# Finding one food to fit two dogs [Opinions]



## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

I'm trying to find one diet to fit the needs of two dogs, this seems almost impossible! 
I'm in no hurry to switch because I am doing research on each of the companies, I want this to be a thoroughly considered decision. 

Here is a little bit about each dog: 

Kozo's Lily - 10 month old female spayed West Highland White Terrier. Currently fed Performatin ultra lamb puppy formula and omega 3 caps. The concern with her is she vomits on lamb based foods (yes, we ruled out any illness causing vomiting) and has seasonal/food allergies. Improvement seen on the above diet but the weather also turned colder. 

McDuff - 6 year old male neutered West Highland White Terrier. Currently fed Purina Veterinary Diet Dermatological management and Wellness canned lamb-based food. Concerns: food allergy to chicken/wheat protein and seasonal itching. 

What I'm looking for: 
- a lamb based diet (will consider fish but the dogs don't seem to dig it that much) 
- a food rich in omega fatty acids
- A company with sufficient quality control measures 
- reasonable price for food (preferred to be available through a veterinary clinic as well as pet supply store)

This is what I am considering so far:
Acana Grassland formula - I don't know enough about this diet or the company's quality control. Waiting to hear back to make an informed decision. All protein sources are one's that should be tolerated well. 

Performatin ultra adult (lamb and brown rice) - again waiting to hear back regarding quality control. I cannot order this through work but its price is comparable for each size so that's fine. Currently happy with the puppy formula. For those not familiar with the food, http://www.petvalu.com/in-our-store...-ultra-lamb-brown-rice-formula-adult-dog-food

... Tell me about GO! dog food (I could only use the duck one) does anyone know anything on the company and their quality control measures?

I considered the Iams Veterinary Formula Skin & Coat Response Kangaroo but kind of as a last resort. I'm hesitant to use an uncommon protein source without severe food allergies. 

The No-Go List: have turned their noses up to Wellness dry formulas already, Blue Buffalo is a no go either, my oldest did very poorly on that as it was too rich for him. Orijen I cannot purchase locally and I don't want to rely on ordering online. 

So please tell me, what do you think of Acana and Performatrin ultra? or GO! ? 
It's unfamiliar turf for me!


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Going to see if I can refresh this thread a little, I would like some peoples opinions regarding the diets. I'm trying to keep an open mind about alternatives to veterinary based foods so I'd appreciate any opinions on the diets I can get or if they will be suitable for my dogs needs.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Of those three, I would choose Acana because it's grain-free and has higher fat/protein levels. I don't know anything about Performatrin, but I believe both Go/Now and Acana are both made by pretty respectable companies with good quality control. I feed Acana myself (Pacifica, currently) and have been happy with it.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Go and Now are both very good foods. Acana is good too, but I don't love their new formulas. 

You aren't going to find a kibble that is rich in Omega 3 though. It's basically all cooked out. 

If you're open to dehydrated Grandma Lucy's Lamb formula comes to mind.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Acana is great. My AKK does amazing on it (soft shiny coat, lots of energy, firm dark poop). He mostly eats the fish formula, but they're all quality.

Have you looked at Nature's Variety Instinct? Grain free, very good company, and they have limited ingredient diets (one of them is lamb only). They use tapioca as the starch -- an alternative to the potato you find in many other grain-free foods. I've also been told that Earthborn is good. They have a bison/lamb formula and a straight-up lamb formula.


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

^^ WHAT THEY SAID^^ Also if allergies are that big of an issue, have you considered or would you be willing to consider home cooking or Raw for them??? This way you now exactly what and have full control over what goes into their foods


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

I can look to see if the other suggestions are available here locally at the smaller stores. I'll write the names down and when I go out tomorrow I will see if I can find them available in the area. I'm not open to ordering online at this point (that could change) because I have had problems doing so in the past, I think because I live in a smaller town but I am open to just about anything so long as I can get a little bit of info about the company, the big recall with Taste of the wild makes me more concerned about quality control measures. 

Lucky for me the food allergies are not a huge issue *knock on wood* I was able to determine the causes through trial and error. As long as I avoid chicken and wheat both dogs seem to be fine. They are not serious food allergies as I've seen in other pets, both dogs have been well managed so far on kibble diets. It's just McDuff is getting recurrent ear infections and itching a little more (especially with it being colder) for my liking so I want to change him over for sure. 

No, I have not considered raw or home-cooked because I just don't have the time to prepare something like that. I would consider it if absolutely nothing else worked becuase my dogs will get what they need. The factors that keep me from considering it are: lack of time, lack of storage space, cost. I work very long shifts at the emergency hospital and luckily the dogs can come with me but sticking to a kibble would be easier (unless I have exhausted all other options). 

I do appreciate the opinions 



boxerlover876 said:


> Go and Now are both very good foods. Acana is good too, but I don't love their new formulas.


What is it about the new formulas by Acana that you don't like? Is there anything specific?


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

My allergy westie mix eats Evo Herring and Salmon. It's one of the few kibbles that's grain free, potato free, and alfalfa free. Maddie still has allergy issues, but this food helps.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

WestieLove said:


> What is it about the new formulas by Acana that you don't like? Is there anything specific?


All I know is the Acana grain frees now have increased plant protein content from lentils and beans. Didn't the price also go up?


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

zhaor said:


> All I know is the Acana grain frees now have increased plant protein content from lentils and beans. Didn't the price also go up?


This is exactly why I'm not loving Acana anymore. They took out meat and added in lentils to keep the protein percentage up.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Alright, so far I have contacted Champion (Acana/Orijen), Performatin Ultra and Petcurean (Go!/Now/Summit). These are some of the questions I have been asking regarding the products and most companies shouldn't take anymore then 3-5 business days to respond (this is my experience with equine nutrition). 

Yes, I am even contacting the Natures Variety Instinct that was recommended. I hope to hear back from this one because it's sparked my interest. I think I would like to try this if its cost comparable. I feel like I have seen this in Pet Value before so I should be able to get it and there is the whole less is more, right? Would you recommend the same switch methods as a pet owner would to other kibbles? 

Just some of the questions I have sent out asking:
1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
3. Which of your diet(s) is AAFCO Feed Trial tested? Which of your diets meet AAFCO Nutritional requirements?
4. What Testing do you do beyond AAFCO trials?
5. What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line? What safety measures do you use?
6. Where are your diets produced and manufactured? Can this plant be visited?
7. Can you provide a complete product nutrient analysis of your bestselling canine and feline pet food [or a specific line I am looking at] including digestibility values?
8. Can you give me the caloric value per can or cup of your diets?

I do appreciate the help guy's. I love my veterinary based diets but I have been able to manage skin problems in both my dogs without them and if my dogs can eat more meat vs. plant then I am going to be willing to try it. Currently only feeding one vet diet because our last diet line was discontinued and I got despirate. 

I am still open to any more suggestions! This is very good educaiton for me, especially if I can get the information I'm looking for from some of these companies.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I personally don't care a whole bunch about AfCCO because their "trials" are junk. Basically for a food to pass its standard at least 75% (I believe) have to stay alive on the food without dropping too much weight as to look emaciated. I know there are some kibbles that don't take AFCCO into account and don't have them approved, do I wouldn't let that deter you from that food.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

boxerlover876 said:


> I personally don't care a whole bunch about AfCCO because their "trials" are junk. Basically for a food to pass its standard at least 75% (I believe) have to stay alive on the food without dropping too much weight as to look emaciated. I know there are some kibbles that don't take AFCCO into account and don't have them approved, do I wouldn't let that deter you from that food.


I am pretty sure it has to at least be formulated to meet nutrient profiles. A lack of a feeding trial isn't going to send me away from it completely but I would like to see it. It's not the thing I am most concerned about on the list of questions.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> I am pretty sure it has to at least be formulated to meet nutrient profiles.


doesnt mean much



> Although the Nutrient Profile system has done a lot to standardize the business of pet food production, it’s not without its critics. There are studies that suggest some nutrient levels may be too high, and others too low. The Nutrient Profile system of formulation does not address the issue of ingredient quality whatsoever. One critic of this method *(Dr. Mark Morris, who also founded Hill’s Pet of feed formulation designed a “food” that met all the AAFCO nutrient profile requirements – even though the food was primarily formulated from old shoe leather, sawdust and motor oil with a multi-vitamin-mineral supplement.* Obviously, there would be no guarantee that any animal would eat such a food, or could digest it, even though it contained all the vitamins, minerals, protein, fat, etc. that the nutrient profiles required.


ya, meeting the nutrient profiles doesnt mean a darn thing lol


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

this is Champion pet foods answers BTW, posted on another forum by someone else who asked

1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
We have two veterinary consultants (DVM), one companion animal nutritionist (MSc) and numerous others with years of experience with animal feed and formulation. The nutritionists are full time employees and are available for questions. Please contact customer care and the message can be directed to the appropriate person.

2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
The above mentioned people are all involved in diet formulation.

3.Which of your diet(s) is AAFCO Feed Trial tested? Which of your diets have been AAFCO Nutritional analyzed?
All of our diets are formulated to meet the nutritional levels established by AAFCO. Every lot of food is tested for protein, ash, fat, fibre, moisture, calcium and phosphorus. Each diet has a complete nutritional analysis conducted by an independent research laboratory to ensure all AAFCO requirements are met.

4. What Testing do you do beyond AAFCO trials?
We test digestibility and palatability on every diet.

5. What specific quality control measures do you use to assure the consistency and quality of your product line? What safety measures do you use?
Champion Petfoods is one of only 2 plants in Canada that is European Union Certified (Category 3) and is currently in the process of becoming the only pet food plant in Canada to be HAACP certified. All quality control and food safety measures must adhere to these regulations.
Our Quality Assurance department follows protocols for testing from the time ingredients enter our plant, through production, and packaging. Once the product is released to the warehouse it goes into a Quality Assurance Hold area. Our Quality Assurance technicians sample the product and send it to a Government Certified Laboratory for Microbiological testing. Every sample is tested for known pathogens: Salmonella, Listeria, Clostridium, and Enterobacteriaceae which includes E. Coli and other Coliforms.

6. Where are your diets produced and manufactured? Can this plant be visited?
Our diets are produced and manufactured in our own facility in Morinville, Alberta, Canada. Yes this plant can be visited.

7. Can you provide a complete product nutrient analysis of your best selling canine and feline pet food including digestibility values?
A complete nutritional analysis of each of our diets are listed on our website

8. Can you give me the caloric value per can or cup of your diets?
The caloric content of our diets vary between diets and are all listed on our website


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Miss Bugs said:


> ya, meeting the nutrient profiles doesnt mean a darn thing lol


It's at least a step, that statement is not the only thing I would rely on when determining a food and it could be found on the bag or website alone. I think I prefer a feeding trial, at least it shows if the animal would eat it and if it can be sustained on the diet. I would like to see more testing then just this though, this is the reason I've always preferred a veterinary based diet but I want my dogs to look and feel their best. 

I modified the question about nutrient analysis that I asked, because a lot of companies seem to think the guarenteed anlysis is enough information it is and it isn't. I want to know the digestability of each of those ingredients, their quality, biological value etc. 

Tonight I'm going through each diet to determine protein, fat, carbs, ash etc. all on a dry matter basis to compare them as well. 

Still no word from any companies. I will post them if I do hear back from them.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

WestieLove said:


> It's at least a step, that statement is not the only thing I would rely on when determining a food and it could be found on the bag or website alone. I think I prefer a feeding trial, at least it shows if the animal would eat it and if it can be sustained on the diet. I would like to see more testing then just this though, this is the reason I've always preferred a veterinary based diet but I want my dogs to look and feel their best.
> 
> I modified the question about nutrient analysis that I asked, because a lot of companies seem to think the guarenteed anlysis is enough information it is and it isn't. I want to know the digestability of each of those ingredients, their quality, biological value etc.
> 
> ...


This is from the Natures Variety Company. I must say I am impressed with their immediate response. This is what they responded with. I think I may get in contact with their veterinary nutritionist for some additional questions regarding a couple specific products. 

Veterinary Nutritionist- Yes, we do have a veterinary nutritionist on staff. You can reach us by email ([email protected]) or phone (888-519-7387) and we can answer any questions you may have or we can put you in contact with the correct person.

Diet Formulation - The formulation of our diets is a collaborative effort between our Nutrition Council composed of veterinarians and our Research and Development Team.

Feeding Trials/AAFCO Nutritional Requirements- Because raw diets are a fairly new concept in relation to commercial diets, we underwent actual feeding trials to prove that our raw diets meet AAFCO requirements for balanced nutrition. However, our kibble and canned diets are formulated to meet or exceed all AAFCO nutrient requirements for all life stages. 

Testing/Quality/Safety- With all of our products, we utilize robust systems to ensure the quality and safety of our foods. Our quality control and quality assurance programs include but are not limited to:
· Sanitation Standard Operating Procedures (SSOP’s) 

· Good Manufacturing Practices (GMP’s) 

· A Hazard Analysis & Critical Control Points (HACCP) program 

· Lot segregation 

· Other human food industry best practices

· High Pressure Processing (HPP)

Manufacturing/Plant - All of our products are manufactured in the U.S., but our plant is not open to the public.

Nutritional Information/Digestibility- All nutritional information, including calorie content, is available on our website at http://www.naturesvariety.com/products/dog. Just select a particular product, and then choose a specific protein to "read more about this product." The digestibility of our Instinct Raw Diets is 98%, the digestibility of our Instinct Cans is 92-93%, and the digestibility of our Instinct Kibble is 87-89%.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

wow, do you ask questions to all food companies you get food from too???
I am all for good nutrition for my dog, but i would never put that much thought into it. I want a company with a good reputation, good ingredients and my dogs have to do good on it...thats all. 
sorry, useless comment but i am impressed and a little confused at the same time (side note: i love my fromm dog food...and so do the dogs)


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Salina said:


> wow, do you ask questions to all food companies you get food from too???
> I am all for good nutrition for my dog, but i would never put that much thought into it. I want a company with a good reputation, good ingredients and my dogs have to do good on it...thats all.
> sorry, useless comment but i am impressed and a little confused at the same time (side note: i love my fromm dog food...and so do the dogs)


I'm not offended at all  I am certainly willing to explain and maybe it'll help you understand. 

I can't say I go as overboard with my own diet as I do my dogs but I do know where my food comes from so I know its quality and handling. I have even worked in a few factories of the big names so I feel comfortable about the companies, I don't have a problem with the products with the knowledge I have of them. The reason I'm invesitagting so much is because as a veterinary technician I am use to feeding diets from companies that I know this information from and diets that have been proven beyond the AAFCO testing. Because of a lot of the pet food recalls I see with these smaller companies and diets I want to know more about the company and their quality control, testing done in addition to AAFCO testing, digestability information etc. I have two dogs that I'm trying to feed, both with food allergies and one with possible illness (still in the testing phase, no diagnosis yet) so I don't feel comfortable feeding a diet from a company that has a lot of recalls or the potential for a lot of recalls with a lack of quality control in place. I won't know how well my dogs do on it until we try it, but this is my way of ensuring I'm using a product from a company I can trust. Take Taste of The Wild for example, I wonder if they would respond to these questions? Are they willing to share this information and put you in touch with a veterinary nutritionist? Their reputations seems to have gone downhill since their massive recall, to me it's just not enough to go based on personal experience because before the recall it was considered "amazing" ... What about the company of the diet you feed, would they share this information? 

This is what Royal Canin responded with this set of questions (they were written up by a veterinary nutritionist) and they are not holding back in their response. Their prices are high but I think that reflects all the testing and quality control behind the products and for this reason I would feed it. Breed specific diets may be a gimmic but it's a company I trust due to the work behind the product. So why aren't these other smaller natural/holistic companies willing to give this information? What are they hiding? Sometimes it just makes you think. I want to know where my food is coming from, well I want to know where my dogs food is coming from considering I can't make it myself at home. 



> Royal Canin
> 
> 1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
> Royal Canin is a worldwide company providing diets to pets in 91 countries with 12 manufacturing facilities situated throughout the globe.
> ...


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I think it's just a matter of going more in depth and a kind of marketing honestly. Sure, RC gave you more professional sounding replies, but bottom line their food is still crap. The more professional replies make you want to trust them, but I would never feed their food.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Took a look today ... the Natures Variety kibbles are not sold here, just the actual frozen raw stuff in chicken and beef. Something I don't really think my dogs will go for (had an experience with someone trying to offer them raw meat - they were all like "ew what IS that? -turns nose away-" Although they said they would look into it for me if I'd like. 

Still waiting to hear back from other companies.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I am not sure it's fair to call RC crap. I am disappointed in Champion lately to be honest. Very few dog food companies I trust. You'd be surprised at a lot of companies answers to those types of questions... extremely too vague for my liking, and simply having an unnamed 'nutritionist' on board doesn't give me validity in their product. Lots of people can call themselves a nutritionist. 

Fromm is definitely my #1, but they don't have a lamb-based food specifically. But have you looked into any of their formulas? Also, if you want something simple, take a look at California Natural's grain-frees... I know their owned by P&G, but I personally don't care much about that. They seem to have adequate trials and testing done, and they list ALL the stats to their food, etc, etc....

Jackson is not big on fishy foods however he loved Fromm Surf and Turf. Their beef flavor was like crack to him! No chicken at all in that formula. He's eating Game Bird now.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

So I picked up a bag of the Natures Variety Instinct Duck & Turkey kibble (not with the freeze dried raw bits) ... apart from straight frozen raw diets by this company this was all the store sold. They are looking into the raw boost formula for me to see if they can get it. 

http://www.naturesvariety.com/Instinct/dog/kibble/duck

So far I have only started Lily on this as McDuff is still solving some medical issues. She seems to like it, I am doing a very slow mix and she picks it out and leaves her old food. Hoping I don't have a sick puppy on my hands! Hopefully Duff feels the same way about it. Neither of them have had duck/turkey before. 

Once we do a slow switch, I may try changing up their formulas now and then... so they don't get sick of one thing. I haven't quite made the full move to buy the frozen raw stuff yet. 

I will keep the updates coming. Tonight was day 1 of the switch and she spent the afternoon at the groomer's so... she may have just been very hungry.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I really don't think it is fair to compare the tests that large, multi-national corporations can do compared to small, family owned operations. Personally, I trust Champion and its sources... probably because they buy their ingredients from a lot of the same places that I buy my food. I was disappointed that ACANA went up, and I too, was not impressed with their new formula (Snowball loved it but his tummy didn't). Orijen on the other hand... I think its a fantastic food, but that's also reflected in the price.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Update: Lily is loving the natures variety... she gobbles it right up and the only other food she did that with was the Royal Canin mini line. 

The not so great side... soft very loose stools. The transition is 1/4 new food and 3/4 old food split into two meals. I backed off on the amount of new food today. We're also adding Forti Flora to her meals to help firm things up. Hopefully that will help otherwise I will be trying the canned pumpkin trick. If there is no improvement, or soft/loose stools when we stop the forti flora then its not a diet that's going to work for her so we'll have to try something else.

We did an abdominal x-ray tonight at the clinic (because she likes to eat things she shouldn't) and she defiantly needs to poop, a lot! but no foreign bodies. Woo! 

This is the reason I am switching one dog at a time, I can't handle two dogs with GI upset at once! That's a lot of trips outside. 

For those that are curious, these are the responses from the other two companies. 

Champion Pet Foods:


> 1. Do you have a Veterinary Nutritionist or some equivalent on staff in your company? Are they available for consultation or questions?
> We have two veterinary consultants (DVM/DABT), one companion animal nutritionist (MSc) and numerous others with years of experience with animal feed and formulation. The nutritionists are full time employees and are available for questions.
> 
> 2. Who formulates your diets and what are their credentials?
> ...


Petcurean


> Our foods are formulated in Elmira Ontario, by a qualified nutrition who has a M.Sc., Masters of Science – Animal Nutrition, University of Guelph B.Sc, Bachelor of Science, Animal Science and Animal Biology major, University of Guelph. Veterinary Nutritionists are employed by companies who are making prescription diets that may or may not meet AAFCO requirements, as they are designed for medical issues. I have attached an info sheet above. As well I do most of the diet recommendations from a veterinary/client perspective for our diets that do match particular nutrient requirements or perspectives.
> 
> We approach the quality and safety of our pet foods with utmost care and we set extremely high quality and safety standards for ourselves and all of our suppliers and partners. Our ingredient suppliers are USDA/CFIA inspected and Petcurean products are manufactured at plants which are EU, FDA and CFIA certified, meaning they must meet a very high standard of sanitation, cleanliness and manufacturing practices. Our unique recipes are crafted using the highest quality fit for human consumption ingredients. Other plant safeguards include:
> 
> ...


... and sine Lily is starting to smell awful again, we're going to go make a trip outside for another poop. Wish us luck! but this has been a big eye opener that maybe these diets aren't so bad as we're taught in veterinary medicine.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I would ditch the Forti Flora (the vet one right) and just get pumpkin. If you look at the ingredients it's disgusting.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Opinion noted, but its a product I am using short-term and its tasty to her. It's also working - for this reason I will continue using it. It was something I had readily available to me to use for a couple days (who wants to go grocery shopping after working 14 hours? lol) to provide her relief. 

I think sometimes people get too crazy over the quality of ingredients. When I run out of packets and have gotten sleep, we will try canned pumpkin because its closer for me to go to the grocery store then to work but I am not going to loose sleep over it because its so short-term. It's honestly not going to kill her...


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Another couple of kibbles to consider are *Earthborn Meadow Feast *(http://www.earthbornholisticpetfood.com/us/dog_formulas/meadow_feast/) and *Nutrisource Lamb Meal Formula *(http://www.nutrisourcedogfood.com/nutrisource/products/gf_lamb). 

Sometimes the peas in the no potato formulas cause more pooing. This is true with my boxer. I have him on a probiotic that I saw on Dr. Karen Becker's website (a holistic vet). I get it at Vitamin Shoppe (in their pet section) locally, b/c it's cheaper. It's called Complete Probiotics For Pets, distributed by Mercola Health Resources, LLC. It works well for my boxer, Dempsey, who can have an iffy stomach sometimes. It also lasts for awhile, and should last much longer for your westie.

I know it's hard, but give the kibble some time before ditching it. It takes awhile sometimes for the dog's system to adjust to a really different kibble. Maddie and Potsie tend to adjust fast, but Dempsey takes awhile before his tummy settles down, when I've changed kibbles.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Those two would be out for me because I cannot buy them locally. I always had issues ordering things online in the past so that's why I want to stay away from doing that. I don't want to find myself in a situation wiht my dogs food. 

We're going to give it a fair chance to see if her system will settle down, I'm not ready to toss it just yet because Lily seems to like it so much. I want to give her system a fighting chance to adjust. The probiotic supplement I picked up at work will help her system out a little too. I just couldn't deal with two diarrhea dogs at the same time. 

She wasn't too interested in this mornings meal, ate about half. We'll see how it goes!


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Update: 

As much as Lily loves the food, I am planning to switch her off the food. There are too many cons to feeding her this diet that I feel its worth it; it gives her awful flatulence, its very expensive ($7.30/kg plus tax for 11.5kg bag) and its a special order & a fight for the store to get. I understand fully that you get what you pay for but I cannot afford to keep two dogs plus fosters that come and go on this diet. The two small dogs alone are eating through my bank account quickly. 

I am going to try to find a small bag of Acana Grasslands or Fromm Gold Adult dog food before the holidays to try. Otherwise, after the holidays I will be switching back to what we were using. 

Kudos to the people who can afford that diet but that and others like it are way too expensive here to be feeding multiple dogs on.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

Thats why i feed TOTW right now, in rotation with fromm. I would like to feed acana, but cant afford it right now.


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

Just so you know Performatrin now carries a grain free variety:

Ingredients are as follows:

Deboned Turkey, Turkey meal, Salmon meal, Duck meal, Potatoes, Peas, Chicken fat stabilized with mixed Tocopherols (natural vitamin E source), Vegetable Pomace (Tomato, Carrot, Celery, Beet, Parsley, lettuce, watercress, spinach), Natural flavor, cultured yeast, whole sweet potatoes, pumpkin, whole cranberries, whole blueberries, Sea Salt, Chicory Root Extract, Lecithin, Choline Chloride, Alfalfa Juice Concentrate, Dried Kelp, fresh spinach, fresh whole blackberries, Dried yeast, Taurine, Rosemary extract, Marigold extract, Yucca schidigera extract, Spirulina, Green tea extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Ascorbyl Polyphosphate (vitamin c), Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Bifidobacterium bifidium, Streptococcus Faecium, Zinc Proteinate (source of chelated zinc), Iron Proteinate (chelated iron), Copper proteinate (Chelated Copper), Vitamin A supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Hydrochloride, riboflavin, Vitamin D3 supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine hydrochloride, Inositol, vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid, Biotin, Calcium Iodide, Selenium yeast (source of organic selenium).

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein: min. 37%
Crude Fat: min. 16%
Crude Fiber: min. 3%
Moisture: max. 10%
Vitamin E: min. 150 IU/kg
Vitamin C: min. 50mg/kg
Lutein: min. 5mg/kg
Omega-6 fatty acids: min. 2.8%
Omega-3 fatty acids: min. .60%
DHA: min. .20%
Glucosamine Hydrochloride: min. 150mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate: min 50mg/kg
Live Lactic acid producing Micro organisms
( L. Acidophilus, L. Casei, S. Faecium): min. 250 million CFU/kg

Calorie Content:
Metabolized Energy as fed ( calculated)
3770 kcal/kg.......432kcal/8 fl oz cup


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## rmpsbuttercup (Dec 21, 2012)

Since you're in Canada, I would definitely recommend Canine Medical/Royal Canine. The Medical company was formed by a vet from OVC who was really concerned about the poor quality of dog food that was available at the time. They are constantly doing research on their foods to make sure that they address the needs of pets with nearly every food issue imaginable. And, the food is made in Ontario where food ingredient definitions are much stricter than American food ingredient definitions. Plus, if you buy a bag and find that your dog doesn't like it, or it disagrees with your pet, then you can take it back for a refund. 

Remember the pet food recall of ... when was that ... 2007? You could start by eliminating all companies that were buying in the cheapest products available. Who knows, they probably have the same management philosophy.

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/newpetfoodrecalls/

I'd recommend that you start with Canine Medical/RC Hypoallergetic formula. If your dog has seasonal allergies, then the food might not make much difference. If he has food allergies, then you might want to get him tested so that you are fully informed about what he's allergic to before you waste a lot of money on kangaroo formulations and such. A food allergy screen would cost a couple hundred dollars, but might save you money in the long term.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Royal Canin IS one of the poor-quality dog foods (mid-tier at best). It's better than grocery store stuff, but even the vet formulas are still not highly rated on the dog food analysis sites. Many formulas are full of grain and beet pulp; even that select protein one isn't great.


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## rmpsbuttercup (Dec 21, 2012)

Royal Canin in the US is a much different pet food formulation than in Canada. There are several reasons, but the most compelling is that Royal Canin in Canada, bought Medi-Cal Veterinary Diets a few years ago. Medi-Cal was the Canadian gold standard. It was a pet food company launched by four or five veterinarians from the University of Guelph in the '90s, who worked closely with vets all across the province and ended up with a very successful product. They won awards from the Canadian Animal Health Industry. One of the vets received the top award ever given by the Ontario Veterinary College. 

Medi-Cal's formulations have set the standard for Royal Canin in Canada ... at least, so far. This could change if RC gets away with making changes. However, the vets across the province are keeping an eye on it. Will RC take the chance of losing that endorsement? 

When I clicked on the links that boxerlover provided, I hardly recognised the product - it's quite different than the Canadian dog food that comes in a bag that looks pretty much the same. 

So ... I still recommend Royal Canin/Medi-Cal, but only if you buy it in Canada.


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## crscorpio89 (Dec 19, 2012)

I found with my Toy Fox Terrier the RAW diet is the way to go. It is the only way i can control what goes into his food. If you do not have any luck with the previously suggested foods. Give the RAW diet a try for a month or two. I think you will be surprised how well it works. Do some research on it and go with your gut. I was very hessistant to try it myself but it was the only option i had left. I would never feed any dog or cat shelf food agian.


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

rmpsbuttercup said:


> Royal Canin in the US is a much different pet food formulation than in Canada. There are several reasons, but the most compelling is that Royal Canin in Canada, bought Medi-Cal Veterinary Diets a few years ago. Medi-Cal was the Canadian gold standard. It was a pet food company launched by four or five veterinarians from the University of Guelph in the '90s, who worked closely with vets all across the province and ended up with a very successful product. They won awards from the Canadian Animal Health Industry. One of the vets received the top award ever given by the Ontario Veterinary College.
> 
> Medi-Cal's formulations have set the standard for Royal Canin in Canada ... at least, so far. This could change if RC gets away with making changes. However, the vets across the province are keeping an eye on it. Will RC take the chance of losing that endorsement?
> 
> ...


Although formulation of products between the two do appear to be vastly different and foods such as these do have their place, can't speak for Op, but I personally, still would not feel comfortable with feeding such a grain heavy food to my animals, unless I have exhausted all other options. Especially, considering my own dogs are so sensitive..


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Performatin is a no-go with either dog, they won't touch it and there is only so long you can let small dogs go without eating. 
RAW is not an option for me. Its a cost and space issue, more space then anything (small apartment) 

I tried looking for a bag of the Acana and Fromm (the formula I can order in large bags though our veterinary clinic) and no-go. 

Since medi-cal was bought out by Royal Canin the formulas have changed slightly and some veterinarians locally question if its the same quality as it use to be and are hestitant to continue selling it as a result. I know a lot of people on here use the dog food advisor websites that rate foods, but until those individuals have more education in nutrition apart from what they read off the internet - I don't fallow them. I prefer to consult with veterinary nutrition specialists or a veterinary technician nutrition specialist. I am actually pro-feeding Royal Canin, depending on the formula. 

Its my male Westie that has food allergies (to wheat and chicken) and previously I fed him Purina Veterinary Diets Dermatological management so he would be back on that. 
My female Westie has possible seasonal allergies, nothing food related as we've recently determined. Our cold weather and snow hit and she is less itchy so... seasonal! since she's been on an alternative protein and grain-free food for months now with no change/improvement. Grains are not her problem. I am going to try to get her on the PVD DRM as well, which is a fairly reasonable diet IMO. I have considered Royal Canin Adult small breed (veterinary) if she won't take to a salmon protein diet. 

This is assuming I cannot find a consistent source for the Natures Variety that's more affordable in the next couple weeks because I will be officially running low of food after the holidays. Our biggest problem is actually getting the Natures Variety as our pet food store never got the bag I ordered in.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Being totally honest, talking to a vet or vet tech about nutrition will get you nowhere. Their nutrition classes are funded by Hill's, Royal Canine, and the like. They're told to like that food and often get a kick back on the sale of each bag.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Considering I am a veterinary technician.... yes they make a small profit off food like any other store or website (called mark-up) because they are a business and need to make money but they do not make money for liking a specific brand of food. No clinic I have worked for has anyway. My nurtiriton class as a technician was not funded by any specific company and did not focus on one specific brand. Each veterinary college is also different in terms of what/how many nutrition courses it offers - so you can't judge all veterinary colleges based on one. Some they are mandatory, others they are elective. It all depends where and what program. We had non-mandatory talks by companies and there was good information in them but they weren't overly pushing their products, the information I got from those talks has helped me compare diets as a whole. 

When I say consulting with a veterinary nutritionist specialist or veterinary technician nutritionist, I am talking about a veterinarian or veterinary technician that has specialized in nutrition beyond veterinary or veterinary technician programs (so beyond general practice). For technicians its a time consuming process to achieve (trying to accomplish it myself) so I imagine its not any easier for veterinarians to achieve that speciality status. Yes, these individuals I would trust because they are going to have a non-biased education to specialize and be able to balance diets, formulate diets for medical conditions, complex/critical care cases etc. 

I would rather trust them then a non-educated individual making a dog food analysis website or a pet store employee. The most these people have is whatever gets taught to them when they are hired or whatever information they get online - which is also biased. General practicioners can give good advice from time to time but for medical conditions, complex cases etc. I would rather consult with a veterinary nutrition specialist and for my pets personally because I am a nutrition freak, I consult with the veterinary nutrition specialist because I want what is best for my pets with what is available to me and with what is within my limits with my life style and budget. 

Members need to understand there is a difference between a general practitioner and specialist in veterinary medicine. Just as there is in human medicine. Its extra education specializing in that field.


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## rmpsbuttercup (Dec 21, 2012)

boxerlover876 said:


> Being totally honest, talking to a vet or vet tech about nutrition will get you nowhere. Their nutrition classes are funded by Hill's, Royal Canine, and the like. They're told to like that food and often get a kick back on the sale of each bag.


Good Grief! I'm horrified to see veterinarians and vet tech's brushed off so lightly. Not only do vets receive specialized university training, but they also see a constant lineup of every imaginable kind of nutritional issue at every stage in a pet's life, and they are called upon to resolve the issues. Lab tests to track nutritional imbalances are a daily occurrance. It's all in a day's work to know about the right food. What good could possibly come of receiving
kickbacks from selling low quality food if clients are unsatisfied with their pet's nutritional care?

Frankly, most vet offices have so little shelf space for pet food that they sell only the brand that serves the needs of their clients' pets best. 

I'm curious to know whom you *do* trust for nutritional information?


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I do trust certain vets. Holistic vets and open minded vets for example when it comes to nutrition. I won't listen to the vets telling me Iams, Hill's, Purina, Eukanuba or the like are good.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Most people around here trust websites such as the dog food advisor which is created by a human dentist with NO formal animal nutrition education. It's a source I will not trust for the lack of actual education in animal nutrition. 

I appreciate the input everyone made to this thread but due to current circumstances I am going to stick with options available to me through our veterinary clinic. I may have a source for the Natures Variety that's a little more affordable but right now its debatable about getting the duck/turkey formula ... so we have enough to get us over the next 2-3 weeks before we need to start switching. So if this doesn't work out, Lily will be on Royal Canin Adult (vet care line). Our back-up plan is Purina Vet Diet's DRM or Royal Canin Hypoallergenic, both McDuff will eat. If Lily still vomits chicken then I know as long as I stick with duck I know we should be fine

Honestly, they are diets I will feed. I do not consider them such low quality as other members of this forum do. Yes, I would love my dogs to have more meat and an alternative carb source because they are a breed known for allergies. I know Westie breeders who only feed either Royal Canin or Hills Healthy Advantage and the dogs are perfectly healthy regardless of the breeds "known for allergies" trait.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

WestieLove said:


> Most people around here trust websites such as the dog food advisor which is created by a human dentist with NO formal animal nutrition education. It's a source I will not trust for the lack of actual education in animal nutrition.
> 
> I appreciate the input everyone made to this thread but due to current circumstances I am going to stick with options available to me through our veterinary clinic. I may have a source for the Natures Variety that's a little more affordable but right now its debatable about getting the duck/turkey formula ... so we have enough to get us over the next 2-3 weeks before we need to start switching. So if this doesn't work out, Lily will be on Royal Canin Adult (vet care line). Our back-up plan is Purina Vet Diet's DRM or Royal Canin Hypoallergenic, both McDuff will eat. If Lily still vomits chicken then I know as long as I stick with duck I know we should be fine
> 
> ...


My main issue with all those foods are that they are so overpriced. U pay a lot of money for a bag of fillers. Makes no sense. 

I dont believe everything thats on doogfoodadvisor either. Would i feed every five star food there? Not at all! But i am not willing to pay a lot of money for a bag of low quality ingredients.


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## mobymag (Dec 6, 2008)

This has been a helpful resource for me: http://petcareeducation.com/dogfoodreviews/ for what it's worth. Be wary of any food made by parent company, Diamond Foods, as they have had numerous recalls for the many different brands (even "holistic") brands manufactured in the Diamond plants.


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## rmpsbuttercup (Dec 21, 2012)

boxerlover876 said:


> I do trust certain vets. Holistic vets and open minded vets for example when it comes to nutrition. I won't listen to the vets telling me Iams, Hill's, Purina, Eukanuba or the like are good.


Well, don't brush the vets all off with a single stroke simply for recommending any of the above. Sometimes clients have already determined the pet food company that they will buy and the vet might recommend another type of food from the same company - eg Iams lite instead of the Iams regular that they are currently feeding their dog. It's more likely that the owner will switch within a brand than start with another brand.

Hills has some pretty good options for pets with special needs. What other company has formulated a diet that will dissolve kidney/bladder stones more effectively than SD? Hills TD is simply a marvel for keeping teeth clean.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

WestieLove said:


> Most people around here trust websites such as the dog food advisor which is created by a human dentist with NO formal animal nutrition education. It's a source I will not trust for the lack of actual education in animal nutrition.


I think dog food advisor is a great resource, but its not the be-all-end-all. Most people can barely navigate their OWN nutrition properly, let alone proper nutrition for another species, and DFA gives a quick and dirty breakdown of what is in different foods. I don't think anyone on here would say "pick a food solely based on its Dog Food Advisor rating", but it is a helpful tool with useful information about different ingredients, why they are bad (or not), nutritional content, and what the numbers on the bag actually mean. The fact is, there is a lot more that goes in to why people choose certain dog foods than the rating it gets on a(ny) website. 

Vets are not dog (or cat, or hamster) nutritional experts, and their pet nutrition education is often times sponsored by Iams, Eukanuba, Purina, etc. Just like human doctors typically aren't experts in human nutrition. Having a formal education does not always equate to being educated. If you can read and understand academic literature, there is no reason why a dentist who's done his research properly couldn't be just as or more knowledgeable than a vet in the academic realm of pet nutrition.

People say it time and time again - you have to feed what works for your dogs. If they do best on Purina, then by all means feed Purina, but that doesn't make it a good food. (Metaphorically, not actually - I know OP doesn't feed Purina).


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## mobymag (Dec 6, 2008)

"Perfectly healthy", until they're not, which would be sooner rather than later with a diet that's not species appropriate and of poor quality ingredients. It's accumulative and until the actual symptoms appear, they seem "perfectly healthy". This is how disease develops.


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## nighthawk17 (Jan 23, 2012)

See the thing is I have looked through multiple threads and ratings and whatever to find the perfect food. I have two huskies that are very picky on what they eat and it took me forever to find the right food. At first one only ate blue but was expensive thing was half way through the bag he got bored and would stop eating it. My other one wouldn't touch it. After experimenting with almost 8 different types of food (don't use the cheap kinds with all the fillers) I found something they both will eat and is very good for them. I did some mixing of foods to keep it interesting for them which can get expensive buying two 60$ bags but they love it and keep going for more. Sometimes adding in a little peanut butter or wet dog food and mixing it. Honestly it just depends on your dog what they want to eat and what your willing to pay for. I finally got them to one type of food which is really nice. Let me know if you have questions. I've done a ton if research on this lol


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

rmpsbuttercup said:


> Well, don't brush the vets all off with a single stroke simply for recommending any of the above. Sometimes clients have already determined the pet food company that they will buy and the vet might recommend another type of food from the same company - eg Iams lite instead of the Iams regular that they are currently feeding their dog. It's more likely that the owner will switch within a brand than start with another brand.
> 
> Hills has some pretty good options for pets with special needs. What other company has formulated a diet that will dissolve kidney/bladder stones more effectively than SD? Hills TD is simply a marvel for keeping teeth clean.


Any kibble that has plastic in it will never be marvelous to me. Lots of homecooked diets or supplements can do the same as Hill's diets with much better ingredients and lower costs. For example, supplementing potassium citrate can help with dissolving calcium oxalate stones. Calcium citrate can also be helpful. These are both in the Hill's kidney formula if I remember correctly. 

I feel like you're more defensive because you run a vet hospital that probably carries these brands.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

rmpsbuttercup said:


> Hills TD is simply a marvel for keeping teeth clean.


I would imagine a diet of hay and plaster would also keep your dog's teeth clean. Or, you know, brushing your dog's teeth does that too. Regardless of who you work for or what you think of Hill's, choosing your dog's whole diet based on tooth cleaning ability is a little absurd.


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