# Schutzhund? I don't get it.



## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

Let us please keep this civil and polite. We all have differing opinions, let's respect our rights to have them. If you don't agree with what some one says, just take a deep breath and move on.

Now to the topic:

I don't under the point of Schutzhund. I do agree that a lot of dogs benefit from having tasks that occupy their time and exercise both their minds and their bodies but I don't really understand the appeal of this sport (I refrained from using quotations!). 

Why do people want such an aggressive dog? Why do people want to make a dog so aggressive? 

I don't really understand the training either, since most of it doesn't seem all that "nice". Why would some one enjoy a sport where most people train the dog to feel threatened to the point where the dog wants to attack? And how is the sport enjoyable if you're waving those sticks in the dog's face (I've even seen them being used to actually hit the dog) and smacking them on the floor around the dog and making the dog feel like he's going to be beaten? You know you're probably not going to hit the dog and if you do, hopefully by accident, which I imagine happens often, it may not hurt (I really don't know if it does or not) but the dog doesn't know any of this. And choke collars, prong collars and shock collars abound in this sport as well. So... What is the appeal?

I could envision training using positive reinforcement to get the dog to attack. Using back chaining and reinforcing harder and harder bites and finally a full out attack but still, as I mentioned above, why would you want such an aggressive dog and why would you want to make a dog aggressive?

Apart from the _sport_, I realize that some people use dogs for actual protection, not sport. But in most places, if a criminal intends harm, he's likely packing a gun or less likely a knife. So what chance does even the "toughest" protection dog stand then?

Since police dogs are probably going to come up at some point, I just wanted to say that this is kind of different and not related. But if it's going to be brought up, from what I've seen, they mostly use police dogs to go after people in hiding or to take down runners.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Shutzhund is a GAME, a dog trained in ShutzH is not trained in protection and makes a poor protection dog. In ShutzH the dog is specifically taught to bite a sleeve (have you ever played tug with a dog? That's what they do in a bit larger scale). An aggressive dog cannot compete in ShutzH, the dog needs to be obedient and see it as a game. Some dogs have a high defensive drive and then have to be taught that it's a game and not be defensive, but PLAY with the helper. It's more common to find positive trainers in ShutzH than corrective trainers. I have never heard anyone in ShutzH train a forced retrieve, for example, which is more than I can say about AKC obedience. 

I have done a little ShutzH training with my girl because she loves it and it's a great way to train obedience a little differently than usual ... and we LOVE the tracking. 

Here is a you Tube of the obedience part of a positively (mostly clicker) trained dog at the World Championship in Finland 2010

THIS is why people train Shutzhund


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

I still don't understand the game aspect of teaching a dog to bite a person.

And that dog was like a robot.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

The dog is not trained to bite a person ... the dog is taught to bite a sleeve held in a very specific way. It's a form of obedience. The dog can't bite until the helper holds the sleeve in the exact position. 

Have you ever played tug with a dog? Do you then have the dog wait for you to get ready before he/she can grab the tug? That's what the bite face in ShutzH is.


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

How can you say that that dog is clicker trained when their other videos showed dogs on prong collars and using those sticks?

The dog is trained to bite the sleeve ON a person. This is biting a person.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> <snip>
> 
> And that dog was like a robot.


That dog is clicker trained ... whether it's a robot or not.  Besides, that's the level of training necessary to reach world championships.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> How can you say that that dog is clicker trained when their other videos showed dogs on prong collars and using those sticks?
> 
> The dog is trained to bite the sleeve ON a person. This is biting a person.


I haven't looked at the other videos ... but this video was posted by someone else than the handler/dog team. One of the handlers at this world championship pointed out that the dog is clicker trained. 

I hold the ball or rug when I play tug and my dog bites it ... In Shutzhund the dog first bites a rug, then a pillow, then a sleeve the helper is holding in both hands ... then the sleeve on the arm. The dog goes for the sleeve, not the person. If you take the sleeve off the person the dog's going to go for the sleeve, not the person.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I don't train or compete in this sport, but can answer some of your questions about the aggression. Firstly a fearful dog has NO place in protection, period. Yes dogs have been pushed as with anything you get bad trainers. Properly trained protection dogs react to a threat. Even as young puppies they don't back down. Like a good Herder, this is bred into them. Bite is bred in as well. Good strong full grip, not letting go, notchewing the tug or sleeve, are things that can be improved, but you look for that on young pups.

Using a stick, whip, etc, making eye contact, yelling, really gets the fight going. Once the dog commits, you will see decoy trainers using their hands and stick to rub, tap, even grab loose skin like scruffing, which encourages a harder bite. They rub the faces, as you do not want a dog to let go and really bite. They dog wins the sleeve. This begins as a game, tug of war, with puppies. If you have spent much time with these type of dogs, you know how fast they escalate into extreme drives. So this is not really making aggressive dogs, rather than properly teaching WHEN and how to control it. Seriously, could you imagine the everyday average pet owner with one of these dogs that was NOT trained? 

Every dog is different. One of my females, bite trained, is a sweetheart. She bites like an alliance Gatorade, outs, the minute I say 'done ' she is crawling in the decoys lap and licking his face. This is a huge game for her, but she has a strong, dominant personality.
My retired male, much the same, just more powerful, not as much fight though. Both of these dogs are taken out in public, play with children, have awesome obedience, just great dogs. They are always supervised, not because they are trained for protection, because they are dogs.
Just got a new dog on Tuesday. He has had bitework started. He is aggressive. Does not out, I'm working on teaching a trade now, but when he has the sleeve, the only thing more important is another sleeve or decoy. Came with a prong collar, a muzzle on, and was told you have to 'knock him in the head to let go', with a laugh, yet I don't think it was a joke. Extremely intense dog. Just trying to open the crate door was a job as he was biting the bars at anyone he saw. We have serious work to do here, but have already made fast friends.
Protection dogs don't stand a chance against a gun or knife. They do buy time in this situation, and do a good distraction. A 70 lb set of teeth tugging and jerking you to the ground, makes it hard to aim. For true protection, buy a gun. 

The dogs with LE, yes usually they take down fleeing suspects. usually hidden ones are warned amply to "say something now, or ill release the dog!" . Its a very different deal for a dog to chase a person, and to stand and fight when it comes down to it. I am surprised at the amount of people who believe their dog will really protect them if they are attacked. Sure the dog may bark and growl, get between you and whoever, but but pressure on, and at best you have a fear biter in most cases. Have a real decoy trainer test this. This is the exact reason why the dogs are trained, if they have the proper drives and no fear.
As far as the equipment, I use a flat collar and lead, a harness, but mostly they are off lead. When correctly used, e collars, prongs are effective. I just personally have not had a need for them, or clickers, yet, but everyone has their preferences.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> How can you say that that dog is clicker trained when their other videos showed dogs on prong collars and using those sticks?
> 
> The dog is trained to bite the sleeve ON a person. This is biting a person.


This dog is trained to bite the sleeve. Big difference in equipment focused dogs,a and ones trained to actually bite the person. Usually dogs in this fashion will not bite at all, if they don't have their target. This is why the dog gets the sleeve as a reward, and does not continue fighting the person. This is where protection, LE, and other sports come in, you train on hidden sleeves, suits, leg sleeves etc. So this is what teaches the dog to bite a person, and not be equipment focused.


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold. 

I didn't realize that this kind of training is commonly accepted and I think I'd rather have this thread closed now.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

When you start a thread, and you don't agree with the civil responses you get, we do not close it for you.

That's not how forums work.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold.
> <snip>


I don't know enough about protection work or ring sports to comment on that, but I can tell you that in ShutzH there's NO fear involved ... the dog is PLAYING and trained to do it in a specific way. The stick comes in late in training and the dog is conditioned to see it as positive and exciting, it means it gets to play tug with the helper. All helpers I've ever seen work with a dog pets the dog with the stick and just 'wave it around' for a very long time, only the more advanced dogs are hit with it after extensive conditioning. I have never seen a helper grab the scruff, I've seen many of them stroke the dog over the head and under the chin to entice it to keep the hold.


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

I didn't realize that it's "civil" to condone hitting dogs with sticks and waving them in their faces and smacking them around a dog's body. If there is no fear of sticks, if they aren't perceived as threats, then it makes the sticks pretty useless and they wouldn't be used. 

If you won't close this thread, then that's fine. I'll unwatch it. I don't put up with animal abuse under ANY name or excuse. And I'm quite disappointed that the moderators will. What's the point of having all the +R threads pinned in this forum? For show? To look good?


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> Let us please keep this civil and polite. We all have differing opinions, let's respect our rights to have them. If you don't agree with what some one says, just take a deep breath and move on.
> 
> <snip>


... so this statement only goes one way?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

msminnamouse said:


> I didn't realize that it's "civil" to condone hitting dogs with sticks and waving them in their faces and smacking them around a dog's body. If there is no fear of sticks, if they aren't perceived as threats, then it makes the sticks pretty useless and they wouldn't be used.
> 
> If you won't close this thread, then that's fine. I'll unwatch it. I don't put up with animal abuse under ANY name or excuse. And I'm quite disappointed that the moderators will. What's the point of having all the +R threads pinned in this forum? For show? To look good?


Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it abuse. The dogs are taught to work in adverse conditions, conditions that real life presents to them if they are doing protection work, become military dogs or police dogs.



msminnamouse said:


> Let us please keep this civil and polite. We all have differing opinions, let's respect our rights to have them. If you don't agree with what some one says, just take a deep breath and move on.
> 
> <snip>


So you think reporting your own post and asking the thread be closed when people disagree with you is being 'civil'? Sorry but that's not how it works, in real life or on this forum. Give the respect you ask for and it will be returned.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold.


Well on your opening post you said you did not understand the Schutzhund sport. I totally agree with you that you do not understand the sport. You probably knew this thread was gonna be a bell ringer. I just dabbled in Schutzhund to learn, never titled a dog. While I was dabbling saw some fantastic working dogs. 

I like NFL football, love the hard hits , good blocking etc etc. I don't care for hockey as they spend too much time fighting. When I watch fighting it's boxing, etc etc etc. There is no way I want Hockey to stop because I don't care for it. I just don't watch it.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> If a dog is trained to attack a perceived threat, then the dog is attacking out of fear, fear for their wellbeing or their owner's wellbeing. That's not a game. I don't see how that's humane. Exploiting an animal's fear. I don't see how using a stick ON a dog is humane, nor do I see how grabbing the scruff is humane either, in an attempt to further agitate the dog to bite harder or to bite and hold.
> 
> I didn't realize that this kind of training is commonly accepted and I think I'd rather have this thread closed now.


When you perceive a threat, you feel frightened. I totally understand that. However, not everyone feel frightened when they perceive a threat. Myself for example, there are threats that frighten me, and threats that don't.

Now, I don't know what goes through a dog's mind when he perceives a threat, only the dog could tell you that, but I do know that a dog is not human. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the dog attacks the threat because it's been trained to do so, not out of fear.

I've noticed that you rarely if ever see terriers being used in protection and law enforcement, even though there are surely some terriers physically capable of it. We'd have to ask an expert, but I suspect it's because no one's figured out how to get a terrier to stop fighting on command with 100% reliability.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

There is no fear at all when trained correctly. It is an exaggerated game of tug. Ten wewek old puppies engage in this, for fun. Have you been around many malinois or working shepherds? The dogs love it! The dogs are not hit with the stick. They are touched. The dogs have fight drive, which is not fear. A fearful dog has no place in protection.
Have you ever wrestled with a dog? Rough housed? Is that abuse? How about showing a dog? Keeping them case, grooming for hours, using a tiny lead nearly choking them. Come on.
I guess abuse is why all of mine run to the equipment cabinet, grab a sleeve run to me and literally push it into me to play. They are terrified. Why don't they just attack me? 
This is obviously something you know nothing about, and its really too bad you have such a closed mind about it. You are more than welcome to come watch us train, and see for yourself.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

DustyCrockett said:


> When you perceive a threat, you feel frightened. I totally understand that. However, not everyone feel frightened when they perceive a threat. Myself for example, there are threats that frighten me, and threats that don't.
> 
> Now, I don't know what goes through a dog's mind when he perceives a threat, only the dog could tell you that, but I do know that a dog is not human. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the dog attacks the threat because it's been trained to do so, not out of fear.
> 
> I've noticed that you rarely if ever see terriers being used in protection and law enforcement, even though there are surely some terriers physically capable of it. We'd have to ask an expert, but I suspect it's because no one's figured out how to get a terrier to stop fighting on command with 100% reliability.


 Airedales were once used. I believe, not sure, that terriers have more animal hunt and fight that actual man fight instinct. Like some dogs and breeds are aloof, not afraid of people.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I've never trained Schutzhund, but I have been around a lot of GSDs, and they LOVE that sort of thing. That's what they were bred for. In fact, if I recall correctly, Schutzhund was designed to test GSDs to make sure they are good representatives of the breed and worthy of being bred. 

Is Schutzhund appropriate for every dog? No. Muggsy might have actually really liked it, he certainly loved to play tug, and he loved training overall. Kabota, on the other hand, would be a miserable failure at it. You have to match the dog to the activity.

ETA: As to grabbing the scruff and such being abusive, GSDs are big, physical dogs. Muggsy was half GSD and he loved rough play. If you watched him play with my husband, you might think they were hurting each other, but Muggsy loved it and it never got out of hand.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

msminnamouse said:


> And that dog was like a robot.


That looked like one heck of a happy robot.


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## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

msminnamouse said:


> I didn't realize that it's "civil" to condone hitting dogs with sticks and waving them in their faces and smacking them around a dog's body. If there is no fear of sticks, if they aren't perceived as threats, then it makes the sticks pretty useless and they wouldn't be used.
> 
> If you won't close this thread, then that's fine. I'll unwatch it. I don't put up with animal abuse under ANY name or excuse. And I'm quite disappointed that the moderators will. What's the point of having all the +R threads pinned in this forum? For show? To look good?


Wow....well, I'm sure the OP is long gone from this thread by now, since most responses haven't exactly agreed with their optinion. That's too bad, when I truly do not understand something I usually have the goal of learning at least a little bit. That certainly doesn't seem to be the case here.

Anyway, in case they do decide that knowledge is better than ignorance, I spent some time training with a Schutzhund club. Respect the sport (I did -not- have to refrain from quotations), but found that it was not for me or my dog. Instead, we opted to focus on personal protection (old UKC Dog Sports program, unfortunately defunct but we train for it anyway because that's what we like). What I find most humorous about this thread is the reference to "abuse". I wonder if the OP has ever met a working dog? It would be far, far more "abusive" to my working dog if we did not train in some type of protection sport, as he absolutely loves it and was made for it. Needs it. Without it, he would be unfulfilled, and to me that is a heckuva lot closer to "abuse" than the training we do, which happens to be full of "+R" methods. Don't get me wrong, he loves agility, nose work, obedience, etc - but he absolutely is best suited for some type of protection sport. Oh well. Ignorance is bliss I guess.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Schutzhund involves alot more obedience and routine than just protection or apprehension. Its a controlled environment, where street training has any variable imaginable. The dogs live to do this and can't wait to go to "work". I have yet to see anything happier than a dog doing what they are bred to do!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Climber said it perfectly! I think its abusive to have a working bred dog confined to a house and to get to walk once a day. That's one reason why people have so much trouble with these breeds. They want a shepherd, crate it for ten hours a day, go for a thirty minute walk, dog turns into a hellion, and it is later euthanized because it bit someone out of frustration. I see it all the time. That is abuse,


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

THIS is why people train Shutzhund

Please forgive me if I'm mistaken (my monitor and my eyes aren't the greatest, and I couldn't get the video to expand) ... but that dog sure appeared to have a chain collar on. 

If so, then I'd suspect he wasn't _purely_ positive trained. Perhaps clicker trained and traditionally trained too, which would be a combination (IMO -- a contradiction) of methods. I did see the dog exhibit an extremely minor amount of trepidation during his performance, and I did see the handler swing his left hand 'out and back' on inside turns (which seems to imply corrections during training ?).

I have to say I really don't know, but I'm wondering. That's all.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

msminnamouse said:


> I didn't realize that it's "civil" to condone hitting dogs with sticks and waving them in their faces and smacking them around a dog's body. If there is no fear of sticks, if they aren't perceived as threats, then it makes the sticks pretty useless and they wouldn't be used.
> 
> If you won't close this thread, then that's fine. I'll unwatch it. I don't put up with animal abuse under ANY name or excuse. And I'm quite disappointed that the moderators will. What's the point of having all the +R threads pinned in this forum? For show? To look good?



I think before you scream "abuse" you should study the sport a little more so that you know what you are seeing. The sticks as you call them do not hurt the dogs. They are to distract the dogs to try to interrupt their concentration. Distracting a dog, isn't hurting a dog and it certainly isn't abuse. Just like some people like going to the ballet while others like to play football, Some dogs like to play rough. There are dogs of many different breeds in Schutzhund and there are many individuals within each breed that may or may not like this "game" I have had many dogs that loved to play rough while a few of them wanted nothing to do with it. 

Schutzhund is obedience training, not "attacking people" training. You are not teaching your dogs to bite people. I have a friend that had several Schutzhund titled dogs that were fantastic playing with little kids and very safe temperaments. I think that there are those that train their dogs in Schutzhund that are abusive just as there are those who have lap dogs that abuse their dogs. There are good people and bad people in every aspect of life. Don't condemn a sport because you don't understand it. 

You wondered about all the +R threads? What makes you think that dogs cannot be trained +R in Schutzhund? If a dog is not confident, it won't be able to compete in this sport. It must be confident, eager to do the work. You don't get that by abusing your dog.


Edit: I had to post this video of protection trained dog. I want you to see that this is a very obedient dog. It LOVES what it is doing here (dog since passed but still amazing) this dog is safe... It can get called off of a "bite" and redirected under very chaotic situations. This is obedience. This is fun. You will hear dogs squealing in the background. They WANT to play the game too. It is not abuse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPkTEnMJKG0

You will also see the stick being used. If you watch, they are NOT hitting the dog with it, they do touch the dog but it is a distraction, NOT an abuse.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

DustyCrockett said:


> I've noticed that you rarely if ever see terriers being used in protection and law enforcement, even though there are surely some terriers physically capable of it. We'd have to ask an expert, but I suspect it's because no one's figured out how to get a terrier to stop fighting on command with 100% reliability.


APBTs are used for PP and law enforcement, detection dogs also. One of the best detection dog on the west coast was an APBT that recently retired. I've seen them do Schutzund as well, along with other smaller terriers. 

OP: there is no fear in schutzhund, its not animal abuse, the dogs are never hit with that stick. As others stated it's a game, that these dogs love. These dogs are impeccably trained in RL situations. So is a dog being trained as a police dog abusive? 

The people who are getting "attacked" are volunteers, they are heavily padded, and if watch schutzhund you will see the only part the dogs go for is the sleeve, the dog could easily go after another part but they don't cause thats not what they are trained for. 

Scruffing done right does not hurt the dogs, I would not suggest doing it on a tiny dog, but a dog with a thick neck and an ever thicker head should not cower after getting scruffed.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

The dogs would not go and bite and so on if they were actually afraid of any of it. Trust me, scared dogs don't go out and attack unless they're cornered.

There is nothing as great as a well trained dog doing that kind of work and doing it well. I had one dog who loved to play fight with me and that was often his reward when training, couldn't do it in public often because me having him by the scruff and wrestling with him, or 'oinning' him etc. looked much worse. But trust me, he usually started it! Most dogs are rough and tumble in how they play, perhaps not the OP's dog, but I know my goofs will be dragging each other around in the snow (one dog plays dead, the other two drag the body around) and hanging off each other quite often.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

climber said:


> <snip> It would be far, far more "abusive" to my working dog if we did not train in some type of protection sport, as he absolutely loves it and was made for it. Needs it. Without it, he would be unfulfilled, and to me that is a heckuva lot closer to "abuse" than the training we do, which happens to be full of "+R" methods. Don't get me wrong, he loves agility, nose work, obedience, etc - but he absolutely is best suited for some type of protection sport. Oh well. Ignorance is bliss I guess.


Exactly this! I'm from Sweden ... that's all they talk about there, how to help the dogs be what they were ment to be, to give them fulfillment.



petpeeve said:


> THIS is why people train Shutzhund
> 
> Please forgive me if I'm mistaken (my monitor and my eyes aren't the greatest, and I couldn't get the video to expand) ... but that dog sure appeared to have a chain collar on.
> 
> If so, then I'd suspect he wasn't _purely_ positive trained. <snip>


Traditionally all shutzhund dogs wear "fur savers" which are chains with big links. They work as slip collars but because the links are so big are very easy to bend back and put them on "a dead hold" when they are in use. Normally my girl is wearing a pink (!) nylon martingale, for AKC competitions she wear a black martingale and for Shutzhund a fur saver. The collar has absolutely nothing to do with how the dog is trained, the sport of shutzhund is very (very!) traditional, commands are given in German and equipment looks pretty much the same as when they first started.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Protection sport training can but doesn't have to create aggression on a dog. In bellow video Michael Ellis who trained Schutzhund world champions explains how the training affects dog's temperament and if it makes the dog aggressive:
http://michaelellisschool.com/vid_qa16.htm

The bottom line is, dog will remain the same dog he was before the training. However, for most dogs biting a human hand or leg is big NO NO whereas protection dogs consider biting humans as a fun and OK game to play. Decoys are still humans and dogs don't realize that helpers are wearing special suits therefore it creates an illusion in there heads that biting humans is super cool and a completely harmless game.

Unless you are ready to tell your dog to bite a real person you should not really train your dog to do it. It's the same as the gun rule - don't point the gun unless you're ready to fire.

On a side note, training bite work without human decoys is completely fine and harmless game - very fun for the dog. I use tugs all the time.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

There is a big difference in training a dog on just a sleeve, and using hidden equipment to teach an actual bite on a person. If I had a decoy today I would video it to show the difference. Look at schutzhund and compare to knpv, mondio, and LE apprehension work.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

In fact with proper protection training on a good dog, there is less chance of being bitten by that dog, compared to a nervous gsd, lab, or even dachshund, just as an example, any dog that has any aggression issues.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

> Decoys are still humans and dogs don't realize that helpers are wearing special suits therefore it creates an illusion in there heads that biting humans is super cool and a completely harmless game.


False. Dogs definitely DO realize when a person is wearing a bite sleeve and when they aren't. PP dogs have to be trained to bite without the presence of a sleeve, which is why PP trainers and decoys use hidden sleeves. You may have never met a working Schutzhund team, but I suggest you go check out a club sometime. Those dogs know exactly what a sleeve is and will happily carry it around, much like my Pit Bull carries his rope.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

You are right msminnamouse you don't understand the sport, and unfortunately you don't seem interested in learning about it.

The best analogy that I can come up with that you might understand is comparing protection sports for dogs with martial arts for people. Or boxing, or football, or hockey, etc but marial arts are probably the best one. Some people love "rough and tumble", some don't. Some dogs love protection sports, some don't. When done properly, teaching someone martial arts doesn't make them any more likely to become a mugger or get in a bar fight, and actually with some people it might make them less likely to. All dogs can bite, one thing a protection sport does with a dog bred for high drives and a willingness to use them is teach them when and where it's proper and self control in a high state of drive. People doing martial arts, football, etc are hitting each other, sometimes as hard as they possibly can, sometimes with sticks or other pieces of equipment, but that doesn't mean they are trying to kill each other or seriously harm each other, or even dislike each other. It's a sport, they enjoy it, and they might even go grab a drink with each other afterwards. Sometimes they take it a little more personal and would rather not hang out with their opponent after a match/trial/game. Doesn't mean they don't like the sport though. Same for the dogs.

The dogs don't have to be forced to do this, they LOVE to do this. When I am in the parking lot putting equipment on my dogs, they are bursting at the seams to get to the field and start working. If I allow it, they will drag me all the way there, and all the way down the field. If one of my dogs didn't behave that way I'd be checking to see if they were sick or injured. If they didn't behave that way repeatedly, I'd start wondering if they really wanted to do this, and considering finding something else for them to do. But I've never had one that didn't so ...


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

I have a husky, I guess its abuse to put his harness on and have him pull my lazy butt around on a scooter. Its only what he was bred for after all....


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Please remember that the OP is no longer here, so lets tailor our answers to that perspective. Give info on the sport, try to educate on the differance in the myths and the the facts of the sport.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

SassyCat said:


> Decoys are still humans and dogs don't realize that helpers are wearing special suits therefore it creates an illusion in there heads that biting humans is super cool and a completely harmless game.


This is incorrect. My dogs are well aware that the human has equipment on, and the equipment is what they are supposed to bite. There have been accidents over the years where one of my dogs grabbed exposed skin, usually because the decoy moved a hand right in front of the dogs target area at the last second. In every case the dog immediately let go, and bit the suit.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Please remember that the OP is no longer here, so lets tailor our answers to that perspective. Give info on the sport, try to educate on the differance in the myths and the the facts of the sport.


Is the OP gone from the forum completely, or did they just say they weren't going to read this thread anymore? I thought they just said they weren't going to watch the thread. Unless they are gone from the forum completely, I'm running under the assumption they are still here, and still reading, just not responding anymore.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Active dog, I was going to comment about the cruelty of your dog being made to work in cold and snow, lol, then I saw where you you are, lol. Anyway, so when pulling is she ecstatic or what?


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

dantero said:


> Is the OP gone from the forum completely, or did they just say they weren't going to read this thread anymore? I thought they just said they weren't going to watch the thread. Unless they are gone from the forum completely, I'm running under the assumption they are still here, and still reading, just not responding anymore.


They were banned, says under their name. 

On topic, this is NOT a sport I'd enjoy, and because I still am learning to stop anthropomorphising animals, not a sport I could sit and watch. 

However that _doesn't make it abusive_. Very dangerous word to just throw around! 

Think of it like the more 'extreme' sports..But for dogs!


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

This might be true about protection dogs and ring sports where they use a body suit. In shutzhund, however, the dog doesn't bite a person ... the dog goes for the sleeve. If the helper (it's not called decoy in ShutzH) drops the sleeve the dog will follow it, not the person. I've seen a shutzhund trained dog being sent on a helper in body suit without a sleeve and the dog kept barking ... but didn't attack, no bite at all, because there was no sleeve to bite. 
I'm traveling right now and have a very poor internet connection so I can't see what ME says ... expect that I do respect him greatly as a trainer.

I'm sorry my response came so far below Sassy Cat's which is the one I answered ... I'm in Saudi Arabia and the internet connection I have here is worse than poor. 

In mondio ring training they use whole suites and in the training sessions I've seen the dogs definitely know the difference between a suited helper and before he gets the suit on. Before the suit is on they want a scratch ... after they bark and want to "play".


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

juliemule said:


> In fact with proper protection training on a good dog, there is less chance of being bitten by that dog


Good dog is a good dog and biting won't make it any better IMO. Nervous, fearful or aggressive dog can't be rehabilitated through bitework either. Besides, I would prefer that my neighbour Joe's GSD's remains as is, even if nervous, rather than have Joe train her for bite work as well . Protection training IS serious business and with best intentions people could screw up so like everything else it comes with a risk especially when aversives are used. It's like teaching a dog to release a piece of raw meat, when not done right you end up with a major problem, when done right you have a super reliable and trustworthy dog.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

hast said:


> This might be true about protection dogs and ring sports where they use a body suit. In shutzhund, however, the dog doesn't bite a person ... the dog goes for the sleeve.


You're right, I totally forgot about that - my bad! I mixed it up with protection training. They're not even trained to bite legs, just the sleeve.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

SassyCat said:


> Good dog is a good dog and biting won't make it any better IMO. Nervous, fearful or aggressive dog can't be rehabilitated through bitework either. Besides, I would prefer that my neighbour Joe's GSD's remains as is, even if nervous, rather than have Joe train her for bite work as well . Protection training IS serious business and with best intentions people could screw up so like everything else it comes with a risk especially when aversives are used. It's like teaching a dog to release a piece of raw meat, when not done right you end up with a major problem, when done right you have a super reliable and trustworthy dog.


Never did I imply a nervous dog should be trained to bite! We turn more dogs down after an evaluation than we accept! What I mean is a good dog trained in protection is less likely to bite without a command, vs a neighbor dog that is a nervebag, not trained. 
Some people think a dog trained in protection is a vicious dog. Just as some people feel every pit bull is a mean dog. Untrue.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I find this interesting. I could watch this sport all day given a good video and some good dogs.  I love to see a dog doing a job! If a person were to want to become involved in Schutzhund ... does the dog need to be of a certain breed, age, must it be titled in obedience first, does the trainer always go to the field ... is there a good link to this for starting Schutzhund 101? 

I have too many questions ... sorry!


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

+two said:


> False. Dogs definitely DO realize when a person is wearing a bite sleeve and when they aren't.


I stand corrected, I mixed this discussion with protection training:


SassyCat said:


> Decoys are still humans and dogs don't realize that helpers are wearing special suits.


Sorry about that!  

@juliemule I know you didn't imply it, I just put that as (what I believe to be) a fact to have a complete sentence because some people don't see it as obvious.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> THIS is why people train Shutzhund
> 
> Pand I did see the handler swing his left hand 'out and back' on inside turns (which seems to imply corrections during training ?).
> 
> I have to say I really don't know, but I'm wondering. That's all.


Maybe, or it might have been a "turn now" cue. Back in the olden days, I did a bit of schH with one of my Aussies. He thought it was the best thing since beef jerky. In demonstrations he'd do an impressive courage test (with a stick and all - the stick is flexible) and when it was all over, the helper would take off his protection gear and get down and cuddle with Indy. I'd say this guy was Indy's favorite person next to family because he let him play the "bite" game. It's important to note that SchH has three parts - tracking, obedience, and only one part protection. And, in that protection phase the dog must be able to exhibit a great deal of self control, not biting until the decoy moves, coming off the sleeve when cued, etc. There is an additional level of responsiblity to a dog who knows how to engage a human, and one has to decide if they want that. As to how the sport is trained - well depends on who is doing the training, like any other sport. Some train traditionally, some train with markers, some do both. But the goal is never to have a dog who bites out of fear. Most dogs who are good at it love it.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

Abbylynn said:


> I find this interesting. I could watch this sport all day given a good video and some good dogs.  I love to see a dog doing a job! If a person were to want to become involved in Schutzhund ... does the dog need to be of a certain breed, age, must it be titled in obedience first, does the trainer always go to the field ... is there a good link to this for starting Schutzhund 101?


Any dog capable of doing the work can compete in Sch. That said, some clubs are going to be more focused on a few breeds, and other clubs will be open to any dog who can do the work, regardless of breed. A dog doesn't have to have any prior titles to start training or competing in Sch. I've seen Labs, Border Collies, Aussies, mix breeds, all doing Sch, it's not just GSD, Rott, Dobe, Malinois, etc. 

The best way to check out the sport is to look for clubs in your area, contact them, tell them what you have, and go visit. If you go to http://www.awdf.net/
you will find links for the various national organizations, USA, also written USCA, and DVG are the two biggest. Each should have a list of clubs on their websites which you can use to find out what's in your area.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok so can someone who is experienced explain the difference btw shutzH & protection/bite work? I just want to learn .

I have not much experience with it but I love watching the sport .... ESP when an ACD is competing (via you tube) .


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

dantero said:


> Any dog capable of doing the work can compete in Sch. That said, some clubs are going to be more focused on a few breeds, and other clubs will be open to any dog who can do the work, regardless of breed. A dog doesn't have to have any prior titles to start training or competing in Sch. I've seen Labs, Border Collies, Aussies, mix breeds, all doing Sch, it's not just GSD, Rott, Dobe, Malinois, etc.
> 
> The best way to check out the sport is to look for clubs in your area, contact them, tell them what you have, and go visit. If you go to http://www.awdf.net/
> you will find links for the various national organizations, USA, also written USCA, and DVG are the two biggest. Each should have a list of clubs on their websites which you can use to find out what's in your area.


Thank you very much!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

SassyCat said:


> I stand corrected, I mixed this discussion with protection training:
> 
> Sorry about that!
> 
> @juliemule I know you didn't imply it, I just put that as (what I believe to be) a fact to have a complete sentence because some people don't see it as obvious.


 I am not good in clear communication with people skills! Lol, the dogs understand a look from me,but I could write a book and still not be clear, sorry


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Ok so can someone who is experienced explain the difference btw shutzH & protection/bite work? I just want to learn .


Not sure if you mean personal protection, but Schutzhund is a protection sport that includes 3 parts. Tracking, obedience and protection. It's not just bite work. 

Personal protection training can start out very similar to sport training, but then takes it a step further to make sure the dog does understand that in some instances the person really is a threat, and they will be biting that person, it's not always a game. However, IMO good personal protection training still involves elements of a game in the teaching process, simply because we all, humans and animals, learn better when we are comfortable. Putting a dog into a stressful situation, where they feel the bad guy really is a bad guy and going to do harm, then asking them to learn, is counter productive. Teach them the behaviors that are required in a non-stressful situation where they can learn clearly, then ask them to perform those behaviors while increasing the level of stress they are under is the correct way to train personal protection. But at some point the personal protection, police dog, military dog, etc have to learn that it's not just about biting equipment, or they may not bite in a real scenario, they need to learn it's about the person in the equipment.

Once this is done, some dogs aren't "equipment sure" anymore, ie they will bite what they can take and if the equipment isn't the first thing they see, it will be the human. But others, the majority of them, will still be equipment sure in a training situation. It goes back to that martial arts scenario. I can learn martial arts, and go train, spar will people, etc as a sport. I can also use the skills I learned in martial arts to protect myself if someone tries to mug me. But knowing how to use those skills to prevent a mugging doesn't mean I'm going to try to injure or kill my training partner the next time I go to the dojo. It's the same with many PP, police, and MWDs. They train on equipment, along with muzzle work, hidden sleeve, etc but still bite and fight a human in a real scenario without equipment. Then go back to working on equipment again in training. But that's what a balanced dog with good training, the type of dog we like to have, will do.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

ShutzH, Ring sports, and personal protection all have 'bite work' as one component. In PP and Ring sports they use jacket and pants and the dog bites where it can get a grip, in ShutzH the helper has a (canvas) sleeve on one arm and that's where the dog bites.

My girl LOVES the bite face ... and the obedience and tracking too, but the bite work and tracking are clearly her very favorite training. She enjoys and does well in obedience, but I have to find new ways to make it fun and exciting ... bite work and tracing are exciting on their own. It's in her genes, she's bred to do it.
One of the reasons I started to play around a bit with ShutzH is that I have a very sharp dog, I didn't realize exactly what I was getting when she was 8 weeks old ... I figured that it might be much safer for me to give her some meaningful training. To give her a bit of training also means that I get an "off button". They cannot work or train unless they have the self-control to stop and let go when told to. 

We've had problems finding a club I want to train with, right now I'm taking her once a month, or so, to a PP/Ring trainer who has agreed to do ShutzH bite training with Mandy. So far we're doing it purely for fun, because she gets such a kick out of it and it's really good for her to learn that it's a game ... no need to be defensive. (The way to teach that is for the helper to roll around on the ground petting and loving on the dog between bites, sometimes I wonder who has the more fun. lol) 
We've had a hard year and a half with my mom taking ill and dying and my husband having cancer. We seem to have kicked (all my fingers are now crossed) the cancer diagnosis and I will resume continuity in training for Mandy. We'll focus on getting the last leg for the UD title ... A.N.D ... maybe see if we can get her bite work and tracking (she'd do the obedience in her sleep unless I mess her up) so we can compete for a ShutzH 1 title in a year or so.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

SassyCat said:


> Decoys are still humans and dogs don't realize that helpers are wearing special suits therefore it creates an illusion in there heads that biting humans is super cool and a completely harmless game.


This is absolutely not true. Muggsy was quite capable, without any special training, of distinguishing between clothing, skin and even different types of clothing. He knew that my big puffy coat and/or sneakers meant a walk and that my tweed coat meant no walk (going to work). Dogs do not generalize. We say this often to people trying to potty train their dogs. Well, that can be frustrating when trying to train a dog not to go in every room of the house, but it is very useful when training a dog to bite a sleeve and not an arm. Dogs don't generalize, so they see a larger difference between the sleeve and the arm than you or I would.


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## k-9 (Mar 10, 2010)

msminnamouse said:


> How can you say that that dog is clicker trained when their other videos showed dogs on prong collars and using those sticks?
> 
> The dog is trained to bite the sleeve ON a person. This is biting a person.


 Please do research before posting things like this.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I also don't understand why someone wants to train in the sport, or train protection either other than military and police dogs that require it and not just a companion animal. But just because I can't understand the desire to do doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. It's just not something I have a desire to do.

I participate in shooting, and have participated in racing, and a lot of off road motorcycle riding, and a whole lot of people don't understand why anyone would want to participate in any of those either..


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

TxRider said:


> I also don't understand why someone wants to train in the sport, or train protection either other than military and police dogs that require it and not just a companion animal. But just because I can't understand the desire to do doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. It's just not something I have a desire to do.
> 
> I participate in shooting, and have participated in racing, and a lot of off road motorcycle riding, and a whole lot of people don't understand why anyone would want to participate in any of those either..


Word. I used to love shooting at the range, but motorcycles scare me. All I can think of is falling off.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> I find this interesting. I could watch this sport all day given a good video and some good dogs.  I love to see a dog doing a job! If a person were to want to become involved in Schutzhund ... does the dog need to be of a certain breed, age, must it be titled in obedience first, does the trainer always go to the field ... is there a good link to this for starting Schutzhund 101?
> 
> I have too many questions ... sorry!


Abbylynn you might appreciate this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Inga - Mr Murphy was some cool dog!  He was serious about his job for sure! He made my day .... thank you for the video!  ... answered some of my questions for sure!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> Inga - Mr Murphy was some cool dog!  He was serious about his job for sure! He made my day .... thank you for the video!  ... answered some of my questions for sure!



Yup! People laugh like crazy when they see it but he was a very serious, hard working little dog. Goes to show the "game" can be enjoyed by almost any dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Inga said:


> Abbylynn you might appreciate this video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME


Inga, I owe you big time that was a precious flick


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This is just a general observation, since the OP has left the building. (Don't assume it was because of this thread, BTW.)

When you start a thread - especially when you ask for advice or information - you don't get to have the thread closed just because you don't like/understand/agree with the responses.

The responses HAVE been civil and educational. I myself don't understand schutzhund. I understand it a little better now, thanks to this thread. Regardless, I won't be condemning it and I certainly won't be condemning the people that patiently try to explain to all of us.

Honestly, I think there are just too many people who have no idea how a forum actually works or the true value of it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I hope everybody who can watch Inga's video, I said it was precious but that does not do it justice.

Hast
I'm sorry I neglected to remark on your video which is very much like the fantastic dogs I remember from long ago. That dog was one classy rascal.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

That is a GREAT video, Inga!


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I hope everybody who can watch Inga's video, I said it was precious but that does not do it justice.
> 
> Hast
> I'm sorry I neglected to remark on your video which is very much like the fantastic dogs I remember from long ago. That dog was one classy rascal.


No worries ... I just think it's important to point out that high performance, in ShutzH especially, doesn't equal harsh and corrective training. I thought that myself until I was educated and later tried to find a club to train with. The first club was very harsh so we only went there a couple of times ... then I found a better club where most of the work was +R. I remember a long discussion with 8-10 different handlers about how to teach a dog to retrieve ... I had just been informed by the AKC people a week prior that the only reliable way was a forced retrieve ... non of the ShutzH people would do the forced retrieve, every singel one at the club taught it as a game.

I learned a lot during my 6 months in Sweden ... where both pinch collars and e-collars are banned, where it's illegal to leave your dog more than 6 hrs without company or walks ... and where most people have learned to be positive in handling their dogs, just as spanking children is out-lawed. It was a joy to work my dog there and we both learned a lot. I can tell you that I didn't believe in clickers before I went there ... After seeing the performance of some clicker trained dogs there I now LOVE my clickers and find them in every pocket. LOL

That was AWESOME Inga, I have to show that video to a friend with a JR.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

In SchH, I don't think I've ever seen a dog exhibited on a flat collar, only on a chain, but the chain must be on the dead ring, it cannot be on the live ring


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Inga said:


> Abbylynn you might appreciate this video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME


Aw Mr.Murphy, I didn't know he passed away. Such a great working dog.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

hast said:


> Sweden ... where both pinch collars and e-collars are banned, where it's illegal to leave your dog more than 6 hrs without company or walks


I didn't know that stuff's now banned in Sweden as well... Those tools have their use and place. As for marker training, just watching videos of marker trained dogs and comparing them with old school forced dogs you can see massive difference. Magic is not in the clicker but in the positive way dog's behavior is shaped - clicker is just an optional tool. All you really need is a nice smelly sausage, a wooden stick and a voice . I'm not sure but I've heard somewhere that criteria for getting IPO titles has sharpened after marker training became popular.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm not entirely against prong or e-collars ... they have their uses if used properly and Mandy wore a prong for a while ... Most people in Sweden almost fainted when I said that though, lol. I know that there are alternatives to the clicker, and use several myself because I'm not always coordinated enough to get the clicker functioning in all circumstances. 

I was astounded when I saw young (REALLY young) dogs literally beg to work, and work with a snappy happiness I rarely see at home where most peoples' training lean mostly towards corrective. My girl has the attitude and my experience there taught me that I absolutely do not need to exchange attitude for perfection like I was told ... rather the opposite, with the attitude I can achieve perfection.


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## Snoopy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

This thread has been informative and interesting. It's not a sport I want to get into, but I do envy the level of obedience demonstrated in those videos!

Also just wanted to comment that this statement made me LOL for real:



Bordermom said:


> my goofs will be dragging each other around in the snow (one dog plays dead, the other two drag the body around)


That must be hilarious to watch.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

The "abuse" thing really...well, it makes me laugh a little really. We've got two kongs attatched by a rope (Caeda used to get kibble from them, but they're too small for a meal now). Yesterday she was running around the house shaking her head as hard as she could so they'd whap her up the side....she hits herself WAY harder than we would ever consider! Sticks in the ShutzH vids....nothing compared to what she does to herself. 

I am very curious about Shutzhund. I really think Caeda would LOVE it. Until I got her out of it Caeda's favorite thing to do when she was hyper and on leash was launch at my arm and hang off (oddly and thankfully enough she only did this when I was wearing a puffy jacket). It was a hard habit to break, but we have. She loves rough play and since we started using tug as a reward she's come a long way in "capping her drive" so to speak. I got Mike Ellis's "Power of playing tug"...really got us moving in the right direction!

Here is the questions though....can someone get into SchutzH without a club or trainer? I'd love to do it with her, knowing her temperament, and from what I read she would excel! I doubt I'd ever get to a competing point with her (though I'm sure I'd love it), but its for her fun, not just mine. I've been tempted to play tug with a bite sleeve instead of the tug toy. Is it dangerous (specifically the protection portion) to try training any of this stuff without assistance? Are there good resources to read (or watch)? From what I understand the biggest component is ensuring before starting that the dog has a solid "out". Is this accurate? 

I don't mean to highjack the thread, but I've been looking for games and sports that Caeda would enjoy and SchutzH really caught me. I figure this is in the new spirit of this thread that I've seen: sharing info and educating!


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Yes ... Mandy hits herself with the balls to the point of me wincing ... She's fine though and keep grabbing the rope of the ball rather than the ball, because it's so much fun to "kill" the ball. LOL

I do not recommend you to try to work her in protection on your own, it's too easy to hurt them if you don't know what to do. The dog jumps for the bite and gets thrown around ... When the dog jumps up the helper has to have some 'give' in the correct direction so they aren't hurt in the neck or mouth. I've heard of some quite severe neck injuries from inexperienced helpers ... so if you have no education as a helper at all I guess it could get pretty bad.

I definitely recommend joining a club though. Most clubs lets you come for a couple of sessions for both you and the dog to be evaluated before you pay. It is so much fun just to watch the dogs and their demeanor on the field ... It clearly shows what genetics means. I guess it's like for a person who's very artistic or athletically gifted, they shine when they get to do what they're good at.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

You can always train the exercises at home. I would not get into any type of bite work withouta trainer, and a great one at that. You can tug with your dog, even with a sleeve, as long as it does not escalate. However keep in mind in protection, you don't want the dog to take commands from the decoy. Also if you train the dog to bite you, your dog will likely bite you if you are getting mugged lol.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

mmm....just as I suspected, which is incredibly unfortunate. I've looked around and there are no clubs here. There are three basic obedience trainers in town, and they were hard to find!
I actually expected that it would be more dangerous for the handler (me and my DH) than for the dog, but the neck injuries are a very good point, I won't even use a halti in fear of neck problems. 
I will keep asking around, who knows, maybe there is one. We had no idea of the doggy social night until we learned of it word of mouth. I'd ask the trainer there, but I'm not sure she'd be much help (getting a vibe that she doesn't like us, no idea why).
There is one police dog in town, I wonder if talking to the handler might help me get in on their training sessions (I'm sure training must be ongoing for those guys). Maybe he can at least point me in the right direction. 
Are there any good books/resources out there for the other SchutzH basics? I can always restrict any bitework to our normal tug play. I've seen some books on DogWise, but I'm reluctant to waste cash and reading time if I don't know whether the book is a good one or not. Seriously considering more Mike Ellis vids, but WOW they're expensive!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Inga >> OMG that was sooooo cute!!!! 

All joking aside, can any breed do this? Bc when It is time to gy a new pup again, I would like to get into this sport.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> can any breed do this? Bc when It is time to gy a new pup again, I would like to get into this sport.


Well, JR Terrier can do it so.... 

Also, schutzhund is not the only sport of this type, you can see others here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondio_Ring . And, you can train an adult dog for this as well if he's an active dog - ie. is kinda hyper, chases a ball, a stick, loves tug play etc. you know, has drive. It's just just more challenging for an adult dog because most pet dogs lack focus due to incorrect training and they learned well to ignore their owners who usually never personally engage with their dogs. In fact, if you can teach your adult dog to look and keep looking at you on command regardless of distraction, you're ready for any sport .


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

If you want to get into ShutzH or ring sports I'd suggest that you find your next puppy in the working group. It is much easier to get the level of focus you need in that grop, that's what genetics do.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

First off, thanks to hast and paws for the clarifications. I'm certainly not an expert in the realm of Schutzhund (far, FAR from it lol) ... but I'm learning.  



Greater Swiss said:


> Are there any good books/resources out there for the other SchutzH basics? I can always restrict any bitework to our normal tug play. I've seen some books on DogWise, but I'm reluctant to waste cash and reading time if I don't know whether the book is a good one or not. Seriously considering more Mike Ellis vids, but WOW they're expensive!


I've read "_Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition_" by Sheila Booth, and it may provide some limited fundamentals for you. In it, the author also refers to another of her books "_Schutzhund Obedience:Training in Drive_", which admittedly I haven't read. Although if it's from Sheila Booth, it's likely something I would personally approve of, gain from, and enjoy.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> I've read "_Purely Positive Training: Companion to Competition_" by Sheila Booth, and it may provide some limited fundamentals for you. In it, the author also refers to another of her books "_Schutzhund Obedience:Training in Drive_", which admittedly I haven't read. Although if it's from Sheila Booth, it's likely something I would personally approve of, gain from, and enjoy.


I've been staring at that "Schutzhund Obedience" through Dogwise in ebook format for ages now. With your recommendation of the author I'll likely get it after our trip and start reading 
Thanks!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

One more question ... what age should a dog be for this sport? Should you wait until the growth plates are done? Such as Abbylynn .... she seems to be high drive ... to maybe qualify ... but still I am interested as she is only just approximately turned one year old ... and given the breed mixes ( Dobie/Rott ) would she need to wait until a little older? 

Thanks!


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

It depends a bit on the dog's drive, how the dog react to that kind of stimuli. Most dogs get started after they got their permanent teeth.


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## VersaillesGrrl (Jan 29, 2012)

Couple days old, but this is a very informative thread 

I compete in Schutzhund with my german shepherd. She is a 10 month old little spitfire of a working line GSD, and her father made it to the world team this year. We have been training since she was very small, and she LOVES it. Abusive? As soon as I put on her harness and long line, she is DRAGGING me to the field, barking, tail wagging, looking for the decoy. When she gets the sleeve, she brings it back to the decoy asking him to do it again. Getting her back to the car is difficult because she wants to pull me back to him. She loves it!

Protection is a very small part of it. She loves the retrieve, she loves obedience, and she is smart as a whip. She is going to love tracking I'm sure as well. The bitework is fun and yes, is both of our favorites, but it takes a VERY well rounded, balanced nerved dog to compete well at schutzhund. I trust my dog 100% that she would not bite somebody because of our protection training. 

I am going to convert the schutzhund bitework to personal protection as she matures, and I know that she is the type of dog that would not bite just to bite. When you train in protection with a TRAINER that knows what they are doing, your dog knows not to react unless you cue them. It is conditioned into them to only bark/bite when they are told to do so.

THIS is what personal protection is about  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n3TlqQZVyQ&list=UU4HTUxBosnniOt-ZKfcktCQ&index=29&feature=plcp

Dog certainly looks trust worthy to me!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Good video ... I did this years ago with my Doberman Pinscher Tobasco ... Tobasco put himself between the children's bedroom and the invader when my "X" broke into my home during the middle of the night.  He did his job ............


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