# Brad Pattison... now THIS guy is true abuse!!!



## xxxxdogdragoness

I have heard about this 'trainer' on a few other forums but I finally went to you tube & found strangely short clips of his sessions (hmmm wonder if he had something to do with this) but what I could see shocked me & he makes CM not seem so bad after all, it makes one wonder how this guy is still in business!


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## yappypappymom

(IMO) - He's a total ******. I wish he would find a new career. I don't like how he "handles" dogs at all.

ETA - the word I was trying to post really wasn't that bad at all, but, I stand by it. It now is a "mystery word" LOL


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

oh ye who know not the facebook drama lmao...


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## Borzoi

Oh, this is the guy from the show "At the End of my Leash"?
I have been into watching the Dog Whisperer, and now I always look for pet shows because I assume they'll be great. It was just a couple days ago that I watched this guys' show, and the memories of it have been disturbing me.
He went into a home with a dog scared of strangers, and it eventually peed, and then pooped itself, then he started yelling "Look at yourself, now your sliding around in your own poop, absolutely pathetic"... 
I was confused as to how he keeps it up, it's not a pleasant show to watch at all, and he's rude to the owners he talks with.


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## MissMutt

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> oh ye who know not the facebook drama lmao...


This needs repeating..


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## xxxxdogdragoness

See, I can't really find any REAL vids showing REAL examples of his cruelty that everyone's been tallking about, all that's left on you tube that I can find is little snippets not even aminute long.

Its not that I like seeing abuse or anything, I just want to not be in the dark anymore about this guy since I don't live in Canada where I can watch at the end of my leash.

See, I can't really find any REAL vids showing REAL examples of his cruelty that everyone's been tallking about, all that's left on you tube that I can find is little snippets not even aminute long.

Its not that I like seeing abuse or anything, I just want to not be in the dark anymore about this guy since I don't live in Canada where I can watch at the end of my leash.


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## Cracker

He's done a good job of getting many of the vids removed. 
I've seen vids of him hitting dogs, hanging dogs and basically just being an ahole to the people AND the dogs. His show is actually pretty well edited to remove much of the yanking about. But two episodes come to mind: One he HIT a golden retriever on the face when it went to jump on him and the other he teased a dachshund with a blanket til the dog grabbed it and started growling, then said the dog was aggressive and then smacked the dog to get the blanket away from him (the smack is hidden behind the coffee table..but if you replay the scene you can HEAR it).

In his new book only a couple of pages in he talks of how using food to train makes dogs food aggressive. He's an undereducated, cocky loser who knows nothing about LEARNING and a lot of how punishment works. It's sad.

He also threatens to sue anyone who disparages him publicly.


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## xxxxdogdragoness

Ah, I see. I believe that a dog should be repremended for certain exessively rude behaviors (stealing food, jumping on people & such) but I go no further then a stern stare down & a firm no, I have never jerked a dog around by the leash, or ever dreamed of doing any of the things that he does EVER he is a maniac that needs to be stoped & prosecuted for animal cruelty.

I know nothing of this facebook business either only hearsay. Something about him threatening to sue people who say negitive things about him or something.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Cracker said:


> He also threatens to sue anyone who disparages him publicly.


*raises hand*


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## xxxxdogdragoness

Zim- did you get sued or threatened by this guy for speaking out? He technically can't say anything because as a free human you have a right to your opinion!! I would tell him to stick that in his pipe & smoke it.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

dogdragoness said:


> Zim- did you get sued or threatened by this guy for speaking out? He technically can't say anything because as a free human you have a right to your opinion!! I would tell him to stick that in his pipe & smoke it.


no..he cant do anything about it because of the DMCA and a new law that passed not too long ago.

I'ziz in America. He's a Canuck(sorry canadians..i love you guys and your Tim Horton's and alcohol serving strip clubs but BP is a canuck.). he can whine all he wants.

search his name on the forum. see what you come up with. i dont want to get into it right now.


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## xxxxdogdragoness

Ok Zim, will do. No explination needed. I'm born & bred USA as well & though I love my neighbors to the north who were so very hospitible during the olympics, probably one of the most hospitible countries I have ever seen. I also agree that BP is a bleedin' lousy excuse for a trainer. also lol.


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## Xeph

> I also agree that BP is a bleedin' lousy excuse for a *human being*


I fixed it


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## Pai

Here are some vids of him still on Youtube:
















There's a reason he doesn't allow filming at his 'sessions' anymore.

For all that I disagree strongly with CM's methods, I truly believe that Cesar likes dogs and thinks he's doing the right thing. I get none of that from Brad -- it's all negativity and nastiness both towards the owners and the animals. And I think that CM's popularization of 'physical corrections' on TV is what allows Brad to get away with his stuff.


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## MissMutt

I had a conversation with him a while ago through Facebook messaging (weird, I know).



> S.S. June 14 at 10:18pm
> Why are you so afraid of those who train differently from you and those who publicly express their dislike of your methods? Why do you make no mention of the proven principles of classical and operant conditioning when you talk about your methodologies in dog training? Do you have something to hide? If you do, it's going to come out sooner or later. And, as you might have read in the group that you so unfairly got removed from Facebook, I will do everything in my power to direct people towards dog training that is based in science rather than hearsay, dog training that is humane rather than physical, and dog training that emphasizes having a relationship with your dog rather than simply being "alpha" over them.
> 
> Rather than simply delete this message and the many others that I'm sure you get, I wish you'd explain yourself in a public forum rather than hide behind your fame, your bogus law threats, and your deletion of any content that you do not find appealing. It's cowardly, at best, dishonest and dangerous at worst.





> B.P. June 14 at 11:43pm Report
> Thank you Samantha for being the first person to ask me a direct question. I would love to speak with you, but may I ask you a question?
> How can we have a civil conversation when you already call me names?
> If you had any clue of who I am as a person and what I know then it is doubtful you would be so rude.
> Leave your phone number and I will call you. I do not engage in lies or arguements. Come with out an attitude and we will have a civil conversation.
> 
> Cheers Brad Pattison





> S.S. June 15 at 12:15am
> Brad,
> 
> I refuse to give out personal information beyond this for privacy reasons, but I would be more than happy to speak with you here.
> 
> You have to understand that your actions (deleting Facebook groups, YouTube videos, et cetera) are all I have to go by. I did not create the group which called you a "jerk," and can see why you might be offended by such a statement. In fact, I joined that group because it seemed to be the most popular, without any regard as to what it was called.
> 
> Perhaps I should clarify my position: I have no idea who you are as a person, nor do I care, nor will I make any judgements about you personally. If I have done so, I do apologize.
> 
> But, at the same time, from what I've seen of your dog training methods, I am thoroughly unimpressed. I WILL make judgements about your training methods.
> 
> Just as you feel it is rude for people to call you names, I feel it is rude for you to make assumptions about training techniques that differ from your own. You speak so often of people "bribing" their dogs with treats, for example. Well, I consider myself a proficient trainer who does happen to use reward-based methods. I take it personally. For you to basically denounce all "treat-trainers" as permissive and inefficient, you reveal a serious lack of knowledge in that area. You attempt to take away from the accomplishments of people like me, who have used such methods to not only train their dogs, but also help manage their dogs' behavior issues. My dog was a rescue from Georgia who used to flee at the sight of a plastic bag blowing in the wind. She now is titled in two different performance sports and training at a very high level.
> 
> You talk about dogs getting fat, aggressive, and demanding, by using treats. You do not acknowledge that self-control must be taught to dogs who are trained using rewards, nor do you acknowledge that low-fat, tiny food rewards are perfectly acceptable. Sometimes, I even use kibble. Despite my use of treats, my dog is at a low-normal body weight (for the sake of her agility career), is well-behaved, and does not require the use of constant treats now that the behaviors have been reinforced. If you are all about "natural" dog training, why not make use of the natural, symbiotic relationship by which dogs came to humans originally? We provide them food, shelter; they provide us companionship, protection, among many other things.
> 
> I have said before in public forums that I do not have any qualms with correction-based training so long as the trainer understands the science behind the methods and is fair with their corrections. So far, I will honestly say that you have not convinced me that you possess either of these. Perhaps you can explain otherwise to me.
> 
> I can continue highlighting the inaccuracies that I've heard you say regarding reward-based training, among other things, but I'm not sure how far this is going to get me. So, I suppose that all I can say is that my initial questions still stand:
> 
> - Why are you so afraid of those who train differently from you and those who publicly express their dislike of your methods?
> 
> - Why do you make no mention of the proven principles of classical and operant conditioning when you talk about your methodologies in dog training?
> 
> Signed,
> Samantha





> S.S. July 3 at 3:44pm
> A response would have been nice.





> B.P. July 3 at 5:40pm Report
> Why?
> Sent via Facebook Mobile





> S.S. July 3 at 9:49pm
> Why not?


I think I have screenshots of this around somewhere as well.

A good dog trainer, even if they DIDN'T want to talk to me, wouldn't have evaded my accusations of knowing nothing about basic learning principles. They would have, at least, told me to shut up and go read certain literature, etc. Instead, this creepster asked me for my phone number. Yeah. Probably to try to get my personal info and slap me with a lawsuit, but I wasn't stupid enough to bite..


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## KBLover

He's probably the only person in the world I would bite because he'd just yank Wally around like a doll, so I'd have to bite him in his place.

After all, I'm alpha, right? Alphas protect their pack. 

So I'd bite him in junk, then pee on his head to put an exclamation point on my dominance. Then tell Wally "go potty" and hope he sees the hair on BP's head as a nice patch of grass.


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## Cracker

Everytime I see these vids I just want to throw up. 
Do you notice the total silence from the people when he smacks that dog after telling the owner he's annoyed at him/her? And the yelp and the appeasement/stress behaviours of the husky in the back of the shot. 

If I ever saw this in person, he'd have to deal with me..and it would NOT be pretty. 

MM, I think you worded your messages to him very well. He's an inarticulate ahole to not even REPLY to your position and questions. He's afraid because he knows he would be torn to pieces by anyone with any knowledge of training and learning theory, regardless of the methods they use.


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## sassafras

I'm sure he'll get back to you as soon as he's done reading the Wikipedia entries on operant and classical conditioning.


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## MissMutt

I'm not holding my breath - that all transpired 6 months ago


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## sassafras

Well he's a slow reader.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

there's some stuff going on with my facebook group and good ol' braddy boy. if anyone wants to join and check it out, pm me and ill link and accept you to the group.

i dont really mess with brad anymore. but i keep tabs with some people who do.


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## yappypappymom

Cracker said:


> MM, I think you worded your messages to him very well. He's an inarticulate ahole to not even REPLY to your position and questions. He's afraid because he knows he would be torn to pieces by anyone with any knowledge of training and learning theory, regardless of the methods they use.


HEY YOU!! Get outta my brain!! I was thinking the SAME thing!! LOL


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## RedyreRottweilers

I have a dog he could try to "train". A couple in fact, that would be downright offended if he went to strike or yell at them or me.

How sad for the dogs that someone like this has ANY chance to inflict his "training" on them.


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## LazyGRanch713

Seriously, I can't stomach the guy. Not only his methods, but the way he carries himself reeks of narcissism. I can handle CM to a degree (and I think his more current episodes can be quite good) but even CM's early episodes weren't nearly as bad as this guy. CM seems to be able to evolve and take critisism where BP can obviously not.


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## Cracker

CM is a zen kindof guy, friendly and caring and intuitive (regardless of what I think of his methods). Brad is, like you say, a narcisssistic testosterone machine. The kind that is a dirty fighter too. There aren't that many people in this world that I actively dislike, but he is on the list.


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## TomTheDog

Talk about a guy who needs a taste of his own medicine! Somebody should put him on a leash and then yank him around for no apparent reason.


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## MissMutt

Couple more..






Watch this "expert" break up a dog fight... after bringing a dog into the backyard of a known aggressive dog.. and then trying to reason with the dog by telling her "That's not the right way to say hello!!!" ...






I don't bother much with him anymore, either. I used to be involved in the Facebook groups to some extent, though.


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## toblerone

wow... just wow, this guy has got to have something wrong to do this kind of stuff. I want to know who allows someone to do this to their dog. On one hand I guess it could be good marketing on his part, but I think just seeing him 'take' hold of a lead and I know something would be off and would be gone. Maybe people are swayed by his way of speaking with the "that is not how you saw hello" kind of aggressive yet humanizing method of talking to a dog. This is all just disgusting. Even my old school southern father never trained a dog like this. The only time such violence may have been used was when a dog was going for a child, but that's a whole different ball of wax.

If I had to choose one show for lay people to get dog training advice from, right now CM would be the much better choice. He still practices some flooding, but only initially. He's gone pretty zen (in a very good way) using aromatherapy and acupuncture. I don't even want this Pattison guy on the same block as my dog, heck even in the same town and I'd be nervous!


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## TStafford

I'm really shocked that he hasn't been attacked by a dog or a person yet (if he hasn't already, this is the first i've heard of this guy). Porter would have come unglued if someone had done any of that stuff to him and god forbid they yell at me in front of him. He's a really loving, friendly dog untill he feels someone is putting me in danger (and to him attacking him is the same as attacking me). Also if a trainer did that to my dog there is no way I would just stand there. I also shocked that people still go to him. All you have to do is look at one video and you can see he's a monster.


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## MissMutt

> He's gone pretty zen (in a very good way) using aromatherapy and acupuncture.


You mean the guy who was all about natural and instinctive dog training and wolf pack structure and the whole nose-ears-eyes business is now actually using aromatherapy and acupuncture to help dogs? Seriously?

Cesar is just full of surprises.. I don't like him, but I think it does say something about him that he's used a wide array of things on his show. I don't think he knows a thing about classical or operant conditioning and how they interact with each other, nor do I think having a conversation with him would be anything more than him throwing around unfalsifiable-type statements, but I will give him credit for experimenting with his methods.


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## Xeph

I give Cesar credit for at least caring about his clients and the dog. I don't agree with his methods either, but HE truly wants to help. Pattinson is overcompensating for everything he lacks (a good personality, a soul, a....well, you get the point).

If Pattinson treated Strauss or Ranger this way, he'd get bitten. If he treated Mirada that way, I'd have a ruined dog.


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## TStafford

Oh crap, I do know who he is. He had some show on animal planet awhile back. I always hated that little jerk. He's so rude and doesn't have the first clue what he's doing.


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## toblerone

MissMutt said:


> You mean the guy who was all about natural and instinctive dog training and wolf pack structure and the whole nose-ears-eyes business is now actually using aromatherapy and acupuncture to help dogs? Seriously?


Yep, his most recent episode on hulu begins with a koolie named Cobar who was terrified of squeaky toys (made worse by the fact that the other dogs in the house loved them and her owner designed the toys and had boxes of squeaky plushie toys everywhere!) He flooded her a bit in the beginning (I think in an attempt to gauge the situation) but then went into aromatherapy using lavender to calm her and when that didn't completely work brought in an acupuncturist to help relieve more stress. There was moment where he sort of forced her down, not an alpha roll and not in a forceful way, more of an insistence that she should lay quietly instead of pacing and freaking out all over the house. 

There are still a good number of techniques that he uses that I wouldn't use, but its really much better than the early episodes with pack-this and alpha-that. Overall if someone were to base training off of his recent episodes the dog probably wouldn't be a quivering mess. Unlike Pattison who if he came within 20 feet of my sensitive Toby would probably cause a massive doggy meltdown and one exceedingly angry owner.


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## MissMutt

I'd never let Cesar even get near my dog. Honestly, I don't think I'd let any TV dog trainer work with my dog (that's including Stilwell, whose methods I don't take much objection to). I think TV dog training speaks volumes about the ugly side of human nature - we like easy, quick fixes, without putting any thought in to what's actually being done. Getting dog training from a TV is about as effective of getting world news from a late night comedy show. You get distorted bits and pieces but not the whole picture.


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## Pai

The clip with the two dogs in the backyard... I think Brad was aping what Cesar sometimes does (brings one of his bombproof dogs into a situation), but since he doesn't actually know why or how Cesar makes that work, he just ends up with a fight.


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## KBLover

MissMutt said:


> I think TV dog training speaks volumes about the ugly side of human nature - we like easy, quick fixes, without putting any thought in to what's actually being done. Getting dog training from a TV is about as effective of getting world news from a late night comedy show. You get distorted bits and pieces but not the whole picture.


Agreed.

The only dog training show I would like is one where it's unedited and would play out in a series of episodes with one dog (or a few dogs that are the focus of a whole season, and, again, unedited) and with a trainer that's knowledgeable in conditioning and how to use it.

Other than that, TV training shows are just one step up from "reality" shows where you see all the "good stuff" miss all the "boring stuff and miscues". Only improvement is that it's likely not staged/set up from the start.


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## Elana55

he acts like he is mad at the dog.. all the time.. 

Awful. I agree with Cracker.. and I have a shorter fuse. Of course, the FIRST stupidity is the owner that watches this and then hands this guy the leash to THEIR dog....


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## LazyGRanch713

Cracker said:


> CM is a zen kindof guy, friendly and caring and intuitive (regardless of what I think of his methods). Brad is, like you say, a narcisssistic testosterone machine. The kind that is a dirty fighter too. There aren't that many people in this world that I actively dislike, but he is on the list.


I couldn't agree more. That, and I really honestly think CM is a natural handler. I don't buy all his methods and ideas, but I know he didn't "invent" them, but I think I could actually get along with him IRL because he seems open to change. Watch a show from the first season and then another show that's newer, and you can see there's a difference there. I think I'm more forgiving of CM than some people because I started out thinking leash pops and praise were the *only* way to train a dog, and learned new methods slowly but surely. I respect open mindedness and a willingness to try new things rather than simply the methods used, kwim?
I know some compulsion based trainers IRL, and that's fine if that's how they choose to train. But be FAIR is all I ask. (Squealing over your dog when he jumps up because you happen to be in a good mood, and then kneeing the dog the next day because you're in a bad mood is the kind of crap I can't stand.)


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## Cracker

I hadn't seen the vid of the dogfight, obviously it's from an episode of his show rather than one of this seminars. I can't believe any dog trainer would put their dog (or anyone else's) at risk of injury (bomb proof or not) like this. No leashes, no setup , no neutral environment...just throw your dog in with one who is known to be aggressive AND IN HIS OWN BACKYARD. And with kids present, no less. 

And he grabs both dogs by their collars. This is NOT how to safely stop a dogfight. 

I have seen CM introduce aggressive dogs to his dogs, but they have been invariably under some leash control. I feel very badly for Brad's dogs.


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## LazyGRanch713

Xeph said:


> I give Cesar credit for at least caring about his clients and the dog. I don't agree with his methods either, but HE truly wants to help. * Pattinson is overcompensating for everything he lacks (a good personality, a soul, a....well, you get the point).*
> 
> If Pattinson treated Strauss or Ranger this way, he'd get bitten. If he treated Mirada that way, I'd have a ruined dog.


LOL at bolded...
He would get bitten by Auz, and Tag and Dude would be ruined. And then the poor sap would be dead. And I would be in jail. And, and, and...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest

I always say this, but having a guy like him try to train one of my dogs is a huge fantasy of mine. But it kind of deflates because I would not put my dogs in harms way (and I have no question he would willingly harm one of them.) He would be afforded with a bite from everyone except Magpie. He would be afforded with a lot worse from me.


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## sassafras

I'm pretty sure Pip would go into a catatonic state if he were "trained" this way and Maisy would go crazy trying everything she could think of to appease him. I might bite him, though.


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## Elana55

sassafras said:


> I'm pretty sure Pip would go into a catatonic state if he were "trained" this way and Maisy would go crazy trying everything she could think of to appease him. I might bite him, though.


I would do more than bite him. I would insure he never procreated.....


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## becksterorange

sassafras said:


> I'm pretty sure Pip would go into a catatonic state if he were "trained" this way and Maisy would go crazy trying everything she could think of to appease him. I might bite him, though.


From the few snippets I saw, I don't think that this guy can be appeased. I couldn't believe my eyes. I would never even let this guy look at my dog.


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## Inga

For people even to compare CM to Brad is too much. Though I may not agree with all of Cesar's training (alpha crap) I would certainly trust him to take my dogs for a walk and handle them. I think Cesar actually loves dogs. I think he got famous training very old school methods but I also see that he is a work in progress and more then willing to learn and try new school methods. People learn as they go the smart ones put that learning into practice like Cesar. Brad on the other hand, I just don't get. It is like the show is about animal cruelty and foolish people line up to have him treat their dogs that way. Why? How much of that does a person have to witness before they say "heaven's NO!" I know I saw a 1 minute video and had already decided their is no way this man would be allowed near my dogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

the ONLY old school style trainer that can handle my dogs is Wvasko. period.


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## Elana55

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the ONLY old school style trainer that can handle my dogs is Wvasko. period.


Is this because the world was flat until WVasko looked at it and it rolled into a ball? (sorry.. that other thread just kills me... and the thought of alpha rolling the whole world with a look... Sorry... ound


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Elana55 said:


> Is this because the world was flat until WVasko looked at it and it rolled into a ball? (sorry.. that other thread just kills me... and the thought of alpha rolling the whole world with a look... Sorry... ound


lol. maybe.

seriously though its because i dont trust TV trainers. i dont think we're seeing everything. so no i wouldnt trust Milan with any dog of mine. but ive talked to Wvasko enough that i know he's not insane(which i think most if not all celebrities automatically qualify as insane lol)

Pattison on the other hand can **** ** ****. nuff said lol.


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## Elana55

Well, I have to agree with you on the celeb thing. Funny thing is that when a trainer gains an audience he/she sometimes gets a puffed up ego. The dogs still act like dogs but the trainer stops acting like a trainer and sometimes attempts to become an Icon. 

Besides, we KNOW WVasko made the world round.. but the rest of 'em can't say that.


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## wvasko

Trust me if I had any of these powers, the New England Patriots would have been transported to Mars about an hour ago because they are beating up my Bears team severely.


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## Elana55

If the Bears knew of your powers (maybe you should send the head coach a link to that thread) they would hire you full time. One look from WVasko at the opposing team and they would all put on Ballerina Skirts and go home. 

Better yet, go and look at Brad Pattison and shrink him into a violet..... :rockon:


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## MusherChic

MissMutt said:


> I had a conversation with him a while ago through Facebook messaging (weird, I know).
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I have screenshots of this around somewhere as well.
> 
> A good dog trainer, even if they DIDN'T want to talk to me, wouldn't have evaded my accusations of knowing nothing about basic learning principles. They would have, at least, told me to shut up and go read certain literature, etc. Instead, this creepster asked me for my phone number. Yeah. Probably to try to get my personal info and slap me with a lawsuit, but I wasn't stupid enough to bite..


I have never actually heard of this trainer but from this conversation that you had with him, he definitely has something to hide. You explained yourself very well and IMO weren't rude at all. You were firm and forward ( which is totally acceptable) but not rude like he said. 

So I took a look at this guy's website( or at least the first one that came up on Google) and one thing that really bothered me is no where on his site did I find a page or a description on how he trains and why. There were a few tips here and there but nothing really describing his training methods. I see a lot of advertising his credentials and his products. It looks to me like it's all about the money!! :suspicious:


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## KBLover

MusherChic said:


> There were a few tips here and there but nothing really describing his training methods.


Well, if I thought training with treats as rewards automatically made a dog food aggressive, I don't think I'd divulge much of my "knowledge" either...


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## Cracker

He's not going to give any information for free...he has a book to sell.


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## LazyGRanch713

KBLover said:


> Well, if I thought training with treats as rewards automatically made a dog food aggressive, I don't think I'd divulge much of my "knowledge" either...


On his website under his "tips" (@@) it says "don't make a dog sit for his dinner, this is just like food training because your dog is sitting for the food and not for you". Seriously? LOL!!
And yes, Wvasko could handle my dogs as well. If BP ever showed up there, Wvasko could vaporize him with a single raised eyebrow


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## Elana55

Cracker said:


> He's not going to give any information for free...he has a book to sell.


I also have a Bridge in Brooklyn for sale.....


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## LazyGRanch713

Cracker said:


> He's not going to give any information for free...he has a book to sell.


Good, we like to keep papers in stock for the dogs to pee on if the weather gets bad


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## petpeeve

KBLover said:


> So I'd bite him in junk, then pee on his head to put an exclamation point on my dominance. Then tell Wally "go potty" and *hope he sees the hair on BP's head as a nice patch of grass*.


Well, there musta been a drought cause there certainly ain't too much grass to be had in that locale. His head looks kinda like a post-apocalyptic wasteland, with the surviving bits o' leftover vegetation poking out here and there. 

And PLEASE ... somebody tell the guy, that when he wears a leather jacket over top, to tuck his shirt in underneath ! ... :nono: very unprofessional and seriously UNCOOL, imo 

just sayin' ..


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## wvasko

LazyGRanch713 said:


> On his website under his "tips" (@@) it says "don't make a dog sit for his dinner, this is just like food training because your dog is sitting for the food and not for you". Seriously? LOL!!
> And yes, Wvasko could handle my dogs as well. If BP ever showed up there, Wvasko could vaporize him with a single raised eyebrow


Well I hope everybody that says I can/could-train/handle their dogs don't all send them at same time. I personally think after reading 2 years of replies none of you need my help just keep doin what you're doin. Dogs that are trained properly by family etc may take longer but produce something that a pro can't because of the love involved in the finished product. A dog trained by a pro when done the dog will listen/respect him/her and if they're a very good trainer dog may even like them. I always tell owners that they have a big weapon I don't have, it's called bond. Sorry did not mean to get on a soap box and preach stuff.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness

I'm telling you the more I hear sbout this guy the more I lose respect for him. I googled him but I can't find a real offical website so far, I'll try again. There is a happy medium I believe btw purely positive ttraining & people like BP. 

Yes I believe that training should be positive & fun, but I also believe that there should be adversives for undesired behavior: for example, when we are working with the horses in the round pen, Izze is allowed to be present but she under no circumstances is allowed to bark, run around the round pen & chase the horses in any way. If she does this after she is told to stop, she is removed from the situation & made to lay down outside the gate where the round pen & not allowed to return... PERIOD. I don't have to slap her on the snout or wrap her around a tree to accomplish this.

I guess that's what makes me sick about BP is there is a more kind way to show the dog you riun the show without being demeening or being brutal about it.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

I'll send Jonas. Jonas would handle wvasko. xD


----------



## wvasko

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I'll send Jonas. Jonas would handle wvasko. xD


Sure, pick on the old guy. Oh and wife says please send Jonas as she definitely wants/needs me to be handled properly or not, she says just get it done


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

wvasko said:


> Sure, pick on the old guy. Oh and wife says please send Jonas as she definitely wants/needs me to be handled properly or not, she says just get it done


Oh, you know I have a special spot in my heart and on my sun porch for potential grandpas.


----------



## KBLover

LazyGRanch713 said:


> On his website under his "tips" (@@) it says "don't make a dog sit for his dinner, this is just like food training because your dog is sitting for the food and not for you". Seriously? LOL!!



Yeah, talk about missing a great chance to use a motivator. 

Dog is hungry, you hold this nice batch of food. You could make him sit 100 times, giving him one kibble each time, and he gets his dinner AND you've just taught a lesson with _100 repetitions_ with the dog highly motivated by the reward with the context being very likely to be constant (you're always going to hold the dog's food).

Le sigh. Just thinking about the the lost latent learning as he eats and then sleeps after he eats...it makes me want to scream.


----------



## Elana55

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Oh, you know I have a special spot in my heart and on my sun porch for potential grandpas.


BE CAREFUL WVasko... I think her porch is in some foresaken spot like New Hampshire or Michigan...... NOT HI..... or Fiji....


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

Elana55 said:


> BE CAREFUL WVasko... I think her porch is in some foresaken spot like New Hampshire or Michigan...... NOT HI..... or Fiji....


Don't ruin this for me! xD


----------



## wvasko

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Don't ruin this for me! xD


I thought all this time that Kalamazoo Michigan was code for Maui HI. Oh well another dream dashed on the rocks of life. thank you Elana.


----------



## Elana55

I have been working on my retirement plan (the Lotto). When I win it I will provide the Maui Porch and you and your wife and TWAB can all sit on the porch.

but NOT Brad Pattison. Nosireebob... he gets to play in the ocean attracting sharks.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

Well, come on, I will be moving to Texas if that is any better than Michigan for ya.


----------



## wvasko

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Well, come on, I will be moving to Texas if that is any better than Michigan for ya.


Woulda, coulda, shoulda, move 1st and then pictures are necessary. But I got to admit if the lotto is won even if we're in Texas, Hawaii calls are strong and one day the porch might be light a couple people. I know it's very wishy-washy but I never promised a rose garden.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

wvasko said:


> Woulda, coulda, shoulda, move 1st and then pictures are necessary. But I got to admit if the lotto is won even if we're in Texas, Hawaii calls are strong and one day the porch might be light a couple people. I know it's very wishy-washy but I never promised a rose garden.


On my porch, people stay forever and smoke pipes. General rule.


----------



## Elana55

gorilla glue on the rocker seats again, huh?


----------



## LazyGRanch713

dogdragoness said:


> I'm telling you the more I hear sbout this guy the more I lose respect for him. I googled him but I can't find a real offical website so far, I'll try again. There is a happy medium I believe btw purely positive ttraining & people like BP.
> 
> Yes I believe that training should be positive & fun, but I also believe that there should be adversives for undesired behavior: for example, when we are working with the horses in the round pen, Izze is allowed to be present but she under no circumstances is allowed to bark, run around the round pen & chase the horses in any way. If she does this after she is told to stop, she is removed from the situation & made to lay down outside the gate where the round pen & not allowed to return... PERIOD. I don't have to slap her on the snout or wrap her around a tree to accomplish this.
> 
> I guess that's what makes me sick about BP is there is a more kind way to show the dog you riun the show without being demeening or being brutal about it.


I consider myself a positive trainer. I use clickers, food, and whatever the dog finds fun and rewarding. I get really sick of people (not you, specifically dragoness) thinking positive = permissive. I am nicnamed the Warden because I don't put up with ANY bullcrap. But when training something new or acclimating my dog to something they find a bit scary, using confidence building can work wonders. My dogs understand (and listen) to no's and knock it off's. 
I also use aversives, mainly for real life stuff and in order to suppress whatever I'm trying to get my dogs to stop so I can train a rewardable behavior instead. (Jean Donaldson described this beautifully in The Culture Clash). For things like jumping up (even a happy pappy bounce could knock my grandmother down), and door charging (it's not an alpha thing, it's making sure the GSD doesn't tromp over the small dogs going out the door), and the like. 
When it comes to fun and games, like agility and rally, I use as little aversives as possible. If my dog misses a jump, or breaks a startline stay, or is crooked in front position, it's not the end of the universe and it's not a life threatening emergency. I signed my dogs up for these games, and that's what they are--games--and it was me who volunteered them to participate. I've got nothing against people who train with aversives as long as they're consistent and fair. If it works, it's worth it. What I can't stomach is the BP's and wanna-be's of the world who have no understanding on how living things learn and use aversives like a 6 year old uses the first swear word they learned. JM2C.



wvasko said:


> Woulda, coulda, shoulda, move 1st and then pictures are necessary. But I got to admit if the lotto is won even if we're in Texas, Hawaii calls are strong and one day the porch might be light a couple people. I know it's very wishy-washy but I never promised a rose garden.


You guys are cracking me up, lol!


----------



## KBLover

Elana55 said:


> gorilla glue on the rocker seats again, huh?


And cement "shoes" just for extra security.

You can never be too careful after all. Can't have people escaping...I mean leaving.


----------



## Inga

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> seriously though its because i dont trust TV trainers. i dont think we're seeing everything. so no i wouldnt trust Milan with any dog of mine. .


Just to be clear, I wouldn't allow Cesar to train my dogs, as there would never be a need. I would let him touch my dogs as I do not see him as cruel. If Brad got even close to my dogs however, there would be a new video posted on Youtube and It wouldn't be pretty.


----------



## Cracker

KBLover said:


> And cement "shoes" just for extra security.
> 
> You can never be too careful after all. Can't have people escaping...I mean leaving.


Cue the "Hotel California".. LOL


----------



## Inga

Elana55 said:


> I have been working on my retirement plan (the Lotto). When I win it I will provide the Maui Porch and you and your wife and TWAB can all sit on the porch.
> 
> but NOT Brad Pattison. Nosireebob... he gets to play in the ocean attracting sharks.


This offer could apply if I win the lotto as well if Elana would include a spot on her Hawaiian sun porch for me. Also, we will be needing some volunteers to pour out the chum-line around BP


----------



## wvasko

KBLover said:


> And cement "shoes" just for extra security.
> 
> You can never be too careful after all. Can't have people escaping...I mean leaving.


et tu KB, Wally, I thought you had control of PC.



> This offer could apply if I win the lotto as well if Elana would include a spot on her Hawaiian sun porch for me. Also, we will be needing some volunteers to pour out the chum-line around BP


Well as the Patriarch figure of this newly formed Hawaiian tribe it's a man's job at least that's old school thinking, I will volunteer to do the chumming. (my wife would make me do it anyway)


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

My boyfriend will be coming along, too, to be fair. He could do all the man work. We don't have time with the pipe smoking we have to do.


----------



## jiml

He was on for a short time around here. Seemed like he was passing him self off as a relationship expert that would lecture people on how their dogs were misbehaving because they needed to get laid.


----------



## RBark

jiml said:


> He was on for a short time around here. Seemed like he was passing him self off as a relationship expert that would lecture people on how their dogs were misbehaving because they needed to get laid.


*attempts to use that excuse on his GF*
*gets murdered*


----------



## KBLover

wvasko said:


> et tu KB, Wally, I thought you had control of PC.


Sorry, but I haven't taught him how to type. He tries to use the mouse by pawing it and poking it with his nose. He actually turned my PS3 on once because he pawed it that hard (it has a touch switch)

But...until they make a keyboard that accommodates dog paws...he's out of luck. Everything would be like: koiderfiu4rtiugbdf89sxzfcdjkiik and that just won't work.



jiml said:


> He was on for a short time around here. Seemed like he was passing him self off as a relationship expert that would lecture people on how their dogs were misbehaving because they needed to get laid.



Need some spice in the romance department?

Need some 'assistance' at the crucial moment?

Get a bad dog. Nothing cures romance problems like a bad dog. You can help a poor dog and get your love life in order at the same time! How you can say no?!


----------



## wvasko

> Originally Posted by jiml View Post
> He was on for a short time around here. Seemed like he was passing him self off as a relationship expert that would lecture people on how their dogs were misbehaving because they needed to get laid.


I'm a tad confused nothing new though, Was BP claiming that the owners need to get laid or as a dog expert claiming that if dogs got laid they would become good dogs.



> Sorry, but I haven't taught him how to type. He tries to use the mouse by pawing it and poking it with his nose. He actually turned my PS3 on once because he pawed it that hard (it has a touch switch)


Well excuse me, I assumed that if somebody was wedged into "The Wally's" mind it would be a no-brainer for Wally to have the wedged one do the typing for him.


----------



## KBLover

wvasko said:


> Well excuse me, I assumed that if somebody was wedged into "The Wally's" mind it would be a no-brainer for Wally to have the wedged one do the typing for him.



Yeah, well - I do have to maintain SOME measure of my own identity and consciousness 

Otherwise, we'd be into some kind of mind-linked entity or something like in a Sci-Fi movie.


----------



## wvasko

KBLover said:


> Yeah, well - I do have to maintain SOME measure of my own identity and consciousness
> 
> Otherwise, we'd be into some kind of mind-linked entity or something like in a Sci-Fi movie.


Well that sounds good, but with a good mind meld from "The Wally" I really don't believe you would know what's happening, he would make you think you have some control, but in reality who really knows. I'm just sayin'.........:doh:


----------



## Julesypop

Hi all, this is my first post in DogForums!! Happy to be a new member. I was actually looking into a question about my own dog's behavior, but I stumbled upon this thread and I couldn't help but post a reply.
First, I have to say that Cesar Millan is a god. I know that sometimes on his show his methods seem harsh and inhumane, but his focus is on communication with dogs, not necessarily training them. He wants people to be able to understand what their dogs are telling them and vice versa. His ideas about exercising with dogs are spot on. In my experience, the best way to get to know a dog is to go on a jog or walk with it. I will concede, that the "psychology" he uses is not real psychology. Rather, it is based on his vast experiences with dogs and his own Theory of the Dog's Mind (psychology is a science and as a scientific discipline it requires research and consensus-Cesar's methods cannot be called scientific, therefore it is not psychology). He has a lot of experience with dogs in groups and this is where his expertise is valuable. He understands the social functions of a dog pack and he employs his techniques with a combination of empathy, sensitivity, and strict discipline (I have a feeling that's how he raises his kids too-- South Park anybody--which is actually the recommended parenting style right now [high is structure, high in responsiveness]). Communication (between dogs and humans or humans and humans) is essential for social functioning. His ideas and techniques are useful tools for owners who are looking to better communicate with their dogs. Cesar's demeanor is strikingly calm and collected, even when he is dealing with difficult situations (wolf hybrids-that episode was intense). His outlook on life is admirable, regardless of how you think he deals with dogs. (obviously, somebody has a man-crush on CM, lets just put that on the table)

Before stumbling upon this website, I had never heard of Brad Pattison. Boy am I glad that I saw this stuff. My only response is, "wow, how'd did this guy get a TV show." It looks like he watched a million episodes of Dog Whisperer with the sound off. Brad tries to use the corrective techniques of Cesar but not a word of Cesar's mentality has crept into his mind. Cesar is constantly preaching balance and calm assertiveness, claiming that a strong calm "energy" can be read by the dog (I find the parallels between demeanor in successful human social interaction and human-dog social interaction to be more than coincidental). Brad appears to employ neither, and simply tries to be more aggressive than the dog. 

Now for my analysis of Brad Pattison (this is a somewhat incomplete assessment of the man, based on only brief clips of his interactions). As several people alluded to earlier, he appears to have narcissistic personality disorder. My major issue with personality psychology is that it seems to imply an inborn characteristic that can't be changed (although, that is not entirely true, that's the way it is often understood). I would rather contend, that the man suffers from major depression-- not uncommon for middle aged men in Western Culture. A combination of natural decreases in testosterone, coupled with the mental stress of competing with younger more virile men for resources are likely the cause. His depression manifests itself as aggression (this is an extremely juvenile way to deal with mental angst, but as men in our society, it is the only thing acceptable). He is aggressive to the dogs, he is aggressive to their owners, he is aggressive to people that address him on facebook. Cesar (and anyone with their head out their @##) would take one look at this guy and be able to tell you that he is not "balanced, calm and assertive." This is likely the route of his depression, of course this is all speculation based on his interactions in a couple of youtube videos. 
My problem is not with Brad Pattison. The individual is merely the product of his or her environment and should not be blamed. However, he should be stopped. He cannot continue to "train" dogs in the manner that he does. The combination of mental illness (I say illness because it has the implication of improvement) and a fundamental misunderstanding of the techniques that he is using should set off alarms in anyone's head. My problem is with the TV company that bought his show agreed to air it (are you f-in kidding me, this guy is a nut case). I can only hope that the show gets cancelled and he gets therapy. 

To those of you who actually read my post, thank you. I'm sorry it is so long.


----------



## KBLover

wvasko said:


> Well that sounds good, but with a good mind meld from "The Wally" I really don't believe you would know what's happening, he would make you think you have some control, but in reality who really knows. I'm just sayin'.........:doh:



Perhaps he's not good enough yet.

After all, most of his time was spent trying to not be afraid of his own shadow with just feedback from me if he was doing it right. He's 3 1/2, and 2 of those years were him being fearful. 

So maybe by this time next year, he'll be good enough and my location will say "Trapped in Wally's Universe" or something.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Julesypop said:


> Hi all, this is my first post in DogForums!! Happy to be a new member. I was actually looking into a question about my own dog's behavior, but I stumbled upon this thread and I couldn't help but post a reply.
> First, I have to say that Cesar Millan is a god. I know that sometimes on his show his methods seem harsh and inhumane, but his focus is on communication with dogs, not necessarily training them. He wants people to be able to understand what their dogs are telling them and vice versa. His ideas about exercising with dogs are spot on. In my experience, the best way to get to know a dog is to go on a jog or walk with it. I will concede, that the "psychology" he uses is not real psychology. Rather, it is based on his vast experiences with dogs and his own Theory of the Dog's Mind (psychology is a science and as a scientific discipline it requires research and consensus-Cesar's methods cannot be called scientific, therefore it is not psychology). He has a lot of experience with dogs in groups and this is where his expertise is valuable. He understands the social functions of a dog pack and he employs his techniques with a combination of empathy, sensitivity, and strict discipline (I have a feeling that's how he raises his kids too-- South Park anybody--which is actually the recommended parenting style right now [high is structure, high in responsiveness]). Communication (between dogs and humans or humans and humans) is essential for social functioning. His ideas and techniques are useful tools for owners who are looking to better communicate with their dogs. Cesar's demeanor is strikingly calm and collected, even when he is dealing with difficult situations (wolf hybrids-that episode was intense). His outlook on life is admirable, regardless of how you think he deals with dogs. (obviously, somebody has a man-crush on CM, lets just put that on the table)
> 
> Before stumbling upon this website, I had never heard of Brad Pattison. Boy am I glad that I saw this stuff. My only response is, "wow, how'd did this guy get a TV show." It looks like he watched a million episodes of Dog Whisperer with the sound off. Brad tries to use the corrective techniques of Cesar but not a word of Cesar's mentality has crept into his mind. Cesar is constantly preaching balance and calm assertiveness, claiming that a strong calm "energy" can be read by the dog (I find the parallels between demeanor in successful human social interaction and human-dog social interaction to be more than coincidental). Brad appears to employ neither, and simply tries to be more aggressive than the dog.
> 
> Now for my analysis of Brad Pattison (this is a somewhat incomplete assessment of the man, based on only brief clips of his interactions). As several people alluded to earlier, he appears to have narcissistic personality disorder. My major issue with personality psychology is that it seems to imply an inborn characteristic that can't be changed (although, that is not entirely true, that's the way it is often understood). I would rather contend, that the man suffers from major depression-- not uncommon for middle aged men in Western Culture. A combination of natural decreases in testosterone, coupled with the mental stress of competing with younger more virile men for resources are likely the cause. His depression manifests itself as aggression (this is an extremely juvenile way to deal with mental angst, but as men in our society, it is the only thing acceptable). He is aggressive to the dogs, he is aggressive to their owners, he is aggressive to people that address him on facebook. Cesar (and anyone with their head out their @##) would take one look at this guy and be able to tell you that he is not "balanced, calm and assertive." This is likely the route of his depression, of course this is all speculation based on his interactions in a couple of youtube videos.
> My problem is not with Brad Pattison. The individual is merely the product of his or her environment and should not be blamed. However, he should be stopped. He cannot continue to "train" dogs in the manner that he does. The combination of mental illness (I say illness because it has the implication of improvement) and a fundamental misunderstanding of the techniques that he is using should set off alarms in anyone's head. My problem is with the TV company that bought his show agreed to air it (are you f-in kidding me, this guy is a nut case). I can only hope that the show gets cancelled and he gets therapy.
> 
> To those of you who actually read my post, thank you. I'm sorry it is so long.



Milan is NOT a god. ridiculous.


----------



## MissMutt

> First, I have to say that Cesar Millan is a god. I know that sometimes on his show his methods seem harsh and inhumane, but his focus is on communication with dogs, not necessarily training them.


What about those of us who communicate with our dogs THROUGH our training methods? And vice versa?



> His ideas about exercising with dogs are spot on. In my experience, the best way to get to know a dog is to go on a jog or walk with it.


This I will agree with. Until, of course, we get to that episode where he floods that scared Viszla with the city environment and oh-so-brilliantly lifts his tucked tail up with the end of the leash.



> His ideas and techniques are useful tools for owners who are looking to better communicate with their dogs.


So you think it's OK to desensitize dog owners to the idea of rolling their dog over on their side or jabbing their dog in the neck with their fingers? I communicate what I want from my dog using positive reinforcement and negative punishment. If you do something I like, I reward you. If you do something I don't like, you get something taken away. No need for the dominance anthropomorphizing "in the moment" jazz.

I agree with you on a lot of points.. I do believe Cesar is actually trying to help. His quick reflexes and "zen-like attitude" (as long time poster here Cracker calls it) also helps. His emphasis on exercise has likely slimmed a fair amount of America's fat dogs. But when I watch his show, I find more things that I don't like than I do like. And I think that people can ruin dogs by trying to imitate him. 

JMO, as always.


----------



## Bubbly

Living in Canada, I see BP's shows on TV quite a bit while flipping through channels. I have never been able to get myself to stomach through an entire episode. On the episodes that I did watch bits of, not only is he trying to "train" the dogs, he's gone on to solving relationship problems with the owners too! In one episode, as an "assignment" (mind you I only watched bits of this so I don't know the context), he asked the male owner to write his wife a letter expressing his feelings (not about the dog!) and such. I have no idea how it relates to dog training.

The worst is, he gives seminars and train other trainers too! I see ads on the local classifieds where these trainers are offering their training services and advertised that they trained and are certified under BP's program. It makes me sad that his methods aren't just contained on TV. A couple of months ago he was in town doing a doggy daycare opening and signing autographs. The newspaper wrote such a glowing review of him and had a Q&A. I was so disgusted that there are people who would go and get his autograph! Needless to say, I'll never visit said daycare.


----------



## KBLover

MissMutt said:


> This I will agree with. Until, of course, we get to that episode where he floods that scared Viszla with the city environment and oh-so-brilliantly lifts his tucked tail up with the end of the leash.


Oh if only getting rid of fear issues was that simple.

Heck, I tried it hold up Wally's tail once - it wasn't happening. That tell me the tail was trying to communicate something else because he was HOLDING it down and I would have to force it up.

That would be like making someone smile even though they are scared out their mind. You change the outer appearance, but their emotion is still there.

You solve emotion problems by tackling the emotion, not the signs of it. If Cesar's so great at reading dogs, why doesn't he understand that?


----------



## MissMutt

KBLover said:


> Oh if only getting rid of fear issues was that simple.
> 
> Heck, I tried it hold up Wally's tail once - it wasn't happening. That tell me the tail was trying to communicate something else because he was HOLDING it down and I would have to force it up.
> 
> That would be like making someone smile even though they are scared out their mind. You change the outer appearance, but their emotion is still there.
> 
> You solve emotion problems by tackling the emotion, not the signs of it. If Cesar's so great at reading dogs, why doesn't he understand that?


Ummm, obviously the tail is connected to the brain! Haven't you heard?

It seriously peeves me when Marge's tail is down but I'm not stupid enough to lift it and try to change how she's feeling in that manner. 

Seriously, if not for the fact that the poor dog was absolutely terrified and shut down, that episode of Dog Whisperer would be the most entertaining by far.


----------



## Julesypop

Thanks for a great response Miss Mutt!
I noticed that Cesar was getting a lot of heat on this particular thread and I wanted to defend him. I fully understand that his methods are by no means standard and I completely agree that they are not, by any measure, scientific. However, his mindset and stubbornness are the main things that I take away from him (I love the idea that there are no bad dogs only bad dog owners). I'm not saying that communication through conditioning is wrong, but I am saying that it is not the only method of communication. My whole point bringing Cesar up, was to emphasize the idea that there is a right way to do things and a wrong way (Brad Pattison). 

I am of the scientific persuasion, I see myself as a born-again scientist. I believe that the pursuit of knowledge is as important as knowledge itself. I also believe that the best way to get meaningful results is from repeated research and experimentation. To say that Cesar does either is a lie, I know that. But, that does not mean that he is incorrect. The dogs in his packs are amazingly well behaved and it is obviously that he has discovered something in the human-dog interaction. I love analogies. So lets compare conditioning training and Cesar's way with medical practice and holistic medicine. Operant and Classical conditioning are scientifically proven methods for training a dog. They have repeatedly been shown to be effective in controlled settings. This is like medical practice, scientifically proven results that can be replicated in a controlled environment. Cesar's method is somewhat "folkloric." He depends on his own experience and he relates his knowledge in a clear, patient manner. This can be compared to holistic medicine, which is not based on scientific research and experimentation. Rather, it is based on human experience. Is it science? Absolutely not. Is it wrong? Of course not. Herbalists and other holistic healers don't know the exact mechanisms of their treatment, but they are able to look at someone's symptoms and offer a solution, even if it is not scientific. For many people this is the right answer. (zimand... this is an interjection for you- in this respect he is a god, he has helped thousands of people fix their relationships with their dogs, scientifically or not)

I think part of the problem with Cesar is that it is a TV show. The TV show is edited which creates an illusion of quick results (despite him repeatedly telling people that there are no quick fixes). The amount of patience required for his methods is immense and largely hidden on the TV show. I can't blame Cesar for what other people interpret from his show. We, as viewers, need to be aware that it is a TV show and TV shows are strictly for entertainment purposes (yes, even discovery channel and the news). Further, networks have a bottom line to reach and their responsibility is usually to make the most money, not portray events as the truly happen. So, I can only blame people for attempting to do things that the show tells them specifically not to do.

MissMutt, thanks again for a clear response. I do have one more question for you: How do people ruin their dogs? 
I guess I believe in the plasticity and adaptability of life and to say that a life can be "ruined" is fundamentally against what I believe. I think that with time and patience, people, dogs, cats, horses, and [enter anything you like here] can be recovered. Is it easy? Probably not. Is it possible? I believe it is. I think you are trying to say that "people can ruin their relationship with their dog by trying to imitate him." I can agree with this, but I think the problem isn't that they are imitating him, it is that they are imitating what they see on TV (and as I previously tried to point out, this is dumb). People will always imitate entertainment. Hopefully they can learn how dumb that is. I hope that clears things up a little!

Another book...Thanks for reading!


----------



## MissMutt

> The worst is, he gives seminars and train other trainers too! I see ads on the local classifieds where these trainers are offering their training services and advertised that they trained and are certified under BP's program.


This is really what scares me the most. Because once something starts to resemble a chain or a corporation of some sort, people seem to automatically trust it and regard it as high quality. Kind of like how if you were stuck in a strange place, you (or at least most people) would probably go to Applebees's over a random unknown restaurant that you've never heard of if those were the only two choices. Only thing is I like Applebee's Chicken Caesar Salad a whole lot more than Pattison's garbage...


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Julesypop said:


> Thanks for a great response Miss Mutt!
> I noticed that Cesar was getting a lot of heat on this particular thread and I wanted to defend him. I fully understand that his methods are by no means standard and I completely agree that they are not, by any measure, scientific. However, his mindset and stubbornness are the main things that I take away from him (I love the idea that there are no bad dogs only bad dog owners). I'm not saying that communication through conditioning is wrong, but I am saying that it is not the only method of communication. My whole point bringing Cesar up, was to emphasize the idea that there is a right way to do things and a wrong way (Brad Pattison).
> 
> I am of the scientific persuasion, I see myself as a born-again scientist. I believe that the pursuit of knowledge is as important as knowledge itself. I also believe that the best way to get meaningful results is from repeated research and experimentation. To say that Cesar does either is a lie, I know that. But, that does not mean that he is incorrect. The dogs in his packs are amazingly well behaved and it is obviously that he has discovered something in the human-dog interaction. I love analogies. So lets compare conditioning training and Cesar's way with medical practice and holistic medicine. Operant and Classical conditioning are scientifically proven methods for training a dog. They have repeatedly been shown to be effective in controlled settings. This is like medical practice, scientifically proven results that can be replicated in a controlled environment. Cesar's method is somewhat "folkloric." He depends on his own experience and he relates his knowledge in a clear, patient manner. This can be compared to holistic medicine, which is not based on scientific research and experimentation. Rather, it is based on human experience. Is it science? Absolutely not. Is it wrong? Of course not. Herbalists and other holistic healers don't know the exact mechanisms of their treatment, but they are able to look at someone's symptoms and offer a solution, even if it is not scientific. For many people this is the right answer. (zimand... this is an interjection for you- in this respect he is a god, he has helped thousands of people fix their relationships with their dogs, scientifically or not)
> 
> I think part of the problem with Cesar is that it is a TV show. The TV show is edited which creates an illusion of quick results (despite him repeatedly telling people that there are no quick fixes). The amount of patience required for his methods is immense and largely hidden on the TV show. I can't blame Cesar for what other people interpret from his show. We, as viewers, need to be aware that it is a TV show and TV shows are strictly for entertainment purposes (yes, even discovery channel and the news). Further, networks have a bottom line to reach and their responsibility is usually to make the most money, not portray events as the truly happen. So, I can only blame people for attempting to do things that the show tells them specifically not to do.
> 
> MissMutt, thanks again for a clear response. I do have one more question for you: How do people ruin their dogs?
> I guess I believe in the plasticity and adaptability of life and to say that a life can be "ruined" is fundamentally against what I believe. I think that with time and patience, people, dogs, cats, horses, and [enter anything you like here] can be recovered. Is it easy? Probably not. Is it possible? I believe it is. I think you are trying to say that "people can ruin their relationship with their dog by trying to imitate him." I can agree with this, but I think the problem isn't that they are imitating him, it is that they are imitating what they see on TV (and as I previously tried to point out, this is dumb). People will always imitate entertainment. Hopefully they can learn how dumb that is. I hope that clears things up a little!
> 
> Another book...Thanks for reading!


he's hurt as many as he's helped just being on television. he's not a god, and in my opinion he's not a very good communicator or trainer. the stress in dogs ive seen on his show is utterly unnecessary and cruel. and if he were a good communicator..i wouldnt have to keep picking up the messes left behind by his flawed techniques


TV training...especially Cesar and Brad and to a lesser extent Victoria is the stupidest and most dangerous dog related thing on the planet as far as normal pet ownership goes. ive seen such horrible misinformation in every respect on all three shows that it makes me want to puke. 

and call me Zim/


----------



## MissMutt

> but I am saying that it is not the only method of communication.


But, learning theory is virtually universal. The most simple of organisms can be classically conditioned and many can be instrumentally conditioned as well. Which says a lot about its superiority as a method of communication.



> My whole point bringing Cesar up, was to emphasize the idea that there is a right way to do things and a wrong way (Brad Pattison).


I understand that, and certainly see a HUGE difference between CM and BP, but I think both of them are wrong over all.



> Operant and Classical conditioning are scientifically proven methods for training a dog.


And I argue that they have been proven in the real world as well. See Karen Pryor. Leslie McDevitt. See Debbie Jacobs and just about every other fearful dog trainer under the sun. Etc. etc. Even old-school aversive trainers are using it and demonstrating in some way that operant conditioning works. It's universal. It's simple and straightforward. Cesar and his "you need to be the dominant one" or "your dog is in the moment" stuff is subjective. And I have no use for subjective methods when scientific and systematic methods are available. I'd venture to guess that over 95% of the people on Cesar's show haven't worked with a true-blue animal behaviorist before they went to him. I'd venture to guess that very few of them know what classical and operant conditioning are and how to use them to train their dog. If they did, and they were STILL going to Cesar, then I'd say you have a point. But the vast majority of dogs on that show could be "rehabilitated" using plain old CC and OC.



> MissMutt, thanks again for a clear response. I do have one more question for you: How do people ruin their dogs?


By mimicking training techniques that they don't understand, especially AVERSIVE techniques like those seen on CM's show. I see people walking around all the time going "chht" and pointing a finger at their dog expecting it to move. Benign enough, BUT then it escalates, and they're leash popping the dog despite the fact that the dog doesn't know what they're asking, or they're attempting to punish aggressive or fearful responses, etc. I've also heard stories of people alpha rolling their dogs after watching it on Cesar and then getting bit. I have SEEN a person alpha roll a puppy and it was just one of the worst things I've ever witnessed. They can instill fear into their dogs by mimicking people like CM and that IMO is how they ruin their dogs.. they create problems that weren't there to begin with.


----------



## Inga

MissMutt said:


> So you think it's OK to desensitize dog owners to the idea of rolling their dog over on their side or jabbing their dog in the neck with their fingers? .


I tried that once with my dogs just to see what they would do. They basically looked at me like "What do you think you are doing?" and continued doing what they were doing. I then just asked them to do something else "redirection" and the issue was over. Guess I don't have the technique down well enough. lol I even made the "Pffft" sound that he makes. Still didn't work.


----------



## wvasko

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> he's hurt as many as he's helped just being on television. he's not a god, and in my opinion he's not a very good communicator or trainer. the stress in dogs ive seen on his show is utterly unnecessary and cruel. and if he were a good communicator..i wouldnt have to keep picking up the messes left behind by his flawed techniques
> 
> 
> TV training...especially Cesar and Brad and to a lesser extent Victoria is the stupidest and most dangerous dog related thing on the planet as far as normal pet ownership goes. ive seen such horrible misinformation in every respect on all three shows that it makes me want to puke.
> 
> and call me Zim/


Geeze!!!!!
I thought I was the only doG training doG, well actually I was the 1st.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

wvasko said:


> Geeze!!!!!
> I thought I was the only doG training doG, well actually I was the 1st.


Wvasko...don't sweat it..im sure if you ask nice, someone will clean the cesar stains from your shoes where you kicked his butt seven ways to tuesday in the category of dog training sense.


----------



## wvasko

I've mentioned before on DF that I'm neutral on CM as I've just seen to many trainers through the years that were rough to say the least. BP a different story as I've also stated that after watching a youtube of him smacking a dog around that was doing absolutely nothing (that I could see) wrong and I did not have a clue as to what he was doing. My personal opinion is that BP should not be allowed near an empty dog lead. 

One thing I do know for sure is that there are no doGlike dog trainers anywhere.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

wvasko said:


> I've mentioned before on DF that I'm neutral on CM as I've just seen to many trainers through the years that were rough to say the least. BP a different story as I've also stated that after watching a youtube of him smacking a dog around that was doing absolutely nothing (that I could see) wrong and I did not have a clue as to what he was doing. My personal opinion is that BP should not be allowed near an empty dog lead.


CM isnt an idiotic sadist like Pattasson is. Ill give him that. i just think that TV dog training is a really bad idea all around. they can give all the "warnings" they like..but they have to know that most people arent going to listen..and something(money) tells me they dont care.



> One thing I do know for sure is that there are no doGlike dog trainers anywhere.


if i could agree any more...id drop dead on the spot from the effort.


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## MissMutt

> they can give all the "warnings" they like..but they have to know that most people arent going to listen..and something(money) tells me they dont care.


This this this ^^^


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest

Inga said:


> I tried that once with my dogs just to see what they would do. They basically looked at me like "What do you think you are doing?" and continued doing what they were doing. I then just asked them to do something else "redirection" and the issue was over. Guess I don't have the technique down well enough. lol I even made the "Pffft" sound that he makes. Still didn't work.


Roll Smalls on her side/back and it's GAME ON. Poke her while making noises? You better be in for an hour of zoomies and a wrestling match. I think I'm doing it wrong?


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## LynnI

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> he's hurt as many as he's helped just being on television. he's not a god, and in my opinion he's not a very good communicator or trainer. the stress in dogs ive seen on his show is utterly unnecessary and cruel. and if he were a good communicator*..i wouldnt have to keep picking up the messes left behind by his flawed techniques*TV training...especially Cesar and Brad and to a lesser extent Victoria is the stupidest and most dangerous dog related thing on the planet as far as normal pet ownership goes. ive seen such horrible misinformation in every respect on all three shows that it makes me want to puke.
> 
> and call me Zim/


This ^^^^, especially the bolded part. Frankly I am sick and tried of dealing with people that have watched those shows, read those books or ordered the DVD's. Bottom line is, these people propably would have gone to a professional dog trainer (or god forbid pick up some good DVD's or books) to solve their problems instead of trying to do what that show and CM are doing, which in most cases makes the problems worse! Those t.v programs in my opinion are dangerous and irresponsible at best. And if ol Cesar is such a great communicator and understands dog so well, that what he calls as submissive and calm the rest of us view as shut down and suppressed? And to claim he isn't a dog trainer is a joke, first job of most trainers is educating and demonstrating to clients how to understand behaviour, body language and methods to improve the dogs.
So Julesypop, you just happen to be preaching to a bunch of rather well educated and experienced trainers/owners that through education, experience KNOW just how flawed ol CM and his methods really are. And the bottom line is the little good his methods and show does, doesn't compare to the damage it inflicts upon countless dogs.


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## jiml

I'm a tad confused nothing new though, Was BP claiming that the owners need to get laid or as a dog expert claiming that if dogs got laid they would become good dogs>>>>>

#1. he thought dysfunction and frustration in the human romance dept was affecting the dogs behavior. after all he is a "Dog advocate and human-being life coach"

I remember he also put a babydoll on a couch with a piece of food next to it. the dog of coarse went for trhe food. This somehow proved treat training causes dogs to be aggressive to children

i cant get it to work but episodes are here- http://www.slice.ca/Slice/Watch/Default.aspx


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## Cracker

No Cesar is not a god. Hyperbole is unbecoming in an obviously intelligent poster.

To lightly touch on MM's idea of ruined dogs:
Many dogs "ruined" by excessively aversive techniques can be rehabilitated, but it is extremely time consuming and stressful for all involved. Most "average" pet owners wouldn't bother trying and would instead get rid of the dog. This is a real problem in the dog world. CM's first three seasons were full of flooding, alpha rolling, mis reading of dog body language (ie misinterpreting of fearful or appeasement behaviours as dominance related behaviours) and suppression of behaviours to the point of the dog shutting down. People educated and experienced in dog body language have been pretty vocal about what they think of that and many very good behaviourists and dog trainers spend a good amount of their time trying to save the dogs that these methods have messed up. I am one of them.

I think he has done some good (exercise, discipline, affection) but that for every person that takes that to heart, there are ten that are hanging their dogs by their collars, pinning them to the ground and totally misinterpreting their dogs. 

It IS interesting to note that CM has grown a lot over the past three seasons...acknowledging fear and stress in the dogs, less flooding, more CC etc. He is growing his knowledge base and is open to change. This is good. But he is not a god. Only Wvasko is even close...lol


----------



## KBLover

Julesypop said:


> The dogs in his packs are amazingly well behaved and it is obviously that he has discovered something in the human-dog interaction. I love analogies. So lets compare conditioning training and Cesar's way with medical practice and holistic medicine. Operant and Classical conditioning are scientifically proven methods for training a dog. They have repeatedly been shown to be effective in controlled settings. This is like medical practice, scientifically proven results that can be replicated in a controlled environment. Cesar's method is somewhat "folkloric." He depends on his own experience and he relates his knowledge in a clear, patient manner. This can be compared to holistic medicine, which is not based on scientific research and experimentation. Rather, it is based on human experience. Is it science?!



....

What?

No, seriously - what?

Operant and Classical Conditioning explains a lot of what he does (and why it works) and the rest is reading body language and using signals (like no touch, no talk, no eye contact for excited dogs - calming signals - he just doesn't call them that). Unless you're telling me he psychically communicates with the dogs. He body blocks, that's neg. punishment. He makes a sound and pokes a dog to get their attention - you could call that a light pos. punishment. When the dog complies, he massages/relaxes the dog, that's a reward.

His mantra - exercise, *discipline, affection* is just another expression of operant conditioning (sans the exercise). Discipline and affection is delivered and developed via OC.

Just like medical science can explain why herbs work. Just because herbs work doesn't mean it's outside of medical knowledge or some mystical properties. 

I don't see anything CM does that's not explained by conditioning and body language/reading canine signals. The fact most people may not be able to do it doesn't make it a mystical ability. It just means most people suck at reading canine signals.


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## MissMutt

The problem with Cesar though is that he does not change his definition based on the dog (which he really should do since he works with all of these "exceptional" cases).. in his eyes, if he's rubbing the ears of a dog that is on the ground panting and gasping after he just wrestled with it, it's automatically positive reinforcement. If he's scratching the back of a dog who shut down and finally stopped panicking when he heard the toaster, that's positive reinforcement, too. But it's really not, and the dogs IMO are usually not indicating through their behavior that they are receiving it as such. 

Same goes for his definition of punishment to some extent.. And when he pops the leash or chhhhts and then the dog's behavior ESCALATES, that's still considered a correction to him (positive punishment) but it's really not... because it didn't stop the undesired behavior. It made it worse!

Nothing is inherently a reinforcer or punisher. It all depends on the dog and the situation. But based on the way he trains, a petting is automatically reinforcement and yanking the leash is automatically punishment. His actions therefore indicate to me that he knows pretty much nothing about correct implementation of these principles.


----------



## wvasko

> Operant and Classical Conditioning explains a lot of what he does (and why it works) and the rest is reading body language and using signals (like no touch, no talk, no eye contact for excited dogs - calming signals - he just doesn't call them that). Unless you're telling me he psychically communicates with the dogs. He body blocks, that's neg. punishment. He makes a sound and pokes a dog to get their attention - you could call that a light pos. punishment. When the dog complies, he massages/relaxes the dog, that's a reward.
> 
> His mantra - exercise, discipline, affection is just another expression of operant conditioning (sans the exercise). Discipline and affection is delivered and developed via OC.
> 
> Just like medical science can explain why herbs work. Just because herbs work doesn't mean it's outside of medical knowledge or some mystical properties.
> 
> I don't see anything CM does that's not explained by conditioning and body language/reading canine signals. The fact most people may not be able to do it doesn't make it a mystical ability. It just means most people suck at reading canine signals.


Well the above is interesting because without the TV show it just makes CM a dog trainer. Better than some not as good as others. There is nothing on show that is real dog training it's a facade of dog training. That's what amazes me the most about all the CM interest if there is no action going on nobody will watch it. My opinion only.


----------



## KBLover

MissMutt said:


> Nothing is inherently a reinforcer or punisher. It all depends on the dog and the situation. But based on the way he trains, a petting is automatically reinforcement and yanking the leash is automatically punishment. His actions therefore indicate to me that he knows pretty much nothing about correct implementation of these principles.


For a dog reader that he's supposed to be, it is ironic that he doesn't define his actions based on the dog's response to his actions but solely on his intentions of his action.


----------



## MissMutt

KBLover said:


> For a dog reader that he's supposed to be, it is ironic that he doesn't define his actions based on the dog's response to his actions but solely on his intentions of his action.


Truth!

(tooshort)


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

KBLover said:


> For a dog reader that he's supposed to be, it is ironic that he doesn't define his actions based on the dog's response to his actions but solely on his intentions of his action.


YUS!!!! KB made the words work.


----------



## KBLover

wvasko said:


> Well the above is interesting because without the TV show it just makes CM a dog trainer. Better than some not as good as others. There is nothing on show that is real dog training it's a facade of dog training. That's what amazes me the most about all the CM interest if there is no action going on nobody will watch it. My opinion only.


All the real training is all in the "elapsed time" stuff probably. You know, show confrontation to draw interest, narrator dramatizes it, put box in corner that was elapsed time X minutes, show Cesar with 'calm' dog and amazed owners. Narrator hypes it up. Owners are amazed because they let the dog get to that point (or lack common sense/basic training skills a good book, class, or forum like here could teach them - I know - I learned by good books and this place). Cue testimonial of amazed owners. 

But I've been called cynical before 

Edit: It's like the "Dogfather" guy who supposedly has some secret system that involves a prong collar and lines if varying lengths ("freedom lines" I love how people think giving things new names actually makes them new things!)

He has no secret system. It's just operant conditioning sold as some secret principals only he has. Any "old school" trainer could do it, and probably better - since that's all he really is.


----------



## wvasko

KBLover said:


> For a dog reader that he's supposed to be, it is ironic that he doesn't define his actions based on the dog's response to his actions but solely on his intentions of his action.


Well that's whats even more confusing because it takes time to read a dog properly, I don't know how other trainers handle the dogs dropped off for work (board/train work is all I do) but I tell my customers it will take a couple weeks to get inside dog's head. How is that accomplished in 1 hr TV show. Just askin'...

This is not to make excuses for CM, as I said I'm neutral, I just like to stir the pot.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

Inga said:


> I tried that once with my dogs just to see what they would do. They basically looked at me like "What do you think you are doing?" and continued doing what they were doing. I then just asked them to do something else "redirection" and the issue was over. Guess I don't have the technique down well enough. lol I even made the "Pffft" sound that he makes. Still didn't work.


I took my index finger and poked Auz on his neck and went TSST! once, and he grinned and started doing the excited-butt-tucked zoomies around the yard. It was almost worth doing it over and over again because his reaction was so hilarious 
I heard somewhere CM does that sound because it's what he heard as a kid, and it "naturally" falls out of his mouth, like "HEY" naturally falls out of my mouth if I want to interrupt something or someone. A lot of horse people I know IRL use "QUIT!" because it's what they grew up hearing with horse people, and they use it on their dogs, too. 
And CM is not a god. Come on. Seriously?



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> CM isnt an idiotic sadist like Pattasson is. Ill give him that. i just think that TV dog training is a really bad idea all around. they can give all the "warnings" they like..but they have to know that most people arent going to listen..and something(money) tells me they dont care.
> 
> 
> 
> if i could agree any more...id drop dead on the spot from the effort.


You're right on about TV trainers. VS's methods aren't so much dangerous for an extremely green dog owner with an out of control dog, but I (personally) am finding her shows a bit annoying. I don't really watch any of them anymore. 
I wish Karen Pryor had a TV show... :::grumble:::


----------



## KBLover

wvasko said:


> Well that's whats even more confusing because it takes time to read a dog properly, I don't know how other trainers handle the dogs dropped off for work (board/train work is all I do) but I tell my customers it will take a couple weeks to get inside dog's head. How is that accomplished in 1 hr TV show. Just askin'...
> 
> This is not to make excuses for CM, as I said I'm neutral, I just like to stir the pot.



Probably because you actually take time to attack the dog's issues, which will take more than an hour. I would imagine you wouldn't take a dog scared of treadmills and force him on the treadmill, force him to stay on the treadmill while he's having the canine version of a panic attack, and until the dog gives in. Not because he's all into treadmills now, but because he's learned his efforts are worthless.

Dogs do what works and stop what doesn't. So CM used learned helplessness to get the job done. I imagine you would actually try to get the dog to like treadmills, or at least not be scared of it so it would get on by himself.

That's just an example, but that's how you could get it done in an hour - by instead of addressing the issue, you force the dog to give up and just do it because everything else fails. It works, the dog is on the treadmill, but at what cost?

I imagine you, wvasko, as one to takes a dog's spirit and guides it to your task. Not break the dog's spirit, then make it do what you want.


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## LazyGRanch713

*"Dog advocate and human-being life coach"*

That right there makes him sound like an *ss. Just sayin'


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## KBLover

LazyGRanch713 said:


> You're right on about TV trainers. VS's methods aren't so much dangerous for an extremely green dog owner with an out of control dog, but I (personally) am finding her shows a bit annoying. I don't really watch any of them anymore.
> I wish Karen Pryor had a TV show... :::grumble:::


The few times I've seen VS's show, I found myself saying "duh" a lot.

And considering I've trained a dog for all of 2 years - that's probably not a good thing


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

LazyGRanch713 said:


> You're right on about TV trainers. VS's methods aren't so much dangerous for an extremely green dog owner with an out of control dog, but I (personally) am finding her shows a bit annoying. I don't really watch any of them anymore.
> I wish Karen Pryor had a TV show... :::grumble:::


If i have to pick a TV trainer..id go with VS...


but i REEEEEEEEEEALLLLY dont want to pick.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

wvasko said:


> Well the above is interesting because without the TV show it just makes CM a dog trainer. Better than some not as good as others. There is nothing on show that is real dog training it's a facade of dog training. That's what amazes me the most about all the *CM interest if there is no action going on nobody will watch it.* My opinion only.


Gold Star for the one who doesn't do push ups, but pushes the earth down. 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> If i have to pick a TV trainer..id go with VS...
> 
> 
> but i REEEEEEEEEEALLLLY dont want to pick.


Eenie Meanie Miney Moe 
catch a dumb**** by the remote....



KBLover said:


> The few times I've seen VS's show, I found myself saying "duh" a lot.
> 
> And considering I've trained a dog for all of 2 years - that's probably not a good thing


I'll admit, I lost a lot of respect for VS ater Greatest American Dog. She got bordeline ballistic on a few handlers that I thought was extremely overboard and....dramatic on her part.


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## MissMutt

I don't like any TV dog training, but I at least think that people are less likely to f* up their dog through Victoria's methods, even if they use them the wrong way.

It'd be so awesome if there was actually a training show out there that detailed the techniques and showed much more footage of their implementation than any of the above shows do.


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## KBLover

MissMutt said:


> It'd be so awesome if there was actually a training show out there that detailed the techniques and showed much more footage of their implementation than any of the above shows do.


Exactly.

That and when the stuff doesn't work to show how the trainer adapts to unforeseen problems or takes actions the dog does and use them to their advantage instead of trying to put the dog in a box.


----------



## MissMutt

KBLover said:


> Exactly.
> 
> That and when the stuff doesn't work to show how the trainer adapts to unforeseen problems or takes actions the dog does and use them to their advantage instead of trying to put the dog in a box.


Yeah.

Only problem is that for someone who's not a psych or dog training nerd (like the majority of the dog owning population), that's not great TV. 

Not that I think abusive dog training is great TV, but the ratings say it is...


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## Xeph

I do the "psst" thing on my dogs and poke them in various parts of their bodies, but it's to get their attention back on me if they've had an ADD moment during training. I'll "pinch" Mirada's butt and go "sst!" but the tone (if such a sound can have one) is a bit high pitched and enticing, and the pinch is an "Oop! Got your butt!"


----------



## MissMutt

I have a similar noise that I use when playing with Marge; I kind of grab her butt and make the noise and it usually sends her running (in a happy way, like when we're playing out in the field). 

The difference is though that these noises/motions have come to mean something for our dogs; for people who CHHT their dogs after watching Cesar, they act like the sound by itself has some sort of magic powers lol. I almost want to ask them sometimes, why are you doing that? What does it mean to your dog?


----------



## Xeph

When I saw people doing that to their puppies in puppy class, I wanted to walk up to them, jab THEM in the neck and go "CHHT!" and when they turned to look at me and ask "What was that for!?" I want to tell them "You mean you don't know? Gee...your puppy doesn't either."


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness

MissMutt said:


> I don't like any TV dog training, but I at least think that people are less likely to f* up their dog through Victoria's methods, even if they use them the wrong way.


I have to respectively disagree, treating, removing the dog or clicking the clicker at the wrong time can create problems as well. A person with no guidence can screw up any dog no matter what method they choose to emulate.


----------



## MissMutt

dogdragoness said:


> I have to respectively disagree, treating, removing the dog or clicking the clicker at the wrong time can create problems as well. A person with no guidence can screw up any dog no matter what method they choose to emulate.


I didn't say it was impossible, just that it was less likely. I'd much rather see a person click at the wrong time or reward the wrong behavior than alpha roll a dog to punish aggression and get bitten in the face. Victoria also tends to deal with more mild cases, so the techniques she employs on her TV show typically aren't featured on extremely aggressive-type dogs or anything like that.


----------



## KBLover

dogdragoness said:


> I have to respectively disagree, treating, removing the dog or clicking the clicker at the wrong time can create problems as well. A person with no guidence can screw up any dog no matter what method they choose to emulate.


Sure, lumping, bad timing, using poor motivators, "bribery" (which is really making the reward part of the cue), those are traps to avoid. Don't see how they could screw up a dog, though.


----------



## Kai Reddtail

I have big issues with Brattison. Big, big issues. He's probably the most prominent Canadian trainer on television, and he's terrible! I would honestly go get some sort of long stick or impromptu defence object if I saw him coming within 100 feet of my dogs! 

Although I don't agree with some of Cesar's methods, I would take him over Brattison ANY DAY. 

He'll complain at people that they're treating their dogs too much like children, and then make a comparison between dogs and children that shows similarity! 

He puts dogs in danger. He denies it, but there was this episode where he told this little girl to "trust him" and drop the leash. He KNEW this dog wasn't going to listen. He KNEW it would run off. TV show or not, I don't think he has the whole town frozen in time, that dog could have been hurt. She could have been hit by a car or gotten lost forever or something! 

He treats the people like crap and always refers to the dogs as "it", rarely she or he. 

And I always feel like he talks like people shouldn't value their dogs, like they're the scum of the earth creatures. Some people think of their pets as children. I will admit there are situations where that can cause problems but that doesn't mean it's inherently bad. He seems to think that's the worst thing on the planet. 

"It's a dog!" he often says "It's a dog!" 

Well to some people it's more than that. Some people value their dogs as friends and companions, equals. 

Every little action for him means "it's trying to DOMINATE YOU!" It's like, ever think the dog MIGHT be trying to get out the door before you because she's... Oh I dunno... really excited to go on a walk? Ever think he might be jumping on guests because he hasn't been taught that's unacceptable greeting behavior? Honestly, everything about this man gets me riled.


----------



## Willowy

dogdragoness said:


> I have to respectively disagree, treating, removing the dog or clicking the clicker at the wrong time can create problems as well. A person with no guidence can screw up any dog no matter what method they choose to emulate.


Hmmm, I can see how you can mess up the dog's training, but it's unlikely that the dog will become a quivering heap of nerves if someone clicks and treats at the wrong time. Plus a damaged dog is hard to fix. . .but an improperly trained dog is pretty easy to fix.

Honestly, I'm disappointed the guy hasn't been arrested. Aren't these things supposed to be illegal under animal cruelty statutes? It's not like there would be a problem proving the case--you've got video!


----------



## jiml

Don't see how they could screw up a dog, though.>>>>

I believe in balanced training starting w least aversive first. If one method does not work and another could have. the dog can be ultimately be put to death - that = a screwed dog. Lots of tools in the tool box is the way to go in my book. Judgment on how and when to use them is the judgment call.


----------



## Julesypop

Excellent, discussion. People are really making good points. 
I guess at this point, I should retract my statement that Cesar is a god. It was an exaggeration to get conversation flowing and to provide a quick comparison. Personally, I've never really trained a dog (aside from the easy sit, stay and shake- which I had to use treats for- and was super easy because my dogs have all had great tempraments), so I have no real proof for methods that are effective or not. All that I have to go by is his reported mentality (calm, assertive). These are important states that help you stay clear minded (whether training dogs, shooting free throws, giving a speech). This mindset is the mindset of success. Clearly, his techniques are controversial at the least, but his belief that a good dog starts with a good owner seems to ring true. The points of TV shows are also necessary to the conversation. Wvasko, made a good point that the general population is not going to sit and watch a 30 min training program that consists of every repetition (this goes for all the TV trainers). With this in mind, on the television show, Cesar deals largely with what he calls "red zone" cases and seemingly highly aggressive dogs. To me, this could be a reason that some of his methods seem so extreme. I can say from experience that a firm snap of the fingers is enough to divert the attention of dogs in most states, sometimes I will even elevate to a verbal "hey." Physical corrections has never been my thing (when I was a kid my 110 pound lab jumped on top of my 30 pound, 3 year old sister and my father quickly grabbed him by the neck and gave him a quick spanking- very similar to the ones that we would get when we were children- this experience left a rather bad taste in my mouth, that was the only time he did it and I think it was a fearful parent reaction, but needless to say it left a bad taste in my mouth). I've also seen the effects of dogs training dogs (which is one of Cesar's major techniques). Granted, they were both good dogs to begin with, but when one dog was behaving well, it was much easier to get the other to behave well. Especially if I gave treats or patted the one that was behaving. 


So, to sum: Cesar not a god, but a good person with honest intentions
TV=Bad (even though we all watch it)
Brad Pattison= a good example of a bad trainer (dog or life-coach- I can't believe he's serious)



I love controversy and this has the controversy and emotion of biblical proportion.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

> Cesar deals largely with what he calls "red zone" cases and seemingly highly aggressive dogs.


i pretty much ONLY work with extreme aggression cases. i NEVER use the type of garbage ive seen on his show. 




> To me, this could be a reason that some of his methods seem so extreme. I can say from experience that a firm snap of the fingers is enough to divert the attention of dogs in most states, sometimes I will even elevate to a verbal "hey.


no..his most common methods are extreme...because they're flawed (alpha rolling, flooding etc)...none of that is good dog training..in fact its very bad, very dangerous dog training. 

and for the dogs i work with..a firm "snap of the fingers" does nothing....prey drive luring, desensitization and counter conditioning work just fine.


----------



## MissMutt

Julesypop, it seems like you're defining Cesar based on the things that are found in ALL good trainers - calm demeanor when working on behavioral issues, for example, or the notion that good dogs (and good dog behavior) start with good owners. I don't think Cesar is exceptional in this regard at all. You might enjoy reading the work of some other popular dog trainers, since you've said you don't have any experience training dogs beyond the basics.

His methods, his use (or misuse) of rewards and punishment, IMO, are what should define him.


----------



## sassafras

Xeph said:


> I do the "psst" thing on my dogs and poke them in various parts of their bodies, but it's to get their attention back on me if they've had an ADD moment during training. I'll "pinch" Mirada's butt and go "sst!" but the tone (if such a sound can have one) is a bit high pitched and enticing, and the pinch is an "Oop! Got your butt!"


I do this with Maisy sometimes, too. It's more of a "tss! tss! tss!" as an attention-getter for, as you say, those ADD moments when my normal attention getting noises aren't working. In fact, I've sometimes done it in class and then internally cringed at the thought that the trainers and other students might have misunderstood what I just did.


----------



## KBLover

jiml said:


> Don't see how they could screw up a dog, though.>>>>
> 
> I believe in balanced training starting w least aversive first. If one method does not work and another could have. the dog can be ultimately be put to death - that = a screwed dog. Lots of tools in the tool box is the way to go in my book. Judgment on how and when to use them is the judgment call.


What is "balanced training"?

These labels don't make sense to me and have no standard definition.

What exactly is that? I assume it's more than R+/P-?

Is it "Balanced" because you use all the quadrants? So does every trainer (especially if you look at it from the dog's point of view), not what you intended the action to be. Does that mean all trainers are balanced trainers?

I'm all for tools in the tool box. That doesn't mean flooding and alpha rolls and all that belong in there or are actually tools. I mean, really, what kind of tool is flooding? I call it more like emotional torture instead of teaching the dog anything.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness

Oh yeah I like a nice cival debate like this one as well. I agree with some of what ceaser does but not all of it. I think that too many people humanize their dogs, too many people don't train their dogs & too many people over humanize their dogs. I knlw because I'm guilty of this also (though only in reference) I always make sure that Izze has plenty of excersise & when the puppy comes, plenty of 'us' time. I DO believe that dogs can feel jealous, lonely, angry, happy, sad, ashamed, etc & I don't agree with ceaser when he says they cannot then says that you have to nurture spirit & mind of the dog. BUT if they didn't have feelings, there wouldn't be a NEED for this would there?


----------



## LazyGRanch713

KBLover said:


> All the real training is all in the "elapsed time" stuff probably. You know, show confrontation to draw interest, narrator dramatizes it, put box in corner that was elapsed time X minutes, show Cesar with 'calm' dog and amazed owners. Narrator hypes it up. Owners are amazed because they let the dog get to that point (or lack common sense/basic training skills a good book, class, or forum like here could teach them - I know - I learned by good books and this place). Cue testimonial of amazed owners.
> 
> But I've been called cynical before
> 
> Edit: It's like the "Dogfather" guy who supposedly has some secret system that involves a prong collar and lines if varying lengths* ("freedom lines" I love how people think giving things new names actually makes them new things!)
> *
> He has no secret system. It's just operant conditioning sold as some secret principals only he has. Any "old school" trainer could do it, and probably better - since that's all he really is.


I gave the GSD a "love thump" over the head with a baseball bat.
Doesn't that sound pretty? XD


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

dogdragoness said:


> I DO believe that dogs can feel *jealous, lonely, angry, happy, sad, ashamed,* etc & I don't agree with ceaser when he says they cannot then says that you have to nurture spirit & mind of the dog. BUT if they didn't have feelings, there wouldn't be a NEED for this would there?


i halfway agree with both you and Cesar on the bolded bit.

but i look at it from a slightly more sciencey viewpoint.

put it this way, dog brains do not function like human brains. there's bits we have that they dont...and there's bits they have that we dont. 

Put a bunch of biology nerds in a room and tell them to start speculating on things like exobiology and one of the first things you hear(least i did when i was in the room)..is that different brains would define emotions differently. this can be applied also in a sense to species related differences. So no..i dont think they get jealous, feel happy and sad, get angry, etc...BUT 

i do think they have positive and negative emotional states.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

Xeph said:


> I do the "psst" thing on my dogs and poke them in various parts of their bodies, but it's to get their attention back on me if they've had an ADD moment during training. I'll "pinch" Mirada's butt and go "sst!" but the tone (if such a sound can have one) is a bit high pitched and enticing, and the pinch is an "Oop! Got your butt!"


I and a lot of others use that noise to make horses gallop. It's just a high pitched "SSS" sound, while tensing up. It really gets a lot of them going 



MissMutt said:


> I didn't say it was impossible, just that it was less likely. I'd much rather see a person click at the wrong time or reward the wrong behavior than alpha roll a dog to punish aggression and get bitten in the face. Victoria also tends to deal with more mild cases, so the techniques she employs on her TV show typically aren't featured on extremely aggressive-type dogs or anything like that.


The only aggression case I saw VS deal with was an American Bulldog, but granted I don't watch the show much.



Julesypop said:


> Excellent, discussion. People are really making good points.
> I guess at this point, I should retract my statement that Cesar is a god. It was an exaggeration to get conversation flowing and to provide a quick comparison. Personally, I've never really trained a dog (aside from the easy sit, stay and shake- which I had to use treats for- and was super easy because my dogs have all had great tempraments), so I have no real proof for methods that are effective or not. All that I have to go by is his reported mentality (calm, assertive). These are important states that help you stay clear minded (whether training dogs, shooting free throws, giving a speech). This mindset is the mindset of success. Clearly, his techniques are controversial at the least, but his belief that a good dog starts with a good owner seems to ring true. The points of TV shows are also necessary to the conversation. Wvasko, made a good point that the general population is not going to sit and watch a 30 min training program that consists of every repetition (this goes for all the TV trainers). With this in mind, on the television show, Cesar deals largely with what he calls "red zone" cases and seemingly highly aggressive dogs. To me, this could be a reason that some of his methods seem so extreme. I can say from experience that a firm snap of the fingers is enough to divert the attention of dogs in most states, sometimes I will even elevate to a verbal "hey." Physical corrections has never been my thing (when I was a kid my 110 pound lab jumped on top of my 30 pound, 3 year old sister and my father quickly grabbed him by the neck and gave him a quick spanking- very similar to the ones that we would get when we were children- this experience left a rather bad taste in my mouth, that was the only time he did it and I think it was a fearful parent reaction, but needless to say it left a bad taste in my mouth). I've also seen the effects of dogs training dogs (which is one of Cesar's major techniques). Granted, they were both good dogs to begin with, but when one dog was behaving well, it was much easier to get the other to behave well. Especially if I gave treats or patted the one that was behaving.
> 
> 
> So, to sum: Cesar not a god, but a good person with honest intentions
> TV=Bad (even though we all watch it)
> Brad Pattison= a good example of a bad trainer (dog or life-coach- I can't believe he's serious)
> 
> 
> 
> I love controversy and this has the controversy and emotion of biblical proportion.


I can agree, I think CM has good intentions and is a natural handler. His methods (especially those in the early years) sucked IMO. I'm happy to see him changing and evolving and learning new techniques. A good example IMO was when his neck poking "Tsst" thing failed, a dog charged the door and CM was standing there, "tapping" and "touching" the dog with his foot to "snap him out of it" and the dog was so over threshold I don't even think the dog knew he was there. He changed his perspective and admitted it failed, so he used cheese instead and rewarded the dog for NOT charging the door. It was kind of nice to see coming from him; and hopefully die-hard CM dominance/alpha roll followers will see that he's changing his tune and learn to stop cramming square dogs into round holes.



MissMutt said:


> Julesypop, it seems like you're defining Cesar based on the things that are found in ALL good trainers - calm demeanor when working on behavioral issues, for example, or the notion that good dogs (and good dog behavior) start with good owners. I don't think Cesar is exceptional in this regard at all. You might enjoy reading the work of some other popular dog trainers, since you've said you don't have any experience training dogs beyond the basics.
> 
> His methods, his use (or misuse) of rewards and punishment, IMO, are what should define him.


The thing is, my first "trainer" constantly touted the calm-assertive thing, but he was still a jackass. He didn't use those exact words, but for instance there was a young, drivey GSD in one of our classes who lunged and barked at every other dog. (He was people friendly, I really liked that dog as we boarded him several times). The trainer got in Hans' (the dogs) face when he was lunging/barking, and the dog started barking at HIM. The trainer took the leash out of the owners hand and helicoptered the dog (something I'd never seen before). When he was done, he went on to tell the class how we never ever should raise our voices or get excited. AS IF helicoptering was OK and perfectly fine, but God Forbid anyone should raise their voices. It was beyond ridiculous. 
I've never seen my current trainer work with anything except rally and agility students. But she's always upbeat and always greets the dogs and the dogs adore her. Depending on the dog I'm working on (in the grooming room), I've been quiet and serene or bubbly. It just depends on the dog.



KBLover said:


> What is "balanced training"?
> 
> These labels don't make sense to me and have no standard definition.
> 
> What exactly is that? I assume it's more than R+/P-?
> 
> Is it "Balanced" because you use all the quadrants? So does every trainer (especially if you look at it from the dog's point of view), not what you intended the action to be. Does that mean all trainers are balanced trainers?
> 
> I'm all for tools in the tool box. That doesn't mean flooding and alpha rolls and all that belong in there or are actually tools. I mean, really, what kind of tool is flooding? I call it more like emotional torture instead of teaching the dog anything.


That's such a sticky question 
I consider myself balanced, sort of. I use aversives and won't deny it. BUT--the aversives depend on the dog. If I collar popped Tag and said "KNOCK IT OFF!" he'd shut down; I can guarantee it. If I collar popped Auz and yelled "KNOCK IT OFF!" he'd probably look at me, wag his tail, and continue doing what he was doing. I'm not nuts about introducing aversives until you're in the proofing stage, though. A good example is Tag and his pause table. He has done an automatic down/wait until I release since he was 6 months old. Last night, I put him on his pause table in the kitchen and gav Dude a biscuit. Tag broke. I stopped and stared at him silently. He looked at me for a minute, got back into position. That was enough of an aversive for him. 
I heard once that a balanced trainer is someone who balances a clicker on their e-collar remote. That IMO is a crappy way to look at it.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i halfway agree with both you and Cesar on the bolded bit.
> 
> but i look at it from a slightly more sciencey viewpoint.
> 
> put it this way, dog brains do not function like human brains. there's bits we have that they dont...and there's bits they have that we dont.
> 
> Put a bunch of biology nerds in a room and tell them to start speculating on things like exobiology and one of the first things you hear(least i did when i was in the room)..is that different brains would define emotions differently. this can be applied also in a sense to species related differences. So no..i dont think they get jealous, feel happy and sad, get angry, etc...BUT
> 
> i do think they have positive and negative emotional states.


That's a good point. And, I think I feel certain emotions much more strongly than others do; and others to a lesser extent. (I don't get offended easily, but I know people who do.)


----------



## KBLover

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> So no..i dont think they get jealous, feel happy and sad, get angry, etc...BUT
> 
> i do think they have positive and negative emotional states.


I don't know - I think dogs have more than just 2 emotional states. If nothing else, I've seen Wally be excited, and then his "I'm having fun!" expression when he dog laughs (a forceful and on purpose hah hah hah hah sound)

Likewise I've seen him "pout" (go away, flop on the ground, and grunt) or snort and groan when he's annoyed by something, or low growl and wave his tail from the middle to his left (avoidance axis).

Heck, if I ask him to paw or speak and he's like "where the **** reward?" he'll give a different bark than if his all wound up and excited in barking, or when he whines during shaping because he's highly excited, can't figure it out, but wants the reward badly. 

Seems like more than just positive/negative. Seems more detailed/granular than that?


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

KBLover said:


> I don't know - I think dogs have more than just 2 emotional states. If nothing else, I've seen Wally be excited, and then his "I'm having fun!" expression when he dog laughs (a forceful and on purpose hah hah hah hah sound)
> 
> Likewise I've seen him "pout" (go away, flop on the ground, and grunt) or snort and groan when he's annoyed by something, or low growl and wave his tail from the middle to his left (avoidance axis).
> 
> Seems like more than just positive/negative. Seems more detailed/granular than that?


clarification

positive and negative emotional states in multiple variations

like happy is a positive emotional state. so is amused. there's more than one variety of positive emotional state and more than one type of negative emotional state

but i think it's shortsighted to define them in human terms for the reasons stated above.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

KBLover said:


> I don't know - I think dogs have more than just 2 emotional states. If nothing else, I've seen Wally be excited, and then his "I'm having fun!" expression when he dog laughs (a forceful and on purpose hah hah hah hah sound)
> 
> Likewise I've seen him "pout" (go away, flop on the ground, and grunt) or snort and groan when he's annoyed by something, or low growl and wave his tail from the middle to his left (avoidance axis).
> 
> Seems like more than just positive/negative. Seems more detailed/granular than that?


I dunno either. I suppose until we can create a dog who can speak english, we'll NEVER know. I've asked people IRL "are you OK?" because they look stressed. If they say yes, either I'm misreading or they're lying, kwim? I have a heck of a time trying to read people let alone dogs, lol.
I've seen dogs in the shop look happy, sad, anxious, nervous, tense, relieved, worried, mad...today I groomed a golden who walked in looking happy and relaxed. She looked nervous in a crate. She was tense when I was trimming her feet (ears back, almost grimacing). When I was drying her, she was worried and tense as a board. When the blow dryer stopped, she looked relieved (relaxed, her expression softened, she even shook off). When I put her on the table, she looked anxious. Back in the cage, anxious. Into the office to see her owners, she looked relieved. (Another full body shake; not uncommon.) I groom an adorable border collie who's getting up there with some arthritis. Without thinking, I picked up her foot. It took her by surprise and she turned and bit my hand (soft mouthed...not a mark on me). I can't explain it any other way, but the dog looked HORRIFIED when she realized she bit my hand. She wouldn't even look at me for awhile. She looked embarassed and ashamed. Humanizing, maybe. But, it's easier for me to deal with dogs in this manner (groomers, when you think about it, are very pushy in a dogs' POV) when I can think they are anxious instead of negative, worried instead of negative, relaxed instead of happy, etc. Make sense? (Probably not, lol!)


----------



## KBLover

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> but i think it's shortsighted to define them in human terms for the reasons stated above.


Then what would you call them, instead of just positive/negative states?

The dogs aren't telling us what names they are. 

So I should just say "when Wally is making his hah hah hah hah sound" instead of saying "when Wally is amused and wants to keep playing?"

If that hah hah hah means he's amused and having fun, is there a problem with calling it - a sign of being amused, just like calming signals are signs of anxiety, stress, or feeling social pressure?


----------



## LazyGRanch713

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> clarification
> 
> positive and negative emotional states in multiple variations
> 
> like happy is a positive emotional state. so is amused. there's more than one variety of positive emotional state and more than one type of negative emotional state
> 
> but i think it's shortsighted to define them in human terms for the reasons stated above.


When I think of a dog that looks amused, I think of nordics. They ALWAYS look slightly amused, especially when they're doing something that's driving you up a wall


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

KBLover said:


> Then what would you call them, instead of just positive/negative states?
> 
> The dogs aren't telling us what names they are.
> 
> So I should just say "when Wally is making his hah hah hah hah sound" instead of saying "when Wally is amused and wants to keep playing?"
> 
> If that hah hah hah means he's amused and having fun, is there a problem with calling it - a sign of being amused, just like calming signals are signs of anxiety, stress, or feeling social pressure?


i dont personally give them names. I know how to tell when there's a good feeling and when there's a negative feeling and that's enough for me..personally speaking.


----------



## KBLover

LazyGRanch713 said:


> That's such a sticky question
> I consider myself balanced, sort of. I use aversives and won't deny it. BUT--the aversives depend on the dog. If I collar popped Tag and said "KNOCK IT OFF!" he'd shut down; I can guarantee it. If I collar popped Auz and yelled "KNOCK IT OFF!" he'd probably look at me, wag his tail, and continue doing what he was doing. I'm not nuts about introducing aversives until you're in the proofing stage, though. A good example is Tag and his pause table. He has done an automatic down/wait until I release since he was 6 months old. Last night, I put him on his pause table in the kitchen and gav Dude a biscuit. Tag broke. I stopped and stared at him silently. He looked at me for a minute, got back into position. That was enough of an aversive for him.
> I heard once that a balanced trainer is someone who balances a clicker on their e-collar remote. That IMO is a crappy way to look at it.



I seem to ask a lot of sticky questions 

But, see, that whole description sounds like what a lot of trainers do, perhaps all (the good) trainers do.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

KBLover said:


> I seem to ask a lot of sticky questions
> 
> But, see, that whole description sounds like what a lot of trainers do, perhaps all (the good) trainers do.


Which is why I steer cleer of anyone who calls themself "purely positive" as much as I steer clear from people who advertise their training program as "BE THE BOSS/ALPHA/DOMINANT ONE". Both are BS IMO.


----------



## wvasko

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i halfway agree with both you and Cesar on the bolded bit.
> 
> but i look at it from a slightly more sciencey viewpoint.
> 
> put it this way, dog brains do not function like human brains. there's bits we have that they dont...and there's bits they have that we dont.
> 
> Put a bunch of biology nerds in a room and tell them to start speculating on things like exobiology and one of the first things you hear(least i did when i was in the room)..is that different brains would define emotions differently. this can be applied also in a sense to species related differences. So no..i dont think they get jealous, feel happy and sad, get angry, etc...BUT
> 
> i do think they have positive and negative emotional states.


I got to go along with the sciency view and definitely positive/negative emotions as that's pretty much no-brainer. The sciency view can be bounced around etc but makes sense to me. Since I'm pretty much a no-brainer myself, what more can I say.


----------



## KBLover

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i dont personally give them names. I know how to tell when there's a good feeling and when there's a negative feeling and that's enough for me..personally speaking.


Sure, I can too (which is why I asked 'just 2 emotional states?') because I see varying degrees as the meter swings back and forth.

However, if someone asked, "what is he feeling when his tail as wagging only half way to the right and his ears are forward and he's panting?" 

Would saying "a positive emotion" explain it well enough? Or leave the person with more questions than answers? (How positive? Very positive? Really happy? Etc)

Just curious.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

further clarification

what im basically saying is that dog "happy" may not mean the same thing as human "happy". like...it may not have the same associations or ramifications that that particular neurochemical has for us. the feeling might be different..the triggers DEFINTELY are different(when was the last time the smell of poop made you jump for joy ?lol) and the way they percieve the feeling may be different. 

its a rather strange concept to wrap your head around but if you think about it..it makes logical sense



KBLover said:


> Sure, I can too (which is why I asked 'just 2 emotional states?') because I see varying degrees as the meter swings back and forth.
> 
> However, if someone asked, "what is he feeling when his tail as wagging only half way to the right and his ears are forward and he's panting?"
> 
> Would saying "a positive emotion" explain it well enough? Or leave the person with more questions than answers? (How positive? Very positive? Really happy? Etc)
> 
> Just curious.


like..for explanation's sake..ill use the words to other people..but i dont think of it in those terms


----------



## LazyGRanch713

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> further clarification
> 
> what im basically saying is that dog "happy" may not mean the same thing as human "happy". like...it may not have the same associations or ramifications that that particular neurochemical has for us. the feeling might be different..the triggers DEFINTELY are different(when was the last time the smell of poop made you jump for joy ?lol) and the way they percieve the feeling may be different.
> 
> its a rather strange concept to wrap your head around but if you think about it..it makes logical sense
> 
> 
> 
> like..for explanation's sake..ill use the words to other people..but i dont think of it in those terms


It is logical, and makes sense. But it hasn't totally sank into my mind, kwim?


----------



## KBLover

wvasko said:


> I got to go along with the sciency view and definitely positive/negative emotions as that's pretty much no-brainer. The sciency view can be bounced around etc but makes sense to me. Since I'm pretty much a no-brainer myself, what more can I say.



Heh, but I want more details, more specifics, more granular ways to judge it. 

I mean, just grouping all of Wally's expressions as positive/negative - that seems to broad-brushed. I want to take advantage of every slight change, little detail, ear flick, movement, inaction, etc, to truly read what he's feeling.

A general science view doesn't seem to do it for me (maybe I'm too dumb to see it). 

It's part of why I latched on to shaping, because I can take every tiny drop of small movement towards something and use it. 

I guess I want more than what's currently known. Like how exactly his memories get stored so I can more quickly teach him something by using it, making my OC work with him even more effective because it matches his learning style, and given Wally's a diva that's very sensitive to emotions as much as anything else, I want every small detail and step so I can maximize his development.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the feeling might be different..the triggers DEFINTELY are different(when was the last time the smell of poop made you jump for joy ?lol) and the way they percieve the feeling may be different.


I'm sure it is, but I'm already in the mindset of looking at it from Wally's point of view, so, yeah, I can understand why he would feel happy/excited/etc when he picks up a scent of poop or the smell of a rat or dead bird, etc.

In fact, I use it - he likes those things so I premack it, etc.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

LazyGRanch713 said:


> It is logical, and makes sense. But it hasn't totally sank into my mind, kwim?


i know..it took me a long time to really be able to think of what Bolo was doing in those terms. One of the things that kinda solidified it in my mind was her aggression.

because..when you think of aggression you likely think of anger. being pissed off and lashing out.

but Bolo...when she's being aggressive...she gives off happy sorts of signals...she acts like the prospect of ripping a dog's throat out is the bestest funnest thing ever. there's no stress signals, nothing fearful or domineering about it..every sign points to her being aggressive = her being HAPPY. 

and ive met other dogs who've introduced a similar sort of cognitive dissonance to me. My sister's rat terrier..Paquita for example...she acts happily terrified. it's bizarre.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i know..it took me a long time to really be able to think of what Bolo was doing in those terms. One of the things that kinda solidified it in my mind was her aggression.
> 
> because..when you think of aggression you likely think of anger. being pissed off and lashing out.
> 
> but Bolo...when she's being aggressive...she gives off happy sorts of signals...she acts like the prospect of ripping a dog's throat out is the bestest funnest thing ever. there's no stress signals, nothing fearful or domineering about it..every sign points to her being aggressive = her being HAPPY.
> 
> and ive met other dogs who've introduced a similar sort of cognitive dissonance to me. My sister's rat terrier..Paquita for example...she acts happily terrified. it's bizarre.


I've seen a lot of bully breeds offer the "happy" signals when they want to rip another dogs' throat out. The APBT I saw when Tag was a pup...that dog looked THRILLED to see a little wriggly thing on a leash, and the intensity in that dogs' face was something I can't describe. Fixated, screaming, WAGGING TAIL, etc. It wasn't an "I want to play with the puppy" it was "I want to snap the puppy in two" expression, but I'll agree. Nothing angry about it. LGD's are a type who seem to get PO'ed when something is on their turf, though. It's not an "oh boy, I get to go chase some bad dude away", it's "What the hell do they think they're doing here?" I've seen bite trained dogs that seem too view the whole mess as a game, and others who seem to view it as serious. One GSD bitch I knew was working on a sleeve. When she "won", the helper slid the sleeve off and let the dog have it. She took the sleeve, spat it out, and lunged again (still on leash). It wasn't like "cool! A sleeve!" It was like "yeah, right, you SOB. I don't want to sleeve, I want YOU". 
I wonder if emotions are genetic, or environmental, or both. I know you can't change emotions, but you can suppress it or encourage it. It's kind of baffling.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I wonder if emotions are genetic, or environmental, or both. I know you can't change emotions, but you can suppress it or encourage it. It's kind of baffling.


the general (theoretical..with some evidence) consensus as i understand it is that its both. that genetics gives the framework while environment directs and fine tunes that framework. We know that emotional states have a chemical basis. and biological chemistry is coded by one's DNA. so there's no doubt that genes play a role..the extent of that role is what's uncertain


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I and a lot of others use that noise to make horses gallop. It's just a high pitched "SSS" sound, while tensing up. It really gets a lot of them going


Yep his *tsssst!* noise seems more appropreate for horses then dogs lmbo




> I can agree, I think CM has good intentions and is a natural handler. His methods (especially those in the early years) sucked IMO. I'm happy to see him changing and evolving and learning new techniques.


This I can also agree with, he doesn't seem as dominance(I know its not spelled right but I can't seem to remember my spelling today :redface:-crazy) like the episode where he worked with a dog that was afraid of the beach, that was a beautiful episode ii have to admit.



> A good example IMO was when his neck poking "Tsst" thing failed, a dog charged the door and CM was standing there, "tapping" and "touching" the dog with his foot to "snap him out of it" and the dog was so over threshold I don't even think the dog knew he was there. He changed his perspective and admitted it failed, so he used cheese instead and rewarded the dog for NOT charging the door.


I didn't actually see this, can you give me a little rundown on this particulr ep? I was without natgeo for a while & missed a season or 2.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

dogdragoness said:


> Yep his *tsssst!* noise seems more appropreate for horses then dogs lmbo
> 
> 
> 
> This I can also agree with, he doesn't seem as dominance(I know its not spelled right but I can't seem to remember my spelling today :redface:-crazy) like the episode where he worked with a dog that was afraid of the beach, that was a beautiful episode ii have to admit.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't actually see this, can you give me a little rundown on this particulr ep? I was without natgeo for a while & missed a season or 2.


The only thing I can remember is it was a DA boxer. It was the first sign I saw that things were changing with him, because I'd never seen CM use food before.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the general (theoretical..with some evidence) consensus as i understand it is that its both. that genetics gives the framework while environment directs and fine tunes that framework. We know that emotional states have a chemical basis. and biological chemistry is coded by one's DNA. so there's no doubt that genes play a role..the extent of that role is what's uncertain


I've always said genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger. (For temperament, etc). I would imagine emotions are the same. Dude gets almost crazy with excitement when it's time to go to work. I can tell him to calm down, and he'll sit and "look" calm, but the second I say "OK" and open the door he's off like a rocket. In that case I'm basically "masking" his emotions by asking him to cool it. It doesn't work. Even if I carry him out and set him down in his chair (something I tried to see if it would keep him from acting like such a loon), he's shaking with excitement and he morphs into a bottle rocket the second I put him down. I guess I liken this to human emotions as when someone tells their kid to stop crying; maybe the kid stops crying but what baggage does it create later in life? Does it solve the problem that caused the kid to cry in the first place? Heck no. I can tell my dogs to knock something off, and 99% of the time they do. If one of them are so far gone (over threshold) or so fearful that they don't listen, well...escalating my knock it off attitude certainly won't help and will probably breed more anxiety. (Scary thing = Mom getting PO'ed). 
I guess I'm just thinking out loud. I gotta stop that. Nasty habit.


----------



## LynnI

LazyGRanch713 said:


> The only thing I can remember is it was a DA boxer. It was the first sign I saw that things were changing with him, because I'd never seen CM use food before.
> 
> 
> 
> *I've always said genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger.* (For temperament, etc). I would imagine emotions are the same. Dude gets almost crazy with excitement when it's time to go to work. I can tell him to calm down, and he'll sit and "look" calm, but the second I say "OK" and open the door he's off like a rocket. In that case I'm basically "masking" his emotions by asking him to cool it. It doesn't work. Even if I carry him out and set him down in his chair (something I tried to see if it would keep him from acting like such a loon), he's shaking with excitement and he morphs into a bottle rocket the second I put him down. I guess I liken this to human emotions as when someone tells their kid to stop crying; maybe the kid stops crying but what baggage does it create later in life? Does it solve the problem that caused the kid to cry in the first place? Heck no. I can tell my dogs to knock something off, and 99% of the time they do. If one of them are so far gone (over threshold) or so fearful that they don't listen, well...escalating my knock it off attitude certainly won't help and will probably breed more anxiety. (Scary thing = Mom getting PO'ed).
> I guess I'm just thinking out loud. I gotta stop that. Nasty habit.


That ^^^^ is a great saying and so true!!


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## xxxxdogdragoness

I agree also lol.

Zim- I have to say also that a LOVE your siggy of your Bolo, but what does 'oh h/h' mean lol.

I agree also lol.

Zim- I have to say also that a LOVE your siggy of your Bolo, but what does 'oh h/h' mean lol.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Oh HAI! ...is the Bolo!


----------



## KBLover

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the general (theoretical..with some evidence) consensus as i understand it is that its both. that genetics gives the framework while environment directs and fine tunes that framework. We know that emotional states have a chemical basis. and biological chemistry is coded by one's DNA. so there's no doubt that genes play a role..the extent of that role is what's uncertain


How does counter-conditioning work then?

If genes determine the basis at the chemical level (which would mean that a fearful dog has some sort of chemical imbalance, which makes sense, especially if he's just born that way), how then does counter-conditioning work to negate, even cure fear issues? 

Is it actually stimulating the creation of whatever chemistry to neutralize the chemistry that creates fear?


----------



## Cracker

one word: neuroplasticity.

Neurons that fire together, wire together. Short version...the food raises serotonin and dopamine, pleasure hormones, if done repeatedly the pathways in the brain that WERE there (scary thing=flood of cortisol=fight or flight)are altered because of the change in chemicals...different neuronal paths are created and eventually you get (scary thing=flood of dopamine etc= calm dog).

And the happy aggression thing? Why do you think people play contact sports? The basketball court was the only place that I could/was allowed to be aggressive, powerful and take no prisoners...was I tough? You bet. Was I happy? As a pig in poop. Aggression releases dopamine too...this is why it's important for aggressive dogs not to be able to "practice" the behaviours through strict management while doing a beh. mod program...it becomes self rewarding.

If you are interested and want to keep it simple, The Brain that Changes Itself by Dr. Norman Doidge is pretty cool.

Zim, I don't know if I would postulate the emotional/chemical states are so different between humans and dogs...I think the base emotions are the same, but the triggers may be different based in their different sensory apparatus itself. I think they are not different, just not as complicated as human emotions because we THINK about the emotions, whereas the dogs just feel them...if that makes any sense. 

And to Jules:
I had a 85 percent free throw average. Do I get to be a goddess? LOL


----------



## Willowy

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Oh HAI! ...is the Bolo!


I have never been able to figure out if "hai" is used because it's the Japanese word for "yes" or if it's lolcats spelling for "hi" .

But yes. . .oh HAI! is da Bolo!


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Cracker said:


> one word: neuroplasticity.
> 
> Neurons that fire together, wire together. Short version...the food raises serotonin and dopamine, pleasure hormones, if done repeatedly the pathways in the brain that WERE there (scary thing=flood of cortisol=fight or flight)are altered because of the change in chemicals...different neuronal paths are created and eventually you get (scary thing=flood of dopamine etc= calm dog).


this is part of it but there's more to it than that. which would be a long convoluted and annoying posts to type. Ill pull up some links and post them in a bit.



> And the happy aggression thing? Why do you think people play contact sports? The basketball court was the only place that I could/was allowed to be aggressive, powerful and take no prisoners...was I tough? You bet. Was I happy? As a pig in poop. Aggression releases dopamine too...this is why it's important for aggressive dogs not to be able to "practice" the behaviours through strict management while doing a beh. mod program...it becomes self rewarding.


eh..disagree to an extent. agree to an extent. its not a game to bolo..that much is apparently obvious. its completely calculated. this isnt like.."Ooo i get to beat up another dog"

this is.."OMG if i get to kill that THING im gonna have an orgasm" to anthropomorphize for the sake of explanation. its not aggression at all but the behaviors LOOK like aggression. baring teeth, lunging...

the dopamine thing is spot on though. 



> Zim, I don't know if I would postulate the emotional/chemical states are so different between humans and dogs...I think the base emotions are the same, but the triggers may be different based in their different sensory apparatus itself. I think they are not different, just not as complicated as human emotions because we THINK about the emotions, whereas the dogs just feel them...if that makes any sense.


see..i take issue with that assumption because it still operates from a position of human exceptionalism. which is not a tenable position to my mind. We THINK we think and they just feel. but there's nothing concrete to prove it. 

like when i mentioned exobiology before..

there's a hypothesis that if we did come across intelligent life..we wouldnt know it. because we only know intelligence from our perspective of what intelligence is. of course it's just theory..but it's logically compelling. we use ourselves as a mechanism of contrast to judge how similar everything else is to us. but that's not necessarily a logical course of action. it's a sort of...well it makes sense from an operational perspective..but really it presents a series of potentially false comparisons. i agree with you...operationally lol...but not technically.


----------



## wvasko

> different neuronal paths are created and eventually you get (scary thing=flood of dopamine etc=


Well I don't know about that, but I'm getting the scary feeling, dope thing cause I don't have a clue as to what anybody's saying about anything. I suppose just 1 yr of high school is holding me back a bit. 

Yes Cracker 85% free throws indeed moves you to Goddess status.:clap2:


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness

Willowy said:


> I have never been able to figure out if "hai" is used because it's the Japanese word for "yes" or if it's lolcats spelling for "hi" .
> 
> But yes. . .oh HAI! is da Bolo!


Yeah, that's what I was wondering as well lol. It is a nice siggy though.

Neurons are involved now eh? When I started this thread I didn't expect it to get so... scientific, lmbo.


----------



## Cracker

wvasko said:


> Well I don't know about that, but I'm getting the scary feeling, dope thing cause I don't have a clue as to what anybody's saying about anything. I suppose just 1 yr of high school is holding me back a bit.


I only have highschool myself Wvasko, it's just an area of interest I find fascinating and a big part of what I enjoy in learning how people and animals "work". 




> Yes Cracker 85% free throws indeed moves you to Goddess status.:clap2


Whoohooo!
Man I miss playing....


----------



## wvasko

Cracker said:


> I only have highschool myself Wvasko, it's just an area of interest I find fascinating and a big part of what I enjoy in learning how people and animals "work".
> 
> Whoohooo!
> Man I miss playing....


Well I would have gone into sophomore yr but dad was there and I thought I should let him graduate 1st and just never went back. It would have been tough eating dinner at night had I passed him.


----------



## Elana55

I have stayed off this thread (I tend to when the thread gets away from actual dogs and into some other.. academic type place...). 

I will say this. At one time I thought about fostering Pit bulls because there are so many in shelters and they seem good dogs. However, reading this thread and about the Happy Aggression toward their own species (and yes, I have seen exactly this) I will never have a PBT in my kennel. Ever. 

Yes.. I agree.. the aggression does really make 'em happy (when it is there.. problem is you do not know if and when it is there until it surfaces because the breed also is known for not giving typical signals). I have seen other dogs show what looks like aggression and it is really just a love of killing. It is called prey drive. Typically they do not show prey drive with their own species. Prey drive looks different than aggression. One is a desire to kill. The other is more of a challenge type thing. Of course, most of what people call aggression is really fear based. Prey Drive and true Aggression are not and they look different from each other and different from Fear Aggression. The prey drive that some PBT's show toward their own breed and species is something I do not want to have or deal with. I do like their biddable nature but that is of no value when it is coupled with the other.

Formal Education is not all it is cracked up to be. All Formal education should do is better prepare you for the REAL education you get thru the business of learning to live. I have a ton of the formal education. Life taught me more.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Elana55 said:


> I have stayed off this thread (I tend to when the thread gets away from actual dogs and into some other.. academic type place...).
> 
> I will say this. At one time I thought about fostering Pit bulls because there are so many in shelters and they seem good dogs. However, reading this thread and about the Happy Aggression toward their own species (and yes, I have seen exactly this) I will never have a PBT in my kennel. Ever.


two of the dogs Ive met like that have been German Shepherds. You gonna get rid of your GSD now? What's the point of posting this? 


> Yes.. I agree.. the aggression does really make 'em happy (when it is there.. problem is you do not know if and when it is there until it surfaces because the breed also is known for not giving typical signals). I have seen other dogs show what looks like aggression and it is really just a love of killing. It is called prey drive. Typically they do not show prey drive with their own species. Prey drive looks different than aggression. One is a desire to kill. The other is more of a challenge type thing. Of course, most of what people call aggression is really fear based. Prey Drive and true Aggression are not and they look different from each other and different from Fear Aggression. The prey drive that some PBT's show toward their own breed and species is something I do not want to have or deal with.


firstly...TYPICAL signals...typical would be the operative word there. doesnt mean there are none.
secondly...what i wrote was just the first example of what Ive been noticing. once i started taking a step back from trying to define dogs in human terms, i started noticing things. and not just with pit bulls
thirdly.."when coupled with the other it has no value"

gonna have to call bs. granted what im referring to is situation specific but it DEFINATELY has value. I took Bolo on a nature run and we got attacked by a pack of strays. Her aggression..coupled with her biddability...saved my life. so yeah..I think it has it's uses.

I do like their biddable nature but that is of no value when it is coupled with the other.



> Formal Education is not all it is cracked up to be. All Formal education should do is better prepare you for the REAL education you get thru the business of learning to live. I have a ton of the formal education. Life taught me more.


i dont get the point of you saying this. first of all..formal education has got me miles farther than any of "the business of learning to live" ive been through has. formal education has opened the possibility of exploring the world with new eyes and being able to see truth without bias or emotional baggage. 

and i may be young, but Ive had more experience with more mind boggling things than many people in their 40's and up. amount of experience is irrelevent. QUALITY of experience is worth listening to. 

just my two shiny pennies.


----------



## KBLover

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> its not aggression at all but the behaviors LOOK like aggression. baring teeth, lunging...


Perhaps she feels like she's gonna get a chance to fulfill her instincts - which of course would make a dog happy...er I mean...have some state of emotion that's on the positive side of neutral.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> see..i take issue with that assumption because it still operates from a position of human exceptionalism. which is not a tenable position to my mind. We THINK we think and they just feel. but there's nothing concrete to prove it.
> 
> like when i mentioned exobiology before..
> 
> there's a hypothesis that if we did come across intelligent life..we wouldnt know it. because we only know intelligence from our perspective of what intelligence is. of course it's just theory..but it's logically compelling. we use ourselves as a mechanism of contrast to judge how similar everything else is to us. but that's not necessarily a logical course of action. it's a sort of...well it makes sense from an operational perspective..but really it presents a series of potentially false comparisons. i agree with you...operationally lol...but not technically.




None of this makes an ounce of sense to me LOL

I have never heard the word exceptionalism in my life. 

And operationally it might be wrong, but when it comes to the day-to-day interactions with Wally, I'll go with it, even if it doesn't pass scientific muster. I don't see what the harm is either. (Again, maybe I'm too dumb), especially if someone holds the view that they are looking from the dog's side as much as possible. 

We will never have concrete absolute proof anyway unless dogs evolve the ability to speak in human words which we can then translate across our languages. 

So I'll just take the fact the Wally isn't thinking "I'm gonna feel happy" but just does feel happy (which follows classical conditioning theory otherwise, it would be an operant process and we've said time and time again on this forum that emotions are not an operant, i.e. "I decide to..." process). I believe he can remember what makes him feel a certain way, which again follows classical conditioning - that's how markers work. 

So if I'm technically wrong, fine. I'll accept that. I'm technically wrong when I say Wally learns as well with or without a clicker even if I'm shaping or whatever, but it's what I see.


----------



## Elana55

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> two of the dogs Ive met like that have been German Shepherds. You gonna get rid of your GSD now? What's the point of posting this?
> 
> 
> firstly...TYPICAL signals...typical would be the operative word there. doesnt mean there are none.
> secondly...what i wrote was just the first example of what Ive been noticing. once i started taking a step back from trying to define dogs in human terms, i started noticing things. and not just with pit bulls
> thirdly.."when coupled with the other it has no value"
> 
> gonna have to call bs. granted what im referring to is situation specific but it DEFINATELY has value. _*I took Bolo on a nature run and we got attacked by a pack of strays. Her aggression..coupled with her biddability...saved my life*. so yeah_..I think it has it's uses.


 My turn to call BS..... 



> i dont get the point of you saying this. first of all..formal education has got me miles farther than any of "the business of learning to live" ive been through has. formal education has opened the possibility of exploring the world with new eyes and being able to see truth without bias or emotional baggage.
> 
> and i may be young, but Ive had more experience with more mind boggling things than many people in their 40's and up. amount of experience is irrelevent. QUALITY of experience is worth listening to.
> 
> just my two shiny pennies.


Not saying it is bad to get an education and I support anyone getting one. It is a great start on the real business of learning and looks good when you gotta get a job that pays real money.... and it can be interesting to get an education. I certainly have done plenty of that. 

That being said, some of the smartest folks I know don't have formal educations.. and some of the real genius found in history can often be found outside of formal academia. BTW I had to go get the thing formally as I am not even remotely genius material.... Except to my cats. They find real genius in my ability to get those cans open! 

It was just part of the previous discussion with Cracker and Wvasko.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

If we're talking aggression = happy or sad and prey drive = happy or sad, I gotta throw in stock dogs. They certainly look like they're being "aggressive" with stock, and a BC who routinely grips is pretty useless on sheep. But from what I understand herding is modified prey drive.


----------



## KBLover

LazyGRanch713 said:


> If we're talking aggression = happy or sad and prey drive = happy or sad, I gotta throw in stock dogs. They certainly look like they're being "aggressive" with stock, and a BC who routinely grips is pretty useless on sheep. But from what I understand herding is modified prey drive.


Why would prey drive make a dog sad?

Wouldn't it be fun/exciting/fulfilling for a dog, a predator/scavenger, to be in the role of predator? Most dog games utilize prey drive. Tug let's the dog bite and grip. Chase is prey drive (and the best heeling Wally ever does LOL). 

Heck, I bet when I pull his hair, squeak a toy, make like the toy is moving around and getting him that's probably prey drive - and he loves every minute 

Yeah, I've heard herding is the prey sequence...except for the catch and kill part.

Though, I've also read that all the "obedience commands" are modified from prey/hunting behaviors. Drop (dog lie in wait for prey), stay (freezing), heeling (chase position), etc, which is part of why they learn it - it's just asking them to activate instinctive behaviors - like we're teaching them how we hunt and when it works (we give them food) they remember it. Meanwhile, recall isn't, which is why it can be difficult. It's actually a behavior he has to learn to do and do it by cutting off the other instinct-type behaviors.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

Why would prey drive make a dog sad?

Wouldn't it be fun/exciting/fulfilling for a dog, a predator/scavenger, to be in the role of predator? Most dog games utilize prey drive. Tug let's the dog bite and grip. Chase is prey drive (and the best heeling Wally ever does LOL). 

*Well, if you want to get technical (like this thread hasn't already) prey drive COULD make a dog "sad" in a way if they had a well timed punishment history with an owner who watches them like a hawk. I suppose this is why CC works; but in this sense I guess it could work against you. You could use CC for counter condition something you don't like for something worse, if it makes any sense. (Why anyone would actively want to is beyond me).*

Heck, I bet when I pull his hair, squeak a toy, make like the toy is moving around and getting him that's probably prey drive - and he loves every minute 

Yeah, I've heard herding is the prey sequence...except for the catch and kill part.

Though, I've also read that all the "obedience commands" are modified from prey/hunting behaviors. Drop (dog lie in wait for prey), stay (freezing), heeling (chase position), etc, which is part of why they learn it - it's just asking them to activate instinctive behaviors - like we're teaching them how we hunt and when it works (we give them food) they remember it. Meanwhile, recall isn't, which is why it can be difficult. It's actually a behavior he has to learn to do and do it by cutting off the other instinct-type behaviors.


*Auz learned a recall very well by activating chase/grab/shake/"kill" games with the ropey. A successful "recall" (a promp) in the early stages taught him that trotting towards me when I asked him to gave him a great predatory energy burner. And not only that, the recall is immediate and fast. Auz is a bit of a nimrod, but his recall is fan-freakin'-tastic 
Tag learned a recall through food aquisition, which is high on his list of priorities  Just like Auz, it was a prompt in the early stages, and later on it was a game of slots. The odds were good, but not 100%, but sometimes he got something really really good. I don't think a (successful) recall is cut-and-dried going away from their instincts; it's more about manipulating those instincts. The sad thing is, most dogs view a recall as ending something fun and starting something yucky, so they learn to tune it out, and become "leash wise". (Then there's the whole contingency change thing. A recall from the living room to the kitchen is a whole nothing ballgame from calling your dog out of a heated game with his buddies.) Then you get the whole "he KNOWS what "come" means, because he comes when I call him in the yard/house/etc"...*


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness

KBLover said:


> Yeah, I've heard herding is the prey sequence...except for the catch and kill part.


Yes I have heard this as well & it is. When Izze goes after the guinea (spelling???) Fowl we have here, we use her to keep the birds away from the barns & buildings because they poop on everything & the boss along with me thinks its gross lol. She doesn't 'actively' kill them, even if she corners them against a fence & they are unable to escape, she manuvers herself to give them an escape in the desired position all with very little direction from me anymore. 

She did need direction from me at first in order to show her which way in any given situation depending on the birds' position as to scatter them in the right direction away from the buildings & into the pasture. She learned remarkably well & quick because she most like learned so quickly because she realized that scattering the birds, cows, whatever in the desired direction it makes mom very happy lol.


----------



## JohnHouse

MissMutt said:


> I had a conversation with him a while ago through Facebook messaging (weird, I know).


Note that Bradley can't separate adjectives from nouns in this conversation and immediately answers her initial questions with a question that is a false accusation; he cries/whines that he's been "called a name" when all that's been applied here is descriptors. His actions were called cowardly and you said so, but he assumes you've called him a coward. Trademark nutjob Bradley.



Xeph said:


> I give Cesar credit for at least caring about his clients and the dog. I don't agree with his methods either, but HE truly wants to help. Pattinson is overcompensating for everything he lacks (a good personality, a soul, a....well, you get the point).


Your opinion of Cesar "caring" might be changed a bit once you learn of the lawsuits surrounding him and after a viewing of "Mine!" (a documentary about Katrina dogs). I used to have a blah opinion of Millan, but after "Mine!" I just wanted to smack the Stupid out of him. He's nothing but a "celebrity" in all senses of the vapid, Hollywood term.

I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm sure there's some good stuff in it. Bradley always provides for some big LOLz. Yes, the guy has threatened to sue and HAS sued for libel. He can only seem to successfully put a lawsuit into motion in Canada (but those lawsuits are sitting there, burning up time and his money...the people I know who've been sued haven't heard anything in a couple of months); in the U.S. he would have to bring forth suit under American libel laws, which are much more protective of free speech, so Americans can say just about whatever they want about his methods (and him, LOL...provided it falls under protected speech).

His lawyer, Joe, had threatened to "track me down" so that he could serve me with cease and desist papers. That was in June and I've yet to see any Canadian Mounties rapping on my door asking "Anybody in this hoos, eh?" I've also made some pretty sweet connections that I think has Bradley backing off...can't really talk about them here but Bradley knows what I'm talking about.

Ah yes, there's also that thing about his conviction for theft, which we CAN talk about because the information is readily available online if you know where to look for it. Brad Pattison was convicted of theft, and the story is is that he "allegedly" stole a dog from a competing dog daycare (this is when he had his Yuppy Puppy crap) and then lied about it/tried to turn it into the local SPCA "as a stray". 

Brad Pattison is, by all observational accounts, something of a sociopath.

BTW, just a quick note...you should all read _Do Dogs Laugh?: Where Dogs Come From, What We Know About Them, and What They Think About Us _by Jake Page. It's so very EXCELLENT a book that I would recommend it to anyone wanting to learn more about dogs and their relationship to man, and how we influenced their relationships and evolution with us.


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## Cracker

Hey John,
I was at a local dogwalkers Christmas get together the other night and met a couple who had gone to see Brad at the university here (I'm not sure which university) a year or so ago and were both incredibly disappointed with it. I didn't get a lot of details, but he did at one point go off stage after getting a whisper in his ear and came back with a picture of a man and asked the audience if anyone knew him and that he was a stalker....was he talking about you? Too bad I didn't have a chance to get into more of a convo with this walker...I was very interested in what Brad had to say and how the audience reacted. Maybe if I see this guy again, but he's not a walker in my usual parks so it may have been a one off.

And I agree, that book is a good one. I really enjoyed reading it and it is a keeper in my library.


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## MissMutt

> Note that Bradley can't separate adjectives from nouns in this conversation and immediately answers her initial questions with a question that is a false accusation; he cries/whines that he's been "called a name" when all that's been applied here is descriptors. His actions were called cowardly and you said so, but he assumes you've called him a coward. Trademark nutjob Bradley.


Good point!

Where can I find "Mine!"? That's not the episode he did with the Katrina dogs, is it?


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## JohnHouse

No, I'm not his stalker. I think that guy is from Canada and also posts under a totally different handle (and has other things to say about Bradley than I do). My goal is to educate the public against his terrible ignorance and lead them towards better training solutions for their four-legged canine companions...and that requires telling the truth about Bradley himself (because his "education" about the very subject that he's trying to teach to others is very, very relevant).

I was, however, mentioned during his seminar in Hamilton in...May, I believe. He whined and cried about how I and some other Big Meanies were saying baaaaad things about him on Facebook. As far as I know, Bradley HAD very vague ideas of who *I* was (I was the creator of Real Trainers Don't Heed In the Doghouse on Facebook), even going so far as to telling people that I 1) didn't exist or 2) didn't really live in the United States. I think he did at one point believe I was someone else, but hopefully now he should know that I AM an American Californian who DOES exist and who will help get his stupid ass off the air so that he can't infect any more innocent/well-meaning brains with his outdated, Middle Ages sentiments about dog training.

I dunno where you can find "Mine!" but yes, it's about the Katrina dogs. That "main dog" that they focused on into the post-production updates is the dog that Cesar Millan didn't really give a crap about after he paraded him in front of his cameras for a "special episode". Millan & Co. did next to nothing after that show was aired to reunite that dog with his owner, whose helper had repeatedly called the Millan's show to tell them that she knew where his owner was and the owner was wanting him back.


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## Corinthian

JohnHouse said:


> I haven't read this entire thread, but I'm sure there's some good stuff in it. Bradley always provides for some big LOLz. Yes, the guy has threatened to sue and HAS sued for libel. He can only seem to successfully put a lawsuit into motion in Canada (but those lawsuits are sitting there, burning up time and his money...the people I know who've been sued haven't heard anything in a couple of months).


I wish he'd sue me. I would give me the opportunity to get him deposed under oath and force him to answer questions about his stupid claims and demonstrable lies. I'd love to force him to sit and provide evidence for so many of his lies... I'd squash the little turd. 

So Pattison Entertainment, I am available to be sued... please contact me.

Though, John I think you are wrong. No one has been sued in Canada, only threatened and that is often enough to silence people.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Corinthian said:


> I wish he'd sue me. I would give me the opportunity to get him deposed under oath and force him to answer questions about his stupid claims and demonstrable lies. I'd love to force him to sit and provide evidence for so many of his lies... I'd squash the little turd.
> 
> So Pattison Entertainment, I am available to be sued... please contact me.
> 
> Though, John I think you are wrong. No one has been sued in Canada, only threatened and that is often enough to silence people.


People have in fact been sued. John isnt just speaking out of his bum..


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## Corinthian

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> People have in fact been sued. John isnt just speaking out of his bum..


I wouldn't accuse John of rectal verbiage. 

Just that I know several people that have been *threatened* with lawsuits, none that were ever sued. Do you have names?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Corinthian said:


> I wouldn't accuse John of rectal verbiage.
> 
> Just that I know several people that have been *threatened* with lawsuits, none that were ever sued. Do you have names?


i have more information on this but due to circumstances...i really shouldnt be talking about it here.


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## Corinthian

Lawsuits are public so I don't see the problem.... I have instititional access to this stuff and I couldn't find anything.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Corinthian said:


> Lawsuits are public so I don't see the problem.... I have instititional access to this stuff and I couldn't find anything.


Ive been asked not to.


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## xxxxdogdragoness

Corinthian said:


> Though, John I think you are wrong. No one has been sued in Canada, only threatened and that is often enough to silence people.


Not me lol, I'm a free american. That noise might work in canada, but now here... we know our rights


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## Corinthian

dogdragoness said:


> Not me lol, I'm a free american. That noise might work in canada, but now here... we know our rights


The nuisance lawsuit is a good way to get compliance from people, specially if one side has the money to burn in legal fees. Monsanto often employs this approach against farmers. It occurs in every country.


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## MindyLove

dogdragoness said:


> Not me lol, I'm a free american. That noise might work in canada, but now here... we know our rights


Damn right! Bring it on! He is a disgrace to trainers and a poor excuse for a man to treat any animal like that, and to force his views onto others and threaten them when they disagree. I am not okay with that kind of treatment toward any animal and would have no qualms expressing that to him. Those video's made me so sad. Just what we need is an idiot like that taking advantage of people who come asking for help with their dogs, he takes their money, and ends up making the dog even worse. Increasing the chances the dog may become aggressive toward their owner or a human being someday. Shame on him!


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## xxxxdogdragoness

MindyLove said:


> Damn right! Bring it on! He is a disgrace to trainers and a poor excuse for a man to treat any animal like that, and to force his views onto others and threaten them when they disagree. I am not okay with that kind of treatment toward any animal and would have no qualms expressing that to him. Those video's made me so sad. Just what we need is an idiot like that taking advantage of people who come asking for help with their dogs, he takes their money, and ends up making the dog even worse. Increasing the chances the dog may become aggressive toward their owner or a human being someday. Shame on him!


Lol my 'free american' comment was not meant as an insult toward our friends to the north. What I was getting at is I'm not familiar with canada's constution on free speech &/or freedom of the press laws but here in USA his BS threats of lawsuit for posting vids & CHATTING about him & his ABUSIVE methods, not to mention the fact that he should be turned in to the proper athorities for his techniques & actions toward animals. Sorry braddy boy, I'm a free american & I KNOW my rights to free speech & I think you are an animal abusier... stuff THAT into your arrogant pipe & smoke it!!!:rockon:


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## LazyGRanch713

dogdragoness said:


> Lol my 'free american' comment was not meant as an insult toward our friends to the north. What I was getting at is I'm not familiar with canada's constution on free speech &/or freedom of the press laws but here in USA *his BS threats of lawsuit for posting vids & CHATTING about him & his ABUSIVE methods, not to mention the fact that he should be turned in to the proper athorities for his techniques & actions toward animals. Sorry braddy boy, I'm a free american & I KNOW my rights to free speech & I think you are an animal abusier... stuff THAT into your arrogant pipe & smoke it!!*!:rockon:


Awh, come on. Tell us how you REALLY feel about Brad ;D


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## KBLover

Corinthian said:


> The nuisance lawsuit is a good way to get compliance from people, specially if one side has the money to burn in legal fees. Monsanto often employs this approach against farmers. It occurs in every country.



Yeah, exactly. In America, a lot of the times your rights are equal to the amount of money you can spend defending them.

Sure, I could defend myself against a lawsuit - but I'm not made of money. I can't even get Wally a new dog bed for Xmas, let alone survive the financial burden of a dragged out legal process.

Sure, the Constitution says we have the right to free speech (within limits) but if someone is challenging if what I said was in those limits or not, they have the right to do so and I'll have to spend $$$ defending my position.

In a pure capitalistic society, of which America is pretty close, $$$ matters nearly as much as the rights the Constitution grants.


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## xxxxdogdragoness

True & I get what you are saying about our society but threatening to sue someone for theior opinion is a fribolous (spelling???) To me, the vids he *might* be able to get away with... unless the person whose dog he was working with was the one that posted the the vid, then the same rights might apply.

I know one thong though, he can google my posts all he wants & threaten me all he wants, I will consult a lawyer friend of mine for some free legal advice if need be, but a threat of a lawsuit is just that... a _threat_ & nothing more.


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## LazyGRanch713

dogdragoness said:


> True & I get what you are saying about our society but threatening to sue someone for theior opinion is a fribolous (spelling???) To me, the vids he *might* be able to get away with... unless the person whose dog he was working with was the one that posted the the vid, then the same rights might apply.
> 
> I know one thong though, he can google my posts all he wants & threaten me all he wants, I will consult a lawyer friend of mine for some free legal advice if need be, but a threat of a lawsuit is just that... a _threat_ & nothing more.


The thing is, I don't see how posting "I think this guy is abusive" on a public internet forum is grounds for a lawsuit...I suppose in the sue-happy society it could be slander or whatnot, but it just seems like someone who's good at what they do wouldn't have the time to file a bunch of weak and bogus lawsuits. 
Anyhow, I'd like to see him on Judge Judy.


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## sassafras

Libel and slander are actually fairly narrowly defined, under U.S. law anyway, and actually not that easy to prove.


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## KBLover

LazyGRanch713 said:


> The thing is, I don't see how posting "I think this guy is abusive" on a public internet forum is grounds for a lawsuit...I suppose in the sue-happy society it could be slander or whatnot, but it just seems like someone who's good at what they do wouldn't have the time to file a bunch of weak and bogus lawsuits


As far as I understand, all they have to do is prove that the statements are false and given with malicious intent.

Granted, proving intent is never easy, it's not out of the realm of possibility.

I mean, one online baseball league I was in - the commissioner was sued because it was called the "Crackerjack Baseball League" for trademark infringement. Nothing really came of it but it cost him money and he didn't want to deal with it again. 

So if something as inane as a fake baseball league with fake baseball being "played" - A "Brad Pattison is a loser and is purely crap as a dog trainer" seems at least equally likely.

The problem Brad would run into more than anything else is that people could pull learning theory and what not and scientifically proven training methods and show that the stuff he pulls is NOT training. It's violence, and it wouldn't be an "opinion" if it's backed up with scientifically accepted and proven studies. The onus would be on his side to discredit the studies and science OR show he is doing the same thing. 

Good luck with that.


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## Marvin

What videos show is that he uses only agresive methods. This is clearly observed in guys that doesn't know how to call the dog attention snd asume his alpha role.
Unfortunately there are many pseudo-professionals who gain popularity by the media when they really are just improvised guys and I suggest using the same means to reveal this lies and the harm they make to dogs.


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## xxxxdogdragoness

Yeah I neverthought about if he were to sue any of us, we could threaten him back with evidence of his abusive methods & the emotional damage it causes.

Hey that gives me an idea, perhaps Dateline, MSNBC or, perhaps Nancy Grace could do a 'cruelty revealed' story on him lol

Yeah I neverthought about if he were to sue any of us, we could threaten him back with evidence of his abusive methods & the emotional damage it causes.

Hey that gives me an idea, perhaps Dateline, MSNBC or, perhaps Nancy Grace could do a 'cruelty revealed' story on him lol


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## LazyGRanch713

Marvin said:


> What videos show is that he uses only agresive methods. This is clearly observed in guys that doesn't know how to call the dog attention snd asume his alpha role.
> Unfortunately there are many pseudo-professionals who gain popularity by the media when they really are just improvised guys and I suggest using the same means to reveal this lies and the harm they make to dogs.


...what?


(tooshort)


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## Lindbert

Um...I don't believe I'm saying this.. perhaps Mr. Pattison isn't THAT bad. I've spent the evening reading all of the posts from "Martin Richling" on this forum (http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t59638/ or http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t60365/) and came across this gem:



> I have a question. Some members who have read your book say that you advocate half-drowning dogs and beating them with a stave to correct them for things like digging. Is this true and when and where would you use it? How often? Do you use it with many of your clients?
> __________________
> The dog should THINK that it is drowning. It is not half-drowned. The stave is used on its butt to sting the dog. I have used this method 3 times in 26 years with very hard dogs. Other dogs were corrected with other measures not as hard. Hard dogs do sometimes require hard measures.


People REALLY let a "trainer" nearly drown their dog and hit it with a stick? REALLY?!?!


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## Willowy

Lindbert said:


> People REALLY let a "trainer" nearly drown their dog and hit it with a stick? REALLY?!?!


Pretty sure Pattison would do the same. . .and Koehler recommended hanging your dog until it was dizzy from lack of oxygen and puking from being choked. Lovely. People will let "trainers" get away with horrible things. And will take the recommendations of any fool who calls himself a trainer.


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## Lindbert

I've seen hanging first-hand and was actually forced to implement it in one instance when I was an apprentice trainer for a service dog organization. Needless to say, that was the day I put in my notice. What I don't understand is you can find a million and a half clients of such horrific training methods willing to give praise and testimony on how great the methods work, yet you can never find clients who object to it. It's not just famous trainers too, we have some pretty horrific local trainers that are ALWAYS recommended to me when I mention I have a dog with a bite history. Makes me wonder how these "trainers" treat the owners who object to the methods.


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## xxxxdogdragoness

Lindbert said:


> I've seen hanging first-hand and was actually forced to implement it in one instance when I was an apprentice trainer for a service dog organization. Needless to say, that was the day I put in my notice. What I don't understand is you can find a million and a half clients of such horrific training methods willing to give praise and testimony on how great the methods work, yet you can never find clients who object to it. It's not just famous trainers too, we have some pretty horrific local trainers that are ALWAYS recommended to me when I mention I have a dog with a bite history. Makes me wonder how these "trainers" treat the owners who object to the methods.


Yep, I have seen my share of bad local trainers as well. Some of which worked for petsmart when they first opened!.


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