# is this dog psychotic?



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

You guys have been so helpful on other issues, thought I'd run this by you too. I read with great interest the previous threads, "dog going crazy on leash" and especially "Jekyll and Hyde," which describes my dog's behavior to a T!

Daisy is about 3, a collie mix, 44 lbs. Adopted from the shelter about 5 weeks ago. She goes ballistic now and then, has since I got her, but it's increasing in frequency and intensity. 

She starts staring at me with her eyes bugged out (kinda scary) when it occurs indoors, and barks excitedly, showing her teeth a bit. Out on walks she prefaces it with some gentle hand bites and small jumps. Then she runs and jumps at me, butting and snapping at my shoulders. This is way too close to my face! She hooks my clothes, will close down on my arms/legs. This can happen indoors or out, on leash or off. 

She's been on 2 courses of antibiotics and prednisone so far, and is still probably having some pain, presumably from an infected anal sac. She has chewed off a pretty fair-sized patch of hair off one hind leg. I wonder if the prednisone is worsening the behavior, altho it was happening prior.

Like someone else posted, I "took her down" twice in self-defense before I read here about being a tree. But it was so bad last night, "tree" wasn't working, she almost got my ear! So I resorted to a squirt bottle out of desperation (stupid me). Then I let her go outside to cool off for 20 minutes or so.

How would you handle this? Do you think this is just inappropriately aggressive play? I have a couple of books recommended here on order, but any advice would CERTAINLY be appreciated!


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

It's hard to say for certain without actually seeing the dog in action. Remember though that a nip may hurt but an aggressive dog is perfectly capable of biting right through a hand or leg if they are so inclined. At the very least it sounds like she has a lot of pent up energy. I would up her exercise as much as you can to start.

If you believe she is in pain I would talk to your vet about other pain management options as well as having him look at her leg. 

A better food may help improve her anal glands in the long run.


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## amdplus3 (Jan 23, 2013)

My dog used to do the same thing when he was younger. He was trying to establish that he was the dominant alpha dog in the relationship. I was stern with him and soon he realized he was wrong. The tree thing did not work with him. He would just keep smashing into me. Ripped many shirt sleeves. To stop him I would grab him firmly but also gently where his mom would pick him up and he would roll right over to his belly. Another thing I did was keep a can with pennies in it. When he did it I would shake the can or throw it on the ground and say loudly and deeply BAAH (like a sheep). Sounds funny but it didn't take long for him to realize I was the leader of the pack and that behavior stopped.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

For her chewing on her leg, use a cone when you aren't there to supervise her. Sometimes the chewing irritates the spot which makes them want to chew which irritates the spot turning it into a never healing cycle.

I had a foster that was pretty jumpy and nippy. I put a harness on her and had her drag a leash all the time. Then, when she went nutty, I could hook the leash into a fence, heavy furniture or loop it onto a doorknob and close the door. Once she was secured, I could "be a tree" at a safe distance and let her calm a bit and then reward heavily for calmness. 

I also exercised the heck out of her - flirt pole, running, hiking on hills and weight pulling. A tired dog is a good dog. 

please do NOT use any "alpha" techniques like rolling the dog or scruffing. For one, it is just asking to be bitten and two, scruffing can hurt the dog. Those are outdated techniques that generally backfire.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> please do NOT use any "alpha" techniques like rolling the dog or scruffing. For one, it is just asking to be bitten and two, scruffing can hurt the dog. Those are outdated techniques that generally backfire.


Absolutely, positively agreed. 

My dog, as a puppy, did the exact same thing. Or what sounds like the exact same thing. She would get WAY overstimulated and go berserk. When the ol' tree technique couldn't work because my clothes were being ruined or my skin torn and she refused to play with anything appropriate, I simply left the room. She was using me as her toy (and improperly), so I took myself - the toy - away. After a few minutes, I would come back and offer a real toy, like a squeaker or a rope, and try to play with her appropriately. If she went berzerk, I left again. Rinse, repeat. And on the really crazy days, I would crate her, give her a little nap time, before interacting again. She picked up on it with consistency, and I never had to frighten or hurt her or resort to outdated, incorrect theories to make her "submit" to me.


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## amdplus3 (Jan 23, 2013)

Shell said:


> please do NOT use any "alpha" techniques like rolling the dog or scruffing. For one, it is just asking to be bitten and two, scruffing can hurt the dog. Those are outdated techniques that generally backfire.


These techniques were taught to me by a professional trainer. I was never showed anything that would hurt my dog and would never do anything to hurt him. I had tried everything and alpha techniques were the only things that worked. He submitted immediately.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

amdplus3 said:


> My dog used to do the same thing when he was younger. He was trying to establish that he was the dominant alpha dog in the relationship.


Nope. He was just exuberant and untrained. The "alpha" thing was disproved even in wolves, and dogs aren't wolves anyway (feral dogs don't even appear to live in packs). Here are a bunch of links that explain really well:

Alpha/dominance stuff:

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals
Wolf Expert L. David Mech's site (Mech has links to studies on his site.)

Domestic Dog Pack stuff:

Is the Domestic Dog a True Pack Animal?
Are Dogs Pack Animals? (by Jean Donaldson)

Also, just because someone is a trainer, that doesn't make them good OR educated. There are a fair number of awful trainers out there.


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## amdplus3 (Jan 23, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Nope. He was just exuberant and untrained. The "alpha" thing was disproved even in wolves, and dogs aren't wolves anyway (feral dogs don't even appear to live in packs). Here are a bunch of links that explain really well:
> 
> Alpha/dominance stuff:
> 
> ...


What works for some dogs doesn't work for others. I spent hours and hours trying to train him. Did the taking away the toy thing, turning my back to him etc. It didn't work. Hired several trainers. Went to puppy training. I did it all and reinforced it daily. Didn't work until I tried the alpha techniques and it worked quickly. In any home with more than one dog - that I have observed - one dog is always the obvious leader. At the dog park there are also dogs that are trying to dominate each other all the time. The trainer I hired was very good and very educated. He was a true dog lover. I did a lot of research before I hired him. What he taught me worked. I love my dog very much and would never do anything to hurt him. He is not in the least bit afraid of me either. Nor was he ever. He was def exuberant and very difficult to train. He also was not my first dog so it's not like I didn't have experience. Had I been able to use a different method I would've.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Sounds like an underexercised puppy to me! Muggsy used to do that when he was very young, under 2. (I got him at 11 months.) It seemed scary until I realized that he was big enough to kill me if he chose, the fact that I rarely came away with anything other than red marks meant he wasn't trying to hurt me. So I just stopped reacting, ending the game. He was a quick study, it didn't take him more than a few times to figure out that getting like like that meant game time was over.

Dogs suffer from the same problem small children do- they aren't born with self control. Overstimulated or tired children throw tantrums, dogs get like this. It's adults who must teach self control, and that means weathering some tantrums in the process. Eventually, both children and dogs will learn. But, expecting a tired child or an underexercised dog to learn self control is unkind. It's asking too much. So, you may need to work out any health issues and get on a good exercise routine before you see improvement.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks again for coming thru with good advice guys, Daisy says thanks too!

Gally, we exercise quite a bit I think. A walk of 1/2 mile to 1 1/2 miles in the morning. Then 3 to 4 miles in the afternoon. Probably average 4 miles daily, rain or shine. Plus indoor (it's cold outside!) play, throwing the toys, tug. For mental exercise we do several short sessions of basic sit, stay, down, etc. which may be beginning to bore her. We're STILL working on house training, tho it's much better with a regular routine. I don't think the prednisone helps any in that regard, makes her very thirsty and you know what follows! And the whole "no kitty" issue, also improving.

I think dogs are pretty precise with their mouths and teeth, don't you? THEY know the difference between a nip and a bite.

The leg is how the vet located the anal sac infection. Along with her tail chasing, both I guess are signs of pain in the rear end. Her glands aren't plugged, it was freely draining. I'm beginning to wonder if there is another painful problem superimposed on the first. The vet said that it may take quite a while to clear up the infection tho. She goes back to the vet at the end of the month, or sooner if needed.

amdplus3, "baah" had to laugh! You know, I tried Daisy in a class that uses those types of methods and it didn't seem to work very well for her. I'm hoping to find other ways...but am not going to let her hurt me either.

Shell, I'll ask the vet about a cone, it's been 3-4 weeks and the leg is a little worse. It's a 1" x 2" patch that's hairless, dry and scaly, looks like dermatitis. Hate to do it to her tho because it would mean wearing it all night and parts of some days. I'll try hooking her to a door knob or something when she goes off. What do you think about when she does it on a walk? Just shorten my hold on the leash? I may have to get a metal leash tho because her fabric one is about halfway chewed thru in places...I'd like to try exercising her more but have been hesitant to because of the pain issues, in case there is something other than sac infection going on. I wonder too if pain could be part of her going nuts problem, chicken or the egg? I'll bring all this up with the vet of course.

Kirsten&Gypsy, I think that by letting Daisy out into the yard to chill for a few minutes might be the safest way way for us, too. A few times she's gone nuts on me in the yard, unleashed also. Then I'm a tree. It's a fenced yard and her bed is on an enclosed front porch. I don't think she's lived indoors much, just judging by her being not housetrained. Altho she makes few attempts to get up on the furniture, so who knows? 

Appreciate the help and support everyone, you're helping a dog today by your responses!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> Shell, I'll ask the vet about a cone, it's been 3-4 weeks and the leg is a little worse. It's a 1" x 2" patch that's hairless, dry and scaly, looks like dermatitis. Hate to do it to her tho because it would mean wearing it all night and parts of some days. I'll try hooking her to a door knob or something when she goes off. What do you think about when she does it on a walk? Just shorten my hold on the leash? I may have to get a metal leash tho because her fabric one is about halfway chewed thru in places...I'd like to try exercising her more but have been hesitant to because of the pain issues, in case there is something other than sac infection going on. I wonder too if pain could be part of her going nuts problem, chicken or the egg? I'll bring all this up with the vet of course.


Try the KONG donut "cone" as it is far more comfortable for the dog than a traditional plastic cone of shame (and easier on your walls and shins too!). It looks like one of those airplane neck supports for sleeping and its inflatable so it has give to it when the dog lays down. Depending on where the leg irritation is though, she may be flexible enough to still reach it (like, they can reach a foot but not an upper leg) 

On walks, it depends. It might help to stand on the leash so you can't jump and have treats on you for rewarding calm. Always have her attached to a harness if you are going to tie the leash to anything solid or stand on it so that you are protecting her neck if she lunges or jumps against the restraint. A chain leash may help keep her from biting at it and using it like a tug toy, I've gone that route before and it helped with the "tug the leash" problem and the dog kind of forgot about playing with the leash so I was able to go back to a nylon lead.

Try as much mental exercise as you can- make all her meals as training sessions where you feed piece by piece so you get a 15-20 minute training session out of a cup or so of dry dog food.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Didn't get to read the last few posts before I replied!

amdplus3, I know how you must have been at your wit's end; if it comes down to it, I would use a penny can or something like that if it keeps me from being hurt. It's funny, because when she meets new people she is quite polite and friendly. In our daily routine I take charge in the sense she moves out my way around the house, I make her sit-stay before feeding her, stuff like that. In fact she's quite gentle most of the time. But she has these fits and I could see where it could get dangerous, especially as it's escalating a bit as I mentioned.

Amaryllis, what do you think of our amount of exercising? Daisy is actually 3 years old or so...in some ways I wish I had gotten her younger. Sounds like she's not such a quick study (as Muggsy), or more likely I'm not getting the message across correctly! She doesn't do this behavior when we're playing, it might happen on a walk, when we're sitting around, when I'm doing chores, I haven't been able to see any trigger for it, but there must be one?


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

5 weeks???? Sounds to me like the honeymoon phase is wearing off, she is now comfortable enough in the home to begin testing the waters (seeing what is acceptable behavior etc.). You were given some great advice in the above posts.. Just be patient and consistent with your training methods.. She'll come around eventually...


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## amdplus3 (Jan 23, 2013)

I was at my wits end. I only resorted to these methods because he knocked my daughter down the steps. She was only 2 at the time. Luckily she was not hurt but it came down to either he listens or he goes and I had no intentions on getting rid of him. He was exactly like your dog. Very gentle most of the time but then it's like he would just snap. The methods I used were not cruel in anyway. It's not like I hit him with the can. It was the noise that stopped him. Even the funny BAAH. I felt like a fool but it worked. It allowed me to keep my dog and keep my family safe from his psycho moments. You have to do whatever works for you and your family.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

amdplus3 said:


> These techniques were taught to me by a professional trainer. I was never showed anything that would hurt my dog and would never do anything to hurt him. I had tried everything and alpha techniques were the only things that worked. He submitted immediately.


What those techniques do, at the very least, is scare the dog into not acting. It's doesn't fix the problem, -primarily because the problem (problem being trying to dominate) isn't real.


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## Crash440 (Jan 21, 2013)

> She doesn't do this behavior when we're playing, it might happen on a walk, when we're sitting around, when I'm doing chores, I haven't been able to see any trigger for it, but there must be one?


It sounds to me that when she doesn't have your full, undivided attention might possibly be the trigger.



> 5 weeks???? Sounds to me like the honeymoon phase is wearing off, she is now comfortable enough in the home to begin testing the waters (seeing what is acceptable behavior etc.)


I also completely agree with this!

For her leg you could try anti-lick strips instead of the cone as well. As for the leash chewing, maybe try bitter apple spray (if you have not already). There is a lot of great advice on her so far!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> What those techniques do, at the very least, is scare the dog into not acting. It's doesn't fix the problem, -primarily because the problem (problem being trying to dominate) isn't real.


Agreed. Dogs don't try to be the "alpha" over humans. Dogs don't think like that at all. Dogs are not wolves... and, as explained in the links I posted in my earlier comment, even wolves don't fight each other for alpha status (wolf packs are family groups and the parents are naturally what most people would consider the "alphas" -- no competition necessary). 

Sometimes dogs push the boundaries, yes. Dogs are opportunistic -- they do what works. If jumping and nipping a human gets them attention, even what we'd consider negative attention (pushing the dog away, yelling), then they'll keep doing it. And yes, pinning a dog or shaking a noisy can of pennies CAN work. But that works by suppressing the behavior -- the dog learns to stop doing something because it wants to avoid negative consequences that might be painful or scary. I prefer to teach a dog that biting is unacceptable simply by stopping the fun -- by removing the fun thing (me) from the room. It's still a negative consequence, but it's much more of a teaching moment for the dog. I come back quickly and we play with appropriate toys. Instead of learning what he shouldn't do, the dog learns what he should do.

It's kind of like if you had a young child who was using his crayons to draw all over your walls. Would you yell at him or spank him... or would you get him some paper and teach him to draw on that instead? If he continued to draw on the walls, would you yell at him or spank him... or would you take his crayons away for a bit and only give them back if he used them to draw only on paper?


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Sounds like a smart high energy girl! My Savannah was similar in energy. I use to have to take her for a 45 min. walk and frisbee her for 30 min. and she still had energy for agility class. Have you tried clicker training to shape behavior? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wesm2OpE_2c&list=PL4BBEA07626D902CF


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Can you upload a video next time she does it? I am interested to see what it looks like first hand. 

Has she been tested for a neurological disorder? Or thyroid? Perhaps there is something going on there. Abnormal thyroid can cause a wealth of strange behavioral problems.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Shell, 'cone of shame,' love it! The area she's working on is JUST above her knee (?elbow?). Maybe between this forum, the vet and a pet supply store we can figure out something else, like the Kong one, or someone mentioned anti-lick strips. I had never heard of them. Can I just rub some olive oil into it and sprinkle some chili pepper or something over it? Guess she's working on that area because she can't reach where it really hurts.
I'll try standing on her leash next time while being a tree, good idea! Always have treats on me for walks now - she is doing so, so much better with her reactivity toward other dogs, already using half the amount of treats as when we started that method last week. She's that much less reactive! Sometimes I've had a little trouble telling when she's done with her fits. I'll have to be careful to make sure she's really done before I treat for calmness, right? I THINK it's when she stops staring at me, and her face looks calmer.

RedGerman, I'll bet you're right, I read somewhere that it might take a year before you see who your adult rescue dog really is.

Crash440, I think you might be on to something there...maybe she's used to more stimulation/people around. I live alone and who knows if she came from a large family with constant attention. She's with me most of the time, but still...And I agree, tons of good advice. Thanks for the strip tip!

Crantastic, do you think letting her outside for a few minutes when she has a fit like this will help? Guess my question now is, when she does it inside and off leash I can remove her from the room. When we're outside on leash I can stand on her leash and be a tree. Would that show enough consistency to extinguish this behavior? Even tho the behavior she needs to lose is the same, different scenarios seem to call for different corrections...should still be learnable, right?

agility collie mom, thanks for the support. My dog looks just like yours, except she's white! No, I haven't tried clickers yet but am sort of familiar with it and understand shaping behavior. My computer is really slow, so have trouble watching video on it. Trying to load from your link and it's been 15 minutes so far, still not loaded; but it looks encouraging. Kikopup's videos are highly recommended here. I will be awful happy when my books get here!
Daisy is pretty energetic, keeps me active. Kind of why I got a dog, for a walking companion and an early warning system for when someone drives up. Plus just as a fishing buddy - hope she can learn to stay close off leash up in the mountains someday.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

dogdragoness, that's so thoughtful, unfortunately I don't have the technology. On our follow up at the vet I'll be bringing this behavior up...hopefully he can do some testing. Somewhat limited financial resources available for CT/MRI scans, but some blood work should be doable, at least. It has crossed my mind that she may have spent some time tied up, just a hunch, but thyroid problem sure possible.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

goodgirl said:


> Crantastic, do you think letting her outside for a few minutes when she has a fit like this will help? Guess my question now is, when she does it inside and off leash I can remove her from the room. When we're outside on leash I can stand on her leash and be a tree. Would that show enough consistency to extinguish this behavior? Even tho the behavior she needs to lose is the same, different scenarios seem to call for different corrections...should still be learnable, right?


Hm, does she like going outside? If she likes it, you don't want to accidentally reward her for going crazy. The idea is to make her life become suddenly very boring when she acts up -- you leave and she's alone in a room with nothing fun happening. 

Being a tree is about all you can do when you're out walking! I think she'll get it, yeah. Going crazy inside means you leave the room. Going crazy outside means that the walk stops and you ignore her until she's quiet again (try to keep your back to her if you can). In both circumstances, the fun stops, so she should get it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

A lot of herding breed dogs I've been around, especially one particular collie I know, will go crazy and start biting when they're overstimulated. That was my first thought when I read your description. They'd run agility, he'd get excited, no self control, and start jumping up and biting their handler like this. I also have known quite a few border collies that when overstimulated will resort to biting/jumping at their handler. One of our shelties would do the same thing as a youngster and would jump up and try to bite (nip) at faces.

I would 1. Make sure lots and lots of exercise is being given to the dog. 

2. Start looking for signals the dog is about to be overstimulated. Ime there's usually signs leading up to them losing their brains. If you can cut them off before it starts, reward for good behavior or force a cool-down if needed (like crating or some way to put the dog away for a while until they settled back down). You're not going to get anywhere working with her when she's over her threshold, the idea is to work and reinforce while she's under it.

3. Find some more mental work other than just sit and down practice. More advanced commands, puzzles, nosework, things to engage her brain. 

4. Pick up the book Control Unleashed. Great reading.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have never had a dog with neurlogical problems, but is there any "test" they do that doesnt involve a brain scan or whatever? Though I am starting to think this is just a very sensitive herding type dog that gets over stimulated easily ... like a race horse LOL (you should see THEM when thwey get overstimulated imagine a thousand pound animal doing what your dog is doing LOL) so although I have never had a DOG do this, I deal with horses who do it a lot & I can kind of relate... the difference is "being aa tree" will get you killed :/.


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## cmoorewv (May 27, 2012)

I have a dog that acts like a certifiable nut case, too. (Not trying to hijack! LOL) All it takes is speaking to her in the wrong tone of voice sometimes. No high pitched baby voices around her. I chalk it up to overstimulation most of the time. She will tear back and forth through the house at break-neck speed barking, jumping, nipping, etc. She's only roughly 15" tall at the shoulder but she can jump as high as my chest/face area. It's like she's not even in this world for a few minutes. I refer to it as losing her mind. The only thing I have found that really works in that situation is to either ignore her or talk to her in a calm, even, low tone of voice while gently touching her. It seems to bring her back to reality. Yelling only makes her worse and I have tried to get the kids (not really "kids"-the youngest is 17) to understand that. She's a terrier mix, but may have some herding breed in her as well. I have noticed that this behavior really only happens inside-not outside-in Sheba's case. I haven't tried shaking a can of pennies, but a loud whistle does seem to snap her out of it sometimes if I stop her before she completely "loses it". She has settled down quite a bit in the year I've had her, but she has a little ways to go yet.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

I think it'd be best if you do more than just walking/jogging. It's not bad but mental stimulation is just as big as physical stimulation.
I used to think for a long time I had to walk/jog with my dog all the time when really it's not a big deal.
Try teaching games for the home! I have my dog track treats in the backyard. I make him wait in the garage and then go put a treat out somewhere, come back and tell hm to find it. He loves it and it actually tires him out pretty fast despite him not running or walking much.
Not to mention the classic "fetch"
Flirt poles and some other ideas already suggested in the thread are great ideas. Combine it all together! A tired dog is a good dog.


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## Bonney90 (Jan 24, 2013)

nice job!


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

crantastic, yes she likes to go outside and look for cats, then she likes to come back in. So guess that's not a viable option, darn it- it would be easy for me! She went off once on a 4 mile walk yesterday. I could see it coming, she bit lightly at me right hand, left hand is for treats. As soon as she started jumping around I stood on her leash as Shell suggested, and was a tree. When she calmed we walked on a few paces to make sure she was done and I treated the heck out of her. It was a briefer episode, so maybe I'm getting thru to her?

I also started treating her for being calm in the house.

Laurelin, great suggestions! Altho I don't think overstimulation is the problem...she doesn't seem to get more and more excited and do it. It can happen when we're just sitting around, out in the yard (?territorial?), beginning, middle or end of walking...I can't see the trigger so far. When it happens indoors I first notice her sitting and staring intently at me, tongue out, kind of smiling at times.

I think you're (and others) right about the mental stimulation.

dogdragoness, beyond checking pupils/retinas and reflexes I don't know what physical exam stuff they can do, the vet seems really sharp tho, maybe he knows of something.

cmoorewv, glad you can relate and very happy you've had some success! I agree about the tone of voice thing, with my dog yelling "no" definitely escalates things. In fact that's leading me more to think it's somehow related to frustration in some way, or dominance. So far "being a tree" is most helpful for us. 

So far with Daisy it seems as tho she's not that into cuddling and petting, tho she likes a belly rub!

EdDTS, I think the walking is more for me sometimes! It's also part of our potty training thing. I agree with the mental games, great suggestions. What is a flirt pole anyway?

While writing this I stopped and did a short potty walk (1/2 mile). At one point she did bite at my right hand (gently), jumped once, and walked on. Encouraging behavior!
Poor Daisy, what a rough time she has had! She's getting better all the time tho. Thank you all so much!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> What is a flirt pole anyway?


It is like a cat fishing pole toy but for a dog. You can make one with a horse lunge whip and tie a rag or soft toy (destuffed ones work well) on the end, or use a narrow PVC pipe and a length of rope also with a toy on the end or use some leather strips at the end- whatever is really tempting for your dog to chase and jump at.

Then you wave the pole (swinging the toy here and there) around to get the dog jumping and running in circles


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## nemefeme (Jan 10, 2013)

Rambo was like this. There would be times he'd just stare at me for a minute or two; then LOOSE it and go running around the house, hitting his head into things and his eyes were WIDE. It scared me. He would snap on random children and some adults, lunge straight for the face and he'd snap at me sometimes when I went to take his leash off. I always thought there was something wrong.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Also you can hang the toy (I usually use a horse jolly ball, you can find those at many feed stores & most TSC's, just ask them for a horse jolly ball, they should know what you mean). from an overhanging limb of a tree in your yard (just make sure its sturdy enough. 

Below are pics from photobucket of my dogs playing with one: (hope they load)








-Izze








-Josefina


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Thanks Shell, the flirt pole does sound fun and I've got all kinds of stuff around here to make one. If I can ask one more question? Health-wise, what kind of rope is best to use? I've got nylon, regular hemp-type, light cotton, even some super heavy-duty parachute rope (requires power tools to cut). Whatever I use, some is sure to find it's way into her stomach...

doggragoness, that is so cool, and I've got a great place to hang it from, big spruce tree in the front yard. I'm thinking it would help entertain her when I have to leave her home alone, too...picturing a hanging hollow peanut butter-filled toy! She would love it.

nemefeme, I'm in some serious suspense here! What happpened with Rambo? Did you ever get it figured out? What caused it, and how did you make it stop?!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I just go with a sturdy soft lightweight rope, cotton works fine. You want it to be able to flip back and forth easily, the heavy ropes won't swing and flitter well. She shouldn't be grabbing the rope but just the toy at the end, but in case she does bite on the rope, you don't want it to be harsh on her mouth.

The jolly ball idea is great and if you have a good sturdy tree, you can use tire innertubes to attach it to the limb which does 2 things- it protects the tree against the friction of the rope and it creates some "give" or spring to the rope when the dog tugs on the jolly ball. You can try putting the jolly ball just high enough the dog has to jump a little to grab it.


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Awesome Shell, you're full of great ideas! Found an article about rope and toys in general related to animal health, posted it on the health forum. Very enlightening to me!

http://www.k911.biz/Petsafety/RawhideandChewyTreats.htm


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

All great information form everyone. Time and patience will bring results. When I first started Savannah in agility she would jump and bite me (bit me in the rear once while working a wrap). When she would go over the top the game would end. Now at five I can put her in a stay in a room full of activity and she doesn't move until released. So hang in there.....


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I just used a standard cotton rope, the only thing you want to avoid is nylon because if she does happen to get ahold of it I have had some bad experiences with mouth rope burn with nylon.

Don't worry about if she does happen to get a hold of the rope, mine did regularly (Josefina grabbed it alot because he jaws weren't strong enough to compress the jolly ball like Izze could lol). When you hang it you want it so that the toy "looks her in the eye" or a little above so she has to work to get a hold of it. Izze's fave thing was to get a running start & grab it & swing on it lol, it always amazed me how she could hang on. 

It's also amazing how tired they get  post pics when you get it up


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