# E Collar Pro/Con



## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

So Christmas was a disaster for all involved, I literally spent a good 20 minutes crying on Royce's kennel because I just couldn't get him to respond to me at my parents house and because of that dog training techniques were brought up. E Collar being one of them. First off let me say IM NOT REALLY THINKING ABOUT GETTING A SHOCK COLLAR FOR ROYCE. This is just from a research stand point. lol. 

Here is the experience I have with them. 

When I was 8 we had a beagle that anytime the door even cracked open would take off through it, across the yard, down the drive, and into the road( the road that eventually took his life). I was raised by my grandparents so they had no clue how to stop this behavior, so someone said to my grandfather" Hey I train rabbit beagles and here is what I use" So they brought us one that fit badly, we placed it on, let the dog out he flew down the road, my grandpa called once, no response, ZAP! We used it no consistently for a week and the guy took it back. I also will say that said Beagle(Shiloh btw, he was named by an 8 year old that loved the movie real original) learned very quickly that he could only not go down the road when the collar was on. 

Fast forward to when I was pregnant, bed rest, very sick and we had Pirate. The jumper. We tried everything, and I mean everything to get him to stop and it was very dangerous for me. So we had to do something. Mom bought one. Mom let him wear it for a few hours with no corrections or anything of the sort, just wore it like a collar, we paid no mind to him. Then when he would jump she would give him a command, no jump, if he didn't respond she hit the button(she started with the beep one first). Not only within a week of this did Pirate stop jumping completely, but he also improved in a lot of other behaviors that the collar wasn't even used on(collar was only used for jumping, everything else we corrected as normal). Pirate never showed fear from us or anything....he did eat it when we left it on the kennel when we went out to a movie, but we never had to replace it, we never had to use it again. 

So thats all the experience I have with them. I know some people say that they are only for people that are to lazy to train properly and I used to think that, but like in Pirates jumping we had tried everything, everything and we needed it to stop, it was a danger to me, and would be to my daughter when she was born as well. 

So are they all bad? Or is there a mix. 

So tell me what you think the pros and cons are for them? Or if you think its all cons and pros?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Like everything else, it's a balance.

I have to use the e collars for some behaviors with one of my dogs. He whistle whines, and it is an obnoxious sound. He can't be doing that in public when he is crated. I cannot correct him for the behavior in any other manner, so the e collar is the route we chose, and he is rewarded for silence.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

I will probably make my own thread about this eventually,  but we bought an ecollar for our dog about a month ago. She's a great dog when it comes to commands, but she has some self rewarding behaviors that we tried EVERYTHING for and they were dangerous. We have only shocked her for chasing the cats (after trying to desensitize her for months. It was becoming dangerous). She no longer chases the cats. Using the vibrate (which literally feels like a phone going off. We tested evey level on ourselves before using it) we were able to break her obssessive focus on searching for food long enough to give her a command and engage her in a different behavior. We had a dog that caused tension every day and we had conversations that could be summarized by "something has to change or she can't be living here anymore." Now she's a joy to be around.

So, do I think that it is an ideal c
Traininh choice? No. Do I think it's an option when behaviors are so extreme that they're having an extreme negative affect on your family and it has not pregressed with r+ training? It's something to research and consider.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

My take on them, I do not believe that they are the right choice for *most* applications, owners or dogs. On the other hand, I can think of a number of situations where, in the right hands, they are the perfect tool. 

After much consideration and research I used one for proofing recall on Otis and couldn't be happier with the results...there has been no fallout and he recalls beautifully from great distance and outside visual range. I also see them used daily by lazy, ignorant owners where they've ruined perfectly good dogs and/or otherwise reduced the dog's quality of life. In the right hands they will be used responsibly and are a fantastic tool...in the wrong hands they are dangerous.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Well first, let me clarify that I’ve only done low stim e-collar training. Thus far most people have just described usage that basically breaks down to “wait for them to do X, then hit the button to make them stop.” I don’t necessarily have a problem with that, but I’ve never used them as such and it’s not my preferred method whatsoever. And it isn't something I generally condone for average owners. It’s also IMO the least productive use of the tool. E-collars are actually quite flexible and go far beyond extinguishing behaviors with P+. Using them on a very very low level for R- is my preferred method if I’m going to use an e-collar.

Pros: 
-Can be used remotely – doesn’t matter how far the dog is from you
-Behaviors taught via stim are very reliable, generally
-Very flexible tool with many uses
-Dogs can often quickly be off leash with collar on – allows freedom safely
-Highly adjustable models allow you to use the mildest aversive that the dog still responds to
-Low stim training can be practical in situations where other methods are not
-IME it can get the dog’s attention even on a very, very low level


Cons:
-Expensive. Anything but a few brands is a waist of money IMO so you’ll be spending at least $200 if you want to do it right.
-Dog must wear collar more or less all the time to prevent him from becoming “collar smart”
-You have to remember to keep the collar and remote charged
-Owners may get frustrated and resort to “hitting the ‘easy’ button” (high level stim) to make the dog stop a behavior
-People with opinions but no knowledge love to judge you. That one, eh, doesn’t bother me so much but other people definitely get worked about it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm going to turn this around a little and ask, what exactly is your goal? I'm not sure what you would be trying to train - what exactly was he doing at your parents' house?


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't think I would use one. The breeder I got my dog from had e collars on all of her dogs. Everyone I have met with a dog used for hunting uses an e-collar. I think they use it more for recall than anything else. I think that they can be useful if you are out in the woods and don't want your dog getting lost, but I don't like the idea of using them to correct unwanted behavior. On the other hand I understand that other methods of training may not always work and an e-collar may be a last resort. It doesn't bother me when I see a dog wearing an e-collar.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sclevenger said:


> I know some people say that they are only for people that are to lazy to train properly and I used to think that, but like in Pirates jumping we had tried everything, everything and we needed it to stop,


It isn't always because people are too lazy, sometimes it's merely because they don't have the necessary skills, themselves. They have the desire just not the know-how. And that's where hiring a professional r+ trainer could / probably should come into play.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Right ^^. I'm not blanket opposed to e-collars, but I think that someone should be very clear why they are using one, and have a really specific goal in mind. 

Where I was going with my earlier post is that "he wouldn't listen at my parents" just seems sort of nebulous with no clear training goal or purpose for using an e-collar. I'm not sure that in this case it will be the right tool for the job, nor am I sure that the expectations for the dog in the context of a Christmas gathering were realistic.

ETA: And I realize the discussion is a bit hypothetical, since the OP has already stated she is not seriously considering using one. I just think that it is a tool that should be used with very specific goals in mind, but a huge advantage of them to me is that they can quickly achieve results for behaviors that you might not have the luxury of spending the time using other techniques to achieve.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> Right ^^. I'm not blanket opposed to e-collars, but I think that someone should be very clear why they are using one, and have a really specific goal in mind.
> 
> Where I was going with my earlier post is that "he wouldn't listen at my parents" just seems sort of nebulous with no clear training goal or purpose for using an e-collar. I'm not sure that in this case it will be the right tool for the job, nor am I sure that the expectations for the dog in the context of a Christmas gathering were realistic.


My thoughts exactly.


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## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

We've used E collars pretty successfully with both of my grandparents malamutes, but the ones I'm used too don't shock. They have 3 different tones, and a vibrate as well. The vibrate is more gentle then my phone is on vibrate. We used them as a safety precaution when they were let off leash. Without them they wouldn't have been able to have as much fun I don't think. We just taught them that a beep meant to come back, and it worked EVERY single time. If they didn't listen we'd do the louder tones, and if they were chasing something and didn't respond, we'd do the vibrate, and then they would come running back. I don't think E collars are bad if used RESPONSIBLY and PROPERLY. I don't think shocking the crap out of the dog is gonna help, but I do think that if used responsibly they are good. Both Licky and Bandita had no fear of them, and they were in no way shape or form "scared of us", when the collar would beep those dogs would come SPRINTING towards you happy as can be. So I don't know, I'm on the fence when it comes to them....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My problem with this is, that from everything you have said about Royce (in the other thread where we were laughing about him and Jack), I do not believe you will accomplish anything definitive with an e-collar. As others have said, you seem to have a lot of frustration, but no really clear goals. I've used an ecollar - for snake aversion training and to page a deaf dog. They are, IMO, basically a higher risk (to the dog and of fallout) version of a clicker. IF you don't have something specific you are trying to teach, good timing and a dog who is going to pick up what you are going to teach they are worse than useless. They're not going to teach the dog, but they are going to upset the dog and take a stable temperament and make it less than stable.

Pirate, as you've described him, was a really smart dog. You had something you wanted to stop him doing it and used it to make him stop. Ditto wanting the beagle to stop door dashing - very specific.

What, *specifically* do you want Royce to stop doing? Because if there isn't an answer to that - a really clear, really specific, and probably mostly singular one, it's not going to work. Being loud and flaky and excitable? Not your answer.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Right ^^. I'm not blanket opposed to e-collars, but I think that someone should be very clear why they are using one, and have a really specific goal in mind.
> 
> Where I was going with my earlier post is that "he wouldn't listen at my parents" just seems sort of nebulous with no clear training goal or purpose for using an e-collar. I'm not sure that in this case it will be the right tool for the job, nor am I sure that the expectations for the dog in the context of a Christmas gathering were realistic.
> 
> ETA: And I realize the discussion is a bit hypothetical, since the OP has already stated she is not seriously considering using one. I just think that it is a tool that should be used with very specific goals in mind, but a huge advantage of them to me is that they can quickly achieve results for behaviors that you might not have the luxury of spending the time using other techniques to achieve.





CptJack said:


> My problem with this is, that from everything you have said about Royce (in the other thread where we were laughing about him and Jack), I do not believe you will accomplish anything definitive with an e-collar. As others have said, you seem to have a lot of frustration, but no really clear goals. I've used an ecollar - for snake aversion training and to page a deaf dog. They are, IMO, basically a higher risk (to the dog and of fallout) version of a clicker. IF you don't have something specific you are trying to teach, good timing and a dog who is going to pick up what you are going to teach they are worse than useless. They're not going to teach the dog, but they are going to upset the dog and take a stable temperament and make it less than stable.
> 
> Pirate, as you've described him, was a really smart dog. You had something you wanted to stop him doing it and used it to make him stop. Ditto wanting the beagle to stop door dashing - very specific.
> 
> What, *specifically* do you want Royce to stop doing? Because if there isn't an answer to that - a really clear, really specific, and probably mostly singular one, it's not going to work. Being loud and flaky and excitable? Not your answer.


 
Sometimes I think Sassafras and CptJack are inside my head.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Really like the replies. I do want to say that the problems that arose Tuesday and Wednesday is what stemmed the conversation. I've never entertained the thought of E Collar for Royce. However my mom found me bawling like a baby by Royce's kennel we started talking. She has seen great successes with them(granted she knows how to use them properly). To her it seems like a simple solution to me it seems scary and what if I ruin my dog, but I have no true pro or con to even have a discussion with her. 

For those wondering about what happened. 
- he lunged at everyone walking by, even one time pulling a very heavy table with him. Non aggression just excitement 
- knocked my daughter over several times jumping at her, once causing her to crack her had on the floor. 
- he caused my hand to swell up because I was holding his collar to keep him from runnin in circles and jumping
- he jumped on everyone over and over
- tried to body block him in the kitchen to keep him from the living room and he just jumped through and over me leaving a huge scratch on my face and arms 
- he knocked me into a wall, knocked me over by slamming into me with his body
- barked and barked in his kennel. Thrashed around like crazy and broke the door trying to get through because he couldn't get to where we were. 

Also this was after exercise, leashed, giving commands he knows, he just blocks you out. This isn't just Christmas Day problems. All but the barking in kennel he does at home in a normal day. 

I can't afford sessions with a professional trainer. I honesty feel overwhelmed and cry a lot. 
We are exercising everyday, he knows the commands he just won't listen. My Mom described him as a pushy bully. 

But despite all this I never really thought an e collar was right for him. It was just something we talked about and so I wanted to hear what your thoughts on the collar itself was. 

Most of you already know my frustrations with Royce. We have tried and still doing the suggestions btw.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm sorry, but if he "knows the commands he just won't listen." then he doesn't know the commands. They either mean nothing because you keep saying them and he's choosing to blow you off, or he's distracted and you haven't proofed them with that level of distraction. 

Back to basics. One room, alone with him. No distractions. Come, Name game, Sit, all with a food motivator. Slowly bring in the distractions.

:/


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sclevenger said:


> Really like the replies. I do want to say that the problems that arose Tuesday and Wednesday is what stemmed the conversation. I've never entertained the thought of E Collar for Royce. However my mom found me bawling like a baby by Royce's kennel we started talking. She has seen great successes with them(granted she knows how to use them properly). To her it seems like a simple solution to me it seems scary and what if I ruin my dog, but I have no true pro or con to even have a discussion with her.
> 
> For those wondering about what happened.
> - he lunged at everyone walking by, even one time pulling a very heavy table with him. Non aggression just excitement
> ...



Even if all of this is absolutely true (and I do believe you), there's too *much* going on for an e-collar to help. Unless there is one, single, identifiable problem - and the only single issue you seem to have here is something too broad to apply (focus/attention) - you're not going to get the issue resolved with an e-collar. They are useful, but are incredibly specific. You can either use them to train a command - single command - or as an aversion to keep the dog from ever doing or going near something. You can't... use them for the issue you seem to be having. Positive training works by saying 'do this specific thing'. Punishment says 'don't do this specific thing'. You can use an e-collar for either, but you can not communicate a general 'NO. DON"T LIKE THAT" with one, for EVERYTHING that he's doing that bothers you, and it won't teach him to pay attention and listen, or to NOT be a hyper butt who blows you off and barks. If it was just barking, fine, but the issue here is just too... broad. 

E-collars won't and don't built focus. They don't do what you're looking for.

And again: I say that as someone who uses one on a fairly regular basis with Bug, and has used them pretty harshly with all the dogs. 

The only way you're going to get Royce there is to build an attention span and focus and there aren't any short cuts for that. One room. You and him. Slow build and a solid foundation and lots and lots of time. There is, unfortunately, nothing that's going to give you an easier, or faster, way to deal with that.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Even if all of this is absolutely true, there's too *much* going on for an e-collar to help. Unless there is one, single, identifiable problem - you're not going to get the issue resolved with an e-collar. They are useful, but are incredibly specific. You can either use them to train a command - single command - or as an aversion to keep the dog from ever doing or going near something. You can't... use them for the issue you seem to be having.
> 
> Which is either not knowing the commands or being highly excitable and distractable. They won't and don't built focus. They don't do what you're looking for.
> 
> ...


Are we in the same head? "ONE ROOM" XD


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> Are we in the same head? "ONE ROOM" XD


Apparently!

One BORING room, at that. 

(Grab a clicker. Click and treat (or yes and treat) for calmly paying attention to you. Go from there.)


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## Zorro13 (Nov 11, 2013)

It sounds like he just needs more proofing to distractions. In my short time with your type of dog (and I admit still smaller than your guy is!) I've learned that 90% of the training is convincing them to do the things they know. My suggestion would be to train him to be well behaved around large groups at your house when you're not actually having an event. That way all of your focus can be on training him and not on socializing/making sure the party is going ok. Do you have friends or family that would be willing to come over and have a "party" where you brief them on the proper responses to his over-excitement?


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Even if all of this is absolutely true (and I do believe you), there's too *much* going on for an e-collar to help. Unless there is one, single, identifiable problem - and the only single issue you seem to have here is something too broad to apply (focus/attention) - you're not going to get the issue resolved with an e-collar. They are useful, but are incredibly specific. You can either use them to train a command - single command - or as an aversion to keep the dog from ever doing or going near something. You can't... use them for the issue you seem to be having. Positive training works by saying 'do this specific thing'. Punishment says 'don't do this specific thing'. You can use an e-collar for either, but you can not communicate a general 'NO. DON"T LIKE THAT" with one, for EVERYTHING that he's doing that bothers you, and it won't teach him to pay attention and listen, or to NOT be a hyper butt who blows you off and barks. If it was just barking, fine, but the issue here is just too... broad.
> 
> E-collars won't and don't built focus. They don't do what you're looking for.
> 
> ...


Thats what I thought to.There is just to much.

My mom has it in her head though that one step at a time thing. Correct the barking, correct the lunging, on and so forth. But I just didn't think that would work. I think I was just looking for 1. thoughts period on an E colalr and 2. Be sure I wasn't just blowing it off because I don't want to sort of thing.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Zorro13 said:


> It sounds like he just needs more proofing to distractions. In my short time with your type of dog (and I admit still smaller than your guy is!) I've learned that 90% of the training is convincing them to do the things they know. My suggestion would be to train him to be well behaved around large groups at your house when you're not actually having an event. That way all of your focus can be on training him and not on socializing/making sure the party is going ok. Do you have friends or family that would be willing to come over and have a "party" where you brief them on the proper responses to his over-excitement?


No, I don't. Thats the problem. No one will come to my house because he lunges at them. 

Its not just big gatherings. Its privately at home too. When I come home, Fiance comes home, my mom stops by for a visit. My in laws come out of state to visit.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I could give you a full list of pros and cons, but I'd be talking about the pros and cons with the dogs I've dealt with and how I train with an e collar...not your dogs. I train mostly (like Emily) with low stim, though I admit to handing out the odd "speeding ticket" for an ignored recall in a potentially dangerous situation. I am seeing (as has been mentioned) a great deal of frustration.....this is NOT the time to have an e collar in your hand, it can ruin your training and potentially your dog. I use e collars a great deal (or my dogs wear them a great deal, but they are rarely used any more, except for emergencies and the odd "tone" for a reminder). I think e collars can be fantastic tools BUT before you consider using one, you have a LOT of work to do. All of the thing you are having issues with, you need to make a training plan for each of these behaviors, or have a strategy for alternate behaviors to expect/ask for, and then you have to do a TON of positive reinforcement work, all of this before you put one on your dog. I know part of you (and yes, this may sound condescending though I don't mean it to be) wants a magic wand. An e collar is NOT a magic wand. The principles for using one, and the amount of time spent to train using one are similar in some regards to marker training. If you can't get a solid start on these behaviors with marker training, all you will do with an e collar is confuse your dog and cause him varying amounts of pain. There can be a great deal of unintended consequences to account for with e collar use, and haphazard use makes these worse. I know you don't want this!

Two other things to consider with an e collar. First, consider other people. Do NOT let other people touch the controller, ever, unless it is perhaps one other person who is on EXACTLY the same page as you regarding it's use. Secondly; you get what you pay for. Those ones you see that are about $100....they are junk, they are set WAY too high, are unreliable and not normally water proof. If you are going to use one please realize that you need to do some research, and consider your budget. The cheapest I've seen that I would consider even vaguely useful is in the $200+ range. Both of mine were over $300....and one of them turned out to be junk too (though that was mainly build quality). 

If you want to know some of the better brands I can help you with that, and if you decide to go the e collar route PM me, I can point you to some resources that are out there that are on the more reasonable end of the spectrum of using one BUT only if it sounds like you've got a good start on dealing with the behaviors in a positive manner (including under distractions, and some proofing). If you want to strap it on your dog and have it be a magic wand to let out frustration....you're on your own. 

Sorry if all of this sounds harsh, but I would rather be harsh and potentially insulting (and maybe give you some food for thought) than either tell you they are fantastic or tell you that they are evil torture devices. Good luck on dealing with all of those behaviors, I've been there, I think we've all been pretty frustrated with our dogs at one time or another....take a breath, make a training plan (preferably positive!) and you'll manage I'm sure! It'll just take some time....


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sclevenger said:


> We are exercising everyday, he knows the commands he just won't listen. My Mom described him as a pushy bully.


Sounds like what your dog REALLY needs most, is a job.

I found this. http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=2262&S=1&SourceID=47 You might want to read through the entire article, although imo the salient part of it is ...

_"10. Give your dog healthy opportunities to use that wonderful quality of initiative. The so-called “pushy” dogs are that way for a reason. They’ve been bred for the ability to work, and they need to work. They’re unlikely to be well adjusted without meaningful work to do." _

No great revelation, I suppose. But anyways.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Sounds like what your dog REALLY needs most, is a job.
> 
> I found this. http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?A=2262&S=1&SourceID=47 You might want to read through the entire article, although imo the salient part of it is ...
> 
> ...


I concur. A job is definitely what he needs. I know he is a bit young now but you can start doing some foundation training for sports (agility or joring sports come to mind, especially joring with all the pulling Rouce does). Aussies are hard workers and they can be quite bull-headed. Regular exercise sounds like it isn't doing much for him. 

Hope that sheds a little light on Royce's crazy behavior.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> I concur. A job is definitely what he needs. I know he is a bit young now but you can start doing some foundation training for sports (agility or joring sports come to mind, especially joring with all the pulling Rouce does). Aussies are hard workers and they can be quite bull-headed. Regular exercise sounds like it isn't doing much for him.
> 
> Hope that sheds a little light on Royce's crazy behavior.


I agree with this, I just don't know what to have him do. My other Aussies were manageable until they were able to jog with me, but Royce is not manageable. We are struggling financially so I can't shell out for a trainer, classes and all that as much as I would love to! :-(. 

Sometimes he is so good, and then other times its crazy.
I will admit that he has gotten worse since Brandon brought that pup home though, that is when things started going past what I could handle emotionally or physically for that matter.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

sclevenger said:


> I agree with this, I just don't know what to have him do. My other Aussies were manageable until they were able to jog with me, but Royce is not manageable. We are struggling financially so I can't shell out for a trainer, classes and all that as much as I would love to! :-(.
> 
> Sometimes he is so good, and then other times its crazy.
> I will admit that he has gotten worse since Brandon brought that pup home though, that is when things started going past what I could handle emotionally or physically for that matter.


A job will help, but it can be hard to find the right one, and the time/resources to do it. It is worth it though! Having a second dog in the house can make things more difficult. I know that Caeda's behavior slipped a great deal with Dexter around (though while she was doing her shutzhund obedience "job" she did great). It is hard to keep up with two (or more) dogs emotionally and physically, especially when they all need training! Been in that situation (still am some days!), it is tough and frustrating!

My suggestion for the behaviors that are driving you nuts.....try to pick one alternate behavior that will prevent as many behaviors as possible (I personally find "down" to be excellent....sit can allow for too much moving and fidgeting, and sometimes a place command isn't practical in all situations), and work on that one, and work on it hard. Duration, distractions and distance, work on it daily, several times a day, even just a short 5 minute sessions. Eventually, when you get to work up in a controlled situation with distractions you MIGHT be able to pull that command out during one of the "annoying" real life situations and it could end it (at least for a time). Don't forget to treat for those real life situations....or it might not stick, real life is still training... but picking just one good solid alternate behavior might improve things for you a bit. If things get decent there, and you decide you want to try an e collar just to reinforce the behavior, that would be the time to do it, with a lot of care, but you might just find you don't need it at all if you do a thorough enough job without it (if you want calm, I would really suggest using food rather than toys...I find working with a toy can cause a bit too much excitement....not necessarily the best if you want the dog to "wind down").


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

Do you have a flirt pole? I know they get mentioned a lot here, but it's because they work. You could try ten to fifteen minutes of play before you take him on his walk and he should be pooped by the time he gets home.

Another way to tire him out is to have him "pay" for things. If you're playing fetch every second or third throw he should be practicing commands with the ball as a reward. I feel like he's not getting his physical needs met...and in response he's overly physical. Ellie was like that, too, and upping her play and introducing the flirt pole was instrumental in it becoming a joy, rather than a duty, to live with her.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

blenderpie said:


> Do you have a flirt pole? I know they get mentioned a lot here, but it's because they work. You could try ten to fifteen minutes of play before you take him on his walk and he should be pooped by the time he gets home.
> 
> Another way to tire him out is to have him "pay" for things. If you're playing fetch every second or third throw he should be practicing commands with the ball as a reward. I feel like he's not getting his physical needs met...and in response he's overly physical. Ellie was like that, too, and upping her play and introducing the flirt pole was instrumental in it becoming a joy, rather than a duty, to live with her.


No where do I get a flirt pole. That has been mentioned to be as well. Im very interested in them, don't know where to find them. 

I do agree with everyone about the physical needs not being met, i've been trying so hard to meet them and I guess I just keep falling short. Walks honestly do nothing for him, so we got out in the yard and do a hard run and fetch for about 30+ minutes. I will say there is a huge difference in him afterwards. It had been icy raining for a solid week before Christmas so we hadn't been outside at all, and mom lives in town so we had no choice but to go on a walk that doesn't help him, I tried to let him off leash on the trail, Christmas eve no one was there but a couple of Amish buggies that past....the one thing that he does excel at is a very solid recall. Im pretty proud of that. lol. Of course I can't take credit it in that, he just wants to be near me all the time. 

I think a good place to start is like what was mentioned is to sit down and make a list of the issues and try to make an action plan. I think there are just so many problems that it makes me feel overwhelmed and I get frustrated. Most of all the issues stem from over excitement though. After making the action plan maybe start with one at a time. 

I want to thank everyone though too though. Im so frustrated and everything is so crazy, the puppy has made things 10x worse and its making me feel worse. My fiance doesn't see the problem at all, so there is no help there with the pup. Of course I don't know how you don't: At this moment, the puppy is in his kennel in the bedroom and just Royce is out and Royce is quietly playing with his toys. When the puppy is out he is on crack. And he wasn't ready for that, we were already struggling with him anyways and then you bring a new puppy in. Im just so mad and frustrated. 

Christmas Eve was just a disaster with him, I cried a lot, people were talking shock collars, my brother said I should look into those places where you drop him off at like a doggie boot camp or some training center or something, couple other family members(fiance included) started tossin around the "rehome" word. It was just a mess and I always defend him, but this time I couldn't, I mean people got physically hurt this time. Im still supporting a bruise where he pushed me in a wall, and where he bit me( I was trying to pet him and he always starts doing circles and jumping, and I told him down and tried to pet again and he grabbed my hand, no broke skin or aggression, just excitement but left a bruise). You can't defend that, I just put him in his kennel and cried some more. ugh....


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

This is what I have, more or less...

KONG Flirt Pole

it works great with just about every dog I've ever used it with. It's the only thing that can take the edge off of Sir and it taught him to behave around the cats.

eta; Where in Ohio are you located? If you didn't mind meeting in the middle, I would be willing to meet up with you and him at a dog facility and go over some things/highlight what you need to work on, etc.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I didn't realize it but I guess I have a "flirt pole" because I have one of those Kong fishing pole toys. My dogs seem puzzled by it but the cats think it's fun . You can also make one out of a broomstick and a rope.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly, I think you need to rehome the puppy. I don't see another large, hairy, and very high energy young dog helping this situation at all.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Honestly, I think you need to rehome the puppy. I don't see another large, hairy, and very high energy young dog helping this situation at all.


I have to agree with this. 

I mean, honestly, Kylie and Thud together aren't twice the work - they're four times the work, because they feed off each other. I don't regret keeping Thud, but two high drive, high energy dogs together turn into about four - or maybe six. They ramp each other up, they both go deaf when they get into that zone. The keys been keeping them out of it, about 95% of the time, working with them separately and individually, and exercising the CRAP out of them. Also jobs and classes. It's been a ton of time, money, and work and Thud's still not where I want him because I have to compete with his desire to be an idiot with Kylie. 

And one of those dogs weighs less than 15lbs, who was close to rock solid, well trained, and focused on me so had some room to backslide.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I completely agree. The puppy was not supposed to stay. Now everytime I bring up rehoming him I get:

1. "Why should I punished and not allowed to have my own dog because you can't make your dog behave and the puppy makes me HIM act like an idiot" 

2. " There is no problem with Diesel. Diesel isn't crazy like Royce" 

Now number 1 I have no answer for when he says that but number 2 I have explained to death that he is an Aussie or border collie mix. He is going to be high energy. He is going to be as big as Royce and he is going to be hairy. It falls on deaf ears because he isn't as hyper as Royce was at he same age. I keep saying the puppy is like 12 weeks old, Royce's energy now and Royce's energy then is no where near the same and neither will Diesels. 

But Royce feeds off him. Your right on that. When he is out Royce is at his worst but when the puppy is put away he is back to being my good boy with a few things to work on not the crazy pycho that has me crying in a corner. 

I tried to tell my fiancé that I'm not saying you can never ever have a dog because of Royce, but right now is not the time. It falls on deaf ears. :-(.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I have to agree with this.
> 
> I mean, honestly, Kylie and Thud together *aren't twice the work - they're four times the work, because they feed off each other.* I don't regret keeping Thud, but two high drive, high energy dogs together turn into about four - or maybe six. They ramp each other up, they both go deaf when they get into that zone. The keys been keeping them out of it, about 95% of the time, working with them separately and individually, and exercising the CRAP out of them. Also jobs and classes. It's been a ton of time, money, and work and Thud's still not where I want him because I have to compete with his desire to be an idiot with Kylie.
> 
> And one of those dogs weighs less than 15lbs, who was close to rock solid, well trained, and focused on me so had some room to backslide.


YES....Caeda and Dexter are a CRAZY amount of work. I can't keep up with them both, and each will backslide a bit now and then (although Dexter has improved a TON with us, it is impossible for us to improve him any more). Dexter was originally meant to be a foster, and this feeding off of each other is one of the main reasons that we are planning to adopt him out rather than keep him forever (we keep putting it off, we love him to death and are scared of him landing in a crap home, but it is killing us time and resource wise, and not helping either dog any). This is the reason I really agree that rehoming the puppy sounds like a good idea, especially since it IS a puppy, far easier to rehome, and better to do sooner rather than later when both have developed worse habits, and the puppy has turned into a hard-to-handle full-grown dog!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

How's that go about significant others that don't listen?

You need to sit down and have a conversation with your SO and ask him to listen to your needs. If he won't... Well, he wouldn't be my significant other anymore.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> How's that go about significant others that don't listen?
> 
> You need to sit down and have a conversation with your SO and ask him to listen to your needs. If he won't... Well, he wouldn't be my significant other anymore.


Well I agree with this. The problem is he feels like I'm ignoring his needs. He wants a dog of his own and has fallen in love with this puppy. Now his do I say well that's great Hun but my needs are more important. Lol. :-(. 

When I say this isn't working. He says how is it not: I clean up after his accidents, I take him out 90% of the time! feed him, on and on....and my response is....he makes my dog crazy

Come on someone has to agree when you say that it sounds like someone trying to get their own selfish way. 

What do I even say to not make it sound that way?


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Also this is causing a divide between Royce and I. I just got home from work, I want to see Royce and spend a moment but here comes Diesela me Royce automatically changes gears, I walk away come back and all is good and then the pup comes flying a leaps at Royce's back, Royce starts twisting jumping whining. I just closed the bedroom door, now Royce is laying pressed up against the bedroom door :-(


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sclevenger said:


> Also this is causing a divide between Royce and I. I just got home from work, I want to see Royce and spend a moment but here comes Diesela me Royce automatically changes gears, I walk away come back and all is good and then the pup comes flying a leaps at Royce's back, Royce starts twisting jumping whining. I just closed the bedroom door, now Royce is laying pressed up against the bedroom door :-(


If I remember correctly, Luna was meant to be his dog was given away, so it's possible there's some extra resentment there. 

You may need to actually start straight up crating and rotate if he absolutely won't give up this puppy without a major issue. Structured playtime for a bit, but otherwise you need to exercise some separation and work hard with Royce on making your presence and paying attention to you rewarding - like we suggested. Keep the door closed, treat him when he gets away from focusing on the other side of the door and work up to it. It's going to be a pain and difficult, but letting them romp together all the time isn't going to accomplish a thing.

Basically, you're going to have to work your behind off with it, either way. There's just going to be more work and time management with the pup there.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

That's how it always is. You guys don't even know half the dogs he brings into the house, "rescuing" them. Most don't stay more than a week so no issue. Luna was his, he picked the breed, he picked the litter, everything. Then he takes me to Royce...then surprise he is tired of Luna. Takes up to much time blah blah. So my sister takes her, loves her. And you guys know where that went. 

I love my fiancé but darn it he doesn't understand dogs aren't disposable and are here just for our own personal entertainment when we want it and then pushed aside like rag dolls when we are done. I overheard him telling his parents that if it didn't work so what he will just take Diesel to the pound. That's not honest affection for the pup like he claims to me when I bring it up. 

I just don't get it. He was never like this with his childhood dog. :-(. 

I'm going to have to sit down and just talk. No matter how it comes out. 

Then make a plan. Lock everyone out but Royce and I. And get us working again dispite the puppy. Play time, train time just. Royce and I. I got this.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Sorry you're going through this. Sounds like a unhappy experience for everyone. Lots of support and good thoughts to you.


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## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

Koko seemed to get a lot more energetic with the puppy around, but I used playing with Cosmo as a reward when the puppy gates were still up. When Koko was calm and collected? She got to play with the puppy. The second she started misbehaving? The puppy gets put downstairs. Koko is an Aussie, so I understand where you are coming from. I've tried to use the puppy with her as a "training tool"-as bad as that sounds. I started working on her commands with puppy standing at the gate, and then I'd leash the puppy up to the kitchen table, and work on her commands, and slowly I had him running around, stealing bones, etc, while training her. You CAN use having another dog in the house as a way to teach Royce to listen with distractions around. Koko has learned if she isn't calm, she can't play with her best friend. And three months later? Koko holds HER bones while the puppy chews on them, she lets him crawl over him, she's not stepping on top of him, she's gentle. 

Just make sure he gets as much attention as the puppy is getting, and in my experience after teaching Koko to be calm around the puppy, Koko has been more well behaved then she ever has been! She has a buddy to romp around with, but its a privilege-and one she had to earn. Now we take them to this one park, and when they are off leash, they run together, play with each other, and most of the time Cosmo wears out Koko pretty quickly.


I'm not saying that the puppy is the greatest idea, but you can make it work to your advantage. Koko is happier and better behaved with Cosmo around. And she was an Aussie who was running him over at the beach, making him yelp, smashing him into sliding glass doors etc. She jumped on people, she barked like crazy, she whined like crazy-she was BORED. Now Koko is played with to the point of exhaustion. And she's benefiting from the ENTIRE experience. Now when people comes over she hasn't met, and the energy level is hyped up, we can actually get her to SIT and WAIT. And I personally attribute it to the fact that not only is she getting to play with someone, but that we've practiced her commands a LOT when the puppy is literally pulling on her fur, her ears, biting at her to get her to play, etc. Aussies are very smart (as you probably know), and I'm sure you can get through to her without the E collar.


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## geobonsai (Dec 30, 2013)

Thank you for starting this thread. I'm trying to learn all I can about the pros and cons of e-collars to help with training my reactive dog Scout, who has shown absolutely no improvement after six-months of conventional reward training methods.

Like most of you all, I've read numerous web articles and watched hours of youtube videos on the subject of e-collar training pros and cons.

What confuses me most is it appears that the dog owners/trainers who are adamantly against the use of e-collars, have never used them; and those who advocate the use of e-collars state they wish they had started using e-collars years earlier (especially with difficult dogs) because the e-collar vastly improved the quality of their lives together. So, I'm puzzled!

What's your personal e-collar success or failure story?

::


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

geobonsai said:


> What's your personal e-collar success or failure story?
> 
> ::


I used an e-collar for the same reason a lot of people do -- to improve my dog's recall. Scot is a Border Collie with insane prey drive, and we do a lot of hiking off-leash. He would chase anything that moved, including coyotes, and I don't believe he even heard me when I tried to call him off (even though he had an excellent recall when not in prey mode). He would also go charging after other dogs (not aggressively, just playfully) whether they wanted anything to do with him or not (I did try to avoid other dogs by hiking in remote areas, but sometimes we would encounter them). I was terrified he'd chase a deer across a highway and get hit, or bolt after the wrong dog and get his face ripped off. 

I bought an e-collar and went to an excellent trainer who I knew had extensive experience using the things with her field-trained retrievers. She worked with me, showing me exactly how to use the stimulation, and had me try it on myself first. I was surprised that it wasn't painful, just a little annoying. We worked to find the correct level for Scot (a pretty low level, as it turned out), and I was relieved that he responded very well and without seeming at all hurt or frightened, just surprised. We used a LOT of food and praise when he recalled after the correction, and he was fine with it. He still wears it when we hike, but I rarely have to touch the button. He still gets rewarded when he comes, and I'm very happy with the results. It's given me peace of mind.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

My experience with them on my dogs is this. 

My first time a dog who ate her own poop. Kind of hard to stop when you live on some acreage. I tried the additives to no avail. The second time I did the e-collar she stopped eating her poop. This has also been used on my other dog's who think that horse poop is delicious. I did find out it is better to spend the money up front for a good e-collar. The distance and timing is so much better on a good e-collar. I also find that using an e-collar to stop the dogs from chasing the horses or other critters on the farm is helpful. 

I do not use them on all my dogs. Some of my dogs do not need them. I use it as a last resort when other training methods did not work or what I am doing could endanger the dog if they do not listen. For example, working with the horses and the dog wants to come in and chase the horse. 

I will say most dogs will learn when the collar is on and when it is not.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I use an e-collar in two ways:

I use it on a very low setting (stim, not vibration - vibration distraught the dog, the low shock doesn't) to page a deaf dog.

I use e-collars and FRY THE HECK (not inflammatory - it's cranked) with the help of a professional trainer to make my dogs extremely snake averse. As in, they see or smell a snake they turn tail and run. Since I had a copperhead IN MY HOUSE this year, this is important. Short term pain for staying alive is something I'm willing to do.


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## Losech (Apr 5, 2011)

I like my e-collar. I used to be against them but now it's practically a godsend with my youngest dog.
He SCREAMS all the friggin time. I go outside the fence he screams. I go to the car he screams. I put him in the car he screams. I leave him in the car he screams. I go to work he screams. Time for food, he screams. I play with another dog he screams. I skin an animal (I hunt) he screams. I honestly cannot see a logical reason for it, and it drives me completely insane. I have zero tolerance for that crappy noise and I tried all the "purely positive" stuff for three months before I bought the e-collar. Should've just done that in the first place. He gets a warning (low setting) for the first screech. If he keeps going he gets a harder hit. He still screams for some things but it's greatly reduced and he stops completely after a few zaps instead of going on and on.
If he's outside when he does it, you can hear him well over 1/3rd mile away. I may be rural but I know the neighbors can hear and do not like it.

Also, he is a very high-drive hunting dog. My neighbors have livestock. They have shot dogs for chasing their animals before. I don't fool around with that and the dog gets the full hit the first time they try to chase my neighbor's livestock. I'd rather the dog(s) be deathly afraid of sheep than think they are a fun object to chase and bite.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

I find this thread quite interesting. I have only ever seen an e-collar used for recall or to deter barking. I never thought to try using an e-collar to deter my dog from eating poop. I have a massive poop eater on my hands and my husband and are are starting to get seriously grossed out. If it were only her own poop, it wouldnt be an issue as we pick it up, but it's other dogs poopsicles she's eating when we hike.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm sorry, but if he "knows the commands he just won't listen." then he doesn't know the commands. They either mean nothing because you keep saying them and he's choosing to blow you off, or he's distracted and you haven't proofed them with that level of distraction.
> 
> Back to basics. One room, alone with him. No distractions. Come, Name game, Sit, all with a food motivator. Slowly bring in the distractions.
> 
> :/


Some dogs aren't that simple ... I have two dogs that aren't motivated by food. What works with Josefina is taking away privileges, the Same technique works for Bear. Buddy is motivated by food. 

I have use an e collar on Bear before to train snake aversion ... But I only used the tone / vibe ones and not the ones that really shock. But I do know of those who use them on puppies :/ ESP hunters.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

luv mi pets said:


> I will say most dogs will learn when the collar is on and when it is not.


It's fairly easy to avoid the dog becoming "collar smart" if some basic cautions and procedures are followed. But yeah, if you just put it on when you need it and take it off afterwards, you will have a collar smart dog very quickly. IMO that's a training issue though, not a problem with the tool itself.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Josefina actually would probably be a good candidate for an e collar and I have even considered using one on Yumi (the vibe / tone only ones) to curb her problems with Josefina ... But ultimately I decided to simply separate them when I can't watch them.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> It's fairly easy to avoid the dog becoming "collar smart" if some basic cautions and procedures are followed. But yeah, if you just put it on when you need it and take it off afterwards, you will have a collar smart dog very quickly. IMO that's a training issue though, not a problem with the tool itself.


It is the weight of the collar that makes them know when they have the collar on and when they don't. This is one of the reasons they have the 'dummy' collars. Plus I am sure when they feel the prong on there neck they know when they have the collar on and when they do not.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

So the puppy found his new home today, like he was supposed to all along . I have been working on the basics with Royce daily. Things he already knows but now we are working on him focusing on the command instead of blowing them off, trying to find motivation for the command but not to much motivation. 

Like someone else already said, but yes Royce DOES know the commands, he just isn't motivated to do them and gets distracted easily. 

Just since this morning since the puppy left, Royce has chilled out a ton and the biggest thing we have been doing is working on sit stay and down stay, really making him focus on me while he is doing it. You can see how hard it is. His whole body starts shaking....should I be concerned about that? Or is just really hard for him? lol. 

Thank you everyone for the advice. Royces birthday is the 17th and its payday so were going to PetCo and going to look for some kind of flirt pole and maybe a puzzle toy as well that I can feed him exclusively through, make him work for it everytime.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

luv mi pets said:


> It is the weight of the collar that makes them know when they have the collar on and when they don't. This is one of the reasons they have the 'dummy' collars. Plus I am sure when they feel the prong on there neck they know when they have the collar on and when they do not.


I agree. That still doesn't mean you can't prevent the dog from becoming collar smart.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Sorry, I am having a hard time making myself clear. The dog is certainly aware of how the ecollar feels but with careful planning and thoughtful use, they don't have to know the stim only comes when the collar is on. There are certain protocols you can follow, like putting the collar on for 24-48 hours before ever giving stim, and rotating it, fussing with it, taking it off and on, all the help the dog think of the collar as a non-event. Then they need to wear it frequently and not give the commands you are paring with the stim unless you can use the collar. It takes some dedication to follow but IME it does work, and the collar can be faded out.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Sorry, I am having a hard time making myself clear. The dog is certainly aware of how the ecollar feels but with careful planning and thoughtful use, they don't have to know the stim only comes when the collar is on. There are certain protocols you can follow, like putting the collar on for 24-48 hours before ever giving stim, and rotating it, fussing with it, taking it off and on, all the help the dog think of the collar as a non-event. Then they need to wear it frequently and not give the commands you are paring with the stim unless you can use the collar. It takes some dedication to follow but IME it does work, and the collar can be faded out.


Wow that's a smart idea! If I ever have to use an e collar in the future I will use this method knowingly!

But I think I unintentionally did that with bear because I put it on him the night before and didn't use it til the following day with a dead snake I had shot the head off early that morning (it was a rattlesnake) so I placed it on the drive and let the dogs out. The other dogs are snake proof on their own, he was the only one that wouldn't learn (he has been bitten 4 times! Vet said the next time could be his last, because of his age) and the first time he went up to it, I gave him a low vibe. When he tried it again I gave him the highest vibe I could, I did it without looking at him of facing him (lol I was tugging with. Josefina at the time). It didn't take him long to learn.


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## Losech (Apr 5, 2011)

sclevenger said:


> Royces birthday is the 17th and its payday so were going to PetCo and going to look for some kind of flirt pole and maybe a puzzle toy as well that I can feed him exclusively through, make him work for it everytime.


Get a lunge whip at a feedstore (if you have one nearby) and attach a lure to it. They are pretty cheap and work really well as a flirt pole.
I went all hillbilly with mine though, it's just a big stick with some paracord and a **** skin tied to it.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Emily1188 said:


> I agree. That still doesn't mean you can't prevent the dog from becoming collar smart.


I do agree. I find the big thing is to use it as a training tool, not as an outright punishment method. Once the dog learns the command, really learns it so it is practically a reflex or a full scale habit to come running for you when they hear the word "come", or sit instantly when you give the command, at that point, training is truly effective and the collar, or their awareness of it, becomes irrelevant (although IMO, it doesn't hurt to leave it on for some situations...were you able to perfectly train and proof for that particular squirrel that is running into traffic?). Just like with training with food....eventually you shouldn't have to have a treat in your hand to make your dog do the command....you shouldn't have your finger on that stim/beep/vibrate button either. 

sclevenger....good to have an update! Sounds like things are going to calm down for you a bit and you're making some great headway on the obedience front!!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sclevenger said:


> So the puppy found his new home today, like he was supposed to all along . I have been working on the basics with Royce daily. Things he already knows but now we are working on him focusing on the command instead of blowing them off, trying to find motivation for the command but not to much motivation.
> 
> Like someone else already said, but yes Royce DOES know the commands, he just isn't motivated to do them and gets distracted easily.
> 
> ...


My dogs have a flirt pole and they love it! more so then puzzle toys, which, coincidently, they tried their hands at for a bit before getting frustrated and bringing it to me and looking at me like "I don't like this thing, mom. I think its broken!" LOL I laughed a lot at that.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> My dogs have a flirt pole and they love it! more so then puzzle toys, which, coincidently, they tried their hands at for a bit before getting frustrated and bringing it to me and looking at me like "I don't like this thing, mom. I think its broken!" LOL I laughed a lot at that.


Haha, thats what im afraid of. Though I like to believe Royce is extremely intelligent and Im just not giving him the proper motivation, there are most days that I have to admit that though Royce isn't dumb he is most definitely not the brightest bulb in the box :-(


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