# Heel vs. loose leash



## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

I am a HORRIBLE trainer when it comes to training leash manners. Sit, stay, down, wait, leave it, 4 on the floor, polite greetings...no problem. I get timing and reading a dog's body language/expressions. But leash training? I turn into a blithering idiot. 

I've read all the posts on loose leash walking and started the method suggested in the stickie. However, my question is this: do you have to teach heel to have a dog who walks on a loose leash? 

Frankly, the way I'm trying to "teach" is I think just confusing the heck out of Duke! Poor guy.  I use a GL Easy Walk harness on walks. (BTW, I've read the lengthy posts on that current hot topic, so no comments please on effectiveness/ineffectiveness of the Easy Walk...it is what it is and we will continue to use the harness because it works for us. 

Duke doesn't lunge or get crazy on a leash, but he is always at the end of the leash. I've actually had people comment on how well-behaved he is because he just sits quietly whenever I stop walking. Problem is...I think this is contributing to his inability to "get" the whole loose leash concept. Rather than seeing stopping as a "punishment" for tension on the leash (ie., CP's recommendation in the stickie to "be a tree"), he merely sits down as I've taught him to do. UGGH...this is polite, but doesn't help for the loose leash training!

As for treats, I always take something really good like chicken. His responsiveness to the treats isn't consistent. Sometimes he is UBER responsive to the chicken...he'll stay right by my side, looking up happily waiting for the next piece of chicken. I've gotten us up to about a block of loose leash doing this, but he is looking up at me, not straight ahead. He only keeps a loose leash as long as he's interested in the chicken. Other times I will catch his attention (saying his name), reward for the loose leash, and then he goes right back to the end of the leash. (I use a 4' leash, if that matters.)

I'm clearly going about this all the wrong way. Any ideas? Should I be teaching the Heel command instead?

I should add that I only use positive reinforcement methods...the Patricia McConnell school of thought.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I guess you could. Dog guides are trained to walk loose lead with their hind legs at their partners leg. 

Same old, same old, the correction of your choice each and every time the leash goes taunt.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Heel is a position, LLW is a behaviour..if that makes sense...lol.
You may want to try a couple of things...many dogs learn to yo yo back and forth between the end of the leash and the handler..so:

Try cuing the sit verbally BEFORE the tension occurs or call him back BEFORE he hits the end of the leash and then, reward for walking forward, not for stopping at your side. This is a timing thing and can take some practice. If you are using a clicker or a marker word the click happens while he is where you want, the treat is delivered "in position" (where you want him to be) BUT WHILE he is still walking. Otherwise he learns the reward is for coming back to you/sitting at the end of the leash, instead of actually for walking with no tension. The tension may actually have become PART of the cue sequence. 
I'm not sure how clear this post is..been a long day. Let me know if you don't understand it and I'll try again...lol.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

DukesMom said:


> I've read all the posts on loose leash walking and started the method suggested in the stickie. However, my question is this: do you have to teach heel to have a dog who walks on a loose leash?


Short answer: NO

Long Answer: Don't even try. Asking your dog to maintain a tight heel position for the length of a typical walk is asking too much. Even asking for a "rally heel" is too much. As long as the leash is loose, that's fine. 




DukesMom said:


> Duke doesn't lunge or get crazy on a leash, but he is always at the end of the leash.
> 
> I've actually had people comment on how well-behaved he is because he just sits quietly whenever I stop walking. Problem is...I think this is contributing to his inability to "get" the whole loose leash concept. Rather than seeing stopping as a "punishment" for tension on the leash (ie., CP's recommendation in the stickie to "be a tree"), he merely sits down as I've taught him to do. UGGH...this is polite, but doesn't help for the loose leash training!


I don't see it. If Duke doesn't pull or lunge or tighten up on the leash, but merely walks out to the end, then what's the problem? 

Some dogs just like a little "feel" on the collar or harness. If you can hold the leash with two-fingers, it isn't tight. 

If you really want him closer most of the time, get a shorter leash or shorten the one you have or get one of those gizmos with a "traffic loop" in the middle. 

If you want to keep a long leash, but for a particular situation he's moved away and that worries you - say you're worried about that horse and rider coming along the trail - work on your "With Me" so that you can get in close with each other when necessary. You don't actually need him in a heel - you just need him closer to you so you can control things better. 

Otherwise, based on your description, I just don't see a problem. 



DukesMom said:


> As for treats, I always take something really good like chicken. His responsiveness to the treats isn't consistent. Sometimes he is UBER responsive to the chicken...he'll stay right by my side, looking up happily waiting for the next piece of chicken. I've gotten us up to about a block of loose leash doing this, but he is looking up at me, not straight ahead. He only keeps a loose leash as long as he's interested in the chicken. Other times I will catch his attention (saying his name), reward for the loose leash, and then he goes right back to the end of the leash. (I use a 4' leash, if that matters.)
> 
> I'm clearly going about this all the wrong way. Any ideas? Should I be teaching the Heel command instead?


That's not what I want on a walk - he's supposed to be mostly looking around and seeing and sniffing the sights. As long as he maintains a loose leash and is under my control. An occasional look up is all I need to ensure that. 

Loose -leash walking is a social skill. Heeling is an obedience skill. 

Some dogs can learn different behaviors for different situations, so it's very possible to teach _*both*_ in those cases. Loose-leash on the walk - and in a different context, a strong focus and good tight heel position when you need it. But there are some dogs that never quite seem to get the second . OK- so they're not going win any obedience titles. But that's no reason to give up the socially important skill of loose-leash walking.


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## lizziedog1 (Oct 21, 2009)

> I am a HORRIBLE trainer when it comes to training leash manners. Sit, stay, down, wait, leave it, 4 on the floor, polite greetings...no problem. I get timing and reading a dog's body language/expressions. But leash training? I turn into a blithering idiot.


No you are not. My training weakness is also heeling. My dogs do not pull either, I am just fine with that. Besides, I am clumsy, I prefer some distance between my dog and my legs.

I can walk my dogs and drop the leash. Their distance from me doesn't change one iota.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

Not sure if this was already said or if you have already tried it, I had to browse through the post real quick because I must leave. 

Have you tried changing directions? A parking lot or wide area would be best for this. If there is tension on the leash, change direction to your left or right. For your own sake, keep changing in the same direction, so as to not dizzy yourself.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

With loose leash walking, I don't care where the dogs are, as long as they aren't pulling. So, it sounds like you're doing just fine.

Heel is a position, and one I rarely require when on a regular walk with the dogs (kind've hard anyway with 4 dogs!). With two dogs walking on loose leash, one on each side, I will vary the walk with a cue to heel, which also means pay very close attention to mama! lol Maddy and Beau love it when I ask for a heel, then suddenly stop going forward, and go backward, instead. Then forward, backward, forward, to the right, zig zag, figure 8s, and so on. Gives a little variation to a simple walk, and reinforces their focus on me. I continue to be in awe of how quick they are - and, how they're able to outsmart me, figuring out what I'm about to do before I actually do it, so their movement with me is smooth and fluid. Makes it fun for me and the dogs!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Rather than stopping, reverse direction. Go from forward to backward. Don't turn around, but just start walking backward. Continue to walk backwards until the dog is back at your side. When you reverse, the easy walk will turn the dog around, and he'll head to you. When the leash is loose - then you go forward again, and have a chance to treat!
This method works for my dogs and my students. Consistency is KEY.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm on the fence on this one. I don't view heel as 'just' a position...it's very much an "active" behavior, unlike loose leash walking, which I view as a passive behavior. Active in the sense that if you move the dog is suppose to follow your position and remain in the same relation to you. It takes quite a bit of behavior to do that, it's complex, it can take years to perfect, but not really that hard to train IMO, and certainly worth including in your bag of tricks. 

That said, I don't believe it's necessary to teach the dog heel to have loose leash walking, but it's pretty darn handy in tight situations and when you need the dog to do something other than what it's doing for short periods of time - especially when extinction (being a tree) seems to have no effect.

I've handled a number of dogs who weren't receptive to loose leash walking training, but found their way there after I taught them some heeling. So although I don't believe it necessary, I do think it can be a way to get behavior when you're having trouble with other means.


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## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks for the comments. This is all very helpful! Silly as this may sound, I think I just wasn't really sure of the *difference* between heel and loose leash. Duke will never be a show dog--the goal is for walks to be fun for both of us and for me to have control when needed. I hike a lot in the woods with him, so I need control if another hiker (perhaps with a dog) passes on the trail, a squirrel jumps out, those kinds of distractions. He's not there yet, but we're working on it. 

The training school we go to does a class dedicated to heel, so when a new class starts, I'm all over it! Like some of you mention, it would be good to have in certain situations, but I certainly don't want him heeling the whole time we walk. That'd be no fun for Duke! My problem with teaching heel is timing. I'm not sure when to treat, when to say "heel," how to correct when he breaks position...basically all of it! I'll have to check out some of the Dunbar videos or YouTube and see if there are some good how-to's. Seeing it helps me "get it."

We walked 1.5 miles last night with a mostly loose leash...the walking backwards tip REALLY HELPED! Duke finds this to be a really fun game, so if he's happy, I'm happy.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DukesMom said:


> My problem with teaching heel is timing. I'm not sure when to treat, when to say "heel," how to correct when he breaks position...basically all of it! I'll have to check out some of the Dunbar videos or YouTube and see if there are some good how-to's. Seeing it helps me "get it."


Dunbar teaches more loose leash walking than heeling. Of course you should not get into the habit of giving a behavior a name until it is robust. So don't worry about the cue until you have the behavior. 

There are a number of ways to teach the behavior/position of heel. Some more forceful than others...I prefer hands-off approaches. So when you click and treat is largely dependent on where you are in the behavior. To simplify what behavior you're looking for, think of it as your dog's butt swinging around towards your leg. You click when you see the butt move in the right direction and treat where you want the dog to go next. That part you'll have to fight through on your own as it is very difficult to describe in words (at least for me).

Now, you can't just start heel from anywhere, and it actually starts with your dog targeting a platform with his front paws. This will keep him from moving his front body as he actively works to move his bum around. 

Here's a vid of a pup doing this. 





Once you've got the dog to place both his front paws on the platform, it's just a matter of you moving around the platform (slowly) to get the dog to reorient towards your front (you click his butt movement towards your leg). Then the hard work begins...minimizing your movements and maximizing your dog's movement. Again, that's a skill I can't translate into words other than to say you need to be conscious of your approximations (both in what you do and what you expect from your dog). It can come quick or not.


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## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Now, you can't just start heel from anywhere, and it actually starts with your dog targeting a platform with his front paws. This will keep him from moving his front body as he actively works to move his bum around.
> 
> Here's a vid of a pup doing this.
> 
> Once you've got the dog to place both his front paws on the platform, it's just a matter of you moving around the platform (slowly) to get the dog to reorient towards your front (you click his butt movement towards your leg). Then the hard work begins...minimizing your movements and maximizing your dog's movement. Again, that's a skill I can't translate into words other than to say you need to be conscious of your approximations (both in what you do and what you expect from your dog). It can come quick or not.


THANK YOU! This is what I needed...a visual. I've never heard of training heel with a platform like this (although that's not saying much!). I've also never trained with a clicker, but have thought about trying it. Will it really confuse Duke if a I bring a clicker into the mix now??


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DukesMom said:


> Will it really confuse Duke if a I bring a clicker into the mix now??


IME EVERYTHING is confusing to the dog in the beginning. So, yes, it may confuse him, but the point is his learning, so that's okay. If you're not familiar with the clicker there is a free 7 day training course amongst the stickies in this forum. It should be a good start in learning about this tool.


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## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks again. I'll give the stickie a look and try out the suggestions. 

My only hesitation with the clicker was that I was afraid the "click" would resemble the sound of getting his nails clipped. Weird, I know, but he is terrified by that sound. I've tried every suggestion offered to desensitize him and nothing works. The only time he ever allowed someone to clip his nails stress-free was at an outdoor dog-wash fundraiser for the Humane Society. It was loud, there were lots of distractions and before he (or I) knew it, the clipping was done. If only I could reproduce that on a weekly basis! If you've read my other post, Duke has some anxiety issues...noises are one of them.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

It certainly terrifies my new rescue Kaya.

Even watching clicker videos on youtube had the effect but not as bad.

I noticed her looking like she was going to get all feared out about that and shut down though, and started dropping little piece of cheese every time the clicker clicked in the video. She got over it pretty well by about the 30th little piece of cheese, ears eventually came up, and she got a little eager.

I thought, hmm, and got out the clicker, wrapped it up so it would be quieter, and she continued eating the cheese bits even with the real muffled clicker, though her response showed she was very close to shutting down again she didn't.

I think several sessions of youtube video click and treat sessions and maybe a new quieter clicker and I may be in business.

You might want to be careful in introducing a clicker, I wasn't. Just got the clicker out and clicked and treated, second click she refused to take any food at all.

Kaya is very noise sensitive, I wonder if she is just has very sensitive hearing. She has big radar dish ears, and big open funnel ear canals I could stick my thumb down.


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## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

TxRider said:


> It certainly terrifies my new rescue Kaya.
> 
> Even watching clicker videos on youtube had the effect but not as bad.
> 
> ...


It's great (although sad) to hear from someone who has the same noise sensitivity issue. It's a really difficult thing to deal with. I still am not sure I'm approaching it correctly.

But the muffled clicker is a GREAT idea...I'll give it a try. Are there different kinds of clickers or is it one-size-fits-all?

One of the methods I tried for desensitizing Duke to the sound of nail clipping was to clip a bamboo skewer (sounds just like nails) and then of course, treat with the sound. Didn't work AT ALL. He just took off at the sound and stood in the other room, looking at with me nervous eyes, tail tucked--really wanting that treat, but just too scared of the sound to come get it. I tried this approach over the course of several weeks and it just never worked. Breaks my heart, I just want to take all that fear or sensitivity or whatever it is away from him.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DukesMom said:


> Thanks again. I'll give the stickie a look and try out the suggestions.
> 
> My only hesitation with the clicker was that I was afraid the "click" would resemble the sound of getting his nails clipped. Weird, I know, but he is terrified by that sound. I've tried every suggestion offered to desensitize him and nothing works. The only time he ever allowed someone to clip his nails stress-free was at an outdoor dog-wash fundraiser for the Humane Society. It was loud, there were lots of distractions and before he (or I) knew it, the clipping was done. If only I could reproduce that on a weekly basis! If you've read my other post, Duke has some anxiety issues...noises are one of them.


In that case you may have to experiment. The click of a ball point pen, a squeaker from a dog toy, a whistle...anything that makes a quick, uniform, and consistent sound, that your dog doesn't find averse, are options. A verbal word may be used too, however, it may prove less effective, but it can still be useful. I would suggest starting with the highest reward possible...something novel and foul smelling if you do experiment with a clicker. Don't rush it, and if the dog learns he can only have this high valued reward around that one sound, well, he may find it not so averse after all.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

DukesMom said:


> It's great (although sad) to hear from someone who has the same noise sensitivity issue. It's a really difficult thing to deal with. I still am not sure I'm approaching it correctly.
> 
> But the muffled clicker is a GREAT idea...I'll give it a try. Are there different kinds of clickers or is it one-size-fits-all?
> 
> One of the methods I tried for desensitizing Duke to the sound of nail clipping was to clip a bamboo skewer (sounds just like nails) and then of course, treat with the sound. Didn't work AT ALL. He just took off at the sound and stood in the other room, looking at with me nervous eyes, tail tucked--really wanting that treat, but just too scared of the sound to come get it. I tried this approach over the course of several weeks and it just never worked. Breaks my heart, I just want to take all that fear or sensitivity or whatever it is away from him.


To be fair, I got the clicker for Hope before I got Kaya. I got the sturdiest looking one I could find and it's rather loud. Hope doesn't mind it a bit and never though about Kaya being terrified of it. I tried it after about two weeks with her and didn't realize the extremity of her reaction until it was too late.

The squeaky toy is a marvelous idea. I just happen to have one she chewed and squeaked herself and Hope started tearing open so I took it away.

That would be a much better solution for me. I'll have to try that.

I'll have to get her to squeak it up herself for a bit first, just to be safe though.

I'm also considering some sound desensitization CD's.


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## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

The squeaky is a great idea! Duke goes NUTS for squeakies. And the sound doesn't spook him at all.

I'm pretty sure there are toys with refillable squeakers and you can buy just the squeaky piece...that would be perfect for training and just the right size.

As for the loose leash walking...we just got back from a long walk. Duke did great for the first mile or so. I've relaxed on expectations for both of us. Now that I "get" that walks are not heeling, it's a lot easier.  He actually does great--I think I was being a little too hard on both of us. 

However...just when I was feeling a little too confident...a raccoon darted across the street. In a nutshell, Duke lost his mind. He started howling--almost baying like a blood hound--and was almost uncontrollable on the leash. Now, this stems from the possum that took up residence in our yard about a month ago (although has since moved on). Duke is neurotic about that possum and I'm sure he thought the **** was his nemesis.

I could hardly control him, we were at an intersection with traffic, and I didn't know what to do...so I turned around and RAN. Like the wind. Good thing I'm a distance runner, because I think we ran over a 1/2 mile before I started slowing down. By then, Duke had gotten out some of that nervous energy and seemed to have lost his hyperfocus on the ****. He was still distracted the rest of the way home, but not lunging and freaking out like before.

Guess I need to do a little proofing with distractions with this new loose-leash thing....



TxRider said:


> I'm also considering some sound desensitization CD's.


By the way...Duke LOVES classical piano. And white noise CD's. I recently read a book titled "through a Dog's Ear" by Joshua Leeds and Susan Wagner. The book came with a piano CD and I've since bought a couple others. I swear by it--that music puts him right to sleep!

The book is an interesting read. It offers insight that seems common sense but I hadn't thought of before. Like leaving a TV on for the dog. Bad idea! It can be way overstimulating to dogs and worse of all...they can't escape it. I personally would go crazy if forced to listen to a TV all day long, but never thought about it having that same effect on my dog!

Although the book does really tout their website and other CD's, which got old toward the end. 

It's simply written and short, but I'd say still worth checking out.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

It looks like the squeaky toy is a win, eventually.

Kaya started to get scared of it, even after playing with it and squeaking it herself. I think she got the idea any sound coming from me with a treat is suspect after the clicker stuff.

I saw where she was going early though this time. I walked away, no eye contact, no pressure, no voice, and started squeaking and dropping yummy pieces of baked chicken as I walked around the house at random intervals, and the lure was too much.

What really got it was doing walking past Hope, and Kaya going into "I better get it before she does" mode and the fear and caution response seemed to evaporate.

I'm still going to have to patiently walk around the house squeaking and dropping a kibble and occasionally some more chicken every day for a week or so and get her confident and eager for the sound before trying to train with it I think though. Play a few games squeaking from the other room at random, and giving a jackpot etc.

Gotta say I'm a little stoked...


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## DukesMom (Oct 21, 2009)

That's awesome! Whatever it takes, right?

I picked up a package of squeakers. Just the little plastic piece, not a whole toy. So far...so good. He doesn't freak at all on the sound. Now I need to really read up on clicker training.

I wonder, though, does this mean no more playing with squeaky toys? Think they will get really confused by that sound in a completely different context?

Chicken is what I use...lots and lots of it. I made the mistake of hiking in the woods today with Duke using store bought treats...just not the same response. Way too much competing for his attention--like the fish carcass on the riverbank or the dead furry something he found along with a few piles of poop. Fortunately, he knows "leave it" it or I would've had a stinky ride home.

BTW, as a side note, I bought Duke a backpack yesterday. He is a different dog with that pack on! He really acts like he has a purpose or something. I had heard they could help, and I hike A LOT, so I figured, why not? Now he carries all the water, poop bags and other stuff. He walked like a drunken sailor at first, but quickly got used to it. I think he actually likes it!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DukesMom said:


> I wonder, though, does this mean no more playing with squeaky toys? Think they will get really confused by that sound in a completely different context?


I would think that it would not be a problem. Assuming he associates the sound with the appropriate behavior during training, chomping on a chew toy during play would be the appropriate behavior too, and continuing play the reward. If anything it would make him want to chomp on squeaky toys more often. But I also suspect he'd be able to discriminate between the two.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

In my case it's the only squeaky toy in the house, but I would think the dog could tell the difference between two of them, and between training and not.

It should be able to know when you squeak it means a treat, not any time it hears a squeak I would think.


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