# Agility folks, Anyone do a 4 on the floor?



## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Is anyone on here doing a 4 on the floor contact? If so, are you doing it with a quick release so it looks just like a running contact? If so, what percentage of the time do you quick-release in training and do you ever *not* quick release in a trial setting?


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Is anyone on here doing a 4 on the floor contact? If so, are you doing it with a quick release so it looks just like a running contact? If so, what percentage of the time do you quick-release in training and do you ever *not* quick release in a trial setting?


 I have never trained 4otf but wanted to say, it doesn't look "just like a running contact". It looks like and is a quick release stopped contact  I think it is a fine idea if you don't want 2o2o or like the idea of running contacts but also want to be able to slow the dog after the DW. It seems with quick release though that if you always do it in trials, it will erode over time and you may get fly-offs because the dog isn't trained to run the contacts. 

If you are interested in this method, I believe CleanRun has a DVD about it?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Had never heard of 4oth so tried to look it up but could not find anything on it. I do a running contact with Remmy but thought I would try 2o2o with Lucy as I am just starting her in a foundation class. I am just doing it with a flat board just off the ground right now and she is starting to get the idea.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

If Clean Run has a DVD, I was unable to find it. And when I wrote to them and asked, they pointed me to back issues of the magazine.

The 4 on the Floor, when done well, really does *look* like a running contact. My extremely successful trainer gets compliments all the time on her gorgeous running contacts which actually are quick-release 4 on the floors. 80% of the time in practice and 100% of the time in trials, the dogs are released as their front feet hit the ground, seconds before the dogs go into a crouch. If you aren't watching closely, you won't see the release. 

I have trained my new dog using this method and I attempted to retrain my old dog on it. It was not a good fit for my 2o2o dog, but my pup is doing alright on it. What I am mostly concerned about is the maintenence that is needed to keep the behavior reliable and strong. My instructor is hard-working and fabulous. Her ability to accomplish it may not reflect what I will be able to do with it. I was hoping to find other people wrestling with the ins and outs of it.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> If Clean Run has a DVD, I was unable to find it. And when I wrote to them and asked, they pointed me to back issues of the magazine.


 There definitely is a DVD out there by Ann Croft, however a quick search seems to suggest it is no longer being made. 4otf never really caught on as a mainstream contact method. Part of it was that there were rumors that people were getting called for refusals with dogs trained for it. I looked into it briefly for my Belgian but ended up just doing 2o2o with her. My youngest I trained running contacts. 

ETA: It looks like Amazon still has one in stock:

http://www.amazon.com/On-The-Floor-Modified-Contacts/dp/B0007P9JH8





trainingjunkie said:


> The 4 on the Floor, when done well, really does *look* like a running contact. My extremely successful trainer gets compliments all the time on her gorgeous running contacts which actually are quick-release 4 on the floors. 80% of the time in practice and 100% of the time in trials, the dogs are released as their front feet hit the ground, seconds before the dogs go into a crouch. If you aren't watching closely, you won't see the release.


 I have no doubt it looks like a running contact to many people. The key difference between a running contact and a quick release is if the dog accelerates or decelerates on the down ramp. 

If having a contact that looks like a running contact, is there a reason you don't want to just train a running contact?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks Alerondogs! I struck out in my search for the DVD. Now I can try again with an author! Perfect!

I am in a "contact quandry." I have a coach that I adore and respect. She loves the 4 on the floor and really dislikes the running contact. She also really dislikes 2o2o. 

I passionately love 2o2o. I currently run a very fast dog and we have NQed on every standard run since switching to 4otf. I want to go back to 2o2o. I know that we will have to battle hard to get it turned back on in the ring, but I think it's a battle I want to fight. I need the time to get to him. 

I think 4otf with a quick release is too murky of a criteria. I wonder if this is because I don't understand the method well enough. From what I understand, I really hate it. I am training a pup who will start trialing next summer and she is faster than my current dog. She is a whippet with focus, so she just eats ground. I want to 2o2o with her so I have a chance to catch up, but I fear that that choice might be a deal-breaker with my coach. She's pretty upset about me returning to 2o2o with my current dog. I was hoping to learn more about the 4otf so I could make a better decision moving forward.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Thanks Alerondogs! I struck out in my search for the DVD. Now I can try again with an author! Perfect!
> 
> Glad to help! If you missed it, I have a link in my reply above to buy the DVD at Amazon.
> 
> ...


 It doesn't sound like your instructor is giving you the same respect you give her  Honestly, I can't imagine working with an instructor who will not allow their students to train whatever contact behavior they are comfortable with. 2o2o is probably the most popular, widely used contact behavior in the sport. The instructor I go to has solid 2o2o with her dogs but was fine with me training a running on mine and has been very supportive of my efforts.

YOu could potentially train both a 2o2o and 4otf. Polona Bonac trained at least one of her dogs to do 2o2o and running contacts: http://youtu.be/H9pJFYIEECU

IME Regular use of quick release does make for murky criteria for the dog. Especially worrisome is that if you quick release at most trials, your dog can learn that the contact criteria changes in a trial setting. IME Reliable stopped contacts are sort of hard to maintain in fast dogs who really want to go, so giving them a situation where stopping is no longer required can led to the behavior eroding pretty quickly.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Personally, I don't like it. Methods like this are what cause so much shoulder damage in dogs. If they do not need to control themselves and shift their weight back coming off the down ramp, then they end up just slamming into the ground with their front legs, and all their weight coming after it. There's also the potential for missed contacts, but I wouldn't be as worried about that as I am about all the dogs who will have to retire early to get shoulder surgery.

Really, the only contact method I'd ever use other than a running contact would be a 2o2o (WITH a nose target - without the nose target it's just as dangerous as any other method.)


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

TorachiKatashi said:


> Personally, I don't like it. Methods like this are what cause so much shoulder damage in dogs. If they do not need to control themselves and shift their weight back coming off the down ramp, then they end up just slamming into the ground with their front legs, and all their weight coming after it. There's also the potential for missed contacts, but I wouldn't be as worried about that as I am about all the dogs who will have to retire early to get shoulder surgery.


 Do you personally know multiple dogs who have had to retired early to get shoulder surgery because of 4otf? Or 2o2o for that matter?


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