# I need to know if my dog died from a snake bite or heart failure



## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

It's been 3 months since my golden retriever and best friend Kirk passed away unexpectedly and the last 3 months have been the worst of my life and I really need to know exactly what happened that day.

I was taking him for a walk by the river like we did most days except this day was extremely hot. Our walk usually lasts about 50 mins but this day it took almost 1 hr and 30 mins to complete. I had him off the leash and he kept walking towards shady areas to get out of the sun and rest. About 15 minutes into our walk he ran through some long grass to get to some shade. I thought nothing of it at the time so we continued walking and he continued to look for shaded areas to sit and rest. I kept walking in the hope that he would follow me and he did but only when I got far enough away that he thought I would leave him behind. He is normally not like this but I put it down to the extremely hot weather. Towards the end of our walk he began acting very strangely and started walking off path and towards the banks of the river where I could not see him. At the end of our walk there is a big hill we climb and he slowly made it to the top but once he reached the top his front legs trembled then gave way. I picked him up and instantly noticed his neck was limp and rushed him home thinking he was dehydrated. I got him home and by this time his whole body was limp and was not interested in drinking. He was breathing rapidly and his tongue was lolling. I called the vet and she said it sounded like he was bitten by a snake. I drove him to the vet and on the way his breathing slowed tremendously and about 20 mins later he began convulsing and that's when I think I lost him.

The vet explained that she thought it was a snake bite from a brown or tiger snake but couldn't find a wound on his body but said this was common.

I have been reading a lot of articles about snake bites and the symptoms do fit but I came accross an article about congestive heart failure today which concerned me.

My dog was overweight which would have placed him in the high risk category and I did notice that lately he was panting very heavilly after our walks for as long as 1 hr afterwards. At the time I was certain this was normal and because he was unfit and overweight, but I am not sure now. He did seem depressed at times but he was like that since he was a puppy. He rarely coughed or had any trouble breathing except after long and physically exerting exercise.

Could he have collapsed from heart failure or am I reading too much into it?


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm sorry you lost your dog under such mysterious circumstances.

Either scenario is possible or he could have died from heat stroke or any number of other causes.

Sadly, without having had a necropsy; there's no way of knowing for sure what actually caused his death.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

i'm sorry for your loss but i don't think there's any way anyone on a forum can tell you what your dog died of. I would trust what the vet told you. If there were signs of anything else I'm sure she would have said so.


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## Sugar Daddy Otis (Jan 9, 2008)

I agree with the above posts- unfortunately there is no way to tell but from a necropsy. I am sorry for your loss- I know what it is like to lose a dog very suddenly-mine passed within 3 minutes of collapsing. it is a very hard thing to go through.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the quick replies, guys. I was just hoping somebody could give me the most likely cause or another perspective based on the symptoms he had. When I took him home that day I watered him down and even tried to lightly hose water in his mouth but he refused and bit the hose. 

His main symptoms were -

- possible confusion
- trembling in the front legs followed by collapse
- possible paralysis
- rapid breathing followed by slowed breathing
- convulsion


This is really eating me up inside so any thoughts or opinions are very much appreciated.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Sorry for your loss. As the others said unforunately without a necropsy there's know way to know for sure, and even if you had one done it doesn't always give you exact answers. And there's aboslutely no way a bunch of people on the internet can determine cause of death, all we can do is speculate.

I'm not familar with brown or tiger snakes, we have gardner and rattle snakes around here. Personaly however the snake theory seems a bit off to me. When you get bit by a snake hit hurts, esspecially if it's a snake reacting to a percived predator. 

From your scenario heat stroke was my first thought. The desire for shade, then need for water in a posible attempt to cool down, followed by colapse and eventual convulsions all fit with heat stroke. Heat stroke is a very serious risk and can take down a healthy dog in it's prime in a matter of minutes. The prior health issue of being overweight increases the risk of heat stroke. 

If it were heart failure I would think that the heart would just stop and would not lead to any eventual convulsions. You never mentioned how old your dog was or if there were any previous health problems noted besides being overweight. Knowing prior history may help narrow down possible causes, but again it will only be speculation and not an exact answer.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

animalcraker said:


> Sorry for your loss. As the others said unforunately without a necropsy there's know way to know for sure, and even if you had one done it doesn't always give you exact answers. And there's aboslutely no way a bunch of people on the internet can determine cause of death, all we can do is speculate.
> 
> I'm not familar with brown or tiger snakes, we have gardner and rattle snakes around here. Personaly however the snake theory seems a bit off to me. When you get bit by a snake hit hurts, esspecially if it's a snake reacting to a percived predator.
> 
> ...


Thanks, this is the kind of response I was after. Can anybody confirm that convulsions would not occur if it was heart failure?

Heat stroke is a possibility but I have taken him for walks in hot weather in the past and he never reacted like this. He had more rest on this walk than he had on any of our past walks. 

The area I was walking him in I have since found is a haven for snakes yet I have never seen one and was oblivious to it at the time. The snake theory fits but at no time during the walk was he limping or appear sore in any way.

He was almost 4 years old and had no previous health problems other than being a bit overweight and unfit.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

What you're really asking and want to know...was it your fault? We've all been there...the doubts...the what ifs...if only I'd done this or that....it hurts like hell and there will be future moments when your thoughts will turn to Kirk and the doubts will come back.
When I lost a 4 year old Sheltie I didn't think I could ever have another dog.
My wife insisted on looking at a puppy just 2 weeks later. I fell in love...only to lose him 2 years later. Double the doubts...haunted...scared....vowed to do 'everything right' the next time around. I wish I could tell you at this point.... that is all it takes...just making everything right but, I can't. It doesn't work that way.
For me, it was getting a new puppy.....falling in love again...getting hurt again. But, my 1st loss taught me something very important and I owe it to that dog...keep the love going...meet that new pup...show him the ropes...play...have fun...take naps together and with luck, we'll have a wonderful, long life together...it's the best we can hope for...to keep the love going.


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## fuzzie (Jul 6, 2007)

A dog I knew died of heart failure and went down without fuss or cunvulsions. collapsed on a walk and, after being carried home, died before getting up again. I don't know if this is typical or what, just a semi-personnal experience.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

The convulsions didn't last for long, maybe 10 seconds, wasn't very intense and was approx 30-40 mins after he collapsed.

And thanks TooneyDogs, you are right but I can't help it. I have to know the cause to make sure it doesn't ever happen again.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Being that he was only 4 that lessens the chance of it being heart failure. I work in a vet office and have seen 1 cat, with my own eyes, die from heart failure; and I've been present for necrospys on 2 other cats that passed from heart failure. The cat presented to us with difficulty breathing, vet determined it to be heart failure and while she was talking with the owner the cat just passed. And the owners of the other 2 cats both said the pet was fine when they saw it before and when they saw it next it already passed away. However I've never experienced heart failure with a dog.

I've seen heat stroke happen 3 times in dogs. The first 2 times the dogs were too far gone to save them, despite every effort made. The third time we were able to stabilize the pet, but the pet was showing nerological signs which was evidence that brain damage had occured and the owner opted for us to stop treatment and euthanize the pet. When heat stroke occurs that body heats up and literaly "frys" the brain so to speak, which would make sense for a convulsion to occur. 

It's just about imposible for us to compared that day to all the other days you've gone for walks. And we would have to do far too much speculating for us to come up with a posible reason why. 

If it helps just be aware that you are not the only person who's lost a pet from snake bite, heart failure, or heat stroke an you're most certainly not the only one who's lost a pet unexpectedly. It's never easy to lose a pet and it's even harder when you never saw it coming. I've been present for a countless amount of euthanasias, but it's always the sudden losses that really get to me.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

animalcraker said:


> Being that he was only 4 that lessens the chance of it being heart failure. I work in a vet office and have seen 1 cat, with my own eyes, die from heart failure; and I've been present for necrospys on 2 other cats that passed from heart failure. The cat presented to us with difficulty breathing, vet determined it to be heart failure and while she was talking with the owner the cat just passed. And the owners of the other 2 cats both said the pet was fine when they saw it before and when they saw it next it already passed away. However I've never experienced heart failure with a dog.
> 
> I've seen heat stroke happen 3 times in dogs. The first 2 times the dogs were too far gone to save them, despite every effort made. The third time we were able to stabilize the pet, but the pet was showing nerological signs which was evidence that brain damage had occured and the owner opted for us to stop treatment and euthanize the pet. When heat stroke occurs that body heats up and literaly "frys" the brain so to speak, which would make sense for a convulsion to occur.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I just feel bad that it could have been prevented, especially if it was heat-stroke.

Would heat-stroke have caused his body to go limp in the way it did?

He still seemed mentally alert even after he collapsed as if his nervous system was attacked in some way. 

I would have ruled out a snake bite if it wasn't for the vet mentioning it and then remembering him running through the long grass and areas along the river bank.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm very sorry for your loss, I know how painfully hard it is. 

No one can give you a certain answer. You should have tried to find out more at the time of death. 

The snake theory could possibly be correct but seems odd. The dog didn't react when bitten and didn't have a wound. 

Tiger snakes have neurotoxins along with hemo and myotoxins. So it would be a very devastating bite for your dog. The only thing I find odd is how your dog didn't seem to react if bitten and continued on the walk for so long. If bitten by the snake (especially a tiger or brown) he should have collapsed and been unable to move sometime before you reached the hill. He shouldn't have been able to continue once he was bit and the venom started to work. You should have had to carry him away far sooner then you did. 

There are several types of brown snakes, the most deadliest being the Eastern or Common Brown Snake. The venom is very similar to that of a Tiger Snake I believe so again I'm surprised your dog wouldn't have went down quicker if bitten by a snake and then no wound was found. 

I know several dogs bitten by snakes (including one of my own) and I'm just not so sure about it. Most of the ones I know were bitten by Western Diamondback while they are not near as deadly as many of the snakes you have over there they are deadly enough and have very bad hemo/myotoxin along with neurotoxin and a bite isn't at all hard to find. A wound even a small one with only a single fang mark should have been found. I don't want to discredit your vet but I always like a thorough vet with a certain answer. I had a dog die and I still never know what the cause was because the vet didn't want to do her job. It is still something I think about even though I'll never have a real answer. What she purposed does not even fit with the symptoms. Then she made no effort to find the real answers. 

I've never heard of convulsions with heart failure but I'm no expert. I know a dog which died of heart failure, she was fine and then she went down and passed on, the vet found the cause of her death as it was mysterious to the owners. Alive and well one minute and dead the next. Changed quickly just within minutes. I will say that this dog wasn't old, I think she was around 2yrs or so. So its not impossible for a younger dog. 

It sounds to me like heat stroke, although you said you always walked this same way even in the heat something could be different that day. The dog just couldn't cool down as well. Being over weight wouldn't help. Maybe didn't drink as much water as normal prior. There are so many factors that can change. This seems more likely, I've seen this very same thing. I've known a few dogs which died of heat stroke and I can't really say it was something out of the ordinary. As far as length of time in the heat, high temperament, ect. It was just a usual day for the dog. That is what is scary you have to watch your dogs so close because they can begin to heat up and if you don't get them cooled down they can die quickly or reach the point where you can't bring them back (and lead to death) unexpectedly and again quicker then you think. This can cause collapse and also convulsions.


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

From the symptoms and the behavior prior to his collapse, I'd guess it was heatstroke, aggravated by his being overweight and out of shape. 

I don't know anything about brown snakes or tiger snakes, but I've known of several dogs that were bitten by rattlesnakes. 

It's almost impossible for a rattlesnake to bite a running dog. The same would probably apply to any snake. The snakes are fast, but not that fast! In every case of rattlesnake bite, the dog was either standing still or harrassing the snake. Rattlesnakes have fangs so the bite marks were clearly evident.

Perhaps you can find a website listing the symptoms of bites by brown or tiger snakes that will answer some of your questions and ease your mind on that score.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Michael105 said:


> Thanks, I just feel bad that it could have been prevented, especially if it was heat-stroke.
> 
> Would heat-stroke have caused his body to go limp in the way it did?
> 
> ...


It could cause that, the limpness of the body. Their nervous system is being damaged due to being overheated. It could also explain the confusion as that is another earlier sign. They can be lost and confused. As well as the heavy panting. Panting more then normal and going to the shade. It can also cause trembling as with his legs before he collapsed.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

When I took him to the vet they examined him for about 30 seconds and couldn't find anything but told me that my version of what happened and the symptoms were typical of a tiger or brown snake bite but that they couldn't be 100% sure unless a procedure was done. She also said that it can be very difficult to find marks on dogs with longer coats and even on dogs with shorter coats they are sometimes not visible. And that with most snake bites there is a 12 hour period on which to act but with a tiger or brown snake it is cut down to around 4. And less if your dog is not in ideal shape.

The only other thing I can think of is he was bitten just before the hill which is when he went out towards the river bank. He was running normally to catch up with me just a few minutes before then and collapsed just a few minutes later.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

I'm very sorry for your loss but instead of spending your time feeling guilty (a natural part of the grieving process but of no positive use) why not spend it turning this sad occasion into something good by taking some positive actions?

You can make up a memory book of your time with your dog.
You can use what happened to educate other people about the dangers of both snakes and exercising during extreme heat, especially with a dog not in top condition. I'm sure there are other things that you can do so that your beloved dog's death can help others to not have this happen to them.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

skelaki said:


> You can use what happened to educate other people about the dangers of both snakes and exercising during extreme heat, especially with a dog not in top condition. I'm sure there are other things that you can do so that your beloved dog's death can help others to not have this happen to them.


How would I go about doing such things?

One final question. Assuming it was heat-stroke can anything be done once the dog is in the stage where he is breathing rapidly, unable to move & refusing water?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Michael105 said:


> How would I go about doing such things?
> 
> One final question. Assuming it was heat-stroke can anything be done once the dog is in the stage where he is breathing rapidly, unable to move & refusing water?


It is hard to say. The likelihood of saving the dog is very much decreased passed a certain point when organ/brain damage is occurring. You can certainly try. I would give lactated ringers, an enema and put the feet in cool water and sponge cool water over him/her. I would then be rushing my dog to the vet they could access the damages (if the dog survives) and let me know what the diagnosis is going to be.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Michael105 said:


> Could he have collapsed from heart failure or am I reading too much into it?


I am so sorry you lost him...

It sounds more like he may have been struggling with heat exhaustion (which is why he didn't want to keep up), which then lead to heat stroke (when he collapsed)... Did the vet ever take a temp? I know he may have already been gone when you got there, but his temp would still have been very elevated if it was heat stroke. Of course, without that necropsy you will never 'for sure' know, though...but heat related is what I am guessing.



Michael105 said:


> How would I go about doing such things?
> 
> One final question. Assuming it was heat-stroke can anything be done once the dog is in the stage where he is breathing rapidly, unable to move & refusing water?



Yes, by getting him out of the heat, into cool (not cold water), and getting him to the vet asap, you can pull a dog through heat related issues; timing is critical though. Once they collapse and actually stop breathing, brain damage ensues within minutes.


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

A long time ago (in the 70's) an article was written in the German Shorthaired Pointer news about a dog that collapsed from heat stroke at a Field Trial.

They worked feverishly over the dog, wetting him down and using all the recommended methods but he didn't respond. Another handler came to their assistance and shoved some ice cubes up the dog's rectum in hopes of faciliatating internal cooling.

The dog survived with no ill effects other than losing a large strip of hair all the way down his back.

The vet that checked the dog afterwards was surprised at the method of treatment and the results. But he agreed; at that point there was nothing to lose by trying it since the dog was near death.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I too think it could have been heat stroke. 

The way to fix this is, of course, avoidance by not allowing the dog to be overweight and to only exercise in the cool of the morning or even at night. 

Dogs cool themselve by panting. This system work amazingly well except in hot HUMID weather. The thing that cools the dog is evaporation and ventilation. Dogs can't sweat (which I am sure you know) so if panting does not cool them, thne nothing will. Not knowing the day this happened, I can only ask you to imagine having a think wool sweater and thick wool pants on and imagine how quickly you would heat up. 

If you dog has heat stroke, getting to the vet is paramoutn. COOLING the dog is also a priority. Immersing the dog in cool (not cold) water and pressing ice packs on the neck and in the groin can bring the temperature down. 

You still need to get to the vet to administer IV fluids, continue bringing the temperature down and to administer any drugs the vet may determine are needed to try to prevent brain swelling. 

Honestly, you can spend your life beating yourself up.. and I know this because I have (over different animals). OR you can move forward. If this goes on too long, I suggest you talk to a grief counselor. Attachments to pets can be very strong. 

Build a scrap book around your old friend and write down what you are feeling in a journal. Grief is not easy. 

I also suggest you consider getting another dog. This is not a replacement for the dog that passed. This is a new dog.. a different dog.. and a new friend. 
Just feed him less and exercise him more.. and take understandng and learning from all of this. Your old friend would not want you to worry so.


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

Michael105 said:


> How would I go about doing such things?


You are right now 

I made a topic just the other day,complaining about my pups absolute intolerance to the heat. I didn't get any replies mind you, so I thought nothing of it and assumed my dog would just have to toughen up. I never realized how serious a heat stroke can be until reading of your beloved Kirk. 

I'm so very sorry for your loss and pain. I know the idea of a new puppy may pain your heart, but it really might be the best thing to help with your healing process.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

applesmom said:


> A long time ago (in the 70's) an article was written in the German Shorthaired Pointer news about a dog that collapsed from heat stroke at a Field Trial.
> 
> They worked feverishly over the dog, wetting him down and using all the recommended methods but he didn't respond. Another handler came to their assistance and shoved some ice cubes up the dog's rectum in hopes of faciliatating internal cooling.
> 
> ...


That is an interesting and good article which shows that a dog can come back. A cold water enema would be similar to the ice cubs and one thing that can save the dogs life for sure. It helps cool the body from the inside. Starting the iv and using cool water on the outside along with this is still beneficial. 

OP I have to agree with Roscosmom in that you are helping even on this forum. Many people don't realize how quickly and easily a dog of seemingly normal health can succumb to heat stroke. It is an eye opener for many.


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## sheplovr (Aug 27, 2006)

I have been to horse shows with jumpers taking the heat badly being over worked. Sweating excessively and being walked so not to go down and twist a gut and die but only to hear next day at say 3 a.m it dropped dead.

Heat kills more animals and the heart does stop, so if you call it a heat stroke or from heart it seems all the same. On a death certificate I knew my father had cancer but they put down heat failure due to death.

I am very sorry for your lose regardless, it is a lonely road to hoe when we loose a best friend, been there done that. I hope you mend your broken heart and find another one day to help you love again.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

Love's_Sophie said:


> I am so sorry you lost him...
> 
> It sounds more like he may have been struggling with heat exhaustion (which is why he didn't want to keep up), which then lead to heat stroke (when he collapsed)... Did the vet ever take a temp? I know he may have already been gone when you got there, but his temp would still have been very elevated if it was heat stroke. Of course, without that necropsy you will never 'for sure' know, though...but heat related is what I am guessing.
> 
> ...



I dont think the vet took his temp because they were done examining him very quickly, though I could be wrong because I was not thinking very clearly at the time. I am pretty sure she didn't even mention the possibility of heat-stroke though. 

The thing is he was not unconscious when he collapsed just limp and he never vomited which are 2 of the main signs of heat-stroke.



Roscosmom said:


> You are right now
> 
> I made a topic just the other day,complaining about my pups absolute intolerance to the heat. I didn't get any replies mind you, so I thought nothing of it and assumed my dog would just have to toughen up. I never realized how serious a heat stroke can be until reading of your beloved Kirk.
> 
> I'm so very sorry for your loss and pain. I know the idea of a new puppy may pain your heart, but it really might be the best thing to help with your healing process.


If it indeed was heat-stroke, it is EXTREMELY serious and you should do everything you can to keep them out of the sun for any extended period on a hot day. Seriously, my dog seemed perfectly fine and then just a few minutes later he collapsed completely unexpectedly. It is a very fine line that I will not even attempt to cross again. PLEASE LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE.

I have just been looking at the Australian Bureau of Meterology website to find out the weather on that day.

Feb.16 Sat 
Min.16.3 
Max. 28.0 (83F)
Rain 0 
Wind 35 km/h
9am Temp - 16.3 (61F)
3pm - Temp - 26.6 (79)
Relative Humidity (9am) - 81%
Relative Humidity (3pm) - 43%

Strangely, it was not as hot as I remembered. It occured at 1pm when the temperature would have been close to it's max but I have taken him for walks in temperatures over 30 degrees and he has been fine. This is puzzling.


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## whimsy (Aug 19, 2007)

From everything you've said I would say it points to heat stroke. If he had no heart problems before this you can rule that out. As for the snake bit, I think your vet was way off, plus a blood test would have told her for certain. A few minutes to examine a dog in this condition isn't enough to tell a vet anything.
Yes, animals and humans do have convulsions from heatstroke. If your dog was looking for shade it is obvious that he was overwhelmed by the heat and possibly high humidity. And putting ice cubes in a dog's rectum is one of the best known cures for cooling them down and helping them survive.
I never bring my dogs for a walk in real hot weather, I take them for a swim.
I think you already knew the answer and sought reassurance that you were not to blame. NO, NO, it wasn't your fault. We, as humans make blunders with our animals lots of times. This doesn't mean we don't love them or try to hurt them. This was a tragic accident and nothing more. Please stop beating yourself up over this. 
Maybe you could get another pup in honor of your dog's memory. I'm sure that's what he would want. Good luck to you.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Vomiting and diarrhea can be signs of heat stroke but this doesn't always happen. Some dogs don't do either. They might just pant a lot, working up a foam, shake, then collapse. At least 2 dogs that I know of who died of heat stroke didn't vomit at all. The others I'm not sure about. Also one was in the shade with water too, but this was someone in the south with extremely humid temperatures making the heat index intolerable for the dog. I guess it was too hard for the dog to breath so good, which is how they cool themselves by panting, so that led to their heat stroke because they couldn't cool fast enough.

Who really knows if it was heat stroke or not. There could have been other underlying problems and maybe some type of organ failure (whether heart failure or something else). Could be something that he had for awhile without any symptoms. Without a real exam your vet would have no idea. A quick look won't tell them anything. Some dogs that die suddenly and undergo an exam show a disease that the owner/vet never knew about in the past because there were no symptoms that something was wrong. It could have even been a problem that caused heat intolerance leading to stroke or heart failure. 

Dogs can die of heat even if its not that hot and its something they always do. That is where it gets so hard. I got a little bit worried with mine today, now I'm kind of on edge since its turning to summer. A couple seemed to get hot quick even though it was only about 78 and they do fine other times when it is 90 something. I didn't want them to overheat and stopped the play. I think it just kind of depends on the dog from day to day. Mine at this time are also not acclimated to the heat yet. Which is hard, we get really cold days then really warm days so its no fun for either of us.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

My first dog used to run herself to near-heat-stroke when she was younger, We couldn't stop her. After a few real scares, we learned the early signs and would physically restrain her when she showed those early signs. What we would do then would be to take her (on leash or she'd just start running again  ) to the basement (cool cement floor), wet her ears, paws, and stomach/chest with cool water, give her an ice cube to lick, and we'd have to keep her down there for at least an hour. It got so that we couldn't even let her out to pee during the day in the summer, or she'd run like a crazy dog and get heat exhaustion again. She was a weird pup, and very hyper. Your dog's symptoms do sound very much like heat stroke. Willow never vomited or had diarrhea. The worst symptom she ever got was that she was disoriented and uncoordinated to the point of walking into walls. That's when we went to the vet and he told us how to recognize the earlier symptoms and what do do about them. I'm sorry for your loss, it's so hard when they're young and go so quickly.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

I am so so sorry for your lost. I wish I had words to make it better. 

This reminded me of the scare I had. Oh and the weather didn't seem all that high for you guys that day-79, although it can be really hot in the direct sun.
I am a complete idiot, I took my dog hiking when it was like almost 90degrees! I didn't know it was going to be that hot. I think he started to experience early signs of heat stroke. towards the end he was panting extra heavily and the skin on his head was staying up stiff when I pinched it. No one else of course thought anything(not their dog) but I was getting panicky inside. I left the area to take him under a tree and thank god I brought 2 gallons of water just for him. I drenched him in the water and kept giving him water to drink. After 15 min I checked his sking and it fell pretty fast and his panting slowed. It could have very easily turned for the worst. 
I saw a couple on t.v. who went hiking , they said one minute their dog was following them and the next he didn't want to walk anymore. By the time they got him to the vet he was gone. 

Again, I'm sorry and I hope you find peace with this loss.


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## rawkus (Jan 23, 2008)

Michael, Im sorry for your loss 

When I worked in OZ some 5 years ago(Cairns) the family I stayed with lost their staffy thanks to a snakebite(Common Death Adder)... At the time, I worked with snakes and reptiles... The dog, Hubert, died within 5 minutes after the bite.

We also had a heat incident outside the zoo where I worked at(Cairns Tropical Zoo) when a visitor left his lab-mix in the car, no water and right in the sun!! A friend called RSPCA and smashed the window to get the dog out. The owner wanted to press charges for the broken window, but since we filmed it all, it was evidence enough to make him accept a fine and drop his charges against us. The dog lived and he also accepted to put it up for adoption with the RSCPA.

People sometimes underestimate the heat that the sun produces, including myself...

Hope you will feel better soon mate.

Regards/Tony


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

Michael105 said:


> If it indeed was heat-stroke, it is EXTREMELY serious and you should do everything you can to keep them out of the sun for any extended period on a hot day. Seriously, my dog seemed perfectly fine and then just a few minutes later he collapsed completely unexpectedly. It is a very fine line that I will not even attempt to cross again. PLEASE LEARN FROM MY MISTAKE.
> 
> I have just been looking at the Australian Bureau of Meterology website to find out the weather on that day.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry, again. This is obviously tearing you up inside, I wish I could help or offer some words of great comfort. But there are none. Please know that my heart aches for your loss and torment though.

The day that I grew really concerned with my pups reaction to the heat was a day in the low 80's as well.( I live in Texas where we reach 100+ degrees daily in the summer so I will now take every precaution necessary as this is his first Summer and like I said- I never knew the risks. My other older dog handles the heat like a champ) We walked even less than usual that day and at times he acted like he just couldn't go on, seeking out shade and panting _heavily_. One poster above mentioned the humidity making it difficult to cool their bodies down via panting. It was very humid the day that I was overly concerned about Rosco..and reading your meteorology report from that day, it seems quite humid. Maybe that added to the factor.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the kind words. I guess I will never know for sure what happened that day but I do know that if I ever own another dog I will never again exercise him/her by a river on a hot day for an extended period and I will take more precautions to recognize warning signs and be more prepared in such circumstances. This alone may have saved his life. 

The best advice I can give is BE VERY CAREFUL when exercising your pets in even mildly warm weather. Keep a close eye on them and if they are looking for shade DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES FORCE THEM TO CONTINUE EXERCISING. IT MAY SEEM HARMLESS BUT IN A MATTER OF MINUTES CAN TURN DEADLY. I HAVE EXPERIENCED IT FIRST HAND AND IT WAS THE WORST EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. Listen to your pet because only they are aware of exactly how they are feeling and if this post can prevent this from happening to just 1 other dog it will be worth it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

FWIW the thing that gets you isn't relative humidity, but DEWPOINT. If the Dewpoint is over 60, then things are uncomfortable. Over 70 and you reallly cannot get rid of heat by evaporative cooling (panting or sweating). 

I think, Michael105, you are correct. You won't ever know exactly what caused your dog to die. I too am sorry for your loss. I also think you need to refocus yourself from the "if only I hads" to the day you are in and all of the tomorrows out there. 

I am sure you will miss your dog for awhile.. perhaps forever (I have had animals that I wil miss forever, but no longer with fresh sorrow) and, I also recommend you think about getting another dog soon if you enjoyed having a dog and can have a dog. 

As you have experienced, a dog can enrich yor life in ways that are truly a blessing.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I'm not sure if someone else mentioned this, but poisonous snakes can cause neurological dysfunction and things like rattlesnakes cause heart failure etc.

So, just as a though, if bitten by a snake, that could be the cause of signs of heart failure, since the poison affects all the major organs to shut them down (lungs, heart)...
If your vet thinks it was probably a snake bite, she/he is probably right.


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## Michael105 (Apr 15, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> FWIW the thing that gets you isn't relative humidity, but DEWPOINT. If the Dewpoint is over 60, then things are uncomfortable. Over 70 and you reallly cannot get rid of heat by evaporative cooling (panting or sweating).
> 
> I think, Michael105, you are correct. You won't ever know exactly what caused your dog to die. I too am sorry for your loss. I also think you need to refocus yourself from the "if only I hads" to the day you are in and all of the tomorrows out there.
> 
> ...



I wasn't able to find the Dew Point for that day but I have found a Dew Point Calculator and at 3pm the Dew Point would have been 13C/54.62FH.

Assuming the temperature was at it's maxiumum of 28C/83FH at 1pm and the relative humidity was 55% (9am - 81%, 3pm - 43%), the Dew Point would have been 18.2C/65.18FH.

It all depends on the relative humidity at 1pm which I cannot be exactly sure of because it was only calculated at 9am & 3pm and there was such a big drop in that time. So the dew point could have been as high as 76.56 or as low as 54.62.



ACampbell said:


> I'm not sure if someone else mentioned this, but poisonous snakes can cause neurological dysfunction and things like rattlesnakes cause heart failure etc.
> 
> So, just as a though, if bitten by a snake, that could be the cause of signs of heart failure, since the poison affects all the major organs to shut them down (lungs, heart)...
> If your vet thinks it was probably a snake bite, she/he is probably right.


Most definitely and I have not ruled out a snake bite. I think it is just as likely especially since he did run through some very long blades of grass and I was a bit oblivious to the dangers of it at the time.


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