# Accidental tie between brother & sister



## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

Ok, let me just start out by saying that this dog was given to me a day ago by a friend of mine & yes, she SHOULD have gotten the dog spayed, but she didn't. I immediately had her scheduled to be fixed the first of next month; that's when he was available to do it & that's when I get my SSI check.

My dog is 7 years old & is only 15 lbs. The dog she tied with was her brother, who is actually smaller than she is. Before I received the dog, she was confirmed by the vet to be out of heat (I actually went with my friend when she had the dog taken there, so I heard him say that it was safe for her to be around male dogs again & since my sister owns her brother, given to her by the same friend, I naturally took her.

Long story short, I'm taking her in Monday to the vet & I'm still going through with the spay; I don't want her to suffer through complications & possibly even death...I couldn't bare it. 

There is a question in all this...my question is, if she was still in heat & her vet was indeed wrong (Which, by the looks of things...he was)...why did she violently fight him when they were tied? I've heard, and this is by people who have been breeding dogs professionally for 30+ years that there are three main days that a dog is at her most fertile & is receptive...Ebony actually attacked him & retreated away prior to them being joined & she violently attacked him after they were separated, which took about five minutes.

I know she could very well be pregnant, but I also know that the same male dog had actually tied with a fixed female because he smelled another female dog in heat nearby...in fact, he preferred her to an actual dog that was in heat. I've been told this is impossible, but it did in fact happen because they were both in that infamous butt to butt stance & he had knotted because she couldn't get away from him. The lady who owned her took her to the same vet & it was confirmed the dog was indeed fixed (Her uterus & ovaries had been removed).

My final question is in regards to a normal heat cycle, according to my friend, Ebony was in heat for her normal time, which was exactly 24 days. She waited an additional three weeks before allowing her around male dogs, which was a week before I actually was given her...during that time in between none of her male dogs or any male dog for that matter showed any sort of interest in mating with her, but when she arrived, her brother only became interested when I let her outside this morning, which is when it happened. Did she have a silent heat or a split heat & if she had a normal cycle as confirmed by a vet, is that normal? I mean, she wasn't bleeding or swollen at all.

I know most of you are going to say that I'm a horrible & evil person; trust me, I feel the same way about this happening. But please, if you're going to ridicule me, at least read the entire post before you do. she is most definitely getting fixed ASAP.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

What did the vet do to check?

Could have been a silent heat. He could have tied even if not in heat. Could have been miscalculated. Bleeding should have been over with anyway, but swelling should still be present, though some dogs its hard to notice.


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## PunkyPug (Jun 4, 2011)

First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.

You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Meh, doesn't really matter if you're going to go ahead with the spay in less than 2 weeks. No biggie. Just make sure the vet knows so he can watch for extra bleeding. But, yes, some dogs will tie with spayed females or unspayed females who aren't in heat. Sometimes even if they're neutered! Which he probably should be if he's such a sex-crazed maniac .


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

PunkyPug said:


> First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.
> 
> You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.


Yes, I do agree with you. But you've got to understand, when I'm constantly being told it was ok by professionals...then I naturally believed them. And she never showed any kind of agression towards him until now. My friend, when she originally owned him & her never had a problem with either of them being grumpy towards one another. I have done my research & have several books on the subject. Most signs pointed to the fact that she was stressed about being in a new home...she is a very flightly & nervous dog & seemed to be even more distressed when I tried separating them, that is why I kept them together. And again, I do agree with you in regards to my naivety of trusting a vet's word. However, don't judge when you don't know the whole story. This is MY FIRST DOG & so I am not an expert. I am trying my best.


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

He did the blood tests associated with checking the stages (Don't remember what they are called) because my friend wanted to be absolutely sure she was out of heat before giving her to me. It's true, it could very well have been miscalculated. She had no swelling whatsoever & she was not bleeding at all. Heck, her brother seemed to be the only male dog that actually tried anything with her & I was unaware of that up until this morning. It could have been a silent heat, but is that normal for a dog that had a perfectly normal cycle before?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

PunkyPug said:


> First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.
> 
> You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.


What? Are you saying that you should never let male and female dogs be around each other? 

Yeah it won't matter much if she's going to be spayed anyways. Just let the vet know. We did a spay last year on a stray bitch we had found that was pregnant and had heartworms. She was fairly far along and the spay went just fine!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PunkyPug said:


> First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.
> 
> You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.


This has to be one of the wildest things I have ever read on this forum. 

Are you actually saying that it is a bad idea for an intact male and an intact female to be around each other even when not in heat?

Merlin and the Hell Bitch will be heart broken. In fact Most of Merlin's best play buddies are bitches. All intact. Merlin is going to be down to very few dog friends when I break the news to him.

I really wish I had known this information about 35-40 years ago.... To think I have been doing it wrong all this time.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ebony'smommy said:


> He did the blood tests associated with checking the stages (Don't remember what they are called) because my friend wanted to be absolutely sure she was out of heat before giving her to me. It's true, it could very well have been miscalculated. She had no swelling whatsoever & she was not bleeding at all. Heck, her brother seemed to be the only male dog that actually tried anything with her & I was unaware of that up until this morning. It could have been a silent heat, but is that normal for a dog that had a perfectly normal cycle before?


Progesterone testing is what your friend should have done.


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Meh, doesn't really matter if you're going to go ahead with the spay in less than 2 weeks. No biggie. Just make sure the vet knows so he can watch for extra bleeding. But, yes, some dogs will tie with spayed females or unspayed females who aren't in heat. Sometimes even if they're neutered! Which he probably should be if he's such a sex-crazed maniac .


Thanks! I'm going to call him and let him know first thing on Monday about the situation with Ebony & Blackjack, her brother is certainly getting fixed...I made sure my sister scheduled him at the same time as Ebony. That way they can recover together & be able to play again soon.


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Progesterone testing is what your friend should have done.


That may have actually been what was done on that day. He assured her that it was the right test. Maybe I should also ask
on Monday if it was a Progesterone test?


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## Nev Allen (Feb 17, 2010)

PunkyPug said:


> First of all. I don't believe in "its okay for her to be around males when not in heat". Because 1) as your witnessed, the female can get grumpy and attack. 2) the female could of been hurt by the male. 3) the female could undergo ALOT of stress from a male dog trying to mate with her.
> 
> You really should of taken the extra steps to keep them apart if you wanted to take her in.


Well that's just silly. I have 7 bitches running with a whole male and never had any issues. 

OP, tell the vet about the tie and have the male fixed as well at the same time. At the very least this will stop any unwanted pregnancies.

Does the male constantly try and hump all and any dogs or was this a one off.? If he does then you probably need to do some training to teach him this is unacceptable behaviour.

There is nothing wrong with males and females running together but you need to introduce strangers carefully and under full supervision. You and your friend did everything you needed to do in regard to the heat cycle and what happened was more or less not normal dog behaviour.

For the record, it is always wise to introduce dogs to each other carefully. You need to ensure thay are going to accept each other and not try and hurt themselves. Even if they are siblings, if they have been apart for some time, they do not recognise the fact they are siblings.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> This is MY FIRST DOG & so I am not an expert. I am trying my best.


Then 1st thing you do is not beat yourself up. Nobody knows much their 1st dog.


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Then 1st thing you do is not beat yourself up. Nobody knows much their 1st dog.


Thank you, wvasko. I still feel guilty about it... though I truthfully do believe all will turn out for the best once she gets fixed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ebony'smommy said:


> Thank you, wvasko. I still feel guilty about it... though I truthfully do believe all will turn out for the best once she gets fixed.


Don't feel bad about it..... The first one of us that gets everything right all the time with their dogs, gets a whole case of cupie dolls.

The thing is, you are a novice, stuff happens, you are dealing with it appropriately, learning from it..... 

Move on...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah it will turn out just fine. Don't worry so much and I certainly hope no one thinks you're a horrible person. 

For the record it is perfectly fine to let intact males and intact females interact with each other while the female is not in heat.


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

Nev Allen said:


> Well that's just silly. I have 7 bitches running with a whole male and never had any issues.
> 
> OP, tell the vet about the tie and have the male fixed as well at the same time. At the very least this will stop any unwanted pregnancies.
> 
> ...



Well, there is in fact a female dog that is in heat that someone owns right next door to me. I, at first had thought maybe this was the reason he initially knotted with his sister because he had not tried at all during his & her first day here. They were playing like normal & nothing seemed wrong. He's tried getting at all the dogs my mother owns & they were not in heat...some were fixed...but this is not his first time knotting a dog that clearly wasn't in heat or was fixed. I'm being told it's a complete impossibility for that to happen by many people...so now, I'm guessing maybe it was in fact a silent heat.

Me & my sister actually received the dogs both on the same day from the same friend, sorry if I made a muddle of my words and actually made it seem as if one had come to the house before the other; they have been together constantly since birth. But that's what I found so strange about the whole ordeal, she clearly wasn't receptive & unwilling to mate with him...after she attacked him once to get the point across, she immediately became friendly once more. We, of course are keeping them away from each other for right now. I don't want the same thing happening again.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And stories abound about dogs tying with not in heat bitches, neutered dogs tying with bitches, dogs tying with with spayed bitches, etc. 

Until I witness it first hand, I say they are just stories......I have been around and at times involved with breeding dogs my entire life... .I am still at the story stage....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Don't feel bad about it..... The first one of us that gets everything right all the time with their dogs, gets a whole case of cupie dolls.
> 
> The thing is, you are a novice, stuff happens, you are dealing with it appropriately, learning from it.....
> 
> Move on...


Well I'm a legend in my own mind and to the best of my recollections have never made any mistakes with my dogs. Of course if you believe that I still have some swampland in Florida for sale. I'm just sayin'..


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And stories abound about dogs tying with not in heat bitches, neutered dogs tying with bitches, dogs tying with with spayed bitches, etc.
> 
> Until I witness it first hand, I say they are just stories......I have been around and at times involved with breeding dogs my entire life... .I am still at the story stage....


 my neutered farm mutt tied with my in heat mal. Personally witnessed. Wouldn't dare attempt it when not in heat, as she would eat him alive. He was neutered at 9 months.


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## PunkyPug (Jun 4, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> What? Are you saying that you should never let male and female dogs be around each other?
> 
> Yeah it won't matter much if she's going to be spayed anyways. Just let the vet know. We did a spay last year on a stray bitch we had found that was pregnant and had heartworms. She was fairly far along and the spay went just fine!


No. I am saying that the dog is obviously undergoing enough stress getting rehomed. She doesn't need a dog banging her whenever he feels like it!
Put yourself in her paws and how you would feel.


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## PunkyPug (Jun 4, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> This has to be one of the wildest things I have ever read on this forum.
> 
> Are you actually saying that it is a bad idea for an intact male and an intact female to be around each other even when not in heat?
> 
> ...


Alright. Seriously, stop jumping on me and realize the situation! A dog is getting rehomed and is stressed enough through getting rehomed.


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## PunkyPug (Jun 4, 2011)

ebony'smommy said:


> Yes, I do agree with you. But you've got to understand, when I'm constantly being told it was ok by professionals...then I naturally believed them. And she never showed any kind of agression towards him until now. My friend, when she originally owned him & her never had a problem with either of them being grumpy towards one another. I have done my research & have several books on the subject. Most signs pointed to the fact that she was stressed about being in a new home...she is a very flightly & nervous dog & seemed to be even more distressed when I tried separating them, that is why I kept them together. And again, I do agree with you in regards to my naivety of trusting a vet's word. However, don't judge when you don't know the whole story. This is MY FIRST DOG & so I am not an expert. I am trying my best.


Yes I understand(now) it's your 1st dog. But did you state that? No.
Maybe you should of included that information. I'm telling you everything point blank. I'm point blank and to the point with everyone. I'm not being mean to you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

PunkyPug said:


> No. I am saying that the dog is obviously undergoing enough stress getting rehomed. She doesn't need a dog banging her whenever he feels like it!
> Put yourself in her paws and how you would feel.


Banging her whenever he feels like it....? How many intact dogs have you been around? I really do question it happening. Have heard of neutered dogs tying with bitches in heat though.

Look, even if males do tie with females out of heat it's not that common of an occurrence. 

Even if the OP wasn't a first time owner, I don't think it's unreasonable at all for the person to let her bitch go over and play with her brother if she thought the bitch was out of heat. Maybe they should have been watched closer when they were introduced? I don't know. Not much about the actual interaction was posted so there's nothing to go on.

At any rate, it's done and the dogs are getting neutered in two weeks anyways.


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

PunkyPug said:


> Yes I understand(now) it's your 1st dog. But did you state that? No.
> Maybe you should of included that information. I'm telling you everything point blank. I'm point blank and to the point with everyone. I'm not being mean to you.


I'm sorry, you are right. I did not state that information. I'm just a naturally defensive person. I'm truly sorry if I offended you.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PunkyPug said:


> No. I am saying that the dog is obviously undergoing enough stress getting rehomed. She doesn't need a dog banging her whenever he feels like it!
> Put yourself in her paws and how you would feel.


You are humanizing.... A bitch... Size does not matter will back off a male if she is not standing heat. Which if they tied, she was... If she was not in some stage of heat he would not have breeding on his mind..... 

There is no forced sex or rape in the dog world.....

Bottom line... IF they tied... .She was willing....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PunkyPug said:


> Alright. Seriously, stop jumping on me and realize the situation! A dog is getting rehomed and is stressed enough through getting rehomed.


I do realize the situation..... If they tied, she was willing. The dog did not force her..... End of story....All she has to do is sit with her butt on the ground.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

When we first got Summer, she had just lost a litter of pups so I'm sure her hormones were still not 100% back to normal. Beau was intact and VERY interested. Summer set him in his place real fast.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And stories abound about dogs tying with not in heat bitches, neutered dogs tying with bitches, dogs tying with with spayed bitches, etc.
> 
> Until I witness it first hand, I say they are just stories......I have been around and at times involved with breeding dogs my entire life... .I am still at the story stage....



The first time I ever watched two dogs tie it was between a neutered male and a spayed female. That wasn't the last time I watched that happen either. 
It does happen and more often than you think. Spaying/Neutering won't always stop it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PunkyPug said:


> No. I am saying that the dog is obviously undergoing enough stress getting rehomed. She doesn't need a dog banging her whenever he feels like it!
> Put yourself in her paws and how you would feel.


Oh for crying out loud. If she was told the dog wasn't in heat, why on earth would she think the dog would want to be "banging" her in the first place?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And stories abound about dogs tying with not in heat bitches, neutered dogs tying with bitches, dogs tying with with spayed bitches, etc.
> 
> Until I witness it first hand, I say they are just stories......I have been around and at times involved with breeding dogs my entire life... .I am still at the story stage....


I agree with HollowHeaven. Didn't know about it until I started working at the shelter I'm at now. They have over 250 dogs and only the males are all neutered, most females left intact. The dogs are kept in mixed groups and tying is not an uncommon sight. I did a double take the first time I saw it and almost panicked before I was told all males were fixed so pregnancies were impossible.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well I'm not gonna say possible/impossible just add myself to the list of 50 yrs 90 breeds trained and have never witnessed a non-heat breeding event. Now on the plus side maybe it's because most dogs here are policed/kenneled etc and raunchy stuff not given the chance to happen. 

Ebony's mommy, toughen up, this is a great forum to learn dog stuff. It surely does not mean that you are not gonna read silly/dumb/idiotic and occasionally some stuff that bruises your ego a bit. Stick with it the good advice far outweighs the bad.


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## ebony'smommy (Jul 14, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Ebony's mommy, toughen up, this is a great forum to learn dog stuff. It surely does not mean that you are not gonna read silly/dumb/idiotic and occasionally some stuff that bruises your ego a bit. Stick with it the good advice far outweighs the bad.



You're right, this is a great forum


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

PunkyPug said:


> Yes I understand(now) it's your 1st dog. But did you state that? No.
> Maybe you should of included that information. I'm telling you everything point blank. I'm point blank and to the point with everyone. I'm not being mean to you.


I think you need a few days to cool your jets. Being blunt is fine, however I've read your posts and they've by passed blunt a mile back. Rudeness is NOT tolerated on this board.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

ebony'smommy said:


> You're right, this is a great forum


Yes and as you can see the playing field gets evened out when needed.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

For future reference... even for dinosaur trainers  I learned the birds and the bees from my old dog:
1. He was neutered at 6 mos, so no experience.
2. When he was 8 yo, He tried to tie with a female that was 2 weeks out of heat. We did not let them tie, but she was willing. When I asked my Vet for a tune-up neuter , my Vet smiled and explained that the female could have been in heat, or simply might smell. Maybe the female knew that he was 'safe.' 
3. I have also seen a neutered male and a spayed female mate, but don't know if they 'tied.' Again, my Vet said this is not all that unusual, but she was not aware of research to explain the trigger.

However, the original statement that "an intact female that is not in heat is also not receptive" is not disproven by the two observations.... but they were sure unexpected and eye-opening  I had not been aware that you also had to watch a neutered male....


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> This has to be one of the wildest things I have ever read on this forum.
> 
> Are you actually saying that it is a bad idea for an intact male and an intact female to be around each other even when not in heat?
> 
> ...


same ehre, i'll perminately have to seperate Buddy & Josefina, as they are a male & female LOL LOL 

Related question that might be relevant: Buddy is neutered (dont know if he was when he was found as a stray or not but i'd be willing to guess not) he likes to... mount Josefina during play, he doesnt 'take it out' or anything, he just 'goes thru the motions' til she stops him, why?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> For future reference... even for dinosaur trainers  I learned the birds and the bees from my old dog:


Well this old Dino wasn't born in yesterday's Jurassic period, I myself personally have never witnessed such a happening. 

Now I personally think it's the high moral standards of the dogs I have owned/trained/seen on my travels through the dog world. I'm just sayin'...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> Related question that might be relevant: Buddy is neutered (dont know if he was when he was found as a stray or not but i'd be willing to guess not) he likes to... mount Josefina during play, he doesnt 'take it out' or anything, he just 'goes thru the motions' til she stops him, why?


Dogs mount and hump as part of play and excitement, humping is not solely a reproductive function.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

... I have never had either my dog's or my moral standards ever questioned... they're out in the open ... in the gutter ... for all to see 

BTW, even though my dog will intiate play with humping... if the victim doesn't snark, but ignores him... he will get ... more 'excited' 
I usually remove him, briefly, at that point. "Calm down big fella."


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> ... I have never had either my dog's or my moral standards ever questioned... they're out in the open ... in the gutter ... for all to see


Geeezzee! Go easy on yourself, I would not slam a toilet seat that hard.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh Oh, starting to get into toilet humor... Now, that's where I live 
... On the other hand, my dog has never had opportunity for: "Inside plumbing and fresh, cool water..."


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