# Living with an intact male dog



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

So, I'd hope this goes without saying, but just in case, I'd prefer keeping the discussion here to dealing with intact male dogs and avoid steering it towards the debate about whether to neuter or not.

That being said - I'm planning on keeping Titan intact until he is at least two years old. I may decide to keep him intact for the duration of his life, but I have a while to figure that out. Since I've never lived with an intact male dog, I was wondering what people's experiences with it were? My main questions/concerns:

1. Titan is already beginning to display (at a little over 4 months old) some mounting and humping behaviors. Is this a normal age? Is it early? How do I (or can I) discourage him from humping? Right now I remove him from the object (usually Little Dog or the couch) and distract him with a toy. I especially need to discourage him from humping people, as he will easily knock someone down or harm them if he attempts to hump them when he's full grown.

2. Cleaning. What kind of messes should I expect, especially as he matures?

3. Marking. I'm worried that he will mark inside the house. Will solid potty training and continuous positive reinforcement for when he goes outside have an effect on this? Or is it dog-dependent? If he marks in my home at his full height, he'll be peeing a third of the way up the wall.

4. My next Dane (hopefully summer 2017) will also be a male and will be kept intact until he's at least 2 years of age, as well. Should I expect an elevated level of tension between two intact males, or is this 100% completely temperament- and dog-dependent? 

Any other experiences or information or advice for a first time owner of a fairly large intact dog?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Humping behavior is just frustrated/over-excited stuff when it's that young. Usually that's the case, even when dogs are older, unless there's a bitch in heat around. 

Honestly? Um. None beyond the normal dog related messes like muddy paw prints and hair and chewed up toys. I've noticed NOTHING from my intact dogs. 

It's just a housebreaking issue. It might happen, but if it does treat it like any other pee accident and he'll get the message and move on. 

This is totally dog dependent, and to some degree breed dependent. Some breeds have higher same sex dog aggression issues, some don't. Some individuals do, some don't. That said: Lots do. If it becomes an issue, though, neutering after the fact doesn't always help. Good news? You can neuter Titan before the other dog is sexually mature/has lost his puppy license and it probably won't matter at all.

(Thud is still intact at 3. Jack was intact until he was 8.)


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Thank you so much, that has already helped alleviate so many of my concerns, CptJack. I was mostly worried about him humping when he was so young and wondering if it was going to turn into a lifelong habit. Glad that it's just over excitement  

About the timing of new puppy/Titan's neuter, that's what I was worried about, that neutering after an incident happens won't help. I'm not strong enough to separate two 170-180 lb fighting dogs, so I may have to neuter Titan proactively instead of retroactively. Or I could just get a female... But I really want my black, male GD.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If you're getting a new pup even very early in 2017 that would give you at LEAST until 18 months with Titan, probably a bit longer? Maybe aim to neuter him when the new pup is somewhere around 6 months old? Should work out all right, that way, though I know that's a bit younger than ideal.

And yeah. Puppies get excited and hump. It's annoying and kind of weird, but it's a thing. I wouldn't sweat it, just redirect him.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

1. Yes, mounting and humping is normal. I would say it's normal for many speutered dogs of both genders, really. I did find that it picked up a bit around 5 months and went away with redirection. Watson will still try to hump pillows occasionally if he's really overstimulated (basically the same times he wants to jump around and bite me). He really hasn't done it at all in maybe 8 months until this week since Hazel is in standing heat.

2. I haven't noticed any mess specific to an intact male. 

3. Some mark, but that's also an any dog thing. Watson has never marked in my house, though he did mark in a friend's house one time. I suspect her dogs had previous peed in that spot though. But again, lots of dogs mark. My friends have two neutered dogs (pediatric neuter) who marked in their house. It's a potty training issue really, though I find it can be separate from your initial potty training. Like, the puppy can learn to never pee indoors, but at a certain age he may decide that it's ok to mark in a pet store or something, so you have to take a step back and retrain a bit. They seem to consider marking to be a different thing from regular peeing.

4. It's really dependent. Some breeds are known for male-male aggression, but many are fine. Certain males are weird while others are fine. I would ask Dane breeders. Fighting or snarking while a female in the house is in heat is fairly common for most breeds.

It really hasn't been a big deal to keep Watson intact. The vast majority of the time I don't even really remember that he's intact because he acts like every other dog. He does dislike most intact males, but then neutered males can also dislike intact males so I don't know if that would be any different. Some people say that neutering increases focus and decreases random sniffiness, but when I ask spaniel people specifically they say that they didn't notice a difference after neuter and it's purely a training and age related thing.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

@CptJack, the puppy will be mid-2017 at the earliest, and since I'm holding out for a show-colored Dane who suits me personality-wise and I am not a show home, it may be into 2018 before I can get the puppy I want. Gives me plenty of time with Titan intact to make sure he is able to grow in a healthy way  

@elrohwen, thanks! Titan mounting some things over the weekend made me think "omg, I'm going to have a GD who mounts and pees rivers on my walls!" So glad to hear it's all mostly training dependent. 

I'll ask my breeder about whether she's seen any aggression between intact males, but I'm not sure she's ever owned two intact males at the same time. As I prefer male dogs, she prefers females, so 4 out of her 5 dogs are female. They don't have any female/female aggression, not sure if that means male/male aggression is less likely. 

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I'll remember that Titan is intact, because when he stands with his rear end towards me on the couch and then tries to sit on my face, it will be hard to forget


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I have 5 intact males in my house right now, although two of them are 4 month old puppies. 

The only male on male aggression I have had was between Hatter and Smoochie and Smooch has gone home now. The two male bulldogs are fine with each other, I do not let them out together strictly because Kohl is annoying, wants to play all the time and will not let JC just chill like he wants to. Hatter gets along with the other males. Male on male really depends on the dogs, much as bitch on bitch does, but I have found bitch on bitch can be a whole lot worse than male on male.

As for humping, pretty much the same thing as every one else said, in fact my girls actually hump more than my boys. 

I really have no messes with them, JC used to mark in some of the furniture, but he just kinda stopped doing that. Hatter does mark outside from time to time.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Hiraeth said:


> So, I'd hope this goes without saying, but just in case, I'd prefer keeping the discussion here to dealing with intact male dogs and avoid steering it towards the debate about whether to neuter or not.
> 
> That being said - I'm planning on keeping Titan intact until he is at least two years old. I may decide to keep him intact for the duration of his life, but I have a while to figure that out. Since I've never lived with an intact male dog, I was wondering what people's experiences with it were? My main questions/concerns:
> 
> ...



1) That humping is normal.... Puppy excitement, frustration stuff.... Not sexually related at all.

2) No extra mess with an intact dog....

3) Marking should not be a problem if the housetraining is solid... Only male I had that would occasionally mark is a Lab that was a pediatric neuter. 

4) Dog on dog aggression. Again the real issues I have had have all been with neutered males starting crap with intact dogs. It can vary by breed and by dog.... I have always had intact dogs except for three. I have had a few minor squabbles that were mostly noise over the years. And have had dogs that will "talk" to each other. But that is just communication.. I will say I never leave my dogs together when I am not at home. They can be best buds.... But all it takes is one dispute and boom you have a fight. The caveat to that is when I had hunting dogs. I housed my hounds communally. Never had an issue. I even fed them in a trough.... I could not do this with the cur dogs... They were okay loose together but I would not chance housing them together. For some reason males have the greater reputation of being aggressive with each other. But my experience is the opposite. I have found bitch on bitch aggression to be FAR worse..... And even when males have a spat, it is most often minor and they get over it..... Once bitches get into it, they seem to never forget. And bitches are far more violent.

There is a saying.... Dogs may fight for breeding rights... But bitches will fight for breathing rights.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 1) That humping is normal.... Puppy excitement, frustration stuff.... Not sexually related at all.
> 
> 2) No extra mess with an intact dog....
> 
> ...


Yep bitches never forget. It is usually the one that did not start it that can not let it go.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> I'll ask my breeder about whether she's seen any aggression between intact males, but I'm not sure she's ever owned two intact males at the same time. As I prefer male dogs, she prefers females, so 4 out of her 5 dogs are female. They don't have any female/female aggression, not sure if that means male/male aggression is less likely.


I don't think you can tell anything by that. Dobes are known for male-male aggression, but I know people who house females together all the time without issue. And other breeds can be flipped where it's the female-female aggression that is common but male-male is not. Maybe she can point you towards some people who do own multiple males so you can ask them?


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 1) That humping is normal.... Puppy excitement, frustration stuff.... Not sexually related at all.
> 
> 2) No extra mess with an intact dog....
> 
> ...


This is pretty much my same experience. Both of my rottweilers are intact males - one is 4 and the other is almost 8. They have not peed in the house since they were about 
5 months old. Neither dogs hump anything (ironically...my rescued rottweiler who was neutered humped things.) If they have a scuffle....it's noise and some minor scrapes and bruising. They do get over it. We do manage resources because it seems toys are the objects that will cause a fight, but that's easy. They do have access to one another when we are home, but will crate/gate them away from each other when we aren't. 

Honestly, I haven't found them to be any more challenging than the neutered rescue I had when I was starting out in Rottweilers. I don't see myself neutering dogs I own unless medically necessary after living with them intact. I do not have females in the house. I know that would change the dynamic they have and things might be more challenging if there were. All in all....the intact males I've had thus far have been more than manageable and fine pets.


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## Annageckos (Mar 21, 2015)

My neutered male humps when he gets over excited, or there is too much going on for him. My intact male has only ever tried to hump my spayed female GSD, normally on her leg. I assume because of the size difference, he's a Basset hound. So humping is more of an issue with my neutered boy.
Shorty does mark sometime inside, but I've found that it's mostly when we get a bit lax with walking and activities. One good walk a day and he's good to go.
Shorty's best friend is my mom's intact male Scottie. They have never fought, no tension. They love to play and wrestle, even with an intact female Scottie around. I know this will vary from dog to dog, but that is my experience.
I'd personally leave him intact and only neuter if I felt it was warranted. When I was young we had an intact male Great Dane, I don't remember any problems with him. He was so sweet and mellow.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Somehow I blocked this from my memory already, but as far as mess goes:

This weekend Hazel was crated (because she's in heat) and Watson was loose. We were in the basement getting some supplies to work on the bathroom when I realized I hadn't seen him in a while. I go upstairs and he's waiting for me, and I notice his belly feathers are wet with pee. He obviously peed somewhere in the house. We searched around and found that he had peed all over the guest bed. From the evidence, it looks like he was humping the pillows and got to a point where he couldn't hold it anymore and peed all over everything and himself. I don't think it was quite "marking", and I hadn't taken him out for a couple hours. I don't think he could help it.

Don't have a girl in heat though and you'll be fine ;-)


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

My mini poodle was intact till he was 2 and he was actually better behaved when he was intact than he was after he was neutered. He has never been a dog to mark in the house or other buildings, he has never been a humper.
After his neutered he became a bit more timid/'angry'. He's still a well behaved dog but he isn't quite as chill as he was before.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Somehow I blocked this from my memory already, but as far as mess goes:
> 
> This weekend Hazel was crated (because she's in heat) and Watson was loose. We were in the basement getting some supplies to work on the bathroom when I realized I hadn't seen him in a while. I go upstairs and he's waiting for me, and I notice his belly feathers are wet with pee. He obviously peed somewhere in the house. We searched around and found that he had peed all over the guest bed. From the evidence, it looks like he was humping the pillows and got to a point where he couldn't hold it anymore and peed all over everything and himself. I don't think it was quite "marking", and I hadn't taken him out for a couple hours. I don't think he could help it.
> 
> Don't have a girl in heat though and you'll be fine ;-)


I read about that and let out an audible "oh no" in sympathy for you. It was one of the things that made me wonder what differences I'll be facing in keeping an intact versus a neutered male. The other one was a post elsewhere that someone's dog was ejaculating on random things in their house. I was like "uh.... I hope that isn't a common thing". Like, I can take a little bit of grossness. I've cleaned horse sheaths. But I was worried that was something I'd be dealing with on a semi-constant basis.

@Everyone - Thanks for your replies. I feel SO much more confident in my decision to keep him intact (probably for the rest of his life) and I'm hoping that even if I have another intact male, it won't be an issue. I naturally remove resources when I sense trouble brewing and give my dogs plenty of space when they're eating because my rescues were such horrendous resource guarders, so I'm hoping that will help remove most fighting triggers. 

Titan honestly doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body (that I've seen yet). He tries to share with other dogs, and he and Atlas were chewing on opposite ends of the same 12" bully stick this morning because I stopped paying attention for two seconds and didn't realize Titan had wandered away with it (which I viewed as a HUGE accomplishment for Atlas, because he was the worst RGer of the bunch). I'm hoping his friendly exuberance holds throughout adolescence and the addition of another puppy to the household  

Whew. Huge relief that it will probably be okay!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> We do manage resources because it seems toys are the objects that will cause a fight, but that's easy.
> .


This can be a big thing.... Right now... I have 8 years and 8 month old males.... 

And frankly the old dog helps me keep the young dog in check....

But toys can be a hot spot..... Merlin does not like toys... But put ten toys on the ground with Merlin and the other dogs.... Very Casually he with go pick up and take the toys from the other dogs.... Somewhere around 12-24 months... Pyro will challenge that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I noticed nothing with Lincoln, other than his tendency to uh "get excited" when he got excited (LOL), and the occasional chattering over pee, and marking outside, I didnt see any difference with him being intact and could have easily lived with him intact, but I was under contract to neuter him by 18 months, so I did at 14 months, when we determined that his growth plates were closed.

Now that he is neutered, I do see a few small differences, ones only the owner would notice, like he is more focused on me and less easily distracted by other dogs, and less easily distracted in general. Though that could also be attributed to maturity, though it did happen almost right after he was fixed.

In short, every dog is different and my experience might not be yours, so you will have to wait and see LOL.

ETA the bad humper is our pedantically spayed female LOL, she tries to hump OH when she gets excited and she will hump other dogs, too and humps Lincoln when they play, OTOH, Lincoln never humped anyone, even when he was intact. The most he did is he marked a few times when he was at training because there were two intact females there, though they were on either side of us in the practice area, he focused nicely and called off the fence easily when it was time for work.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Yeah...the last good fight we had between the dogs was over a toy and MrBoats. That was probably about 6 months ago. Lars and he were playing tug in the living room and Ocean swooped in and decided to take a couple of sucker punches at Lars. That was the first time I really saw Lars fight back and he got a pretty good beat down on Ocean (which Ocean wasn't expecting.) We had to pry them off of each other by their back feet. There wasn't any broken skin, but, both boys were actually sore from that one. My vet BFF thought they bruised each other up and good....not too much unlike a bar fight. We kept a close eye on Ocean for a couple of days after that to make sure he didn't try to even the score after getting his butt handed to him by the old man.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I think trigger/resource management is a huge factor. I guess it doesn't occur to me that other people *don't* manage resources, because I have to constantly. Loki and Atlas would fight over toys, Atlas only wants things that other dogs have, Little Dog is food guard-y (aggressive is a bit strong, but he'd bite if pushed hard) and Shenzi bit Titan and left a large puncture wound in his face right after I got him home when he got too close to her treat. Titan likes to "share" with everyone and often disregards the other dog's warnings that he's too close.

So, in that regard, living with two intact males wouldn't be difficult for me, I'd just manage resources and probably not leave them alone unsupervised. I was more worried about unpredictable, seemingly trigger-less fights. Resource fights are 99% of the time predictable and preventable, in my opinion.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> I think trigger/resource management is a huge factor. I guess it doesn't occur to me that other people *don't* manage resources, because I have to constantly. Loki and Atlas would fight over toys, Atlas only wants things that other dogs have, Little Dog is food guard-y (aggressive is a bit strong, but he'd bite if pushed hard) and Shenzi bit Titan and left a large puncture wound in his face right after I got him home when he got too close to her treat. Titan likes to "share" with everyone and often disregards the other dog's warnings that he's too close.
> 
> So, in that regard, living with two intact males wouldn't be difficult for me, I'd just manage resources and probably not leave them alone unsupervised. I was more worried about unpredictable, seemingly trigger-less fights. Resource fights are 99% of the time predictable and preventable, in my opinion.


Fights are never triggerless, there is always something that starts it. With Josefina, fights start because she is socially inept and inappropriate, but hates to be corrected, and takes it personally. Dogs she gets along with are usually also laid back, and dont mind her eccentric nature.

Lincoln is very socially adjusted and also takes correction well.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Fights are never triggerless, there is always something that starts it. With Josefina, fights start because she is socially inept and inappropriate, but hates to be corrected, and takes it personally. Dogs she gets along with are usually also laid back, and dont mind her eccentric nature.
> 
> Lincoln is very socially adjusted and also takes correction well.


Yes, this is why I said "seemingly trigger-less". There is always a trigger, but sometimes it's more difficult to remove than others. Toys are a removable trigger. Treats are a removable trigger. 

Squirrels running around in my yard, on the other hand, are not an easily removable trigger. Someone walking by the house with another dog is not an easily removable trigger. The type of conflicts I was worried about was when the two dogs get amped up to such a level that they are more prone to attack each other because they can't go after the thing they actually want to chase. Which I was concerned may be more of a thing between two intact males. But it sounds like supervision and training are going to be the keys to success (as they almost always are).


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

I have a 5-year-old intact Mastiff so here is my experience:



Hiraeth said:


> So, I'd hope this goes without saying, but just in case, I'd prefer keeping the discussion here to dealing with intact male dogs and avoid steering it towards the debate about whether to neuter or not.
> 
> That being said - I'm planning on keeping Titan intact until he is at least two years old. I may decide to keep him intact for the duration of his life, but I have a while to figure that out. Since I've never lived with an intact male dog, I was wondering what people's experiences with it were? My main questions/concerns:
> 
> ...


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have two Shih Tzu x Maltese males that are not neutered. Remmy is 8 and Monty is 10. I have never left them alone if I go out, Remmy is crated, even though they get along great. I do Agility with Remmy and he is fine with other dogs. Neither of them mark. I actually have never owned a neutered male and I have had a lot of dogs. I find the females I have had of quite a few different breeds do not usually fight. I have heard that male Dobermans are usually quite aggressive with other males but have not heard that about the females.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Loki is intact and he just turned 7 today. We've never had any issues. The only 'messes' we have ever had per se is sometimes when he's dreaming in his sleep, he uhm, ends up with a "happy ending"..? I have no idea how else to put that


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Loki Love said:


> Loki is intact and he just turned 7 today. We've never had any issues. The only 'messes' we have ever had per se is sometimes when he's dreaming in his sleep, he uhm, ends up with a "happy ending"..? I have no idea how else to put that


Haha, that is indeed the kind of mess I was wondering about. Especially because Titan sleeps in my bed. And has a tendency to sleep with the largest percentage of his body touching mine as possible. 

It's like sharing the bed with a very clingy SO. Who snores. And drools. And kicks while dreaming. And passes gas which blows straight into my face because I have a fan pointed at me due to the fact that I get too hot with a 65 lb fuzzy thing breathing into my neck. 

When I try to relocate him so I can sleep comfortably, he whines and scooches back towards me, like the most pathetic giant puppy you've ever seen. So I don't bother. I realized that I put up my white flag the minute I took him out of his crate and placed him in my bed the very first night I had him.

I'll just have to cross my fingers I don't end up with the results of a wet dream on my sheets or clothes, I suppose. Man. That's the weirdest thing I've said today.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Yes, this is why I said "seemingly trigger-less". There is always a trigger, but sometimes it's more difficult to remove than others. Toys are a removable trigger. Treats are a removable trigger.
> 
> Squirrels running around in my yard, on the other hand, are not an easily removable trigger. Someone walking by the house with another dog is not an easily removable trigger. The type of conflicts I was worried about was when the two dogs get amped up to such a level that they are more prone to attack each other because they can't go after the thing they actually want to chase. Which I was concerned may be more of a thing between two intact males. But it sounds like supervision and training are going to be the keys to success (as they almost always are).


All that stuff isn't an intact male thing, intact males aren't special, they are dogs just like any other dog, only they have testicles, nothing more ... haha. May I ask, why do you want to keep him intact? Because beyond about 2 years, the hormones don't really have a benefit for them.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> All that stuff isn't an intact male thing, intact males aren't special, they are dogs just like any other dog, only they have testicles, nothing more ... haha. May I ask, why do you want to keep him intact? Because beyond about 2 years, the hormones don't really have a benefit for them.


The OP has Danes... Not even remotely likely the growth plates are closed as two years...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The OP has Danes... Not even remotely likely the growth plates are closed as two years...


Or whenever they close, I was just referencing most breeds, whose plates close at 2. Regardless, IMO, and there is research to back this as well, dogs don't need their hormones after they are done growing.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

Actually there _can_ be physical, appearance, and behavioral changes in some dogs after castration. Testosterone does have its benefits, just as it does with humans. It's not simply a matter of sex. I do have castrated males, and one that is currently intact (he's almost 3) but who will at some point likely be chemically sterilized so he keeps some of those hormones. I am not against castration, but I also don't think that's it without at least some effect to the dog. Thankfully, there are a variety of ways to sterilize these days, and owners have many options do decide which one is best for them, castration included 

Edited to add that I forgot to answer the questions:

As others have said, at 4 months, humping is not sexual

I've never had any messes. That includes any....after sleep....incidents

He marks things outside, not indoors. But, my neutered dogs mark outside too, I've never given it much thought. They're all trained to leave it, so that if we're on a walk, no one is peeing every 5 feet

I don't have any other intact males in the house, but he's fine with those he's met elsewhere. 

Our only issue is that we don't go to dog parks. Neutered males like to be humpy and/or body slam and it's annoying to both of us, particularly when their owners do nothing


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Our only issue with Mike was that he spread these little green drops all over the house... Disgusting really. After neutering never happened again.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> All that stuff isn't an intact male thing, intact males aren't special, they are dogs just like any other dog, only they have testicles, nothing more ... haha. May I ask, why do you want to keep him intact? Because beyond about 2 years, the hormones don't really have a benefit for them.


Some new research is showing that neutering at ANY age increases the chances of osteosarcoma. While pediatric neutering increases the likelihood of osteo greatly, neutered dogs in general have a higher instance of osteo. It is theorized that this link *may* be because neutered dogs tend to live slightly longer. Neutered Danes, however, don't live any longer than intact Danes, on average, and the cases of osteo are much higher in the neutered Dane population (shown by preliminary studies). 

Based on that evidence, I'd personally rather not neuter at all. I'd rather screen for semi-serious problems more likely to occur in intact males (testicular cancer, prostate issues) and avoid the 99.99% of the time terminal osteo diagnosis. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> The OP has Danes... Not even remotely likely the growth plates are closed as two years...


Nope, it's closer to 2.5-3 years for most males, especially slow maturing ones like Titan's lines. Titan's grandfather grew an inch between the age of 2-2.5. 

Most people on the breed specific forum recommend neutering at 18 months at the earliest for females, but 24 months at the earliest for males.



Avie said:


> Our only issue with Mike was that he spread these little green drops all over the house... Disgusting really. After neutering never happened again.


Titan gets these on his legs sometimes, but I imagine I'll start finding them elsewhere


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Titan gets these on his legs sometimes, but I imagine I'll start finding them elsewhere


I'd honestly rather deal with drops of blood from bitches in heat than the green drops. At least heats are only twice a year. 

And I never knew Danes grew so slowly! And so long!


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Avie said:


> I'd honestly rather deal with drops of blood from bitches in heat than the green drops. At least heats are only twice a year.
> 
> And I never knew Danes grew so slowly! And so long!


It depends a bit on the line, but most males gain at least half an inch between 18-24 months, and that's when they really pack on the muscle. They're tall and narrow until 18 months or so, generally. 

Females are done a bit earlier. I think they have their first heats later than other breeds, too? Most first heats I hear about in Dane females are around 12 months. And I think other breeds start sooner than that?

I don't think it's just Danes. Other giant breeds grow well after 18 months, as far as I know, especially the super tall ones like Irish Wolfhounds.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Or whenever they close, I was just referencing most breeds, whose plates close at 2. Regardless, IMO, and there is research to back this as well, dogs don't need their hormones after they are done growing.


I keep my two intact because they are performance dogs and more or less athletes. I need them to have good muscling to be able to do agility or the higher levels of obedience and not break down. Testosterone definitely does support and maintain a strong musculoskeletal system for dogs. I've seen plenty of neutered rotties who have a soft, dough-boy look about them. Ocean is ripped like a bodybuilder but his body can withstand the abuse that agility can dish out. He also has the strength to jump correctly and get his 90 pound body off the ground using his rear instead of his front end. I have zero issue getting both of my boys to focus only on me when I need them to. I believe focus issues people seem to have with intact males is more of a training issue than a hormone one. If the floor is more exciting to your dog than you are...then that is on you as a handler/trainer/owner.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Some new research is showing that neutering at ANY age increases the chances of osteosarcoma. While pediatric neutering increases the likelihood of osteo greatly, neutered dogs in general have a higher instance of osteo. It is theorized that this link *may* be because neutered dogs tend to live slightly longer. Neutered Danes, however, don't live any longer than intact Danes, on average, and the cases of osteo are much higher in the neutered Dane population (shown by preliminary studies).
> 
> Based on that evidence, I'd personally rather not neuter at all. I'd rather screen for semi-serious problems more likely to occur in intact males (testicular cancer, prostate issues) and avoid the 99.99% of the time terminal osteo diagnosis.
> 
> ...


Maybe its different in giant breeds, but in most breeds, if you wait too long after the growth plates close (like after 24 months) the risk of bone cancer increases, but if done before 24 months (excluding giant breeds of course because it might be different with them). But with the testicles, also come their risks, like reproductive cancers, so its kind of a trade off. 

Also, I personally wouldnt buy from a breeder who didnt have a s/n contract, though if I wanted to, I might ask them if we could explore other means of sterilization like vasectomy, if I wanted to, but I dont want the hormones, to me they cause more harm than good LOL.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Also, I personally wouldnt buy from a breeder who didnt have a s/n contract, though if I wanted to, I might ask them if we could explore other means of sterilization like vasectomy, if I wanted to, but I dont want the hormones, to me they cause more harm than good LOL.


If they didn't have a s/n contract that would mean you could just do whatever you wanted, including s/n whenever you felt it was appropriate.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> If they didn't have a s/n contract that would mean you could just do whatever you wanted, including s/n whenever you felt it was appropriate.


Around here, most of the breeders who dont have contracts arent ones I would want to do business with, anyway. So I guess it depends on the area.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Maybe its different in giant breeds, but in most breeds, if you wait too long after the growth plates close (like after 24 months) the risk of bone cancer increases, but if done before 24 months (excluding giant breeds of course because it might be different with them). But with the testicles, also come their risks, like reproductive cancers, so its kind of a trade off.


Not sure where you're getting this information. I've never read anything like it. And I've spent quite a while researching this topic, from all angles.

In fact, I can point you towards four studies that indicate exactly the opposite of what you have stated here. As well as two giant breed veterinary specialists, two canine oncologists and an entire community of people who own Great Danes.

Like I said earlier, I'd rather screen for testicular cancer and prostate issues than deal with osteosarcoma, which is terminal 99.99% of the time.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

it really does depend on the individual male... I've had more full life intact males in a goup that were just very confident balanced individuals not to have any issues with them as you question , then there are the weaker individuals who would have more of a tendency to want to mark and push on other males, not because they were intact but because they were lessor confident individuals needing to focus on petty things, overly prove themselves.

My group of females were well taken care of and taught by the adult females in the group how to keep themselves clean and their area's clean, It was never an issue of them being heat except for having intact males...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Not sure where you're getting this information. I've never read anything like it. And I've spent quite a while researching this topic, from all angles.
> 
> In fact, I can point you towards four studies that indicate exactly the opposite of what you have stated here. As well as two giant breed veterinary specialists, two canine oncologists and an entire community of people who own Great Danes.
> 
> Like I said earlier, I'd rather screen for testicular cancer and prostate issues than deal with osteosarcoma, which is terminal 99.99% of the time.


Maybe in giant breeds, but I will likely never have a giant breed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Or whenever they close, I was just referencing most breeds, whose plates close at 2. Regardless, IMO, and there is research to back this as well, dogs don't need their hormones after they are done growing.


Yes they do..... Dogs lose their hormones, they lose muscle tone, bone density, etc....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Maybe its different in giant breeds, but in most breeds, if you wait too long after the growth plates close (like after 24 months) the risk of bone cancer increases,.



Actually you are dead wrong here.... You could not be more wrong if you tried...

The earlier you speuter, the GREATER the chance of bone cancer...... The UC Davis and the Perdue study showed this in a very clear fashion...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Or whenever they close, I was just referencing most breeds, whose plates close at 2. Regardless, IMO, and there is research to back this as well, dogs don't need their hormones after they are done growing.


Even medium breeds it does not often happen at two years....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Haven't read the thread. Have not noticed a difference in neutered vs intact males overall. Mostly depends on the individual dog. Bernard is still intact and probably the mildest dog I've ever lived with (don't live with him now but you know...). Hank is neutered and does a lot more 'gross boy stuff'.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I should also point out Nard is now almost 8 (what the heck!?). Beau was neutered at 4-5? ish. Trey was also a few years old when neutered. So Hank is the youngest neuter and the most confrontational/combative personality, the most hormonal acting as far as humping goes, etc. I really chalk that up to breed mostly.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I keep my two intact because they are performance dogs and more or less athletes. I need them to have good muscling to be able to do agility or the higher levels of obedience and not break down. Testosterone definitely does support and maintain a strong musculoskeletal system for dogs. I've seen plenty of neutered rotties who have a soft, dough-boy look about them. Ocean is ripped like a bodybuilder but his body can withstand the abuse that agility can dish out. He also has the strength to jump correctly and get his 90 pound body off the ground using his rear instead of his front end. I have zero issue getting both of my boys to focus only on me when I need them to. I believe focus issues people seem to have with intact males is more of a training issue than a hormone one. If the floor is more exciting to your dog than you are...then that is on you as a handler/trainer/owner.


Well, regardless, since he has been neutered, I have noticed a difference since Lincoln was neutered, of course it could be maturity ... but he is much less easily distracted by outside stimuli in general.

Say what you want, and yes he did have some issues with focusing, I mean geeze he has two intact (one in heat!!!) Females on either side of him in class in the warm up rings, and yes, he did get distracted and marked a couple of times, BUT ... I was able to get him to refocus and he stopped. 

But behavior wasn't the reason I fixed him, I did because I was under contract to do so.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Well, regardless, since he has been neutered, I have noticed a difference since Lincoln was neutered, of course it could be maturity ... but he is much less easily distracted by outside stimuli in general.
> 
> Say what you want, and yes he did have some issues with focusing, I mean geeze he has two intact (one in heat!!!) Females on either side of him in class in the warm up rings, and yes, he did get distracted and marked a couple of times, BUT ... I was able to get him to refocus and he stopped.
> 
> But behavior wasn't the reason I fixed him, I did because I was under contract to do so.


But your dog has not been neutered ANYWHERE near long enough for the drop in testosterone to be the cause...

Maturity, change in routine, etc has also happened. You just decided on your own that the neutering did it... But I would venture your dog's testosterone levels have not dropped 10 percent at this time.... Plus the adrenal glad which also makes testosterone, will try to compensate when the testicles stop producing....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> But your dog has not been neutered ANYWHERE near long enough for the drop in testosterone to be the cause...
> 
> Maturity, change in routine, etc has also happened. You just decided on your own that the neutering did it... But I would venture your dog's testosterone levels have not dropped 10 percent at this time.... Plus the adrenal glad which also makes testosterone, will try to compensate when the testicles stop producing....


I should be clear that the marking behavior and distraction was when he still has his nads, sorry I didn't make thet clearer.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I should be clear that the marking behavior and distraction was when he still has his nads, sorry I didn't make thet clearer.


I understood that... Marking and distraction seldom has anything to do with nads... and your boy has not been missing his long enough to cause a change..


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Shep was neutered at 6 mos. He stopped trying to hump people etc. around 8 mos, possibly due to training. He continued to try to hump dogs, but was Never aggressive about it. He started lifting his leg and marking at 3yo. He successfully (?) tied with a female in heat at 8yo [We got a surprising lesson about the birds and the bees] .... and he's still interested at 15yo (!!!). He's only just now losing muscle tone ... from arthritis etc., and lack of exercise. Can't speak to bone density. No longer can lift his leg, but squats to pee and squats to mark. [Difference is amount of pee, and attempt to aim.] With training, distraction hasn't been an issue. Aggression has never been an issue. 

Previous dog was intact and lived to 17yo. Never humped. Was not dog friendly [poor socialization], but not overly aggressive. Distraction wasn't an issue ... not that interested. Other dogs didn't seem interested in him, either. Started to lose muscle tone around 12yo, due to arthritis.

Note: I thought the cancer studies were generalized from samples of Rotts, and from Goldens?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

hanksimon said:


> Note: I thought the cancer studies were generalized from samples of Rotts, and from Goldens?


Two of them are. There's a third older all-breed survey that isn't talked about as much. The reason that the Rott and Golden surveys were done was because of this all-breed study - in both cases, researchers wanted to narrow their survey information down to one breed who has a high propensity for osteosarcoma as well as other cancers and hip dysplasia in order to study as similar a group of dogs as possible.

The Rott/Golden studies corroborated the evidence presented by the all-breed survey, which was that age of altering directly positively influenced the dog's likelihood of multiple cancers and other skeletal disorders.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Hiraeth said:


> hanksimon said:
> 
> 
> > Note: I thought the cancer studies were generalized from samples of Rotts, and from Goldens?
> ...


Do you mind linking/listing those? I think I may start a file.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Two of them are. There's a third older all-breed survey that isn't talked about as much. The reason that the Rott and Golden surveys were done was because of this all-breed study - in both cases, researchers wanted to narrow their survey information down to one breed who has a high propensity for osteosarcoma as well as other cancers and hip dysplasia in order to study as similar a group of dogs as possible.
> 
> The Rott/Golden studies corroborated the evidence presented by the all-breed survey, which was that age of altering directly positively influenced the dog's likelihood of multiple cancers and other skeletal disorders.


Thats what I mean, that most of the studies are done with breeds that already are more prone to bone and other cancers (like giant breeds) or breeds who have cancer rampant in their lines (labs/goldens/rotties/dobes).

I am not saying you should, or shouldnt neuter your dog, that is your decision, I am just saying that implying that it raises the risk of cancer in ALL breeds is not accurate.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think what Hiraeth wrote was that there was a generalized, foundation study across ALL breeds; then corroborate the research with individual breeds with known tendency for cancer [independent of the reason]. The intersection of the 'populations' from the 'two' studies [general and one breed] might indicate one factor in the tendency for cancer [and possibly further studies to help reduce the tendency].

Because I wasn't aware of the general study, [and I think most folks aren't aware of it either], I balked at folks blaming early neutering for cancer, based on the Rott studies ... since Rott are prone to cancer. Guess I won't balk up that tree anymore. 

I also agree - "you should, or shouldn't neuter your dog, that is your decision," and my Vet said that neutering a male at 2yo was fine. But, I will probably continue to fix at 6 mos, b/c that seems most convenient ... for me. However, when I adopt my next pup, I probably won't get the option, and the pup will be fixed at 8 weeks, before I get him. I would prefer to have my own Vet do the procedure and do it at 6 mos.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Both vets I work with both here and at home also said that 2 years or around that is an acceptable age to neuter.

And FWIW, I was under contract, so I had no choice. Besides I wasn't going to use his nads, so what keep them?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Both vets I work with both here and at home also said that 2 years or around that is an acceptable age to neuter.
> 
> And FWIW, I was under contract, so I had no choice. Besides I wasn't going to use his nads, so what keep them?


I understand you were under contract. But it would have been better for him if were able to wait... 

Not much you could do... But next time you might try to negotiate a later neuter date....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Thats what I mean, that most of the studies are done with breeds that already are more prone to bone and other cancers (like giant breeds) or breeds who have cancer rampant in their lines (labs/goldens/rotties/dobes).
> 
> .


There are broader studies...


And what you are missing is the disparity between intact and neutered dogs in the breed specific studies...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Well, given I will be having what could be considered a "large" breed next time (standard poodle) I believe I will request from the breeder if I can wait until two years or later. The agreement on Lincoln was when his growth plates were closed, and they were. 

I have had intact and neutered males of all ages, from 6 months (shelter neuter) to 7 years (bear, the old man) 5-6 years (buddy the ACD from rescue, we are estimating when he was neutered since they did it when they pulled him from the shelter, and he was in his foster home for a couple of years after he was pulled) to Lincoln at 14 months.

Bear (neutered at 7 years when I retired him from showing) is now almost 16 years old and is every bit as healthy as he was when he was intact.

Buddy (neutered about 5-6 years estimated) is also healthy and sound

Lincoln (neutered at 14 mos) I am not sure, but I will monitor his progress as time goes by. But judging on my other dogs, I doubt there will be any changes in him. Loss of muscle tone is due to lack of exercise, not because they dont have their nads anymore. And I believe that if you arent going to USE their nad's why have them? To me its just silly.

Also nads pose issues not related to health, intact males arent allowed at some dog parks, daycares, boarding kennels, etc. And if they are, being intact poses a risk because a lot of neutered males will target intact ones, and vice versa, so to me its not worth it.

It's also worth mentioning that leaving the reproductive organs also comes with its own risks: prostate, and testicular cancer in males, pyometra, ovarian, uterine, mammary cancer as well as mastitis from false pregnancies in females. So leaving an animal intact is not without risk, either and preaching like it is is not right, either. 

Not trying to prove anything, or force spay/neuter on anyone, but I was just sharing my personal experience with neutering (and spaying) and wanted to clarify that no one should be made to feel bad about leaving their dog intact, OR fixing them.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Loss of muscle tone is due to lack of exercise, not because they dont have their nads anymore.


Testosterone absolutely helps build and maintain muscle development. It's not all exercise and feeding. The amount of exercise it took an intact male to stay in muscled condition is going to be much different from the amount of exercise it takes an intact dog.

Watson has not had much exercise in a while - Hazel took up my time, then he was injured, we were in classes every night, it's dark now, etc. His exercise has dropped way off. But he is still all muscle. Most people who pet him or feel him, including his vet, have commented. I'm not going to kid myself and say that walking him a few times a week and going to training classes is keeping him in this condition. And I have never met a neutered male who wasn't a bit squishy even if he was lean.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Testosterone absolutely helps build and maintain muscle development. It's not all exercise and feeding. The amount of exercise it took an intact male to stay in muscled condition is going to be much different from the amount of exercise it takes an intact dog.
> 
> Watson has not had much exercise in a while - Hazel took up my time, then he was injured, we were in classes every night, it's dark now, etc. His exercise has dropped way off. But he is still all muscle. Most people who pet him or feel him, including his vet, have commented. I'm not going to kid myself and say that walking him a few times a week and going to training classes is keeping him in this condition. And I have never met a neutered male who wasn't a bit squishy even if he was lean.


Yep, this.

Before I neutered Jack, he stayed reasonably muscled and toned on very little exercise. His exercise routine hasn't changed. He has ZERO muscle tone now. Some of that may be age - he's going to be 9 in a few weeks - but he was also 8 when he was neutered and the last year has made an enormous, obvious, difference in muscle tone. Meanwhile Thud is still hard as a rock with the same amount of exercise as Jack gets.

Don't even get me started on Kylie and Molly. Kylie in particular kills me. That dog runs 5 k, 3 times a week, swims 9 months of the year, hikes almost daily, and does agility multiple times a week. I have finally gotten her weight down but she has like... no obvious muscle tone. I mean she's a bag of squish. 

And while Molly's pretty good she's nothing even close to Thud, with about 4 times the exercise he gets.

And you know, Jack also went from a dog who was too thin to yet another dog we have to limit the caloric intake of post neuter. I'm about to get Thud neutered just so I can cut the amount of food I feed him to keep him from being a walking skeleton.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Men take steroids to boost testosterone for body building purposes. Obviously it has a big effect. Dogs going from normal testosterone levels to basically zero are obviously going to be effected in some way.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hehe, I'm thinking of those diet pill commercials with a woman saying something like "my boyfriend went on the Subway diet and lost 15 pounds in a month, and I keep gaining weight even though I HAVEN'T EATEN BREAD IN 3 YEARS!!!"

But yeah. Testosterone definitely burns calories and builds muscle. That's just a fact.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

CptJack said:


> I'm about to get Thud neutered just so I can cut the amount of food I feed him to keep him from being a walking skeleton.


Haha! I feel your pain. If I neutered Titan, I could probably cut back from 10 cups a day to 6-7! Hmmm.....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Hiraeth said:


> Haha! I feel your pain. If I neutered Titan, I could probably cut back from 10 cups a day to 6-7! Hmmm.....


Yep. Thud eats something like 8+ cups of food a day to maintain slightly less than fur covered skeleton. It's... honestly kind of obnoxious. He's also 3 now so I honestly *won't* feel too bad about it. 

I probably won't do it, though, until or unless I do something he needs put under for and then I'll do it all in one go. Which is what I did with Jack, at 8.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Watson is a small enough dog that his high metabolism is more of an asset than an annoyance. He doesn't eat an outrageous amount of food (though probably 1/3 more than a neutered dog his size), and I love that I can give him treats all day long without making him chubby. I don't have to worry about how many meatballs he's just eaten during a training session.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Testosterone absolutely helps build and maintain muscle development. It's not all exercise and feeding. The amount of exercise it took an intact male to stay in muscled condition is going to be much different from the amount of exercise it takes an intact dog.
> 
> Watson has not had much exercise in a while - Hazel took up my time, then he was injured, we were in classes every night, it's dark now, etc. His exercise has dropped way off. But he is still all muscle. Most people who pet him or feel him, including his vet, have commented. I'm not going to kid myself and say that walking him a few times a week and going to training classes is keeping him in this condition. And I have never met a neutered male who wasn't a bit squishy even if he was lean.


You just have to adjust their amount or style of exercise. I know many neutered males that are rock hard muscle and very little squish, genetics and nutrition also play a part, its not all about the nads.

I am sorry, but I find the fact that you insinuate that my dog will "become a bag of squish" just because he doesnt have his balls anymore a tad offensive, like it is insinuating that I depended on my dog's balls to keep him in shape or something.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> You just have to adjust their amount or style of exercise. I know many neutered males that are rock hard muscle and very little squish, genetics and nutrition also play a part, its not all about the nads.
> 
> I am sorry, but I find the fact that you insinuate that my dog will "become a bag of squish" just because he doesnt have his balls anymore a tad offensive, like it is insinuating that I depended on my dog's balls to keep him in shape or something.


I don't think anyone insinuated that at all. CptJack said one of her dogs was a "bag of squish" and elrohwen stated that neutered males tend to be squishier than intact males... But if you're going to take offense at something someone says and then attempt to quote them, please quote their exact words. Extrapolating and then getting offended because of the way *you* extrapolate isn't anyone else's fault.

You can't argue with science. Testosterone helps build and maintain muscle. You stated that it didn't, which was incorrect. You're stating a lot of things that are your opinion as fact in this thread. 



> Because beyond about 2 years, the hormones don't really have a benefit for them.





> Maybe its different in giant breeds, but in most breeds, if you wait too long after the growth plates close (like after 24 months) the risk of bone cancer increases, but if done before 24 months (excluding giant breeds of course because it might be different with them).





> Loss of muscle tone is due to lack of exercise, not because they dont have their nads anymore.


All of those statements are unproven at best and incorrect at worst. You can obviously have your opinions about them and act as you see fit, but multiple people are telling you that a few of these statements are wrong because they are directly contradictory to proven scientific fact.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also, let me be clear here:

The dog I called a 'bag of squish' is a SPAYED FEMALE.

All I said about Jack's change was that his muscle tone dropped off obviously and dramatically post neuter and added to that the fact that it may be age related, though he was also older when neutered. 

And then went on to describe Molly as more toned than aforementioned bag of squish, so. ?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> I don't think anyone insinuated that at all. CptJack said one of her dogs was a "bag of squish" and elrohwen stated that neutered males tend to be squishier than intact males... But if you're going to take offense at something someone says and then attempt to quote them, please quote their exact words. Extrapolating and then getting offended because of the way *you* extrapolate isn't anyone else's fault.
> 
> You can't argue with science. Testosterone helps build and maintain muscle. You stated that it didn't, which was incorrect. You're stating a lot of things that are your opinion as fact in this thread.
> 
> ...


If you look, I DID quote her exact post. 

And there is a lot of posting opinion as fact on this thread, not just from me (not that I am doing it).

The bottom line is no one should be shamed for fixing their dog, or keeping it intact, it is their choice and they have their reasons.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The fact that testosterone has a huge impact on an dog's ability to build and maintain muscle mass is not an opinion. It's basic biology. You stating otherwise is incorrect.

Nobody said anything about your dog specifically. Are you seriously taking personal offense to a general conversation about the impacts of neutering? :eye roll:

Maybe your dog will be the special snowflake who shows absolutely zero metabolism or muscle change post-neuter. Maybe you will suddenly start treadmilling and roadworking him for half an hour a day and he will be ripped. But it doesn't change how testosterone works in the body and it doesn't change the fact that it *does* impact dogs even after their growth plates have closed.

ETA: And now you're claiming that people are shaming others for their choice to spay or neuter? Are you reading a different thread? That hasn't happened once.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> The fact that testosterone has a huge impact on an dog's ability to build and maintain muscle mass is not an opinion. It's basic biology. You stating otherwise is incorrect.
> 
> Nobody said anything about your dog specifically. Are you seriously taking personal offense to a general conversation about the impacts of neutering? :eye roll:
> 
> ...


I dont think anyone disagreed with the fact that it does impact dogs, but saying they will become "bags of squish" is a blanket statement, and therefore offensive to people who really work to keep their dogs fit.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I dont think anyone disagreed with the fact that it does impact dogs, but saying they will become "bags of squish" is a blanket statement, and therefore offensive to people who really work to keep their dogs fit.


That was a comment by CptJack about her own dog. MrsBoats and I commented on seeing lots of neutered dogs who are squishy. 

In what universe is that offensive to you or your dog???


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> If you look, I DID quote her exact post.


CptJack said: "I mean she's a bag of squish."

You said: "...You insinuate that my dog will 'become a bag of squish'".

That is not an exact quote.

ETA: No one is shaming anyone for wanting to neuter their dogs. We're presenting facts that people should know about neutering. In a thread that I specifically requested didn't go this direction because I wanted information ABOUT intact dogs, but it was steered this way by repeated posting and stating of non-facts that ignored my request entirely. 

Fact #1: Both all breed and breed-specific surveys show a positive correlation between neutering and osteosarcoma. 

Fact #2: Removing testosterone from a male dog's system impacts musculature and the dog's ability to build muscle. 

Those are both FACTS. 

The studies DO show a correlation between neutering and cancer. Whether you want to believe the surveys or not is up to you - many people find fault with the way they are conducted and the breeds on which the breed-specific surveys were based. So, whether those results are scientific fact is a bit of a stretch and up for debate. But it remains a 100% fact that the study results indicate a correlation between neutering and cancer.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Testosterone absolutely helps build and maintain muscle development. It's not all exercise and feeding. The amount of exercise it took an intact male to stay in muscled condition is going to be much different from the amount of exercise it takes an intact dog.
> 
> Watson has not had much exercise in a while - Hazel took up my time, then he was injured, we were in classes every night, it's dark now, etc. His exercise has dropped way off. But he is still all muscle. Most people who pet him or feel him, including his vet, have commented. I'm not going to kid myself and say that walking him a few times a week and going to training classes is keeping him in this condition. *And I have never met a neutered male who wasn't a bit squishy even if he was lean.*





MrsBoats said:


> I keep my two intact because they are performance dogs and more or less athletes. I need them to have good muscling to be able to do agility or the higher levels of obedience and not break down. Testosterone definitely does support and maintain a strong musculoskeletal system for dogs. I've seen plenty of neutered rotties who have a soft, dough-boy look about them. Ocean is ripped like a bodybuilder but his body can withstand the abuse that agility can dish out. He also has the strength to jump correctly and get his 90 pound body off the ground using his rear instead of his front end. I have zero issue getting both of my boys to focus only on me when I need them to. *I believe focus issues people seem to have with intact males is more of a training issue than a hormone one. If the floor is more exciting to your dog than you are...then that is on you as a handler/trainer/owner.*





elrohwen said:


> That was a comment by CptJack about her own dog. MrsBoats and I commented on seeing lots of neutered dogs who are squishy.
> 
> In what universe is that offensive to you or your dog???


I quoted the two posts I took offense to (with parts bolded for emphasis). LOL you literally said RIGHT THERE that "you have never met a neutered male who wasnt "a little bit doughy" and you admitted that keeping your dog intact was the reason for his muscle tone, not anything you are doing physically with him (even though you have in the past chastised me a while back for "forcing" him to play fetch because I dont run with him enough LOL). 

The quote from Mrs Boats I did take as a bit of a smack to the face, because it (to me) insinuated that because I couldnt get my dog to focus I "wasnt a good enough trainer". Which might be true, but still.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

...I spent my whole post talking about my own dogs (which are all but 1 altered, I add).  I never referenced a single thing you said, Owned, or your dogs, or anything of the freaking sort. I wasn't talking to you, and I wasn't talking about you. If you must have the truth I keep you on ignore and have for months. I figure that's best for everyone, because it stops stupid, petty arguments between us. Unless someone else quotes you I don't know WHAT you say. 

That does, in fact mean when I'm making a post about a subject, quoting someone else, I am not alluding to something you said. I can't be, because I don't READ YOUR POSTS. I am not insinuating a DANGED thing about you/your dogs/your opinions because I _don't know what you said_. That means it is absolutely, in no way, shape, or form, commentary on you/your choices/your dog/your life. 

I'm sorry, it just isn't.

It never is. It never will be. I'm not telling you that for any reason except the fact that maybe it will help you not tilt at windmills/feel attacked just because I'm engaging in a conversation somewhere you can see it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Spay/neuter reduces caloric needs about 25%, that'll get you a squishy dog if you don't change their feeding. I haven't read the whole thread because I usually don't get involved in altering discussions, but honestly exercise and diet are going to have way more of an impact on muscle tone than altering. Sedentary overfed dogs get squishy. Active appropriately fed dogs can easily maintain muscle mass whether they are altered or not. And again, genetics play a big role there. None of my dogs are ever going to look like those shredded pit bulls you see pictures of, because genetics. But Maisy and Squash in particular are pretty muscular especially when we are training a lot.

The cancer risks are pretty minuscule IMO. I had a long discussion about that with a very brilliant veterinary oncologist after the UCD Golden study came out. If you actually look at the numbers instead of the discussion of the numbers, the data analysis was technically not incorrect but a little bit misleading. Also keep in mind that you can say that something doubles a risk if the risk increases from .01% to .02% and have it sound much more significant than it is. (Not saying that's what the results of any particular study are, just an example). And some of the cancer risks essentially equal out (like the risk of testicular cancer vs prostate cancer). 

The one thing I'm really sold on so far is cruciate disease but even that I think has a tremendous amount of genetics contributing, then a small additional risk from altering. I had a long discussion about that with a veterinary surgeon after Maisy tore her cruciate. I also think people waaaay overestimate how long it takes growth plates to close. I've seen hundreds if not thousands of x-rays of adolescent dogs for HD screening and IME almost always the growth plates are closed in the knees and pelvis before a year old even in med-large breeds like retrievers. 

I mean, I don't really care if anyone alters their dog or not. I just don't like to see fear mongering and misrepresentation.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> ...I spent my whole post talking about my own dogs. I never referenced a single thing you said, Owned, or your dogs, or anything of the freaking sort. I wasn't talking to you, and I wasn't talking about you. If you must have the truth I keep you on ignore and have for months. I figure that's best for everyone, because it stops stupid, petty arguments between us. Unless someone else quotes you I don't know WHAT you say.
> 
> That does, in fact mean when I'm making a post about a subject, quoting someone else, I am not alluding to something you said. I can't be, because I don't READ YOUR POSTS. I am not insinuating a DANGED thing about you/your dogs/your opinions because I _don't know what you said_. That means it is absolutely, in no way, shape, or form, commentary on you/your choices/your dog/your life.
> 
> ...


I never said you were? You asked where I thought they said that they were using blanket statements, the only posts I quoted from you were the ones asking where others had said that.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I quoted the two posts I took offense to (with parts bolded for emphasis). LOL you literally said RIGHT THERE that "you have never met a neutered male who wasnt "a little bit doughy" and you admitted that keeping your dog intact was the reason for his muscle tone, not anything you are doing physically with him (even though you have in the past chastised me a while back for "forcing" him to play fetch because I dont run with him enough LOL).


I don't understand your point? No, I have not met a netuered dog who wasn't squishy with fairly poor muscle tone (even the ones who get a lot of exercise). My life experience is offensive to you? I didn't say anything about your dog and I've never met him. You taking offense doesn't change my experience though. I have not met neutered dogs who do things like mushing or hunting and are extremely active. I have met a number who get at least as much exercise as my dogs though, and I have noticed a difference in muscle tone. 

And yes, keeping my dog intact has a huge effect on his ability to build and maintain muscle. It's just science? Testosterone does that. That's why bodybuilders and athletes take steroids. You can build more muscle, build it faster, and maintain it easier with more testosterone.

And when the heck did I chastize you for not running with your dog? I remember that conversation, and the point that I (and other posters) were make is entirely different than what you remember. Again, try reading the things people write, instead of making it up in your head and responding to that.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> The quote from Mrs Boats I did take as a bit of a smack to the face, because it (to me) insinuated that because I couldnt get my dog to focus I "wasnt a good enough trainer". Which might be true, but still.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I wonder how any female dogs build muscle mass?


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


>


I've just been lurking. But this. This is great.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I wonder how any female dogs build muscle mass?


Well. Women DO produce testosterone. I mean not saying that it's all about hormones, because it's not (and I do think that genetics plays a huge role), but let's be real: It's not like hormones do NOTHING, either, and it's not like females of any species don't have any testosterone.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Well. Women DO produce testosterone. I mean not saying that it's all about hormones, because it's not, but let's be real: It's not like they do NOTHING, either, and it's not like females don't have any.


Yes, females also have testosterone. And if female body builders take testosterone they can also improve their ability to build muscle. 

Obviously neutered dogs have muscle mass. But I think stating that testosterone does nothing after a dog is 2+ years old is silly. Of course it does something. Whether it's important to you or not is totally up for debate and personal, but Owned is making statements that there is no point in having these hormones after a dog is fully grown and that's false. Hormones continue to do things for the life of the animal and taking them away will have some effect even if it's just metabolism.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Well. Women DO produce testosterone. I mean not saying that it's all about hormones, because it's not, but let's be real: It's not like hormones do NOTHING, either, and it's not like females don't have any.


I mean... I don't think anyone would deny that it's more difficult for a female to build muscle mass as compared to a male. I have a female body builder friend who can tell you all about that, lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> I mean... I don't think anyone would deny that it's more difficult for a female to build muscle mass as compared to a male. I have a female body builder friend who can tell you all about that, lol.


also that. 

And also the impact of steroids on female body builders. Not that all body builders use them, but it's a real thing. 

Or the fact the testosterone changes things in women when used in a prescribed way, or that some have more naturally occurring than others, and. Lots of stuff.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Spay/neuter reduces caloric needs about 25%, that'll get you a squishy dog if you don't change their feeding. I haven't read the whole thread because I usually don't get involved in altering discussions, but honestly exercise and diet are going to have way more of an impact on muscle tone than altering. Sedentary overfed dogs get squishy. Active appropriately fed dogs can easily maintain muscle mass whether they are altered or not. And again, genetics play a big role there. None of my dogs are ever going to look like those shredded pit bulls you see pictures of, because genetics. But Maisy and Squash in particular are pretty muscular especially when we are training a lot.
> 
> The cancer risks are pretty minuscule IMO. I had a long discussion about that with a very brilliant veterinary oncologist after the UCD Golden study came out. If you actually look at the numbers instead of the discussion of the numbers, the data analysis was technically not incorrect but a little bit misleading. Also keep in mind that you can say that something doubles a risk if the risk increases from .01% to .02% and have it sound much more significant than it is. (Not saying that's what the results of any particular study are, just an example). And some of the cancer risks essentially equal out (like the risk of testicular cancer vs prostate cancer).
> 
> ...


That is what my vet(s) said, too, and I dont care if someone keeps their dog intact as long as they are responsible, but I dont like to see fear mongering or misrepresentation either for, or against neutering/spaying.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> That is what my vet(s) said, too, and I dont care if someone keeps their dog intact as long as they are responsible, but I dont like to see fear mongering or misrepresentation either for, or against neutering/spaying.


You were the one misrepresenting current studies.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Well. Women DO produce testosterone.


In their testicles?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Yes, females also have testosterone. And if female body builders take testosterone they can also improve their ability to build muscle.
> 
> Obviously neutered dogs have muscle mass. But I think stating that testosterone does nothing after a dog is 2+ years old is silly. Of course it does something. Whether it's important to you or not is totally up for debate and personal, but Owned is making statements that there is no point in having these hormones after a dog is fully grown and that's false. Hormones continue to do things for the life of the animal and taking them away will have some effect even if it's just metabolism.


It's just as silly to say males can't maintain muscle mass without their testicles. Lots of silly blanket statements in this thread.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> It's just as silly to say males can't maintain muscle mass without their testicles. Lots of silly blanket statements in this thread.


I didn't say that they can't. I said that it was harder. I don't think that's up for debate? Men who lose their source of testosterone have a harder time putting on and maintaining muscle mass, and men who artificially boost their testosterone have an easier time. That's all anybody said.

ETA: I also said that my underexercised intact dog is still very muscular, more so than neutered males I know who get about the same amount of exercise. I don't pretend that I have anything to do with maintaining his condition (other than feeding the right amount so he doesn't get fat), and I don't think it's his breed. I do think it has something to do with the fact that he's intact though. I didn't say anything about hypothetical dogs in that case, just dogs that I know and have met.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> In their testicles?


I'm not trying to be snarky, but what does that have to do with female dogs ever having muscle mass? Ovaries DO produce testosterone though so altering discussions does still have some relevance there.

And I think even I said a few times that my spayed females had a range of muscle tone amongst them. Did someone actually say they can't, as opposed to testosterone playing a role in muscle tone? I don't know, I'm not following that closely. I can just say I certainly didn't INTEND to give that impression, because I don't actually believe it's the only factor just that it is _A_ factor.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also, being squishy doesn't necessarily have anything to do with muscle tone. I carry a fair layer of squish, but the muscles underneath are strong like oxen.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Also, being squishy doesn't necessarily have anything to do with muscle tone. I carry a fair layer of squish, but the muscles underneath are strong like oxen.


No, it doesn't. It can mean the dog carries extra fat or has poor muscle tone. Or both.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> No, it doesn't. It can mean the dog carries extra fat or has poor muscle tone. Or both.


Yeah. 

I mean Jack's older and he's heavier now. Not a lot - his weight is still good - but he has some covering over his ribs that he didn't before. Kylie's down to about perfect and she's just got lousy muscle tone. I don't know why. Clearly it works because she's fast and climbs and is not weak, but if you pick her up she feels like a bag of jello. Bug's muscle ton is decent, in spite of being older and spayed and good weight. Molly's a little tubby off and on, and her muscle tone is better than Kylie's, not quite as good as Bug's. There's obviously a lot of factors in play.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Are we really discussing whether female dogs produce testosterone? 

As CptJack mentioned, testosterone is one of the myriad factors that influence muscle development and puberty in both male and female dogs (and male and female humans)...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hiraeth said:


> Are we really discussing whether female dogs produce testosterone?


Ask yourself if that was really the question I was asking. 

Hint: What I was really asking is why did everyone get so obsessed with testosterone.


Poor squishy, poor muscle tone altered dogs. Their bodies are crying out.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Ask yourself if that was really the question I was asking.
> 
> Hint: What I was really asking is why did everyone get so obsessed with testosterone.
> 
> ...


Because testosterone is the hormone that influences muscle development and bone health? And we were talking about whether it effects a dog to remove it at any age, because someone said it didn't. And then we basically discussed the fact that there are multiple factors in any dog's muscle tone and development, of which testosterone level is only a single part.

I guess you missed all of that because you admittedly didn't read the thread before commenting.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh I thought we were just dogpiling ACD because of her heretical claim that her dog won't lose muscle mass just because he's neutered.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Oh I thought we were just dogpiling ACD because of her heretical claim that her dog won't lose muscle mass just because he's neutered.


Nope. We weren't. 

ETA: No one actually claimed that at all. ACD misread a post and got offended because she THOUGHT someone insinuated that her dog was going to turn into a bag of squish. Which never happened.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Nope. We weren't.
> 
> ETA: No one actually claimed that at all. ACD misread a post and got offended because she THOUGHT someone insinuated that her dog was going to turn into a bag of squish. Which never happened.


Yes. Nobody jumped on anybody until Owned got all upset that everybody apparently insulted her and her dog. Which never happened.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> You were the one misrepresenting current studies.


As were you, LOL. there is no definitive evidence what altering a dog (at the age appropriate for their breed and size) does or does not do. Not even vets can agree about the effects (or lack thereof).



sassafras said:


> It's just as silly to say males can't maintain muscle mass without their testicles. Lots of silly blanket statements in this thread.


Also agreed.



elrohwen said:


> I didn't say that they can't. I said that it was harder. I don't think that's up for debate? Men who lose their source of testosterone have a harder time putting on and maintaining muscle mass, and men who artificially boost their testosterone have an easier time. That's all anybody said.
> 
> ETA: I also said that my underexercised intact dog is still very muscular, more so than neutered males I know who get about the same amount of exercise. I don't pretend that I have anything to do with maintaining his condition (other than feeding the right amount so he doesn't get fat), and I don't think it's his breed. I do think it has something to do with the fact that he's intact though. I didn't say anything about hypothetical dogs in that case, just dogs that I know and have met.


Muscle tone can be (and often is) related to genetics. I have seen intact dogs of both sexes not have good muscle tone, and I have seen altered dogs with awesome muscle tone, so I will say from personal observation that I BELIEVE genetics does play a role, also.



sassafras said:


> Also, being squishy doesn't necessarily have anything to do with muscle tone. I carry a fair layer of squish, but the muscles underneath are strong like oxen.


LOL, its the same with competitive weight lifters, and football players (the offensive, and defensive line) there is a fair amount of "squish" on them, too, but I would be willing to bet they are strong as heck.



elrohwen said:


> Yes. Nobody jumped on anybody until Owned got all upset that everybody apparently insulted her and her dog. Which never happened.


No, because someone shouldnt take offense to someone saying "had never met a neutered male who wasnt a little bit doughy", right?

Poor dogs who have had their reproductive organs ripped out ... so DOUGHY (sarcasm).

Izze (pictured at 10 years old):


Bear (15 1/2 years old):


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

When did I mention current studies and their results? I mentioned my own dog and some I know. I also mentioned the well documented effects of testosterone in humans. To me it's not a stretch to think there may be a correlation with dogs but I never said there was a study on this particular topic.

And no, you shouldn't take offense because nobody was talking about you or your dog!!


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> As were you, LOL. *there is no definitive evidence what altering a dog (at the age appropriate for their breed and size) does or does not do.* Not even vets can agree about the effects (or lack thereof).


Yes, there is. 

It is very commonly agreed upon, as Sass mentioned, that cruciate disease is related to altering. It's also very commonly agreed upon that pediatrically altered dogs grow taller and "weedier" than their non-altered breed counterparts. 

So again, you're stating opinions as facts. 



OwnedbyACDs said:


> No, because someone shouldnt take offense to someone saying "had never met a neutered male who wasnt a little bit doughy", right?
> 
> Poor dogs who have had their reproductive organs ripped out ... so DOUGHY (sarcasm).


I didn't take offense to it. And I have neutered dogs. One is squishy. One is not. *shrug*

The only person, in my opinion, who could possibly take offense to CptJack or elrohwen's statements is someone who either did not read them thoroughly, is overly sensitive or is just looking for a reason to argue.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

No I believe that Sass said there is no strong evidence either way. But I do know from having altered dogs that the consensus that they will "be doughy" or out of shape is false, I have seen it in my own dogs.

BUT .... I guess when someone breeds their dog once, that automatically makes them an expert.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No I believe that Sass said there is no strong evidence either way. But I do know from having altered dogs that the consensus that they will "be doughy" or out of shape is false, I have seen it in my own dogs.





sassafras said:


> *The one thing I'm really sold on so far is cruciate disease* but even that I think has a tremendous amount of genetics contributing, then a small additional risk from altering.


Seems to me like you've been selectively reading this entire thread. You even managed to selectively read and ignore the fact that I asked that this conversation didn't take place here! In post #1.



OwnedbyACDs said:


> BUT .... I guess when someone breeds their dog once, that automatically makes them an expert.


If this was aimed at someone in particular, then it's truly the first rude thing I've seen said on this thread. Everyone has been pretty nice and tolerant of your persistent misreading, misquoting and misinformation. But it's getting old. Fast.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> BUT .... I guess when someone breeds their dog once, that automatically makes them an expert.


Dang and I thought *I* was salty today.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No I believe that Sass said there is no strong evidence either way. But I do know from having altered dogs that the consensus that they will "be doughy" or out of shape is false, I have seen it in my own dogs.
> 
> BUT .... I guess when someone breeds their dog once, that automatically makes them an expert.


Seriously?! You misread and misquote basically everything I said, but I'm the jerk? Ok. I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I merely shared observations and made comments on the known effects of testosterone in other animals. You act like I insulted your mother or something and now you're insulting me. 

If you said every spaniel you ever met was mean and bit people, would I be offended? No, because that comment has no bearing on me or my dogs. But that's the argument you're making. Anything said about dogs that relate to your dogs is a personal attack. You will have an easier time in life when you realize people aren't talking about you or anything to do with you. 

Get over yourself. Just because I know out of shape neutered dogs and in shape intact dogs says nothing about any dogs you own. It only says something about the sample of dogs who live near me. Stop trying to find things to be offended at and lashing out at me.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Aside from muscle tone/muscle mass/muscle building..... BOTH testosterone and estrogen play a very significant role of mammals throughout their life..... Bones are not static once growth is complete... Bones are made up of cells just like every other part of the body...
Bone cells die and new bone sells are formed.... 

Everything is fine as long as the ratio of new cells to dying cells stays normal.. But when it does not.... Osteoporosis is the result... Bones become brittle, bone density is lost and fractures become common.... The biggest cause of osteoporosis is lack of estrogen....
And before someone says this is a female issue... Male mammals convert a portion of their testosterone into estrogen to support the skeletal system.....

No Estrogen.... No testosterone that can be converted into estrogen? No hormones to support a healthy skeletal system....

This probably does not matter to pet dogs... But sport dogs.... Working dogs..... It can be a factor...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hank is pretty jacked and he is neutered.  He is very athletic. I also know a good number of neutered sport dogs that are well muscled. 

I have seen in my own dogs though that it is not uncommon for dogs to lose muscle and get a bit tubby post altering. It's hard to predict. Mia went from a bean pole to squishy to now overweight but she also has severely limited exercise.

Summer on the other hand is lean and really well muscled (losing a bit now in her age) and always has been. She has never had an ounce of fat on her and always borders on too skinny. 

Summer also did not get spay coat but Mia's coat definitely has a little bit of a texture problem. Beau also got fat and had coat problems whereas Trey was always very thin and no coat problems (both neutered at nearly the same age). It's odd but it makes me wonder why some dogs seem to have changes in coat and weight/muscle and other dogs do not.

I don't fret over Hank being neutered earlier than I'd like. It is what it is with a shelter dog. However if I'd had him with full choice on altering I probably wouldn't alter at all.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Seriously?! You misread and misquote basically everything I said, but I'm the jerk? Ok. I never claimed to be an expert on anything. I merely shared observations and made comments on the known effects of testosterone in other animals. You act like I insulted your mother or something and now you're insulting me.
> 
> If you said every spaniel you ever met was mean and bit people, would I be offended? No, because that comment has no bearing on me or my dogs. But that's the argument you're making. Anything said about dogs that relate to your dogs is a personal attack. You will have an easier time in life when you realize people aren't talking about you or anything to do with you.
> 
> Get over yourself. Just because I know out of shape neutered dogs and in shape intact dogs says nothing about any dogs you own. It only says something about the sample of dogs who live near me. Stop trying to find things to be offended at and lashing out at me.


So because you dont think its offensive, than no one else should, either, got it. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> Aside from muscle tone/muscle mass/muscle building..... BOTH testosterone and estrogen play a very significant role of mammals throughout their life..... Bones are not static once growth is complete... Bones are made up of cells just like every other part of the body...
> Bone cells die and new bone sells are formed....
> 
> Everything is fine as long as the ratio of new cells to dying cells stays normal.. But when it does not.... Osteoporosis is the result... Bones become brittle, bone density is lost and fractures become common.... The biggest cause of osteoporosis is lack of estrogen....
> ...


True ... BUT ... its not a constant, Izze was spayed at 6 months (before first heat) and she was one of the strongest, tireless working dogs I knew, she would even outwork and outlast intact males. Also, if you look at the high levels of any dog sport, you will find a great many neutered and spayed dogs up there. Like I said, I believe that genetics play a larger role than ovaries, or testicles.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> So because you dont think its offensive, than no one else should, either, got it.


Pretty sure nobody else thinks you are justified in being offended for comments that weren't directed at you in any way. I don't really feel sorry for making an inane comment about dogs in my area that had nothing to do with you. You, however, went out of your way to insult me. Nice.



> True ... BUT ... its not a constant, Izze was spayed at 6 months (before first heat) and she was one of the strongest, tireless working dogs I knew, she would even outwork and outlast intact males. Also, if you look at the high levels of any dog sport, you will find a great many neutered and spayed dogs up there. Like I said, I believe that genetics play a larger role than ovaries, or testicles.


Nobody said that speutered dogs aren't strong and hard working? Where do you get this stuff? I swear you are reading a different thread sometimes.

Also nobody ever said genetics *wasn't* a huge factor. There can be multiple factors. Obviously there are. You are the one trying to make this either/or. Yes genetics play a huge role. Yes diet and exercise play a huge role. But you can't pretend that removing a major source of hormones from a dog can't possibly have *some* physical effect on them, positive or negative. You talk about how neutering had a mental effect on Lincoln, but if anybody suggests (even roundabout, since nobody actually said anything about your dog) he might possibly be effected physically you get upset.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Pretty sure nobody else thinks you are justified in being offended for comments that weren't directed at you in any way. I don't really feel sorry for making an inane comment about dogs in my area that had nothing to do with you. You, however, went out of your way to insult me. Nice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, his mental changes could also be maturity, as well, because as others have said he hasnt been neutered long enough to see any changes, okay, fair enough.

JB said that with a sporting or working dog, they might be effected by speutering, which I dont believe is the case, because there are a LOT of high level working and sporting dogs who are fixed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> So because you dont think its offensive, than no one else should, either, got it.
> 
> 
> 
> True ... BUT ... its not a constant, Izze was spayed at 6 months (before first heat) and she was one of the strongest, tireless working dogs I knew, she would even outwork and outlast intact males. Also, if you look at the high levels of any dog sport, you will find a great many neutered and spayed dogs up there. Like I said, I believe that genetics play a larger role than ovaries, or testicles.


I really do not know what you are attempting to argue here. 



OwnedbyACDs said:


> Well, his mental changes could also be maturity, as well, because as others have said he hasnt been neutered long enough to see any changes, okay, fair enough.
> 
> JB said that with a sporting or working dog, they might be effected by speutering, which I dont believe is the case, because there are a LOT of high level working and sporting dogs who are fixed.


Or here for that matter...

The fact that there are some high level sporting dogs that are altered does not change the fact that it is quite possible for altered dogs to suffer from bone loss and have an increased chance of bone fracture. 

Post menopausal and post hysterectomy women and men with testosterone issues compete in sports as well. Still... that does not chance the fact they have a far greater chance of skeletal injury. 


As for working dogs... The altered question rarely comes up. Police agencies, military, hunters, ranchers, etc do not commonly alter dogs. 

No one is SAYING.... That an altered dog cannot be athletic, strong, etc. 

But you are choosing to argue fact with your opinion...... Just does not work....


If you took two calves born the same day same breed, same sire, sister cows.... Let them wean off and grow, But then castrate one at nine months and leave the other a bull.... Then put them in the same pasture feed them exactly the same diet, etc. Everything exactly the same.... At three years of age, the difference will be quite dramatic. 

No one is saying it is a bad thing to alter a dog... No one is saying your dog cannot be well muscled and athletic. But there will be some physiological differences between an altered dog and an intact dog.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Okay everyone, I think the thread has been dragged far enough off course. Lets please restrain ourselves to answering the question the OP actually asked, and leave the debating of the pros/cons of spay/neuter for another thread.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I wanted to respond to the original question. I do find there to be a difference in living with an intact male vs a neutered male or a female (intact or spayed). I do find that there are messes associated with intact male dogs. Sometime around 8months when hormones kick in the smell of an intact male dog's urine changes. I have two similarly aged male dogs in my house right now, one was neutered at 2months and the other is intact. Lad smells, Max does not. Lad needs more baths than Max because he gets urine on himself (they both do, it is the joy of male dogs) and his urine stinks. A simple wipe down of paws and "delicate areas" is not enough to keep the smell down. It is not just Lad, every intact male dog I have known has had stinky urine. 

There is also smegma, some males produce more than others and some dogs are cleaner about it than others. The drooling really bothers me more though. When Lad is interested in things he chuffs and drools, he is interested in everything. Again this is not unique to him. He leaves puddles around my house and he is a tight lipped dog (we aren't talking a drooling breed). Max, who is within a month of age, does not do this. This is not something my female dogs do. He is not the first dog I've had do this. I've had many dogs in and out off my house, intact males, neutered males, intact females, and spayed females. 

These are personal observations. I do find there to be definite messes and other downsides to living with an intact male. I still prefer male dogs but I have to say that I don't know if I would keep a male intact past 2 years (maybe 3 in a giant breed) because for me these issues are deal breakers. 

Lad is not a skeleton with fur though he eats only 3 cups a day of high quality food. Sometimes he even refuses meals (he self regulates well). I never had issue keeping weight on Remus either. Max is a skeleton despite eating the same 3 cups and being smaller than Lad (and neutered). I've been fighting to get weight on him since he arrived 2 months ago. The big thing for me though is focus. When adolescence hits my intact males lose focus and they don't get it back until they mature. The neutered males and females (spayed or intact) just don't experience the same struggle.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Thanks for the insight, Remaru. I can't smell very well (dropped on my head as a kid, we think it severed my olfactory nerve), but I'd hate for other people think my intact dog smelled badly. I'll have to have my mom come over and do "smell checks"  

I'll watch for signs of excess drooling. Part of the reason I opted for a Dane over other giant breeds (Mastiff, St. Bernard) is because they're supposed to drool a bit less than those super droopy-jowled dogs. It would stink if he filled my entire house with puddles.

I'm not a person who needs large amounts of focus from their dogs. I don't do sport work with them, I do training when they are calm and focused and leave it when they're being squirrely. But I will definitely keep a close watch on Titan to see if his focus really drops off as he matures. He'll be my first intact adult male, so I don't have much to compare it to, but it will definitely be interesting to see how it all goes. A learning experience, if nothing else


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

I've just skimmed through this thread for now and plan to go back through it in a bit. II have my first intact dog right now so I find this interesting. I have two Aussies, one was neutered very young and the other will be 2 in February and I plan on keeping intact. Both are working lines so similar dogs to compare. I've noticed some big differences in them so far and many ppl have commented on the younger dogs being typical of a young intact male aussie. I've been curious if these things are really due to being intact vs just them having different temperaments. 

What I've found with my intact boy:
Humping other dogs when excited has been a big issue. And he's pretty much excited all the time lol 
Focus is the big one. The neutered male is a very serious and focused dog even when young. The intact one is soo distracted, its made training frustrating at times. I guess he has plenty of focus its just directed at everything but what we are working on. 
Marking hasn't been an issue in the house but huge thing to work on at agility and herding. Can't be peeing on the tunnel at a trial! He's also marked on me once when he saw another intact male. Wasn't happy about that.
He generally loves other dogs but II heard his first growl when he met his intact brother recently which was also when he marked on my leg..
And again just the excitability is a big difference in the two. They are both really high drive dogs but the intact one just loses his brain sometimes when he sees something that he loves.
Intact dog is also just more of a goofball personality
Physically they are both really muscular athletic dogs. Both are hard to keep weight on. Neutered one is a little more leggy and wirey. Intact one has more coat.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

lauren17 said:


> I've just skimmed through this thread for now and plan to go back through it in a bit. II have my first intact dog right now so I find this interesting. I have two Aussies, one was neutered very young and the other will be 2 in February and I plan on keeping intact. Both are working lines so similar dogs to compare. I've noticed some big differences in them so far and many ppl have commented on the younger dogs being typical of a young intact male aussie. I've been curious if these things are really due to being intact vs just them having different temperaments.
> 
> What I've found with my intact boy:
> Humping other dogs when excited has been a big issue. And he's pretty much excited all the time lol
> ...


See that the same issues I had, too, the marking on (or inside!!!!) the agility tunnels, the distractibility etc .... Even if I wasnt under contract, I still probably would have fixed him, because I wasnt going to use his nads, why keep them and have that extra issue? For me personally, it was just better if they were gone LOL.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> See that the same issues I had, too, the marking on (or inside!!!!) the agility tunnels, the distractibility etc .... Even if I wasnt under contract, I still probably would have fixed him, because I wasnt going to use his nads, why keep them and have that extra issue? For me personally, it was just better if they were gone LOL.


Seriously? Did you miss Kuma's post above? We all know you neutered your dog. We all know you thought it was the best choice for you. We know these things because you've repeated them constantly. On a thread that's asking about living with an intact dog, not about "did you find your dogs testicles to be useful to him" and "why did you neuter your dog". 

Not sure what about the message to "keep it on topic" isn't getting across or what the disconnect is here.

Also, I just can't take it any more, they're "testicles".


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> See that the same issues I had, too, the marking on (or inside!!!!) the agility tunnels, the distractibility etc .... Even if I wasnt under contract, I still probably would have fixed him, because I wasnt going to use his nads, why keep them and have that extra issue? For me personally, it was just better if they were gone LOL.


Last warning, there are plenty of other threads where you can discuss the pros and cons of neutering, that's not what this thread is for.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Last warning, there are plenty of other threads where you can discuss the pros and cons of neutering, that's not what this thread is for.


That wasnt my intention, I just meant to share my experience, because the person I quoted did have many of the same issues I was having with my dog.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> That wasnt my intention, I just meant to share my experience, because the person I quoted did have many of the same issues I was having with my dog.


Discussing why you chose to neuter your dog is not relevant to the topic of the thread, and you have stated many times over here why you neutered. So once again, if you wish to discuss why you neutered your dog, you can start a new thread or post in one of the many existing threads on neutering. But it has no place in this thread.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm wondering. We had the problem of the green drops Mike left in the house. He's the only intact male I've owned and he isn't intact anymore so the green drops problem went away. 

But are the green drops normal? Are other intact male owners familiar with the green drops? Is there something that can be done about it? On the Dutch forums I've only gotten responses like 'rub herbal tea on it' or something. On his genitals, that is. Which sounds completely ridiculous to me. 

I'm not partial to males or females for future dogs, but like I said before I'd rather deal with blood drops twice a year from females in heat than always the green drops. I'd feel a lot better about choosing for a male again in the future if I knew the green drops aren't inherent to being intact. I'd like to keep my future dogs intact, Mike was only neutered because of medical reasons. But. The green drops. If that's always gonna be an issue with intact males I think I'll just stick to females.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have never seen green drops....

Now the boys with feathered coats are pretty bad about Peeing on themselves. And beau liked to um.. Lick himself. A lot. Nard never does and trey didn't. Trey also didn't pee on his belly hair but he squatted his whole life (even though he wasn't neutered till late). 

I like girls for these reasons. And hank is short haired whih is much nicer for that reason.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Avie said:


> I'm wondering. We had the problem of the green drops Mike left in the house. He's the only intact male I've owned and he isn't intact anymore so the green drops problem went away.
> 
> But are the green drops normal? Are other intact male owners familiar with the green drops? Is there something that can be done about it? On the Dutch forums I've only gotten responses like 'rub herbal tea on it' or something. On his genitals, that is. Which sounds completely ridiculous to me.
> 
> I'm not partial to males or females for future dogs, but like I said before I'd rather deal with blood drops twice a year from females in heat than always the green drops. I'd feel a lot better about choosing for a male again in the future if I knew the green drops aren't inherent to being intact. I'd like to keep my future dogs intact, Mike was only neutered because of medical reasons. But. The green drops. If that's always gonna be an issue with intact males I think I'll just stick to females.


Weird that you just posted and asked this. Because I was just doing some reading about it. 

The greenish/white secretion on an unneutered dog's penis is called "smegma" (fabulous name, great party conversation starter), and is normal unless it is being produced at an excessive rate or in large amounts, apparently. Copious amounts of smegma can indicate bacterial or bladder infections, among a few other things. 

In small amounts, it sounds super normal. I think most male dogs lick it off before we ever notice it, but I've cleaned Titan off a few times now. 

Doesn't bother me any, I've dealt with worse. Like the long piece of grass Titan ate and his body didn't digest that I had to remove from his anus the other day. Talk about thrilling!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

But I may have 100% females from now on. 

Hank is being a real brat with the girls lately. Trying to mount, whining, chattering, etc.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

To contrast (not contradict) Remaru and Lauren17 - some of the traits that you've described for intact dogs also describe Shep (even today at 15yo!) and he was fixed at 6 mos.

1. Shep is a 65lb Lab/GSD medium to large dog (depending on opinion  ), with average to short legs and a medium to short lengthed body, but average height.
2. Shep 'learned' to hump other dogs during playdates ... he may have learned this NON-aggressive behavior (on his part) from intact dogs. I don't recall ... but he never forgot, and if he didn't have arthritis, his excitement would increase with the right ... partner 
3. Shep still drools - I believe this is due to a smell-driven trait, and triggered by detecting pheromones in the vomeronasal organ in the mouth, resulting in chattering and drooling [someone will correct me if I have the anatomy wrong, but this is the behavior that Shep still does when he smells bitch pee, whether or not she is intact!]. Shep may also drool a little in the house when he detects some insects [ Charleston is subtropic and we have lots of bugs, even for Christmas].
4. Never had a significant smegma issue, might be due to Shep keeping himself clean?
5. Shep can no longer lift his leg, so he squats ... He 'aims' when he's trying to mark. He learned to lift his leg when 3yo.
6. Shep is round, but lean. I don't overfeed him and I exercise him twice a day. He used to be solid and strong. Now, He's losing muscle, but not getting fat.
7. Shep is a Lab mix, so he is a goofball personality. He's also always hungry. For 6mos to a year, Shep gained significant weight, developing the muscularity, definition, and shape of a ewe [ LOL], b/c I was free feeding him. [Yes, I tried to free feed a Lab ... more than 10 years ago ... I learned.] Once I realized that he wasn't supposed to be round and fluffy [but he looked so cute and so happy!], I portioned out his food, and he leaned out quickly. Yes, the reduction in hormones causes this, but it was very easy to control. 

Note: Shep is only one datum point. YMMV


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

LOL boys are just jerks hahahaha


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> Weird that you just posted and asked this. Because I was just doing some reading about it.
> 
> The greenish/white secretion on an unneutered dog's penis is called "smegma" (fabulous name, great party conversation starter), and is normal unless it is being produced at an excessive rate or in large amounts, apparently. Copious amounts of smegma can indicate bacterial or bladder infections, among a few other things.
> 
> ...


Smegma. 

...Smegma. 

That word gives me the goosebumps. Sounds like a name for a supervillain. Thanks for researching by the way  Also your thrilling story, wow 

Also Laurelin, you make me a little more hopeful. Maybe smegma isn't a thing with all intact dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Avie said:


> Smegma.
> 
> ...Smegma.
> 
> ...


I never noticed it with Lincoln, or Bear (who was intact until about 6 years old) so maybe it has something to do with the individual male's uh ... personal hygiene practices (or lack thereof)? LOL


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I have never seen green drops or smegma, but Watson has a lot of feathers that probably soak it up anyway.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Some males produce more smegma than others and some males are more tidy than others (spend more time cleaning themselves). Remus groomed his entire body, even kept his nails short so smegma was never an issue with him (if he slept in the same spot for a very long time you might see something there but otherwise nothing). Lad is not a self groomer other than some paw cleaning, I do find some drops on the floor here and there. Smegma seems to decrease when dogs are neutered but since it is variable it is hard to really tell unless you have a dog who was intact through maturity and then neutered. 

Freyja and Lenore will both do a bit of sniffing and chuffing. The big difference I find between them and Lad or Remus (in the past) is the level and the amount of drool. They notice a smell here and there and get interested then lose interest. It happens maybe once a week and they are distracted quickly. Though they will do the lip licking and flaring response they don't drool. Lad sniffs everything and becomes over excited to the point of drooling over many different smells (male dog urine, female dog urine, and any number of other smells). Max only drools for food, his whole world is food. 

Most of my males have learned to "mark" and even little Blue does it (and she is a female spayed at 6months). I don't really care about the leg lifting vs not thing and so long as marking is done outside of the house it doesn't bother me either. My big issue is that intact male dog urine stinks. Every male dog I've ever had, personal pet and foster excluding Duke has managed to pee on himself fairly routinely. With the neutered males a quick wipe down took care of it, with the intact males a full bath was necessary because the urine had a strong odor. I will say that I have a strong sense of smell and odors that other people don't notice bother me. I had intended to keep my males intact until 5+ and then consider neutering but at this point I have decided that I will neuter when they are full grown as I cannot live with the smell/mess. Unless I should have a good reason to need to keep a dog intact in the future.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I have never seen green drops or smegma, but Watson has a lot of feathers that probably soak it up anyway.


Maybe Lincoln's feathers soaked it up, too (ewww!)? IDK, Bear didnt have a long coat and he never had any secretions LOL. is Smegma a sign that something is wrong?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Maybe Lincoln's feathers soaked it up, too (ewww!)? IDK, Bear didnt have a long coat and he never had any secretions LOL. is Smegma a sign that something is wrong?


All mammals produce smegma. It is a mix of skin cells, skin oils and moisture. Too much smegma may be a sign of infection but the presence of smegma is completely normal.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

Oh, I did forget about the intact dog urine smell. My Brooks pees on his legs and it's one of the reasons he no longer has long coat on his legs. No one wants to bathe a poodle all the time  But, I'd honestly bathe him the same amount even if he didn't have stinky intact dog urine. Because crispy leg feathers are gross. My neutered Brussels Griffon has stronger smelling urine as well. My male Chow does not.

My intact dog does not have a smegma issue (I'm sure it's there, as he's a boy. But I've never seen him licking and he doesn't leave any sort of a mess) I think it's an individual dog thing as to how much they produce. My neutered male Chow has always had an issue. When he was under 6-7 months, it was vile. Now it's there but not as obvious nor as frequent


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Smegma isn't just intact males, I've dealt with some of that with neutered males. Depends on the dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have never dealt with it (guess I just have really neat boys LOL), does it smell or anything like that?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> But are the green drops normal? Are other intact male owners familiar with the green drops? Is there something that can be done about it? On the Dutch forums I've only gotten responses like 'rub herbal tea on it' or something. On his genitals, that is. Which sounds completely ridiculous to me.
> 
> .


If you had green smegma and enough you were noticing it... You had an issue....

It should be off whitish.... Maybe a little yellowish.... But NOT green... 

And you should not be noticing it regularly...... And you definitely should not be finding spots of it on the ground.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If you had green smegma and enough you were noticing it... You had an issue....
> 
> It should be off whitish.... Maybe a little yellowish.... But NOT green...
> 
> And you should not be noticing it regularly...... And you definitely should not be finding spots of it on the ground.


This. I agree.


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