# Dog peeing on things only when I'm gone?



## Huskypup (Apr 19, 2013)

I recently came into possession of an old husky mix when a family member passed away. He has been a real handful to deal with. He is markings things when I am away. It is a strange combination because around me he acts very submissive. Submissive posture, attitude, etc., but when outside he acts very territorial (peeing on everything). He was an outdoor dog for a long time, but I do not want him to live the rest of his life that way. I want him to be indoors with me.

My first thought was that he is unfixed. I want to get him fixed but I've been reading a lot of mixed reviews. He is 10 years old. Is this still a safe age to get a dog fixed?

I would also like to avoid crate training. I am quite surprised that this is all I seem to get when I try to find this problem. Is the only answer in the entire world really to just lock the dog up? That seems more like a preventative measure than a solution, and I am looking for a solution.



The frustrating part is, I am with this dog all day every day. He is an angel at night, and when I am away. He gets into nothing, he is well behaved, I've taught him some tricks, and he naps a lot. He is walked two or three hours a day. I go out shopping maybe once or twice a week, and that is when problems arise. He will never, ever mark when I am home.

I use the word "mark" because he goes out of the way to do this. He'll mark everything, and even climb up on my bed and pee on that! I am going insane trying to disinfect everything. If it is anxiety, would he really still go so far out of his way to get everything he possibly can?


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

How recently did you acquire this dog? It's not surprise to me that he does this when you're not home, I'm sure he's been corrected sometime in the past for marking in the house and associates not marking with a human presence. Your house does not smell like "dog" and he's remedying this. 

Personally, I would not be in a big hurry to get a dog fixed at that age, and if he's been practicing marking behaviors for 10 years that is an ingrained behavior that I seriously doubt fixing him will do anything for this issue. 

Lucas was an outside dog before I got him, and his main job on the ranch was to keep coyotes of the property. Do you know how he mainly did this? Marking the boundaries of the property. It's what outdoor dogs do. One of this dog's favorite activities is to mark things on walks. Fixing him did not help this because even after the hormones died down he'd practiced this behavior so long before he got fixed it became something he does. He does not mark in the house, but he is very sensitive to correction and basically all it took for him to not mark in the house is a horrified look on my face when I first saw him do it and moving in his direction and he instantly stopped and never did it again. But he's crated in the house when I am gone and I don't feel one bit badly about it and neither does he. His crate signals relaxation to him, he's perfectly comfortable in there. 

I know you've probably read about crate training, and that it is not cruel and unusual punishment, that most dogs come to love their crates. I really think crate training is your best bet here, and it's certainly less cruel than him being re-homed again at his age (if he even can be-it's hard to find seniors a home) if you get to that point of frustration with this one behavior, when a fairly simple management tool like a crate was the solution.


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## Huskypup (Apr 19, 2013)

I've had this dog for about a month and a half now. He has been very well behaved the whole time when I'm around, which is almost constantly. I work at home and am thus able to keep an eye on him constantly and he does not even try to hike his leg while I'm here.

I certainly do not plan to rehome this dog, he is here to stay, problems or not. I cared a lot about his previous owner and I would not want to put an animal they loved into uncertain hands.

The issue with creates for me is not about rather they are cruel or enjoyable for the dog (I have no 'moral' objections to them), it is about fixing the underlying issue. To me a crate is like a muzzle for an aggressive dog. It stops them from doing what you don't want them to do, but I'd like him to be trained in this regard if it is possible. I don't just want to prevent the issue, I want to find a way to correct it. I'm just not sure how to teach a dog not to do something when you're not there to catch them in the act. I live on my own so I can't have others 'spy' on him for me. I'd like to exhaust all real training possibilities before I simply surrender to a preventative measure. Even if this particular issue can be 'fixed' by crating, I think it's important for me to learn these things for future reference as well.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

It is REALLY tough to fix the underlying cause of an issue a dog only does when no one is around. You're not there to interrupt the behavior, redirect, or teach an alternate behavior. In addition, this dog is 10 years old, so if he's been doing this behavior that long, it's been very deeply reinforced for a very, very long time. It's easier to teach an old dog new tricks, like learning to enjoy a crate, than it is to break bad habits that have been built over a lifetime. Personally, I'd opt for crate training him and enjoying your time together.

There are things called "belly bands" that help stop dogs from marking, but there again, they don't change the behavior...they just keep the dog from being able to do it while the band is on. In addition, I'm betting he'd be smart enough to get it off while you 're not home.

Sometimes you have to pick your battles and decide if this is one you'd like to fight.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

I commend you for your commitment to this dog and your love for his previous owner. He is a lucky senior, not everyone would take him in. 

Just to clarify, management goes hand in hand with training, it's a huge part of training. That's what leashes are, preventing dogs from running off before they are well trained enough to solid heel and recall, that is why we puppy proof our homes with pups and keep shoes and socks put away so they don't choke, it's why we don't leave our food on the counter tops in reach of dogs when we go out, unless we're really good at having taught a default "leave it." Management is part of dog ownership. Your muzzle is a great example of management, keeping the dog from biting and having that bite history following them around for forever until that day when they are no longer at risk of biting through behavior modification. It's also why when training a dog we set up training scenarios that allow for the dog to be successful, that's management too. Try not to look at it as a "bandaid" but as part of training and how dogs learn. Without it dogs would be 1) allowed to practice behaviors we don't want, and the more the dog practices a behavior the stronger that behavior gets and 2) be set up for failure and we would constantly be correcting things _after_ they happen which the dog never learns what we want them to do instead of the behavior they are using. Not very effective. 

Your understanding of the difficulty of this is exactly right, how to train a dog not to do something when you are not there is difficult. Normally this takes teaching a "default" behavior. Say for example I want to train a dog to not get that food off the countertop when I'm gone, I have to create a wide variety of scenarios where I teach the dog to leave food and make it more reinforcing for the dog to never eat the food left around than to eat it, so the dog is conditioned to feel it is never ultimately in his best interest to eat food left anywhere, whether I'm there or not. How do you do this with peeing on things? 

I don't know. I hope someone can come along and answer this for you because I don't see how to do it. You're sure this behavior is marking, and not a potty training or UTI issue?


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## Huskypup (Apr 19, 2013)

I do understand that management is part of training, but that is where I'm having trouble. Management is something I'd be much more keen on if it went hand in hand with training, but I'm having trouble finding where to 'train'. It makes a lot of sense to have a dog muzzled while you're socializing it, but crate training isn't 'teaching' the dog anything about the behavior from what I understand? If I am missing the point, please explain. 

The Belly Bands look intriguing, but I am a little confused by how they'd 'stay on'. It seems like he could just scratch them off with his back foot? or at least scratch them out of the way. My biggest concern here though is causing him much discomfort or sanitation issues. What if he still tried? Would he just pee all over himself? Or does it stop him from peeing at all? I'd be worried about him being in that kind of condition while I'm not there to watch over him.

Yes, I am sure this is a behavioral issue, as far as I or the vet am able to determine. I took the dog in for the full works when I received him, since I have other dogs and, well, him being an outdoor dog I suspected he'd be riddled with parasites and stuff. He had no parasites that showed up from testing his feces. A urinalysis, blood panels, xrays on his abdomen and stomach, and ultrasounds all revealed him to be in tip-top shop (in fact, magnificent shape for his age, when it comes to his bone condition). If there are other tests that might show related issues please let me know and I will consult my vet about it.

Thank you everyone for your help and understanding. I know I am being a little stubborn, I just really feel strongly about trying to fix the behavior if it is at all possible. If something ever happened to me behavioral issues in the animals would make them even more unlikely to find homes. If I ever have to fly home to help family or something of the like, I do not want sitters to be burdened by a poorly behaved dog. In these unlikely scenarios behavioral problems can become worse when the animals are no longer in familiar company, but instead in the company of strangers. Fixing these problems can be a huge difference in the fate of an animal if something ever happens to its 'parent'.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

The only way the crate is part of training in this scenario is by keeping the dog from practicing the behavior. How ingrained a behavior becomes is based on it's reinforcement history, the more the behavior is practiced, and reinforced the more frequent the behavior becomes. This marking is a self-reinforcing behavior, which is harder to train out. The dog gets something out of the behavior so it is reinforcing, and so he continues to practice it . His lovely sent gets on things which is comforting to him because in his outdoor environment his sent was everywhere he wanted it to be, deterring strange dogs and such from entering his environment and giving him a sense of security, and job well done for protecting his property from invaders. Every single time he marks, and finds comfort in it the behavior is strengthened. By not being given the opportunity to mark he is not continuing to create a history of reinforcement for the behavior. Training really all about reinforcement history when it comes down to it. Dogs will continue to do things that are working for them and they get something out of, and will discontinue doing things they don't benefit from. So that's where the crate fits into the training part of it. Don't know if I explained that any better......

However, having said that I agree with packetsmom, because not being there when he does it you are unable to interrupt it, redirect it, or replace it with another behavior which is just as important as making sure its not being reinforced, and is necessary to teaching a default behavior (meaning the dog ALWAYS does _this_ instead of or when _this_. I can't think of a way to do what you want to do here and I do think it's probably behavioral and not medical if that's what the vet thinks. 

I know you would prefer to not crate, but as another member pointed out in a different thread crate training is also beneficial if the dog were ever needed to be boarded, or in certain scenarios with the vet.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

Have you tried leaving him with something special before you leave? A kong stuffed with peanut butter or canned dog food that has been frozen or a smoked beef bone for example? Give the kong or bone to him just before you leave and take it away when you get home. Maybe if he had something like that (and only got it when you are not home) his focus would be on the long lasting treat and marking the house won't occur to him. It might make sense to start by leaving for very short periods of time (1 minute) and gradually increase the amount of time that you are away. I'm not sure if this will work but it's worth a try.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

The belly band does not stop them from peeing, it just stops the pee from getting on things. I know some dogs will stop doing it while the belly band is on as it is uncomfortable to have a wet pad. If you don't want to crate is there a small room like a laundry or bathroom that you could put a bed in and confine him in a small area? At least he would not have access to your bed and other places to go and it would be easier clean-up. He may not mark in a small area that he has to stay in.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I use the crate and the belly bands for my markers. Yes ... two of them. :/ The belly bands may be good for some but not all dogs. One of mine does not go in his belly band ... and the other, Eddee just comes to me when his is wet and wants a fresh one.


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## Huskypup (Apr 19, 2013)

He has not previously been allowed on the bed while I'm here because ... well, it's a small bed and it's not big enough for the both of us! If it is about scent, would it work at all to start allowing him on the bed or would that only make matters worse? Although I know his fuzzy funk scent isn't the same as his urine scent.

The Kong Toy is definitely an idea. Do you know of any types you've had particularly good experience with? I have a friend who had to have a $4,000 surgery to have part of his pomeranians intestines removed because of part of a kong chew toy getting lodged in it. These toys are certainly popular, but I always refrained from getting them because of the fear of something similar happen. He enjoys raw hides, which color would be most comfortable for him, do you think? (He is a senior but has very good teeth and just crunches up most small chewables).

The only room he can really be locked in is the guest room, which also has a bed. Which I guess would be better than him messing my room, but the same results will probably crop up. Normally he is in my room because the cats and small dogs have free reign of the house (including bathroom cause kitties are toilet trained), and I do not yet fully trust him to be left alone with my small fuzzy critters unsupervised. He hasn't had a go at one of them yet but he was very food aggressive when I first got him (which has been rectified) and the old owner said it was not uncommon for him to kill opposums and the like. I've tried kiddy gates but I've found he can jump over both of the ones I have with relative ease.

Are the belly bands made of a non-absorption material on the outside? Or are they just fabric all the way through? I mean, if he 'wet himself' would he just get urine in every single place he laid down? My errand running takes almost as much time as a day at a full time job, so I'm a little wary of this option, but it seems like something that could teach him how unenjoyable it is when I'm away. I think I'd be inclined to try the distraction/chew first once I get some feedback on what would be best/safest for him. (Oh, and I forgot to mention- he eats raw hides in like ... 45 minutes, for the big ones- so they wouldn't quite work as distractions unless I give him a looooot of them)


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

I don't feed raw hides, they can swell inside a dog's intestine and cause the same surgery you mentioned. Any toy really _could_ have this risk. My fav, and my guys are heavy chewers are knuckles bones. LOVE LOVE LOVE knuckle bones, they are all natural, last forever, my dogs love them, good for the teeth. They gnaw them, so less chances of large pieces coming off, and they don't splinter like the long wise bones. Bones are very easily digestible for dogs, ask anyone who feeds their dogs a raw food diet. Still, always a chance of chocking, getting a sharp piece stuck in throat, risks with ANY chews, whether someone is right there or not.

EDITED TO ADD: It IS possible that once your house smells enough like him, he will stop marking. Apollo did this when I moved, but he'd not been a big marking dog before, and he's never done it again, so it wasn't an ingrained behavior, it was a response to a new environment only. I will hope this is the case for you......


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## Huskypup (Apr 19, 2013)

I suppose that is true. I will have to try a Kong Toy and see if that will keep him busy for long enough. Hopefully the smell is enticing enough for him to go for it. I was unaware raw hides would be much difference, considering they are also chewed into little pieces before being eaten. I will definitely be looking into the knuckle bones and seeing what we have available here.

In the mean time I've been thinking about the difficulties of training a dog while you're not there. I'm trying to find a friend that'll loan me their laptop for now, and if I can find someone that will, I'm going to set up a sting operation. Set up a web cam and wait outside while spying on the doggy. If he gets up on the bed or tries to mark anything I will pop in and reprimand him. Hopefully this has some success, if I can manage to catch him in the act.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

You'll have to be really careful about your timing, that's the trouble with this scenario. You'd have to catch the dog IN THE ACT, otherwise the dog will not connect what he is being corrected for. He'll associate the correction with pee on the wall or bed, not the act of peeing on it. I know it sounds dumb, but it's true, that's why timing in training is so important. If you catch him after the act he won't understand what he is being corrected for.......which you seem to know but worth reiterating. :yo:


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I really think your best option is going to be preventing him from practicing the undesired behavior (i.e., crating while you're away) and reinforcing heavily for the desired behavior. Setting up a sting operation can backfire in many ways. As Tyler said, he may think he's being reprimanded for being on the bed or in a specific room or simply for peeing itself, regardless of location.

Working to break the habit and make peeing outside the best thing ever really doesn't have many (any?) downsides. Breaking the habit is management and reinforcing appropriate elimination is the training.

Also, I'm sure you know this, but before leaving him with a special treat do a practice run. Give him a Kong or knuckle bone some day you're home and watch him. If he chews, but doesn't destroy or do anything else dangerous, let him have it when he's alone.

Good luck! I can't even imagine how frustrating this must be.


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## Huskypup (Apr 19, 2013)

I'm certainly not planning to jump out and scare him or anything absurd like that. I plan to apply the same basics of any house training- catching them in the act, telling them no, taking them outside, and praising them if they do it where they're supposed to. If this is going to be damaging could someone please explain how? I mean, it seems like the 'adverse effects' would be seen in any house training, puppy or habit based, otherwise?

My room is right by the front door/livingroom, so I should be able to catch him immediately if I'm out on the front porch. If I suspect that I won't be able to, I'll be sure to refrain.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

Long as you catch him in the act, which could be difficult if you are in another room, even if it takes 30 seconds to get there (I'd be timing it now honestly) if he's done in 15 seconds you can't correct it. It could be damaging and confusing, creating the wrong association depending on how sensitive he is to correction. For example Lucas is SO sensitive to correction that even a displeased look on my face crushes him and he offers all kinds of annoying appeasement behaviors, and dogs are so good at reading body language they know when you're frustrated. May be you don't have a "soft" dog, may be if you're timing's off you can truly stay very neutral about what he's done. Not saying it can't work, there's just those things to consider. I think it's very industrious. You certainly are a very determined person.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

Do you mind giving a general overview of how it addressed this particular problem? I'd be very curious to hear it, since I can't think of any easy way to do it and avoiding using harsh punishments.......


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Why does this scenario of laptop and webcam and hiding make more sense than simply crating for 3 hours a week? I could almost understand if he would have to be crated 10 hours a day, but you're talking about very minimal crating. 

I get the impression you want the perfect dog. There is no such thing. All dogs have their quirks, so we work around them. Just like we do with the people in our lives. Let it go, buy a crate and enjoy your new friend.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Can you get an x-pen (tall enough so he can't jump out) to put him in when you leave? It's not as confining as a crate. I also have a marker - my female westie mix. She only pees on things (usually my bed or a nice piece of furniture) when we leave. As a result, she is crated when we leave - I refuse to let a dog ruin the things I've worked so hard to obtain. She loves her crate b/c she gets a high value treat (stuffed Kong) only when she's crated. Dogs sleep most of the time anyway, so it's not cruel. The dogs get plenty of exercise when I'm home.

My rescued poodle marked when we first got him a couple of years ago. I put a belly band on him with an overnight feminine pad inside (to avoid having to wash the belly band so often). He stopped trying to mark after about a week, b/c he found out that he only peed on himself - lol! I kept the belly band after that, just in case...


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Huskypup said:


> I'm certainly not planning to jump out and scare him or anything absurd like that. *I plan to apply the same basics of any house training- catching them in the act, telling them no, taking them outside, and praising them if they do it where they're supposed to.* If this is going to be damaging could someone please explain how? I mean, it seems like the 'adverse effects' would be seen in any house training, puppy or habit based, otherwise?
> 
> My room is right by the front door/livingroom, so I should be able to catch him immediately if I'm out on the front porch. If I suspect that I won't be able to, I'll be sure to refrain.


Hi! I admire your resolve in taking this dog on and doing it right! 
Look at the part of your post that I bolded.....the first thing I want to say is, catching him IN THE ACT isn't what you want. What you want is catching him PRIOR TO having the accident. If you catch him prior to, you are saying, "hey, when you feel like this (the need to pee) here's where you go." AND, you have no mess to clean up, and no urine scent for him to smell next time and want to pee there again. 

By catching him PRIOR to the accident, you are simply (I know, it's not really simple) not allowing him to have any accidents because you are preventing them by close supervision. If you PREVENT accidents, you are shaping the behavior you want. He starts to get out of the habit of peeing on your stuff, because you are giving him no other option.

For some people, the level of supervision that a dog truly needs when potty training is surprising. But, accidents happen super quickly, and if you look away, he can take just seconds to squat and pee. Then, you've lost that teaching moment, and instead, you have a mess to clean. It does seem a hassle to keep your eyes on a dog ALL the time. When he's sleeping you're off the hook a bit. When he's laying in one place with a toy or chew, you're off the hook a bit. If he stands up, you're back on duty.
Yes, a hassle, but, being extra vigilant, and having next to no free time for a month or so really will pay off when you don't have to clean accidents anymore.

As for saying "no" that doesn't really teach him anything. No is too ambiguous, too generic, and is used in too many situations so it kind of stops having meaning, other that to interrupt. If you want to use it to interrupt, that's fine. But, dogs don't do very well making the connection that anytime you say no they should learn that they should never do that again. For them it means simply stop that moment.

And, on to the crate....I'm not a big crate user. I only used the crate for those moments when I had to take my eyes off my dog to do chores or cook, and it was only when they were puppies and couldn't be trusted on their own.
BUT, I will say this (because I'm not sure it's been made clear, or at least not said in these words)....*a crate can, for some dogs, ENCOURAGE them to hold it, and not pee. *That bolded part is what makes this go hand in hand with training, and what makes the crate management. A dog USUALLY won't soil it's "den". If he feels his crate is his "den" he will try harder to hold it and not pee. Also, if you leave the crate empty, no bedding in it, it will be uncomfortable for him to pee in it, because then he will have to sit in his pee. So, again, this is a tool to encourage him to hold it. 
This can help when you are GONE. Because, when you are gone, YOU cannot encourage him to hold it. But, being in the crate can encourage him to hold it.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm with everyone else here and think it really may be in your best interest to crate train. 

You mentioned he was an outdoor dog... if that's the case then he likely did mark as a way to protect his house from strange animals. Now you've stuck him indoors, with cats and another dog (2 dogs?) that he didn't live with until fairly recently. The house will smell like them and he wants something that smells like him to provide him comfort in his strange new surroundings. I don't think you're going to be able to train the behaviour out of him because of his age and because you're not available to redirect at the time of the behaviour. So the crate really might be your best option. The crate will provide him with a space that is his own, that smells like him. You can place a bed in it that is only his and even a sweater you've worn recently so he has your scent to keep him feeling calm. I know you don't like the idea and would prefer to exhaust all angles but like the others I'm just not seeing how you can "fix" this behaviour other then managing it. 

My bulldog is crate trained for preventative reasons as well.


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