# "Once a dog gets the taste of blood" there is no going back?.....



## BernerMax

So there are no training options for this? Dogs chasing and injuring / killing livestock, especially the 1 yr olds....?
I am on a few Forums, and there are apparantly a whole slew of 1 yr old dogs getting shot after the first infraction.

I have seen posted -- once the dog kills, its shot. No second chances. And there are a fair number who believe a dog (mainly the LGD breeds) learn their job thru osmosis (or aparantly telepathy, from the owners' brain)....
I am NOT on an LGD forum (as of yet) and from the few websites I have peeked at, I see that pup should be acclimitized to the livestock, via penning next to them for a while and given correction when it does bother the livestock.... etc.... but not what you do if dog does kill something (easy enough to do when its an 80 lb puppy)....

Is all really lost and their is no chance of salvation?... Saddest thing I just read tonight how the family shot on the spot their two "favorite"dogs-- Boxers -- cause they chased to death 3 calves....first time they had killed but its the family's (and am hearing this alot) there are NO second chances on the farm....
I know people have a right to farm how they will.... but there must be awhole lotta shot dogs out there somewhere....what a waste.... some also said no point in trying to rehome either.....just SSS.
I just wonder if the dog training experts had any useful input to give on these situations and I can pass it on...


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## HollowHeaven

This is one the biggest myths ever told. A dog does not "get the taste of blood" and become obsessed with it. 

Dogs are predators. Most of them, if they can catch it, they will kill it. Some will eat it.

The best course of action is to teach them to leave it alone, and keep the dogs separate from the stock.


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## BernerMax

HollowHeaven said:


> This is one the biggest myths ever told. A dog does not "get the taste of blood" and become obsessed with it.
> 
> Dogs are predators. Most of them, if they can catch it, they will kill it. Some will eat it.
> 
> The best course of action is to teach them to leave it alone, and keep the dogs separate from the stock.


I think thats the inherent problem that novice owners face with acquiring a Livestock Guardian Dog, by concept, they are to be left in with the stock, but it seems people do not understand that it takes training (and by this you need to put sometime into this and understand the dog) to achieve this, especially if dog does not have an older LGD as a mentor....
Not sure about what folks are thinking about killing the family farm dog (pet) when it kills or injures livestock-- just because the dogs are great family pets- it doesnt mean they know not to kill livestock, or that they dont need to be trained not-- its just like the Recall or Leave it command, it needs to be instilled in them as well....


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## PatriciafromCO

That is so sad to hear people are actually killing the dogs .. Lots of individual oopsies over the 14 years of having small livestock. And they all turned out to be just fine around small livestock unsupervised. And it has always taken the effort of learning and exposure with supervision. Never a loss of a dog if they kill something because an unsupervised opportunity was there before they were ready for it.


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## BernerMax

PatriciafromCO said:


> That is so sad to hear people are actually killing the dogs .. Lots of individual oopsies over the 14 years of having small livestock. And they all turned out to be just fine around small livestock unsupervised. And it has always taken the effort of learning and exposure with supervision. Never a loss of a dog if they kill something because an unsupervised opportunity was there before they were ready for it.


Homesteading forums, chicken forums, goat forums-- seems like every 3rd person with a rifle feels the need to kill the dog on first infraction (and quickly the whole thread dissolves into a Right to Arms argument)-- just was hoping the dog enthusiasts would have a reasoned argument for those folks....


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## Willowy

Many farm people like to kill dogs. Or at least they give no indication of disliking it. I hear it every day. There are more dogs shot (or killed in an even worse manner) in this country than those who die in shelters. You can't reason with people like that. It has nothing to do with "the right to bear arms", they're just trigger-happy twits with no respect for an animal's life. They won't rehome to a town home because any dog that kills what you don't want him to kill is "worthless". Yet they expect the dog to kill wild rabbits and raccoons and coyotes, but kill the dog for killing chickens or pet rabbits or sheep. Because dogs magically know the difference :/.


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## luv mi pets

When I had Rottweilers, my female killed a chicken. I know I could have handled it different today but, back then this is what I did. I took the dead chicken and told Rebel she was a naughty girl , a very bad girl, that chickens were a 'LEAVE IT' Now that I was screaming at Rebel and shaking the dead chicken in her face, I doubt Rebel knew what I was really saying. Again ranting that chickens were a Phooy. For the rest of the day, I did not pet or interact with Rebel. Today being a little bit more dog savvy I would go about it differently. What I do know is from that day forward, Rebel never touched another chicken. She would even have little baby chicks on her as their mother scratched the earth nearby. One time she get up from her bed and a baby garter snake was laying underneath her. Rebel turned out to be a very good nurturing dog to any animal that needed love. I am so glad, I did not shoot her. I may have acted like a lunatic that day, but my dog lived a very long life without any more kills on her collar.


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## PatriciafromCO

The whole reason I got all my livestock was because I wanted to see about working with my group of 15 who had not previous introduction to farm animals and knowing some of them were on the wrong side of prey drive for a GSD.. Some guy on a forum with imported working GSD's wouldn't take the time to put up a fence on his property and his dogs in training were constantly getting through the neighbors barbwire fence side and chasing his neighbors cattle causing a huge threatening type throw down between his neighbor and him.. So instead of doing the right thing (put up a solid fence) he used a shock collar to zap the dogs crazy to their knees for going after the cattle or even looking at the cattle... How insane can you get for ruining a dog.. GSD's who are afraid what good is a dog like that ... There was no talking sense into this guy.. So I started adding livestock and working with the dogs who were all different individuals about them. but I used the same approach over and over and over again. And they all did great and were trust worthy , the birds and rabbits were the hardest and there were oopsies, with the birds leaving their areas and jumping fences into the back yard or even jumping into the dogs kennels.. I don't say anything, but dogs don't get to eat what they kill so the meat was given to another dog .. and it was over. Good environment set up, Time, continued supervised interaction and giving the dogs a job during exposure.. Even my strongest prey crazy gsd's who had killed , and the corso who had killed, are able to be trustworthy for having the livestock live with us. So I do find it sad


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## BernerMax

luv mi pets said:


> When I had Rottweilers, my female killed a chicken. I know I could have handled it different today but, back then this is what I did. I took the dead chicken and told Rebel she was a naughty girl , a very bad girl, that chickens were a 'LEAVE IT' Now that I was screaming at Rebel and shaking the dead chicken in her face, I doubt Rebel knew what I was really saying. Again ranting that chickens were a Phooy. For the rest of the day, I did not pet or interact with Rebel. Today being a little bit more dog savvy I would go about it differently. What I do know is from that day forward, Rebel never touched another chicken. She would even have little baby chicks on her as their mother scratched the earth nearby. One time she get up from her bed and a baby garter snake was laying underneath her. Rebel turned out to be a very good nurturing dog to any animal that needed love. I am so glad, I did not shoot her. I may have acted like a lunatic that day, but my dog lived a very long life without any more kills on her collar.


Yeah I am not saying I havent done the same with my schnauzer gal (I was actually just freaking out she killed my favorite Roo and my favorite Hen, so upset) and eventually she got it.... and just for insurance I still put her little mini tire on her when I want to sleep in a cannot supervise her outside...

Willowy- x2. what you said rings, very , very true. ...


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## BernerMax

Oh right PatriciafromCO, I was wondering what to do with the dead (so far ,) chicken-- I hate wasting it but it doesnt feel right to feed it to the offender... that is a good idea. And Yes I see all the time people reccomending to use a ecollar and Zap the heck outa the dog...


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## PatriciafromCO

just for the experience, I exposed the dogs to as many situations as I could especially since I have the smaller livestock to feed to the dogs so they do get to eat them when I kill them and hand them to the dogs.. They smart enough to learn the rules if they know the rules to follow. and they still able to be confident to go search out and kill wild rabbits/mice in the barns and on the property and are really good at it. No is not a good answer when there is a part of the behavior or the behavior you want to be able to use in the future from the dogs.


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## BernerMax

No worries, the giant schnauzer (and the 3 cats ) have pretty much wiped out our small vermin, she of all the dogs is such a ratter! 
I havent seen a rabbit (or carcass) since last spring...
Still working on the ability to butcher....as we are going to have a few goat kids next year... and it sure would be handy to have some fresh meat on hand...


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## luv mi pets

I think that the biggest help factor is time. I have noticed that between puppyhood and adulthood, something clicks in the brain. No longer thinking everything is a chase game but they get serious about their job. My adult Anatolian gets perturbed with the younger dog who thinks playtime is all the time. She will actually stand between the herd and the younger Anatolian cross to grumble at him. He soon mellows and then all is well. His playtime antics are getting less and less with maturity.

As far as giving the dogs the carcass, I did not do this. I did not want them to have any idea what chicken taste like. This part is controversial and each side brings a good fight to the table. My chickens were more for the kids than they were for meat. We did enjoy the fresh eggs but the whole butcher thing I could not do. The last thing I wanted to hear was a dog crunching on bones that belonged to a chicken that had a name.


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## MountainDogs

I think you already got some awesome tips. I just wanted to add that for me this has been one of the reasons why I don't post on homesteadingtoday.com and a couple of other similar forums anymore.
Too many posters on there are just downright cruel to their animals and are simply not interested in learning more about LGD's or just dogs in general.
They think they know it best, they call people they don't agree with names like "tree-huggers" and there's just not talking to people like that.

For whatever reason they don't want to understand that it takes time, patience, effort and knowledge to rear your dog so it doesn't tries to chase, hurt or even kill your livestock/poultry.
Especially for the first 18 months or so, the owner should never leave their young dogs unsupervised with livestock/poultry.
For the majority of dogs (even LGD breeds), it is particularly hard to teach them not to chase chicken and other poultry. 
But it can be done, even if the dog has chased poultry in the past. And the lower the prey drive in the dog, the easier this will be to accomplish.
Some dogs from some high prey driven breeds can never be left alone with livestock/poultry unsupervised. 
Which is one of the reasons why it is always advised to only get a purebred LGD or an LGD x LGD cross to guard one's farm animals, but never a LGD crossed with non-LGD breed. 
And the other reason for this is because LGD breeds have the strength and the confidence to confront large predators, plus they have the instinct and they are equipped to stay with livestock/poultry at all times.
But again, even if one gets the right breed from proved, working parents, they still have to invest a lot of time for the first 18 to 24 months in training their future LGD.
I always say: Nothing good in life comes easy & There is no quick fix.

Btw, you may find these 2 links very helpful for when you talk to people on those forums again:

http://www.hobbyfarms.com/farm-pets/pet-dog-information/rehabilitating-livestock-guardian-dogs.aspx

http://www.anatoliandog.org/poultry.htm


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## luv mi pets

mountain dogs -very good reads- thank you.


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## MountainDogs

Thanks luv mi pets!
LGD world needs more of these knowledgeable and reasonable type of texts.


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## BernerMax

MountainDogs said:


> Thanks luv mi pets!
> LGD world needs more of these knowledgeable and reasonable type of texts.


Yes thanks Mountaindogs- I will go back to the Forums with your articles! (our pup is a great pyr- anatolian cross, from working parents and born in a field full of goats, btw, but he is also our farm dog/ family pet(?)....


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## surlys_mom

I know this is a serious question, but I just have to share that when we first got our dog and she was a puppy, she nipped a bit too hard and drew some blood. I asked my husband if it was dangerous that she had gotten a "taste of blood" and he laughed at me and asked if I was living in the 1800s.


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## MountainDogs

BernerMax said:


> Yes thanks Mountaindogs- I will go back to the Forums with your articles! (our pup is a great pyr- anatolian cross, from working parents and born in a field full of goats, btw, but he is also our farm dog/ family pet(?)....


And that is really great, but sadly there are tons of people in LGD world who'll claim that if you socialize your LGD and let it enter your house it won't guard your animals anymore.
Somehow the dog will get ruined lol.
That is just one of the biggest myths out there and has done a lot of damage. 
Because there are a lot of farmers who think you should never handle, touch or socialize your LGD's. So they raise these semi-feral dogs, it's really sad.
It has been proven and shown time, after time again that these breeds are so intelligent and well capable of guarding their families and the farm animals at the same time. 
Especially when one lives on rather small(er) acreage.


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## luv mi pets

My problem is that yes, I let my LGD into the house and take them to dog affairs, parks, stores, and wherever but, if my dogs are with me or in the house they can not keep out the creatures they are supposed to keep out. 

Mowgli who is a Gr Pyr/Anatolian cross is a great car rider and very mellow in the stores. He is also the one that does the best at patrolling his boundaries. Throughout the night, I can hear him all over the place barking. I do not correct him from this because I know that is in his blood to do this. I will go out at night and will hear the coyotes in the field behind and on the side of our property so I know he is not out there just barking to bark. He truly is an ambassador on how a LGD dog is to act like.


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## MountainDogs

Mowgli sounds like an awesome guardian.

I think this depends a lot on the setting.
If someone has a rather smaller farm (say 2-5 acres), a secure barn/chicken coop etc, and several LGD's, then I would say it is easily doable to rotate the dogs and take a different dog places to socialize them and allow them into the house every now and then.
Most farmers never allow their LGD's into the house. And I don't think this is a big deal, however it does bother me when I read people advising new LGD owners not to handle, touch or socialize their LGD's.

This then results in dogs that can not be approached, not even by their owners. 
I have lost count of how many times I've heard about owners saying they can not brush their LGD's, clean their ears, attend to their wounds etc.
Or they say they want to sell them, but since they are feral so to speak, no one wants to buy them. So they end up being thrown in shelters where they are put down.

In my opinion, every dog needs some basic training and socialization. The dog has to be able to be taken to the vet and tolerate a car ride etc.
And the owner has to be capable of attending to their dog when needed.
Especially in this day and age where not that many people live very remotely anymore.


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## luv mi pets

Every dog that I own learns that crates are okay and I will be able to put a muzzle on you, touch your feet and look in your mouth. This has to do with more of my job than my dog's job. Your last paragraph sums it up pretty good. I can not count the number of times I have heard owners say they can not put a muzzle or even put a leash over their dog's head without being scared of getting bit by their own dog. Also, if for some reason that dog has to be hospitalized, the dog who has been in a crate is a lot easier to handle than a dog who freaks out that it is in a cage.


Both of my LGD are well social dogs that protect their property from creatures who try to enter the property. I think this makes for a better guardian dog than a feral dog.


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## MountainDogs

Great post luv mi pets, I completely agree.


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