# Choke Chain IS NOT working for her!



## Sheeba&Kiril<3 (Mar 16, 2007)

I've just started to leash train my two pit-labs with very different results.
I'm using a choke chain on both of them, but the boy, after two days, is willing to have the leash on his neck, and being led around.
The girl, on the other hand, refuses to be as amable. When I just hold the chain taught with a cookie in her line of sight, she just thrashes around and almost chokes herself. It's getting hard to figure out how to train her properly.
Any help?


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## Meghan&Pedro (Nov 6, 2006)

I strongly recommend doing puppy obedience.

It's a great way to tune up on your skills, as well as have a trainer there to problem solve as you run into problems.

It is also a great chance to socialize your pups with people and other dogs.

There's nothing to beat a good trainer with a group obedience class to get good foundation training on your dogs.

Meghan


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Why are you using a choke chain?!?! 

If your just starting leash training, a choke chain is NOT needed.

Choke chains are PROVEN to cause a lot of tracheal damage.

My advice is STOP using the choke RIGHT AWAY!

Practice the walk the other way method with a plain flat buckled collar.

Do a search of this forum. There are plenty of threads that do NOT require the use of a choke chain.

I've seen what your talking about with your bitch and it is NOT safe.

She *IS* choking herself, and there's no need.

Stop using the choke before you cause some serious damage.


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## Aussiefan (Jan 21, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Why are you using a choke chain?!?!
> 
> If your just starting leash training, a choke chain is NOT needed.
> 
> ...



Actually, i have seen more damage done with a flat buckle collar then training collars. ANY collar can be harmful or fatal if not used properly. My advice is like a previous poster mentioned and enroll in a obedience class. Many trainers let you try different training collars that they supply (that you have to give back at the end of class) so you can figure out what type of collar will best suit your needs while training, that way you don't have to spend over a hundred dollars buying a bunch of collars trying to figure it out. Back to the flat collar topic, i knew someone that was dead set against using a pinch/chain/head collars, they thought those were cruel, well the dog would constantly pull so hard on its flat collar one day that it actually passed out and nearly died. They became pro pinch collar after that. Every different type of collar out there has there place, different dogs require different collars while training.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

*I'm sorry but I CANNOT agree with that at ALL.

There IS NO WAY that a flat buckle collar can cause more damage than a choke, the OP already said that her dog is seriously resisiting the choke.

It would be a different story if the dog was responding to the aversive and stopped pulling but this IS NOT THE CASE.

My trainer WILL NOT reccomend ANY type of "training collar" until the positive methods has been exhausted.

NO GOOD trainer will.*

Edit to add: The OP didn't mention using a pinch, but IMO, pinch collars have NO place WHATSOEVER in OB training. WIth serious issues perhaps, but other than that, the pinch should be left for working in bitesports.

Edit again: No offence, but just because I CANNOT believe the above post....

A flat buckle collar, combined with many of the methods posted here on this forum WILL BE MORE THAN ENOUGH for plain loose leash walking. If you insist on training collars a slip lead or voldhardt (which I use for advanced OB) will decrease the amount of damage (hopefull to none) because the collar, when fitted properly, is right behind the dogs ear, therefore exhibiting no pressure on the trachea.


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## Aussiefan (Jan 21, 2007)

Sheeba&Kiril<3 said:


> I've just started to leash train my two pit-labs with very different results.
> I'm using a choke chain on both of them, but the boy, after two days, is willing to have the leash on his neck, and being led around.
> The girl, on the other hand, refuses to be as amable. When I just hold the chain taught with a cookie in her line of sight, she just thrashes around and almost chokes herself. It's getting hard to figure out how to train her properly.
> Any help?


Like Meghan said and what i mentioned in my last post, obedience class is a great investment! If you are unable to do classes, i would try a pinch collar. If you have never used one, be sure to read up on them first. They are used much like a chain collar with a tug and release technique for your correction. You never want to keep constant pressure on it. Places like petco or petsmart also let you try different collars before buying. Good luck and let us know how its going.



Alpha said:


> *I'm sorry but I CANNOT agree with that at ALL.
> 
> There IS NO WAY that a flat buckle collar can cause more damage than a choke, the OP already said that her dog is seriously resisiting the choke.
> 
> ...



Sorry, but that is my opinion. EVERY collar out there has its place. I cannot deny what i have witnessed over the 30yrs of being around dogs, and dog trainers. My friends that work in vet clinics have seen the same things with flat collars. You have your opinion, and i have mine. Im not saying people have to use training collars forever, i use flat collars on all of my dogs...now that they are trained. I used chain collars when they were younger and in the training process. I will state this again, every collar has its place when used properly. EVERY (including a flat buckle) can be deadly if not used correctly.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

The neck is a very sensitive place on a dog, and in the wrong pressure point with too much pressure, any collar can be fatal. 

To the OP, I recommend an alternate approach in teaching your dog to walk on heel: Loose Leash Walking Using Positive Reinforcers - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Sheeba&Kiril<3 said:


> I've just started to leash train my two pit-labs with very different results.
> I'm using a choke chain on both of them, but the boy, after two days, is willing to have the leash on his neck, and being led around.
> The girl, on the other hand, refuses to be as amable. When I just hold the chain taught with a cookie in her line of sight, she just thrashes around and almost chokes herself. It's getting hard to figure out how to train her properly.
> Any help?



How old are your dogs?

Have you done any training with them (i.e., sit, down, stay, come)?

When I begin training for loose leash walking, I don't hold the leash at first, just let it drag, and pat my leg as I'm walking to get the dog to follow along. This is very easy with young puppies, who are only too happy to respond. Some older dogs will, some won't. Once used to the collar and leash, then I train to walk along with me - first in the house, then in the back yard, and then on our block, and so on. You want as few distractions as possible at first, and separate your two, so you're only working with one at a time.

Choke chain collars should not be used by handlers who aren't experienced in training. A less aversive collar would be the martingale, but there's really no reason to use anything other than a flat buckle collar. If you've never trained before, please enroll in a puppy kindergarden class with one dog at a time. Your relationship with your dog is at stake, and what happens when you're training can destroy it, or cement your bond. Remember, training should be FUN! For both you and the dog.


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## Gracie Doodle (Mar 13, 2007)

I have a shepherd/husk mix and he's a puller. I have tried to lease train him with positve reinforcement but to no avail. He was quick to learn all other training, the vet said pulling is in his blood and recommended a sporn collare (we call them walk ease) It has made life so much more enjoyable. We can take a nice long, enjoyable walk, where both of us enjoy it. And isn't one of the main reason we have dogs is to enjoy them! Try training her but if she is bull headed try a sporn collar. Here is a picture of one in case you are not familiar (of course, they come in different sizes):

http://www.heavenforpets.com/MLSGSC...ails/Halter-Sporn-Training-Black-Medium.aspx?

Hope it helps. Enjoy


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

You haven't told us how old your dogs are. Did u get your dogs used to the collar slowly, in stages. 1.let dog sniff collar - reward, 2.put collar on, take off - reward. Leave collar on for sort periods, take off - reward until dogs become used to collar. Only then try walking following CP's advice. We haven't used choke collars at my obedience club since 2000. For problem pullers we recomend a head halter or the new harnesses that attach at the dogs chest.
I've been to a couple of Ian Dunbar seminars & you'd do well to find some of his books & DVD's on dog training. Also Patricia McConnell.
Prong collars & shock collars are illegal in Australia.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

I for one do not like the choke chain, but if one is going to use a choke chain I recommend using a fur saver. How are you fitting the choke chain on your dog? Which size choke chain are you using? And I have to say the way you are using it is very wrong. You are setting up the dog to fell. 

Misuse of choke chains.
http://www.dogstuff.info/misuse_of_choke_chains_hawgood.html

What are you trying to accomplish?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

The mention of a haltie/gentle leader is a good one for older dogs who continue to pull.

For those who just want their dog to walk nicely for hikes or what not, the haltie works great!

My parents own a 110lb mastiff mix and after the first time using the haltie, he doesn't pull at all anymore.

I've heard that haltie's can cause back/neck injuries though, if the dog is running and gets caught at the end of the leash.

But IMO, a haltie causes less damage than a choke/pinch.


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## jeff_j1701 (Mar 16, 2007)

I've done my fair-share of dog training and I feel a haltie/gentle-leader has to be THE BEST training tool available.

And PLEASE!!!! get rid of the choke chain! Especially for any dog that has pit mixed with it.

Not that I'm against pits, as I also have a lab/pit cross, but pits are SO misunderstood by the average person and will probably assume that a pit with a choke-chain is dangerous. Pity.

And yes, please take your dog to at least one obedience class. I wish it was the law that all dog owners would have to take their dog to at least one class.

The training in an obedience class may not be needed (I taught my dogs more than the class - and better too!) but the socialization aspect of a class cannot be matched IMO.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Most of the lab owners I know (from the labrador message boards) perfer to use the prong collars on their dogs rather then choke chains. Both breeds have thick neck muscle and the prongs work a lot better.

If they are pups, I too, recommend you take them to puppy obedience classes.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

I think choke chains are dumb, but that is just me.


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## Aussiefan (Jan 21, 2007)

Captbob said:


> I think choke chains are dumb, but that is just me.


I think they are a great training tool when used properly, but that is just my opinion as well.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Aussiefan said:


> I think they are a great training tool when used properly, but that is just my opinion as well.


The vast majority of people I see using a choke chain, are doing just that do their dog..* Choking it!*!!!! I suppose they think that is a way to teach a dog...


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Captbob- I have to agree. Most people do not know how to use these tools.

There is a pitbull in my town I see walked everyday with a pinch collar.

Her neck is raw and bleeding, because the aversive is plainly and simply NOT working.

It obviously hurts her, she's bleeding! But does she continue to pull?

Yep, because they don't know how to use it, and simply, they probably don't need it.

Just some education is in order


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Captbob- I have to agree. Most people do not know how to use these tools.
> 
> There is a pitbull in my town I see walked everyday with a pinch collar.
> 
> ...


What is amazing is that there are people that condemn an E collar which is totally painless and a really quick way to train a dog , but recommend using a choke type collar.....  What do they use if the choke collar doesn't work, a Garrotte?


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Sheeba&Kiril<3 said:


> I've just started to leash train my two pit-labs with very different results.
> I'm using a choke chain on both of them, but the boy, after two days, is willing to have the leash on his neck, and being led around.
> The girl, on the other hand, refuses to be as amable. When I just hold the chain taught with a cookie in her line of sight, she just thrashes around and almost chokes herself. It's getting hard to figure out how to train her properly.
> Any help?


 I use a Choke Chain while training, and it doesn't sound like you are using it right. You should *NOT* be holding the chain tight! That is the easiest way to hurt your dog, and it doesn't teach them a single thing. It just makes them thrash all the more because they want to escape from the thing that is tightening around their neck. A Choke Chain is only to be tight for the spilt second that it takes to give a correction. And then a correction should only be given when your dog already knows what he is supposed to be doing. If you tell your dog sit and he doesn't comply, but he has know idea what sit means, you can't correct him for it. 

When I taught my Lab to walk on a leash, I had the Choke Chain on him, but I had it clipped so it wouldn't tighten. So it was basically a buckle collar. I loaded myself up with treats, clipped the leash on him, and let him buck and thrash to his hearts content. (He would go to the end of the leash and try to back out, then he would lay on the ground and just roll). I just started walking around the yard ignoring him while he was protesting being on the leash. I just kept talking to him in a happy voice while not looking at him, and then once he was a bit tired from all of the complaining, I showed him the treat. Then when he was walking without fuss, he got the treats. After walking for a short time without throwing a fit, I let him off the leash. Granted there were other ways to teach him, but that is what I did, and it worked. 
A less combative approach would probably be to just let your dog drag the leash around. That way it would be used to having it clipped onto its collar.

You also have to take into account your dog's personality. If your dog is extreamly stubborn or submissive, I've found that a Choke Chain isn't very effective. It takes a certain type of personality to take a correction and then learn from it. Submissive dogs shut down when corrected, and a stubborn dog doesn't care how many times it is corrected, it is going to do what it wants. 



> Captbob- I have to agree. Most people do not know how to use these tools.
> 
> There is a pitbull in my town I see walked everyday with a pinch collar.
> 
> ...


 Bleah. I hate it when I see people mistreating their dogs because they don't know how to freak'n use a training tool properly. A lady used a pinch collar on her GSD and she used it properly. The GSD was a very well behaved dog and it let the elderly lady control the pup better. I do believe the GSD went on to get her CGC title.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Why are you using a choke chain?!?!
> 
> If your just starting leash training, a choke chain is NOT needed.
> 
> ...


No, that is NOT true. Sorry, don't want to cause any disagreements, but.

First of all, "choke" chain is not the right term for it. It is a TRAINING collar. Yes, it CAN choke your dog, but that is people who don't know how to use it. NEVER EVER pull back on your dog when using a training collar. This is what causes all the trechael damage. To use the chain, first, make the loop so that it's in the P shape. This makes it so it's easier to let it loose around her neck, therefore you're not choking her. Start walking slowly, and if she goes somewhere you don't want her to go, to a snap and release. If you don't hear the snap, then you're pulling for too long, and this is what causes the damage. Just keep doing snaps and release, and she'll soon be walking next to you like an angel. Also, make sure to praise her when she IS walking nicely. This shows her what she's doing right, and the snap shows her what she's doing wrong. 

I KNOW that the flat collar technique is WAY longer to teach, and WAY harder for first time dog handlers.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Jaylie said:


> I KNOW that the flat collar technique is WAY longer to teach, and WAY harder for first time dog handlers.


You should probably qualify this by saying the flat collar technique takes way longer for you. Because if you mean using positive reinforcers takes longer, I would have to disagree. In fact, I would argue that aversives a much harder to perfect for the average handler.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

Okay then, the flat collar technique takes way longer for me.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Jaylie said:


> Okay then, the flat collar technique takes way longer for me.


 I'm just teasing you.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Jaylie, read the first post on this thread.

The OP said that her dog was struggling and resisting the aversive, therefore, IMO it's not being used properly. So to avoid further damage being done to the dog, a flat buckled collar would probably be safer.

With all the training I do with my guys, from agility, to advanced OB and now some pull work for sledding, I've never had to use a choke chain. I do use a similar aversive, but IMO, and from researching both, a slip lead is much safer.

Do what you will with your dogs, what I'm doing with mine is working just fine 

Sharing with the OP MY opinions on choke collars, and that opinion is not coming from a simple pet owner.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'm just teasing you.


That's alright! I understand!


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

Boy, you really started something with THIS topic!! lol.
As a professional dog trainer, my advise is to hire a trainer to train YOU to train your dogs in your home. You didn't say if your dogs have had any obedience training at all so I will presume they haven't. 
Walking on leash can be frustrating if you don't know how to do it properly and as you are finding out, you own two very powerful dogs. 
Even though several posters are telling you what to use and what NOT to use, the good thing is, there are many options out there for you as far as collars go. Not every collar is suitable for every dog, that's why there are so many different types. Some dogs don't require certain collars, some require a non-pulling harness, a prong collar, a flat buckle collar and so on. 
I am completely opposed to the use of choke chains. Choke chains are good for one thing. Attaching a name tag and a rabies tag to. Period. They aren't to be used for training. If you put a choke chain around your thigh and pull tightly, the chain will leave very ugly red marks. This is what the chain does to your dog. Many dogs have a natural tendency to pull and no matter what type of collar or harness they are wearing, they will still pull. A Siberian Husky was bred to pull sleds so naturally, they are pullers. I owned one years ago and it took awhile to teach her not to pull the leash.
Before you attempt to leash train your dogs, your dogs really need obedience training. The dogs need to learn that YOU are the pack leader and they need to learn to focus on you and the commands you are giving them. If your dogs obey commands, they should sit still while you put on the leash, wait at the door while you walk through it first, come when you call them outside and wait until you give them the command to go for a walk. 
I would like to give you some professional advise on handling two Pitts.
This breed as you know, has a bad reputation and it's sad that this has happened. Pitt Bulls are great dogs and with the right type of training, can be a wonderful family member. These dogs are powerful, many times very strong-willed, independent, intelligent, loyal and protective of their territory and owners. If these dogs are not shown who the pack leader is right away, they will take over that role and this isn't something you want. If you have an Alpha dog who exhibits dominance, you really need to be aware of this and not give her/him any chance to exhibit this. This means that you do not allow this dog to get on the furniture, walk through doorways first, don't allow this dog to own anything. Both of your dogs should respect you as the leader even if they aren't dominant at all. Dogs have a very keen sense of knowing if you are a strong pack leader or a weak one. Once they figure out that you are weak, they will take full advantage and walk all over you if you let them. Dogs also recognize an unstable pack leader. This means, a leader who is basically, 'wishy-washy'. Sometimes strong, sometimes weak. This is a built-in sense that dogs and wolves have and it's vital to the dynamics of the pack that the leader be a strong one. A weak leader will eventually be forced out of the pack or even killed. This is nature's way of keeping the species healthy, strong and lasting.
Please consult a reputable dog trainer in your area. Teaching yourself to train two dogs when you already own them will be frustrating and can actually be dangerous.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

Yes, dogs have the natural desire to pull, but that's if you're pulling back on them. That's how they train guide dogs to pull in the harness. They put them in it, and then pull back on the harness, and soon the guides are pulling all of the time. Humans have the same thing, just not as much. If someone comes up from behind you and pulls on you, your instinct would be to pull back. That is why, with the choke chain, you need to give CORRECTIONS instead of CHOKING her with it. As I said before!


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