# Aversive training.



## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Who uses it? 

not here to start stuff, just here to chatter about training c:


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Really? You want to go down this rabbit hole? OK - Here is my response:

Does anything aversive in life ever happen to my dogs that 'trains' them? Yeah, probably.

Do I purposely ever set up a training plan to include pain, fear, intimidation or other tactics that will shut down & suppress my dogs' (or any that I'm working with) natural behaviors? Never.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I was trying to ask if anybody else used it, and to connect with them.

But thank you for your responce.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

You want to chatter about training? Ok.

You haven't said whether you use aversives or not, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that. Can you give me a more specific example of how / when / why you use them? and maybe we'll go from there. 

Just a word of caution.... don't expect agreement.


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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)




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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)

OK, I'll post properly.

First of all, I will say I never have, and never would use a prong, choke or e-collar. I'm appalled they're still legal in the UK and other countries.

I used to be a fully paid up member of the CM tribe. We had to be dominant over our dogs, or they'd try to dominate us. 

That went flying out of the window when my first dog bit me. Luckily for me, he had great bite inhibition, but it shocked me into realising there had to be another, better way.

Fast forward to Dog 3.

Now I have a chihuahua who chose _me_. Previous owners said she'd growled or snapped at anyone else who was interested in her. Given what I now know about her, I believe them. 

With me, she was completely different. Within minutes of meeting her, she was lying beside me on the chair, taking treats from my hand. It would therefore have been a huggggggggge betrayal of her trust to then use avervise training on her. She's so sensitive and easily spooked anyway that putting a simple, flat collar and leash on her is enough to cause her to shut down -, never mind a prong, or e-collar or kicking, poking or yelling at her. 

Now, apart from her sensitivities, she's the happiest dog I've had. I love her happy dance, her helicopter tail wag, and the joy her face as she runs back to me for a treat. Most of the time, she's at heal, engaging with me. I wouldn't have had that with her if I used dominance theory and aversive training.

Nor would she have learned that I have her back and will listen to her if she feels out of her depth. She doesn't usually like to be carried because, bless her, she was carried everywhere for the first five years of her life so I feel honoured that she'll jump up on my leg, asking me to pick her up when a dog is a bit too big and bouncy for her. 

Dominance theory is so pervasive, IMHO, not because it works. But because it speaks to the human ego.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Kind of depends on how you want to define aversives? By the strict definition, I do do things in training that would fall under the 'aversive' category. I stop when a dog surges ahead on leash, allowing them to hit the end of the lead (technically P+). I apply body pressure (no contact, just getting into the dog's space) when I need them to move out of the way or return to their station when they've broken a stay, and release the pressure as soon as the dog goes where I want (technically R-). I ignore a dog who is barking for attention (P-), then keep ignoring until they're quiet and possibly sitting (R-). 

Ftr, these are just highlighting little parts of a technique or training process, not saying that using any of the above as written are a complete 'how to' of how to effectively train each given circumstance. I don't even use all these techniques for every dog and every situation, and often am also using other techniques to work on producing the desired behavior simultaneously, but I just selected a few things I use that are broadly considered acceptable within the positive reinforcement, force free, LIMA, etc. wheelhouses. This is, by the way, why I hate talking about quadrants in practical training settings, because it gets really confusing and freaks people who are new to this type of training out because "P+ bad R+" good is waaaay too oversimplified for real life situations.

Anyway, a lot of techniques, even those used by force free/positive reinforcement/etc. focused trainers, are going to have aversive elements when you really break them down; it's enormously difficult to avoid entirely. So just to clarify, I'm assuming you are asking about aversive training that uses handler-initiated physical corrections, and uses it as a primary, deliberate training technique, rather than as a side effect/moving part in a technique. Is that correct?


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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)

DaySleepers said:


> Kind of depends on how you want to define aversives? By the strict definition, I do do things in training that would fall under the 'aversive' category. I stop when a dog surges ahead on leash, allowing them to hit the end of the lead (technically P+). I apply body pressure (no contact, just getting into the dog's space) when I need them to move out of the way or return to their station when they've broken a stay, and release the pressure as soon as the dog goes where I want (technically R-). I ignore a dog who is barking for attention (P-), then keep ignoring until they're quiet and possibly sitting (R-).
> 
> Ftr, these are just highlighting little parts of a technique or training process, not saying that using any of the above as written are a complete 'how to' of how to effectively train each given circumstance. I don't even use all these techniques for every dog and every situation, and often am also using other techniques to work on producing the desired behavior simultaneously, but I just selected a few things I use that are broadly considered acceptable within the positive reinforcement, force free, LIMA, etc. wheelhouses. This is, by the way, why I hate talking about quadrants in practical training settings, because it gets really confusing and freaks people who are new to this type of training out because "P+ bad R+" good is waaaay too oversimplified for real life situations.
> 
> Anyway, a lot of techniques, even those used by force free/positive reinforcement/etc. focused trainers, are going to have aversive elements when you really break them down; it's enormously difficult to avoid entirely. So just to clarify, I'm assuming you are asking about aversive training that uses handler-initiated physical corrections, and uses it as a primary, deliberate training technique, rather than as a side effect/moving part in a technique. Is that correct?


Good point. What we may not consider aversive, the dog might.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Well, 


petpeeve said:


> You want to chatter about training? Ok.
> 
> You haven't said whether you use aversives or not, but I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that. Can you give me a more specific example of how / when / why you use them? and maybe we'll go from there.
> 
> Just a word of caution.... don't expect agreement.


Depends, What am I working on? Whats the dogs temperment? Where are we? How long has the dog known the command/sequence I am asking for?

I will say, I haven't picked up a prong collar in over 8 months, but I still use aversive training on the DAILY, thats as simple as walking out of the room when my puppy wont stop eating my shirt, and turning around and not letting my dog see what he wants/go where he wants because he's not being polite on the leash.


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## GSD_and_Mal (Jan 19, 2017)

I use them. My dog wears an e-collar and a prong collar whenever we are training outdoors. I am training her in IGP.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Deacon.dog said:


> I will say, I haven't picked up a prong collar in over 8 months, but I still use aversive training on the DAILY, thats as simple as walking out of the room when my puppy wont stop eating my shirt, and turning around and not letting my dog see what he wants/go where he wants because he's not being polite on the leash.


If you're using these techniques DAILY, I'd strongly say to you that they're just not working. In other words, they're ineffective, unproductive, inefficient, however you want to put it. Your dog is not learning. The undesired behaviours are continuing to occur regularly, because you're not teaching your dog what you actually want him to do. Simple as that. 

For example, the 'turning around' as an aversive measure. I've never really been a fan of that method for leash manners, mainly because it fails to give the dog an opportunity to make the right choice. Which ultimately falls on your shoulders for failing to provide that opportunity. Turning around is basically a fruitless endeavor; it's merely damage control at best. It has no end-goal or long-term aspect to it. In my opinion something like L.A.T. , perhaps in conjunction with 'choose to heel' or similar, would be a much better, much more productive option for you and your dog. 

There ARE ways to lessen, if not virtually eliminate commonly-used aversives from your training regimen. However, it will require that you remove your mind from the quagmire of punitive-style training, first of all. And a knack for creativity is often times a virtue here.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

If your dog is behaving perfectly every day, I'll highly question if its even a dog and not a Robot.

I also think you are failing to understand that I own a 8 month old poodle who is in hardcore teenage phase... yeah he needs to be told off like every 5 seconds because he's a puppy


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

GSD_and_Mal said:


> I use them. My dog wears an e-collar and a prong collar whenever we are training outdoors. I am training her in IGP.


Lovley! My poodle just recently got his BH, hoping to take it further soon c:


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## GSD_and_Mal (Jan 19, 2017)

Deacon.dog said:


> Lovley! My poodle just recently got his BH, hoping to take it further soon c:


That's awesome! I've never seen a poodle in IGP here, would love to see one in action one day!


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> If your dog is behaving perfectly every day, I'll highly question if its even a dog and not a Robot.


And if your dog doesn't listen everyday then maybe you can change tactics? Perhaps your dog does not know what you want from him or maybe he does not know how to work through distractions. These are things you can work through using non aversive methods.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

GSD_and_Mal said:


> That's awesome! I've never seen a poodle in IGP here, would love to see one in action one day!


Look it up on youtube! there are a TON of them! They aren't as "intense" as the mals and german shepherds but mine does a wonderful job c:


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Sugar & Latte said:


> And if your dog doesn't listen everyday then maybe you can change tactics? Perhaps your dog does not know what you want from him or maybe he does not know how to work through distractions. These are things you can work through using non aversive methods.


the difference here is that I am SEEING progress, but my dog isn't perfect and he never will be.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Deacon.dog said:


> I also think you are failing to understand that I own a 8 month old poodle who is in hardcore teenage phase... yeah he needs to be told off like every 5 seconds because he's a puppy


What, exactly, do you mean by "told off" ? and while you're at it could you explain why he "needs" to be subjected to it .... well, let's just say ... very frequently.

If "told off" is what I think it might be, that would seem to indicate either A) a relationship deficiency ie: respect, or B) a training skill deficiency ie: lack of clarity in conveying your wishes, or C) a combination of the two.

I don't really believe in the whole 'puppy teenage phase' thing. For the most part I think it's merely an excuse that some people use to compensate for their own deficiencies, frankly speaking. I've raised A LOT of puppies during my years, and have NEVER witnessed this .. phantom phenomenon. Do puppies experiment in order to discover where the boundaries lie? sure. But good, solid, positive-based training techniques along with gentleness, compassion and understanding have proven to put that whole myth to bed, in my mind's eye and in my experience.

But. Your pup. Do as you will. I'm just sayin' there are ways to eliminate or at least _greatly reduce_ aversives in daily training. That's all.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

told off, told no. I am very confused by you mean why he needs it... How does one never tell their dog no? You talked about allowing your dog to make the right choice, but I'm not sure how the dog learns if its not told no at least once when training something.

Such as a dog in the trash, being in the trash is just as good a getting food and praise from me (no matter the relationship).. being told no is the only way a dog will learn no getting in the trash, because simply ignoring the wrong, to the dog is the same as doing the right

literally everybody I've ever met has gone through a period of their dog simply not listening around 6-8 months.. aversive and positive trainers. Your puppies must of been magic, or you are simply lying.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Deacon.dog said:


> If your dog is behaving perfectly every day, I'll highly question if its even a dog and not a Robot.
> 
> I also think you are failing to understand that I own a 8 month old poodle who is in hardcore teenage phase... yeah he needs to be told off like every 5 seconds because he's a puppy


No dogs behave "perfectly" at all times - no one ever said that they did, or even that they _should_. What I'm failing to understand is that you somehow justify this as a reason to use aversive methods? Why are you "telling off" your puppy constantly? If you are actually having to correct/reprimand him numerous times every day, doesn't that say that what you're doing isn't working? You see results? but then why are you still having to tell him off constantly? I'm honestly confused.


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> How does one never tell their dog no?


Is this the only thing keeping you training with this method? Instead of saying no you would set the dog up for success and show it want you want from them.



Deacon.dog said:


> Such as a dog in the trash, being in the trash is just as good a getting food and praise from me (no matter the relationship)


You would have to show the dog that staying away from the trash is way more rewarding then being in it. Cover the trash and reward the dog for ignoring the garbage when you open it.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

because he's a _puppy_ he needs the structure in his life.

not only is he a puppy, but he's a Poodle puppy, notorious for being through a very intense teenage phase.

he is unruly right now, my near perfect puppy is testing his limits, and it has nothing to do with me at all. Look into the poodle breed, they are just like this around this age.. I have asked SO many poodle people who agree with me that poodles CAN handle adversive and they thrive on it too. 

We aren't all going to agree here, but you simply refusing to understand isn't helpful. Its been proven to not be abusive, and its proven to be affective.

any sort of example you have saying otherwise are cases of people not doing it properly.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Deacon.dog said:


> literally everybody I've ever met has gone through a period of their dog simply not listening around 6-8 months.. aversive and positive trainers. Your puppies must of been magic, or you are simply lying.


Well, now you've met me. Sort of. And I tend to break the mold and dispel many conventional notions, lol. 

Listen, I don't know if I've mentioned it directly to you before or not. Or perhaps you've read it here prior to this discussion. And again, not to brag, but I've been dedicated to my breed for almost 40 years now. They are considered to be a 'N.O.B.' or non-obedience breed by most accounts. Among other achievements, I have excelled with them for many years in the obedience realm, perhaps against all odds. Multiple advanced titles on multiple dogs. Number 1 nationally-ranked dogs for multiple years. 

Its's all hanging on my walls or stored away to be passionately treasured, and recorded in the official CKC records for what I hope is an eternity. I have no need to provide proof to anyone, nor to lie. My experience speaks for itself. 

And yes, although they're not a trick of the light my puppies ARE magic. At least to me.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I have titles hanging on my walls too? I trial with my dogs completly tool-less.. flat collar, no treats... thats how it goes.

the way I get there shouldn't matter, because I got there. 

I like my dogs proofed and as near perfect as possible. I spend time once a week proofing any behaviors I've noticed through the week that I don't want to see. 

So while you don't like what I do, I don't understand how you cant understand it.


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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> Such as a dog in the trash, being in the trash is just as good a getting food and praise from me (no matter the relationship).. *being told no is the only way a dog will learn no getting in the trash, because simply ignoring the wrong, to the dog is the same as doing the right*


When my dog decided to try raiding the bin, I put the bin on top of the counter. No more bin raiding, no reason to say "No.". I also have a baby gate on the kitchen door now. And if she does get into the kitchen, I tell her Out, not "No."

The other way you can reach her to leave the trash is to teach her a game -, Swaps or It's Yer Choice.

You know Swaps, you just probably haven't applied it to dogs yet. But for example, dog has a plastic bottle, you have chicken. Dog learns that if he gives you the boring bottle, you'll give him tasty chicken. Dog leaves the trash, you play his favourite game, or play with his favourite toy. Or he gets a stuffed Kong.

Dog learns that what you have is waaay better than what he currently has.

It's Yer Choice (and this paid off for me just this afternoon without me even realising it).

Hold out a handful of treats. Yes, your dog will move towards the hand - that's the point! You simply close your fist over the hand. Dog leans back. You open your hand. Dog leans back in, hand closed. Dog leans back. You open your hand. Dog pauses, thinks, reassesses. You give dog a treat. Dog leans in. You close your fist. Dog leans back. You open your hand. Dog pauses. You wait a second. Dog gets treat.

And then build it up. The treats are on the floor, with you squatting over them. Dog leans in, hand covers treats. 

Dog learns impulse control. 

I was in the street this afternoon, squatting down so that I was face to face with my lurcher (major foodie and previous treat thief). I had my hand out for about five minutes, her nose inches away from it, and those treats stayed put.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Deacon.dog said:


> because he's a _puppy_ he needs the structure in his life.
> 
> not only is he a puppy, but he's a Poodle puppy, notorious for being through a very intense teenage phase.
> 
> ...


ALL dogs - puppy or not - need structure. Telling a dog "No" is not giving him structure. 

NO living being "thrives" on aversive treatment. Tolerate it or handle it, maybe. _Thrive_? No. 

You refusing to understand that there is a kinder, gentler way to shape your puppy into the type of canine good citizen that you desire isn't helpful either. Your lack of creative & imaginative thinking which leads you to have to reactively stop your pup from constantly doing things you don't think he should be doing, rather than proactively managing him & his environment to help him learn what he should be doing speaks volumes. But, it's easy to blame the dog, rather than take a good hard look in the mirror & realize that the errors are being made on the _human_ end of the leash and embrace an alternate way.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Leave its? Yeah, I do those quite a bit.. usually involves me throwing food near (sometimes on.. oops) my dogs. Its pretty proofed as far as food goes, but we struggle with objects sometimes. I have the ability to train my dog, not just aviod the issue all together, so I keep the can out, and just come running and tell my dog no, and redirect to something else since I have the ability to do that... But honestly, what I have isn't as exting as the chicken bones and spaghetti sauce in the trash can. So telling my dog a firm no, taking him by the collar, and bringing him out of the kitchen, then rewarding is what I'm doing now- Its adversive because he doesn't want to leave the room the yummy smelling can is.

I really dislike being told that because my dogs don't always listen, its because we don't have a strong relationship, and that is simply not true. We have a very strong bond, and I hope you take my word for that. He is my entire world, but I am not afraid to tell him no thanks. Sometimes whatever it is is just too tempting, and honestly that is OKAY! Because we are working on it, and we are working on it my way, because he is MY Dog.. I don't think positive only will get us anywhere any faster... I like what I'm doing, its been effective all my dogs life


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> We aren't all going to agree here, but you simply refusing to understand isn't helpful. Its been proven to not be abusive, and its proven to be affective.


I think you know why we are against aversive training methods so I think it may be pointless for us to argue against it, but I'm wondering if there is a reason why you will not use positive training in place of aversive training? Is it because you don't think it will work?


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Sugar & Latte said:


> I think you know why we are against aversive training methods so I think it may be pointless for us to argue against it, but I'm wondering if there is a reason why you will not use positive training in place of aversive training? Is it because you don't think it will work?


I use positive training, all the time.. I also use aversive training, some of the time. I use what I do because it works, and I don't change my ways because what I am doing works.

Sure, maybe positive will work... but its not something I want to do.

Why? because I LOVE the communication a prong collar gives, and I LOVE the freedom my dog recieves on a e-collar, and i LOVE that my dog respects and responds to pressure on the lead. I love and appreciate every part of what I do. My training has created a dog who respects me in every way. Not because I am mean or harsh with him- but because he understands what I ask, and he knows that I am in control.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Deacon.dog said:


> I have titles hanging on my walls too? I trial with my dogs completly tool-less.. flat collar, no treats... thats how it goes.
> 
> the way I get there shouldn't matter, because I got there.


_"The way I get there shouldn't matter, because I got there."_ ??? This is the saddest thing I have ever read in regards to dog training. Seriously. I am beyond mortified.


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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> I use positive training, all the time.. I also use aversive training, some of the time. I use what I do because it works, and I don't change my ways because what I am doing works.
> 
> Sure, maybe positive will work... but its not something I want to do.
> 
> Why? because I LOVE the communication a prong collar gives, and I LOVE the freedom my dog recieves on a e-collar, and i LOVE that my dog respects and responds to pressure on the lead. I love and appreciate every part of what I do. My training has created a dog who respects me in every way. Not because I am mean or harsh with him- but because he understands what I ask, and he knows that I am in control.


Like I said. Speaking to the human ego.

And he clearly doesn't understand what you ask because he *wouldn't be doing the behaviour you want to stop and therefore you wouldn't have to keep telling him "No"*


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

why?


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

As an austistic person, I've done more research into this topic than a lot of the people I know. 

I simply just wanted to connect with some other dog trainers in a friendly manner, specifically ones who agree with me... I know they are out there. They've gotta be.. I miss my old community.

y'know I'm just trying my best here. I've explained myself a million times.

i'm just going to delete my account, or go inactive. Clearly I'm not wanted here.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Deacon.dog said:


> I have titles hanging on my walls too? I trial with my dogs completly tool-less.. flat collar, no treats... thats how it goes.
> 
> the way I get there shouldn't matter, because I got there.


Oh, but 'the way' SHOULD matter.

'Getting there' is only a miniscule, relatively insignificant part of the achievement. The means by which you arrive and the path you travel upon is far more admirable, in my books. In fact, that's pretty much the whole deal.

You have a lot to learn still.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

ban me for good for all I care, I don't need to be coming back here.

I don't think what I am saying is being understood. I don't tell my dog no all the time. What I am trying to work through with my dog is really difficult, and I'm trying my best.

Just know that I will always continue with what I am doing, because I've never had a dog so in tune with me. He knows everything I want from him, and he's not afraid to mess up either. I've NEVER ever met a happier dog, actually, I had my sister film our training session today. My dog was being awful, but I was laughing my way through it, and at the end he was doing great. 

theres a point where I ask for a sit, and I don't get one, so I put my hand on his head and say sit again , just that physcial contact was a correction to him. Thats how in tune we are. 

He understand every thing i want from him, because I've set down the rules, and I've followed them from the beginning.

I whole heardily believe that I wouldn't have such an amazing dog if it weren't for the way I do things.


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## GSD_and_Mal (Jan 19, 2017)

Deacon.dog said:


> As an austistic person, I've done more research into this topic than a lot of the people I know.
> 
> I simply just wanted to connect with some other dog trainers in a friendly manner, specifically ones who agree with me... I know they are out there. They've gotta be.. I miss my old community.
> 
> ...


I am on the spectrum as well. 

For me, I really don't care what method a trainer uses, I just want to know how a dog looks when he/she is training. If a dog looks happy and engaged, who cares if you are using aversives. If a dog looks hesitant/unhappy when training, I don't care if you are using force-free or balanced methods, it is not suitable for that particular dog. 

There are many ways to cause distress to a dog without ever causing him/her physical pain. Just because a trainer isn't using a prong/e-collar doesn't mean a dog is happy.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

c:

I agree with you.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

I read through all this.. and while I DO use aversive in training, I do not use them as described here.. by pretty much anyone in this discussion. 

I don't use a correction on a puppy. In fact, under about 14 months I avoid corrections. Even a strong puppy can be given boundaries with out resorting to corrections. 

This does not mean all rainbows and cookies. It does mean clarity. 

The one area where I may need to use a corrective device on a puppy is the recall off leash. 

As my dog matures and his understanding of commands is proofed and his DRIVES increase, corrections can come into play. It depends on the dog. This is in a dog bred for work, and in this case the work is highly stimulating and must be performed off leash. An e collar or a prong collar may be very useful. 

Would the same methods and tools be necessary on a Bichon or a Pug or a Pomeranian? Probably not. Upon meeting a dog that an owner has asked for help training do I immediately get a prong collar or an e collar? Absolutely NOT. 

While I have these tools, I don't use them all the time. In fact, I rarely correct my dog and have rarely corrected him. I manage my dog and my dog's environment so that corrections are infrequent. It is far more important for him to be successful.. so we train to that end and reward it.

I make no excuses for the way I train. I have had success. Two dogs sleeping here right now are a testament to that. 

One is a very well trained show line dog. She never wore a prong collar or an e collar. If correction needed, a stern word or look is all it took. She is very nervy and harsh corrections are too much for her.

The other is a working line bred dog. He wears an e collar or a prong collar. He is VERY confident and very different from the other dog. He is also very much a partner. Very rarely he needs a correction.. and it needs be solid, clear and at the right time. Rarely is there a need to repeat it. Today we trained, he had an e collar on. I never touched the button. Most training sessions go like that. 

So that is my wall of text. I use corrections (aversives), but mostly not and not on every dog.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

i have never put any tools on my puppy.


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## GSD_and_Mal (Jan 19, 2017)

Deacon.dog said:


> i have never put any tools on my puppy.


I started walking my Malinois with prongs when they were 4 months old.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

My dog is 8 months old, but I have chosen not to introduce any tools,and other than a E-collar once he's a bit older, I don't think I will ever put a Prong collar on Raleigh. Poodles are in tune with their handlers, I don't think I will be needing any sort of extra communication with him. 

I do understand the temperment difference though, I know high drive dogs need that more than a poodle would.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

I really wanted to stay out of this and other training discussions. IMO it's like discussing religion and politics - you change no minds and lose friends. However, here I am, lured in.

Do any of you human posters actually lead aversion-free lives? Why do we stop for red lights when there's not another auto in sight? Wear masks in situations where there's not another person close enough to infect us with covid or be infected by us? Pay taxes? We do it to avoid the negative consequences of not doing it. I'm retired. It was a lot worse when I was working and had to do things I didn't want to or lose the raise or the job. For that matter, if the aversive consequence of not working wasn't poverty, I'd have preferred to stay home and mess with my horses all day instead of ever going to work. You can, of course, say, "Oh, no, pay for work is the positive reward for the job." Hmm. Two sides of the same coin depending on the attitude of the person, isn't it?

Into every life a little rain must fall. And if I'm correct on some of the latest theories on puppy raising, minor stress like being held upside down for a few seconds is actually good for puppies even before 8 weeks. I just don't believe the utopia some people are sure their dogs need is really good for dogs or anyone else.

So I will confess I train with as much positive reinforcement as possible, but I'm not going to give up using "no" or leash corrections. I'm walking along and my 85-pound high prey drive Rottie forgets me and the leash when a rabbit jumps out all but from under our feet. You bet she's going to get a leash correction when she hits the end of that leash. It's that or let her go. There is a world of difference between a necessary correction and someone slapping an e-collar on a dog who knows nothing and starts zapping away. Sometimes posters here don't seem to distinguish.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm at a point where I really don't care what people use to train their dogs, excepting (of course) outright abusive methods (looking at you, Koehler), or stuff that's so thoroughly debunked it's ridiculous, as well as harmful to dogs and our relationship with them (hello dominance theory). I used to be more about the fight, but honestly? Do what you want to do, I'll do what I want to do, and if someone has genuine questions we can talk. Jumping on people doesn't change minds, and my personal experience is that my mental space and energy can be put to much more productive things that make me and my dogs happier and more fulfilled. Not trying to lecture and say people shouldn't have these arguments, just putting forward my current perspective.

The things I get into about aversive training on this forum, that I DO strongly disagree with, usually fall under three categories:


Aversive training is the ONLY way to train X/non-aversive techniques NEVER work (for a specific scenario or in general)
EVERY dog can/should be trained with aversive techniques
Direct advice on using an aversive tool or technique that is potentially dangerous if done by someone without the right dog handling or training experience, or to address a problem where aversive techniques are known to have severe and possibly dangerous fallout (eg correcting fearful dogs).

The last one might not be a problem in other settings, such as in a group of like-minded trainers whose experience and dogs you know well, but as a public forum where anyone can post and anyone can read the threads, I do feel like it's our responsibility to be careful about training advice in situations where we cannot be sure of either the handler's experience and understanding of the situation or the actual behavior and mindset of the dog(s) in question. That goes for any training techniques - I've told people on here with seriously high-risk dogs that they need to consult an in-person professional rather than a forum, and generally won't advise much myself in those situations other than management - but in many cases aversive techniques do, from everything I've seen and read, require better timing, better understanding of dog body language, and have a higher risk of behavioral fallout when working with high-risk behaviors than many non-aversive techniques do.

There's always going to be stressors and aversive things in our dogs' lives. We can't fix that, and to some degree we don't want to so our dogs learn how to safely and confidently handle scary or stressful situations that are out of our control, and how to recover after they happen. I just personally don't want to set up my relationships with my dogs so that working with me necessarily includes those aversives. That's my choice. But I also acknowledge that - with the exception of some truly dedicated and inventive trainers who are at the leading edge of force-free training - there's going to be aversive elements woven into our interactions and training, and we have to accept that so we can be prepared to recognize when a dog is responding negatively to something we've labeled "positive reinforcement" or "force free" training, or when a dog is getting amped up and frustrated by a technique rather than improving. Same as any trainer. I figure, if both aversive and non-aversive techniques work, I'd rather pick the one that reflects best the kind of relationships and interactions I, personally, want to have with my dogs, and so that's the path I took. Not everyone is me, and that's okay (thank goodness, honestly, what a world THAT would be...lol).


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Deacon.dog said:


> My dog is 8 months old, but I have chosen not to introduce any tools,and other than a E-collar once he's a bit older, I don't think I will ever put a Prong collar on Raleigh. Poodles are in tune with their handlers, I don't think I will be needing any sort of extra communication with him.
> 
> I do understand the temperment difference though, I know high drive dogs need that more than a poodle would.


I have seen some WONDERFULLY high drive Poodles. They can make great hunting dogs (upland and water). That is what they were originally bred for. I have seen them wearing e collars with antenna (trash breaker collar). 

The most important thing is to read the dog in front of you. 
Yesterday training at club another member forgot her e collar. Trust me, her dog has drives and needs the help an e collar can give. I loaned her my e collar and went on the field with just a fursaver, no leash and reward balls. She got in a very necessary single correction. I got in greater rewards. We were BOTH fine (you go on the field in pairs and I went up with her). 

You must KNOW the dog.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

No, I generally don't use aversive techniques. I have a sensitive herding type dog that cannot handle them and really does not need them. Using aversive techniques does not make me feel like a very nice person, so I generally go out of my way to find a different method to communicate with him. Currently, he's a master level agility dog, although our progress with earning new titles has been slowed due to COVID!

For me, if it involves touching the dog (unless we're working on body handling or the "touch" command), I don't do it. If it involves a scary voice or yelling (other than to be heard at a long distance recall, I guess that's technically yelling!), I don't do it. If it's painful or uncomfortable, I don't do it. If I'm angry or frustrated, I choose to walk away and try again when I've calmed down.

My response to undesired behavior is ignore it, withhold a reward (probably technically an aversive, I suppose), manage it so it can't happen again, or train an alternate behavior.

Sure, I've made mistakes and used an aversive technique, especially when he was young and didn't have great manners yet, but I always felt like not a great person afterward, so I decided not to take any "misbehavior" so seriously and remember that he's a dog, literally bred to please and work with humans, and I can find a way to make the experience pleasurable for the both of us and not scary in any way for the dog. I'm the human with the big brain and the opposable thumbs, after all.


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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)

Lillith said:


> No, I generally don't use aversive techniques. I have a sensitive herding type dog that cannot handle them and really does not need them. Using aversive techniques does not make me feel like a very nice person, so I generally go out of my way to find a different method to communicate with him. Currently, he's a master level agility dog, although our progress with earning new titles has been slowed due to COVID!
> 
> For me, if it involves touching the dog (unless we're working on body handling or the "touch" command), I don't do it. If it involves a scary voice or yelling (other than to be heard at a long distance recall, I guess that's technically yelling!), I don't do it. If it's painful or uncomfortable, I don't do it. If I'm angry or frustrated, I choose to walk away and try again when I've calmed down.
> 
> ...










Well said!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Lillith said:


> My response to undesired behavior is ignore it, withhold a reward (probably technically an aversive, I suppose), manage it so it can't happen again, or train an alternate behavior.


This seems to be the biggest mental hurdle for correction-based trainers to get over.

_If I'm not allowed to correct my dog, .. exactly what am I supposed to do?_


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## K9luv (Oct 21, 2020)

How does everyone feel about 'ah ah'? I find it to be a great interrupter and help get my pup on the course I want him to take. Doesn't sound as harsh and works so I can 'tell' him what to do after I get his attention. 



petpeeve said:


> This seems to be the biggest mental hurdle for correction-based trainers to get over.
> 
> _If I'm not allowed to correct my dog, .. exactly what am I supposed to do?_


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I tell my dog "No", or a Shh noise if I'm using verbal corrections.

I prefer something Like a prong, because It gives veryyy fast corrections, the dog has already been corrected for hitting the end of the leash before I can even open my mouth.. The hardest part about dog training is being ON TIME with rewards and corrections. Prongs make it much more accurate


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

K9luv said:


> How does everyone feel about 'ah ah'? I find it to be a great interrupter and help get my pup on the course I want him to take. Doesn't sound as harsh and works so I can 'tell' him what to do after I get his attention.


It's not a matter of _what_ words or sounds are used, it's _how_ they're being used. A verbal correction is designed to simply stop a dog from doing -whatever- and (generally speaking) it has been followed/paired with a stronger (probably physical) correction that the dog finds aversive enough to actually stop a behavior. So the dog learns that 'when I hear *** sound, I'd better stop or something even worse is coming'. 

Then there is a positive interrupter. This is a word/sound that has been positively trained to simply get the dog's attention & has been paired with _good_ things. So, if your dog has learned that when you say 'Ah-ah', it means look at Mom because she's going to give me a cue to earn something wonderful!


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Deacon.dog said:


> I tell my dog "No", or a Shh noise if I'm using verbal corrections.
> 
> I prefer something Like a prong, because It gives veryyy fast corrections, the dog has already been corrected for hitting the end of the leash before I can even open my mouth.. The hardest part about dog training is being ON TIME with rewards and corrections. Prongs make it much more accurate


In this situation, is it fair that the dog has to endure a painful physical correction because the handler was too slow with cueing the dog to slow down or return _before_ actually hitting the end of the leash? Timing is definitely very critical in training, but I don't think a dog should have to be corrected for a lack of handling skill & timing.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

K9luv said:


> How does everyone feel about 'ah ah'? I find it to be a great interrupter and help get my pup on the course I want him to take. Doesn't sound as harsh and works so I can 'tell' him what to do after I get his attention.


If it 'works' for you I'm ok with that. Sort of.

As others have mentioned, it's not about what you consider to be aversive, it's what THE DOG considers to be aversive. 

I had a dog years ago who would cringe at the sound of a verbal interrupter / correction. Not issued by me of course. But during group stay training, for example if a neighbouring handler as much as said 'ah ah' when their dog broke position, mine would react negatively merely from that handler walking in towards their dog with a grimace on their face and inadvertently putting pressure on mine. At times they would physically correct their dog as well. That 'ah ah' became somewhat of a conditioned punisher for my dog, which I learned to counteract by immediately walking in to my dog, smiling and reassuringly, and rewarding him in position, each time an event like that might occur. I continue to do the same procedure these days, with my current dogs, regardless.

It really all depends on the sensitivity of the dog.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Deacon.dog said:


> or a Shh noise if I'm using verbal corrections.


... shades of Cesar Milan ?


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

petpeeve said:


> ... shades of Cesar Milan ?


No, its more of a shh rather that that noise he makes. I've only watched bits and pieces of his show (my dad?? likes it for whatever reason, I don't like him).


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> In this situation, is it fair that the dog has to endure a painful physical correction because the handler was too slow with cueing the dog to slow down or return _before_ actually hitting the end of the leash? Timing is definitely very critical in training, but I don't think a dog should have to be corrected for a lack of handling skill & timing.


.. yeah he knows not to pull. I'm letting him recieve the consequences of pulling ahead. I don't have a "lack of handeling skills" I saw him pulling ahead before he hit the end, I let him make that choice, makes him less likely to do it in the future.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Deacon.dog said:


> .. yeah he knows not to pull. I'm letting him recieve the consequences of pulling ahead. I don't have a "lack of handeling skills" I saw him pulling ahead before he hit the end, I let him make that choice, makes him less likely to do it in the future.


But if he "knows not to pull" then why is he hitting the end of the leash? Obviously he _doesn't_ know. Rewarding him for doing the correct thing also makes him less likely to do it (pull) in the future.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I know not to raid the fridge at 3am and I still do it LOL


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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)

K9luv said:


> How does everyone feel about 'ah ah'? I find it to be a great interrupter and help get my pup on the course I want him to take. Doesn't sound as harsh and works so I can 'tell' him what to do after I get his attention.


I use it with my girls. Like you, I find it to be a great interruptor. For us, "ah ah" means "If you drop what you're about to do, you get a treat." Amazing how quickly it can stop the dog in their tracks if they think doing so will result in a yummy treat - especially if they have no idea whether it'll be cheese, chicken or hot dog. 

However:



petpeeve said:


> if a neighbouring handler as much as said 'ah ah' when their dog broke position,


In this case. I can see how it would become aversive, and if that happened to mine, I'd have to find something else.



Deacon.dog said:


> I don't have a "lack of handeling skills" I saw him pulling ahead before he hit the end, I let him make that choice


In other words, you set your dog up to fail and then punish him for it. Says a lot about you as a dog handler. As does your preference for using a print collar.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

my dog set himself up for failure, it had nothing to do with me. I set him up for sucess by training him to heel, he brought the tension on the collar upon himself.

imagine your dogs only listening bc you have hotdog


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## LMH1012 (Sep 25, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> my dog set himself up for failure, it had nothing to do with me. I set him up for sucess by training him to heel, he brought the tension on the collar upon himself.
> 
> *imagine your dogs only listening bc you have hotdog*


I'm OK with that. I'd much rather them work because they know there's a chance of a treat in it for them, than the fear of what might happen if they don't.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

my dogs aren't afraid.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

IMO the problem is that sometimes the dog may want to do a certain thing more than it wants any treat. Or the initial surge of adrenaline and instinct may overwhelm any canine thought process. So I think you have to train in controlled circumstances, gradually increasing distractions, until obeying becomes so habitual that even in stressing circumstances, the dog's first instinct is correct response to a command. That takes a lot of doing.

I used the example of a rabbit breaking cover almost under our feet before as being too much for even a well-trained high prey drive dog to endure. Story happened to be on leash outside my fenced yard when that happened. In more ordinary circumstances where the rabbit is visible ahead of time or frozen a halfway reasonable distance away, that dog will control herself and continue to work off leash in my yard. She actually held a down stay with a squirrel doing acrobatics in a tree near her in a draft test last year, astonishing me. In these Covid days for the first time I'm walking Story off leash around the rest of my property. I check carefully before setting out to make sure there are no walkers or horses on the right-of-way bordering the property, but recently a bunch of deer sprang out of a dip in the land. My off leash dog abandoned the chase after only a few leaps when I called her, again astonishing me. I suspect she knows darn well she can't catch a deer, but whatever the reason, I was grateful and delighted. And of course I'm now checking what's in that dip before setting out these days.

Dogs are living creatures, not robots. I was at a carting test where the tent under which the dogs were doing their down stay crashed over, all but on top of some dogs. I don't fault a dog for getting the heck out of the way in circumstances like that. I don't want my dogs to be stupid enough to sit or lie there while something dangerous roars down on them.

Digression: Speaking of stupid: I understand why rabbits are menu mainstays for so many predators. I have about an acre fenced around my house. Any rabbit that comes to that fence has got to be able to tell by scent if nothing else that large dogs are frequently loose on the other side of that fence. Yet they not only frequent the yard, the dumb things live in and raise their young in the shrubs at the front of the house. Which means the dogs sometimes catch and kill the even dumber young rabbits now and then, which only heightens prey drive.


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## GSD_and_Mal (Jan 19, 2017)

If a handler feels that saying "no" can potentially ruin his/her relationship with a dog, that kind of says a lot about the relationship as well. Imagine a friendship where if you say "no" to your best friend for doing the wrong thing or going down the wrong path, the relationship is ruined. 

I have a handler-sensitive Malinois, when I tell her "no," she knows what it means and moves on. We don't dwell on it. 

As for sensitivity to verbal corrections, um....I have had multiple foster dogs that were afraid of my clicker when they first came, several ran and hid in their crates just from the sound of one click. I didn't stop using a clicker because of it. Most got desensitized to it over time, for a couple of them, I just switched to a verbal marker. 

Unless you don't ever use punishment, which is impossible, since withholding a treat is a form of punishment, then as a handler, you are stressing your dog one way or the other. You are either withholding a treat and stressing him mentally, or you are using an aversive (choke/prong/e-collar) to stress him physically. Some trainers feel that withholding a reward is kinder than a popping a dog on a correction collar, maybe, maybe not, depends on the dog, and depends on the situation. As a punishment, I would much rather get a few slaps on my hand than to lose my pay for the day. Someone else may prefer the opposite. Punishment works for a reason.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

petpeeve said:


> This seems to be the biggest mental hurdle for correction-based trainers to get over.
> 
> _If I'm not allowed to correct my dog, .. exactly what am I supposed to do?_


It's a mental hurdle for me sometimes! I think it helped to realize and accept that I do not _have to_ correct my dog right this second. The world is not going to end if I let him get away with something or do something wrong and I ignore it or manage it until I can figure out how to adjust my training. It was a great relief for both of us.



K9luv said:


> How does everyone feel about 'ah ah'? I find it to be a great interrupter and help get my pup on the course I want him to take. Doesn't sound as harsh and works so I can 'tell' him what to do after I get his attention.


It might work for a while, but I found my dog just started to ignore it because it wasn't associated with anything because I had never trained him to know it meant anything, or if I did it in the wrong tone of voice I would get an unhappy dog. I had better results with just saying his name or the "look at me" command (which is a whistle, in my case) because each had been very heavily rewarded and _meant_ something too him.

Have I made some sort of irritating noise to stop my dog from doing something? Ha, yes, especially when he's about to roll in or eat something disgusting and speech has fled my brain, but I try to give my dog actual information instead of blurting noises, haha! If your 'ah-ah' has been trained to mean something, then it's likely useful.



Deacon.dog said:


> I tell my dog "No", or a Shh noise if I'm using verbal corrections.
> 
> I prefer something Like a prong, because It gives veryyy fast corrections, the dog has already been corrected for hitting the end of the leash before I can even open my mouth.. The hardest part about dog training is being ON TIME with rewards and corrections. Prongs make it much more accurate


Prongs really shouldn't be used on a dog that has not yet learned proper leash manners. I believe you said your dog was under a year, correct? Although you've likely gotten a good start on leash training, your dog probably doesn't understand that he shouldn't put pressure on the leash no matter the situation. Dogs do not generalize well, and puppies just don't have the mental capacity to completely grasp the concept. You cannot correct a dog for something it doesn't know.

Additionally, how do you know your dog is truly learning that putting pressure on the leash = pain? What if he's lunging because he's excited to see another dog/person/thing and hits the end of the leash, and then accidentally thinks that seeing another dog = pain? This is something that can happen with many tools that cause discomfort.



Deacon.dog said:


> my dog set himself up for failure, it had nothing to do with me. I set him up for sucess by training him to heel, he brought the tension on the collar upon himself.
> 
> imagine your dogs only listening bc you have hotdog


Conversely, imagine your dog only listening to you because you he's afraid of you or of pain. Which do you want? You should also consider that many of us here who use positive and force free methods compete in dog sports, obedience, rally, etc. We are not allowed to have treats in the ring.



GSD_and_Mal said:


> If a handler feels that saying "no" can potentially ruin his/her relationship with a dog, that kind of says a lot about the relationship as well.


There are far more dogs than you would ever imagine that can not handle any sort of correction. This may because they were traumatized or abused at some point. Most are genetically predisposed to it. And you're right, it does say a lot about the relationship. It says the handler has recognized that their dog is sensitive, and that the handler has chosen to use training methods that are gentle and free of force and stress the dog as little as possible.

Generally, dogs seem to become more confident as you continue to work with them. My dog is one of those sensitive dogs that can't really handle corrections, but as he's gained confidence and trust in me, he can handle being reset when he's taken an obstacle wrong, he knows that my frustrated sigh isn't really directed at him, and he knows that me raising my voice is so he can hear me over the 60 other barking dogs in the arena.

I know that he can likely handle a 'no' at this point...but why? We've gotten where we've needed to go without anger, without pain or discomfort, and without fear, and through some pretty tremendous behavioral issues and general super energetic and obnoxious puppy crap, I might add.



GSD_and_Mal said:


> Punishment works for a reason.


You are absolutely right. It does work for a reason.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

I use the ahn ahn sound. It means "Don't do that" and my dogs understand it just fine. For instance, the land I talked about doing off leash walks over has only 3-strand wire fence around it. It's horse pasture. So we walk along and Story goes to the fence and starts to duck under the lowest strand. I go ahn ahn, and she pulls back and continues along on the inside of the fence line. It's an actual command that I give knowingly.

In contrast "no" is a panic command, the panic being mine. I just dropped medicine on the floor and a dog is going for it. Or I dropped a glass bowl, it shattered, and a dog is heading to see what happened. The dogs understand it means "Eek! Don't do that!" and maybe I'm wrong, but I think they also understand that not doing it is on a whole different level of importance than when I just say ahn ahn.

Neither of those commands makes my dogs look fearful. With the ahn ahn they just go back to doing whatever they were doing. With the no they tend to stop in their tracks and look at me like, "All right, all right, calm down."

That said, one thing maybe not emphasized enough in this discussion is the difference in breeds and even individual dogs. I know just from having fostered some more sensitive dogs than my own that if I were to get say a whippet, my dog world would change massively. Of course I wouldn't get a dog like that because delicate and sensitive annoy me, and I'm sure those dogs feel the same way about me. We don't suit.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I know I can be a bit confusing, but I have stated several times, I have not put any tools on my 8 month old. When I discuss using tools, I am talking about my 7 year old dog who knows dang well how to heel


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Deacon.dog said:


> my dogs aren't afraid.



Wait wut ???

If this was true, then the use of any aversives would be _absolutely futile_ in every sense of the words.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm fine with an interrupter in my own training (like "ah-ah") so long as it's always then followed by an instructive cue. Otherwise it just becomes another vague sound we make that doesn't have a clear meaning to the dogs. For a very sensitive dog, or for a dog I'm building a relationship with, I may create a 'positive interrupter' by pairing the sound with a treat, so that the dog is motivated to stop what they're doing and look to me for instruction because the sound means goodies are coming.

'No' could theoretically be an interrupter, but I don't like using it because it's a loaded word to us, the humans. It becomes very easy to slip into the habit of just telling our dogs 'no' in harsher and harsher tones while skipping the 'instructive cue' part of the picture (which is arguably the most important part). Not making assumptions here, I've been there with using 'no', especially outside of formal training session when my focus is on something besides managing my dogs effectively. Especially with the younger one, that usually means I waste a lot of time telling him "no" or "get off" or just "Frodo!" until I finally get up and show him what I DO want him to do, and then he's magically much better behaved. For a little while.

While there are dogs who absolutely cannot handle hearing 'no' or any interrupter in any kind of stern tone (or, for that matter, having a treat withheld, or praise that's too intense, of course 'positive' techniques and methods are only as positive as the dog they're being used on finds them), my issue with 'no' is that it's a super vague word that makes things confusing in dog training. Not for everyone - some people are extremely consistent with using it only in very specific situations - but in general, especially for inexperienced trainers. As for everything else, any good trainer who has a dog that's responding excessively negatively to a given training technique or cue needs to assess whether desensitizing is worth it or even feasible, that has nothing to do with training methods used.

The dog decides what's 'too' aversive, no argument there. But _in general_, most techniques and methods used in force-free, positive reinforcement, reward-based, etc. philosophies are going to fall below that threshold for _most dogs_, while physical corrections are far closer to that threshold - or over - for a larger percentage of dogs. I have no problems with people who want to sit closer to that border with their dogs than I do with mine - plenty of trainers are perfectly capable of assessing their dogs and situation so their physical corrections are as fair and effective as possible. Not my thing, and I respect that. Sure wish more people on the balanced training side of the equation would respect the choice to use no physical corrections, though.

Storyist, my only minor quibble with the argument where sometimes the environment is more rewarding than what the handler can offer is that there's also going to be times for most dogs where the environment is more rewarding than any punishment a handler can safely and effectively deliver. In those moments, the reward/punishment history of that dog with that handler is going to matter more than anything else, whether recall's been trained with or without corrections. That's where knowing the dog you're working with, the environment, and practicing appropriate management come in - important things to keep in mind for any trainer using any method. I could just as easily argue that building a solid reward history for recalls is superior because I can call my teenager off flushing and chasing birds when he's running loose in his favorite field. You do have a point, but it's applicable to dog training in general, not a flaw in only one philosophy.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I to biggy back on the fear discussion,

yes, dogs are VERY good at hiding their fear/pain etc. But there are also some subtle signs we can pick up on when training our dogs.

Never ONCE has my dog yawned, licked his lips, whined, barked, backed away, tucked his tail, changed his body posture ETC, While being given a correction, or while wearing a prong/E-collar.

Beyond that, using a crutch (treats, praise, a tool) is a big "Problem" amoung trainers who use any methods. I can proudly say that I can work my dog completly naked (flat collar & leash) , no treats, no praise, and he will behave just as well as when He's decked out in a prong/ecollar/being fed treats. etc.

and if somebody would like some "proof" I'll happily film a training session for you c:


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Deacon.dog said:


> you can train a dog without fear , I do it.
> 
> proves how little you know about aversive training in the first place.
> 
> should you even be apart of this discussion?


I agreed with you, and I 'liked' this particular post merely because I firmly believe that's ALL you're looking for here.

You know ... "discussions" almost always contain opposing viewpoints. And from those viewpoints, we progress as individual dog lovers and trainers. We dispel and discard long-held notions and beliefs. We _respectfully_ appreciate the efforts and opinions that our peers put forth, and WE LEARN.

Well, most of us learn anyway. Others solely want to commiserate with like-minded fools, and deliberately seek their so-called support. You've clearly stated this as your objective here.

Monopolizing and cherry-picking desired responses is NOT how forums work, nor is it how they SHOULD work. Seriously, doing so pretty much defeats the purpose of having a public forum in the first place.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

DaySleepers said:


> Storyist, my only minor quibble with the argument where sometimes the environment is more rewarding than what the handler can offer is that there's also going to be times for most dogs where the environment is more rewarding than any punishment a handler can safely and effectively deliver. In those moments, the reward/punishment history of that dog with that handler is going to matter more than anything else, whether recall's been trained with or without corrections.


We have no disagreement there. A dog trained with aversives is going to react instinctively to those situations the same way as a dog trained with rewards. The big difference would be how those dogs would act after it's all over. At that time they'd both be in the whoops, I screwed up stage and the reward-trained dog would merely accept it wasn't going to get the reward, where the punishment trained dog would be showing anxiety, knowing and if not fearing, not wanting to go through what was coming.

As I said, to overcome instinctive reactions in those situations, you have to be able to train to a very high level where response to handler becomes the instinct instead of what's born in. I doubt most of us working with just our own dogs ever reach that level, and it's going to be harder for some people and some dogs than others. Military and police dogs maybe, but those dogs are bred and chosen for the work, and I think there's still a lot of punishment based training going on there. Seeing Eye type dogs? When I worked for lawyers, I saw a lawsuit by a blind man and his family because a dog supposedly trained to help him failed and the man was badly hurt, although I wondered if the organization that provided the dog was some lesser outfit.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

P.S. In case I've given the wrong impression, I train as much as I'm able with reward-based methods and probably rely too heavily on treats. Hell would freeze over before I'd use an e-collar. Although I have used a prong in certain situations, I don't expect it will ever happen again. My philosophy is merely that it's impossible to totally avoid aversives. They happen naturally in everyday life, and we all need to be able to handle them. When it comes to dog training, maybe that's just a failure or weakness in me, but I also think it may have something to do with large, strong dogs.

I've reached the age where I need to downsize with my next dog. Call me an elitist, but when I want to continue competing in Rally, Obedience, and other companion sports, I also want to start with a puppy. Of course I've never found puppies to be the overwhelming horrors some who post here seem to. For me they're charming little suckers who steal my heart, which gets us through the teenage year or 18 months. I've read _When Pigs Fly_ and other positive-only books and watched a lot of videos on training particular commands via clicker (I've used a clicker in minor ways in the past, lovely for training Sit) and want to try those methods and ideas with my next dog, which I'm pretty sure is going to be from a breed a lot more difficult to train, if not to restrain, than my Rotties.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying with how the dog acts 'after it's all over'? Not nitpicking, just trying to get on the same page! In my mind, an incident would be 'all over' once they've returned to the handler and are back to some degree of baseline, maybe not totally calm and focused but at least collected enough to continue the outing or, worst case scenario, to allow themselves to be leashed up. I'm guessing that's not it, because that's too late for rewards or punishments.

A dog who hasn't had a solid reinforcement history for recalls isn't going to be thinking much about that treat when their owner calls them, that's true. But a dog without a history of punishment for blowing off recalls also isn't going to feel that anticipation that causes them to inhibit their actions and arousal, either. A dog with a really solid reinforcement history isn't recalling for a single treat, it's recalling on an instinctual level, as you put it, for all those treats and positive experiences they've had in past recalls. Especially if the handler has made darn sure that more difficult recalls get higher value rewards (not talking treats only, whatever's super high value for that dog). If done well (and I'm not saying I've mastered this myself), the recall cue itself becomes rewarding and holds value above and beyond any reward the handler can offer. Just like a dog who's been trained with punishment is going to have a different emotional reaction to the recall after being corrected several times for blowing it off, which motivates them to respond faster and with more intensity. Again, not arguing the efficacy here.

The one thing I'll give you: usually it takes fewer repetitions of well-timed punishments to start to see that response than recall rehearsals with rewards. Punishment is great for single event learning - most animals are hard-wired to remember negative events more intensely and hold them in higher regard for future decision making than positive events. While great if done well, that's actually one of the reasons I don't use it, because I, personally, don't like to take the risk that a punishment I deliver might teach the dog to associate the wrong thing with the negative event, whether due to poor timing or my misreading of the situation. 

But I also don't find practicing recalls to be especially onerous. Attention games do it. Calling the dog back every few minutes to check in (whether on a lead, a long line, or off-leash) does it. Fetch does it. Rewarding for the dog checking in on their own accord does it. Any training that teaches the dog to drive towards you for whatever reason does it. I often pair it with something that reduces the value of the environment: I release the dog back to whatever he was doing before. This means that coming to me, rather than meaning the dog loses access to the greater environment, means 99% of the time they'll be rewarded by going back to that environment. Even - sometimes especially - when the environment is super valuable, like the place where local hunters dumped a moose skin (obviously not if the environment is actively dangerous).

I fumbled my way a lot through Sam's younger days, and we absolutely have extra challenges when it comes to him. He gets fewer off-leash privileges as a result, because one of his issues is managing arousal and it doesn't mix well with surprises off-leash. Punishing him for blowing off recalls will probably make him more reliable, but I also know his arousal control problems stem from insecurity and feeling out of control, and that's a volatile mix to throw corrections into. We're seeing results, especially as we learn more about why he acts the way he does, and particularly seeing him chose us more over throwing a fit over something in his environment, so I don't see the point, in his case, of choosing corrections and their potential fallout over the games and training exercises we're currently using.

...I'm getting off-topic, sorry. My point is, going in with Frodo and being lot more experienced and aware of all the small things I can do in daily life to build towards solid, off-leash recall (including letting the dog be off-leash in safe outdoor spaces _before_ they're 3-4 years old), I'm seeing beautiful results. I can't take all the credit - he's a smart and very people-oriented dog (though also finds the environment extremely rewarding) - but I can absolutely believe that building a highly reliable, near-instinctive recall in high distraction situations is doable with him and many dogs, completely correction-free.

If, for whatever reason, I had a dog that had to be off-leash reliable Right Now and it was a matter of life, livelihood, or death, I may resort to corrections. But I try to not have to put myself in those situations.

For the record - not speaking for everyone who sticks to mostly reward/force free philosophies here of course - I am absolutely on board with people using whatever tool they find works best for them and their dog, especially when it comes to managing a strong, large animal. Safety always has to come first, and sometimes that means using a no-pull harness or a prong or something else that wouldn't be part of your everyday toolbox in an ideal situation. Personally my goal would be to wean off the tool as soon as possible to a body harness or flat/martingale collar so I could work with the dog in ways I'm more comfortable with, but I haven't been in a situation where I've had to make that choice yet, and understand that many of these things are easier said than done. 

And again, I accept that there's always going to be discomfort and aversive experiences in our dogs' lives, and we all need to learn how to cope with and recover from them, I just don't want that to have to be part of our relationship any more than it has to be for the health and safety of me or the dog. I'm even working out cooperative care strategies to reduce the need for stress and restraint in most routine grooming tasks - and eventually hope I can add on veterinary procedures too. Hard to argue with techniques that have taught a hyena to stand still and calm, completely conscious and unmedicated, while zoo vets take a blood sample from its jugular!


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

DaySleepers said:


> I'm not sure I'm getting what you're saying with how the dog acts 'after it's all over'? Not nitpicking, just trying to get on the same page! In my mind, an incident would be 'all over' once they've returned to the handler and are back to some degree of baseline, maybe not totally calm and focused but at least collected enough to continue the outing or, worst case scenario, to allow themselves to be leashed up. I'm guessing that's not it, because that's too late for rewards or punishments.


I was thinking of particularly the recall. Dog doesn't come for whatever reason. Reward-based dog knows it's missed out and when handler gets to dog or dog finally comes, dog is kind of waggy and whoops, my bad. Punishment-trained dog expects an aversive consequence, whether verbal or physical and gets cringy. Maybe I'm assuming here that people who train a recall with aversives believe in negative consequences for the blowing-off even when they have to go to the dog or pull it to them if on a line and maybe that's wrong and I'm just thinking of people who don't know better catching a dog that didn't come and yelling or collar jerking.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I can't speak to everyone, but if my dog comes back to me after blowing off a difficult recall I celebrate. Total treat party, dancing, praise, etc as I sneakily hook them back up to the lead and make a plan for how to make sure that does NOT happen again. I don't ever want my dogs to not get rewarded for returning, even if they were being little turds right before - I can't fix what just happened, but I can make sure they didn't learn that I'm a bummer to come back to. Fixing the problem that caused the blown recall is a separate thing.

My understanding is that a good trainer who uses aversives won't correct the dog if they have to go get it or it comes back to them on their own, either. That's a situation where you really need to have an e-collar, so you can correct the moment you see the dog isn't responding to the recall. Anything later and you just teach the dog that you're unpleasant to be around or come back to. I might be off-base here, since it's not the way I train, but there's definitely a difference between fair and effective corrections and just punishing the dog because it makes the trainer feel like they've done something about the 'bad' behavior, for sure. Someone who trains without aversives can mess up a recall too by using it to call the dog for a bath, to leave the dog park, to get a leash hooked up and go home, etc.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

DaySleepers said:


> The one thing I'll give you: usually it takes fewer repetitions of well-timed punishments to start to see that response than recall rehearsals with rewards.


I hope the "you" in that quote is general and doesn't mean me. The first training class I ever signed up for years ago was Koehler (remember, I'm an old broad). Fortunately for me, the instructor had some problem and canceled and I went elsewhere and was introduced to reward-based, although still with some corrections. However, I've never used an aversive of any kind in training a recall, and I've got to say my dogs have terrific recalls, the kind where you're afraid they aren't going to stop in time. But until these recent Covid-makes-me-do-it walks with my older dog, I've never let one of my Rotties off leash anywhere but my own fenced yard and in competition, which is why the recall when the deer appeared so flabbergasted and delighted me.

So like you, I've had quite a journey when it comes to my dog training experience, and I hope it's not over for quite some time yet.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Just a gentle (this time) reminder: Personal insults are not tolerated on Dog Forums. Nor can any member dictate who may respond to a thread or what kinds of responses are acceptable. *

If you believe someone has violated forum rules, click on the three little dots to the upper right of the post and select "Report." This will give you the means to alert the moderator and initiate a review. 

* Moderators get to dictate what kinds of responses are UNACCEPTABLE, which isn't as much fun as it probably sounds.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

DaySleepers said:


> I can't speak to everyone, but if my dog comes back to me after blowing off a difficult recall I celebrate. Total treat party, dancing, praise, etc as I sneakily hook them back up to the lead and make a plan for how to make sure that does NOT happen again. I don't ever want my dogs to not get rewarded for returning, even if they were being little turds right before - I can't fix what just happened, but I can make sure they didn't learn that I'm a bummer to come back to. Fixing the problem that caused the blown recall is a separate thing.
> 
> *My understanding is that a good trainer who uses aversives won't correct the dog if they have to go get it or it comes back to them on their own, either. That's a situation where you really need to have an e-collar, so you can correct the moment you see the dog isn't responding to the recall.* Anything later and you just teach the dog that you're unpleasant to be around or come back to. I might be off-base here, since it's not the way I train, but there's definitely a difference between fair and effective corrections and just punishing the dog because it makes the trainer feel like they've done something about the 'bad' behavior, for sure. Someone who trains without aversives can mess up a recall too by using it to call the dog for a bath, to leave the dog park, to get a leash hooked up and go home, etc.


I have been following this and I just want to add the BEST way to teach a dog to blow off a recall is to repeat the call over and over while the dog does not come to you. I see it all the time. You can train a dog to be immune to recall this way. 

Every time the young dog comes to you it is a party. Every. Time. However, as a dog matures they often become more independent and you are no longer as interesting as that bush or stick or great smell.. and at that point the dog blows off the recall that has been so reliable. And.. at that point is where the dog loses freedom until the owner figures out the fix. 

The fix can be the relationship. It really offends people when you tell them the issue is the relationship.. but often that is the case and a lot more is involved making that better. Some dogs have better pack drive and the relationship is easy. Other dogs not so much.. and this is a hard wired thing. 

As noted by Day Sleepers where I added emphasis, the e collar tool is effective for recall and the description of use is spot on as far as timing goes. The first time it is used the dog needs to be in an enclosed area and the instant the dog heads back the party starts. The e collar level needs to be high enough to have impact and the first time a bit higher is better than too low. The object is to convey recall means come to safety and the handler is safety because not responding means "the bees will get you." Within a session or two, most dogs can be reliable off leash with an e collar. 

As for fear being created by aversives.. that is when you are using too much and improperly (dog may not understand and needs more teaching, aversive is too harsh for that particular dog, aversive delivered at the wrong time and so forth). I have dog that increases drive and intensity when stimmed during heeling for inattention. Many would say that makes no sense.. but in a high(er) drive dog it works because they know that intensity will earn a reward (or has a reward history). Of course the dog that does this rarely needs a reminder so the use of the stimulation is rare by this stage of training. 

Again, while I use aversives in training they are not the basis of my training nor should they be the basis of any training. They are a tool, from a negative marker such as No or Uh uh.. to a physical correction and their use should be fair and clear and infrequent. If you have to do a lot of corrections you are doing something wrong and need to step back and reconsider the path you are on. A constantly tight leash.. constant physical guidance.. lot of pops on a collar and so forth in any training session means the handler probably needs a more lessons than the dog does.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

@storyist No offense meant! I just used it as a turn of phrase to mean that I acknowledge that aversive training has an advantage over reward-based in that it tends to get results quicker (if done correctly), not that I literally thought you, personally, were only using corrections and specifically corrections in this scenario. 

I also agree with 3GSD in that sometimes a dog has to lose or get reduced off-leash privileges, no matter what training methods you do, while you work through an issue. Whether it's a developmental stage where the dog needs to be reminded that yes, you still need to respond to cues and pay attention to your handler, or a more complicated issue like my older dog's arousal and insecurity that causes him to lose his brain when something happens that he thinks is out of place (like another dog showing up). Good management to make sure your dog is both safe and not a nuisance should be key for any decent handler or trainer, even if it's only temporary while you work out better communication or behavior modification.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

DaySleepers said:


> @storyist No offense meant! I just used it as a turn of phrase to mean that I acknowledge that aversive training has an advantage over reward-based in that it tends to get results quicker (if done correctly), not that I literally thought you, personally, were only using corrections and specifically corrections in this scenario.


No, I never even thought of being offended, just wanted to clarify. Hope that wasn't what provoked the moderator input. It's just so hard to get things across in posting back and forth and I wanted to be clear that while I could, because of the things I still do (and my belief that protecting a dog from all stress isn't good for them), be fairly described as a "balanced" trainer, my use of aversives and belief in them is way less than some here (and shrinking all the time).

Reading all these posts, I wonder if some of us have come to our beliefs and ways of training because of the kinds of dogs we have had either by choice or happenstance. Some have wide experience with many breeds, but for me it's been all large, strong, physically and mentally tough dogs. I watch others in my training classes with far more sensitive dogs that move hesitantly and shut down easily and wonder how I'd do with that even while knowing I don't have the patience or desire.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I think that has some of the case.

My dog is a mutt, but my assumed breed mix for him is hound(beagle?) x pit bull. He def. has the hound type stubbornness that led me to using more aversive training methods.

My next/future dog breeds will for sure take me in a different training route.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Deacon.dog said:


> My next/future dog breeds will for sure take me in a different training route.


Mine may too. I'm seriously considering a Shiba Inu for my "old lady's dog." My Akitas were so easy to live with, and at that time all my training efforts were devoted to horses, but I have a pretty good idea of how very different a Shiba would be from a Rottie.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

American Akita, or Akita Inu?


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Deacon.dog said:


> American Akita, or Akita Inu?


At the time I had them, there was only "the" Akita. In fact when I got my first one, as I remember they'd just made it into AKC's Miscellaneous class. However, nowadays, they'd both be considered American Akitas. They both had masks. The first one was on the light-boned side, which from photos I think is more like the Akita Inu, and since I got her in the 60's, she would have been closer in generations to early imports. I think she came to the woman I got her from as a stud fee puppy or something, as she hadn't bred her and was obviously disappointed because she wasn't the quality she wanted. However, the vet I used at the time told me when people asked him what did he think was the best kind of dog, he answered, "Akita. I've only met one, and it's the best dog I ever met." She affected a lot of people like that.

The second one was pretty much everything today's American show Akitas are, and it was her appearance that really impressed people. She weighed 105 in good shape in her prime and was very much like what I see around the Akita show rings today except I see a lot of pintos and she was solid what I think they call goma. Black mask and tweedy gray body. She was from a litter bred for show and sold to me as pet because she was a little pigeon-toed in front.

I lost that second girl in the 80's, and I've often wondered since if the American breeders have changed the temperament a lot because I see all the dog info saying Akitas are aggressive, etc. Neither of mine were in any way. They went everywhere with me, and that was back when I could take them to horse shows and let them loose on the grounds. They never caused trouble, had more friends than I did. I could go to a strange horse barn, and they never bothered resident dogs or cats or other livestock. They were hell on wheels the couple of times another dog really jumped them, but they'd quit as soon as they could. Looking back, I know I didn't have the knowledge or skill back then to do much training with either one. I can remember the second girl in the yard one day when I called her. She stopped, looked over her shoulder at me, and then continued on her way. It was as if she not only wasn't going to come but wanted to make sure I knew she had heard me and was choosing to ignore me.

With the first Rottie I got on the other hand, at 3 months I remember looking at her and thinking, "This may be the first dog I have to give up because she's too much for me." That led to training classes, learning how to handle her, to doing Rottie rescue, and finally to training for competition.

More than you ever wanted to know, right?


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

hah, I loved reading all of that! Usually I'll see a long post and scroll past.

very interesting! Yes, I've also heard alot about agressive Akitas- my Sister really wants an American Akita.. I had to look into them more because I was afriad for her.. I didn't want her to own an Agressive dog... I think its just genetics, You've got to find a good breeder.. just like all the other breeds.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Deacon.dog said:


> Yes, I've also heard alot about agressive Akitas- my Sister really wants an American Akita.. I had to look into them more because I was afriad for her.. I didn't want her to own an Agressive dog... I think its just genetics, You've got to find a good breeder.. just like all the other breeds.


I suspect it's like with Rotties, and a problem is that there are too many "good" breeders who breed either primarily or exclusively for conformation winners - which is to say they don't care that much about temperament unless it's so bad a professional handler can't show the dog in the breed ring. Some sadly also don't care much about what they sell as pet puppies. If a puppy has a flaw that keeps it from being breed ring champion material, it's second class all the way. So you have to know your "good" breeder more than superficially, what their breeding stock is like, and where they place their emphasis.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

yeah, I agree. the breeding world really does suck right now.

I am obsessed with dog breeders.. I research them.. every breed.. everything. I think I know pretty well how to spot not only a breeder of well bred dogs, but a breeder of dogs with a sound temperment, and a breeder who's dogs can do what the dog is meant to do.


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## mustluvdogs66 (Mar 30, 2017)

Deacon.dog said:


> I also think you are failing to understand that I own a 8 month old poodle who is in hardcore teenage phase... yeah he needs to be told off like every 5 seconds because he's a puppy


If you focus more on rewarding the positive moments with your teenager, than telling off the negative actions, you’ll both find more success and a better relationship.
I never have and never would use a prong, shock or e-collar. You couldn’t pay me to do that to my dogs.
My dogs are not perfect, nor are they robots. We both make mistakes and then aim to be better. Communicate. Trust. Enrich. Train without pain.


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## mustluvdogs66 (Mar 30, 2017)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> No dogs behave "perfectly" at all times - no one ever said that they did, or even that they _should_. What I'm failing to understand is that you somehow justify this as a reason to use aversive methods? Why are you "telling off" your puppy constantly? If you are actually having to correct/reprimand him numerous times every day, doesn't that say that what you're doing isn't working? You see results? but then why are you still having to tell him off constantly? I'm honestly confused.


Very well put. This post is confusing, which may be why communicating with their dog is confusing the dog.


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## ClanWorgen (Feb 2, 2021)

I thought discussion of aversive dog training was against the rules here, or has that changed?


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

Maybe your thinking of the other dog forum?


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## ClanWorgen (Feb 2, 2021)

Sugar & Latte said:


> Maybe your thinking of the other dog forum?


Could be, I think I got banned from there like 5 years ago LOL


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

Well as you can see from this thread (and many more) it’s allowed but not the most popular.


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## ClanWorgen (Feb 2, 2021)

Sugar & Latte said:


> Well as you can see from this thread (and many more) it’s allowed but not the most popular.


Ah yeah, I generally expect the online dog community leans more positive methods, I just enjoy it being open to discussion rather than prohibited


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

I enjoy discussing it too! I’ve certainly learned a lot from this forum which seems to be a perfect mixture of aversive trainers and R+ trainers. People tend to lean towards positive reinforcement but also enough in the other direction that you can gain lots of insight rather then biased opinions!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

ClanWorgen said:


> I thought discussion of aversive dog training was against the rules here, or has that changed?


You could always read the rules to clear up those little mysteries.


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## ClanWorgen (Feb 2, 2021)

RonE said:


> You could always read the rules to clear up those little mysteries.


I did, which is why I searched 'aversive' to see a discussion about it so I could ask. I was sure it used to be against the rules. It must have been the other forum


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Allowed yes, but every time its mentioned some members get really angry.

Since this thread got dug up!! Last night I used the prong... I was trying to clean up deacons "down command". He gets it confused with "bow" and was slow to put his butt to the ground. We spend 5 min sessions twice trying to fix it but he wasn't understanding and he was getting VERY frusterated with me. I didn't want to pull out the prong, I am working on only using it when needed, but I decided why not. So, I asked him for a down and helped lead him down with the collar... ahah! he figured it out. Now everything goes down at once. I coulda done the same with a flat collar or a harness, but the prong is a little bit more touchy (he can feel it with less pressure, it takes more pressure to get a responce on a flat or harness).. Anyways, just wanted to share a sucess story c:. Happy happy downs with extra understandig now.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Deacon.dog said:


> Allowed yes, but every time its mentioned some members get really angry.
> 
> Since this thread got dug up!! Last night I used the prong... I was trying to clean up deacons "down command". He gets it confused with "bow" and was slow to put his butt to the ground. We spend 5 min sessions twice trying to fix it but he wasn't understanding and he was getting VERY frusterated with me. I didn't want to pull out the prong, I am working on only using it when needed, but I decided why not. So, I asked him for a down and helped lead him down with the collar... ahah! he figured it out. Now everything goes down at once. I coulda done the same with a flat collar or a harness, but the prong is a little bit more touchy (he can feel it with less pressure, it takes more pressure to get a responce on a flat or harness).. Anyways, just wanted to share a sucess story c:. Happy happy downs with extra understandig now.


It says a lot about someone as a trainer if they resort to using aversive pressure after spending a whole, whopping 10 minutes of total time trying to achieve a certain behavior. What it tells me is that this trainer is very impatient & wants instant results, but they have very poor mechanical training skills themselves. It also tells me that they are unwilling to shoulder any of the 'blame' for the fact that they are being unclear with the dog & that is the reason for the slow response. Resorting to using the threat of discomfort or actual discomfort is an easy & quick cop out. The dog did the 'down' to avoid the feeling of the prong. The dog wasn't "Happy Happy" - the human was. Calling this a 'success story' says a whole lot about the moral & ethical make up of the trainer. I find this story extremely sad & nothing to brag about.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Thanks for sharing your input.

I don't care what you think . I didn't do it because I was unwilling to wait, I did it because my dog was frusterated and I was communicating with him. 

Extremly sad, BAHAHHA.. yeah, my dog is so so so sad.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

You were "communicating with him" by stabbing him in the neck with metal spikes. 

Imagine advanced aliens came to earth and decided to communicate with us. Would you rather they at least tried force-free methods first, or are you in favor of immediate anal probes for the sake of efficiency?


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

HAHA STABBING... Stabbing "make a thrusting gesture or movement at something with a pointed object."

awh, I guess a little pop on a prong that has rounded prongs is so abuisve  .. somebody take away my dog!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Deacon.dog said:


> somebody take away my dog!


This, minus the sarcasm. When he's not in a crate in your garage, he's being handled using abusive methods. You care more about "results" (I put that in quotation marks because you're not actually training him to do a necessary job, it's just for your ego) than about the dog's well-being. You treat him like a robot for you to put input in to get output, and to put on the shelf when you're not using, rather than a living creature with feelings. If you are not willing to change your approach, the humane thing to do would be to find him a home where he can live closely with people who treat him kindly.

I'm even more concerned about the poodle you've also said you have...bullies tend to be more robust dogs mentally and physically. A poodle that's spending that much time crated alone and being handled this way is liable to be truly miserable.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

When he's not in a crate in your garage - OH BOO HOO. He sleeps in a temperature regulated crate, so abusive 

You care more about "results" (I put that in quotation marks because you're not actually training him to do a necessary job, it's just for your ego) than about the dog's well-being. - Yeah, If I didn't care about his well being, I'd never take him out of the kennel in the garage to hang out with my and my family, taking him for walks in the freezing fcking cold, and training him, which builds confidence. I don't know what "ego" You think I have. I'm just a person who trains their dogs tricks, and works on reactivity on a prong collar. (which alot of people do sucessfully, you'd know that if you looked into it, but your too close minded).

ou treat him like a robot for you to put input in to get output, and to put on the shelf when you're not using, rather than a living creature with feelings. I - Yeah, we don't spend any time together  its not like I spend an hour tops training him, while the rest of the time Im playing tug of war, cuddling him, and doing fun tricks (which he loves)


If you are not willing to change your approach, the humane thing to do would be to find him a home where he can live with people who treat him kindly. - They'd put him down, but thanks for the suggestion LMFAOOO


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I have actually done extensive research on reactivity as well as worked practically on it with dogs. Prong collars are contraindicated. You may be able to find bozos on Facebook that promote it, but you can also find bozos on Facebook that think 5G causes Covid and the president is a Reptilian. 

Also, since we're on the topic of tricks, your signature is wrong. It's just TKA, not TKN TKI TKA - the more advanced version of a title replaces the previous versions. (There are the capitalization and apostrophe issues, too, but this is a dog forum, not a grammar forum, I suppose.)


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> which alot of people do sucessfully, you'd know that if you looked into it, but your too close minded


I hope you're not referring to Upstate Canine Academy (which I know you mentioned in a different post), if you understand dog body language you will see how stressed the dogs he trains are.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I can also find Bozos who are purley R+ and have had dogs put down under their care because they refused to pick up a muzzle or a prong.
And I've seen those same dogs that R+ handlers couldn't handle that Balanced trainers rehabed... ha.

oh, I'm sorry you don't like how I wrote out the titles


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Sugar & Latte said:


> I hope you're not referring to Upstate Canine Academy


.. haha. You know there is more than one balanced trainer out there?


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

Deacon.dog said:


> And I've seen those same dogs that R+ handlers couldn't handle that Balanced trainers rehabed... ha.


The same could be said the other way around, there are bad trainers no matter the method.


Deacon.dog said:


> .. haha. You know there is more than one balanced trainer out there?


In one post you said you loved him so I was wondering if he's the kind of trainer you look up to and learn from.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I like Upsate Canine acadamy

punkassdog trainer

Stonnie Denis

Micheal Ellis

Robert Cabral

.. and more.


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## ClanWorgen (Feb 2, 2021)

I find it really interesting that there really is no argument directed at those in this thread who are in competitive sport.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Why would there be? In competative sports (unless something like IGP or IPO), tools are not allowed during a trial.

I know several clubs who use prong/e-collars/slip leads, etc in training, if thats what you mean


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Deacon.dog said:


> I can also find Bozos who are purley R+ and have had dogs put down under their care because they refused to pick up a muzzle or a prong.
> And I've seen those same dogs that R+ handlers couldn't handle that Balanced trainers rehabed... ha.
> 
> oh, I'm sorry you don't like how I wrote out the titles


I don't care how your write out the titles. I'm pointing it out firstly because I figured you'd want to know, and secondly because it illustrates your general unfamiliarity with many of the things you're posing as an expert about. 

I strongly encourage you to read up on two topics in human psychology: the dunning-kruger effect, and belief perseverance, and to really meditate on how these may be shaping your own thinking, then re-evaluate your approach to dog handling.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

I do know how to write them - I chose to write them how I wanted to. I never posed as an expert about ANYTHING. If i'm posing as a expert, so are you.

I strongly encourage you to reach out to a balanced trainer and ask "why". It becomes clear, why.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Deacon.dog said:


> I strongly encourage you to reach out to a balanced trainer and ask "why". It becomes clear, why.


I am very familiar with "balanced training." I used to use many of the methods advocated for by balanced trainers. I have seen much greater success, and much happier dogs, since leaving that approach behind. Your comebacks are not responsive. The people you're arguing with have largely been working with animals for a long time, and have done much, much more than you have both in sport and in practical applications of training. When you post things that are incorrect or ignorant, it's reasonable for those who know better, through research and experience, to respond so that those reading don't see poor advice and poor examples gliding by unchallenged.


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## ClanWorgen (Feb 2, 2021)

Deacon.dog said:


> Why would there be? In competative sports (unless something like IGP or IPO), tools are not allowed during a trial.
> 
> I know several clubs who use prong/e-collars/slip leads, etc in training, if thats what you mean


Yes, but I'd guess 99% of people training in those sports are using corrective tools during training. I think that it would just be more of a challenge to attack other people in here who are pro corrective tools, instead they chose to pick on you.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Yeah, its because they don't like me. Its fine. every time another balanced trainer steps in, they mostly ignore or agree to disagree.

Theres a million things they could doing, rather than saying I should give my dog away, or that I stab it. But eh, I think this is funny, I love the little excuses they come up with. Oh YoU StabBEd HiM, Oh HeS In A KennEl All DAy.

BS, but eh, its brightening up my day


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## Sugar & Latte (Oct 3, 2020)

I’m truly sorry you feel that way. Some of us are just trying to learn from your prospective.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

Like, two of you are. Other people would rather my dog be taken away from me. Which is comical, it really is.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

ClanWorgen said:


> Yes, but I'd guess 99% of people training in those sports are using corrective tools during training. I think that it would just be more of a challenge to attack other people in here who are pro corrective tools, instead they chose to pick on you.


I'm sure 3GSD4IPO is already well aware of what many posters think about the use of shock collars, etc., to compel a dog to be better at playing a game so a human can score points. These debates have come up many times before you arrived to insert your opinion.

For me, one difference is that while I disagree with much of what 3GSD4IPO says, I don't find her(?) uniformed or in denial. She knows what she's doing and is clear-eyed about it. Her posts aren't full of double-think.


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## Deacon.dog (Mar 8, 2020)

They are also way older than me, and much more capable of putting together their thoughts.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think we've moved well past any constructive discourse.


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