# six month old puppy behavior...should we be worried?



## jheavner (Dec 15, 2008)

My wife and I have a six month old intact male Vizsla puppy named Jack. We bought him from a reputable breeder when he was 8 weeks old. He has completed puppy kindergarten and basic puppy training and is scheduled to start an intermediate class in January. He's never destroyed anything, he was a dream to potty train, and he's very friendly to both people and dogs. We had what we thought was a minor incident when he was about 12-14 weeks where he bit my wife when she tried to take something from his mouth. We didn't think much of it at the time but did mention it to our trainer who seemed concerned.

Fast forward to Thanksgiving weekend. Jack was allowed on the sofa but not the bed. I invited him on the bed one night. When I attempted to move him, he growled and snapped. I was able to call him off the bed and that was the end of his being on the bed. A few days later something very similar happened on the sofa. He's now no longer allowed on the sofa. About a week after that we were dremeling his nails. He was an angel until about the halfway point when he freaked out. Usually I hold him and my wife operates the dremel. He was able to get free and when I tried to pick him up, he growled and snapped at me.

At this point we decided to call in a behaviorist. She came out last week and made several observations and recommendations. She said he was resource guarding, which we knew, but she also pointed out that he didn't crave affection the way most dogs would and in fact seemed uncomfortable with a lot of contact. She also said that he was highly agitated and showed no signs of being able to relax. He's always been "mouthy", he is a bird dog, but he's never responded to any of the usual ways to stop puppies from biting. We've tried the high pitched "ow!", green apple spray, crate timeouts, ignoring him, etc. Nothing has stopped the behavior. She left us with "homework" and said she'd be contacting us for status updates.

We've tried to introduce as much structure into his life as we can and we've spent a lot of time working with him, especially around desensitizing him to being handled or having people in his space. It seemed like we were making progress and then he bit both me (trying to remove something from his mouth which we've done a thousand times) and my wife (for grabbing his collar to lead him into his crate...again 1,000 times) yesterday.

Today we spoke to our breeder and she's very concerned and told us this isn't normal behavior. She's offered to do a weekend swap where she takes Jack to evaluate him and we take one of her adult dogs so we can see the normal breed temperament. Our breeder has been very active in his upbringing and we see his littermates a couple times a month. No one else is experiencing this kind of problem. Yes, they are high energy dogs and yes, they can be little terrors but no one else has experienced aggression. Our breeder has even suggested that she take him back and give us another puppy from an upcoming litter this spring.

We love Jack and we're committed to seeing this through but we're also concerned. Our hope has been that this is just "growing pains" and that once his hormones settle down his aggression will as well. I'm sorry for the very long post but we really need help.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

A couple of things come to mind. Resource guarding is averted by teaching object exchanges....you teach the dog to Drop It or Give on command in exchange for something else....you don't TAKE it away from them....they learn to give it up freely. Taking things away only makes resource guarding worse.
Some high prey drive dogs really dislike being handled. I had one that got very nasty at unpredicatable times. He was like that all his life and all my training was for naught. To this day I think something was wired wrong upstairs.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Instead of taking things, play the trading game with him. For touching, touch his collar, or a part of his body, mark it (good, yes, click what ever you use) and give him a treat. Also do nothing in life is free. Other than that, only a person who is seeing the dog can really help you here. I think having your breeder evaluate him may be a good idea.

It seems he has learned that he doesn't have to do what he doesn't want to by biting. Not a good thing.

Another thought, I would have a complete physical done on him, as well as blood work to make sure everything is right there. Have his thyroid checked, check for endocrine disorders, make sure nothing is hurting him.


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

It's good that your breeder has maintained such close contact with you. That's a sign of a very good breeder. I think you might want to let her take him for a weekend and see what she thinks.

What kind of homework did the behaviorist give you to work on with him?


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## jheavner (Dec 15, 2008)

The behaviorist recommended a thyroid screen and we plan to do that in the near future. We have always attempted to trade (usually food) for whatever he has but I think, and the behaviorist agrees, that he's figured out it's a bribe. She's instructed us to cut the treats down significantly and use more praise. Jack is not crazy about the new tactic.

We are working on desensitizing him so we'll see how that works out. In a session on Friday my wife was able to dremel one of his nails (very slowly with a lot of work) while I clicked and gave him cheese.

I think he bit me yesterday because he was on the stairs in an elevated position and I came into his space. I did not have something to trade him but he had a potentially dangerous item in his mouth (sharp glass Christmas tree ornament) and I needed to get it out. 

I don't know if you can teach a dog to relax but we've become very adamant that nothing good happens unless he's reasonably calm. He's very recently started rolling over to have his belly rubbed but he seems very conflicted. He wants his belly rubbed but he will mouth the entire time, give the whale eye, and his legs remain stiff/locked. I'm not sure if we should avoid contact while he's clearly anxious or if the reward of the belly rub will help.

Our homework is really getting and maintaining his attention without bribing him. It's a complete departure from the "shoveling" technique that both of our training courses taught. She warned us that it's very slow and very painful. We stood outside in the cold rain last week for 20 minutes because he would not sit and he can't come in until he sits. It can take 45 minutes to leave the house for a walk because he has to be calm to have the collar put on, and he has to sit and remain sitting until he's invited out. It's stuff like that where he learns that we control the resources and we're not just baiting him into doing something (btw, he's FANTASTIC at doing anything when there's a treat to be had).

I think the hope is that with a lot of structure, understanding of where his bread is buttered, and giving him less attention will help his behavior. He'll be 7 months old on Christmas day. My understanding is that he's in the prime of his terror behavior. We're not going to make any decisions about his future until he gets through this developmental phase.


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## babysweet (Dec 11, 2008)

It sounds to me like you have a genetically wired dominant dog on your hands. There also may be something else going on (occasionally, one does see a dog that's just not "right," just like in people). I agree with the previous posters, a veterinary check is required, and give the behaviourist's plan some time to work. However, you do have to be realistic - this is a dog you're going to be living with for the next 10-15 years.

If this is simply his personality, and it turns into a case of management, are you prepared for that?

If you return the dog to the breeder, what are her intentions with him? Will she euthanize him? Or will she find an owner who is more dominant, more experienced and better able to manage this dog?

The other concern is you didn't say whether you and your SO have children, but are you planning on doing so? This is not a dog I would recommend around children, IMO. The risk is just too great, particularly with such high dominance and anxiety. If being on the stairs is enough to make him feel he has the right to bite you, how well will a child that he towers over fare?

I'm not trying to be the wet blanket here... I'm really, truly not. There's still a good possibility that you can turn this around. But the reality of the situation is that if he is showing these behaviours at this young age, he is most likely going to require some sort of management for the remainder of his life.

My personal course of action would be to stick with the behaviourists plan and try to get a feel for what she thinks about the situation. If things don't improve, or you don't feel that they're improving the way you would like, take the breeder's offer of the weekend trade. She's obviously experienced (from what you've described, I think everyone here would agree you picked your breeder wisely) and can give you another opinion. It will also give you a comparison. At that point you can make your decision.

I also want to point out that I run a special needs rescue, and many of the dogs we get in come with aggression issues. The only thing worse than a dog losing its home is a dog who is kept in a home that doesn't suit it. The last cocker spaniel we took in had lived in a basement for over a year because it nipped a child in the house who pulled on his VERY infected ear. No skin was broken, no bruise - and yet the dog was deemed aggressive and relegated to the basement. He came to us matted, reeking, overweight and miserable - and with an untreated ear infection.

Many dogs in this position of "management" end up being looked upon as a burden by their family, and resentment follows. I don't believe these people meant to do harm to their dog, but they didn't want to be seen as the type of people who would just "dump" a dog - and didn't see any other option. Of course, they also didn't seek any outside help, but these weren't exactly dog educated people...

Sorry for the rambling... I suppose what I'm trying to say is just make sure your decision is made after proper thought and consideration - including consultation with proper experts.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> =jheavner;432012] He's always been "mouthy", he is a bird dog, but he's never responded to any of the usual ways to stop puppies from biting. We've tried the high pitched "ow!", green apple spray, crate timeouts, ignoring him, etc. Nothing has stopped the behavior.


Since he's a resource guarder, when he attempts to mouth you, leave the room and completely ignore him. As the provider of all good things, you are, in effect, removing his highest resource - you. 




> We've tried to introduce as much structure into his life as we can and we've spent a lot of time working with him, especially around desensitizing him to being handled or having people in his space. It seemed like we were making progress and then he bit both me (trying to remove something from his mouth which we've done a thousand times) and my wife (for grabbing his collar to lead him into his crate...again 1,000 times) yesterday.


A suggestion: stop taking things from his mouth, and never, ever grab a dog's collar. That is very confrontational to a dog, even one who has no issues. If you must lead him to his crate, then put a tab on his collar (acts like a mini leash), so you can hold that instead of grabbing his actual collar. 



> Today we spoke to our breeder and she's very concerned and told us this isn't normal behavior. She's offered to do a weekend swap where she takes Jack to evaluate him and we take one of her adult dogs so we can see the normal breed temperament. Our breeder has been very active in his upbringing and we see his littermates a couple times a month. No one else is experiencing this kind of problem. Yes, they are high energy dogs and yes, they can be little terrors but no one else has experienced aggression. Our breeder has even suggested that she take him back and give us another puppy from an upcoming litter this spring.


Excellent idea, and thank your lucky stars for this breeder! 



> We love Jack and we're committed to seeing this through but we're also concerned. Our hope has been that this is just "growing pains" and that once his hormones settle down his aggression will as well. I'm sorry for the very long post but we really need help.


I do hope things work out, but keep in mind that testosterone is at the highest level between 10 months and about 18 months or so, in addition to the fact that at age 2 is when the dog is who he is (never-seen-before aggression can show up).


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## jheavner (Dec 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the responses!

Someone asked if we have children. Currently the answer is no but we hope to have children in the next couple of years so having a dog that is child friendly is critical. Someone else mentioned walking away from him when he mouths. We've tried that. I feel like we've tried everything. He has shown signs of having a "soft mouth" and while I know that mouthing a human is a no-no, I'm debating attacking this problem on both fronts.

I'm still struggling to label this dog dominant. He was the biggest puppy in his litter but he was also the slowest and the clumsiest and was picked on a lot by his littermates. On the other hand, he greets other dogs as an alpha would and the only dogs he ever submits to are his littermates. With us it's a very mixed bag. One moment he's afraid of his shadow and the next moment he's full of confidence. One moment his body language says, "I realize you're the boss and I'm cool with that," and the next he's willfully breaking rules and challenging us. The fact that he is so inconsistent makes me hope that this is hormones.

We spoke to our breeder last night and she's going to take him this weekend and we're going to take her two adult males. She did admit that she didn't want the adult males around when she evaluated him. I suspected that's why she asked us to take both but I was surprised she admitted it.

Last night Jack's behavior was good. We walked a new route and he was timid at times and looked to me for response queues. He was very willing to work during his training session and he accepted his quiet time without a fuss. He played by himself without trying to bully us or challenge rules. He did try to get on the sofa but instead of boldly trying to climb on me, he approached from the side and gave very good body queues.

I've had a lot of experience working with and training gun dogs but all of those dogs were adults and they were all strictly working dogs, they were never treated as pets. This was also 15-20 years ago and the training methods we used, while still used for gun dogs, aren't used much for house pets. Jack is going to be a magnificent dog and I think he would make an excellent working dog. I'm just hopeful that we can make him a pet first and foremost. I've got to say raising a puppy to be a pet is a lot harder than training a dog to do what comes naturally to it.


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

Let us know how the weekend goes. I'm curious to hear what your breeder has to say.


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## loratliff (Feb 7, 2008)

I spent a lot of time with Vizslas and this is certainly not normal behavior. The mouthiness is not unheard of, but the aggression is definitely uncommon. All of the Vizslas I've been around have been friendly, if not slightly aloof, and generally intelligent, wiling dogs.

I definitely encourage you to send him back to the breeder for a weekend and get her opinion. She knows her dogs best and can tell you for certain what factors may be playing a role in Jack's behavior. Also, I think her reasoning behind sending the two males to your home as well as to do with the fact that them being around could make Jack even more aggressive, especially since he's coming into sexual maturity. Not having them around will give her a much better show at a fair evaluation.

Also, definitely have your vet do a thorough work-up - full blood panel, everything, etc. Physical problems can manifest themselves in more ways than you would think.

Keep us posted!


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Sorry I haven't been able to offer any helpful advice as I've no experience with this sort of situation, but I've been keeping an eye on the thread and also awaiting an update regarding what your breeder says.


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## unclearthur (Dec 8, 2008)

Have you tried treating/training him like you did your old gun dogs 15-20 years ago, rather than 'as a pet'? Some of the older style methods may be unfashionable but he seems to have dominance problems and the old methods left little question about who was in charge. 'Leaving the room' when he mouths doesn't tell him who the pack leader is. Right now it sounds like he doesn't respect you. I don't mean to be glib but if the dog is not 100% submissive to you all the time, regardless of circumstances, you will never be able to trust him around your kids.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

I don't have much positive to say about this dog. I see the dog as one with a serious mental problem. I don't know what caused it and don't really care. I don't see him ever being a good family dog. I don't see you or your family ever having a good relationship with him. I see a lot more bad times than good times in the years ahead. IF he can be rehabilitated it will take a very long time and an awful lot of work.

This dog will never be happy nor will you as long as he is living with you. You are not happy now. I don't think you want this to go on for years. I would let the breeder take the dog for a weekend and see what she says. Unless she thinks it's a pretty easy fix (which I doubt), I would take her up on the new puppy in the spring. 2 years from now you will be very glad you did. I don't think there is any way you will have this present dog 2 years from now. 

This is not a hormone problem and its not growing pains. I base my conclusions not only on what you say but what the breeder and behaviorist said. You are very lucky to have this breeder.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jheavner
*
I've had a lot of experience working with and training gun dogs but all of those dogs were adults and they were all strictly working dogs, they were never treated as pets. This was also 15-20 years ago and the training methods we used, while still used for gun dogs, aren't used much for house pets. Jack is going to be a magnificent dog and I think he would make an excellent working dog. I'm just hopeful that we can make him a pet first and foremost. I've got to say raising a puppy to be a pet is a lot harder than training a dog to do what comes naturally to it.*

Well if you think he will make an excellent working dog why are you not starting some field work now, with a pup it's easy all you need is land to walk him on and just let him go and see what kind of drives he has, I spent 14 years building and campaigning bird-dogs from puppies to FCs and most were started very young and I never had an FC that did not live in a home. I know there was an attitude that hunting dogs should not be pets and definitely not kept in a house. Well 45 yrs ago it was much worse and quite frankly a stupid program. If you start your puppy in the field it will be mentally a big plus as other trapdoors in his mind will be popping open. Kinda gives dog something else to think about. Living in homes hunting dogs bond better. That being said, rely on breeder and and behaviorist as they are there to see your pup. Us forum people mean well but we are not privy to what is needed compared to the people who actually see your pup. As usual my opinion only.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Whenever I read something like this I have more questions than answers. I cannot offer advice and it would be inappropriate of me to do so. 

This may be a situation where this particular dog would never work out with this particular owner but would work out for someone else. 

From the posts I cannot tell the level of experience the owner has with dogs or this breed of dog. I cannot tell if the owner may be triggering the behavior he finds undesirable. 

This situation is, IMO, beyond the scope of an internet forum. 

BTW I don't use the word "dominance" when dealing with dogs. I don't believe a 6 mos old dog is trying to dominate anyone. If there is ANYTHING I am getting out of this it MIGHT be fear aggression. The next question would be where the fear eminated from based on the information shared so far. 

Like I said.. more questions than answers.


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## jheavner (Dec 15, 2008)

Sorry for being away for so long but between the holidays and my work travel schedule it's been difficult.

We traded dogs with the breeder for a weekend. We noticed quite a difference in personality between our dog and the dog that stayed with us. Jack isn't affection driven nor is he much of a tail wagger. The dog that stayed with us, Owen, was as happy a dog as one could imagine and even though we were strangers he wanted to be curled up with us all the time. The breeder's comments were generally positive. She did think that he's a different kind of dog and maybe not what we were expecting in terms of temperament but she didn't see signs of resource guarding or aggression. She told us to give him more exercise. She also said he didn't know his name or the "come" command (more on that in a bit) and we need to work on that.

We've also hired a trainer for him that has experience with dealing with some of these problems. Our behaviorist isn't really there for hands-on work so this supplements the information the behaviorist gives us. She noted that he was fairly skittish upon being approached and would tolerate handling but stressed at being touched. She did see signs of resource guarding (standing over toys, putting his foot on things). She said he understands commands quite well but there are times that he just kind of shuts down. At one point she was trying to get him in a down. He wouldn't do it so she put his lead on and restricted his movement. Still wouldn't do it. He turned away as much as possible and wouldn't make eye contact. We waited for probably 5 minutes. Finally she decided to bait him with a treat. He still wouldn't go down but he did sit for a second. She said he was really stressed out and was going to take what she got. He had been great just minutes before and was fine shortly afterwards. She said he knew his name and the "Come" command perfectly well and that those things will improve as he realizes he has to listen. She emphasized working on desensitization and thought that due to his age she thinks he can make a lot of progress.

We had a follow up visit from the behaviorist last week. She said she'd been really "worried" about us but thought we'd made remarkable progress.

We did have an incident last Sunday. We had him out all day and he was wiped out. He came home and napped for several hours, we actually napped together on his bed and he seemed happy about it. When he woke up for dinner he was a little wild eyed and skittish. My wife wanted to give him a bath (he was filthy) but I warned her it wasn't the best time. She said that we'd spent the entire day catering to him and she was giving him a bath. She tried to pick him up and he growled. She made him go down, he did, she praised him and gave him some hot dog, and then let him play with a toy for several minutes. When he seemed a little more relaxed she tried again and again he growled. She got frustrated and upset and gave up.

Someone mentioned that our dog doesn't seem to be dominant but was showing fear aggression. I completely agree with that. His personality changed dramatically just before the six month mark and he became fearful of almost everything. We're trying to be patient and not not comfort him when he's fearful of something.

Someone else mentioned doing more traditional gun dog training. We employed a lot of positive punishment training methods and I'm worried that if he's fearful or anxious it could make him worse. We also live around DC and field training might be tough.

We've set a date of March 1 to make a decision. Our breeder has agreed to give us another puppy from an upcoming litter if we decide the situation will not work out and she's promised that she will either keep Jack herself or place him with a friend of hers that actually takes in troubled Viszlas.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Take a new puppy. I think this one is not suited for you. It will be an uphill battle.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

I'd suggest you get a new puppy and work consistently from day with with a trainer and behaviorist to ensure this one grows up with good manners. I'm glad the breeder is being good about this. I'm sure someone with a ton of dog experience can manage to get him to come round but I wouldn't want to try to do it - and I don't think anyone without a ton of experience could. Good luck and let us know what you decide


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## unclearthur (Dec 8, 2008)

Growling at your wife? Its a no-brainer - take the new puppy !


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## jheavner (Dec 15, 2008)

I would probably take the new puppy as well but even with all his warts we've grown very attached to him (especially my wife) and as much as she wanted to get a puppy when we got him, she now realizes how much work it really is and I think the idea of starting over again is daunting.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

Do you have the money to hire a behaviourist to work with you for a long time? A trainer as well? Maybe send the dog away to a training school? If you want to keep him, I really think you need to figure out a way to get him in hand so he isn't aggressive in any way whatsoever.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

jheavner said:


> I would probably take the new puppy as well but even with all his warts we've grown very attached to him (especially my wife) and as much as she wanted to get a puppy when we got him, she now realizes how much work it really is and I think the idea of starting over again is daunting.


I think keeping this dog would be daunting. Not all dogs are this hard. In fact it can be quite easy. Better now then later. If you don't control the situation it will just get worst.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

What you describe sounds, in many ways, like my Golden puppy. He was independent to a fault and not always a pleasant little guy to have around. It's silly to try to assess your pup's behavior over the internet, but I'll try to give you some things to think about and reference them with my dog's behavior. What you describe sounds like it is still within the normal range for puppy antics.

What I saw in my pup was not aggression or dominance. Aggressive behavior yes, but it seemed more to be about a highly excitable puppy with no internal governor, or one that functioned poorly. He would get so amped up, so quickly, that play aggression would turn into real biting. He also didn't have much use for people so any sort of imposition on his behavior would induce a tantrum.

To illustrate my over-excitement hypothesis: even things he enjoyed immensely would trigger the behavior. Toweling, brushing, and playing with his retrieving dummy would turn into a war. He'd bring the bumper and give it easily, but as soon as it was in my hand he'd go berserkers. In that case, it didn't look like not resource guarding, but rather off-the-hook prey/play drive. I think it is possible that your pup's fear responses may even be tied to excitement. When a dog is near the upper limits of a highly excited state, he is on the cusp of a fight/flight response. Any additional stimulation can swing him one way or the other.

So the strategy with _my pup_ was 2-pronged. I had to develop his desire for praise, and extinguish his more obnoxious behaviors. At a certain point in a pup's life, I cease to care about the underlying causes of his behavior. Obnoxious behaviors just have to go away so we can move on to having a reasonably normal existence. I believe in being as gentle as possible, but as harsh as necessary. Some dogs understand carrot vs. stick better than they understand carrot vs. no carrot. We had a few "come to Jesus meetings" but we also developed a strong bond. There's always drama involved when the unstoppable force (him) meets the immovable object (me). He is now a very affectionate goofball who is happier within his own skin. I have a permanent wet spot on my knee where he rests his head when I type on the computer. If I stop petting him for a long time, he "helps" me type.

I'm not saying whether you should keep him or send him back, but if you choose the former you should understand you'll have your work cut out. It can seem like a 2nd full time job sometimes. I'm also not telling you to fire the behaviorist and start goin' Marine DI on the pup. If the behaviorist is making real progress, then keep at it. I do, however, object to the long distance assessment that he'll never be any good.


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## kkvizslamom (Oct 23, 2012)

I know this thread is old...but what ever happened with your dog? I have a 7 month old vizsla that has all the same qualities that you are describing.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

The OP has not been active on the forum since they posted this thread.


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## kkvizslamom (Oct 23, 2012)

oh okay. thank you.


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