# Tiny Terror



## LeesaMarie85 (Mar 30, 2011)

First time dog owner. Ok, so the title is an exageration, but I am having an issue with aggression in my Chorkie (all 3.5lbs of him). He is 7 months old and has begun showing what I understand to be a significant aggression problem. He growls over his food and preferred toys. The problem is intermittent and varries in degree. The behavior occurs when I pet or touch him if he is eating or playing with particular toys (natural bones, denta bones, buiscuits). Some days he will have no problem at all, some he will just crouch down and growl low, others he will bear his teeth and go as far as to snap at me. I am having him neutered in less than a week and have hopes that this will help somewhat, but don't think I will be this lucky. I have tried everything people suggested (substituting a treat for the food/toy, yelling "ouch!" even growling back). He was not abused. My husband and I plan on having children and I cannot have a dog that could be a danger to a baby. Please help!


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## mongrelmomma (Mar 18, 2011)

He is not being aggressive. He is being food/toy possessive, which isn't much better and definitely not permissible. 

Don't take this offensively, but your dog is being a little brat, like a spoiled child. He needs discipline and structure. Yelling "ouch" and growling back a dog isn't discipline. 

He may be tiny, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be as strict with him as you would a 95 lb GSD. 

What I've done with bratty dogs is grab the back of their neck hard, look them in the eyes, and firmly say NO. I would also invest in a prong collar to give him a good tug when he displays this behavior. A close family member adopted a border collie that was possessive with her food and toys a couple months back. He quickly stopped her misbehavior with this method. 

Keep in mind that not training methods aren't a "one size fits all" kind of thing. If this behavior progresses, I would definitely contact and animal behaviorist. The sooner the better.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

That is unnecessarily harsh. There is no need for scruffing and collar corrections etc.

You should play the 'trade up' game, which is basically to trade what he has for something better, and never give him bones or something he is likely to guard until it has been sorted out. Remove his most favourite toys, or only let him have them when he's in a confined area like his crate or playpen (or whatever you use).

For now he only gets the less fun toys, and then you can offer him something really yummy, like sausage or chicken or something else he really loves. Just hold it in front of him, tell him 'drop it' and when he drops the toy to get the treat, praise profusely and give several treats while you pick up the toy, then you give the toy back to him. This way he learns that it's good when you take things away from him, and he doesn't lose the object that he wants.

Pretty soon he should be dropping whatever is in his mouth when you say 'drop it'. Always reward him when you ask him to drop things, and if you can, give it back to him after.

If he's growling from just having you walk past him when he has a toy, start dropping treats on the floor as you walk past. Then he learns that it's good when you walk past him when he has toys.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

mongrelmomma said:


> He is not being aggressive. He is being food/toy possessive, which isn't much better and definitely not permissible.
> 
> Don't take this offensively, but your dog is being a little brat, like a spoiled child. He needs discipline and structure. Yelling "ouch" and growling back a dog isn't discipline.
> 
> ...


Scruffing a dog is NEVER the answer! It creates a FEARFUL dog and this could be disatrous in a dog that's already RESOURCE GAURDING.

To remedy this you're going to start by Removing ALL high value items (NO bones, chews or toys, these must be EARNED)

Then you're going to TRAIN your dog, start with http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html to teach the pup to "Leave It"

You're going to give the dog RULES and stick to them

NILIF (nothing in life is free)

You're also going to start the trading game. (This is from Dog Start Daily, Ian Dunbar's site)

*TRADE UP!
**Always 
trade what your dog has for something better. 
When your 
dog has an appropriate item, ask to see what he has and then praise and give it 
back so he doesn't think just because you are showing interest, that you are 
planning to steal.*


*1.* 
Prepare two large items, one with peanut butter or cream cheese on it, and one 
without. For safety, start with something your dog probably wouldn't want to 
keep, like a wooden spoon or paint stir stick. 


*2.* Hide 
the doctored one behind your back and hold out the plain one one and let him 
investigate it while you hold it. (Keep the item in your possession at all times 
during the groundwork of this lesson.)


*3.* 
Next, produce the "better" one AS you say "can I have that?" and praise 
"thank you!" as he leaves item number one to lick the stuff off item number two. 
While he is busy with item number two, dip item number one in a bit of peanut 
butter and hold it behind your back. 


*4.* When 
he's about finished with the peanut butter on item #2, say "can I have that?" 
RIGHT BEFORE you produce the newly-doctored item #1. After a few 
repetitions of this, the phrase "can I have that?" will come to predict "better 
item is coming" and he will remove his mouth from the item he has when you say 
"can I have that?" _before_ you have to produce the doctored 
one.


*5.* 
Change your physical orientation. Sitting, kneeling, standing. Leaning over and 
looming is often a trigger for coveting. Remember at all times that your goal is 
to NOT trigger a guarding response. If your dog goes still at any time, go back 
two steps. Do not move to a more difficult level until your dog is relaxed, 
unthreatened and willing at the previous step. When he hears the phrase "can I 
have that?" he should look up with eager anticipation.


*6.* Let 
go of the item briefly, say "can I have that?" and immediately produce the 
doctored one. He should have no problem with your picking up the first one or 
taking it as he lets go if you have worked long enough at the previous level. IF 
YOUR DOG HAS PROBLEMS GO BACK A STEP, or two.


*Increase criteria gradually.* 
The above might happen over 
several days or several weeks. The goal is to avoid bribing: "look what I have - 
wanna trade?" but instead teach the dog to give you the item without seeing what 
you have to offer. 

Future steps might include starting over at level one 
using two large rawhides and going through ALL of the above steps, one by one, 
carefully watching for any signs of reluctance. The biggest mistake most people 
make is to get into a power struggle with their dogs. They end up practicing 
guarding intead of practicing a willing exchange.


then you are going to desensitize the dog to being TOUCHED, by making being touched, picked up, ect a GREAT thing. Reward every time you touch your dog and he doesn't growl, reward for not growling when you touch areas he might be sensitive about (feet, mouth, rear) and have a reward handy EVERY time you to pick him up from the floor (and ALWAYS be sure to support his back end, most dogs find having their feet dangling SCARY).

Remebr he's still JUST a pup, and a very small dog that is going to have more to be scared of in our big human world, if you see he's getting stressed, remove him from the situation so he doesn't feel the NEED to defend himself.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

I definitely agree with implementing the nothing in life is free method.

Basically, your dog needs to learn that you are pack leader and all things come from you including food and toys.

Make him sit for his food. Make him lay down for a toy. Basically, make him work for what he wants.

Definitely work on the "drop" idea.


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## LeesaMarie85 (Mar 30, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the input! I have also heard that any type of punnishment only makes the problem worse. I have him lay down for his food and these toys and he is so eager and used to the routine that any time he sees something he wants he lays down on his own. He also knows drop it and leave it very well. He will often to both with the toys. He only reacts this way when I touch HIM, only occationally when I touch the item. I have been trying the treat trade. As soon as I touch him, he is growling so even if I wait until he stops, I feel like I am rewarding the growling. I haven't had such a good description of the method however, so I will try the whole process. Thanks so much!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Ok if he's growling more when you touch him, the FIRST thing you need to do is rule out ANYTHING medical, have him checked over, heart, eyes, hormone panel (for low Thyroid) tick panel and of course make sure there are no injuries. 

You might look at something like this 

*The *http://www.training-dogs.com/tellington-touch.html
*Tellington Touch or TTouch For Dogs*


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## LeesaMarie85 (Mar 30, 2011)

If it were medical, wouldn't he react that way any time touch him? If I remove the item, most of the time the growling stops right away, even if I am still touching him. Then he lays down and looks up at me as if saying very politely, "can I please have that back?"


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I would not have a dog that's resource guarding around small children, that's a recipe for disaster. 

As far as the medical issues, they need to be ruled out just to be sure.


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## mongrelmomma (Mar 18, 2011)

When a dog is growling in snapping, I think punishment is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't recommend this for resource guarding alone, but when a dog is showing aggressive behavior, positive-only training is NOT going to work. 

Negative behavior = negative consequences.

A lot of people that are for positive only training disagree, as I clearly see here (correct me if I'm wrong, and none of you are positive only trainers).

Scruffing and prong collars do NOT create fear. 

Scruffing and prong/choke chain collars emulate the way a dog disciplines another dog by biting the back of their neck. I see how trading can work for milder cases of resource guarding, but biting is WAY out of hand. Scruffing and prong/choke collars are punishment in a way a dog understands.

I use negative reinforcement with my four dogs and none are fearful of me. None have EVER snapped or dared resource guarding with a human.

I didn't mean to rile so many feathers, and I apologize. Just understand where I'm coming from; negative training may be a last resort but it's not "never" the answer.

Here is another great book to look at:

http://www.amazon.com/Koehler-Method-Dog-Training/dp/0876055773

good luck!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

mongrelmomma said:


> When a dog is growling in snapping, I think punishment is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't recommend this for resource guarding alone, but when a dog is showing aggressive behavior, positive-only training is NOT going to work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've trained Keohler, I've seen it ruin MANY dogs that were too soft for it. I've seen it misused and turn to abuse



> Scruffing and prong collars do NOT create fear.


Prong collars. in the hands of an INEXPERIANCED owner can cause INJURY to the trachea and CAN cause fear they are COMPLETELY uneeded for a toy breed.



> Negative behavior = negative consequences


If negative behavior is present, you make RULES and show LEADERSHIP, Hitting, scruffing ect are NEVER needed. You train the dog HOW to behave and give them better choices than biting. you build the dogs TRUST, it works I've used it.

You also NEVER EVER punish a growl, it's a WARNING and a form of communication. A dog that has the growl punished out of them is like a gun with no safety and a hair trigger. It will cause serious injury (again, personal expeience thanks to a dog that put 50 stitches in my daughters face)

As far as Emulating what one dog does to another, we ARE NOT dogs, our dogs KNOW we are not dogs. We can show leadership WITHOUT scruffing or hitting. 

Keohler is based on very old data (wolf pack model ) that has since been WIDELY disproven and even the original author of the model has said he was completly wrong. Yes, I trained three dogs to obediance titles using it, 25 years ago. I've since found that there are far more effective methods of training and behavior modification.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

mongrelmomma, you're giving out extremely dangerous misinformation. Please stop!


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

mongrelmomma said:


> When a dog is growling in snapping, I think punishment is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't recommend this for resource guarding alone, but when a dog is showing aggressive behavior, positive-only training is NOT going to work.


Really? That's weird, because not only have _I_ seen it happen but so have many members on this forum.. Some of them having done the actual training. 

Your information is very outdated and could do with a bit of an update. cshellenberger pretty much covered it--the model that the training you're offering is based off of has been proven false and flawed. 

And it's not that "negative training"--I think you mean "positive punishment" training--is NEVER the answer.. It's often counter-productive, especially for inexperienced owners who do not have the timing and knowledge to correctly punish a behavior.


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## osdbmom (Feb 15, 2011)

a prong collar on a 3 lb dog? wouldnt that be very dangerous to the trachea? toy breeds are prone to collapsing trachea, I have a 2 lb puppy, we've been cautioned not to keep anything beyond a light collar on her neck and not to even walk her with the leash attached to the neck collar, harness only.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Entwine said:


> And it's not that "negative training"--I think you mean "positive punishment" training--is NEVER the answer.. It's often counter-productive, especially for inexperienced owners who do not have the timing and knowledge to correctly punish a behavior.


Positive punishment CAN work in certain situations, However I would NEVER use for RG as it could just s easily make it worse and cause a nonbiting dog to escalate to a bite. 




> a prong collar on a 3 lb dog? wouldnt that be very dangerous to the trachea? toy breeds are prone to collapsing trachea, I have a 2 lb puppy, we've been cautioned not to keep anything beyond a light collar on her neck and not to even walk her with the leash attached to the neck collar, harness only.


Exactly, I've seen prongs and choke collaors cause extensive trachea damage in MUCH larger dogs due to over use and misuse. Plus seeing how Keohler adovocates the use of VERY harsh punishment (including 'helicoptering' ) it's a school I tend to try to stay away from. I'm not going to say Chokes and prongs have NO place in training (under the guidance of an EXPERIENCED trainer), but they certainly have no place being used to rehab.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I have never seen my adult dog scruff my puppy. When he needs a warning for rude behaviour, she usually doesn't move at all, just growls very softly at him. If she's guarding something she will jump towards him and bark or growl, but has never made contact.

So I don't believe that scruffing is part of doggy speak.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I deal with anxiety, fear and resource guarding in dogs as part of my basic training specialty. Punishment has MANY pitfalls and risks, so yes, scruffing etc is a dangerous thing to recommend..
Yes, guarding against humans (as opposed to RG with other dogs) IS inappropriate and needs to be dealt with. But teaching a dog that bad things happen when he guards will only make him guard more violiently OR shut him down to the point where he 'seems' safe and then one day the dam breaks. This is setting the dog, and the unfortunate person who gets the bite delivered to, to fail badly. Using behaviour modification with tradeup and return, conditioning the dog to WANT to give up the item rather than that he HAS to give up the item will change his behaviour safely and ensure that an accidental grab from a child or other unsuspecting human does not result in injury and the eventual euth of the dog. 

It is also highly dangerous to recommend the use of physical correction to a person on line. We don't know their capabilities or disabilities, we don't KNOW the dog...it is risky business. 

OP, it is common for dogs at this age to show anxiety (which RG is greatly affected by) as there is a secondary fear period developing puppies go through...anxiety increases behaviours like this. Working on it and through it will likely get you to a place where the behaviour is greatly reduced. Dogs do not grow out of behaviours though, any time they practice it it wires the behaviour into the brain, so working on this behaviour now, positively and carefully with management being a big part of it will help prevent this behaviour getting worse or him developing other behaviours that can cause him to be an unsafe dog. If you are unsure of any of his behaviours, please find a good trainer/behaviourist to assess the pup and your training of him. 

If you like to read, order yourself a copy of "The Culture Clash" and "MINE" by Jean Donaldson.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Positive punishment CAN work in certain situations, However I would NEVER use for RG as it could just s easily make it worse and cause a nonbiting dog to escalate to a bite.


I think my sentence structure was weird in that statement. I was saying exactly that. I meant to say that positive punishment isn't never the answer (LOL, very awkward. I mean "positive punishment can be the answer"), it's just not the best advice to give in this situation as it is often counter-productive for resource guarders. :S Sorry for the confusion.


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## mongrelmomma (Mar 18, 2011)

Koehler method IS proven in still widely used. There is a lot of misconceptions about his method but it is indeed very effective.

The "positive only" training is a fad. I didn't start seeing positive only trainers pop up until recently. I'm sure it works wonderfully for some dogs but for all the ones I've known showed no sign of being well trained. I turned these owners to negative reinforcement (or positive punishment, whatever you wish to call it) and every single one of them turned their pets into a new dog almost instantly. Again, this isn't the case for all dogs and you're right, many ARE too soft for it, but for most dogs it's worked very well. 

When I started training my dogs some years ago (not TOO long, less than 10 yrs ago), they were taught the Koehler method. My miniature schnauzer, who is just under ten pounds, wore a prong collar and sometimes a choke chain. My trainer recommended it and showed me how to use it properly. I agree that it should only be used by those who know what they're doing with it, but to call it absolutely dangerous for a smaller breed is taking it a bit far.

Compulsion is NEEDED for training. Bribing a dog with treats isn't going to be very effective-at least it hasn't in my experience. 

That being said, I think OP's issue goes beyond the need of any help that they can get from an online forum. I would ultimately direct you to look at a qualified trainer before the issue gets worse.

(P.S.-yes, dogs correct each other with a bite to the neck. Having four dogs, I see this behavior on a semi-regular basis. It's how my 9 yr. old pittie "helped" me raise my two newest pups, including the cutie in my icon.)


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Oh geez, here we go again.
Purely positive does NOT EXIST. Learning does not happen in a vacuum. I do not BRIBE my dogs and my dogs do not get away with behaviour that I don't like. If you don't get results using rewards based training then I would highly suspect that this is a handler issue of timing and marking and not going to a variable reinforcement schedule, not a food issue. Any training of any kind requires a good understanding of how it works, timing and application, regardless of whether it is compulsion based or reward based. 

Positive BASED training still incorporates negative punishment and negative reinforcement but the choice is made to not use Positive punishment (aversives) because it has many pitfalls. It is also not by any means a fad, it's been around a lot longer than people realize, but has just now started to hit the mainstream dog owner. Compulsion is not necessary for training, though trainers can choose to use it. Punishment does work (if applied properly) to diminish a behaviour, but it is a personal choice to use it or not and I find that given the risks inherent in misapplied punishment or using punishment in cases where you are dealing with fear or aggression, it is always safer and more humane to apply other quadrants to change a behaviour or to replace it with another one. Behaviour mod (as opposed to cue training) requires changing how a dog FEELS and responds to a trigger and using punishment is an illogical and poor choice. 

Much of the pitfalls of punishment were not identified (as in the cause and effect) until the last 15 years or so when companion (domesticated dog) behaviour was actually started to be studied in a scientific manner. Dog behaviour science has moved forward.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't know a whole lot with dog training, so I won't put my two cents in, but as for using a prong collar or choke chain for a tiny toy breed is soo unnecessary. I could never put one of those things on my Sydney and she's 25 pounds. OP's dog would not benefit whatsoever towards a collar like that, and could very well cause damage!


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

Question, Maggi? My old brain gets real confused with the positive/negative reinforcement stuff, so I have a question. Kodi was trained with positive methods (praise and treats). He positively knows his commands to sit or down and stay. If he breaks his stay, I tell him "aht" and redirect him to his position with his leash, not popping it - just, guiding him back to his spot and then gentle but firm pressure to put him back in place (without repeating the original command). He gets a treat then sometimes, but not always. It's happening a bit more recently as Kodi is testing his boundaries and ignoring me if he doesn't want to listen. Would that be called negative reinforcement?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Yes, pressure on his back until he sits is negative reinforcement. Once he sits you remove the pressure on his back, so he learns that he can avoid the uncomfortable pressure on his back by sitting, thus reinforcing the behaviour.

Personally I don't push on them to get them to sit, when my partner does it to them they don't even understand what he wants and usually turn around to investigate what his hand is doing on their back. If they get up before they have been released I just ask them to sit again. Another way to do it is to continually put treats in their mouths while they are holding the position you want, so they learn that this position is really really rewarding. If they get up, all treats stop, so most dogs will then resume the position because they get that in position = reward and out of position = nothing.


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

I don't put pressure on his back. He doesn't like pressure on his body and would resist. I just use light pressure on the leash to let him know where he should be and what I want, so I guess that would still be negative reinforcement. I guide him with the leash to where I want him and then put pressure downward on the leash for down and light upward pressure on the leash to sit. This is just guiding him. He doesn't need any force applied, just needs reminding. I don't tell him to sit or down a second time, just once. I always thought repeating a command was not good (except for stay). There is no force invovled, just direction. This works better for him than too many treats because he forgets all about what he should be doing and concentrates too much on the treats. He gets treats intermittently and sometimes none at all. He rarely gets this correction because he obeys pretty well. I just wondered what the correct terminology was.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Right, yeah, pressure is still negative reinforcement, he just doesn't need much pressure to respond to it. I don't like 'guiding' with the leash because I like hands off, and I like the dog to choose to do as it's told. 

I don't think repeating the cue is a big deal when it's several seconds or a minute later. The dog will have forgotten the first cue, that is why he got up in the first place, and won't see any connection between the two cues. I agree with not repeatedly having to ask the dog to sit in the first place, but if the dog sat, got up 30 seconds later and was cued to sit again, I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't use a stay cue, I use sit/down until released.

Each to their own of course


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

mongrelmomma said:


> Koehler method IS proven in still widely used. There is a lot of misconceptions about his method but it is indeed very effective.
> 
> The "positive only" training is a fad. I didn't start seeing positive only trainers pop up until recently. I'm sure it works wonderfully for some dogs but for all the ones I've known showed no sign of being well trained. I turned these owners to negative reinforcement (or positive punishment, whatever you wish to call it) and every single one of them turned their pets into a new dog almost instantly. Again, this isn't the case for all dogs and you're right, many ARE too soft for it, but for most dogs it's worked very well.
> 
> ...


Love that you took this to Yahoo answers to get "Validation" oh and just so you know, I've trained dogs for nearly 30 years, I have taken numerous dogs to Obedience titles using various methods. 

You really should do more real research, Here's some sources for you

"The Man Who Cried Alpha," Nicole Wilde.

Interview with Dr. Peter Neville.


Moving Beyond The Dominance Myth, Morgan Spector

"Interdog aggression: What are the warning signs?" 

The Dog Whisperer Controversy, Lisa Mullinax 

_The Social Organization of the Domestic Dog_, Alexandra Semyonova 


"A Fresh Look at the Wolf-Pack Theory of Companion-Animal Dog Social Behavior," Wendy van Kerkhove 



Oh and I actually find this guy to much more inline with my own training philosophies
http://www.leecharleskelley.com


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## puppielove (Apr 1, 2011)

With our terrier, we had a lot of possessive/aggressive issues in the first months he came home with us. As soon as we had him in a puppy training class he snapped in line pretty well. The local community had a few classes that were not nearly as expensive as private trainers. It also gave us a forum for professional's to show us (instead of tell us) how to remedy problems like growling when we got near his food dish.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

mongrelmomma said:


> When a dog is growling in snapping, I think punishment is absolutely necessary. I wouldn't recommend this for resource guarding alone, but when a dog is showing aggressive behavior, positive-only training is NOT going to work.
> 
> Negative behavior = negative consequences.
> 
> ...


Scruffing turned my small dog from a dog who growled over items to a dog who lunged (with intent to make contact) whenever someone went near him. Not cool.


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## mom24doggies (Mar 25, 2011)

Don't really have any advice for the OP, as I've not dealt with resource guarding (thank goodness!) yet, but I just want to say: a prong or choke collar is going to be very dangerous for a 3 lb dog. They are not built for that kind of pressure around their delicate little necks. It makes me really angry when I seen tiny little dogs with them on...it simply isn't needed!! The only dogs that need them are really big, strong dogs who don't have good leash manners...and even then, I like to try other methods first. I personally use only buckle collars on all my dogs except one, she needs a choke collar every now and then to be reminded about walking nicely.  For a dog as small as the OP's, I would recommend a harness for leash walking, and a collar for ID purposes only.


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## LeesaMarie85 (Mar 30, 2011)

First of all, I want to thank EVERYONE for they're advice. It means a lot that people take time to help a complete stranger whether the advice is misinformed or not. However, this entire thread has reminded me why I rarely use forums. The thread changed very quickly from advice to a battle on principle. I also don't want anyone to worry that I will injure my little guy with overly harsh methods. The only punishment I use is shake cans, time out (which works wonders for some behaviors) and occasionally a two finger bop on the nose. Since my original post, I have eliminated the growling over his regular kibble by using treats. Although he often forgets to eat as soon as he smells the treat. I haven't exposed him to the other items that he was guarding and intend to try trade up with less desirable items first. I will let everyone know how it goes. Again, thanks everyone for your help!




JuneBud said:


> Question, Maggi? My old brain gets real confused with the positive/negative reinforcement stuff, so I have a question. Kodi was trained with positive methods (praise and treats). He positively knows his commands to sit or down and stay. If he breaks his stay, I tell him "aht" and redirect him to his position with his leash, not popping it - just, guiding him back to his spot and then gentle but firm pressure to put him back in place (without repeating the original command). He gets a treat then sometimes, but not always. It's happening a bit more recently as Kodi is testing his boundaries and ignoring me if he doesn't want to listen. Would that be called negative reinforcement?



As a psych major, I learned a lot about this terminology (in terms of people of course) so here goes: Reinforcement is anything that increases the likelihood of a behavior occuring. SO positive reinforcement is providing something that increases the likelihood of a behavior and negative rinforcement is taking something away that will increase the liklihood of the behavior. So guiding him with the leash is ACTUALLY positive reinforcement because you are providing a stimulus (pulling gently on the leash) that increases the liklihood of the behavior (sitting or laying). An example of negative reinforcement would be if you ignored him while hi was standing and he sits. A silly example but it proves the point that whether or not it is any type of reinforcement depends on his reaction. If you provided your dog with a treat for something but he never did that something again, whether he liked the treat or not, it is no type of reinforcement because he didn't do the behavior more.

Punishment is anything that DECREASES the likelihood of a behavior occuring. Negative punishment would be taking away attention for a puppy biting. By taking away attention, it decreased the liklihood of his biting again. Positive punishment would be prong collars, shake cans, timeout, scruffing anything where you provide a stimulus that decreases a behavior. But again this is only if it really DOES decrease the behavior not just if your INTENTION is to decrease the behavior.

Wow, sorry for the long winded response, and I hope it made sense. Just wanted to chime in since this, unlike dogs, is something I am very knolegable about. Hope it helped!


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## puppielove (Apr 1, 2011)

That makes sense to me though. But I'm not a trainer, nor do I claim to be one. The extent of my knowledge is from the dog whisperer. For over possessiveness at the food dish, couldn't you just take his food away until he behaved like a good lil pup? Sit nicely, I'm the pack leader.. you are not! I know the best solution can take added time, but it's well worth doing something that makes him fall in line out of respect rather than fear in my opinion. Just a thought..


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## mongrelmomma (Mar 18, 2011)

I was NOT seeking validation, please don't make such hasty accusations. I was looking for outside opinions from less biased sources. Validation wouldn't help me at all, I'm mature enough to know that. Come on now. There is no need to get defensive, I am in no way trying to discredit you and your training whether I agree with it or not.

Your sources are all rather biased; at least that's what I see when I skimmed through them. They all seem to be written by "positive" trainers like yourself. I could name numerous trainers that have been training for many years who support my methods, but it wouldn't do any good. Obviously, it's better that we agree to disagree. Sound good?

To lazygranch-As I've said before, it may work for some dogs and not for others. Never have I said anything mentioning Cesar Milan's "alpha leader" garbage (yes, you heard me, it's garbage IMO) or how you need to get very physical with ALL dogs, contrary to popular belief. That being said, I have "scruffed" all my dogs from the time they were pups and every single one has turned out to be nearly perfect model citizen dogs. It just shows that it CAN work but that one method may not work for all, which is what I've said from the very beginning. 

I've grown to be really disappointed with this thread. It went from a diplomatic argument (which I would be open to and even enjoy) to complete battle, ultimately isolating me and decrying my opinions and experiences.

In the end, although my advice's worth is probably nil on this forum, I recommend using what works for YOUR individual dog, whatever that may be. OP, I'm glad your dog is slowly getting better with his resource guarding. Keep up what you're doing. I hope for the best.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Negative reinforcement means that something is removed, it's negative as in substracting from the situation. The pressure is what disappears once the dog sits, and he is more likely to sit again because sitting removed the pressure, which is what he wants.

Positive reinforcements means something is added, which is you ask the dog to sit, he sits, and a treat or toy is added.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

For what it's worth, I didn't even know they made prong collars for dogs that tiny. I have a 7 lb dog and I won't even put a collar around her neck because I worry about the pressure on her trachea.


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## LeesaMarie85 (Mar 30, 2011)

I have a couple of additional questions after trying out some of the NILIF and trade up methods. First, what do I do when he obeys a command before I even give it? For example when I get out his food I have him come lay down and stay until I put it down and release him. As it is, I say come and he imediately comes and lays down? What happens if as soon as I get out the food, he comes and lays down, I no longer have an opportunity to give a command for him to earn the food.


Second, in terms of the trade up, he has no problem with "leave it" and never growls if I take it after saying "leave it" however, he will growl if I try to take it from his mouth or out from under his paws. How can I reinforce him for not growling if he always does? Also as for desensitizing him to touch, he NEVER growls if I touch him and there is not one of the few preferred toys in his posession. So, again, If he always growls when I touch him with the preferred object in his posession, how do I reward? Should I still start by rewarding him for not growling over other toys? Won't this make him spoiled or over weight? Rewarding him for the isolated times he does not growl when I touch him with a preferred object in his posession does not seem to be working.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

For the first one, it's not an issue. He is still being cued to lie down and wait, it's just not a verbal cue, the cue is you getting the food out. He is still earning his food by doing something for you. You could always ask for something different, but there is no reason to.

I'll let someone else answer the second one.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LeesaMarie85 said:


> Second, in terms of the trade up, he has no problem with "leave it" and never growls if I take it after saying "leave it" however, he will growl if I try to take it from his mouth or out from under his paws. How can I reinforce him for not growling if he always does? Also as for desensitizing him to touch, he NEVER growls if I touch him and there is not one of the few preferred toys in his posession. So, again, If he always growls when I touch him with the preferred object in his posession, how do I reward? Should I still start by rewarding him for not growling over other toys? Won't this make him spoiled or over weight? Rewarding him for the isolated times he does not growl when I touch him with a preferred object in his posession does not seem to be working.


You want to try to catch (or create) a voluntary drop, when he has something in his mouth you want, grab something as high or higher in value (remember it DOESN'T have to be food to be a reward) present it to him. The INSTANT he spits out or leaves the other item say 'drop it' or "Give" and give him the other item. Once he gets the picture you can start lowering the reward and/or fading the lure. It may take a while to get a reliable "drop' it but it will happen, for now don't try to take the object from his mouth, you can work on that later.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

The down for the food is becoming a conditioned response. You have the bowl (to him that is the cue, not necessarily the word itself) he lies down and you reward him with the bowl of food. Dogs often learn incrementally and often look to subtle body behaviour of yours to PREDICT what is going to happen next. This is why, in training a new behaviour you usually start with a physical signal or a lure to get the movement/behaviour you want. Once you are reliably getting the behaviour with the physical cue, you add the word and say it JUST BEFORE the physical cue..so dog eventually learns the word can be a cue and you can fade the physical movement. The learn the words AFTER they learn the behaviour and want you want, because dogs are not "verbal".

As for the growl when you touch him and he has an object: the plan with the training here is to get him to fully accept you being near him and requesting the item from him. Moving up to touching etc while he has something in 'hand' is going too fast. He's barely got the drop/trade thing...once he REALLY learns that you being there when he has an item PREDICTS a good outcome (a better treat or reward or even getting the item back) then and only then should you move up to touching the pup. Anything that makes him growl is a sign that he is not comfortable with it, a growl is communication for you to back off and keep working at the step just below his threshold. The way you will know he is making progress is when he is visibly RELAXED when you are there, then you work on increasing the difficulty, watching his body language carefully and taking a step back whenever necessary. THe EARLY body indications that he is uncomfortable come WELL before the growl occurs. This means, he slightly stiffens, his head will be over or near the object (if it's not already in his mouth), his muzzle will likely be pointing AT the object but his EYES will be watching you. You may see a bit of whale eye, where the whites of his eye is visible. These are all guarding/worry signs. 

Think about it this way: if you had something you valued (like a piece of candy) and everyday someone came up and just took it from you (or gave you something sucky) for the candy...every time you saw this person you would get tense, you would likely try to hide it or keep it away from the person and you may eventually either totally give up (and feel disempowered and stressed) or would start FIGHTING for it. If us humans, who have our big primate brains on our side, can feel these things about a treasured item...a dog is going to feel similarly and fight to protect it or give in and feel they can't trust you. It takes a LOT of time to get to the place where the dog understands that giving up an item to you is a good thing and that you are not a threat to his stuff. Keep up the good work and take your time.

Junebud, negative reinforcement is a bit of a tough thing to understand because THEORETICALLY in order to use negative reinforcement (the removal of something unpleasant, where the easing up/relief is the reinforcer) also means that something aversive had to be applied in the first place (like you tightening on the leash) which is technically a positive punishment (something applied to reduce the frequency of the behaviour), so it's abit of chicken and egg...lol.

So, in my opinion: he breaks his stay (unwanted behaviour) you apply leash pressure (which IF AVERSIVE or PUNISHING is P+, but if not aversive is likely not) to move him back into place and then relieve the leash pressure (negative reinforcement) to reinforce the sit again. tis confusin eh? lol


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

Cracker said:


> Junebud, negative reinforcement is a bit of a tough thing to understand because THEORETICALLY in order to use negative reinforcement (the removal of something unpleasant, where the easing up/relief is the reinforcer) also means that something aversive had to be applied in the first place (like you tightening on the leash) which is technically a positive punishment (something applied to reduce the frequency of the behaviour), so it's abit of chicken and egg...lol.
> 
> So, in my opinion: he breaks his stay (unwanted behaviour) you apply leash pressure (which IF AVERSIVE or PUNISHING is P+, but if not aversive is likely not) to move him back into place and then relieve the leash pressure (negative reinforcement) to reinforce the sit again. tis confusin eh? lol


Oh, my yes! Confusing to this old brain that has never studied this subject. Kodi and I are at the point now if he breaks his stay, he gets redirection without pressure. He is a quick study. I'm going to forgo trying to understand the terminology, I think.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JuneBud said:


> I'm going to forgo trying to understand the terminology, I think.


Me, too. I can learn it, but I never retain it for some reason. 

Maybe I need some more... uh... negative... or positive... punishment?


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