# Raw food- please help!



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Okay I'm about ready to pull my hair out. I've come to the decision that I need to start feeding my dog raw food but I'm not just going to jump into it. So at this point I'm making a list of things to get, probiotics, enzymes, and multi-vitamin supplements to be given to him with the Nature's Variety Instinct GF Salmon Meal. Does that sound good so far?

Then after I can get some more research and possibly some books I'm going to be starting to add things to his food like tripe and whatever else. I have a question about liver though, I used to feed my dog cooked liver all the time because it's cheap and he liked it a lot and then I read online it's not that great for dogs and my vet said it's okay for a treat but it carries the toxins that other animals absorb in it and those toxins than go into your dog... so I'm kind of concerned about feeding liver but I read that's one of the things you're supposed to add to your dogs diet. Anyone know anything about this? 

Next, I'm going to transition to a freeze dried raw for maybe a month and than onto a completely 100% raw diet. Or I might try just a homecooked diet for a bit..we'll see how that goes. I just want to try the freeze dried first just to make sure my dogs stomach can handle the difference. I mean he's been eating cooked chicken and liver with kibble for the whole past 7 years of his life so I'm not trying to put his system into shock or anything. The only thing raw I've ever given him was an egg. He's a mini poodle not a husky or a GSD or something. He's a lap dog, and even though I know he has a prey drive and I've seen him catch a chipmunk in his mouth with, I'm sure, plans on eating it..I don't really think that means he's ready or capable to be eating raw meat. So I'm pretty scared about it but I know I can't continue to risk hurting his organs more then the damage that has already been done.

What I really want to know is if I'm stupid to be jumping into this. I mean, I've been reading a lot of different things lately about dry dog food and about the stuff the goes into the meat meals they put in them and on top of that my dog just recently had problems with his liver and I was feeding him homemade and he seemed to be doing so good and I'm starting to feel stupid to be putting him back onto a dry food when maybe I should just stick with a homecooked diet. But it was easy, mostly veggies and a little bit of fish. I would obviously have to feed more meat and a more varried diet than that for his long term health. I've also been reading on thewholedog.org which seems like a reliable source(and if not please let me know) and toxins can build up in your dogs organs and you can give them a detox and I'm considering doing that because of what recently happened with my dog having problems with his gallbladder and liver. So has anyone ever given their dog a detox before? It mentions Zeo Life and Detox Plus. 

Other than that, I know there are plently of threads on here about raw and I plan on looking through them all so I can prepare myself and plan ahead. I just want to get someones input on this, am I being stupid about this..I mean am I over reacting about what happened with his liver and going a little nuts here or is this really a good idea? I don't want to hurt him by feeding him raw food if his body won't be able to handle it. I know a lot of people feed their dogs raw but does anyone actually feed a dog like a mini poodle raw on here or just bigger dogs?


I've posted this in the wrong thing ofcourse...meant to be in the Food section. Sorry about that. Not sure how I managed that one.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Don't over complicate it. Forget about the supplments, you don't need them. Don't switch to freeze-dried then raw. It's just an extra change for your dog's system.

As far as detoxing you'll probably find that they will be fixed with the raw. The extra moisture will help kidneys. Milk thistle is good for the liver, but don't start it unless needed. What exactly happened though?

There are tons of small ogs on raw. They do just as well as large dogs. It's not just a big dog thing. It's made for every dog. It's what they would be eating.

You kind of do have to jump in almost. www.preymodelraw.com <- that's the website I've followed and I haven't had an upset stomach yet. Although, I do feed a grind. It's Blue Ridge Beef.

I don't love WDJ because it seems to promote a lot of products to me. I like www.dogaware.com though. It has a ton of information. That website also has a list of raw food suppliers in your state. If you can't find it I'll link to it for you.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

IIRC avoid red meats for a dog that has liver issues. Also you may not want to go high protein and fat, so something like the prey model raw may not be the way to go.

Liver is fed as a source of a lot of the essential vitamins and minerals. That's why it's important. Yes toxins do end up in the liver but a lot of toxins pretty much end up everywhere in the meat as well. The liver is simply where it's easily tested. It's not really something you can avoid unless you're raising your own animals or are very careful about how the meat you buy are raised. Which means it takes time and a lot more money.

When properly balanced, you don't want multi vitamins. Probiotics are useful but again not necessary. Enzymes I consider more useful than probiotics since most of us are not feeding raw pancreas but it's still not a major concern.

I honestly feel like raw is easier than homecooked. Homecooked is just as good but more time consuming. If homecooked worked for you and you liked doing it, then just start from there. Main thing to add to any homecooked recipe is just bone meal to provide the proper calcium and phosphorus needs since you're not feeding bone.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Sorry, I just want to make it clear that he doesn't have liver problems anymore. After 2 months of herbal meds and a homecooked diet his levels are all back to normal. The whole experience of him going through all that though is what has pushed me into looking into all of this and wanting to feed him a raw diet. 

Thank you both for answering. I found the dogaware website and have been reading through it as much as possible just to get an understanding of the whole thing. I want to give the supplements with his dry food for now because I know that with the recent liver problems and the high protein in the food I'm giving him the enzymes and the probiotics will probably help a lot with digestion. Ofcourse now I've been reading about how high protein can be bad for dogs livers and kidneys but from what I've read it seems to be a water problem more than anything so I give my dogs food to him looking more like a stew than anything. I just make sure he isn't showing any signs of dehydration and his pee is coming out almost clear so I'm just going to assume he's getting enough water...ofcourse than you have to worry about him getting too much. (This is what I mean by being about ready to pull my hair out lol...I'm really starting to go nuts). Anyways, I'll check out the preymodelraw website as well. Thank you


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Th whole not needing high protein thing is to a degree a myth. They need appropriate easy to digest proteins.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Well I'm off to get some digestive enzymes for my dog. I'm getting him VaturVet Naturals Digestive Enzymes because it's the only one I could find that I liked from Petco and Petsmarts seemed to have no enzyme supplements at all. Maybe not the best but I thought it was better than the rest. Anyone ever used it before?

nevermind, just realized they have Prozyme so looks like I'll prob get that. Maybe Prozyme Plus if I can find it(fingers crossed).

ok, change of plans again. I ended up getting NaturVet digestive Enzymes with prebiotics and probiotics. I know I've seen that some people on here use it. I have a small dog and he gets fed 1/3 cup 3 times a day. So the whole 1/4 teaspoon per cup thing is going to be kind of difficult unless I add it to his whole meal for the day and then I'm not even sure he'll get an even amount each feeding. Just wondering if anyone has figured out how to measure this stuff out for smaller feedings then one cup. I could do the math and divide the 1/4 tsp. into 3 but than I'm not even sure how the heck I would be able to measure that out...Anyone else have this problem or am I the only one that's having issues with this? Maybe I'm just making things more difficult than they have to be lol...


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## roxiefoxie08 (Dec 15, 2011)

If you feed your pet less than 1 cup of food, add 1/8 rounded teaspoon for every 1/4 cup of wet or dry food.


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## Mheath0429 (Sep 4, 2011)

I use supplements and always have with raw. I use salmon oil, coconut oil and vitamin E as my staples - occasionally I will add flax seed oil or kelp. For quick added nutrients, just crack a raw egg on top. The dogs absolutely love it. A lot of people will suggest giving the entire egg, but I cannot advocate it as you never have any idea what is sprayed on the shells.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Thank you for the responses . I used to give my dog raw egg with and without the shells. Still do sometine. I just make sure I wash the egg before hand. 

So I was thinking, and I have family up in PA who hunt and get deer pretty often. I was thinking about asking if they could throw the organs into a bag for me and stick them in the freezer..maybe some meat too. Idk about the meat though because the work hard to get that meat and I'm not sure how they would feel about it going to a dog for food. The organs they dispose of anyways so it shouldn't be a problem. I was just wondering if anyone feeds their animals wild animal parts? I know it's probably a lot healthier than meat bought from stores with it not being fed unnatural crap to fatten it up and all but I'm kinda worried it might carry some disease or something. I eat deer meat, but obviously cooked in a stew or something, never raw.. so I'm just not sure how safe it would be for my dog. If I were to ask though, would I ask for all the organs or just specific ones? I know that you can feed the liver, kidneys, pancreas, and heart...but what about the intestines and lungs and whatever else?


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Lots feed it. If you're worried you can't freeze it for a few weeks before feeding.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

While under ideal conditions, wild animals may be healthier than farm raised animals, they are also not regulated in terms of toxins and diseases so wild hunted dear isn't necessarily better than grocery bought food. They could have ingested pesticides and toxins that are not allowed in food for farm raised animals for example. Parasites and diseases are also not monitored and avoided for wild animals.

Also iirc deer had some disease that was similar to mad cow disease but has not been researched enough to say if it transfers to humans. Not sure if that has any affect for dogs.

Just some things to be aware of. I'd still feed it. Maybe avoid things like brain and spinal cord. Intestines can contain more parasites so I might avoid that too. I actually get deer tripe from hunter friends. Like boxerlover said, I would freeze it thoroughly for at least a month before consumption just as a precaution. Actually honestly I'd probably just cook it for meat and organs. (green tripe is really only beneficial raw)


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

zhaor said:


> While under ideal conditions, wild animals may be healthier than farm raised animals, they are also not regulated in terms of toxins and diseases so wild hunted dear isn't necessarily better than grocery bought food. They could have ingested pesticides and toxins that are not allowed in food for farm raised animals for example. Parasites and diseases are also not monitored and avoided for wild animals.
> 
> Also iirc deer had some disease that was similar to mad cow disease but has not been researched enough to say if it transfers to humans. Not sure if that has any affect for dogs.
> 
> Just some things to be aware of. I'd still feed it. Maybe avoid things like brain and spinal cord. Intestines can contain more parasites so I might avoid that too. I actually get deer tripe from hunter friends. Like boxerlover said, I would freeze it thoroughly for at least a month before consumption just as a precaution. Actually honestly I'd probably just cook it for meat and organs. (green tripe is really only beneficial raw)


I forget the name of the disease you're referencing, but it's not able to be passed to dogs. It's seething that can only be passed between deer.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

That's exactly what I was worried about. Maybe I'll just cook it to be on the safe side...I just thought it would be something different than the typical stuff you can find in a grocery store. Also, is there anything I should look out for with rabbits. My bf father buys them at auction and butchers them to eat and I'm thinking about asking him to get me some for my dog. Should I be aware of anything with rabbit meat? I'm thinking I might just cook the meat and organs from rabbits and deer and then feed the store bought meat raw. That way I can at least give him more variety and not have to worry about him getting sometype of disease or parisite.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Wild rabbits frequently have tapeworm, but if he buys the rabbits at auction I'm sure they're domestic rabbits, raised in hutches, and probably there's nothing to worry about. If you're worried about it, you can freeze the meat for a while to kill parasites.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Alright thank you 

Are there any more websites or maybe even books that I should be aware of to learn more about raw feeding?
Also, does anyone use some of the store bought premade raw dog foods? I was thinking I might try some of them too, maybe the ones with meat that wouldn't be available to me here. Like bison or something. I just wasn't sure what brands are the best. I know that a store near me carries Nature's Variety Instinct Raw, Freshpet, and Vital. I'm not sure what else is available near by but I've read about Primal, Bravo, and Nature's Logic as well. Is there any others? I'm not planning on using them that often but since they have more variety like Bison and such I thought it might be worth getting something like that every once in a while.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Pretty much all the brand of frozen raw are good. A decent variety is best so just buy whatever you feel like buying that day . Pre-made raw foods are super convenient but a lot more expensive than prey model. But with any diet, variety is important!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Just moved this into the food forum. More of the raw feeders here are likely to see it there and reply.


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

Wild meat is great to feed raw, but yes it should be frozen for sometime prior to feeding. I think a couple weeks or so is sufficient. There are more than just organs that you could get, there is usually lots of trim and scrap meat that is leftover after the carcass has been butchered for human meat. Also most hunters will have freezers stocked and need to clear out last years freezer burnt meat to make room for new stuff, so feeding anything like that is acceptable as well. Generally raw feeders love feeding game meat because its as close to natural food as you can get and loaded with nutrients. It is usually pretty lean though so ensuring fat is added to meals is something to consider also.

I agree with what others have said about skipping freeze dried and home cooking, its too much transition for the metabolism to go through IMO, and I do believe home-cooking can be very difficult to balance properly, since cooking deplets a lot of nutrients. Most dogs do just fine going cold turkey onto raw. Their bodies are designed naturally to digest raw, but yes every dog is different so its good to start slow. Some people would recommend a 24 hour fasting period before going from say dry food to raw, but honestly again depends on the dog. My dogs ate dry food in the mornings and raw in the evenings for a while before I switched to %100 raw and they did just fine handling dry food and raw food in the same day.

If your wishing to go PMR (prey model raw), most experienced raw feeders would recommend you start out with chicken, which is an easy protein to digest as well as all the bones in chickens are easy to crunch up and swallow. For a smaller dog some people would feed chicken backs and smash up the bones with a meat clever, or feed smaller parts like chicken wings, chicken necks, etc. After chicken you can move onto turkey or duck and then into your red meats gradually one by one and introduce slowly. Raw oily fish like herring, mackerel, sardines are good to feed raw too. Raw feeders who cannot come across raw fish would opt for a fish oil supplement.

I myself feed a partial PMR and partial commercial ground raw. They eat a fully balanced /natural ground commercial raw that contains meat, organs and bone and nothing else, and they come in about 8 or 9 different animal proteins and I feed this in the mornings usually because I'm just too rushed for work to wait for them to eat bones and stuff and clean the mess up afterwards. I stock up on various sorts of PMR and each month I do a mass butcher and portion everything into daily feeding portions in freezer bags for both dogs and take one bag out each morning to thaw in the fridge for dinner that night. Freezer space is pretty crucial, but I'm thinking for your small dog, not so much  

Anyway you're definitely on the right track by doing your research before jumping into raw feeding, do all the reading you can, ask all the questions you have to wrap your head around it before you make the choice. Raw feeding is definitely a commitment, and at first I can admit it can be difficult, but like everything else with experience and time it just becomes routine. Don't over-think it, its not as scary as it seems. Yes, its not for everyone and not everyone can handle it, but where there's a will there's a way!

Good luck!


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Instead of making another thread I'll just put this here and hopefully someone will have some advice. I started giving Pepper the enzyme supplement about 7 days ago and after the 2nd day his stool has been really soft, looks like soft serve icecream, and sometime, not often, even watery. I thought that maybe he just needed to adjust to the enzyme supplement so I kept reducing the amount I gave him and it didn't seem to improve much so I just stopped giving it to him today. I'm not sure if that's the best idea because he might have just needed time to adjust to the added protain he was digesting since I switched him over from a mostly potatoe and veggie diet about 2 weeks ago. I'm going to cook up some rice and some ground meat and give that to him tonight and tomorrow and see if that helps and then I'm thinking that I'll just start feeding him the same diet I had him on before and once again try to switch him over to the kibble in a couple weeks. 

I was just wondering if anyone's dog has ever experienced problems like this when being put on a digestive enzyme?

I know from reading online that it can cause nausia, vomiting, and diarrhea in people but I can't really find any information about the side affects in dogs other than allergic reactions leading to facial swelling which he is not experiencing at all. The only thing that I can think is that because he was on a diet with very little protein for two months and then being switched to a high protein diet and then on top of that I started giving him the enzymes, his digestive system just might not be able to handle all that at once. I did take two weeks of mixing in the kibble with his old food before I officially switched him over but then I also switched him from one kibble to a different one. I had originally started giving him Merrick B.G. salmon in with his food and then I switched that to the Nature's Variety. So that might have a lot to do with it.

Also is rice and ground meat the best cure for loose stool or should I try giving him more fiber? He doesn't have chronic diarrhea or anything. He only goes poo maybe 2-3 times a day and sometimes it's firmer than others but than sometimes it's pretty watery so I don't know if changing him back to his old food and starting over again would be the best idea...it might be more counterproductive than anything. Any advice would be greatly appreciated


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Its probably as simple as he isn't getting enough bone. Add bone, and the loose stools will firm up. Chicken necks have alot of bone, and giving him a few of those for a couple days will likely take care of the problem. A proper raw diet needs no added "supplements" cept maybe an oil if you choose.


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

Also, green tripe is the natural way of providing digestive enzymes, probiotics and amino acids. You can buy canned tripe, but if you can find natural raw green tripe, this is one of the greatest supplements in a raw diet. And yes, feeding boney meals will harden stools. Chicken, duck or turkey necks are great for that like Graco says. Chicken wings and backs are also good ways to get some digestable bone in the diet. I'm a bit concerned that the cooked meals you are currently feeding are not properly balanced, but I'm not sure. I don't have any experience with home cooking - it seems far too complicated and raw IMO is easier to balance and it takes the extra step out - cooking.

I just posted an article on Facebook about feeding raw green tripe. Here it is : http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/the-stink-on-tripe/


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Okay, I'm going to make my life a lot easier and start feeind a premade raw dog food... this is what is apparently available near me:

Original BARF Diet Raw Food
Oma's Pride
Primal
Bravo
Steve's Real Food
Northwest Naturals
Vital Essentials
OC Raw Dog

I know some of those aren't exactly prey model raw but honestly I don't think veggies are that horrible and I think fiber is pretty good for keeping the colon and intestines of a dog healthy so I'm not too worried about veggies being in the food. I just want to know if any of those brands should def be avoided. 

I'm thinking Oma's pride. There's a place about 15 min away that orders it every couple of months. It takes about a month to come in. So i'm thinking about ordering 3 months worth of food. 

They have chicken backs, chicken necks, and green tripe which I'll probably order some of. I'm just really worried about my dog choking. He doesn't really chew his food...I know thats a normal dog thing...but he also eats really fast so I'm worried about giving him things like chicken necks because he might swallow a huge chunk or something and I'll have no idea what to do. He's a small dog so it's not like a could stick my hand down his throat and get something lodged in there out..so I just don't know about that. 

He's had different bones before but they've always been bigger bones that I know he couldn't have swallowed without chewing. Aren't the bones in chicken necks pretty small?

Anyways, I would want to get the Chicken and Veggie mix. 

Ingredients:

Chicken & bone, chicken necks, broccoli, butternut squash, kale, chicken hearts, chicken gizzards, chicken liver


Guaranteed Analysis:http://www.omaspride.com/catalog.ht...lypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=2&category_id=8

Does that sound good to start him off with. I know that chicken is the first thing you're supposed to start a dog on and that the dog should be left on chicken for about 1-2 weeks before adding in different organs and than eventually different protein sources. Since the product already contains organ sould I get something that just contains meat and bone for right now and then switch over to that products after a coulpe weeks? 

It comes in a 10lb box of 4-6oz patties for a decent price. For my dog, at 15 pounds, he would eat about 4-6 oz a day so, considering I'm horrible at math, if I want to buy a three month supply how much should I get? 
If I'm doing the math right, a 10 lb bag should last about 26.7 days..or 26 and a half day basically. So should I get 3 10lb bags and a few bags of tripe, chicken backs, etc?
Does it sound like I'm missing anything..maybe I should get different protein sources like 10lb box of chicken, 10lb box of turkey, 10lb box lamb or beef?

Anyways, sorry to be annoying...I just want to make sure I'm doing this right. I just feel like buying premade is probably better right now and eventually...hopefully...I'll have the common sense to figure out how to feed raw on my own after a couple months of doing this lol.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't feed veggies so I'd personally get the ground frames to start out on. Do you want to food veggies? I'd personally probably go with Bravo or Primal if you're going ground. Do you have Blue Ridge Beef by you? I believe Top Quality and Raw Energy dog food is by NJ too. They have more options too. 

I got 5 ounces for 2% body weight


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Actually I do have a place that sells Blue Ridge, actually the same place I would be getting Oma's from, but I didn't list that one because I didn't think it was good since it doesn't have organ meat in the mixes...

I can't even find Top Quality...put it in google and it comes up with a bunch of different websites for different raw food brands..could you give me the link to their website please? 

Raaw Energy doesn't have anything local, over an hour to get there and Cherry Hill is over an hour too. The places in NY might be closer but not worth the price of 8 bucks to get over the bridge for some dog food lol. 

Yeah I was getting about 5 ounces. It depends on the brand..some list 6oz other list only 4oz which seems a little low but I figure I'll figure it out once I start feeding it. Just keep an eye on him and I can easily weigh him every once in a while if I need to. Honestly, I would like to keep some veggies in the mixture, I know a lot of people think it's a waste but my dog seems to digest veggies pretty well.. he was eating a mostly veggie diet when his liver enzymes were up and he was pooping out small pellets some days so he was obviously obsorbing some of it. I just think the mixtures would be easier because they seem to be more balance as far as vitamins and everything which would be easier on me..not having to worry about making sure he's getting 12 different types of meat so he gets everything he needs..eventually I'll get to that point and I'll probably stop with the veggies but for right now I feel like it's the safest option for my dogs health untill I get a better understanding of everything.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If you're going for commercial raw foods, no reason to pick just one kind. Rotate them frequently, variety is always best.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

http://www.topqualitydogfood.com/

And you don't want to start out with organs do that's ok. I'm just getting organs from a different supplier to add in. It's what I used and I haven't had any issued with it do that's why I recommended it. 

I understand about the veggies. You do have to look at raw differently though. All the vitamins are in the meat already. The AFFCO's regulations for vitamin needs really means nothing if you look at their basis for it. I've found that stuff with veggies is more expansive, although your dog only eats 5 oz a day. You could add in a vitamin mix. Wholistic Pet Canine Complete and Dogzymes Ultimate come to mind.


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## AreWild (Aug 16, 2012)

[Length Warning! Once I got started this post became a bit of a novel. :redface: Maybe at least part of it will be helpful. ]

Raw feeding looks overwhelming on paper, especially since there's so many premade options, each one different. Honestly though, it's far easier in practice as long as you don't let yourself over complicate things. It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced at first. There will inevitably be speed bumps and setbacks, and that's okay. I started with premade, freeze-dried and multiple supplements because I didn't want to make a mistake or overlook some vital nutrient. It only made the switch harder on me and on the dog. Making the final leap to prey model ended up being a huge relief for both of us. 

I'd advise taking a step back and trying a simpler approach. Decide what your goal is (whether you want to feed prey model, think veggies are important, prefer ground, etc.), skip over anything that's merely a step in that direction and just get started. You can always make changes and add supplements later if you see the need. 

Practical tips: 

I like https://www.hare-today.com/ for some harder to find items. They have a good variety of whole prey, much of which is small enough for your dog, and whole ground animals. Don't buy a ton of something new in case your dog doesn't like it. I won't cater to a picky eater, but had one dog who wouldn't eat pinkie rabbits. She carried them around, groomed them like puppies and tried to give them to me as though I could fix them. Since she had no problem eating furred rabbits I conceded and didn't her any more pinkies. If I hadn't had other dogs to feed those to it would have been an expensive lesson. I've also heard of dogs that refuse mice, rats and/or whitefish but are otherwise hardy eaters. 

I glean a lot of deer from hunters. Since they're doing me a favor I try to make it as easy as possible for them. Anything they don't want but have room in the freezer for gets thrown in a trash bag pretty intact. I thaw a sink-full at a time, portion it out, toss what I can't use and refreeze the rest. If you have a weak stomach it might not be worth it to you. Game is way bloodier than prepackaged meat and the organs smell pretty strongly. If you can't to give it a shot it's a great source of variety. All the organs are useful, but I don't bother with the bladder or the digestive tract past the stomach. They're not nutritionally important and thus not worth the ick factor for me. Most of the hunters I know are in it for the meat and keep the vast majority of it. Even so, there are a lot of scraps in a deer. I tend to get a lot of lower legs and feet, necks, spines and rib cages. My dogs are 30-35 lbs so a lower leg or section of 3-4 vertebrae is a meal. You might rather cut the meat from the legs and separate the vertebrae individually. Ribs are a pain to break down if you want to keep the bone but the meat between bones can be cut out in strips easily with a little practice. I've also been given older meat when someone needs to make room in the freezer at the start of the season. 

In addition to deer, you may want to ask around about other game. I'll gladly take moose and caribou. Rabbit and squirrel are great unless they're full of lead shot. I've talked to raw feeders who'll feed small game and birds with steel shot since it's not toxic and passes easily, but I don't like the idea and worry about chipped teeth. A couple of guys I know use .22s instead and I'll take anything they throw my way. If you know any fishermen that catch more than they need or have freezer burned fish that can be a good connection. Even fish that aren't omega-3 heavy provide variety, organs and edible bone. I always check for swallowed hooks but that may be overly cautious. I haven't found any. 

On parasite and disease risk: No single animal is uniquely nutritionally important. If you're not comfortable with it, skip that species. There are plenty of others. I can tell you what precautions I take, but what's right for you and your dog may be different. 

I freeze all wild game and fish for a couple of weeks as a precaution. That kills mites, lice, fleas and common zoonotic worms and parasites. I'm comfortable feeding heads and spines of any species I've already mentioned. Chronic Wasting Disease in deer has shown no indication of jumping to canines and is the only disease of note in my area. I freeze salmonid fish for at least a week because a fluke they potentially carry is infectious in canines. I freeze domestic, pastured pork and wild pork for three weeks to kill off trichinosis even though it's extremely rare here. I wouldn't bother freezing factory farmed pork, but don't feed it anyway for other reasons. I avoid bear entirely and won't feed carnivorous/omnivorous game from colder climates. If you come across anything you're not sure about and happen to have the space for you can always stick it in the freezer and look it up later.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Thank you all for your advice. 

Willowy I was planning on doing just that. I figure it would be better to not just rotate through different protein sources but also different brands since they're not all going to be equal and one might offer more nutrition than another for all I know. 

Boxerlover876, from reading the preymodelraw website on how to get started feeding raw...it looks like I shouldn't be feeding my dog organs till about week 7 or 8 after I've introduced all different protein sources. I feel like I'll go by their "rules" since they really seem to know what they're talking about and even if I'm not going strictly "prey model" right now..I think I understand how a lot of people feel it is best and will hopefully get to that point some day soon. 

AreWild, thank you so much for taking the time to write that post...I'll have to go back and reread it again when I have more time and I can take a look at that website as well. I know that the people who I would be getting game meat from mostly stick with deer and such..I have an uncle out in Montana who gets biggeer game like black bear and huge turkeys but it's pretty impossible for me to be able to get that meat from him all the way in Jersey =[, it's a shame but what can I do. I know that my family in PA only hunt with bows so thankfully I don't have to worry about anything like lead shot..I'm really not sure I would feel right feeding my dog anything like that even if it was considered safe. As far as parasites, from reading other people's post it seems like you have to leave the meat frozen for quite a bit... I'm thinking of asking my cousin to throw whatever scrap meat and organs he doesn't want into a bag and keeping it in his freezer for me since hunting season started... how long should I keep that meat frozen before I give it to my dog?

Also, as mentioned above I think I'm going to stick with the intructions for how to get started that is on the preymodelraw website. It says to start off giving your dog chicken backs for the first 2-3 days and than going back and forth from chicken backs to chicken leg quarters for about 1-2 weeks until the dogs stool is firm for up to a week. So, with that information..can I safely assume that it would be alright to start my dog off on a chicken and bone mixture from any of the places I listed? I know that with the chicken backs..the point of starting on that is because it's more bone and keeps stool firm, so should I start off with the first three days on chicken backs and then switch over to the chicken and bone mixture? 

Also, I read that when starting the dog on a raw diet to fast the dog for 12-24 hours.. do I need to do that if I'm not feeding my dog dry food? He's on a homecooked diet right now. As far as supplements, I read that when starting a dog on raw to give them a digestive enzyme supplement to help their stomach build up the enzymes it needs to digest raw...would a supplements like NaturVet digestive enzymes with prebiotics and probiotics be good? Also, he's on a multi-vitamin right now called Nutri-Vet Multi-Vite and it has calcium and phosphorus in it, should I take him off that and look for something without calcium and phosphorus in it since he'll probably be getting enough of that on raw?


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

For trichinosis larvae in pork, the CDC says to freeze it solid for 20 days at -15C (5F). For the pseudorabies virus, which is really only a concern if you get wild hogs I think, you'll need to freeze it for 35 days.

In wild game, there is a possibility of freeze resistant strains of worms that you can't kill by freezing. However that's really more of a concern for meat eating animals like hogs and bears. Animals like deers generally won't have those parasites in meat. They do have intestinal parasites like tapeworms but that's why you might want to avoid feeding intestines.

A general rule of thumb I'd go with for freezing meat is just freeze it for at least a month. It's really just a precaution for deer meat. You can probably feed it without freezing and be fine but for me it's always better to be safe.

The AAFCO standards are based on the NRC standards for nutrition I believe. There are some nutrients that are just more abundant in plants but when you're feeding raw meat, most of that gets covered just fine. Liver is the primary source of a lot of vitamins and some oils which is why it's an important part of the organs. Other organs can provide various other nutrients. I haven't done a close analysis of prey model raw but I'm inclined to think it meets most of the NRC requirements because there are similar diets of meat and organs that meets most of the NRC requirements.

The 2 nutrients that seems to be more consistently below NRC in a few diets I've seen are zinc and iron iirc. Zinc gets covered by red meats like beef and organs like liver. Iron is probably due to the general lack of blood in the diet but I add pork blood so that gets covered too.

On things like prey model raw, rotation is even more important since it's more about the overall diet being balanced long term (like rotating in red meats to cover zinc intake) rather than commercial foods where each individual meal should be balanced. I pretty much rotate between chicken, pork, and beef every day and rotate between adding sardines or raw eggs a couple times a week.

Some vegetables in the diet isn't bad. In the wild, stomach contents of prey would contain some plant sources. 

Switching is all about letting the digestive tract adjust and produce the appropriate enzyme mix and what not. So really it just depends on your dog. My dog went cold turkey just fine but I had always given him plenty of raw bones anyways so he's used to raw meat.


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## kathylcsw (Jul 4, 2011)

I have 2 small dogs that are raw fed. One is a Toy Fox Terrier and the other is a Jack Russell Terrier and they each weigh around 9 lbs. The bulk of their diet is deer and I feed all that I can get my hands on! I get scraps and trim from people plus out of date and freezer burned deer that would be thrown away otherwise. They have been eating deer for almost a year no with no problems of any kind. My JRT has a very thick, soft coat from all the deer. Small dogs do just as good on raw as larger dogs and can eat almost everything bigger dogs eat. 

I feed mostly chicken for bones because they do need slightly smaller bones. They also get turkey necks and duck wings. I will sometimes give them pork ribs and they get a whole fish 1x per week. They also get an egg a week. They are both healthy and full of energy and I can't imagine feeding them any other way. I highly suggest that you get all the deer that you can. It is great for them.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Okay, so I started feeding Pepper a premade raw. Nature's Variety Organic Chicken because it's easier for me to get a hold of and it is organic which makes me happy. Gonna keep him on that for a little while till his poop firms up and then going to try switching him over to a different protein source and probably a different brand as well. I just wanted some advice about something.
The reason I'm feeding premade really has a lot to do with me being afraid of giving my dogs whole bones as well as some other reasons. With thanksgiving being tomorrow and with having a turkey neck available to me I was thinking about trying it out and giving it to him. He's a small dog, 15 pounds, and he eat really fast and barely chews his food so I'm scared to death he might choke on it.
I read that freezing it can actually help prevent this and is even better for cleaning teeth. Is this correct? Also, should I hold onto the turkey neck while he is eating it? He does get food aggresive sometimes and I'm afraid if I give it to him I won't be able to get it back from him if need be.

Also, originally when I started him out on the raw his stool was fine but after day 4 he had really bad diarrhea, so a fasted him for a little over 12 hours(can't do any more than that, he gets those hunger throw ups of bile when he doesn't eat enough). The diarrhea cleared up, but ever since then he has had loose stool and in large amounts. Originally when I had him on freshpet vital and the first 4 days of raw he had small firm stools. I thought with raw a dog is supposed to poo less and the oppisite has happened. I'm wondering if this is part of that "detox" period? He's been on raw for a little over a week so how long should I wait this out to see if it gets better? Also, I know a lot of people say more bone would be necassary but I read that most premade raws already have enough bone, if not too much, in most cases. Am I wrong about that? If so then I guess I'll have to feed him more bone and that goes back to my whole fear of him choking, so I don't know what to do about that.

I think that's all lol. Never ending questions about this stuff. If I didn't love my dog so much, I swear this wouldn't be worth all the effort but he's worth it


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

The turkey neck will be fine. I promise. You don't have to hold onto it, but if it would make you more comfortable you can. Freezing it is also fine. 

A dogs digestion starts in the stomach. They don't chew like people do. They just chomp off a small enough piece to swallow. Then it's digested in the stomach. Think about how they feed crocodiles and alligators if you ever seen it. They just hack it back and swallow. 

What were you feeding when he stared getting diahreah?


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I was feeding him the premade raw, the Nature's Variety organic chicken. He was on it for four days before hand and everything was fine and than out of no where he had really bad diarrhea, like literrally liquid which I've rarely ever seen with him before. I fasted him for a little over 12 hours and since than his stool has been soft and in large amounts. I mean not huge, just not small like before. Originally he was pooping small firm stool when I started feeding it to him. So I'm not sure what happened. That's why I'm thinking it's either a detox or maybe he had a stomach bug or something. I just couldn't figure it out. I just don't know how long to wait it out to see when his stool firms up again, I don't really want to screw up his digestive system or anything.

I've read about how dogs don't really chew like people do. It's just this fear, reading all the horror stories of intestinal blockages or choking. Also the fear a sharp peace will somehow manage to pearce an organ or something. It's just something I need to get over I guess. Over paranoid lol.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I have actually heard of a few dogs getting diahreah from NV because it's pasteurized which kills off some of the friendly bacteria. His poops might be large because of some of the added ingredients. 

Keep fasting and I would try the turkey neck tomorrow to see if that helps bind him up, which it should, and go from there. Just make sure he doesn't get dehydrated and maybe make him some chicken broth.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Alright, sounds good. Thanks for the advice. I'm almost done with the NV and I'm thinking of getting Primal Rabbit Formula. Maybe that will help since I've read rabbit is actually better than chicken in some things. I think the ingrediants listed for NV included yogurt which I thought would help with healthy bacteria but maybe it's a lactose intolerance thing. I'm not even sure if there's enough in it to even make a difference. I do have a enzyme and probiotic sumplement. I wasn't giving it to him but maybe I'll give it a try in a couple days and see if that helps too.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I need a little bit of help with something somewhat mathematical. I’m trying to figure out the nutritional content of my dog’s premade food for the amount I’m feeding him.

I just put him on Nupro joint supplement and it has vitamins and minerals in it so I just want to make sure I’m no over doing anything and he’s getting all the recommended amounts. It’s pretty easy to figure out the amount he’s getting from the Nupro, my issue is with the food.

Everything is measured in kg and my dog gets fed in oz and very little at that. He only gets 4oz a day. Also, I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be doing it by dry matter? His food is 70% water which means out of the 4oz he’s only getting 1.2oz of dry matter, correct? 

Either way, there’s apparently about 35oz in a kg. So I’m going to type up an example of how I would try to figure out the amount he’s getting and hopefully I’m doing the math correct and someone could just tell me if I’m doing it right, please. 

Ex: Vitamin A: 4475.65 IU(kg)/35 = 127.9IU(oz)*1.2 = 153.48IU(oz) for dry matter in the food.

Is that right?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Everyone gave solid advice here  And yes, small dogs can DEFINITELY be on raw! My 7 lbs pom is on raw and he is thriving ^_^


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

I started on raw six months ago cold turkey and started with ground/ prepared food...like Darwin's...(they have a fabulous introductionary offer!) my dogs love it, it's expensive but they are small dogs, so I don't care...I feed that one meal most days because it has ground bones in it...I just can't do the "throw them a chicken " thing yet....I did cut a Cornish hen in quarters and wa amazed hw the 4 months puppie chewed it all up very nicely!i also feed pigs feet cut in half....so I Am venturing to the RMB world...but it's just a little scary for me! I buy canned green tripe on amazon and feed a little 3 x a week! I also feel that for big dogs would it be easier to handle RMB...my son brings his tribe of 2 labs and a pit bull and I throw them big bones and etch them gnaw for a while....without fear ...


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Good to know!

Where do you find necks?


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Love Oma's pride...family owned business....


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I get chicken necks from almost any grocery store, they are just attached to the backs I get. Turkey necks I get form the butcher or straight from the turkey farm.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Ok, I don't see backs, either...


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