# The Fearful Dog Thread



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Would love to hear your prior success stories and current works-in-progress with dogs that have behavior problems which are fear-based. What fears did they have and what did you do/are you doing to get them through it? How long did it take to see drastic improvement?

I'll be back with mine tomorrow...


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

The tough thing with fear is that it's hard to tell how much of it is past circumstances and how much of it is natural personality. 

With my boyfriend's dog, she is a rescue that he's had for 5 years. She was 6 months old when she came to live with him, and she's always been afraid of other dogs, children, and unfamilliar situations. 

Until recently, no attempt was made to socialize this dog. We've been working on her for a year, but progress is very, very slow and there really haven't been any break throughs. 

However, she has gradually become more receptive to other dogs and new places. She has slowly come to enjoy places like PetSmart. 

When she has a semi positive reaction to another dog, she gets a treat. She has learned how to remove herself from a situation that she is uncomfortable with. She did that on her own. We didn't teach her that. 

I do not think that this dog will ever be comfortable with children. There is too much grabbing and petting and movement.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

A few months ago I was turning into my driveway to see a dog bolt out of the neighbors culvert, get hit by an oncoming car, get up and scurry into my fenced yard. I stopped the truck and went to try to see if he was ok and he ran away from me to another part of my yard. Hiding under a trailer I have parked out there. Wouldnt come to me..wouldnt even look at me. When i would try to approach him..he would bolt off again. Finding somewhere else to hide. I was very worried about what kind of injuries he could have and didnt know if any internal injuries will be present. I ran to find hotdogs. He was starving..And after a few minutes of coaxing.. He wobbled to me for a bite to eat. Jumping back and running every time he snatch a peice out of my hand. I did finally get him on a leash and coax him to the house for some food.

Cheyenne as I call him, If very fearful of people. I am not sure what the poor guy has been through but obviously his prior owners did some work with him. after a few days of hand feeding, I managed to see that this guy has some great obedience training, and has been neutered prior. But no microchip.

I tried to find his owners with no avail. Had him vetted to show he has some proir leg fractures that have healed up on his left leg that were never correctly fixed.

He still has issues with everyone including myself that we are working on. I have never myself owned a fearful dog and decided the best way to help him become easy in his own skin is to let him decide when the appropirate time is to approach me. Food helps but sometimes I notice he is not interested in eating just so he can stay away from everyone. He LOVES the other dogs here and the cat.. Has no issues at all with them..Just us humans.

Right now I have him to where he will stay on my enclosed front porch at night. He does not like being inside the house and will frantcally try to go through the windows to get out. It puts so much stress on the boy that he regresses each time i try for a few days. 

He follows Dozer everywhere. Except inside the house. I can let all the dogs in and leave the front door open for him to peek in with us and he stops at the threshold.In the morning.. He follows Dozer to the outdoor kennel and jumps right in with him.










I imagine all fearful dog situations are different. But I am finding that patience is working here. I want this guy to feel comfy in his skin, But if I push too much it backfires

Next weekend will be his first trip to training with me.He will not be included in the training but I think it is a great oppurtunity to get him some human and doggy socialization. I think he is ready for it.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

I have used both Constructional Aggression Treatment and Natural Dog Training: Pushing to help our B'asia overcome leash reactive behavior. Both methods helped considerably in getting her to gain confidence and realize how to better control herself in the presence of other dogs.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

Cupid and I are still working on it. I'm not sure about his history. I wonder if he was a stray at some time because he is such a scavenger. Yes, dogs are scavengers, but Cupid overdoes it. 

He does not like people to reach out to him. He doesn't growl or bite; he just moves back and withdraws. I am pretty pleased with the progress he's made going to my parents' house. He _did_ growl the first time he went there. We were outside and they startled him, and he growled most of the hour or so we were there. It made me so sad, because I wanted them to see him for the sweet dog he is.

What helped was going there repeatedly and having him see that good things happen there. I gave my parents treats to drop at first. Now he will take them out of their hands. And he is always happy to go there. When we pull up to the house and he realizes where we are, he goes straight to the door with his tail wagging.

So that's one success for me, and it took time. I'm still working on his reactions in many other scenarios. With people he knows, he's wonderful.


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## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

My little female GSD, Artemis, was added to our family on Feb.1st. She was a stray that was seen running around a Winter Texan RV park for a few weeks. The poor thing was too terrified of everyone to let anyone help her. She was finally caught and I got a call to see if I would take her. Of course, being the GSD sucker that I am, I brought her home.  This poor girl was afraid of even a leaf falling from a tree. Any sound or movement would cause her to urinate and run. She never stood up straight, was always crouched down low to the ground ready to flee. When I put her in the car she immediately began vomiting, not from car sickness but, from absolute fear. For a few weeks there I wondered if I had taken on more than I could handle with her. Now though, I am so amazed with her progress. What did I do with her? Well, first of all having the rest of the pack that are all confident dogs was a tremendous help. It took nearly a week for her to stop urinating on herself every time she saw my husband walk towards her. I would watch her watch him play with the others and being the young girl she is she really wanted to play too. Eventually her desire to play overrode her fear of men. She was initially terrified of the leash as well. When ever I tried to put her on a leash she would fall to the ground belly-up. I used a coupler to hook her up between 2 others and would take the 3 (being hooked between 2 others kept her on her feet). She was able to observe how excited they were to go and she soon realized the leash was a good thing. It meant she got to go explore new places. Same with the car. OMG, she was soooo terrified of the car I didn't think she would ever get over that. After only 2 trips though she now runs and jumps in if the door is opened.  There again, she was able to watch the other dogs and how excited they got when they knew we were going for a ride. Ditto with any grooming tools. She would drop and go belly-up when ever I walked towards her with anything in my hand. Now I can tell her to "stand" and she does just that and lets me brush her down. 
It just took a little time, patience, exposure to different things, and the companionship of other already confident dogs to help Artie. She still has a little ways to go. She will still run and hide if I raise my voice around her but at least now she'll come back right away if I call her name. Before I would have to go find her and coax her out of whatever dark corner she hid in. I have no doubt that eventually with more experiences and socialization Artie will be a very happy and confident GSD.
Bottome line; The key is socialization, socialization, socialization! Dogs need to get out and experience different places, people and things to become familiar with, and relaxed around, them. The more a dog is exposed to the fewer fears (s)he will have. Hopefully. 

Jihad
and the pound puppy crew.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

As several people have already read Donatello's emotional restraints, I'll just get to the good news!

Two days ago, we went to the dog park and met a woman with her beautiful dog, whom we haven't seen in months! Nervous and wondering if Donatello would behave himself like he did before, I let him off the leash and said, _"Run, Donatello_!" (Gracie was barreling down on him and I feared a crash would ensue!) lol! So he did, he was nervous at first, snapped a little bit, but I stopped them both, and cuddled with Gracie, and showed Donatello that I approved. 

Well today, we met two new dogs and their owner! They were completely new, and Donatello had somewhat of a blast! They were bigger and not near as active, but he romped with them as well! I let Donatello touch noses with them through the fence first, and luckily his hackles didn't raise and he started whining and wagging his tail as if he wanted to go play _so bad_! lol! It was adorable, so I said, _"Lets give it a go._" So I let him into the pen and Donatello wanted to touch noses first, but the other two wouldn't have none of that- They wanted to run and romp! 

I'm so proud of Donatello! He's still scared of people, _all_ people, but he's not DA like I was formerly beginning to believe... So all my tedious and slow-going work has paid off! : D I'm not nearly as nervous letting Donnie meet new pals now... : ) Every time someone tries to pet him, he doesn't growl like he once did, but he shies away next to my side as if to say, _"Save me_!" 

He's still skittish with me at times, but he's a quick learner, which helps him _so_ much. It doesn't take him long to realize that what I want him to do isn't going to hurt him, and he then learns that it's even pleasing to both him and myself! 

Way to go Donnie! : D


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

My Max was rescued from an abusive outdoor only home.  He was scared of ppl, particularly men, and would urinate in fear at least 5-6 times every day the first few months. I think having other dogs has helped more than anything I have done. He just follows their lead, and he's learned that he doesn't have to be scared. Hand feeding him didn't hurt, either. Now, he's a changed dog. He's so happy to see us and some friends and family members. He wags his tail constantly, and he loves his dog beds. Teaching him to sit, down, speak, etc. have really boosted his confidence. He's such a sweetie. Patience is definitely the key with him. I wanted to bad just to hug him when we first got him, but that would've gotten me peed on. Now, he'll come ask to be picked up when I'm watching tv.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Great stories everyone  You are all really special people for sticking by your fearful dogs. Fear issues are some of the hardest to overcome, so any progress really is a great thing.

My Marge was afraid of everyone and everything when I got her. Noises outside, strangers, even some other dogs. She had been in rescues her whole first year of life, so I know that definitely contributed to her fears. I don't believe she was ever really exposed to men. Out of the four siblings, she was one of the worst in terms of fear (another one was a bit more fearful but was the kind of dog who "shut down" rather than back away, growl etc like Marge does). 

It took a lot of hard work to get her to where she is today. We have had lots of rough spots, and still do from time to time. We went to the boardwalk almost every day during the first summer we had her and that definitely helped. Training classes were absolutely positively the thing that got her better with people. 

Now, 10 months later, she has finally passed her Canine Good Citizen, being friendly and brave enough to stand and allow petting from a total stranger. Out of all of the things we have accomplished, that was definitely the sweetest.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Great thread idea! It's encouraging for those of us just starting out on the journey...

We've had Brenna for just under 2 months now, and she is already making some good progress. She was owned by a BYB for the first 5 years of her life, and she obviously had many litters there. She was kept outdoors in a kennel except when whelping, so she was probably undersocialized. After the BYB retired her, they sold Brenna to a couple who apparently expected her to majically turn into the perfect house pet overnight. They left her in her crate for up to 12 hours, then wondered why she'd have accidents in the house. It is apparent that they were at least verbally abusive with her as loud voices really startle her. She also exhibits some fear of men, so every time my husband comes home from work, it is like starting all over for her.

When we first brought Brenna home, she walked around with her tail tucked all the time and looked like she was ready to bolt at a moment's notice. She preferred to stay in her crate all the time, so we would close the door on it so that she would have to get used to other spaces in the house, one room at a time. Now she has her favorite spots to lay in each room, and she is comfortable anywhere in the house as long as we are there with her. She has not yet held her tail high and wagged it...but it is relaxed and hanging straight down unless she is suddenly frightened. She even lets it sway back and forth when we are on our daily walks! 

Brenna is particularly shy with strangers...she seems to just shrivel up when new people approach her, even though she will submit to being petted. Last week I had a friend over for a few hours, and by the end of the visit, Brenna was finally starting relax and lie down rather than pace. She would even come over to be petted every now and then. The same friend returned yesterday, and I could tell that even though she was nervous at first, Brenna did remember my friend and was willing to enjoy even more petting.

Today I was especially proud of Brenna's progress as I took her to the vet for her heartworm test. She went around to the three other dogs in the waiting room and greeted them very calmly (thankfully, they were all friendly and calm, too!). She even willingly went with the vet tech to have her blood taken! She was very calm and didn't hide behind me at all, which is what she normally does when strangers approach. I think that pretty soon I will be able to start taking her out to PetSmart and other places around town, letting her have some more interaction with new people, places and dogs. 

The hardest part is watching my husband struggle to gain Brenna's love and trust. It breaks his heart when she acts afraid of him. She does alot better with him when he is home all day...when he is gone to work it is almost like she forgets all the good things about him, so it is going to be a longer journey for her to bond with him, I think.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally was basically scared of everything.

Didn't like cable boxes. Didn't like "unnatural" terrain (blacktops or panels on the ground), didn't like new objects, didn't like "old" objects in new places. Kids. Dogs. Sounds. Me. Things in my hand. Cords. 90% of this made no sense to me. Why a dog is scared of a book is beyond me. This dog was even scared of trees - I was like what the ****? Dogs and trees = natural message boards for pee mail.

He's much better now. People would probably said I did it the "wrong" ways. I wanted to "ease" into it - but he learned that he could just stay away and never interact - which was going nowhere.

So I taught him targeting, then made him target what he doesn't like. He gets praised for doing it, and he had to a REAL touch - not just a "phantom" touch. (Freaking smart dog for even thinking of trying that). I want nose snot on object.

This turned him around. It gave him a way to interact with something he didn't like and still earn my praise for it. He could stretch out his neck and nose touch something, and get a treat and praise. He started doing this on his own over time, reaching out to touch things he was uncertain of. If they rustled or moved when he touched - he didn't run away and not want to touch them. He still startles when that happens (I guess that's just natural?) but he'll keep investigating. 

So basically I "forced" him to do it even though I did so via a cue that required interaction (instead of just making him unable to run away). Some might call that "flooding". So be it - I call it what worked.

I also did this training off leash. Again, I wanted him to a) not think that leashed is the only time he has to do this - he won't be leashed all his life, and b) do it on his own power - instead of being dragged/pulled/forced to do so with me pulling on a leash or him feeling that he has to because he's "trapped"

He'll try to "back up" a little if I ask him to sit near an object he doesn't like, but I don't even let that subtle little fearfulness work. Once I know he can do something, I require it always - he learned that as well, so now he'll just come where I target and do as asked. He won't be nervous as he's focused on me for his reward.

With dogs, it's harder because we don't encounter them very often. Usually, they are being walked or worked with by their handlers and I don't believe in disturbing a handler/dog team unless we just happen to meet or are invited/talked to by the other handler (or their dog in a few cases). Usually the work comes in for him looking alert-yet-confident at another dog and getting c/t for it. Any awareness that's "brave" or "non-fearful" gets rewarded. He did give a little puppy the time of day once and that was encouraging. Still, a LOT of work to go on this front.

With adults - he's FAR better. Often he'll turn around and follow them for a little while sniffing the air they just walked past (why?!) and is usually indifferent if we pass by another adult. About the only oddity that gets him a little uneasy is canes/walking sticks. 

With kids - had a setback just today. He was fine to start with but some young girls came running up from behind with their shrill voices and waving arms. Forget it. He ran off then (again off leash but in a very safe place - no streets, etc). Called him back, settled him down. But then it still stuck with him. 

Another girl, this time younger but actually WAY calmer - but Wally still was on "oh crap" mode. He ran off again. This time I stopped him, picked him up, and took him back to the girl. Flopped him on the ground, told him to lie down and stay. Again, people probably would say "Don't do that!" but if it has to be that he needs to learn that running won't do him any good - so be it. He laid down and was actually super calm. He sniffed the girl while she pet him softly and we had a little conversation. He wasn't so-called "shut down" he was sniffing her hand, her shoes, sniffing her breath as she talked. I was thinking, "So why was he scared of her in the first place?" If he is calm and curious about the little girl - why did he RUN? Again, makes no sense to me.

As luck would have it - kids were all over the place. So I used this as a chance to try to calm him down around them and make their appearance less negative. If he looked in the direction of a kid - c/t. I was surprised he actually took the treats. Sometimes he got a little too worried to take one, but then a few seconds later did. Lines for the ice cream truck, a kid running over to us for a quick pet before getting ice cream prompted his default behavior (YES) so click and a jackpot. About 20 feet from some families having fun in the field, click and treats for looking at the movement/people. A girl came over to play on the equipment. C/T since he looked but wasn't afraid. C/T for looking at her. She started yelling (kids!) for some odd reason, he looked. C/T since he was still not afraid. I stood up he looked at her and then me - still sitting. C/T. I ran out of treats so we went home - he had earned them all - about 20 pieces.

It's always a struggle, but he's getting more confident. I can see it. Tail doesn't disappear like someone cut it off anymore when just walking past active kids. It might drop to a little lower than halfway - better than tucked. He can work around their distraction, only looking over once in a while. 

Maybe one day, he'll be more socialized - I try not to think about how under socialized he was by his previous owner/his breeder.

Then it was his fear of doing the "wrong" thing I had to overcome. Getting him to actually try different things. Getting him to communicate with me. It's almost like he was scared to make a sound or touch me or try to do something. There were times he would physically shaking and panic because I wanted him to figure something out on his own. Shaping eventually worked for this but for weeks I was thinking of giving up on it because he just refused to do anything - and then became scared.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

CocoaCream said:


> The hardest part is watching my husband struggle to gain Brenna's love and trust. It breaks his heart when she acts afraid of him. She does alot better with him when he is home all day...when he is gone to work it is almost like she forgets all the good things about him, so it is going to be a longer journey for her to bond with him, I think.


I just want to let you know.. you're not alone. My father and Marge still aren't 100% with each other, even after all of this time. She enjoys his company as long as he's sitting or laying somewhere, and is significantly more afraid of him if he's standing up. She also will growl on occasion when he comes through the front door. They may NEVER be perfect with each other, but I'm trying. He knows how much Marge means to my sister and I so that's why we've still got her. He likes her too.. but after a stressful day at work or something, he isn't always looking to help desensitize her or whatever. It also helps that Marge is a rather busy dog and often accompanies me to places, getting her out of the house a lot of time and minimizing the amount of times that there will be some sort of fearful response towards him (not that I advocate masking the issue). 

It will get better, as long as your husband doesn't overwhelm her, which he sounds like he's very understanding to her needs.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks for posting this thread, MM - I'm always interested in reading about the practical things others are doing to help their fearful dogs.

I don't have any amazing "ah-ha!" story to post. Just one of slow persistence. My current goal is to get Poca comfortable around my very loud, very dog-dumb (I mean that in the most loving way!) family. She's learned to love my mom & mother-in-law. She even jumped up on a chair and licked the back of my dad's neck last week! She's still leery of him when he gets up and moves around, though. He's 6'3" and has a pretty strong personality. I know humans who are intimidated by him, so I can't blame Poca for it - lol! She's beginning to not react around the other females in the family. Hasn't made much progress around the older males, though. 

We had friends over a couple of weeks ago who brought their own fearful dog to visit. We met in the driveway and chatted and tossed hot dogs for 20 minutes - the dogs were scooping them up and pretty much ignoring the people. Wahoo! By the end of the evening my dog almost got their dog to play a little. I know these two will be best buds eventually since we're all committed to it.

And that's the moral of the story. Bless you all for your commitment to these wonderful, vulnerable creatures we have in our lives. Your stories are inspiring.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jonas is afraid of every one. Particularly men. He doesn't show signs of fear in public, and loves being out and about, but no one can touch him except my boyfriend and I. If someone reaches for him, he will either respond by rolling onto his back and peeing, or going ballistic. 

We're seeing a behaviorist now, because we just can't break it. He has an extremely low threshold, and has been peeing primarily when I approach him, and in the past bit me in the face (my fault) and bit my boyfriend a few nights ago when he surprised him. His possessiveness and preference of me certainly is not a helping factor.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius is a 3 year old husky who was born and raised to be a sled dog. His two brother and him went to live with a family in Caribou, ME where they started training the dogs to pull. Tiberius was terrified of the sled so his family decided to get rid of him. He was rehomed but returned once before I got him and he is afraid of everything. Sudden movements, loud noises, new people, new objects in the house, other dogs, leaves, everything.

Recently I took him out on our usual mile or so walk. We met with my neighbor, Sonny, an elderly war vet. Sonny and I were standing in the driveway talking and Tiberius, who normally would be trying to run, actually went up and sniffed Sonny. He even let Sonny scratch behind his ears. Tiberius has met Sonny several times before, but this was a first for my dog.  That is how he has been with every person in my neighborhood recently (with one exception). After a few moments of hiding behind me he will very hesitantly go up and say hi. 
He is also getting much better about meeting new dogs. He used to cower and hide behind me whenever we met a new dog on the street, ut now, as my neighbors realize he is a sweet boy, Tiberius will, hesitantly, go up and say hi and sniff the other dog. There is a little dachsund on our street who thinks she is the size of Tiberius, and loves to try to play with him and her owner was so suprised at how gentle he was with her. 
He was also terrified of his metal food and water dishes. I decided to get him a bit larger food and water dish, and bought plastic ones. He never runs when I put down his food or refill his water now.
He is still terrified of going through doors, but we are working on that. He is also terrified of my father in law but my father in law is 6 foot 4 and very loud. We're also still working, slowly, on his fear of parked cars. Lately when he gets scared, instead of running, he will walk up to me, sit then lean his head on my leg. I just stand there and rub the top of his head until he is comfortable with the situation.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Bumping this back up


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

It is becoming more obvious to me that as the years keep going by I am becoming more and more of a wimp. I allow things that I didn't in the past when it comes to training and or rehab. My current dog Oliver was a very badly abused little boy before I got him. He came with a broken jaw and fractured rear leg. It had been allowed to partially heal without treatment making it worse. He still has issues with his leg and has to be babied a little because of it. Usually it is best to not really dwell on the past with a dog. Oliver was so afraid of dog dishes when I first got him. He would NOT eat out of them and went days without food rather then get near a dog dish. My guess is the past owner kicked him when he went for the dog dish, breaking his jaw and leg then. I have sort of babied him through his rehab with dog dishes. He will now eat out of his dish but he still requires a few kisses on his ears while he eats. He will start eating by himself now but will walk away and come by me for attentions and praise if left alone for too long. Sometimes when he is really hungry he can now eat a whole meal without issue. It took a long time to encourage him and get him to be brave enough to face a dog dish for food or water. Stainless steel on the floor still freaks him out, but he eats great out of his raised feeder with ceramic bowls.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Inga, I read stories like Olivers and I just want to go postal on some people. I'm glad he's gotten past the eating thing. I can't imagine how desperate he must have felt being so hungry yet afraid to eat out of a bowl. It breaks my heart.

Moving on to a happier note....It stormed much of the day today, with thunder, high winds and lightning and Poca.....had virtually no reaction!! Whew. She was a little interested in what was happening -- she used to want to sit outside and sniff the Santa Ana winds when they would blow through in CA. But that mild interest was pretty much it. Let's hope she continues to be unfazed when we get a real boomer.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Yay for Oliver and Poca!! 

This is a repost..I couldn't find this thread and in my excitement for my dog started a new one..so I'll just repost his good day here..

Its a warm day here in Maine, almost 80 degrees. I took Tiberius for his afternoon walk and of course all the kids are out to play. We went down to our neighbor's house because they all love Tiberius. He actually sat calmly and let all four kids pet him! He didn't run! He let both parents come up and pet him! He did so well!! They brought him out some ham, and broke it into pieces. Each child got a piece and he took the treats gently and slowly from each kid!! I am so impressed!! Yay for my shy boy!


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

That's terrific - yay Tiberius! 4 kids at once + adults is a pretty good test. It's amazing how something that many people would take for granted is such a huge win for shy dog owners.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

It was a very good day. He didn't run from my car in the driveway either. Winniec, How are you working with Poca on the thunderstorms? My future in-laws have a lab mix who has to be drugged for most storms. I'm looking for ways to help the poor girl.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

Ilya and Lola both hate storms. They crowd under the bathroom vanity way before he hear the thunder. Lola is much braver than Ilya and quite friendly. Ilya likes his personal space he seems to get nervous depending on the emotional energy at the house. With teenagers, it seems to have drama at times. 

What works the best for Ilya is being calm and confident. Whenever he is nervous, I give him a nice relaxing massage behind his ears and tell him it's okay.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

The power keeps going out today and it's not freaking Wally out. 

He looks at me (for my reaction I'm guessing?) and when I just act like nothing happened - he goes back to doing whatever it was. No shaking or panting - it's so wonderful.

Some loud BOOM happened while we were walking this evening. He looked around trying to figure out where it came from, but he wasn't scared.

Maybe he's growing up!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Yay Wally!! 

JustTess, I know they try the massage thing with their dog, but she is hard to get ahold of. She runs around yelping and crying like someone is hurting her.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

JustTess said:


> What works the best for Ilya is being calm and confident. Whenever he is nervous, I give him a nice relaxing massage behind his ears and tell him it's okay.


It's true. The sentiment among dog-people used to be that comforting the dog would reinforce the fear, but after reading the accounts of several fearful dog owners I've learned that simple classical conditioning is making somewhat of a comeback. I honestly still have trouble with the concept of giving my dog treats/affection when she's scared in order to change the association, but I do know that other people have had success with it. All depends on who you ask and I've tried it to some degree during thunderstorms.


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## Kristina97 (Apr 26, 2009)

You and your dogs speak different languages. Humane, interactive training gives dogs greater freedom and a better understanding of our world. Untrained dogs are often punished for their “improper” behavior. Be the one to train your dog—you are the one who will need to know how to communicate with him or her—but get help from a humane dog trainer if you run into problems. Compassion, clarity, and consistency are the most important elements of dog training. Training should not include any activity or device that endangers animals (e.g., electric shock collars) or puts undue stress on them. Good books on the subject include Click Here for a Well-Trained Dog by Deborah A. Jones, Ph.D.; The Power of Positive Dog Training by Pat Miller; and, for solving dog behavioral problems, If Only They Could Speak, Dogs Behaving Badly, and The Dog Who Loved Too Much, all by Nicholas Dodman. Animals get depressed if deprived of adequate social interaction, so let them “chat” and play with other dogs on walks and at parks. A happy dog’s life is not one long series of commands: Let them live a little, make choices, and take their time. Animals are very sensitive and can become easily frightened, so speak softly to dogs. Don’t fight or shout in their presence, and give them their own hiding places to dash into when they want to be alone.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Dunixi said:


> It was a very good day. He didn't run from my car in the driveway either. Winniec, How are you working with Poca on the thunderstorms? My future in-laws have a lab mix who has to be drugged for most storms. I'm looking for ways to help the poor girl.


Actually we haven't been doing anything about storms because yesterday was the first one Poca has experienced. So I'm not sure what would work. We just acted like nothing was going on yesterday and it seemed to work for the mild storm we had.

I have a book by Nicole Wilde ("Help for Your Fearful Dog") that has a chapter on thunderstorms. I think if Poca does develop a fear of storms when the bigger ones start hitting, I may try some of the suggestions there, including talking to my vet about giving her melatonin and using sound desensitization.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Kristina97 said:


> You and your dogs speak different languages. Humane, interactive training gives dogs greater freedom and a better understanding of our world. Untrained dogs are often punished for their “improper” behavior. Be the one to train your dog.......... Don’t fight or shout in their presence, and give them their own hiding places to dash into when they want to be alone.


Why thank you for your copied-and pasted advice that has nothing to do with the thread, which is to share stories about fearful dogs. 

Anyway.. Gosh, what a difference from last year. We went to the beach yesterday, and the boardwalk was packed. Marge would have probably freaked out last year, with all of the bikes, people, etc. Or at least would have been totally on-guard watching everyone. Cool as a cucumber this time.. temperament-wise, anyway. She would have enjoyed it more if she wasn't so hot (and would actually go in the water) but at least I was able to see how much progress she's made.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm so encouraged by Marge's progress. I've been reading about the CGC and think I might try training Poca to take the test if I can figure out how to get her enough interaction with strangers to get her over this last hurdle she has.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

winniec777 said:


> I'm so encouraged by Marge's progress. I've been reading about the CGC and think I might try training Poca to take the test if I can figure out how to get her enough interaction with strangers to get her over this last hurdle she has.


Winnie - operant conditioning really worked for me. Teaching her to stand in place despite having someone come over meant a treat - or a jackpot of treats. You do it slowly - first the person only walks 5 ft from the dog, then 3 ft, then right next to, then a hand on the head. Having people dole out treats to her for no reason at all worked well too. 

Your hurdle was ours (and still is ours) - and finding people to help out with it was really the worst part. Most people don't want to be bothered, and approaching a stranger and saying "can you pet my dog?" is just kind of weird. Depending on how fearful she is, if you have a PetSmart or something like that nearby, you might want to try going at one of the really quiet times, like when the store first opens on a Monday or something like that. My dog is usually too engrossed in all the sights and smells of yummy things to be too worried. 

If it was a different evaluator, Marge might not have passed. Mine wasn't terribly lenient, but gave Marge plenty of wiggle room for the examine paws part. The way I saw it was that some dogs had some of that "happy" forward movement when the evaluator came over and got dangerously close to jumping on her, while Marge had just a touch of that apprehensive feeling that really paled in comparison to some of the other dogs who passed. I think Marge deserved the CGC she got, but I could see a terribly strict evaluator failing her for shyness.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Sadie was terrified of kids, my fault. There are very few in our neighborhood, and I avoid them. Until she was about 9 months, she had no exposure to them. So when I started taking her to my store every day, she would often bark and run away when kids approached her - due to their erratic movements and noises she was unable to get near them because of the fear. The big problem here is that kids don't ask if they can pet, and they rush up screaming, or they wave their hands and then run away yelling. Kids are weird.

So I started taking her in and letting her sit in the corner and watch them. If she looked at a kid, I'd c&t. She would then start staring at them then back at me, waiting to see if she was doing it right. So we'd move closer, and c&t over and over. After a few weeks, we were able to find several calm kids who'd let her walk up to them and sniff them, me c&t the whole time.

Over the past months I've continued this, if there is an extremely erratic kid and she is calm, I reward like crazy. I randomly reward calmness around all kids, and also men or just weird acting people.  Now, most of the time when she sees a kid, she calmly walks to them, sniffs, rubs her head against them and then stares at me as they pet her. She may not actually enjoy it like some dogs might, but she tolerates it and she is able to work with me at my job.

When she would bark and run away, I would ask the kid to stop trying to pet her, and I'd remove her. Then we'd slowly walk back close as long as she was calm. I only ever c&t for good behavior. If the ears are back or she's panting, etc, I just watch her until she shows calm interest. 

We're doing the same thing with big dogs, but it's a bit harder.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MM -- we've had strangers doling out treats to her and that has been helping. I'm also training her to accept a hand reaching towards her head. I can see I need to get more systematic about it as you've described, though. 

It is strange asking people to pet your dog, I agree, esp. since I feel I need to tell them that she's not crazy about strangers. Frankly, I would hesitate to pet a dog I didn't know and hadn't had the chance to observe before approaching. Plus there's the worry that the person will just barge in with a full frontal approach, arms flapping, loud voice exclaiming "Ooooohhhh! WHAT A PRETTY DOGGIE!!!!!" Poca would recoil for sure. So I have to find the right people who know how to approach a dog and don't ignore or aren't offended or scared off by my coaching. Once she's ok with them, she'll be ready for the more unpredictable types. Baby steps .

Unfortunately, Poca had a few bad experiences in Pet Smart when she was young and I couldn't even get her in the door without forcing her. So we're avoiding it for now. Once she's better with people, I'll go back and work with her on that.

Jesirose - that sounds like a great plan for Sadie. I wish we had kids around I could work with but all the "kids" I know are in high school and college now! Poca doesn't mind kids as long as they don't run up to her. She doesn't love them, but she's not real afraid of them.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Go to a pet store, during the day. Moms bring their kids in all the time, and it's fairly quiet. More kids, less dogs. If you stand by the front, people will ask. And you can practice around running kids.

Also, instead of me asking them to pet her, I would watch for people who were watching her, and say "You can pet her if you want". Usually they want to and just don't want to ask. If they don't want to, they won't.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Also, instead of me asking them to pet her, I would watch for people who were watching her, and say "You can pet her if you want". Usually they want to and just don't want to ask. If they don't want to, they won't.


Definitely. And if you don't think she'll take kindly to petting at this point, something else I've done is ask the child if they want to give her a treat, as long as a parent is present. So far, kids haven't turned that opportunity down. Most times they just stare and smile and are too shy to ask, so I do the asking for them.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

MM, I'm glad to hear Marge did good on the board walk.  I'm finding getting Tiberius used to other people is the hardest for him. 

Winniec, hopefully she doesn't get too bad with the storms. I know with Sadie Mae, the in laws dog, it horrible to be there when there is a storm.

Jesirose, I'm gonna try some of what you suggested with Tiberius. See if maybe I can get him over his people shyness. Although he is doing much better.


I took Tiberius out for his walk this afternoon, and he walked calmly though the front door and screen door instead of panicing and bolting through the door.  He also didn't run from the one neighbor guy he is afriad of. He let the gentleman scratch behind his ears then sat calmly next to me.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

So, question for those of you who have alot more experience with fearful dogs than I do...

Now that Brenna is to the point of being totally comfortable around me, follows me around the house and such, should I start taking her to places with people more often? In the two months we've had her she's been to the vet's office twice, a hiking trail with a fair amount of people walking past twice, and met a couple other people outside our church once. We've also had a couple people over for dinner 3 times. I've really been hesitant about taking her to PetSmart or the local feed store that allows pets inside because of the higher volume of people present. But I don't want to hinder her progress, either.

BTW, Brenna is not the aggressive sort of fearful dog, rather the type that shuts down or tries to hide when she is afraid. And she has never yet taken treats from me when we are in new places, so that doesn't seem to be a good source of positive reinforcement for her.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

If Brenna will follow you around, I would start taking her out and letting her explore the world with you. She may not take the treats, probably because she's checking out the new place, trying to learn it, get the smells, check for trouble, etc.

Over time she'll probably get more comfortable and then you'll be able to treat her. Otherwise, a nice "good girl" can be just as comforting. I know if I say "good boy" to Wally while he's checking something out, even if apprehensive about it, he'll keep sniffing it, or he'll back away and then sniff again.

Also, try introducing her to people, but if she's a hider, you might want to take her somewhere she's comfortable, but can watch people go by. Praise/treat her as long as she's interested, but not in a fearful state (alert is fine). If she's fearful, increase the distance until she's calmer again, then start again. If she can't hold it together, go ahead and stop and let her do something she finds comfortable - it was just too much at the moment.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

CocoaCream said:


> So, question for those of you who have alot more experience with fearful dogs than I do...
> 
> Now that Brenna is to the point of being totally comfortable around me, follows me around the house and such, should I start taking her to places with people more often? In the two months we've had her she's been to the vet's office twice, a hiking trail with a fair amount of people walking past twice, and met a couple other people outside our church once. We've also had a couple people over for dinner 3 times. I've really been hesitant about taking her to PetSmart or the local feed store that allows pets inside because of the higher volume of people present. But I don't want to hinder her progress, either.
> 
> BTW, Brenna is not the aggressive sort of fearful dog, rather the type that shuts down or tries to hide when she is afraid. And she has never yet taken treats from me when we are in new places, so that doesn't seem to be a good source of positive reinforcement for her.



I guess if it were me, I would be working obedience with Brenna at home to help that bond even more and allow her to understand what I expect of her. 2 months is a very short time to have had a dog to know with any certainty how she will react around others. Once she is preforming obedience exercises proficiently at home, I might take her to a less crowded area to do the same. Once she is doing the exercises there, then it is time to move to a more crowded area. Remember to keep a close eye on her body language and if she starts to shut down again, back off and continue to work those exercises. Simple ones like "sit" If she is truly frightened I wouldn't ask for a "down" in public. 
I prefer to take a slow approach to rehab, rather then taking steps backward when I don't have to. Just a thought.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It depends on how fearful Brenna is right now and exactly what she is afraid of.

If she's normally food motivated, not taking treats is an excellent way to gage your dogs' level of discomfort. At this point, I'd say Petsmart is probably a no-go - even on a quiet day, there are still sliding doors, high shelves of items, scary checkout counters, etc. Since you haven't had her long, you're right, I wouldn't risk the relationship that you've worked this long to build.

I agree with everything Inga said but in a new environment I might not ask for obedience commands at all. I used to do that with Marge and it ultimately resulted in a dog that wasn't paying attention to me and instead was looking around her environment, making sure she was safe. Instead, you might want to try doling out treats WITHOUT asking for a command. This is classical conditioning - pairing one thing with another to change or form a feeling about something. I go for a walk on a street where there's lots of people, I get treats. I go stand outside Petsmart, I get a bunch of treats. Stuff like that. That way, if it happens enough, the dog looks forward to it.

Right now, I'd be doing a lot of walking, SLOWLY working your way from quiet walks (say in the early morning, for example) to times and places where it is busier. Even now, if the sidewalk is busy enough, Marge will give me some signs that she is afraid. Parks, however, are not stressful at all, no matter how many people are around. It's all about finding where your dog is most comfortable and building on it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I hope this isn't the start of a set back.

Out walking tonight so he could go potty before bed. 

Someone let's their dog out, probably to do the same. Except his dog couldn't care less what he's saying.

So I start to walk Wally away. But that was probably a bad idea as it gets the other dog even more attracted (chase instinct probably).

So eventually, I have him turn and sit and I sit next to him. We're going to hold a position. This seemed to make Wally less nervous. I have my arm around him and using my eyes to keep the other dog back away from us. He tries to close in I lean forward to occupy the space. Wally also growled a little. I didn't correct him since growling is just communication to "stay back". I'd rather hear the growling than have him think I don't want him to and he just snaps/bites.

I see he (the dog) is using calming signals (sniffing the ground), so I stick my hand out into neutral space. It occupies him, and he sniffs my hand. I was hoping to help the other owner calm him down and get him more subdued. 

Worked - until the owner started chasing the dog. *sigh*. So the dog gets the game on and runs away from him. We take the chance to go home - at least after a poop (the excitement must have made him need to go)


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It's weird, because I felt like we might have had a little bit of a setback tonight too. Not because of any incident in particular, but just because the warm weather means the streets are busier. Marge looked a bit uncomfortable on our walk, so I'm hoping it was just a one time thing. 

Definitely agree with you on the growling - its taking some convincing to make other people believe that growling is a good thing, though. My mom still gets crazy when Marge growls, albeit not as bad as she used to.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> It's weird, because I felt like we might have had a little bit of a setback tonight too. Not because of any incident in particular, but just because the warm weather means the streets are busier. Marge looked a bit uncomfortable on our walk, so I'm hoping it was just a one time thing.


I know that feeling too. More kids out. More dogs out. More people out talking. More activity (yard work, home improvements)

I've been stepping up the look at that games and my own "big deal" demeanor. So far both have been working. He let three young girls stroke him for a good 15 minutes. The oldest one (probably like 9 or 10) even asked me if she could have Wally.  Forward little girl  Kept looking at me too while stroking him - almost a little creepy now that I think about it 

It was funny, though. One of the little ones (probably a 4 year old) picked up something off the ground and Wally almost licked her hair! I mean, I know he'll lick MY hair, but someone elses? What the heck?


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

After a couple rough days with Ti, we had another breakthrough today. We were walking and one of my neighbors was walking on the other side of the road, and she commented on how pretty Tiberius was...so we went over and said hi. He approached her and let her pet him without shying away!! Now we are back to him being afraid of my parked car though...*sigh*


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Thanks for the advice on taking Brenna out more. I know I need to work more on obedience with her at home, so that is a good next step, I guess. When she first came to us, she was too fearful and nervous for me to really work with. She would grudgingly sit for me, but it was more out of submission and fear than anything. We have, however, figured out what makes her "tick"--hot dogs! She LOVES them and will even follow hubby around the house if she thinks he has one in his hand! So, that is great! Yesterday I got her to sit and then lie down, all for one piece of hot dog! I was so happy. 

She is also getting more relaxed during our walks around the neighborhood, which she has always loved, but has had some rotten experiences as well. We live on a country road with no sidewalks, so we just have to scoot off to the edge when a car or truck goes by...Also, one house along our route used to have a couple of nasty dogs that would randomly be outside roaming free without supervision, and one day, one of them threatened us. That really set Brenna back, but I wrote the people a polite, but very serious letter informing them that if this happened again, I was going to call Animal Control. I haven't seen the dogs again!

Anyway, I'm enjoying reading about all your dog's good days and not so good. It's nice to have some people that understand where I'm coming from!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Great work on finding what gets her going. That's really what it's all about with a fearful dog, as it makes things like counterconditioning that much easier. Food in general is Marge's "thing," but I'm also starting to try to revv her up with light tug games, but I know it'll never work as well.

Do you have any parks in your area where you could take Brenna? For Marge, having people be around was fine in the park, because they seldom paid any mind to her. In the beginning, you could just start by sitting at a quiet corner of the park and doling out treats.

Keep this thread going - I too, love all of your stories.

Which reminds me.. BRAGTIME!

MARGE WENT THROUGH THE SHORT AGILITY TUNNEL WITH BARELY ANY HESITATION! And did the dog walk and tire hoop too! I can definitely see how agility is a confidence builder for the shy guys, and I can also tell that she's really loving it.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I brought Cheyenne with me to training with the rest of the dogs Sunday. He just hung out at base camp with the rest of the dogs waiting for their turns tethered to a tree as the others are. As I went for a turn into the swamp I can hear him whine for me. It was the first time since he has been here that he actually seemed dependent on me for my presence. It was a feel good moment. When i got back to camp..I took this picture.









First full body wag. 

He met the other dogs wonderfully. He sat with the rest of the team duing our end of the day pow wow and everyone got to pet and cuddle with him. Some even got on the ground and he allowed them to give him tummy rubs. It was a great day. 

We get back home and he reverted a bit. But I think it will eventually be ok. The biggest task was getting him in the truck for the hour ride. And he did great with that too..


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I love to hear all the good stories of all the braver fraidy dogs.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Digits mama I love Cheyenne. I'm surprised because I've seen lots of pics of Dozer and your Cairns but it appears you hid this beauty from Dog Forum. 

Looking forward to reading more of your progress with him.. I love these stories too!


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Haha.. Yea..I decided to keep him under wraps due to the fact that he was going to be rehomed after making sure he didnt have a family out looking for him..

But now. well.. He is technically still a foster...forever i think.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

This is a bump and a brag.

I took Tiberius out on a two mile walk tonight with one of my neighbors. He did great. He didn't panic when cars went by. He even sat for me when three motorcyles sped by. He approached a man building a fenced area for his wife's dogs (Johnny and June...they are soo cute). Tiberius let a teenage boy approach him and even wagged his tail a bit. Then the little Maltese boy, Johnny, came out to visit. Him and Tiberius pounced around and played on the sidewalk and the front yard.  It was a great walk.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Awesome Dunixi!! Sounds like Tiberius is making progress.

Too bad all of you live so far away.. we could have a fearful dog convention.. LOL

I'm currently debating whether to enroll Marge in Rally class alongside of Agility.. she LOVES agility, but I kind of want to do both..


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

hehe. A Fearful dog convention would be rock, MM! I don't know about anyone else, but for me driving 3 to 6 hours isn't out of the ordinary...we have nothing up here.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Dunixi said:


> hehe. A Fearful dog convention would be rock, MM! I don't know about anyone else, but for me driving 3 to 6 hours isn't out of the ordinary...we have nothing up here.


Count me in! Just drove to FL & back. Road trips are fun!! 

...Ok, the hotel part is not fun for Poca. 
...And the gas station part with the disgusting bathrooms - that's not so much fun. 
...And all the dog poop left in the rest stops -- that's not fun either, at least not for the humans ("leaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveitleaveit...and...oops, another pile...leaveit"). 

But seeing and smelling so many new things and getting to eat McDonalds and meet new dogs? That rocks Poca's world. And by extension, mine!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

The farthest I've traveled with Tiberius is to the next town...its about a 10 minute drive. lol. It would be my first road trip with a dog...but I bet it'd be fun Tiberius loves McNuggets..but they have to be cold...he won't eat them warm..he is odd

Here is a pic of Tiberius and Johnny...they were nose to nose before the camera clicked.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Donatello is slowly continuing to climb out of his shell... (However, he's so smart, and bright, that I know he still clearly remembers everything that was done to him.) Meaning that if I did one thing to scare him he'd be back in his shell.

Every night, he knows when it's bed time... I don't know how, and I don't know _how_. lol! I take him out one last time, put him back on the sofa gather my things for bed then walk over and grab his old leash... He's off the sofa down the hallway and waiting... (I take his old leash to bed with me, because in the mornings he used to make a mad-dash from my room down the hallway and leap onto his spot on the sofa. Well at 7:30 in the morning, and even though he's a tiny dog, that's still a lot of commotion.) So every morning I put the leash on him and _walk_ him next to me... I've been doing that for over a month now... I should start weening him off... 

ANYWAY... He's gotten so smart that now all I have to do is walk in the direction of the bin that I keep his leashes in and he's off the sofa and down the hallway... BUT ONLY when it's bed time. I could go to that bin every hour on the hour all day long and pull out any leash and he's ready to go outside... But by-golly if he doesn't know when it's bedtime! 

Oh, and when I take too long to follow _him_ back, he'll come out of my room and look down the hallway- If he sees me he'll wag his tail and look at me as if to say _"Well c'mon slow poke!"_

It used to be an every night hassle to get him to come to bed with me in my room. He got so used to sleeping out in the living room on the sofa with me, that I would have to fight tooth and nail for him to come with me... I'd have to put his old leash on him to follow me to my room, coaxing him with words would freak him out and he'd pee if I'd reach down to pick him up... 

My family marvels every night when he does this... : ) I love it!


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## Pickleisaminidaschi (Jun 25, 2008)

My dog who I rescued from a shelter Samantha used to live in a rabbit cage with three other dogs and the only human contact she had was when they trew in some food. Now every time you look at her or touch her or even talk to loud she pees. We still are working on it but it's getting better. Just needs lots of love.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Hmm...Wally's still a bit put-off by kids, especially little ones. I'm starting to think it's their voices (high-pitched) that's doing it. Trying to think of ways that I might can help this aside from just happening to be out with kids around.

Thought about making a high pitched sound and then c/t when he looks at it and not being afraid (almost turn the high-pitch voices almost like clicks), but then it will be hard to simulate a high-pitched kid's voice and I know a dog's hearing can't be fooled.

Whenever there's the chance, the "Look at That" game is always in effect - just wish I could get more opportunities. Like the last few days, it's been hard because of the constant rain so the kids aren't out. 

He didn't freak out with all the yard work and such going on. Groundskeepers and their large, loud lawnmowers - other guys with leaf blowers and weed whackers. He even went potty about 10 feet from a worker with his leaf blower nearby. He looked at him (and the tool) but kept peeing and staying under control. 

Now it's thundering - going to be another test for him since he'll be needing to go out soon so no way to "wait it out" unless the storm happens to pass.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Huge test coming for Marge. Today (Sunday) we're having at least 7 or 8 people over for company. Hope it goes well.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Good luck to Marge!! Hopefully all goes well MM.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Huge test coming for Marge. Today (Sunday) we're having at least 7 or 8 people over for company. Hope it goes well.


I hope it went well - post and let us know! We had people over, too, but the ratio of people she loves vs. ones she's not sure of was 2 to 1, so it worked out well. She did bark at my nephews a bit and scattered if they got up to move around. They're near/over 6 ft, late teens with loud voices so she's taking some time to warm up to them.

I made her a little hamburger of her own and cut it up for them to give to her. Within an hour she was licking my one nephew's elbow and ankle, trying to scam some more hamburger from him. And she ate all of her dinner - kibble and canned - with a house full of people here! Normally she won't touch her food when people are here. Yay!

And a new puppy moved in with the family next door. They have five children aged 2 to 11. The puppy is going to be our ace for getting Poca more used to children. I have all summer....


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Winnie, I'm so glad Poca had a good day. And, congrats on the puppy next door - I know what that feels like, knowing that someone else's situation could make yours all the more better. That's how you have to think when you have a fearful dog I guess... LOL

I guess the visit went well today. I had Marge outside when they came, not wanting to chance the growl, especially since like 5 people came in one car. She was fine with them in the house; I gave her a lot of breaks, used up some stuffed treat dispensers (frozen plain yogurt -- mmm) and just watched her like a hawk. A couple of people were afraid of dogs so I had to monitor that a bit since Marge can be pushy around food and such. 

She did growl when one of my aunts came back into the house after leaving briefly, but neither my aunt nor Marge made a big stink. Thank God it was the dog-savvy aunt.

All in all, I guess it was good.. Marge WANTED to be with the people rather than in the backyard alone, but I gave her periodic time outs because they could get kinda loud, one aunt is a dog collar-puller  and just a lot of bustling in general.. didn't want there to be a problem. And I guess there wasn't!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Yay!! I'm glad both Poca and Marge had good days. It makes me smile.

Tiberius went to my mom's today. He got into a small scuffle with their dog. But otherwise the visit went well. I have been taking him over there a couple times a week for playdates...and they have been going well.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I clicked Wally for looking at a dog walking by and gave him a tasty treat - he kept following the dog LOL

I had to call him three times to get him to stop walking behind the dog! 

NEVER saw that reaction before. I don't know if it was just a calm dog that put him at ease or if he thought "well if looking got me this...maybe following will get me even more!"


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Yay Marge! I take Poca outside when people are coming over, too. Give them hot dog pieces to throw at her. Helps a lot. Giving breaks is a good idea. I went overboard the first time we had people over to the new house -- I kept Poca separated from them, but it was a mistake. She was more stressed about the noises she heard and not being able to keep an eye on them. The next time I let her mix in with everyone but left her an out. Occasionally she would go lay down on the upstairs landing and play look out. And DH would take her for a short spin up the block if she was looking too worried. Today she had free run and while I was a little nervous of her barking at the boys, she handled it well. Think I'll have them come over separately and just let her hang with them for a couple of hours.

Sounds like Tiberius is hitting his stride as well. It's a good feeling when you see progress, isn't it?


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

It does Winniec. I took him out for his early evening walk, and they are doing all kinds of work on our road. He didn't even look at the equipment he was too busy doing Zoomies on his long leash in the front yard. I posted pics in the pictures forum of Tiberius and his playmate.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

YAY!! Softball and baseball practices have started here. Tonight I decided Tiberius and I would go to the park that is next to the baseball field. We got there and found out there was a practice going. Ti could care less about the ball players or the two screaming kids. He was enamored with investigating all the playground equipment. Then on the walk home he visited all the neighbors and didn't shy away from anyone.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That's great! It's always a relief when the warm weather comes that the dogs are comfortable around all of the people outside. 

Have any of you considered agility for your fearful dogs? I can honestly say Marge loves it. We've started weaving, which she picked up on pretty quicky (can weave 3 or 4 bent poles with me standing in front). We did the A-Frame, which Marge LOVES, some more jumping, the hoop jump, some more tunnel work and the big bad scary chute. But, it's all raising Marge's confidence so much. The instructor even commented on how much she's progressed in just the 3 weeks we've been going.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I'd like to get him into agility, even though he is kinda clutzy.  I think it would help him tremendously..but we have no agility classes up here. We have basic obediance classes, which we are going to be attending after my mom's wedding. Wow..Marge is kicking arse at the agility classes huh? Currently Tiberius is zonked out at the foot of the stairs, snoring. He is a tired pup. Tomorrow is another playdate with Casanova. We'll see how it goes.


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## semper83 (May 6, 2009)

I'm not sure if I should post this in a separate thread but since I'm having a fearful dog problem this seems to be the place to post. My dog is only 5 months but recently showing some fearful signs. I thought my husband and I had been doing a pretty good job socializing him up to this point. We've gone on many doggy play dates (all went great). He's pretty submissive to the adult dogs but will jump on top and kinda dominate the younger puppies. Our problem has been with strangers he's been hesitant to go up to some people. Others he'll jump up on but that's usually only after playing with their dog. Is it possible the other dog gives him more self confidence and he's not as afraid of the stranger? 

My recent situation happend a couple days ago when I had someone come over to look at adopting my foster cat. We rarely have people over at the house and live up a long driveway kinda in the country so he's not used to cars coming to the house. When he heard the car he started to growl and kinda bark under his breath. Not loud at all but you could tell he was nervous with his tail down. I told him "NO" firmly not yelling and then to sit. He was good for a few seconds before the woman and her baby walked up to the house. The baby was very good and not making any loud noises. Once they came in he starting running circles in the house doing the same quiet barking thing. The woman said she was fine and used to dogs, but I was still a bit stressed because I was clearly not in contol. Since she was there to look at the cat I took the cat and woman to a separate room away from Semper. I didn't hear him but once we came back out he started up again. The woman tryed to get down and let him come over to her but he wasn't having it. So she left with the cat and as soon as she was out his tail went back up and acted completely normal. Oh and I found a small puddle he left in the master bedroom (which the woman or baby hadn't gone into), and that surprised me since he hasn't had any accidents in the house in about 2 months. 

Sorry this was so long but I'm feeling a bit like a failure since I thought I'd been doing a pretty good job socializing, but I haven't done much inside the house. My sister will be visiting in Oct so we'll be able to work on getting used to new people but don't want to wait that long. But I don't know how to invite strangers to our house either. He's met my friends and is good with them so it wouldn't be much of a test for him. Any hints you can give me would be wonderful. I'm going to start obedience school with him soon, but the only place here to do that said he has to be 6 months. And I'm continuing to bring him new places with crowds like the adoption events with the rescue group we volunteer with. One woman who also has an Oki-mix said these dogs just tend to be wary of strangers, but I still think I can do more to help my dog. Thanks!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

semper83 said:


> I'm not sure if I should post this in a separate thread but since I'm having a fearful dog problem this seems to be the place to post. My dog is only 5 months but recently showing some fearful signs. I thought my husband and I had been doing a pretty good job socializing him up to this point. We've gone on many doggy play dates (all went great). He's pretty submissive to the adult dogs but will jump on top and kinda dominate the younger puppies. Our problem has been with strangers he's been hesitant to go up to some people. *Others he'll jump up on but that's usually only after playing with their dog. Is it possible the other dog gives him more self confidence and he's not as afraid of the stranger? *


I think so. Many fearful dogs have done well with other dogs around.



> My recent situation happend a couple days ago when I had someone come over to look at adopting my foster cat. We rarely have people over at the house and live up a long driveway kinda in the country so he's not used to cars coming to the house. When he heard the car he started to growl and kinda bark under his breath. Not loud at all but you could tell he was nervous with his tail down. I told him "NO" firmly not yelling and then to sit.


I wouldn't correct him in this situation. It will only heighten his anxiety. Instead, redirect him. Have treats handy and ask for a different behavior and then reward it. Or, simply remove him from the situation (backyard perhaps).



> He was good for a few seconds before the woman and her baby walked up to the house. The baby was very good and not making any loud noises. Once they came in he starting running circles in the house doing the same quiet barking thing. The woman said she was fine and used to dogs, but I was still a bit stressed because I was clearly not in contol. Since she was there to look at the cat I took the cat and woman to a separate room away from Semper. I didn't hear him but once we came back out he started up again. The woman tryed to get down and let him come over to her but he wasn't having it. So she left with the cat and as soon as she was out his tail went back up and acted completely normal. Oh and I found a small puddle he left in the master bedroom (which the woman or baby hadn't gone into), and that surprised me since he hasn't had any accidents in the house in about 2 months.


Not sure about the accident, but if he was that stressed he could have done it out of fear. When a dog is that stressed, tell you guests to completely ignore him. Getting down onto the floor can be threatening for a dog who is very anxious/nervous. Instead, tell your guests to not make eye contact, not extend their hands to him, etc. After he gets comfortable, they may toss him treats onto the floor. 

When you're expecting guests, you may want to try what I've been doing. Wait outside with your dog on a leash, so that he can see the person from outside, acquaint himself, and THEN proceed inside with them. Works wonders for my dog.



> Sorry this was so long but I'm feeling a bit like a failure since I thought I'd been doing a pretty good job socializing, but I haven't done much inside the house. My sister will be visiting in Oct so we'll be able to work on getting used to new people but don't want to wait that long. But I don't know how to invite strangers to our house either. He's met my friends and is good with them so it wouldn't be much of a test for him. Any hints you can give me would be wonderful. I'm going to start obedience school with him soon, but the only place here to do that said he has to be 6 months. And I'm continuing to bring him new places with crowds like the adoption events with the rescue group we volunteer with. One woman who also has an Oki-mix said these dogs just tend to be wary of strangers, but I still think I can do more to help my dog. Thanks!


It could be possible that a breed's temperament may leave a dog more inclined to be weary of people. However, that doesn't excuse the behavior. Definitely do obedience as soon as possible, classes helped my dog tremendously.

Don't feel like a failure. I didn't socialize Marge very well in the house either. Now, she'll growl if someone comes through the front door if she's standing right there, but otherwise can be distracted very easily. We just recently had a crowd of 11 in the house and Marge was almost 100% fine - and this was a dog who used to cower in the corner anytime someone knew came. It just takes diligence and patience.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I have a feeling Wally would be too scared of all the obstacles to be able to learn how to get past them...

He'll run around them most likely. 

I've thought about splurging for a few jumps and maybe some weave poles, but haven't.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

There are some pretty good buys on e-bay, especially for small dog equipment. I thought Marge would be terrified of the obstacles, too, but she's actually doing really well so far. 

Even if you don't have classes in your area, backyard agility is always fun. Marge and I do it often. Doesn't have to be your typical agility stuff, either - we work on things like running up to a plastic lid so that she targets it with her foot (which IS good for agility, but isn't scary), walking across a plank laid out on the ground, and jumping over low bars propped up by flower pots. I haven't thought of a good way to simulate weaves or the tunnel - might have to cave in and buy those eventually.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

For Horses we'd get some metal coffee cans, and quick dry cement with PVC pipes not sure how it would work for dogs but its an idea.  I am going to start doing some stuff with him in the back yard (but my yard is mostly hill) I may have to take him to the park and set him up with some stuff there. He was really good with the playground equipment, so maybe we'll use the balance beam that is there for a jump...


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## semper83 (May 6, 2009)

Thanks MissMutt! I think I'll try to have Semper out on a leash and let him see the person and then walk in together. Because outside the house he's usually great with people (except big crowds, we're still working on that). Just today I was stopping by the vet for frontline and he went up to many people without dogs wagging his tail sitting (what we make him do before petting him to avoid the jumping) in front of people for pets. He just acts like a different dog outside. We'll work on your suggestions


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Had to brag on Wally's EXCELLENT walk he just had.

Started with a dog a couple townhouses down being out - he just stood and looked at her - so he got a c/t. Then had him look at her (pointed to her) and when he turned to her, c/t. He did that a couple times before he stopped looking at her and just sat and looked at me. Then later on, the neighborhood playground was brimming with activity. He didn't care - he was too fixated on me LOL. When he actually noticed other stuff was going on, c/t. 

A little further, a dog barked at him from his backyard. Wally looked while walking, c/t.

Then on the way back, there was even MORE activity and some people playing basketball. When he looked at them (and the sounds of the ball hitting the rim, etc) c/t. Then a kid came up. Wally didn't even flinch, he just sat and looked at him. Another c/t. He said put while the kid pet him and I even talked to the kid some and he (Wally) didn't care. I gave a piece of the treat (apple cake - really high value to him and he was really hungry since it's been 13 hr since his last meal) to the kid and Wally took it out his hand! 

Another kid came up and knew I was training him to walk off-leash  (Oh, I didn't mention he was off-leash this whole time?) so that was a nice surprise (always good to see kids understanding dogs, even had good body language - didn't stare at Wally, moved slowly, stood sideways, pet the neck/side instead of over his head). Gave this kid some of the apple cake (which he also recognized, well almost - he called it carrot cake) and Wally ate from his hand too.

Then, just on the way home, he saw a tiny little girl (probably 2 year old) running towards him. He stood still and looked, c/t. I asked him to sit as she got closer. He did, c/t. Then the girl walked, literally, about 3 inches from his nose. Wally just sniffed her as she went by. Click and more treats. 

Basically, it was a perfect walk. I certainly would take this the whole time, every time - especially with him being off-leash the whole time. Never would imagine he'd eat from a kid's hand. Granted, those kids (both have dogs - one has a 23 year old Dalmatian  ) are probably "easy" on the challenge scale (not the screaming high-pitched chaotic type), but I'll take it. It got him rewarded in the face of kids and up close.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Wow..Wally is doing awesome.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You aren't worried that Wally will spook at something and run off? I've always been leery of Marge offleash. I'll only do it at the beach when no one else is there (but I myself am with someone) and I have tons of treats and she's dragging a 20' line.

Anyway, sounds like he is making progress. Great clicker work.  

Marge met a couple of men who are working on the house next door. Thankfully they didn't try to pet her and just kind of offered their hands to her, so she went right over to them.. and the pizza box they were sitting next to. LOL. But she did give them a couple of tail wags, so that was nice.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> You aren't worried that Wally will spook at something and run off?


Of course I am  I won't go off-leash if I was walking down a busy street but in the neighborhood where he can't get into any mess even if he did run - sure. 

However, he'll never get better at it if he gets no experience. I also want him to control himself on his own - not just because he's got limited range of motion.

If he can learn to sit there, even if going over to being afraid, without the limit/crutch/security(?) of the leash, then he's really learning control.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Of course I am  I won't go off-leash if I was walking down a busy street but in the neighborhood where he can't get into any mess even if he did run - sure.
> 
> However, he'll never get better at it if he gets no experience. I also want him to control himself on his own - not just because he's got limited range of motion.
> 
> If he can learn to sit there, even if going over to being afraid, without the limit/crutch/security(?) of the leash, then he's really learning control.


It must be great to trust your dog in those situations. My neighborhood is far too busy for that kind of work. Guess that's living in NYC! Seems like you're both enjoying it, though! 

(Marge also has no control of herself around squirrels  - which makes offleash a no-go right now)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> It must be great to trust your dog in those situations. My neighborhood is far too busy for that kind of work. Guess that's living in NYC! Seems like you're both enjoying it, though!
> 
> (Marge also has no control of herself around squirrels  - which makes offleash a no-go right now)


Oh, if I were in NYC, I probably couldn't do this either  I'm sure there's PLENTY that could cause enough concerns in a big city to add off-leash dog to the list.

Wally in a big city - now there's a test. I don't know if he'd be freaked out or overly curious!

Yeah, the squirrel (or cat, or bird) thing was an issue for Wally too. I put the chasing on a cue. Sometimes when walk towards the critter, I'd say "go get it!" and he'll run after it. Then I'll call him back after letting him have some fun and give him a reward. 

Sometimes I'll cue "Wait" and that freezes him. Then "Go get it!"

He's got it down pretty good. Sometimes he'll freeze (waiting on his own) in hopes that I'll give the go ahead. Sometimes I do, just to keep him feeling like it's worthwhile for him to defer to me in the situation. He'll return on his own after some distance too - so it's like we made a chain for him to follow and have some fun while I still get some control/management of the situation.

Sometimes he'll get a "leave it" so we keep walking. The 'inconsistency' has him waiting for the direction (can I, huh? can I can I can I?) so that he doesn't jump to the chase in anticipation of the "Go get it!" .


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

3rd night this week of mild thunder & lightning. Not a twitch to be seen from the sleeping Poca. She looked mildly annoyed when a particularly big boom woke her up. But she just went back to sleep like nothing happened.

I really thought storms would have her running for cover since she's never experienced them before. I wonder why some dogs develop fear of them and others don't. I had a schnauzer years ago who never had a problem with storms until she ran away one day and we didn't find her until the next day. There was a bad storm the night she was gone. Every time we had a storm after that she would shake and try to hide under the bed or under the covers. Easy to figure out the source of her fear. Other dogs I've known didn't seem to have anything happen in their lives to create the fear. In any case, I'm hoping she keeps up this total lack of interest in our crazy weather.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

yay for Poca!! Tiberius is good with storms too...but he pace the house he whole time. *sigh*

Tiberius is in the midst of a big test. He is staying at my mom's for a week and a half while I'm on vacation. He has his buddy, Casanova, to play with but still...I worry about it. I miss him already.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It's been rough the past couple of days.

For once I'm going to be lazy and not re-type everything. You can read it on my blog.

http://margebl0g.blogspot.com/2009/05/havin-rough-time-of-it.html



> The last couple of days have shown the grim side of dog ownership, when behaviors pop up that you wish you could just send away instantly.
> 
> Rally class was.. stressful. I wish I didn't even take it. It's packed with 9 dogs in a training room that would be better suited for 6. Marge carried on a lot in the beginning and it was impossible to keep her focus. She snapped at another dog. When she finally did calm down, she wasn't having fun like she does at agility. She did welcome pets from two kids and had a GOOD social interaction with their Border Collie at the end. But, overall, I don't think either of us liked it.
> 
> ...


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

Dunixi, hope Ti's stay at your mom goes well. 

Sorry about your setback, MissMutt. There are always good and bad days. The bad days seem so much tougher after a run of good days, don't they?

I've been thinking ahead . . . I'm still new to this whole dog-owning thing. And the Fourth of July is coming up. I don't know how Cupid will react to fireworks. He does tend to bark at strange sounds. Any thoughts on how to prepare him (and the new puppy) for the sounds they might hear?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It's never the same, but there is audio available for things like thunder and (probably?) fireworks. You might want to try finding one of those and desensitizing him to the sound increasingly.

For this Fourth of July I'm planning on probably using something herbal in conjunction with a lot of treat-giving. It doesn't reinforce fear; it pairs the scary noise with something good. I hope it rains and no one can do fireworks, though.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I wonder how Wally will do with the 4th of July this year also. Last year wasn't so hot (though he did learn to go up/down stairs). 

He was clearly freaked and just was a shaking mess. It was hard to even get him to go potty (but I insisted that he did, and, eventually, he did).

Hopefully, the progress we've made will carry the day this time around.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Well, it's been an up and down sort of week for us around here....

Things started going downhill when we had a major storm that downed literally thousands of trees in our local area...Brenna doesn't seem to mind storms at all, so that is good. But hubby and I had to be away from home alot in the following 2-3 days helping with clean-up, and Brenna never likes it when we are gone for long. She doesn't do anything destructive when we are gone, so I'm not sure if it's separation anxiety. It seems more like she has to rebuild trust in us again when we come back home...more with my husband than with me. I think she is also very sensitive to changes in our routine, which I would expect with a collie anyway, but even the tiniest change seems to cause her worry and stress.

Then later in the week, hubby built a new shed in the yard for his scooter (we don't have/can't afford a garage)...this was not a good thing for Brenna. A building suddenly appeared out of nowhere off the side of the deck...and she really didn't know what to make of it. At first, she would charge down the steps and run out in the yard to get away from the shed before going potty. I did get her to come close to it using some hot dogs as bait, but she is still getting used to this big "thing" in the yard. At least she is no longer running past it to get far away from it, though.

Oh, and then we had a strange/stressful experience on a couple of our walks...but that will have to wait for another post...it's getting late!

Anyway, we did have some ups, too. We had a new friend over for dinner and Brenna was actually pretty interested in coming over and sniffing her hands right away. She didn't really tuck her tail or go hide in her crate at all.

Brenna also has been having less fearful responses when cars drive by when we are walking. Sometimes she wants to stop when they pass, and others she will just keep going...but she hasn't been pulling on the leash to get home faster once they go by like she used to.

And she has been going up to hubby for petting on her own! This is so great to see...he is so happy when she wants to be near him, and it makes me happy to know that she is slowly gaining trust in him. Every day is a new day, but each little step of progress is worth the time!


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MM - I'm sorry Marge seems to be regressing. Maybe it's like an extinction burst -- it gets worse just before the behavior disappears? I might not be understanding the concept properly, but it's a good thought to hang on to, no?

Dunixi - I hope Tiberius does well at your mom's. Good that he has a pal to hang with while you're gone. 

CocoaCream - that is real progress with your husband! I can deal with my dog being afraid of _things_. With things, I know that I can work with her to get her over it pretty quickly. It's when she's fearful of people that I get discouraged. That is so much tougher to fix. So I'm voting and I say that 1 pet from your husband wipes out 10 fearful responses to other stuff. The math is on your side!

Guess my glass was half full today.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Thanks, winnie...yes, the progress with DH is the most rewarding. Brenna actually surprises me with him sometimes. For example, she easily will go to the back door with him to go out and go potty, which is a really big deal, considering that when she first came to us she was scared to go to the bathroom, period. She also did something funny/cute with him that I forgot to mention last night.... He took her outside to go on a little walk, but stopped by the car to get his sunglasses out. As soon as he opened the door, Brenna hopped in and went to sit on the passenger side seat. She was all excited and ready to go for a ride!  He let her sit there a minute because she was so happy before having her get out so they could actually go for a walk. She really likes to go for trips in the car! So yesterday, as a reward for getting through the past week of craziness, I took her on a little "field trip" to the nearby state park for a walk in the woods. She had a great time, and it was nice for both of us to get out and enjoy the scenery. 

I've decided that I really need to get a clicker and try using that to help train/desensitize Brenna. I know I should have gotten one a long time ago, but I have been hesitant because I don't really know much about clicker training. But since there are so many great resources on the net, and here on the forums, I don't really have any excuses not to give it a go. Plus, all these success stories about Wally have me really motivated!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It's possible that it's some sort of relapse before things get better again, but I think it's more likely that the change in the dog situation around here has freaked her out. (See here: http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/52065-patrolling-wrong-fence.html) It ALL started right after this dog moved in. It's not even the other dog's "fault," per se.. its the fact that the existing dog who she used to play with now is out to kill her.

I certainly have a lot to think about right now. I don't know if it's just the weather, it's hot here, but she doesn't seem her normal, happy self. 

I think I'm going to call the vet just to touch base with him on this stuff. See what he thinks.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MM - the neighbor dog situation stinks. I hope Marge is ok - let us know what the vet thinks. It certainly sounds like the situation could be making her reactive.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Thanks winnie. I spoke to the vet and he basically thinks that that's what is doing it too. He says to give it a little more time, keep her away from "new things" and stressful situations, and give him a call back in 2-3 weeks.

Fortunately we had two good nights yesterday and today, going down to the beach to sniff, roll, run around and be a dog. Just kind of keeping her doing the things she likes (agility, walks in 'natural' places, etc) and slowly working my way back up. 

I am worried about going back to Rally on Sunday, but I have to be strong for Marge's sake. Fortunately my trainer is great and she's going to allow me to kind of have my own little corner of the training hall to set up in and distract Marge. I'm going to bring the yummiest treats possible and see how it goes. If there's ever a really bad day, I won't bring her at all and I'll go watch the classes myself without her.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, I can imagine that's a disheartening situation, especially after seeing such progress.

Hopefully, she's healthy so no medicine or such will be needed, just some reassurance, patience, and guidance. That's something I think all us fearful dog guardians have (or develop) in spades.

Sadly, I don't know what else to tell you except to keep your spirits up and be as at ease as possible so Marge can continue to see everything is alright.

Here's hoping you and her can continue to work through the situation.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Thanks KB. 

I'm NOT getting my hopes too high, but I am hoping that all the measures I'm taking are more precautionary rather than 100% necessary. At the beach, she seemed fine with the presence of people, but I still didn't bring her too close. 

Maybe she would have been fine along the boardwalk - but what if she wasn't? To absolutely ensure that there would be no negative reaction, I'm keeping her away from the situation altogether. It IS busy it, it's the SUMMER in NYC so there is a lot going on. Keeping her away also ensures that she won't be put into a situation where someone tries to socialize with her, but she doesn't want to. That's the idea behind keeping her away from strange dogs, too. Because even if she's happy to see Dog A, what if Dog B comes up, and she finds her scary, and she thinks she's going to have to interact (since I allowed her to with Dog A)?

Fortunately I'm 100% free of things to do until June 1, so we have a LOT of time to hit up the parks, beaches, etc and we will work our way back up slowly.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Yeah, your approach is probably one I need to learn and use more of. 

I'm too much of a mind to give him experience and then use that experience to help him have confidence and to learn how to cope (instead of just running). Then when he slows down, he can actually read a situation instead of insta-assuming it's one he needs to get away from.

Like today - six people (either two families or one large one) gathered around Wally and asked me the usual questions (how old? Boy/girl? How'd you get him? etc) and he was not just fine, but basically perfect. Yeah, he hid behind me a little at first, but after talking to them a little and then backing up to let them come to him, he was fine. He didn't run or anything. He even lied down when they pet him calmly. He was sniffing them/the air around them and just being a happy little dog enjoying the attention.

Then later on that same walk - a lone little girl wanted to pet him and he was like "I want out - now!" again. I don't know - maybe the girl smelled bad to him or something, but I was thinking - he's fine with a crowd that included four kids, but one lone kid and he's scared?

So now I wonder if I should have just avoided all the people - or just went back in after the successful meeting or not, or just keep playing "Look at That" with people and try again in a week or so. *sigh*


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

If you're interested, I can PM you the link to a blog that I have found VERY helpful. There's at least 2-3 years of content on it and searching through and reading some of the stuff has helped me form some of my plans for Marge's training.

I was never this type of person either with Marge. But honestly, right now, having her do well in a low traffic situation is better than having her fail (or possibly fail) in a higher traffic situation. I read her reactive incidents as her trying to say "whoa, take it down a notch please."

I am also a firm firm firm believer in ending on a good note. Might just be my own superstitions but I really try to make it that way no matter what.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Please do. I'm always interested in more information.

Still at a loss for the one kid thing. I guess it was like a "lone wolf" to him, maybe a crowd is more predictable for him or makes more sense to him instead of just one person. 

I don't know - doesn't seem to make any sense, even from a fearful standpoint.

I've always wondered about ending on a positive. From Wally, I can't tell if that matters much to him. Sometimes, we've had "bad" sessions (not with socialization so much, but in general) where I just stopped because I was getting frustrated and he was getting into "shaking mode" (this was especially the case when I threw him into shaping. I thought he'd never get it) and we couldn't even get one or two successful trails.

Then the next day (or even an hour later), he does it like it was old hat. So I don't know what goes on in his head a lot of times.


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## Hound (May 20, 2009)

Having a fearful or anxious dog can be very frustrating for dog owners. Help your pet overcome his fear. Try to get down to the root of the situation but keenly observing the specific things that trigger your dog’s fear such as sounds, movements or people. Slowly introduce your dog to the neighborhood by walking him everyday with a leash. If the situation proves to be severe, it’s best that you consult a professional.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You know, I find your post kind of insulting. Don't you think that all of the people in this thread are already doing those things? Maybe you should read the thread before coming on here and telling us to walk our dogs with a leash. I think we're a little more knowledgeable than you're giving us credit for.


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## w8ing4rain (Sep 4, 2008)

Nanuq loves to ride in the car but only in the daytime. She is terrified if we take her in the car at night. She cowers in the backseat and trembles. The only thing worse than getting in a car at night is getting out of the car. She was found wandering in a rural area. I suspect someone dumped her at night. When we try to get her out of the car she freaks out. I think she is afraid we are leaving her somewhere. 

I have been taking her for really short trips at night. I want her to see that she comes back home. Last night I had to go out to the store. She actually came running to the door when I put my jacket on. She wanted to go with me. I didn't take her because it would have meant leaving her alone in the car but it was huge that she actually wanted to go. 

Maybe a little midnight trip through the drive thru with a bit of hamburger for
reward if she doesn't freak out would be helpful.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Like Miss Mutt said, Hound, you need to read the posts here and see that a) we know what it's like working with a fearful dog since we deal with it everyday, and b) We've done all that and more. Don't need the standard pat answers.


This isn't a thread for the cookie-cutter standard responses. It's a thread to share experiences/what worked for you, a place to brag on the victories and support for the defeats, and trying to figure out the sources/causes of fear (i.e. we already know that we need to do that) and how to eliminate them.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Slightly O/T, but I just want to bring this quote to attention.. I think it's a good thing to live by with these dogs:

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."

I'm no history buff but I think it was Winston Churchill who said that. And in the context of our fearful dogs, it makes so much sense. So often I get caught up in thinking HOW LONG we've gone without a bad spell, only to be discouraged the next time Marge growls at something or cowers in fear (or both). But that's not the way it should be. With these dogs, you really do need to live in the moment, and realize that today's victory might be gone tomorrow, and that tomorrow's defeat might be ancient history the day after. With the recent changes in Marge's behavior, I feel like its so important to remember that... and what matters most is that we keep trudging on, looking to bite fear in the butt, and one day give our dogs the closest thing to a "normal" doggy life as we can.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Excellent reminder, MissMutt! Celebrate each victory, no matter how small it may seem at the moment!

The last couple days have been good one for Brenna, back in our normal routine for the most part. She has really been enjoying her walks, and I've been impressed with how much progress she's making where passing cars are concerned. In fact, yesterday a big ole' dump truck full of dirt was making it's way down our road just as we were starting out on our morning walk. It passed by us twice, but it didn't phase her a bit! Yay! 

Today I'm going to Petco to see if I can find a clicker and maybe a treat-ball or puzzle toy that will get Brenna using that incredible collie brain of hers. I think we're both finally ready to really start a good training regimine at home. Wish us luck!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sounds great! Glad to hear you are making progress. You really have done a great job with her.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Thank doG: a good day today.

We took a nice, looong trip to the park. She was great and it was the perfect setting for her. A few dogs, a few people, some annoying teenagers, and Marge was pretty much fine. Maybe a LITTLE bit more alert about certain things than usual, but didn't react. Fine around just regular passing people, bikes, and joggers.

We did pass some sort of small dog, maybe a Papillon, and Marge kind of "perked up" and it was too late for me to get her attention, but she didn't look like she wanted to bark or aggress, I think she just wanted to go and sniff and maybe play. Unfortunately for her, it wasn't allowed this time. I am proud of myself for having NO new dog or people interactions with her today.

We concluded the day with a hike in the very thick wooded, empty park of the park, which she enjoyed. Now my grandmother is over to visit, and Marge likes her, so I think we had a great day.


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## Chels_girl (Aug 2, 2008)

Hi guys I thought I"d post a few questions here see if anyone has any ideas.

My brother and sister-in-law has Kali's sisters, Zoe and Sadie. My brother and sister-in-law work all day nearly every day, and aren't exactly dog people to say the least.
Sadie is 10 months old, weighs 75 pounds and is the most nervous, anxious dog I have ever seen, she obsesses over everything. She will stand at our dining room window and stare outside for nearly an hour straight, and she stalks our backyard fence to see if she can see our neighbors dogs who we almost never see anymore. 
Her biggest problem is what a nervey dog she is. If there is a person she doesn't know in the house, she will refuse to be inside, if you make her stay inside she can't stop pacing. If the new person moves at all she sort of panics. She has never had a bad experience with people, though my brother and sister-in-law didn't socialize them at all. 
Sadie is obsessive over Sydney, my 5 year old mini aussie. She will sort of bombard her in the face, she paws, licks and is generally very annoying. Syd does her best to get after her for it, but it doesn't seem to be any good.
I only get to see them on the weekends, friday night to sunday evening when my brother and sister-in-law are here. We had them for about 10 days a few weeks ago and I realized how bad they are right now. I feel horrible and want to know if anyone has any ideas for me? 
My sister-in-law is stuborn, and won't listen to me at all, though I am trying. My brother, as much as I love him doesn't really care. 
I wasn't sure if this went here, but I hoped to actually get some information that might help.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MM - great & appropriate quote. Another Churchill quote that applies: Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm. I selected my forum name because I'm a great admirer of Churchill. If I ever feel down or like I just want to quit, I look to him for inspiration. Glad Marge had a good day. Here's to hoping Sunday goes well, too. 

Speaking of new things that may be causing a reaction....Not sure if this is an example but it's the only explanation that I can come up with: Poca wouldn't pee this morning. She went the night before around 11:00 pm. I got her up around 9:00 (lazy work at home day) to eat and go outside but she wouldn't go potty. She just stood there. Took her on two walks + 2 other chances to go and she still wouldn't go. She did finally go around 2:00-2:30. This is a dog that gets up and goes potty every day in the same spot, no problem. 

What was different today? The windows were open. We finally had a warm enough day to open a few windows. Hard to believe but we've been in this house for 8 months and this is the first time we needed to do that. So she went from window to window to window to window, just looking and listening, barking a little. It was like she felt she had to keep an eye on all sides of the house at once. And she didn't like it. She was suddenly hearing neighborhood noises she had never heard before, which I think was making her nervous. So nervous that she didn't want to pee. 

Or not, LOL! Maybe she just didn't have to go. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...We'll see how it goes (or not!) tomorrow.

W8ing4rain -- I think that sounds like a great idea! A little mickey-Ds goes a long way with Poca.

CocoaCream - yay Brenna! Getting over movement + loud sounds is big. Let us know how the clicker thing goes. I've tried it a little with Poca but not enough to know whether it will help her. I'd be very interested to know how you progress with it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

winnie - LOL now I understand your screen name! That's pretty cool - and that quote makes a lot of sense too.

Marge has days, too, where she doesn't want to go in the morning. I've never figured out what it was, but her not going seems to be correlated with really hot days. So I don't know if maybe there's just no excess water to get rid of, or what. I think digestion is also slowed down when it's warm, too. Let us know.

Chels girl - There's probably not TOO much you can do in terms of breaking that dog of her fears by seeing her only a couple days a week. It takes a lot of consistent work, day in and day out. Sadly, if her owners don't want to commit, it makes the whole thing so hard  

How is Sadie around you? Will she take food from you? Does she consider you "not scary?" If so, maybe you can start some basic counterconditioning stuff with her using treats.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

missmutt---Yay for Marge! Isn't it good to have a nice, happy, relaxed time out with your pup? So rewarding! 

winniec---that's interesting about Poca. I can see how the windows being open for the first time, hearing lots of new sounds that belong outside coming INSIDE could throw her off. I'm glad Brenna hasn't had that problem because we have the windows open alot here!

I went to PetCo yesterday and got a clicker (after searching the entire store, having to ask a cashier, then watching her search only to find they were in a shopping cart waiting to be re-shelved!) as well as a fun-looking thing called an "Amaze-a-Ball." You put treats in one end, and as the ball rolls around, the treats eventually work their way out a hole in the other side. I'm hoping that it will motivate Brenna to play with a toy and put her problem solving skills into action. So far, she hasn't figured it out...but she knows there are treats in there, so she keeps licking the opening, hoping she'll find something tasty! I started "charging the clicker" a little yesterday, and found that she is a bit nervous about it. Anytime I'm holding something in my hand, she is concerned that it may be something that will hurt her, so I probably will have to keep it in my pocket until she learns that the sound it makes is always followed by good things, not bad ones. 

Also, we had a big "happening" last night, and I was very proud of Brenna! DH's dad came to spend the night with us, and this was the first time that Brenna had met him. He arrived after dark, and Brenna heard/saw him in the driveway and started barking...alot... I realized that noone has ever visited at night before, so this was a new, frightening thing for her. But once he came in and sat down, she calmed down enough to take a few pieces of hot dog from his hand. Before long, she even let him pet her on the head! This morning she continued to gain confidence and even came up to him for petting a few times. Positive interaction with men like that is sooooo important for Brenna as they seem to be her biggest fear. I was so happy to see her warm up to him as quickly as she did. It reminded me how far she has come in just a couple of months!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Great Rally class today. No barking, snarking or growling. Marge was able to navigate the courses efficiently and seemed to have more fun doing it than last time. I think Agility will always be her first love, but maybe she'll develop a fondness for Rally too.

Sadly, it decided to thunderstorm during the last 10 minutes of class, so that freaked her out a little bit.. hopefully she doesn't start to associate the training hall with loud scary storms.  Guess we'll find out next week.

ETA: Brenna really has come far in the past few months, Cocoa. I bet you can't even believe the progress that you've made. So happy you had a good experience with a man for Brenna, and here's to 1000 more just like it in the days to come 

As for treat toys, I'm wondering if she'd like the Premier Waggle.. we use it a lot for Marge. It's not too complicated, but tricky enough that it can take a while, especially depending on how big the treats inside of it are.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Glad to hear everyone is having good days with their dogs, for the most part. That quote is so very true. I just got back from 11 days away from my doggie. He did so beautifully while I was gone. Had a couple accidents while at my mom's house but no dog fights or anything.  I am glad to be home. I missed my mutt.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm sure he missed you, too! Is he pretty vocal? I love the throat rumbles Poca makes - cracks me up every time. And earns her treats, so of course she does it whenever she wants something now.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Hei s pretty quiet actually Winnie. Once and a while he does this little whine/bark that sounds too small for his big ol' body but that is about it. He is alot more outgoing now then he was when I left. A week and a half with another dog did great things for him.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Wow that's awesome! I guess your mom's dog helped him to come out of his shell. Oh and I hope you enjoyed your trip.

I wish I had more play opportunities with dogs for Marge. But there are just too many unpredictable dogs around here.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius only has a few dogs he gets to socialize with. Only three dogs in my neighborhood and my mom's dog. When I came home from running errands, he actually barked a bit.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Had a great experience on a walk today. I was walking along, Marge had just had a sniff session with her friend, Jack, from behind his gate (he is too rambunctious to play with her). I'm walking home and all of a sudden a little girl comes running by, maybe about 10 years old. I had the feeling she was running up to me but I wasn't sure, and since I didn't want her to run up to Marge unexpectedly, I moved to the side and put Marge in a sit. She did, sure enough, come up to us, but I blocked Marge from her with my body and told her that she is afraid of people. I am VERY proud for Marge not reacting to her. I continued on walking for about 20 feet, Marge at heel position at my left, I was giving her treats to keep her focused, the girl was walking next to me, telling me that her dog is afraid of bigger dogs, etc (you know how little kids are lol) and I offered to her that she could give my dog a treat. I reminded her to always be careful of strange dogs and not run up to them. So she gave her the treat, and pat Marge on the head, and walked away. So proud of my girl for allowing me to handle the situation. Marge generally likes kids as long as they're not loud and wild, but you never know so you can't take any chances.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Woohoo MM!! Glad to hear Marge was so well behaved and had such a wonderful walk.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Any updates from anyone?

We had another good day today.. too tired to post too much, but she had a play session with her Spaniel friend and seems to be warming up to his (male) owner. Went to Rally and didn't have any incidents either though she was a bit afraid of the wing banging things around outside.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well, we did _nothing_ yesterday, again. Yesterday I started my fasting, (not for religious purposes.) so I was pretty wore out, weak and tired. But I think today we're going to go outside here by my apartment and do our training there, I just don't have the gas for a trip to the DP today, even though there are so many bonuses of going there.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

We had our first big summer storm yesterday, and aside from trying to sit in my lap, Tiberius did really well. I am impressed with him.  The cats were more freaked out then he was. Tiberius is more confident in getting in and out of my car, so it makes taking him place so much easier! I think once the weather clears up and bills are paid me and him are going to take a road trip to Indiana to see my uncle and his dogs.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Any updates from anyone?
> 
> We had another good day today.. too tired to post too much, but she had a play session with her Spaniel friend and seems to be warming up to his (male) owner. Went to Rally and didn't have any incidents either though she was a bit afraid of the wing banging things around outside.



Not too much in the way of updates here. Just continual work in progress at this point. Wally's improving still, but still the fear flares up although it's more of trying to "walk faster" than OMG I need to get away, NOW!

Not so much afraid of new objects anymore, but now it's a thing about space. Like if there's two unknown objects he has to fit between, he'll hesitate and then go fast between them. 

I make him do it over and over until he can walk controlled between them. If I can't stop the fear, I can have him still behave in a steady/controlled manner. Then he seems to realize he was afraid of nothing after a while and it's no big deal to go between them.

Sounds can still trigger him, and still especially loud kid's voices. It's a consistency thing since there's not always loud kids to train/expose him with so it's harder to really help him.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

I guess I do have some updates to add: Brenna has been doing well lately. Clicker training is fun, and she loves the opportunity to work for a bit of hot dog or chicken!  So far I've been working on training her to sit and to touch a target stick. I wasn't using any cues at first, but I am starting to add them in now. She is alot better at targetting than I expected, and she is getting better about sitting right away. She used to sort of wander a round a bit, trying to figure out other ways to get the treat, but I think she has learned that the fastest way to earn it is just to sit...quickly!  Hubby and I are also starting to work on her recall between the two of us. She is really bad about coming to him sometimes, and for her well-being, she needs to be confident in coming to either of us when called. Hopefully, we'll be able to use training to build her trust in both of us. The only thing I wonder about is just how much time to spend training each day. I probably only do about 10 minutes a day at this point, and Brenna always seems ready to keep going longer. Should I do more? I do want to start working on a few things outside with her as well, so maybe we could do one session inside and one outside later on in the day?

We did have a bad experience while out a walk last week...I could hear some men working in the woods, chopping down a tree or hammering something, I don't know. We couldn't see them, so I didn't know how far in they were, but I wasn't worried because the tree line is a few yards away from the side of the road. However, as we rounded the corner where they were working, two dogs suddently jumped out of the tall grass and came at us. I immediately recognized one of them as a dog that has threatened me and Brenna in the past and yelled to the men in the woods to please come get their dogs immediately! Thankfully, one guy was there before the aggressive dog got close to us, and he called them both off and ran them home. But that was the end of our walk for the evening! If Brenna's little heart was beating half as fast as mine was after that, I wouldn't blame her. It was just such a shock to suddenly have these two large dogs jump out at us from nowhere! Thankfully, since then I noticed that the owners have fixed a fenced area for all four of their dogs to stay in, so I'm hoping that is where they will keep them when outdoors. These people know that I will call animal control if their dogs are ever loose and unsupervised, but I still don't fully trust them to keep them contained. It is so frustrating. Thankfully, Brenna is not afraid to walk past that house, although she does walk faster when the other dogs are out barking at her. I just wish that people wouldn't be so irresponsible, especially when they know their dogs are aggressive!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Brenna knows this is her home, and she's definitely found her voice! 

When we first brought B home, we were told she didn't really bark, not that she couldn't...she just chose not to. I think she was actually too afraid that she'd get yelled at for barking. Gradually over the past three months, she has lost alot of inhibition and has begun barking occasionally at the neighbor or kids passing on the street... But yesterday and today she has really shown me that she "owns" the space around our house. 

Yesterday I took her out for a potty break, and four squirrels were in the yard. She immediately went on high alert--tail high in the air, barking and chasing after them. Now this may seem like no big deal to most dog-owners...but for us, this is priceless because Brenna never holds her tail high or wags it. And she doesn't play, so we never get to see her running around the yard. Then this morning the same thing happened, only with a deer...oh, and she was on her training leash, so she couldn't chase after it. But to hear Brenna bark as if to say, "Hey, this is my house and my grass...keep out!" and to see that fluffy collie tail of hers standing like a flag in the wind....I just loved it!  I think we may have a guard dog in the making after all!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

That's great! I'm happy for your and Brenna. I'm hoping Wally does that as well. One night he looked in a direction and started growling and wagging his tail (?) so I don't know what that was about or if it was the start of what Brenna's doing.

I'm trying to encourage Wally to use his voice more. He's getting better indoors (though sometimes he still needs encouraging) but outdoors we won't bark much unless I get him going with cue bark-then play chase-stop until he barks on his own-play chase and so on.

Hopefully, he'll one day make a breakthrough.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

A rather remarkable thing happened today. I live near an elementary school, and this morning I took the boys for a walk. A young girl stopped and asked if she could pet them. I said yes, if they allow it, fully expecting Cupid to shy away.

Instead, the girl held out her hand, and Clayton AND Cupid leaned in to sniff. Cupid went right up to her hand. He retreated after that, but I was so proud that he was curious and willing to try.

This girl had a very nice manner with dogs. Wish more kids were like that.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Awww...Good to hear Thracian. 

When I took Tiberius out this afternoon, a loud lawnmower went by and Tiberius sat down and watched it go by.  He didn't run away, he didn't cry...nope...just sat down and watched.  I is soooooo proud.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Can't give much details (short on time), but Wally actually pulled TOWARDS three dogs walking.


Edit: The details

Wally and I saw three dogs being walked. They all looked at him and one made sort of a hah-hah-hah sound and Wally perked up. He was sniffing and trying to follow them. One in particular seemed to catch his interest and that one sort of did a high-pitched...wouldn't call it a bark but it was like a wooo-rooo-rooo sound and Wally really wanted to follow
him then. 

Was nice to see him take an interest in dogs that way instead of trying to get away from them.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Great stuff, guys.. 

I went to the park yesterday with Marge and she was alright. Still keeping her away from other dogs, sometimes it's hard to get her attention off of them but she did okay. We went into a stream and Marge took the plunge up to her elbows.. I'm so excited, she's getting used to water!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Anything new from anyone this week?

Brenna has been doing so well around the house and out in our neighborhood that I decided to take her somewhere new today. We drove into town and went to an empty soccer field. I had hoped that she would plunge into the grass and be all excited about the new sights and smells, like she does when we go hike in the woods at the state park. But instead, she acted all panicky, pulling at the leash and trying to go back to the car. I did get her to walk around a little bit, then I sat down at a picnic table in the shade and just let her stand there and take in all the sounds and new things she was seeing. She calmed down enough to stand still and let me pet her quite a while, but she wouldn't take any treats (which I expected) and was not really relaxed. We also stopped for a bit at a park next to a municipal pool and a busy street, just so I could see how she would act there. Again, I sat at a picnic table and let her take it all in, but it was obvious that the traffic noise was really bothering her, as she kept pacing back and forth. It seemed like she wasn't as concerned about the people around as she was the cars out on the street. But we were pretty far away from the people anyway. 

I have to wonder if poor Brenna had ever even been to a park before today, by the way she acted. So sad.... And what's worse is that I really don't know how to help her overcome these fears. I mean, if she won't take treats, and she doesn't really seem to be all that comforted by petting and talking to her, what else can I do? Should I just keep exposing her to these new places, even though she doesn't like them, in hopes that she will learn that they are not so scary? I am feeling a bit discouraged now.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Ran into a forward and bold little pup on a walk. Being the curious and bold pup that he is, he ran up to Wally and wanted to sniff him to death.

Wally, though, had other ideas *sigh*. He was starting to run away, but he was still listening for me so I got him to sit. He still didn't like the other pup sniffing him  He did a lot of growling.

But he stopped shaking after a while - it was getting more like how he used to be towards the neighbor's dog where they hashed out a way to interact. Of course, what was most funny is that the pup wanted Wally's scent so bad he'd sniff where Wally was sitting. He was going to town on the grass sniffing.

When it started turning sour, I got the pups attention and he started sniffing me. Sweet little dog - it's too bad Wally doesn't like him  This pup is FASCINATED by Wally for some reason. He even ran across the street  to come up to Wally again. It was interesting on one level. I gathered up the little guy and held him until one of his handlers could come get him.

On the plus side, he was good with a group of strange kids around him. It seems he's getting his confidence around people, even kids. At first he backed up a little, but then he sat down and started getting curious about them (sniffing their hands, and kids LOVE getting sniffed for some reason) and sniffing the air around them and just being nice.

Got more work to do around the dogs, though. Of course, consistency is still a problem. Kids/people will be more common now with summer getting into swing, but dogs aren't too frequent, and I can't really pick out too much of a pattern of why some dogs Wally will want to approach and others, not so much.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius got to meet two complete strangers today. I stopped into Rite Aid on the way home, and was keeping an eye on the car while I was inside..the cashier asked why I was watching the car and I told her my dog was out there and I was trying to keep an eye on him. She asked what type of dog and I told her a husky/shepard mix. Both cashiers asked if they could meet him. He, happily, leapt from the car and walked with me across the parking lot to meet them. He was an absolute angel while both girls were petting him, then he jumped right back in my car.  I am proud.

On another note, a fearful owner note. My mom's husband let their dog, Casanova, in the house while I was there. This is the dog that normally would try to come after me. He was all waggy tails and fun. He behaved wonderfully. Even did some basic obediance with me.  I am still not sure I trust him...but it was nice to get to sit in the house with my dog and mom's.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I posted in this thread once in the passed about Jonas being extremely fearful, but we have been seeing a behaviorist for the past few months and there are obvious leaps and bounds that our group sessions have changed. Before, a man entering the house was the worst thing that could ever happen to him. Normally I would take him to a different floor with me to avoid how overwhelmed he could get. Today, the electrician showed up and was in the house while Jonas and I were in the bathroom. We walked out and I thought "ohh noooo." and Jonas followed up by doing NOTHING. No lunging, snarling, submissive peeing, ANY THING. He approached the man, smelled his shoes for a bit, and then followed me while I prepared his lunch. 

Also, big step, he ate while the guy was in our house. Normally, he would not touch his food with someone other than my boyfriend and I around. I feel like he's finally becoming a happier dog.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

CocoaCream said:


> I have to wonder if poor Brenna had ever even been to a park before today, by the way she acted. So sad.... And what's worse is that I really don't know how to help her overcome these fears. I mean, if she won't take treats, and she doesn't really seem to be all that comforted by petting and talking to her, what else can I do? Should I just keep exposing her to these new places, even though she doesn't like them, in hopes that she will learn that they are not so scary? I am feeling a bit discouraged now.


I haven't found any magic cure for this. Poca is great at parks but around strange buildings, strip malls, & other busy places she acts just like Brenna. I usually take her somewhere I know she's going to be shy and start walking her and doing basic obedience with great treats as far from the commotion as I can. I keep moving closer and closer, pulling back whenever she won't obey a command or take a treat. It's a slow process but it seems to be working. Keeping her in one spot and forcing her to endure doesn't seem to work for her - backing off to a distance that is less stressful works better. Maybe others will have better ideas.



KBLover said:


> On the plus side, he was good with a group of strange kids around him. Got more work to do around the dogs, though...I can't really pick out too much of a pattern of why some dogs Wally will want to approach and others, not so much.


That's good news about the kids! Any progress is good, right? I understand what you mean about it being hard to read other dogs. Dogs throw signals at each other so fast that I can't predict what's going to happen when we meet them. I've been studying Brenda Aloff's book of photos of dog behavior, which is helping. I just need to get around more dogs to start connecting the dots. I'd like to go to the dog park, but I won't take Poca there and she would never forgive me for going without her - lol!



Dunixi said:


> He was an absolute angel while both girls were petting him, then he jumped right back in my car.  I am proud.


I would be proud, too! Some day...



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Today, the electrician showed up and was in the house while Jonas and I were in the bathroom. We walked out and I thought "ohh noooo." and Jonas followed up by doing NOTHING. No lunging, snarling, submissive peeing, ANY THING. He approached the man, smelled his shoes for a bit, and then followed me while I prepared his lunch.
> 
> Also, big step, he ate while the guy was in our house. Normally, he would not touch his food with someone other than my boyfriend and I around. I feel like he's finally becoming a happier dog.


I would love to know how you got Jonas to this point. What techniques have you used? I've done the greeting/hotdogs outdoors before they come inside, which helps. Anything else you can recommend?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> I would love to know how you got Jonas to this point. What techniques have you used? I've done the greeting/hotdogs outdoors before they come inside, which helps. Anything else you can recommend?


Loooong process that I was skeptical about at first! We got together twice a week with a group of people, and stood in a wide circle outside, Jonas and me in the middle. No one was to look at/touch/reach for him. Just stand still, and if he approached someone, drop a treat. Since he has such a low threshold for people coming near him, we wanted him to learn that if HE approaches people, something great will happen and nothing else. After a couple weeks of this, he stopped just grabbing the treat and running back to me. He'd actually approach someone, stare at them and wait. So we stepped it up to people calling him over and then dropping the treat. After a couple weeks of THAT he actually upped it for us by going up to a group member and jumping on her legs, so we allowed people to kneel down and actually hand him treats/pet him and he accepted. 

Then we started inviting people over, and when they walked through the door, like you said, they would immediately greet him and hand him a treat. Accepting people in his house was a bit harder, and while he would settle after the initial greeting, he would bark/growl at them if they walked around or sat too close to me/him. I just had to make sure when he did that to correct him by setting him on the floor and not reinforce his behavior like I was previously, by picking him up and cooing to him. 

He was so fearful we had to take these baby steps. He would get overwhelmed easily and urinated/flee/bite. Now he can walk passed people without showing any signs of fear.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

The circle greet/treat sounds like a great technique. Did you leave an opening in the circle, a visual "out?" Poca always wants to be on the perimeter of every situation. Putting her in the middle so that she would be surrounded may be too overwhelming for her to start. Maybe if I make it a wide, irregular circle so that she wouldn't see the obvious pattern. Definitely something to think about. Thanks!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

well...

its time to address the Bolo Beast's one fear issue...mind if I join you guys?

Bolo...fearless, two story window jumping "BRING IT ON!!!!" Bolo...is a ridiculous wuss when faced with...

dun dun DUNNN...water.




I would really like to be able to give her a bath without all the histrionics and frantic attempts to escape. 

I know EXACTLY why she is like this. stupid ex. 

so.

im thinking.

tonight we are going to start a training session in the hall, me sitting on the threshold of the bathroom with a cup of water and a bag of treats. everytime she gets a click, she will simultaneously get a treat dipped in water and a finger's flick of water drops on her chest. 

will let you know how things progress.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> The circle greet/treat sounds like a great technique. Did you leave an opening in the circle, a visual "out?" Poca always wants to be on the perimeter of every situation. Putting her in the middle so that she would be surrounded may be too overwhelming for her to start. Maybe if I make it a wide, irregular circle so that she wouldn't see the obvious pattern. Definitely something to think about. Thanks!!


It was VERY wide, and there were gaps between every one, but I was in the middle and I was his safety net. Usually if he feels uncomfortable, he'll run right for me. He also would let me know he was done or overwhelmed by staying at my side the first few times we did it.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

That makes sense. Definitely worth a shot!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

He's really coming around! He is a much happier dog, and you can tell by his body language. No more flattened ears or submissive peeing. In fact, he hasn't rolled over and peed in at least a month, maybe two, now. I've even caught him trotting around and smiling, which I had never seen in the passed year I've had him.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

That's amazing. What a transformation. Poca's progress is so slow, I wish I had kept a diary so that I could check her current state against it. Oh well. Congratulations on your progress. It must feel great!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

As long as Jonas is happy, I'm happy. We still have a way to go, and we're not sure how far he'll come, but as long as he isn't living his life absorbed in fear. Jack McCoy started out extremely fearful, abused, and almost feral. It literally took nothing more than meeting a few people to turn him around. You'd never know where he came from now. 

You can always start a diary with Poca now! It's never too late to log progress.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Walked him in the middle of the thunderstorm (yeah, I know, silly me!) but Wally couldn't care less. Sounds might be making less of an impact on him. It seems walking him during thunderstorms seems to have gotten him out of it - or maybe he's just "used to" the sound, or just grew out of it (do dogs "grow out of" fears?). I am seeing subtle changes in his behavior - not sure if it's the product of all the training, or the fact he's a "grown up dog" now (turned 2 a couple weeks ago)

When he hears a sound, he turns to look at it, well the direction of the sound I mean, but then he'll get his mind back on track. I usually just let him look until he's satisfied, or maybe say "good boy" while he's looking which seems to get him back on track too - must seem like the Look At That game to him. Maybe he thinks his "job" is to point out the sounds he hears.

I guess it's too much to ask, at least at this point, for him not to even care about the sound, although he WILL start to care less about it. It's just that first time he hears it. Probably just a natural reflex.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

God to here Wally isn't panicky over storme. Tiberius recently decided he needs to sit in my lap during thunderstorms...*sigh* 

Its wonderful to hear about all the progress everyone is making.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds like everyone is making some great progress these days! I know this process will have ups and downs...I feel like a couple weeks ago Brenna got over a big hurdle, but now we're having trouble moving on from there. I guess I just have to keep being patient and persistent with her. It's just hard because I don't like to put her in uncomfortable situations, so I tend to want to shelter her instead. But I know we won't get anywhere that way...it's hard for me to find a balance there. I'm especially concerned about a long trip we're taking this summer to visit some of DH's family. I know she'll be fine on the car ride, but I'm not sure how she'll respond to staying in someone else's home. We'll be there, and we'll take her crate, bed and bones, of course...hopefully she will be able to relax and enjoy it, not be stressed and nervous the whole time. 

Oh well, at least we had a nice, peaceful walk around our neighborhood today. It was early enough in the morning that noone was out working in their yards, so it was just me, Brenna and the road...just the way she likes it!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Cocoa, I know with Tiberius, having something familiar to him helped alot when he was at my mom's while I was on vacation. He has a blanket that has been his since he came to live with me, I made sure he had that when I dropped him off and he wasn't so anxious. Having her crate and bed will, hopefully, help ease her anxiety alot.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sorry I haven't been around in this thread, guys. Will be back later/tomorrow with my updates and to discuss our shy pooches.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi! Hope it's not too late for me to jump in!

We have a shy dog, Mayzie, that we adopted about 2 1/2 months ago. This has been such a learning process for us but so far, it has been completely worth it. I think one of the most important things I've learned since having a shy dog is learning to appreciate the little victories along the way, rather than expecting everything to turn around over night.

For instance, on Saturday we stopped by PetSmart for some things. She's been there several times but she's always given signs of being a little anxious. But Saturday, it was like she was the Queen Bee. She eagerly met a few other dogs and enjoyed some pets by one of the employees, who had also adopted a fearful dog a couple of years before. We told her Mayzie's story and she said, "Oh my gosh! I would never have known she came from that kind of background." I can't tell you how great that comment made me feel!

As we were waiting to check out, Mayzie walked up to a man standing in front of us and nosed his hand for a pet. He pet her and then she nosed his hand again. I just couldn't believe it! She likes people but she doesn't entirely trust them. Until recently, the people in her life have been very unpredictable. So I just couldn't believe she would have the confidence to ask a complete stranger for attention. I could've cried right then and there. That was just a huge step forward for her. I honestly felt like I was walking on a cloud the rest of the day.

Of course, we still have SUCH a long way to go. But it's the little (and sometimes big) victories that make it all worthwhile. 

Thanks so much for letting me join in and share!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

What you said about small victories is SO important with fearful dogs. Waiting for the big victory will result in disappointment as things can go back and forth very quickly between the good and not-so-good.  So glad you're making progress. If I remember correctly, Mayzie is the black Bully-type dog, right?

Not much going on with Marge, lately. Been walking on the boardwalk a couple of nights a week while heavily enforcing watch-me and leave-it. I've made the hard decision to not allow any leash greetings with Marge and I think it's going to be something that I practice for a VERY long time. Unpredictable dogs, I think, is what has contributed to some of her recent fear issues, so we're going to play 100% safe instead of sorry.

She was very social last Tuesday at Agility, and if not for her darn "drivey" fits (play drives and prey drives coming out) the class would really be a total heaven for her.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi Miss Mutt...

I think you're remembering Mayzie but she's brindle, not black (pic below). We think she's boxer/bulldog/pit/cattle dog/coyote...ha! She is such a sweet girl. We had some friends over last night and she did SO well. It's so easy to get lulled into complacency and take things like that as a sign that she's "cured" (for lack of a better word). 

Do you find that the setbacks are even harder to deal with emotionally after a string of really good days or weeks?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Do you find that the setbacks are even harder to deal with emotionally after a string of really good days or weeks?


Absolutely. Took the CGC with my dog on April 19, passed, only to have slight reactivity issues spring up a month later because of someone else's out of control dog. (She's still probably CGC material, but it hurts nonetheless) 

The best thing I can tell you is to try your hardest to take every day for what it is. As a fellow fearful dog owner told me, take her behaviors for what they are.. simply indications of how she's feeling at *that *given time.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I have a question that's be getting at me lately.

They always say dogs have a socialization "window" or period where "all" a dog's socialization takes place.

If that's true, why is it that...

a) we can socialize them to things they fear/have no exposure too

b) we have to continue socialization throughout life?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I have a question that's be getting at me lately.
> 
> They always say dogs have a socialization "window" or period where "all" a dog's socialization takes place.
> 
> ...


Oh, I wonder the same thing, especially with Jonas who spent his life in a crate with very little contact, and Jack, who was outdoors for nearly a year with NO human contact and bolted from us when we were trying to take him home. Jack is somewhere between 6 and 8, and Jonas is nearly 4, and Jack is pretty much a normal dog now, and Jonas is making great strides. I certainly missed the window with them, but I don't think it ever ends.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh wow.. GREAT day today.

Rally class was phenomenal. I was SO proud of Marge. She was back to her usual self at class.. loose, happy, curious.. I didn't want to push it but I let her say hello to three dogs: a GSD who she accidentally greeted last week, a Westie who she already knows a little bit, and an old Golden who she's met in the past. She did wonderfully. She did both courses really well, too. I'm happy she enjoys it.. I might decide in the next month or so whether I'll enter her into the Rally trial in August.

I needed one of these days from her.. made me feel really good.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jonas had a bad day/major set back completely not his fault on Saturday. We took a short walk down to get the mail, and a man came out of the house across the street and walked up on us while I was not paying attention. Jonas started barking defensively, and I turned and started to explain for him not to approach, he's a fearful rescue, and the man leans down and shouts "SHUT UP." in his face. He rolled and urinated, something that hasn't happened in months. I felt threatened myself, so I told him he had two seconds to get away from us or I was calling the police. Now he's been rolling onto his back when my boyfriend has approached. Also something that hasn't happened in months.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, that totally sucks!

I'd be beside myself - what a horrible way to lose progress  I'd be SO tempted to just let Wally go and "tell him off". 

People just don't understand fearful dogs, and that guy just doesn't understand dogs period. I mean, what if Jonas really was aggressive? That man would be missing a nose right now, I'd bet. 

I'm starting to think that "tv trainers" don't either.

Saw an episode of Me or the Dog and VS said she never saw a dog stand and hold on to her owner's leg. I was think, that's SO Wally. Even jumped down and sat right at her owner's feet, just like Wally. Something she says she's never seen is something I see every day (or used to). Just made me think.

I guess people, even trainers, aren't used to seeing dogs actually be scared or think they can bark out of fear as much as out of alertness or aggression.


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## Dixiebird (Jun 12, 2009)

Hi Ya'll. Minnie is my second fearful adoptee. In 2001 we adopted a full blood black lab named Molly. She was given to us with the story that she had a congenital eye defect but actually it was that her idiot first owner had traumatized her so badly by 6 months of age she was never going to be a duck hunter. She came to us terrified of men with sticks and loud motors. We had her for 2 years and everytime she heard a boat motor she would get out of the water and crouch on the bank quivering - or if it was a truck motor she would just hit the ground and quiver. We play pool a lot and she adored my husband so she grew out of the men with sticks fear. Unfortunately she had bone cancer and had to be euthanized before she got over her fear of loud motors.

Minnie is a completely different story. She is terrified of new people, loud noises, unexpected movement and vehicles. She HATES collars, water and bar-be-cue sauce and after 5 months is just now semi-trusting of my husband. When she came to us she was terrified of everything but our Golden Retriever and was sure that anything coming from overhead was meant to hurt her. She got over the overhead stuff pretty quickly when she realized that anything coming from us overhead was edible. She is slowly coming to trust my husband and she communicates very well with me when I pay attention. The best thing, I think, is that she is very happy in our fenced backyard and seems to view it as her safe zone. She doesn't even give the lawn mower a second thought when in the backyard. After last weekend, I have decided to let her win the collar disagreement as she isn't in danger of trying to play with strangers and there aren't that many people that she'll encounter on her runs - and they definitely won't catch her! Everything else is a slow uphill battle and occasionally I have to snuggle with her and tell her that no one is going to hurt her while she's with us (she really seems to understand this). She's very smart - even if a little hardheaded - and has already figured out that she has to sit before going through a gate or a door. She's my current little heartache & I wouldn't trade her for anything.

I'd also like to add that even tho the dog training experts recommend establishing yourself as the alpha dog even with a fearful dog, I don't really think that's always the right thing to do. My opinion is that in situations of abuse (as with Minnie and Molly and so many others) the dog already has the idea that humans are the alpha. Our job in training them is to help them realize that they are a welcome member of the pack and are under our protection. This takes time and a great deal of understanding but I think we've all seen that it works.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Unfortunately she had bone cancer and had to be euthanized before she got over her fear of loud motors.


So sorry to hear about your dear Molly. Sounds like you did a lot for her while she was with you.



> She HATES collars, water and bar-be-cue sauce and after 5 months is just now semi-trusting of my husband.


BBQ sauce? That's a new one. Though my dog has had some smell-related fears in the past.. namely, dead horseshoe crabs at the beach and her Dental Care Gel. Now she seems to think both are yummy.

The man thing isn't so new, though, and after 1 year, my dog still walks the other way when my dad is standing or walking. She likes him when he's eating and sleeping, though.



> She got over the overhead stuff pretty quickly when she realized that anything coming from us overhead was edible.


Ah, the magic of counterconditioning 



> After last weekend, I have decided to let her win the collar disagreement as she isn't in danger of trying to play with strangers and there aren't that many people that she'll encounter on her runs - and they definitely won't catch her!


Be careful with this - you know your dog better than I do, but you don't want her to hear a BOOM while she's offleash somewhere and run off. Unless you mean just in your backyard.. that's different. You could try slow desensitization to the collar.. click and treat her for looking at the collar, sniffing it, nudging it, etc. Then click and treat her for acting calmly when you pick the collar up, and continue slowly.



> I'd also like to add that even tho the dog training experts recommend establishing yourself as the alpha dog even with a fearful dog, I don't really think that's always the right thing to do. My opinion is that in situations of abuse (as with Minnie and Molly and so many others) the dog already has the idea that humans are the alpha. Our job in training them is to help them realize that they are a welcome member of the pack and are under our protection. This takes time and a great deal of understanding but I think we've all seen that it works.


I agree 100%. "Alpha" has no place in the training of a fearful dog. My dog is my partner, she lets me know how she feels and I try to make her feel better about things she's unsure of. To punish a fearful dog would be a sin. These dogs are already low confidence, getting caught up in the whole dominance/alpha thing is not conducive to their rehab, IMO.


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## Dixiebird (Jun 12, 2009)

Minnie runs off my property but she stays in the brush & woods and away from road. I make sure that if she's off running I'm at least outside so if there is a loud noise I can call her and she'll know where to find home. I know that "off running" thing sounds irresponsible but we're a LOOOONNNGGGG way away from leashes and since she comes back in a realtively short time (20 minutes or less) I think she's fine and when she gets done with her run she's my shadow. If we never get to the leash that's fine but right now we're taking very small steps and will see how it goes.

BTW - thanks for your input.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Wow, that totally sucks!
> 
> I'd be beside myself - what a horrible way to lose progress  I'd be SO tempted to just let Wally go and "tell him off".
> 
> ...


I feel like I have to be afraid of the whole world along with him. He can only get so far before someone does something senseless to ruin it. Even when I get a chance to say "He's fearful, please do not pet him or reach for him" people will do it anyway. Jonas WILL bite, especially when startled and clearly over his threshold, and quite frankly the only luck this man had was that he's a 11 lbs and I quickly scooped him and backed up. 

I just don't understand it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> *Saw an episode of Me or the Dog and VS said she never saw a dog stand and hold on to her owner's leg. I was think, that's SO Wally. Even jumped down and sat right at her owner's feet, just like Wally. Something she says she's never seen is something I see every day (or used to). Just made me think*.



Was that the JunieBee episode? I loved that one.. I think everyone involved with dogs even in the smallest of ways could learn something from that show. She handled that dog SO well.


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## lexilu (Jun 26, 2008)

Not sure if I should post this here, as it's not about progress - so forgive me. I've spent a long time reading this thread, and I'm so impressed with the hard work you have all put in to your furbabies, and how far they have come. And I was wondering if there is hope for us.

I've had Lexi (cockapoo) since she was 9 weeks old, and she's now just over 2 years old. Not abused, not a rescue, so I dont understand what happened. She started out as a brave and confident pup. I socialized her early with neighborhood kids and took her to pet stores and car rides and even on a plane when she was younger, and could fit in a carry-on. Well - this past year, she's become afraid of everything. It started out as a fear of the garbage truck. Now if the mailman delivers a package and I place it on the floor she's afraid of that. She's afraid of her food bowl, if her collar clangs on it. You name it - she's afraid. If there's something new in the house, or it's out of place she lets me know by barking non-stop at it. She loves our fenced in back yard, but has become fearful of going for walks on our street.

We also have a Golden (just fearful of thunderstorms). If he walks with us, Lexi is brave. Without him, she's afraid of everything. Here's the list of her current fears - anything with wheels- bikes, strollers, garbage cans, landscapers, anything loud, anything that moves, anything that is new and different. Anything bigger than her. She loves people - hesitantly approaches them, with her back legs stretched out behind her just in case she has to make a mad dash away (she's on a leash, and I'm always praising her efforts, but that's not enough). Oh did I mention she's afraid of Cody -our golden - he's such a big lug. She steals his food and toys, and won't play with him outside. He wants to run with her outside in the yard, but she lays on her back immediately. In the house, though she's a terror to him, and is actually nasty - stealing his toys, food and just giving him attitude. Being he's such a good natured boy - he takes it in stride.

So I thought I'd go for a walk this weekend with Lexi and I'd clicker and treat - but she was afraid of the clicker sound. So out we went with treats in hand - no clicker - but she was too uncomfortable to eat when I offered it, so I just told her what a good girl she was.

What did I screw up to make her so fearful? And what can I do (books, training etc) to help her confidence. 

Thank you - if I should start a different thread, let me know.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hi lexilu. I think you came to the right thread to post in, as all the people who I've spoken to through here know SO much when it comes to fearful dogs. Feel free to make your own thread, though, too, but regardless, you posted in the right place.



> What did I screw up to make her so fearful?


If you socialized her as you described, then there are a couple of things that I can think of that may have happened:

- One scary incident having a compound effect on her temperament/behaviors. Can you recall anything that REALLY freaked her out right when her fearful behaviors were starting, or even some time BEFORE they started? Dogs can experience a post-traumatic thing, and behaviors can pop up a long time after they see the scary thing.

- Genetics. Where did you get her? I don't want to make any assumptions, but if her parents had issues, she could have as well.

- Failure to keep up socialization. Has she seen and experiences less things this past year than she did in her puppyhood?

I think you need to check out the Fearful Dogs websites:

www.fearfuldogs.com
www.fearfuldogs.wordpress.com
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/shy-k9s


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lexilu said:


> I've had Lexi (cockapoo) since she was 9 weeks old, and she's now just over 2 years old. Not abused, not a rescue, so I dont understand what happened. She started out as a brave and confident pup. I socialized her early with neighborhood kids and took her to pet stores and car rides and even on a plane when she was younger, and could fit in a carry-on. Well - this past year, she's become afraid of everything. It started out as a fear of the garbage truck. Now if the mailman delivers a package and I place it on the floor she's afraid of that. She's afraid of her food bowl, if her collar clangs on it. You name it - she's afraid. If there's something new in the house, or it's out of place she lets me know by barking non-stop at it. She loves our fenced in back yard, but has become fearful of going for walks on our street.


Good grief that sounds like "old" Wally. Everything from something "out of place" or something like a box on the floor or if something he's not sure of makes a sound - brought back a lot of memories. Heck, he'll still do it sometimes if the object is big or shaped a certain way.

What really helped Wally was teaching the "touch" command where he touches something with his nose. 

Now, whenever I see him do that "I ain't going near that!" where he curves around something and speeds up his gait, I take him back to it and make him touch it.

Often times, I do this a few times and he'll start to sniff the object (his nose is right there so I guess he figures he might as well sniff or something), which of course I praise and encourage.

There's lots of things that can be done and have been done, but nose-touching requires that he go up to an object and put a part of his body on it, and a sensitive part at that.

Make sure the nose actually touches the object. Wally sometimes tries to get sneaky and "phantom touch" the object.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Oh wow.. GREAT day today.


That's awesome! It's such a boost to have a good day.



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Jonas started barking defensively, and I turned and started to explain for him not to approach, he's a fearful rescue, and the man leans down and shouts "SHUT UP." in his face. He rolled and urinated, something that hasn't happened in months.


OMG - I'm so sorry you ran into that jerk. What a total ___hole! Wonder if the jerk would have been so brave with a 70-100 lb dog. People do seem more abusive to smaller dogs, IMO. I hope Jonas recovers soon from this.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Was that the JunieBee episode? I loved that one.. I think everyone involved with dogs even in the smallest of ways could learn something from that show. She handled that dog SO well.



Yep, that's the one. Adorable little dog 

That was a good episode. The owners were great and she came up with some excellent ideas 

Was so good to see her go from fearful of the dad in the house to sitting in his lap at the end. That was great to see. It was like both humans and the two "sets" of dogs became all one big family.



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I feel like I have to be afraid of the whole world along with him. He can only get so far before someone does something senseless to ruin it. Even when I get a chance to say "He's fearful, please do not pet him or reach for him" people will do it anyway. Jonas WILL bite, especially when startled and clearly over his threshold, and quite frankly the only luck this man had was that he's a 11 lbs and I quickly scooped him and backed up.
> 
> I just don't understand it.


Yeah, I never understand why people just disregard an owner's wishes. I mean, it just seems like simple respect. Such angry people, I'll never understand. Seems like the kind of person that would get mad because a baby cries or because kids want things. Just over-the-top hostility.

I'm fortunate in the fact I've not run into many people like that. Just that one guy who said he'd kick Wally if he bit him, which was just as stupid because Wally was _sniffing_ the air just to take his scent. 

Hopefully, Jonas will be able to shake it off over time and remember the good things he's learned. Try not to be too wary, even though it's natural in general with fearful dogs (because we want to head off things before they trigger the fear), but especially after an event like what you went through.



MissMutt said:


> I agree 100%. "Alpha" has no place in the training of a fearful dog. My dog is my partner, she lets me know how she feels and I try to make her feel better about things she's unsure of. To punish a fearful dog would be a sin. These dogs are already low confidence, getting caught up in the whole dominance/alpha thing is not conducive to their rehab, IMO.


Agreed - the only leadership I like to do is resource control, which goes more towards Premack (or NILIF), more of a "negotiation" than "do it, or else..." sort of training.

I had to laugh about the overhead thing. Wally got counter-conditioned to ziploc bags (and bags in general) because sometimes food and good smells came out of them. 

It's how he got over the microwave and the oven and the refrigerator as well.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> OMG - I'm so sorry you ran into that jerk. What a total ___hole! Wonder if the jerk would have been so brave with a 70-100 lb dog. People do seem more abusive to smaller dogs, IMO. I hope Jonas recovers soon from this.


 Thank you. I took Jonas to his favorite quiet family owned pet store to make up for it, and the only other person he responds to positively other my boyfriend and I is the woman who owns it. He perked up, loved on her, and socialized with some other dogs, which is generally not something he does either. We saw this guy today while working on the yard with Jack supervising  and all he had to say was "that's the one that'll tear you up. He's the guard dog." Apparently we're in the vicinity of crazies.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Yeah, I never understand why people just disregard an owner's wishes. I mean, it just seems like simple respect. Such angry people, I'll never understand. Seems like the kind of person that would get mad because a baby cries or because kids want things. Just over-the-top hostility.
> 
> I'm fortunate in the fact I've not run into many people like that. Just that one guy who said he'd kick Wally if he bit him, which was just as stupid because Wally was _sniffing_ the air just to take his scent.
> 
> Hopefully, Jonas will be able to shake it off over time and remember the good things he's learned. Try not to be too wary, even though it's natural in general with fearful dogs (because we want to head off things before they trigger the fear), but especially after an event like what you went through.


I get the over whelming desire to pet a dog and get excited when you see a real cutie like Jonas  but randomly being mean to something so harmless, especially 11 lbs of harmless in our situation. 

Why would someone kick Wally? He's just a fuzzy little man! 

As I posted above, he turned around at his favorite shop. And this afternoon we went to visit the parents and my boyfriend's father was sitting on the deck, and Jonas actually approached him and jumped up on his legs, begging to be picked up AND happily danced on his lap when he picked him up. It lasted only a minute, but I could not believe it. He's showing me that he's a tough little guy and is learning that maybe not every guy is so bad.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> As I posted above, he turned around at his favorite shop. And this afternoon we went to visit the parents and my boyfriend's father was sitting on the deck, and Jonas actually approached him and jumped up on his legs, begging to be picked up AND happily danced on his lap when he picked him up. It lasted only a minute, but I could not believe it. He's showing me that he's a tough little guy and is learning that maybe not every guy is so bad.


Good!

That's wonderful! He is learning and that one event just rolled off his back. 

I'm SO glad dogs suck at generalizing. I think a lot of times, that's our one trump card. Yes, it gets in the way sometimes when we want them to hurry up and learn that those good things, but when stuff like what Jonas went through happens - I'm grateful for their moment-by-moment view on life.

Yeah, with Wally I seem like I'm in a no win situation with a lot of the adults (the kids just see OMG LOOK AT THAT CUTE LITTLE WHITE DOG!!11!!!1, especially the girls). If he's off leash, they look at him (and me) suspiciously. If he's on leash, they look at him suspiciously. It's like off leash "what's he gonna do to me" and on leash "I wonder what he would do to me if he wasn't on that leash"


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Good!
> 
> That's wonderful! He is learning and that one event just rolled off his back.
> 
> ...


Amen! Jonas runs into tough situations all the time, and I keep thinking we're going to completely lose every thing we've worked for, and a day or so later it's like nothing happened. 

Jonas has one huge thing working against him: He's so darn cute. I may be biased, but judging from the reactions he gets, he's one of the cutest doxie's I've ever seen. People just want to touch him. Combined with the fact people are often rude/don't ask/don't handle dogs appropriately in the first place public outings have to be planned carefully and not around a lot of people otherwise he'll either shut down completely, or get snarly.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Honestly, this is why I thank the heavens that Marge is just a plain old black Lab mix. Some people are probably afraid of her because they think she's a Pit Bull or Doberman mix. For her sake, it's better. 

I've had some real winners come up to her, though. The worst was a moron at the beach who was either drunk, high, or otherwise impaired in some way and wouldn't go away. He was offering training advice, because ya know, HE had a Lab too, and HIS dog was "well trained" and didn't need treats. My boyfriend and I got up and left.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I'm SO glad dogs suck at generalizing. I think a lot of times, that's our one trump card. Yes, it gets in the way sometimes when we want them to hurry up and learn that those good things, but when stuff like what Jonas went through happens - I'm grateful for their moment-by-moment view on life.


This is so interesting. I've never thought about it that way but you're right! I'm going to remember that the next time we go through something that scares Mayzie. 

As for dogs being cute and people wanting to pet them...our dog, Ranger, is a rat terrier, cute and small. Before we got Mayzie, EVERYONE wanted to pet him. He's okay with it but he's just not "into" people, if that makes sense. So he doesn't really enjoy it like some dogs and doesn't actively seek attention.

When we got Mayzie, who actually likes people even if she's a little wary of them, I was afraid no one would want to interact with her. She's about 40 pounds and a bully-type dog. But the weirdest thing has happened. On so many occasions, people want to pet HER and ignore Ranger. Ironically, this has made Ranger want to get in on the action. I can't tell you how many times people have been petting Mayzie and then Ranger walks up, and they say something like, "Oh yes...I'll pet you too!" It's so funny to me that people ignore the cute little dog to pet the bigger, "scarier-looking" dog.

On a separate note, we had a little step forward yesterday. We have a propane grill and there's an ignition button that's fairly loud. It scares Mayzie to death and she'll go and hide in her crate. In the past, we've actually had to put her on a leash to get her back into the backyard to pee and she's skittish of it for a day or more. Well, yesterday she went into her crate as usual, but as soon as we started eating on the patio, she came trotting right out like it was no big deal. She still kept her eye on the grill but she was quite relaxed and played fetch with us after dinner. Again, it's learning to celebrate the little things that make all this worthwhile!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Congrats for Mayzie! 

I almost want to laugh when Wally does something like that (the eyeballing whatever). It even funnier looking when the thing isn't even there anymore. He's looking at this empty space. Funny how their memory works sometimes.

There's this pothos plant that's got a vine dangle over the table to the floor. Wally eyeballs the thing everytime he goes past it. Or when something makes a sound that he doesn't like - he'll be looking at it for a while. Once I accidentally kicked a chair and if course it made a loud sound. He stared at it and when he walked, he curved and looked at it the whole time. Fortunately after about a couple minutes, he was back to being "okay" with it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Congrats for Mayzie  Marge is terrified of the smoke alarm. The oven is due for a self-cleaning, so it's been heating up and the smoke alarm's gone off.. thankfully since it's hot we've opted to barbecue lately, so she hasn't had anything to be afraid of.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Well, I had a rough time with Cheyenne the last few days..But it is getting better slowly.

I had him to where he would come to me with not much problem..still apprehensive but nothing like it was. A few days ago we were all in the yard playing and having a great time. I called them all up to get fed and relax a bit on the front porch. Cheyenne being the gentlemen he is waits till everyone is up then he comes up. I was standing at the door waiting and calling him with a treat (they all get threat when crossing the threshold) he comes up the stairs and ZAP! right out from under the stair tread a Wasp nest had formed and one zapped him on the nose 2 stairs down away from me.. He yelped and went down running.. ran to backyard to my shop and wouldnt come within 30 feet of me. All night i tried to coax him in, all day the next day.. and then on into the evening. By that time he was starving and He finally army crawled to me, I can tell he wasnt wanting to..but the delicious pork loin won. I finally got him on the porch again and he is becomeing more at ease. Sad thing is..he looks at me as if I did that to him still.. Just like he was when he first found us. Well.. Of to give extra loving, Extra attention, and an Extra mile walk on the beach.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Oh boy, digits mama, I think we can all relate to an incident like that! When we first got Mayzie, my hubby took her for a walk on a retractable leash. Well, you can guess what happened. Not only was the leash chasing her, my husband and Ranger were, too. He was calling for her but she didn't even know her name at that point. All she knew is that something was after her and my husband was yelling. It must have been quite a sight!

My hubby honestly thought she would never get over it and trust him. But she did and now they're best buds. It took her about a month to really enjoy going back to the area where he walks the dogs but I just got an email from him saying that Mayzie is about to bounce off the walls because she is so ready for her walk.

Thank goodness they are so resilient! I know your Cheyenne will bounce back soon!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Heh that leash chasing thing happened with Wally once and ever since I made it a point to teach him that leash not in my hand means DON'T YOU FREAKING MOVE."

Sometimes, I think Wally's more scared of what I'll do to him if he runs away from me to even think of running away. 

Fine with me. If it keeps him from bolting, he can think what he wants. In the meantime, he's being rewarded for sticking around, so who knows. I can't figure it out half the time, but I just try to work with what I get.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I could use some advice. 

Cupid had a pretty strong reaction earlier this week to another dog--an APBT puppy. Here's what happened. My friend and I went to check out a chihuahua that was being rehomed. This family also had a pit bull puppy, and Cupid was sitting on my lap when he caught sight of the pup. I saw the hair literally rise on the back of his neck. Much barking and growling ensued, and he'd do the same later nearly every time he noticed the dog.

He did something similar another time, when he was startled by a dog when I went to pick up Clayton.

So now I'm trying to figure out what caused the issue. Both dogs were bigger than he is. Did he growl because he was startled? If so, why did he continue to growl at the puppy after he (presumably) knew she was there? Do I need to try and desensitize him to bigger dogs? Handle introductions better?

How would you start to identify the core issue and address it?


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Was the puppy acting like, well, a puppy?

My own (non-fearful) male dog is fairly intolerant of puppy squirrelly-ness. And many adult dogs are after pups reach about 12 weeks of age. This isn't aggression, as long as they're not actually attacking the puppy and bringing blood. It's simply an adult dog teaching a youngster how to behave themselves.

Or, like you said, it could be because he was startled. Controlling introductions could help. And just in general, you might try counter-conditioning around other dogs. Hey! There's a bigger dog than you! Have a cookie! Hey! There's a puppy acting like a fool! Have a cookie! Good things happen in the presence of other dogs.

And remember...just like people don't like every person they meet...not all dogs like every dog they meet. And there's truly nothing wrong with that, IMO.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Is he fearful of other dogs in the first place? If so, he could now simply be showing his fear in a different way.

Could have also been resource guarding your lap from the Pit puppy.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

ColoradoSooner, the puppy was acting surprisingly unpuppylike. She was pretty well behaved, in fact. I do like the idea of offering treats to help him make a positive association. 

To be honest, I was a little stressed when I saw the other dog because I was worried about how he would react. I'm sure he picked up on that.

MissMutt, I would probably say he's fearful of other dogs, but his response really varies. That's why his positive body language (tail up) and interest was so encouraging when he met Clayton. He is reactive on leash. When we went to a six-week dog-training class, he pretty much kept his tail down. It's making me a little sad to remember it, although he improved a bit over time. I did learn a few things like "touch" and "watch me" that I use to get him to focus on me.

He has been to doggy daycare (they also do boarding) a few times. Each time I was told he kept to himself for the first day, and would play a little with other dogs by the end of the boarding. He is good with dogs once he is familiar with them.

I'm not sure if he was resource guarding. I actually brought him to my lap because he growled a little to begin with, but I don't think it made the situation any better. The weird thing was there were times when he could look at the puppy and have no response. I praised him highly for that. But then he would go back to growling. 

I wish it could have been recorded. Watching it play out would be very enlightening. It's certainly reinforced that I need to be more aware of what's going on in the room. He could have been resource guarding me, he could have been trying to protect Clayton (who loves people and dogs and was trying to interact with the pup), he could have been guarding Clayton, he might have just not liked the dog . . . I'm just not sure.

I appreciate the input, though, and would welcome more comments.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah.. that's really what it comes down to. The first time Marge went beserk towards another dog, I didn't really know what to think of it. As time went on, things clicked, and I started to understand what her reactions were AND how they aren't all necessarily from the same thing.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Thracian said:


> So now I'm trying to figure out what caused the issue. Both dogs were bigger than he is. Did he growl because he was startled?


Probably.



Thracian said:


> If so, why did he continue to growl at the puppy after he (presumably) knew she was there?


Maybe he wanted nothing to do with this dog right now. After all, he probably startled him and maybe that put him in a bad mood. Kinda like how someone who hates practical jokes is the victim of one. They aren't laughing and often want to be left alone, etc.



Thracian said:


> Do I need to try and desensitize him to bigger dogs? Handle introductions better?


If you can, go ahead, but introductions are important. Many times, I don't get to control the introduction because its the other dog being "rude" (running up face to face, Wally's signal being ignored, usually a sit, and the other dog trying to sniff "under the sit", etc) and Wally has to do what ColoardoSooner described, telling the other dog "Where's your manners?"

For Wally, this is often face-to-face meetings (usually considered rude among two dogs that don't know each other). Case in point, when we were walking this evening, we met another dog being walked. The other dog used calming signals, and Wally did a nose lick and a yawn, and his owner walked in a curve around us and Wally and I did the same. The result? They both wanted to sniff each other (they didn't though, since the other owners were talking and walking in the opposite direction, Wally though was pulling TOWARDS the other dog, trying to sniff his rear from a distance).

That would be considered a polite interaction if they could have met.




Thracian said:


> How would you start to identify the core issue and address it?


I would continue any conditioning you're doing to teach him that dogs are good things. Also, when your dog and another are interacting, watch how they are communicating - you can see if the other dog is doing something yours doesn't appreciate or if it's yours having confidence/fearful issues.

Also, if it doesn't wind him up too much, you can give soft verbal praise or even click him if you're using a clicker.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

digits mama said:


> I was standing at the door waiting and calling him with a treat (they all get threat when crossing the threshold) he comes up the stairs and ZAP! right out from under the stair tread a Wasp nest had formed and one zapped him on the nose 2 stairs down away from me.. He yelped and went down running.. ran to backyard to my shop and wouldnt come within 30 feet of me....Sad thing is..he looks at me as if I did that to him still..


This story breaks my heart. It's the perfect storm example of exactly what you _don't_ want happening with a fearful dog. Pork loin = good thinking! Is he still acting fearfully?

On another topic: A short WOOT! WOOT! for Poca....We had a power outage this morning and I called my dad to come over and look at our electrical box. Poca has always liked my dad but she is still wary of him, esp. when he's standing (he's 6'3", talks loudly, has a large presence). I've never been able to get him to cooperate with our don't look at her, don't talk to her, don't approach her protocol, so it's taking longer than it needed to for her to warm up to him. She actually bit him (no damage) last fall when he loomed over her in a tight space, so it's been a little dicey between the two of them. But she's been coming around and he will do some of the things I ask, like giving her yummy treats.

So fast forward to this morning. He rings the door bell, Poca goes on alert and...as soon as he comes in the door and she realizes he's one of her people, she's booing and acting all excited to see him. Later, he sits down on the couch and she goes over to him and buries her head in his lap, licks him, and keeps talking to him. Not an ounce of hesitation in her the whole time he's here!!!!! HA! I'm so pleased with her I could bust. Extra peanut butter for the girl today!! Any maybe for Poca, too - LOL!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That is awesome, winnie  Out of all the progress one can make, progress with a scary family member is probably one of the sweetest kinds.

We actually had some progress, too.. Marge went up to my dad while he was on the couch last night and started licking his face/swatting at him playfully and he petted her a little bit. Then, she said to herself, "OMG, WTF did I just do? " and started barking, but I think it was more overexcitement than anything. I handed him her squeaky bunny and he threw it for her a few times, and all was well.

Of course, today he had to ask her to "Bang" (play dead) and she refused to comply, answering him with barks and grunts, but whatever, that's nothing new..


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LOL to scary dads. My dad is 6'5'', deep voice, and a large hockey player. Jonas is NOT a fan. Every time we went by with the dogs he'd just bark and stay far away from him. My dad would always joke "I love your dogs. Just not that little one." until our last few visits, where Jonas has approached him for a pet and taken treats from him. We're winning in the "Men AREN'T so scary" battle.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

*sigh*

We met a sweet Newfoundland (one of the few times I've actually seen one in person) and she was really friendly.

But Wally wanted nothing to do with her. I got him to sit, but he wasn't very keen on her getting closer and he didn't want to get close to her.

I guess he was scared of her size?


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MM & TWAB - maybe we should start a scary dad/fearful dog club. Wonder how many takers we'd have??  Actually, my brother and his son fall into the same category - apple doesn't fall far from the tree. But it sounds like all of our pups are making progress. On the way home from a party this evening, Poca gave my dad a face washing every few minutes. Oh yeah.

KB - Is Wally like that with all big dogs? I don't remember you mentioning it. Honestly, the more I watch dogs interact, the more I realize I just don't get them. I'm not too bad at reading dog-human signals, but dog-dog stuff is so subtle at times, it escapes me. Poca, the most dog-friendly dog I've ever seen -- met up with this sweet 1-year old flat-coat on a walk at the park. They met, sniffed, wagged, & wandered a little while the humans chatted. At two points during a 10 minute time frame they simultaneously reared up and snarled at each other like they were starting something. Huh??? One of them was throwing a signal the other didn't like but I'll be darned if I could see it.

Maybe the Newfoundland was doing something in particular Wally didn't like? Coming at him head on? Coming too close? Acting too interested?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

winniec777 said:


> MM & TWAB - maybe we should start a scary dad/fearful dog club. Wonder how many takers we'd have??  Actually, my brother and his son fall into the same category - apple doesn't fall far from the tree. But it sounds like all of our pups are making progress. On the way home from a party this evening, Poca gave my dad a face washing every few minutes. Oh yeah.


I'm not a father, but Wally used to fear me. Heck, I have some kind of "effect" on dogs. Maybe I just have "the look" or something - or maybe it's the lack of any fear. Even when those dogs were trying to get Wally sometime back, I just stared at the dog, and she eventually went running. It's kinda freaky...

I went to pick up a pup that was getting away from his family, didn't look at him, didn't just swoop in and snatch him, but he STILL rolled over. I'm thinking, geez, pup, I ain't gonna eat you LOL



winniec777 said:


> KB - Is Wally like that with all big dogs? I don't remember you mentioning it. Honestly, the more I watch dogs interact, the more I realize I just don't get them. I'm not too bad at reading dog-human signals, but dog-dog stuff is so subtle at times, it escapes me. Poca, the most dog-friendly dog I've ever seen -- met up with this sweet 1-year old flat-coat on a walk at the park. They met, sniffed, wagged, & wandered a little while the humans chatted. At two points during a 10 minute time frame they simultaneously reared up and snarled at each other like they were starting something. Huh??? One of them was throwing a signal the other didn't like but I'll be darned if I could see it.
> 
> Maybe the Newfoundland was doing something in particular Wally didn't like? Coming at him head on? Coming too close? Acting too interested?



Hard to say since it's not often we meet a dog THAT big. The only other dog that big we've met was a Great Dane and he wasn't terribly keen on him either (then again, that was months ago). Other than that, it's mostly "normal" sized dogs and smaller dogs about his size.

They did meet head on and she probably made a move forward that Wally didn't like. He sorta growled (it was a high-ish pitch growl, though) and he started barking (again more high pitched) so thinking on it I don't know if he was trying to start a game or what. The newfie didn't look all that put off so maybe it wasn't what I thought.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

How's everyone doing?

We had a good class yesterday at Rally. Only two other dogs. Marge wasn't in the mood to train and we fudged a couple of courses, but she was in a good mood otherwise. I'll ALWAYS take good behavior and comfort over training, so the class wasn't a loss.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> MM & TWAB - maybe we should start a scary dad/fearful dog club. Wonder how many takers we'd have??  Actually, my brother and his son fall into the same category - apple doesn't fall far from the tree. But it sounds like all of our pups are making progress. On the way home from a party this evening, Poca gave my dad a face washing every few minutes. Oh yeah.


LOL. Jonas is especially fearful of men, and big giant guys like my dad are NOT his cup of tea. We've had some good meetings, though. We went over for Father's day and Jonas did not bark at him once. Even quietly sat on the couch by him and let him pet him. He only looked uncomfortable once, but only because my dad was messing with his scruff (he's got a lot of it) but instead of losing it, he got up and moved to me. I let my dad know he's sensitive about his neck/face being messed with, and Jonas went back to him later with no problem. 

No new progress. Unless you count today as a set back. A friend of mine came over, whom he's met before, but he just wouldn't stop barking at her. He did run and jump right practically in her lap on the couch, but the minute she moved he went nuts. I had to take him out of the room for a bit before he'd stop.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I'll ALWAYS take good behavior and comfort over training, so the class wasn't a loss.


I couldn't agree with this more. I'm not exactly sure how much Mayzie learned in our obedience class. But she was able to relax there and she LOVED going. That right there was worth it.

Kind of a sweet thing happened with Mayzie last night. We had a storm move through. She's actually not terribly concerned with storms unless they're really loud and it was REALLY loud last night. Her crate is her safe place and after one particularly large clap of thunder...up the stairs she headed to her crate. About a minute later, here she came back down the stairs, jumped up on the couch and cuddled up next to me. And there she stayed for the duration of the storm.

It made me feel like she's starting to really trust us and that WE are becoming her safe place. It was a great feeling.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Kind of jumping in late, but I was reading through a lot of the posts here and so many things reminded me of various stages of Kim's growing up, and her fear issues. I tend to think of Kim's issues as primarily environmental (rather than genetic) due to her formative weeks being spent in rather...um..."less than ideal" circumstances, but perhaps exasperated by that innate "observant/suspicious" herding mindset. The reason being because I think if her issues were primarily hardwired she would not have made the level of progress she has. Of course, that makes me wish that much more that she could have had a better start to life...who knows how things would have gone.

But -- and this may sound crazy -- in a way I'm grateful for all of our struggles. I mean think about it: if our dogs weren't so fearful, especially for those of us who have a fearful _first _dog, would we ever have learned all we have? 

If you had asked me two years ago the difference between operant and classical conditioning...methods of desensitization...how to interpret minute changes in facial expression and body language *and* respond appropriately...how the Premack principle is one of the most powerful training tools...I would have been at a complete loss. Kim forced me to learn, and in learning, to appreciate her more for who she is both despite the fear issues, and in the context of them.

She's still reactive on lead (which is under control but even a short lapse in working on it results in a huge setback)...she still can't be on the same end of the house as someone folding laundry...learning the teeter in agility has become a task of epic proportions...still hides when I get out my aquarium cleaning buckets and hose...and more...

But on our walk on Friday a garbage truck drove by and she just looked at me and kept walking (even hearing one in a distance would set her off into full-fledged panic as a pup)...earlier today she wriggled herself upside down between my legs as I say on the floor (confined space/entrapment) in hopes of a bellyrub, and a little over a week ago an ambulance with sirens blaring flew by us about 15' away, and while she became more and more tense as it approached, she saw that I was not concerned, relaxed, plunked her rear to the grass, and howled at the sky with the siren...and looked immensely pleased with herself when I cracked up laughing.

One step at a time (sometimes forward, sometimes back)...trusting each other...we'll keeping moving along


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> But -- and this may sound crazy -- in a way I'm grateful for all of our struggles. I mean think about it: if our dogs weren't so fearful, especially for those of us who have a fearful first dog, would we ever have learned all we have?


I hear ya.. I hate to think this far in advance, but next time around shouldn't be so bad, no matter what kind of dog is thrown my way.

I don't think Marge's issues are primarly hardwired, either. The genetically fearful dogs are usually the ones that it takes YEARS to progress with. That's not to say a dog who is fearful due to a bad environment is going to be a quick and easy train, but I see a marked difference between the two.

She really hates one of my neighbors. Ever since my other neighbor's dog barked at him from behind his fence when Marge was there, too, she hates this guy. And I, stupidly, keep getting caught running into him whenever I don't have any treats on hand. I KNOW she'll take a treat from him.. but if I have no treats to hand to him that kind of presents a problem. lol.

She saw him today and got nutty, but was able to go up to him and sniff from behind and then lick something on his pants. She's weird. *smacks self for not carrying treats* 

I think I'm going to go to Petsmart tomorrow in the morning hours. I've pretty much kept Marge away from everything other than parks and training classes lately, and I think it's about time to start working our way back up. In some ways, I feel like it's the CGC all over..

*Shaina, how does Kim do at her training classes? Does she react towards other dogs when they're running a course, or do you go by yourself and not with a group?*


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Shaina said:


> But -- and this may sound crazy -- in a way I'm grateful for all of our struggles. I mean think about it: if our dogs weren't so fearful, especially for those of us who have a fearful _first _dog, would we ever have learned all we have?


Have to agree with this, too. If we hadn't been dealing with Poca's issues, I never would have learned as much as I have about working with dogs in general, not just the fearful ones. I still have lots to learn and it's frustrating at times, but I'm grateful for the almost daily lessons. I always tell Poca that she's our little guinea pig and that our next dog will have her to thank for a lot. 

Short brag for today....My brother is in town this weekend visiting. I asked him to ignore Poca, which he did. Gave him cheese to feed to her, which she took directly from his hand with no hesitation. Also had him doing touches and simple obedience, e.g. telling her to leave a piece of cheese laying on his leg. In pretty short time she was licking his legs trying to charm more cheese out of him. Fear: 0. Hungry dog/proud mom: Score!!


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> I hear ya.. I hate to think this far in advance, but next time around shouldn't be so bad, no matter what kind of dog is thrown my way.


*points at Webster*
Couldn't agree more lol




MissMutt said:


> Shaina, how does Kim do at her training classes? Does she react towards other dogs when they're running a course, or do you go by yourself and not with a group?


We go by ourselves sometimes, but our classes (when we are in session) are in a group of 8-10 dogs. We also are in an agility sport group that has 6-15 dogs, and a little group of friends and I get together about once a week, and that's about 5 dogs.

Reactivity...if I stay on her, not too much. She is an old pro at the "look at that!" game now, and I am able to keep her centered using that and doing our goofy little parlor tricks while other dogs are going. And her agility arena reactivity is over stimulation rather than fear response.

There are a couple dogs, however, that will still make her jump threshold if I am not 100% focused on keeping her focused (biggest culprits...her "BF" Malinois, and this little female Sheltie/Eskie mix). Fast dogs going over the A-frame and through tunnels seems to be the worst. Funnily enough, I can leave her in a crate while I run Webster and she has no problem with that. 

With all the work we've done, though, she now shows just passing interest in most dogs running the course and is primarily concerned with watching me to see when it's our turn. There was a point where ANY dog running the course would set her off; once she jumped threshold there was no getting her back except to remove her from the room -- which I had to do twice before I learned how to head it off and keep her steady. 

Kind of a long response but hopefully it answers your question.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Shaina said:


> But -- and this may sound crazy -- in a way I'm grateful for all of our struggles. I mean think about it: if our dogs weren't so fearful, especially for those of us who have a fearful _first _dog, would we ever have learned all we have?


Nope - and I'm still learning stuff. 

I do wonder, though, if I'm ever in the care of a "normal" dog, would I know what to do?  

That dog would probably be like "Geez, it's just a box, why are we just sitting here and not going over there to investigate it!" 

Question time:

Wally ran from a girl when she wanted to go pet him. I went and got him and put him on ground and let the girl pet him.

Wally didn't seem afraid at all. He was sniffing the girl while she pet him and didn't care that she was messing with his tags (trying to read his name) and being all up and close with him.

So, my questions:

1) Why did Wally not be afraid when placed by the girl and being "forced" to interact with her (and being near her bike, which was a different object)?

2) If he wasn't afraid during the interaction, why did he run in the first place? It looked like he was not the least bit afraid. No calming signals, no signs of stress or backing away. He was as curious about the girl as the girl was about him. Ears were perked, body was relaxed and his nose was going a mile a minute.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Ugh. My boyfriend's dad turned Jonas' world upside down again. Well, he's fine, but this sort of stuff is ridiculous. I knew I shouldn't have let him come over. Despite being warned each time he comes (which is just about never anymore until he can respect our dog rules) he walks right up to Jonas, gets down in his face, and starts rubbing his head/neck (and too roughly, in my opinion) even though Jonas is just going nuts. I picked him up and said "he does NOT like people in his face, and he does NOT like to be pet so hard." (I was curt, because we've discussed this before) and we spent the afternoon outside until he left.

How do you have to be so dense that you will stick your face within two inches of a snarling dogs face? Let alone put your hands all over him while he's snarling and has his hackles up. And when you KNOW the dog already and that he HAS bitten people in the face.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover Wally may have ran just because that's what he's used to doing.. so that it's less out of fear and more out of habit. Why he didn't move away again, I don't know. You say he wasn't giving any visible signs of stress, but maybe he was just taken by surprise and got kinda frozen in place? Not really sure on that one. 

It kind of reminds me of one dog I knew in Beginner 1. The dog literally had a perimeter around it that it would snarl/growl at people. Once you got inside the perimeter, the dog was all hugs and kisses. Maybe he just had a fear of the initial meeting of people?

BTW thank you Shaina for responding, you did answer my question.  I've just been too busy to reply lol


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't know but a similar scenario almost happened yesterday. Some kids saw him (he's a kid magnet...) and were coming over towards him. He looked like he was about to run, but I told him to sit this time.

Sure enough, he stayed right there even when the four of them crowded around him and started petting him and trying to make him eat flowers 

When I gave them some of his treats to give him, he ate them right off their hands. Just sniffing them, licked one girls foot. Sniffed another kids hair (I was thinking please don't lick his hair...he has a hair...thing). 

So maybe it is the habit thing. I did read about that in a book I think it was Help for the Fearful Dog or something like that (I'll have to get it), where it talked about fear response being a habit almost like muscle memory instead of being true fear. I"m going to have to crack back down on his sitting in response. I'd rather him sit as a habit than run for obvious reasons.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I agree all fearful dogs sometimes need that extra push. I did that with Marge, teaching her to stand in place despite her fear during the handling parts of the CGC. She tolerated it, but obviously didn't enjoy it, even if she was sniffing and such. Just make sure not to push _too_ far so as to set back your progress. I had a whole discussion about this once with Debbie from Fearfuldogs.com.

http://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/2009/04/25/a-sigh-of-relief/#comments

I could be way off though, and maybe already Wally feels comfortable enough with these kids that he IS happy about the pets. Only you know that.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Just read that link - very interesting.

At some point, though, I just draw the line between worrying about Wally loving everything about life, and just tolerating it, if for no other reason than because I said so. I know that's not in line with a lot of thoughts, but once you have that trust factor, it's the next step in my mind, then once you have them just tolerating the situation, you can work on getting them to love it (or just more likely to tolerate it).

I'd love it if he really does enjoy the kids. But tolerating is a practical reality goal that will keep him (and the kids) safe and at least make him stay in the situation to read it (if he doesn't like it, it's more likely something the kids did like when one of the girls tried to hug him for the first time). Of course, if it's something harmless in the human sense (like that hug) I'll make him tolerate that too. I'm trying to break that snap emotional judgment and have him actually interpret what's going on around him. 

I think the fact he ate the treat off foreign hands is a good sign of either tolerating or enjoying and he got a reward (the food) out of it. 

He's getting better with this. A couple days ago a loose Shiba Inu encountered us from a full run. We were surprised, of course, but after that, there wasn't any more fear. They both just looked at each other. I offered my hand for the Shiba to sniff, then Wally stuck his neck out to sniff, after that, she just went on her way.

Then last night, another loose dog came up. This one got closer, but still no snapping/barking him away. He sniffed noses with the dog (but kinda growled like "don't try nothing funny") and I moved Wally forward so he can get used to tolerating a dog sniffing his rear. He did accept it with not problem. 

More tolerating vs loving - and another practical reality. He might never love dogs, but if he tolerate the social rituals and such - it's a start.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I know I'm late in joining this thread, but I just read your post KBLover and I have to agree with you...
_
Tolerating situations is the first step to loving situations..._

I have proof of that... 

When I first adopted Donatello, and we went to the dog parks, omg, it was terrible! He would growl, snarl, and snap at anything that got too close or was too rambunctious; After several months of conditioning him, and proving to him that he needs to trust me, he now willingly walks up to other dogs and sniffs them first before making any judgments... He gets along great with other dogs now, even several at once, and even ones bigger than he is.

It's a long road to recovery for Donatello, but he's doing fantastic in my eyes...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think it depends on the dog and the situation. To not give your dog that extra push would mean, in some cases, to never move up to a new level. By avoiding the triggers or fear/aggression etc. altogether, you never eliminate the negative response to them, just mask it. By doing things gradually and working up to the full-blown trigger, whether it be a kid or another dog, etc., you prevent the negative response based on the pace your dog needs to work at and hopefully eliminate the response altogether. I think it needs to be a balance of both.. not too much pushing, not too much coddling. Just IMO though.  

Marge, at this point, is fine with a much wider range of women than she used to be. We have another test coming up today, with several of my family members coming over for the holiday. She already has met them all, it will be interesting to see if she's better (or worse) with them this time.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Yeah, as usual, balance and knowing the individual you're working with is the key to working with dogs.

Wally's definitely the kind that would rather avoid (or try to get me to alter) the situation rather than try to understand it/figure it out - whether it's kids or just objects lying in his way or an tight opening - he'll rather bark and whine instead of figuring out how to get through.

Also depends on the handler. I know I will get impatient with coddling QUICK. I'm more apt to go from coddling to upset as to why the coddling isn't working. (I told you it's okay, so why are you still scared?!) But if I keep it matter-of-fact and treat it like another behavior, I can approach it in a different way, more of a "I'm teaching him how to deal with XYZ with the cue being him seeing a kid/dog/water hose/whatever)." That way, I can keep it in my operant conditioning mindset and I just see behavior -> what will my response be sort of thing. Reminds me of the time he wouldn't come in because the water hose was in the way. Had a nice tasty bit of food (roast beef) and he still wouldn't come in. So he lost it (I walked off, -P). Came back 5 minutes later, called him, he sniffed the water hose, and then just jumped over it and came in to get his treat. Hopefully I can teach him that fear = you lose out on things you like. Calm curiosity = You get rewarded, like with the treats on the kids.

I think also since it's closer to my usual interaction with him it might make it seem like no big deal. Kinda like, "well, he's not acting any different, so maybe this isn't anything to get worked up over." Where if I coddled him, that would be FAR different so he might end up being more wary/nervous seeing the change in me.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KB, I was about to ask if Wally knows touch, but then I remembered how you used to say that you want his nose snot on the object rather than him pretending to touch it.  But on that note, will he go target the kids? I use that with Marge for scary people alot of times and it got to a point where she offered the behavior without me even asking for it.

You definitely know what you're doing with him.. he seems quite different than Marge in some ways, in regards to the way he reacts to a fearful stimulus. Giving Marge that "umph" sends her 5 steps backward, doing it with Wally seems to make him better.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I really to need to work on "touch" with Donatello. : (


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

"Touch" is just about Mayzie's favorite thing in the world. Ever since we've had her, she seems to explore things by pushing them with her nose. So it was VERY easy to teach her to "touch." (Ranger, on the other hand, things it's really weird to touch things with his nose.) It's also a great gage of exactly how fearful she is of something. If she's just a little bit fearful, having her touch it goes a long way toward getting her over her fear very quickly. If she's too scared to even try, we know that it's a REALLY scary thing and we back up. (I really wish we could lift her up so she could touch the big scary ceiling fans. But that would probably traumatize her.)

We've also found that laughing at her when something scares her (especially in the house where she's normally very comfortable) seems to help. It's almost goes like:

Mayzie: AAAAHHHH! That thing just totally freaked me out! I'm going to my crate!
Us: Hahahaha! Mayzie, you're such a hoot. I know you couldn't have been scared by that. That was very funny!
Mayzie: Hahahaha! Yeah, good one, huh? I totally did that to crack you guys up. Can I have some chicken now?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> But on that note, will he go target the kids? I use that with Marge for scary people alot of times and it got to a point where she offered the behavior without me even asking for it.
> 
> You definitely know what you're doing with him.. he seems quite different than Marge in some ways, in regards to the way he reacts to a fearful stimulus. Giving Marge that "umph" sends her 5 steps backward, doing it with Wally seems to make him better.



LOL yep, nose snot. Real technical term, that.  If I don't see a nose print on the object (or feel the snot on my skin) then it's not a touch  Some dogs mark with pee. Wally's trail can be seen by nose prints.

He will target the kids (I think it's why he licked her foot - either that or her foot smelled that good to him ). He kind of touches automatically now. To the point where I can't really use it as a guide. I've seen him scared of something, but still stretch out to touch (I think I've made him do it enough to where it's a habit when he doesn't run).

I'd also have to be careful with the timing. If I say "touch" and point at a kid, he might just go over to touch the kid and that might "look bad" to see me point at a kid and the dog going "after" the kid. Sounds silly to me, but people can be...silly. 

I love the touch behavior, though.  

It's the 4th so we've been tested all day. Fireworks going off with sudden bangs. Lots of loud noises from backyards. A dog with a nasty attitude snarling at Wally from 20 feet away. It all was wearing his bravery down. I could tell he wanted to lose it, but it was doing his absolute best hold it together. He remember to come and sit next to me when he felt too freaked out and we took some time in a relatively quiet area and relax. I just stroked him and let him just chill.

He was better after that, FINALLY finished his bathroom business, and was walking quickly out of fun/eagerness instead of worry.

We'll see tonight - I'm sure it's going to be in full force combined with night time.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

We're being tested today, too... the crowd of people has left my house and Marge was EXCELLENT with them.

I put this stuff in her water last night and tonight, but I don't know if it really helped or if I'm just experiencing a placebo effect of sorts. More likely this stuff didn't do a damn thing and she's just getting better around people.

The fireworks, she ignored them during the day, and is now under the desk in the basement because they started to freak her out, but nothing too bad (yet.)


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

YAY!!! The fourth of July was amazing! We didn't go to fireworks because they were all cancelled. We still went to Mom's and a friend of her's came over. Her friend had his two daughters with him. I took Tiberius off his tie out, and, on his leash, walked him over to meet everyone. The three of us girls sat in the grass, since Tiberius was kinda shy about the other two. We talked and didn't pay too much attention to him and after a few minutes he was laying down between the three of us, tail just wagging and letting us all pet him. When Corvyn, my friend, got outta work Tiberius walked right up to him and even knudged him for attention. I think he is getting over his fear of men. 

Later that night I had him at the mall to pick up a friend from work and some kids in a van were watching him. They asked to come pet him and I said sure but they had to move slow. All 4 kids got out of the van and came over. Tiberius sat down and let all four kids pet him all at once. My friend and I went to a local coffee shop, and a couple other folks I know showed up. I let Tiberius out of the car to visit and he walked right up to them.

So today Tiberius made 10 new friends. Well only six that he'll see with any regularity.  He didn't panic over the rain or getting in and out of the car to visit people.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I put this stuff in her water last night and tonight, but I don't know if it really helped or if I'm just experiencing a placebo effect of sorts. More likely this stuff didn't do a damn thing and she's just getting better around people.



Maybe it did work - always possible. 

I always wonder about things like that, though. Do they work? If the dog's behavior does change, is it progress from training or due to the supplement? If you reward a dog while calmed from this kind of product - will that calmness transfer, or is the dog still feeling what he/she felt before, just that his/her body is too calm to react in the usual way?

I guess, just a lot of questions in my mind, probably too many.



Dunixi said:


> YAY!!! The fourth of July was amazing! We didn't go to fireworks because they were all cancelled. We still went to Mom's and a friend of her's came over. Her friend had his two daughters with him. I took Tiberius off his tie out, and, on his leash, walked him over to meet everyone. The three of us girls sat in the grass, since Tiberius was kinda shy about the other two. We talked and didn't pay too much attention to him and after a few minutes he was laying down between the three of us, tail just wagging and letting us all pet him. When Corvyn, my friend, got outta work Tiberius walked right up to him and even knudged him for attention. I think he is getting over his fear of men.


Great job and congrats for both you and Tiberius! That's wonderful!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I always wonder about things like that, though. Do they work? If the dog's behavior does change, is it progress from training or due to the supplement? If you reward a dog while calmed from this kind of product - will that calmness transfer, or is the dog still feeling what he/she felt before, just that his/her body is too calm to react in the usual way?


The blog I PM'ed to you awhile ago had a great post on that. She's tried all sorts of crap with her dog -- DAP, Rescue Remedy, etc - and she doesn't know if she was a) straining too hard to see improvement such that she kind of imagined it or b) she happened to be using a particular product at the same time as she was doing a lot of beh. mod.

As for the "body too calm to react," that's what Acepromazine would have done had I used it tonight. My vet insisted it was fine, but the fearful dog community seems to differ in their opinion: http://www.fearfuldogs.com/acearticle.html

I'll hang on to the bottle, but I e-mailed the manufacturer as I'd like to know if there's alcohol in it, and how much. The ingredients list doesn't really specify.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I had recently bought Donatello some "anti-stress" tablets. I've thankfully only been able to use them three times...

On days Donatello seems like he's lost his mind and can't find it, or on days the maintenance men can't fix the problem in one trip... 

I've had to, literately, do some modifications to my bedroom to demote the prospect of fear for Donatello... Early last month, "something" must have "spooked" him when I was taking a shower... (I put him in my room and close the door when I shower. Any long periods of time that I'm away from him, that is where he goes so he nor other members of my family get any "fishy ideas.) Anyway, I get out of the shower, open the door to my room and... ??? Where's Donatello? I was about to jump the gun and get upset with my family, I assumed they either went in my room, or intentionally opened the door and let him...

They didn't! 

I went back to my room, searched and searched, then ironically I lifted the bed-skirt around my bed and there he was! Cowering and trembling like someone chased him with a 2X4... I had a helluva time coaxing him out... He wouldn't come out, so I had to grab him under his legs and drag him out, he's flailing, kicking, _screaming_, and of course... PEEING!

(That was one of the first times that I got exasperated and purchased the "anti-stress" tablets...)

The whole night and into the next day he acted so weird and just not himself...

Sure enough a few nights later he did it again... And this continued all of last month. (It's a safety hazard for him to be under my bed... The bed is held on to the frame with weak boards that shift _ever so slightly_, and I have one of those _Temperpudic_ beds... OMG. Weighs a ton! And I'm more concerned with sitting on the bed just right and crushing him!)

Well, as this continued, his behavior about hiding under the bed became borderline ridiculous! He'd _run_ to my room when it was "bedtime", I'd close the door to grab not but a 2 minute shower, come out and he's already under the bed, and at this time he was so upset with me for having to pull him a few times that he refused to come to me at all, and would hunker down and just scream at me for even lifting the bed-skirt...

Last month, I would not have thought Donatello was the same dog I've made break-throughs will.

On the nights he'd make a big stink about things, I'd give him a tablet and half. (It's natural, made with Chamomile and just a few other natural herbs.) I'm not sure if was _my_ wishful thinking, or the luck of the draw that he was just "calm", but whenever I gave those to him... He'd just lay there, not doped up and "Captain SpaceCadet", but he'd look at me, and have this... Gentle, I guess the word would be, persona about him... He just radiated "peacefulness"... 

Ironically he's not scared of thunderstorms, or fireworks- He's sleeping right now as I type this... So there was no need for me to give him any...

Luckily though, I've fixed my bed. Ha HA! My family helped me squeeze an extra box-spring _under_ my bed; Not only has it stopped squeaking! (BIG plus for my sleeping habits), but now there's not but five inches on every side under the bed-skirt... Not nearly enough space to hide under... I've had to rearrange some boxes so he wouldn't get stuck between them and a wall... **Sigh**, this dog tried it all...

Anyway, the last three days, he's been doing good... Great even... He's always on my bed when I walk through the door, and he's happy too... He's not cowering on the bed trembling either; now mind you my family heard him jump down and sniff under the door a lot while I was with a client; He does eat and drink while I'm gone, so he's not incapacitated... But I really believed that if I hadn't saved him from himself by putting that box-spring in the way... He would have relapsed for sure...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Heh, nice job with the bed and good for Donatello for his good last days. I hope they continue 

I know about removing "options". Went through that phase. He would run to his crate so much that I've closed the door and not let him in. I mean, I LOVE the fact he LOVES his crate, but if we're working on something, I don't need him in the crate...

He would walk around surfaces he didn't like if he could. Curve around objects instead of jumping over them. Got a little tired of his "cheating" so had to remove the paths, if only temporarily, so he had to use the one that was being worked on. 

It was even worse in the garden where him "curving" around something put him to stepping on my squash and THAT could not go on. LOL


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks KBLover...

I've read enough where people accused me of "feeding into" Donatello's fears, and where as I back-up myself in those areas- This was an area I believed was feeding into his fears big-time, and he was bringing it on himself! He was becoming scared of our room, which is the only place in this house him and I can run to for sanctuary! lol!

I'm glad I'm not the only one that has a dog who's got a few "quirks" (to say the least!) lol!


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## Arieslover (Jul 4, 2009)

Hey all.... I've read through ALLL your posts and I feel my pup is a bit different in that she is only afraid of people. Oh and the vaccuum but thats not a priority right now. 

We got her as a pup, and the only thing I can think of that mind have contributed to her fear of people is, since she was little, she would jump on people when she met them, and silly us, we would say NO. She snagged a ladys pantyhose once and I never forgot it... then as we started to see her acting fearful of ppl, we taught her DOWN so we could say that instead of NO when she jumped on people. Anyway, now she won't go near people at all. She seems like she wants to sort of play with strangers (she is 8 mths) and will go close but as they bend over and reach for her she backs right off. Then she'll try to approach, and again, they bend over or reach out and she's gone again! 

I have taken her out before and asked strangers to give her treats and she has a number of reactions, mostly she takes the treat and bolts, and will continue to do this after many repititions without any change. It didn't seem to make much of a difference. Plus when she has too many treats, she gets sick.

Anyway, I have been taking her to my work and everyone there loves her but I can't say the same for her.... Also, I'm not sure if it helps or hinders but some people will notice that she does that jolty, jumpy, play stance (don't really know how to explain it...) and they will do it back to her... she will reciprocate but it doesn't warm her up to them any more....

On a good note though, I read in here somewhere about asking people to just ignore her and to let her come to them on her terms.... so today when I brought her to work to get a coffee, I mentioned it to the girls that I had heard that idea and one of them took it upon herself (without me realizing what she was doing) to just crouch on the floor and not pay too much attention to Aries.... then suddenly after about 5-10 minutes of other people trying to pet Aries and us all just chatting, Aries almost bowled this girl over with love and affection!! I couldn't bear telling her to get off her! It was so wonderful!! Then I was like "crap, now I have to prevent Aries from mauling this girl to death but still give her praise for not being afraid"

They only other problem we're having with her is basically not listening when we're outside. inside she is almost perfect, performs all commands without a hitch (most of the time), will DROP IT with anything. Also she walks on her leash perfectly beside us. OUTSIDE, she pulls, sniffs, whips herself around the end of the leash, will hardly sit, will NOT lay down, can hardly walk straight if people are walking behind us because she is so afraid (yet will pull even worse if people are walking in front of us) will pick up anything off the ground, and when we say drop it, she chews it faster and SWALLOWS... Its weird how different she is!! But I noticed something today walking home from our visit to my work.... she pulls and acts crazy the whole walk home... and as soon as we got close to the house, she was an angel, walked right by my side, I could put down the leash and she woulda stayed glued to my side.... And I got to thinking.... the only time she really is corrected is in the house.... Go figure....

Side notes* I have started to wonder if it is my shy nature when approaching strangers or being approached that is hurting her??? If thats the case, there's only so much I can do about that.... not sure what to do with that...

And, please go easy on me... We have purchased Don Sullivan's DVDs and have started working with her on walking without pulling, and I'm not sure if anyone has seen the collar, but its a type of Martingale/plastic pokey collar, that when snapped is supposed to correct her. When she pulls the leash taught, you gently snap it, so as she learns that... Aww never mind, you guys know what that will teach her!! I am not sure how I feel about the system, but she is an 8mth old, 55 pound, retreiver/husky and I am petite.... we are at our wits end about the pulling... and I am certainly open to advice regarding Don Sullivans training system if you have used it!! 

Sorry about the novel, but I have yet to be able to speak with anyone who has any (difficult) dog training experience


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Thanks for sharing your story and experiences 





Arieslover said:


> I have taken her out before and asked strangers to give her treats and she has a number of reactions, mostly she takes the treat and bolts, and will continue to do this after many repititions without any change. It didn't seem to make much of a difference. Plus when she has too many treats, she gets sick.


It's a good sign she's approaching to get the treats. Maybe have her sit before getting the treats and then when she starts to bolt, have her stay or sit again. Basically changing the "after treat" part of the chain. 




Arieslover said:


> Anyway, I have been taking her to my work and everyone there loves her but I can't say the same for her.... Also, I'm not sure if it helps or hinders but some people will notice that she does that jolty, jumpy, play stance (don't really know how to explain it...) and they will do it back to her... she will reciprocate but it doesn't warm her up to them any more....


Sounds like a play bow or something similar? Seems like a good sign. Maybe she's just not sure what the game will be, or if there's no game (and considering you're at work this seems likely), she'll just settle back down. Of course, only you can see her overall demeanor.



Arieslover said:


> On a good note though, I read in here somewhere about asking people to just ignore her and to let her come to them on her terms.... so today when I brought her to work to get a coffee, I mentioned it to the girls that I had heard that idea and one of them took it upon herself (without me realizing what she was doing) to just crouch on the floor and not pay too much attention to Aries.... then suddenly after about 5-10 minutes of other people trying to pet Aries and us all just chatting, Aries almost bowled this girl over with love and affection!! I couldn't bear telling her to get off her! It was so wonderful!! Then I was like "crap, now I have to prevent Aries from mauling this girl to death but still give her praise for not being afraid"


LOL nice  Definitely good - congrats for that! Sounds like there's one way for Aries to come around! 



Arieslover said:


> They only other problem we're having with her is basically not listening when we're outside. inside she is almost perfect, performs all commands without a hitch (most of the time), will DROP IT with anything. Also she walks on her leash perfectly beside us. OUTSIDE, she pulls, sniffs, whips herself around the end of the leash, will hardly sit, will NOT lay down, can hardly walk straight if people are walking behind us because she is so afraid (yet will pull even worse if people are walking in front of us) will pick up anything off the ground, and when we say drop it, she chews it faster and SWALLOWS... Its weird how different she is!!


Welcome to the world of context. Dogs learn their commands...and the context in which that command was given. EVERYTHING matters to her, even things we can't perceive like the scent of the area. Or things we don't consider "important" like am I on the rug or the floor? In the hall or the kitchen? Was the tv on or not? Were you speaking loudly or softly? All of it can creates a context (depends on the dog what will be a part of the "snapshot" that forms a context) and if any of those things the dog makes as part of her context is different, then the dog perceives "oh! this is a different situation!"

Inside and outside are vastly different environments. All the scents, sights, movement, objects, all different. Add to that the sense of constant vigil a fearful/shy dog can have and you get radically different behavior. Will have to work with Aries on her training while outside just like you were teaching her from scratch until she catches on that things still mean the same no matter where she is or how she feels internally. Sit still means butt on the ground, front legs straight vertical. Down still means sprawl yourself on the ground, etc.

I would imagine the chewing and swallowing is probably her thinking she's about to lose whatever, so she consumes it faster. Wally will do the same thing. I have to direct him off BEFORE it gets in his mouth for that very reason. Forget "drop it". I have to do "leave it" before his lips touch it! What I'm trying now is to use that object as a cue for him to sit/stand next to it like he's saying "I found something!". He's starting to get it with the poop but less so with left-behind food due to less consistency. I might have to "rig" a situation just to get some training in. An example of context - Wally will NOT eat off the floor at home. At all. I can leave my whole dinner right there in front of him and he'll not eat it. (that was his "final exam" of sorts) but outside, a end of a left-behind hot dog bun and I'm back to going "leave it!" "sit" then reward him by pinching a piece off and giving it to him. 

Another more minor example of context, when teaching Wally to speak, I did it in a room with open area. So when I ask for "speak" when he's near objects, he's less sure about it. He's even moved to get away from the object - THEN spoke. 

Likewise if I ask for "speak" from behind - he'll want to face me, then bark as that's how he first learned it. We might focus only on "is he barking or no" and reward when he is - he's learning that and taking in much more. We see this when we ask for the same command in a different context. My standing behind him changed the context so he thought to "change it back" by facing me - then he could "speak".




Arieslover said:


> But I noticed something today walking home from our visit to my work.... she pulls and acts crazy the whole walk home... and as soon as we got close to the house, she was an angel, walked right by my side, I could put down the leash and she woulda stayed glued to my side.... And I got to thinking.... the only time she really is corrected is in the house.... Go figure....


Probably on more familiar ground. The scents, etc, remind her she's at home so she probably "switches back" to her "usual" self. Also might feel she can relax more as she knows the area and feels safer. I've noticed the same things - sometimes in reverse (i.e. Wally is like "WE'RE HOME!!11!1" and runs down the hill and around to the gate and waits for me there).




Arieslover said:


> Side notes* I have started to wonder if it is my shy nature when approaching strangers or being approached that is hurting her??? If thats the case, there's only so much I can do about that.... not sure what to do with that...


Maybe, but probably only in that she'll get a little less exposure perhaps, but as long as you're calm/not nervous around strangers when they do approach or you approach them, it'll be okay. 

I'm not the most outgoing person in the world either, so I know where you're coming from.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Arieslover - welcome to DF. That's a great win with Aries at work. Congratulations. I would second what KB says about context. Dogs have to learn that it's ok/not ok to do whatever in a lot of different places to learn that it's ok/not ok to do it anywhere. That goes for everything from a simple sit to potty training to being afraid of people. Repetition in many different situations is key. Still working on that with my dog. 

RE Don Sullivan's methods - I'm not that familiar with them, so will let others comment. I can say that any harsh or aversive methods used on a fearful dog can really backfire on you & make the dog even more fearful. That includes leash pops and correction collars, IMO. Our dog pulled like a freight train when she was younger and was in danger of damaging her throat. At the advice of a trainer, we tried an EasyWalk harness that hooks to the leash in front. That, combined with 180 degree turns and full stops when she pulled helped her learn that when she pulled she would get absolutely nowhere and would in fact end up going in the opposite direction of where she wanted to go.

It helped that she had several friends (human and dog) in the neighborhood that she loved to distraction and would pull like crazy to get to. When we started the training, as soon as she started pulling we would first do a 180 and go back the way we had come. If she stopped pulling, we would turn around and go back in the direction of our friends. If she started pulling again, we did another 180. If she was pulling very badly, we'd go all the way back home and she wouldn't get to see them at all. A few times of that and she started learning that pulling was a no-no. Took about a month to perfect, but she doesn't pull at all now. Teaching loose leash walking, heel and a near-heel also helps with pulling since the dog knows what you want her to do vs. just what you don't want.

Here's a link to the harness - easily available in pet stores & online. 
http://www.petexpertise.com/dog-col.../easy-walk-no-pull-harness.html?sef_rewrite=1

Let us know how things are going & post pics of your pup soon!


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I love this thread. I feel so bolstered by reading other successes and it's comforting to know other people understand how I feel.

This week I had an upsetting incident at the groomer's. The last time I took Cupid to this particular grooming place, they asked if he had ever been groomed before because he seemed very skittish and shy of everything. I explained that he was a rescue and I didn't know his history.

Since then, I've taken him to the grooming place at the place where he goes for boarding. But this week, I took him and Clayton to the first place because they are so close to my house. When I got there, they pulled out Cupid's card, where I noticed VERY DIFFICULT written at the top in all capital letters. And highlighted. It made me feel bad, because that wasn't the impression they gave me before. It just gave me a really bad feeling. Plus they gave Clayton a really bad haircut--different from what I told them.

Anyone have any suggestions for finding groomers that are good with fearful dogs? I would just take Cupid back to the boarding groomer, but they don't do ear cleaning, nails, or other extras.

In upcoming news, I'm taking the boys to my cousin's birthday party on Saturday. It's being held at a park, and the invitation states that "leashed friends are welcome." My aunt has been wanting to meet the boys, and I want to give this a try. Trouble is, Cupid and Clayton (to a lesser degree) are a bit leash reactive.

I'm planning to take lots of treats and try things like "touch" and "watch me." I'm also going to try "find it," which is one my trainer told me about, where you throw treats on the ground and thus keep the dog focused on something positive.

Any other tips? And good thoughts would be appreciated.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Thracian - sorry about the groomer situation. I'm in exactly the same boat, which is why I groom Poca at home. We had a groomer who was wonderful in CA and were just starting to get Poca used to it when we moved. The groomer we had before then would say she was fine, but I always had the impression that it wasn't true. When pressed they still said very little, so I know how frustrated you feel. We did ask our vet for a rec and she gave us the name of someone we might try. Trouble is she's in a strip mall, which is a ground zero scary place for Poca. So we're going to have to do a lot of desensitization just to get her in the door before we can even try her services. Love, love being a fearful dog owner sometimes! 

RE the birthday party, I don't have much advice, either, other than to say what works for us is staying on the perimeter of events like that to keep Poca below threshold. I slowly work her towards the center of things with training, treats, calmly sitting around. Sometimes we make it in, sometimes we don't. If I plan on socializing with people myself, I leave her at home because I know going in that she's going to require 100% of my attention. And I resign myself to the fact that I may only be able to be there a short while since I don't want to flood her. Maybe I'm being too cautious about it but it's the route I've chosen and I don't deal well with setbacks (ha!). I think as long as you know what you're dealing with going in and you keep your expectations low/realistic, it should be fine. Let us know how it goes!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey everyone! Sorry I've been away for a while. I've only just been able to skim through the posts from the past 2 weeks! We were on vacation and away from internet access for a while, and I haven't had to time to write an update since we got back. I'll try to be brief, but this may get kind of long! 

Brenna has had to face alot of new situations and challenges in her socialization over the past two weeks. It began with a large group of people (about 20) we had over to our house for a church choir social. We anticipated Brenna's need for her own safe, quiet place and put up a baby gate across the doorway of the office so that she could hear and see people without feeling threatened by them. After about 8 people had arrived, I let B come out into the living room just to see what was going on. Then I took her back to her room. During the course of the evening several people came to the gate, and she came up to each of them to sniff their hands and even allowed some to pet her. There was one little girl there (about 6 yrs. old) who wanted to look at Brenna but was a little afraid to touch her. Her family doesn't have any pets, and her only previous interaction with dogs has been with a hyper-active, overly "friendly" little fuzzball who jumps on people constantly. Once I assured her that Brenna would not jump on her, the little girl finally let Brenna sniff her hand...before long B was coming over to the gate looking for her new little friend!  It was so cute! I was pleased and surprised to find that Brenna did not pace or pant or otherwise act upset by the presence of so many people in her house. I know that being in her favorite room with a "safety net" up helped alot, but she really did even better than I ever expected!

We also took B along on our vacation...the first time hubby and I have travelled together with a dog! Trying to get Brenna to go potty at rest areas along the way was difficult, but it had to be done because our first day of travel was 10 hrs in the car! The noise from the interstate traffic really bothered her, and anytime she was within visual range of the car, all she could think about was getting back in it. But we eventually found a couple of nicely forested rest areas where she was able to relax enough to go.  Ah, relief!

We spent most of the week with hubby's grandfather who lives on a little lake in MI. Grandpa is very dog-savvy, and even though Brenna started out very nervous, she quickly warmed up to him. She also seemed to like his house because it had lots of corners for her to curl up and "hide" in! By the end of the week, B was laying at Grandpa's feet and watching TV with him! Our biggest problem there was with the neighbor's dog...it seems that most people around the lake let their dogs roam quite a bit, and this dog didn't know where the property line was. So, half the times we took B outside to go potty, this dog would hear us and come running through the trees into grandpa's yard, barking loudly the whole time. It's owners weren't very helpful either, as they would start frantically calling the dog back, only scaring Brenna even more. 

The last couple days of our trip were even more challenging. Brenna came down with a nasty case of diarrhea, and it didn't look like we could wait to get her home before seeing a vet. So, we had to make an emergency trip to a vet in MI. Brenna was very cooperative there, even though she was nervous. I'm so glad she doesn't flip out at the vet's office like some dogs I've seen. Then we headed on to spend out last night away with hubby's family. They have 2 mini-doxies, so I knew this would be an interesting experience for us all! The meeting didn't go as well as I'd have like, partly because the in-laws didn't go along with our idea to let the dogs meet in a neutral area away from their house. But it was okay in the end. Mitzi, who is a female long-hair, was afraid of Brenna and wanted to be far enough away to make a quick escape, but close enough to catch B's scent. Fritzi, a male wire-hair, was all excitement and kisses at first glance. He was literally standing on his back legs trying to reach up and kiss Brenna on the nose! B was "tolerant" of all this to a point, and whenever she got tired of the unwanted attention, she would just walk away. I was somewhat surprised that she didn't even growl at him or do anything to send a "stop that" signal, but I have to wonder if all those years of having puppies crawl all over her and nip at her somewhat desensitized her to being bothered by small dogs. As far as interaction with hubby's family, Brenna was pretty brave. It seems that she is finding that inner craving for attention and love, even though it is still somewhat buried beneath layers of hurt and distrust.

The greatest thing about our vacation was coming home! Brenna has been like a new doggie since we returned. Something clicked inside her while we were away, and she is no longer afriad of hubby at all! I don't know what happened between them, but they have really bonded. Today I watched the most precious sight as she sat next to his recliner and gazed up at him with love in those bright brown collie eyes. It's as if going away for a while, but coming back to the same old familiar place again, solidified in her mind that this really is home now....and that we really do love her.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Thracian: I'd go with all of those (I'd be wearing touch out, personally. Touch this party hat. Touch this person. Touch this chair. Touch this table leg, etc). But that might be because touch is pretty much become my favorite cue LOL

CocoaCream: What a great story. Always great to hear stories like this.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> We got her as a pup, and the only thing I can think of that mind have contributed to her fear of people is, since she was little, she would jump on people when she met them, and silly us, we would say NO. She snagged a ladys pantyhose once and I never forgot it... then as we started to see her acting fearful of ppl, we taught her DOWN so we could say that instead of NO when she jumped on people. Anyway, now she won't go near people at all. She seems like she wants to sort of play with strangers (she is 8 mths) and will go close but as they bend over and reach for her she backs right off. Then she'll try to approach, and again, they bend over or reach out and she's gone again!


Hi Arieslover, KB covered most of it but there was one thing here I just wanted to point out. While a lot of your dogs' behavior does sound learned, don't forget that genetics play a role, too. You could do EVERYTHING right with a dog and still wind up with an animal afraid of this or that or the next thing. 



> They only other problem we're having with her is basically not listening when we're outside. inside she is almost perfect, performs all commands without a hitch (most of the time), will DROP IT with anything. Also she walks on her leash perfectly beside us. OUTSIDE, she pulls, sniffs, whips herself around the end of the leash, will hardly sit, will NOT lay down, can hardly walk straight if people are walking behind us because she is so afraid (yet will pull even worse if people are walking in front of us) will pick up anything off the ground, and when we say drop it, she chews it faster and SWALLOWS... Its weird how different she is!! But I noticed something today walking home from our visit to my work....


In my opinion, behavior modification comes before obedience.  I, too, sometimes don't understand why my dog isn't responding to me in a given situation and it can be frustrating. Today, for example, when out on her 20' long leash she REFUSED to come to me when called - only afterwards did I realize the reason why - kids were playing with a ball and it was scaring her, AND there were some stray firecrackers going off. Forcing her to come or reeling her in might have only freaked her out more because she'll feel trapped in a scary environment.

Don't blame her for not being able to walk when people are behind her. If YOU were terrified of people, you'd be concerned that they'd come and sneak up on you, too. Reprimanding her for it is going to increase the fear and potentially mess around with her overall esteem/confidence.

*@Thracian *- I have absolutely no advice in terms of looking for a groomer, but the one and only time I had my Marge bathed/dried by a groomer I stayed with her the entire time. Maybe you can find someone who you think might be okay and ask if it's possible you stay with your dog the first time or two, explaining his fear issues?

As for the birthday party, I definitely think distraction will be key. The only other thing I can say is to listen to and watch your dogs.. if you sense an outburst or think something's going to unsettle them, I wouldn't take a gamble on it with kids around, so I'd move away and let them regain their composure.

*@CocoaCream* I am so happy Brenna and your husband finally clicked. What a feeling that must be. I wish it'd happen one day between Marge and my father but I'm not sure it ever will. But great job to all of you and I hope you enjoyed your vacation 
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As for my own progress, we had a HUGEEEE success today. For the first time since the beginning of classes, she play-bowed to other dogs at Rally. She did sniffs with 3 dogs.. Chase, a BC who she ADORES and has known for a while now, but hasn't interacted with, a GSD puppy bitch who she previously had some level of fear of, and another dog who she has only seen a few times. We're done with Rally for now and I think it ended on a very good note.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> In my opinion, behavior modification comes before obedience.


I have to look at it from a different view. (interesting articles, btw) Maybe it's my dog, but I have used obedience as the behavior modification as much as classical conditioning or distraction/redirection.

Or at least I say I modified his behavior. I.e. he used to bolt when frightened, now he sits by me. To me, that's a modified behavior chain. I replaced one behavior in the chain with another. The reward for completing the revised chain gets added in and the context is always a consideration (so the reward gets matched with the overall situation, even if indirectly). 

Much of what I've read about behavior modification is a lot of that, replacing behavior chains either with CC or OC or from one to the other (often CC -> OC). Some work at the start of the chain (i.e. the initial emotional response), I'll break it where I can to get a "foot in the door" and then work on the rest. But to change his emotional response, I need him to actually BE in the situation (so the proper context is being reinforced/worked on) so then I can proceed to "tell" him it's really a good situation. If he's booking for home - makes that kinda hard! 

I look at it as killing 2 birds with one stone. He learns how to have self control and keep his wits (because he has to think about the cue) while also getting rewarded and learning how to think through the fear to know what to do in that situation. (namely come sit by me if he's that freaked out). Also gives me a "built in" signal for what he thinks about the scenario playing out.

Of course, I could have it all mixed up. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm getting my facts and observations confused 

Consider the Look at That game. Yes, it's considered a way to apply CC (pair looking at the stimulus with a reward so that stimulus predicts reward instead of something bad), but there's obedience behaviors going on too. Focus/Watching. Maybe sitting. Staying. Standing. Responding to a cue (in this case, environmental). With any game, there's discipline and rules being learned. That's (one reason) why I love playing games with him.

Again, maybe it's me. I give "obedience" cues to him when he's scared, and I expect them to be followed. No, I'm not going to jerk his leash (most of the time, he's off leash anyway because I don't want to "cheat" with the leash) but I expect his performance, especially if I know that 10 seconds of being in the situation he's not going to be afraid anyway (like with the kids).


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think the difference might be that Wally is not outright terrified, just insecure, especially with the little kids. By you giving him that extra push with a command here or two, you lessen his insecurity. It almost seems like you tell him "it's okay" by giving him normal commands in an unsettling situation. 

Maybe Wally is also a more handler-oriented dog.. Deege's Donatello seems like that as well, since she can go up to another dog, pet it, and literally begin to change Donatello's perception immediately. 

Marge, on the other hand, literally goes from 0-60 in 3 seconds many times. When Marge has those "umm yeah I'm a little unsure about this" kind of reaction, I WILL use commands to help her get through it (watch me, touch, leave it, depending on the situation). However, when she gets into her fright mode, those commands do not work. It's at that point that she's either a) already fixated on whatever it is or b) high-tailin' it out of there to get away. 

Just as clarification, I do my own version of the Look at That game in some situations, too. Especially on walks (or at training classes) when there are other people/dogs around. If she looks calmly at them, without reactivity or fear, she earns a treat. Maybe that's the difference - I classify it in my mind as being CC, you think of it as OC or both. I think of that as more of a behavior modification tool than an obedience command, but aside from word choice I don't think we're that far off from each other.

I think it's a case of whatever works best for the dog. Some dogs make NO progress when given that extra bump forward (Marge) and others thrive on it (Wally). And it is contextual of course as well. Aries, now it's your job to pick through all of it and start your training.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Yeah, I think that's the difference - I tend to look at everything from an operant standpoint. To me, my response becomes the consequence of his behavior, even if that behavior was purely emotionally driven. 

I think we work different parts of the chain (likely due to our dogs' differences as you mentioned). I think a lot of your work starts at the beginning with the emotional response. I think I work the end (the manifested behavior) and work my way back to the emotional response. 

What's fascinating is that either way can work and that you can change which you use based on the situation. I think that's what I find most fascinating that even with fearful/shy/timid dogs, there's still a lot of different ways to attack the problem.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

I've been reading through the last few posts with great interest because I'm really struggling with the whole "tolerating" vs "loving" thing. Mayzie truly seems to be the type of dog that the more she's exposed to things, the more quickly she gets over her fear of them.



MissMutt said:


> Some dogs make NO progress when given that extra bump forward (Marge) and others thrive on it (Wally). And it is contextual of course as well.


For Mayzie, it really depends on the situation. Like you said, if there's something she's truly afraid of, we have to go VERY slowly. But if she's just concerned about it, often just exposing her (not flooding her) to it over a period of time, is enough to get her to move past it.

I've also realized that it's REALLY important to pinpoint your dog's triggers. For instance, we thought Mayzie was afraid of the umbrella that's part of our patio set. She's afraid of the ceiling fan and movement over her head in general. So we worked with her on DS/CC and she seemed to be fine with it. And then suddenly, there would be days where she would act terrified again and wouldn't even come in the back yard.

We FINALLY realized that she was afraid of the grill! When we first got her, the grill was covered and with the warmer weather, we began uncovering it whenever we wanted to cook out. For whatever reason, the grill being uncovered scared the bejeebus out of her. And of course, on the nights we grill, we put up the umbrella. So all this time, we were trying to help her overcome her fear of the umbrella when she had been telling us, "No, you dumb heads! It's the grill!"

In addition to tossing her pieces of whatever we had made on the grill that night, we also started just leaving the grill uncovered so she could get used to seeing it. We didn't do any type of CC everytime she went into the backyard (although many times I do training out there with her). We just wanted her to get used to seeing it as part of her environment and she couldn't care less about it now. 

So it really is being very careful about pinpointing the EXACT cause of the fear and then working within the DOG'S parameters (what works best for them) to help them get past it.


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## Arieslover (Jul 4, 2009)

Thanks for your helps guys!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

ColoradoSooner said:


> So it really is being very careful about pinpointing the EXACT cause of the fear and then working within the DOG'S parameters (what works best for them) to help them get past it.


Best advice as far as fearful dogs go, IMO. When we adopted Jonas he was a wreck of fears, and it took (and is still taking) a lot of time to figure out exactly what triggers his fear and what his threshold was for various things.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

This isn't really "fear" related, I guess, but since you all know more about Brenna's background and progress, I'll ask here anyway....

A couple nights ago, hubby and I were away from home for a few hours, and when we returned, we found one of my wooden collectibles in her crate, all chewed up! I wasn't angry or upset, just surprised that she would actually have gone in a room she isn't normally in...found this decoration and carried it back to her crate to nibble while we were out! Then I started thinking back and remembered a few other instances in which a random item from around the house "appeared" in the living room while we were gone. At the time, I blamed most of these occurrences on the cats...but now I'm starting to connect the dots, and I realize it was actually Brenna! 

Does this sound like a wee bit of separation anxiety to you all? That's the only thing I can think of...at this point, she isn't showing any other signs of stress, but it's apparent that she is getting a little bored/lonely when we are away. 

I did buy her a couple of new chew toys yesterday, and I'm thinking of spreading them around the house anytime we are going to be gone for a while in hopes that she will go get them instead of anything else that she shouldn't have. The funny thing is that she really doesn't chew or carry toys around when we are around, but I know she chews on her rawhide bones at night and when we are away.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hm. I'd chalk it up to a combination of getting more comfortable to explore your house AND being bored when no one's home. Doesn't sound like separation anxiety. Try leaving her some Kongs with frozen stuff inside and see if that helps. Might want to close off a few rooms too so she can't get in them.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

*Great Day!*



> Might want to close off a few rooms too so she can't get in them.


I agree with this. I would definitely shut off a few rooms.

I posted last week about a birthday party at a local park. I was worried about how Cupid would do. In fact, this morning I asked myself if I was crazy to be trying this, but I decided to give it a shot anyway. And . . .

Cupid did GREAT!

I took the dog to my parents' house first, and Cupid nuzzled the hands of my mom and dad with his nose without prompting. They held out their hands, and he went right over. It was such a wonderful thing to see. I praised him for doing it.

We went to the park, and there were about 30 people there and one other dog. My two dogs met the other dog (a yorkie-chihuahua mix) without incident. For the first 20 minutes or so, Cupid's tail was tucked. He got more comfortable as time passed. We went for several small walks when he started to seem stressed, and they helped. We walked by a stream and he peeked through the wood slats of the fence to watch the geese.

This was the first time my aunt has met the boys. Clayton went right to her, but I had to lure Cupid with a treat. I told her that he was shy, and she said she understood and talked about her experience with one of her dogs. It's so nice to meet dog-savvy people who understand what I mean when I say that a dog is shy. Some people hear that and completely disregard it, acting like they know my dog better than I do. But that wasn't the case here.

We settled into a bench a little separated from the rest of the group. This wasn't deliberate--it was just that the other tables were taken--but it worked out quite well for us. People came over a couple at a time to talk to us, and that was just the right speed for Cupid. He would approach some people and stay distant from others, and it was all OK.

After an hour, someone came with a couple of papillons. Cupid growled at one of them, so I redirected his attention to me, and then he was fine. As the party continued, I would have them do obedience commands for treats when they seemed restless. And by the end, the boys had settled down on the ground by the bench.

Clayton enjoyed the event as well. He is not fearful of people or other dogs--in fact, I need to work with him on proper greetings, because he is all too likely to jump on people to say hello.

I'm thrilled that it went so well, especially after my initial concerns. Cupid did great, and he wore himself out. In fact, the boys and I all came home and took a nap. And after being up for a few hours, they are napping again now. I wish this park were a bit closer so I could let them wear themselves out more often.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm so glad the party went well. I love it when I can integrate my dog into one more small space in my life vs. leaving her out or not doing something myself. Peanut butter for everyone! (That's how we celebrate wins in my house.  )


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Another victory in the life of Kim...

In her agility class there is a handler with limited mobility who runs her dog via one of those motorized upright things...looks like this:









Not only that she's right behind us in the running order so she starts zooming around getting ready while we are mid-course. As soon as she came in the door Kim tensed and we started playing the "Look at That!" game as the Evil Thing came closer and parked itself next to us. We've played the LAT game so many times now that Kim "gets it" almost immediately and we were able to run our courses and heel right past the ET without issue.

On one hand it's almost like having a dog without fear issues now...as long as I nip them in the bud like that. If she had been allowed to react at all before being interrupted then we were likely still be dealing with fallout.

Anyway... *victory dance!*


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Holy cow - Poca would come out of her skin if she saw a Segway! I'm going to have to read up on "look at that" -- sounds very useful. Congrats!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah.. I think Marge would freak if she saw one of those, too.

(Amazing what people will do for the sport of agility -- I saw a woman at a trial running with a huge oxygen mask strapped to her back.)

On the Marge News Front..

    HUGE SUCCESS WITH KIDS TODAY!

We were at the park, two young kids were walking by and yelled from about 50' away, asking what kind of dog Marge was and stuff. They seemed nice enough, so I invited them up to her, and they gave her treats and let her sniff them. She did wonderfully with them! They didn't really try to pet her, which was probably better for her sake, but she was right in the center of them, wagging her tail, waiting for lovin' in the form of treats. I was REALLY happy to see that.

She's still freaking out on regular walks in the neighborhood. Going to resume my early morning walks tomorrow, so hopefully no one will be out and she'll realize nothing's going to happen to her.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

winniec777 said:


> Holy cow - Poca would come out of her skin if she saw a Segway! I'm going to have to read up on "look at that" -- sounds very useful. Congrats!


That game really is a lifesaver, IMO. Kim's improvement rate increased dramatically once she figured out the game.



MissMutt said:


> (Amazing what people will do for the sport of agility -- I saw a woman at a trial running with a huge oxygen mask strapped to her back.)


It really is nuts, isn't it?

And congrats on the positive kids intro...sounds like they were good kids for the job. Another step in the right direction


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Someone explain the "look at this" game for me...

For those that know Donatello, do you think it'd be a "game" beneficial to him?

He's doing well with "touch" and gets happy when I offer treats as reward, it registers to him like, _"This is so *easy*, c'mon!"_ lol!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I am actually wondering about the game, too. What I know about it is that you basically wait for him to look at something, then mark and reward. You are using classical conditioning to pair the scary stimulus with something positive in hopes of changing the association. The idea is that although you're basically asking the dog to look at something else, his attention is going to swing right back to you when you reward.

I try to play on and off with Marge, but since I don't know everything about it (it's in Control Unleashed, which I haven't gotten) I don't use it too much. 

I did it tonight with Marge at the beach. She saw kids on tricycles about 75 ft away, and I clicked/treated each time she looked at them. My only question is this.. if I'm in an environment where there might be one than one thing that catches her attention, should I simply click and treat for whatever she looks at? When I say "look at that" she just kind of sniffs the floor. So I wait for her to do the looking herself.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

We're having a small house warming party this weekend (MAYBE 10 people. I severely limited the guest list because of Jonas + new environment) and I'm nervous. Every one coming is extremely respectful of dogs (the dog rules I put on the guest list make me sound SO uptight ) so I'm hoping the low keyness of it all won't be upsetting, otherwise I'll end the party quickly.

Does anyone have a super protective dog like Jonas? He's extremely protective of me, and fearful. If people are calm and quiet, he only goes nuts on their entry and stops for the most part once they hand him a treat and sit down. However, despite our work, he does have his set backs and if someone moves towards me or sits down near me too quickly, he goes bonkers (hackles up and all) and it's NOT a matter of handing him a treat that will stop him. I'm not worried about biting, he'd much rather flee the scene, but typically in these situations I pick him up and leave the room for a bit. Is this the wrong way to handle that? I don't want to reward him for guarding me, even though I'm only intending to remove him from a stressful situation so he can calm down. I don't pet or praise him. Just a quick scoop and walk out of the room.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

I guess if it was me, I'd feel more comfortable crating him or putting him in another room. Less stressful for Jonas and you can relax with your guests without always worrying if something or someone is going to set him off (and your guests can also relax without worrying if they're going to upset your dog).

If you want to use the opportunity to help socialize him, maybe you could make a party game of it with your guests. "And now we've come to the 'help me socialize my fearful dog' portion of the evening!" Give everyone yummy treats, give them some rules to follow, and then bring Jonas out for a few minutes. If anyone breaks the rules, they've lost and they get a bag of dog poo or something. Ha! (I'm just joking about the last part.)


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

ColoradoSooner said:


> I guess if it was me, I'd feel more comfortable crating him or putting him in another room. Less stressful for Jonas and you can relax with your guests without always worrying if something or someone is going to set him off (and your guests can also relax without worrying if they're going to upset your dog).
> 
> If you want to use the opportunity to help socialize him, maybe you could make a party game of it with your guests. "And now we've come to the 'help me socialize my fearful dog' portion of the evening!" Give everyone yummy treats, give them some rules to follow, and then bring Jonas out for a few minutes. If anyone breaks the rules, they've lost and they get a bag of dog poo or something. Ha! (I'm just joking about the last part.)


Jonas is terrified of crates, so we don't crate him. He was kept in a crate at a "breeder" the first three years of his life. He DOES however, enjoy digging under and hiding under a blanket, so we have a little fort area he can go to if he gets overwhelmed. 
Jonas is an odd duck. He likes to see people, and if someone has food he'll actually sit by them. He just doesn't like them to touch him, make any loud noises, or come at him, which thankfully none of the company I keep would do. So far we've come a super long way, and he's done well with a group of 5 at our house. He's also much more social if Smalls is right there with him, and she's his exact opposite. Crazy in love with attention. 
If you check back in the thread, the game you suggested is actually just like the therapy he has with our behaviorist, LOL. It has totally turned his life around.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I did it tonight with Marge at the beach. She saw kids on tricycles about 75 ft away, and I clicked/treated each time she looked at them. My only question is this.. if I'm in an environment where there might be one than one thing that catches her attention, should I simply click and treat for whatever she looks at?


I do if it's a "snap" look.

For Wally, if he looks like he's going to give himself whiplash looking at it. He gets a c/t for it.

If I want him to look/interact with something, that's where the targeting or actual touching will come into play.

He's getting better with objects and doesn't care too much about things like bikes and scooters (which was surprising, really, even when they come really close). I'm working on it mostly with sounds (when he hears a sound and looks in the direction) at the moment, especially sounds of kids.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Just wanted to pop in and see how everyone's doing. 

Things are going pretty well with Mayzie. We're making progress with her ceiling fan (aka Mothra) fear. I'm doing the LAT game with her and she is actually taking treats in the kitchen with the ceiling fan on for short periods of time. It's kind of amazing how that works!

However, I'm struggling with something.

I think part of her fear is that the ceiling fan is unpredictable. She never knows whether it's going to be on or off. And I think it freaks her out a little when it first starts moving. I've toyed with the idea of leaving it on all the time so that maybe it would be a little more predictable and become just part of the scenery, so to speak. But at the same time, I don't want to flood her.

This is probably the most frightening thing she's encountered since coming to live with us. The first time she ever saw it, she flattened out on the ground, shaking, with her teeth chattering. So she's come a LONG way. And I definitely don't want to cause a set-back or really stress her out.

Any ideas or thoughts?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Does she look at it?

If so, maybe try the Look at That game with the ceiling from a distance at first?


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Yes...we started the LAT game down at the end of the hall and now she's progressed where she can take some treats in the same room as the ceiling fan for a short period of time. But she always wants to run when we first turn it on. But then she'll come back after it gets going. So I'm not sure whether we should take the leap to just leaving it on.

Of course, we had a setback this morning. She was on the bed, somehow rolled off and knocked our bedside table over (it's just one of those light 3 legged ones). Well, of course, that scared the crap out of her and now she's moping in her crate and won't come out.

Sigh.

But the good thing is, I know she'll bounce back. It's just a matter of when.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Can you give her a treat everytime the fan turns on, and then just repeat turning it on and off? Almost like you would if you were charging a clicker (repeat the event and just treat)?

Otherwise, try leaving it on. You never know if it'll work until you see her reaction. 

Yeah, I hate when things like that happen to fearful dogs. I was playing with Wally in the hall and I leaned on a chair. Well the chair made a sound (he's not used to it making noise) and it scared him and it took a little while before he'd stand next to it again.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Can you give her a treat everytime the fan turns on, and then just repeat turning it on and off? Almost like you would if you were charging a clicker (repeat the event and just treat)?


Oh, I like this idea! It's like shaping...breaking down the action into smaller increments. Fabulous! Thanks!

As an update to the table incident, she left her crate (which is in the bedroom) and ran downstairs to the den. We were able to coax her back upstairs for her morning treat and she took it but she was shaking like a leaf. I'm sure trying to coax her back into the bedroom this evening is going to be next to impossible. In Nicole Wilde's book, "Help for Your Fearful Dog," she talks about how smart many fearful dogs are...that they learn very quickly. And that this is both a blessing and a curse. Makes them easy to train but when something scares them, they also tend to "learn" what scared them quickly and that's part of the reason it takes them so long to get over their fears. (Of course, I'm paraphrasing greatly there.)

Do you all feel that's a fair assessment of your dogs?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> As an update to the table incident, she left her crate (which is in the bedroom) and ran downstairs to the den. We were able to coax her back upstairs for her morning treat and she took it but she was shaking like a leaf. I'm sure trying to coax her back into the bedroom this evening is going to be next to impossible. In Nicole Wilde's book, "Help for Your Fearful Dog," she talks about how smart many fearful dogs are...that they learn very quickly. And that this is both a blessing and a curse. Makes them easy to train but when something scares them, they also tend to "learn" what scared them quickly and that's part of the reason it takes them so long to get over their fears. (Of course, I'm paraphrasing greatly there.)
> 
> Do you all feel that's a fair assessment of your dogs?



Yeah, that's a pretty fair assessment of Wally. Then add on top of that a breed noted for his intelligence/ability to learn and it's twice as bad. 

Fortunately, he also learns just how much "fear leeway" I'll give him. If something first scares him, okay, fine, I'll give him that. If he keeps trying to run from that chair - uh, no buddy, you need to get over it. I believe that's the book that also mentioned that you'll have to learn the difference between real fear and "fear habit" (i.e. the body reacts is if he's afraid because it's habit, kinda like muscle memory).

Just like if we're outside, something can scare him and I'll give him a little room to "jump" or startle. But if he tries to do his "walking run" then I'll stop him. Now he'll get a little out of position from the initial "scare" but otherwise not try to beat me to the next intersection in hopes of trying to "get away".

So it's definitely a blessing and a curse. I try to take the blessing to manage the curse.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

The party went great. There were about 10 people there, and Jonas hardly let out more than a few barks when they came in. He took treats and eventually just fell asleep in his tent. 

We went to woofstock, also, and that went great. Jonas showed some dog aggression (though, I'm hesitant to call it that. he was just barking at the first few that approached.) which was surprising. But, a strange lady offered him water from a bowl in her hand and he DRANK IT. I bought him a bully stick. I never give those to the dogs, but he was just so good he deserved it.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Yay for Jonas! That's so wonderful! Don't you love it when these little guys pleasantly surprise us?

Mayzie surprised me yesterday. I was sure after the infamous table incident that she would be too scared to go in the bedroom last night. But nope! When it was bedtime, she trotted right into the room and jumped up on the bed like nothing had happened. I can't tell you how different that reaction is than when she first came to live with us 4 months ago. Progress!

KBLover - I completely believe that much of Mayzie's fear is out of habit. And once she gets into the habit of NOT being afraid of something, it's kind of amazing to watch. I love hearing all your Wally stories. How old was he when you adopted him? Do you know anything about his past?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> KBLover - I completely believe that much of Mayzie's fear is out of habit. And once she gets into the habit of NOT being afraid of something, it's kind of amazing to watch. I love hearing all your Wally stories. How old was he when you adopted him? Do you know anything about his past?


Yep, I know the feeling. He used to hate the green cable boxes and panels on the ground. Once I didn't accept his fearful reaction and then rewarded him for touching it (I LOVE THE TOUCH CUE! Ahem...) then he started going over on his own and sniffing them up and down. For the panels - now he'll walk on them like it's nothing. I know it's not the classic desensitization method, but I find I get more results out of him by simply rejecting his fear response and requiring him to act towards the object in a way I want him to. The classic way just told him I'll accept him being 10 feet from something and he stayed in a 10' radius of whatever. Not gonna work. 

Wally was just over a year old (his birthday is in late May 2007, and my mom got him in early July last year). I say my mom got him because technically, he's her dog, but I spend a lot of time with him too so I say he's mine 

I don't know a lot of details about his past history. My mom's friend (the one that gave Wally to her) kept saying how he needed a good home and felt sorry for him. We never got any more detail than that, but mom said her friend kept asking "When can you take Wally? When can you take Wally?" 

From this I gather he was either being badly treated or badly neglected or both. His coat was so much of a mess he almost had to be taken to the vet to get shaved. The groomer saw where we were trying to fix it and come it out, and that might have saved him from that fate. Still, the poor dog had cuts/injuries on him from the shaving and his ear tips took a very long time to heal. Fortunately, between feeding him well and being taught how to groom him well, his coat grew back nicely and even the groomer that shaved him was shocked how fast his hair grew back!

Judging by his fears, I'm guessing he was woefully under-socialized and once his mother left (Wally's mom is owned by my mom's friend) Wally fell apart. Running around like a maniac. So scared he left poop behind (couldn't control his bowels). When I got to him and tried to settle him down - he lied down peed (now I know that's called submissive peeing). He looked like he was trying to sink into the floor 

He may have also been hit as anything in my hand set him off. While this could have just been the socialization problem, it's a possibility I can't shake. 

Basically, the only two things I saw that went right is that he was potty-trained and he loves crates, so I didn't have to crate train or make it a "happy place". 

One thing about Wally I love is he will bounce back. May well be because of his hard "childhood", but even when he's shook up, he'll settle down a lot faster now. I don't know if I have anything to do with that or if it's just him growing into adulthood, but I'm thankful for it.


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## lexilu (Jun 26, 2008)

Just came back from a walk with Lexi - and I think I may be contributing to her fear. While walking in our development just before - we are using a retractable leash - each time a truck or car comes by, I retract the leash. I'm wondering if this shortening of the leash is telling her "Uh Oh - mom's scared of this so I should be too" thought. I noticed when I see the neighbors, I don't shorten the length, and Lexi is more than happy to say hello to them. I'm going to try her regular 6' leash tonight, but there won't be any UPS trucks around by then.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

It could be or otherwise she doesn't like the retraction feeling (when the leash pulls back) and might be associating the two events, especially if consistently you'll do the retraction.

I would try the regular leash for your walks, especially when the traffic is out, and see if there's a change or a pattern in her behavior. Try not to "imitate" the retraction by pulling or tensing up on the regular leash.


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## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

Consider that Frankie was a ex-puppy miller that was used for breeding the disgust of the a human being that took a dog soul and crash it for many years. He is highly fearful and skittish to most things. Lets see if I can make a list 

1) Fearful of walking on title floors 
I had threw treats to encourage him to walk step by step on the floor and one step back wards did wonders

2) Fearful of Strangers
I have given the family member treats and to give him treats and lots of pets to ensure not to be afraid of humans

3) Stairs
I think due to his vision he cannot see the stairs to well. And afraid to fall, I'd put treats on the steps also put one paw up to step then other

4) Scared of Loud/Sudden Noises
Ignore it. Not make a big ordeal over it

5) Someone Clapping
Again, I'd ignore it

6) Gets startled when a toy hits on his butt or something on his side
I show him that it's toy wants to play then he okay

Theirs more that I cannot think off hand or at moment that he is afraid of. He is trying to be confident with himself everyday it's a task that he needs to over come his fears for number of things


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sorry I've been suspiciously absent from this thread. As many of you know I'm having post-4th of July problems with Marge. Waiting to hear back from the vet, he is going to call me and discuss melatonin; if he doesn't think that's a viable option, we'll look into other things.

Right now we literally can't walk outside at all, MAYBE in the field across the street at certain times of day, but not much more. Been feeding her parts of her meals outside, c/t'ing for the Look at That game or giving me eye contact, whichever she prefers to do. Going okay, I guess. CC/DS might not cut it in this case, though, because there are simply too many stimuli at any given point.

I think it's safe to say that I'm going to have a Summer Marge, and a Winter Marge. I like the Winter Marge a whole lot more. I would not be opposed to a seasonal drug plan. 2 months on meds for Marge would be just fine for both of our sanities.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Sorry to hear that about Marge 

Was it the fireworks that made her regress so far? If so, maybe she just needs more time. Three weeks sounds like a long time to us, but if she's become fearful of the areas where she heard the fireworks, it could take time before she feels like it's okay. 

Otherwise, I hope you can find some kind of solution to help Marge and yourself find some peace.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't think it was the fireworks initially. She got thru the 4th in one piece, and if the damned fireworks would have ended that night, she'd likely be okay right now. 

Some %$#%@$%@ kid came to the curb on our of our morning walks a few days after the 4th and slammed a boot HARD against the ground. Not sure wth he was trying to do, but I think he was mad at his brother or something. Well, of course he had to do this just as we were going by, and she freaked. That was the first thing.

After that, we had some nights of fireworks, some days of construction, and some other stuff, so the streets became an evil place to walk. Sadly it has now generalized a bit more to include some other loud noises and even people/dogs to some degree, which means even walking in the field is hard.

She's shown some improvement in that she's not nearly as flighty - shutdown the past couple of days when something scares her and bounces back a little easier, but still is not at all close to the condition that she used to be in, nor is she good enough to just ignore the symptoms until the craziness of summer dies down.

However, she is still okay, as far as I know, at parks and at agility class, so I'm going to hope and pray it remains that way while we go through this.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Some %$#%@$%@ kid came to the curb on our of our morning walks a few days after the 4th and slammed a boot HARD against the ground. Not sure wth he was trying to do, but I think he was mad at his brother or something. Well, of course he had to do this just as we were going by, and she freaked. That was the first thing.


I'm starting to think kids are the biggest enemy to the stability of fearful dogs. They do...stuff...that seems odd even by human standards so the dogs just don't know what to do with it. 

Never mind their tendency to be too loud and move crazily.




MissMutt said:


> After that, we had some nights of fireworks, some days of construction, and some other stuff, so the streets became an evil place to walk. Sadly it has now generalized a bit more to include some other loud noises and even people/dogs to some degree, which means even walking in the field is hard.


Ugh. Always hate days like that. More odd objects making loud noises and strange smells everywhere. 


Glad that she's okay, but she'll still have her classes/activities to give her some refuge from it all.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sad thing was, this was an older kid.. hes like 16 or 17. My dog has more impulse control than him..  

Sometimes I really wish I lived in the middle of nowhere...NYC + Fearful Dog is a liiiittle tricky.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KBLover - Thanks for sharing Wally's background. I had no idea he used to be SO fearful. It's amazing how far he's come in such a short period of time. How lucky he is to have you!

MissMutt - Oy! I can't even imagine living in NYC with Mayzie. We've been slowly taking her to some public places around here (restaurant patios, etc.) and even though she's getting better, she is still very cautious and hides under benches, tables, etc., pretty much any chance she gets. We're pretty lucky in that she's not terribly noise-sensitive so we got through the 4th without any problems. But new places and especially busy places, scare her. NYC would probably make her head explode. Ha!

Hang in there! You've come so far and as we all know, setbacks are just part of the ride...as frustrating and heartbreaking as they are.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Given Wally's personality, I kinda wish I was in a bigger city. More of the things he gets spooked by would be around, and while that might set him off - it could also make for consistent exposure while we do our "usual thing". 

I imagine him getting to where he is now with adults and "bigger kids" faster from having soooo many opportunities to train the response I want. 

Living in a noisier community might would have helped with that since sounds are going on all the time (the house is quiet usually, except for TV, sometimes music, and my computer games which he learned fast to mean "I'm not getting any attention for a while, might as well go catch a nap".

Then again, it might would have made my training efforts 10x harder - never know.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I got Hallie when she was a tiny 6 weeks old. What can happen in six weeks? Who knows. I actually picked her out because she was the only friendly puppy and I could tell she was one of the ones that needed out. She's from a puppy mill. Puppy mill dogs are often fearful but I guess I thought since she was a puppy we could socialize her. The first 2 months she wasn't really allowed out of confinment, she had a severe GI tract infection and was extremely vulnerable to diseases with a very weak immune system. I still took her places, she met my family and even a few other dogs. I don't really remember the first 'episode' but I can remember the time that made me think I potentially had a very fearful dog on my hands. Hallie was about 5 months old and we were walking our usual walk-around a few stores and straight to the local pet store and the wind blew a trash bag. She would NOT pass that trash bag it was kind of in an alley so we couldn't exactly walk around it. She just wouldn't budge. She got the 'big eyes', put her ears back, and locked her body...she wasn't going anywhere. I ended up having to pick her up, then I let her have an opportunity to sniff the trash bag and she just wanted to run. She hates men and boys. She's okay with my cousin, dad, and was okay with a really close friend and they're all men. Actually that dog would run 400 mph with her tail going just as fast if she saw my dad, she loves him! I guess all of the sudden at 6 months it hit. I really blame myself even though I did try to socialize her when she was little despite her illness. About a month ago she got so scared of my cousin's friend that she urinated all over me and herself. It's awful to see your dog at the point where nothing will bring her out of her fear, where she would even run from you! But we had a MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH the other day! The same guy was walking through the house and of course we he came through the door she started her usual barking I asked him not to approach her and once his back was facing her she ran up and sniffed him then ran back to me. He came back through and was really slow and quiet and indirect and BINGO! She ran up to him wagging her tail and even let him pet her and even tried to follow him when he left. I had almost lost all hope with the men thing with her until this! I really want her to get her CGC and it looks like with tons of patience, practice, and of course treats it may be possible.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

New shocker. Jonas is showing dog aggression. Never happened before. He shows interest in dogs for a moment, sniffs, and ignores them. The last three walks or so we've encountered other dogs, and he's starting going bonkers, hackles raised and every thing. It's like, when I finally have him figured out, he throws me for a loop.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'd be willing to bet it's reactivity. He's afraid and trying to scare 'em off.. not looking for blood, just looking to feel safe.

Use the Look at That! game. Really. It does wonders.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LOL. I'm already prepared. If we see dogs now, we move away, I kneel down and babble "Oh, wiener man, look at that dog." and give him treats if he stays calm. Even more praise if he approaches the dog on his own. I'm just completely surprised by it. Well, I COULD maybe trace it back, even though it doesn't make a difference. A couple weeks ago we met a Husky, and in her excitement she leaped into my face and smashed me in the eye. I yelled in pain and then Jonas went crazy at the dog. I think now he's guarding ME, not himself. He is possessive and does not like any one to mess with his mom.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Oh, wiener man, look at that dog."










Love it!

We've been playing LAT every single day. After a bad morning, Marge had a mostly good day today for a change, and we're going to start a melatonin regimen either Sunday or Monday so we'll see how much it helps. If not, time for meds. Need to get this dog back on track!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> LOL. I'm already prepared. If we see dogs now, we move away, I kneel down and babble "Oh, wiener man, look at that dog." and give him treats if he stays calm.


My weakness as a handler - I can't bring myself to do this LOL


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

*bangs head on brick wall*

Fireworks. 12 noon on a Sunday. One lone pop. Why? Why? Why? Spoiled our walk completely.. there is NO time of day that's safe to walk for us!

Starting the melatonin tonight or tomorrow. I'm not going to be around much today and I want to watch her just to see how she reacts to it.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Sorry to hear that MissMutt. : ( It's the end of July and people are like, _"Oh, I found a firecracker. Let's shoot it off."_ Why? Why only one? Just dispose of it! **Sheesh**

Good luck on the Melatonin and of course, let us know how she does.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> My weakness as a handler - I can't bring myself to do this LOL


I'm willing to go to extensive lengths and embarrass myself to keep him calm, LOL. He really likes high pitches noises. I'm talking dancing around and smiling the minute I start singing or talking stupid. And, this is the worst, for some absurd reason he gets SO excited when I say "Are you my little.. hot pocket? My little meat man? My tiny little meat pie!" so if he gets uppity in public, I start in on that and he's back to happy in a second.

There is a softly lit, padded room with no windows waiting for me somewhere.



MissMutt said:


> *bangs head on brick wall*
> 
> Fireworks. 12 noon on a Sunday. One lone pop. Why? Why? Why? Spoiled our walk completely.. there is NO time of day that's safe to walk for us!
> 
> Starting the melatonin tonight or tomorrow. I'm not going to be around much today and I want to watch her just to see how she reacts to it.


We got screwed out of our walking route today, too. There is a short little square I can walk Jonas around the neighborhood, so he gets a good walk where I don't end up carrying him, but RIGHT on the corner there is a extremely reactive Pit (He has tried to attack Jack, but I don't know if he's just reactive or DA but I'm not willing to find out) that is ALWAYS outside. I rounded the corner not knowing he was there and he charged the fence going crazy and scared the crap out of Jonas.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> . I rounded the corner not knowing he was there and he charged the fence going crazy and scared the crap out of Jonas.


Wow 

I have to watch Wally in those situations too, but for the opposite reason. A dog behind a fence barking makes him want to go to the fence and give it right back.

Sometimes, he'll even try to START the interaction.

When I try to be silly with Wally, I think he knows it's too far out of character, so he's just waves his ears around trying to figure out what I'm doing.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Wow
> 
> I have to watch Wally in those situations too, but for the opposite reason. A dog behind a fence barking makes him want to go to the fence and give it right back.
> 
> ...


Smalls (surprising, considering how reactive she is) ignores him, and I don't even take Jonas that way anymore. Jack went right back at him. The dog was practically coming over the 4 foot tall fence when we came by. If we cross the street, it aggravates the situation and makes the dog go even more crazy. I'm going to call animal control. I don't think it's fair we can't even walk in our neighborhood. I have no idea if this dog is aggressive or not, but like I said, I'm not willing to find out. 

Jonas is just.. a strange little man. I'm glad he's so easily entertained by my babble.


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## lexilu (Jun 26, 2008)

Went to the library this weekend looking for books on CC, so I can start working with Lexi on getting over some of her issues. Using my own common sense, I know I can help her improve somewhat but probably she will never be the totally confident fearless pup she started out as. (and other than poor breeding, I have no clue why she is afraid of her shadow). Luckily she loves people and dogs - it's mostly loud noises and things out of place that freak her. ... anyway - took two books out, and after the first few chapters of the first one, am wondering WTH? ... This guy believes that a high protein diet is cause for aggression and fear in a dog. That a diet high in carbs relaxes them. I guess the idea is the same as when we eat a large plate of pasta we get sleepy. OK - that's not the diet I want for myself or my dogs, but... it did make me think. This writer/trainer/expert cites a study paid for by a large dog food company that uses ingredients that I dont use- and since it's a paid study, for me there is a conflict of interest right there. But out of curiosity, has anyone with a fearful dog, tested diet reactions? Maybe I'm looking for excuses or I'm looking for a magic pill to help Lexi overcome her fears, when in reality it will just be a never ending work in progress to get her where she should be. Thank you for listening to me rant.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey everyone, just checking in 'cause I haven't been around in a while. Nothing too eventful has been happening around here with Brenna lately. We've been really busy this summer, so I haven't had many chances to take her new places lately. I'm hopeful that this fall we'll be able to go on more "field trips." 

We did take her (and the cats) to the vet a couple weeks ago. They were having one of those big festivals when you can get a discount on all the vaccines and nail trims and such...which meant, of course, that the everybody in the county seemed to be there with their crazy dogs! It was a bit stressful for all of us, but since we had the cats, at least we were able to go inside with Brenna and be in a quieter, less chaotic environment for most of the time. We did have to go back outside for the nail trim, which was not fun for Brenna at all, but that was the last thing we did before packing everybody in the car and heading home. I was actually very proud of Brenna, because aside from pulling on the leash when we were outside because she wanted to go back to the car, she really behaived much more calmly than alot of the dogs we saw. I'm guessing that many of them were just overstimulated by all the other doggies and wanted to play with everyone. There were alot of others that seemed a bit reactive, but again, there were so many dogs and people everywhere, that I probably would have acted crazy, too, if I were a dog! Once we were inside, Brenna just wanted to thoroughly inspect her little area of the waiting room, and eventually laid down to watch all the action. 

This weekend will be interesting, too, because our inlaws are coming for a couple days...and bringing their two doxies with them. It was only a month ago when we stayed with them, so I'm sure the doggies will all remember each other. Hopefully Mitzi and Fritzi will not be quite so scared/excited about Brenna this time. I'm planning to have her outside when they arrive so that they can make their re-introductions there. I'm actually more worried about the cats...I'm going to have to confine them mostly to their room for two days because Mitzi and Fritzi have never even seen a cat before! I don't want to set the cats back in their interaction with Brenna, because they have come such a long way. So I think we are going to try our level best to keep them and the doxies separate. I'll let you know how it all pans out next week!


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

My dog has never had any fear issues at all through his life. He came from a reputable breeder, and he was very well socialized with crowds, at dog shows, in classes, in busy cities, and so forth. However, as he ages, he is somewhat bothered by thunder storms and fire works, though not always, only occasionally. It storms violently here almost daily, and the majority of the time, he doesn't care. He also doesn't care if we are outside walking, driving around, or some place new and interesting. I'm assuming it's just an old age quirk. He certainly doesn't panic or anything, but he will stare at me and sometimes pant or tremble a bit (two things he never does unless deeply distressed or, in the case of panting, extremely hot). 

I have, however, fostered and rehabilitated dogs that were basket cases. The ones I am most proud of were the literally feral, untame Salukis I spent over a year turning into passable pets. They still don't care to be handled by anyone other than myself and their new owners and a few close friends, but they can walk anywhere comfortably, and they're sweet and loving. When I first rescued them, they would leap up and tear out of the room if I even shifted positions on the sofa! I couldn't let them outside without long lines dragging, or I'd never have been able to catch them or get them back inside the house (and they wouldn't walk on a leash- they'd hit the end of it and flip around and scream). It was awful.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

CocoaCream - sounds like Brenda is doing well. Can't wait to hear about her latest adventures out and about.  Marge probably would have freaked out at such an event. I had her to the point where she would have been okay but this summer has been rough on her.

FH - always an experience with the scaredy dogs, eh? I've pretty much decided that my next dog should be a puppy - even though I do NOT want to go through housebreaking and basic puppy training, I NEED my next dog to be bombproof. I love Marge to bits but there are so many things I want to do in the dog world that she may never be able to do. And that's ok, her needs must come first, but next time around it'd be nice to not have to worry so much.

Marge has been on a small dose of Melatonin daily. I haven't been giving it to her on a set schedule, but instead only the times where I intend to take her out or take her someplace. Her highest dose was 3 mg on Tuesday. Every other day has been 1.5 mg I believe.

It helped get her through a rough patch of T-Storms on Wednesday.. she was so good I couldn't even believe it. Of course I had her playing my FEAST game, where I basically slide kibble across the floor everywhere, so she was occupied by that. 

She seems a little better around people, she went back to her "OMG I HAVE TO FLEE FROM EVERYONE" stage for a bit. Need to get her back out to the park and see how she is there. But it's just been so damn hot and humid.. we're not really walking for more than a half hour at a time.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Do you think the Melatonin could help my senior with the daily T storms? He just lays there, but I can tell they bother him some days, and I hate that. 

I take it every day or else I cannot sleep (which sucks with a baby- he sleeps 8 hours, and I NEED to sleep during that time. I think the pressure of "I need to sleep NOW" makes me unable to sleep! lol). I take two of them a day, and I think it helps some. I would like something stronger, though, so I am happy to hook my dog up! lol

Oh, and I am pet sitting this weekend for a cute little Yorkie/JRT/Beagle mix pup. He's a bit wary of my baby, but I almost beat that in a few minutes of hanging out with the dog last week, so I expect by the end of this weekend he'll be just fine. I am excited- I miss having oddles of doggies around


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

FoyerHawk - I know that a lot of people with noise-sensitive dogs have success with melatonin. Of course, there's the usual disclaimer of checking with your vet first, but I don't think there would be any harm giving it a try.

MissMutt - I'm SO happy that Marge seems to be heading back down the right path. Bless her heart. She's so lucky to have you. I know what you mean about getting a puppy next time. It has crossed my mind, too. But then I see the stories on the Fearful Dog list about getting puppies, seemingly doing everything right and ending up with a fearful dog anyway. That to me would be even harder than getting a dog that "came that way."I keep telling myself that there are lots of adult dogs out there without huge issues. But like you said, I'm awfully tempted by the idea of raising a dog to be the dog that I want it to be, rather than what someone else has made it to be.

As for us, I'm very excited! Mayzie has gone through a traditional basic obedience class, but I've been doing clicker training with her at home and it has just done wonders for her. So I started asking around and it turns out that there's an instructor here that is quite well known and respected in clicker training circles and from what I gathered, she has actually worked and trained with Karen Pryor! She has 3 pit bulls and runs a rescue here that mainly focuses on pits so she's very familiar with bully breeds. 

She asked us to bring Mayzie in so she could evaluate her and determine what the best class would be for her. Mayzie was shy but curious and wandered around the room cautiously checking everything out. Eventually, she went up to Lauren for petting. Lauren said that with shy dogs they usually suggest starting them in a wallflower class but she thought that Mayzie would probably be bored by the 3rd class so she said that we could start an intermediate class with her in August! I can't wait! I'm really looking forward to seeing what progress Mayzie makes in that environment.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Do you think the Melatonin could help my senior with the daily T storms? He just lays there, but I can tell they bother him some days, and I hate that.


I think it's worth a shot. I mean, I'm doing desensitization exersizes in addition to the Melatonin, but that's because she hides and sometimes shakes. For a dog who's only _sometimes_ afraid, I'd think a 1.5 to 3 milligram pop of Melatonin might do the trick. It doesn't knock them out, make them drowsy or anything. My dog had 3 mg in her system the other day and still had the energy to run around with pups at my grandmother's neighbor's house.

ColoradoSooner - that's great news. Maybe once I'm a member of my dog club (so the prices will be lower) I will consider putting Marge back into a beginner class just to bring her around dogs and people in a systematic way. Agility is fine because it's outside, but the higher level indoor classes (like Rally) stressed her out.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> MissMutt - I'm SO happy that Marge seems to be heading back down the right path. Bless her heart. She's so lucky to have you. I know what you mean about getting a puppy next time. It has crossed my mind, too. But then I see the stories on the Fearful Dog list about getting puppies, seemingly doing everything right and ending up with a fearful dog anyway. That to me would be even harder than getting a dog that "came that way."I keep telling myself that there are lots of adult dogs out there without huge issues. But like you said, I'm awfully tempted by the idea of raising a dog to be the dog that I want it to be, rather than what someone else has made it to be.


I go back and forth on this with myself. On one hand, I think like MissMutt did and wish I could have raised Wally as a pup and seen his more natural personality more and continue developing it from day one. Sometimes I'm feeling like I'm teaching him things he should have learned over a year ago with his social development and how to be more curious and confident. Not to mention teaching him how to learn/problem solve with more confidence instead of being scared of doing something wrong. When I see him display his problem solving and pattern recognition skills in action, those feelings get even stronger.

On the other hand, I think "if I thought like that, I wouldn't have helped Wally come so far." and then think what his life might have been like now. He might have been another statistic or one of those news stories where dogs are taken away because of extreme neglect. I mean if he's matted up and un(der)-socialized at one year old - what would it have been like with another year of that treatment, not to mention whatever else they might have done or subjected him to. Or if he'd been taken in, but I just gave him the minimum and not really tried to help him conquer his roadblocks, how much potential would I have wasted in the past year?

Not to mention all the things I was all but forced to learn about dogs since a fearful dog has less room for error combined with him being my first ever dog (so it's not like I even had a base of knowledge to work with from prior experience). So my own knowledge would likely not have progressed as fast, especially in the areas of learning and counter-conditioning. In a sense - him being the way he was (and still is to a degree) was good for the both of us as it made me a better handler which then helped me help him more and more.

It would be nice to be able to keep another puppy from turning into a Wally-at-one-year-old (or worse), but it is also nice to help a "teenage"/adult dog get on a better track for his own quality of life.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, it can always happen with a puppy, too.. happened to an acquaintance of mine.. 6 m/o Border Collie pup.. now 5 or 6 yrs old, takes high-ish doses of alprazolam to help keep her calm. (Of course, while doing behavior mod work). 

Sometimes things just don't go right somewhere along the lines.. one bad incident and everything can get screwed up. 

Marge started out awful, peaked in April, and has slided back down for a while now. She's pretty much stable now, in terms of how her temperament has changed. I know that, obviously, the firework/noise issue had alot to do with it, but I wonder if something changed in her brain as she matured as well. I have heard of this happening ALOT, and it seems to happen around age 2 as well.

At this point, I'll be happy if I can get Marge back to where she was a few months ago and be able to trial lightly in Agility. If I can get her that far, I'll feel like I was successful in rehabbing her. I know she's capable of more than what she's at right now.

I'm going to give her the rest of the summer. Melatonin on and off, behavior modification all the time. If, come September or October, she's still running at the sight of people and sent into shut-down state by noises that shouldn't bother her, meds here we come.


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## PetDogDepot (Jul 25, 2009)

Thanks for the opinions in the thread, very interesting information!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

lexilu said:


> anyway - took two books out, and after the first few chapters of the first one, am wondering WTH? ... This guy believes that a high protein diet is cause for aggression and fear in a dog. That a diet high in carbs relaxes them. I guess the idea is the same as when we eat a large plate of pasta we get sleepy. OK - that's not the diet I want for myself or my dogs, but... it did make me think. This writer/trainer/expert cites a study paid for by a large dog food company that uses ingredients that I dont use- and since it's a paid study, for me there is a conflict of interest right there. But out of curiosity, has anyone with a fearful dog, tested diet reactions?


First off, most research done is sponsored by food companies...the university researchers need funding from somewhere..this does not necessarily mean there is conflict of interest though I'm sure it occurs occasionally.

There is a whole chapter in Dr. Nicholas Dodman's latest book "The Well Adjusted Dog" about diet and behaviour links and a research study he did with Pedigree and two other universities. The study showed that protein levels did affect fear based and territorial aggression..not that they CAUSED it but that it did exacerbate the symptoms. The protein levels in the three diets used were 32 percent, 25 percent and 17 percent. 

You should check out the book...it's pretty interesting.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm growing tired of our neighborhood already. We've been working on tandem walks with all the dogs (Jonas is MUCH more at ease with Smalls around, and does not get spooked if she's walking next to him) and I thought with the amount of dogs around this was a dog friendly neighborhood. It seems to be, but certainly not respectful. Walking Jonas with Smalls is better for Jonas, but she is a crazy reactive dog. She was doing quite well recently (we were walking by people without so much as a tug, and when the pit charged the fenced and barked at her she didn't even LOOK at him) until yesterday we were out with every one and she spotted three people a few houses ahead of us. She started braying a little and pulling, so I put her in a sit and asked her to watch me for a moment before we kept walking, which normally does the trick. She calms, so we start to pass, UNTIL the guy across the streets starts whistling and clapping his hands yelling "Here puppy!! Puppy puppy puppy!" 

To make a long story short(er), she starts screeching and throwing herself at him, and he approaches her. I'm annoyed, but he doesn't know her deal, so I let him pet her after she's in a sit and politely explain we're working on ignoring people and please refrain from calling my dogs. Doesn't seem to acknowledge my comments, so we start walking away, and while we're leaving he reaches down and GRABS at Jonas, picking his butt up. Jonas starts barking, so I hand Smalls off to the boyfriend and pick him up to get away. The guy, in his wonderful effort in helping, starts clapping in Jonas' face and following me to do so. I was yelling at him to stop, but actually had to smack his arm out of his face and duck to get away! I'm an extremely confrontational person, but when it comes to the dogs we bolt from bad situations. Jack AND my boyfriend had to fill the role of big tough protector, and told the guy not to come near the dogs or me again. 

We are flipping our schedule and walking VERY early in the morning and LATE at night to avoid lunatics.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Ugh. I hate people like that. I was at the beach yesterday with Marge (very quiet beach near me) and some old, shirtless guy starts walking towards us, with all the waves I couldn't really hear exactly what he was saying, though I knew it had to do with my dog. So I mumbled "she's a Lab mix and she's afraid of people" and walked off. Little miss scaredy pants decided HE was a good person to try to go up to OF ALL PEOPLE LOL, but he looked like a weirdo so I did not allow it and called her to me. So I think he said something like "she's people friendly!" but I just repeated my previous statement and kept walking. He followed us about 500 ft down the beach.. very unsettling.. and then decided to sit on a log so we high tailed it out of there!

People are so disrespectful. That is just awful TWAB. I hope he gets bitten one day (not by your dogs!) when pulls this crap again.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Ugh. I hate people like that. I was at the beach yesterday with Marge (very quiet beach near me) and some old, shirtless guy starts walking towards us, with all the waves I couldn't really hear exactly what he was saying, though I knew it had to do with my dog. So I mumbled "she's a Lab mix and she's afraid of people" and walked off. Little miss scaredy pants decided HE was a good person to try to go up to OF ALL PEOPLE LOL, but he looked like a weirdo so I did not allow it and called her to me. So I think he said something like "she's people friendly!" but I just repeated my previous statement and kept walking. He followed us about 500 ft down the beach.. very unsettling.. and then decided to sit on a log so we high tailed it out of there!
> 
> People are so disrespectful. That is just awful TWAB. I hope he gets bitten one day (not by your dogs!) when pulls this crap again.


 What a creeper! I almost feel like as dog owners we wear giant signs on us that say "COME PET MY DOG!!" I obviously love me some dogs, and it is tempting to pet them, but I never approach people with dogs. If they are passing me, I will say hello and usually compliment the dog, but stand off to the side so they can pass, or stop if they wish. 

Hopefully if we pass this weirdo again, he will heed my boyfriend's request and STAY AWAY. I can scoop and run with Jonas, but Jack, despite his calm demeanor, does NOT like anyone coming at me, or his dog siblings. He was staying near my boyfriend during this event, but he had his head low and bared his teeth a few times. Hell, the few times dogs have rushed us he actually stepped over Jonas and kept him under his legs. He's a great judge of character.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, I don't go up to people's dogs, either, unless I know them but that's a whole different story. If I see someone with a dog that sparks my interest, I'll usually tell them what a pretty/cute/wellbehaved/etc animal they have. If they strike up a conversation, then I'll ask if I can pet the dog or whatever. There is nothing more obnoxious, IMO, than some loud-mouthed person running up like a blithering fool to someone who is working with or walking their dogs.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LOL and the walks just keep getting better. We went out at 9:30 tonight to avoid anyone and everyone, just for a nice walk. My boyfriend and Jack are behind Smalls, Jonas, and I when Jack starts sounding off. Turn around and there is some college age kid RUNNING straight at us while shouting "I HAVE TO PET THEM!!" I body blocked and shouted "NO YOU DON'T." and kept everyone moving. Smalls pulled back because she can't avoid a person to save her life, and he touched her. Jonas and Jack went nuts. You don't touch their girl after running up like that and despite their freaking out he just says "Well, one out of three isn't bad!" He definitely heard me say no, so I said "Get back NOW, ass****." We walked away while he was muttering about living in a college town and never seeing dogs. 

 I may have took my frustrations out on him a bit, but come on.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't think you took your frustrations out on him at all. What an ass! College kids can be among the worst.. and I am one of them. Of course I like to think I'm in the better half of them. The rest are so obnoxious, oblivious and outright disrespectful..


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Yesterday it is an older guy, and today it is a kid. We can't win with any age group in this neighborhood!  In any event, I told my boyfriend we're driving somewhere else to walk the dogs. We have a lot of great, really long trails around the area and even though it's inconvenient and unfair we have to drive and find a place to walk, it's better than this nonsense. I don't think we've had a good experience at all this week.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

We've pretty much had to do the same. With the exception of the field across the street from me, everywhere else is normal NYC busy suburb living. Car doors slamming, kids playing ball, dogs barking. In the summer, it's too much for Marge. We very frequently drive a couple blocks down to walk along the wooded trails leading up to the beach, and when the weather's nice we'll drive 20 minutes or so to several of the parks we have around here.

We actually had a little success today. I took her out on several short walks, and on one of them, SHE made the choice to go down a side street. She actually wanted to walk on the street rather than in the field. That's HUGE.. we didn't go far but she was fine while we walked. Even saw a person or two and didn't freak.

In the coming days I really want to post more about the game I've been playing with her, that, in addition to Look At That, is really changing her life IMO. It's not complicated, but I'd like to shoot a video of her playing just because of how darn happy she looks when we're doing it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Please do mention the game. I love games for training Wally. I believe games and play have a lot to teach dogs about the things we want them to learn and especially for fearful dogs as it's a completely non-threatening method.

I'm looking forward to this!

Lately, I've been trying to further Wally's ability to communicate his fear/fearful feelings to me instead of just trying to act on them.

I don't know how much can be done in this direction, given the way dogs work, but he usually would try to just run when coming up on something he doesn't like (say a weird looking object on the sidewalk), but instead he's just been stopping in his tracks (and pulling back on the leash a little if he's on-leash - hard to explain, but I can feel the difference in the tension). 

When he does that, I stop, praise him for pointing out something that might have hurt us. And then tell him "let's go" - meaning that everything is good, we can keep moving. He'll eyeball it but walk by calmly.

I figure it's giving him another way to show "I'm not so sure about this." While still acting under control and maintaining a link to me. 

One new thing I found he doesn't like is when people park their cars to that the bumpers are taking up half the sidewalk. (I hate that myself) He'll walk in a curve around it - guess he worries about it being that close to his head. He'll especially do this at night. 

He acts rather differently at night - do any of yours act differently at night? I always wondered why that is. He can be at ease in the daytime, but even a quiet night used to make him really nervous. At least now he'll be able to enjoy a quiet night but sounds/movement get his attention doubly so.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I was going to shoot a video, but Marge is too darn tired for our long and very hot romp on the beach this afternoon. 










This is only from my backyard and she was REALLY hot but, even then, you can see the intensity in her eyes when we're playing this game. I posted a thread about it a couple of weeks ago in the Training Forum and I've pretty much developed it into something that Marge finds alot of fun to do. I call it FEAST, because I needed a marker word for it and couldn't think of anything better, but for a more descriptive name, I guess you could call it Kibble Hockey.. 

This works well for Marge because she is *very drivey *underneath all that fear and LOVES to chase things. I have two variations of it.

*For thunderstorms/scary events where you can stay in one place*
Marge is positioned in front of me and I've got a pocketful of goodies. I have found that light colored treats work best but I use kibble often as well. I basically send treats flying at Marge, such that it entices her to get them, BUT it doesn't come easy.. because I send them fast and they wind up either hitting her paws and flying in another direction or passing through her legs so she has to turn around. This leads to a series of turns, jumps, and maneuvers to retreive the treat. In the case of thunderstorms, I usually play the game for the duration of the storm but give her several treats dropped right in front of her following the big booms (regular classical conditioning).

*For walks/scary things that must be worked through across a distance*
This game, as you can imagine, also keeps Marge moving forward. Of course, it won't work if the pressure is TOO great, but neither will anything else. Tossing kibble down the sidewalk a) makes the sidewalk a good place to be and b) exercises her mind and body as she goes to grab it. In this case, Marge obviously isn't in front of me, but usually in heel position, and then breaks position when I throw the treat and tell her to FEAST. 
I take her out in the field across the street and throw treats all around, especially when she's on her 20' lead. This is when light colored treats work best to contrast against the grass. I find that it brings her eyes, ears and nose down so she's less of the side-to-side-looking-all-over kind of dog and more of the low-headed-BC-staring-focused dog.

It works when we have to pass people (simply throwing the treat just as we're passing them), when we're walking near people but not quite right up to them (throwing treats both in the general direction and in other directions), or just as a fun game where I can't walk because it's too noisy out but still need a means to drain her energy.

The nice thing about it is that it doesn't destroy the dog's loose lead walking because I will usually pump her up, have her at heel and tell her readyyy, readdyyy.. FEAST and then throw the treat as a reward. It also isn't QUITE a lure, because you can walk along for a while with the dog knowing they're going to get the treat but it's not like they're running up timidly from 50 ft away.

So yeah.. it works for us. I'd say the main use is for thunderstorms but I've used it on every single one of our walks as well this week. It's nothing brilliant and I'm sure countless other people have thought up stuff like this, but it's working so well for us that I figured it's worth a shot. It's pretty much just counterconditioning with a special twist for an endorphin junkie like my pooch.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, that's a nice game. Sounds like a ton of fun!

LOL, Kibble Hockey. I love it 

I wonder if I can get Wally into moving around that much without me running around. He kinda chases things, but he'd rather chase me around LOL. THAT he gets way into - even growling at me when he runs up to me. 

Hmm...I'm going to have to think about it. He doesn't have that natural drive, but maybe I could "create" the drive some kind of way.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You could try it at dinnertime when he's hungry and will be looking for his kibble.

I imagine this is the kind of thing where some dogs will be like "meh" *walks slowly to eat piece of food* and others will be like "weeeeeeee" *runs like a lunatic to get the tiny piece of kibble*

I wonder if you could maybe adapt it into a target game with Wally - kinda like a recall, kinda like a target, but with more of an energetic twist. YOU'D set yourself up in front of him, and then call him to you like "C'mon! Get me!" and make it so that he MUST target a specific part of your body. Maybe a foot or a knee. If he likes you can make it more difficult by picking up your foot, etc and running backwards (hence chasing you)

Or maybe you can try having him run up to you and THEN tossing the treat. Maybe he'd need something more high value, like hot dogs or something.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I wonder if you could maybe adapt it into a target game with Wally - kinda like a recall, kinda like a target, but with more of an energetic twist. YOU'D set yourself up in front of him, and then call him to you like "C'mon! Get me!" and make it so that he MUST target a specific part of your body. Maybe a foot or a knee. If he likes you can make it more difficult by picking up your foot, etc and running backwards (hence chasing you)


Ah - that we do a lot of already. It's pretty much how I taught him recall (as well as stay until called). 

Though I like that twist with making myself a moving target. He'll love that. 
Thanks for mentioning that! I'll probably play this tonight when its cooler outside and it's between dinner and breakfast so he'll have some of an appetite.



MissMutt said:


> Or maybe you can try having him run up to you and THEN tossing the treat. Maybe he'd need something more high value, like hot dogs or something.


I like the idea of tossing the treat when he gets to me as well. Something like that would get him going too. I probably will end up doing something like holding it up and make him go from a run to a stand on 2 paws (another thing he loves to do), and bark or paw target while standing on his back legs on my hand.



Or maybe you can try having him run up to you and THEN tossing the treat. Maybe he'd need something more high value, like hot dogs or something.[/QUOTE]


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

*whine alert*

I had an awful night.. a family friend visiting our house today tells me I have "too many stupid rules" for Marge, that I can't leave her alone (actually the words he used were "you're constantly up her @ss"), and that he's had four dogs so he thinks he knows a little about them. Oh, he also called me crazy, and when I told him that my dog is different from most, he said, "so is it's owner."

 I feel like such a baby but I really feel awful. I don't even know why. I just feel like I'm under fire with regards to Marge more than I'd like to be. "She's fine," "leave her alone," "you just gotta push her through it," "she's gotta get used to it on her own." Because I don't have the results they want to see - a dog who loves everyone and isn't afraid - and I likely will never have those results, automatically everything else is null and void. The CGC doesn't mean jack, the agility classes, the rally classes, the beginner obedience classes, they all don't mean a thing.

Yep. I'm supposed to just sit back and watch my dog jump at every movement you make, cower from the fireworks (which we heard again tonight), and hide under the desk because that's where she feels safe. Yep. That's _just_ what I should do, I guess.

I just keep telling myself I need to be _her_ champion.. these people know nothing.. they shouldn't affect me.. I need to stay strong for her, if for no one else.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Well, you're right. Those people don't know anything and it would be a disservice to any dog to take their advice. I think the problem how some people view dogs. They're mans best friend, or just moving furniture. Dogs aren't fearful for no reason, and they need capable minds to help them through it. I can't imagine just sitting back and letting the problem go on. I took a lot of crap over the dog rules I tagged on with our party invites, but so what? If you can't respect my rules, even if you think they're stupid, then I'm glad you don't come over. They're not just for Jonas to be comfortable, they're for others to be comfortable, too. If he wasn't on the route he's on, he'd still be going ballistic with no end in sight on anyone that came over. And push them through it? I've gone over Jonas' threshold. You know what it got me? A nasty bite to the face and a severely set back dog that didn't trust me for a while. 

Thankfully, Marge is with someone who understands her.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I wish I could fast forward time and live in my own house. I wouldn't have to deal with any of these fools, who all happen to be my parents' friends. 

Their daughter, who we were not expecting and who came in a separate vehicle, decided to walk through the front door unannounced. If I hadn't grabbed Marge and brought her out into the backyard, I'm not really sure how she would have reacted. How rude is that, though? Show up to someone's house and don't even ring the bell? We NEVER leave the front door open, but just this one time it happened to be..

I just don't know how to convey to them that Marge is not your typical dog. I guess I really CAN'T convey that in any way. I feel like they make a mockery of the whole thing.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

One thing I don't have to worry about is stuff like that. My mom tells me to tell her what I do with Wally so she can do it too. I've already got her buying into the 30-second time limit on finding a spot to pee/poop and cutting out the "tidbits" of food when she cooks. 

You know your dog better than anyone else, Miss Mutt. If they don't get it - so be it. Like you said, they don't know anything so don't let them get to you, though I can understand the frustration - you're spinning your brain trying to help Marge and don't need "naysayers" piling on.

I know I can push Wally and require him to perform irregardless of how he feels. Marge and Jonas require more slow-paced/structured methods. There's some things I'll do that with Wally, it all depends on his reaction and if it's true fear or just an act/habit (i.e. he'll "act scared" but his body language/posture isn't fearful). 

Just tonight there was something near the sidewalk that was different. He didn't want to walk near it and ran into me, making me kick him in the side and almost trip. 

I basically made him walk next to whatever it was 40 times (literally) and he hated it the whole time. I didn't care, he's going to walk like a sane dog and he's not going to run into me and trip me or make me kick him. He is to be aware of me and his whole surroundings, not just whatever he doesn't like.

I tested it to see if he'd walk past. Nope, this time he tried to pull back. So another 40 times. Made him touch and walk past it, and touch some more, and walk past it some more - all in the most neutral-firm manner possible. No coaxing/cooing/treats. People would probably think I was being cruel to do it, but the result? He walked past it like a sane, normal dog, lose leash and at my pace and wasn't the least bit afraid/shaking/overly submissive as he walked past it. Tail "happy", ears relaxed, and a bouncy gait. He was just being stubborn and it was almost like he knew that's all he was doing.

I know he just tries to "get out of stuff" because he doesn't like it and puts on the fear act. He thinks I'll break out the click and treats or just let him slide. Sorry charlie, your puppy license ran out. I know the way to break that crap is to outstubborn him and require what I want and not be satisfied until I get it 100 times if need be. I'll defend him from the world, but that protection requires him to work with me as a team as well, and part of that is moving in sync with me. Doesn't have to be "heel" but he can't just run into me, etc. That's just going to get him hurt. I don't need to be kicking a 12 lb dog!

People would probably say I made a big deal out of nothing, etc. (Actually, I thought about that as I was doing it) I know him. Stuff he used to hate he now explores like a champ because I did that kind of routine with it. 

Basically, just do what works for your dog. You're doing right by Marge and you understand her and her needs. Don't let anyone's ideas sway you into feeling silly or in any way like you're not doing enough/right by Marge.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I really do believe Wally falls into that category of "run away because my muscle memory says so." Seems like its more habituated rather than the actual thought process of fear, if that makes sense. I know you've said this before and the more you post the more it makes sense.

"The game" actually got us through a rough spot on a walk today. We wandered up my block today just before her dinner rather than going in the field, and she saw a man working in his garden and was like ZOMG!!  Rather than run home, though, she actually clicked with me and played the kibble game. Did several repetitions, throw kibble, eat kibble, throw more kibble, and then walked home. 

Was fine afterwards... of course until the aforementioned visit, where she was visibly nervous. TOO nervous. One thing I will NEVER pressure her with is excessive attention/touch from people, especially in the house. So we chilled out in the same room for awhile, until I was essentially called a lunatic.. that's when I decided the basement would be a nicer place to be.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I know you've probably talked this through MissMutt, but I'd like to add that your situation is a lot like mine from my own family.

Recently, I started looking at dog-crates on craigslist... I'm contemplating getting one in the near future... I'm always endorsing crate training, and I'm always pushing other people to get one for their dogs, and then I'm looking at my dog going, _"You know what, I could do it... I could make him like crates..."_ I've never gotten a dog crate because I've been petrified of how it would make him feel... He came from an animal-shelter, (like most of you know), and I just feel like crap thinking he'd be miserable being forced into one...

Anyway- My step-mother's Pug puppy _loves_ the crate they have; It's a big crate, probably for like a Golden Retriever; They got it for Spot when he was a puppy back five years ago- Spot learned to love it and would go in there willingly 24/7 or whenever you told him too- The Pug puppy is turning out to do the same thing... Not only do I think that's cute and sweet, but I'm still real big on the fact that dogs should be desensitized to crates before they're kenneled or boarded- I believe it makes the process for _them_ go so much more smoother...

Sooooo... I mention in passing that I'm -_looking_- at some dog-crates and can find some for Donatello pretty cheap... My mother looks at me with the a curious and disgusted look on her face- _"Why in the Hell do you want a dog-crate for him..."_ I didn't even respond, I just kept browsing...

Whenever I decide to do something new or different with Donatello, she has to question me. It's like, wth? He's _my_ dog... Whenever I go somewhere and my family stays home, Donatello gets put in my bedroom. (His food, water, and toys are in there anyway.) He is not anyone else's responsibility, he's mine... But she will either question me, or give me this look like, _"Why are you doing that?"_ (She's questioned me like that as well.) I do it for more reasons then just one, too... Donatello doesn't care for my youngest sister, he doesn't trust her as far as he can throw her. But, _he_ is not to blame for that, _she_ is; Her reaction to him walking or running by has conditioned him to not like being close to her... I've gotten on her time and time again and it's done no good. By now, he is immune to her jumping out of his way, but the damage is already done... The other day she got in my face when I was sitting on the sofa and she started growling at me, Donatello didn't like it at all... He stood up beside me and growled at her back. I told her, _"See, you shouldn't treat me like crap because Donatello doesn't like it."_ Which is partially the truth. 

So I keep him in my bedroom to just keep the possibility of anything bad happening slim to none. Because, if I came home and found he was out, or found that he nipped someone, I wouldn't in the least feel bad... _"Well he was in my room to be left alone, you all were the idiots that went in there when I wasn't home!"_ (I probably wouldn't call anyone an idiot, but I'd say the rest in a heartbeat.)

There have also been times when I've told my mother that I'm going to muzzle Donatello, she's just about all but jumped down my throat for it. _"What are you going to do that for?"_ and I'm forced to reply, _"Well mother, he did snap at a girl before, and he's scared of what people might do to him... Until he gets over that I'm going to have to muzzle him."_ She took it, but looked as if she wished she could say more.

See, she's never had a "fearful" dog before, she says she had one as a child, but how in the world does that count? She didn't train the dog, she lived with the dog and played with him, but the dog wasn't trained by her or anyone, it was just left alone and left to live like any other normal dog... Well, like Marge, Donatello isn't normal... He needs rules, he needs discipline, he needs me to guide him like his own mother would... So if that means muzzling him then so be it! He may not like having rules, but deep down in his subconscious, he feels better having them.

My mother also tried fighting me on the fact Donatello goes berserk around "Pit-Bulls". She told me, _"He does not."_  I said, _"Excuse me? You don't walk Donatello. You don't accompany us on walks. You don't go the parks, or the dog parks with us, how do you know he doesn't?"_ She just stuttered a little bit and then just walked off.

I know her, and my sisters both, think I'm too hard on Donatello. I make him exert self-control, and that's amounts to a lot of my commands over him... I make him wait for almost everything. I make him lay down where he's at until I call him over... I make him wait before jumping on the sofa, and I make him wait before running back to my room at night... They roll their eyes at me, or if I say something about what I'm doing or I plan to do, my mother scoffs at me.

I have though, been told by _strangers_ that I'm "too hard" on Donatello... I was talking with a group of people at the dog-park and we were discussing how our dogs behave at home. One woman described her dog as a "maniac", a "thief", a "hoodlum" and a dog with "ADD"... I was mad, sad, and shocked all at the same time; Knowing what I know, there's no excuse to just let a dog run rampant. But everyone else laughed at her description, chuckled and said, _"He's just too adorable for anything else."_  Excuse me? So if Hitler was adorable like a 6 week old puppy, the Holocaust would have been looked at as "cute"?? 

So I chimed in and started describing what I do with Donatello. How he gets one meal a day, (the jaws dropped there and continued to fall farther south the more I continued.) I make him go through his list of tricks/commands at _least_ once a day, I make him wait to jump on the sofa, I make him wait to come to me at the door so we can go out, I make him lay down on the sofa if he's not going to do anything "productive", (He tends to just pace around, not restless, but ever since I taught "touch", he touches _everything_ now, at least once, and when I'm busy watching a movie with my sister it's distracting because then he'll come to me and "touch" my leg, or my foot, then stand at me and stare at me for no apparent reason.) I continued on and these people started staring at me with looks of anger on their faces. _"Geez, can't you just let the dog be a dog? Why the Hell does he need all those rules for? That's just confusing to a dog, he probably doesn't know if he's coming or going! And what's with making him *wait* all the time? That poor dog. What are you, a control freak?"_  I replied, _"Actually. I am. When it comes to things like animals, I am a "control-freak". If you don't control your dog, your dog winds up like that woman's and then you're always fighting with your dog to behave and be good for five minutes. No thanks... I need order and discipline in my life and from my animals as well."_ I also explained that Donatello is extremely intelligent, and all my rules do _not_ confuse him, but keep him occupied, he doesn't struggle with anything and he rarely if ever forgets. Self-control is good for dog that has the potential to be hyper-active...

I hate having to explain myself to strangers, but I really hate having to do it with my family more... I'm going to explain to my mother soon about the benefits of a dog-crate and see how she reacts... She's never used a dog-crate before, and her dogs frequently messed up the house or chewed on things they weren't supposed to when we left... Donatello doesn't do that now, and that's not the reason I want a crate.

Oh and what you said: 


MissMutt said:


> I just keep telling myself I need to be _her_ champion.. these people know nothing.. they shouldn't affect me.. I need to stay strong for her, if for no one else.


That's good, remember that, because I'm going to remember that for Donatello.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

I rehab dogs as a profession (so too many years of stories to tell) and so I would just comment on my perspective on the subject which is that I do not condition dogs not to have fear but rather how to/not react under such conditions. Sort of like conditioning a horse to spook in place. Fear can be a good thing especially when channeled properly. We all have fears that we may never extinguish but we can overcome extreme or undesired ways in which to react to those fears.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> *whine alert*
> 
> I had an awful night.. a family friend visiting our house today tells me I have "too many stupid rules" for Marge, that I can't leave her alone (actually the words he used were "you're constantly up her @ss"), and that he's had four dogs so he thinks he knows a little about them. Oh, he also called me crazy, and when I told him that my dog is different from most, he said, "so is it's owner."
> 
> I feel like such a baby but I really feel awful. I don't even know why. I just feel like I'm under fire with regards to Marge more than I'd like to be. "She's fine," "leave her alone," "you just gotta push her through it," "she's gotta get used to it on her own." Because I don't have the results they want to see - a dog who loves everyone and isn't afraid - and I likely will never have those results, automatically everything else is null and void. The CGC doesn't mean jack, the agility classes, the rally classes, the beginner obedience classes, they all don't mean a thing.


I feel your pain, MissMutt. Some people truly don't understand why we put so much time and effort into our dogs. Heck, sometimes even *I* wonder why DH and I are so worried about Mayzie's "issues." I mean, afterall, she's just a dog, right? 

But see, to us, she's not just a dog. She's a member of our family. When we decided to bring her home, we made a promise to her to do everything we could to help her live a happy, healthy, well-adjusted life. It was an unspoken promise - but it was a promise all the same - and that promise is sacred.

I can't tell you how many times Cesar Milan has been recommended to me. Just flood her, show her that you're the alpha, be calm assertive - and everything will magically turn around overnight. People who have never really had to deal with a fearful dog on a daily basis are full of advice but have no real experience in making it happen. They watch an tv show and think they're the experts. It's annoying as crap.

It's easier said than done, but just ignore the "experts." You know in your heart that what you're doing is the right thing for Marge. Just look at how far you've come and how much you've accomplished. Yes, you're dealing with some setbacks right now. But even with that, she's light years beyond where she was when you first got her. So you obviously must be doing something right.

Hang in there and give Marge some extra pets from all of us!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sparkle said:


> I rehab dogs as a profession (so too many years of stories to tell) and so I would just comment on my perspective on the subject which is that I do not condition dogs not to have fear but rather how to/not react under such conditions. Sort of like conditioning a horse to spook in place. Fear can be a good thing especially when channeled properly. We all have fears that we may never extinguish but we can overcome extreme or undesired ways in which to react to those fears.


Pretty much my approach too. Try to teach him how to respond when truly afraid and how to keep his wits about himself so things to get overly chaotic.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hm. I just had awesome success on a walk last night using wet food as a reward. Guess it's higher value than the boring crunchy treats.

How do you guys deal with using high value rewards? My fear is that if I use it too much, it will lose its effect.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Alright guys... My turn to "vent"... 

((WHINE ALERT)) 

This morning I woke up to Donatello scrambling over me, jumping off the bed and trying to squeeze under my nightstand... He was spooked out of his mind. I checked my watch it was 7:48 in the morning... This has _never_ happened before. Ever.

It took me a couple minutes to coax him out from under my nightstand, where he then tried crawling under my bed... Finally he jumped back up on the bed with me, shivering his brains out!

Needless to say it was not the perfect way to start off the day... He hasn't done something like this in about a month... I was very frustrated and I was doing my best not to be short with him... But it pissed me right off...

I'm a very light sleeper, so whatever it was that "scared" him should have directly woken me up... But instead I woke up him to scrambling over my limp body like there was a war-zone going on outside our window...

I finally got up, I leashed him to the door, (like I do when I teach new tricks). He laid down, and watched me go about my routine... Then I left the room and decided to take a quick shower, I needed to wash off the negative energy he created... I go back in the room and he's fine... Perfect. Like nothing happened. He looked at me like, _"Hey, there you are. Where've you been?"_ So I unleashed him and he was just as happy and chipper like any morning...  Most definitely...

Anyway... My bigger complaint... Next April, my grandmother is coming to live with us... If her dog is still alive by then, she's bringing her... We'll finally be able to move into a bigger a place... But still... I don't know how I'm going to handle it... Donatello and her dog weren't exactly friends when we went down there for a visit. 

I was able to convince my mother that a dog-crate is a good idea for Donatello... But I shouldn't have to convince anyone, he's my dog and regardless he's going to be crated if I want him to be... Anyway... I'm looking for a dog-crate... I'm dreading April...

My grandmother is not going to like how I handle Donatello, and I already get enough dirty looks, and mumbled words tossed at me for the way I handle him... I don't need anymore...

Support?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Get a crate and get a lock for your room. Tell them that no one is to bother Donatello unless there is an emergency. You'll have to just say strong and ignore the naysayers.. it's easier said than done but it can be done

Listen, alot could change from now until April. Try not to worry about it too much. Think about it - Donnie could be a whole new dog by then. The other dog could not be in the picture. Your GRANDMOTHER herself could not be in the picture. It's almost a year away. You'll be okay. 

I know how you feel about getting short and frustrated.. I'm usually pretty good but sometimes I just get so flabbergasted as to why she'd be afraid of something. I've found that getting angry only makes it worse though. For both human and dog.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt - I try to save the really, really high value treats (steak, etc) for the stuff that scares Mayzie the most. And since I don't use them that often, they haven't lost their appeal. Even with the sort of high value treats (there's this dog food that comes in a tube that both of mine go nuts over), they are still interested in it, even though I've been using it fairly regularly for 4 months. But I try to mix things up, too. There's about 3 or 4 things that they both seem to love and sometimes I'll just use one of those things (cheese, for instance) or I'll throw 2 or 3 kinds in to take with us. That way, they never know what's coming.

Deege - I'm with you. There are times that I'm like, "MAYZIE! We have been through this before. Yesterday you were FINE with me moving the kitchen chair. Now it's some big scary monster that's going to eat you?" Argh! (Of course, I try to not let her see or feel my frustration but sometimes it's mighty difficult.) But the thing that keeps me going is just what happened to you this morning. Donatello was freaked out but calmed down and bounced back very quickly. I bet you wouldn't be able to say that a few months ago. Watching them slowly learn how to cope better and more quickly with the "big scary monsters" is quite a reward.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Get a crate and get a lock for your room. Tell them that no one is to bother Donatello unless there is an emergency. You'll have to just say strong and ignore the naysayers.. it's easier said than done but it can be done
> 
> Listen, alot could change from now until April. Try not to worry about it too much. Think about it - Donnie could be a whole new dog by then. The other dog could not be in the picture. Your GRANDMOTHER herself could not be in the picture. It's almost a year away. You'll be okay.
> 
> I know how you feel about getting short and frustrated.. I'm usually pretty good but sometimes I just get so flabbergasted as to why she'd be afraid of something. I've found that getting angry only makes it worse though. For both human and dog.


Well, I'm getting a crate, but as for a lock for my room, I'm not sure if that's quite possible... I live with my mother, and she's very... What's the word I'm looking for... Controlling. She's the type of person that reminds you every day of your life that _she_ pays the bills... That _she_ is the one working... Yadda yadda yadda... I can only imagine the argument that erupt should I mention a lock for my room... She's the type of person to say, _"When you pay the rent you can put a lock on your door."_ 

However, I _am_ getting a crate, there are no two ways about it... What I plan to do, is put the crate in-front of the patio door, open the blinds so he can at least get some light, then put the cage door facing the patio-door; that way should someone come into my room, they won't be tempted to open the crate... It'll be more of a hassle, and it would probably keep Donatello calm as well...

Yeah, it is almost a year away... Who knows, I might suddenly meet someone who wishes for me to be a stay-at-home house-mom for Donatello. : ) He'll whisk me off to a big beautiful home with four rooms, one for my art, one for my books, one for Donatello, and the other for my miscellaneous pets.  lmao. I guess I'd need five... 

I'm trying not to worry about it so much... but I'm still dreading it... My grandmother has moved in and out of our lives for 20 years, (I'm 20.) and here she is doing it again, and my mother just lets her... But this time, she'll have no where else to go, her husband passed away last November... I know this sounds mean and terrible, but I wish something would come up for her, or for me, so I don't have to live here anymore... Am I terrible or what?? 



ColoradoSooner said:


> Deege - I'm with you. There are times that I'm like, "MAYZIE! We have been through this before. Yesterday you were FINE with me moving the kitchen chair. Now it's some big scary monster that's going to eat you?" Argh! (Of course, I try to not let her see or feel my frustration but sometimes it's mighty difficult.) But the thing that keeps me going is just what happened to you this morning. Donatello was freaked out but calmed down and bounced back very quickly. I bet you wouldn't be able to say that a few months ago. Watching them slowly learn how to cope better and more quickly with the "big scary monsters" is quite a reward.


Donatello's been so good these last few months, there's been hardly anything to report; Thus leaving nothing for me to get frustrated over... But waking up to _that_ this morning was the icing on top of the stress-cake... But, before I could do any lasting damage I took a five minute shower, then just as I started thinking about whether I should give him one of his Anti-Stress tablets I found that he was back to his normal too... 

I'm certainly aware of how quickly he bounces back... But I'm still aware that something could go wrong and we could have another lethal set-back...

I worry to much. I think.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You're not terrible Deege. I've said similar things when it's for my dog's benefit. I think it just comes with the territory of fearful dog ownership LOL. But people aren't going to go away simply because of us, as badly as we may want them to.

Believe me.. I wish the guy who lives a few doors down would disappear too.. Marge loses all self control when she sees him and goes into a rage of barking and lunging. I've said some nasty things to myself in regards to him. LOL

Come move to NY.. you and I can find a place and split the rent.. I think Marge and Don would like it 

Setbacks aren't lethal though! Remember the quote I posted? Success is not final, failure is not fatal, it is the courage to continue that counts! Just think of Marge..still a $#@[email protected]# wreck from the fireworks, but we're still kickin'.. it will be all right!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Deege - On a completely unrelated matter, that pic of Donatello in your signature line cracks me up everytime I look at it.



> I'm certainly aware of how quickly he bounces back... But I'm still aware that something could go wrong and we could have any lethal set-back...
> 
> I worry to much. I think.


I think every owner of a fearful dog lives in fear of that one event that will set them back permanently. Everytime Mayzie has a setback, I wonder if this is the big one, the one that she'll never recover from. And yet each time she seems to come back faster and stronger. (A bit like the bionic man...LOL) I know sometimes they don't bounce back quite as quickly, like Miss Marge recently. But we're all giving them a good foundation to build on which they never had before. And I think it would take something extremely traumatic to break down that foundation entirely.

You see...I have to tell you that so that I can remind myself of it the next time Mayzie has a setback. 

Also, I think you're doing a great thing by getting Donatello crate trained before your grandmother arrives. Here's something to consider. I've heard people say that you should just get it big enough for the dog to stand up and turn around in. Well, when we first got Ranger (our 20lb.) rat terrier, he hated his crate. And until we got Mayzie, he would only go in it at night with the help of a kong. Well, when we got Mayzie, her crate was much bigger...since she's much bigger. And he loves that thing. So we ended up getting him one that's the same size as hers and he's happy as a clam in there. (I personally think it's because he sees himself as a rottweiler and couldn't understand why we were squishing him into this itty bitty crate...LOL.) Obviously, you know Donatello so be sure to ask yourself which type of crate he would like better...small, medium or large.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

> Come move to NY.. you and I can find a place and split the rent.. I think Marge and Don would like it


Oh could we please, could we please??? 

I _love_ New York and consequently love Marge through the internet... It'd work for me, and whatever works for me seems to work for Donatello. lol... I think they could be best buds. 

But all kidding aside, I do hope to move out soon... It kills me being at home... I was out on my own; I moved to KY in 2007, and after a year and couple months I got my own place with my high-school sweetheart... Two weeks later his _parents_ kicked me out and with no where left to go I had to come back down here to Georgia... But, I did get this amazing dog for going through all that... I'd do it all again if I knew I'd have Donatello...

I give myself Hell for the way I act sometimes... I get very jealous over him, as if I'm 2 and not 20... I get jealous if I think Donatello will like someone more than me... I get jealous if it looks like Donatello gets happy seeing someone more than me... I don't know why, I can't explain it... I just love this dog _so_ much and have done so much to help him, that I get defensive if I think he doesn't love me back... I don't know... I can't explain it...



> Setbacks aren't lethal though! Remember the quote I posted? Success is not final, failure is not fatal, it is the courage to continue that counts! Just think of Marge..still a $#@[email protected]# wreck from the fireworks, but we're still kickin'.. it will be all right!


I do think of Marge a lot, and I actually have told my mother about Marge, mentioning to her that I think it's so strange Marge and Donatello seem to have the same "issue" [fear]... I do think of Marge a lot, but I seem to forget what you all have gone through when I'm going through something tough, I need to remember more often that you have went through Hell and back with Marge and you all are still tough as nails and still going. 



ColoradoSooner said:


> Deege - On a completely unrelated matter, that pic of Donatello in your signature line cracks me up everytime I look at it.
> 
> Also, I think you're doing a great thing by getting Donatello crate trained before your grandmother arrives. Here's something to consider. I've heard people say that you should just get it big enough for the dog to stand up and turn around in. Well, when we first got Ranger (our 20lb.) rat terrier, he hated his crate. And until we got Mayzie, he would only go in it at night with the help of a kong. Well, when we got Mayzie, her crate was much bigger...since she's much bigger. And he loves that thing. So we ended up getting him one that's the same size as hers and he's happy as a clam in there. (I personally think it's because he sees himself as a rottweiler and couldn't understand why we were squishing him into this itty bitty crate...LOL.) Obviously, you know Donatello so be sure to ask yourself which type of crate he would like better...small, medium or large.


I love that picture too, he looks like an evil _Gremlin_, lol... I didn't fix that green-eye 'cause I think it adds more mood and character to the picture... Makes him look menacing, but for those that know Donatello know that's completely untrue. lol.

I'm contemplating getting a crate that's for the size of a Golden Retriever. My step-mother has one for her dogs, one that Spot used, and he's the same size as Donatello, but their biggest dog Freckles could fit in it if she had too... I think he'd benefit from having it pretty big, packed with his favorite blankets and chew bones... 

I have from now until April to find a crate and train him to it... I actually don't think he'll have as big a problem with it as I used to think. He keeps trying to squeeze himself under my bed, which there is hardly a foot of crawl space under... He seemed to think he could find comfort from under there, so he should love the crate in due-time... If all goes well...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Still going, we are.. tough as nails? Not always.

I was ready to pretty much give up on everything with Marge yesterday. I have these plans for her to hopefully trial locally in agility one day, get her registered, have fun. We had an awful walk at the beach and I was just so disappointed in Marge (I shouldn't be), in myself, in just everything. I thought to myself, maybe she's not cut out for the life I want for her as an agility dog. But my boyfriend talked me out of it  

Then I had a breakthrough with the damn wet food and was all happy.. I swear I go back and forth so easily with this dog. Walks and agility are very separate in Marge's mind as of right now anyway, thank goodness.

But yeah.. I am SO easily affected by Marge's behavior that it's almost unhealthy. When she's good, I'm good.. when she's bad, I'm awful.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> But yeah.. I am SO easily affected by Marge's behavior that it's almost unhealthy. When she's good, I'm good.. when she's bad, I'm awful.


OMG...I'm SO happy to hear you say this. I feel EXACTLY the same way. It's just a roller coaster ride. The highs are fabulous and the lows really suck. Like you, I too sometimes feel that it's unhealthy how wrapped up I am in Mayzie's moods. If she has a setback, I worry and fret and actually find myself in a bad mood. But the thing is, I don't know how to turn that off. My hubby and I are getting to the point where, if it's a small fear that's sent her running off to her crate, we'll just laugh and say, "oh, that crazy Mayzie." But if something particularly stressful has happened, it's not so easy to do.

I also think sometimes her small fears are really magnified to me. I say that because when we first got Ranger, he was scared of certain things but as a whole, he was quite a balanced dog. So we just kind of brushed off those fears, did counter conditioning when possible (even though we really didn't know that's what we were doing at the time), and he has gotten over pretty much all of them, and those that he still has worry him MUCH less now.

I think sometimes that if Mayzie was just your normal dog, little things that scare her wouldn't worry me as much as they do. So I'm really making an effort to not "sweat the small stuff" - literally. It's tough, though!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, in the case of things I KNOW bother her, I don't get upset anymore. Like thunderstorms! Now that I've fixed up the game for us to play, we do well during them and its only during the loud booms that she'll try to hide.

Even in the case of the guy a few doors down from us. I know that if she sees him she's going to go nuts. It's something I really can't correct because we see him at such random times, with no regularity, and he doesn't listen to me when I tell him to not approach  So I'll be shaken right after, but then I'll go home and tell my boyfriend or sister, "Yep, she saw that guy again and had a fit.." and it's almost just a "oh, that silly dog..  " moment.

But when it's something really big, like shutting down on a walk or running away from neutral people, I get so upset and I really don't know how to turn it off. I worry like crazy, think the worst, and sometimes I think I just need to learn to _leave well enough alone_.. sometimes I try to correct it by going out on another walk thinking it'll be okay this time or try to coax her out of hiding so we can do something. I need to learn to turn the Marge switch off 

Something I have been learning to do is set boundaries for myself. For example if I'm trying to coach her through walking up the block, I'll say to myself, okay, we'll stop at THIS telephone pole today and go no more. Or if she has a good encounter with a person/dog/other scary thing, I say to myself OKAY, that's it for now. It makes me feel better because more often than not we wind up ending on a good note.

BTW.. great discussion here today guys.. I really freakin' love this thread.. it helps me SO much to talk to you guys about this stuff.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Deege - I'm with you. There are times that I'm like, "MAYZIE! We have been through this before. Yesterday you were FINE with me moving the kitchen chair. Now it's some big scary monster that's going to eat you?" Argh! (Of course, I try to not let her see or feel my frustration but sometimes it's mighty difficult.)


When Wally does that, I make him touch it, paw it, sit next to it and stay until released, then when I release him, I put him back where he was and in the same position (usually lying down waiting/resting) and do what I was doing before.

At first I got frustrated, then I said 'screw it' and just used OC on him even though he might be scared of it. 

Now if he is scared (which I don't think he is anymore) he'll at least not run across the room and risk getting himself (and/or me or my mom) hurt because he's panicking.



MissMutt said:


> But yeah.. I am SO easily affected by Marge's behavior that it's almost unhealthy. When she's good, I'm good.. when she's bad, I'm awful.


Interesting - I guess I'm the other way - even/neutral 80% of the time. 

The only time's I'm not is during play and training and then I am more upbeat/playful/excited with him. Or when he's done something seriously wrong or he's in his "Make me!" moods and then I get "firmer" with him. 

I would say I'm playful 15% of time, even/neutral 80% of the time, and upset/firm/corrective 5% of the time.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm lovin' this thread too... I can confess my darkest secrets here and not feel ashamed. 

I think breaking down our habits is a good idea... At least for me, it gives me an idea on what everyone works on the most...
I would say, I'm playful 10% of the time. 80% of the time I make sure he does what he's told, like have manners, be patient, and so on. 5% I'm watching his reactions to things... the last 5% of the time I'm sitting worrying over him. 

When it comes to my moods with him, I'm neutral for 90% of the time. 5% I'm evil, mean and bossy, even jealous and the last 5% I'm goofy.  lol.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> But when it's something really big, like shutting down on a walk or running away from neutral people, I get so upset and I really don't know how to turn it off. I worry like crazy, think the worst, and sometimes I think I just need to learn to _leave well enough alone_.. sometimes I try to correct it by going out on another walk thinking it'll be okay this time or try to coax her out of hiding so we can do something. I need to learn to turn the Marge switch off


I'm like that, but I don't believe in "well enough". I mean Wally now is probably "well enough", but I believe in continual improvement, even if any future progress is smaller than the first. I figure, the big stuff is out of the way, so now we can really get down to some training and interesting stuff. Like, "Hey Wally, you know how not to run away when scared, so let's go meet a stranger and practice your reacting calmly to him/her." 

Of course - it's not going to go smoothly, but I feel it's part of generalizing that "sit and calm down when I'm scared" behavior. Lately, he's gotten better and once the interaction starts, he's brilliant, it's just the initial meeting that still worries him some - or maybe it's the muscle memory thing again, who knows. Either way it's a "fault" that exists, and I feel can be corrected. I just need to figure out how and how to present that to him so he can understand it.

Some might say "well that's good enough. He doesn't nip, snap, or growl at adults or kids, so just take it and be happy." I guess I'm not the settling type! 



MissMutt said:


> Something I have been learning to do is set boundaries for myself. For example if I'm trying to coach her through walking up the block, I'll say to myself, okay, we'll stop at THIS telephone pole today and go no more. Or if she has a good encounter with a person/dog/other scary thing, I say to myself OKAY, that's it for now. It makes me feel better because more often than not we wind up ending on a good note.


I do that as well. Sometimes I cut a walk "short" if he's being perfect. 

I bring him in, let him rest for a little bit, then bring him back out. I want to let that perfect walk "process" (CU calls it 'latent learning') and then start a "new walk" right after. It's like the short-and-successful sessions method of training, but with walks as the "session." 

If he has a good encounter, he gets lots of praise/treats and we keep walking and I let him just roam and sniff as he wants to blow off any tension that might have built up from the effort as well as to let his mind settle and maybe more latent learning. Give him about a minute or two sniff-break and then we're on our way.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Oh dear, it sounds as if the last few days have been rather stressful and emotionally tense for many of you! I'm sorry to hear about so many people who are treating you guys negatively over the work that you are trying to do with your precious dogs. Thankfully, my hubby and I have understanding family and friends, and they don't pry into our personal lives like that. Let me encourage you all to keep on the course and to stick to your plan of action, regardless of the mindless criticism people may give you. You know your dog best, its background, its habits, its fears and its pleasures. Only you can decide what is in its best interest. You all are doing a great job, and I know I wouldn't have the stamina to handle the things that you've all had to handle. Brenna is a shy dog, but she is pretty easy-going other than that. I admire all of you for the work you've done, and the success you've had. And what's more, your dogs LOVE you for it!

By way of updates, Brenna had a great weekend with the family! Hubby's parents arrived late Saturday afternoon, along with their 2 little doxies, Fritzi and Mitzi. We had originally planned to have the reintroductions outside, but changed our minds and decided to let Bren stay inside while Fritzi and Mitzi got some of their wiggles out in the yard. When they arrived, I called Bren to the window so she could see them all as they walked around the yard with DH. She didn't bark at them, but was definitely at attention, so I petted her as she watched them and reassured her that it was alright. When everyone came in, Mom was the first to come to meet Brenna. She seemed to remember her, sniffed her hand and clothes and let Mom pet her some. She did the same when Dad came to greet her. When we let the doxies out of their gated area, Brenna and Fritzi quickly went right to introductions, but Mitzi was too afraid of Bren to come very close. (My inlaws' dogs don't really play with any other dogs or have any interaction with other dogs except for meeting them on walks, etc., so they tend to be a little unnerved by large dogs.) 

Shock of all shocks, as soon as introductions were finished, Brenna started wagging her tail and Fritzi and trying to get him to play with her! Mind you, we have never seen Bren actually wag her tail at anyone, ever...It was a priceless moment when we first saw her doing that. Then, even more wonderful, was watching her try to entice Fritzi into playing with her. Seeing her bounce around and toss her head, prancing, pouncing....I just couldn't stop smiling. She was so excited and so happy! It was like having a totally new dog, one without a care in the world! Too bad Fritzi was not sure how he could possibly play with a doggie so much bigger than him...but at least we know now that Brenna can play, even wants to play. If only we could show her that we want to play with her like that, too. Now I'm determined to start setting up some play dates for her with some doggie friends nearby so that she can be happy and enjoy the company of other dogs more often. The experience was almost enough to make hubby and I want another dog, just for Brenna's sake...but we can't realistically do that right now. 

Anyway, the visit was a great success for Brenna...not so much for the cats, who stayed in their rooms or hid under the recliner because every time the little dogs saw a cat, they barked up a storm. But I think they've recovered nicely from that little experience...and haven't changed their interaction with Brenna over it, either.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well thank you CocoaCream, your post brought tears to my eyes. : ( 

I feel bad for harping, and nagging about things that stress me out... I feel like a whiny, cry-baby. Heh. But at the same time, it feels good to be a whiny, cry-baby. 

I'm glad there are those out there that have the support of their family and friends... If only all families were like that... Sadly though, not mine... It's kind of like a curse... It's something that you can never fix, and with every generation the same traits are passed on. I only hope that I'll be the one to break the cycle.

Congratulations on Brenna's success... You're very lucky to have a dog like Brenna, it is hard work, every day with Donatello feels like a job... It feels like I'm at a job 24/7. I'm always battling with _something_ or someone... Maybe if I had my own place, where it was quiet, and stress-free... Maybe it wouldn't feel like that...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Good job, Brenna!

That's awesome - what a breakthrough! 

Great work, CocoaCream and Brenna!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I'm like that, but I don't believe in "well enough". I mean Wally now is probably "well enough", but I believe in continual improvement, even if any future progress is smaller than the first. I figure, the big stuff is out of the way, so now we can really get down to some training and interesting stuff. Like, "Hey Wally, you know how not to run away when scared, so let's go meet a stranger and practice your reacting calmly to him/her."


I meant "well enough" more in the context of one day. Like, "okay, that walk sucked, lets leave it alone for a while and go play agility in the backyard instead" rather than "that walk sucked, lets go out and do it again." Maybe it was the wrong phrase to use come to think of it. What I was trying to say is that if Marge and I had a bad walk or something, sometimes I think I'm too eager to go back out there and try to correct it. My dog _needs_ breaks in between or else her reaction intensifies.

CocoaCream, great news. Brenna really is improving in leaps and bounds, isn't she.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

CocoCream - that's so great! Isn't it wonderful when the shy part of our dogs goes MIA for awhile?



MissMutt said:


> What I was trying to say is that if Marge and I had a bad walk or something, sometimes I think I'm too eager to go back out there and try to correct it. My dog _needs_ breaks in between or else her reaction intensifies.


Mayzie is the same way. If I try to make her stay in a situation she finds worrisome, you can see the tension and anxiety building and building until she just shuts down. And like you, I have to keep myself from feeling like it has to be corrected NOW. Baby steps.

And yes, this thread is fabulous. It's so nice to have a place to go for advice or just to vent.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Guys... I've got to vent again...

Donatello has been freaking out for the last couple hours... I don't know over what... There have been some maintenance men working upstairs, and I think he's just not used to the floor creaking above him... Well, I finally had to give him a tablet and a half.  The first in a couple months. 

He's been trying to hide under the coffee table, every time I get up or move he tries to jump down... I don't permit him to follow me about, he's to stay on the sofa until I say "come here", or beckon for him to play or something; It's all in his training...

Anyway... His ears have been pricked in an odd way for the last few hours... There are people weed-eating and mowing outside, but that doesn't ever bother him; It did the _first_ them they did that, but they do it about twice a week and by now he doesn't even bat an eye...

But. We'll be sitting here on the sofa and he'll just look at something in the corner, then he starts up a frenzy of sniffing at -nothing- and then try to bolt...

I don't even know what the trigger is... So... He's leashed to me. The leash is clipped to him and loop-knotted around my wrist. I don't know what else to do, when he's on a leash he seems to calm down. (I don't know why. I think it's cause he's in a constant state of, _"WE'RE GOING OUTSIDE?"_)

I don't know guys, I should have known this day would end in disaster, I mean, look how it started! He ate good today, he did his tricks fine for me, we played on and off today too... So I'm not even sure what this "freaking out" thing is about, usually he shuts down and refuses to do anything but pee on me.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I wouldn't be so quick to say he's sniffing at nothing. We might never know, but it could have been a scent of something that smelled like something once before that he didn't like, or he's trying to find out what that sound is he's hearing. Trying to sniff to identify, and if he can't he gets scared. Or maybe he hears something that's sounding like it's coming from inside the wall.

I would agree that the sounds are getting to him a bit. If the floor creaking over his head is an infrequent sound, make a lot of sense that's what's driving him crazy. Wally was the same way if we're in the basement and the floor over the room we're in bangs or thumps, he used to start getting very anxious.

About the leash - I think it can have a calming effect on fearful dogs because it's like "I'm not alone" as well as a reminder of walks/going out/having fun. I know exactly what you mean - I've often wondered about it as well. I can never find any information on why that might be or even about it happening for someone else (until now).



ColoradoSooner said:


> Mayzie is the same way. If I try to make her stay in a situation she finds worrisome, you can see the tension and anxiety building and building until she just shuts down. And like you, I have to keep myself from feeling like it has to be corrected NOW. Baby steps.


I have a feeling I wouldn't know what to do with a lot of other fearful dogs. 

Which brings me to a question - do you think there's different kinds of fearful personalities in dogs?

My guess is yes just from reading this thread.

-Some dogs prefer, if not need, a slower/gradual increase in difficulty when it comes to their fearful triggers.

-Some indeed to seem to fall into the "be the strong, calm, firm leader" in order to help them become confident themselves (if my handler isn't worried, why am I worried?)

-Some respond to being taught what to do when they feel scared

-Some like the distraction/jolly routine method (do training and/or fun stuff to get the dog's mind off the trigger)

-Some respond better to CC methods more than anything else.


Seems like differences in how to work with fear just like there's different ways the fear manifests and the different triggers. And it probably is that different triggers will require some/all of those personality traits to come out.

It's all rather fascinating.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Deege, sniffing can be a calming signal. He is most likely trying to divert his attention from the scary thing and calm himself down. (In other cases, a sniffing dog can be trying to calm ANOTHER person/dog down, but it works for the dog self-calming as well).

Don't worry about having to give him the tablets - they ARE for you to use on him, right? If they help him, use them. 

See if he's better when the maintenance people go away.  I hope that's what it is.



> Which brings me to a question - do you think there's different kinds of fearful personalities in dogs?


To a degree, maybe. But I think it has much more to do with how scared of something a dog is AND what motivates the dog. Severe fears seem to always need CC, and those dogs usually shut down when asked to do something in the presence of the trigger because they're just too darn scared to do anything. Dogs who are heavily motivated by using praise will respond will to jollying. Dogs who are just a little nervous will be okay when being told to do something. So if you count all that as personality.. then yep, I agree!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> To a degree, maybe. But I think it has much more to do with how scared of something a dog is AND what motivates the dog. Severe fears seem to always need CC, and those dogs usually shut down when asked to do something in the presence of the trigger because they're just too darn scared to do anything. Dogs who are heavily motivated by using praise will respond will to jollying. Dogs who are just a little nervous will be okay when being told to do something. So if you count all that as personality.. then yep, I agree!


Well this leads me to another question - what qualifies as "severe fear"? In terms of behavior/body language - what would be severe fear vs "I just REALLY would rather be somewhere else"? Can the latter manifest with the same signs of severe fear?

I mean, when Wally's scared of something, he seems pretty freaked out of his mind (and used to bolt in an instant). He's shaking, panting, ears back, tail tucked under him, walking around fast anxious to get away from whatever would shadow my every single step. 

But the only CC-type thing I do is Look-At-That (and that's recently as I haven't had CU all that long, compared to how long we've been fighting this fear enemy). I've mainly worked on the training aspect/teach him what to do (don't run for the next county, run back to me and sit and look at me). Unless Wally's a diva and a drama queen (even though he's male? Are there male divas and is there a such thing as a drama king?), it seems he's more than a little nervous? (and beyond the bounds of the muscle memory thing, true fear complete with body language) Yet he still responds to my directions and will stay in a situation if directed? 

Also, I hear this expression a lot - but never could find a definition for it - "shut down". What does it mean that a dog is too scared to do anything but shut down? What behavior(s) is/are that/those?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

A perfect example of shutting down was what happened to my dog the other day. We went walking down the block, some kid came to his door and started banging on it with a toy or something. (whyyy must these things only happen when I go by  ) Marge freaked out, couldn't recover, wanted to run home. We continued on a little bit and then I saw she wasn't getting any better so we turned around. She started pulling home, and well, I got a little frustrated and tugged hard on her leash to get her back into heel position. Well, that upset her, but she stayed there and walked with her head down, tail low. THAT, to me, is shutdown behavior. Going thru the motions, just because there's no other way.

I kind of also loosely lump the extreme "runrunrunrunrunrAHHHH" response into shutting down, but that's because when my dog does that, it is usually a point of no return for us. (Simply jumping at something and recovering is NOT shutting down. I'm talking about a long, drawn out response, especially to a trigger that keeps repeating itself, like a long bout of fireworks.)

"Severe fear," to me, is not being able to work at all in the presence of the trigger. I think it's very contextual too. But my dog has a severe fear of fireworks. One pop up in the air and she is goooone. Also I think a dog who freezes in the presence of its trigger and just kinda gets stuck for a substantial period of time is severely fearful.

Also, a dog who doesn't use it's nose to investigate, to me, is pretty darn scared. Of course this could have a ton to do with breed, but there is a MARKED difference in Marge's sniffing patterns between when she's scared and when she's not. If she's not sniffing any of the usual interesting things, like trees and telephone poles, usually that means something's bothering her. If she is sniffing, that generally means that she's pretty relaxed. Kind of paradoxical given the whole "sniffing is a calming signal" thing, but I'm trying to figure out the difference between calming signal sniffing and genuine curiosity sniffing. I'm putting "go sniff" on command as sort of a reward and also a means of distraction.

BTW KB I gave you the link to Roxanne's blog about her dog Lilly, right? She has some great stuff in there about her dog's body language if you browse back in her training updates. Usually very descriptive.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Shutting down is a case of complete helplessness, usually the dog feels it cannot escape (flight) and has very likely exhausted all his options (barking, lunging, aggressing) that go with fight drive..if this happens frequently the dog may simply freeze or lie down and just pant. 
A perfect example of shutdown is Chessie's incident that she talked about in her thread about how the guy jumped out and grabbed her...she fell over in shock, urinated and took fifteen minutes to recover...that is the extreme example.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, I know when my dog runs she's exercising the flight option (and I guess in her eyes it works to some degree), but I just kind of lump it in as shutting down from a training aspect I guess. Because she can't/won't respond to anything that I do.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> A perfect example of shutting down was what happened to my dog the other day. We went walking down the block, some kid came to his door and started banging on it with a toy or something. (whyyy must these things only happen when I go by  ) Marge freaked out, couldn't recover, wanted to run home. We continued on a little bit and then I saw she wasn't getting any better so we turned around. She started pulling home, and well, I got a little frustrated and tugged hard on her leash to get her back into heel position. Well, that upset her, but she stayed there and walked with her head down, tail low. THAT, to me, is shutdown behavior. Going thru the motions, just because there's no other way.


By that description, I don't think Wally's ever shutdown on me. If anything, that would get him super, almost fanatically focused on me and then he's shadowing my every move, etc. 

It's like he thinks the way out is through me so he's like waiting with every edge of his being for my direction so we can get out of the situation.




MissMutt said:


> I kind of also loosely lump the extreme "runrunrunrunrunrAHHHH" response into shutting down, but that's because when my dog does that, it is usually a point of no return for us. (Simply jumping at something and recovering is NOT shutting down. I'm talking about a long, drawn out response, especially to a trigger that keeps repeating itself, like a long bout of fireworks.)


That sorta seemed like what happened on the 4th - he was always on edge, but then again, he was still able to keep himself aware of me, he just was walking with fast short steps were you could tell he was super vigilant and nervous.




MissMutt said:


> "Severe fear," to me, is not being able to work at all in the presence of the trigger. I think it's very contextual too. But my dog has a severe fear of fireworks. One pop up in the air and she is goooone. Also I think a dog who freezes in the presence of its trigger and just kinda gets stuck for a substantial period of time is severely fearful.


Hmm...Wally isn't expressing severe fear either. He'll always follow my direction regardless of how freaked he is. In fact, the more freaked, the FASTER he follows my directions.



MissMutt said:


> Also, a dog who doesn't use it's nose to investigate, to me, is pretty darn scared. Of course this could have a ton to do with breed, but there is a MARKED difference in Marge's sniffing patterns between when she's scared and when she's not. If she's not sniffing any of the usual interesting things, like trees and telephone poles, usually that means something's bothering her. If she is sniffing, that generally means that she's pretty relaxed. Kind of paradoxical given the whole "sniffing is a calming signal" thing, but I'm trying to figure out the difference between calming signal sniffing and genuine curiosity sniffing. I'm putting "go sniff" on command as sort of a reward and also a means of distraction.


This I've seen as well and also use it as an indicator. In fact, this was how I first found the "faux fear" act. He'd be acting all nervous and such, but would sniff whatever he's afraid of. Calming signal sniffing is usually just right where the dog is and he/she had no desire to sniff that spot except when a dog/person/critter/whatever makes the dog uncomfortable and then suddenly its sniff sniff sniff the same spot. That's another thing - "regular" sniffing seems to be with the dog in motion, following/seeking the scent. Calming signal sniffing seems stationary and quick.




MissMutt said:


> BTW KB I gave you the link to Roxanne's blog about her dog Lilly, right? She has some great stuff in there about her dog's body language if you browse back in her training updates. Usually very descriptive.


Right, I still have that link.



MissMutt said:


> Yeah, I know when my dog runs she's exercising the flight option (and I guess in her eyes it works to some degree), but I just kind of lump it in as shutting down from a training aspect I guess. Because she can't/won't respond to anything that I do.


Yeah, in Defense Drive (Flight/Fight/Freeze).

Training usually works in Prey/Pack Drive from what I've read.



Cracker said:


> Shutting down is a case of complete helplessness, usually the dog feels it cannot escape (flight) and has very likely exhausted all his options (barking, lunging, aggressing) that go with fight drive..if this happens frequently the dog may simply freeze or lie down and just pant.


That sounds a lot like learned helplessness where the dog will just take whatever because all actions have been useless.

Is that (learned helplessness) the same as shut down?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think learned helplesness is like repeated shutting down.. where the dog learns, in a given situation, to not even TRY to get away because he knows there's no way. Usually the fear I hear about learned helplessness is that the dog generalizes it so he doesn't try in any situation.

I think they did experiments like this with rats. Rats that knew they could get away from an electrical shock would try to do so. Rats that couldn't get away, after a while, no longer even tried and just basically sat there and endured the pain. No fighting it, nothing.

From what you say Wally seems like he 1) has a quick, relatively intense fearful reaction to a trigger stimulus that dissipates somewhat quickly and 2) is extremely handler oriented. I wonder if it has to do with his being afraid of inanimate objects. I know he has some fear of people but you always mention things like him being terrified to pass a spot on the sidewalk that looks different and things like that. Marge is less afraid of those kinds of things (with the exception of noise) and more afraid of people. Since inanimate objects don't move, you can coach Wally through the fear and the trigger never changes, the way a trigger person would change (moving, talking, eye contact. an inanimate object can't do these things).


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I think learned helplesness is like repeated shutting down.. where the dog learns, in a given situation, to not even TRY to get away because he knows there's no way. Usually the fear I hear about learned helplessness is that the dog generalizes it so he doesn't try in any situation.


Yeah, the rat experiment is what I was thinking of. Learned helplessness = generalized shut down. Makes sense to me!




MissMutt said:


> From what you say Wally seems like he 1) has a quick, relatively intense fearful reaction to a trigger stimulus that dissipates somewhat quickly and 2) is extremely handler oriented. I wonder if it has to do with his being afraid of inanimate objects. I know he has some fear of people but you always mention things like him being terrified to pass a spot on the sidewalk that looks different and things like that. Marge is less afraid of those kinds of things (with the exception of noise) and more afraid of people. Since inanimate objects don't move, you can coach Wally through the fear and the trigger never changes, the way a trigger person would change (moving, talking, eye contact. an inanimate object can't do these things).


I think you have him pretty much pegged. 

That's an interesting thought. It could be trigger he has that created a different sort of interaction between us than with a dog who's more fearful of triggers that can move on their own like a person. 

I think his fear of other dogs tops the list of his fears now, though the object fear is still up there, unfortunately. Now that I think about it, having saved him from three dog attacks probably just strengthened his "look to my handler" reaction (as well as his dog fear) as well as my instructions never bringing him any harm. At least, I like to think of it that way.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm sorry to stray the topic back a little bit, but I didn't get these messages until this morning...



KBLover said:


> I wouldn't be so quick to say he's sniffing at nothing. We might never know, but it could have been a scent of something that smelled like something once before that he didn't like, or he's trying to find out what that sound is he's hearing. Trying to sniff to identify, and if he can't he gets scared. Or maybe he hears something that's sounding like it's coming from inside the wall.


He doesn't get off the sofa and go sniff an area, he points his nose in any direction, usually the corner on the opposite side of the room and start sniffing like mad... As if there's someone standing there and he's trying to pick up their scent. He's done this since I brought him home in December, but it's been getting worse lately... I wouldn't say "worse" like it's a problem, but it's confusing to me because sometimes he'll sniff at this -nothing- across the room and then try to crawl on my lap for comfort. 



> I would agree that the sounds are getting to him a bit. If the floor creaking over his head is an infrequent sound, make a lot of sense that's what's driving him crazy. Wally was the same way if we're in the basement and the floor over the room we're in bangs or thumps, he used to start getting very anxious.


Well the maintenance men were stomping around all day yesterday. All day. We don't have anyone that lives up there, so for several months it was quite. Every now and again a few squeaks, well yesterday one of the bigger, more heavyset guys were walking around and wherever this guy stepped it did sound as if his feet would fall through.  I'm sure he'd be fine and would get used to it if someone lived up there and walked softly at first, but that's something I can't control...

He unleashed his "shutdown" behavior yesterday... I don't know how many times I had to holler his name and tell him to jump back up on the sofa. I don't permit Donatello to *hide* under anything, if anything him doing that _feeds into his fears_ because he does it to feel safe but still hears the noise that scares him so he becomes even more frightened... That's just my opinion, based on what I see when he does that... So I had to keep calling his name and pulling on him to get him back on the sofa. Then I kept _trying_ to grab his attention with something but it was just no use... That's when I gave him a tablet, which did help, he was still freaked out, but he wasn't "shutdown" anymore, and didn't try to bolt every time there was a noise from upstairs.



> About the leash - I think it can have a calming effect on fearful dogs because it's like "I'm not alone" as well as a reminder of walks/going out/having fun. I know exactly what you mean - I've often wondered about it as well. I can never find any information on why that might be or even about it happening for someone else (until now).


There are some dogs, that are "too far gone" for this trick to work... Like my step-mother's dog Freckles, she is lethal when there's a thunderstorm; She's severely hurt herself many times because she couldn't find "safety" from a thunderstorm, she's hurt me before as well. The "leash'em trick" _did NOT_ work. At all. It made it worse, she tries flight during a thunderstorm to find safety, but when she's leashed she feels she can't get away, (which is true) and it makes her thrash and carry on... The poor dog is too old to be injuring herself because of thunder. But they allowed her behavior to continue instead of trying to train her, they just let her have a fit or medicate her when she gets too bad.



MissMutt said:


> Deege, sniffing can be a calming signal. He is most likely trying to divert his attention from the scary thing and calm himself down. (In other cases, a sniffing dog can be trying to calm ANOTHER person/dog down, but it works for the dog self-calming as well).


Well, I do understand that. When I taught him "touch" he's improved 10fold; When he touches an object I can see him sniffing it, and then he concludes that, that object could never hurt him. So instead of slinking around the object the next time he'd walk right by it... But this sniffing, the sniffing he was doing yesterday, I don't know what he's sniffing at- Because like I said he was on the sofa and kept looking at different places in the room and would point his nose at "something/nothing" and just sniff and sniff and sniff... If he continued doing that, and I guess couldn't figure that "something/nothing" out, he'd crawl to me for "comfort" I guess. If I knew what it was he was sniffing at I'd go show him there's nothing to worry about... He could "touch" it and find out for himself...



> Don't worry about having to give him the tablets - they ARE for you to use on him, right? If they help him, use them.


The tablets are for him to use, and I got them with worry that I'd be using them every day, and I only used them three times now, but I really wish that I could just explain to Donatello, or show him, that there was nothing to be worried about. The tablets don't hurt him, they just calm him down but I still wish I didn't have to use them...

He was better later on that night, he even played with me a few minutes before I went to sleep, and he didn't wake up this morning like he did yesterday so I think we'll have a good day.

My mother, of course, asked me with an accusing tone in her voice, _"Why do you have him on a leash?"_ As if there's a problem with doing that. It wasn't hurting Donatello, he was calm, sitting beside me while I waited for noodles to boil. I told her that the maintenance men moved another refrigerator from upstairs today and I told her that they've been stomping around up there and it's wigging him out... She scoffed and said, _"Well what's he going to do when someone moves up there? I guess he'll just have to get used to it."_ Well, you know and I know she's right, but the way she _said_ it, pissed me off greatly- But I kept my cool and said, _"Well, he could get used to someone walking over his head if that someone didn't weigh 300+ pounds. He'd get used to it if the sound was there every day and not every couple weeks."_ She just huffed and walked off...

I don't know what her problem is, one moment it feels as if she's defending _him_ against me, and then in the same breath she's mocking him for being scared... I don't get it...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> He doesn't get off the sofa and go sniff an area, he points his nose in any direction, usually the corner on the opposite side of the room and start sniffing like mad... As if there's someone standing there and he's trying to pick up their scent. He's done this since I brought him home in December, but it's been getting worse lately... I wouldn't say "worse" like it's a problem, but it's confusing to me because sometimes he'll sniff at this -nothing- across the room and then try to crawl on my lap for comfort.


Still sounds like he's trying to identify, imo. Kinda like how when Wally walks out the door (especially the front door), the first thing he does is sniff, sniff, sniff. He's not really sniffing anything (like the flowers or the porch), but he points his nose around and sniffs the air. I figure he's sniffing for potential trouble or what's going on. Is this the same place? Are these the same scents as before? Are those the same kids? Is that a new person? Which dogs are here? Are these the same dogs? Etc...

I know our dogs are different, but almost invariably when he starts scenting like this when we're out and about, he's picked up SOMETHING "nearby" (to him). The last few nights, he's come to a dead stop and started sniffing around and moving slowly like he's trying to hunt something. 

He's always done this? That really makes me think he's trying to identify something. Maybe the scent has changed. Is there anything on the other side of the wall/corner he points at and sniffs?




deege39 said:


> Well the maintenance men were stomping around all day yesterday. All day. We don't have anyone that lives up there, so for several months it was quite. Every now and again a few squeaks, well yesterday one of the bigger, more heavyset guys were walking around and wherever this guy stepped it did sound as if his feet would fall through.  I'm sure he'd be fine and would get used to it if someone lived up there and walked softly at first, but that's something I can't control...


Nope, but it was probably just one of the triggers that day. Can't worry about what you can't control, just manage the behavior that results, which is what you did.




deege39 said:


> He unleashed his "shutdown" behavior yesterday... I don't know how many times I had to holler his name and tell him to jump back up on the sofa. I don't permit Donatello to *hide* under anything, if anything him doing that _feeds into his fears_ because he does it to feel safe but still hears the noise that scares him so he becomes even more frightened... That's just my opinion, based on what I see when he does that...


It makes sense. Sounds like it starts a vicious cycle. He hides because he hates the sound, but he still can hear it, so he becomes more afraid and stays in the hidng spot, but the sound is still there, etc. 




deege39 said:


> There are some dogs, that are "too far gone" for this trick to work... Like my step-mother's dog Freckles, she is lethal when there's a thunderstorm; She's severely hurt herself many times because she couldn't find "safety" from a thunderstorm, she's hurt me before as well. The "leash'em trick" _did NOT_ work. At all. It made it worse, she tries flight during a thunderstorm to find safety, but when she's leashed she feels she can't get away, (which is true) and it makes her thrash and carry on... The poor dog is too old to be injuring herself because of thunder. But they allowed her behavior to continue instead of trying to train her, they just let her have a fit or medicate her when she gets too bad.


Well, I guess like with all tricks, different results for different dogs. That's interesting, though, because Wally is definitely a flight-defense dog, but the leash trick helped him a lot. Funny how dog's personalities make a difference in things, just like people's.

But yeah, they basically trained her to run during storms. I feel you're _always_ training just like you're _always_ teaching a child something - whether you realize it or it's "formal" or not. So if they just allowed her to have a fit and coddled her, etc, they reinforced the reaction to the fear (not the fear itself - but they told her "that's right, that's how you act when there's a storm") - where you or I would probably interrupt that chain and teach a new one like you're doing with Donatello.



deege39 said:


> If he continued doing that, and I guess couldn't figure that "something/nothing" out, he'd crawl to me for "comfort" I guess. If I knew what it was he was sniffing at I'd go show him there's nothing to worry about... He could "touch" it and find out for himself...


Yeah, sounds like he's confused and can't figure out the situation, so that worried him and he looked to you to help him/protect him. Reminds me of when I make shaping too hard for Wally - he gets all like "What does he want? I don't know! I tried this, this, and this! But he doesn't want that...what is it?! What's going to happen? What did I do?! I can't figure out what he wants!" Then he'll give me this "please help me I'm just a pitiful little dog" look (which doesn't work, so he offers another behavior and that one will work)

Seems like Donatello is having a similar pattern - "What is that?! I want to go touch it, but I can't find it! Where is it? I can SMELL it! But I can't find where it is! I don't know what to do! I'm trying to find it, but I can't!" 




deege39 said:


> The tablets are for him to use, and I got them with worry that I'd be using them every day, and I only used them three times now, but I really wish that I could just explain to Donatello, or show him, that there was nothing to be worried about. The tablets don't hurt him, they just calm him down but I still wish I didn't have to use them...


Maybe have him touch the wall/corner itself? Will he go over there if you guide him there? 





deege39 said:


> I don't know what her problem is, one moment it feels as if she's defending _him_ against me, and then in the same breath she's mocking him for being scared... I don't get it...



She probably thinks you're why he's scared (i.e. how you handle him)? Like "the poor dog is all leashed up and you're why he's such a pitiful coward in the first place."


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> he wasn't "shutdown" anymore, and didn't try to bolt every time there was a noise from upstairs.


You _sure_ he wasn't shut down? A dog who isn't running away may have very well habituated himself to the noise, but it could also mean that he sees no way to get away (like hiding) and simply stays in place because he has no other option.

In regards to the sniffing, I'm thinking maybe he was trying to pair the noises he was hearing with a scent. When that failed, he became more frantic trying to find a scent.



> The tablets are for him to use, and I got them with worry that I'd be using them every day, and I only used them three times now, but I really wish that I could just explain to Donatello, or show him, that there was nothing to be worried about. The tablets don't hurt him, they just calm him down but I still wish I didn't have to use them...


Marge has been taking a melatonin pill for almost every day since last week now. In the future, especially next summer, I would not be surprised if I can convince my vet to give me alprazolam. (In fact, I just might beg him for it, because I don't want to go through what I'm going through now yet again.) I didn't want to give her anything at first, especially not a full-fledged medicine, but the idea is that I'm giving her something to help lessen her response so that I can condition her against the scary trigger.



> I don't know what her problem is, one moment it feels as if she's defending him against me, and then in the same breath she's mocking him for being scared... I don't get it...


All I can say to this is that I'm sorry.  You and I are about the same age, so I know what this is like.



> She probably thinks you're why he's scared (i.e. how you handle him)? Like "the poor dog is all leashed up and you're why he's such a pitiful coward in the first place."


That's what those morons implied to me the other day when I whined on here. I find that so offensive and uncalled for and it really made me upset. Because even though I know they're wrong, it's impossible to refute them. How do you tell uninterested, stubborn people about counterconditioning and stuff like that?


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> You _sure_ he wasn't shut down? A dog who isn't running away may have very well habituated himself to the noise, but it could also mean that he sees no way to get away (like hiding) and simply stays in place because he has no other option.


No, it wasn't like that at all... He calmed down enough, and when I sat with him on the sofa I took his chew and wiggled it in front of his nose and he actually grabbed it and started chewing on it... When he's "shutdown", he'll ignore my advances, and he'll hide from whatever I'm trying to give him.



> In regards to the sniffing, I'm thinking maybe he was trying to pair the noises he was hearing with a scent. When that failed, he became more frantic trying to find a scent.


Well, he does this sniffing thing at the air even when there aren't noises from upstairs; The noises upstairs only go on about one day out of a couple weeks, and he doesn't this sniffing thing just about once a day... Most times, however, it doesn't spook him. But yesterday it spooked him, probably from the added noises upstairs.



> Marge has been taking a melatonin pill for almost every day since last week now. In the future, especially next summer, I would not be surprised if I can convince my vet to give me alprazolam. (In fact, I just might beg him for it, because I don't want to go through what I'm going through now yet again.) I didn't want to give her anything at first, especially not a full-fledged medicine, but the idea is that I'm giving her something to help lessen her response so that I can condition her against the scary trigger.


These tablets are in no way, medicine, and I'd feel heartbroken if it was... Just like I feel heartbroken for Freckles that needs to be doped up at every rumble of thunder... But if it helps, it helps, it's still sad you have to take it to that level.



> All I can say to this is that I'm sorry.  You and I are about the same age, so I know what this is like.


It seems like I've come to an impasse of sorts... Everything I do for Donatello helps him, but I'm the only one that believes that... Others think that what I'm doing is too "harsh" and not necessary... I try to defend myself and Donatello, but to no avail...



KBLover said:


> Still sounds like he's trying to identify, imo. Kinda like how when Wally walks out the door (especially the front door), the first thing he does is sniff, sniff, sniff. He's not really sniffing anything (like the flowers or the porch), but he points his nose around and sniffs the air. I figure he's sniffing for potential trouble or what's going on. Is this the same place? Are these the same scents as before? Are those the same kids? Is that a new person? Which dogs are here? Are these the same dogs? Etc...


It's possible that's what Donatello is doing...



> I know our dogs are different, but almost invariably when he starts scenting like this when we're out and about, he's picked up SOMETHING "nearby" (to him). The last few nights, he's come to a dead stop and started sniffing around and moving slowly like he's trying to hunt something.


That almost sounds cute. 



> He's always done this? That really makes me think he's trying to identify something. Maybe the scent has changed. Is there anything on the other side of the wall/corner he points at and sniffs?


Yes, he's always done this, but lately he's been doing it more and more. And there is nothing there... One the other side of the wall is just the outside... It's hard to believe his nose is that good to pick up scents from outside through a wall and from across the room...




> Nope, but it was probably just one of the triggers that day. Can't worry about what you can't control, just manage the behavior that results, which is what you did.


Yeah, I was ticked off yesterday, because it was making my dog a raging lunatic, but I tried to keep my cool and ignore it myself... I just focused on Donatello and doing the work I needed to do...




> It makes sense. Sounds like it starts a vicious cycle. He hides because he hates the sound, but he still can hear it, so he becomes more afraid and stays in the hidng spot, but the sound is still there, etc.


I was in my room one time, and Donatello was out on the sofa, I was opening a package of something, and I came out of my room and Donatello was under the kitchen table at my mothers feet. Not only was I ticked off that he ran to -her- for comfort, but she just let him! She _knows_ how I feel about him hiding from noises. I asked her, _"What's he doing?"_ and she just shrugged, _"He heard something, I guess your paper and got freaked out..."_ so I replied, _"So you just let him hide at your feet under the table?"_ She stared at me blankly, _"Well what did you expect I do?"_ I just huffed and said, _"Nothing."_ (Because I've told her _time and time again_ to *shoo* him or guide him back to the sofa.) So I told him to get back on the sofa and he did, he was fine after that... I made him "gimme a kiss" which he did and wagged his tail happily, not something he would have done if he was scared.



> But yeah, they basically trained her to run during storms. I feel you're _always_ training just like you're _always_ teaching a child something - whether you realize it or it's "formal" or not. So if they just allowed her to have a fit and coddled her, etc, they reinforced the reaction to the fear (not the fear itself - but they told her "that's right, that's how you act when there's a storm") - where you or I would probably interrupt that chain and teach a new one like you're doing with Donatello.


I've tried telling them how to handle Freckles and they've either said, _"We tried that, it didn't work..."_ or _"She's too old, it'd take too long to try and change her, we just deal with it.."_ Yeah, well, they're dealing with it, but what about Freckles? She's obviously not -dealing with it-... It's one of those situations you can't change, you try to help but if others aren't going to reinforce your work then it does no good...

I don't allow Donatello to "hide" or to "run". I make him "face" his fears and I do my best to show him that it's "okay" there's nothing to be afraid of, so that next time something like it happens, he doesn't freak out and try to run away...



> Maybe have him touch the wall/corner itself? Will he go over there if you guide him there?


I could try that... 



> She probably thinks you're why he's scared (i.e. how you handle him)? Like "the poor dog is all leashed up and you're why he's such a pitiful coward in the first place."


That's quite possible as well... It pisses me off too... She doesn't realize that Donatello's made so many improvements being with me, so instead she probably just thinks I'm being too mean to him with all these rules...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> These tablets are in no way, medicine, and I'd feel heartbroken if it was... Just like I feel heartbroken for Freckles that needs to be doped up at every rumble of thunder... But if it helps, it helps, it's still sad you have to take it to that level.


Melatonin isn't medicine either. It's an OTC hormone. The reason you should feel bad for Freckles is because she's doped up and no one's trying to do anything for her. If she was drugged and then worked with, that's not sad.. that's trying to help her.



> It seems like I've come to an impasse of sorts... Everything I do for Donatello helps him, but I'm the only one that believes that... Others think that what I'm doing is too "harsh" and not necessary... I try to defend myself and Donatello, but to no avail...


Yep. You'll always have people from the outside trying to stick to more traditional methods. I almost feel like 40 years ago fearful dogs didn't even exist.  Because that's how they act.. as if they've never dealt with such issues before. I guess the reality is that fearful dogs back then probably either ran away, or were kept in the yard left to fend for themselves, or spent their lives hiding under a bed.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

deege39 said:


> These tablets are in no way, medicine, and I'd feel heartbroken if it was... Just like I feel heartbroken for Freckles that needs to be doped up at every rumble of thunder... But if it helps, it helps, it's still sad you have to take it to that level.


There was an interesting and informative exchange yesterday on the Fearful Dog group about medications. It really made me feel better about using them if it comes to that. There is still such a stigma in this country about mental illness and that extends to our dogs. But if you had a human family member who was so terrified that they couldn't move or were actually hurting themselves to get away from the thing that scared them, you would do whatever you could (including meds) to help them. Just like we would all give our dogs medication for a physical illness, why should it be any different for a mental illness or imbalance? There lives are so short and should we make them suffer through their fears if there's something we can give them to alleviate their fears and give them a better quality of life?

However, I think MissMutt is right. Just putting a dog on medication without doing any behavioral modification is, IMO, ridiculous. The point, at least to me, of putting on dog on medication is to give them the opportunity to learn and move forward if they're not capable of doing so without it. It's incredibly inhumane to let a dog suffer when there are tools, medicinally and behaviorally, to help them.

However, having said that, I don't think that every fearful dog needs them. I am still struggling with this myself. I don't really know whether Mayzie is an appropriate candidate for meds or not. I definitely don't think she is a candidate for daily medication, as she typically functions well. But I'm thinking of talking to our vet about situational meds like Xanax for when we're in a situation that I know is going to really stress her out and make her shut down (like going to visit family for the holidays).

On the other hand, I have a cat, Ripley, on prozac. He has a history of aggression toward our other dog, Ranger, to the point where Ranger is actually afraid and very mistrustful of Ripley. And it was obvious that Ripley was really stressed out. So I wanted to set up the situation with Mayzie differently. It's really helped Ripley a lot. He isn't "zoned out," his personality hasn't changed at all...it's just helped him be more even-keeled, if that makes sense. We, of course, have been doing a lot of behavior modification between the two of them and I'm hopeful that we can start weaning him off it soon.

Wow...that turned into a really long post!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I agree with you every bit CoSooner. I thought I saw the name 'Mayzie' on the fearful dog list  They are VERY pro medicine/supplement on that list. Debbie from fearfuldogs.com was one of the people who heavily suggested Melatonin to me, and others have mentioned the use of alprazolam or diazepam. We'll see. Someone on the list told me that they give their dog meds each summer, for the same reasons that my dog is having problems now (noises, people, etc)

If you do talk to your vet though, be prepared for some level of resistance. ALOT of vets have qualms about prescribing Valium or Xanax because people abuse them. Someone did suggest to me though that maybe I can ask my vet for a sample first, just so I can see how she responds to a couple of pills. Maybe he'll be less worried if I start with just a few.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Just read the posts from the last few days - some interesting discussion to be sure. Made me wonder about the different approaches we're all using. My first response when Poca acts fearful is to remove her from the situation or to remove the thing she's afraid of. I back way, way off first. Then I start moving back in again, slowly, inch by inch, rewarding for any progress along the way. My hope is that eventually she'll relax and not fear the thing as much or at all. With some things it takes one shot and she's done. With others, it takes months.

What was really interesting to me was the idea that dogs have different fear personalities that require a different approach. Poca is not handler oriented at all. Using firmness with her when she's afraid causes her to totally shut down and then we accomplish nothing. And for the first 2.5 years of her life she was not food motivated either. The only thing that motivated her was other dogs. As I think someone on DF posted once, I can hardly carry a chihuahua around with me just to help Poca over her fears! So dealing with her fears has been very hard. Now that she has fewer stomach problems, it's a little easier because she's eating regularly and is more food motivated. Plus, on balance, she's had more positive experiences than bad ones in her life now, so I think we're winning the game. Most days. 

RE people around you not understanding or supporting what you're trying to do: PFFFFT!!!! That one makes me _soooo_ angry. My family pretty much knows I'll go postal if they criticize so they don't say much of anything any more. But the disapproval is still there. Good thing I've developed an ultra tough hide when it comes to my dog. Screw 'em. I love them dearly but they don't know squat about dogs. Again. Screw 'em!

Sorry to blather on. I'm probably feeling a little anxious about the family thing because the hoard is coming over this weekend. I so look forward to it because it's such a great training opportunity but it's also very draining to have to be "on" all the time with Poca, making sure the rules are followed, etc. and that everyone is entertained, fed, etc. I pretty much collapse after parties. Oh well. One day I just know that the perfect party is coming where I don't have to worry about the dog or the people. And there's a maid to clean it all up afterwards! Ha! I think we need to start a "After the Fearful Dog Thread" (Like Dunbar's "After You Get Your Puppy") where we dream about life with our now perfect dogs.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

winniec777 said:


> Plus, on balance, she's had more positive experiences than bad ones in her life now, so I think we're winning the game. Most days.


Hey, if you win more than you lose, you're a good team in the sports world. I think it applies to this "game" as well.

Some days you get blown out (nothing goes right all day), some days you pitch a shutout (everything is nearly perfect), many are between those extremes, but if you're having more "wins" (even if they are "ugly wins" where the dog gets scared often during the walk or whatever but recovers, etc.) then you're doing something right!


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Amen! Although I count just about every moment she's not afraid as a win. Wow! Look at Poca slurping that water! Good girl! What a nice poopie! Wahoo - let's scoop the poop! 

If they had bumper stickers for proud dog owners, I would get one. "I am the proud owner of a recovering fearful dog!" or "My dog is an honor student at FearBeGone U!" I saw one once that said something like "My dog could _eat_ your honor student," with a pic of a snarling dog - black - of course. Made me laugh and cringe at the same time.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Wininie I'm so happy to see you back in this thread! I've been wondering where you've been!

Today was mostly a rough day. Well, sort of. We had a short afternoon walk in the field and Marge was fine, no one around, but then she saw a guy carrying a crate full of baseball equipment over to one of the diamonds and she was like "errrrrrrrrr..." I threw treats on the ground and she took them and then I guess she was alright when we went home (saw one of the neighbor's dogs, an old white tiny dog that she loves)

Then I attempted to take her on a walk with wet food. Was working initially, we passed a group of kids and she didn't really care. But then, lo and behold, the ONE boom of thunder that we had today had to go off while we were on a side street. WHY. WHY. WHY. She didn't completely go into panic mode because she did keep taking the food but she was pretty darn close to it.

I fed her the remainder of her meal while in my driveway. I don't know whether it was productive or not. She seemed very distracted... she knows that if I hold an open palm of food that means she is to look at me and then I release her to eat it, but she wasn't readily offering eye contact  She did it after looking at her surroundings each time, but I don't know, she just kind of looked stressed. I would have played LAT but it's honestly so hard to do in that situation because she is looking at EVERYTHING.

I called it quits for the night after that. Would have loved to take her out now, but I heard loud voices and maybe some booms (fireworks?) so I decided it wasn't in our best interest.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> But then, lo and behold, the ONE boom of thunder that we had today had to go off while we were on a side street. WHY. WHY. WHY.


The Fearful Dog Owner's lament - Why did that have to happen when it did?!

Really, frustrating. The one time where I wish dogs were bad at associating is when I'm trying to get him to act confidently then some shrieking kid comes out of nowhere or screams for God only knows what reason (why do kids scream so much?) 




MissMutt said:


> I fed her the remainder of her meal while in my driveway. I don't know whether it was productive or not. She seemed very distracted... she knows that if I hold an open palm of food that means she is to look at me and then I release her to eat it, but she wasn't readily offering eye contact  She did it after looking at her surroundings each time, but I don't know, she just kind of looked stressed. I would have played LAT but it's honestly so hard to do in that situation because she is looking at EVERYTHING.


Maybe not productive as you would like, but if she looked at you before getting the food, I'd call that productive. She's still pairing it with looking at you for something pleasant. 

Sometimes (okay, often) I give Wally a direct "Focus!" cue before c/t him. Almost like LAT but in a different way - look at whatever, then focus on me. Either way it's building the same pattern that I want. I know what you mean with the look at everything (a game I don't want to play) so hence the redirection cue.

And fireworks? STILL? Geez.

One a somewhat positive note: Wally kinda met a puppy today. 

A little girl (a calm one for a change) was carrying a cute white puffball of a puppy and put the pup down about 3 feet from Wally. The pup licked his nose and Wally looked away for a second or two then turned around to sniff as the puppy walked away. I don't think he was anxious over the pup, just alert and interested. 

When he sat up, his lower back is against my leg - not that I think that means anything, except he wasn't aware he was sitting almost on me I guess  Or maybe I'm comfortable, I don't know.

But he didn't growl at the pup, so that's good. I think he kinda upset him (the pup) though, as the pup gave that calming signal (or maybe not - maybe the pup was just communicating).


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Guys. I'VE GOT GREAT NEWS!! 

I GOT A DOG CRATE! : D I'm so excited! (Over a dogcrate, that is kind of sad.) ; ) lol. 

Anyway... I called my father yesterday and he told me to call my uncle because he has a dogcrate that he doesn't want/need anymore, and to get the dimensions and see if it'd work for Donatello. 

Donatello is roughly- 18in. tall from front paws to head. Over 19in. from nose to butt.

So I called my uncle and his dog crate is 18/17in. wide and tall, and 2ft. deep/long... There is no way that'd work for me. So I decided to go to the petstore and see what I could find... I took my tape measure just in-case. I was going to price them and see what they had, if they didn't have anything in a reasonable price range I was going to go to Wal-mart. 

Low-and-behold. The last big one they had... MARKED DOWN FROM $99.99 TO $38.40!!  My mother was with me and surprised me by saying, _"Let's just get it for you, it's over $60 off! You won't find that big of one, that nice of one, for that price anywhere else... And it's the last one!"_ So I grabbed it!! : ) Eeeeeeek... I was so excited.

So we rushed home, and I set it up... (I also got one of those "crocks", those dishes that attach to the door?) I slid it into my bedroom and Donatello instantly became curious.

I put in two blankets, one of which is his favorite. I put it beside my bed, and I'm also using the top as a nightstand. : P Which works out better, my last table was too short... 

Anyway... He was sitting on the bed, and I said, _"Come'ere,"_ So he jumped down and sniffed at it... I pointed in it and said, _"Go in your crate,"_ Now he doesn't know "go in your crate," (yet), but I've trained him to know that when I point somewhere, that's where I want him to lay down. So he went inside and laid down! NO PROBLEM! 

So then he sits up, and he started "touching" everything. He "touched" the roof, the metal bars for the windows, the plastic walls, the metal door, the plastic bowl for his water, and even the blankets... Then he kept looking at me like, _"I could like it in here."_ I was so excited and shocked! I was expecting the worst...

I even left him in it so I could take a shower. I told anyone that if they hear him make a noise to come get me and let me... No one did... So either no one heard him, or he didn't make a noise, (which he really must not have) because when I went back in my room I looked and he was curled up asleep!

So I took some pictures... There will be a couple more in _Pictures_ along with a video, when I can upload them.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Nice crate (and great deal on the price - wow!) 

I'm glad Donatello took to it so easily! I think he's going to love it in there. It might even be his sanctuary.

He'll learn the crate command just by doing what you're doing - point him in, and say your command (mine is "bedtime", and "go crate" - "go" is like a prefix to tell him to move somewhere, so we have go potty, go crate, go downstairs, go on your spot, go shade, etc) 

Doing that consistently, he'll learn the connection between you pointing him in and making your sounds (words) and assume one means the same as the other. 

I didn't realize Donatello is that tall. I pictured him being about Wally's size or a touch smaller (like 10" tall). Wouldn't have ever guessed he's actually taller than Wally. (I think Wally is 14-15" from floor to head assuming his head is at normal position - I know he's 11" at the shoulder)


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Awww...look how happy and comfy Mr. Donatello looks in his new crate! Aren't you glad you decided to get it? (And that was a smokin' deal for sure!)

MissMutt - what is up with fireworks STILL going off? That's insane. It's August, for crying out loud! And yep, things always seem to happen at the most inopportune times for our shy dogs. The one thing I'm really grateful for is that Mayzie isn't really noise-sensitive. Our other dog, although not generally fearful, is scared of thunder and fireworks. I think noise phobias are harder in some ways because you can't play the LAT game or get them used to it since it's so sporadic and unpredictable. It's not really possible to recreate a thunderstorm in a controlled environment. I suppose you *could* start popping fireworks in your backyard but Marge would probably pack her bags and move.  (Just kidding, of course!)

This morning, Mayzie ran through our screen door. Argh! She's normally really good about knowing whether it's open or closed but today she heard squirrels outside and bolted right through it. Of course, it scared the bejeebus out of her and once I actually opened the door, she ran back inside and up into crate and curled up in the back of it. And there was no way she was coming back out. So I gave her, for the first time, a melatonin tablet to see what would happen. (Although I think you're normally supposed to give it before they have a scare.) When I got out of the shower about 20 minutes later, she got out of her crate to come see me and I was able to get her to go back outside. And by the time I left for work, she was just about back to her normal self. I have no idea if this was because of the melatonin or not. But normally this is something that would take her literally hours to get over. So who knows? I'm going to experiment with it a bit this weekend while we're out and about.

On the other hand, she's been telling me for some time that I really need to get them a dog door. Maybe she decided to take care of it herself.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Why does melatonin work to eliminate fear? Does that mean fearful dogs don't have enough (so it's not as much a mental/association problem as it is a chemical imbalance?)


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Here are a couple of good links about it:

http://webcanine.com/2007/melatonin-for-stress/

http://www.livestrong.com/health-article/thunderstorm-phobia_707fdd1b-9f9a-57af-a1f5-e3ddc00e16af/

I believe it's primarily used for noise sensitivity, some separation anxiety and seizures. But I thought I would give it a try on Mayzie and see if it made any difference in her generalized fears.

Many people take it as a natural sleep aid. However, it doesn't make dogs sleepy. Just makes them more calm when faced with fearful things. (And of course, it doesn't work on all dogs and it's not a cure-all by any means.)


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Nice crate (and great deal on the price - wow!)


Thanks, it is fabulous and very nice... I know- over $60 off??? Who could have passed that up, and it was the last one, too. 



> I'm glad Donatello took to it so easily! I think he's going to love it in there. It might even be his sanctuary.


Earlier this morning he put up a fuss going into it, not really a fuss- He just kept pulling back on his leash like a mule... In his defense, he knew I was going somewhere, so it wasn't the crate itself, it was the fact he had to stay home.  Talk about spoiled. I was gone from 10:00 until 12:45 today and he made not one peep until he heard my voice when I came home, then he whined- But in his defense again, he does that all the time when he's confined...



> He'll learn the crate command just by doing what you're doing - point him in, and say your command (mine is "bedtime", and "go crate" - "go" is like a prefix to tell him to move somewhere, so we have go potty, go crate, go downstairs, go on your spot, go shade, etc)
> 
> Doing that consistently, he'll learn the connection between you pointing him in and making your sounds (words) and assume one means the same as the other.


That's what I'm shooting for. 



> I didn't realize Donatello is that tall. I pictured him being about Wally's size or a touch smaller (like 10" tall). Wouldn't have ever guessed he's actually taller than Wally. (I think Wally is 14-15" from floor to head assuming his head is at normal position - I know he's 11" at the shoulder) : )


That's why I believe he's a Manchester-mix... He's all legs!! Seriously! My pictures of him don't do him justice, and yeah- He's about 18-19in. tall from paws to head... It's a rough estimate because he kept wanting to sniff the tape measure. 



ColoradoSooner said:


> Awww...look how happy and comfy Mr. Donatello looks in his new crate! Aren't you glad you decided to get it? (And that was a smokin' deal for sure!)


Oh I'm so happy I got it! Too happy, almost... You know it's bad when buying a dog-crate is all you talk about for weeks. lmao!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm going back and forth in regards to medicating Marge. 

We went for a short walk tonight, like literally 5 minutes, and she was okay until she saw two people pass in front of us and just couldn't fully pull herself back together after that. She just wanted to go home.

I let her eat a stuffed kong in the field not too far from where the construction is going on earlier in the day, and while she was definitely aware of the loud noises she did lay down and eat it for the most part.

But I'm really starting to be bothered by the fact that, most days, we aren't walking for more than a fifteen minutes, a half hour tops. I used to walk her at least double that on most days, or at least the walks weren't filled with constant hyperanalyzing of the environment and doling out continuous (fattening?) treats.

She's not much for toys, so if she plays for 5 or 10 minutes a day it's alot. She doesn't like to do agility in my backyard aside from the weave poles, so that's mostly out too. I've been feeding her less and using treat dispensers for at least one meal a day, but I just feel like the amount of training and exercise I'm doing right now is so darn little compared to what we did last month before all of this crap.

I'm going to give her 3mg of melatonin tomorrow and head to the park. Not sure which one yet. 

Alot of me really feels like Marge would feel so much better on the meds and hopefully could be weaned off of them, or just use them in the warm months like June through September. The other half of me worries about side effects and stuff like that.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Wininie I'm so happy to see you back in this thread! I've been wondering where you've been!


Thanks! Things have been a little busy lately so I've been bopping in and out without commenting.



> I fed her the remainder of her meal while in my driveway. I don't know whether it was productive or not. She seemed very distracted... she knows that if I hold an open palm of food that means she is to look at me and then I release her to eat it, but she wasn't readily offering eye contact  She did it after looking at her surroundings each time, but I don't know, she just kind of looked stressed. I would have played LAT but it's honestly so hard to do in that situation because she is looking at EVERYTHING.


That's a really good description of Poca when she's in concerned mode. Not outright fearful, but very distracted and looking at everything. She'll lick at a treat and eat a little, but she's not really paying it much attention. And she's not paying attention to me, either. She'll sit or do a down if I ask, but it's very robotic.

Sometimes I put her in a down stay and just stand beside her quietly for 5-10 minutes without saying anything or offering any treats. I just let her absorb everything. I figure that if she lays there long enough and nothing bad happens she'll learn that she doesn't have to be concerned.

Have you ever tried letting her absorb things with no input from you? I used the same technique to get Poca used to the park at the beach. She hated it at first because there were so many people and birds and cars and art that moved (!) -- just way too much for her to take in without worrying that one of those things was going to get her. So I would take her to the perimeter and let her hang out and watch it all. Then we'd walk the perimeter. With repetition I got her to move more and more into the center of the park toward the beach. Within a couple of months she would walk anywhere in the park and couldn't wait to get to the beach.

Sometimes, in these low-level concern situations, I wonder if the added pressure from me expecting something from her makes the situation worse. So far, I've used a one-size-fits-all desensitization routine with her but now I'm beginning to think I need to get more nuanced and treat each situation a little differently depending on what's happening with her. Not sure I know what that means. If anyone has any ideas, I'd be happy to hear them!

P.S.to Deege - that crate is awesome and Don looks so cute sitting in it! And hey, if I can get excited over a $1 tennis ball, you are certainly allowed to get excited about a crate. Ha!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Winnie, all my progress last summer with Marge was basically through what you said. Very similar to your beach/park thing, actually. We'd walk along the asphalt path at the beach for some distance, usually not very far but a decent walk, and then Marge would get rewarded and get to run around on the sand. I honestly can't remember even CARRYING treats with me back then.

I don't know what's different now. Sometimes I feel like doing that again would be flooding her. Sometimes I think about the rough days we've had as of late and it discourages me from going there. Maybe she's worse now than she was then. I don't really know..

The looming threat of loud noises/fireworks still hangs overhead. Maybe I'll start making a point of going back to the boardwalk and doing the same setup as last time.. I just don't want to push her.

I wish I could sit out front with her like I used to so she can watch the world go by from my front steps, but now that certain people spark her reactivity I don't really like to do that without giving out lots of treats.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I haven't followed as closely, MissMutt. Dogs and Medicine are not my forte because I know little to nothing about them... So, if you don't mind explaining to me what the "side-effects" are?

It does sound good that you're having faith it's working with her, even a little bit... That's how it started for me, I wasn't sure the tablets were working, and now I'm sure I see a difference, even a small one... I agree that even on medicine, it's not going to completely make Marge indifferent to her "triggers" or whatever you might call them... It might, at least for you, calm her _just_ enough that you can get through to her and help her through the rest- Whereas without the medicine you'd be blocked off from doing that... If that makes sense...

And I could be completely off-base here, so take my opinions with a grain of salt... Or sand...  lol. Whichever...

I'd like to say that if you keep at this enough, sooner or later you're going to just make a splendid break-through and then look back and say, _"Psh, that wasn't so hard..."_ ; ) I mean, it certainly looks possible from my perspective; I see Marge, who seems as scared as Donatello is at times, and she's able to do agility; Donatello _pees_ on the agility equipment, and runs tail-tucked under a bench if I try to coax him to jump through a hoop. lol...

I'm not sure what I'm trying to get at, it's really late for me, so I'll stop now so I don't start rambling and lose everyone!



winniec777 said:


> P.S.to Deege - that crate is awesome and Don looks so cute sitting in it! And hey, if I can get excited over a $1 tennis ball, you are certainly allowed to get excited about a crate. Ha!


Thank you very much! I feel much better knowing I'm not the only one!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't really know what side effects there are. I know that it can be a little tricky to get the right medicines at the right amounts. Some dogs react differently than others. Some dogs want to sleep 24/7 on a given med, others are woozy, others have paradoxical reactions and aggress. There's always the chance of medical side effects as well I'm sure.

It's not just "let me pop a pill in my dog's mouth so she'll feel better, but it's "let me try this one at this dosage, take blood to make sure all her levels are where they need to be, then reassess in three months." It's a big decision for me to make.

BTW I don't know if you realize that she isn't on medicine now, I'm just debating talking with my vet about it. Right now all she takes is melatonin.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm sure it is MissMutt, and I'm sorry if I made light of it; I actually didn't realize how _extensive_ this method would be.  I'm so used to people just doing the "pill popping" thing that I tend to forget that others out there really do care more about their dogs than just "doping" them up...

Well, either way- I really do support you MissMutt, and I feel sorry for you that this is so much work... It's people like you that show others how they _should_ treat their dogs.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Shocking newsflash. A friend is on leave from the army and is visiting. At THIS very moment my scared of everyone ESPECIALLY males Jonas is SITTING IN HIS LAP AND BEING PET. 

I almost did cartwheels in the yard. Jonas barely barked at him when he came in, and climbed onto him and is ignoring me. He's never met this guy before, either. He must have some sort of magic dog touch.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I don't know what's different now. Sometimes I feel like doing that again would be flooding her. Sometimes I think about the rough days we've had as of late and it discourages me from going there. Maybe she's worse now than she was then. I don't really know..
> 
> The looming threat of loud noises/fireworks still hangs overhead. Maybe I'll start making a point of going back to the boardwalk and doing the same setup as last time.. I just don't want to push her.
> 
> I wish I could sit out front with her like I used to so she can watch the world go by from my front steps, but now that certain people spark her reactivity I don't really like to do that without giving out lots of treats.


Not knowing what's different is key, isn't it? I can see exactly how you got to the position you're in. If you can't figure it out, meds seem like the only way to get through it because you can't train for something you can't identify. You're just feeling around in the dark at that point searching for triggers you may never find. I think if meds help to take the edge off while you retrain, it might be the best way to go. 

It's such a tough decision, though. Would be hard for me not to think that if I was just that much better at training, that much more capable, that I would be able to fix everything without the meds. But that's just my Catholic guilt peeking through.  Meds are a tool, just like anything else. 

I really wish I could see Marge's reactions in person. Sometimes I think I'm too close to Poca and can't see things in her that I can spot a mile away in other dogs. One trick I've used to try to get around this is to ask other people to watch Poca's ears or tail or body position while I focus on her surroundings. That sometimes helps me spot triggers that I might miss because I'm watching Poca too closely. Have you ever used a spotter for the walks? Just a thought. I just assume she sees and hears way more than I can and that the extra pair of eyes and ears can't hurt. 

Wonder if it would help if you posted a video of Marge on a walk....


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Maybe I'll try some vids tomorrow Winnie. If no one's around, it won't look like much is wrong. If she catches sight of someone and decides that person is out to get her, it's downhill from there.

Yet it's not _always_ a person, because then I have the noise issue too. And it can be REALLY weird sometimes.. she can be sniffing happily, hear something, not react and keep sniffing, and THEN when she's done sniffing be freaked out.

I think a big problem is that there's no way for me to isolate the triggers or divide them into sight/sound to work on separately. Because where there is noise, there are people (with the exception of T-Storms I guess), and where there are people there is usually noise. This is New York. Maybe not Manhattan (she'd have to be rehomed I lived in Manhattan, without a doubt), but it's a far cry from the forests and fields and mountains some of you guys have the luxury of living near. Wish I could move to the boondocks for a while..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

winniec777 said:


> It's such a tough decision, though. Would be hard for me not to think that if I was just that much better at training, that much more capable, that I would be able to fix everything without the meds. But that's just my Catholic guilt peeking through.  Meds are a tool, just like anything else.


I know it would be hard for me to go that route unless they actually cured the fear. If I still have the same fearful dog under the medicine-created calm exterior, I feel like I really didn't help his fear, just covered it up. 

Though I guess I'm fortunate to have a handler-oriented dog (and don't leave in New York City, though I'm not surrounded by just open fields and mountains). Make me less needing to find his exact trigger in a situation, but just manage/train the reaction to whatever set him off while working on generalizing confident/calm behavior. Maybe he's no longer "fearful", but now I'm just seeing his lack of socialization/confidence. I.e. he's the "worrier" in the pack. ("Help for Your Shy Dog" mentions packs tend to have "warriors" and "worrieres")





winniec777 said:


> I really wish I could see Marge's reactions in person. Sometimes I think I'm too close to Poca and can't see things in her that I can spot a mile away in other dogs. One trick I've used to try to get around this is to ask other people to watch Poca's ears or tail or body position while I focus on her surroundings. That sometimes helps me spot triggers that I might miss because I'm watching Poca too closely. Have you ever used a spotter for the walks? Just a thought. I just assume she sees and hears way more than I can and that the extra pair of eyes and ears can't hurt.
> 
> Wonder if it would help if you posted a video of Marge on a walk....


Spotters are an interesting idea. I let Wally walk ahead of me a some so I can see his tail and such easier while looking at the surroundings (even if still through my peripheral vision). If hear his tags rattling faster than usual, that's also a sign he's walking/moving faster so I look at him to see what's what. If they stop, then I know he's either frozen, or he's started to sniff something. 



MissMutt said:


> Yet it's not _always_ a person, because then I have the noise issue too. And it can be REALLY weird sometimes.. she can be sniffing happily, hear something, not react and keep sniffing, and THEN when she's done sniffing be freaked out.


Maybe sniffing was a distraction, so she had something to go back to, but then when she's sniffed it up the sound was still remembered, so she starts worrying about the sound. It's said dogs can remember a sound for up to two minutes (read this once back when starting training as to why you shouldn't repeat commands - they still remember what you said the first time - maybe they remember other sounds for even longer). 

Wally does the reverse, he'll stop sniffing and then even when the sound is over, is still worrying about it but still trying to sniff. Marge's way makes more sense in that at least she's sniffed whatever and then is too worried to find something else to sniff.

I never timed how long Wally stays worried about a sound, but maybe it's about that long...




MissMutt said:


> I think a big problem is that there's no way for me to isolate the triggers or divide them into sight/sound to work on separately. Because where there is noise, there are people (with the exception of T-Storms I guess), and where there are people there is usually noise. This is New York. Maybe not Manhattan (she'd have to be rehomed I lived in Manhattan, without a doubt), but it's a far cry from the forests and fields and mountains some of you guys have the luxury of living near. Wish I could move to the boondocks for a while..



Is it possible to train her that the whole environment is good? Dogs take everything into the context anyway, so this might not be as hard as it seems. I did this a little way back when starting with Wally. I just clicked and treated everything that happened, almost irregardless of his feelings about it. 

If he looked at everything, he got c/t for everything he looked at. So much as an ear twitch in to a sound, shifting his gaze from one thing to another, if he leaned around me to try to see something, C/T. Anything like that got him a C/T. 

That might have turned him into an alert, watchful dog (instead of one that's calm and "I don't care") but I'll take that. I'll take alert, watchful, and then look at me. No longer fear, but "Hey, did you see that? What should we do about it?"


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest - YAY for Jonas! What a terrific breakthrough!



KBLover said:


> I know it would be hard for me to go that route unless they actually cured the fear. If I still have the same fearful dog under the medicine-created calm exterior, I feel like I really didn't help his fear, just covered it up.


I think this is only true if the owner doesn't do anything to work with the dog while it's on meds. Obviously MissMutt has done tons of behavioral work with Marge but Marge has actually regressed. From what I've read (and actually seen with my own eyes with my cat), when given in the proper dosages, meds can make a dog more open to behavioral modification. If a dog is so afraid that it's not learning or progressing, using properly dosed medications is an available tool that should at least be considered.

MissMutt, the way you were describing your life with Marge earlier really sounds like her (and your) quality of life is suffering. Her world is getting smaller and smaller. For some people - like, say, my 86 year old grandmother and her dog - this wouldn't be a problem. But you're young...you have a young dog...and I'm sure you want to be able to share the larger world with her as your companion. Maybe you could give yourself a timeline. If X doesn't happen by this date, then I'm going to talk to the vet. As far as side effects go, remember that stress hormones take their own toll on the body so you just have to balance that out in your mind.

Man...I don't mean to come off sounding like a drug pusher here.  Like I said earlier, I truly don't think they're necessary in every situation. I think it's a really personal choice that each of us, having our dog's best interests at heart, has to come to terms with. No one can tell you what is right or wrong for your dog. You just have to go with your own instincts and knowledge.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that in "Help for Your Fearful Dog," Nicole Wilde talks about removing the dog from the trigger entirely for a week to let the stress hormones normalize. I realize that you can't remove all noises and people from Marge's life. But I'm wondering if there's any way at all you could cut out Marge's walks entirely for a week and let her decompress. It doesn't sound like she's getting much benefit from them as is anyway and it sounds like the stress of them is just building and building in her. Maybe try to tire her out mentally by learning some fun new games or something. Anyway, just a thought.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I have been thinking about setting a time ultimatum of sorts, but I feel like it's just so fuzzy. If it rains for the next week and no one is out but Marge is brilliant on her walks, is that progress? On the other hand, if we have thunderstorms all week and can't walk but Marge does okay otherwise, is that progress? If we walk around the block and only encounter people that Marge knows and likes but there are no loud noises from construction or anything, is that progress?

I think I'll definitely suffer through the rest of August with her, without a doubt. I do have a feeling that the cooler weather MIGHT bring back out the Marge I know and love. Because she's not a fan of the heat to begin with, I'm wondering if she's going to be that more quick to be afraid on a hot day as opposed to a cold day. Also, September will mean back to school for a lot of people and I know the time I used to walk her before college (around 9 AM) is a pretty dead time in my neighborhood.

We went for a walk in the woods today for about an hour and a half. She had 3 mg of melatonin before hand. I was glad to be able to have a day where I pretty much didn't have to worry about anything scaring her. We passed a couple of people (literally like 2 or 3 lol) and the only one who bothered her was a man who suddenly ran by (was jogging). But she didn't really get fearful, just perked up, some hackles raised. Calmed down very very quickly after, no after affects I'd say.

She did make her displeasure apparent when we wandered up close to where the boy scouts were. She heard the loud noises and voices and didn't want to go on any further. She didn't freak, but her body language changed and she got all nervous. Since we had already been there so long I didn't push it and we turned around. We were there to get AWAY from people and simply exercise, so I think going on would have been counterproductive.

As for the meds, I definitely wouldn't be using them just to mask the issue. We will go out and train. We'll continue doing counterconditioning during storms, fireworks, etc and playing all the games we've been playing. If she goes on them, I don't think she'll stay on them forever, BUT as I've said before I wouldn't be opposed at all to a drug plan for every single summer after this. I'll ALWAYS have a summer Marge and a winter Marge, I'm afraid.

BTW Colorado, did you see the post Debbie made on the fearfuldogs blog? I thought it was interesting since you said there was a debate on the Yahoo list. Very interesting read, for any of you.

http://fearfuldogs.wordpress.com/2009/08/05/pill-popping/


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Just read the link, and this response by fearfuldogs to a comment pretty much sums up my concern:

"I did and have never taken him off of it, but some folks are able to wean their dogs from the meds and retain the improved behavior."

This seems to imply the without the meds, the behavior change disappears - does that mean the dog doesn't really learn (because would a learned behavior disappear like that?) or if the medication alters the emotional part of the context, so without the meds, the emotions return, and he still doesn't know what to do with the return of the fear?


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

You know, I'm not sure about that KB. I know with the woman who writes the blog, her dog was an extreme case. Rescued from a hoarder after Hurricane Katrina. Little to no human contact before she adopted him. He was just in a terrible, almost psychotic state. I would imagine that is why she's never taken him off of it. However, with him on the meds, they've made remarkable progress, even though he still has quite a lot of fear 3 years later. I think for her, she feels that the meds give him a quality of life that he simply would not have without them. It would be interesting to know how Sunny would react if she did wean him off. I have a feeling that he would not revert back to his original state due to the extensive behavioral work she's done with him. But he's a very, very damaged dog so she simply may not feel that it's worth taking the risk.

And of course, there are dogs, like people, who have a chemical imbalance that medications correct. And just like people, if you were to take them off the meds, the imbalance would return.

However, I have a feeling for dogs like Mayzie, meds would only be an tool to help her along her journey. If, for instance, we come to an impasse that we can't train past or if she begins to regress rather than go forward, possibly using medication as a tool to get her "over the hump," so to speak might be an option. And then weaning her off it later.

And like I said, I might talk to our vet about situational medication for special circumstances. A couple of months ago we went to visit family. We were in my sister's back yard and something (I have NO idea what), terrified Mayzie. She was literally blind with fear. She bolted and hit the back fence and then curled up in a corner, shaking. The look on her face was utterly heartbreaking. My hubby had to pick her up and carry her back in the house. I promised myself then that I would do everything I could to keep her from ever reaching that state again. And if medication can help me keep that promise, I'm all for it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KB, you have to consider that Debbie's dog, Sunny, is nothing like Wally or Marge or Mayzie or Donnie or Poca. He was TOTALLY non-functioning when she got him, and still fights many demons I am sure. She did say that she hasn't _tried_ taking him off of the meds - which means she doesn't know for sure what kind of behaviors she'd see from him if he wasn't on them any more. The behavior change might disappear or it might not. His progress is so slow that I don't think he's at the point yet where it would be feasible to take him off of them.

I would venture to guess that the dogs who are able to be weaned off of medicines rather quickly are the ones who are relatively highly functioning and just need that extra "umph" in certain situations. It's kind of like people.. some people need anti-anxieties long term.. other people go through a crisis, take meds and then are done with them after a short time.

I do wonder, though, if a dog is on meds long enough and is presented with it's triggers enough times during that period such that it develops a proper or normal response to them over and over, if weaning off the meds really would affect the behavior. The way I see it is that the dogs don't know they're being medicated - could it really be as simple as the dog suddenly feeling weird one day when the medication levels dip too low, and all of a sudden he says in his mind, "uhhh I'm afraid of this again"? Or is the behavior so learned in the dog's mind that the medicine starts to "not matter" anymore? It's an interesting question for sure.

I won't lie, though - the "weaning off" issue is a huge one in my mind - because I really don't know how I'd feel keeping Marge on meds forever. I know I _shouldn't_ feel that way if it's helping her live a normal life, but.. that's human nature I guess.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I do wonder, though, if a dog is on meds long enough and is presented with it's triggers enough times during that period such that it develops a proper or normal response to them over and over, if weaning off the meds really would affect the behavior. The way I see it is that the dogs don't know they're being medicated - could it really be as simple as the dog suddenly feeling weird one day when the medication levels dip too low, and all of a sudden he says in his mind, "uhhh I'm afraid of this again"? Or is the behavior so learned in the dog's mind that the medicine starts to "not matter" anymore? It's an interesting question for sure.


Hmm...if the dog says "I'm afraid again" that would mean that fear is almost an operant response - i.e. a decision the dogs makes. This makes me think there's different kinds of fear. Perhaps the meds are for the kind of fear that's always like "OMG" to everything. Sunny, based on the description you gave, would seem to be along these lines, and about as much as possible considering the circumstances the poor dog had to suffer through before Sunny met Debbie. 

So if Sunny is still at the point in his mind where everything is still OMG, then it probably wouldn't be too much of a difference yet, and, given that she works a lot with her dogs, I'm sure this is what she's seeing. 

But for other dogs, where the fear might be an actual decision, perhaps then the meds aren't needed as much - becomes like the situational anxiety examples you and ColoradoSooner gave, and just more behaviorial work will eventually bring them around.

I guess, what I'm saying is that if the fear is more "rational" than emotional, then CC/OC probably is the biggest thing needed with management of any fear reactions. If it's emotional or a mental/chemical imbalance - then the meds are probably required if not highly needed.

If it's more a matter of the reactions being waaaaaay over the top or creating self-fulfilling cycles or chains that you can break into and change, the meds would help downplay the reactions more than anything else, letting you break and create new chains.

Does that make sense to anyone but me?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Hmm...if the dog says "I'm afraid again" that would mean that fear is almost an operant response - i.e. a decision the dogs makes. This makes me think there's different kinds of fear. Perhaps the meds are for the kind of fear that's always like "OMG" to everything. Sunny, based on the description you gave, would seem to be along these lines, and about as much as possible considering the circumstances the poor dog had to suffer through before Sunny met Debbie.


To me, if the dog did well on medicines and then said "I'm afraid again" after being weaned off, that would imply to me not that fear is operant, but that the fear is almost physiological - that whatever neurochemicals or hormones that were suppressed or unsuppressed by the drug are the ones responsible for the dog having a reaction. I would actually view it as being the opposite of operant, because the dog _wouldn't_ be thinking about it, but instead would just be going based on how his body feels, I guess. It's hard to explain. 

What do you mean by fear being a decision? Can you give an example of a dog who's "rationally/irrationally" afraid, and a dog who is "emotionally" afraid?

I guess the best way to figure it out is to research _how_ exactly the medicines work. Like, what do they do from a physiological/biological perspective other than just "calm the dog down." I can honestly say I don't know the answer to that question, lol.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> What do you mean by fear being a decision? Can you give an example of a dog who's "rationally/irrationally" afraid, and a dog who is "emotionally" afraid?


If a dog reads the situation and then becomes afraid, I think of that as rational fear. It would be like if you saw someone with a gun and say "Give me your money or else". That's a situation you would rationally be afraid in (i.e. it's a situation that appears to present a threat of harm to you)

An irrational fear would be if the immediate reaction is just being afraid without reading the situation. Like if a dog hears a sound and just runs away. To me, that's not rational. That sound could have been made by nothing at all, and instead of investigating, or being wary/watchful - the dog just runs for the hills. 

Like if Wally just runs from a dog on sight - that would be irrational. He's not reading the other dog, isn't communicating and then things went sour, or getting a signal he didn't like. He's not staying around long enough to do any of those things. So I would say that's irrational - just based on OMG a dog, I'm gonna die! reaction.

I think the fear in a "rational" situation is operant. The dog is looking at the situation and saying "I better watch out/get out of here. A fearful dog of this type would be overly paranoid/hypervigiliant. I think that kind of fear is workable through CC/OC alone, unless the resulting behavior is so much that the dog just stops doing anything else. Then the meds could come into play and give the handler a chance.

Again, I could be way off base - but based on what I've seen with Wally's reactions, I can see a clear distinction between his two types of fear reactions, especially over time where it's more the "rational" than "irrational" type.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> An irrational fear would be if the immediate reaction is just being afraid without reading the situation. Like if a dog hears a sound and just runs away. To me, that's not rational


Thaaaaat's Marge.

Just happened tonight - MORE. F#$%ING FIREWORKS. I cannot believe it. (The one good thing I can say is that I was able to get her out of hiding very quickly with the FEAST game, popped another 1.5 mg of melatonin into her mouth and now she's laying next to me flat out on her side dozing off. So something's working, because she used to be inconsolable for at least the first few minutes after a boom.)

I don't really know whether there are or are not different types of fear reactions, but I can tell you - more often than not, Marge's fear reactions are of the "let me not even figure out what it was, let me just get the heck out of here!" 

The only time I can say that's she's "rationally" afraid based on your logic is with men.. because she WILL sniff men most of the time, but still won't allow pets or any real interaction besides treat giving because she assesses them (over and over and over again) as a threat.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Yeah, I don't know if my thinking has any merits (and it's hard to bounce them against other information as it seems to be hard to find fearful dog info beyond the basic information everyone here knows inside and out), but after reading about different experiences and ways fear manifests in various fearful dogs, it seems there's something else going on - otherwise, wouldn't all fearful dogs react in the same general manner (immediately go straight to fight/flight/freeze/shut down)? 

You're seeing it with Marge. You identified a situation where she's cautiously okay (kinda like a yellow light) and will accept the presence of men, just as long as they don't reach for/try to touch her. Then she throws up the stop sign. Marge with men is a lot like Wally with dogs (and kids, depending).

Most other times, she's like "Screw this" and wants out. That's where you step in with your CC and help her with some melatonin and break the chain.

I think there's different mental processes going on there (lead us all to take different actions) - even if they both lead to the same fearful response should things go to a place she's not ready for them to go.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

The only other explanation I can think of is that she finds fireworks to be more threatening than the presence of a man. Rather than having to do how she processes the fear, it could also have to do with how afraid of the Evil Thing she actually is.

Could also have to do with exposure.. living in a house with a man means she is exposed to at least one male on a daily basis. Fireworks, although they've been seemingly a daily experience this summer, she doesn't experience as often, and thus kind of CAN be more afraid of it.

Why not ask on the Yahoo group? I bet you'd get some varying responses, and Debbie herself (who I admit, I really consider the pro at fearful dog handling lol) usually chimes in.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Well that was nice. A 6:15 AM, 45 minute walk with no one out, very few sounds to bother us, just an open grassy field filled with a whole lot of nothing.

Oh, the things I do for my dog.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

MissMutt--glad you got to have a nice morning walk with Marge today. Those really are so refreshing, aren't they? I can't believe how long you've been dealing with the fireworks where you live! Goodness! That would really be frustrating...

I had some company over last night, most of whom Brenna had already met before. The first person to arrive, however, was DH's sister, whom Brenna had not met before. Brenna was sleeping when the front door opened, and I think it startled her awake because she acted really alarmed when this "intruder" walked into the house. Bren has this funny little half-bark that she does sometimes...like she wants to bark, but isn't sure if the situation is serious enough to merit actually opening her mouth and letting sound come out. It is rather comical, and this is what she did when Amy arrived. Eventually, Brenna relaxed enough to come over and sniff her, but she wasn't up to petting until more people started coming. 

It seemed that with every new person that came, Brenna became more outgoing. By the end of the evening, she was walking around the table where we were playing a game, letting different people pet her. She even relaxed enough to lie down on her big pillow in the kitchen with us a couple of times. Of course, being a collie, she is always watchful and alert when people are in the house...but I must say that she seems to be getting braver these days.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Well, it's nice to read two good stories about Marge and Brenna! I remember visiting shopping malls at odd hours just so there wouldn't be that many people and cars around.  I still do it occasionally. We get funny looks from people who don't understand why I'm marching all over the parking lot, coming closer, backing off, just standing there (usually singing or humming, lol!), running backwards, putting Poca in a down-stay while I stroll around 30 ft away, heeling in squares, etc. Must look pretty strange to folks who don't know what I'm doing. Most will recognize training but they have to be wondering why the heck I'm doing it in the grocery store parking lot. In three years of owning Poca in two different states, I can honestly say I've never seen anyone training a dog at a strip mall.

"That's a long leash!"
"Pretty dog - what is it?"
"Oh, she looks like a good girl!"
"Is that a wolf?!"
"Don't go near the doggie, honey, she's busy working." (That one makes me smile)

Speaking of comments from other people...I took Poca to a dog park near work, hoping the fencing would be high enough that we could go there early early on a weekend morning (e.g. 5:00) and have the run of the place without encountering anyone. No such luck on the fencing, so we won't be going there. But as we were leaving an older gentleman with this gorgeous doberman was entering the park and shoving crackers in front of all the dog's faces (3 of us were leaving as he was entering). I pulled Poca back as he was trying to shove a cracker (a cracker?!) in her mouth and said she couldn't have it because she was on a special diet. He said something strange like it's just the owners who want the diet and I smiled and walked away, saying, no, I'm pretty sure the vet is the one who prescribed it. 

Very strange encounter. (1) who would shove food into a strange dog's face (a) at a dog park and (b) without asking? (2) who brings food to a dog park? (3) who brings HUMAN food to feed dogs at a dog park? (4) How do I know it wasn't some crackpot trying to poison my dog??

I'm so glad Poca didn't snap at him - he got right next to her before I realized what he was trying to do. She sniffed the cracker but I quickly moved her out of the way. Like I said, strange. But a win in that she didn't bark or growl at him. Yipee!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I wouldn't bring food to a dog park more for fear of getting swarmed by a pack of hungry dogs!


Wally had an encounter with a couple dogs just a few moments ago. One ran up to him. I told him "sit" when he started coming up and he did, immediately. The dog started growling and snarling at him and try to grab him (looked like it would have been rough play, but I wasn't going to take any chances that a) Wally would see it as play, and b) it wasn't an attempted bite/nip - especially since Wally doesn't "know" these dogs)

Then the other one comes up (I guess thinking his buddy was facing a 2-vs-1 situation, but he didn't do much except growl and staring at me. Wally was like, "don't try it" and stood up and took a couple steps towards the dog (which was interesting - he never did that before). I rubbed his back to settle him back into a sit and just stayed between him and the two dogs.

Fortunately, I was able to help calm things down between the three dogs and the two dogs' owner was there and came over to gather up his two little furballs and no harm was done. Just ended up being a lot of growling and posturing.

Wally wasn't scared either. No shaking or anything. Probably was just play overall (especially since his tail was up and he was all bouncy afterwards) but it was...interesting.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Yeah, I just think he was being friendly. He was a nice guy and his dog was in beautiful condition, so I wasn't really alarmed. It just surprised me since I was focused on negotiating the double gates and wasn't expecting someone to be offering my dog food. 

Sounds like Wally had a bit of excitement. It's unnerving to be rushed like that. Glad to hear he did well!


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Had an ok day today at the family gathering. Ended up being at my folks' house vs. ours, which is always more stressful for Poca. Minuses: she spent most of the time we were there wanting to bolt out the back door, tail tucked, hyper alert.  But she sniffed tall males and didn't back away from them. And no matter how stressed she was, she would still eat peanut butter from anyone who offered, even my tall 16 year old nephew with the loud voice who scares her. Good girl!!  Baby steps....

She experienced her first hail storm today. About 5 minutes before it hit she was staring out the back windows and barking. She rarely barks, so it was a little surprising. Couldn't see any critters back there, so I wonder if she heard the hail coming. It was pretty big - about 1/2 inch chunks that smacked the windows pretty hard. Didn't seem concerned about the lightning or thunder, which is good. So who knows.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yep - baby steps. I'm glad she didn't turn down peanut butter - then you'd know something was REALLY bothering her! I know she loves that stuff.

We walked for only a few minutes today, the humidity was oppressive and I didn't want to push her. Seemed okay passing people near the field. Just kinda tried to leave her to her own devices without too much interference from me. Went to my Grandma's too.. figured it'd get her out of the house and I know she really likes it there.

Thinking about going for another 6AM walk tomorrow, it's supposed to be like 100 degrees here in the afternoon.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

IN NEW YORK! It's not even 100 degrees here! Unless you're pulling our legs. lol.

Well... Today I've started Donatello's schedule. As posted here: Schedule I was looking to get some feed back from you guys on this thread, about if you think this would help or hurt Donatello at this point...

I took him out this morning, on his leash, in the front-yard... He did pee, then we came back in and went through his list of tricks once, then I finished by telling him to "go in his crate". Which yesterday I worked for an hour to get him to come in and out of it on command. 

So he'll be in crate until 10:15 this morning. (Which works fine for me because I have to go to the store, and he usually takes a nap around that time anyway.) I modified that schedule a little bit and I did rearrange the "crate-time" and the "play-time" and lengthened a few, and stretched a few. 

I haven't used the anti-stress tablets, I'm hoping to get through a week of this, and how he reacts during the day when I bring him out of the crate will give me a clue if I should use them or not.

I hope everyone had a good weekend with their dogs! 

**READ MY SIGNATURE** 
Honk to yourself if you hate Mondays too!  lmao.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi all - I was offline all weekend so I'm just getting caught up.

Deege - HONK!  

I think your schedule looks good. I can't think of any way I'd change it.

CocoaCream - That's so great about Brenna's social evening. I just love hearing stories like that.

MissMutt & KB - Looks like I missed an interesting conversation. And boy, do I have a great example of irrational fear this weekend. We took the dogs to Starbucks and I stayed outside while hubby went to order and I hooked their leashes on my chair. Mayzie was doing okay. She was vigilant but she wasn't trying to curl up in a ball under the table. She was sitting next to me, taking everything in, eating treats, etc. I'd given her some melatonin before we went to see if it would help and it definitely seemed to take the edge off.

When hubby got back, he forgot to bring me sugar for my coffee so I went inside to get some. Well, when I came back, there was coffee everywhere and Mayzie was shaking all over. Apparently, when I got up, so did she...pulling the chair behind her...which scared her...and she tried to get away...and the chair just kept following her...which sent her into total, blind panic. Hubby said if he hadn't caught her when he did, she probably would've taken out half the tables on the patio. Ugh! Well, like I said, she was trembling all over and wouldn't take treats so we decided to go ahead and leave. She seemed to calm down fairly quickly once we were back at the truck, but she was definitely on edge the rest of the day.

It's just one of those typical fearful dog scenarios where you think everything's going along pretty good, you're making good progress and then BAM! in a split second, everything goes horribly awry. Sigh.

On a good note, I went to the orientation for Mayzie's clicker class and I'm very excited about it. Can't wait to start! She said something in the class that I thought I would share with you all, because I think we can all relate to it:

Love the dog you have...not the dog you wish you had.

This is definitely something I need to keep in mind when I think, "I just want a dog that I can take to Starbucks without utter chaos ensuing."


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Love the dog you have...not the dog you wish you had.
> 
> This is definitely something I need to keep in mind when I think, "I just want a dog that I can take to Starbucks without utter chaos ensuing."


I've definitely tried to step up a little more to this mindset rather than worry about tiny specifics of what my dog can and can't do. 

My only exception is agility. If we can't train in agility, I will feel that she and I both will have absolutely nothing. I need to ensure that that doesn't ever change.

*Deege*, my only problem with your schedule is that you can't expect to adhere to it completely. There will be days where he doesn't feel like playing, or your training session goes amiss after 30 seconds. As long as you know to give in to him to some degree when he's stressed or bored or just uninterested in something, then I think you'll be fine. On the other hand, if you're fighting tooth and nails with him through a training session just because you want to be in charge or stick to schedule or something, you will have problems. Schedules are pretty good ideas, as long as you allow for flexibility. I DO think crate time is an excellent idea though.

*CS* - that's too bad about Mayzie  I can picture that scene right now. Breaks my heart. I HATE that mode of total panic. It kills me to see or hear about it. Hopefully there wont be any behavioral repercussions from it. I'd guess it'll be fine, though.

I took Marge on another walk early in the morning. Since it was a weekday it was a little more busy out, but she did alright. The garbage truck was off in the distance yet again, but she was okay with it for the most part. A friggin' off leash dog came up to us though, and the owner gave the usual "He's friendly!" but I just shot back "Mine's not!" Marge was interested in the dog, a black lab, and they did sniff noses a little bit but I stood in between them and attempted to clip my extra leash to his collar, but couldn't get it on. The guy came and got his dog, pulled him to the side and started reprimanding him  What an idiot, the dog will never learn to come to him.

The only things that scared her were a park ranger over by one of the baseball diamonds, she made a big arch to avoid going near him. I was going to tell him about the incident with the dog, but the guy had leashed the dog and went the other way so I figured nothing would be done about it. She did see the garbage truck up close and initially gave the "AHH GOTTA GET AWAY GOTTA GET AWAY" response, but settled down quickly and went to sniff a post in the ground.

We also encountered a stray, but I let him pass in front of us. He was far away, but it was a tense moment. I had my extra leash all ready to slip over his head lol.

All in all, a pretty good walk.

The one thing I have been noticing is that on my trips to my Grandma's with Marge, she looks like she wants to walk up the block, whereas in MY neighborhood she hesitates. I think it has partially to do with the puppies who live across the street from my Grandma's (she loves them) but she tries to go in other directions as well. I don't know whether to give in to her and let her walk, or wait until less people are out so that I know it'll be a positive experience.

Oh BTW I wasn't exaggerating about 100 degrees  Though they did change the forecast so it's only going to hit about 93, it originally said it'd feel like 103 by mid afternoon between the heat and humidity. Its hot as heck out there now, glad we walked this morning.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Deege, my only problem with your schedule is that you can't expect to adhere to it completely. There will be days where he doesn't feel like playing, or your training session goes amiss after 30 seconds. As long as you know to give in to him to some degree when he's stressed or bored or just uninterested in something, then I think you'll be fine. On the other hand, if you're fighting tooth and nails with him through a training session just because you want to be in charge or stick to schedule or something, you will have problems. Schedules are pretty good ideas, as long as you allow for flexibility. I DO think crate time is an excellent idea though.


Oh yeah, MissMutt, I agree 100%; The items in the "schedule" is to be solid and concrete, but the times can vary, give and take of course. Like today, He's being crated right now, and he'll come out of his crate 45 minutes earlier then the time I wrote down... Which is fine, as long as I'm doing everything on that schedule every day is fine with me.



> I took Marge on another walk early in the morning. Since it was a weekday it was a little more busy out, but she did alright. The garbage truck was off in the distance yet again, but she was okay with it for the most part. A friggin' off leash dog came up to us though, and the owner gave the usual "He's friendly!" but I just shot back "Mine's not!" Marge was interested in the dog, a black lab, and they did sniff noses a little bit but I stood in between them and attempted to clip my extra leash to his collar, but couldn't get it on. The guy came and got his dog, pulled him to the side and started reprimanding him  What an idiot, the dog will never learn to come to him.


Some people will never learn... If we were getting beat, hit, or smacked around for not listening, would we want to come to the person causing the pain? _Not really_!! So in a dog's mind, which is similar than ours, we can't expect that either... **Pfft**, some people!



> Oh BTW I wasn't exaggerating about 100 degrees  Though they did change the forecast so it's only going to hit about 93, it originally said it'd feel like 103 by mid afternoon between the heat and humidity. Its hot as heck out there now, glad we walked this morning.


WOW! It's close to the 90's here... Strangely enough it's not been too hotter than that... Which is somewhat unusual...



ColoradoSooner said:


> I think your schedule looks good. I can't think of any way I'd change it.


Thanks, I appreciate a little conformation really... Like I've said, everyone around me is like, _"Why are you doing that? Give the dog a break. Why does he need to do all that stuff? Can't he just be a dog?"_ I'm like, _"Ya, he is a dog, but I'm going to train that outta him! It's not like dogs aren't smart enough to train them manners."_ Then they just roll their eyes, or ignore me. But you know what... I think my schedule is great, in my opinion. Donatello's day is filled with activites. He gets conditioned to his crate, he gets two or three five minute training sessions, and on top of that he gets like 4 hours every day to hang out with the dogs around here. I think that is more than reasonable.



> It's just one of those typical fearful dog scenarios where you think everything's going along pretty good, you're making good progress and then BAM! in a split second, everything goes horribly awry. Sigh.


I know how that is... All I can offer is that it does get better with time... 



> Love the dog you have...not the dog you wish you had.


That's beautiful.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

deege39 said:


> Thanks, I appreciate a little conformation really... Like I've said, everyone around me is like, _"Why are you doing that? Give the dog a break. Why does he need to do all that stuff? Can't he just be a dog?"_ I'm like, _"Ya, he is a dog, but I'm going to train that outta him! It's not like dogs aren't smart enough to train them manners."_ Then they just roll their eyes, or ignore me. But you know what... I think my schedule is great, in my opinion. Donatello's day is filled with activites. He gets conditioned to his crate, he gets two or three five minute training sessions, and on top of that he gets like 4 hours every day to hang out with the dogs around here. I think that is more than reasonable.


Quite honestly, Deege, I think Donatello is a really lucky dog to have someone who obviously cares about him so much, spends so much time on him and with him, and who, yes, expects a lot out of him.

I have a friend who has 3 rhodesian ridgebacks. They are very nice dogs but I feel sorry for them. They never get any exercise because she doesn't have the time to walk them, and she has never been to an obedience class with any of them. She loves them dearly and goes above and beyond with medical care, etc. But these dogs are extremely frustrated both mentally and physically. I can't imagine how much better off they'd be with an owner like the ones on this thread (including YOU!) who work day in and day out with their dogs to give them a more rich, satisfying life.



> CS - that's too bad about Mayzie I can picture that scene right now. Breaks my heart. I HATE that mode of total panic. It kills me to see or hear about it. Hopefully there wont be any behavioral repercussions from it. I'd guess it'll be fine, though.


Thanks...I'm hoping that we don't have any big setbacks from it. After that incident, I made the decision to talk to my vet about situational meds. We have an appt. for Thursday. When she goes into that type of panic mode, she could literally harm herself because she is not thinking...just reacting. We were close to a busy street and if my hubby hadn't caught her, she could easily have run into the street and been hit. Same kind of thing when she panicked at my sister's house and hit the fence. She could've broken her neck! I just feel like I need to do everything possible to keep her from getting to that level of fear ever again. And I'm hoping that it will allow us to do more behavioral work in the places where she really needs it the most.

By the way, I don't know if you saw this on the Fearful Dog list, but I thought it was an interesting and informative read (written by Dr. Overall). Some of it's very clinical but it gave me some additional things to chew on, so to speak. She also talks about pairing meds with behavior modification in order to create a safe feeling for dogs and change their association with the thing that scares them:

http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=136493&sk=&date=&&pageID=1


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Quite honestly, Deege, I think Donatello is a really lucky dog to have someone who obviously cares about him so much, spends so much time on him and with him, and who, yes, expects a lot out of him.


Yeah, that's actually the dilemma I face; Most people are like, _"He's a dog, you can't expect that much out of him,"_ and I'm the type that completely disagrees. I do care about Donatello, a _ton_, this schedule is more or less for me; So when I move out I don't have to break bad habits and instill in him the ones he used to know. At the same time it's beneficial for him to have this schedule, he gets used to his crate, he gets used to me not being in the same room with him 24/7, and I think he'll start appreciating the time he has out of the crate... Like lately he's started playing fetch with me, and actually bringing it back. My step-mother asked me, _"Are you sure he doesn't think he's being punished?"_ Well, not really... I took an hour or so yesterday and kept making him go in and come out on command... Praising him all the while... The schedule I have now, after he eats his meal for the day he goes in his crate for a second time, but I also add another tablespoon of soft-dog food in the dish hanging on the door... 

So now when I say, _"Go in your crate,"_ he knows what it means and he hops to it.

Like I said, even though doing all this heavy training is for my peace of mind, it's also for him; Dogs who have a place in the family, who know their place and aren't confused over what's expected of them, I believe they're happier and more content...


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

deege39 said:


> Dogs who have a place in the family, who know their place and aren't confused over what's expected of them, I believe they're happier and more content...


That's especially true for fearful dogs, don't you think? Especially those that come from bad situations. To have a predictable routine and reliable humans goes a long way toward helping them with their issues, I believe.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I agree with that 100%. When Donatello gets confused over what I'm asking him to do, or if I happen to let a behavior slack then try to correct it, he becomes very skittish or fearful... 

I believe that it's in Donatello's nature to _not_ like having so much responsibility, but in the same breath, he feels better having them... It's like he subconciously, or conciously, knows that having me with him and demanding so much out of him is actually more comforting to him then me just allowing him to cower under a table.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think a routine goes a long way, too. I've tried to make things as predictable as possible for Marge, give or take a little bit. Especially at night, our routine is pretty much always the same.. food, hang out for a while, agility session, potty break around 9. During the day it's a little more flexible, but I wish it could be more fixed.

I'm thinking about making our long morning walk a routine, but honestly I don't know if I can bring myself to get up that early every single day. LOL. Maybe I'll do it 2 or 3 times a week. It is really helping her though it seems.. as I posted before, we did it again this morning. And we just went out now for about 10 minutes, there were kids playing ball and Marge wasn't scared.. at all.. so I'm really thinking being alone in the field and having a positive experience there all by herself is helping her alot for when there ARE distractions. And I thought she'd be the _opposite_ and NOT want to walk given that it's so hot.

I love walking her at night, because there's even LESS people around, but it's just too scary for her when she sees something. A person at night is more scary than a person during the day.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I love walking her at night, because there's even LESS people around, but it's just too scary for her when she sees something. A person at night is more scary than a person during the day.


Wally's the same way - night time stuff seems to agitate him twice as much.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It never used to be this way, KB, but since this fear-hump we've been going over, she is SO edgy at night.

Honestly, I think I'm going to give in to it until the cold weather when I know for sure that nothing is going to pop out at her and scare her. I feel like right now I'd be doing a disservice to her to walk her around the block at night only for a firework to go off or someone to slam their car door, or a person try to come up to us, etc. It's more important to me to focus on walking her during the day and having her be 100% comfortable before I start tackling the night issue.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> When hubby got back, he forgot to bring me sugar for my coffee so I went inside to get some. Well, when I came back, there was coffee everywhere and Mayzie was shaking all over. Apparently, when I got up, so did she...pulling the chair behind her...which scared her...and she tried to get away...and the chair just kept following her...which sent her into total, blind panic. Hubby said if he hadn't caught her when he did, she probably would've taken out half the tables on the patio. Ugh! Well, like I said, she was trembling all over and wouldn't take treats so we decided to go ahead and leave. She seemed to calm down fairly quickly once we were back at the truck, but she was definitely on edge the rest of the day.


Ugh 

I've learned to tell Wally "stay" every time I get up if I don't want him following me. I've not tied him to a chair like this, but sometimes I do on the fence post or gate latch like if I forgot my cell phone or a poop bag, etc and I don't want to bring him back in for 20 seconds just to bring him back out.

He tried to follow me, but realized he's suddenly "stuck" in place and it makes him nervous and he tries to pull against this invisible force stopping him from moving around. When I come back, he's panting and shaking and looking at me like "Help me, please!" 

So now, I tell him "stay" and have worked it to death. 

Hopefully, the events haven't pushed Mayzie backwards in her progress. 

I certainly agree with loving the dog you have, not the one you want - but that doesn't stop me from trying my best to make him into both what I want and what makes him a better dog.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm glad to hear some things are working for you MissMutt, that your finding loop-holes in Marge's behavior... Those are always great...

Donatello had a few of those, where I could get him to do something he didn't really want to do but do it in a sneaky kind of way. lol. 

Routines are great, I echo that... I sit here now, Donatello's in my room loose, relaxing; But I sit here and see my step-mother's dogs... They know a few things, like "sit" and "speak", things like that... But they know absolutely _no_ behaviors. Like, when someone comes to the door, they bark and holler like there's a fire outside; Then they race you to the door and it becomes a giant fiasco just to get the visitor inside without letting the troops out.  My step-mother does keep mentioning she'd wish she would/could do something different with her dogs.

I actually told her not to bother. She's not strong enough to get these dogs to mind her... She'd sooner give up but in the mean-time cause conflicts with her dogs. If she didn't have three dogs, one being a 6-month PUG puppy, I'd say try it...

These dogs have been this way for so many years now, and they are _very_ stubborn, (perfect example of dogs not knowing their place.) and it would take far too long to try and reshape any behavior... A professional could probably do it, but like I said, she'd sooner give up then stick it out, which is why I just suggested she not start.

I do envy that her dogs are "perfect" dogs, they're not scared of people... Freckles is scared of Thunder, but a lot of perfectly sane dogs are...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> It never used to be this way, KB, but since this fear-hump we've been going over, she is SO edgy at night.
> 
> Honestly, I think I'm going to give in to it until the cold weather when I know for sure that nothing is going to pop out at her and scare her. I feel like right now I'd be doing a disservice to her to walk her around the block at night only for a firework to go off or someone to slam their car door, or a person try to come up to us, etc. It's more important to me to focus on walking her during the day and having her be 100% comfortable before I start tackling the night issue.



Yeah, it seems she's in a fragile state right now. One thing at a time for sure.

Wally was like scared, but also wants/needs a end-of-the-night walk (pee break mostly) so he's got to get out there - not having him make puddles and piles inside! 

It's like "I'm scared...but I want to walk...and I need to pee...but I'm scared!" I'd see him like moving around all fast, tail low and he's like "can we make this quick?" But then he gets out there - is fine...until a motorcycle goes by or he hears voices "out of nowhere" or something. (Even worse is if there's a large dog barking fiercely)

Then I have to get very "insisting" that he pee/poop. As much as I like to give consideration for his fear - last thing he needs is me getting mad because I woke up to a mess in the morning.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I know what you mean KB. I don't know what I'd do if I didn't have a backyard for Marge to pee and poop in. As small as it is, its still a yard, and it's served me well.. even if she doesn't like doing agility in the grass anymore (I think she smells the pee). I am working on getting her to go in one spot, though.

I certainly don't envy you guys who have to leash up for potty breaks.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I've learned to tell Wally "stay" every time I get up if I don't want him following me.


Yeah...I'm going to have to work on this. I forget how much bigger (and stronger) she is than Ranger. When Ranger gets to the end of the leash, he stops. When Mayzie gets to the end of the leash, all hell breaks loose apparently. 



KBLover said:


> I certainly agree with loving the dog you have, not the one you want - but that doesn't stop me from trying my best to make him into both what I want and what makes him a better dog.


Ha! Yes! Totally agree with this. The trainer was great because she has a Tibetan Terrier that she shows and who has won tons of awards. Then she has two APBTs that have won tons of agility awards. And finally she has an APBT/GSP mix that she's had for 5 years and has yet to win anything. She said that she still only comes 60% of the time and the two times they've competed in an agility trial, her dog has run off both times in the middle of the course.  She said for the longest time, she wished this dog could be like all her other dogs. And then she realized that she just has to work with what she's got. Apparently this dog is "bomb-proof" so she uses her to work with her reactive dog clients and has had great success. But she said that she's still determined that one of these days she'll have at least ONE ribbon. 

So going back to what you said, KB, she accepts her dog for who she is but she's still working on making her into the dog that she wants. It's tricky, for sure. But hopefully we can all get there one day.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I fell in love with Donatello being, doing, and acting how he is... I would actually be completely crushed if it ever came to a point where he quote/unquote -didn't need me anymore-. If Donatello just woke up and wasn't scared of anything anymore, and if he just started loving _everyone_ he was around, I'd be crushed... Call me a sickko, or a weirdo, but I _need_ that feeling of _need_. I really do, that's why I love animals so much, they _need_ you, and Donatello has needed me more than any other animal I ever had...

I accept Donatello's short-comings, and I'm working on him and his fears, but a part of me hopes that just a little bit of his "clingingness" stays... I'm not saying I hope he stays scared of strangers or anything, but looking at him and seeing how much he relies on me, makes me feel loved in a way... Hell, I can't explain it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I know what you mean about the feeling of having a dog who is bonded primarily to you. That is something I really like about Marge. If Marge was 100% social with everyone, willing to please the entire world, well, I honestly find that to be a less rewarding dog to own. That said, I wouldn't want her to be scared, just aloof. I like that she works for me, I LOVE it when she opens up to a person (like when she jumps all over my grandma and gives her sloppy kisses), but no matter what she always comes back to me and looks for guidance. I love that.

I'm very drawn to the aloof breeds.. the Doberman is the front runner for dog #2. But that's probably a decade or more away.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I have a feeling we won't have to worry about that. Not only because of how much they know us and spend time with us, but we're also there through some trying things in their lives.

They might not (and probably don't) understand why they are so attached. They might not remember the 100s of times they've been protected and guided through fears and challegnes, but I think it just keeps adding up to bonding them to us. 

Dogs will have relationships with everyone (and thing) they meet, so I think the relationship they have with us will be stronger than the ones they have with anyone else. Even if they become social butterflies - they might say hi to everyone and chat with anyone, but when it comes to their "deeper feelings" they'll be reserved for us and anyone they spend a lot of quality time with.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

We had some great "Look at that!" success this morning. It was extremely early, so I walked Jonas down to the gas station near our house and we sat about 10 feet from the door and "looked at that." No snarling, no hackles, no nothing for a good 20 minute sit. He let a few older women approach and pet him, and only had a bad moment when a man knelt to pet him (many kudos to him for even allowing a strange man to get close!) and dropped his coffee. He let out one bark and then walked behind me, so not a big upset. I gave the guy a treat and had him hand it to Jonas and we were back to happily watching the world go by.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm having some good improvements with Donatello. 

Remember how a few days ago, when I still lived with my mother in her apartment; Whenever the maintenance men worked upstairs Donatello would _freak_? He doesn't do that here!!

My father has a split-level home with a garage, and my old room which is now my room again is downstairs and below the dining-room. Well whenever my step-mother or anyone goes into the dining-room the celing in my room creaks and groans loudly.

The first day Donatello and I were here that freaked him out tremendously, I constantly found him curled up on my bed shaking. 

Not anymore!! For whatever reason Donatello's not frightened over it... He doesn't even bat an eye anymore! So, whether that be due to his knowledge there are other people and dogs above us, or that he just understands that's part of our home- he's not scared anymore! It's fabulous!

I'm also working on this as well; I have to keep my bedroom door closed at all times, because unlike Donatello the other dogs don't have enough respect or _smarts_ to stay out of my room... Especially the Pug-puppy, and he'll chew, eat, or destroy anything he can get in his mouth... Well, I'm not working on the puppy, he's not my responsibility, and I'm glad... But whenever I let Donatello out of my room, which is right by the stairs, instead of him just clambering up the stairs I say, _"No. Sit,"_ and I make him "sit", then I start up the stairs and he's allowed to follow.

I can't tell you how many times I've about fallen and cracked open my head, or break my other ankle because the other dogs don't wait their turn...  They'll be the death of me and then poor Donatello will perish avenging my untimely demise...


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I have been away for some time! My boyfriend from home from the military, and that caused lots of problems with Tiberius. He is doing better, other then trying to turn my boyfriend into a meal. Ti is ok with Alex, the boyfriend, as long as Alex is not in uniform...if he is in his ACU's, Tiberius tries to snack on him. Otherwise, Tiberius is doing much better. I will have new pics of him up tonight.

We took him on a three day, two night camping trip and he did wonderfully. he slept in the tent with us without a problem. He walked beautifully on his leash and even visited with people from the other camps when we went for walks. He is coming out of his shell finally.

About a month ago we went on a 6 mile walk with a friend of mine. After we came back, Corvyn took the leash and started to walk Ti down to the picnic table so I could go get Tiberius's water dish from the car. Usually Ti would panic and start thrashing, but he walked away from me without even looking back. In fact he didn't panic until he saw me coming over to the table then he realized I'd been gone. 

I missed everyone! Glad to be back!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Just a couple quick little YAY moments from this morning and last night. My step-dad was out splitting wood, and his work area is right now Tiberius's tie out...Ti barked a bit at the chainsaw, then went back the running his normal circles..no panicking, or yelping or anything.  I am so proud of my boy.

I stayed at my mom's last night so I didn't have to drive home in the dark..I really didn't want to have to watch for moose. Usually Tiberius paces through the house all night and then sleeps right up again the couch. Last night he curled up in the kitchen and fell asleep before I even went to bed. Mom says he was still asleep in the kitchen when she got up this morning.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Yay for Jonas, Tiberius and Donatello! It's good to hear of even the smallest success, isn't it!?

Last night my hubby's sister was here again on her way back home. Brenna definitely remembered her and was much more quick to allow Amy to pet her this time. We even all went on a walk together, and Brenna seemed to enjoy having the extra company around. We pay more attention to Brenna when we have friends in the house, so I think perhaps she is starting to learn that having more people around means more loving on her, too! Tomorrow we have more company coming to stay for a few nights (August seems to be the month for visitors around here!), so Brenna is going to get more practice in socialization. Then, Sunday we hope to have some other people over for lunch! By the end of all this, I think she'll be all worn out!  But it's really good for her, too. I'll report back to you all next week and let you know how things go!


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Good luck CocaCream!

Donatello is doing good... He's having his moments again, though. Last night I found him cowering under my desk, squeezed between it and the chair. Then it was a big fiasco to get him in his crate... OMG. It was one of his worst tantrums yet! So I gave him two tablets, his anti-stress tablets. It mellowed him out completely, and we were able to patch things up before bed... 

I'm going to give him two more today... I was able to get him in his crate this morning without too big of a fuss... 

It all started last night when I found him under my desk. Then I let him out to go to the bathroom... Well, it was time for him to go in his crate for the last time of the night... Do you want to know what he did? He boldly, and pointedly ignored me and went right back up the stairs!  I was speechless, he's hardly ever completely disregarded my command before... So then, like his old ways, he thinks I'm going to beat him so he keeps running from me and hiding under the kitchen table. I've never beat this dog before, but he obviously remembers what we humans are capable of when he disobeys... No amount of coaxing, cooing, or treats could have pursuaded him otherwise.

That's what started the fiasco last night with the kennel... So now he's completely off-standish towards it and wouldn't even eat the soft-dog food I put in the crate with him...

I was so frustrated and upset last night when all this ended that I kept him crated until the tablets started taking affect... I couldn't let him see me so worked up.

I hope we have a better day today. I don't want to have to keep him leashed to my side, I really don't, but if he's going to be stubborn and ignore my commands I have no other choice.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Good luck with all the visitors Cocoa! I am glad to hear Brenna is doing good.

Deege, good luck with Donatello. Lets hope he gets over this little speed bump quick. I think we all have them. With Tiberius its the car right now. He used to love going for rides, then my boyfriend came home and was in the car with us...now he fights me to ride in the car...*sigh*


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Dunixi glad you're back  and glad to hear most of the news about Ti is good news. Will he take treats from your boyfriend?

Cocoa Brenna is just doing SO well. One of the best out of the fearful dogs here IMO! From where she started to where she is now really is great. She is turning out wonderfully.

Deege, I'm glad you made the decision to give him the tablets. Hopefully they will help him to calm down so you can get through to him for training and behavior mod stuff. You are better off to leave him alone when you're upset. I have to do the same with Marge..

-----

Marge had a wonderful day yesterday. No fear reactivity at agility, and ran some great courses. I gave her the melatonin before class and I REALLY think it helps to keep her more in the zone. Her walks are improving and she's freaking out less when she sees or hears something. We're still only walking across the street in the field, because she's still antsy about walking around the block. One thing at a time, I guess.

That's the jist of it.. if you want to read it all it's here on my blog, I do a training update every Tuesday. If any of you have blogs I'd love to read them.. fearful dog blogs make for the very best reading! (Deege, do you still blog? I know you've been busy lately!)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Not much to update here - just still playing Look-At-That with sounds (i.e. click when he looks "at the sound"), and if there's dogs.

He's calmed down significantly in those situations. He kept taking treats (though he seemed to "miss" the clicks - but I kept clicking anyway - I'm sure he heard it).

It seems to be sinking in as once when we were walking, another dog was walking in front of us and they stopped at the intersection. We stopped a little ways behind and was going to cross there. That was fine - except Wally went to the _dog_ when we started moving again. 

He was just standing near the dog (which was kinda strange) but he wasn't scared or anything. I guess he was just waiting for him to move? Or maybe they were communicating/sending signals to each other. 

Either way, it was a very calm meeting, and this was with him off-leash as well. 

It was a little funny too because that dog leave a BIG pee spot on the sidewalk (probably aiming for the grass - and got 75% of it on the sidewalk!) and Wally sniffed it and went across the sidewalk to pee immediately. 

BTW, I've noticed that Wally is always trying to sniff dogs after they go by. I guess just trying to get their scent "indirectly".


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Not much to update here - just still playing Look-At-That with sounds (i.e. click when he looks "at the sound"), and if there's dogs.
> 
> He's calmed down significantly in those situations. He kept taking treats (though he seemed to "miss" the clicks - but I kept clicking anyway - I'm sure he heard it).
> 
> ...


Your success sounds great! (Wanna take Donatello and work your magic?)  lol. 

I really should start doing the "look at that" game, but I can't seem to figure out how to do it... (Without a clicker.) Wally sounds like he's really doing great, I don't seem to find you coming on here and venting about a mishap, so does he have any during the day??



MissMutt said:


> Deege, I'm glad you made the decision to give him the tablets. Hopefully they will help him to calm down so you can get through to him for training and behavior mod stuff. You are better off to leave him alone when you're upset. I have to do the same with Marge...


I was holding them for an emergency, I'd like Donatello to get to a point where he can work out his fears in his head, so-to-speak, and not get so flighty that he can't calm down without the tablets...

Either way, we did finish the night last night sleeping side-by-side, so it must not have been as detrimental to his state as I was anticipating.

I'm also doing my best to stay out of my room during the time he's crated... I am wondering if he thinks he's being punished for something, at least when I leave the room he might think I'm gone, but he does seem to be confused when I crate him then go about my business in the same room...



> Marge had a wonderful day yesterday. No fear reactivity at agility, and ran some great courses. I gave her the melatonin before class and I REALLY think it helps to keep her more in the zone. Her walks are improving and she's freaking out less when she sees or hears something. We're still only walking across the street in the field, because she's still antsy about walking around the block. One thing at a time, I guess.


That is wonderful!  I'm so happy for Marge and for you! I bet seeing her stay calm during a walk is quite refreshing to your blood-pressure! 

The "one thing at time"-thing is really what it's all about... And sometimes I still have a habit of getting ahead of myself and expect Donatello to be able to handle _everything_ at once, and it just doesn't really work that way for dogs like ours.



> (Deege, do you still blog? I know you've been busy lately!)


I haven't blogged in awhile, things have been pretty hectic, but I do plan on updating some things in the next couple days. I'll send you comment when I get to that.



Dunixi said:


> Good luck with all the visitors Cocoa! I am glad to hear Brenna is doing good.
> 
> Deege, good luck with Donatello. Lets hope he gets over this little speed bump quick. I think we all have them. With Tiberius its the car right now. He used to love going for rides, then my boyfriend came home and was in the car with us...now he fights me to ride in the car...*sigh*


Good luck to you too with Ti and your boyfriend... How does he react when you and your boyfriend get close? Does Ti know "touch" or "target", is he capable of "touching" your boyfriend on command? 

I gave Donatello, two tablets this morning instead of his usual one-and-a-half... They really do wonders, or at least I believe they do! Donatello romped with me for a few minutes on my bed, surprisingly, because usually this dog holds a grudge. (A grudge in the way that he usually pouts the next couple days after our scuffle.) Anyway, he did play with me, I let him go pee outside and hang with the dogs, but I had a leash with me. I leashed him when I left my room, made him sit by the stairs and wait for me to close my door. Then when I knew it was time to go back down to my room I leashed him again; To end any possbility of him disobeying me again... Then, I decided I'd try and see if he would eat, which he did, not a lot, but he ate some... Then, doing very little coaxing he went in his crate...

Like I said, I'm going to try and stay out of the room when he's crated... I don't believe he thinks he's being punished if I'm not in the room with him.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> really should start doing the "look at that" game, but I can't seem to figure out how to do it... (Without a clicker.)


You can accomplish the same thing using a marker word, like "Yes!" or even "Good Boy!"

I usually bring my clicker with me to agility and we play Look at That, but lately I've just been using a marker word. It's hard to hold a leash, treats, and clicker AND watch the environment AND train the dog all at once. So we substitute a little sometimes


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> I really should start doing the "look at that" game, but I can't seem to figure out how to do it... (Without a clicker.) Wally sounds like he's really doing great, I don't seem to find you coming on here and venting about a mishap, so does he have any during the day??


Sometimes, but usually he's pretty calm these days. 

He still gets worked up around kids - but usually, a few "touch" commands or just settling him down helps. Once he sees the kid isn't out to eat him, he's cool with them, sniffing them, taking treats from their hands, letting them pet him and ruffle his fur, etc.

Still working on changing that initial judgment, but at least he's willing to let the situation "play out" so to speak.

I think he's still weak in the full greeting department. I have a feeling he was okay with that dog because he was behind him. I bet if they had met nose-to-nose, Wally might not have acted the same.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KB - Aren't you just amazed by the Look at That game? I know I am. When I first read about it, I couldn't imagine that it would really work. But the times I've used it with Mayzie, I've been pretty surprised by how well (and quickly) it's worked.

Deege - I'm sure Donatello feels all sorts of discombobulated (I just love that word) about this sudden change in his life. And he's probably trying to test the waters to see if all the old rules still apply in the new place. You're doing the right thing by being firm and consistent. Hang in there!

CocoaCream - I just love hearing your Brenna successes! How long has she been with you?

MissMutt - I'm doing cartwheels because of your great day! You and Marge totally deserved a day like that with everything that's been going on. Like you said, one day at a time. I'm definitely going to check out your blog. I started one when we first got Mayzie but I haven't written in awhile. I need to start up again as it really helps me gain perspective on how far we've come.

As for me, we have our appt with the vet tomorrow to talk about situational meds. I'm nervous as heck! For all my going on about how meds are nothing to be ashamed of when they're really needed, I still feel that stigma. I don't want my vet to think I'm just trying to drug my dog so I've been thinking of all the things I want to tell him about her history and why I think she would benefit. My vet is absolutely wonderful so I'm probably getting worked up over nothing. The thing I keep going back to is the Starbucks thing and how I just can't take the chance of her hurting herself while in panic mode. 

And just for kicks...I took this picture the night before last and wanted to share it with you all. This is what she looks like most of the time at home. How I would love for her to one day display this type of exuberance and confidence everywhere.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> You can accomplish the same thing using a marker word, like "Yes!" or even "Good Boy!"
> 
> I usually bring my clicker with me to agility and we play Look at That, but lately I've just been using a marker word. It's hard to hold a leash, treats, and clicker AND watch the environment AND train the dog all at once. So we substitute a little sometimes


Sometimes the click will startle Wally more than whatever he's focused on as well. Especially with objects - it's like he "knows" the object shouldn't make the click sound and when he hears the click, it can make him jump back some.

In those situations, I go with a word marker (usually good boy because I've often said that when giving treats so it's almost as "charged" as the click it seems).



ColoradoSooner said:


> KB - Aren't you just amazed by the Look at That game? I know I am. When I first read about it, I couldn't imagine that it would really work. But the times I've used it with Mayzie, I've been pretty surprised by how well (and quickly) it's worked.


Absolutely! The Look-At-That game was especially an "Ah ha!" moment as I was reading CU (Control Unleashed). When I first ran it on Wally, it was so fun to watch how his mind seemed to be changing immediately. 

I really need to work it in other places, like the Grooming side of PetCo or the vet, but he might be too worked up to take treats, but I might be surprised especially if I bring the best. Still consistency would be a problem. Thankfully, he doesn't need frequent vet visits and he doesn't get trimmed/groomed often enough for using the place for training I don't think.

I might have to, reluctantly, put up with the nervousness in those places. I don't baby him, but it doesn't stop him from sitting like right next to me and doing the "shadow dance" with me every time I move (and the pawing my leg and whimpering or standing up on me and whimpering). 



ColoradoSooner said:


> And just for kicks...I took this picture the night before last and wanted to share it with you all. This is what she looks like most of the time at home. How I would love for her to one day display this type of exuberance and confidence everywhere.


Wow, nice dog!  

I love that expression! One day, she'll get there for everywhere and everything


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't even know how much longer Jonas will qualify as a fearful dog! Obviously kidding, but every day in the past week or so has been rewarding and a giant step forward. Letting a strange man hold in him his lap, strangers petting him and giving him treats, and tonight allowing my little brother to walk him on a leash. He's also been much more independent in the house. Not following me around all the time or constantly begging to sit in my lap. I'm not sure what changed, but we're having a lucky streak. 

Save for the urination. I've had him vet checked for every thing that this could account for, but he's healthy. When he approaches me when I'm sitting on the computer, or if he wants to get into bed, he'll jump up on the side of the chair/bed and wag his tail asking to be picked up. Problem is when I DO pick him up, he sprays pee all over me or the side of the bed. He's NEVER done that before. He used to submissively urinate on himself when approached (usually by strangers, me in the beginning, but not anymore) but never when I would pick him up.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Deege, Tiberius is ok with Alex as long as I am there. Alex tried to approach Ti once in full ACU's (that's the camos) and Tiberius decided he was a steak. He didn't bite but he growled and barked. He doesn't like Alex...but will tolerate him. The only other time Alex has approached the dog was in shorts and a t-shirt and Tiberius sat there shaking. 
I am gonig to be starting Tiberius with "Touch" soon....but he won't even walk up to Alex. Most other guys he will approach without a problem now...but Alex is a different story. 

Tonight I had a sorta heartbreaking but sweet moment. I had a horrible pain in my jaw before dinner, and while I was in the bathroom trying to get the orajel on so it would stop hurting, Tiberius sat outside the door and whined. He never whines other then to go out..he even barked a little which never happens indoors..I think he was worried for his human. Right now he is sitting in my mom's dining room watching me..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> If any of you have blogs I'd love to read them.. fearful dog blogs make for the very best reading! (Deege, do you still blog? I know you've been busy lately!)


I have one here but I haven't written on it in a while.

Not sure I like the format/set up or not or if even gets out to that many people.


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## ooby1kanooby (Aug 11, 2009)

We got my dog, Elli, from the pound so we don't know what happened to her in the past. She was apparently a stray they found on the streets. She tends to attack me/my family in a playful manner but she is incredibly tuff so it's quite painful. At first I yelled at her and raised finger as to say no. I think she thought I was going to hit her! Of course I wouldn't really HIT my dog. I've hit her on the butt but not enough to hurt her at all, just very lightly. She cowars and then starts attacking more violently than usual. Recently I have just said, "It's okay baby. It's mommy." Over and over and she calms very well. I feel so bad when I think of what her past must have been like.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

ooby1kanooby said:


> We got my dog, Elli, from the pound so we don't know what happened to her in the past. She was apparently a stray they found on the streets. She tends to attack me/my family in a playful manner but she is incredibly tuff so it's quite painful. At first I yelled at her and raised finger as to say no. I think she thought I was going to hit her! Of course I wouldn't really HIT my dog. I've hit her on the butt but not enough to hurt her at all, just very lightly. She cowars and then starts attacking more violently than usual. Recently I have just said, "It's okay baby. It's mommy." Over and over and she calms very well. I feel so bad when I think of what her past must have been like.


Yup. Rescue dogs need to be treated and trained with nothing but kindness. Otherwise it's like fighting fire with fire. Though I'm not sure your dog is fearful, maybe just untrained? As you spend more time with her you'll better be able to see the roots of her behaviors, ie. why she does things. Though it's not always clear, even after time passes.

When she plays rough, try ending the play altogether by going into a different room or facing a wall. That'll teach her that biting ends playtime, so biting's a bad idea. You can also try saying "OUCH!" and act like she's really hurt you.

Good luck with her and let us know how she progresses.


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## ooby1kanooby (Aug 11, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Yup. Rescue dogs need to be treated and trained with nothing but kindness. Otherwise it's like fighting fire with fire. Though I'm not sure your dog is fearful, maybe just untrained? As you spend more time with her you'll better be able to see the roots of her behaviors, ie. why she does things. Though it's not always clear, even after time passes.
> 
> When she plays rough, try ending the play altogether by going into a different room or facing a wall. That'll teach her that biting ends playtime, so biting's a bad idea. You can also try saying "OUCH!" and act like she's really hurt you.
> 
> Good luck with her and let us know how she progresses.


As I said she is a very tough dog. I do say ouch because it REALLY hurts. Although now she is getting good at stopping and then licking me as if to say, 'I'm sorry'. Often I say no more and walk inside (we play in our yard) when she starts attacking. I don't even know if she realizes that she's wrong, maybe she thinks she's just playing normally. Thanks for the advice, and I will try to keep you up to date. :]


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Is that her in your signature? She looks a little bit like my Marge.


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## ooby1kanooby (Aug 11, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Is that her in your signature? She looks a little bit like my Marge.


Yep that's her. I thought she did, too. She's a black lab/mix, but she has some traits of a bull dog or a pittbull I don't remember which.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ooby1kanooby said:


> As I said she is a very tough dog. I do say ouch because it REALLY hurts. Although now she is getting good at stopping and then licking me as if to say, 'I'm sorry'. Often I say no more and walk inside (we play in our yard) when she starts attacking. I don't even know if she realizes that she's wrong, maybe she thinks she's just playing normally. Thanks for the advice, and I will try to keep you up to date. :]


Not so much about "wrong" but showing her that's not what you want her to do. Of course, it's natural - she's probably mouthy/nippy and you're doing right by just ending the fun if that's not what you want her to do. Stay with it and she'll learn you don't want to play by nipping/mouthing. 

I just like to take right/wrong out of it and just go with desirable/undesirable behavior. Reward the desirable and over time it will help her learn what you do want her to do. Any punishing should be like what you did - end the fun, withhold the reward, withdraw your attention, "exile" her from the area, things like that which aren't the results she's looking for, but won't harm her or teach using fear/intimidation.

And she is beautiful. That's a seriously brown dog!

Edit: Oh she's black? Looks like a very very dark brown on my monitor. Still beautiful!


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## ooby1kanooby (Aug 11, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Not so much about "wrong" but showing her that's not what you want her to do. Of course, it's natural - she's probably mouthy/nippy and you're doing right by just ending the fun if that's not what you want her to do. Stay with it and she'll learn you don't want to play by nipping/mouthing.
> 
> I just like to take right/wrong out of it and just go with desirable/undesirable behavior. Reward the desirable and over time it will help her learn what you do want her to do. Any punishing should be like what you did - end the fun, withhold the reward, withdraw your attention, "exile" her from the area, things like that which aren't the results she's looking for, but won't harm her or teach using fear/intimidation.
> 
> ...


Again thank you for advice. By the way she is a black lab but she seems to have a brown glow in the right light. The picture does seem to make her look much more brown. :/


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Welcometo _The Fearful Dog_ thread Ooby1Kanooby; (I haven't seen you around here...) I echo what others have said about your dog being gorgeous. 

Donatello did fantastic yesterday... He really did. I'm still leashing him to go up and down the stairs, to reinforce to him that he's to listen to me and not just do what _he_ wants to do...

Having a huge yard and a Pug puppy to play with is really doing wonders for him... That puppy and him get to playing "cat and mouse". The puppy loves being chased, and Donatello loves to do the chasing. It's hilarious, Donatello sounds like he's going to eat him, and really, Donatello could get that puppy in a heart-beat, but I watch him give the puppy a 'headstart' before he takes off after him...

Anyway, he hasn't hid under the desk the last day and a half, he's still responding decently to being crated, and the noises overhead still don't seem to bother him.

The only other thing I really need work on is Donatello's shyness around my father. When he gets down in the yard and starts playing fetch with the other dogs, Donatello comes running back to me. Not in an all-out scared-mode, but he slinks back to me and watches my father in a curious manner. I can tell he _really_ wants to play with him and the other dogs, but he's still unsure... When I get down in the yard Donatello races to beat me there, he loves playing fetch now; My father does interact with him, and when my father goes anywhere and comes home he's always amongst the pack looking for a head-pat. He really likes my father, I can tell, he's just uneasy around him he's not sitting in a chair. lol.

My father really likes him as well... Really likes him. He'll sit and watch Donatello interact for the longest time, and then make a comment about how much Donatello has "come out of his shell"... He also makes comments like, _"You know, Donatello can have free-run of the house like the other dogs, I wouldn't mind if he came in my office while I'm in there."_ lmao.  Yeah, I know that, but there are places that I just don't think Donatello needs to be... I'm picky like that, and it probably makes me look too demanding, but that's just how it is... 

I hope everyone has a fantastic day with their dog!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Dunixi glad you're back  and glad to hear most of the news about Ti is good news. Will he take treats from your boyfriend


I forgot to answer this MM, sorry! no he won't. He refuses to take treats from my boyfriend.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Again thank you for advice. By the way she is a black lab but she seems to have a brown glow in the right light. The picture does seem to make her look much more brown. :/


That color is called seal. Black sometimes, brown in certain light. 

We kind of had a crappy incident last night.. my dad was rough-housing with my sister a little bit and Marge went over all concerned and started woo-woo-wooing. It's not really THAT big of a deal, but my father sometimes refuses to take into account the things that set off Marge, which I don't like.

The two of them will NEVER see eye to eye.. it's like they bicker with each other like children.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Donatello gets that way over me... He's growled at my sister a time or two; She likes to get in your face and _growl_ at you, she's 6 and she's trying to be intimidating, well I growled at her just to make her laugh and forget the silly matter and Donatello stood up beside me on the sofa and rumbled really deeply. His tail was tucked, his ears were back and he was pissed. (This wasn't the first time she's made this mistake.) I joked with her about it that she needs to stop because Donatello doesn't like her being mean... But I talked with my mother later on and tried to explain to her that she needs to stop acting this way around Donatello. He's very protective, and for whatever reason, but I can't bring myself to discipline him when it comes a matter like this...

I was able to add a new post to Donatello's Blog, it's not really anything that I haven't already posted about, but I'll be adding to it later today.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Well, I took Mayzie to the vet last night to talk about behavioral meds. I love my vet SO much. He asked a ton of questions, including whether we had noticed any neurological things like walking in circles, head tilting, etc. He looked back through her records, listened to her heart and lungs, felt her over for lumps, bumps, etc. All in all, we spent about 45 minutes together, discussing her fears, what sets her off, whether meds would be helpful, what we've done for her so far, and so on. Turns out, he actually knows the trainer we're going to be working with and they have worked collaboratively on dogs with issues...although usually aggression based issues. He reiterated that meds work most effectively in conjunction with behavioral modification which, of course, I already knew but it was nice to hear him acknowledge how important that is.

Like me, he felt that she doesn't need daily medications so he suggested Xanax for situations that we know are going to be stressful for her. He very thoroughly went over the dose to start with, what to watch for and how to increase the dose if needed. 

My sister is coming into town this weekend so I think I'm going to wait until next week to give Mayzie her initial dose so that I can really pay attention to how she reacts. She really likes people, after her initial shyness, so I don't think this will be a stressful weekend for her anyway.

Whew! I feel so blessed to have such a great vet to help me work through Mayzie's issues. I wish everyone could be so lucky!

Hope everyone is doing well and that you all have a fabulous weekend!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> Donatello gets that way over me... He's growled at my sister a time or two; She likes to get in your face and _growl_ at you, she's 6 and she's trying to be intimidating, well I growled at her just to make her laugh and forget the silly matter and Donatello stood up beside me on the sofa and rumbled really deeply. His tail was tucked, his ears were back and he was pissed. (This wasn't the first time she's made this mistake.) I joked with her about it that she needs to stop because Donatello doesn't like her being mean... But I talked with my mother later on and tried to explain to her that she needs to stop acting this way around Donatello. He's very protective, and for whatever reason, but I can't bring myself to discipline him when it comes a matter like this...
> 
> I was able to add a new post to Donatello's Blog, it's not really anything that I haven't already posted about, but I'll be adding to it later today.



I actually saw this one day Wally and I were sitting under a shade tree taking a break during our walk. A little dog looked like he was going to come over to us and Wally stood on my legs and was barking fiercely as he could (amazing how big his bark can be). I got him to quiet down (after the initial shock for a few seconds), but he just wouldn't stop watching the dog until he was out of sight. I never saw that before that day. 

I checked out the blog - looks quite nice  I need to get mine back into shape.



ColoradoSooner said:


> Whew! I feel so blessed to have such a great vet to help me work through Mayzie's issues. I wish everyone could be so lucky!
> 
> Hope everyone is doing well and that you all have a fabulous weekend!



That's wonderful! I hope the Xanax helps Mayzie out and brings you two successes. 

I hope you have a great weekend too!


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

We're having a great day today!

This morning I let him play and romp a while before I crated him; I had an appointment this morning for about two hours... He did really well going in and coming out. Then on and off all day today I've taken him upstairs and outside to play fetch and wrestle with the other dogs...

Currently, I'm sitting at the desk and he's beside me, laying down; He's laying in that comfortable postition, where his hips are even with the floor and his shoulders are up and he's just surveying the living-room... He rarely lays like that. 

He ate a _big_ lunch today, so I know he's happy.

We're working on his "sit" and "sit stay" around the dogs, and it's really coming along. They're not nearly as distracting as they once were to him... 

I'm quite proud...

I hope everyone had a good day.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

deege--good to hear that Donatello is having a good, happy day so far. May it continue! 

Colorado--it is such a blessing to feel you can trust your vet and really discuss problems with them. I finally found one that I think I like, but I haven't actually taken Brenna to her yet, just the cats. 

Brenna had a good time getting to know the friends who stayed with us the last two days. She did bark at them when they came in the house for the first time, but I think it was because she was startled. I didn't even hear my husband bring them in the back door, so I was surprised when they arrived, too. Her moments of fear/panic when meeting new people continue to decrease, though. She really was very quick to come over and sniff the new people once her initial surprise was gone. After a couple of hours, she was readily accepting a little petting. By last night at dinner, she had become so comfortable with our friends that she laid down right behind their chairs and fell asleep. The cats actually took alot longer to come out of hiding and meet everyone. But, they, too eventually relished the extra attention!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

CoSooner - very happy to read of your vet visit. I hope you'll be letting us know when you give Mayzie the meds as I am VERY interested in seeing how it pans out. (BTW, if you plan on starting back up your blog again, might be a good time. Just saying that because it helped me keep my thoughts organized as I started the melatonin for Marge.)

Deege - good to hear about Donatello's good day. 

Cocoa - sounds great! I do like the feeling of knowing that the fear doesn't last as long. I find that when Marge is startled now she usually doesn't run for the hills anymore, and instead kind of goes back about her business without any residual "OH MY GOD AHHH THAT WAS SO SCARY" lol

Marge had a pretty good day yesterday too, actually. We rented out the training hall and practiced agility all by ourselves. There were some noises outside from the mechanic next door, and while she heard them, she didn't really seem to think that being afraid of them was worth her while. We ran agility for almost two hours and she was pooped at the end.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Had an ok first time visiting the groomer yesterday. Didn't actually go in - just did our parking lot routine with peanut butter and moving ever closer. The shop is owned by the groomer our vet recommended. We have to get Poca comfortable in the parking lot, then inside the shop interacting with the groomer. Then who knows, maybe one day, an actual bath!! Imagine that!

There's a noisy car wash next door which she didn't like at all. But she would still eat peanut butter and do basic obedience on the perimeter. She even walked with me along the sidewalk and right past the shop door. Once. Wouldn't go back again but I was pretty pleased with that since she usually won't go within 10 ft of glass doors. Then something spooked her and she was back-pedalling to the car. When she gets like that I open the car and let her sit inside and watch what's going on around her. If she's real scared she won't come back out again. But yesterday she hopped in and out a few times.

I think it was classic approach/avoidance - she really wanted to approach all the places where the other dogs had been but didn't like what she was seeing/hearing around her. Would have been great if I'd had another dog there to help make the positive association right away. Gonna have to get one of those purse dogs one of these days to help with training...

So today she'll be getting a bath a la Mom. Love, love masses of black dog hair all over my bathroom. Makes quite a design statement.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Marge had a pretty good day yesterday too, actually. We rented out the training hall and practiced agility all by ourselves. There were some noises outside from the mechanic next door, and while she heard them, she didn't really seem to think that being afraid of them was worth her while. We ran agility for almost two hours and she was pooped at the end.


That is so great!  I'm glad you guys got to do some agility one-on-one... I've come to find that something like that, or training, doing it one-on-one is much easier and then comes easier later on when you add in the distractions... That's probably the same for any normal dog, not just the fearful ones.



CocoaCream said:


> Brenna had a good time getting to know the friends who stayed with us the last two days. She did bark at them when they came in the house for the first time, but I think it was because she was startled. I didn't even hear my husband bring them in the back door, so I was surprised when they arrived, too. Her moments of fear/panic when meeting new people continue to decrease, though. She really was very quick to come over and sniff the new people once her initial surprise was gone. After a couple of hours, she was readily accepting a little petting. By last night at dinner, she had become so comfortable with our friends that she laid down right behind their chairs and fell asleep. The cats actually took alot longer to come out of hiding and meet everyone. But, they, too eventually relished the extra attention! ; )


That's amazing.  I'm glad to bear Brenna is doing well... Brenna's not the only dog that barks at new people... Whenever there's a person that walks through this door, whether they live here or not, the barking never ceases (sp) until that said person hands over a treat of some kind. lmao. But, these guys bark out of habit, and not because they're startled, but because they feel it's their dog-sworn-duty. lol.

It's so nice to hear of a shy dog becoming comfortable to sleep near strangers. I love it!



winniec777 said:


> So today she'll be getting a bath a la Mom. Love, love masses of black dog hair all over my bathroom. Makes quite a design statement. ; )




Yours too?

Donatello has had another glorious day! : D I'm so proud of my little man... We haven't had anymore episodes, thus haven't had to use his tablets. He's still listening to me really well, and we're still working on his focus to me with the other dogs around, but that is a much improvement then before...

Right now he's laying down next to me. : ) It's so sweet...

I hope everyone has a wonderful weekend! : D


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> Right now he's laying down next to me. : ) It's so sweet...


Does Donny get mad if you don't let him lay near you?

Wally kind of gets this "why not?!" look when I don't let him come over to this side of the room and lay in his spot between the tv stand and the desk (which is near me at the computer or closer if I'm sitting in my "regular" chair. When I cue him to his bed, he looks like I just beat him and go flop on his bed and sigh and I'll see these big brown eyes staring a hole in me until he finally goes to sleep.

Sometimes he'll get up and "ask" if he can come over (by barking or making these odd sounds and growl-ish noises and wagging his tail all wild like I can't see him if he doesn't)


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> CoSooner - very happy to read of your vet visit. I hope you'll be letting us know when you give Mayzie the meds as I am VERY interested in seeing how it pans out. (BTW, if you plan on starting back up your blog again, might be a good time. Just saying that because it helped me keep my thoughts organized as I started the melatonin for Marge.)


I'll definitely let you know how it goes. I think I'm going to give her her first dose here in a bit and see what happens. I feel nervous for some reason. But hopefully all will go well. Great idea about starting up the blog again. You're right about it helping to keep my thoughts organized and track progress.

We had a really good weekend with my sister. Luckily, Mayzie loves people once she warms up to them. I've noticed something interesting about her, too. When people like the vet or our trainer try to approach her in the "right" way...crouching down, turned to the side, slow movements, not looking directly at her...it kind of freaks her out. Much more than if people just act normal but ignore her for a bit. Weird, huh? 

Anyway, I gave my sister the "act normal but ignore her" instructions, armed her with treats and then let Mayzie and Ranger in. Ranger loves my sister and ran right up to her, all happy to see her. And Mayzie did the exact same thing! My sister looks at me and says, "Yeah, that was real hard." From then on, Mayzie was my sister's little shadow. On Saturday morning, Mayzie refused to eat until she got to say hi to my sister. (Very rude to eat before greeting one's guests, you know.) 

So after my sister left, we decided to take the dogs to a sporting goods store here that allows pets. Mayzie's been there before and has always done suprisingly well with it. So I didn't think much about it. But it's very windy today and the flag on the flagpole outside was whipping around and banging against the pole. That completely freaked her out and she started pulling wildly at the leash to try to get away. Then when we got inside, she went into a crouch and shook violently all over. Sigh. So I took her back out to the car and there we sat while my hubby did his shopping. Fingers crossed that the xanax will help her with these over the top reactions in the future.

Just want to say again how much I love this thread and I love reading about everyone's progress and triumphs. It's really great to know that we're not alone!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally had a brief but pleasant encounter with a couple kids yesterday.

They were right outside, sitting on the sidewalk talking about whatever. Wally didn't hesitate going out on the porch and sitting. He looked at them, but that's it. Then one boy, that he "knows" decently, came over and scratched him on his head, and Wally just let him  He didn't pull back or anything.

Then the real success was a girl that he's never seen before came up and was stroking his hair and playing with it (girls..they just can't seem to just pet him LOL ) and while she was doing that, Wally was sniffing her all over, stretching to sniff her legs when she knelt down and sniffing her arms and such. I was thinking oh boy, please don't sniff her you know where, please! 

He didn't, but I never ever seen *that* much interest in a kid before. Makes me wonder what she smelled like to him, or if she had any food in her pocket (like gum or candies or such)?

It went very well and easy. I didn't have to say anything either, just watched it play out. I just put the leash on after and started our walk and he was just happy. 

Amazing. A month ago, he might have been okay with the boy he knows but the girl? He probably would have been getting nervous, especially at the beginning, and I doubt he'd be sniffing her like she was a piece of steak. 



ColoradoSooner said:


> But it's very windy today and the flag on the flagpole outside was whipping around and banging against the pole. That completely freaked her out and she started pulling wildly at the leash to try to get away. Then when we got inside, she went into a crouch and shook violently all over. Sigh.


 Know that feeling.

Wally gets the same way about PetCo, especially going through the "Grooming Door". 

What I *don't* get is

1) Why? Nothing has ever happened to him there. 

2) Why only when we take him in, not when we pick him up? What I mean is that when we bring him in, the does the pull on the leash trying to get away thing and inside he's all shaking and nervous. He's pawing me, standing up his back paws trying to get my attention, shadowing my every step. 

Yet when time to pick him up, he's in that same room for a while and he's not shaking or anything. Does he understand that he's about to be left behind when first coming in? Is the second reaction (at pick up) just means he's happy to see me again and that's override whatever anxiety? Just an interesting reaction difference to the same location.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Way to go, Wally! That's fabulous! And those are exactly the kind of encounters Wally needs to keep building good associations with kids. 

Was the little girl pretty laid back? If so, that probably helped a lot. I'll never forget the first time Ranger (our-non-shy-but-decidedly-uninterested-in-most-people dog) really responded to a kid. It was a calm little girl who sat down on the ground and started scratching him behind his ears, while remarking, "dogs like it when you do this." Well, apparently Ranger did, because when she stopped, he inched forward to encourage her to keep at it. I was shocked!

And I can tell you, as a former little girl myself, little girls are all about hair...whether it's on dolls, other little girls or on crazy-cute dogs like Wally. LOL. So it's a good thing that Wally is getting used to being a chick magnet 'cause I'm afraid that's going to be his fate.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Yeah, she was a calm and actually sane girl - probably about 10 years old (so I guess not "little" but still a kid). I was glad that she was rather calm. She talked softly and was touching him gently. 

LOL yeah, I've started to notice that about girls and hair. Whether it's a 4 year old or a teenager, it's always with the hair  (it's either "can I pet his hair" or "OMG look at that white dog!!!!") Heck, even some adult ladies have commented on his hair and how flowing it is when the wind blows it. 

90% of the kids that ask to pet him are girls. In fact, I find that the girls are more bold about petting him than boys are. A lot of boys are actually borderline scared of him. Always funny to see the younger sisters telling the older brothers, "COME PET THE DOG!" when the brothers hesitate.

And there was this one that was like the Alpha in a "pack" of girls and she was telling them what not to do to him. I think Wally liked her too LOL

So, yeah, I better double-time it with the association to kids, especially the female kind!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KB - What you said regarding Wally's reaction to PetCo...I bet you're right about him knowing that he's going to get left behind. And then I'm sure when you pick him up, it's a party in his head...YIPPEE! They didn't leave me here to rot and die! Hallelujah! 

He's a smart little munchkin and I'm sure it didn't take him long to put two and two together. Sometimes I just wish that they would make the "good" associations as quickly as they do the "bad" ones.

And yes...I suppose little girls never really outgrow their fascination with long flowing tresses.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius had a good couple of days. He has been at my mom's while I job hunt. He is still a bit nervous about meeting new people. But he has learned its ok to bark when people come in the yard and he is outside. He is also a bit more energetic inside my mom's house. Normally at mom's he will stand right next to me with his head in my lap. Now he runs around and wrestles with mom's dog and cats.  I'm glad to read the good news.

We did have a bit of a bad spot today. I woke up this morning, and as I'm coming downstairs to take Tiberius out, he peed on the floor.  I have been letting him sleep with his crate door open at night for about a month or so now because he has been doing very good with his house breaking. This morning is the first accident in a month and a half or two months. I'm pretty happy with that considering he is 3 and wasn't house broke at all in March.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally had a good encounter with a Yorkie/Norwich mix named Bo.

At first, though, I thought it was going to be questionable. When they met, Wally kinda snorted/barked at him as they tried to meet and sniff each other. I left him in there, though, just calmly holding the leash and didn't say anything and I noticed there was less of that going on and more sniffing. Wally started sniffing on the other dog's side and then Bo was sniffing around Wally's neck (I don't think he could reach any further, heh).

Then they kept sniffing and when Bo sniffed the ground, Wally sniffed Bo's butt LOL. Then Bo turned and sniffed around on Wally and Wally stuck his head under Bo and started sniffing. 

So in all it was a good encounter. They just sniffed each other calmly and neither dog was nervous or anxious. We cross paths on the way back and both dogs were trying to get to each other and Wally turned and wanted to follow Bo. 

First a good meeting with some kids and now with a dog. Not sure where this "new" dog came from, but I'm loving it 

One thing I noticed was that when I pet Bo, Wally suddenly took even more interest in him. Any ideas why? He's done this once before where if I pet a dog, he'll then want to come up too even if he was staying back before.


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## ooby1kanooby (Aug 11, 2009)

I know I've asked about my Elli Belli before but I have another question. Even when we aren't playing and we are just relaxing in my bed or something she still gets kind of nasty. If I'm beside her petting her she will either lick me and like the attention or she'll snap at my face. Sometimes I'm not sure what she will do. I don't want to take away the attention I give her when we are relaxing because most of the time she likes it. I love Elli but no matter what we do she seems to have some problems with 'playing rough' I guess. I know she really is a good girl and she just plays rough.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KB, sounds like Wally has had quite a few good moments in the past few days. Kudos to both of you. 

CS - ever give that first dose? I actually had a not-so-good exchange with one of my non-immediate family members regarding meds for Marge. She's been in the dog fancy a long time and can kind of, um, think she knows everything.. and she's not exactly smitten with the idea of me drugging my dog next summer, saying it'd be better to just expose her to her fears and "not run away from them".. telling me that the results I'd see on the meds are "artificial." when I tried to tell her that the meds would be to enable me to help her get through them, she just didn't really get it. Sorry, but even "dog experts" don't know everything about fearful dogs..  She means well though, I just don't agree with her.

Well, Marge went back to Petsmart for the first time since the beginner of summer. She was _okay_. She went right in all excited because she knew she would be able to vacuum up whatever bits of kibble that are on the floor in the back by the bags of food.. a gross habit, but one that I enable her to do because it really calms her down and makes her happy. She met a few people and a couple of dogs (both puppies) who she wanted to sniff so badly but didn't want to get _too_ close to. At the end of the visit I saw a glimpse of my old CGC Marge.. I held a treat up and she readily accepted pats on the head from a lady at the checkout. That, I have to admit, made me really happy. That side of Marge is still in there somewhere after all..



ooby1kanooby said:


> I know I've asked about my Elli Belli before but I have another question. Even when we aren't playing and we are just relaxing in my bed or something she still gets kind of nasty. If I'm beside her petting her she will either lick me and like the attention or she'll snap at my face. Sometimes I'm not sure what she will do. I don't want to take away the attention I give her when we are relaxing because most of the time she likes it. I love Elli but no matter what we do she seems to have some problems with 'playing rough' I guess. I know she really is a good girl and she just plays rough.


How old is she? Once they get into middle adulthood the risk of thyroid disease does increase, and its most prevalent in spayed females. It can produce some pretty weird behavioral responses. I'd definitely talk about these behaviors with your vet, as it may be worth your while to look at things from a medical perspective.


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## ooby1kanooby (Aug 11, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> How old is she? Once they get into middle adulthood the risk of thyroid disease does increase, and its most prevalent in spayed females. It can produce some pretty weird behavioral responses. I'd definitely talk about these behaviors with your vet, as it may be worth your while to look at things from a medical perspective.



She is about a year and a half old. Would this be found in a check up? Because Elli just had one yesterday.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Nope, it's found in blood tests.


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## ooby1kanooby (Aug 11, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Nope, it's found in blood tests.


Haha of course. Stupid me! I'll make sure to get my parents to check that out.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> CS - ever give that first dose? I actually had a not-so-good exchange with one of my non-immediate family members regarding meds for Marge. She's been in the dog fancy a long time and can kind of, um, think she knows everything.. and she's not exactly smitten with the idea of me drugging my dog next summer, saying it'd be better to just expose her to her fears and "not run away from them".. telling me that the results I'd see on the meds are "artificial." when I tried to tell her that the meds would be to enable me to help her get through them, she just didn't really get it. Sorry, but even "dog experts" don't know everything about fearful dogs..  She means well though, I just don't agree with her.


Ugh! I hate it when people think they know what's best for our fearful dogs. I've decided to just keep the med-thing between me, my husband and this thread...ha! I just think it's easier that way all around. There's really no good reason for anyone else to know. 

Yes...I gave her her first dose last night. I wasn't really sure to look for but I asked the fearful dog list and they said it was just to make sure that she didn't have any type of adverse reaction. I started with .25 mg and then bumped it up to .50. All seemed well...she wasn't dopey or hyperactive or anything. So we're going to try it out in a relatively low stress environment this weekend.

KB - Your Wally stories just keep making me smile. I hope that they keep coming!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, I'm not going to exactly be flaunting the fact that my dog is on meds, if I decide to go that route. I've heard so many stories of people saying hurtful things about it that it's just not worth it. I just thought she'd understand, being a dog person and all.. guess I was wrong.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

w00t! Quick and excited note. I took Tiberius out to the local pond and instead of just wading in so he was chest deep. He actually went swimming!! Ok..so first he had a panic attack when the water was too deep but he figured out the swimming thing pretty quick. Once I get the pics, I will post them. He also figured out pretty quick that if the water was too deep to have 4 on the floor, he would put his back feet down and then stand on me.  Ok..off to my job interview, wish me luck.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Does Donny get mad if you don't let him lay near you?
> 
> Wally kind of gets this "why not?!" look when I don't let him come over to this side of the room and lay in his spot between the tv stand and the desk (which is near me at the computer or closer if I'm sitting in my "regular" chair. When I cue him to his bed, he looks like I just beat him and go flop on his bed and sigh and I'll see these big brown eyes staring a hole in me until he finally goes to sleep.
> 
> Sometimes he'll get up and "ask" if he can come over (by barking or making these odd sounds and growl-ish noises and wagging his tail all wild like I can't see him if he doesn't)


Ha. No, Donatello doesn't get "mad", he just *pouts*. It's kind of cute... But if I put him in my room, tell him to "lay down" on my bed so I can exit the room, as I'm closing the door I watch him put his head in-between his paws and watch _me_ leave with the saddest expression on his face... As if he thinks I'll leave him forever. 

We've had a pretty good few days... I haven't had to use any of the anti-stress tablets.

Although- I did give Freckles _three_ of them two nights ago when we thought a bad storm was about to hit... All it did was rain.  She did seem more relaxed, even when the rain was coming down pretty hard...

Donatello didn't eat yesterday- But I don't think it's anything to be concerned about... I had to keep him seperated from the other dogs _all_ day yesterday. The Pug-puppy was seriously pushing some doggy-bounderies and there was about to be blood. No joke. So I kept Donatello loose in my room for most of the day. I was with him plenty through-out the day, we played one-on-one with his toys, he napped beside me while I worked on some drawings... So he didn't lack much yesterday, but I think the lazy day for him didn't stir up much of an appetite.

I'm going to try and give him something eat here in a few minutes, and see how he does...

Good luck to you Dunixi, and yay! for Tiberius's swimming expedition!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Yeah, I'm not going to exactly be flaunting the fact that my dog is on meds, if I decide to go that route. I've heard so many stories of people saying hurtful things about it that it's just not worth it. I just thought she'd understand, being a dog person and all.. guess I was wrong.


This made me think, "There are dog people. And then there are fearful dog people." Does anyone else feel like we're part of a secret society with a secret language that only WE can understand? 

Dunixi - I envy you being able to even get your dog in the water. Both of mine avoid it like the plague! (And I can just imagine Tiberius putting his paws on you...Ma! It's deep!)

Deege - I think you're right not to worry too much about Donatello not eating. I think some dogs have a built-in sensor to know whether they really need the calories or not. Hopefully, he'll chow down today!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> This made me think, "There are dog people. And then there are fearful dog people." Does anyone else feel like we're part of a secret society with a secret language that only WE can understand?


YES! It is very frustrating hearing self-appointed "dog experts" telling me that I should be walking Marge and making her "deal" with her fears, or not using treats because that's bribing her rolleyes. That's what makes threads like this so nice - for the most part, we're all on the same page, and no one fights and tells us "hey but I've had dogs for 60 years and I think I know a little bit!"


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## Maru1977 (Aug 10, 2009)

Hi everyone, I can't think of a better post to write thsi and I feel so much better after your success stories. I posted this on the Training forum and got some great replies but thought I'd repost here and see what other owners of fearful dogs think... By the way, we're meeting with a behaviorist tonight for the first time... THANKS!!!

"We have a 5 year old black lab mix. We adopted him from Animal Services in FL when he was 4 months old. With time he became an amazing familiy dog, sweet, easy to be around, fun. However he also started getting more and more protective and at times scared of strangers. We lived in a house with a yard and we were fine with him being protective, since he would be fine with people (friends, workers,etc) coming to the house. With time he started not liking certain people no matter how long they came over (cleaning lady came weekly for 2 years, he HATED her). So that was a problem... I started having to keep him in the yard when certain people were over. We recently sold our house to move to a condo in DC. My boss (who knows him since puppy) tried to pet him to say hi and he growled and showed her his teeth in a way I had never seen him do face to face (he'd done through the door with strangers). Finally Saturday the stroke that broke the camels back... We have been in our DC apt for a few weeks. We've been specially attentive to him and tried to teach him to behave in elevators and when he comes across strangers and dogs. He has lived in a single family home so this in itself was a big change. He had been doing extremely well, ignoring other dogs, we asked people no to pet him right away, etc. Last night we went to dinner to a restaurant a block away with a patio and took him with us in hopes of socializing him more and exposing him to city life and the neigborhood. He laid down under our table and did fine the first few times the servers came over. But one time, just out of the blue, the waitress stepped too close (I'm guessing) and he just bit her in the leg. Not hard enough to break the skin but enough to scare her and make her cry. I don't know what to do. I seriously think living in this apt with so many people, dogs, elevators, etc might be too much for him. But now what? We got him a basket muzzle for now and contacted a behaviorist for help. I'm scared of taking him out otherwise. I feared he would end up biting someone and now I don't know what to do. I should say we have a 3 year old daughter and he has been the most amazing dog ever with her, I would trust him entirely around her, but now I don't even know if thats responsible of me? (he has NEVER shown any sigs of stress of agression towards her or any of us)
Any ideas? Can you change a dog's temperament? Can he overcome his fear of people? 
Thanks everyone for reading this far and for any suggestions you may have. We love him a lot and he's a big part of our lives, but I can't live hearing something bad will happen again soon..."


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't know that you can change his temperament, per se. If he's a protective sort, then he'll probably be at least wary of other people outside of his "family". I think he'll be fine with your little girl (supervise always, however, when she and the dog are together. That would be responsible while also not denying her and the dog each other's company).

However, if the behaviors (biting, growling) are fear-based, helping him overcome his fear should lessen those behaviors. Keep in mind to never correct growling. That vocalization is a very important warning signal you can use to intervene before it becomes a bite. Correcting growling can make a dog think you don't want him to do it, so he'll be silent...until the bite comes "without warning". 

In addition to seeing the behaviorist, consider seeing a vet if he's not been checked up recently just to make sure nothing is injured/hurting that could be putting him in a foul mood. A dog in pain can make him feel he needs to protect himself even more as a survival instinct as well as just the bad mood.

I think you're doing the right things. You're managing as best you can (muzzling, control encounters) and have already made plans to see a behaviorist. Hopefully this thread and your behaviorist can help you resolve the problems as he does sound like a good dog around you and your family.

Considering working on some counter-conditioning as well. Try playing the Look at That game (explained later in the post) and teaching him what you'd like to do when he sees a person (sit and stay? be alert but wait for your move? bark but don't move? etc). 


Look at That Game in a nutshell:

1. Load yourself down with high value treats. You can use a clicker if you're a clicker trainer, or if not, just be ready with your "good dog" response and feed a treat right after.

2. When the dog looks at something that gets him riled up (the trigger as it's often called) give your click or good dog and a reward BEFORE he goes into his usual routine. For example, when I started with Wally, I would click and treat him before he started feeling like he needed to run. I wanted to praise a calm alertness. If he does go into his usual act (snarling, growling, lunging, etc) then move back and try again. You were too close for him to give you the response you're looking for. 

3. Keep this up for a bit (stop before he gets bored of it) and then go on your walk or have some fun, etc. Then when another trigger comes along, do step 2 again.

4. The goal is to get the dog to look at the trigger then look at YOU for his reward. You want him to say "Hey, I looked at that person, now where's my treat/reward?!


How this game works is you're pairing the trigger's presence with something he likes (usually tasty food for many dogs, but it could be a short game like 5 seconds of tug, a scratch behind the ears, whatever makes him REALLY happy). This is counter-conditioning against his previous association of strange person -> I better be on guard and ready to bite.

This also works because you're letting the dog acknowledge the trigger. You're letting him see what it is around him, and then rewarding him for do it. In CU (the book I learned the game from) it's compared to being able to look around while in a dark forest instead of focusing on your companion while still being even more worried about what's around you.

Lastly, it works because how/where the dog gets the reward provides some information to the dog. The reward ends the chain, so the behavior he did last gets attached to it. The whole chain is: see something -> look at something -> get reward. But the dog is going to wonder just where it came from. He'll put it together that it came from you ever time so when he wants the reward - he's going to look at you. This is the result the game is after. Victory is yours.

Over time, the look-but-stay-calmly-alert will become a habit and you won't need to formally play the game with that trigger (though it never hurts). But that takes time. Fortunately, the game is easy to play and it seems dogs end up loving it.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Maru--afraid I can't give any advice as I'm a novice at this fearful-dog thing myself...but I do hope that you get some good feedback from the behaivorist and that you are able to help your precious dog learn to overcome whatever is causing him to react this way.

I just have a few funny little tidbits about Brenna to share today. We had a couple over for Sunday dinner, and although Brenna was hesitant to come up and sniff their hands at first (they were a little too loud and tall for her liking), she did eventually warm up to them very well. Actually, she spent most of the meal standing, sitting or laying next to their chairs while we ate...of course, I think the fact that the roast beef was on their side of the table may have had something to do with that!  But hey, what better association could a dog have with a person than the smell of a good piece of meat!? 

Another happy note is that I think I caught Brenna actually wagging her tail at me a bit last night and again this morning. It was just the tiniest little wag, and it only lasted for a second or two, but coming from a dog who used to hold her tail tucked all the way to her tummy, that's a big deal! Now hubby is jealous, so I hope that Brenna will give him a little tail wag soon, too.

This morning on our walk we met the one friendly dog in the neighborhood--a cute medium small spaniel mix of some sort. He is allowed to roam around when his owners are working outside, and he always wants to come greet us when we walk by. I let Brenna stop so they could sniff each other, and both their tails were wagging. Then, Brenna jumped up and tried to invite him to play chase. It was so cute! Thankfully, she couldn't really go anywhere because I always walk her on a 6 ft. leash...or else she and her little friend would have been running out in the middle of the road! I sent him back home (he really is a very good dog to listen to me) and we went on our way. But it both makes me smile and breaks my heart to see Brenna wanting to play with other doggies. I am glad to see she still has that playful spirit in her, but I wish she knew that we want to play with her, too. And don't anybody go suggesting we get another dog...it's tempting, but we simply can't afford another mouth to feed! I wish we had a dog park here, but our town is too small for that. So, I guess I will have to find more friends with dogs and set up some play dates!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I jumped the gun and upset Jonas today when he was doing just fine.  I had previously posted about this Pit on the corner of a street near our house that rushes the fence and freaks out when we walk our dogs by. He almost comes over the fence, and has been particularly nasty towards Jack. I don't know if he's reactive or aggressive, so we avoid the corner.

WELL, today we were walking around the corner across the street from the house, and I see him outside of the yard with his owner (first time ever, in fact) and since they're near the car with the door open, I assume he's leashed and getting in/out. I look down at Smalls and Jonas to make sure they're not reacting, and a second later I look up and he's two feet in front of me running straight at Smalls. Thankfully, he isn't aggressive, and is in fact quite lovely outside of that yard. He just snuffled Smalls. When he turned to Jonas, I panicked, gasped, and scooped him up, which of course made him react and start barking/snarling at the dog. 

I put him back down after I realized my error, but I already riled him and he was freaking out at Tyson (I learned his name today!) who in return just peed on a stump and trotted away. Stupid mom.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Dunixi - I envy you being able to even get your dog in the water. Both of mine avoid it like the plague! (And I can just imagine Tiberius putting his paws on you...Ma! It's deep!)


ColoradoSooner, he didn't even flinch at walking in. Tiberius followed me right into the pond without thinking. After he was about chest deep he realized where he was and kinda panicked a bit. I am going to take him up again either tomorrow or Friday. I think part of what helped is his buddy Casanova was there and Cassie LOVES the water.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Ahh I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do in this thread!

Nothing's really been going on here the past couple of days. Been sooo hot and humid, she's getting a couple of walks on her 20 and that's it. I honestly don't have the desire to do behavior modification in the 90 degree heat.

I'm thinking next week will be the week we try to venture up the block again. I was going to do it today, but decided it was a bad idea because there is STILL construction going on.

We had a brief T-Storm last night, and she initially came running down to me to hide under the desk, but I asked her if she wanted treats and she followed me up to play the Feast game. And all was well.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Nothing's really been going on here the past couple of days. Been sooo hot and humid, she's getting a couple of walks on her 20 and that's it. I honestly don't have the desire to do behavior modification in the 90 degree heat.


Heh - ditto 

Fortunately, Wally is the same way. The only thing he wants to Look At is the water thermos LOL




MissMutt said:


> We had a brief T-Storm last night, and she initially came running down to me to hide under the desk, but I asked her if she wanted treats and she followed me up to play the Feast game. And all was well.


Awesome  Nice job


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Its been hot and humid here too. So other then taking Tiberius to the pond, I have just been letting him lounge around at Mom's and scare the mail lady. Yes, Mom's mail lady is afraid of big snuggly Tiberius. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one slacking in this heat/humidity


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Someone posted this on the Fearful Dog list I belong to and thought you guys would find it interesting. It's a scientific article about how stress affects the brain and how important downtime is (away from stress triggers) to help rewire the brain. (And KB, it kind of helps explain body memory, too.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/18/science/18angier.html?_r=1&em

A few excerpts:



> In other words, the rodents were now cognitively predisposed to keep doing the same things over and over, to run laps in the same dead-ended rat race rather than seek a pipeline to greener sewers. “Behaviors become habitual faster in stressed animals than in the controls, and worse, the stressed animals can’t shift back to goal-directed behaviors when that would be the better approach,” Dr. Sousa said. “I call this a vicious circle.”





> Happily, the stress-induced changes in behavior and brain appear to be reversible. To rattle the rats to the point where their stress response remained demonstrably hyperactive, the researchers exposed the animals to four weeks of varying stressors: moderate electric shocks, being encaged with dominant rats, prolonged dunks in water. Those chronically stressed animals were then compared with nonstressed peers. The stressed rats had no trouble learning a task like pressing a bar to get a food pellet or a squirt of sugar water, but they had difficulty deciding when to stop pressing the bar, as normal rats easily did.
> 
> But with only four weeks’ vacation in a supportive setting free of bullies and Tasers, the formerly stressed rats looked just like the controls, able to innovate, discriminate and lay off the bar.


Here, although they're talking about humans, I think the same thing happens in our fearful dogs.



> Unfortunately, the dynamism of our stress response makes it vulnerable to disruption, especially when the system is treated too roughly and not according to instructions. In most animals, a serious threat provokes a serious activation of the stimulatory, sympathetic, “fight or flight” side of the stress response. But when the danger has passed, the calming parasympathetic circuitry tamps everything back down to baseline flickering.
> 
> In humans, though, the brain can think too much, extracting phantom threats from every staff meeting or high school dance, and over time the constant hyperactivation of the stress response can unbalance the entire feedback loop. Reactions that are desirable in limited, targeted quantities become hazardous in promiscuous excess. You need a spike in blood pressure if you’re going to run, to speedily deliver oxygen to your muscles. But chronically elevated blood pressure is a source of multiple medical miseries.
> 
> Why should the stressed brain be prone to habit formation? Perhaps to help shunt as many behaviors as possible over to automatic pilot, the better to focus on the crisis at hand.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Interesting article, Colorado...thanks for sharing! The brain (human or otherwise) is a truly mysterious and amazing creation!  I feel sorry for those poor rats they had to put through so many stressful situations, though!

Well, Brenna had her first play date with Bella yesterday...and it was a little disappointing for both of us. Bella's owners brought her over to our house, and they brought some tennis balls along for her to chase. She loves to play fetch and catch, and they thought maybe seeing another dog play would encourage Brenna to chase after the balls. Well, I didn't really think so, but I went along with it because it couldn't hurt to try. 

The visit started out fine with both dogs sniffing each other and no signs of tension between them. Brenna was a little anxious about the humans and the strange car, so she wasn't ready to play right away...just needed some time to check everybody out. So while she was doing that, Bella's owners started playing fetch with her...and Bella was so totally fixated on the ball that she completely ignored Brenna! It was really strange to watch. When Bella would run out to catch a ball, Brenna would run after her and try to get her to play chase...but Bella acted as if she wasn't even there. This continued for a good half hour or so. Finally, Brenna gave up trying to play with Bella and just wandered around the yard or stood by me for petting. Even after the balls were put away, Bella really didn't act interested in Brenna at all. She was more interested in sniffing around the yard than paying attention to the dog the yard belonged to! I guess I should be thankful that at least Brenna got some good exercise and that the two dogs didn't show any outright dislike for each other. But I am mostly just disappointed that Bella showed no interest in playing with Brenna. Now I don't know whether to have her over again another time and see if they will act differently...or try to find some other dogs for her to play with. It was a really strange experience...


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

I know, Cocoa! I felt the same way about the rats. Poor guys!

If I were you, I'd probably give it another go with Bella. When we first adopted Mayzie, she and Ranger didn't play with each other at all. It took them a bit to get to know each other and now they're play-maniacs! LOL. 

Bella might have been a bit stressed, too, being in an unfamiliar place. (Sniffing is a calming signal.) Plus, your yard probably had all sorts of interesting new smells! It doesn't sound like either dog was worried about the other one, so I would definitely try it a few more times. Once they're more familiar and comfortable with each other, I wouldn't be surprised if they start initiating play. And even if they don't, it's good socialization experience.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

So I spoke with my vet's office today.

We're in a holding pattern for another two $%#[email protected]%$# weeks with Marge. I basically told them that the Melatonin didn't really help for walks, but that she now DOES respond better to loud noises. She still cannot walk around the block.. I tried walking her a couple of houses down and she started to go real slow, tail went down, I got her to sniff a pole but then she heard whatever was going on in the surrounding area and she just wasn't happy. 

I know my dog.. I know pushing her through walks is not going to help her. But I just don't know how to correct this. If we go into the field, she's fine (though was kinda slow goin' today, I don't know if it was the product of walking in the opposite direction just minutes before). It's been hot, I haven't been able to take her to the park because of that. 

So I'm basically going to wait a couple more weeks, til the weather cools off a bit and the mornings are quiet, so I can attempt to walk my dog around the block without the hustle and bustle of summer. If by then I still see no improvement, well.. I'm not really sure. The first thing that springs into my mind is situational medicine. Colorado, I think it was you who said it.. dogs' lives are too short to worry about any stigmas medication may hold. I feel like Marge had such a pointless, boring summer.. I want her to get back out, instead of walking in the middle of nowhere, interacting with absolutely no one.

Tomorrow there's an agility trial at a nearby park. I know several people and dogs who will be there. I'm going to go, but I'm on the fence about whether Marge should come with me or not. It would be good for me to see how she is at a trial, even though we'll just be hanging out along the sidelines. Since I plan on trialing with her in the future, it seems like a good idea. There are also several places in the park I can take her so she can relax. She's been to the park before, and except for last time, when she WAS uncomfortable, she does like it there.

But on the flipside, I find myself being a little bit selfish. What if I don't want to deal with a potentially panicking dog and I just want to watch the show? What if I don't want to have to move away and do nothing but dole out treats? 

UGH.. if only it were easy. Thank goodness you're such a darn sweetie, Marge.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

It's been an unusual couple days for us.

A couple days ago, some guys were sitting in their front yard and Wally saw them. I was getting ready to start re-directing, etc, but he just looked alert. So I watched. Suddenly he let out with some grrrr-ruff! grrrr-ruff! high pitched barks and darted back, but then turned right back around and did it again. He was trying to invite them to play! He did it again before he just looked at me like "why aren't they playing?" 

Then there was a cat looking through the patio door. Wally saw him and the cat ran off. I opened the door and Wally whined to come out too. So I let him out. He started sniffing around. He saw the cat hiding in the darkness (I couldn't see it at all...) And chased it out of the yard.

Then earlier today - we were being followed by a loose dog (he had a collar and tags so I guess he just got loose) and didn't know it. I just happened to turn around and there he was. All three of us kind of just froze. Wally started growling but stayed alert and was confident. I let him approach, but slowly and calmly and the other dog was calm so I didn't feel like there was a threat. Wally sniffed him and they sniffed noses. 

I can tell Wally still doesn't like dogs come around to sniff him from the side - still need to work on that part of the greeting ritual. But otherwise, Wally was really curious about the dog. When the dog marked a fire hydrant, Wally was sniffing while he peed  talk about invasion of personal space! Anyway, Wally just got all into him and start gruffing and getting the dog's attention. I was able to just calmly get him focused back on me so we could keep walking. 

Still, a big difference from the way he was before with stray dogs. He would have stood his ground if needed and he was curious instead of afraid once there wasn't a threat. Making progress - just need to get him more secure in that a dog sniffing his butt isn't a threatening thing.



MissMutt said:


> I know my dog.. I know pushing her through walks is not going to help her. But I just don't know how to correct this. If we go into the field, she's fine (though was kinda slow goin' today, I don't know if it was the product of walking in the opposite direction just minutes before). It's been hot, I haven't been able to take her to the park because of that.
> 
> So I'm basically going to wait a couple more weeks, til the weather cools off a bit and the mornings are quiet, so I can attempt to walk my dog around the block without the hustle and bustle of summer. If by then I still see no improvement, well.. I'm not really sure. The first thing that springs into my mind is situational medicine. Colorado, I think it was you who said it.. dogs' lives are too short to worry about any stigmas medication may hold. I feel like Marge had such a pointless, boring summer.. I want her to get back out, instead of walking in the middle of nowhere, interacting with absolutely no one.
> 
> Tomorrow there's an agility trial at a nearby park. I know several people and dogs who will be there. I'm going to go, but I'm on the fence about whether Marge should come with me or not. It would be good for me to see how she is at a trial, even though we'll just be hanging out along the sidelines. Since I plan on trialing with her in the future, it seems like a good idea. There are also several places in the park I can take her so she can relax. She's been to the park before, and except for last time, when she WAS uncomfortable, she does like it there.



Wow, sorry you and Marge are still having set-backs  

I think the calmer surroundings will help you two out and of course do whatever you need to do with the medicine/supplements. 

Not only has it been a tough summer, but it's time that also lost on getting her back out there where you can do your work with her. I think whatever you can do to get her back out there is the top priority.

I hope she and you can enjoy the trials. You two know each other, you'll figure this out one way or another.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

We're not still having setbacks, per se.. it's more like we're not going anywhere. I mean, during the worst weeks of this summer, Marge was even afraid to walk in the field when there was no one around. At least now she's perfectly relaxed when she's out there, for the most part. We just had a nice short walk out there before.. but I feel like that's all that we're doing. We did go to Petsmart the other day, that wasn't so bad and I think I'm going to try to make it a weekly excursion. She was briefly in a park on the same day and enjoyed herself too. But other than that, I can't really remember the last time we did anything new or exciting. Partially because of the weather, partially because she's too scared and I just don't know when to make that leap and get her going around the neighborhood.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Marge might surprise you at the trial! I was hesitant, but we took Jonas to Woofstock, and he really came out of his shell. People were basically props, not grabbing at dogs, and he just had a nice time checking out other dogs. Typically he panics walking anywhere crowded, and a car door slamming or people shouting on our walks usually results in me having to carry him home, but somehow he did well in a dog friendly setting, even though it was obviously QUITE noisy. 

Until the live band started, anyway. Why would you have a live band in the middle of a dog event?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Marge might surprise you at the trial!


She did.

Oh man.. she really did.

We got there and she was kinda like "ummm what are these tents and many dogs? .. I just wanna sniff sniff sniff and act like they're not there.."

Then when she saw people and dogs she knew, she was less concerned. We hung around for awhile.. we were pretty much in the same place as all of the competitors so she showed me that she can relax to some degree while waiting to run. 

I snuck her over the practice jump a couple of times..  She enjoyed that.

She started getting that "look" that she gets before she reacts when she saw the dogs running Tunnelers, which, admittedly, is an exciting class.. so that's when I decided that was enough for one day.

She also got charged by a #%$#@ dog who was hanging out under a tent, but recovered well from it and was fine afterwards. She made friends with some new people, even did decently with a couple of men.

It was a very quiet trial.. definitely a good time to bring her.

Thank you, Marge, for making me eat my words.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Thank you, Marge, for making me eat my words.


Gotta love it when they make you look silly for worrying about them 

Best feeling I get is when I worry about Wally's reaction and he's like "pffft, whatever".

You go Marge - and you too Miss Mutt.



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Until the live band started, anyway. Why would you have a live band in the middle of a dog event?




That's...interesting.

I guess they thought the dogs wouldn't care.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Woohoo for Marge!! They do have a way of making us eat our words. Good to hear that she did great.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Cocoa: You've described a situation we've been in many times. Poca is not really ball-focused but she'll play along just to chase the other dogs. But she really doesn't understand why they don't think she is much more interesting. IME ball-focused dogs do not make fun playmates for dog-focused dogs like mine. I would keep seeing Bella, though. She may come around and the socialization is good. And I would find some other pups for her to play with. Course, in our world, you can never know enough dogs!



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Until the live band started, anyway. Why would you have a live band in the middle of a dog event?


Amen! We've been to dog fairs and Poca is generally fine. One or two things will make her shy away, but it's all over when the damn band comes out. Aarrggh!

MM: I'm glad you decided to go and Marge had a good day at the event. After reading your other post, I was thinking that maybe you should forget about neighborhood walks for now. Maybe it's time to reset your goals. That may seem like a step backwards, but is it really? Or is it just a side-step so you can follow another path? Dunno. I do know that the only way I can deal with frustration is to try something else. It may take longer to get to the goal, but the ride is usually interesting.

So....just a quick shout out to all of you for recommending the "look at that" game & to KB for the description of it. I've read about it before but hadn't really tried it. After seeing Poca's response to it the other day, I think it could be a very powerful tool.

The landscape company sent two guys over to fix a leaking valve box in our sprinkler system. Poca went bonkers as usual, barking and running from window to window. After this went on for about 5 minutes, I put some peanut butter in a kong and went over to her where she was positioned at the back door staring and barking at the landscapers. I started saying "look at that!" and said "good" and gave her a lick of the kong just as she was starting to bark again. Stopped her in her tracks and she actually licked the kong while she watched the guys outside. Lick, lick..bark, barkLOOK AT THAT/GOOD!...lick, lick...ruh-ruhLOOK AT THAT/GOOD!...lick, lick...grrrLOOK AT THAT/GOOD!...lick, lick....silence...LOOk AT THAT/GOOD! lick, lick...more silence. They left before we could get to her laying down calmly with a kong while watching them, but I know we would have gotten there. I'm definitely going to keep trying this. Thanks again!!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I just don't get a band at a DOG centered event. The venue was extremely small, so they were right in the middle. The second they came out (No one even knew a band was coming) there was all this feedback, and most of the dogs went bonkers. I doubt they'll do it again next year. A lot of people looked disgusted and left. I let the people at the gate know on my way out that we were leaving because of the band/how loud they were, and that I thought it was a poor choice for the event.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Cocoa: You've described a situation we've been in many times. Poca is not really ball-focused but she'll play along just to chase the other dogs. But she really doesn't understand why they don't think she is much more interesting. IME ball-focused dogs do not make fun playmates for dog-focused dogs like mine. I would keep seeing Bella, though. She may come around and the socialization is good. And I would find some other pups for her to play with. Course, in our world, you can never know enough dogs!


This used to happen with Marge, too, back when we'd frequent the DP. Although she does chase balls sometimes, she found it much more fun to chase the dogs while they were chasing balls. Similarly, she also VERY often tried to get into the middle of other dogs' play sessions, especially when they were playing chase.. it was as if she felt more comfortable joining into an already existing game rather than initiating one of her own.

Winnie, I'm glad to hear Look at That is working well for you. It works best for me at agility class when Marge is watching the other dogs run. I haven't had much success with it in my neighborhood, but I think that's because uncontrollable things can happen so randomly (loud car going by, person coming up to us) that wouldn't happen at agility.

TWAB - is there anyone you could complain to? I'd be pretty angry if I just enjoyed a day out with my dog only for it to be spoiled by a loud band. ALOT of dogs have sound phobias.. seems like a very large lapse in judgement for whoever put the event together!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> TWAB - is there anyone you could complain to? I'd be pretty angry if I just enjoyed a day out with my dog only for it to be spoiled by a loud band. ALOT of dogs have sound phobias.. seems like a very large lapse in judgement for whoever put the event together!


I sent an e-mail to the event planenrs and called the SPCA (they were apart of running it) the minute I got home! I told them bands are for people and as much as I appreciate a good concert, we were there for our dogs, and that two of my dogs are EXTREMELY sensitive to noise and the event was ruined for us. We'll see if they do it again next year.

Our foster dog Magpie is here. She's a doozy of a fearful dog, but I think it'll be fixed easily and swiftly. She seems like she's NEVER been inside before (terrified of any thing and every thing. Even our coffee table. Just got close to it for a second and then booked it) and will not come inside on her own if she gets into the yard. She was fine on the introduction walk with our dogs, but ran like hell from them in the yard/curled up when cornered by a happy Smalls and peed on herself/bared her teeth. She's also in appalling condition. This rescue had her for five months and she's covered in mange and itching herself bloody. Her eyes are even swollen and the lids are bloody. I know funding was low, but they let her fester in a garage like this? What kind of rescue is that? I gave her a dip and the running water scared her senseless. She finally stopped panting after a couple hours and is actually sleeping by my boyfriend, who she seems to favor.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hello! Hope everyone's doing well.

Okay, this is a really dumb thing to post but I need some "rah rah you can do it" encouragement from the gallery. 

We got Mayzie in March and we have never given her a bath. And, well, she really needs one. She is smelling doggier and doggier (is that a word?) and I noticed that the couch is starting to smell doggy. Not what I want at all!

But I have no idea how she feels about water or if she's really ever been bathed before. (Although I'm sure the rescue did it at least once.) If she was any other dog, she would've been plopped in the tub by now. But I keep putting it off because I don't want to totally freak her out. I know it's totally an emotional - not logical at all - thing on my part. And I know that even if she hates it, she will live and will most likely bounce back quickly.

So somebody please tell me to get in there and suds up that dog!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Marge HATES getting a bath and it does freak her out, but sometimes I just have to suck up and do it. Maybe give Mayzie a pill beforehand just in case?

Although, the last time Marge got dirty, I took her out into the backyard, filled up some big bowls with water and used paper towels to basically drench her. She didn't like it, but she wasn't as scared as when she is in the tub. I shampooed the really dirty parts, rinsed out with the paper towel and let her air dry. It was annoying, it wasn't as efficient as a regular bath, but it worked. 

Today we have agility class, and my cousin (or, really, my mom's cousin) is tagging along - Marge has met her, but it will be interesting to see how she reacts to being in the car with her, etc. Above all, I just hope she's not reactive at class.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jonas and Jack both hate the bath. Well, no. Jack will not let ME bathe him, but he'll let my boyfriend. Jonas makes gut wrenching screams and fights like I'm going to drown him. So, being the over zealous mom I am, I put on my swim suit and get in there with him. He can sit on my lap and get scrubbed. He has since stopped screaming since I've sat in there with him. 

Smalls loves the tub so much she cries if I'm in the shower and she can't get in. Just stands there and paws the side of the tub. For her first bath way back when we tried turning the water on and seeing how she responded, cautious, blah blah blah but the second her feet touched that water she was in heaven.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

TWAB - I actually don a bathing suit when I bathe Ranger, too. So I'm sure that "bathing with Mayzie" will be in my future. 

MissMutt - Has Marge ever ridden in the car with anyone other than you? I'm sure she'll be fine, both in the car and at agility. (By the way, I was SO happy that she did so great at the trial last weekend!)

KB - Sounds like Wally-boy is making more huge leaps! That's so exciting! This cracked me up:



> When the dog marked a fire hydrant, Wally was sniffing while he peed talk about invasion of personal space!


Mayzie does that with Ranger sometimes and he actually PEED on her head once.  The first thing that came out of my mouth was "Don't pee on your sister!" Words I never, ever thought I'd say!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> MissMutt - Has Marge ever ridden in the car with anyone other than you? I'm sure she'll be fine, both in the car and at agility. (By the way, I was SO happy that she did so great at the trial last weekend!)


She's ridden in the with a few people, but most of them are my immediate family members. The "strangest" person she's been in the car with is one of my elderly neighbors.

About the trial - thanks! I was really happy about how well she did, too. Hopefully we have a repeat of that tonight.

She was iffy on her walk today.. not panicky, just not totally comfortable. It was hot though, and sometimes it's hard to tell when Marge is scared versus when she's hot.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> KB - Sounds like Wally-boy is making more huge leaps! That's so exciting! This cracked me up:
> 
> Mayzie does that with Ranger sometimes and he actually PEED on her head once.  The first thing that came out of my mouth was "Don't pee on your sister!" Words I never, ever thought I'd say!



LOL wow!

Yeah, I can imagine what people might be thinking if they just heard that without seeing what was going on. I bet they'd be like 

About bath times - Wally hates baths but he just shakes a little and takes it. He tries to shake, but I just put my hand on his back and "interrupt" it and say "don't even" heh. He looks at me like "BUTWHYI'MALLWETANDITFEELSWEIRD!"

But then, it's the "moving in super fast speed" after he's done, barking and tail wagging. Such a weird dog.

Then again, Wally doesn't like being groomed, so I guess he doesn't want to be touched that way


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I learned something new yesterday..TIiberius loves baseballs...he shredded one yesterday. He actually played fetch with me in the yard!  It was a good day!


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Hey guys- I'm back for a tremendously big update!

I haven't been around much because I've got so much going on in my life... But I'm still finding the time to work with Donatello of course!

I've come to a sad conclusion that I'm unhappy with my lifestyle, and that I'm dangerously addicted to eating... So... Having said that, Donatello is going to be my little motivator.

We're bike riding!

Can you believe it?

Over the last couple days I've taken Donatello out to the garage, (which he's not scared of the garge door, go figure!  ) and I've shown him my bike. He used to growl at the damn thing when it sat behind a sofa, well- He's not entirely comfortable with the tires, but who would be when the tires are bigger than you are?

Anyway- I was able to tie his six-foot lead to the handlebar, and clipped it to his harness. Whenever he wears his harness, it's like he knows he has to behave different, like his "working"-mode.  lmao.

He already knows when I say "stop" he's to stop moving completly; He can also judge what different tugs on the leash means, a tug on the leash when he's behind me means move faster, even the slighest tug when he's ahead of me means to slow down.

I just have to teach him "left" and "right".

But he is already so good at this! He stays right by the bicycle and quickly forgets it's even there. He stayed right with me the whole time, he slowed down when I slowed down, and he sped up when I did... It was amazing! I had him bookin' it too!  I can see he'll like it, once he's used to it, and once I get a better control of commands with him we'll go for longer bike rides... We only biked up and down the street once, for about a total of 4 minutes...

Anyway... For a fearful dog to do so well with _bike riding_, that has got to show his accomplishments!

I hope everyone and their dogs have been doing well! : )


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Deege - I was just thinking about you today and wondering where you were.

That is utterly amazing! When you said that "we're bike riding," I thought for sure you meant that you were riding the bike and Donatello was riding in a little basket in the front.  I never imagined that little guy running alongside you. That's just fabulous and I know it will be fun for both of you. Congrats!


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Deege - I was just thinking about you today and wondering where you were.
> 
> That is utterly amazing! When you said that "we're bike riding," I thought for sure you meant that you were riding the bike and Donatello was riding in a little basket in the front.  I never imagined that little guy running alongside you. That's just fabulous and I know it will be fun for both of you. Congrats!


Thank you, I have certainly missed talking to you all... : ) I hope you are well.

Haha, I do have a basket that I can put on my bike, and he'd probably fit in it, but I don't want to bruise his ego.  lol.

I know, he's a small little thing, but he's got amazing speed, and amazing stamania (sp), all the more reason I think he's got Manchester Terrier in him...

It takes a lot to wear him out and get him panting...

He is becoming a big-couch potato; He loves the backyard, but he knows- "Hey, I live here now, I don't have to run _all_ the time..."


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> He already knows when I say "stop" he's to stop moving completly; He can also judge what different tugs on the leash means, a tug on the leash when he's behind me means move faster, even the slighest tug when he's ahead of me means to slow down.
> 
> I just have to teach him "left" and "right".
> 
> But he is already so good at this! He stays right by the bicycle and quickly forgets it's even there. He stayed right with me the whole time, he slowed down when I slowed down, and he sped up when I did... It was amazing! I had him bookin' it too!  I can see he'll like it, once he's used to it, and once I get a better control of commands with him we'll go for longer bike rides... We only biked up and down the street once, for about a total of 4 minutes...


That's just awesome - great job!

I use "keep up" and "slow down" a lot with Wally, but he'll understand the leash tugs too. Good that he'll respond to even slight tugs. I find that an advantage when he wants to walk all fast and I don't and the leash gets tight and he immediately looks back and slows down. 

I haven't taught left and right very well - need to put more time in with that. 

So wonderful that he's taking part with you  That's just great. You go, you two!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

That's awesome Deege!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

How do I.. uh.. get Jonas to stop being racist? Now, I understand he doesn't have the capacity to be racist, but he goes into a fury like I've never seen if he meets someone black, and when they easily brave the tiny barking dog and are close enough, he cowers and urinates on himself, which is something he hasn't done with strangers for over a year. I know the color spectrum is different for dogs, but I don't know how to get him out of this, as our town is predominantly white and my black friends live two hours away in our old town. We just don't see enough people to use any of our practical methods.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

It's going to be difficult without exposure, imo. 

Far as I know, Wally might not like Asians - as far as I know, he's never met one. Not sure how he'd react. Like you said, different "tint", different facial features, etc.

It's almost like with black dogs and him. There aren't a lot of black dogs, so it's hard to do any methods on any kind of basis and when there is one, it's usually straight to reaction mode.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey everyone! Not much going on around here today...had a good walk with Brenna this morning. We had another run in with the "bad dogs" on our walk last night, but hubby was with me and protected us!  Actually, the owners must be taking their dogs with them during the day because they had just arrived home when we were rounding the corner, and all the dogs hopped out of the van and started charging toward us. I still haven't called AC yet...but I will...I just have to muster up the courage.

There is a possibility we will enroll Brenna in beginner obedience classes at the local junior college this fall. I need to talk to hubby about it again, but I emailed the lady that will be teaching and told her about Brenna's background and struggles. She just replied back and told me that she thinks the class would work well for Brenna...It sounds as if she has alot of experience with fearful dogs, both in class and at home with her own adopted pups. So, if we can afford it, I think we'll try it out. I would love to have this opportunity to learn more about how to work with training Bren, not to mention help build her confidence level and give her more positive social experiences!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think classes will be great for Brenna. IT took a long time for me to decide to make the leap into classes, but I'm so glad I did it. Five months later, Marge was a CGC and beginning agility! You will accomplish alot in the presence of people who truly know how to handle fearful dogs.

I actually have a really good update. It's cool here, dark, overcast, and windy, and we went out to walk, stopped over to say hello to my neighbor.. and Marge chose to CONTINUE WALKING UP THE BLOCK! Granted, we only walked down a few houses and then turned back because I didn't want anything scary to happen, but I was THRILLED.

Winter Marge is coming back.. winter Marge is coming back.. *dance*


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

My Maximus, my little abused longhair Dachshund, barked at me to get into my lap a few days ago. I didn't think he liked to sit with me, I usually only do it when I cut his nails. But he barked while I was sitting in the computer chair (the only chair in the living room they're allowed on) and he howled at me. I looked down, and he was doing a happy wiggle dance. I asked if he wanted up, and he launched at me. He even wagged his tail when he was sitting with me. 

I've also noticed he's excited to go on walks now. He doesn't just go anymore bc the other dogs are going. He doesn't cower anymore when I put his harness on. I'm just so happy for my little man. He's a totally different dog than the one that came to us a year ago next month.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Sounds like good news all around. I agree with MM - must be the fall weather coming on. 

We've been struggling with Poca this last week. She got sick again last weekend (colitis/IBD) so I took her to the vets. She was way worse than any other visit to the vet.  She was there a month ago for the same thing, but that time my husband took her and it was a disaster - he doesn't know how to work with her when she gets scared and his anxiety only makes her worse. She wouldn't accept the muzzle, they had to put a blanket over her head to treat her. Very sad. I thought she would be better this time with me, but no go. Her memories from the last time were too strong to overcome. So we actually went _backwards_ in training her to be comfortable at the vet.

Sigh. So I took her back on Thursday to spend time walking around the parking lot (yes folks, she's now reacting in the parking lot), trying to see if I could get her close enough to walk inside. No go. I backed my Jimmy up to the front sidewalk and opened the hatch so she could stay inside where she felt safe and just look at the door. She finally became interested in the peanut butter and at one point even came outside the truck to get it about 10 ft from the door. But that was as close as she got.

The vet and staff are willing to work with her and help make her feel more comfortable (this is a vet who gets her tub of chunky peanut butter out when she knows Poca is coming and allows extra time for her appt) - I just love these guys. So we'll keep working on it. I work at home on Thursdays so we'll be at the vets every Thursday I'm not too busy with work. It's a 30 minute drive so it's not something we can just pop in and do. But once she's ok with me on Thursdays, my husband can take her on Tuesdays, and we can both go every other Saturday. Sound like fun yet? Don't know that she'll ever love the place but if I can at least get her to walk in willingly and accept the muzzle again, I'll be happy. The good news is that once she's on the exam table (motorized so it can be raised from the floor to exam height - thank god!) she shuts down and doesn't fight at all. She's not tense or panting too heavily. She accepts that they're going to do what they're going to do. I'm not crazy about the idea of her shutting down but I'd much rather she respond that way than bite someone. 

Poor baby. She's doing much better physically, though. Appetite is back, she's downing her meds with no issues. Playing and running around. Having a ball at daycare. It's all good...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Awww, I hate vet visits.  Sorry for the setback. Sounds like you're doing all you can to make it an easier thing for Poca to go through.

Have you ever tried something OTC to use at vet visits? Melatonin, Rescue Remedy, DAP spray?


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Not yet, but I may try it if it doesn't get better. She just started acting this way since we moved & changed vets last year. She liked going to her old vet. Thinking back, we didn't spend enough time getting her used to the new place. Frankly, since it had never been a problem, it didn't occur to me that it would start being one now. Live and learn.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally is the same way. He knows what the vet building looks like and will be all like "umm...I don't think we should be here..." 

Then, of course, inside he's shaking and pacing and pawing me. Doesn't help that there's the occasional yelp or other dogs barking in anxiety.

He probably is wondering "what the **** is going on in there and why are we just sitting here?! We should be leaving!"

It's funny because the vet commented on how well behaved he was. I was shocked because I didn't think he meant my dog. I was like "oh, um, thank you." and thinking "well-behaved?!" I guess it was because he wasn't yelping or barking or going crazy or something. To me, I would give him a "C" at best for his last vet visit.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

You know, it's odd to hear all of you talking about the fright of vet visits...when that is actually one place I can take Brenna and know she will be relatively okay. I mean, she does act a little nervous, but even on that crazy Health Fair day when the whole waiting room was packed with whining, barking dogs, Bren decided to just lie down and watch the world go by. Go figure!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Ok...so Tiberius has been making leaps and bounds with his fears. He is still a bit nervous about things, but is getting better. The one thing I can't seem to get him over is his fear of doorways. Yes, my dog is afraid of doorways. At first I thought it was just him wanting me to go first, but no, he is scared of them. I will open the door, and step out (because he won't go first) and instead of walking through, he will bolt until he hits the end of his leash and then stand there shaking. I have tried keeping the leash short so he has to stay near me. My next try is to use treats, lock my cats up and practice walking in and out of the door with lots of treats.
He has been hit with the screen door a time or two by accident. He will sometimes pause going through the door and if you're not watching (as my Mom and I learned) he will get hit. We have since started making sure he is in before letting go of the door. Any suggestions?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That's actually a pretty common fear Dunixi, from what I've heard from others. 

I would definitely try the treats.. maybe you can even play "Look at That" with him near the doorway (if he's afraid of it, he'll probably be looking at it anyway, so it'll be easy to reward him for it.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

He is fine with the door...the door is no problem. Its it actually being opened that scares the hell outta him. I will try look at that with him next time I get a chance to lock my cats up and leave the door open...Thanks MM


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

alright.

im stumped.


i posted a while back a bit about Bolo's one fear....water.


its utterly irrational and nothing i am doing is working. id like to be able to bathe her. she cant go the rest of her life without a bath.

im out of steam...any ideas?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

OMG Zim.

I JUST sent you a PM asking about that post. 

Funny timing.. 

I gotta go to class now but I'll come back with whatever I've got (which isn't much, Marge has the same problem)


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

yeah I just saw.

and I take it back. Its not an irrational fear in that I know why she's scared of water

the ex..curse his blighted self...somehow(well I know that too...he saw it on TV..guess where?  ) got the idea that dragging Bolo out into deep ocean water against her will would cure her of her dislike of water. on a f**king prong collar no less..

now she's terrified of water instead of just moderatly unfond of it.

and I've tried everything I can pull out of my brains and nothing is going..

grr....


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## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

This is a funny post. I mean it's like a blog it should be sticky  Everyone posting their insight on about their fearful dog and how they are handling it I really love this thread! As matter fact I was thinking about this thread last night maybe I'll clime in to tell you how things are going with Frankie in my next post


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the ex..curse his blighted self...somehow(well I know that too...he saw it on TV..guess where?  ) got the idea that dragging Bolo out into deep ocean water against her will would cure her of her dislike of water. on a f**king prong collar no less..




What? Wow...

I know how you train so I'm not even sure what to suggest that you probably haven't tried already


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

she flips out. i have to bodily restrain her to try and give her a bath. this is full on doggy panic. Me and the ex had a lot of arguments about stuff like that that he called "training"

ive tried slow introduction, lots of treats, look at that, pretty much everything....ive honestly been mildly toying with a really wild plan that i wont do but cant help but be tempted to use her dog aggression to overcome her fear. like go out to the lake and stick a friend and their dog in a boat and and then let her go and encourage her to go after the dog. the other dog would be safe because of the distance and being in a boat that can easily move faster than a swimming dog but it would totally blow all her de aggression training and i cant think of a way around that. 

i wont do it...but at this point its tempting.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Guess we now know why your ex is, well, your ex! 

I'm with KB. I know you've probably tried lots of things. Have you narrowed down the "type" of water she's afraid of? For instance, she's probably not afraid of the water in her bowl. Is it big bodies of water? ("Big" being relative to a dog, of course.) Is she okay with shallow pools or puddles on the street, for instance?

I think I would just start where she's okay and start building a positive association from there with treats, etc. So if that means that you're treating her for standing next to a cupful of water you've poured on the concrete (or in the tub), that's where you start. If she's utterly terrified, you have to go back to the smallest increment that she can be okay with and build from there.

Of course, she may never be okay with the ocean. But I bet you can work her up to a bath.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Bolo's reactions to various "waters"


water bowl: approach with caution, if it makes noise, jump back and raise hackles

puddle: jump over it.

rain: dart madly for whatever qualifies as cover

river: utter disdain

lake: wide eyed avoidance

ocean and bath: screaming panic


and yeah i will never forgive that sorry excuse for a male for his stupid crap like that.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Wow, Zim, that IS some serious fear. How long has it been since the ocean incident?

Maybe you could see if you could get her on "It's Me or the Dog." 

But seriously, apart from treating her every single time she's near water (including the water bowl), I'm stumped.

Do you think part of her utter panic at being bathed is the bathtub itself? Maybe that's where you should start. Play the look at that game with the bathtub. Put treats on the side of the bathtub. Place her in the bathtub, treat, take her immediately out. Then when she's comfortable with that, just have the bottom of it wet (not standing water...just wet) and keep building from there?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Well she's got high prey drive, doesn't she? You can't produce squirrels or birds the way you can ask a friend to help with a dog, but maybe there's a way..

Or I'm trying to think of a floor surface that maybe you could put a TINY puddle of water (like 1 in x 1 in) on the floor using a dropper or something and have her target it with her paw?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

its been over a year since the ocean incident but that was definatly the turning point from mild dislike to fear and what appears to be utter loathing. Bolo says "Water is only for drinking" 

ill give it a shot..ill give almost anything a shot at this point because having to choose between full body restraint and not giving a real bath is pretty annoying.

man you should have seen her when she came out of the water that day...she snapped the prong open and bolted from him and swam like a bat out of hell towards the shore and made a beeline towards me.

it probably didnt help that i was screaming at him about how much of a dumbass he was for doing that...*sighI



MissMutt said:


> Well she's got high prey drive, doesn't she? You can't produce squirrels or birds the way you can ask a friend to help with a dog, but maybe there's a way..
> 
> Or I'm trying to think of a floor surface that maybe you could put a TINY puddle of water (like 1 in x 1 in) on the floor using a dropper or something and have her target it with her paw?


the beaver we saw at the lake got her about a foot deep before she realized where she was and bolted for shore. if there was some way i could repeat that and reward her for it that would be awesome...


hmm...little tiny drops of water on the floor..she will just lick up. but maybe there is something there...hm...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

*thinking*

This could be dangerous, but... got any friends with a boat and a small fuzzy creature (rather than a dog)? Or maybe even a pelt/hide if Bolo will fall for that? She probably won't be able to make out the difference if she's far enough away..

I know that for Marge, hamburger bits thrown into the lake are usually enough to get her about a foot deep (the bath is another story though).. I had NO idea that Bolo's problem was widespread to the point of the water bowl.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> *thinking*
> 
> This could be dangerous, but... got any friends with a boat and a small fuzzy creature (rather than a dog)? Or maybe even a pelt/hide if Bolo will fall for that? She probably won't be able to make out the difference if she's far enough away..
> 
> I know that for Marge, hamburger bits thrown into the lake are usually enough to get her about a foot deep (the bath is another story though).. I had NO idea that Bolo's problem was widespread to the point of the water bowl.


its almost silly..Miss "im a Big BAD NASTY BITCH"(<--her words not mine)

is a huge weenie when it comes to a little h2o. 


im concerned about putting anything even at moderate risk. i just dont know...i think i may be approaching it wrong..like instead of trying one thing at a time i should map out an approach that incorporates multiple approaches.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Hmm...so she'll lick up water on the floor.

Perhaps that's your window inside. 

Put some water on the floor, but instead of her licking it up immediately, maybe have her step on it, then c/t? Start with a relatively small amount, just enough so that her paw would fit in the "puddle". 

Get her used to putting a paw on water and show her it's something she can be rewarded for. Perhaps she'll take that behavior and run with it after a while. I know Wally would. He'd be stepping in his water bowl and grinning at me like he did something grand  which is why I haven't done this with him.

Or maybe use a saucer with some water in it. (or a lid to a tupperware bowl or the like) Do the look at that or shaping with it. If she sniffs it, c/t. If she looks at it, c/t and so on. Maybe she'd eventually work up the courage to touch it with her paw.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I thought about telling Zim to put the water into some kind of dish, but I'm worried that if she puts her paw in the lip/container/whathaveyou, it could move and then she'll be freaked out if the water splashes or spills.

Is there anything heavy-duty that would withstand the Bolo's pit bull pawsies and not move around?


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Hello guys/gals... 

It's been a few days. (Probably a few weeks.) I've been busy with a lot of things going on around here.

Being accepted into that art school was MAJOR for me, and I'm already 3/4 of the way done with Lesson 1.  Woot!

So aside from that, there are some pretty tough stuff going on here at the house.

Tension, friction, hot-water, you name it- Donatello and I are living in it... I'm doing my best to keep Donatello calm. I've been taking him outside a lot more, I've been playing/romping with him in the house a lot more, trying to keep the energy between -him- and -me- good...

Well, today, I decided to teach him a new trick. "Play dead"... I started working with him, he's almost got it down-pat, I take him outside for a time-out with the other dogs... A plate gets "broken" inside, loud enough to _freak_ all the dogs outside, so then Donatello shuts-down, or tries to, for the first time since we've been here... But I fought hard with him and continued to make him give me what I asked him for...

Then I took him downstairs and worked with him a few more minutes... He's doing surprisingly well, considering all the turmoil going on around us.  

Something new; He does use his crate on his own now. : ) Whenever something happens that scares him and I'm not in the room he takes refugee in his crate now. Not under my desk. 

I hope everyone is doing well with their dogs. : )

Zim: Good luck to you and with the phobia of water... I just semi-watched a show on AP, _Good Dog U_ about a dog with a fear of baths... That must be so difficult, but I hope you can find something to do. The advice on the show was good, but it was just to help the dog overcome the fear of "baths" not -water- in general.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Deege congrats on art school. Best of luck for a successful career there. Sounds like Don is doing well considering all the commotion.

---------
Ok.. picture this. 

Two golden retrievers and a GSP zooming around the agility field playing fetch. Marge was standing just outside the fencing.

She did not react!!

I did not ask her to LAT because I had a feeling it'd put her over threshold, but she knew damn well that they were there and didn't bark or growl once. She did jump out a little when the GSP went by the first time, but I think she was just so surprised and didn't know what it was. So proud!  Her running-dog reactivity has gone way down, thank goodness.

Oh, if you guys remember the drama I had when my family's friends came over last time at the beginning of August.. well, they stopped by again this week, and I'm happy to say that there wasn't any bashing of my training methods this time. Marge growled at them when they came in (I was upstairs, my dad let them in) and growled at the man once when he came into the kitchen and walked near where I was giving her a treat, but was okay other than that. I don't know whether the prior situation was discussed when I wasn't there (my parents saw them a couple times after that) but they seemed less hostile about it and more curious/receptive to whatever I was doing. I didn't do much.. but, (and they said it themselves too) as soon as I came down from upstairs was when Marge decided to go over and sniff them.. my presence made her feel more comfortable and I guess affirmed for her that it was okay to go investigate. They said I had the "magic touch" 

We did have a couple negative incidents this week, when she flipped her lid and starting lunging/barking at a man in the park, and got charged by a lab on the beach. Thankfully he was leashed so he didn't actually make it up to her.

Oh, I also took her for a short walk last night. Haven't walked at night in a long time and she wasn't scared at all. We did have fireworks tonight though.. NO IDEA WHY.. but we stayed inside and she got through them better than I've ever seen before.

So much going on lately, and with college starting back up, it seems there just isn't enough time in the day anymore..


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

teeheehee...

i charged the water. 

you know...like you charge a clicker....


i got a cup of water and a bag of treats. i dipped my hand in the water. i flicked water on her and simultaniously gave her a treat

flick/treat flick/treat flick/treat flick/treat

so now we are "flicker training"

well..just f/t in regular sessions. gonna do this for a week straight. everyday at least 4 sessions of "charging the flicker" 

we'll see...then maybe do what KB said...im going to take this excruciatingly slow as not to freak her out


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That is awesome.

Be careful about charging.. water conducts electricity you know 

No but really, that sounds like it could go somewhere.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> teeheehee...
> 
> i charged the water.
> 
> ...



Wow, I was going to suggest that...but thought you had already tried it. 

It was the first thought that came in my head because that's how I got Wally to not be scared of the water hose and getting sprayed with water.

I hope it works. I think it has a high chance of doing so. Associating getting wet with getting rewarded. Works for everything else that uses classical conditioning, so why not this?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I have tried it before...

the difference this time is Im using less water and doing the conditioning routine far more frequently for a longer duration. 

when you have a dog that is very clicker savvy, sometimes you get too comfortable because the dog is usually sooooo good at assimilating new ideas...

I really really wish that..you know how they have little machines that you can use to monitor your heartrate and such while you exercise? I wish they had those but to use for measuring stress levels in a dog...would help a lot to hone training to be more precise..


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Yay! I think you're on the right path here. But I do have to say I have this image of Bolo, while you're flicking water at her, looking at you like, "This is weird. Why are you flicking water at me?"


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I really really wish that..you know how they have little machines that you can use to monitor your heartrate and such while you exercise? I wish they had those but to use for measuring stress levels in a dog...would help a lot to hone training to be more precise..


Oh yeah - that would be great!

I've come to the point where I'll actually put my hand on Wally's chest in situations just to get an idea of what his heart rate is. I know what his "normal" rate feels like so if it's faster, I really start watching his signals and whatnot to see if it's fear or just excitement.



ColoradoSooner said:


> Yay! I think you're on the right path here. But I do have to say I have this image of Bolo, while you're flicking water at her, looking at you like, "This is weird. Why are you flicking water at me?"


Haha - Wally kept giving me "evil eyes" when I was doing it. He was like, "Okay? Really? You're going to do this to me?"


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Yay! I think you're on the right path here. But I do have to say I have this image of Bolo, while you're flicking water at her, looking at you like, "This is weird. Why are you flicking water at me?"


kind of like this?


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> kind of like this?


Ha, Zim! Yes! Exactly!

As for Mayzie, I don't really have anything new to report but I did want to share something with this group. For the last couple of weeks, in the mornings, I'll sit down on the floor and Mayzie will come up, sit in front of me and lean into me, kind of like she's giving me her version of a hug. I put my arms around her and kiss her head or rub her chest and we just hang out like that for about 5 minutes or so (until I have to start getting ready for work). It never fails to get my day off to a good start. I am absolutely in love with this girl and it's moments like this that make every crazy, fearful quirk she has completely worth it. And I hope that because of the work we're doing together, one day she'll be able to go out in the world without fear and everyone else will be able to see what a remarkable spirit she is.

Thanks for listening to the mushiness. I think if I told something like this to other people, they might think, well, I was a little too wrapped up in my dog. And maybe I am. But Mayzie and I are just fine with that!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

That's awesome. I totally believe our dogs can be affectionate like this on purpose (i.e. not just a pack instinct or trying to get something from you). They are social creatures so it would follow that part of that is expressing how much one creature likes/dislikes another. 

Wally has a similar greeting. Every morning when I get him out of bed (which I'll be doing shortly) he'll come out of his crate and want to jump up on me, but he doesn't. He'll start making these funny sounds (kinda a cross between a whine, a growl, and a moan) and be all excited until I invite him to jump up. Then he will, "claw" me a little with his paws and stretch and lean on me. Then I'll rub behind his ears and he starts going crazy. He'll make these hah, hah, hah kind of sounds and get super playful. It's the most playful he usually is all day complete with play-bows 

If I just go in my room and "ignore" him, he'll lie down, staring into my room and make those sounds. When I come to him, he'll slap the floor with his front paws and go into the same thing as above. 

I have a feeling that this was the first greeting he ever tried with me back then, and the only thing I've changed was putting the jumping on invitation/cue. It helps that his breed is known for their frequency of standing on their back paws, which I thought was an...interesting...breed trait!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Aw, KB...that description made me smile. And how could you resist such unfettered cuteness?


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Aw, these sweet doggie-love stories have me smilin'! And it's especially nice that I have one of my own to share. 

Brenna is not a highly affectionate dog. I mean, she seems to like being petted now, but she is not normally one to seek out attention or ask to be petted. I supposed it's because she was never given that kind of affection to begin with. But she's starting to show more interest and coming up to hubby and me every now and then, just to see what's up, so to speak. And we always make sure to give her some love when she does that.

Well, today we started out our morning walk as usual. As long as we are in front of our yard or the first two houses down from us, we walk pretty slowly because Bren is reluctant to leave the comfort of home. So, I was just strolling along, letting her walk behind me and set the pace. Well, all of a sudden I felt this long nose come up under my free hand, then Brenna was pushing her whole head again my hand, as if begging to be petted. I immediately stopped walking and got down on her level to giver some good petting and scratching behind the ears. It just surprised me and touch me so much to have Brenna do this. It really is the "little" things that remind us how blessed we are!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

CocoaCream - That is SO fabulous! There's a moment you will always treasure.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Zim, good luck with the Flicker training. 
Cocoa, wow! Gotta love it when they seek you for affection. Ti still doesn't do that often.

Speaking of Tiberius, we had a GREAT morning. I had to be up early to be to town, and so Tiberius had to go out early. They are doing construction on my road, and the big dump trucks were parked almost directly across from my house. Tiberius could care less that they were there. He did his business and was ready to go right back inside. No panic attack


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hehe, *I* was the one who almost had a panic attack today, not Marge.. we almost got lost in the woods. I have a detailed account on my blog if you want to make fun of me. 

She did well, of course.. a big group of people even passed us and she didn't care too much. The rest of the time we were pretty much alone. 

Might go back this weekend, this time with the boyfriend so I don't freak out as bad if we make a wrong turn..


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I've discovered that liver treats are a cure for the fearful dog. We've used all sorts of treats, but I picked up some liver ones just to see if the dogs liked them. Jonas went passed several things he's terrified of on our walk without even noticing. He's crazy over these treats. The whole walk he was alternating between short bursts of walking and peeking back at me, or dancing circles in front of me looking at the bag. What a funny little enigma he is.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hee, hee about Jonas...that's so cute! Glad you found something that he likes enough to distract him! Brenna still won't take treats when we are on our walks. I tried again earlier this week with cooked chicken livers...to no avail. It makes me nervous when I think about taking her to obedience class. I am afraid she is going to have a rough time the first couple sessions, but I feel like there's nothing I can do about that except let her get used to it on her own. Hopefully the trainer will have some advice for us, though. 

Well, being the mean people that we are, last night hubby and I started ripping out the carpet in the living room to make way for our new wood laminate flooring. All the moving of furniture and making loud noises had Brenna quite concerned. She is reluctant to walk across the subflooring right now, but she did muster up the courage this morning since she really wanted to get back to the office, which is her favorite room. It's going to be a long weekend for her, I'm afraid!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I buy the hollywood stars liver and yogurt treats at walmart...Tiberius loves them.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Now the dog next door has taken to terrorizing Marge through under the fence. I think he's trying to dig our way into our yard.

I swear, this dog has caused so many problems for Marge.. I wish he'd go back to the country of his origin. Which is across the Atlantic Ocean.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt - Do you know your neighbors at all? Are they nice? I'm just wondering if they would allow you to toss treats over the fence anytime you guys are out. Do a little CC with the dog? Associating Marge's arrival with cheese might go a long way.

Of course, why your neighbors let their dog do this is beyond me. Ranger, our rat terrier, insists that he needs to eat the puppy next door. So I've been working on CC with him (and it's coming along well). If I get caught without any treats, I just pick him up and take him inside until they go back in their house. They (and their puppy) shouldn't have to suffer because my dog is a terrier-ist!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Honestly, my neighbors, while nice people, are clueless about their dog's behavior. Clueless. They can't read his body language at all, which is quite bad, considering he's both human and dog aggressive, highly territorial, and has bitten before. I heard them today.. they thought he was trying to play with her under the fence. Yeah..

He won't take treats from me. I've tried in other situations. Honestly, I don't think it's worth it, either.. there's no way he can ever get through (it's a 6ft tall privacy fence), Marge is almost never outside without some supervision, and I've put some storage bins that we have in our backyard as a blockade near where he was poking his paws under. It's only happened one or two times, so hopefully it doesn't become a problem.

I've tried to help, but I never want to cross that pivotal point where helping becomes nagging, so I've given them some information, they haven't done anything, and now really all I'm doing is keeping Marge as far away as possible. Not my dog, not my problem.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Now the dog next door has taken to terrorizing Marge through under the fence. I think he's trying to dig our way into our yard.


There's this little dog I'm reluctant to let Wally meet because he (the other dog) tries his best to squeeze between the fence to interact with Wally. I'm so afraid that one day he might succeed in squeezing through. 

If I let them sniff noses through the fence, it just makes the other dog want to come out even more.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

CocoaCream said:


> Hee, hee about Jonas...that's so cute! Glad you found something that he likes enough to distract him! Brenna still won't take treats when we are on our walks. I tried again earlier this week with cooked chicken livers...to no avail. It makes me nervous when I think about taking her to obedience class. I am afraid she is going to have a rough time the first couple sessions, but I feel like there's nothing I can do about that except let her get used to it on her own. Hopefully the trainer will have some advice for us, though.
> 
> Well, being the mean people that we are, last night hubby and I started ripping out the carpet in the living room to make way for our new wood laminate flooring. All the moving of furniture and making loud noises had Brenna quite concerned. She is reluctant to walk across the subflooring right now, but she did muster up the courage this morning since she really wanted to get back to the office, which is her favorite room. It's going to be a long weekend for her, I'm afraid!


I can't believe how crazy he is for these things. I mean, we passed his arch nemesis, a BABY STROLLER, and nothing. I want him to be able to pass these things on his own eventually without being upset and needing a distraction, but this was amazing. 
Jonas was a disaster at his first obedience training, but we quit that class after the trainer suggested we spray him in the face with a water bottle every time he barked. It was dumb of me to put him in one in the first place, especially a group, because his problems were much larger than sitting and staying.

The fence problem also reminds me of a similar fence problem my boyfriend and I have been debating. We don't know our next door neighbors at all. In fact, so many people are coming and going from that joint I don't even know who lives there. I do know there are often two kids there, both under 10 I would guess. Every morning I like to take my lap top and sit outside with the dogs so they can run around the yard. Every morning these kids are outside, and immediately come running for the fence. Unfortunately, that is the ONE side of the yard that is a four foot chain link. Not sure why, it was like that when we moved in. Every morning I shoo these kids and tell them not to touch the dogs, but I have to wonder, what right do I got to tell them to get away from the fence? They're still on their property. The only thing I can tell them is to not reach over into my yard. But if they just stand there, it results in me having to take the dogs in, because Jonas hates the world and Jack is a bit aggressive through a fence. They're ruining our good time, but at the same time, it's not their fault my dogs are screwy. 

I think we're going to build a privacy fence on that side, too, which makes this useless. If I saw dogs I didn't know in the yard next door, I would definitely not feel the need to hang over the fence or really even come near it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Big setback tonight..

took Marge to my grandma's, was playing with her in the backyard, and what goes off..

.. a round of really loud fireworks...

So she hid pretty much the remainder of our visit. She was always SO comfortable at my grandma's house, so I'm hoping that doesn't change now. I haven't seen her this frantic in a really long time.

Sigh. How's everyone else's weekend going?


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Poor Marge. That just sucks. Shouldn't the yahoos around you be out of firecrackers by now? What'd they do, take out stock in them?? Pfft.

We've had a nice relaxing weekend. Couple of trips to the park. Today didn't go that well, though. There were a lot of people having picnics along the lake and Poca just couldn't relax around them - tail tucked, wouldn't lay down and settle, spinning and looking in all directions at each sound, etc. So we just walked and sat for a bit by the lake and left. 

Took her to the vets to slop peanut butter in the parking lot again. I'm not sure I can ever get her comfortable outside that building, though, so I'm thinking about short-cutting things and just getting her inside and working with her there. The office is on a very busy road with lots of traffic & local business noise. There's too much to desensitize her to. I'll keep trying for a while, but if she doesn't show some improvement, I'm going to skip the outside training and get her inside for the work. She hated the outside of daycare at first, too, but we had no time and no choice but to quick march her in there the first couple of times. Now she can't wait to get in. I'm hoping it can work this way at the vets, esp if one of the vet techs brings in her dog to help - she's one of Poca's daycare buddies.

Oh, and we got her her first soccer ball. I'll post pics in the pictures forum this week. It was a classic study in approach-avoidance - play bowing and booing and then running like hell from the scary soccer ball the next instant. It was hysterical!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I really have no idea what the deal is with the fireworks this year is. Thankfully, they seem to be done in my neighborhood for the year (hope I'm not speaking too soon). My grandmother said they did them last night for awhile, and, as I had the displeasure of finding out, they had them again tonight over there, too.. 

I know you can't change people, especially not just because of a fearful dog, but I wish they knew and understood and actually CARED about what the implications of partaking in such a meaningless and illegal activity can be for other people. Every time I see Marge shake, I think to myself about PEOPLE who have noise phobias, too.. they are out there.. I knew one girl in highschool who had such a strong aversion to certain tones that I'd never seen before.

Sorry about the park, winnie.  Marge gets like that, too, when there are alot of people around. Come to think of it, I haven't even really taken her around such situations in a long time.. which is why I sometimes wonder if the "improvement" I'm seeing really isn't that much improvement at all.

I like the idea of just going in and bypassing the parking lot at the vet's office. Maybe things will work backwards.. if you can ever get her to the point where she tolerates being inside the vet's office, maybe the walk in will gradually become okay, too.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, more fireworks? I guess these are Labor Day fireworks? 

Wow.

That's too bad about Marge - seemed like she was coming around now too. And yeah, people don't think about stuff like that. They just think "oh letz shootz fireworkz!11!!!!1" and have their "fun".

LOL @ the running from the soccer ball. It's crazy when they do stuff like that. I always wonder what they are thinking?

"Oh, hey, a funny round black and white thing!"

"Smells okay, I guess...Maybe I'll play bow at it - see what it does."

"Okay...it's not moving...not making a sound...not doing anything..."

"Hmm...I don't know about this...why is it just sitting there?! WHAT DOES IT WANT? WHAT IS THIS THING?" 

*Runs away*


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

KB - that's exactly what she seemed to be thinking - lol! I think she thought it was ALIVE the way she was booing at it. Then when she found out it wasn't a threat she started tearing chunks out of the padded coating. Crazy girl.

MM - we try so hard not to react in front of Poca to fireworks when they go off around here but they still make me angry. I'll give them 2 nights a year to shoot them off - 4th & new years - but the rest of the year we call the police if it starts after 10:00 pm and goes on for more than a few minutes. There are two barns full of horses behind us who can't be thrilled at the noise, let alone all the dogs who are afraid of them. Yes, we're the cranky neighbors! But come on people, grow up! Fortunately we're in a small town area and if we call the police and can tell them approximately which house is shooting them off, they'll come and tell them to knock it off. Love the boys and girls in blue!

BTW thanks for the comment on getting Poca inside at the vets. It helps to have another opinion on that and I respect yours a lot.


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## Nazgul-Killer (Sep 7, 2009)

I'm currently working with my dog about his cowardice with a trainer - Apparently he thought he was the protector of the pack, and recently we made it clear he does not need to protect us.

He usually would've barked (And tried to bite) people who came through the door, whether we were there or not. 
Now - If we're not there he does that again, but if are there he stays silent and awaits to see what we do, anxiously and still quite fearful/aggressive, but with restraints.

I've only had ONE meeting with the trainer (Due to technical difficulties...), but in the past 2 weeks after we met with him, my dog has been amazingly well behaved. He actually licked the technician for the washing machine as he came through the door because I allowed him to, he now understands who's the boss in the house and I must say - He looks far more relaxed, he plays far better and seems far more energetic and less anxious. 

The training method could be a bit controversial, but the problem is that he is 3 years old, we have no choice.
We use a high-pressure air spray, makes a lot of noise but nothing more, it scares him to hell, we only had to use it twice and he learned pretty well what to do. To be honest - I was quite annoyed/skeptic of the teaching system, but seeing the results? I'm no longer skeptic.
The dog looks amazing now, he focuses much more on being a baby so my mom could nurture him than trying to kill everything that moves. 

In addition to that - We are also working on his aggression towards male dogs outside, especially German Shepperds (No idea why), for now we made no progress, but it is a slow process.
He already learned heel and stay beautifully, no fear or pain involved, correction when wrong and positive reinforcement when right, and he managed to learn both commands in a matter of 2 minutes. And I used to think my dog was dumb


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You say you had no choice but to use an aversive, but did you actually read up on fear aggression and how to treat it from a classical conditioning point of view? Are you familiar with desensitization and counterconditioning? Have you considered medication or herbal supplements?

This has nothing to do with being in charge of the pack or the dog wanting to be boss. For whatever reason, he is very afraid of the prospect of a stranger coming through your door and feels he needs to protect himself from them.

Using an aversive is dangerous in this situation because if the dog connects getting the punishment with seeing the person at the door, he could, in turn, highten his reaction and seriously attack someone.

Just because he is three years old doesn't mean you have to resort to such methods. My dog is two, has reacted towards people and dogs at certain times, and I am proud to say that my training is rooted only in positive reinforcement when it comes to behavior modification of this kind. You can do this kind of work WITHOUT "scaring your dog to hell" - believe me.


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## Nazgul-Killer (Sep 7, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> You say you had no choice but to use an aversive, but did you actually read up on fear aggression and how to treat it from a classical conditioning point of view? Are you familiar with desensitization and counterconditioning? Have you considered medication or herbal supplements?
> 
> This has nothing to do with being in charge of the pack or the dog wanting to be boss. For whatever reason, he is very afraid of the prospect of a stranger coming through your door and feels he needs to protect himself from them.
> 
> ...



Well, all dogs are different, and this is the trainer's method. I go with what works.

Like I said, I did not like the method and I was very skeptical until my dog looked so calm, I was amazed. 

Besides, I don't see him getting any more anxious, quite the opposite really, he's far more relaxed, more welcoming. He's still kind-of distrusting, but once a 'human' walks through the door I give him a piece of meat or a treat to give to my dog, I only had to use the spray twice, and now he's far more accepting to people and far less suspicious.

I have foolishly left out the fact that each person (Stranger) that walks through the door gives him a treat/piece of meat of some sort, and this has probably mislead you, I apologize for that. 

I can't say the suspicion is all gone, it isn't, but that's 3 years of bad training done by my 'favorite' brother. 
I wish you could see how my dog behaves now, you'd see why this isn't bad, he's so calm now... I think he took some catnip. 

I have no doubt that some dogs might just snap, but he just doesn't. Not only has this affected him inside the house, it has also affected him outside.
Sometimes, outside, he would randomly bark/charge at people, right now he does the opposite, either ignores them or sniffs them curiously, allowing them to pet him. 

And, I do not mean to offend you at all, and I am sorry if you will take offense to this, but I'd much rather hear the expert opinion of a dog trainer veteran (Dog training unit in the army in mandatory 7 year service, learned at a rather prestigious 'dog academy' for 10 years and been training for an additional 10 years) than someone else... I checked him before I hired him, I want what's best for my dog.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

How do you know the dog is "calm?" What's happening with his body language? What is his tail doing? What are his ears doing? What do his eyes look like? Is he forward or back in his stance when people come through the door? Where is he exactly in relation to the new humans and you?

To be able to tell if a dog is truly calm and untroubled by a situation, you have to read his body language. The reason MissMutt raised a concern about the noise aversion is that it can often quell a behavior temporarily but it doesn't fix the problem. Fixing the problem would be conditioning the dog so he is actually unafraid in these situations and therefore no longer a threat. Putting a bandaid on it and calling it fixed can lead to a situation in which the dog gets pushed over threshhold in future and that has only two possible results: bite or flight.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. Just someone who has lived with a fearful dog for 3 years and who has read a lot about it and worked with several trainers. Just saying that aversion training with a fearful dog can have unintended consequences - many studies have shown this. I'm with MM on this one.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Well, suit yourself then. I disagree with you on several accounts, but it is your dog, and you are perfectly entitled to deal with him as you like.

All dogs might be different, but learning theory is constant not only across dogs, but humans, rats, and any other creature. That is what I will continue to base my behavior modification methods in.

I will say that just because a trainer dealt with army dogs does not automatically make him equipped to deal with fearful ones. If you value his opinion, that is your choice, and I will not try to change your mind. But I do not think you'll find much help in this thread.


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## Nazgul-Killer (Sep 7, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> How do you know the dog is "calm?" What's happening with his body language? What is his tail doing? What are his ears doing? What do his eyes look like? Is he forward or back in his stance when people come through the door? Where is he exactly in relation to the new humans and you?


Body language? Well, his GENERAL body language is far -FAR- more relaxed (Usually he'd start barking immediately once someone even goes up the elevator), he ignores people that walk past the door usually, aside for a bit of growling which I don't say "No" to because he -IS- a form of a guard dog. 
He is less troubled about what goes on outside, far more involved in himself and his own 'pack', playing a lot more, distracts far less easily... Just... Looks far calmer.

His tail? That depends. His tail us curved upwards, when someone comes through the door it stays that way but he goes into "Red Alert" for a while. 
I tell the person: "No hands, let him sniff you out", I allow the dog to approach, and after sniffing him out, he 'clears' him for passage and follows him around for like 10 minutes until he gets used to him.

His ears are upright when someone comes through the door, intensively listening.

His eyes? I don't know how to describe it... But they are far calmer and far less aggressive. He does look intensively at the man, assesses him... But doesn't go insane as he used to.

Can you please repeat your last two questions in a different phrasing? I didn't really understand them.



> To be able to tell if a dog is truly calm and untroubled by a situation, you have to read his body language. The reason MissMutt raised a concern about the noise aversion is that it can often quell a behavior temporarily but it doesn't fix the problem. Fixing the problem would be conditioning the dog so he is actually unafraid in these situations and therefore no longer a threat. Putting a bandaid on it and calling it fixed can lead to a situation in which the dog gets pushed over threshhold in future and that has only two possible results: bite or flight.


Ah, that's just it.
I don't take it as a solution, as I've said before, I've only used it twice, but now every one who comes through the door gives him a treat or a piece of meat after being 'sniffed', trying to teach him that people aren't bad.



> I'm not claiming to be an expert. Just someone who has lived with a fearful dog for 3 years and who has read a lot about it and worked with several trainers. Just saying that aversion training with a fearful dog can have unintended consequences - many studies have shown this. I'm with MM on this one.


I think the main problem is that I didn't explain myself well enough, I don't take the spray as anything close to a solution, the solution is making him more and more used to humans, and it's becoming more and more successful by the day.

Just as an example:
The first time I used the spray - He went completely ballistic and had his muzzle on, I used the spray, he calmed down, I let him sniff the visitor, I removed the muzzle to let the visitor throw a treat to his feet and let him eat that, and put the muzzle up again.
After about 10 minutes where he seemed relaxed and not-tense, I removed the muzzle and gave him a treat. I brought him next to the visitor, guess what happened? He licked him. Literally. Again and again.
I gave him a treat again.

The second time I used the spray, he went again completely ballistic, but I just did a VERY short spray, and he stopped immediately, this time he was without the muzzle. 
Again, we did the whole procedure, and this time he got adjusted FAR quicker.

The third time - Someone came over, I didn't use the spray. I didn't put a muzzle, only kept him on a leash, let him eat a treat and after about 10 minutes, when I've calmed down, released him and he was fine.

The fourth time? He didn't go ballistic, nothing. He just learned quickly, greeted the man with some distrust but got accustomed to him.

I hope this clears it out for both of you, I apologize again if I was unclear.

EDIT: I definitely see your point, MM, but as far as I've seen, and knowing the dog for quite a while, it's not that he's an unbelievable coward afraid of everything, it's just that he was a little bit of a coward, and the vet (Dumb dumb) that my brother went to said "He's a coward dog, he'll be aggressive, nothing you can do" - So my brother enabled him until it turned into a big gigantic frenzy that now we are trying to fix.

I do not say my dog is not a coward, he kinda is, afraid of bottles and plastic bags, but not of people. Outside if he will see a bottle being thrown at him he will flee, but if it is a man/woman, he will usually ignore them. Up until now he sometimes got the 'Jingles' and tried to lunge himself at someone, but never afraid of them... So it's not that he's afraid of people, it's that he's been enabled for a VERY long time.

Hope that made the situation more clear.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Ah, that's just it.
> I don't take it as a solution, as I've said before, I've only used it twice, but now every one who comes through the door gives him a treat or a piece of meat after being 'sniffed', trying to teach him that people aren't bad.


If the aversive was used only twice, one of two things happened.

a) it was intense enough to scare the crap out of him such that he is afraid to react - shut down - when someone comes to the door
b) it didn't do much of anything, and the results you're seeing are the product of using treats.

I can't imagine that spraying an air horn twice is what has transformed him both in the house and on walks. It's very likely that you're doing something else that has helped him and the aversive is not needed.



> I do not say my dog is not a coward, he kinda is, afraid of bottles and plastic bags, but not of people. Outside if he will see a bottle being thrown at him he will flee, but if it is a man/woman, he will usually ignore them. Up until now he sometimes got the 'Jingles' and tried to lunge himself at someone, but never afraid of them... So it's not that he's afraid of people, it's that he's been enabled for a VERY long time.


Whether he is afraid of a piece of plastic or a man carrying a handgun the principles are the same, slowly desensitizing him to their presence. Lunging/reactivity/fear aggression IS an indicator of being afraid.. just because he isn't fleeing doesn't mean he isn't scared.


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## Nazgul-Killer (Sep 7, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> If the aversive was used only twice, one of two things happened.
> 
> a) it was intense enough to scare the crap out of him such that he is afraid to react - shut down - when someone comes to the door
> b) it didn't do much of anything, and the results you're seeing are the product of using treats.
> ...


Yes, I see your point, but the problem was that he got into such an insane frenzy that I couldn't do anything else, trying to get him to sniff the person, he tried to bite him.
Trying to get the person to stand still while he sniffs him, he tried to bite him.
Trying to get them to know each other gradually, even after 2 hours, he tried to bite him. The problem was so intense we had to revert to the extreme.

Also, I kept another detail out, I usually keep the spray at hand (In my pocket, its end pointing outwards), just in reach. Don't know if he knows that or not... But even if I remove the spray and don't pretend I have it, he behaves. 
I'm dazzled of how quickly he learned of the alternatives.

I'll give you the trainers words in a close-quote:
"By using the spray, and making him shut up, you make him realize that once he doesn't bark, nothing bad happens. By giving him treats, or by letting the other person give him treats, you teach him that being silent is good and will be rewarded" - Those were pretty much his words. 
I do realize this is not the solution, as we have plenty of more sessions with the trainer to get the dog completely well behaved. 

I can give you an example of how calm he is: 
My neighbor is not a dog person much, and my dog loathes him, any time he'd even go near the open door, my dog would snarl and his back hairs would go way up, he will start barking insanely, today he saw him, talking to my mother, what'd he do? Nothing. He looked curiously and decided it's not interesting enough, went back to his bone.

By the way, it's not an air horn exactly, it sounds like a VERY loud spray. 



> Whether he is afraid of a piece of plastic or a man carrying a handgun the principles are the same, slowly desensitizing him to their presence. Lunging/reactivity/fear aggression IS an indicator of being afraid.. just because he isn't fleeing doesn't mean he isn't scared.


Ah... Well... To be honest, I don't see him afraid anymore. He just ignores them. I think he feels more confident that I can protect him now...

I'll give you an example, if I do not allow someone to go through the door, I entice him and he goes back to his frenzy... I don't say the behavior is gone, I say that he gets used to people once he gets to know them.


I do see your points, but keep in mind that I am just a follower of the trainer's techniques, and I am insanely proud of my little black dog, the speed of how he learns... It amazes me.
For example - Heel, he learned that in half a second, same about Sit-stay... It really amazes me.

Like I said - The dog IS afraid, but I doubt it is from people as he usually did nothing outside, he just saw an odd looking man (Usually bald men for some reason) and started barking and lunging... It's gone now... I don't know why... I don't really ask questions because I see no side effects aside increased playfulness at home.


Thank you for your comments and your attempts of helping me, by the way. I do appreciate it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Nazgul-Killer said:


> I'll give you the trainers words in a close-quote:
> "By using the spray, and making him shut up, you make him realize that once he doesn't bark, nothing bad happens. By giving him treats, or by letting the other person give him treats, you teach him that being silent is good and will be rewarded" - Those were pretty much his words.



Almost like a quiet command with an environmental cue (the door opening/visitor coming in) meaning be quiet and maybe I'll get rewarded. If I bark, then I'll get the spray. I do agree that the treats are what's helping (or will be the biggest "weapon" in) reverse/lessen his distrust or instant "that's an enemy!" reaction.

Looks like the aversive presented a choice to the dog. Bark and get the spray. Be quiet and maybe you'll get rewarded with a treat or at the least praise and attention - both are better than the spray. Sounds like an operant choice and operant conditioning (he's choosing the reward/positive attention over the punishment of the spray)

It's pretty much managing the behavior, then working on what you REALLY want, imo.

While I didn't use that method, it's almost like with Wally - where I told him to sit (and wasn't "nice" about it) when he started getting frantic. Then when he did, he got rewarded. Now he'll come and sit near me on his own instead of running off somewhere, even if he's off leash.

So I didn't have to go to the aversive method so much, but I know what you were up against.

My only thing is - does the dog still get to alert bark (since he's a guardian breed) if he feels there's trouble and then you just take over from there (give your quiet command, another cue, etc)? If he does, or reacts in whatever ways he/his breed does when he feels wary, then it really put the choice in his head instead of cutting off his instincts/desire to act completely. 

I did read where you say he still will growl and you allow it, so I'm guessing he still has his instincts/alertness - just slowing down his reactions so that everything isn't an instant threat. I know how that goes too (except Wally will flee over fight).


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Not normally something to be happy about, but Tiberius killed his first stuffie!! I found an old stuffed animal going through boxes today and gave it to Tiberius. After about 5 minutes of being afraid of it (it looked like a six legged dog...I don't know) he carried it around. I came inside to cook dinner and he went to town on it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Dunixi said:


> Not normally something to be happy about, but Tiberius killed his first stuffie!! I found an old stuffed animal going through boxes today and gave it to Tiberius. After about 5 minutes of being afraid of it (it looked like a six legged dog...I don't know) he carried it around. I came inside to cook dinner and he went to town on it.


   

Marge killed a small blow-up ball today.. I was digging through boxes today, too, blew up the ball, she carried it around, caught it on her tooth, and suddenly there was no more air in it. Well, at least they both had a little bit of fun today!

(Though, I will say, yesterday and today have pretty much been dreadful overall - last night with the fireworks, and a MULTITUDE of things today.. numerous visitors to my house, all unexpected, pressure washing, and she didn't look so hot on her last walk of the day, either.. ugh. I'll feel better if we have a nice night at agility tomorrow.)


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

A bit of play is always good right MM? Grammy (my mom) wasn't so impressed with stuffie guts all over her yard, but Tiberius was very pleased with himself. Currently he is standing next to me begging potatoes...*sigh* I've created a monster when it comes to people food.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, poor Marge just can't catch a break, can she?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Dunixi said:


> A bit of play is always good right MM? Grammy (my mom) wasn't so impressed with stuffie guts all over her yard, but Tiberius was very pleased with himself. Currently he is standing next to me begging potatoes...*sigh* I've created a monster when it comes to people food.


It's okay, Marge is an absolute terror with human food, too. Just remember.. a high food drive is better than no food drive.. so even if the begging is annoying, it makes the training that much easier.



KBLover said:


> Wow, poor Marge just can't catch a break, can she?


KB, I'm afraid she cannot. I thought it was all over with and we were on our way to approaching our version of "normal" but then this weekend came and shook everything up.

First thing was this morning.. doorbell rings, it's my uncle giving my dad the pressure washer. They didn't actually come in the house (my dad went out to them) but it was a scramble because my uncle and aunt are not dog people.. if my dog was friendly, that'd be one thing, but since she is not, I didn't want there to be any problems.

Second thing was the pressure washing.. which she really didn't do TOO bad with, but all the commotion of moving stuff around the yard and making loud noises was alot for her. I would've brought her to my grandmother's house and hung out there, but since that's where the fireworks were yesterday I figured it wasn't the best idea.

Third we're all sitting down at the table having pancakes around 2 PM (yes, I guess it was a disgustingly late breakfast lol) and the same guy who shook me up about my training methods (the family friend) a couple months ago comes walking in my backyard gate unannounced... so then Marge sees he's there (she was inside but can see into the yard based on where she was.. lets out these HUGE growls and gets all her hackles up. I brought her out to them and she was okay, she demonstrated her agility skills on the weave poles.. they didn't try to pet her or anything.. but then she thought she saw someone else go by underneath the gate (don't ask me how, and no one was there) and went RUNNING over like she was ready to charge.. ugh.. 

THEN we walked at about 6:30 (the third walk of the day) and she decided she was afraid of anyone and anything that went by. She didn't actually shut down but she was NOT happy.

It was just way too much for one day.. sorry for the rant..

I popped her 3mg of melatonin this afternoon, but honestly, I really only think that stuff is good for thunderstorms. 

It just stinks because I felt like we had no safe haven at all today.. when the house gets crazy, I usually walk her, but she's been so iffy about walking lately. Or, I'd take her to my grandmother's, but based on last night, I didn't think it was a good idea.. and to think, it was MY idea to bring her there last night.. grr. 

Today was one of those days that I wish I had a Xanax prescription for her..


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Awww...Poor Marge had it rough today alright. Hopefully tomorrow is better MM.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, what a day for you and Marge, MM 

Sometimes I wonder about what they see. I've seen Wally perk up and look into the darkness. I mean, I know dogs see far better at night than humans (especially a 4-eyed one like me) but still... Then we I let him "show" me - we get there and he's looking around like he lost sight of whatever it was. Then he looks at ME like "hey did you see where it went?" And I'm thinking "I didn't even see it the first time."

One night, he growled and had his tail standing straight up. No idea what he was growling at. If there was something there, it was perfectly quiet. I let him go investigate and it was much ado about nothing it seems. So when you mention Marge charging at what seemed like and was nothing, I know what you mean. It's FREAKY.

And I totally HATE when they go back into coward mode for whatever reason. Wally was like that yesterday. Everything spooked him. The poop bag fell off the table and barely made a sound. He RAN INTO THE WALL trying to get away from it. I was pissed. Made him SIT and I threw the bag at him and around him for 10 minutes, telling him to stay before each time. Probably not the "best" way, but he didn't move and got the **** over it. I randomly dropped it and he didn't run, he just sniffed it like he's supposed to (investigate/touch not run).

Then later on, something spooked him and he was literally running in place on the kitchen floor because he tried to get away from God knows what. I made him walk back and forth on the floor like he had some freaking sense for 30 minutes. I kid not. He knows what he's supposed to do when he's scared. Running into walls is not it. I know he probably can't help it - but I do him no favors by just letting him act recklessly. 

Finally, he acted like he had some sense and was fine and normal the rest of the day. No idea what caused the sudden reversion to back like 10 months ago.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

No new updates, but some laughs for the thread. Our neighbors invited us over and asked us to bring our dogs so their dog (who is also named Jack. Very confusing for him when I'm yelling at Jack to come in) could have someone to run around with, since their son moved out and took his dog with him. We came by with Smalls and Jack, and they wanted to know why Jonas wasn't with us. I spent a good hour explaining that Jonas is a fearful dog, and what he's scared of and why, and how we have to treat him carefully and see a trainer for basically dog therapy. Good times, we went home.

Now, I yell nonsense at my dogs. Empty threats, and usually to make my boyfriend laugh. We let the dogs out later on and Jonas was going bonkers by the fence separating their yard from ours. I called him in, he didn't come, so I yelled "JONAS, I'M GOING TO PUT YOU IN THE DRYER!" Two seconds later I hear laughter from the other side of the fence and the wife peeked her head over and said "Is that apart of his therapy?"


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Lmao, that's great


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I called him in, he didn't come, so I yelled "JONAS, I'M GOING TO PUT YOU IN THE DRYER!"


ROFL

LOL

*coughs*

LOL

Best one-liner of the thread?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I have a wide range of threats for the dogs. I often tell Smalls we have to get home so I can beat her with the sack of quarters. And more as a threat to my boyfriend I tell Jack I'm going to shave him naked and then who would love him? I hope one day research doesn't prove that they can in fact understand every thing we say. 

We also heard from our neighbors that the kids I complain about next door threw rocks at their dog. Their son went over and told the parents, so I'm hoping that issue was resolved, because if I catch one of them throwing ANYTHING at the dogs, I will come right over that fence.


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## Nazgul-Killer (Sep 7, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Almost like a quiet command with an environmental cue (the door opening/visitor coming in) meaning be quiet and maybe I'll get rewarded. If I bark, then I'll get the spray. I do agree that the treats are what's helping (or will be the biggest "weapon" in) reverse/lessen his distrust or instant "that's an enemy!" reaction.
> 
> Looks like the aversive presented a choice to the dog. Bark and get the spray. Be quiet and maybe you'll get rewarded with a treat or at the least praise and attention - both are better than the spray. Sounds like an operant choice and operant conditioning (he's choosing the reward/positive attention over the punishment of the spray)
> 
> ...



Thank you for your support.

But yes, he does revert to his usual behavior unless me or any other of my family members is/are near the door.
He growls if someone gets too close, but he'd usually start barking frantically if someone got too close.
The other day, someone tried to enter my house (No idea who that was), the dog started barking and 'guarding', I approached and he stopped. Once I left he looked at me, as if asking me and I started enticing him, letting him know it is okay to bark when I'm not there.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

We had a step back today too..*sigh* I was heading for Mom's with Tiberius in the back of the car. Two big potato trucks went by, and of course the back windows were down part way for him. Now we have done this same scenario several times with no problems since he came home in March. Well today Tiberius leapt from the back seat into my lap while I'm doing 60 down the road...it was almost bad.
He had this panic attack after standing calmly in my driveway while heavy machinery went by..sometimes my dog confuses me.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Wow! Sounds like I've missed some interesting discussion over the last few days! Sorry I've been AWOL, but DH and I have spent most of the past week ripping up our old nasty carpet and laying wood laminate flooring in a large part of the house. It was a long process, and we had to have Brenna and the cats confined to separate parts of the house during much of the work. 

And now I have to work to get Brenna completely over her new fear of the floor. I fully expected her to be a little unsure of it at first, but I was not thinking of the possibility of her fears becoming a reality... See, the first time she stepped onto the floor, she slipped and almost fell, then panicked and tried to get off it as fast as should could, resulting in more slipping and sliding. I was surprised because she has no problem on our linoleum, but apparently the laminate is just a little more slick. I think that combined with her desire to get across the new stuff as quickly as possible caused the problem. If she is calm and walks normally, she is fine and has no trouble. It's just when she overthinks the situation, particularly when leaving a carpeted area or turning a sharp corner, that we have issues. I'm working with walking her all around the house on leash with a handful of hotdog bits, turning corners, sitting, then walking again...anything to get her comfortable and confident that she doesn't have to fear the floor. But, oh, I hope this is something she can overcome rather quickly. 'Cause the floor is here to stay, and if she wants to get from one side of the house to the other, she has to cross it!

On another note, I went to the first session of obedience class last night! It was very encouraging to know that we've gotten a little head start since Brenna already knows what the clicker means (alot of people were like, "Huh? What's a clicker?") and knows "sit" "lay down" and "touch." Now, of course, she only is reliably trained to do those things in the house, so I don't expect her to get it in a group class right away...but at least we have somewhere to begin. It was also good to meat the trainer and know that she is on the same page I am...very much a proponent of positive reinforcement and learning to read your dog. She has alot of experience training dogs for shows and agility, too, possibly rally-o, too, though I'm not sure. She gave us the option of testing for CGC at the end of the course, but I'm not sure whether Brenna will be ready for that or not. I'd love to be able to accomplish that with her...but it will take alot of discipline from me, and alot of courage from her. I don't know...we'll see. Maybe she will surprise me, right?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CocoaCream said:


> I think that combined with her desire to get across the new stuff as quickly as possible caused the problem. If she is calm and walks normally, she is fine and has no trouble. It's just when she overthinks the situation, particularly when leaving a carpeted area or turning a sharp corner, that we have issues. I'm working with walking her all around the house on leash with a handful of hotdog bits, turning corners, sitting, then walking again...anything to get her comfortable and confident that she doesn't have to fear the floor. But, oh, I hope this is something she can overcome rather quickly. 'Cause the floor is here to stay, and if she wants to get from one side of the house to the other, she has to cross it!


I know the feeling. Wally is the same way - he'll slip and slide if he tries to move too fast and it doesn't help that homes have sudden "terrain" changes (carpet to tile, etc) with such dramatically different properties (carpet gives good footing and traction while tile can be like walking on ice, especially for creatures not designed to walk on slick surfaces). 

I did the same sort of thing with Wally. Had to teach him that he can walk slowly and a) nothing will eat him, b) it keeps him on even footing (which dogs seems to crave) and c) it gets him rewarded.

And I also made him cross it to get what he wants. I do that with a lot of his fears. Set him up so he has to confront it while I wait on the other side with a nice reward. He wants the reward, he has to cross/pass whatever and come get it like a big dog (which means no panicked crossing, he can be wary and look at whatever, but he has to come with some semblance of control). 

I think you'll get Brenna over it pretty quickly. After all, like you said, the floor ain't going anywhere. She's just going to have to adapt and adjust. The world doesn't stop, and even fearful dogs have to adapt 



CocoaCream said:


> On another note, I went to the first session of obedience class last night! It was very encouraging to know that we've gotten a little head start since Brenna already knows what the clicker means (alot of people were like, "Huh? What's a clicker?") and knows "sit" "lay down" and "touch." Now, of course, she only is reliably trained to do those things in the house, so I don't expect her to get it in a group class right away...but at least we have somewhere to begin. It was also good to meat the trainer and know that she is on the same page I am...very much a proponent of positive reinforcement and learning to read your dog. She has alot of experience training dogs for shows and agility, too, possibly rally-o, too, though I'm not sure. She gave us the option of testing for CGC at the end of the course, but I'm not sure whether Brenna will be ready for that or not. I'd love to be able to accomplish that with her...but it will take alot of discipline from me, and alot of courage from her. I don't know...we'll see. Maybe she will surprise me, right?



Yeah, she'll have a head start in class for sure. Not only does she know the method but she already knows the behaviors and the sound ("sit" "touch", etc) connected to them. Once she understands that things didn't change just because of a new place, I bet she'll be a star 

Yep, you never know. She just might surprise you 

Had a positive walk (just got back in from it actually).

The grounds crews were out again mowing down the community grass and such. Wally didn't care. He kinda looked at the activity, but kept walking happily beside me. 

I even had him stay so I could go throw out his poop bag (the grounds crews were cutting the grass so I didn't want to walk him over there in case they didn't see him, etc). He stayed put, wasn't scared, such a good job. I guess all that stay-at-distance training paid off after all. 

Then there was a funny moment, there were some black butterfiles just sitting on the curb (odd - never saw that before) and they flew around Wally - and he was trying to get them! When they landed, he tried to sniff them, and once he did and it flew away, making him snort! He wanted to get that one pretty bad after that LOL 

He kept chasing them around and when they flew up he stood on his back paws trying to get him. He chased them up and down the sidewalk (glad no one was coming so he could have his fun until they flew over to a bush.

Then right near the gate, one of the groundskeepers surprised us because he was walking right up along our fence. Wally was startled, but he just curved around him and wasn't afraid. He was sniffing around where he was though, heh.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Well, apparently my method of walking Brenna around the house with treats worked because the rest of the day she was just fine with walking across the new floor. I didn't expect it to work so quickly! She hesitated about coming our of her crate for a moment this morning, but did not panic. It's turning corners that she really had trouble with, so we have rugs out for her in the two spots where she has to make a sharp turn. Hopefully they won't have to be there much longer. We'll probably get a couple of nice looking runners anyway, so that will help in the long term. 

An added bonus is that at the same time I was working on getting her beyond her fear of the floor, we were also doing loose-leash work. And the two walks we've taken since then have been a dream. She has not pulled at all or tried to take the full length of her leash. And if she acts like she wants to, I just stop for a moment or make a quick circle with her and we are back to a nice pace with her by my side. Will it last? I intend to make it so! 

Well, now I must go do some more training before I get to the housework for the day. Hope you all have a great, stress-free day with your doggies!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Well, Marge has been very edgy around people today. 

She saw a man walking on the other side of the street (black man in cap) and her hackles all went up and she did that hard stare.. she didn't bark/growl but I think she would have if he was closer. I feel like her mindset is changing from "run before he comes to me" to "get to him before he gets to you".. and I don't like it.

I'm honestly having doubts about what to do with her on this issue. When I play LAT I feel like I don't see a huge difference and it usually just makes her more scared because her eyes are going in every which direction. I tried it today in the field, a man was sitting about 100-150 ft away waiting for the bus on the adjacent road and she kept eyeing him.. I guess I need to give it more time but I don't know, it's just not sticking with me.

Then on the way home a man was approaching us on the sidewalk, walking by... I got to my driveway before he passed it, sat her down and gave her treats. Sometimes I feel like stuff like this makes it worse, like I'm being TOO proactive.. but I'm just so afraid of her repeating the reactive behavior and I confess I just really don't want to see it.

Trips to Petsmart and such help with this kind of thing - there are no surprises for Marge, the men are just in the store and sometime they're nice and give treats. End of interaction. I would go today but due to this diarrhea issue we're having I don't think it's wise to take her too far.

I have one male friend who might be willing to help, I think I'm going to make a separate thread about it because I really don't want to screw it up.. it'd be certainly nice to add someone to the list of men that Marge likes.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I'm honestly having doubts about what to do with her on this issue. When I play LAT I feel like I don't see a huge difference and it usually just makes her more scared because her eyes are going in every which direction. I tried it today in the field, a man was sitting about 100-150 ft away waiting for the bus on the adjacent road and she kept eyeing him.. I guess I need to give it more time but I don't know, it's just not sticking with me.


Obviously, I wasn't there, so I don't know her exactly posture, but looking at whatever it is - that's part of it. 

Like if Wally is wary of something, he looks at it. I click and reward him. He's going to look at it again (for multiple reasons). Another click/reward. Eventually, he's going to look at me. Click/Jackpot. 

Now is he going to be "fine" with whatever he looked at quickly? Maybe, maybe not (and, realistically, probably not, I've been playing LAT ever since I got my copy of CU and that's been months, literally). The first lesson he learns is look to me when you're wary. The second lesson is whatever you were looking at predicts good instead of bad. I don't think those lessons learn at the same rate, and I don't think they have to, imo.

Of course, I would be clueless with Marge. Pushing her doesn't work, and that's my #1 strategy with Wally. And if Look-At-That doesn't work, and I can't give her commands (teach her what to do when she's feeling afraid), I'm not sure what I'd do.

Being the stubborn person that I am, I'd probably just keep doing LAT until she gets the idea. Ask Wally how often I'll do something over and over until he gets it even when he doesn't seem to be wanting to get it


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I need some more help guys...

Donatello is petrified of bugs. 

Yes, I said that right. _BUGS_. 

Of all the things this dog _isn't_ afraid of anymore, like ceilings creaking and doors slamming, he's terrified of bugs!!

I've always noticed he's had a dislike for bugs... Like Gnats (sp) and small bugs he'd always watch and follow and try to snap at... But bigger bugs like flies and the big mosquitos terrify him to death! 

The other day the house was open, the "air being ventilated" as I like to call it. So naturally a few bugs found their way inside and to my room. Donatello started freaking out... He jumped down from the bed, started slinking around the room in a panic, I managed to call him back to the bed and he's _trembling_. (Something he hasn't done in a long time now.) He just wouldn't stop, and he kept trying to pull out of my arms every time the _fly_ came near...

It's really pathetic when you think about it... A dog being petrified of a -fly-.

Finally, when he wouldn't calm down, I sent him to his crate and killed the fly. Not ten minutes later he came out and so did a big mosquito, so he high-tailed it back to his crate leaving me to kill the bug.

Ironically, I hate bugs, I will scream and flail my arms like a sissy in a heart-beat if I think a moth is going to bat me in the face... So it's not a big surprise my dog is scared of bugs too...

This is another situation I don't know how to approach.

He gets so scared, he won't listen to me, he tries to hide, and he would certainly not take a treat, regardless of the tasty-value. (I've tried.)

Any ideas on how to address this?


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## lexilu (Jun 26, 2008)

Poor Donatello -are you sure it's the bugs he's afraid of and not the annoying sounds they make. Both mosquitos and flys make that same irritating sound.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Either way, Lexilu, whether it be the sound or the actual bug darting at him he's terrified and I don't know how to fix this one...


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## lexilu (Jun 26, 2008)

Deege - you've done such a great job with him on all his fears - how often is he exposed to bugs? Is it just flying bugs or even the creepy crawlies? how bout getting some toy bugs (i know - gross) - like halloween spiders and such and just expose him- make the sounds yourself and show him it's no big deal. Or keep your windows shut. LOL. 

...and speaking of Halloween - in my neck of the woods it's as bad as the fourth of july. All the kids, lights and decorations scare the pants off Lexi. My neighbor had her dog in costume - Lexi saw him and literally lay on the ground screaming. I feel so badly for our little chickens.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Man, I'm anxious about Halloween ALREADY. We live in kid central. High school across and down the road a little bit, and a daycare right across the street. Jack has recently become extremely reactive (that's a whole different story.) and Jonas is not a fan of kids. Essentially, I don't want anyone coming up to our door at all. I want to put a sign in the yard that says something to the effect of "No trick-or-treaters." but my boyfriend is causing a huge stink about it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Being scared of a fly is no more pathetic than being afraid of a bag. At least the fly is a living thing. 

Anyway, not sure what you CAN do. You can't control the fly and make him (her? it?) stay in one spot while you work with Donny. And if he's that terrified to where he won't work with you at all, that really limits the options.

Maybe you could catch one in a jar or something and "control" the fly that way. Maybe you could put the jar at a distance to where Donny isn't freaking and then you can start working with him. 

Wally hates flies, but not in a fear why, but in a "get the F away from me before I eat you" way. I think with him it's the crazy movements and the sound that gets him. It probably sounds like someone humming REALLY LOUD and they won't stop and eventually it just gets on his nerves.


As far as Halloween, I dreaded it last year, but it was much ado about nothing (not much activity here). Actually, I'm glad - not because I think Wally will be particularly scared (he managed Christmas just fine with all the flickering lights and houses that have these strange things all over them suddenly) but because I think he'll be harassing all the kids because they'll all smell like food and candy and carrying around all those scents from people and places.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

I've read part of this thread..I will have to read more tomorrow! 

One night I got up, used the bathroom and went back to bed. Later that night, Bella is cowering and shaking next to me with this wild-eyed look in her eyes. I couldn't figure out what the h*ll set it off! I turned on all the lights, looked around the apt...nothing. Went back to bed. About 10 minutes later she is back trying to hide behind my head, "WTH?". I told her to knock it off and go back to sleep. Easy for me to SAY. I was awake. Then I heard the toilet run for a few seconds, and she was shaking and clammering all over me again! She was scared of the sound of the toilet! I was not happy, "Jeeeze Bella!!!!" I took her in the bathroom, flushed the toilet again so she knew where it was coming from and I swear she looked at me like "oh". She's not a skittish dog...usually nothing phases her, but something about the evil toilet got to her! I didn't even have chinese food that night! 

She does get annoyed with bugs in the house after a few times I jumped up with a rolled up magazine...but I think she was reacting to my annoyance...or _fear_ if it happens to be a spider!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Well, today Marge lunged/jumped at someone and this time I guess I can say I wasn't sure exactly what her intent was.  I feel like she's changed.. that her first instinct isn't always to just run away anymore, and that in certain situations she'd prefer to tackle things head on. I really don't want to talk about it because I'm still in disbelief that it happened (though I'm pretty sure why it did) but now I pretty much know I can't remain idle with her the way I have been. I'd like to talk to my vet about meds/bloodwork in the near future and if I need to I guess I'm prepared to find a behaviorist.. I just don't know how much a behaviorist would help in a house largely full of people who don't see a need for it or don't want to deal with the particulars of behavior modification.

I feel like something I'm doing is making it worse, I really do. Her fear/reactivity/aggression/whatever is worse with me. Yet she's also more social when I'm with her. It's a paradox. My boyfriend thinks she's guarding me, but I'm really not so sure about that. He also says that he doesn't think she's changed a whole lot, but is just placed in more situations than she was before.

He and I took her on a walk tonight.. I let him hold the leash.. didn't have treats or anything on me.. she got scared from shadows and passed a man just afterwards.. but she was fine the rest of the time.. there were even distant fireworks. 

I don't know if I'm too proactive with her.. if I fear her reacting TOO much that it sets the wrong mood for our walks. Yet I feel like if I'm too lose, something's going to come along and shake it all up.

All I know is that if it gets to the point where she shows clear intent to harm someone, regardless of why, I'm going to have a tremendous problem on my hands, one that I'm not even sure we can recover from.



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Man, I'm anxious about Halloween ALREADY. We live in kid central. High school across and down the road a little bit, and a daycare right across the street. Jack has recently become extremely reactive (that's a whole different story.) and Jonas is not a fan of kids. Essentially, I don't want anyone coming up to our door at all. I want to put a sign in the yard that says something to the effect of "No trick-or-treaters." but my boyfriend is causing a huge stink about it.


Ugh. Almost forgot about Halloween. And it's on a Saturday, isn't it?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Ugh. Almost forgot about Halloween. And it's on a Saturday, isn't it?


Not to ignore your entire post, but yes, not only is it Halloween, but Halloween on a WEEKEND. Jonas + kids = bad scene. Jonas + kids in costumes screaming at the door? Ugh. There is absolutely no where I can take the dogs, either. My parents have a busy neighborhood with trick-or-treaters, and my boyfriend's parent's make their yard/house a haunted house. We can't exactly hide in our house, as our front room has huge bay windows, so I'd like to put up a simple sign to at least cut out most of the traffic. My boyfriend has a problem with this somehow, but doesn't have a reason. He also does nothing to help with the dogs, so I don't see why he gets an opinion on this at all.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I feel like she's changed.. that her first instinct isn't always to just run away anymore, and that in certain situations she'd prefer to tackle things head on.


Can dogs change their defense drive actions? It sounds like Marge has gone from flight to fight as her preferred tactic? I know Wally's done that with other dogs. Before, he'd cower and get all tucked up into a tight sit. Now he'll stand his ground with the dog and be like "don't move until I sniff you and see what you're about". If I start petting/talking to the dog, he'll ease up and start sniffing the dog all over and just about molesting the dog. I get a little between them too (calming signal as well). Is there some kind of signal you might could give Marge with body language that could have a similar effect on her?

It could be guarding/protective. I see that change in Wally now. If we're sitting somewhere and a dog is around and getting closer, he'll stand up and start growling. I have to tell him to sit to get him quieted down and temper that energy some. It's like he's gone from "That dog might hurt me" to "That dog might hurt him (meaning me)".




MissMutt said:


> Yet she's also more social when I'm with her. It's a paradox. My boyfriend thinks she's guarding me, but I'm really not so sure about that. He also says that he doesn't think she's changed a whole lot, but is just placed in more situations than she was before.


She could be more social, but also it could be more investigating as well. I often wonder where the line between curiosity and "let me see what's up with that" clicks in with dogs. Like when Wally takes to sniffing the air when people walk by. I'm think it's less simple curiosity as it is investigating the scent and seeing what it might mean. 

Unless they have food. Then it's all about the food. 



MissMutt said:


> I don't know if I'm too proactive with her.. if I fear her reacting TOO much that it sets the wrong mood for our walks. Yet I feel like if I'm too lose, something's going to come along and shake it all up.


Always a possibility. I know the mantra is be proactive and not reactive, but sometimes I think we can too quickly judge or anticipate just like we see our fearful dogs do. Personally, I've stopped trying to preempt Wally's reactions. It's a lost cause, I don't see what he sees as fast. I certainly can't hear we he does at distance. I can't pick up the scents. I can't feel the tension building in him. So I have to read signals and react to them in the moment, moving in flow with the situation as it unfolds. Even that's a challenge because of the subtlety of dog language and how fast the signals can flash, but at least I can see it. If see nose licking by the other dog, I know what he's trying to communicate and I can direct Wally accordingly. 

After all, I've been "preaching" slow down and read the situation to him. It's only fair if I take my own advice.

Not to mention that if you are a bit on edge, I wouldn't be surprised if Marge can pick up on that. They say dogs can read us very well. I've read that they can hear the pace of our heartbeats and our breathing. They can hear our footsteps and know if our pace is different. Probably can even detect subtle changes in leash tension (I know Wally can, it's something I've used to my advantage in training, and no I don't pop him or whatever, but we "talk" via the leash to each other). 

I know if I look vigilant on our walks, Wally will suddenly be looking around more, focusing his gaze in directions, ears out listening for sounds. His head whips around, probably catching faint sounds. But if I move at a slightly fast pace with a "floppy" body he's happy and "smiling" and tail all curled up and walking with a bounce and a hop. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Marge is just as aware of you. 




MissMutt said:


> All I know is that if it gets to the point where she shows clear intent to harm someone, regardless of why, I'm going to have a tremendous problem on my hands, one that I'm not even sure we can recover from.


Hopefully, it won't come to that. I don't think it will. I agree a bit with your boyfriend that if there's more situations (things changed, more activity than usual, etc) then it could be an unsettling time right now. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the guarding aspect either. 

But I think you'll be able to work through it, either just between you and Marge or with help from outside professionals.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Can dogs change their defense drive actions? It sounds like Marge has gone from flight to fight as her preferred tactic?


She hasn't gone to it in all scenarios. In this one, she was leashed and someone (male, of course) entered the house. I was trying to get outside such that she could see this person out there, but it didn't exactly work out that way. So leashed+small space, I guess, led her to become defensive. She saw this person for a few seconds after this incident and was okay (outside of my house), so I guess that's good.



> Is there some kind of signal you might could give Marge with body language that could have a similar effect on her?


I'm not really sure. I guess it's possible, based on how good she is with my boyfriend. Perhaps her seeing us laying on the couch or hugging or whatever lets her know that there's no threat. Don't know how that can be reproduced with other people though.



> She could be more social, but also it could be more investigating as well. I often wonder where the line between curiosity and "let me see what's up with that" clicks in with dogs. Like when Wally takes to sniffing the air when people walk by. I'm think it's less simple curiosity as it is investigating the scent and seeing what it might mean.


Hmm. I can see what you mean, but it's usually not just sniffing with Marge. It's the difference between choosing not to approach someone at all, or going up to someone very interested (and if it's a woman, usually happily). I guess this could be me involuntarily putting pressure on her, like "Sam comes, now I better go sniff this person to see what they're all about for her sake." So I can see your point.



> Not to mention that if you are a bit on edge, I wouldn't be surprised if Marge can pick up on that. They say dogs can read us very well. I've read that they can hear the pace of our heartbeats and our breathing. They can hear our footsteps and know if our pace is different. Probably can even detect subtle changes in leash tension (I know Wally can, it's something I've used to my advantage in training, and no I don't pop him or whatever, but we "talk" via the leash to each other).


Yeah.. I'm trying to change this. I guess I just don't know how far I should push her. For example, we were walking down a street today that we haven't been on in awhile. There's lots of commotion from cars and stuff so I worry less about little noises that we'd hear on a deserted street. I was going to turn down a side street with her, but I saw the paper boy coming (who I know). Figuring it'd be bad if a male teenager with a big yellow bag full of papers directed his attention towards us, it wouldn't be good. So I turned around.

I


> know if I look vigilant on our walks, Wally will suddenly be looking around more, focusing his gaze in directions, ears out listening for sounds.


I've tested this in a couple of scenarios, and it's true, she does follow my gaze.

I think the next thing I need to do is get her a crate.. as long as I'm there to see that NO ONE bothers her while she's in it, I think it could be advantageous.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

Miss Mutt,
My husband has a much harder time with Cherokee than I do. He starts his walks worrying about what they might come upon when they get to the sidewalk. I really think his anticipation of trouble starts things up on a tense note. 

We have a group of kids that play on a dead end street. I take Cherokee right through their play, and sometimes stop and let the kids say hello, all the while instructing them on how to say hi to the scaredy dog and feeding Cherokee yummies. He is actually starting to like meeting these kids.

Now, my husband, I find out, immediately turns around and goes back the other way when he see those kids. He expects Cherokee to be reactive and does not feel confident that he can manage Cherokee in these situations. 

I also have worked with Cherokee on getting past houses where he has been rushed by mean-sounding dogs. It used to be that once a dog had scared him, he would do everything in his power not to have to walk past those houses. I worked on putting him in heel and feeding him continuously while we passed. I realize now, since he is no longer afraid, he still puts himself in a heel next to me and nudges my hand looking for treats when we pass these houses. That might be telling me he still feels tension when passing these houses, or, he just wishes I would feed him.

Now, my husband still crosses the street to pass these houses. He is afraid to have Cherokee get scared. He anticipates trouble where there is none.

So, I don't know exactly what I am trying to say here. Maybe it is that, I am showing Cherokee that we can face these scary things together and we can work it out. Where, my husband is so afraid of Cherokee being branded a bad dog, he continues to avoid these situations and, in my opinion, makes him more nervous and likely to react.

The moral of the story is, my husband tends to be an anxious personality type, which I think is a hard thing when trying to help an anxious dog. I am a problem solver, go-getter type, so I tend to see the progress rather than worry about the set-backs. I do think Cherokee reads that about us.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MegaMuttMom said:


> Now, my husband, I find out, immediately turns around and goes back the other way when he see those kids. He expects Cherokee to be reactive and does not feel confident that he can manage Cherokee in these situations.


Exactly like I used to feel with Wally. At first, I'd avoid what looks like situations he reacted/cowered in. 

Now, I go into them, actually seek them out and use them as teaching moments as well as showing him we can face it.



MegaMuttMom said:


> So, I don't know exactly what I am trying to say here. Maybe it is that, I am showing Cherokee that we can face these scary things together and we can work it out. Where, my husband is so afraid of Cherokee being branded a bad dog, he continues to avoid these situations and, in my opinion, makes him more nervous and likely to react.


Past and present me with Wally in a paragraph.

Used to be worried about bad reactions, not only from other people thinking he was one of "those" dogs, but mostly from setting him back and reinforcing the thoughts he has about whatever being scary.

Now, we go into those situations and we "survive" them. Wasn't easy at first, but his confidence was building and now he's much less reactive in those situations.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, I'm going to try really hard not to avoid situations anymore, at least to some degree. 

The difference between men and women with Marge is unbelievable... just now we had another visitor to our house, an elderly woman that I don't think Marge has ever met before.. she went over and sniffed like crazy, wagged her tail..


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> Yeah, I'm going to try really hard not to avoid situations anymore, at least to some degree.
> 
> The difference between men and women with Marge is unbelievable... just now we had another visitor to our house, an elderly woman that I don't think Marge has ever met before.. she went over and sniffed like crazy, wagged her tail..


Cherokee is the same way with females and males. He loves on all my daughter's friends and is suspicious of all my son's friends. He outwardly dislikes one of my son's friends. When the girls are around, he wants to be on the couch with them. When the boys are around, he spends his time at the other end of the house with me.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

It seems a lot of dogs don't like men? Why is that?

Wally warmed up to my mom almost immediately, but he used to dislike me a lot. He would "do what he was supposed to" but it was like he was just going through the motions. No energy or anything and when left alone, he'd go away from me.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> It seems a lot of dogs don't like men? Why is that?


My guess would be that part of the reason is because men are simply aren't as available as women in many cases. I could be way off here, but when we were in obedience classes, even beginner, the number of women far outnumbered the number of men. There are NO men in my agility class either. I think it's harder to expose dogs to men alot of times, especially if you're already starting off with a defecit, like we are.

Also I'm sure the height/weight differences come into play, coupled with the fact that men might be more likely to be carrying large things (scary), wearing hats (scary), be loud (scary), running around (think playing ball in the field or something like that). Of course, I'm grossly generalizing, but the un-dog-savvy man usually scares a dog without realizing that he's even doing it.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> My guess would be that part of the reason is because men are simply aren't as available as women in many cases. I could be way off here, but when we were in obedience classes, even beginner, the number of women far outnumbered the number of men. There are NO men in my agility class either. I think it's harder to expose dogs to men alot of times, especially if you're already starting off with a defecit, like we are.
> 
> Also I'm sure the height/weight differences come into play, coupled with the fact that men might be more likely to be carrying large things (scary), wearing hats (scary), be loud (scary), running around (think playing ball in the field or something like that). Of course, I'm grossly generalizing, but the un-dog-savvy man usually scares a dog without realizing that he's even doing it.


I do think, in general, men approach more directly and in a squared-off fashion. The funniest story was when I was expecting our plumber, who is a gigantic mass of a man. He's very tall, muscular and testosterone-laden. I was expecting Cherokee to be all hackles up and barking. Well, when I opened the door to this man, he said hello to Cherokee in the squeakiest, high, dog-loving voice I have ever heard. And, guess what? Cherokee adored him  

Now, the stupid cable guy was convinced every dog loves him and went straight in for the head pat and got a ferocious bark-back. But, he didn't listen at all and insisted that it would be fine, "all dogs love me". I decided to crate Cherokee for that visit. That guy was an idiot 

Finally, as much as I don't care for Cesar Milan, I happened to watch the Dog Whisperer last night and there was actually a decent episode. It was him going into a business that allows dogs to come to work with their owners. He did some good work teaching people how to approach a timid dog (because this dog would hide under a desk and growl, people thought that it was a scary dog). Most people I know who listen to Cesar, I think, would assume that Cesar would say this dog was showing dominance. He did a great job explaining how to approach a dog sideways, to let them touch you before you touch them. He was actually having people use treats to make a positive association with new people! I liked it! I know lots of people think I'm nuts when I try to explain how to make friends with Cherokee. Maybe some will now get it if they watch that episode.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I agree about men being more direct with the dogs. Both my brother and friend Corvyn were very indirect with Tiberius. They let him approach them first, and Corvyn even crouched down to his level. Tiberius loves them both. My mom's husband, my boyfriend and most men that see Ti often (no that my boyfriend sees Ti often) walk right at him and reach to pat his head which causes him to cower. 

On a positive note, I just brought Tiberius back from a walk, and there were two yards with people in them and two businesses with people outside. In the cases of the yards it was men and women, the businesses were men, and Tiberius actually pulled TOWARD them to say hi!!  I was so happy. He didn't get to visit everyone because one yard they were having a BBQ, but he instigated saying hi. *happy dance*


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I can only add Donatello's own suspicious reaction to men. 

He really likes my father now, it's taken several months, but he will actually walk up (timidily) _on his own_ to recieve a head pat or a back scratch... It's really cool and it makes me feel so wonderful... He even lets my father sit down on the same sofa, if he gets too close Donatello will jump down and come lay by me... He doesn't panic and run, but I just don't think he's used to showing _affection_ to a male figure before. 

It also helps that my father doesn't raidiate intimidating energy either, lol. _I _probably emit more energy like that then he does! lol!

I really can't wait for my own place... I think Donatello will have a blast having a free run of his own home. I don't let him do that here for several reasons, not to be mean and controlling, although that's the type of response I get.  

I just don't think Donatello needs to be all entirely comfortable here; (I don't mean that as it literately looks.) This is only a temporary home, and I'd hate to see him grow so attached to other people and this home only to upset him deeply when we move out... _Besides_, there is _so_ many _negative_ emotions flowing through this place, I just feel it's best to keep Donatello next to me or somewhere I know he's safe. At least beside me I can control what he witnesses, what he's exposed to, and _who_ he's exposed to. 

Like right now, I'm downstairs, the other dogs are outside, and it's just me here at home... Donatello is downstairs with me, he went from laying beside me at the desk here, to just getting up and just mosing over to the sofa... Now _that_ I like to see... I like to see him comfortable enough to be independent... But I don't allow him to roam the house; He's only allowed in the upstairs bathroom, he's been in my father's office _only_ when I'm in there...

It's hard for me to really explain why he doesn't get to free-roam, all of my explainations make me sound like a control-freak to some people. Some of the reason Donatello doesn't get to free roam is because there are already _three_ other dogs. I'm not a "huge dog person" like I've mentioned before, mostly because of the dogs I'm talking about. I just can't handle a lot of commotion; I can't handle three dogs not listening to me; So adding another dog to the mix, regardless of how good he is, only adds to that commotion, gets the other dogs all wound up so _no one_ will listen, and it's just like a zoo. I feel bad, because when I do try to leave Donatello loose all day, he winds up getting trapped under my feet, he trips me, so I get upset with him when really it's not entirely his fault... So instead of getting frustrated and upset with him, I set a schedule so he has time to go outside, run around, play ball, wrestle, and all at times where I won't feel bogged down with wild animals.... 

I do have Donatello's best interests at heart.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Anyone have good news? Bad news? Indifferent news? 
Tiberius did good today. He even got to go out and potty off leash with Casanova. I have learned as long as Cassie is with him, he is amazing off leash in the yard. But he slid on Mom's wood floor and startled himself...hehe


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

All bad today...

1) Walk in my neighborhood that stressed Marge out, and she wound up reacting to another dog
2) Walk in the park, she heard a kid playing hockey, couldn't recover and we had to go home
3) Walk in the field, they set off fireworks so she pulled me home with her tail between her legs. I saw who was doing it, and I swear to God if they do it again I'm calling 911.

It has really been an awful weekend. The incident Friday has been on my mind and things just keep getting poured on on top of it. I'm likely making a vet appointment to discuss some things later in the week.. we can't live like this anymore


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I don't know this is would be consider bad or not, but there was a dog being "walked" (more like the dog walking the human) while we were walking and Wally wanted to sniff. 

So I stopped him, made him sit, then took him to sniff the dog.

They sniffed each other, but then he started growling for whatever reason. I don't know what Wally wants these dogs to do. We just left and he (Wally) got kinda upset, not sure why either, but he gruffed in frustration once, but then just walked like usual.

He does that a lot (the growling while he and another dog are sniffing each other, especially nose-to-nose or close to it), but he's never attacked or anything of that nature. I'll tell him to "be nice" which he seems to understand to mean don't bark in the dog's face, or snap at him from our previous work in calming him down, and he'll "be nice". Though, after a while he'll start the growling again unless I get between them and/or start interacting with the other dog.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I don't know this is would be consider bad or not, but there was a dog being "walked" (more like the dog walking the human) while we were walking and Wally wanted to sniff.
> 
> So I stopped him, made him sit, then took him to sniff the dog.
> 
> ...


Donatello has a tendency to do that as well... 

Not so much anymore, after living with three other rambuncious, nerve-racking dogs, Donatello is pretty conditioned to just about anything.

At times, when meeting a new dog or puppy, like in a petstore, he'd sniff for a few seconds, then start growling. The first thing that always popped into my mind was he was trying to act/sound like the dominant one. (If that makes sense.) He always appeared to be thinking, _"Okay. Okay. Now that I met you, I'm top dog,"_ I could be completely wrong on that...

I do the same thing you do; Whenever Donatello meets someone new, or someone new wants to pet him I tell Donatello, _"Be nice,"_ he'll look up at me like, _"Do I have to?"_ lol! But whenever I tell him that, he does seem to act more interested and more willing to greet the person and be friendly...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> Not so much anymore, after living with three other rambuncious, nerve-racking dogs, Donatello is pretty conditioned to just about anything.


Yeah, that's one advantage I think multi-dog "families" have. All that exposure will just have an impact. 



deege39 said:


> At times, when meeting a new dog or puppy, like in a petstore, he'd sniff for a few seconds, then start growling. The first thing that always popped into my mind was he was trying to act/sound like the dominant one. (If that makes sense.) He always appeared to be thinking, _"Okay. Okay. Now that I met you, I'm top dog,"_ I could be completely wrong on that...


It makes sense. It would help explain why he does it after the meeting. Certainly doesn't seem like a fear/defensive thing (unlike the barking when we're sitting and he thinks a dog is approaching us - that's definitely defensive, not that I know why THAT started). It would seem that if it was fear, it would be something he'd do on sight or at X distance, plus, Wally wants to run when afraid - not move TO what he's afraid of like he wants to with dogs.



deege39 said:


> I do the same thing you do; Whenever Donatello meets someone new, or someone new wants to pet him I tell Donatello, _"Be nice,"_ he'll look up at me like, _"Do I have to?"_ lol! But whenever I tell him that, he does seem to act more interested and more willing to greet the person and be friendly...


Sometimes it works, sometimes it works only briefly. 

It seems to work a LOT more with dogs who are acting relatively calm/quietly behind fences. He used to go over and bark in their faces too. That's when I started pulling him back and telling him to "Be Nice" and kept doing it until he started to understand "Be nice" equals sniff but don't bark/jump/etc. 

He's even made two "fence friends" now due to this. He'll want to go to them and then when he does, he sniffs and just investigates. One of them even whines for him to come over (a little dog - I don't know if he's a pup or a chihuahua or the like).


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Not much new here....had a nice hike around the lake at the state park today. We only passed by one person when walking, and he was sitting down...so Brenna just watched him and kept walking calmly by. Later we stopped to sit at a picnic table to take a break, and three people and a lab mix came from another direction and walked past, though at a good distance. Brenna seemed curious about the other dog, but that was all. It was just a nice, calm walk for all of us. 

I'm getting nervous about taking her to class for the first time tomorrow. I know there could be as many as 15 dogs there, not to mention at least that many people...and I just have very little confidence that she will listen to me or my husband at all. I think that she will probably be okay enough to lie down and watch the other dogs, but I certainly don't expect to be able to do any actual training there. I just wish there was something more I could do to help her, but I guess the exposure to new situations is the only thing that I can do at this point.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Good luck Cocoa! I wish you the best of luck in class. I chickened out of taking Tiberius to training classes this summer...maybe this fall or next spring he will be ready and so will I.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Why am _I_ the one that makes Jonas pee? He's been tested up and down and deemed healthy as a horse, but there are several situations in which he pees, but ONLY if I'm involved. If he's laying down somewhere, and I approach him, if I get too close he'll submissively roll and pee. Then he gets right up and goes about following me per usual. When we go to bed at night, or if I'm sitting at the computer desk, he'll beg me to get up, but when I go to pick him up he lowers his head and pees. Today on his walk he got tangled in his leash, I knelt to help him, and yep, pee.

NO ONE makes him pee but me. Strangers in the house approaching him don't even result in this (they used to, but not anymore) I can combat the urination by not coming near him and letting him come to me, and not picking him up, but I'm only masking the problem. Why me? I'm the one bending over backwards to make sure people don't upset him.


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## kpollard (Aug 3, 2008)

I have been lurking on this thread for months now and decided to finally join in the talks...

Teddy is a fearful dog with people. We got him at 9 months old, the lady that had him before us picked him up from the breeder at 10 weeks, took him home, and didn't take him anywhere until we came and got him. He'd never had a collar on or been outside her yard until then. We speculate that in that time frame the woman had a boyfriend or two who were not nice to Ted at all...he is very afraid of men and terrified of men holding something, even when it's my husband (he's not afraid of him normally, just when he's got something in his hands). 

We've had him just about a year and a half now, and we have made great strides! It used to be when someone new came over, he'd go to the farthest corner he could and just hide. No barking, no growling, just away. Total flight. You could corner him and he'd still just be frozen there. 

We've done all sorts of things for him, he's met all kinds of nice new people who feed him treats and stay out of his space and slooowwwlllly he came out of his shell.

The turning point came when we went on vacation earlier this year in June. We boarded him at a kennel with a very eccentric but dog loving man who was totally dedicated to his job. When I brought him in I said "He's very shy" and the guy immediately got down on the floor, turned sideways, and held his hand out and just waited. I knew then that he knew what he was doing. He lived at the kennel so Teddy got a lot of one on one attention, and it really did him a world of good to be somewhere like that without us to hide behind or depend on.

I actually cried this past weekend, we took him up to see my parents and one of my old friends came over with her husband and baby. Teddy was running around in the yard before they got there, and when they pulled up in the car he stopped dead and stared at it. When I went to greet them he actually came with me, with his tail up and wagging, and sniffed them both and made friends in a matter of minutes.

SUCH a difference from when it would take hours for him just to approach someone!!

We still have a ways to go, but I am so happy with where he is now. 

Just had to share.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Why am _I_ the one that makes Jonas pee? He's been tested up and down and deemed healthy as a horse, but there are several situations in which he pees, but ONLY if I'm involved. If he's laying down somewhere, and I approach him, if I get too close he'll submissively roll and pee. Then he gets right up and goes about following me per usual. When we go to bed at night, or if I'm sitting at the computer desk, he'll beg me to get up, but when I go to pick him up he lowers his head and pees. Today on his walk he got tangled in his leash, I knelt to help him, and yep, pee.
> 
> NO ONE makes him pee but me. Strangers in the house approaching him don't even result in this (they used to, but not anymore) I can combat the urination by not coming near him and letting him come to me, and not picking him up, but I'm only masking the problem. Why me? I'm the one bending over backwards to make sure people don't upset him.


Submissively peeing?

I've been under the impression that when dogs do that it's like they're submitting themselves to you completely; They letting you know that they know you're in control 100%... Or something like that...

I've known several dogs that submissively peed, one in particular with the entire family, kids too... The dog wasn't "fearful" or at least didn't exhibit fearful behavior... But they still took steps to show the dog submissively peeing wasn't necessary...

I could be wrong... I'm not a behaviorist. 

After all I've been through with Donatello I'm suprised he doesn't pee on me either!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally did it again, there was a loose dog running around and he/she ran up to us. Wally "greeted" the dog (they sniffed each other) but then after a while he started growling again. I noticed his tail going even higher, like he was making an effort to raise it even more than it usually is.

He didn't hurt the dog, and for some reason he/she didn't respond to his (Wally's) growling. I notice this too, I would have thought that if one dog growled at another, the target dog would respond in some way, be it with signals, backing off, or growling back even. 

Reminds me of when I brought in the lost dog before I turn him over to the local rescue organization, the dog tried to get into Wally's crate (with Wally IN the crate!) And Wally growled at him. The dog tilted his head like he never heard a growl before?

It's really interesting. Is Wally speaking some kind of canine foreign language? 



deege39 said:


> Submissively peeing?
> 
> I've been under the impression that when dogs do that it's like they're submitting themselves to you completely; They letting you know that they know you're in control 100%... Or something like that...
> 
> I've known several dogs that submissively peed, one in particular with the entire family, kids too... The dog wasn't "fearful" or at least didn't exhibit fearful behavior... But they still took steps to show the dog submissively peeing wasn't necessary...



Yeah, submissive peeing is a very strong calming/submission signal, asking you to be peaceful with the dog.

I've always wondered what makes a dog choose which signal to offer. Wally only once submissively peed and that's he first came and was utterly terrified of being in a new place with strangers. 

Even as fearful as he used to be, never peed. He'd shake and shiver and yawn and ears back/tail looking like someone cut it off - but never pee. He even turned his back on me, literally - another very strong signal.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

deege39 said:


> Submissively peeing?
> 
> I've been under the impression that when dogs do that it's like they're submitting themselves to you completely; They letting you know that they know you're in control 100%... Or something like that...
> 
> ...


I know he's submissively peeing, but it's killing me that I'm the only one that causes it. My boyfriend is probably right in his theory that because Jonas is only really bonded with me, he only submits to me. But I don't want him to!  I'm wondering if I stop being so up his butt all the time, and stop letting him sit on my lap constantly, if he'll stop. 

I guess I'll suck it up and call our behaviorist. I hate calling her with really stupid questions, but I know she'll have the answer.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

2:30 PM. Sat outside with Marge on my front steps feeding her peanut butter as people went by. Went better than I expected.

5 minutes later I take her in the backyard to brush her.. she's laying contentedly in the grass, and all of a sudden someone two houses behind us sets off one lone firework. Why?

This, my friends, is why my dog has issues.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> 2:30 PM. Sat outside with Marge on my front steps feeding her peanut butter as people went by. Went better than I expected.
> 
> 5 minutes later I take her in the backyard to brush her.. she's laying contentedly in the grass, and all of a sudden someone two houses behind us sets off one lone firework. Why?
> 
> This, my friends, is why my dog has issues.


Hmmm...time to start looking for a nice little house waaaaay out in the country?  For your sake, I really hope all this firecracker madness ends soon. I would be at my wit's end, too, if I were you! And poor Marge...she can't possibly understand what's going on.

ThoseWords--I don't really have anything to add to the discussion about Jonas peeing problem...except that one of my in-laws' doxies is really bad about peeing whenever anybody comes in the house...She rolls over on her back and everything. Sometimes you can tell she's being submissive, but other times it looks more like she is just so excited that she can't hold it in! So, if they know company is coming, they try to have the dogs go outside right before hand, or let the dogs go outside to greet people. Brenna has a slight problem with dribbling on the floor when she is really nervous, but that hasn't been an issue for a long time, until just here lately. I think the new floor is still making her a little panicky, or at least that's the only thing I can think would be causing this problem to recur.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> 2:30 PM. Sat outside with Marge on my front steps feeding her peanut butter as people went by. Went better than I expected.
> 
> 5 minutes later I take her in the backyard to brush her.. she's laying contentedly in the grass, and all of a sudden someone two houses behind us sets off one lone firework. Why?
> 
> This, my friends, is why my dog has issues.



There was someone in the development behind us setting off fireworks. I was like OMGWUT?!!11!!

Are people storing these things up or something? I mean, come on. 

Wally's issue with fireworks isn't as bad as Marge's - and I would like to keep it that way. *sigh* Evidently, the fates are conspiring against Marge (and I guess Wally now).


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm honestly starting to think someone's screwing around with me. I mean, I'm probably just being paranoid, but they're doing them right in the street, they're doing them so close to my house I can see the smoke from my backyard.. it's unreal.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Good morning, everyone! Just thought I'd pop in and tell you all about our first obedience class with Brenna last night. She actually did better than I expected! The trainer was very understanding and encouraged me to go at Brenna's pace as far as participating goes. She said not to push Brenna just because the class is being asked to do certain things, if Brenna wasn't ready. She had several large trash cans and such set up around the training facility, to block the dogs' view of each other a little and provide distraction as everyone walked the dogs around the room. Brenna wanted to pace at first, so we just sat down in our corner with her mat and let her circle around us for a while. Eventually, we did get up and walk around the room with the other dogs for a while. Brenna didn't want to give any sits when we were up with the other dogs, but she did surprise me by taking treats and offering "sit" and even "down" on her mat. Usually she won't even take treats when we are not at home, so this was great! 

Brenna was interested in some of the other dogs and sniffed the two that were sitting closest to us. There were a couple of VERY reactive dogs there, and they were barking so loud I wished I had ear plugs. I hope that their owners are able to work with them and help them calm down a bit in the future, because you could tell that they were making some of the other dogs uncomfortable (my own included!) But I have little hope for one of the reactive dogs because the owner (a quite elderly lady) didn't seem to be capable of handling him. He looked alot like Marge, MissMutt, only still a bit of a pup. IMO, he is too much dog for a little old lady to handle, if you know what I mean. He needs somebody who can go throw tennis balls for him for 2 hrs a day, plus take him on some good long walks/jogs...and most elderly people aren't going to be able to do that! Oh well...not my dog, so I guess I can't really worry about it!

Anyway, all in all, it was a good first time experience, and I think over the next couple weeks Brenna will begin to fit right in.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Nice first day at class for Brenna!

I often wonder how Wally would do in a class setting. Hopefully, he wouldn't be like those reactive dogs and be growling at the other dogs or something. 

Of course, its interesting with that growling thing. He tried it one of his "fence buddies" and the other dog jumped back and barked. For the rest of the time Wally was "saying" sorry with lots of calming signals. I saw nose-licking, fake sniffing (where they suddenly sniff the ground for like 2 seconds), and look-aways. 

He wasn't scared, he just wanted to "patch things up" it seems. I actually stayed in this interaction some figuring it was good for him to learn to do these things to/at other dogs. He's probably still socially inexperienced. Though, I didn't want to stay too long because the other dog was trying to squeeze through the fence again. 

That dog hates me, though. I approached from the side, didn't look at him and stretched my hand, palm up, to him. He didn't even want to sniff, or if he did it was barely because I didn't feel nose snot on my hand. I would try to give him treats, but I know how people feel about other people feeding their dogs (and I would feel the same way) so I don't.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah Cocoa, it really does stink that other dogs' issues might make the situation harder for our fearful dogs to get through. It happened in my beginner obedience classes as well.. if you continue with classes after this level, though, you'll find that there are less problems and the dogs who you're with are generally more well-behaved. (I've been on both sides of this.. with a fearful AND reactive dog, and I can't really decide which one stinks more. )

KPollard, glad you joined in the thread. Sounds like you've done alot for Teddy, and you deserve all of the happiness that you get from seeing him so happy. 

In MargeLand.. she was fantastic at agility. It's the first time we've been with a big group of dogs since the very first agility classes, so I was happy that she dealt well. I would like for you to watch this video, though. It is filled with mistakes from an agility standpoint, but I want you to focus on the teeter. Marge is afraid of the teeter and she wasn't supposed to go on it this time (I was trying to direct her away from it), but she pulls to it anyway. As you can see she performs it fully without jumping off, but then goes running out to greet the crowd and, I presume, look for cookies. My question to you guys is: *is this a stress reaction on her part, by removing herself from the teeter situation, or does she simply just look happy, got too excited and wanted to run and say hello to everyone?* I am being VERY slow with Marge and the teeter because I know that one setback could mean that she'll never want to get on it again.

She does the teeter at about :50.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

It didn't seem like stress. I think she just lost herself for a minute there.

Probably just got super excited and figured, "Hey I just ran the course so let me go get my props!" 

Perhaps she was super excited because she succeeded at the teeter? I know when Wally succeeds at something, he gets all wound up.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

The trainer yelling lots of cookies, lots of cookies would be enough to ruin Cherokee's focus for sure 

In situations like that, where the end of the obstacle is feeding directly toward the other people and dogs, I lose Cherokee very easily. He gets them in his line of sight and just wants to run over for a quick hello. It was nice the way she came right back to you.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Okay, so I figured I'd finally go ahead and post here. I've read through the thread a bit and everyone seems to have some good ideas, plus if nothing else I can just sympathize with those in similar situations lol. 

Anyway, Dakota's fear is strangely enough...flies. Or really any 'buzzing' insect. She isn't bothered by any kind of other buzzing be it from an appliance, outside, whatever but any tiny insect REALLY sets her off. I suspect it has something to do with the fact that she hears the high pitched buzzing of their wings (even when we can't) but doesn't really 'see' them as they are moving so fast. Likewise, I doubt she can really smell them either. So I would think it's coming off as just a really loud noise she can't identify or locate. Also, she isn't bothered by flies or bugs outside. It's really only when we have the porch door open and a stray bug gets in the house.

The problem is, this fear has slowly developed into a pretty crippling issue for her. The SECOND she hears the buzz of some flying insect her tail and ears go down, her body drops and she starts slinking around looking for a place to hide (usually under the bed or under the back corner of our dining room table). And once she's in one of these spots, she gets pretty darn comatose. It's not that she's frothing at the mouth or whining or anything like that - she's not really ACTING anxious. The problem is she isn't acting like anything at all. I can call her, offer treats, touch her, squeak toys and she won't respond at all. Often she won't even lift her head. And to be honest, it's kind of scary to ME that she's in such a state that she seems to barely hear my voice.

This tends to last for the rest of the night. Even after we get rid of the fly and she eventually comes out, she'll remain on alert and skittish for hours at a time. If she previously couldn't find a proper place to hide (like if I shut my door) then she spends the whole time slinking around (and looking up at the ceiling) like she's been beaten.

What I'm wondering is, do any of you have suggestion on how to deal with such a fear? The vet has been pretty unconcerned about it any time we bring it up in visits so that hasn't been a lot of help. This is a fear she's had her whole life and one she developed on her own as we have always had insects in the area. It started out as a little thing and steadily got worse, we've never had any success in either slowing it down or completely alleviating the fear. I've thought about things like Rescue Remedy (I think that's what it's called - the calming 'plug ins' you can get), different meds, etc. but I wanted to see what you all thought.

Sorry if this is kind of long and confusing, feel free to ask for clarification on anything! It's not so much the fly fear keeps her from doing any activities (as I mentioned, it doesn't affect her outside), I just can't imagine it's very fun for her to get THAT scared on a regular basis.

Thanks in advance!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That unresponsiveness is shutting down, Dakota. Once a dog gets to that point they kind of have to come out of it on her own. There is NO treat that she'll take at all, right? Or anything you can say to get her attention (cookie, food, walk, hungry, etc I know these are all Marge's "happy" words)?

The calming plug ins are DAP - Dog Appeasing Pheromone. I'm not sure that something like that would work for such a specific, extreme fear. It is harmless IMO, though, so if you want to try it and have the money, I suppose it's worth a shot. I have no experience using it, though.

Rescue Remedy is a mix of flower essences and, again, is a very hit or miss thing.

If she wasn't SO quickly freaked out by it, I'd suggest playing the Look at That game with her, where you click and treat her for looking at the scary thing. 

Otherwise, I know you said she isn't bothered by noises of appliances and such, but perhaps you can look around online and see if you can find an audio clip of bugs buzzing. They're most likely out there as this really seems to be a common problem for alot of dogs. What you'd do is play the clip on the lowest volume and slowly raise it over time, feeding her all the while.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Marge is looking good in agility! I didn't see any stress signals at all - tail was up, she came bounding back towards the equipment, she didn't bolt from the teeter when it hit the ground. Good deal.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> That unresponsiveness is shutting down, Dakota. Once a dog gets to that point they kind of have to come out of it on her own. There is NO treat that she'll take at all, right? Or anything you can say to get her attention (cookie, food, walk, hungry, etc I know these are all Marge's "happy" words)?


Yeah, that's what I pretty much figured. I don't really bother her when she's in that state because I know there isn't a ton I can do. I also don't want to make it worse by forcing her into something and causing the anxiety to rise. 

SOMETIMES I can lure her out with a treat. The thing is though, she'll either come out, eat it, and then go back into her 'scared' state or come out, see the treat, ignore it, and STAY in her scared state. It does nothing long term to break her from the fear. This is probably one of the bigger problems when it comes to dealing with her fear because normally my first step would be to reward her heavily in the scary situation. The whole 'turn it into a positive' deal. I can't really do that though when it's so hit or miss as to whether she'll actually even take the treat.

If I happen to notice the fly before hand, sometimes I can head her off and distract her for awhile with play time. She usually notices eventually though, and then play time is over as far as Dakota is concerned.



> The calming plug ins are DAP - Dog Appeasing Pheromone. I'm not sure that something like that would work for such a specific, extreme fear. It is harmless IMO, though, so if you want to try it and have the money, I suppose it's worth a shot. I have no experience using it, though.
> 
> Rescue Remedy is a mix of flower essences and, again, is a very hit or miss thing.


Ok yeah, I've only briefly looked into those option so I don't know all the specifics. I HAVE heard that they are pretty hit or miss though. Some dogs seem to respond real well while others experience little to no effect.



> If she wasn't SO quickly freaked out by it, I'd suggest playing the Look at That game with her, where you click and treat her for looking at the scary thing.


I'll see about trying this, anyway. As I mentioned above, she isn't always willing to take treats when in that state but I'll try mixing it in with a lot of heavy praise and see what happens. 



> Otherwise, I know you said she isn't bothered by noises of appliances and such, but perhaps you can look around online and see if you can find an audio clip of bugs buzzing. They're most likely out there as this really seems to be a common problem for a lot of dogs. What you'd do is play the clip on the lowest volume and slowly raise it over time, feeding her all the while.


I've actually thought about this in the past as it would feed into the 'make it positive' thing. I'm sure there's probably something on YouTube or elsewhere online so I will definitely check it out. 

Thanks for the help, MM


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Does she look forward to her meals? If so, you can try playing the buzzing sound during her meals. Someone I know has a dog afraid of a particular window in the house because of its shape and the noise it makes, and lately she's been opening the window purposely while the dog's in the middle of chowing down.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Why do dogs shut down? Is it some kind of survival thing? I just don't understand what it does to help them if they think they are about to die - lying there and panting seems counter-productive to trying to survive. Is it less "shutting down" and more like the ultimate in stress/calming signals (as in "Look, I'm not even moving, how can I be a threat to you, could you just leave me alone already?")

Why do they have to come out of it on their own? Why don't they respond to even their owner, especially when there's a good relationship there? If it's a stress signal, that might explain it - as a dog will use calming signals as long as it perceives the situation to still exist and something needs to be calmed. But if it's just a total closing down of the dog, I don't see what that does for him.

The whole thing with dogs shutting down just seems mysterious and just seems to be a "give up" move - which seems totally against the survival instinct all living creatures (even us "high level" humans) have?


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm kind of taking a guess but - 

Shutting down is typically a last resort. I haven't personally ever seen it happen with a 'threat' that could actually be fought (as in with teeth and claw), either. Usually it's something the dog can't combat like a certain sound, site, or object and they have already gone through the other common calming signals to try to alleviate said thread. When none of that works (since it's impossible for inanimate objects to respond to such cues) the dogs remain in a scared state, unable to escape whatever it is that is bothering them. Eventually this causes them to shut down. 

Another way to think of it is by remembering how abused dogs shut down. Abuse a dog enough and usually they will quit 'fighting' (since none of it has worked to stop the threat) and simply breakdown. Same goes for dogs that are manhandled into behaving a certain way. It usually is, as you said, an attempt to submit/look as non-threatening as possible.

As for not responding, I kind of equate it to a hysterical person. Once someone (or something) reaches such a high state of anxiety it can be REALLY hard to break it and thus calm them down. Usually someone that is in hysterics needs to kind of let it 'run it's course' so to speak. They don't ever really snap out of it or respond to the usual things that would typically calm them down. I think with dogs it follows the same kind of road. They are scared to the point that their mind really isn't registering anything else until said fear has left their system. 

Anyway, not sure if all that is 100% correct but it's kind of how I've worked it out in my mind. Anyone feel free to correct me lol.



MissMutt said:


> Does she look forward to her meals? If so, you can try playing the buzzing sound during her meals. Someone I know has a dog afraid of a particular window in the house because of its shape and the noise it makes, and lately she's been opening the window purposely while the dog's in the middle of chowing down.


She does, I'll definitely try that out. Sometimes the REALLY loud bugs will actually scare her off a meal but I'm thinking (and hoping) if I started the noise really quite I could maybe condition her to it in the same way you would anything else. Hopefully lol


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Going to call the vet today to see about our appointment.. I am sooo nervous.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm sending you good vibes, MissMutt! I was really, really nervous, too. But my vet was great and I felt more...hmmm...empowered, I guess, when I left his office. And more sure of my decision.

Then, of course, I was nervous about actually giving her the meds, because I didn't know how they'd affect her. But as you know, it's working out well. And I know it will for you and Marge, too!

Let us know how it goes!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I'll see about trying this, anyway. As I mentioned above, she isn't always willing to take treats when in that state but I'll try mixing it in with a lot of heavy praise and see what happens.


When I first started, sometimes Wally would be too anxious to eat the treat. I would click and present the treat to him anyway. I read somewhere that even if he doesn't take it, he knows he got it. 

I don't know if that's true, but I would put it all up on his nose and such. Sometimes he'd take it, but sometimes he'd lick it and just leave it there or start to eat it and then get distracted and drop it.

It must have worked because eventually, he'd eat in those situations and it just got faster from there.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> I'm sending you good vibes, MissMutt! I was really, really nervous, too. But my vet was great and I felt more...hmmm...empowered, I guess, when I left his office. And more sure of my decision.
> 
> Then, of course, I was nervous about actually giving her the meds, because I didn't know how they'd affect her. But as you know, it's working out well. And I know it will for you and Marge, too!
> 
> Let us know how it goes!


Well, I called, shook like a leaf the entire time I was on the phone lol. My vet isn't in until Wednesday (he must have been in the earlier half of this week and then switched) so I'm going a week from tomorrow, 9:30 in the morning, their first appointment. Figured it'd be better if the office is quiet. So I guess this next week we'll just take it easy.

I'm going to print out this form to show my vet. It is a low-cost thyroid test recommended to me by a few people.

So happy I got the nice receptionist on the phone.. the other one can be such a B****. 

Thank you all for the support.. I need it!

CS, how often do you use the Xanax on Mayzie? What is it helping with the most? (Focus, less flightiness, etc). How much improvement have you seen so far? I'm just trying to get a feel for the different medications, and, if possible, I'd like to put Marge on something situational rather than long-term, if it's possible.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Yay! I'm glad you made it through the phone call. I stuttered around when they asked why I needed an appointment. I think I was afraid they'd think I was some junky wanting it for myself.

I have been giving it to Mayzie when I know that we're going to go into a situation that will stress her out. Usually new places, etc. It took a few tries before I found the right dose for her. And it seems like the needed dosage varies depending on how high stress the situation is.

For instance, last week for our first obedience class, I gave her 1 1/2 mg. But this week, since she's been to this place twice (once earlier this week for a private session) and is more comfortable with it now, I'll probably drop it to 1.25.

What I've noticed is that it just seems to make her more capable of focusing. Before in a new situation, she was hyper-vigilant. Always looking for the boogeyman around the corner and ready to flee the entire time. Now even though she still seems nervous at first, she recovers much more quickly and is able to focus on me, taking treats, doing things like "touch," etc. At the private session, after the initial fear, she actually seemed to end up having fun. Explored the place, bonked things with her nose, etc.

And that's what I really wanted out of this. For her to be in a relaxed enough state that we could work together on her overcoming her fears.

Are you also going to do a preliminary talk with your vet about more long-term meds? I think the good thing about Mayzie's fear (if there is such a thing) is that it's very predictable. We know that going into a new situation is going to be hard for her. But with Marge, her fear is triggered by something very unpredictable and out of your control. I know that xanax can be used to stop a panic attack but it takes awhile for it to kick in (usually 30 minutes - an hour).

I know you're going to be nervous because, like I said, I was. But remember that you're advocating for your dog because she can't do it for herself. That's what I had to keep telling myself and I think it helped.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

MissMutt -- good luck with your appointment!!


Kim's turned another corner...I don't know if it's maturing or training or everything coming together or what. She proved last week at the vet what I've suspected for a while... that she is able to self-regulate and stay below threshold in the company of many strange people/dogs with minimal help from me (she still gets excited but it's happy-excited not reactive-excited if that makes sense). 

However her "scary objects" reactions have lingered longer, though she was finally, after nearly 8 months, able to get over her fear of the teeter and actually seems to enjoy it now. But tonight she showed that she can deal with new scary things as well...I took them to the park and for once the jungle gym was deserted. Just for kicks I asked Web to climb a short slide...he tried, slid back down, and stared at it perplexed. I expected Kim to be freaked out by the mere side of Webster sliding (an unfamiliar thing), but instead she just watched, looked at me, then ran up it herself! Not only that she stood on top, on the metal grating (scary!) and looked around calmly, then turned around and slid on her butt back down the slide like it was the most natural thing in the world. After that she went through scary hard plastic tunnels (off the ground, loud noises, slippery), targeted a swing (moving! scary!), and even (on her own) slid down a somewhat bigger slide!

I don't plan on doing the slide thing often (if ever again) due to risk of injury, but I was so happy that she was just having a totally relaxed good time and was ready and eager to try more. She still has her quirks and certain things make her nervous/overstimulated (like folding laundry) but she's coping well and able to handle it on her own...like a normal dog who's very aware of her surroundings rather than like a dog certain the world is out to get her. Yay Kim!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Shaina - that's so wonderful about Kim. I bet you wish you had a video camera with you. It sounds like it was probably quite a sight to see.

So I just had to brag on Mayzie. We went to class last night and the trainer was teaching us "leave it." Well, I've been working with Mayzie on "leave it" for months so when the trainer came around to me, I explained that to her and she asked to see how Mayzie did with it. Mayzie was sitting on her mat and I placed the food on the floor and told her to "leave it." At which point, she immediately played dead (she loves playing dead) and stayed that way until I released her. The whole class cracked up and she got a "super star" sticker for being, well, Mayzie. 

She did really, really well and I was very proud of her.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm getting really frustrated over here.

Took her to the WOODS yesterday, on our way back she heard kids playing at the park entrance. I tried to work her through it and only made matters worse. She left totally freaked out and shut down.

Took her to the BEACH today, there were a few people around but she wasn't really paying them any mind. Turn back to walk on a sandy trail towards the car that she likes, she sees three people stretching (I guess getting ready to work out), that scared her, so we head back into the parking lot, she hears men talking, that scares her. We wander around a little more, I'm hoping she'll come out of it, but nope, all she wants to do is get back to the car.

I know I have the vet appointment Friday but I am getting really frustrated that no matter where I try to go, even the most SECLUDED of places, there is still something to scare her. 

It's pretty funny how things work out.. that someone who tries to put the time in to excerise their dog and get their dog used to the world is the person who winds up with the dog who wants nothing more than to stay in her house and yard.

It's really hard not to be bitter sometimes.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, don't know what to say 

Never seen Wally do anything like that so I can't even suggest something that helped us. He'd be scared, but never totally shut down and with such relatively calm situations. Maybe anxious or nervous, but nothing to that degree  He always responded to me so it was easier to work him.

I hope the vet can give you some good help with Marge.

I guess you and Marge disprove that saying that "you get the dog you deserve". Like you said, it's not like you just leave her closed off from the world.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm the kind of owner who basically wants my dog to be able to come everywhere with me. I knew when I first got Marge that that likely wouldn't be the case, but I was okay with that. We walked in the field, at the boardwalk, on the beach, etc. As time went on I started taking her to parks, stores, training classes, and long walks in my neighborhood. And that was more than enough for me. 

The thing that frustrates me so greatly is that it's not just one thing. It's not JUST a fear or men. It's not JUST a fear of dogs or certain situations where dogs scare her. It's not JUST the fireworks and sounds. They're likely all related, but I try to fight one thing and something else comes along and screws everything up.

I took her for a short walk just now and she was doing really well. A kid passed us and I thought for sure she'd be afaid of him, but no, she was fine. Why? Because he wasn't making noise. Walked by people playing soccer, she was fine, why? Because they weren't making noise. 

On the way back someone blew a whistle, she got nervous. Why? Because think about how fireworks sound.. *ssscrrreeech -> POP* She's expecting the pop.

She did say hello to a cute little dog on the way home. Though she wasn't nearly as happy as she usually is when she meets the little guys, she did give him a couple tail wags, plenty of sniffs, and loose body language.

So it's mostly the noise, except when she's in social situations with men or other (large) dogs.. the only problem is the other things MAKE noise, thus bringing those things into this whole fearful thing.

By the way, I don't know if any of you have seen this article, but it has excellent information regarding anxiety meds for dogs.
http://www.dogaware.com/wdjanxiety.html


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Hi MM.
I'm so glad you have an appt to see your vet regarding meds for Marge. Cracker has come a LONG way since being put on the clomipramine and I don't regret putting her on meds for a second. I know you are frustrated (as was I) and once you find the right meds and are actually able to do some beh. mod on her and see the change start to kick in you will be able to enjoy your time with her more (as will she). It takes up to 6 weeks to see a difference but can occur sooner so just remember to be patient and give it a chance to work on her brain chemistry. Good luck. Thinking of you and Marge.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I feel your frustrations MissMutt... Although a lot of Donatello's "fear" issues are going away.

I'd say of the hours he's awake during the day, he maybe gets scared four or five times... Compared to the first few months when I got him and he would tremble over something every five minutes! 

I can completely sympathize with the whole "bitterness" thing too... My goodness, especially over Donatello's "weird fears", like -flies- and -mosquitos-  

His issues with other dogs and people are not nearly as heightened as they were... He's warmed up to my father a lot; The day before my mother left town I took Donatello with me to say my goodbyes, the whole two hours we were there he kept checking out our old room, then- get this- He even listened to my six year old sister! He's almost half her size when she's standing, (she's tiny) and she said, _"Sit handsome, Donatell-O,"_ (That's how she pronounces his name.  ) And he did! He sat handsome for a cracker, then she gingerly held it out and he reluctantly accepted, but I could tell he was pleased...

I was shocked, since December that is the _first_ time I could get those two within five feet of each other without one of them jumping and screaming.  And unfortunately it had to be the day before they left town for good...

Anyway, periodically I take him to the petstore where he'll take a biscuit from the cashier; It's cute, he takes the biscuit like he's just humoring them, then spits it out in the cart... I still don't let strange kids approach him, after the incident at that park that left _me_ emotionally scarred, I can't bring myself to let another strange kid that probably _won't_ listen bend down and get in his face...

My thing is right now, it's been raining for almost a week and Donatello is going stir-crazy. (AS AM I!) It's amazing how much time I spent outdoors without even realizing it! Everytime I leave my room he'll go and lay by the door, then when I come back in the room he rushes back to bed and looks at me like, _"I wasn't doin' noth'! Honest!"_ It's not been a delicate rain either, on and off every day there are heavy downpours and the backyard as little grass so basically it looks like a giant mud-pit! 

**sigh** So a couple times a day I spend time with him downstairs, he comes out and wrestles with the Pug to try and release his energy, but to really no avail... It's rough there, every time I leave the room to go to the bathroom he'll jump at me, then I'll tell him, _"Stay, you can't go outside. I'll be back,"_ Then he'll sigh, and put his head between his paws and just look all pitiful...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> **sigh** So a couple times a day I spend time with him downstairs, he comes out and wrestles with the Pug to try and release his energy, but to really no avail... It's rough there, every time I leave the room to go to the bathroom he'll jump at me, then I'll tell him, _"Stay, you can't go outside. I'll be back,"_ Then he'll sigh, and put his head between his paws and just look all pitiful...


Oh man, Wally has that look down pat.

I think it's become his favorite pose. It's funny because if he's feeling depressed (or whatever it is), he'll have his head down. But if he's just eager and waiting, his head will be up. 

As far as being bitter about our dogs' problems - I don't know if I feel that way. I feel more like "this MUST be conquered." So it's more stubborn/frustrated (when he regresses a bit), then I tell Wally to "man up" (figuratively) and we go through what we need to do. So I think I'm more the "You're getting it done. You have no choice." type.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

small update


i put comforters and pillows in the bathtub and bolo and i take naps in there...



the things we do for our dogs...but at least she no longer is fighting me about going in there..


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> As far as being bitter about our dogs' problems - I don't know if I feel that way. I feel more like "this MUST be conquered." So it's more stubborn/frustrated (when he regresses a bit), then I tell Wally to "man up" (figuratively) and we go through what we need to do. So I think I'm more the "You're getting it done. You have no choice." type.


I think my problem is that I react very adversely to Marge being afraid once we're back home, or in the car, etc. I have ALOT of trouble leaving my emotions out of the whole thing... MUCH more than I used to.

I wish she was a full-fledged DP dog. Now I am NOT a fan of DPs whatsoever, but to be honest I'm thinking about taking her again JUST to hang out with the small dogs as long as the owners dont mind. Now that the summer's over alot of the bad crowd will be weeded out. I'd never put her in the big dog section because she couldn't handle it and there are some not-so-nice dogs, but she runs fine with the little dogs and I think it'd be good socialization for her. Because of her fears, I have absolutely no way of reconstructing all the positive social situations she found herself in when she used to go there, and despite all the negative things I can say about the DP, I know it was pivotal in getting her better when I first got her. Any thoughts on this?

Zim that sounds like a step in the right direction, no matter how small it may be.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Honestly MM, I wouldn't do it until after you've given the meds a chance to kick in. Generalized anxiety takes time to settle and taking it easy for the first little while will help when you DO decide to try the DP.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Zim, that is a great idea! Bolo will love the tub in no time.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Cracker said:


> Honestly MM, I wouldn't do it until after you've given the meds a chance to kick in. Generalized anxiety takes time to settle and taking it easy for the first little while will help when you DO decide to try the DP.


Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe over the winter.

I have a feeling that my vet's first choice is going to be clomipramine. He strikes me as the type of individual who's going to be hesitant to prescribe the "human stuff." I don't know if clomipramine is what we need.. I feel like a low dose of Fluoextine (Prozac) daily might be better, with Alprazolam (Xanax) for more stressful or new situations on an intermittent basis (like what ColoradoSooner is doing with Mayzie).

Honestly, even if we have to go on the meds, I wouldn't necessarily mind it if she came up as low thyroid..

The other thing is the upcoming agility trial on November 1st. My plan was to enter her in it for 1 or 2 runs because she is almost "normal" whenever agility is involved and really truly enjoys it, but on the other hand I don't want her to go to it and have a bad experience. All the agility people tell me to do it, but I'm very split on it..


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Oh, MissMutt ((((hugs)))) I can just feel your frustration through your post.

Hang in there. Just a few more days til you see the vet. I am eager to hear how her thyroid test comes back and what type of meds you decide to put her on. I know that you are really hoping to go with situational meds but try to be open to the idea of more long-term medications. Wouldn't it be completely worth it if you ended up with a dog who you were actually able to work with again? Right now, you're in a vicious cycle and you need something to break it. I agree with Cracker that you should probably hold off on the DP until you have some time to figure out the medication thing. I think you're just feeling really anxious yourself and you're wanting to DO something to help her. Take a deep breath and focus on one thing at a time. First, the vet. Then...well, decide what the next step is at that time. Don't try to grasp the whole picture...just one little piece of it...and then go from there.

Deege - I had to laugh at your description of Donatello taking the treat and then spitting it out. The employees at pet stores will ask us if Ranger would like a treat and I'll say, "You can try but he'll probably take it to be polite and then spit it out." But they go ahead anyway and then, yep...that's exactly what happens. The good thing is, most people think it's very funny...not rude. 

Zim - you're my kinda gal! Glad you're taking a creative approach to Bolo's issue.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

CS, I've definitely opened up more to the possibility of daily meds. I realized that she spooks way too often for me to do things on an intermittent basis. That's why I think something low-dose every day would be good, with something stronger for situations where I know there will be alot of people and noise around. I'm still not thrilled with the idea of her being on them forever, but I guess only time will tell if she needs to be or not. Honestly there really isn't even a point in me continuing to mull it over because I have to see what the vet says first, ultimately.

Yeah, I've definitely been anxious and upset lately. I feel like we've been having so much fun, in the woods, at the beach, only for it to be spoiled by something so silly before we get home. I miss the days where I'd run her through the park or on the beach and have her exhausted and HAPPY at the end of our adventure. My boyfriend says I shouldn't look at it that way and I should think of the fun she had before she gets scared.. but I just can't. When Marge leaves a place feeling anxious and scared, I can't sit there and say to myself "well at least she had fun before we got back to the parking lot and XYZ scared her." He's TOTALLY for the meds, btw.

You guys have all been super helpful and supportive.. thank you so much.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Deege - I had to laugh at your description of Donatello taking the treat and then spitting it out. The employees at pet stores will ask us if Ranger would like a treat and I'll say, "You can try but he'll probably take it to be polite and then spit it out." But they go ahead anyway and then, yep...that's exactly what happens. The good thing is, most people think it's very funny...not rude.


LOL Wally will give it a "thankful lick" and then spit it out. Granted, I don't think he'd spit out much of anything that had any kind of smell on it. 

Then if it won't come out (like lettuce and it gets stuck on his tongue) he acts all silly trying to get it out and when he does he stares at it like "how dare you stay in my mouth when I want to spit you out!"



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> small update
> 
> 
> i put comforters and pillows in the bathtub and bolo and i take naps in there...
> ...



Wow, that's awesome.

Nice. I know I never would have thought of that!


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover, three words, WALLY SOUNDS HILARIOUS. lol!  

With Donatello's severe underbite, his upper lips get stuck on his bottom teeth, (a lot)- And more times then not it's when he looks up at me from an angle; So his ears flop back, and his (goofy-teeth as I call them) are showing, and his pooched up lips make him look like a "bat" or a "vampire" and he'll just look at me like, _"What? What's so funny?"_ lol. Because usually I start cracking up. 

I would just like to mention, in the good-news department; Donatello is doing fabulous! OMG... He's doing so wonderful; Things are increasingly devastating here at the house but Donatello seems hardly tuned in to it at all! He doesn't get frightened much, (thank goodness, because then I'd really have to bust-some-heads!) {I've come _too_ far with this dog, just to have someone-else's actions screw him up again!}

Anyway, he doesn't get frightened much (like I mentioned), but he's becoming a great "guard-dog". Every time there's just a little sound on the stairs, he sits up straight as a board, ears erect, and seriously vigilant... It's sad, because I can't tell if he's waiting for the door to **SLAM** or what, but either way he's becoming more aware that when someone comes down those stairs, they could be coming to our room...

Other than that- He's just a big trooper! Even amidst all of the chaos, he's still opening up! He's been getting down and romping around on the floor in our bedroom _a lot_ more, versus romping around on my bed. (It shows me he's becoming more comfortable to do things he's not used to.) And whenever there's a noise, he doesn't come running back to the bed like he used to, he'll perk up and wait, but if the noise stops he'll go back to playing; (BIG BONUS) But if someone starts coming down the stairs he runs to the bed and sits beside me, "playing Doberman" as I should call it. lol.

Since most of the rains have moved out of the area for now, I still don't let Donatello run and wrestle in the yard too much; It's still pretty swampy out there and I have a _white_ bedspread (of all the times to switch comforters), so I have to work extra hard to keep puppy paw-prints off of it! lol!

So instead of using the yard the last two days I've started up our walks around the neighborhood; He's doing great! I'm slowly teaching him direction, and I'm also teaching him something _so_ beneficial; Instead of allowing him access to trot on the asphalt (sp) or the "black-top", I make him trot in the small lip beside the curb, some might even call it the shoulder (??); Either way, I'll tug him lightly and say _"LEFT"_ then he'll go right to that patch of concrete and stay there; I've been keeping him going at a good pace too, I don't let him stop and sniff mailboxes and he's not allowed in the grass at all. (People in my neighborhood are persnickty about dog-poop and their yards)  So there are two spots both half-ways around the loop that Donatello is allowed to pee/poo in (which of course I pick up). But I just think he's picking it up really fast... He doesn't slow me down as much, and I don't have to wrestle him away from mailboxes or bushes anymore!

Anyway, I just thought I'd give everyone a cheerful update. (With the information floating around here lately we could all use to hear some good news, even if it's not our own!) 

So here's to bumping this thread and wishing everyone the best of luck with their dogs!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> KBLover, three words, WALLY SOUNDS HILARIOUS. lol!


Yeah, he gets crazy when it comes to food, both food he likes and doesn't like. Sometimes he'll flick it out my hand with his tongue like "don't even get that crap near my mouth. I licked it now give me something else."

What's silly is that he'll keep eating the same thing he didn't like. As if the next piece will taste better. He'll spit it out and look at me like "Got something else?" And he'll do it like 10 times. Then he'll lie down. I don't know if he's thinking "maybe if I do one of these stupid tricks, I'll get something better", or "hey, I got all day buddy. Make with the good stuff!"

Then if I walk away, he'll give me those big eyes, his ears will go out and his tail kinda hangs like he's saying "Hey, wait! It was nothing personal, really! I just didn't like it!"




deege39 said:


> With Donatello's severe underbite, his upper lips get stuck on his bottom teeth, (a lot)- And more times then not it's when he looks up at me from an angle; So his ears flop back, and his (goofy-teeth as I call them) are showing, and his pooched up lips make him look like a "bat" or a "vampire" and he'll just look at me like, _"What? What's so funny?"_ lol. Because usually I start cracking up.


LOL, I love that look and then it makes me laugh even more. Or sometimes I'll say "What was that?" like all shocked and whatever and then he'll start grinning and getting even more hyper.




deege39 said:


> I would just like to mention, in the good-news department; Donatello is doing fabulous! OMG... He's doing so wonderful; Things are increasingly devastating here at the house but Donatello seems hardly tuned in to it at all! He doesn't get frightened much, (thank goodness, because then I'd really have to bust-some-heads!) {I've come _too_ far with this dog, just to have someone-else's actions screw him up again!}
> 
> Anyway, he doesn't get frightened much (like I mentioned), but he's becoming a great "guard-dog". Every time there's just a little sound on the stairs, he sits up straight as a board, ears erect, and seriously vigilant... It's sad, because I can't tell if he's waiting for the door to **SLAM** or what, but either way he's becoming more aware that when someone comes down those stairs, they could be coming to our room...
> 
> ...



Haha, I know that feeling. I feel the same way with Wally. No one's gonna set him back. 

And that's great news about Donny! Nice job! You're right, it's great to hear of successes! Just encourages us to keep on fighting because the victory is attainable!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

I love reading about doggie quirks. I have had pets all my life and it never ceases to amaze me all the different personalities they seem to have.

Just wanted to jump in on the food issue. When Mayzie was rescued, she was half-starved. The rescuer's vet put her on 2 1/2 cups of puppy food a day to get her weight back up and she was still painfully thin when we adopted her two months later. I have no idea what her previous "owners" were feeding her (when they fed her) but no doubt it was the cheapest crap they could find.

So you'd think that a dog like that would be grateful for whatever you tried to feed her. Nope! We're always saying, "You're awfully picky for a dog who almost starved to death." She won't take dry dog biscuits as treats. And she also won't touch Pupcorn (our other dog LOVES it). I've tried feeding her her kibble during our training sessions but she turns her nose up at it and looks at me with a look that says "Hmmmph...I know you're holding out on me." She absolutely wolfs it down during mealtimes but somehow knows that kibble is not a "high value reward."  

Glad to hear everyone is doing well. If I remember correctly, Miss Mutt had the vet appointment yesterday and I'm anxious to hear how that went!

Have a great one!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Nope, vet appointment is tomorrow at 9:30 AM. I can't stop thinking about it!

Marge has actually had a ridiculously good week.. she has been so uncharacteristically happy. It kind of makes it hard for me to go in there and tell the vet "I need to help my dog with her fear issues." But I know I have to do it.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Oh, okay...I don't know why I was thinking that it was yesterday. Good luck!

And isn't that always the way? You take your car in for some weird noise and then the mechanic can't hear it? Or you make a hair appointment because your hair is driving you nuts and then the day of the appointment, it looks beautiful? At least those are the kinds of things that always happen to me. LOL.

Maybe Marge heard you say the word "vet" and has decided to be on her best behavior so you'll change your mind. Clever girl!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Maybe Marge heard you say the word "vet" and has decided to be on her best behavior so you'll change your mind. Clever girl!


Would be a great cue.

*See Marge shaking* MM: VET! *Marge stops shaking*

*See Marge tensing up* MM: VET! *Marge relaxes and keeps walking*

Ah...if only it were that easy...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

An...interesting interaction with a loose dog not too long ago. He came up to Wally and sorta went away a bit then came back (probably a calming signal/trying indirect meeting). 

They ended up meeting nose to nose and Wally growled a little. I told him to "be nice" and he stopped the growling and staring and started greeting. I praised him for that softly and let him continue to investigate the dog. When the dog sniffed Wally, I would gently remind him to "be nice" and when he accepted the dog's sniffing, I gave more soft praise. 

Eventually, the two of them were trying to sniff each other's butts (Wally had the advantage as he was longer so he could reach the other dog's butt but the other one could reach only to about his neck/withers heh). That went on pretty calmly. Wally went all up under the dogs legs  and the the other dog did the same, which Wally actually accepted! 

The whole time I was just watching and keep the leash loose so he could move and not feel like he was trapped and tried to stay out of the way - just let it be between the two dogs. I did step between them when it looked like they were staring nose to nose again.

After that, they went back to trying to sniff each other doing that circular dance-like motion dogs do (the whole greeting ritual is really interesting to watch) like they are trying to chase each other's tails. The other dog started running and of course Wally wanted to chase (actually, Wally was trying to "force" him into our backyard for some reason ). After that, the two of them sniffed each other again and Wally raised up a little and kinda barked or made some kind of sound (hard to describe, but I've never heard it before). I'm guessing (hoping?) that Wally was trying to initiate some rough play? I know I've seen pictures of dogs playing and sometimes it looks like they are chest-to-chest and wrestling with each other.

The dog ran off a little while after a little chasing between them to go pee on some stuff.

I thought that was that and had taken Wally off leash and directed him inside the backyard gate. Well, I see these eyes peering through the fence. 

I put Wally in a down and told him to stay and I went out. I wanted to get the dog to come to me - but silly me said "Here, boy". Oops. That was Wally's cue (in his mind) to come out again LOL. The other dog was just looking at me but then started sniffing our fence and sticking his nose through. Wonder what he was trying to sniff? 

I put Wally in another down-stay and he just stayed there, watching the other dog walking around and sniff around, and then even when the dog ran off somewhere else. That was pretty impressive. First time he had to do a down-stay off-leash around another stranger dog that was moving around. Pretty sizable distraction, especially since the other dog was only about 4 feet away.

Anyway, I was rather proud of him. The only thing I really didn't "like" was the initial growl he always does (am I making a big deal out of nothing with that) and a little concerned about the raising up on his back paws thing. Just want to make sure he's not leaning towards aggression. Also, once he tapped the dog on the butt with his front paw. I've never see that before! It was like he was saying "move or something so we can play!" LOL. Maybe he was doing the "paw" command on the dog to see what would happen. Wally's crazy enough to do it.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> An...interesting interaction with a loose dog not too long ago. He came up to Wally and sorta went away a bit then came back (probably a calming signal/trying indirect meeting).
> 
> They ended up meeting nose to nose and Wally growled a little. I told him to "be nice" and he stopped the growling and staring and started greeting. I praised him for that softly and let him continue to investigate the dog. When the dog sniffed Wally, I would gently remind him to "be nice" and when he accepted the dog's sniffing, I gave more soft praise.
> 
> Eventually, the two of them were trying to sniff each other's butts (Wally had the advantage as he was longer so he could reach the other dog's butt but the other one could reach only to about his neck/withers heh). That went on pretty calmly. Wally went all up under the dogs legs and the the other dog did the same, which Wally actually accepted!


^^ [PRICELESS DESCRIPTION] 



> The whole time I was just watching and keep the leash loose so he could move and not feel like he was trapped and tried to stay out of the way - just let it be between the two dogs. I did step between them when it looked like they were staring nose to nose again.
> 
> After that, they went back to trying to sniff each other doing that circular dance-like motion dogs do (the whole greeting ritual is really interesting to watch) like they are trying to chase each other's tails. The other dog started running and of course Wally wanted to chase (actually, Wally was trying to "force" him into our backyard for some reason.) After that, the two of them sniffed each other again and Wally raised up a little and kinda barked or made some kind of sound (hard to describe, but I've never heard it before). I'm guessing (hoping?) that Wally was trying to initiate some rough play? I know I've seen pictures of dogs playing and sometimes it looks like they are chest-to-chest and wrestling with each other.
> 
> ...


That sounded like a real big bonus for you KBLover! Seriously! It sounded like Wally really took a liking to that stranger and was trying to initate a wrestling-match.

I do think the inital growling thing isn't really anything to be too concerned with. IMHO. Donatello has done the same thing before on an occassion or two, and after saying "be nice", some gentle praising, and after rubbing on the strange dog, Donatello would "let by-gones be by-gones" as they say and would actually "greet" the other dog... 

I really just think some dogs, like Wally and Donatello, I think they feel they have to show the other dog _"Hey, don't try to walk all over me man, I won't allow it,"_ when in all reality they'd probably run from a fight the second someone bares their teeth.  

When my father and I took Donatello to the dog park, more like when Donatello and I took my _father_ to the dog park,  I actually got to introduce my father to a good aquaintence (sp) of mine and his two dogs Scooter and Emmy. I may have mentioned them once or twice before. Scooter is a cantankerous old GR and Emmy is a Bearded-Collie. Anyway, Donatello had a rough go with Scooter at first, but after many months of meeting up with them every couple days Donatello warmed up to them both in a matter of months; Well it been just about as long since we've seen them, and when we met up with Steve as he was leaving Donatello went crazy! But in a good way! He started barking, (very rare to hear), but it was his happy "yippy-yappy" bark, and he started darting at and play bowing with Scooter. lol. Scooter just sat back on his haunches and stared at him like, _"Please, pup, get a life,"_ It was adorable to watch though... And Steve was completely impressed because although Donatello has interacted with Scooter and Emmy before, Donatello up until now, has not been a "social-butterfly"... 

As for the good-news department; Today, my father and I sat downstairs to watch a football game, I let Donatello out to wrestle with Boog, the Pug puppy, they got to wrestling and when out-of-the-blue Donatello _jumped_ up on my father's chest (he was stretched out on the sofa) and proceeded to wag his tail, and sniff his face. My father was stunned! lol! As was I!! Donatello has warmed up to my father _a lot_, but this is the first time Donatello has intiated any type of behavior in regards to my father... It was great. But then Donatello must have realized what he done and to whom because he sat down, (on my father's chest, lol) and looked over at me from across the room, then he jumped down and came to jump up on my lap and willingly "gave me a kiss" (I'm so glad I taught him that) as if to tell me, _"It's okay, I still love you because you give me food!"_


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

My laptop died..so checking in is sporadic..bleh.
Tiberius has learned to bark in the house..that is now my morning wakeup. Its his "Mom..I gotta go out" noise. he stick his nose in my face and barks. gods I love my dog.
Also recently he has learned the joys of fetch, tug ropes and squeeky toys.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sounds like Donatello and Ti are really enjoying life. 

Marge isn't doing too bad. I'm trying to interfere with her less on walks, just kind of holding the leash and let her do her thing, within reason.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> I really just think some dogs, like Wally and Donatello, I think they feel they have to show the other dog _"Hey, don't try to walk all over me man, I won't allow it,"_ when in all reality they'd probably run from a fight the second someone bares their teeth.


LOL yeah, you know that. So much huff and gruff and just a little mouse inside.

It's funny because he started doing it after working up the nerve to actually want to interact with dogs. Seems funny that he'll walk up to a dog and then when the dog gives Wally attention, that growl comes out. 

I'm like "if you didn't want to be bothered, why are you bothering that dog?" He probably would say, "I just wanted to sniff his butt. I didn't want to get into a relationship!"





deege39 said:


> As for the good-news department; Today, my father and I sat downstairs to watch a football game, I let Donatello out to wrestle with Boog, the Pug puppy, they got to wrestling and when out-of-the-blue Donatello _jumped_ up on my father's chest (he was stretched out on the sofa) and proceeded to wag his tail, and sniff his face. My father was stunned! lol! As was I!! Donatello has warmed up to my father _a lot_, but this is the first time Donatello has intiated any type of behavior in regards to my father... It was great. But then Donatello must have realized what he done and to whom because he sat down, (on my father's chest, lol) and looked over at me from across the room, then he jumped down and came to jump up on my lap and willingly "gave me a kiss" (I'm so glad I taught him that) as if to tell me, _"It's okay, I still love you because you give me food!"_



That's a great story  I love the "OMG that's her father I'm standing and licking on" reaction and then he sat down (never mind on his chest). Too funny. As is the "I still love you because you give me food!" - Dogs can be such players


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sorry I missed this KB..



> After that, they went back to trying to sniff each other doing that circular dance-like motion dogs do (the whole greeting ritual is really interesting to watch) like they are trying to chase each other's tails. The other dog started running and of course Wally wanted to chase (actually, Wally was trying to "force" him into our backyard for some reason ). After that, the two of them sniffed each other again and Wally raised up a little and kinda barked or made some kind of sound (hard to describe, but I've never heard it before). I'm guessing (hoping?) that Wally was trying to initiate some rough play? I know I've seen pictures of dogs playing and sometimes it looks like they are chest-to-chest and wrestling with each other.


I kind of feel like you'd know almost certainly if Wally was trying to initiate rough play. Maybe he was confused by this little guy being on his turf and just didn't know what to do altogether? What pitch was the bark/noise? I'm going to guess that there were no teeth?

That's a pretty funny story though, about the down-stay mishap.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I always read everyone's posts about their dog-dog interactions with great interest. We have the opposite problem of many here - Poca is very dog-focused and wants to greet every dog she sees. It's actually kind of scary since sometimes we meet a dog that isn't as dog-friendly as the owners think it is (honestly, they rarely are). So I watch the other dog carefully and if I see any signs I don't like, we move on. I wish she was more cautious about dogs and less cautious about people!

I'm thinking of going to a Brenda Aloff seminar in a couple of weeks. I've been through her book on body language and it's helped me spot trouble a lot earlier. I'm hoping to pick up a few new techniques that will help me restart Poca's training program - I've been in a bit of a stall this summer.

Anyhoo...Poca is still barking at strangers who come to the house and she's still afraid of the vet. But my husband had a very proud moment with her last week when he picked her up at daycare. There were 5-6 owners in the lobby waiting for their dogs to come out and it was very noisy. All the other dogs were coming out and pulling like mad and jumping. The handler brought Poca out and she took one look at the crowded lobby with all those scary people and.....walked calmly out the door with my husband! HA! Normally she would shy away, tail tucked, and try to get away from all the commotion. But that day she was the calmest, most well-behaved dog in the bunch. He said he was never more proud of her than at that moment. Made me want to cry, it was so sweet. Just when you think you're not accomplishing much, you get a day like that. Guess that's why we all keep trying.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I kind of feel like you'd know almost certainly if Wally was trying to initiate rough play. Maybe he was confused by this little guy being on his turf and just didn't know what to do altogether? What pitch was the bark/noise? I'm going to guess that there were no teeth?
> 
> That's a pretty funny story though, about the down-stay mishap.



The noise was kinda lowish pitch, but it wasn't very long. It almost sounded like he was puffing out air on the dog (like "hey smell my breath" LOL). It was about a half-second long and sounded like "Grouf!" 

His overall demeanor didn't change (i.e. he looked/acted the same as he was when he was molesting...er I mean sniffing the other dog and when the dog sniffed him and during their little chasing)

There were no teeth, wasn't a snapping motion and the other dog kinda moved back but wasn't defensive/scared. 

Wally and his diverse vocabulary! 

That's when Wally put his paw on the other dog's butt (still don't know what that was about, I've NEVER read anything about a dog doing that to another). It was like a "paw touch" but the other dog WAS confused by that. He had a WTF look on his face. LOL


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## linzziiie (Sep 27, 2009)

i just got my 7 month old beagel a little over a week ago. when we met her she was very scared of us and the previous owners said she was like that with everyone she doesn't know. she was very quiet and calm...which didn't last long. when we come home she tackles us and jumps from our couch to our love seat untill we sit down and rub her belly. i have just been taking her eveywhere with me, with the exception of work, but when i am at work my husband is usually home and takes her places too. i just hope that if i get her out and around people and other pets she will open up. because she is very shy. she is also the same way around other dogs.

i took her to my parents house a few days ago, they have a 1yr old border collie mix and she is about the same size as my trixi and i have never seen her more playful or comfortable around another animal. so needless to say they will have more playdates.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I always read everyone's posts about their dog-dog interactions with great interest. We have the opposite problem of many here - Poca is very dog-focused and wants to greet every dog she sees. It's actually kind of scary since sometimes we meet a dog that isn't as dog-friendly as the owners think it is (honestly, they rarely are). So I watch the other dog carefully and if I see any signs I don't like, we move on. I wish she was more cautious about dogs and less cautious about people!


My dog's cautious of both (big dogs, anyway) but I think you're extremely lucky to have such a reinforcer. The way I think of it is that since she loves dogs so much, dogs usually come with an owner, so even if the contact isn't direct, she is, in a way, having a positive experience with a person.

Great news about your hubby and the crowded lobby. Sometimes the whole thing just clicks with every party involved. 



> That's when Wally put his paw on the other dog's butt (still don't know what that was about, I've NEVER read anything about a dog doing that to another). It was like a "paw touch" but the other dog WAS confused by that. He had a WTF look on his face. LOL


Ooo I missed that. Well, I know when Marge swats that means she wants to play. I don't think the encounter was anything to worry about in terms of aggression.. my concern with *my* dog (keep in mind Marge and Wally operate VERY differently lol) would be that the growl doesn't work to keep the scary dog away and then he'd go for me, but his growl really seems more like its just slight apprehension than Marge's more forward, "get out of here!" growl.



> i just got my 7 month old beagel a little over a week ago. when we met her she was very scared of us and the previous owners said she was like that with everyone she doesn't know. she was very quiet and calm...which didn't last long. when we come home she tackles us and jumps from our couch to our love seat untill we sit down and rub her belly. i have just been taking her eveywhere with me, with the exception of work, but when i am at work my husband is usually home and takes her places too. i just hope that if i get her out and around people and other pets she will open up. because she is very shy. she is also the same way around other dogs.
> 
> i took her to my parents house a few days ago, they have a 1yr old border collie mix and she is about the same size as my trixi and i have never seen her more playful or comfortable around another animal. so needless to say they will have more playdates.


Glad Trixi found a suitable friend! You'll definitely have to capitalize on that by bringing her over there often. She's the one who won't take treats yet, right?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Ooo I missed that. Well, I know when Marge swats that means she wants to play. I don't think the encounter was anything to worry about in terms of aggression.. my concern with *my* dog (keep in mind Marge and Wally operate VERY differently lol) would be that the growl doesn't work to keep the scary dog away and then he'd go for me, but his growl really seems more like its just slight apprehension than Marge's more forward, "get out of here!" growl.



Ahh good  

Wanting play is excellent. 

A little apprehension is expected, given how he is. It only happened at the beginning to so that's probably a good sign too. 

Thanks for the help in deciphering that interaction. Wish Wally would stick with the "textbook" sounds and actions


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh, KB, there is no textbook. You know that. All our dogs are #%$#@%$ weirdos.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

KBLover said:


> Ahh good
> 
> Wanting play is excellent.
> 
> ...


When Cherokee REALLY wants to play, he will do a low rumbling growl, it's kind of like deep down he's revving his engine. A lot of dog *owners* are put off by the sound but, lots of different vocalizations are a part of dog play.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MegaMuttMom said:


> When Cherokee REALLY wants to play, he will do a low rumbling growl, it's kind of like deep down he's revving his engine. A lot of dog *owners* are put off by the sound but, lots of different vocalizations are a part of dog play.


True - I think Wally is a very vocal player. 

He'd be the kind of player that's talking trash at you on the field or if playing each other at the arcade, he'd be like "I'm SO going to beat you! Get ready for it!" 



MissMutt said:


> Oh, KB, there is no textbook. You know that. All our dogs are #%$#@%$ weirdos.


LOL

So true!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey everyone...sorry I haven't posted much lately. I guess there hasn't been much to say.  

We have obedience class again tonight, and I'm hoping that we'll have a nice calm evening there. Brenna did a little better the second week, at least as far as walking around the room with the other dogs. It was alot less "barky" last week, actually very quiet, surprisingly enough! I was a little late getting there, so that made me tense--hate being late--which Brenna no doubt read as well. So, she had to do quite a bit of pacing for the first little while to calm down. I intend to get there much earlier this week to give her a chance to get settled before class starts. At least she is listening to me enough there to follow some commands when on her mat, just not when walking around with the rest of the class.

At home, things are going pretty well. She is doing great with the sit-stay and down-stay as well as touching the target stick I made her. I think we are to the point where I can use sit-stay to teach "come," which is the biggy that we want her to learn, since she won't always come when she's nervous or scared. For instance, hubby re-stained the deck this weekend, and we had to use the front steps until the back ones were dry. At one point, Brenna tripped (who knows why) and fell up the steps. So, I had to put her on leash to get her to come up them since she wouldn't do it on her own when called. I thought that it would be okay once we went back to using the steps on the back deck, but no...because they smell and look a little different to her, I guess. So, now I will have to do some counter-conditioning with her outside, just like we did for the new floor. Geesh...I guess we need to stop trying to do home improvements!


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Hey everyone. I've got some super good-news!!

Around 4:30 this afternoon I decided to take Donatello on an early evening walk, we weren't 100 yards away from the house when we came upon a Ford Explorer... A lady was standing beside it with her bags, smiling at me, she had a Poodle in the car, about the size of Donatello... Barking his head off! I knew instantly she didn't have a leash, when she said, _"Hey, how's it going? I didn't take a leash with me so I'm just waiting for you to pass before I get him out,"_ I guess in her way she was trying to be considerate, but once she admitted my fears I knew the dog wasn't going to listen, and I was concerned for Donatello...

In the past, Donatello has just about gotten into a scuffle with _every_ dog that we've encountered off-leash... Even puppies... Although he is a different dog altogether, I was still nervous...

Sure enough, we didn't even make it past the hood of her vehicle when she opened the door. I was booking it at this point, but trying not to be obvious... Then I heard, _"Ripley, no, Ripley, in the house! Aw, Ripley, no!"_ I knew this was going to happen, so I stopped and turned, bracing myself for it, when I stopped Donatello stopped then turned and looked just in time to be tackled by the poodle. (Not in a bad way.) The dog was just over-excited, thank dogness, and proceeded to poke and pry and violate Donatello with his nose...

I'm standing there visibly shaken up; The worst was over, if there was going to be a scuffle Donatello would have been at the dog's throat before the dog had a chance... So Donatello standing there, stiffly, but tolerant over this strange dog, he gets a few sniffs in then Ripley turns and pees on a mailbox...  The owner finally gets up to us and she's apologizing her brains out and I just simply nodded and said _"No problem,"_ Had a scuffle did break out, she'd be doing a lot more than just apologizing! lol!

Donatello did fantastic! I praised him when we started walking again, which he just looked back at me for a second, wagged his tail once and then kept on walking... Kind of like saying, _"You owe me one for that!"_


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Nice job, Donatello!

And you too deege for getting him to this point 

What a great show of self-control for Donatello!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Yay for Donatello! That lady sounds rather clueless, though, huh? Glad that Don was able to manage the situation well. That's a big deal! 

Brenna did well at class tonight. I was rather discouraged at first, because even though I was able to get her to focus on me at her mat, as soon as we started walking around the room her attention was gone. I looked around at all the other dogs, most of whom were looking at their people and obeying nicely....and then there's Brenna, doing everything she's not supposed to...sniffing the ground, pulling the leash, looking at all the other dogs, and totally ignoring me. But when we'd get back to the mat, she'd do what I told her to do! I finally got to chat a bit with the trainer during a break, and she was very encouraging to just continue to be patient and try different things to help Brenna. 

Then, for some reason, during the second half of the class, Bren actually showed progress! The trainer had us get in two parallel lines and put our dogs in sits and downs for different amounts of time. I really didn't think Brenna would actually sit, but she was taking treats and looking at me, so I decided to try it....and surprisingly, she sat down! Then she even laid down a couple times! Wow! I was so happy, but I knew I couldn't make a big deal out of it because that would just throw her off.  Of course, she wasn't able to sit still nearly as long as the other dogs, but I didn't care about that. I was just happy that she actually did something new! Oh, and she also walked through the ladder with me at the end of class, whereas last week, she only barely sniffed it! Yay! Baby steps! Now she has earned a quiet evening at home, and we are all happy.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Nice job, Donatello!
> 
> And you too deege for getting him to this point : )
> 
> What a great show of self-control for Donatello!


I'm so proud! 

And again this morning, around 10:00 we went on a walk. (He focused much better this morning.) And again, we passed this lady's house, she's sitting on her stoop, her son/boyfriend/husband was standing beside her, _Ripley_ was in the yard, _off-leash_ again... I rolled my eyes and said, _"Oh no, brace yourself Donatello,"_ Luckily this time Donatello saw the dog coming head on, so he was more prepared, and having met the dog just last night I'm sure the scent and sight of the dog was still fresh in his mind... Ripley came charging up, sniffing again and I heard the lady say, _"Oh, it's alright we did this last night,"_ well, her son/boyfriend/husband came running up, but didn't make a move for the dog... I wasn't sure what he was waiting for... So she comes up and Ripley instantly freezes and starts slinking low to the ground, clearly showing signs of an abused animal. (I'm not accusing her directly, because Donatello shows signs of being abused, (still), and I don't lay a finger on him.)

She reached down to pick Ripley up, and Donatello cowered away from her and hid behind me... Now, in her defense Donatello does _not_ like anyone picking him up, doesn't matter who it is and considering she's an absolute stranger he's never gotten to sniff I think he was scared she was aiming for him... But he didn't growl, snap or anything... So I'm super proud!

Anyway, she picks up Ripley and I said, _"Well good morning,"_ lol, and she replied then asked me how I was, yada yada yada, then I was on my merry way... 

Donatello kept looking back like, _"Sheesh, that was a close one!"_



CocoaCream said:


> Yay for Donatello! That lady sounds rather clueless, though, huh? Glad that Don was able to manage the situation well. That's a big deal! : )


Well, what bothers me is, this is a neighborhood that during anytime of the day you'll see several people out walking their dogs... There are dozens of dogs that live here... And since it's so clear that _Ripley_ can't listen to his master, he shouldn't be allowed off-leash, but the apparent "coolness" of her actions tell me she's been allowing this for a long time and believes she has no reason to stop...



> Brenna did well at class tonight. I was rather discouraged at first, because even though I was able to get her to focus on me at her mat, as soon as we started walking around the room her attention was gone. I looked around at all the other dogs, most of whom were looking at their people and obeying nicely....and then there's Brenna, doing everything she's not supposed to...sniffing the ground, pulling the leash, looking at all the other dogs, and totally ignoring me. But when we'd get back to the mat, she'd do what I told her to do! I finally got to chat a bit with the trainer during a break, and she was very encouraging to just continue to be patient and try different things to help Brenna.


 Sounds like Donatello, the minute he catches a scent, or sees something "interesting", all focus is lost... I have to literately be _in his face_ for him to look at me and listen. lol. 



> Then, for some reason, during the second half of the class, Bren actually showed progress! The trainer had us get in two parallel lines and put our dogs in sits and downs for different amounts of time. I really didn't think Brenna would actually sit, but she was taking treats and looking at me, so I decided to try it....and surprisingly, she sat down! Then she even laid down a couple times! Wow! I was so happy, but I knew I couldn't make a big deal out of it because that would just throw her off. : ) Of course, she wasn't able to sit still nearly as long as the other dogs, but I didn't care about that. I was just happy that she actually did something new! Oh, and she also walked through the ladder with me at the end of class, whereas last week, she only barely sniffed it! Yay! Baby steps! Now she has earned a quiet evening at home, and we are all happy. : )


Congratulations!

Baby steps. I can contest to that! Every day now Donatello seems to do something different that's showing he's turning into a _dog_ more and more... Like today, for the first time, I caught him playing "tug-o-war" with the Pug puppy; They weren't just wrestling; Donatello had found a rope toy (not one of his) and started parading it around, the Pug grabbed a hold and **bam** they were tuggin' and pullin' and growlin'... I've never seen Donatello play with another dog using toys... It's fantastic!

Baby steps is the way to go for sure CC! Especially with shy/timid/fearful dogs... Sometimes, the best way, in certain areas, letting them figure things out on their own is the best medicine you could give them...  

Congratulations again!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Nice job, Deege! Marge would totally have a conniption if a dog came flying out at her like that. lol.

Cocoa, keep with it. Brenna's sniffing is probably her way or dealing with her stress. And, just think, it's MUCH better for her to be interested in what's going on around her than be terrified of it!

Well, as you guys know, Marge goes to agility class every week. So I post in the "agility classes" thread the way I post in this one, with my updates. My posts this week are going to be vastly different, because from a behavioral point of view, Marge was feeling fine.. visiting everyone, getting petted, making friends with exotic PWDs who she previously hated.. but from an agility point of view, she was running zoomies and not paying attention on the field. LOL. It was nice to see her so happy and I was *so* upset that I had to end it for her, but we were at class, she was supposed to be working.. so next time she'll get an extra walk before class.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Number of times I've heard/read the word "conniption" in the past year before now: zero 

Anyway, great job for Marge (aside from just running all over the agility field heh) nice to read about her being carefree and having fun.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I've gotta ask, guys... 

If you have to adapt new routines for other people's dogs, but they won't do it for your dog; how would you feel?

Instead of training the dogs to stay out of the bathroom, we have to make sure the toilet lid is down at all times... This is a new rule by the way... Anyway, we also have to _"watch what we put in the bathroom trash"_ ... My philosophy is, _train the dog, not the people_. (When it comes to silly stuff like this.) 

Okay, but other people don't care to watch how hard they close [slam] the door beside my bedroom, startling Donatello _every_ time... I just don't think it's "fair", for lack of a better word.

Donatello would never drink out of the toilet, unless he was locked in a bathroom for a week and on the verge of dehydration/starvation...  He's not a "go-getter", and in no way is he forceful, he doesn't take charge and do what he wants, he almost always waits for me to give him the green-light... 

This doesn't necessarily go with "fearful dogs", but in a way it does... I'm asking all of you guys, the ones that follow this thread, because I feel you guys would understand more of where I'm coming from...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I do understand where you're coming from and unfortunately, it's just part of the territory. 

It's great to train a dog to stay out of the toilet or garbage, but I'm of the school of thought too that a little human prevention does go a long way. For example, although Marge knows she's not supposed to go through the garbage, we won't leave her home alone with chicken scraps laying in the trash. 

In terms of slamming doors, etc., I SO hear you there. I wish my dad would learn to be a little more cautious about what Marge gets set off by.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well that's the thing MissMutt... I should have added this... They want the doors open now, well following the line of "prevention", why not just keep the doors shut? That's easier to remember then all the other little rules that were never in place until they decided to keep the doors open! 

They except me to adhere to their rules, well, territory or not, I'd like them have to have some respect for my dog... It's one thing to scare their dogs brainless with the screaming and the door-slamming, but when everything is calm, and they can't just close the door normally, they've got to push it closed... It just irks me... I don't know.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

OOHHH. Missed the part about the doors being open as opposed to closed. Yeah, that makes much more sense. Easier for both dogs and humans with the doors closed.

People can be SO fickle sometimes.. don't worry, eventually Donnie will live alone with just you in a nice quiet house.. hopefully the same can be said for Marge and I


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Yeah, you're right MissMutt...

I can't pray enough to get my own place! Donatello will love it! No dogs to get under his skin, no _fickle_ rules to get on my nerves... No doors "closing just a little too hard", nothing...

C'mon paychecks!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Something I've noticed about Wally lately.

He won't approach people, but has no problems with being approached.

Is it just a side effect of my training with him. He thinks he's supposed to stay next to me and let people come to him?

Yesterday a father and his little boy was out and they were really calm people. He gave Wally space and kneeled down, trying to entice Wally to him. I gave Wally a touch cue and he kinda did it (I saw nose snot on his hand), but pulled back.

But then the kid came over and he was sniffing the boy's air like crazy. Nose going a mile a minute. He let the boy pet him and even touch his butt and one of his back legs. Wally was just sniffing the kid and then sniffed the father (more nose snot) and let him rub his head and ears. 

So he wasn't scared at all. I just wonder why he doesn't like to approach. Maybe because the dad was looking at him, even though he was kneeling? But then, he was looking at him when he was getting rubbed on his ears and such by him. 

Of course, not approaching isn't really a problem for me - so I don't really want to change it, just really curious.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well, that's where Donatello and Wally differ, KBLover! lol.

Donatello hates being approached, by anything, especially off leash dogs; He's the type of dog that likes to have the choice whether or not he wants to meet&greet. Given that option he'll get friendly with anyone, but the minute someone approaches him, he becomes extremely defensive and if he's not leashed will skitter away like a bug... I can understand why though, of course, and I prefer people not approaching Donatello anyway. I like watching Donatello approach people, because it shows me that we're making progress, and it shows me that he doesn't think all humans are evil.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm really trying to figure out what the underlying variable is here. Marge has been SO much better on walks. Granted, there are no more fireworks, but she saw at least a few things on our 30 min walk just now that last month, would have scared the crap out of her. 

- weird men running around in field: granted, I moved away from them, but she had zero reaction
- parks department golf cart driving by within 15 feet of us: I was SURE she was going to freak but instead she found something stinky underneath a soccer goal net and proceeded to almost get herself tangled up in it. LOL
- little dogs barking at her: she usually isn't afraid of stuff like this but sometimes she will bark back or at least show heightened interest. I told her "leave it" after one quick glance and she was totally done with them.
- moving truck two houses away from mine: a couple of loud men yelling out to each other.. I had a treat in my hand she she proceeded to make eye contact with me, walk past the commotion and wait for me to throw it for her.

I still haven't taken her back down sidestreets because *I* am afraid to, and I'm certain my tension will be felt by her. So I'm going to wait a little longer.

We _did_ have a little bit of a rough walk last night, for some reason she was totally terrified by a couple of guys about 100 ft away talking at a bus stop.. but she did recover to an appreciable extent, so at least the walk ended well.

In other news, my stupid package containing Marge's blood sample got lost in the mail and never got to California for testing. Not really sure if I want to take her back into the vet and stress her out so badly after she's been doing so well.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I'm really trying to figure out what the underlying variable is here. Marge has been SO much better on walks. Granted, there are no more fireworks, but she saw at least a few things on our 30 min walk just now that last month, would have scared the crap out of her.
> 
> - weird men running around in field: granted, I moved away from them, but she had zero reaction
> - parks department golf cart driving by within 15 feet of us: I was SURE she was going to freak but instead she found something stinky underneath a soccer goal net and proceeded to almost get herself tangled up in it. LOL
> ...



Might be something you just can't detect - dogs are so sensitive to their environment - it could be something unrelated to anything that we humans would consider the environment (people, sounds that we hear, etc)

Are you doing anything differently than you did a month ago? Walking differently? Different demeanor on the walks? Anything you think might have been picked up by her?

Could have just been a "slump". Wally hasn't had a month long regression (knocks wood), but he's had streaks of 3 or 4 days where it looks like we're back at square one. I have no idea what caused it, but when it passes, it's like he was never afraid in the first place. No "side effects" or associating where ever he was with whatever it was. Like a passing "fear phase" that came and went.


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

Good gracious, this thread is an absolute wealth of information!!!! I am going to have to go back and read all of it at some point. I just now read about 4 pages worth and I see I haven't even put a dent in it. 

I figured this was a good place to ask a question: how can you tell if your dog is being reactive out of fear or if it's just aggression? I assume that it has to do with body language, but don't know enough to pick up on those cues.

The reason that I ask... 

my husband and I recently adopted Lita, an american bulldog/boxer mix. She is between 2 and 3 years old, came from a kill shelter to our more local shelter and, unfortunately, all of her history was lost along the way. She does have some scarring on her back legs that may or may not have been the result of a dog fight. However, they did temperament testing at the shelter we got her from and we were told that she was good with dogs/kids/adults. She even had another dog share a run with her while she was there. 

Once we got her home we realized that she did have some behavioral issues. We've had her for just over a month now (I know, that's nothing!), some of the things we've seen... 

Lunging at barking dogs on walks.
Hypervigilance.
Staring down the dogs next door through our fence, over the driveway, and through their fence. 
Pulling on the leash to get away from barking dogs/litter in the streets/once even my husband's shadows. I think that's pretty clearly fear related. But the lunging? I'm not sure. 

At first I thought she was just getting over-excited. Or maybe even that it was just us! We were told that she was good with dogs, maybe she was just reacting to our nervousness??? We did take her to my parent's house for a brief intro to their dog (a Belgian Tervuren, who is still young and VERY high energy). We were able to walk them side-by-side for nearly 45 minutes, which I thought was fantastic. Afterwards, any of his attempts to sniff were meet with lip curls and even a lunge. I know now that this was WAY too fast.  

Luckily, she is fantastic in the house. Very well-mannered. I've already taught her to give up her precious chew toys without a fuss and to sit patiently while I prepare her breakfast and dinner, waiting in one spot until I release her. She has done well with visitors. And even has accepted pets from strangers and children. At this point other dogs are the major issue. Especially barking dogs. We have gotten her to walk past calm dogs with very little reaction at all. 

I have read Feisty Fido and we are definitely going to start teaching "watch". For now, we are avoiding any direct confrontations with other dogs on the street, or even across the street because that sets her off too if they are barking. And I am treating her when we are near enough to dogs behind fences for her to notice them or when we walk past houses with invisible barking dogs. 

I have started looking into trainers and we do want to get her a one-on-one evaluation soon. But I was wondering if all of you could provide any insights? I am eager to learn as much as possible so I can do right by our new adoptee. Thanks!!!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Pulling on the leash to get away from anything is definitely fear.

A large percentage of aggression is rooted in fear, and from the sounds of it I would say that the barking and lunging is a manifestation of fear. (It may also be lack of socialization - sometimes shelters lie or simply misread a shut-down dog to be a socialized, friendly dog.) In my opinion, treating most aggression issues as fear issues usually isn't detrimental, anyway.

Barking dogs is a tough one. It's hard to expect a scared/aggressive/reactive dog to keep its cool when another dog is trying to get at them. I have this issue with my dog to some degree. Continue teaching "watch," teach a "leave it" as well. Another suggestion might be to move her to the side, sit her down, and give her treats as other dogs (barking or not) walk by. You seem to be doing this same thing when walking past other people's houses that have dogs. Make sure she's far enough away so that she won't react. This way, you'll be changing the association AND possibly rewarding her for keeping quiet. 

The incident with the Belgian, to me, reflects a lack of socialization. My dog is fine being in the presence of most dogs but gets jumpy when an over exuberant dog tries to get under her tail. She was not properly socialized and now really detests having her butt sniffed. It's a hard issue to work on. For now, if I were you, I'd keep doing leash walks with the Belgian but with no sniffing sessions afterward. You may start to see her relax and initiate contact with him if she sees him enough times and realizes that he's not a threat.

Dogs DO react to their handlers' nervousness, as I've discovered for myself recently (I always was skeptical of this, but really, I can't believe how in-tune to me my dog is). You can try training her to see leash tension as a good thing.. do it in the house.. have her on leash, slowly lift your hand to make the leash taught (NOT quick like a collar correction), and then click and treat her. I've toyed around with doing this because I, too, tense up when I see something that I know is going to scare my dog.

Contacting a trainer is definitely a good idea, but I think you are very capable of working through a lot of this on your own. Best of luck and feel free to always come back to this thread with questions or progress reports.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Dogs DO react to their handlers' nervousness, as I've discovered for myself recently (I always was skeptical of this, but really, I can't believe how in-tune to me my dog is). You can try training her to see leash tension as a good thing.. do it in the house.. have her on leash, slowly lift your hand to make the leash taught (NOT quick like a collar correction), and then click and treat her. I've toyed around with doing this because I, too, tense up when I see something that I know is going to scare my dog.


And when leash tension is a good thing - you can use it as a method of communication between the two of you.

Like Wally will "pull" on the leash and stop while facing the direction he wants to go in and look back at me. Usually, when he does that, there's something he wants to sniff and, ultimately, pee on, though there are times where he's trying to point something out to me or entice me to chase a cat or possum or something.

The leash is like a two-way communicator between us as much as it is a safety measure.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Might be something you just can't detect - dogs are so sensitive to their environment - it could be something unrelated to anything that we humans would consider the environment (people, sounds that we hear, etc)
> 
> Are you doing anything differently than you did a month ago? Walking differently? Different demeanor on the walks? Anything you think might have been picked up by her?
> 
> Could have just been a "slump". Wally hasn't had a month long regression (knocks wood), but he's had streaks of 3 or 4 days where it looks like we're back at square one. I have no idea what caused it, but when it passes, it's like he was never afraid in the first place. No "side effects" or associating where ever he was with whatever it was. Like a passing "fear phase" that came and went.


Doing anything differently.. yes, absolutely. My #1 new thing is to not hurry Marge away when I see something potentially scary. (Of course, this is within reason.. if I see someone looking like they're about to let their dog off leash or scummy neighborhood kids getting their hands on fireworks, you'd better believe I'm high-tailing it out of there lol.) I've been walking her on her 20' leash a lot, which I believe helps with the leash tension issue. I try to let Marge get her information about anything that sparks her curiosity (and by that I mean makes her concerned) and then keep going. Since the leash is long enough, if she stops to stare at something, I can simply keep walking without having the leash pull on her, and after a couple of seconds she'll catch up and get out in front of me once again.

I don't think the problem is completely gone, but it seems the two of us have clicked a little more and an improvement was made.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Doing anything differently.. yes, absolutely. My #1 new thing is to not hurry Marge away when I see something potentially scary. (Of course, this is within reason.. if I see someone looking like they're about to let their dog off leash or scummy neighborhood kids getting their hands on fireworks, you'd better believe I'm high-tailing it out of there lol.)


LOL @ scummy neighborhood kids

I bet that's part of it right there. I know when I "made" Wally stick around or investigate something scary, eventually he settled down when he saw it again and now it doesn't scare him. 

Not to mention you're exuding a different energy, a different body language, it all matters.




MissMutt said:


> I've been walking her on her 20' leash a lot, which I believe helps with the leash tension issue. I try to let Marge get her information about anything that sparks her curiosity (and by that I mean makes her concerned) and then keep going. Since the leash is long enough, if she stops to stare at something, I can simply keep walking without having the leash pull on her, and after a couple of seconds she'll catch up and get out in front of me once again.


Nice when they can stay under control even with a long leash isn't it? Makes things like this much easier. 

Letting her investigate helps, not to mention the leash stays loose. Nice that you don't even have to give any cues or "extra" signals - probably helps her understand that it's not that big a deal. Her "momma" isn't talking so it must be nothing too special. 



MissMutt said:


> I don't think the problem is completely gone, but it seems the two of us have clicked a little more and an improvement was made.


That's always the start. The problems might never completely disappear, but it sounds like you two are starting to click again and that's always a plus.


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

Thanks so much for the responses, MissMutt and KBLover!!! 

I'm reading as much as I can and trying to figure things out, but it's good to be able to read other people's stories and hear that I'm on the right track. This is the first time that I've had a "project dog," so I guess I'm just worried about doing the wrong thing! 

I will definitely be keeping an eye on this thread.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

LOL KB apparently I spoke too soon - she did a 180 tonight and was super reactive tonight at agility.

- girl wearing a hat.. loves this girl, but, hey, she broke the Marge dress code and wore a hat! Once she realized who it was she settled down
- crazy PWD.. she loved this dog last week, now decided otherwise
- crazy lab.. I kind of anticipated this since I knew he'd be dropping in on the class. She went flying at him while on leash and proceeded to crash through a jump. LOL. Serves her right.
- a man.. self explanatory.. though she was mooching for goodies just a few minutes before (and a few minutes after). Apparently he doesn't look as good when she's staring out a car window at him.

And on the way back, my #%$#[email protected] neighbor approached my car and my dog started growling at him.. he has an aggressive dog so you think he'd know better! then I was playing some attention games and stuff with her and her archnemesis the Rottweiler walked by.. she puffed up and growled as she devoured her cheese.

All this! In one night!

I guess doG has been giving us a break for a while and now decided Marge should have a snarky evening. Bleh.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

cuddlebug910 said:


> This is the first time that I've had a "project dog," so I guess I'm just worried about doing the wrong thing!


Donatello is my first project dog; I rescued him in December of 2008, as sad as it sounds, Donatello will always be my "project dog"... 10 years down the road I'll still be worrying about him... Though hopefully not as bad! 

Let me just say, the only thing you have to worry about with "project dogs", is that the only "_wrong thing_" you could do, is _intentionally_ reinforce those fears... At least that's my opinion... There are so many different methods and techniques out there to help a dog overcome fears, that's almost impossible to pick the wrong one... My example is, Donatello is the type of dog that is somewhat flighty when in a new situation, but my method now is not to "baby" him and take him away from it, I get firm and demand him to "sit" and "stay"; I basically force him to face his fears, which works for him... But if that _didn't_ work and only made him worse, but I continued to do it that way, then I'd be intentionally reinforcing his fears, which would be the "wrong thing to do".

(Am I making sense to anyone but myself?) lol. 

That's just my opinion... I was scared for a couple months myself, after I realized what Donatello's problem(s) was, I was like, _"Oh my Dog, I made a mistake! I'm not going to be able to handle this! I don't know the first thing about a dog with -fears-!"_ But I just stuck with it, I stayed in-tune with Donatello, and we overcame a lot of his fears very quickly and easily, and some of them on our own...

Anyway, I'm babbling, good luck Cuddlebug!


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

Haha, deege, babble away! Like I said, I'm just trying to soak up as much info as possible. 

The dogs I've lived with previously were all owned by my parents. Show dogs. Chinese Shar-pei. They got their "show training" and that was pretty much it. So this is our first child, so to speak.  New mommy nerves, I guess.

It's a lot to learn. And there are so many "techniques" out there. I do feel like we've gotten an idea of what will work for us though. Yes, I do get nervous taking the poor girl on walks, but hopefully that will get better as well. There are good days and bad days, and from what I've read here, it seems like it will probably always be that way. That's okay. My husband and I are definitely prepared to work on it. 

Thanks for the reassurance. It is most appreciated!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> LOL KB apparently I spoke too soon - she did a 180 tonight and was super reactive tonight at agility.
> 
> - girl wearing a hat.. loves this girl, but, hey, she broke the Marge dress code and wore a hat! Once she realized who it was she settled down
> - crazy PWD.. she loved this dog last week, now decided otherwise
> ...


Wow!

Did Marge pee on the wrong side of a tree? Talk about a complete change.

And just to baffle you further, I bet she'll act like an angel again and you'll be here wondering what the heck just happened. Again. 

It's like she's very moody or something 



cuddlebug910 said:


> Haha, deege, babble away! Like I said, I'm just trying to soak up as much info as possible.
> 
> The dogs I've lived with previously were all owned by my parents. Show dogs. Chinese Shar-pei. They got their "show training" and that was pretty much it. So this is our first child, so to speak.  New mommy nerves, I guess.
> 
> ...



You'll get it. Wally is not only the first fearful dog I've worked with, he's the first dog I've EVER worked with, and I don't think he's too much worse for the wear though I bet there were times where he thought, "what the bleedin' heck is this human doing?" especially once I told him to stop running from anything and your shadow.

He looked me like, "You can't be serious." Actually, I got that look a lot


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi all! Haven't been around much lately. Life has been nuts! Glad to see everyone is doing well and we've got some new faces around here.

MissMutt - I actually groaned when I read that they didn't get Marge's blood sample. I couldn't believe it! Seriously - Murphy's Law definitely seems to apply when it comes to our dogs, doesn't it? Have you decided whether you're going to try to do the blood draw again?

I have a question for all of you about how you would handle something. My mother recently adopted a border collie puppy. From what I can tell, this dog came from a reputable breeder. The woman had ever started clicker training the puppies by the time my mom and stepdad picked Bonnie up at 8 weeks! 

Well, my mom loves dogs but the fact is, she's a very lazy dog owner. So not only does she decide to get a puppy - but she gets a border collie puppy! I tried to talk her out of it but to no avail. So then I have been urging her to get Bonnie into a puppy class. Again, to no avail.

I live out of state but my sister, who lives nearby, told me that Bonnie is sweet but is a "scaredy cat." Everything spooks her. I realize that she may be just going through a puppy fear stage but my mother, who is retired, will not take the time to do any type of socialization with her outside the house. 

I can't figure out how to explain to my mother how incredibly important this is or how difficult it is to deal with a dog's "issues" that arise from a lack of socialization at an early age. She's basically had dogs all her life and for some reason, like her children, they pretty much all turned out okay - though with no real effort on her part. So I'm sure she assumes that Bonnie will as well and she doesn't need to do anything different than she's always done. 

It just makes me nuts and I guess I'm looking for ideas on how to say what needs to be said and actually have her hear it. Because if she continues along this path, Bonnie is going to pay the price. And it breaks my heart to think about her ending up locked in the same place so many of our dogs are.

Thanks guys! Any and all advice welcome!


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well, it's slowly, every day, that time of the year is creeping up on me...

<<HOLIDAYS>>

Ugh... As much as I enjoy my family, I'm just not one for big parties, and extended visits... I think it's because I was raised with my mother and little interaction with anyone except her and my sisters, occasionally my grandmother...

I'm looking forward to visiting my family, but I'm not looking forward to it for Donatello... It takes him such a long time to warm up closely to someone, that I'm wondering what this holiday season will bring... 

Living with my mother from December to August of this year, he still had not warmed up to my mother and sisters enough for me to really feel comfortable about it...

Donatello really enjoys my father's presence, but in small doses; I'm not sure where my Grandfather is staying, but Donatello has met him... Just after I rescued Donatello, and before I realized how shy of people he is, my Grandfather was in town and remarked on Donatello's sweet demeanor. That was 11 months ago.

It's quite possible Donatello will remember him, and possibly warm up to him this time, but an Uncle, (whom I have never met, not even seen a picture of, before.) is coming into town as well...

I just have a bad feeling all of this is going to be overwhelming for Donatello, (and me!) I know my family, and their reaction would be, _"C'mon, bring him out, he's not going to hurt nothing,"_ Well... They just don't understand that just because he's in a room, not hurting nothing, doesn't mean he's comfortable in his skin.

I'm looking forward to seeing my family, but I'm not looking forward to being harassed into bringing Donatello up to meet everyone, and I'm not looking forward to seeing Donatello's reaction to all these strange [men] people in the house...

I'm probably being overly-paranoid, but I just wish I had my own place right now, that way I could make the decision to leave Donatello home for these visits...

By the way, my Grandfather will be here in a week... So I'm not just worrying about this in advance. lol.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Been working with Wally outside getting him acclimated to the Halloween yard decorations. 

It's really windy today so they are moving and have streamers and such and it made him on the nervous side. 

So it was clamping down on the running and insisting on control and position. If the decoration isn't too far in the yard, I'll have him do a touch cue on it and of course the Look At That game.

Add on the trees hustling hard over his head and branches scraping on aluminum siding and fence gates banging and it was one of the more noise-filled outings we've had in a while.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Guys.. the Fearful Dog gods were looking out for me..

THEY GOT MARGE'S BLOOD!!!!!!

The lab just e-mailed me to say that it had arrived. I have no bloody (pun intended) clue why it took so long, but it got there. I'm overjoyed!!

*Colorado*, BCs and herding breeds in general are somewhat more prone to fear than are other breeds, so I definitely think it's an issue worth investigating. 

The first thing I thought of was maybe sending your mom a book as a "Welcome home Puppy" gift.. Ian Dunbar or something along those lines. Someone who really emphasizes socialization. Maybe if you find a really good BC book that could help.

Now, I don't know how close you are with your mom and what not, but if you can, I'd just tell her outright.. tell her how you know how hard it can be to live with a fearful dog and that not dealing with it from a young age can have devastating consequences. Even if she doesn't take the dog to classes but at least gets her out to the park, Petsmart, etc.. something definitely needs to be done now.

*Deege* you're not paranoid and my worries are exactly the same as yours. After our incident last month with an unexpected visitor in the house and a lunging Marge I myself have been suffering from some bouts of anxiety over the dog-guest issue because I am SO afraid that someone's going to come when I'm not there to monitor the issue.

Honestly, if you have to, maybe you should lie? Say Donatello had diarrhea or vomiting earlier in the day and you don't want to let him out because he's sick and stressed. Obviously you could probably only do this for one occasion, but maybe if it gets him safely through your biggest holiday gathering, it'd be worth it.

If not, it's probably best to just stand your ground and keep him crated. 

*KB*, I'm not even walking down the side streets where the decorations are because I just can't bring myself to deal with ANOTHER possible trigger. I don't really remember Marge's reaction last year to decorations, but Halloween in general freaks me out as a scaredy dog owner. But great job to you and Wally.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey, guys...I finally got caught up on everyone's posts after being away for a while! I'm trying to cut down on my time on the internet, and there hasn't really been much going on with Brenna lately anyway. It's been rainy here alot, so that has hampered our ability to go on lots of walks and/or do obedience work outside...right when I really need to be getting her out of the house more, too! We didn't have class this week, so nothing to report about that. 

I took her to the vet's last weekend instead, for some socialization in the lobby. It went okay, I guess, but she was far from happy about the situation. She did let people come up and pet her, but that's just because she is so submissive. She was interested in one of the dogs that was there, but he was actually shying away from her (ironically!) She wouldn't take any treats from me, and I could tell from all her body language that she really just wanted to get out of there and back into the car. (Funny how she loves riding in the car, even though it always takes her places she doesn't want to go!) She was actually so nervous when we first got into the lobby that she started whining a little. This is only the second time I have ever heard her whine, which probably sounds strange to most dog owners, but it's true! She's gotten a little more vocal lately, but she is still a very, very quiet doggie! So, I guess we had to start somewhere, and we'll just have to keep going back every now and then. I was toying with the idea of going to PetCo, but if she can't handle just sitting around the vet's lobby in a calm manner, I don't know if that would fly.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> *Deege* you're not paranoid and my worries are exactly the same as yours. After our incident last month with an unexpected visitor in the house and a lunging Marge I myself have been suffering from some bouts of anxiety over the dog-guest issue because I am SO afraid that someone's going to come when I'm not there to monitor the issue.
> 
> Honestly, if you have to, maybe you should lie? Say Donatello had diarrhea or vomiting earlier in the day and you don't want to let him out because he's sick and stressed. Obviously you could probably only do this for one occasion, but maybe if it gets him safely through your biggest holiday gathering, it'd be worth it.
> 
> If not, it's probably best to just stand your ground and keep him crated.


Well, once again I'm glad I'm not alone in feeling this way! 

A couple weeks ago, an Aunt of mine I haven't seen in a few years was in town, and we were all going to go out to my Uncle's house and visit... There was going to be 6 people there, (including myself)... I _really_ wanted to take Donatello so he could meet my Uncle, but unfortunately, I was just too damned chicken to do it... I was just too concerned all the excitement, chit-chat, and laughter would be too much for Donatello to handle... That and my Uncle is such a "neat-freak" in a way, that I didn't want Donatello to accidentally leave a "whoopsie" on his carpet. lol.

But, now, I feel even worse because I don't think I'll have the luxury of keeping Donatello home...

I completely agree with you MissMutt, and will probably do just what you suggested!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

How's everyone doing? 

Not too much to report here. She had a few REALLY reactive/jittery couple of days, and I think it has to do with a recent jump in protein. I added some grain-free, higher-protein food to her current kibble, and the change in her behavior seems to have coincided with the food change. So I'm limiting the amount of the new food I'm giving and putting her back on her old food.

She had a zoomy session out in the field.. nice to see, she hasn't been that happy on a walk in a really long time.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I spent a little bit of the walk trying to teach Wally how to be nice to dogs behind a fence.

He always wanted to growl and bark in their face. Everytime he did that, I pulled him away from the interaction and made him sit and settle down.

Had to do this about 5 times before he got it - just sniff and be curious and exchange scents with the friendly dog. When he was just sniffing and being curious, I petted him softly and stroked him.

He kept being quiet and calm. And then we kept walking after he got to sniff and stuff. 

Just trying to get him to be more stable and calm when faced with dogs that go for the nose-to-nose greeting. Most dogs seem to do that and I don't want him barking in their faces or what not. 

After the impromptu training session, he was all energetic and excited the whole walk. 

MM, I know about zoomies in the field. He just took off in to a zoom session one day, just running and running. Luckily, I had planned to play with him with his toy and I squeaked and riled him up bad (I'm bad. Bad KB, bad! LOL) and he REALLY got all fierce and into it. 

Someone was watching and they were shocked by how fierce his growl sounds and how big his bark was. 

Amazing the volume a 12 lb dog can produce.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jonas and I met another fearful doxie this afternoon. She was WAY more anxious/scared than Jonas could ever be. She peed and bared her teeth just when I knelt down, I hadn't even reached for her. Her mom and I got to talking, and exchanged phone numbers. I recommended the books The Cautious Canine and Click to Calm for her, and she said she would pick them up and call me as soon as she finished reading them and talk to our behaviorist.  I hope she calls. I told her that even though Jonas isn't perfect, he was a wreck a year ago just like her girl and she could come a long way.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I find those encounters really help me see how far Marge has come. Of course, I don't want to see any dog suffer, but when I see a dog scared out of its mind worse than Marge is or even was, I can kind of say to myself, "I'm damn lucky that she isn't so bad."


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Yeah, this dog made me realize that even though it's been long and frustrating to work with Jonas, how much better he is now is worth it. I'm glad she was nice and really receptive to the idea. She just got the dog from a cousin who did not want her anymore because she was.. well, nasty, and no one else would take her. I'm hoping we can help.


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

Update:

Been working with Lita now, trying to get her comfortable with barking dogs. Luckily, we have 2 neighbor dogs that are very helpful with the training.  We have opportunities to work on this in our own backyard. There had been previous instances of her lunging at the fence when the 2 neighbor dogs started up barking. She hasn't done that in the last week.... but then she hasn't seen them too much this week either and my husband or I have always been out with her. 

During our walks, my husband and I have been carefully treating as we approach dogs that are barking either in houses or behind fences. She has been doing great with this and will now walk past without trying to hide/lunge/run away. Well, she still pulls a bit, but it's getting better. We stop treating as we retreat away from the dog. A couple times in the last couple of days she has even started looking at us when she hears a dog barking like "hey, where's my treat???" Awesome! We are still working on the watch command. She doesn't have it down well enough that we use it one walks yet, but I can see it working quite well in the future. 

We did have one "run-in" over the weekend. Ducks. Ducks! She walked past them just fine when they were quietly swimming in the stream (and didn't spot the cat stalking them either), unfortunately, once the cat pounced the ducks took off--there was flying and quacking and a Lita dog jumping about. I backed off to the point where she calmed down and we were eventually able to walk past again once the ducks had settled. That was certainly interesting. Probably not a situation that will arise very often. 

I'm glad to know that there aren't very many Halloween decorations that seem to bother her. She did get scared by my husband's shadow again though.  Slowly, slowly. 

I also got my hands on a copy of Cautious K9 and it's great! Highly recommend. We'll keep at it!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I spent a little bit of the walk trying to teach Wally how to be nice to dogs behind a fence.
> 
> He always wanted to growl and bark in their face. Everytime he did that, I pulled him away from the interaction and made him sit and settle down.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Marge is a face greeter and tries to stop all attempts of dogs trying to sniff her butt. So it's kind of the opposite problem than you have.

I love seeing our scaredy dogs happy. I wish I trusted Marge offleash.. zoomies are hard to run when they've only got the 40' diameter that a 20' leash allows. Looking into buying a 50 ft one now that it's cold and there will be no one in the field.



cuddlebug910 said:


> Update:
> 
> Been working with Lita now, trying to get her comfortable with barking dogs. Luckily, we have 2 neighbor dogs that are very helpful with the training.  We have opportunities to work on this in our own backyard. There had been previous instances of her lunging at the fence when the 2 neighbor dogs started up barking. She hasn't done that in the last week.... but then she hasn't seen them too much this week either and my husband or I have always been out with her.
> 
> ...


You are doing great! I love that she's defaulting to offering eye contact when something bothers her. My Marge does that sometimes and I really think it's an awesome thing to have in your arsenal of behaviors. 

Was she wanting to chase the ducks, or did she get startled by them?


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> You are doing great! I love that she's defaulting to offering eye contact when something bothers her. My Marge does that sometimes and I really think it's an awesome thing to have in your arsenal of behaviors.
> 
> Was she wanting to chase the ducks, or did she get startled by them?


I think it was a little bit of both! Like a "Oh my goodness, what is THAT?!" as they were flying over and quacking. And then, "Lemme get 'em!" when they had landed. We do have geese in the area now, but she has been mostly ignoring them. I'll be curious to see what happens once they are nesting and trying to guard their groups with honks and hisses.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Doesn't sound like a big deal to me. My dog has her moments where she goes bounding after birds, too. But squirrels are her #1 chase object


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally seems to prefer rabbits because they are fast.

He likes squirrels too, but I think he's learned that squirrels run up trees while rabbits give him a real foot race


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Wally seems to prefer rabbits because they are fast.
> 
> He likes squirrels too, but I think he's learned that squirrels run up trees while rabbits give him a real foot race


That's true - the few times Marge has seen a rabbit on the move she has gone bonkers!

Sigh. We had a kinda bad walk today. It was probably my fault. Marge was asking for dinner for like 2 hours before the time she was due to be fed, so I decided to take a bunch of kibble with me and take her on a walk. I don't know if maybe my annoyed-ness was transferred down to her (she would NOT. STOP. BEGGING!) or something, but she saw a girl get into a car and drive away and that kind of set the stage. 

She started pulling to get across the street to go walk in the field rather than along the road, but I didn't want to do that yet so I didn't give in. There weren't very scary things out there - I stopped to chat with a woman who lives in my neighborhood but asked her to not touch my dog - and there were some kids playing football across the street further down in the field, but that was it.

I got really frustrated and I'm sure that transferred to her, so she shut down completely once we crossed the street and were in the busier part of the field.

I waited a couple of minutes and just stood in one place with her but she wasn't having that so I decided to keep walking. I did something new with her.. she wasn't really wanting to take treats out of my hands but would take them if I threw them (she gets like this a lot when she's on that borderline of panic) so I kept clicking, and throwing the treat so she had to jump up like an alligator to get it. 

We walked past people playing soccer, I kept up with the c/t, and she settled down enough to want to sniff and investigate. 

On the way back we had to pass two screaming kids (who promptly exclaimed "WATCH OUT THERE'S A HUGE DOG" - didn't know 40 lbs was huge) and she did okay with that, and she also did okay with sitting at the curb waiting to cross back to go home. 

Since it was then feeding time, I asked the pivotal phrase "are you hungry" before we went inside, so at least the walk ended well.

It's got me thinking again though about a new supplement. Someone on the fearful dog list suggested 5-HTP to me. 5-HTP is was "comes after" tryptophan in the metabolism of tryptophan and is turned into serotonin, a neurotransmitter and calming agent (psych nerd alert lol) There are significant risks in the case of overdose and there are more possible side effects than there would be with something more benign, like melatonin, which I use now.

In other news I got Marge's bloodwork back and there is no sign of thyroid problems. Some levels were high in her CBC (complete blood count) but it's most likely due to the fact that the sample took forever to get to the lab. That's what the vet said, anyway. I plan on calling my vet this week to discuss the results with him, see what he things, and maybe bring up this 5-HTP thing.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Sigh. We had a kinda bad walk today. It was probably my fault. Marge was asking for dinner for like 2 hours before the time she was due to be fed, so I decided to take a bunch of kibble with me and take her on a walk. I don't know if maybe my annoyed-ness was transferred down to her (she would NOT. STOP. BEGGING!) or something, but she saw a girl get into a car and drive away and that kind of set the stage.


Sounds like she's got Wally's foot fetish 

Wally will stare at me while walking if he smells food in my pocket. Heh. He looks forward just to not run into things LOL




MissMutt said:


> She started pulling to get across the street to go walk in the field rather than along the road, but I didn't want to do that yet so I didn't give in. There weren't very scary things out there - I stopped to chat with a woman who lives in my neighborhood but asked her to not touch my dog - and there were some kids playing football across the street further down in the field, but that was it.
> 
> I got really frustrated and I'm sure that transferred to her, so she shut down completely once we crossed the street and were in the busier part of the field.


Doesn't sound too bad. I take it the pulling was the main offense here? I know you mentioned she doesn't follow/take directions when she's got her focus on something, but is there any cues you could give her? Maybe put her into a sit the instant she gets her ears perked and such?




MissMutt said:


> I waited a couple of minutes and just stood in one place with her but she wasn't having that so I decided to keep walking. I did something new with her.. she wasn't really wanting to take treats out of my hands but would take them if I threw them (she gets like this a lot when she's on that borderline of panic) so I kept clicking, and throwing the treat so she had to jump up like an alligator to get it.
> 
> We walked past people playing soccer, I kept up with the c/t, and she settled down enough to want to sniff and investigate.


That's good  




MissMutt said:


> On the way back we had to pass two screaming kids (who promptly exclaimed "WATCH OUT THERE'S A HUGE DOG" - didn't know 40 lbs was huge) and she did okay with that, and she also did okay with sitting at the curb waiting to cross back to go home.


LOL. Kids. They have no sense of scale  Wally's still a puppy by their standards and the kids there think 40 lbs is huge. Well at least she is kinda long and tall (looking at her picture) so I guess that's part of it.

Glad to hear she did well dealing with going past the kids and sitting at the curb.


I don't think that walk was too bad. If Wally had Marge's personality and gave me that kind of walk, I'd probably give him a B. The pulling and shutting down, I wouldn't like, but she seemed to recover well with the treat games and settled down even near the busy field.

She had a good walk after that, imo.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I was a bit sad last month when I saw that my favorite dog trainer at the Humane Society was leaving. Both of my dogs have taken one class from her. 

I just got an e-mail invitation to her new training facility. Instead of offering five or six classes, she now offers twenty different types. One is called Shy Dogs, and she's offering it beginning mid-November.



> This class is limited to four socially shy dogs. We will address some basic manners, but will focus mostly on how to help your dog become more comfortable in new situations as well as confidence building. Class is six weeks.


I wrote asking for more info about what the dogs do in the class. The cost is $125, which is a little more than $20 per session. I’m definitely interested, but we’ll see what info I get about the class and whether I can get the money together before November.

Has anyone taken a class like this? If so, how did it go?


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

I just got home from obedience class with Brenna and had to share! She did soooo much better tonight! I was really pleased with the whole evening. First of all, we got there very early, before there were any other dogs or people in the room. So that gave me a chance to get her stuff set up and settled without alot of other distractions around. Then I was able to just let her walk around with me as the others arrived, giving her the time to sniff and get used to the room again since we didn't have class last week. 

Once we started our actual training exercises, I was able to get Brenna's attention more than normal. It may be partly because I had hot dogs...and she hadn't had any hot dogs at home for about a week. I'm considering saving them for class and outtings, since they are more of a "high-value" treat for her. Although she didn't want to give me sits or downs at first, she did eventually start doing them, and even stayed in a down position by my side for several minutes while other dogs were walking around us doing an exercise. Later, I was able to work with her a little on her mat, where she did a few sit-stays and down-stays for me as I walked back and forth about 6 ft. away from her. Most impressive of all, though, was that she walked through all the obstacles our trainer set up at the end of class, even the ladder and hoop! I was thrilled with this, especially since she was not just going through them but actually focussing on me leading her through. 

I know I'm bragging alot, but you guys understand. It was like a break through night for us. Oh, and I forgot to mention that during a rest period I think she almost fell asleep on her mat! I was petting her and got her so relaxed that she started leaning back and closing her eyes alot. It was priceless! 

So, now my challenge is to be more disciplined in working with her at home, and to get her out in public more often. I'm afraid that I've gotten a bit lazy the last week or so, and our not-so-pleasant social visit at the vet's was a bit discouraging for me. But now I'm motivated again...just have to keep it up! 

Thanks for reading all this rambling...I just have to tell somebody how proud I am, and I know you guys will understand better than anyone else!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Sounds like she's got Wally's foot fetish
> 
> Wally will stare at me while walking if he smells food in my pocket. Heh. He looks forward just to not run into things LOL
> 
> ...





> Has anyone taken a class like this? If so, how did it go?


I haven't, but I do wish they were offered. Even though Marge is at the point where she does okay in "regular" classes, I would not hesitate to take a class like this alongside the classes I'm doing now.

As long as they're not doing anything stupid like yanking the dogs on the neck for being scared or flooding them with social situations (which I can't imagine they'd be doing) I bet it's a worthwhile class to take.



> Once we started our actual training exercises, I was able to get Brenna's attention more than normal. It may be partly because I had hot dogs...and she hadn't had any hot dogs at home for about a week. I'm considering saving them for class and outtings, since they are more of a "high-value" treat for her.


I say do it! I try to do that with Marge and cheese. I try to only use cheese at classes or in super stressful situations. Sounds like a great breakthrough.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CocoaCream said:


> Once we started our actual training exercises, I was able to get Brenna's attention more than normal. It may be partly because I had hot dogs...and she hadn't had any hot dogs at home for about a week. I'm considering saving them for class and outtings, since they are more of a "high-value" treat for her.


To increase the value, starve her before class and/or train her when she's HUNGRY. Not just "oh I wouldn't mind some food" hungry, I mean "feed me...NOWZ!!11!!!" hungry.

Then just about anything you have will be "high-value" and the stuff that's like hot dogs or deli meat will be ZOMG-to-die-for value. 

Treat valuing is something I learned to do with Wally real fast and it makes whatever he did to fill his "starving, total empty, I'm about to waste away" belly twice as impacting. 

And twice as hard to stop - but hey. Trade offs and all that. I'd rather learn to switch him off than have to jump off a bridge to switch him on.

Nothing socialized him and got him to buy into Look-At-That faster than starving him for 16 hours then go for a walk, getting his metabolism all up and energy expended and then "Oh! Look! A kid!" C/T - Kids started looking really good to him!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Nothing socialized him and got him to buy into Look-At-That faster than starving him for 16 hours then go for a walk, getting his metabolism all up and energy expended and then "Oh! Look! A kid!" C/T - Kids started looking really good to him!


Ha, ha! Yeah, kids started to look good enough to eat!  

I do think it helps that Brenna's class is about the same time she'd usually be eating dinner, so she is pretty hungry by that time. I haven't tried intentionally making sure she is hungry for other training/socialization times, though. I'll have to remember that next time I want to take her out somewhere and see if it works for her.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CocoaCream said:


> Ha, ha! Yeah, kids started to look good enough to eat!


It might explain why he sees humans as potential food dispensers  People think its cute when he sniffs their hands. I'm thinking "he's probably just seeing what you last ate and if you have any left".

Nevermind if they are carrying a bag (he thinks there's food inside because of how I got him to stop being scared of them) or *gasp* just came back from the grocery store with a trunk full of smells. One family just watched him (and me too, in mild embarrassment, fortunately they were nice about it and thought it was cute) stand there and sniff sniff sniff the air for about 30 seconds. They just opened the trunk and all those smells must have come flying out.


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## ShadowSky (Aug 6, 2008)

I've been reading this thread for a while. First time posting though, and it isn't about one of my dogs, but I had an encounter with the dog belonging to my Grandma's neighbor yesterday, and am looking for thoughts.

Her neighbors have had this dog since... sometimes around July, that I know of, maybe a while before. She's a beautiful dog, definitely an ACD mix of some sort. Her name is Bella. They let her run(sigh...) and she's only let inside- into the garage- at night from what my Grandma can tell. You never see anyone out with her unless the kids there are on their snow machines or four wheelers. I hadn't approached her before now, but then my grandma mentioned that whenever anyone tried to pet her, she cowered and ran. It’s not as if they try to approach her to pet her, she’ll follow them around. My grandma said that it was as though someone had beaten her.

So, curious and concerned, I went outside just to see, since the dog was out in front of the house. I had expected her to cower and move away of course, but not quite to the extent of what I saw.

She spotted me and moved further away, sniffing at the pavement in the driveway across the street, walking parallel to me. I crouched for a while, and she watched me, then when she was about 40 feet away paused and just watched me. Seeing she wouldn’t come any closer the way I was, I stood and turned my back to her, walking down the street. When I moved away she sniffed where I had been standing. She wears tags so I was able to hear her get closer to me as I walked. Near the end of the street, when she was maybe 6 feet away from me, I crouched down again and shifted my hand out, careful not to look at her.

What astonishes me is the way she moved. She obviously WANTED to come closer to me; she moved forward on her own, but it was very slow, and she nearly bent in half as though to guard her side, head turned. Her tail was tucked tightly the entire time.This first round she stayed a fair distance away, so I got up. I moved too fast, and she startled and cowered. I quickly turned and started walking with my back to her again. I did this twice more, and she seemed to grow a little more confident each time. I stopped in the driveway and crouched down, and waited. This time she approached enough to sniff my hand, not touching it. She disengaged and moved a little ways to walk in an arc, sniffing the ground before coming back and sniffing again. She then sat a little ways away and peered at me. I talked to her for a moment, then stood up very carefully so as not to startle her, and stood still again. She walked over and sniffed my shoe and pants leg, then again moved a little ways away to watch me. I had to go inside then, but she followed me to the edge of the garage and watched me go.

I wish I could have taken a video of how she moved, but really watching it just broke my heart. I didn’t try to pet her, because I didn’t want to mess up what little trust she seemed to be placing in me. I think I might start doing this when I’m over at Grandma’s(quite often) and see her out… I want to help her so badly. 

I have no evidence that she has been abused other than the way she acts. She's in good physical condition, and since she's allowed to run loose it could have been anyone within blocks of where she actually lives that hurt her, if anyone. So calling them in isn't an option. What I'd like to know is if I continued to go out when I see her and can go out, and work on building her trust, would that potentially help her?

I just figured this would be the best place to ask, as you guys are the experts on fearful dogs  I just feel really bad seeing a dog that scared, even though she isn't mine.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

She could just have little exposure to people and that could be the cause of her fear. Her owners might never actually handle her, just put out food, and she has no idea how to interact with a person, good or bad. I would definitely get some really yummy treats, sit a distance she's comfortable with, and just start tossing. No talking, no looking at her, no reaching for her, nothing. She might have to learn from scratch that people can mean really good things for her and aren't going to do any thing she doesn't like. Even then she might only end up coming to you, unless her owners become proactive, too.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I agree with TWAB.

And please do become this dog's friend. Show her that not all people are scary or mean her harm. 

She's fearful or at least very wary/suspicious, but she was so polite with it. Such obvious calming signals, trying to communicate with you. I'm glad she got the courage to come up to you.

That actually gives you a leg up. A lot of fearful dogs have to be coaxed to that point. If she came to you and took your scent, that's a nice opening to take advantage of.

Frequent peaceful/rewarding exposure would indeed build her trust and comfort level with you. I believe it would help her with people in general over time, especially once you get her trust. She'll then look to you and then you can help her even further.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Huge brag tonight..

I just walked Marge around the block for the first time in at least 2 or 3 months. You guys know how big of a deal that is for her.

She was nervous (sniffed/peed on everything lol), but she stayed under threshold most of the time. There was only maybe or 1 or 2 times where she didnt want to take treats. 

I ended the walk by taking her over to sniff the trees in the field. 

So incredibly happy about this. I'm happy I worked up the guts to take her around the block and I'm happy she didn't freak out about anything.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

That's GREAT!

Nice job, both of you. 

You think the peeing on things was nerves? I thought that was normal dog behavior 

Way to go! A+ for Marge and you too MM for getting the courage to take her. I think a lot of times our fearful dogs get a boost just from that. It's almost like they know when you are taking them to places that have been avoided before.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Thank you!

I do think the peeing was nerves. I mean, she does it on most walks (she marks like a male lol.. even lifts her leg) but I notice that when she's feeling nervous she always does it too.. almost like emptying her bladder relaxes her lol

Yeah, there was no one out, so hopefully there will be a couple of more quiet nights where I can take her around again to boost her back up.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally got SCARED of a police dog tonight.

That and something just seemed "off" and I think he and I both picked up on it. But he was willing ride it out with me until we were turning down an intersection and suddenly this canine unit drove by and the dog was all like WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF from nowhere and poor Wally almost jumped out of his skin. Tail went from way up to tucked in within like 3 seconds 

It was the meanest sounding bark/growl I've ever heard from a dog in person. 

He did recover relatively quickly and was fine the rest of the night, although he was a bit on edge.

Hopefully, this will just be something that rolls off of him. Something he'll write off to a fluke.

It's a bit frustrating because earlier in the evening a big friendly rottweiler came running up, calming signals and all, and Wally was all play growling and and trying to entice him to a game or at least to join in the barking he was doing.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sucks that you can't control all their experiences with dogs, eh?

I wonder what the police dog was barking at. Not cool for us fearful dog owners for him to be having his head out the window making a fuss, but I guess there's nothing we can do to change that lol.

Does Wally have any sound sensitivities? I wonder if you played lots of videos of barking dogs if you could help him just get sensitized to the sound of dogs.. although I feel like you've done this already and Wally has no response.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Wally got SCARED of a police dog tonight.
> 
> That and something just seemed "off" and I think he and I both picked up on it. But he was willing ride it out with me until we were turning down an intersection and suddenly this canine unit drove by and the dog was all like WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF from nowhere and poor Wally almost jumped out of his skin. Tail went from way up to tucked in within like 3 seconds
> 
> ...


Wow... That really sucks.  Was the Police Dog barking _at_ Wally, or something else, because who knows, maybe that PD is DA and was trained by incompetent handlers?? 

Either way, I'm sure everyone on this thread will agree with me when I say this... Until the day Donatello passes away, I'll forever be worrying about him relapsing... I mean that as in, I'm always worrying that we'll encounter something new that will just freak him out, and he'll react like he used to last year... I'm not sure who has it worse when you look at it like that, us or the dogs... The dogs don't understand it, but sometimes we can't help them... So who feels worse?

It's a f'ed-up world...

But there is always hope on the horizon.... 


> It's a bit frustrating because earlier in the evening a big friendly rottweiler came running up, calming signals and all, and Wally was all play growling and and trying to entice him to a game or at least to join in the barking he was doing.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Great news about Marge, MM!! I am feeling so outta the loop. Not having my own PC is really starting to drive me batty. 

Tiberius is doing good here. We had a our first snow fall already, and I was able to let him and Casanova outside off leash to play. Most times if I am just taking Tiberius out to potty its off leash, since he stays right with me. If he does get scared, he runs and hides on the porch. He recently has decided to bark when I come home. He stands by the front door (I come in the back door after work) and wags his tail and barks and does that big husky smile. A couple problems lately though.

1) He refuses to ask to go out to poo. He will ask to go out to urinate but not poo. My mom is going to wring his neck if he poops on her living room floor again.
2) He paces most of the night. It used to be he only paced until I went to bed, but the last week or so he has spent almost all night pacing the house. I just set his bed and pillow up in my room at Mom's so I am hoping this stops the pacing.

Any ideas/suggestions would be helpful. Thanks.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Wow, that's really strange Dunixi... He's still being house-trained though right? (Or is this a relapse?)

Either way I would try to get him on a schedule. You mentioned that he'll go to the door and "ask" to go pee... Well, maybe you should try to put him on a schedule so until he gets the hang of both peeing and pooping outside; It'll eliminate him from asking to go out for the time being, but maybe once he realizes that he has to do his business outside you can revert back to letting him ask again...

When I got Donatello, we stayed on a strict schedule 7 days a week for almost three months or more... Every day he went out three times a day, and once I was positive that he grasped the notion he had to pee/poo outside I relaxed the schedule a bit and just waited for his infamous <stare> to alert me that he had to conduct business outside. lol.

I could be off base and maybe that's not the suggestion you're looking for, but I hope you can solve this problem soon. For your mother's peace-of-mind.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

I dont have any major fear issues, but Faith is scared of duct tape, the vacuum, and hates the rain. She was an outdoor puppy when we got her (got her before she was 10w old),which might account for the rain and as far as the tape and vac i havent a clue where those fears are from.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

deege39 said:


> Wow, that's really strange Dunixi... He's still being house-trained though right? (Or is this a relapse?)
> 
> Either way I would try to get him on a schedule. You mentioned that he'll go to the door and "ask" to go pee... Well, maybe you should try to put him on a schedule so until he gets the hang of both peeing and pooping outside; It'll eliminate him from asking to go out for the time being, but maybe once he realizes that he has to do his business outside you can revert back to letting him ask again...
> 
> ...


I had him fully house broke (or almost so) before my boyfriend came home. I think it is either a relapse or he is getting used to being inside all the time again. He was outdoors almost all summer (except when its really wet). He has the oddest way of asking to go out...he will walk over to my bed and put both his front feet on it. Otherwise he stays off my bed. lol

I am going to try and put him back on a schedule...if I can get my family to help follow it while I'm at work.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Does Wally have any sound sensitivities? I wonder if you played lots of videos of barking dogs if you could help him just get sensitized to the sound of dogs.. although I feel like you've done this already and Wally has no response.


Thunder used to bother him, but just walking in the storms solved that. ("See, it's okay, we're just walking like normal like we always do."). Fireworks can get to him almost like they do Marge (he gets visibly anxious and hyper-vigilant). 

The last time I tried the dog barking, he had no reaction either way. Now he'll bark back and show major interest (so much as to climb up on my desk on his own and sniff my monitor and/or the computer speakers). 

I could maybe find some sounds of fierce dog barking - I think it was the kind of barking, i.e. not just a "HEY I SEE YOU!" or "HEY LET'S PLAY!" or "HEY YOU. YEAH, YOU. YOU SUCK!" trash talk barking that will get him saying "Nuh uh! You suck worse!"

This sounded like a "If I could, I'd KILL you." type of barking, and I think that freaked him out. The only other time he heard barking like that was when I had to protect him from dog attacks, and I think it might have brought up that memory.

Fortunately, he was unaffected today, though a sudden sound surprised him and worried him (some guy yelling while working on his truck just as we walked by) *sigh* But he did bounce back so I think it might just put him a little on edge for a while.

Oh and that dog was barking at us. He might have just been wound up because he was hyped up for whatever they were called out for, but we got his attention (since we were moving I presume, he didn't start up until we crossed the intersection).


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> I dont have any major fear issues, but Faith is scared of duct tape, the vacuum, and hates the rain. She was an outdoor puppy when we got her (got her before she was 10w old),which might account for the rain and as far as the tape and vac i havent a clue where those fears are from.


She's afraid of the sound of duct tape, correct?

I'd probably sit there with a handful of treats, and click/treat her for touching it, pawing it, etc, and eventually progress to YOU touching it (click and treat), YOU holding it (click and treat), YOU gently starting to peel it (click and treat).

The vacuum's a little tougher, because I don't know if there's really a way to do it gradually.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> Wow... That really sucks.  Was the Police Dog barking _at_ Wally, or something else, because who knows, maybe that PD is DA and was trained by incompetent handlers??


Definitely at Wally and/or I. 

I was even changing our route (which is why I crossed at the intersection I did) because I heard the bark on down the street (that's how loud it was) and thought I could make it across. Turns out, the police car came down the street just as I was crossing and then when it came up to the intersection, the dog went off on us.



deege39 said:


> Either way, I'm sure everyone on this thread will agree with me when I say this... Until the day Donatello passes away, I'll forever be worrying about him relapsing... I mean that as in, I'm always worrying that we'll encounter something new that will just freak him out, and he'll react like he used to last year... I'm not sure who has it worse when you look at it like that, us or the dogs... The dogs don't understand it, but sometimes we can't help them... So who feels worse?



Yeah, I'm always on the look out for re-lapses, though I'm far less concerned now than when I was seeing the first signs of progress. Still, something like that which he has few experiences with and all of them bad (that barking always led to attacks/potential attacks - three of them - since having Wally), it has me watching him more closely and I'll "go back" a little in the training process if need be to head the relapse off at the pass if I can.

I always think the dog has it worse. He doesn't understand what's going on, he just knows he's _scared_ and it's really impossible for us to explain it to him, so he's just left with his fear and confusion. 

The best we can do is try to change the behavior chain, and he still doesn't understand, and the process is hard on him because he has to face his fear - and everything in his instinct probably doesn't understand that either. 

When I think about that and the process he's allowing himself to be subjected too, whatever unpleasantness I have to go through just vanishes from my mind. 

It's like he's saying "I know it's going to unpleasant. I know it's going to suck. I know I'm going to be scared, and I don't understand why I can't run or fight back, but I will do what you ask of me and trust that you won't let me get hurt."

I can't possibly think of anything I have to go through when I think about it like that.

Probably why socialization is probably the most important thing ever. It just prevents all of this unpleasantness for the dog.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> She's afraid of the sound of duct tape, correct?
> 
> I'd probably sit there with a handful of treats, and click/treat her for touching it, pawing it, etc, and eventually progress to YOU touching it (click and treat), YOU holding it (click and treat), YOU gently starting to peel it (click and treat).
> 
> The vacuum's a little tougher, because I don't know if there's really a way to do it gradually.


You know how you have to stretch the tape to get it off the role, then cut it? Well when you stretch it, she goes crazy. I cant even stretch it quietly, she somehow hears it. 
As far as the vacuum, she barks at first then runs away, but comes back and tries to chase me for a bit.


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## Leroy&Lucy'sMom (Mar 2, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> She's afraid of the sound of duct tape, correct?
> 
> I'd probably sit there with a handful of treats, and click/treat her for touching it, pawing it, etc, and eventually progress to YOU touching it (click and treat), YOU holding it (click and treat), YOU gently starting to peel it (click and treat).
> 
> The vacuum's a little tougher, because I don't know if there's really a way to do it gradually.


It would be the same idea, but instead of using the vacuum, just turn it on, then off after a few seconds while someone else holds the leash and click/treats (or you could tether her to you if you don't have another helping hand)... slowly add the amount of time the vacuum is turned on, then progress to actually using the vacuum around the room small amount at a time... it might take weeks or months.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> I dont have any major fear issues, but Faith is scared of duct tape, the vacuum, and hates the rain. She was an outdoor puppy when we got her (got her before she was 10w old),which might account for the rain and as far as the tape and vac i havent a clue where those fears are from.


Probably just hates the sound and thinks it's trying to get her, especially in the case of the vacuum.

I would maybe try turning the vac on but at a distance. Say have Faith on one end of the hall and the vac running but on the other end of the hall.

See if she'll take treats by c/t whenever she looks/pays attention to the vac.

Do this for a while, praise her, give her a jackpot, then go turn the vac off.

Eventually, repeat this moving closer, gradually to the vac. 

See if that doesn't help her any?

What I do with Wally is make him touch it, paw it, etc, but Faith might need a more gradual approach.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Leroy&Lucy'sMom said:


> It would be the same idea, but instead of using the vacuum, just turn it on, then off after a few seconds while someone else holds the leash and click/treats (or you could tether her to you if you don't have another helping hand)... slowly add the amount of time the vacuum is turned on, then progress to actually using the vacuum around the room small amount at a time... it might take weeks or months.


I guess what I was trying to say is that there's no way to control the noise - I mean, having her stand on the opposite end of a hallway might help, but the reduction in sound might not be enough. Whereas with the duct tape, you could pull it reaaaallly slow to dampen the noise  I suppose it's worth a shot, though, either way.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I guess what I was trying to say is that there's no way to control the noise - I mean, having her stand on the opposite end of a hallway might help, but the reduction in sound might not be enough. Whereas with the duct tape, you could pull it reaaaallly slow to dampen the noise  I suppose it's worth a shot, though, either way.



I don't know - maybe it's my poor duct tape skills, but everytime I pull tape - I get a sound.

And since dogs hear SO well, I don't think I could "trick" the dog into thinking it's less sound - just a shorter duration.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Dunixi said:


> I am going to try and put him back on a schedule...if I can get my family to help follow it while I'm at work.


Well, I would approach your family and persuade them by using the power of suggestion... Remind them that Ti won't have anymore "poo" accidents if everyone could just pitch in and "help remind" him he has to do that outside...  Do you think they'll go for it?



KBLover said:


> I can't possibly think of anything I have to go through when I think about it like that.


I was referring to that moment, when the dog's ears go back, his eyes widen, and he starts crouching... For me, with Donatello, I feel terrible... I think, _My poor Man, I can't help him... He's scared, terrified, and can't even begin to understand why... I should be able to help him, I should be able to protect him and shield him... But why can't I?_

On a side note, I took Donatello to work with me the other night... One of the ladies at worked begged me to bring him in and I agreed, but I would show up almost an hour early, that way if Donatello freaks out I have time to remove him take him home and get him settled in his crate...

Would you believe it, the minute we pulled up in the parking lot Donatello went crazy! The good-crazy, the "OMG.We're.At.The.Dog.Park."-crazy! I have no idea why he got excited like that, he's never been there before and he doesn't go crazy like that unless he knows he's somewhere he's going to have fun...

Anyway, I took him inside and he met all my co-workers, who just instantly drooled over him, and unlike any past experiences, Donatello willingly walked right up, tail wagging and received hearty head pats and back scratches. 

First I put him in with the small dogs and I kept walking around the perimeter, keeping Donatello moving... He follows me, and with him being new the other tiny dogs wanted a sniff... So with me walking it kept all of them moving, there wasn't really a chance for anyone to get a cheap-shot in. 

I stopped after a few minutes and Donatello let the dogs rush him, and swamp him with sniffs... Donatello seemed to be above his level of tolerance, which was more then I expected... I expected him to freak out because of the big dogs on the other side of the Small Play Area. 

Well, then it was time for me to work... I stepped into the Large Play Area and started meeting and greeting the dogs... I "pretended" to ignore Donatello; I kept a eye good on him without him really realizing it, just in-case he might think I was nervous... (Which I was, I was worried something terrible would happen and Donatello would hurt someone.) Anyway, he stood on the side of the fence closest to where I was at; Almost half of the big dogs crowded the fence to sniff him, and he didn't even budge! He didn't shy away, didn't raise his hackles, he even let out a few tail wags!

After a couple hours of following me along the fence, Donatello sat down. (He was relaxed enough to sit!) That's huge! If he freaks out, he'll usually stand like a statue, shaking himself to pieces...

That's when all the big dogs rushed to the other side of the play area; Someone came through the back door, and that's when I heard Donatello whining. It was the cutest thing... It wasn't a sad pitiful whine it was his exasperated whine, because he seems to forget how to "bark". So I walk over to the fence and he got super excited... Whined even louder and started looking up at me, then at the gate, then back to me... (Quite a few small dogs actually do run with the big dogs, that's fine there, the only rule is the small dog has to learn to keep up.) I asked Donatello, _"You wanna run with the big dogs?"_ and as if he understood me he started barking!  Consecutively! I was so thrilled to hear him bark! Wagging his tail like it was going to come off I slipped him in the gate... 

It was almost five minutes before the other dogs noticed the new-guy.  lol. Labs, Labs-mixes, Border-Collies, you name it there was a crowd. A few of the moronic-Lab-mixes even tried enticing Donatello into a game of "chase" or something, and Donatello politely declined. He tolerated this strange crowd of dogs, until the big dogs grew bored and walked off...

I was beeming with pride! Donatello followed me where-ever I went, he hung back when it was time to fight the crowd so someone could leave, and he even snarled and snapped a few times when a couple puppies crossed the line...

That was when I forgot about the Pit-Bulls. (Dumb move, I know.) But...

A sweet-heart named Samson, I nicknamed Eeyore, (because he mopes around and looks so depressed) is a big sweetheart and is like my second shadow... Well, Samson comes up to sniff Donatello. I was cringing with fear because any time before this Donatello has thrown himself at a Pit-Bull with the obvious desire to kill... Donatello growled, showed a tooth, but then backed up and watched him from behind my leg. Samson just sniffed, then looked up at me wanting a head-scratch... Which I gave into... Donatello still kept his distance but he didn't act up in the least. (Thank Dogness!)

We were only at work for four hours... When it was closing time, Donatello went in a separate pen with the owners dogs, who oddly enough, took to Donatello almost immediately; Donatello sat down next to a German Shepherd named Heidi, and sat there patiently... Then I let him out to follow me around. He stood beside me, just looking around while I washed some dishes, then to go get mop-water, then to the break-room where he sniffed the floor for crumbs...

Then it was time to leave and I even got him to "sit-handsome" in-front of a co-worker and her dog! 

I swear to goodness, it was like second-nature. I can't even begin to explain how thrilled I am, but how stunned. Donatello didn't react in the least! And I'll tell you, when we came home he *crashed*, he wouldn't even come out of my room when I left the door open to check my email! 

The next day I worked a small morning shift, and I took Donatello... I had a hard time waking him up so early, lol. But he went, and once again had a blast! (I kept him in the small dog pen the entire time because there were way too many big dogs, and I was worried he'd get stepped on...) He looks like such a shrimp next to a Bernese Mountain Dog, two Dobermans, and three Golden Labs! I even caught him laying down in a corner, where on the other side of the fence another dog was curled up...

I think this has been a wonderful experience for him, but this is one of those things that I was almost _certain_ would send him into a relapse, when in-fact it was a direct opposite!


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

I tried it a bit ago. I had the tape, she kind of looked at me like "whats that". Then i pulled it slowly, not really a reaction. Then i pulled it like normal and there she went- barking and running. I then put the tape back on the roll and set the tape down in front of her- she sniffed it and walked away. I then tried it differently a 2nd time. I laid it in front of her 1st, she sniffed it. Then i ripped it both ways- same reactions as before, then laid it down again, same reaction. 

To my knowledge she has never had a negative encounter with duct tape (other tapes shes fine with). However, we are moving and using duct tape so its hard to pack and her freak out.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> I was referring to that moment, when the dog's ears go back, his eyes widen, and he starts crouching... For me, with Donatello, I feel terrible... I think, _My poor Man, I can't help him... He's scared, terrified, and can't even begin to understand why... I should be able to help him, I should be able to protect him and shield him... But why can't I?_


Still think it's worse for him. Sure we feel helpless and powerless sometimes (or a lot of times) on how to really protect him from his fears, but imagine what his mind and body are going through, the stress of being scared/terrified, sometimes to the point of not even being able to enjoy what he usually does (which is sad for us to watch to be sure  )

I think it's worse for the dog - but of course it doesn't feel good for us either.




deege39 said:


> I think this has been a wonderful experience for him, but this is one of those things that I was almost _certain_ would send him into a relapse, when in-fact it was a direct opposite!



How great! 

I love it when things like this happen! That pleasant surprise of how great he takes it and not only tolerates the events, he ends up enjoying every minute.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Oh, I agree KBLover, I know you're right, the dogs do have it worse... I swear, for all the times Donatello comes barreling out of my room because of a "bug", it makes me want to _Terminex _the entire insect species.  I do have to say, for those people that get exasperated because their dog is <too happy>, <too hyper>, <loves everyone too much>... I'd like to ask them to walk just one day in the shoes of someone like MissMutt, I guarantee they wouldn't take their rambunctious goof-ball for granted afterwards! 

It's hard work, not just the normal physical expectations of owning a dog, but the mental and emotional upsets, too...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

LOL well, I'm so famous for my up-and-down moods that uncoincidentally coincide (lol tongue twister much) with Marge's ups-and-downs... but they can take a walk in ANY of our shoes and see what it's like on the other side of dog ownership!

-----
(automerged post)

It's really late and I should go to sleep, so I just wanted to share some new happenings in MargeLand with you guys. Copied from my blog:



> L-Theanine is an amino acid found in many animal calming products, such as the famous (and expensive) Composure Liquid. It is used in humans as well as an anti-stress, anti-anxiety supplement. It is marketed specifically for pets in chewable tablets under the name Anxitane. However, as with melatonin, because the dosage was exactly the same and there were no outside active ingredients, I opted for the much cheaper human tablet version.
> 
> Marge has now been on 25 mg twice a day (about half the suggested dosage for her size) for about a week. Since these things are, admittedly, significantly less studied than true medications are, I wanted to play it safe with a smaller dose.
> 
> ...


Thought this might be an interesting bit of info for any of you who might be going back and forth on a decision to add medication or a supplement to help out your dog. No side effects, not a true medication, only dangerous in extreme overdose... sounds like a win-win to me if it turns out that it's working.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

OMG! That sounds wonderful, MissMutt!

I don't think you're just "seeing" things; Because I'll add on the days I used to give Donatello his Anti-Stress tablets, he had the same reaction Marge had to his usual reactives... He wasn't as jumpy, his first reaction wasn't flight, and he just generally seemed all-around relaxed.

I think that sometimes, the fears almost become like a "habit" to the dog; better yet, it's like training... For so long the dog is used to being afraid of something, so in the future, even if they've calmed down, and have a revamped personality, they see their old "reactive" and think _"I need to be afraid. I don't know why, but this used to scare me, I need to be scared now,"_ I'd like to think that sometimes, medicine and natural herbs/supplements help subdue those instincts? to be afraid... 

That's probably not what it is at all, but it sounds good. 

Congratulations, MM, and I hope Marge continues to head on her path of righteousness!


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

I love the good updates with Marge. Gives me hope for my little girl. We're getting her thyroid tested next month.

On a side note. My Max that is my scaredy boy, walked up to 5 people he'd never met before and asked to be pet! I had a jewelry party at my house, and there were some ppl that had never come to my house, so they'd never met Max. I was so proud of him. The guests trickled in slowly, about 20 minutes apart, I think that helped a lot. He greeted each one, and he even reared up so my friend's grandmother could pet him. He was enjoying himself. 

He spent the rest of the party asleep in my sister's lap, again a plus. I'm so glad he's doing better.

My girl still makes me crazy. She's so anxious, but she reacts, she doesn't shut down. She'll bark, or growl, at anything that she sees as a threat to her, and they're never the same thing. She has calmed down in the house a lot, so that's a plus.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> I think that sometimes, the fears almost become like a "habit" to the dog; better yet, it's like training... For so long the dog is used to being afraid of something, so in the future, even if they've calmed down, and have a revamped personality, they see their old "reactive" and think _"I need to be afraid. I don't know why, but this used to scare me, I need to be scared now,"_ I'd like to think that sometimes, medicine and natural herbs/supplements help subdue those instincts? to be afraid...


I agree - it's like the first reaction is just "RUN" whenever they see something new. I know that was like that with Wally. He would run away like he was scared, but not really be _scared_ scared (if that makes sense). It was just like first reaction - get away.

That's why my first task with Wally was to short circuit that reaction as much as possible. To change him from "React-then-read" to "Read-then-react". That way, if he _does_ become scared, then at least I can start seeing what the situation is, and then I can start being more proactive with helping him.

For some, cutting that chain starts inside the brain, chemically.

Of course, it makes me wonder, why some dogs need supplements and such to help them while other fearful dogs don't? Is it just the degree of fear they are having - or is it some other factors?


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

The holidays are coming, and I’ve been thinking about something Cupid does that I’d like to work on. A little background: normally my home is pretty quiet. I occasionally have a friend or family over, but that’s maybe once a week, so the boys don’t usually get a lot of guests. I tend to do more socialization with them by taking them out. They love going to see my parents and a particular friend, and we go other places as well. 

Anyway, I had a Halloween party at my house on Saturday. Cupid tends to get very barky when people come over. Usually, I have the guest throw the ball for him to fetch a few times. It’s the perfect “icebreaker” for him, because anyone who will throw a ball for him is his friend.  So we did that, and it worked pretty well. Sometimes people will keep throwing the ball. If not, I distract him with a toy or treat (the boys love a new rolling treat dispenser I save for times when company is over). 

OK, so now we get to the issue. Cupid does fine in groups until things change. For instance, at the Halloween party, my brother-in-law left the room with the baby, and when he came back in with her, Cupid barked again. At Christmastime last year he did the same thing—he would bark when people would return to the living room after going to the bathroom, getting something from the kitchen, etc. I think it startles him, and he always reacts to being startled by barking as if to say, “You don’t scare me,” but he really is scared.

I have explained what I think is going on to my family, but I’m sure it’s disconcerting to have a dog barking at you rather loudly just for going to the bathroom. I also don’t want my sister or brother-in-law to worry that he would do anything to their baby. I can get him to calm down again (usually through distraction), but it’s always a struggle. Does anyone else experience this? How do you work on it?



> 2) He paces most of the night. It used to be he only paced until I went to bed, but the last week or so he has spent almost all night pacing the house. I just set his bed and pillow up in my room at Mom's so I am hoping this stops the pacing.


Could there be a medical reason for this? Or did you recently move and maybe he's trying to get his bearings?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Of course, it makes me wonder, why some dogs need supplements and such to help them while other fearful dogs don't? Is it just the degree of fear they are having - or is it some other factors?


There are a lot of reason I think. Just like in human psychological disorders, the etiology for certain things is different in every person. For the sake of similarity, let's use anxiety disorders..

- one person may be prone biologically (genetically?) to developing an anxiety disorder.
- one person may grow up in a stressful and neglectful environment, which could lead to the development of later anxiety.
- one person can have a normal life, but respond badly to one negative experience, and thus develop an anxiety disorder.

Some of these people might respond better to therapy; others may need medication to get their brain chemistry just right. Still others may need both for optimal affects (just like when they say that meds shouldn't be used without behavior mod in dogs)

I don't want to get too preachy here, but, over all, I believe that the combination of these things in different amounts is what contributes to something like anxiety. Genetic vs. learned combine themselves in different amounts to contribute. For full-blown disorders in humans, there is something called the diathesis-stress model. It basically says that different combinations of genetic predisposition (diathesis) and environmental influence (stress) push the person past that "critical point," so to speak, when they develop a disorder. I'm trying to find a good diagram of it, but I can't seem to locate one.

Maybe for dogs like Marge, the genetic component is more pronounced than it is in Wally. Maybe you're better and more diligent at behavior modification than I am. So I definitely think it's more than just the severity, because SO many people can say that their dog is recovered from extreme fear, but they've never used any meds/supplements.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> There are a lot of reason I think. Just like in human psychological disorders, the etiology for certain things is different in every person. For the sake of similarity, let's use anxiety disorders..
> 
> - one person may be prone biologically (genetically?) to developing an anxiety disorder.
> - one person may grow up in a stressful and neglectful environment, which could lead to the development of later anxiety.
> ...



You make a lot of sense. I didn't realize there was the possibility of a genetic trait for anxiety or fear (either in dogs or humans). And it makes sense the same things that go wrong in human's brain chemistry can in dogs as well. Not sure why I didn't think of that.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the second and third situations you mention and in the case of dogs at least, the lack of socialization/ample life experiences in early puppyhood (which could be argued as neglectful).

And I had never heard of the diathesis-stress model until I read your post. That was some really interesting information. I learned something (well a lot of somethings from this post) today, thanks 

I know I'm heavily into the behavioral side of him and that could be a mitigating factor. I just hope I can continue keeping that factor in there for his own sanity (mine is too far gone LOL)


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Basically, KB, I feel like we are dog psychologists (totally putting Cesar Milan to shame ). Human psychologists do things in all different ways; hell, I just did a research paper on the treatment of child OCD (which happens to be an anxiety disorder) and you'd be amazed at the different techniques used.. drugs, therapy, drugs and therapy combined, behavioral techniques, etc..

It's the same thing for us. If 10 fearful-dog-savvy people were presented with the case of the same dog, I bet you'd get 10 at least slightly different variations of how to treat the problem. 

And it's funny, because the diathesis-stress model really does make sense.. say you have two dogs, each subjected to the same neglect, but of different breeds, from different mothers, etc. More than likely, one dog will respond much worse than the other. Think about all the dogs on those Animal Rescue shows and stuff who are still wagging their tails and licking the officers despite being emaciated, injured, etc.. then think about the dogs who present the same physical signs of abuse that shake and shiver and try to bite. If the situations (environment) are the same, then it seems likely that genes provide the difference.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well, MM, I agree with you... In another thread, everyone is arguing over a dog suffering extreme SA, and whether or not to use an anti-bark collar on it...

I don't care if there's a person out there with every degree, a proven dog-psychologist, every dog and every situation is different, which means- What doesn't work for most, might work for some... And I see no harm in _trying_.

I was harassed to death by a few friends for even _considering_ taking Donatello to work with me... When they found out I did, regardless that it went perfectly, they still harassed me. _"How can you be sure he's not traumatized? Hmmm?_ _"He was probably thanking his lucky stars you took him home, and now he's praying you won't take him back..."_ 

Honestly, with every dog, with/out fear, get two people on the same situation and they could come up with a dozen different suggestions, and a dozen different reasons you shouldn't use the other's. 

Dogs are so much like children, that none of us can agree on the same method of care.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Everyone who is medicating, tell me every thing. 

I hadn't posted in a while because Jonas was doing, well, just fine. He was almost normal. We kept working, but in the last two weeks every thing has just gone down the drain and he has not had a single good day. I honestly think it's because of Magpie being in the house (he just has not accepted her, and I don't think he ever will). We're still on the fence about keeping her, but she has a months worth of medication to finish before she's going anywhere. 
Every walk we've been on he's lunged and went crazy at other dogs and people, which hasn't happened in months. He's very clingy with me again, and snaps at the other dogs for coming too close. We had some friends over, he went bonkers for a bit, and then actually curled up in his crate and went to sleep. Then ONE more person came and he went nuts all night long. So bad that I was convinced he was going to stroke out. I had never heard him bark like he was before. I crated him and put him upstairs away from every one, and he was still shrieking. I pretty much had to kick every one out. 

We have decided to make a vet appointment and get him medicated. I don't want to have him always on medication, but I want to figure out a way I can get him calm and be able to work with him. He's going over his threshold too quickly and I fear he's going to hurt himself.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

So sorry to hear this, TWAB.

Take a look at this article to get you started. It has descriptions of just about every psychoactive medication:
http://www.dogaware.com/wdjanxiety.html

From your description, it sounds like your best bets are either an SSRI (like Prozac) or a TCA (like ClomiCalm or amytriptyline) which ARE daily, and usually used for 2-3 months before it's determined whether they should be continued or not. I don't really have any info about situational stuff like Xanax being used for fear-aggression, but it's possible I guess.

5-HTP is the supplement I was considering using before I put Marge on L-Theanine. 5-HTP is supposedly very appropriate for fear-based aggression.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks, I'll scour that site for hours. I know he is not happy the way he is and medication is no longer something we "might" try. He just had such a good summer.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Thanks, I'll scour that site for hours. I know he is not happy the way he is and medication is no longer something we "might" try. He just had such a good summer.


That's how I felt when Marge started to decline this summer. She had just been SO good, and then something happens and everything goes to pieces. I feel you.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

> I hadn't posted in a while because Jonas was doing, well, just fine. He was almost normal. We kept working, but in the last two weeks every thing has just gone down the drain and he has not had a single good day. I honestly think it's because of Magpie being in the house (he just has not accepted her, and I don't think he ever will). We're still on the fence about keeping her, but she has a months worth of medication to finish before she's going anywhere.


Neither of my dogs are on medication, but I wanted to say I'm sorry to hear Jonas is doing so poorly. I hope medication can help him get away from the threshold.

Any ideas why Jonas accepts your other dogs but not Magpie? Is it her behavior, or that she was the last dog in?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Groan. Please let me be wrong about tomorrow.

I took Marge over to her favorite dog's house to play for a little. Too bad all she did was stay by the fence and watch the world go by in a state of fear.

Then I took her in the field and the fact that kids were screaming (God forbid anyone else be out in the field when Marge is there) dampened that too.

It's NOT fair. I hate when I whine about this but I'm SO sick of the ups and the downs, the worrying, the wondering. I'm so envious of all of the people who got their dog as a puppy and got to socialize it to the sights and sounds of the normal world. 

Tomorrow's the run-through at the trial site.. and Sunday is the trial. Please let me be wrong, but I'm just so scared that it's all going to go to hell. 

Can't we EVER have fun?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> That's how I felt when Marge started to decline this summer. She had just been SO good, and then something happens and everything goes to pieces. I feel you.


Things are a mess. He is shaking half the time. All he does is climb into my lap and shake. I almost thought "Well, hopefully this is just a medical problem.." and had him checked for every thing they could think of. Just trying to fool myself. Hopefully we can find SOMETHING that will help him.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Things are a mess. He is shaking half the time. All he does is climb into my lap and shake. I almost thought "Well, hopefully this is just a medical problem.." and had him checked for every thing they could think of. Just trying to fool myself. Hopefully we can find SOMETHING that will help him.


I'm sure you can. He has shown you that he can rebound in the past, though I agree with you, from all the way over here this does sound like a pretty big development. Is it possible to limit his exposure to Magpie, to maybe determine if she is part of the issue? Maybe see how he is with limited contact with her for about a week and take note of differences in his behavioral responses?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Thracian said:


> Neither of my dogs are on medication, but I wanted to say I'm sorry to hear Jonas is doing so poorly. I hope medication can help him get away from the threshold.
> 
> Any ideas why Jonas accepts your other dogs but not Magpie? Is it her behavior, or that she was the last dog in?


I don't know what it is about Magpie. He had been just fine with our other fosters (he bit one in the face hard enough to draw blood and did NOT like him, but he was extremely hyper and didn't respect doggy boundaries) and other dogs, but since Magpie has been here he has been completely nasty towards her, and basically all dogs except Jack and Smalls. He bites her pretty much every time she comes near him, and she is an incredibly well behaved, friendly dog. She gets along with every dog she meets. 
Which is funny, she's so great, but my dogs are being total butts about her being here. They ignore her for the most part, won't play with her, and Smalls attacked her badly enough that I had to step in and wrench her off Magpie. She's attacked her a few times, but this time she didn't stop.



MissMutt said:


> I'm sure you can. He has shown you that he can rebound in the past, though I agree with you, from all the way over here this does sound like a pretty big development. Is it possible to limit his exposure to Magpie, to maybe determine if she is part of the issue? Maybe see how he is with limited contact with her for about a week and take note of differences in his behavioral responses?


My boyfriend takes Magpie to work with him every day, so she's not in the house for about 8-9 hours, and he seems OK. I'm certain her being here pushed him over the edge, but I honestly couldn't tell you why. She's lovely. She doesn't even go near him because she KNOWS he doesn't want her to. But since we brought her back he's been pooping/peeing in the house and acting out.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I'm so envious of all of the people who got their dog as a puppy and got to socialize it to the sights and sounds of the normal world.


Me too - of course Wally, technically, was a puppy and one that was scared.

I hope the weekend goes well for Wally. Someone's decoration blew over on the sidewalk and he was nervous about it. 

Had to stop him near it, then under it and have him act calmly. He did it and was fine the rest of the walk - just nervous/scared at that point.

So I'll be walking him that way as much as possible. Maybe I'm cruel - but repeated exposures have worked for him all the time so no need to change now.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm afraid I'll have to join this thread . I'd been working with Hallie and she was really improving. She got hit by a car 6 weeks ago right when she was doing sooo well around men and strangers, per vet's orders she had to be confined to a crate for 6 weeks. No walks, no strange people, no new smells and sights..no anything that we'd based our training on. Everything she'd learned and was doing so well with she seems to have forgot. It really set us back. She's barking at strollers, men who aren't even making eye contact, and even showing strange behavior around cars (which I can understand). It's back to square one for me and Hallie.  Every since she was a puppy she's been a very very timid dog and we were finally getting over that timidness and she was actually having fun when men were around..I didn't have to turn around and walk the other way when I saw a guy walking down the street..now she's back to where she began, almost as if we never worked on it.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey guys, hope I haven't missed to much over the last several days. It's been raining here for what seems like weeks, so I'm starting to go a bit stir-crazy being couped up in the house all day. Poor Brenna doesn't seem too happy about being stuck inside either, but she sure doesn't like the rain. And even more than that, she hates it when I have to wipe off her muddy feet when we come inside. 

We had an okay class this week. Brenna still won't look at me or obey any commands once we get outside of her "comfort zone" of about a 6 ft. circle around her mat. She did okay with the little obstacle course our instructor set up this week, although she wanted nothing to do with the barrel/tunnel. The most beneficial part of our class this week was actually a variation on one of the CGC exercises. The instructor had us all stand/sit with our dogs in a big circle, and she came around and held each dog's leash while each of us took turns walking around and briefly greeting all the other dogs. It took a long time to get through the exercise, so between each turn, I did a few little commands with Brenna and walked her around our space. Then I would return her to a sit to wait for the next person to come up and greet her. She did great with this! She curiously sniffed everyone's hands, shoes, pants, etc. and let everyone pet her on the head. Several people offered her treats, but she just politely sniffed them then looked away.  When it was my turn to leave her with the instructor, I told her to stay, and walked away. When I came back, Brenna was happily munching bits of hot dog from the instructors hand. This was a big deal because she had tried giving Bren treats many times before, but to no avail. It was good to see that my dog could actually be contented with someone else watching her for a few minutes, as long as she is in a familiar place. And actually, it was encouraging for me to see that some of the other people's "outgoing" dogs react more negatively to their owners walking away than my "fearful" dog did! 

Oh, and then to end the night on a great note, after I packed up Brenna's things, I told her to stay in her spot while I put my chair away on the other side of the room. And she did! She didn't move a bit, just stood there watching me until I came back. I was one proud doggie mamma at that moment! 

The next day I decided to take Brenna to Petco for the first time. I've been putting it off for some time, and I finally decided that I just had to jump in and take her. She was very shakey at first, so I took her right to the back corner of the store and just sat with her for a bit, trying to reassure her. But she was pacing so much that I decided she might be happier walking around the store and checking things out instead. So we did...and of course, did some shopping in the process.  When we went to the checkout line, a couple of ladies were in front of us, so it was a good time for Brenna to get used to just standing quietly beside me while I talk to people. She did well, and let one of them pet her quickly. As soon as we were out the door, though, she wanted to jet across the parking lot and get in the car. 

The thing I find most interesting in all these interactions we've had with new people over the last week is that they all comment on how "calm" and "well behaved" Brenna is. I think most people assume that because she is not all jumpy and excited that it is because she is a well trained dog. But in actuality, she is so shy and undersocialized that she hardly even wants people to pet her at all. And I often wish that she would be more excited and playful, at least with me and my husband. Maybe someday we'll get there...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CocoaCream said:


> I think most people assume that because she is not all jumpy and excited that it is because she is a well trained dog. But in actuality, she is so shy and undersocialized that she hardly even wants people to pet her at all. And I often wish that she would be more excited and playful, at least with me and my husband. Maybe someday we'll get there...


IMO, a dog that can tolerate stressful situations without reacting or shutting down IS behaving very well and it took good training to get her there.

They might not mean it that way, but it's true in it's own way. I've long sense stopped looking at "normal" dogs for how Wally should act. He's not "normal" and never will be, but if he can stay with me, be aware without over threshold, and stay calm (if alert), then that's good behavior. Granted, I'm perfectly fine if Wally never goes tongue-hanging, panting happy up to people or stays in alert/wary mode when in new situations (part of a Coton's traits sometimes). As long as he's not fear-aggressing, overly shy/insecure, or trying to bolt at every opportunity, I'm cool - and it seems he is too.

The fact Brenna isn't all warmed up to people, sitting near two strange people in a new, stimulating place, and she's still staying put and not reacting - good training and good behavior. Nothing less, imo.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

> The next day I decided to take Brenna to Petco for the first time. I've been putting it off for some time, and I finally decided that I just had to jump in and take her. She was very shakey at first, so I took her right to the back corner of the store and just sat with her for a bit, trying to reassure her. But she was pacing so much that I decided she might be happier walking around the store and checking things out instead. So we did...and of course, did some shopping in the process. When we went to the checkout line, a couple of ladies were in front of us, so it was a good time for Brenna to get used to just standing quietly beside me while I talk to people. She did well, and let one of them pet her quickly. As soon as we were out the door, though, she wanted to jet across the parking lot and get in the car.


I can relate. Petco and Petsmart are tough places for Cupid. He tucks his tail quite low and even walks closer to the ground, if you know what I mean. And if we're anywhere near a door, he pulls quite hard in hopes that he can leave ASAP.

We went to Petsmart last week for the Halloween party, and he was too anxious even to take treats from the employee. I took a small cup of doggy ice cream she had available and fed it to him in a quieter part of the store. He seemed to enjoy it, so I'm hoping that might help create a semi-positive reaction. I'm not really counting on it, though. It's going to take time.



> Everything she'd learned and was doing so well with she seems to have forgot. It really set us back. She's barking at strollers, men who aren't even making eye contact, and even showing strange behavior around cars (which I can understand). It's back to square one for me and Hallie.


I'm sorry Hallie has had such a setback. Hopefully as you continue to work with her, she will remember things a little, and maybe it won't take as long to make progress. Fingers crossed.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Hey everyone, I wanted to post an update...

I cannot seem to find the time to keep up with Donatello's Blog as much.  

Anyway... Donatello is doing fantastic! Ever since I've taken him to doggy-daycare... He's been acting different. It's hard to explain, but he seems to have an inner-peace now... I'm not sure if it's he's relieved to know how I become so stinky, or if it's because he actually enjoys doggy-daycare.

Either way, driving down the road, he'll sit in the seat next to me, all slumped against the back, and he'll just watch me... Or he'll climb in my lap, slouch against me and stick his nose out the window... Whenever I look at him now, and we make eye contact, I don't see a dog "wondering what we're doing next", I see a dog "content and happy with whatever we do"... It's hard to explain, but I just know I see a difference.

He's also become very vocal at work... It takes him quite a bit to warm up, but once he starts barking with another dog they don't stop!  And I don't have the heart to make them... He even started getting a little vocal here at the house, last night he growled because he heard something outside my window... He's growled before, and he's barked plenty of times, but for some reason the behavior never sticks.

He was so wore out today that after I got out of the shower he was laying on the bed, I leaned down to take off his collar and he didn't even lift his head. lol. Seriously, he didn't hold his head down but he sure as Hell refused to lift up. lol. Him and I snuggle up real close at night because it gets chilly, and I swear, sometimes, he'll just take his head and nudge it just a little bit closer until he falls asleep, like he's making sure he's touching me... Like I'm his security blanket... Ain't that cute?


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

KBLover said:


> IMO, a dog that can tolerate stressful situations without reacting or shutting down IS behaving very well and it took good training to get her there.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Well, that's the thing. She was shutting down quite a bit, as far as not making any eye contact with me or actually listening to me...she was just following me around b/c I had her on a short leash. But unless people are fairly dog-savvy, they don't take her body language into account. Her tail was tucked very tightly at first, although she did seem to relax that when we were walking around. And she was definitely looking for a way of escape when we were standing in the checkout line. I guess I didn't mention that she did pull me around in a little circle a couple of times, until I had the presence of mind to give her less leash so that she had to stand right next to me. After that, she did stay still to wait, but I guess I can always tell when she is uncomfortable, just because of her facial expressions and body language. She is just not a reactive dog, (her fear manifests itself in submission instead) so I guess that is what most people key in on right away.
> ...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally wouldn't be a snuggler - he'd be too busy taking the opportunity to lick my face.

Well - I guess he is a snuggler in the sense that he'll sit up against my leg when I sit in my chair because he wants to sleep in my lap (of course, when he climbs up - he has to lick my face first )

He does touch me a lot when he sits - maybe it's the same kind of thing as what Donatello is doing.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hallie said:


> I'm afraid I'll have to join this thread . I'd been working with Hallie and she was really improving. She got hit by a car 6 weeks ago right when she was doing sooo well around men and strangers, per vet's orders she had to be confined to a crate for 6 weeks. No walks, no strange people, no new smells and sights..no anything that we'd based our training on. Everything she'd learned and was doing so well with she seems to have forgot. It really set us back. She's barking at strollers, men who aren't even making eye contact, and even showing strange behavior around cars (which I can understand). It's back to square one for me and Hallie. Every since she was a puppy she's been a very very timid dog and we were finally getting over that timidness and she was actually having fun when men were around..I didn't have to turn around and walk the other way when I saw a guy walking down the street..now she's back to where she began, almost as if we never worked on it.


Aw.  Well, hey, think of the 6 week resting time as the price you needed to pay to get her better so that you could work on these things again.

Take it slow. Honestly, I'd consider using a supplement on her. You may want to look into Melatonin or L-Theanine, both of which you can get over the counter and give any time you're going for a walk or something. It will help the recovery process, I think. Just use lots of cookies.. go slow.. and she will be back to her old self soon.

*RE: Petco,* I agree with you guys.. it's a very hard place for Marge, too. She had a solid 6-8 months where she really enjoyed going, but ever since her latest setback over the summer, it hasn't been much fun for her. 

If it wasn't so far away, I'd be sitting in the parking lot with her a couple of times a week, clicking and treating her for watching the world go by. It's really only the front of the store that presents a problem for us.. once we get to the back, all she wants to do is vacuum up stray kibble pieces.. not ideal, and she's certainly far from 100% comfortable, but it gets her by.



deege39 said:


> Anyway... Donatello is doing fantastic! Ever since I've taken him to doggy-daycare... He's been acting different. It's hard to explain, but he seems to have an inner-peace now... I'm not sure if it's he's relieved to know how I become so stinky, or if it's because he actually enjoys doggy-daycare.


I'm going to bet its the socialization and play. Most of the dogs there, I'd gather, must be pretty good in the social department if they're able to play in a large pack of dogs. The fact that he's moving around gets him exercise and releases feel-good endorphins into his bloodstream. It's good physically and mentally for him, and it makes him happier! How nice that you can have this experience with him.



blueget said:


> I love to hear all the good stories of all the braver fraidy dogs.


Me too. I love reading all of the stories and hearing about all the hard work that people put in to their scared dogs. It's scary to wonder what would have happened to dogs like Marge, Brenna, Wally, Cupid and Donnie (and JONAS!!!) had they wound up in the wrong hands.

===========

I have an update of sorts.. I went on a rant the other day about how this weekend was going to be terrible.. turns out the first day of our agility weekend was actually very good. Once again, my darn dog shuts me up and proves me wrong. I love her LOL. Marge was able to run agility at a place she had only been at one time before, with strange dogs/people around (though not too many) and with no treats. I was very impressed with how she ahndled everything.

I was also impressed by the fact that the environment wasn't perfect and there was a good deal of noise - lawn mowers, park vehicles, dog whining, people setting up tents - and she was STILL able to run as well as she did. It gives me hope that agility still is her escape from her fears, and maybe, just maybe, she'll be okay at the trial tomorrow. (Good vibes please!)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> If it wasn't so far away, I'd be sitting in the parking lot with her a couple of times a week, clicking and treating her for watching the world go by. It's really only the front of the store that presents a problem for us.. once we get to the back, all she wants to do is vacuum up stray kibble pieces.. not ideal, and she's certainly far from 100% comfortable, but it gets her by.


Same here. Doesn't help the front is where you go to get to the groomer's at the Petco here and sometimes there's dogs in the "lobby" so he's sometimes gets "greeted" by a dog right out of the gate. 

He's good at hiding LOL. He acts like he's trying to climb my leg. It feels funny.

But once we get past that part, he's much more interested in all the smells. He especially loves the rawhide aisle and of course the kibble section (GEE WONDER WHY - food loving dog) Now, he loves the self-serve treats table - he actually stood up and tried to see over it on his own. He's gotten a taste of them, and I brought some home to train with (he LOVES them) so maybe that smell can help him as well. The scent of those treats in the store and "living with them" (the scent is all over the house) might help him. It's unorthodox, but it might work. This dog is weird. I don't say "that probably won't work" anymore with him. LOL


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

How was Halloween for everyone?

Wally was like "easy peasy". The only ghouls and goblins he showed interest in were the Werewolf costumes (I guess he thought they were big dogs LOL).

Oh and of course, he wanted to follow people around that had bags. This dog used to be SCARED to death of bags. Now he follows them since food sometimes "magically" appears out of them.

Decorations were no problem, even the more animated/haunted house sounding ones. He would look and be alert, but no sign of fear, lower tail, or anything. He spent more time "sharing pee" (the pup would pee, then Wally would pee about 5 inches away on his side of the fence. It was...interesting) with his new friend, the pup that whines at him to come over to sniff noses with him, which in turn has him whining at me to take him over.

If he could have chocolate, I'd give him some. He had to settle for a healthy portion of kibble and some lemon pound cake for dessert


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Hallie went trick or treating with her 8 year old! She did suprisingly well I was a little anxious at first and she was too but she just trotted right along (dressed for the occasion of course). We did go pretty early and there weren't many people out yet but Hallie got to walk up to a few doors. Most of the houses had very reactive dogs behind a fence or door and that didn't even phase Hallie, I mean this girl barely glanced in their direction!  She did fantastic. She did bark a few times but she didn't act scared and seemed to be enjoying it. No one approached her and barely anyone was out walking, I believe that's why she did so well. 



> I'm so envious of all of the people who got their dog as a puppy and got to socialize it to the sights and sounds of the normal world.


I wish that was as easy as it sounds! I've had Hallie since she was 6 weeks old and I did socialize her but probably due to her breeding she was always a timid dog. I could be wrong but I know there's a period (4 or 6 months old) where a dog is most vulnerable to kind of relapsing, it's a very sensitive period. I could have the timing wrong but I know up until about 5 months Hallie hadn't displayed any fear towards people and she even approached people, at 6 months she started to become nervous when men approached her or any adult stranger...at 8 months she started the odd behavior of wagging her tail, barking, and running away from any man who approached her. Does anyone know what that behavior could signal? It's not like an extreme fearful response it's like she thinks it's a game but she's nervous and trying to run away at the same time. She would run away barking and then come back displaying the same behavior.

MissMutt- I believe supplements could help Hallie but I'm really really iffy about giving her things like that. What are the benefits? and are there any side effects?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hallie, supplements usually have no side effects, at least in my experience.

I'm currently giving Marge L-Theanine and I honestly can't say enough good about it. Of course, it's impossible to know how much of the improvement is from training and how much is from the pill, but I really do think it's helping. It has absolutely no side effects, it's completely natural (comes from tea leaves I think), used by people (there is a chewable version for animals if that's what you prefer, but I use regular tablets). Of course, it's probably best to ask your vet, they might not know about it but my vet is usually willing to do a little research. 

I give 25 mg twice a day, sometimes an extra 12.5 or 25 if we're doing something big (like my agility trial)

Some info about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-theanine
http://www.virbacvet.com/other/product/anxitane_l_theanine_chewable_tablets/

I have also used Melatonin, but I think the only thing it helped with was thunderstorms. You can also look into not medicinal supplements, like DAP spray that she can wear on a bandana around her neck, massage techniques, body wraps, etc.

-------

I'm way too tired to think straight right now but Marge had a great time at her trial. We didnt qualify or win anything, and she decided to leave the ring and run zoomies on one of our runs, but the second run it all came together for us. All of the mistakes were because of me, she did everything right, and anything she screwed up I purposely didn't go back and fix because I wanted her to just go with the flow. Who would know that this is a fearful dog? She's SO different at anything involving agility..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Hallie said:


> ...at 8 months she started the odd behavior of wagging her tail, barking, and running away from any man who approached her. Does anyone know what that behavior could signal? It's not like an extreme fearful response it's like she thinks it's a game but she's nervous and trying to run away at the same time. She would run away barking and then come back displaying the same behavior.


I've seen Wally do that one time. There were a couple guys just sitting out on the front lawn. He took an interest in them for some reason, did a grrrrrr-ruff type of bark, ran away, then would turn around, approach a bit, and do the same thing.

I figure he was either trying to get my attention about the guys or was trying to invite them to a game (no idea why).

He's never done it again.



MissMutt said:


> I'm way too tired to think straight right now but Marge had a great time at her trial. We didnt qualify or win anything, and she decided to leave the ring and run zoomies on one of our runs, but the second run it all came together for us. All of the mistakes were because of me, she did everything right, and anything she screwed up I purposely didn't go back and fix because I wanted her to just go with the flow. Who would know that this is a fearful dog? She's SO different at anything involving agility..


That just looks like fun (and rather challenging) 

It's nice she has one thing she can enjoy - too bad there's no way you can set up some make-shift "obstacles" for her to jump and such out in the field you've mentioned a few times on your walks.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I am so glad to hear everyone has been having good days. Halloween here was easy for me and Tiberius, we stayed in and handed out candy. Not many kids were out trick or treating in our neighborhood anyway.

We did have two good experiences this weekend. Tiberius approached two different strange men. The first one was a police officer standing in my Mom's dining room (long story..don't really wanna get into details) and sniffed his pants leg. The other was a friend of the family's, and Tiberius walked right up to him then nudged his hand for attention. Of course Casanova was near by each time and so was I so I think that helped.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

*MM*--loved seeing Marge's agility run. She definitely looked like she was having fun. 

*Dunixi*--That's great to hear about Ti! I have a hard time imagining Brenna actually nudging any man's hand for attention except my hubby's, but she is doing better with men in general, as long as they appear non-threatening.

Speaking of men and Brenna, I forgot to mention that before obedience class last week, a couple of men came in to talk to our instructor. We have our class in the local National Guard Armory, and one of the men was in his uniform. As they were leaving, he noticed Brenna and made a beeline to come see her. He said that he loves collies and asked if he could pet her. I said he could try, but explained that she is rather shy. He left her sniff his hand, and she also sniffed his pants and boots. She still backed away when he tried to pet her, but she was interested/curious about him, which is always good. 

Last night we had one of my aunts who lives in another state stay with us on her way to visit some relatives. Brenna had never met her before, so it was another opportunity to socialize!  My aunt is very dog-savvy, so she was really easy going and quiet when Brenna came up to sniff her, actually didn't try to talk to her or make any eye contact with her at all. As the evening went on, Brenna warmed up to her more and more and even came over to her for some petting. This morning I was very surprised to see Brenna even greet my aunt with some little tiny tail wags! She really is starting to come out of her shell these days, which makes me so happy. 

I'm hoping for another good class tonight, although I'm not looking forward to all of it...our instructor told us last week we would do a mini Rally course, mainly for those who are interested in continuing on to more advanced obedience later on. I really don't think Brenna is going to want to participate in that, so I don't know what we'll do while everyone else is doing it. Oh well...we'll see!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey guys! Hope everyone's doggies are having a good day. 

I just had to pop in and brag a bit about Brenna today. She did better than ever at class last night! I took some chopped up turkey for treats, and she was so excited about it that I had her full attention for a large amount of class time!  She did every exercise the instructor had us do as we walked around the room, as well as nice long sit/stays and down/stays we did with the dogs lined up parallel to each other. She had a little trouble getting focussed on me when we started doing the rally course, I think because the room was set up differently and she had to get used to it. But when we did it a second time, she did much better. I was so pleased! Our instructor asked who wants to try for CGC at the end of class, and after last night's success, I almost think Brenna might be able to do it. But we won't be able to anyway because of scheduling conflicts. Anyway, even if we never get her CGC tested, I know how far Brenna has come and what a good dog she is, regardless. And that's what really matters!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Cocoa - I have been doing lots of work with Tiberius. He seems much more confident on his leash so when its time to meet new people. I'll leash him, and keep him on a short leash at my side. normally after a few moments he is comfortable enough (these days anyway) to move around the group and sniff.

On other news with Tiberius, when its time to go out for potty breaks, he is going out without a leash. I open the back door and he goes outside. I stand on the porch where I can see him, he does his business then comes back onto the porch and sits politely to wait to be let in.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well everyone... As my luck would have it... My father and I are now staying in a Hotel.  We've been here since Saturday. Things got really tough at home, and without going into detail, my _father_ felt the need to get a Hotel. (If that gives you any indication of how bad it got.)

Anyway... Have no fear, Donatello never left my side.  I happened to call-off work on Saturday because I had to get this crap straightened out, but I did manage to go in Sunday morning... I'm still working, and Donatello is still accompanying me.

He is the only one enjoying this experience! I swear it! He loves the hotel room, he trots (literately) down the hall-way when it's time to go potty. He's drinking and eating, with my father in the room. That is _huge_! I've always had to shield him from noise and distractions so he could eat in peace without getting spooked... Well, gradually working him up so he has a tolerance, I guess now he feels comfortable to just eat when he wants.

He's been a lot more vocal at work, and yesterday a few puppies and dogs started howling at a passing firetruck... He joined in!  I was so thrilled, but still irked that he can't do cute stuff at home. lol.

He's also become a very good watchdog... He's always been alert to noises, but since living with my step-mother he's become quite accustomed to all noises, and would sooner sleep through the dropping of a bomb then bother picking his head up... Not now, every time there's a knock or a shuffle at the door, he'll pick his head up, ears pricked, and let out a quiet "woof", just one, and then he'll wait for a few minutes to hear the sound again before laying back down... 

He does great with my father too, when we come home [to the hotel] from work he gets so excited and wants to greet my father... He'll wag his tail, let out some whines and then once my father pets on him and gives him some love he'll calm back down and then go back to watching me do my business... 

He does really well with the guys that I work with... He doesn't tolerate them trying to grab on him, but he does wag his tail, take treats, and accept head scratches, but there was a guy in the elevator the night before last, the guy politely asked me what floor I wanted and Donatello let out this menacing growl, stood up real slow, hackles raised and was ready to pounce...

It's extremely odd how this dog ticks... Male strangers are _not_ allowed to talk to me... It's odd, he's been friendly with my co-workers since day one, and he's slowly but ever so surely warmed up to my father enough to jump in his lap... I'd like to think that Donatello and I are just _that_ in-tune with each other... That's the only explanation I can give. By that I mean, he senses the relationship my father and I share, he's aware that the guys I work with are "friends", and that I'm not comfortable around male strangers... He has barked at a few women before too, so I guess I shouldn't say just "men" either.

When he does act like a little jerk to strangers, I tell him, "_Donatello, sit. Be nice,"_ And like a good little boy he'll sit, his hackles will fall and he'll stop growling... But he won't stop with the death-stare. lol. 

I hope I haven't missed too much, good or bad, here with everyone!  Things have just been so hectic I can't seem to find the time to get on the internet. 

(Thank Dog for my father's laptop!)


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

If he'll take cookies when men approach you, I'd give them like crazy (I know he's picky so that might be a problem). That's what I do when men approach me, because Marge has been known to have that same kind of reaction.

Hope things get straightened out at home soon. Fingers crossed you'll be back where you're supposed to be really soon!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Thracian said:


> Could there be a medical reason for this? Or did you recently move and maybe he's trying to get his bearings?


Sorry I missed this Thracian..work has been keeping me busy. We recently moved into my mom's house, but he spent alot of time here before the move. I used to drop him off every morning before work or job hunting. He has stayed the night with my mom a few times before (I was out with friends and couldn't bring him) And Mom says he did it then to. I know he paced at night in the old house, but it wasn't as noticeable due to the carpet, I didn't hear him.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hmm.. would like your thoughts on this.

Marge and I have fallen in to a bit of a routine. Every night, sometime between 6 and 9 usually, we go on a walk usually lasting 25-35 mins. She's looked forward to it on night that I've been late.

We walk along the main road, but since it's dark, only a few people are out, making it good for Marge so that she isn't completely isolated from the world, but there's no big crowds or anything. 

I've tried to make the walk longer each time I go out, and it seems to be working. Sometimes we mozy on to the side streets a little bit with the hope of eventually being able to walk down them without a problem.

Now, my question.. when we come home, I've made a habit of throwing a toy around in the yard for her to play with. She seems to ALWAYS have zoomies as well at this time.

I'm thinking that her zoomies/crazy play only after this particular walk might be a way of burning off stress, so to speak.. because even though she seems to enjoy the walk, there are still times that she gets nervous about things, since anything scary is in much closer proximity than it would be when we're walking in the big field.

Thoughts? I can't imagine this walk/play combo being detrimental, but I do find it interesting that she gets so hyped after the walk.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Could be stress - but I don't think it does any harm to have her play after a walk. In fact, it could become a bit of a reward for completing the walk? Maybe eventually, she'll connect the walk to the playtime and then look forward to the walk even more and be in higher spirits?

Actually thinking about it more - I agree it's a "working off stress" or at least the pent-up energy that built up from the stress (the feeling of wanting to do something even though she doesn't). I've seen that in Wally when we were really working through his fearful/lacking confidence earlier.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

So does this mean the walk isn't good for her? She was practically begging me the other night to take her out. She does mark a fair bit (especially tonight, because I forgot to give her the L-Theanine) and sniffs, but I'm not sure how much of that sniffing is from stress and how much is from general curiosity. Marking I know to be a stress reaction. She carries her tail high and her head low, which is the position I find she's in when she's most comfortable. 

Tonight she even asked to cross the street and explore somewhere new.. THAT I found pretty remarkable.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi Miss Mutt!

My trainer told me something not long ago that made a lot of sense to me. Not all stress is bad stress. Even when we're doing something we enjoy, it can evoke a stress response or pent-up excitement (think of it like butterflies in your stomach). I brought this up because Mayzie does the same thing as Marge after we get home from training class, which she obviously loves. (The other night when we drove up to class, she immediately started whining - something she only does when she's happy-excited - and trying to crawl over me to get out before I had even opened up the door!) 

So even if Marge is feeling some stress on the walk, it may not be the bad kind of stress. And when you get home, her zoomies are more like "oh my GOSH...can you believe how cool that was?...that was SO UTTERLY COOL!"

Here's an analogy for you from a human perspective. I have done theater for many years. And whenever I get home from a particularly fun or good performance, it takes me a LOT of time to wind down. I am just too hyped up and have too much energy to immediately hop into bed. I'm betting that's what Marge is experiencing.

If she was feeling the bad kind of stress, I think you would detect it by her body language and I think she would tell you in her own Marge way that she didn't want to go on the walk.

So don't worry about it. Just enjoy the walk AND the post-walk zoomies!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Agreed. I wouldn't worry about the bottled up energy. Dogs just don't like to be in that state (from what I've read) and just want to DO something with that energy.

Your game gives her a chance to cut loose with all that and you get the zoomies and stuff. I mean Wally's run laps around the whole playground before, I mean just running for the heck of it at his full speed. Then he'll come back to me when he's done, panting heavily and looking up at me with a bright expression like "okay, I'm ready to walk now!" 

For Marge, it's not that way for her, of course, but it's the same idea. If she's comfortable for the most part and relaxed - she's enjoying the walk. If she's begging you to go on the walk - that's a good sign she's wanting it  I know I've never had Wally beg me to do something he finds unpleasant 

If she was sniffing in her relaxed posture, it's probably just curiosity. Something I have to remember is that not EVERYTHING is a signal. Sometimes, he sniffs because...well, he's a dog and that's what dogs do. Sniff stuff and pee on things. 

Maybe Marge was just being a dog - sniffing stuff and peeing on things.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Thanks guys. Honestly, learning more and more about calming signals, fear reactions, conditioning, and all this lovely stuff we deal with on a daily basis has made it HARDER for me in some ways, because I begin to scrutinize every little thing.

I do think the peeing is a stress signal of some sort, because she very frequently does it after seeing something that piques her interest in a negative way. Otherwise, I think she's pretty comfortable on our walks. This is really the only time I walk her in my neighborhood in a place other than the field, so it's definitely a big deal for her in a myriad of ways. She doesn't shut down (thank doG), she takes treats, and she's usually able to maintain eye contact with me, so I guess that's saying something.

It will be interesting to see if her post-walk "mood" changes over time. Perhaps as she gets more comfortable with walking, she'll stop zooming; or, she'll begin to look forward to the play session and continue being so full of buzzing energy.

I wonder if it's possible for a dog to truly feel proud of themselves after accomplishing a difficult thing, such as Marge braving up to walk for 25 minutes straight.. which would make the zoomies a combination of "that was fun" and "that was hard but I still did it.. whew!".. hmm. Crazy, maybe, but could be a possibility...

It could also be the fact that the air is cool, so walking warms up her body for a workout, and when she gets back she's got the yard to run around in.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> She doesn't shut down (thank doG), she takes treats, and she's usually able to maintain eye contact with me, so I guess that's saying something.


Sure does. She's staying with you in the moment, so if she does feel nervous, she's looking to you. That says a lot.



MissMutt said:


> I wonder if it's possible for a dog to truly feel proud of themselves after accomplishing a difficult thing, such as Marge braving up to walk for 25 minutes straight.. which would make the zoomies a combination of "that was fun" and "that was hard but I still did it.. whew!".. hmm. Crazy, maybe, but could be a possibility...


I think that's what it is. It's a lot like shaking when it's used as a signal. It has the effect of "wow, that was a challenge, but I did it and I'm happy!" I think this is why Wally shakes I comb him out at least as much as him "setting his hair straight". He hates being combed. He endures it, and when I tap him on the side (my signal for I'm done), he bounces around, shakes twice and is like "Let's go play!"

Dogs absolutely can feel proud of achieving something. The difference is that it's just not the "concept" of pride like we humans have, but it's more "I won the reward!" and it's based more on outside responses (either from the environment - they got the prey, the door opened, they drove away the intruder, etc) or from their people/handler (treats, praise, and the like). 

I see in Wally all the time. After every training session, he's jumping around super excited like Yay! I did it! and of course he wants me to join the party and go for a romp around the yard or a good game of chase to celebrate 






MissMutt said:


> It could also be the fact that the air is cool, so walking warms up her body for a workout, and when she gets back she's got the yard to run around in.


Could be. I know Wally gets more active in the cool air than the warm weather. Maybe the cooler air feels better on them when they do get worked up so they are able to/desire to have more exerting activity. Kind of like wind chill on a hot body + fun = OMG Perfectz!

Being in an excited (or stressed) state seems to raise body temperature. When Wally had his vet check-up last Christmas, he had a "slight fever" but it was mostly because he was shaking/distressed about being at the vet.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Just popping in for a quick Tiberius update. We had a bit of a busy weekend, my step-dad's family (his brother and brother in law) were up visiting. Pete (Step-dad's brother) is the quiter of the two, and Tiberius was a bit timid around him, but after a few minutes of Pete sitting in the dining room Ti went up and said hi. He sniffed a bit, then retreated to my room (which is closed off to the rest of the downstairs with curtains he can run under). 

Then Romy (Step-dad's brother in law) came over. He's up so him and my step-dad can go hunting. Tiberius was outside when he showed up, and Tiberius was all happy to see someone new. Casanova was outside, and he was doing his happy whine/bark at Romy's truck..so I think that helped. I think it was Ti saying, "Cassie likes this person, he must be nice." I took Tiberius off his run and held his collar (I didn't have his leash handy) so he could sniff Romy. Both dogs got let in, and I grabbed a handful of kibble. Tiberius got "Good boys" and treats for being in the room with me, mom, step-dad and Romy. Then I gave some kibble to Romy and asked him to see if Tiberius would take it from him. He held out a piece, and Tiberius very carefully took it. He even sat on command for me with all the excitement!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds like good news all around for the last couple of days! Thought I'd share some of my own...

Over the weekend, hubby and I painted our bedroom, which meant the rest of the house was full of random pieces of furniture and our routine was all out of whack. This caused Brenna to stay in her crate for the majority of the time, and we didn't get much of a chance to spend time together doing fun things. So yesterday, when everything was cleaned up and back to normal, we closed her crate so that she would have to spend the day with us instead of hiding away. (Do any of the rest of you do this sort of thing? Or maybe most other dogs don't LOVE their crate as much as Brenna does?) Anyway, she did well with that, even though I know there were times that she really wanted to go "hide away." In fact, for a while, she chose to sit with hubby in the living room while he took a nap, rather than opting for her usual spot in the office with me...that made him very happy! 

Anyway, last night we were just hanging out in the family room...hubby was playing piano and I was relaxing on the couch. Brenna came in, so I decided to get down on the floor with her...and lo and behold, she started getting all excited, wagging her tail and and almost doing some play bows. Hubby got down on the floor so he could play with her, too, and she played silly and happily with us for a good five minutes! I know that may not sound like much to most people, but for Brenna, this was a really big deal! She never plays with us...ever! I get the feeling she never knew that people wanted to play with doggies until she came to us. But apparently she is finally starting to get the idea, little by little! That really made our whole day.

Brenna has also been finding her voice and being more assertive about "protecting her territory" from the random squirrels, deer and other small animals that happen to be in/around our yard. This morning she was even so bold as to chase a young buck off into the trees! I don't think I'd ever seen her move so fast!  She has been barking at more and more sounds and critters when we go outside lately, which is great to hear. I'd much rather have to teach her to be quiet if she starts barking too much that have a dog so inhibited that she won't bark at all!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Well all the ups and finally a down. I knew it was going to happen. Its ok..adjusting to a new life and a new routine is gonna cause problems. Tiberius is now refusing to go out for potty time for anyone but me. I work from 1 pm to 9pm which means my family takes him out while I'm at work (unless he is is outside until sunset). He refuses to come to anyone when called (me included half the time) we have to sweet talk him over to us..then he shakes but walks with us to the door. Finally, once he is outside, he is fine. He runs around, does his business, then comes back to the porch when called. This morning my mom put him on his leash to go out cause I wasn't out of bed yet. Once the leash was on, he squatted and peed on the floor with Mom standing there. We are going back to crating him at night like I did when he first came home. Here is the idea.
When I go to bed, Tiberius goes into his crate. (Usually around 11pm or midnight)
I get up at 7am to take him out. 
I go back to bed and let him stay outta his crate
I get up at 9:30am, and take him out again.
I get ready for work, then either tie Tiberius out or leave him in the house with the crate door open. As long as he is in his crate he will let Mom and Gordon (her hubby) take him out.
We will do this until I can leave him out or let him sleep in his crate with the door open. 

Any other suggestions on what we can do to make him more comfortable with people? He will take treats from Gordon, Mom and my brother...and my brother (who hates dogs) is the only who can catch him to take him out but he refuses too.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

*Dunixi:* Could it be submissive peeing? 

Maybe, a way to get Ti used to other people handling him, I would suggest that your mom and whoever else might leash Tiberius, (when they have the time) take Ti out for a long walk; Using that solo one-on-one time, give commands and treats and do it long enough and frequent enough that he slowly realizes that other people care for him to.

(Just an idea... I'm not sure what you've tried and what you haven't...)

Could his pee accident in-front of your mother be because he just couldn't hold it anymore? Maybe she was paused and talking or something? 

I cut-off Donatello's water supply at 6:00. If he chooses to drink I let him drink for a count of 5 Mississippi's.  He usually still has to pee right away first thing in the morning, but it does reduce the risk of him going before I have the chance to take him out...

---

Well, I didn't post it here, but early yesterday morning, (4:45) I woke up to see Donatello very ill... Vomiting and diarrhea. Instead of taking him to the dog park we just lounged around the hotel-room... I did go out, took him with me, and picked up some rice. I made him some boiled Hamburger and Rice and he ate every bite! 

Then when my father left work I had him pick up some baby-aspirin and canned Pumpkin. I gave him half of a chewable tablet and then fed him a few tablespoons of Pumpkin. 

The night before last, he was running a fever and had the chills... He hasn't had them since and he's doing so much better!

I believe that this "bug" was because he's not been eating right... So I now have to take the reigns again and control when he eats, instead of letting him eat when he's hungry or when he's comfortable. 

He did poo again last night; My father seems to think it's because I'm not taking him out late enough at night... With not eating right, getting food back in his system and adding fiber to his diet, I'm expecting his body to still be out of whack... He's not peeing in the room here, just some poo... He's not the type to wake me up, and in the (almost) year I've had him this is the first accident he's had since the first couple nights I've had him...

I am keeping him home from work with me today... I just think some more rest would be good for him... My father doesn't like the idea of crates; I tell him, _"All Donatello would do anyway is sleep,"_ and he says, _"Yeah, well keep him out, he can sleep on your bed,"_  He thinks a crate is just to be used when "absolutely necessary"...

Well, I hope everyone is managing well.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

deege39 said:


> *Dunixi:* Could it be submissive peeing?
> 
> Maybe, a way to get Ti used to other people handling him, I would suggest that your mom and whoever else might leash Tiberius, (when they have the time) take Ti out for a long walk; Using that solo one-on-one time, give commands and treats and do it long enough and frequent enough that he slowly realizes that other people care for him to.
> 
> ...


They have tried the long walks thing..he will walk for Mom very well. For Gordon, he will walk but he is nervous and jumpy. I think I'm going to start taking him for walks before work too, see if that helps.

As for his accident. He had been standing in my room, watched my mom walk up and clip the leash onto his collar then he squatted and peed as she tried to get him to walk to the he door. This is the first time he's ever done something like this. This morning, I was the only one home, and he ran right up to me and barked to let me know he had to go out..not something he does when everyone else is home. He has quiet signals with Mom and Gordon are home.

I'd take his water away, but all the cats and Casanova share one water dish. It makes it hard to tell Tiberius no water when I don't have a way of keeping him from drinking. Its hard enough to get weight back on him with a pig like Casanova in the house.

Most of the accidents and fear of my family started back up after these last two very busy weekends. I know why he is afraid of Gordon. Gordon stares him right in the eyes all the time. With my Mom, Tiberius only runs when she is walking and she walks very heavily.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

deege39 said:


> My father doesn't like the idea of crates; I tell him, _"All Donatello would do anyway is sleep,"_ and he says, _"Yeah, well keep him out, he can sleep on your bed,"_  He thinks a crate is just to be used when "absolutely necessary"...


Heh, Donatello might even come to love his crate. 

Taking it from Wally would actually be a punishment.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Heh, Donatello might even come to love his crate.
> 
> Taking it from Wally would actually be a punishment.


That's definitely the case with Brenna! Like I said in my last post, we have been closing her crate during the times when we are home and want her to sit in the same room with us. But there are alot of times when she walks over to her crate and looks into it like, "Boy, I'd really like to be in there right now. Would someone please open the door? Please?" It's better for her to be out with us, though, I think. She needs to learn to trust us more and to get used to the activities that happen in each part of the house. 

By way of an update, class went well Tuesday night, overall. We had alot more distractions in the room than the past couple of weeks (One lady brought her husband and three young boys to class, and they were rather disruptive...) but Brenna still pressed on and focussed on me most of the time. I still kind of wish we could do the CGC testing, but it's not going to work out this time. Just one more class left...I can't believe it! Brenna has really progressed so far in such a short time! I don't know how I'm going to keep socializing her once it's over though. My one indoor options around here are PetCo (can you say high stress?) and the vet's office (with all the sick doggies ) and it's going to be getting too cold for people to be out at the parks soon. At least we will be seeing a bit more family during the holidays. Maybe that will count. 

Just now I was laughing at Brenna because she was barking and growling really loud at some utility workers out at the curb. Of course they couldn't hear her, but she was really warning them to get out of her yard! It was so priceless! She knows where home is and who belongs in her yard and who doesn't! Maybe she will turn into a bit of a guardian collie after all!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CocoaCream said:


> Would someone please open the door? Please?" It's better for her to be out with us, though, I think. She needs to learn to trust us more and to get used to the activities that happen in each part of the house.


Yep. That's Wally - especially at night. What's funny is sometimes he sleeps outside the crate at night, but wants to go in it to sleep, at least initially. Dogs.




CocoaCream said:


> By way of an update, class went well Tuesday night, overall. We had alot more distractions in the room than the past couple of weeks (One lady brought her husband and three young boys to class, and they were rather disruptive...) but Brenna still pressed on and focussed on me most of the time. I still kind of wish we could do the CGC testing, but it's not going to work out this time. Just one more class left...I can't believe it! Brenna has really progressed so far in such a short time! I don't know how I'm going to keep socializing her once it's over though. My one indoor options around here are PetCo (can you say high stress?) and the vet's office (with all the sick doggies ) and it's going to be getting too cold for people to be out at the parks soon. At least we will be seeing a bit more family during the holidays. Maybe that will count.


Yeah, I know the feeling. With the colder weather here, not many people are out and about with their dogs. Not that he's ever played with too many dogs, but he's getting a bit better about not "fence fighting" every fenced dog he sees but actually being a buddy to them, but not many dogs out in the cold damp days like today (which of course is good for those dogs). Though his puppy buddy was out, despite the weather today (unseasonably cool and light rain). The two of them whined because they couldn't get past the fence LOL. Wally also whined at me to let him go over to him. 



CocoaCream said:


> Just now I was laughing at Brenna because she was barking and growling really loud at some utility workers out at the curb. Of course they couldn't hear her, but she was really warning them to get out of her yard! It was so priceless! She knows where home is and who belongs in her yard and who doesn't! Maybe she will turn into a bit of a guardian collie after all!


I kinda wish Wally would do that. Cotons are supposed to be known for their alert barking, but he's never done it in the house (except for a cat a couple times). My mother said Wally has alert growled/barked for her a couple times on their early morning walks, so maybe he's growing into it as well.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Donatello doesn't _love_ his crate, but he doesn't fight me going in it; He sleeps in it comfortably and doesn't have any accidents... At home, if he got scared he'd run to his crate... So at least he feels safe in his crate, enough to sleep even, and that's all [more than] I'm asking for.

My father is kind of "old-school" with dogs and crates...  He means well and I appreciate him offering to watch Donatello, but I don't expect my father to do that...


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Well guys. I have a problem...

I'm not sure what to think here. I've been worried about this since Wednesday morning when Donatello first got sick. (His poo is still reshaping, but he's not vomiting, he hasn't had anymore "chills" or fevers.)

However...

He's still not eating good.  I am such a mess over this! Not but a couple days after my father and I _had_ to switch hotels, is when Donatello "got sick"... 

Like I said, I'm not sure what to think here...

I ran out of his regular food, so almost two weeks ago I was given some new food from work; He hasn't been eating right since then, but since then is when we changed hotels too... 

He'll eat soft-dog food, more like suck the soft-dog food off the dry stuff and spit the kibble on the floor.  

So... Here are all the things I've tossed around in my brain.

1) He's extremely stressed, and I just can't catch on to it.
2) He's sick
3) He hates the new food

Debunking theory #1: He doesn't seemed stressed in the least, <at times>. At the other hotel he would play with his toys, he would jump down on his own and his food (his regular food.) However, since we've changed hotels the only time he gets excited is if I work him up to go out for a walk. He'll jump down to drink water when he needs it, and when I try to feed him (but he won't do it on his own.)

So, I can see him being stressed out...

Debunking theory #2: If he was "sick", wouldn't he be getting worse? Showing more symptoms, or the same symptoms stick around? His diarrhea has cleared up, he hasn't thrown up since the same morning he had diarrhea; Although he doesn't do the same things in the other hotel, he's not lethargic... He still acts like himself. (If you understand what I mean.)

If it was a problem with his "teeth", which I played with that idea; If he couldn't eat his kibble, then why is he still chewing on his beef sticks? Chewing on _month_ hard dog biscuits? He'll chew on those hard crunchy treats, but just spits out kibble...

So, I can't really see him being sick, or having a tooth ache...

Debunking theory #3: I'm really wondering if this is the case. The more I play with this idea the more realistic it might be... Up until the last couple weeks Donatello has never been picky! The last few months he's been eating more and more dry kibble, proving against the theory with his teeth.

The last couple days I've tried tossing at him everything I can think of; Different kibble samples from work and everything... But he just snubs his nose at them, or takes them and spits them out. 

I'm really hoping that he just _loved_ his dog food so much he's upset I'm trying to feed him this other stuff... 

He can't be all that sick, he's back to eating the crusts off my sandwiches. lol.

But... Even if he is just "upset" that I'm out of his regular dog food... I'm still concerned about the hotel change affecting him.  I'm wondering just how stressed out he is, and how it's affecting him.

What would you guys do to help your dogs through this stressful situation? Now keep in mind that if I try anything out of the ordinary, it freaks him out; I mean like, sit down on the floor and play with him... I've tried and he just gets nervous, more nervous the more I push it...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I would probably just leave him be like I did when Wally first came here and didn't do much of anything. 

Just try to let him settle down and see for himself that this new environment is safe and just relax.

Also, the change in food might be contributing to his change in bowels? That plus the stress/drastically new situation?

I wouldn't do much of anything except watch him and take him out to do his bathroom business. Let him acclimate at his own pace and see for himself things are still okay and he's just in a new "den" and "territory" for a while. Maybe try to establish a new routine (even something as simple as going out at the same times everyday), or create a ritual around silly stuff. Wally and I have lots of them, I think it helps them since they think that way sometimes. Doesn't have to be anything big. Just something to add some consistency and something he can lean on for a little stability right now.

I believe fearful dogs need to find out for themselves stuff/places are safe. We just help them be willing to test their boundaries and explore, imo.

If interacting with him sets him off - I would limit it. If he'll just lay by you, let him, etc. Nothing is going to hurt him and he'll see that eventually and hopefully start to settle down.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Do you still have those tablets? Now seems like the perfect time to use them.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I would probably just leave him be like I did when Wally first came here and didn't do much of anything.
> 
> Just try to let him settle down and see for himself that this new environment is safe and just relax.
> 
> ...


Thanks KBLover. A few people from the "food" thread, and a few people from work said, _"Oh, I'd take him to the vet, ASAP,"_ and I said, _"For what? A bout of morning sickness and some diarrhea?"_ Yeah, the fever and the chills were scary, but the next morning all was well again, granted he seemed a little drained, but who doesn't? 

I don't want to _rush_ to the vet, and explain everything, only for them to tell me _"He's just stressed out, let him relax,"_ We're still in the hotel, and I can't afford that right now... It sounds terrible but that's the truth.

I hope you all realize, that although I say that, if it looked like Donatello was seriously ill he would go to the vet the very minute. 

But thanks, KBLover, your post has calmed me down a little... All of this is probably in my head and I'm over-analyzing it; I just need to calm down, and let Donatello calm down... He's still drinking plenty of water, he's still peeing, and his poo, although still a little soft, it's not straight liquid, and he's not having difficulty going... 

I just need to relax too.



MissMutt said:


> Do you still have those tablets? Now seems like the perfect time to use them.


Well, no, I don't have those tablets with me.  I think I can swing a new bottle... I just didn't think to use them when he's not "freaking out".

---

Yesterday afternoon, around 3:00, I took him to a new park across town. They have a huge dog park there, but it was somewhat crowded. I didn't think Donatello needed that anymore then he needs a hole in his head! 

So we just walked the trail... It was gorgeous! I almost felt like I was in a forest, not a wooded area in a park near an interstate.  

We walked at least a mile... He had a blast, or at least I think he did; When we got back to the truck, he jumped up in the bed of the truck and when I offered a bowl of water he drank plenty...

I just hope he eats soon..............

Thank you KBLover and MissMutt for your suggestions.  I really appreciate it.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

*deege--*Hoping that Donatello feels better and calms down soon. I know it is worrisome to have a slightly sick pet...not sick enough to warrant a visit to the vet, but enough to make you wonder how to help them get back to normal. I'm sure that once he gets used to everything...new food and new environment...that he will bounce back and be playful little Don again!

We had a bit of company on Friday, so it was a great opportunity to see how far Brenna has come with her social interaction with people. She was cautious of everyone when they first came through the front door, but once we all sat down, she relaxed and wandered from person to person letting them pet her and talk to her. One of our guests was a girl of about 12 who loves dogs. She was very eager to pet Brenna, give her hugs and get down on the floor with her. And Brenna handled all this with perfect, gentle collie manners. The more often I see her with kids, the more I see how much she likes them, which is great! She didn't have her tail tucked at all, and even did some sits, downs and targeting for me in a room full of strangers! She actually almost seemed happy to have new people in the house...more people equals more attention, after all! 

So, after all our recent interaction with new people in familiar settings, I've decided that Brenna's biggest fear is not so much new people but new places. That is very encouraging to me as we keep moving forward in helping her overcome her fears. If I can just help her realize that she can trust us to keep her safe in new surroundings, I think we'll have a pretty happy, well-balanced doggie eventually!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Deege, I am hoping Don is feeling better.

Cocoa, I am glad to hear about Brenna! Its good to read she handled the situation of strangers well. 

Its been quiet here the last couple of days. Tiberius had a bout of the runs due to a food change. My mom forgets his stomach is a bit more sensitive then Casanova's and just changes the food at random. He is back on his food now, and feeling much better. We haven't had really any accidents (other then when he wasn't feeling well). Not much going on with training or socializing him since it was kind of a rough weekend.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Thanks for the encouragement everyone; Donatello is feeling better. He's peeing and pooing normally, he's not having difficulty; However, his poo is still trying to reshape, but he's not having accidents inside, so I'm relieved. 

He did eat yesterday; I found some new soft-food I've been wanting to try; It's made with chunks of -real- salmon, it's not processed and pressed artificial meat... He _loved_ it, so much so that he didn't even take the time to suck it off the kibble! He ate almost the entire bowl, and I didn't even bother to stir it in the kibble either... The kibble he ate was a small bag of Evo, I believe, a sample bag from work.

Late yesterday evening I did go over to the "house" and get the rest of his dog food... So we'll see how he does.

The last couple days I've taken him to the park; Yesterday it was just him and me, in the small dog pen... It was beautiful there! He didn't do much but have a couple zoomies, then wander around sniffing and marking, but the fresh air and freedom was good for him...

He came back home and played with his new toy for a few minutes... Something he hasn't done since the last hotel.  I think he's starting to relax.

Thanks to you MissMutt for reminding me about those tablets, I picked up a small bottle, and gave him two the other day, on Sunday, and I believe it made a considerable difference... 



Dunixi said:


> Its been quiet here the last couple of days. Tiberius had a bout of the runs due to a food change. My mom forgets his stomach is a bit more sensitive then Casanova's and just changes the food at random. He is back on his food now, and feeling much better. We haven't had really any accidents (other then when he wasn't feeling well). Not much going on with training or socializing him since it was kind of a rough weekend.


I hope it gets better for you, with the training and the socializing... My father has been remarking a lot lately that he's very impressed with Donatello; Even through all of this, the hotel changes, and everything he's still a relatively lively and happy dog... And my father said it's wonderful to see the changes he's made.

I didn't skip a beat in reminding him that I played a part in that... He still doesn't understand "fearful" dogs, and he's still under the misconception that a dog is a dog and thinks the dog will just "get over it"... He doesn't understand and realize the daily battle it takes to help a dog "get over it".

Wow, it's like a small bug is going around the doggy-kingdom... Donatello had a bout of sickness the other morning, too... I hope Ti feels better soon! 



CocoaCream said:


> *deege--*Hoping that Donatello feels better and calms down soon. I know it is worrisome to have a slightly sick pet...not sick enough to warrant a visit to the vet, but enough to make you wonder how to help them get back to normal. I'm sure that once he gets used to everything...new food and new environment...that he will bounce back and be playful little Don again!


Thanks for the support! I'm glad someone understands why I'm worried... You explained it perfectly. Donatello hasn't been showing the signs that he _needs_ to go to the vet, but the symptoms were still troubling... 



> We had a bit of company on Friday, so it was a great opportunity to see how far Brenna has come with her social interaction with people. She was cautious of everyone when they first came through the front door, but once we all sat down, she relaxed and wandered from person to person letting them pet her and talk to her. One of our guests was a girl of about 12 who loves dogs. She was very eager to pet Brenna, give her hugs and get down on the floor with her. And Brenna handled all this with perfect, gentle collie manners. The more often I see her with kids, the more I see how much she likes them, which is great! She didn't have her tail tucked at all, and even did some sits, downs and targeting for me in a room full of strangers! She actually almost seemed happy to have new people in the house...more people equals more attention, after all! : )


That is fabulous!!  Taking Donatello to work with me, (doggy-daycare), it's exposed him to all kinds of dogs, with different personalities, and even different people... He's now found that people sometimes have "surprise" treats, so his first reaction is to look up, and wag his tail... Isn't that great?

It's great to hear that Brenna is making such progress, with children even! That's amazing, and wonderful just in itself.  Congratulations!

I hope everyone has a wonderful week.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Thought THIS might be a helpful read, especially the Yahoo group suggestion.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't know what happened from last week 'til now, but our walks have gotten kind of icky again. 

Not really sure WHAT to do at this point.. don't know if I should stop the night walks, change my route or times, give more L-Theanine, call my vet, UGH...


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks, CP. I'm looking forward to reading that.

MissMutt - I haven't been on this thread in so long, I may have missed it. Did you ever hear back about the thyroid test?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Can a dog "stop" being fearful or is it just that he becomes more used to various situations and less reactive in his responses?

I ask for a couple reasons after doing a real assessment of Wally's behavior.

-He doesn't seem to have fear response to the point of being shook up for a long time afterwords. Most of the time, it's a few moments after and he might not be frolicking happy if he was before, but he's not hyper-vigilant or super-jumpy once away from whatever "one-time" trigger.

-His fear responses can be quickly halted by giving him a command. He'll then focus on that and then me and he settles down considerably. If he was shaking, he'll stop. If he was panting nervously, he'll close his mouth and move his ears forward (his version of raised/pricked ears) in focus.

-New things don't scare him. He's still wary (like there was a couch near the sidewalk and he walked a curve around it), but if ask him to touch it, he'll touch it, but perhaps that wariness is still a sign of his fearful nature.

-What used to totally freak him out, strange people, has disappeared. He will follow anyone trying to sniff them as they walk. I always have to get him to come and keep walking, heh, or else he'll be sniffing them until he's satisfied his curiosity. It's twice as bad if he smells food on them, or he sees them eating.


I know there's varying degrees of fear and fearfulness, but where does the line between stand-offish/cautious/suspicious and fearful exist? What are some objective, observable behaviors I can test/look out for to see if he's still fearful, to what he's still fearful towards, or if it's even fear or "I would just rather not be in this situation." ?

I keep labelling Wally as a "fearful dog" but he's NOTHING like he was when I first hooked up with this thread or noticed his fear responses. It makes me wonder if he's still fearful, or am I still looking at him through outdated glasses.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi KB,

A woman on the fearful dog group I belong to actually brought something like this up the other day. Like Wally, her dog has come a long way from her initial fears. While in agility class, some small things occurred that her instructor brought to her attention. She realized that even though her dog is no longer showing the over-the-top signs of being afraid, she still has fears - albeit smaller and more subtle. She said that she saw this as a new challenge. To be more aware of these smaller signals and work on those.

Obviously, the big fears are going to get our attention. But I think we have to keep drilling down to each level of fear as the larger ones erode. Does that make sense?

I think you know Wally really well and you're very in tune with him. I would just start watching him even more carefully for his more subtle fear cues. Then continue to address them as they arise.

I've been thinking a lot about whether dogs can completely overcome their fears. I'm wondering if it's more possible for a dog who's not genetically shy to overcome them than one who is. The more I know Mayzie, the more I think her fears are not based in a genetic predisposition. I truly think that hers are because of her lack of socialization and early experience. I have a feeling that may be true about Wally as well, from what I've read.

I also tend to not buy into the theory that there's a set window for socialization. I think it definitely makes it HARDER for a dog if they're not socialized early. And it may take them longer to become well-adjusted. But the brain isn't rigid. It's very plastic and adaptable. So why should we believe that once the window is closed, it can never be pried back open?

So in answer to your question...I do think it's possible for a dog to *almost* completely overcome their fears. Because of their history and the baggage they bring with them, it may not be a complete recovery. But close.

And that's probably more than you ever wanted to know about what I thought about that subject! Ha!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Hey ColoradoSooner,

Thanks for the response. Don't worry about going long-winded 

I figure I can never know enough so the more info and thoughts and such I get, the more I have to think about and look at how to apply.

Your post makes a lot of sense, and I'll have to start looking for the cues of smaller fear responses.

Speaking of cues, Wally's giving me one that he needs to pee...NOW...so gotta cut it short


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> MissMutt - I haven't been on this thread in so long, I may have missed it. Did you ever hear back about the thyroid test?


Yep - came back clean. 

Going to give it another push tonight with the walk and see if maybe we just had a hiccup this past week. Going to wait until 8:00-8:30ish so not too many people will be out.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> I've been thinking a lot about whether dogs can completely overcome their fears. I'm wondering if it's more possible for a dog who's not genetically shy to overcome them than one who is. The more I know Mayzie, the more I think her fears are not based in a genetic predisposition. I truly think that hers are because of her lack of socialization and early experience. I have a feeling that may be true about Wally as well, from what I've read.


Just was reading your post again and was wondering...

How can we tell if a fear is genetic/genetically influenced over just lack of experience/socialization?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Just was reading your post again and was wondering...
> 
> How can we tell if a fear is genetic/genetically influenced over just lack of experience/socialization?


That's a great question. I don't have the answer or anything, but it's a great question. LOL

I guess the only thing I can say is that I always go back to that diathesis-stress model I posted about in here a while. I can't imagine fear being strictly "genetically based" or strictly "environmental based." To have a reaction to an unpleasant stimuli, I feel like the genetic component has to be there too. There are dogs that endure terrible puppyhoods (environment) and still come out looking like champs. So perhaps they have a low genetic predisposition to fear that allows them to still function pretty normally in the face of stressors. There are dogs who have great puppyhoods and are still jumpy and nervous around certain things (genetics). Those dogs have a high predisposition that overrides even the best of environments.

It's one big great interaction.. I guess one thing you could possibly say is that fear that is predominantly environmental in cause might respond better to CC/DS.. but, then again, prolonged stress does have the capability of affecting the body/brain, so an 'environmental' fear could, theoretically, wind up being biologically based as well..

I don't know where I'm going with this.. or if it even makes sense or applies..


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Hi guys. Haven't posted in a while here. Things have been fairly quiet with Poca with the exception of another disappointing visit to the vets. Lots of work still to do there. 

Her bloodwook results were great, though, except for her cholesterol!!  She's been on a new med for her IBD and the only way she would take it is mixed in peanut butter 2x a day so we're thinking that's what caused her high cholesteral reading. So poor Poca only gets peanut butter occasionally. Makes desensitization harder but we'll just have to find something equally smelly and yummy that she'll respond to.

Colorado: I agree with you on socialization. I have seen so many dogs overcome a lack of it in adulthood that I no longer believe there is just a narrow window when dogs are young to socialize them. It is a lot harder socializing an adult dog, for sure, but it's not impossible. I think folks like Dunbar hammer on it so much because they know how many problems are caused by a lack of socialization, which leads to dogs being put in shelters/PTS, etc. And they know that the majority of people won't bother to do the work it takes to address the problem with an adult dog. Frankly, Dunbar makes it sound so hopeless that I think he does rescue dogs a disservice, i.e. it could dissuade people from adopting a fearful dog because they think there's nothing that can be done to help it overcome its fears. JMO - don't want to start a huge debate on it, esp. since this is the only thing I would quibble with him about. That and his misplaced faith in the power of plain kibble to motivate. Poca laughs at the notion!

So.....Thanksgiving is coming. We have a crowd of people coming over for dinner. What is everyone doing to deal with it? Last Thanksgiving was a disaster -- oven door smashing to the floor, spreading broken glass all over the place (before the sides were cooked), dog pooping upstairs in fear, etc. The people had a lot of fun, Poca, not so much. Am looking forward to trying something new this year so that she'll be more comfortable.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> That's a great question. I don't have the answer or anything, but it's a great question. LOL
> 
> I guess the only thing I can say is that I always go back to that diathesis-stress model I posted about in here a while. I can't imagine fear being strictly "genetically based" or strictly "environmental based." To have a reaction to an unpleasant stimuli, I feel like the genetic component has to be there too. There are dogs that endure terrible puppyhoods (environment) and still come out looking like champs. So perhaps they have a low genetic predisposition to fear that allows them to still function pretty normally in the face of stressors. There are dogs who have great puppyhoods and are still jumpy and nervous around certain things (genetics). Those dogs have a high predisposition that overrides even the best of environments.
> 
> ...


That makes sense to me, Miss Mutt. I have a feeling it's probably easier to tell in a puppy whether they're genetically predisposed to being fearful than in an adult with unknown history. For instance, I have mentioned my mother's young border collie. From what I've read, BCs just tend to be more hardwired to be fearful, and Bonnie definitely is. I think no matter how much socialization she has, she will always be a nervous/cautious dog. Like you said, I think that genetically fearful dogs probably don't respond as well to CC/DS as those that aren't. Of course, I have NO scientific proof on which to base this on. Just my own observations.

For instance, Mayzie really is not noise-reactive at all. (Unless it's a huge sound that would scare ME.) On the other hand, Ranger - who is a very balanced, confident dog in most situations - is extremely noise sensitive. We have worked and worked with him on this and he is pretty much as noise-sensitive now as he was when we first got him 4 years ago. I truly believe that's because, for whatever reason, Ranger was just born noise-sensitive. I think probably the "socialization window" is more important for these types of dogs.

On the other hand, with Mayzie, even though she is very cautious and hyper-vigilant in a new situation - if we expose her to it slowly and over a period of time, she becomes totally fine and comfortable with it. She is also getting better about her "bounce back" time when something DOES scare her. And she's more interested in checking things out than she was when we first got her. To me, from a completely layman's point of view, I would think if she was genetically fearful, we wouldn't have made the same strides in a relatively short period of time.



> So.....Thanksgiving is coming. We have a crowd of people coming over for dinner. What is everyone doing to deal with it? Last Thanksgiving was a disaster -- oven door smashing to the floor, spreading broken glass all over the place (before the sides were cooked), dog pooping upstairs in fear, etc. The people had a lot of fun, Poca, not so much. Am looking forward to trying something new this year so that she'll be more comfortable.


Wow...sounds like you had a very exciting Thanksgiving last year...ha! I'm nervous about it, too, as we're travelling to visit family. We're going to take Mayzie's crate, which is her "safe place," and set it up for her in a quiet area of the houses we're going to be in. One of the houses is very dog-savvy, so I may let her decide whether she wants to be in her crate or out with us. The other will have lots of loud, rowdy kids so I'll probably just put her in her crate and shut the door to the room. I'm just going to do what I can to protect her from potential things that could really scare her and cause a set-back.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Turkey day should be easy here...its just Me, mom, step-dad and brother...my friend Corvyn may come by. all people Tiberius knows, so he will be fine.

Last night I took him out to go to the bathroom, step-dad is a trapper and left beaver carcasses outside. Tiberius decided he needed to bring one in the house..or try to. It was amusing as heck and disgusting at the same time.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

winniec777 said:


> That and his misplaced faith in the power of plain kibble to motivate. Poca laughs at the notion!


Wally joins Poca in laughter! 



ColoradoSooner said:


> That makes sense to me, Miss Mutt. I have a feeling it's probably easier to tell in a puppy whether they're genetically predisposed to being fearful than in an adult with unknown history. For instance, I have mentioned my mother's young border collie. From what I've read, BCs just tend to be more hardwired to be fearful, and Bonnie definitely is. I think no matter how much socialization she has, she will always be a nervous/cautious dog. Like you said, I think that genetically fearful dogs probably don't respond as well to CC/DS as those that aren't. Of course, I have NO scientific proof on which to base this on. Just my own observations.


If Border Collies are genetically more cautious - does that mean they are fearful, or just don't warm up to new stuff/situations as quickly?

Where does caution become fear? Is curving around an object he encounters for the first time in an "unexpected" place (like that coach by the sidewalk), is that caution or fear?

Still, don't know how, by looking at Wally, if his caution around a new object is genetic (i.e. Cotons are going to just be that way more often than not) or is it actual fear?

If I "force" him to interact or otherwise try to bring him out of that state, am I trying to make him go against "who he is"?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Where does caution become fear? Is curving around an object he encounters for the first time in an "unexpected" place (like that coach by the sidewalk), is that caution or fear?


For me, it depends on both the amount of fearful/cautious behaviors present and also the label you're giving the dog. Saying that a dog is "noise sensitive," for instance, isn't necessarily the same as saying the dog is "fearful." Likewise, if there are a FEW strange objects that they approach slowly and/or cautiously, that's not the same as a generalized fearful response to MANY objects. At least that's how I think of it.




> If I "force" him to interact or otherwise try to bring him out of that state, am I trying to make him go against "who he is"?


That's kind of like asking if socializing a Dogo Argentino to the world and making him do therapy work for sick kids in hospitals is going against "who he is." Or socializing a GSD who is supposed to be "aloof" around strangers to loving everyone and asking for pets. It's so hard to say.. I think that if you were overwhelming him with situations, asking him to come with you to very crowded, loud places with lots of dogs and people and scary things, THAT would be making him go against who he is. Because, whether or not it's genetic, he is a shy/fearful dog. Same goes for Marge. If I expected her to come with me to Pet Expos and carnivals, that would be going against who she is because I don't think at any point in her life will she be able to deal with that, regardless of the amount of behavior change is made.

People can be genetically predisposed to Panic Disorder, for example... but is going to therapy, going through cognitive-behavior training, and helping them deal with going out into the world "going against who they are?" 

Just some things to think about. It's certainly a thought-provoking question and I think it has bases in a whole lot more than just fear discussions.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

There's a difference between shy and fearful, though. 

Skyness is more a personality trait, just like a shy person isn't necessarily scared of people, just tends to be less likely to approach/be outgoing when meeting unfamilar people.

Though I understand your point. If I tried to make Wally be all forward and outgoing when meeting anything with four legs and a tail, then yeah I definitely agree that's trying to make him go out of his personality. Assuming he could change, it would probably be hard and awkward.

Though if he's truly fearful of dogs, then I'm not trying to change the fact he might not be first approach, but I'm trying to change his emotional response more than his personality. Instead of trying to run on sight or lunge and strike the other dog, Maybe he'll just watch with interest and caution.

However, if I had a second Coton, that was naturally/genetically outgoing and he meets and greets - I would be going against him to make him more reserved. For him, that would be hard.

Like you said, it's a thought provoking question, and probably one without definitive answers.


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

Lita update:

Long time, no update. But I've been reading along. You all are so wonderfully encouraging. And it's nice to know that other people are facing the same obstacles as well! 

I hope that Donatello is completely recovered! 

TurkeyDay will be an easy one for us. My husband and I will be the ones running around. Lita will rest comfortably at home waiting for our return and her evening walk.  Sounds good to me--I'm a bit jealous, actually!!!

As for training... we have had some positives and negatives, as seems to always be the case. 

Our walks have greatly improved! We purchased a Halti (yes, a training tool and we are using it as one... she has enough other issues that if this is going to keep her from pulling right now I'm all for it) and it has made a huge difference. It took some getting used to but she has nearly completely adjusted. 

Our desensitization to barking dogs has been working too. We are usually able to walk past houses with barking dogs now with no issue. The only time we typically have a problem now is if she can actually *see* the dog. Then she gets a bit squirrely. We'll just work on avoiding threshold here and see how that goes.

We did have two fairly positive doggy encounters. One off-leash dog charged us on a walk. I stepped between the other dog and Lita. He worked his way around to sniff her and went into a play bow. I think she may have actually played if she could have, but since I didn't know this dog at all, I was just trying to keep her calm. Once the owner came and grabbed him she tried to follow and managed to pull out of the Halti (thank goodness for the safety chain). Once he was out of sight I got her into a sit, fixed the Halti and we continued on. 

She also met another neighborhood American Bulldog, Gunner. He's a big boy! We saw his owner on a walk and she approached to ask about Lita. She was calm and so was he. He actually came up for a sniff. And she let him (I was so proud!). Then we separated them and they both got treats. I should've walked away then, darnit, but they both stayed while I chatted with the owner a bit more. Gunner got bored and started barking and that set Lita off and she lunged at him. Bad me for turning what could have been a completely positive experience into a negative one.  I'm still learning too.

We are still working on strengthening the "come" and "watch me" commands. "Watch me" has gotten fairly reliable with low-level distractions. But we're not there with "come" yet. 

This is actually our biggest frustration right now because this weekend we finally got around to finishing our yardwork so we were outside most of the day. Lita just now discovered that if she goes behind the garage the fenceline is shared with our neighbor's yard. Our neighbor with 2 barky, barky dogs. She will mostly ignore them most of the time, but since her discovery this weekend, she has started heading back to that fence area on patrol. If they are out, she will run up and down along with fenceline, rubbing her face against the chainlink. I haven't seen her does this myself yet, so I'm not sure if this is an aggressive move or if she actually wants to play. She has been brought inside 3 times this weekend with bloody spots on her muzzle. Once this behavior starts, she doesn't respond at all. She just becomes completely fixated/agitated/whatever and doesn't hear anything. I'm just not sure how to deal with this at all. Obviously we can't be out watching her all the time. And unfortunately, our neighbor dogs are what we like to call "yard dogs" (they don't get walks), so harassing our dog is one source of entertainment. We try not to let her out when they are out, but again, not always possible. How to deal with this? 

Yes, we need to work on "come" still. But I don't think that once she reaches this state, it will work. I'm not sure anything will. So, prevent her from reaching this state. Would desensitization work here? Like, put her on a leash and sit her near the fence with the neighbor dogs out and barking at her??? My husband is getting frustrated having to trek outside after her because she won't come back in. He spoke about putting another fence up, but, not only would that look ridiculous (to have a fence running down the middle of our yard), it's also not very practical. I'm sure that training can help here. But how?

Geez, long post! Any ideas would be appreciated. Have a good Thanksgiving everyone. Keep those pooches away from all the holiday goodies.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KB - Interesting point about shy vs. fearful. I am by nature an introvert. Contrary to popular belief, that doesn't mean that I lack social skills. Ha! It simply means that I get my energy from being alone and reading a good book - or having dinner with 1 or 2 good friends. I can and have gone to parties with lots of people but it's not my first choice and I'm exhausted afterwards.

On the other hand, I really think at heart Mayzie is an extrovert. She just loves people but I think her lack of early socialization (and perhaps past experiences before we got her) have made her a little fearful of people she's just met. If she has the opportunity to get to know them for a few minutes, she is Miss Social Butterfly. Not shy in the least. So in this case, I think it is her fear that is keeping her from being who she really is.

Back to the border collie example, I think that dogs who are genetically "cautious," don't necessarily have to become fearful. But again, I think that it's REALLY important to socialize those dogs in a positive way early and often. And from the other fearful dog group I belong to, it seems that sometimes you can do everything right from puppyhood and still end up with a dog that is just genetically hardwired to be fearful. To me, that would be really hard and frustrating to deal with because I think I would feel like a failure, even though it wasn't my fault. And also because those are the kinds of dogs that you can really have an uphill battle with in regards to CC/DS.

Cuddlebug - I think you're going to have to go through a desensitization/counter conditioning process with your 2 neighbor dogs. Basically you need to end up with "neighbor dogs acting like idiots = yummy treats = I LOVE the neighbor dogs!" As KB mentioned above, you have to work toward changing her emotional response to those dogs. I'm working on this right now with both our dogs and the new dog next door. It is coming along verrrrrry slowly. I have a terrier that thinks he's the boss of the world and since Mayzie follows his lead, she's right there with him going, "yeah! What he said!" I really think the key is to monitor their interactions and if you can't be there to monitor, you need to do whatever you can to ensure that she doesn't have any interactions with them at all. Remember - dogs get better at behaviors they practice. Both behaviors we want and behaviors we don't.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Someone learned leave it 










We were really struggling with teaching him things. He shuts down really easily, but lately we've had good luck with "Leave it" and "Touch"


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Someone learned leave it
> 
> We were really struggling with teaching him things. He shuts down really easily, but lately we've had good luck with "Leave it" and "Touch"


Wow, now that's temptation!

Was he whining? If that was Wally, he'd leave it, but he'd be whining and looking at the fries, then me like "Okay, um, can I get 'em now?"

Of course, I have to mess with him and make them move around, or start eating them, and he look at me like "oh come on. Really? You're really doing that?"

Interestingly enough, "Touch" and "Leave it" were ones Wally got really quick also. Touch literally was the key to beginning to overcome his fears.



ColoradoSooner said:


> KB - Interesting point about shy vs. fearful. I am by nature an introvert. Contrary to popular belief, that doesn't mean that I lack social skills. Ha! It simply means that I get my energy from being alone and reading a good book - or having dinner with 1 or 2 good friends. I can and have gone to parties with lots of people but it's not my first choice and I'm exhausted afterwards.


Always nice to meet a fellow introvert! 




ColoradoSooner said:


> On the other hand, I really think at heart Mayzie is an extrovert. She just loves people but I think her lack of early socialization (and perhaps past experiences before we got her) have made her a little fearful of people she's just met. If she has the opportunity to get to know them for a few minutes, she is Miss Social Butterfly. Not shy in the least. So in this case, I think it is her fear that is keeping her from being who she really is.


That might mean it's easier to "see the fear" in extroverted dogs? I guess that's also like in people. Introverts do tend to keep things to themselves so it's hard to tell if they are just being withdrawn/uninterested or are avoiding due to insecurity/nervousness/fear. It's clear as day for the extroverted dogs, like you mention with Mayzie.

This is probably where body language comes into play. I wonder if introverted/shy dogs use body language signals differently than extroverted dogs? For example, would a confident I (introvert) and E (extrovert) dog both use the same signals in a similar situation. Hmm...




ColoradoSooner said:


> Back to the border collie example, I think that dogs who are genetically "cautious," don't necessarily have to become fearful. But again, I think that it's REALLY important to socialize those dogs in a positive way early and often. And from the other fearful dog group I belong to, it seems that sometimes you can do everything right from puppyhood and still end up with a dog that is just genetically hardwired to be fearful. To me, that would be really hard and frustrating to deal with because I think I would feel like a failure, even though it wasn't my fault. And also because those are the kinds of dogs that you can really have an uphill battle with in regards to CC/DS.



Wow, so I guess breeding for caution/aloof demeanor makes it more easy for them to fall into fearfulness either through the handler's actions or through nature's randomness. Makes sense, but yeah, that would be really frustrating for me too. Maybe that's where the medicine/supplements side becomes a very strong necessity - otherwise there's no way in to reach them?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Wow, now that's temptation!
> 
> Was he whining? If that was Wally, he'd leave it, but he'd be whining and looking at the fries, then me like "Okay, um, can I get 'em now?"
> 
> ...


Nope! No whining here. He just sat and had a blank expression, but the minute I said "Oh good leave it!" he'd wag his entire body and look at me. 

I did leave out the last part, where he snatched one quickly and ran away. We're still learning.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

KB - You really posed an interesting question about introverted and extroverted dogs. Seems like that would make a great study or doctoral thesis. I have no real answers for you, though.  Thinking about my two dogs - Ranger is much more reserved/aloof, although not fearful. But when meeting people, his whole body language is one of "You do know that I could not care less about you, right? Yes, I will tolerate your petting but could you make it fast? I have important things to sniff." On the other hand, Mayzie's is more, "Oh my gosh! A person. Did you see that? It's a person! Should we say hi? Cause I'd like to say hi. But what if they don't like me? Maybe we shouldn't say hi...just in case, you know, they don't like me. But on the other hand, they might like me. I don't know. What do you think?"

On the other hand, there are things that Mayzie is obviously terrified of and has no interest in checking out...although she is getting better about it. She seems to be a very curious dog and more and more often, I've noticed that her curiosity overcomes her fear.

ThoseWords - I can't see your video (?) here at work (yes - I'm actually supposed to be working) but congrats on the "leave it." Funny story with Mayzie. We've been working with her on leave it for months now and she is rock solid on it. During our last obedience class, "leave it" was one of the things they tested us on. So, when it came our turn, I confidently tossed the treat on the floor with a nonchalant "leave it" and whoosh! Mayzie immediately swooped in and gobbled it up! I just stared at her dumbfounded because I couldn't believe it. She just looked up at me like, "What? I thought you said, 'eat it.' " 

She got a zero on that section but sailed through the rest so we passed. But boy, does this girl ever keep me on my toes. Ha!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Nope! No whining here. He just sat and had a blank expression, but the minute I said "Oh good leave it!" he'd wag his entire body and look at me.
> 
> I did leave out the last part, where he snatched one quickly and ran away. We're still learning.


LOL

Dogs are thieves of the first order if given half a chance!



ColoradoSooner said:


> KB - You really posed an interesting question about introverted and extroverted dogs. Seems like that would make a great study or doctoral thesis. I have no real answers for you, though.  Thinking about my two dogs - Ranger is much more reserved/aloof, although not fearful. But when meeting people, his whole body language is one of "You do know that I could not care less about you, right? Yes, I will tolerate your petting but could you make it fast? I have important things to sniff." On the other hand, Mayzie's is more, "Oh my gosh! A person. Did you see that? It's a person! Should we say hi? Cause I'd like to say hi. But what if they don't like me? Maybe we shouldn't say hi...just in case, you know, they don't like me. But on the other hand, they might like me. I don't know. What do you think?"


Heh - talk about a contrast in personalities! 

Wally gets into people...partly because he's trying to see if they have food on them. And if they do...guess who's your new best friend? LOL. He's like "I love ya and all, but he has FOOD! I know we should keep walking, but...didn't you see that FOOD in his hand?" I guess I know what role he'd have in a pack - he's the food-finder LOL

Now dogs, he (now) wants to go interact with them. I'm having to learn more about what's rude in canine because when he barks in a dog's face, I'm like "be nice!" but the other dog is like "do that again!"  It's interesting, though, because there's this one puppy he won't bark at, but whine at if the pup whines at Wally. I wonder why...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> There's a difference between shy and fearful, though.
> 
> Skyness is more a personality trait, just like a shy person isn't necessarily scared of people, just tends to be less likely to approach/be outgoing when meeting unfamilar people.


Though I do lump shy and fearful together a lot of times (usually unfairly), the reason I included both in my last post was because you stated that you didn't know if he was truly "fearful" anymore, not because I was equating them with one another. 

Marge hasn't been so bad these days.. we've continued our night walks, some short, some long depending on the activity level outside. She was dead set on going down an unfamiliar side street last night.. I stopped her because *I* was scared. Go figure.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Marge hasn't been so bad these days.. we've continued our night walks, some short, some long depending on the activity level outside. She was dead set on going down an unfamiliar side street last night.. I stopped her because *I* was scared. Go figure.



Glad to hear Marge has been having some decent walks, especially at night. 

Yeah, I've done that before. Usually, Wally's interested in what's going on because he sees people running and the movement gets him curious, and I'd rather we just minded our business and got back inside if it looks particularly questionable. Interesting reversal isn't it


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Glad to hear Marge has been having some decent walks, especially at night.
> 
> Yeah, I've done that before. Usually, Wally's interested in what's going on because he sees people running and the movement gets him curious, and I'd rather we just minded our business and got back inside if it looks particularly questionable. Interesting reversal isn't it


Yeah, it's one of those things that doesn't make any sense. It's like, why can't we just walk down the main road, where NOTHING will bother you, instead of the side street where something scary is bound to pop out and scare you in a few minutes? 

How I wish they could understand English sometimes..


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Cuddlebug - I think you're going to have to go through a desensitization/counter conditioning process with your 2 neighbor dogs. Basically you need to end up with "neighbor dogs acting like idiots = yummy treats = I LOVE the neighbor dogs!" As KB mentioned above, you have to work toward changing her emotional response to those dogs. I'm working on this right now with both our dogs and the new dog next door. It is coming along verrrrrry slowly. I have a terrier that thinks he's the boss of the world and since Mayzie follows his lead, she's right there with him going, "yeah! What he said!" I really think the key is to monitor their interactions and if you can't be there to monitor, you need to do whatever you can to ensure that she doesn't have any interactions with them at all. Remember - dogs get better at behaviors they practice. Both behaviors we want and behaviors we don't.


Makes perfect sense. We have not allowed her outside again unsupervised since these encounters. My husband will become quite disgruntled about this in the coming months when it gets colder. I can see it already, "Having to supervise our dog full-time in our own backyard, ridiculous!" And I'd have to agree with him. Perhaps we will consider a tie out system for the quick potty breaks between walks. Then she won't be able to charge the fence and the husband won't have to put his shoes and coat on everytime she needs to potty. 

It's funny and awesome to me that we can get her to completely ignore the obnoxious dogs when we're outside with her. She just can't tear herself away when she's on her own.

VERY interesting discussion about shy versus fearful going on. I guess I tend to think of them a bit differently in that (in my brain, anyway) shy means more timid, standoffish, but fearful can easily lead to a fight or flight response. 

ThoseWordsatBest--VERY impressive photograph!!! We have just started leave it training. I was excited when Lita would leave her rawhide for a few seconds, we haven't worked up to french fry training yet! Do you all consider a good stare down, but not actually *touching* anything as an adequate "leave it"? Or prefer the dog to back away and/or look away eventually? 

MissMutt--I think my girl is actually LESS fearful at night. Less things to distract her, I guess? The birds and squirrels are all in bed by then! 

Thanks for the input as usual, gang.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cuddlebug910 said:


> ThoseWordsatBest--VERY impressive photograph!!! We have just started leave it training. I was excited when Lita would leave her rawhide for a few seconds, we haven't worked up to french fry training yet! Do you all consider a good stare down, but not actually *touching* anything as an adequate "leave it"? Or prefer the dog to back away and/or look away eventually?


As long as he doesn't touch it, I'm happy even if he stares. He's so good at touch and leave it that I can have him touch a fry with his nose and he won't eat it. I think we'll stay with this for a while and maybe amp it up to having him pay complete attention to me and forget the treat all together. 

Also, happy fourth birthday Jonas! You are my little hot pocket. Please grow very old.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

cuddlebug910 said:


> Do you all consider a good stare down, but not actually *touching* anything as an adequate "leave it"? Or prefer the dog to back away and/or look away eventually?


I prefer the dog to divert his attention totally away from whatever it is and look at me. He doesn't have to back up, though he will if he's sniffing something and I tell him leave it, but I don't want him still peering at whatever it is. He can't look at me and get whatever it is off the ground at the same time. 

I want him looking at me in case I need to give him another direction and also to show me he's actually listening. Plus, he can always use the practice at focusing on me.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

OK experts... I have done this plenty, but I want some others' ideas.

I got back a dog after two years. He was fine before being dried with the power dryer, and he LOVED baths and slept when I used the grinder on his nails. You can imagine my shock when he flipped out in the tub and I had to sit on him to bathe him (I had too, he was disgustingly filthy when I took him back, and covered in parasites). Then, he freaked out royally at the dryer (no I didn't try it that day!). Same with the grinder. He lets me clip his nails. So it's the sound- of the shower (he loves water, swims all the time), of the dryer, of the grinder. 

So... what the heck? I want to groom out my dog. I bathe and blow dry and nail grind my dogs weekly. They sleep in my bed and go in public constantly. They are 100% house dogs. 

BTW he is well adjusted, gaining weight, happy, normal, playful, cuddly, and gets along great with my pack. He is neutered. I had him from 4 months until 14 months then he was gone for two years. He was very afraid of toddlers from babyhood on, but is totally fine with my son, and has "grown with" my son's transformation from fairly quiet baby to squealing, laughing eight month old, and has pretty much chilled. He only backs up when large numbers of kids rush him.

I am not concerned with the child situation at all. I just want to groom him to my standards weekly. BTW I think I mentioned it, but he is not foot sensitive. He lets me cut his nails and trim his feet without incident. He also will stand very close while I bathe, dry out, or nail grind the other four dogs. Close enough to touch me, often.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hm... very strange. What does if he do if the shower is on with him in the bathroom (no other dogs present) but not in the tub? Or if he's in the tub with no water running? (Is it possible to bathe him with just water in the tub for now and not any streams of water hitting him?)

Even though he doesn't mind seeing the other dogs get their nails done, you could also try leaving the grinder on near him while he eats his meals and see how he responds to that.

Since it's extremely situational you might want to look into some sort of calming supplement like Rescue Remedy or DAP to give him before you need to groom him.. it could help take the edge off. I don't know how you feel about meds but if your vet is willing to prescribe alprazolam that could work too..


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

He stands beside the tub and licks me and even the dog getting bathed! Crazy huh?

He is not foody. He is a very poor eater. Sadly food won't help. He wouldn't eat if anything that frightened him was anywhere near him. He does eat four cups per day of top quality kibble, and raw on some days, but only if he's crated with me in the room and no distractions 

Contrast that to Holiday, who eats even antibiotics with such zest that I can use her cephalexin as training treats *eyeroll*

It is bizarre, right? I mean I "pet him" with the grinder and the dryer off, and he is fine. Minute it's on and touching him, he hauls ass.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

What's bizarre is that the sound only bothers him if it's HIM being groomed. I've never heard of such a specific sound phobia before..


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hello all...

Interesting that we were recently having the nature vs. nurture conversation about our fearful dogs and I stumbled upon this website:

http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.com/

Have any of you seen this before. An excerpt from their home page:



> The Canine Behavioral Genetics Project is based in the laboratory of Dr. Steven Hamilton in the Department of Psychiatry and Institute for Human Genetics at the University of California, San Francisco. The goals of this project are:
> 
> To explore the relationship between genes and behavior, both normal and abnormal, in domestic dogs.
> 
> To assess the amount and nature of genetic diversity in domestic dogs, both within and between breeds.


This in an ongoing study and they are looking for dogs to participate.



> Specifically, we are looking for:
> 
> Behaviorally affected dogs: Dogs that suffer or appear to suffer from panic, fear, anxiety, compulsive behaviors, and aggression. Examples of such behaviors include (but are not limited to) separation anxiety, noise phobias, fears of people, places, or other dogs, and aggression toward people or other dogs.


 Looks like they send you a swab kit and then you fill out a questionnaire online regarding your dogs' behavioral issues. Looks very interesting and I think I may order a kit for Mayzie. 

Just thought you all might be interested in this and possibly participating as well!


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Oh I misread. I just took a shower. All my others stayed asleep on my bed. He got up and laid on the bathmat right outside the door.

He flips if I put him in the tub, because he knows what is coming. I have a mat down, so it is not slippery.

Oh, btw... 

If I give him ace a few times, do you think he would learn nothing bad happens? He is pretty good while I soap him up.

I will happily participate in the study with my two SA dogs. Both are "cured" but I believe it is genetic.

I just submitted the request for the study!


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

Hi FoyerHawk,

ACE has really fallen out of favor for treating fearful dogs. What they have found is that, although dogs may not show the outward signs (because they are tranquilized), they are still aware and quite fearful of their trigger.

Here's a good article on it: http://www.fearfuldogs.com/acearticle.html

More people are using meds like xanax or valium. It allows the dog to relax but does not actually tranquilize the dog. You might talk to you vet about prescribing something like this while you work through your dog's fear with counter conditioning and desensitization.

Glad to hear you signed up for the study. I'm glad someone is delving into that link more closely!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> Hello all...
> 
> Interesting that we were recently having the nature vs. nurture conversation about our fearful dogs and I stumbled upon this website:
> 
> http://www.k9behavioralgenetics.com/


Huh. How interesting.

I might ask for a kit and submit Wally's samples.

Sounds like a small amount of effort (though Wally is probably going to be all like "what's that thing you are sticking in my mouth?!" and trying to sniff it...and probably try to eat it...) to help further scientific knowledge.

Wonder if they'll have many Cotons in their samples. Might be reason enough for me to do one to help them with their 50 dogs per breed goal.

Edit: Just saw their breed count - not only less than 10 Cotons - they aren't even listed. Yeah, I'm going to request a kit.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Separation Anxiety is rampant in Whippets of most lines. Anyone who denies it is in denial, keeps their dogs in a run all the time, or has never lived with a normal dog. Not ALL Whippets have SA, but a HUGE percentage do, and many have severe (dangerous) crate anxiety. I'd love to prove and explore the genetic link there. Mine is fine now, and he's never needed a crate. He's 12 now. But he did have SA from the day I bought him.

I ordered the blood sample kit, as they say it is preferred.

I take Klonopin. I had no idea they can give Benzos to dogs!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yup Foyer, the benzodiazepines are becoming increasingly popular and vets are moving away from the more traditional stuff like ace. Ace doesn't really lessen the fear, it just kind of zonks the dog out.

Hm, that study looks interesting. I don't want to bring Marge in to the vet again for blood, so maybe I'll do a cheek swab.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I am assuming I can take the blood myself- hopefully  None of my dogs are afraid of the vet, but I know the vet would charge me *eyeroll*


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## JLWillow (Jul 21, 2009)

I just wanted to pop a question out there for anyone here to answer. Any help and advice would be nice.  (I rhymed!) I just want to know if how I handled the situation was okay or not, and if there's anything I can do to improve it.

Willow is timid with other dogs. We have managed to make one doggy friend, but we rarely ever see him and when she tries to play with him, he won't. She has an easier time of getting used to people than dogs, but I know that over time it's possible for her to get used to a dog. She loves to meet people and dogs, but afterwards she wants to get away and be left alone.

I recently went to a friends house, and they have the kindest Golden I've ever met. He's very sweet, and gentle with toddlers and smaller dogs. The thing is, Willow would not let him sniff her. After a while of watching Willow run away from him, I figured if I sat down, she'd feel safer. I sat down and she came to me, and I got her to sit. I was able to get her to sit still and have him sniff her, but she didn't like it. She growled and showed teeth, but I corrected her and got her to stop. I sat there for a while, and made sure to pet her and praise her every time he came by and she didn't try to get away, and every time he sniffed her and she didn't try to get away. This is only the first encounter, so I'm hoping to bring her more often so she can get used to him and she can finally have a play mate!

Should I not have pet her during those times? Should I have treated her instead? Should I not have sat down with her? Thanks!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

If she's doing what you want her to do, by all means pet/treat her. It will help explain to her what you want her to do and how you want her to react.

I would have done the same thing. Re-direct her from the growing, have her perform another behavior instead and reward that when she complies and even more when she's being investigated by the other dog. (wouldn't necessarily correct it because I want growling first instead of going straight to lunge/biting - and supposedly correcting growling can make a dog stop giving that "warning shot". It might be just me, but I want him to give me all his "I'm getting annoyed at/don't feel good about this situation" signals)

Working on that myself with Wally. He'll sniff, but he tends not to want to be sniffed. So when he accepts being sniffed, even if he doesn't seem to LIKE it, but just accept it as a formality - he gets rewarded. Usually, I pet him and praise him softly (don't want to get him all riled up and excited. If I happen to have my treats and/or clicker handy, I'll c/t him instead). 

Going with my usual strategy with him. From dislike -> tolerance -> love. Right now, we're working on tolerance 

For a first encounter, I'd say it went pretty well and you did well.


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## JLWillow (Jul 21, 2009)

KBLover said:


> (wouldn't necessarily correct it because I want growling first instead of going straight to lunge/biting - and supposedly correcting growling can make a dog stop giving that "warning shot". It might be just me, but I want him to give me all his "I'm getting annoyed at/don't feel good about this situation" signals)


I am paranoid that she'll stop growling in all situations, but I honestly doubt it. I didn't want to wait until it got to the point in which she'll lunge at him, and I thought it might help her to understand that she really isn't in any danger in that situation and that reaction isn't necessary. I'unno, maybe I'm wrong.  Next time I'll call her name cheerily and if she pays attention me instead, I'll reward her.  That sounds like a better plan.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JLWillow said:


> I am paranoid that she'll stop growling in all situations, but I honestly doubt it. I didn't want to wait until it got to the point in which she'll lunge at him, and I thought it might help her to understand that she really isn't in any danger in that situation and that reaction isn't necessary. I'unno, maybe I'm wrong.  Next time I'll call her name cheerily and if she pays attention me instead, I'll reward her.  That sounds like a better plan.


Yeah, and it still will convey the same meaning. Perhaps even better. A correction just tells the dog to stop doing whatever it was. Calling her would just redirect her attention and sort of "short circuit" the mindset. Plus it might get her looking at you when she feels uneasy, and then you could direct her.

Another thing you could do is get between Willow and the other dog. That's a calming signal and also breaks visual contact which often disrupts the thought process as well, especially if you make eye contact with Willow. She'll probably watch your eyes, thinking you want something from her.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

A heads up. The survey I had to answer had me shaking. It was incredibly upsetting to me. It asked some 30 or more questions about how your dog responds when beaten with fists, a bat, hit with a chain, kicked, aggressively alpha rolled, strung up on the leash (all feet off ground) and other blatant and heinous (and in my state, illegal) forms of animal abuse. Naturally, I could not answer any of those, so left them blank, since I am not a dog abuser.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Foyerhawk said:


> A heads up. The survey I had to answer had me shaking. It was incredibly upsetting to me. It asked some 30 or more questions about how your dog responds when beaten with fists, a bat, hit with a chain, kicked, aggressively alpha rolled, strung up on the leash (all feet off ground) and other blatant and heinous (and in my state, illegal) forms of animal abuse. Naturally, I could not answer any of those, so left them blank, since I am not a dog abuser.


OMG - that's from the study?

If I take it I'm going to contact them and complain!


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Yup, it also asked how your dog responds when OTHER people abuse it in those ways. I don't know about the dog, but I know how *I* would respond!!! I'm still going to participate, but I did let them know in a note that it triggered the hell out of me as a dog rescue person who has seen much abuse, and as a victim of abuse myself. I cannot deal with that stuff! And especially not when it pops up like that, totally unexpected. It was the section detailing what you have tried to modify the dog's behavior, and how it as worked. It did include some like "Give food rewards" and "Praise for good behavior" which of course I could reply to


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Foyerhawk said:


> A heads up. The survey I had to answer had me shaking. It was incredibly upsetting to me. It asked some 30 or more questions about how your dog responds when beaten with fists, a bat, hit with a chain, kicked, aggressively alpha rolled, strung up on the leash (all feet off ground) and other blatant and heinous (and in my state, illegal) forms of animal abuse. Naturally, I could not answer any of those, so left them blank, since I am not a dog abuser.



I think they are trying to cover the bases, i.e. if someone mentions they are have behavioral problems, and the handler takes this survey mentioning they they are abusive/aggressive/overly physical with the dog, it could frame what they are looking for, or try to find why dog A might respond with aggression while dog B becomes an insecure mess of a dog.

After all, it is a study and any study should include as many types as possible, and they don't know if they'll get a bunch of R+ trainers or a bunch of correction-oriented trainers or what.

Edit: After seeing your second post - yeah, they are just trying to get the picture of how the dog-handler interaction goes, probably to try to find influences outside of the dog's genes and categorize backgrounds vs genes vs dog's reactions.

I don't think I'm going to complain about it - it's a study and they are fact-finding. They don't know what they'll get and I'd rather all dogs genes/samples be considered.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

True. I just wanted to let others who might be upset by questions asking how your dog respends when "hit with a bat, plank, or other heavy object" and so forth. It just shocked me is all


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## JLWillow (Jul 21, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Yeah, and it still will convey the same meaning. Perhaps even better. A correction just tells the dog to stop doing whatever it was. Calling her would just redirect her attention and sort of "short circuit" the mindset. Plus it might get her looking at you when she feels uneasy, and then you could direct her.
> 
> Another thing you could do is get between Willow and the other dog. That's a calming signal and also breaks visual contact which often disrupts the thought process as well, especially if you make eye contact with Willow. She'll probably watch your eyes, thinking you want something from her.


Thanks, and yeah I will definitely try those things next time, and hopefully it'll make it a more positive experience.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving. Poca and I are exhausted and enjoying a nice quiet day at home while DH is at work. Yesterday was 1,000% better than last year for our girl. She only barked a little bit and even sniffed some of the people she has always found a bit scary. And she was snatching turkey from anyone offering. She didn't mingle as much as I would have liked and she's still very obviously unnerved by all the noise, but I'm so happy to see such improvement. Just 100 more parties to go and she'll be just fine!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanksgiving went smoothly here. It was really nice out so Tiberius and Casanova spent the day outside while Mom and I got stuff ready for Turkey Day Lunch. We had a couple of my brother's friends over, and Tiberius got to watch them from his tie out in the yard. Tonight, he went out and pottied, then ran around with Casanova off leash. I called his name, said "inside." He trotted up the stairs and waited by the door til I let him in.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius survived his first actual bath!! He has had rinse downs and has gone swimming since I got him in march, but today was his first full bath with soap and all. Getting him in he shower was hard (we only have a standing shower stall), but after that is was easy. I kept treating him with pieces of bologna, and telling him he was a good boy. He looks 1000 times better. I'll have pics posted later.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Nice! Bath time can be such a pain, I know. Think I'll try bologna on Poca's next bath...


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

I was really impressed with Ti. I had to pick him up to get him in the shower, but after that he was fine. Even stood like a gentleman while I towel dried him and brushed his coat. Of course, he loves getting brushed anyway, so that part is always easy.
Winniec, I find Bologna or all beef hot dogs work best with Tiberius if I don't have any of his absolute favorite goodies on hand. May try them with Poca too


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I will. We've been using peanut butter but I think it's actually distracting in the shower.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius isn't big on Peanut Butter. His favorite treats are this things I get called Hollywood Stars dog treats. They are made with Chicken liver and come in Yogurt or Liver flavor. Tiberius is a sucker for the Yogurt ones. They come in something looking like a milk carton, I move that and he comes running. I am out, so I opted for bologna..worked like a charm.

now comes my next big obstacle...Christmas. I am taking him with me to my Dad's...which is an hour away. I'm not worried about the car ride, he does wonderfully in the car. I am worried about how he will react to my dad and his wife. My dad is a tall man but quiet and easy going. His wife is a bit on the louder side, and outgoing...I am pretty sure Tiberius will be hiding in the kitchen the whole time (or his crate since I'll probably take it).


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Christmas...

I just hope Wally doesn't try to pee on the tree again...


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

That is one of my fears as well KB. This is Tiberius's first Christmas indoors with the family. I am excited and nervous to see how he handles the tree, and the lights and the gifts. At least the only new people he will be meeting are my dad and his wife. 

On another more silly note, since his shower yesterday, everytime I go near the bathroom Tiberius will go sit next to the bathroom door. I think he is hoping for more bologna that may be hiding in there...


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## TexasRanger (Jul 27, 2008)

Zane is my first dog with a fear based problem. He is terrified of all other people except me and my parents. When we first took him to the vet, he became a trembling ball of fear. We are slowly getting him to except other people. He has so far allowed my grandpa to touch him, stayed in the same room as my uncle, and sniffed Deputy's old owner.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

TexasRanger said:


> Zane is my first dog with a fear based problem. He is terrified of all other people except me and my parents. When we first took him to the vet, he became a trembling ball of fear. We are slowly getting him to except other people. He has so far allowed my grandpa to touch him, stayed in the same room as my uncle, and sniffed Deputy's old owner.


It's a long road, but good luck! This thread is crazy full of great ways of reintroducing dogs to people. Sometimes they bounce right back, like Jack did. He was terrified of even us for about a month, and then he was everyone's friend.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

TexasRanger - yup, like TWAB implied, I think you've come to the right place.  Right now, you should probably refrain from having people pet him, but, by all means, let them throw him lots of yummy treats! He'll warm up as he gets more comfortable.

TWAB - how is Jonas these days? Did you get medication for him?

I'm actually NOT worried about Christmas because we don't have it here.. we tend to have all the smaller holidays, like 4th of July, Mother's Day and little weird ones like that, so THOSE are the really hard days around here.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> TWAB - how is Jonas these days? Did you get medication for him?


Oh, I'm sorry I never updated. I know it's silly because it's not something that I have any control over, but I felt like I failed Jonas because we had to start medicating. Obviously not true, but I went to the vet and cried and cried about how anxious I was about starting him on something.  I filled out a HUGE questionaire about his behavior and went back again and she decided his aggression/fear based issues are so severe that Fluoxetine (he's still low dosage right now, 10 mg) was necessary, especially with his past traumas. It's only been about two weeks now, and so far blood work has come back fine, so we're going to continue and see how things develop. 

I can't necessarily attribute it to the medication because it's still early, but he had a very positive day at my boyfriend's parent's house (strangers came in at two different times and he did not so much as bark at them, just continued to chew his squeaker) and when my boyfriend's dad was petting him and stopped for a moment, he actually stood up and wagged his tail quite furiously 

I'm not sure if I had mentioned it, but he had recently become very reactive to other dogs when he wasn't previously. I'm beginning to admit that he may very well be DA, or at the very least dog selective. He had started snapping at several neighborhood dogs when they came close. But during a recent visit to PetSmart he sniffed a few dogs and had no negative reaction. He is a constant mystery.


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## cuddlebug910 (Sep 28, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I'm not sure if I had mentioned it, but he had recently become very reactive to other dogs when he wasn't previously. I'm beginning to admit that he may very well be DA, or at the very least dog selective. He had started snapping at several neighborhood dogs when they came close. But during a recent visit to PetSmart he sniffed a few dogs and had no negative reaction. He is a constant mystery.


Once again, it's comforting to see that others are having the same problems as me! Sorry for your sake!!! Lita is still a mystery to us as well. She'll charge the fence/lunge/hard stare the neighbor dogs. But recently, on walks, she actually begins whining when she sees other dogs. Not sure what this is! Thankfully, I have finally found a trainer in my area (a MUCH longer search than I had anticipated) and she will be evaluated on Saturday. It's only our first meeting, so I'm not sure that we'll be trying dog introductions. It will just be such a relief to hear a professional's opinion. We've made improvements in the time she's been with us, but there's always more that can be done. I can't wait! But at the same time, part of me is VERY nervous about this meeting! What if my pooch is deemed broken??  Oh, my pride!


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## a2area (Nov 12, 2009)

I have a 6 year old Rat Terrier named Dax. Unfortunately I bought him at a pet store which I will never do again now that I know some of the horror behind that whole racket. Anyhow, I am glad I did get him as he's my little pal and we've successfully beaten (not literally) most of his fear-based behavior problems out of him with time and (not so much) consistency on my part 

He was 5 months old when I got him and pretty shy. He took to me fairly quickly but I noticed right away that he screamed bloody murder if you pick him up (especially) from a standing position. Not afraid of hands per se but he hates to be picked up point blank and would pee everywhere if you did. He still hates it and may pee. I thought it was a physical problem but the vet said there was no sign of anything wrong and it's likely just fear. I really hadn't worked with him much on this before since i felt so horrified about it and didn't feel like getting peed on all the time. As of lately I am considering it as he responds well to treat "therapy".

_The concern I really want to address here is this:_ *When I eat he becomes literally petrified and an expression of horror will be frozen on his face. His body will freeze and he will cower and stare at me from wherever he is in the room.* If I try to ease him with words "it's okay Daxy.. good boy" it just makes it worse.. you can see him calculating whether or not he can make it to the safety of his bed without getting killed or something. This is very disturbing to me as it makes me feel like a monster. I thought maybe this is the "alpha male" eating order/pack mentality coming through but even so.. it bothers me. He will be a mess for a full day afterward sometimes. If i share it makes it better only for the moment but his "mood" continues to some degree for hours to even the rest of the day. This behavior is most marked if i eat at my computer desk but to some extent anytime I eat AT ALL. I feel i should also add that often times, when i am on my computer he acts as if i am mad at him so when i take time out to visit and reassure him or play he is too nervous to do so and cowers then hides.

All this sounds so bizarrely different from his "normal" active personality. Almost any other time he is super friendly and loves me to death. We walk daily and that is a must to keep him emotionally even. For some reason these situations have a doom-and-gloom effect on his mood and i'm not sure what to do short of not eating with him around, which i generally try to do now anyway.

Anyone have any insight on this or maybe some tips on how to go address the issue? I'd be so grateful as this little thing is a smudge on our relationship. There are some other pesky hangups he has that i will address (i have some too but that's for another forum or my psychologist  ) at another time.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

a2area - What an interesting situation you have on your hands! When did this start? Can you think of anything that originally triggered it?

First, the reaction you're describing is NOT an "alpha dog" reaction. For whatever reason, your dog is very afraid and being "alpha" never enters into a fearful dog's equation.

Second, I think counter-conditioning/desensitization would work very well for your problem. The first step is to not eat any actual meals around him right now, which it sounds like you're avoiding anyway.

You need to break this down into chunks and change his emotional association with your eating into something good. What's the first thing that freaks him out? Is it bringing your plate into the computer room? Sitting down with your plate? Lifting your fork? Actually putting food in your mouth and chewing? Whatever it is that sets him off, you want to start at the step BEFORE that (what is called being under threshold).

So, say, he gets freaked out first when you sit down with your plate, but he's okay with you bringing the plate into the room. Start with bringing the plate into the room (doesn't have to actually have food on it at this point), drop some sort of yummy, OMG-amazing treat that he wouldn't normally get, then walk out of the room with the plate. Do this several times until he is absolutely thrilled when he sees you walking into the room with the plate.

Then try sitting with the plate. Drop OMG-amazing treat then immediately get up and walk out. Repeating until he's happy (or at least comfortable) about it.

Next,you pick up the fork and repeat above.

So you keep breaking down the behavior into small increments. Of course, this is going to take more than one day. You may have to work for awhile (days, weeks?) on one thing before you move to the next. The important thing is if you EVER see him get that horrible look on his face, you back up to the prior step and do that some more.

It sounds like a slow, tedious process - and yes, it can be - but I promise you that the rewards are HUGE. Whatever you do, don't try to rush it. Patience, patience and more patience is key.

Good luck!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

a2area said:


> _The concern I really want to address here is this:_ *When I eat he becomes literally petrified and an expression of horror will be frozen on his face. His body will freeze and he will cower and stare at me from wherever he is in the room.* If I try to ease him with words "it's okay Daxy.. good boy" it just makes it worse.. you can see him calculating whether or not he can make it to the safety of his bed without getting killed or something. This is very disturbing to me as it makes me feel like a monster. I thought maybe this is the "alpha male" eating order/pack mentality coming through but even so.. it bothers me. He will be a mess for a full day afterward sometimes. If i share it makes it better only for the moment but his "mood" continues to some degree for hours to even the rest of the day. This behavior is most marked if i eat at my computer desk but to some extent anytime I eat AT ALL. I feel i should also add that often times, when i am on my computer he acts as if i am mad at him so when i take time out to visit and reassure him or play he is too nervous to do so and cowers then hides.



Wally did this EXACT same thing with me. He would shake and pant and be totally out of it staring at his food bowl. It wasn't the bowl because he'll it out of it just fine by his crate. But if I touched that bowl, he will NOT eat from it and will be scared to death of doing so. He didn't use to do this, and then suddenly he started doing this more and more. I know it's not an "alpha" thing, but the more we started working together and training him and teaching him more things, the more he started doing this, which baffled me. We were getting closer and bonding, but then he's scared when I offer him food?

It got so bad that I just had him go to his crate to pull himself together. If I bring him back in and the food is still there, he'd do the same thing. I thought maybe he had to go out or didn't finish in the walk before dinner, so I took him to use the bathroom - nope. Wasn't it. He would sit next to me and look up at me with his tail all up under him and ears back.

Eventually, I just stopped putting the food out. No sense stressing him out and it's not like he was eating anyway. If there was no food there, he would be fine. He'd look over at me, probably wishing he had something to eat too, but he would go to sleep or drink his water.

I still don't know why he did that, but if I hide his food and let him "find it" then he'll happily and eagerly do it and eat up every bit. So I don't know why it's just the food bowl and just me touching the food bowl. It's not like I don't touch his food with my hand to hide it or carry it out of the bag. Who knows.

I couldn't even try the things ColoradoSooner mentioned because Wally would be too stressed to eat. Hopefully for your dog, her ideas will work out.


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## a2area (Nov 12, 2009)

Thanks for your replies... when i said Alpha dog.. I was referring to me not Dax. I felt that this pack eating dynamic may be the case because I spend soooo much time with him and he sleeps in my studio (where i sleep). Also, he gets a lot of people food from people other than just me... maybe that "feeds" this particular problem/obsession with human food.

Also, he doesn't fear others when they eat. This didn't really "start" it just has been this way in one form or another. The only thing that gradually changes are the conditions or environments in which it becomes more acute depending on my habits at that time.

This basic behavior pattern goes beyond the food thing. It is just a clear manifestation of the problem which runs (i believe) much deeper. Perhaps it is a trust issue although there is no question that he loves me above all else (he makes that clear) but it's almost as if he is afraid to be alone with me or that close-up one on one interaction with me (in certain environments) is just too much for his little nerves. Almost as if (this may sound stupid) I am the all powerful King who can have his head at a whim and he is at my mercy!? For instance; he will feel uncomfortable interacting with me IF he isn't actually ON me... howevert... he loves to lay on my lap and watch a movie and chew his rawhide and will fall asleep on his back in my arms (total trust). Then he feels safe. Almost as if he feels i will hurt him UNLESS he is actually ON my person. Very weird.

This may go back to his puppy-hood.. not sure.. plus i wasn't as patient with him a few years ago because of my life conditions and he became very sensitive to my level of general frustration sometimes inevitably at him (which devastated him). While he was never abused in my care I know he is super-smart and very in-tune with my mood. Add in his own mood swings (which he definitely has and will sometimes wake up "unhappy" on his own even though i am in a great mood) and it sometimes makes for a confusing situation to decipher. Such a sensitive dog may just take a long time to recondition?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cuddlebug910 said:


> Once again, it's comforting to see that others are having the same problems as me! Sorry for your sake!!! Lita is still a mystery to us as well. She'll charge the fence/lunge/hard stare the neighbor dogs. But recently, on walks, she actually begins whining when she sees other dogs. Not sure what this is! Thankfully, I have finally found a trainer in my area (a MUCH longer search than I had anticipated) and she will be evaluated on Saturday. It's only our first meeting, so I'm not sure that we'll be trying dog introductions. It will just be such a relief to hear a professional's opinion. We've made improvements in the time she's been with us, but there's always more that can be done. I can't wait! But at the same time, part of me is VERY nervous about this meeting! What if my pooch is deemed broken??  Oh, my pride!


Oh, I've had Jonas for nearly two years now, so I'm pretty accustomed to expecting the unexpected.  You'll be so happy you found a professional. I don't really know what progress we would have made if not for our behaviorist. While some dogs like Jonas will never be "normal" they're not broken as long as they're somewhere they're understood and loved.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Oh, I'm sorry I never updated. I know it's silly because it's not something that I have any control over, but I felt like I failed Jonas because we had to start medicating. Obviously not true, but I went to the vet and cried and cried about how anxious I was about starting him on something.  I filled out a HUGE questionaire about his behavior and went back again and she decided his aggression/fear based issues are so severe that Fluoxetine (he's still low dosage right now, 10 mg) was necessary, especially with his past traumas. It's only been about two weeks now, and so far blood work has come back fine, so we're going to continue and see how things develop.
> 
> I can't necessarily attribute it to the medication because it's still early, but he had a very positive day at my boyfriend's parent's house (strangers came in at two different times and he did not so much as bark at them, just continued to chew his squeaker) and when my boyfriend's dad was petting him and stopped for a moment, he actually stood up and wagged his tail quite furiously
> 
> I'm not sure if I had mentioned it, but he had recently become very reactive to other dogs when he wasn't previously. I'm beginning to admit that he may very well be DA, or at the very least dog selective. He had started snapping at several neighborhood dogs when they came close. But during a recent visit to PetSmart he sniffed a few dogs and had no negative reaction. He is a constant mystery.


Sorry I haven't responded sooner - I've been so short on time lately. Actually I think it's more a time management problem, but either way, I haven't been here much..

Either way, it sounds like a promising beginning and you're obviously on the right track to getting Jonas back where he used to be. I really admire you for being brave enough to try meds.. I'm still not at that point (though we are talking about two totally different manifestations of fear).

I don't know but from here I'd bet the DA/aggression type stuff is from insecurity around other dogs. I know certain dogs set Marge off immediately, but it's usually a pretty fearful reaction of hackles up and growly/woo-woo-woo barks.


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

Nellie is my fearful girl, I got her from a man that was my neighbor (he had a junky house, you could barely see it, I wasn't even aware he had dogs when he actually had about EIGHT, I NEVER saw him walk or EVEN LET THEM OUT!), and one day I saw he had a puppy, Nellie was the only one left from his accidental litter but what do you expect when you have a houseful of unfixed dogs you dont separate,anyways, I watched him do terrible things to the one puppy he was keeping from his litter, and I called animal control on him, and that is when I started seeing his dogs more was once he knew someone was watching, and anyways I ended up getting Nellie from his becuase he said he was going to drown her, I don't know what he personally did to Nellie but I saw him hit his puppy with a sack of rocks, or chains...something heavy when it "disobeyed", I watched him carry it up the front of his porch by its choke chain, and I watched him kick her ect. (in ALL cases I saw him do these things, I called AC and they never really did anything becuase "there was no evidence") She was so shy and shakey when I got her, very very hand shy when you would go to pet her, scared of ANY loud noise, and when my mother visits, and she sneezes it sends Nellie into hysterics. Almost everything scares the poor girl, shes already six, so shes gotten a lot better but shes still just very wary of anything, and out of all things if shes sees you chewing gum or pop a bubble with it, it scares her to DEATH, she runs from the room and hides under something and shakes.
Anyways, I didn't know you could emotionally scar a 7 week old puppy for life in the 7 short weeks it had been alive till I met Nellie, I will never know what happened to the man I got her from, he must have gotten tired of my constantly calling him on his animal abuse becuase he moved after his dog had ANOTHER litter.


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## JLWillow (Jul 21, 2009)

Jare said:


> Nellie is my fearful girl, I got her from a man that was my neighbor (he had a junky house, you could barely see it, I wasn't even aware he had dogs when he actually had about EIGHT, I NEVER saw him walk or EVEN LET THEM OUT!), and one day I saw he had a puppy, Nellie was the only one left from his accidental litter but what do you expect when you have a houseful of unfixed dogs you dont separate,anyways, I watched him do terrible things to the one puppy he was keeping from his litter, and I called animal control on him, and that is when I started seeing his dogs more was once he knew someone was watching, and anyways I ended up getting Nellie from his becuase he said he was going to drown her, I don't know what he personally did to Nellie but I saw him hit his puppy with a sack of rocks, or chains...something heavy when it "disobeyed", I watched him carry it up the front of his porch by its choke chain, and I watched him kick her ect. (in ALL cases I saw him do these things, I called AC and they never really did anything becuase "there was no evidence") She was so shy and shakey when I got her, very very hand shy when you would go to pet her, scared of ANY loud noise, and when my mother visits, and she sneezes it sends Nellie into hysterics. Almost everything scares the poor girl, shes already six, so shes gotten a lot better but shes still just very wary of anything, and out of all things if shes sees you chewing gum or pop a bubble with it, it scares her to DEATH, she runs from the room and hides under something and shakes.
> Anyways, I didn't know you could emotionally scar a 7 week old puppy for life in the 7 short weeks it had been alive till I met Nellie, I will never know what happened to the man I got her from, he must have gotten tired of my constantly calling him on his animal abuse becuase he moved after his dog had ANOTHER litter.


I'm so sorry that happened to your litter girl. All you can do now is give her her second chance and make it the best one.

People piss me off so bad. I want to take a sack of heavy shit and smack that guy in the face with [email protected]


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Sorry I haven't responded sooner - I've been so short on time lately. Actually I think it's more a time management problem, but either way, I haven't been here much..
> 
> Either way, it sounds like a promising beginning and you're obviously on the right track to getting Jonas back where he used to be. I really admire you for being brave enough to try meds.. I'm still not at that point (though we are talking about two totally different manifestations of fear).
> 
> I don't know but from here I'd bet the DA/aggression type stuff is from insecurity around other dogs. I know certain dogs set Marge off immediately, but it's usually a pretty fearful reaction of hackles up and growly/woo-woo-woo barks.


My main reasoning for trying meds is admitting that Jonas isn't happy. I mean, sure, he's perfectly happy at home with me, but what kind of life is that? It's so sad to me that he can't just be a dog who enjoys being pet, no matter who is doing the petting.

I think his dog aggression may be redirection since he is learning that people aren't something to be aggressive towards. His body language approaching another dog is very much that of a welcoming dog, relaxed, happy tail, but the minute he gets close there isn't even enough time for a sniff and greet, he just goes nuts and lunges. 

Anyone hear of Pamela Dennison? She came highly recommended to me, so I'm scouring her website (positivedogs.com) and ordering two of her books, Bringing Light to Shadow, and How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong. She has (or had, rather) a HA/DA Border that she completely rehabilitated, earning his CGC.


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## MusRattus (Dec 4, 2009)

All of the dogs that i've had have been rescuses but so far Bailey and Lucy have been the worse. When we first got Lucy the rattle of a pill bottle sent her into a screaming fit and she'd pee the floor. It's been 4 years since the incident and she's pretty much over it.

It was about 4 years ago that we got Lucy. My Dad and Mom were taking Mitzy (R.I.P) to the vet when a puppy was being rushed in as an ER dog. She was an 8 week old Beagle in critical condition. A man rushed in after the dog yelling back out the door at a woman screaming "you don't give those to dogs". The woman came in the office in MUSC scrubs yelling back that she never wanted the dog in the first place. Mom being the nosey woman she is (thank god) went to the reception asking about the puppy. She was told that the woman from MUSC would soon be taken into custody for animal abuse seeing as she had apparently fed Lucy multiple asprin and other drugs and left the dog for dead outside of her apartment. After the vet appointment as they were getting ready to leave, mom went back to inquire about the condition of the puppy. The vet told my mom that for the time being they had her stablized, but they were still worried about her making through the night. About a week later my mom went back to the vet to pick up medications for Mitzy and noticed a beagle puppy sitting in a cage next to the reception desk with a diamond collar on and her head in a food bowl. The note on the cage read that she was a miracle puppy who managed to come back from the brink of death and that she was looking for a good home where she would be loved. Mom called the house in tears telling my dad that the puppy was alive and was coming home with her today. When she got her home she took to our house like she'd always been there, but we were to be on the look out for any kinds of unusual health problems that may occur since they weren't sure of how much damage the woman had caused. It wasn't until a year later that anything started to arise. Lucy started to suffer and still does suffer from reoccuring seizures. I'm not sure if it's epilepsy or not since we haven't found a trigger, but despite that she is now our alpha dog in place of Mitzy and is down right the sweetest and most docile dog that i have ever met. You would never think that she had ever had anything horrible happen to her in her life and everyday we are thankful that we have her.


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

JLWillow said:


> I'm so sorry that happened to your litter girl. All you can do now is give her her second chance and make it the best one.
> 
> *People piss me off so bad. I want to take a sack of heavy shit and smack that guy in the face with [email protected] *


Ugh I know, I don't understand how you could beat a BABY PUPPY with a heavy sack of something, Its just beyond me.
And after I got Nellie Away from him I offered to take that puppy he kept, he said he wanted her and wouldn't give her up (why you would want a 9th dog you aren't going to fix and is just going to supply you with more puppies to be sick of that you "have to drown" is what I wonder) Anyways, Nellie's sisters name was Mini, she was even a sweetheart after all that abuse, and I hope she escaped, or the AC finally took his dogs away and she found a nice home, she had her mothers looks (shar pei mix) so her face was all cute and wrinkly and I called her shovel face  I really wish he would have given her up to me.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Its been a while since I've been here..been busy with work (yay for mandatory overtime) and working with Tiberius. Its getting to the point where my Mom and her husband can take Tiberius out. He is becoming more relaxed in the house.

We had a minor issue with the Christmas Tree....he was afraid of it for the first day or so. But he is ok with it now (as long as the lights on it are off). So far, so good, no marking on it either. Not doing so bad for his first Christmas as an indoor dog. 

Recently he learned two things..the first is which ringtone on my phone is my alarm. The second is how to jump into bed. Yesterday he combined the two. The alarm went off and he jumped into bed to make sure I was up. He is getting to be such a cuddly dog.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Marge is getting to be cuddly, too, and VERY attention demanding. She always wants to be doing something with me.

It's the cold weather, I tell ya..


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Its gotta be MM. Tiberius has even taken to sleeping with me again...which is a feat in a twin side bed. Part of it too is Tiberius isn't seeing me as much cause of work.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally's been wanting our "bonding time" more often lately too (if "bonding" means "laying in awkward positions in my person's lap then look at him if my legs are falling off or he's putting something near his mouth so I can sniff what it is and be nosy")

He was CRAZY playful outside tonight when I was trying to get the decorations up outside. He kept wanting me to chase him and when I started a game, he would be getting all into it.

It must be the cold weather!


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

I guess we've all been pretty busy with holiday stuff lately, huh? I can't remember the last time I wrote an update about Brenna. Thanksgiving was a mixed bag for us where Brenna is concerned. Travelling with us seems to really strengthen Brenna's bond with me and hubby, in spite of all the stress of new places and people. She had some good interaction with my brother's two intact males, and some not so great...the bigger one kept trying to hump her, which really annoyed me, esp. since my brother just said, "Oh he's just being a boy!" Grrrr.... Anyway, let's just say I was proud of Brenna and how she handled everything, even though I was not so pleased with my brother's dogs' behavior. 

Brenna did have some really stressed points on our trip, though, too. We were helping my parents with some bathroom renovations, and the noises were pretty loud and scary for her. One night she was so startled by a loud noise that she instantly transported herself from the floor to my lap...completely surprised me, too! I had no idea she could move that fast or jump that high!  Overall, though, she handled it all very well. We tried to give her as much cuddle time and quiet as we possibly could, and we found that car-rides are a great relief for her. It was the only place she really seemed to be able to completely relax...like a little home away from home, i guess. 

Anyway, since coming home, she's been acting pretty normal. The Christmas tree and decorations haven't interested/bothered her at all. She was wary of the outdoor decorations some of the neighbors put up in their yards, but after a couple days of walking past them she stopped paying any attention to them. 

One happy thing is that Brenna has been starting to wag her tail at us for a few seconds on a nearly daily basis! We try to get down on the floor and pretend to play with her a couple times a day, and sometimes she really seems to enjoy it...getting all excited, well, as excited as she ever has so far.  I can tell she wants to play, but she still just isn't sure how to play with people. But every tail wag we get is so heart-warming that it doesn't matter if it takes years for her to figure it out. We just love knowing that she is learning to trust us and love us more each day!


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I signed up for a Shy Dogs training class that starts in January. It's for Cupid. We took a first-level obedience class last spring for small dogs. He did great with commands but did not love the class itself. Check out the poor guy's body language. We were doing "touch," which he did just fine, but his tail was often like that for much of the class.










Anyway, The Shy Dogs training is a positive-based class that will include some obedience, but it's more focused on building confidence and helping dogs learn how to encounter new things/people. Or so the class description says. LOL.

I hope it isn't cancelled. It's at a new training facility, and one of the three trainers is the one I liked so much at the Humane Society. They initially scheduled this class to start in December, but there weren't enough people signed up. Hopefully it will work out for January. I'll keep you posted.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Had a great day today! Well mostly great. My stepdad is doing a mentoring program as part of his college classes and he brought the kid over to the house today. The first few times Tiberius met the boy, he was very scared. Said child has Asperger's Syndrome and moves kinda quick. Today (I was at work when this happened..but my mom relayed it to me) Tiberius laid down on the floor and let the boy pet him. When I got home, C (the boy) was showing me how good Tiberius does with him. He put his hand out, and said "Tiberius" and Ti walked right over to him and nudged his hand.     I am so proud of my boy.

Tiberius even showed off his few tricks which are "sit" and "hop up". He wouldn't take treats from C, but we are working on it. The only down side, Mom bought cheap food and the stress level was a bit high in the house...Tiberius left me a nice accident to clean up..*sigh* At least his tummy is settled down now.

Oh yeah!! When C had to leave, Tiberius actually seemed kinda said. He'd look at me, then look at C. Tiberius even sat down on the floor with C and let C give him a hug! This is a huge deal! Tiberius only lets a few people hug him..me, Mom, and Corvyn


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Thought I'd share this picture with everyone. Tiberius recently learned how to jump up in bed, but won't do it unless invited. He learned the command "hop up" pretty quick. Its hard to believe this is the dog who wouldn't come to me just this past March..He's come so far...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Only good news with Jonas thus far. In the past few months we've eliminated his barrier aggression and he can happily be in the yard/car/by the front windows without going bonkers on anyone coming passed or even standing in the yard. We've also killed all reactivity to the doorbell in Jack AND Jonas. And with redirecting to squeakers instead of treats, Jonas can now easily go into the kitchen and lay on his bed with his squeakers when asked and allow company to walk inside! So far they can really only get inside of our walk way and stand before he gets reactive, but it's progress nonetheless!


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

*Dunixi*, I love that photo of Tiberius! He looks so sweet and content.

*TWAB*, that's a great pic of Jonas. I'm glad he's making progress.

On Tuesday I attended the orientation for Cupid’s Shy Dogs training class. It’s limited to four dogs. The first day was for humans only. I did get homework, though.



See how he reacts to the clicker (some dogs are afraid of it) and load the clicker. She gave us each two clickers: one loud and one softer one. I’ve done a little clicker work before, so I knew Cupid wouldn’t be afraid of it. We are using the softer clicker, and I have been clicking/treating a little each day. What’s funny is that my poodle is as much or more interested in it as Cupid is. He comes running when he hears the clicker.


Try a variety of treats and bring three that he really likes next week. This is a bit trickier. Cupid is on a special diet due to past bladder stones. (He had to have surgery to remove them.) So he has one kind of food and one kind of treat. He is food-motivated, does fine with his treat, and seems to enjoy it. But I suspect training would be easier if he could have something a bit more high value. This is a tough one, though, because I don’t want to see a return of the stones. I let him have a bully stick on occasion but feel guilty about it each time. So I’m probably going to stick with his usual treats.


Hand feed at least one meal a day. This is apparently to build a connection and to show Cue that my hands bring good things—food! Since he’s such a fetchaholic, I think he likes my hand and throwing arm already, but I figure it can’t hurt to do this. I’m doing this with the evening meal because the morning is a bit too hectic for this.
Based on what the other dog owners said, I think my dog might be the least fearful of the four. I wasn’t expecting that. Two of the other pups were kept outside with little or no interaction for months or years. One was kept in a chicken coop with six other dogs. Unbelievable. Only two of the four dogs (Cupid included) go on walks; the others are too fearful on walks. Another woman took in the dog of a man who has gone to a nursing home. He sounds very fearful. She already uses a clicker with her other dog, and this dog runs away at the sound.

The class is held in a big, open room with lots of space for four dogs. If the dogs become overwhelmed around each other and all the people, they will put up L-shaped gates. I am looking forward to next week’s class when we bring our dogs.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Hey everyone, not much action on the thread lately, huh?  I hope that means all our fearful doggies are doing better these days! 

Since it's been cold, I haven't been taking Brenna anywhere, except on short walks. There aren't really any people out in our neighborhood, so she hasn't had much to be scared of. We did take a trip to my in-laws, and she really seemed to like it there. They have 2 mini-doxies, one that would like to give Bren kisses constantly but doesn't want to play and one that is still scared of her! They haven't been socialized with any other dogs, especially large ones, since they have each other to play with...so they just don't know what to do with Brenna. But she really likes them and wants to play...it's so cute to see her wag her tail and play bow at them, even though they won't take the bait. Maybe someday they will learn, if we visit them often enough.

Brenna has also shown huge progress in her bonding with us. She has started wagging her tail, even if ever so slightly, on many mornings or when hubby comes home from work. She is also starting to figure out that we can play short games of chase with her in the yard, which is such fun. I love seeing her bounce around the yard looking all happy and excited, inviting us to chase her or to be chased. She really likes it if we get down on the floor with her and roll around...her way of showing excitement is this funny little snorting sound and lots of head shakes. She has even tried to "play bite" a couple of times, so very, very gently, though. Even though she is still pretty stressed by new places, new people that come to our house don't seem so bad anymore. So, I am really pleased with the progress we have made. 

I'd love to hear how everyone else is doing!


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

Cupid and I are three weeks into the six week Shy Dogs class. It is going well. In the latest class, we worked on going through unfamiliar thresholds, getting them to sit and down in unfamiliar places. We spend a fair amount of time at the beginning of each class just clicking and treating when they look at the other dogs and people in the room.

Last week we talked about massage, and Cupid is getting used to that. Sometimes he thinks I'm going to brush him (which he hates) and doesn't enjoy it. When he realizes the brush is not part of the activity, he calms down and enjoys it more.

My instructor said something interesting this week. She said that you can't reinforce a dog's fear by comforting it. I had always heard the opposite. I like the idea that it's OK to give comfort your fearful dog.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius is doing well. He got loose the other day, broke the tie out cable, but came back when I called his name  He jumps on the bed nightly for snuggles before he curls up on his dog bed (which he is using for the first time out of his crate) and goes to sleep. I am realizing he is very attached to Casanova now and I will need to get another dog when I move out.

We are still working on a few smaller fears (the ones we can deal with indoors). His fear of sunglasses and his fear of some men. Most men he is ok with now, but my stepdad still scares him. He will bark almost everytime he sees him. If Gordon (stepdad) comes downstairs, near my room with the curtains closed, Tiberius will growl. 

We're also working on a new little problem, Tiberius likes to growl at the cats if they come into my room at night..or if he is laying at the top of the stairs he will growl at them as they come up the stairs. He never tries to bite or anything, just growls until the walk by..


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## KarenJG (Jan 31, 2010)

This thread was referenced in another thread, and it looks good, so I thought I'd bump it up!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jonas is all sorts of set backs. I actually had a dream last night that I gave him away to a woman who was crying in her car. Don't remember why she was crying, but I remember not wanting to give him away and my boyfriend saying "It's for the best."

Never gonna happen, and probably a result of our bad streak, but sad dream!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

At the height of the winter storm - Wally was actually getting anxious (all the wind and the sound of the driven snow hitting things and probably getting in his eyes and on/in his nose). 

Not sure this was so much "fear" as much as a natural response to the storm, but it was the first time I saw this reaction to weather since the time I had to take him out in the middle of a tropical storm.

Unlike then, though, he was able to stay with me and stayed aware. Once we started walking around, he started relaxing and frolicking again, but that first reaction - he was reluctant to even go outside.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

My progress with Kaya is going pretty well.

I decided to take her and Hope to the dog park yesterday.

I went when there would be no dogs there, which is the only way I will bring her there, and leave if too many show up.

There was one dog there, and things went well. Several other people showed up, and Kaya wasn't glued to my leg, tail wasn't tucked. A few others showed up over the next hour.

She approached all the people there, timidly but she did it. It was nice to see her opening up more and not velcroed to me. She still wasn't comfortable enough to play at all.

All was well until a guy showed up with a chihuahua that snapped at her, and that set her state of mind differently. The after a few minutes she approached one of the owners of the chihuahua and it came over to run her off, she hid behind the guy, then kinda slunk around to me and hid behind me.

Most of the people there thought it was funny a 50lb GSD scared of a chihuahua. She did bark at it once when it came close to us.

Then a couple of other dogs showed up, several started barking and getting noisy, Hope runs over to check it out and Kaya went over her threshold and pressed into my leg with her ears back and tail tucked and it was time to leave. 

I think living here with Hope who is fearless, or maybe oblivious would be more descriptive, is no end of help as an example for her. She gets to watch Hope approach people and dogs regularly and Hope trusts everyone and every dog.

Kaya even finally timidly accepted a treat from the petsmart checkout girl, a first. After Hope almost swallowed her hand..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally just greeted another shy dog - and actually used calming signals to approach. That's a big difference from before where he'd either be scared, or just rush with no control or consideration for the other dog.

This time he moved in slowly and from an angle and held his head down like he was about to sniff. Then when he got to the dog, he just sniffed him and the other dog didn't really care.

Wally doesn't know when to stop, though. The other dog was having about enough and wanted to break off but Wally kept following him so I had to direct him off.

Ironic. It was like role reversal. Usually Wally was the other dog that wanted enough and I had to get between them. Now Wally was ignoring when another dog had enough. Saw so much of Wally from about 7 months ago in the other dog. He wasn't terrified, but he wasn't very interested/pleased about the situation either. 

He used to be that way, this time, he couldn't get enough and kept wanting to follow the other dog and was looking at me like he was all happy and did something great


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Kaya recently actually played with another dog. A first in 5 months I have had her!

Other than Hope who lives with her anyway, the first time I have ever seen her play with another dog. I didn't quite know how to react.

It was a big intact 100+lb lab down the street that Hope loves to romp and wrestle with, and Kaya is only half his size. We stop by every time he is outside and his owner always gives Hope and Kaya a milk bone.

Then a few days later she showed me more of her fear aggressive side, we went out to get in the truck, dogs off leash as they usually are fine with this, but she saw my neighbor (a house full of 20 somethings like a frat house) walking up his driveway and took off after him like she was going to eat him. I bet he had to change his pants. It was all bluff, she is way too fearful to attack, it's part of her barrier aggression I have been trying to calm.

I also got her into an outdoor obedience class, where we do a lot of heeling and weaving between a long line of dogs. Not a lot of change so far, she's pressed into my leg so hard I can hardly walk when were within ten feet of another dog.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jonas. Walked. Up. To. A. Stranger!! 

We went for a walk because it is beautiful and the whole neighborhood is out. Smalls stopped to meet some folks on their steps, Jonas WALKED UP on his own, and when the MAN put his hand out he sniffed it for a minute then sat down. No barking. No growling. No tensing up. Nothing! He's my little man. 

Sorry! Carry on.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

That's terrific! It's so exciting to finally see progress on something that seems so minor to most people but which is actually a big deal to folks with fearful dogs. Woot!

Poca was much better travelling this past weekend. She actually ate in a hotel room!! And slept! And was playful! Such a big difference vs. a year ago when she paced for hours, wouldn't eat, and was so distracted she barely responded to us. She was still whiny if one of us left her for a few minutes - she hates when we go separate ways. I think she gets stressed when she can't keep track of both of us.

But she was in lots of strange gas stations and parking lots and had no hesitation about jumping out of the car with lots of noise and commotion going on all around. And. She. Peed!! Right away, as soon as we got to an appropriate area, every time. She didn't hold it for hours and hours, thank goodness. All around, there's been much improvement since last year. 

Now if I could just get her to stop hating the vet office....


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I have to admit I had pretty largely given up on progress with Jonas and was going to accept him as is. We have realized that outside of the house he is pretty much a normal dog. Does he want to be pet? Not really. Will he go bonkers in the company of others? Nope. Apparently not even if they reach for him. So we're focusing every thing on desensitizing him to people in the house. He hit Magpie with a few face bites earlier (not serious. Just "GET AWAY." warnings) but she just won't give up on him. Brings him toys every day like "Please can we be friends today?"

Magpie is added to this thread because she is terrified of children, and we're not sure how to work that out. A kid was running on the opposite side of the road today and she was ears back scared and trying to tear away. She snapped at a child last summer, too. It's a tricky area to work in, so I'll take any suggestions. Right now we're just going about 50 yards from the bus stop and treating her when she sees a kid and doesn't react with fear.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Kids are tough because you just have zero control over the situation. We lucked out by having a family with 4 kids aged 1.5-6 on the street who all took really good direction and helped us get Poca used to them at least. Sheh's still not crazy about kids but can ignore them for the most part as long as they don't rush her or get grabby. 

We took her to the perimeter of a lot of playgrounds and had a lot of training sessions with them in sight so she's sort of used to their herky-jerky moves and sudden running around. I still don't let them pet her or approach, though, since I can't be sure she won't react. Or of what the little ones will do that might provoke her. 

It's definitely a challenge.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

We're kind of lucky and not lucky in the aspect that kids don't want to pet Magpie. She is sort of scary looking. She isn't small and she's got a grumpy looking face, so they won't rush her. I just couldn't think of a way working with her that wouldn't put a child at risk. She is VERY scared of them. I brought home a baby doll with real hair and the like and sat it by the kitchen table. She was snarling and staying as far away as possible so that I had to put the thing in a room with the door shut. When I picked the thing up to take it away she practically fell over herself and a bunch of stuff throwing herself across the room to get away. 

It's not a huge deal because she will never have to be around children, but she gets so scared and I don't want her to have that response.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm glad to see this thread picking back up again. 

TWAB, the only thing I can think of for Magpie is to stay WAY back in a totally inconspicuous location near kids, so that they won't see her and you don't have to run the risk of them running up to her (even if most don't). I'm thinking maybe a wooded area near a playground or something. Maybe that will help her to feel more secure - not that she can realize that she's out of sight, but I don't know.. maybe she will be able to sense the fact that there is a barrier between her and them.

You could also try a situational supplement to use when you want to work on it with her.. L-Theanine comes to mind (it's what Marge uses daily).


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I'm glad to see this thread picking back up again.
> 
> TWAB, the only thing I can think of for Magpie is to stay WAY back in a totally inconspicuous location near kids, so that they won't see her and you don't have to run the risk of them running up to her (even if most don't). I'm thinking maybe a wooded area near a playground or something. Maybe that will help her to feel more secure - not that she can realize that she's out of sight, but I don't know.. maybe she will be able to sense the fact that there is a barrier between her and them.
> 
> You could also try a situational supplement to use when you want to work on it with her.. L-Theanine comes to mind (it's what Marge uses daily).


Pretty much the current game plan. Positive association from a VERY far distance. We can see the bus stop from our yard, but it's very far away and across the street. Often when she is in the yard I will treat her for looking in the direction of the kids voices because even THAT would scare her inside. 

I haven't thought about supplements yet. She's by and large the happiest, friendliest dog I've ever met in my life. I just don't know what it is with kids for her. Either she never saw one, or they were really cruel to her.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Thats why maybe something that you give ONLY when you work on the kids issue could be an option. I totally agree with you - I still don't feel Marge needs meds, she's not fearful enough for them, and Magpie certainly doesn't need something all the time.

Is there any where you can walk that's at a ridiculously far distance (so that the kids aren't visible and barely/not audbile) at first and then you can get gradually closer? I'm thinking like walking parallel to a playground rather than walking up to it.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Thats why maybe something that you give ONLY when you work on the kids issue could be an option. I totally agree with you - I still don't feel Marge needs meds, she's not fearful enough for them, and Magpie certainly doesn't need something all the time.
> 
> Is there any where you can walk that's at a ridiculously far distance (so that the kids aren't visible and barely/not audbile) at first and then you can get gradually closer? I'm thinking like walking parallel to a playground rather than walking up to it.


Yep. We actually live right across the street from a day care. And a high school. With the traffic noise she can't really hear them, just see them from a far. That has worked thus far without a fearful reaction any more, but kids are all over the neighborhood and she goes from 0 to overwhelmed pretty quickly.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Things with Tiberius are sorta at a lull. He still has his moments, but is doing better. The weather is warming up here, and its time to start taking him for walks again.  Tomorrow its been a year since I brought him home. We will be going for a walk in the morning so he can show off his St. Paddy's Day beads and socialize.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Kaya is getting better with people and kids.

I've been doing a lot of socializing work with her, and she gets to watch Hope react to people and kids and approach them freely and without any fear at all and she does watch her closely. I get as many people to pet her as possible, and as many to give her a treats as possible.

She'll now take a treat from a stranger, and kid as well, but she still has ears down and tail tucked when she gets a pet and very very lightly takes the treat.

The group class I'm taking her to has a couple that brings a few kids, and they play a little distance from the dogs while we do exercises. The kids even get to weave through the dogs while they are in a sit stay in a row for distraction. The seems to be helping Kaya a lot.

Her issue with other dogs is another matter entirely. She's so always on guard it sets too many dogs off on her, or gets them to snarl at her, and it's going to be tough to change.

I was in a bit of shock when she barked, play bowed and initiated playing with the Lab last week, totally out of her character. Maybe because he's more likely to stuff his head in her crotch and wheel barrow her around the yard than ever lift a lip at her.


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## BellaRio (Sep 19, 2012)

I have a stray Fox Toy dog (about 2y old) that I took in 2 months ago. It is stray but must have been lost from a family, it is house broken, and behave very well. Only thing, it look like it is a little scared for a couple of things, like the light in the ceiling, lamp in the ceiling even when it is off, Small sounds from the upstairs neighbor, loud noises outside/inside, TV with flickering light and noises... She look all scared and go hiding under our bed..
I have read different things, do not comfort her.. get her used to the noises or buy a crate where she can be in/hide in..

Have anyone had success with behavior like this?

Bella


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

BellaRio said:


> I have a stray Fox Toy dog (about 2y old) that I took in 2 months ago. It is stray but must have been lost from a family, it is house broken, and behave very well. Only thing, it look like it is a little scared for a couple of things, like the light in the ceiling, lamp in the ceiling even when it is off, Small sounds from the upstairs neighbor, loud noises outside/inside, TV with flickering light and noises... She look all scared and go hiding under our bed..
> I have read different things, do not comfort her.. get her used to the noises or buy a crate where she can be in/hide in..
> 
> Have anyone had success with behavior like this?
> ...



Have you tried the Look-At-That game? Whenever the dog looks at whatever is scaring her, give her a treat/reward and praise her. 

What this attempts to do is slow change the fearful object/event into one that can predict something good happening to her, lessening her fear. 

Start at a distance where she can still see/hear the sounds/light but not so much to where you're seeing the fearful behavior if at all possible.


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