# One piece of advice you'd give someone starting in agility.



## CptJack

What it says on the subject, and just for fun.

Serious, not serious, multiple pieces of advice, whatever.


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## gingerkid

advice me before I'm too far gone to dog the regular way plz


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## trainingjunkie

Don't rush. Put lots of effort into your foundation. It might not be exciting, but your foundation is your future.

And always remember, every dog has only a certain number of jumps and weaves in their body. Take care of your dog. Protect his soundness. Train smarter, not longer.

Learn to love the rush of the course more than the outcome. The rush is the special something that will always stay with you. The ribbons will eventually end up in a landfill. The memories will be what linger.


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## elrohwen

Hmm. I would say focus on foundations, building drive, and building confidence, and don't be too quick to want to do all the obstacles.


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## Kyllobernese

When I started doing Agility with Remmy back in 2009, there was just a "fun agility" class. I never did much of a foundation with him but he was very smart and sailed through his Starters titles and all but his Snooker in Advanced titles. But gradually it caught up with me and due to my lack of handling skills, he started doing zoomies and doing his own thing. Took 2014 and most of 2015 off. Now I am starting back training "me". I would advise anybody starting out to go to Foundation classes and learn proper handling from the start. You may not think you are going to compete but Agility is very addictive and so much fun for dog and handler.


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## sassafras

It's almost always your fault, and almost always because you didn't communicate with clarity what you want your poor dog to do.

REWARD YOUR DOG


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## petpeeve

One of my all-time faves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfXGD4hP1Ro

And although it's probably aimed more at the seasoned competitor rather than newcomers, still, I think the message applies equally to all.


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## elrohwen

Find the best trainer you can. They don't have to be World Team members, but they should know what they're doing and build up the training in a thoughtful way. Don't think "I'm just doing this for fun, we don't need a serious instructor". It's way more fun to train with someone who knows what they're doing and does it well, even if you never compete.


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## sassafras

All that foundation stuff will really 1. be important 2. make sense 3. be really important when you start running longer sequences and courses.

It may seem like sorcery at first, but you WILL learn how to decide what the best cross, turn, etc are between obstacles. It will start to come naturally eventually but only if you put in the foundation work.


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## Zip

sassafras said:


> It's almost always your fault, and almost always because you didn't communicate with clarity what you want your poor dog to do.
> 
> REWARD YOUR DOG


YES! 

My advice would be to just make it as fun as possible, make it all about playing and running and having awesome time together. And always reward the dog if you mess up, forget the course etc., it's really not your dog's fault.

Also, this: 






(Yes, Silvia does agility on a highly competitive level, but I think her advice is great even for people not interested in competing at all)

Agility is just a super fun game, I'm pretty much addicted.


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## sydneynicole

When it comes down to it, agility is about having an incredible time - and bond - with your dog. No matter how far you go, just remember that.

You will get frustrated - but just take a deep breath, pet your dog and tell them how great they are and move on. If that day just isn't your day - ask for a few basic easy cues and just stop for that time. Come back to it later.

I'm still just in the beginning parts of agility with Oli - and I'm glad that I've had most of these suggestions pounded into my head already. Have fun! You're the dumb one, not the dog! It's just a game!


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## CptJack

Mine has got to be echoing Sass:

REWARD YOUR DOG. 

Mess up? Reward your dog.

Get lost? Reward your dog.

Stopping to talk to the trainer? Reward your dog.

Dog nail it? Reward your dog. 

Whatever, REWARD YOUR DOG.


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## sydneynicole

CptJack said:


> Mine has got to be echoing Sass:
> 
> REWARD YOUR DOG.
> 
> Mess up? Reward your dog.
> 
> Get lost? Reward your dog.
> 
> Stopping to talk to the trainer? Reward your dog.
> 
> Dog nail it? Reward your dog.
> 
> Whatever, REWARD YOUR DOG.


I think REWARD YOUR DOG applies to pretty much any training - but it's especially useful in agility when you're asking so much and it's so easy to be a noob handler and screw up all the things.


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## CptJack

sydneynicole said:


> I think REWARD YOUR DOG applies to pretty much any training - but it's especially useful in agility when you're asking so much and it's so easy to be a noob handler and screw up all the things.


It does apply to everything, but I've only recently realized how easy it is to demotivate your dog. Me stopping to talk to the trainer? Is demotivating/punishing for Kylie. Me getting lost on the course? Communicates frustration and 'something is wrong' to her. ME messing up and getting frustrated even with myself? Same. The dog doesn't realize that it's not all about them. Rewarding her doesn't make all that go away, but it DOES mitigate those factors somewhat so agility stays positive for her. 

So my default when I'm messing up? Is to stuff food in her face.

And, yeah, the fact that you're doing basically 20+ (and if you count crosses and contacts and 12 weave poles and all that stuff many, many more than there are obstacles on the field) chained behaviors at a once means all the reward history you can build is a good idea too. It really is asking a LOT.


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## trainingjunkie

petpeeve said:


> One of my all-time faves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfXGD4hP1Ro
> 
> And although it's probably aimed more at the seasoned competitor rather than newcomers, still, I think the message applies equally to all.


I never tire of this. Thanks for the reminder!


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> Find the best trainer you can. They don't have to be World Team members, but they should know what they're doing and build up the training in a thoughtful way. Don't think "I'm just doing this for fun, we don't need a serious instructor". It's way more fun to train with someone who knows what they're doing and does it well, even if you never compete.


Oh hey I do know a Canadian National team member.....

Can you clarify on the "Always rewarding" thing? How do you deal with rewards when the dog doesn't do something? For e.g., Ida occassionally refuses the tunnel (she'll go in, turn around and come back out and come to me, just not through the tunnel - it happens probably 1/8-10 attempts). My normal response is to praise her for coming to me, and then try again (i.e., hot dogs only at the end of a completed tunnel). Yes, no?

(Obviously we're very, very new, having only taken 2 not-serious beginner-level drop-in classes, but better to learn this stuff now than kick myself for it later, right?)


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> Can you clarify on the "Always rewarding" thing? How do you deal with rewards when the dog doesn't do something? For e.g., Ida occassionally refuses the tunnel (she'll go in, turn around and come back out and come to me, just not through the tunnel - it happens probably 1/8-10 attempts). My normal response is to praise her for coming to me, and then try again (i.e., hot dogs only at the end of a completed tunnel). Yes, no?


A lot of it depends on the dog and just how sensitive she is and how often it's happening. In this case and with an occasional pop out a 'good girl' for coming and then sending her through again to get a higher value reward is probably fine. If it was a more regular problem you'd want to look at what the issue was and maybe use a target or food at the other end to get her through. 

For me the big take away from it is that handler error happens and you should never, ever, ever, let that be a negative thing for your dog. YOU messed up. You don't take your dog's reward away for that. I know in theory it sounds easy but. It's not always know when you messed up, and it *is* easy to get caught up in listening to your instructor, your frustration with yourself, or wanting to start over and try again. Without rewarding your dog - the one that didn't actually do anything wrong - first. As you move on, more and more mistakes become YOU: where you pointed your feet, where you pointed your shoulders, pulling or pushing the dog too far or not far enough, being too early or too late with your timing, whatever. It is stuff that's REALLY easy to miss so when in doubt? Reward your dog. 

Never mind the fact that I, at least, have even gotten so high on doing something RIGHT that I immediately checked out on the dog - didn't just forgot to reward her but forgot to celebrate WITH her. Also I am prone to the instructor talking and me checking out on the dog to listen. I've started picking her up to hold her/pet her when that happens so I don't disconnect/she doesn't feel left in the aftermath of an exercise. A larger dog I might kneel down and continue to pet while listening - or ask for a down, and reward lavishly for it after the instructor was done and I released.

With early and fairly simple behaviors the dog can mess up and trying again isn't a big deal. heck, things that are even strictly obstacle performance you WANT clear criteria. How you handle mistakes there - like I said down to you and your dog. My answer with super soft Kylie is a cheerful "OOPS" and then running back to try again, asking for a simple behavior she has fun doing (spin), rewarding her with one little bit of food and then giving it another go with easier criteria (if new - if not, we just try again) and then jack potting when she gets it right. That dog does not handle being wrong, at all. 

My answer with MOLLY (because we still play at home) is a NOPE and taking her collar and bringing her back - because otherwise she'll just keep doing what she was doing before and she gives no craps about being wrong, it's just info. Whether the criteria drops is still dependent upon what the error was - too fast/sloppy on a known thing (she experiments to find lines) or a new behavior. 

and there is my relatively inexperienced (we've been trialing less than a year) answer.


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## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> I never tire of this. Thanks for the reminder!


Me either. The whole thing, but in particular: Just as failure will not define our future, neither will success create our sense of self-worth. 

That? That's become my whole mantra with agility - and LIFE, truthfully.


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## sassafras

^Yup, agreed. I've seen too many minor mistakes on a course lead to obvious visible frustration or anger from a handler that then translates into the dog becoming very shy of an obstacle. Like, if a handler always gets mad around the tunnel why should they ever even LOOK at or go near the tunnel? 

Also... One night at class, a big bullmastiff snarked at another dog very loudly outside the ring as Squash was approaching a tunnel that was set up right next to the ring gate. That is, he had to move TOWARDS the kerfuffle in order to approach the tunnel entrance. For the rest of the night he was very wary of that tunnel. Totally understandable, and yes in that situation I'm going to reward the crap out of him for even going anywhere near it even if he shies off of it or goes in and pops out. Because in his mind he could easily think that dog snarked at him for going near the tunnel and he's very, very conflict avoidant with other dogs.

It can be very, very hard to overcome becoming shy of an obstacle for any reason. I'd rather that the absolute bedrock of the whole game is "hey running around this stuff is fun no matter what happens" and fine tune things as I go along. The vast, vast majority of the time I am the one not communicating effectively and I'm not going to be a sourpuss to my dog over that.


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## gingerkid

Thanks so much for the clarifications!


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## scorpio948

As with any training, PATIENCE


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## dogsule

Yeah I am going back to treating more often. I am guilty of doing more treating at the end of a run vs while they are running. My trainers have said if I treat more I may get less of the stopping on things that have been becoming an issue. I have been treating all obstacles in class now. Hoping this helps here become more consistent. I know I should have been doing more treating all along but I hate to stop the flow of things so to speak.

There was one time in class when we had people posing as bar setters and Belle went to sniff one instead of going into a tunnel. I gave her a firm no but my trainer said not to do anything negative like that. Being that it wasn't directly involved in doing an obstacle I thought it should be ok and I wanted her to know that it wasn't ok to go sniff. Thoughts on that?? She did not do it again after that.


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## CptJack

In my opinion and my trainer backs this up (and Kylie is a lot like Belle) if you have a dog with confidence or motivation issues you do NOTHING negative in or around the ring or agility. Nothing. Withhold a treat if there's a specific obstacle performance criteria they are not meeting and happily try again (with lower criteria or not so they have success and get the praise/reward) but it should be nothing more extreme than that. If the dog goes off to sniff, you get them back by whatever happy, gentle, upbeat means and you treat them and fuss over them in a good way for being with you. 

The most extreme aversive my trainer has ever recommended is giving Kylie a cheerio or single treat for blowing weaves and jack potting the daylights out of her for successfully completing them. Mostly she just tells me to never correct for ANYTHING and reward for EVERYTHING that's even an attempt, even if it's wrong. It's worked. I went from a dog who wouldn't leave the startline and stopped before jumps and trudged around a course to a dog who loves it.

You HAVE to build reward history into both agility obstacles and being in the ring. Every time you 'no' or do anything aversive, even if it stops the behavior, you're taking some of those 'happy associations' out of the pot and making the dog less eager and confident to be there. You can work on precision and building behaviors and specific criteria a lot easier than you can repair damaged confidence or a dog who isn't really into it anymore.

Happy, Happy, Happy, Fun, Fun, Fun. 

There are some exceptions for very, very confident, resilient dogs - like taking them out of the ring if they blow you off, blow a start line, or break a contact, but those dogs are the ones who find AGILITY the reward in and of itself. From everything you've said everywhere, Belle is not one of those dogs.


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## Laurelin

I thought about this a lot. But really it just comes down to:

Have fun. Enjoy your dog.


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## sassafras

CptJack said:


> In my opinion and my trainer backs this up (and Kylie is a lot like Belle) if you have a dog with confidence or motivation issues you do NOTHING negative in or around the ring or agility.


I absolutely agree with this. Squash is not the most motivated dog in the world to play this game, but we had a seminar at my club once with Loretta Mueller who nicknamed him "Mr Affirmation." I had always thought he just wasn't very interested, too environmentally focused, etc but she proposed that he needs lots of positive feedback from me all the time to stay engaged. I've made a real effort to do so and it has made a huge difference. If he blows me or an obstacle off, I now do a really happy recall, praise him like crazy for it, and have a little back scratch/praise/treats session right there and we go on with the course. If I am frustrated by something I force myself to have a little party with him. And invariably he does better afterwards.

It seems counter-intuitive but for a dog who doesn't find the game inherently rewarding I think it's super important to keep it really fun all the time.


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> I absolutely agree with this. Squash is not the most motivated dog in the world to play this game, but we had a seminar at my club once with Loretta Mueller who nicknamed him "Mr Affirmation." I had always thought he just wasn't very interested, too environmentally focused, etc but she proposed that he needs lots of positive feedback from me all the time to stay engaged. I've made a real effort to do so and it has made a huge difference. If he blows me or an obstacle off, I now do a really happy recall, praise him like crazy for it, and have a little back scratch/praise/treats session right there and we go on with the course. If I am frustrated by something I force myself to have a little party with him. And invariably he does better afterwards.
> 
> It seems counter-intuitive but for a dog who doesn't find the game inherently rewarding I think it's super important to keep it really fun all the time.


Watson is the same! He really lights up when I'm genuinely pleased. It's easy for us to get in a negative cycle, because the more he blows me off, the more frustrated and unhappy I get. Obviously I'm not yelling at him or taking it out on him, but it's hard to act genuinely happy when inside your brain is like "stop running away and peeing on things, dog!" I need to stop and reset myself.


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## CptJack

The other thing that ties to this (and *is* very general dog training advice) is to stop before the dog wants to stop, and stop with a happy dog. Sure, if you've got a high drive/high work ethic dog that will go forever that's pretty easy to accomplish. It's also pretty easy to achieve for most people in general training sessions, overall. Agility? Seems harder, probably because they're paying for the time, and there's some perceived stress. Unfortunately, it's a place where a confident, happy, dog is required for good performance, too, so it's very easy to 'poison' the setting with pressure. 

As much as I've heard REWARD YOUR DOG, I've heard 'Her brain's frying. Send her over a jump, reward her and call it a day'. Or: "She did weaves once and they look good. Let's leave it there." Or "She's getting frustrated - take a play break." I've also learned that if I'm in the ring and she's not all there - stressing, upset, unhappy? TO HECK WITH THE Q. We'll run past most of the obstacles, do one thing she likes, and run out to party. If I can tell before we're in the ring, I'll scratch and we'll go take a nap or a walk.

If you have one of those dogs who isn't agilitying for the sake of agility, pressure really needs to stay off. It doesn't matter what Kylie does in agility, frankly, she never knows she's wrong. She *can't* know she's wrong, or all the fun falls out of the game for her and she's just a sad mess. Ironically (or not), making her having fun and being happy my top priority has improved the heck out of her speed AND her Q rate/precision. 

Stress is a killer and weirdly enough making avoiding it in her has changed the way I approach the game for the better, too.


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## sassafras

CptJack said:


> As much as I've heard REWARD YOUR DOG, I've heard 'Her brain's frying. Send her over a jump, reward her and call it a day'. Or: "She did weaves once and they look good. Let's leave it there." Or "She's getting frustrated - take a play break."


Our instructor says stuff like this a lot, too. Sometimes people get so invested in doing any particular obstacle perfectly and try over and over and over again and you can see the dogs deflating. Especially weaves for whatever reason. I've learned to just be happy if he hits the entrance and if he blows off the rest of the weaves I will usually let it go and take it to mean we need to practice weaves more at home.


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## CptJack

sassafras said:


> Our instructor says stuff like this a lot, too. Sometimes people get so invested in doing any particular obstacle perfectly and try over and over and over again and you can see the dogs deflating. Especially weaves for whatever reason. I've learned to just be happy if he hits the entrance and if he blows off the rest of the weaves I will usually let it go and take it to mean we need to practice weaves more at home.


I flat out broke the crap out of Kylie's weaves. One of her first trials (I think her second one?) I entered her in weavers and while she'd been doing well at home she missed something on the first of three sets and I got stuck in this MUST WEAVE ALL THE WEAVES loop (because trial and ring and the idea of just saying 'screw it' had not occurred to me through my own nerves) and sort of dragged her through the course. 

I had NO WEAVING AT ALL in the aftermath of that. None. She acted like she'd never seen a weave pole in her life for MONTHS because they were now this hugely stressy thing she wanted nothing to do with. 

I obviously felt like utter crap. 

We got it back now, but we got it back by starting from scratch, using higher value and more frequent rewards and never, ever, doing more than two sets of weaves (onside and offside) on any given day. No more. Ever. Usually not even every day. They now have fairly high reward history/value and we've got decent weaves back but I know danged well the second I drill or stress them or get really picky about criteria they're gone. 

(There were other factors making things weird until recently like not being able to keep muscle memory switching from based and stick in the ground poles and all but none of that has a thing to do with that first mess. That was pure ME.)


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## dogsule

CptJack said:


> In my opinion and my trainer backs this up (and Kylie is a lot like Belle) if you have a dog with confidence or motivation issues you do NOTHING negative in or around the ring or agility. Nothing. Withhold a treat if there's a specific obstacle performance criteria they are not meeting and happily try again (with lower criteria or not so they have success and get the praise/reward) but it should be nothing more extreme than that. If the dog goes off to sniff, you get them back by whatever happy, gentle, upbeat means and you treat them and fuss over them in a good way for being with you.
> 
> The most extreme aversive my trainer has ever recommended is giving Kylie a cheerio or single treat for blowing weaves and jack potting the daylights out of her for successfully completing them. Mostly she just tells me to never correct for ANYTHING and reward for EVERYTHING that's even an attempt, even if it's wrong. It's worked. I went from a dog who wouldn't leave the startline and stopped before jumps and trudged around a course to a dog who loves it.
> 
> You HAVE to build reward history into both agility obstacles and being in the ring. Every time you 'no' or do anything aversive, even if it stops the behavior, you're taking some of those 'happy associations' out of the pot and making the dog less eager and confident to be there. You can work on precision and building behaviors and specific criteria a lot easier than you can repair damaged confidence or a dog who isn't really into it anymore.
> 
> Happy, Happy, Happy, Fun, Fun, Fun.
> 
> There are some exceptions for very, very confident, resilient dogs - like taking them out of the ring if they blow you off, blow a start line, or break a contact, but those dogs are the ones who find AGILITY the reward in and of itself. From everything you've said everywhere, Belle is not one of those dogs.


That makes sense! Thanks!


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> the idea of just saying 'screw it' had not occurred to me through my own nerves) and sort of dragged her through the course.


This is one major reason that I'm not sure if I ever want to trial. At least with Watson. In the moment, with that much adrenaline, I don't trust myself to make the right decision and not screw things up more for him. Sure, before and after I'll think it through, but in the moment I just freeze and rational thought kind of goes out the window. I'll start with Hazel because she has enough drive to do agility that she isn't fussed if I make a mistake or she makes a mistake.

ETA: And yeah, weaves are hard. Watson has gone through periods where he did not want to work on weaves at all at home, but would do then at his lesson. It's very easy to over pressure and stress him out.


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## dogsule

sassafras said:


> I absolutely agree with this. Squash is not the most motivated dog in the world to play this game, but we had a seminar at my club once with Loretta Mueller who nicknamed him "Mr Affirmation." I had always thought he just wasn't very interested, too environmentally focused, etc but she proposed that he needs lots of positive feedback from me all the time to stay engaged. I've made a real effort to do so and it has made a huge difference. If he blows me or an obstacle off, I now do a really happy recall, praise him like crazy for it, and have a little back scratch/praise/treats session right there and we go on with the course. If I am frustrated by something I force myself to have a little party with him. And invariably he does better afterwards.
> 
> It seems counter-intuitive but for a dog who doesn't find the game inherently rewarding I think it's super important to keep it really fun all the time.


The biggest problem with Belle is at class, she LOVES it! She is happy tail waggy little thing who has a smile on her face all the time. It is at the trials where she pulls out her stopping on things and sniffing (just that once in class when I corrected her did she sniff lately). I think a lot of times it is her noise sensitivity that brings up issues and the stress of the trials which makes her act this way. The one class where she sniffed she started out distracted but there was an unknown border collie there that wouldn't shut up. I am guessing this threw her a bit. We did a little playing in the ring (sit down, turnaround type of stuff),something my one trainer has me do when she gets weirded out, and then she got back on track and did really well. There has never been anything negative at a trial however but I think she feeds off of my nerves and with all the extra noise she is just more reserved then normal. She gets lots of treats at the end of the runs whether we have Q'd or not.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> This is one major reason that I'm not sure if I ever want to trial. At least with Watson. In the moment, with that much adrenaline, I don't trust myself to make the right decision and not screw things up more for him. Sure, before and after I'll think it through, but in the moment I just freeze and rational thought kind of goes out the window.
> 
> ETA: And yeah, weaves are hard. Watson has gone through periods where he did not want to work on weaves at all at home, but would do then at his lesson. It's very easily to over pressure and stress him out.


I think Kylie's weaves are actually best when she sees them maybe twice a week - or even once a week - in context of a full course and they're not the focus of crap. She hits them, she runs them, we're done and they're beautiful. 

Getting comfortable enough to make up my own course or just leave the ring because my dog wasn't doing well was actually a really steep learning curve. I feel bad that Kylie paid the price for that but I'm glad I've figured it out, you know? I don't know that I could have gotten there without doing enough trials to be kind of 'Eh' about it. I mean I love trials but my own nerves are way down in general and that makes me more capable of THINKING in the ring a little bit, instead of just locking onto the course to such a degree that I can't do anything ELSE.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I think Kylie's weaves are actually best when she sees them maybe twice a week - or even once a week - in context of a full course and they're not the focus of crap. She hits them, she runs them, we're done and they're beautiful.
> 
> Getting comfortable enough to make up my own course or just leave the ring because my dog wasn't doing well was actually a really steep learning curve. I feel bad that Kylie paid the price for that but I'm glad I've figured it out, you know? I don't know that I could have gotten there without doing enough trials to be kind of 'Eh' about it. I mean I love trials but my own nerves are way down in general and that makes me more capable of THINKING in the ring a little bit, instead of just locking onto the course to such a degree that I can't do anything ELSE.


Yes, getting out there and doing it helps so much. 

When we trialed in Rally, Watson was sad and nervous and sniffy. I know it's not totally the noise or the chaos, because he goes to conformation shows all the time and struts into the ring with a smile on his face, totally comfortable. That's because I'm comfortable in the conformation ring because I've done it enough and I know the drill (he also knows the drill, which helps). I'm not freaking-out-deer-in-the-headlights, I can actually think most of the time (though not all the time!) I can also bring as much food as I want into the ring. For agility, I think we would need to find a venue that allows food/toy fun runs to start. 

Or really, I'll just do it with Hazel first. She's so much more straightforward and not stressy.


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## CptJack

dogsule said:


> The biggest problem with Belle is at class, she LOVES it! She is happy tail waggy little thing who has a smile on her face all the time. It is at the trials where she pulls out her stopping on things and sniffing (just that once in class when I corrected her did she sniff lately). I think a lot of times it is her noise sensitivity that brings up issues and the stress of the trials which makes her act this way. The one class where she sniffed she started out distracted but there was an unknown border collie there that wouldn't shut up. I am guessing this threw her a bit. We did a little playing in the ring (sit down, turnaround type of stuff),something my one trainer has me do when she gets weirded out, and then she got back on track and did really well. There has never been anything negative at a trial however but I think she feeds off of my nerves and with all the extra noise she is just more reserved then normal. She gets lots of treats at the end of the runs whether we have Q'd or not.


See what your instructor has to say about it? 

You may just need to throw some Qs under the bus/risk getting whistled out. Stop and reassure her, even with physical contact, make up a course to get her out to the party sooner so there's less stress, let things slide you wouldn't normally - whatever. But that's just my brain, and off the top of my head. Someone who knows you, Belle, and your venue would probably be the best person to look to.

(And also someone with actual experience!)


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Yes, getting out there and doing it helps so much.
> 
> When we trialed in Rally, Watson was sad and nervous and sniffy. I know it's not totally the noise or the chaos, because he goes to conformation shows all the time and struts into the ring with a smile on his face, totally comfortable. That's because I'm comfortable in the conformation ring because I've done it enough and I know the drill (he also knows the drill, which helps). I'm not freaking-out-deer-in-the-headlights, I can actually think most of the time (though not all the time!) I can also bring as much food as I want into the ring. For agility, I think we would need to find a venue that allows food/toy fun runs to start.
> 
> Or really, I'll just do it with Hazel first. She's so much more straightforward and not stressy.


Yeah, my thing with agility was never 'what is my dog going to do' but it's all been about figuring out what's expected of me, what the rules are, what the lines are, where to be and when, and how things work and what's happening. Once I managed to have that I was in much better shape and so was Kylie. 

Hazel first is probably a good idea. You can be nervous while she isn't and then you can be calm and steady for Watson. NADAC has a transition that I like, in that their fun runs all have food/toys as options, and then there's intro which has no weaves and is usually a short, easy course (you can title but it's designed to get the dogs in the ring without stress), and you can always have the food/toy in your POCKET while you run. It just seems to make the transition from training with treats and rewards readily available to harder courses and more stress without having them easier on the dog.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> NADAC has a transition that I like, in that their fun runs all have food/toys as options, and then there's intro which has no weaves and is usually a short, easy course (you can title but it's designed to get the dogs in the ring without stress), and you can always have the food/toy in your POCKET while you run. It just seems to make the transition from training with treats and rewards readily available to harder courses and more stress without having them easier on the dog.


That sounds awesome. It's definitely something I'll have to look into when we're at that point. Even just finding some sort of match trial, or really small trial. I need to mimic some of the stress and chaos, but I also need to take away the stress of Qing and completely removing rewards.


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## dogsule

CptJack said:


> See what your instructor has to say about it?
> 
> You may just need to throw some Qs under the bus/risk getting whistled out. Stop and reassure her, even with physical contact, make up a course to get her out to the party sooner so there's less stress, let things slide you wouldn't normally - whatever. But that's just my brain, and off the top of my head. Someone who knows you, Belle, and your venue would probably be the best person to look to.
> 
> (And also someone with actual experience!)


Yeah both my trainers have said to be more loud and excited sounding with my praise but that just isn't me. I am a quiet person with a quiet voice. I tell her good girl a lot but I know I don't sound overly excited. She also gets tons of praise at the end. One of my trainers (I LOVE her) thinks I get stressed out because I think Belle will get stressed out which makes her stressed out. LOL! I must admit too, that I do stress that Belle will stress over something. I try to avoid anything stressful for her if possible or treat things that stress her. I want her to be happy and I don't like to see the look in her eye or her ears lower when she hears a sound that unsettles her. I probably do make things worse.

Odd thing is with my other trainer, her dog could be quite good however he is so all over the place and doesn't always listen well. When he does listen he is awesome but that doesn't happen real often. She does yell at him, tells him he is a bad dog or that was naughty and grabs him sort of harshly (during class, not at trials). He thankfully is not a soft dog and pretty much ignores all that but I would never ever do something like that.


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## elrohwen

dogsule said:


> Yeah both my trainers have said to be more loud and excited sounding with my praise but that just isn't me. I am a quiet person with a quiet voice. I tell her good girl a lot but I know I don't sound overly excited.


That can be good advice, but it doesn't necessarily work with every dog and for many it's way too much pressure. If a dog is shutting down and under too much pressure already, getting louder and more boisterous puts even *more* pressure on them. The FDSA class I'm in now had a really good lecture on pressure relief in agility, and some other classes there have emphasized meeting your dog's energy level and bumping it up a bit.

So on a scale of 1-10, if Belle is at a 4, then you want to come in at a 5. If you start jumping around and yelling and clapping at a level 8, she's going to be totally overwhelmed and want to get away from you and the pressure you're putting on her. But if you start at a 5, she'll bring up her energy to match your 5, and then you can go up to a 6, etc. Does that make any sense? Not sure if I explained that well. It would probably help if you praised more and were genuine and happy about it, but you don't have to be loud and jumping around like a cheerleader to be effective.


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## CptJack

A lot of that stuff is *really* dog dependent. I've never seen my instructor yell at any of her dogs, but. 

She has 2 trialing now (and a 3rd up and coming that should start this summer). 

Dog one is a BC-X bitch who has some serious fear issues, doesn't have a lot of drive for agility, and is shut down easily by things like noise, people and dogs. Instructor never meant to trial with the dog, but the dog enjoyed training so they eventually got there. Dog still doesn't have a ton of confidence and while better is still pretty fearful. She's also all around soft and sensitive and tries to be careful. 

Dog 2 is an ACD X that is hard as nails and loves agility - could do it all day without taking a break. Best thing in his world, he's afraid of nothing and no one. 

Running dog 1? nothing's wrong, ever. Doesn't matter if the dog broke a startline (though she rarely uses them with that dog), hopped a contact, went off course, whatever, they carry on and dog is rewarded heavily at the end.

Dog two? Blows a contact, breaks the startline the dog gets taken out of the ring, immediately. 

Different dogs, different handling. 

However, I will say that NADAC would yank ANYONE yelling at their dog out of the ring in a harsh way (as opposed to an attention getting one that's just volume) in a heartbeat.


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## dogsule

CptJack said:


> You may just need to throw some Qs under the bus/risk getting whistled out. Stop and reassure her, even with physical contact,


Oh, wanted to add, at the next trial (March 11,12) they have FAST first and then T2B, neither of those do I really care about Qing in and in FAST the judges encourage training in the ring if you don't get your send. I entered just for more ring time with Belle. I am hoping to get the nerves out in these so that in JWW and Std I have a more focused pup! We will see how that turns out.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> That can be good advice, but it doesn't necessarily work with every dog and for many it's way too much pressure. If a dog is shutting down and under too much pressure already, getting louder and more boisterous puts even *more* pressure on them. The FDSA class I'm in now had a really good lecture on pressure relief in agility, and some other classes there have emphasized meeting your dog's energy level and bumping it up a bit.
> 
> So on a scale of 1-10, if Belle is at a 4, then you want to come in at a 5. If you start jumping around and yelling and clapping at a level 8, she's going to be totally overwhelmed and want to get away from you and the pressure you're putting on her. But if you start at a 5, she'll bring up her energy to match your 5, and then you can go up to a 6, etc. Does that make any sense? Not sure if I explained that well. It would probably help if you praised more and were genuine and happy about it, but you don't have to be loud and jumping around like a cheerleader to be effective.


Also that. Kylie likes being talked to in happy tones, likes her food, likes cuddles and scritches and some energetic movement/personal play (wrestling with my hands) but if I got really loud and bouncy, she would LEAVE ME.


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## dogsule

elrohwen said:


> That can be good advice, but it doesn't necessarily work with every dog and for many it's way too much pressure. If a dog is shutting down and under too much pressure already, getting louder and more boisterous puts even *more* pressure on them. The FDSA class I'm in now had a really good lecture on pressure relief in agility, and some other classes there have emphasized meeting your dog's energy level and bumping it up a bit.
> 
> So on a scale of 1-10, if Belle is at a 4, then you want to come in at a 5. If you start jumping around and yelling and clapping at a level 8, she's going to be totally overwhelmed and want to get away from you and the pressure you're putting on her. But if you start at a 5, she'll bring up her energy to match your 5, and then you can go up to a 6, etc. Does that make any sense? Not sure if I explained that well. It would probably help if you praised more and were genuine and happy about it, but you don't have to be loud and jumping around like a cheerleader to be effective.


Yes that makes sense. I think I am a little louder (bad word but not sure what else to use) than I used to be.


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## elrohwen

dogsule said:


> Yes that makes sense. I think I am a little louder (bad word but not sure what else to use) than I used to be.


Just try to think about matching her energy and gradually bringing it up. If she's being stressy and low energy, talk to her quietly, scritch her butt, get down on her level and do some cuddles. Don't try to cheerlead her into being more up and happy. 

With a crazy dog who is already up, then sure, go nuts (though you might even want to match their energy slightly down a notch, to lower their arousal level). Like when Hazel gets super crazy, if I come in yelling and clapping she's going to go up another level, and another, and then I've lost her and she's just zooming and flying around. Haha. And if Watson was being slow and stressy and I came in clapping and yelling, he would take one look at me and go sniff something or pee on an obstacle - way too much pressure for him at that moment. When he's a bit more up and happy, then we do the clapping and jumping and loud cheering.

ETA: I think some of the FDSA classes would be really good for you guys! A lot of the instructors there are awesome at working with dogs who are stressy, or lower drive, or environmental, or whatever. The dogs that some in person trainers often don't really know what to do with. I've learned so much that has helped Watson and I be a better team.


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## CptJack

This loosely ties into the hardest parts of trials for me still. 

Kylie has X amount of stamina - mostly mental stamina. If I get her out too early before a run, she is flat. However, if I don't get her out early ENOUGH she is wild and taking extra obstacles. 

I am going to try instructor's advice next trial and take her out early for the first run and right before we need to be on the line for the second and hope she doesn't stop to pee.

It's weird that this is an issue but there are two totally different dogs that show up, based on how good my timing with getting to the startline is.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> This loosely ties into the hardest parts of trials for me still.
> 
> Kylie has X amount of stamina - mostly mental stamina. If I get her out too early before a run, she is flat. However, if I don't get her out early ENOUGH she is wild and taking extra obstacles.
> 
> I am going to try instructor's advice next trial and take her out early for the first run and right before we need to be on the line for the second and hope she doesn't stop to pee.


Ack, this killed us in Rally. It had such a hard time figuring out when to get there, how long ahead, etc especially for the show where I was doing confo in a different building and was trying to run back and forth to see where they were at. So hard for me to figure out how much to warm him up without totally melting his brain.


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## dogsule

elrohwen said:


> Just try to think about matching her energy and gradually bringing it up. If she's being stressy and low energy, talk to her quietly, scritch her butt, get down on her level and do some cuddles. Don't try to cheerlead her into being more up and happy.
> 
> 
> ETA: I think some of the FDSA classes would be really good for you guys! A lot of the instructors there are awesome at working with dogs who are stressy, or lower drive, or environmental, or whatever. The dogs that some in person trainers often don't really know what to do with. I've learned so much that has helped Watson and I be a better team.


Ok, that makes sense. I know this last trial I was trying to get her revved up a bit, probably the wrong thing to do. 

I don't even know what FDSA classes are. Pretty much the ones I go to are the ones available around here. We have one class in our town and then the other class in a town an hour from here.


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## elrohwen

dogsule said:


> Ok, that makes sense. I know this last trial I was trying to get her revved up a bit, probably the wrong thing to do.
> 
> I don't even know what FDSA classes are. Pretty much the ones I go to are the ones available around here. We have one class in our town and then the other class in a town an hour from here.


Sorry! I shouldn't have assumed you knew what my acronym meant  Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. They're online classes in a variety of sports with a bunch of different instructors. All +R training. All of the trainers are very experienced and some are very good at dealing with stressy and lower drive dogs. Denise Fenzi especially. I think her "Engagement" or "Bridging the Gap" classes would be great for you and Belle. I've done two of Julie Daniel's classes and they've also been good for Watson (we're doing Empowerment right now). 

http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/

The schedule: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/schedule-and-syllabus


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## sassafras

dogsule said:


> The biggest problem with Belle is at class, she LOVES it! She is happy tail waggy little thing who has a smile on her face all the time. It is at the trials where she pulls out her stopping on things and sniffing (just that once in class when I corrected her did she sniff lately). I think a lot of times it is her noise sensitivity that brings up issues and the stress of the trials which makes her act this way. The one class where she sniffed she started out distracted but there was an unknown border collie there that wouldn't shut up. I am guessing this threw her a bit. We did a little playing in the ring (sit down, turnaround type of stuff),something my one trainer has me do when she gets weirded out, and then she got back on track and did really well. There has never been anything negative at a trial however but I think she feeds off of my nerves and with all the extra noise she is just more reserved then normal. She gets lots of treats at the end of the runs whether we have Q'd or not.





CptJack said:


> See what your instructor has to say about it?
> 
> You may just need to throw some Qs under the bus/risk getting whistled out. Stop and reassure her, even with physical contact, make up a course to get her out to the party sooner so there's less stress, let things slide you wouldn't normally - whatever. But that's just my brain, and off the top of my head. Someone who knows you, Belle, and your venue would probably be the best person to look to.
> 
> (And also someone with actual experience!)


Agreed, you may need to just build a few positive trial experiences and accept that you're going to eat those entry fees. But your instructor knows you two better than we do.


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## Kyllobernese

Well, I will find out this weekend if all the training we have done this winter will pay off. Learned lots of handling and finally have Remmy weaving when I am on the left side of the poles (something I never thought he would do). Have been practicing on Wednesdays and Saturdays, then this month my sister and I have been doing a short session on Mondays. Entered Steeplechase for the first time as it is usually a flowing course without a bunch of fancy threadles or serpentines. He is also in Masters Jumpers and Standard for the first time. As they will all be tough classes I am just going to go and have fun and try and keep his attention on me and not doing zoomies which he had started doing due to my lack of handling. He has had almost two years off of trialing.


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## gingerkid

You guys and my IRL dog friends are making me so excited to start doing it *fer reals*. We have one more drop in class this weekend and then regular classes start the weekend after that.

Without having equipment at home, what kinds of drills/things can be done at home? I'm starting to attempt to work on contacts, albeit out of context by getting Ida to walk across a board (2.5' by about 1') on the ground and stop with back feet on front feet off (the plan is to turn it into a little ramp with another board once she's got the idea). Even if its not helpful for agility, it's something for us to work on. But what kinds of other things can we do?


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> You guys and my IRL dog friends are making me so excited to start doing it *fer reals*. We have one more drop in class this weekend and then regular classes start the weekend after that.
> 
> Without having equipment at home, what kinds of drills/things can be done at home? I'm starting to attempt to work on contacts, albeit out of context by getting Ida to walk across a board (2.5' by about 1') on the ground and stop with back feet on front feet off (the plan is to turn it into a little ramp with another board once she's got the idea). Even if its not helpful for agility, it's something for us to work on. But what kinds of other things can we do?


work on sending her to a target on the ground (like a cottage cheese lid), and around a bucket from both directions. Have her recall on both sides of you (like from behind, to your left or right hand with your hand out). Maybe teach a separate front foot target if you haven't. Watch me, I'm sure you have. All of that should be safe regardless of how your teacher teaches things.


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## dogsule

elrohwen said:


> Sorry! I shouldn't have assumed you knew what my acronym meant  Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. They're online classes in a variety of sports with a bunch of different instructors. All +R training. All of the trainers are very experienced and some are very good at dealing with stressy and lower drive dogs. Denise Fenzi especially. I think her "Engagement" or "Bridging the Gap" classes would be great for you and Belle. I've done two of Julie Daniel's classes and they've also been good for Watson (we're doing Empowerment right now).
> 
> http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/
> 
> The schedule: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/schedule-and-syllabus


Oh thanks. Will check them out.


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## gingerkid

CptJack said:


> work on sending her to a target on the ground (like a cottage cheese lid), and around a bucket from both directions. Have her recall on both sides of you (like from behind, to your left or right hand with your hand out). Maybe teach a separate front foot target if you haven't. Watch me, I'm sure you have. All of that should be safe regardless of how your teacher teaches things.


Awesome, thanks!


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## crysania

1. Breathe.
2. Have fun.
3. Remember that you're a team and that this is just a fun time out for the dog.
4. Don't worry about the Q's.
5. Don't let anyone else steal your joy.
6. Treat every class and every trial as if it could be your last.

The last one I learned well. My dog's last agility class was not one I expected it to be her last. She had been doing awesome and then was struck with vestibular disease. While she's doing great and is only a little bit wobbly, I wouldn't take her back to agility as she could get hurt. So her last class was one that was amazing and I wish I had video taped it because she was brilliant and it was amazing and we had a huge celebration after her runs. 

Oh...brings me to one more.

7. Videotape as much as you can. I never did much. I hate seeing myself and so I avoided it. Now, knowing it's all over? I wish I had more videos of her in class and at trials.

(Ok so that was way more than just one, but they're things I can think of off the top of my head!)


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