# Protien levels in Orijen food



## Mrs.C (Sep 19, 2009)

I've been reading a lot about Orijen and it sounds like a great food. However, I am a little concerned about the protien level being 40%. I've read protien levels that high aren't for small dogs....or not to worry as long as it's from a good source of protien...or it's o.k. as long as the dog is healthy to begin with. On the other hand, I've also heard too much protien can cause liver and/or kidney problems. My dogs are under 12 pounds and healthy, should I be worried? 

Their other food, Acana, has a lower protien level. Would this be a better food to try for smaller dogs?


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## nac1089 (Jan 18, 2009)

Mrs.C said:


> I've been reading a lot about Orijen and it sounds like a great food. However, I am a little concerned about the protien level being 40%. I've read protien levels that high aren't for small dogs....or not to worry as long as it's from a good source of protien...or it's o.k. as long as the dog is healthy to begin with. On the other hand, I've also heard too much protien can cause liver and/or kidney problems. My dogs are under 12 pounds and healthy, should I be worried?
> 
> Their other food, Acana, has a lower protien level. Would this be a better food to try for smaller dogs?



My dog is around 9lbs & I'm currently feeding her Innova EVO which has 42% protein. As long as your dog currently doesn't have any liver/kidney issues, then the high protein shouldn't be a problem. High protein is usually a concern with large breed puppies. It can cause them to grow too fast and cause hip displasia, etc. I also plan on trying TOTW and Orijen, all of which have protein that's a bit higher. All in all, I wouldn't worry about it and give it a try. My dog has been eating EVO for quite a few months now and has done wonderful on it.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

High protein doesn't cause liver or kidney problems you need to adjust the level and type of protein fed if the dog has a problem. High protein is natural for dogs. It is the high calcium and phosphorus levels in the super premium foods that is bad for large breed dogs. The bones grow too fast and can cause problems. Just be sure the dog drinks enough water no matter what kibble you choose.


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## lightforce18 (May 6, 2009)

I wanted to feed my dog orijen but the High Protien scared me off. I figured I would stick with the Wellness Large Breed stuff till hes an adult. Dog food Analysis say dont use the high protein stuff for puppies so I listened to them.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

She doesn't say that her dogs are puppies. She just says that they are small dogs.

I think higher protein foods are just as good for small dogs as large dogs. Orijen is a great food, so I'd say go for it!


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## merrow (Feb 18, 2007)

zea mays is in the origen is this not a grain im sure its a form of maize if any one could but me right would be grate help


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Please stop worrying about high protein (complete diets) for dogs. This is really old school crap. Your dog should be eating a very high protein, low carb (zero grain) kibble and Orijen is arguably the best. The BEST food for a dog period is a balanced RAW diet. (Think how much protein that is)

Everyone needs to start thinking "wolf" when they feed their dogs.



lightforce18 said:


> I wanted to feed my dog orijen but the High Protien scared me off. I figured I would stick with the Wellness Large Breed stuff till hes an adult. Dog food Analysis say dont use the high protein stuff for puppies so I listened to them.



Wrong! I have a Bullmastiff and ALWAYS it's been the train of thought to keep them on a low protein diet so they don't grow so fast . It's not the protein that's the issue.

READ:
http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/Myths_of_High_Protein.pdf


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

merrow said:


> zea mays is in the origen is this not a grain im sure its a form of maize if any one could but me right would be grate help


Actually I think they took it out when they revised formulas a while back.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

You are right...there is no zea mays in Orijen or Acana since they changed the formulas.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Not all dogs are going to do well on High protein low carb grain free diets. Especially performance dogs so don't fool yourself and feed into the hype of these fad diets. Feed what your dog does well on and you can afford.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

What do you mean performance dogs? I know many people that feed their agility dogs high protein, low carb. I know 2 sled dog teams that exclusively use high protein kibble for their dogs. So I think performance dogs do better on high protein.

I know some house dogs that don't too well on it though because they can never burn off that much energy and they end up having loose stool or gain too much weight or something.

But I do agree with you, feed your dogs what you can afford and they do well on. Some highest quality dog food doesn't work well with all dogs.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Agility is over in less than a minute. Sled dogs do well on high protein for recovery but they also need high carbs and fat for endurance. 
My personal feelings are that the little fluff ball that is in the house all day watching animal planet has no need for a 42% food.

Just my opinion. I'm sure others feel different. 
Even for my own dogs Orijen couldn't hold up. Yes I've tried for 6 months plus and didn't get results I would expect.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

shets114 said:


> Agility is over in less than a minute.


That's true during the competition. But during daily practice, the trainer near me does 2 hr training per dog. 2 hrs of doing agility courses is a heck of a long time and quite tiring.

And I haven't personally heard of any sled dogs on high carb food. Fat works much better for endurance because they are metabolized slowly. Also it helps the dogs retain water. Also most sled dogs are fed raw and no carbs at all, high fat and high protein. Believe me I would know since I visit sled teams in Whistler almost every year...

Edit: I'm not denying that every dog should eat high protein high fat. Lots of dogs don't do well on it. From my personal experience, our 3 dogs does great on it. Absolutely fantastic, poops very little and has great energy. Actually it's the only food that I can keep my dog on a good weight with. I used to feed Innova and Wellness but she was always a little underweight. After switching to Orijen, she's the perfect weight and she maintains it well. I'm switching to EVO right now because I'm changing protein sources but I think high protein is currently working well for my dog and I will continue to use it.

She is a house dog and I don't believe all house dogs don't need high protein. My dog is very active though 2 hrs running a day and fetching in the house, etc.

Of course different people agree on different things. Some people like Pedigree and swear by it while others say it's not edible and would rather feed their dogs table scraps.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

shets114 said:


> Not all dogs are going to do well on High protein low carb grain free diets. Especially performance dogs so don't fool yourself and feed into the hype of these fad diets. Feed what your dog does well on and you can afford.


It's funny you should say that. High protein, grain free foods are hardly a "fad diet" -- they're what dogs have been eating since they were wolves.

The "fad diet" is actually the recent use of grains in dog food. Dog are carnivorous, and they do not eat grains naturally. Grains are used in dog and cat food to bulk them up and cut costs.

ETA: There are low-cost grain free alternatives as well, like Taste of the Wild.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Actually, dogs do eat grains, while everyone considers them carnivoires even wolves and other canines eat grains. 
When a kill is taken all the animal will be utilized and that also includes the stomach and contents. Most animals that are taken are grazers, so they do get grains and carbs in their diet. 
I always get a kick out of the dogs are wolves approach. 

Most of todays dogs wouldn't stand a chance if born in the wild or returned to the wild to live like a wolf.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

I didn't say dogs are wolves, although you can interpret what I wrote however you like.

I said that their digestive systems are carnivorous and have been that way since canines existed.

And saying that dogs eat grains (and should eat dog food that is MOSTLY grains, with minimal meat content) because they _may_ eat the stomach contents of the animals they kill is like saying I eat bugs because sometimes they fly in my mouth when I'm riding my bike. In other words, it's silly.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I agree they do need some carbs. But Nia gets her carbs from potatoes or sweet potatoes and sometimes pumpkin or squash. Other times she gets fruits and veggies.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

I also didn't say that dogs should eat food with mostly grain, but to say a dog shouldn't eat grain isn't correct either.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

shets114 said:


> I also didn't say that dogs should eat food with mostly grain, but to say a dog shouldn't eat grain isn't correct either.


All the foods with grain that I've looked at contain a ridiculously high proportions of those grains to meat. I wouldn't be opposed to some grains in small quantities, but most grocery store pet foods contain more grains than meat. They also typically contain low quality grains and grain particulates. I think that dogs should eat mostly meat.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

The consumer really has no knowledge of the amount of meat in a product. Just because a food may list several meat sources doesn't mean that there is more meat then one with only one of two. 
Some high prices grain free diets actually have less meat than some lower cost foods. It is just hidden with alternatives to grain and smart marketing.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

shets114 said:


> The consumer really has no knowledge of the amount of meat in a product. Just because a food may list several meat sources doesn't mean that there is more meat then one with only one of two.
> Some high prices grain free diets actually have less meat than some lower cost foods. It is just hidden with alternatives to grain and smart marketing.


Wrong again. The order that the ingredients are listed in is in the order of how much is in the product. And the best way to know the proportions is the check the protein percentage. Orijen and most other grain-free foods are around 42% protein. (Certain ones, like acana's grain free alternative and wellness core have a lower percentage.)

As for this: "Some high prices grain free diets actually have less meat than some lower cost foods." Can you find me a single example of this? You are completely wrong. Check the percentages.


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## STPFAN (Sep 27, 2009)

bully said:


> Please stop worrying about high protein (complete diets) for dogs. This is really old school crap. Your dog should be eating a very high protein, low carb (zero grain) kibble and Orijen is arguably the best. The BEST food for a dog period is a balanced RAW diet. (Think how much protein that is)
> 
> Everyone needs to start thinking "wolf" when they feed their dogs.
> 
> ...


Bully is right..."The BEST food for a dog period is a balanced RAW diet."

There is a big difference in protein from raw natural diets as opposed to the protein in dry kibbled form!

Hope you guys understand what I'm saying...

The "protein" dogs are biologically-designed to eat is supposed to come in the form of RAW TISSUE. Raw tissue is 70% water, and more than this, raw tissue contains natural enzymes that aid the dog in digestion. Therefore, when a dog eats raw tissue, he not only has plenty of fluids inherent in his meal, but he also has the aid of enzymes to help him process this meal. 

A dog's kidneys are essentially "filters," through which nitrogeneous waste (protein waste) gets processed and excreted through the urine. When the dog eats raw tissue, the abundance of water and enzymes HELP the dog digest the meat, which in turn means there is MINIMAL waste that has to be processed through the kidneys. 

Well, when we feed kibble (especially super-high-protein kibble), instead of feeding your dog what it's supposed to eat (raw flesh), you are feeding it highly cooked proteins, with all the water removed, and with all of the natural enzymes destroyed because of the cooking process. And if you add to this the fact that *most* of the proteins used in these high-protein concoctions come from "corn glutens," etc. (which the dogs can't even digest properly), this means that these high protein feeds become CONCENTRATED TRASH that your dog does NOT process fully ... and therefore your dog has AN ABUNDANCE OF UNPROCESSED PROTEIN TRASH he now has to filter out of his body via the kidneys. 

In any filtration system, when you have an abundance of garbage going through the filter, and a state of not enough water to help it pass, you have the recipe for a CLOGGED filter. 

And when those filters are your dog's kidneys, those kidneys will begin to labor harder and harder to get all of that excess "protein trash" out of your dog ... every damned day of its life that you feed this stuff ... and eventually, over time, this repeated exertion will start to clog those kidneys up. 

And the signs will be obvious ... 

Your dog will start drinking an assload of water all day ... and he will be trying to pee and pee and pee every other minute ... and what this should tell anyone with a clue is that the dog's kidneys are getting tied up. Sadly, however, most people have no clue. 

What will then follow are urinary tract infections from the continual dehydration and effort, kidney infections, and eventually a total shutdown of the kidneys altogether. 

So go ahead and feed those super-high-protein kibbles ... and scratch your head as to "why" your dog keeps drinking so damned much, and pissing so damned much ... but just be aware that the reason he is doing so is because YOU are killing him by feeding him way too much protein in dry kibbled form. 

As for some people who "say" different, let them say what they want. Physicists "say" that the bumble bee shouldn't be able to fly either, but fly they do. 

Just watch any dog that gets fed a super-high-protein dry kibble ... and every last one of them will be drinking a bucket of water a day, and pissing every other minute, and that is because their kidneys are being forced to work overtime every damned day of their lives, thanks to their owner placing them under this kind of stress with that kind of kibble.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Well wrong again. Protein percentage has absolutely nothing to do with % of meat. Ingredient lists are listed by the amount of the product but don't tell the entire truth about exactly how much meat is included as fed. 
For example which one of the following contains more meat as fed.

Chicken Deboned, Chicken Meal, Potato Dehydrated, Turkey Meal, Canola Oil, Sweet Potato Dehydrated, (preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a source of Vitamin C), Yeast Culture, Natural Dried Chicken Liver, Dicalcium Phosphate, Lysine, Guar Gum, Sea Salt, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Acai Berry Freeze-Dried, Blueberry Dried, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Venison Broth, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Natural Venison Flavor, Chicory Root, Marigold Extract, Rosemary Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium

Or 

Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Beet Pulp, Rice Bran, Sunflower Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flax Seed, Dried Egg Product, Brewers Yeast, Salt, Potassium


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

STPFAN said:


> Well, when we feed kibble (especially super-high-protein kibble), instead of feeding your dog what it's supposed to eat (raw flesh), you are feeding it highly cooked proteins, with all the water removed, and with all of the natural enzymes destroyed because of the cooking process. _And if you add to this the fact that *most* of the proteins used in these high-protein concoctions come from "corn glutens," etc._ (which the dogs can't even digest properly), this means that these high protein feeds become CONCENTRATED TRASH that your dog does NOT process fully ...


It's almost comical how wrong you are. Do you even know what protein is? High protein foods are the foods that DON'T have loads of corn and other low quality grains in them! The higher levels of protein in grain-free foods are from the increased amounts of _meat_.

You're right that raw is the best. But if you're going to feed kibble, grain-free is the closest to raw in that it is primarily meat.



> And when those filters are your dog's kidneys, those kidneys will begin to labor harder and harder to get all of that excess "protein trash" out of your dog ... every damned day of its life that you feed this stuff ... and eventually, over time, this repeated exertion will start to clog those kidneys up.
> 
> And the signs will be obvious ...
> 
> Your dog will start drinking an assload of water all day ... and he will be trying to pee and pee and pee every other minute ... and what this should tell anyone with a clue is that the dog's kidneys are getting tied up. Sadly, however, most people have no clue.


What? What on earth are you talking about? One minute you are saying that raw is the best, and the next moment you are saying that dogs can't handle protein! Get a grip. Read up on basic nutrition before you start posting this stuff on a forum.



> So go ahead and feed those super-high-protein kibbles ... and scratch your head as to "why" your dog keeps drinking so damned much, and pissing so damned much ... but just be aware that the reason he is doing so is because YOU are killing him by feeding him way too much protein in dry kibbled form.


Ha. I assure you that I have been feeding grain free foods to my dog and cats for years, and they have never been in better health. They drink the same amount of water and pee the same amount, but they poop far less. ANYONE on this forum who feeds grain free dog food will tell you: it makes them poop less because it isn't packed with grains that they can't even digest properly.

Perhaps you are mistakenly confusing human digestion with canine digestion. It has been shown that extremely high protein diets (higher even than what most Americans eat, which is estimated to be 3 times higher than the necessary amount of protein daily), like those of some people on the atkins diet, can cause kidney damage in humans. But dogs are ... drum roll ... a different species! They are carnivores! Their digestive tracts are completely different than ours.



shets114 said:


> Well wrong again. *Protein percentage has absolutely nothing to do with % of meat*. Ingredient lists are listed by the amount of the product but don't tell the entire truth about exactly how much meat is included as fed.


Um, are you aware that meat is packed with protein?

Oh, man. I'm not even going to post again after this, because arguing with you guys is just too absurd.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Canteloupe just trying to explain that the guaranteed analysis on a dog food say 42-25 doesn't mean that there is 42% meat.
Also unless specifically written out on the bag the amount of meat that is contained. The average person is not going to know the true contents of meat.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

shets114 said:


> Canteloupe just trying to explain that the guaranteed analysis on a dog food say 42-25 doesn't mean that there is 42% meat.
> Also unless specifically written out on the bag the amount of meat that is contained. The average person is not going to know the true contents of meat.


Oh, okay. You're right about that. But a food that has 42% protein invariably (as far as I've seen) has more meat than a food with 21% protein (*gasp*) like Alpo Prime Cuts. (I picked this food totally at random from all the 1 star reviews on dogfoodanalysis.com.) The first ingredient of Alpo Prime Cuts? (Which is a rather ironic name, I think.) It's ground yellow corn.

ETA: I want to apologize for being kind of rude in my last couple posts. Right or wrong, I shouldn't have been so antagonistic. Sorry about that.


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## STPFAN (Sep 27, 2009)

I knew this was going to get interesting! LOL!
Raw meat consist of 70% water....what do you think the actual protein % is in a pc chicken thigh?
Raw meat also has natural enzymes...these enzymes are destroyed in the extruding process.
Trust me...digesting dry meat protein from kibble is a lot harder to digest than the natural protein from raw meat.

Go ahead and believe that "it's false." Feed your dogs the highest protein dry kibble feed you can buy ... and let me know how long your animals live. 

But mark my words, most of your dogs will never see their 9th birthday. Many will die by the time they're 5 and 6 ... especially if you live in a cold area where they don't drink much water.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

STPFAN said:


> I knew this was going to get interesting! LOL!
> Raw meat consist of 70% water....what do you think the actual protein % is in a pc chicken thigh?
> Raw meat also has natural enzymes...these enzymes are destroyed in the extruding process.
> Trust me...digesting dry meat protein from kibble is a lot harder to digest than the natural protein from raw meat.
> ...


I do agree that high protein foods are a little harder to digest and that's why some people add a lot of water to the kibble before feeding. 

However I don't believe the dogs will die by 5 or 6. I know my friend's dog has been eating high protein for at least 5 or 6 years and her dog is already 13 years old and perfectly healthy in every vet exam.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

STPFAN said:


> I knew this was going to get interesting! LOL!
> Raw meat consist of 70% water....what do you think the actual protein % is in a pc chicken thigh?
> Raw meat also has natural enzymes...these enzymes are destroyed in the extruding process.
> Trust me...digesting dry meat protein from kibble is a lot harder to digest than the natural protein from raw meat.
> ...


Heh. 

Your powers of predilection aside, I think I'll stick with common sense and nutritional facts.

No one here has disputed that raw is the best, that I've noticed. What we are arguing about is whether grain-free, high protein kibbles are better than grainy, low protein kibbles, or vice versa.


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## STPFAN (Sep 27, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> Your powers of predilection aside, I think I'll stick with the nutritional facts.
> 
> No one here has disputed that raw is the best, that I've noticed. What we are arguing about is whether grain-free, high protein kibbles are better than grainy, low protein kibbles, or vice versa.



Well between the two, its a given...not disputing that arguement!

I'm just sayin...high protein kibbles in a dry form, robbed of its natural enzyme and moisture are harmful and don't compare to that of a raw natural diet!


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## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

For most people, feeding raw is very inconvenient. Orijen is a great alternative to raw. I agree a raw diet is best, but I believe that foods like Orijen can provide many of the same nutrients. I do believe supplements are needed, like probiotics, enzymes, and fish oils.


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## STPFAN (Sep 27, 2009)

PureMutt said:


> For most people, feeding raw is very inconvenient. Orijen is a great alternative to raw. I agree a raw diet is best, but I believe that foods like Orijen can provide many of the same nutrients. I do believe supplements are needed, like probiotics, enzymes, and fish oils.


Are you serious? How could you compare cooked dry kibble to a natural raw diet?


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## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

I did say that I believe raw diet is the best. But I do believe that you can get many, NOT ALL of the same nutrients. NOT Benefits. I also believe in order to acheive many of beneifts of raw, one must do supplementing. When feeding raw alone, one would NOT need supplements.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

PureMutt said:


> I did say that I believe raw diet is the best. But I do believe that you can get many, NOT ALL of the same nutrients. NOT Benefits. I also believe in order to acheive many of beneifts of raw, one must do supplementing. When feeding raw alone, one would NOT need supplements.


What supplements do you recommend adding? All I did when I fed Orijen was give some fruits + veg, and yogurt for probiotics.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

Not to dredge this up again, but because I'm feeding Orijen, I'm interested now:

So is STPFAN saying that because the essential amino acids are destroyed when the kibbles are steamed, that a high-protein kibble can destroy kidneys? Then what is the alternative? A low-protein kibble? 

Please don't continuously say RAW because for some (if not most) of us, it's just not a viable option - I live in an apartment and the thought of a dog thrashing a piece of raw buffalo bone around my couch where I nap is quite disconcerting.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

dieterherzog said:


> Not to dredge this up again, but because I'm feeding Orijen, I'm interested now:
> 
> So is STPFAN saying that because the essential amino acids are destroyed when the kibbles are steamed, that a high-protein kibble can destroy kidneys? Then what is the alternative? A low-protein kibble?
> 
> Please don't continuously say RAW because for some (if not most) of us, it's just not a viable option - I live in an apartment and the thought of a dog thrashing a piece of raw buffalo bone around my couch where I nap is quite disconcerting.


That's not necessarily what feeding raw is always like. You can buy frozen patties or nuggets and feed out of a dish just like feeding kibble


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Dieselsmama said:


> That's not necessarily what feeding raw is always like. You can buy frozen patties or nuggets and feed out of a dish just like feeding kibble


Some people can't afford those patties. Here, they're about $30 for 2-3 lbs. Especially if you have big dogs, it really drains the wallet!

Other dogs don't seem to like them...I actually bought one and tried it on Nia once, she doesn't like the taste of them or something because she licked them a few times and then didn't eat it. I offered it again as a 2nd meal (after I put it back in the fridge of course) and she refused it again... I ended up returning it and changing to Orijen.


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