# How to find a good breeder?



## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm obviously new here, but happy to find a place where I can ask all my dog questions to people who will be able to answer me!  I'm looking to get my first dog of my own, and I'm interested in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. However, I know they have a lot of health problems (trust me, I've done my research!) and I'm just wondering how to find out if a breeder is good or not. I've tried to do research on this too, but I've read conflicting things and not all the places I've checked out have the negative OR positive indicators. I live in Syracuse, NY and I've spoken to a local breeder who seems good, but her dogs are way out of my price range. (I know, a good, healthy pup is worth any price, but the reality is that I'm only 21 years old and don't have that kind of money!) We have a family friend who got a dog from a breeder in Ohio who raves about the place, about how great the women there are and how good their dogs are. The only problem is, the dog our friend has is a Cockalier, and as I actually found this board by searching Cockaliers and reading how you guys said that good breeders would never mix breeds, I don't know what to think! If someone could help me out, that would be AMAZING. Thank you so much!


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## cavaliermom (May 28, 2008)

Good afternoon - finding a good breeder is not easy - one way is to buy a copy of Dog World or Dog Fancy magazine - which are usually available where magazines are sold. Another way is to go on AKC (American Kennel Club) website and check out breed clubs in your area - AKC won't recommend a breeder, but they do have names and phone numbers of various breed clubs. Another way is to attend a dog show in your area. And, lastly if you don't mind getting a little older Cavalier, go to Cavalier Rescue USA - they have 4 or 5 area organizations and always have nice dogs for adoption - they have been vet checked and the fosters could tell you all about the dog's temperament. 
i got my Cavalier as a 2 year old from a breeder - my dog is under sized (11 lbs) and the breeder had bred her once and she only had 2 pups. So she was looking for a home for her - I got her for a very reasonable price and love her very much. she is in agility classes, she is cute as a bug and has that sweet Cavalier personality. She does not have a heart murmur but does have a light case of Syringiomylia - those are the two big health issues with Cavaliers. My dog is not on meds and her health is good - she gets a little "attack" no more than 1 every 3-4 months and I just stretch her neck until the spasm passes. There isn't anything medically that you can do with Syringiomylia - and the only way to prove its existence is by a MRI - Some Cavaliers have it very bad and are in constant pain. So be careful that you get a healthy pooch. Hope this info helps.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

cavaliermom said:


> Good afternoon - finding a good breeder is not easy - one way is to buy a copy of Dog World or Dog Fancy magazine - which are usually available where magazines are sold. Another way is to go on AKC (American Kennel Club) website and check out breed clubs in your area - AKC won't recommend a breeder, but they do have names and phone numbers of various breed clubs. Another way is to attend a dog show in your area. And, lastly if you don't mind getting a little older Cavalier, go to Cavalier Rescue USA - they have 4 or 5 area organizations and always have nice dogs for adoption - they have been vet checked and the fosters could tell you all about the dog's temperament.
> i got my Cavalier as a 2 year old from a breeder - my dog is under sized (11 lbs) and the breeder had bred her once and she only had 2 pups. So she was looking for a home for her - I got her for a very reasonable price and love her very much. she is in agility classes, she is cute as a bug and has that sweet Cavalier personality. She does not have a heart murmur but does have a light case of Syringiomylia - those are the two big health issues with Cavaliers. My dog is not on meds and her health is good - she gets a little "attack" no more than 1 every 3-4 months and I just stretch her neck until the spasm passes. There isn't anything medically that you can do with Syringiomylia - and the only way to prove its existence is by a MRI - Some Cavaliers have it very bad and are in constant pain. So be careful that you get a healthy pooch. Hope this info helps.


Thank you so much for your reply! I've looked at the breeders in my area and I wish the breed clubs had ratings of the breeders! The woman I first talked too was very knowledgeable and told us of a bad breeder in the area -- sure enough, she's on the CKCS club site! So it's unfortunate that someone like that could be registered a 'breeder referral', sigh. I've looked at the rescue and there haven't been any relatively close to me that would fit into my family's lifestyle. 

How lucky you were to get an older pup from the breeder! She sounds absolutely adorable. Honestly, I would love if something like that were to happen to me, but I've looked at shelters and rescues and have found no Cavaliers around here or in the local areas -- and I've been looking for months now! I've read a lot of horror stories about Syringiomylia, that it's absolutely terminal and that if your pup has it, that's the beginning of the end for the dog, so how nice to read that yours is managed with it! Is it really very common? I've read that an alarmingly high percentage of Cavaliers get it, but it seems like too high of a percentage for such a terrible disease! Again, thank you SO much for all your help!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Cavaliers do have a terribly high incidence of health problems. Even when they're from good breeders. In that case I MIGHT not totally dismiss someone who is outcrossing to Cockers, if they do all the right testing and have a good reason for it (not just because cute little "designer" mix pups sell well). You'd need to talk to the breeders to get a good handle on what they're trying to accomplish with their breeding, what they're doing to reduce disease, and just in general whether he/she is the type of breeder you feel you can support.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Cavaliers do have a terribly high incidence of health problems. Even when they're from good breeders. In that case I MIGHT not totally dismiss someone who is outcrossing to Cockers, if they do all the right testing and have a good reason for it (not just because cute little "designer" mix pups sell well). You'd need to talk to the breeders to get a good handle on what they're trying to accomplish with their breeding, what they're doing to reduce disease, and just in general whether he/she is the type of breeder you feel you can support.


I know and I wish that weren't the case! But I'm certainly looking into pet insurance -- I would much rather pay $30 or so a month rather than the vet bills that might show up! But that is definitely good advice, thank you for telling me that! I'll definitely ask when I get in touch with them. I know that the dog our family friend has is a healthy little pup, and all the testimonials on the website seem excellent, I just get nervous when I read all the negative things about breeders who cross breed. So thank you for this!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't see ANY reason to support people cross-breeding. It serves NO purpose and just adds to the overpopulation of the pet world. 

Please, stay FAR away from any breeder that mixes. Rescue or adopt instead, that can be cheaper, and you can often times still get a purebred dog without supporting backyard breeders.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I don't see ANY reason to support people cross-breeding. It serves NO purpose and just adds to the overpopulation of the pet world.
> 
> Please, stay FAR away from any breeder that mixes. Rescue or adopt instead, that can be cheaper, and you can often times still get a purebred dog without supporting backyard breeders.


Thank you for your advice! I just am genuinely curious, not trying to be ignorant or anything! But why is cross breeding so horrible? My family has a dog that is an American Eskimo/Australian Shepherd mix that we rescued and he's an amazing, healthy dog! He does have some temperament issues because he was abused before we got him, but there's nothing wrong with him, knock on wood. Are ALL breeders who cross breed backyard breeders? I don't know how much research our family friends did, only that they had a purebred Cocker before their Cockaliers, who had an insane amount of health issues and they spent $26,000 in vet bills over the 12 years they had him! I do know they have one Cockalier from a very bad breeder, who is a good dog but was taken from her mother too early, but the one they got from the place in question seems to be a healthy, good dog. I'm not trying to defend this breeder, honestly! This is my first experience looking into a breeder rather than a rescue and I just want to know why it's so bad when I know personally that the dog I've met from there is a healthy dog. I'm sorry if I come across defensive or anything, that isn't my intention at all! And thank you for the advice!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

matedaalma said:


> Thank you for your advice! I just am genuinely curious, not trying to be ignorant or anything! But why is cross breeding so horrible? My family has a dog that is an American Eskimo/Australian Shepherd mix that we rescued and he's an amazing, healthy dog! He does have some temperament issues because he was abused before we got him, but there's nothing wrong with him, knock on wood. Are ALL breeders who cross breed backyard breeders? I don't know how much research our family friends did, only that they had a purebred Cocker before their Cockaliers, who had an insane amount of health issues and they spent $26,000 in vet bills over the 12 years they had him! I do know they have one Cockalier from a very bad breeder, who is a good dog but was taken from her mother too early, but the one they got from the place in question seems to be a healthy, good dog. I'm not trying to defend this breeder, honestly! This is my first experience looking into a breeder rather than a rescue and I just want to know why it's so bad when I know personally that the dog I've met from there is a healthy dog. I'm sorry if I come across defensive or anything, that isn't my intention at all! And thank you for the advice!


It's not that dogs that are mixes are bad, it's the way that they were bred and the circumstances. Breeding responsibly should only be done to further the breed, and you cannot do that to a mixed breed that has no standard to go by, no health testing to live up to, and that cannot be shown. This means they aren't fulfilling anything except to be born and have high chances of ending up in the shelter because 99% of backyard breeders have no contracts or ways to make sure their dogs stay out of the shelters. Yes, all breeders that will cross two breeds are backyard breeders. A good breeder breeds to give something to the breed. They breed truely good specimens that look the way the breed is supposed to, are healthy (through legitimate health testing) and have stable temperments. They have health guarantees and contracts reliquinshing the pup back to them if the owner cannot care for it. 

Basically, if the dog can't be registered, it's parents aren't health tested and titled in performance events for their breed or conformation, you should not be buying. It just encourages the backyard breeders who are making money to continue breeding misrepresentations of breeds or mixes, that could have tons of unknown health issues, temperment issues, and may very well end up in a shelter to be euthanized. Adopting a mutt is perfectly okay, because it is SAVING one, and opening up space in that shelter to rescue another, therefore supporting dog rescues.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> It's not that dogs that are mixes are bad, it's the way that they were bred and the circumstances. Breeding responsibly should only be done to further the breed, and you cannot do that to a mixed breed that has no standard to go by, no health testing to live up to, and that cannot be shown. This means they aren't fulfilling anything except to be born and have high chances of ending up in the shelter because 99% of backyard breeders have no contracts or ways to make sure their dogs stay out of the shelters. Yes, all breeders that will cross two breeds are backyard breeders. A good breeder breeds to give something to the breed. They breed truely good specimens that look the way the breed is supposed to, are healthy (through legitimate health testing) and have stable temperments. They have health guarantees and contracts reliquinshing the pup back to them if the owner cannot care for it.
> 
> Basically, if the dog can't be registered, it's parents aren't health tested and titled in performance events for their breed or conformation, you should not be buying. It just encourages the backyard breeders who are making money to continue breeding misrepresentations of breeds or mixes, that could have tons of unknown health issues, temperment issues, and may very well end up in a shelter to be euthanized. Adopting a mutt is perfectly okay, because it is SAVING one, and opening up space in that shelter to rescue another, therefore supporting dog rescues.


Thank you so much for answering this, it means a lot to me. I honestly have no idea how to tell whether or not a breeder is good other than going by what the lady we spoke with told us, so I'm glad I found this forum to ask! I do have another question though, if you don't mind answering. I read on a website that any breeder that charges different prices for males and females is a bad breeder, and I was wondering if that was true since it seems like every single breeder I've seen in my area and the surrounding states charge differently for the two, even the place that I'm sure is a good breeder! I also read that if there are a lot of pictures with the pups and their 'happy owners' on their website, that's a bad sign as well. I don't quite get that as I would be pleased to see lots of happy people with their puppies, plus the sites I've seen with those sections keep updated on the dogs, showing pictures of them as they get older that have been sent to them by the owners, which I read is a GOOD sign if they keep up with you! So many conflicting things, haha! It's just all very complicated for someone who hasn't gone through the process before!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

matedaalma said:


> Thank you so much for answering this, it means a lot to me. I honestly have no idea how to tell whether or not a breeder is good other than going by what the lady we spoke with told us, so I'm glad I found this forum to ask! I do have another question though, if you don't mind answering. I read on a website that any breeder that charges different prices for males and females is a bad breeder, and I was wondering if that was true since it seems like every single breeder I've seen in my area and the surrounding states charge differently for the two, even the place that I'm sure is a good breeder! I also read that if there are a lot of pictures with the pups and their 'happy owners' on their website, that's a bad sign as well. I don't quite get that as I would be pleased to see lots of happy people with their puppies, plus the sites I've seen with those sections keep updated on the dogs, showing pictures of them as they get older that have been sent to them by the owners, which I read is a GOOD sign if they keep up with you! So many conflicting things, haha! It's just all very complicated for someone who hasn't gone through the process before!


No problem. Personally, it could go either way for either issue you're having and it wouldn't make a difference, really. Most breeders WILL charge a different fee for males/females and for PET quality vs. SHOW quality, but that's just the way it goes. There's nothing wrong with it and it's widely accepted. I'm looking at australian shepherds for example right now and I talked to a breeder that had three show prospects that she though would suit me. The boys were 1k and 1.5k, the girl was 2k. Probably because she can have puppies and you can get more from a litter of puppies than a stud fee. I also see no issue with the picture thing. I rely heavily on the information on the websites though, not the setup. I look for health testing, titles, guarantees, and contracts.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> No problem. Personally, it could go either way for either issue you're having and it wouldn't make a difference, really. Most breeders WILL charge a different fee for males/females and for PET quality vs. SHOW quality, but that's just the way it goes. There's nothing wrong with it and it's widely accepted. I'm looking at australian shepherds for example right now and I talked to a breeder that had three show prospects that she though would suit me. The boys were 1k and 1.5k, the girl was 2k. Probably because she can have puppies and you can get more from a litter of puppies than a stud fee. I also see no issue with the picture thing. I rely heavily on the information on the websites though, not the setup. I look for health testing, titles, guarantees, and contracts.


You have been so helpful!  That was what I thought and was a little surprised when I read it was a sign of a bad breeder, so I didn't quite know what to think! I think I'm just overanalyzing and reading *too* much, and freaking myself out a little in the process! But yes, I agree with the information thing too, I definitely look for all that! I was just wondering if the pictures were a bad thing as an extra. Thank you sooo much for answering my questions! It means a lot! Hopefully with this information now, I can find a good breeder, haha!


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> It's not that dogs that are mixes are bad, it's the way that they were bred and the circumstances. *Breeding responsibly should only be done to further the breed,*


According to who?



DJEtzel said:


> and you cannot do that to a mixed breed that has no standard to go by, no health testing to live up to, and that cannot be shown.


And if a mixed breed breeder has valid health records for the dam and sire?




DJEtzel said:


> This means they aren't fulfilling anything except to be born and have high chances of ending up in the shelter because 99% of backyard breeders have no contracts or ways to make sure their dogs stay out of the shelters. Yes, all breeders that will cross two breeds are backyard breeders. A good breeder breeds to give something to the breed. *They breed truely good specimens that look the way the breed is supposed to, are healthy (through legitimate health testing) and have stable temperments. They have health guarantees and contracts reliquinshing the pup back to them if the owner cannot care for it. *


I was able to purchase a mixed breed dog born from a healthy sire and dam, with a stable temperment, and with a three year health guarantee. Everything you mention except for a clause in a contract to relinguish the pup back to the owner in the event the pup couldn't be cared for. 




DJEtzel said:


> Basically, if the dog can't be registered, it's parents aren't health tested and titled in performance events for their breed or conformation, you should not be buying. It just encourages the backyard breeders who are making money to continue breeding misrepresentations of breeds or mixes, that could have tons of unknown health issues, temperment issues, and may very well end up in a shelter to be euthanized. Adopting a mutt is perfectly okay, because it is SAVING one, and opening up space in that shelter to rescue another, therefore supporting dog rescues.


For my pet purchasing needs I didn't see the value in requiring the parents to be tested and titled in performance events. Hypoallergenic, wouldn't bark, intelligent, good temperament, health gaurantee.. those were my requirements. 6 months into being the owner of a shih-poo and everything I was told has come to pass.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Root thats horrible that your breeder didn't make you sign a contract to give her back the dog in the case you can no longer care for it! That is one of the WORST things a breeder can not-do. And it's a shame you see no value in breed specific activities. I personally think that a breeder of Shih tzu mixes should be doing therapy or obedience work with their dogs to get them evaluated by non biased third parties, they should also be testing for luxating patella and getting their breeding dogs CERF tested yearly. I'm not against Companion mixes, but I am against doing it the cheap way just to increase the breeders profit.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Root said:


> According to who?


Responsible pet owners




> And if a mixed breed breeder has valid health records for the dam and sire?


I don't care about health records(well, I do, but that's not important), I want OFA, CERF, etc. etc. No breeder would health test then cross breed that has any common sense. 



> I was able to purchase a mixed breed dog born from a healthy sire and dam, with a stable temperment, and with a three year health guarantee. Everything you mention except for a clause in a contract to relinguish the pup back to the owner in the event the pup couldn't be cared for.


Okay, well that contract is a very big deal. That's saying the "breeder" has no care where the pups end up. They have no care if they die in a shelter or not, and don't care about the breeds they're breeding. And how do you know that the dam and sire were healthy if they were not shown to the best of their potential and health tested? 



> For my pet purchasing needs I didn't see the value in requiring the parents to be tested and titled in performance events. Hypoallergenic, wouldn't bark, intelligent, good temperament, health gaurantee.. those were my requirements. 6 months into being the owner of a shih-poo and everything I was told has come to pass.


Many people don't, unfortunately, and it's a shame. No dog is hypo-allergenic, btw, and all dogs will and can bark.  Too bad you don't care that you're supporting someone who is purposely breeding dogs to die in shelters for no reason. They aren't proving any worth at all. They're just out for money, they don't care about the dogs.



matedaalma said:


> You have been so helpful!  That was what I thought and was a little surprised when I read it was a sign of a bad breeder, so I didn't quite know what to think! I think I'm just overanalyzing and reading *too* much, and freaking myself out a little in the process! But yes, I agree with the information thing too, I definitely look for all that! I was just wondering if the pictures were a bad thing as an extra. Thank you sooo much for answering my questions! It means a lot! Hopefully with this information now, I can find a good breeder, haha!


No problem, and good luck! I'm glad you came here and got the correct information before going off like Roots apparently did and supporting a backyard breeder by paying money for a purposely bred mutt.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Have you read anything about the health problems Cavaliers face? Many responsible Cav people support outcrossing to Cockers (or other small spaniels), to try to reduce the incidence of these horrible problems. Which is why I say, if they've done the health testing, and are breeding with a goal in mind, I don't think it's a bad thing in this limited case.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Have you read anything about the health problems Cavaliers face? Many responsible Cav people support outcrossing to Cockers (or other small spaniels), to try to reduce the incidence of these horrible problems. Which is why I say, if they've done the health testing, and are breeding with a goal in mind, I don't think it's a bad thing in this limited case.


I have read a lot about their health issues, but I don't support outcrossing, and I don't think responsible Cav breeders should either. How about work on getting safe, clean lines in there, instead of mixing them with another breed so that they can't even be shown to prove anything anyway?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not going to argue with you about Cavaliers. I don't really know enough about it. BUT, I believe that if it were possible to fix the breed without outcrossing, the breeders would have done it already. There are no safe, clean lines left.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I'm not going to argue with you about Cavaliers. I don't really know enough about it. BUT, I believe that if it were possible to fix the breed without outcrossing, the breeders would have done it already. There are no safe, clean lines left.


I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes or get into anything here, but I definitely agree with this. I've read on many, many different Cavalier websites that there aren't clean lines left, which is so sad for the poor puppies.  I'm already highly aware of the fact that it's probably going to have to take more trips to the vet than our family dog to keep it as healthy as possible, but I'm prepared for that. I'm not saying anyone is wrong on anything they say, just that the part about clean lines, from what I've read, is true. (But if a Cavalier expert knows otherwise, then I'm happy to learn that!)


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Responsible pet owners


I consider myself a responsible pet owner and I disagree with your opinions.



DJEtzel said:


> I don't care about health records(well, I do, but that's not important), I want OFA, CERF, etc. etc. No breeder would health test then cross breed that has any common sense.


If I were to purchase a purebred dog I'd probably look into purchasing a dog whose parents were CERF registered knowing that purebred dogs tend to have heritable problems because they're bred within a closed gene pool. I'm more interested in the health records.




DJEtzel said:


> Okay, well that contract is a very big deal. That's saying the "breeder" has no care where the pups end up. They have no care if they die in a shelter or not, and don't care about the breeds they're breeding. And how do you know that the dam and sire were healthy if they were not shown to the best of their potential and health tested?


I know the dam and sire are healthy because they have valid health records. It's enough for me to know that a vet signed off on the health of the parents. I'm just not that concerned whether performance event judges co-signed and I don't believe that makes me an irresponsible pet owner.




DJEtzel said:


> Many people don't, unfortunately, and it's a shame. No dog is hypo-allergenic, btw, and all dogs will and can bark.  Too bad you don't care that you're supporting someone who is purposely breeding dogs to die in shelters for no reason. They aren't proving any worth at all. They're just out for money, they don't care about the dogs.


I'm allergic to every animal under the sun that has fur.. I'm not allergic to my shih-poo. If I were I'd be sneezing and having asthma attacks. 

I supported a breeder who's been in the business for 30 years and has numerous vet and customer referrals.



DJEtzel said:


> No problem, and good luck! I'm glad you came here and got the correct information before going off like Roots apparently did and supporting a backyard breeder by paying money for a purposely bred mutt.


"Going off" 

I disagreed with your opinion based on my experience.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Root said:


> I supported a breeder who's been in the business for 30 years and has numerous vet and customer referrals.


Unfortunately, this means nothing. Most vets don't know what makes a good breeder, and you've proved that most common pet owners don't know either. 



> I disagreed with your opinion based on my experience.


I disagree with you based on MY experience. Thanks, but most of this isn't opinion anyway. I just don't understand how you can support a backyard breeder that doesn't care about the dogs. 

But, this is obviously a dumb battle with you, so I'm not argueing. I hope you rethink your options and choose the better one next time.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Root said:


> I know the dam and sire are healthy because they have valid health records. It's enough for me to know that a vet signed off on the health of the parents. I'm just not that concerned whether performance event judges co-signed and I don't believe that makes me an irresponsible pet owner.


I am all for cross breeding but this is just too mcuh, You have WAY too much faith in the ability of vets to lable a dog healthy with an office visit. Vets need to take X-rays and in some cases draw blood and do cardio tests. And Mutts are no healthier than purebreds in general, yes Cavis ARE more unhealthy than the average mutt English Bulldogs are more unhealthy too, but breeds like Canaans, border collies, ect. are more healthy than an average mutt. There are tons of unhealthy mutts out there and there are tons of unhealthy purebreds out there. But not doing health testing just because your going to breed mutts ISN'T an excuse, someone breeding mutts should be just as careful about their breedings as somone breeding military Malinois.

There is no way to save the Cavi breed as it currently is, it NEEDS to be outcrossed to other healthy breeds.


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Unfortunately, this means nothing. Most vets don't know what makes a good breeder, and you've proved that most common pet owners don't know either.


We're going in circles.. I mostly care that the vet signed off on two healthy parents. If he also gives the breeder a good referral then I'll take that as well. 



DJEtzel said:


> I disagree with you based on MY experience. Thanks, but most of this isn't opinion anyway. I just don't understand how you can support a backyard breeder that doesn't care about the dogs.


Which part isn't opinion? Your contention that responsible pet owners only support pure bred dog breeders? Or your contention that pure bred dog registries mean more than valid health records? Or your contention that only pure bred dog breeders test for health and breed good specimens? Sorry but all of that is most definately your opinion. 



DJEtzel said:


> But, this is obviously a dumb battle with you, so I'm not argueing. I hope you rethink your options and choose the better one next time.


You're entitled to make your own purchasing choices but I hope you rethink pushing your opinions off on other people.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Keechak said:


> There is no way to save the Cavi breed as it currently is, it NEEDS to be outcrossed to other healthy breeds.


This would be ruining the breed as it stands though too, correct? It seems like a lose-lose situation, why not just drop the breed? I know it sounds terrible, but breeders did this to them, and now they have to suffer the consequences of them not existing anymore. There goes human interference for ya.



Root said:


> We're going in circles.. I mostly care that the vet signed off on two healthy parents. If he also gives the breeder a good referral then I'll take that as well.


Like Keechak said, you rely too heavily on the vet. The vet can see the dog's not dieing, but that's it. He can't see that the dog has hip dysplasia, a terrible temperment, allergies, ear issues, bad joints, heart disease, or anything else. This PROVES nothing in the quality of the dog. 



> Which part isn't opinion? Your contention that responsible pet owners only support pure bred dog breeders? Or your contention that pure bred dog registries mean more than valid health records? Or your contention that only pure bred dog breeders test for health and breed good specimens? Sorry but all of that is most definately your opinion.


More like my contention that responsible pet owners do NOT support backyard breeders. Otherwise, they'd be irresponsible. That's just how it is in the dog world, you need to get used to it. 

[quote[
You're entitled to make your own purchasing choices but I hope you rethink pushing your opinions off on other people.[/QUOTE]

I won't when I know I'm right, sorry.


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

Keechak said:


> I am all for cross breeding but this is just too mcuh, You have WAY too much faith in the ability of vets to lable a dog healthy with an office visit. Vets need to take X-rays and in some cases draw blood and do cardio tests. And Mutts are no healthier than purebreds in general, yes Cavis ARE more unhealthy than the average mutt English Bulldogs are more unhealthy too, but breeds like Canaans, border collies, ect.  are more healthy than an average mutt. There are tons of unhealthy mutts out there and there are tons of unhealthy purebreds out there. But not doing health testing just because your going to breed mutts ISN'T an excuse, someone breeding mutts should be just as careful about their breedings as somone breeding military Malinois.
> 
> There is no way to save the Cavi breed as it currently is, it NEEDS to be outcrossed to other healthy breeds.


I put my faith in a combination of vet records, years in business, referrals and people I know personally who have purchased from the same breeder. Their dog is 6 years old and healthy.. still waiting for the other shoe to drop.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Root said:


> I put my faith in a combination of vet records, years in business, referrals and people I know personally who have purchased from the same breeder. Their dog is 6 years old and healthy.. still waiting for the other shoe to drop.


Have you tracked the other puppies from the same litter down to see how they're doing? My guess would be that at least half are dead from the gas chamber in a local Animal Control. One dog's apparent health does not mean a thing. When that dog has been shown to meet breed standard and be a true representation of the breed, and has been health tested CLEAR of any issues, I'll believe that maybe the breeder's doing something right. Until you can prove that dog is healthy though, no way.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> This would be ruining the breed as it stands though too, correct? It seems like a lose-lose situation, why not just drop the breed? I know it sounds terrible, but breeders did this to them, and now they have to suffer the consequences of them not existing anymore. There goes human interference for ya.


Ruining the breed? I don't know if you can ruin it any more, other than risking it's wonderful temperament I don't see what else there is to lose. The first few generations may not be Cavaliers but after a few generations the difference would be impossible to tell except, if done right, the new Cavi's would be healthier.

Ever hear of the LUA Dalmations?


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Like Keechak said, you rely too heavily on the vet. The vet can see the dog's not dieing, but that's it. He can't see that the dog has hip dysplasia, a terrible temperment, allergies, ear issues, bad joints, heart disease, or anything else. This PROVES nothing in the quality of the dog.


Then hopefully I won't have any reason to use my pup's 3 year health guarantee. 



DJEtzel said:


> More like my contention that responsible pet owners do NOT support backyard breeders. Otherwise, they'd be irresponsible. That's just how it is in the dog world, you need to get used to it.


Sounds like dogma to me.



DJEtzel said:


> I won't when I know I'm right, sorry.


You'd probably be more persuasive otherwise.. but do as you wish.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

Since we're talking about health and vets and the like, I just have another quick question. We took the family dog to the vet yesterday and my mom mentioned to him that I was looking for a Cavalier. He said they were great dogs, but obviously that they had a lot of health problems, and he said that before you commit to buying a dog, you should take it to the vet and make sure it's healthy. Now forgive me if I'm being paranoid, but if I were a breeder, I wouldn't let people take my puppies to the vet before they bought it, what if they ran off with it? Is that standard, what he told us? Also, if the vet doesn't check for hip dysplasia and things like that, how can you really be sure the puppy is healthy? One more quick thing, I was poking around in other threads and I saw mentioned that you shouldn't let your dog walk on public floors until it has its vaccines. Does that mean you can't take them on walks until then either? We have an almost full fenced in yard, but there's one wall that isn't and I would never let my Cavalier run around the yard like that. I just would want to be sure he was getting exercise!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Keechak said:


> Ruining the breed? I don't know if you can ruin it any more, other than risking it's wonderful temperament I don't see what else there is to lose. The first few generations may not be Cavaliers but after a few generations the difference would be impossible to tell except, if done right, the new Cavi's would be healthier.
> 
> Ever hear of the LUA Dalmations?


Right, I understand that, but would they every be considered pure Cavs again? If there's no way to get them registered, I guess I don't understand going to such lengths for a breed that won't exist... 

And no, I haven't...



matedaalma said:


> Since we're talking about health and vets and the like, I just have another quick question. We took the family dog to the vet yesterday and my mom mentioned to him that I was looking for a Cavalier. He said they were great dogs, but obviously that they had a lot of health problems, and he said that before you commit to buying a dog, you should take it to the vet and make sure it's healthy. Now forgive me if I'm being paranoid, but if I were a breeder, I wouldn't let people take my puppies to the vet before they bought it, what if they ran off with it? Is that standard, what he told us? Also, if the vet doesn't check for hip dysplasia and things like that, how can you really be sure the puppy is healthy? One more quick thing, I was poking around in other threads and I saw mentioned that you shouldn't let your dog walk on public floors until it has its vaccines. Does that mean you can't take them on walks until then either? We have an almost full fenced in yard, but there's one wall that isn't and I would never let my Cavalier run around the yard like that. I just would want to be sure he was getting exercise!


No, breeders will not let you take their pup to the vet before you buy. It's in most contracts that you have to take them within so many days though to make sure that it is healthy, and a gaurantee will take over if it's not. 

For Hip Dysplasia, eye problems, patellas, etc. You would have your vet do X-rays (or whatever the specific test called for) of the part of the body. (for example, on German Shepherds you ALWAYS test for Hip dysplasia, so you would have your vet xray hips and elbows for elbow dysplasia.) Then your vet sends the test or xrays off to a place like OFA (for hip/elbow xrays, stands for the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and the organization reviews the xrays or tests and RATES them. So a dog could be rated having Fair, Good, Excellent, Poor, etc hips. This is where a breeder would decide not to breed anything less than a Good generally, and this can also tell you about how your pet dog's hips or elbows are looking. 

You're correct about vaccinations and walks. NO contact with the ground on public property until all shots are done or he could be at risk for a deadly disease (parvo). You can excersize him on a long lead in your yard, or in your house until then. Make sure you're still taking the pup out to be socialized though- just hold it so that it stills gets the sights, sounds, smells, but doesn't contract anything from the ground.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

matedaalma said:


> Since we're talking about health and vets and the like, I just have another quick question. We took the family dog to the vet yesterday and my mom mentioned to him that I was looking for a Cavalier. He said they were great dogs, but obviously that they had a lot of health problems, and he said that before you commit to buying a dog, you should take it to the vet and make sure it's healthy. Now forgive me if I'm being paranoid, but if I were a breeder, I wouldn't let people take my puppies to the vet before they bought it, what if they ran off with it?* Is that standard, what he told us? Also, if the vet doesn't check for hip dysplasia and things like that, how can you really be sure the puppy is healthy?* One more quick thing, I was poking around in other threads and I saw mentioned that you shouldn't let your dog walk on public floors until it has its vaccines. Does that mean you can't take them on walks until then either? We have an almost full fenced in yard, but there's one wall that isn't and I would never let my Cavalier run around the yard like that. I just would want to be sure he was getting exercise!


your best bet to avoide hip dysplasia is to get a pup who's parents both tested negative for hip dysplasia with an x-ray specificly taken to check for it. It's considered useless to do a hip x-ray on a young puppy because their loose joints can be easily mistaken for dysplastic untill they are older and their joints tighten up.



DJEtzel said:


> Right, I understand that, but would they every be considered pure Cavs again? If there's no way to get them registered, I guess I don't understand going to such lengths for a breed that won't exist...
> 
> And no, I haven't...


http://www.luadalmatians.com/
LUA Dalmations have been accepted back into the Dalmation breed by the UKC but not by the AKC.


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> You're correct about vaccinations and walks. NO contact with the ground on public property until all shots are done or he could be at risk for a deadly disease (parvo). You can excersize him on a long lead in your yard, or in your house until then. Make sure you're still taking the pup out to be socialized though- just hold it so that it stills gets the sights, sounds, smells, but doesn't contract anything from the ground.


I didn't think that sounded right, so thank you! And thank you for the information on the x-rays!  Okay, so if parvo comes from feces, and there is obviously some outside from our family dog (I live at home and even though this dog will be mine to be responsible for, it will be with my family and other dog as well), should I take him to a different section of the yard when I'm potty training him? The family dog goes out in the front yard, so should I take mine in the back? And is it okay to take him places that AREN'T public and put him on the floor? For example, we go over to my grandma's house every week, would I have to keep him in my lap, or can he be on the floor (as long as I'm watching him, of course!)?



Keechak said:


> your best bet to avoide hip dysplasia is to get a pup who's parents both tested negative for hip dysplasia with an x-ray specificly taken to check for it. It's considered useless to do a hip x-ray on a young puppy because their loose joints can be easily mistaken for dysplastic untill they are older and their joints tighten up.


Thank you for this advice! I can be kind of paranoid sometime, so I would be wanting to get all the tests right away if I hadn't read this, and then I would have had more reason to panic, thinking that something was wrong when really, his joints just weren't tight! So thank you for clearing up what could have been a potential panic attack for me!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Root said:


> Then hopefully I won't have any reason to use my pup's 3 year health guarantee.


but..you said the dog was 6 years old...hrmm...


Root, having a vet sign off on healthy parents doesnt mean anything.

Healthy parents can still be carriers of genetic conditions that are common in many breeds. you can easily get crosses where you unknowingly mate two dogs who are both heterozygous for a genetic disorder and produce pups that are homozygous for the disorder. some disorders have complex linkages where multiple factors come into play. and some disorders can appear at any point in the dogs life. Unless your breeder can provide you proof that every care was taken against such situations..that health guarantee is empty talk..

real life scenario

girl bought a vet checked crossbreed on a two year health guarantee that the breeder KNEW (and said nothing) might be positive for a genetic disorder that makes its appearance in dogs ages 5 and up generally...and with no take back clause..the vet bills bled her dry. the litigation is going to cost even more.

just an FYI.


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

Regarding the idea that mixed dog breeders fail to conduct health tests.

If there's one that does then there are probably others. Better to focus on what makes a good breeder rather than assume every mixed dog breeder isn't a good breeder.

http://www.swissridgegoldendoodles.com/


> All the golden retrievers and poodles go through a series of genetic test's including OFA, CERF, VWb, thyroid and SA. I am a veterinary technologist and have gone through 3 years of intensive training. My knowledge has helped me breed high quality, healthy dogs. When you adopt from Swissridge kennels you know you are getting the best Goldendoodle, please contact us if you have any questions. We strive to breed the best goldendoodles and the best customer service....just see our goldendoodle references!



********************************************



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> but..you said the dog was 6 years old...hrmm...


My pup is coming up on 10 months. I know someone who purchased from the same breeder and her dog is 6 years old.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Root, having a vet sign off on healthy parents doesnt mean anything.
> 
> Healthy parents can still be carriers of genetic conditions that are common in many breeds. you can easily get crosses where you unknowingly mate two dogs who are both heterozygous for a genetic disorder and produce pups that are homozygous for the disorder. some disorders have complex linkages where multiple factors come into play. and some disorders can appear at any point in the dogs life. Unless your breeder can provide you proof that every care was taken against such situations..that health guarantee is empty talk..
> 
> ...


Good point on the health testing.

http://www.embracepetinsurance.com/Health/shihpoo.aspx

I found a website that identifies a medium level risk in shih poos for Entropion, Patellar Luxation, Hip Dysplasia and Cataracts. I don't assume this is an complete list.

Hypothetically.. cataracts probably won't be present during the 3 year health guarantee period. What about Entropion, Patellar Luxation and Hip Dysplasia? 

To satisfy my own curiosity I'm going to contact the breeder I purchased from to find out if health testing was done on their dogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Im not very familiar with Entropion but Patellar Luxation and Dysplasia can become a problem at ANY point in the dog's life. if by cataracts, you mean PRA..a dog can develop PRA at even 6, 7, 8 years of age. PRA is what my neighbor's dog has(the girl i was referring to.). He's a Standard Poodle/Collie cross. He's also completely blind at this point. (edit to add: he was one of the few recommeded for surgery. and as a college student...that was a big hit on her pockets.)

the thing that gets me..is while dogs can live happy lives with decent care with these diseases...a simple test in most cases is all it takes to PREVENT this. take PRA for example..ive even heard of FREE dna testing for PRA. Why not do it? and with stuff like Dysplasia..a simple set of Xrays can prevent dogs having to be put down or facing total hip replacement surgery at relatively young ages. 

the only thing i can think of is that if you dont..you just dont care about the dogs. and THAT should be what you look for in a breeder in my opinion. Someone who takes the time and effort to do right by their dogs..those who do...will by definiton have better dogs.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

matedaalma said:


> I didn't think that sounded right, so thank you! And thank you for the information on the x-rays!  Okay, so if parvo comes from feces, and there is obviously some outside from our family dog (I live at home and even though this dog will be mine to be responsible for, it will be with my family and other dog as well), should I take him to a different section of the yard when I'm potty training him? The family dog goes out in the front yard, so should I take mine in the back? And is it okay to take him places that AREN'T public and put him on the floor? For example, we go over to my grandma's house every week, would I have to keep him in my lap, or can he be on the floor (as long as I'm watching him, of course!)?


Parvo comes from dogs who are not vaccinated and HAVE it. If your dog is vaccinated, you can take the new pup into the yard with his/her feces and urine with no issue. You can also take the pup to your grandma's house and put him on the floor if no other (strange) dogs have been there. Likewise, if you have a friend with a dog that you know is vaccinated, you can take your pup to play with them too, on the ground. You just want to avoid public areas where a diseased dog COULD have been. I doubt strange dogs are walking through your grandma's house on a daily basis though, ya know?


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## matedaalma (Sep 14, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Parvo comes from dogs who are not vaccinated and HAVE it. If your dog is vaccinated, you can take the new pup into the yard with his/her feces and urine with no issue. You can also take the pup to your grandma's house and put him on the floor if no other (strange) dogs have been there. Likewise, if you have a friend with a dog that you know is vaccinated, you can take your pup to play with them too, on the ground. You just want to avoid public areas where a diseased dog COULD have been. I doubt strange dogs are walking through your grandma's house on a daily basis though, ya know?


Ahhh, okay! I wasn't sure if it was just because of the germs in the feces and young, unvaccinated pups would get something from it or not. I've just recently learned of parvo, so I wasn't quite sure how it went. But no, no strange dogs in my grandma's house, haha! She hasn't had a dog since before I was born! Thank you!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

matedaalma said:


> Ahhh, okay! I wasn't sure if it was just because of the germs in the feces and young, unvaccinated pups would get something from it or not. I've just recently learned of parvo, so I wasn't quite sure how it went. But no, no strange dogs in my grandma's house, haha! She hasn't had a dog since before I was born! Thank you!


No problem! Good luck finding a breeder and a pup!


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## Cavaliersarecute (Sep 15, 2010)

> I've spoken to a local breeder who seems good, but her dogs are way out of my price range. (I know, a good, healthy pup is worth any price, but the reality is that I'm only 21 years old and don't have that kind of money!)


If you don't feel you can afford to purchase the pup, you probably shouldn't. The purchase price is nothing compared to what the dog will cost you in the first few years alone. Yes, they are expensive......if you pay less up front by going through a backyard breeder you will pay the difference later in your dog's life.

The best way to find a good breeder is to go to a local show and talk to breeders in person. Talk to other Cavalier owners and get personal recommendations. Do not buy from an internet classified ad or a newspaper classified ad. A reputable breeder will not have their puppies advertised online. A breeder that shows and belongs to a club is not enough recommedation. I would strongly suggest pesonal recommendations above all else.



> There isn't anything medically that you can do with Syringiomylia - and the only way to prove its existence is by a MRI


SM can only be firmly diagnosed by MRI but can be treated by medication depending on the degree of severity. I have never heard of "streching her neck" to treat a "spasm". 



> Please, stay FAR away from any breeder that mixes.


Absolutely 100% true....a reputable breeder WILL NOT cross breeder. 



> Many responsible Cav people support outcrossing to Cockers (or other small spaniels), to try to reduce the incidence of these horrible problems.


Actually.....they don't. I know of no one who supports crossbreeding to Cockers or any other breed. I am actively involved in Cavaliers through clubs, rescue, etc. and know of absolutely no one who support cross breeding.

When looking at health tests for Cavaliers be sure the breeder is showing you heart evaluations from a cardiologist....not a regular vet.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Cavaliersarecute said:


> Absolutely 100% true....a reputable breeder WILL NOT cross breeder.


not 100% true, I love my aussies and it's because people were willing to mix breeds for a purpose that I got my breed.


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## Cavaliersarecute (Sep 15, 2010)

Keyword.....*reputable*.....there is not a single reputable Cavalier breeder who will cross breed.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

We don't speak the same language then. How come "reputable" breeders haven't been able to lower the incidence of SM and heart murmurs in the last 10 years even tho there is testing available? I understand they have been trying very hard to get rid of it but there is a genetic dead end in the breed, and there are no dogs in the breed that do not have close relatives who are affected.

Is it more wrong to introduce one or two Cocker spaniels or English Toy spaniels into the breed, or continue to breed dogs who are affected by these disorders or have close family that are affected by these disorders?


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## Cavaliersarecute (Sep 15, 2010)

A reputable breeder is health testing and trying to lower the incidence of SM and MVD. Such a breeder is difficult to find amongst the many charlatans but they are out there. There are Cavalier breeders who are breeding after 2 1/2 years old with parents and grandparents who are/were heart healthy at 5 years old. 

If someone is looking to purchase a purebred Cavalier and they find a breeder who is crossing with a Cocker or ETS...they are not getting a Cavalier and they are purchasing from someone is not breeding to better the breed.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

so your motto is "lets just keep trying"? how long do you think it should go on?


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## Cavaliersarecute (Sep 15, 2010)

Not sure where this is coming from....where I said "let's keep trying". I am simply stating.....a reputable Cavalier breeder from whom someone wishes to purchase a purebred Cavalier from will be not be breeding with another breed. Stating a definition of what a reputable Cavalier breeder would be doing with respect to cross breeding. How long should it go on? I have a healthy 8 year old so I don't know why it shouldn't.....if the breeding protocol is followed.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I have to ask again, how come Cavalier breeders haven't been able to lower the incidence of SM and heart murmurs in the breed in the last 10 years even tho there is testing available? This is honest curiosity on my behalf, Is there a small nook where it has worked that I haven't heard about?


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## Cavaliersarecute (Sep 15, 2010)

I wish I had a good answer for this. I honestly think the main reason is too many breeders are not following the MVD breeding protocol. This is a breeding protocol recommended by cardiologists to reduce the chance of early onset heart disease. You would think if an expert said "this will help with your problem" more people would do it. SM is a whole different story. Although not a new disease it is relatively new re diagnosis. My vet just recently commented "I wonder how many Cavaliers I have treated for allergies not knowing it was SM". There is not a definitive "test" for SM breeding but there is ongoing research and attempts to raise money to fund such research. But if so many breeders aren't following the relatively straight forward MVD protocols I don't know why we expect them to follow any kind of SM protocol. 

The key.....support a breeder (if what you want is a purebred) who does the health testing available to them and has the best interest of the breed as a whole in mind. There are such breeders. Do not support anyone who doesn't health test. If there weren't buyers for them they would go out of business. In the perfect world


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Would you say that Out-crossing does have it's advantages if a breed is completely homozygous for a health problem and all that was needed was one non affected dog to be mixed in and then close the studbook again. Such as what they are doing with Dalmatians?


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## Cavaliersarecute (Sep 15, 2010)

I honestly don't have enough knowledge and background to give you an educated answer to your question in relation to Cavaliers. 

I will say that I have a healthy 8 year old and hope he remains healthy for many years, I haven't given up on the breed


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

"I will say that I have a healthy 8 year old and hope he remains healthy for many years, I haven't given up on the breed"

Interesting thinking this is, and I read it a lot from those in Cavaliers. I happen to be a huge fan of the breed, but I read this following bit on a forum once, and it made me give my head a good shake (thank you John). The conversation was with someone who wanted to try to breed the best Cavaliers they could, but who admitted that they would not be able to know, at breeding age, what their dog was carrying in regards to both the serious issues, and many more.

_"There you go, Seven! You made the leap (you're not alone) from wanting to breed healthy cavs to wanting to breed cavs as long as they're not so bad.

That is a *horribly slippery slope *and, to my mind, highly questionable.* You will be breeding a dog that you know will have a disease when you could outcross to avoid it. *And why? Because you don't want something called the CKCS to die out? 

But the term CKCS is just that - a term, a name, a human invention. The dogs that come affixed will that name will die, as all dogs do, but they will die younger and they will suffer more. Those dogs will die and more dogs will be bred. Should we condemn these to suffer too in order to preserve a name?

Or is there a quality within the dogs themselves, independent of the name? Because if that's what you value then that's what should be preserved and it should come in a healthy package and blow the name."_​
That turned light bulbs on for me. It might not for you. 

Whenever I read a Cavalier owner say that they have a healthy Cavalier at a certain age, so they are happy about that, I have to wonder if they've put any thought into the littermates or cousins that did not fare as well.

I know this breed back to foundation. I know which are Bitch G and Bitch Z, the girls from the late 50s that were pinpointed as the most likely root of the SM problem, along with all the other coded lettered 'risky' important dogs in Clare Rusbridge's thesis study. I have been on breeder lists for many years now, getting to know the great breeders in the breed, and the not so great, and why what has happened, happened. I know which dogs in pedigrees and lines are most risky, and which ones are less, and I haven't given up on the breed either. I have given up on having faith in the honesty of the vast majority of breeders about their stock - including the vast majority of club affiliated top breeders.

I still believe it should be outcrossed - to at least save some in the generation of which is to suffer next . That is not giving up, that is moving forward constructively and compassionately with the DOGS in mind. No, the pup that does not do well might not be the one you purchase, but odds are for every one born with a long healthy life ahead, there is one born with a shortened one. I cannot support that. A x A dogs are producing SM pups. Good solid heart dogs bred together are not always producing the same. I don't know a single cluster or line anywhere that does not have more risk than I would dare to work with, and I know lines well.

I'm sure I will be fighting for first in line for a pup from any breeder that pushes through an authorized outcross. That would be a 'reputable' breeder AND a leader willing to do what is right for the breed and take all the flack that will be heaped on them as they do so . . . and I do still know that there are reputable breeders in Cavaliers. Their thought processes, obviously, are just different from mine.

_"CKCSC,USA dumps MVD breeding protocol. 

Taking a giant step backwards from its May 1998 decision endorsing the MVD breeding protocol, the board of directors of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club, USA rejected that protocol at its April 2010 meeting. Instead, its board approved a watered down, proven worthless "recommended guideline", calling for the breeding pair to have MVD-murmur-clear hearts at only 24 months."​_​
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/editorial.htm#CKCSC,USA_Dumps_MVD_Breeding_Protocol

_"There are many members who are still not prepared to health check their breeding stock, and of those who do, it would appear that many would not hesitate to breed from affected animals." -- Mrs. Lesley Jupp, Chairman of the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club of the UK, 24 March 2009​_​
http://www.cavalierhealth.org/

SOB


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Cavaliersarecute said:


> Absolutely 100% true....a reputable breeder WILL NOT cross breed.


What about the people who recreated the Cav in the early 1900s, by cross-breeding spaniels? All 'purebreds' were created by people intelligently crossing dogs to achieve a desired appearance/temperament/drive. The concept of 'purity' that many dog breeders believe in is far more stringent and inflexible compared to purebred cat, horse, etc. breeders who all recognize and allow for controlled outcrossing, and they manage it without destroying or losing their breeds. They adapted with modern genetic science, whereas purebred dog culture still enshrines 19th Century concepts of invisible 'blood purity'.

Once a breed gets to where over 50% are suffering from inheritable diseases, and all descend from a mere handful of dogs (not the several HUNDRED minimum that is required to maintain a healthy COI longterm) there is little choice BUT to embrace controlled outcrossing to fix the problems. You don't lose the breed from controlled, intelligent outcrossing, just look at the LUA Dals or natural bobtailed Boxers. This is basic genetics, you don't need to have all genetically-homogenous dogs to create the proper breed type. It _will _require more work by many people for several years to take the outcrossed dogs up to perfect 'show standards', but the result is worth it for the longterm health benefits of increased genetic diversity.

Modern breeders need to embrace PHENOTYPIC purity, instead of GENOTYPIC purity (achieved by close inbreeding), which has only led to more problems in many breeds, not less.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Cavaliersarecute said:


> Keyword.....*reputable*.....there is not a single reputable Cavalier breeder who will cross breed.


I find that sad considering the health of the breed. But actually I know someone in the breed (albeit in Sweden) that is for it. They recently did a Clumber spaniel project over there and so it has come up in the cavalier circles there from what she's said. Unfortunately she said that it is not going over well with most the cavalier people. 

Incidentally enough it only took the 3rd generation for the outcrossed clumbers to be brought back to clumber conformation. They were evaluated and re-accepted into the breed with blank pedigrees on their english cocker sides.

ETA: I have a feeling some of you will find this interesting... it's in Swedish but here's the Clumber outcross project.

http://www.clumber.net/page_1238420066108.html

Cocker stud used: http://www.diabf.com/swe/image/Smaviltjagarens-Oryx.jpg

One of the outcrossed dogs:


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Interesting, what was the purpose of the cross?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Health. From what I understand in Sweden a dog must pass certain health clearances before being bred and having offspring registered with the club. Clumbers have quite a few health problems and the dogs were not passing enough of their health clearances. The genepool in the breed is also very small so the breeders literally had to outcross in order to breed dogs that were healthy enough to be bred. You'll notice their clumbers over there have a more moderated type than ours do but that doesn't have to do with the cross, it's just the type over there. All their spaniels and setters (and most breeds really) are less extreme than what we have here. Except their papillons typically have a lot more coat, which is weird to me.

I'm not very up on all that is required and I don't read Swedish. Babblefish only takes you so far lol. I could ask the friend of mine though.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Health. From what I understand in Sweden a dog must pass certain health clearances before being bred and having offspring registered with the club. Clumbers have quite a few health problems and the dogs were not passing enough of their health clearances. The genepool in the breed is also very small so the breeders literally had to outcross in order to breed dogs that were healthy enough to be bred. You'll notice their clumbers over there have a more moderated type than ours do but that doesn't have to do with the cross, it's just the type over there. All their spaniels and setters (and most breeds really) are less extreme than what we have here. Except their papillons typically have a lot more coat, which is weird to me.


I rather like their style. Generally I'm not a fan of Clumbers but those look pretty nice, with less of a droopy face. 
I like a lot of what the Swedish Kennel Club has been doing lately, they seem like a very forward-thinking kennel club.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

It's very strange the difference between their cockers and ours.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> It's very strange the difference between their cockers and ours.


That's a working english cocker. I'm sure american bred working english cockers would look very different to you too.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> That's a working english cocker. I'm sure american bred working english cockers would look very different to you too.


Haha, probably.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks Laurelin for the Clumber Spaniel outcross link . . . . bit rusty on my Finnish here too though. Thank goodness for google translate.

With the way this discussion has gone, I thought this might be an appropriate place to put this - published yesterday.

_"*Evaluation of the Swedish breeding program for cavalier King Charles spaniels*

A breeding program with the aim of reducing the prevalence of mitral regurgitation (MR) caused by myxomatous mitral valve disease (MMVD) in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels (CKCS) is currently ongoing in Sweden. In this investigation 353 CKCS were selected as a sample of the population and 150 were examined by auscultation for heart murmurs when they reached the age of six years in 2007 and 2009. The aim with this investigation was to study the prevalence of heart murmurs in six-year-old CKCS and to estimate if prevalence has decreased since the breeding program was introduced 2001. The effect of the breeding program was evaluated by comparing the prevalence of heart murmurs in the two groups. In 2007, the prevalence of heart murmurs was 52% (50% for females and 54% for males) and in 2009, the prevalence was 55% (44% for females and 67% for males). No significant difference was found in the prevalence of heart murmurs between 2007 and 2009 (P=0.8). For all six-year-old CKCS, the prevalence of heart murmur was 53% (females 46% and males 61%), which is higher than previous Swedish investigations."_

OOops. Forgot the link: http://www.actavetscand.com/content/52/1/54 

SOB


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