# Help with growling when eating



## Annabel (Jan 15, 2009)

Greetings!

My name is Anne, and we are the proud parents of a 10 month old Lab (probably mix, we got her when she was 12 weeks old from the shelter) named Callie. She is a great dog - very smart, good with kids, etc.

She has always been very food motivated, and is somewhat of a frantic eater. (From what I've learned, that isn't abnormal for Labs) Lately, she has been growling when anyone touches her when she eats. She has not yet bitten anyone, but I'm getting concerned since we have a 6 year old at home, and we often have other little kids around. 

We used to feed her in the front mud room, and it's a place of pretty low traffic. We moved her food dish into the kitchen, so she gets more used to people being around when she's eating. We have also started the excruciating task of feeding her out of our hand for both of her meals. We have been doing it for about 2-3 weeks now, and the growling isn't getting any better. Here's the odd thing - she doesn't growl or even act irritated if we touch her food or treats...she will just sit there and let us. We can put our hands in her bowl when she's eating, and she's just fine! It's only if we touch her body that she starts growling and snarling at us. 

She is a very docile dog, and we have no other issues with her. I will admit, I'm not really a dog person, and I'm getting very worried that she is going to end up biting one of us, or worse a little kid because of this!

Thanks for any and all help you can provide!


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

You have two different issues here....the resource guarding whch you've been working on (good jobl by the way) and petting. You need to work on the body handling separately. The body handling usually starts in small steps....holding a paw, checking an ear flap, running a finger over the gums and progressing to full body 'exams'. Lots of praise and treats every step of the way until she has no qualms about being handled.


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## Annabel (Jan 15, 2009)

Thank you for the reply!

She absolutely NEVER growls at us when we touch her unless she has food near her. We can pick her up and carry her like a baby, roll her over and scratch her tummy, clip her claws, etc, and it doesn't bother her at all! Put her in front of her food, though, and a gentle pat on the head will make her snarl and growl. 

Would your suggestion be to place a gentle but firm hand on her the whole time she's eating, and then work our way up to petting while she's eating? 

This issue totally baffles me, because I have read pretty much everything I can get my hands on in regards to being food aggressive - this seems like such an odd issue, though, because she doesn't mind if we touch her food or take it away!

Thanks again for the help.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Then the resource guarding hasn't been resolved completely. Let's try a different variation and see if we can make some more progress: start doing object exchanges. Take a favorite toy/ball or frisbee and give it to her. If she already knows the Give or Drop it command that's great. Praise, treat and then give her the toy back. Praise again. If she doesn't know the Give or Drop command, use another toy....make it 'more desireable' by waving it, shaking it....make it exciting. She should drop the one she has and you immediately let her have yours. Again, praise, treat and then give her the toy back. You're teaching her that she will always get it back....no need to guard it or defend it. This will even work with food (they will spit it out on command) but, that's down the road with more training.


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## unclearthur (Dec 8, 2008)

Labs and food. I really regret not videotaping my dog eating when he was 8 weeks old. So tiny, but he'd attack the food like there was no tomorrow. People would be just astonished. 

Do you stop touching her when she growls? If you do, then you may be reinforcing to her that growling helps her keep her food. If you are going to back off then don't touch her in the first place.

I hope Tooneydogs suggestion works for you.

Personally, I can't accept my own dog growling or snapping at me (or a family member) for ANY reason - its the ultimate sin - and I'd be giving him the correction of his life if he did it. Our dog did it once to my daughter and he was immediately scruffed rolled glared and yelled at. He's never growled at any of us again. Dogs are animals and sometimes you need to be a bit primal, not too complicated. He is sending you a message : "leave me alone or I might bite you". Maybe you can teach him 'You don't have to defend your food, I'm not going to take it away'. I'd rather teach him: "I'll take you're food away whenever I feel like it" and "If you growl at me you are going to suffer a very uncomfortable consequence". My $0.02.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

unclearthur said:


> Labs and food. I really regret not videotaping my dog eating when he was 8 weeks old. So tiny, but he'd attack the food like there was no tomorrow. People would be just astonished.
> 
> Do you stop touching her when she growls? If you do, then you may be reinforcing to her that growling helps her keep her food. If you are going to back off then don't touch her in the first place.
> 
> ...


Or someday your dog may give you the biggest bite ever and he won't warn you first. You have won the battle but are you sure you won the war?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

unclearthur said:


> He is sending you a message : "leave me alone or I might bite you". Maybe you can teach him 'You don't have to defend your food, I'm not going to take it away'. I'd rather teach him: "I'll take you're food away whenever I feel like it" and "If you growl at me you are going to suffer a very uncomfortable consequence". My $0.02.


What exactly does violence or the threat of violence beget? Is this something we want in a dog? 

The dog is definitely saying _I'm warning, I may bite. _Understanding why does not lead to threats. Being "primal" when we want the dog to be "civil" is also not a deduction that would follow.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

You WILL reinforce the growling if you touch him, he growls and you quickly move away, though. You do NOT want to do that any more. 

For now, I'd supervise ALL his meals to be SURE no children are in the way no matter what. After all, this is a rescue, not a teensy puppy, so you have to be careful. Don't be worried or upset, just be there and keep the kids away until this issue is resolved. If you ARE worried or upset, he will sense that and that's NOT good. 

Try the above suggestions about resource guarding and keep working on it and he should come around. Since he's so easygoing about everything else, I'm sure this won't take long. 

It sounds like you're a bit afraid of him. If you are, you need to not be. He can sense that and will take advantage of it. Try to relax around him and work on the toy thing and let us know how it's going and we'll all try to help you get him to where you want him to be. Kudos to you for rescuing an animal in need


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## unclearthur (Dec 8, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> What exactly does violence or the threat of violence beget? Is this something we want in a dog?


Its already in every dog, its instinctual. 



> The dog is definitely saying _I'm warning, I may bite. _Understanding why does not lead to threats. Being "primal" when we want the dog to be "civil" is also not a deduction that would follow.


None of us are mindreaders but I think its easier for a dog to deduce 'I growled at him and I got a big correction I better not challenge him again he is my boss' then to deduce 'he keeps taking this toy and giving it back so maybe even if he takes my food he will it give back so maybe I can just trust him and respect him because he is such a great guy hmmmmm I think I'll never growl at him again for anything'.

Look I'm not slagging what was suggested by Tooney or anybody else's methods - go for it and if it works, great. But lets not pretend that there is something particularly novel or fundamentally illogical with what I suggested. I think people have to use what they feel comfortable and confident with and what works for them and their particular dog. The important thing is that they deal with it one way or another.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

Far as I'm concerned, you do that and you're going to get a huge bite and a nasty dog out of it. But that's just my opinion


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Here it is...my confession that I am a lazy dog trainer. I, too, will probably get a huge bite as a result of this method some day.

_If _this were my dog, _if _I could fiddle around with the food bowl while it was eating, _if _I could touch it everywhere and even perform a nail clipping when it wasn't eating, _if _it never showed any other indications of resource guarding or fear or aggression...

...I would simply stop trying to touch it while it was eating.

I would put the dog in a room with a door I could close and I would tell my kids not to open the door. When the dog was done, I would open the door.

I don't want to be pet during my dinner, either. In my head it makes sense that my dog should be allowed some personal space while eating without me getting all worked up about it.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> Here it is...my confession that I am a lazy dog trainer. I, too, will probably get a huge bite as a result of this method some day.
> 
> _If _this were my dog, _if _I could fiddle around with the food bowl while it was eating, _if _I could touch it everywhere and even perform a nail clipping when it wasn't eating, _if _it never showed any other indications of resource guarding or fear or aggression...
> 
> ...


That's probably what I would do, too, but that doesn't fix it LOL


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

unclearthur said:


> Its already in every dog, its instinctual.


Yes, fight and flight are instinctual. But you didn't answer my question. If threats beget fight and/or flight, why would you want to induce this, at all? 



> None of us are mindreaders but I think its easier for a dog to deduce 'I growled at him and I got a big correction I better not challenge him again he is my boss' then to deduce 'he keeps taking this toy and giving it back so maybe even if he takes my food he will it give back so maybe I can just trust him and respect him because he is such a great guy hmmmmm I think I'll never growl at him again for anything'.


You growled at him for instinct. That would be like punching someone for breathing, or thinking. Unless you plan on punching this person to death, he will not stop breathing or thinking. Nevermore, a dog should not be taught the limits of his growl. A growl is the last warning before a bite, and if your dog did not growl before he bit your child, what time-defense are you allowing your child in response? The OP should thank their dog he gave them a warning, that something is amiss or not understood. 



> But lets not pretend that there is something particularly novel or fundamentally illogical with what I suggested.


Believe me, I'm not pretending, your approach *IS* fundamentally illogical. And every expert I know would agree. This is not an and/or proposition. You must always address the dog's emotional needs before modifying behavior. Your approach doesn't modify behavior...it only suppresses it. You can not teach your dog not to growl around food unless you've taught him you are not a source of conflict. Unless you've taught the dog that you are the source of everything good in his life. You may continue to disagree...I'll just continue to point out where you are wrong.


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## unclearthur (Dec 8, 2008)

> The OP should thank their dog he gave them a warning, that something is amiss or not understood.


Yes thank you Fido for growling at me. LOL.



> You must always address the dog's emotional needs before modifying behavior.


His emotional needs? LOL. Fido, tell me about your childhood .....



> Believe me, I'm not pretending, your approach IS fundamentally illogical. And every expert I know would agree.


There are countless training books out there that would tell you to physically confront your pup if he growls at you, but I guess you are the arbitrator of who is a true expert or not.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

unclearthur said:


> Yes thank you Fido for growling at me. LOL.


I'm not surprised you would find this a laughing matter. I'm not surprised you want to continue demonstrating your ilk. 



> His emotional needs? LOL. Fido, tell me about your childhood .....


I'm not surprised you would continue to be anthropomorphic. I'm surprised you have not experienced the wide range of emotions from your dog. Tell us the truth...you meant to sign up for a cat forum, didn't you?  



> There are countless training books out there that would tell you to physically confront your pup if he growls at you, but I guess you are the arbitrator of who is a true expert or not.


You read books? Tell us ol' literate one, what books do you speak of? I like books written on paper, not stone. I like books that are written by those who are not interested in the reification of ideas that are coined as "theory" when they are in fact a "hypothesis." And yes I am an arbitrator as well as an advocate for what we want to celebrate here...dogs. What you're an advocate for...


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> You read books? Tell us ol' literate one, what books do you speak of? I like books written on paper, not stone. I like books that are written by those who are not interested in the reification of ideas that are coined as "theory" when they are in fact a "hypothesis." And yes I am an arbitrator as well as an advocate for what we want to celebrate here...dogs. What you're an advocate for...


Wonderful response, CP. Couldn't agree with you more


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## baird (Jan 9, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> ...I would simply stop trying to touch it while it was eating.
> 
> I would put the dog in a room with a door I could close and I would tell my kids not to open the door. When the dog was done, I would open the door.
> 
> ...


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

I would not continue "petting" the dog while she eats. IME this only makes matters worse. I've seen people cause resource guarding by constantly harrassing their dog while it eats, etc. 

The dog sounds like a wonderful dog with everything else. She even lets you put your hands in the bowl while she eats, right? Then I would just leave her alone while she eats. I've seen more dogs ruined by well meaning people who keep harrassing the dog while it eats. Think about it - you are at a restaurant and the waiter brings you your food, you dig in and all of a sudden the waiter is petting you. Annoying, right? Well it is for the dog too.

As long as the dog is otherwise very well behaved and soft (which it sounds like she is), sits and waits for her food, and even allows you to put your hand in the bowl, then I'd just let her eat in peace.

IMO, kids should learn not to approach ANY dog when they are eating anyway. What if your kid goes over to a friends house and they have a dog that is eating and they go up and touch the dog (after all, they've seen you doing it with your dog) and they get bit. 

The best way to protect children is to make sure they understand how to handle animals and what the rules are when approaching ANY dog, not just your dog. And IMO, it is safest to teach children to not approach a dog that is eating.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

unclearthur said:


> Yes thank you Fido for growling at me. LOL.
> 
> 
> His emotional needs? LOL. Fido, tell me about your childhood .....
> ...


In the 1800's they used to cut open dogs without anesthesia. All the text books said dogs don't feel pain the way humans do and they're not really in any pain. 
There are training books that say to hang the dog if he tries to bite....cut off his air for a minute....really show him who's boss. A method (sadly) that is still practiced today in some police dog trainings.
In 2005 scientists discovered that dogs can fast map. All the books said/say this is not possible....this is supposed to be a uniquely human trait. Scientists are now scrambling to see if other animals have this ability.
So now we think we have two abilities that only dogs and humans share... no other animals on earth have yet displayed these.....but, then again, maybe we aren't looking at things very clearly.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

I saw a lot of bickering above and stopped reading, so I apologize if this has been said, but I thought I'd share my approach.

Hand feed her. Every bit of food she gets comes from your hands. This should desensitize her safely and get her used to the concept that you control such a valued resource. 

Without any conflict, after a week of this, I'd try tou keep a hand on her while feeding her from your other hand. 

I honestly think you can tackle this safely without ever getting a single growl; just needs a totally new approach.


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## DreamN (Nov 28, 2008)

^ That is exactly what I did with my pup as per my friend's advice when my pup was growling at me while just being near him. Did it for 1 week or so and petted him once in awhile. 2nd week I placed the food in the bowl and stayed close and every few seconds I'd touch the bowl with light petting sometimes. By the third week I could pet him, touch the bowl, walk around him, and have others around him as well with no worries. He's perfect with me or any other person around his bowl now. He knows that no one is going to take his bowl until he's done and afterwards he'll even get a toy to play/chew on.

He used to lunge at me when I had his food ready. Now it's a complete 180. Sure he gets hyper when he knows he'll be fed, but I just give him the commands "sit" and "stay". Once I place the bowl in his normal feeding area I give him the command "come" and leave him be till he's done. Anyone can walk by his bowl and touch it or him with no growling.


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