# Dog Park Training *rant*



## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I brought Ranger to the dog park yesterday to burn some steam off (and did he ever with a bernese lol) and there was a man there with his dog that seemed to be shepherdxterrier and was bounding around having fun. I'm not sure when he put his dog back on the lead, but the next spin around I saw him Cesar Milan-ing his dog with a slip collar. I think he was trying to get his dog to lay down, but all I heard/saw was "tsssst"*jerk*. On the next spin round he was still doing it so obviously the dog wasn't getting it. 

Later on he was holding his dog on its side stroking it, but was in the middle of where people's dogs were running and playing. I saw his dog get stepped on three times and each time the dog jumped up and was punished into laying down again. 

I was there for an hour and he was "training" him the whole time. I use the DP to train Ranger, but it's more of a call over to sit/down and then send him out again. Poor bugger.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

So glad I don't have to deal with people like this at my dog park.  He's setting that poor dog up for failure.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I felt bad for the dog. He was a wodnerful friendly little guy who had been playing with Ranger prior to whatever infraction caused the training....sigh


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

This is why I will never go to a dog park.
well, this and quite a few other things.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Poor dog, dogs are so forgiving....


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

It doesnt sound like his dog was bothering other dogs. You (not you, in general) need to teach your dog to obey commands, especially a solid recall when other dogs are around. I think its fine to work on training at a dog park, although a group obedience class would be better, but a dog park is a great place to practice your training. The owner can train their dog however they want. I dont understand why that would be a reason not to go to a dog park, because someone will be there training their dog, that dont make sense.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Because seeing people mistreat their dogs is stressful and can trigger bad memories.


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

Training is not mistreating, again.... an owner can train their dog however they want. A "tssssk" is not abuse, lol. Would your dog come when called at a dog park? Dont answer that question, just think about it, and get off that pedestal.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> It doesnt sound like his dog was bothering other dogs. You (not you, in general) need to teach your dog to obey commands, especially a solid recall when other dogs are around. I think its fine to work on training at a dog park, although a group obedience class would be better, but a dog park is a great place to practice your training. The owner can train their dog however they want. I dont understand why that would be a reason not to go to a dog park, because someone will be there training their dog, that dont make sense.


Because I would not be able to sit there and watch someone try to dominate their dog. It's idiocy. 
Jerking your dog with a slip collar, forcing it down on it's side in the middle of heavy traffic. OP said they witnessed dogs walk on the dog. 

I personally couldn't handle going somewhere that's pretty much a breeding ground for stupid and danger.


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

Then dont sit there and watch someone else and judge them based on how they are training, you should be watching your own dog, problem solved. Let me guess, you train your dog with treats, right? lol


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

That's fine BlueDiamond, but my dog comes when he is called at the dog park. Also, the slip collar was infact his leash with it threaded through the handle. I have no problems with people training their dogs at the DP. I do it myself in fact all the time, but I don't consider tightening and jerking the leash around the dog's neck and pinning him in the middle of a bunch of dogs rough-housing actual training. I have been known to "tsst" my dog to get his attention, but I certainly wouldn't pin him to the ground by that leash and punish him for trying to get out of being stood on. You're right Hollow, the dog was stepped on more than once and then flipped back onto the ground and pinned.

Also, people can train their dogs however the wish; technically, they're property. But as a free country, if the man had taken it any further I would have probably said something....which is MY right.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea... forcing a dog to lay down and have other dogs walk on it, then force it to lay down again when it reacts like anyone would to being walked on... I dunno, just rubs me the wrong way.

Blue, you talk as though there is something wrong with training with treats?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> Training is not mistreating, again.... an owner can train their dog however they want. A "tssssk" is not abuse, lol. Would your dog come when called at a dog park? Dont answer that question, just think about it, and get off that pedestal.


I don't know about yours, but my dog recalls at a dog park (and he is far from perfectly trained). I'll agree that a dog park can be a good place to train your dog, if it is done appropriately. A "tssk" and jerk on the slip lead, in my view, are not appropriate methods, and (the jerk, especially) are great ways to make a dog reactive, especially if they are employed often in a dog-populated area such as a dog park.

Mistreatment and abuse are not the same thing. Giving a dog a task well beyond the level it is working at is setting it up to fail. Its like asking a 3rd grader to do university-level calculus and then scolding her for not being able to answer the question. That is mistreatment - as in its not an appropriate way to treat anyone (dog or human!), but not abuse.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I train my dog through positive and negative ways, treats being one of them. I'll be honest and I say that I have even given my dog a smack before when required, but restricting air flow to my dog as punishment for not laying down and taking being stepped on? Not a chance. 

Also, there is PLENTY of room that he could have dominated his dog without it being stepped on. In fact, EVEN if he wanted to have the dog close to the other dogs running around (increase in distraction, decrease in distance) then he could have gone just outside that area.


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

What's your appropriate method, yelling "TREAT" and holding your hand out?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> What's your appropriate method, yelling "TREAT" and holding your hand out?


From your tone, I suspect that any treat-based method that is described won't be "appropriate" from your point of view...

op2:


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

BlueDiamond said:


> What's your appropriate method, yelling "TREAT" and holding your hand out?


If you don't actually understand how R+ training works, don't criticize it. I can assure you, this is not how it works.


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Blue, you talk as though there is something wrong with training with treats?


Like I said, you can train your dog however you want, but whats going to happen when you run out of treats, or the dog knows you dont have any? I went to a training demo years ago, where all the trainers were senior citizens with 10lb dogs, they all had their treat pouches on, and they were all a little over weight themselves. I left.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

BlueDiamond said:


> What's your appropriate method, yelling "TREAT" and holding your hand out?


Not at all. I just bring an entire bag with me and throw handfuls at my dog as he runs by.....*rolls eyes*


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

BlueDiamond said:


> What's your appropriate method, yelling "TREAT" and holding your hand out?


Another person who doesn't understand positive reinforcement and yet decides to ridicule it anyway! Lots of these lately. BlueDiamond, you don't look clever with comments like these... you come across as uninformed and rude.

Treats are faded once the dog has a command down. People who have used treats during training don't have to carry treats everywhere they go. Treats aren't even allowed in many competitions. 

Here is a nice little article about "treat-training" myths:



> 1. *Treats are bribes.* This myth is the old standard. The "Greensleeves" of treat disparagement, if you will. Let's be clear: a bribe and a reinforcer are not the same thing. A bribe is produced before the desired behavior, a reinforcer is produced after the behavior. Yes, some people do show their dogs a treat before asking them to do something. They're doing it wrong.
> 
> 2. *If you use food, your dogs will not obey you without it.* Here again is a myth based on bad training. The only reason your dog would refuse to perform without food is because she's used to seeing it beforehand. You're doing it wrong.
> 
> ...


Emphasis on that last sentence is mine.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

BlueDiamond said:


> It doesnt sound like his dog was bothering other dogs. You (not you, in general) need to teach your dog to obey commands, especially a solid recall when other dogs are around. I think its fine to work on training at a dog park, although a group obedience class would be better, but a dog park is a great place to practice your training. The owner can train their dog however they want. I dont understand why that would be a reason not to go to a dog park, because someone will be there training their dog, that dont make sense.


Because holding the dog down to the ground where he is getting trampled on by other dogs is not training. Choking the dog is not training. It is mentally abusive and borderline physically abusive. 

Because when other dogs are stressed and fearful and upset by so-called "training", my dog can tell and it upsets him to watch another dog being manhandled. I want my dog to enjoy being at a park and feel relaxed and playful, not stressed out by hearing another dog whimpering or seeing another dog flail around trying to escape a very instinctively threatening position (you want to volunteer to get pinned to the ground by a man outweighing you by 100 lbs while strangers trample you? Why would this be appropriate treatment for an animal then?)

I don't use dog parks for other reasons, but I hate seeing this same sort of crap happening in my regular city parks.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

BlueDiamond said:


> Like I said, you can train your dog however you want, but *whats going to happen when you run out of treats, or the dog knows you dont have any? *I went to a training demo years ago, where all the trainers were senior citizens with 10lb dogs, they all had their treat pouches on, and they were all a little over weight themselves. I left.


I do admit, before I learned more about R+ training, this is what I thought as well. However after learning more about the techniques, I learned that it isn't taught in such a way that that should ever be a problem. Gradually, when you give a treat is phased out (from my understanding) so that eventually the dog is simply performing the behaviour regardless of whether it is being treated or not. Some people who don't have food motivated dogs don't even use treats, but a favourite toy or praise instead.

The goal, as I understand it, is using treats while the behaviour is being learned, not all day every day in all situations whenever the dog does what you've asked it to.


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

Im uninformed and rude? Lol, this thread was started by ridiculing someone about how they train. Ive learned from a schutzhund trainer, and positive reinforcement doesnt necessarily mean give the dog treats. I train with praise.... and a quick snap of the leash is not choking the dog at all.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> Let me guess, you train your dog with treats, right? lol


Yes. They were rewarded for doing a behavior correctly and occasionally do still get a reward. I wouldn't work for someone knowing I would never be paid.

Let me guess, you believe you're the boss and your dog simply must obey you through any means necessary, right? LoL


Jerking a slip lead WILL choke a dog. Popping a collar is not the same thing as popping a slip lead. Forcing a dog to the ground multiple times and letting it get trampled is idiotic.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I have no problems with a quick "snap" of the leash to get a dog's attention when needed, I used to work with horses and I understand that sometimes you need immediate attention; however, what that person was doing was not the level of training you have received. I have been around dogs my entire life and have spent countless years training horses and my own dogs. When I trained my previous dog, I used a shock collar to teach her that chasing the horses was unacceptable. I believe that some training requires more strength/XXXX than others. 

I would never ridicule someone for the training methods if the method was consistent with the item being learned. This was a man with a medium sized terrier mix (and by terrier I don't mean ASBT, I mean whiskery-faced shaggy dog) that was being held down and being punished for trying to remove itself for a situation in which he was being hurt by the other dogs. Would you hold your dog down to be trampled by other dogs and then punish them for trying to remove themselves from it?


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

No, I wouldnt do that. I didnt say that persons training method is good. I think the OP understands my point. I love horses also. One more thing, a lot of people with overweight dogs laugh about it, and just talk about how it should be on a diet. Being overweight can lead to a lot of bigger problems, just like it does with humans.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

BlueDiamond said:


> Im uninformed and rude? Lol, this thread was started by ridiculing someone about how they train. Ive learned from a schutzhund trainer, and positive reinforcement doesnt necessarily mean give the dog treats. I train with praise.... and a quick snap of the leash is not choking the dog at all.


You are uninformed about how positive reinforcement works, yes. That much is obvious, because you didn't even know that treats are faded; you seemed to be under the impression that "treat trainers" have to carry treats everywhere they go for the life of the dog and reward for every command. And there's a difference between "ridiculing" an unidentified person who will never read this thread and making snide comments to other posters.

I actually use leash corrections sometimes, myself, and although I train new behaviors using treats, my dogs will both work for praise once they have a command down -- praise is especially reinforcing to my female. But the guy that the OP talked about was not training -- he was holding his down down in the middle of a busy dog park and letting other dogs step on it. I can't see what that would accomplish, can you?

(Also, what does a dog being overweight have to do with anything? "Treat-trained" dogs do not have to gain weight. They will if people are doing it wrong, but if people use part of the dogs' meals to train, or make sure to cut meals back a bit if they use more treats during the day, plus if they're careful to use tiny treats -- half the size of a fingernail will do -- the dogs will be fine. My two dogs are lean.)


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

Your an idiot if you think all the "treat trainers" train like you and "fade" out the treats.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> Your an idiot if you think all the "treat trainers" train like you and "fade" out the treats.


Well, you know... because people in general always do things properly. Look at how many people can't even drive a car properly, which is something that you have to be tested and get a licence to do... neither of which are required to try to train a dog.

I just don't get what you have against using a great tool (food drive) to train a dog. Why do you hate using treats as reinforcement so much? Why do you care if other dog owners choose to carry treats around all the time, as long as they're not waving them around in front of a pack of food-aggressive dogs?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

BlueDiamond said:


> Your an idiot if you think all the "treat trainers" train like you and "fade" out the treats.


I guess I'm not an idiot, then, because of course I don't believe that every positive trainer does everything properly, just as I don't believe that everyone who trains the way you do does it properly. The difference here is that I didn't ridicule an entire group like you did when you dismissed all "treat trainers."


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

Why ridicule an unidentified person that will never see this thread? Is it because you think your better than them? Why do you train with treats? Is it because it is easy? I have big dogs, and the bond we have is.... incredibly rewarding for all of us. My dogs will stand by me no matter what situation we are in. If someone drove by your house with a handful of treats and opened the car door, would your dog go?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I didn't start this thread nor "ridicule" anyone. I don't have any way of knowing whether I'm a better person than the guy the OP described, but I am more informed about training methods. I train using treats because it works; my papillon will pick up a new command in around five repetitions. After that, I don't even need treats. My dogs and I have a very close bond and they enjoy pleasing me. And no, my dogs would not willingly go with a stranger. Why all the questions? Are you that offended by me pointing out that you don't understand what you're ridiculing? I didn't mean it as an insult; it's just a fact.


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## BlueDiamond (Mar 18, 2013)

Same to you


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Most people who use jerk and kick methods don't fade those either.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> Why ridicule an unidentified person that will never see this thread? Is it because you think your better than them? Why do you train with treats? Is it because it is easy? I have big dogs, and the bond we have is.... incredibly rewarding for all of us. My dogs will stand by me no matter what situation we are in. If someone drove by your house with a handful of treats and opened the car door, would your dog go?


Nobody is ridiculing this person. Not that it matters because they will probably never see it.
But I find it odd that you seem so offended by people who don't feel the need to physically force their dogs to do things. 

I never used treats as a bribe, I used them as a reward. Nowadays, when I give a command, it's done and there may not always be a reward coming right after it. This is the point of positive reinforcement. You convince the dog that doing something willingly is a good thing. Forcing your dog to do something is intimidation and it shows a weak person, in my opinion.
Using treats is not easier. Using physical and psychological intimidation is. Doesn't mean scaring the shit out of your dog is right.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

If the guy sees this and comments, I'll say it directly to him as well. There is no reason your dog to need to be trained to lay on the ground while playing dog step on their face, groin, stomach and neck. There is no reason for the dog to be corrected by a jerk on their neck and force back down into that position again and again.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

BlueDiamond said:


> Why ridicule an unidentified person that will never see this thread? Is it because you think your better than them? Why do you train with treats? Is it because it is easy? I have big dogs, and the bond we have is.... incredibly rewarding for all of us. My dogs will stand by me no matter what situation we are in. If someone drove by your house with a handful of treats and opened the car door, would your dog go?


I have big dogs too. Some of the dogs I get have come from abuse and neglect situations. I earn their trust and create a bond by treating them with respect, kindness, consistency and yes, I reward them with treats for acting how I have asked them to (obeying a command, being quiet and calm, being confident, etc). I want trust, not fear. 

I am not a strictly positive trainer, I will use a leash pop on a flat collar on rare occasions, I do sometimes use a prong collar (appropriately fitted and mainly for controlling prey drive around deer) and when it comes to an immediate safety issue, I will use a harsh voice or yank a leash to stop a dog. I am very careful which dogs I use even the lowest level of a "harsh" voice and never ever expect a dog to know something I have not taught the dog. My most common negative is just "ah ah" or a time out (I swear the pitties think a time out is worse than being beaten, removing attention is just soooo mean!)

But by far my favorite method is treats because treats work. Treats will not make any dog fearful. Treats can never be overdone to create physical harm like force can (I'm talking immediate injury like neck injuries, not obesity which is totally a non-issue if you use meals for training). Treats do not remind the dogs of their previous abuse. Treats can be lures or rewards to train new behavior and reinforce. To do it right, you need to fade the reward but at least when someone effs up treat training by not fading the reward, the results are a lot safer for the dog and the community than when someone effs up with training by force. 

So yes, I do think I am better than someone standing in a park and abusing their dog. 

As an aside, if you weren't standing there, how do you know your dogs wouldn't run up to someone holding treats from a car door? I ask this because I've met a lot of dogs that were trained with dominance type methods and similar and they do tend to happily trot off with a stranger holding treats


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> Training is not mistreating, again.... an owner can train their dog however they want. A "tssssk" is not abuse, lol. Would your dog come when called at a dog park? Dont answer that question, just think about it, and get off that pedestal.



Pffft. Easily recall my dogs in a dog park (don't go to them anymore, though, because of stupid people), off prey, other people, other dogs, and have them stay around cars, bikes, kids scream, fireworks, horses going by, etc. I accomplished that with TREATS. Two are working small terriers, one is deaf, one is probably a hound or terrier mix, and the other is an 80lb teenage puppy of working breeds. All 5 are high drive, though what they're drivey for varies. I don't take treats out on hikes or in public with me, though, unless it's a training walk (new behavior, proofing) because it's just too much to juggle with the fact that there are four, sometimes five, dogs and generally only one or two people (occasionally there are 4, but that's only summer and spring).

So, you know, I'll stay on the pedestal, thanks. 

Not because I think a 'tssst' is abusive or think even positive punishment's the end of the world, but because this person's dog was in a situation where it wasn't obeying then they're moving too hard, too fast, and if they're letting their dog get trampled they're about as bright as a box of rocks. The difference between someone being dumb with positive training (not fading the reward) and someone being dumb with compulsion or punishment, is that not fading the treat is bad training with unreliable results, but doing the kind of thing the person being ranted about will create a dog in danger of being hurt, or hurting someone else.

*ETA:* Just say the treats and car door remark. This particularly cracked me up. Only Bug, the very most gregarious of my dogs will take treats for people not me - or, indeed, approach anyone not me. There was an Issue with this (though a minor one) with Kylie in training classes and Thud at my mother's. That's not a training thing, that's a TEMPERAMENT thing. Where are you getting this stuff?


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Ha Jubel loves car rides so much no treats or encouragement would be needed for him to jump in a strangers car. An open door is all the invitation he'd need. He also isn't out off leash so the opportunity isn't there for it to happen. Though he has tried to jump into my neighbors car when I've stopped to chat with them and they left the door open as they unloaded things. Knowing he might try it I had already stepped back and shortened his leash, he made a flying leap, hit the end of the leash and stopped about a foot short of the car. Then looked at me as if to say "you spoil all my fun".

He is also treat trained and no I do not have to carry around treats to have him listen to me. Treats are for teaching new things and random reinforcement of known commands.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

I've got to wonder about the motivations of someone who thinks you have to "punish" a dog - a critter who depends on us for everything - in order to have it be well-behaved. 

Personally, if I thought that was true, I would never want to own a dog in the first place.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

hamandeggs said:


> I've got to wonder about the motivations of someone who thinks you have to "punish" a dog - a critter who depends on us for everything - in order to have it be well-behaved.
> 
> Personally, if I thought that was true, I would never want to own a dog in the first place.


I wish I did, but I think I understand it in a lot of people. It often seems to be a fragile ego thing - and I"m not talking people who use carefully timed corrections, or whatever, like wvasko -. "I WILL NOT HAVE MY DOG CHALLENGING MY AUTHORITY, HOW DARE THEY?!!!!". Like a dog not doing what it's told is a personal affront to them, an insult, and the dog must do EXACTLY as it's told, with no reward, or otherwise it doesn't 'respect' them, and again: HOW DARE IT?! I know that isn't always the case, but the people who believe positive training is bribing the dog, absolutely can not result in a dog who is well behaved or obedient, and the owners are all dumb idiots who are soft and bad and- It's a particular type.

These people are rarely pleasant.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also, while I am at it: 

It is VERY hard, almost impossible to train recall with any kind of positive punishment. You can use an e-collar, if you're very, very good (as in a professional and working with one) to do it. Otherwise? Nope. Never going to be reliable and get the best recall you could. 

So, you know, the example of recalling at a dog park being used as the height of positive training is even funnier. Recall should ALWAYS be positive for the dog! It's the best way, IME, to get a recall that looks like the dog has been shot out of a canon. And a happy dog doing it:


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Totally agree! I'm totally a "cookie trainer" - with a clicker, even worse (eyeroll) - and yeah, I can call my dog out of play at a dog park with no trouble at all. I do it all the time. She gallops over with pep in her step. And I taught her that with cookies. 

Did you know that treats aren't allowed during the Canine Good Citizen test? And yet, somehow, my clicker-trained dog passed with flying colors. Imagine that.

It's nonsensical to me to think that you can train something like recall without positive reinforcement. 

Sure, I do think there are some things that maybe are more effectively trained with punishment IN SOME DOGS. The force-fetch comes to mind. But even there, not every hunting dog is best served by force fetch. If a particular dog will retrieve enthusiastically naturally, I think there are a lot of people who don't see the sense in sucking the joy out of it with force fetch. And for most dog owners - and I'm not only talking about pet owners - I think that positive reinforcement is the way to go. It preserves your relationship with your dog, it WORKS, it's fun, and it can't backfire. 

And again, if you really think a dog - a dependent animal with emotions who can't speak for itself - can't be a well-behaved pet without "punishment"...I don't think that says good things about what kind of person you are.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I wish I did, but I think I understand it in a lot of people. It often seems to be a fragile ego thing - and I"m not talking people who use carefully timed corrections, or whatever, like wvasko -. "I WILL NOT HAVE MY DOG CHALLENGING MY AUTHORITY, HOW DARE THEY?!!!!". Like a dog not doing what it's told is a personal affront to them, an insult, and the dog must do EXACTLY as it's told, with no reward, or otherwise it doesn't 'respect' them, and again: HOW DARE IT?!


These are the words that are in my bubble but I could not express.

I do not understand the need some people to have to demand complete compliance from their animals without any incentive or positive enforcement -whether it's with treats or not.
I use treats, my dogs aren't obese. They don't expect a treat everytime they do something. Hell, Diesel will do something for the sheer pleasure of seeing me pleased with him, yet I still choose to use a tangible reward from time to time. 

Whether it's horses, dogs or people, if you can't find a better way to motivate than intimidation, you should rethink your leadership position.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

BlueDiamond said:


> Same to you


Yea really... comments like this aren't the best way to make people take you seriously.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

BlueDiamond said:


> Your an idiot if you think all the "treat trainers" train like you and "fade" out the treats.


I would say the same to you if you think that all "negative trainers" use aversives appropriately and don't abuse their dogs.

I find it a little hard to believe you trained with a schutzhund trainer but are so completely uninformed about classical conditioning and Skinner. I don't believe all aversives are abusive and I'm not even sure I'd personally classify what that guy did as abuse (especially since I didn't see it). I do feel very confident in saying it wasn't helpful or effective though. 

Considering the damage that can be done when your methods are inappropriately applied I find it a little rich that you are nitpicking about positive trainers who are "doing it wrong". Owning a dog who needs a bribe to perform (incorrectly positively trained) is vastly preferable by any measure than owning a fearful, reactive, bite-risk (incorrectly negatively trained).


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

egads... why did nobody tell me i was a crappy trainer for using treats before now??

I'll stick to only _verbal_ praise from now on as my only reinforcement, because apparently thats the cool thing that lets you bond with your big dog.

Poor unbonded nugget. All those times I was using treats AND verbal praise for a recall, and now I'm fading the lure and he doesn't need treats? how idiotic of me. I could've just choked him with his leash for not coming, AND had a better bond with him.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Not even going to try... I think everyone has it covered wonderfully. 

But on topic, I would definitely feel uncomfortable watching something like that. How ANYONE can think forcing a dog onto the ground, snapping a leash against it's throat and THEN allowing it to be STEPPED on by other dogs... is NOT okay and I am actually shocked that someone on this forum would think it was perfectly fine. Disgusting. :/


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

BlueDiamond said:


> Like I said, you can train your dog however you want, but whats going to happen when you run out of treats, or the dog knows you dont have any? I went to a training demo years ago, where all the trainers were senior citizens with 10lb dogs, they all had their treat pouches on, and they were all a little over weight themselves. I left.


Question- what made you think this form of training wouldn't work for your dog(s) if you didn't stay through the training demo? Some people are overweight, but so what? What does that have to do with using treats for their dogs for training? They don't eat the dog treats themselves.

Is it because you think small dogs need different training than big dogs?


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Rescued said:


> egads...


egads xD
That cracked me up for some reason. the sheer sarcasm of it, I think.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> egads xD
> That cracked me up for some reason. the sheer sarcasm of it, I think.


WHERE IS TWAB with that picture of the "eheheh" bearded dragon.

ooooohhhhh TUHHHH WAHBBBBBBBB

EDIT: found it!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Man, if I don't love that lizard more than life itself.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

hamandeggs said:


> Sure, I do think there are some things that maybe are more effectively trained with punishment IN SOME DOGS. The force-fetch comes to mind. But even there, not every hunting dog is best served by force fetch. If a particular dog will retrieve enthusiastically naturally, I think there are a lot of people who don't see the sense in sucking the joy out of it with force fetch. And for most dog owners - and I'm not only talking about pet owners -* I think that positive reinforcement is the way to go. It preserves your relationship with your dog, it WORKS, it's fun, and it can't backfire. *


and doesnt turn your hunting dog into THIS poor petrified lab.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHHnMINt6CQ

UGH. nugget would be up on that table for the first time wagging his tail and licking the guy. that dog has obviously had some_ training_ prior to this video. being that scared is not that natural.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

What the @#$% was that, Rescued? That poor dog. I've never seen those videos before, but that dog looks like he doesn't even want to be there...all squinty eyed and stiff. I just want to take him and let him run around in a field and then cuddle on a couch.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

SDRRanger said:


> What the @#$% was that, Rescued? That poor dog. I've never seen those videos before, but that dog looks like he doesn't even want to be there...all squinty eyed and stiff. I just want to take him and let him run around in a field and then cuddle on a couch.


Ahhh, gundog training.

you're not from the south, are you 

And yeah, thats what nug was doing today until he got stung by a bee and I had to give him some benadryl, haha. He's passed out now but spent all day running in fields and retrieving for fun 

Point is- training your dog with force may be easier, may be necessary with some hard dogs (I'm not against a leash pop)

BUT

good lord, not with a soft dog like that.


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## Analytical Ada (Apr 23, 2013)

To me it is almost more sad than horrifying. The man at the dog park has probably watched Cesar Milan. Here's a man who has his own television show, seems confident about what he's doing, has many followers, and runs around with a pack of pit bulls. The dog park man needs to be educated more than ridiculed - he likely has no idea how you were able to train your dog to come back to you in the dog park. He probably doesn't see that what he is doing is cruel; not if he thinks it is what the dog needs and is what "experts" do. 

Perhaps saying something to him would have been the best thing. He might not have taken it well and probably wouldn't have accepted it, but at least you'd have a clean conscious knowing you did the right thing.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Rescued, nope I am from NS, Canada on the east coast. I know that a lot of people round here hunt, but I am sure not to the extent of down there and a lot of the hunting dogs I know up here are all beagles. 

If forced fetch the common way of training the dogs?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I watched something pretty much identical to the display the OP describes one time when I was at a "doggy social". I was going to say something but I was flabbergasted, plus I knew that this woman was convinced Caesar Milan was the end all be all, so I couldn't find a thing to say. To make matters worse, while she was in the midst of pinning her dog (for humping while playing!) when the other dogs started coming over to see what was going on she started roughly pushing them away. I'm glad she didn't touch Caeda, don't get me wrong, Caeda won't be hurt (or deterred!) by a hard shove, but if she is going to be that is MY decision, not some woman who has decided that she has to pin her dog to the ground for doing something fairly standard and "doggish". 
The same night I watched a woman do the same thing with her teensy toy poodle (I think it was, if I recall....it was tiny either way) for barking at a big dog and hiding behind her. UGH!!!
Since I've done tons of reading, and more work with dogs I've actually gone and watched some CM with a bit more of a critical and hopefully understanding eye. Some of what he does, I will say, though I disagree with much of it, some is pretty brilliant, unfortunately it seems that nobody takes the good stuff away from the shows and just concentrates on the pinning and the "dominance" BS. UGH.



BlueDiamond said:


> Im uninformed and rude? Lol, this thread was started by ridiculing someone about how they train. Ive learned from a schutzhund trainer, and positive reinforcement doesnt necessarily mean give the dog treats. I train with praise.... and a quick snap of the leash is not choking the dog at all.


As for this.....um yeah, you learned from a Schutzhund trainer. Good for you, which one? I do Schutzhund as well and I have noticed that there are just as many styles of Schutzhund training as there are "regular" trainers, and they certainly shouldn't be put on a pedestal as a whole (which I infer from the tone of your post). Some brilliant some bad, some concentrate on compulsion (or insist on it), others use treats, some use toys, I've seem clickers used at Schutzhund. Depends on the trainer. It also depends on the dog.....keep in mind, Schutzhund trainers are generally dealing with a particular kind of dog that responds better to particular training styles (generally, not always), so Schutzhund style training (if there is a particular blanket style) should not be considered superior to all forms of dog training for all dogs. Oh, and if you want to decide that I am a trainer that only uses treats, go ahead, you would be wrong.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think positive reinforcement is sort of similar to teaching a toddler to use the potty with an M&M as a reward. Just because during the learning process you use the reward, doesn't mean throughout their life they will expect an M&M whenever they use the bathroom.


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## techdogs (May 24, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I think positive reinforcement is sort of similar to teaching a toddler to use the potty with an M&M as a reward. Just because during the learning process you use the reward, doesn't mean throughout their life they will expect an M&M whenever they use the bathroom.


I wish I got an m&m every time I've used the bathroom lol

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I think positive reinforcement is sort of similar to teaching a toddler to use the potty with an M&M as a reward. Just because during the learning process you use the reward, doesn't mean throughout their life they will expect an M&M whenever they use the bathroom.


You know I struggled with potty training for a month-- child initially was excited by the novelty of it and lost interest-- she was like nah... I will just go in my diaper is easier.... then grandpa came to visit! She was done in a week! M&Ms !!!!!!!!! Wow did that ever work!
(and yes shes ten now and does not expect an M&M for the bathroom!)....

Ouch just read the middle 2 pages this thread got pretty hot..... and as to the car door thingie-- my dogs would be absolutely mortifed if a stranger tried to get them into their car (my giant schnauzer had 911 called on her for freaking out when someone tried to do that, and she spits out treats when excited, she is NOT treat motivated)... CptJack is right! Its a temprament thing...


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

bahahaha, I think you hit the nail on the head with that comment ireth0....


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Rescued said:


> and doesnt turn your hunting dog into THIS poor petrified lab.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHHnMINt6CQ
> 
> UGH. nugget would be up on that table for the first time wagging his tail and licking the guy. that dog has obviously had some_ training_ prior to this video. being that scared is not that natural.


OMG thats terrible. My dog would have bitten the guy the first ear squeeze..... and then probably gotten a beating.... That poor dog she looks so nervous and scared.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think I'm more afraid of all the unsolicited advice I'll get than the bad training I'll see. (Beyond the Thunderdome dogs scaring my poor pup into NEVER wanting to be around other dogs, of course!) People seem compelled to try to scare or bully me into hitting or alpha rolling my dog simply because of his size, or to make comments about my size in comparison to his full grown size.

I'm in no hurry to look up my local dog parks. I may check them out later on just to see if they're worth the time and effort to get to down the road.


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## Analytical Ada (Apr 23, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Since I've done tons of reading, and more work with dogs I've actually gone and watched some CM with a bit more of a critical and hopefully understanding eye. Some of what he does, I will say, though I disagree with much of it, some is pretty brilliant, unfortunately it seems that nobody takes the good stuff away from the shows and just concentrates on the pinning and the "dominance" BS. UGH.


Yes! Much of what he does works well, but not for the reasons he thinks. For example, making sure that you walk out the door before your dog. CM thinks that this is important because it shows you are "alpha", but in reality it is just good manners and is good foundation for making sure that your dog doesn't bolt out the door every time it is opened. He does have many things right, which is part of what makes him so convincing, particularly to those who are new to the dog world. I'm _still_ trying to convince my husband that the pinning/dominance thing is a bunch of baloney. ::sigh::


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I think positive reinforcement is sort of similar to teaching a toddler to use the potty with an M&M as a reward. Just because during the learning process you use the reward, doesn't mean throughout their life they will expect an M&M whenever they use the bathroom.


Thank you so much, ireth0! 

I hope you don't mind if I quote this in the future. It's short, to the point, uses imagery most can understand, and the humor might help avoid the discussion escalating into an argument.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

But. . .my brother and SIL used M&Ms as rewards to potty-train their kids, and plenty of people object to that too. . .you wouldn't believe the things they were told. It would probably devolve into a discussion of whether you should beat your baby for going in his diapers or not. . .


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Kevin T said:


> Thank you so much, ireth0!
> 
> I hope you don't mind if I quote this in the future. It's short, to the point, uses imagery most can understand, and the humor might help avoid the discussion escalating into an argument.


Haha, go for it! I'm glad it was helpful.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Willowy said:


> But. . .my brother and SIL used M&Ms as rewards to potty-train their kids, and plenty of people object to that too. . .you wouldn't believe the things they were told. It would probably devolve into a discussion of whether you should beat your baby for going in his diapers or not. . .


If there's anything I've learned it is that there isn't a single thing on this planet that "some people" do not object to. Even if it does not affect their lives in ANY way.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

BlueDiamond said:


> Like I said, you can train your dog however you want, but whats going to happen when you run out of treats, or the dog knows you dont have any? I went to a training demo years ago, where all the trainers were senior citizens with 10lb dogs, they all had their treat pouches on, and they were all a little over weight themselves. I left.


I really wish you weren't banned so you could see this, but maybe you're lurking. I will have to upload a video of my 10 month old Border Collie recalling hundreds of yards across a dog park without an object on me or in my reach. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to treat training.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I really wish you weren't banned so you could see this, but maybe you're lurking. I will have to upload a video of my 10 month old Border Collie recalling hundreds of yards across a dog park without an object on me or in my reach. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to treat training.


this ^

Manna doesn't need treats after the first 2 training sessions though we may still treat 1/50-100 times to reinforce the idea


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## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

> If there's anything I've learned it is that there isn't a single thing on this planet that "some people" do not object to


To which they do not object. You shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition. Sorry, given what you were talking about I couldn't resist.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

seaboxador said:


> To which they do not object. You shouldn't end a sentence with a preposition. Sorry, given what you were talking about I couldn't resist.


Touche!

(Too short)


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

CptJack said:


> You can use an e-collar, if you're very, very good (as in a professional and working with one) to do it. Otherwise? Nope. Never going to be reliable and get the best recall you could.


I prefer using positive "treat" methods as well but from what I've seen with the e-collar, it's fairly easy to train a recall with it.
Their "low level stimulation" training with their million, annoying nicks, works pretty well and is straight forward. Move in one direction away from the dog, guide it back to you with the leash, nick the whole time, when the dog finally to you, stop, praise. Do it until it gets consistent, add the command, do it a million more times. Done.
After a million nicks you would want to come every single time someone said "come" too.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Among some reasons why Roman don't do dog parks anymore.

It lacked the privacy of our park and seems everyone is there to "show off" their "training" suitable or unsuitable for every dogs.

Sorry if I won't use a choke or pinch collar.







Collar free Roman best.

Sorry if Roman will probably "yawn" and show how stressed he is to be in the presence of stranger humans "correcting" their dog via punishments. Yah it bothers him.








Sorry to let Roman repeatedly having to watch how training is repeatedly forced unto a dog like they won't ever "get it", like they are dumber than humans.

Are only some reasons I dislike dog parks... prefer my park where he can roam worry free.








Come back to mama!







Freebirding.

I wonder... sometimes after Roman having to experience that...
If it is why Roman tries to surprise me again & again... that he knows what I want of him?















Good with "stranger" dogs & human alike







Go ahead, bite me (foot), know you won't.

Eg. Like ring the bell for me when I forget, or do 3/4 tricks one after another without command issued to get to the treats...
Or that sit in the grassy bank to wait for the car/ cars to pass = he can be safe.
Or sit when encountering "unfriendly" party (humans and or dogs) to wait for his family cues or wait for the other party to pass...

I know my objective to training is so Roman understand me &vice versa...

Many dog parks to me.. only add to confusion... a curve ball unwanted.
Also... maybe even "bad" influences.

Not an environment I want.








P.S. It is because of reading via other's experiences like these shared stories that I learn not to let Roman be at dog parks too often... 

or let him off leash till he has the advantage of the "look" of a fighting weight (100lb+) to chance that encounter of a dog with bad mood. He also have successfully shown us he can read cues from other humans & dogs before trusting him to be free. Also not to forget, like he can trust us... we can trust in him too to make that good call when needs arises.

Research... is ever so important to learning. So are mistakes one learn from.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Roman loves his food and treats alright.

But he also has reached the point where treats are no longer needed... he is now very praise happy.
In fact, the last month and a half, his trail hike time we don't need to carry treats anymore as we found out he will just spit the treats to the ground untouched so he could just enjoy sniffing and having his own doggie fun.

Still... without treats, and no repeated boring commands... he stayed by his family on his own free will.
That is with over thousands of acres to run away.

P.S. Know the book "My Smart Puppy" by Brian Killcommon & Sarah Wilson???
Even before reading that book (just read it last week) Roman is already on phase III (collar & leash free training)... the "naked" dog.

No e-collar needed....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I prefer using positive "treat" methods as well but from what I've seen with the e-collar, it's fairly easy to train a recall with it.


Also easy to damage a dog (probably easier) what one person considers a nick another person may not. After all if a little nick is good a big nick (fry the dog) is better. Instead of doing something a million times, I'll up the juice and do it 10 times. Of course there's the possibilty I'm not gonna have much dog left.


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