# Grain-Free Dog Food... Is it Better for Dental Health?



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Louie has overcrowding in his teeth and thus gets tartar build-up _fast._ We have been looking for affordable things to do every day that keeps the doctor away, so to speak. I had heard talk that feeding grain-free kibble is better for the teeth than with.

If it is, any good affordable foods out there? He needs small bites and has a bad chicken intolerance so finding anything, let alone affordable, quality food in general is an adventure at our pet store.

Edit: He is currently on Taste of the Wild high prarie puppy, but normally on Diamond Naturals Lamb and Rice.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmm. I'm not really sure why it would be better for his teeth. There is some conjecture that a food with higher protein will be better for their teeth because it will have less carbs/sugar to feed the tooth nasties. But not all grain-free foods are higher in protein. IF that even makes a difference, because any kibble needs a fair amount of carbs to keep it together.

Doesn't High Prairie have chicken meal? Is he doing OK on it? (Oops, didn't realize the puppy food had vastly different ingredients than the adult food. So he can have eggs?)

For a small dog I might consider canned food or a premade raw. Or something like Ziwipeak. Fewer things that will stick to/in between his teeth.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

No, kibble is kibble grain free or not.

I have a Pomeranian x Chihuahua, with crappy genes (puppy mill rescue). The only thing that's helped has been putting him on Prey Model Raw so that he gets RMBs regularly, and brushing his teeth with enzymatic cleaner everyday. I use PetzLife with a microfiber finger brush at least once a day (twice if I can remember).

He also gets lots of things to chew on.

Despite all my efforts, though, he is still getting some plaque/tartar buildup, but not nearly as bad as other small dogs his size and age


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## doglover24 (Jul 17, 2014)

Ive never heard of it being better for teeth, but i do know that grain free foods is better for dogs over all. I would recommend grain free to every dog, unless a dog has a super sensitive stomach and they would need the grain to harden them up so to speak (but then again, there are other ways to do so than adding grain) 

Find something your dog likes, logan will do backflips for chicken and liver, duck may be a little greasy for some dogs, beef is a popular choice and fish is good for dogs with sensitive tummies and not so great coats. It just comes down to what you think suits your dog best. 

Here is a list of a ton of grain free foods (http:/www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/best-grain-free-dog-foods/best-grain-free-dog-foods-dry/), check and see what ones your local pet store has and then go through them, or just go into your store and look at the ingredients (no by-product meal, grains, no strange chemicals ect..) should be meat, fruits and veggies. 

As for the teeth, they do sell the dental treats, rope toys are also good for their teeth as they can act as a floss and just a tooth brush they sell at petsmart. 




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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

We already brush his teeth with enzymatic toothpaste and give him dental chews and a multivitamin every night. We also give him a chicken winglet every 2 weeks. Because he has an intolerance to chicken protein, he has to build up enough in his system to be affected. One winglet doesn't affect him much, as it barely crosses the threshold.

We try to go grain-free when we can, but it's hard to find foods that doesn't cost more per pound than the food us humans eat! I think the dogs have it better nutritionally than we do already...

So Willowy, canned food? The only experience I've had with it is Pedigree dog food for kong stuffing. I know for sure that won't be good for Louie's teeth at all, but I'm at a loss as to what to look for ingredient-wise.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

BigLittle said:


> We already brush his teeth with enzymatic toothpaste and give him dental chews and a multivitamin every night. We also give him a chicken winglet every 2 weeks. Because he has an intolerance to chicken protein, he has to build up enough in his system to be affected. One winglet doesn't affect him much, as it barely crosses the threshold.
> 
> We try to go grain-free when we can, but it's hard to find foods that doesn't cost more per pound than the food us humans eat! I think the dogs have it better nutritionally than we do already...
> 
> So Willowy, canned food? The only experience I've had with it is Pedigree dog food for kong stuffing. I know for sure that won't be good for Louie's teeth at all, but I'm at a loss as to what to look for ingredient-wise.


Instead of a single chicken winglet, try something larger and more complicated, like a rack of pork ribs. You can give whatever Louie doesn't finish to Clyde 

Yeah premium kibbles are expensive! I feed Meeko raw and it actually costs me less than some premium kibble brands >_>


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Premium kibble vs raw...I was surprised when I purchased kibble recently when we left the dogs with a friend while we went on vacation. We have small dogs so I was buying a small bag. Of course if you buy the larger bag the price per pound generally comes own. But $3-4/ pound?!!! I cringe when I have to pay $1.50/pound for something in their raw diet.

We have one elderly dog who came to us with horrible food allergies many years ago and that's how we started on the raw food diet. It was also around the time that all of the kibbles we having massive recalls. But since having put out the $$$ recently for kibble, my dogs will stay on raw, so much cheaper!

Also, a week afer we returned from vacation both the puppy and the older dog came down with an intestinal virus. Since we were unsuccessful managing things on our own and it lasted for more than a day or two, both dogs ended up at the vet for fluids and some blood work. The vet was flat out amazed at the blood work on our 14 year old dog. She said she rarely sees and elderly dog with really great kidneys and liver function. So to those who worry about too much protein in a raw diet...don't. Cally has other problems of old age (declining vision especially at night and deaf as a rock) so raw is not the cure for everything. But I am pleased with the results we have seen over the years. Our raw diet is basically franken-prey since they get grocery store stuff. We do not feed fruits/veggies or grain. 

I'm just curious...with all that cheap grain filler why kibble is so darn expensive?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

haha I was shocked at the prices when I went on vacation in June and needed kibble for the trip! now Gem eats mostly kibble with some raw, but she is only one dog, so I don't really think about it, feeding her mostly kibble(even super pricey kibble) is a whole heck of a lot cheaper then feeding a large extremely active dog entirely raw with no chicken or beef inclusion(allergies), the choice for her is $80 for a month of kibble supplemented with raw($40-50/month) or $200/month to feed her all raw. but when I needed kibble for our road trip...I needed 7 days worth of food for 5 dogs(4 large, 1 small)..I calculated how much I would need...I needed a 30lbs bag to just barley last me 1 week..I was REALLY balking at the idea of paying $80+ for only a single week of food! I don't pay anywhere NEAR that much to feed 6 dogs on entirely raw and I don't even have freezer space for buying in bulk :faint: I ended up just grabbing a bag of food from work so I could get it for cost lol


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

How much does raw normally cost per pound? If it's not much more than $1 USD per pound, I might want to do 1/2 raw 1/2 kibble for Louie's diet. I always knew it was best for dogs' teeth, but assumed it would cost more than kibble.

I might just swing by the local Filipino market with my grandma to look at meat prices this week.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

The cost of raw varies greatly depending on local prices, cuts of meat and protein source. Premade is substantially more expensive than home prepared. 
Obviously eating RMBs is great for a dogs teeth but I feel like the trend of dental care debating will never end. What's better for teeth? Cooked? Canned? Kibble? Grain free? Etc etc. 
The truth is that if everyone just took the very small amount of time to brush their dogs teeth everyday, you could feed whatever you want and your dog would still probably have great teeth. 
My dog is a small breed and eats 90% grain inclusive kibble but I brush his teeth every night before bed. It literally takes me 1-2 mins tops and the vet said his teeth were "absolutely beautiful" at his last check up. I use the enzymatic toothpaste from the vet. It runs me about $12 a tube tax in which lasts about 3 months. So were talking about $4 (and 30 mins) a month for my dog to have perfect teeth. It blows my mind how much money people waste on greenies and water additives and crap for their dogs hoping that maybe they can push off the dental cleaning 6 more months all because they're too damn lazy to put a little elbow grease in. Greenies around here cost about $40 a box. And I'm not convinced they do much at all. And people buy them like they're free at Petsmart around here. 
I feel like telling them all just to give me the $40 and I'll come brush their dogs teeth for them. Haha


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

BigLittle said:


> We already brush his teeth with enzymatic toothpaste and give him dental chews and a multivitamin every night. We also give him a chicken winglet every 2 weeks.


The thing is, we brush his teeth religiously. Every night except on raw chicken bone night.

The dental chew we also give is a crushed rawhide stick. We discovered it by accident when we gave it to Clyde a few days in a row and saw his tartar buildup dissappear a bit.

For Clyde, daily brushing plus a rawhide stick leaves his teeth looking shiny white with only insignificant spots of tartar in hard areas.

For Louie, after doing what I said earlier in the above quote since he turned 9 months, the tartar went from spreading like the plague to building slowly in specific areas. I want to stop or reverse the tartar growth. It's close to that point, so splitting hairs can mean the difference between dental extractions later and spending 5 cents more per month to keep his teeth clean.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

BigLittle said:


> How much does raw normally cost per pound? If it's not much more than $1 USD per pound, I might want to do 1/2 raw 1/2 kibble for Louie's diet. I always knew it was best for dogs' teeth, but assumed it would cost more than kibble.
> 
> I might just swing by the local Filipino market with my grandma to look at meat prices this week.


Definitely look into it! Price will vary by what you give, but giving him larger chunks of meat, bone, etc. on a regular basis will probably help with his teeth.

Unfortunately it's just one of those things you have to deal with when you have toy breeds.

I live in Canada, so prices are different here, but it costs me approximately $20/month feeding 2/3 red meat and 1/3 white meat (beef, pork, chicken mostly but quail, rabbit, etc. are in the mix too) -- that would be the same amount that I would spend on premium kibble... so to me it doesn't make that much of a difference.

How big is your dog? Honestly if he's under 10 lbs it will be very affordable to feed him raw


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## siulongluiy (Oct 11, 2013)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> The cost of raw varies greatly depending on local prices, cuts of meat and protein source. Premade is substantially more expensive than home prepared.
> Obviously eating RMBs is great for a dogs teeth but I feel like the trend of dental care debating will never end. What's better for teeth? Cooked? Canned? Kibble? Grain free? Etc etc.
> The truth is that if everyone just took the very small amount of time to brush their dogs teeth everyday, you could feed whatever you want and your dog would still probably have great teeth.
> My dog is a small breed and eats 90% grain inclusive kibble but I brush his teeth every night before bed. It literally takes me 1-2 mins tops and the vet said his teeth were "absolutely beautiful" at his last check up. I use the enzymatic toothpaste from the vet. It runs me about $12 a tube tax in which lasts about 3 months. So were talking about $4 (and 30 mins) a month for my dog to have perfect teeth. It blows my mind how much money people waste on greenies and water additives and crap for their dogs hoping that maybe they can push off the dental cleaning 6 more months all because they're too damn lazy to put a little elbow grease in. Greenies around here cost about $40 a box. And I'm not convinced they do much at all. And people buy them like they're free at Petsmart around here.
> I feel like telling them all just to give me the $40 and I'll come brush their dogs teeth for them. Haha


I was always told that kibble is a way to act as a cleanser for the pup's teeth as when they bite it rubs against the teeth and hence acts as a brush. I have also heard from friends who have fed both that when feeding raw bone supplements must be given so that the pup can have something hard to chew on to rub up again their teeth in order to clean them since the soft food will not do so.

I only feed kibble myself and I do in fact use Greenies. Yes they are $40 a pop, but with the pearly whites that Oatmeal have, I do not mind paying so. In saying so, Oatmeal has no doggy breath what so ever. He is my first and I am pleased to say that no other dog I know have a cleaner breath than my pup! Heck, I even have a scent myself and he doesn't! =)

My vet is very keen on dental hygiene and she has only praised me on how nice Oatmeal's teeth are. So in my opinion Greenies do work and no they are not free!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

siulongluiy said:


> I was always told that kibble is a way to act as a cleanser for the pup's teeth as when they bite it rubs against the teeth and hence acts as a brush. I have also heard from friends who have fed both that when feeding raw bone supplements must be given so that the pup can have something hard to chew on to rub up again their teeth in order to clean them since the soft food will not do so.
> 
> I only feed kibble myself and I do in fact use Greenies. Yes they are $40 a pop, but with the pearly whites that Oatmeal have, I do not mind paying so. In saying so, Oatmeal has no doggy breath what so ever. He is my first and I am pleased to say that no other dog I know have a cleaner breath than my pup! Heck, I even have a scent myself and he doesn't! =)
> 
> My vet is very keen on dental hygiene and she has only praised me on how nice Oatmeal's teeth are. So in my opinion Greenies do work and no they are not free!


Kibble does not actually clean teeth. It's like eating biscuits and expecting them to clean your teeth lol.

I don't know what you mean by "bone supplements". I give a balanced diet of meat, organs and bones. He gets real bones, and his teeth are cleaner than kibble-fed dogs his size. He gets more chewing done when he gets raw than when he is given kibble.


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## siulongluiy (Oct 11, 2013)

taquitos said:


> Kibble does not actually clean teeth. It's like eating biscuits and expecting them to clean your teeth lol.
> 
> I don't know what you mean by "bone supplements". I give a balanced diet of meat, organs and bones. He gets real bones, and his teeth are cleaner than kibble-fed dogs his size. He gets more chewing done when he gets raw than when he is given kibble.


The Kibble rubs against the teeth so it kinda chips away what it on the teeth; I guess mildy brushing it. Biscuits in my opinion would crumble, so I would say like how we eat gum? But not the sticky stuff =P

I guess because Oatmeal actually chews his food and doesn't just hoover he gets the advantage =)

By 'bone supplements' I mean as a chew. I could have been more specific... That would be the cleaner instead of the food itself is was I meant.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

siulongluiy said:


> The Kibble rubs against the teeth so it kinda chips away what it on the teeth; I guess mildy brushing it. Biscuits in my opinion would crumble, so I would say like how we eat gum? But not the sticky stuff =P
> 
> I guess because Oatmeal actually chews his food and doesn't just hoover he gets the advantage =)
> 
> By 'bone supplements' I mean as a chew. I could have been more specific... That would be the cleaner instead of the food itself is was I meant.


It's not true though. Kibble crumbles, just like a biscuit. If we ate hard pellet like food everyday and expected it to clean teeth, we would consider it unrealistic. The same applies to dogs. Kibble leaves residue that builds up into plaque and tartar. It is no more superior in teeth cleaning than wet food. The only study I have seen mentioned in a lot of these ads for kibble that clean teeth only showed that the larger the item (and therefore require the dog to chew), the more effective it is in "cleaning" teeth.

My dog chews on much bigger things than kibble on a daily basis because of his diet. I do not give supplementary bones to clean his teeth. Whatever bone I give him, it's a part of his diet  I don't think you understand how raw (at least prey model raw) works  My dog gets a chicken wing or pork rib twice a week. I guess you could consider that a "chew" but it's an essential part of his diet. Without it he would be deficient in important nutrients. If I give him recreational chews, I still give him edible ones that count as a part of his meal. For example, if he gets a beef neck bone, then I let him chew it for half an hour, and then I take it away. For the next week or so, I would not give him anymore bone because he already had his weekly amount of bone.


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## siulongluiy (Oct 11, 2013)

taquitos said:


> It's not true though. Kibble crumbles, just like a biscuit. If we ate hard pellet like food everyday and expected it to clean teeth, we would consider it unrealistic. The same applies to dogs. Kibble leaves residue that builds up into plaque and tartar. It is no more superior in teeth cleaning than wet food. The only study I have seen mentioned in a lot of these ads for kibble that clean teeth only showed that the larger the item (and therefore require the dog to chew), the more effective it is in "cleaning" teeth.


Maybe that is true, but the Fromm Grain Free line that he is on is tiny, even pea size and his teeth are spotless!



taquitos said:


> My dog chews on much bigger things than kibble on a daily basis because of his diet. I do not give supplementary bones to clean his teeth. Whatever bone I give him, it's a part of his diet  I don't think you understand how raw (at least prey model raw) works  My dog gets a chicken wing or pork rib twice a week. I guess you could consider that a "chew" but it's an essential part of his diet. Without it he would be deficient in important nutrients. If I give him recreational chews, I still give him edible ones that count as a part of his meal. For example, if he gets a beef neck bone, then I let him chew it for half an hour, and then I take it away. For the next week or so, I would not give him anymore bone because he already had his weekly amount of bone.


You are taking my word for word too specifically, I don't mean the Chew as a toy/recreational. I will admit that I do not know the raw diet very well as I chose not to feed it since his kibble diet is working great. If it's not broken why fix it? =)

I meant it as the harder item in the diet which will assist in the cleansing.

So all in all, I am saying that the items in their diets that will assist in teeth cleansing will be the harder/larger portion of their diets. Of course what's in the diet itself has something to do with the quality of teeth but just because something is grain free as the OP stated won't necessarily be the only factor in determining if the pup will have better teeth than grain inclusive diets.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Checked out the Filipino market. They had some pretty interesting cuts and about as much fresh fish as the rest of the meat. The fish was the only thing with a good price in their meat department, so that store is a no-go for raw. My grandma recommended a WinCo Foods which is closer to my house(!), which I never go to (and thus never thought of) that should have better prices.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

siulongluiy said:


> Maybe that is true, but the Fromm Grain Free line that he is on is tiny, even pea size and his teeth are spotless!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But a harder item, i.e. bone, is actually just a part of the diet. It's nothing supplementary. Sorry if I misunderstood! I thought you meant that with kibble you don't have to do any extra work, but with raw you have to do more lol. With raw you don't have to do any extra work (for the most part).

Also her dog is a small dog... my dog chews on Fromm GF kibble and takes just as long chewing on other types of larger kibbles. Really doesn't change much though. Still leaves residue 



BigLittle said:


> Checked out the Filipino market. They had some pretty interesting cuts and about as much fresh fish as the rest of the meat. The fish was the only thing with a good price in their meat department, so that store is a no-go for raw. My grandma recommended a WinCo Foods which is closer to my house(!), which I never go to (and thus never thought of) that should have better prices.


That sucks! Hopefully you have better luck at WinCo  I buy my meat from a local Asian grocery store. Maybe checking out some other local ethnic grocery stores will help too?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

siulongluiy said:


> Maybe that is true, but the Fromm Grain Free line that he is on is tiny, even pea size and his teeth are spotless!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But a harder item, i.e. bone, is actually just a part of the diet. It's nothing supplementary. Sorry if I misunderstood! I thought you meant that with kibble you don't have to do any extra work, but with raw you have to do more lol. With raw you don't have to do any extra work (for the most part).

Also her dog is a small dog... my dog chews on Fromm GF kibble and takes just as long chewing on other types of larger kibbles. Really doesn't change much though. Still leaves residue 



BigLittle said:


> Checked out the Filipino market. They had some pretty interesting cuts and about as much fresh fish as the rest of the meat. The fish was the only thing with a good price in their meat department, so that store is a no-go for raw. My grandma recommended a WinCo Foods which is closer to my house(!), which I never go to (and thus never thought of) that should have better prices.


That sucks! Hopefully you have better luck at WinCo  I buy my meat from a local Asian grocery store. Maybe checking out some other local ethnic grocery stores will help too?


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

$1.69 per lb of pork riblets and $1.79 per lb of boneless pork loin. 7 lbs of meat total in the freezer.

3 weeks from now and Mr Louie will be eating raw meat for half of his diet hopefully.

Maybe that's just what he needs to hit that tipping point where tartar will be removed faster than it can form.


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## jmillnysi (Aug 5, 2014)

I've never tried it for my dog, maybe i'll give it a try.


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