# Why Pit bulls dont belong in dogparks



## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Video here http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/stor...lls-yorkshire-terrier-at-eden-prarie-dog-park
I don't like that they are kind of making him look bad for trusting the dog with kids, but there is no excuse for this and this is why pit bulls do not belong in dog parks. BUT Da is different from HA


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I think the owners of small dogs bear some responsibility as well. There is no way in Hell I would take a small dog into a dog park with large dogs. It's just too risky.

I think PB's shouldn't necessarily be at dog parks, but for a different reason...if anything happens, even if it wasn't the PB's fault, the breed will be blamed. It isn't worth the risk to the PB either.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> I think PB's shouldn't necessarily be at dog parks, but for a different reason...if anything happens, even if it wasn't the PB's fault, the breed will be blamed. It isn't worth the risk to the PB either.


Basically.

If I ever have a pit, or a bully breed or a breed that resembles anything bully, s/he will not be going to any dog parks. It would only take one time for someone's dog to start something and the pit would be blamed.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

To me it depends on the park. The park around here is empty half the time,and the other times it has like 1-3 other dogs. If done carefully,and while letting the dogs meet and react to each other safely before hand. Likely keep it to a 1 on 1 play date. 
Those are my rules with my Rottie,and the only time I would go to a dog park with him,so I would state it with Pit bulls as well. If a Pit is known to be from game blood lines don't even try.

I also don't want to set up playdates between big and small dogs,my past Malamute mix considered small dogs as prey so would be a poor choice for dog parks as well. Usually its because I don't want the small dog stepped on or accidentally injured. They also seem to get intimidated more easily,and can lash out.

I agree just because a dog is bad around other dogs/animals doesn't mean it is with kids. My Malamute mix was great with children,just not small animals,some dogs of equal size or livestock. I`m sick of the" what if it harms a child!" comment.


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

Only about 1 in 4 pit bulls I've seen at the dog park play nicely. They are typically very rough, and they like to pin other dogs. I typically discourage Ammy from trying to play with them at the parks by calling her away if they're there and she tries to play. I also agree with spotted nikes if I had a pit I would also avoid dog parks.


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

I think the idea of dog parks are nice but I would never take my dogs to one. I wouldn't take Jasper because I'd worry about him being hurt and I'd never take Buttercup because I'd worry about her hurting another dog. She's not aggressive but she's a very rough player. She wants to pin and chew on the dogs she plays with. She's really good at reading other dogs and will leave the ones alone who don't want to play (like our foster, Gus) but if a dog starts to play with her, it's on. 
I still have to sometimes separate her and Jasper because they play too rough and I worry about him getting hurt.

Besides that, I have no idea how Buttercup would react to an aggressive acting dog.


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## surlys_mom (Jul 5, 2013)

Kyndall54 said:


> Only about 1 in 4 pit bulls I've seen at the dog park play nicely. They are typically very rough, and they like to pin other dogs. I typically discourage Ammy from trying to play with them at the parks by calling her away if they're there and she tries to play. I also agree with spotted nikes if I had a pit I would also avoid dog parks.


Honestly, I agree, much as I hate to say it. I have seen a a very small handful of pits at the park the park that I would call DA, but most are not. But even the "friendly" ones play so aggressively in way that it scares/hurts other dogs. I always get a little nervous when one is in the dog park, which, again, makes me feel terrible to say. But of all the times my dog (who is not small at 65 pounds) has been knocked/run over or scared so much at play that her tail goes between her legs and she hides, 90% of the time it was because of a pit. That said, the absolute meanest dog we've ever encountered at the park is an Old English Sheepdog! He's notorious such that people actually leave with their dogs when he arrives.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

surlys_mom said:


> Honestly, I agree, much as I hate to say it. I have seen a a very small handful of pits at the park the park that I would call DA, but most are not. But even the "friendly" ones play so aggressively in way that it scares/hurts other dogs. I always get a little nervous when one is in the dog park, which, again, makes me feel terrible to say. But of all the times my dog (who is not small at 65 pounds) has been knocked/run over or scared so much at play that her tail goes between her legs and she hides, 90% of the time it was because of a pit. That said, the absolute meanest dog we've ever encountered at the park is an Old English Sheepdog! He's notorious such that people actually leave with their dogs when he arrives.


This isn't really unique to pits, honestly. There are some breeds that are just very, very RUDE and/or rough players. Bostons are one, and I have one. One of multiple reasons we don't interact with strange dogs. It isn't really a matter of not being good with dogs, or playing nicely, though. It's... play-style incompatibility, at that point. Unfortunately, Bug is 15lbs and if she ticks off the wrong dog she's lunch. Add in her inability to hear vocal 'back off' cues, and it's just asking for her to get trounced.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

To me, dog parks just aren't worth the risk. My dog plays with dogs we know with owners that we know and trust. A dog park just has too many uncontrollable variables. We learned the hard way when Sam was a puppy, but in retrospect, I'm glad that it happened in a way that did not permanently harm him, but scared us enough to make us think things through more. It was the kick in the head we needed to change the way we handled him and our attitude about dog parks before he got big and might have finished something even if he didn't start it.

There is so much else fun to do with a dog, I don't even miss not going to dog parks.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Is my Boston Bulldog considered a bully breed then?

We take Toby to the dog park all the time. He's learning his manners (finally) but has had an encounter or 2... One was with a black lab that grabbed him by the top of his head and ear and was dragging him around the park - which was a bit scary! Another time a husky thought he was lunch. 

Unfortunately if we take Toby to the small dog side of the park, nobody wants to play with him because he's too big. He's the same height as an english bulldog and built like a boston terrier, but muscular like the bulldog.. he's 40lbs. The only small dogs that don't fear him are boston terriers and the occasional puppy that enters the park.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Most Bostons are pretty heavily muscled when in shape.

Honestly? He's your dog and it's your call, but I would not be taking a dog with no tail, a smashed face, and a rough play-style into the dog park - for their safety. ESPECIALLY if other dogs are afraid of them. 

They don't have the same propensity toward DA as pits (or the bad rep), but yes: Bostons and EB are both Bully Breeds.


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## MrBiscuit (Aug 5, 2013)

Another element is the way other dogs may be reacting to the pit bulls/bulldogs. I can only speak from my experience with my one dog, but here it is: he's genuinely not dog-aggressive, but I now expect him to be "dog-defensive" to anything that looks like a pit bull/bulldog, regardless of size, on the leash or in a dog park, whether because (a) he is detecting something aggressive in those dogs or (b) he has had bad experiences with those breeds in the past or (c) he's just neurotically prejudiced, which I don't rule out. He backs off and growls in the direction of the bull, and if the bull misses the signal and approaches in what looks to me like a playful manner, he may well lunge and snarl. Of course I am willing to pull him away/out of the dog park as soon as I see something like that start to develop, but I wasn't always that attentive.

In any case our local dog park often has six to ten dogs of all sizes in a fenced area about the size of a tennis court, which is not ideal. (It sounds like the Minnesota park was comparable.) Fortunately there are some much larger ones within driving distance. It makes a world of difference.

Going back to the tragic Minnesota case, I note that the smaller dog was killed just after entering the gate, and I think about how common it is for one dog entering the park to become the occasion for every other dog in the park to mill around the gate in a chaotic mass, if their owners allow it, which often happens. The pit bull may actually have felt threatened in that situation, even by the terrier-victim. Again, speaking for my own 70-pound collie mix - he doesn't count pounds. He counts dogs. And I think his counting system is "one dog", "lots of dogs!". So, yes, he is perfectly capable of feeling threatened by two or three much smaller dogs who, objectively, are absolutely incapable of inflicting any damage on him. Fortunately he doesn't then kill one of them... or hasn't yet, anyway!... but I now try to watch out for those situations.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrBiscuit said:


> He backs off and growls in the direction of the bull, and if the bull misses the signal and approaches in what looks to me like a playful manner, he may well lunge and snarl.


It's almost certainly this. A lot of the bully breeds are like this, for some reason. I don't just mean pits, I mean bully breeds including boxers and bostons. They are RUDE, in the dog world, and a lot of other dogs object to that. They try to say 'back off', because the dog is physically rough and forward, the pit misses it, the dog goes to correct them with less subtle means and the fight is on. It's not a great situation, period, even before you add in dog aggression.


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

CptJack said:


> It's almost certainly this. A lot of the bully breeds are like this, for some reason. I don't just mean pits, I mean bully breeds including boxers and bostons. They are RUDE, in the dog world, and a lot of other dogs object to that. They try to say 'back off', because the dog is physically rough and forward, the pit misses it, the dog goes to correct them with less subtle means and the fight is on. It's not a great situation, period, even before you add in dog aggression.


I think I can agree with this. I'm sure that there are plenty of exceptions, bully breeds that can play very nicely with other dogs, but in my (limited) experience I'd agree with that observation.
Buttercup is wonderful at reading dogs that she meets. Even when she was only 6 months old and we first brought her home. She met our old dog, Rocky, and she wagged her tail and sniffed him and then walked away. She met Jasper (on leash) and nearly strangled herself trying to get to him to play. We had to keep them seperate for a long time because she played too rough. Rolling him over and just chewing on him like a squeaky toy. Jasper always went right back for more. We'd pull her off of him and he'd be jumping back at her. 
Now with the foster, Gus, Buttercup treats him very respectfully. She sniffs him and walks away. She has never tried anything with him. 

But I would not trust her to stop playing rough with a dog who decided that they didn't want to play anymore. Once she's in that rough play mode I think she'd ignore all the other dog's signals.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Leah00 said:


> I think I can agree with this. I'm sure that there are plenty of exceptions, bully breeds that can play very nicely with other dogs, but in my (limited) experience I'd agree with that observation.
> Buttercup is wonderful at reading dogs that she meets. Even when she was only 6 months old and we first brought her home. She met our old dog, Rocky, and she wagged her tail and sniffed him and then walked away. She met Jasper (on leash) and nearly strangled herself trying to get to him to play. We had to keep them seperate for a long time because she played too rough. Rolling him over and just chewing on him like a squeaky toy. Jasper always went right back for more. We'd pull her off of him and he'd be jumping back at her.
> Now with the foster, Gus, Buttercup treats him very respectfully. She sniffs him and walks away. She has never tried anything with him.
> 
> But I would not trust her to stop playing rough with a dog who decided that they didn't want to play anymore. Once she's in that rough play mode I think she'd ignore all the other dog's signals.



Yeah, and with BUg in particular - no vocal signals work, because she's deaf.

She is WONDERFUL with our dogs, overall, but they've trained her a bit over time and we've trained her through lots of interference when she isn't getting it. A strange dog, I don't think I'd want to risk it. In fact, I know I don't.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> I think the owners of small dogs bear some responsibility as well. There is no way in Hell I would take a small dog into a dog park with large dogs. It's just too risky.
> 
> I think PB's shouldn't necessarily be at dog parks, but for a different reason...if anything happens, even if it wasn't the PB's fault, the breed will be blamed. It isn't worth the risk to the PB either.


This. What happened here was tragic, but could of happened with any dog of any breed.


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## Faux (Aug 5, 2013)

CptJack said:


> This isn't really unique to pits, honestly. There are some breeds that are just very, very RUDE and/or rough players.


I agree with this. At doggy daycare, we do have some issues with Pits, but even more so it's the Bulldog varieties and Boxers. Or un-neutered males. They tend to rub other breeds the wrong way. My dogs usually avoid bulldog/boxer breeds..but really don't mind some Pits much at all. My dogs are moody herders, and don't appreciate the overzealous hello.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

So other dogs don't like Toby because of his breed?

Sorry I don't mean to hijack, but this was something that my DF and I had noticed. The shih tzu's, chihuahua's (especially), occasional JRT, and in general "smaller" dogs, tend to tuck tail and run if Toby so much as sniffs them. So we avoid them because it's not nice to scare friends, lol. So we take him to the big side where we discovered the boxers, bulldogs, and bostons tend to LOVE playing with Toby. 
Toby is learning his manners, he's grown up visiting with an Australian Shepherd, Wolf/Husky mix, and a JRT and they've all taught him what's considered acceptable and what isn't. His manners have come a long way from "I NEED TO JUMP ON YOUR HEAD!!" to now "sniff, sniff, play, walk away" and as soon as the other dog makes any bark/growl/sound Toby comes straight to us. He also doesn't try to play with dogs in pursuit of him, for example there was a shih tzu in the small dog side when we were there, this dog just did not like Toby being on *his* side of the park, so when Toby got close he chased him away. Toby didn't even try to go back and play with the dog, he 'got it' from the start. 

But is his breed really the cause for ... doggy discrimination? Lol If so, that's really quite interesting!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BostonBullMama said:


> So other dogs don't like Toby because of his breed?
> 
> Sorry I don't mean to hijack, but this was something that my DF and I had noticed. The shih tzu's, chihuahua's (especially), occasional JRT, and in general "smaller" dogs, tend to tuck tail and run if Toby so much as sniffs them. So we avoid them because it's not nice to scare friends, lol. So we take him to the big side where we discovered the boxers, bulldogs, and bostons tend to LOVE playing with Toby.
> Toby is learning his manners, he's grown up visiting with an Australian Shepherd, Wolf/Husky mix, and a JRT and they've all taught him what's considered acceptable and what isn't. His manners have come a long way from "I NEED TO JUMP ON YOUR HEAD!!" to now "sniff, sniff, play, walk away" and as soon as the other dog makes any bark/growl/sound Toby comes straight to us. He also doesn't try to play with dogs in pursuit of him, for example there was a shih tzu in the small dog side when we were there, this dog just did not like Toby being on *his* side of the park, so when Toby got close he chased him away. Toby didn't even try to go back and play with the dog, he 'got it' from the start.
> ...



A lot of what we're talking about here is related to play style. Bulldogs tend to be very, very PHYSICAL players, whose idea of a good time is wrestling around, as opposed to chasing or playing side by side. That's not something a lot of dogs appreciate. 

Some of it is breed, though. Toby's face (Bug's, and other Boxers, Bostons and Bulldogs), have distorted facial features (smashed nose, very round, kind of protruding, forward facing eyes). Bostons and EB have 'rigid' tails, that don't move, in addition to being short. You add all that together, and you have a dog who is hard for other dogs to read the intent of. 

Put those two things together (exuberance, physical play, hard to read) and yeah. A lot of dogs just don't like them much.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

How absolutely horrifying for that poor Yorkie owner. I can't imagine how horrid it would be to see your dog ripped apart before your eyes and there is nothing you can do. To have to rush him to the vet and have him bleed out in your arms. There simply is no excuse. Like she said "where was the owner?" THIS is why I hate dog parks. My own dogs were attacked on a few different occasions and on all of those, the owner was so far away they did nothing to stop the issue. 

I have even more compassion for anyone in a situation like this since I have the vicious Pit Bull next door who has come after my dog on 4 different occasions and ripped through my fence and bit my dogs. I live in fear of the stupid dog so I totally get the feelings this poor woman has over the loss of her dog. Dog parks are a risk no matter what breed of dog you own but I do not understand why anyone thinks it is alright to bring a breed that is specifically bred to be dog aggressive to a park, much less bring it and then not manage it while you are there. Take the dog for walks on leash and maybe, IF there is a time where there are no other dogs at the park then go. 

I won't bring my Rottweilers to the parks either. I Do not want my dogs blamed for anything if anything should happen. My dogs have regular play dates with my friends dogs from very small 4 pounds to dogs there own size. We watch our dogs and know our dogs so.... no strangers involved to throw a wrench into it. 

Rotties play like gladiators most of the time and when a dog doesn't know them, it is an issue. The two boys I currently have play pretty nice but do on occasion need reminders to take it easy. Carsten body slammed his Frenchie friend so hard that she rolled about 7 times across the yard. Thankfully she wasn't hurt. This wasn't aggression, it was just gladiator play style and it must be monitored. Carsten has also gotten ripped into by his little Aussie friend for his rough play style, he body checks her and she rips him a new butt. Dogs do not appreciate the rough play all the time. Thankfully, he seems to get that and not retaliate from the corrections he has gotten. Dog parks are accidents waiting to happen most of the time. IMO


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

This is a very tragic set of events... I feel so sorry for the poor yorkie and it's owners.

I do not visit dog parks in a 'normal' way. I visit the 'forgotten', almost always empty parks at the times of day that the likely hood of even SEEING another person or dog is slim to none. I either take my dogs alone or we meet up with dogs they like who are comfortable with them (their 'friends') for a small play date. My dogs ( like most pits) play ROUGH! It's like comparing flag football to full contact. If anyone comes we either leave or move to a different section. They head butt, they grab a leg and flip other dogs over, they pin and growl/snarl/snap teeth. And they do NOT tolerate 'rude' dogs. It just so happens that they have their own definition of rude.

So I have to agree, combined with the potential for DA AND their 'normal rudeness' bully breeds make very poor dog park dogs.

Another little two cents:

I believe fewer dogs should be in a dog park, and not by breed but by individual dogs. Half of the dogs that people shove into these parks are either WAY too pent up, schizo and hyper (which CAN cause a fight, I've seen it happen before), too rude, aggressive, intolerant or too shy, nervous, fearful. All of which can cause major problems. 

The other day I was with my friend and her to very even tempered, 'bomb proof' dogs at the dog park (my dogs were obviously not with me). These dogs are very stable and are dogs that make great dog park guests. While we were there a young woman came into the park with a small poodle. Two LABS zeroed in immediately, attacked and killed the poodle. The owners of the labs just watched screaming for their dogs to come while myself, my friend and the poodle's owner pulled their dogs off. The poodle owner was very upset. You know what the other people in the park told her? That it was HER fault for coming to the dog park with her small dog. That the labs' owners were not to blame in anyway. 

I wonder how this would have turned out had the dogs been pit bulls....

Anyway this is just to kinda make my point for me. Bully breeds shouldn't got to dog parks. But half the dog population out their shouldn't go either.


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## whit72 (May 5, 2013)

Dog parks are a bad idea all together. It has little to do with breed. We often forget that these are animals. When together a pack mentality will often ensue, a dominance game is playing out, subtle as it may be and even undetectable by there owners. They are animals not humans, they will determine a hierarchy, and they will enforce it If need be.

I took my dog to many parks. A bully breed well trained and socialized but that doesn't ensure that hundreds of years of instinct will not prevail. People drop there dogs sit on the bench with their iphones and play on facebook. Dogs fight, and they always will, we expect too much from them there not people their animals accept them for what they are and don't put them in situations where failure is an option.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm going to side with the yorkie owners just because going off from what the pit owner said himself, he said "great, this is ANOTHER park we can't be in anymore" now he said something like this even if it isn't quoted word for word, THAT right there tells me this isn't the first incident or maybe this is even a third incident with his dog not behaving with other dogs right. This dog doesn't sound like he should be within miles of a dog park at all, to me it doesn't have to do with breed (though I know most pits have DA or play rudely like cpt jack said) it has to do with this individual dog and his clearly stupid owner that shouldn't even probably have a pit bull because he doesn't SEEM to care or really feel remorse that his dog just killed another dog.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Obviously this is a horrible tragedy, and those owners were completely irresponsible and negligent, but I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping "this is why pit bulls don't belong in dog parks." I understand why people prefer not to go to dog parks in general, but it's not right to say pits don't belong there. To me, that's akin to BSL.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

MyCharlie said:


> Obviously this is a horrible tragedy, and those owners were completely irresponsible and negligent, but I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping "this is why pit bulls don't belong in dog parks." I understand why people prefer not to go to dog parks in general, but it's not right to say pits don't belong there. To me, that's akin to BSL.


I agree 100% with you MyCharlie.

I am of the firm belief that dogs should all be assessed uniquely, individually  Of course, many pit bull type dogs are not dog park friendly... but so are a bunch of other dogs that come to dog parks anyway.

People with dogs that are targeted by the media and BSL should be especially careful though, imo.


Oh, and just an FYI, the park closest to my home is frequented regularly by about 30% pit bull type dogs. Most of the time issues are not from these dogs. There are a select few who cause trouble, but it's usually this wolfdog (what is he doing at a dog park?!?!) and this guy with two intact GSPs.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

MyCharlie said:


> Obviously this is a horrible tragedy, and those owners were completely irresponsible and negligent, but I don't think it's fair to make such a sweeping "this is why pit bulls don't belong in dog parks." I understand why people prefer not to go to dog parks in general, but it's not right to say pits don't belong there. To me, that's akin to BSL.


No If you are a pit bull owner in my opinion it is irresponsible to bring your pit bull to a dog park and not expect any thing to happen. To me it is irresponsible to bring an animal BRED to be dog aggressive to a park filled with other dogs.. It's not akin to BSL saying they can't go to dog parks IT PREVENTS BSL, it's our job to keep our dogs safe, and make sure that we prevent anything that could lead to BSL, and when you bring your Pit Bull to a dog park you can't prevent anything, because you cannot control other people's dogs, and if you aren't prepared for a fight (have a break stick on you) you're going to have a hell of a time breaking up a fight if one happens. AND ANY TIME i've seen a fight break out at a dog park, not a single person takes charge knowing what to do, most of the time it's just screaming chaos which doesn't help break up the fight at all


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Trillian said:


> This is a very tragic set of events... I feel so sorry for the poor yorkie and it's owners.
> 
> I do not visit dog parks in a 'normal' way. I visit the 'forgotten', almost always empty parks at the times of day that the likely hood of even SEEING another person or dog is slim to none. I either take my dogs alone or we meet up with dogs they like who are comfortable with them (their 'friends') for a small play date. My dogs ( like most pits) play ROUGH! It's like comparing flag football to full contact. If anyone comes we either leave or move to a different section. They head butt, they grab a leg and flip other dogs over, they pin and growl/snarl/snap teeth. And they do NOT tolerate 'rude' dogs. It just so happens that they have their own definition of rude.
> 
> ...


I agree, honestly i don't like dog parks at all and would never bring ANY of my dogs there, Pit Bull or not.. I just think it's extra important for Pit Bulls NOT to go to dog parks compared to other breeds. Because if the Pit Bull does, what Pit Bulls were bred to do, and a fight happens, BSL could come knocking on MY door because of the actions of some idiot, who wanted to believe they could socialize the Pit, out of the Pit Bull & wasn't prepared for a fight..Even if a Pit Bull doesn't start it, he will be the one to blame


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Adjecyca1 said:


> No If you are a pit bull owner in my opinion it is irresponsible to bring your pit bull to a dog park and not expect any thing to happen.


Ahh, I see your point, and I totally understand the responsible ownership side of it (which, obviously, these folks weren't). It seemed as though you were saying pit bulls shouldn't be *allowed* at dog parks. I've seen plenty of pits at the various parks we have visited, and can't remember a single incident with any of them. But I still think with ALL breeds, the owner should be responsible, attentive to what's going on, willing to leave if another dog enters that may cause issue (you can't control their actions, but you can control yours - I have left many a park earlier than I would have liked because I didn't like certain dogs that were there). But I agree that it's even more important with pit owners, given the way society is currently.


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> No If you are a pit bull owner in my opinion it is irresponsible to bring your pit bull to a dog park and not expect any thing to happen. To me it is irresponsible to bring an animal BRED to be dog aggressive to a park filled with other dogs.. It's not akin to BSL saying they can't go to dog parks IT PREVENTS BSL, it's our job to keep our dogs safe, and make sure that we prevent anything that could lead to BSL, and when you bring your Pit Bull to a dog park you can't prevent anything, because you cannot control other people's dogs, and if you aren't prepared for a fight (have a break stick on you) you're going to have a hell of a time breaking up a fight if one happens. AND ANY TIME i've seen a fight break out at a dog park, not a single person takes charge knowing what to do, most of the time it's just screaming chaos which doesn't help break up the fight at all


Yes.

While I do agree that dog are all individuals and there are plenty of bully breeds that get along just fine with other dogs, it's still not worth the risk. Even if the bully breed doesn't start it, he will get blamed. I'm sure that right now there's a group of people trying to pass BSL in the area where this attack happened and now they have ammo. 
Is it sad? Yes, very! That doesn't change the facts.
Hopefully in 100 years this whole "Pit Bulls are monsters" fad will have passed and they can be judged fairly like any other breed, but until then it's better to keep them out of situations that can harm them and the breed as a whole.

I also frequent a bully breeds forum and the quickest way new members can get flamed is by saying that they take their dogs to dog parks.

I've already said once that I wouldn't take any of my dogs to a dog park.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Trillian said:


> I believe fewer dogs should be in a dog park, and not by breed but by individual dogs. Half of the dogs that people shove into these parks are either WAY too pent up, schizo and hyper (which CAN cause a fight, I've seen it happen before), too rude, aggressive, intolerant or too shy, nervous, fearful. All of which can cause major problems.


TOTALLY agree with ya. I am a fan of dog parks, but I'm also realistic that we're dealing with the public.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I agree, honestly i don't like dog parks at all and would never bring ANY of my dogs there, Pit Bull or not.. I just think it's extra important for Pit Bulls NOT to go to dog parks compared to other breeds. Because if the Pit Bull does, what Pit Bulls were bred to do, and a fight happens, BSL could come knocking on MY door because of the actions of some idiot, who wanted to believe they could socialize the Pit, out of the Pit Bull & wasn't prepared for a fight..Even if a Pit Bull doesn't start it, he will be the one to blame



Oh I agree 100%. I live in a small amount of fear around here, people are so ignorant with their dogs that I fear MY dogs being taken away because of it. I try very hard to educate people with Bully breeds but most of them sadly don't believe me until something happens.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

CptJack said:


> It's almost certainly this. A lot of the bully breeds are like this, for some reason. I don't just mean pits, I mean bully breeds including boxers and bostons. They are RUDE, in the dog world, and a lot of other dogs object to that. They try to say 'back off', because the dog is physically rough and forward, the pit misses it, the dog goes to correct them with less subtle means and the fight is on. It's not a great situation, period, even before you add in dog aggression.


Totally. Jackson HATES the play style of most bully breeds. We used to occasionally do big dog side with him if I went with friends/family who had big dogs. But we had an incident with a pit-looking dog who rudely came up to him and rammed into him and he got SO defensive. I had never seen him like that, as he's super laid back and easy to get along with, but he was going at it and right in this pit's face and I grabbed him up so quick and left. We just do not risk it anymore. He feels the need to defend himself and I get nervous. 90% of the the obnoxious rude dogs are bully breeds, and I don't mean that againist them, it just... they just have such a different style and a lot of dogs take offense. Most fights have been pits as well that I've witnessed.

We go to a state park where you have to pay to get in and there is a dog park there, small dog side and big dog side. We typically do a long walk and then take a visit to the small dog park. Never encountered any problems on that side really. And Jackson has a good time. He doesn't 'play' like he used to with other dogs but occasionally he does, and he enjoys sniffing everyone and wandering around etc. So it's just a nice place to let him be off leash for a bit. But yes big dog side ... totally not worth it to me anymore.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Adjecyca1 said:


> No If you are a pit bull owner in my opinion it is irresponsible to bring your pit bull to a dog park and not expect any thing to happen. To me it is irresponsible to bring an animal BRED to be dog aggressive to a park filled with other dogs.. It's not akin to BSL saying they can't go to dog parks IT PREVENTS BSL, it's our job to keep our dogs safe, and make sure that we prevent anything that could lead to BSL, and when you bring your Pit Bull to a dog park you can't prevent anything, because you cannot control other people's dogs, and if you aren't prepared for a fight (have a break stick on you) you're going to have a hell of a time breaking up a fight if one happens. AND ANY TIME i've seen a fight break out at a dog park, not a single person takes charge knowing what to do, most of the time it's just screaming chaos which doesn't help break up the fight at all


Yeah. This.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Its a tragic event yes but to say "pit bulls shouldnt be aloud at dog parks" shouldn't be the conclusion. In my opinion that this sad event would have been brushed off if it were a different breed like a lab or a retriever or a collie. 

People who dont watch their dog should not be aloud at dog parks. People who dont care what their dog is doing, or dont run over guns blazing if there dog is doing something bad should not be aloud at the dog park.

I think dont think there should be breed bans at dog parks. It should be "stupid people bans" 

I cant go to dog parks. Why? Because people always stereo type my dog. Its extremely sad to know that some people cant take their dog out because other people stereo type them. People who do own breeds like a pit, or any bully, dobe, rottie anything, should pay most attention because people will be on your ass so hard if something happens. Thats why the owner should always be there to stop stereotypical people.

Why is it so different that a pitbull did it opposed to if it were a lab. A dog is a dog, a stupid owner is a stupid owner. The breed should not be the one getting blamed here, it should be the owner. 

The owner is the one at fault, the owner should have known that his dog is going to be watched by others because its a pitbull, the owner should have been there at the first sign of trouble. 

I am actually pleasantly surprised she said "separate area for small dogs" instead of jumping to "banning pitbulls" that girl lost her baby and didnt blame the breed, so why should we? Its not the breed, its never the breed. Its the dogs in the breed. 


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I think we were saying breeds specifically because pit bulls are known to be DA that's all, it's all about what the breed was bred for and even though I hate all the stereotypes of pit bulls they shouldn't really be in dog parks. I'm not saying ban them but people should really know better and we all agree that the owner was stupid and it was the owner's fault


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> I think we were saying breeds specifically because pit bulls are known to be DA that's all, it's all about what the breed was bred for and even though I hate all the stereotypes of pit bulls they shouldn't really be in dog parks. I'm not saying ban them but people should really know better and we all agree that the owner was stupid and it was the owner's fault


There are a lot of other dogs who are considered dog aggressive. BUT i dont think that was the case here. I think it was prey drive. That pitbull saw the yorkie as if it were a squirrel and gunned for it. A bull terrier also has an extreme high prey drive, but because they aren't much bigger than girlies they leave them alone. 

The pitbull was all exited. And all worked up while playing and he saw a extremely tiny "thing" (in his mind) and ran towards it annd unfortunately killed it. He would have done the same if a squirrel came in or a chipmunk, he probably would have even chased a bird because he was so worked up.

Its so unfortunate about what happened, that do is now at risk if being euthanized and some poor lady is left without her baby. Thats why i agree that there should be a separate area for small dogs because larger dogs with a high prey drive can do some serious damage. I wish my dog park had a separate area for small dogs so i can take my dogs there without having to worry. 


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

How many Pit Bull owners that go to the dog park do you think brings break sticks? Pit bulls don't belong in dog parks because they were bred to FIGHT other dogs, because compared to a lab when a Pit Bull grabs a hold of something, it's going to do a lot more damage, and be harder to separate. Most people PANIC in dog park fights, and it's going to be really hard for the owner to separate the dogs without a break stick.
.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I don't own a pit, but if I did I would probably not be bringing it to a dog park, for its safety as well as the other dogs'.

Let's even say my dog wasn't aggressive, but got attacked by another dog. If my dog defended itself, because pits are physically designed to fight other dogs, my dog would probably do serious damage to the attacker pretty quickly. Moreover, my dog would probably be blamed for the fight, and could very likely be put down as a result of it all. Not a risk I'm willing to take.


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

RCloud said:


> This. What happened here was tragic, but could of happened with any dog of any breed.


I have to agree here. Sure, some breeds have tendencies a certain way especially when that behaviour is nurtured or not discouraged by the owners...but any breed is capable of this. IMHO dog breeds are like people. Certain groups of people may act a certain way due to culture or whatever, but you can't say "no black people allowed" in a park because a few thugs went through that happened to be black and vandalized the place or something. 

Certain breeds are not for everyone, but you can't bar certain breeds because of a few bad apples.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Delphinus85 said:


> I have to agree here. Sure, some breeds have tendencies a certain way especially when that behaviour is nurtured or not discouraged by the owners...but any breed is capable of this. IMHO dog breeds are like people. Certain groups of people may act a certain way due to culture or whatever, but you can't say "no black people allowed" in a park because a few thugs went through that happened to be black and vandalized the place or something.
> 
> Certain breeds are not for everyone, but you can't bar certain breeds because of a few bad apples.


THISTHISTHIS


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Delphinus85 said:


> I have to agree here. Sure, some breeds have tendencies a certain way especially when that behaviour is nurtured or not discouraged by the owners...but any breed is capable of this. IMHO dog breeds are like people. Certain groups of people may act a certain way due to culture or whatever, but you can't say "no black people allowed" in a park because a few thugs went through that happened to be black and vandalized the place or something.
> 
> Certain breeds are not for everyone, but you can't bar certain breeds because of a few bad apples.


Sure, of course all breeds can be aggressive. However, if a lab starts something with a golden, it's likely the encounter won't result in life ending consequences, whereas if a pit was involved, it very likely could.

I am not and would never advocate a breed ban, but extra caution in certain situations is by all means warranted.


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## brunodog (Aug 23, 2013)

I live in minneapolis so I am familiar with this story. Being a pit bull owner, this story makes me sad for many reasons. First, it is truly sad what happened to that poor dog and the owner of the dog lost a great friend. Speaking to the owner of the pit bull, you can not leave your dog unattended under any circumstances. This seems like a case of negligence plain and simple. I stopped bringing my pit bull to dog parks because he kept getting attacked by other dogs-smaller dogs-believe it or not, and when he would defend himself it would turn into a fight. If your dog has any social aggression, dog parks should be off your list. The owner of the poor dog who ended up dying from this incident had the suggestion to have separate parks for larger and smaller dogs which i think is a great idea. Even in her grief, she didn't have the normal reaction of "all pit bulls are dangerous killers" which seems to be the status quo in these situations and I thought that was pretty amazing. Its a terrible thing that happened but if people would watch their dogs more carefully, these situations could be eliminated.


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Sure, of course all breeds can be aggressive. However, if a lab starts something with a golden, it's likely the encounter won't result in life ending consequences, whereas if a pit was involved, it very likely could.
> 
> I am not and would never advocate a breed ban, but extra caution in certain situations is by all means warranted.


Well this goes without saying. Everyone should be aware of their dog's temperament and size. And, from what it sounds like in this article, had these owners minded these things, this would never have happened.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Although I believe that having a separate park for smaller dogs and larger dogs, I still do not believe that it is responsible to bring Pit Bulls to dog parks. If you own a dog that is specifically bred to be dog aggressive, why would you wish to bring it into a park with a bunch of strange dogs and uncontrolled situations? If you buy a dog that is bred to herd sheep you wouldn't bring it to a sheep park and expect it to never wish to chase sheep, right? Knowing and accepting what your dog is designed/bred to do is half the battle of responsible dog ownership, in my opinion. Hearing story after story ending the same (as this one) just breaks my heart. Every single time I hear them I think to myself "why doesn't the owner get what their dog is bred to do?" Why are people surprised that a dog suddenly does what it's instincts tell him/her to do? It doesn't matter how cuddly your dog is at home, or with a play buddy the dog has grown up with, it is instinct and it can kick in at any time. Just for the record, I love Pit Bulls but if I owned one, I wouldn't put him/her at risk by putting them into a situation where the public could be screaming for the death of my dog. Accidents happen every day, why set your dog up for one?


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

Inga said:


> Although I believe that having a separate park for smaller dogs and larger dogs, I still do not believe that it is responsible to bring Pit Bulls to dog parks. If you own a dog that is specifically bred to be dog aggressive, why would you wish to bring it into a park with a bunch of strange dogs and uncontrolled situations? If you buy a dog that is bred to herd sheep you wouldn't bring it to a sheep park and expect it to never wish to chase sheep, right? Knowing and accepting what your dog is designed/bred to do is half the battle of responsible dog ownership, in my opinion. Hearing story after story ending the same (as this one) just breaks my heart. Every single time I hear them I think to myself "why doesn't the owner get what their dog is bred to do?" Why are people surprised that a dog suddenly does what it's instincts tell him/her to do? It doesn't matter how cuddly your dog is at home, or with a play buddy the dog has grown up with, it is instinct and it can kick in at any time. Just for the record, I love Pit Bulls but if I owned one, I wouldn't put him/her at risk by putting them into a situation where the public could be screaming for the death of my dog. Accidents happen every day, why set your dog up for one?


Makes sense to me. Most of the people who know and love Pit Bulls feel that way.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Delphinus85 said:


> I have to agree here. *Sure, some breeds have tendencies a certain way especially when that behaviour is nurtured or not discouraged by the owners*...but any breed is capable of this. IMHO dog breeds are like people. Certain groups of people may act a certain way due to culture or whatever, but you can't say "no black people allowed" in a park because a few thugs went through that happened to be black and vandalized the place or something.
> 
> Certain breeds are not for everyone, but you can't bar certain breeds because of a few bad apples.


 I do not agree with this statement AT ALL, dogs are very much ruled by genetics, and no amount of discouragement or training, will change those genetics. Most DA pit bulls started off loving other dogs, but because of their GENES when they reached maturity, decided they no longer liked other dogs,because this is in his GENES.and no amount of "discouragement" will change that. Dogs are not people, you cannot explain to a Pit Bull, why he should like other dogs, You can not explain to a Blood Hound, why he shouldn't follow his nose wherever he pleases. Dogs aren't people, and failing to realize that is ONLY failing your dog..


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Can I ask a question (not to stir the pot, but because I'm genuinely curious)? And sorry if this derails the thread...

Have pit bulls ALWAYS been considered a DA breed? Weren't they at one point considered a typical 'all american family dog' in a sense (I'm thinking Petey from Little Rascals, for example)? If not, at what point did their genetics change, and how long would it (hypothetically) take for their genes to "change back"? Or is that even possible at this point? Even if the DA tendency/genetics (semantics - gah) were to be bred away, would it still be irresponsible to go to dog parks, for example, because if they DID get in a fight (even in self defense), it would still be harder to break them up and they would do more damage? 

Again, sorry to get so off topic. But seeing all these comments about them being bred to be DA and it's in their genetic makeup just makes me wonder. Obviously pit bulls haven't always had as bad a reputation as they have received over the last decade or so - have they been made "worse" by all the bad breeding? Has it changed their genetic makeup that much or is it just that people are more knowledgeable now?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MyCharlie said:


> Can I ask a question (not to stir the pot, but because I'm genuinely curious)? And sorry if this derails the thread...
> 
> Have pit bulls ALWAYS been considered a DA breed? Weren't they at one point considered a typical 'all american family dog' in a sense (I'm thinking Petey from Little Rascals, for example)? If not, at what point did their genetics change, and how long would it (hypothetically) take for their genes to "change back"? Or is that even possible at this point? Even if the DA tendency/genetics (semantics - gah) were to be bred away, would it still be irresponsible to go to dog parks, for example, because if they DID get in a fight (even in self defense), it would still be harder to break them up and they would do more damage?
> 
> Again, sorry to get so off topic. But seeing all these comments about them being bred to be DA and it's in their genetic makeup just makes me wonder. Obviously pit bulls haven't always had as bad a reputation as they have received over the last decade or so - have they been made "worse" by all the bad breeding? Has it changed their genetic makeup that much or is it just that people are more knowledgeable now?



Pits have always been DA. 

we just used not to consider DA the same as HA.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

A dog is a dog. A canine is a canine. All dogs are capable of what a pitbull is capable of.

I think its sad that the breed is blamed instead of the idiotic owner. Some people's arent like that, some pitbulls are fine and happy go lucky. This lady lost her BABY. And she didnt once blame the breed. She said "there should be a desperate area for small dogs" not "pitbulls should not be aloud at dog parks". If she can move past the fact that the dog who killed her baby was a pitbull why cant we? Why do we have to dwell on the fact that it was a pitbull. She lost her baby and were the ones saying pitbulls shouldn't be aloud in dog parks. Thats ridiculous. Im being straight up here, pits have high prey drive, he saw the little dog as prey. Not because hes dog aggressive. If he was dog aggressive hes hate everyone there not just the little yorkie. If the pit was raised by a good owner (unlike his current one) this most likely would not have happened. 

The people should be blamed. If we continue to think pitbulls are this and that and the other thing than they will be. If your expectations for a dog is for it to be a horrible dog, it will. If you look at a child and tell them theyre a horrible child then theyll be a horrible child. Why is that different with dogs? People treat labs like labs an pitbulls like pitbulls an to me, thats wrong. You should treat a dog like a dog. 

EVERY dog is different. I like the example of coloured people. If a few black people are bad, all black people are bad. If a few pitbulls are bad, all pitbulls are bad. If a few children are bad, all children are bad. Do you see where im coming from? If you have NEGATIVE expectations for someone or something, do you think they will act positive? 

Its actually so sad and so disappointing that some people actually think pitbulls are bad dogs because idiotic people threw them in rings and bred the best fighters. THIS BREED IS NOT TO BLAME. I own a DOBERMAN. Do you know how upsetting it is to hear someone say that your dog is aggressive an horrible and should be put down and separate from society for no reason other than that he is a doberman? 

Do you know how upsetting it but be for pitbull owners to be told that they own an aggressive dog and he should be put down. Who wants to hear that about their dog? Why? Because some idiots thought they'd throw these dogs ima ring? Because some idiots wanted a dog who can fight for FUN!? This is why the breed is looked down upon. Because people blame the breed. People can neeever blame themselves. People cant sit down and say "what am i doing wrong". Instead they say "this dog is aggressive and horrible and should be destroyed"

Some people just completely floor me. That they think pitbulls are a horrible aggressive breed, but never look at their owners. 

What about Cesar's dog? Daddy? Junior? Pitbulls an parolees? Its so sad that people can never see the good. Its so sad that some people cant stop and think "maybe its not the breed"


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> A dog is a dog. A canine is a canine. All dogs are capable of what a pitbull is capable of.
> 
> I think its sad that the breed is blamed instead of the idiotic owner. Some people's arent like that, some pitbulls are fine and happy go lucky. This lady lost her BABY. And she didnt once blame the breed. She said "there should be a desperate area for small dogs" not "pitbulls should not be aloud at dog parks". If she can move past the fact that the dog who killed her baby was a pitbull why cant we? Why do we have to dwell on the fact that it was a pitbull. She lost her baby and were the ones saying pitbulls shouldn't be aloud in dog parks. Thats ridiculous. Im being straight up here, pits have high prey drive, he saw the little dog as prey. Not because hes dog aggressive. If he was dog aggressive hes hate everyone there not just the little yorkie. If the pit was raised by a good owner (unlike his current one) this most likely would not have happened.
> 
> ...


I'd just like to address this example and why it is incorrect. People of colour were not selectively bred for hundreds of years to be aggressive and violent toward other people. That is what makes it an invalid comparison.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> A dog is a dog. A canine is a canine. All dogs are capable of what a pitbull is capable of.
> _No all dogs are not capable of what a pit bull is capable, of, if a Dachshund starts a fight with another dog, i seriously doubt the damage it inflicts will be comparable to that of what a Pit Bull could do_
> 
> I think its sad that the breed is blamed instead of the idiotic owner. Some people's arent like that, some pitbulls are fine and happy go lucky. This lady lost her BABY. And she didnt once blame the breed. She said "there should be a desperate area for small dogs" not "pitbulls should not be aloud at dog parks". If she can move past the fact that the dog who killed her baby was a pitbull why cant we? Why do we have to dwell on the fact that it was a pitbull. She lost her baby and were the ones saying pitbulls shouldn't be aloud in dog parks. Thats ridiculous. Im being straight up here, pits have high prey drive, he saw the little dog as prey. Not because hes dog aggressive. If he was dog aggressive hes hate everyone there not just the little yorkie. If the pit was raised by a good owner (unlike his current one) this most likely would not have happened.
> ...


 My replies are in red


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I'd just like to address this example and why it is incorrect. People of colour were not selectively bred for hundreds of years to be aggressive and violent toward other people. That is what makes it an invalid comparison.



And you think breeds today still breed them like that? Pit bull breeders work hard to only breed the dogs with the best temperament to produce puppies who have a good temperament. Then they take those puppies and breed them. In the last 13 years, 5 generations of pitbulls have been produced. When you get a puppy, you are (hopefully) given a 5 generation pedigree because you will be able to see where your dogs traits come from. The breeding of pitbulls have come so hard. but sadly, people still buy from byb's who take shitty random dogs and breed them. 

To think pitbulls are still these dog fighting horrid dogs is so unrealistic and so misjudged. And its a little insulting to reputable pitbull breeders who work so hard picking the right dogs, breeding the right temperaments in. 


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> A dog is a dog. A canine is a canine. All dogs are capable of what a pitbull is capable of.


Except, pits were CREATED to fight, and kill, other dogs. That is a fact that needs to be addressed. This is what they were bred for. To fight, and kill, other dogs. They have for many, many moons, and still are to this day. It was illegal when it started and it is illegal now, and yet it is still going on. They have many many many many years of dog aggression bred into them. The same way a border collie has many many many many years of herding instincts bred into them.




> What about Cesar's dog? Daddy? Junior? Pitbulls an parolees? Its so sad that people can never see the good. Its so sad that some people cant stop and think "maybe its not the breed"


And this is a horrible example of your point, but a great example of why genetics play a huge part in how a dog behaves. Daddy and Junior suffered. They were subject to the hands of a man that thinks you should physically and mentally intimidate dogs to get them to obey. 
And, if you watch Pit Bulls and Parolees, you will see Tia has a whhooolllleeeee big section for dog aggressive dogs. A whole big section.


Dog aggression is not human aggression. Pits were bred to be absolutely dog aggressive and absolutely not human aggressive. 

Yes, some of them aren't going to be DA, but many of them are. It is a breed trait. It doesn't mean they're bad dogs, but it's a fact of life. Nuture does have to do with it, but nature also plays a huge part. You do what you can with what you've got.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

MyCharlie said:


> Can I ask a question (not to stir the pot, but because I'm genuinely curious)? And sorry if this derails the thread...
> 
> Have pit bulls ALWAYS been considered a DA breed? Weren't they at one point considered a typical 'all american family dog' in a sense (I'm thinking Petey from Little Rascals, for example)? If not, at what point did their genetics change, and how long would it (hypothetically) take for their genes to "change back"? Or is that even possible at this point? Even if the DA tendency/genetics (semantics - gah) were to be bred away, would it still be irresponsible to go to dog parks, for example, because if they DID get in a fight (even in self defense), it would still be harder to break them up and they would do more damage?
> 
> Again, sorry to get so off topic. But seeing all these comments about them being bred to be DA and it's in their genetic makeup just makes me wonder. Obviously pit bulls haven't always had as bad a reputation as they have received over the last decade or so - have they been made "worse" by all the bad breeding? Has it changed their genetic makeup that much or is it just that people are more knowledgeable now?


PIT bulls have always been bred for the PIT, so they have been Da, ever since they got the name Pit Bull...I personally don't like people bringing Ambullies or Amstaffs to dog parks even though they tend to be less DA. Most of the ones i met still"bully" while playing and until the breed is out of the spotlight i don't think that is a risk people should take. I personally wouldn't want APBT breeders breeding away from Da, you'd just end up with an Amstaff


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> To think pitbulls are still these dog fighting horrid dogs is so unrealistic and so misjudged. And its a little insulting to reputable pitbull breeders who work so hard picking the right dogs, breeding the right temperaments in.


I'm sorry. Have you seen how many pit breeders there are? Do you know how many pits are for free/sale on kijiji, craigslist and puppyfind right now? How many are sold in petshops and through papers?
Yes, responsible breeders are busting their ass to breed out the dog aggression, but it is a deeply rooted instinct. It's not that easy.


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## brunodog (Aug 23, 2013)

You cant argue the fact that pit bulls are unfairly stereotyped by the media. If a lab attacks a person the headline will read "dog attacks man etc.." but when a pit bull has a similar incident the headline reads "pitbull mauls woman etc..". I have known many pit bulls along with many other breeds of dog and there can be aggression across the board. The only problems i've had with my pit bull and other dogs were at dog parks and other dogs of various breeds were the aggressor. Dog parks provide a neutral territory where certain dogs want to be dominant and without submission thats where fights begin, at least from what i've seen and i have broken up more dog fights than I care to remember. In my experience pit bulls are no more dog aggressive than any other dog. It seems that every time I walk my pit bull there is always at least one dog that growls at him or is barking and ready to attack and these dogs are of various breeds. The fact that pit bulls are generalized as DA is complete nonsense as far as i'm concerned. It all depends on the dog. People need to stop the generalizations. These stereotypes are the reason for breed specific legislation which ends up getting great, harmless family dogs rounded up and euthanized. Stop blaming Pit Bulls.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I haven't read every part of this thread and I admit that. But here's my thoughts:

Pit bulls and other breeds prone to dog aggression do not belong in dog parks in general. There may be some "dog parks" that are more like giant off-leash forests that are fine for adult dogs that haven't shown any DA tendencies. But the average dog park is not suited to them. 
It doesn't matter if another dog is the aggressor if the pit bull is the one that finishes the fight. Don't put your dog in that situation. Don't set them up for failure. 

Dog aggression has jack to do with human aggression, unless the human sticks a hand between two fighting dogs. Pit bulls and bully breeds are some of the most loving and caring and gentle with humans of all the dog breeds I've met. Their dog aggression level can vary WIDELY but as terriers, they are pretty tenacious when they do get going at a dog or a cat or a small prey animal. 

There are plenty of breeders still breeding FOR dog aggression unfortunately and then there are additional breeders that are breeding for health and soundness and human friendliness and accept that dog aggression is a part of the breed. 

I do agree that many breeds can be dog aggressive, but given the combination of the pit bull's tendency towards DA and the political and legal climate regarding such dogs, discretion is the better part of valor -- as in, error on the side of caution when it comes to other dogs and instead show the public what a wonderful companion a pit bull can be.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> My replies are in red


All dogs are capable of starting a fight, the only reason a pitbull causes so much damage is because the way there jaw is (square, allowing a stronger bite)


pitbulls are not bred to be like what everyone thinks they are anymore. any one should be able to take their dog to the dog park, id rather a rule of 
"all pits should wear muzzles" instead of all pits should be BANNED

they were not bred to fight, as already said they were created. over the years this aggression has been bred out by REPUTABLE breeders who actually care for the wellness
of the breed.


and i never said you specifically, it was directed to people who do. i have owned bully breeds also in the past, when i lived in the states, and theyre amazing amazing dogs.
and they shouldnt have to tolerate any rude behaviour from a dog, no dog should. a dog reacting to rude behaviour is misjudged as aggression waaay to often. 

well no one is saying theyre good? all breeds have breed traits but its still a dooog, it still stands on 4 lags has a tail and does its buisness in a backyard. 
how is comparing dogs to humans dumb? a child will have the traits of their parents, who has the traits of their parents so on and so on. 
they may not be bred for specific tasks but you can bet that theyll carry out the traits just as dogs do. and being prepared is different.
being prepared is different than being negative. when packing for a trip some will say " i have to bring lots of clothes cause theyll get ripped and dirty and blah blah blah"
is different than saying "i need to bring lots of clothes just in case something happens" 
i ride horses, if im sitting on my hore saying "im going to fall off, hes going to refuse, hes going to buck" well guess whats going to happen.
if im sitting on my horse and think "im going to ride strong, keep my leg on, look up, keep a short rain and sit tall ill be good" than if something does happen, im prepared
and i didnt have to think all negative about it.

again, no one said they were good dogs. and people who own those dogs FEEL separate from society because everytime they go out they get dirty looks because they own a pit. 

i acknowledge it too, i know its possible i know it happens, but i also acknowledge why most of them happen (idiotic owners)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> pitbulls are not bred to be like what everyone thinks they are anymore. any one should be able to take their dog to the dog park, id rather a rule of
> "all pits should wear muzzles" instead of all pits should be BANNED
> 
> they were not bred to fight, as already said they were created. over the years this aggression has been bred out by REPUTABLE breeders who actually care for the wellness
> of the breed.


Muzzles can be a disaster at a dog park. Muzzled dogs can still cause injury, muzzled dogs can't really interact normally and muzzles can fail (break or dislodge). While useful in many contexts, if a dog needs to wear a muzzle (excluding those wearing them to prevent eating rocks or such) then he isn't dog park material, regardless of breed. Whether pits should be banned or not from a dog park is up to the dog park's owner but I think for the "typical" dog park (a few acres with many dogs interacting) that a pit bull owner should not take them there. Dog parks consisting of many acres with minimal interaction between dogs, basically off-leash hiking areas, are a different story where good judgment and knowing one's dog is the key. 

Many pit bull type dogs are still being bred for dog fighting. Whether reputable breeders should or should not breed away from dog aggression is a whole nother debate that I'm not going to step into. 

I get a few dirty looks with the pits but I also get a ton of appreciation and compliments. But then, the pits are on a 4-6 ft leash, on a secure harness and generally walking nicely. Even when one of them is acting a fool or dog aggressive, people can see that I have a hold on my dog and am moving the dog away from the issue in a controlled manner. 

There are idiotic owners, I agree, but there are tons of responsible owners too. They just never make the news. The media of course reports all attacks from ANY large short haired dog as pit bull attacks and even a few dogs that are nothing like that-- one I can recall clearly (and provide links to) was a SHELTIE that was initially called a "pit bull" in the media.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Except, pits were CREATED to fight, and kill, other dogs. That is a fact that needs to be addressed. This is what they were bred for. To fight, and kill, other dogs. They have for many, many moons, and still are to this day. It was illegal when it started and it is illegal now, and yet it is still going on. They have many many many many years of dog aggression bred into them. The same way a border collie has many many many many years of herding instincts bred into them.
> 
> And this is a horrible example of your point, but a great example of why genetics play a huge part in how a dog behaves. Daddy and Junior suffered. They were subject to the hands of a man that thinks you should physically and mentally intimidate dogs to get them to obey.
> And, if you watch Pit Bulls and Parolees, you will see Tia has a whhooolllleeeee big section for dog aggressive dogs. A whole big section.
> ...


these dogs were created to fight and kill and yeah whatever, but everyone is also missing the fact that breeders are out there busting their a** to produce quality dogs with amazing temperaments. this fact has not been overlooked, every other fact has.be
and exactly, those dogs suffered but now they are amazing amazing dogs. all it takes it a little bit of hope for this breed. Tia acknowledges these dogs past. she acknowledges what they were bred for. she rescues them for godsakes of course every dog that walks in is going to be troubled. but its what she makes of the breed, she believes in them and turns them into wonderful and amazing dogs.



HollowHeaven said:


> I'm sorry. Have you seen how many pit breeders there are? Do you know how many pits are for free/sale on kijiji, craigslist and puppyfind right now? How many are sold in petshops and through papers?
> Yes, responsible breeders are busting their ass to breed out the dog aggression, but it is a deeply rooted instinct. It's not that easy.


you obviously didnt read what i said. i acknowledged the byb and how annoying they are and how much i just want to wring their necks because theyre all idiots and a**holes on kijiji and craigslist are the ones who ruin the breed. Give credit where its due, to the people who work hard to get this breed on their feet, and the people of kijiji and CL just ruin it. they throw it all out, they pretty much throw up on it. i doubt that guy who owned the pitbull got him from a reputable breeder, because reputable breeders would not want a dog like like from them out their.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Shell said:


> Muzzles can be a disaster at a dog park. Muzzled dogs can still cause injury, muzzled dogs can't really interact normally and muzzles can fail (break or dislodge). While useful in many contexts, if a dog needs to wear a muzzle (excluding those wearing them to prevent eating rocks or such) then he isn't dog park material, regardless of breed. Whether pits should be banned or not from a dog park is up to the dog park's owner but I think for the "typical" dog park (a few acres with many dogs interacting) that a pit bull owner should not take them there. Dog parks consisting of many acres with minimal interaction between dogs, basically off-leash hiking areas, are a different story where good judgment and knowing one's dog is the key.
> 
> Many pit bull type dogs are still being bred for dog fighting.  Whether reputable breeders should or should not breed away from dog aggression is a whole nother debate that I'm not going to step into.
> 
> ...


i know a muzzled dog can still cause injury, but theres no way a dog can kill another dog if theyre wearing a muzzle. muzzled dogs c an interact fine, ive thrown a muzzle on some dogs at a shelter and taken them to dog parks and they play and run round and are fine. and i dont use those crappy muzzles that can come off easily. so im confused, a dog who needs to wear a muzzle shouldnt be aloud to socialize? id rather be told "next time you come please put a muzzle on him" instead of :youre banned and you can never come back because your dog is this breed"

sadly, yes they are. but if someone wants a dog that was bred to fight then they obviously shouldnt own a dog period. Pit bulls arent a dog for "novice" dog owners. they require an experienced dog owner, but thats a whole other problem of owners getting dogs there is no way theyd ever be able to handle. and what reputable breeder would not breed away from aggression? its possible.. it was bred out of the doberman, in all my years i havent been around an aggressive doberman, even the poorly bred ones werent that bad. but then again i never met a milled dog (kimbertal, hoyyt, family dobes ect..)

there are TONS of responsible owners, but sadly some people cant think that there are good pits out there (as a generalization)


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> I'm sorry. Have you seen how many pit breeders there are? Do you know how many pits are for free/sale on kijiji, craigslist and puppyfind right now? How many are sold in petshops and through papers?
> Yes, responsible breeders are busting their ass to breed out the dog aggression, but it is a deeply rooted instinct. It's not that easy.


 When you breed away from Da in the dogs you breed away other desirable qualities in the Pit bull, there is a reason apbts and asts are very different temperment wise and I prefer the APBT. Breeding away from da will only turn them all into amstaffs..plenty of responsible breeders are not breeding away from da, they aren't breeding for it either but it's going to stick around for as long as their are apbts. Breeding away from da is not the answer proper breed management is the answer...removing da will change the entire breed.just like if we bred away DA, and the aloofness in an Akita we would change the entire Akita breed in many other ways


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> i know a muzzled dog can still cause injury, but theres no way a dog can kill another dog if theyre wearing a muzzle. muzzled dogs c an interact fine, ive thrown a muzzle on some dogs at a shelter and taken them to dog parks and they play and run round and are fine. and i dont use those crappy muzzles that can come off easily. so im confused, a dog who needs to wear a muzzle shouldnt be aloud to socialize? id rather be told "next time you come please put a muzzle on him" instead of :youre banned and you can never come back because your dog is this breed"


There are many ways to socialize that don't involve a dog park. Dogs that are selectively aggressive can still socialize with chosen dog buddies or through careful introductions. 

What I mean by saying that a dog that NEEDS a muzzle (not a dog being asked to wear a muzzle due to breed but one that actually needs a muzzle due to his own temperament) isn't dog park material is that a dog who is aggressive to the point of needing a muzzle is HIGHLY unlikely to be enjoying being at a dog park. He is probably stressed and hyped up and way over his threshold for dog-dog interaction. A muzzle may or may not keep other dogs safe (even the high quality ones can fail as can any equipment) but it isn't doing anything towards making that dog have a good time.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> When you breed away from Da in the dogs you breed away other desirable qualities in the Pit bull, there is a reason apbts and asts are very different temperment wise and I prefer the APBT. Breeding away from da will only turn them all into amstaffs..plenty of responsible breeders are not breeding away from da, they aren't breeding for it either but it's going to stick around for as long as their are apbts. Breeding away from da is not the answer proper breed management is the answer...removing da will change the entire breed.just like if we bred away DA, and the aloofness in an Akita we would change the entire Akita breed in many other ways


Its very selective. More selective than your average breeder. They only pick the best dogs. Do they want a submissive pit? No, but they dont want an aggressive one either. Its impossible to remove da, but its possible to breed away from it. Dobermans will always have same sex aggression, but its become less popular within the breed. 

Either way, no responsible breeder would give a pitbull to a family who has only owned yorkies, golden retrievers and own kids under 10. Like that will never happen. 


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> Either way, no responsible breeder would give a pitbull to a family who has only owned yorkies, golden retrievers and own kids under 10. Like that will never happen.


Weren't you just saying that pit bulls are just dogs? 

There is no reason that a committed and responsible first time owner or owner of a golden or parent of a child cannot have a pit bull type dog. As with any breed, and more so for those that may take a little more effort, going into dog ownership with eyes wide open and a willingness to seek out training and do research goes a long way. A Golden Retriever for example is a fairly high energy dog so an owner would likely be used to regular walks and runs and not be surprised by a pit's exercise needs.

Children? Well, I discourage people with very young children (under 2 or 3) from almost any dog as their time is so limited. But a 7 or 8 or 9 year old? Pit bulls are generally great with children. Sturdy, tolerant, playful, eager to learn, easy to groom-- all good traits for houses with kids. ANY dog needs supervision with children, that part has nothing to do with breed.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> Its very selective. More selective than your average breeder. They only pick the best dogs. Do they want a submissive pit? No, but they dont want an aggressive one either. Its impossible to remove da, but its possible to breed away from it. Dobermans will always have same sex aggression, but its become less popular within the breed.
> 
> Either way, no responsible breeder would give a pitbull to a family who has only owned yorkies, golden retrievers and own kids under 10. Like that will never happen.
> 
> ...


 What are you talking about? I'm not saying you can't breed away from da, i am saying that breeding away from da is breeding away from part of what makes a pit bull a pit bull. Like i said when you breed away from that you get an Amstaff! Not saying they aren't a great choice for some people, but that's like trying to breed the terrier from the Jack Russell, that'd just be a sad sad thing

And as far as a family with yorkies and goldens and little kids, if they KNEW how to manage the dogs, i don't see why they couldn't own an APBT..


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Shell said:


> Weren't you just saying that pit bulls are just dogs?
> 
> There is no reason that a committed and responsible first time owner or owner of a golden or parent of a child cannot have a pit bull type dog. As with any breed, and more so for those that may take a little more effort, going into dog ownership with eyes wide open and a willingness to seek out training and do research goes a long way. A Golden Retriever for example is a fairly high energy dog so an owner would likely be used to regular walks and runs and not be surprised by a pit's exercise needs.
> 
> Children? Well, I discourage people with very young children (under 2 or 3) from almost any dog as their time is so limited. But a 7 or 8 or 9 year old? Pit bulls are generally great with children. Sturdy, tolerant, playful, eager to learn, easy to groom-- all good traits for houses with kids. ANY dog needs supervision with children, that part has nothing to do with breed.


Pitbulls are just dogs, but theyre not for everyone. They can have a pit type, but i wouldnt suggest a pit bull. Its not about the needs of the dog, its about understanding the dog. Pit bulls arent for everyone, they require an extreme amount of time for training, someone with young kids (under 10) wouldnt be able to do. 

I discourage people who own kids under 5 to get a puppy, and always recommend a rescue. The part i said about kids under 10 was not really about pit bulls and kids. Parents with young kids usually dont have the time, or experience to raise a pit bull puppy. I always recommend having at least 2 adult dogs before getting a puppy. 

That is a whole other discussion for me, i feel people shouldnt rush into getting a puppy, no matter how committed they are. It does go a long way, but without experience it means very little. Someone who wants to become a sous chef can look at all different ways to chop up vegetable or meat but it doesn't mean theyre going to be prepared without practising and watching other people. 

It takes time and lots of attention, which is something parents cant really do if they have young children.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> What are you talking about? I'm not saying you can't breed away from da, i am saying that breeding away from da is breeding away from part of what makes a pit bull a pit bull. Like i said when you breed away from that you get an Amstaff! Not saying they aren't a great choice for some people, but that's like trying to breed the terrier from the Jack Russell, that'd just be a sad sad thing
> 
> And as far as a family with yorkies and goldens and little kids, if they KNEW how to manage the dogs, i don't see why they couldn't own an APBT..


A pitbull will always be a a dog that will never back down. You can't breed the bull out of a pit bull, but not every dog in a litter of puppies will want to eat every other dog it sees.. Do you see where im coming from?

And if i were a breeder i wouldnt look at a young family who used to own a yorkie and say "yeah ill give you a puppy" who would do that. 1. Yorkies are not even close to pitbulls.. Not even close. 2. When would you train this dog? Between work, taking care of young kids and raising a puppy is just.. Its hard, and if these people previously owned a yorkie they have almost no experience with dogs. Id give them one if my retired dogs other than a puppy before they commit to the breed.

Pitbulls require an immense amoun of training because they have to be the "perfect" dog, require lots of time, attention, training and socialization, something a young family wouldnt be able to do. Like i said, if this family really is interested in a pit, they would get an adult before getting a pup. Heck any family should get an adult of the breed before getting a pup


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> A pitbull will always be a a dog that will never back down. You can't breed the bull out of a pit bull, but not every dog in a litter of puppies will want to eat every other dog it sees.. Do you see where im coming from?
> 
> And if i were a breeder i wouldnt look at a young family who used to own a yorkie and say "yeah ill give you a puppy" who would do that. 1. Yorkies are not even close to pitbulls.. Not even close. 2. When would you train this dog? Between work, taking care of young kids and raising a puppy is just.. Its hard, and if these people previously owned a yorkie they have almost no experience with dogs. Id give them one if my retired dogs other than a puppy before they commit to the breed.
> 
> ...


In your scenario you never mentioned whether or not they have prior experience with other dogs, or how much they looked into pit bulls or how much time is on there hands, but i wouldn't just wave my hand and say no to people because they owned those breeds and had a kid.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> And if i were a breeder i wouldnt look at a young family who used to own a yorkie and say "yeah ill give you a puppy" who would do that. 1. Yorkies are not even close to pitbulls.. Not even close.


They're both terriers. They have more in common than you think.



> if these people previously owned a yorkie they have almost no experience with dogs.


Why? Because it's a toy dog? If they'd owned a golden or a lab, would you say the same thing? That's ridiculous. A dog is a dog. If you've owned a dog, you have some dog experience. I feel like pits are actually more human-friendly than yorkies. I wouldn't turn a prospective pit owner down just because they'd "only" owned a yorkie before.



> Pitbulls require an immense amount of training because they have to be the "perfect" dog, require lots of time, attention, training and socialization, something a young family wouldnt be able to do.


Funny, my brother and his girlfriend and their five-year-old daughter have a pit bull. They haven't had any problems with her, and my brother's not the best trainer. She does need a lot of attention and exercise, but that pit bull is a lot less trouble than my 18 lb Alaskan Klee Kai, who would happily bite the hell out of a screeching, running kid if I let him. 

You seem to have a real fondness for generalizations.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

Why does only owning a Yorkie preclude somebody from being an appropriate home for a pit? I've only owned a Shih Tzu/toy poodle mix on my own, but I'm pretty sure I could handle an average Pit. They are dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LoMD13 said:


> Why does only owning a Yorkie preclude somebody from being an appropriate home for a pit? I've only owned a Shih Tzu/toy poodle mix on my own, but I'm pretty sure I could handle an average Pit. They are dogs.


Because in magical la-la land toy breeds aren't real dogs and yorkies aren't terriers.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Because in magical la-la land toy breeds aren't real dogs and yorkies aren't terriers.


Of course, they're little dolls who don't do nothin.

And I agree with pretty much everything that Adjecyca1 and everyone else has said.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> They're both terriers. They have more in common than you think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uhm yes because its a toy dog. Not many people train yorkies as they would a pit. Ex: a jumping yorkie is cute , a jumping pitbull is not. I think i would turn them down if they came in and said "the only dog ive ever owned was a yorkie" id be asking them a hell of a lot more questions than the person whos owned lots if dogs. 

And thats my point. If an owner can provide the time and determination and training, all is fine. But how old is the pitbull? If its a puppy, kudos to him. But lots if families would struggle.

And yes, yes i do


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

LoMD13 said:


> Why does only owning a Yorkie preclude somebody from being an appropriate home for a pit? I've only owned a Shih Tzu/toy poodle mix on my own, but I'm pretty sure I could handle an average Pit. They are dogs.


My point was someone would be used to owning a small dog. Small dogs almost always get away with things big dogs wouldnt. If you don't let your small dog do something you wouldn't want a large dog doing than i seriously respect you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Trillian said:


> Of course, they're little dolls who don't do nothin.


I have dogs at 12, 15, 20, 25, and 90+ lbs. 

You wanna guess who my problem child AND star pupil are? 

Also, frankly, yorkies are 10 times the terriers my rat terriers are. They are some SERIOUS little dogs. I kind of boggle that there are people out there who don't know that.



Doglover65 said:


> My point was someone would be used to owning a small dog. Small dogs almost always get away with things big dogs wouldnt. If you don't let your small dog do something you wouldn't want a large dog doing than i seriously respect you.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


...Oh baloney. you realize how many competitive small dog owners we have here? That's just utter crap, and more 'breedist' than anything that's been said about pit bulls in this thread.

AWESOME IRONY though.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Because in magical la-la land toy breeds aren't real dogs and yorkies aren't terriers.


And in magical la la land if you can raise a toy breed you can raise anything 


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

My toy dog jumps up, and I don't bother to fix it because she weighs 7 lbs and it's not a priority to me. 

But obviously if it was a problem, as in the dog was bigger, it would ... Become a priority?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You also like to backtrack.  "I won't give you a pit because you've only owned a yorkie" is not the same as "I might give you a pit if you've only owned a yorkie, but I'm going to ask you a lot of questions."

Also, are you sure that "most people" wouldn't train a toy dog as well as they would a pit? I agree that there are some bad toy-breed owners out there who think that resource guarding is "cute" and don't work to prevent (usually fear-based) aggression, but I also know a LOT of toy-breed owners with great, stable, well-trained little dogs. I also know of a few pit owners with terribly-trained dogs. Saying that an owner of a toy breed doesn't really have dog experience just because their dog is small is ignorant and rude, and also flat-out wrong.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Because in magical la-la land toy breeds aren't real dogs and yorkies aren't terriers.


Chester (75-80 lbs) has met a very limited number of dogs that have scared him off. A Jack Russell Terrier once tried to chase him around the farm, teeth bared and all. A friend's toy poodle rules the roost among several pit bulls. Could the pit bulls hurt that dog quickly due to sheer size difference? Yep. But in terms of training and attention and such, the pits aren't a big deal.

Size matters. ANY large dog can do more damage than a small dog. Training techniques though run true across all breeds. I use very similar training on my dogs as I have done for many years on horses. Heck, the basic idea behind good dog training works for kids too. So if someone has been a dedicated owner to a small breed and trained that dog well, I'd consider it a huge plus to adopting one of the pitties. I _might_ be concerned if they had a small breed currently and the dog they were considering was young and/or they didn't have a good management plan in place, but small breed or first time owner in and of itself would not be a negative at all.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> And in magical la la land if you can raise a toy breed you can raise anything
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Dude. I have a 12lb dog. I have a 90lb dog. 

The 90lb dog is two hundred percent easier to live with than the 12lb one. 

Keep digging.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> Size matters. ANY large dog can do more damage than a small dog. Training techniques though run true across all breeds. I use very similar training on my dogs as I have done for many years on horses. Heck, the basic idea behind good dog training works for kids too. So if someone has been a dedicated owner to a small breed and trained that dog well, I'd consider it a huge plus to adopting one of the pitties. I _might_ be concerned if they had a small breed currently and the dog they were considering was young and/or they didn't have a good management plan in place, but small breed or first time owner in and of itself would not be a negative at all.


Oh, I agree the size matters. I just find it laughable that they consider yorkies easy and pits hard. For one thing all the talk about 'breed bias' from them, and then taking it all the way to SIZE bias is hysterically ironic and hypocritical. For another, as you said, pits are not hard dogs to train. Terriers and many of the small dogs really, really can be.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I have dogs at 12, 15, 20, 25, and 90+ lbs.
> 
> You wanna guess who my problem child AND star pupil are?
> 
> ...


I know, im guessing your smaller dogs. Thats why i dont own smaller dogs, teyre a nuisance. Serious or not, its like comparing a quarter horse to a thoroughbred. 


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Doglover65 said:


> My point was someone would be used to owning a small dog. Small dogs almost always get away with things big dogs wouldnt. If you don't let your small dog do something you wouldn't want a large dog doing than i seriously respect you.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Erm...that's a big negative. My Pits aren't allowed to jump and neither is my brothers chihuahua. I don't tolerate aggression towards humans from ANY dog of ANY size. None of the dogs are allowed to snatch food from anyone/anywhere. All dogs are trained to walk nicely on leashes and to perform basic behaviors and Tricks. And I know PLENTY of people who are the same way.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> I know, im guessing your smaller dogs. Thats why i dont own smaller dogs, teyre a nuisance. Serious or not, its like comparing a quarter horse to a thoroughbred.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



*Snerk* Or, you know, in the case of a yorkie and a pit, a terrier and a terrier.

(And no, the littlest isn't a nuisance. She's high energy, extremely intelligent, and requires a lot of work, both mental and physical to keep from being bored. Truthfully, the next biggest 'pain' in that regard is the biggest. They have quite a lot in common, but the big dog is SLIGHTLY lower energy and drive.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> I know, im guessing your smaller dogs. Thats why i dont own smaller dogs, teyre a nuisance. Serious or not, its like comparing a quarter horse to a thoroughbred.


Oh man, this keeps getting better and better. I gotta say, my papillon (who doesn't jump up on people and has never so much as snapped at anyone) is the easiest dog I've ever owned, and also the smallest. The smartest, too.

With your whole "pitbull" as one word thing, the inability to even admit that pits were bred to be DA, and the belief that small dogs aren't "real" dogs, I'm beginning to think that you don't know much about dogs at all.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Was the dog who killed the other dog a 'true' pit bull or just a short haired dog with a square jaw? Did the yorkie approach the gate tugging and screeching at the end of flex lead all excited about going to the park? Did the yorkie owner take note of the dogs who were by the gate waiting for her dog to enter? Does the yorkie owner know how to read dog signals and know that the dog on the other side was giving out signals prior to the encounter? These are typical events that happen at the dog park and these are the reasons I do not go to the dog park.

Aside from the dog being described as a pit, it seems there are problems at this dog park that should have been addressed long before this incident, Only one play area for all sizes of dogs to play in being one of them. Second typical owner of a dog who is not paying attention to what their dog is at or doing. No matter the breed it seems this is quite common at dog parks. Whether it is an obnoxious lab, boisterous boxer, or a charging snapping Chihuahua, these trouble makers should be banned from the parks. No, what happens the owners of such dogs are happy to see everyone else leave and that way they have the whole dog park to themselves. 

What I don't understand is why if these parks are usually city owned, the city does not staff them during the busy hours. I know that many cities are in poor financial state but the fees could be increased and those fees can help support a staff. Would owners be willing to pay a little extra to have staff on duty? I know that I would if I was a dog owner who frequented dog parks.

It is a sad story no matter the breeds of the dogs. In the end, it will be two dead dogs because of the lack of knowledge two dog owners showed that day.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> I know, im guessing your smaller dogs. Thats why i dont own smaller dogs, teyre a nuisance. Serious or not, its like comparing a quarter horse to a thoroughbred.


Which horse is supposed to be which breed of dog in your comparison? I've trained off the track Thoroughbreds off and on for almost 20 years. Along with Mustangs, Quarter Horses, Arabians, and others. There are some traits among each, but overall, training is the same. If you are a confident and competent rider and trainer of a Quarter Horse, you can work with a Thoroughbred. It doesn't mean that both will act exactly the same all along the way, just that the ability to read the horse and the willingness to learn techniques carries through to both. Just like dogs overall.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

To be very, very clear about what I am saying: 

When I say 'hardest dog to live with', I mean she is high energy, high drive, highly intelligent and sometimes high strung. The big dog is big, high energy, high-ish drive and overly protective, but kind of a dummy. The consequences of me not working with and training Kylie are more dire than not giving Thud adequate attention, exercise, and mental stimulation. He will get into the trash, dig up the yard, and get nippy in an attempt to play tug, and shove a ball in our faces. He will also knock crap over in my house running around. 

Kylie will climb on the stove, flush the toilet, turn on the water taps in the bathroom, pace, cry and generally behave like a border collie who hasn't seen the light of day in two months, and has far more stamina.

I would rather be bitten by Kylie (little) than Thud (big), but from sheer 'how much effort does this dog take to live with' the little mutt "Wins", hands down. 

The dogs in the middle are mostly just... average dogs, with average energy and intelligence and could be owned by anyone with thumbs and common sense.

The same training methods work for all of them.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Pin me to the cross because i wouldnt own a dog that weigh less than 50lbs.

This is what i mean when i say people who think they can handle a dog and then cry themselves to sleep at night because they dont know what theyre doing. 

The fact is, people who have only owned small dogs then all of a sudden want a pit deserve a huge reality check. I dont care how big or small a dog is, its not aloud to jump, its not aloud to display any aggression and its not aloud on the furniture. 

Someone who has never owned a large dog before is setting themselves up for failure. Before you consider a puppy, OWN AN ADULT. Before i got my dobe puppy i owned 3 dobermans. Best decision i ever made. When i decided to get my first ever puppy guess who thought it be all flowers and daisies to get a gsd because "large breeds are easier to train than small breeds". That was a load of crap. Owning a dog that was considered "dangerous" or whatever was not easy. Any little miss behaviour in my dog, someone told me "its because hes a German shepherd" 

This thread was about why pits should not be aloud at dog parks (which is also a load of crap) and its turned into who should own a pit and who should not. Pits are not for people who would not be able to offer an extreme amount of time and training - hence why i said a young family. 




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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Oh man, this keeps getting better and better. I gotta say, my papillon (who doesn't jump up on people and has never so much as snapped at anyone) is the easiest dog I've ever owned, and also the smallest. The smartest, too.
> 
> With your whole "pitbull" as one word thing, the inability to even admit that pits were bred to be DA, and the belief that small dogs aren't "real" dogs, I'm beginning to think that you don't know much about dogs at all.


When did i ever say a small dog wasnt a real dog? 


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

I don't treat my 7 lb dog the same as I do the 35 lb mutt. they are different dogs and my tolerances for certain behaviors are a bit different. My little is allowed to jump on people. I could easily teach her not to, but there doesn't seem much point as everybody seems to encourage her to jump up so they can reach her anyways. the 35 lb dog is not allowed to jump on me, and she doesn't. 

My little one is allowed to use me as a springboard during playtime, because it's funny and I don't mind. She's allowed to jump up on the table at certain times. 

But she's also mannered enough to walk into a nursing home and sit on 15 Alzheimer's patients laps and let them pet her and do tricks for them. So I must not be doing anything too bad!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> The fact is, people who have only owned small dogs then all of a sudden want a pit deserve a huge reality check. I dont care how big or small a dog is, its not aloud to jump, its not aloud to display any aggression and its not aloud on the furniture.


Funny. I owned large dogs my whole life (including some giants, though not exclusively), then got a reality check from one who topped out at 12lbs. 

Now what?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> Pin me to the cross because i hate dogs that weigh less than 50lbs.
> This is what i mean when i say people who think they can handle a dog and then cry themselves to sleep at night because they dont know what theyre doing.
> The fact is, people who have only owned small dogs then all of a sudden want a pit deserve a huge reality check. I dont care how big or small a dog is, its not aloud to jump, its not aloud to display any aggression and its not aloud on the furniture.


Most female pit bulls will weight less than 50 lbs BTW

People can get in over their heads with dogs of any size or any age. I do agree that adult dogs are often a great starting place- I am very glad I started with an adult dog when I moved from the horse world to the dog world- but even an adult dog can be too much for people or a puppy can be relatively easy. It just depends on a person's commitment.

Some people with small dogs let them get away with a lot of crap. Others do not allow their small dogs to jump etc. Some people with big dogs let them get away with a lot of crap. Others do not allow their big dogs to jump etc. See the commonality here?

I allow the dogs on the furniture. It has NOTHING to do with how well they are trained and NOTHING to do with their size. It is just nice for them to have a comfortable resting spot and I like the dogs laying near me to relax. My house, my choice.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LoMD13 said:


> I don't treat my 7 lb dog the same as I do the 35 lb mutt. they are different dogs and my tolerances for certain behaviors are a bit different. My little is allowed to jump on people. I could easily teach her not to, but there doesn't seem much point as everybody seems to encourage her to jump up so they can reach her anyways. the 35 lb dog is not allowed to jump on me, and she doesn't.
> 
> My little one is allowed to use me as a springboard during playtime, because it's funny and I don't mind. She's allowed to jump up on the table at certain times.
> 
> But she's also mannered enough to walk into a nursing home and sit on 15 Alzheimer's patients laps and let them pet her and do tricks for them. So I must not be doing anything too bad!



You horrible person, you. 

I trained Kylie to jump up so I could grab/attach her leash, and as a step to jumping up into my arms. 

If I teach thud to do that, will it mitigate the issue, or am I just doomed to being an inferior owner with inferior dogs?

(Again: The hypocrisy is killing me: A dog is a dog is a dog, how dare you treat this breed differently, in spite of the purpose the dog was bred for, but I HATE ANYTHING UNDER 50 LBS. Thinking about that, doesn't that include most real pits?)


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Shell said:


> Which horse is supposed to be which breed of dog in your comparison? I've trained off the track Thoroughbreds off and on for almost 20 years. Along with Mustangs, Quarter Horses, Arabians, and others. There are some traits among each, but overall, training is the same. If you are a confident and competent rider and trainer of a Quarter Horse, you can work with a Thoroughbred. It doesn't mean that both will act exactly the same all along the way, just that the ability to read the horse and the willingness to learn techniques carries through to both. Just like dogs overall.


It was a crappy comparison, i should have said that you would never put a beginner rider on a green horse. Thats just asking for a disaster. 

I find training horses is a lot like training dogs, soft but confident. I love horses and i love dogs. Hell ponies are the ones you gotta watch out for, but you aren't going to be laughing when a 17hh horse is bolting and bucking the same way your 12hh pony was. 


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Y
> If I teach thud to do that, will it mitigate the issue, or am I just doomed to being an inferior owner with inferior dogs?


If you teach Thud that, you will probably end up with a concussion from being knocked to the floor. Toppled over in a good way of course.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> If you teach Thud that, you will probably end up with a concussion from being knocked to the floor. Toppled over in a good way of course.


I can not even imagine trying to catch that dog when he jumps. I'd topple like a tree and probably be splatted. 

I do let him jump up occasionally, as an aside. We get some very good bonding in, that way. It has to be by request (ie: it's on a cue), but he's a total suck with us, and turns into a big soppy mess when he's up where he can give licks and get his ears rubbed. Far, far better for me and my back than being crawled on, on the couch, or having to bend over.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

CptJack said:


> but I HATE ANYTHING UNDER 50 LBS. Thinking about that, doesn't that include most real pits?)


50 lbs is a strange cutoff, i think a lot of breeds fall under that that. ACD, JRT? Under 50 lbs so easy peasy?


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Really know how to throw things off topic. 

I find it extremely sad that if anyone. Thinks someone can jump from a toy breed to a dog who requires excessive training is easy.

But whatever. People will do as they please and say as they please (obviously). I've seen it enough ive seen puppies come back to the shelter or go back to the breeder, in kijiji and cl because it was just too much for them to handle. 

Regards to the ACTUAL thread. If your breed is so called dog aggressive, out a muzzle on them. Dont ban them from the park. Such a buzz kill to the pitbulls who are actually well mannered


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

CptJack said:


> I can not even imagine trying to catch that dog when he jumps. I'd topple like a tree and probably be splatted.
> 
> I do let him jump up occasionally, as an aside. We get some very good bonding in, that way. It has to be by request (ie: it's on a cue), but he's a total suck with us, and turns into a big soppy mess when he's up where he can give licks and get his ears rubbed. Far, far better for me and my back than being crawled on, on the couch, or having to bend over.


I wish Lucy was a polite jumper! She digs her claws right into you though like a cat, so she's very strongly banned. I'm not sure how, but I somehow managed to teach her this despite only having owned a Shih tzu toy poodle mix? Miracles Do exist!


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Doglover65 said:


> Really know how to throw things off topic.
> 
> I find it extremely sad that if anyone. Thinks someone can jump from a toy breed to a dog who requires excessive training is easy.
> 
> ...


If you really think muzzling is a cure all then you are more off base then I realized. I've seen a large dog KILL a small dog with a well (or poorly) placed muzzle punch because someone thought the same way you did.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> It was a crappy comparison, i should have said that you would never put a beginner rider on a green horse. Thats just asking for a disaster.


I agree and I think it is a good example of what many people are trying to say about dogs. General familiarity with dogs carries over across multiple breeds just like a solid riding foundation carries over to various horses. The same as someone new to riding might be well suited to a highly trained "bombproof' Thoroughbred aka a schoolhorse just like someone new to dogs might be well suited to a 3-5 year old pit bull with good obedience training.

And yep, ponies can be so mean!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> Really know how to throw things off topic.
> 
> I find it extremely sad that if anyone. Thinks someone can jump from a toy breed to a dog who requires excessive training is easy.
> 
> ...



You did a great job of throwing us off topic, yeah. 

I see a lot of people return dogs for being too much, too. Terriers -of types not pits, who tend to be super biddable and loving- and hounds. Basically really high energy dogs with a stubborn streak. 

And muzzles in a dog park are asking for you to get your dog's butt kicked 19 ways to sunday, for reasons that have been explained. If you have a pit, stay out of the dog park, for YOUR dog's sake.



LoMD13 said:


> I wish Lucy was a polite jumper! She digs her claws right into you though like a cat, so she's very strongly banned. I'm not sure how, but I somehow managed to teach her this despite only having owned a Shih tzu toy poodle mix? Miracles Do exist!


Oh god, the rat terriers are so bad about curling their claws into things. Not when jumping but when playing or patting at you or stretching or whatever. 

Thud, fortunately, just uses you for balance. There was a period when he was smaller that it really, really hurt, but he's reached the point where he can use shoulders to rest on and that makes all the difference in the world. If we can get another inch or so out of him and he can drape his paws OVER them, we'll truly be gold.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

LoMD13 said:


> 50 lbs is a strange cutoff, i think a lot of breeds fall under that that. ACD, JRT? Under 50 lbs so easy peasy?


I know it is, i dont thin its a strange cut off. I just dont like dogs under 50lbs. Would i own one? Meeh, maybe , maybe not. But ill stick to my gsd, dobe and dane


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

CptJack said:


> You did a great job of throwing us off topic, yeah.
> 
> I see a lot of people return dogs for being too much, too. Terriers -of types not pits, who tend to be super biddable and loving- and hounds. Basically really high energy dogs with a stubborn streak.
> 
> And muzzles in a dog park are asking for you to get your dog's butt kicked 19 ways to sunday, for reasons that have been explained. If you have a pit, stay out of the dog park, for YOUR dog's sake.


So many people return dogs because they just thought "cute dog" or "i want a badass dog" i if i had a dime for everytime i heard the second one. 

Ive seen plenty of muzzles in dog parks. Maybe its just my park but no one really makes a big deal out of it. Then again, pits are now illegal were i live. 

And doesnt anyone think its sad that people cant take their dog to the dog park because of the breed it is? Anyone?


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> I know it is, i dont thin its a strange cut off. I just dont like dogs under 50lbs. Would i own one? Meeh, maybe , maybe not. But ill stick to my gsd, dobe and dane
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You can like whatever you like and own whatever you want, but GSD's, Dobes and Danes arn't harder dogs to own and train just because they are big.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LoMD13 said:


> You can like whatever you like and own whatever you want, but GSD's, Dobes and Danes arn't harder dogs to own and train just because they are big.


Not even kind of. Particularly not Danes, whom I would SUGGEST as a first time dog for someone looking for a large dog. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, but I have issues with people thinking "hard to own" is some universal standard, anyway. 

I'd have a hard time owning a lab. I have no issues with my herding breed mutts and terriers.

All about the match between owner and dog.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Shell said:


> I agree and I think it is a good example of what many people are trying to say about dogs. General familiarity with dogs carries over across multiple breeds just like a solid riding foundation carries over to various horses. The same as someone new to riding might be well suited to a highly trained "bombproof' Thoroughbred aka a schoolhorse just like someone new to dogs might be well suited to a 3-5 year old pit bull with good obedience training.
> 
> And yep, ponies can be so mean!


That was were i was headed with the horse comparison, that it just makes sense in my head that a beginner dog owner would go for a more experienced (older) dog. Whether that horse be a thoroughbred or mule. But there is no way someone will put a beginner rider on a horse than requires an experienced rider, or on a young horse. Its just askig for trouble 


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

LoMD13 said:


> You can like whatever you like and own whatever you want, but GSD's, Dobes and Danes arn't harder dogs to own and train just because they are big.


Agreed, but theyre not easy... Well my dane ahaha thats a lie, she was pretty easy


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Trillian said:


> If you really think muzzling is a cure all then you are more off base then I realized. I've seen a large dog KILL a small dog with a well (or poorly) placed muzzle punch because someone thought the same way you did.


Then make a separate area for small dogs. Dont have to jump to the conclusion pits just shouldn't come to dog parks


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Doglover65 said:


> And doesnt anyone think its sad that people cant take their dog to the dog park because of the breed it is? Anyone?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I don't think you'll get anyone to agree with you on this. You shouldn't turn a Pit loose in a dog park just like you shouldn't turn you JRT loose with a group of rats. FACT: Pits are known to be dog aggressive and a grand majority are to some point. FACT: It is ignorance of the breed aswell as dogs in general this is hurting the breed.

Why take an unneeded risk for your dog/s and the other owners dogs? Why feed the media more when something happens? I really don't see how the pros out way the cons. My dogs are PERFECTLY happy only playing with their "approved" friends.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Doglover65 said:


> Then make a separate area for small dogs. Dont have to jump to the conclusion pits just shouldn't come to dog parks
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And this would prevent all altercations how? There are plenty of dogs out there that would have an issue being muzzle punched (even in play). And then a fight starts you have a freaked out, thrashing, muzzled dog and a dog just wailing on him. Good dogs have been ruined mentally by less. You also can NOT control who comes into a dog park. Again, why risk it with a breed not only violently attacked by the media but ALSO KNOWN FOR DOG AGGRESSION?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Trillian said:


> I don't think you'll get anyone to agree with you on this. You shouldn't turn a Pit loose in a dog park just like you shouldn't turn you JRT loose with a group of rats. FACT: Pits are known to be dog aggressive and a grand majority are to some point. FACT: It is ignorance of the breed aswell as dogs in general this is hurting the breed.
> 
> Why take an unneeded risk for your dog/s and the other owners dogs? Why feed the media more when something happens? I really don't see how the pros out way the cons. My dogs are PERFECTLY happy only playing with their "approved" friends.


The idea that dogs NEED dog parks and to socialize with strange dogs is bizarre in its own right, if you actually think about it. I don't have pits, but my dogs NEVEr socialize with strange dogs. Why? Well, three are intact males, and one's a rude, deaf, SMALL, bully-breed, and the other one's tiny and could be dinner for a dog who reacted badly to her. They play with each other and dogs of family and friends. Now, granted, my dogs get off leash time, but WITH OTHER DOGS? Nope.



Trillian said:


> And this would prevent all altercations how? There are plenty of dogs out there that would have an issue being muzzle punched (even in play). And then a fight starts you have a freaked out, thrashing, muzzled dog and a dog just wailing on him. Good dogs have been ruined mentally by less. You also can NOT control who comes into a dog park. Again, why risk it with a breed not only violently attacked by the media but ALSO KNOWN FOR DOG AGGRESSION?


Yeah. This does not stop your dog having its behind kicked from here to kingdom come, because someone else brought their dog in and it took issue with yours. Nor does it address the fact that a muzzled dog is sometimes prone to barrier reactivity and altered body language/communication as the result of the muzzle. Or the muzzle freaking out some other dog. 

Seriously. Why? What benefit do dogs actually get out of thunderdome style dog parks?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> I find it extremely sad that if anyone. Thinks someone can jump from a toy breed to a dog who requires excessive training is easy.


"Toy" refers to size, you know. It doesn't mean that they're basically stuffed animals.  Some of the toy breeds need a lot of training and socialization. Some even need more exercise than large breeds (papillons generally need more exercise than danes, for example).



> Pin me to the cross because i wouldnt own a dog that weigh less than 50lbs.


I guess the "over 50lbs" caveat wouldn't fit in your username, huh?


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

And just so you know I'm not a pit bull "hater", here are my four. Two of which (the two on the right) are selectively reactive. Just to dispel any belief that a pit bull is only aggressive if it's aggressive to all dogs.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

For the record, pits and pit mixes are actually pretty easy to train. In general, They're almost ridiculously eager to please..very biddable. They're also very forgiving of handler mistakes.

Come to think of it, most GSD's and Dobies are also quite biddable and forgiving of handler mistakes. These breeds are so popular in military and police dog work partially BECAUSE they are relatively easy to train.

Want to impress more people? Train something that can be a bit of a challenge to motivate or that questions your every command to see what's in it for them. I'd rather see a beginner with a biddable dog that's bigger than one that requires more finesse or work to motivate, regardless of small size.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> For the record, pits and pit mixes are actually pretty easy to train. In general, They're almost ridiculously eager to please..very biddable. They're also very forgiving of handler mistakes.
> 
> Come to think of it, most GSD's and Dobies are also quite biddable and forgiving of handler mistakes. These breeds are so popular in military and police dog work partially BECAUSE they are relatively easy to train.
> 
> Want to impress more people? Train something that can be a bit of a challenge to motivate or that questions your every command to see what's in it for them. I'd rather see a beginner with a biddable dog that's bigger than one that requires more finesse or work to motivate, regardless of small size.



I would freak out a WHOLE LOT MORE at a new dog owner wanting a jrt than a dane, dobe, or gsd. A LOT more. 

come to it, I'd be concerned more about the jrt than MOST other breeds.

You know who actually does impress me? The person with the beagle from our first agility class. AMAZINGLY well behaved and obedient little dog.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> For the record, pits and pit mixes are actually pretty easy to train. In general, They're almost ridiculously eager to please..very biddable. They're also very forgiving of handler mistakes.
> 
> Come to think of it, most GSD's and Dobies are also quite biddable and forgiving of handler mistakes. These breeds are so popular in military and police dog work partially BECAUSE they are relatively easy to train.
> 
> Want to impress more people? Train something that can be a bit of a challenge to motivate or that questions your every command to see what's in it for them. I'd rather see a beginner with a biddable dog that's bigger than one that requires more finesse or work to motivate, regardless of small size.


Yes yes yes yes yes ^^^^ this this this and did I mention this

I would consider my pits VERY biddable dogs. I have worked with breeds who are not and thank the lucky stars my loved breed happened to turn out to be a bully breed.


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## Ivyrose (Aug 11, 2013)

Just going to throw my two cents in. First off, I have ZERO issue with pitbulls, I'm around them quite a bit at my work so I get to see firsthand how great of a dog they are. I've never had a problem with one. BUT, I do not think they belong in a dog park, why? No matter what we say or do these dogs will probably always have a breed bias about them, and because of that taking them into a dog park is asking for trouble, if say another dog attacks a pit and the pit defends himself and in the process hurts the other dog, do you really think that its not going to be blamed on your dog simply because of breed? Why give fuel to the bias fire by putting your dog in a situation where there's a huge possibility of failure and not always at thr fault of your dog. I really think that owners of pits should know better, for their dogs sake and no one else's, when deciding to own a pit all owners are aware of the opinions and bias about the breed, no matter if its true I would think as the owner you would want to avoid giving fuel to the fire.

And muzzle at the dog park? Really?! This is a terrible idea, mostly for your own dog as its asking for him to be attacked putting him/her in such a vulnerable position, its stupidity if you do this! If your dog is DA don't take them to a dog park, no matter the breed stay away from it! There is alternative ways to exerciee and stimulate your dog enough that he/she would not need the dog park. Goodness.


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## Nyx (Feb 8, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> And in magical la la land if you can raise a toy breed you can raise anything.


My Yorkie is a handful and that's not just coming from me. Her former foster who has had German Shepherds ("real dogs" by your definition) agrees. 

She fetches. She plays with kids. She goes on seven-mile hikes (does not wear her out). She outlasts Labs. She outruns Labs. She does tricks. She eats raw and chews through whole rabbits and ducks. She competes in sports. Clearly, not a "real dog."


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I don't understand why "If your dog is a pit and you take it to a dog park, and another dog attacks it and it defends itself, your dog will probably be put down" is so damn difficult to understand.

I would keep my pit out of dog parks for its OWN well being, plain and simple. I do not advocate blanket bans on anything, but I feel as a responsible owner, it is the right thing to do for your dog.

Also working in rescue, about 85-95% of our pit/pit mixes are DA or dog selective in some way. So yea, it is still very prevalent in the breed.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Warning- Fake dogs below:


miaball by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


Q by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


DSC_1780 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


bad dog by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


DSC_1482 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Toy dogs and their owners.... sheesh. Now way could we handle 'real dogs'.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I LOVE THAT FIRST PICTURE  and she is a gorgeous fake dog


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> I know, im guessing your smaller dogs. Thats why i dont own smaller dogs, teyre a nuisance.


Horrible dog.


zsummer by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

I really invite anyone that hates small dogs to meet Summer. If you can hate Summer well.... there's something really wrong with you. That is the BEST dang dog ever. Sweet, smart, athletic, even tempered, hard working. If you can hate that... then I have no idea what to say.



> Serious or not, its like comparing a quarter horse to a thoroughbred.


What does that even mean!? I've ridden both breeds and a mix of both... what does it mean? I seriously don't get it. Both breeds are pretty darn impressive. I'd take a thoroughbred over a quarter horse to race but have you ever gone to an AQHA show? I have lots of relatives that show and dang those roping and cutting horses are superb.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And seriously, anyone who thinks a small dog can't keep up with or is not as much 'dog' as a large dog based solely on size... watch this. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD-UrHq9tR8


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

LOL, if anyone tries to dispute that Mia and Summer are not REAL dogs... or 'easier' simply because of their size, I don't even know what to say.

I just read through the last 4 pages shaking my head and somewhat laughing. 

To be honest, if anything, I would advise the opposite - those who have ONLY had big dogs and then want a small dog... should beware. Often times, small dogs have more energy and DO require more work, and many folks are hit with a big surprise when they think they're getting this easy little lap dog.

Man, yorkies are SO not comparable to pits. They must not be able to hike:


or play frisbee:


or climb trees:


or swim:


or get along with kids


or romp in the snow




Fwiw, he is so much more dog than my aunts Pit Bull and even my uncles Labs. I don't think either of them could handle a dog like Jackson.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well to be fair, Summer is a ridiculously perfect and easy dog. The other one...uh....


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Well to be fair, Summer is a ridiculously perfect and easy dog. The other one...uh....


Lol, how dare you accuse Mia of such things! Love your dogs.

I should add, I'm not saying that ALL small dogs are going to be harder than big dogs or vice versa, I'm just kind of chuckling at the statements made in this thread. I've known plenty of super easy small dogs but I've also known really easy big dogs, as well. And yes there are certain benefits to both IMO. Having a smaller dog means being more aware of other dogs, they can injured more easily, and if they're really small, watching out for birds of prey and things of the like that you likely wouldn't worry about with big dogs. And I do think small dogs are easier in certain ways... traveling with a small animal is easier than a bigger one, IMO, and there's certain things where size can definitely be 'easier' but not any 'less dog'.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Not a *real* dog either.....:hurt:


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Totally!Fake.









Absolutely unwilling to play with real dogs, too. Too scared of them. :lie:


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh good I'm glad this didn't degenerate into a large dog vs small dog thread. 


Many here know I am not quite as strongly "pit bulls shouldn't be at dog parks" as some people are. But I have some big opinions about dogs going to dog parks in general which apply even more to pit bulls or other potentially DA breeds: 

-No "Thunderdome" style parks. If you're going to take a pit bull to a park, it should be a hiking style with some space - that is, acreage - and visual barriers so there is a smaller chance of ending up with the huge wrestling pack thing going on. And keep moving. WALK your dog there, don't rely on other dogs to exercise him/her (which is pretty much how I feel about dog in dog parks in general anyway).

-No immature dogs. My personal experience with the breed is limited to dogs I meet at work and my hairy pit bull, Pip, but I've heard over and over again from people very experienced with these breeds that some do not "turn on" until they are 2-3 years or even more. I didn't take Squash to the dog park at all until he was about a year and a half old, and although he has been awesome so far he'll be 3 this November and I'm still prepared for the fact that things might change given that he may have something like American Bulldog in him. 

-Learn your dog, know your dog. Take the time to learn how your dog interacts with other dogs in smaller playgroups before going to the dog park. Get some solid training in including a good leave it and recall. And when/if you start going, start going at off-peak times when you are likely to encounter few other dogs - don't go for the first time when it is busy like on a weekend or a holiday.

-Accept that some dogs just aren't dog park dogs, and that doesn't make them a "bad" dog. Maisy is my not-dog park dog. She can selectively be a big fat bully. I find other ways to exercise her, and life goes on. If you're not sure, or if anything your dog does makes you a little uneasy, then err on the side of caution.



A stable, mature pit bull at a well designed dog park is doable IMO but I think a lot of people take a lot of dogs to dog parks willy-nilly with blinders on to some of the possibilities. Which is true for all breeds, but the thing is that some breeds simply have a higher probability of displaying DA. That doesn't make them horrible dogs (which no one is saying btw), it makes them dogs that require extra vigilance and care on the part of an owner and a willingness to acknowledge both potential and actual behavior. 

Some dogs don't belong at dog parks. Because of their histories and past breeding, pit bulls and similar breeds have a higher probability of being those dogs due to the potential for DA. No one is saying they are horrible dogs that shouldn't live. People are saying be careful and take the blinders off, that is all.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Laughing at dogs under 50 pounds....someone tell Boone especially, with his deep hound bark, that he's little!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Laughing at dogs under 50 pounds....someone tell Boone especially, with his deep hound bark, that he's little!


He's fluffy. He can't be a real dog, either.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> Absolutely unwilling to play with real dogs, too. Too scared of them. :lie:


Mia pretty much hates all dogs equally. lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Mia pretty much hates all dogs equally. lol


Kylie does not much care for dogs she does not know and live with. She knows and lives with Thud, so he's cool. She also regularly takes things out of his mouth and is generally just um. Overly self-assured? It's one of the reasons we don't leave them alone. Someday, Thud's going to get sick of her crap.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

sassafras said:


> -No "Thunderdome" style parks. If you're going to take a pit bull to a park, it should be a hiking style with some space - that is, acreage - and visual barriers so there is a smaller chance of ending up with the huge wrestling pack thing going on. And keep moving. WALK your dog there, don't rely on other dogs to exercise him/her (which is pretty much how I feel about dog in dog parks in general anyway).


I totally agree with everything you're saying.

Honestly though, 95% of dog parks are probably thunderdome style. I only know of one dog park somewhat close to me (but still a very far drive, and annoying to get to) that is a similar style dog park to what you're describing and they're very very uncommon from what I've seen.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

CptJack said:


> He's fluffy. He can't be a real dog, either.


He's actually wiry but ginger is fluffier and so is Gemma!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mia likes her select friends and is that way with both people and dogs. A couple of her best dog friends are big dogs but it's always a slow introduction. I find she really does not like terriers- the schnauzers we know, the JRTs, and my foster terrier... not a fan. Loves big herder dogs and usually realizes they can stick up for her when she needs it. 


rf by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I totally agree with everything you're saying.
> 
> Honestly though, 95% of dog parks are probably thunderdome style. I only know of one dog park somewhat close to me (but still a very far drive, and annoying to get to) that is a similar style dog park to what you're describing and they're very very uncommon from what I've seen.


I also agree with sassafras. But yeah, most dog parks I've seen are Thunderdome style. High Park, which is the park I walk in, has that style of dog park, and it's always chock full of dogs. There's no separated small dog section, either. However, High Park also has a bunch of off-leash trails, which are much safer. The main trail is wide and paved, with a bunch of smaller trails branching off through the woods. I have never seen a fight along there. I saw one fight within ten minutes when I entered the Thunderdome portion (without my own dogs. We don't do dog parks).


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Scruffy is not a "real" dog too because she has always been between 42-46lbs?
I'm sure some Ground Hogs, Rabbits and Chipmunks would beg to differ


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Here is my fake dog on a hike with a REALdog(tm)(patent pending):


















She is more likely to stand up to other dogs and less likely to shy away from strange noises, people and sounds than the REALdog(tm). She can also run 3 miles a day when I'm up for the bike ride. The REALdog(tm) is... somewhat afraid of the bike. Whereas my fake dog took right to it.

Though... By your criteria I guess Faxon isn't really a REALdog(tm) either, at 32 lbs... Even though that's within normal size range for purebred huskies.










Fake. All of them.

As for muzzles in dog parks, NO. If the dog is DA it's not HAPPY to be there. It does not WANT other dogs near it. And my dog park bans all DA dogs, rightfully so.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

To ban pitbulls from a dog park is just stupid. 

If someone decides to take their dog there thats fine, if they dont thats fine too. Going to the dog park is a choice, in not saying anyone has to bring their dog there. But i AM saying that if someone wants to bring their pitbull they should be able to. Not every pitbull is going to have dog aggression, some can get along with other dogs just as fine.

Alright so the muzzle was a bad idea, but having a separate area for smaller dogs is a good idea! How could it not be a good idea? Keep them separate. I never said that it will stop everything completely, but that way no one would be afraid to bring their dog to the dog park.

And dobes arent exactly easy to train. Positive training is harder than most people think. Self control is a huge part of it, and if you're the type of person who would yell or spank a dog because it peed in the floor than you shouldn't own a doberman. And dobermans actually arent widely used as police dogs for multiple reasons, its harder and more expensive to find a working doberman. Why? Because they take a loot of training, while it just comes more naturally to a gsd. 

And the whole terriers are harder to train than large dogs thing is something else. Dobermans were descended from terriers, ive owned terriers and trained terriers. I just find that it takes more dedication to train a large dog. A pitbull is a large dog to have a problem with, while terriers are honestly just not that big of a deal if they have aggression issues. 

Pitbulls are not for everyone, they aren't for people who dont have a lot of time to commit to training, theyre not for people who want an all around friendly dog (though its possible, there are other breeds more suitable) 

If your dog is aggressive towards other dogs, no matter what breed they shouldn't be brought to a dog park. But to ban a WHOLE breed is ridiculous. Dobermans have same sex aggression more popular in males but some females can have it too. That doesnt mean the whole breed should be banned from the dog park. Ive seen many dobermans, male and female at the dog parks with no problems. 

Its all about the individual dog. Some pits may carry the DA more than others, but that doesnt make it okay to ban the whole breed. Its stereotypical, why ban how many dogs because the of their "genes". Maybe even have a supervisor who works for the park come, an if they see ANY dog whos acting up, the dog will be asked to leave, instead of banning a whole breeeed. 

Owning "dangerous" dog breeds myself, its the bigger p*** off when someone says "you're not aloud here because you're dogs are dangerous" i was kicked out of a friggin pet smart. I think if dobermans or gsd's were banned from dog parks if loose my s***. Sooo, because of that, i think pitbulls shouldn't be banned. If i were a pit owner and they were banned from a dog park is raise hell, ESPECIALLY if my pit loved going to the dog park

And when did i EVER say a small dog wasnt a real dog. If it has 4 legs and it barks its a dog. I like all dogs, but i just prefer larger dogs. I NEVER said that "small dogs are not real dogs" dont put words in my mouth, find where i said small dogs arent real dogs, or dogs under 50lbs are not real dogs. I have a preference to large dogs.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Kayota said:


> Here is my fake dog on a hike with a REALdog(tm)(patent pending):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When did i ever say a small dog was not a real dog? Like really..


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Scruffy is not a "real" dog too because she has always been between 42-46lbs?
> I'm sure some Ground Hogs, Rabbits and Chipmunks would beg to differ


Id like to know when i said a dog under 50lbs is not a real dog. Like thats ridiculous


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You say that owning a yorkie doesn't count as having dog experience. You say that toy breeds are nuisances, and you compare a toy breed owner getting a bigger dog to a beginner rider getting on a green horse. If you don't mean that toy breeds aren't real dogs, then what on earth are you trying to say?



> The fact is, people who have only owned small dogs then all of a sudden want a pit deserve a huge reality check. I dont care how big or small a dog is, its not aloud to jump, its not aloud to display any aggression and its not aloud on the furniture.
> 
> Someone who has never owned a large dog before is setting themselves up for failure.


Seriously, what are you trying to say? You don't think that anyone who has owned only small dogs could handle a pit? That's a pretty strong implication that small dogs aren't "real" dogs in your mind.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Yeah uh... I got Faxon second and she's a HUSKY MIX and yet the easier dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I went from big dogs to smaller ones. Casper, my 18 lb AKK, is a lot harder to motivate and manage than my 90lb malamute/border collie was (I easily trained that dog when I was 17 years old). My 9 lb papillon is super easy and well-mannered, though. Her only issue is dog reactivity, and even that is only at first meeting -- once she's met a dog, she ignores it. All four of my dogs (I've also had a Samoyed, which was the family dog when I was a young teenager) have been "real" dogs, and I have trained all of them to have the same good manners and skills.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> To ban pitbulls from a dog park is just stupid.
> 
> If someone decides to take their dog there thats fine, if they dont thats fine too. Going to the dog park is a choice, in not saying anyone has to bring their dog there. But i AM saying that if someone wants to bring their pitbull they should be able to. Not every pitbull is going to have dog aggression, some can get along with other dogs just as fine.
> _What happens when another dog picks a fight with your dog friendly Pit Bull, and than the Pit Bull gets blamed and people start pushing for BSL?_
> ...


Replies in red


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Doglover65 said:


> Pin me to the cross because i wouldnt own a dog that weigh less than 50lbs.
> 
> This is what i mean when i say people who think they can handle a dog and then cry themselves to sleep at night because they dont know what theyre doing.
> 
> ...



The funny thing about this.... Before getting Charlotte, my Pit Bull, the biggest dog I ever owned was 15 pounds.

What was that about small dog owners joking themselves if they want a Pit Bull?


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> You say that owning a yorkie doesn't count as having dog experience. You say that toy breeds are nuisances, and you compare a toy breed owner getting a bigger dog to a beginner rider getting on a green horse. If you don't mean that toy breeds aren't real dogs, then what on earth are you trying to say?
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, what are you trying to say? You don't think that anyone who has owned only small dogs could handle a pit? That's a pretty strong implication that small dogs aren't "real" dogs in your mind.


It counts as dog experience, but that doesnt mean that persons an experienced dog owner. I meant that having experience and being experienced is different. And not alllll toy breeds are nuisances, yorkies who yap and pee everywhere are a nuisance. 

And well yeah it's like putting a beginner rider on a green horse, though someone told you how to do all the things doesnt mean its going to go smoothly, just because a beginner rode a bombproof horse or so long doesnt mean that they'll be able to get in a green horse. 

If you have to make your way to a green horse than i think you have to make your way to a younger "greener" dog. You start off with a perfect horse, 2 years later you move to a different horse, another 2 years you move to a different horse, than another 1-2 years you can work your way to a greenie. That is my theory. I guess im a crazy horse lady who carries her horse theories into the dog world, it just makes sense to me. Before you buy a horse, you're going to want to ride it first. If you want to get a project horse your going to want to have lots of experience. 

Small dogs are real dogs, and it is dog experience, but it doesn't make you an experienced dog owner. Riding a bombproof horse is riding experience, but it does not make you an experienced rider.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Elegy on the other board went from an elderly toy poodle (first dog) to pit bulls to border collies. Oh gasp....

I think there's two things you can extrapolate from that attitude.

1. Large dog owners are better dog owners than small dog owners.

2. You can judge what breeds would fit a person based solely on the size of their past dogs.

Sorry but I don't think any of that is true. I wouldn't want a pit bull. It has nothing to do with their size at all.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

But that analogy is flawed because smaller dogs aren't always easier than bigger dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> It counts as dog experience, but that doesnt mean that persons an experienced dog owner. I meant that having experience and being experienced is different.





> Small dogs are real dogs, and it is dog experience, but it doesn't make you an experienced dog owner. Riding a bombproof horse is riding experience, but it does not make you an experienced rider.


If someone has owned only one dog, and it was a German Shepherd, does that make them an experienced dog owner in your mind? Do your statements only apply to small dogs?

I agree that there are varying degrees of dog experience. However, they have nothing to do with the size of the dogs owned.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Doglover65 said:


> It counts as dog experience, but that doesnt mean that persons an experienced dog owner. I meant that having experience and being experienced is different. And not alllll toy breeds are nuisances, yorkies who yap and pee everywhere are a nuisance.
> 
> And well yeah it's like putting a beginner rider on a green horse, though someone told you how to do all the things doesnt mean its going to go smoothly, just because a beginner rode a bombproof horse or so long doesnt mean that they'll be able to get in a green horse.
> 
> ...


Ah but YOU are experienced? I see how this goes. Where is that dogs and egos thread?

Small dogs aren't freaking interchangeable with each other. Not even within the same breed. We've had 7 paps. Someone who had only Rose would have a totally different experience than someone who owned Mia. Someone who owned Mia is a heck of a lot more dog savvy than someone who owned Rose. 

Mia's the hardest dog I've ever owned. My dad has raised lots of hunting dogs and owned working dogs and he has said the same thing. In a lot of ways, Mia's pretty difficult. To me she's easy as can be to live with but I enjoy living with a very busy, interactive, and antisocial dog. 

I don't like the idea that one breed is an 'upgrade' of another. What is 'easy' depends on the owner in question. I would not want some 'easy' breeds because they would not be easy for me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> What is 'easy' depends on the owner in question. I would not want some 'easy' breeds because they would not be easy for me.


This, this, this. 

I would find a beagle or lab VERY difficult to live with (for different reasons). I'd also have trouble with a pit. Not because they're necessarily difficult to live with, but because they dont' fit well into my personality or lifestyle, or what I want and enjoy from a dog. 

The reason the pit is not the dog for me is because I like multiple dogs, don't want to risk crate and rotate, and, primarily, I AM NOT A FAN of dogs who love everyone. My husband is (see also: Bug) but it's not a personality trait I, personally, enjoy. So, you know. No pits - or labs. Also no hounds or husky types, because being capable off off leash work, out of doors and outside fences, is very important to me. It's NOT the breed, it's that they're a poor fit for me.

It really isn't any more complicated than that.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree. I would not be happy with a lab, golden, or pit. That's not because I couldn't train them -- I'm confident that I could train any of those breeds and end up with a fine dog. That personality just doesn't mesh with mine. I would find them easy to train but difficult to live with.

Most people who like that stereotypical friendly family dog attitude would have a very hard time with a shiba inu or a basenji, especially as a first dog. Those breeds may be little, but they are generally standoffish and difficult to motivate.

You really just can't make generalizations based on size alone.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Replies in red


How is that your fault? All you have to do is watch your dog, if you know how to read early warning signs, it shouldn't be a problem.

Dobermans are not suitable as police dogs. Yes dobermans were bred for protection but it still takes LOTS of self control for a doberman to not just bite the guy to protect their handler. Also, dobermans are not suited for extreme weather. Good luck gettig a doberman to chase after the bad guy in the snow, wouldnt even get out of the car. And gsd's and mals have less health problems. So theyre not reeally used as police dogs.

My point will stand strong that a whole breed shouldnt be banned from a dog park because some idiotic people cant watch their dogs


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

As a first time primary owner, I would be much more confident in being able to live with/handle/train a pit than a papillon, No offense to the pap owners on here, I think they're fantastic little dogs, they're just a LOT more to handle than I want to take on, and don't fit what we want size-wise. Same thing with say, a JRT. WAY more than the average owner should be taking on if they have limited experience and would probably cause havoc in most households. 

In fact, as long as I knew they understood the potential for DA and how to manage it, I would be much more comfortable recommending a pit or pit mix to a first time owner than the majority of other breeds.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Elegy on the other board went from an elderly toy poodle (first dog) to pit bulls to border collies. Oh gasp....
> 
> I think there's two things you can extrapolate from that attitude.
> 
> ...


I never said large dog owners are better owners than small dog owners? Im just saying that small dogs are different from large dogs.

You can judge what breeds would a person based on their life style. And if their last dog was very different than a pit that was "perfect" id be skeptical. 


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> How is that your fault? All you have to do is watch your dog, if you know how to read early warning signs, it shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Dobermans are not suitable as police dogs. Yes dobermans were bred for protection but it still takes LOTS of self control for a doberman to not just bite the guy to protect their handler. Also, dobermans are not suited for extreme weather. Good luck gettig a doberman to chase after the bad guy in the snow, wouldnt even get out of the car. And gsd's and mals have less health problems. So theyre not reeally used as police dogs.
> 
> ...


See, the problem is that you can watch your dog all you want. Then boom. Someone ELSE'S DOG is attacking yours all of a sudden. Next thing you know your dog is PTS and breed bans have another example to show how dangerous and vicious 'those' dogs are. Why set your dog up to die because you want to go to a stupid park so darn bad?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> I agree. I would not be happy with a lab, golden, or pit. That's not because I couldn't train them -- I'm confident that I could train any of those breeds and end up with a fine dog. That personality just doesn't mesh with mine. I would find them easy to train but difficult to live with.


Yep... There's a reason I went into the shelter and said "no gundogs, no pitbulls, no scenthounds." different reasons for each one, but. I ended up with Faxon. Gundogs, personality just is not my thing. Pit bulls, because I am moving into an apartment soon. Hounds, my mom has had multiple Dachshunds and while they're nice dogs I couldn't ever live with them full time. I am a herding, toy and terrier person. Plus some working breeds, huskies included, although I wouldn't have gone out of my way to get one. But Faxon is perfect.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> How is that your fault? All you have to do is watch your dog, if you know how to read early warning signs, it shouldn't be a problem.
> _I am not sure what you mean by how is it my fault, and in a dog park, warning signs could happen in a split second before a fight starts.. There aren't always going to be a lot of signs especially with Pit Bulls_
> 
> Dobermans are not suitable as police dogs. Yes dobermans were bred for protection but it still takes LOTS of self control for a doberman to not just bite the guy to protect their handler. Also, dobermans are not suited for extreme weather. Good luck gettig a doberman to chase after the bad guy in the snow, wouldnt even get out of the car. And gsd's and mals have less health problems. So theyre not reeally used as police dogs.
> ...


In red again.. It has nothing to do with not being able to watch your dogs, things can escalate VERY quickly in a dog park, and you wont always have the chance to stop something ESPECIALLY with bully breeds involved


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

ireth0 said:


> As a first time primary owner, I would be much more confident in being able to live with/handle/train a pit than a papillon, No offense to the pap owners on here, I think they're fantastic little dogs, they're just a LOT more to handle than I want to take on, and don't fit what we want size-wise. Same thing with say, a JRT. WAY more than the average owner should be taking on if they have limited experience and would probably cause havoc in most households.
> 
> In fact, as long as I knew they understood the potential for DA and how to manage it, I would be much more comfortable recommending a pit or pit mix to a first time owner than the majority of other breeds.


Paps are pretty easy dogs. Very biddable, which is great. A little hyper, a little energetic. Very needy and velcro beyond what most dogs are.

I have convinced a few people at my training club though that don't want them just by spending time around them. Primarily because of the barking and that they're typically a bit dog reactive. :/ I think barking is the biggest turn off for most people. That and lack of sitting still. Some people came to meet mine from online and Summer wanted in their lap the entire time but would NOT be still. She wiggled for 4 hours. lol



Doglover65 said:


> I never said large dog owners are better owners than small dog owners? Im just saying that small dogs are different from large dogs.
> 
> You can judge what breeds would a person based on their life style. And if their last dog was very different than a pit that was "perfect" id be skeptical.
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Have you not implied quite a lot that small dog owners can't be experienced? And large dog owners can handle more?

I'm going to quote johnny- it's not the size fo the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog. If someone goes from small terriers to a pit bull... that wouldn't be weird to me at all. In fact I know a ton of people with those combinations. There is a person on the other board with a yorkie mix and two pit bulls. Yorkie keeps up GREAT.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> I never said large dog owners are better owners than small dog owners? Im just saying that small dogs are different from large dogs.


In what way?

And how can you imply that all small dogs are the same? That's just as ridiculous as saying that if you can handle one large breed, you can handle them all.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> And how can you imply that all small dogs are the same? That's just as ridiculous as saying that if you can handle one large breed, you can handle them all.



This is what kills me. A pug is not a boston is not a chi is not a doxie is not a rat terrier is not a yorkie is not a pap is not a-


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> How is that your fault? All you have to do is watch your dog, if you know how to read early warning signs, it shouldn't be a problem.


Not all dogs give warning signs. You have NO knowledge of the other dogs at a dog park, nor about their owners. A real dog fight can happen stunningly fast. 

Dog parks are risky for any dog, but for breeds with a bad reputation (which includes Dobermans) it isn't just risky for that dog but risky for the entire breed. There is also far less "innocent until proven guilty" which the blacklisted breeds-- if two border collies fight, it is just a "dog fight" but if a border collie and a pit bull fight (even if the BC started it), it is a "pit bull attack" and runs far too high of chance of the pit bull being PTS as aggressive. Then you end up with more bad media publicity and calls for BSL. God forbid the pit bull bites a human that reaches into the fight, it will hit the news big time which it wouldn't if the dog was a say, Husky.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> In red again.. It has nothing to do with not being able to watch your dogs, things can escalate VERY quickly in a dog park, and you wont always have the chance to stop something ESPECIALLY with bully breeds involved


Of course a doberman can do it, i never said they cant. They can absolutely do it and theyre very good at it, you don't need to tell me i already know. But i also know that there are reasons why they aren't popular in the field. 


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> Of course a doberman can do it, i never said they cant. They can absolutely do it and theyre very good at it, you don't need to tell me i already know. But i also know that there are reasons why they aren't popular in the field.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Perhaps i misunderstood you than sorry, i thought you were saying that they couldn't/weren't suitable for it


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Doglover65 said:


> How is that your fault? All you have to do is watch your dog, if you know how to read early warning signs, it shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Dobermans are not suitable as police dogs. Yes dobermans were bred for protection but it still takes LOTS of self control for a doberman to not just bite the guy to protect their handler. Also, dobermans are not suited for extreme weather. Good luck gettig a doberman to chase after the bad guy in the snow, wouldnt even get out of the car. And gsd's and mals have less health problems. So theyre not reeally used as police dogs.
> 
> ...


Lol....



















This one is PERFECT.










...You were saying?


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Paps are pretty easy dogs. Very biddable, which is great. A little hyper, a little energetic. Very needy and velcro beyond what most dogs are.
> 
> I have convinced a few people at my training club though that don't want them just by spending time around them. Primarily because of the barking and that they're typically a bit dog reactive. :/ I think barking is the biggest turn off for most people. That and lack of sitting still. Some people came to meet mine from online and Summer wanted in their lap the entire time but would NOT be still. She wiggled for 4 hours. lol
> 
> ...


As to why i PREFER late dogs. Ive owned small dogs honestly, but i prefer large dogs. I never said someone is less of an owner because they've owned small dogs.

And actually i havent implied that, if i think something ill say it not "imply it". Theyre both dog owners no matter i your dog is small or large or medium. But someone who rides ponies is just as good as someone someone who rides late horses, but if they were to switch horses it would be a little comical because they both are used to something different. You can't treat a pony like a horse and you can't treat a horse like a pony, but that doesnt mean the people who ride them are less of a rider or more of a rider. 

Like i said if someone wants to go from a small dog to a large dog fine. But can they provide the space, the exercise, the money to feed them and their vet bills, the time to train them. Not one is easier or harder, but theyre different, dry different. Every breed is different so to say someone who owned a yorkie can easily own a pit. Thats not true, someone who is determined, active and "alpha" can own a pit. 


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Lol....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really.. Did you not read what i said? No doberman can work 9-5 hours in the freezing cold. Dobermans have so many health problems, i wouldnt want a dog knowing they could drop from dcm at any time. Also i dont want to spend a ridiculous amount of money when i can just go with another breed. Thanks for the pictures of dobermans playin in snow though..?


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Perhaps i misunderstood you than sorry, i thought you were saying that they couldn't/weren't suitable for it


They are extremely well suited for it, hell theyre perfect for it. But there are lots of reasons why they aren't used often.



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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Your words were "dobermans are not suited for extreme weather, good luck getting them to chase a bad guy in the snow. WOULDN'T EVEN GET OUT OF THE CAR." 

Seriously, stop back tracking. And quite frankly? Your comments about people who only own small dogs couldn't handle a large dog or a pit is quite insulting.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Your words were "dobermans are not suited for extreme weather, good luck getting them to chase a bad guy in the snow. WOULDN'T EVEN GET OUT OF THE CAR."
> 
> Seriously, stop back tracking. And quite frankly? Your comments about people who only own small dogs couldn't handle a large dog or a pit is quite insulting.


Theyre not suited for extreme weather, i never said they weren't suited for police work. Honestly, none of my dobermans would have gotten out of the car, and a lot of doberman owner would jokingly agree. It was a joke, jeez. 

Oh immmm insulting? Excuse me... 

And I've said enough about small dogs vs big dog. Read what i said so i dont have to keep repeating myself. 


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Doglover65 said:


> To ban pitbulls from a dog park is just stupid.
> 
> If someone decides to take their dog there thats fine, if they dont thats fine too. Going to the dog park is a choice, in not saying anyone has to bring their dog there. But i AM saying that if someone wants to bring their pitbull they should be able to. Not every pitbull is going to have dog aggression, some can get along with other dogs just as fine.
> 
> Alright so the muzzle was a bad idea, but having a separate area for smaller dogs is a good idea! How could it not be a good idea? Keep them separate. I never said that it will stop everything completely, but that way no one would be afraid to bring their dog to the dog park.


Haven't read past this point, so don't know if it's been addressed...

Doglover, I thought the OP was saying the same thing when I first started reading the thread. I disagreed - saying that I thought banning pits from dog parks was akin to BSL. I have seen plenty of pits at multiple dog parks I have been to, and can't remember a single incident with them. Adjecyca responded, and if you'll read back through those posts, she (I assume it's a girl - sorry if not! lol) seems to be saying NOT that pit bulls should be banned, but that as a responsible pit bull owner, it would not be the best idea to take that breed dog to a dog park (with multiple examples why).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, so much backtracking. And you don't need to be "alpha" to own a pit. Not only was all of that alpha stuff disproved years ago (it was based on flawed wolf studies done in the 1940s), but pits don't need a firm hand. As people have mentioned, they are a generally biddable, people-friendly breed. They want to please their owners. Have you ever owned one? You don't seem to know much about them, or about small breeds.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

MyCharlie said:


> Haven't read past this point, so don't know if it's been addressed...
> 
> Doglover, I thought the OP was saying the same thing when I first started reading the thread. I disagreed - saying that I thought banning pits from dog parks was akin to BSL. I have seen plenty of pits at multiple dog parks I have been to, and can't remember a single incident with them. Adjecyca responded, and if you'll read back through those posts, she (I assume it's a girl - sorry if not! lol) seems to be saying NOT that pit bulls should be banned, but that as a responsible pit bull owner, it would not be the best idea to take that breed dog to a dog park (with multiple examples why).


My comments werent really directed at them, but to all the other people who were saying they should be banned


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> My comments werent really directed at them, but to all the other people who were saying they should be banned
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Why then at no point did you agree that bringing a pit to a dog park would generally be a bad idea?


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Doglover65 said:


> My comments werent really directed at them, but to all the other people who were saying they should be banned


I'm not going to read back through 9 pages, but I don't believe ANYONE said that they should be banned. Shouldn't go? Yes. Bad idea? Yes. Banned? No. 

And actually, quite a few people on here don't like dog parks no matter WHAT dog you bring, so I assume that that has an influence to begin with (which I disagree with - I love the dog park), but if that's their opinion, then that's their opinion. People have also said that NO bully type breeds should go to dog parks, that it's not the smartest move as a responsible owner. Again, they didn't say they should be outright banned.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> And if i were a breeder i wouldnt look at a young family who used to own a yorkie and say "yeah ill give you a puppy" who would do that. 1. Yorkies are not even close to pitbulls.. Not even close. 2. When would you train this dog? Between work, taking care of young kids and raising a puppy is just.. Its hard, and if these people previously owned a yorkie they have almost no experience with dogs.


Here you are saying that if someone has only owned a yorkie, that barely counts as dog experience, and they couldn't handle a pit bull.



Doglover65 said:


> Uhm yes because its a toy dog. Not many people train yorkies as they would a pit. Ex: a jumping yorkie is cute , a jumping pitbull is not. I think i would turn them down if they came in and said "the only dog ive ever owned was a yorkie" id be asking them a hell of a lot more questions than the person whos owned lots if dogs.


Again, you assume that owners of small breeds don't properly train their dogs and that a pit would walk all over them.



Doglover65 said:


> I know, im guessing your smaller dogs. Thats why i dont own smaller dogs, teyre a nuisance. Serious or not, its like comparing a quarter horse to a thoroughbred.


Here you say that all small dogs are nuisances.



Doglover65 said:


> Pin me to the cross because i wouldnt own a dog that weigh less than 50lbs.
> 
> This is what i mean when i say people who think they can handle a dog and then cry themselves to sleep at night because they dont know what theyre doing.
> 
> ...


Here you say that anyone who goes from a small dog to a large one is dooming themselves to failure.



Doglover65 said:


> I find it extremely sad that if anyone. Thinks someone can jump from a toy breed to a dog who requires excessive training is easy.


Here you say that small dogs don't require excessive training. Toy breeds are all "easy" and don't prepare people for owning larger dogs.



Doglover65 said:


> And when did i EVER say a small dog wasnt a real dog. If it has 4 legs and it barks its a dog. I like all dogs, but i just prefer larger dogs. I NEVER said that "small dogs are not real dogs" dont put words in my mouth, find where i said small dogs arent real dogs, or dogs under 50lbs are not real dogs. I have a preference to large dogs.


You don't have to state something explicitly to be saying it.



Doglover65 said:


> It counts as dog experience, but that doesnt mean that persons an experienced dog owner. I meant that having experience and being experienced is different. And not alllll toy breeds are nuisances, yorkies who yap and pee everywhere are a nuisance.


Here you backtrack on your earlier statement that all small dogs are nuisances. 



> And well yeah it's like putting a beginner rider on a green horse, though someone told you how to do all the things doesnt mean its going to go smoothly, just because a beginner rode a bombproof horse or so long doesnt mean that they'll be able to get in a green horse.
> 
> ...
> 
> Small dogs are real dogs, and it is dog experience, but it doesn't make you an experienced dog owner. Riding a bombproof horse is riding experience, but it does not make you an experienced rider.


Again you say that owning small dogs does not prepare you for owning a large one. If you're not trying to say that small dogs aren't real dogs, maybe you need to work on expressing yourself more clearly.



Doglover65 said:


> I never said large dog owners are better owners than small dog owners? Im just saying that small dogs are different from large dogs.


In what way, besides size?



Doglover65 said:


> As to why i PREFER late dogs. Ive owned small dogs honestly, but i prefer large dogs. I never said someone is less of an owner because they've owned small dogs.


...except you totally did, in the first couple of posts I quoted.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Crantastic: That's exactly what I WANTED to do... I just didn't have the energy to actually do it, thank you! Haha.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It's actually easy! I don't think that most people realize this, but while you're going through a thread, you can click that little icon in the bottom right of posts -- the one that looks like a speech bubble with quotation marks in it -- on every post you're eventually going to quote. When you get to the end of the thread and push the "reply to thread" button, it will have collected all of the posts in the one reply field for you.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> It's actually easy! I don't think that most people realize this, but while you're going through a thread, you can click that little icon in the bottom right of posts -- the one that looks like a speech bubble with quotation marks in it -- on every post you're eventually going to quote. When you get to the end of the thread and push the "reply to thread" button, it will have collected all of the posts in the one reply field for you.


Shows how much I know about forums. Thanks! That will definitely come in handy.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Wow, so much backtracking. And you don't need to be "alpha" to own a pit. Not only was all of that alpha stuff disproved years ago (it was based on flawed wolf studies done in the 1940s), but pits don't need a firm hand. As people have mentioned, they are a generally biddable, people-friendly breed. They want to please their owners. Have you ever owned one? You don't seem to know much about them, or about small breeds.


I owned one a long time ago, and so what if the dog misbehaves your just going to let it slide or just not really do anything when they do something. To me, setting down rules is being "alpha" 
You don't seem to know much about dogs in general ?


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

MyCharlie said:


> I'm not going to read back through 9 pages, but I don't believe ANYONE said that they should be banned. Shouldn't go? Yes. Bad idea? Yes. Banned? No.
> 
> And actually, quite a few people on here don't like dog parks no matter WHAT dog you bring, so I assume that that has an influence to begin with (which I disagree with - I love the dog park), but if that's their opinion, then that's their opinion. People have also said that NO bully type breeds should go to dog parks, that it's not the smartest move as a responsible owner. Again, they didn't say they should be outright banned.


Yea thy have an opinion, but how dare i have my own opinion.. If someone doesnt want to take their dog thats fine as i said before do what you please, but as soon as i said pitbulls shouldn't be banned all hell broke loose. 


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

I didn't read all of this but,

Any dog that needs a muzzle at a dog park straight up should not be there 100% of the time, and I would talk to anyone who came in with a dog with a muzzle. If your dog needs a muzzle to be at a dog park and to be around strange dogs the dog park isn't for you. Go jogging. Play fetch at home. Do training. Your dog is not safe around strange dogs DON'T COME.

Ammy is 37 lbs, she'll probably top out around 40 lbs. she is by far the hardest "small dog" I've ever had. She is very high energy, gets bored easily, and if she's not sleeping she always has to have something to entertain her or she'll cause mischief. We watched a foster dog (50+ lbs) for a couple of weeks and I forgot what it was like to have a low-mid energy dog who had an off switch. One jaunt outside and he'd be done, but that's never the case for Ammy. My hound mix who is also 50 lbs is really laid back and way easier than Ammy. Anyone who thinks "small"dogs are easy and not comparable to large dogs in energy, drive, or trouble making is smokin' crack.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> I owned one a long time ago, and so what if the dog misbehaves your just going to let it slide or just not really do anything when they do something. To me, setting down rules is being "alpha"
> You don't seem to know much about dogs in general ?


No, if my dog misbehaves I'm going to redirect -- ask for a behavior I want and then praise for that. My dogs are well-trained, thank you.

And having rules is just that, having rules. Dogs need rules and they need a benevolent leader. That's separate from the alpha myth. Read this or this.

My training philosophy is more like this and this.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Here you are saying that if someone has only owned a yorkie, that barely counts as dog experience, and they couldn't handle a pit bull.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you have only owned 1 dog, never mind a yorkie, you have little dog experience. So yeah, owning 1 dog barely counts as dog experience (i said ONLY a yorkie, only is 1 dog)

I have yet to meet someone who trains their small dogs properly. So in my experience, yes. 

And most of them are yes, yapping and peeing. I just dont like toy breeds. But obviously people arent entitled to their opinions. 

I actually said anyone who wants a pit and hasnt owned a large dog before is setting themselves up for failure, not someone who goes from small to large is setting themselves up for failure.

Small dogs dont prepare people for owning a pitbull, and most people dont bother to "excessive train" their dogs so its a bit of a shock when all of a sudden they have too. 

Well i feel like i do because if i dont people take it to a whole other level.

I dont like small dogs, most of them are nuisances 

Again i say that owning a small dog is different than a large dog, small dogs are still dogs, its just people like to twist my words 

People get small dogs usually for a reason. They take up less space, less money, and are more suited for they life style. Anyone who wants to switch from a small dog to large dog has to thin of a lot of things before saying they want a large dog. 


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Kyndall54 said:


> I didn't read all of this but,
> 
> Any dog that needs a muzzle at a dog park straight up should my be there 100% of the time, and I would talk to anyone who came in with a dog with a muzzle. If your dog needs a muzzle to be at a dog park and to be around strange dogs the dog park isn't for you. Go jogging. Play fetch at home. Do training. Your dog is not safe around strange dogs DON'T COME.
> 
> Ammy is 37 lbs, she'll probably top out around 40 lbs. she is by far the hardest "small dog" I've ever had. She is very high energy, gets bored easily, and if she's not sleeping she always has to have something to entertain her or she'll cause mischief. We watched a foster dog (50+ lbs) for a couple of weeks and I forgot what it was like to have a low-mid energy dog who had an off switch. One jaunt outside and he'd be done, but that's never the case for Ammy. My hound mix who is also 50 lbs is really laid back and way easier than Ammy. Anyone who thinks "small"dogs are easy and not comparable to large dogs in energy, drive, or trouble making is smokin' crack.


Exactly, dont come. But because i said pits shouldnt be banned from dog parks im the most hated person on the forum... Its a joke really..


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> If you have only owned 1 dog, never mind a yorkie, you have little dog experience. So yeah, owning 1 dog barely counts as dog experience (i said ONLY a yorkie, only is 1 dog)


Again with the "never mind a yorkie," as if they're lesser. And again, what if someone had only owned one German Shepherd? Would that count as dog experience, or would you say that barely counts either?



> I have yet to meet someone who trains their small dogs properly. So in my experience, yes.


Clearly you need to get out more. There are a lot of us on this forum, which means there must be a lot in "real life" as well. 



> And most of them are yes, yapping and peeing. I just dont like toy breeds. But obviously people arent entitled to their opinions.


Oh, you're entitled to your opinion. "I don't like small dogs" is just fine. "Small dogs are nuisances who yap and pee everywhere" is stating an opinion as fact, and of course that's going to be refuted.

And no one says that opinions can't be argued, anyway. People have the right to give their opinion of your opinion. Aren't messageboards fun?



> I actually said anyone who wants a pit and hasnt owned a large dog before is setting themselves up for failure, not someone who goes from small to large is setting themselves up for failure.


What is it about pits that makes them so difficult in your mind? As people who are very pit-experienced have said, they're not really a difficult breed in general. They are very handler-oriented and people-friendly dogs.



> Small dogs dont prepare people for owning a pitbull, and most people dont bother to "excessive train" their dogs so its a bit of a shock when all of a sudden they have too.


What do you mean, "excessive train?" What do you think pits need? 



> I dont like small dogs, most of them are nuisances


In what way? If a dog is a dog, as you've tried to backtrack to say, then can't a good trainer properly train a small dog? How is a properly-trained small dog a nuisance?



> Again i say that owning a small dog is different than a large dog, small dogs are still dogs, its just people like to twist my words


Again I ask, in what way is it different, training-wise?

And you're not even _close_ to being the most hated person on this forum.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> I actually said anyone who wants a pit and hasnt owned a large dog before is setting themselves up for failure, not someone who goes from small to large is setting themselves up for failure.
> 
> Small dogs dont prepare people for owning a pitbull, and most people dont bother to "excessive train" their dogs so its a bit of a shock when all of a sudden they have too.


Pit bulls are really not that hard to train, not that hard to exercise, not that hard to own. A "large" dog means nothing in terms of what owning that dog has taught you-- there is a huge different between the average 80 lbs Lab and a 40 lbs ACD that has nothing to do with size.

A person that is dedicated to being a responsible owner and chooses a pit bull is not "setting themselves up for failure"

Small dogs can be just as difficult to train and exercise as any large dog, sure they eat less food and their crate doesn't need to take up half the room practically, but that doesn't make them any less of a challenge. 

I find training the pit bulls far easier than training my large hound dog simply because they are biddable and eager to learn whereas my hound says "What's in it for me?"


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh come on you are backtracking like crazy. 

Now small dogs are back to being nuisances? Nice. There are dog breeds I've had bad experiences with. I wouldn't want one ever. I wouldn't ever call them nuisances or insinuate that people that owned X breed were less capable than I am.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

wtf is "excessive training"?


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

People get small dogs usually for a reason. They take up less space, less money, and are more suited for they life style. Anyone who wants to switch from a small dog to large dog has to thin of a lot of things before saying they want a large dog. 



-- and some (most) people get small dogs because...they LIKE small dogs. I have a small dog because I like them, not because I can't handle a big one. I put as much time into my little one as I would a Pit Bull. 

[co


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

and just who would make up this judge and jury to determine if a dog is a pit bull or a pit bull mix? If certain breeds of dogs were banned from a city park, overnight this dog would become a lab mix, boxer mix or whatever petfinder.com uses to describe a short haired mutt. 

I get where owners of the pits would want to avoid such parks for fear of their dog would be the blame holder even if their dog did not start the fight. That their dog only ended the fight. It is the same reason I do not take my Anatolian Shepherds to the dog park. It is also the same reason, I do not take my Chihuahuas to the dog park either. My Chihuahuas could easily end up as a Scooby snack in any big dog mouths no matter what the large breed of dog. There are many more things to do with your dogs than to cram them into a fenced-in arena. In the human world to do such a thing is called fight club. It starting to sound like dog parks are turning into the same thing.

I say "Ban stupid dog owners and not the breed" Maybe dog owners should be required to attend training/etiquette classes prior to receiving a dog park tag.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I say "Ban stupid dog owners and not the breed" Maybe dog owners should be required to attend training/etiquette classes prior to receiving a dog park tag.


THIS




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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I just want to add this because I didn't see this mentioned but APBT aren't really what I would consider a large dog. When I get my first APBT I'm going to be looking for something in the range of 30 to 40ish pounds. Although that might be large in comparison to my 15lb dog it's not really all that large.

Saying that, the only issue I could see would be with dealing with DA and that would include NEVER going to dog parks. Regardless if my dog is okay with other dogs or not. It's just not worth the risk especially since I'm planning on getting a legit APBT and not a mutt or a pit bull type dog. Most likely my dog will have previous fighting dogs in its pedigree from back in the day and that's just not something I'm willing to risk. 

It's not hard to prevent your dog from attacking or killing another animal unless you're a complete idiot. Taking a dog that was purposely bred to fight other dogs till the death to a freaking park full of dogs has to be one of the most idiotic things a person could do. Just saying.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Actually, besides their tendency to be DA, which can be managed, I think pits and pit mixes are a great choice for a family's first dog. I know a first time dog owner right now who just adopted a 3 year old pit mix and they're doing great.

They're eager to please, tolerant of mistakes and rough housing from kids, and generally love people. As long as a first time owner is prepared to manage any DA, I think a pit might be a better choice for a first time dog owner than many toy breeds.

I really don't get this attitude that pits are tough to own and require some kind of advanced degree. Except for the DA, most are sweethearts and pretty easy.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> If you have only owned 1 dog, never mind a yorkie, you have little dog experience. So yeah, owning 1 dog barely counts as dog experience (i said ONLY a yorkie, only is 1 dog)


I've only owned 0 dogs personally prior to getting Bae, a rescue collie/husky/shepherd/thing. Zero. I've worked with multiple different dogs of different breeds and have done excessive research on training methods. I've trained and worked with my family's Aussie, my aunt's lab and toy poodle, my grandmother's Daisy dog, my friend's lab/newfie mutt, etc, etc, etc. I've been to and done several different types of training seminars and classes. I also work at a pet store which has one million different dog resources.

The amount of dogs you've owned does not equal the amount of dog experience you have. This is technically my first dog but I would consider myself more dog experienced than some of my older family members who've owned more than 5 dogs of different types and sizes throughout their life. The kind of dogs you've had does not equal the amount of dog experience you have. I went from an Aussie (family dog) to husky/collie/shepherd mutt. Similar size, similar exercise requirement, need totally different types of mental stimulation. My aunt has done labs on labs on labs to toy poodle. Toy dog is harder to own than the gigantic, energetic labs!

Owning a pitbull isn't hard or special. You just have to be aware of your dog. I tell people this all the time. Herding dogs are bred to herd. Don't leave them outside with kids milling around like sheep. Hounds are bred to sniff. Don't let them off leash unsupervised to sniff their way into the street. Retrievers are bred to fetch. Don't throw something and expect them not to chase it down and bring it back. Terriers are meant to hunker down and kill the rats or pests. Don't leave your kid's hamster out to play with the dog! Pitbulls were bred to fight other dogs. Don't let them fight other dogs.

Don't set your dog up to fail. All breeds/dog types have their achilles heel. Put your dog in a situation where you know things can't go wrong. Set up puppy playdates with friends. Doggy socialization in its most sophisticated and safe form.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I have skimmed through all 10pgs and just wanted to put in my two cents. I got a small dog on two reasons. One--my parents finally allowed me to have a dog, but they said they didn't want a medium or large size dog. Also have you looked at the hypoallergenic list? It's not long and most of the dogs there aren't that cute (I look for cuteness first before personality). The great thing about my small dog is that he acts like a bigger dog. I don't feel as if I'm walking a small dog because his personality is that of a bigger dog's. 

My dog is well trained. The people I know who have small dogs are well trained. I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences with small dogs DogLover65. 

I see PB's in two different ways. If I'm walking alone, I'm not afraid of them what-so-ever. I'll even want to walk up to them and ask if I can pet them; they're great dogs. I've worked with them in kennels and none have ever gone after me. Now when I walk my dog and see a Pit, I turn the other way. Why? My dog had a bad experience with a Pit long ago and views them as bad, so actually he's the aggressor. I don't want to see a Pit at all during our walks b/c I know my dog will go into a zone where I can't get him out of yet. 

I have worked in two kennels for a nice amount of years and have never owned a dog until 4yrs ago. What did I do? Nope, didn't get an adult, I got a puppy! I think if the person is prepared and has researched all there is to research, I don't see what the big deal is if they get a puppy or an adult. Either way you're going to learn something.

That was like with hamsters. A person I knew said "don't get dwarfs first, get a syrian, they're better." Really, I don't see the difference. I had dwarfs before I got my syrian and seriously, they're the same. Sure dwarfs are smaller and faster, but as far as basic care is concerned, it's the same exact thing. 

I do agree with you on one area DogLover65. But I don't feel like getting bashed, so I'm going to keep that part to myself.

As far as the original post is concerned, I'm thankful that the dog parks near us have a small dog enclosure and a large dog enclosure because my dog doesn't get along with PB's at all! I think muzzles are cruel unless you haven't trained your dog and know they could do some damage. But maybe I don't know enough about them. *shrugs*


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> I do agree with you on one area DogLover65. But I don't feel like getting bashed, so I'm going to keep that part to myself.


Well now I wanna know what it is...


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> Well now I wanna know what it is...


I'm curious too. Don't you know when you say something on a forum and then say you don't want to give details.... everyone wants to know what it is?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Own your opinions! 

Also, I used to say that my papillon was a "big dog in a small dog's body," but really, what does that even mean? That kind of sentiment still insinuates that little dogs are lesser, that they're different from and inferior to big dogs. My papillon is a dog, full stop.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm curious too. Don't you know when you say something on a forum and then say you don't want to give details.... everyone wants to know what it is? 
^Yes I do SydtheSpaniel. But since I'm not good at typing my words down and people not understanding them, I'm choosing to just I guess...keep you all in the dark. You all have fought over this issue with DogLover65. I have been bashed on this forum before, I don't feel like having another repeat.

what does that even mean?
^I take it as they don't act as if they're supposed too. When I walk Luke, I don't see a small dog in front of me. Heck, I don't even say he's a small dog anymore unless someone is asking if he'll grow bigger.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

How is a small dog "supposed" to act, though? What makes your dog more like a big one?


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

That's a good question, one I've asked myself. I know mine will poof himself up to appear larger and he has confidence and thinks he owns this whole complex so he acts as if he's bigger and badder. Maybe some dogs lack confidence so they stoop lower? I don't know how to explain myself....maybe I shouldn't say that all together. :/ Maybe it's just their personality and confidence that make them act bigger. I call Luke my Golden Coton because he has the personality of a Golden, but is a Coton. 

This isn't making sense is it?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> How is a small dog "supposed" to act, though? What makes your dog more like a big one?


Yeah. Seriously. 

I hear 'big dog in a small dog's body' a ton. It's never made any sense to me. What kind of big dog is it acting like?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> How is a small dog "supposed" to act, though? What makes your dog more like a big one?


Its intangible and very hard for me to put into words... Maybe its the perception that all small dogs are "Yacka**es" or purse accessories that throws a lot of people.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Its intangible and very hard for me to put into words... Maybe its the perception that all small dogs are "Yacka**es" or purse accessories that throws a lot of people.


I think that's a lot of why people challenge it - or at least why I did. 

When a dog is bigger and barking, jumping, untrained, generally a jerk, or lacking confidence, no one says it acts like a little dog. That's usually reserved for them when they're trying to sit in your lap and cuddle. 

Why a little dog is acting like a 'big dog' when it's not doing those things is just... well, the continuation of bias about small dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. Seriously.
> 
> I hear 'big dog in a small dog's body' a ton. It's never made any sense to me. What kind of big dog is it acting like?


I think of that saying whenever I see a small (say, under 15 lbs) dog that is barking and lunging at the big dogs. Not because I think a small dog should act one way or a big dog should act another way, but I have this moment of "Yep, that dog has no idea that he is the size of my dog's head and could be mince meat in a second if he picked the wrong dog" 

Kinda sorta a Napoleon complex comparison? 

I've had tiny dogs run up to and UNDER Chester with no fear. Of course, Chester is like "Hey buddy, watcha doing?" but they truly don't seem to know their stature in comparison to a far larger dog. Not a sign of great judgment on the owner's part if they don't know my dog, but amusing on the side of the dog-dog interaction.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I think that's a lot of why people challenge it - or at least why I did.
> 
> When a dog is bigger and barking, jumping, untrained, generally a jerk, or lacking confidence, no one says it acts like a little dog. That's usually reserved for them when they're trying to sit in your lap and cuddle.
> 
> Why a little dog is acting like a 'big dog' when it's not doing those things is just... well, the continuation of bias about small dogs.


Its a weird complex of, Little dogs go in laps and are just living stuffed animals whilst Large dogs are meant to wrestle and hike and play in the yard. Big dogs are always viewed as more... well, Doggy!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> they truly don't seem to know their stature in comparison to a far larger dog. Not a sign of great judgment on the owner's part if they don't know my dog, but amusing on the side of the dog-dog interaction.


I think this is something slightly different, and I admit I see (and live with) a lot of it. 










The thing is, if you have a small dog who approaches a big dog WITH awareness that they're the size of the bigger dog's head, they're usually lacking confidence - sometimes a lot of it. Granted, you don't turn that lose with a larger dog without supervision, particularly an unknown, but - what's the alternative, exactly? Not criticizing you, because it's amusing as heck to ME, but. I don't know what the alternative is, either.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't say that Crystal is a big dog in a small dog's body anymore. Yeah, she will bark and lunge at large dogs (and she'll jump in front of Casper to defend him), but it's not because she thinks she's their size. I'm sure that she knows she's small. She's just trying to bluff and warn them off; she doesn't want to fight. If a big dog actually bowled her over, she'd be scared. And she's generally a confident, friendly, bombproof dog with people, but those aren't solely big dog characteristics.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

if you have a small dog who approaches a big dog WITH awareness that they're the size of the bigger dog's head, they're usually lacking confidence - sometimes a lot of it.
^I'm sorry Cpt.Jack can you explain that further? How is that lacking confidence if they go up to a bigger dog?

Oh also--I'm taking care of a PB this Sept., I'm going to be asking the owner questions on her dog. But since they are DA as you all say, what if she starts to pull me? I've handled Aussies and a Golden before, but PB's are strong!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> if you have a small dog who approaches a big dog WITH awareness that they're the size of the bigger dog's head, they're usually lacking confidence - sometimes a lot of it.
> ^I'm sorry Cpt.Jack can you explain that further? How is that lacking confidence if they go up to a bigger dog?


I mean if the dog is approaching in a way that makes it obvious that it is aware that the other dog is much bigger than it (to us people) then it's probably uncertain or nervous in some way.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> The thing is, if you have a small dog who approaches a big dog WITH awareness that they're the size of the bigger dog's head, they're usually lacking confidence - sometimes a lot of it. Granted, you don't turn that lose with a larger dog without supervision, particularly an unknown, but - what's the alternative, exactly? Not criticizing you, because it's amusing as heck to ME, but. I don't know what the alternative is, either.


I just meant the alternative of letting a tiny dog (or any dog!) run up to a strange large dog is well, not letting them. While I don't think it is polite to allow a small dog to run up to another small dog, the potential immediate consequences are usually less than if one of the two is a large dog. 
Chester loves small dogs, he seems to think they are all puppies. So he will lay down on the ground, roll on his back, gently nose them and such. But the random small dog owners have no way of knowing this. I'm not singling out small dog owners in this case per se, it is just that I prevent large strange dogs from approaching more quickly because I know Chester is more likely to take offense to their approach.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> I just meant the alternative of letting a tiny dog (or any dog!) run up to a strange large dog is well, not letting them. While I don't think it is polite to allow a small dog to run up to another small dog, the potential immediate consequences are usually less than if one of the two is a large dog.
> Chester loves small dogs, he seems to think they are all puppies. So he will lay down on the ground, roll on his back, gently nose them and such. But the random small dog owners have no way of knowing this. I'm not singling out small dog owners in this case per se, it is just that I prevent large strange dogs from approaching more quickly because I know Chester is more likely to take offense to their approach.


Oh, well yes. That's another issue entirely. Any dog running up to another's awful and likely to end badly. At least likely enough that it is a really bad idea, particularly when your dog is bite sized.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I would rather walk into a room with a pitbull and take it away from it's owner than go into an exam room and take a toy breed dog away from it's owner. 

If a small dog acts like a big dog in a small dog's body does that make a big dog whose is scared of everything a small dog in a big dog's body?

I walked into an exam room last week, to encounter a 190 lb. Great Dane trembling in such fear that he even urinated on himself and all I did was walk into the room to look at him. Luckily, for him the vet who did the vaccines did not just go in there and give the vaccines and leave the room. She spent time before and after the vaccines talking not only to the dog but the owner as well.

Right now, I own dogs whose weights range from 4 pounds to 150 pounds. I will have to say the most energetic is the mini American Shepherd, the most laid back is the female 150 pound Anatolian. While the MAS is constantly pacing and looking for stuff to do, the Anatolian is laying across the porch being a door mat. The MAS picks up on things fast, the Anatolian could really care a less about doing a sit stay and getting rewarded for it. But for those days you just want a dog laying beside you as you sit in the yard, the Anatolian is the go to dog for that. I do not look as size being the issue but the dog itself. There are those dogs who really care a less about pleasing you, life to them is about their pleasure. When your back is turned they are literally giving you the paw. Than there are those dogs who love to learn and are a joy to work with. They are always trying to see what it is you want them to do. It is not about breeds either. It is about the dog itself.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Most little dog 'napoleon' complexes are in my experience fearful responses. They may not look that way but trust me most small dogs realize they are small. They bluff to try to avoid confrontation. 

My dogs are nervous around unknown/new big dogs. It makes sense to me. My dogs are small. They know in a fight they'll lose.


I have gotten SO MANY negative comments about my well behaved dogs. People feel the need to go out of their way to tell me they hate small dogs. Well whoop de do for you. No one ever did that with my big dogs or medium dogs. Never. Even friends and family have to mention that small dogs are inferior or stupid. It's obnoxious and I will guarantee I do more with my dogs and my dogs are better trained than pretty much everyone in real life that has made a disparaging comment. 

Acting like a small dog vs acting like a big dog... makes no sense at all. You have small terriers and those act nothing like a cavalier. Your cavalier is probably going to act a heck of a lot more like a larger spaniel than a JRT. A shiba is going to act totally different than both of those. Toy dogs have ancestry in most other groups. They're not all going to act the same! It's not like big dogs behave the same anyways. Not even close.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Shell said:


> I just meant the alternative of letting a tiny dog (or any dog!) run up to a strange large dog is well, not letting them. While I don't think it is polite to allow a small dog to run up to another small dog, the potential immediate consequences are usually less than if one of the two is a large dog.
> Chester loves small dogs, he seems to think they are all puppies. So he will lay down on the ground, roll on his back, gently nose them and such. But the random small dog owners have no way of knowing this. I'm not singling out small dog owners in this case per se, it is just that I prevent large strange dogs from approaching more quickly because I know Chester is more likely to take offense to their approach.


I will have to agree on you with this. A couple of months ago, a friend and I took our dogs to a benefit for a local shelter. I could not believe how many people allow their dogs to come running up to strange dogs without even asking the owners first. Now if the dogs were off-leash I could understand but, all the dogs were on leashes. No flexis either the leashes had to be 6 feet or shorter to attend the event.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

My dog never runs up to dogs. If he sees a dog, he freezes and waits for the dog to come to him. I'm guessing he's accessing if they're friend or foe.

They know in a fight they'll lose.
^I seriously wish my dog knew this. 

luv mi pets--why would you rather take a PB away from their owner than a small dog?


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I actually used that phrase the other day, just joking though. Sydney met the two aussies that my brother in law owns while they were in town. She hates the male (because he nips at her constantly and jabs his nose into her, and then doesn't take the hint when she growls and barks at him to back off), but she met the new female and puffed up, tail up high and ears perked as high as possible. She was acting like she was so much bigger than she was, in body language. So when I hear that phrase, I think of that.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Acting like a small dog vs acting like a big dog... makes no sense at all. You have small terriers and those act nothing like a cavalier. Your cavalier is probably going to act a heck of a lot more like a larger spaniel than a JRT. A shiba is going to act totally different than both of those. Toy dogs have ancestry in most other groups. They're not all going to act the same! It's not like big dogs behave the same anyways. Not even close.


Yes, this. There's no one way that all big dogs act or that all small dogs act. It's also annoying that good traits like confidence are considered by many to be "big dog" traits, while negative ones like "yapping" or nervousness are considered "small dog" traits. "Big dog in a small dog's body" is supposed to be a compliment, and it seems like the opposite would be an insult... because apparently small dogs are terrible. The only good small dogs are the ones that act like a big dog, whatever that means!


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

because apparently small dogs are terrible.
^Please don't think I said this. I don't explain myself well sometimes. I love small dogs...gosh I have one! 

It's also annoying that good traits like confidence are considered by many to be "big dog" traits
^I don't consider confidence to be a big dog trait. It might've sounded like I meant that, but I didn't. 

I'm tired...good night y'all.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh, I don't think you look down on small dogs. The discussion has turned more general. Your comment was just the jumping-off point for the newest twist.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

I don't care for the phrase, I know it's said with good intentions but I don't like it. My little dog just acts like a dog. A confident, sassy, food hound scavenger of a dog. I'm sure she's very different from Summer, Casper and Kylie because they are all varying breeds with various life experiences. And not a one of them are nuisances.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Not going to lie, I usually say the same thing about my dog. Not that his behavior is not small dog like or that he doesn't know his size. It's just that I've made the mistake of previously thinking of small dogs as being these fragile little things. Obviously that's not the case and I've learned that through my own experiences with my dog. 

At this point it does annoy me that people think of small dogs as being these annoying little things that bark and nip and piss all over the place while they're owners dress them up and carry them in purses. My dog is a little beast and he knows it and he doesn't care about his size. The only time I've ever seen him down right scared of a larger dog was when he met a beautiful mastiff (pretty sure it was a cane corso but the guy called it an Italian mastiff and it honestly wasn't that big, I'm not sure how big cane corso's really are though so idk) Anyways, he literally did not move. The dog sniffed him face to face and my dog was literally frozen in place, his tail did not even move. That's not how my dog acts and I've never seen him do that since. 

Usually he'll go up to any large dog without a problem. Unless I don't let him go up to the dog. If I hold him back he starts growling and lunging like a little monster. I think it's more of a "I want to smell you!" Rather then a "omg big scary dog" or "I want to kill you" type of thing. He's just really determined to get to any dog he sees. At the same time he's not really fond of larger breed puppies and usually can be pretty vicious with them. He has only bit one dog and it was a large puppy. I felt horrible and removed him from the situation immediately.

Forgot to mention, I do call him my little pit bull sometimes lol. That's more because of how he stands sometimes then because of anything behavioral wise. At the same time I occasionally call him my little bunny cause he had this cute little hopping thing he does sometimes. So obviously my dog is confused about his breed and species because of that lol.


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## AkariKuragi (Aug 25, 2013)

Well I've only been to the local dog park a couple times so obviously I haven't seen that many interactions BUT!

The two times I've been I have seen several pits/pit mixes. None of them were overly aggressive when it came to play, at least compared to the other dogs. Everyone seemed to be matching the energy of everyone else. The only times I've seen altercations between dogs was when a husky and a German shepherd had a minor spat, and when a fearfully aggressive dog started something with a husky, but the husky was definitely going to finish it. And then there was overly rough play with a four month old puppy but almost every dog in the park was ganging up on her (there was about six or seven dogs there).

Luckily we have a park that is separated into large dog and small dog sides, since so many large dogs have high prey drive and so many small dogs are obnoxious little instigators.

I don't think it's fair to say all pit bulls should not be allowed in dog parks. It should be based on the dog's temperament. If the dog is fine around other dogs and doesn't play too roughly then why should they be allowed? To ban the breed on the actions of a few is never a fair solution.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

I have a bigger issue with GSD's but if you have a bully breed, the onus is on you to make sure your dog is extra well socialized. If you have one dog park you "can't go to anymore", poor grammar aside, that means your dog isn't a dog park dog.

The Yorkie owner really shouldn't have brought a 6lb dog to a place like that. The Pit Bull owner is an idiot. That your dog plays well with your family doesn't make it a good dog for a dog park. The Yorkie owner should sue him for the damages and petition the city to have the pit bull put down. At least the threat of that will teach him that he's in the wrong.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

AkariKuragi said:


> Well I've only been to the local dog park a couple times so obviously I haven't seen that many interactions BUT!
> 
> The two times I've been I have seen several pits/pit mixes. None of them were overly aggressive when it came to play, at least compared to the other dogs. Everyone seemed to be matching the energy of everyone else. The only times I've seen altercations between dogs was when a husky and a German shepherd had a minor spat, and when a fearfully aggressive dog started something with a husky, but the husky was definitely going to finish it. And then there was overly rough play with a four month old puppy but almost every dog in the park was ganging up on her (there was about six or seven dogs there).
> 
> ...


No one is saying pit bulls should be banned from dog parks. What people are saying is that when you own a breed that has been bred to keep the dog aggressiveness trait (and that doesn't solely apply to pit bulls, but pits are the ones that have the worst reputation) it is unwise to put it in situations that will trigger its DA. And a dog park is one of those situations.

Needless to say, I agree with what most of the others have said. I also agree that it's ridiculous to consider a dog is "more or less of a dog" based on its size. A dog is a dog, its size doesn't determine its personality. My dog is amazing. She's friendly, intelligent, cuddly, energetic, playful... and she's small. But that's a detail!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I can't read through this entire thread.
Doglover, people like you are the reason this breed is going down the toilet. Ignorance and bias is a double edged sword. 



> The fact is, people who have only owned small dogs then all of a sudden want a pit deserve a huge reality check.


My first dog, my first real dog, was/is a Chihuahua. A little 4 pound, 4 inch high chihuahua. I have literally never met a dog smaller than him. I had this dog for 3 years before another dog ever came into my life. Out of all the dogs I've owned/cared for, Troubles is by far the most humble natured, intelligent and well mannered. By f*****g far. Both in part to training and due to his own natural behavior.

What do I have now in addition to him? A 30 pound Siberian Husky (you want to talk about a breed jump) and a 60/70+ pound BC mix that can overthrow any pit or ambully I have ever met in sheer size and strength. Forget his drive. 

At one point, I also owned a full APBT and she was second best to Troubles in behavior and manners. She was so easy that it blew my mind. I had no issues out that dog that I wasn't already prepared for from owning my chihuahua.

I have worked with and been around and kept: Labs, Goldens, GSDs, Collies, Shelties, Huskies, varying degrees of Hounds, Maltese, Weimeraners, ChowChows, ACDs, Aussies, BCs and a damn plethora of toy breeds and mixes, both large and small, from varying degrees of backgrounds. 
Everything I have ever done right has come from having that one little chihuahua.

So don't sit here and try to say small dogs aren't dogs. Don't sit here and try to say that those of us who have only had small dogs or have started on small dogs are not prepared for pits or any other large breed. 

If I can go from a little laid back chihauhua to a siberian husky who's out of her mind, then someone can go from a Yorkshire TERRIER to an American Pit Bull TERRIER.

[/done]


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well all I know is that Squash acts like a big dog in a big dog's body.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Well all I know is that Squash acts like a big dog in a big dog's body.


Thud acts like a little dog in a big dog's body. I know because he thinks he can fit into spaces that he absolutely can not, and does things like flip over the dining room chairs and coffee table, and REALLY wants to sit in laps.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Squash firmly believes that if you want to be somewhere and for some reason it isn't working out, use your gigantic self to either just plow through or break whatever is in your way. 



(And anyone who has seen recent pictures of my back porch door knows I'm not kidding, even a little bit.)


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

For big dogs, I hear more often 'he thinks he's a lap dog' vs 'he thinks he's a small dog'. So it does happen both ways. I tend to hear that one a lot. My grandma's Goldendoodle gets called that quite a bit, lol, because he tries to fit on your lap, and he's like almost 80lbs.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. Seriously.
> 
> I hear 'big dog in a small dog's body' a ton. It's never made any sense to me. What kind of big dog is it acting like?



I here this a LOT when the small dog is the aggressor. I also here "He thinks he's so tough!" and other such reasoning for bad behavior. However I do know people who say this to describe 'brave', stable dogs who aren't the 'typical' shaky 'chihuahua' type.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> My dog never runs up to dogs. If he sees a dog, he freezes and waits for the dog to come to him. I'm guessing he's accessing if they're friend or foe.
> 
> They know in a fight they'll lose.
> ^I seriously wish my dog knew this.
> ...


I wish my dog knew that too, Roxie STILL chases and fights cats if I give her the chance even though she's gotten a couple nasty scratches in the past...

That aside, I guess I need a reality check. The only indoor dogs I've ever had (therefore the ones I interacted with the most as a kid) were small, no more than 15 lbs maybe. A min pin, two Dachshunds, a mini Schnauzer and Roxie. And then I got a husky mix. Oh no! What a nightmare! Surely I don't have the experience for a BIG dog (who is actually more like medium). This says it all: "
If I can go from a little laid back chihauhua to a siberian husky who's out of her mind, then someone can go from a Yorkshire TERRIER to an American Pit Bull TERRIER."


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

AkariKuragi said:


> I don't think it's fair to say all pit bulls should not be allowed in dog parks. It should be based on the dog's temperament. If the dog is fine around other dogs and doesn't play too roughly then why should they be allowed? To ban the breed on the actions of a few is never a fair solution.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


And how many normal people want to admit that "Fluffy" is being a Pit Bull when s/he mauls a dog. Just like the article "this is another park we can't go to" or some such jazz. There will ALWAYS be exceptions to every rule, there will be bullies who can be dog park dogs. But I personally do not trust 90% of bully owners to be responsible in any way shape or form. So yes I believe that bullies should not be allowed into dog parks. I will NOT lose MY dogs because some @$$ hat can't deal with, or doesn't care about the reality that their dog is a breed that is KNOWN for it's Dog Aggression. I will not lose MY dogs because people are to ignorant to understand the breed they have let alone dog body language in general. Added to the fact that some dogs don't show aggression until 2-3 YEARS, of course causing the "She just attacked out of nowhere" BS. 


Yes SOME pit bulls/bullies are fine. But the majority are aggressive/reactive in some way, shape or form and how are you going to stop one of your dogs' triggers from walking in the gate? Are you going to deny another dog park access because your dog can't handle "aggressive" physical appearances or what ever that trigger is. What about that one day that you can't prevent them from coming in or don't notice them before Fluffy rushes in to attack? Dog parks are a danger waiting to happen and the last thing that needs to be done is take the HIGH risk with a breed who is struggling for acceptance and is still BANNED in many places. If you're still willing to risk your own dog's (and that of the dogs in the park) safety. Are you willing to risk other peoples' dogs' safety, because if BSL is enacted dogs are pulled from their homes and KILLED because someone was willing to throw the dice and LOST.


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

AkariKuragi said:


> Well I've only been to the local dog park a couple times so obviously I haven't seen that many interactions BUT!
> 
> The two times I've been I have seen several pits/pit mixes. None of them were overly aggressive when it came to play, at least compared to the other dogs. Everyone seemed to be matching the energy of everyone else. The only times I've seen altercations between dogs was when a husky and a German shepherd had a minor spat, and when a fearfully aggressive dog started something with a husky, but the husky was definitely going to finish it. And then there was overly rough play with a four month old puppy but almost every dog in the park was ganging up on her (there was about six or seven dogs there).
> 
> ...


I don't think pitbull a should be banned either, the ones I've met have generally been really nice and friendly at the dog park to all people. Honestly though for about 75% of them the way the play is generally just really rough and rude. They'll pin dogs in play and not let them up and just generally bulldoze other dogs. It's hard cause there are some that play very nice and gentle, it's just not the majority of them. I try to discourage Ammy from playing with pits at the dog park for that reason.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Trillian said:


> A
> Dog parks are a danger waiting to happen and the last thing that needs to be done is take the HIGH risk with a breed who is struggling for acceptance and is still BANNED in many places. If you're still willing to risk your own dog's (and that of the dogs in the park) safety. Are you willing to risk other peoples' dogs' safety, because if BSL is enacted dogs are pulled from their homes and KILLED because someone was willing to throw the dice and LOST.


THIS! There are very few breeds where the actions of ONE dog and ONE owner can affected thousands and thousands of dogs and owners. But pit bulls (I say that in the broad term to include all pit bull type dogs since breed bans go by physical characteristics and the judgment call of pit or not pit is usually up to animal control) are that breed. 

It isn't just dog parks, it is an overall responsibility that goes further than one's individual dog, but dog parks are one of the least necessary and most risky activities in terms of what can go wrong and the cost/benefit analysis. Just like I think that the vast majority of the time, pit bulls should not be off-leash in public areas (excluding things like competitive sports and trials). Not because they cannot be very well behaved off-leash (heck, as velcro as they are, they practically attach themselves to me heels anyway) but because IF something goes sideways, the LOOSE pit is the one to blame (and even more so if the pit bull was the instigator). 

There was a court case where a woman was walking her leashed pit bull. A loose dog (not a pit bull) came and attacked her dog. The pit bull defended himself and injured the loose dog. The lower court judge ruled the woman with the leashed dog at fault! Because according to that judge, the pit bull is inherently vicious. Fortunately it was overturned by a higher court and a much better precedent was set that says basically, judge a dog by his actions not his breed and the leashed dog had the right to defend himself and his owner from the attacking dog. But things like this show how very vulnerable (legally) pit bulls and pit bull owners are.

So don't risk my dogs and my friends dogs and many many other sweet, loving animals just because you (the generic you) think your dog HAS to go to a dog park and are willing to risk it.


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