# Questions about meeting the breeder protocol (long rant)



## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

Hello, everyone.

Last time I was here (roughly a year ago) I had just decided not to take a BYB Golden Retriever. Me and my husband were really tempted and a little bit pressured, but we decided to do things the right way. We discussed many things, not to mention the breed of dog and arrived to the conclusion we wanted a local (Dutch) breed that was small enough for our apartment and friendly enough for our taste. 

So I signed up for a Markiesje (last year), which we both felt was the perfect breed for us. Now for what I understand (with my limited Dutch) the association asks for Markiesje owners to be at least open to the idea of breeding your dog once (provided they pass the general breed health check-up). To be entirely honest, I would rather not breed a dog myself. I'd do it if legally required, but not out of an innate desire to do so.

Anyways, I received a call and I've been put in contact with a breeder that has a puppy for me. This is the first time I actually go to a breeder for any dog I've owned. My previous dogs all came from either someone else or were just a decision made by someone else in my household (though for some reason I always ended up being the main caretaker). So I'm supposed to meet the breeder this Sunday and I am not quite sure what the proper protocol is...

I mean, 
1)should I bring something for mama dog? 
2) Should I bring some kind of courtesy visitor's present (like, you know, when you visit someone and you bring a bottle of wine)?

I have somewhat put together a list of questions I want to ask, though for it to be a breeder recognized by the association, it must mean the parents have passed the medical examinations. And also, 

3) How should I ease her mind that their pup is going to a good home? 
4) Is it just me who finds the whole breeding thing an awkward topic? 
5) Should I confess that I have no intention of breeding the pup unless it was absolutely necessary (E.g. legally required)?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Cailin said:


> Hello, everyone.
> 
> Last time I was here (roughly a year ago) I had just decided not to take a BYB Golden Retriever. Me and my husband were really tempted and a little bit pressured, but we decided to do things the right way. We discussed many things, not to mention the breed of dog and arrived to the conclusion we wanted a local (Dutch) breed that was small enough for our apartment and friendly enough for our taste.
> 
> So I signed up for a Markiesje (last year), which we both felt was the perfect breed for us. Now for what I understand (with my limited Dutch) the association asks for Markiesje owners to be at least open to the idea of breeding your dog once (provided they pass the general breed health check-up). To be entirely honest, I would rather not breed a dog myself. I'd do it if legally required, but not out of an innate desire to do so.


I just googled them - adorable little dogs and their temperament sounds so sweet! It sounds as though there are limited numbers, which explains why breeding is seen as a priority to the breed clubs. Understandable, but like you, not something I'd eagerly sign-up for.



Cailin said:


> Anyways, I received a call and I've been put in contact with a breeder that has a puppy for me. This is the first time I actually go to a breeder for any dog I've owned. My previous dogs all came from either someone else or were just a decision made by someone else in my household (though for some reason I always ended up being the main caretaker). So I'm supposed to meet the breeder this Sunday and I am not quite sure what the proper protocol is...
> 
> I mean,
> 1) should I bring something for mama dog?
> 2) Should I bring some kind of courtesy visitor's present (like, you know, when you visit someone and you bring a bottle of wine)?


When I visited a breeder for information two summers ago, I took them some chocolates and they seemed to appreciate the gesture. I'm sure a gift isn't expected, but it is thoughtful. I like the idea of taking something (maybe a toy or "gourmet" treat ) for the dog(s) in addition to or instead of for the breeder. If you get something for the dog, you don't have to worry about it not being appropriate (e.g., do they drink wine? eat chocolate? like plants?).



Cailin said:


> I have somewhat put together a list of questions I want to ask, though for it to be a breeder recognized by the association, it must mean the parents have passed the medical examinations. And also,
> 
> 3) How should I ease her mind that their pup is going to a good home?


Talk about what you plan to do with the puppy (e.g., camping & hiking, agility, advanced obedience), describe your plan for caring for him while s/he's still young (e.g., if you work, how will you ensure safety and accomplish house training), describe why you're interested in the breed and the research you've done so far.

I should have asked more questions about the health (not all health issues can be tested for), longevity, and temperament of the dogs in Katie's background. I found out more later through conversations with the breeder (nothing bad, just interesting information), but it is good information if you are still deciding among breeders or puppies.



Cailin said:


> 4) Is it just me who finds the whole breeding thing an awkward topic?
> 5) Should I confess that I have no intention of breeding the pup unless it was absolutely necessary (E.g. legally required)?


Yeah, that is awkward. I'd ask about it and be honest. You and the breeder might find some sort of agreement. Are you sure you'd be the one doing the breeding and whelping yourself? Or would be it a situation where a dog is sent out to stud or a bitch goes back to live with the breeder for that part?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

good post from Cookieface ,, just wanted to add on the breeding thing, am always upfront that breeding is not my desire in getting a dog, I love working with them and can do testing.. Always open minded if a pup grows out to be of value to a breeder then I will work with them to make arrangements for the dog/bitch to be available to them. Never been necessary but I would keep my promise.


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## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

@cookieface: thank you for the advice. I think I'll do just that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Markiesje are really neat dogs! I've looked into them but unfortunately they're so rare they don't even export them outside the Netherlands. When you're dealing with a rare breed, I think being open to possibly keeping a dog intact for the breeder is pretty common. They just often can't afford to spay and neuter good dogs because the numbers to keep the breed going are just not there. If the dog needs to be bred to preserve the breed, the breeder would be the one dealing with any breeding issues. You wouldn't be breeding the dog and having to deal with the hassle at all.


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## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

@PatriciafromCO: Yes. I will keep my end of the bargain and keep the dog intact. Dogs in heat can be a bother in my experience, but it's nothing I haven't survived before.

@Laurelin: That's a piece of good news. It sounds very logical.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Markiesje are really neat dogs! I've looked into them but unfortunately they're so rare they don't even export them outside the Netherlands. When you're dealing with a rare breed, I think being open to possibly keeping a dog intact for the breeder is pretty common. They just often can't afford to spay and neuter good dogs because the numbers to keep the breed going are just not there. If the dog needs to be bred to preserve the breed, *the breeder would be the one dealing with any breeding issues. You wouldn't be breeding the dog and having to deal with the hassle at all.*


I highly suspect this would be the case; I can't imagine a responsible breeder putting all the responsibility on the owner - especially one inexperienced in breeding. The worst part for you would be being away from your dog for a few weeks; you would not have to deal with the breeding and whelping aspect unless you wanted to be involved and the breeder were willing to allow your participation.


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## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

@cookieface: I suppose you two are right. That makes me feel very relieved. So now I'll just wait for Sunday when I meet the breeder. If everything goes alright, I'll get the pet insurance and the registry going. If not, well that just means we'll have to look around a bit longer.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The others have good advice. I didn't bring a gift for human or dog when I visited breeders, and one was not expected. Though I think it would be nice to bring a little something for momma dog maybe.

About the breeding thing, just mention it to the breeder and ask what usually happens. I would assume that they would take on the responsibility of doing the breeding and the whelping of the dog. They would not want that to fall on someone inexperienced. I have a dog of a pretty rare breed, and I know his breeder is hoping to breed to him some day. It's up to me to show him and do the health testing, but if she or someone else decides to breed to him, they will be responsible for the details (and of course I'd have to approve).

Just be yourself and tell them what you are looking for in a dog and what you can offer. Most breeders want to be sure that you have the right lifestyle for a dog, and are willing to put in the effort to train and exercise the dog appropriately.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The dog you get may not even be breeding quality, anyway. I wouldn't worry about it until you talk to the breeder and find out what's happening.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I've never heard of that breed, but after looking them up. Wow, they are gorgeous! I can't wait to see pictures of the new addition! I've never heard of a breeding requirement like that, but it definitely makes sense. Looking forward to hearing more about this!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> The others have good advice. I didn't bring a gift for human or dog when I visited breeders, and one was not expected. Though I think it would be nice to bring a little something for momma dog maybe.


I don't think a gift was expected, but since I met with breeders with no intention of ever buying one of their dogs, I wanted to do something as a "thank you" gesture. I also followed up with a handwritten note.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

If I were in that situation (owning a rare breed that might need to be bred to sustain the breed), I might opt for a male over a female since then you most likely would only have to deal with health testing and making him available for stud as necessary. To me, that would be a lot less involved than owning a female that would go into heat regularly and you'd have to watch over during heat as well as possibly end up whelping puppies.

I think I'd be happy to keep a male dog intact for a breeder, so long as I was confident I could keep him under control around females in heat.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I would definitely go for a male in that type of situation, too. With the female, you'd probably have to give her back to the breeder for several months while she had her puppies and weaned them. With the male, it would be a few days at most.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I've come across a similar situation with the breed I'm looking into. My question is, if you're -not- interested in keeping your dog intact, what's the best way to get your point across without ruining your puppy chances?

I feel like I have legitimate reasons for wanting to speuter in our circumstances, but I'm concerned that they might try and convince me otherwise, or pressure me into it. 

Basically, since I've never owned a dog myself before (just a family dog as a kid), I want to make sure I can properly manage a dog before thinking about the extra commitment of an intact dog. I know I know, lots of people say it's easy and not that much extra work, but I'm the kind of person that needs to have some experience *myself* to know what *I* can handle.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

trying to convince you is one thing, you making the decision to go against what you want is up to you. I've looked at pups that I did not agree with the breeders (terms) it's the breeders dogs/pups its their right to operate how they want to.. I never lose my right to walk away and not get a pup from them. As someone has already mentioned more often a pup doesn't grow out to be breed-able, not because of any flaws or defects, but because there is still other dogs that are better choices


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I've come across a similar situation with the breed I'm looking into. My question is, if you're -not- interested in keeping your dog intact, what's the best way to get your point across without ruining your puppy chances?
> 
> I feel like I have legitimate reasons for wanting to speuter in our circumstances, but I'm concerned that they might try and convince me otherwise, or pressure me into it.
> 
> Basically, since I've never owned a dog myself before (just a family dog as a kid), I want to make sure I can properly manage a dog before thinking about the extra commitment of an intact dog. I know I know, lots of people say it's easy and not that much extra work, but I'm the kind of person that needs to have some experience *myself* to know what *I* can handle.


I would like to think a truly reputable breeder wouldn't try to pressure you into something you're not comfortable with. I know of a few breeders who have placed show or performance prospects in "just pet" home because it was in the best interest of the dog. Sure they were disappointed, but their primary consideration was for the puppy's well-being.

I'd still go with being honest about what you know you can handle. The breeder might come up with a creative solution or be able to identify a dog who truly isn't breeding potential at a young age. If you're willing to get an older pup, it might be easier find a non-breeding quality dog who could be altered right away from one of the breeders. Or, the breeder may be completely willing to place a dog in your care and not worry about breeding at all. Like Patricia said, you never lose your right to walk away (although I know it can be hard).

Like you, I have no desire to have an intact dog at this point. Katie's breeder kept urging me to wait to spay her for health reasons, but I spent a few months terrified she'd have her first season earlier than predicted.

If you don't mind sharing, what breed are you interested in?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

cookieface said:


> I would like to think a truly reputable breeder wouldn't try to pressure you into something you're not comfortable with. I know of a few breeders who have placed show or performance prospects in "just pet" home because it was in the best interest of the dog. Sure they were disappointed, but their primary consideration was for the puppy's well-being.
> 
> I'd still go with being honest about what you know you can handle. The breeder might come up with a creative solution or be able to identify a dog who truly isn't breeding potential at a young age. If you're willing to get an older pup, it might be easier find a non-breeding quality dog who could be altered right away from one of the breeders. Or, the breeder may be completely willing to place a dog in your care and not worry about breeding at all. Like Patricia said, you never lose your right to walk away (although I know it can be hard).
> 
> ...


Thanks, that actually made me feel a lot better. I think it feels different when you're looking at a rare breed because if you walk away from one breeder... well, your options of getting a puppy just got limited even more than they were already.

I'm looking into a Stabyhoun. The breed association is known to be great and easy to deal with, so I'm sure it's mostly my own insecurities about everything that could go wrong that are making me nervous, rather than any real possible circumstances.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think most breeders are going to be realistic about it. They will generally try to place dogs who are possibly breeding quality with people they think will be wiling to consider breeding.

I ended up with a show quality male pup of a rare breed, when I went into it looking for a pet quality dog. My breeder understands that I'm not a show person and has just asked me to try it and see how we do. If he turns out well, she will probably want to breed to him, but it's ultimately my decision. This type of stuff should be laid out in the contract which you should be able to see before the puppies are even born. I will say that I feel much more responsibility to show him and possibly breed him because he's of a rare breed. If I bought a golden retriever and the breeder said he was show quality, I probably wouldn't be particularly committed to showing, knowing that there is a huge population of goldens. But since I love my breed and want to help preserve them, I do feel responsible to do what I can with the nice dog I've been given. It's not a burden, necessarily, but I guess it is something to consider. I won't have to deal with the breeding or whelp any puppies if he's bred, so I don't think that's a huge inconvenience if you own a male. Definitely more so for a female.

And FWIW, I don't find it at all inconvenient to have an intact male. I have friends with neutered males who marked and humped everything, so it's no guarantee of a well behaved pet. I don't let Watson wander on my property so I don't think he's going to run off and impregnate another dog. Plus the majority of people here do speuter their pets which lowers my risk. Maybe having a female who goes into heat twice a year would be more inconvenient, but having an intact male is really no big deal and not any different from having a neutered one, IME.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

With rare breeds, in my experience (which is not that much, I am considering getting a rarer breed this go around), you have to be a little more flexible than you would if you were getting like... a lab or a golden. If you have a dozen or less breeders to go to then there's just not as much choice and room to draw arbitrary lines. 

Being more flexible could mean waiting a longer time, getting an older dog, getting a dog that is not the 'look' you wanted, a breeder that doesn't check every single box, etc. Only you know what is an absolute deal breaker for YOU personally. For me, keeping a dog intact is nothing at all, especially a male. With males, it's not really any additional worry at all. But other things would be a deal breaker for sure. Ex: I want a sports dog so I'd be more than willing to wait longer for a dog with good drive. If it is a deal breaker to you though to keep the dog intact, the breeder needs to know it. 

I would caution against making too many 'deal breakers'. If you were getting a more common breed then by all means, be picky. Ask for all health testing, working titles, show titles, ask for specific genders and colors and coat types, and breeders that feed specific foods and have specific contracts. But you could easily make it impossible to get a pup of your chosen breed if your options are only a couple breeders. 

The breed I'm looking into has 2 coat types. Most people want the smooth dogs but the problem is they comprise around 10% of the breed and most breeders over here do not even have them. And pups can change coat types- even good breeders have a hard time telling the difference between some smooth dogs and some that are rough-haired. I've met people that have 'smooth' pups that grow beards. So essentially by saying 'i only want a smooth dog' you'd be cutting yourself down by more than half of the breeders (I only know of 3 in the country that sometimes have smooths), you'd cut out 90% of the breed, there is a chance your dog would still grow a beard anyways, etc. I went into it (like most people do getting into the breed), thinking i only wanted a smooth. It's not realistic. One of my favorite breeders otherwise doesn't even have them. My other favorite breeder does have them sometimes but places based on temperament. If that had been a deal breaker then I should probably stop looking at that particular breed. So just some food for thought...


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## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

Thank you everyone for your replies.

Well, as it turns out, we can only choose a female, since all the male puppies are taken. We could have opted for another breeder, of course, but I get a good feeling from this one. She seems to have a good bond with her dogs. And we generally like female dogs (ok, we've only had females, but we've met our share of horny males). 

The meeting will still be on Sunday. I'll keep you posted.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

There are more breed clubs for Dutch breeds where they like puppy buyers to be open to the idea of their dog being used to breed. Think of the Wetterhoun, Stabyhoun, Saarloos wolfhond and Smoushond.  It's really because most Dutch breeds have a small population and if too many good dogs aren't used because their owners have speutered them or simply aren't interested in breeding, that could mean the end of the breed. 
I know for a fact that the Wetterhoun is on the brink of extinction and owners are strongly encouraged to breed their dog. 

I'm sure your breeder will tell you more about the subject, don't be shy and tell them what's on your mind.  If you need help with translating information or anything, I'd be happy to help. 

Good luck on Sunday!


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## ps.dogfor (Mar 15, 2013)

A professional dog breeder is just that - a professional. You don't take gifts with you when you meet with a doctor or lawyer, a breeder should be no different. What you need to bring with you is preparation, honesty and respect. 

If you are dealing with a reputable breeder, you've already been screened. If the breeder hasn't already asked you to submit a questionnaire/application, bring a list of your vet and personal references. Be ready to ask and answer questions that demonstrate that you understand how to properly raise and care for a dog and have the facilities ready for one. 

Keep in mind that is a dog is neutered, it will not be able to compete in most club competition events. Most vets recommend that if a dog is to be neutered, it be done within 6 months of birth, and before the dog is sexually mature, to prevent the development of hormone-driven habits that many pet owners find objectionable. Though they may be physically able to get pregnant as early as 6-7 months, good breeding practice is to prevent breeding until a dog is fully mature and demonstrates stable, acceptable, personality characteristics, which may take another year. 

"Open to the idea of breeding a dog once" means that you are willing to do it under reasonable conditions. Since the job of a breeder is to breed dogs, and the job of a non-breeder owner is to provide care of a neutered pet dog, reasonable conditions in my mind include the breeder paying for all additional costs and inconveniences associated with breeding - insurance, transportation, and vet costs prior to the dog being neutered. 

If you aren't able to care for an intact dog through one breeding, SAY SO. Be open to the idea of getting a puppy which has an overt breed "imperfection" or one which has been bred once and returned to the breeder by an owner unable to continue caring for it. "Imperfect" dogs can be great pets.

All that being said, IMO, if a breeder decides to breed a "rare" breed, he should be willing and able to keep several generations of dogs through maturity - until he has a big enough pool of genetic diversity to breed for distribution. If he can't or won't keep a multi-generation kennel until he has a surplus of dogs, he's not a true professional.

If we've learned nothing else from breed "standards" and kennel clubs, we should have learned that standards alone don't produce healthy dogs - professional breeders do.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ps.dogfor said:


> A professional dog breeder is just that - a professional. You don't take gifts with you when you meet with a doctor or lawyer, a breeder should be no different. What you need to bring with you is preparation, honesty and respect.


I disagree. I don't think it's necessary to bring a gift, but breeders aren't "professionals" in the sense of a doctor or a lawyer. They breed as a hobby and make a living at their day job. Those that I have met treat puppy buyers somewhat as new members of their extended dog family, not as a professional puppy buying transaction. I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing a small gift for the momma dog or something if the OP would like.



> Keep in mind that is a dog is neutered, it will not be able to compete in most club competition events.


Not true. Pretty much even sport or event except for conformation can be done with a fixed dog. Not sure if it's the same in the Netherlands, where the OP is, but that's how it works with AKC events.



> All that being said, IMO, if a breeder decides to breed a "rare" breed, he should be willing and able to keep several generations of dogs through maturity - until he has a big enough pool of genetic diversity to breed for distribution. If he can't or won't keep a multi-generation kennel until he has a surplus of dogs, he's not a true professional.


And this is pretty much why breeders might need puppy buyers to consider breeding from their dogs in the future. I personally would not go to a breeder who had so many dogs that she could keep up genetic diversity. That's a huge number of dogs! I would much rather go to a breeder who has a few dogs, as many as she can properly care for, and who keeps track of her puppies and their owners, networks with other breeders, etc. to keep the breed going. Maybe it's different preferences for different people, but in my own breed I have only seen maybe one or two kennels who really keep a high number of dogs (and I won't be getting a puppy from them). Plus, those big kennels still don't have enough dogs to carry the genetic diversity of the breed. That would require a population of hundreds.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I was doing some research into the Saarloos Wolfhond.... my god, my list of dream dogs just keeps growing..


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I disagree. I don't think it's necessary to bring a gift, but breeders aren't "professionals" in the sense of a doctor or a lawyer. They breed as a hobby and make a living at their day job. Those that I have met treat puppy buyers somewhat as new members of their extended dog family, not as a professional puppy buying transaction. I don't think there's anything wrong with bringing a small gift for the momma dog or something if the OP would like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All of this ^^^

As to the breeder having enough dogs to sustain genetic diversity, that just seems very unrealistic. One of the puppy buyer tips I've seen several places is to be cautious of a breeder who repeatedly breeds his/her dogs to each other. The rationale being that it's unlikely that a single breeder will happen to have two dogs who are ideal matches for each other - multiple times. It's more likely that they are "breedings of convenience."


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Not true. Pretty much even sport or event except for conformation can be done with a fixed dog. Not sure if it's the same in the Netherlands, where the OP is, but that's how it works with AKC events.


It's exactly the same here.  



SydTheSpaniel said:


> I was doing some research into the Saarloos Wolfhond.... my god, my list of dream dogs just keeps growing..


I was really into Saarloos wolfhonden a couple years ago. While I still admire them, after meeting the dogs from the breed founder's daughter, seeing them at dog shows, learning about their genetic health (not so great...) and knowing of the feuds between the two breed clubs and just loads of dishonesty going around... I wouldn't want to own one. But they're beautiful, oh yes...


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

> I was really into Saarloos wolfhonden a couple years ago. While I still admire them, after meeting the dogs from the breed founder's daughter, seeing them at dog shows, learning about their genetic health (not so great...) and knowing of the feuds between the two breed clubs and just loads of dishonesty going around... I wouldn't want to own one. But they're beautiful, oh yes...


Really? That's disappointing.  They really are gorgeous dogs! I would probably never be capable of getting one anyways, given the rarity of them and the whole... international exporting and such, I hear it's insanely expensive as much as I will dream to one day have one of those beautiful rare breeds that are mostly found in certain countries! They do kind of remind me of a couple other similar breeds that aren't so rare.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Really? That's disappointing.  They really are gorgeous dogs! I would probably never be capable of getting one anyways, given the rarity of them and the whole... international exporting and such, I hear it's insanely expensive as much as I will dream to one day have one of those beautiful rare breeds that are mostly found in certain countries! They do kind of remind me of a couple other similar breeds that aren't so rare.


The only breeds that kinda look alike that I'm aware of are the Czech wolfdog and the Tamaskan, but character-wise the Saarloos is really something different. Really shy, big flight instinct, distrustful of anything new, strange and out of place. Imo they don't really have what it takes to deal with everyday life in our busy human society, unless you live somewhere on the countryside with lots of space. City life is definitely not for them, and well... it's very crowded here.  Not saying there aren't exceptions though, there are cases when a Saarloos does okay in a city. 

I've seen them several times at shows, and all dogs except for one were huddled in a corner or underneath their owner's legs. This was the one exception, lol: 










He lay there confidently in the middle of the path, hahah. 

When I was at the breed founder daughter's place for an interview I spent 3 hours just sitting in the yard and talking, not paying any attention to the dogs, occasionally sneaking a glance at them. After three hours, they were still all the way on the other side of the yard, eyeing me suspiciously. I only had to raise my hand and one would start barking and the other would flee away. The third looked at us once around a corner and hurried away, not showing herself anymore. 

These were very typical Saarloos wolfdogs, both in appearance and in character, I was told.


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## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

Yeah, the Saarloos dogs are beautiful. I know a shop owner in Leiden who keeps one. Really cute and friendly dog. I just don't think that I have what it takes to deal with that breed, but looks-wise, I love it.


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