# Would you ever buy a runt?



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I'm just really stuck in this dilemma right and and need you experienced people's input badly. So hang in there and please read the novel I'm about to write!

As some of you may know, I've been searching for a 2nd dog for a while now, and I set my mind on getting a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel (remember those health threads I posted?). Well, about 7 months ago I found a great Cavalier breeder whose lines I could trace back and found that they're Australian lines (very reputable ones), all of whom were health tested (MVD and SM).

The breeder has got this current litter (they are 11 weeks old now), and 3 have been spoken for already. The two left are the breeder's pick of the litter (a really beautiful Blenheim girl with the spot), and the runt. The breeder was initially going to keep his pick of the litter, but is plans have changed and he's now going to be focusing on raising a UK import puppy instead for showing.

So basically, I have two choices... take the show quality puppy for its full show price, spay her, and never show her (I don't plan on showing or breeding)... or take the runt. I've decided it doesn't make sense to buy a show quality puppy for an exorbitant price and then just never show her, so I was going to pass on this litter, but here's my dilemma:

The breeder has offered the runt puppy to me because he knows that I've got quite a lot more experience with dogs and training etc. than the average Malaysian (who usually buys a puppy from the petstore and then shut it up in a cage for its whole life), and he thinks that I would take good care of her. His entire family has fallen in love with this puppy because I have to say, she is REALLY sweet. So they were planning to keep her; but since I've been in contact with them for so long and they trust me, they think that I would be able to care for her better than someone who they don't know well. The pup played with Cadence and I for over an hour and honestly, aside from her tiny size, she seems completely healthy. She was chasing Cadence (who is at least 4x her size) around the house!

Here's what the breeder has offered:
- I can bring this puppy to my vet and let him check her over, do tests, etc. to make sure she's healthy
- Lifetime guarantee depending on the illness (he's of course not going to cover anything if any of her injuries are mistakes on my part) like seizures, genetic problems, etc. as long as I keep in touch with them.
- She will cost me a fraction of the price of what Cavalier puppies usually go for.

I should have taken pictures of her, but I didn't bring my camera unfortunately. She's 11 weeks old and weighs about 2lbs. By contrast, her littermate (the pick of the litter) is double her size and weight. Her gait seems fine and she is eating normally. She plays and runs like the other puppies and seems even more daring and curious than the others.

According to the breeder, when she was born, she was the same size as her littermates, but she's just growing a lot more slowly than the others.

I have no idea what this could mean and because I've NEVER whelped any puppies in my life, I'm hoping that some of you could shed some light on this situation.

The breeder will have another litter coming in September, and I'm really in no hurry, so I don't mind waiting... but I've just kind of fallen in love with this little runt's spunk. She's also a very pretty Cavalier (nice head) aside from her tiny size. Also, I feel sorry for her because every prospective buyer who's met her has passed on her because of her size. If nobody else wants her, she'll have to live with the breeder who, well.. let's face it.. probably won't have as much time for her since he'll be focusing on his showdogs.

Okay, any advice? I'm sorry this has been so long. Is this a huge no-no, or would you risk buying a runt?


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

What is your main concern? I've always equated runt with the smallest dog or the most timid etc. I don't normally equate it with health issues though that could be there. I mean if you like the pup and you're not going to show- sounds win win to me to save some extra cash? I know runts tend to become normal size or some even outgrow their litter mates.

Apparently this guy was a runt: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-Great-Dane--whos-terrified-chihuahuas.html


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Well, health, definitely... I mean, Cavaliers are already notoriously unhealthy, so I don't know if I'm making a really bad investment by buying a runt. Btw, is an animal still called a runt if they weren't born the smallest but then grew a lot more slowly than the others? I'm just afraid that once I bring her home, she'll start getting sick and having health problems (I dunno, seizures, etc?) and by then it'll be too hard for me to give her up already! Lol.

The breeder thinks that she will be a lot smaller as an adult, maybe 6-8lbs as opposed to the usual 10-18.

And.. HOLY COW that dog is huge!!!


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

I think it'd be really hard to tell unless she is seemingly sick now. Especially for a condition like syringomyelia which probably would not show signs until later in it's life. Also if the runt has that issue there is a chance the other pups in the litter would also have the issue. IMO probably the best indicator of possible long-term health is the general health of bitch/stud.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I agree... I think it's gonna be one of those things where I won't know until several months/years down the road.

For what it's worth, her grandparents (I think I've seen 2 of the results) were tested for SM and MVD at age 5 and were clear. That's why I went with this breeder.

I met the sire today, he and Cadence got along very well. Lol. He's only 3 though, so still too early to know if he will have MVD or SM in the future (he's the one whose parents were MVD/SM clear at age 5). Also, he had a generally nice temperament. Pretty laid back and calm.


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## lisaj1354 (Feb 23, 2008)

I'd absolutely buy the runt. My "heart dog" was a runt and lived to be 17 years old!


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Wow, that is an amazing age, even for non-runts! 

Anyhow, I managed to screenshot some pictures of the puppy from a video the breeder uploaded (Sorry about the crappy quality!):









She's the one in the middle, on top.









Look at that face!









Size comparison. That's her littermate beside her.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

lucidity said:


> Wow, that is an amazing age, even for non-runts!
> 
> Anyhow, I managed to screenshot some pictures of the puppy from a video the breeder uploaded (Sorry about the crappy quality!):
> 
> ...


She's adorable. Though she looks small, she doesn't appear to be unhealthily "tiny" to me. Just a bit of a runt  
I wouldn't buy a runt if the breeder was advertising the runt as "a rare teacup size CKCS, only $500 more than her littermates", kwim? One of my customers has a runt-sized CKCS, she was an TEENY baby, and as an adult she's petite and small, but not sickly-small. 
The breeder sounds like a good one, and I would personally be flattered if they chose me as a home for a pup they were in love with but decided not to keep because of my knowledge. I'm an enabler. I say go for it :rockon:


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

There's a fairly recent thread around here about runts that kind of drifted into a discussion of just what a runt is. If you define a runt as the smallest but otherwise healthy puppy in a litter -- not only WOULD I absolutely buy one, technically I DID! Squash was the runt of his litter as defined this way, as he was the smallest at birth.

If you define a runt as an unhealthy or sickly puppy, then no I wouldn't buy a runt.


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

If the runt pulled at your heart, that is where I would look, not the littermate. If you are not showing & heath is tested then she just needs someone to love.


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

I would. Maggie is the runt. She still is too! 67 pounds and her brothers and sisters are at least 75.


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## filas (Jun 18, 2011)

If the pup is healthy then it matters not if it is the runt or not...From my experience runts always catch up to their litter mates. Get the lil one you will be happy and after a month you couldnt imagine having picked a bigger sibling.


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## FrabjousDay (Jun 19, 2011)

Yep! I have no plans to ever show or breed, so a healthy but petite puppy poses no problem for me.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

I've had two runts as family dogs, and they were both great dogs with little health issues. Granted, they were mixed breeds and we adopted them from the shelter.

I would be wary if the breeder is charging you less for the runt (why less for an equally good dog??), and offering her to you because she thinks you're experienced & good with dogs, etc -- that seems to me like giving you a crap dog for a discount. If I were so invested in a getting a certain dog of a certain breed, I'd want the best of the best.

I don't know anything about the correct weight for a puppy of that breed for that age - but 2lbs is a very, very small dog! With a situation like this, where you're obviously so invested, you don't want a dog that hasn't possibly had adequate nutrition for the most important time of its life.


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

I'd have no hesitation on getting her honestly. I use to own Cavaliers, loved them, spent alot of time and money researching breeders and trying to get a healthy one, lost one to cardiac problems at 4 years old, the other to SM. Sadly, this is one breed that as you sound well aware of, does have alot of health issues. That said - I did show, and got show dogs. Neither turned out as show dogs, and the breeder's contracts only went to 3 years old, so I was out alot of money in vet bills on both. Where this breeder is willing to cover health issues for the entire life of the dog, you have nothing to loose, but I'd ask them if by "covering" you'd have to return the puppy, or if they'd help with vet bills from any genetic problems that come up regardless. I couldn't return a dog I'd brought into my home and fallen in love with either!!!



OliveSheprador said:


> I've had two runts as family dogs, and they were both great dogs with little health issues. Granted, they were mixed breeds and we adopted them from the shelter.
> 
> I would be wary if the breeder is charging you less for the runt (why less for an equally good dog??), and offering her to you because she thinks you're experienced & good with dogs, etc -- that seems to me like giving you a crap dog for a discount. If I were so invested in a getting a certain dog of a certain breed, I'd want the best of the best.
> 
> I don't know anything about the correct weight for a puppy of that breed for that age - but 2lbs is a very, very small dog! You don't want a dog that hasn't had adequate nutrition for the most important time of its life.


As a show breeder, I'd disagree with that, especially since she mentioned the breeder is willing to cover any genetic health problems for the entire life of the dog as long as she keeps in contact. I often lower my prices for people I know well, or have been in contact with me for a long time, and I have a dog that I know is nothing but a pet and all I really want is someone that'll love and spoil it! That said, I wouldn't offer just anyone a discount on a puppy, and NOBODY gets a puppy from me until it's spayed/neutered and I've had several interviews, and done a really detailed check on the person, I want to know where my babies are going and feel confident the people taking them will keep in touch! If someone has been really good to stay in touch long before I even have bred my bitch, or whelped the litter, I'm much more likely to offer them a lower price then I'd offer the average person, especially on a pet quality dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Not to rain on this parade.... But..... Something you related from the breeder caught my eye.... This pup was the same size at the others at birth but is growing more slowly. 

If it was me, I would have a concern about Liver Shunt. Slowed growth in puppies is a symptom and a quick google search shows it occurs in the breed.


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

filas said:


> If the pup is healthy then it matters not if it is the runt or not...From my experience runts always catch up to their litter mates. Get the lil one you will be happy and after a month you couldnt imagine having picked a bigger sibling.


 I agree!!


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kennedy, my roommate's cavalier, was and still is a runt. At three years old she still has no heart murmur. That's all I know as far as the typical cav issues. She's on a great diet and we keep her very active. Because of that she can run circles around every other cav we know even though her original owners bought her from a crappy Missouri puppy mill.

However, I'm inclined to trust JB's opinion. Can you have the vet check her liver before agreeing to take her?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

lucidity said:


> *According to the breeder, when she was born, she was the same size as her littermates, but she's just growing a lot more slowly than the others.*
> 
> I have no idea what this could mean and because I've NEVER whelped any puppies in my life, I'm hoping that some of you could shed some light on this situation.


In the usual breeders sense of the word a runt is a puppy that is born significantly smaller than the other pups. Many times runts will catch up and be a normal sized adult..... 

But that does not seem to be the case here..... This put is falling behind, not catching up. There is a reason for that. Could be a lot of reasons. Some serious. Some not.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I would definitely have the Vet check him out. JohnnyBandit mentioned: Liver Shunt. Check that also.

While you're talking to the Vet consider that a 'runt' may just be one of the last puppies that was conceived. The pups were small, so a small difference in weight, may not have been noticeable. But I agree with most, that a well-fed runt that's healthy should grow up just fine.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'd get her vet-checked first (which the breeder said you could do) and if everything comes up fine there, I'd take her. Yes, she could develop problems in the future, but so could any cavalier (or any dog). It's responsible and commendable of the breeder to offer you a lifetime health guarantee on this pup.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

First off, thanks everyone for your 2 cents! I've read every single one of your responses and have taken them into account.



igmomma said:


> I'd have no hesitation on getting her honestly. I use to own Cavaliers, loved them, spent alot of time and money researching breeders and trying to get a healthy one, lost one to cardiac problems at 4 years old, the other to SM. Sadly, this is one breed that as you sound well aware of, does have alot of health issues. That said - I did show, and got show dogs. Neither turned out as show dogs, and the breeder's contracts only went to 3 years old, so I was out alot of money in vet bills on both. Where this breeder is willing to cover health issues for the entire life of the dog, you have nothing to loose, but I'd ask them if by "covering" you'd have to return the puppy, or if they'd help with vet bills from any genetic problems that come up regardless. I couldn't return a dog I'd brought into my home and fallen in love with either!!!
> 
> 
> As a show breeder, I'd disagree with that, especially since she mentioned the breeder is willing to cover any genetic health problems for the entire life of the dog as long as she keeps in contact. I often lower my prices for people I know well, or have been in contact with me for a long time, and I have a dog that I know is nothing but a pet and all I really want is someone that'll love and spoil it! That said, I wouldn't offer just anyone a discount on a puppy, and NOBODY gets a puppy from me until it's spayed/neutered and I've had several interviews, and done a really detailed check on the person, I want to know where my babies are going and feel confident the people taking them will keep in touch! If someone has been really good to stay in touch long before I even have bred my bitch, or whelped the litter, I'm much more likely to offer them a lower price then I'd offer the average person, especially on a pet quality dog.


I completely agree with your assessment. I didn't know that you used to breed Cavs! Would you be OK if I PM-ed you about any questions I might have? 

Well, the breeder said that depending on the illness, he will either be willing to take the pup back, help out with bills, or replace her with a new pup. I guess it all depends on what illness she ends up getting (or not getting!). 



JohnnyBandit said:


> In the usual breeders sense of the word a runt is a puppy that is born significantly smaller than the other pups. Many times runts will catch up and be a normal sized adult.....
> 
> But that does not seem to be the case here..... This put is falling behind, not catching up. There is a reason for that. Could be a lot of reasons. Some serious. Some not.


You've hit the nail on the head. This is my main concern, the fact that she was born about the same size as her littermates but didn't grow as well. It could be something as simple as not getting enough food to something serious like a liver shunt or heart problems, etc. I actually did do some research on liver shunts but none of the websites mentioned anything ahout shunts in Cavaliers. 

If I were to take this pup, i'll be telling the breeder that I want to bring her home to see my own vet (because the breeder's vet checked her over and couldn't find anything wrong with her except for the fact that she's really small and skinny) first before making my final decision. I'll ask the vet to run blood tests, and check her heart etc. Anything else i should be looking out for?

I am still feeling rather apprehensive. I am terrified of ending up with a sick puppy, or a healthy puppy who will grow up to become a sick dog. I'm just worried that even if the vet gives her a clean bill of health, she might have some underlying problem that will show up when she's older.

In any case, I am completely willing to wait till the end of the year for a puppy... But i just feel so sorry for this little girl because she might end up not having a good home.


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

lucidity said:


> First off, thanks everyone for your 2 cents! I've read every single one of your responses and have taken them into account.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree with your assessment. I didn't know that you used to breed Cavs! Would you be OK if I PM-ed you about any questions I might have?


Absolutely! Or I can PM you my private e-mail, I've never bred cavaliers, I've owned, shown, raised, and loved them, co-bred and helped raise a couple litters a good show friend of mine has raised, but never bred them myself, however I do know alot about it, and alot about the breed, and I have also done alot of rescue, and I still show, rescue, and very occasionally breed Italian Greyhounds. I'm always happy to help in any way I can!!!

As for having her checked out, very good plan! As for exactly what - Having the heart checked out of course is a big deal with cavaliers, as they are prone to mitro valve disease among other heart problems. Basic blood work is a good start, but you may also want to talk to your vet about doing a fasting bile acid test, much more specific for liver problems. What they do with that is they'll have you fast the puppy for about 12 hrs. They'll draw blood, feed the puppy a high fat, high protein meal, and then take the blood again in about 2 hours. What they want to see is the levels about the same or only slightly elevated. If the bile acid levels are still very elevated 2 hrs post meal, that can indicate a problem with the liver, such as a liver shunt, and most likely ultrasounds and/or other diagnostic tests will be recommended. They can also do a urine bile acid that they say is not quite as accurate, but is more specific, but not sure of those will both be available to you or not. Liver shunts aren't real common in cavaliers, but they do occur, as they do with pretty much all breeds. Most liver shunt puppies are failure to thrive puppies, and are clearly not doing as well especially if the shunt is responsible for her small size. I can tell you from the experience I've had breeding, showing, raising, and helping my friends with their dogs, it's not uncommon for an occasional small puppy to show up in any litter of any breed, and the dog is absolutely healthy. I know with my Italian Greyhounds it's often hard to tell who's going to be small and large until they're at least 2-3 months old. My last litter (I don't breed much - This litter was born 3 years ago!) the largest puppy turned out to be very petite, maturing at a very dainty and elegant 10 lbs. The smallest puppy in the litter at birth was almost half the size of the largest puppy - He went over the breed standard, and matured at 17"! A very big Italian Greyhound! So it all just depends, but I agree that having basic blood work and possibly a bile acid test to rule out anything else, and see if your vet suggests any further testing from there. Kudos to you for being on top of it, it's always good to know what you're getting into, but I'd say the chances are pretty good that she's a perfectly healthy, happy, but petite little Cavalier girl!


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> She's adorable. Though she looks small, she doesn't appear to be unhealthily "tiny" to me. Just a bit of a runt
> I wouldn't buy a runt if the breeder was advertising the runt as "a rare teacup size CKCS, only $500 more than her littermates", kwim? One of my customers has a runt-sized CKCS, she was an TEENY baby, and as an adult she's petite and small, but not sickly-small.
> The breeder sounds like a good one, and I would personally be flattered if they chose me as a home for a pup they were in love with but decided not to keep because of my knowledge. I'm an enabler. I say go for it :rockon:


Your reply made me LOL! I've realized that everybody on this forum is an enabler  Actually, all of my friends are too. Each and every one of them has said "Go for it!!" without hesitation. Btw, you're right. She doesn't look sickly or anything, just small and skinny. She makes Cadence look like a giant when she stands next to him, LOL.


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

I'm a terrible enabler LOL Just look at me - 5 dogs, 5 cats, and thankfully a nice big house and large yard to keep them all happy LOL Only reason I have a California King bed is so the dogs have enough room on the bed! It's always good to be cautious even with good breeders, but it sure doesn't sound like this breeder is trying to hide anything!


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

igmomma said:


> Absolutely! Or I can PM you my private e-mail, I've never bred cavaliers, I've owned, shown, raised, and loved them, co-bred and helped raise a couple litters a good show friend of mine has raised, but never bred them myself, however I do know alot about it, and alot about the breed, and I have also done alot of rescue, and I still show, rescue, and very occasionally breed Italian Greyhounds. I'm always happy to help in any way I can!!!
> 
> As for having her checked out, very good plan! As for exactly what - Having the heart checked out of course is a big deal with cavaliers, as they are prone to mitro valve disease among other heart problems. Basic blood work is a good start, but you may also want to talk to your vet about doing a fasting bile acid test, much more specific for liver problems. What they do with that is they'll have you fast the puppy for about 12 hrs. They'll draw blood, feed the puppy a high fat, high protein meal, and then take the blood again in about 2 hours. What they want to see is the levels about the same or only slightly elevated. If the bile acid levels are still very elevated 2 hrs post meal, that can indicate a problem with the liver, such as a liver shunt, and most likely ultrasounds and/or other diagnostic tests will be recommended. They can also do a urine bile acid that they say is not quite as accurate, but is more specific, but not sure of those will both be available to you or not. Liver shunts aren't real common in cavaliers, but they do occur, as they do with pretty much all breeds. Most liver shunt puppies are failure to thrive puppies, and are clearly not doing as well especially if the shunt is responsible for her small size. I can tell you from the experience I've had breeding, showing, raising, and helping my friends with their dogs, it's not uncommon for an occasional small puppy to show up in any litter of any breed, and the dog is absolutely healthy. I know with my Italian Greyhounds it's often hard to tell who's going to be small and large until they're at least 2-3 months old. My last litter (I don't breed much - This litter was born 3 years ago!) the largest puppy turned out to be very petite, maturing at a very dainty and elegant 10 lbs. The smallest puppy in the litter at birth was almost half the size of the largest puppy - He went over the breed standard, and matured at 17"! A very big Italian Greyhound! So it all just depends, but I agree that having basic blood work and possibly a bile acid test to rule out anything else, and see if your vet suggests any further testing from there. Kudos to you for being on top of it, it's always good to know what you're getting into, but I'd say the chances are pretty good that she's a perfectly healthy, happy, but petite little Cavalier girl!


If you could PM me your email address that would be great! Thanks  Hmm.. I'll ask the vet if he'll be able to do an acid bile test. I am not looking forward to having to get him to draw blood from such a tiny puppy. Eeeks. I see what you mean about not knowing who will be small and who will be big till the pups are a bit older. 

I actually got my calculations wrong, though! The puppies are 13 weeks old already, not 11. They were born on April 27th. I'm just worried because the breeder admitted that he's never had a puppy turn out like her... as in, normal sized at birth but then lagging so far behind at this age.

By 13 weeks was your petite IG puppy that much smaller than her large littermate?

Also, I forgot to mention... but the size of this puppy is a bit scary to me, lol. Cadence was already 4lbs when I got him at 11 weeks old and he is pretty big for a Papillon. He can get pretty rough while playing and he doesn't really realize that he's so much bigger (although he is only 9lbs, lol). I've had experience fostering tiny kittens with him, and yes he bugged them but you know cats... they're so much better at defending themselves (hissing, spitting, etc.) than a tiny puppy. She just looks so fragile, I'm afraid either me or Cadence will injure her on accident!


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

I'll send you a PM. They weren't that weight at 13 weeks, but my little girl was quite a bit smaller then her larger litter mates even though at birth she was the largest. She's actually a good pound smaller then the next smallest puppy in her litter now that they're all full grown! I've seen 1 other case with a cavalier where all the puppies where the same size at birth, and 1 puppy stayed very small and was probably about the same size as your little girl at 13 weeks. She matured to be 9 lbs, where most of her litter mates where 14 - 16 lbs, but she's healthy, she's never had a problem! BUT you just never know, this breeder had never had a small puppy before, either!


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## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

I have gotten runts before. My last runt from a breeder ended up bigger than all his littermates in the long haul! He is healthy and temperament couldn't have been any better, a gentle giant at it's finest. We did a sort've litter reunion at the breeders house once and he was the most well behaved and loved boy of the crowd so we definitely got the best one. I did get a heavy discount because he was so little and was really shy as a pup, but he grew up to be a confident adult. 

I can understand why breeders who are doing show quality dogs would mark a discount as there is a questionable variable if they will ever breed standard in their adult life but doesn't mean anything wrong with her for a great pet. You are not showing, not breeding, so this is a good opportunity for you given that the puppy checks out fine at the vet. 

Think about it for a few days, and let us know what you decide, but I think you'll be very glad to get a good dog at a good price that gets along well with Cadence and has made a impression on you.


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

Woops - Forgot to add, I don't know if you saw the piece about the urine bile acid test that they can do here in the US. Not sure what they offer in Malaysia but it'd be worth asking your vet about, I don't like fasting puppies when at all avoidable, especially a small puppy that young! The fasting bile acid test is a bit more accurate, the urine bile acid test is a bit more specific, I can't remember the numbers but I'll see if I can find some articles on the 2 methods of testing for bile acid for you.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

igmomma said:


> I'll send you a PM. They weren't that weight at 13 weeks, but my little girl was quite a bit smaller then her larger litter mates even though at birth she was the largest. She's actually a good pound smaller then the next smallest puppy in her litter now that they're all full grown! I've seen 1 other case with a cavalier where all the puppies where the same size at birth, and 1 puppy stayed very small and was probably about the same size as your little girl at 13 weeks. She matured to be 9 lbs, where most of her litter mates where 14 - 16 lbs, but she's healthy, she's never had a problem! BUT you just never know, this breeder had never had a small puppy before, either!
> 
> Woops - Forgot to add, I don't know if you saw the piece about the urine bile acid test that they can do here in the US. Not sure what they offer in Malaysia but it'd be worth asking your vet about, I don't like fasting puppies when at all avoidable, especially a small puppy that young! The fasting bile acid test is a bit more accurate, the urine bile acid test is a bit more specific, I can't remember the numbers but I'll see if I can find some articles on the 2 methods of testing for bile acid for you.


That's very comforting to know! About your friend's puppy, that is.  The breeder thinks that this little puppy will stay very small, maybe topping out at 7lbs, so tiny for a Cavalier! I don't think she will even be able to eat the Orijen kibble I'm feeding Cadence because of her size. I'm thinking might have to feed her canned food for the first couple of weeks.

I will have to ask my vet if he's able to do a bile acid test. I'm also worried about fasting a tiny puppy for 12 hours, which is why I wanted to do bloodwork instead. Is a blood test sufficient to test for liver function or do I absolutely need the vet to run a bile acid test on her?




The_Monstors said:


> I have gotten runts before. My last runt from a breeder ended up bigger than all his littermates in the long haul! He is healthy and temperament couldn't have been any better, a gentle giant at it's finest. We did a sort've litter reunion at the breeders house once and he was the most well behaved and loved boy of the crowd so we definitely got the best one. I did get a heavy discount because he was so little and was really shy as a pup, but he grew up to be a confident adult.
> 
> I can understand why breeders who are doing show quality dogs would mark a discount as there is a questionable variable if they will ever breed standard in their adult life but doesn't mean anything wrong with her for a great pet. You are not showing, not breeding, so this is a good opportunity for you given that the puppy checks out fine at the vet.
> 
> Think about it for a few days, and let us know what you decide, but I think you'll be very glad to get a good dog at a good price that gets along well with Cadence and has made a impression on you.


That's great that your pup turned out confident! That's also a bit of a crapshoot with puppies, huh? When they're little most of them are crazy, hyper, and friendly, but not all of them grow up that way.. and then some who are shy really blossom when they're separated from their littermates. 

I'm definitely going to be thinking about it long and hard. I've told the breeder that I'll make a decision by the end of the week, so... I'll be keeping all of you posted on what I decide!

I'm also feeling kinda nervous adding another dog. It's just going to be such a huge jump going from 1 to 2 dogs  Right now Cadence gets to eat whenever he wants and I don't have to worry about separating dogs during feeding time etc. etc.

I think I'm going to post a separate thread on the training forum because I've never trained 2 dogs at the same time before... In your opinions, is it absolutely necessary for dogs to learn to be alone? It took Cadence a long time to adjust to being alone (he sounded like a banshee every time I was out of sight), but this new pup will probably never spend any time alone at all since Cadence will be there to keep her company.


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

I think it's a matter of personal preference - I like my dogs to learn to be alone so if they do have to be hospitalized or something for any reason, they're ok being isolated at the vet clinic and it doesn't stress them out any more then needed, plus I show some of my dogs, so they have to be ok with being crated and alone ring side and in the grooming area when they're not in the ring. 

As for the health testing questions - Standard blood work I find is insufficient to really rule out a liver problem. It may indicate there could be, but for liver problems to show on standard blood work there has to be significant damage done to the liver already, that's why I always recommend the bile acid test if there's a concern about a shunt or liver problem. 

As for feeding - You may be surprised! Orijen is a very good kibble, if at first she has a hard time, try soaking it a little - Canned food can be a great alternative as well. Honestly, I am not a big fan of dry kibble alone. More so with cats then dogs, but dry kibble can lead to bladder issues, kidney problems, urinary problems, etc. A dog's natural diet is high in moisture, where dogs tend to drink more water on their own then a cat would it's not a HUGE deal, but I still prefer moistening kibble, or feeding canned food if a commercial diet is going to be used. Myself, I prefer to feed raw, but understand that's not an option for everyone or every dog - One of my dogs can't eat raw because of medical problems that prevent her from being able to digest her food effectively, but I find in general raw is by far the healthiest way to feed your dog.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I've just spoken to the breeder again, and he agrees on doing an acid bile test as well as bloodwork to rule out any potential problems with the pup (whose temporary name is Chloe, given by the breeder). He's also agreed to let me take her home for a week to get her checked over by the vet and to see how well she gets along with Cadence before I commit to anything--he's agreeing to take her back if for some reason I don't feel she's a good fit or if she isn't given a clean bill of health.

I got the breeder to send me some photos of here so here they are!


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

omg, that face! How could you resist? She is DARLING! Almost makes me want another cavalier! I'm really liking this breeder - Not only is it very clear to me as a breeder myself that they've got nothing to hide, but they're going out of their way to make sure that this darling puppy is totally healthy, just tiny. Wither you get this puppy or a puppy from this breeder down the road - I'd say you've found your self a GREAT breeder!


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Well, beause I am an enabler, i am going to tell you to get another Cavalier!!  I know, i'm having a seriously hard time saying no to that face! I agree, I got really lucky with this breeder and he was only the second one I contacted while searching. If I end up not getting this puppy, I would most definitely be getting another one of his somewhere down the line. Isnt it funny how we all root for the underdog? The breeder's entire family loves this little girl and really want her to go to a great home where she will be well taken care of and loved. They've also said that she seems like the kind of dog who will do best with a canine friend instead of being an only dog. I'm 100% sure Cadence is the same way too--he took a really long time to adjust to being alone and till toda, whenever he goes to daycare or the boarder's, he runs in at full speed, completely ignoring me, to go and play with his buddies


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

http://www.roycroftinformationcenter.com/Roycroft Cavaliers/Roycroft Contact page.html

Here is the website of an amazing Cavalier breeder. I would love to get a puppy from her. She is totally health focused. If you contacted her, I am pretty sure she could answer your questions to help guide you in making your decision. I am also a member on another cavalier forum. There is a breeder on that forum who is really good. I am sure he would answer any questions you had.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

You know what, that would be really great actually! If you could PM me their emails that would be awesome. Thanks so much!

And btw, those dogs on the breeder's websites are completely gorgeous.


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## hequestrian (Jul 26, 2011)

I am not a breeder and do not have experience with Cavaliers BUT...

That is a GORGEOUS little gal. So cute. 

I recently purchased a "runt" so to speak. She is a Chinese Crested (powder puff) and was much smaller than her other litter mates. I have a picture- can't see the full difference but I am convinced the other pup was a LOT bigger. I fell in love with Phoebe though and had her vetted out and brought her home. The breeder gave me a health guarantee similar to the one that you say your potential breeder is providing. He seems to be very honest and straight forward. 

Phoebe and her sister- you can see the difference just in paw size...











As for being worried about the puppy and your current dog- I brought my new pup home and was concerned about Fred (my 15lb mini schnauzer) and how he would play with her. He for the most part is very gentle. She actually chases him around and gives him a run for his money. I don't leave them alone together as she is tiny and I do still worry but they will be fine soon. 


I say go for it if the vets say the pup appears healthy. I wouldn't be able to resist that little face. 
Good luck


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

It sounds like what is called "failure to thrive" in humans. It can have many possible health causes for humans (there's a list here). I agree with Johnny Bandit that it's a lot more worrisome that this puppy was born normal in size and is now not only smaller but also (as you added on the second page) skinny.

It seems like this puppy might come with a heightened risk for heart break and big expenses. But those are realities that you've already accepted by choosing a cavalier, right? As long as you go into it with your eyes open.

Hopefully the cause is something relatively minor, and something that your vet can detect so that the effects can be ameliorated.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

hequestrian said:


> I am not a breeder and do not have experience with Cavaliers BUT...
> 
> That is a GORGEOUS little gal. So cute.
> 
> ...


She has such a "please bring me home???" face, doesn't she? Your puppy is ADORABLE! I saw the pics you posted on the pictures forum. I LOVE Powder Puffs. (Sad to say, I don't like hairless dogs) But Powder Puffs are just so cute. They remind me of teddy bears for some reason 

Btw, I can really see the size difference between Phoebe and her sister. I think this pup I'm getting looks to be about that sort of a size difference with her sister (she might be even smaller).

Yes, I definitely intend to supervise their together time 100%--she won't be left alone with my older dog (who's 9lbs) until she's at least 6lbs. Lol.



begemot said:


> It sounds like what is called "failure to thrive" in humans. It can have many possible health causes for humans (there's a list here). I agree with Johnny Bandit that it's a lot more worrisome that this puppy was born normal in size and is now not only smaller but also (as you added on the second page) skinny.
> 
> It seems like this puppy might come with a heightened risk for heart break and big expenses. But those are realities that you've already accepted by choosing a cavalier, right? As long as you go into it with your eyes open.
> 
> Hopefully the cause is something relatively minor, and something that your vet can detect so that the effects can be ameliorated.


I actually did google up failure to thrive, but only in dogs, not humans. I have decided to take the puppy home next week for a "trial run"--to get her to the vet and have bloodwork and liver function test done, and also to see how well she gets along with Cadence. If her tests come out clean and she and Cadence hit it off, I will be keeping her. If not, the breeder is going to be taking her back.

Yes definitely have all the heart/vet bills in mind already by choosing a Cavalier. Hopefully my diligence in picking a breeder (and going through pedigree histories) will work out in my favour. I've got my fingers crossed!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I do not know the Cavalier breed at all. I hope everything health-wise turns out great. And if it does...............I say go for it!.

I took the runt because no one else would. I wasn't smart enough at the time to think major issues could arise. He was so small he fit in my coat pocket; unlike his littermate brother whom I also took. He was almost bald, his tail was docked too short......he looked like a rat...........and he came with antibiotics because he had kennel cough! Boy was I dumb!....Yes, the baby doll face did me in.

I did get very lucky and he is almost the same size as his brother with no big health issues. He is exceptionally smart. He is a normal poodle/schnauzer mix adult weighing in at 17.3 lbs. and his brother at 20 lbs. So I say if she is healthy go for it!



I agree on the vet check 100%. Good Luck!


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Thank you! 

Yikes, your pup sounds like he was in a bad shape when you brought him home. Good think he grew up just fine. Funny thing, my pup caught kennel cough when he was little too, maybe around 4 months old? Just that once and he's never had it again.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

My inclination would be to pass on the puppy. If an animal is born at the proper size, but then fails to grow at the proper rate, this is indicative of problems to come. It's great that the breeder wants to do right by the pup and by you (pay medical expenses, take back the pup in case of problems, etc.), but even beyond the financial aspect, no one needs that kind of heartache in their life. I recently witnessed some friends return a puppy (the runt, incidentally) to the breeder due to health issues after having her for ~6mo. It was hell on them - I can't even begin to imagine the pain they must have felt.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Yikes, your pup sounds like he was in a bad shape when you brought him home. Good think he grew up just fine. Funny thing, my pup caught kennel cough when he was little too, maybe around 4 months old? Just that once and he's never had it again.


 Unfortunately the breeder who was also a vets assistant said she left the whole litter outside while she was at work, and it rained on all those poor puppies! They all got sick! Dumb! Dumb! Dumb!

I guess any pup you get is like a game of Russian roulette.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

I think I must have the runt-- but I did not get to see the rest of the litter-- it is a fairly large kennel--as well as the fact that the current females were producing 10-11 pups per litter and she had 4 ...She was an older pup, one that was left....
TO the Breeders credit we were nervous about getting our first Giant Schnauzer and explained that we had experience with large Boxers in the 70-80 lb range so wanted a smaller Giant! And that is exactly what we got -- at age 2 she is 67lbs perfect and beautiful and healthy. But I am resigned to saying Yes she is a Giant, yes she does not look that Giant... She is a small Giant to the end of her days! LOL.


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