# Hatred among dog owners



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

specifically, i am referring to people with small or aggressive dogs, who can't stand people (like me) with goofy, friendly dogs that go off-leash in certain circumstances.

obviously, there are many very irresponsible situations of pooches off-leash, where animosity is completely justified.

but, then there are more subtle situations, where both sides walk away thinking the other is a moron, or overreacting, or not looking at the whole picture.

for example: me and oinest go to a nearby beach 7 months of the year. 

ever since the mayor got a pooch, no one gets a ticket during off-season for letting their dog off-leash.
the pooches have loads of fun together.

oinest is friendly and gentle, to all people and to all dogs.
he's also cautious before approaching other dogs, especially one on leash.

here's one scenario:

A husband and wife with two vicious standard poodles.
(I found out later these dogs are infamous at the beach...in fact, one had bitten a dog just the day before.)

oinest cautiously approached, but backed off when he saw they were mean.

however, the man and woman were having a hard time holding on to the dogs.
so, they were screaming and cursing at me for being irresponsible.

from their perspective, they had a right to be on the beach...especially if their pooches were on-leash....who knows, they might have been working on socializing them outdoors.

from my perspective, oinest has too much fun all year long to prevent him from running off-leash, just because of one or two minor situations each year.

as well, they know the custom at this particular beach is for dogs to run off-leash...let them go somewhere else, for all i care.

and, why do they have such vicious doggies in the first place? 
even if they have a good reason (rescue?), they need to make adjustments, and not think the world will revolve around them...even if they do have a legal right.

i know lots of you will disagree with me.
you probably have small and/or aggressive pooches, and are always running in to morons like me.

just wanted to throw out the other guy's perspective.

btw, i hope this thread won't be post after post of horror stories of morons with their moronic dogs off-leash.

i'm looking to discuss the more subtle issues...where all off-leash dogs and their owners (perhaps) should not be lumped into one group.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes because small = aggressive as we all know... I don't see why you added that in there, but okay... 

My opinion and I'll be blunt is that if you're allowed to have your dog off leash, then it shouldn't be running up all over everyone. Not everyone who is at a beach or park (unless it's a dog park because that would just be silly) like dogs. If it was a beach that sounds like it virtually a dog park, then they really shouldn't have their dogs there, but I'd also expect other owners to have control over their dogs. 

Of course I get annoyed when a strange large dog rushes over to my small dogs. think of it this way- my dogs are a tiny fraction of their size. I don't know your dog, I don't know you. How am I going to know your dog isn't going 'Look! Prey!'? I don't know you and all I see is a dog that isn't contained by its owner.

The point is that on either side of the fence you NEVER know how another's dog will react to yours. It is not always the person with the aggressive dog on the leash's fault. I've had this happen before with my own GSD who was aggressive with certain other dogs. Man with 'friendly dog' comes walking down the street- Shack is on a lead. other dog runs up to him, wagging his tail and Shack just lays into him requiring him to go to the hospital. It wouldn't have happened had the other dog's owner had his dog on a leash like he was supposed to and kept his dog out of stranger's front yards. 

People with dog aggressive dogs should be taking precautions to keep their dogs out of these situations but other owners should be too. So I see fault in that the poodle owners brought their dogs to a place where dogs would be running around if their dogs were aggressive but I also see a problem with allowing your dog to run up to other people with their dogs on a lead. and I have yet to figure out how small dogs come into play as the entire post was about standard poodles.


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## raquyx (Dec 27, 2007)

I will never understand letting your dog off leash to go frolic with other off leash dogs that it doesn't know. That's just asking for trouble. Sure, your own dog may not be dog agressive and have perfect recall, but I'll bet that you'll meet a dog in the park/at the beach that isn't quite as good as yours. It only takes one scuffle for a dog to become dog-aggressive for life. There is no need to put your dog in danger like that. They don't need to play "with their own kind."


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Yes because small = aggressive as we all know... I don't see why you added that in there, but okay...
> 
> My opinion and I'll be blunt is that if you're allowed to have your dog off leash, then it shouldn't be running up all over everyone. Not everyone who is at a beach or park (unless it's a dog park because that would just be silly) like dogs. If it was a beach that sounds like it virtually a dog park, then they really shouldn't have their dogs there, but I'd also expect other owners to have control over their dogs.
> 
> ...


Actually, from what I understand there is a leash law, it is just being ignored by everyone (including law-enforcement). But if someone got bitten by a dog off lead, that would really look bad for an owner of a dog off-lead.

IMO the people with the poodles were being responsible owners and I would be ticked off if I were them.

I for one CAN'T STAND strange dogs coming up to me, having been bitten as a kid. I don't care if it looks friendly as all get out it absolutely freaks out. I also CAN'T STAND people who let their dogs roam free, unless it's in a dog park, which is something I don't think I'd ever be able to go to.

ETA: By the way, just so you know Bo is probably not going to be small (26 lbs at 13 week) and so far the only thing I have seen him act aggressive towards are butterflies.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JenTN said:


> Actually, from what I understand there is a leash law, it is just being ignored by everyone (including law-enforcement). But if someone got bitten by a dog off lead, that would really look bad for an owner of a dog off-lead.
> 
> IMO the people with the poodles were being responsible owners and I would be ticked off if I were them.
> 
> I for one CAN'T STAND strange dogs coming up to me, having been bitten as a kid. I don't care if it looks friendly as all get out it absolutely freaks out. I also CAN'T STAND people who let their dogs roam free, unless it's in a dog park, which is something I don't think I'd ever be able to go to.


If that's the case then the poodle owners were definitely not in the wrong. Their dogs were leashed and your (OP) dog ran up to them. Anything ensuing would and should be your fault because you were failing to obey leash laws.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

I don't understand how "small" is synonymous with "aggressive" either. I also don't understand why you would expect "lots" of us to have small and aggressive dogs.

Of course they have a right to be there with their dogs; however, they should know what kinds of situations they can or cannot control their dogs in. If the place was as packed with off-leash dogs as you seem to make it out to be, then they shouldn't have taken their dogs there; however, if this was the case then I'm curious to know why the poodles weren't already going crazy with aggression from all the other off-leash dogs around you. 

Likewise, you also need to be aware that not every dog is completely stable and, for the sake of Oinest and other dogs' safety, be able to call him off if you recognise that the dog he is about to approach is not a friendly one, whether the dog is leashed or not.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Laws are obviously placed...Who gives a rats behind about if the mayor got a dog or not. Shouldnt mean that laws get thrown out the window.


It really chaps my behind when I have my dogs on leash at the beach and a strange dog runs up with hackles raised and some fool is hollering from 200 yards away " HE DONT BIIIITEE" I am not afraid of any dog when I am alone, but when my "Small non aggressive dogs" are with me. I tend to lose my cool. For one...when I am alone I can fend for myself but when they are with me..Its hard to fend for myself and both of them at the same time. Its like weapon running after me and we are defenseless. Now, I havent got any horrer stories about being attacked by dogs, But I have some about me verbally attacking morons.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

My Cocker that is sweet, got bitten by a large off leash dog where there is a leash law, as the owner was yelling "She's friendly". Yeah right.

You were in the wrong.


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## Sunshyne (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm not sure why you are targeting small dogs and their owners... maybe that's who you have run into more? 

Would it be ok for me to say I don't like _all _big dogs and their owners? That's just stupid.


As far as off-leash dogs go: I live in a beach town and we have 5 nice beaches. I used to not really care about off leash dogs until I had a child and we tried to have a nice day at the beach and it turned into random dogs running up to us / her and scaring her to death, trying to take our snacks, chasing us / her. Although I may realize that the dog was being friendly and wanted to play, she could not comprehend that and you absolutely never know what is going to happen when an unfamiliar dog comes running up to you.

We DO have a leash law in my town, so it's not like this was / is an ok thing for owners to be doing. If families and kids are at the beach and your dog is all up in my business and has no manners, it's not ok. That's who _I_ run into. 

I do understand and think it's ok (in some situations ie middle of winter, no kids around, etc) for dogs to be off leash OFF SEASON if your dog has 100% recall, has a history of being friendly, is trained and has been around children. But how do we know that? How do you know my child isn't allergic or had a bad experience with a dog? Dogs, no matter how well trained you think they are, are animals and we cannot always predict their behavior.


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## terryjeanne (Jul 13, 2007)

Nice to see the mayor has so much power. Does he walk his dog off leash also? It's odd that laws are ignored because the mayor got a dog.

I love dogs but I detest when dogs are running up to me. I don't know they are friendly, or flea ridden,. It's just rude. What if I just ran up to you and gave you a big hug. 

Even if I know the dog, I want to be the one approaching to give attention. I have a retriever living down the street that just lives for attention. But he always waits until I say hello and hold out my hand.


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

I think OP started off on the wrong foot here by generalizing small dogs as agressive... you are offending people here right off the bat. It is the owner and the training that affects a dogs behavior, not the size of the dog. There are just as many badly socialized big dogs as there are small. As the future owner of a small dog, I now feel the need to defend little dogs against these sterotypes.

I don't always have a problem with people having dogs off lead. There are a few neighborhoods here in the city where I often see off lead dogs walking nicely beside their owners and generally minding their own business. However, I don't think it's appropriate to be letting your off lead dog run around and do whatever he wants to (unless you are at the dog park). I don't see how it's the fault of the standard poodle owners at all... sorry buddy but I don't think you have much right to get pissed off at them.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

actually, i don't see where i made a generalization that small dogs are aggressive.
oinest meets many wonderful small dogs at the beach.

the problem comes up with small dogs who are scared of his size, and then react aggressively...or with large dogs who are always aggressive.

sorry if i wasn't clear.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

The whole small dog thing aside, I think the OP raises good points. I often think it's odd that so many people don't want their dogs approached by other dogs, even when both dogs are on leash. Are there really that many people out there walking aggressive dogs that can't be approached? Why does it seem so many more dogs are unsocialized these days? It comes off sometimes like there are a bunch of grumpy dog people out there making excuses not to socialize with others. When my dogs were first old enough to go to the park, I was excited to take them and meet some other dogs, talk to some dog people, and show off the training I'd been working on with them...I soon learned that being at the park is all about people yelling from 20 feet away, "Don't come close, he's not friendly!" I can't help but think, well, maybe you shouldn't be at such a busy park. I guess I'm lucky, my dogs would be overjoyed if an unleashed dog ran up and sniffed their butt and wanted to play, or if a kid came up to pet them. Even Ripley, who would be barking like a maniac, is still friendly.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't think OP has a leg to stand on, he is wrong. Of course it's all them mean little dogs on leash that are causing problems in the 1st place.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

sheltiemom said:


> The whole small dog thing aside, I think the OP raises good points. I often think it's odd that so many people don't want their dogs approached by other dogs, even when both dogs are on leash. Are there really that many people out there walking aggressive dogs that can't be approached? Why does it seem so many more dogs are unsocialized these days? It comes off sometimes like there are a bunch of grumpy dog people out there making excuses not to socialize with others. When my dogs were first old enough to go to the park, I was excited to take them and meet some other dogs, talk to some dog people, and show off the training I'd been working on with them...I soon learned that being at the park is all about people yelling from 20 feet away, "Don't come close, he's not friendly!" I can't help but think, well, maybe you shouldn't be at such a busy park. I guess I'm lucky, my dogs would be overjoyed if an unleashed dog ran up and sniffed their butt and wanted to play, or if a kid came up to pet them. Even Ripley, who would be barking like a maniac, is still friendly.



I have no problem with Bo being approached by other dogs on leash, I encourage it. It's off lead dogs that freak me out. But, I guess after getting bitten (bad enough to go to the ER) by a dog-agressive dog that was off lead, while I was standing in my front yard with my Sheltie on a leash, has made me a bit fearful.


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## Chindo_Gae_Cerberus (Mar 24, 2008)

If it's illegal to have a dog off leash in any area, you are doing a wrongful act, PERIOD. 

If you are in an area where dogs are allowed off leash then good, great for you, and no. People should not complain about off leash dogs in the appropriate area. 

Any aggressive dog no matter size or breed should always be controlled by their owner at all times.


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## Sunshyne (Feb 5, 2008)

I have a small dog, and she isn't afraid of any big dog! We met a dobie on our walk the other day and she wanted to play so badly (he didn't, and it was very obvious).

I think it's the individual dog, not just small breeds, that can get freightened or aggressive. The big yellow lab that lives next to us is afraid of the wind (and everything else). 

Size should not be the issue; socialization, training and proper etiquette are what mainly matters.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I walk my dog off lead a LOT. However, when I see other people around I tell her to walk at Heel. If, _for any reason_, I think she is going to break that request and go up to people or dogs, out comes the leash. No questions and NO excuses.

Allowing your off lead dog run up to every dog or person sharing space with you is, IMO, rude behavior. It is just as rude to allow your child to do the same thing. Not everyone likes dogs or children. Not every dog is friendly (regardless of how your dog is). Not every person is friendly to dogs (or children) and I have seen some interesting reactions from people toward both when they are allowed to run up to strangers.. and some of those reactions border on cruel.

So, it is not a matter of whether or not there is a leash law, whether or not it is enforced, whether or not people walk their dogs on leash and the dogs are agressive or whether or not your dog is having fun. It is a matter of good manners. 

It is also a matter of health. I don't let my dog run up to every dog out there because I have no idea the dogs health status or how UTD the dog is on vaccinations etc. 

Allowing a dog to be off leash is not the issue. The issue is allowing the dog off leash to be out of your immediate control. Allowing your off leash dog to run up to everyone is just plainly impolite as well as unsafe for everyone concerned.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

well, i guess i pressed some touchy buttons.

let's not get side-tracked about small dogs...that was just a misinterpretation of my meaning...i love small pooches.

the issue is...Oinest loves to run off-leash...and so do his pals...

in an entire year, there are perhaps one or two minor incidents...i'm not going to take away the joy of his life because someone with a vicious or nervous dog has a good point, that they are on leash and i am not.

if there were more incidents, or any serious incidents, i would reconsider.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

dog-man said:


> actually, i don't see where i made a generalization that small dogs are aggressive.
> oinest meets many wonderful small dogs at the beach.
> 
> the problem comes up with small dogs who are scared of his size, and then react aggressively...or with large dogs who are always aggressive.
> ...


But see I thought you were clear. You clearly put an "or"..But people tend to jump to comclusions alot


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

JenTN said:


> I have no problem with Bo being approached by other dogs on leash, I encourage it. It's off lead dogs that freak me out. But, I guess after getting bitten (bad enough to go to the ER) by a dog-agressive dog that was off lead, while I was standing in my front yard with my Sheltie on a leash, has made me a bit fearful.


I can understand that, and I think owners who have their dogs off lead have a huge responsibility. Off lead, your dog should be 100% friendly and have close to perfect recall as well as an emergency stop word. I do let Frosty off lead on trails and in my yard, and he is always under my control. Ripley is too quick to approach people and I know that, and Shiner is just too new, so those two are leashed. In the situation the op posted, I do think he should have called his dogs back and not allowed them to approach the poodles without approval from the owners. It still just surprises me how many people have aggressive/reactive/undersocialized dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sheltiemom said:


> The whole small dog thing aside, I think the OP raises good points. I often think it's odd that so many people don't want their dogs approached by other dogs, even when both dogs are on leash. Are there really that many people out there walking aggressive dogs that can't be approached? Why does it seem so many more dogs are unsocialized these days? It comes off sometimes like there are a bunch of grumpy dog people out there making excuses not to socialize with others. When my dogs were first old enough to go to the park, I was excited to take them and meet some other dogs, talk to some dog people, and show off the training I'd been working on with them...I soon learned that being at the park is all about people yelling from 20 feet away, "Don't come close, he's not friendly!" I can't help but think, well, maybe you shouldn't be at such a busy park. I guess I'm lucky, my dogs would be overjoyed if an unleashed dog ran up and sniffed their butt and wanted to play, or if a kid came up to pet them. Even Ripley, who would be barking like a maniac, is still friendly.


I think you should ask before allowing your dog to come up to a strange one, period. You don't know how they'll react to other dogs. I think the owner of a dog that doesn't care for other dogs, is prey driven towards small dogs, etc should be allowed to go places where dogs are expected to be leashed and under control. Your dog should be under control as well.

My dog likes meeting new dogs but not if they're not behaving. It should be a mutual thing between owners.


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

sheltiemom said:


> The whole small dog thing aside, I think the OP raises good points. I often think it's odd that so many people don't want their dogs approached by other dogs, even when both dogs are on leash. Are there really that many people out there walking aggressive dogs that can't be approached? Why does it seem so many more dogs are unsocialized these days? It comes off sometimes like there are a bunch of grumpy dog people out there making excuses not to socialize with others.


Just because many of us love the fact that having a dog opens you up to socializing with other people/dogs more easily, I think that we have to respect that not everybody feels this way. I'm sure there are plenty of unsocial/very shy people out there who love their dogs but don't necessarily want to stop and chat with everybody that walks past them. Who cares? Just because somebody has a dog doesn't mean we shouldn't respect their personal boundaries or hold it against them. Plus there probably ARE a lot of shelter dogs out there that have some social issues, but who still needs walks and excersize. 

And OP, even if you didn't necessarily mean it that way, you did start off your thread by saying "small and agressive" dogs. I wouldn't blame the small dogs for being afraid when an off lead dog comes bounding up to them... I can only imagine how I would feel if a hyper 350 lb. man came sprinting up to me while I was out walking!


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Chicster said:


> .
> "small and agressive" dogs.


lmao..

Small *or* Agressive.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

iwantmypup said:


> lmao..
> 
> Small *or* Agressive.


The issue I had with the wording which I am sure the others had with me was that there was absolutely no mention of a small dog in the OP. I didn't see how size was relevant. If size wasn't the big deal, then it would be just worded as 'aggressive dogs', would it not?


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

Thank you Laurelin, that's exactly what I meant.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> The issue I had with the wording which I am sure the others had with me was that there was absolutely no mention of a small dog in the OP. I didn't see how size was relevant. If size wasn't the big deal, then it would be just worded as 'aggressive dogs', would it not?


Okay I understand.  
But I believe if you are going to use that -at least get it right.

-Ali


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I think you should ask before allowing your dog to come up to a strange one, period. You don't know how they'll react to other dogs. I think the owner of a dog that doesn't care for other dogs, is prey driven towards small dogs, etc should be allowed to go places where dogs are expected to be leashed and under control. Your dog should be under control as well.
> 
> My dog likes meeting new dogs but not if they're not behaving. It should be a mutual thing between owners.


I do ask now, even on leash, but honestly before I started posting on dog forums, having never come in contact with an aggressive dog in my life up to that point, I had no idea there was that unwritten rule. I'm sure I was that person everyone hates, who lets out their retractable lead so the dog can say "hi" without waiting for me to get up there.  I know "the rules" now and I don't do that, but my main point was that I'm surprised how many people out there don't want their dogs approached. It really truly surprises me and I really truly wonder why the seeming increase in unfriendly dogs.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

There are so many things wrong with this its hard to even reply to. Your perspective is narcissistic. You have no consideration for anyone but yourself. 





dog-man said:


> specifically, i am referring to people with small or aggressive dogs, who can't stand people (like me) with goofy, friendly dogs that go off-leash in certain circumstances..


 It doesn't matter if your dog is big, small, goofy, friendly or whatever. Your dog should be on leash unless in an area where off-leash is legal. It's selfish and inconsiderate. Just because you love your dog...not everyone will. God forbid if someone had a gun and just shot your dog because it was approaching (a little far fetched...but not out of the question)



dog-man said:


> obviously, there are many very irresponsible situations of pooches off-leash, where animosity is completely justified.


 Just because an occurance happened where your unleashed dog approached someone or another dog and nothing "horrible" happened...doesn't make it justified.



dog-man said:


> but, then there are more subtle situations, where both sides walk away thinking the other is a moron, or overreacting, or not looking at the whole picture.


 Like yourself? You are not looking at the whole picture. You are only seeing this from YOUR perspective. Be considerate of others. 




dog-man said:


> ever since the mayor got a pooch, no one gets a ticket during off-season for letting their dog off-leash.


 What do you think the mayor would say about this statement? Wrong..just wrong.



dog-man said:


> the pooches have loads of fun together.


 until something bad happens. Doesn't sound like the "small agressive viscious standard poodles" were having fun. This doesn't have anything to do with your argument. The pooches have fun...so let's have all our dogs off leash in a public place...I don't give a crap about anyone else, small children, handicapped, allergic, afraid. Come on...



dog-man said:


> oinest is friendly and gentle, to all people and to all dogs.


 You will never be able to say this 100% about your dog...he's an animal and could have a reaction to someone or another dog that you have never seen before. What would happen if a dog agressive dog came up to oinest and laid into him? Even if he is, so what. It's a public place and not all people want to have a dog approaching them. 



dog-man said:


> he's also cautious before approaching other dogs, especially one on leash.


 He shouldn't be approaching anyone or any other dog unless he is on a leash or in a dog park where all know the risk and the situation. 




dog-man said:


> A husband and wife with two vicious standard poodles. (I found out later these dogs are infamous at the beach...in fact, one had bitten a dog just the day before.)


 First of all, how do you know they are viscous...this is hearsay. I suspect this is nothing more than gossip




dog-man said:


> oinest cautiously approached, but backed off when he saw they were mean.
> 
> however, the man and woman were having a hard time holding on to the dogs.
> so, they were screaming and cursing at me for being irresponsible.


 Rightly so, they would have been cursing you even if they weren't having trouble holding on to their dogs. 



dog-man said:


> from their perspective, they had a right to be on the beach...especially if their pooches were on-leash....who knows, they might have been working on socializing them outdoors.


 It doesn't matter "why" they were there...they had the right to be there and were in no way wrong for their reaction to you



dog-man said:


> from my perspective, oinest has too much fun all year long to prevent him from running off-leash, just because of one or two minor situations each year.


 I don't care if your dog is having fun..get a yard. These one or two minor situations could, injure or worse kill
a child or another dog, or an adult. Your dog could be injured from another dog, someone else...there is no telling. Your dog could end up in a legal battle that could ultimately lead to his death. Be responsible...leash your dog unless legal to have your dog unleashed. 



dog-man said:


> as well, they know the custom at this particular beach is for dogs to run off-leash...let them go somewhere else, for all i care.


 Custom or not, your dog approached them and they reacted. Get over it. 



dog-man said:


> and, why do they have such vicious doggies in the first place?
> even if they have a good reason (rescue?), they need to make adjustments, and not think the world will revolve around them...even if they do have a legal right.


 How do you know they are viscious...because they barked at you? You apparently think the world revolves around your dog having fun at the beach. Grow up.




dog-man said:


> and are always running in to morons like me.


 This is the only thing I agree with...and I have a big goofy, sweet pooch like you.



dog-man said:


> just wanted to throw out the other guy's perspective.


 Again, your perspective is selfish, inconsiderate and narcissistic



dog-man said:


> i'm looking to discuss the more subtle issues...where all off-leash dogs and their owners (perhaps) should not be lumped into one group.


 It doesn't have anything to do with the off-leash dog...only the owner. It doesn't matter how nice you or your dog is...it's irresponsible. It isn't anything personal...it just disrespectful of other peoples safety in a public place. Save the off-leash fun for areas where it's lawful, accepted by everyone, and others have accepted the risk of having offleash dogs around.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

This is an interesting post. I have a small, leash/fear aggressive dog (and yes, he's a shelter dog). He hasn't really bitten any other dogs, except for one stupid notable incident that was entirely my fault and fortunately involved my friend's dog. I won't go into that here. He has snapped at another dog before, but my feeling and the feeling of the other owner is that it was a warning. She sniffed his face and he snapped, but I think he was in control of himself because he didn't actually bite her or make contact with her skin. Anyhooters....

I do get upset when people have their boisterous dogs off-leash in public areas (that are supposed to be on-leash) because it scares the crap out of both me and Max. I take great care to manage his issues and we don't go to dog parks or overly active areas. Not because I know something will happen, but because I don't want to put myself or Max in a position where something might happen. He also isn't too good with children, so we avoid them and if they ask if they can pet him I tell them he's shy. So when somebody has a dog out in the middle of my apartment complex, playing fetch off leash and has so little control that when he sees my dog he takes off running towards us- I get very upset. That happened to us yesterday. I was terrified that this much bigger dog would scare Max into biting him and start a fight. Max would have lost. Fortunately the dog read Max's body language and stopped a few feet short. I don't know who was more wound up me or Max, that was a big black dog running straight at us. If it wasn't bad enough that Max is fear/leash aggressive he's also very protective of me. It ended well. The other dog was well socialized and the owner ran up and grabbed him...but I couldn't help but be upset that she had her dog offleash in the middle of our complex.

A few people try the offleash thing, but most of them have dogs that won't get distracted or run away unless the owner gives it permission. I don't think she is a bad owner, I think she just needs to work on training her dog or take it to the dog park down the street instead. Maybe make better choices or something. Cause there are a lot of dogs in my neighborhood and not all of them are friendly. And it's not fair to those of us who are trying to abide by the rules and have a safe outing with our pet to have our space and security violated.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

LAURELIN: The issue I had with the wording which I am sure the others had with me was that there was absolutely no mention of a small dog in the OP. I didn't see how size was relevant. If size wasn't the big deal, then it would be just worded as 'aggressive dogs', would it not?


Laurelin, i understand the confusion.
But the reason i specifically mentioned small dogs was because there are many owners of small dogs who are worried when they see a big dog coming.

it happens that oinest has minimal trouble with small dogs because he puts on a very submissive and gentle attitude, that calms everyone down.

i have had countless encounters with small dogs and their owners who were so happy that the two dogs met.
many have said it was great therapy for their pooch.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

No really? Small dog owners get worried when an off leash big dog comes at them? Of course we are!

Many larger dogs see small dogs as prey. It takes one close encounter of that sort to keep you wary.

I get to either A) pick up my dog and possibly offend the owner of the large dog or B) risk leaving my small dog on the ground for a prey driven dog to try to kill. Most the time the large dog isn't going to attack, but why risk it? The large dog should be on a leash.

If a large breed owner with a well behaved large dog on a lead wishes to introduce their dog to mine, we do it slowly and I've had no problems so far. 

Contrary to popular belief not everyone regardless of whether they have a small dog, large dog, or no dog wants this 'therapy' offered by having a strange dog coming up to them uninvited.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> I walk my dog off lead a LOT. However, when I see other people around I tell her to walk at Heel. If, _for any reason_, I think she is going to break that request and go up to people or dogs, out comes the leash. No questions and NO excuses.
> 
> Allowing your off lead dog run up to every dog or person sharing space with you is, IMO, rude behavior. It is just as rude to allow your child to do the same thing. Not everyone likes dogs or children. Not every dog is friendly (regardless of how your dog is). Not every person is friendly to dogs (or children) and I have seen some interesting reactions from people toward both when they are allowed to run up to strangers.. and some of those reactions border on cruel.
> 
> ...



Ditto...I walk Sophie off lead alot too...however she is always under my control, not racing way a head of me and when a person comes I make double sure she is focusing on me. 

We have alot of parks in my home area that are not used much by people, so I like to take her there and let her play and run; as soon as I see a person though, I call her front so she isn't interfering with their walk; plus I don't know if they like dogs, and I too think it is SOOOOOOO rude to allow your dog to go up and 'greet people' on his own! 

Much of what I do with my dog IS off lead...however she is always under perfect control; which has taken alot of time and patience to accomplish, and it is fun to watch people's reactions to such a well mannered dog, because most of the dog's I encounter are pulling their owners along...

If I am in a busy area, however, she is on a leash, for her safety and my sanity!Lol!


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

CHINDO: If it's illegal to have a dog off leash in any area, you are doing a wrongful act, PERIOD. 

DOG-MAN:
well, that's a difference i have with many folks.
i am willing to bend or break laws (and risk tickets), for the sake of my pooch, if i believe i am still being responsible.

we often go to a park at night, where it is officially ALWAYS off-limits to dogs.
the cops say they don't mind, because no one is being bothered (and i do clean up).

when we go to the beach, the beach is usually totally empty.
when there are people and dogs, we have positive experiences.
oinest is good and he listens (most of the time).

i really don't care if the owners of the vicious poodles have the legal right.
so i'm legally wrong...i can shoulder that.

if i was bothering people in more than a few minor incidents, i would care.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

dog-man said:


> But the reason i specifically mentioned small dogs was because there are many owners of small dogs who are worried when they see a big dog coming.



You're kidding, right? I worry about my OWN big dogs around my little dogs. It doesn't matter how social or trained a dog is, you just never know. The size difference only increases the risk when two dogs are interacting together.

As for your off leash experience, I agree with those who say that if you are not in a place where it is LEGAL to have your dog off leash you are breaking the law and should be held responsible. If you can't control your dog, don't expect other people to be thrilled with your decision to let him run free and should something happen, keep your checkbook handy.


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

Ok, I think there are some subtleties here. 

There are leash laws and then there are leash laws, just like any other rule. It may be the "law," but if the customary understanding in a community is that dogs are allowed off leash on the beach during off season, and the poodles' owners know this, as they clearly do if they have been there before, then they should expect loose dogs to be there when they walk their dogs. As anyone who's ever been anywhere with off leash dogs knows, whether or not it is ideal, not all loose dogs have perfect recall or ask permission to go up to other dogs....so they should expect that too and either walk somewhere else or be prepared to encounter loose dogs when they come to the beach when other dogs are present. 

The OP should watch their dog and direct it away from leashed dogs, just as he should watch for aggressive unleashed dogs and direct his dohs to avoids those situations as well. (and I believe he stated that dog did not fully approach the poodles, so this seems basically to have happened). For the future, the way to avoid this situation would be to call your dog to you when there is a leashed or aggressive dog, then let him go back to playing once they go on there way. 

The only proviso I would add here is that customary or not, if something does happen, the person who is breaking the law by having an off leash dog, even if he is only technically doing so, would probably be found to be in the wrong if anything ever does go seriously wrong.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

I've been on both sides at different times.

I also get sort of annoyed when I run into dog owners with unfriendly dogs at certain trails etc where many people go to let their dogs run off leash and socialize. Is it a leash free area? No. But when you have multiple dogs getting along (people are always walking, it's not a standing around with the dogs place) passing each other and coexisting and then someone comes in with an unfriendly dog on leash and suddenly everything changes. I hate how an unfriendly dog can ruin the outing for the rest of the dogs and I have felt at times, why doesn't the owner walk the dog on the sidewalk where all dogs should be leashed. Of course, they have as much right to be there as me and in fact are in the right, but it's still annoying.

However, I also believe that if you let you dog off leash in a non-off leash area they should have decent listening skills and the owner has to keep a look out for other people/dogs etc. If I'm at a place like that and I see someone coming, I'll leash the dogs until I get a handle on who they are, do they have dogs, are they friendly etc.

I just came out to Vancouver Island. I've been here a few days and I am loving the dog friendly area. I've never experienced something like this. I've found this beach area and sure it's off season but there are always a lot of people there. There are people with dogs, people without dogs, kids, older people, joggers etc and 95% of the dogs are off leash not really playing together for the most part but walking along the beach with their owners. Nobody freaks out and all the dogs are very well behaved. I haven't seen any dogs jumping or running away from the owners or anything and it makes me think that by living with dogs like they do here, it makes it easier on the dogs to co-exist with humans because they are used to being in those situations.


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## Melou1889 (Feb 26, 2008)

I'm just confused as to why everyone thinks its generalized as small-aggressive dogs. I'm pretty sure it says small OR aggressive which can generalize as almost any dog.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

"i am willing to bend or break laws (and risk tickets), for the sake of my pooch, if i believe i am still being responsible."

Neat! Being responsible = breaking the law.


"we often go to a park at night, where it is officially ALWAYS off-limits to dogs.
the cops say they don't mind, because no one is being bothered (and i do clean up)."

Nice, even the cops are responsible! Do you suppose they'll say they said it was okay in court?


"when we go to the beach, the beach is usually totally empty.
when there are people and dogs, we have positive experiences.
oinest is good and he listens (most of the time)."

He is good and listens... by running up on other dogs and setting them off. Setting off dogs who are trying to enjoy the park legally is a positive experience, so that must explain why we're having this discussion. Awesome.


"i really don't care if the owners of the vicious poodles have the legal right.
so i'm legally wrong...i can shoulder that."

This isn't all about the vicious Poodles. The next dog your dog sets off might be walking with it's family and redirect it's aggression to a child. I sure hope you can shoulder that.


"if i was bothering people in more than a few minor incidents, i would care."

Now that you've been made aware of the consequences, perhaps you will care enough to make a change in how you manage your dog in public places BEFORE a major incident occurs.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

the most amazing thing i find about starting a thread on a controversial topic:

i find myself on the defensive for things i did not say at all (someone is really responding to a past argument they had with someone else)...or for words purposefully twisted from their original context...or for mere misinterpretations.

i do not say i am right and someone else is wrong.

i am saying that oinest is good and almost all dog owners love him...and i try to limit myself to places and times that will minimize problems.

the few incidents which do occur, such as the vicious poodle incident, is not enough to make me change.
my pooch needs to run free.

all the problems which people have had with dog-owners more irresponsible than myself is interesting (and i do feel bad), but not that relevant to my own decisions.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Melou1889 said:


> I'm just confused as to why everyone thinks its generalized as small-aggressive dogs. I'm pretty sure it says small OR aggressive which can generalize as almost any dog.



I think it's because he keeps mentioning small dogs and at one point he does say small and/or agressive.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

POOHLP: Ok, I think there are some subtleties here. 



DOG-MAN: i think i love you


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

I agree the small/aggressive dog thing is a mischaracterization of the OP's intent. And what is wrong with saying that small OR aggressive dogs tend to be the ones that have problems with his dog, particularly if that is his experience? That is probably fair and reasonable....small dogs are more likely to be fear aggressive towards a large unleashed dog and aggressive just to be aggressive towards one. People are getting a burr down their pants for no reason. Whether or not the OP is in the right for being on the beach is a matter for debate, but picking on the the small/aggressive thing is off point for sure.



dog-man said:


> DOG-MAN: i think i love you


 I get that a lot. I'm pretty easy to love...


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## georgygirl (Nov 28, 2006)

If you're going to let your dog off leash in a restricted area you should be able to call your dog back to you if another dog is coming. It shouldn't be allowed to run up to people or other dogs. If you want to see if they'll let their dog play with yours, ask first. Simple as that. Otherwise you're being irresponsible and annoying. I have a smaller dog too. I don't know if the huge dog racing toward me is friendly or not. I'm not going to risk it. I value my dogs life too much. That's why people should go to specific OFF LEASH areas (like a dog park) if they want to give their dogs "freedom" like every responsible owner does instead of breaking the law.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

dog-man said:


> the most amazing thing i find about starting a thread on a controversial topic:
> 
> i find myself on the defensive for things i did not say at all (someone is really responding to a past argument they had with someone else)...or for words purposefully twisted from their original context...or for mere misinterpretations.
> 
> ...



I probably would love oinest. I'm sure he's a great dog. However, here's the question...I guess you are willing to risk the safety of others as well as your dog for the time he has on the beach. If your pooch needs to run free, buy some land. dont jeapordize the safety and comfort levels of everyone else. Again, you are narcissistic in your thinking. You are putting your feeling (your feeling that your dog has more rights than others) above everyone else. This also comes with a legal, safety and ethical risks. 

You're argument is kind of like saying a drunk driver should be able to drive in his own neighborhood because no one is usually out driving at that time. Everyone is doing it. Its okay, because you've only hit a mailbox or two, or swiped a curve. Noone got hurt. Only a minor bump. I'm willing to take that risk. Give me a ticket...I can take it. I need to be able to get home. It's a weak argument. 

I'm not saying your a drunk, I'm just making a comparison of the argument. You are a risk taker...and are willing to risk your dog and others safety and comfort for the enjoyment you get out of watching your dog run on the beach. IMO, it's irresponsible. 

dog-man: i do not say i am right and someone else is wrong.

So, what are you trying to say? Everyone should be happy to see your dog running on the beach? I'd hate to see the thing that did make you change your thoughts on this subject.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

If you want your dog off leash, train it to stay near you and never approach others. See, easy fix! By the way, many dogs are just leash-reactive not aggressive. Ollie doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body. He is, however, Leash Reactive. When a dog is on a leash, and a off-leash dog approaches him, they have a fight or flight instinct, but since they are on a leash, "Flight' is out of question so they fight.

If your dog approached Ollie, He'd be pulling and look completely aggressive to your dog as it approached. That doesn't make him an aggressive dog. I've been working hard at getting his leash reactivity fixed, but ALL it takes is ONE incident and I'm back to square one. Your off leash dog is making my training harder.

So yeah, you're an ass for letting your dog off leash with apparently, no recall, no manners, and a pretty aggressive demeandor to my leashed dog.


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

Amen RBark!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i am saying that oinest is good and almost all dog owners love him...and i try to limit myself to places and times that will minimize problems.
> 
> the few incidents which do occur, such as the vicious poodle incident, is not enough to make me change.
> my pooch needs to run free.
> ...


if your 'oinest' ran up to my shepherd (who is next to me under my control) i don't care how much he loves running free or you love seeing him come up to my dog or how non aggressive either dog is behaving, your loose dog is going to get a taste of my cattle prod if you do not keep him with you. 

i do not let my dog 'socialize' with off leash dogs who approach un bidden. period and end of story. 

it is impolite, and i don't like it. i have no idea if oinest will remain friendly, if atka will remain friendly or if your dog is a health hazard to my dog. 

i hope we never meet because that will be the outcome.....


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## Pax (Dec 19, 2007)

An interesting article on big, goofy, friendly dogs (the kind that I, personally, love, but my dog is not so crazy about):

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/sayhi.html


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I don't mind dogs off leash, as long as they behave as if they were on leash.

I don't mind Rocky, a GSD mix who's Beav's best buddy and often off leash at the park. He's a good dog, who returns as soon as his owner calls him back. 

I do mind Jingles, a black lab who's owner is always yelling at ("JINGLES! JIIIIINNNGGGGLLLLLEEES! Get back here, Jingles!") who comes barrelling at us full speed from across the park. The owner is an older guy who drives the dog to the park (not an off leash park) to let the dog run. He just sits at or in his truck while the dog does his own thing. And of course, when he sees us hightailing in the other direction, the owner always yells, "He don't bite!" (Uh... sorry if I don't believe you. I have scars from a neighbor's dog who "don't bite" who attacked me when I was ten. The words mean nothing.) I always yell, "But mine MIGHT!"

Beavis likes most dogs he meets, but not all. Without a safe introduction with *both* owners present, I don't want to take the chance of him not liking the other dog and starting something he can't finish.


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## the mama (Dec 28, 2007)

sheltiemom said:


> I often think it's odd that so many people don't want their dogs approached by other dogs, even when both dogs are on leash. Are there really that many people out there walking aggressive dogs that can't be approached? Why does it seem so many more dogs are unsocialized these days?


I don't want my dog approached by other dogs, as she is leash aggressive, and I'm working with her to overcome that. She was very well socialized as a pup and young dog, but circumstances later changed (divorce, emotional trauma, moving, single-owner, my not understanding what was going on with her, etc, etc, etc), and now we're working on it. I'm not a bad person, and no one I know would call me grumpy (I'm one of those perpetually perky people).

I do tell people who seem to want their dog to meet mine, that she's not good with other dogs, and we're in training. Most people are quite understanding. Others... well, there's always those ones.


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## gills (Mar 16, 2008)

dog-man, I sympathise. A dog does have to run, and there are way too many communities that don't give dog owners reasonable access to public spaces. So I, like you, spent many wayward years ignoring the leash laws in various parts of Canada and getting away with it. 

However, I think you're missing an important point. If you are getting away with it, it's because the community has decided to look the other way. It's an incredible privilege and very fragile one at that. Every single dog owner who enjoys the community's tolerance has to be aware that it only takes a few incidents and a few pissed off people to ruin it for everyone. That's reason enough to be hyper-vigilant NOT to piss anyone off. They have the law on their side, you don't. So my advice is exercise some discipline in setting your dog free; train him train him train him; and be super considerate of anyone else you share the space with. Take the feedback you've received in this thread to heart. 

You can complain now, but you'll have more to complain about if the community cracks down and starts enforcing the leash law.


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## BernerGuy (Mar 27, 2008)

This is just something people are not going to agree about. To me it matters more the dogs behavoir. This doesn't bother me as much as some things do though. You know when you go to the mall and you see kids on those leashes you think 'wow that must really stink to be that kid". Personally I think there are more bad kids than bad dogs but thats for the other board. Or When you are forced to go to Wal-Mart and the lady in front of you is complaining how long the line is. Then she has her entire extended family in the check out line and when it comes time to pay she digs in her purse for 5 minutes holding up the line. It never occurs to people that it takes so long to check out because of people just like them.

Okay back to subject both sides can be argued. Most don't want a dog and here is where BIG Dogs get the bad rap coming up to them off leash. Others don't like the dog large or small that is on leash and totally out of the owners' control as it is jumping back and forth and when they walk it 10' in front of the owner. I guess people need to have something to argue about it makes them feel smart when they 'know" they are right.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I also dont know/understand where "small" comes into this

Im an advocate for the breeds i own but lets live in the real world here what should i worry about more when walking my dogs,the small snappy barker or the off leash Pit/Bully?

Obviously the latter,i love small dogs with attitude they make me laugh and infact my dogs seem to prefer smaller dogs as friends,being they socialize alot with a JRT,Yorkie and westie.

The offleash thing just shouldnt happen at all unless you have an extremly well trained dog and even then when the "not so well trained" dog is running at yours it still spells trouble as it becomes "defend yourself" or be torn apart.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

here's something to think about:

think about the number of times in the past year that there was an incident between your dog and another dog...especially if you have an aggressive or nervous dog.

let's say the number of incidents are higher or more serious than my own.

if someone decides to get a difficult dog (or just does a bad job), and then subsequently follows all laws, and also tries to use good judgement...

are they automatically more responsible than me, who first made sure to obtain and raise the sweetest dog possible...but then i do break rules ?

responsibility in dog ownership is MULTI-FACETED.

i don't think anyone should be on their high horse, unless they truly believe their "dog responsibility" is impeccable, in every area.

maybe my overall score is higher than yours, even though lower in some areas, such as this.


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

I DO think that somebody who has a difficult dog, on leash, minding their own business IS more responsible than you... who lets your dog run up to random strangers and dogs. It doesn't matter how sweet your dog is, the fact is that many people (and dogs!) find that behavior offensive and will react appropriately.

I said before (as have a few others) that having an off lead dog is totally fine in some circumstances. I have no problem with breaking that rule (law, in most areas) if your dog can control himself and not go bounding up to people without invitation. But according to your story, that's not whats going on. I don't think it's the off lead situtation that people are getting on you about... it's the fact that you were acting rude/inconsiderate, and then blaming it on people/dogs that were minding their own business.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

dog-man said:


> here's something to think about:
> 
> 
> "IM THINKING"
> ...


I'll just finish by saying ive not always been as responsible as i should have,im glad i saw the error of my ways before either mine or somebody elses dog was injured so im not attacking you here.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes, I do think someone with a difficult dog that is obeying the LAW and minding their own business is more responsible. I think that's obvious. They're trying to work on their socialization whereas you just don't seem to care what harm comes of your dog running around at people. You don't seem to care if it runs over to leash reactive/possibly dog aggressive dogs- it's the poodle owner's fault. They shouldn't have leash reactive dogs.  I guess similarly small dogs shouldn't be there as a large dog running at them can cause them to be afraid? Or people with children should not go there? Or people who don't like dogs or those who are allergic because your dog has a poor recall and is allowed approach whoever.

It is egotistical sounding to say the least. Be a bit considerate. you are not the only person using the park or the beach. If your dog is bothering someone who is enjoying the said park/beach then yes, you are in the wrong.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

You know, it still amazes me how many people think their dogs should be able to run free and meet/greet anyone they so please.

My dog IS leash aggressive. She will not tolerate anything running up to her and in fact, should your dog do so - he'd promptly be bit in the face. However, I keep her on leash, close to my side and away from other animals. I CONTROL my dog so that we may enjoy walking down the street or through the park as other owners might.

I did not get my dog to be a community pet. I don't mind socializing and introducing Dakota when I am asked first and if I judge the situation to be a safe one. Other then that, your off leash dog had best stay the hell away from us. Bottom line.

Oh, and perhaps it has something to do with being attacked several times. Maybe if I hadn't had to fend off dogs in the past because ignorant owners did not have them in hand, I'd feel differently. This isn't a perfect world though, and as such you need to offer the same courtesies to your fellow dog owners that they offer to you.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

CHICSTER: have no problem with breaking that rule (law, in most areas) if your dog can control himself and not go bounding up to people without invitation. But according to your story, that's not whats going on.

DOG-MAN:
what amazes me, is that if you read any or all of my posts, WHAT IS GOING ON, is that Oinest is NOT bounding up to people or dogs.
why are so many posters against acting as if i said he was?
-------------------------

one other point for those of you who think that the vicious poodle owner is a responsible owner.

i'm sure many of you cheer when someone rescues a dog with tempermanent issues, and is going to try to work with the dog.

personally, i think it irresponsible to the neighborhood children and dogs, and likely irresponsible to the family.
however, it is a WONDERFUL gesture to the dog, and perhaps is the right decision.

so, how is that so different from my decision to think about what is best for Oinest; to give him freedom, even though it can be a minor nuisance occasionally.
all the imagnined scenarios thrown my way just haven't come close to happening.
i'm sure much more has occurred with the difficult rescue dogs (and the owners of the vicious poodles).

does legality mean everything and results nothing?


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

The difference is - someone rescuing a problem dog should NOT be a nuisance to the neighbor kids, you dog, you, anyone. A responsible owner would have that dog in control 24/7. If they don't or can't, then they have no business taking on the task of training such an animals.

You do not have control of your dog when he is off 'gaining his freedom'. YOU are providing more then a minor nuisance for some people, and you are going to be the only one to blame when Oinest runs into a dog that really doesn't appreciate his forthcoming gestures.

...and if your dog isn't approaching anyone that I really am missing the point of this topic. What reactions or hatred are you refering to from people, then?


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

dog-man said:


> all the problems which people have had with dog-owners more irresponsible than myself is interesting (and i do feel bad), but not that relevant to my own decisions.


OK, then what is the point of starting a topic if you aren't going to discuss freely and be open to change. I'm not saying you have to agree or have to change, but you're being very dismissive IMO. I'm not sure what you wanted to get out this. I thought it was to discuss but apparently discussion only counts if we agree with you or comment your story in particular. That's not how real coversation works.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

raquyx said:


> I will never understand letting your dog off leash to go frolic with other off leash dogs that it doesn't know. That's just asking for trouble. Sure, your own dog may not be dog agressive and have perfect recall, but I'll bet that you'll meet a dog in the park/at the beach that isn't quite as good as yours. It only takes one scuffle for a dog to become dog-aggressive for life. There is no need to put your dog in danger like that. They don't need to play "with their own kind."


I really hope you're kidding.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i'm sure many of you cheer when someone rescues a dog with tempermanent issues, and is going to try to work with the dog.


Now theres no denying this is a very valid point.

Though it does stray somewhat from your OP,but still valid.


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i'm sure many of you cheer when someone rescues a dog with tempermanent issues, and is going to try to work with the dog.
> 
> personally, i think it irresponsible to the neighborhood children and dogs, and likely irresponsible to the family.
> however, it is a WONDERFUL gesture to the dog, and perhaps is the right decision.
> ...



Ummm.... how is it a nuisance to the neighborhood if these "vicious poodles" were on a leash next to their owners, and not bothering anybody until your uninvited dog ran up to them? Your logic defies me.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Melou1889 said:


> I'm just confused as to why everyone thinks its generalized as small-aggressive dogs. I'm pretty sure it says small OR aggressive which can generalize as almost any dog.


Thank you! Gosh, thank you!


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

raquyx said:


> There is no need to put your dog in danger like that. They don't need to play "with their own kind."


Just see M.M.M post,i too must ask,this is a joke right?


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Chicster said:


> Ummm.... how is it a nuisance to the neighborhood if these "vicious poodles" were on a leash next to their owners, and not bothering anybody until your uninvited dog ran up to them? Your logic defies me.


Thank you. I agree. 

My dog is a shelter dog who doesn't like kids or other dogs. So I manage the issue and avoid too heavily trafficked areas. I am being responsible about my dog. He hasn't bitten anyone or done anything too obnoxious because I don't give him the chance. I recognize I am the one with the problem and either take him to the side, pick him up, bring treats to distract him or we don't go at all. So I don't see how my taking him out anyway would be a problem. How is he being a nuisance? Is it that he exists? Is it that those poodles exist? They were following the rules. You weren't.

You're being very selfish I think. Although the owners of the poodles are being a little dumb to keep taking their dogs to a place where there are frequently dogs off leash. They aren't managing the problem well.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Max'sHuman said:


> My dog is a shelter dog who doesn't like kids or other dogs. So I manage the issue and avoid too heavily trafficked areas. I am being responsible about my dog. He hasn't bitten anyone or done anything too obnoxious because I don't give him the chance. I recognize I am the one with the problem and either take him to the side, pick him up, bring treats to distract him or we don't go at all.


Now if everyone with a "problem" dog was as responsible as you wouldnt dog owning be easier


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Do I sense sarcasm Mr. Pooch?  I didn't mean to sound all preach-y or anything. I guess I'm on the defensive on the behalf of shelter dogs with temperment issues.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Chicster said:


> Ummm.... how is it a nuisance to the neighborhood if these "vicious poodles" were on a leash next to their owners, and not bothering anybody until your uninvited dog ran up to them? Your logic defies me.


Thank you!


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Max'sHuman said:


> Do I sense sarcasm Mr. Pooch?  I didn't mean to sound all preach-y or anything. I guess I'm on the defensive on the behalf of shelter dogs with temperment issues.


LOL,no M.H i really meant it,am i that unpredictable?

Seriously i read it and thought,do ya know what thats brilliant.

Mine are'nt rescues or agressive(well with blakes exception) but DF taught me alot about ownership,to me mine are a "problem" simply because if they were off leash and a fight broke out they could do serious damage.
I really respect you because you didnt need DF to teach you anything

Nowdays i take them places where they have freedom but there are no other dogs unless im with a friend and their dogs.

Sorry you thought i was being sarcastic.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Apparently from what I've read here by the OP people shouldn't have dogs that....

a) are leash reactive
b) are dog aggressive
c) could possibly be frightened of a strange large dog approaching them

....and anyone that....
a) Doesn't like dogs
b) is allergic to dogs
c) is afraid of dogs
d) doesn't appreciate strange dogs introducing themselves to them

should not be at the beach or anywhere that the OP deems suitable to run a dog off lead regardless of whether or not those dogs are under control and owners obeying the law simply because the OP dog likes 'to be free' and deserves to run around off leash.


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## Dog5 (Jan 13, 2008)

Personally it would scare me if a strange, unleashed dog approached me with Dominic, not for me and Dominic, but for the other dog because if he became too agressive then Dom would tear him apart, and I wouldn't wish that on another dog just because his owner didn't have him leashed.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I hate when dogs rush up on my dogs. I don't care if it is a 4 pound Chihuahua or a 180 pound Mastiff. I hate it! I am also thinking about investing in a cattle prod. I have a West Highland White Terrier in the neighborhood that is begging for it. It has latched on to my dog for the last time. Next time I kick or shock. I have had it, and so has my dog. I don't want him to defend himself because it could mean the end of that dog. Good rule of thumb if their is a leash law then use it. Try to get the Mayor to push for legal off leash dog areas.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Dog5 said:


> Personally it would scare me if a strange, unleashed dog approached me with Dominic, not for me and Dominic, but for the other dog because if he became too agressive then Dom would tear him apart, and I wouldn't wish that on another dog just because his owner didn't have him leashed.


Dom and Dom are sounding more alike each day

And its what im saying ,if mine are leashed and yours attacks well then when your sweeping your dog up off the floor then its not my fault,have some people not heard of a leash?


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

CHICSTER: Ummm.... how is it a nuisance to the neighborhood if these "vicious poodles" were on a leash next to their owners, and not bothering anybody until your uninvited dog ran up to them? Your logic defies me.

DOG-MAN: if you had read my original post, you would have read that Oinest cautiously approached the poodles, and went away when he saw they were vicious.
however, the poodles were already going out of their minds, trying to break off their leash to get at him.

and as far as the poodle owners mindiung their own business, these dogs are constantly having serious trouble...they are despised by all the other owners...little dogs, big dogs etc.
i don't see being within the law to be an excuse.
------------------------------------

LAURELIN, i can't even respond to you, because you twist what i say to such an extreme measure, it borders on the ridiculous.
----------------------

MAX: I thought it was to discuss but apparently discussion only counts if we agree with you or comment your story in particular. 

DOG-MAN: sorry if it comes off that way...i don't need to stick to my story...but because of subtleties of the issue, it is not relevant to me the stories of dogs and owners who are very irresponsible.

i have gotten so many responses from folks who act like we are having loads of trouble, and i just keep on whistling along.

the issue is dogs like oinest that are well trained and well behaved, but like anything else, there is a process of learning.

the minimum of problems is a testament to sound judgement, imho.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

My question for you dog-man is what your reaction would be if the on leash dog bite your perfectly friendly goofy dog? Who gets the blame for that?


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Good question Dobmaniac,my question is are there 2 dog-man here,as he keeps qouting dog-man??


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


> ------------------------------------
> 
> LAURELIN, i can't even respond to you, because you twist what i say to such an extreme measure, it borders on the ridiculous.


Lol, I think you ARE ridiculous so we're not going to be losing any sleep over that one. 

All I've seen is you sitting here and making excuses as to why none of this is your fault and why it's okay for your dog to approach people when it is uninvited.

Why is it that hard to be courteous to others at the park and not allow your dog to go over to them? (Or better yet why is it so hard to obey leash laws?)

You're asking for a confrontation. And yes, it will be your fault if it does happen.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Dob,

it would have been my fault for the direct incident...that is the chance i take...and the chances i take are based on the knowledge of my dog's behavior and my own reading of situations.

however, in general, i do find fault with dog-owners who have unsocialized dogs (for whatever reason) for any trouble that subsequently occurs.


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## Dog5 (Jan 13, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> You're kidding, right? I worry about my OWN big dogs around my little dogs. It doesn't matter how social or trained a dog is, you just never know. The size difference only increases the risk when two dogs are interacting together.
> 
> As for your off leash experience, I agree with those who say that if you are not in a place where it is LEGAL to have your dog off leash you are breaking the law and should be held responsible. If you can't control your dog, don't expect other people to be thrilled with your decision to let him run free and should something happen, keep your checkbook handy.


Exactly. When Dom or Finn are playing with the Chi's I always watch closely. If a large, unleashed dog approached one of my Chihuahuas I would be very scared and angry. The thought of one of my little ones being hurt is terrifying.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i am saying that oinest is good and almost all dog owners love him...and i try to limit myself to places and times that will minimize problems.
> 
> the few incidents which do occur, such as the vicious poodle incident, is not enough to make me change.
> my pooch needs to run free.
> ...


I'd be ticked off were I in the poodle owners shoes too. They had their dogs leashed, your unleashed dog was pestering them. If you had no intention of changing your irresponsible behaviour why bring up this topic at all. Did you really think people would tell you you were in the right here? Or is this simply an attempt to stir the pot? If your pooch needs to "run free" do it on your own property, not a public place. Having your dog off leash and letting him approach other people and animals without prior permission is not only extremely rude, but just begging for a disastrous situation.

BTW, it's off-leash dogs like yours that are why I had to start carrying pepper spray last summer to walk my dogs. My dogs are very social off lead, but you can never be sure about anyone else's dogs so mine stay on lead in public areas. Charlie can be leash-reactive if approached by a strange dog.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

for those of you who are reasonable, and yet consider me rigid, one thought:

the episode with the poodles happened about two years ago.

since then, i have researched and implemented techniques to better ensure oinest would be better under my control at the beach.

as well, i am quicker to leash him when i see potential trouble in the distance.

however, i have not changed my essential decision to let him run off-leash, and do not intend to do so.

even now, it is not perfect.

i intend to keep on improving.

usually, he comes when i tell him to come to be leashed.
however, a few weeks ago, when spotting dogs from a distance, he gave me this special look of his...the doggie equivalent of giving me the finger...and then ran off.

fortunately, the dog and human couple were typcial of those at our beach... they liked oinest and he liked them.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

dog-man said:


> Dob,
> 
> it would have been my fault for the direct incident...that is the chance i take...and the chances i take are based on the knowledge of my dog's behavior and my own reading of situations.
> 
> however, in general, i do find fault with dog-owners who have unsocialized dogs (for whatever reason) for any trouble that subsequently occurs.


I just don't understand why you would take the chance. It is your job to protect your dog. Allowing your dog to greet every Tom, **** and Harry on the beach is not the way to protect him. I own dobermans, and will be the first person to say I protect my dogs they don't protect me. I am the leader in this house, so that job falls to me. 

I also find it a little far fetched that you believe every dog that shows aggression is unsocialized. And if that dog is unsocialized. that they should not be allowed to go out in public places. Why should they have to follow rules, when you think that rules don't apply to you?



dog-man said:


> usually, he comes when i tell him to come to be leashed.
> however, a few weeks ago, when spotting dogs from a distance, he gave me this special look of his...the doggie equivalent of giving me the finger...and then ran off.
> 
> fortunately, the dog and human couple were typcial of those at our beach... they liked oinest and he liked them.


I think that is great, that you can laugh off your dogs complete disobedience. Good training there. What if in his need to run towards this other dog, and is complete disregard for you he got hit by a car. Would you be able to laugh it off so easily then.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

dog-man said:


> for those of you who are reasonable, and yet consider me rigid, one thought:
> 
> the episode with the poodles happened about two years ago.
> 
> ...




You should have said that to begin with. If you said that you were training him to stay away from people and have recall people would have reacted differently.

Also, dogs don't become leash reactive just by being undersocialized- a lot of it is because a OFF LEASH DOG BIT THEM while they are on leash.

Because of that, expect to see me kick your "friendly dog" if they approach MY friendly dogs.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Dieselsmama said:


> BTW, it's off-leash dogs like yours that are why I had to start carrying pepper spray last summer to walk my dogs.



Just wish that was legal here D's mama,to be honest i carry a hammer(also illegal to carry but i could always say i was returning it to my mum/dad etc)
There are just too many iresponsible owners near me not to have something to break up a potentiel "death" fight



dog-man said:


> the episode with the poodles happened about two years ago.
> 
> since then, i have researched and implemented techniques to better ensure oinest would be better under my control at the beach.



You should have said that in your OP.?



DobManiac said:


> I also find it a little far fetched that you believe every dog that shows aggression is unsocialized.



True,may not be to everybodys likeing but there are times a dog shows agression for a reason.
Also if its on a leash its far less intimidating.



Dog5 said:


> Exactly. When Dom or Finn are playing with the Chi's I always watch closely. If a large, unleashed dog approached one of my Chihuahuas I would be very scared and angry. The thought of one of my little ones being hurt is terrifying.


Me too Dog5,Bless rules the roost here but simply due to Aslans increasing size i keep an eye on his behaviour towards my little bubba(even though he loves her alot you can never be too careful)


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## salask (Jul 31, 2007)

Last summer, i took Bubba to the Dog Beach. Bubba is not the best around other dogs so i kept him on a leash and close to me at all times. The couple that was sitting to our right, had a papallion that was extremely friendly and bull dog who really wasn't doing much. The Papallion kept wanting to play with his pal but the bulldog didn't seem much interested. So the Papallion ran to us wanting to play with Bubba. To my surprise Bubba didn't seem to mind that the Papallion was there but when the doggie jumped on my lap, Bubba got aggresive and my husband pulled him away from me. The owners of the Papallion saw this and called their dog over but the doggie remained on my lap. They apologized from afar but they didn't bother to come and take their dog back. Needless to say, the doggie reamained on my laps or on my side and eventually Bubba got over it (my husband calmed him down) but wanted nothing to do with the Papallion. 




dog-man said:


> however, in general, i do find fault with dog-owners who have unsocialized dogs (for whatever reason) for any trouble that subsequently occurs.


Had my Bubba bitten the Papallion, i DON'T BELIEVE Bubba would have been at fault. Perhaps this Papallion was as lovable as Oinest (i fell in love with Papallion) but that still doesn't make it right. We were minding our own business and this little sucker jumps on my laps! Not to mention the owners that just assumed it was ok?! For all of YOU that think it's ok for a dog to run up against another dog, YOU ARE JUST BEING RUDE! Sorry dog-man but your're in the wrong.


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## Dog5 (Jan 13, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Me too Dog5,Bless rules the roost here but simply due to Aslans increasing size i keep an eye on his behaviour towards my little bubba(even though he loves her alot you can never be too careful)


Right...because the big boys could hurt the smaller ones without even trying to - one stomp of the big paw. And I know it hurts because I'VE been stomped by Dominic's big paw!


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## the mama (Dec 28, 2007)

dog-man said:


> Dob,however, in general, i do find fault with dog-owners who have unsocialized dogs (for whatever reason) for any trouble that subsequently occurs.


So what is it you propose? Apparently, you are against leash/dog-aggressive dogs being controlled and on leash in the outdoors. So, they should be... what? Locked indoors for the rest of their lives? Be euthanized? If your dog needs to run free, why does my dog not need to at least exercise?? Because your dog is "good" and my dog is "bad"??

Some breeds are, by their very nature, not very sociable. Some dogs just don't have really outgoing personalities. Some dogs have been traumatized, or abused. 


My dog is leash aggressive, and I walk her on her leash every day. She is controlled, and I am working with her on her issues with other dogs. She was traumatized, after being thoroughly socialized. She is a dominant personality. 

I love her, she brings great joy to me, my family, my friends. She is not perfectly friendly to other dogs, and she can be aggressive to other, uncontrolled dogs who approach her. I warn the owners that she has issues with other dogs. 

What do you propose we do with all of these un-perfect dogs who pose such a threat to unleashed dogs?


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## Dog5 (Jan 13, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Dom and Dom are sounding more alike each day
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Dom do we need to leash you??!!


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Dog5 said:


> Mr Pooch said:
> 
> 
> > Dom and Dom are sounding more alike each day
> ...


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

DOBMANIAC: And if that dog is unsocialized. that they should not be allowed to go out in public places.

THE MAMA: Apparently, you are against leash/dog-aggressive dogs being controlled and on leash in the outdoors.

WHEN DID I SAY OR EVEN IMPLY THAT?
however, just like i am careful where and when i take oinest off-leash, i believe people with aggressive dogs also need to give careful thought where they go, and not just rely on their RIGHT.

and just like i have to take responsibility if something happens when he is off-leash, they need to see their responsibility in merely having an unsocialized, aggressive dog...they are often a ticking timebomb...no one has perfect control at all times over their pooch.
------------------

DOBMANIAC: What if in his need to run towards this other dog, and is complete disregard for you he got hit by a car

NOT TOO MANY CARS ON THE BEACH.
-------------------
SALASK: For all of YOU that think it's ok for a dog to run up against another dog, YOU ARE JUST BEING RUDE! Sorry dog-man but your're in the wrong.

WHEN DID I SAY IT WAS OK FOR HIM TO RUN UP AGAINST ANOTHER DOG?
i've stated many times that he doesn't do that.
if he gets a friendly reaction, then he will...he was wrong once as a pup at the dog park, and never again.
-----------------

the interesting thing about many dog people...if you think differently, they think it necessary to magnify your "sin", so that you appear to be the equivalent of a psychopath.
i have a well-behaved, well-socialized, happy dog...i make his happiness a priority...and because of a few minor incidents over 3 years, the reaction has been quite strong from quite a few people.

there's more than one way of doing things.

as oinest often tells me "there is more than one way to skin a cat".


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

dog-man said:


> WHEN DID I SAY OR EVEN IMPLY THAT?
> however, just like i am careful where and when i take oinest off-leash, i believe people with aggressive dogs also need to give careful thought where they go, and not just rely on their RIGHT.


Yes, because god knows one should expect off leash dogs in an area where it is clearly against the rules.  You should always be alert - but it baffles me that you think someone should excuse their right because you make the choice to break the rules.



> and just like i have to take responsibility if something happens when he is off-leash, they need to see their responsibility in merely having an unsocialized, aggressive dog...they are often a ticking timebomb...no one has perfect control at all times over their pooch.


True enough. That isn't the issue here though. If your dog approached said aggressive animal and was injured, you are the one that would be slammed in court or otherwise. You are the one that didn't have control of your dog in such an instance.



> the interesting thing about many dog people...if you think differently, they think it necessary to magnify your "sin", so that you appear to be the equivalent of a psychopath.
> i have a well-behaved, well-socialized, happy dog...i make his happiness a priority...and because of a few minor incidents over 3 years, the reaction has been quite strong from quite a few people.
> 
> there's more than one way of doing things.
> ...


Hrm, I would not put your actions anywhere near that of a psychopath - nor do I see anyone else doing so. 

Now, perhaps if you had stated ALL of the information in your original post (for example, that fact that this occurred over two years ago) you would have received a different reaction. You can't expect to add details after the fact and then blame people for the way they acted. All we have to go on in what you post - at that time. We can't read your mind.


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## salask (Jul 31, 2007)

SALASK: For all of YOU that think it's ok for a dog to run up against another dog, YOU ARE JUST BEING RUDE! Sorry dog-man but your're in the wrong.

WHEN DID I SAY IT WAS OK FOR HIM TO RUN UP AGAINST ANOTHER DOG?

dog-man: I'm sorry, i didn't mean you were in the wrong by letting your dog run up against another dog. I know you never said that. I meant you were in the wrong by saying:
"however, in general, i do find fault with dog-owners who have unsocialized dogs (for whatever reason) for any trouble that subsequently occurs"


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

dog-man said:


> DOBMANIAC: And if that dog is unsocialized. that they should not be allowed to go out in public places.



So, how exactly do you go about socializing a dog if they can't go in public places???


Sort of an oxymoron


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## SammyDog (May 21, 2007)

Im not gonna lie. I break the leash law at least 5 times per day. 

The funniest thing happened at the park today. Mags was off leash chasing squirrels and what not. She finds a nice big fat one and decides to chase it, we see her going full blast behind a line of trees. Then 2 seconds later we see her flying out with a big German Shepherd chasing her. Oh how the tables turned so quick, it was hysterical. Mags loves that shepherd now after playing for a hour straight.

I like it when I see off leashed dogs at my park, just more dogs for everyone to meet and play with.


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## the mama (Dec 28, 2007)

dog-man said:


> DOBMANIAC: And if that dog is unsocialized. that they should not be allowed to go out in public places.
> 
> THE MAMA: Apparently, you are against leash/dog-aggressive dogs being controlled and on leash in the outdoors.
> 
> WHEN DID I SAY OR EVEN IMPLY THAT?


Well, here:

Originally Posted by dog-man 
*i really don't care if the owners of the vicious poodles have the legal right.*

And, here:
*i'm sure many of you cheer when someone rescues a dog with tempermanent issues, and is going to try to work with the dog.

personally, i think it irresponsible to the neighborhood children and dogs, and likely irresponsible to the family.*

For me,that is certainly implying that you don't think they should be out in the neighborhood (even on leash). Apparently, I'm not the only one who inferred this from your postings.

You seem to have a definate bias against any dog, and their owner, who is not the perfect model of doggie-good-citizenship. 

IMO.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

FWIW my GSD is not leash aggressive in the least. 

If I read the poodle story right, Oinest saw the poodles were aggressive and backed off, but he would not back off if the dog appeared friendly. he'd just keep on a comin' cuz EVERYONE just LOVES Ol' Oinest. 

As such, my dog would appear friendly and Oinest would keep on a coming because he may not have the best recall (you have him off leash and he is better but you are _ working on it?????_ Geeze loueeze). So, Oinest would see that Atka is friendly and keep on coming and there I would be nailing his sorry butt with my cattle prod (and wishing like mad I was nailing his owner instead). I would likely be using a few choice expletives which you would not hear over Oinest's yelps!

See, this is how I work it. I Like my dog to play with other dogs she has not met before in a controlled situation. This means first meeting the other dog and owner w/o my dog there. Seeing the other dog play with dogs if possible. Other owner doing same with my dog. Discussing if their dog is UTD on shots etc. 

Then, going to a controlled environment, like a place with a FENCE to see if the two dogs hit it off. THEN letting them play. 

Quite honestly, some lunk of a loose dog coming up to mine in an uncontrolled environment like a Beach just begs for the cattle prod to come out. 

Sorry but that is STILL my reaction and my dog hasn't ever raised a hackle at another dog.. not one time in her life. 

If you have ever read Lonesone Dove there was a scene where Captain Call beat the daylights out of a man. After, people were standing around somewhat aghast at the scene they had just witnessed. Call explained it by saying, "I hate it when a man talks rude." He then rode off. 

Well, Dog-man, I hate it when someone allows their dog to be rude. People who have loose dogs who bounce up to mine are being rude. This is why I carry a cattle prod. One jolt of that baby and I am willing to bet you would never hear a sound like that out of ol' Oinest again and you might be chasing him for a few days trying to get him back. 

Your risk, not mine.


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## the mama (Dec 28, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Quite honestly, some lunk of a loose dog coming up to mine in an uncontrolled environment like a Beach just begs for the cattle prod to come out.


Elana... I'm just curious... have you ever had a dog-owner get mad at you for using the cattleprod?

And, where do you get one?

They're not considered a "weapon?"

How long is it? Is it cumbersome to carry?

Have you ever had to use it on a person?!

Does it do any damage, or just a heckuva jolt?

Is it disabling, or just shocking?

thanks for any info!


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Well that seems a bit extreme. But I can see your point. I guess when a dog is running to you you don't have time to judge body language or be too thoughtful about it. But it just sounds so harsh. I guess that's your job to protect your dog. I know one day I saw a large dog of undetermined breed giving Max the eye. He started to walk towards us and I picked Max up, my adrenaline was racing and I knew without a doubt that I would fight and do whatever it took to protect my Maxi. Even if it meant getting my butt kicked or seriously injuring the other dog. So, I guess I can appreciate the sentiment.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

JENTn: So, how exactly do you go about socializing a dog if they can't go in public places???

DOG-MAN: I think they can go in public places...but i don't think a beach, which is known by all the neighborhood to be a regular place for off-leash dogs, is the right place for aggressive dogs, even if they have a legal right.

even if there are other places that also are a problem, i'm sure the owners can still find plenty of "safe" places.

i look hard and wide to find the right places for oinest to go off-leash...i don't just pick anywhere that looks fun.

there are many pooches besides oinest that enjoy the beach off-season...as a group, we discuss ways to be sure the right is not taken away because of irresponsible behavior by any of us.

and fortunately, i have not seen the poodles since, even though they live in the neighborhood...i'm sure they were able to find alternatives, without spoiling the party for every one else.
------------------------------------

THE MAMA, quoting me, to make a point:

"i'm sure many of you cheer when someone rescues a dog with tempermanent issues, and is going to try to work with the dog.

personally, i think it irresponsible to the neighborhood children and dogs, and likely irresponsible to the family."
---------------

MAMA'S reaction: 
For me,that is certainly implying that you don't think they should be out in the neighborhood (even on leash). Apparently, I'm not the only one who inferred this from your postings.
-------------

now me (sorry, i can't figure out the "quote" tool):

MAMA, if you sincerely wanted to quote me accurately, why did you leave out the very next line?:

"however, it is a WONDERFUL gesture to the dog, and perhaps is the right decision."

i am not necessarily against the adoption of problem dogs...like many choices, there are good and bad points...i do see it as a decision with potential serious consequences.

my difficulty is in understanding why so many can applaud this act with no criticism, but freak out by my questionable decision to let a good dog off leash in limited circumstances.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

What kind of dog do you have? 

How old is your dog? I'm assuming around 4 from your posts. 

Do you allow your dog approach strangers (dog or person). 

Do you think it is okay for your dog to approach people and dogs off leash at his own pleasure? 

If so, why?

Is it your general opinion that if a dog is somewhat trained, that they should be allowed off leash in any public place? EDIT: I was away for a minute..I think you've answered this question that you pick and choose your locations. That's good. 

Why do you keep calling the poodles "viscious" Give us concrete answers as to why the poodles are viscious. 

What other types of "incidents" have you had?

I guess I'm trying to figure out what the point of this discussion is. What are you trying to get at. Are you trying to make the point that it should be okay for oinest to be on the beach off-leash because he's cute, loveable, somewhat trained, and everybody loves him. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just want to know what the point of all this is. 

Your OP lacked some valuable information, however, I still think you are being a little self centered in your thinking.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Your OP lacked some valuable information, however, I still think you are being a little self centered in your thinking.


I agree M'N'R anyway i love small dogs and so do my crew.


ASLAN AND ALFIE,UNLIKE SOME HE DOES'NT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SMALL"AGRESSIVE" DOGS,I TOLD MY FRIEND ABOUT THIS DEBATE TONIGHT AND SHE JUST LAUGHED,SHE HELD THEM WHILST I SNAPPED AWAY.

BULLMASTIFF AND JRT,BEST BUDDIES


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## the mama (Dec 28, 2007)

dog-man said:


> MAMA, if you sincerely wanted to quote me accurately, why did you leave out the very next line?:
> 
> "however, it is a WONDERFUL gesture to the dog, and perhaps is the right decision."


Because that very next line doesn't negate the first line. It IS a wonderful gesture for the dog. However, you still stated that it's irresponsible to the neighborhood, etc, etc. 

That's why.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

dog-man said:


> here's something to think about:
> 
> think about the number of times in the past year that there was an incident between your dog and another dog...especially if you have an aggressive or nervous dog.
> 
> ...


Okay I only read thru page 3, but it was getting pretty redundant. This post kind of struck me the wrong way.

I got Chance at 7 weeks old and he had parvo. I rescued him. because of this I could not bring him around other dogs for months. They wouldnt START his shots until he was 4 months old, and healthy enough. So he was about 5 or 6 months old before he met other dogs. He plays in doggy daycare with other dogs just fine. But if your dog (who does seem like a well behaved dog for the most part.) Came up to Chance, exactly as you described, very slow and cautious, Chance would TRY TO BITE HIS HEAD OFF! this does not make me a bad dog owner. This makes me an owner who is trying to work on my dogs leash aggression, and does not need other dogs running up to them. Also, you dont know how these 2 are communicating. My dog could be warning yours to stay away because he isnt sure of your dog and your dog could be coming over anyway. I think its great you have a place where your dog can run around, and IMO if your dog stayed by you, and did not approach other dogs without permission, than this thread would not be this many pages long. Not everyone likes to have dogs run up to them.

MY GUESS is the owners of the poodles, KNOWING their dogs are leash reactive, got scared and tense when they FIRST saw your dog off leash. So they tensed up, and their worries went right down the leash. Their dogs were then in protecting mode. Thats probably what happened.

If you train your dog to stay by you and ONLY approach other dogs when given permission, we would not be having this discussion.

Again, this is... only my opinion.



dog-man said:


> for those of you who are reasonable, and yet consider me rigid, one thought:
> 
> the episode with the poodles happened about two years ago.
> 
> ...


That information would have been very helpful in the beginning.

Also you said you find fault with undersocialized dogs. Read about Chance one more time and tell me if it was MY fault that a big tough guy decided to breed his GSD's and let them live OUT BACK in ARIZONA and let him get caked in dirt and have 6 tics in his EAR canals. And then let him be hooked up to an IV for 7 freaking days while his tiny little body STRUGGLED to survive, and his life hung in the balance because this schmuck wanted to make a hundred bucks. Tell me if it is MY fault that he didnt get to meet another dog till he was 6 months, and he is a litle skittish around people an dogs when he is on leash. I apologize if my dog is not perfect for you, but he is doing the best he can considering he probably thinks strangers are going to do the same thing that was done to him 10 months ago.

GEESH


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

dog-man said:


> here's something to think about:
> 
> think about the number of times in the past year that there was an incident between your dog and another dog...especially if you have an aggressive or nervous dog.
> 
> ...


Yes. If I have an aggressive or leash-reactive dog, the most responsible thing I can do is take her out to regain her foothold in socialization and keep her on a leash the entire time. What else would you recommend? Would it perhaps be more responsible of me to keep her at home the entire time? 

By going out with my dog on a leash, to an area where I know there may be dogs, I AM being responsible. I am being responsible to the community by keeping my dog on a leash, and I am being responsible to my dog by not locking her up and trying to solve her behavioural issues. How is that not being responsible?

Secondly, I don't know what kind of place you live in, but mayor, mayor's dog and cops aside, if off-leash dogs are prohibited, they are prohibited. That's final. I would not expect off-leash dogs in an area where there were leash laws; I would consider it a perfectly appropriate place for me to socialize my leash-reactive dog from a distance. If I went to an area where I thought off-leash dogs were not allowed, in an attempt to socialize my dog safely, and encountered an off-leash dog who set my dog off, thus undoing a heap of training, I would be pretty annoyed too. The fact is that if you are breaking laws, you are being irresponsible.

------------

Let me give you an example. Because of some construction going on near my area, there have been a lot of stray dogs gathering in my estate because the workers tend to toss them scraps and so on. About a month ago I was walking Spunky and this stray Akita-mix approaches us, NOT aggressively and not bounding towards us either. However, he and Spunky were obviously exchanging signals and it escalated. I ended up getting bitten on my ankle and screaming at the dog to scare it away. Thankfully, Spunky was not hurt.

Sure, the circumstances are quite different. The dog is a stray, thus untrained, the setting is different, etc. But I know just as much about the approaching stray Akita-mix as I do about your Oinest approaching me. I don't know his level of training, level of socialization, his personality, or anything. So am I supposed to assume that just because he is being allowed off-leash that he has been well-socialized and is going to behave well? Certainly not, and rightfully so.

Edit:
If your dog is not 100% reliable on recall, and you are working on it, then good for you, but he should not be off-leash in an unfenced area. No 100% recall, no off-leash in open areas. It's as simple as that. There are a ton of other things that could happen when he's off-leash, things that could harm him or endanger his life. I'm not trying to get on my high horse or anything, my dogs never have been off-leash a day in their lives and I can guarantee you they never will.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

dog-man said:


> CHINDO: If it's illegal to have a dog off leash in any area, you are doing a wrongful act, PERIOD.
> 
> DOG-MAN:
> well, that's a difference i have with many folks.
> ...


Ooooh, this topic really chaps my rear. My LEASHED Demo dog and I were walking in an ON LEASH area when two small dogs (I have 4 small dogs of my own so nothing against small dogs as a whole) attacked her. Another lady who was close by and I did everything to ensure that Sophie wasn't injured and/or she didn't kill the smaller aggressors. Sophie was not injured PHYSICALLY, *you can't imagine the damage that it caused her psychologically.*

There are leash laws for a reason and to ignore them is...well...just plain ignorant. You aren't doing your dog or the people/dogs who share the park space any favours.

BTW, due to this incident, Sophie has never attended classes with me again to do the job that she so enjoyed. I have spent, and continue to spend countless hours desensitizing her to other dogs. While she has made great progress, I'm now unable to trust my beautiful, amazing demo dog to do her job without putting her and my clients dogs at risk.

I now carry HALT and wouldn't hesitate to use it to protect her the next time.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> here's one scenario:
> 
> A husband and wife with two vicious standard poodles.
> (I found out later these dogs are infamous at the beach...in fact, one had bitten a dog just the day before.)
> ...



Well, bottom line, the people with the "vicious" Poodles were obeying the law, because their dogs were on leash. You were breaking the law. 

My two Standard Poodles are well socialized with beautiful manners, and far from "vicious," however, while at a park (and on leash, per law) a huge and wildly excited lab (off leash) rushed us, nearly knocking me over (he jumped up on me, hitting me in the chest). My female reared up, verbally cussed him out, and rammed him with her front feet when he kept jumping at us. My male barked, but promptly sat when I told him to. The lab's behavior was rude to the max. He got the message and, with tail between his legs, he hauled butt back to his owner. The lab's owner cussed ME out about my "vicious animals." 

I love dogs, and tolerate a lot of unwanted behaviors from other dogs, because I know the fault lies with the owners of these dogs. Some is due to ignorance, and some to arrogance. Again, no fault of the dog. Still, it's annoying.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I don't know why it takes 110 posts to get to this point but, if there is an "incident" between a leashed dog and an unleashed dog, the responsibility falls on the owner of the unleashed dog.

You can dispute that all you want, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a legal authority at any level that would disagree. As a dog-owner, that is also my sentiment.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

elana55

*Well, Dog-man, I hate it when someone allows their dog to be rude. People who have loose dogs who bounce up to mine are being rude. This is why I carry a cattle prod. One jolt of that baby and I am willing to bet you would never hear a sound like that out of ol' Oinest again and you might be chasing him for a few days trying to get him back.*

When you're right, you're right



RonE said:


> I don't know why it takes 110 posts to get to this point but, if there is an "incident" between a leashed dog and an unleashed dog, the responsibility falls on the owner of the unleashed dog.
> 
> You can dispute that all you want, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a legal authority at any level that would disagree. As a dog-owner, that is also my sentiment.


Isn't this also an entitlement issue, some children being raised and nurtured by modern parents last 10 to 20 years seem to have no boundaries. Whatever the kids wanted they got, whatever they wanted to do they did. With no consequences, then when in the real world leaving the dog running loose on beach is just another step in their entitlement program. I want to do it, I will do it. Ettiquette, whether it's on the beach, dog park, or waiting in line for a movie is a thing of the past. Just reading some of the dog park threads are mind-boggling, that people would be that rude or in some cases that stupid.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

wvasko said:


> When you're right, you're right


More like "when you have a cattle prod, you're right"


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree with Ron and WVasko (amazing this is twice now lolol) 

I have a girl that was attacked at ten weeks by 3 chessies who ran off their property while we were walking her on leash on our road. The owner was very remorseful.... my husband got bit (we think by my girl who was tryign to protect herself in the commotion) the dogs owners had shut their electric fence off..... 
I hate those damned things.... 

but in either case she is now 8 and is a little quick to jump when a dog runs up to her..... especially a rude 8 mos. old..... We keep her on leash at all times and my husband tries to take her to the park at 5am to prevent running into other people.... I can't tell you how upset I get at people who let their dogs run but dont have voice control of their dog.... if you can call your dog back and put that dog into heel position I have no problem with your dog off leash.... but if you have your dog off leash then you better have voice control of your dog.... 

I don't care if its a big dopey puppy or not..... it upsets my girl on our walk..... where she is leashed and within feet of us.... that big dopey puppy invaded her space..... and is rude..... and I have no qualms about taking care of that myself to avoid upsetting her..... and reinforcing her fear..... 

The other part of this is ..... 

even if she was not fearful.... even if she was a big old dopey dog too..... YOU NEVER KNOW if dogs are going to like each other..... you never know if that normally calm dog is all of a sudden going to take offense at your dog.... 
I have seen dogs that are normally fine with every other dog decide that they don't like one specific dog for whatever reason.... they are dogs after all.... 

I have seen more people with labradors..... excuse that big old dopey behavior as harmless when its often rude..... and it gets them into trouble.

It would seem to me that for the safety of your own dog you might try being a big more considerate..... 

I mean really the other part of that is that people who can't control their dogs and let their dogs act rudely towards other dogs and people eventually ruin it for all of us....when the "no dogs allowed" signs start showing up. 

I mean shoot elana has a cattle prod and I have pepper spray and a stick..... and a foot. 
S


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

the mama said:


> Elana... I'm just curious... have you ever had a dog-owner get mad at you for using the cattleprod?
> 
> And, where do you get one?
> 
> ...


I got mine a long time back from Agway. You can get them from places like Tractor Supply.. saw a 30 incher for $39 just the other day. You can spend more.... 

I have had an owner get upset. Too Bad. Usually it does not get that far. 

I have never heard of a cattle prod being thought of as a weapon, but anything really can be. After all, an apple can be a weapon if you use it to bean someone... 

Cattle prods come in vrious lengths. Mine is something like 30 inches with the handle. The handle carries the charger and the batteries and there are various extensions you can get for it to increase or decrease the length. You can also get a little one that is like a small, square, hand held flashlight for close in work with cattle. I have used all this stuff handling half wild cattle running thenm thru a chute to vaccinate or whatever. 

I have never used it on a person. I have never had cause to (not been attacked). I have accidently zapped myself. This got 100% of my attention and I swear that the cow was laughing.... It is not disabling that I have ever seen. It is a REAL attention getter! 

The thing gives out a heckuva jolt. It is like getting nailed by the electric fence you put up to keep horses or cattle in. 

Dogs, when they get nailed, really let out some NOISE and they typically take off for the hills. Typically the next time that dog sees you he leaves the area and will stop at nothing to leave. 

I don't like using it. I use it rarely. However, use it I will and so I carry it. It is like carrying a stick. Not heavy.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

since i was on last, there have been many questions and challenges sent to me, and it is difficult to answer each one.

however:

i called the poodles vicious because they are.
other local dog owners have had their own run-ins with these two.

as well, i met the poodle owners under a different circumstance, away from oinest, and i saw the dogs were good with children and people.
i started a conversation, and the owners themselves said the dogs are vicious to other dogs.

a point of the post, is that although i would have considered myself at fault if anything serious had happened, i do consider these folks to carry blame as well...
even though they were in their rights by law...
since it was a place customary for dogs to be off-leash, then they should take their vicious dogs to a safer place.

as well, i did not discuss at first my subsequent efforts to train oinest, because bad encounters are still possible.
he is still off-leash, and not 100% obedient.
however, his good manners and the types of places we go have allowed us to do our thing, without major (or too many minor) incidents.

i believe it praiseworthy in some regards to rescue an aggressive dog, and attempt to rehabilitate the pooch...and in other ways i question it.
either way, i believe there is a certain level of blame for anything that eventually happens, even if you were within your legal rights.

also, on the issue of "custom" rather than law regarding off-leash:
there was an interesting case this year in new york city.

for over 30 years, it had become customary at many parks for dogs to be off-leash before 9 AM and after 9 PM.
the law on the books prohibited it, but the official unwritten policy of the parks department and police was to let it be.

last year it was challenged by people who didn't like it, and they sued the city for not enforcing the law.

many dog people (the ones who go off-leash) were very scared.

in the end, the city changed the law in favor of off-leash, at these off-times, in designated parks.

why:
because they credited this policy for bringing back the parks to the people at night.
30 years ago, you couldn't go in central park at night.
but when they allowed dog people to go off-leash, they did, and other people followed.
now central park is great even at night (if you're not stupid).

as well, people originally complained that dog-bites would go up.
guess what...they went down dramatically.
why?
because dogs were more socialized now...less territorial and suspicious now, because of positive experiences with people and other dogs.
the mayor and the cops in all jurisdictions may have reasons for being reasonable, even if the official law is against it.


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

Elana, you have inspired me to definitely look into a cattle prod! I googled them yesterday after reading your first post in this thread, but part of me wondered if you were joking,lol (they looked so big!). 
I,too, will most certainly use it if need be. I simply detest the helpless feeling I get when an off leash dog runs up to us. I have several careless neighbors who have no control over their own dogs and it has swayed me from walking in my OWN neighborhood where I have owned a house for seven years! It sort of pisses me off to have to load up and go to the park to walk my dogs, and even there you run into the typical jerk. But overall, the safety of myself, my child, and my dogs is number one.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

what you do not seem to be getting is that 

there dogs are within their control.... on leash..... 

your dog is not under control (not 100% by your own admission) 

if you can't call your dog back then your dog is not under your control..... 

those vicious dogs are not a problem to anyone if the other dogs don't run up to them and that is the key..... your dog approaches them.... 

I know about this 9am rule, I have a puppy person who walks their dog every morning in the park during these offleash times.... I love this puppy and their owners but if that dog (who is a 100% under control) harrasses a dog that is on leash then it is her problem... not the dog on leash, not the people who have control of the dog, regardless of whether the dogs are vicious or fearful or whatever..... 

those dogs are not a problem at all if you have YOUR dog under control.... 

I have hunting dogs that love birds more than anything in the world and I CAN call them back on a dime. 

I think you would find if you look at the laws that the off leash times in those parks are a courtesy and not written into the laws. I would guess (and I can certainly find this out easily enough) that the leash laws are still in effect just not enforced during this before 9am time period as a courtesy.... 

Most leash laws don't actually say the dog must be on leash most say that the dog must be in the control of the owner at all times. If your dog is not 100% then he is not in your control..... if their dogs are on leash they are in their control.... 

you might be upset because you don't like their dogs.... but if there is a problem..... and their dogs are on leash then it is not to hard to figure out who is at fault no matter what you think .
s


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well then petition for it to be legal to allow your dog off leash there. Or perhaps find an appropriate, LEGAL place for you and your group to go let your dogs run around. Even then a dog shouldn't be offleash unless it has a reliable recall.

And I still don't see how someone with a difficult dog who is obeying the law and has their dog under control (until yours comes up uninvited) is doing anything wrong. And I still don't see how you brush it off as worth the risk, but okay...

If the poodles are leash reactive/dog aggressive whatever it would be silly to take them to a dog park. It was probably not a good idea to take them to an area where people let dogs run loose without having a reliable recall. Even then they're still not the ones at fault because their dogs were obeying the proper leash laws.

I don't know how many times we have to say it, but just because your dog is 'nice' and has 'good manners' does not mean that it is welcome to approach people. If there are leash laws, you should follow them especially if your dog is not '100% obedient'.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Haven't read the entire thread - just wanted to comment on the original post that it is _completely _irresponsible for any dog owner to let their off leash dog run up to leashed dogs. Period.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

LAuRELIN: I don't know how many times we have to say it, but just because your dog is 'nice' and has 'good manners' does not mean that it is welcome to approach people.

RESPONSE: the reason you have to repeat it so often is because i have repeatedly stated that oinest DOES NOT approach close to people with their dogs, unless he feels invited.
if his judgement was poor, i would then change the rules.

the incident with the poodles was an aberration, because the dogs freaked even when he approached at a safe distance.

fortunately, this type of aggressive dog is rare on the beaches and parks that we go to, so it has not been an issue again.

my point, is that, under proper conditions, i consider it fine to take him off-leash, even if minor incidents occassionally occur.
his joy at being off-leash should not be curtailed by me, if he is fit for it.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

dog-man said:


> LAuRELIN: I don't know how many times we have to say it, but just because your dog is 'nice' and has 'good manners' does not mean that it is welcome to approach people.
> 
> RESPONSE: the reason you have to repeat it so often is because i have repeatedly stated that oinest DOES NOT approach close to people with their dogs, unless he feels invited.
> if his judgement was poor, i would then change the rules.
> ...


I am so glad you don't live anywhere near us..... irresponsible dog owners drive me insane...... 
I think I am gonna go buy a cattle prod as well..... 
the fact that the poodles freaked means it WASN'T a safe distance.... 

we don't want his joy curtailed...... the hell with what that means for everyone else around us..... 

I wonder what time agway opens..... 
s


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I don't know how many times we have to say it, but just because your dog is 'nice' and has 'good manners' does not mean that it is welcome to approach people. If there are leash laws, you should follow them especially if your dog is not '100% obedient'.


Agreed 100%. Around here, on the boards, I enjoy looking at dog pics and discussing dogs. But in real life I have absolutely no interest in any dog that I pass by, be it at the park, petsmart, the street. None. When I see a dog off leash, especially in an area that requires leashes by law (which is practically...everywhere?) I hold a certain resentment towards that owner for their blatant disregard of everybody else. At the park I frequent there is a man who speaks little to no English with a teeny tiny terrier. He brings that dog there almost daily and it hops out of the car, OFF leash, carrying it's frisbee. It seems to think it owns the place and runs up to everybody. It's hard for me to resist football punting it across the park when it runs up to Rosco, uninvited,Rosco greets it kindly but when he crouches down to go nose to nose it starts yapping and yapping aggressively which makes Rosco uncomfortable. Here I am trying to get my pup to accept passing by dogs (which he does very well until they bark at him first) and this little bastard just pushes me back a step or two each time. The owner simply calls it back to him..but still, a bit of a reverse example here.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

SHALVA, quoting and responding to me:
" i don't want his joy curtailed"...... the hell with what that means for everyone else around us..... 

RESPONSE:
i love when people quote, but cut it off in the middle.

i said:
I don't want his joy curtailed, IF HE IS FIT FOR IT.

somehow, that takes on a different flavor.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

dog-man said:


> SHALVA, quoting and responding to me:
> " i don't want his joy curtailed"...... the hell with what that means for everyone else around us.....
> 
> RESPONSE:
> ...



no not really..... because he clearly isn't fit for it if he is annoying other dogs and people. 

over and out.... I feel like I am to a wall..... oh but gee I am only saying the same thing as everyone else..... 

s


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Dog-man:

Here is what you don't get:

1.) Most folks do not like loose dogs, regardless of how friendly they are and regardless of whether or not their dogs are friendly.

2.) Having a dog off leash that is not 100% obedient in an uncontrolled environment is unacceptable and rude to other people you have to share space with.

3.) Your insistance on continuing this rude behavior is concentric egoism at best and breaks the laws and rules at worst. 

4.) Most people who want to let their dogs play with other dogs want to do so where there is some control and only after meeting the owner and talking about it. 

5.) Shalva said it best.. folks like you are why folks like me see those "no dogs allowed" signs going up.

Give it up man. You are outnumbered on this one. Sometimes you need to accept that you are wrong! 

OK.. Now I think the rest of us are entitled to performing one of those Alpha Rolls we all read about....


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Yea...I do belive this is a sick little game we got ourselves entwined in...someone who wants us to just back off of the real way of the world for his sake.

THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND YOU AND YOUR DOG.

Get over yourself before something tragic happens to your dog. You friken whiner.

And I say that with love for gosh sakes.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Dogman, I think it is wonderful that you love your dog so much. You seem to be giving him a very happy and fullfilled live. But I just don't get, why you believe that your dogs happiness is more important than the feelings of the general public. Do you even care how your actions affect others. It doesn't bother you that your dog could be causing not only other dogs, but people's distress as well? 

Maybe right now there are only small incidents. But it only takes one time to change the live og you and your dog forever. 

And what about the people who don't know about the general tendency for lawbreakers at the beach on off season. I guess they will find out when your dog comes barreling towards them, while he is giving you the doggy equivalent of the finger.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Elana55 said:


> 5.) Shalva said it best.. folks like you are why folks like me see those "no dogs allowed" signs going up.


and that's what annoys me most.

So of course if Oinest judges the situation to be okay, then he should be allowed to approach strangers or strange dogs, right? 

You are the owner of your dog, therefore you make the calls regarding your dog. Oinest should not be judging anything- he is a dog. Dogs do not understand leash laws. You do. It is up to you to make sure he follows the rules.

Blatant disregard for everyone else really annoys me. 

Oh well if my rule-breaking behavior causes some people (who are obeying the rules) grief. I'm having fun...


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

ELANA55: 

Dog-man:

Here is what you don't get:

1.) Most folks do not like loose dogs, regardless of how friendly they are and regardless of whether or not their dogs are friendly.
WELL, I DON'T GO PLACES WHERE IT IS COMMON FOR THERE TO BE A PROBLEM.
OINEST IS NOT INTERESTED IN PEOPLE WITHOUT A DOG...HE LISTENS TO ME FOR THAT.
AND THE PEOPLE WITH DOGS AT THE PLACES I GO LOOK FORWARD TO OINEST, WITH ALMOST NO EXCEPTION IN 3 YEARS.

3.) Your insistance on continuing this rude behavior is concentric egoism at best and breaks the laws and rules at worst. 
IF YOU READ MY POSTS, IT IS NOT FOUND TO BE RUDE BY OTHERS WHO MEET US...JUST IN SOME PEOPLE'S ABSTRACT IMAGINATIONs HERE (and their experiences with others).
AND IF YOU THINK I SHOULD HAVE STOPPED GOING OFF-LEASH BECAUSE OF THAT ONE INCIDENT WITH THE POODLES, THEN I'M NOT INTERESTED IN SUCH AN EXTREME OPINION.

4.) Most people who want to let their dogs play with other dogs want to do so where there is some control and only after meeting the owner and talking about it. 
WELL, THE BEACH (OFF-SEASON) IS THE PLACE WE DOG-OWNERS MEET IN THIS NEIGHBORHOOD....ALMOST EVERY DOG TAKEN TO THE BEACH HERE IS UP FOR IT.
if the owner of a vicious dog decides to assert his legal rights, my opinion is that we don't all have to disappear back to our backyards.
dog parks are not a great solution for all...too many people with aggressive dogs try to socialize them there, with lots of problems.
i care about those dogs, and let oinest play with them...but there is a limit if i want him safe.

5.) Shalva said it best.. folks like you are why folks like me see those "no dogs allowed" signs going up.
PEOPLE YOU COMPARE TO ME, BUT ARE NOT AT ALL LIKE ME.

Give it up man. You are outnumbered on this one. Sometimes you need to accept that you are wrong! 
I SAW PLENTY OF POSTS WITH PEOPLE WHO DO SIMILAR, AND SAID SO.
AS WELL AS ALL THE FOLKS WHO DO LIKE ME AS WELL IN THIS AREA.

sorry about the upper case...not a sign of aggression...just making a distinction between the speakers.


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

You keep calling these dogs 'vicious' which is just wrong. There is a certain unspoken rule in the dog world- I believe it goes something like "mind your own and stay away from mine"


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

I honestly don't get why this is so difficult for you to grasp, you are breaking the law, taking others rights away, risking injury to your dog and others and just seem oblivious. I'm getting the feeling that nothing anyone says will convice you that you're wrong....and you are, plain and simple.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

LAURELIN: Oinest should not be judging anything- he is a dog. 

MAYBE YOUR DOGS ARE NOT UP TO USING THEIR JUDGEMENT...MINE IS, AND PROVES IT EVERY DAY.
-------------------------------------

LAURELIN:
Blatant disregard for everyone else really annoys me. 

BLATANT DISREGARD FOR ALL MY CLARIFICATIONS THAT CATEGORICALLY STATE WE ARE NOT BOTHERING PEOPLE OR DOGS IS WHAT REALLY ANNOYS ME.
i brought up a case which was an exception to make a point.


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

dog-man, may I ask...is Oinest your first dog? You seem to be humanizing him a lot, and of the opinion that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. But really, in the stories you've told, he's coming off as merely average. I mean no offense! I'm just curious.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

ROSCOE'S MOM: dog-man, may I ask...is Oinest your first dog? You seem to be humanizing him a lot, and of the opinion that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. But really, in the stories you've told, he's coming off as merely average. 

RESPONSE:
yep, he is my first pooch.
and yes, he is better than sliced bread.
and yes, i have difficulty seeing major distinctions between him and most people...except that he is a helluva lot sweeter.

i have four kids and a grandson that i am crazy about (even a wife who tolerates me), and good friends, so i don't think it's a sign of some major psychological difficulty (minor perhaps).

i'm not sure why he comes off as average, although i have no problem if you think so.
what makes me know i am not exaggerating him, are the countless friends, neighbors and fellow dog-owners who also say they never met a pooch like him.
he's half golden retreiver, which already gave him a great start.

i treat him like a dog, but respect his needs and dignity like i would a person.
which means he gets lots of exercise, plays with his buddies, and has a feeling of equality in our home.
he knows i am the leader, and so is very secure.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Roscosmom said:


> dog-man, may I ask...is Oinest your first dog? You seem to be humanizing him a lot, and of the opinion that he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. But really, in the stories you've told, he's coming off as merely average. I mean no offense! I'm just curious.


I know what you are trying to say- Bo is my first puppy, and I consider him superpuppy because in 2 1/2 weeks he has learned his name, "Sit" and "Come". I am super proud of what he has learned.


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

> so i don't think it's a sign of some major psychological difficulty *(minor perhaps)*.


LOL! No, I agree. It was just intuition. I can just tell that you love him a lot, and it's hard for you to understand how anybody else, even a total stranger, could not.

I really meant no offense with the average comment. I just require a _lot_ out of my dogs and I expect (demand?) that they walk a fine line. I* love* them just the same, but I have a LOT of rules and what is unacceptable is simply unacceptable.

Please keep in mind that people such as myself do love dogs. I love them! But I love my own..not yours so much. Friendly people you meet and greet (who have dogs) are merely tolerating or admiring Oinest. When push comes to shove- they've got _their _dogs back first and foremost. Surely you'd feel the same.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You are a first time dog owner one thing to remember is that dogs are not humans. You keep anthromorphising Oinest. They do not know our laws or what human rules there are. they don't have the same grasp of the world- especially human manners- that we have. Dogs cannot evaluate the situation the way we can. We're their owners and protectors. It's all up to us. 

My dogs are amazing. They're smart, they're very sweet dogs. None are even the remote bit aggressive- in fact one is a therapy dog. She visits elderly folks in nursing homes. Everyone who meets them comments on how nice they are and how quickly they warm up to people. that does NOT mean that everyone wants to meet them or should get the 'joy' of meeting them. Some people don't like dogs. Not everyone in the park nor every dog owner came there to meet me and my wonderful pooches. It's up to me as an owner to keep my dogs safe and to keep other people safe from my dogs (no this does NOt mean my dogs are 'vicious') Allowing them to meet and greet whomever they deem worthy (which knowing them would be everyone) is not safe and it is just plain rude to other people also trying to enjoy the area. 

I can kind of understand. I think my dogs are the most wonderful things ever, but I have to realize that not everyone else does.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

This thread is POINTLESS. 

I don't think he should leave the judgement up to the dog...that's rediculous.

However, he's not going to change his point of view...and not going to see that he is wrong in any way. We ARE talking to a brick wall. 

Perhaps oinest (what is this name all about, anyway?) is the most wonderful dog in the world and everyone (dog haters alike) love him to death when he decides that they've given him the signal to approach. Perhaps dog-man has the ability to choose the perfect time and place to let oinest off-leash and will live happily ever after and never have a major problem. 

While dog-man's original post was extremely self-centered and leaning towards narcissistic...he has defended himself with dignity and perhaps some sort of intelligence. Even if I don't agree with him.  I also think he started the thread in the wrong manner, without the right information, extremely opinionated. Perhaps it's a matter of not communicating effectively what he was trying to convey. 

Give it up people. Would someone PLEEEEZ close this thread. It's stressing me out!


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Why Oinest is special...let me count the ways:

1) my cat who hated dogs, and freaked when we got him as a pup, loves him now, and they often sleep together.

2) children on the block and around the corner love to visit him.
the 10 year olds love when he pulls them on a rope while they are on skates, and the tiny children like to pet him while he sits quietly.

3) he loves all people and all dogs.
he is one of the few dogs at the dog park who wants to get to know the humans too.

he is gentle with the little dogs...rolls over and lets them death-shake his neck.
big dogs like to wrestle him, because he is full of spunk and game.

4) he is a source of joy to my 87 year old father-in-law, who lives with us.

5) he makes my wife laugh when no one else can.

6) the friends of my children love him.

7) he is great with my 1-year old grandson.

8) there are an enormous number of words that he recognizes.

9) he is an alert watchdog, but follows my reaction to guests, and then is a wonderful host.

10) he gives fantastic foot-washes.

11) i am often honked at red lights by other drivers who are hysterical at the way he sits like a person in the car...they often thought he was an old lady.

there are more, but i'll spare you


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

I have to disagree, MacNroe. I think this is a learning process for dog-man and he's getting a lot of opinions from various types of dog owners. Most people won't tell you to your face how very displeased they are with your dogs manners. They will just laugh it off and say "MY what a friendly guy *nervous laughter*" and then roll their eyes and cuss you under their breath after you've moved along.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

dog-man, we all love our dogs and think they are wonderful. My dog brings me so much joy and love it's hard to imagine. And, yes..this is my first dog (dogs in my case) too. They love people and other dogs alike, are very friendly, submissive at the park, etc...etc. 

He is not a person. I sometimes think my dog Mac is something special...it's like he just "knows" things. But that doesn't give me the right to leave him off-leash and approach a stranger in any case whatsoever, even if the person says it is okay. you are teaching him that approaching people is okay behavior, in which it is not. You just don't get it. 

We all love our dogs and want them to be happy and free and run around. But if everyone thought that they were above the law (like you do) then there would be problems. You are not the center of the earth (again, narcissistic thinking). I'm not trying to be mean, you seem like a nice enough guy...just very self centered.


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

dog-man said:


> Why Oinest is special...let me count the ways:
> 
> 1) my cat who hated dogs, and freaked when we got him as a pup, loves him now, and they often sleep together.
> 
> ...


You are SO in love! And I think that's wonderful, I'm a bit smitten with my new puppy as well. He's my first male and our bond is becoming amazing and I so look forward to the future with him.

But, as much as I love him, I understand that some people are scared of dogs, some dogs just simply do not like other dogs, some people with dogs do not want other dogs near them for reasons of their OWN (and no matter what their reasons it is really their business and no one elses!). In a nutshell- you must respect other dog owners and other people, and so must Oinest if he wants to reside in the 'people world' outside of his home.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Roscosmom said:


> I have to disagree, MacNroe. I think this is a learning process for dog-man and he's getting a lot of opinions from various types of dog owners. Most people won't tell you to your face how very displeased they are with your dogs manners. They will just laugh it off and say "MY what a friendly guy *nervous laughter*" and then roll their eyes and cuss you under their breath after you've moved along.


I know, I know. your right. I bet there's been many times people have just cussed under their breath at him. That's probably what I'd do. I would say, I love your dog, he's so sweet. I'm glad he got to meet Mac'n'Roe But I'd really be saying he should have his dog on a leash.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

dog-man said:


> BLATANT DISREGARD FOR ALL MY CLARIFICATIONS THAT CATEGORICALLY STATE WE ARE NOT BOTHERING PEOPLE OR DOGS IS WHAT REALLY ANNOYS ME.


But you do annoy people. How do you know that you don't? Because they don't say it your face? I smiled at the last girl whose dog barrelled up to Max and then cussed her as I was walking away shaking. You only assume you aren't annoying people because _you think _you don't annoy _most_ people. But you know what they say about assuming? It makes an ass of u and me.

Thanks for beating me to is Roscoesmom


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> I know, I know. your right. I bet there's been many times people have just cussed under their breath at him. That's probably what I'd do. I would say, I love your dog, he's so sweet. I'm glad he got to meet Mac'n'Roe But I'd really be saying he should have his dog on a leash.


Exactly! I do that with the "little bastard" from the park that I mentioned earlier in this thread. I laugh it off and say "aww.he's a cutie!" but really I'm fantasizing of him flying through the air whilst I swear at his owner for thinking he and his dog are above the law.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

MAX: But you do annoy people. How do you know that you don't? Because they don't say it your face? 

RESPONSE:
because he doesn't go up to people without a dog...i say "STAY", "GOOD BOY", and he doesn't even come close.
his wagging tail and goofy look are not intimidating to be a problem from a distance.
occassionally, there are exceptions, of people who are scared of dogs even from a distance...it is rare, and minor.
it has been a process of learning, trial and error, since he was a pup.

as for the people with dogs, i have tried to explain that this is where people with good dogs go to meet other dogs...i am not some sort of aberration.
however, he is cautious when approaching a new dog...and then everyone has a good time.

the case of the poodle was an exception, because dog owners with aggressive pooches don't show up.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

dog-man said:


> Why Oinest is special...let me count the ways:
> 
> 1) my cat who hated dogs, and freaked when we got him as a pup, loves him now, and they often sleep together.
> 
> ...


Just an insight into why I am bothered by how you talk about the "aggressive dogs". You need to learn more about dogs. Here's some insight into reality.

This dog:





































Would be classified by you as aggressive if your dog met him while he was leashed in a uncontrolled environment. Do you understand why those of us with reactive dogs are upset by you? My dog is wonderful. Great with kids, dogs, cats. Like yours, Ollie turned my anti-social 16 year old cat into a lover. He raised gently my kitten to be wonderful with dogs.

Aggressive is a loaded term in the dog world. And you're not like to make any friends here using it.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

I'm sure he's remarkable. IMO, my puppy is remarkable. I love the way he and my 2 year old play. However, I am supervising, I know his limitations, and I know he is UTD healthwise. I pity any dog that runs off leash up to my kids.

You may find this completely off topic, but in my head it's not.

Have you ever seen a special on those big cat rescues that take in tigers, lions, ligers, etc from people who gave them up as pets? It amazes me how, as cubs, they play with adults, kids, housecats, dogs, etc. They are so sweet, are well trained, smart, and know all sorts of words. However, I doubt any member of the general public wants one of them wandering up to them off leash, no matter how much the trainer is saying what a good boy he is.

You may see that way off base and they are much more dangerous, but to someone with a fear of dogs (me) it is not so much. A few years ago, I would probably rather a lion cub wander up to me than a strange dog. I literally would break out in a sweat, my throat would close up, and my bp was through the roof. And, yeah your beach may be full of people illegally walking dogs off-lead, so people scared of dogs should just "stay away" (bs, but anyway) but what of a new person in the neighborhood, or someone from out of state??


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## the mama (Dec 28, 2007)

dog-man said:


> and yes, i have difficulty seeing major distinctions between him and most people...except that he is a helluva lot sweeter.
> 
> i treat him like a dog, but respect his needs and dignity like i would a person.
> which means he gets lots of exercise, plays with his buddies, and has a feeling of equality in our home. he knows i am the leader, and so is very secure.


You have trouble seeing distinctions between him and most people?? I find that mildly frightening.

He has a feeling of equality in your home? Then he doesn't see you as leader. He should be at the bottom of the heirarchy to truly be under control. Anyone training an aggressive/dominant dog knows that. 



dog-man said:


> Why Oinest is special...let me count the ways:
> 
> 1) my cat who hated dogs, and freaked when we got him as a pup, loves him now, and they often sleep together.
> 
> ...


I don't doubt that Oinest IS special... to you and those in your world. I bet those "vicious" poodles are very special to their owners. I could give you an endless list of ways in which my leash-aggressive (and, therefore, un-walk-worthy) Lucy is special to me, and my family and friends. EVERYONE can give lists upon lists upon lists of ways in which their dogs are special. 

None of which excuse bad manners/lack of control over their dogs. Period.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Okay, dog-man keeps saying that his dog doesn't approach strange people without a dog. So, you have control over him when there is just a person there. 

But, if there is a person with a dog, he approaches and you let him decide if it's okay to approach or not? Would he listen if you said to stay or no or whatever it is you say? 

However, this is just in the customary off-leash beach area that you do this type of excercise with him? Do you do this in other public areas?


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

THE MAMA:
You have trouble seeing distinctions between him and most people?? I find that mildly frightening.

RESPONSE: I TREAT PEOPLE WITH DIGNITY AND CARING, SO I DON'T THINK IT A PROBLEM.

THE MAMA:
He has a feeling of equality in your home? Then he doesn't see you as leader. He should be at the bottom of the heirarchy to truly be under control. Anyone training an aggressive/dominant dog knows that. 

RESPONSE:
HE IS NOT AN AGGRESIVE/DOMINANT DOG.
GOLDEN RETREIVERS ARE NOT DOMINANT.
HE DOES SEE ME AS THE LEADER, AND I TREAT HIM AS AN EQUAL AND RESPECTED MEMBER OF THE HOME.
THERE DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A CONTRADICTION.
HOWEVER, I RECOGNIZE HE IS A DOG, AND THEREFORE HE HAS MANY DIFFERENT NEEDS.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

ANY DOG can be dominant including Golden Retrievers.... 
actually we are seeing quite a few aggressive golden retrievers and bad temperaments .... 

that you made that statement is an indication of how little you know about dogs.... 

Golden Retrievers are very dominant towards other dogs, they are also cheerleaders so when disagreements happen they will often jump into the fray like teenagers in the school cafeteria yelling "fight fight fight" 

any dog can be dominant.... it doesn't matter what breed ...... 

and that you even made that comments shows how little you know about dogs or Golden Retrievers specifically...... 

I think its really interesting this ..... 
oh yeah this is my first dog..... but I know everything about everything..... the problem is that you came to this board expecting us to support your irresponsibility toward these vicious dogs (and the more you talk the more I think that they probably aren't vicious at all but you and your dog are rude and ignorant regarding dog behavior) and you didn't get the support you wanted...... 



s


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

MAC:
Do you do this in other public areas?

RESPONSE:
when the beach season starts, i take him to a NYC park where it is now legal for him to be off-leash before 9 am.
there are a few joggers who are used to him.

i often take him to a local park at night where it is not legal, but the cops are tolerant.
people are not in the park then (only other occassional dog couples).
however, people do pass through the park.

i had one minor incident recently.
oinest loves teenagers.
my 17 year old daughter often takes him to hang out with her group.
there were 4 teenagers, 2 boys and 2 girls, who were passing through the park, being loud.
oinest wanted to meet them, and ignored me.
( i WILL take steps to prevent this in the future.)
one girl was scared...she was laughing, but i'm sure she didn't like it.
they all laughed it off, and it was over.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Gotta agree with Shalva.

Please pick up a book on dog behavior. You will understand the behavior of your dog, and the behavior of other dogs better.


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## the mama (Dec 28, 2007)

I am so done with this thread. 

Dog man, you do seem to love your dog, for that I give you props. 

You also seem to be completely locked into your own reality with regard to dog ownership and responsibilities. For that, I choose not to tolerate any more of your excuses and twisted reasoning.

Good luck, and peace, to you in your dog-ownership, and life in general. I'm sure Oinest will enjoy a very pleasant life in your care.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

dog-man said:


> THE MAMA:
> You have trouble seeing distinctions between him and most people?? I find that mildly frightening.
> 
> RESPONSE: I TREAT PEOPLE WITH DIGNITY AND CARING, SO I DON'T THINK IT A PROBLEM.
> ...


As much as we would like to see them as equals, dogs are not. Neither are cats or children IMO, and dogs and children seem to thrive and crave, structure, boundaries, and discipline.

Bo is a labx, labs are generally not aggressive. However, he is being taught that people feet come before puppy paws, we go out first, he must wait on his food, and that he must be invited up on the furniture. I don't believe he would become aggressive, but I want him to have rules and boundaries.

My children are not aggressive, yet they know to listen to us, say please and thank you, etc. My kids aren't allowed to go up to strangers. 

It all boils down to basic manners. Dogs and children aren't born with them, they must be taught.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

My dog does all the same stuff Oinest does (cats, kids, the WORKS) AND herds sheep and opens and closes doors at my request and has a 100% Really Reliable Recall.

Until she can get me the TV remote, the phone, and the car keys, she is still average. 

Until I have her trained to go and get me a beer out of the refrigerator (we are real close to this one right now), she is not truly special. 

Fact is, she is an average dog, just like Oinest is. Better actually just based on the Recall. She gets her own horn honks and comments on her beauty which she takes in stride like any princess would. 

You have nothing so special there to anyone in the world except the dog's owner, YOU. Trust me. 

And, as special as he is to you, if he came bouncing up to Atka he would still get the Cattle prod if you did not call him. Sorry pal, just not special enough to me.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i had one minor incident recently.
> oinest loves teenagers.
> my 17 year old daughter often takes him to hang out with her group.
> there were 4 teenagers, 2 boys and 2 girls, who were passing through the park, being loud.
> ...


I thought you said he never approaches people without dogs....Hmmm....


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

SHALVA:
Golden Retrievers are very dominant towards other dogs
that you even made that comments shows how little you know about dogs or Golden Retrievers specifically...... 


RESPONSE:
i have two books in front of me, that help people choose the right type of dog for them.
golden retreivers have the best score out of any other dog in the book in terms of not being dominant.
that is also my experience.

goldens have a problem with being over-playful...that is different than dominance.

btw, the books are THE RIGHT DOG FOR YOU, by Daniel Tortora, and ENCYCLOPEDIA OF DOG BREEDS, by Caroline Coile, Phd.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

(i) Failure to Control Animals

(1) Except as specified in §1-05(s)(3) or in paragraph two of this subdivision, no person owning, possessing or controlling any animal shall cause or *allow such animal to be unleashed or unrestrained in any park unless permitted by the Commissioner in accordance with these rules. No person owning, possessing or controlling any animal shall cause or allow such animal to be out of control in any park under any circumstances. Animals that are unleashed or unrestrained, except as permitted by these rules, or out of control may be seized and impounded.*Properly licensed dogs, wearing a license tag and vaccinated against rabies pursuant to the laws of the State of New York and City of New York and restrained by a leash or other restraint not exceeding six feet in length, may be brought into a park, except in no event shall dogs or other animals be allowed to enter any playground, zoo, swimming pool and swimming pool facility, bathing area and adjacent bathing beach (unless otherwise permitted by the Commissioner and not during the designated bathing season), bridle path (unless leashed dogs are permitted therein by the Commissioner), fountain, ballfield, basketball court, handball court, tennis court, or other area prohibited by the Commissioner. Nothing in this subdivision (i) shall be construed to prohibit persons with disabilities from bringing seeing eye dogs, or other service dogs trained to assist such persons into these areas. Nothing herein shall prohibit horses from entering or being within a park as provided in § 1-05(q).

(2) Unless specifically prohibited herein or by the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene (“DOHMH"), properly licensed dogs wearing a license tag and vaccinated against rabies pursuant to the laws of the State of New York and City of New York *may be unleashed within a designated park or designated portions of a park between the hours of 9:00 p.m. and 9:00 a.m. under the following conditions: (i) such dogs shall, except for being unleashed, be kept under the control of their owner and shall not at any time harass or injure any park patron and/or, harass, injure, damage, sever, mutilate, or kill any animal, tree, planting, flower, shrub or other vegetation;* (ii) such dogs shall not at any time enter any playground, zoo, swimming pool and swimming pool facility, bathing area and adjacent bathing beach (unless otherwise permitted by the Commissioner and not during the designated bathing season), bridle path (unless leashed dogs are permitted therein by the Commissioner), fountain, ballfield, basketball court, handball court, tennis court, or other area prohibited by the Commissioner; (iii) such dogs shall be immediately leashed by their owners upon any direction or command of any Police Officer, Urban Park Ranger, Parks Enforcement Patrol Officer or other Department employee or employee of the DOHMH, the refusal of which direction or command shall constitute a violation of § 1-03(c); (iv) owners of such dogs shall provide proof of current vaccination against rabies and proof of current licensing upon the request of any Police Officer, Urban Park Ranger, Parks Enforcement Patrol Officer or other Department employee or employee of the DOHMH, the refusal of which shall constitute a violation of § 1-03(c), § 1-05(s)(3) and of this subdivision.

(j) Control and Removal of Animal Waste

(1) No person shall allow any dog in his custody or control to discharge any fecal matter in any park unless he promptly removes and disposes of same. This provision shall not apply to a guide dog accompanying a person with a disability.

the operative word bolded above is harrass dogs will not harrass any other park patron..... 
s



dog-man said:


> SHALVA:
> Golden Retrievers are very dominant towards other dogs
> that you even made that comments shows how little you know about dogs or Golden Retrievers specifically......
> 
> ...


oh my gosh you have two books..... who cares..... I raise show, compete with and breed golden retrievers.... and you clearly know very little about your breed..... even with your two books..... and its your experience.... you have had one dog.... 



s


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

MAX: I thought you said he never approaches people without dogs....Hmmm....


RESPONSE;
i have mentioned quite a few times that there are occassional exceptions, which are few and far between, and minor.
as well, that it has been a learning process, trial and error, for oinest and me, in which i make adjustments any time even something minor happens.

not really sure where the hmmm comes in...


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Hehe I'm pretty amused that dog-man is telling Shalva what goldens are like. This will be pretty amusing.... LOL.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

SHALVA: oh my gosh you have two books..... who cares..... I raise show, compete with and breed golden retrievers.... and you clearly know very little about your breed..... even with your two books..... and its your experience.... you have had one dog.... 

RESPONSE:
i think that if two experts in the field rate goldens as the least dominant dog, i think i can make that statement without being called ignorant.

as well, goldens are extremely popular in my area, and oinest loves them more than other dogs, so we have become friends with quite a few.

i am interested in hearing about your experiences with goldens, if you can share it without being condescending.

i do an enormous amount of reading about dog and breed behavior...don't be so quick to assume my level of knowledge.


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## Dog5 (Jan 13, 2008)

Dog-man: Oinest sounds wonderful, but honestly, that describes a lot of dogs. My Great Pyrenees, God rest his soul, was every single one of those things, but I would never let him run off leash, for his own sake and for the sake of others. The world is an unpredictable place. I expect that when Dominic reaches full maturity, he will be all of those things, too, but again...


*RBark: I LOVE that first photo of your dogs. Gorgeous!!! *


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i have mentioned quite a few times that there are occassional exceptions, which are few and far between, and minor.
> as well, that it has been a learning process, trial and error, for oinest and me, in which i make adjustments any time even something minor happens.
> 
> not really sure where the hmmm comes in...


I said "Hmmm" to indicate that I'm thinking....it just doesn't add up at all, you try to say you are being responsible and have said that he "never" or "rarely" approaches people without dogs, and yet just a few days ago he did just that. That's not even taking into consideration your statements about how is around people with dogs.

The fact that it happens at all completely undermines your position. You are being hypocritical, illogical, and above all selfish to subject other people to your lack of responsibility. And now I'm done because clearly your intention was only to preach your sense of entitlement to the world. Which is a shame, cause otherwise Oinest does sound quite nice. You are actually reflecting rather poorly on him.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

back to the dominance issue.

if one gets a dog with a great low dominance score...like a golden.

and then chooses a puppy from the litter who is neither alpha or omega, but in between...

and one then socializes the pup extensively with people and dogs...giving lots of love...and the right measure of discipline for that dog...

it won't be a big shock if the pooch turns out to be non-dominant to dogs and people.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Shalva
Good luck talking to a wall is not easy. The statement (a little knowledge is a dangerous thing)comes to mind. I like Mama am abandoning this thread, life is to precious to waste any more time with this silliness.


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## Melou1889 (Feb 26, 2008)

i find a lot that people assume the worst right away.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Agree with you there Melou!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Good. You read two books. 

Here are two more:
"Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson
"The Other End of the Leash" buy Patricia McConnell, Phd (in animal behavior)

I am done with this thread too. Gone from the sublime to the ridiculous and I have a desk here that listens and learns better. Hmm.. come to think of it I have a dog that listens better too!!

"I hate it when a man talks rude."


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

i believe this is THE main differerence in philosophy between me and some others here (although i try to allow others to think differently, and some here obviously do not.):

i do put human rights ahead of animal rights.
however, if it is a matter of minor annoyance to a human and a major quality of life issue for an animal, then i have to give it careful thought.

that is why i no longer want an animal to live a life of torture, so i can have a tasty meal.

and that's why i am willing to risk minor episodes of annoyance to people rather than take away my pooches joy (and i think his right as a living being) to sometimes run free.

these laws were made for human benefit...i follow them to a large degree...i won't take him to the beach during the on-season...however, off-season, i rely on the custom of the area...as does a large group of dog owners.

if i was the only one at the beach and other places, i might see the point of being called EGOCENTRICAL, SELFISH, RIGID, CLOSE-MINDED, ETC. 
however, we are people with a point of view...well-thought-out and reasonable....YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE...
BUT MAYBE OPEN UP YOUR OWN MINDS A BIT TOO ON THIS ISSUE.

-----------------------------

ELANA: Here are two more:
"Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson
"The Other End of the Leash" buy Patricia McConnell, Phd (in animal behavior)


RESPONSE: i did read MS. McConnell's book.
what is it that you think i should take from it?

any possibility that you could consider that i am in touch with dog behavior and needs?
even though i may approach things differently.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i believe this is THE main differerence in philosophy between me and some others here (although i try to allow others to think differently, and some here obviously do not.):
> 
> i do put human rights ahead of animal rights.
> however, if it is a matter of minor annoyance to a human and a major quality of life issue for an animal, then i have to give it careful thought.
> ...


For one, why dogs react viciously when your dog approaches them while they are on the leash.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i believe this is THE main differerence in philosophy between me and some others here (although i try to allow others to think differently, and some here obviously do not.):
> 
> *i do put human rights ahead of animal rights.
> however, if it is a matter of minor annoyance to a human and a major quality of life issue for an animal, then i have to give it careful thought.*
> ...


You have TOTALLY missed what many/most on here have said. You ARE having an impact on other peoples DOGS. If you care so much about your own dog, then for WHY is it so hard for you to grasp that other people care just as much about their own LEASHED dogs. 

Leash laws are there for a reason. After Sophie was attacked, I still had to continue to walk her OBVIOUSLY, so I chose parks that were NOT OFF LEASH *FOR A REASON *. I still had idiot who put THEIR OWN DOGS illegal freedom above the safety and rights of other dog, allow their dogs to run amuck. Every single one of them was immediately TOLD...NOT ASKED to leash their dog or suffer the consequences.

For someone who loves his dog, you certainly show no concern for anyone else who's dogs are JUST AS LOVED.
You, my friend have a very SELFISH attitude that might one day come back to bite the very dog you love.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

RBARK:
For one, why dogs react viciously when your dog approaches them while they are on the leash.

RESPONSE:
ah, but normal dogs don't, because oinest does it with intelligence.
the poodles who DID are that way with ALL dogs.

if your questions is "why do normal dogs sometimes react aggressively, while on leash, and a strange dog makes a too quick and uninvited approach?", i think the answer is obvious...
it's not just a matter of doggie behavior...it's rude, unsettling, and possibly perceived as dangerous.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

dog-man said:


> that is why i no longer want an animal to live a life of torture, so i can have a tasty meal..


Entirely OT but my Dairy cows hardly lived a life of torture. Fact is, they lead the life of Riley and I provided them with all of that.. and believe me, if I was a smidgeon late with providing it, they let me know it. My providing the Life of Riley also gave me a the highest producing herd in the county. 

I am guessing you are an animal rights activist, or share those beliefs or something like that..



dog-man said:


> and that's why i am willing to risk minor episodes of annoyance to people rather than take away my pooches joy (and i think his right as a living being) to sometimes run free.


So you won't mind if, when your dog annoys me, he gets a taste of the cattle prod? Lets face it, that is my right as a living being. Okaaaayyy



dog-man said:


> YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE...
> BUT MAYBE OPEN UP YOUR OWN MINDS A BIT TOO ON THIS ISSUE.


Those who have also had issues with loose dogs making their dogs leash aggressive. Experience "closed their minds." I told you the circumstances under which I would allow your dog off leash to approach my dog off leash. You continue to press on ignoring that as if you have a rather large chunk of rock salt between your ears as opposed to an open mind. 

Fact is, the closed mind here is yours. You have simply decided your actions are a minor inconvenice and you are loved by all and so you continue on your merry way. fine. Expect Oinest to meet with my cattle prod if and when we meet. Hope not for oinest's sake.



dog-man said:


> ELANA: Here are two more:
> "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson
> "The Other End of the Leash" buy Patricia McConnell, Phd (in animal behavior)
> 
> ...


I guess if you read that book, you got little from it. Your anthropomorphizing comments point this out. If you allow your dog to "judge" the situation, then you got nothing at all from this book. Sorry you wasted your time. 

I am not wasting any more of mine.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

mydogspot: You have TOTALLY missed what many/most on here have said. You ARE having an impact on other peoples DOGS. 

RESPONSE:
yes, we are having an impact...every week, dogs and their owners have a great time with oinest.

i am not going to take the heat for the negative experiences people have had with other dogs.

---------------------

ELANA: I am not wasting any more of mine.

RESPONSE:
that's ok...there were some intelligent thoughts and challenges i saw among the many posts...yours was not among them.

all i saw was an obsession with a cattle prod.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

dog-man said:


> mydogspot: You have TOTALLY missed what many/most on here have said. You ARE having an impact on other peoples DOGS.
> 
> RESPONSE:
> yes, we are having an impact...every week, dogs and their owners have a great time with oinest.
> ...


It's BECAUSE of people like you and the irresponsibility that you so proudly promote that these negative experiences occur.

Not that you will care too much about this but because my dog was attacked in an on leash area by dogs that were off leash, it is imparitive that I control her interactions so as not to further damage her. I RESPONSIBLY took my now reactive dog to on leash environments in order to desensitize her.
People like you make that almost impossible. I've had her to the point of no reaction and some selfish dog owners dog has approached her while she was LEGALLY on leash...those interactions cause so much damage. 

But who cares right, as long as YOUR dog can run free.

I'm done. Wrong is wrong, selfish is selfish....


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## Mudra (Nov 1, 2007)

At first this thread captured my curiousity and decided to read all the replies. I, too, am convinced that "giving your honest opinion" to the OP is like reasoning to a brick wall. I will not judge your ability to love and care for your dog and I honestly wish that "giving your dog freedom to be off leashed" will not do your dog any harm. I am sure you love your dog as much as MOST of US here in DF love our dogs.

I keep my dogs leashed all the time unless when we're at the off leashed park. Its for my dogs safety. I, however, am always prepeared to KICK any STRANGE DOG who I feel is threatening the safety of my dogs. This is also the very same reason why I dont let my dogs approach others unless they are openly invited to do so, because I do understand that all "LOVING DOG OWNERS" are just like me, always prepared to protect their dogs.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

MUDRA: I keep my dogs leashed all the time unless when we're at the off leashed park. Its for my dogs safety.

RESPONSE:
many fenced dog parks are actually quite dangerous for dogs.
people who want to socialize their problem dog often go, much to the danger of everyone else.
i allow oinest to play with many of these dogs, watching carefully, because he is good with them...
but i have seen and been told of many bad situations.

i prefer that he play with the dogs at the beach, because the owners genereally need to trust them before setting them free there.
----------------------------

MYDOGSPOT:
Not that you will care too much about this but because my dog was attacked in an on leash area by dogs that were off leash...

RESPONSE: 
but i do care.
and i would not have had oinest unleashed in such a place.
that's the difference.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

You say that you will take upon yourself any legal ramifications if something happened with a leashed dog.

What about Oinest? What if he attacked another dog (on leash), that owner stepped in and got bitten? Are you going to ask the person euthanizing Oinest to explain to Oinest that you were just trying to give him freedom?


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## Mudra (Nov 1, 2007)

I am aware of the "danger" of trusting your dog run off leash at the dog park. However, I am not like other irresponsible owners who go to the dog park and let their dog run freely with very minimal supervision. I stay where my dogs are no more than 20ft from me. I keep my eyes on my dogs all the time. Most dog owners can sense "danger" right before it happens. This is when I put the leash back and take my boys home.


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

dog-man said:


> mydogspot:
> 
> i am not going to take the heat for the negative experiences people have had with other dogs.


The problem here is you also seem unwilling to take the heat for the negative experiences people have had with YOUR dog. 

I think that's where people here are getting annoyed with you. It's like you see how other people are causing a problem, but fail to see that you are also part of that problem yourself. 

I also don't really see the point in discussing this topic anymore when you don't seem to be really absorbing the meaning of the stories/advice that people are offering. You are a first time dog owner, many people here have more dog experience than either you or I could hope to gain in a lifetime... I value their advice and know that they give it with a reason, and that reason is with the animals best interest in mind.

Despite this issue that it seems we will never come to an agreement on, I do hope that you'll stick around and learn more from the collective wisdom of the board


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

dog-man said:


> LAURELIN: Oinest should not be judging anything- he is a dog.
> 
> MAYBE YOUR DOGS ARE NOT UP TO USING THEIR JUDGEMENT...MINE IS, AND PROVES IT EVERY DAY.
> -------------------------------------
> ...


These two answers just sums it up. First of all, a dog cannot not "use judgement" IMO. I think it's well documented that they learn by associating two objects for the most part. In any case, a dog using judgement is not what is going on here. 

And then, he says he's not bothering people. However, in answer to my question he admits that just the other day oinest blatently disregarded his cue to stay and "bothered" a teenage girl at the park. I guess that doesn't count or is just so minor that he's okay with that. Looks like there is more than one exception to the the point. 

Look dog-man, I'm sure you and your friends which congregate at the beach and your dogs play off leash are having a great time. And that's a good thing. However, because it is a public place and people with leashed dogs ARE allowed to be there, you should be 100% in control of your dog and cue him NOT to approach AT ALL. You shouldn't be allowing oinest to make that decision, you should be making it. Although, looks like you are making the decision that oinest can approach any dog he wants to approach. I don't think the argument (now) is about oinest playing with his buddies off leash in the custom hours of offleash time. I think it's about the attitude that you have that oinest has the ability to make the decision on whether it's okay to approach a dog or person with a dog, or a person without a dog. You, as the owner of oinest, are to make that decision, and the decision SHOULD BE that oinest isn't allowed to approach a stranger unless YOU HAVE PERMISSION FROM THAT PERSON, or DOGS OWNER. That likely means that since you don't have 100% recall of oinest, that you should have him leashed in an area where a person with a leashed dog is walking through, or atleast leash him when you see them approaching. 

Your attitude that oinest has the mental capacity to know right from wrong upon human standards is quite interesting to say the least. I understand that perhaps you haven't had a MAJOR incident, and maybe you never will, but gosh you are taking a big risk in today's society. 

good luck


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

So when your dog gets severly hurt/attacked by a dog that is on leash you will be the person that blames the other dog and owner pretty much? It really doesn't matter if the others dogs were viscious or not they were clearly being properly contained............. It's people like you that make it hard for responsable owners cause let me tell you I own 4 APBT's and If I had one of them on a leash and your dog just comes walking up and gets attacked (cause trust me it will happen one day) It will be my dog that's gets taken away just because of what breed she/he all because you were irresponsable and let your dog run free. I just don't understand people like you that think you and your dog can just do what ever no matter the consiquences to everyone else.........................


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

JENTN: 
What about Oinest? What if he attacked another dog (on leash), that owner stepped in and got bitten? Are you going to ask the person euthanizing Oinest to explain to Oinest that you were just trying to give him freedom?

RESPONSE:
i don't know how to respond.
freedom has some dangers.
i deal with that all the time as my kids need to cut the apron strings.
it's all a matter of judgement calls in every situation.
----------------

btw, for those of you who think i care about dogs but not people.
just a minute ago, i had a very touching experience.

a few weeks ago, we had a family party at my house.
i invited my brother's mother-in-law, who is 80.

she is an accomplished artist, who makes an excellent living selling her paintings.

even though i was tired after the party, i didn't want her to take the train home (a safe train), so i drove her and three other guests into manhattan...2-1/2 hours round trip.

i was just shocked by the delivery of a beautiful, large painting.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

dog-man said:


> MUDRA: I keep my dogs leashed all the time unless when we're at the off leashed park. Its for my dogs safety.
> 
> RESPONSE:
> many fenced dog parks are actually quite dangerous for dogs.
> ...


I think that lots of people must not have a lot of experience with the type of place you are talking about. I take my dog to run in the woods, a place like that. There is no leash law where I go, that is probably the only difference. It is a very dog friendly place with very well socialized dogs and the only one I have ever seen on leash was a beagle. It would be crazy for a person with a leash aggressive dog to go there as the woods are full of off-leash dogs walking and playing together. There are a couple of aggressive labs that we have learned to avoid and if I see a human without a dog, I call my dog to me until I know if they want to meet him.

The beaches in MA in winter are often de-facto dog parks and as most people agree, you shouldn't bring a leashed dog to a dog park  There is a lot of brick wall behavior going on on both sides of this argument and it has gotten blown up way out of proportion. If having your dog under control at all times means having the dog at a heel, what is the point of off-leash? If your dog has a good recall and is bullet-proof with other dogs I don't see what the problem is in that environment. 

Elana, I hope, if a truly great dog, such as an escaped Molly or Esther, came bouncing towards you, you would think twice about using your cattle prod. Or do you really not make any judgements based on body language?


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

dog-man said:


> JENTN:
> What about Oinest? What if he attacked another dog (on leash), that owner stepped in and got bitten? Are you going to ask the person euthanizing Oinest to explain to Oinest that you were just trying to give him freedom?
> 
> RESPONSE:
> ...



I am not trying to be harsh or mean, nor do I think you don't care about humans. i just think you are having a hard time seeing past what you think is right for your dog. 

I understand about cutting the apron strings for kids. However, I think for dogs they should remain firmly intact. Dogs and kids are not the same. Oinest will not leave the nest to start his own family. 

I think for h is safety, a leash at the beach would be in order. I also think you should put yourself in others' shoes. What you consider and keep saying is "minor" could be major to others.

I was at my moms and had just buckled my 1 year old son in his carseat. I realized the diaper bag was on her porch, so I went to get it ( a few steps away), leaving the car door open. My mom's neighbors jack russell puppy came running from behind her house (they don't keep her in a fence or in the house, because she looves to run the neighborhood so much!) and jumped up on my son's lap. Here is a 1 year old screaming in a carseat, unable to get out, until I got to him and got her down. The neighbors thought it was cute and laughed it off. *I did too, not speaking out, and told them how cute she was, and dogs will be dogs, etc.* Inside I was fuming.

A year later, my son is scared to death of small dogs. He will walk up to a rottie if I let him, but freak out over a Yorkie. I truly believe that moment was a major event and set him back in the dog department. I'm sure they thought it a "minor" incident.


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## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

with all this discussion, oinest is giving me a dirty look now...why the $&*?! haven't we gone to the beach yet.

see you later.


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## Melou1889 (Feb 26, 2008)

Gotti sometimes gets more upset by a dog off-leash only when he is on one. Maybe its because he is restrained and can't defend himself.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


> SHALVA:
> Golden Retrievers are very dominant towards other dogs
> that you even made that comments shows how little you know about dogs or Golden Retrievers specifically......
> 
> ...


Dog-man, to an extent a dog is a dog is a dog. Any dog of any breed can be aggressive. 

Not everyone likes the retriever personality either. They may be too outgoing for some dog people. they might not like a more aloof dog... Other dogs might not like the way he is so outgoing.

I'm saying this a previous retriever owner including a dog that was half golden retriever. 

Even if your dog is a golden, that will not keep him from being injured by a leashed dog or angering another dog.

The offleash dog that started the dog fight with my dog was a Golden. My dog was half golden. Being a golden is not magically going to mean there won't be problems or unpleasant encounters..


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## Melou1889 (Feb 26, 2008)

sw_df27 said:


> So when your dog gets severly hurt/attacked by a dog that is on leash you will be the person that blames the other dog and owner pretty much? It really doesn't matter if the others dogs were viscious or not they were clearly being properly contained............. It's people like you that make it hard for responsable owners cause let me tell you I own 4 APBT's and If I had one of them on a leash and your dog just comes walking up and gets attacked (cause trust me it will happen one day) It will be my dog that's gets taken away just because of what breed she/he all because you were irresponsable and let your dog run free. I just don't understand people like you that think you and your dog can just do what ever no matter the consiquences to everyone else.........................


I don't understand why anyone would hope for this. I lived in Brooklyn 16yrs of my life. Everyone upstate thinks its the worst place to grow up. No 2 dogs are the same and the same goes for humans. To say that "it is going to happen" is bringing back karma on yourself. I just think maybe things should be expressed differently.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> see you later.


I'm glad you're finally done with this thread.


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