# Any dangers to half raw, half kibble?



## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

I'm on another board and they are strongly advising me not to do half kibble and half raw. They won't tell me specifically why though... 
Are there any possible risks?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I have never understood this argument, it seems like complete baloney to me, but people have told me that they can't digest kibble and raw at the same rate. I don't buy it. I feed kibble, raw, and dehydrated.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Kayota said:


> I have never understood this argument, it seems like complete baloney to me, but people have told me that they can't digest kibble and raw at the same rate. I don't buy it. I feed kibble, raw, and dehydrated.


 I just don't get why not as long as they are separate meals a few hours apart (I would feed 10-12 hours apart). Then it all has plenty of time to digest!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Even then I don't really get it, honestly. It just makes no sense. Even if they do digest at different rates, well... I eat foods all the time that digest at different rates and have no ill side effects.


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

Saya is fed all raw, but gets kibble as low value treat also my own home made treat that has caned salmon, liver, heart, tongue plus oatmeal and buckwheat flour. 

Also gets honest kitchen as treat or small meal or cooked meal as treat, but not often. 

Bella is fed kibble, but gets raw two or four times as dinner instead of kibble so far Bella does fine. 

I started with chicken then introduced bits of organs, meat. 

I guess it depends on dog if their stomach is sensitive introduce things slowly especially organs.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Even then I don't really get it, honestly. It just makes no sense. Even if they do digest at different rates, well... I eat foods all the time that digest at different rates and have no ill side effects.


Agreed. I feed kibble and raw together all the time. It's a very common practice among mushers. The arguments I've seen against doing so make no rational sense whatsoever to me.

I'm sure some dogs have a problem with it. If yours does, don't do it. Otherwise, I don't think it matters even a little.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

It probably takes a long time for some dogs to be able to tolerate the mix. Even Sassy who took a couple weeks to transition to new kibbles tolerated a raw beef rib a week. Maybe doing something like that? Start with 1 raw meal a week, go to 2 and so on? Feeding mixed raw and kibble is a pretty old way to feed dogs. Originally kibble was a cheap supplement to dog meat and scraps. That old Animal Planet show on dog breeds showed foxhounds getting fed a mix of raw stuff and kibble spread out in a feeding room for the pack.

Since kibble is high in calcium and phosphorus it is important to limit the amount of bone fed and for me and my dogs bone is the most fun part of feeding raw. If your 50 pound dog would eat 3 chicken quarters a week fed all raw and 10% bone then you only get to feed 1 every 3-4 days or so maybe on half raw.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

She will be fed kibble in the morning (8:30-9am) and raw pre-made in the evening (around 8pm). She has a TOUGH stomach so I am truly not concerned with stomach upset at all. I'll be starting with chicken and turkey and then transitioning to beef and eventually unique proteins. 
This is the pre-made-- http://www.springmeadowsnaturalpetfood.com/ 
Feel free to let me know what you think of it!
She will also get full raw days once per week, consisting of a RMB and a boneless meat for dental health (example: turkey neck and a serving of green tripe). She has had turkey necks countless times and she does well with them. She has also had large servings of tripe and-- no ill effects. She is just not super sensitive.


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## TXTorres (Mar 31, 2013)

I consider this kind of a myth, but you've really gotta go with your gut feeling and decide what's best for your dog. As Sassafras stated, mushers commonly mix together kibble and raw meat in one meal and actively racing greyhounds are also usually fed a mix of kibble, raw meats, etc all together. 

I do not like dealing with raw in the AM, so they get their kibble in the AM and their raw in the PM. If I felt like mixing the two together, I would not be worried about it, unless I had a specific dog who had a tummy issue with it.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I'm just getting started on raw and feed kibble in the AM and raw in the PM, raw for both meals on the weekends to help speed the transition right now. Jubel's doing great with it so far.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

No its fine. Normally you hear about all these "dangers" from raw feeders, and the reason is they don't want you to feed dry food. It is part of the cult process. They make up all these stories to scare people.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I thought this myth was from kibble companies who are so concerned with the fragile nature of dog guts and upsetting the nutritional balance of the scientifically balanced kibble that mixing anything with kibble will cause malnutrition.


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

Could be mix of both crazy extremist rawbies and crazy kibble company? hehe

This morning Saya got beef tongue also got kibble as low value treat for being good at market and then lunch time a portion of honest kitchen zeal.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Soooo! I bought:
- 8 pounds of chicken pre-made
- 8 pounds of turkey pre-made 
- 10 pounds of beef pre-made (a lady in town has it made... the bone is mash instead of crushed and the ratio is 7%-10% bone/10% offal and 80-83% meat). She sells it for $2.50/pound can you BELIEVE that?) it is free range, grass fed cattle made by a professional abattoir. 
-an entire meaty turkey carcass for $2 and some free turkey hearts 
- 5 pounds of green tripe (gonna have fun cutting that up). 
All for just over $100! I have a great source


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

KuroSaya said:


> Could be mix of both crazy extremist rawbies and crazy kibble company? hehe
> 
> This morning Saya got beef tongue also got kibble as low value treat for being good at market and then lunch time a portion of honest kitchen zeal.


How do you figure low value? Kibble with 30% protein has twice the amount protein per gram as raw beef.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Bumper1 said:


> How do you figure low value? Kibble with 30% protein has twice the amount protein per gram as raw beef.


Low value treats vs high value treats means how desirable they are to the dog (so high value increases their motivation to work for the treat). So most dogs find kibble kinda average in value, most dogs find cheese and meat to be high value and very motivating. Great to use the high value treats for very important training like recall and easy to practice simple stuff like sit and down using a kibble meal.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> How do you figure low value? Kibble with 30% protein has twice the amount protein per gram as raw beef.


Most dogs don't think of kibble as a treat.
And... I don't see how dried up chunks of blah could have more protein than raw meat. Lol.



But it's fine. Some dogs with sensitive stomachs might have an issue with it, but Aleu has a sensitive stomach and she tolerates it fine.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

I use Royal Canin Labrador Kibble as training treats and have never noticed any difference in motivation. You should never vary treats with dogs while training....never ever ever. You are just teaching an undesirable behavior. The last thing I want is a dog deciding to obey because of the reward.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Most dogs don't think of kibble as a treat.
> And... I don't see how dried up chunks of blah could have more protein than raw meat. Lol.
> 
> 
> ...


Just do the math. 100 grams of 30% protein kibble has 30 grams of protein and 100 grams of fresh beef has 14 grams. LOLOLOL


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

HollowHeaven said:


> And... I don't see how dried up chunks of blah could have more protein than raw meat. Lol.


"per gram" being the key part of the sentence. Water weight of course. I think the raw in my freezer (whole prey ground) is about 16-17% protein by volume because it is like 70% water.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

And when you're training in a distracting environment and your dog decides chasing that squirrel is more rewarding than your kibble treats... well good luck with that.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Shell said:


> "per gram" being the key part of the sentence. Water weight of course. I think the raw in my freezer (whole prey ground) is about 16-17% protein by volume because it is like 70% water.


Thank you for not being a t*** about it, Shell.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Doubt dogs are working for protein as much as they are working for whatever is making up the flavor. Max loves egg yolk but not egg white for instance. When I share a hard cooked egg with him he holds out for the yolk. Fat and the minerals in yolk probably taste pretty good compared to white with a good amount of protein but not much else..


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Bumper1 said:


> I use Royal Canin Labrador Kibble as training treats and have never noticed any difference in motivation. You should never vary treats with dogs while training....never ever ever. You are just teaching an undesirable behavior. The last thing I want is a dog deciding to obey because of the reward.


What kind of dogs do you have? Have you had them since puppyhood (since getting an adult dog means working with some behaviors they have already learned)?

Using high value treats (and then appropriately fading/randomizing the treats) for very important actions or more difficult actions (like something scary to the dog) lets the dog know that THIS is worth doing. They might not always get a treat when they do said action, but by golly when they do, it is a treat worth waiting for. 

The more food motivated the dog, the easier it is to reward any action with something as simple as kibble. I find that using a different kibble than they eat for meals (especially a smelly fish based one) is a good reward since it tells them that they didn't just happen to get food, they got a _reward_ for an action.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

This really stayed on topic lol


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> No its fine. Normally you hear about all these "dangers" from raw feeders, and the reason is they don't want you to feed dry food. It is part of the cult process. They make up all these stories to scare people.


 I've missed you monstersdad!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Bumper1 said:


> I use Royal Canin Labrador Kibble as training treats and have never noticed any difference in motivation. You should never vary treats with dogs while training....never ever ever. You are just teaching an undesirable behavior. The last thing I want is a dog deciding to obey because of the reward.


LOL whut?

I train dogs/am around people trianing dogs to do various high level things. The overwhelming thought among any sports or working person is to have a variety of rewards and reward values up your sleeve- be that various types of food, different toys, whatever. If you think varying rewards means the dog is 'deciding to obey because of the reward' then you... don't understand dog training at all. 

Anyways, I feed whatever and whenever. Don't put much thought into what goes into which meal at which time. I feed variety and things I like. Dogs are doing just fine and handle any diet changes with complete ease.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Where'd that other thread go? With the "wolf" hybrid lady?


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

While I don't really consider being a raw feeder as being in a 'cult', I will say that in the past 6 or so years that I've been feeding raw as well as kibble, I have had negative side affects with one of my dogs eating raw too soon after eating kibble (it was an accident) it caused nothing more than a day of diarrhea, but I wouldn't say that it would kill any dog to mix raw/kibble. At one point I could see that feeding one right after another, like the experience I had, would cause digestive upset, but I hear of alot of people that mix raw/kibble with no issues, but I can't really comment. I'm not completely comfortable with the idea after the reaction I experienced before but then again each dog is very different.

I have however, fed a mix diet of raw/kibble on and off throughout the years but I space it roughly 10 - 12 hrs at different meals. Its just easier this way and I know my dogs can handle it. Normally through the winters I feed primarily %100 prey model raw with some premade occasionally when in a pinch, and in the summer months I tend to feed some premade raw and kibble/canned food as well a long with the odd prey model meal just for convenience purposes as summers are hectic for us and I have less time to prep meals or pick up PMR deliveries from my source here in AB. My 8 year old Shiba Inu has eaten primarily 50/50 raw and kibble diet most his life since 8 weeks old and he's done absolutely fine with it. However, I will note that his teeth definitely weren't in the greatest of shape until I started introducing prey model into his diet just over a year ago. Even in the summer months when I'm not feeding as much PMR, I still ensure to feed atleast 1 or 2 raw meaty bones a week to keep their teeth in good shape. 

So my only recommendation if you plan to stick with a 50/50 diet, just make sure to add in the boney meals like turkey necks, beef/pork ribs, bison/elk/beef necks, chicken quarters, drumsticks, etc on a weekly basis, and I think you'll be just fine! I would definitely encourage you as well, for cost purposes, because I know how expensive premade raw here is Canada, (I feed Carnivora for my go-to premade) to try and find cheap sources of raw meat/organs occasionally just to help keep costs down (like posting Kijiji add for unwanted/freezer burnt meats.. I've gotten alot of wild/game meats this way for free!)

Good luck!


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

HEY I KNOW YOU 

I feed my dogs raw and kibble

ETA: also i posted the raw/kibble thing a long time ago on the same site you posted on, and my responses(some from the same people posting on your thread) were completely different, it was more of a "If it works for your dog, great!" kind of thing


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> HEY I KNOW YOU
> 
> I feed my dogs raw and kibble
> 
> ETA: also i posted the raw/kibble thing a long time ago on the same site you posted on, and my responses(some from the same people posting on your thread) were completely different, it was more of a "If it works for your dog, great!" kind of thing


Hey you! lol
Yes that's what I've been reading! So far so good.... she had a bit of diarrhea the first day (as I tried tripe like a dummy), but now she is totally fine! Loves it


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

PackMomma said:


> While I don't really consider being a raw feeder as being in a 'cult', I will say that in the past 6 or so years that I've been feeding raw as well as kibble, I have had negative side affects with one of my dogs eating raw too soon after eating kibble (it was an accident) it caused nothing more than a day of diarrhea, but I wouldn't say that it would kill any dog to mix raw/kibble. At one point I could see that feeding one right after another, like the experience I had, would cause digestive upset, but I hear of alot of people that mix raw/kibble with no issues, but I can't really comment. I'm not completely comfortable with the idea after the reaction I experienced before but then again each dog is very different.
> 
> I have however, fed a mix diet of raw/kibble on and off throughout the years but I space it roughly 10 - 12 hrs at different meals. Its just easier this way and I know my dogs can handle it. Normally through the winters I feed primarily %100 prey model raw with some premade occasionally when in a pinch, and in the summer months I tend to feed some premade raw and kibble/canned food as well a long with the odd prey model meal just for convenience purposes as summers are hectic for us and I have less time to prep meals or pick up PMR deliveries from my source here in AB. My 8 year old Shiba Inu has eaten primarily 50/50 raw and kibble diet most his life since 8 weeks old and he's done absolutely fine with it. However, I will note that his teeth definitely weren't in the greatest of shape until I started introducing prey model into his diet just over a year ago. Even in the summer months when I'm not feeding as much PMR, I still ensure to feed atleast 1 or 2 raw meaty bones a week to keep their teeth in good shape.
> 
> ...


 Thanks so much for all of this info! 
I like pre-made because it is convenient, but I think eventually I WILL get sick of the exorbitant price! I have an awesome source. She has all types of cuts/organs and protein sources, so for the cost, I may just start doing half franken-prey. Who knows? There is bone in the pre-made but once per week I will be giving her bone of some type (mainly turkey necks).


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## Ivyrose (Aug 11, 2013)

I've had zero issues with Ivy while alternating her between kibble, pre-made raw and dehydrated. I don't mix kibble and raw together but that has nothing to do with all of the negativity that surrounds it, I just believe in offering a variety each meal. But as I said, zero issues, firm stool, healthy skin & coat, and overall good health.

I personally think mixing kibble and raw is something that should be decided based on what your dog does well on, sure some dogs wknt do well mixing the two, but some dogs won't do well on plain kibble. I think the taboo of feeding kibble and raw together probably started with someones dog having digestive issues and peoople just ran with it.

I


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

eh, Gem in sensitive and does not do well on all raw, after much experimenting she does her best with orijen 6 fish mixed with raw for each meal, she does NOT do ok if I feed kibble and raw seperate, they HAVE to be mixed. the rest of my dogs eat all raw at home and all kibble for meals at work, aside from slightly bigger poos from kibble meals,I have seen no adverse affects in the last 4 years.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Ivyrose said:


> I've had zero issues with Ivy while alternating her between kibble, pre-made raw and dehydrated. I don't mix kibble and raw together but that has nothing to do with all of the negativity that surrounds it, I just believe in offering a variety each meal. But as I said, zero issues, firm stool, healthy skin & coat, and overall good health.
> 
> I personally think mixing kibble and raw is something that should be decided based on what your dog does well on, sure some dogs wknt do well mixing the two, but some dogs won't do well on plain kibble. I think the taboo of feeding kibble and raw together probably started with someones dog having digestive issues and peoople just ran with it.
> 
> I


 I agree with you. So far Ruby has been doing excellent, she is eating it with zero issues. Firm poops, happy tummy and not too much gas (a little lol).



Miss Bugs said:


> eh, Gem in sensitive and does not do well on all raw, after much experimenting she does her best with orijen 6 fish mixed with raw for each meal, she does NOT do ok if I feed kibble and raw seperate, they HAVE to be mixed. the rest of my dogs eat all raw at home and all kibble for meals at work, aside from slightly bigger poos from kibble meals,I have seen no adverse affects in the last 4 years.


 Glad you found something that works for you!


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> LOL whut?
> 
> I train dogs/am around people training dogs to do various high level things. The overwhelming thought among any sports or working person is to have a variety of rewards and reward values up your sleeve- be that various types of food, different toys, whatever. If you think varying rewards means the dog is 'deciding to obey because of the reward' then you... don't understand dog training at all.


Thanks Laurelin I feel horrible as I somehow thrown this off topic. Dunno why people can't keep it on topic. Who cares how I train my dog. 
*
Bumper1*
1.treats are in my pocket not in plain sight. Sometimes I have them in a fanny pack that is behind me. Sure dogs can smell good and know I got treats, but they are behave enough they don't beg.

2. I'm not bribing to get them to do anything. using treats doesn't mean having to wave kibble or meat in their face to do anything. 

My dogs do tricks and commands without treats just fine you phase treats out. I do like to give treats every so often for responding fast or holding stay really long etc. 




Gally said:


> And when you're training in a distracting environment and your dog decides chasing that squirrel is more rewarding than your kibble treats... well good luck with that.


Gally are you talking to me? 

You don't know how my dogs react under distraction. 

Saya will recall just fine under distraction or leave it too. She has chased squirrel many of times, rabbit, and even Canadian geese and recalled each time. 

I live in country and can practice just fine. 

Can we get back on topic this is a thread asking if feeding raw and kibble at same time OK not if KuroSaya should use low value treats, high, or none at all! thread


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

My comment was directed to Bumper1. I was commenting on the fact that Bumper1 doesn't believe in using higher value treats when training more difficult behaviors or in more distracting environments.


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

Gally said:


> My comment was directed to Bumper1. I was commenting on the fact that Bumper1 doesn't believe in using higher value treats when training more difficult behaviors or in more distracting environments.


Oh OK thanks for clarifying. 

Sorry for acting rude. I just was bit miffed about bumper1 post. 

Lesson learn ask before making assumptions that a post is directed at me.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Gally said:


> And when you're training in a distracting environment and your dog decides chasing that squirrel is more rewarding than your kibble treats... well good luck with that.


Just because some dogs don't like his kibble enough for it to be treats, that doesn't mean all dogs do. I have had no problems training my dog using his kibble (Nature's Domain Salmon & Sweet Potato) in a variety of settings, including off-leash areas with lots of dogs.

We switched Snowball to 100% pre-ground raw with no side effects at all? Not even soft poos. Its a complicated situation, but we've since scaled back to half-raw half-kibble and have still had no issues. I just think it depends on your dog. If you're going to make the argument about things being digested at different rates, kibble has ALL kinds of ingredients (meats, vegetables, fruits, grains or starchy veg) that get digested at different rates... but the argument seems to be "don't fee raw and kibble in the same meal" and so the conclusion of things being digested at different rates should really be "don't feed kibble ever". Just because the food LOOKS all the same doesn't mean it gets digested that way.

ETA: Just to be clear, I am not trying to convince people to never feed kibble. That would make me quite the hypocrite!  I'm just saying the reasoning behind the "feed kibble and raw separate" myth seems to be bogus.


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