# My Puppy is a Bully (and I don't know what to do)



## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Our third puppy class went TERRIBLY. Apparently the way we allowed Brady to play with my mom's dog should not have been allowed, and now he thinks it is ok to be a big bully. He chases down other dogs, bites their legs until they fall, and pretty much just tries to dominate them. Moreover, his prey drive is so heightened that he tries to lunge at running kids, etc. This class went so badly. I cried. In class. I just couldn't help it. I had to keep picking him up and removing him from the dogs he was trying to maul.

I cried all the way home. I don't know what to do with this. He was absolutely impossible. He lunged and whined and lunged some more while on his leash while all the other dogs sat quietly. I'd be lying if I didn't admit to seriously considering rehoming him. I feel like I have given EVERY part of myself and it's all going in the wrong direction. I'm exhausted, I no longer get to do anything for myself (I've missed weight watchers meetings, stopped going to the gym, etc.). And I'm afraid for my cat's safety. 

I just don't know what to do right now. I'm absolutely exhausted and I'm at the end of my rope. I don't know that I have much more to give.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

He is a PUPPY. Like a little kid (remember all this b4 you HAVE kids.. they can be outta control). He just needs BOUNDARIES. And YOU need to understand this is an animal with his own mind, own agenda and one that WILL test the boundaries. He will also grow up and become more independent. That is why you train the dog. Rehoming because you have just found out that a dog is work and not always going to be the star of the show is a bit extreme! Atka was the star at her first Obedience class.. and then the next time it went down the drain LOL. I actually took a year off training just to work on her attention. She now has her CGC, her CD and we are going to be trying for her CDX (A) and GN optional obedience titles this spring (first show for this in about 3 weeks). 

In all reality, I do NOT like puppy classes where the dogs are all allowed to play together. THAT is not socialization. That is dog park play time and, IMO, unnecessary. 

Go to your Mom's and work Brady on his obedience and attention with the other dog there. Put him on a line. When he is playing call him to you and use the line to enforce if he does not. Reward him with food EVERY time he comes to you. Same in the play time at puppy class. He is probably riding his "puppy pass" with the older dog right now. That will run out at some point and the older dog WILL put him in his place.* Did you get the book, "How to Raise a Puppy You can Live With?" If not GET IT and READ IT. It WILL help you a LOT. It takes the dog thru its first 2 years!!!!*

Puppy class should be learning about walking on new surfaces (we do a lot of this). Paying attention to you when asked. Learning about self control around other dogs... all that 'stuff' that an adult dog needs to do later on. 

Remember.. he is a baby.. and you need to set the boundaries. If they do not like you putting him on a line during puppy play time, and Brady is acting inappropriately, take him out of the class for that portion of it. Your dog. You got the dog, You pay the vet bills, You pay for the food, You provide the roof, You train him the way You need to.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Not much to add except do not let pup and cat hang around together unsupervised, you did not mention a crate it might be a good investment


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm not going to rehome him unless all of my resources don't work. Honestly. I'm just really...really tired and, yes, disappointed and upset about last night. It is not a fun thing to watch your dog try to mow down every other dog around him. If in the end I did rehome him, I wouldn't be rehoming him because he is work. I'd be rehoming him because I can't give him what he needs and because I'm, frankly, scared for the safety of my cat. Those teeth won't always be baby teeth.

In any case, rehoming is my last resort. I'm accepting that he won't be able to do daycare and that I'll have to find suitable alternatives for days when I work. That's fine. I live in the DC metro region; we certainly have resources. I'm in 3 classes w/ him a week and we work every single day on obedience. He is amazing w/ obedience still. When I have his attention, I have 100% of his attention. I am still looking for even more classes to get him in AND I've contacted a trainer to possibly work privately w/ me. I'm really truly doing everything I can.

The "play time" in our puppy class IS mostly about self control around other dogs AND about recall. We're supposed to practice getting them to come to us during that time and, of course, correcting any inappropriate bullying.

I have a number of books on my list to read and, yes, "How to raise a puppy you can live with" is one of them (I have it ordered w/expedited shipping), though I have started with "The other end of the leash" as it was available on my Kindle. I've also got "Off-Leash Dog Play" to read; that one was recommended by my class leader because I'm having trouble recognizing when his play becomes inappropriate.

I am frustrated and mad at myself for letting Brady play with my mom's dog that way. I should have trusted my own gut instinct that it wasn't right. I knew it, but I listened to my parents instead. And I don't know what I can do at home to work on these issues except to take him to my mom's.



wvasko said:


> Not much to add except do not let pup and cat hang around together unsupervised, you did not mention a crate it might be a good investment


They are never alone unsupervised and he is crate trained.
He also gets tons of treats and praise when he is gentle and calm around the cat.
It doesn't help that my cat is a bully and likes to jump down and taunt him, but I use those times as opportunities to teach him not to react.


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## Skeeski (Feb 4, 2007)

I know puppies can be frustrating but I really wouldn't let the thought of re-homing cross your mind at this point. 
He's a puppy. A YOUNG puppy. He's still learning impulse control, and will be for a long time. I wouldn't write off doggie care yet either, he just needs to learn how to play and learn when a dog tells him off, it means game over. 
Are they on leads in puppy class? If not I don't know how you're supposed to work on coming when called and leaving it with out it being able to be immediately enforced. 
Our puppy class was 30 minutes of walking around on new surfaces, working on attention exercises, touching and feeling feet/legs/looking in ears(vet stuff), and little things like sit and loose leash walking. then the last 5-10 minutes we broke off in little groups and the pups got to socialize on leash so we could call and remove them from each other if playing got to rough. My pup, (shepherd/hound) was a bit of bully sometimes I guess (if you want to call it that, it was just his play style) he played like he did at home with our 70&95lb dogs. He pulled feet and slapped them around, a lot. But with consistency he learned he could not play this way with all dogs. And by the end of the 8 week course he was getting placed with the shy/small puppies because he was gentle about it. It just takes extra work sometimes. 

He will test you and mess with you and he'll "forget" every thing he knows. That's what puppies do. You just have to work through it, and persevere. He's still learning about the world and he's only been with you a few weeks. They aren't perfect out of the box, even if sometimes they'd like you think that. He's probably starting to lose the need for "mom" to protect him from the world and is wanting to start to explore it on his own. Good treats/toys and short little obedience lessons around distractions will go far. Consistency is the most important thing. 
I realize this rambled, a lot, sorry. Good luck.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Skeeski said:


> I know puppies can be frustrating but I really wouldn't let the thought of re-homing cross your mind at this point.
> He's a puppy. A YOUNG puppy. He's still learning impulse control, and will be for a long time. I wouldn't write off doggie care yet either, he just needs to learn how to play and learn when a dog tells him off, it means game over.
> Are they on leads in puppy class? If not I don't know how you're supposed to work on coming when called and leaving it with out it being able to be immediately enforced.
> Our puppy class was 30 minutes of walking around on new surfaces, working on attention exercises, touching and feeling feet/legs/looking in ears(vet stuff), and little things like sit and loose leash walking. then the last 5-10 minutes we broke off in little groups and the pups got to socialize on leash so we could call and remove them from each other if playing got to rough. My pup, (shepherd/hound) was a bit of bully sometimes I guess (if you want to call it that, it was just his play style) he played like he did at home with our 70&95lb dogs. He pulled feet and slapped them around, a lot. But with consistency he learned he could not play this way with all dogs. And by the end of the 8 week course he was getting placed with the shy/small puppies because he was gentle about it. It just takes extra work sometimes.
> ...


No, everything you said was good and helpful, thank you. 
Our first puppy class was about letting them play and observing what was appropriate and stopping what was not. we also learned to put them back on the leash when needed. Different dogs were off leash at different times. We learned how to get them to sit and how to get them to come to us.

I then went to a puppy social somewhere else that was entirely off-leash puppy play.

Our second puppy class (last night) involved a little bit of play time and us going up to them with a treat and calling/guiding them away. We then all lined up w/ puppies on leashes and we walked to the end of the room one at a time, then ran back with them on leash with no pulling (from either dog/owner) allowed. Then one by one we had to go to the other side of the room and call our puppy as it was released and came running to us. Then we took the leash and ran them back to our spot. Brady was whining and whining and whining and lunging at the dog next to us. We then did "exams"...handling toes/ears/mouth. He did great with that; he doesn't care how people touch him.

That's about where we are right now. I've contacted a trainer who works with puppies in her own home with her own trained dogs to learn about appropriate greeting/etc. We'll see how much she costs and if I can afford it. We also begin obedience class on Wednesday, which should be good. Brady is VERY good at obedience. Like I said, when I have his attention, I have all of it. I WAS able once last night to get him to down and stay while another dog tried to run to him. So that was promising.



Elana55 said:


> Go to your Mom's and work Brady on his obedience and attention with the other dog there. Put him on a line. When he is playing call him to you and use the line to enforce if he does not. Reward him with food EVERY time he comes to you. Same in the play time at puppy class.


Since I am working from home tomorrow I'm going to see if I can take Brady to my mom's and stay there all day as it will just be me and the 2 dogs. I'll do the above and also do as my class instructor suggested and any time he attempts to bully, just kindly remove him (no anger/yelling, just pick him up and remove him for a little bit).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

What did the puppies he was trying to "maul" DO? 

And surely there aren't kids running around during puppy play??! 

A word about puppy play... a well-run puppy play session is an excellent place for puppies to learn boundaries during play IMO, but it isn't and shouldn't be a free-for-all. The one I've been taking Squash to is supervised by multiple trainers who intervene to break up and redirect puppies when necessary, and there are several wel-tempered adult dog "chaperones" that are present during play as well who will correct puppies appropriately. 

Take a deep breath, hang in there. I just think it's waaaay too early to call him a bully at this point. Work on some impulse control games and maybe some one on one play time with other puppies or adult dogs who will correct him appropriately if he gets out of line. The book "Fight!" by Jean Donaldson has a good section on dogs who bully, it might make you feel more knowledgeable about what to do if you read it. 

(Also, I actually HAVE an adult bully -- Maisy, believe it or not. I won't go too far into it unless you WANT to, but it's not the end of the world. It's not like she can't play with ANY other dogs.)


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

sassafras said:


> What did the puppies he was trying to "maul" DO?
> 
> And surely there aren't kids running around during puppy play??!
> 
> ...


1.) What did they do 
Well, we had a couple reactions. In the very beginning when he was with the small, shy puppies, this one little girl yelped. He did let go of her, but he continued to chase her. He didn't let her retreat.

With the bigger puppies, they fought back. This one pit bull would get REALLY peeved. They would all try to run away, and would growl/try to bite back while trying to run away. He would not let up. It was rather hard to catch him.

When he does this with my mom's dog, he throws him off, sometimes gets his whole head/neck in his mouth and holds him down but without biting. He just continually throws him off.

2.) I guess I don't know what a good class looks like? This one SEEMED good based off my limited knowledge and others' recommendations. There were trainers there to intervene always and dogs were on leash more than off. 

Can you recommend some impulse control games?


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## aBlueDog (Feb 14, 2011)

I don't think your pups a bully... I think hes pushy. I had a pushy pup as well, they grow out of it with a little direction. When puppies play together they WILL tell the other dog when they have had enough. It maybe worth your while to train a positive interrupter. A sound(I use a kissy sound) that you can use to interrupt his play that means good things. He is going to start running from you if every time you bend down you pull him away from his "fun". Basic concept is make the sound you want to use-- give a treat-- repeat. important thing is EVERY time you make the sound you give a treat. He should with practice willingly come away for a valuable treat. 

This video explains it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8

Good luck and don't worry it will all work out you sound like a very good puppy mom... 

Also you may want to check out this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Puppy-Primer-...7135/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302007287&sr=8-1

Its a very good book that makes everything very easy to understand. It also gives the reader an understanding of what to expect behavior wise.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

my pup is a bully sometimes too, and sometimes he is great... they are puppies they do weird stuff sometimes lol. I don't think this is an indicator that you have an aggressive dog.

A great impulse control game is to put a piece of kibble in your closed fist, present it to the puppy but don't let him have it until he stops licking/biting/pawing at your hand, and then just make the amount of time longer and longer.

Does the puppy class involve food? or some other motivator, I think the most appropriate response would be to try and distract the puppy with something better, whether that is hot dog or a **** tail figure out what he really likes and use it to distract him when he gets to rough.

Here is me doing it with Horse, this was after a few times of trying it so I added "eye contact" to the game, he has to look at me when I say his name before he gets the treat.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Now the question is...am I willing to shell out $525 for this trainer I just contacted. Hmmm.

@aBlueDog - that is a good idea. I'll definitely have to try that. maybe a whistle (not one you blow, but like whistling in general) would be good (since my lips never leave my face)

@LuckySarah - he is very very good with the closed fist impulse thing. I can actually put a treat on his paw and get him to leave it (though it can take a few tries). I'll keep working on that.
The puppy class does involve treats and that is how we would get them away when they were getting rowdy (unless it was turning into a fight).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lisak_87 said:


> 1.) What did they do
> Well, we had a couple reactions. In the very beginning when he was with the small, shy puppies, this one little girl yelped. He did let go of her, but he continued to chase her. He didn't let her retreat.
> 
> With the bigger puppies, they fought back. This one pit bull would get REALLY peeved. They would all try to run away, and would growl/try to bite back while trying to run away. He would not let up. It was rather hard to catch him.
> ...


Keep in mind it's so hard without actually SEEING the play, but to me none of this sounds especially horrible to me according to your description. When the first puppy yelped, he let go - which is what he is supposed to do. What happened next could simply have been a shift to a game of chase, which would be totally appropriate. Again, without actually seeing the other puppy's body language it's hard for me to really say if it was that or if she was really trying to escape. But IME the puppies who truly don't want to engage in play at all go hide behind people or under chairs or something like that, they don't run around letting themselves be chased. 

With the second explanation, the growling/biting while running... again, it's hard to comment without seeing everyone's body language and how much give and take there was between the puppies, but that CAN sometimes be completely normal puppy play as well. It depends on whether the other puppies are willing participants in play or truly being defensive.



> 2.) I guess I don't know what a good class looks like? This one SEEMED good based off my limited knowledge and others' recommendations. There were trainers there to intervene always and dogs were on leash more than off.


So what did the trainers do or say about Brady's play? I know a couple of times if I was concerned about how Squash was acting or playing, I'd just ask them about it - is this normal? Should I be concerned about this or that? - and they were really helpful about explaining things to me. To be clear, Squash is in a separate _class_, the group I'm talking about is a 100% off-leash puppy play group only, no class or lessons. But it is heavily supervised and "moderated" so to speak by knowledgeable trainers and stable adult dogs. 



> Can you recommend some impulse control games?


Check out "Control Unleashed" for some good games. Also search for "It's Yer Choice" on YouTube. I also get in the habit of marking/treating every time my dogs choose to orient to me when we're out and about in the yard or in public.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

lisak_87 said:


> Now the question is...am I willing to shell out $525 for this trainer I just contacted. Hmmm.
> 
> @aBlueDog - that is a good idea. I'll definitely have to try that. maybe a whistle (not one you blow, but like whistling in general) would be good (since my lips never leave my face)
> 
> ...


I think spending that kind of money right now is overkill. You have a pushy puppy that gets intense at puppy class. That is why you are there, to help him with that behavior. Some dogs are more intense than others. That doesn't make them bad dogs. Keep loving him and working with him and he will grow into the best dog he can be. It is way too early to know if he will be a doggie daycare dog or not. Right now, his job is to learn manners (that doesn't mean that he will never play rough, some dogs like to play rough and that's OK). Your job is to guide him and love him, not worry so much that obnoxious behaviors at this point are necessarily predictors of having a "bad" dog. My dog plays like a killer attack dog with some dogs and he is gentle as can be with our cat and with small dogs. Try not to worry so much, just keep an eye on him and guide him along the way.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Our third puppy class went TERRIBLY. Apparently the way we allowed Brady to play with my mom's dog should not have been allowed, and now he thinks it is ok to be a big bully. He chases down other dogs, bites their legs until they fall, and pretty much just tries to dominate them. Moreover, his prey drive is so heightened that he tries to lunge at running kids, etc. This class went so badly. I cried. In class. I just couldn't help it. I had to keep picking him up and removing him from the dogs he was trying to maul.


One other thought, this is your pup's 3rd class and you're almost crying about it. What exactly were you expecting. You would not expect a child in kindergarten to pull a 4.0 in college. This is a baby, no more, no less. Just relax, toughen up your mental attitude a bit as your pup needs you to have the ability to watch/learn and adjust whatever training you are into.

You are going through pretty much what everybody else faces with a pup.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Keep in mind it's so hard without actually SEEING the play, but to me none of this sounds especially horrible to me according to your description. When the first puppy yelped, he let go - which is what he is supposed to do. What happened next could simply have been a shift to a game of chase, which would be totally appropriate. Again, without actually seeing the other puppy's body language it's hard for me to really say if it was that or if she was really trying to escape. But IME the puppies who truly don't want to engage in play at all go hide behind people or under chairs or something like that, they don't run around letting themselves be chased.
> 
> With the second explanation, the growling/biting while running... again, it's hard to comment without seeing everyone's body language and how much give and take there was between the puppies, but that CAN sometimes be completely normal puppy play as well. It depends on whether the other puppies are willing participants in play or truly being defensive.
> 
> ...


It was clear to me that he was bullying and that his chase and biting were unwanted, that's about all the proof I can give of that.

The leader told me to just keep removing him when he does that. She said do not punish, do not reprimand, just remove, walk him away, and try to calm him down before re-releasing. She wasn't mean, she wasn't overly concerned. She said to get him in as many classes as possible for exposure to situations and to just keep removing him when necessary.



wvasko said:


> One other thought, this is your pup's 3rd class and you're almost crying about it. What exactly were you expecting. You would not expect a child in kindergarten to pull a 4.0 in college. This is a baby, no more, no less. Just relax, toughen up your mental attitude a bit as your pup needs you to have the ability to watch/learn and adjust whatever training you are into.
> 
> You are going through pretty much what everybody else faces with a pup.


No, I was definitely crying. There was no almost about it 
I'm not expecting perfection, I'm hoping for improvement. As we've gone to more classes, this particular problem is getting worse and worse to the point where he is removed more than he is allowed to participate. He now lunges towards people and dogs while we're walking; the problem is getting worse and I'm feeling pretty helpless/clueless about how to get him to improve. I try to break his eye contact with my body. I try to distract with treats and commands. I am trying to work on impulse control.


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## osdbmom (Feb 15, 2011)

Its hard to be patient with a little puppy, and its easy to beat ourselves up and think we arent doing it right, esp with the first one. But you are doing a great job. Puppies play fight, thats how they play. They arent going to sit down and quietly play with lego, lol. One puppy will yelp and that tells the offender that his bite was too hard....thats how they learn bite inhibition. When we first brought Zoey home, she nipped at my yougest son and bit at him a LOT. and she was 3 months when we got her, Brady is so little yet. I worked with her daily for months before she understood that she couldnt do that. Even though Brady is really smart, he's still just a baby. He may just be having so much fun and to him he's just playing that he doesnt know how to stop. Imagine being super hungry and tearing into a hot fudge sundae....even if someone yanked on your leash, you'd probably still try to eat it lol. 

Baby dogs are a lot like baby humans. It just takes time, and not days, or a week or two, but a really long time of consistent correction and teaching. PS, one of my daughters was a biter as a toddler. It was pretty horrifying, she was an adorable little 2 yr old bully. She bit people with no warning, she bit other kids at church, and company over at our house. No amount of correcting/punishing seemed to curb it. I understand how you feel about feel mortified in front of people. But it will get better. My daughter is 13 now and doesnt bite people anymore, and Im sure glad I didnt rehome her back when she was being a little monster, rofl.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lisak_87 said:


> It was clear to me that he was bullying and that his chase and biting were unwanted, that's about all the proof I can give of that.


Ok. I wasn't asking you to prove anything, I was just saying that _sometimes_ that stuff can be ok and it's hard for me to comment on it without seeing the puppies playing myself. *shrug*



> The leader told me to just keep removing him when he does that. She said do not punish, do not reprimand, just remove, walk him away, and try to calm him down before re-releasing. She wasn't mean, she wasn't overly concerned. She said to get him in as many classes as possible for exposure to situations and to just keep removing him when necessary.


In "Fight!", there's a good step by step guide of what to do in the case of bullying. I'm going by memory so I might be mangling this a bit, but basically, you pick a word like "enough" or whatever. When you're getting concerned about the play, say your word ONCE, then if they don't stop remove them temporarily. When they calm down, you let them back into play. After 3 strikes, say "too bad!" (or some other verbal marker) and they're removed from the situation entirely to somewhere boring. 




> I'm not expecting perfection, I'm hoping for improvement. As we've gone to more classes, this particular problem is getting worse and worse to the point where he is removed more than he is allowed to participate. He now lunges towards people and dogs while we're walking; the problem is getting worse and I'm feeling pretty helpless/clueless about how to get him to improve. I try to break his eye contact with my body. I try to distract with treats and commands. I am trying to work on impulse control.


He's just a baby. Progress takes a lot of time and a gazillion repetitions before he learns how to behave, and once he learns he may forget and need reminding. And your trainer is a great resource, ask them to help you.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

osdbmom said:


> Its hard to be patient with a little puppy, and its easy to beat ourselves up and think we arent doing it right, esp with the first one. But you are doing a great job. Puppies play fight, thats how they play. They arent going to sit down and quietly play with lego, lol. One puppy will yelp and that tells the offender that his bite was too hard....thats how they learn bite inhibition. When we first brought Zoey home, she nipped at my yougest son and bit at him a LOT. and she was 3 months when we got her, Brady is so little yet. I worked with her daily for months before she understood that she couldnt do that. Even though Brady is really smart, he's still just a baby. He may just be having so much fun and to him he's just playing that he doesnt know how to stop. Imagine being super hungry and tearing into a hot fudge sundae....even if someone yanked on your leash, you'd probably still try to eat it lol.
> 
> Baby dogs are a lot like baby humans. It just takes time, and not days, or a week or two, but a really long time of consistent correction and teaching. PS, one of my daughters was a biter as a toddler. It was pretty horrifying, she was an adorable little 2 yr old bully. She bit people with no warning, she bit other kids at church, and company over at our house. No amount of correcting/punishing seemed to curb it. I understand how you feel about feel mortified in front of people. But it will get better. My daughter is 13 now and doesnt bite people anymore, and Im sure glad I didnt rehome her back when she was being a little monster, rofl.


Thank you, and yes, I do understand it's going to take time. And I do need to calm down and not panic. 
He learned quickly not to bite people, so I'm sure he can learn not to bite or bully dogs. 
Perhaps I will first try bringing him to my mom's like was suggested and if after a couple of weeks I still cannot at least find a way to move forward, I'll hire the trainer.



sassafras said:


> Ok. I wasn't asking you to prove anything, I was just saying that _sometimes_ that stuff can be ok and it's hard for me to comment on it without seeing the puppies playing myself. *shrug*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will try the verbal remarks, that sounds like a good plan.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

lisak_87 said:


> Perhaps I will first try bringing him to my mom's like was suggested and if after a couple of weeks I still cannot at least find a way to move forward, I'll hire the trainer.


 A couple of weeks is not very long to give your pup to learn it's lessons in puppy class. Your dog is possibly intense and possibly overbearing with the other pups. But, he could be absolutely dong the right thing for himself at this time. Your trainer doesn't sound concerned. I really think you should take a HUGE cleansing breath. You are doing everything you can to help your dog learn self control. Some of the other pups in the class may need to learn that pushy dogs that don't actually bite are not something to be so afraid of. My dog has become best of friends with a very timid dog that runs away from every other dog. She has learned that he is all bluster and no bite and that, on the inside, he is actually a very submissive character. The 2 of them wrestle like gangbusters and chew all over each other.
All puppies have their lessons to learn. He may grow up to be a really rough player. I am afraid this will make you think of him differently, like he is a bad dog. There is room in the dog world for all kinds of play. Please be careful to not label him and color your opinion of him. He is so darn stinking cute!


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

MegaMuttMom said:


> A couple of weeks is not very long to give your pup to learn it's lessons in puppy class. Your dog is possibly intense and possibly overbearing with the other pups. But, he could be absolutely dong the right thing for himself at this time. Your trainer doesn't sound concerned. I really think you should take a HUGE cleansing breath. You are doing everything you can to help your dog learn self control. Some of the other pups in the class may need to learn that pushy dogs that don't actually bite are not something to be so afraid of. My dog has become best of friends with a very timid dog that runs away from every other dog. She has learned that he is all bluster and no bite and that, on the inside, he is actually a very submissive character. The 2 of them wrestle like gangbusters and chew all over each other.
> All puppies have their lessons to learn. He may grow up to be a really rough player. I am afraid this will make you think of him differently, like he is a bad dog. There is room in the dog world for all kinds of play. Please be careful to not label him and color your opinion of him. He is so darn stinking cute!


Thank you for the support. I still love him. I'm attempting to calm down now and just deal with this one step at a time.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I think I posted in one of your other threads, the one about how your first class went so well, to be careful to assume it would continue..lol. First class puppy doesn't know where he is, why everyone is there and his only connection to safety is YOU, so focus tends to stay on you. Second class he's decided it is a safe place to be a crazy man. Normal. The problem that arises is every single owner (most especially the never had a dog before owners) is they REALLY want to have a perfect puppy, one who does well in class, one who's behaviour is perfect etc. Every owner. Without fail. So, they end up setting themselves up to fail because every little problem seems huge. In doing that they also set up extremely high expectations on a very young, inexperienced, experimenting with what works ANIMAL. 

Puppy development is all about trying new things, for good or for bad. Play is play fighting, play courtship, play sex etc. It's exploration. We set up the rules and remove as necessary while teaching other skills that will eventually carry over into their social lives. Come is about priorities (you are the priority), off is about learning to control impulses, sit and down stays are about self control and SAFETY..but all of these skills take hundreds of repetitions under hundreds of circumstances for the brain to develop the proper response (learning). Puppy classes are not about teaching the puppy, per se, they are about the owner learning to teach the puppy. The actual learning often goes on in your homework sessions and everyday work/life. In order for you AND your pup to learn, you have to fail occasionally. So yes, you remove Brady from play each and every time he goes over the top. Period. Eventually he will learn (remember, HUNDREDS of reps) that fun ends when he does X behaviour. YOU will get better and better at recognizing when it's starting to go over the top, when he or the other pup playmate is feeling overwhelmed and after YOU have had hundreds of experiences doing it, you will have learned how to apply this information to teaching HIM. You are both on a huge learning curve.

Jean Donaldson's book is a great resource. I have an occasional Tarzan dog myself (she bullies CERTAIN dogs) and with training we have a damn good leave it so she doesn't have the opportunity to do so and she has relaxed much more because she knows what is expected. The number of times Cracker was leashed up and timed out and then on third strike was put back in the car while I stayed in the park with my client dogs...I think she only had to be "kennelled" in the car twice before her behaviour got much better..lol. 

You have a GSD mix. They are very vocal by nature, their play style is of the lunge and grab style and this will take time to mediate. Your trainer is correct that simply removing him from play (timed correctly and with a verbal marker) will get you there..eventually.

You may also want to take a look at the book "Control Unleashed" and get to work on clicker training some of the exercises in the book. It's a bit of a read, there is also a dvd available if you are a visual learner and there are some videos on youtube you can look at. 

Enjoy the puppy stages, sometimes it will seem you have a totally different puppy each week. Different things come up at different times in his brain development. You learn as you go, just as he does. You'll get there. And it will make you a much better trainer.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Cracker said:


> I think I posted in one of your other threads, the one about how your first class went so well, to be careful to assume it would continue..lol. First class puppy doesn't know where he is, why everyone is there and his only connection to safety is YOU, so focus tends to stay on you. Second class he's decided it is a safe place to be a crazy man. Normal. The problem that arises is every single owner (most especially the never had a dog before owners) is they REALLY want to have a perfect puppy, one who does well in class, one who's behaviour is perfect etc. Every owner. Without fail. So, they end up setting themselves up to fail because every little problem seems huge. In doing that they also set up extremely high expectations on a very young, inexperienced, experimenting with what works ANIMAL.
> 
> Puppy development is all about trying new things, for good or for bad. Play is play fighting, play courtship, play sex etc. It's exploration. We set up the rules and remove as necessary while teaching other skills that will eventually carry over into their social lives. Come is about priorities (you are the priority), off is about learning to control impulses, sit and down stays are about self control and SAFETY..but all of these skills take hundreds of repetitions under hundreds of circumstances for the brain to develop the proper response (learning). Puppy classes are not about teaching the puppy, per se, they are about the owner learning to teach the puppy. The actual learning often goes on in your homework sessions and everyday work/life. In order for you AND your pup to learn, you have to fail occasionally. So yes, you remove Brady from play each and every time he goes over the top. Period. Eventually he will learn (remember, HUNDREDS of reps) that fun ends when he does X behaviour. YOU will get better and better at recognizing when it's starting to go over the top, when he or the other pup playmate is feeling overwhelmed and after YOU have had hundreds of experiences doing it, you will have learned how to apply this information to teaching HIM. You are both on a huge learning curve.
> 
> ...



Yes, you did say that and I did remember it particularly last night. I admit to being in a panic, mostly feeling as if I've failed...as if my letting him play those 2 times w/ my mom's dog have ruined everything. I'm trying, now, to tell myself to just retrace my steps, bring him to my mom's, and begin to mediate. 

I definitely forget he is a puppy sometimes (particularly when he does something very non-puppy like) and, yes, I need the reminder. I will continue to remove him. I will find more classes and continue to remove him whenever he gets too rough. That's all I can do. 

And I'll bring tissues to wipe my nose when I cry in class after scooping him up for the millionth time -.-


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Lisa! LIGHTEN UP!!! (sorry.. sometimes sounding like my Mom helps!). HE IS ONLY 10 WEEKS OLD!!!! You are doing a GREATJOB with this dog!!! He is a BABY BABY BABY! 

Ease up. LAUGH at his silliness... because it is silliness.. and when he gets too over excited, leave the group, let him AND you calm down and return to the class. 

YOU ARE EXPECTING TOO MUCH! He is a real BABY yet. Heck.. if you need to REPEAT THE CLASS, the REPEAT it. Questa, the greatest, mmost obedient puppy ever born ound: is repeating Beginner 1 class!! At this stage $500+ for a trainer is over the top. 

Did you say at one point you are a worrier? I think you said that (tho I am dealing with a few people who do this! LOL). Take a BREATH and expect your puppy to act like.. well.. a puppy! HE is acting pretty much like a puppy and you are reacting like he is way outta line because you are too expectant. 

Your posts are the ones I look for on the forum because I expect you to end up in a year or two (yeah.. it takes that long) with a really great dog due to your effort. 

Now, go back and re-read WVasko's last post and all the other suggestions and realize that from puppy to adult is a road you travel and it is not always easy! It IS as fun as you let it be!


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> Lisa! LIGHTEN UP!!! (sorry.. sometimes sounding like my Mom helps!). HE IS ONLY 10 WEEKS OLD!!!! You are doing a GREATJOB with this dog!!! He is a BABY BABY BABY!
> 
> Ease up. LAUGH at his silliness... because it is silliness.. and when he gets too over excited, leave the group, let him AND you calm down and return to the class.
> 
> ...


lol and your responses are the ones I look for cus ya always tell me to chill out 

Yes, I am more than a worrier; I have major anxiety issues (and I'm in therapy for them )

I am calmer now, honestly. Everyone's advice has been noted and I'll be following lots of it. A path forward is what I needed; I was feeling out of control and helpless to move forward. I'm not hiring a $500 trainer, but I did just register him for another $95 4-week set of puppy classes at a well-reviewed place close to home. So, yay for opportunities.

I've got books to read, xanex to take (no, not really..wish I did though), and we'll work lots more on the leave it command. And we'll go to my mom's again and learn that Buster is not a chew toy.


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

I don't have any training info to add, I just wanted to say not to neglect yourself. When you get run down and emotional it won't help, I totally get the same way  and I'm a worrier too. Make time for yourself and your ww meetings, I know its easier said than done but either the pup can entertain himself while you go once a week or have someone watch him for the time-however you do it just be sure to make time for yourself.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

shellbeme said:


> I don't have any training info to add, I just wanted to say not to neglect yourself. When you get run down and emotional it won't help, I totally get the same way  and I'm a worrier too. Make time for yourself and your ww meetings, I know its easier said than done but either the pup can entertain himself while you go once a week or have someone watch him for the time-however you do it just be sure to make time for yourself.


My boyfriend and I had this conversation last night.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Use the dog and classes to work on your own anxiety issues. My golly you two can help each other. You need to control and keep a handle on YOUR anxiety to help him concentrate and learn to be a good dog. I think you will be good for each other especially if you learn to trust yourself and your dog and your dog learns to trust YOU. 

And remember.. control is HIGHLY OVERATED. Organized Chaos is usually the best we can hope for. I have worked out of organized chaos for years. My cats take total advantage of this.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Relax, be patient and be consistent. You'll do fine, Brady *will* grow up...he cant stay a puppy forever.

Labs & GSDs are some of the mouthiest puppies I have met. With patient & consistent training, they turn into some awesome adults. 

A couple clips from last summer and our experience with a young GSD named Dallas. The guy that owns Dallas' mom is friends with my brother in law. When the puppies were just shy of 8 weeks he gave Dallas to my BIL. Dallas came to visit us about every weekend. The first several visits, Buster would sniff Dallas but refused all play invitations. Dallas never gave up. We could have deemed him a bully and stopped having him over since Bus really didnt enjoy his company. We didnt. Dallas grew up a bit and Buster figured out how to play with a dog that much smaller. 

Buster was about 16 months, Dallas was about 4 months. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY_PpUNvC-k

Just over a month later...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3_OhOJO39U

This was the last time the boys got to play together. The next week Dallas was surrendered to MVGSDR (miss you, buddy!).


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> Use the dog and classes to work on your own anxiety issues. My golly you two can help each other. You need to control and keep a handle on YOUR anxiety to help him concentrate and learn to be a good dog. I think you will be good for each other especially if you learn to trust yourself and your dog and your dog learns to trust YOU.
> 
> And remember.. control is HIGHLY OVERATED. Organized Chaos is usually the best we can hope for. I have worked out of organized chaos for years. My cats take total advantage of this.


In all seriousness, I'm considering going back on medication.
Hopefully Brady and I do help eachother... I'm hoping to learn I can't control everything :\



LuvMyAngels said:


> Relax, be patient and be consistent. You'll do fine, Brady *will* grow up...he cant stay a puppy forever.
> 
> Labs & GSDs are some of the mouthiest puppies I have met. With patient & consistent training, they turn into some awesome adults.
> 
> ...


I'll have to peek at the videos when I get home (work blocks youtube. boo.).
I'm glad to hear they grow up; I don't think I could have an eternal puppy. 

If GSDs and Labs are extremely mouthy, then I must have lucked out. Brady has already learned that mouthing people is not good and he rarely slips up there (for now). So I'll count my blessings.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

Just think, once you get through this puppy phase, doing it again if you get another dog will seem easier! It's a learning experience. You are going to the class to help your dog be a better canine citizen, people know and understand that. You clearly care, so you are already a million time better than those people who bring their unruly dogs to the dog park and think it's funny when they hump other dog's faces (eg. my dog the receiver of said face humps) relentlessly.

I don't know if it was mentioned already but whatever training you are doing to help the situation, stay consistent. Pick one method and stick to it. It takes a while to see progress, but if you change up your methods it will take even longer or never work. I don't think that you're doing that from what I read of your posts but I thought it was worth mentioning. Use the same words, same tone, same timing, same reaction, every time.

Timing is really important, so get the trainers there to help you. I'm concerned because it looks like you are freaking out over it and they aren't really explaining much or doing anything to help reassure you that this is all normal and can be worked on. If you can't catch him within the first seconds of the behavior you don't want, get more people to step in and help catch him. If he knows he can get away if he tries harder, he will try harder. He's testing his limits, show him the way.

The other puppies in the class sound like they are helping by telling him off when they've had enough. It sounds like he knows when to stop sometimes, that means he's slowly learning. It's normal.

I don't think I need to mention, stay calm.  Its really frustrating I know, but they can pick up on your feelings and take advantage of it. Try your best, you can do it! I had a big ball of puppy energy that would get into these moods where he would throw himself at me like a wrecking ball to try to knock me down and mouth me. I just kept on training and he turned into a pretty calm, submissive dog that never did that in adulthood and never fought with any dog. They go through some really tough phases, just like human kids, and you just gotta keep pushing through it.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Well, I just finished reading "Off Leash Play" and here's what I've learned:

1.) My dog's actions are yellow lights, not red lights.
2.) Physical signals are much more effective than any noise I can make (though I HAVE been trying to body block him in class)
3.) My puppy is getting way overstimulated. The end.

So I'm gonna rephrase. My puppy is not a bully; my puppy gets overstimulated by play quite easily. He greets just as he should (full-body sniff down), he gives pacifying body gestures in the beginning, and it is only once he gets over stimulated that he becomes nearly impossible.



Indigo said:


> Just think, once you get through this puppy phase, doing it again if you get another dog will seem easier! It's a learning experience. You are going to the class to help your dog be a better canine citizen, people know and understand that. You clearly care, so you are already a million time better than those people who bring their unruly dogs to the dog park and think it's funny when they hump other dog's faces (eg. my dog the receiver of said face humps) relentlessly.
> 
> I don't know if it was mentioned already but whatever training you are doing to help the situation, stay consistent. Pick one method and stick to it. It takes a while to see progress, but if you change up your methods it will take even longer or never work. I don't think that you're doing that from what I read of your posts but I thought it was worth mentioning. Use the same words, same tone, same timing, same reaction, every time.
> 
> ...


I wonder how he percieved mommy crying on him last night.

The 2 instructors from last night were very reassuring and kind to me. I'm going to continue w/ the removal method because that is how I've always ended it.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

It sounds like you've calmed down, and you have a plan of action, as well as a better understanding of YOUR reactions AND your PUPPY's reactions!  Yay!

I will just say that I have often felt like a bad puppy mom. Harper is older than yours, but is reactive around other dogs, although we're making progress. In the beginning I felt like I couldn't handle him and I felt like I must have done something wrong, and like people were judging me for having an ill behaved dog.

Eventually, I realized that he is what he is, and with reactive dogs (mine, since yours is just plan being a puppy, and doesn't have Harper's issues!  ) it's about management, and making progress, because he will always have a bit of a reactive issue. So, I have accepted him for how he is, and are working to improve what we can, and not try to make him into the "perfect" dog. (Although, I love him so much that he really is just the perfect dog for me!)

Make sure you don't internalize HIS behavior, or blame yourself, because, as someone else posted, he IS his own puppy with his own personality! 

Also, as for "self control" we've been working on Doggy Zen; read the sticky! It's done great things for our dogs!


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## Taryn (Feb 9, 2011)

Dexter(he's 18 months- 2 years old) plays hard just like Brady and he was mouthy at first with people. I broke him of the mouthing people rather easily when we adopted him in Jan or Feb. I do let him wrestle with other dogs but only if the other dog consents to it(and the owner understands they are playing.) If he does it to an unwilling(or scared) dog he is redirected and if he keeps at it we leave the dog park. He likes to wrestle and likes full grown Great Danes and Labs since they are the most likely to be willing to wrestle with him. He is also a big growler when it comes to play. He is a very verbal dog, with noises but rarely barks, and if he does all I have to do is say 'enough' and he immediately stops. It is just how he is. Like I said I do allow it if the other dog consents to it, but he is also not a puppy and knows how to be gentle, so he already knows limits. I did notice when we first started going to the dog park that if I didn't exercise him well beforehand he behaved 'badly' so exercise before going to class would be good if you don't already do so you might try that. You are working on this and if Dexter didn't have an off switch I wouldn't allow him to play rough until he learned. 

You are being responsible and not letting him be out of control and are teaching him but remember he's a baby. Just like housebreaking, they don't come pre-trained knowing what to do. You aren't one of those owners who would laugh and/or ignore your dog if he mounted another dog or played rough with an unwilling/ scared dog. That is a big pet peeve of mine, when the owner laughs and/or doesn't intervene when Dexter is mounted. It's not that the dog does it, Dexter still does it on occasion(not often, just every once in a while, and they are animals and I expect them to act as such), after a beagle told him with his teeth that he didn't like it(which Dexter fully deserved) he hasn't done it as much(he wasn't a serial offender but did it more often than he does now), so other dogs do help in the teaching process, but I immediately intervene and get him off the other dog(even though 99% of the time he's off the other dog the second I say off so I don't have to physically remove him.) I hate having to remove another dog from on top of mine when he is mounted because the other owner is oblivious(and his dog is a serial offender, I can understand maybe not seeing it immediately once and the dogs stopping before they can respond) or even worse finds it funny or ignores it. Not funny and definitely not something to ignore, how is the dog supposed to know he can't behave like that unless you teach him.

Just calm down and relax Brady is acting like a puppy, all puppies behave like that, which is why most adult dogs are tolerant of puppies behaving like that.

Taryn


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Brady is going to teach you that you cannot control everything and (more importantly) that it is OK not to and (even more important) that not controlling things can be fun!!!! 

Try this the next time he is at class and gets over stimulated. Laugh. I mean it. Lets face it.. here is a 10 week old puppy who is outta control and by that very madness is getting his all grown up handler out of control. I bet Brady is thinking, "Wow. I can run the WORLD and the PEOPLE IN IT!" Sometimes when you laugh at a dog they stop and look at you like you are crazy. 

Those are lofty things for a little 10 week old puppy!


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Thank you again everyone for your advice.

Tonight was both a rough and a positive night. I tried taking Brady on a walk and it just was NOT working. He would pull to go home and whine whine whine unless another person/dog was coming, at which point he would sit, go still, watch, and then want to lunge (playfully). I was at m wit's end. I couldn't get him to move and then he'd be pulling and flipping all over on the end of the leash. I tried being a tree; that did NOT work. I was literally a tree for 30 minutes.

Then my neighbor came out and helped me. She and her friend went on a walk WITH us and voila! Instantly different puppy. We walked PAST strangers with just looking at them...we ....actually WALKED. Suddenly he had a pack! And he moved with us. 

I'm hoping this need to walk with multiple people only is a temporary thing, but until we can get him to walk with just one person on the leash, we're going to try walking together (boyfriend and I) or w/ my neighbor who graciously volunteered to walk with us (ARGH! Why do we have to be moving in 3 weeks??)

We did our training and he has totally got the "leave it" command much better now. Hopefully I will eventually be able to apply this command to other things than treats. I also started training him to come when I "whoop!" A "whoop!" means a treat. This is going to take work; but I think it WILL work. He turned and came ONCE when he was going to play w/ the cat and I whooped. 

My boyfriend and I also decided to extend his area where he's allowed to play w/ supervision. He gets to run throughout our former roommate's empty room and the living room now, so the zoomies had much more area to cover tonight.

I really do agree that exercise is a big part of the answer; I am just struggling w/ ways to allow him exercise since he won't walk with just me.

I also wanted to add this:

my neighbor has a 10 year old german shepherd. Whe brady p*ssed her off, she snapped (air snap) twice. Brady then proceeded to try and jump all over her (I removed him)


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## BrittanieJo (Sep 23, 2010)

Lisa I just wanted to add that my dog is the mouthiest dog I've ever met in my life and I have so felt the way you have. Then I just realized, she doesn't know she's doing the wrong thing and me getting mad/upset isn't helping. Instead we just have to work harder and continue on with her lessons. Don't stress so much you are doing EVERYTHING right and this dog is going to be wonderful when he's a grown up. Aggie is 9 months old now and going through her teenage months so it's a battle every day again. We start her second round of obiendence classes in May and can't wait to focus her in again. Also, I don't think rough play is a bad thing but I know how you feel. We don't let Aggie play with small dogs because she does have a high prey drive and won't stop chasing them. We only allow her around dogs her size or bigger and she does wonderfully. Our friends labs play rough and she loves visiting them and when she gets out of hand they correct her, every time they play she does even better. She's learned tail biting is not allowed from them and that running is even more fun than wrestling all the time . He will get it I promise. *big hugs* take a deep breath and just look how cute he is!


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

BrittanieJo said:


> Lisa I just wanted to add that my dog is the mouthiest dog I've ever met in my life and I have so felt the way you have. Then I just realized, she doesn't know she's doing the wrong thing and me getting mad/upset isn't helping. Instead we just have to work harder and continue on with her lessons. Don't stress so much you are doing EVERYTHING right and this dog is going to be wonderful when he's a grown up. Aggie is 9 months old now and going through her teenage months so it's a battle every day again. We start her second round of obiendence classes in May and can't wait to focus her in again. Also, I don't think rough play is a bad thing but I know how you feel. We don't let Aggie play with small dogs because she does have a high prey drive and won't stop chasing them. We only allow her around dogs her size or bigger and she does wonderfully. Our friends labs play rough and she loves visiting them and when she gets out of hand they correct her, every time they play she does even better. She's learned tail biting is not allowed from them and that running is even more fun than wrestling all the time . He will get it I promise. *big hugs* take a deep breath and just look how cute he is!


Well, see, this is one thing that is confusing me. I'm being told his play is not appropriate and to remove him/stop it. I know no one here can offer an opinion without seeing it... but I'm confused. I'm currently just going to do what I'm told by my trainer(s): let him play, but remove him as soon as it becomes too rough. The thing is, it really IS just play. I noticed w/ my mom's dog he jumps at him sideways (growling and sideways body-slamming)..he lunges forward into his body nipping too, but the sideways thing really caught my attention sideways "attacks" are not aggressive; that's definitely play. And my mom's dog just...adores it. 

But I am just going to continue to call him away/remove him when he does these things I guess... ?? bleh


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Here's some hope you can hang onto: my dog was the WORST dog in puppy class. She lunged, yelped, pulled, strained -- did anything she could to get to the other dogs. She had zero interest in treats or in paying attention to us. All she wanted was to play, play, play. And roughly. She was a ruff biter and a body slammer. The one thing she never did was bite legs, tails, or tummies. That's how I knew it was play and not aggression. We had to get her a harness because she would choke herself on her collar with her pulling. The harness was the best thing we ever did. Not only did it save her from damaging her neck, it helped us train her to walk like a dream on a leash.

Fast forward to today: my dog is the BEST dog around other dogs of any dog I've seen. She knows when to back off and when she can really go to town with a like-minded dog. She's great with puppies and knows to leave older dogs alone. She learned all of this through a lot of daycare and contact with a lot of other dogs. And timely interventions from us when she was acting in a way that made another dog, or more likely, owner, uncomfortable.

So your dog will get there. Yes, it's embarrassing when the other puppy owners pull their dog away from yours because they're afraid your dog will pounce on theirs. And it's embarrassing when you can't demo what the dog has learned (and done perfectly at home and in 10 other places!) in the last week because he's sooo focused on the other dogs. Who cares. As wvasko said, just focus on your dog and don't worry about the other people in class. Absorb as much as you can so you can repeat, repeat a million times at home and everywhere else.

One last bit that I wish I had known when we were raising our pup: buy a long line (at least 30 ft) and keep your pup on it until his recall is excellent - in class, in your yard, everywhere. Letting him tear around puppy class without being able to easily and immediately rein him in when you call teaches him that he doesn't have to listen to you. Nip that in the bud right now and tether him.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

winniec777 said:


> Here's some hope you can hang onto: my dog was the WORST dog in puppy class. She lunged, yelped, pulled, strained -- did anything she could to get to the other dogs. She had zero interest in treats or in paying attention to us. All she wanted was to play, play, play. And roughly. She was a ruff biter and a body slammer. The one thing she never did was bite legs, tails, or tummies. That's how I knew it was play and not aggression. We had to get her a harness because she would choke herself on her collar with her pulling. The harness was the best thing we ever did. Not only did it save her from damaging her neck, it helped us train her to walk like a dream on a leash.
> 
> Fast forward to today: my dog is the BEST dog around other dogs of any dog I've seen. She knows when to back off and when she can really go to town with a like-minded dog. She's great with puppies and knows to leave older dogs alone. She learned all of this through a lot of daycare and contact with a lot of other dogs. And timely interventions from us when she was acting in a way that made another dog, or more likely, owner, uncomfortable.
> 
> ...


So...is the fact that my dog DOES bite legs, tails, and tummies a sign that it IS aggression? Cus he's a biiiig leg biter.

I really hope he does get better :\


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

My adult dog bites my puppy's legs in play. She's just a bit rude when it comes to playing with him. I let her mouth at him, but if she starts actually grabbing his legs or tail I remove her. She used to be so gentle when he was little, now she's just a pain, and my puppy is so tolerant of her. Poor thing.

Anyway, biting legs isn't necessarily aggression either.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Anyway, biting legs isn't necessarily aggression either.


Yea Pip and Maisy will try to do that to each other when they're playing, too.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Aggressive PLAY is not aggression. It's not. It's just rough play. The concern on the behalf of the trainer is likely that rough players eventually can get into trouble when their "puppy license" runs out at about 5 months and that they can be intimidating to other non rough players...and in puppy class especially, play is for socialization purposes and it's very important that ALL the puppies have positive interactions with each other. If he learns to mediate his play style, he will be a safer dog all round and better mannered. Simple as that. 

In our puppy class our head trainer stops play for vocalization, ear grabbing that does not have a quick release, excessive leg grabbing, collar grabbing and humping. None of these are aggressive behaviours but are simply unfair to the other dog and have the potential to cause injury (especially collar grabbing). When I go to dog parks with my dogs in tow (I'm a dog walker) I don't mind vocalization (I use it as a gauge of intensity, because you can HEAR the increase in stimulation) but all the other rules also apply. Humping is not a problem in most cases as the other dog will often tell the dog off, if not I stop it. Old dogs, small dogs, dogs with bad backs/hips/legs can be injured by being humped so we keep it to a minimum. Leg biting etc is just RUDE, body slamming at high speeds is rude and dangerous etc. Two on one or three on one is not allowed either, as it is very easy for the "one" to get intimidated and for things to go over the top. High speed chase games are not allowed to go on too long as they change from play to prey...it's ALL about the dogs learning self control so they don't tip over too much into instinctive behaviour. None of the dogs are naturally aggressive, but adrenaline is adrenaline. So the worries about play are not about aggression, but about long term positive socialization and safety. That is all.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Cracker said:


> Aggressive PLAY is not aggression. It's not. It's just rough play. The concern on the behalf of the trainer is likely that rough players eventually can get into trouble when their "puppy license" runs out at about 5 months and that they can be intimidating to other non rough players...and in puppy class especially, play is for socialization purposes and it's very important that ALL the puppies have positive interactions with each other. If he learns to mediate his play style, he will be a safer dog all round and better mannered. Simple as that.
> 
> In our puppy class our head trainer stops play for vocalization, ear grabbing that does not have a quick release, excessive leg grabbing, collar grabbing and humping. None of these are aggressive behaviours but are simply unfair to the other dog and have the potential to cause injury (especially collar grabbing). When I go to dog parks with my dogs in tow (I'm a dog walker) I don't mind vocalization (I use it as a gauge of intensity, because you can HEAR the increase in stimulation) but all the other rules also apply. Humping is not a problem in most cases as the other dog will often tell the dog off, if not I stop it. Old dogs, small dogs, dogs with bad backs/hips/legs can be injured by being humped so we keep it to a minimum. Leg biting etc is just RUDE, body slamming at high speeds is rude and dangerous etc. Two on one or three on one is not allowed either, as it is very easy for the "one" to get intimidated and for things to go over the top. High speed chase games are not allowed to go on too long as they change from play to prey...it's ALL about the dogs learning self control so they don't tip over too much into instinctive behaviour. None of the dogs are naturally aggressive, but adrenaline is adrenaline. So the worries about play are not about aggression, but about long term positive socialization and safety. That is all.


 That all sounds exactly right in Brady's case. Like I said, none of his actions are "red light" actions; they are "yellow light" actions. So that's why we stop it. (See, I am learning!) lol. He especially goes for legs during a high speed chase. Well duh...that's a good way to stop 'em from running away 

We went on a nice successful walk this morning. (It's like last night's walk w/ a "pack" taught him how to walk w/ just me!) I think if we can keep the exercise going now, that will really help. He was actually very good on the leash too! I'm also thinking of getting a long leash w/ a peg so we can go sit outside and I can watch him but he can have a little romp time. (Supervised of course)...since we don't have a yard, I thought this might work.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Questa (10 months old) will latch on to Atka's (4 years old) neck and hang on. Atka will do the same to Questa. When Questa gets too annoying (and she can be VERY annoying) Atka will reach down and try to grab her front legs. All this is accompanied by barks, growling, bared teeth, body slams and running around. When Atka has had enough she lets Questa know it. 

We WERE having another issue of out and out aggression on Atka's part but Atka and I had a talk and I now do spend time with JUST Atka (and time with JUST Questa) so that is a lot better. In fact, I have not seen any out and out aggression from Atka in weeks now. I watch all the time too. 

Atka WILL get the zoomies and then run for all she is worth. She USED to outrun Questa but that is changing. Atka can pour on the gas and run truly flat out and Questa easily keeps up with her. Sometimes Questa runs and Atka chases too. 

Puppies have a "puppy pass" with older dogs up to a point.. and the older dog will let the puppy know when enough is enough. It is important for the puppy to learn that lesson from another dog. To that end, ALWAYS stopping play is not always the best thing either.

If you are looking for a specific set of rules, that is not going to happen. All dogs are different and all dogs react to each other differently. You have to play this by ear (this is what Brady can teach you to do). 

There is a book on www.dogwise.com by Brenda Aloff "CANING BODY LANGUAGE: A PHOTOGRAPHIC GUIDE" and DVD's you can get from them such as "THE LANGUAGE OF DOGS - UNDERSTANDING CANINE BODY LANGUAGE AND OTHER COMMUNICATION SIGNALS DVD SET" by Sarah Kalnajs and a DVD set from Patricia McConnell: "DOG PLAY - UNDERSTANDING PLAY BETWEEN DOGS AND BETWEEN DOGS AND PEOPLE DVD"

You might find those helpful.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> Questa (10 months old) will latch on to Atka's (4 years old) neck and hang on. Atka will do the same to Questa. When Questa gets too annoying (and she can be VERY annoying) Atka will reach down and try to grab her front legs. All this is accompanied by barks, growling, bared teeth, body slams and running around. When Atka has had enough she lets Questa know it.
> 
> We WERE having another issue of out and out aggression on Atka's part but Atka and I had a talk and I now do spend time with JUST Atka (and time with JUST Questa) so that is a lot better. In fact, I have not seen any out and out aggression from Atka in weeks now. I watch all the time too.
> 
> ...


I will remember these add them to the list. Off-Leash Play was helpful, and I am now reading The Other End of the Leash...and I have How to raise a puppy you can live with on its way here.

My rule for right now is basically this: give the other dog a chance to respond. Remove if Brady doesn't listen. Praise when he does.

That's about all I can do. Like last night when the adult dog snapped at him twice and then he proceeded to try and pounce on her head-on (playfully though, I could tell), I removed him.

*Cue the music*

HAAAALELLUIA! HAAAALELLUIA!


I just talked to a local daycare that pairs dogs up or puts them in trios based on play style instead of letting it be some sort of mosh pit. I explained Brady's play style to them and how he bites at legs and chases dogs down...they said he was more than welcome to come! AND he can go THIS SATURDAY!

HOORAY! I'll get a chance to pack! And I may have found a place Brady can go to burn off some of his energy sometimes 
This would be soooo great.


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