# White Collies? Have you heard of them? Any health problems?



## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

I know some breeds have health problems associated with colors of their coat. Something about the gene that makes a certain color also carries a bad disease. Sorry I can't be more specific, but I'm sure someone on here is more of an expert than I am!

So I fell in love with these white collies:

http://www.garlindridgecollies.com/id41.html

The breeders say there are no health issues associated with the color, and I do trust them...I'm just doing my homework.  I couldn't find anything myself, so I'm just wondering if anyone else has heard anything. It's such a beautiful color, IMO. I know it's not AKC-accepted (or whatever), but I'm still surprised they're relatively rare.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

White is an accepted collie color. They always have a colored head, which could be sable, tri or blue merle. Some have a completely white body while others have some spots of color.

From the AKC standard:

Color 
The four recognized colors are "Sable and White," "Tri-color," "Blue Merle" and "White." There is no preference among them. The "Sable and White" is predominantly sable (a fawn sable color of varying shades from light gold to dark mahogany) with white markings usually on the chest, neck, legs, feet and the tip of the tail. A blaze may appear on the foreface or backskull or both. The "Tri-color" is predominantly black, carrying white markings as in a "Sable and White" and has tan shadings on and about the head and legs. The "Blue Merle" is a mottled or "marbled" color predominantly blue-grey and black with white markings as in the "Sable and White" and usually has tan shadings as in the "Tri-color." The "White" is predominantly white, preferably with sable, tri-color or blue merle markings.


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## lisaj1354 (Feb 23, 2008)

They don't seem to health test at all (unless I missed it). That's a BIG red flag.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

lisaj1354 said:


> They don't seem to health test at all (unless I missed it). That's a BIG red flag.


Not every breeder that health tests will list the test results on their site, the ONLY way to know if they test would be to talk to the breeder.


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## CrazyDogLady (Dec 9, 2011)

On this page http://www.garlindridgecollies.com/id3.html they make some claims about their pups' genetics that lead me to believe that they do health test.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

If you click on the pages for males and females, it lists the health test results of the individual dogs. You can also always look dogs up on the OFA website..


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## Trzcina (Aug 9, 2010)

My understanding is that as long as they're not double merles (which those dogs aren't, from what I can tell) there are no specific color-linked health problems. They exist in Shelties, too, as color-headed whites. They're not an allowed color in shelties but apparently crop up with some frequency, but they are allowed in collies.

I saw a link that somebody put up on Facebook about more truly solid white (and still not double merle) Collies being popular for a while in the 1920s. I'm not sure if that's true, but the pictures were interesting anyway.

I do recommend searching for the individual dogs on the OFA website if you're not sure if they check. I believe you can search on the CERF site too--or at least you used to be able to. I haven't checked in a long time.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

Hmm, I'll check out the OFA website. It seems almost illegal for them to say they health test...but actually don't. Thanks for the tip!

These breeders also have a Facebook page, they're always posting photos of their dogs, any current litters, and they Friend people who bought puppies from them so they can post photos and videos, too. The breeders will say who the parents are of the dog in the photo/video. Some of the photos are puppies just sold from recent litters, some are adult dogs that they sold years ago. That HAS to be a good sign, right? That, plus the health testing...OFA for elbows and hips. genetics for CEA and the MDR1 gene. I'm not sure what else I can look for!


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

The breeder we got our collie from has 2 gorgeous whites. I've always been more of a fan of tri's and merles in collies, but I can't deny the beauty of these two...


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I have a (mostly) white dog, but I'm not at all a fan of putting color high on a priority list as far as breeding or buying a puppy.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I have a (mostly) white dog, but I'm not at all a fan of putting color high on a priority list as far as breeding or buying a puppy.


I will add to this statement...... Merlin's Breeder's, response when colors or markings are requested. You are buying a dog... You want to pick the color and trim, visit the nearest Chevy dealer.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I have a (mostly) white dog, but I'm not at all a fan of putting color high on a priority list as far as breeding or buying a puppy.





JohnnyBandit said:


> I will add to this statement...... Merlin's Breeder's, response when colors or markings are requested. You are buying a dog... You want to pick the color and trim, visit the nearest Chevy dealer.


Riiiight. That's obviously what this thread is about.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm sorry, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to choose a dog that is pleasing to your eyes. If I'm paying a breeder all that money, you're damn right I want a CHOICE on which dog I get. Obviously temperament, compatibility and health are first and foremost, but if I had the choice between a black dog and a merle dog (temperament/compatibility/health taken into consideration), I would choose the merle hands down. Nothing wrong with black dogs, I just prefer the merle coloring. I don't see how this is any different than choosing a certain breed you want. Everyone has their own preferences.

Now obviously I wouldn't specifically ask a breeder to produce a certain color/markings, but if there's a litter in front of me, I'm going to choose the one that works for me. That means temperament etc, AND appearance.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Blue Merle's are my color of choice in shelties but for me, health and temperament are so much more impirtaht than the color.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

chipinmom said:


> I'm sorry, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to choose a dog that is pleasing to your eyes. If I'm paying a breeder all that money, you're damn right I want a CHOICE on which dog I get. Obviously temperament, compatibility and health are first and foremost, but if I had the choice between a black dog and a merle dog (temperament/compatibility/health taken into consideration), I would choose the merle hands down.


Exactly. I've been on the waiting list for this breeder for almost 6 months now, and plan on getting my puppy roughly a year from now. I love the look of white collies. If there's pups in "my" litter with the right temperament and gender, the right health tests and parents, and one's sable and one's white...apparently I'm supposed to flip a coin to decide which one I'm taking home. Because if I purposely pick a white over a sable, then ohmygod. I'm buying a DOG, not a CAR.

Seriously, I have no idea where you guys got the idea that I'm going with color as the #1 priority. Or even _a_ priority. I just said I loved the color, and asked if there were health issues associated with it, as I know health problems exist in certain coat colors (merle/merle, apparently). 

90% of the time this board is great, but sometimes, you just have to raise your hands and slowly back away....like now.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Personally I think it was very responsible that the OP even researched the color before just going ahead with a purchase. They obviously wouldn't put the color over the health of the dog (hence why they wanted to make sure it didn't cause problems like a double merle crossing) so I wouldn't assume they're choosing merely based upon color. I don't think it's wrong to have a color preference so long as it isn't blinding you from everything else about the dog. I think the majority of people look first for a marriage of prefered looks, health and temperament when it comes to finding the dog that's right for them, whether they want to admit it or not.


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## Masterjedi688 (Apr 27, 2009)

All Collies no matter what color they maybe, must be tested. No one color of Collie can be illness free. PRA blindness, hip displaysia, seizures among others are common in collies. OP, if you do decide to go with this breeder, make sure they can provide all the necessary medical records and tests there dogs have gone through.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Rowdy said:


> White is an accepted collie color. They always have a colored head, which could be sable, tri or blue merle. Some have a completely white body while others have some spots of color.
> 
> From the AKC standard:
> 
> ...


but my only concern is they seem to be "ok" with breeding white to white, which as i understand it is a no no..... is that true?

I was going to rescue a collie from houston collie rescue but the vet references didnt check out with them  they said not enough history on my dogs... who had (until Izze's accident) had only been to the vet for routine things (yearly shots & the like) i would have thought that would have been a good sign, that i cared for my dogs & was so successful in managing them that i didnt ever need a vet. .

I didnt want to go to a breeder bc i dont have the time for a puppy but seeing all those lovely pups makes me want one :/, there is another collie rescue in TX (texas collie rescue) would it be bad to contact them or to the rescues keep in touch? i dont wsant to look like a weirdo :/


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> but my only concern is they seem to be "ok" with breeding white to white, which as i understand it is a no no..... is that true?


Isn't the white in Collies the same gene as piebald like in Papillons? There's no way not to breed whites to whites in Papillons and it doesn't cause any problems. Or is it caused by a different gene that has different effects? If it is the same gene as piebald, the only way it would cause health problems I believe is if there isn't enough color covering the ears, which can cause deafness. Which is why many breed standards that include piebald as a color require the ears to be fully colored at the very least.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Sloth said:


> Riiiight. That's obviously what this thread is about.


But that IS what this thread is about. You're talking about getting a dog because you like the look. To each his own, but I advise against that. I've seen it turn sour; in fact, the prime example I can think of involved a very sickly white collie from stellar lines - parents had been tested for everything mentioned by masterjedi and more.

Chipin says that she doesn't see how choosing a color that you prefer is any different than choosing a breed that you prefer. I disagree. You should choose a breed that matches your lifestyle, not just one whose looks appeal to you. But color, well, that's all about looks.

Especially when it comes to herding breeds, I'm a purist on the issue of looks. I absolutely will not tell someone that their dog is beautiful. Herding dogs are not meant to be beautiful, they are meant to be functional. Putting their looks (for example, the fullness of the collie coat) above other considerations has deteriorated their function. Don't believe me? How many collies (rough or smooth, not border) do you know who actually do stockwork? 

No one said that you were putting color above health and temperament. I can see that you are thinking through things. I can also see that I'm not going to change anyone's opinion on breeding/buying with a color preference, and I've already stated my opinion, so I'm done with this thread.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

In my breed there is every reason to be choosy about color, blacks and reds have few skin issues, however Blues and Fawns have frequent problems and are prone to skin issues. I LOVE the look of Blue dobes but will never have another because of the skin issues they're prone to. 

I also never plan to have another brindle Mastiff, I'll go to a breeder that is planning a litter of Fawns or Apricots.


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## Masterjedi688 (Apr 27, 2009)

They are Gorgeous in white.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> But that IS what this thread is about. You're talking about getting a dog because you like the look. To each his own, but I advise against that. I've seen it turn sour; in fact, the prime example I can think of involved a very sickly white collie from stellar lines - parents had been tested for everything mentioned by masterjedi and more.


I'll put on my colorblind glasses when I go to pick out the pup from the litter. But if the male dog with the best temperament is a White? Your example is the exact thing I'm worried about - could the dog's sickliness have come from its color? These breeders test the parents, and they say there's no health issues with whites. But then I hear of stories like GottaLuvMutts, and I wonder.



Nargle said:


> Isn't the white in Collies the same gene as piebald like in Papillons? There's no way not to breed whites to whites in Papillons and it doesn't cause any problems. Or is it caused by a different gene that has different effects? If it is the same gene as piebald, the only way it would cause health problems I believe is if there isn't enough color covering the ears, which can cause deafness. Which is why many breed standards that include piebald as a color require the ears to be fully colored at the very least.


This is why it's frustrating, I can't find much info regarding genetics and Whites. The only thing I found was breeding Merle/Merle creates a "Double Dilute" white, and these can have major health problems, but they're not "true" whites. If White collies do have health problems, would other non-white pups in the litter have those same health problems?



dogdragoness said:


> I was going to rescue a collie from houston collie rescue but the vet references didnt check out with them  they said not enough history on my dogs... who had (until Izze's accident) had only been to the vet for routine things (yearly shots & the like) i would have thought that would have been a good sign, that i cared for my dogs & was so successful in managing them that i didnt ever need a vet. .


I don't mean to get off-topic on my own thread, but this is a prime example of how completely ridiculous it can be to try to adopt a dog. Between this and other stories I've heard, it seems some very fine owners are being rejected.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Those dogs are color headed whites. There are no health issues associated with color headed whites, they are the same thing as piebalds in other breeds (like papillons, JRTs, pointers, etc etc etc) The confusion with 'white' shelties and collies having problems is that double merle dogs often are mostly white and they can have problems with eyesight and with hearing among other things. Historically this caused confusion because of lack of understanding genetics and people thinking they were the same thing. Color headed whites are from a recessive white spotting gene, merle is dominant. 

Anyways, long story short the colors are legitimate and will generally have no problems. In collies, the color is accepted. In shelties they are a DQ by the AKC but I know they are showable in other organizations (UKC I'm pretty sure). I think CHW shelties being a DQ is silly and it also stems from people seeing sick 'white' shelties and not realizing that CHWs are not going ot have the issues that double merles do even if they're both mostly white.

Lack of pigment though can be a problem when it comes to hearing though, which as Nargle stated is why so many breeds require pigment over both eyes and ears. But it's not just a piebald thing, Irish spotted dogs can also often have excessive white on their faces. Although in other breeds split faces and white ears are seen often enough with seemingly no problems. But I have known a couple piebald dogs (who did have white ears at least parially) that were deaf in that ear.


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## Spiritwind (Mar 4, 2011)

Sloth said:


> The breeders say there are no health issues associated with the color, and I do trust them...I'm just doing my homework.  I couldn't find anything myself, so I'm just wondering if anyone else has heard anything. It's such a beautiful color, IMO. I know it's not AKC-accepted (or whatever), but I'm still surprised they're relatively rare.


Color headed white Collies have no more health issues than any other color.. Sable.. tri or blue merle. They are actually an accepted color in the AKC and can and are shown and bred. 



chipinmom said:


> The breeder we got our collie from 12 years ago (getting another one in June from her, so we have been in contact lately) has 2 gorgeous whites. I've always been more of a fan of tri's and merles in collies, but I can't deny the beauty of these two...
> 
> 
> LANCE
> ...


Sort of off topic, but not really... Lance, appears to me, to be a Double Merle.. not an actual color headed white. But I could be wrong, but he has the typical markings on the head of many double merles. Most regular color headed whites will have much more color on the head, and regular blue merle markings on the head.. double merles tend to have very little color on their heads, especially down their muzzles.. where the merle is diluted even more but the tan on the side of the face is left...



dogdragoness said:


> but my only concern is they seem to be "ok" with breeding white to white, which as i understand it is a no no..... is that true?


This is not true. Breeding color headed white to color headed white is fine (as long as both color headed whites are not sable merle headed or blue merle headed). The white factor gene is recessive. You breed two white factored collies together, and you can get color headed whites... as well as white factored and non-white factored dogs. You breed color headed white to color headed white, you will get all color headed whites. 



GottaLuvMutts said:


> Especially when it comes to herding breeds, I'm a purist on the issue of looks. I absolutely will not tell someone that their dog is beautiful. Herding dogs are not meant to be beautiful, they are meant to be functional. Putting their looks (for example, the fullness of the collie coat) above other considerations has deteriorated their function. Don't believe me? How many collies (rough or smooth, not border) do you know who actually do stockwork?


I actually know of several breeders who work their dogs and show them. I bred a bitch to a stud dog from one of these lines a few years ago. The breeder introduces all her puppies to stock as part of her temperament testing, and starts them all very young. 



Sloth said:


> I'll put on my colorblind glasses when I go to pick out the pup from the litter. But if the male dog with the best temperament is a White? Your example is the exact thing I'm worried about - could the dog's sickliness have come from its color? These breeders test the parents, and they say there's no health issues with whites. But then I hear of stories like GottaLuvMutts, and I wonder.
> 
> This is why it's frustrating, I can't find much info regarding genetics and Whites. The only thing I found was breeding Merle/Merle creates a "Double Dilute" white, and these can have major health problems, but they're not "true" whites. If White collies do have health problems, would other non-white pups in the litter have those same health problems?


I think the sickly white collies people talk about are more t han likely actually double merles, but the general public doesn't know the difference between a color headed white, and a double merle, who looks white, but genetically is not white at all, and the health issues in these double merles (deafness, blindness..skin issues..etc..etc..) are associated with the dog being a double merle... not because the dog is "white". 

I know a few years ago when I was talking to a lot of breeders in Europe, they were very much against color headed whites, because they too believe they are unhealthy and have issues not seen in regular tri colors, sables and blue merles... however whites have never been an accepted color over there, so I'm guessing very few breeders over there have ever even seen a true color headed white in person.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Question... would breeding a White Factored Sable Merle male and a Sable Merle bitch produce a White Factored Sable or a Double Merle?


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## Spiritwind (Mar 4, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> Question... would breeding a White Factored Sable Merle male and a Sable Merle bitch produce a White Factored Sable or a Double Merle?


White factored sable merle bred to a sable merle (non-white factored?) would give you some puppies that would be white factored, and you do have a chance for double merles... if only one parent was white factored none of the puppies would be color headed whites....if both dogs were white facotred, you could get color headed white sable merles (and possibly blue merle headed whites -- if either parent was also tri-factored)... BUT you could also get Double Merles. Double merles can be white factored.. or color headed whites.. (blue merle headed white, bred to a blue merle headed white would give you all color headed whites.. but also a chance for some double merles....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

chipinmom said:


> Question... would breeding a White Factored Sable Merle male and a Sable Merle bitch produce a White Factored Sable or a Double Merle?


'White factored' in shelties and collies is actually different from a CHW. That would be a dog that carries the pied coloration. A color headed white comes from two white factored parents (or a CHW x CHW, or CHW x white factored)

Are you asking if both parents are merle and color headed white? If so then yes, it would likely produce a dog that is both. 50% chance that the puppy is both CHW and double merle.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Spiritwind said:


> White factored sable merle bred to a sable merle (non-white factored?) would give you some puppies that would be white factored... if only one parent was white factored none of the puppies would be color headed whites....if both dogs were white facotred, you could get color headed white sable merles... BUT you could also get Double Merles. Double merles can be white factored.. or color headed whites.. (blue merle headed white, bred to a blue merle headed white would give you all color headed whites.. but also a chance for some double merles....


Thanks Spiritwind. I actually messed up.


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## Spiritwind (Mar 4, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> Thanks Spiritwind. I actually messed up. I was looking at Lance's pedigree wrong. His parents are a White Factored Sable and a Sable-M Headed White. Here's his pedigree http://www.livingwatercollies.com/pedigrees/VANNA LANCE PED.pdf
> 
> And a couple face pics..


Thanks for the link to the pedigree, and more pictures. I still think he looks very much like a double merle (but as I said above, could be wrong). Based on his pedigree, Lance's father is out of two merles, so I'm almost wondering if Lance's father isn't a (cryptic) sable merle.. rather than just a sable. If that is the case, since Lance's mother is a sable merle, then Lance could be a double merle. 

Here are a couple links to Double merles (or white merles as I believe they are called one of the sites) that look very much like Lance. 

http://www.rainshadecollies.com/DogStories/breezy.html

http://www.rainshadecollies.com/DogStories/charlotte.html


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Could her be some sort of harlequin merle?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't see any problem with expressing a color preference, as long as you are not buying a dog based on color first and foremost. When I eventually get another papillon (many years from now), I will explain to the breeder what type of personality I'm looking for and how much time I have to offer a dog, and ask the breeder to suggest specific pups for me. If there are two or three pups that could work well for me, I am going to go with the one whose color and markings I like best. I will be looking at and photographing whatever dog I buy for probably 16 years; I would like to enjoy doing so! And I would have no problem waiting for a pup with the right combination of temperament, health and color to come along. 

I am very against breeding for color, and very against buying a puppy just because you think it's pretty. But I see no problem with making color a part of your decision.


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## Spiritwind (Mar 4, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Could her be some sort of harlequin merle?


It's possible, but he doesn't really look like most Harlequin Collies I've seen either. If he was a harlequin he would more than likely have a least a little more color on him.. mainly black patches.. somewhere. 

I actually know a breeder who has a litter of Collies right now that are about 2-3 wks old with several harlequins in the litter...


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

Thank you SO much for the information!

I was looking at images of "double merle" dogs, and it saddens me. It doesn't seem like a problem that should exist. 

Thanks again for clearing everything up for me!


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## dannimac (Feb 22, 2012)

Hope you end up with a wonderful pup!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Spiritwind said:


> Color headed white Collies have no more health issues than any other color.. Sable.. tri or blue merle. They are actually an accepted color in the AKC and can and are shown and bred.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have seen pics of double Merle dogs ..... Bleh! Why would anyone do that ??) what is the purpose? Thanks for clearing it up for me.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

They only issues I know of would be double merle and gray Collie syndrome. 

The whites do look interesting. I'm always amazed at all the different colors (and coat types) in dogs. 

I also tend to prefer certain colors on certain breed. Don't know why.


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## WHITEONES (Aug 17, 2013)

I am the owner of Lance and Vanna.
Lance is not a double-dilute. As you can see in the face on pics he has beautiful dark brown eyes and double-dilutes always have blue eyes. Also he has sired many tri-color and sable color puppies and double-dilutes only produce merle puppies.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Those are gorgeous Collies. In my opinion, there are only a certain amount of breeds (Collies, Shelties, PB's, etc) that can pull off any coat color and still be beautiful.


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