# The Stud Dog Thread



## Xeph

Mirada will be 2 years old this coming January, and the plan is to breed her LATE next year (as in, close to her THIRD birthday), or in the Spring/Summer of 2013. My breeder and I have started looking at stud dogs so we can start researching pedigrees and good line combinations for Mogwai. We are looking at both genotype and phenotype (how the dogs match genetically as well as how they match physically), and I wanted to share the process with you guys 

We currently have 4 candidates, and the reasons for our (mostly my) choices, as well as the prospective pedigree are listed below each picture. And before anybody freaks out (those who may be new to the forum) Mirada WILL have her final OFA's taken care of before breeding. These are the first two, will post the second two later.

First up, GCh Amari's Bandit of Broadcreek x Devine's Gunpowder N Lead 








Pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=687838&modir=654701

Bandit's OFA Status is OFA Good Elbows Normal

Bandit is a dog I've admired for awhile, and I had the pleasure of being benched next to him and his family during the National Dog Show in Philadelphia last year. A HUGE sticking point for me is a dog's temperament, and so getting to meet Bandit was a huge plus for me.

He spent hours and hours at the dog show and was an absolute gentleman with people. If his handler put him away, he curled up and went to sleep. If his handler wanted to take him out to see him, he came out happily, and turned on the charm. He is correctly aloof with strangers, but is also gentle with children, and seems to know he must be more careful around them. He is very focused on the task at hand and is unwavering in that focus.

Physically what he brings to the table is a shorter loin, tighter, more compact feet, better ligamentation, more bone, more substance (better ribbing primarily), and a better head (Mirada is lacking in underjaw). His color is good, as is the color behind him. He also carries more coat on himself and in his pedigree than Mirada does, and he has stronger nerve than Mirada does.

What Mirada could help Bandit with is a longer croup, a better layback of shoulder, deeper color, more forechest, and better follow through in the rear. She also has a stronger, higher wither, and, in my opinion, a stronger back. 

Hopefully I would maintain the amount of rear Mirada has, as well as her own drive (likely I would be adding drive if Bandit is used). Both dogs ENJOY working and are highly biddable, but that "harder" temperament Bandit should bring to the table is what we're looking for.

The biggest con I could think of with this breeding is the possibility of losing Mirada's front. While you always run that risk with any breeding (fronts are the easiest thing to lose, and the hardest to get back), due to Bandit's German breeding, the possibility is increased. German dogs tend not to have as good a shoulder lay back as some American dogs do (very straight, short upper arms, and pushed forward fronts). While Mirada's upper arm could be a bit longer (for more reach), her lay back is nice, and the angulation of the blade isn't steep.

Next up: Ch Longs Peak Travel'n Man Talimar x Devine's Gunpowder N Lead 








Pedigree:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=708660&modir=654701

Ricky's OFA Status is OFA Good Elbows Normal At Risk for DM

I was cruising websites to look at stud dogs, and I came upon this boy and just about DIED! Biggest CON for this dog right now is the fact that he is in California >.< For ME that's a problem because improving nerve is #1 on my priority list right now, so while he's gorgeous, that makes me hesitant. With his DM at risk status, it does mean just that....at risk...so he could end up with it, he could not. Mirada will be DM tested prior to breeding.

All that aside, the pros for breeding to Ricky are improved bone, stronger underjaw, firmer ligamentation, and a bit more coat. In addition to that, pedigree wise there would be FIVE Grand Victors/Victrixes in the first 4 Generations. GVx Cookie, GV Boss, Canadian GVx Guido, Am/Can GV Tuffy, GV Max

Both Mirada and Ricky are long in loin, which is being kept in consideration, however the grandparents on both sides are shorter in line, and that trend does continue throughout, so while the potential for puppies that are too long is there, I'm trying to keep in mind the influence that grandparents have on genetics. Though Mirada was purchased from the midwest, the bottom half of her pedigree is entirely west coast breeding, so there is good potential for a genetic match there. Ricky also has a lovely long properly sloping croup, and though for my tastes he is overangulated, for the sake of *balance*, it is a tool I need to keep in my box, and again, using the earlier generations of the pedigree, that balance should be available to me.

I think Mirada could bring a little more elegance to the table, and Ricky's front may be the tiniest bit pushed forward, so again, improvement in layback. I do think Ricky has a slightly longer upper arm than she does. We would DEFINITELY be keeping that beautiful forechest Mirada has, as well as maintaining (if not deepening) color and pigment, and I should get a shorter hock (Mirada is long).

To reiterate on the cons: DM At Risk for Ricky, unable to meet (so unsure of temperament) possibility of puppies being too long, possibility of puppies being overangulated.

That's all for now...hubby and I are going out for a late anniversary celebration dinner, so I'll post the other two when we get back


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## sassafras

I love it when people post stuff like this. It's fascinating to me.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

I'd go with Bandit, he is a lovely dog. And no I am not being bias because I know the owners (Broadcreek). I know I am jumping the gun and you are just considering them lol. I like Ricky as well though, I like sable GSDs.


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## Xeph

I still have to post the other two xD (which I'm preparing to do...I think you'll like them). I may be talking with Ricky's owner tonight.


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## RaeganW

I'm still rooting for Ricky, and I think you could get some really great puppies out of that (though what the hell do I know) with a type that I find really pleasing, but I think you could also get some Dachshund puppies out of that (long & low). Bandit is short and has more leg under him(?) and strikes me as safer, more conservative.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Bandit has a real strong rear on him, he doesn't slip and slide every time he moves (trust me I have seen some that do), big plus his is not a ground hugger lol, but I know you would never be looking at one of those. Bandit is a dog that looks like he can actually work, and he actually can. He doesn't look like he is going to fall over with the slightest of push to him (which I have also seen some of those). I didn't know he got his GCH, as I thought they stopped showing him as he kept losing to some really bad dogs.

As for Ricky he is also a nice dog, but I can only say so much from a picture, as I have never seen this dog in person (never been to Cali). I don't really like his head, but I can't explain why, just something about it is iffy for me. But other than that he is a nice dog. Nice to see something other than a saddle back or blanket back being shown in conformation. Although I am seeing some sables and bi's, but they are not winning.


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## Xeph

These boys aren't posted in any particular order of preference, just so people are aware 

Here's breeding #3! Ch Lorien's Patrón x Devine's Gunpowder N Lead








Pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=695643&modir=654701

Patron's OFA Status OFA Excellent Elbows Normal Normal for Degenerative Myelopathy

The things I love about this potential breeding are that I should get the substance I want with a shorter loin, as well as a nice big head with a GREAT underjaw (Patron has a beautiful head and I can find a head shot if anybody is interested). He has a nice, long, correctly sloping croup, good low tail set and strong topline. His bone is excellent, nice strong pasterns, SHORT hocks (very correct, Mirada is long in hock), beautiful plush coat, and a nice fore assembly. He again has more rear than Mirada does, and while the top half of his pedigree also carries rear, the bottom half (which I ADORE, his mother was BEAUTIFUL) has more moderation and a bit of the lower stationed style I prefer.

Mirada would bring richer color to the table, with pigment being maintained. She also has a higher wither and a better "set of neck" (more proper carriage) and a smoother turn of stifle (I feel Patron is a bit angular). Mirada would bring more forechest into the mix (it is consistent within her pedigree as well).

Cons to this litter: Line bred on R-Man and Sweetheart Deal. There is nothing inherently wrong with Sweetheart Deal, it's just near impossible NOT to linebreed on that dog, and it's a concern in regards to genetic bottle necking. R-Man is another story. He died young....and nobody knows of what. Nobody ever said. I find that highly concerning, and so worry about linebreeding. Patron's sire, Antonio, also died at age 7 (cause IS known, but I do not recall what at this point, and do not want to give incorrect info).

Structurally, there is the chance that I could get puppies with too much rear, and with HUGE ears. While both Mirada and Patron have beautiful ear sets, they have huge ears, and Patron's ears are interestingly shaped.

And breeding #4 Ch GretchAnya's Jack Daniels Single Barrel x Devine's Gunpowder N Lead








Pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=695941&modir=654701

JD's OFA Status is OFA Good Elbows Normal

Things I love about JD? #1 I met him too, back in Wisconsin. Wonderful temperament, properly aloof without being shy or aggressive. He is short coupled, streamlined, has more coat than the picture shows, beautiful pasterns, great ligamentation, TIGHT correct feet, excellent bone (for his size) and short hocks. He does not have a lot of rear and is overall a very moderate and "honest" dog (basically what you see is what you get). A downside to JD is that he is not a large boy. He's in the middle of the standard. I could get a bit more substance, but not the size.

Mirada could potentially bring more rear into the picture, though heads would be a tossup, as while JD has a masculine head, and the same is behind him, the lack of SIZE of skull may not impart what I want in the puppies. Both dogs have wonderfully high withers and long croups, but JD's is a bit steeper than Mirada. Fronts SHOULD be able to be maintained, and hopefully that prosternum would shine through (I have not seen JD lately, but when I saw him he did not have a lot of forechest).

Other concerns about this litter are that I would be (again) linebreeding on R-Man and Sweetheart Deal in the 5th generation on both sides of the pedigree. In addition to that, there would be line breeding in the 6th generation and farther back, as JD's great grandfather is a litter brother to Dallas (Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes), so that could really throw a wrench in things. In terms of breedtype, JD is my favorite, but potentially not the best choice.

JD and Bandit are most accessible to me, with JD being in New Hampshire, and Bandit being in Maryland.

There's a 5th potential boy, but I'm going to hold off on sharing him for now  So there ya go, the beginnings of the stud search!


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Ooh I like JD. But more importantly, which one does Mirada like lol?


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## begemot

I think Ricky is drop-dead gorgeous! That said, to my eye it looks like Bandit is a better counter-point to Mirada, and I think it's important to have seen the temperament of the dog. And I think you're right to be concerned about line-breeding.


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## Xeph

> And I think you're right to be concerned about line-breeding.


Just to expound a bit, I am not concerned about ALL linebreeding. It is a useful (and necessary) tool. My concern on linebreeding is largely focused on dogs that have died young, and dogs that have died and cause of death is unknown (either because the breeder/owner was unwilling to share, because the vet found no cause, or because a necropsy was not done, which to me kind of falls under the first thing mentioned).

GV Caraland's Unlimited "Max" who would be in the pedigree involving Ricky and Mirada, died at age 5 of cancer. I'm going to do more digging into his progeny and the like, however, because he is not being linebred on, it is not as high a concern as it is with R-Man, who has an unknown cause of death.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

begemot said:


> I think Ricky is drop-dead gorgeous! That said, to my eye it looks like Bandit is a better counter-point to Mirada, and I think it's important to have seen the temperament of the dog. And I think you're right to be concerned about line-breeding.


Line breeding isn't always a bad thing, line breeding multiple generations is, but not one generation. That said, you really have to research the genetics of a line to do it right. Our latest bulldog litter is linebred, and we have stunning results.


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## Xeph

I get the feeling begemot knows, but it is always good to expand on the thoughts we have for those that may not know 

It's the same with this thread as a whole. When you're working to breed *correctly* (and I know you know this Chaos), a lot of thought and study goes into the breeding. You should be looking for balance. "More of this, less of that, this is ok, so let's try to maintain it."

The thread would be USELESS (IMO) if I didn't share WHY I was looking at these boys, and what I hoped to accomplish with the breedings.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Xeph said:


> I get the feeling begemot knows, but it is always good to expand on the thoughts we have for those that may not know


Yeah I am sure also, we were typing at the same time, so I did not see your post, but did get a alert from my messenger, as I was typing.

That is what we were looking at when choosing a stud for Roomba, finally settled on a dog that would compliment Roomba, add a little more bone, a better tail, complimenting temperament, keep the compact body, and not lose Roomba's gorgeous topline, lovely English head, gorgeous front, etc, etc. This is an English breeding, so they do have a different style to them then American, which is why it is hard to finish them unless you only go to breeder judges, all breed's just don't know what to do with them. This isn't set in stone though, my girls have done well under some all breed judges, but do way better under breeder judges. Yes it is line bred, but I love the puppies we have gotten, and can't wait to see them in person in a couple weeks.


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## Xeph

> That is what we were looking at when choosing a stud for Roomba


Best name for a Bulldog ever.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Xeph said:


> Best name for a Bulldog ever.


She basically picked her name, she would scurry across the floor and run under my bed and pick up all the dust as a puppy, and one day she pulled out a blue ribbon from under my bed, so there was her show name "clean sweep".


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## Keechak

I will comment on things that I have already mentioned on FB but mention them here for the world to see lol. Take it as you will from an Aussie owner :wink: (and bear with me if I re-mention things you've already said)

I like JD overall the most, he's got a great rear, nice topline, nice feet, overall nice, he however doesn't have he mass I like to see in a male, I think your smart to be cautious of his pedigree

Patron, I'm kinda on the fence about, I LOVE his topline but he's got too much rear for my personal taste, and not loving his front tho I really like his head from the side view.


Ricky, eh I don't like. Too long and low head looks too long he's got a good topline and croup but that's all I'm liking.

Bandit, I think is your best pick. I like his overall masculenity he's got a great moderate rear, great looking head nice topline croup could be a bit more angled but not too bad, He's my pick of these boys.


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## MissMutt

My order: 1 and 4 tied - 2 - 3. There is something I really like about the way JD looks (love his pasterns and turn of stifle), but I can see what you mean about JD not having a lot of chest and the size could definitely be an issue. I do not like Ricky's head very much and it might be the stack, but Patron looks extreme to me. Not sure what you're seeing wrong with Bandit's front (or is it just the fronts in his pedigree that are the problem?).. looks like he's a little short on forechest but he doesn't look to have a bad layback.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Xeph said:


> Best name for a Bulldog ever.


Also if you like Roomba, the stud's name is Lumpy. Since he was a singleton, Lumpy was well lumpy, the jokingly say that he ate the rest of the litter.


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## Xeph

> Patron looks extreme to me.


He is. I need to keep the cleanliness in the rear that Mirada's got (and a dog with a lot of rear CAN be clean if the ligamentation is proper), however, I cannot keep breeding "Moderate to Moderate", as I will lose all the rear I've got at present. I can promise that there are much more extreme dogs than Patron, though xD And the fact that he's holding his hocks straight in a stack without handler help tells me his ligaments are much better than those of many dogs. It's something I look at when I examine more extreme animals.



> but I can see what you mean about JD not having a lot of chest and the size could definitely be an issue.


Just for the sake of fairness, that picture is of a dog under two years old (20 months), so he could (should) be much different now. I will say though, that I saw pictures of his puppies last night, and unfortunately was not at all impressed :-/

I like Ricky because I personally prefer a low stationed dog. I do not like a dog with a ton of leg. Do I want Dachshunds? No. But leggy is much more unappealing to me (Like Patron's sire...I will admit I really didn't care for his build at all).



> Not sure what you're seeing wrong with Bandit's front


Seen him in person. He lacks reach. So I'd be breeding to a male that lacks reach, and dogs behind him that don't have the most spectacular fronts.


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## waterbaby

This is cool, Xeph. Thanks for doing this. It's interesting to see all the aspects you have to consider. 

In my completely uneducated opinion (cuz I know you want it...), I like (1) Bandit, (2) Patron, (3) JD, and (4) Ricky.

I actually like JD the most, but I also know that I don't like the way GSDs are supposed to look (just personal preference, no good reason) and it seems like Mirada could use some heavier bone and JD wouldn't really provide that for her. Bandit is just gorgeous period and would really complement Mirada in the right places. Patron I feel like I should like more because when I look closely, he looks really nice, but I just kind of pass over him. And Ricky has nice color, but seems ... long.



> Ooh I like JD. But more importantly, which one does Mirada like lol?


Do people ever try to get a bitch's "opinion" on a stud? It would be interesting to study mate choice in domestic animals. In wildlife (well, wild birds anyway), people think that females try to choose males with high MHC diversity (basically, males that have well-developed immune systems, capable of recognizing a lot of different pathogens) - and perhaps even an MHC profile that complements their own. I wonder if a bitch could pick up on things that the breeder wouldn't for a "better" match. Probably not - I imagine that ability has been bred out of them, but it would be interesting to look at.


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## Xeph

> Ricky has nice color, but seems ... long.


He does, and he is (I am mad crazy for a nice sable, but pedigree wise, the breeding would be a knock out).



> Do people ever try to get a bitch's "opinion" on a stud?


Not usually. Mostly because a good brood bitch is kind of a whore (Mirada is a huge floosie). There are bitches who will refuse one stud, but accept another (reason unknown).


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## ChaosIsAWeim

waterbaby said:


> Do people ever try to get a bitch's "opinion" on a stud?


I was just joking, we don't actually let bitches choose their studs.


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## Xeph

It IS an interesting and valid question though, I think! I do know of people that have switched out stud dogs for a bitch because that breeding just WASN'T gonna happen with the stud they (the humans) picked, and they didn't want to AI. They used a dog with a similar pedigree (if not the same...like using the brother of the stud dog).

I find that fascinating!


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## Active Dog

Again another uneducated opinion lol

Bandit: It seems he is the best candidate between pedigree, temperament, and health history. The only thing I notice with him is that his front end seems to be placed farther back on his body than any of the others. I am not sure how this effects their soundness lol as I am no expert. Also his hocks seem to bow out a bit just something that caught my eye.

Ricky: I too have a thing for sables and he seems very handsome. His body seems to ride low, it could be his big body or his legs that make him look that way I am not sure. You said that Miranda is too leggy for your taste? It may balance it out? This may just be the grass or he just stacks really low, but his leg closest to the owner seems to have its hock all the way to the ground. It could just be the grass though and also that I don't know the ins and outs of the trade lol.

Patron: I honestly don't see a whole lot wrong with him lol, maybe his front end but it could be the picture. Though it sounds like the linebreeding is just the major problem.

JD: I think he may be my favorite, he seems structurally sound and balanced, I don't have a whole lot to say against his physical attributes. But again it sounds like there may be problems with linebreeding and unknown causes of death. 

My two cents anyway lol


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## Xeph

> but his leg closest to the owner seems to have its hock all the way to the ground.


Nope, it's flat. But that's a matter of angulation, not lack of leg. Personally that drives me nuts and I don't like to see it, but I'm looking at this from a breeding stand point, not a "WHY WOULD YOU STACK A DOG LIKE THAT?!?!??!" standpoint, lol.

Mirada is not too leggy I don't think, but she's not a large bitch, and I'm used to seeing LARGE, so she MAY be a bit low stationed and I'm just not seeing it due to her overall size. It's harder to judge certain aspects of your dog when you see them every day. There are things you don't notice.


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## FilleBelle

Xeph said:


> I was cruising websites to look at stud dogs, and I came upon this boy and just about DIED! Biggest CON for this dog right now is the fact that he is in California >.< For ME that's a problem because improving nerve is #1 on my priority list right now, so while he's gorgeous, that makes me hesitant. With his DM at risk status, it does mean just that....at risk...so he could end up with it, he could not. Mirada will be DM tested prior to breeding.


Could someone in California visit the dog on your behalf? Make a full report and perhaps provide video of the "interview?"


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## ChaosIsAWeim

I will have to post pictures of roomba and lumpy to show how they compliment each other. But that will have to be later when I can get back to my computer (and somehow ex out of the game I was playing).


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## Xeph

> Could someone in California visit the dog on your behalf? Make a full report and perhaps provide video of the "interview?"


Oh I have plenty of people I know that have likely seen the dog, or could see the dog. My problem is conveying to them what I want to see in terms of nerve and drive. Many AmLine people do not look at it the same way I do, and my evaulations of puppies are often vastly different from theirs.

I will be asking a few people about him though, so it's definitely a valid (and appreciated) suggestion.


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## RaeganW

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I will have to post pictures of roomba and lumpy to show how they compliment each other. But that will have to be later when I can get back to my computer (and somehow ex out of the game I was playing).


I would also love to see this, especially considering they're Bulldogs, which is a breed shaped so differently.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

RaeganW said:


> I would also love to see this, especially considering they're Bulldogs, which is a breed shaped so differently.


I posted a different thread of them, But I can add more pictures of different bulldogs of mine, some of my other bullies have different angled pictures then Roomba does, and Lumpy is not my dog so I don't have access to a lot of pictures of him.


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## Willowy

I <3 Patron. . . I can't really say why. I just like his looks. Not that I know anything about picking a stud, especially for GSds. But I do like him very much.


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## Xeph

Willowy, he's a very "hunky" sort of dog. Lots of bone and substance. It's a big reason why I like him


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

*waits for the fifth guy*


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## Xeph

Forget the 5th guy for now. I really should have typed 4


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

so....hell no on #2. not that he is not a nice dog, i actually like him on his own more than i like the others but as a boyfriend for Mogwai, hell no.

i did him up first. ill do the others in a little bit. though my initial, unmeasured thought is #1 or #4.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

I still say go for Bandit, at least for one litter.


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## Xeph

I like Bandit, but my breeder doesn't like him very much :-/


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## dbulick

Totally uneducated, but just looking at the pictures something about Ricky strikes me as one of the best if not THE best looking GSD's I've ever seen.


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## Xeph

I would probably say that he's a dark dark sable. It's a very striking color. His mother, who was GVx in 2006 at the GSDCA National, was also a very dark sable. There are amazing sable dogs in the pedigree. It is actually my favorite color, and I still haven't acquired one LOL.

If we were to breed to Ricky, I would be hoping against hope the best little bitch would be a sable.


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## Elana55

What do the stud dog owners say about breeding to YOUR dog? I know studs I may like for Questa (if it goes that far.. the puppy market is.. well.. what it is and I have seen some very good breeders dropping prices a LOT). I also know that some of the studs I like for her may not happen because the stud dog owners may say "No.." (as well they should be saying if they believe the cross would not improve the breed). 

What are the stud fees running (range)? 

That being said, structurally I like #3 and #4. I have seen Bandit and he is OK. I looked at his progeny (one photo) and really prefer the others. Of course, I would prefer a German Outcross on Mirada to add bone and an over all more compact/stronger look.. but I also admit my bias toward the German Structured GSD. The other thing to consider is pet puppy sales since most breedings do NOT produce champions and there are not a lot of show homes anyway. German cross may not work out in that regard.


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## Xeph

I've talked to all of them except for Patron's owner (and at this point, he out due to RMan >.<), and all were receptive to breeding to Mirada after seeing her pedigree and talking to me. One of the reasons people are saying YES is because I'm concerned about health and temperament, am being HONEST in what I want, what I have, AND because I'm willing to do these outcrosses and quit all the crazy linebreeding.

Linebreeding is useful, but it's gone way overboard in a lot of instances. Every breeding except Patron and JD would result in an outcross. Some to German lines, some being pure American lines, but being on a different coast = using different dogs in the pedigree.

Stud fees are running $600-800. I do not know Ricky's stud fee, nor did I ask since the breeding is a ways out.



> German cross may not work out in that regard.


I've personally seen it to be the opposite. Many people are not after show line dogs, but they do like the German crosses. That said, I need to check out how the market on the east coast is compared to elsewhere. People in the midwest are having a harder time...however, there are people DEMANDING puppies go to show homes, and honestly, if I've got a show quality puppy that's GORGEOUS, if I have room, I'll keep it, otherwise, off to a pet home it goes.

The dog having a good home where it can be loved and appreciated takes precedence over the show ring.


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## sizzledog

My vote is JD... but you know I've liked him for a looooong time.


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## Elana55

Xeph said:


> That said, I need to check out how the market on the east coast is compared to elsewhere


Not so hot. Breeders have been dropping prices (but vet and stud fees have either remained the same or have increased). I don't know of anyone actually getting more than $1500 in my market. Most are getting less. They may ADVERTISE higher... but with the cost of keeping a dog increasing all the time, actual paid prices for puppies have come down. A lot. Even for very good puppies. 

My breeder has held off breeding Questa's Mother for this reason. None of us is thrilled with losing LARGE money on a litter (tho it is expected to lose money or, on a good day, maybe break even). Things as they are now there are two problems... getting buyers committed prior to puppies being whelped (or the bitch even bred) AND getting adequate prices to help cover expenses (and that is if nothing goes wrong). More than a few breeders have been getting stuck with puppies as people have backed out (and given up their deposits). 

It's not the dogs.. its the economy.. and 10% unemployment coupled with increased fuel prices (which increases the price of everything we touch) has raised cain with the market of non essential items like pet puppies. The rescues are suffering as well.


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## Xeph

> My vote is JD... but you know I've liked him for a looooong time.


I love him too, unfortunately, I'm basically back to square one, as he is now "out" due to linebreeding on R-Man.

The Amateur futurity is this weekend, so maybe I'll see something while I'm up in PA.


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## melgrj7

I love Ricky because he is a sable But for Marada I think I like Bandit the best. They look like they could help each other out in areas they both need it.


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## Xeph

Then send me good vibes to convince my breeder! She has to sign off on it! Another problem I'm having is the fact that she wants me to do trans cervical implantations on ALL Mirada's litters...we have philosophical differences on natural breeding, so to HER breeding to Ricky isn't an issue at all.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Xeph said:


> Then send me good vibes to convince my breeder! She has to sign off on it! Another problem I'm having is the fact that she wants me to do trans cervical implantations on ALL Mirada's litters...we have philosophical differences on natural breeding, so to HER breeding to Ricky isn't an issue at all.


Why does she want you to do that?


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## Xeph

Because of all the doggy STDs that can't be tested for. She doesn't want to end up with a sterile breeding animal. She also feels it's safer.

I feel like it's humans intervening too much. I am not opposed to AI as a WHOLE, but my preference is to do a natural breeding for the first litter.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Well your breeder does have a valid point. You would not want your dog to get a STD. And in the long run AI is safer. But I completly understand you wanting to do at least one natural mating.


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## Xeph

Oh I don't disagree with the general thought process. But yeah, I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from. I really feel that I should see that my bitch is capable of breeding naturally at all, as well as following through with a natural whelp. With all the problems of conception due to low fertility or strictures these days, I really don't feel that MORE intervention is key, and I want to be sure that I'm promoting a prolific line of dogs.

In addition to that, there may be somebody old fashioned out there that really doesn't like to AI at all, and if I sell them a bitch that ends up breedworthy, I'd like to increase the odds of a safe, natural breeding. Overall I'm not terribly concerned about her standing (she's such a floosie), it's just "one of those things".

One of my concerns with ALL of these stud dogs is them being potentially too large for Mirada....Bandit may be ok, but Ricky is definitely a big guy. Mirada is on the small side for a bitch.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Yeah size of the stud is most definitely something you have to consider.


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## Yvonne

stds are a huge concern. Ulf's grandsire got his titles and his HGH was only bred a couple times and I do not know what specifically it was but he had to be neutered. I know his owner well enough to know she takes no risks with her dogs and requires all tests and it still happened. The sv does not allow artificial breeding though.

Are you full owner to your bitch to make breeding decisions and she is mentoring you? Or is it in your contract she remains having say so?


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## Xeph

She's on a co-ownership until she's produced two litters, so the breeder can keep one puppy from each. Now, I admit, I AM wondering if she's really still going to want anything from Mirada, since she still has both of her sisters, but right now I'm just continuing on as the contract says.

The stud dog search has been give and take, and so while Bandit is still a consideration, he is not high on her personal list of preferences, and I can be "difficult" because of my stance on linebreeding on certain dogs.


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## Yvonne

I just can't bring myself to co own, I prefer to buy my dogs outright and in full. I have seen many people have issues with it and a few times it work out alright. I like the looks of the first stud and have seen the lines around. I am not a fan of the breeders selection as I have seen other dogs with her kennel name that IMO were not good matches. I do however like him best of the selections.


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## Xeph

> I prefer to buy my dogs outright and in full


So do I, but being that hubby and I are working stiffs, we cannot afford (nor would I pay) $2500 for a dog. The new puppy that is coming is really pushing what I ACTUALLY want to pay for a dog.

While my breeder and I had a semi rocky start, things are actually really great now. I'll be going to nationals with her this year, and we talk frequently. She's been SO supportive of me owner handling my bitch and is very very impressed with how Mirada has come along. She actually texted me while I was in Raleigh just to tell me that she wishes she had owners like Jon and I all the time.

I keep her in the loop with how Mogwai is doing, send her frequent pictures, we share thoughts on various things. I'm really looking forward to nationals (even though its in freaking Topeka, Kansas!).



> I am not a fan of the breeders selection as I have seen other dogs with her kennel name that IMO were not good matches.


Which dog specifically?


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## Yvonne

I prefer not to talk about anyone's specific dog with negative comments without their permission. When I am going to buy a dog, I save up for it long term... I am far from wealthy. I am an average working person that has held jobs since grub working in kennels since I was 13  I learned budgets and saving. I also keep an emergency savings for my dogs to know they will care at times unexpected things happen and they need it. One reason I do not breed is I would have to save up yet another fund to bankroll enough those pups would need for the rest of their lives if I had to again take them back and keep them. I am only a mixed media artist/ jewelry designer in todays economy these days. I do hope to get back to work in either my original profession or a new one now that my leg has been improved.


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## Xeph

I actually thought you were talking about one of the stud dogs, hence the confusion.

Even if we could afford $2500 for a dog, I'm not willing to pay it. My limit is really $1500, and I'm pushing that for the new puppy so Strauss can retire. The pedigree of the puppy is very very nice (working lines). I'm just not one that agrees with $2500-3000 for a dog just because they're show lines (that applies to all show lines).


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## Yvonne

I agree that I would not pay that high for dogs bred only for the ring. All puppy lines I purchase however are shown conformation and working titles. That costs the moon to title a dog and I think a breeder doing it right should get help in a price that reflects it to go on keeping our breed strong. They do not just conformation show on the coast they live, they travel country to country.


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## Xeph

Yup, we'll never be the big breeders that travel country to country. 8-10 hours is my travel limit for a show, and I show in SEVERAL different venues (agility, obedience, rally, herding, and Jon is interested in tracking and schutzhund). When we move to PA, I'll be exhibiting in PA, OH, MI, IL, IN and, sometimes, NJ. Once Mirada's co-ownership ends, I may register with the Canadian Kennel Club and exhibit her in Canada.

And even with all the travel and money we put into working a dog, we don't anticipate charging more than $1500/puppy. We'll never recoup the cost we put into the animal. It's foolish to think that that would even be possible.


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## Yvonne

I do not think there is any right or wrong set price. It is worth only what it is worth to the to the buyer to buy it. I feel my pups from lines judged in Germany and breed surveyed for life with complete working titles not a accomplishment here and there is worth what I pay and I am sure the future owners of your litters will be happy with what they pay if they feel they are worth it. IMO the price is not the matter, as something is only worth what someone is willing to pay. Ulf was my cheapest purchase of my gsds and I think he is the best  All puppies are a crap shoot I just try to make the odds in my favor the best I can.

Trying to get the purchase price back to me is not valid as I do not breed mine and I will not purchase from a breeder that is money orientated. My first breeder was like that and I learned she didnt care about her dogs at all. I will not do business ever again with a breeder that just seeks to make money off a litter. I would rather pay a good breeder that is only breeding to enjoy and improve lines that breeds 1-3 litters a year than one that pumps out up to 13 litters or more a year and offers money back for titles because she then uses those to sell more pups. I would rather pay a super high price to the breeder that cares than some breeder that pump out all those pups and can afford to sell under 2,000 because of the volume of pups bred for a year.

Getting off topic of the studs though so I am dropping this line of conversation. I know nothing of what stud fees are these days to bring the conversation to money and studs.


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## MissMutt

> and, sometimes, NJ.


You'd BETTER, missy. I know all the good shows. 

Mirada's 14 months now, right?


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## ChaosIsAWeim

So you won't come back to VA, or go to MD? lol. No I understand that, we won't be going to any show northern of MD, except for Nationals. 

As for pricing of puppies, I have been lucky that majority of my dogs have been free. Either they were on a co-ownership contract, or they have been out of my breeding. My next dog that may be the mini bull is coming for price of air fare and a puppy back for air fare. I will be going to pick the pup up though, can't pass up an opportunity to see my friends in England.


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## Xeph

Test post to see the next page


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## begemot

I just wanted to say that I'm reading with great interest. It's really fascinating to actually see the decision-making process behind a breeding, especially when it seems so well thought out.


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## Xeph

Thanks 

These are pictures we got of Bandit yesterday while we were in PA






















































ETA: These pictures are resized (like, super muchly) and I don't know why the first two aren't showing properly....


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## Elana55

Looks like the first two might have auto reset the brightness or contrast (maybe). I have to say it.. I do not like Bandit as much in these photos (nothing to do with how they came out). He looks a bit heavy in body and front legs seem a bit light.. not sure I like his rear angles as much.. like his stifle is a bit too low (like his femur is too long). 

Of course, this is from these photos.. not seen him move and not seen him in person. Critique from photos is.. well.. critique from photos.. 

Looks like he is still in full winter coat.


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## Yvonne

How old is he? What is his pedigree?

Found the pedigree on the database but to much info is missing. No birth dates no hip/elbow certs.


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## Xeph

> He looks a bit heavy in body and front legs seem a bit light


He's better in person, but you're not wrong. He's a liiiiiiiitle chunky right now, as he's not being specialed this year. He is also not a "OMG holy cow WHATADAWG!!!" kind of dog in terms of structure and motion. I still think he'd compliment Mirada well, but what I'm after is his nerve and temperament mostly.


> not sure I like his rear angles as much.. like his stifle is a bit too low


His upper thigh is a bit too long, doesn't match his lower thigh.

Obviously I wouldn't breed to Bandit if I did not think he could improve on Mirada's faults (he DOES have good bone, and it is behind him, even though it may not be as proportionate to HIM as I'd like), but I know that my priority is nerve and temperament first and foremost, and I will sacrifice breeding to the "beautiful" dog in favor of a more mentally sound dog.

Here's a "vertical pedigree" for his OFA stats
http://offa.org/vertpedigree.html?appnum=1231452#animal


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## Yvonne

Thanks but I looked at the database, so I could see his progeny and see what he throws but none were listed. I look for a same type bitch and what they produced together. Proof is in the pudding not in the ingredients is how I think. His heavier body is because of the influx of german lines with Fiemereck and he is a very mature male I am guessing at perhaps 6 or older?


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## Xeph

> I could see his progeny and see what he throws but none were listed.


He's not been bred to much, and in addition to that, while more people with Am Lines are using the PDB, not all do (for various reasons).

He turned 6 on March 27th



> Proof is in the pudding not in the ingredients is how I think.


I don't disagree entirely, but I'm also not after a super popular stud dog. He's not owned by people that are "big" in the breed, nor do they focus solely on GSDs (overall they're more Malinois people that happen to have a nice GSD they've done well with). Because of that, there's not going to be a lot of progeny listed.

Bandit was bred this weekend to a bit that's all American, but looks more German in type. We'll see what that yields.


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## waterbaby

Xeph said:


> He's not been bred to much, and in addition to that, while more people with Am Lines are using the PDB, not all do (for various reasons).


You just need to click "Return to info display". There are 3 offspring listed:

BROADCREEK'S MISS KITTY
VON HORNBERGER TIKI AMERICANA
VONHORNBERGER'S BORN IN THE USA

Von Hornberger has a nice website with their dogs.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Xeph said:


> I don't disagree entirely, but I'm also not after a super popular stud dog. He's not owned by people that are "big" in the breed, nor do they focus solely on GSDs (overall they're more Malinois people that happen to have a nice GSD they've done well with). Because of that, there's not going to be a lot of progeny listed.
> 
> Bandit was bred this weekend to a bit that's all American, but looks more German in type. We'll see what that yields.


Yeah they are more known for their Malinois then they are GSD. But they have a nice GSD, and I believe another GSD as well, a younger one that I saw when he was a young pup. Two of my friends have Malinois from them, the one has gotten three from them. They consistently have top Malinois, that actually look like a malinois is suppose to look and are temperamentally sound. 

Bandit is a good dog, that I agree will compliment Mirada well.

On another note, how did Mirada do in PA?


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## Xeph

> On another note, how did Mirada do in PA?


Zip in her futurity, placed 3rd out of 7 in her 12-18 class at the Specialty on Saturday, dumped entirely on Sunday


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Aw that sucks, well if it makes you feel any better BB lost to dogs she has beaten before. But you should have seen the little 9 month old Engie strutting her stuff in the group ring it was too cute, she did good for a baby and showed well for me.


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## Xeph

The Amateur Futurity judge LOVED Mirada. Absolutely LOVED her. And then she was a raging bitch in the freaking ring for winner's, and would not follow. She only tried to gallop. I was so pissed. I mean, he was giving me a TON of positive feedback that the others weren't getting, and she just wouldn't freaking gait.

I should be clear that I am not at all unhappy with Mirada's 3rd place win at the specialty on Saturday. The judge liked my bitch. Her problem was an aesthetic one...not enough coat. I just need to bring him an animal like Mirada that carries more coat (both bitches in front of us were equally good movers, but they had hair).

He was not political, and he had no color bias.

I do need to speak out about his AMAZING treatment of the juniors at this show. There were only two, but he treated them with great respect, and thanked the audience for sharing lovely dogs with two great handlers.

The girl the judge gave best junior to also went BOB with her special. I almost cried, and I didn't even know her. The entire audience cheered for her and her dog. The support was amazing.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

Yeah there was a junior showing her 9-12 month ACD who won breed over the specials. And every time she would gait the dog the whole crowd claped and whood for her, it was awesome. I was in the ring with either the pointer or Engies, and all of a sudden this roar of applause happened and I saw it was a little girl with the ACD, and another junior showing the pyrenean shepherd got quite a lot of applause as well.


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## Xeph

Love that kind of support. Absolutely need more of it


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## Charis

This is fascinating. I am looking forward to reading up on this more as time passes.


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## Xeph

Enter a new contender ;-)

Ch Ptd Newmoon Sajela Obstructn of Justice "Justin" aka The Sable Moose










His OFA vertical pedigree
http://offa.org/vertpedigree.html?appnum=1070786#animal

Potential pedigree: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/para.utkoma?fadir=601803&modir=654701

It is completely free of all the dogs I was concerned about.

Justin is a dog I toyed with breeding for a long time (and I will admit, I want a J-Dog puppy SO badly), but I'm trying to be pragmatic about the decision. Justin's hips OFA'd fair, which is what put me off of breeding him, *however*, I found out that he has been PennHip'd, and his results are *amazing*! 

The average distraction index in the GSD is .40. Justin's DI is .25 on the right and .31 on the left if I recall correctly. In other words...amazing.

He has been on sheep. He went right from show ring to sheep for his test (Erin taped for me). He has his TT (GSDCA temperament tested) and his CHIC #. He was not titled because his owner didn't bother to do so, and if I'd had more time, I'd have titled him (in performance) for her myself, as she was open to it.

He's mild mannered but drivey, a bigger dog (25.5 - 25.75").

I will admit that I have a HUGE bias towards his dog, because he's #1 in Wisconsin, #2 I know him personally, #3 he's sable, #4 I KNOW he's stable in the head, #5 his owner his amazing, and #6 I truly and honestly adore his structure (please note that these are in no particular order of importance).

The breeding would be an out cross to the old Sturdevant stuff (so, bringing in the OLD west coast). Longevity is behind him, and he is healthy as a horse. I do recall that Flag died of bloat, but I know of no other serious issues within his pedigree.

So, for ACTUAL reasons about why he's compatible with Mogwai
He's got the bone I want, excellent feet and ligamentation, his croup is better than hers. Perhaps a bit short, but it's correctly angulated. He has nice rear angles, not overdone, clean coming and going, excellent shoulder, though could use a longer upper arm perhaps. He opens at the shoulder and the hock. Ear set is beautiful. He is a little long in hock, and perhaps a little long in loin. I think his coupling is excellent, topline is flawless in motion. Fabulous ribbing.

I think Mirada could compensate for his color (the color is very rich, but pigment could be deeper), his light eyes, his low wither (not flat, but not as high as it could be) and throw a little more drive into the mix. Also better follow through in the rear with greater underreach, and a better line of transmission coming at you (Justin will toe in the slightest bit coming at you if you let him move too hard). 

That beautiful forechest would be maintained, as well as lovely necks (Justin should add some substance though), definitely would get more coat (Justin carries a lot of coat and it's behind him). Mirada should also bring a better set of neck. Justin's neck is set a bit forward.

Could potentially lose the mask, but it's a toss up. Would have to look out for overly hocky dogs. She should also add a bit more balance, as Justin is a bit front heavy.

So you can see his head


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## Yvonne

Good looking dog, however there is just not enough proven that he has what it takes to improve the lines. You want to breed up and with fair hip plus I saw several fair hips in your bitches pedigree. To many negatives IMO. He is leggy, has a shallow shoulder, needs more pigmentation, and has a unilateral right elbow. Looked up videos and he is a pacer and has limited reach in his movement.


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## Xeph

That video is LITERALLY from the first time I worked him (after he sat on a couch for 6 years), and I didn't even know I was being taped, lol. A dog that paces sometimes isn't a dog that bothers me.



> has a unilateral right elbow


If you mean he has DJD, that is incorrect. His elbows were normal.

That said, my breeder showed me this dog today. I'm sharing him just for kicks, because, as usual, he's in California *sigh*
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=531848

It's doing that thing again where it doesn't let me view responses....including my own. Fab...


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## MissMutt

I know it's not one of the most important things.. but those loose flews! UGH!


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## Xeph

Yeah, they're pretty common throughout the breed.


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## samshine

Just a few comments, from someone that is NOT an expert in GSDs but I do have a working group dog.

One thing I like about Justin, and also Bandit, is that their elbows are clearly below their withers. In recent years I see more and more dogs of many breeds with their elbows out in front of the vertical line of the withers, which is absolutely incorrect. There, that is my two cents on GSD conformation...

I put a lot more faith in PennHip readings than OFA when it comes to making breeding decisions. An OFA Fair could be almost a Good, or almost borderline dysplastic. Also, when they are looking at an OFA x-ray, what they are seeing is the _expression_ of the dog's genetic load. But how it is expressed varies quite a bit depending on other factors including environmental. A puppy is born with a given amount of play in the hip joint, that is what PennHip measures. This looseness (subluxation) is acknowledged to be the main factor in HD. They are all born with normal ball and sockets, the changes are the result of wear and tear. The looser the joint, the more likely the ball will come out and hit the rim of the socket. That is what causes the damage. So there is a given potential with that pup but other factors influence how much wear and tear happens. 

Some puppies are mellow and do relatively little jumping around, and maybe they aren't raised with other young dogs who like to play. Some puppies are little whirling dirvishes and never ever still. Some puppies have really fast growth spurts, some are steadier (fast growth is a known risk factor for HD) Some are fed foods to encourage slow growth, some are not. Some puppies like to jump up and catch balls, landing on their rear legs. Some puppies are kept lean, some are allowed to get a little pudgy. Some puppies are weekend warriors, limited walks during the week and then an hour long crazy time at the dog park on the weekend. All these factors influence how much change you are going to see in that hip joint. 

So if you are considering a dog to breed to and he is a fair, that could mean he was a dog with decently tight hips but he was a wild child and rough on those joints, grew very fast, maybe not kept thin enough, and liked to fetch balls in the air, and caught the OFA examiner on a bad day. OR, it could be a dog with real loose hips that just did not put nearly as much stress on the hips, grew slowly, stayed real thin, had regular steady exercise, got the OFA examiners on a charitable day, and simply had good luck.

With PennHip, you get to eliminate those environmental factors and the variability of OFA from the picture. You get to concentrate on the one factor, that if you get right, means your dogs will NOT get HD. (hips with a distraction index of .3 or less just do not get HD) Breeders know that is it MUCH MUCH easier to make progress in a breeding program when you get to focus on a simple trait. Hip distraction index is a simple trait with a higher heritability index. OFA is a complicated snapshot that measures both genetics and environment.

I see that I have gotten carried away with the PennHip issue. I tend to be a little passionate on the issue...

I was also wondering what other STDs your breeder might be worried about? I have never heard of any besides brucellosiss. Let me post some quotes from an interview with Dr Hutchinson, well known repro guy. 

These are some excerpts from an interview with Dr Hutchinson, published in 2002

Question: What about the dreaded mycoplasma?

DrHutch: Unfortunately, an article published in the early 90s blamed mycoplasma for infertility in males, bitches aborting their puppies, husbands fooling around with their secretaries. We as dog people jumped on this like there was no tomorrow. Mycoplasma is a normal organism at all body openings. A routine culture of a bitch's vaginal tract will show strep, staph, e coli, pastuerella, and mycoplasma. The vaginal tract is not sterile so routine culturing of a normal, healthy bitch is totally unwarranted.
You need to appreciate the purpose of normal flora or normal bacteria: they keep the BAD bugs out so a routine culture, that shows mycoplasma, e coli, and strep, is not a cause for treatment but a cause for celebration because the bitch is normal.

Question: What about bitches who did not become pregnant before antibiotics, but do
afterward?

DrHutch: Putting on bitches on antibiotics prebreeding actually makes them more prone to infectious disease by killing normal organisms, especially when we use the GOOD drugs like Baytril. Occasionally, we may see a bitch with an infection... but there will be signs of that infection - redness, abnormal discharge, smelling - just like if you have an infection in your ear, you're not going to not know it. Bacteria does not equal infection.
When we see problems with mycoplasma, for example, it is not the mycoplasma that caused the problem. Mycoplasma only took the opportunity of the infection, just the same as the staph on the skin causes a hot spot because the dog has fleas, for example. Most of the individuals that see who do have mycoplasma infection, would not have been prevented by a routine culture, as the primary problem was stress, steroids, or other types of immune deficiency. They are only secondary problems. Something like pyometritis is not caused by routine bacteria; the normal bacteria were allowed to flare up by the inflammation of the uterine lining

New question: Can't these bacteria be transmitted to the stud dog? 

DrHutch: The male HAS all of these organism, so no, they are NOT contagious. This is why one of the most absolute crazy things I have ever heard of, is people treating their whole kennel because they had one dog with mycoplasma. This would be the equivalent of treating your whole kennel because one dog had a hot spot. Every dog has this. It's not contagious. 

Brucellosis.... is a whole other world... 

So, do you think it is this bacteria issue that your breeder is worried about?


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## Xeph

> So, do you think it is this bacteria issue that your breeder is worried about?


Possibly. I can always ask.

Thanks for the further insight on PennHip. Justin's numbers are fab, I know that much, but it's always interesting to learn more


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## Yvonne

I agree with you on your thoughts about the hips. However, if your female has more than five fairs in her line and the male being considered also does would you not try to find a stud that might better those hip ratings instead?


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## Xeph

> However, if your female has more than five fairs in her line and the male being considered also does would you not try to find a stud that might better those hip ratings instead?


Of course I would  I certainly haven't stopped looking, but there are other requirements that must be met, and one of them right now, is that the dog be accessible to me.


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## Yvonne

sorry you posted after samshine before I could finish mine lol I should have been more specific. Samshine would you consider two dogs mated together that have many close generation fair hip ratings or would you try to better your averages by looking onward to a stud whose line is not a match for the female in this area?


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## Xeph

Oops! Well, there was clarification on my part at least  Please pardon any typos....burned my finger pretty badly on some caramel.


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## Yvonne

I also need to correct that it was this dog's sire and not him that had the Degenerative joint disease unilateral right elbow. I had trouble finding the info using the name on the pedigree database so I had to internet search to find it: Newmoon Sajela Obstrctn of Justice


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## Xeph

Yup, he did indeed.


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## Keechak

Having met justin once or twice in my life I must say I am very impressed with his temperament and the way he reacts to new stimuli in a calm but alert manner something I saw lacking on a few dogs I met at the specialty I went to.


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## Xeph

Thanks, Erin  His temperament is the #1 thing I like about him


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## LuckySarah

Xeph said:


> Thanks, Erin  His temperament is the #1 thing I like about him



I don't know much about breeding BUT temperament seems to be the number one problem with GSD's focus on that first, not many people do but its SO important.


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## Xeph

Just wanted to share a picture of a Ricky daughter I saw today. It's a very recent photo


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## Deeken

I really don't know much about choosing studs since my involvement is mostly with the rescue side of things, so I just wanted to say that I'm finding this thread incredibly fascinating.

And from a non-GSD person, I like the look of Ricky's daughter except her pasterns seem quite weak...


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## Xeph

> And from a non-GSD person, I like the look of Ricky's daughter except her pasterns seem quite weak...


Yup, they are. But promise me when I tell you that there are dogs with much...much worse pasterns than her. She may also be a bit "puppy soft", and while things won't improve dramatically, that's a 13 month old baby there, so there will still be some physical changes that occur.

Something that many people also aren't used to, is the fact that the GSD's pasterns SHOULD be more angulated than those of many other breeds. Upright pasterns are incorrect.

Mirada's great grandpa. Too much rear for me, but beautiful pasterns


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## Deeken

Xeph said:


> Something that many people also aren't used to, is the fact that the GSD's pasterns SHOULD be more angulated than those of many other breeds. Upright pasterns are incorrect.


I didn't know that. I will say that Miranda's Grandpa's pasterns look much nicer to me than the other dog's.


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## Xeph

For points of reference:
Paska Salztalblick, a working line dog. Strong pasterns, maybe the slightest bit upright









Laiga Kirschental, a west german show line. Nice pasterns.


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## Deeken

Xeph said:


> For points of reference:
> Paska Salztalblick, a working line dog. Strong pasterns, maybe the slightest bit upright


Gorgeous, Gorgeous dog! Weak pasterns are a pet peeve of mine but I usually work with pit bulls or labs these days. They are much more upright than GSD's it seems so his don't seem too upright at all to me. I know its comparing different breeds which doesn't really work but by my points of reference, I quite like those pasterns (as well as the rest of the dog!)


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## Yvonne

The pasterns should have some lowering however, should not be long and slanted. The age of the dog if it is under 1 also affects how the pastern looks. Ulf at ten months old is just now started to drop some in his. I do not like weak long thin slanted pasterns on my gsds.










I enjoy Fred Lanting's writings of which this excerpt is taken from: 



> In the normal dog, slope of pasterns varies from the very upright in the Terriers to only slightly less perpendicular in the Rottweiler to about 22° in the correct German Shepherd Dog (despite the pictures in the U.S. ads with 35-45° or worse). The proposed reason for some slope in the trotting and galloping breeds is to cushion the impact of landing on the front limbs and prevent shock to the joints and fatigue. Excess slope makes a trotting dog look as if it were wearing socks too long for its feet, slapping its weak paws onto the ground with a very visible and almost audible effect. Yet many a professional handler, judge, and supposedly experienced breeder have been surprised to see it only after having it pointed out and explained. One source8 claimed that the "normal" standing angle of the canine carpal joint (average of breeds) is from 2° to 10°, but don’t equate that with “mean or median”, since that seems too steep to be an average in my view, and I’ve judged many thousands of dogs of several hundreds of breeds. GSD owners may resent their breed not being included in the category of "normal", although in America that may be hard to defend in regard to other characteristics, orthopedic or not.


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## Deeken

Yvonne said:


> The pasterns should have some lowering however, should not be long and slanted. The age of the dog if it is under 1 also affects how the pastern looks. Ulf at ten months old is just now started to drop some in his. I do not like weak long thin slanted pasterns on my gsds.
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I don't like weak or long and slanted pasterns on any dog. It is usually the first thing I notice. That excerpt is interesting because 22 degrees really isn't that much of a slope, IMO. From the diagram, that would only be like the second picture from the left, would it not? I've seen some crazy weak pasterns on young dogs so know that it is affected by age, but I tend to notice that dogs with noticeably weak pasterns as youngsters tend not to have the strongest pasterns as adults either...

Also, Xeph, I'm not trying to nitpick, be rude, or anything like that at all, but feel like I'm coming across as if I am. I'm really just interested in both pasterns and the process that goes into picking a stud


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## Yvonne

I agree that second and I think also the third to the left would be ideal. I do not agree that pasterns get stronger as a dog gets older. A gsd puppy must start out with strong pasterns they do not improve but rather they relax and get lower as the dog ages. If the pastern is not slightly upright as a puppy you will have to much slanted degree as an adult.

IMO you can't pick a stud by looking at a photo of the stud and looking at one of the bitch and say this dog has a, b and c better than the other dog and first dog has d, e and f better than the other dog so lets breed them together and they will exchange. It just does not work that way. You must study the progeny of both lines to see what carries and study genetics. They do NOT just swap parts like that. You would take your dog's worst faults and breed to a dog KNOWN to improve those faults not use studs that are unknown, unused or dubious genetic contribution unless you are a seasoned breeder that can afford to take the risk that the pups will not turn out well.


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## Xeph

> Gorgeous, Gorgeous dog!


I'm getting a grandson og his this year xD



> Also, Xeph, I'm not trying to nitpick, be rude, or anything like that at all, but feel like I'm coming across as if I am. I'm really just interested in both pasterns and the process that goes into picking a stud


You're not picking  It's good to ask questions. I, too, feel her pasterns were a bit weak (Mirada's definitely are, and it drives me nuts, her pasterns are most like picture #4). I'd also like deeper color, but she's a sable, and at 13 months, she's nowhere near done changing color.



> I do not agree that pasterns get stronger as a dog gets older.


It could very well be different with the German dogs. I've noticed ligamentation (not angulation, but ligamentation) improve up until around 2 years old.


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## Yvonne

Like in horses if the feet and legs are not there, you do not have a horse. I do not believe they improve with time. They should be absolute criteria from puppy onward. Without proper paws and legs a dog is only as good as it gets. Paws must start out in nice tight shape as they will loosen/flatten a little over time as does the pastern let down at about 1 to 1.5 year old. I will agree to disagree on this.

My Aleit started out with not so nice looking puppy paws and her feet are ugly these days. I tried every thing I could to help her have nicer feet including working on sand and deep small gravel. Time and working exercises did not change anything about it but at least she has gorgeous pasterns lol

Ronaldo's feet are very nice, his pasterns are the third from the left at age 9. Younger Rondalo had the pasterns of the second dog while he was younger. I see the difference in his movement and how he uses his pasterns and paws in comparison to my bitch. 

Ulf's feet are tight knuckled and gorgeous and his pastern ATM are between the first and second dog. His pasterns have begun to relax to adult type and he will be second dog like Ronaldo.







Xeph, are you suggesting that because a dog is bred in Germany of the same breed as America that the pasterns can improve on one as it ages and not the other? I do not agree.

Fred Lanting has done a vast amount in American gsds as I am sure you must be aware.


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## Xeph

> Fred Lanting has done a vast amount in American gsds as I am sure you must be aware.


Yes, I am aware, and you can't even mention his name in AmLine circles without being yelled at.



> Xeph, are you suggesting that because a dog is bred in Germany of the same breed as America that the pasterns can improve on one as it ages and not the other?


Yup. Like I said, I've seen dogs with horrible pasterns as puppies become adults, and the pasterns have vastly improved.


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## Yvonne

I do not believe they improved but rather the dog has adapted on how to use them. They do not physically change however look different in gait because the dog is working around having them. Over time or on endurance type activities the dog cannot hold up doing this.


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## Xeph

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, as my experiences have been different


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## Deeken

I too have seen puppies with weak pasterns improve them over time (Not GSD's mind you). I really think it has to do with growth spurts in the pups. I have NEVER seen a dog with horrid pasterns end up with nice pasterns as an adult though. They vary a bit but really crappy pasterns are really crappy pasterns and there's only so much you can do about them.



> MO you can't pick a stud by looking at a photo of the stud and looking at one of the bitch and say this dog has a, b and c better than the other dog and first dog has d, e and f better than the other dog so lets breed them together and they will exchange. It just does not work that way. You must study the progeny of both lines to see what carries and study genetics. They do NOT just swap parts like that. You would take your dog's worst faults and breed to a dog KNOWN to improve those faults not use studs that are unknown, unused or dubious genetic contribution unless you are a seasoned breeder that can afford to take the risk that the pups will not turn out well.


This I get. I know a bit about genetics so I understand most of the different effects that go into what traits are expressed and what gets passed on. It's still interesting to see what faults are most important to the breeder to try to improve, what their specific process is in picking a stud, and eventually if any those puppies turn out to meet their expectations


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## Xeph

> They vary a bit but really crappy pasterns are really crappy pasterns and there's only so much you can do about them.


That I agree with. I'm not saying that pasterns go "OMG AMAZING!" as the dog matures, but they can definitely be better than they were.


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## Deeken

Xeph said:


> That I agree with. I'm not saying that pasterns go "OMG AMAZING!" as the dog matures, but they can definitely be better than they were.


Agree completely.


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## dantero

Deeken said:


> I too have seen puppies with weak pasterns improve them over time (Not GSD's mind you). I really think it has to do with growth spurts in the pups.


It can also have a lot to do with nutrition. I have seen some pretty amazing results in both feet and pasterns just by changing a dogs food. Not in an adult, once they hit adulthood it's to late, but in puppies who are still growing/developing.

Actually it's been my experience that changes in the feet and pasterns are the first warning signs that the dogs current diet isn't working for them.


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