# Help....1st time with Puppies, Do I get their tails docked....



## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok my pride and joy Mia had puppies and she is an amazing mom, she is a Maltese Shih tzu and she had 2 puppies,(well really 3 but we lost the little boy) late Thursday night early friday morning and I have an appointment with the vet for tonight to get the new baby girls tails docked but I am just not sure with this breed if this is the right thing to do or not. I am not a breeder, I am not selling the puppies, I am not leeting Mia or the little girls breed again, these new little girls whom are Bella and Sophie BTW are staying in my household. I just need a little help here please......what should I do.....


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

I'd say.... save the money and let them have their tails. I'm pretty sure that these dogs usually have their tails.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Neither of those breeds are traditionally docked, so no, I would not dock the tails.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

As the above posters said, Maltese and Shih Tzu breeds do not have docked tails. Why did you want to have the puppies tails docked?


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

No. Those breeds normally keep their tails. Use the money to get the mother and father spayed and neutered instead of bring more mixed breed puppies into the world.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

These are mixed breed puppies. There's no reason to dock the tail of a mutt.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

I just posted pictures of Mia pre puppies, as you can see she has a docked tail and I think that she is adorable. I did purchase Mia, as you can also see she is Black which is not very common in a Shih tzu Maltese.... but I guess it really comes down to personal preference....It is only $15 dollars a puppy. I paid way more than that on vet visits while she was pregnant to ensure that she was healthy and everything was progressing normally.


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## pandora (Mar 19, 2010)

Docking tails here is illeagal 

I think docking for any purpose other than in a real working dog equals mutilation.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Well I will decide on my own now...Thanks for the kind replys. To those of you that called my pets (family members) Mutts....kiss my....fill in the blank......


It is not illegal her in the USA to dock tails. I would never do it my self, like I said, I have a vet that will do it for me if I decide to take that route. 
If you look at my pictures my Mia's tail is docked.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Many of us do not find mutt an offensive term. Sorry if you do.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

No need to get defensive. A Mutt is just a short word for mixed breed, such as a Shih Tsu and Maltese cross. We love mutts, take a look around.

I agree with using the money to get them spayed. If you have no defined purpose for taking the tails, leave them. Just because mom is docked doesn't mean the kids have to be, especially since they will be pets.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Well I will decide on my own now...Thanks for the kind replys. To those of you that called my pets (family members) Mutts....kiss my....fill in the blank......
> 
> 
> It is not illegal her in the USA to dock tails. I would never do it my self, like I said, I have a vet that will do it for me if I decide to take that route.
> If you look at my pictures my Mia's tail is docked.


Not to be rude, Your Puppies are Mutts. 2 purebred dogs mixed together. It's not a demeaning term at all, It's just what your pups are. If it's not a purebred, then it's a mutt  I've owned Mutts in the past and love them just as much as I love my Pure APBT.

As for docking it's really your call, but it's not called for in either breed so it's not something necessary. Docking is something that is highly debated along with Cropping. Most of us here wouldn't dock tails unless it's necessary by breed standard. I have a dog who was docked, and he has issues with his docked tail at times. It does hurt me to see it bothering him. It's been a year now since it bothered him, but it did take a lot of time for it to heal. I have no clue when it was done since he is a rescue, but I know for the first year he was with me it was often red and swollen and he was only a year old when I got him.

It's honestly your call. Personally though I wouldn't dock the tails just because I like the dogs with tails. If this was Doberman Puppies or Rottie Puppies or Boxer puppies, I'd say go for it. Just to give you a view on why I say what I say


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have a docked breed and am not against docking a dogs tail at all. It just doesn't make sense to me to dock and undocked breed. There really isn't any benefit for you to dock these pups. Neither of the 2 breeds in these pups are normally docked breeds. Also, you would need to do this in the first 3 or so days anyway. The time to think about it is very short.


I would love to see pictures of the pups and mama anyhow.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

The genetics of a Maltese x Shih Tzu turning out black seem sort of questionable to me. I'd suspect she's got something else in there, too. REgardless, she should have been spayed, and why on earth would you dock puppies where the breed standard didn't call for it. I think pointy ears are cute on dogs but that wouldn't mean I'd get the ears cropped on a retriever or something if I got one!


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## Taz Monkey (Sep 2, 2007)

wow, defensive much? 
Neither a maltese or a shih tzu have docked tails. Why would you dock the tails of cross bred puppies? I don't get it. And I have 2 mutts. there's nothing wrong with calling a dog a mutt, if it is in fact a mutt...which your dog and her puppies are.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Sorry for the crabby reply I am working and dealing with my teanaged sons drama at the same time. I didnt mean to take offence. You are right they are mutts.... I did purchase my mutt mia. I also have a 14 year old Mutt Angel that I resuced from the ARL...I am just a dog lover....I will post pics of mama and puppies. 
The vet did say that I was ok to dock today if I want and I do have an appointment for 6:30 tonight I am just trying to decide if I should keep it or not....


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Inga said:


> It just doesn't make sense to me to dock and undocked breed.


I think a pretty good argument could be made for docking the tails of Great Danes, and a few others. Not that I'd do it, but I could see why one might want to.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Save the money and invest it into the pups another way. Put it towards a spay/neuter fund.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Trust me these will be spayed no matter what, the only reason Mia wasn't is we always wished that Angel wouldn't have been so Mia has had her one set and now she will be Spayed also....


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Malti and Shi tails tend to go over the back, no need to dock.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Hows about this for a reason. Docking the tail and cutting the nerves and what not that run thru it can impact rectal function and any other system that is tied into that nerve system you just severed in their tails. The only reason a malti-shih tzu would have a docked tail is because that designer breeder is trying to do something completely different from both parent breeds to make the designer breed stand on it's own merit as a seperate breed. 

I have known a few dogs that have had tails amputated or docked that have had life long lasting mental issues where they would bite at a phantom tail or at their bums kinda like a person who loses a limb. To have a tail docked for any reason aside of it being a working dog (that's how they use to tell working dogs in the 1800's-ish. The owners docked their tails and they wern't charged a tax for that dog, Plus it helped with not getting stepped on by cattle or caught in carts) is cruel. I support the countries that have banned tail docking and ear cropping except in the most extreme of needs/cases. The states should follow suit.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

New pics up in my album


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I agree with everyone else. No reason at all to dock a shih tzu/maltese. Neither breed is docked and the tails curl over the back and are not susceptible to 'happy tail' or any real reason to get a dog docked.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Also consider that docking is stress on puppies. Your puppies are at the outside edge of the docking age. The older puppies are the more pain and anxiety and stress they experience as a result of docking.

In certain cases, tail docking can lead to stress and infection causing the need for medical care, or even the death of the puppy.

No need to dock these, leave those cute tails alone!


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

Oh, if it's not already too late, I would implore you to not dock their tails! I know it's your decision to make, but I just see no reason what so ever to get them docked, so why do it?


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## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

Sometimes I want to dock Luna's tail...

For the sake of shins, and drinks on coffee tables everywhere...


But she's part boxer, and they are docked for that reason if I remember correct. 





P.S. I love my mutt.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I don't think the OP is listening, she'll do as she wishes just as she did with the breeding of a mixed breed dog . If the breed standards mattered at all to her she wouldn't even be considering a dock on Pups that are too old anyhow.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Trust me these will be spayed no matter what, the only reason Mia wasn't is we always wished that Angel wouldn't have been so Mia has had her one set and now she will be Spayed also....


.... so you bred her just so she could basically experience being a mommy?


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

marsha=whitie said:


> .... so you bred her just so she could basically experience being a mommy?


nono, it's because they regretted not breeding their dog Angel...


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Carla are you a vet? I would guess that my vet would not do it if they are too old. Also I did not know there was a breed standard on a MUTT...oh and I forgot to tell you that my mutt was breed with a yorkie poo which is another MUTT that does have DOCKED tails which then does give us a something to think about...1/2 of the dogs standards do get docked and 1/2 does not but they are mutts so now what do I do? oh wait....get them spayed....ummm already said I was doing that.... gosh some people are not very polite. Guess I can just be rude right back. and yes I was seriously considering every post that has been posted which is why I have been discussing cancelling the appointment with my husband....


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Mutt is not meant to be an offensive term. I own 3 mutts.

Backyard breeder is a more offensive term.

Please do not dock the tails. They are too old to do it with minimal pain, there is no good reason to do it, neither of the breeds they are from normally do it, and you are performing a surgical procedure that carries risks.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

The puppies are definitely on the outside edge of the appropriate age range for tail docking. It _will _be a traumatic procedure for them.

Since there is no reason to do it, I would strongly advise against it.


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## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

She's very defensive about the whole situation.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Internet forums are just great! You can ask nearly any kind of question or express nearly any kind of opinion and, if you don't like the responses, you can totally ignore them. 

Life in the real world should be so simple.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Carla are you a vet? I would guess that my vet would not do it if they are too old. Also I did not know there was a breed standard on a MUTT...oh and I forgot to tell you that my mutt was breed with a yorkie poo which is another MUTT that does have DOCKED tails which then does give us a something to think about...1/2 of the dogs standards do get docked and 1/2 does not but they are mutts so now what do I do? oh wait....get them spayed....ummm already said I was doing that.... gosh some people are not very polite. Guess I can just be rude right back. and yes I was seriously considering every post that has been posted which is why I have been discussing cancelling the appointment with my husband....


Actually, most vets WOULD do a docking if they were older, some would try to talk you out of it, but I know many Vets that would be like "OK! If you want it, I won't refuse your money! Heck if I do it now, I'll get even more money out of this person! Another Month of my College debt paid and my house is safe for another month.

Not all vets are like that, most aren't but many Vets will do whatever you want, since you are a paying customer. Just like Vets do not want to put young, healthy dogs down just because their owners do not want them anymore. They just do it because the customer wants them too.

3 days old is about when you want to dock tails, any older then that then you start running into trouble. This isn't something your Vet will talk about because with them, there is no "too old". From breeders who have been breeding for many many years like Red for example, knows almost more about docking tails then Vets do. While Vets do the work, They are there to watch the dogs and know from experience what works better. Red in fact is a Rottweiler breeder which in standard calls for docked tails. She knows what she is talking about with what works better for the puppies. 

Does that make sense? I hope it does. I've been dealing with a dog that ripped off a nail and it keeps starting to bleed again. I swear this dog is accident prone  so I haven't been completely with it as of late

Anyways. The people on this site believe in this very strongly. You sticking around shows that you are listening and trying to really come to an informed decision. I applaud you for that. Just remember you can't really read peoples tones too well on the internet. Some things come off more mean then they really should be. 

I do want to add that in the future this is something that should be thought of before the puppies come though  Mixed breeds may not have a standard, but you should take the breeds mixed in to thought when making a decision for things like this. Docked tails are for working dogs or dogs that have weak tails that are prone to breaking which is called "happy tail". Breeds that don't have these whip-like tails really have no use for docking. It would be a pointless thing to cause the pups pain over.

good luck on whatever you decide.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Well I will decide on my own now...Thanks for the kind replys. *To those of you that called my pets (family members) Mutts....kiss my....fill in the blank.*.....


This was really not called for. You have a mixed breed dog; therefore, you have a mutt. "Mutts" is not a derogatory term...at least not on DF. However, you must believe that it is, and that is sad.  Silly mutt (or "muttley") comes out of my mouth at least once a day to each of my dogs.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Carla are you a vet? I would guess that my vet would not do it if they are too old. Also I did not know there was a breed standard on a MUTT...oh and I forgot to tell you that my mutt was breed with a yorkie poo which is another MUTT that does have DOCKED tails which then does give us a something to think about...1/2 of the dogs standards do get docked and 1/2 does not but they are mutts so now what do I do? oh wait....get them spayed....ummm already said I was doing that.... gosh some people are not very polite. Guess I can just be rude right back. and yes I was seriously considering every post that has been posted which is why I have been discussing cancelling the appointment with my husband....


You're right, there is no breed standard on a mutt, the exact reason that your dog shouldn't have been bred in the first place. 

I also think that your puppies are on the high end of the age in which docking is acceptable. I hope that you will consider the trauma to the puppies and cancel your appointment.


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## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

Hi, I'm a Vet... Don't do it.




Problem solved.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Trust me these will be spayed no matter what, the only reason Mia wasn't is we always wished that Angel wouldn't have been so Mia has had her one set and now she will be Spayed also....


I'm very confused. I had assumed the best case scenario that this was just an oops breeding. Fine. Crap happens. Now you're saying that you deliberately bred a dog that is not a purebred? Why would you do that? It defies common sense. Even if we say for the sake of argument that you should've bred your previous dog, it still doesn't make any sense to me as to why you would breed this one. Can you explain this to me? 'Cuz I just don't get it.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Carla are you a vet? I would guess that my vet would not do it if they are too old. Also I did not know there was a breed standard on a MUTT...oh and I forgot to tell you that my mutt was breed with a yorkie poo which is another MUTT that does have DOCKED tails which then does give us a something to think about...1/2 of the dogs standards do get docked and 1/2 does not but they are mutts so now what do I do? oh wait....get them spayed....ummm already said I was doing that.... gosh some people are not very polite. Guess I can just be rude right back. and yes I was seriously considering every post that has been posted which is why I have been discussing cancelling the appointment with my husband....


I'm so glad my totally logical and unhostile post that gave a valid medical reason why not to dock was completely over looked. Oh well...


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Sorry all I was out of the office at lunch....
I will try to answer all questions....
1. My vet told me that today is the absolute last day that they would do the docking...and they were closed on Saturday, Sunday and Monday...
2. I decided to "breed" Mia becasue I think that she has the perfect temperment and I wanted another dog. I have the room and time for more, I am an animal lover. I also have the money to beable to care for them and make sure they are groomed and have all their shots and are seen regularly by a vet.
3. I could have gone to the ARL again but I wanted to start with a puppy so sue me....sorry I know there are a lot of dog that need homes, I am not selling dogs, if you don't like my choice then I am sorry. 
This could end up to be an all day debate so I guess we should just agree to disagee I was just hoping to get some opinions. And to those that gave me your opinions I really appriciate it and I will take all of them into consideration as I make this decision with my husband.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

You bred your dog that's a mutt to another mutt because you couldn't breed your previous dog? (was she a mutt too?) I'm sorry, but that's just retarded. 

And you want to dock tails of dogs that don't need it done for any reason? There's no pro to docking a mutt. Only cons; nerve problems, spine problems, and PAIN. Are you all for torturing animals now too? (that was uncalled for, I know)

You may as well continue on with being an irresponsible pet owner and put them through the pain of getting docked too late. You'll have even more mutt-looking, odd looking dogs that aren't necessary in the world.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Sorry all I was out of the office at lunch....
> I will try to answer all questions....
> 1. My vet told me that today is the absolute last day that they would do the docking...and they were closed on Saturday, Sunday and Monday...
> 2. I decided to "breed" Mia becasue I think that she has the perfect temperment and I wanted another dog. I have the room and time for more, I am an animal lover. I also have the money to beable to care for them and make sure they are groomed and have all their shots and are seen regularly by a vet.
> ...



Your dog may have been sweet, but she didn't have the proper health testing done, didn't have titles under her belt, and isn't a purebred dog. There is absolutely NO reason to breed a dog with those attributes. It just adds to more chaos and poorly bred dogs. You could have bought a puppy from a breeder or a rescue just as easily, and you would have actually been doing something good for dogs. 

It's not that we don't like your choice, it's that it was the WRONG choice. You wanted opinions, and you got them. They just aren't the opinions you wanted.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I might point out to certain posters, (as was pointed out to me many times in the past before I "got it", and I still need a refresher from time to time, but I digress....) that if a person no longer comes here, there is no chance for them to learn from us.

The breeding and whelping has already happened.

She has stated she is not breeding her again, and that the puppies will be spayed.

She says she is reading and considering all the posts.

What else do you want from her?


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

DJetzel....the reason I asked is that both dogs were purchased from breeders Mia for $1200 and Pepe for $600 and both dogs tails are docked, so my logical question would be should I dock the puppies so shoot me for asking. 

Sorry, guess I will just delete my profile now. Thanks for the "help"


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Oh and BTW both dogs do have papers from the breeders....ooops guess I forgot to mention that part. sorry to get defensive....

I still love my dogs and my puppies!


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Please don't go!

DJetzel means well, she really does. She is just a young person, and comes across a little blunt sometimes. It is all that teen passion. 

This is a great forum with so many nice people I hope you will change your mind.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

Jodi (OP), please don't base your very important (& irreversible) decision on some posts that you may take offense to, but rather on the opinions of those that are very knowledegable & only trying to help. And of course discuss with your husband, as ultimately the decision is yours ... just don't let neg feelings or emotions against some responses here be an influence.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> I might point out to certain posters, (as was pointed out to me many times in the past before I "got it", and I still need a refresher from time to time, but I digress....) that if a person no longer comes here, there is no chance for them to learn from us.
> 
> The breeding and whelping has already happened.
> 
> ...


I agree.

/message is too short/


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> DJetzel....the reason I asked is that both dogs were purchased from breeders Mia for $1200 and Pepe for $600 and both dogs tails are docked, so my logical question would be should I dock the puppies so shoot me for asking.
> 
> Sorry, guess I will just delete my profile now. Thanks for the "help"


You need to ignore any post that you feel are rude, and just think about the ones you feel are helpful. People are going to have different opinions and online you just can't really tell how someone means something. You got a lot of good post telling you why or why not they think you should dock the tails, so just go off those. 

But since i havent said anything on this. IMO you shouldn't dock the tails. If they are just pets then there is no reason to do it. But it's up to you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

While yorkies and toy poodles are docked, it's mostly for aesthetic reasons. Since the pups are only 1/4th of each breed I wouldn't think docking them would be typical. The mother's breeds (tzu and maltese) are never usually docked. 

Docking is most important in large, working type breeds with whippy tails. In smaller dogs, who I'd think would be likely to have curly tails based on the breed, it's not going to be a big benefit. They are at the older end for docking too, which would concern me.

Are you keeping both pups? Just curious lol.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Gosh Red, thanks for the compiment....passionate yes....teen I WISH....I am 36 BTW...with an 18 year old and 17 year old son... 
Did I jump the gun with Mia probably yes...I thought that after....then I got scared to death....then I felt them little puppies kick inside her and knew that I would love them just as much as I love her... the yorkie poo that I let her tie up with belongs to my mother in law whom is keeping sophie...we have never once went into this with the intention of selling a single puppy. although we have had many offers to do so I would never do that. I just want to do right by the sweet little girls. That is all. I am sorry if I get defensive, I just don't live feeling as if I am being attacked. I could go on and on all day long. All I know is that my love for my dogs is almost as strong as the love I felt when my kids were born. I sat up all night with mia and helped her have her babies, I researched for hours on the internet beforehand, I cut each cord myself, I cried when the first puppy was stillborn. I just want to do the right thing.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> You bred your dog that's a mutt to another mutt because you couldn't breed your previous dog? (was she a mutt too?) I'm sorry, but that's just retarded.
> 
> And you want to dock tails of dogs that don't need it done for any reason? There's no pro to docking a mutt. Only cons; nerve problems, spine problems, and PAIN. Are you all for torturing animals now too? (that was uncalled for, I know)
> 
> You may as well continue on with being an irresponsible pet owner and put them through the pain of getting docked too late. You'll have even more mutt-looking, odd looking dogs that aren't necessary in the world.


wow... chill kiddo... you're getting close to that line between passion and psycho.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Gosh Red, thanks for the compiment....passionate yes....teen I WISH....I am 36 BTW...with an 18 year old and 17 year old son...


She was referring to DJETzel.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Gosh Red, thanks for the compiment....passionate yes....teen I WISH....I am 36 BTW...with an 18 year old and 17 year old son...
> Did I jump the gun with Mia probably yes...I thought that after....then I got scared to death....then I felt them little puppies kick inside her and knew that I would love them just as much as I love her... the yorkie poo that I let her tie up with belongs to my mother in law whom is keeping sophie...we have never once went into this with the intention of selling a single puppy. although we have had many offers to do so I would never do that. I just want to do right by the sweet little girls. That is all. I am sorry if I get defensive, I just don't live feeling as if I am being attacked. I could go on and on all day long. All I know is that my love for my dogs is almost as strong as the love I felt when my kids were born. I sat up all night with mia and helped her have her babies, I researched for hours on the internet beforehand, I cut each cord myself, I cried when the first puppy was stillborn. I just want to do the right thing.


Red was referring to my teen passion.  Which I do have, and I am completley blunt. I'm not trying to attack you, I'm just trying to make you realize that you shouldn't have bred her to begin with, but like Red said, what's done is done, and we can't change that, but we can change them getting their tails docked.

Like mentioned, there's really no need for it. They'll look just as cute, if not cuter with tails (and curly ones at that). All they'd be getting out of it is pain, and since they are just pets, there's really no reason to dock. 

I just wanted you to realize that just because you paid money for them (which is supporting back yard breeders, just so you know) and they are nice dogs that are vetted, it's never good to breed dogs that are mixes, or that aren't shown. Especially when the haven't gotten the proper health testings, that it appears your dogs didn't have. Dogs are bred to further the breed, and while it's good that you're not selling them for profit, it's frowned upon by most of us here to breed dogs that have no business being bred. 

I am glad you're trying to get help and can take care of them and keep them though, and I'm very glad you're getting them spayed. I don't mean to get so 'rude', I just hate seeing so many people come here talking about breeding their mutts. 

Good luck with them, I hope you make good choices for them. I apologize for going crazy there..


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> wow... chill kiddo... you're getting close to that line between passion and psycho.


I know. I'm having a bad day. 30,000 tornados, the town's torn up, we haven't had electricity for the day, I haven't showerd, I'm dog sitting, and I haven't gotten any sleep. I apologize.


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## babydmnc (Dec 8, 2008)

DJEtzel- please do not use the word "retarded" that IS very offensive, teen passion or not. 

to the OP, no I would not dock the tails, good luck with the pups


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Thanks everyone, I also appologize for all my Teen Passion...LOL   It has been a crazy day here at work and then to have this vet appointment tonight and now be not sure of my decision. I will have another long talk with the hubby and vet. I have had the same vet for 15 years and really do trust him. I do also value your opinions! Well I am about to get off work and go deal with my teenage son and his girlfriend DRAMA on top of all this! Have a great day all!


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## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

This thread is wild and crazy.


So...

There is no reason to dock their tails other than you prefer the look.

Do it or don't, it's your call, they are your dogs. It will cause them some un-needed pain though.

As for the two dogs being mated...

After the fact is a little to late to complain. Just hope a lesson was learned. The only upside to what everyone is calling a bad idea is that she's not dumping a litter off to random owners, so as long as she keeps them, provides the care needed if the health problems suspect do arise, it's on her. She's accepted all the responsibility.

As far as the drama goes... atleast it's amussing.

I hope the OP sticks around long enough for puppy pictures.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Tw1n....
There are alreay pics up on my profile....
I promise to stick around no matter what but I want you all to promise not to get mad at me if I decide to go through with it! 
Check out those pics....they are adorable!!!!!

Oh and I will add a comedy one of my footstool Angel....during a beerpong game one night she was getting her belly rubbed and NOTHING gets in the way of her belly rubs....

go see to believe!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

They are very cute!

I won't be mad if you go through with it but I do wonder why you'd still consider it. There's really no reason to dock these puppies at all.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

I gotta say, I will be very disappointed if you decide to have them docked. I hope you don't.

I also gotta say ... the pups are totally adorable!


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> They are very cute!
> 
> I won't be mad if you go through with it but I do wonder why you'd still consider it. There's really no reason to dock these puppies at all.


Thank you...

I personally like the docked tail better but for health and pain reasons I am going to review my options more after joining this site...


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

tw1n said:


> As for the two dogs being mated...
> 
> After the fact is a little to late to complain. Just hope a lesson was learned. The only upside to what everyone is calling a bad idea is that she's not dumping a litter off to random owners, so as long as she keeps them, provides the care needed if the health problems suspect do arise, it's on her. She's accepted all the responsibility.


I totally agree, whats done is done...and even so I agree with the OP. They are her dogs, she is not a back yard breeder selling puppies, she is keeping and taking full responsibility for both puppies. I dont see anything wrong with what she has done. Sure there was no health testing done...but she is willing to deal with that...and yes she bred mutts to get more mutts...but they are all her mutts. She loved her dog and wanted one of its puppies...I understand...I would have loved to have one of Maggies puppies, but I am not in a position to care for a full litter of puppies, and I dont know anything about breeding...so she was spayed and I got a mutt (which I love).

And to the OP I have one dog with a docked tail and one with a tail. My Bella is a mutt and has her tail, Maggie is a purebred JRT with a docked tail...I thought when I got Maggie that if given the choice I would NEVER dock a dogs tail...now I dont even have a preference...but would probably not dock if given the choice.

Also I have a Mutt and dont find the term offensive at all...heck I even call my JRT a mutt when she is driving me nuts...to me Mutt= dog


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

We aren't going to get mad.. but you still haven't answered the questions of WHY you want to dock them. 

Do you like the look better or what? Do you realize that there really isn't any reason to do it, and that it causes pain? Do you have issues with tails going crazy and breaking things?

ETA; sorry, I didn't see your reason before posting this. I had the page loaded for a while, I guess.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Ok my pride and joy Mia had puppies and she is an amazing mom, she is a Maltese Shih tzu and she had 2 puppies,(well really 3 but we lost the little boy) late Thursday night early friday morning and I have an appointment with the vet for tonight to get the new baby girls tails docked but I am just not sure with this breed if this is the right thing to do or not. I am not a breeder, I am not selling the puppies, I am not leeting Mia or the little girls breed again, these new little girls whom are Bella and Sophie BTW are staying in my household. I just need a little help here please......what should I do.....


I wouldnt think that those two breeds would produce an almost pure black dog with very little white and brown. Your dogs coloring looks alot like my Bella, although I have no idea what she is I have in the past thought Havanese and poodle...I wonder if your dog is Shih tzu and Havanese??

Cute pics though what a bunch of cute dogs


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Misty the coloring is a lot alike....I have papers that say she is a Shih Tzu Maltese and the Yorkie Poo was Black/Brown also...

She is a doll...I will have to post a pic from when I first got her...she looked like a stuffed teddy bear....


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## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

Oh man... Angel is uh.... tubby little thing huh?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

They're mixes so any papers are probably from the CKC, in which case they could have listed great dane or whatever they'd like and they'd send them papers. That registry is a rip off, basically, and their papers mean nothing. Akc is the better registry, where dogs actually have to be the correct breed to get registered, and mix breeds cannot be registered (there is the alternative listing).


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

tw1n said:


> Oh man... Angel is uh.... tubby little thing huh?


 Uuummmm yeah.... she is is surely not starving....lol


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

DJEtzel said:


> We aren't going to get mad.. but you still haven't answered the questions of WHY you want to dock them.


I do belive she answered that question many times over in addition to the other questions she's already answered. 

She's stated that both mom and dad of these pups have docked tails, so therefore assumed the pups should be docked. She prefers the look of a docked tail. And the father of the pups is a Yorkie/Poodle mix, so half of the breeds in the mix are traditionaly docked breeds. 

Personally I wouldn't have their tails docked. Shih Tzus and Maltese have cute tails that fall over thier back, I would imagine a Yorkie tail would be similar and Poodle tails aren't unatractive either. While you're still within the 5 day time limit you are pushing it and it would have been better to have it done at 3 or 4 days. Also while I'm sure you trust your vet, personaly I would find docking tails on mixed breeds a questionable practice. At the vet hospital I work at we WILL NOT dock mixed breeds regardless of what the owners demand us to do. Thankfully we've only run into one mixed breed breeder who was less than happy with our policy.

Another thing to consider is if these pups have dewclaws. The deadline to have them done on pups is 5 days old. So even if you don't have their tails docked you may still want to keep the appointment to have their dewclaws done.


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## JonnyNutro (Mar 29, 2010)

It is certainly up to you. It is legal in the U.S. to dock and crop. So I think it is sort of an elective surgery. Just seems a shame to lose the tails if it is unnecessary. It has been made illegal in Europe even for pure bred dogs because it is simply no longer necessary in most situations.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> They're mixes so any papers are probably from the CKC, in which case they could have listed great dane or whatever they'd like and they'd send them papers. That registry is a rip off, basically, and their papers mean nothing. Akc is the better registry, where dogs actually have to be the correct breed to get registered, and mix breeds cannot be registered (there is the alternative listing).


DJ....that really makes me wonder what kind of papers I have when I get home I will have to check that out! Man you guys and gals are really give me an eduaction today! And no that is not a bad thing....LOL


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok so I am trying to put up a pic as my profile pic and its not working help.....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Ok so I am trying to put up a pic as my profile pic and its not working help.....


Go to user CP.

On the left side there is a button that says 'edit avatar'

click that.

You can upload straight from the computer but the file size needs to be small and the dimensions can't be bigger than 80 x 80.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh btw guys tzus come in black. 

http://www.istaprofessionalhandling.com/images/356_Salsa_crop.jpg

Yeah 'papers' these days can mean anything. There's lots of registries in the US now and many are less than reputable. AKC, UKC are the two more reputable all breed registries but then there's also things like the JRTCA and ABCA for single breeds (Jack russells and border collies respectively).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I will be disappointed if you dock the tails... just because I'm worried about it causing the puppies pain since it's being done right at the end of the window for docking. I also think they'd look very cute with the curly tails. 

I think you should keep the appointment and just get the dewclaws removed. But I'm not going to tell you what to do.

Glad you plan to have the pups spayed or neutered. 



DJEtzel said:


> They're mixes so any papers are probably from the CKC, in which case they could have listed great dane or whatever they'd like and they'd send them papers. That registry is a rip off, basically, and their papers mean nothing. Akc is the better registry, where dogs actually have to be the correct breed to get registered, and mix breeds cannot be registered (there is the alternative listing).


Just to clarify -- CKC in this instance stands for Continental Kennel Club. The Canadian Kennel Club is also known as the CKC, but it is a reputable registry, unlike the Continental Kennel Club.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Personally I like leaving the front dewclaws if they're nice and attached. Definitely remove back ones though if they have any.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Oh btw guys tzus come in black.
> 
> http://www.istaprofessionalhandling.com/images/356_Salsa_crop.jpg
> 
> Yeah 'papers' these days can mean anything. There's lots of registries in the US now and many are less than reputable. AKC, UKC are the two more reputable all breed registries but then there's also things like the JRTCA and ABCA for single breeds (Jack russells and border collies respectively).


I was told that shih tzu come in black but that they are more rare, when her hair is shorter it does look more gray than black but she was coal black when we got her, except for her white patches of course....the puppie with the white patches has them in the exact same spots as Mia does and I think that is just amazing....


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> Personally I wouldn't have their tails docked. Shih Tzus and Maltese have cute tails that fall over thier back, I would imagine a Yorkie tail would be similar and Poodle tails aren't unatractive either.


Undocked Yorkie:


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

AS for Dewclaws you are right, Mia has them but Pepe does not, Mia does not seem to be bothered by them. They are both inside dogs too.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> I was told that shih tzu come in black but that they are more rare, when her hair is shorter it does look more gray than black but she was coal black when we got her, except for her white patches of course....the puppie with the white patches has them in the exact same spots as Mia does and I think that is just amazing....


Oh good you got the picture to work. 

I have a Mia too, she's in my signature.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> AS for Dewclaws you are right, Mia has them but Pepe does not, Mia does not seem to be bothered by them. They are both inside dogs too.


I've always had them removed before but of our current dogs, 4 have dewclaws and 1 had his removed. My dogs actually use the dewclaws a lot to grip things. We haven't had any real problems with them except Beau tore one pretty bad. Then again, he's accident prone.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

If the pups are still just a few days old then docking is perfectly fine if it is the personal preference of the breeder/owner. 

The argument that the dogs are not of a breed they is normally docked would only make sense if the docked breeds were docked for some other reason than personal preference, but they're not.

The argument that docking effects function flies in the face of the observed evidence to the contrary of tens of millions of docked dogs.

The trauma of docking a 3 day old pup is insignificant relative to normal trauma even the best cared for dogs will encounter throughout it's life including every time it gets it's foot stepped on hard, suffers a minor injury it can walk of, is neutered, gets scared, etc., and is probably negated by all the times it's tail won't get stepped on.

If the pups are under 4 day old, dock if you want. Don't dock if you don't. Your pups won't care either way.

If the pups are more them 4 days old, absolutely do not get them docked.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> I will be disappointed if you dock the tails... just because I'm worried about it causing the puppies pain since it's being done right at the end of the window for docking. I also think they'd look very cute with the curly tails.
> 
> I think you should keep the appointment and just get the dewclaws removed. But I'm not going to tell you what to do.
> 
> ...


Yes, sorry, I always forget about the canadians. My bad. Canadian Kennel Club is good, but you wouldn't have been able to register them with anything other that the Continental Kennel Club, which doesn't mean anything like I said. Someone said that you could get registration for your guinea pig if you tried and call him a random dog breed. They don't check into your dog at all. They could be registered with the AKCs alternative listing for mixed breeds, but I don't know why anyone would go through that unless they were going to show; it just gives access to mixed breeds to be in AKC sanctioned events. 



Laurelin said:


> Personally I like leaving the front dewclaws if they're nice and attached. Definitely remove back ones though if they have any.


I thought the back dew claws were rare and were attached by bone and should not be removed?


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> If the pups are still just a few days old then docking is perfectly fine if it is the personal preference of the breeder/owner.
> 
> The argument that the dogs are not of a breed they is normally docked would only make sense if the docked breeds were docked for some other reason than personal preference, but they're not.
> 
> ...



pups were 4 days old as of 7 am this morning......


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

KaseyT, they were born late Thursday night/early Friday morning (according to the original post), which means the pups are five days old late tonight/early tomorrow morning. The vet said this is the absolute last day he'd do them... that's why some of us are iffy on it, I think; it's just so close to the end of the window.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Just to clarify...1st pup that was stillborn was born at 4am on 4/2/10 woke me up cause it was in the middle of my bed...lol, last of the 3 was 7:07 am I think if I am being exact....lol

Time for me to hit the road from work for real no more overtime for these folks....like im working hard right....I will log on at home 

All I know is I told my hubby atleast she waited and it wasnt April Fools anymore....


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> KaseyT, they were born late Thursday night/early Friday morning (according to the original post), which means the pups are five days old late tonight/early tomorrow morning. The vet said this is the absolute last day he'd do them... that's why some of us are iffy on it, I think; it's just so close to the end of the window.


In that case I would say err on the safe side and don't do it. Development occurs very quickly, maybe even more in small dogs, but I'm not sure. 

If I was set on docking I would make sure it was done at exactly the right time.


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## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

Not to hijack but what's the effect of removing the dew claw on an older dog? Luna has one on the inside of each back paw. They are only atached by skin from the feel of it, and I always worry she's gonna catch them on something and hurt herself.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> DJ....that really makes me wonder what kind of papers I have when I get home I will have to check that out! Man you guys and gals are really give me an eduaction today! And no that is not a bad thing....LOL


Don't let papers fool you no matter where they're from, either. My sister has a BYB Pug with absolute nonsense papers. I have a BYB Dachshund who has PRA with AKC papers.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I thought the back dew claws were rare and were attached by bone and should not be removed?


Actually, rear dewclaws are the ones that are usually not attached by bone and are more regularly removed because they "serve no purpose", where else front dewclaws are the ones that are like an extra digit.

Jodi, have you made a decision on the docking yet?

I'd go with the others who've said not to... besides the fact that it's kind of late to be docking them, I think dogs communicate alot through their tails, so it'll be nice to leave them on.


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## BorderGal (Nov 29, 2008)

Well, my "2 cents worth" is a "NO". I think both these breeds look real cute with their tails and I can't see any advantage to docking. As a Rescue 2x $15 buys vaccines, a lot of dog food or goes pretty close to 1/2 toward a spay/neuter (Rescue Rate). Even if you are made of money why waste it? As a vet tech it's the 2nd least favorite thing I've ever had to tech especially when people wait too long (cat declawing being #1 and at least they are under). Again, just my opinion but I hope you leave them as they were born!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

lucidity said:


> Actually, rear dewclaws are the ones that are usually not attached by bone and are more regularly removed because they "serve no purpose", where else front dewclaws are the ones that are like an extra digit.
> 
> Jodi, have you made a decision on the docking yet?
> 
> I'd go with the others who've said not to... besides the fact that it's kind of late to be docking them, I think dogs communicate alot through their tails, so it'll be nice to leave them on.


Ah, I guess I got my information mixed up. Thank you.

That's a good point about communication too that you've made. I'm surprised no one else thought of it.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I think dogs communicate alot through their tails, so it'll be nice to leave them on.


The only docked-tail dog I've had much experience with is my daughter's miniature schnauzer. (He has a docked tail but uncropped ears.) He has no problem communicating with that stubby little tail. Most people aren't very good at interpreting the meaning of a wagging tail, anyway. 










I would never deprive her of it, but Esther's tail is a lethal weapon. I'm home recovering from some surgery and I have to be careful she doesn't wack me with that club.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Ah, I guess I got my information mixed up. Thank you.
> 
> That's a good point about communication too that you've made. I'm surprised no one else thought of it.


No problem. I always wish that Cadence's breeder hadn't had his dewclaws removed.. he has trouble gripping things sometimes, lol.



RonE said:


> The only docked-tail dog I've had much experience with is my daughter's miniature schnauzer. (He has a docked tail but uncropped ears.) He has no problem communicating with that stubby little tail. Most people aren't very good at interpreting the meaning of a wagging tail, anyway.
> 
> I would never deprive her of it, but Esther's tail is a lethal weapon. I'm home recovering from some surgery and I have to be careful she doesn't wack me with that club.


Well, just because we aren't good at interpreting its meaning, doesn't mean other dogs aren't also.  I read research somewhere that showed dogs communicate with other dogs with their tails as well... guess we'll just never know for sure what they mean.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Please don't dock those beautiful puppies' tails! Maltese and Shih Tzu both carry them over their back in a curl. It makes them look very dignified. I have no idea why they docked Mia's tail, but please leave them on those puppies, it's such a waste of gorgeous natural tails!


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

misty073 said:


> I totally agree, whats done is done...and even so I agree with the OP. They are her dogs, she is not a back yard breeder selling puppies, she is keeping and taking full responsibility for both puppies. I dont see anything wrong with what she has done. Sure there was no health testing done...but she is willing to deal with that...and yes she bred mutts to get more mutts...but they are all her mutts. She loved her dog and wanted one of its puppies...I understand...I would have loved to have one of Maggies puppies, but I am not in a position to care for a full litter of puppies, and I dont know anything about breeding...so she was spayed and I got a mutt (which I love).


While what's done is done, I can't agree that the OP did the right thing in breeding her dog. She did no health testing and deliberately bred mixed breed dogs. I'm sorry, but irresponsibly breeding dogs is wrong regardless of your reasons for doing so. A mixed breed dog should never, ever, ever, ever, ever be bred for any reason whatsoever. It doesn't matter how much you love the dog. It's flat out irresponsible.

That being said, what is done is done and can't be undone. I'm sure the OP will spay/neuter all the puppies prior to placement and will spay the mom as well. The tails of the puppies shouldn't be docked IMO.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Carla are you a vet? I would guess that my vet would not do it if they are too old. Also I did not know there was a breed standard on a MUTT...oh and I forgot to tell you that my mutt was breed with a yorkie poo which is another MUTT that does have DOCKED tails which then does give us a something to think about...1/2 of the dogs standards do get docked and 1/2 does not but they are mutts so now what do I do? oh wait....get them spayed....ummm already said I was doing that.... gosh some people are not very polite. Guess I can just be rude right back. and yes I was seriously considering every post that has been posted which is why I have been discussing cancelling the appointment with my husband....



No, I'm not a vet, but I AM a person with 30 years experience in docked breeds. No there are no breed standards on mixes, However the standards fir the two breeds involved call for natural tails that go over the back, therefore that's the standard I was reffering to. Tails should ideally be docked (in breeds that call for it) at 3-5 days, after that time frame the window closes and chances for infection, incontinence and permanent nerve damage increase dramatically. After 7 days of age you may as well consider it an amputation instead of a dock. 

As afr as being rude, I'm only so when I feel it's called for


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have Shih Tzu x Maltese and they have the most beautiful tails. Please do not dock them. Your female may be docked if she has Yorkie or Poodle in her but Shih Tzu and Maltese are never docked.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh I also happen to be a proponent for docking in breeds that call for it. 

As far as what you paid for mixed breed dogs, I'm sorry you fell I to the trap of a dishonest breeder, any registry papers you have are basically junk. The only AMERICAN registry that's legitimate is AKC. I truly wish you'd have come before paying 1200 for a mix that you could have gotten for a fraction of the price elsewhere.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

lucidity said:


> Well, just because we aren't good at interpreting its meaning, doesn't mean other dogs aren't also.  I read research somewhere that showed dogs communicate with other dogs with their tails as well... guess we'll just never know for sure what they mean.


I know what the different tail postures mean


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Ok, well here it goes....hubby and I did decide to go ahead and do the tails, we also did the dew claws. All is done. Pups only cried for a few minutes then started nursing. No bleeding, vet stitched the tails and glued the claws. Everything looks clean and healthy. No continued bleeding. Sorry for all I disappointed. 
We decided that we both like the way that Mia and Pepe look and want their pups to look like mom and dad. Thanks to all for your advice and I hope to still be part of this forum now that I have found you!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Ugh... hopefully you don't start carrying them around in purses next. Good Luck.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Ugh... hopefully you don't start carrying them around in purses next. Good Luck.




I can promise you that will not happen....now I will tell you that Mia does have some clothes though....but in my defense it was winter when I got her and she was 1.5 lbs and it was really hard to take the poor thing outside to potty in our Iowa weather....


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> The only AMERICAN registry that's legitimate is AKC.


I'd say that's debateable. If I wanted a coonhound I certainly woundn't walk away from a UKC dog. AKC is NOT the end all be all for purebred dogs, and I'm usually on the side of promoting the AKC. For most breeds if conformation is your thing and you want to be competivtive then you'll have to go with AKC. But if you're interested in performance and/or working ability then there are other quality options out there to consider.


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## JonnyNutro (Mar 29, 2010)

I know what you mean. I have a Plott Hound mix who will not go outside if it is below 10 degrees above zero unless she has on her winter coat. Here in Fargo, that can be a period of up to two months. My Newfie, now he is exactly the opposite. He lays on a snow drift in a blizzard like we would lay on the beach on a warm sunny day!


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Uhhhh, I'm sad to hear that their beautiful tails are gone.


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## JonnyNutro (Mar 29, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I know what the different tail postures mean


So do I. They communicate very well with their whole bodies, but especially with their ears and tails.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

animalcraker said:


> I'd say that's debateable. If I wanted a coonhound I certainly woundn't walk away from a UKC dog. AKC is NOT the end all be all for purebred dogs, and I'm usually on the side of promoting the AKC. For most breeds if conformation is your thing and you want to be competivtive then you'll have to go with AKC. But if you're interested in performance and/or working ability then there are other quality options out there to consider.




I've never heard of that registry, however for the breeds we're talking about I'd only go AKC. Does UKC recognize mixes?


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Sorry Luvun....BTW your signature pic is beautiful!!!!!


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> I've never heard of that registry, however for the breeds we're talking about I'd only go AKC. Does UKC recognize mixes?


united kennel club? no, they are a good registry like AKC. they just recognize APBTs, unlike AKC, and they recognize some other breeds AKC doesn't. APBT is the first I can think of.

edit: Im surprised you haven't herd of it. Ive seen it mentioned on this board a lot.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Sorry Luvun....BTW your signature pic is beautiful!!!!!


Thank you- that's my pride and joy, my Shih Tzu Gingerbread. I guess I have strong feelings on this because I think their tails are gorgeous.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The United Kennel Club is the second-oldest all-breed registry in the United States... it's been around for more than 100 years. It's a good registry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kennel_Club
http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/WebPages/LrnAboutUKC

It's more of a performance dog registry, although they do conformation shows as well.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Well she is adorable.....
I also think if I had a shih tzu that looked like one that had the straight hair I may have different feelings but my Mia is this adorable curly mess.... I love her that way though! LOL 

Alright I am off to bed for the night! Hope these pups sleep well...they sleep at the foot of my bed in their box. Mia still has not adjusted to the the fact that she doesn't get to sleep with mommy anymore thought! LOL

Have a good night all!


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Well she is adorable.....
> I also think if I had a shih tzu that looked like one that had the straight hair I may have different feelings but my Mia is this adorable curly mess.... I love her that way though! LOL


she is curly because of the poodle in her am I right? and if the pups were purebred, you wouldn't have docked? am I reading this right?


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

bigblackdogs said:


> she is curly because of the poodle in her am I right? and if the pups were purebred, you wouldn't have docked? am I reading this right?


No Mia is Maltese Shih tzu....don't know why she is curly ...I just meant I might like the long tail look better if her hair was straight but I don't know cause Mia came docked....I will post pics tomorrow of when I grew her hair longer it was crazy....Pups do have the poodle in them


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> The only AMERICAN registry that's legitimate is AKC. I truly wish you'd have come before paying 1200 for a mix that you could have gotten for a fraction of the price elsewhere.


I'm sorry but you are incorrect with that.

There is 2 registries in the US, AKC (American Kennel Club) and UKC (United Kennel Club).

The UKC started as a registry for the American Pit Bull Terrier and has grown into the second largest registry in the US. No they do NOT allow Mix breeds and allow more rarer breeds then AKC does. AKC is considered the "fancy" show registry and the UKC is more of a Working, Avg Joe registry.

Another huge difference is the atmosphere. In AKC everyone "dresses" up for the show ring and you have to be a "professional" handler to go anywhere in the ring. In UKC, I can walk into the ring with no experience (Which I did last year) and the Judge will actually talk you though the whole thing and not judge you for it. You can even wear jeans and not be looked down on.

I am involved with UKC more then the AKC just because of my breed. AKC only does AST NOT APBT which has now really became it's own breed. It is a legit registry I can assure you.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> No Mia is Maltese Shih tzu....don't know why she is curly ...I just meant I might like the long tail look better if her hair was straight but I don't know cause Mia came docked....I will post pics tomorrow of when I grew her hair longer it was crazy....Pups do have the poodle in them


Docking isn't done for aesthetic reasons though. Docking is done to keep the tail from being injured while the dog is working in the field. This is the reason some breed standards call for docking.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Mia's coat looks Poodley. Neither Shih Tzu or Maltese have that type of coat. Also, it would be MUCH more likely to have a black dog that's a Poodle/Shih Tzu mix. Are you absolutely sure that she's a Maltese/Shih Tzu?


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> No Mia is Maltese Shih tzu....don't know why she is curly ...I just meant I might like the long tail look better if her hair was straight but I don't know cause Mia came docked....I will post pics tomorrow of when I grew her hair longer it was crazy....Pups do have the poodle in them


ah. sorry. I thought I saw poodle somewhere in the thread though. so pups have poodle, but mom doesn't.

there are lots of curly haired goldendoodles with their tails. I think it is cure.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> The genetics of a Maltese x Shih Tzu turning out black seem sort of questionable to me. I'd suspect she's got something else in there, too. REgardless, she should have been spayed, and why on earth would you dock puppies where the breed standard didn't call for it. I think pointy ears are cute on dogs but that wouldn't mean I'd get the ears cropped on a retriever or something if I got one!


The tails are done, so I have no need to weigh in, but just thought I'd mention that as Shih Tzus come in solid black there is no question at all that a mix of Shih Tzu would too. Black is dominant, and so is solid coloring.

As well, I've noted that most Malteses, when mixed, tend to produce solid puppies - they carry the dominant solid gene (and often sable on the agouti locus). Any black/white Shih Tzu bred to a Maltese would have odds of producing half solid black puppies - the dominant solid gene from the Maltese and the dominant black gene from the Shih Tzu. The white spotting gene from the Shih Tzu would be carried.

The curly coat is more suspicious, indicating "Mom" might have more than just these two breeds in her.

To the OP, I'd never call her a mutt either. She is a beautiful girl and obviously makes your heart happy.

A black Shih Tzu:










SOB


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Just curious why you even posted this thread when virtually everyone said no to docking, yet you did it anyway...


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Simple selfish pleasure to make one's pet more asthetically pleasing as well as a cry for attention maybe is my guess. Why not cosmetic surgery for dogs... it's all the rage.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Darkmoon said:


> No they do NOT allow Mix breeds.


Actually they do allow mixed breeds, on limited privileges, in the same way AKC does. They are allowed to compete in companion events and have to be speutered BEFORE they can be registered. UKC Limited Privilege Registration


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

animalcraker said:


> Actually they do allow mixed breeds, on limited privileges, in the same way AKC does. They are allowed to compete in companion events and have to be speutered BEFORE they can be registered. UKC Limited Privilege Registration


I meant is doesn't allow Mix breeds as in the way "ConKC" does and other fake clubs do.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Simple selfish pleasure to make one's pet more asthetically pleasing as well as a cry for attention maybe is my guess. Why not cosmetic surgery for dogs... it's all the rage.


There was no good reason to have those poor pup's tails docked!...Shame on the o.p.!


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

hulkamaniac said:


> Docking isn't done for aesthetic reasons though. Docking is done to keep the tail from being injured while the dog is working in the field. This is the reason some breed standards call for docking.


Hulk this is another reason I found to support docking not that it matters at this point...
Long haired, thick coated breeds like the Yorkshire Terrier and Old English Sheepdog are docked to avoid the hair around the base of the tail becoming fouled by faeces. Even with constant grooming and washing, such fouling is unpleasant. If allowed to get out of hand, it can lead to severe problems of hygiene, or even flystrike and subsequent infestation by maggots. 
Hygiene problems can be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether by docking. 


Good morning all!


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Hulk this is another reason I found to support docking not that it matters at this point...
> Long haired, thick coated breeds like the Yorkshire Terrier and Old English Sheepdog are docked to avoid the hair around the base of the tail becoming fouled by faeces. Even with constant grooming and washing, such fouling is unpleasant. If allowed to get out of hand, it can lead to severe problems of hygiene, or even flystrike and subsequent infestation by maggots.
> Hygiene problems can be greatly reduced or eliminated altogether by docking.


Oh bunk!...I have working Great Pyrenees...They have long lush tails & furry back ends...Keep them clean & brushed & this isn't an issue as it wouldn't have been with your companion pups.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm a little late, I guess..since docking's already done.

I agreed with everyone on WHEN to dock the tails, but I think, like the OP, I may have docked as well.. (only at 3 days old though) I hate messy tails, and that's just my opinion. Ultimately, they were her puppies and it was her decision whether or not to dock. Jumping down someone's throat for it, won't help at all.

So I'll just add, cute pups and cute momma! Hope puppyhood goes smoothly for you.


And one more add: OMG, what a beautiful black shih-tzu. I need to find me one of those. =]


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## BigLittleSmall (Sep 25, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> *I think a pretty good argument could be made for docking the tails of Great Danes*, and a few others. Not that I'd do it, but I could see why one might want to.


Amen lol .. that tail hurts! Especially when they walk by and warp you in the face lol


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

BigLittleSmall said:


> Amen lol .. that tail hurts! Especially when they walk by and warp you in the face lol


I believe that is a large part of why Rottweiler tails are docked as well. Yes, they might break when carting, they do get injured but a huge reason... They hurt like heck when they hit you in the knees. Much like a baseball bat. I love my docked tails in large heavy breeds. I don't really see the need in small dogs though. Maybe so you don't step on them?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> Oh bunk!...I have working Great Pyrenees...They have long lush tails & furry back ends...Keep them clean & brushed & this isn't an issue as it wouldn't have been with your companion pups.


Mhmm. All you have to do is groom and bathe them like you should be doing anyway, with an occasional groomers visit, and you shouldn't have such problems as "infestations".


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Sorry, I have to do a little more working than talking today we are moving buildings at work and its nuts...would rather spend all day chatting....

Yes I like the looks of short tails, My Mia's has an end of hair on the end that is priceless, let me tell you how it works, tugs at my heart... Mia lays on her back in my husbands arms for hours and my hubby twirls her tail end as we call it, this is their special time... Groomer knows that if they cut off dads twiirller they do not get paid, so this all does kind of go to a touchy feelly thing, do you all think I am wrong, maybe. Did I ask opinions...yes. Did I listen...yes... Did it make me think...yes.... Did I change my mind? No.... sorry...
Now one other reason...go look at my footstool as I call her.... she has a long tail.... she has very thick fur, we shave her naked in the summer as we say... But she can get very matted. She does get feces stuck in places if you do not keep her clean. Mia also has hair that will matt if not kept groomed but with her short tail I have never had a problem with it getting stuck in her tail area. Is it a fluke maybe? Don't know... see there are any reasons behind my decision. I really do like this forum and I will continue to return. I feel that there are lot of things that we can all share here....

Everyone have a great day and I will keep checking back in occasionally today as I am packing up my office for the big move! Oh and I will post a pic of Mia with long hair...Also on the question of if Mia has anthing else in her, I have no clue all I can go on is what I was told. I was mistaken and she is not registered. I will admit when I am wrong...she is a MUTT  so is Angel... No biggie!!! LOL The thing I did register for sure myself was the microchip...but I thought there was something else and there may be but I was in a hurry when I was looking as these are crazy days for me with getting a kid ready for prom this weekend also....


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Inga said:


> I believe that is a large part of why Rottweiler tails are docked as well. Yes, they might break when carting, they do get injured but a huge reason... They hurt like heck when they hit you in the knees. Much like a baseball bat. I love my docked tails in large heavy breeds. I don't really see the need in small dogs though. Maybe so you don't step on them?


I have a few health issues and try hard not to step on them I do pretty good most of the time...hopefully there never comes a time when I have to be wheelchair bound cause then I could have ran them over, I have Fibromyalia possible MS but let me tell you tehre are some days when these dogs are the only sunshine in my day!


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Mhmm. All you have to do is groom and bathe them like you should be doing anyway, with an occasional groomers visit, and you shouldn't have such problems as "infestations".


Exactly!...I mean who lets their dog get so bad it gets fly strike?


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Mhmm. All you have to do is groom and bathe them like you should be doing anyway, with an occasional groomers visit, and you shouldn't have such problems as "infestations".


So true DJ...sometimes with Angel though she seem s to get a little loose and it can be real bad....don't know if it is kust cause she is old or what but man.....lol never had and"infestation" though! Thank GOD!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> There was no good reason to have those poor pup's tails docked!...Shame on the o.p.!


Yes honey I totally agree... I guess there wasn't enough sarcasm in my post... I was trying to be nice (kinda).


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## pandora (Mar 19, 2010)

I love my dogs with tails....

I love to watch as my beagle gets a scent and his tail quivers, stiff with excitment, how it speards in a bristle when he spots next doors cat and how it thumps on the side of the chair when he wags in greeting my son..

I love to see my Border collie, he swims with his tail flat on the water like a rudder, how it tucks when he goes slinky slinky rounding up imaginary sheep and how magnifcent it looks, that great plume of white streaking after him when he runs..

I love little Remy's tail, which was so far between his legs when he came that it almost tickled his chin. he wags for other people now but for me there is that extra wag which is so big that his tail curls up in an arch over his bum...
I love the fact that now when he walks with us he holds his tail erect so proud of himself the little man..
I love watching him yawn and stretch which he does with a shudder that starts at his nose and ends with a wiggle on the tip of his tail..


I wouldnt want to see any of my dogs without this most expressive part of their body..


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Yes honey I totally agree... I guess there wasn't enough sarcasm in my post... I was trying to be nice (kinda).


There was plenty of sarcasm and disapproval but I am an adult and I am caring for my dogs and puppies....so I can just choose to take offence and get defenisve like yesterday or I can just let it roll of my back and try to make friends or I can leave...we will see how it plays out!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

BigLittleSmall said:


> Amen lol .. that tail hurts! Especially when they walk by and warp you in the face lol


Again tho those are selfish reasons that please the HUMAN and do nothing to help the dog as which tail docking was originally intended. The grooming reasons are total BS. My english shepherd Luna is like gypsies pyrs. fuzzy britches and ploom tail and has NEVER fouled her fur. Keeping it trimmed and brushed is what prevents foulding and flystrike not docking. That is just being lazy IMO and not doing what is needed to maintaint he dog in it's original state. 

As for docking the Dane's tail (or any other large breed for that matter) because he whips you with it or clears coffee tables is also a selfish self serving lazy reason that does nothing for the dog. Unless the dog is constantly breaking his tail open in wounds or damaging himself then there is no reason to dock... TRAIN!!! (OMG... ever heard of "watch your tail" all my long heavy tailed folks here know that one in the first 2 months). 

The original 2 reasons that tails were docked is as I previously stated... to prevent damage to actual working dogs, and 2... in the 16-17-18th century working dogs were not TAXED so their tails were docked to identify them as working dogs. 

To dock a puppy for any other reason than those 2 is just selfish and serves no point or benefit to the animal. Any time we start surgically altering our pups to make OUR lives easier (less mess, less bruises, looks tougher, less barking, what have you) we are crossing a dangerous line IMO. THAT is the point that the dog stops becoming an entity, a living being... and starts becoming the "fashion accessory" or object. Personally I will never endorse the objectifying of dogs.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

pandora said:


> I love my dogs with tails....
> 
> I love to watch as my beagle gets a scent and his tail quivers, stiff with excitment, how it speards in a bristle when he spots next doors cat and how it thumps on the side of the chair when he wags in greeting my son..
> 
> ...


Pandora....Mia's tail is not totally gone and she is still very expressive with what she does have ,you would be very suprised and yes I agree you can definely read them by their tails.....or their stubs in my case and I mean that in the kindest way!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> There was plenty of sarcasm and disapproval but I am an adult and I am caring for my dogs and puppies....so I can just choose to take offence and get defenisve like yesterday or I can just let it roll of my back and try to make friends or I can leave...we will see how it plays out!


I was speaking to gypsy in that reply. As far as the rest of that why does it have to be anything like that. I can be pissed at you for making a lousy decision IMo but it is ultimately YOUR decision, it isn't meant as insult, information (well sometimes it is) or otherwise really it is solely MY opinion. Taking offense letting it roll or leaving is... whatever really. Get beyond the emotion and look at things logically insted of emotionally and THEN you will learn that pets are more than an object that I can manipulate to make my life easier and more fufilled. They are living intelligent feeling beings that bond to you because you offer them companionship (not food as many people think) who have so much to offer if you just let them be a friggin dog, tails, claws and all... appreciate them for what they are, not what you can manipluate them to be thru surgery to make them more pleasing to YOUR eye. If you wanted a short tailed breed of dog there's plenty out there with out mutilating more. 

So just because I don't agree with you on this point doesn't mean I wouldn't be totally willing to offer help to you in another situation or on another post. If you let every little point of contention rule how you make friends here you won't enjoy the true experience of being a member of a forum. There's plenty here that I disagree with on a lot of things, but we also agree on many others. It's that give and take that bonds people and makes friendships. I always tell my clients if you can't take blunt direct constructive criticism then find another behaviorist. I'll be bturally honest, but it doesn't mean I don't like some one as a person.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

BigLittleSmall said:


> Amen lol .. that tail hurts! Especially when they walk by and warp you in the face lol


Sort of reminds me of why cats are declawed


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I was speaking to gypsy in that reply. As far as the rest of that why does it have to be anything like that. I can be pissed at you for making a lousy decision IMo but it is ultimately YOUR decision, it isn't meant as insult, information (well sometimes it is) or otherwise really it is solely MY opinion. Taking offense letting it roll or leaving is... whatever really. Get beyone the emotion and look at things logically insted of emotionally and THEN you will learn that pets are more than an object that I can manipulate (whetherit's thru surgery or training) to make my life easier and more fufilled. They are living intellignet feeling beings who have so much to offer if you just let them be a friggin dog, tails, claws and all... appreciate them for what they are, not what you can manipluate them to be thru surgery to make them more pleasing to YOUR eye. If you wanted a short tailed breed of dog there's plenty out there with out mutilating more.
> 
> So just because I don't agree with you on this point doesn't mean I wouldn't be totally willing to offer help to you in another situation or on another post. If you let every little point of contention rule how you make friends here you won't enjoy the true experience of being a member of a forum. There's plenty here that I disagree with on a lot of things, but we also agree on many others. It's that give and take that bonds people and makes friendships. I always tell my clients if you can't take blunt direct constructive criticism then find another behaviorest. I'll be bturally honest, but it doesn't mean I don't like some one as a person.



Hey Dog Shrink I can work with all that!!!! Not a problem for me!!!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Re: Docking tails for grooming

First off, other than the base of the tail I cannot imagine how a long poofy tail gets covered in feces if the dog is otherwise receiving normal care. I will concede that the base of the tail might, as well as the poofy butt fur, but both of those are left alone in a docked breed. But brushing your dog and keeping him free of mats is part of basic dog care. 

Second, feed a better food. If your dog is passing soft gooey stools that are getting matted into their fur, either it's time for a vet visit or time to try a different food.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Just wanted to add in something more about Mia's coat.

Shih Tzus in the show ring always have a straight coat - because that is the ideal. Some have wave in their coat, and then it is blow dried. Those involved in the show world breed away from wavy coats, but there are many, many Shih Tzus bred with wave in their coat. That wave accentuates when they are clipped instead of brushed and blow dried straight.

Even when blow dried the wavier clipped coats can be recognized as they tend to stand off the body more than the straighter ones. These are all Shih Tzus.

Before groom:









After groom


















Another younger pup with wavier coat.









The silvering in Mia's coat could come from either the Maltese or the Shih Tzu breed.

To add one more about color, I see at least one of the pups is a black and tan. It did not take Mia's dominant black coat color, but displays the most recessive of all colors that a dog with dominant 'E' on the extension locus can offer (black/tan) in this mix. This means Mia very likely carries the recessive 'e' on the extension locus, (as a Maltese parented dog would) with the black/tan coloring coming in to the pups possibly from the sire to this litter.

Jodi, I obviously love the study of canine coats - textures and colors. It is always interesting to analyze the outcome of mixbred litters - as they often offer a lot more variation than purebred litters. I am curious as to what the color of the sire to this litter was (and breed or type) if you'd like to offer?

SOB


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> There was plenty of sarcasm and disapproval but *I am an adult and I am caring for my dogs and puppies*....so I can just choose to take offence and get defenisve like yesterday or I can just let it roll of my back and try to make friends or I can leave...we will see how it plays out!


This is the statement that irritates a lot of people. You claim you are caring for you dogs yet you completely reject out of hand any and all advice that is given to you regardless of how good that advice is.

For example, if you had asked people on here ahead of time if you should breed your dog, 99% of the people here would've told you not to do it. A mixed breed dog should never be bred for any reason and "she has a good temperament" is not a good reason to breed *any* dog. There are tons of purebred dogs out there who should never be bred. Zero is a purebred cocker spaniel. He's got an awesome temperament. Everyone loves him. He attracts women. He should never be bred because he's much smaller than the breed standard. However, I suspect that you would've bred her anyway.

Why? Because you came on here asking about docking tails. There are 3-4 pages of replies where people not only told you you shouldn't dock the tails, but they gave you great reasons why you shouldn't. Yet you ignored all of these posts and did it anyway. This is why it's frustrating. You claim that you care about your dogs yet when people tell you what you're doing is bad for your dogs you completely ignore them.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

hulkamaniac said:


> Why? Because you came on here asking about docking tails. There are 3-4 pages of replies where people not only told you you shouldn't dock the tails, but they gave you great reasons why you shouldn't. Yet you ignored all of these posts and did it anyway. This is why it's frustrating. You claim that you care about your dogs yet when people tell you what you're doing is bad for your dogs you completely ignore them.


Yep, and I think my question got lost in a bunch of posts. Are you SURE that Mia is a Maltese Shih Tzu mix? In her puppy picture she could almost pass for a Poodle. I've seen a lot of Shih Tzu puppies and none were that curly.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Compare the picture of an average Shih Tzu puppy to Mia's puppy picture:



















There is a huge difference. Also, if she was a Maltese/Shih Tzu mix they wouldn't have docked her tail- only a Poodle mix puppy's tail and at that time, your puppy looked mostly Poodle. Now that she's grown you can definitely see the Shih Tzu. You got her from a pet store that was selling "designer" mixes. I wouldn't exactly take their word for her breed.

Also, this may have been mentioned, but who is the father of these puppies?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Not to mention that I have never seen a shih tzu or matese pup that was 1.9-ish pounds at 9 weeks. The only thing I've seen that small at that age is toy poodles.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

luvntzus said:


> Also, if she was a Maltese/Shih Tzu mix they wouldn't have docked her tail- only a Poodle mix puppy's tail and at that time, your puppy looked mostly Poodle. Now that she's grown you can definitely see the Shih Tzu. You got her from a pet store that was selling "designer" mixes. I wouldn't exactly take their word for her breed.


I tend to agree, luvntzus. I just want to point out that absolute conclusions cannot be drawn by looking at the coat color and texture that Mia displays.

Once breeds are mixed, what breed adds what to the features can be impossible to figure. With the Maltese having a narrower head and a very long narrow muzzle, as does the Poodle, and some Shih Tzus having a wavier coat, you just can't say for sure by looking at those traits.

The docked tail and wavier coat, in my mind, are more likely due to a Poodle influence somewhere behind . . . but there is no "definate" to be had here.

Dog-shrink, aren't Maltese dogs smaller than Toy Poodles when full grown?

SOB


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Maltese standard
Size 
Weight under 7 pounds, with from 4 to 6 pounds preferred. Overall quality is to be favored over size.

Toy Poodle
Height: up to 10 inches (25.4 cm.)
Weight: 6-9 pounds (3-4 kg.)

The sizes of the official AKC recognized Poodle breeds are determined by height, not by the weight. The Toy Poodle is 10 inches or under at the highest point of the shoulders. Any Poodle which is more than 10 inches at the highest point of the shoulders cannot compete in the AKC show ring as a Toy Poodle.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I don't think they would have docked the tail unless she was a Poodle Mix. And that is done when the puppies are only a couple of days old. Between then and the puppy for sale at the vet store, there could have been lots of breakdown of communication and voila- she's a Maltese/Shih Tzu mix.

I don't think most of those places even know what mixes they are. I've seen footage of a group of dogs of different breeds kept together- one male and a bunch of females.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Yup, and I have been to commercial breeding operations where they have two different studs in with the females, and not necessarily of the same breed, so the breeders don't even know which the sire is. Saw one litter advertised that had photos of parti-sable AKC registered Cavalier puppies (impossible in the breed). When I questionned the breeders they also bred Papillons . . . . we know exactly which breed the sire to that parti-sable litter was. They sold them as full Cavaliers with AKC registration anyway!

SOB


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> Yup, and I have been to commercial breeding operations where they have two different studs in with the females, and not necessarily of the same breed, so the breeders don't even know which the sire is. Saw one litter advertised that had photos of parti-sable AKC registered Cavalier puppies (impossible in the breed). When I questionned the breeders they also bred Papillons . . . . we know exactly which breed the sire to that parti-sable litter was. They sold them as full Cavaliers with AKC registration anyway!
> 
> SOB


Ughhhh *head in hands* that's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> As for docking the Dane's tail (or any other large breed for that matter) because he whips you with it or clears coffee tables is also a selfish self serving lazy reason that does nothing for the dog. Unless the dog is constantly breaking his tail open in wounds or damaging himself then there is no reason to dock... TRAIN!!! (OMG... ever heard of "watch your tail" all my long heavy tailed folks here know that one in the first 2 months).


The only problem with that is that tail docking has to be done within a few days of birth, so there's no way to know if the dog will break its whip tail in the future. I prefer undocked tails, myself (with a few exceptions; I like Doberman and Rottie tails docked, for example), but I really wish that one of the pits I know had hers docked, because she is always leaving blood spots on the walls from whacking her tail on them.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Just going on what all the records I have say that Mia is. I guess if dishonest people told me the wrong thing then so be it. I still think she is adorable! LOL 
I did just post a bunch of pic so everyone can see the many "faces" of Mia. She can look like so many different types of dog. Maybe she really is a "Heinz 57 Sauce Dog".

Enjoy...

Back to packing! Uggggg


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> Just going on what all the records I have say that Mia is. I guess if dishonest people told me the wrong thing then so be it. I still think she is adorable! LOL
> I did just post a bunch of pic so everyone can see the many "faces" of Mia. She can look like so many different types of dog. Maybe she really is a "Heinz 57 Sauce Dog".
> 
> Enjoy...
> ...


I hope that you don't misunderstand my posts. I tend to post in a blunt manner. 

I happen to very much favor Heinz 57 dogs myself.

How are the two little ones doing?

SOB


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

I didn't take that in a bad way I would love to know what she really is...I wish there was a test so we could know. Not that it would matter, I would never lover her any less....It just cracks me up if you look at the pics she always looks so different. There could be any and every breed in her....

The pups are doing great. I weight them on my weight watchers scale every day and they started at 5 oz and yesterday one was 8 and the other was almost 9 oz so they are really growing. I will weight them again when I get home. I try to do it at the same time every day. I try to keep the traffic down in my house but with 2 teen age boys at home that is sometimes hard. Grandma that is Pepe's owner is really biting at the bit to come see them but I keep telling her she has to wait so Momma Mia doesn't freak out! But otherwise this is all a learning experience for me and I am loving every minute of it!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> The pups are doing great. I weight them on my weight watchers scale every day and they started at 5 oz and yesterday one was 8 and the other was almost 9 oz so they are really growing.


Oh they are little gobblers then. Good to read they are gaining so well. Have you thought about how to transition them to mush and then kibble in a few weeks? Feel free to ask if you need tips. I've only ever raised a foster litter on my own, but I helped with 5 little terrier litters with a mentor at one point, and as a child (too long ago) helped Mom with hers.

Hope you post lots of pics . . . . I luuuuuuuuuuv puppy pics and need a fix.

If you do get a chance I'd love to see photos of the sire too (Pepe?). It was great to see all those views of Mia. 

SOB


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I've asked several times now, but maybe it was mentioned in the forum and I missed it. Who is the father of Mia's puppies?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Pepe is the father; she said early on in the thread that he's a yorkie/poodle mix. 



Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> I didn't take that in a bad way I would love to know what she really is...I wish there was a test so we could know.


There actually are doggie DNA tests! I believe they cost around $40. Some posters here have gotten them done. You can ask your vet about them or look them up online.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> Pepe is the father; she said early on in the thread that he's a yorkie/poodle mix.


I guess the docking more sense, because IMO, the puppies are probably 1/2 Poodle.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Pepe is my mother in laws yorkie poo... ***hiding* please don't yell at me again ****for mixing**** 

I am posting a pic of Pepe and Mia from Xmas of 08 when we first got Mia.


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

I will try to get some more pics of Pepe but Mia and Pepe's fur is nothing a like Mia has really soft fur and Pepe has really course curlly hair where Mia's is wavy pepe has CURLY hair...but I am assuming it will change but the puppies have staright hair, fur, hair ...whatever....LOL it has been a long day. Not I get to go pick up my son's Tux for prom and order flowers. I will try to get on when I get home! If not good night all!

Sorry for any spelling errors or typos but I am exhausted!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> I will try to get some more pics of Pepe but Mia and Pepe's fur is nothing a like Mia has really soft fur and Pepe has really course curlly hair where Mia's is wavy pepe has CURLY hair...but I am assuming it will change but the puppies have staright hair, fur, hair ...whatever....LOL it has been a long day. Not I get to go pick up my son's Tux for prom and order flowers. I will try to get on when I get home! If not good night all!
> 
> Sorry for any spelling errors or typos but I am exhausted!


Guh. Your son's lucky to have such a great mom. I've had to pay for all of my stuff; dress, boutineer, shoes, jewelry, etc, and order both the boutineer and corsage and I've had to do all of the scheduling, ordering and tailoring of my boyfriend's tux and shoes. I hope your son appreciates all you're doing for him.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Jodi Mia's Slave said:


> I will try to get some more pics of Pepe but Mia and Pepe's fur is nothing a like Mia has really soft fur and Pepe has really course curlly hair where Mia's is wavy pepe has CURLY hair...but I am assuming it will change but the puppies have staright hair, fur, hair


It's very common for mixes of the same breeds to look really different and have different coat textures. 

I wasn't commenting on your breeding a mix, I'm just saying that IMO Mia is probably a Shih Tzu/Poodle mix and the dad is a Yorkie/Poodle mix... so that would make these puppies half Poodle, unless my math is terribly wrong and that could be the case. lol But really, with all those breeds, it's anybody's guess what they will end up looking like. I'm sure they're adorable and I would love to see pics!


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

Hey Luv I wasn't taking offense...I am very curious myself. I am also curious to see how the puppies look, Ilike I haver said before I have never done the puppy thing. Well, I guess I did when I was little but don't remember much about it! Right now they have really straight fur. I am assumming that will change as they grow and develop. I hope to get a little time this weekend to go to Barnes and Noble and buy a book, it is so much easier than always looking info up on the internet. Anyone have any recommendations?

BTW...I will keep post pics! They are getting to be little chunkers...


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Guh. Your son's lucky to have such a great mom. I've had to pay for all of my stuff; dress, boutineer, shoes, jewelry, etc, and order both the boutineer and corsage and I've had to do all of the scheduling, ordering and tailoring of my boyfriend's tux and shoes. I hope your son appreciates all you're doing for him.



Thanks, I try. I am very lucky to have 2 really good kids. I like to do for them becuase they really do not ask for much. Also my husband runs 2 companys, one is a construction company (they do remodels) and the other is vinyl graphics company. Both boys work very hard for him and they get paid but they work lots of long sometimes odd hours so prom and other things is part of our way of repaying them.....Also my husband drives a race car and my oldest is his right hand and crew chief. Oldest is the one that is going to prom...With racing season just starting here in Iowa...kid needs a breather!


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

BTW DJ...Tux is picked up, flowers are ordered I a getting closer to being able to just sit back and just enjoy seeing my oldest son at his first prom and just taking pictures and being proud. Although I am sure there will be a few tears because he is growing up so fast......

Wish pups were a little older., how cute of a pic would it be for a 220# 6' guy laying with 9oz puppies crawling on him...lol. He asked me the other day if it was really sad when a big guy loses his heart so fast to two such little things. I told him, "Nope, just means your mama raised you right...."


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

How old are the puppies now? I haven't seen any pictures- did I miss them? There's nothing more that I love than baby puppies!


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## Jodi Mia's Slave (Apr 6, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> How old are the puppies now? I haven't seen any pictures- did I miss them? There's nothing more that I love than baby puppies!


Puppies are in their 6th day today... I haven't posted any new pics. I will try to get some tonight! I am getting ready to take down my work computer so I'm off here until tonight! Back to moving this work office!


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## BigLittleSmall (Sep 25, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> The only problem with that is that tail docking has to be done within a few days of birth, so there's no way to know if the dog will break its whip tail in the future. I prefer undocked tails, myself (with a few exceptions; I like Doberman and Rottie tails docked, for example), but I really wish that one of the pits I know had hers docked, because she is always leaving blood spots on the walls from whacking her tail on them.


Exactly, my Dane puppy has already hurt his on his crate (I think it went between the rungs and he jerked it out .. he's can be a tad clumsy at times; because he doesn't pay attention). 

The fact that he warps me with it as he walks by, well .. sometimes it's more like bouncing by, is actually rather funny (especially when he gets my BF), but I bet it is going to be more painful once he gets older lol.

I wouldn't ever have his tail amputated because of it or anything (which is what it would be at this point); unless he broke it on his crate.

He also steps & sits on our feet; which, at just 70lbs, is waaaaay more painful than the tail whip .. so it's just something we're gonna have to get used to I guess, or buy some steel toe houseshoes to wear around the house lol.


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