# Don Sullivan's "The Perfect Dog System"



## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

I start work late today and am at home with my dog this morning. He loves to watch TV- particularity cartoons or shows with animals. I'm flipping channels and I see something called The Perfect Dog which I assume is a kids show about dogs. I put it on for him and quickly realize that it's an infomercial for this dog training "system" where all these people are giving testimonials saying their dog was out of control and then 5 minutes with this system changed their behaviour and made them perfect. What the hell kind of crap is that? Then this jackass shows up on the screen and starts talking a bunch of bull about how puppies misbehave because they don't respect you as the leader of the pack.
I can't believe theres another tool like this getting airtime on TV and selling this BS to poor naive dog owners who are going to begin mentally torturing their pets a la Cesar Millan.
Basically he's selling a $60 plastic prong collar (for dogs as small as 3lbs!!!! what???!!) and a DVD about how your dog wearing this collar ALL THE TIME is the only way to humanely correct him the way the mother dog would and the only way to gain his respect as the alpha and leader of the pack. :doh:
I already have a headache thinking about all the stupid people who are going to try and register for my classes only to tell me about how they've been bullying their dogs to earn their "respect." Or people who are going to be looking to put prong collars on toy dogs.
The best part about this is his "guarantee" that it will work followed by text at the bottom of the screen that says in may not work for pit bulls because they are bred to be aggressive. WHAT?!?!?!
How can someone who claims to be a trainer claim that pit bulls can't be trained? 
Ugh. Sorry for the rant. I just can't believe this stupidity.
He claims positive reinforcement doesn't work because your dog learns to use you for treats and then becomes fat and non-obedient. He actually said FAT AND NON-OBIEDIENT.
And here I was thinking (hoping?) that trainers on TV were shifting away from the dog whisperer ideal and using methods that are more humane, more effective and SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN!
I realize that there are certain times and certain dogs when a prong collar can be helpful but those times are so few and far between and the biggest problem is that most people who use them have dogs that don't require them, they fit them incorrectly and then use far too heavy of a hand. When an average joe uses a correctional device it can very quickly become abusive. Selling a mail order prong collar for people to use all on their own is such a bad idea. 99% of dogs that I've trained do amazingly with marker training and more important than the commands themselves that the dogs learn to trust and respect their owners as they bond. Not out of fear. And he keeps using the word "puppy". Who would put a prong collar on a puppy??? Or any dog that weighs 3 lbs???
Jebus. Someone calm me down. lol.
You can see the redonkulousness for yourself here. www.theperfectdog.com Try to avoid repeatedly smashing your head into the nearest wall or table.

Edit: I just saw that on his website you can buy "leather training gloves". Why do you need leather gloves to train a dog??? hahahahahahahaha what a tool.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

But...he has a HAT! He must be reputable...he has a hat and everything!  In fact, it's a little bit like the Crocodile Hunter's hat and we all know how AWESOME he was with animal behavior, so this guy must be equally awesome! It's all in the hat!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I just... ugh. Things like this just make me sad. It's even worse when people you know and thought to be intelligent buy into it.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

People are just always looking for a shortcut or formula. They want training a dog to be more simple than Ikea instructions. "Do x, then y, and within a set, short period of time, your dog will be PERFECT." You see the same thing with any other human endeavor. People want the quick, clear, easy route rather than having to take the time to fumble around and learn.

As an aside, though, I've seen people use leather or nylon training gloves in Schutzhund, particularly with intermediate dogs doing bite work. I also wore gloves a few times when first teaching my dog bite inhibition because, well, puppy teeth HURT!! Still, the way this clown is marketing prong collars, long leashes, and gloves, makes it sound like they are the secret to success...not the brain of the person using them.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> People are just always looking for a shortcut or formula. They want training a dog to be more simple than Ikea instructions. "Do x, then y, and within a set, short period of time, your dog will be PERFECT." You see the same thing with any other human endeavor. People want the quick, clear, easy route rather than having to take the time to fumble around and learn.


Anything would be simpler than IKEA instructions. The last table I put together came with instructions for an interpretive dance entitled "Existential Pain of the Lack Table, an Investigation into Being".


I've seen the ad referred to in the OP. It sounds so amazing and they never really say quite how this "system" works. Just lots of really shiny, happy people talking about how happy and shiny they are while their dogs throw off every calming signal in the book right next to them. Creepy if you know what you're looking at, which most people don't.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

That's because he's not a trainer, he's a business man preying on the people who are looking for a quick fix. If he doesn't do it, someone else will.



packetsmom said:


> People are just always looking for a shortcut or formula. They want training a dog to be more simple than Ikea instructions. "Do x, then y, and within a set, short period of time, your dog will be PERFECT." You see the same thing with any other human endeavor. People want the quick, clear, easy route rather than having to take the time to fumble around and learn.


It's true. People are easily frustrated and anthropomorphize their dog's behavior. They don't want to think about what is actually happening because it goes over their heads and they "don't have time". I truly believe that if cognitive science was taught in high school we'd have better parents, employers, people in authority, and dog owners...

I told a man once he should look for a way to stimulate his dog's mind so she doesn't have to dig in the backyard for it, and he got bitchy with me, saying how he wanted to get a shock collar to "shock the little ******" because he felt the dog was doing it to challenge his authority (insecure much?). Can't reason with people like that, they have to be right or it breaks their ego complex.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> Can't reason with people like that, they have to be right or it breaks their ego complex.


Sadly, it also does a number on their poor dog.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> Anything would be simpler than IKEA instructions. The last table I put together came with instructions for an interpretive dance entitled "Existential Pain of the Lack Table, an Investigation into Being".
> 
> 
> I've seen the ad referred to in the OP. It sounds so amazing and they never really say quite how this "system" works. Just lots of really shiny, happy people talking about how happy and shiny they are while their dogs throw off every calming signal in the book right next to them. Creepy if you know what you're looking at, which most people don't.


ound:
I have a theory that, instead of pre-nuptial counseling, that couples should be forced to spend a day together putting together Ikea furniture as a test to see if they are ready for the commitment of marriage. If, by the end of that day, they have not killed each other, they should be good to go! 

Back on topic...

I think, perhaps, this is actually The Stepford Dog system. It reminds me of the movie and the way the Stepford wives looked, except here the people look very Stepford and the dogs looked scared as hell, waiting to go in the machine to be Stepford-ized.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

He's been around for a long time. I guess what people want is a perfect dog who's too scared to leave your side. . .

There's a local trainer who has some sort of "program" that's supposed to make your dog perfect without any actual training. Kind of like a weird NILIF, I gather (of course the program isn't outlined on their website---otherwise you'd just do it yourself and not pay them! ). Because once your dog "respects you as leader of the pack", apparently no training is necessary . I think they might be Don Sullivan followers.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

You know I have been tempted to buy it just to see what's on it ... But I'm not gonna order it & pay out the arse, but if its ever at a flea market or something I told OH I might pick it up

Does anyone have it? Or has anyone seen it or know anything about this guy?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

He used to call himself "The Dogfather", if you want to Google that you might find more info.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Torrent it lol. Don't give that tool your money. I presume it's something along the lines of tell the dog to stay and then pop correcting him until he does. :/


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I saw this and went online. Then I found out he uses Cesar Millan training and when all of you confirmed it for me, I knew I wouldn't take any of his training tips if he was the last person on Earth. I also told my father this because he saw the show on tv and thought it was good. When he heard also he uses CM training, he backed off. Sadly my brother uses CM training with his girlfriend's Dachshund. He won't hit the dog, but it's hard to divert him away when the dog listens now. 

It is sad that many people just see CM or others like him with training. There is a minority where the good trainers will use positive based formats for their dogs. As much as the PetsMart employee who sort of helped trained Luke was wishy-washy, she did use positive based methods. I wish there were more good trainers out there for people to see and follow.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

packetsmom said:


> People are just always looking for a shortcut or formula. They want training a dog to be more simple than Ikea instructions. "Do x, then y, and within a set, short period of time, your dog will be PERFECT." You see the same thing with any other human endeavor. People want the quick, clear, easy route rather than having to take the time to fumble around and learn.



Oh, I can put ANYTHING together from IKEA. Haven't been stumped yet. Maybe I should start a dog training system! 




Amaryllis said:


> Anything would be simpler than IKEA instructions. The last table I put together came with instructions for an interpretive dance entitled "Existential Pain of the Lack Table, an Investigation into Being".


Hahaha - that's a good one  

My mom just makes me put everything together. Wally just likes to hide the Allen wrenches and gnaw on those little wooden pieces you get sometimes. I guess he's trying to up the challenge.




Amaryllis said:


> I've seen the ad referred to in the OP. It sounds so amazing and they never really say quite how this "system" works. Just lots of really shiny, happy people talking about how happy and shiny they are while their dogs throw off every calming signal in the book right next to them. Creepy if you know what you're looking at, which most people don't.



Only thing those ads are good for is practicing observing calming signals. 

If they said how it works, it wouldn't be so miracle working. People might actually google "negative reinforcement dog training" instead and figure out how to do it on their own - or inquire about it at a local trainer or something - no money for "The Dogfather" (what's with these names).


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

"Thanks for purchasing this video" ... lmao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wYyc85hDjs



Best if consumed with sound off and eyes closed. Don't say I didn't warn you.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I think it's hilarious what he has to say about Pit Bulls, a Pit Bull would be more forgiving of such horrible training techniques than a lot of other breeds!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Lol I couldn't make it through the whole thing xD, blah blah blah ......... Lol.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have seen that info blab. I was bored. Not showing me what was so great about his system other than a plastic prong collar and a long rope. I can go to the farm store and get a long rope. When my dog is trained, turn that rope into a clothesline for a lot cheaper. I am surprised have not seen this in the aisle of 'Seen on TV' at the local Walmart store yet. He is a business man after all and I am sure he would sell a lot more of his crap training DVD and gimmick systems.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Did anyone make it through the whole thing? I tried to make it through but I just couldn't :/


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Did anyone make it through the whole thing? I tried to make it through but I just couldn't :/


I didn't even bother watching it.. I don't care about what he has to say!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

When he described his 9 week old lab as dominant and aggressive, I went deaf.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Did anyone make it through the whole thing? I tried to make it through but I just couldn't :/


I thumbed through it, probably watched 40 min in total.

He says flat collars are useless training tools. 
.. matches my opinion of him, I suppose.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

He sounds like a tool


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> He says flat collars are useless training tools.
> .. matches my opinion of him, I suppose.


Post of the week!


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> When he described his 9 week old lab as dominant and aggressive, I went deaf.


That's as far as I got through it as well.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

I skipped through a bit and when he started talking about how great remote shock collars are but prefaced it by a blurb about how they are illegal in some countries I rolled my eyes and X'd out.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

There is little doubt that his system works. Of course it does. The question becomes, What kind of relationship do you want with your dog. And also, How far do you want to go in your training.

If you are going to work on complex behaviors that require team effort, this method is most likely going to squash your dog's training drive too badly to go very far. If you want to do utility work, agility, tracking... (most dog sports actually,) shutting down your dog and breaking partnership will probably limit or destroy your ability to go very far as a team.

If you want a thinking dog, this method is a mistake. If you want a servant/robot, this might be your method.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

petpeeve said:


> "Thanks for purchasing this video" ... lmao
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wYyc85hDjs
> 
> ...


Is that a.... fila? At the start?


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Is that a.... fila? At the start?


Oh great. So I had to go watch the video and see. That dog could be a Fila. I loved watching that dog rub its head all over his jeans. I was waiting for the dog to leave a big slobber/goober on his pants. I did skip through the video. Really! He had to wear BIG leather gloves when training a puppy. All I could see is that poor pup not really sure what to do except to keep its tail down and try to figure out what it should do to avoid being corrected. The guy must not now that training methods have changed since the 'train your dinosaur' age have passed.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Watched another 45 minutes or so, this morning.

Lowlights, re: retrieve 
- chopping the dog (harshly) under his chin to get him to release a ball. The footage was edited at the point of impact, obviously for a reason. Still, you could tell it wasn't pretty.
- flicking a 7 week old Pom on the nose to get him to release a ball. The pup was on a flat collar, as he wouldn't be ready for the prong for another three weeks.


The guy's an idiot. Exclamation point.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I have encountered enough people along the way who use his methods. I was always "somewhat" curious about the Kool Aid, but was never willing to pony up the money to see it. Thank you, petpeeve, for the free peek. Still a bit over-priced, but now I understand.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

My eyes already got real squinty and I'm less than a minute into it.... he just said the best time to train a dog is when it is 3 months old. The best time to train a dog is... ALWAYS. Seriously, this is one of my biggest pet peeves, when people check "training the puppy" off some list like it is something you do once when they are young and then you are done forever as if you never have to practice or teach them anything ever again.

/rant


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

"Will Scale" wtf?!?! 


Why am I even watching this lol.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Why am I even watching this lol.


I agree. I suffered through 1 1/2 hours of it just for the sake of morbid curiosity. What a colossal waste of time, let alone money if anybody actually paid for it.


moving onward, and upward ....


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

But he has a hat! He must be smart!


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## Sena Hansler (Jun 26, 2012)

> chopping the dog (harshly) under his chin to get him to release a ball. The footage was edited at the point of impact, obviously for a reason. Still, you could tell it wasn't pretty.


 .... Ow. How about an uppercut to someone's face because they are chewing on their necklace? Basically the same thing isn't it? And I am sure doing that to kids is illegal...

Anyways, the real thing I wanted to ask was... A PERFECT DOG?! Where can I buy one? And does it have a manufacturer's warranty in case it fails to do as it is supposed to? I want to make sure it'll fit in with my perfect lifestyle with my perfect house and perfect spouse in this perfect world we have with our perfect government and perfect justice system.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

I'll admit I didn't really watch the video, but the reactions you guys are posting are priceless.



NicoleIsStoked said:


> But he has a hat! He must be smart!


I totally missed that! How could I have been so naive!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I couldn't make it past his monologue xD.

I guess then what I am doing wih buddy isn't "training" then ... Because everything he "knows" (walking on a leash, sit, stay, etc) he learned WHILE with me. AS an adult


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Watched another 45 minutes or so, this morning.
> 
> Lowlights, re: retrieve
> - chopping the dog (harshly) under his chin to get him to release a ball. The footage was edited at the point of impact, obviously for a reason. Still, you could tell it wasn't pretty.
> ...


Ick. How about, just offer a tasty treat in exchange for the ball. The dog will have to open its mouth to get the treat. Voila! Dog has released the ball AND thinks this is something worth doing again, rather than thinking the ball is an evil object of pain.

It drives me nuts when people lift up on a leash, pulling the dog up by its neck to release a ball, but compared to a chin chop or nose flick...that sounds positively cuddly.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

petpeeve said:


> Watched another 45 minutes or so, this morning.
> 
> Lowlights, re: retrieve
> - chopping the dog (harshly) under his chin to get him to release a ball. The footage was edited at the point of impact, obviously for a reason. Still, you could tell it wasn't pretty.
> ...



Someone thought I was doing that to Wally today.

We were playing catch with his little baseball and when he brought it back, I put my hand under his chin and Wally dropped the ball into my hand.

So the guy saw it said I must have used Sullivan's system. I said - nope, just let him figure out that when he dropped the ball, we could keep playing. Eventually, I used the word "give" to have him do it on cue and then later just put my hand under his chin when I said "give" and he put 2 and 2 together, so to speak.

He was pretty amazed. Funny - what people think is amazing, I think is like...just dog's using their brains.


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## Sena Hansler (Jun 26, 2012)

Treats for the ball won't budge my girl  But offering a second ball, she might take the bait... Lol! We'll get her to learn to drop the ball eventually  But not with upper-cutting her....


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## scooterboy (May 6, 2015)

I'm a brand new person here...VERY brand new. Just posted a question in another section so I know that I may be stepping on some toes but I don't mean to. I'm merely sharing my opinion and offering some insight that might help.

I personally try to watch/listen/read, etc something before passing judgment on it. I'm kind of surprised at all the hatred of DS and seemingly by many that haven't even watched the videos let alone attempt to train using his methods. I don't know any connection that he has to Cesar whatever-his-name-is but I think the man is a genius. I've purchased his dvd's twice (go ahead and laugh...ha ha) since the first time the ex got the dog and the dvds. He makes a lot of sense and after having the opportunity to start training the dog using his methods, I was blown away. It's all a matter of opinion but I do think there are problems with rewards based training. (food) He talks a lot about looking at a dog the way he looks at us....understanding the pack, etc. And....contrary to popular belief his training methods are anything but cruel and anyone that thinks so hasn't taken the time to watch and learn. His goal is to help dog owners have their dog off leashed trained. I could go on and on but I thought it would be helpful for someone to share their opinion that's actually seen the videos. They cost about $70 or so and there is a ton of information along with the training collars and leashes. Well worth the price.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Nobody is denying that his methods work. But they work because you are installing fear in your dog and essentially bullying him/her into doing what you want rather than teaching your dog to enjoy interacting with you and thinking. If I slapped a baby in the head every time it cried, it would probably stop crying eventually but did I really teach it anything other than to fear a consequence?

Science has shown over and over that domesticated dogs are NOT pack animals. They do not hold any concept of hierarchy, especially not towards humans. Dogs have been bred for 10s of thousands of years to work with humans. They do not fight us for resources. Therefore 'dominance' is not a real thing. Feel free to check the Google for yourself. 

As someone else mentioned a few pages back, it really all comes down to what kind of relationship you want with your dog. If you want a loyal companion for life who TRUSTS you, respects you, loves you and is eager to impress you and learn from you, you need to use reward based methods. (Reward based methods involve a combination of food, toys, play, and praise if done correctly. Not just fattening your dog constantly.)
But if you want your dog to be your slave and not ever think for himself/not have the desire to learn from you, or to explore his world, then yes, the DS system will get you what you want. But man would I hate to be your dog.


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