# Shaping Weave - Early beginnings?



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

The Makeshift Trainer, i.e me, doesn't have real poles, so I'm teaching a "weave" behavior with blue cones (hey, at least I got a color dogs see real well!) 

I've gotten Wally to go through two cones and are working on changing the angle of those two cones and always going right of the cone (it's on his left).

We're at the point where the cones are straight but getting the point that it's always enter with it on his left is confusing him. 

What would be a good shaping way to explain to him consistently to enter from the right of the cone? Right now, it's random which way he'll come in, which means he doesn't get the concept yet and I don't want to give too many no-reward markers as I don't want to create hesitation.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

If you're truly shaping, there is no way to "explain to him" to do something, except through rewarding some things and not rewarding others.

I really don't like using shaping for weave training. It creates a slow dog who does not drive forward. Weaving is a lot more than just going in a certain direction through poles.. spacing, footwork, etc all play a role.

I don't know much about it but there is a method of weave training invented by Susan Garrett called 2x2 that very heavily emphasizes the entry that I think you can adapt to what you're trying to do.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I'm teaching Denali using the 2x2 and it's been great so far. I can stand anywhere, tell her "go!" and she'll go walk around to get the entry right.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm curious - why would shaping make him do a slow weave?

I could see it in the beginning that he might not get it just like with shaping anything else we've worked on, but once he gets it, doesn't seem to be slow.

Is there something in the weave that would make him do too much thinking if taught via shaping?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Sibe said:


> I'm teaching Denali using the 2x2 and it's been great so far. I can stand anywhere, tell her "go!" and she'll go walk around to get the entry right.


I used 2x2's on Tag to specifically work on entries. Works like a charm. He's starting to "get" where to enter no matter where he or I am standing when I tell him to weave, and he's starting to nail really tough entries!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I'm curious - why would shaping make him do a slow weave?


I'm not sure, but it's what I've seen with people who use shaping exclusively to train weaves. 

My best guess would be that it's because the dog doesn't learn the footwork necessary to weave fast. It makes the dog kind of slither through the weaves rather than bounce or single step them. Using slanted (Weave-O-Matics) or Channel Weaves can help with this.

I know someone who recently trained her young dog using a combination of 2x2 (which is all about the entry) and then Weave-O-Matic (which is good for changing striding) with some great results.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

2x2's are about shaping a behaviour to a degree, it teaches the dog to find the entry and to weave without verbals, lures or prompts. Biggest mistake is people do teach the dogs to drive forward and use speed fast enough in the method and then end up with a slower performance.

KB, instead of cones, use toilet plungers, they will at least look somewhat like weaves. When the poles are side by side, you have to work the entry from all angles but it is critical that the dog never come back through the poles from the wrong side. We don't use a clicker but do mark with a yes and throwing a reward on the reward line. Hope that helps.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LynnI said:


> KB, instead of cones, use toilet plungers, they will at least look somewhat like weaves. When the poles are side by side, you have to work the entry from all angles but it is critical that the dog never come back through the poles from the wrong side. We don't use a clicker but do mark with a yes and throwing a reward on the reward line. Hope that helps.


Hey, good idea with the plungers.

Yeah, I've been making sure about that and have been doing the same kind of thing - verbal marker and treating so he keeps going forward and not backtrack or come out and back to get the treat. 

Eventually, I'm going to be standing beyond the exit area and he's going to come through the weave to get to me, hopefully that will help his drive too since he'll want to get to me.



MissMutt said:


> I'm not sure, but it's what I've seen with people who use shaping exclusively to train weaves.
> 
> My best guess would be that it's because the dog doesn't learn the footwork necessary to weave fast. It makes the dog kind of slither through the weaves rather than bounce or single step them. Using slanted (Weave-O-Matics) or Channel Weaves can help with this.
> 
> I know someone who recently trained her young dog using a combination of 2x2 (which is all about the entry) and then Weave-O-Matic (which is good for changing striding) with some great results.




That's a good point about the footwork. I guess I thought the dog would pick that up as a function of having to go through. Just like I don't have to teach him how to open his mouth to pick up and carry an object that's big vs small, he just figures it out as part of the process.

I have heard of the 2x2 method when looking for some beginner guides on the internet.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> If you're truly shaping, there is no way to "explain to him" to do something, except through rewarding some things and not rewarding others.
> 
> I really don't like using shaping for weave training. It creates a slow dog who does not drive forward. Weaving is a lot more than just going in a certain direction through poles.. spacing, footwork, etc all play a role.
> 
> I don't know much about it but there is a method of weave training invented by Susan Garrett called 2x2 that very heavily emphasizes the entry that I think you can adapt to what you're trying to do.


Yeah the 2x2 method is done by shaping in conjunction with backchaining so recommending it then saying that shaping is a bad way to train weaves doesn't really work 

Webster and Mira learned/are learning weaves all by shaping. When done right, produces a fast, drivey dog who can weave consistently start to finish without babysitting.



KB -- How are you rewarding? LynnI's suggestion of maintaining a reward line is extremely important when first starting weaves.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Shaina said:


> KB -- How are you rewarding? LynnI's suggestion of maintaining a reward line is extremely important when first starting weaves.


At first I c/t him for going on the right side of the cone (he has zero knowledge, so I have to start at the very beginning, imo). Then held out until he put his head through the cones. And then all the way through and that c/t would cause him to exit out to get the treat so he completes the "weave" and goes forward to collect his reward (hopefully providing information in the process).

Part of what I think is also confusing him is when he got it down with 2 cones in a straight line, I put a 3rd one and shaped the rest of it much in the same way (with the final reward leading him out and forward again) and he figured out (unwantedly!) that "sometimes I go to the left of the cone too!" So the next trial, sure enough, he starts coming in from the left instead of the right!

Dang smart dog. He picks up on landmarks so easily and uses them to try to figure out position and where he should do what, and I'm thinking he's trying to view this the same way.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Yeah the 2x2 method is done by shaping in conjunction with backchaining so recommending it then saying that shaping is a bad way to train weaves doesn't really work


But 2x2 is not shaping alone. So I could say that I don't like shaping alone for weave training 

Maybe the people I see "shaping" are different from what you and others have done? I see people first emphasize the entry and click the dog for finding the entry, then literally click for bending around each pole. There is no splitting up of the poles as you'd see with 2x2. The dogs have NO footwork and are very dependent on the position of the handler (which doesn't sound like Mira or Web at all so something must be different). IME I've still see the best weave results with people who emphasize the entry first (probably using shaping) and then switch to something else to get the striding.

I got lucky with Marge because she can nail a hard entry but we've only used V Weaves. A lot of dogs trained only on Weave O Matics have trouble with the entries.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> But 2x2 is not shaping alone. So I could say that I don't like shaping alone for weave training
> 
> Maybe the people I see "shaping" are different from what you and others have done? I see people first emphasize the entry and click the dog for finding the entry, then literally click for bending around each pole. There is no splitting up of the poles as you'd see with 2x2. The dogs have NO footwork and are very dependent on the position of the handler (which doesn't sound like Mira or Web at all so something must be different). IME I've still see the best weave results with people who emphasize the entry first (probably using shaping) and then switch to something else to get the striding.
> 
> I got lucky with Marge because she can nail a hard entry but we've only used V Weaves. A lot of dogs trained only on Weave O Matics have trouble with the entries.


Yeah to me it's still all shaping -- you shape a behavior (through 2) then just build on that, letting the dog choose what to do and rewarding the right thing, which setting the dog up to win so you can reward...classic shaping. I don't know what else you'd call it...there's no lure, no positioning, no corrections, not positional cues from me. The other you describe I've never seen is also shaping...just with less effective methodology. Sets the dog up to be slow and rewards it.

And yes Web was trained by 2x2 (after being introduced to channels first...ick), and Mira's being trained by a slightly modified 2x2 sort of method that works better for her. And both were definitely all by shaping. Kim was trained by Channels and W-o-M then I had to go back and retrain for entries, etc.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Kb, personally I would drop the clicker and even the verbal marker, at first we also don't use NRM because the dogs don't know what is being taught at first. Look on utube for the 2x2 method, I would think you will like the method. Better yet, order the dvd from clean run, dog wise or garret.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

We taught Morgan using the 2x2 methods. I always started with him between my legs to make sure I wasn't giving him a positional cue and it helps him to realize that he has to enter to the right of the pole no matter what angle we start. If he enters correctly, I throw him the tug. If not, I call him back and we try again. We didn't start changing angles until he had nearly perfect accuracy entering them straight on.


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## dobedvm (Nov 1, 2010)

berlin was shaped and lured - i taught her to go around a pole on a finger cue, and then made it a series of "go arounds". we also had them slightly open at one point, but she never really needed it. i was skeptical, but this has taught both my dobes and rah never had any channels. both understand their job is to go around. rah has hard times with entrances, and berlin has a few too so i am starting whati call around the clock entrances, which rips off a bit from 2x2 to clarify - they both have problems collecting into them. 

berlin as a baby doing it - you can see the finger cue and here she looks at the handler after each one 





this is rah a year ago, same thing - you can see the finger cue and he looks to me each time - 





here is berlin, more advanced than rah since she's the one actually training in agility - shes got head down drive through but still working out her footing





crappy video, but this is april of 2010 - she's working out her footwork





august this year - ignore how gross i look, rah gets put head down and go - but he cannot figure out footwork because hes toooooo looooooong









berlin's 2nd standard leg- not perfect but weaves hold up. like i said, i need to work on entrances, and i wont push her for more speed until i clarify collection into the poles - if she cant collect,she may hit the entrance but has to go to pole 3, or she starts at pole 2 - collection is hard for my dogs  





i was skeptical that it would work for my dogs, but it's worked marvelously. im not looking for world team speed - but they both seem to understand their jobs!


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