# My puppy just bit me!



## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Sorry, this is a long one!!

Hi all,

My puppy is 20 weeks old (4.5 months) and until this morning I thought he was doing really well. He's happy, playful, and he's very sweet-natured. He likes to learn tricks (we just finished 'through' and now I'm teaching him 'moonwalk' - i.e. walk backwards) and he really loves people, all people, all sizes. Actually our nick name for him is 'lup lup' because of the sound he makes when he's trying to lick you. He'll lick anyone - down to the bone if he could! All day, he's wagging his tail and trying to lick  

But then this morning he bit me, almost out of nowhere 

He had a piece of something in his mouth, and when I went to see what it was he growled at me. I reacted by saying 'NO!' then grabbed him and tried to see inside his mouth. At which point, he swallowed whatever it was, whole, and growled even louder. I grabbed him even more tightly and gave him a shake and half-yelled 'NO! DON'T GROWL AT ME' and then he bit me. I pulled my hand back, smacked him and held him down, waiting for him to stop trying to attack me, but he didn't. Scary thing is, his pupils were completely dilated and his eyes looked red. He was really nuts. Eventually he settled down and I put him in another room (where he started to cry). Then when I looked at my hand I saw that I was bleeding in a few spots.

So anyway, now that I've done some reading, it turns out that my reaction was completely wrong (although at the time I wasn't really thinking, I was just angry and then trying to hold the snarling beast down so he wouldn't bite me again). 

What would make him snap like that?? 

Any given day, I take stuff off him at least 10 times. He's basically fine with it. Sometime's he's a little reluctant but he's not aggressive.

Usually, I walk right up and say 'what have you got? can I see?'. Then, if it's something dangerous or forbidden (wood, rubbish, underwear), I say 'no, you can't have that' and take it off him. When he gives it to me, I give him a reward (usually a piece of cereal - I keep containers of the stuff around the house for exactly this reason, and to reward him for peeing on his mat, doing tricks, etc.)

If it's something I don't mind him having (piece of cardboard, old tissue, old sock), I take it, make a pretence of looking at it then and say 'ok! you can have it' and give it back.

So he knows that when I take something off him he's either going to get a food reward, or lots of cuddles and praise, or get the item back. Which is why I can't understand why he bit my this morning.

Actually, this is the second time this has happened, but the first time I passed off as puppy-behaviour. That time, he had a piece of aluminium foil and he growled when I came to take it off him. But he was only 9 weeks old back then, and that's when I started making sure I rewarded him for giving up things, so I thought maybe he had grown out of it.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but I'm just wondering why 99.9% of the time, he's fine with me taking things from him, and then 0.1% of the time he just snaps. And what else I should be doing to train him out of this behaviour. 

Oh, and, I'm also wondering if I should just let him have the thing next time. I'm a bit concerned that today he just swallowed the thing whole. I don't know what it was. It was small enough to fit in his mouth, so I couldn't see it properly. Could have been a plastic bottle top or a piece of wood. He doesn't usually swallow the things he chews, he just likes to chew and then spit them out later. So I'm thinking that next time he growls when he's chewing something, I should just walk away, incase he tries to swallow it whole again?

I'll keep an eye on him to see if it passes through ok.

Thanks in advance for your help!


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Glad you saw that your reaction only made things worse. It's very normal for pups to guard their resources. Overcoming Resource Guarding takes some work....teaching the pup the Drop It or Give command along with building the pups trust and confidence to do that.

Essentially, you start an exchange or trade program....trading a tasty treat for whatever the pup has in their mouth. This isn't bribing.....it's showing the pup that they get rewarded for obeying the Drop It command. This same tactic is used around the food bowl...hand feeding one kibble at a time, hands adding food to the dish, moving the dish.

A big part of the process is to use non-threatening gestures and movements....build the trust.


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## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks Tooney, but I already do that stuff!


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Welcome to the beginning of difficult stage in puppyhood. Your puppy has realized that he can test you now. If your puppy listened offleash before, do not be surprised if he starts taking off and not coming back.

Growling is a warning sign, so the bite was not out of nowhere. 
Continue working on the exchange with LOTS of praise and a "drop it" command when he drops the item. You can also start teaching the command "leave it", so as to avoid him picking up these forbidden items in the first place. There's not much else to do to solve this problem.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Luce said:


> But then this morning he bit me, almost out of nowhere


Bites never come out of no where. He growled at you and you threatened him more so he escalated his behaviour. 



> So anyway, now that I've done some reading, it turns out that my reaction was completely wrong (although at the time I wasn't really thinking, I was just angry and then trying to hold the snarling beast down so he wouldn't bite me again).
> 
> What would make him snap like that??


Again, he snapped because he warned you, he probably stiffened first, showed whites of his eyes and then growled..all back off warnings. Then you yelled, grabbed him and he fought back. I know you realize now that was the wrong thing to do but yes, we do some dumb things sometimes when WE are freaked out too.



> Any given day, *I take stuff off him at least 10 times. He's basically fine with it. Sometime's he's a little reluctant but he's not aggressive*


Ten times is not enough. Several sessions a day, set up with low value items building up to the "hard stuff". You want him to WANT to give the stuff to you, not to be reluctant AT ALL. You need to up the training AND up the rewards. Notice the bold throughout this post...you TAKE it from him but you reward him AFTER...you need to TRADE which means offering a really high value treat BEFORE he gives it up so he KNOWS that a goodie that is better is coming and GLADLY gives you the item. Only after HUNDREDS of reps will you be able to do it on cue and reward following the give. In his head you are STILL taking it away from him and that in a nutshell is the problem.



> Usually, I walk right up and say 'what have you got? can I see?'. Then, if it's something dangerous or forbidden (wood, rubbish, underwear), I say 'no, you can't have that' and *take it off him.* When he gives it to me, I give him a reward (usually a piece of cereal - I keep containers of the stuff around the house for exactly this reason, and to reward him for peeing on his mat, doing tricks, etc.)


Again, you take it and then you reward with a piece of cereal. CEREAL. Oh honey that just ain't gonna cut it. If I had tbone steak I'm not going to want to trade for a soda cracker. You have inadvertently worsened his behaviour by not making it a fair trade.



> If it's something I don't mind him having (piece of cardboard, old tissue, old sock),* I take it*, make a pretence of looking at it then and say 'ok! you can have it' and give it back.
> 
> So he *knows that when I take something off him *he's either going to get a food reward, or lots of cuddles and praise, or get the item back. Which is why I can't understand why he bit my this morning.


Giving it back is great, but he still needs the treat first. So you are rewarding the GIVE and then saying it's okay for him to have it. 



> Actually, this is the second time this has happened, but the first time I passed off as puppy-behaviour. That time, he had a piece of aluminium foil and he growled when I came to take it off him. But he was only 9 weeks old back then, and that's when I started making sure I rewarded him for giving up things, so I thought maybe he had grown out of it.


Dogs do NOT grow out of resource guarding behaviour. It is an instinctive survival tactic, some do it more than others but it ONLY gets worse if it is not dealt with properly. So you had the right idea, but it was poorly instituted. You now need to start over. First thing is to be totally freaky about puppy proofing as much as possible and then get started on training and behaviour mod. Anything you think he will find high value must not be lying around for the taking, you have to start with baby steps and with items that he is not likely to want to guard and then very gradually increase the difficulty. 

Hand feeding him, and then adding stuff to his bowl (good stuff) periodically during eating can be a help too.

I highly recommend the book "MINE" by Jean Donaldson, it's not an easy read, she writes like the Phd that she is, but the protocol works and is safe.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yeah.. to all this. Up the treats. Get a hot dog and quarter it lengthwise and then make several cross cuts.. and Voila.. 6 0 treats from a hot dog. It is not the quantity of the treat that counts but the QUALITY. 

Spam, String Cheese, bits of cooked Stew beef, bits of cooked liver.. now THOSE are a Good Trade (from the dog's perspective). Pieces should be 1/2 dime size.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Luce said:


> Thanks Tooney, but I already do that stuff!


What folks are saying is that you haven't reached the stage of the pup willingly and quickly dropping things when you ask as you still have to TAKE it from him and that's the turnaround you want. 

Make it a game, no threat, no confrontation.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

My JRT is famous for taking things and running away with them. I started doing the trade thing which was working great until she always took things cause she knew she was going to get a treat. Then it wasnt working all the time so I had to have a leash on her to catch her with out the chase game...she still really liked this game. Funny thing is after everything I have tried (and she would also growl and clench her teeth to not give up what ever she had) I just move away from her now and call her in my happy friendly voice and she drops what ever she has and comes running over to me to get cuddles . We are still working on drop it and leave it...but this is working for now so she isnt chewing and eating everything in sight until she understands the other commands 100%


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

I'm sorry, but when a puppy bites you or anyone else in anger, for any reason, he needs to instantly and firmly suffer the consequences. Doing so can well save his life.

The Monks of New Skete, in their book the "The Art of Raising a Puppy", recommends a sharp smack upward to the lower jaw (this avoids generating fear of a raised hand). Hard enough so it hurts. 

This is the only instance where they advocate physical punishment. A puppy simply cannot be allowed to get away with this. Ever.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Luce said:


> At which point, he swallowed whatever it was, whole, and growled even louder. I grabbed him even more tightly and gave him a shake and half-yelled 'NO! DON'T GROWL AT ME' and then he bit me. I pulled my hand back, smacked him and held him down, waiting for him to stop trying to attack me, but he didn't.





KaseyT said:


> I'm sorry, but when a puppy bites you or anyone else in anger, for any reason, he needs to instantly and firmly suffer the consequences. Doing so can well save his life.
> 
> The Monks of New Skete, in their book the "The Art of Raising a Puppy", recommends a sharp smack upward to the lower jaw (this avoids generating fear of a raised hand). Hard enough so it hurts.
> 
> This is the only instance where they advocate physical punishment. A puppy simply cannot be allowed to get away with this. Ever.


Yeah, um, no. Physical attacks are only going to convince the pup that he NEEDS to guard what he's got, because if he doesn't it's going to get taken away AND he's going to get smacked around. Cracker and Tooney's protocols are MUCH better plans of attack. You don't even want it to be an issue.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> I'm sorry, but when a puppy bites you or anyone else in anger, for any reason, he needs to instantly and firmly suffer the consequences. Doing so can well save his life.
> 
> The Monks of New Skete, in their book the "The Art of Raising a Puppy", recommends a sharp smack upward to the lower jaw (this avoids generating fear of a raised hand). Hard enough so it hurts.
> 
> This is the only instance where they advocate physical punishment. A puppy simply cannot be allowed to get away with this. Ever.


Yes and if you do this to my JRT she will bite you. All you are showing the dog is to be even more afraid of your hand, because not only is it going to take something from you it will also smack you....sorry but I think this is bad advice for someone who has a biting dog...or any dog.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

misty073 said:


> Yes and if you do this to my JRT she will bite you. All you are showing the dog is to be even more afraid of your hand, because not only is it going to take something from you it will also smack you....sorry but I think this is bad advice for someone who has a biting dog...or any dog.


I agree 100%. In this day and age I can't believe some people are still touting SMACKING a dog till it HURTS as a good mode of training 

@OP.. I'm not familiar with resource guarding but I will say be as positive as possible. Think like the dog is thinking... you're essentially taking away something VERY important to him.. even if it seems trivial to you. Make everything positive and I insure you you will see much greater return than you ever will with dominance and violence. 

Even though your puppy is older try playing the game where you give him a toy then trade for another.. usually this is done with little puppies but I still play it with my 3 year old dog just to reinforce that anything she gives me, she gets something just as good or better in return.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

misty073 said:


> Yes and if you do this to my JRT she will bite you. All you are showing the dog is to be even more afraid of your hand, because not only is it going to take something from you it will also smack you....sorry but I think this is bad advice for someone who has a biting dog...or any dog.


Wrong. If done correctly the dog will not associate the smack with your hand, but with his bite. That is why it's done from below, not above, and must be done the instant of the bite.

The fact that this puppy bit someone in anger has already reduced it's life expectancy significantly. Puppies who bite become dogs that bite and then they die, hopefully without disfiguring some child in the process.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

The dog didn't bite out of anger.. he reacted out of self defense. Dogs don't have the mental capacity to have emotion such as anger.

The OP reached for the dog to take the item away.. he responded with a warning growl to say that he was not comfortable with her taking away what he percieved to be his.. the OP reacted by yelling and grabbing the dog.. essentially attacking the dog in its eyes.. the dog groweld again (a SECOND WARNING) and the OP shook the dog and yelled at it louder (again essentially attacking the dog from its POV) then the dog bit her.

He was defending himself from what he percieved as an attack. He was not "angry".. he was acting instinctually as nature made him to act. The dog is in NO WAY at fault in this situation and I'm glad the OP realizes that her actions were misguided and wants to right them.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The puppy did not bite out of anger, but out of fear. He did _not_ bite when his owner grabbed him and tried looking in his mouth, but only after the owner grabbed him harder and shook him while yelling at him. He also warned with not one, but two growls before resorting to a bite. This is an easily fixable problem and no violence is necessary.

(Also, how do you know the original growl wasn't a play growl? Remember, this dog had NEVER shown any sort of aggressive behavior before.)


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> Wrong. If done correctly the dog will not associate the smack with your hand, but with his bite. That is why it's done from below, not above, and must be done the instant of the bite.
> 
> The fact that this puppy bit someone in anger has already reduced it's life expectancy significantly. Puppies who bite become dogs that bite and then they die, hopefully without disfiguring some child in the process.


First off I doubt 99% of the population would be able to smack a dog under the chin with one hand at the exact moment they are being bit on the other hand...and I still dissagree, above or below my dog is not stupid she would know I just hit her and all this would do is make the problem worse. To be able to hit most dogs and hurt you must swing your hand at least a bit...they will see this and become hand shy. My JRT has always had a peeing issue when she gets excited or scared. If I so much as raise my voice she will pee on the floor, I cant see how hitting would help this issue.

Puppies who bite do not become dogs who bite unless they are not trained properly (in most cases, I would guess there are exceptions). Puppies who are hit become fearful and and bite as dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Since the above posters have already covered the concept of high-value treats and TRADING them for whatever the puppy has that you want, I only have small comments:


> If it's something I don't mind him having (piece of cardboard, old tissue, old sock), I take it, make a pretence of looking at it then and say 'ok! you can have it' and give it back.


You gotta watch out for letting him chew on old socks, old shoes, cardboard etc because he isn't going to be able to know the difference between your old shoes and your brand new work shoes or that piece of paper vs your mail etc. Chew toys and treats (raw bones, edible treats, Kongs, nylabones etc) are the only things puppy should be chewing on.



> He doesn't usually swallow the things he chews, he just likes to chew and then spit them out later.


Same as the above-- don't let him chew anything that is not a designated chew toy and a safe one at that (general consensus is no rawhide)


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> I'm sorry, but when a puppy bites you or anyone else in anger, for any reason, he needs to instantly and firmly suffer the consequences. Doing so can well save his life.
> 
> The Monks of New Skete, in their book the "The Art of Raising a Puppy", recommends a sharp smack upward to the lower jaw (this avoids generating fear of a raised hand). Hard enough so it hurts.
> 
> This is the only instance where they advocate physical punishment. A puppy simply cannot be allowed to get away with this. Ever.



Oh, Kasey. I knew you were going to get nailed on this forum for that. 

It’s been almost 30 years since I’ve “smacked” one of my dogs. It was “the thing to do” at the time, and what most “experts” of the day would have recommended under the circumstance. He was an intact male, just reaching puberty, and he decided to growl and snap at me when I reached for something that he felt belonged to him ...

Although I had never heard of New Skete in those days, I immediately slapped the puppy under the chin - _not_ to hurt but simply to make sure I had his attention. I then grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, lifted his front two paws off the ground, and proceeded to sternly lecture him for about 2 full minutes. 

For whatever it's worth, I never lost my temper, raised my voice above a low growl, or hurt my puppy; in my mind, it was a simple, measured correction. At the time, I thought that the reprimand was handed out in a firm but fair manner, and in such a way that the pup was not compromised or negatively affected. The pup reacted in kind. There was never another issue and, since then, I've never had another such issue with any of our boys. 

But that was a long time ago - another time, another place, another me. So, after 3 decades of (hopefully) learning more about dog behaviour, if something like that happened again with a puppy of mine, would I react the same way? _Yer darn tootin’ I would!_

It may not be politically correct but, I agree with your sentiment, Kasey - any kind of real aggression towards people at the puppy stage is something to be "nipped in the bud" - _before _it becomes a real problem. I would not, and will not, put my children or grandchildren (or any other child) in harm’s way, by them having to "negotiate" non-aggression with any of our puppies/dogs.

Just my opinion. I thought I’d take some of the flack with you, Kasey.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

prntmkr said:


> Oh, Kasey. I knew you were going to get nailed on this forum for that.
> 
> It’s been almost 30 years since I’ve “smacked” one of my dogs. It was “the thing to do” at the time, and what most “experts” of the day would have recommended under the circumstance. He was an intact male, just reaching puberty, and he decided to growl and snap at me when I reached for something that he felt belonged to him ...
> 
> ...


And what happens when the dog you're dealing with does NOT back down and instead responds with the same conflictual aggression that you present it with? 

What happens when the dog becomes increasingly more aggressive to counter your aggression?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> I'm sorry, but when a puppy bites you or anyone else in anger, for any reason, he needs to instantly and firmly suffer the consequences. Doing so can well save his life.
> 
> The Monks of New Skete, in their book the "The Art of Raising a Puppy", recommends a sharp smack upward to the lower jaw (this avoids generating fear of a raised hand). Hard enough so it hurts.
> 
> This is the only instance where they advocate physical punishment. A puppy simply cannot be allowed to get away with this. Ever.


Do not use New Skete dominance methods on this pup when he already feels threatened. Dominance methods tend to do more damage than good because they damage the trust relationship between dog and owner and you need to rebuild that relatio ship as it is. 

Go to the training forum and read the thread entitled 'Doggy Zen' this excercise will teach your dog the 'Leave It' command and along with the trading game it wil help his resource gaurding. I'll give 
ore info when I get home from work.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

yea, what do they know?

http://www.amazon.com/Art-Raising-P...ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addFiveStar


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Entwine said:


> And what happens when the dog you're dealing with does NOT back down and instead responds with the same conflictual aggression that you present it with?
> 
> What happens when the dog becomes increasingly more aggressive to counter your aggression?


 I understand your concern. Good question, Entwine.

Firstly, that problem never arose. Possibly because _I was not aggressive_ (although you're free to argue that point).

Secondly, I was speaking about a puppy _which I raised and knew quite well and who, upon reaching puberty, was simply "testing the waters"_ - not an unknown pup, or adult dog with existing issues.

Third, I'm not advocating others try this; it was a measured response which worked well for me, in _this particular situation, with this particular pup_.

Lastly, what happens when a small child, _not _forarmed with one of those "high value" treats with which to trade, approaches your dog ????


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

prntmkr said:


> I understand your concern. Good question, Entwine.
> 
> Firstly, that problem never arose. Possibly because _I was not aggressive_ (although you're free to argue that point).
> 
> ...


I simply wanted you to state the particular circumstances that would be required for the method in question to actually work as desired. 

I can tell you right now, as I've seen methods like this go wrong a hundred times in the hands of inexperienced owners, that people misuse techniques like this more than they use them correctly. 

Thanks for clearing that up. I am an advocate of doing what works with you and your dog.. And a great majority of people I see come into Petco (where I work) are misusing techniques like the one given and have fear aggressive dogs so it's good to see somenoe who will acknowledge that some methods aren't for certain dogs.

And in response to your hypothetical situation I'll give you an example involving personal experience...

I trained my Chihuahua using the drop it/leave it/let go commands with positive reinforcement. I have two neices ages 3 and 7. Neither of them have ever been bitten when they take things away from my Chihuahua. She will let them have the object and come get me--she's such a tattle tale! I reinforced the situation enough, including set-ups specific to children, that she is now conditioned to properly handle it with or without the "drop it"/"leave it"/"let go" command.

That's what's worked for me, and I'm fairly confident that this is the first path I'll take with any of my other dogs as I'm constantly being praised for having such a tolerant and "good" Chihuahua. People are always saying that my Chihuahua is the only one of her breed they've ever liked.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

prntmkr said:


> I understand your concern. Good question, Entwine.
> 
> Firstly, that problem never arose. Possibly because _I was not aggressive_ (although you're free to argue that point).
> 
> ...


Emphasis mine.

I will never advocate that an owner on the internet ever take physical aversive tactics with their dog. While you, an experience dog owner, with the additional experience that comes from owning a breed that is not easy, may be able to deliver such a correction a) with the proper amount of force and b) without getting angry/aggressive, I start with the assumption that a poster cannot do either. 

If they can't solve the problem through positive methods, it's time for a specialist.

For the question of the child (and I only harp about this because "you have to bribe the dog with food for the rest of his life" is my biggest pet peeve about misconceptions of positive training), Entwine covers it well. First you condition the dog that giving things up=good and better things come to dogs. If that isn't enough, you slowly switch to a random reinforcement schedule. Sometimes the dog gets a cheerio for giving up his bone, sometimes a steak. Sometimes nothing at all. The prize for giving up something is unpredictable and therefore exciting.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> yea, what do they know?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Art-Raising-P...ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addFiveStar


No one is questioning that the Monks know what they're doing. However, it is worth noting that in the recent editions of their books, they include a forword apologizing for many of the techniques they advocated in earlier years. Cesar Milan's techniques work for him partially because he is Cesar Milan and the Monks' techniques work for them partially because they are the Monks of New Skete. 

It is extraordinarily irresponsible to encourage the average dog owner to attempt anything practiced by animal trainers with years of education and experience.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree with FilleBelle. Maybe what prntmkr did with his dog would work with this one, but we have no idea -- we didn't see the incident, we don't know how serious the dog was, we don't know what the dog's temperament is like in general, we don't know if the OP would be able to properly give this type of correction after only reading about it but never actually seeing how to do it. It's easier to suggest positive methods rather than risk having someone terrify a puppy with unnecessarily hard corrections. 

I'm not completely anti-corrections of that sort. I don't use them anymore, but I acknowledge that they can work on some dogs without causing issues (they worked on my malamute/collie, who lived 12 years and never bit). I _am_ against telling a stranger on the Internet to use them, because I feel it's easier to use those techniques improperly than it is to use positive reinforcement/redirection improperly. Also, in this case, this pup is already afraid of his owner grabbing and shaking him, so even a properly-delivered correction might feel more like a threat to him at this point.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> yea, what do they know?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Art-Raising-P...ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addFiveStar


Far more than the average dog owner, they know HOW to time a correction so that it doesn't escalate aggression, most people do not. Using their methods, or this used by Keogh or Milan can be dangerous for the average person an DAMAGE a soft dog. I've used similar techniques, but I'd NEVER advise the average person to do so. Operent conditioning is far more effective and far safer for most people and dogs therfore that's what I advise.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Kasey, 
I will not argue that punishment works, because if delivered correctly, with the proper intensity and right amount of force it does ON SOME DOGS. These dogs are usually middle of the road personalities, not OVERLY confident nor overly fearful. These dogs unfortunately are rare. 
An overly confident dog may decide to take you on. 
A soft or fearful dog may either shut down totally or respond aggressively out of fear. 
The ODDS of doing psychological damage to many many dogs when recommending physical punishment OVER THE INTERNET, which in turn may result in physical injury to the handler and/or the dog, is very high.

THis is about responsibility to the others reading this forum. About their safety and their dog's safety. 

Positive does NOT mean permissive. It means teaching the dog an appropriate alternate behaviour and removing the need to aggress. It works. Reinforcement works and is difficult to mess up..and if it messes up all you've done is given your dogs some treats....not a knock to the lower jaw.

FIRST DO NO HARM.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Entwine said:


> And what happens when the dog you're dealing with does NOT back down and instead responds with the same conflictual aggression that you present it with?
> 
> What happens when the dog becomes increasingly more aggressive to counter your aggression?


And what if in another 3 months the puppy is bug-eyed and psycho the second they get something--ANYTHING--in their possession? 
I'll agree that resource guarding is NOT acceptable, even though it's 100% "dog language" and the "warnings" were fair. But punishing puppies who haven't even been taught what TO do is crap training, IMO.
And I guarantee if anyone ever slapped my puppy under his jaw enough to make it hurt, they would be bleeding and I would be in jail


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Kasey,
> I will not argue that punishment works, because if delivered correctly, with the proper intensity and right amount of force it does ON SOME DOGS. These dogs are usually middle of the road personalities, not OVERLY confident nor overly fearful. These dogs unfortunately are rare.
> An overly confident dog may decide to take you on.
> A soft or fearful dog may either shut down totally or respond aggressively out of fear.
> ...



Oh I love the whole "positive = permissive" thing. I love clicker training and I rarely correct over a light "eht eht", but then again my dogs are soft. It's funny how people think I'm a sissy-trainer because I use clickers and cookies, when people who know me best call me "The Warden" because I don't allow my dogs to get away with any crap whatsoever. Then again, I actually TRAIN them, I don't set them up to fail so I can correct  I respect trainers and owners who are able to think outside the box, deal with the PROBLEM, and train problems out of their dogs or nip them in the bud before they start, rather than just wait and punish. I strive to be like the former


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> yea, what do they know?
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Art-Raising-P...ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=0&filterBy=addFiveStar


I think training has come a long way over the last dozen years....most of the reviews I saw there were from 1999-2000


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Some reccomended reading for the OP:

ON TALKING TERMS WITH DOGS - CALMING SIGNALS, 2ND EDITION
by Turid Rugaas

BODY POSTURE & EMOTIONS - SHIFTING SHAPES, SHIFTING MINDS
by Suzanne Clothier

MINE! - A GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGS
by Jean Donaldson

PREVENTING AGGRESSION PAMPHLET
by Ian Dunbar

These are all by behaviorists and dog rehabilitators with YEARS of experience. Jean Donaldson runs the San Francisco SPCA, Ian Dunbar is a veterinarian and was a professor at Berkely, both have helped rehab THOUSANDS of dogs. The other two have stacks of credentials as well and all are worth a read (in fact I highly reccomend EVERYONE have a copy of Turids book)


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Some reccomended reading for the OP:
> 
> ON TALKING TERMS WITH DOGS - CALMING SIGNALS, 2ND EDITION
> by Turid Rugaas
> ...


I have seen many behaviourist recommendations for aggressive dogs on this forums, but I have never seen a successful result posted. Have you?

The fact is, human aggression in puppies is not normal behaviour and is pretty rare. Puppies that bite humans aggressively are simply wired wrong, and every time they do it without consequence the behavior is reinforced.

You can spend weeks or months studying and understanding how the above positive training techniques can help your puppies aggression issues, but by the time you do, either the behaviour was a fluke will not have reoccurred, or it will have occurred will become reinforced to the point of no return.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Again, how do you know this puppy was being aggressive and not fearful? Remember, he did not bite until the owner escalated the situation by grabbing him tightly, shaking him and "half-yelling" at him.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> I have seen many behaviourist recommendations for aggressive dogs on this forums, but I have never seen a successful result posted. Have you?


Have you ever seen a failure result posted? Have you ever seen someone post saying "I tried what you recommended and it didn't work, then I tried what Kasey T said and that did work?" 

Most people post their problem, get a response, and then either follow it or do whatever they were going to do in the first place and never come back. You can't cite lack of confirmation as proof of your stance as there is NO follow data available.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> And what if in another 3 months the puppy is bug-eyed and psycho the second they get something--ANYTHING--in their possession?
> I'll agree that resource guarding is NOT acceptable, even though it's 100% "dog language" and the "warnings" were fair. But punishing puppies who haven't even been taught what TO do is crap training, IMO.
> And I guarantee if anyone ever slapped my puppy under his jaw enough to make it hurt, they would be bleeding and I would be in jail


Does your dog bite? I bet not, because if it did, more than likely it would have been euthanized by now. If it doesn't, why would anyone slap it in the jaw? Make your bravado kind of silly and pointless, doesn't it?

Normal puppies don't bite people aggressively, so they cannot be taught not to do it except by not reinforcing the behaviour when it occurs. Any response to biting other than discipline reinforces the behaviour. That's a simple fact. Sorry if you folks don't like it, but that doesn't change it.

The method of discipline I suggested is safe and effective. Safe because unlike hitting from above, it require a calculated and measured response and the amount of hand movement is limited to the distance between the floor and the jaw preventing and overzealous smack, something that is certainly possible after getting bit or watching your dog bite someone. 

It is effective because it causes more surprise and shock than pain, while keeping the dog from becoming hand shy.

The Monks have raised and trained thousands of GSDs to young adulthood. How many of them do your think are maladjusted as a result of their training techniques.

This type of discipline, and knowing when to apply, takes no experience or training, just the understanding that if it is not applied immediately after the bite, there is no benefit, and great harm, in doing it.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> I have seen many behaviourist recommendations for aggressive dogs on this forums, but I have never seen a successful result posted. Have you?


I have personally had great success with both DA and HA dogs using the positive methods. The IAABC has lots of information about WHY they do not recommend P+ for dealing with aggression. Resource guarding by the way is NOT human aggression. It is a totally different animal, so to speak. The puppy would very likely not have bitten the owner if the owner had not escalated it. 

Ali Brown is a well known behaviourist that specializes in HA and she rehabs dogs using a clicker and a treat bag. The behaviourist my client and I went to (a DVM behaviourist) about her DA dog also recommended not using punishment and specifically said the previous training of the dog (using punishment when he was acting fearful/aggressive) had most likely created more problems than the original issue. Seamus has made more progress in the last three months since the owner got on board with the methods I had been recommending for a year or more, than he had since she started dealing with the issue three years ago. The worst thing that punishment did to his behaviour was take away all his warning signals. What used to be a growl building step by step to a lunge/bite developed into a split second launch. He is now showing his discomfort when he is over threshold and communicating to us he needs to be removed. He will now sit and watch or simply walk by the dogs he used to aggressively attack. 



> The fact is, human aggression in puppies is not normal behaviour and is pretty rare. Puppies that bite humans aggressively are simply wired wrong, and every time they do it without consequence the behavior is reinforced.


You are right, it's not normal. Neither is extreme resource guarding. If they are "wired wrong" then NO training would help. That's a straw man argument to try and convince us that positive punishment is appropriate. All of these behaviour modification plans incorporate management while the training is going on to prevent practice of the behaviour so again, the reinforcement doesn't occur..so it doesn't have to recur either.



> You can spend weeks or months studying and understanding how the above positive training techniques can help your puppies aggression issues, but by the time you do, either the behaviour was a fluke will not have reoccurred, or it will have occurred will become reinforced to the point of no return.


Or you can use the quick and easy punishment and create even worse problems, most likely resulting in the dog being banished from the home or euthanized....I am sorry to be so blunt here, it's not usually my style..but you are just plain WRONG and this is simply evidence of your lack of knowledge and lack of responsibility to the others who may read these posts and ruin their relationships with their dogs. The pitfalls of punishment are well documented. But hundreds, nay thousands of PhDs can't be right...

The monks in their latest reissue of their book have changed their tune about punishment and no longer recommend alpha rolls either...they took a look at the science and the facts..why don't you?


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I don't know about other dogs but mine would KNOW if I hit her.. it doesn't matter if it was under handed over handed or she was blindfolded while it happened.. she would know. That would create more problems than it would help.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly after reading the OP a LOT of dogs would have bitten in that situation. He had something, you tried to take it away, shook him and yelled and escalated things and the dog got scared and defensive. 

This pup doesn't sound aggressive at all to me and he didn't snap out of nowhere. I think all this talk about 'biting aggressively' is silly because this puppy wasn't biting aggressively at all.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Have you ever seen a failure result posted? Have you ever seen someone post saying "I tried what you recommended and it didn't work, then I tried what Kasey T said and that did work?"
> 
> Most people post their problem, get a response, and then either follow it or do whatever they were going to do in the first place and never come back. You can't cite lack of confirmation as proof of your stance as there is NO follow data available.


I make no statement of proof of anything. I simply pointed out my observation. You would think that some of the poster recommending behaviorist would have done do based on their own successful experience.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I have personally had great success with both DA and HA dogs using the positive methods.


Just in case you missed it


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## EarthMonkey (Nov 14, 2009)

Here Kasey, Our puppy wen we first got him had some serious biting issues. he was drawing blood on both my husband and I. He did not have bite control. He was 9 weeks old when we got him. We started researching ways to control it. We read a huge assortment of ways. We read alpha rolls we tried it a few times it was absolutely ineffective, we read and heard similar things to your suggestions the few we tried were absolutely ineffective. We then heard and read yelp or say ow and walk away. That actually worked now at six months old he is trained not to draw blood even when my husband and I have had to reach into his mouth to remove a treasure of rotten meat he found even when we lifted a very sore tail (he tried to climb me to remove himself from my husband but did not actually bite either of us). 

He also had a difficult time giving up treasures when he was smaller. We did drop it and exchange like suggested by many on here. Well it worked. He now drops things and looks for a treat. Some times he thinks about it for a little while first. 

Our dog has not growled at me or my husband or if he has he rethinks it so fast it is not an issue but if he did and I hit him, yelled at him, and shook him I would expect to get bitten, and punishing him for what I deserved seems ridiculous.

Now our puppy is just one puppy but there you go the more positive approaches suggested here worked for him quite well


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## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Honestly after reading the OP a LOT of dogs would have bitten in that situation. He had something, you tried to take it away, shook him and yelled and escalated things and the dog got scared and defensive.
> 
> This pup doesn't sound aggressive at all to me and he didn't snap out of nowhere. I think all this talk about 'biting aggressively' is silly because this puppy wasn't biting aggressively at all.


I can assure you, he bit me aggressively. It was not a polite snap or nip. Yes, I am inexperienced an didn't see the warning signs he gave me and yes, now I know better and in the future I won't escalate the situation, but this was a proper bite. When I alpha rolled him (didn't know that was what I was doing at the time - it was just my automatic reaction) and held him down, I saw him go from pi$$ed off to psycho. His pupils went from normal size to completely dilated, his eyes turned red and he turned into a snarling beast. In the end I was holding him down not to discipline him, but because I was afraid he would bite again me if I let go before he calmed down.


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## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi everyone, thanks for all the thoughtful replies and good advice. 

I will find some higher value treats and increase the amount of trading-training we do each day. 

I spoke to my mum too and she suggested that if he ever growls at me again, I should say 'No!' firmly and immediately put him in a room by himself for a time out, or walk away from him and close the door to the room that he is in. 

Seems like a reasonable idea - what do you more experienced folks think?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> His pupils went from normal size to completely dilated, his eyes turned red and he turned into a snarling beast.


That's fear. Could you see the whites of his eyes? Did they kinda roll around wildly? 



> I can assure you, he bit me aggressively. It was not a polite snap or nip.


Others more experienced may correct me, but aggressive biting would be based more on the circumstances and the body language prior to it than on the force of the bite; especially with a puppy. As in unprovoked attacks not a "flight or fight" reaction.



> I spoke to my mum too and she suggested that if he ever growls at me again, I should say 'No!' firmly and immediately put him in a room by himself for a time out, or walk away from him and close the door to the room that he is in.


I have always heard to never correct/punish for growling because if you do, you will train the "warning system" out of him. Meaning he'll skip growling and go right to biting. Walking away sounds fine though; I'd be looking at what CAUSED him to growl more than the growl itself. Side note- many dogs growl while playing. If I play tug of war with my adult dog, he growls like he's going to murder someone. But he stops both the growling and the play with a hand signal from me and can switch over to sit/stay calmly.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Does your dog bite? I bet not, because if it did, more than likely it would have been euthanized by now. If it doesn't, why would anyone slap it in the jaw? Make your bravado kind of silly and pointless, doesn't it?
*Actually, no, it doesn't  Dude has bitten before, and he's going to be nine years old saturday.*
Normal puppies don't bite people aggressively, so they cannot be taught not to do it except by not reinforcing the behaviour when it occurs. Any response to biting other than discipline reinforces the behaviour. That's a simple fact. Sorry if you folks don't like it, but that doesn't change it.
*No one likes to see young puppies biting humans, but the puppy didn't bite her until she got in his face. Tag growled at me over a bone about a month ago, and I didn't have to cluck him under the chin over it.*

The method of discipline I suggested is safe and effective. Safe because unlike hitting from above, it require a calculated and measured response and the amount of hand movement is limited to the distance between the floor and the jaw preventing and overzealous smack, something that is certainly possible after getting bit or watching your dog bite someone. 


It is effective because it causes more surprise and shock than pain, while keeping the dog from becoming hand shy.
*Then why did you say you would smack them enough to make it hurt? Can't have it both ways..*

The Monks have raised and trained thousands of GSDs to young adulthood. How many of them do your think are maladjusted as a result of their training techniques.
*Since the Monks apologized and retracted several of their "alpha" crap from their books, I'd say probably quite a few.*

This type of discipline, and knowing when to apply, takes no experience or training, just the understanding that if it is not applied immediately after the bite, there is no benefit, and great harm, in doing it.
*To each their own *


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Luce said:


> Hi everyone, thanks for all the thoughtful replies and good advice.
> 
> I will find some higher value treats and increase the amount of trading-training we do each day.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't simply walk away. Instead of worrying about what to do after the growl, I'd worry about what CAUSED the growl in the first place. Dude was a horrific RG as a puppy/young dog. A friend warned me not to spend hours "backing him off" his things, because that made the "thing" he was wanting to guard that much more appealing ("look at how bad she wants this disgusting bone, it must REALLY BE COOL...") I basically would hand him a bone, and then offer him a treat. I'd toss the treat a little ways away and he would go get it, while he was away I would quietly pick up the bone. When he came back, I would hand him the bone again and leave him alone. Rinse and repeat. He went from a snotty little dog who would lunge off the floor at you to a dog who learned "drop it" like it was a dumb party trick


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Luce said:


> I spoke to my mum too and she suggested that if he ever growls at me again, I should say 'No!' firmly and immediately put him in a room by himself for a time out, or walk away from him and close the door to the room that he is in.
> 
> Seems like a reasonable idea - what do you more experienced folks think?


It seems reasonable to a human but it's really not. The growl is a communication...sometimes play, sometimes discomfort, sometimes a warning. Punishing a growl (and yes, saying no and leaving is a punishment, though a minor one) will remove the dog's ability to communicate with you in this way. 

Look at it this way:
Say your pup has a valued thing, you approach, this is what you should see in a resource guarder:

A stiffening of the body
Her nose pointed towards the object (likely between her paws) but her EYES turned towards you.
As you get closer her lip will curl and a growl will happen
If you reach for the item a snap may occur, if the dog is a SERIOUS resource guarder they may make HARD contact but this usually occurs after the previous steps have failed to keep you away several times.

What I would like people to see is the stiffening. You want to stop the process THERE and go get something to trade so the dog doesnt HAVE to escalate and we dont' have a major miscommunication/incident happen.

If you punish the grow the whole process speeds up and you totally lose the growl and lip curl...which means it goes from dog stiff and looking to a launch. This information is not meant to be specific to only RG, but in any situation where a dog growls you need to STOP (not leave) and figure out why the growl occurred.

As to the earlier post about it not being an aggressive bite that she gave you. The point that was trying to be made is that you inadvertently PROVOKED a fearful life or death reaction in your puppy and an animal who is terrified like that is only (in his mind) protecting himself..and that is not true aggression. Yes it was a hard bite, yes it punctured you and yeah, I'm sure it hurt like hell...but it was not a fact that your puppy IS aggressive. Forcing an alpha roll on a dog is the equivalent to being attacked by an animal intent on disemboweling you. Dogs do NOT force submission like this on each other without intent to seriously injure or kill the other dog. This is why your dog's pupils dilated and she went nuts.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> I have seen many behaviourist recommendations for aggressive dogs on this forums, but I have never seen a successful result posted. Have you?
> 
> The fact is, human aggression in puppies is not normal behaviour and is pretty rare. Puppies that bite humans aggressively are simply wired wrong, and every time they do it without consequence the behavior is reinforced.
> 
> You can spend weeks or months studying and understanding how the above positive training techniques can help your puppies aggression issues, but by the time you do, either the behaviour was a fluke will not have reoccurred, or it will have occurred will become reinforced to the point of no return.


 
Kasey, this puppy was PUSHED to bite, the dog gave a TON of warning and the owner did the opposite of what they should have and continued 'dominating' the dog. This puppy was acting on INSTINCT and FEAR not out of aggression, there is nothing wrong with the pups wiring. The methods you're advocating could well end in the euthinization of the dog.

I have a Dobe sitting right next to me that has fear issues and wasn't socialized untl she was 6 MONTHS old, she's never bitten because I worked with her to PREVENT a bite using the very techniques I reccomend (desensitization, redirection, attention training) and though she still shows fear at times she looks to ME (or my husband or my daughter) for how to act, THAT is showing leadership. I have helped people with resource gaurders SUCCESFULLY. 

Also, all the authors HAVE rehabbed aggressive dogs of all types, read "Bringing Light to Shadow" by Pamela Dennison. Look up the other authors credentials. Oh, and I believe there are other success stories here. 


You seem to fail to realize is aggression rehab is not a one shot deal, it's constant work the rest of the dogs life whether the issue is fear, resource gaurding or Dog aggression. Quickie solutions often end in disaster, corrections delivered incorrectly often do as well. It takes patience and being prepared to put in the work to rehab a dog and you have to keep the work up always to prevent the dog from reverting. Then knowing when nothing else can be done and when to end the rehab and send the dog to the bridge is the hardest thing of all. It's devastating for the owner and the trainer, however I don't believe this is the case for this pup.



Luce said:


> Hi everyone, thanks for all the thoughtful replies and good advice.
> 
> I will find some higher value treats and increase the amount of trading-training we do each day.
> 
> ...


Do NOT do this!!!!! you are punishing the dog for a WARNING and you will lose the warning and the dog will go STRAIGHT to bite, ending in euthinization. When the dog growls BACK OFF, look for the reson and redirect as needed. 

Here's the Doggy Zen article, copy it to Word and start working on it

Doggy Zen 

Also read and print out this article, 

*"Help for Object Guarding"*

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/RG.html

*Dr. Dunbar's IWOOFS RADIO*


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Just to drive it home.. *the puppy was not agressive.. he/she was SCARED*. Dogs don't react to fear the way humans do.. they are animals... like a previous poster said they have a FIGHT or FLIGHT response... since the OP was holding firmly on to the dog (enough to make its front feet lift off the ground) the dog was essentially trapped and was FORCED to fight instead of run.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Luce said:


> I can assure you, he bit me aggressively. It was not a polite snap or nip. Yes, I am inexperienced an didn't see the warning signs he gave me and yes, now I know better and in the future I won't escalate the situation, but this was a proper bite. When I alpha rolled him (didn't know that was what I was doing at the time - it was just my automatic reaction) and held him down, I saw him go from pi$$ed off to psycho. His pupils went from normal size to completely dilated, his eyes turned red and he turned into a snarling beast. In the end I was holding him down not to discipline him, but because I was afraid he would bite again me if I let go before he calmed down.


 
Your dog wasn't aggressive he was in FEAR for his life. Imagine if you had something very valuable and someone was trying to steal it from you, you told them to leave you alone ,they advanced on you, you warned them again and picked up a knife, they grabbed you you tried to push them away and they threw you to the ground and held you down, so you stabbed them, self-defence right? You were in fear for your life so you fought back, dogs like people often 'lose it' whem they feel their live are in danger. 

An aggessive bite is when the dog advances on YOU and bites, what you got was a DEFENSIVE bite. Yes, your dog bit you hard, possible hard enough to need stiches, but it was NOT an attack. Aggressive bite usually come in multiples and often result in severe injuries, they are rare.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

> Kasey, this puppy was PUSHED to bite


Puppies don't get the choose when it's OK to bite. Doesn't make any difference if that are resource guarding, how much warning they give, none of it. Puppies who bite become dogs that bite and people (often children) get hurt and they die. Puppies are not allowed ot bite. Ever. Period.

Normal puppies never do. Think about all the puppies you have known and what it would take to "push" them to bite. For 90% of them you couldn't, no matter what you did, and for the remaining 10% it would take some serious abuse to get them to bite, and that would be out of fear, not aggression.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Puppies don't get the choose when it's OK to bite. Doesn't make any difference if that are resource guarding, how much warning they give, none of it. Puppies who bite become dogs that bite and people (often children) get hurt and they die. Puppies are not allowed ot bite. Ever. Period.
> 
> Normal puppies never do. Think about all the puppies you have known and what it would take to "push" them to bite. For 90% of them you couldn't, no matter what you did, and for the remaining 10% it would take some serious abuse to get them to bite, and that would be out of fear, not aggression.


I'm not going to argue the point anymore, I'll continue to help the OP as best I can. If you continue to argue instead of trying to help, your posts will be deleted as they are dragging the thread off topic.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Wow, the complete ignorance in this thread is astounding.

There is no convincing someone who has already made up their minds with nonexistent experience other than a book they read by a group of people whose methods are several decades old.

My own dog, Ollie, has bit me three times in his life. Each time was due to a different reason. Each time was fixed with positive reinforcement and absolutely zero punishment. He was a neglected and abused dog in his early life, so it's no surprise.

Puppies bite. Honest, they do! It's more common than you think.

I volunteer in rescue, and nearly every dog we get in has resource guarding of some sort (what this puppy has). We give the same advice to nearly every person (the same trading advice posted here, no coercion). And we have hundreds of success stories to go with it.

I have my own success stories. My DA, leash reactive, resource guarding dog could be taken to the dog park, had a 8 year old child touch his food, and socialized on leash. Absolutely NO coercion needed.

Horo would snap at me, and she was ultimately put down because of her fearful behavior. The monsters who adopted her severely abused her until we rescued her from these sub-humans. I would LOVE to know how smacking her on the jaw would have helped her. The very concept is bewildering.

What did help her, albeit far too limited with too many setbacks (from stuff she perceived as punishing, btw, like sudden movements on my part, my deep voice, me coming home upset from work, and so on) was complete, no-contact-whatsoever, R+ training. Monks of New Skete would have killed this dog long ago.

That doesn't even include the countless dogs with resource guarding I've helped at the rescue. To date, I have seen ZERO failures that was not because the owners gave up. I *have* seen HUNDREDS of cases of the owners responding to resource guarding with violence, and the resource guarding escalate to the point the owners could barely be in the same room as their dog when he's eating.

Sorry to burst your bubble and your little book, but evidence of R+ training reigning supreme over punishment based in resource guarding or aggressive behavior is empirical.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Puppies don't get the choose when it's OK to bite. Doesn't make any difference if that are resource guarding, how much warning they give, none of it. Puppies who bite become dogs that bite and people (often children) get hurt and they die. Puppies are not allowed ot bite. Ever. Period.
> 
> Normal puppies never do. Think about all the puppies you have known and what it would take to "push" them to bite. For 90% of them you couldn't, no matter what you did, and for the remaining 10% it would take some serious abuse to get them to bite, and that would be out of fear, not aggression.


I disagree. You can push most dogs to bite in the right circumstances. Most dogs have a breaking point and will bite. I don't know where you're getting all these 'facts' from. 90% of dogs you couldn't make bite, I doubt it.

I have been bitten by my dogs before after putting them in compromising situations. I used to train in a similar manner to the OP and guess what? Dogs will bite you if you do that! Nikki bit me after I 'spanked' her once and Trey bit after I tried to roll him. Trey drew blood, in fact I have a nice scar on my hand to remind me. The fact is, I scared them and put them in a situation where they thought they would have to defend themselves. So they did. Neither of them were aggressive or dangerous dogs in the least. I just pushed them past their threshold. I went on to learn more about dog training and worked with them with positive training and neither one ever bit again. Mia has growled and bit as a puppy over resources too. She never broke the skin and it was more of a warning snap but a lot of puppies do this. Rose also snapped when we first got her if you were getting in her face. She had to be taught that we weren't going to hurt her. Likewise, they have to be taught that it's okay to remove something of value from them. This was a young puppy that was scared. To further compound this, this dog was trapped in a position that he really couldn't choose to do much more than bite.

It's all fine to say the dog shouldn't have bit, but labeling this pup as 'aggressive' and the bite as 'an aggressive bite' is not correct. Also it's silly to pretend that dogs don't bite. Dogs are animals. Keep pushing them enough and they will defend themselves.


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## losinsusan (Nov 20, 2009)

Something not mentioned in all these posts that is concerning to me is the fact that your puppy has access to so many forbidden things. How is he getting socks, foil and some of the other things mentioned. Close doors, get things off the floors and put away. Don't tempt him with so much out and about. Clean up! Just like you baby proof your house, you have to puppy proof it as well. I know of a puppy who ate three socks and died. Tin foil in their gut isn't good either. I have a 4 month old puppy and I scan the rooms for any potential dangers and make it safe for him. And I feel if you trade a treat for the forbidden object you might have the problem solved. Make the treat of high enough value that he will actually bring you other things to trade up for it. But first puppy proof the house.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I read so much about resource guarding and wonder why it's such a bad thing if a dog just wants to be left alone to eat? I know when someone goes to grab something off my plate I sure get pissy.
I was always taught as a youngster you never bug a dog when their eating so no one in my family was ever bitten putting hands in dogs bowls because we just didn't.
It seems like in these times we should be allowing every little kid to grab the dog food dish and having the dog let them, I see no point in this. I raised my daughter to not bug the dog when she was eating and everything was fine (mind you this was almost 20 years ago)
The dog we have now went for my face when she was younger when we were playing (not aggressive but in play) and I grabbed the scruff of her neck so fast and said "NO!" she NEVER did that again.
There has to be a good mix in training methods that's for sure, it can't be all positive or all negative


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

dakotajo said:


> I read so much about resource guarding and wonder why it's such a bad thing if a dog just wants to be left alone to eat? I know when someone goes to grab something off my plate I sure get pissy.
> I was always taught as a youngster you never bug a dog when their eating so no one in my family was ever bitten putting hands in dogs bowls because we just didn't.
> It seems like in these times we should be allowing every little kid to grab the dog food dish and having the dog let them, I see no point in this. I raised my daughter to not bug the dog when she was eating and everything was fine (mind you this was almost 20 years ago)
> The dog we have now went for my face when she was younger when we were playing (not aggressive but in play) and I grabbed the scruff of her neck so fast and said "NO!" she NEVER did that again.
> There has to be a good mix in training methods that's for sure, it can't be all positive or all negative


It is trained as a preventive issue. Yes, your dog should be able to eat in peace. But there are a hundred things that could go wrong. A child approaching them when eating because you looked away a second too long. 

It is simpler to just fix the issue at it's source and not have to worry about it.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

The problem is you need to be able to take things away from the dog that it is not allowed to have. My dog constantly takes things she is not supposed to  barbie shoes, lego, tinker toys you name it she steals it...out of toy boxes, and off tables. We dont bother her when she eats but we do need to take these things away when she gets them.

And for those who say just keep them away or shut the door...I wish it was that easy  I have a 3 year old and a 5 year old who always forget to close their door, plus they dont like playing with the door closed  Maggie will actually go into the toy box and root around for her "stolen choice toy" and just when I think something is working...it doesnt any more. for the last little while calling her and praising her was working...today not so much


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I've never had that problem taking things out of their mouths so I've must of been lucky in that respect.
Back in the 70's when I was very young I was bitten beside my eye and nothing was ever said or done about it, you sucked it up and life went on. I think the only time a dog bite was ever mentioned was when a kid almost died from it, totally different era.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

dakotajo said:


> I've never had that problem taking things out of their mouths so I've must of been lucky in that respect.
> Back in the 70's when I was very young I was bitten beside my eye and nothing was ever said or done about it, you sucked it up and life went on. I think the only time a dog bite was ever mentioned was when a kid almost died from it, totally different era.


Yes different erra...the same with spousal abuse and child abuse...it wasnt talked about unless someone almost died. When we know better we do better (most anyways) .


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

losinsusan said:


> Something not mentioned in all these posts that is concerning to me is the fact that your puppy has access to so many forbidden things. How is he getting socks, foil and some of the other things mentioned. Close doors, get things off the floors and put away. Don't tempt him with so much out and about. Clean up! Just like you baby proof your house, you have to puppy proof it as well. I know of a puppy who ate three socks and died. Tin foil in their gut isn't good either. I have a 4 month old puppy and I scan the rooms for any potential dangers and make it safe for him. And I feel if you trade a treat for the forbidden object you might have the problem solved. Make the treat of high enough value that he will actually bring you other things to trade up for it. But first puppy proof the house.


Very good post. I remember when we got our now 4yr old dog, he chewed stuff and was hard to housebreak; people on another forum told me it's MY fault (when he chewed stuff or peed in the house), or my husbands fault, for not watching


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## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi all,

Sorry for reviving this thread, but I've been away for a short holiday and didn't get a chance to read the most recent posts.

Thanks again for the great advice. It's reassuring to know that my little pup isn't aggressive, that he was just afraid. I was really worried that he might have an aggressive temperament. The idea of an aggressive dog around our future babies really concerned me. It's a relief to know that he's just communicating to me and that I have to listen to what he's saying. 

Actually he growled at me again today and this time I was able to defuse the situation! Again, it was my fault, but I didn't think about what I was doing until he growled. I had left the room for a second, during lunch, to check the kettle. When I came back, Otis was helping himself to the mashed potato on my plate. I said 'No!' (too loud) and ran up to him and grabbed him (not to shake him, just to lift him off the table). As I lifted him, he growled at me. Then I realised what I had done - I had just yelled, ran at him and picked him up - of course he was scared! 

So I put him down on the ground and let him go and said to him, very gently, 'no, you're not allowed to eat from the table and please don't growl at mummy' and he stopped growling. Then he followed me, with his tail down, to the kitchen while I served myself a new plate and sat very quietly while I ate the rest of my lunch (normally he's constantly whining for me to share). When I finished, I put some scraps on a plate in the kitchen for him. Happy dog!

And I'm a happy mum, because I've learnt to listen to my dog better!

Thanks again!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> And I'm a happy mum, because I've learnt to listen to my dog better!


Good to hear this. 



> As I lifted him, he growled at me.


Here's another learning opportunity. He will need to get used to you picking him up (for the vets, for grooming, for getting him out of sticky situations). This is something to practice at a calm time and make sure he feels secure when you lift him. If you have someone to feed him treats while you pick him up, even better (otherwise try to kinda hold the treat so he gets it while he is up in your arms)


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