# Prong collar



## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

Hi everyone, my kelpie dog is 8 months old and we have been doing loose leash walking ever since he was able to walk outside. Standing still doesn't work with him - we tried this for 3 weeks consistently. So we ended up enrolling in training classes and we have been doing the redirect method - as soon as he pulls or feels tension on the collar, we walk the opposite direction. I've been doing this for the past 4-5 months and I'm about to lose my mind. My thumb is bruised from the pressure that he puts on the leash and I swear he is also choking himself by pulling. I do heaps of praise and treats but he is too distracted or uninterested to eat treats or listen to me. I've been doing the walking opposite direction method consistently every single damn walk and sweat like a cow afterwards. I've also tried making myself really interesting on our walks by changing direction often and also start with low distraction area and moving to more distracting area gradually but it's not working. My trainer suggests that I start using a prong collar and wean off it gradually. We tried it today in the obedience class and it worked like a miracle. I had to learn how much pressure, timing to place into this training process and to use heaps of praise and positive stuff as soon as he is redirected etc but what I've learnt was that I often use the leash to guide him rather than my body because I'm so use to him pulling my body almost anticipates it. My trainer said that since my dog pulled so badly, it didn't give me the time to work on my own behaviour / mistakes / habits. The prong allowed me to see what kind of habit I was developing. Even on a prong collar, I was being walked by my dog sometimes rather than owning the walk because I was trying to guide him with the leash. 

So I've got a question now - if positive reinforcement isn't working by itself and prong collar seems to be the right tool, do you guys think I should buy it and gradually wean my dog off it once he learns to stop pulling? Of course, I'm going to couple it with treats and praise but I think it would really help my dog. My trainer observed that he was getting away with pulling and flat collar or harness wasn't enough to correct his behaviour. Since we've been doing positive training for 4-5 months and it's not working, we might need to resort to another method. My dog stopped pulling as soon as he got the prong collar and walked nicely for the whole lesson. Of course, I still have my bad habits to get rid of and being more aware of how I use this tool. The trainer said that without the right approach, even the right tool can go wrong. She said that the prong collar is the right tool for my dog but I need to use it correctly. What do you guys think? I've done some online scavenging and it seems like there's a huge debate about this collar.


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## MTC (Mar 19, 2016)

I had to use one with my dog and continued working with a trainer and now we walk loose leash without it. Just make sure you are using it correctly and that you use it properly and is fitted to your dog.


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## Hermes1 (Jan 3, 2014)

I would not. IMHO prong collars belong in the garbage. What kind of harness are you using for the leash, or are you using a collar? If you are not already doing so, get one of the harnesses where the leash attaches to the dogs chest, out in front. I particularly like this http://www.softouchconcepts.com/index.php/product-53/sense-ation-harness. You indicate you were in training classes, have you talked with the instructor about the problems you are having? He/she may be able to offer additional tips or suggestions for you.


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## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

I do have a front clip harness from ruffwear. I also have been working on loose leash walking in class which is why both trainers (there are two) advised the prong collar after working with me on this issue for 4-5 months. He is perfect with other aspects of obedience training except for loose leash walking.


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Yeah, if it works, get one and use it to help you train him until the day he no longer needs it. Ignore people telling you it's cruel and 'draconian' cause you will get that. You have to do whatever works best for you and your dog. As I have learned, 'pure-positive' techniques are best but are USELESS if they cause you to lose patience and become frustrated. You have to do what works for the dog AND for you as the handler and not worry about the opinions of others. There is a lot of negativity about prong collars these days and while they can definitely be abused they are a fantastic tool if you are responsible and learn how to use them properly. The hardest part is ignoring the haters! It's really unfortunate they have been banned in some places due to people's ignorance.


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

I've used prongs for many years. Never for harsh corrections. No yelps or anything like it. I like to use them withe a tab about 12-18 inches long for this size dog. The tab is used with just your two middle fingers. You can twitch your finger very quickly if the dog starts to move too far forward or lags. You can easily use this with treats and a "watch me" command. Reward and praise when your dog looks at you. Reversing and figure 8 heel is really easy too.

My Aussie wears a harness, 1" nylon collar and a quick release prong. I use a 7 foot lead attached to the harness. Then a short coupler from the harness to the soft collar. The tab goes on the prong with the leash going thru the tab. All this is because my dog can slip the harness in a heartbeat. It gives me a second chance to stop an accident.

Our last class had a Kelpie, 2 Aussies and an Australian Cattle dog among 7 others, all young dogs or adults. We all had prongs and every dog finished the 6 week course heeling tight and happy. There is no reason not to use a prong. Used properly it is much safer and effective. 

High drive and excitable dogs need this for keeping focused. It's a reminder that we are working not playing. Softer dogs simple stay focused all the time if you use praise and rewards.

My system is a bit complicated but I've used this for years. We have a release command that the dog is free to sniff, poop, piddle and wander and pull as hard as she wants. It's exercise. If a situation comes up that I need her at close heel, I use a command that brings her immediately to heel and I can pick up the tab. She is now working and we can walk slow, normal or fast at very close heel and watching me.

As for weaning off the prong, I take it off when riding in the truck and if we are out in the fields otherwise it's on with the tab. I'm not enamored with off leash stuff so I use a 30 foot long line when we are out in the field. Samantha does an explosive recall even if she is busy sniffing something in the field and that's all I ask.

As a side note I put my left hand thru the leash handle and wear a soft leather glove. This makes it nearly impossible for the dog to pull the leash out of your hand. In the winter I've fallen down on the snow and ice and it reassuring that the dog isn't going to be loose. It also lets you have both hands free.


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## griffinflames (Sep 19, 2015)

tange said:


> So I've got a question now - if positive reinforcement isn't working by itself and prong collar seems to be the right tool, do you guys think I should buy it and gradually wean my dog off it once he learns to stop pulling? ... The trainer said that without the right approach, even the right tool can go wrong. She said that the prong collar is the right tool for my dog but I need to use it correctly. What do you guys think? I've done some online scavenging and it seems like there's a huge debate about this collar.


I honestly think that if you use it safely and correctly and with the right intention in mind, it can be a very useful tool. I've read the same concerns online and to be honest, I was one of those people who actually tried the prong on myself first before really applying it to my dog. It can be uncomfortable, but I imagine it's not any more uncomfortable than the flat collar when my dog is pulling so hard he's making horrible choking noises. It's not going to be appropriate for every dog, but it seems like your dog is responding fine to it so far. Eventually, you'll be able to wean your dog off if completely.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

If this is your first dog to train and he is so strong your brain can only focus on staying upright and keeping hold of the leash then the prong under what sounds to be expert guidance seems to be a good idea. Good dog training is proactive but if you are new to training your reactions are going to be after the fact, reactive. 

LLW is really hard. My first dog never got it from years of be a tree, penalty yards, jerks when she was out of position and all that. I learned about 'choose to heel' soon after learning about the clicker and that 'clicked' with her immediately. I walked around the back yard with cookies and after about 5 seconds couldn't lose her. It transferred to the leash and to the usual hikes and walks just fine as well. I do 'be a tree' when dog forgets I am there and pulls to something. Once dog looks at me or sits we move on. Liberal amounts of treats when dog is inside the loose leash's diameter for variable numbers of steps and when dog looks at me after being distracted. Ask your trainer about adding 'choose to heel' in fenced in places to augment the prong. You never know which exercise gets inside the dog's head best, it could help him understand what you want.


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## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your response. He actually does fine in our back yard and just outside of the park because there is an incentive (going outside and playing fetch) but the rest of the walk there and back is no good. So the trainer said that my dog actually knows what I want (LLW)but he's not doing it because he is too excited and has gotten away with some things. I used a clicker too before but it doesn't work. Yes I use it for teaching new tricks and it works fine but not with LLW.


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## Hermes1 (Jan 3, 2014)

tange said:


> I do have a front clip harness from ruffwear. I also have been working on loose leash walking in class which is why both trainers (there are two) advised the prong collar after working with me on this issue for 4-5 months. He is perfect with other aspects of obedience training except for loose leash walking.


It is your dog of course and if you feel comfortable using a prong collar then by all means. There are many trainers who recommend prong collars, but hanging out a dog trainer shingle does not require any training or credentials and while there are many good trainers out there, one has to carefully judge information given. When we got our first Akita we were told by the breeder and a trainer we went to, the only way we would be able to train an Akita to walk on a leash was through the use of a prong collar. We stopped going and without the use of a prong collar, Kenji walks well on a leash. Was it easy, no, did it take time and patience, yes. Regardless of what you do, you might want to read this https://positively.com/dog-training/methods-equipment/training-equipment/choke-and-prong-collars/
In any case best of luck.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I use prong collars, especially with my older dog who tends to pull and lunge has pulled the leash out of my hands before. I don't have a problem with prong collars and they can be a useful tool.

You can also look into head halters or certain harnesses (though I'm not a fan of most of the front clip harnesses because they can hurt a dog's shoulder)


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

tange said:


> I also have been working on loose leash walking in class which is why both trainers (there are two) advised the prong collar after working with me on this issue for 4-5 months.


 I think if you've been working with your trainers on LLW for 4-5 months and there's zero progress, it might be time for a new trainer. 

Using R+ should net some positive results well within that time frame. If it doesn't, especially with not one but two sets of eyes assisting you, there would seem to be a rudimentary misunderstanding of the principles and / or an inability to convey to you, the student, how to effectively apply them. It's not a flaw in the methodology itself, but rather a flaw in it's implementation.

Resorting to a prong collar after such a lengthy time, and seeing instant results. reaffirms they're simply not capable of assisting you in the positive realm. There are plenty of other trainers out there who are much more capable than that.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I think if you've been working with your trainers on LLW for 4-5 months and there's zero progress, it might be time for a new trainer.
> 
> Using R+ should net some positive results well within that time frame. If it doesn't, especially with not one but two sets of eyes assisting you, there would seem to be a rudimentary misunderstanding of the principles and / or an inability to convey to you, the student, how to effectively apply them. It's not a flaw in the methodology itself, but rather a flaw in it's implementation.
> 
> Resorting to a prong collar after such a lengthy time, and seeing instant results. reaffirms they're simply not capable of assisting you in the positive realm. There are plenty of other trainers out there who are much more capable than that.


I agree with all of this.


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## Hermes1 (Jan 3, 2014)

Effisia said:


> I agree with all of this.


 I do too, positive training methods do in fact work given proper execution.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Positive training methods work given proper execution provided they are more rewarding to the dog than pulling - ie: YAY I CHASE SQUIRRELS (for 6 feet/to the end of the leash) or SOMETIMES I GET TO RUN FREE BECAUSE THE LEASH BREAKS/IS YANKED FREE. If the dog finds pulling more rewarding than whatever you have and can control to use as a reward, you either start looking at how to use things like running free/chasing prey as the reward (great idea if possible, but sometimes not) or making pulling less rewarding. Every single no pull product on the market from front clip harnesses to prongs work by making pulling aversive. I'm sure there are ways to work around that, though I won't pretend to know them, but you do need to recognize that. 

Positive only works if your reward is more rewarding than whatever the dog is getting out of the behavior and that's too often overlooked in these discussions, and it hampers problem solving and progress.

And that's coming from someone who doesn't use freaking no reward markers with my dogs, anymore, and fully well knows that you don't have to communicate 'no' to a dog. 

...but admittedly still used a prong collar with success for the better part of a year as my no-pull management tool of choice.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I don't have a problem with a properly used prong collar if a person needs it to manage the dog. But:



Terriermon said:


> As I have learned, 'pure-positive' techniques are best but are USELESS if they cause you to lose patience and become frustrated.


If someone resorts to punishment because they're frustrated, they either need to learn some self-control or they don't need a dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parus said:


> If someone resorts to punishment because they're frustrated, they either need to learn some self-control or they don't need a dog.


Yeah, agreed. If your response to frustration is to lash out or take it out on the dog... there's an issue that you need to work on. 

I do use a prong as I said above - or did for about a year - as a means of management, more than training, but it wasn't "OMG I AM SO FRUSTRATED I AM GOING TO SLAP A PRONG ON YOU AND THEN YOU WILL LEARN". More like a considered decision that it was the best option I could come up with to get through a situation. 

Now, granted, "This isn't working, I need a management tool because I'm getting nowhere and both dog and I are frustrated" okay. 

But if it's that other thing? IF you find yourself seething because you aren't getting results you want or are getting mad at the DOG? Look into some meditation or something, that stuff's not okay.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, agreed. If your response to frustration is to lash out or take it out on the dog... there's an issue that you need to work on.
> 
> I do use a prong as I said above - or did for about a year - as a means of management, more than training, but it wasn't "OMG I AM SO FRUSTRATED I AM GOING TO SLAP A PRONG ON YOU AND THEN YOU WILL LEARN". More like a considered decision that it was the best option I could come up with to get through a situation.
> 
> ...


Yup.

I also think there's a big difference between using a prong because you have a pulling pain-insensitive dog the size of a pony and you need to be able to walk it safely, versus using a prong because you want your normal dog to heel pretty, you know?


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

parus said:


> I don't have a problem with a properly used prong collar if a person needs it to manage the dog. But:
> 
> 
> 
> If someone resorts to punishment because they're frustrated, they either need to learn some self-control or they don't need a dog.


no one's talking about punishment.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Terriermon said:


> no one's talking about punishment.


It's a punishment. The dog pulls and it gets jabbed by pointy pieces of metal. Textbook P+


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, I mean use it or not - and I did - but don't kid yourself. It works because it's punishment. If you're doing that as a considered decision because of lack of options, fine, but if you've reached the point where you're just out of patience/in a hurry/mad at the dog -

It's not saying anything good bout you or your relationship with your dog.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

parus said:


> It's a punishment. The dog pulls and it gets jabbed by pointy pieces of metal. Textbook P+


I think it could also be viewed as R-. In addition to P+. Because the aversive has duration. So the dog pulls and the prong activates = P+. But the ending of the aversive functions as a R- in that the removal of the aversive stimulus would (theoretically) cause the behavior of LLW to increase.


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

Prong collars are punishment, they use increasing pain to stop the dog from pulling. The added pain could have a negative effect on the dog. The walk is more about solid leadership than anything else. I have also found that puppies are very hard to train on the walk. They start off well then fall back as they start to explore the world as they go through different stages of development. Later puppy months through say 6 to 14 months depending on the dog can be difficult times to have good walks. I would recommend a training lead and working on your leadership skills as well as calm behavior before leaving the house. 

Until you are the top dog/pack leader it is likely your dog is going to drag you around. Good behavior on the walk starts at the door with a calm attentive dog. If your leaving the house while your dog is excited then your going to have more problems on the walk. My dogs have to sit at the door with the leash on and wait until I tell them they can come out. If they are over excited before the walk I hang the leash up and walk away with out saying anything. This is the consequence for not being calm. Wait till the dog/s are calm before going on the walk, this will really help their outside behavior. 

Best of luck.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Can you explain exactly what R+ methods you've used to teach LLW? I didn't see that mentioned in your OP.




tange said:


> Thank you everyone for your response. He actually does fine in our back yard and just outside of the park because there is an incentive (going outside and playing fetch) but the rest of the walk there and back is no good. So the trainer said that my dog actually knows what I want (LLW)but he's not doing it because he is too excited and has gotten away with some things. I used a clicker too before but it doesn't work. Yes I use it for teaching new tricks and it works fine but not with LLW.


If your dog is fine in certain situations, then you are raising criteria too quickly. If he's "too excited" he's not going to learn whether you are using "cookies" or "pain."



petpeeve said:


> I think if you've been working with your trainers on LLW for 4-5 months and there's zero progress, it might be time for a new trainer.
> 
> Using R+ should net some positive results well within that time frame. If it doesn't, especially with not one but two sets of eyes assisting you, there would seem to be a rudimentary misunderstanding of the principles and / or an inability to convey to you, the student, how to effectively apply them. It's not a flaw in the methodology itself, but rather a flaw in it's implementation.
> 
> Resorting to a prong collar after such a lengthy time, and seeing instant results. reaffirms they're simply not capable of assisting you in the positive realm. There are plenty of other trainers out there who are much more capable than that.


I completely agree with this ^^^ and the comments about not using P+ / R- out of frustration. I'd strongly suggest you find a force-free / positive reinforcement-based trainer to work with you on this. Your current trainer does not sound like someone who can train without the use of force or intimidation.


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

I agree with cookieface and petpeeve here. 4+ months with a trainer and you should have some more results by now. I don’t like using any method that is pain/punishment based. While these techniques were used far more in the past then today they are truly not needed to bring your dog around. The walk can be hard to teach because it’s less about teaching the dog and more about your leadership. There is no need for P+ / R- training. 

I would try to find a trainer who is also a behaviorist. There are few certifications or classes on dog behavior. I had to get mine in Dog Cognition and Emotion through Duke University. I had to self study in Dog Behavior as the only certifications and degrees are in animal behavior or at least in my area. In addition the courses I did find were in Animal Behavior and few took the newest science in Dog Cognition into account. So just try to find a no force trainer in your area. You should see some results in 1 or 2 sessions. I have success in 1 or 2 sessions when working on the walk. The best way to know they are a behaviorist or have knowledge about dog behavior is if they want to work on your leadership and will teach you why the dog responds to leadership over force. 

I like to use a training lead that is nylon. Training leads are not about punishment when used properly. The dog should understand what you want when you tug the lead before going on the walk. I usually do this in the home first where the dog is familiar with the surroundings. Making the corrections before the dog bolts is important also. You should refocus the dog attention before its pulling you. I have used clickers and whistles also but this requires training with them before going out and can take some more time. Then there is the calm attentive/submissive mind set before you even head out the door. An over excited or excited dog is going to be much harder to control. Another thing I do is run them hard so they are less energetic before doing the walk. Play ball or another strenuous activity before starting the leash training to tire the dog out. They will be more attentive then.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

While I agree with parts of your post, other parts are very confusing:



tjrad said:


> The walk can be hard to teach because it's less about teaching the dog and more about your leadership. There is no need for P+ / R- training.





tjrad said:


> You should see some results in 1 or 2 sessions. I have success in 1 or 2 sessions when working on the walk.


So you learned how to be a better leader in 1 or 2 training sessions? Or was it just your dog learning what was expected? Because you contradict yourself here.



tjrad said:


> The best way to know they are a behaviorist or have knowledge about dog behavior is if they want to work on your leadership and will teach you why the dog responds to leadership over force.


This statement is also confusing. The best way to know someone is a certified behaviorist is if they're more interested in modifying the behavior of the person in the training equation? That's really not true. 

I don't think OP needs a behaviorist. I think OP needs to decrease the punishment and frustration and get involved with a trainer who will teach her how to positively lure a heel or LLW versus how to force her dog to LLW with a prong.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

tjrad said:


> I agree with cookieface and petpeeve here. 4+ months with a trainer and you should have some more results by now. I don’t like using any method that is pain/punishment based. While these techniques were used far more in the past then today they are truly not needed to bring your dog around. The walk can be hard to teach because it’s less about teaching the dog and more about your leadership. There is no need for P+ / R- training.
> 
> I would try to find a trainer who is also a behaviorist. There are few certifications or classes on dog behavior. I had to get mine in Dog Cognition and Emotion through Duke University. I had to self study in Dog Behavior as the only certifications and degrees are in animal behavior or at least in my area. In addition the courses I did find were in Animal Behavior and few took the newest science in Dog Cognition into account. So just try to find a no force trainer in your area. You should see some results in 1 or 2 sessions. I have success in 1 or 2 sessions when working on the walk. The best way to know they are a behaviorist or have knowledge about dog behavior is if they want to work on your leadership and will teach you why the dog responds to leadership over force.
> 
> I like to use a training lead that is nylon. Training leads are not about punishment when used properly. The dog should understand what you want when you tug the lead before going on the walk. I usually do this in the home first where the dog is familiar with the surroundings. Making the corrections before the dog bolts is important also. You should refocus the dog attention before its pulling you. I have used clickers and whistles also but this requires training with them before going out and can take some more time. Then there is the calm attentive/submissive mind set before you even head out the door. An over excited or excited dog is going to be much harder to control. Another thing I do is run them hard so they are less energetic before doing the walk. Play ball or another strenuous activity before starting the leash training to tire the dog out. They will be more attentive then.


If you don't like methods that involve punishment, then why are you tugging on the lead? And, actually, why would you be tugging on the lead "before going on the walk." ??? 

And while I do agree that you should wait for & therefore *reward* calm behavior before & during the walk, it really has nothing to do with 'submission'.

It is a very good idea to have a vigorous play session before heading out to work on LLW, though. Working with a slightly tired dog is definitely easier.


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

I knew this one was coming. Using the lead properly doesn't hurt the dog. Using it incorrectly can. I said I didn't like to use it, not that I didn't use it since you want to argue semantics in addition it's apparent that you didn't read everything before commenting. Since I was clear about training the dog in an familiar environment to understand the tugs. 

But to clarify anyway just in case there is some misunderstanding: Most people have no idea how to use a training lead properly with little to no tension because they don't know how to train the dog to understand the correction. The correction isn't a forceful tug with intent to hurt or harm, it's a light tug to get the dogs attention nothing more. If the dog is pulling or hurting its self on a lead then you need to either work on the lead training or try another method. The correction is used to redirect the dogs attention not hurt or punish it. Just like a redirection tap on the side which is extremely hard to do for most people when walking. 

What I was trying to say is you need to do some in house training to teach the dog what the tug means before you go on the walk. Which I did say, you are teaching the dog the correction before you go out and risk the dog bolting on you and truly putting pressure on the lead. 

Since this dog owner has spent 4 months trying to train his dog to walk and is now considering a prong collar I think some lead training would be far more appropriate. Remember what we are talking about here. Many dogs learn the walk with redirection tugs with just a normal collar and lease which is my preferred method. Lets not loose sight on what we are talking about here.

About submission, it's the mindset of the dog, calm attentive behavior is submissive behavior.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

tjrad said:


> I knew this one was coming. Using the lead properly doesn't hurt the dog. Using it incorrectly can. I said I didn't like to use it, not that I didn't use it since you want to argue semantics in addition it's apparent that you didn't read everything before commenting. Since I was clear about training the dog in an familiar environment to understand the tugs.
> 
> But to clarify anyway just in case there is some misunderstanding: Most people have no idea how to use a training lead properly with little to no tension because they don't know how to train the dog to understand the correction. *The correction isn't a forceful tug with intent to hurt or harm, it's a light tug to get the dogs attention nothing more. If the dog is pulling or hurting its self on a lead then you need to either work on the lead training or try another method. The correction is used to redirect the dogs attention not hurt or punish it. Just like a redirection tap on the side which is extremely hard to do for most people when walking. *
> 
> ...


If you think calm, attentive behavior is submissive, then you need to do a bit of updated reading about current dog training research and methodology. 

Bolded - This is all +P training. Simply tugging back on a leash doesn't teach a dog how to LLW. Neither does a "redirection tap" on the side. These aren't corrections. They don't teach a dog the CORRECT way to behave. These are punishments.

You say _"Most people have no idea how to use a training lead properly with little to no tension because they don't know how to train the dog to understand the correction."_ Add yourself to that list. I taught LLW and heeling through luring (+R) and not tugging on a leash (+P).


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

Sorry to be confusing, I'm a trainer and I can usually get a dog trained in 1 or 2 sessions with a client to do the walk. I focus on the owners leadership skills, and calm submissive behavior from the dog before the walk in order to help them have control during the walk. Dog's follow leaders they lead followers. In many cases lure a heel doesn't work unless the dog sees you as the leader. For those of us who are naturally the leaders with our dogs it seems simple but in many cases it's the owners failure to be the leader that is really causing the problems, and then other owners can't understand why the methods worked with their dog/s and not others. 

Most dog issues are caused by the owners not the dog, so modifying the owners behavior in a way that the dog now understands them is a very successful method. For instance when a dog is excessively barking and the owner is telling the dog to stop (usually yelling) the dog thinks your barking with it and you (the owner) is reinforcing the dogs behavior. The owner must change his or her behavior into a behavior the dog understands. In the wild submissive pack dogs (followers) will bark to alert at possible danger. The pack Leader will look and then move on, the dog understands with out verbal command that the leader is not concerned and they will just move on with the leader. However most excessive barking issues are caused by dogs that do not feel their owners are the leaders so they take the protective leadership role.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

tjrad said:


> Sorry to be confusing, I'm a trainer and I can usually get a dog trained in 1 or 2 sessions with a client to do the walk. I focus on the owners leadership skills, and calm submissive behavior from the dog before the walk in order to help them have control during the walk. Dog's follow leaders they lead followers. In many cases lure a heel doesn't work unless the dog sees you as the leader. For those of us who are naturally the leaders with our dogs it seems simple but in many cases it's the owners failure to be the leader that is really causing the problems, and then other owners can't understand why the methods worked with their dog/s and not others.


How, exactly, does one establish themselves as the "leader" of their dog?


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

No it does not, nor did I say it did. I'm done debating with you since I can't say anything to change your mind and you will say nothing to change mine since my methods are successful. When my dog is sitting calmly with it's eyes off me waiting for me to make a move then it's calm and attentive waiting for her leader to make the next move. This is submissive behavior. If you don't agree then I'm sorry.


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

"How, exactly, does one establish themselves as the "leader" of their dog?" You are obviously the leader since all your dogs are doing what you want. For many it's natural for others they need to learn how to use their body language and project their confidence and intent in ways the dog understands. I can't believe that you don't understand the leadership principles.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Leadership has nothing to do with LLW and your dog doesn't need to be shut down (aka calm submissive) to walk nicely. I don't want my dogs to be submissive or to wait for me to make a move - I want them to experiment, try new things, have some initiative.

Why teach LLW with tugs instead of verbal or contextual cues?


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

Okay I will shut up now, since you too are not PAYING attention to the conversion. We are talking about a dog in my understanding that DIDN'T respond to those methods. If you want to pick a fight with someone and critique them unfairly out of context go find a family member.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I agree that the 'leader' nonsense is just that - nonsense - but I think the tug being discussed MIGHT be akin to silky leash, where you teach the dog to move toward leash pressure/relieve it. 

I could be wrong about that, but that is actually a technique and isn't aversive.


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

Okay I give up I came to help but you people are unreal, enjoy your forum and lack of understanding. If you think leadership doesn't play a role in how your dog responds to you then i have nothing further to say.

Good bye, my first post has been a misery. Thank you


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

tjrad said:


> No it does not, nor did I say it did. I'm done debating with you since I can't say anything to change your mind and you will say nothing to change mine since my methods are successful. When my dog is sitting calmly with it's eyes off me waiting for me to make a move then it's calm and attentive waiting for her leader to make the next move. This is submissive behavior. If you don't agree then I'm sorry.


Neither myself nor modern behavioral science agrees with you that that is submissive behavior.

As a professional trainer, the words you use matter. And you have to understand that 'submission' is a loaded word, and its counterpoint is 'dominance'. So are you dominant over your dog? 

There's a difference between being viewed as a source of rewards and praise that your dog actively WANTS to engage with, and being a dominant leader to a submissive dog who is deferring to you because of fear of consequences if deferment isn't given.

If you are a source of treats and praise, don't refer to your dog as submissive. Your dog is well trained. And if you are a dominant leader, then your training philosophy is based on debunked and old school methods that have been repeatedly proven to be harmful to the relationships between humans and dogs.

Again, this is an internet forum. The words you use matter.



tjrad said:


> "How, exactly, does one establish themselves as the "leader" of their dog?" You are obviously the leader since all your dogs are doing what you want. For many it's natural for others they need to learn how to use their body language and project their confidence and intent in ways the dog understands. I can't believe that you don't understand the leadership principles.


I'm not a leader, nor are my dogs submissive to me. My puppy frequently walks up to me and tries to sit on my head. He lays on top of me in my own bed. He stands in front of me when I walk towards him, walks out doors before me, eats before I do, drools in my water glasses, launches himself at my head while we're playing, bites my arms, etc. 

My dogs do not DEFER to me in any sense of the term. We are partners. We work together. When I ask my dogs to do something, they do it because they know something is in it for them and they like training because I have made it fun and engaging. Not because they worry about what repercussions may come their way if they don't listen to my commands.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

tjrad said:


> Okay I give up I came to help but you people are unreal, enjoy your forum and lack of understanding. If you think leadership doesn't play a role in how your dog responds to you then i have nothing further to say.
> 
> Good bye, my first post has been a misery. Thank you


You have joined a forum full of highly educated and informed dog people, many of them professional dog trainers in their own right. You would do well to stay and learn from them. If you did, you would understand that dominance in dogs has been thoroughly debunked for many years now, and does not exist between dogs and humans. I haven't the time now to dig up the many threads and links to documented evidence of this, to actual dog behaviourists with phds in animal behaviour, but if you do a quick forum search on Cesar Milan, you'll find them very quickly.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

tjrad said:


> Okay I give up I came to help but you people are unreal, enjoy your forum and lack of understanding. If you think leadership doesn't play a role in how your dog responds to you then i have nothing further to say.
> 
> Good bye, my first post has been a misery. Thank you


Look. I lead my dogs because I have thumbs and a bigger brain - and because I'm generally the human. I decide what they eat, when they eat, where they go, what they learn, when they go out, and basically 99% of other aspects in their lives because, well, they're dogs and I'm a person. That's fairly self-evident.

But most people who spout leadership crap are fans of millian and believe leadership comes with 'dominance' and proving dominance, and from the idea that the dog is some kind of threat to their ego, and the dog secretly wants to take over leadership and is just looking for a moment of weakness to walk all over you. Then those people uss all that crap as an excuse to alpha roll, be rough with, withhold treats/reject positive methods, and generally set up a relationship of conflict. 

I'm really very sorry your ideas weren't well received here, but overall we're not newbies with our first dogs, and a good many of us compete and title dogs in various venues and activities, so no. We're not going to buy the tv sound-byte crap that is either:
a-) meaningless 
or
b-) harmful.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Look. I lead my dogs because I have thumbs and a bigger brain, but most people who spout leadership crap are fans of millian and believe leadership comes with 'dominance' and proving dominance, and from the idea that the dog is some kind of threat to their ability to lead, and the *dog secretly wants to take over leadership and is just looking for a moment of weakness to walk all over you* and then uses all that crap as an excuse to alpha roll, be rough with, with-hold treats, and generally set up a relationship of conflict.
> 
> I'm really very sorry your ideas weren't well received here, but overall we're not newbies with our first dogs, and a good many of us compete and title dogs in various venues and activities, so no. We're not going to buy the tv sound-byte crap that is either:
> a-) meaningless
> ...


I know my four are sitting at home, plotting against me so that they can take the leadership role and stop submitting to my every whim!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm always skeptical of people who come here and spout advice but can't follow it up with any -real- things to do.

"Be the leader" What does that mean, in real, practical terms, involving verbs?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I'm always skeptical of people who come here and spout advice but can't follow it up with any -real- things to do.
> 
> "Be the leader" What does that mean, in real, practical terms, involving verbs?


Verbs - the downfall of mystical trainers


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## tjrad (Apr 4, 2016)

Being the leader in simple terms means you have taken the leadership role with your dog. This is achieved by understanding how your dog thinks. Using body language and calm behavior you can simply take control of the situation. Being the leader is not hard unless you’re humanizing your dog and applying an Anthropomorphic approach to the dog. To say that your dog is responding simply because there is something to get out of it is likely not the reason. Your confidence and leadership gains the dogs respect as a leader. Unlike wolves Professor Hares research has show the in proto dogs and feral dog packs it is not the most strong or biggest male that takes the leadership role. His research has shown that in feral dogs and proto dog pacts it’s the calmest more friendly dog will get the leadership role in the pack. Taking this into consideration when training a dog being a leader for your dog is calm and confident behavior on the humans’ part since science has shown that this is how dogs behave in packs. 

Since dogs are not human and do not reason like humans It’s important to understand how they reason. According to the most recent research and research that is being expanded on now by Professor Hare and his colleagues at Duke University, dogs have amazing cognitive abilities. They understand gesturing by humans to help solve problems. In addition they are capable of using inferential reasoning. Until recently it was thought that only human beings were capable of this. Even apes do not show the ability to understand gesturing or inferentially reason. Where dogs do repeatedly in lab experiments. This shows that dogs are extremely adaptable to situations and respond to a vast array of signals by humans.

In addition dogs show great cunning and emotion and have scored very high on empathy tests.

It is also now believed that the most likely reason dogs are domesticated is they went through a process thousands of years ago called self domestication. This was a highly debated theory but makes the most sense as ancient man would not likely take in wolves and spend 10 or 20 generations domesticating them. Dog’s self domesticated for the mutual benefit of humans. Recently self domestication is being seen the Florida deer population. The greatest biological research in dog domestication was done in Russia on foxes. The control group was kept away from humans and the experimental group was chosen by the friendliest of the foxes. Over 50 years the foxes were bread and the ones being domesticated showed new coloring, floppy ears and the ability to understand gesturing. The control group did not have these traits. 

So taking all of this into account we can say that those who have debunked the idea that dogs do not respond to the leadership type role are wrong. They do and it’s been proven both in observation and lab experiments, simply because they have the ability to adapt and understand other methods does not mean that engaging a dogs instinctual behavior is wrong. 

I did not learn what I have learned through watching a few episodes of the Dog Whisperer and I frankly don’t agree with some of his methods. However, he is spot on when it comes to how dogs think and what makes them happy. Simply because you don’t agree with him or think what he’s doing is rubbish doesn’t mean he’s wrong or that you’re wrong they are just different methods. 

I’m always open for a good exchange of knowledge but that isn’t what happened here. I was barraged because I was new to the forum and you made assumptions that what I know was gained by simply watching a TV show. I however refuse to be attacked after spending a much of my life training dogs for the average dog owner. Then spending several years studying dog behavior and science to only be bashed by a bunch of pompous arrogant dog trainers that think their way is the only way and prove it by semantics’ and nit picking my post in an attempt to raise themselves above me by trying to make me look ignorant. 

I was looking forward to a long relationship with dog owners and trainers in an exchange of ideas. However, every time I get around other trainers it’s nothing but heated arguments about whose better or how dumb another trainer is. However it’s obvious that I have nothing to offer here because I could never be as great a trainer or behaviorist as you people are. 

I hope this answer is complete enough for you, if not I will be sure to publish a book in future before joining a forum.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Verbs, dude. "Become a leader by leading" tells me nothing. What, specifically, using action words like "run" or "give" or "say" do you need to do to become a leader to your dog?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Amaryllis said:


> Verbs, dude. "Become a leader by leading" tells me nothing. What, specifically, using action words like "run" or "give" or "say" do you need to do to become a leader to your dog?


I'm afraid tj won't be able to answer that, as he has been permanently removed from this "group of pompous, arrogant dog trainers". It's doubtful he would be able to answer your question though, even if he were still able to post.

Hopefully we will now also be able to return to the topic the OP actually posted about, and try to help him with his dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Well, darn it, and here I was ready with links showing that an "enthusiastic" heel is possible.

Oh well, in case anyone else is interested, here they are:

Rally O heeling
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96U7ugEd4us

Schutzhund heeling:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb9smDPIfok

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XBtAOB4o9I - this one has a prong on but is not scared of it.

Also NONE of these dogs are shut down or suppressed, that is not what a "true" heel is.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

I'm not a trainer or very sophisticated about training. I have tried prong collars on two dogs, both Labradors (with supervision from a trainer). The first caught on IMMEDIATELY. She never pulled once the thing was on her, and she only wore it for about two weeks. She hasn't pulled since, and she's now 11.5 years. The second, a grand-daughter of the first, completely ignored the collar and pulled against it to the point where I couldn't stand to use the thing. I was afraid she would ended up with raw sores on her neck from pulling against the thing so I gave it up and went back to the slow method. Dog #2 still pulls pretty badly when she sees another dog or a recumbent bike, but no longer bothers with deer or squirrels or armadillos. She was never inclined to pull except when there was something she wanted to get.

Point being, some of it depends on the dog's temperament. 

Note, I don't think prong collars have to be cruel. Sure, they can be, if you pop them. But there's no value to doing that. Punishment, maybe, but of a form that the dog is in control and can, if it is so minded, entirely avoid the punishment by not pulling. Not all dogs catch on to this.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Hopefully we will now also be able to return to the topic the OP actually posted about, and try to help him with his dog.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5il8ym0ymY

- may need tailoring / tweaking, to suit handler and dog
- build a strong history of reinforcement for general position, first
- gradually add clockwise direction, then straight line, then with halts and simple turns etc
- add leash to the equation once dog is proficient at off-leash.
- also add distractions gradually, ie: taking it to the driveway, sidewalk, trails
- keep Rate of Reinforcement very high in the beginning, and at each increased level of distraction.
- as dog gains more experience, reduce RoR slowly so that it's random and or intermittent
- attention / eye contact is not necessary; basic position and not pulling is the goal


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

My general feeling is that if a dog is strong enough relative to the handler to need a prong as a management tool, the control offered by the prong is kind of illusory. The dog could just pull through the pain if so inclined and either yank the leash away or pull/knock the handler over, given something sufficiently high-value to make it worth doing so, and I've seen dogs do just that. So I think it's important, even if one is finding the prong collar effective, to continue working with the dog on heeling and/or leash walking skills using other methods, building additional motivation besides pain avoidance. 

I taught my big (110 lb) guy to LLW by teaching him to heel off-leash with R+ methods. Basically, developing "heel" command as a counter for when he does feel temptation to pull, and also building obedience that doesn't depend on me physically overpowering him. He is a beast so I need him to be consistently voluntarily compliant.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parus said:


> My general feeling is that if a dog is strong enough relative to the handler to need a prong as a management tool, the control offered by the prong is kind of illusory. The dog could just pull through the pain if so inclined and either yank the leash away or pull/knock the handler over, given something sufficiently high-value to make it worth doing so, and I've seen dogs do just that. So I think it's important, even if one is finding the prong collar effective, to continue working with the dog on heeling and/or leash walking skills using other methods, building additional motivation besides pain avoidance.
> 
> I taught my big (110 lb) guy to LLW by teaching him to heel off-leash with R+ methods. Basically, developing "heel" command as a counter for when he does feel temptation to pull, and also building obedience that doesn't depend on me physically overpowering him. He is a beast so I need him to be consistently voluntarily compliant.


Uh, no. It actually does limit their ability to pull through the pain because it affects the dog's leverage by putting the force of their pull on smaller surface area. Could the dog knock the handler over? Sure, but - that's nothing to do with pulling and the problems aren't related most of the time. Pulling is a fairly straight forward issue, not a dog desperate to escape one. 

Your ability to train your dog to heel doesn't translate across, either. I've taught a lot of dogs, some of them very large, to heel or loose leash walk beautifully but AGAIN:

POSITIVE WORKS BY HAVING A REWARD THE DOG VALUES MORE THAN WHAT IT GETS FROM THE BEHAVIOR YOU WANT TO STOP. IF THAT DOG FINDS THE ACTION MORE REWARDING THAN WHAT YOU CAN OFFER/HAVE, THEN THE ONLY OPTION IS TO MAKE THE BEHAVIOR YOU WANT TO END LESS REWARDING. 

I don't love prongs. But I think trying to make them ineffective or imply you can train one 110lb dog so it applies to them all is kind of smoke-screening and ends up making people frustrated and discount everything you have to say, because you're ignoring very fundamental challenges people face. 

How do you control a large dog who finds value in chasing squirrels, even 6 feet or at the end of the leash, or even the action of pulling more rewarding than treats/toys/praise, WITHOUT involving an aversive? How do you control a large dog on a slippery surface when they are prone to lunging/pulling behavior based on X, Y, or Z trigger? What is the answer, with verbs, for what you would do?

And remember; All no pull devices work by making pulling aversive. 

That's not a snarky challenge. I have some thoughts, I've used some of them (I have also used a prong), but talking theories and generalities without actionable content doesn't work when it's positive people doing the talking anymore than when it's someone saying 'be a leader'.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Uh, no. It actually does limit their ability to pull through the pain because it affects the dog's leverage by putting the force of their pull on smaller surface area. Could the dog knock the handler over? Sure, but - that's nothing to do with pulling and the problems aren't related most of the time. Pulling is a fairly straight forward issue, not a dog desperate to escape one.
> 
> Your ability to train your dog to heel doesn't translate across, either. I've taught a lot of dogs, some of them very large, to heel or loose leash walk beautifully but AGAIN:
> 
> ...


this is the exact issue I was having with Lincoln, he found pulling more rewarding no matter what I did. I didnt want to use a prong on him because he has such long hair and I could see it getting caught all up in it LOL ... so I got him a choke chain and it works very well. 

I, nor anyone else should be judged for using an "aversive" tool, especially if they are doing like the OP and working with (what seems to me to be) a knowledgeable trainer, its not like they got mad at their dog one day and decided to slap a prong on him.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have only used a prong collar on one dog and that was Kris, my Dobe. She had lots of Obedience training and knew what heeling was but the first winter when she was just over a year, it was really icy out and I used it for a while just for the extra security it gave me walking her when it was slippery out as she would not pull into it for anything. I quit using it once the footing was safe and I could walk her with just a martingale or a flat collar on her. I think they have their uses just like a choke chain if it is used properly. If they are still pulling when wearing them, they are not being used properly.


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## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

Wow, I returned from a 3 day trip and did not realise there was so much debate happening here. Thanks everyone - although some of it didn't actually answer my question directly, it was interesting to see people's take on positive and aversive training. I honestly think this leadership stuff doesn't hundred percent translate into loose leash walking. My dog is amazing and I don't have to "dominate" him for him to listen to me because I always use positive reinforcement (sits and looks at me before eat, drink or open the door fall a walk/ calmly walks on leash back and forth in our backyard before going out/ always comes during recall/ sits before going through any door until realise command, sits for all his treats and rewards, never jumps onto people and objects unless told otherwise, learns to settle outside and doesn't bark endlessly or become destructive). He is a damn well trained and well behaved dog for his age - 8 months - and I make it no secret that he is amazing but looking at me for guidance and me being calm does not resolve his LLW outside the house. He is strong for me and when he bolts on leash my arms get injured and he chokes. Yes I do the gentle tug thing the above posts mentioned and no I don't yank it but strong enough to catch his attention and walk the opposite way. I use my body to encourage him to come to me and treat him when he walks next to me. But as soon as I turn the other way (going forward), he pulls again. Today I almost had a mental breakdown on our walk in the rain forest on our holiday trip with him because he kept on pulling and bolting on the leash. He was wearing a front clip harness. I was still consistent with the quick pop and going opposite direction method like always but a 5 minute walk took up to 15 minutes because he just couldn't walk more than 5 steps without pulling and I had to walk backwards again. 

No treats till this day have worked. I've tried chicken breast, roasted beef and chicken shredded, kabana, peanut butter, cheese, bacon, just to name a few. 

I'm going to continue loose leash walking exercise using positive training but he is getting stronger by the day and if nothing else works before next school holiday (June), I'm going to have to consider a prong collar for his and my safety. I've double checked everything about my timing and stuff. My trainers said that my timing is perfect so it's not like I'm redirecting him at the wrong time and it's not like he doesn't understand what I want from him. Yes one of my trainers is a behaviourist. As some of you suggested, I may need to find another trainer when my membership is done but they use positive methods all the time so I don't see other trainers doing anything different. It was only in my situation that my trainers suggested me using a prong collar and they said I shouldn't need it for more than a few months before I wean it off and can walk on normal collar again. I can also understand why loose leash walking is so hard for dogs, particularly when they hit this 8 months age. He has his brain fart moments these days (seems like he doesn't hear me when I tell him to sit or do something) but I'm trying to remain as consistent and patient as possible. It's really hard in reality though - I feel like crying some days because he just can't walk properly on leash.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

It is frustrating when you don't see results from your training efforts. I've been there - with LLW and many other cues. Look at the success you've had - from your own words, you have a fabulously well-trained young pup! That's a great accomplishment!

What R+ methods have you used? How have you tried to teach him what you want while walking on the leash? 

I really think you're expecting too much, too fast. In one of your earlier comments, you said he's great in your yard - fabulous! Build on that. Create a strong reinforcement history there, then slowly add distractions. Work on engagement and attention. Reinforce uncued check ins. 



> I use my body to encourage him to come to me and treat him when he walks next to me.


It's possible that he thinks the behavior is lunge > go back to get the treat OR he thinks he only needs to walk on a LL when he's been cued. What you want is for walking on a LLW to be the best thing ever with or without a cue. You want to start by reinforcing any LLW (even if it's just two steps out your front door), not wait for him to pull / lunge and then punish > reinforce.

Check out the video petpeeve posted above. It's a great method for teaching LLW (and a more formal heel).

If you have good timing for delivering punishment, you have good timing for delivering reinforcement.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

The single best method I have used was just standing like a tree. I stood there perfectly still for 5 minutes one day waiting for him to stop pulling. When he finally did it was a fluke because a leaf blew at him, and we got two whole steps before he was back to pulling. We took some very short, but long walks in those days. He still pulls under certain circumstances, such as OMG PERSON AND DOG and when we go to new places, but he is only 30 lbs, young, and his brain turns back on much quicker than it did when we first started leash training. Now he knows when I stop he better get his little booty in line or we're not going anywhere. The changing direction thing never worked because then he got excited to go in the new direction.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Personally, I see nothing wrong with trying a prong collar. Sounds like you are sensitive enough that you'll pick up quickly on whether or not the tool is working and whether or not your dog is doing himself harm by pulling against the prong.

In my experience, kelpies are determined but sensitive dogs and very intelligent. It wouldn't surprise me if a prong collar will result in your boy training himself not to pull in short order. You can always ditch it if it doesn't give the result you're looking for. 

Of course, best to get help on fitting the thing . . . and NEVER NEVER snap it. But I think you know this.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't have any strong opinions on the prong collar but do not know enough about its use to recommend them. And for better or for worse I won't be trained on their use because my organization is positive only.

THAT SAID. I am not telling you to use the prong collar or not. But one thing to think about is why your dog is pulling. Does he love treats at home but only ignore them outside? Or is he generally not so into food? I have an anecdote and understandably your situation may be radically different, but here goes. I had a dog in class that would pull her owner like she was a freight train. She loves food at home but would ignore or spit out pieces of hotdog and cheese in the training room and outside. She was so overstimulated by the other people and dogs in the room and would completely ignore her owner's words and attempts at getting focus. The point is, pulling was the SYMPTON here, not the problem. The problem was this dog couldn't think enough to work. I had the owner just sit in her seat silently and ignore her dog, marking and rewarding the exact moment her dog decided to refocus on her. Eventually, her dog did. And when it was on the dog's terms, she would eat a little treat before being distracted again. Repeat ad nauseum. By the end of the first class her dog would consistently take treats in class even though they were unable to work on the specific exercises. Moving outside for practice, the dog would 'lose it' again. The owner repeated the exercise and within a couple minutes the dog would at least take treats from a fixed position outside. No walking yet. By the third class the dog was consistently taking treats in general, though occasionally the owner would have to go back to the wait-for-focus exercise. But ANY attempt at taking a step meant the dog would completely lose interest in treats. I suggested using forward movement as the reward. Move forward and any time she pulled, which was immediately, stop and walk the other way (I know you tried this already OP). At first they were literally spinning circles. But at the end of class they got a little bit of distance and the dog would take treats again. In the last few classes, they were working on LLW the same as everyone else in the class with the dog reliably taking treats and walking large distances loose leash.

Admittedly I haven't seen as much as my coworkers have, yet. But I am not exaggerating when I say that I have YET to see a dog not learn how to LLW through a combination of positive training and tools such as head halters and front clip harnesses, which are the tools my shelter allows. Yes, some dogs may respond more poorly to a head halter than to a prong. But then again we don't just slap'em on the dogs either. But this is every single dog that has spent some significant time in the shelter, plus dogs in our training classes. (Our volunteers are required to train our shelter dogs.) 

Wait, actually... I had a Malinois/X in class who was maybe the only student so far that I did not see make progress in a few weeks AND he was on a head halter. I was perplexed. Finally, weeks into the class the owners told me they used 'different' methods at home. It turns out they were trying to train LLW our way for one hour a week, and at home they used a prong or choke collar (I forget) and would pop him. They were the only folks who I saw made zero progress for this behavior and it was a combination of inconsistency and improper use of tools. Sadly, they ended up returning the dog. (But happily, he found another home almost immediately and now lives happily ever after).


Point being: You may want to think about why your dog is pulling because the root of the problem may be overexcitement or something else. Will your dog follow cues at all outside or is it just the pulling? Also, simply trying to turn in the other direction when your dog pulls *on its own* is not enough. I think LLW can be a pretty complex thing and although most of the time treats will do it, there are cases where you need a combination of tools in your belt and the knowledge of when to use them. I think in many situations, getting some degree of focus is the first step and everything else will follow.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Canyx said:


> I don't have any strong opinions on the prong collar but do not know enough about its use to recommend them. And for better or for worse I won't be trained on their use because my organization is positive only.
> 
> THAT SAID. I am not telling you to use the prong collar or not. But one thing to think about is why your dog is pulling. Does he love treats at home but only ignore them outside? Or is he generally not so into food? I have an anecdote and understandably your situation may be radically different, but here goes. I had a dog in class that would pull her owner like she was a freight train. She loves food at home but would ignore or spit out pieces of hotdog and cheese in the training room and outside. She was so overstimulated by the other people and dogs in the room and would completely ignore her owner's words and attempts at getting focus. The point is, pulling was the SYMPTON here, not the problem. The problem was this dog couldn't think enough to work. I had the owner just sit in her seat silently and ignore her dog, marking and rewarding the exact moment her dog decided to refocus on her. Eventually, her dog did. And when it was on the dog's terms, she would eat a little treat before being distracted again. Repeat ad nauseum. By the end of the first class her dog would consistently take treats in class even though they were unable to work on the specific exercises. Moving outside for practice, the dog would 'lose it' again. The owner repeated the exercise and within a couple minutes the dog would at least take treats from a fixed position outside. No walking yet. By the third class the dog was consistently taking treats in general, though occasionally the owner would have to go back to the wait-for-focus exercise. But ANY attempt at taking a step meant the dog would completely lose interest in treats. I suggested using forward movement as the reward. Move forward and any time she pulled, which was immediately, stop and walk the other way (I know you tried this already OP). At first they were literally spinning circles. But at the end of class they got a little bit of distance and the dog would take treats again. In the last few classes, they were working on LLW the same as everyone else in the class with the dog reliably taking treats and walking large distances loose leash.
> 
> ...


Can I get a like button for this?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

To me being the "leader" means:

controlling everything they need and value ... as the human, I am their "leader" by default, I dont need to shove them under my thumb to prove that, they know that I am, they are not stupid.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

tange said:


> Wow, I returned from a 3 day trip and did not realise there was so much debate happening here. Thanks everyone - although some of it didn't actually answer my question directly, it was interesting to see people's take on positive and aversive training. I honestly think this leadership stuff doesn't hundred percent translate into loose leash walking. My dog is amazing and I don't have to "dominate" him for him to listen to me because I always use positive reinforcement (sits and looks at me before eat, drink or open the door fall a walk/ calmly walks on leash back and forth in our backyard before going out/ always comes during recall/ sits before going through any door until realise command, sits for all his treats and rewards, never jumps onto people and objects unless told otherwise, learns to settle outside and doesn't bark endlessly or become destructive). He is a damn well trained and well behaved dog for his age - 8 months - and I make it no secret that he is amazing but looking at me for guidance and me being calm does not resolve his LLW outside the house. I feel like crying some days because he just can't walk properly on leash.


Sigh. Tange, I'm going to have to call you out on...or rather burst your bubble in how you are portraying your dog. You insist that he is amazing, and in your words, "damn well trained" because he is not. You truly need to accept a reality check on this because you also say he is hurting your arm and you feel like crying. A "damn-well trained dog" doesn't make you want to cry. That being said, just because your dog does all of the great things inside your house that you say he does like look at you before eating and drinking, sit before they go outside...everybody can read what you wrote...do you really understand? My dogs don't do ANY of that, nor would I want them to necessarily...they go get a drink of water when they want, they habitually go outside in the backyard before me, etc, without having to LOOK at me. But they DO know not to pull on a leash.

I know you've gotten video clips on the whole "choose to heel" thing, but I don't think this is about "heeling" it is simply an issue of your dog pulling your arm out and making you want to cry. You say you've "double checked your timing and stuff" and your trainers have assured you your timing is "perfect." I think you want this entire forum to tell you that resorting to a prong collar is "okay" because it is about "your safety." You say that standing still "doesn't work" that was your original post. I'm truly wondering, not only how committed you were to that, but what your state of mind was DURING that. 

I've known TONS of dogs over many, many years of training other people's dogs, and my own dogs that had personality quirks or bad beginnings where in certain circumstances positive reinforcement didn't work because of over-excitement and "treats" had no bearing. Unfortunately, in recent years, one would be hard-pressed to find google searches which truly define ALL of Skinner's work on behavior because of the term "negative punishment." You can't successfully train a dog using positive reinforcement without also employing negative punishment. What does that mean? If you take a dog that doesn't know how to sit, and use positive reinforcement to teach it to sit...and it realizes that whenever it does sit, he gets reinforced...whenever he DOESN'T sit and you withhold the treat, THAT is negative punishment. As awful as it sounds, that is what it is.

CPT Jack offers: How do you control a large dog who finds value in chasing squirrels, even 6 feet or at the end of the leash, or even the action of pulling more rewarding than treats/toys/praise, WITHOUT involving an aversive? How do you control a large dog on a slippery surface when they are prone to lunging/pulling behavior based on X, Y, or Z trigger? What is the answer, with verbs, for what you would do?"

It is a valid question. But it is also, from my experience one that neglects the WILL of the owner, and this is where things get dicey, and why Tj was banned from this list. And, I forget who said it, but someone said WORDS MATTER. So Tj was on the whole "leadership" kick and yeah...words...dominance, leadership, on and on...but BASICALLY what I think this list sometimes misses is the important concept of negative punishment because the OMG the God-forbid the word "punishment" is used. But positive reinforcement goes hand in hand with negative punishment, which merely is withholding something that decreased a behavior. So when you've successfully taught your dog to sit using positive reinforcement, and two weeks later you ask him to sit and he doesn't....withholding the treat IS negative punishment. Face it, SOME people will FREAK out when their positively trained dog suddenly refuses to sit and they scramble and give even MORE treats and the DOG is in heaven...they have successfully trained the owner and not the other way around. All because the owner was either too weak or read on the internet somewhere that "punishment" was bad. So in that respect, I disagree with CPT Jack in that I don't think you necessarily need an adversive to stop an unwanted behavior.

Back to Tange and her 8 month old puppy who is "damn-well" trained. I doubt he/she was committed enough to negative punishment when she said she "tried" the standing still aspect of positive reinforcement. I know people, and I am one of those people who will withhold positive reinforcement for as long as it takes to allow the whole "negative punishment" aspect to RIGHTLY make it clear to the dog nothing in life is for free. I've either owned/bred/rescued dogs who were complete idiots when they wanted to ignore EVERY aspect of training I "thought" they knew while on a walk and they saw something they wanted, and whatever treats I have aren't as interesting as what "they" want. I'll "be a tree" or stand right where I'm at for an hour, if that is what it takes for the dog to realize it WON'T get positively reinforced for pulling me. Having that resolve early on makes the training process a lot quicker. Tange, unfortunately, apparently has trainers who want to blow smoke up....well...they aren't doing her any favors. 

I used prong collar once, on a breed with a lot more mass than a kelpie. Yeah, it worked. But years down the road, I now know I never needed it to begin with. Still have the damn thing, hanging on a peg with simple slip leads. Some people on here don't see a problem, and that's fine. But I've trained a lot of people in public classes over the years and have seen horror stories. Kelpies in general are a high-energy type breed...even obsessive...I can only say that because most people agree that you aren't that experienced, and seem to want a quick fix, a Kelpie is not a good candidate for a prong with an amateur. He is now 8 months old....is he neutered? If not, now may not be the right time for ANY sort of heavy training, except FOR the gentle aspect of his learning "no" through negative punishment as a component of your positive reinforcement.


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## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

Hi PaddiB, by the way I don't make my dog look at me every time he wants a drink. He only does it when his bowl is empty and he wants a drink and I fill it up with water then put it on the floor. He does this because we are working on triangle of temptation - with his food bowl. Anyways, point aside - he does not only get trained in the house so I'm saying he is trained because we take him out everywhere to train like in the park, on road trips, on the train and in the city centre so he is able to generalise his training and manners. Yes I may sound delusional about how great my dog is but to me, I love him and I'm just thankful and happy that he is able to do everything else this well aside from LLW. Like the other post, I think I should just be thankful and happy to think about what he has accomplished, particularly as he is now in adolescent mode.

I know that my dog is imperfect (can any dog be perfect?) but to me, he is already doing everything I could ask for and more. I would love to accomplish LLW and that is my goal but not being able to do it now does not mean that he isn't well trained in other aspects. I know being able to perform tricks and doing obedience training in any sort of given situation but not being able to master LLW does not make him "damn well trained" in some people's eyes but I'm proud of him and have been told how well he is trained in the public by many other strangers every weekend when I take him out so no I'm not the only one who thinks he is well trained. Yes I sound frustrated towards you because you have no idea how much effort, patience and time I put in every day to get him to where he is now outside the house in any sort of environment. I'm sure others on here can also empathise with how much effort goes into training a dog in different sorts of environment and would not hesitate to applaud their dog's achievements despite their dog's flaws. 

I do admit that the tree thing didn't work because he was just lunging the next moment and I had to stop each step for two whole weeks. Being a first time dog owner though, I try to think about the positives (what he can do and the things he has successfully accomplished) and from that mentality, I draw on the strength and hope that he will be able to accomplish LLW eventually if I persist. Yes a 5 minute walk took 30 minutes every time so I did change methods after 2 weeks because my trainer said that my puppy would be in a better situation if I kept him moving rather than stopping because I was building up frustration in him and so that is why he kept on lunging and barking every time we moved forward. Sorry, I didn't really understand one part of your post. So do you advice that he doesn't get what he wants when he doesn't do the behaviour correctly and then reward him when he does the behaviour correctly? ("negative punishment as a component of your positive reinforcement"). If that is the case, wouldn't going the opposite direction also fall under this category because he isn't getting to where he wants? Also, are you suggesting to do the standing still method every time the dog pulls? When you trained others, how long on average did it take if you remain consistent? What should I do if my dog sits down when I stand still? Do I reward him and then keep on walking?


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## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> If you think calm, attentive behavior is submissive, then you need to do a bit of updated reading about current dog training research and methodology.
> 
> Bolded - This is all +P training. Simply tugging back on a leash doesn't teach a dog how to LLW. Neither does a "redirection tap" on the side. These aren't corrections. They don't teach a dog the CORRECT way to behave. These are punishments.
> 
> You say _"Most people have no idea how to use a training lead properly with little to no tension because they don't know how to train the dog to understand the correction."_ Add yourself to that list. I taught LLW and heeling through luring (+R) and not tugging on a leash (+P).


So does the correction equate to punishment? I mean my trainer told me to do this and then praise and reward the dog when he does walk on my side?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

tange said:


> So does the correction equate to punishment? I mean my trainer told me to do this and then praise and reward the dog when he does walk on my side?


If when corrected he stops doing the undesirable behaviour (in this case, pulling) then yes, it is a punishment.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

tange said:


> So does the correction equate to punishment? I mean my trainer told me to do this and then praise and reward the dog when he does walk on my side?





ireth0 said:


> If when corrected he stops doing the undesirable behaviour (in this case, pulling) then yes, it is a punishment.


Absolutely what ireth0 said. Why does he stop pulling? Because he's being made uncomfortable, or potentially even being caused pain (depending on how the prong fits him), so he stops doing what is causing the discomfort/pain. That is punishment.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> I've either owned/bred/rescued dogs who were complete idiots when they wanted to ignore EVERY aspect of training I "thought" they knew while on a walk and they saw something they wanted, and whatever treats I have aren't as interesting as what "they" want. I'll "be a tree" or stand right where I'm at for an hour, if that is what it takes for the dog to realize it WON'T get positively reinforced for pulling me. Having that resolve early on makes the training process a lot quicker.


If you're standing still for an hour while the dog 'thrashes' at the end of the leash before finally relenting, that's P+. Think of the high number of self-corrections that happen during that span. It's more or less 'death by a thousand cuts'.

If the dog was keeping a consistent and constant pressure on the leash for that entire length of time, which I doubt he is, then I'd see it as R-. 

And besides, standing still for an hour is excessive, and only gives the dog a huge opportunity to rehearse an unwanted behavior. It's not giving him any feedback whatsoever on what you expect him to do. In other words, it seriously hampers the training process. Using the 'choose to heel / LLW" method like in the link I posted, for an hour, teaching the dog what it IS that you expect him to do, would be a much better expenditure of time.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I also stand still and wait when Bucky forgets I'm there and is pulling at the lead. He isn't thrashing around, he just is more interested in what is around than LLW so I don't move. In his case he is looking around, other dogs sniff and want to keep walking and sniff at the same time. If my dog was thrashing for extended lengths of time then he is out of his mind flooded with stimuli and needs to leave. That's when I turn for home whether I met my distance goal or not.

An 8 month old pup is like a toddler. If you've ever taken a walk with a toddler you engage with him the entire time to keep him moving and do a whole lot of stopping to see and touch combined with a lot of not walking forward in a straight line. The pup hasn't seen anything 1000000x and needs to explore the world. Agree about teaching 
choose to heel' in an enclosed area and gradually moving that training to more distracting areas on leash but also give the pup time to see, hear and smell what is outside. I can engage Bucky for a mile long walk but he isn't really learning how to cope with outside when I do that and I'm not getting to do what I want to do, see the scenery and such!

An 8 month old pup isn't capable of LLW for extended periods of time in areas with distraction. I know my goal is to LLW for at least an hour with few 'I forgots' but for now I'd expect to make tiny circles very close to my home with some 'I forgots' and expect any excursions to fun places to be mostly 'wedding march' type exercises in not walking very far and in both cases he'd be learning a lot about his world.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Kathyy said:


> I also stand still and wait when Bucky forgets I'm there and is pulling at the lead. He isn't thrashing around, he just is more interested in what is around than LLW so I don't move. In his case he is looking around, other dogs sniff and want to keep walking and sniff at the same time. If my dog was thrashing for extended lengths of time then he is out of his mind flooded with stimuli and needs to leave. That's when I turn for home whether I met my distance goal or not.
> 
> An 8 month old pup is like a toddler. If you've ever taken a walk with a toddler you engage with him the entire time to keep him moving and do a whole lot of stopping to see and touch combined with a lot of not walking forward in a straight line. The pup hasn't seen anything 1000000x and needs to explore the world. Agree about teaching
> choose to heel' in an enclosed area and gradually moving that training to more distracting areas on leash but also give the pup time to see, hear and smell what is outside. I can engage Bucky for a mile long walk but he isn't really learning how to cope with outside when I do that and I'm not getting to do what I want to do, see the scenery and such!
> ...


To each their own, but the bolded sentence is absolutely not true. I started training LLW the moment my puppy entered my home at 9 weeks old. At as early as 4 months he was absolutely capable of LLW for extended periods of time down my busy neighborhood streets without commands to keep him there. I keep the leash on him for a safety net, but I am confident that even without a leash he would stay in a perfect heel at my side now, at 8 months old.

I didn't train by stopping and waiting while he pulled on the lead. I didn't change directions and walk the other way. I used a combination of commands (heel, halt, sit, stay) and a massive amount of treat luring, as well as toy/sound luring, to get him to walk where I wanted him to. Now the commands are unnecessary and I occasionally reward him for staying in the correct position, or I ask him to 'halt' and reward if his nose goes more than a foot more forward than my knee. I can't remember the last time I actually had tension between the leash and his flat collar, though.

I am by no means an uber trainer. He is by no means a genius dog. But it is entirely possible for a dog of that age to LLW if training is started early and done multiple times per day. Every dog is different, of course, and everyone has different limitations on their schedule for training time.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> To each their own, but the bolded sentence is absolutely not true.


My feeling is that it depends on the dog. Some dogs are easier than others. Some breeds are easier than others.

I consider Hazel pretty easy to train to LLW, and I agree with Kathyy that there's no way she could LLW for an hour at 8 months old in a high distraction area without making a lot of mistakes. The world is more exciting for some dogs than others. And dogs have different natural levels of drive and impulse control.

ETA: It's like recall. Just because you (general you) trained a perfect recall on a dog with only a little training time doesn't mean that somebody else is going to be able to train it that fast. Or ever get the same level of reliability. Different dogs are very different.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> My feeling is that it depends on the dog. Some dogs are easier than others. Some breeds are easier than others.
> 
> I consider Hazel pretty easy to train to LLW, and I agree with Kathyy that there's no way she could LLW for an hour at 8 months old in a high distraction area without making a lot of mistakes. The world is more exciting for some dogs than others. And dogs have different natural levels of drive and impulse control.
> 
> ETA: It's like recall. Just because you (general you) trained a perfect recall on a dog with only a little training time doesn't mean that somebody else is going to be able to train it that fast. Or ever get the same level of reliability. Different dogs are very different.


Absolutely. Which is why I added 'every dog is different' in my last sentence 

Saying that 'absolutely no 8 month old dog can LLW' is just as wrong as saying 'every 8 month old dog should be able to LLW'. It's dog dependent, handler dependent, etc.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Absolutely. Which is why I added 'every dog is different' in my last sentence
> 
> Saying that 'absolutely no 8 month old dog can LLW' is just as wrong as saying 'every 8 month old dog should be able to LLW'. It's dog dependent, handler dependent, etc.


That's true. Though I feel like it's safe to say that you shouldn't expect an 8 month old to be able to LLW under heavy distraction. Maybe they can, and you're lucky, but if people expect that they're probably going to be disappointed a lot of the time.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Coraline has never learned LLW because she has never pulled me on the leash. She's 6 months old. That said, I am forever bracing myself for adolescence and a sudden change in her leash habits. I am very lucky, she just stays close and before she hits the end of the leash she looks back for me and waits for me to "catch up".... But I am always prepared for a change because she's a puppy and that's what puppies do sometimes lol


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> That's true. Though I feel like it's safe to say that you shouldn't expect an 8 month old to be able to LLW under heavy distraction. Maybe they can, and you're lucky, but if people expect that they're probably going to be disappointed a lot of the time.


I think it's breed dependent, to a large extent. I'd expect every Dane I ever own to be able to do it, if training is started at 8 weeks old, and probably most other giant breeds. 

Spaniels or herding dogs, though? Most likely not.

I think a large contributor to difficulties with LLW is that I see a lot of people who start training it at 4-5 months of age, and then people who train it nowhere but in their own neighborhoods. I went everywhere with Titan. Near parks with kids playing, near busy roads, by construction sites, in pet stores, etc. It was *really* important to me that he learn that skill above all others, because of his rapid growth and large size at a young age. I've never so intensely trained LLW skills as I did with him. With a smaller dog, I may not consider it as much of a priority, or go so far out of my way and strain my schedule as much as I did with Titan.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TSTrainer said:


> Coraline has never learned LLW because she has never pulled me on the leash. She's 6 months old. That said, I am forever bracing myself for adolescence and a sudden change in her leash habits. I am very lucky, she just stays close and before she hits the end of the leash she looks back for me and waits for me to "catch up".... But I am always prepared for a change because she's a puppy and that's what puppies do sometimes lol


Hazel was like that. She's still pretty good, but that perfect LLW didn't last forever. Haha. She's still mostly good if there isn't a specific distraction - she doesn't pull just to pull. But she got a lot more interested in people, dogs, birds, etc.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Hazel was like that. She's still pretty good, but that perfect LLW didn't last forever. Haha. She's still mostly good if there isn't a specific distraction - she doesn't pull just to pull. But she got a lot more interested in people, dogs, birds, etc.


Hazel is 3.5 months older than Titan, and I'm super worried he's going to go a bit backwards as adolescence hits harder. He's still 100% on the street because we're speed walking and he just looks straight ahead when we pass other dogs, but in the pet store when I've been picking out treats and have had him in a sit, he's broken his sit a few times and walked towards an approaching person or dog. I just put him back in his sit and continue shopping, but I am a bit concerned that his focus on me is going to drop significantly as distractions like people and dogs become more interesting.

I've dropped the intensity of my training with him on it, but I should probably pick it back up again and start going to parks/pet stores every evening to work on focusing on me. At least the weather is getting nicer


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I actually did get a prong for her recently. I mostly use her harness, but I'll clip to the prong if I feel like she's being especially flaily. And she has learned from it very quickly. It's actually much more effective on her than on Watson, where it's management because he wants to pull the whole time with his nose to the ground. He will still pull through the prong if he can and it can make him more hyperactive. Vs Hazel is like "Oh, huh, something happened when I lunged. Won't do that again"


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I actually did get a prong for her recently. I mostly use her harness, but I'll clip to the prong if I feel like she's being especially flaily. And she has learned from it very quickly. It's actually much more effective on her than on Watson, where it's management because he wants to pull the whole time with his nose to the ground.


I may look into prongs eventually if I'm walking three 160+ lb dogs, because at that point, if they all take off, I'd be pretty screwed. I don't like haltis/gentle leaders or front clip harnesses on Danes. Some people use foal halters, but I don't think I'd like those, either.

I'd do flat collars if I was walking them one at a time, though, and always expect good LLW skills from my dogs. But when it comes to being safe, prongs may be necessary for holding back 480 lbs of dog, especially if I'm on icy roads in the winter.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I may look into prongs eventually if I'm walking three 160+ lb dogs, because at that point, if they all take off, I'd be pretty screwed. I don't like haltis/gentle leaders or front clip harnesses on Danes. Some people use foal halters, but I don't think I'd like those, either.


K9 Bridle is a head halter that attaches behind the head. I have one that I'm conditioning Watson to wear because I'd like to get him off of the prong. I wasn't super comfortable with the GL either, and I hate front clip harnesses in general.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> K9 Bridle is a head halter that attaches behind the head. I have one that I'm conditioning Watson to wear because I'd like to get him off of the prong. I wasn't super comfortable with the GL either, and I hate front clip harnesses in general.


Oh, I like how that looks. I just don't enjoy the idea of my dog potentially flipping or snapping their neck sideways hard enough to do damage if they hit the end of the leash, but the K9 Bridle would negate that issue.

I'm *hoping* that secondDane (adult) will come with some good LLW skills and that by the time it comes to teach thirdDane (puppy) LLW, I'll just be able to use a coupler to attach the dogs together.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I may look into prongs eventually if I'm walking three 160+ lb dogs, because at that point, if they all take off, I'd be pretty screwed. I don't like haltis/gentle leaders or front clip harnesses on Danes. Some people use foal halters, but I don't think I'd like those, either.
> 
> I'd do flat collars if I was walking them one at a time, though, and always expect good LLW skills from my dogs. But when it comes to being safe, prongs may be necessary for holding back 480 lbs of dog, especially if I'm on icy roads in the winter.


Good luck with walking 480 lbs of dog on ice! I used to use a prong on my 200 lb'er and frankly he could pull right through it, same with a head collar/harness combo. Through "pushing" was able to get him off the prong and onto a wide flat collar for walks. For any future dogs, I hope to avoid both prongs and head collars. Given a choice, I would go with a prong over a head collar or head collar/harness combo.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I don't know whether it is the Poodle in Bonnie but she took to loose leash walking very easily. She may change as she is just 8 months old but so far, she just does not seem too interested in pulling when we are just walking along. She does have her moments when she sees a person or another dog but I just ask her to sit or down and she settles. I am not interested in an Obedience type heel with her as I was with Kris as I will just be doing Agility with her and just want her not pulling whether she is on my right or left side.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TSTrainer said:


> Coraline has never learned LLW because she has never pulled me on the leash. She's 6 months old. That said, I am forever bracing myself for adolescence and a sudden change in her leash habits. I am very lucky, she just stays close and before she hits the end of the leash she looks back for me and waits for me to "catch up".... But I am always prepared for a change because she's a puppy and that's what puppies do sometimes lol


Lucky you LOL, Lincoln is 18 mos old and he still in some situations, struggles with LLW, all the "standard" LLW tricks dont work with him because the pulling is what is rewarding to him. I would have no issues using a prong, but I dont, because he is long haired and it would get tangled in his hair ... LOL. Also, he is not a big dog, so him pulling is not a huge deal.


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## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

Really good news guys. So for the past few days, Lucky has been really good on walks. I'm constantly treating him like every two steps and saying yes like every two steps when he is good. I still turn around when he gets to the end of the leash but he isn't lunging or anything like before. We saw a cat today and he started to try to chase the cat and was too excited to walk so I took him back home and did more LLW inside the backyard before he was calm inside to go outside again.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

tange said:


> Really good news guys. So for the past few days, Lucky has been really good on walks. I'm constantly treating him like every two steps and saying yes like every two steps when he is good. I still turn around when he gets to the end of the leash but he isn't lunging or anything like before. We saw a cat today and he started to try to chase the cat and was too excited to walk so I took him back home and did more LLW inside the backyard before he was calm inside to go outside again.


That's great! My dogs learned to LLW like that - low distraction area, near constant reinforcement for being in the right spot, lowering criteria / raising ROR when necessary...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

tange said:


> Really good news guys. So for the past few days, Lucky has been really good on walks. I'm constantly treating him like every two steps and saying yes like every two steps when he is good. I still turn around when he gets to the end of the leash but he isn't lunging or anything like before. We saw a cat today and he started to try to chase the cat and was too excited to walk so I took him back home and did more LLW inside the backyard before he was calm inside to go outside again.


That's great news!! I also struggled getting Kuma to walk on a loose leash, but had good results using I guess you'd call them environmental reinforcers. For example, the streets in my area are lined with big trees every 20 feet or so, and of course all the dogs pee on them, so a lot of his pulling was to get from one tree to the next to sniff. So I only allowed him to sniff the trees if there was slack in his leash when we got there. If he was pulling, I'd say "not yet!" and keep going. If there was even a tiny bit of slack, I'd say "Go sniff!" and let him sniff to his heart's content. He caught on pretty quickly and improved a lot, but it was when I started breaking his walk from one long walk a day into several shorter ones a day that he made the biggest improvement. It lessened the "OMG I'm going for a WALK!!!!" excitement to a manageable level, lol. He walks very nicely on a loose leash now, so it IS possible, lol.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

with Lincoln, I have just come to terms with the fact that in some situations, he is just going to pull, so as long as he doesnt yank my arm out, I deal.


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## tange (Jun 21, 2015)

Kuma'sMom said:


> That's great news!! I also struggled getting Kuma to walk on a loose leash, but had good results using I guess you'd call them environmental reinforcers. For example, the streets in my area are lined with big trees every 20 feet or so, and of course all the dogs pee on them, so a lot of his pulling was to get from one tree to the next to sniff. So I only allowed him to sniff the trees if there was slack in his leash when we got there. If he was pulling, I'd say "not yet!" and keep going. If there was even a tiny bit of slack, I'd say "Go sniff!" and let him sniff to his heart's content. He caught on pretty quickly and improved a lot, but it was when I started breaking his walk from one long walk a day into several shorter ones a day that he made the biggest improvement. It lessened the "OMG I'm going for a WALK!!!!" excitement to a manageable level, lol. He walks very nicely on a loose leash now, so it IS possible, lol.


That's a great idea. I should start doing that because he only recently started peeing on trees and lifting his leg. Hmm my dog gets 3 walks a day and he still seems really excited for the evening walk straight after he wakes up. He knows when we are going for a walk and would run to the front door and sit. If I don't go to him, he'll run back to me and do some circles as if to tell me to hurry up. LOL but it's gotten better after I spent a few minutes doing calm LLW inside before we go outside.


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

I've posted before about a similar method that I've used for a long time on most of my dogs. My Aussie is over the top high drive and excitable. When I rescued her she had no training at all. 1 1/2 yr old. She pulled something fierce on the leash. So I just let her using a command "sniff". This is exercise for her. There is no fat on this dog. She will pull for a mile sometimes. By this time some of the "edge" is off her and she is more responsive to training. This is where I start my training. Then I use a " heel" command for her to come to my left side. I give treats for success, demanding more precision over time. We then continue walking at heel. I've added a number of additional commands required for good walking. "Leave it" for anything dangerous, "stand" for any crosswalk, road or path. This is a safety for the dog command. I've recently added "right side heel" (run into one word). The dog switches to heel on the right by going behind me and I switch leash hands. A couple weeks ago I added " follow me" where she switches from a side heel to a rear heel. This is a tough one for an energetic dog especially a puller but again it a useful command on walks.

I also practice class training things in the several parking lots that we cross.

So our walks are a lot more than just "potty" walks and go home.

We go 3-5 miles twice a day year around. 

I use a prong with well rounded ends and quick release. I teach the command first then use the prong for a reminder. It's never used with a sharp tug or yank. Usually just rattling the chain is enough but a two finger tug works if necessary followed by a reward for correctness.


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