# Beneful Dog Food Alert



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I just got this through my Rescue site.
http://www.doggybling.com/newsarticle.php?id=1070

BENEFUL DOG FOOD ALERT!!! We have received multiple notices of dogs dying after eating Beneful...
January 29th, 2007
Author: Stephanie Creekmore
----------------------------------------------

BENEFUL DOG FOOD ALERT!!! 

Please read the following emails from people who have fed Beneful to their dogs. We have researched this and have come to the conclusion that the problem is with dog food that was purchased from Wal Mart stores around Christmas. 

A week before Christmas we bought a bag of Beneful dog food at Wal-Mart, DeFuniak Springs, FL. On 12/23 I noticed a tan mold like growth on the dog food. Our 14 year old Dalmatian mix had been getting weaker by the day and by 12/24 she was near death. Glazed eyes, couldn't stand, eat, drink or control her functions. Her gums were white. We had to carry her to the yard and hold her up so she could go. The only thing she would eat was ham and turkey scraps. I spoke with a microbiologist and she said the mold growing in the dog food was toxic. It took a week for Sparky to regain her strength. 

I did notify the manufacturer of Beneful, they were very sorry and are sending coupons. Said it was a rare happening. 

I know in multi-dog households, it's tempting to buy dog food in bulk... 
Please check your dry dog food for toxic mold. It could save the life of your pet. 

This was a response to the first email that was in our forum... 

I didn't personally have a similar experience to yours, but a close friend did. When we started getting into the details, we found out that there were many cases of dog food (out of date) and other similar issues at Wal Mart. When the issue was brought up to the manager at the Wal Mart and my friend demanded that the food be removed from shelves, an employee said that the food was removed, but sent to another store. I would recommend trying to find an alternative to Wal Mart. I have and it has opened up a whole new world for me. They should be forced to remove the sign outside that says "always", because if you can shop around and can add, it is very misleasing. The sign should have to say "sometimes". Kelli 

I ran out of my regular dog food Friday and got a bag of Beneful from my daughter that she had bought over Christmas when she was here visiting. It had not been opened. I fed to my dogs - one of my dogs started getting very listful and breathing rapidly Saturday night. I watched him and tried to make him comfortable. He was prone to airborne allergies so I assumed he was having one of his episodes. Saturday morning his gums whitened and he was feeling really bad. My vet was not available at that time. I went to the store and came back to find him dead. That quick! I came to work today and find that one of my coworkers lost his dog Friday after feeding him Beneful last week that he had bought around Christmas. This is seriously alarming and I will be pursueing this with the manufacturer. No coupons can replace our family member. I would like to see if there is a website where this may be documented. Jan 

Other emails received- 
Stephanie-Ric spoke to Jan who submitted the notice above and was told that Beneful said they had no previous reports on this issue, which is contrary to multiple emails and calls we have received, most who cited direct contact and an offer of coupons from Beneful. We've even had posts to the forum, which was brand new and had only 5 members at the time. Jan's experience with an agent named Terri was better than what we heard from other people. Terri asked Jan to send samples of the dog food and they would analyze it. Terri also offered to pay for an autopsy of Jan's dog, but it was too late since the dog had already been buried. Ric asked Jan where the food was purchased, since the other reports all listed Wal Mart and yes, it was Wal Mart. For those of you who remember, the Diamond food problem from last year was also a problem with dog food purchased primarily at Wal Mart or Sam's Club. From our experience, Purina is a responsible company, so it is not hard to figure out where a lot of these issues originate. We will be contacting Beneful today to hear how they are responding to this issue and will report it back here. 

Point to make-Every time an issue with food quality comes up, so does the name Wal Mart. 

Contact with Beneful--Ric spoke with Lisa Culp from Beneful, who was unable to give an official response, but did seem concerned with the problem. She will send the information to corporate, who will give an official response. Lisa said she would contact us with any news, as soon as she has it. Any correspondence will be reported in our news section. 

We are working on inserting a "Health Alert Ticker" on DoggyBling.com where these types of alerts can be found. As of now, I don't know of any site where notices of this type are available. Because of this, our alert is being put on the fast track. We take issues like this very seriously and will hold companies accountable for how they handle situations of this kind. Lets hope that Purina puts what is right above the bottom line.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Beneful is not a good food anyway. Ingredients are pretty poor.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

IMHO, this sounds more like a Walmart problem than a Purina problem. However, I do agree that since Purina knows it's a problem, they should take action- possibly by putting out a public alert and pulling product from Walmart stores until Walmart can cooperate and start pulling expired products properly. People should be checking the expiration dates on the food they are buying- I know, easier said than done with most of the general public. It's something I always do- especially since I buy in bulk.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

This is why I don't buy dog food from Walmart or grocery stores, the stock just doesn't turn over quickly enough. Even at Von's and other such stores I've seen bags that have clearly been there for weeks. Of course, I don't feed a brand you'd find at a grocer or discount store anyhow.


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

I have fed my dog Beneful for a yr and a half and found no problem so far. 
I buy it at Walmart too. I will check the food when I get home today for the mold. Thanks!


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

crazydog06 said:


> I have fed my dog Beneful for a yr and a half and found no problem so far.
> I buy it at Walmart too. I will check the food when I get home today for the mold. Thanks!


Here are the ingredients in Beneful. Some of the really poor ones for a quality dogfood are highlighted.

*Ground yellow corn*,* chicken by-product meal*,* corn gluten meal*, whole wheat flour, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, *soy flour,[/B] sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, animal digest, salt, phosphoric acid, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), DL-Methionine, zinc sulfate, glyceryl monostearate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite.
F-4090

here is a web page explaining what you should avoid in food you feed your dog...


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients*


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up on the ingredients as well as the stock info on buying in bulk, this is a good post for people to see


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Here are the ingredients in Beneful. Some of the really poor ones for a quality dogfood are highlighted.
> 
> *Ground yellow corn*,* chicken by-product meal*,* corn gluten meal*, whole wheat flour, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, *soy flour,[/B] sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, animal digest, salt, phosphoric acid, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), DL-Methionine, zinc sulfate, glyceryl monostearate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite.
> F-4090
> ...


*

There is nothing inherently wrong with the first three ingredients. Corn, when it is finely ground, is an excellent source of Omega fatty acids and highly digestible- as it is with Ground Yellow Corn. Chicken By-Product Meal is actually highly digestible as well as nutritious and includes things that would be in any normal RAW diet. Corn Gluten Meal is the highly digestible inside portion of the corn kernel, and it's rich in protein.

Now, before my head gets sent to the chopping block, I do want to say that I don't care for Beneful and it's not because of the quality of the ingredients, but because of the order and the amount of the ingredients. I do not like to see Corn as the first ingredient (second ingredient is fine, just not first), nor two products of corn in the first three. Also as I said, By-Products are fine but I like to see a named meat (not necessarily a meal, although I know that it would be better) as the first ingredient and then if there are By-Products to back that up, that's fine. So, all in all, I believe it's not necessarily poor quality ingredients more than it's the amount of them.

Also, a little correction: Walmart and Sam's Club have never carried any of Diamond's foods, so it's almost impossible that the toxic Diamond foods came from there- I know because I've shopped at both Sam's Club and Walmart for years (never bought my dog food there, of course, but have made a trip down the dog food aisle everytime I'm there to check out what foods they are stocking) and not once have I seen ANY of the foods that were listed in Diamond's recall. Also, why didn't the owner's take the dog to an emergency vet if they were so concern? And, if the food came from Walmart, why contact Purina when the problem obvisouly doesn't lie there? The more and more I'm reading this post, the more and more I'm thinking this just may be an elaborate hoax aimed at discrediting Purina and Walmart. I may be wrong, but the facts are just not adding up and it wouldn't be the first of it's kind...*


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> There is nothing inherently wrong with the first three ingredients. Corn, when it is finely ground, is an excellent source of Omega fatty acids and highly digestible- as it is with Ground Yellow Corn. Chicken By-Product Meal is actually highly digestible as well as nutritious and includes things that would be in any normal RAW diet. Corn Gluten Meal is the highly digestible inside portion of the corn kernel, and it's rich in protein.
> 
> Now, before my head gets sent to the chopping block, I do want to say that I don't care for Beneful and it's not because of the quality of the ingredients, but because of the order and the amount of the ingredients. I do not like to see Corn as the first ingredient (second ingredient is fine, just not first), nor two products of corn in the first three. Also as I said, By-Products are fine but I like to see a named meat (not necessarily a meal, although I know that it would be better) as the first ingredient and then if there are By-Products to back that up, that's fine. So, all in all, I believe it's not necessarily poor quality ingredients more than it's the amount of them.
> 
> Also, a little correction: Walmart and Sam's Club have never carried any of Diamond's foods, so it's almost impossible that the toxic Diamond foods came from there- I know because I've shopped at both Sam's Club and Walmart for years (never bought my dog food there, of course, but have made a trip down the dog food aisle everytime I'm there to check out what foods they are stocking) and not once have I seen ANY of the foods that were listed in Diamond's recall. Also, why didn't the owner's take the dog to an emergency vet if they were so concern? And, if the food came from Walmart, why contact Purina when the problem obvisouly doesn't lie there? The more and more I'm reading this post, the more and more I'm thinking this just may be an elaborate hoax aimed at discrediting Purina and Walmart. I may be wrong, but the facts are just not adding up and it wouldn't be the first of it's kind...


The primary ingredient in any decent dog food should not be grains like corn, wheat , etc. Chicken byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than the chicken muscle meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. A dogfood that has those ingredients is just like feeding a child a diet of twinkies and french fries in my opinion.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

> There is nothing inherently wrong with the first three ingredients. Corn, when it is finely ground, is an excellent source of Omega fatty acids and highly digestible- as it is with Ground Yellow Corn.


There are way better sources for Omega fatty acids than corn... corn is undigestible for dogs and more or less a filler. To me thats a horrible ingredient to be in a dogs diet.
However, on the topic of the Beneful..
What more do you expect from cheap crappy foods?? They spend more on advertisment of their product then actually trying to produce something good.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> The primary ingredient in any decent dog food should not be grains like corn, wheat , etc. Chicken byproducts are much less expensive and less digestible than the chicken muscle meat.The ingredients of each batch can vary drastically in ingredients (heads, feet, bones etc.) as well as quality, thus the nutritional value is also not consistent. A dogfood that has those ingredients is just like feeding a child a diet of twinkies and french fries in my opinion.


This is not true- especially if the company produces what is called a "fixed formula" in which the quality and quantity of the ingredients never changes with the cost of purchasing them. Also, I think you really should search for a few current studies on By-Products as they are actually highly nutritious and digestible, providing a wide range of vitamins and minerals as well as being very high in protein. And, actually, there is nothing in By-Products that would not be fed to a dog on a RAW diet. That's something that has always striken me as odd- the fact that people dislike seeing By-Products in their dog's kibble, but will gladly serve them a meal of tongues, livers, hearts, necks, etc. Doesn't make sense, does it?!


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I dont mean to pick at your posts LabLady but there is plenty that is considered a by product that I would never drop in my dogs dish.

http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/chicbyprodmeal.htm


> Definition: Chicken by-product meal consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.


I do not feed undeveloped eggs or intestines to my dogs, or any amount of feathers....

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts
(midway down the page)
What to avoid: 


> ►All generic meat ingredients that do not indicate a species (meat, meat byproducts, meat byproduct meal, meat meal, meat & bone meal, blood meal, fish, fish meal, poultry, poultry byproducts, poultry meal, poultry byproduct meal, liver, liver meal, glandular meal etc.)
> 
> ►Byproduct meals, even if a species is identified (chicken/beef/turkey/lamb byproduct meal etc.), since highly questionable ingredients may be used in these rendered products.
> ►Any food that contains corn (ground or otherwise) as a first ingredient, especially if corn gluten meal is also a main ingredient and no concentrated source of identified meat protein (e.g. chicken meal, lamb meal etc.) is present.
> ► Corn gluten or soy(bean) meal as main ingredients. Note: Not all dogs tolerate soy products! Small amounts, especially of organic soy, are okay as long as a dog is not sensitive. There are only very few products on the market that include high quality soy ingredients, none of them sold at grocery stores or mass retailers.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> There are way better sources for Omega fatty acids than corn... corn is undigestible for dogs and more or less a filler. To me thats a horrible ingredient to be in a dogs diet.
> However, on the topic of the Beneful..
> What more do you expect from cheap crappy foods?? They spend more on advertisment of their product then actually trying to produce something good.


No, Corn is not undigestible, nor is it always a "filler". If you really believe that, you have YEARS of study in the field of Dog Nutrition ahead of you. You really should look at the definition of "filler" too- it hardly describes the use of grains in dog food.

Also, advertising has nothing to do with anything. If it did, then I guess no one should feed Nutro, Diamond, Solid Gold, Eage Pack, etc. as they are all jumping on the advertising bandwagon.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> Also, advertising has nothing to do with anything. If it did, then I guess no one should feed Nutro, Diamond, Solid Gold, Eage Pack, etc. as they are all jumping on the advertising bandwagon.


However, Nutro, Diamond, Solid Gold and Eagle Pack are decent foods.



> No, Corn is not undigestible, nor is it always a "filler". If you really believe that, you have YEARS of study in the field of Dog Nutrition ahead of you. You really should look at the definition of "filler" too- it hardly describes the use of grains in dog food.


However, it seems strange to me that I havent heard of any wolves or dogs raiding a farmers corn field perhaps because grains are not a part of a carnivores natural diet??? Thats what gets me.. the people who are advocates for "lesser" food ingredients have some belief that dogs need to eat veggies or grains inorder to have balance in their diet. IMO adding grains is useless for a dogs diet, or should someone post a memo in the wilderness for the wolves to reconsider their diet?


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> I dont mean to pick at your posts LabLady but there is plenty that is considered a by product that I would never drop in my dogs dish.
> 
> http://cats.about.com/od/catfoodglossary/g/chicbyprodmeal.htm
> 
> I do not feed undeveloped eggs or intestines to my dogs, or any amount of feathers....


Feathers are not an acceptable By-Product, maybe you need to reread that part of the definition. Also, if you know exactly what a company puts in their product (which they will gladly tell you if you bother to call ), it might not be as "horrible" as everyone imagines. I know of one company imparticular (I'm not going to name names, if you want you can PM me, although the information is clearly on their website if anyone cared to actually look) that NEVER uses feet, heads, or beaks and specifically has only quality organs set aside to go into it's food- which costs more money. But, I suppose actually spending more money on ensuring a quality product makes them more of "crap", "junk", "garbage", etc. company. Things are not always as "horrible" as what they seem on the ingredients list. You really should contact some of these companies to find out why they use the ingredients they use. I can tell you, it's not always because they are "cheap", "crappy", "junk", "poor quality" ingredients- even basic nutritional research will tell you that.

Also, I think the dogfoodproject.com website is horse hockey, made by a person who only knows what they've been told and what consumers want to hear about Dog Nutrition- and none of it research. If I went by what that woman says, I'd have to put my waders on in order to stand in all the crap.



Wimble Woof said:


> However, Nutro, Diamond, Solid Gold and Eagle Pack are decent foods.
> 
> 
> However, it seems strange to me that I havent heard of any wolves or dogs raiding a farmers corn field perhaps because grains are not a part of a carnivores natural diet??? Thats what gets me.. the people who are advocates for "lesser" food ingredients have some belief that dogs need to eat veggies or grains inorder to have balance in their diet. IMO adding grains is useless for a dogs diet, or should someone post a memo in the wilderness for the wolves to reconsider their diet?


What's so different about Nutro, Diamond, Solid Gold, Eagle Pack etc. that makes them any better than others? I can't find anything, and can, in fact, question quite a few of their ingredients. For example, Nutro NC L&R may use Lamb Meal as their first ingredient, but then they engage in "ingredient splitting" with their next 3 ingredients being rice products. Now, exactly how much meat is in the product with that much rice? Not as much as they'd like everyone to believe.


Actually, I have heard the farmers complain about wolves and coyotes raiding their corn and wheat fields. They are just as bad as the deer around here. I saw a coyote in a corn field back in the fall. They do indeed eat grains- even when they have all sorts of ducks, cows, chickens, etc. that they could catch. And no, these are not "mutant" wolves and coyotes. These are the run of the mill type, nothing special or odd about them.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Im guessing more horse hockey??
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=70&cat=7
http://www.eridox.com/health/nutrition.php
Seriously, I have no intentions on turning the world against kibble, but in all reality... i see no point to certain ingredients.

I also have no intentions on having you agree with my point, these debates never end good. 
I guess im just going to keep on with my belief on the issue and you on yours, next thing that'll probably pop up is how the Guide dog association doesnt agree with raw therefore no one should or that there has been no study of the benifits of raw feeding over kibble? and so on... I've been here before.

I'll just take the proof of centuries of healthy carnivores surviving just fine on a meat based diet with out certain ingredients and carry on with what Im doing.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

You now, had NO intention of starting an argument here, I simply wanted people to know there might be a problem with a product that many feed their dogs. Why argue over ingredients or raw versus kibble? It's a matter of choice.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

> Actually, I have heard the farmers complain about wolves and coyotes raiding their corn and wheat fields. They are just as bad as the deer around here. I saw a coyote in a corn field back in the fall. They do indeed eat grains- even when they have all sorts of ducks, cows, chickens, etc. that they could catch. And no, these are not "mutant" wolves and coyotes. These are the run of the mill type, nothing special or odd about them.


Im honestly yet to hear about it around here. 
Anyways...as I said earlier i'm not going to debate about this forever... raw is working wonders for me (even without grains ) as kibble works wonders for you. 
Also... perhaps I do have a lot of learning to do about kibble, but frankly, im not too interested, before kibble came about dogs survived and lived good lives. So there is something to be said about raw/home cooked


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> Im guessing more horse hockey??
> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=70&cat=7
> http://www.eridox.com/health/nutrition.php
> Seriously, I have no intentions on turning the world against kibble, but in all reality... i see no point to certain ingredients.
> ...


Yup, you got it! More horse hockey! And, believe it or not, I have no intention of turning you away from RAW. My only point is that there is a lot of ingredients in kibble that are actually very healthy and have a purpose in a dog's diet beyond mearly what a consumer wants to see on the label- despite what a lot of people think.

No, I'm not going to get into the guide dog association's stance on anything, because ultimately I really don't care. (What does the guide dog association know about nutrition anyway? Training, yes. Nutrition, no.) I mearly care about what is good and healthy for my dogs. There are just a lot of ingredients that get VERY much undeserved bad raps (with no research to back up those conclusions), and that's where I feel I need to educate.

I also never said that a food should not be meat based- in fact, I tend not to even consider a food if it's not.

I agree, to each their own.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Great... so we agree to disagree on most parts!
Anything I have produced is "horse hockey"(thats an interesting image by the way lol) is your opinion, and By-products and corn are non essential ingredients is my opinion. I'll settle for that truce.


> My only point is that there is a lot of ingredients in kibble that are actually very healthy and have a purpose in a dog's diet beyond mearly what a consumer wants to see on the label- despite what a lot of people think.


 The way I honestly feel about it...
If you know why you choose to feed your dog X brand of dog food and have actually researched the benefits of it and are happy with your findings... Great! And yes... kibble does have healthy ingredients too.
But I hope you can agree that some foods have completely useless or potentially harmful (ie. menadione) ingredients and still say that their food is the best... 

*** should edit... I am aware that menadione has been removed from most petfoods, but was fed for a long time****


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## Meghan&Pedro (Nov 6, 2006)

I don't want to get into the debate of corn gluten meal being good or bad (and yes, I love the dogfoodproject, but I find that some of their defintions of ingredients are a little 'out there', and I can't find the same research elsewhere), but I did find this quote interesting and would like to comment on it.



Wimble Woof said:


> *perhaps because grains are not a part of a carnivores natural diet*??? Thats what gets me.. the people who are advocates for "lesser" food ingredients have some belief that dogs need to eat veggies or grains inorder to have balance in their diet. IMO adding grains is useless for a dogs diet, or should someone post a memo in the wilderness for the wolves to reconsider their diet?


Dogs aren't really carnivores. Dogs are opportunists - eating mainly meat, but eating fruits, veggies, and grasses when nessicary. Dogs also don't just eat ONE type of meat naturally. They eat MANY types of meat that each have varying diets of fruits, veggies and grasses or grains - and from eating these animals they derive the nutrients from these different fruits, veggies and yes - grains.

So in a lot of ways, yes, dogs do naturally eat grains.

Plus, they're not meant to eat just ONE protein source for their whole lives. They are meant to eat different animals. So if you just feed chicken - you can't rely on the grains that chickens eat alone to fill your dogs dietary needs. You will want a chicken based food that has roughly 55-65% meat, 35-45% fruits and veggies, (and if you feed grains, then about 10-15% grains, max)

And in regards to not feeding grains with your raw diet - that's okay, that's your choice. As long as you are supplementing properly (depending on what type of raw you are feeding) with both a supplement (such as Hokamix) and an oil (Grizzly salmon oil, or flax seed oil). Very few raw diets are complete, and it's not always easy to make sure that your dog is getting what they should be.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> Great... so we agree to disagree on most parts!
> Anything I have produced is "horse hockey"(thats an interesting image by the way lol) is your opinion, and By-products and corn are non essential ingredients is my opinion. I'll settle for that truce.
> The way I honestly feel about it...
> If you know why you choose to feed your dog X brand of dog food and have actually researched the benefits of it and are happy with your findings... Great! And yes... kibble does have healthy ingredients too.
> ...


Yup, I will agree that some foods don't use the best ingredients, but usually those are the companies that don't have quite such a large reputation of doing all their leg work (i.e. Ol' Roy, etc.) and being able to support the quality of their product with research. (I don't trust companies like Ol' Roy any farther than I can throw one of their 40# bags- which isn't very far! )


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> This is not true- especially if the company produces what is called a "fixed formula" in which the quality and quantity of the ingredients never changes with the cost of purchasing them. Also, I think you really should search for a few current studies on By-Products as they are actually highly nutritious and digestible, providing a wide range of vitamins and minerals as well as being very high in protein. And, actually, there is nothing in By-Products that would not be fed to a dog on a RAW diet. That's something that has always striken me as odd- the fact that people dislike seeing By-Products in their dog's kibble, but will gladly serve them a meal of tongues, livers, hearts, necks, etc. Doesn't make sense, does it?!


By products often contain parts of dead animals ( road kill if you were) , animals that died of disease and or were Euthanized. I am not feeding my dog that stuff even if they paid me to do it. Companies buy by-products from rendering plants and they have no idea what is really in the by-products, just what they are told by the rendering plant people. It varies on a continual basis. For the few cents difference in feeding a pet some ground up and processed unknown parts of animals or feeding your pet real humane grade meats, I think buying the good food is a no brainer. One of the biggest health problems with dogs is cancer. That doesn't surprise me at all, considering the large number of animals that are eating pet foods made out of horrible ingredients, must of which , could not be legally consumed by humans .

Here is a pretty good article on how bad cheap pet foods can be. 

http://www.belfield.com/article3.html


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> By products often contain parts of dead animals ( road kill if you were) , animals that died of disease and or were Euthanized. I am not feeding my dog that stuff even if they paid me to do it. Companies buy by-products from rendering plants and they have no idea what is really in the by-products, just what they are told by the rendering plant people. It varies on a continual basis. For the few cents difference in feeding a pet some ground up and processed unknown parts of animals or feeding your pet real humane grade meats, I think buying the good food is a no brainer. One of the biggest health problems with dogs is cancer. That doesn't surprise me at all, considering the large number of animals that are eating pet foods made out of horrible ingredients, must of which , could not be legally consumed by humans .
> 
> Here is a pretty good article on how bad cheap pet foods can be.
> 
> http://www.belfield.com/article3.html


I can tell you right now, that's all horse hockey. And do you know why? Because animals such as euthanized animals, diseased animals, and "road kill" (4-D animals if you will) are considered "condemned" animals and BY LAW cannot be included in anything except dirt. Perhaps, you really need to do more research on By-Products...


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> I can tell you right now, that's all horse hockey. And do you know why? Because animals such as euthanized animals, diseased animals, and "road kill" (4-D animals if you will) are considered "condemned" animals and BY LAW cannot be included in anything except dirt. Perhaps, you really need to do more research on By-Products...


Guess you didn't read the article that I posted with the link, so here it is again

http://www.belfield.com/article3.html

Here is another

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0106-03.htm

And another

http://www.fda.gov/cvm/FOI/DFreport.htm

And another

http://www.api4animals.org/facts.php?p=359&more=1


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Guess you didn't read the article that I posted with the link, so here it is again
> 
> http://www.belfield.com/article3.html
> 
> ...


Yes, I did read the article, and I still believe it to be nothing but horse hockey. And, perhaps you care to read one of your own articles:


> Dogs, cats not found in dog food
> 
> Because pentobarbital is used to euthanize dogs and cats at animal shelters, finding pentobarbital in rendered feed ingredients could suggest that the pets were rendered and used in pet food.
> 
> CVM scientists, as part of their investigation, developed a test to detect dog and cat DNA in the protein of the dog food. All samples from the most recent dog food survey (2000) that tested positive for pentobarbital, as well as a subset of samples that tested negative, were examined for the presence of remains derived from dogs or cats. The results demonstrated a complete absence of material that would have been derived from euthanized dogs or cats. The sensitivity of this method is 0.005% on a weight/weight basis; that is, the method can detect a minimum of 5 pounds of rendered remains in 50 tons of finished feed. Presently, it is assumed that the pentobarbital residues are entering pet foods from euthanized, rendered cattle or even horses.


Most decent quality foods do not contain cattle (beef) or horse meat. Most quality foods are Chicken, Lamb, Exotic (Bison, Venison, Duck, etc.), etc. based foods. So, your point about quality foods that do contain By-Products having diseased, euthanized, "road kill", etc. animals is null and void. I really think you need to go back and read your own posted links...


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> Yes, I did read the article, and I still believe it to be nothing but horse hockey. And, perhaps you care to read one of your own articles:
> Most decent quality foods do not contain cattle (beef) or horse meat. Most quality foods are Chicken, Lamb, Exotic (Bison, Venison, Duck, etc.), etc. based foods. So, your point about quality foods that do contain By-Products having diseased, euthanized, "road kill", etc. animals is null and void. I really think you need to go back and read your own posted links...


So all of these premium dog food companies that brag about not using by-products and corn and all wrong according to you. By the way, what exactly are your qualifications that jusitfies you making statements that these companies have it all wrong and you are right?


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> So all of these premium dog food companies that brag about not using by-products and corn and all wrong according to you. By the way, what exactly are your qualifications that jusitfies you making statements that these companies have it all wrong and you are right?


I didn't say all those companies were "wrong". I was simply pointing out that there are some quality foods that do contain By-Products and Corn and that those ingredients do serve a nutritional purpose in a dog's diet- despite what many people have been lead to believe by these "higher end" companies.

However, now that you brought it up, a lot of those companies are simply catering to what consumers want to see on the label and not what's necessarily good for the dog. For example, everyone wants to see a lot of meat meals in the first ingredients on the label. Why? Because that means the food has more meat in it, right? Canidae learned the hard way. They now have single protein source foods available. Why? Because quite a few dogs were actually developing allergies to all the different meat sources that are in their ALS formula. And with all those different sources, no one can pinpoint which one is causing a problem.

Also, as I pointed out earlier, Nutro may look like they put a lot of meat in their product because a meat meal is the first ingredient, but with the next 3 ingredients being rice, how much meat is actually in the food? Not as much as they'd like you to believe.

Not to mention Natural Balance Potato & Duck...No, that's not a typo, it is POTATO & Duck and Potato is the first ingredient (I've given up counting how many times I've seen people incorrectly post it as Duck & Potato). How much duck is actually in the food? Not as much as potato. And, something to point out about Potato...it's horrible for arthritic, dysplastic, etc. dogs! So, why is potato being used as an ingredient with that kind of information? Yet, it's a "premium" food- and supposedly "hypo-allergenic" to boot, hmm...

Now, I've been studying dog nutrition for quite some time now (both from my own experience and research as well as the experiences and knowledge of top breeders, trainers, and handlers), and while I can't say that all the "higher end" companies are "wrong", I also can't say that they have the ultimate health of dogs in mind either.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> I didn't say all those companies were "wrong". I was simply pointing out that there are some quality foods that do contain By-Products and Corn and that those ingredients do serve a nutritional purpose in a dog's diet- despite what many people have been lead to believe by these "higher end" companies.
> 
> However, now that you brought it up, a lot of those companies are simply catering to what consumers want to see on the label and not what's necessarily good for the dog. For example, everyone wants to see a lot of meat meals in the first ingredients on the label. Why? Because that means the food has more meat in it, right? Canidae learned the hard way. They now have single protein source foods available. Why? Because quite a few dogs were actually developing allergies to all the different meat sources that are in their ALS formula. And with all those different sources, no one can pinpoint which one is causing a problem.
> 
> ...


*The foods with potato as the first ingredient , are that way, because the ingredient list is ranked by the weight of the ingredients prior to processing into kibble, and potatos have alot of water in them which weighs more, but once dryed, potatos obviously don't weigh as much. If you notice, the canned version of the same food, where it is not dryed during the canning process, shows that the duck is the first ingredient............ 
*
http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/UPDcanned.html#DuckAnchor



And frankly, I don't think your personal research and experience makes you any kind of recognized authority on dog foods entitling you to make statements about what the the high quality pet food company's nutrionists, many of which have degrees in animal nutrition, value as good and bad in their dog food. Comments aimed towards people that are posting well documented facts on this subject, stating that they are full of "horse hockey" , don't help either.


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

So should I continue feeding my dog Purina products? I mean, the bag of Beneful we have is fine. The experation date is Jan of 08. I admit I do question the kibble. Even the look is kinda wierd. Mushy. So what should I be feeding her? What about Pedigree or Iams? We have used those in the past?


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

crazydog06 said:


> So should I continue feeding my dog Purina products? I mean, the bag of Beneful we have is fine. The experation date is Jan of 08. I admit I do question the kibble. Even the look is kinda wierd. Mushy. So what should I be feeding her? What about Pedigree or Iams? We have used those in the past?


Why not finsih the bag, and in the mean time, look for a better food for your dog. there are many to choose from. 

Innova
Natural Balance ( Petco) 
Canidae
Timber Wolf
Solid Gold
Nutro
Chicken Soup for Dogs
Royal Canin

If you are on a tight budget, Kirkland Brand sold at Cosco is pretty decent and inexpensive.

*Here is an actual comparison of prices for a really bad food and a pretty good one.....*

Found these on Shop.com

Purina Dog Chow ( the worst of the worst) 31 lb bag $22.79 It has ingredients in it bad enough to stop a clock.


Canidae Chicken and Rice Kibble...........33 lb bag $23.99 which is an excellent food....

http://www.canidae.com/dogs/chicken-and-rice/dry.html

I know which one I would buy.....


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> *The foods with potato as the first ingredient , are that way, because the ingredient list is ranked by the weight of the ingredients prior to processing into kibble, and potatos have alot of water in them which weighs more, but once dryed, potatos obviously don't weigh as much. If you notice, the canned version of the same food, where it is not dryed during the canning process, shows that the duck is the first ingredient............
> *
> http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/UPDcanned.html#DuckAnchor
> 
> ...


BTW, what exactly are your qualifications??? I don't believe you ever mentioned those. If they are SO much better than mine, please indulge me as well as everyone else and disclose them.

And "well documented facts on this subject" is EXACTLY what I have been posting. And, since you seem to think that I'm not qualified, you can go ahead and verify everything I have posted. It comes straight from nutritional experts whose work I have fully researched. Maybe you need to reread this entire thread as well as put in a few more years of research on the subject before you go around tauting yourself as an expert.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> BTW, what exactly are your qualifications??? I don't believe you ever mentioned those. If they are SO much better than mine, please indulge me as well as everyone else and disclose them.
> 
> And "well documented facts on this subject" is EXACTLY what I have been posting. And, since you seem to think that I'm not qualified, you can go ahead and verify everything I have posted. It comes straight from nutritional experts whose work I have fully researched. Maybe you need to reread this entire thread as well as put in a few more years of research on the subject before you go around tauting yourself as an expert.


I simply asked you what your qualifications were. I don't have any formal training such as a degree in the field of animal nutrition just as you apparently don't. I have been interested in health foods for both myself and my pets for about 3 decades and do much reading on the subject.. I also do alot of quoting from experts that I have researched, so I guess we are pretty much in the same boat as far as that goes. I don't make comments after someone posts something that I disagree with , calling what they said " horse hockey" however. I might say that I disagree with what they said , or try to quote something that contradicts what they say, but I don't think insulting someones statments serves any purpose.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> And "well documented facts on this subject" is EXACTLY what I have been posting. And, since you seem to think that I'm not qualified, you can go ahead and verify everything I have posted. It comes straight from nutritional experts whose work I have fully researched.


Out of curiosity.... are there any links to anything or recommended reads to these nutritional experts?


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I simply asked you what your qualifications were. I don't have any formal training such as a degree in the field of animal nutrition just as you apparently don't. I have been interested in health foods for both myself and my pets for about 3 decades and do much reading on the subject.. I also do alot of quoting from experts that I have researched, so I guess we are pretty much in the same boat as far as that goes. I don't make comments after someone posts something that I disagree with , calling what they said " horse hockey" however. I might say that I disagree with what they said , or try to quote something that contradicts what they say, but I don't think insulting someones statments serves any purpose.


I call things as they are. If "horse hockey" describes it best, that is what I call it. I'm sorry, but I don't see it as insulting to call a "chicken" a "chicken" because that's what it is. I have no use for dancing around issues and saying I "disagree" when I know the information that is being passed along is misleading or even false- you can ask the local Science Diet Rep about that, she doesn't like me either .

Also, I don't call it simply asking me what my qualifications were when you then proceed to attempt to discredit me- knowing full well that your qualifications aren't any better.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> I call things as they are. If "horse hockey" describes it best, that is what I call it. I'm sorry, but I don't see it as insulting to call a "chicken" a "chicken" because that's what it is. I have no use for dancing around issues and saying I "disagree" when I know the information that is being passed along is misleading or even false- you can ask the local Science Diet Rep about that, she doesn't like me either .
> 
> Also, I don't call it simply asking me what my qualifications were when you then proceed to attempt to discredit me- knowing full well that your qualifications aren't any better.


I didn't attempt to discredit you, I simply wanted to know what your qualifications were to make the statements that you were making that seem to run contrary to what most educated people in this field believe. Passing off your opinions as facts, and then using those "facts" to tell people that they are wrong ( i.e. comments like horse hockey) and you are right, misleads many people in my opinion. When I make a statement that I believe to be correct, I try to include some links or quotes from articles to show where and from who, I got the information.



Wimble Woof said:


> Out of curiosity.... are there any links to anything or recommended reads to these nutritional experts?


I would like to see those too.....


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I didn't attempt to discredit you, I simply wanted to know what your qualifications were to make the statements that you were making that seem to run contrary to what most educated people in this field believe. Passing off your opinions as facts, and then using those "facts" to tell people that they are wrong ( i.e. comments like horse hockey) and you are right, misleads many people in my opinion. When I make a statement that I believe to be correct, I try to include some links or quotes from articles to show where and from who, I got the information.


If you didn't attempt to discredit me, then what is this:


> And frankly, I don't think your personal research and experience makes you any kind of recognized authority on dog foods entitling you to make statements about what the the high quality pet food company's nutrionists, many of which have degrees in animal nutrition, value as good and bad in their dog food.


Seems like it's a stab at discrediting to me.

And if you don't like how your own links go against your own statements, don't blame me. I just showed you that information to back up what I was saying was located within your own links. But, if you must have more, here are a couple more:

These are statements from the "Great Dane Lady" Linda Arnt who is a Canine Nutritional Consultant:


> First, corn is one of the best natural sources of coat and skin conditioners like Omega 6. It has an overall digestibility is 90% and carbohydrate digestibility is 99%. In the instance of Eagle Dog Foods use of whole corn, Eagle grinds whole corn fresh for their products and they do not use any genetically engineered corn. It is bought from local farmers and no pesticides are applied from the day the seed is planted until the corn is picked. High quality whole corn is an excellent carbohydrate that is "used" as a carbohydrate source, not counted as protein source and it is not listed first on the ingredient panel. The fact is, legitimate research shows whole corn, to be considered very low on the list of foods that cause allergic reactions.
> 
> Before jumping on the bandwagon against corn used as a carbohydrate in a diet, you need to understand there is one cause for allergic reactions and that is a problem with an immune system. But there are many triggers for an "allergic type" reaction, some include: Genetic predisposition for Inhalant Atopic Dermatitis, Contact Dermatitis, Vaccines reactions (Purdue Study- Vaccine Mediated Responses), Candida Albicans (see Systemic Yeast Infections), Flea bite or Insect bite Determatitis, Thyroid and/or Hormones and in rare cases, food allergies.


This is from the Eagle Pack website:


> Fillers
> 
> Q: What are ‘fillers?
> 
> A: The answer to that can lead to big arguments. Fillers have no nutritional value. We look at wheat mids and peanut hulls as fillers. Some pet owners consider grains/carbohydrates as fillers. They are not ‘fillers’ if formulated correctly, i.e. not listed first in the ingredient panel. Used correctly, carbohydrates provide specific nutritional value.





> Corn (Whole Ground)
> 
> Corn is an ideal ingredient when used correctly in a formula. It is 99% digestible, an excellent energy source, and one of the best natural Omega 6 fatty acid sources.
> 
> ...


These are from Eukanuba's ingredient analyzer:


> Chicken By-Product Meal (protein)
> Chicken by-product meal is flesh and skin, internal organs including intestines, and bone that have been cleaned, dried, cooked and ground. It provides essential amino acids for muscle building, tissue repair, hormone synthesis and other metabolic processes. Internal organs are rich sources of protein, fats, and minerals, such as iron, that are essential to dog and cat health and add to the palatability of the pet food.
> 
> Including some ground bone provides a good source of minerals, such as calcium. Some pet-food manufacturers formulate their products without such ingredients to appeal to dog and cat owners, rather than for optimal health of dogs and cats. However, the nutritional needs of dogs and cats are not the same as the nutritional needs of humans. No company can say that their chicken/poultry is absolutely 100% free of beaks, feet, feathers, heads. Our suppliers do not add those parts, we specifically require that they not be included. They would decrease protein quality if they were there in measurable amounts. Tumors should not be there since those birds would be condemned. We use the non-economic parts of chickens that have been through USDA inspection. The advantages of Chicken By-Product Meal are the quality of the protein (quality is measured as biologic value - which is a measure of digestibility and the levels of essential amino acids that it can supply) and the levels of fat and minerals that it supplies - only chicken and egg are judged to be better. Chicken and egg go mostly for human consumption, so that leaves CBPM as the best available source.





> Corn Meal (carbohydrate)
> An excellent source of quick energy, these corn kernels are finely ground to break up the outside covering of each kernel, and then cooked at high temperatures to increase digestibility. Corn generally results in a lower glycemic and insulin response than rice. This can be especially beneficial for senior and overweight pets. Of the many dogs that regularly eat a food containing corn, only a few will develop an allergy to corn.


This is from Diamond:


> Chicken By-Product Meal
> Animal source protein, made up mostly of internal organs such as liver, digestive tract, and kidneys. The intestines are a good source of smooth muscle protein. Fifteen percent of the meal includes meat and bone. No feathers. This ingredient is very digestible and very low in ash.





> Corn Gluten Meal
> The dried residue from corn after the removal of the large part of the starch, gluten, and germ from the processes employed in the manufacture of corn syrup. It is an excellent low ash protein source which is highly digestible.


And this is a study that was performed by the Journal of Animal Science in which Chicken By-Product Meal was found to be an excellent protein source:
http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/83/10/2414

And this is an article about Protein Sources from Tri-Natural Products Inc.:
http://www.trinatural.com/about/article3.php

These are just a sampling of the articles I have read over the years.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

See, now im confused... the link you posted listed all the pros to corn....
but following other links on that same site...


> No wheat, corn, brewers rice, flours and beet pulp - products that are no longer considered consumer-friendly


 http://www.trinatural.com/fromm/gold.php



> Free of wheat, corn, brewers rice, flours and beet pulp – products that are no longer considered consumer-friendly.


 http://www.trinatural.com/fromm/four_star.php
More of their foods that yet again dont have corn in it????
Now im at a loss of words....
If they have all good stuff to say about corn... why dont they use it??

http://www.trinatural.com/active_life/chicken_stars_dog.php
http://www.trinatural.com/active_life/chicken_potatoes_dog.php
http://www.trinatural.com/active_life/chicken_rabbit_dog.php



> We believe that when you blend high quality scientifically based ingredients with imagination and creativity, practical experience, and on sound research, the results will speak for themselves.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> See, now im confused... the link you posted listed all the pros to corn....
> but following other links on that same site...
> http://www.trinatural.com/fromm/gold.php
> 
> ...


Glad you caught that Wimble Woof! Why don't they use Corn if all they have to say about it are good things? It's called "Consumer Appeal" and it's all about what consumers want to buy and the almighty buck. Whatever's going to look good on the label and make consumers want to buy the product- even if it goes against their own research findings.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


> See, now im confused... the link you posted listed all the pros to corn....
> but following other links on that same site...
> http://www.trinatural.com/fromm/gold.php
> 
> ...


I'd say it is a bit of "Smoke and Mirrors"....


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Yes, but if its so good... why do they themselves hop on the band wagon and take it out??? Could it be that although corn is a protien source, they themselves feel its better to go with animal protiens??? 



> When your dog doesnt get enough animal protien as part of his diet, or there is an imbalance of his nutrients, one of more of the following may occur:
> 
> chronic skin and/or ear infections.
> reproductive system, heart, kidney, liver, bladder, thyroid and adrenal glands may be compromised
> ...


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> If you didn't attempt to discredit me, then what is this:
> 
> Seems like it's a stab at discrediting to me.
> 
> ...


I bet I can find some information on the McDonalds web site talking about how good and healthy their products are. Many of the references you stated are from different companies web sites ( and I would rather have the link, frankly and be able to read it myself which is what I usually provide) , are from companies that make products that dont use corn, etc... So I guess I don't get the point. 

I would have more confidence in believing information that is on this link for instance, rather than some sales and marketing info from a manufacturers web site

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/jesse.htm


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> Yes, but if its so good... why do they themselves hop on the band wagon and take it out??? Could it be that although corn is a protien source, they themselves feel its better to go with animal protiens???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh no, I totally agree! I don't see Corn (with the exception of Corn Gluten Meal which is commonly used as a protein source; is it ideal? No, but it is very digestible and there's nothing inherently wrong with it) as a protein source, just a very good _*carbohydrate*_. I too prefer to see animal protein- named animal protein (i.e. Chicken, Chicken Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, etc.). My point was that Corn is a very good carbohydrate and By-Product Meal (preferrably a specific By-Product Meal such as Chicken By-Product Meal) can be a very good protein source (preferrably not the only or main source, but there's nothing wrong with it being used as what I like to call a "support protein"), but both of these seem to get very unfair reputations with consumers.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


> Yes, but if its so good... why do they themselves hop on the band wagon and take it out??? Could it be that although corn is a protien source, they themselves feel its better to go with animal protiens???
> 
> 
> When your dog doesnt get enough animal protien as part of his diet, or there is an imbalance of his nutrients, one of more of the following may occur:
> ...


I think that the manufacturers started running into trouble as the internet became more common, in being able to load up their foods with poor ingredients. Let's face it, prior to web sites by Vet schools, animal research groups, sites like this one, there was no way to get any information on what is good and what is not good in pet foods. Now all you have to do is fire up your browser, do a Google search on dog foods, any you will come up with all kinds of information in a few minutes time. 

How many times do you read on these forums about a new dog owner asking what is a good food for their dog. Now you can go to web sites by Canidae, and Solid Gold, and Wellness, and Innova and learn about all kinds different quality foods that are available. So now companies like Purina and Iams are realising that if they don't start making some better products pretty quick, that more and more consumers are going to be switching away from their products. Little by little, these better foods will become more mainstream. That is why they are coming out with brands like Pro Plan Selects with big banners saying no Ground Corn, no by-products etc.....

http://www.proplan.com/proplanselects/default.aspx?DCMP=ILC-PP-HP&HQS=SmPromo

The uneducated or the people that just don't care will continue to be the junk foods, but they will probably eventually sell alot of their up scale foods too. It probably won't be as good as something like Canidae or Innova, but at least it is a start in the right direction.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Many of the references you stated are from different companies web sites ( and I would rather have the link, frankly and be able to read it myself which is what I usually provide) , are from companies that make products that dont use corn, etc... So I guess I don't get the point.


Not all the links I provided were from different companies websites. You obvisouly missed the one from the Journal of Animal Science which tested different protein sources relating to dogs specifically:
http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/83/10/2414

And the one from the "Great Dane Lady" Linda Arndt who is a Canine Nutritional Consultant:
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/the_corn_myth.htm

My point that some companies formulate their products for purely "consumer appeal" was proven. Most companies cannot discount the research that says nothing but good things about Corn, yet they leave it out of their products to make them more appealing to consumers. Consumers don't want to see Corn in the ingredients list, and a product that doesn't appeal to consumers would cut deeply into the bottom line.



Captbob said:


> I think that the manufacturers started running into trouble as the internet became more common, in being able to load up their foods with poor ingredients. Let's face it, prior to web sites by Vet schools, animal research groups, sites like this one, there was no way to get any information on what is good and what is not good in pet foods. Now all you have to do is fire up your browser, do a Google search on dog foods, any you will come up with all kinds of information in a few minutes time.
> 
> How many times do you read on these forums about a new dog owner asking what is a good food for their dog. Now you can go to web sites by Canidae, and Solid Gold, and Wellness, and Innova and learn about all kinds different quality foods that are available. So now companies like Purina and Iams are realising that if they don't start making some better products pretty quick, that more and more consumers are going to be switching away from their products. Little by little, these better foods will become more mainstream. That is why they are coming out with brands like Pro Plan Selects with big banners saying no Ground Corn, no by-products etc.....
> 
> ...


You can think that way if you want, even if it isn't accurate.


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## mistyinca (Oct 25, 2006)

I tend to agree with Lab Lady. I personally find the dog food project site to be rather biased. And the fact that corn and by-products are not used in many dog foods does seem to be consumer tailored. 

Back to the original post. The thing with Beneful, while I don't consider Beneful a quality food, seems to have all the makings of an urban legend. 

JMHO, FWIW


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> Not all the links I provided were from different companies websites. You obvisouly missed the one from the Journal of Animal Science which tested different protein sources relating to dogs specifically:
> http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/83/10/2414
> 
> And the one from the "Great Dane Lady" Linda Arndt who is a Canine Nutritional Consultant:
> ...


The Great Dane Lady has no formal education in animal nutrition as far as I know. Anyone can call themselves a nutrional consultant. 

We will go round and round about the dog food companies leaving out the corn because of the mass hysteria that dog owners apparently are suffering from that makes them not want to feed their dogs corn for dinner....... It's like the transfat mass hysteria, or saturated fat mass hysteria, apparently, that makes food companies produce products that have reduced amounts of those ingredients. The darn consumer is demanding a product that is free from unhealthy fats. because someone that knew what they were talking about told them it was not healthy eating all that junk. Some nerve.... We should just learn to trust these big companies like Purina, and General Foods, and Del Monte, Best Foods, etc.... since they certainly have our best interests at the top of their agendas............


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> The Great Dane Lady has no formal education in animal nutrition as far as I know. Anyone can call themselves a nutrional consultant.
> 
> We will go round and round about the dog food companies leaving out the corn because of the mass hysteria that dog owners apparently are suffering from that makes them not want to feed their dogs corn for dinner....... It's like the transfat mass hysteria, or saturated fat mass hysteria, apparently, that makes food companies produce products that have reduced amounts of those ingredients. The darn consumer is demanding a product that is free from unhealthy fats. because someone that knew what they were talking about told them it was not healthy eating all that junk. Some nerve.... We should just learn to trust these big companies like Purina, and General Foods, and Del Monte, Best Foods, etc.... since they certainly have our best interests at the top of their agendas............


You can be as sarcastic and inaccurate as you want, comparing two totally different things that have no comparison (saturated/trans fat vs. corn, yeah that's an accurate comparison ) will not get you very far.



mistyinca said:


> Back to the original post. The thing with Beneful, while I don't consider Beneful a quality food, seems to have all the makings of an urban legend.
> 
> JMHO, FWIW


Thanks, I think that too.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

So... Pedigree ( I think) , Ol'roy, Big red, no name brand and so on, are using corn as the primary source of protien right, not as a carb... K..
Is it therefore acceptable to say that these foods are bad, honestly I dont see how the dogs get any proper nutrition from these, sure they live long lives, but I have to say in my experience dogs who are fed these foods, seem dull in appearance, lethargic and frequently have runny eyes, rotten teeth and poor muscle mass. ( I have some ignorant friends who refuse to see that the food makes a difference) Now... some people dont care enough to get into the exact use of each ingredient and the pros and cons of it, so I generally would just reccomend that they steer clear of corn... the way i see it is, if they are looking for food that contains no corn, odds are they are going to end up making a better choice for their dogs.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> So... Pedigree ( I think) , Ol'roy, Big red, no name brand and so on, are using corn as the primary source of protien right, not as a carb... K..
> Is it therefore acceptable to say that these foods are bad, honestly I dont see how the dogs get any proper nutrition from these, sure they live long lives, but I have to say in my experience dogs who are fed these foods, seem dull in appearance, lethargic and frequently have runny eyes, rotten teeth and poor muscle mass. ( I have some ignorant friends who refuse to see that the food makes a difference) Now... some people dont care enough to get into the exact use of each ingredient and the pros and cons of it, so I generally would just reccomend that they steer clear of corn... the way i see it is, if they are looking for food that contains no corn, odds are they are going to end up making a better choice for their dogs.


True, but for those (such as yourself and I) that understand and can comprehend the exact use and pros & cons of each ingredient, there is no reason to avoid Corn that is used correctly. And it is plenty safe to say that it isn't used correctly in those foods you mentioned- yes, I believe they are trying to use it as a primary protein, which it shouldn't be. On the other hand, recommending to steer clear of corn is, in a way, just perpetuating the ignorance and not helping to improve the public perception.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> True, but for those (such as yourself and I) that understand and can comprehend the exact use and pros & cons of each ingredient, there is no reason to avoid Corn that is used correctly. And it is plenty safe to say that it isn't used correctly in those foods you mentioned- yes, I believe they are trying to use it as a primary protein, which it shouldn't be. On the other hand, recommending to steer clear of corn is, in a way, just perpetuating the ignorance and not helping to improve the public perception.


That is flat out wrong.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I'd rather tell someone to avoid corn, than try to explain to them (especially those who just dont care... and alot of people i know are like that) and see them switch their dog from No Name Dog Food to ANYTHING.
If they were to choose ProPlan I'd be thrilled, if they chose Wellness,,,, id be thrilled....its a far step up for the dog either way.
I understand what your saying Lablady, it adds to the hype of corn, doing it this way, but to me any improvment to a dogs health and nutrition is a win for them... and its hard to talk to someone who is completely ignorant of what they are feeding their dog. ( the few times people have come to me asking about dog foods, I have said no corn.!?!?!) 
One person I know switched their dog from No Name Kibble to Authority ( petsmart brand) while not a "good" food in many peoples eyes, its a much better food than the poor dog was eating....


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> I'd rather tell someone to avoid corn, than try to explain to them (especially those who just dont care... and alot of people i know are like that) and see them switch their dog from No Name Dog Food to ANYTHING.
> If they were to choose ProPlan I'd be thrilled, if they chose Wellness,,,, id be thrilled....its a far step up for the dog either way.
> I understand what your saying Lablady, it adds to the hype of corn, doing it this way, but to me any improvment to a dogs health and nutrition is a win for them... and its hard to talk to someone who is completely ignorant of what they are feeding their dog. ( the few times people have come to me asking about dog foods, I have said no corn.!?!?!)
> One person I know switched their dog from No Name Kibble to Authority ( petsmart brand) while not a "good" food in many peoples eyes, its a much better food than the poor dog was eating....


Believe me, I totally understand and that's why instead of trying explain to those sorts of folks, I make it more indirect. For example, my FIL was feeding Dog Chow and instead of trying to explain to him the nuances of Corn, etc., I simply told him to look for a food with a named meat or meat meal (i.e. Chicken, Lamb, Chicken Meal, Lamb Meal, etc.) as the first ingredient. Most likely this will steer those folks into a better food anyway and will have them avoiding "Meat and Bone Meal" and such.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Just wanted everyone to know that Snopes.com is investigating this claim. They also have a response from Purina on their page:
http://www.snopes.com/critters/crusader/beneful.asp
It is sounding more and more like an urban legend...at least on Purina's part.


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## Lab Dad (Feb 5, 2007)

*Purina Dog food*

I just got an email for the doggybling.com site and they have a letter from Purina about the dog food. I was feeding my dog (yellow lab) Purina Indoor complete when expierenced alfotoxin poisoning. We were able to get him to the vet in time but are still nursing him back to health. I would encourage all to go to the site and read the letter from Purina. Hope all is well in your homes.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

For me, the whole thing boils down to this. The recommendations Captbob gave early well, it don't get much better! Personally, if your dog can get use to the "richness" of Innova in the green bag, you just won't find anything better...comparable perhaps-but not any better. Some dogs can't hack it if put on it cold turkey. Get them use to it (or another such as Timberwolf or Eagle Pack) gently by adding just a few kibble to their usual food and then increasing it over a couple of months and they won't have gas and runny poo to deal with. Do it cold turkey and you will. In the long run, foods like those mentioned here and in Captbob's posts are simply the best. I wouldn't feed any Purina products to a rat.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Elijah said:


> For me, the whole thing boils down to this. The recommendations Captbob gave early well, it don't get much better! Personally, if your dog can get use to the "richness" of Innova in the green bag, you just won't find anything better...comparable perhaps-but not any better. Some dogs can't hack it if put on it cold turkey. Get them use to it (or another such as Timberwolf or Eagle Pack) gently by adding just a few kibble to their usual food and then increasing it over a couple of months and they won't have gas and runny poo to deal with. Do it cold turkey and you will. In the long run, foods like those mentioned here and in Captbob's posts are simply the best. I wouldn't feed any Purina products to a rat.


It is your choice to be ignorant, but there are a few quality Purina foods- Pro Plan, Purina ONE, and Exclusive (made by Purina Mills) are among them. Don't knock something unless you've tried it.

Btw, do you have any proof that those foods are "simply the best"? I don't think so...especially not for every dog. In fact, your advise that these foods are "simply the best" and will work for every dog given enough time is actually quite dangerous. If a food is not working, given enough time, it could cause some serious damage to a dog. But, that's right, they're "simply the best" and even the dog with the most horrble coat, goob gunked up in their eyes, loads of yeast in their ears, god-aweful gas and huge plentiful poops will do alright if given 3 more months after the 3 they were already on it!


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

And it's your choice to be an argumentative know it all. I've got socks older than you and don't believe in all my diligent research I can be told anything less than what I've stated. The results are proof of the puddin, my dear. But, to each his own, I reckon.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Elijah said:


> And it's your choice to be an argumentative know it all. I've got socks older than you and don't believe in all my diligent research I can be told anything less than what I've stated. The results are proof of the puddin, my dear.


Really? You've still yet to offer any solid, scientific, thoroughly researched proof that those foods are "simply the best". Don't call me argumentative when I'm simply asking for proof no one has been able to provide. Especially, when I've been able to provide proof (straight from the mouths of the manufacturers of these so-called "better" foods none the less) to the contrary.



> But, to each his own, I reckon.


This is the smartest thing you've said in 2 posts. Btw, you might want to throw those socks out. If they are older than me, I bet there's not much left of them by now- maybe shredds!


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Ladylady or anyone else, would you please tell me how you highlight the quotes of other people'when you put them in your responces . Thanks....


Also, I just lost my 8 year old German Shepherd and it never ate any "Store Brand" commercial dog foods. I gave him foods that had beef,chicken, or lamb as the first ingredient. I steered away form foods with any perservatives or by-products. 

The dog was extremely heathy until he had his last series of vaccinations and three months later died from lymphoma. The vet, who I have used for 30 years and I have extreme confidence in said the he doesn't believe dog foods make any differences and he is a believer that diseases are all in the genes.

When I get another dog, if I get another dog, I will again feed it the best food I can find because it just makes sense to me..


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> It is your choice to be ignorant, but there are a few quality Purina foods- Pro Plan, Purina ONE, and Exclusive (made by Purina Mills) are among them. Don't knock something unless you've tried it.
> 
> Btw, do you have any proof that those foods are "simply the best"? I don't think so...especially not for every dog. In fact, your advise that these foods are "simply the best" and will work for every dog given enough time is actually quite dangerous. If a food is not working, given enough time, it could cause some serious damage to a dog. But, that's right, they're "simply the best" and even the dog with the most horrble coat, goob gunked up in their eyes, loads of yeast in their ears, god-aweful gas and huge plentiful poops will do alright if given 3 more months after the 3 they were already on it!


Since you like to toss around comments to people's posts as "ignorant" amd full of "horse hockey", have you ever considered that your comments might instead, apply to yourself?


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

LL-Here's a good link for you to maybe broaden your horizons. The most important thiing about all this is we must give our pets the very best we can afford and that they will eat. dogs will eat just about anything (especially when you add a bit of pumpkin and yogurt to it!) I wouldn't feet my pet anything that had corn, soybeans or wheat simply because too many are allergic to those ingredients and/or have severe digestive problems with it. Nor would I feed a pet anything with byproducts such as feet, heads, lungs, beaks or feathers or chemical preservatives such as BHA, BHT or Ethoxyquin (which is a rubber preservative). No hulls of any kind should be in ANY commercial dog food nor any slaughterhouse waste products.

Commercial dog food is big business and is an easy way to help provide patients for the vets. There is an enormous profit to be made when a vet suggests such and such a dog food and promotes that which will bring ill health to your dog. I do my own research and don't rely on TV adds or a vets suggestions. I check out the ingredients and if any of the above is an additive, it stays on the shelf.

Most pet food brands are owned by large corporations who would love to get their product advertised in the vet's office and ultimately promoted by the vet himself who is going to follow the party line of the ones who trained him. They only know what the food manufacturers tell them and pass it along to their "customers". It would behoove us all to go behind the vet, the hype about certain dog foods seen on TV, etc and check into it ourselves. We are ultimately responsible for our dogs health and well being and it just "ain't going to come" with ingredients that would end up killing a rhino in time.

Well-enough said. As long as your dog does well on a given product, has a shiny coat, a gleam in his eye, no digestive problems, doesn't scratch himself to death from dry skin or develop a type of cancer as a result of the dead animal products or chemical preservatives in his food-go for it. As for me, my Corgi will only have that which was mentioned in my prior post. There is good info in this link about all this hype if anyone is interested.

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Truth.htm

http://www.preciouspets.org/truth.htm

Oh-as for my socks...they're only beginning to feel good now!! I soak them in a derivative of a well known commercial kibble and it keeps them from tearing apart over the years although they're beginning to itch a lot and have lost their color ,I wouldn't thrown them away for all the tea in China now. I've got some jeans like that too!!


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Since you like to toss around comments to people's posts as "ignorant" amd full of "horse hockey", have you ever considered that your comments might instead, apply to yourself?


Nope, because I don't accept at face value or pass down the ignorance that people have tried to pass along here. Instead, I've done my own solid research to back up my arguments. I've yet to see the same from you or anyone else. You, along with a lot of others tell everyone to avoid this and that ingredient and food, but yet you've failed to supply evidence that the foods and ingredients you claim are the best are actually "better" than the rest and not just tailored for the consumer's eye.

Maybe you can live with your ignorance and that is your choice, but I am not about to. Yes, there are some foods that aren't so great out there (I'll never deny that), but there is also a broader horizion of quality foods than you think or give credit for. I think you would find that to be true if you actually were researching and not just following something some one said- without any proof to back it up.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LabLady101 said:


> Nope, because I don't accept at face value or pass down the ignorance that people have tried to pass along here. Instead, I've done my own solid research to back up my arguments. I've yet to see the same from you or anyone else. You, along with a lot of others tell everyone to avoid this and that ingredient and food, but yet you've failed to supply evidence that the foods and ingredients you claim are the best are actually "better" than the rest and not just tailored for the consumer's eye.
> 
> Maybe you can live with your ignorance and that is your choice, but I am not about to. Yes, there are some foods that aren't so great out there (I'll never deny that), but there is also a broader horizion of quality foods than you think or give credit for. I think you would find that to be true if you actually were researching and not just following something some one said- without any proof to back it up.


And from reading your posts, I haven't seen any proof of anything that would stand up to any kind of scrutiny. It just seems to be that you have adopted your own opinions as facts. That is fine, but it doesn't give you the license to call someone that disagrees with your opinions "ignorant". But if it makes you feel better...........


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Elijah said:


> LL-Here's a good link for you to maybe broaden your horizons. The most important thiing about all this is we must give our pets the very best we can afford and that they will eat. dogs will eat just about anything (especially when you add a bit of pumpkin and yogurt to it!) I wouldn't feet my pet anything that had corn, soybeans or wheat simply because too many are allergic to those ingredients and/or have severe digestive problems with it. Nor would I feed a pet anything with byproducts such as feet, heads, lungs, beaks or feathers or chemical preservatives such as BHA, BHT or Ethoxyquin (which is a rubber preservative). No hulls of any kind should be in ANY commercial dog food nor any slaughterhouse waste products.


You had me up until you got the Corn and By-Products (which is what I assume you're talking about). If you did any research at all, you would find that most of the people that say to avoid these items actually know very little about them and have no research to back up their statements. It's just what they've been told, and it's been passed on so frequently that everyone believes it as fact when in all reality, it is not and could not be further from the truth.

In fact, even most of the "Holistic", "organic", etc. dog food manufacturers recognize the importance of these items (Corn in particular), yet they formulate their food without them. Why? Consumer Appeal, the almighty buck. Don't believe me, ask one of them. They don't want to put something in their product that- although all the research in the world says is in fact a very good and healthy ingredient- people have misconceptions about. They wouldn't be able to sell it, it would hurt the bottom line.

Fwiw, I do agree with you about the chemical preservatives (i.e. BHA, BHT). They are in the dark ages of dog food, and should stay there.



> Commercial dog food is big business and is an easy way to help provide patients for the vets. There is an enormous profit to be made when a vet suggests such and such a dog food and promotes that which will bring ill health to your dog. I do my own research and don't rely on TV adds or a vets suggestions. I check out the ingredients and if any of the above is an additive, it stays on the shelf.


I guess what they say about ignorance being bliss must be true. You obvisouly haven't done that much research into ingredients if you avoid anything with perfectly healthy and beneficial ingredients in it.



> Most pet food brands are owned by large corporations who would love to get their product advertised in the vet's office and ultimately promoted by the vet himself who is going to follow the party line of the ones who trained him. They only know what the food manufacturers tell them and pass it along to their "customers". It would behoove us all to go behind the vet, the hype about certain dog foods seen on TV, etc and check into it ourselves. We are ultimately responsible for our dogs health and well being and it just "ain't going to come" with ingredients that would end up killing a rhino in time.


My vet sells Purina veterinary diets. He has never told me nor has he ever told anyone else what to feed. Suggestions are suggestions and are not orders, requirements, etc. You can take the advise or leave it. 

I also think you should talk with a vet if you think they make loads of profit off of dog food. I can assure it's not the kind of profit you think. In fact, the companies make it hardly worth it to put their display up in the office.

I have checked into the foods advertised. Some are decent (and are better quality than what people give them credit for) while others are not so good (i.e. Beneful, Pedigree, etc.). Advertising has no bearance on what I decide to feed (in fact, that Beneful commercial is really quite annoying!). I have always kept my ear open for word of mouth and then researched the product (including the quality of its ingredients) thorughly to make my own choice.



> Well-enough said. As long as your dog does well on a given product, has a shiny coat, a gleam in his eye, no digestive problems, doesn't scratch himself to death from dry skin or develop a type of cancer as a result of the dead animal products or chemical preservatives in his food-go for it. As for me, my Corgi will only have that which was mentioned in my prior post. There is good info in this link about all this hype if anyone is interested.
> 
> http://www.caberfeidh.com/Truth.htm
> 
> http://www.preciouspets.org/truth.htm


Well, let's see this is easy...the first link is a vote for RAW, which is all good, but you don't learn anything about quality kibble from it. The second link is very misinformed about issues I've stated about before- basically, it's "horse hockey". Not only can't commercial manufacturers use "restaurant greace" BY LAW in their food, that would be considered a "plant" derived fat (since almost all restaurants use Canola Oil, Peanut Oil, or Vegetable Oil of some sort and not Lard/Fat which is derived from animals) and most quality kibbles use "animal" derived fat. Also, scientific studies have proven that the use of road kill, euthanized cats and dogs, etc. in commerical kibble is not happening- they tested negative for the presence of those items. Also, manufacturers BY LAW are not allowed to use what would be considered "condemned" animals. You REALLY have to do more research if you believe that "hogwash".

Btw, API (which the author of the second link is a member) is nothing but a glorified PETA, another animal rights extremist group (or terrorist group if you look really look at it). If you go to their website, you'll figure it out. I bet they may even be collaborating. I don't believe nor do I take anything anyone from those groups say as coming from a credible source. Sorry, you're going to have to try again! 

Also, what do you think meat is? Unless you let your dog loose to kill live prey, all meat is a "dead animal product". 



> Oh-as for my socks...they're only beginning to feel good now!! I soak them in a derivative of a well known commercial kibble and it keeps them from tearing apart over the years although they're beginning to itch a lot and have lost their color ,I wouldn't thrown them away for all the tea in China now. I've got some jeans like that too!!


Well, good for you! I'm glad you're having such good luck with your clothing! My clothing tends to not hold up as well after constantly working with my dogs, grooming, cleaning, cooking, and working, but I'm glad your clothes hold up through all of that!


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Captbob said:


> And from reading your posts, I haven't seen any proof of anything that would stand up to any kind of scrutiny. It just seems to be that you have adopted your own opinions as facts. That is fine, but it doesn't give you the license to call someone that disagrees with your opinions "ignorant". But if it makes you feel better...........


If you can't handle the truth of the research, don't blame me. And that is EXACTLY what ignorance is- not being able to handle the truth and instead of learning, you continue to perpetuate the falsehoods you've been told. Like I said before, I call it what it is. If you want to remain ignorant (and live in that fairy tale world of yours) despite all the research that is out there to disprove what you've been told, then that is your choice. I don't have any problems sleeping at night with the knowledge that I have broader horizons and an open mind. Have a nice day!


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## hisgirl (Feb 12, 2007)

Wow! I'm a new member here and I just bought a bag last week. Thanks so much for posting this. My dogs are fine, but I'm not taking any chances.. it goes straight into the trash. I am so glad i saw this!


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## LatinaC09 (Feb 20, 2007)

hi i'm new here and i was wondering if anyone knew about Purina's Alpo dry dog food. i just started giving it to my dog today. the ingredients look ok but i wanted somebody's opinion on it.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I was going to read through here to see what people suggest as good dog food brands...but there's a lot of arguing and just a lot to read in general...can anyone tel me what brands are good brands...I've always used Purina Beneful (healthy radiance) for the dog and Purina also for my cats, what dog foods do you use?


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

There are many threads in the dog food section discussing almost any kind of food you can think of..
Heres one that answers what some of us feed and why.
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/3921-what-do-you-feed.html


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Thanks...I saw that thread before, but I couldn't find it again. I'm sure I am just so tired I went right past it! (Sorry I am lazy today because of work!) Thanks though! I appreciate it!!


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