# Irresponsible parents need to watch their kids around dogs (long rant)



## Arya of House Stark (Jan 14, 2014)

So, I'm absolutely seething because the dog run closest to my house is closed until Fall 2014 for "renovations." There's another one further down in my Brooklyn neighborhood, but from what I'm hearing, they're closing it next weekend to start renovating it as well, which is very irresponsible of the Parks Department and inconvenient for local dog owners. Kind of hope they make a stink, but I doubt it'd do anything. :/

Anyway, due to the piss-poor planning skills of the Parks Department, I've been taking Zoe on the weekends to a local park that allows dogs off-leash. Zoe's recall isn't that great yet so we just walk around and my boyfriend and I decided to start some long-line work per the recommendation of a few friends and the dog trainer I used. I've seen quite a few people training their dogs there and figured it was a good way to help proof her commands.

Saturday I had a belly dance gig in the city and didn't want to leave Zoe with her energy all pent up, so in the afternoon the BF and I headed to the park to do some obedience training with her so she'd be tired by the time we left.

It was pretty crowded with a mixture of people and dog owners, but we found a quiet spot and started working with Zoe. Most people saw what we were doing and left us alone, which was nice. A few kids ran by, but nothing too bad.

All of a sudden, some wild 2 year old comes running up out of nowhere behind Zoe, so I quickly pulled her behind me and told the kid as the mother came up going "Oh my god I am so sorry" about a million times that Zoe's still a puppy and I'm working on her commands. I politely asked them to not do that again since it's a good way for a kid to get bitten, and the mother walked off and set the kid running around again with no supervision.

Disgusted, the BF and I move closer to the trees and resume training. Not even 10 minutes later, the same kid charged again at Zoe from behind and I saw red. I yelled at the kid to please leave us alone and as the mother came up again, I whirled around and told her that I kindly asked her to make sure that her child didn't charge at my dog again because that sort of behavior could lead to her kid getting bitten by a dog.

Her response was absolutely pathetic. She insisted that "he didn't mean it" and "he's only a baby!" to which I merely raised an eyebrow. She then said that Zoe was "a stupid animal" and I lost it. I stared her down for a few moments before turning around and growling something in Italian before moving even closer to the trees. She seemed to be intimidated and finally took her wild child to the playground and hopefully supervised the kid.

Thankfully, the rest of the training went well, but I can't believe how irresponsible some parents are. My parents would've killed me if I charged a strange dog at that age and you can bet that they kept an eagle eye on me when I was that young. It's rather sad when Zoe has better manners then that kid, good grief. O_O;

I really dislike going to this park, but until the dog run shenanigans are over with, I don't have much of a choice. I don't have a fenced in backyard, dogs aren't allowed in the ballfields and since I don't drive, I can't get to the other Brooklyn dog runs.

I've been thinking of making a mini-obstacle course in my backyard and have her walk through it on the long line when it's nice out. Maybe have her lightly hop over a broomstick, weave between water bottles, that sort of thing. Zoe would have a field day with it and it'd be a good way to wear her out while they renovate the dog runs.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Honestly a 2 year old is a baby still. Just like dogs don't come pre-trained kids aren't born as tiny adults ready to reason out how best to react in a situation or to respond to a command issued by their parents. Many small children are naturally attracted to dogs and will repeatedly run towards them (particularly if they have dogs at home or at a relatives home). You were at a public park not a dog park so the child was not somewhere he wasn't supposed to be, it sucks that he kept running up to your dog but that is the risk you take when you take your dog out in public. Not being there I have no idea if the child's parent was not supervising him well but when I take my child to the park I don't stand on top of him the entire time, I take him to the park to run around and play.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I definitely see your point Remaru and agree t a degree, but I look at it from a different perspective too: If it were my dog (say a large puppy of 6 months) that kept running at a baby like that, the parent of the baby would go NUTS even if the dog was on leash (and with somewhat good cause, especially if it happened repeatedly). Why should parents be held to a lower standard than a dog owner, you'd think a parent would be watching to protect their kid from the world as much as a dog owner should be trying to protect their dog from the world (and the world from their dog for that matter). Sorry if this seems offensive, I am one of those people that doesn't have kids and doesn't know what it is like....completely willing to toss my hands up and say "you know better", since if you have a kid you probably do...even then, I do think I have a somewhat valid perspective....I mean...I don't like kids much, and if a kid kept running at me even without Caeda there I would start getting a little annoyed (though I'm far less potentially dangerous to a kid than a dog).


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## Vernitta (Aug 29, 2008)

I have a two-year-old and I can tell you that they are still babies at that age. I wasn't there so I can't say for certain, but it's entirely possible the mother turned her head for a second and the child was gone. I would love for a parent to tell me they've never had THAT happen. 
You were at a public park where both children and dogs were allowed. You took the risk going there that a child would show interest in your dog. Asking a two year old to leave you alone is like talking to a brick wall. And, I can tell you that if you had yelled in my child's face I would've been on you like white on rice. If you don't like that a child showed interest in your dog and wouldn't leave you alone then you shouldn't have gone to that park. And, if your dog is not used to kids and/or doesn't know how to react to them then you shouldn't have taken it to that park. You were just as much in the wrong as that mother and her child (if you can even consider a curious baby in the wrong).


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I have raised a kid (not my own) and if she had already charged a dog, you better believe I'd have my eye on her or would have left. That's irresponsible.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I've been babysitting for years and often take kids to the park. Two year olds can be gone in a SECOND. So I can excuse it happening once for sure, but two times really shows that the child wasn't being supervised properly. On the other hand, I'd be livid if someone yelled at a two year old that was in my care, let alone my own two year old! I can certainly see why she reacted defensively to you yelling at her child.


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## minireb123 (Apr 17, 2014)

Yelling at a 2 year old is pretty harsh since they are still babies at that age and I don't even think he could really understand you to be honest. I don't think the mom's response was pathetic at all and I probably would have been angry if you yelled at my toddler like you said you did. You took your dog to a park where there were lots of people around so you should expect this thing to happen.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I think it is all a matter of perspective. Is the child running around in an open area with the mother following behind? That is totally normal toddler behavior and what I would consider a reasonable level of supervision for a public place. Or is the child running around with the parent no where in sight? A child darting off once is pretty typical, it happens. It happening more than once is still not out of the norm but yeah if I know my child is interested in something I don't want them near/potentially dangerous I move them away from the area (water, a strange dog, a person I don't know or I think they might be annoying). Now fair or not we are humans and our world is human centric, that means that at a public park where both humans and dogs have access humans are always going to have preferential treatment. A tiny human has far less potential for causing harm to a puppy than an out of control dog/puppy has for causing harm to a toddler. Again, whether you think that is fair or not and I have owned dogs far longer than I have been a parent, I love my dogs very much. I started teaching my children from birth how to behave around dogs and you will never ever catch one of my boys running up to a strange dog, they never pet without permission and though you may get a sad face if you tell them "no you can't pet him/her" they understand not all dogs are friendly. However at two children do not reason the same as they do at even 4 or 5, they just want something and move towards it. Ultimately, again fair or not, humans are in charge of the world, not dogs. That tiny human will grow up into an adult and he has to learn about his world something he cannot do if his mother sits on top of him.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

you can train and exercise anywhere. when you encounter distractions incorporate them into your training.


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## Arya of House Stark (Jan 14, 2014)

Well, I got angry with the mother and child because clearly she wasn't watching her kid. One time it happens, fine. Second time within less then 10 minutes, then that's irresponsible, especially since she wasn't keeping an eye on her kid. None of the parents I know would've let their kids do that, especially when they see a lot of dogs/crowds in the park.

I just wish more parents would teach their kids from a young age how to interact with animals, but can't win 'em all I guess.

Doggiepop-Yea, I thought of that after. Honestly, I was just so irritated at the mother not watching her kid that it slipped my mind.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

As someone who has a toddler who can dash off in the blink of an eye, I can sympathize.(although he has no interest in running up to any strange dogs and does not do so) Although we do leave wherever we happen to be if he tries to run off more than once, a park is generally an area where parents can let their small children run a bit. Yelling at a two year old is both pointless (much like yelling at someone else's puppy) and rude. (and that's coming from someone who isn't a kid person outside of my own child)

In regards to exercising, I prefer not going to dog parks, and none of our city parks allow dogs at all. So my dogs get regular boring neighborhood walks. When combined with training and different exercises, they're generally more worn out than when allowed to just run amok.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Arya of House Stark said:


> I just wish more parents would teach their kids from a young age how to interact with animals, but can't win 'em all I guess.


Try teaching a 2 year old something and expect them to retain the information and abide by it. LOL 

We are constantly reminding my 2 year old sister how to behave around dogs... CONSTANTLY. This doesn't stop her from doing the exact opposite of what we tell her. Regardless of punishment as well.


I understand your frustration but you were at a public, human park... Chill


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm more of a dog person than a baby person but this was a regular park, not a dog park. It's not primarily for canine use, and there's no toddler leash law. Two-year-olds can be really fast and wily, and they are not known for being amazing listeners.

Should the parent be doing her best to keep her kid away from strange dogs, and teach the kid dog manners? Of course. But the presence of other people are the price to pay for doing your training in a public park. Does it suck that you don't have your own personal outdoor space for training? Yeah, but you presumably knew your living situation when you chose to get an active young dog. I think it's out of line to be harsh with someone else's kid when nothing actively malicious was done. Plus, what do you teach the dog when you react to a toddler in that way?


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

If it had been me I would have been frustrated too. But I remember from babysitting my little sister that 2 year olds are brats. If the kid was older I probably would have yelled too but there's a reason they call it the "terrible 2's" lol.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

minireb123 said:


> Yelling at a 2 year old is pretty harsh since they are still babies at that age and I don't even think he could really understand you to be honest. I don't think the mom's response was pathetic at all and I probably would have been angry if you yelled at my toddler like you said you did. You took your dog to a park where there were lots of people around so you should expect this thing to happen.


Better to yell at the kid than have him think running up to strange dogs is ok and get bitten in the face, no? And it's a public park, yes, _where dogs are allowed off leash_ so reasonably the mother should expect to encounter dogs (that cuts both ways).

Sorry, not sorry that I think letting a child run up to a strange dog TWICE in ten minutes is irresponsible and I do think the mother's reaction was pretty pathetic. If the mother let her child run out into traffic twice in the same period of time, would people be as forgiving because it's so hard to supervise a two year old?


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

This is just the opinion of the mother of a 22 month old baby boy...

If your dog is not safe around human beings OR if you want absolute privacy, a PUBLIC PARK is probably not where you should go to train. 

And let me be frank here: you may think that you're intimidating and tough but you would have thought twice about being so rude to this little southern girl. Bless your heart.


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## Smeslie (Mar 3, 2014)

Love this!


TheOtherCorgi said:


> This is just the opinion of the mother of a 22 month old baby boy...
> 
> If your dog is not safe around human beings OR if you want absolute privacy, a PUBLIC PARK is probably not where you should go to train.
> 
> And let me be frank here: you may think that you're intimidating and tough but you would have thought twice about being so rude to this little southern girl. Bless your heart.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> If your dog is not safe around human beings OR if you want absolute privacy, a PUBLIC PARK is probably not where you should go to train.


And if you want to let your child run and play but are not ready to watch them like a hawk, a park WHERE DOGS ARE ALLOWED OFF LEAD is probably not where you should go walk. 

It works both ways. While I think yelling at the child was a bit extreme, it's understandable. And if you (general you) can forgive the mother for failing to supervise her child, you can definitely forgive Arya for losing her cool in an irritating and possibly dangerous situation.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

The kid running off once isn't really a huge thing, but after that the mother should have stepped up her supervision and/or redirected the kid to a different activity than running around. (Maybe a snack or drink, move to another play area, play a game, etc)

Realistically, if OP's dog had whipped around in surprise and nipped the child the dog would be the one in a bad situation. I probably wouldn't have yelled (like others said, the kid probably didn't understand anyway) but I can understand the frustration.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Love this!


Whistlejacket said:


> And if you want to let your child run and play but are not ready to watch them like a hawk, a park WHERE DOGS ARE ALLOWED OFF LEAD is probably not where you should go walk.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Sometimes we react in the heat of the moment in a way we wouldn't if we had time to formulate a 'proper' response. I think yelling at a toddler is extreme, and I think the mom should have been more alert to the possibility that her child might run toward the dog again. Her response wasn't great, although she obviously tried (and succeeded) in distracting her baby the second time. I doubt you intimidated her, though. But really, you might rethink yelling at little kids. Some parents will see as much red as you apparently were seeing and then you probably aren't going to be interested in staying around for doggy training.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

BubbaMoose said:


> Love this!


I see what you did there


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I've had kids come running at Pip at the dog park, and I've tried politely trying to redirect them, tell them, or ask them to leave him alone (depending on their age). Not one of any age has EVER listened to me unless I've yelled at them I SAID LEAVE HIM ALONE. So yea, I'm pretty quick to yell at them. Just sayin'. 

And a dog doesn't need to be dangerous for an owner to object to little kids running up to them.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Really some of these comments are just ridiculous. A person with a dog shouldn't have the right to expect to have their personal space respected? God forbid if someone had a dog that kept running up to a child after the mother freaked out the first time it happened. They'd be labeled an irresponsible owner right away. But it's okay for a parent to allow their child to do that to someone's dog. That's irresponsible parenting right there. Especially when the owner makes it blatantly clear that such behavior can result in a bite. Even if the person is too much of a jerk to respect another person's request for space, they should care enough about their child to not want to have them bit. Even an excited puppy just nipping from wanting to play hurts & who's fault would it be of the puppy were to have nipped the child, even if just trying to play, the owners & the dog. Such bs.

As far as yelling at a 2 year old, things happen in the heat of the moment and if it saved the child from getting bit then so be it.




TheOtherCorgi said:


> This is just the opinion of the mother of a 22 month old baby boy...
> 
> If your dog is not safe around human beings OR if you want absolute privacy, a PUBLIC PARK is probably not where you should go to train.
> 
> And let me be frank here: you may think that you're intimidating and tough but you would have thought twice about being so rude to this little southern girl. Bless your heart.


Lol, hell hath no fury like a mother scorned. 

I don't get how it's being rude if your trying to protect your own and the child. I'm sorry but my own will always come first before anyone else. Whether that's my dog or my sister or whatever. Someone else's parenting and child's feelings will never be my concern if my dog is at risk of being hurt (in this case potentially being labeled as dangerous, taken away, etc) because of their actions. The woman got warned once. Getting yelled at is a hell of a lot better then a nip to the face.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Whether you like it or not, the fact is that children come before dogs. You might want to protect your "own", but your dogs are not tiny humans. There's a difference. If you bring your dog to a public park, you can expect a rowdy kid to run up to it and you don't have the right to yell at the kid. A kid acting like this in a dog park? Sure. A park mainly for humans that dogs happen to be allowed in? No way. If there's any chance your dog might bite a random child, it is completely irresponsible to bring that dog to a park that is frequented by small children.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

No, children don't come before dogs. Some random child doesn't come before my dog, sorry


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## minireb123 (Apr 17, 2014)

sassafras said:


> Better to yell at the kid than have him think running up to strange dogs is ok and get bitten in the face, no? And it's a public park, yes, _where dogs are allowed off leash_ so reasonably the mother should expect to encounter dogs (that cuts both ways).
> 
> Sorry, not sorry that I think letting a child run up to a strange dog TWICE in ten minutes is irresponsible and I do think the mother's reaction was pretty pathetic. If the mother let her child run out into traffic twice in the same period of time, would people be as forgiving because it's so hard to supervise a two year old?


I understand that people on this forum are going to be very angry with me but the fact of the matter is that a dog will come second to a human being in almost all cases. Yes, we all love our dogs but there is no way my dog holds the same significance to me as my sister or even a toddler in the park. Letting a child run into traffic repeatedly is irresponsible but taking a dog to a crowded public park with small children around when you're not at least 100% sure that your dog will not react badly is even more irresponsible. And expecting to be left alone in a _ crowded public park _ is asking a LOT. Yes I understand you probably lost your temper but yelling at other people's children is not usually the mature thing to do.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Yes in a public park children come before dogs. Your dog will not grow into a human, sorry it is just a fact. In a dog park children should not be present so I will agree 100% that a child should not be running at a dog in a dog park. I will agree that children really shouldn't be running at dogs in general, they should be redirected but honestly toddlers are babies and they don't get it, they just don't. If your dog is in a public park they should be at the very least human friendly (particularly if they are off leash in a public park). You may not like children, you may not think that humans come before dogs but we are humans and live in a human centric society so humans come first that is just the way it works.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Eenypup said:


> If there's any chance your dog might bite a random child, it is completely irresponsible to bring that dog to a park that is frequented by small children.


ANY dog, and I mean ANY dog, can bite under certain circumstances, so according to your logic, we shouldn't take our dogs anywhere where they might encounter humans... which is undoable and an unreasonable expectation anyway. 

Children may come before dogs, but that doesn't mean that DANGEROUS behaviour towards a dog should be tolerated. Yelling at a child that young is harsh, yes, but it also _protects it from getting bitten_, so I don't understand the criticism. What else was Arya supposed to do in a situation where she had to deal with both her dog and a strange child, with no parents in sight?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> No, children don't come before dogs. Some random child doesn't come before my dog, sorry


Of course, nobody can say what's more important to YOU. But in society in general, children do come first and it needs to be that way. Dogs will not grow up to run the world and care for older people. Dogs do not need to be encouraged to explore the world so they can become secure and independent people. Dogs will live 12-15 years and their lives will consist of being dogs. Children will live 80-100 years and their lives will be the future of society. Clearly there's a priority here. 

That said, if you have to yell to get a kid (or adult) to stop advancing on your dog, well, then you have to. It's for their own safety. I would not be mad if someone yelled at my kid (if I had any ) saying something like "no, stop, don't come near my dog" or something along those lines. Yelling more than that, insulting them, saying mean things. . .oh, yeah, I'd be mad. Like "the female of the species is more deadly than the male" mad.


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

I think it's unfortunate and very annoying, but it's going to happen. I've already been standing, waiting for someone at a public park, and had a kid sneak up on my dog from behind, more than once. Buffy is very friendly and pretty good with kids, but I still don't trust that she won't jump up out of excitement and accidentally hurt a kid. It still scares me every time it happens. But, it's great when parents are responsible and teach even their young kids to ask before petting. I always warn that she may jump, but I also firmly hold her collar to keep that from happening.

I don't have kids, but know a few 2-year-old-ish boys from friends and family. Boy those kids are fast. Drop something on the ground and take a second to pick it up, and the kid is suddenly half-way across the yard. It's like their mission to run away as fast as possible as soon as their parent is distracted for a second. So, while I do sympathize with the OP, it's just something that you have to anticipate when you're sharing a space with children. It's frustrating, but part of the job of keeping a dog safe is to not put the dog in situations where it's set up to fail, or to at least prepare for problem situations as well as you can.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Of course, nobody can say what's more important to YOU. But in society in general, children do come first and it needs to be that way. Dogs will not grow up to run the world and care for older people. Dogs do not need to be encouraged to explore the world so they can become secure and independent people. Dogs will live 12-15 years and their lives will consist of being dogs. Children will live 80-100 years and their lives will be the future of society. Clearly there's a priority here.
> 
> That said, if you have to yell to get a kid (or adult) to stop advancing on your dog, well, then you have to. It's for their own safety. I would not be mad if someone yelled at my kid (if I had any ) saying something like "no, stop, don't come near my dog" or something along those lines. Yelling more than that, insulting them, saying mean things. . .oh, yeah, I'd be mad. Like "the female of the species is more deadly than the male" mad.


I'm not saying children don't come first in the larger world picture but that's not really what this is about. Basically, it comes down to being a parent and having a child makes you more important than being a dog owner and owning a dog. Everyone is defending the mother and child yet the dog owner and dog aren't a concern. Basically, as a dog owner you don't deserve respect and you're not as important as a mother and her child. Which is fine if people want to think about it that way. I could honestly, really, care less about what other people think of their animals but I don't have kids and my dog is like my child. I would do anything and everything to protect him. He has a personality, he has feelings, he's a living thing and if the actions of some random child who's mother can't be responsible enough or respectful enough to listen to a first warning to "please stay away from me" were to potentially put my dog in a dangerous situation, my dog would be my first priority. 

In this situation, I'm not even really thinking it's an issue of aggression so saying that a dog shouldn't even be taken out anywhere without 100% confidence and there being no chance of biting is ridiculous. I'ts pretty easy for a puppy to get hyped up and maybe jump up on the child and nip them and then you have a screaming, crying child and a mother freaking out and all you were trying to do is train your damn dog. Like seriously, that's not okay.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> I've had kids come running at Pip at the dog park, and I've tried politely trying to redirect them, tell them, or ask them to leave him alone (depending on their age). Not one of any age has EVER listened to me unless I've yelled at them I SAID LEAVE HIM ALONE. So yea, I'm pretty quick to yell at them. Just sayin'.
> 
> And a dog doesn't need to be dangerous for an owner to object to little kids running up to them.


e en the ccalmest dog could get startled and snap if a child runs up ehind them, ive startled roxie purposely before Bc im a jerk lol and she whips around before you realize. She just touches my hand with her muzzle but if a stranger did that i have no doubt she would bite them, especially a kid. Parents sshould never let their kid run up to strange dogs no matter how friendly the dog seems.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Eenypup said:


> Whether you like it or not, the fact is that children come before dogs. You might want to protect your "own", but your dogs are not tiny humans. There's a difference. If you bring your dog to a public park, you can expect a rowdy kid to run up to it and you don't have the right to yell at the kid. A kid acting like this in a dog park? Sure. A park mainly for humans that dogs happen to be allowed in? No way. If there's any chance your dog might bite a random child, it is completely irresponsible to bring that dog to a park that is frequented by small children.


1. To me, my dog comes before some random kid's feelings about getting yelled at.
2. If you bring your child to a park where dogs are allowed off leash, it's a good idea to supervise closely and not allow your kid to run up to random dogs you don't know. If all else fails and they do slip away, I've never met or cared for a toddler I couldn't outrun if I was actually, you know, paying attention to what they were doing. 
3. I have the right to yell at whomever I please for whatever reason. You're not the yelling police, and nobody has a right not to get yelled at. And if I ask a child politely to leave my dog alone and they keep coming, then yea I'm going to yell at them - and they deserve it. 
4. If dogs for whom ANY chance of a dog biting a child who charged up to them shouldn't be at the park, then NO dogs should be at the park EVER.

ETA: I was at the dog park once and a random kid came out of nowhere and hugged Pip before I could even react (and back in the day when I still cared if people thought I was a witch for yelling at kids trying to hug my dog). He didn't bite, but he was uncomfortable, and after seeing how intensely uncomfortable he was I don't allow kids to approach him anymore. Your kid doesn't have a right to make my dog uncomfortable just because you think I shouldn't get to tell your kid (politely or impolitely) to stay away, even if I don't think he will bite.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

This is the reason many parks do not allow dogs, because people think their dog is more important than the people around them. Lets take the child out of this equation and make it a teenager running to catch a frisbee. He isn't paying attention to where he is going and gets way too close to your dog. Does your dog snap at him? Is it ok to yell at him because he got too close to your dog? He is using the park for its intended purpose and I guarantee if your dog bites him you and your dog are the ones in trouble not him. Now lets replace the teen with a man jogging who gets a little too close to your dog. Does your dog lunge and snap? How about some one chasing their dog that is off lead (doesn't matter why the dog is off lead but apparently it has poor recall) and they blunder into your dog. Does your dog bite them because they bump into him/her? All of these people are teen/adult and more than capable of understanding proper dog/person etiquette. A toddler is not capable of understanding whether you tell them politely or shout it at them they just don't get it yet, they lack reason and impulse control. Mom can redirect but chances are if the toddler really wants the dog only moving really far away will help and that toddler has just as much right to be in that park as your dog does. This is the sucky thing about training in public, you have to interact with public. People are reacting to this thread the way they are because it isn't really "irresponsible parenting" it is just life. You have a dog in a public park, a kid was interested in the dog, he came up to you twice and you were rude.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

While I'm not fond of Children, & would prefer to own a dog over a Child. NO dog becomes before any child,not even if I owned a dog. But, I have no problems with yelling at Child. I don't enjoy it,but I'd rather yell at Child, then the Child getting bit.


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## DieselandKiwi (Apr 16, 2014)

Haha wow, started reading and this forum went from ranting to some serious anger.

In my opinion (And that is all that it is, an opinion), if you are at a dog/"people" park and it is considered an off leash area, then the people going to it should be _expecting_ there to be dogs off leash... There are many parks (At least where I live) where dogs aren't allowed at all, and I am sure there are a few there. There are many more parks where dogs are not allowed than where dogs are allowed. And on that note there are very few off leash parks (That aren't just dog parks). THEREFORE, yes, children will be children, I totally understand that it is IMPOSSIBLE to watch a child 24/7. They get away. It happens. It is a good thing the the OP was being aware of her surroundings and realized this child coming up behind her dog. Yes children won't understand "Dog could bite, biting is bad, leave her alone"... But that shouldn't be the owners responsibility completely either. The parent should have some responsibility in this. Yes, dogs should not be biting people, yes people are the "top" of the food chain. But that doesn't mean that people should be able to get away with whatever they want no matter their age. Should people be allowed to go around biting other people? No.. Obviously. I understand walking up to a strange dog and biting other humans is an extreme (and cannibalistic....) but still. We have an expectation set out for dogs, there should also be an expectation set out for humans. When an owner brings their dog to a dog park (Whether it has humans or not) they MUST watch their dogs at all times, and monitor their interaction. Why shouldn't people be required to watch their children at all times while out in public as well. 
Like mentioned before. I understand stuff happens, but that was kind of the first time the kid ran up. The second time was like, you've been warned, dog could bite, leave strange dogs alone and as a parent it is your job to control your child, as it is the OP's job to control her dog (Which it sounds like she was doing to the best of her abilities). 
I know if someone came up behind my Kiwi unexpectedly, especially if she was focused on me in training, she may turn out of defense in fear... For that reason I do not bring her to any parks, nor dog parks because I cannot control other people's dogs. Does that mean she shouldn't be allowed to walk around other humans? NO. I will not put myself in a situation where I put myself or my dog at risk (Of being labelled dangerous etc. or being hurt). By the sounds of the original post it's not necessarily that her dog WOULD for sure bite, but more of a warning to the mom. Dogs could bite, you never know what a strange dog should do. Please don't let your child be bit by a dog...

There's my long rant to the long rant!
EVERYONE KEEP YOUR PEOPLE AND YOUR DOGS IN CHECK AND LIVE HAPPY!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Remaru said:


> People are reacting to this thread the way they are because it isn't really "irresponsible parenting" it is just life. You have a dog in a public park, a kid was interested in the dog, he came up to you twice and you were rude.


Once is just life. Twice is irresponsible and not supervising your kid.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

I find this entire thread to be ridiculous. 

Since when do people in parks have to come in contact with one another...crowded or not. 

Parents, mind your kid. 

Dog owners, mind your dog. 

If these two things happened simultaneously this thread wouldn't even exist.

I don't think it's unrealistic for me to expect you to keep your child from running rampant towards me and my dog. As I assume you wouldn't find it unrealistic to expect me to keep my dog from running rampant towards you and your child.



sassafras said:


> Once is just life. Twice is irresponsible and not supervising your kid.


Quoting for emphasis!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Remaru said:


> Now lets replace the teen with a man jogging who gets a little too close to your dog. Does your dog lunge and snap?


A better comparison would be a jogger running directly AT my dog, not a jogger running by a little closely.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Whistlejacket said:


> I see what you did there


Heh. I haven't the slightest idea of what you could possibly be talking about...


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

sassafras said:


> 1. To me, my dog comes before some random kid's feelings about getting yelled at.
> 2. If you bring your child to a park where dogs are allowed off leash, it's a good idea to supervise closely and not allow your kid to run up to random dogs you don't know. If all else fails and they do slip away, I've never met or cared for a toddler I couldn't outrun if I was actually, you know, paying attention to what they were doing.
> 3. I have the right to yell at whomever I please for whatever reason. You're not the yelling police, and nobody has a right not to get yelled at. And if I ask a child politely to leave my dog alone and they keep coming, then yea I'm going to yell at them - and they deserve it.
> 4. If dogs for whom ANY chance of a dog biting a child who charged up to them shouldn't be at the park, then NO dogs should be at the park EVER.
> ...


This is a TWO year old. My dog does not come before his feelings or his mother's. I sure am not the "yelling police", wtf? I can and you can yell at whoever you want. Want to yell at the nice person holding the door open for you? SURE! But it's still rude. Yelling at other people's children is rude. I am well aware I have no authority to stop you from doing so. Do you really think a two year old has any idea or remembers what you told him 10 minutes ago? I'll give you a hint, he doesn't. 

Was the parent being a bit irresponsible? Probably. I can still see why she was defensive about this dog owner yelling at her toddler.


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

Teaching manners to a two year old is not an easy task. So I agree that yelling at the child was probably counter productive and only served to piss the mother off. Children at that age are also difficult to supervise 100% of the time (I don't judge any parent that uses those child leashes haha), but that being said she probably wasn't being as attentive as she should have been. I also do outdoor obedience with my puppy in a public park. Whenever a child approaches interested in my dog, some only being able to say the phrase "hi puppy", I ask them to walk over slowly, kneel down and rub Chico under the chin gently. It's a win-win because the child learns puppy manners and Chico learns children manners.


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## DieselandKiwi (Apr 16, 2014)

Eenypup said:


> Do you really think a two year old has any idea or remembers what you told him 10 minutes ago? I'll give you a hint, he doesn't.


A two year old probably doesn't have a clue what was being said or remembers it, however, that is where the parent comes in. If a puppy nips at a smaller child, and you or small child's mother tells the puppy no don't do that, the dog has no idea nor does it remember what was said to it. If this puppy runs back and nips the small child again does that make it okay? Probably not, and probably also in for some choice words because that is someone's child. It was the dog owners responsibility in this case to keep their dog away from the small child and realize that maybe there needs to be some training done before they can be exposed to that again, if not completely remove the dog that day. So if the roles are reversed why isn't there the same expectation. The "puppy" in this scenerio would have been "scarring" the child. So why is okay for a child to scare a puppy?


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Ok, the "still a baby" comments tick me off. That is exactly why the CHILD SHOULD NOT BE RUNNING AROUND FAR ENOUGH AWAY TO STARTLE/ENGAGE A STRANGER OR DOG BEFORE THE PARENT CAN INTERVENE! 

The child's age is NOT AN EXCUSE! In fact, it shows that the parent is even MORE at fault and even MORE irresponsible. That 2 year old should NEVER have been in a position to run up to a strange dog not once, but TWICE! And if the child did run up to the wrong dog and get bit / attacked (or worse) the idiot parent would act the victim and blame the dog: When the one at fault would be the PARENT!

This individual at least had her animal on leash, supervised and working to train and improve the animal's public manners. Thats a heck of a lot more than that mother was bothering with. 

If you as a parent can't wrap your head around that, THIS little Southern Girl will rip you a new one if your irresponsibility puts YOUR kid and MY dog at risk. Bless your heart.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Eenypup said:


> This is a TWO year old. My dog does not come before his feelings or his mother's.


That's nice for you. I, on the other hand, am not afraid to tell a two year old making a beeline for my dog to stop and leave us alone - and yes, yell if I have to if he doesn't listen to me unless I do - because I might hurt his feelings. In the real world, you don't get to do whatever you want in public whether you are two or twenty or eighty. 



> I sure am not the "yelling police", wtf? I can and you can yell at whoever you want. Want to yell at the nice person holding the door open for you? SURE! But it's still rude. Yelling at other people's children is rude. I am well aware I have no authority to stop you from doing so. Do you really think a two year old has any idea or remembers what you told him 10 minutes ago? I'll give you a hint, he doesn't.


Oh, god forbid I might be perceived as rude. That would be the worst. I better just let anyone do whatever they want to my dog so they don't think I'm rude. :/ 

And if he doesn't remember what I told him 10 minutes ago, I guess it doesn't matter if I yell at him, right?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

doesn't the world seem so crazy now ? If us kids were standing around an animal and the animal acted out,, every parent in the room would be grabbing their kids to correct the kid for messing with the animal..


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My dog would definitely bite (well one of them) if pushed too far by a kid. In fact she has snapped at unruly kids before when we were unexpectedly surrounded by 7 kids (two screaming) at a pet store a couple months ago. 

People come before dogs, yes, but that DOESN'T mean a dog owner should expect to be accosted by a bunch of kids. It doesn't mean a dog can't react to a bad situation. 

Most dogs will bite in the right circumstances. I doubt Summer would ever but she is a truly exceptionally friendly and tolerant dog. Most dogs are not her. 

I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation other than pick mia up asap but that's lucky because I can do that- she's small. My dog is very well behaved in stressful situations. She has been in all sorts of crowds full of dogs and people. But she's not a robot.

People need to watch their kids and people need to watch their dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also parks do not mean you are walking your dogs through a playground. My park we go to is 400 acres. Yes, there's several playgrounds and a skate park. Plenty of room for me to be reasonably certain no kids would be accosting us.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

sassafras said:


> 1. To me, my dog comes before some random kid's feelings about getting yelled at.
> 2. If you bring your child to a park where dogs are allowed off leash, it's a good idea to supervise closely and not allow your kid to run up to random dogs you don't know. If all else fails and they do slip away, I've never met or cared for a toddler I couldn't outrun if I was actually, you know, paying attention to what they were doing.
> 3. I have the right to yell at whomever I please for whatever reason. You're not the yelling police, and nobody has a right not to get yelled at. And if I ask a child politely to leave my dog alone and they keep coming, then yea I'm going to yell at them - and they deserve it.
> 4. If dogs for whom ANY chance of a dog biting a child who charged up to them shouldn't be at the park, then NO dogs should be at the park EVER.
> ...


IMO, this is the best reply so far.

If you have to be "rude" to stop a potential disaster from happening, so be it! 

We have a toddler next door; Bella was outside on her lead and the kid came over and was picking up pine cones (don't know where his parents were), he was ignoring Bella and Bella was ignoring him. Then out of nowhere he runs up, HUGS Bella and runs back. I had the same reaction as Sass, and Bella had the same reaction as Pip. Neither Bella or I dared move...LOL

The next time the kid wandered over and made a bees line *right* towards Bella. And yes, I yelled at him after he decided he didn't want to listen and kept coming. 
I couldn't very well say, "wait one moment, please. I must converse with your parents". I had to stop him in his tracks! I did feel kinda bad, but I didn't have a choice.


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## Arya of House Stark (Jan 14, 2014)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Really some of these comments are just ridiculous. A person with a dog shouldn't have the right to expect to have their personal space respected? God forbid if someone had a dog that kept running up to a child after the mother freaked out the first time it happened. They'd be labeled an irresponsible owner right away. But it's okay for a parent to allow their child to do that to someone's dog. That's irresponsible parenting right there. Especially when the owner makes it blatantly clear that such behavior can result in a bite. Even if the person is too much of a jerk to respect another person's request for space, they should care enough about their child to not want to have them bit. Even an excited puppy just nipping from wanting to play hurts & who's fault would it be of the puppy were to have nipped the child, even if just trying to play, the owners & the dog. Such bs.
> 
> As far as yelling at a 2 year old, things happen in the heat of the moment and if it saved the child from getting bit then so be it.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to reply to each one, but this sums up why I did what I did. I'm sorry if people don't like it or think I'm rude, but the ones I love--both human and animal--will always take precedence over some random person.

It's common knowledge that dogs are allowed off-leash in the park I go to and it behooves parents to watch their kids knowing a lot of dog owners go there, with both leashed (like my two) and un-leashed dogs. If the kid had run up once to Zoe, okay fine. It's annoying, but things happen and I understand that. For example, I had some little old grandma charge at me a few weeks ago asking if she could pet my dogs. I just shook my head no, and we each moved on to different sections of the park. 

However, the mother clearly wasn't watching the kid and *that* is highly irresponsible. All dogs bite given the right circumstances, and if by yelling at her and the kid to stay away from strange dogs saves a) her kid from getting bit and b) a dog owner the trouble of having their dog taken away or Gods forbid, put down, then so be it. 

I also don't think it's unreasonable to expect that people respect my personal space in the park. If I see kids, I move out of the way to a quieter area and normally, if a family or someone else sees me training Zoe, they leave me in peace. It's a matter of respect and having manners, in my opinion. 

I'm childfree and vastly prefer pets over having kids, but I have respect for the parents who take the time out to watch their children and teach them how to behave around animals. I don't have much respect for parents who don't do that. Yea, a kid that age doesn't really understand. Fair enough, but then the parent should step up and keep a closer eye on the child.

That being said,I've got nothing against well-behaved, well-mannered children and I'm lucky in that the children on my block are very nice. They get a kick out of Esme and Zoe and I have no problems letting them pet my two because they're good with animals. Their parents definitely raised them right from an early age, and I respect them for that.

Also, to clarify on the park: there's a large green, hilly area where people take their dogs (and the park is well-known for being dog friendly) and next door is a playground, where most of the kids congregate. Generally, the younger kids hang out in the playground and the only thing most dog owners have to keep an eye out for is a baseball game or a game of catch. Maybe a few bikes every once in a while, but that's rare. We were in the green space and pretty far away from the playground.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

PatriciafromCO said:


> doesn't the world seem so crazy now ? If us kids were standing around an animal and the animal acted out,, every parent in the room would be grabbing their kids to correct the kid for messing with the animal..


Isn't that the truth! Then tell the kid "I told you so" when the dog DID bite...LOL


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

So I have an opinion here and I'll probably state it and then leave the thread because it's not necessarily worth hammering over... or I'll lurk.. who knows... 
Anyway - Mother of 2 here, big time animal lover, and so on and so forth.... 
When I take my dog to a dog park, I keep my kids close - because it's a dog park, not a park designed for children to be running amok. 
When I take my children to the playgrounds, I keep my dog close - because it's a public park full of children and other dogs who may not know how to act with my dog. Regardless of the situation, I watch my children like a hawk. My son is afraid of dogs, so I don't have to worry about him running over to strange dogs we don't know. My daughter, although only 6.5 months old, seems to have my admiration for animals.. she reaches out for the dog and cats all the time, *at home*. In public, I keep her close and away from dogs we don't know. 

The situation you describe OP is very frustrating and really there is no 'right' way to handle what occurred. You were in a public park where people bring their children to burn off energy and take a break from the chaos that is their children. They too, were in a public park where people bring their dogs for walks and training sessions and so on... Unfortunately, when you're in a common area, there are going to be times where you will have run ins with 2 year olds running from their exhausted parents. 

It may have been a complete lack of supervision.. or it could have been that all the supervision in the world wouldn't have mattered.
At 3 years old, my son left school property, crossed a busy street, and got picked up by a complete stranger in a pickup truck. *3 Years Old* *AT SCHOOl!!* during *recess* while *teachers were out patrolling*! He had all the supervision in the world, but he still slipped under the radar and left. Unfortunately, when you're in a busy place and not within arms reach of a young child at all times, this is something that happens. The fact that the Mother was running behind the kid each time shows that she was watching. She was putting forth some effort. It's called the terrible 2's for a reason. 

I'm sorry that it happened to you specifically and that it upset you so.


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## minireb123 (Apr 17, 2014)

BostonBullMama said:


> It may have been a complete lack of supervision.. or it could have been that all the supervision in the world wouldn't have mattered.
> At 3 years old, my son left school property, crossed a busy street, and got picked up by a complete stranger in a pickup truck. *3 Years Old* *AT SCHOOl!!* during *recess* while *teachers were out patrolling*! He had all the supervision in the world, but he still slipped under the radar and left. Unfortunately, when you're in a busy place and not within arms reach of a young child at all times, this is something that happens. The fact that the Mother was running behind the kid each time shows that she was watching. She was putting forth some effort. It's called the terrible 2's for a reason.
> 
> I'm sorry that it happened to you specifically and that it upset you so.


Yes I completely agree with you! Especially since OP said the mom apologized over and over the first time which means she at least knew it wasn't a good idea to let her child that close to OP's dog. She didn't seem to be upset at OP until her son was yelled at and anyone who has young kids or who has even cared for young kids would have reacted the same way seeing a stranger yelling at their child. Reading all these posts, I understand that any dog has the potential to bite a child at almost any time but if you are that uncertain about your dog that you find it necessary to yell at a 2 year old and then go on to compare approaching your dog to running into traffic then you shouldn't bring your dog to a public park that a lot of people go to.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

BostonBullMama said:


> So I have an opinion here and I'll probably state it and then leave the thread because it's not necessarily worth hammering over... or I'll lurk.. who knows...
> Anyway - Mother of 2 here, big time animal lover, and so on and so forth....
> When I take my dog to a dog park, I keep my kids close - because it's a dog park, not a park designed for children to be running amok.
> When I take my children to the playgrounds, I keep my dog close - because it's a public park full of children and other dogs who may not know how to act with my dog. Regardless of the situation, I watch my children like a hawk. My son is afraid of dogs, so I don't have to worry about him running over to strange dogs we don't know. My daughter, although only 6.5 months old, seems to have my admiration for animals.. she reaches out for the dog and cats all the time, *at home*. In public, I keep her close and away from dogs we don't know.
> ...


Sorry, thats BoguS. Tired or not, you don't make your kids other people's issue.

If I was exhausted raising puppies, brought them to the park and let them run loose and they bit a kid, will I be excused by saying "I'm so tired, all the supervision in the world wouldn't have helped, he is just a puppy, he doesn't know any better. Its your own fault for bringing your supervised, controlled child to a park where my off leash, ill-mannered dog is BOUND to run into him at some point. And how DARE you yell at my poor puppy, he doesn't know any better!"

Of course not. It would be expected that I buck up, be responsible and supervise and control my animal at all times. The SAME responsibility falls to parents and their children. MORE SO in my opinion, as children that young are more defenseless and more at risk. 

No. Total BoguS no matter how you look at it. 

And no, the 3 year old was obviously NOT well supervised in that situation and I'd have had choice words for the school.
It may seem innocent enough a mistake since he was returned safely. But you'd be singing a different tune if he hadn't. There is NO excuse for not being diligent with a child, especially a young one. And in that event, the ONLY one responsible for what happens is the parent or guardian whose job is to supervise and protect the child.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

minireb123 said:


> Yes I completely agree with you! Especially since OP said the mom apologized over and over the first time which means she at least knew it wasn't a good idea to let her child that close to OP's dog. She didn't seem to be upset at OP until her son was yelled at and anyone who has young kids or who has even cared for young kids would have reacted the same way seeing a stranger yelling at their child. Reading all these posts, I understand that any dog has the potential to bite a child at almost any time but if you are that uncertain about your dog that you find it necessary to yell at a 2 year old and then go on to compare approaching your dog to running into traffic then you shouldn't bring your dog to a public park that a lot of people go to.


The fact she knew it was wrong and let it happen again makes it worse. She should have clued in and taken better care after the first incident. Realistically though, there shouldn't have even BEEN a first incident.

The child would not have been yelled at if the mother was doing what she should have been doing in the first place. Yes, yelling at a child is not ideal. The OP should have never been put in that position to begin with. If the mother isn't going to supervise her child or teach the child proper behavior around animals, she (and no one else) does not have much of a leg to stand on to complain when someone else is put into a position of doing it for her.

Just like a dog owner would have no leg to stand on if someone hit or yelled at their off leash dog when it ran over to accost/greet their child.

If a parent can't control or adequately supervise their child and prevent their child from accosting strangers, strange dogs or running into traffic: They shouldn't take them to public areas to make them everyone else's responsibility.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

sassafras said:


> 1. To me, my dog comes before some random kid's feelings about getting yelled at.
> 2. If you bring your child to a park where dogs are allowed off leash, it's a good idea to supervise closely and not allow your kid to run up to random dogs you don't know. If all else fails and they do slip away, I've never met or cared for a toddler I couldn't outrun if I was actually, you know, paying attention to what they were doing.
> 3. I have the right to yell at whomever I please for whatever reason. You're not the yelling police, and nobody has a right not to get yelled at. And if I ask a child politely to leave my dog alone and they keep coming, then yea I'm going to yell at them - and they deserve it.
> 4. If dogs for whom ANY chance of a dog biting a child who charged up to them shouldn't be at the park, then NO dogs should be at the park EVER.
> ...


I agree.
They DO make leashes for kids, if it's too difficult for parents to keep an eye on their kids. I really dislike parents with feral children.
The friendliest dog could bite if startled or if a toddler ran up and fell on him. Parents need to protect THEIR kids by holding their hand in surroundings where there are cars/dogs, if the kid isn't trained to stay by their side.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

So if everyone is on a tear about how it's the mom's fault, what was the point in yelling at the toddler? It wasn't the 2 year old's fault. I've worked in fast food, a hotel, raised my baby sister, I've dealt with many 2 year olds and up. I've never had to raise my voice to them when I needed them to stop something. Most are pretty shy and when I (stranger) start talking to them they usually listen or giggle and run the other way. I've never had to use much more than a soft but firm "no" to stop most kids in their tracks. If they are too far away to hear me I move away. And for the ones who don't stop I body block. Then I tell the parents to watch the kid. Having to be constantly vigilant for dogs, I usually see out of control kids a mile away. If anything yell at the mom, not the kid. 

Yelling NO STAY AWAY when the kid hasn't even reached the dog doesn't make your dog look very good and probably doesn't send your dog a good message about kids. "Oh, mom is angry/scared and yelling at that thing, it must be something bad". If they pop out of nowhere and startle you both, that's one thing, I yell when I'm startled but if you see them coming just block, say no, then talk to the parents.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Heh.

With dogs, positive, encouraging methods only!
With kids...eh, scare the heck out of the little monsters, who cares.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I don't think anyone is saying to scare them. But if you are that worried about a kid running up on your dog and you have time to yell at them before they reach you then you probably have time to step in front of your dog or pick them up if they are small. If the dog is aggressive to kids, MAYBE I could see yelling at them but if you know your dog is aggressive they should be muzzled anyway. Not talking about dogs that snap when startled but dogs that you feel the need to yell to keep someone safe.

And I understand that you should be able to train at the park without kids running up to you but it happens anyway. I hate off leash dogs but guess what, happens to me anyway and I had to learn how to deal with it appropriately. I see posts about it all day every day I've posted about it too. People can get all in a huff about it and rightfully so but yelling at everyone to stay away isn't very helpful. It's a public park they have a right to be there too and please pardon the expression but **** happens... It's life... Find a way to make it a positive experience if you can.

If it were me, like I said, step in front of the dog, say no, talk to the mom. Maybe once the mom is there the kid can approach the dog nicely and pet. I would say "See, he's a nice doggy but you have to be nice too." Your dog gets some free socialization/training out of it. You talk to the mom and maybe she watches closer next time. Maybe she doesn't.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Eenypup said:


> This is a TWO year old. My dog does not come before his feelings or his mother's. I sure am not the "yelling police", wtf? I can and you can yell at whoever you want. Want to yell at the nice person holding the door open for you? SURE! But it's still rude. Yelling at other people's children is rude. I am well aware I have no authority to stop you from doing so. Do you really think a two year old has any idea or remembers what you told him 10 minutes ago? I'll give you a hint, he doesn't.
> 
> Was the parent being a bit irresponsible? Probably. I can still see why she was defensive about this dog owner yelling at her toddler.


youre telling me that i should not yell at a 2 year old to protect both them and my dog?? i should just let her be put in a stressful situation that shouldnt be happening in the first place? regardless kids shouldnt be allowed to run around harassing people dog or no dog. and they definitely shouldnt be allowed to run up to strange dogs.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Yelling NO STAY AWAY when the kid hasn't even reached the dog doesn't make your dog look very good and probably doesn't send your dog a good message about kids. "Oh, mom is angry/scared and yelling at that thing, it must be something bad". If they pop out of nowhere and startle you both, that's one thing, I yell when I'm startled but if you see them coming just block, say no, then talk to the parents.


I think this is a very good point! I've been following this thread and have felt torn because I see points for both sides. It's also hard for me to relate because I love kids and plan to have them one day so I take any opportunity I can to socialize our puppy with children. Sometimes when I'm out walking I do want to focus on LLW training, but my neighborhood is full of kids and my dog looks like a big stuffed animal so they're naturally drawn to him (and he happens to adore kids and loves hugs and kisses). Realistically, encountering children is a part of being out in society so I see teaching my dog that squealing, energetic little people are okay and how he should appropriately react to them is as much of a priority as working on a sit stay for instance. 

I wasn't there so I can't say how out of line the parent or OP was in their actions, or lack thereof. Yes, it's important for the kid to learn not to run at strange dogs because it could be very dangerous, but I would have personally handled it differently and I agree that yelling and turning it into such a negative experience may do more harm than good for the dog.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

She did talk to the mom... The *first* time it happened. Didn't help.
So I can understand her frustration when the child again came flying at her dog out of no where.

If this situation were reversed. And she were enjoying an evening with her child (or even still her dog), and someone had a rowdy, but harmless, loose puppy running at her kid. And the first time she told the dog owner it makes her child/dog nervous, to watch their puppy more closely and not let it bother people. And then the dog accosted her and her child/dog AGAIN and she yelled at it to stop it from engaging her and her child/dog long enough for the owner to come up, brush it off as harmless and again make light of their responsibilities toward the puppy...

Many posters making excuses here would agree the owner was irresponsible to let their dog run loose and pestering / scaring others since they had no control and were too far off to intervene themselves. And no one would blame her for raising her voice to stop the dog from engaging her and the child/animal she is guardian of.

So explain to me how the Parents in this thread think a Toddler deserves less responsibility and supervision from their guardians than a dog does? 

And how we can all agree its our responsibility to closely supervise and control our animals, but "kids will be kids" and how dare anyone take issue with children and bad parenting and you can't be expected to do as much as dog owners are expected to do. 

I'm sorry, I'll say it: If you as a mother consider this situation acceptable. Allowing your young, defenseless child to run off and engage strangers and strange dogs at a distance where you can't even personally intervene... And feel its excusable and the only thing you take issue with here is a child received a loud verbal reprimand since the parent couldn't be bothered to parent... Its pretty frightening that this is the new sense of parenting. That is the "Irresponsible Dog Owner" of the parenting world. :/

Yes, there may have been other options other than yelling. But the OP is not the one at fault here.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

This thread is getting a bit ridiculous. Parents and dog owners yelling "irresponsible" at one another.

Seriously...


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> If this situation were reversed. And she were enjoying an evening with her child (or even still her dog), and someone had a rowdy, but harmless, loose puppy running at her kid. And the first time she told the dog owner it makes her child/dog nervous, to watch their puppy more closely and not let it bother people. And then the dog accosted her and her child/dog AGAIN and she yelled at it to stop it from engaging her and her child/dog long enough for the owner to come up, brush it off as harmless and again make light of their responsibilities toward the puppy...


But it's not the same. Dogs are not the same as kids to most people. Dogs DO need a LOT of supervision because at the end of the day it is a carnivore with teeth and claws and can do some real damage if they want to. Kids need supervision for their own protection but in general dogs are seen as friendly, fuzzy and cuddly animals and I have seen lots of parents having no problems with letting their kids run up to dogs and run wild and crazy at the park. Just like a dog park. You can only be responsible for yourself and your animal, does that make it right for kids and dogs to run up on you, no. But knowing that it's pretty much guaranteed to happen and having a plan helps just like dog vs dog scenarios.

Yeah she talked to the mom and it happened again, happens all the time, most people would not really care what some person at the park thinks of their parenting skills and would blow them off just like everyone says to do about people who tell us how to train our dogs. At least she tried, but I do think yelling at the kid was overboard.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> And how we can all agree its our responsibility to closely supervise and control our animals, but "kids will be kids" and how dare anyone take issue with children and bad parenting and you can't be expected to do as much as dog owners are expected to do.


Parents shouldn't control their children as closely as dog owners should. Children need to learn independence and confidence in society if they're going to function. I think we've all met people whose parents kept them too closely controlled. . .it's not good. The two things (proper management of dogs vs proper management of small kids) have nothing to do with each other. There are completely different objectives in raising dogs vs raising kids (besides "keeping them alive", there's really no overlap). 

I don't take any issue with what the OP did at the moment (well, depending what was said in the yelling), but I mean the general concept.


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## Arya of House Stark (Jan 14, 2014)

I probably won't respond to the thread after this since I feel that I've said my piece and if people don't agree with what I did, that's fine, we've all got our own opinions, but I do want to point out that a) Zoe was on a leash and under my control at all times. I would never, ever let her off-leash in a park like that and b) I didn't see or hear the kid at all. If I did, I would've moved Zoe behind me so the kid couldn't get to her.

I get that things like this happen and the first time I could've just been mildly irritated and shrugged it off. The second time, which happened less than ten minutes later, however? Not cool. I try to teach my dogs manners and to keep at eye on them at all times and it would be nice if the mother of the child had done the same. However, she clearly didn't care, as she just let the child run off and walked away before the second incident. To me, that's irresponsible parenting because anything could happen-the kid could get badly hurt, get bitten by a dog, etc. Maybe others won't agree, but that's just my opinion.

I'm sorry if others don't feel that way or if they think I was being mean to the kid and his mother, but I don't like strange kids coming up behind me and my dog and startling us. I do my best to respect other dog owners and parents in the park, and I expect the same courtesy in return. Plus, that kid is going to get bit if he keeps doing that and his mother doesn't watch him. I think it's better to yell at the mother and child to stay away from the dog rather than the kid Gods forbid do that to another dog and wind up getting bit.

Also, Zoe is perfectly friendly. I don't let kids pet her mainly because I am childfree and will be the first to admit that I generally don't like kids. I don't mind friendly, well-behaved kids and can tolerate them in small doses, but in general, my motto is "I leave you alone, you leave me alone" when it comes to children wanting to pet my two dogs. As long as they are respectful towards me, I'm respectful towards them, but if someone pulls like what the mother pulled on Saturday, then you better believe they're going to have one angry Sicilian woman on their hands. Keep an eye on your kids and I'll keep an eye on my dogs and it's all good.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Parents shouldn't control their children as closely as dog owners should. Children need to learn independence and confidence in society if they're going to function. I think we've all met people whose parents kept them too closely controlled. . .it's not good. The two things (proper management of dogs vs proper management of small kids) have nothing to do with each other. There are completely different objectives in raising dogs vs raising kids (besides "keeping them alive", there's really no overlap).
> 
> I don't take any issue with what the OP did at the moment (well, depending what was said in the yelling), but I mean the general concept.





Sarah~ said:


> But it's not the same. Dogs are not the same as kids to most people. Dogs DO need a LOT of supervision because at the end of the day it is a carnivore with teeth and claws and can do some real damage if they want to. Kids need supervision for their own protection but in general dogs are seen as friendly, fuzzy and cuddly animals and I have seen lots of parents having no problems with letting their kids run up to dogs and run wild and crazy at the park. Just like a dog park. You can only be responsible for yourself and your animal, does that make it right for kids and dogs to run up on you, no. But knowing that it's pretty much guaranteed to happen and having a plan helps just like dog vs dog scenarios.
> 
> Yeah she talked to the mom and it happened again, happens all the time, most people would not really care what some person at the park thinks of their parenting skills and would blow them off just like everyone says to do about people who tell us how to train our dogs. At least she tried, but I do think yelling at the kid was overboard.


Yes, kids need to learn.
But that does not mean parents have LESS responsibility to keeping their kids safe, supervised and preventing them from becoming a problem to others.

And you should actually TEACH the kid skills with which to learn before setting them loose to find out the hard way. Such as how to approach a dog. (Even a 2 year old can learn this.)

And if a parent considers that acceptable for the sake of learning, they and others have no cause to speak up when their
child is taught the lesson the hard way: Such as being harshly reprimanded by a stranger forced to do so... Or bit by an animal being responsibly handled when their child runs up and engages it before anyone (specifically the parent) can intervene.

I agree its not quite the same, children are more defenseless and should be prioritized above strange animals. (Though I will not prioritize someone else's child above my dog if they choose to be careless with their duties.) But that is all the more reason MORE should be expected of parents than dog owners. Not less. I'm not saying wrap the child in bubble wrap, I'm saying keep a closer eye on the child and ensure it does not run up and accost / engage strangers when you're not close enough to protect or correct the child as needed. And that it is not everyone else's job to parent, look out for or protect your (general use) kid or tolerate their misbehaving.

What is the same is that the child and animal is the SOLE RESPONSIBILITY OF ITS GUARDIAN. And that they are responsible for ensuring it is safe and does not become a problem to others. And that it is not the responsibility of others to pick up their slack.

Letting the child engage a dog twice after being told not to the first time is over-board. :/

Arya, you did nothing wrong. Its unfortunate you were put in that position. We're child free as well, though I actually do like children. My nephew (age 4) is over regularly to help with animal-related chores and play with the animals. But this is nonsense. :/

I swear, this thread has given me the mind to call up my sister, cousins and friends and tell them what outstanding, diligent parents they are and how much I appreciate them. :/


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Gumiho said:


> If this situation were reversed. And she were enjoying an evening with her child (or even still her dog), and someone had a rowdy, but harmless, loose puppy running at her kid. And the first time she told the dog owner it makes her child/dog nervous, to watch their puppy more closely and not let it bother people. And then the dog accosted her and her child/dog AGAIN and she yelled at it to stop it from engaging her and her child/dog long enough for the owner to come up, brush it off as harmless and again make light of their responsibilities toward the puppy...
> 
> Many posters making excuses here would agree the owner was irresponsible to let their dog run loose and pestering / scaring others since they had no control and were too far off to intervene themselves. And no one would blame her for raising her voice to stop the dog from engaging her and the child/animal she is guardian of.


Of course it probably would show a lack of responsibility on the part of the dog owner (although those of us who have owned an escape artist dog may empathize). That doesn't mean that the parent in your reversed scenario ought to respond by flipping out. Kids need to be taught to behave around dogs just as dogs need to be taught to behave around people, and a pup running loose (but not behaving aggressively) is a good chance to teach the kid to calmly and non-confrontationally stand their ground with a loose dog. If the parent went to town on the dog and the dog owner, then it would be modeling a fearful or aggressive reaction, which is not healthy for future dog-human interactions. 

Would irritation be justified? Of course. But we don't act out in response to every emotion we feel.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I will never take back or regret the Petsmart incident ,, older kids not toddlers running up and down the isle of Petsmart yelling and hollering , running up to dogs and petting them as if the owners didn't exist... Standing in line with my notorious Darien GSD minding his own business who was in love with the tiny breed dog the owners in front of me were holding as the 3 of us were talking together .. Seen the kids running down the building and and they had just stopped at the next checkout line to stoop down to molest someone else's dog who tolerated it but quiet startled at the approach on them, when they looked up and yelled big dog yaaaaaah as they ran towards us.. Darien lunged towards them and did ballistic off his front feet.. The kids stopped turned around and started to cry actually loud bawl.. for the first time their parents came running up to where their kids were to get them... How dare my dog lol .. almost everyone in the store had a grin on their face for the stop of the terror.... If the Parents don't teach their kids, then someone or something else will... bottom line...


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

parus said:


> Of course it probably would show a lack of responsibility on the part of the dog owner (although those of us who have owned an escape artist dog may empathize). That doesn't mean that the parent in your reversed scenario ought to respond by flipping out. Kids need to be taught to behave around dogs just as dogs need to be taught to behave around people, and a pup running loose (but not behaving aggressively) is a good chance to teach the kid to calmly and non-confrontationally stand their ground with a loose dog. If the parent went to town on the dog and the dog owner, then it would be modeling a fearful or aggressive reaction, which is not healthy for future dog-human interactions.
> 
> Would irritation be justified? Of course. But we don't act out in response to every emotion we feel.


I actually agree with you entirely. But it would also be agreed that the one actually at fault was the dog owner. And that the parent may have reason to freak out (they or the child may have an irrational fear of dogs perhaps, maybe even brought on by a prior attack from a loose dog). 

The point being, that its unreasonable to point the finger at the OP and heckle her for taking issue with an unreasonable predicament she was put in and how she responded to it, even if the response wasn't ideal. It isn't as though she assaulted the child. And instead, all manner of excuses are made for the mother and she is reprimanded for taking issue with an irresponsible mother and the risks she allows her child to take at the expense of strangers?


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> I will never take back or regret the Petsmart incident ,, older kids not toddlers running up and down the isle of Petsmart yelling and hollering , running up to dogs and petting them as if the owners didn't exist... Standing in line with my notorious Darien GSD minding his own business who was in love with the tiny breed dog the owners in front of me were holding as the 3 of us were talking together .. Seen the kids running down the building and and they had just stopped at the next checkout line to stoop down to molest someone else's dog who tolerated it but quiet startled at the approach on them, when they looked up and yelled big dog yaaaaaah as they ran towards us.. Darien lunged towards them and did ballistic off his front feet.. The kids stopped turned around and started to cry actually loud bawl.. for the first time their parents came running up to where their kids were to get them... How dare my dog lol .. almost everyone in the store had a grin on their face for the stop of the terror.... *If the Parents don't teach their kids, then someone or something else will... bottom line...*


This. Exactly This.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> Yelling NO STAY AWAY when the kid hasn't even reached the dog doesn't make your dog look very good and probably doesn't send your dog a good message about kids. "Oh, mom is angry/scared and yelling at that thing, it must be something bad". If they pop out of nowhere and startle you both, that's one thing, I yell when I'm startled but if you see them coming just block,* say no*, then talk to the parents.


LOL you make it sound like people scream like banshees in a straight-up panic. This is pretty much how I start... and then when they ignore me and keep coming, I yell I SAID NO DON'T TOUCH HIM before they actually reach us. Then usually they listen. (Usually.) 

And I said "when" instead of "if" deliberately because it's happened that way pretty much every time.


Also, I'm way too old to much care about whether I look good or not because I yelled at someone's unruly kid.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Gumiho said:


> I actually agree with you entirely. But it would also be agreed that the one actually at fault was the dog owner.


Well, there may or may not be actual negligence or ignorance involved. Those of us who have had a particularly slippery dog or kid (I had thought I was awesome at toddler-minding, but I had one that turned into a greased pig at age two, which made me karmically regret all the judgments I'd ever laid upon some stranger with an unruly runabout child) have found out the hard way that sometimes you do all the "right" things and the dog or kid still gets out of hand. Short of never taking the kid out in public you just have to learn to roll with it and minimize risks as much as possible. Or maybe this parent is totally dumb and/or irresponsible. No way to tell from the story, really. 



> And that the parent may have reason to freak out (they or the child may have an irrational fear of dogs perhaps, maybe even brought on by a prior attack from a loose dog).
> 
> The point being, that its unreasonable to point the finger at the OP and heckle her for taking issue with an unreasonable predicament she was put in and how she responded to it, even if the response wasn't ideal. It isn't as though she assaulted the child. And instead, all manner of excuses are made for the mother and she is reprimanded for taking issue with an irresponsible mother and the risks she allows her child to take at the expense of strangers?


Might come down to cultural differences but I personally consider a verbal assault to be a type of assault. But the bottom line is, I cannot control other pet owners, or other parents. I can only control myself, and take the best management I can of kids and animals in my care, and react as well as I can to situations I encounter. There are always going to be difficult people and idiots around. That doesn't give me free license to behave according to my first impulse.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yelling NO STAY AWAY FROM ME at someone encroaching on your space is verbal assault?

Christ, I'm old. :/


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I agree this thread has gotten out of hand.

It is kind of funny to me, though. I can see some girl yelling, "THIS IS MY RESCUE DOG I'M WORKING WITH MY RESCUE DOG WHY CAN'T YOU SEE THIS IS A RESCUE DOG AND IT NEEDS WORK AND YOU ARE BOTHERING ME!!!!" And the dog cowering because of the owner freaking out, not the situation itself. 

Get a grip. You're out in public. With other humans. 

Treat people the way you would want to be treated.

Save being self righteous for something worth getting upset over.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

It amuses me that people seem to think that anyone who says they would yell at a rude little kid to stay away from them can apparently do so while in a rabid, feral, frothy rage. It is possible to yell without making a gigantic scene that will scare a dog, scare a child, disrupt an entire park or committing verbal assault, lol. 

Get a grip and save the self-righteousness, indeed. 



ETA: Or maybe I have a very different definition of "yelling" than everyone else.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I really don't think a 2 year old is capable of being rude...


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I really don't think a 2 year old is capable of being rude...


You've never met my little sister


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> You've never met my little sister


I mean, doing things that would generally be considered rude, sure. But to me actually -being- rude implies that they know better and are choosing not to do what they know they're supposed to just to spite you.

To me it's similar to a puppy chewing up your shoes. They're not trying to exact their hatred on you or control the house, they're being a puppy. A 2 year old picking their nose at you isn't rude, it's them being a 2 year old. Prevent/redirect and carry on...


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I mean, doing things that would generally be considered rude, sure. But to me actually *-being- rude implies that they know better and are choosing not to do what they know they're supposed to just to spite you.*


That pretty much describes her. lmao This child _really_ knows how to push buttons and continues to test us every day. lol


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> That pretty much describes her. lmao This child _really_ knows how to push buttons and continues to test us every day. lol


I remember feeling the same way about my brother when he was that age, lol!


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> I mean, doing things that would generally be considered rude, sure. But to me actually -being- rude implies that they know better and are choosing not to do what they know they're supposed to just to spite you.
> 
> To me it's similar to a puppy chewing up your shoes. They're not trying to exact their hatred on you or control the house, they're being a puppy. A 2 year old picking their nose at you isn't rude, it's them being a 2 year old. Prevent/redirect and carry on...


I think what amuses me is people who use 100% positive discipline with their dogs, don't you dare even think of yelling at/speaking to my puppy with that tone of voice, are so nasty about children. It is perfectly ok to yell at a toddler but not a dog. I'm on a parenting board and it is the exact opposite, people are bothered by dogs and I think it is this attitude that causes it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL, we've reached the point in the thread where we argue semantics. Let's just replace "rude" with "rude behavior" or "out of control," then, is that ok? 

This thread amuses me SO much. I love it. Where is that macro of the kitten hugging a ball of yarn when you need it?


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, dog people who think it is fine to yell at children because they "don't particularly like them/only tolerate them" is SO funny! Love it!!


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I remember feeling the same way about my brother when he was that age, lol!


Nah, my biological siblings were, in hindsight, a pain in the butt... But this kid (she's adopted) is something else, man. When my bio. siblings got reprimanded (including myself), we listened and did not do the offending behaviour again. The adopted sister though (and we raised her from birth) is just... a handful and a half. She will smirk at you and do EXACTLY what you yelled at her for again. Just for a reaction. 

She would be the child being yelled at by a stranger for running at them/their dogs. And I wouldn't care one bit if it taught her a lesson.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Remaru said:


> I think what amuses me is people who use 100% positive discipline with their dogs, don't you dare even think of yelling at/speaking to my puppy with that tone of voice, are so nasty about children. It is perfectly ok to yell at a toddler but not a dog. I'm on a parenting board and it is the exact opposite, people are bothered by dogs and I think it is this attitude that causes it.


Eh, I think most people would say it was okay to yell at someone's dog if they felt they were being put in a potentially dangerous situation and needed the dog to STOP NOW.

I'm probably an anomaly in that I don't yell... ever. Regardless of how pissed/startled I am or the situation. My reaction is to not say anything and just do physically what needs to be done to resolve the situation. (move the dog, move myself, etc and soforth)


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> It amuses me that people seem to think that anyone who says they would yell at a rude little kid to stay away from them can apparently do so while in a rabid, feral, frothy rage. It is possible to yell without making a gigantic scene that will scare a dog, scare a child, disrupt an entire park or committing verbal assault, lol.
> 
> Get a grip and save the self-righteousness, indeed.
> 
> ...


I don't see where anyone claimed the OP was yelling like a wild rabid animal and I do think it's possible for someone's subtle demeanor and tone or volume to impact a dog's feelings towards the situation. It doesn't have to be a huge scene that disrupts the whole park for the dog to pick up on the frustration or anger their person is expressing even in a subtle manner. Enough situations like this could potentially shape a dog's experience with children. 

Again, I don't feel that I can truly judge the situation because I believe as readers of the story we're all envisioning our own versions of what happened. I just figured I'd try to make the point that some dogs can be sensitive to the emotions of their owners and the person doesn't have to be reacting at a psychotic level for the dog to learn, tiny humans=bad.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Maybe I was raised differently, but I don't understand what the big deal about yelling at the kid is. I personally wouldn't have because I like when kids approach my dog, if they're friendly, because she doesn't interact with kids often and loves them. However, I hardly think this kid is going to be scarred for life at someone raising their voice.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

d_ray said:


> Maybe I was raised differently, but I don't understand what the big deal about yelling at the kid is. I personally wouldn't have because I like when kids approach my dog, if they're friendly, because she doesn't interact with kids often and loves them. However, I hardly think this kid is going to be scarred for life at someone raising their voice.


Everyone is different. If a stranger yelled at me as a child, I would have probably crapped my pants and cried. lol I DO NOT like when people I do not know yell at me. I would probably cry now if someone yelled at me. lmao


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Everyone is different. If a stranger yelled at me as a child, I would have probably crapped my pants and cried. lol I DO NOT like when people I do not know yell at me. I would probably cry now if someone yelled at me. lmao


LOL, note to self: never yell at Little Wise Owl. I would probably react a lot differently now, but at that age, he probably forgot about it 2 seconds later. I'm not saying it's right to yell at kids, I'm just saying, I don't think he is going to need therapy for life over it. In my opinion, it's better to maybe teach the kid than for the kid to potentially get bitten. The lesser of two evils so to speak.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

parus said:


> Heh.
> 
> With dogs, positive, encouraging methods only!
> With kids...eh, scare the heck out of the little monsters, who cares.


I know, right?

And since when did it become acceptable to be so dang egotistical? "Me and mine come before *everyone else* including babies!" Both people had a right to use the park and its pretty much a fact of city life that people in parks often interact out of necessity. In a crowded space its neither right, wrong or indifferent... Just reality. Sure, the mom should have been supervising better, but screaming at a toddler is just rude and unhelpful. Not to mention it goes a *long* ways to teaching your dog kids are dangerous.

If you need a place of complete solitude to train (and some do) then you need to take it upon yourself to find one. Until then there will be occasional kids, dogs and people you come in contact with, and they're all *at least* as important as your dog. Can't believe that even needs saying.

EDIT: For what its worth I feel the same about people who think they should *never* have to encounter dogs in public places. They've got a right to be there and its just a part of sharing the neighbourhood.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

d_ray said:


> LOL, note to self: never yell at Little Wise Owl. I would probably react a lot differently now, but at that age, he probably forgot about it 2 seconds later. I'm not saying it's right to yell at kids, I'm just saying, I don't think he is going to need therapy for life over it. In my opinion, it's better to maybe teach the kid than for the kid to potentially get bitten. The lesser of two evils so to speak.


I agree I don't think in the grand scheme of things the yelling is a huge deal. I think pinksand is correct, not having been there we all see this from our own perspective in how we think it went down/how we perceive things. For me it was the huge overreaction that if a child is running around a public park the child is not being properly supervised and then the ensuing comparisons of controlling a child like you control a puppy when frankly they just aren't the same. It is quite possible that this particular child was not properly supervised but the idea that a child running around a park needs to be essentially leashed to his/her parent is troubling to me. Also the negativity towards children coming from some of the posters was a bit off putting, I get them same vibe on parenting sites about dogs and it is problematic for me. I feel like I don't fit in anywhere because I love dogs but I am also a parent. I think some people seem to forget that they were once children and the whole "good old days" thing always rubs me the wrong way.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Eenypup said:


> Yes, dog people who think it is fine to yell at children because they "don't particularly like them/only tolerate them" is SO funny! Love it!!


There is SO much projection and SO many assumptions getting flung around in this thread that it actually is really funny.

For example, when I read some of these affronted responses I'm imagining what people THINK I look/sound like when I've resorted to yelling at someone else's out of control kid (Not rude! The kid who reached AROUND my body blocking and ignored my initial request not to pet my dog definitely was NOT acting rude) and it must be such a ridiculous caricature of what actually happens that I can't help but laugh. I wonder how many extra arms I have, how pointy my teeth are, and whether I can shoot lasers from my eyes? I WISH.

I think people are overreacting to the word "yelling," or maybe what I consider yelling is wayyyyy off the norm. Because... poor little snowflakes, who can't handle a raised voice and a stern tone without feeling assaulted... really? lol


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Eenypup said:


> Yes, dog people who think it is fine to yell at children because they "don't particularly like them/only tolerate them" is SO funny! Love it!!


About as funny as parents who think its cute to watch their children harass strangers and strange dogs and that everyone else should just get over it because its cute and they're too tired and can't be bothered to manage their own kids? 

Adorable.

(OMG... (*some*) Parents have small dog syndrome! lol )


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also, I'd consider the moment crisis management rather than training, so I don't think those comparisons apply. Just like I wouldn't "wave a cookie in my dog's face" if he were running into the street.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Yep, a training opportunity would need controlled variables for a positive outcome. A polite child asking to pet is a great training opportunity. An unruly child whose parent has no control over them and is running head on at your dog... Is not a training opportunity. Its a "Bring this under control immediately before something happens" moment.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Remaru said:


> I agree I don't think in the grand scheme of things the yelling is a huge deal. I think pinksand is correct, not having been there we all see this from our own perspective in how we think it went down/how we perceive things.


Agreed. And everyone has a different perception of "yelling". I would think nothing of being firm and raising my voice, but that may be perceived as yelling to others.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

sassafras said:


> There is SO much projection and SO many assumptions getting flung around in this thread that it actually is really funny.
> 
> For example, when I read some of these affronted responses I'm imagining what people THINK I look/sound like when I've resorted to yelling at someone else's out of control kid (Not rude! The kid who reached AROUND my body blocking and ignored my initial request not to pet my dog definitely was NOT acting rude) and it must be such a ridiculous caricature of what actually happens that I can't help but laugh. I wonder how many extra arms I have, how pointy my teeth are, and whether I can shoot lasers from my eyes? I WISH.
> 
> I think people are overreacting to the word "yelling," or maybe what I consider yelling is wayyyyy off the norm. Because... poor little snowflakes, who can't handle a raised voice and a stern tone without feeling assaulted... really? lol


 If you go back and read the actual words in my post, what I actually said was that I consider verbal assault to be a form of violence. I'm sure most people have, in their lives, experienced a verbal altercation that left them just as shaken as a punch in the gut would have - no "poor little snowflakes" required. But obviously not every shout is a verbal assault. That said, if you are routinely shouting at children in public places, you have to ask yourself who the one constant person in all these negative interactions is.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

parus said:


> If you go back and read the actual words in my post, what I actually said was that I consider verbal assault to be a form of violence. I'm sure most people have, in their lives, experienced a verbal altercation that left them just as shaken as a punch in the gut would have - no "poor little snowflakes" required. But obviously not every shout is a verbal assault. That said, if you are routinely shouting at children in public places, you have to ask yourself who the one constant person in all these negative interactions is.



You should go read your own post, because what you actually typed was that you consider verbal assault a form of assault. 

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I routinely shout at children in public places? Oh wait, yes I do... from your assumptions lol. 



Maybe I should try to take over the world with my stern "yelling" voice, because apparently it has a LOT more power than I thought it did.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Gumiho said:


> An unruly child whose parent has no control over them and is running head on at your dog... Is not a training opportunity. Its a "Bring this under control immediately before something happens" moment.


But it is a learning experience for the dog. They're still going to take a lesson in how to react to children. OP has said her dog is friendly and loves kids, that there was no danger (perhaps not the case for other management stories here). There was no real danger to manage in this case and definitely no need for "seething", yelling or "going off" on the kid or mother. Maybe calm body blocking. TBH sounds a bit like OP was mostly angry *for herself* having been interrupted by kids she doesn't like.

In any event it all seems a bit overblown to me. Kids run around in parks, they aren't (and shouldn't be leashed to parents). If there is no danger I can't even imagine how anger is appropriate or why it would even pop up.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

What is this thread even about anymore...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Little Wise Owl said:


> What is this thread even about anymore...


Shaming anyone who has ever raised their voice at a child!!!


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

aiw said:


> I know, right?
> 
> And since when did it become acceptable to be so dang egotistical? "Me and mine come before *everyone else* including babies!" Both people had a right to use the park and its pretty much a fact of city life that people in parks often interact out of necessity. In a crowded space its neither right, wrong or indifferent... Just reality. Sure, the mom should have been supervising better, but screaming at a toddler is just rude and unhelpful. Not to mention it goes a *long* ways to teaching your dog kids are dangerous.
> 
> ...


I was going to stay out of this but since you basically called me out with the "my own" comment I'll break it down for you. I've taken enough philosophy classes to know that people like to break things down into black and white. So, if it makes more sense you can just refer to me as an egoist rather than an altruist, that's fine by me.

It's an absolute fact that pretty much everyone on this planet cares about themselves first and foremost. 

So, you want to judge, then you can be that person that will risk your life to save a stranger and leave your family with the depression and emotional anguish of your loss and donate all your extra money to starving children in Africa. Otherwise, don't judge 

ETA: Also, it comes down to love. I love my dog, I don't love random strangers and children. So yes, my dog comes first. That makes me an egotistical a-hole then so be it


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

aiw said:


> But it is a learning experience for the dog. They're still going to take a lesson in how to react to children. OP has said her dog is friendly and loves kids, that there was no danger (perhaps not the case for other management stories here). There was no real danger to manage in this case and definitely no need for "seething", yelling or "going off" on the kid or mother. Maybe calm body blocking. TBH sounds a bit like OP was mostly angry *for herself* having been interrupted by kids she doesn't like.
> 
> In any event it all seems a bit overblown to me. Kids run around in parks, they aren't (and shouldn't be leashed to parents). If there is no danger I can't even imagine how anger is appropriate or why it would even pop up.


And a firm raised voice isn't going to scar the dog or the child. Or ruin the dog's training. Becoming jumpy around kids from being repeatedly startled and put off by rude approaches, however, might.

I'm not saying kids should be leashed (well, maybe in some cases). I am saying the 2 year old should never have been so far away from the parent as to force a stranger to take action because the mother wasn't diligent and close enough to intervene and control / protect her own child.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I don't even like children, and I wouldn't have yelled at a two year old. So don't go painting all children dislikers with the same brush. 

Personally, I think this would have been an awesome way to educate mom and kid since the kid wasn't even in any immediate danger. With past child run-ins, I've done something like this: I would have got down to the kid (whether it could really understand or not, moreso for the mom) and say something like "you always ask if you can pet a doggy before coming up to a dog you don't know! Not all doggies are very nice and can bite, but a lot are nice. You still have to ask though, because that's the safe thing to do! Animals can bite, even though they look cute!" Then if said dog was friendly, I would have them ask if they could pet said dog, or if not, say sorry but this dog is not friendly (or just don't want any interaction I guess).

I don't think yelling helped mom or kid learn anything but feelings of resentment. Heat of the moment though, I get it. I see both sides.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I don't even like children, and I wouldn't have yelled at a two year old. So don't go painting all children dislikers with the same brush.
> 
> Personally, I think this would have been an awesome way to educate mom and kid since the kid wasn't even in any immediate danger. With past child run-ins, I've done something like this: I would have got down to the kid (whether it could really understand or not, moreso for the mom) and say something like "you always ask if you can pet a doggy before coming up to a dog you don't know! Not all doggies are very nice and can bite, but a lot are nice. You still have to ask though, because that's the safe thing to do! Animals can bite, even though they look cute!" Then if said dog was friendly, I would have them ask if they could pet said dog, or if not, say sorry but this dog is not friendly (or just don't want any interaction I guess).
> 
> I don't think yelling helped mom or kid learn anything but feelings of resentment. Heat of the moment though, I get it. I see both sides.


This! This! This!

Honestly, I have ZERO patience for any child who is not my own. I'm not even exaggerating. BUT, I do feel like if I'm taking the "risk" of bringing my dog somewhere knowing that there can and more than likely will be children running around, it is part of my responsibility to do some educating in the event something like this happens. I mean, if we're at a dog exclusive park, obviously all bets are off, but a park that welcomes children and dogs? Come on. 

I'm not taking up for the parent though. I mean, without being there, we can only assume she wasn't paying the full attention she should have been. Although let's be real, a 2 year old can take off within the blink of an eye and it does sound like the mom was right behind the kid.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

Arya of House Stark said:


> Also, Zoe is perfectly friendly. I don't let kids pet her mainly because I am childfree and will be the first to admit that I generally don't like kids





sassafras said:


> Also, I'd consider the moment crisis management rather than training, so I don't think those comparisons apply. Just like I wouldn't "wave a cookie in my dog's face" if he were running into the street.


Again with perspective... I just didn't read this and think, "crisis situation." The situation certainly isn't ideal for someone who doesn't want to be forced to interact with a child (unruly or not). My impression was that the OP felt interrupted and felt it wasn't handled appropriately by the parent. Our tolerance for these situations varies from person to person and probably also from day to day. The tolerance in this situation may have been much higher for someone with kids or for those who feel that socializing with children is a priority (or necessary evil?). No, this kid doesn't sound like the most ideal place to start with socializing our dogs with children, but the world around us is most often far from ideal. I think the best we can do is try to understand where our own thoughts are coming from, what has influenced us, and try to be open to what others may be experiencing or how they are viewing the situation. It's just always easier to make quick judgments. Reality is often much more gray than black and white.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I've taken enough philosophy classes to know that people like to break things down into black and white.


That's what you got out of philosophy class? Seems like a strange and unnecessary dig (at me? yourself?) but okay....



> So, if it makes more sense you can just refer to me as an egoist rather than an altruist, that's fine by me.
> 
> It's an absolute fact that pretty much everyone on this planet cares about themselves first and foremost.
> 
> ...


Look, I'm not a martyr and won't pretend to be one, but you don't have to *die* for a stranger to acknowledge that they are at least as important as your dog and to attempt to act in accordance with the belief in everyday life. I mean... can you imagine? "I won't move over on the sidewalk for you! I'm no martyr!" Its just silly and totally counter to common courtesy - no high minded philosophy needed. So no, I don't find a proudly egotistical stance to be admirable (or even sustainable) in daily life.

This has ranged pretty far from the OP though so we can just agree to disagree.



> I am saying the 2 year old should never have been so far away from the parent as to force a stranger to take action because the mother wasn't diligent and close enough to intervene and control / protect her own child.


In a perfect world...


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm looking at all of this, reading through it, and I've come to my own conclusion. 
The OP perhaps should have been keeping a closer eye out and noticed the toddler sooner. (Dog was on leash, not aggressive, no foul there!)
The mom should have been keeping a closer eye out and noticed her toddler running off sooner (and sure, they are fast, but adults can run faster than a toddler). 
Fact is, we're all human, there were lapses in attention, it happens, and nothing bad came of it, no maiming, no maulings. There was yelling...which, depending on the words and tone, not a huge deal (especially if there was distance involved...you have to raise your voice to be heard sometimes). Again, things happen. 

My only problem with the entire issue, and I mentioned it before, is the difference in expectations that some people have between dog owners and parents. Parents are supposed to (at least try really hard) to protect their kids from nasty stuff in the world. Dog owners are expected to protect their dogs from the nasty stuff in the world AND the world from their dog (even when the dog isn't dangerous). A toddler runs off...."ooh pesky toddlers", a dog runs off "irresponsible owners". I think the solid black and white judgements have to be relaxed a little on both sides, and admission of "we're human" has to be allowed sometimes. Though, just as a person who isn't a child lover, please parents, protect me from your toddlers, I like toddlers running up to me less than I like strange friendly dogs running up to me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Everyone is different. If a stranger yelled at me as a child, I would have probably crapped my pants and cried. lol I DO NOT like when people I do not know yell at me. I would probably cry now if someone yelled at me. lmao


 Haha, yeah, me too. But I don't think I was well-socialized as a child and I think my mom (due to the people she was associating with) put too much emphasis on having "an obedient child" rather than raising "an adult who won't melt into a pile of goo if her boss looks at her funny" :/. So I can't say if it was just my personality or due to upbringing or what. But if an adult had even spoken to me at that age, I would have flat-out died. And I'd remember it now too . I remember a lot of my young childhood. . .I get the feeling most people don't. I don't have kids, I won't ever have kids, but dang, I remember when I was a kid and how things affected me. I prefer to see a toddler with a little sass to them. . .maybe they'll grow up more confident and secure.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, there should be a different level of expectation for dog owners vs parents. Dogs are not kids. Kids are not dogs. A dog running off leash has a very real danger of biting someone, accidentally or not, therefore dogs are potentially dangerous. Kids are not capable of actually hurting someone. So yes, a person who has their child within eyesight at a park and knows he/she is not near a road or something like that is not always being irresponsible. I realize many of you do not like children, but people do not like dogs because they can BITE them. People not liking children is different, you're just annoyed or bothered by them. A child running up to a person does not pose any threat.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Wow, this has turned in to an incredibly long thread. 

I mean.....the OP could have just moved to another part of the park if the kiddo was bothering them by doing what kids do at a park (ie running around, etc). When I take my dogs to a human park, I'm not surprised if a 2 year old runs over to them. Shrug. Because a two year old is a baby. And babies don't yet typically know to say, "can I pet your dog?"


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

pinksand said:


> Again with perspective... I just didn't read this and think, "crisis situation." The situation certainly isn't ideal for someone who doesn't want to be forced to interact with a child (unruly or not). My impression was that the OP felt interrupted and felt it wasn't handled appropriately by the parent. Our tolerance for these situations varies from person to person and probably also from day to day. The tolerance in this situation may have been much higher for someone with kids or for those who feel that socializing with children is a priority (or necessary evil?). No, this kid doesn't sound like the most ideal place to start with socializing our dogs with children, but the world around us is most often far from ideal. I think the best we can do is try to understand where our own thoughts are coming from, what has influenced us, and try to be open to what others may be experiencing or how they are viewing the situation. It's just always easier to make quick judgments. Reality is often much more gray than black and white.


I didn't mean it actually was a crisis, I meant that comparing it to positive reinforcement training wasn't valid because it wasn't a training moment. It was a management moment.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

aiw said:


> That's what you got out of philosophy class? Seems like a strange and unnecessary dig (at me? yourself?) but okay....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't even get the first comment, I didn't say that's all I got out of it and if you have ever taken any you would know that's how it it. Egoism vs altruism. Utilitarianism vs deontology. Need I go on? You kind of just pick a side and it's very rigid thinking. Idk, obviously you don't know what I'm talking about so you don't get the point. 

The point is nothing is really that black and white. I mean, there are some people that are really strict in their thinking, like this really successful business woman that's a strict egoist and has a ton a money because of it or the guy that wrote that paper about the guy choosing his car over a small child about to be hit by a train as being the same thing as a person buying in excess rather than giving all your extra money to starving children in other countries. (Forget names, learned about them a few semesters ago). Most people really aren't that one sided. So, you called be egotistical because my personal loved ones come first and that's ridiculous. That's rational, natural, completely normal. Actually, I think there's something seriously wrong with people that wouldn't choose their loved ones over a strange person. It's just abnormal and completely against human nature. Regardless, just because I would chose the people, or in this case my dog, doesn't mean I don't care about other people at all. Just because I care MORE about something doesn't mean I don't care about other things AT ALL. 

That's not egotistical, that's normal. Protecting something you love at the expense of someone else, like scaring a small child so your dog doesn't end up getting frightened, biting the child, and the PTS is NORMAL. Not caring more about an animal or person that is part of your every day life compared to some random stranger you don't even no (*know) isn't natural and if that's the case for you then that's pretty sad.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also, I never said I didn't like children.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

sassafras said:


> I didn't mean it actually was a crisis, I meant that comparing it to positive reinforcement training wasn't valid because it wasn't a training moment. It was a management moment.


My dog jumping and lunging at joggers isn't a "training moment" by that theory either but arguably there are better ways to handle his leash reactivity (he isn't actually aggressive just really really excited) than yelling at him. This comparison only works if the toddler is running into a street or possibly towards a river/completely unleashed and out of control dog (though I don't know how yelling would help then as the dog is also not able to be controlled) not towards a dog on a leash perfectly under control by a person.

ETA: I'm just saying in this situation I don't think yelling is helpful, I wouldn't yell at a toddler. A two year old is not getting anything from being yelled at and it could be detrimental to both the child and the dog. In some of the other situations mentioned, whatever. I also find it ironic that people think yelling at kids is funny/acceptable when they wouldn't want anyone yelling at their dogs, that was all I was saying. Sometimes it may be necessary to raise your voice, particularly with older children who just are not getting the point or are in situations they shouldn't be in. However just yelling because you are irritated at a small child, not really the right situation for it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Remaru said:


> My dog jumping and lunging at joggers isn't a "training moment" by that theory either but arguably there are better ways to handle his leash reactivity (he isn't actually aggressive just really really excited) than yelling at him. This comparison only works if the toddler is running into a street or possibly towards a river/completely unleashed and out of control dog (though I don't know how yelling would help then as the dog is also not able to be controlled) not towards a dog on a leash perfectly under control by a person.


Yes, and the better way to handle it is to work on training and proofing at a distance from joggers, and not let him close enough to jump on them if he can't handle it yet. But if you find yourself in a situation where he IS jumping, you manage it how you need to manage it. That might be a leash pull, moving away quickly, or - gasp! - a verbal correction, depending on what works with your dog. 

I'm not sure why people are SO hung up on what is essentially a verbal correction for a child doing something you don't want them to do. Again, I think it must be that in people's imagination I shapechange into a giant screeching shadow creature with ten foot long claws howling and terrorizing every child who so much as glances my way rather than the reality.


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

Remaru said:


> I agree I don't think in the grand scheme of things the yelling is a huge deal. I think pinksand is correct, not having been there we all see this from our own perspective in how we think it went down/how we perceive things. For me it was the huge overreaction that if a child is running around a public park the child is not being properly supervised and then the ensuing comparisons of controlling a child like you control a puppy when frankly they just aren't the same. It is quite possible that this particular child was not properly supervised but the idea that a child running around a park needs to be essentially leashed to his/her parent is troubling to me. Also the negativity towards children coming from some of the posters was a bit off putting, I get them same vibe on parenting sites about dogs and it is problematic for me. I feel like I don't fit in anywhere because I love dogs but I am also a parent. I think some people seem to forget that they were once children and the whole "good old days" thing always rubs me the wrong way.


I know that feeling. I also love kids, dogs and cats. I saw someone post here that they hate cat people and it made me feel bad since I consider myself a cat-lover. I'm sure people on cat forums are saying they hate dog-lovers too, which I also consider myself to be. I think everyone would get along better and be happier if we focused on what we liked instead of the things we didn't. 
*also just because you personally don't like something doesn't mean you have the right to disrespect it or people that do.*




aiw said:


> I know, right?
> And since when did it become acceptable to be so dang egotistical? "Me and mine come before *everyone else* including babies!" Both people had a right to use the park and its pretty much a fact of city life that people in parks often interact out of necessity. In a crowded space its neither right, wrong or indifferent... Just reality. Sure, the mom should have been supervising better, but screaming at a toddler is just rude and unhelpful. Not to mention it goes a *long* ways to teaching your dog kids are dangerous.
> If you need a place of complete solitude to train (and some do) then you need to take it upon yourself to find one.  Until then there will be occasional kids, dogs and people you come in contact with, and they're all *at least* as important as your dog. Can't believe that even needs saying.
> EDIT: For what its worth I feel the same about people who think they should *never* have to encounter dogs in public places. They've got a right to be there and its just a part of sharing the neighbourhood.


When I was a child I was attacked by a large dog pretty badly. It required a lot of stitches. Turns out it had sudden-rage syndrome and was put down after that attack.
Needless to say I was not a fan of dogs after that (which I eventually grew out of as I bonded with our GSDs), but I would never yell at or be mean to an owner when their large dog would charge me and bump me in a public place.
They'd apologize and I'd just politely say, "don't worry about it." 
There's never a need to yell, everything can be handled in a respectful manner.

You're right about the self-centered thought. I never think, "wow that really bugged me and interrupted my day!!!!!!" I think, "well they're trying their best and dogs/children are a handful and these things happen."
I didn't know being thoughtful and sympathetic to others was so rare.



aiw said:


> That's what you got out of philosophy class? Seems like a strange and unnecessary dig (at me? yourself?) but okay....


In philosophy class we learned about fallacies of logic. 
Attacking someone is called an Ad hominem. 



Willowy said:


> Haha, yeah, me too. But I don't think I was well-socialized as a child and I think my mom (due to the people she was associating with) put too much emphasis on having "an obedient child" rather than raising "an adult who won't melt into a pile of goo if her boss looks at her funny" :/. So I can't say if it was just my personality or due to upbringing or what. But if an adult had even spoken to me at that age, I would have flat-out died. And I'd remember it now too . I remember a lot of my young childhood. . .I get the feeling most people don't. I don't have kids, I won't ever have kids, but dang, I remember when I was a kid and how things affected me. I prefer to see a toddler with a little sass to them. . .maybe they'll grow up more confident and secure.


My dad was very depressed during my entire childhood due to the loss of my mother. I love him as a person, but this made him a lack luster father and messed up my sister and I's social skills immensely. I could not speak to anyone as a child, and I couldn't even buy clothing for myself as a preteen because I was too afraid to interact with the cashier. 
I remember every moment of my childhood. And if someone yelled at me for approaching their dog, it would have made me cry and withdrawal as a person even more.
"*I prefer to see a toddler with a little sass to them. . .maybe they'll grow up more confident and secure.*" <- I feel the exact same way.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

sassafras said:


> Yes, and the better way to handle it is to work on training and proofing at a distance from joggers, and not let him close enough to jump on them if he can't handle it yet. But if you find yourself in a situation where he IS jumping, you manage it how you need to manage it. That might be a leash pull, moving away quickly, or - gasp! - a verbal correction, depending on what works with your dog.
> 
> I'm not sure why people are SO hung up on what is essentially a verbal correction for a child doing something you don't want them to do. Again, I think it must be that in people's imagination I shapechange into a giant screeching shadow creature with ten foot long claws howling and terrorizing every child who so much as glances my way rather than the reality.


It is fine to say that you are not one of the 100% positive trainers then  no worries. It isn't even about the verbal correction so much as the attitude. Again, perception is everything. She didn't verbally correct a child because of a dangerous situation, she yelled at a toddler because she was annoyed and she doesn't like kids. She said in several posts she doesn't even like well behaved children near her. Your experiences are different and I am not commenting at all on any of the times you may have had to raise your voice to a child when he/she would not leave you or your dog alone. Yes the tone of several of the posters in this thread bothers me, the extent of the negativity towards children and the idea that children should be leashed like dogs or you are a bad parent is troubling. I don't think anyone would want to live in a world with children who actually grew up raised that way.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

Remaru said:


> It is fine to say that you are not one of the 100% positive trainers then  no worries. It isn't even about the verbal correction so much as the attitude. Again, perception is everything. She didn't verbally correct a child because of a dangerous situation, she yelled at a toddler because she was annoyed and she doesn't like kids. She said in several posts she doesn't even like well behaved children near her. Your experiences are different and I am not commenting at all on any of the times you may have had to raise your voice to a child when he/she would not leave you or your dog alone. Yes the tone of several of the posters in this thread bothers me, the extent of the negativity towards children and the idea that children should be leashed like dogs or you are a bad parent is troubling. I don't think anyone would want to live in a world with children who actually grew up raised that way.


I agree with you 100%, well said.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I don't even get the first comment, I didn't say that's all I got out of it and if you have ever taken any you would know that's how it it. Egoism vs altruism. Utilitarianism vs deontology. Need I go on? You kind of just pick a side and it's very rigid thinking. Idk, obviously you don't know what I'm talking about so you don't get the point.
> 
> The point is nothing is really that black and white.


This whole comment strikes me as super odd. You were the one who introduced formal philosophical systems into the discussion. And the one who argued that they're black and white. But in the next breath you say they aren't.

Mostly I find it silly that we'd even discuss Deontology in a thread about the everyday implications of the statement "me and mine come before everyone else". Or that the topic of martyrdom and starving kids in Africa are involved in a discussion about park etiquette. If people are regularly put in a position to die for others in your local park... well you should move to a better neighbourhood. 



> So, you called be egotistical because my personal loved ones come first and that's ridiculous. That's rational, natural, completely normal.Not caring more about an animal or person that is part of your every day life compared to some random stranger you don't even no (*know) isn't natural and if that's the case for you then that's pretty sad.


Nasty, nasty, nasty. But I guess I did say your outlook was egotistical and I do stand by that, so I guess its a wash. For what its worth I didn't say you shouldn't *care* more about your loved ones (and those feelings are by definition not rational). I said you should be able to acknowledge that they aren't fundamentally more important than anyone else and therefore don't "come first". And its true as far as society and daily life is concerned for most. Sure, I love my dog best and his welfare is my responsibility, but he is not more important than a child. The only way he "comes first" is in my affection, and since *everyone* feels that way its not a reasonable way to run society. 

So I try to hold myself to the idea that everyone else is just as important as "me and mine" and we don't just get to "come first" in our daily interactions with others. Especially if one of us is a dog. 

I had always just understood that as basic courtesy.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

aiw said:


> This whole comment strikes me as super odd. You were the one who introduced formal philosophical systems into the discussion. And the one who argued that they're black and white. But in the next breath you say they aren't.
> 
> Mostly I find it silly that we'd even discuss Deontology in a thread about the everyday implications of the statement "me and mine come before everyone else". Or that the topic of martyrdom and starving kids in Africa are involved in a discussion about park etiquette. If people are regularly put in a position to die for others in your local park... well you should move to a better neighbourhood.
> 
> ...


Basically, my point is...you are thinking in absolutes. I care about my dog more then a stranger so therefore I'm an egotistical person that doesn't care about other people. My own vs everyone else. It's not like that. There's a middle ground. Since you want to think in absolutes I was just making a point about something dealing with the whole ethical thinking of myself vs other people. Or egoism vs altruism. You either care about yourself first and foremost and everything you do is with yourself in mind or you care about everyone else more then yourself. There is no middle ground. That's just how it's taught. In extremes of this way or that way. Your way of obviously thinking the world works. Person loves dog and would choose to protect them over the feelings of a child = evil heartless person who is egotistical, hates children, and thinks their dog is more important then anything else in the world. So, you want to think in absolutes and black and white then you can think I'm a self centered egoist, good for you 

What's not rational about caring about your loved ones? 

As far as your idealistic view of society, it's nice to live in a dream world but let's get real... common courtesy only exist up until a person steps on another person's toes and then it goes out the window.


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

xoxluvablexox said:


> As far as your idealistic view of society, it's nice to live in a dream world but let's get real... common courtesy only exist up until a person steps on another person's toes and then it goes out the window.


Now now, don't speak for everyone.
I've dealt with many rude people and never stooped down to their level. It is possible. We as humans are given the power to restrain our emotional impulses.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

sassafras said:


> LOL you make it sound like people scream like banshees in a straight-up panic. This is pretty much how I start... and then when they ignore me and keep coming, I yell I SAID NO DON'T TOUCH HIM before they actually reach us. Then usually they listen. (Usually.)
> 
> And I said "when" instead of "if" deliberately because it's happened that way pretty much every time.
> 
> ...


That's just how I pictured it when several people said stuff about yelling at kids to protect them. Yelling to me is pretty loud, so when I try to see what you guys are saying it does feel like the person yelling is very upset and the only way I could see being that upset is you know something really bad is going to happen like a bite or mauling or something. That's why I said I would muzzle a dog like that. I wasn't trying to single you out or anything I read a few posts that said something along those lines so maybe some things got jumbled up.

And I think I wasn't very clear I wasn't saying kids couldn't handle being yelled at, just that it wasn't very helpful since it is pretty much guaranteed to tick pretty much any mom off. And I agree a kid running at your dog is not a training situation but you could turn it into one if you can keep your cool, even though you may have a right to be angry.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Chichan said:


> Now now, don't speak for everyone.
> I've dealt with many rude people and never stooped down to their level. It is possible. We as humans are given the power to restrain our emotional impulses.


I agree, I've never intentionally been rude to someone as far as I'm aware. Either initially or out of retaliation. If people are rude to me I just don't say anything back, get through the situation, and don't interact with them anymore. 

Smile and nod and back away slowly?

I'm sure I've done things other people have interpreted as rude that I haven't been aware of, but I would never consciously do something to make someone else angry/upset.

Also yes, I wouldn't consider a raised voice or a sharp "*Hey*" as yelling.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

You know, the "me and mine" discussion is pretty amusing in the sense that its been brought up from the side of the discussion that is essentially asserting the mother and child are more important than all others and the rights, feelings and comforts of all others (such as the dog owner and dog they made themselves a nuisance to) are irrelevant and that all others should just expect to be bothered and get over it. What was that about Me and Mine and selfish?

I can accept that "Me and Mine" are not *fundamentally* more important. Sure. But realistically, I'm going to place priority over myself and my animal if a parent can't even take it upon themselves to make his/her child a priority at my expense. Same if I'm out with my nephew or cousins, "Me and Mine" will come before you and yours. End of story.

And realistically, its selfish to expect that the only person that doesn't have the bulk of responsibility for a child is the parent, and that everyone else is responsible for the child and shoulder the burden of protecting the child rather than the parent.


And yes, children (most anyways) are not going to run around hurting people (I've been bit, kicked and hit by "stray" kids at parks, so really thats arguable. To other children and small animals I'm certain those kids, young as they were, had very real potential to hurt someone.) 

But we're not talking about the children hurting someone, we're talking about the parent failing to be close enough to act to PROTECT a child from a potential threat the child may engage. Yes, the OP's dog was safe with kids. But the mother did not know that and was not in a position to intervene. If a child that young is far enough away from a parent to engage a potential threat: The parent is being negligent.

If the dog were skittish and or not used to kids and the OP was not diligent enough to notice the oncoming child and stop it... That child could have been seriously injured. And unfortunately, the negligent mother would not be the one blamed for it and the Owner could lose their dog despite it having been leashed, under control and minding its own business before being accosted by the child it bit.

It is not the OP's responsibility to parent the child. It is not a stranger's dog's responsibility to entertain a child. Its not the OP's responsibility to teach a child how to approach (its a good thing to do, but that is NOT their responsibility.) It amazes me that posters repeatedly assert that its not a *PARENTS* job to parent, be diligent and keep a close eye on their child, look out for potential risks, teach their child.... And then assign those responsibilities to PERFECT STRANGERS! That is absurd!

And 2 years old is plenty old enough to begin teaching a child to stay close and not run after dogs. I've a nephew and seven cousins all under 6 and 9 close friends kids under 6. All of these kids by two were well adjusted (the random normal tantrum, sure), expressing themselves and LEARNING and RETAINING what they learned. At 2 my nephew helped me work with a child-shy dog and followed my behavioral coaching and instructions to a T, he was a big help actually. By 2 one of my cousins was riding ponies (and I'm not talking about fairground walkers). At 4, both are very competent around animals and my nephew loves to come over and help out. Children aren't creatures that suddenly come into sentience at age 5. A child age two is MORE than capable of learning, if the adults responsible for them takes the time for it.

The OP's responsibility is to train, care for and protect her animal and ensure it does not make itself a nuisance to others in public. Exactly what she was attempting to do. *ALL* responsibilities pertaining to the child are on the *Parent*.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I think my favorite thing is people who don't have kids judging people who do have kids. 

How do you know that kid isn't autistic or have some kind of learning disability? 

Toddlers are fast. I like for my kid to be able to explore his world. 

If someone takes a dog to the park, they can probably expect to interact with kids. 

If you don't want that, don't go to the park. Why is this so hard?

Or, do you only care about dogs that need extra work and extra love or a little extra patience??

Because it's kind of ridiculous. 

So yeah, I do think people should stop being so judgmental and self righteous just because they want to work with their dog. Or they don't want anyone touching the dog. Or whatever. 

You cannot expect privacy the moment you walk out your front door. 

You will have to interact with other humans. 

If you act like a jerk, you make dog owners everywhere look bad.

And I don't care how self righteous you feel when you scream at that kid and the mother. It doesn't make you right and it certainly won't win you respect.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I had too much time on my hands this morning...




I have to say, though, that I'm impressed it took 128 posts to reach "if you don't have kids you couldn't possibly understand." That rock bottom is always pretty inevitable, though.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I have to say, though, that I'm impressed it took 128 posts to reach "if you don't have kids you couldn't possibly understand." That rock bottom is always pretty inevitable, though.


I agree. It is inevitable, yet those with kids (at least non dog owners with kids) will yell and scream irresponsible dog owner if your dog gets off leash near their kids, but if their kids come running up to your dog (aggressive or not), it is ok, or at least laughed off and if the dog bites because the kids run up and do something, the dog most often gets blamed. 
Love the pics though


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

It's not okay for children to be allowed to run up to strange dogs, but remember, children don't require leashes, and really young kids simply don't know any better, even with really vigilant parents. If you're training your dog, or your dog isn't good around kids, bring them someplace secluded. 

As for "I'll yell at who I want when I want for any reason I want" just remember the consequences of your actions and how you handle things. Reaming out a two year old for not knowing better is a great way to start unnessecary trouble.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Once again, people seem unable to grasp the difference between "reaming out" a two year old and using a raised, stern voice. It's completely ridiculous, really.

If I don't want a strange kid running up in my dog's face _twice in a row_, I don't think I should have to go somewhere isolated. I don't want strange kids running out into the street in front of my car, but I don't make sure I only drive in isolated areas. (If they do, am I allowed to honk my horn to get their attention or is that too mean?) I don't want strange kids plowing into me at the grocery store, but I don't only shop at 3 am. 

Life happens, but common courtesy runs both ways. It's excusing the exact same thing happening more than once that has me shaking my head. Feel free to return to building up the strawman of the imaginary screaming banshee in your heads, though.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I am not a parent, but a 20 year old college student, and completely disagree with most of you non-parents. So the idea of not yelling at random people's children for approaching your dog in a public space is not something only a parent can grasp.


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## xena (Oct 3, 2013)

I'm a dog owner, not a parent BUT everyone knows how children are- not only 2 year olds- all children! And even better- some teenagers too! Some of them do very stupid things ( like two teenagers trying my dogs patience, shouting, hitting trees and other things to make him interested - plain stupidity trying to do this with dog their size). But so kids are- playing against the rules. And younger children getting knowledge about world around, learning from mistakes, running, screaming, laughing, jumping, playing, etc etc .... That's human being at young age- each one of us was there. Being in public places and to see kids of any age around means for me to leash my dog- i just use long leash. Even though my dog seems completely not interested in babies/kids/teenagers and in what they do, and he's completely fine with them coming and petting him- i have him on a leash to have 100% of control of his reaction. 99%times dog can be ok and one time he can do unexpected. I would not take any risk towards children even though I'm not such a child-loving person. I'm adult, i am responsible for what my dog does in any kind of situation. Bear in mind they would not put misbehaving child to sleep but your dog, if anything ever happens. My dog is off-leash near them only when i have 100% of his attention- which means i have his toy


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Considering how upset and defensive some of you are getting over the discussion, there's no wonder people get the image they do.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

In some ways you really don't "get it" until you have been there. You can empathize if you want (some of you clearly don't want to and some of you do) but you haven't done it so you don't really know what it is like. I thought I knew when I spent a year as a live in nanny for my friend but it is totally different when you are actually the one 100% responsible for raising another human being. Every decision you make suddenly becomes so much more important. What school you choose, what you feed your child, cloth diapers or disposable, it is all a huge deal. When my oldest was born there was a huge fuss about "benign neglect." The idea was that you should never leave your child alone even for a moment, if you did you were "neglecting" your child. Oh it was benign, you weren't really endangering them, but it was harmful to their developing psyche. Never leave them alone to entertain themselves, even if they seem happy. Be with them ever moment. Think about what that means, a generation of kids who can't entertain themselves because they have never actually been left alone to learn to do it? Scary. But it sounds really awful, neglect is right there in the name. You are neglecting your child and harming their sense of self. Everyone is living in so much fear. We are told as parents that everything is harmful to our children, the food they eat, our neighbors (never know if one of them is going to kidnap or molest your kid), the playground equipment (probably doesn't meet safety standards), the classes they take (they could break a bone), or don't take (they are going to be obese because they aren't active enough), the toys they play with (made in china, gonna kill them), and the neighborhood dogs (that pit bull is going to maul your baby). It is no wonder the new mother has been dubbed "helicopter mom", they hover over their children afraid to let them even an arms length away, swooping in to save them if they so much as stumble in the grass. However now we have studies showing that Helicopter parents produce kids that are neurotic, anxious, afraid to make decisions, unable to make friends, and who don't perform well on tests/or under pressure. So what are you going to do? Do you let junior stretch his legs a bit and take some risks or do you hover over him in case something jumps out to get him. Now I keep getting emails and FB posts about "good old days" when we played in the streets until the street lights came on, no one wore seat belts, you rode your bike to your friends, no one had cell phones, you didn't worry about calling your friend just went to their house and yelled, ect. That is obviously romanticized and I am grateful for seat belts and car seats but obviously you can't make everyone happy. Overprotect your kids you raise neurotic "sissies", don't hover over them and you are an "irresponsible parent". As far as annoying people when out with your child or dog, I'm not that concerned about it to be honest. People do really stupid stuff, the world is full of truly rude people. I am not going to get bent out of shape about people getting annoyed at me doing what I think is best for my kids. I actually had a woman yell at my autistic 3year old and call him "stupid" because he wouldn't acknowledge her request to pet her puppy. I have no idea why she even wanted him to pet her puppy, he was picking up rocks and had no idea she was there. People amaze me with their rudeness and it comes from all sorts of people. It would be lovely if all people took some time to really think before they acted but they don't.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm actually not upset at all, you're projecting. Once again, as per usual, projecting tone and motive rears its ugly head. I'm actually quite enjoying this thread tbh.  

If you actually read my posts you'll see that I agreed body blocking and asking nicely was the way to start, but then I'm not afraid to yell for fear of hurting delicate widdle feelings. So once again, you're getting that idea from your own projection and assumptions. 

I remember being yelled at by strangers when I was doing stupid things in public, I'm not sure why this generation is so fragile that they can't be reprimanded. 

If you don't want me yelling at your kid, maybe you should stay home.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I'm actually not upset at all, you're projecting. Once again, as per usual, projecting tone and motive rears its ugly head. I'm actually quite enjoying this thread tbh.
> 
> If you actually read my posts you'll see that I agreed body blocking and asking nicely was the way to start, but then I'm not afraid to yell for fear of hurting delicate widdle feelings. So once again, you're getting that idea from your own projection and assumptions.
> 
> ...


I don't have kids, so I'm sorry to disappoint you, but no, I'm not projecting. In the end you'll do what you'll do, and behave how you behave, but remember you're an adult, where as these are kids who don't know better. You should. I don't bring my dogs to dog parks or public areas where we'll run into loose dogs. If you don't want to deal with children, go someplace secluded where you won't see them.

ETA: Also, the freedom to have a big mouth doesn't make you free from the consequences of running it. Do what you want, but don't be surprised when you get punched in the face by an angry parent.


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## Tetrisash (Apr 17, 2014)

My tolerance for children is pretty much nil, so I'm on the side of Arya, really. Yeah they were at a public park and kids will be kids, but more than once like that? Mother obviously wasn't paying attention and just because someone's out in public doesn't mean they have to put up with other people's crap without saying something about it. A lot of parents completely coddle their kids and let themselves be walked all over, so go ahead and let them be offended when they let their kid bother someone only for that someone to reprimand the kid--something the parent should be doing. No one should be told they have to force a grin and take it when they have the right to say something about it. Good on Arya and anyone else who will.

That goes for anyone. Watch your kid, watch your dog, whatever, it's your responsibility to not let them harass other people who clearly aren't welcoming intrusion in their day. It doesn't matter if it's out in public or not, it doesn't make it okay.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

ok so what if this kid ran up to another dog?
A guide dog perhaps?
Managed to get ahold of the guide dog doing a very important job and the handler ended up getting hurt? 

Is it the mothers fault for not keeping a good eye on her daughter then?


Also, when Manna was younger a 2-3 year old kid ran across a 3 lane road in order to attach herself to Manna's behind. Where was the mother then? 
The kid could have been run over. 


Parents, there is only so much we as dog owners can do before your responsibilities have to kick in, and from reading the OP's first post, she did have herself and dog moved to a quieter part of the park away from the playground. If you kid is far enough away from the parent in public to latch onto or charge at someone's dog then they are far enough away to get hurt, hurt others, or get taken. I hope these kids never get taken but if you can't protect your kid from a dog then what happens when you kid runs at a stranger with candy?


But this is just my childless but child loving point of view.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

It's the mother's fault, so yell at the mom. You guys don't seem to mind yelling so why not direct it at the person responsible is my point. Talk to the mom once, 2yo does it again, yell at the kid? No, yell at the mom. Yelling at a TWO YEAR OLD is NOT going to stop it from happening again. Yell at the person who CAN. 

I keep reading all the "mom should be watching him, she's so irresponsible" comments so yelling at the toddler to me does not fit in here. He didn't run at the dog again to make you mad personally he's just being a toddler. It's the mom's fault so be angry at the baby. I don't have kids either.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I had too much time on my hands this morning...


Hehehehe.... This is more how I imagine the encounter...


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> I think my favorite thing is people who don't have kids judging people who do have kids.


Same way I can make a judgement call on someone letting an ill-behaved dog roam off leash or showing no consideration for those around them. (and the same way you've done towards those who don't agree with you.)



> How do you know that kid isn't autistic or have some kind of learning disability?


Seriously?! All the more reason to keep a CLOSE eye on the child!



> Toddlers are fast. I like for my kid to be able to explore his world.


Then you should have little to say when the child learns a lesson the hard way because you couldn't be bothered.



> If someone takes a dog to the park, they can probably expect to interact with kids.


And if someone takes their kids to the park, they can expect that everyone else is there for their own reasons and is not there to look after their kids.




> If you don't want that, don't go to the park. Why is this so hard?


A park is for recreation. Not watching other people's children. If you can't be bothered control or look out for your child, maybe you shouldn't take to run around in public. Its unreasonable to tell others that if they don't want to be bothered by the children you can't be bothered to manage, to stay home and not enjoy public areas.



> Or, do you only care about dogs that need extra work and extra love or a little extra patience??
> 
> Because it's kind of ridiculous.


Cut the crap. I care about kids, I like kids. What I don't like is when others consider their children to be everyone else's responsibility and have no concern or consideration for how they may effect or inconvenience others.

If you don't have the patience or motivation to protect and look after your children yourself and expect others to do it or go home, THAT is "kind of ridiculous".



> So yeah, I do think people should stop being so judgmental and self righteous just because they want to work with their dog. Or they don't want anyone touching the dog. Or whatever.


Judgemental and self-righteous? Like the parents putting down someone for being willing to admit that a lax mother repeatedly let her child engage a strange dog? Thinking that a parent's use of a public area supercedes the access and use of all other members of the public and their personal space?



> You cannot expect privacy the moment you walk out your front door.


And you can't expect everyone else to look out for your children or find their antics cute.



> You will have to interact with other humans.


And you will have to actually parent and look out for your children.



> If you act like a jerk, you make dog owners everywhere look bad.


Same goes for parents.



> And I don't care how self righteous you feel when you scream at that kid and the mother. It doesn't make you right and it certainly won't win you respect.


Same goes for parenting. No matter how entitled and self-righteous you feel or how cute you think it is when you and your children cause issues for others... Being a parent / child does not make it ok by default and it certainly won't earn you respect.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> It's the mother's fault, so yell at the mom. You guys don't seem to mind yelling so why not direct it at the person responsible is my point. Talk to the mom once, 2yo does it again, yell at the kid? No, yell at the mom. Yelling at a TWO YEAR OLD is NOT going to stop it from happening again. Yell at the person who CAN.
> 
> I keep reading all the "mom should be watching him, she's so irresponsible" comments so yelling at the toddler to me does not fit in here. He didn't run at the dog again to make you mad personally he's just being a toddler. It's the mom's fault so be angry at the baby. I don't have kids either.


She wasn't fussing at the toddler or scolding them, she was trying to get the child to stop in their tracks. Loudly exclaiming "No! STOP!" at the mother when you're trying to stop the excited child wouldn't achieve much other than confusing the mom and making her, who you want to HURRY to stop and the child, who you want to stop to keep going. Kind of defeats the purpose...


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> She wasn't fussing at the toddler or scolding them, she was trying to get the child to stop in their tracks. Loudly exclaiming "No! STOP!" at the mother when you're trying to stop the excited child wouldn't achieve much other than confusing the mom and making her, who you want to HURRY to stop and the child, who you want to stop to keep going. Kind of defeats the purpose...


You don't have to yell to make a toddler stop. I'm saying there was no reason to yell at the kid period. He's 2. It's not your job or place to yell, parent, discipline, whatever OTHER people's kids. Unless people are telling me they seriously can't just step in front and a 2 year old from their dog while they tell the mom to get her child.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

this is totally out there but of course I wanted to share because it's me .... it's interesting... Mamma goose has a load of baby goslings they start teaching them to stay as soon as they are hatched... but there is always that one who thinks they don't have to stay and wants to wonder off,, either from the nest while mamma is still hatching eggs, or when mamma is taking them out in a group.. if any of those babies stray from the tight formation with the mamma.. all the other geese gang attack and scream at the baby relentlessly.. They don't hurt the baby but the baby learns the only safe place is with their mom.. They not trying to hurt the baby , they trying to help the baby learn to stay safe where they are protected with their mother


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm confused by this whole thread.

If a kid ran up to my dog, I would stop it and accept the parent's apology. If a kid ran up to my dog again, I'd STOP IT, with quite a bit less patience, and firmly educate the parent as to the dangers of a kid approaching a strange dog. Same scenario if a loose dog approached my dog. Shouting, body blocking, what does it matter if the kid is prevented from potentially being bitten? Or from practicing bad habits. The parent is failing to parent. _I_ shouldn't have to protect _your _child from a risky situation. But I will because I care about your child, and I care about my dog. But if you don't like my methods of parenting your child (shouting, body blocking, explaining, whatever), then you should probably quit putting me into a position where I have to.

I may not have responded to the situation exactly how the OP did, but I don't blame her for her frustration.


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## GoldenLove (Jan 7, 2014)

Yea yelling at a two year old really shows ones maturity. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Shouting, body blocking, what does it matter if the kid is prevented from potentially being bitten?
> 
> I may not have responded to the situation exactly how the OP did, but I don't blame her for her frustration.


Because it's making the situation even more heated what is the point of that? You yell and the mom gets pissed, yells at you just like what happened here. Everybody storms off and nobody learned anything plus you just vented your frustration on a baby. Maybe that makes you feel better in the moment but I agree with what was just said it's not very mature. 

You can't go outside and yell at everyone to stay away from you. And why bother socializing our dogs if it's only everyone else's responsibility to keep themselves and their kids away from our dogs. It's our responsibility to make our dogs safe to be in public, and if you want someone to stay away, MOVE AWAY. You can't make anybody do anything except yourself you want space make space in an APPROPRIATE way.

"To keep the kid safe". I keep seeing that, if a toddler is in imminent danger just running up to you and your dog why did you go to a public park with kids in it? People have mentioned kids annoy them, so you know how they are, why choose to go someplace where you're pretty much guaranteed a run in at some point? 

Yes, if it was me, I would be frustrated. I've said OP had reason to be annoyed. The only real issue I had after reading the OP was yelling at the kid, that's it.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> You don't have to yell to make a toddler stop. I'm saying there was no reason to yell at the kid period. He's 2. *It's not your job or place to yell, parent, discipline, whatever OTHER people's kids. *Unless people are telling me they seriously can't just step in front and a 2 year old from their dog while they tell the mom to get her child.


I *AGREE*
Unless of course the parent puts you in a position where you're forced to step in. Such as this incident. And which apparently many parents here think is everyone's job except their own, until it happens.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I'm confused by this whole thread.
> 
> If a kid ran up to my dog, I would stop it and accept the parent's apology. If a kid ran up to my dog again, I'd STOP IT, with quite a bit less patience, and firmly educate the parent as to the dangers of a kid approaching a strange dog. Same scenario if a loose dog approached my dog. Shouting, body blocking, what does it matter if the kid is prevented from potentially being bitten? Or from practicing bad habits. The parent is failing to parent. *I shouldn't have to protect your child from a risky situation. But I will because I care about your child, and I care about my dog. But if you don't like my methods of parenting your child (shouting, body blocking, explaining, whatever), then you should probably quit putting me into a position where I have to*.
> 
> I may not have responded to the situation exactly how the OP did, but I don't blame her for her frustration.


My sentiments shared exactly, much more tidy than I managed.
And that bold portion sums it up quite neatly.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Because it's making the situation even more heated what is the point of that? You yell and the mom gets pissed, yells at you just like what happened here. Everybody storms off and nobody learned anything plus you just vented your frustration on a baby. Maybe that makes you feel better in the moment but I agree with what was just said it's not very mature.
> 
> You can't go outside and yell at everyone to stay away from you. And why bother socializing our dogs if it's only everyone else's responsibility to keep themselves and their kids away from our dogs. It's our responsibility to make our dogs safe to be in public, and if *you want someone to stay away, MOVE AWAY.* You can't make anybody do anything except yourself you want space make space in an APPROPRIATE way.


She *did* just that. AND told the mother not to allow it. Didn't help.



> "To keep the kid safe". I keep seeing that, if a toddler is in imminent danger just running up to you and your dog why did you go to a public park with kids in it? People have mentioned kids annoy them, so you know how they are, why choose to go someplace where you're pretty much guaranteed a run in at some point?


Again, whether the dog is friendly or not is irrelevant. The Parent does not know that and its not everyone else's job to to do risk management for other people's children. And even if it IS a friendly dog that loves kids, again, it is not the owner and dog's job to entertain the interest of the child. They didn't go to a park with kids to entertain the kids, they go to a park to enjoy the park and time with their dog. And that is perfectly reasonable.



> Yes, if it was me, I would be frustrated. I've said OP had reason to be annoyed. The only real issue I had after reading the OP was yelling at the kid, that's it.


I doubt she was yelling abuse at the child. A loud No! Stay Away! is not going to scar a child.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> She *did* just that. AND told the mother not to allow it. Didn't help.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So move away again. 

I didn't say it was the owner's job to do risk management of other people's kids, it's the owner's job to have a stable dog out in public OR take precautions. A very small child running around isn't a threat and if you think your dog would react as if it was then maybe you need to do a little bit of risk management. What happens every time a kid gets bit? Everyone goes off on how terrible the owners are and how they should have been more responsible. I understand they weren't there to play with kids at the park but anytime you go to any public space it shouldn't shock you to run into other people. If someone is so annoyed to be bothered during training or playing, maybe they should go somewhere private. If you're working on commands with distractions there's a big distraction right there why not take advantage of the opportunity? 

I've never said it's going to scar a child to be yelled at. I said it's POINTLESS to yell at a 2 year old. You're an adult and they are a baby. Why would you yell at a baby? People said it's to keep them safe but the way I read the OP it was more out of anger and frustration which is not okay. Like I said yelling to me is like hollering across the park. Raising your voice isn't yelling.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> I think my favorite thing is people who don't have kids judging people who do have kids.
> 
> How do you know that kid isn't autistic or have some kind of learning disability?
> 
> ...


I don't scream at kids but I get in front of my dog and explain that they are so big they scare my dog. Toddlers love being bigger than something. I can walk my dog fast enough to keep ahead of zooming toddlers and have been known to circle around to lead the little one back to the exasperated human that is supposed to be in charge. I will not stand there hoping toddler stops and in charge human catches up before toddler starts grabbing. I also ask where's your mom, toddlers don't like that mom doesn't know where they are usually and will get worried. A worried possibly crying toddler isn't molesting my dog anyway.

I don't see anybody in my area upset about toddlers getting pulled away, told off and so on when they approach dogs on their own. They all seem to understand dogs are just another dangerous object toddlers have to learn about and they had better be with them when they are interacting. I haven't heard a recent one but a sweet first grader got a chunk taken out of her nose by a tied up dog with wagging tail 15 years ago. Dogs are dangerous, stay away.

Freedom/independence must be earned over time. If your toddler is far enough away that you cannot run to get him/her he is too far away. If he/she thinks it a super fun game to run away when you call or run to him/her then he/she is too far away. I'd actually be treating this one same way I do with the dogs, sometimes I chase you, sometimes you chase me and when I need you you stay or come. And that starts with child within arm's reach and as the rules are learned more distance is allowed. It isn't just dogs, there are bikes, skateboards, people not watching out for babies, trees, spiky bushes, curbs, food on the ground, trash, dangerous objects and so on even if you are keeping away from the obviously dangerous street/driveway/parking lot. Toddlers need to be redirected and physically manipulated [good luck with that at times!] to change what they are doing and you can be only so far away to do such. 

And they can do it. I complimented a mom with a 2 year old yesterday who stopped at the gate as he had obviously been asked to do. His siblings were in front and continued walking but he was asked to stop and he did. Mom was maybe 20 feet behind, I was ready to ask him to wait for mom but it wasn't necessary.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> "To keep the kid safe". I keep seeing that, if a toddler is in imminent danger just running up to you and your dog why did you go to a public park with kids in it? People have mentioned kids annoy them, so you know how they are, why choose to go someplace where you're pretty much guaranteed a run in at some point?


My dog loves kids. But I don't know what your child will do to my dog. Jump on it? Grab its fur? Hug it? I can never say with 100% certainty how my dog will react if your child is young, and charging toward us without supervision. Probably, Gypsy would go wiggly and give kisses. Still, there's a small chance she might be spooked and nip. Or maybe she'd be overexcited and knock your kid over. _It's not worth the risk._

As far as yelling goes, maybe yelling at a 2-year-old is harsh. I don't think it's _that _big of a deal, though. I also don't think you get to nitpick someone's reaction to your failure to parent your child. Yelling doesn't traumatize or hurt your child. Getting knocked over, or nipped, or scratched by a dog would be worse.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Honestly think the parents should just own it,,, "no more excuses" and just own it...  there is just nothing else for a solution to this subject.. accident's happen , own it... I don't say anything to anyone even when I get the verbal bashing from a mother who needs to try to be as loud as they can to redirect the situation onto someone else to save face in public. When I am out in public with my dog, my priority is that dog.. When I'm not in public with a dog you bet I would be the first one to jump in to add an extra hand to a Mother of 4 trying to manage 3 kids on the ground and an infant in a carrier in the shopping cart to watch the cart and the two kids while she chases the oldest boy down the front of the store.. When I pull out in front of someone accidentally in my car and and they all with the visual at you ,, I am truly sorry and embarrassed for causing the situation.. Am not the one to give hand signals back lol .. I just own it and try to do better that it don't happen again..


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm not reading the entire thread but want to say that you were in a people park. That means that people are there, kids included. You're responsible to make sure your dog doesn't hurt people. Yes, the parent is responsible for their kid but if your dog bites someone, it's you & your dog will pay the price. 

So sorry your dog parks are being Re-done but find a place without humans to train your dog.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Sarah~ said:


> "To keep the kid safe". I keep seeing that, if a toddler is in imminent danger just running up to you and your dog why did you go to a public park with kids in it? People have mentioned kids annoy them, so you know how they are, why choose to go someplace where you're pretty much guaranteed a run in at some point?


I keep seeing this to, and it makes me laugh. Lets be honest people, most of you here commenting don't give a damn about the kid's safety or well being. You care about being inconvenienced. That's what it boils down to.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Oh I got the "stupid animal" comment from parents before ... To which I always reply "well MY 'animal' listens, while yours doesn't so who's the stupid animal now?" 

Look ... I want to tell everyone here that you DONT have to out up with irresponsible people just because you think it's socially "wrong" to tell them off. Who CARES??? Tell them off if they deserve it!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> This is just the opinion of the mother of a 22 month old baby boy...
> 
> If your dog is not safe around human beings OR if you want absolute privacy, a PUBLIC PARK is probably not where you should go to train.
> 
> And let me be frank here: you may think that you're intimidating and tough but you would have thought twice about being so rude to this little southern girl. Bless your heart.


I am not only southern but Texan as well and while I am a cordial person, forgive me but I will say that the "free range rude" (as I call rude inconsiderate people) don't get or deserve my cordiality. I would have no problem yelling at your kid if they ran up and started harassing my dog. It doesn't matter if it's a kid, another dog, an adult, if they harass my dog then they are getting yelled at and, if necessary ... Stepped into. I would rather peeve someone off then have to deal with a dog who has a bite history because of someone's stupidity.

Oh, and my dog IS friendly, that's not the point, the point is the next dog they do that to might not be friendly, but if you'd rather have your kid disfigured by a dog because someone didn't try to give your kid a "this is why you always ask" lesson then who is the irresponsible one? 

Are you even a dog person? I wonder.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> I've never said it's going to scar a child to be yelled at. I said it's POINTLESS to yell at a 2 year old. You're an adult and they are a baby. Why would you yell at a baby?


Once again, because they didn't pay attention to my body blocking or telling them in a more normal tone of voice not to pet my dog. If it takes raising my voice to get a kid to listen to me, then I'm going to raise my voice enough so they notice and listen to me. I'm not sure why that's so hard to grasp? 



RCloud said:


> I keep seeing this to, and it makes me laugh. Lets be honest people, most of you here commenting don't give a damn about the kid's safety or well being. You care about being inconvenienced. That's what it boils down to.


Man, you really really like to project motivation onto people. Frankly, it says more about you than it says about anyone else.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

RCloud said:


> I keep seeing this to, and it makes me laugh. Lets be honest people, most of you here commenting don't give a damn about the kid's safety or well being. You care about being inconvenienced. That's what it boils down to.


Yup. In this situation we aren't talking about a child coming up and biting your dog, pulling on your dog, or even touching your dog. A child just happened to come near you while you were training your dog, and you guys just don't like children. Not an excuse to yell at a little child. If it was such a concern that your dog can't have a child NEAR it, don't bring your dog to a human park.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Man, you really really like to project motivation onto people. Frankly, it says more about you than it says about anyone else.


Well, I think if someone like you approved of anything I said or did, I'd have to greatly re-examine my character, so this is good  I'm glad you think that!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have what I would call a drill Sargent yell, it's a harsh, barking yell that, if need be can carry over two acres. But even at "up close" level it is menacing and gruff enough to stop and startle a kid, animal and even bratty teenagers. Also body lingo and facial expression also play a part (I have been told I am quite "scary by OH lol) 

I don't care, my dog is my property and I have a right to say hands off and if I say no and they don't listen I will get as nasty as I need to. 

Everyone is talking about the dog being not in the OP's control, I believe she did mention that the dog was on a leash and therefore under her control. 

About yelling scaring my dogs, since I don't yell at them (I only use a stern voice or redirect) they don't fear yelling, in fact if they hear the "drill sergeant yell" they come running back to me because they know I will run interference.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

No one is saying you don't have the right to yell at random young children, just asking why in the world you would do that?! And this has nothing to do with the fact that the dog was on a leash. I just can't wrap my mind around someone thinking it's no big deal to walk around parks screaming at stranger's children when they come near you. That's what crazy people do.


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## cma48 (Mar 30, 2014)

I enjoyed reading the first couple of posts on this thread. There were many valid points made from those defending the OP and those who weren't. But this thread has become ineffectual and at this point has just become an argument. Everyone has made their point and no one here is going to change anyone's mind on how they feel on the matter.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Eenypup said:


> No one is saying you don't have the right to yell at random young children, just asking why in the world you would do that?! And this has nothing to do with the fact that the dog was on a leash.* I just can't wrap my mind around someone thinking it's no big deal to walk around parks screaming at stranger's children when they come near you. That's what crazy people do.*


LOL I know, right? This is exactly what I'm envisioning. The old, disgruntled hags you see every now and then in big city parks, having meltdowns on little kids for being little kids. That may not be exactly what the OP or others here are quite like, but seriously. Chill out!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RCloud said:


> LOL I know, right? This is exactly what I'm envisioning. The old, disgruntled hags you see every now and then in big city parks, having meltdowns on little kids for being little kids. That may not be exactly what the OP or others here are quite like, but seriously. Chill out!


Maybe no one likes being referred to as old, disgruntled hags and that doesn't make you seem any more level headed than all these folks you're asking to chill out?


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Maybe no one likes being referred to as old, disgruntled hags and that doesn't make you seem any more level headed than all these folks you're asking to chill out?


Except I've referred to no one as that  Nice try!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RCloud said:


> Except I've referred to no one as that  Nice try!


Huh. What am I trying for?


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Huh. What am I trying for?


You tell me. Clearly it's something.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RCloud said:


> You tell me. Clearly it's something.


Like.. what? Is there a secret internet prize I would earn?


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Like.. what? Is there a secret internet prize I would earn?


If there was, I wouldn't tell you! That would ruin the surprise, wouldn't it?


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

This thread... Wow


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

Wow, that is sad. Our son has loved dogs since he was just starting to walk. So, we made sure to watch him. Once he was talking and old enough to understand, we taught him that all dogs are off limits unless you ask the owner. So, he went through a phase where every time he saw somebody walking a dog by us he'd say, "Can I pet your dog?" If they said yes, he was very gentle, and we taught him how to approach them, treat them, etc. But, we also taught him that if the person was jogging, not to ask. I'd also judge the situation, and if it looked like the owner was preoccupied I'd just say, "Don't ask these people, they're busy" or whatever. 

I had a lot of people thank him for asking first.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

We are not talking about screaming at "Random" kids, we are talking about schooling young kids who come RUNNING UP and grab/hug/or otherwise molest the dog of a complete stranger! I don't see how anyone could have gotten that out of the OP's original post. 

A lot of kids are "near" my dog, that's fine, they can even point and smile and whatever. Be happy to see the dog, I don't give a frack, I don't even have a problem with them talking or calling to them (they wont respond anyway). Where I have a PROBLEM is when they: throw something at, or come up and molest my dog. and they the "drill sergeant" WILL come out, and it usually consists of a barking "Hey! I said NO!" with the stance to back it up. I don't yell, I never yell unless the situation is happening a ways away from me, if I have my dog on a long line (which I normally do at general public parks). I think the OP was doing her best to avoid a situation, she moved further away, kept her dog on a leash and was generally minding her own business. 

Same deal with the pet store, I have also been harassed before (why are kids even allowed in pet stores anyway?  ) and also at the DP, in fact, I changed dog parks at one point because both had a "no kids allowed" law ... but only one enforced it.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Ah yes, the child running up close to your dog might as well be throwing rocks at it! If there was a two year old throwing something at my dog, hitting my dog, etc yes it WOULD be a bit of a different situation. I personally would not yell but in that case could see why someone might get upset since the dog is being hurt. I wouldn't call a two year old running up behind a dog with his mother following to be harassment.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Eenypup said:


> Ah yes, the child running up close to your dog might as well be throwing rocks at it! If there was a two year old throwing something at my dog, hitting my dog, etc yes it WOULD be a bit of a different situation. I personally would not yell but in that case could see why someone might get upset since the dog is being hurt. I wouldn't call a two year old running up behind a dog with his mother following to be harassment.


Maybe not but I would make damn sure they didn't get their grubby hands on my dogs ... simple as that. You can see my dog (she is the one in my avatar) she is a cute, fluffy, sweet looking dog ... she looks like a stuffed toy so as you might expect, we get a TON of attention when we are out. I would consider myself a failure as an owner if I didn't run interference for her, since she cant defend herself without being labeled one of "those" dogs.

So when faced with a choice, of "offending" some mother or "scaring" a kid to protect my dog you bet your bones I will.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Eenypup said:


> Ah yes, the child running up close to your dog might as well be throwing rocks at it! If there was a two year old throwing something at my dog, hitting my dog, etc yes it WOULD be a bit of a different situation. I personally would not yell but in that case could see why someone might get upset since the dog is being hurt. I wouldn't call a two year old running up behind a dog with his mother following to be harassment.


I guess I just keep missing the part where the baby was doing actual harm to the dog other than being annoying? It sounds like mama was trailing behind the baby, not chatting on her cell or reading a magazine. Maybe she should have been a little faster after her baby, but it really doesn't sound like this was some big situation where yelling at anyone was necessary. OP didn't really say, but if they hadn't had intervened, was the mom really going to let the baby touch the dog? Was she really that far away? By the way the mom apologized initially it really doesn't sound like she would have, but none of us were there so who knows. 
Idk, I guess if, I personally as a dog owner, take my dog to a park that welcomes children and dogs I just expect that there's a chance of some sort of interaction between the two. 

And as a parent, you're not going to "offend" me or "scar" my son if you yell at him for running towards your dog (although, I can pretty much guarantee I'd scoop his butt up before he got too close, not that I ever plan on taking him to a park where off leash dogs are allowed)... all you're going to do is make yourself look kind of like a crazy person.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I was at a huge outside open house for Fire and Public safety last year. Tons of people there, fire trucks, police cars, helicopters flying overhead, and tons of kids. Out of no where this toddler appears and wraps it's arms around Peanut's neck in a bear hug. I quickly get the kid off of my dog and then mom appears and apologizes then takes her kid away. No sooner then I turned my head back to who I was talking to (Peanut was laying on the grass chilling out, minding her own business) I see the kid flying straight back to Peanut. I quickly yelled for his mom and tried to stop the kid. By the third time I was irritated and Peanut was at her limit of allowing kids to hug her. I scared the kid enough by getting louder and lowering my voice enough to scare him away. I don't expect my dog to take everything and I know her limits. I was very proud of her for letting the kid hug twice her without even flinching, just giving me the look of "Um, Lady? I don't like this!". I did my job at fixing what she didn't like and she allows me to do so without reacting to things she doesn't like the way a dog would: growling and snapping.

If you can't be a parent and watch your child, then I'm going to protect your child because my dog's life is at state and I don't want your kid to get hurt. Don't like it? Watch your kid.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Darkmoon said:


> I was at a huge outside open house for Fire and Public safety last year. Tons of people there, fire trucks, police cars, helicopters flying overhead, and tons of kids. Out of no where this toddler appears and wraps it's arms around Peanut's neck in a bear hug. I quickly get the kid off of my dog and then mom appears and apologizes then takes her kid away. No sooner then I turned my head back to who I was talking to (Peanut was laying on the grass chilling out, minding her own business) I see the kid flying straight back to Peanut. I quickly yelled for his mom and tried to stop the kid. By the third time I was irritated and Peanut was at her limit of allowing kids to hug her. I scared the kid enough by getting louder and lowering my voice enough to scare him away. I don't expect my dog to take everything and I know her limits. I was very proud of her for letting the kid hug twice her without even flinching, just giving me the look of "Um, Lady? I don't like this!". I did my job at fixing what she didn't like and she allows me to do so without reacting to things she doesn't like the way a dog would: growling and snapping.
> 
> If you can't be a parent and watch your child, then I'm going to protect your child because my dog's life is at state and I don't want your kid to get hurt. Don't like it? Watch your kid.


Yep, exactly. Don't like it? watch your kid, I would be willing to forgive one time as an accident, but twice? No, that to me, is irresponsible. Most parents would be livid and ranting and raving if one of our dogs did that ONCE let alone twice! So no, why should they get the same curtsey?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

My perspective is bit different as the owner of a lovely gal that is not OK with children. It's mostly a height thing. She's OK with children that are of a certain height, but back when she was a foster she was just fine with kids. When she was adopted and then "returned" (meaning, I found her dumped in a shelter instead of returning to me) she suddenly lunged at a child and was very reactive to kids after. We worked very hard on the reactivity, but I would never trust her with a child. If I have to get loud, I will. I do not want my 12 year old dog biting a child. We don't go to pet stores, we don't go to parks, we don't go any where there may be a slight chance of a child. She still deserves to amble around the neighborhood a few times a week.

While I'm not into the OPs scenario, I am firmly of the belief that just because I'm outside, it doesn't mean you get to interact with me or my dogs. If I ask you to back off, that's fair enough. I have raised my voice with adults that were being inappropriate towards me, or towards my dogs. It's not like I hide in the bushes waiting to yell at people.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yep, exactly. Don't like it? watch your kid, I would be willing to forgive one time as an accident, but twice? No, that to me, is irresponsible. Most parents would be livid and ranting and raving if one of our dogs did that ONCE let alone twice! So no, why should they get the same curtsey?


YES, this!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Wow ...........

I have 4 children.

The last time I remember "Not" yelling at a child after warning the "irresponsible" parent standing right in front of me ... that my dog "would" bite ... the child had his face bitten and ended up in the Er with some significant injuries requiring stitches. My dog was secured on a leash and right next to me ... unable to reach the child. Luckily my dog was not euthanized.

The last time I looked I live in America ... and IMO if I am not yelling obscenities at your child ... and I "Yell" .. "Stop!" ....... Oh well.

It is saving your child from getting their face bitten off and my dog from being euthanized because you were not watching your child. If you were watching your child you would have been on it in a flash. And you cannot tell me where I can be and cannot be in regards to where I have my dog ... unless there is legal notice posted.

We all know 2 years old's are in the "Terrible Two's" and do not listen for squat. So do yourself a favor and not worry about the "yelling" .... They are going to get a lot more "Yelling" at by the time they reach adulthood. I am sure they will survive. And IMHO ... They won't die or be scarred for life by it .... unless of course they get their face bitten off.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> My perspective is bit different as the owner of a lovely gal that is not OK with children. It's mostly a height thing. She's OK with children that are of a certain height, but back when she was a foster she was just fine with kids. When she was adopted and then "returned" (meaning, I found her dumped in a shelter instead of returning to me) she suddenly lunged at a child and was very reactive to kids after. We worked very hard on the reactivity, but I would never trust her with a child. If I have to get loud, I will. I do not want my 12 year old dog biting a child. We don't go to pet stores, we don't go to parks, we don't go any where there may be a slight chance of a child. She still deserves to amble around the neighborhood a few times a week.
> 
> While I'm not into the OPs scenario, I am firmly of the belief that just because I'm outside, it doesn't mean you get to interact with me or my dogs. If I ask you to back off, that's fair enough. I have raised my voice with adults that were being inappropriate towards me, or towards my dogs. It's not like I hide in the bushes waiting to yell at people.


As another former owner of an older dog who was NOT tolerant if kids under the age of 5-7 I can sympathize. Her into loans actually came from being picked up and dropped by a small child who was NOT being watched by his parents.

A life long aversion that could have been prevented, the child had gotten to her one time before and if I had "yelled" and out a stop to it I might not have had to deal with a lifelong behavior problem in my poor dog.

So no, no kid is allowed near by dog UNLESS I say so snd UNLESS I can control the interaction.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I am so happy that 2-3 year old kid did not scar Manna for life by latching onto her butt during our walk last summer, but still.
That kid was in more danger than that mom will ever admit too.
(3 lane road, strange giant dog, strange person, ect)


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

A small child (I guess about 3-4 years old) picked Izze up (after he tried to mess with her once before and I moved away as far as I could) We were in the office at the stables where I kept my horses (A place where on leash dogs are allowed mind you) and I was signing some paperwork when I felt my leash tug. I looked around to see the child picking up my small puppy, who started to struggle and dropped her ON HER HEAD (luckily she wasn't hurt physically ).

If I had been an "arse hole" in the beginning I could've prevented that bad experience and the lifetime of fear based aggression and aversion to small kids. So forgive me if the way I act isn't "socially acceptable" but what parents don't understand is they aren't the ones who are going to have to DEAL with the reprocussions of such an incident, they think that dogs are just simple animals who dont (or can't ) have mental trauma from a bad experience as a youngster. 

But they can and it's my obligation to prevent that, ESP if I pay good money for a puppy who could be forever ruined because of someone's stupidity.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I have raised two kids to adulthood who have lived their entire lives around dogs and spent countless hours as toddlers at the neighborhood park. I have worked in Spec Ed for over 30 years. I love kids and I love being around kids. I will tell you straight out. If you can't keep your two year old away from a dog that is unknown to you, not once but twice, then you better be prepared for a verbal lashing. Yes, I know 2 years olds are fast but you as a parent need to be ever vigilant for your kid's sake. The OP's dog was _on leash_ and _under control_ and had every right to be at the park. That parent is lucky that the OP's dog was tolerant and all she walked away with was that verbal lashing. As for telling a toddler to keep away from a dog in a strong voice, ie. yelling...would anyone not yell at a two year old who was going to do something potentially dangerous like putting their hands on a hot stove or dashing into the street. I have.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Agreed, it wouldn't be any different then yelling or saying "NO!" In a gruff voice to a small child who is about to touch a hot stove or about to out their hands into a light socket, so why would it suddenly be so stigmatic to raise ones voice at a child who is about to touch a strange dog? 

Parents should be thanking me and dog owners like me who are brave enough socially to protect THEIR kids because they can't be troubled to say no to them :/


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I am thrilled that this has now devolved into the parent and child bashing thread. I debated even bothering to post. I have 5 dogs all raised with kids, handled by kids daily. None are "traumatized" by being hugged or picked up by children. I'm going to admit that several have probably been dropped by a child, you can take away my good dog owner card. Heck I think I've probably dropped several of my dogs, I'm not perfect and they get squirmy as puppies. None of them are afraid of me, my husband or my kids. They don't cower in fear when they see strange children and to this day every one of them still enjoys being picked up (including the 100lb American Bulldog, he doesn't exactly get picked up often but he would like to). I'm not saying rough handling or mishandling by children can't make a dog fearful but consistent socialization with children is what makes a dog good with kids and dogs read a lot from their owners. 

I will repeat for the dozenth time that my reaction to this thread was more about the OP's overall bad attitude than anything. She has said repeatedly that she doesn't even like well behaved children to approach her and ask to pet her dog. That to me says that her perception of what actually went down may have been different than the reality. It is your perogative to walk down a street and not be approached, I don't necessarily want to greet people every time I'm out walking my dog, but if I never want anyone to approach me and walk around hating kids it does make me perceive situations differently than some one who is more positive about children. A parent right behind their child about to scoop him/her up vs a parent 15ft away, totally different scenario and none of us were there to know what really happened. All of our anecdotes are just that, our experiences, we can't assume that those things are what happened in this case. I can say that when I let my kids out to play in a park I try to give them freedom to actually play (when they were toddlers, they are half grown now and get far more freedom). I keep my eyes open but assuming I didn't see a dog that they might be interested in running towards I might miss catching them before they got there. I would apologize profusely and have to make the decision on how far away to move in the hopes that he wouldn't head back towards the doggy. Is child particularly interested in the dog or is it a fleeting fancy and easily redirected towards a leaf, tree, or patch of grass for romping in? Do I need to move across the park completely to avoid incident or can we move back to where we started because my child will forget all about the dog? We have no idea what went through the mother's mind or if the child had ever been interested in dogs before (maybe he is typically easily redirected to other things or forgets quickly). Maybe she really was a hands reach away and the OP is just very jumpy/cranky. That was my point the whole time.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Arya of House Stark said:


> So, I'm absolutely seething because the dog run closest to my house is closed until Fall 2014 for "renovations." There's another one further down in my Brooklyn neighborhood, but from what I'm hearing, they're closing it next weekend to start renovating it as well, which is very irresponsible of the Parks Department and inconvenient for local dog owners. Kind of hope they make a stink, but I doubt it'd do anything. :/
> 
> Anyway, due to the piss-poor planning skills of the Parks Department, I've been taking Zoe on the weekends to a local park that allows dogs off-leash. Zoe's recall isn't that great yet so we just walk around and my boyfriend and I decided to start some long-line work per the recommendation of a few friends and the dog trainer I used. I've seen quite a few people training their dogs there and figured it was a good way to help proof her commands.
> 
> ...


This is the OPs post again, with some parts bolded for emphasis. She did everything a good dog owner should have done, she told the child (and the mother) that her dog was a puppy and they were working with her, they even moved further away to the other end of the park!

As the owner of a Dog who very much resembles a cute, fluffy stuffed animal, this is very infuriating to hear people who think that this kind of behavior from a child or parent is ok because it's not and I will make sure they KNOW it's not. 

I know how most parents are ... Their kids can do no wrong and if my dog so much as scratches their little _darling_ and boom! My dog is labeled an "aggressive" dog and is taken away.

No ... No I don't think so. Sorry but I have said it before and I will say it til I die ... I am not a petting zoo, I don't owe the public anything. I would have the same reaction to anyone messing with my dogs, adult, kid, animal etc ... It is my obligation to protect them! 

Your dog might be ok and be able to voice back from being dropped , having their hair/legs/ tail/ ears pulled but OTHER DOGS ARE NOT YOUR DOG! And cattle dogs (along with other breeds like Jack Russell terriers) are not keen on tolerating "demasculating" treatment from anyone or anything. 

I ask you this, would you rather me tell them off, or my dog (which I would neve let them do because I love them)? Because if I don't ... They will.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

There's a reason I don't go to dog parks or areas where dogs are allowed off leash. It's because going there knowingly with two dogs that are uncomfortable with strange dogs is a set up for disaster. If you're so worried about your dog biting off a kid's face....why would you think it's a great idea to bring them to a busy park with children running around? At that point, it's you setting your dog up for failure, not the child or even the parent. Responsibility goes both ways. You are every bit as responsible for your dog, as the parent is for their kid. It's not okay for parents to not watch their kids or allow them to bother people, but kids are usually at parks to run and play. Young kids don't always understand even when a parent is telling them to stop, and kids don't require leashes.

The immaturity of yelling at a strange two year old for approaching you aside, it's a privilege, not a right for dogs to be allowed at public parks, and even more so for them to be allowed off leash. If you don't want to be bothered by kids, or fear how your dog is going to act, move away or leave and go elsewhere. 

And finally, guess what, if your dog does indeed bite a child, no matter how unruly, the LAW isn't going to give a damn about the reasons or the feelings of the dog. People bitch when parents bring their kids to dog parks. Don't bring your dog to a busy public park with kids if they are a risk to other people.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Remaru said:


> I'm going to admit that several have probably been dropped by a child, you can take away my good dog owner card. Heck I think I've probably dropped several of my dogs, I'm not perfect and they get squirmy as puppies. None of them are afraid of me, my husband or my kids. They don't cower in fear when they see strange children and to this day every one of them still enjoys being picked up (including the 100lb American Bulldog, he doesn't exactly get picked up often but he would like to). I'm not saying rough handling or mishandling by children can't make a dog fearful but consistent socialization with children is what makes a dog good with kids and dogs read a lot from their owners.


I'm kind of fascinated by the idea of a dog developing a lifelong violent reaction based on one incident. If that's the case my old dog should really be seriously averse to a whole list of things...elderly people, horses, moose, riding in the car, recliner chairs...she's not, because she has a lifetime of good and neutral experiences to override the bad one. Probably the closest she came to developing a phobic reaction based on a single incident was to car riding; getting her back into the car after our bad car accident was a wrench, but I did it anyway, and took her on daily boring car rides until she got over it and the fear behaviors extinguished, because riding pleasantly in the car is something I need my dogs to be able to do. Being safe around kids is also something I need my dogs to do. Hence socialization.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

If the dog is on leash (which they always are) then I AM following the rules! It's not like I go to a random public park and plunk myself down in the busiest part of the park, in fact if the park is too busy that there isn't a place I can go off alone then I will drive to one that isn't so busy. 

I can't speak for all people but I do my part. So I think I have a right to say leave me alone when I am trying to mind my own business. I have a right to protect my property and if that means being socially taboo them so be it.

Let me out it this way, I was at a restaurant and we pulled up next to a Ferrari. People were walking by and looking at the car, even commenting and taking pictures. Now I am sure the owner would be livid and make quite a scene if someone started putting their hands all over it's newly wade surface and laying on it for pictures.

So why the heck should it be any different for me to say the same about my dog who is a living creature with feelings!


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

You are making this about you, that is the problem. Your experiences, what you would do, and on and on and on. You were not there, this is not your experience, you have no idea. Moving closer to the trees does not equal moving all the way across the park unless it was a very very small park. I have no idea, maybe the woman really wasn't supervising her child at all, or maybe the OP who admits over and over again to not liking children and being rude to even polite children saw it that way but the fact is we don't know because we weren't there. It has nothing to do with any situation that you have ever been in. I could tell you the most awful stories about pet owners in my area. Should I start a thread about it and about how awful dog owners are? Do you know I had to quit volunteering with 4 different rescues when I had my first son? Apparently you can't love dogs and have kids. They told me to come back when he was an adult and I "had time for dogs again." The attitude just amazes me. 

So lets see, there is the man in my neighborhood who thinks it is completely acceptable to let his two human aggressive labs run loose (like refuses to fix his fence so they just get out and run). There is the family whose house backs up against the school playground who have two small mixed breed dogs that they refuse to spay/neuter who have a litter of puppies at least once a year and get loose into the playground. Luckily the puppies are friendly but mom is not. There is the golden retriever that was kept in a yard with a 3ft chain link fence and attacked to women jogging on the bike trail plus my 2 year old playing on the playground (he never even saw the dog coming, didn't try to approach it at all, luckily Duke was with us and scared it off) before AC caught it. It had a bite history, its owner knew it was aggressive and had been told he needed to contain his dog but didn't bother. Then there are the people who like to bring their obviously aggressive dogs to the playground, not the park the actual playground like where kids play, and sit around the edge while kids play. The best ones are the ones who obviously don't recognize that their dogs are aggressive so when kids ask to pet their dogs they say yes until the dog jumps up and makes a grab at the kid who runs away crying. So should I post about how irresponsible dog owners are? These are just a few, I have a lot of really bad dog owners who live near me. Quite a few who just don't care and let their dogs do whatever (you know the put the dog in the yard and maybe remember to feed it sort). Or I could tell you about how awful people treat special needs children, it is really appalling. Seriously, like they are somewhere below scum. I'm sure you have this idea in your head that I am this permissive parent, I'm actually incredibly strict. I have OCD among several other issues and I am in control at all times (with my kids and the dogs). I just believe in giving the benefit of the doubt and the OP's post rubbed me the wrong way as a mother. I have been treated like crap before because my kids were acting out, it sucks.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I am not making this about me, just do a forum search and you will find plenty of threads ranting about negligent dog owners as well, and a bunch of people saying their experiences about the topic so why is this any different? Because it off d's you so that there are people out there who don't like kids? Yes, yes there are and I am one of them and no I don't want to deal with your kid who is acting out. 

The rescue I got buddy from doesn't adopt to families with small kids either because this breed is a hard herding breed. I didn't not intend to make this about me but since you singled me out then I will. I try to mind my own business and not annoy people with my dog so I appreciate the same treatment in return.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It is funny that many who are defending being rude to strangers are those who get snitty when they think other people are being rude to them .

I have zero problem with someone saying to a baby/little kid "STOP. Don't come any closer. Where's your mommy? Go find your mommy". Under, oh, pretty much any circumstance in which Mommy is not visible. I am not sure this is the kind of "yelling" some people are talking about though :/.

My dad snagged a toddler trying to escape from the hardware store the other day. I told him he probably shouldn't have picked up the kid (he is not respectable looking and I can see things going wrong fast)---maybe just tell the clerk about it---but the mother was suitably grateful and didn't get him arrested at least .


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

It does not bother me that there are people in the world who don't like kids, assuming they don't go out of their way to be rude about it. Try to keep in mind that kids grow up to be adults, dogs do not. I don't happen to actually like people in general, don't have a whole lot of patience for them but I try to be civil and give the benefit of the doubt when I can unless they come at me with a bad attitude and then you are going to get as good as you give, maybe worse. I'm not actually known for my lovely personality but I can be the most helpful person around if you are nice to me. Again, my children are not running around bothering people, I'm incredibly strict. I have no idea what may or may not be offensive to some one, it is always possible that when one of them goes up to some one and politely asks to pet their dog it is "annoying" I guess I'll just have to live with that. My oldest son apparently horribly offended a woman when he was 3 because he did not want to pet her puppy. People get offended over really stupid stuff sometimes. But in general they are well behaved because I am strict. I just try not to go out of my way to be offended and to give people the benefit of the doubt. I'm raising two kids with special needs, they have bad days, them melting down in a store isn't going to hurt you at all and they really can't help it. But this isn't about my kids. There are people in the world who don't like dogs, I try not to be offended by that either. I would personally rather deal with a child than an adult, children learn faster and aren't as entrenched in their prejudices. 

I didn't say they wouldn't adopt to me because I had a child, I said I had to stop volunteering with them. This was not a breed specific rescue either, just a general all breed/no kill rescue that I had been volunteering with for years. 4 different rescues and people I thought were my friends who looked at me like I was garbage because I was now a "breeder" (not breeding dogs, derogatory term for people who have kids really lovely). I was told I could come back when my child was at least 16 and I had time for dogs in my life again. They were of the opinion that you should not own dogs while you have children in your home, an opinion I did not know about while I was volunteering with them. I volunteer with the local Humane Society, something I've done since I was 10 and another smaller rescue.

Willowy: I'm always torn on the picking up toddlers thing. I think if they are heading into the road you gotta do something but I hate to do something to startle them and start them crying. My last neighbor was really less than stellar at monitoring her kids (and her dog) and I frequently found both her toddler and her little dog running loose in the park across from her house. I usually asked him to hold my hand to go home to find mama. I just didn't feel comfortable running the risk of picking him up and setting him to screaming even though I "look like a mom". At the same time if I find a toddler alone in store who is crying and I can't get them to follow me or hold my hand my only option is to pick them up.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> It is funny that many who are defending being rude to strangers are those who get snitty when they think other people are being rude to them .
> 
> I have zero problem with someone saying to a baby/little kid "STOP. Don't come any closer. Where's your mommy? Go find your mommy". Under, oh, pretty much any circumstance in which Mommy is not visible. I am not sure this is the kind of "yelling" some people are talking about though :/.
> 
> My dad snagged a toddler trying to escape from the hardware store the other day. I told him he probably shouldn't have picked up the kid (he is not respectable looking and I can see things going wrong fast)---maybe just tell the clerk about it---but the mother was suitably grateful and didn't get him arrested at least .


I have caught an autistic child running out of a walmart one time and handed him back to his very greatful mother. 
I am not rude either until someone is rude to me first, and someone letting their kid run up to a strange dog without asking is rude. But I guess I project a "stay away" vibe because I really don't have to deal with it that often.

I do find it interesting that you would be worried about someone calling the cops on your father because he "looks funny"? 

For the record, I only find whiny, bratty, screaming kids annoying. Quiet, helpful, respectful kids, no.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I do find it interesting that you would be worried about someone calling the cops on your father because he "looks funny"?


LOL, it's a bit beyond looking "funny" . He only cuts his hair once a year at the beginning of summer, and he has not had his yearly "shearing" yet. His hair is wavy and sticks out all over his head like Doc Brown in Back to the Future. Actually he looks a lot like Doc Brown altogether. He wears a (weird) hat but his hair sticks out under it. He only shaves once a week on Monday morning, and if he was at the hardware store it was most likely the weekend so he was probably looking pretty scruffy. He saves his "good clothes" for work and wears holey/stained clothes on weekends. He has scars on his face from having skin cancers removed. He is odd in his mannerisms and speech. He's just a character in general. He's not the kind of person you'd tell your kids to look for if they got lost (usually you tell them to look for a mom with kids). In short, he is not a guy who should be picking up random toddlers because someone might think the wrong thing just because of looks. Men in general need to be careful but odd men especially. He would never ever harm a child but many people do tend to be suspicious of those who look odd and act odd. But at least this time it worked out well.



> For the record, I only find whiny, bratty, screaming kids annoying. Quiet, helpful, respectful kids, no


Same kids, different circumstances .


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't think the child should have run up to the dog, I just think that yelling AT the two year old wasn't necessary.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

grab said:


> I don't think the child should have run up to the dog, I just think that yelling AT the two year old wasn't necessary.


This exactly!


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

grab said:


> I don't think the child should have run up to the dog, I just think that yelling AT the two year old wasn't necessary.


Yep. That's all it started out as was people giving honest opinions on THIS situation and most said pretty much this.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Well, you guys can worry about being politically correct and not offending others. Whilenin more concerned about making sure my dogs don't end up with a bite history.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Makes me wonder how everyone would feel if the OP had kept allowing that 2yr old to startle her dog and it got bit; "You should have spoke up! You should have done something to make that stranger's child stop; It's your duty to protect your dog, and keep it from biting someone........."

Everyone is crucifying her for yelling at the 2yr old... Really? It's not like the child had merely walked past her and stuck his tongue out at her... I have dogs that very well would snap at a child, and being at such a height disadvantage, it'd be right in the child's face. If yelling at a stranger's 2yr old gets the attention of the mother, so be it. If the mother was doing HER parenting right it wouldn't have come to that. I'm not risking my dogs injuring someone's child, regardless if it's my dogs instigating it or not.

I read a couple posts that implied she was over-exaggerating this event b/c she clearly doesn't like children... Let me ask- WTF is your point if that's your argument?? I feel those that like children are more inclined to let bad behavior slide. It works both ways...

Heaven forbid we walk away w/ the moral of this OP's story; Watch your dogs, watch your children; Mind yourself and no one else.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I keep wondering what the parents would do if the dog owners ran up to the kids out of no where and picked them up squeezing and hugging on them  "someone might get shot"


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

I guess the OP painted a different perspective for myself and a few others than it did most of you. It didn't sound like the mom was letting her kid run to the dog purposely. It sounded like, to me, that a mom was letting her 2 year old run off some energy and the baby saw a dog, and started to go that direction. It didn't sound like mom was off getting a manicure and had no clue where her child was... it sounded like mom was running right behind the kid and would never have let the baby actually make contact with the dog. Maybe I've read it all wrong, but whatever. None of us, aside from OP, were there to know the situation. I still don't think yelling at a baby really solves the situation. Lots of people are posting about how they yelled at a kid who unexpectedly hugged or touched their dog... which is fine because that situation is different. Looking down and realizing a kid is latched on to your dog is totally different then a kid approaching your dog with his mom running after him to stop him. 

On the flip side, if this were a mom posting on my parenting board about a dog running up to her and her child, with owner not far behind and apologizing, and they were at an off leash friendly dog-human park.... most of the responses would be telling the mom to get a grip because that's the risk you take when you take your kid to a park that allows off leash dogs. Most of these women aren't dog savvy or even tolerant, but they know enough to realize when you go to a place that fully allows both, there's chances you take.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

PatriciafromCO said:


> I keep wondering what the parents would do if the dog owners ran up to the kids out of no where and picked them up squeezing and hugging on them  "someone might get shot"


Seriously? Who said it was ok for a kid to pick up a dog or hug them? That's not even what happened in this situation at all.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

grab said:


> I don't think the child should have run up to the dog, I just think that yelling AT the two year old wasn't necessary.


Well then what is your suggestion to intercept/stop a kid who has ignored body blocking and a non-yelling request not to pet your dog? Because I'm pretty sure if I touch or pick up someone else's kids there's gonna be a lot bigger sh*tstorm than if I yell I SAID NO to finally get their attention. 

I wonder if the confusion/disconnect is... I'm not talking about yelling at a kid _after the fact_. Like, "reaming them out" once it's all over. I just am not afraid to yell at them to get them to stop if "nicer" measures don't work and that's what it takes to finally get their attention. And it just does not compute to me that that's such an evil, awful thing to do.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> Seriously? Who said it was ok for a kid to pick up a dog or hug them? That's not even what happened in this situation at all.


no but someone earlier (a few pages earlier) did post this happening to their dog and some people did tell her to just suck it up (not exact words)


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Well then what is your suggestion to intercept/stop a kid who has ignored body blocking and a non-yelling request not to pet your dog? Because I'm pretty sure if I touch or pick up someone else's kids there's gonna be a lot bigger sh*tstorm than if I yell I SAID NO to finally get their attention.
> 
> I wonder if the confusion/disconnect is... I'm not talking about yelling at a kid _after the fact_. Like, "reaming them out" once it's all over. I just am not afraid to yell at them to get them to stop if "nicer" measures don't work and that's what it takes to finally get their attention. And it just does not compute to me that that's such an evil, awful thing to do.


I know! I know I always say that I dislike kids, but I would feel horrible if a child got disfigured rcsuse I was too afraid of what people would think to stop them. There are those who are making it sound like people are going around screaming at random children like lunatics! Where it really not a scream, it's more of a "raised gruff voice".


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Flaming said:


> no but someone earlier (a few pages earlier) did post this happening to their dog and some people did tell her to just suck it up (not exact words)


Yeah, pretty sure I'm missing where anyone said that. No where in this entire thread has anyone said it's ok for kids to hug/squeeze/poke/hit/kiss/touch a random dog.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree with the OP because first off the child ran towards the dog twice after nicely telling the child the first time not to run towards her dog, there shouldn't have been a second time. Also the child is 2 it's not like it's going to remember they got yelled at by some stranger one day. Seriously people the child is fine, it's not like she spanked the child or something. I would rather yell at a child than having a dog bite the child so I don't understand why this is even getting out of control like this. If I had a 2 year old and they ran off from me and ran towards the dog and the stranger yelled at them I would've said that's what you get for running towards a dog. Again the child is NOT going to even remember this, it's not damaging their psyche or anything like that.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> Yeah, pretty sure I'm missing where anyone said that. No where in this entire thread has anyone said it's ok for kids to hug/squeeze/poke/hit/kiss/touch a random dog.


Exactly. That, I would have a problem with. And I'm fairly sure most parents who knowingly bring their children to a park with dogs off leash would not be upset if a dog came near their child. Again, if the dog was running up snarling and snapping at the air, yeah I'd yell. Same if the child was running around throwing rocks or threatening to hit my dog. But not because a kid came NEAR my freaking dog.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Eenypup said:


> Exactly. That, I would have a problem with. And I'm fairly sure most parents who knowingly bring their children to a park with dogs off leash would not be upset if a dog came near their child. Again, if the dog was running up snarling and snapping at the air, yeah I'd yell. Same if the child was running around throwing rocks or threatening to hit my dog. But not because a kid came NEAR my freaking dog.


That's basically how I feel. No one here is acting like kids have more rights than dogs or whatever, just that it's a bit overkill to yell at a 2 year old for coming near your dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think we can all agree that we all want to keep dog and kids safe. It's the way to go about it that we disagree with. With older kids a "no, or stop! She is not friendly!" Or "if you want to get bitten then keep it up." But with smaller kids who clearly aren't stopping, I have found that a gruff voice, sometimes accompanied by clapping my hands gets their attention and makes them stop long enough for the parent to catch them.

FWIW I have never had a parent who was angry with me using my "command voice" or clapping to get a child's attention, quite the contrary, most profusely apologized and thanked me for my quick thinking that allowed them the chance to catch up.

@ willowy I love the crazy doctor from back to the future ... Just saying


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> That's basically how I feel. No one here is acting like kids have more rights than dogs or whatever, just that it's a bit overkill to yell at a 2 year old for coming near your dog.


Again, since it seems to be getting either missed or ignored... what is your suggestion, then, besides I SAID NO/NO THANK YOU/DON'T PET HIM for a 2 year old running at your dog who you have already body blocked and asked/told to stop without yelling, and s/he is still coming? 

Just lump it, apparently?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

The op was not body blocking her dog and had not tried anything else. She went straight to "I told you to leave me alone" which is a really weird thing to say to a 2 year old honestly. A simple "stop" while putting your dog behind you would probably have worked since in this particular situation mom was right behind the child and ready to pick child up and take him away. If you are dealing with a child with no parent in sight clearly you are going to need more. Is your dog friendly? Are you in a teaching mood? Personally my dogs like kids and I don't mind having the "doggy etiquette" discussion with kids, even little ones. So I get down on their level and discuss how best to approach a dog, how to pet ect. If my dog weren't child friendly a simple "stop" with hand out in front in a commanding but not snappish voice with my dog behind me will usually do. If the child doesn't stop (most toddlers usually will it is the preschoolers you gotta watch for) you redirect their attention "where is mom?" or "does you mommy know where you are?" most will look at you because they know they aren't supposed to be out without mom. It almost always works. You can say something like "we don't run up to strange dogs" if you want but a toddler won't necessarily listen/understand. That is what I would normally do. That is how I always rounded up my neighbors toddler when he was running loose (it happened far more often than it should have).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not asking about the OPs situation. I'm asking about a situation I asked about, since it's apparently never ok to yell at a child then what do you all suggest instead in the scenario I described?


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Remaru said:


> The op was not body blocking her dog and had not tried anything else. She went straight to "I told you to leave me alone" which is a really weird thing to say to a 2 year old honestly.


 WRONG!!! the OP DID body block her dog and put the dog behind her BOTH times the child ran up to the dog and she went straight to I said "NO" because she had already said it once, to be honest if you reread what the original post said then you would've seen that the OP did do these things


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh for some strange reason I had the impression that the OP screamed a child like 1/4 mile away.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

kcomstoc said:


> Again the child is NOT going to even remember this, it's not damaging their psyche or anything like that.


I don't know about that. . .I remember stuff from when I was 2. I clearly remember some modeling agency dude offering to buy me a treat if I would sing the ABC song for him (LOL, he decided I wasn't modeling material when I wouldn't even talk to him, I think), and my mom was pregnant at the time so I had to be under 2 years, 4 months (when my brother was born). I'll even say I remember some stuff that probably damaged my psyche . Kids aren't stupid; they're just undeveloped. Plus, early life experiences, whether you have conscious memories or not, shape your brain chemistry and personality. So, I mean, don't count on a baby not remembering or not being affected by stuff. 

But anyway, no, a one-time event like that shouldn't be too scarring.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Again, since it seems to be getting either missed or ignored... what is your suggestion, then, besides I SAID NO/NO THANK YOU/DON'T PET HIM for a 2 year old running at your dog who you have already body blocked and asked/told to stop without yelling, and s/he is still coming?
> 
> Just lump it, apparently?


I already said (err, well I quoted someone who had a suggestion I agreed with) what I'd do. Getting down on a kids level and either explaining how to properly approach a dog and if your dog would be ok with it letting kid pet the dog, or if the dog is not ok with being petted (or heck, even if you don't want to deal with it at all), you can tell the kid that the dog is scared of kids. If you're not willing/can't do that, then why bother taking your dog to a place where you know kids, who are attracted to dogs, are going to be running around?


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I don't know about that. . .I remember stuff from when I was 2. I clearly remember some modeling agency dude offering to buy me a treat if I would sing the ABC song for him (LOL, he decided I wasn't modeling material when I wouldn't even talk to him, I think), and my mom was pregnant at the time so I had to be under 2 years, 4 months (when my brother was born). I'll even say I remember some stuff that probably damaged my psyche . Kids aren't stupid; they're just undeveloped. Plus, early life experiences, whether you have conscious memories or not, shape your brain chemistry and personality. So, I mean, don't count on a baby not remembering or not being affected by stuff.
> 
> But anyway, no, a one-time event like that shouldn't be too scarring.


 Just something I found

“The hippocampus matures slowly and probably doesn’t reach any reasonable maturity until we’re 3 or 4,” says Dr. Eric Kandel, Kavli professor and director of the Kavli Institute for Brain Science at Columbia University and senior investigator at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. “While 2- and 3-year-olds can remember things for a short time, the hippocampus is required for long-term storage of those memories.”
Read more at http://www.zmescience.com/research/why-we-cant-remember-before-age-3-05435/#GkDjQ0VLUg8skXyX.99


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

The OP doesn't imply that she put her dog behind her the second time but I don't know that it really matters. She also states many times that her dog is friendly and she really just doesn't like kids, even friendly ones.

I don't know if she was yelling before the kid ever got to her or not, it does seem to imply that she was which makes what she was yelling even odder to be honest. Just "stop" probably would have been best. Or "Get your Child" to the mom? We weren't there so hard to say.

How old was the child in your situation. I talk to kids differently depending on age. Like I said with a toddler my go to is almost always "stop" in a firm voice with my hand out and my dog behind me (this assumes my dog is not friendly or I'm not up for doggy meeting time). If that does not stop them I'm going to try to buy time or distract them by saying "where is your mommy", this works even better if you don't know where their parent is/the parent is being truly irresponsible because you may get a child to lead you straight to their parent. At the very least many toddlers will lose interest at that point because they may realize that they are lost. It does have the draw back of possibly causing crying (I've seen that happen when the child realized they had no idea where mom was). With a preschooler or older child you can be far more firm and use bigger words because they should certainly know better and be better able to understand what you are saying. A toddler just doesn't have the processing speed of an older child nor the ability to inhibit their actions. A five year old should know better and they should listen when you tell them something. So if a 5 year old charges at your dog you should be able to simply say "stop, my dog doesn't like kids" and that should be all you need to say. If he/she keeps coming feel free to get more vocal about it, the only reason a 5 year old should be acting that was is because some one failed to teach them better. They are old enough to understand you and to control their impulses (barring special needs).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> I already said (err, well I quoted someone who had a suggestion I agreed with) what I'd do. Getting down on a kids level and either explaining how to properly approach a dog and if your dog would be ok with it letting kid pet the dog, or if the dog is not ok with being petted (or heck, even if you don't want to deal with it at all), you can tell the kid that the dog is scared of kids. If you're not willing/can't do that, then why bother taking your dog to a place where you know kids, who are attracted to dogs, are going to be running around?


No, you didn't. After a kid ignores all the "nice" things and STILL grabs for your dog/runs at your dog, THEN what do you do?

What *I* do is yell I SAID STOP or something like that because I'm a terrible person. What I'm asking is, what do the not-terrible people do? Just give up and let the kid grab your dog?

ETA: Whether I'm willing to do anything or not or whether I should take my dog anywhere in particular really has nothing to do with it and is a deflection of my question.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

kcomstoc said:


> Just something I found
> 
> “The hippocampus matures slowly and probably doesn’t reach any reasonable maturity until we’re 3 or 4,” says Dr. Eric Kandel, Kavli professor and director of the Kavli Institute for Brain Science at Columbia University and senior investigator at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute. “While 2- and 3-year-olds can remember things for a short time, the hippocampus is required for long-term storage of those memories.”
> Read more at http://www.zmescience.com/research/why-we-cant-remember-before-age-3-05435/#GkDjQ0VLUg8skXyX.99


 Very interesting. I have a ton of memories that I think are from when I was younger than that (based on memories of wearing diapers, etc.) but of course memories aren't time-stamped . But that one I clearly remember my mother being visibly pregnant so it sort of is time-stamped, being that she wasn't pregnant all that often . Hmm. I either had an early-developing hippocampus or some other way to store memories. I did read somewhere that you don't have conscious memories until you have sufficient language to self-narrate, and I was an early talker. Maybe that's why. On a related note, look up the brain-chemistry effects of early life experience sometime, it's quite fascinating.

I don't really know what I'd do if a kid kept advancing even after being told to go find his mommy. Obviously something would have to be done, and if yelling worked I suppose that's really all you could do.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Remaru said:


> She also states many times that her dog is friendly and she really just doesn't like kids, even friendly ones.


I've seen this point brought up many times against the OP so I would like to address it; frankly, whether she likes kids or not doesn't change anything to the situation. She was in a position where she had a dog to protect and did whatever she could to prevent a possible accident (and having a friendly dog doesn't prevent accidents, because a friendly dog could well knock over a small child by jumping up). I really don't see what else she could have done. Some young kids really don't listen and WILL keep harassing your dog if you don't get harsh; I know it because I've experienced it; in fact, even my shouting and trying to bodyblock the child in question didn't stop him from wanting to grab my clearly nervous dog, and the mum was nowhere in sight when it happened. He literally kept running up to my dog for SEVERAL MINUTES. So no, kneeling down and having a calm conversation isn't always an option.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

sassafras said:


> No, you didn't. After a kid ignores all the "nice" things and STILL grabs for your dog/runs at your dog, THEN what do you do?
> 
> What *I* do is yell I SAID STOP or something like that because I'm a terrible person. What I'm asking is, what do the not-terrible people do? Just give up and let the kid grab your dog?
> 
> ETA: Whether I'm willing to do anything or not or whether I should take my dog anywhere in particular really has nothing to do with it and is a deflection of my question.


What do you want us to say? That it's ok to yell at the kid? That your dog should tolerate grubby little hands all over him? 

I'd do the "nice" things as much as I had to if a kid's just coming near my dog. That's what *I'd * do in that situation straight up.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Whistlejacket said:


> I've seen this point brought up many times against the OP so I would like to address it; frankly, whether she likes kids or not doesn't change anything to the situation. She was in a position where she had a dog to protect and did whatever she could to prevent a possible accident (and having a friendly dog doesn't prevent accidents, because a friendly dog could well knock over a small child by jumping up). I really don't see what else she could have done. Some young kids really don't listen and WILL keep harassing your dog if you don't get harsh; I know it because I've experienced it; in fact, even my shouting and trying to bodyblock the child in question didn't stop him from wanting to grab my clearly nervous dog, and the mum was nowhere in sight when it happened. He literally kept running up to my dog for SEVERAL MINUTES. So no, kneeling down and having a calm conversation isn't always an option.


 Thank you, this is the point that needed to be said


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> What do you want us to say? That it's ok to yell at the kid? That your dog should tolerate grubby little hands all over him?


I don't "want" you to say anything. I'm asking you, since my solution has been widely criticized and is apparently not acceptable, to provide a better one for me. 



> I'd do the "nice" things as much as I had to if a kid's just coming near my dog. That's what *I'd * do in that situation straight up.


You're still not answering. You do all the "nice" things and _the kid doesn't stop_ trying to pet or grab your dog. Then what? 

I'm not sure why this is so hard to answer?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Whistlejacket said:


> I've seen this point brought up many times against the OP so I would like to address it; frankly, whether she likes kids or not doesn't change anything to the situation. She was in a position where she had a dog to protect and did whatever she could to prevent a possible accident (and having a friendly dog doesn't prevent accidents, because a friendly dog could well knock over a small child by jumping up). I really don't see what else she could have done. Some young kids really don't listen and WILL keep harassing your dog if you don't get harsh; I know it because I've experienced it; in fact, even my shouting and trying to bodyblock the child in question didn't stop him from wanting to grab my clearly nervous dog, and the mum was nowhere in sight when it happened. He literally kept running up to my dog for SEVERAL MINUTES. So no, kneeling down and having a calm conversation isn't always an option.


No it changes very much how she perceives the situation. Say I'm afraid of dogs (I have a friend who is), suddenly even very well behaved dogs, or moderately well behaved dogs, look threatening walking through a park. A dog that gets sort of close to me is very close in my perception. I've walked through a park with my friend and a dog that is easily 10ft from us is too close to him and he starts shouting "get your dog away from me" when the dog is no where close and not even looking at him. That is my point. You were not there, I was not there. What happened with the child in your situation, and what I would have done with my own kids or dogs is not what happened in the OP's situation but the fact that she doesn't like kids does change how she perceives the situation. You have no idea if the child was 5ft from her, 20ft from her or actually touching her dog. We all have our biases it is not helpful to pretend that they don't effect how we view a situation.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeaaaah, I'd yell at the kid. Sorry. And by yell, I mean shouting "Hey, STOP!" very firmlyI guess I don't consider that acting like a crazy person. Screaming and flailing and shouting about devil spawn and evil children and calling the kid names? Sure. But I don't really get that as what's going on. In my head, it's more like the first option.

My dog LOVES KIDS. My dog loves all people. My dog loves all animals. My dog loves sticks and rocks and crunchy leaves and literally everything on the planet. I have not found a single thing or person that she does not want to wiggle all over and lick to death. My dog is also really large, especially compared to a toddler. 

I love letting kids pet her WHEN THEY ASK. But I really REALLY don't like kids running at her. Because just having her lick them can knock them over. Not even jumping or lunging at them or anything. A kid grabbed her once around the neck and she leaned down to lick him (pretty darn gently, I might add) and just that movement was enough that the kid was on his butt the next second. And guess who's 'fault' that was? Well according to mom who came running up, it was my dog's fault and _I_ was the one on the end of some loud tirade.

Honestly, I am not understanding some people here. We all know dogs, we all know that dogs (even completely friendly dogs like mine) CAN nip or bite under a certain set of circumstances. If you have kids, keep a close eye on them. If you have dogs, ditto. A _kid_ isn't the one who's going to potentially be labeled dangerous and euthed if the situation goes in a wrong direction, so frankly, I don't blame dog owners for being cautious and shouting at a kid to stop, especially if it isn't the first time.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Remaru said:


> No it changes very much how she perceives the situation. Say I'm afraid of dogs (I have a friend who is), suddenly even very well behaved dogs, or moderately well behaved dogs, look threatening walking through a park. A dog that gets sort of close to me is very close in my perception. I've walked through a park with my friend and a dog that is easily 10ft from us is too close to him and he starts shouting "get your dog away from me" when the dog is no where close and not even looking at him. That is my point. You were not there, I was not there. What happened with the child in your situation, and what I would have done with my own kids or dogs is not what happened in the OP's situation but the fact that she doesn't like kids does change how she perceives the situation. You have no idea if the child was 5ft from her, 20ft from her or actually touching her dog. We all have our biases it is not helpful to pretend that they don't effect how we view a situation.


Of course, we have no way to know how far away the kid was when she thought it necessary to shout at him (although considering that she felt the need to rant about it on a forum, I believe her when she says he was "too close"). But still, what would you do in a situation where you were harassed - and yes, I mean harassed, because some children won't take a nice "no" (or two... or three... or twelve) for an answer, by a child while you also have a dog whose reactions you need to watch, on a lead? As I said, sometimes, trying to be patient and understanding just doesn't work. My priority in that kind of situation is always my dog, because it's my ROLE to protect my dog. It's not my role to educate other people's kids. I may (and do) try to, but in a situation like this, I'll just do whatever I have to do to protect my dog, and if it means yelling, then so be it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Remaru said:


> No it changes very much how she perceives the situation. Say I'm afraid of dogs (I have a friend who is), suddenly even very well behaved dogs, or moderately well behaved dogs, look threatening walking through a park. A dog that gets sort of close to me is very close in my perception. I've walked through a park with my friend and a dog that is easily 10ft from us is too close to him and he starts shouting "get your dog away from me" when the dog is no where close and not even looking at him. That is my point. You were not there, I was not there. What happened with the child in your situation, and what I would have done with my own kids or dogs is not what happened in the OP's situation but the fact that she doesn't like kids does change how she perceives the situation. You have no idea if the child was 5ft from her, 20ft from her or actually touching her dog. We all have our biases it is not helpful to pretend that they don't effect how we view a situation.


Well it's clear to say that you weren't there either but you still manage to insert your own opinions and feelings onto the OP. Sorry but I believe because you have kids YOUR judgement is clouded as much as anyone else who doesn't like kids. I don't but even I don't go around screaming and ranting like a lunatic :/. 

I think it boils down to the fact that you don't like people who don't want to be bother by people's kids or by people in general. When I am out I don't bother people who have dogs with them, if they are doing something awesome I will watch and admire, but I won't interrupt their training session. 

I have seen grown adults behave much the same and I think it was due to them not getting the proper instruction as children. I am not nor will I ever be a "no honey, we just can't do that!" Kind of person ... Kids have to learn that there are consequences for disobeying an adult ... ANY adult. And of that means having an aversive reaction (I.e. Being "fussed" at) then so be it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Kids have to learn that there are consequences for disobeying an adult ... ANY adult.


I think it is veryveryVERY dangerous to teach your child that they should obey ANY adult. . .


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Whistlejacket said:


> Of course, we have no way to know how far away the kid was when she thought it necessary to shout at him (although considering that she felt the need to rant about it on a forum, I believe her when she says he was "too close"). But still, what would you do in a situation where you were harassed - and yes, I mean harassed, because some children won't take a nice "no" (or two... or three... or twelve) for an answer, by a child while you also have a dog whose reactions you need to watch, on a lead? As I said, sometimes, trying to be patient and understanding just doesn't work. My priority in that kind of situation is always my dog, because it's my ROLE to protect my dog. It's not my role to educate other people's kids. I may (and do) try to, but in a situation like this, I'll just do whatever I have to do to protect my dog, and if it means yelling, then so be it.


Well said!

@willowy please  think about it in context :/ I have an ex military father so I was raised on the importance of listening to adults when they tell you something is not ok or to not do something. I think it's an important rule for kids to learn because they will be listening to non-related adults all their lives (teachers, bosses, law enforcement ... Etc)


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

sassafras said:


> I don't "want" you to say anything. I'm asking you, since my solution has been widely criticized and is apparently not acceptable, to provide a better one for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because I am answering? If some kid keeps approaching my dog and I, I'm going to keep reiterating the proper way to approach a dog. How hard is that to understand? At some point I may talk to the parent (talk, not yell) about each of us keeping it distance, or asking them to distract the kid, but I'm not going to yell at a 2 year old for approaching me and my dog.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Whistlejacket said:


> Of course, we have no way to know how far away the kid was when she thought it necessary to shout at him (although considering that she felt the need to rant about it on a forum, I believe her when she says he was "too close"). But still, what would you do in a situation where you were harassed - and yes, I mean harassed, because some children won't take a nice "no" (or two... or three... or twelve) for an answer, by a child while you also have a dog whose reactions you need to watch, on a lead? As I said, sometimes, trying to be patient and understanding just doesn't work. My priority in that kind of situation is always my dog, because it's my ROLE to protect my dog. It's not my role to educate other people's kids. I may (and do) try to, but in a situation like this, I'll just do whatever I have to do to protect my dog, and if it means yelling, then so be it.


The child approached her twice with a parent close enough that he was retrieved quickly (and never actually touched her dog). I probably would have said "stop, go find your mom" But since mom was right behind him I don't think even that was necessary. In the situation of a child who just won't go away, lessons in dog etiquette are always helpful but if I have a dog who just doesn't like kids (I don't own one, I have 2 kids so my dogs are very child friendly) I would firmly tell the child "no" and probably take my dog and leave. If that wasn't possible I would then tell the child to leave. If the child was very young and there was no parent in sight I think I would be more concerned that a 2 year old had been hanging around me for more than 3 minutes without a parent showing up. I must have some magical power or something though because when I tell a child to do something they pretty much all listen. Years of being a mom? Working in daycare? 

OwnedbyACDs, I don't think you are actually reading my posts. Even in the post you quoted I said that I wasn't there and couldn't say what happened either simply that your own bias changes perception of an event. I've said multiple times that I don't necessarily always want to be bothered when I am out either, I am actually horribly socially awkward (I have social anxiety) and prefer dogs to people. I just happen to like children better than adults, once they make adult with a bad attitude I don't think there is any salvaging them. I don't know how many times I've said I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt and I can almost bet that somewhere there is a post by the mother with a rant about the OP. I will not teach my children to obey any adult, that is dangerous. I am incredibly strict with my children, I think I might have been a bit too strict to be honest as I have kids who feel the need to ask before they do almost anything at 8 and 12, but obeying all adults is just scary.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> Because I am answering? If some kid keeps approaching my dog and I, I'm going to keep reiterating the proper way to approach a dog. How hard is that to understand? At some point I may talk to the parent (talk, not yell) about each of us keeping it distance, or asking them to distract the kid, but I'm not going to yell at a 2 year old for approaching me and my dog.


Even if the kid ignores you, walks around you, and grabs your dog anyway? Really?

Hm. I think I'm going to keep being terrible.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Remaru said:


> The child approached her twice with a parent close enough that he was retrieved quickly (and never actually touched her dog). I probably would have said "stop, go find your mom" But since mom was right behind him I don't think even that was necessary. In the situation of a child who just won't go away, lessons in dog etiquette are always helpful but if I have a dog who just doesn't like kids (I don't own one, I have 2 kids so my dogs are very child friendly) I would firmly tell the child "no" and probably take my dog and leave. If that wasn't possible I would then tell the child to leave. If the child was very young and there was no parent in sight I think I would be more concerned that a 2 year old had been hanging around me for more than 3 minutes without a parent showing up. I must have some magical power or something though because when I tell a child to do something they pretty much all listen. Years of being a mom? Working in daycare?


The OP did mention that the mum wasn't in sight at least the first time it happened... so she really was the only one dealing with the problem.

And again, there are situations where being nice just doesn't work. In that situation I mentioned earlier - I had my dog on a lead and was trying to bodyblock the child, but he would try to grab her anyway, and didn't even stop when I managed to pick her up and walked away - the mum actually was in sight, she was simply too busy chatting on the phone... I did call her but she didn't seem to hear me. So yeah, I did shout at him. It didn't work, but what else was I supposed to do, beside picking him up which would have created an even worse situation? My point being that there are situations where a kid being scarred by my shouting at him or her is the least of my worries. Remember, it's not my role to educate your (general your) kid. I happily will if the kid is calm and respectful, but it's still not my role. You can't fault someone for not doing something they are not supposed to do, so don't blame me for not taking the time to educate your unruly and annoying child.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> @willowy please  think about it in context :/ I have an ex military father so I was raised on the importance of listening to adults when they tell you something is not ok or to not do something. I think it's an important rule for kids to learn because they will be listening to non-related adults all their lives (teachers, bosses, law enforcement ... Etc)


First, kids don't think about it in context. If you teach blind obedience, they will obey adults even if it's not a good thing. That's also how you get adults who end up in federal prison because their boss told them to do something illegal and they obeyed :/. And, hey, my dad is ex-military too! But he is not strict and frankly resented being ordered around his whole life so I guess the attitude he conveyed was a little different . As I said, earlier, I think my mother put too much emphasis on obedience and it has affected my adult life adversely. But even so, I was taught not to obey adults other than my mom, mainly because of her family issues. 

Teaching critical thinking skills would be far more useful than obedience. But of course, teaching kids to look out when someone yells "look out!" is just good survival skills, not obedience .


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Whistlejacket said:


> The OP did mention that the mum wasn't in sight at least the first time it happened... so she really was the only one dealing with the problem.
> 
> And again, there are situations where being nice just doesn't work. In that situation I mentioned earlier - I had my dog on a lead and was trying to bodyblock the child, but he would try to grab her anyway, and didn't even stop when I managed to pick her up and walked away - the mum actually was in sight, she was simply too busy chatting on the phone... I did call her but she didn't seem to hear me. So yeah, I did shout at him. It didn't work, but what else was I supposed to do, beside picking him up which would have created an even worse situation? My point being that there are situations where a kid being scarred by my shouting at him or her is the least of my worries. Remember, it's not my role to educate your (general your) kid. I happily will if the kid is calm and respectful, but it's still not my role. You can't fault someone for not doing something they are not supposed to do, so don't blame me for not taking the time to educate your unruly and annoying child.


I'll be honest in your situation (assuming my dog was not highly reactive and I could manage it) I probably would have taken the child by the hand and marched his butt over to his parent. I don't cope well with parents who are so irresponsible about actually parenting their kids and kids who are obviously in need of some disciplining. I would have then given mom a piece of my mind about juniors behavior. Yelling at the kid probably didn't do much, maybe talking to mom wouldn't have either but at least I would have dealt with the person actually at fault for the whole situation. I'm that kind of person (hubby says there is a word for it but it isn't appropriate in polite conversation).


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Even if the kid ignores you, walks around you, and grabs your dog anyway? Really?
> 
> Hm. I think I'm going to keep being terrible.


First of all, I said at some point I'd talk to the kid's parent... which ignoring me and grabbing at my dog would be that point. Second, I'm not talking about a kid grabbing at my freaking dog! I'm talking about a kid approaching us. No one has ever said that it's ok for a kid to grab at your dog. I don't even know why you've brought it up other than to justify your yelling at a baby.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Well then what is your suggestion to intercept/stop a kid who has ignored body blocking and a non-yelling request not to pet your dog? Because I'm pretty sure if I touch or pick up someone else's kids there's gonna be a lot bigger sh*tstorm than if I yell I SAID NO to finally get their attention.
> 
> I wonder if the confusion/disconnect is... I'm not talking about yelling at a kid _after the fact_. Like, "reaming them out" once it's all over. I just am not afraid to yell at them to get them to stop if "nicer" measures don't work and that's what it takes to finally get their attention. And it just does not compute to me that that's such an evil, awful thing to do.


Whenever little kids are running around, not listening to me, and the mom is not right behind them I have grabbed them by the shoulder or the hand to physically stop them. Then I ask them where their mom is. I've done it several times, works like a charm and most parents are very embarrassed when I walk their kid back to them.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm glad to finally see a few have admitted that playing the nice guy doesn't always work. Whether you're dealing w/ a 2yr old or a 20yr old.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Sarah~ said:


> Whenever little kids are running around, not listening to me, and the mom is not right behind them I have grabbed them by the shoulder or the hand to physically stop them. Then I ask them where their mom is. I've done it several times, works like a charm and most parents are very embarrassed when I walk their kid back to them.


It's ok to grab someone else's kid but not yell NO at them? I'm not being snarky, I'm really asking. It seems like grabbing a kid is going to make a parent react more strongly than yelling.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

yeah whether the person is 2 or 92, if the polite approach doesn't work, I have no qualms about getting nasty.

and it is about context as far as obeying goes, because I was taught that no means no, no matter who its coming from.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I would have been more taken aback if the OP said she'd taken the kid back to mother- Whether politely or by snatching. TOUCHING is just a really invasive maneuver that I don't like to take w/ a stranger's child b/c nowadays parents can't even spank their own kids w/out the threat of CPS stepping in- let alone a sue-happy adult looking for a scapegoat... 

How many times have we all said, that dogs are like toddlers? How many of you have dogs that disobey or ignore you until you get "the bitch voice" as I like to call it? Same w/ toddlers. So the toddler got yelled at, if the toddler remembers that it was a traumatic event, GOOD, then as he grows into a teenager and young adult he'll be more apt to think before he acts...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

deege39 said:


> I would have been more taken aback if the OP said she'd taken the kid back to mother- Whether politely or by snatching. TOUCHING is just a really invasive maneuver that I don't like to take w/ a stranger's child b/c nowadays parents can't even spank their own kids w/out the threat of CPS stepping in- let alone a sue-happy adult looking for a scapegoat...
> 
> How many times have we all said, that dogs are like toddlers? How many of you have dogs that disobey or ignore you until you get "the bitch voice" as I like to call it? Same w/ toddlers. So the toddler got yelled at, if the toddler remembers that it was a traumatic event, GOOD, then as he grows into a teenager and young adult he'll be more apt to think before he acts...


this exactly. I think that touching a strange child would incite more of a problem then "yelling" at them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think (at least for females) that taking a child's hand is fairly innocuous. Picking him up (unless the child is super young), grabbing a shoulder or upper arm. . .could be problematic. I wouldn't like it if it were my kid.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

sassafras said:


> It's ok to grab someone else's kid but not yell NO at them? I'm not being snarky, I'm really asking. It seems like grabbing a kid is going to make a parent react more strongly than yelling.


Depends on why you grabbed the kid. If you are grabbing a kid because you don't think a 3 year old should be allowed to climb a slide alone, yeah that is going to piss me off (no this seriously happened and it annoyed me to no end) but if a child is in imminent danger then grabbing or gently redirecting is far better than just yelling. Not because it is more humane, I don't know if one is really more humane than the other to be honest, but it is sure more effective. You could yell till you are hoarse at a toddler running towards the street, but grabbing him is what is going to ensure he isn't hit by a car. So yes, if a toddler were grabbing at my dog and refused to be dissuaded by my body blocking and telling him "no" in my mommy voice (which is not a yell just a stern voice with eye contact) or a redirect of "where is your mommy" then I would take him by the hand and lead him back to mommy with the explanation that he was trying to grab my dog and that wasn't safe. I don't really care if mom gets angry at that point because I wouldn't do it unless mom was too busy on her cell phone/talking to a friend/whatever to pay attention to junior. If I can see mom and we can make eye contact then I will yell for her first. With a preschooler I'm going to try reasoning first and a child 5 and over will get a stern talking to. As far as teens go, well they should just plain know better and I have honestly never experienced that issue though I get it some with adults.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

sassafras said:


> It's ok to grab someone else's kid but not yell NO at them? I'm not being snarky, I'm really asking. It seems like grabbing a kid is going to make a parent react more strongly than yelling.


No one's actually said anything so far, I think me being female is a huge part of it. I'm not seen as a threat, really. Plus like I said they are usually embarrassed, as they should be. I did have one parent right behind their kid see me stop them by the shoulder and they didn't say anything. I said "whoa slow down there, kid, where's your mom?" He pointed to her and she was already coming up to us and apologizing.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Kids have to learn that there are consequences for disobeying an adult ... ANY adult..


Putting the original post aside, I certainly don't think children need to or should be taught or expected to obey any and all adults. There are sick individuals out there as well as just plain asses. Adults are just as guilty of poor judgement


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

grab said:


> Putting the original post aside, I certainly don't think children need to or should be taught or expected to obey any and all adults. There are sick individuals out there as well as just plain asses. Adults are just as guilty of poor judgement


Agreed completely. Sometimes adults are wrong, or just flat out jerks, and seem to think just because someone is a kid and they are an adult, they have a right to be a jerk to them. I would certainly hope my nieces and nephews would have the courage and self respect to calmly stand up to some self righteous, condescending adult, who was yelling at them despite the fact that they've done nothing wrong. Rather then teaching kids to obey every adult period, they should be taught right from wrong, respect, and to use good judgement.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kids should respect all adults, I was taught to never talk back or argue with an adult, whether they were right or not ... I still do that even today to people who are older then me, even if they are being jerks.

Sorry but kids don't have the judgement skills to say "well this adult is wrong so I won't listen to them" I have been told things by adults that didn't make sense right away but did eventually.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Kids should respect all adults, I was taught to never talk back or argue with an adult, whether they were right or not ... I still do that even today to people who are older then me, even if they are being jerks.
> 
> Sorry but kids don't have the judgement skills to say "well this adult is wrong so I won't listen to them" I have been told things by adults that didn't make sense right away but did eventually.


Well, then that's where we disagree. People should respect people, weather they are 1 or 99. Age doesn't give an adult the right to be a bully, and sometimes adults will do things that are just flat out not right. When my brother was 12, he had a crazy lady attempt to take his skateboard when he was skating in an unused back parking lot of a public park. He had been there many times before, there were no signs stating he couldn't, and he not once been confronted by anyone about it. The lady didn't own it, she wasn't using it, so why she cared is still a mystery. Still, if she had just asked him nicely to go elsewhere, he would of left without arguement. That's respecting adults. Instead, she tried to rip his skateboard out of his hands and take it back to her car and call the cops. My brother knew this was wrong and basically tore it back out of her arms and told her "This is mine, get your hands off it!" She was wrong despite being an adult, he knew she was wrong even then as a 12 year old, and he had the guts to stand up to her. She attempted to grapple for it, but he was faster, ran away from her and ran home. The cops did eventually show up at our house, but he didn't get in trouble, based on witness testimony and the fact there were no signs stating skateboarding wasn't allowed. I was 9 when this happened, and I applauded it then, and I applaud it now as a 31 year old.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Kids should respect all adults, I was taught to never talk back or argue with an adult, whether they were right or not ... I still do that even today to people who are older then me, even if they are being jerks.


 I feel sorry for you . I do not think that is the right way to raise a child. If someone is being a jerk there's no reason anybody should have to tolerate them for any reason, including the very ridiculous reason of them being older. Living longer doesn't automatically make someone special.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

When I was young, if I had any questions about something someone told me I would ask my parents about it. I kind of take offense to that, my parents were good parents :/

Though I have seen kids (probably by fault of their parents) who take advantage of the "not all adult are right" rule.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Well, I kind of take offense to the fact that you think kids are unable to make judgments on whats right and wrong and should just shut up and tolerate everything an adult does to them simply because they are older, even if it makes them incredibly uncomfortable. At some point, children need to stop relying on their parents and need to learn how to trust their own judgments and how they handle situations. Their parents aren't always going to be there to help them or stick up for them.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Do I think children need to be RESPECTFUL and polite to their elders? Yes. Do I think they need to listen to someone just because they're older? No way. Too many bad people out there who take advantage of children. I was raised to respect adults but I didn't listen to all of them by any means.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Kids should respect all adults, I was taught to never talk back or argue with an adult, whether they were right or not ... I still do that even today to people who are older then me, even if they are being jerks.
> 
> Sorry but kids don't have the judgement skills to say "well this adult is wrong so I won't listen to them" I have been told things by adults that didn't make sense right away but did eventually.


I agree that kids should be respectful to adults, but should be taught critical thinking and know when it's reasonable to say "no." For example, there was an elderly man who went to my church when I was child. He'd always ask me to sit on his lap and give him hugs. Sometimes I'd give him hugs, but when it came to sitting on his lap I'd say, "no thank you." Turns out he was a child molester and everything he had told us about his life was a lie. I didn't blindly follow his instructions, I said no. If he had pushed I probably would have gotten upset because my parents taught me to trust my judgement and follow my instincts as a child when it came to obeying adults. Was I wrong? Should I have shut my mouth and hopped on the child molester's lap just because he's my elder? I think there's a line and there are limits.


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

pinksand said:


> I agree that kids should be respectful to adults, but should be taught critical thinking and know when it's reasonable to say "no." For example, there was an elderly man who went to my church when I was child. He'd always ask me to sit on his lap and give him hugs. Sometimes I'd give him hugs, but when it came to sitting on his lap I'd say, "no thank you." Turns out he was a child molester and everything he had told us about his life was a lie. I didn't blindly follow his instructions, I said no. If he had pushed I probably would have gotten upset because my parents taught me to trust my judgement and follow my instincts as a child when it came to obeying adults. Was I wrong? Should I have shut my mouth and hopped on the child molester's lap just because he's my elder? I think there's a line and there are limits.


^ this. (Sorry this happened to you by the way, how awful )
Not every adult has the best of intentions and as adults we should know we are by no means perfect. We have lapses in judgement too. Just because we are older doesn't mean we are right.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

My mom would have died if an older man ever LOOKED at me. . .I was taught from a very young age "don't sit on Grandpa's lap, don't let him touch you too much, just a quick hug and a peck on the cheek, if he lingers start screaming". . .oh fun times.

But hey, I may be generally distrustful but at least I was safe as a kid.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Chichan said:


> ^ this. (Sorry this happened to you by the way, how awful )
> Not every adult has the best of intentions and as adults we should no we are by no means perfect. We have lapses in judgement too. Just because we are older doesn't mean we are right.


II had a similar experience and i feel very lucky had the brain to tell my mom i was this close to eing molested instead of blindly trusting the man just BC he was an adult and a family friend.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm not saying blindly trusting all adults :/ but a lot of people don't teach thei kids how to "say no" to an adult and still be respectful about it . 

That's what I am saying, that it's ok to not obey an adult if they know it's wrong as they are still respectful about it.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Deleted; not worth prolonging the argument


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

My brother stood up to an adult that tried to kick me off the monkey bars at a playground when we were kids. Her reason was so her kid could play on them, but she was extremely rude about it and honestly had no right. She didn't own the playground, and there was plenty of other things to do there while she waited for me to stop. If it hadn't of been for my brother, I would of left based on just how intimidating the lady was. I was a very shy, non-confrontational kid. I'm glad someone had the nerve to tell her she had no right to bully a 9 year old, and she needed to learn a little patience. My brother rocks.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Geeze I am glad I never ran into any of these kinds of adults growing up, maybe its the area I am from (very conservative), and if you were told off by an adult here, it was usually because you were doing something you shouldn't be.


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