# Does this westie breeder site sound fishy?



## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

Hey guys,

I am currently doing research on westie breeders, and am planning on picking one up within the next month or two.

From the research I have done, including the article by Dr. Ian Dunbar posted right here in DF, there are a couple main things to do before picking up a dog:

1) visit the litter and see if they are socializing and outgoing
2) ask the breeder questions regarding the dog's health history
3) make sure the dog is raised at home, not in kennels or from pet stores

This website states that we are NOT allowed to see the puppies beforehand due to the risk of contaminating the dogs with parvovirus/disturbing the mom and puppies etc. We have to pay a non refundable deposit to reserve and see the dogs before picking them up. The puppies are raised in a kennel. 

It sounds to me that this breeder is doing all things breeders should NOT be doing. However, I have been told that they have a good reputation as westie breeders. 

Any comments on whether this breeder sounds reliable?

Thanks a bunch!

(If I am allowed to post the website up, please let me know. Some forums do not allow this b/c it's a form of advertising etc.)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmmmm....I can understand a breeder not wanting everybody in town tromping through their kennels, but I do think that after talking to someone, they should have a good idea of how serious they are and allow the serious potential buyers to see the litter.

And I'm not entirely against the dogs being kenneled (because even good breeders may have too many dogs to realistically keep inside). Although I would want the pups to be raised indoors, particularly for pups intended to be housepets. 

Are they willing to answer your questions? If not, I wouldn't buy from them. Just because they have a good reputation doesn't mean they're ethical breeders.

Here's another link, keep in mind these guidelines aren't set in stone, just somethign to think about: http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/7077-finding-good-dog-breeder.html

ETA: I'm pretty sure you can post the website. Lots of other people have done it anyway, and none of their posts got deleted.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Kennelling isn't ideal, but to me, the red flag is that the deposit is non-refundable. I don't necessarily think that's a terrible thing but I *DO* think that you haven't met the dogs in question prior to picking up your pup is a red flag.

Westies aren't exactly a rare breed- I'd keep looking.


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the replies.

I looked at the "Finding a good dog breeder" thread, and there are a couple points in which this breeder violates, including: 
- extremely strict booked appointments
- they breed bulldogs along with westies (not necessarily bad I guess)
- no visitations prior to puppy pickup, where a non-refundable deposit must be given first, so I may not be able to view the other pups other than the one I reserved
-they accept cash only, no cheques or money orders

I'll ask about those other questions and see how they respond.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Some helpful pages here:
http://www.wonderpuppy.net/1breeding.php


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Well....

- extremely strict booked appointments
That's actually pretty standard. I would be SERIOUSLY pissed and not let someone in if they just showed up. My house is NOT a petting zoo or open for show and tell. This is nothing to do with conditions- this is due to the fact that it is MY HOUSE. I'm not a business or anything like that. I'm flexible in when people want to come by, but just dropping by is NOT an option. 

- they breed bulldogs along with westies (not necessarily bad I guess)
No, not necessarily - a lot of folks ARE involved in two breeds and it's almost more common than not. Most people whose lives are totally around dogs either are involved in a REALLY versatile breed that gives them lots of different ways to compete with that breed, have been involved with other brreeds in the past or in the future, or have a second (or in a few cases, even third) breed that's very different from their primary breed. I have collies and a German Spitz - the spitz is something I can owner handle (in UKC - the breed isn't AKC yet) and is a totally different experience. 

- no visitations prior to puppy pickup, where a non-refundable deposit must be given first, so I may not be able to view the other pups other than the one I reserved

I may or may not let people visit when the litter is on the ground because of disease concerns- I'll let friends and family who I KNOW understand and will obey my quarantine restrictions (no stopping ANYWHERE near other dogs with no vaccination histories on the way to my house- not even on the same day, and if you've got a dog at your own house that's questionable (for example, a new rescue from the shelter), you'll have to wait till the pups have had their shots. And this is all case-by-case, so I can boil it down to "No visiting babies unless I say so." I also don't necessarily plan to let everyone meet all the puppies. I'm not QUITE as strict about doing the picking for folks as some folks are, but I'm not exactly going to turn out all the puppies and say "Here, take your pick." 

-they accept cash only, no cheques or money orders

THIS one bothers me. Frankly, by the time someone is taking a puppy home from me, I should know them well enough to be comfortable with a check or MO. This is true for rescues, too.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

bpm30 said:


> -they accept cash only, no cheques or money orders


Run away! Run far away.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

This does not sound like a reputable breeder. Keep looking.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Find one from this list, http://www.westieclubamerica.com/breederlisting.html

I can tell from what you've described that they are not a good breeder.


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

We'll be checking out the puppy tomorrow. Hopefully everything turns out well. Apparently this person is a very very reputable breeder, so we'll check it out.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

bpm30 said:


> We'll be checking out the puppy tomorrow. Hopefully everything turns out well. Apparently this person is a very very reputable breeder, so we'll check it out.


Honestly, there is zero chance of that. I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to help you avoid a costly decision.


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## ValtheAussie (Apr 19, 2009)

My dog's breeder took a check for a deposit but requested cash for the remaining amount.

I thought that was alright, being that people could try to pull a fast one and stop payment or give a rubber check.....ya never know, once burned, twice shy...


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

Through email communication, she has allowed a visit to the pup w/o payment. Hopefully the littermates are not all sold yet. The mother will be there. 

They sound like a nice family, and they seem more lax then how they portrayed themselves on the website. 

Other than the "cash only" policy (which is somewhat understandable, like ValtheAussie said, once burned, twice shy), what should I look out for? A receipt can be given if I request for one.

The price for the pup is $1000+tax, CDN dollars.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Do you have a link to this website?


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

I can PM the site to anyone who's interested. THe forum rules says my account may be banned if I post any kind of breeder info out.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

I just looked at their website. A few points.

1. It doesn't look like they health test except for making sure the puppies are healthy.

2. They have too many conditions as far as taking back a puppy because of poor health. The really weird condition was that the puppy can only eat the a particular brand of kibble. Most good breeders don't have too many if any conditions on health guarantee and it is usually for life.

3. It seems like they just got into showing. Some of their adults are not very good examples of the breed. The newer puppies are better but this excerpt here from their website bothered me. 

*Just because our dogs have not made it to the show ring prior to 2007 does not mean that they are not champions in our eyes and everyone that meets them. I still think health and temperament are the two main reasons for breeding, not a dog that looks perfect when stacked on a table. If you manage to get exceptional show quality puppies from a litter that is the icing on the cake. I strive to raise quality companion animals not show stock.*


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

bpm30 said:


> I can PM the site to anyone who's interested. THe forum rules says my account may be banned if I post any kind of breeder info out.



What we ban is breeders coming here and advertising their litters for sale. Go ahead and post the site. 

Honestly though from what you describe there are some red flags.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

It seems like you've already made up your mind, honestly.


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm new to the whole dog world, this will be my first dog. Do all breeders breed for show? Like you posted, the dogs are raised for companionship, not show. Does that warrant a cheaper price of the puppy, since it isn't coming from a prominent show blood line? The price is CDN $1000 + tax.

One major thing favouring this breeder is the timing. The puppy is 8 weeks old right now and is ready for pickup whenever we want, assuming it is still available. I've contacted other breeders but they haven't responded yet, whereas this breeder has been responding very quickly to my emails. It is the summer, so my family and I have more spare time to take care and train this puppy while it's still young.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Definitely sounds iffy to me. I would pass on this breeder.


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's the website:

http://www.sauderswesthighlandterriers.com/


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

bpm30 said:


> I'm new to the whole dog world, this will be my first dog. Do all breeders breed for show? Like you posted, the dogs are raised for companionship, not show. Does that warrant a cheaper price of the puppy, since it isn't coming from a prominent show blood line? The price is CDN $1000 + tax.
> 
> One major thing favouring this breeder is the timing. The puppy is 8 weeks old right now and is ready for pickup whenever we want, assuming it is still available. I've contacted other breeders but they haven't responded yet, whereas this breeder has been responding very quickly to my emails. It is the summer, so my family and I have more spare time to take care and train this puppy while it's still young.


If a breeder doesn't compete in the show ring or some type other type of competition how do they know if their dogs are any good and are representative of the breed? 

Most westie breeders do not let their dogs go at 8 weeks. Usually they wait until 10 weeks.

The right time to get a puppy is when you've found the right puppy from a good breeder.

Some breeders don't respond to email so I would call them.

I'm in the US so I don't know how much dogs go for in Canada. Show breeders can charge up to $2000 in certain areas and that is for a pet quality dog. I've never tried to get a show quality dog but some breeders will not even sell them. I know my breeder was going to keep any show quality dog if one was lucky enough to turn up in a litter.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I think they have their heart in the right place, but aren't quite there with the smarts yet


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

I will for sure get in contact w/ other breeders before buying from her. I'm just going to check the pup and its environment out tomorrow.

From her site, it sounds like she is a nice (possibly naive) lady very passionate about her westies, who in the past, has had very bad experiences from purchasers. Westies are not rare to find, so I think this is the best explanation for her strict rules. I'm sure she's aware that she may be giving headaches to potential buyers which can deter them, but she isn't changing her ways b/c of bad things that have happened in the past.

What do you think?

BTW, thanks for all the heads up everyone, many good points mentioned here in this thread.


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## Lolas_Dad (Apr 28, 2008)

bpm30 said:


> I'm new to the whole dog world, this will be my first dog. Do all breeders breed for show? Like you posted, the dogs are raised for companionship, not show. Does that warrant a cheaper price of the puppy, since it isn't coming from a prominent show blood line? The price is CDN $1000 + tax.
> 
> One major thing favouring this breeder is the timing. The puppy is 8 weeks old right now and is ready for pickup whenever we want, assuming it is still available. I've contacted other breeders but they haven't responded yet, whereas this breeder has been responding very quickly to my emails. It is the summer, so my family and I have more spare time to take care and train this puppy while it's still young.


If it were me and a first dog that you do not have an interest in showing or other competition then I would be looking for a rescue pup. There are rescue groups for all breeds of dogs.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Hmm.. I just purchased my Pap puppy, Roxy, 2 weekends ago..and her breeder was AMAZING, so maybe if I post some things to look for, it will help?

- Know your breed standards. A BYB will breed for money, and a reputable breeder will breed to better the breed.

- Check for cleanliness, ex) Floors are mopped, house doesn't reek of feces, puppies are more then likely in their own seperate area of the house where they cannot be harmed or get into anything.

-Parents on premises. Who wants to buy a puppy where the parents are no where around and you'll have no idea what the puppy may grow up to look like, or what it's possible temperment could be? You're spending all kinds of money and deserve to know those kinds of things, OTHERWISE you might as well find a puppy at a shelter for much less of the $$.

- Health gaurantee. A reputable breeder will gaurantee the health of a puppy for up to a certain amount of time after leaving their home, and will ask you to take your puppy to a vet within a certain amount of time to prove that you have received a healthy puppy. They should be covered for hereditary defects for life.

- Breeder should be very, very knowledgable on the breed and willing to answer any questions you have. I'd do my research on your breed first, and ask a tricky question that a breeder should have to know. I don't even breed, and I could answer almost any question you could think of about my Paps, so for someone who has devoted their time and money into raising and breeding a certain breed, they should know even more.

- Sincerity and trust. A reputable breeder will not just hand off their puppies. They'll screen you, you'll need to prove you have a home or landlord approval. They only want to see their puppies go to the best of the best. And by the time they know all of this, they'll be able to trust you enough to take a check.


-Proof of first vaccines, and papers for sire and dams bloodlines.

Good luck, and I really hope you find the pup of your dreams.

BTW, anyone else think $1000 for a companion pup from a breeder is crazy?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Alright, I see nothing about health testing on the parents (ask about it, the Westie club sight will tell you which tests are recommended), I also take it as a red flag that she does NO competitions of any kind, fine that she doesn't show as long as she has them judged as conformationally sound, but I see no mention of that either. However she should be doing SOMETHING to 'prove" her dogs as breed worthy. 

Honestly, there are MUCH better out there from what I can tell from her website.



> BTW, anyone else think $1000 for a companion pup from a breeder is crazy?


Not if the pup is from a reputable breeder with health tested, proven parents.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

PappyMom said:


> BTW, anyone else think $1000 for a companion pup from a breeder is crazy?


Eh, not really, depending on breed.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Maybe it just depends on where you're from. Most breeders around here are $600-$750 per puppy...females generally being the more expensive.


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## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

I wasnt impressed by the westies on her page at all. honestly the breeder probably isnt showing because there is no way those dogs could place in a conformation ring (and i obviously havent even put my hands on one).

As a first time buyer, yes, it's exciting you want a puppy NOW, but i am sure you want a puppy that is like what you read about with westies. the thing is if you go to a breeder that doesnt show, isnt in "the scene" with other westie folks you arent going to get what you think you are. a round face, carrot tail, and a white wirey coat arent the only factors that make a westie. The huge downside to this type of breeder is that not only may your dog behave unlike a westie, look unlike a westie, but heath issues that you dont see now can pop up in 2,5,7,10 years and get really expensive and heart breaking. If you can't wait a few months to a year for this pup, you may want to reconsider why you want it in the first place.

Also, with breeders not emailing back, you have to pick up the phone 1. and if lots of them arent calling you back, there's probably a big show or westie function going on. that's what happened when i was shopping for my borzoi. no one called me back for 2 weeks because they were all at some big name national borzoi show i'd never known about.


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## RRM_Mom08 (May 5, 2008)

Ok here is my take on this 

1) You should be able to meet the dam and the litter.I think it is reasonable for them to say they need to be older (say 6 weeks or more) and that you have to scrub your hands and not haver visited any other breeders that day at all.

2) There is nothing wrong with a weel run,clean kennel.It is my belief that the litter though should be raised indoors around humans from birth though (ps we do not have a keenel for our dogs though because we are very small)

3) It is fine for a breeder to be into more then one breed the main thing is to make sure that they are knowledgeable about all the breeds that they are breeding.And that they can tell you the good points and bad points and they know and test for health issues.

4) My deposit's on pups are non-refundable (unless there is a health issue at vet-checks for that pup) not because someone changes there mind ect... and honestly in this day and age cash at pick-up is pretty standard (and I actually have my sister here who is a counterfit expert who goes over everything in a seperate room while I go over pick-up with my clients) with everyone in my circle. (deposit's we will take everything) I have heard horror story's of breeders taking checks and they bounce or taking CC payments ect and having them dispute the charge.So yes I would only take cash at pick up.Now if someone wanted to pay via check they have to have it arrive at my home in time for it to clear which would be 2 weeks for out of state (I think for money orders there is a $1000.00 limit and day ? and my pup prices are higher then that)




PappyMom said:


> - Check for cleanliness, ex) Floors are mopped, house doesn't reek of feces, *puppies are more then likely in their own separate area of the house* where they cannot be harmed or get into anything.
> 
> Actually my puppies are in my dining room living room I prefer them to be around people all day long.I would never keep them in a separate room
> 
> ...


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

I was 30 mins away from the breeder's place, and decided to turn back. I got a call from a friend who knows a bit of inside information about breeders. After I heard the info, I turned back.

Now, I cant say for sure that it (the breeder's kennel) was a bad place, i just went with my gut instinct.

Several factors:
1) The numerous, numerous, NUMEROUS "red flags" raised in this forum
2) The "inside info" telling us to stay away
3) My gut instinct on all the wacky procedures (ie. must feed certain type of kibble for health guarantee)

Thanks for the heads up guys.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Good for you 

They definitely don't look all that reputable.

And a breeder does not have to show, but they should be doing something with their dogs, maybe lure coursing, or something the Westie was bred for. They could have their CGC's or be therapy dogs too.

And a breeder should always genetically test their dogs for problems the breed has, such as bad hip, bad heart, etc...


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Glad you made that call. 

BTW, I asked a friend who breeds and shows Westies down here. She doesn't breed oftne or have puppies, but says the going rate here in Texas for a pet-quality puppy is $700-1200 and she knows a few people higher and lower- so there's quite a range. 

I think a lot of folks are put up by the 'a health tested well-bred pup is expensive, you need to save your money!' but really, it pays to check with the breeders who do everything under the sun and 'look' too expensive. The price range can be huge. In my breeds (collies and spitz), puppy prices range from $400 (pet-quality from a decent show breeder who doesn't do anything more than eye testing) to $800 (hips and eye checks) to $1200 (hips, eyes, thyroid, cardiac checked on parents), to $2000 (hips, eyes, thyroid, patellas, elbows and emphasis on normal eyed, but using a bloodline to get those normal eyes that none of the others will touch because it's associated with a very, very large volume breeder and is known for skitzy temperaments.)


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

Since we're on the topic, I have a question about dog health and dog prices. I presume the more you pay for your pup, the better health checks it gets, as Dogstar mentioned. However, the breeder dicussed in this thread is selling 'bad' pups for $1000, quite pricey for not so great Westies, I'd say. 

I'm looking for a healthy companion dog, not for show, but I'm sure show dogs have better health than the average dog. 

My question is, is it a bad idea to skimp and pay $700-1000 for a (not-so-perfect) Westie (ie advertised from Kijiji, a website that posts classified advertisements of all kinds), rather than shelling out up to $2000 for a perfect show dog? The answer sounds very obvious, 'you get what you pay for', but I'm just wondering if you guys have different opinions or even experiences from purchasing dogs from regular families rather than professional breeders.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

If those regular families gentically health test their dogs, and their dogs have excellent temperaments...that would be decent. But reputable breeders don't advertise, so you probably won't find that.

You would be buying from a BYB, which usually don't breed for temperament or health, so you could end up with a messed up dog, it does happen.

Reputable breeders, you have a pretty much almost perfect chance of having a very healthy, and tempermentally sound dog. Although sometimes problems occur, but they are few if the breeder knows that they are doing, and has good breeding stock.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

It depends. 

I think the ethical thing to do is spend what you have to go buy from an ethical breeder. To me, this means someone who is proving their dogs in a venue outside their own home, whether it's show or agility or earthdog or working trials. You vote with your dollars and your feet. They're doing breed-appropriate health testing, eliminating unsound and unhealthy dogs from their breeding programs, screening homes, and taking back puppies at any time in their lives. 

If that means your budget is $700? You look till you find an ethical breeder for that price. With such a popular breed as Westies, I suspect you'v egot a local breed club near you. Join that club. Get to know folks. Consider looking for a slightly older pup or a young adult who grew up to not be quite show quality (for example? Mal is available to the cost of his neuter to a pet home- he's not the quality I want to breed, he hates performance, and he can get more one-on-one time in a pet home.) Let people get to know YOU, and the right puppy will find you in fairly short order.

Even though it's hard to wait? Don't necessarily be in a rush. It's hard to wait, but worth it, for the right pup.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Dogstar I love your habit of asking and answering your own questions. It cracks me up all the time. Just had to say that.

Back on topic: to the OP, I'm really glad you decided not to buy a puppy from that breeder. Trust me, it's not something you'll ever regret.

There are two ways of looking at this "cheap BYB vs expensive but reputable breeder" issue. (BYB = backyard breeder = Kijiji-type breeder.)

The first is purely financial. I tell this to people all the time -- save $500 now, spend $2000 at the vet later. Breeders who don't investigate their dogs' history and who don't do extensive health-testing are much more likely to produce puppies with hereditary health diseases. With a reputable breeder, you have a puppy contract if anything goes wrong, and you have the assurance that there are no hip dysplasia or cleft palate genes floating around in your pup. Your dog is a sound representative of his breed. 

Of course, there ARE people out there who have been lucky enough to purchase a dog from a bad breeder and never pay the price in medical bills later on, which is when you move on to the ethical implications of purchasing a pup from a BYB. As Cait said, you vote with your wallet. When you pay a bad breeder money for her pups, you encourage her to keep producing puppies from untitled, untested dogs... pups of the same quality as the hundreds of thousands being put to sleep every year.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

- Check for cleanliness, ex) Floors are mopped, house doesn't reek of feces, puppies are more then likely in their own separate area of the house where they cannot be harmed or get into anything.

_Actually my puppies are in my dining room living room I prefer them to be around people all day long.I would never keep them in a separate room_

*Almost all of the breeders I went to see, before I found Roxy had the puppies gated into the kitchen. Roxy's breeder explained that they still socialized with children and family/friends, who had easy access to a sink to wash up before touching the puppies. The fur-mom and dad were able to access the kitchen all day to be with the pups as well. She also said the tile floor was easy and quick to thoroughly disinfect and clean up any 'accidents'. She could see and check-up on all of the puppies whenever she wanted to, and she said with people visiting, and potential new owners coming to view the puppies, it was safest to keep them in the kitchen..where they could still be socialized and interacted with, but without all the dangers of free roam.*

-Parents on premises. Who wants to buy a puppy where the parents are no where around and you'll have no idea what the puppy may grow up to look like, or what it's possible temperment could be? You're spending all kinds of money and deserve to know those kinds of things, OTHERWISE you might as well find a puppy at a shelter for much less of the $$.

_Actually if they show or if they ship there female out to be bred then it is quite possible that one or both of the parents may not be there.My female was just shipped out so dad will not be around for this litter.So no the parents are nor always around._

*Out of curiousity, if she's just had a litter, why would she be out being bred again already? Mom should atleast be on the premises, don't you think? I can understand dad not being there, if a stud service was used. However, on the other hand, if I were using a stud service, I would have to get to know that dog, and the owners well enough that they'd want to be around to see where the puppies are going..their dog had part in it too, and I'm sure I wouldn't want to breed my dog with another dog owned by people who are just in it for money..if that makes sense. I tend to go more towards breeders who own both parents, anyway. That kind of ensures all of the thought and tests, and shows me what my potential puppy may be like, by watching momma and daddy act in their environment together.*


BTW, anyone else think $1000 for a companion pup from a breeder is crazy?
_Umm no..Lets see First Health testing the parents every year around $300.00 (each) then shipping the female out and back so that's around $700.00 Then we have the pregnancy visits for the dog in question (X-rays blood testing ect $400.00. My dogs require c-sections so lets start at $1500.00 (if there are no problems) for the CS.Hoping we don't lose any pups or the dam.Then we have dew-claws to remove (I do these my self but lets just say $65.00 a pup that's what my vet charges) Then we go to the pups themselves vet care,toys,shots/wormers,playpens and newspaper for the pens...Oh I could go on and on not to mention the fact that our pups have someone with them 24 hours a day at my home they are never left alone on our property at all.

So actually NO $1000.00 is not alot IMO_

*Like I mentioned before, we rarely see puppies over $750 in Connecticut, unless you are walking into a pet store..(gag.).. So that's where my question came from. Roxy was $600..very healthy puppy, parents on premises, proof of health tests, proof of vaccines, proof of bloodlines. Actually, her parents had excellent patellas, which luxating patellas are a big deal for Paps, so that was exciting..I was also able to watch her parents play in the yard with the puppies, and take a run through an agility course that was set up in the backyard. Needless to say, her breeder was awesome, inexpensive, and still fully involved with the puppy (wants to see pictures, hear stories and progress, and offered to take her back no matter how old she is, if at some point in our lives, we can no longer care for her)..I'd do business with her again in a heartbeat.. *


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

PappyMom said:


> *Like I mentioned before, we rarely see puppies over $750 in Connecticut, unless you are walking into a pet store..(gag.).. So that's where my question came from. Roxy was $600..very healthy puppy, parents on premises, proof of health tests, proof of vaccines, proof of bloodlines. Actually, her parents had excellent patellas, which luxating patellas are a big deal for Paps, so that was exciting..I was also able to watch her parents play in the yard with the puppies, and take a run through an agility course that was set up in the backyard. Needless to say, her breeder was awesome, inexpensive, and still fully involved with the puppy (wants to see pictures, hear stories and progress, and offered to take her back no matter how old she is, if at some point in our lives, we can no longer care for her)..I'd do business with her again in a heartbeat.. *


In the tri-state area breeders that are in their various AKC clubs and ones who show routinely charge $2,000. I have done extensive research on two different small breeds here and they are both in that price range.

I have seen breeders who were not in the national or regional clubs who did health testing and seemed great but their dogs could not compete in the show ring. These puppies were $800 - $1200 on average. Now the way they look might not be a big deal to some but if that's the case then don't be surprised when they get bigger for them to look different then what you were expecting. 

One thing about show breeders is that their dogs age really well. I saw dogs at my breeders that were 14 years old and they still looked great. They not only looked great but they were still feisty - a classic westie trait. I don't think people don't think long term enough. A well bred westie will live a long time. If you don't get a good dog, all the money you saved up front will be spent later if they don't age well.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Pepper said:


> If those regular families gentically health test their dogs, and their dogs have excellent temperaments...that would be decent. * But reputable breeders don't advertise, so you probably won't find that.*
> 
> You would be buying from a BYB, which usually don't breed for temperament or health, so you could end up with a messed up dog, it does happen.
> 
> Reputable breeders, you have a pretty much almost perfect chance of having a very healthy, and tempermentally sound dog. Although sometimes problems occur, but they are few if the breeder knows that they are doing, and has good breeding stock.


Actually, I know REPUTABLE BREEDERS who do advertise. And still screen homes carefully and all that jazz. 

*shrugs* it can and is done.


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## RRM_Mom08 (May 5, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> Out of curiousity, if she's just had a litter, why would she be out being bred again already? Mom should atleast be on the premises, don't you think? I can understand dad not being there, if a stud service was used. However, on the other hand, if I were using a stud service, I would have to get to know that dog, and the owners well enough that they'd want to be around to see where the puppies are going..their dog had part in it too, and I'm sure I wouldn't want to breed my dog with another dog owned by people who are just in it for money..if that makes sense. I tend to go more towards breeders who own both parents, anyway. That kind of ensures all of the thought and tests, and shows me what my potential puppy may be like, by watching momma and daddy act in their environment together.


*Well the female would not be bred again  (most females go into heat approx every 6 months anyway).. but the male can and probably would be with his owner either in the ring or if finished he would probably be in the process of being studded out to another b*tch.The female could be in the ring on the show circuit so she could not be around..Like I said that would not be a red flag to me with a reputable show breeder.I did own my own males at one time but after I retired and re-homed my one male I decided to ship my girls out to champion males.If I get a top male then yes I would keep whatever show quality I had from him (male or female) BUT if you keep a male on premises just to breed to every b*tch then you will not improve your line you will produce the same quality pups...and you will back yourself into a bloodline corner.

A Mate should be selected based on how he compliments the partner and the bloodline potential ...not because the owner owns both dogs or because Parents are on premises.

 *



PappyMom said:


> Like I mentioned before, we rarely see puppies over $750 in Connecticut, unless you are walking into a pet store..(gag.).. So that's where my question came from. Roxy was $600..very healthy puppy, parents on premises, proof of health tests, proof of vaccines, proof of bloodlines. Actually, her parents had excellent patellas, which luxating patellas are a big deal for Paps, so that was exciting..I was also able to watch her parents play in the yard with the puppies, and take a run through an agility course that was set up in the backyard. Needless to say, her breeder was awesome, inexpensive, and still fully involved with the puppy (wants to see pictures, hear stories and progress, and offered to take her back no matter how old she is, if at some point in our lives, we can no longer care for her)..I'd do business with her again in a heartbeat..


*Some breeds do go for "cheaper" then other breeds it's just a fact.(The Boston's around her go for $1000.00 on up but my American Bulldog was only $500.00 from a great breeder)

But for the care required for my breed Boston Terriers (C-sections,stud fees,vet cost's ect..) and where I live I would not let my puppies go for under $1000.00 and if a client has a problem with paying that, I tell them to go to the shelter and pick out there new family member (or another breeder or rescue).And you see I can do this because I get enough interest in our litters that the demand definitely out weights the supply.My up-coming litter is most likely already placed in homes of my circuit friends (because these pups will be very nice) and most likely none will go to pet homes. 

*


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

I've no problem with them breeding companion dogs instead of show dogs (indeed, I prefer it, but that's another thread), but the same standards on breeding practices would still apply. I could care less about conformation standards, but health screenings are at the heart of responsible breeding practices. As others have mentioned, I didn't see any information about OFA/CERF screenings for the sire/dam; normally, that should be front and center. If they didn't get the screenings, or they decided to breed despite bad ratings, go somewhere else.

I don't think their meeting rules are completely out of line, but if they're really concerned about spreading disease, I'd insist on being able to at least observe both the litter and the parents, and to inspect the kennel.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> - Check for cleanliness, ex) Floors are mopped, house doesn't reek of feces, puppies are more then likely in their own seperate area of the house where they cannot be harmed or get into anything.


Mine won't be in their "own separate area". They'll be monitored with the rest of the dogs/people (not constantly, but they certainly won't be segregated).



> -Parents on premises. Who wants to buy a puppy where the parents are no where around and you'll have no idea what the puppy may grow up to look like, or what it's possible temperment could be? You're spending all kinds of money and deserve to know those kinds of things, OTHERWISE you might as well find a puppy at a shelter for much less of the $$.


How much do you really know about breeding? If the stud dog isn't there because he's off showing or being bred to another bitch, what are you to do about it? It's not uncommon for dad not to be there. 

Dad won't be available for anybody to meet for my first litter because I don't own him. But I'VE met him and I know him to be of sound body, mind, and temperament.

The sire of my second litter won't be available for viewing either, as I do not own him. But I have met him and handled him, and know him to be of sound mind, body, and temperament.



> BTW, anyone else think $1000 for a companion pup from a breeder is crazy?


No. My Shepherd pet puppies will probably run $1000-1200


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## Lolas_Dad (Apr 28, 2008)

bpm30 said:


> I'm looking for a healthy companion dog, not for show, but I'm sure show dogs have better health than the average dog.



Not sure if there is a difference in health. I'm sure someone will chime in here but why not look to a Westie rescue group since your looking for a companion dog and not a show dog. You could save money and at the same time help a pup out.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Xeph said:


> How much do you really know about breeding? If the stud dog isn't there because he's off showing or being bred to another bitch, what are you to do about it? It's not uncommon for dad not to be there.
> 
> Dad won't be available for anybody to meet for my first litter because I don't own him. But I'VE met him and I know him to be of sound body, mind, and temperament.
> 
> The sire of my second litter won't be available for viewing either, as I do not own him. But I have met him and handled him, and know him to be of sound mind, body, and temperament.


In another post of mine, I said I can understand Dad not being there, especially if a stud service was used.

I do not breed, so obviously I'm not a professional breeder know-it-all..I simply stated what I look for in a breeder.

I do however think that it is important for mom to be with her litter and seen with her litter. 

If you read my other post, I explained further what I meant by everything I said.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I do however think that it is important for mom to be with her litter and seen with her litter.


Also not always an option.

Sometimes, as another poster stated, mom will be leased by another breeder, and will be bred and will whelp at the other breeder's house. The owner of the bitch still has puppies for sale (depending on the contract), but mom will not be at the house.

I have to split my first litter with the co-owner of the bitch. The people that end up with their half of the litter won't get to meet the mother.


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

I found two breeders with westies available right now, one going for $750 (probably BYB), and one for $2000, coming from a show dog litter. I'm having some trouble convincing myself to purchase the $2000 pup, but will likely cave some time soon =). Both are 9 weeks old so I'll have to make a decision soon whether or not to pick it up.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

bpm30 said:


> I found two breeders with westies available right now, one going for $750 (probably BYB), and one for $2000, coming from a show dog litter. I'm having some trouble convincing myself to purchase the $2000 pup, but will likely cave some time soon =). Both are 9 weeks old so I'll have to make a decision soon whether or not to pick it up.


Save yourself some money and spend the $2000.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

bpm30 said:


> I found two breeders with westies available right now, one going for $750 (probably BYB), and one for $2000, coming from a show dog litter. I'm having some trouble convincing myself to purchase the $2000 pup, but will likely cave some time soon =). Both are 9 weeks old so I'll have to make a decision soon whether or not to pick it up.


ONLY buy from the show breeder IF the parents are fully health tested. Honestly, at times even show breeders aren't ethical breeders. For 2000.00 you should be getting the full package, health temperament and conformation. 

Here is a list of health concerns with this breed, straight from the Breed club. It's one of the longest I've seen even compared to English Bulldogs, which are notorious for health problems. 
http://www.westieclubamerica.com/health/concerns.html


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Carla, some of the 'really long lists' are because the breed club puts a lot of money into research.  That's one of the reasons some breeds have such an apparently short list- the parent club has not proven (or does not acknowlege) that a common problem is genetic.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

That's another reason I reccomend a breed specific forum as well. There's always TONS of info on health, training, and who the good breeders are as well as who (what lines) to stay FAR away from!


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> That's another reason I reccomend a breed specific forum as well. There's always TONS of info on health, training, and who the good breeders are as well as who (what lines) to stay FAR away from!


I haven't found a good forum for westies. That's why I'm here . Please let me know if there is one.


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## JeanninePC99 (Jul 24, 2007)

Right now, I think you have to trust your gut, not your heart. I know you want to have a puppy now, but you clearly have reservations about this breeder. You owe it to yourself to hold out a little longer.


There's a breeder in my general region (trying to be vague here) who is well known and who has some pretty big name clients. I landed on her website early on in my dog search and all the bolded, underlined, and italicized instructions and demands threw me through a loop. 

Some of her rules were pretty standard. Some were really strange. I assume her list of rules meant she was a top breeder. In reality, she's a fantastic business woman who has been able to place her dogs in ways that have brought her a lot of publicity and a lot of money. 

The website that had me in awe now has me laughing.


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## bpm30 (Jan 15, 2009)

Just to let you guys know, I put down a deposit for pup who will cost around $2000. He'll be picked up at the end of July and I can't wait to take him in as a part of our family!


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## Wolfiee (Jun 15, 2009)

I agree with most everyone, it does sound iffy. 

Once puppies turn 5 weeks old, they are given the shots, dewormers, and the medications they need to be protected from stuff they can pick up off of the ground or other surfaces. So why they won't let you see them until they are 8 weeks (assuming that's when you're picking them up) sounds like crap to me, to be honest.

I just got my puppy from a VERY good breeder. They allowed us to handle Deezel when he was four weeks old and then let us put him on the ground to play when he turned 5 1/2 weeks (because he had those shots/meds). We had full visiting rights, meaning we could have gone to see him every day if we wanted to (and boy did I want to!), and had the choice of making a down payment or waiting until pick-up day to pay full price.

Also, a good breeder should NEVER sell their puppies over the internet. If their website is simply for advertising and information, that's okay, but if they are selling them on there, no good.

Edit: Oops I apologize for not reading this thread fully ^ ^;


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## Hound (May 20, 2009)

It is a good thing that you did not go directly to doing transactions with the dog breeder. Indeed, the website does seem like it is wants the least exposure of their processes as possible. Dog breeder scams have been very prevalent. These scams work via internet, with breeders based overseas. They usually require check payments, and quite similar to that site you visited, does not require the buyer to view the animal. Be extra cautious about sending your check. Opt for local breeders to be safe.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Price isn't the main factor here, neither is scamming. The main factor is whether that 2,000 dollar "show" dog has healthy, genetically tested parents with good temperaments, not just all its shots and deworming medicine. If you can get one for 500 dollars, that has all that, same thing. Showing isn't the main factor either, health and temperament really are, unless you want to show.



> Also, a good breeder should NEVER sell their puppies over the internet. If their website is simply for advertising and information, that's okay, but if they are selling them on there, no good.


I agree, the breeder should want to talk to you extensively, if not make it a must that they meet you in person. Some ship oversees, but they want references, photos, numbers, and probably want to know you for more than a day, as they care where their puppies go.


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