# Dog scared of food bowl?



## Shwood24 (May 8, 2015)

I recently messed up. I've been teaching my 12 week old GSD puppy to sit before I sit down his food bowl and it's been going great. But the other day he got a little too excited and jumped up and knocked the bowl out of my hand. I yelled at him really loudly and gave him a gentle shake by the scruff of his neck like I do when he does something really bad. He ran from me and hid for a while before later coming and cuddling with me while I apologized to him. Now whenever I call him to be fed and I'm holding the food bowl he cowers down and hides behind my legs. He even peed in the floor out of submission today when I called him to be fed. Have I ruined meal time forever? Is there anything I can do?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Stop yelling and stop shaking him.

Start watching Zak George (youtube and follow him on facebook.) Watch kikopup, read dogstardaily.com. You can train dogs without scaring them. No fallout, no damaged relationship, just a well-trained, happy, confident dog.

My dog was scared of his food bowl when I got him. He probably had just never eaten out of a bowl. I hand fed him and over the course of a couple of weeks, slowly got my hand closer to the bowl, into the bowl and then just near the bowl as he ate out of it. Then I switched to feeding from toys because he eats too fast and chokes himself, but that's my dog.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

He will most likely move past this and all will be fine. Now you know how sensitive your little guy is, so you have good information on moving forward.

Possibly changing the picture would help, like go and feed in a different room for a few days, or head outside. Just change the picture.

I recently attended a seminar on teaching impulse control. We had to put a bowl of fantastic treats down on the ground and work off-leash around it, sending the dogs to the bowl on the cue, "Get It." There was one rule: We were not allowed to touch the dog or raise our voices. If the dog went for the bowl, we were allowed to cover or grab the bowl, but we couldn't mess with the dog. It was hysterical and wildly difficult. Going forward, perhaps you can do the same sit/stay, but if your dog goes for the bowl, just pick it up, reset the dog, and start over. No raised voice, no touching the dog. Just take control of the bowl and let your pup learn that the fastest way to the meal is by doing a short sit/stay. No matter how much your pup struggles, all that happens is the bowl gets lifted. This should go a long ways towards rebuilding confidence.

Good luck with your pup!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Great advice above!



trainingjunkie said:


> I recently attended a seminar on teaching impulse control. We had to put a bowl of fantastic treats down on the ground and work off-leash around it, sending the dogs to the bowl on the cue, "Get It." There was one rule: We were not allowed to touch the dog or raise our voices. If the dog went for the bowl, we were allowed to cover or grab the bowl, but we couldn't mess with the dog. It was hysterical and wildly difficult. Going forward, perhaps you can do the same sit/stay, but if your dog goes for the bowl, just pick it up, reset the dog, and start over. No raised voice, no touching the dog. Just take control of the bowl and let your pup learn that the fastest way to the meal is by doing a short sit/stay. No matter how much your pup struggles, all that happens is the bowl gets lifted. This should go a long ways towards rebuilding confidence.


That's a really cool game! Can you give more details? How many treats were in the bowl? Could they eat all of them when released? Just one? If one, I guess you also had to call them away? Did you use a regular recall? A known cue?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

The game can be used for so many things. My dog and I used it to proof a competition ring entrance, set up, and first step of heeling. Once he approached the ring, entered, sat attentively in heel position and ignored the judge, and took one step forward, I said "Get It!" and my dog got to charge the bowl and eat all 5 treats. 

You could use if for heeling, retrieving, recalling, coming to front... Anything really.

My advanced dog does this while doing utility work. At any point, I can say "get it" and he goes and gets his own goodies. It's pretty fun. It lets you work with no food on you at all and still has the dog comfortable that reinforcement is near. A great proofing exercise. But the Golden Rule is that you can cover/lift/grab the bowl but not the dog. Can't even use a "leave it" or a "no." Makes you set up sessions very mindfully. It's a killer to have the dog get the bowl when he wasn't supposed to!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks so much! Sounds like a fun game and very similar to what we learned as "cookies on the table" in our classes except your version is "cookies on the floor". We're not that advanced yet, but getting there.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Shwood24 said:


> I yelled at him really loudly and gave him a gentle shake by the scruff of his neck* like I do when he does something really bad.*


Stop punishing your dog.

There is nothing a pup can do that deserves punishment. For that matter, impo there is virtually nothing an adolescent or adult can do that deserves punishment either, but especially a 12 week old puppy. They're brand new to this world, they have absolutely no understanding of what is acceptable behavior and what is not. Punishing them will most likely only lead to a dog who is mistrustful and confused. As you've noticed. And, it can last a lifetime.

"reward the good and IGNORE the bad" is probably your best course of action at this stage of the game. Management and puppy-proofing your home will play a major role as well.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Instead of scaring the pee out of him...
Teach him what you want, not what you dont want. It wont be long before you have a big dog beside you, not this little puppy. Start as you mean to continue. Dont want him on the furniture, dont allow it now. Dont want him jumping, teach him to sit for treats/greetings/whatever. Basically you have a behavior you dont like...teach something that would make that behavior impossible. 



> But the other day he got a little too excited and jumped up and knocked the bowl out of my hand.


This is puppy excitement. Food is one of the best things in his life. Its required for survival so of course he's going to be excited when he sees it. 

Just remember you're dealing with another living, breathing being with feelings of his own. Teach him that YOU will protect him. Be patient, gentle and kind as you guide him to becoming an amazing adult dog. Just because he'll be a big boy one day doesnt mean you have to use harsh punishments.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

You didn't handle the situation well at all. But I disagree with some of the advice given. 

It's one of the most important things for a dog to have impulse control and eat on command and pick up food after he is done. It goes a long way in training. It goes a long way in having a calm non resource guarding/dangerous dogs. Simply put every dog should eat this way.

That said never lose your temper with a dog. You could of just worked the sit, and picked up bowl consistently until he obeyed command. Eventually he realizes the faster he sits and keeps still the faster he gets his bowl.

We're past that now and he is afraid. Not a big deal tho. Put an extra nice treat in his bowl like a piece of chicken or steak with kibble. And walk away after you give the eat command.. Or if he does not have an eat command make one. Or just use good. 

Also buy a new food bowl. He may be associating his food bowl as a no go zone now. You will confuse him. Also change spot of feeding. If you have a crate feed him in his crate. (Crate should be a safe zone).

After giving him permission to eat walk away. You can slowly build trust again by getting closer slowly to throw in pieces of high value reward like chicken in his bowl. And walk away. Eventually coming closer and closer.
Never take away his food once you give it to him. It's his food. (Food bowl and command to eat is still yours) but what goes in and after command to eat is his. You wouldn't like being interrepted whilst eating. It is threatening to a dog to maybe lose his resource. Your presence there should never be of negative association. Only good. I.e he may get a better treat.
Zack George is not a good source of information.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

WesS said:


> You didn't handle the situation well at all. But I disagree with much of the advice given.
> 
> It's one of the most important things for a dog to have impulse control and eat on command and pick up food after he is done. It goes a long way in training. It goes a long way in having a calm non resource guarding/dangerous dogs. Simply put every dog should eat this way.
> 
> ...


Some of this might be advice I would use if a dog was resource guarding the food/bowl, but not for being afraid of the bowl.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> > You didn't handle the situation well at all. But I disagree with much of the advice given.
> ...


Seems that you only read first two paragraphs. This should be done with all dogs. Why address a problem when you can pre empty a problem and not have it in first place. Always done this. Never had a resource guarding dog.

That said explain to me why those suggestions would not work. And what you would do different and what it is you disagree with?
Happy to discuss it.

He is afraid of the bowl. So you build trust again. Leaving the food bowl out to eat whenever he wants is not how you positively train any dog with treats. It's just wrong.

He made a terrible mistake. But regardless the dog now has impulse control. Why work against something good that is already established. He over corrected a puppy and created fear. Now he needs to build confidence. He can also feed out of hand. And start throwing food in the new bowl.
Just build the confidence back up.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Buying new bowls, feeding in a new spot, dropping chicken in the bowl etc ... will only get you so far.

What this poster needs most is to get rid of the "punishment" mindset altogether, and in it's place adopt a positive approach to use with all facets of their training. That's where the lion's share of improvements will be made, especially when it comes to establishing / rebuilding confidence. I see nothing wrong with looking to Zak George for general advice re: the foundations of a proper and healthy relationship with their pet.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> Buying new bowls, feeding in a new spot, dropping chicken in the bowl etc ... will only get you so far.
> 
> What this poster needs most is to get rid of the "punishment" mindset altogether, and in it's place adopt a positive approach to use with all facets of their training. That's where the lion's share of improvements will be made, especially when it comes to establishing / rebuilding confidence. I see nothing wrong with looking to Zak George for general advice re: the foundations of a proper and healthy relationship with their pet.


All my recommendations were positive.
Zack George does not even understand clicker training properly. He does not follow some basic principles of operant conditioning. He often is careless. He is a real estate agent who made it big on YouTube.

Also you gave no real recommendations. Looks like with you its: 'Google afraid to eat from bowl-zack George' not the way it works.
Again my recommendations are purely positive here. So I don't know what your issue is. Also I fail to see you giving any solutions?

Puppy is too young for corrections firstly. Secondly he does not seem to understand much about dog training. So yes I would agree with you, he should only be using positive methods. But that's due to lack of understanting. Not because of its the correct way long term. Always train a dog positively so it understands and generalizes commands. But eventually the dog chooses and that point there is a need for corrections to have consistent results. Now lifting and yelling at a puppy is not a proper correction. He just lost his temper. No ascosiation to proper training.


For 'internet' training...
For all positive try Karen Pryor maybe. Try Sophia yin. You want top notch look up Michael Ellis, who is a balanced trainer.

I'm sorry zg is marketable and that's about all he has going for him. I've seen him do things on his video with dogs with social fear, and other situations and he handles the situation very wrong. He causes severe stress to some fearful dogs with his advice.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

WesS said:


> All my recommendations were positive.
> Zack George does not even understand clicker training properly. He does not follow some basic principles of operant conditioning. He often is careless. He is a real estate agent who made it big on YouTube.
> 
> Also you gave no real recommendations. Looks like with you its: 'Google afraid to eat from bowl-zack George' not the way it works.
> ...


Could you give an example of videos with dogs showing severe stress based on his methods?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

WesS said:


> I'm sorry zg is marketable and that's about all he has going for him. I've seen him do things on his video with dogs with social fear, and other situations and he handles the situation very wrong. He causes severe stress to some fearful dogs with his advice.


 Not trying to turn this into a pro / anti Zak George thread, but I'm curious. Can you substantiate your claim by posting a link to the video(s) you speak of?

And fwiw, Michael Ellis? he's ok, but he's certainly not what I would consider as "top notch". Although that's strictly a matter of personal opinion, I suppose.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

WesS said:


> Also I fail to see you giving any solutions?


You fail? yeah. Doesn't mean I didn't give any though.

Forest, meet trees.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> Not trying to turn this into a pro / anti Zak George thread, but I'm curious. Can you substantiate your claim by posting a link to the video(s) you speak of?
> 
> And fwiw, Michael Ellis? he's ok, but he's certainly not what I would consider as "top notch". Although that's strictly a matter of personal opinion, I suppose.


If you consider ZG is top class. I would love to see him do this, whilst under heavy distractions from other dogs and environment. You are right. There are many great trainers, most people have never heard of. Michael Ellis however has some celebrity stardom and some accessible videos to get people in right direction.





Here is one video of ZG giving bad advice. You are not really going to understand why I find this advice and approach stressfull to the dog. So I will give a similar video of Michael ellis dealing with the same problem. The thing is the video, is not really for that dog anyways. He is giving advice for people to 'do it themselves' with strangers feeding their fearfull dogs. This is dangerous, not only for the people, but for the psychology of the dog. Now even with this, dog, he moves way to fast into feeding. He is ignoring other training principles, of getting attention to owner, and is instead trying to make buddy buddy with the stranger. (Causing dog to ignore owner, and commands, causing dog to be completely reliant on interaction with the stranger.)

Now to be honest this is not a really fearfull dog - not really. Zack never actually shows footage of real problem dogs. However in this video he suggests strangers approaching and treating dogs. There is a fundamental flaw, here. Real fearfull dogs, can be A- Dangerous, B - Put under severe stress when a stranger comes and tries to either pet, feed, or interact with a fearfull dog. The stranger may be nervy and jumpy himself. This will feed into energy of both the dog, and the visitor/friend/stranger to dog. This is not the way to build trust, and alliviate fear in a scared/fearfull dog.





This is how it should be done. And he does not even call it 'addressing a fearfull dog". Again prevention is better than cure. But you can see a very FUNDAMENTAL difference in approach. Ellis suggests controlling the environment. Ellis suggest keeping focus on you. He suggests dog is engaged on you, and sees you as more interesting, with rest background noise. Ellis suggests increasing disctractions, and environmental pressure, progressively and slowly, and alieviting situations out of your own control, where 3rd parties can make dog even more fearful.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EORq7MOOioA

Now most people wont see the small subtleties in approach. But one video, can be reproduced by people at home, and get real results. And the other, in the wrong hands can be a disaster waiting to happen.

What ellis is doing is slowly increasing stressors (Distractions really.. He makes dog comfortablly train just before levels of any real stress, before he bridges those gaps.). From new stranger completely IGNORING the dog. To moving, talking, being more of a distraction. Eventually if you real want to (Not a great idea, for training purposes) get the person to feed the dog.

Dont want to make this an internet training thread. I just see fundamental flaws on Zack Georges approach and many of his videos. There are many better alternatives. Thousands of trainers. So no I would not recommend training your dog based on any advice by him. My personal suggestion. You are welcome to disagree. Readers can consider both our opinions.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't really see why we're all arguing here? WesS suggested the same things as others here (trainingjunkie specifically), in regards to using positive methods and picking up the bowl when the puppy jumps/putting it down when puppy is calm. He/she also recommended some stuff to prevent resource guarding which I don't think sounds like an issue here, but it is sound advice that I've seen many others give on this same forum. So what are we arguing about exactly?

And FWIW, I can't stand Zak George. His personality is annoying and his videos aren't the best. I also do like Michael Ellis - though I do not use every technique he recommends, I think he typically has sound advice and good strategies, though often for a more advanced level of training than we are talking here. I think KikoPup would be a good recommendation for the OP - simple videos that show exactly how to positively get the behavior you want from your puppy.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I don't really see why we're all arguing here? WesS suggested the same things as others here (trainingjunkie specifically), in regards to using positive methods and picking up the bowl when the puppy jumps/putting it down when puppy is calm. He/she also recommended some stuff to prevent resource guarding which I don't think sounds like an issue here, but it is sound advice that I've seen many others give on this same forum. So what are we arguing about exactly?
> 
> And FWIW, I can't stand Zak George. His personality is annoying and his videos aren't the best. I also do like Michael Ellis - though I do not use every technique he recommends, I think he typically has sound advice and good strategies, though often for a more advanced level of training than we are talking here. I think KikoPup would be a good recommendation for the OP - simple videos that show exactly how to positively get the behavior you want from your puppy.


I wasn't meaning to argue. I just haven't seen a video of Zak's where the dog seemed stressed, but obviously I haven't seen EVERY video he's done, so I was curious.

He's not for everyone in terms of personality, of course, but that's different than claiming his technique is bad/wrong.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I wasn't meaning to argue. I just haven't seen a video of Zak's where the dog seemed stressed, but obviously I haven't seen EVERY video he's done, so I was curious.
> 
> He's not for everyone in terms of personality, of course, but that's different than claiming his technique is bad/wrong.


I haven't watched him enough to see if the dogs are stressed or whatever, but I've been very underwhelmed by the videos I have seen. Not that the techniques were bad or wrong, but they seemed overly simplified for a viewer to get much out of them I guess. ETA: Though I'm sure a video about teaching your puppy not to jump is pretty hard to screw up.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I haven't watched him enough to see if the dogs are stressed or whatever, but I've been very underwhelmed by the videos I have seen. Not that the techniques were bad or wrong, but they seemed overly simplified for a viewer to get much out of them I guess. ETA: Though I'm sure a video about teaching your puppy not to jump is pretty hard to screw up.


Yea, I think a lot of his stuff is geared toward a different audience than, say, kikopup. Most of his videos are for first time or new dog owners with basic questions. So yea, if you're beyond that level and need more in depth insight it can seem a bit redundant and simplistic.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Yea, I think a lot of his stuff is geared toward a different audience than, say, kikopup. Most of his videos are for first time or new dog owners with basic questions. So yea, if you're beyond that level and need more in depth insight it can seem a bit redundant and simplistic.


But it goes beyond that. His approach to a fearful/scared dog as shown in video I posted is a bit negligent in my opinion. Now I dont want to argue balanced/all positive training in this thread. So I will say Karen Pryor, is really good as an all positive dog trainer. Now as for Ellis. He is mostly all positive anyways. Especially with new dogs learning the ropes. He corrects at a later stage, for reliability for important commands, and for competition training. His free videos are only giving positive advice anyways. Has something called social consciousness. He leaves more advanced training that needs guidance for more direct instruction.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

WesS said:


> But it goes beyond that. His approach to a fearful/scared dog as shown in video I posted is a bit negligent in my opinion.


I'm not able to watch the video ATM, but I will check it out later.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't like Zac George, either. He covers and recovers the same ground and the advice he gives and what he shows isn't just rudimentary they are often lacking any real... skill? Sometimes his timing is RADICALLY bad (some of the reactivity videos) I *don't* think he's usually promoting things that are dangerous (usually, his cult of fetch is sometimes a bit worrying for me) but he just doesn't actually seem to know how to cope with anything but basically stable, mentally sound, normal dogs with typical behavioral problems.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I'm sure he's helping people, but my GOD how many videos do we need promoting a dog to stop pulling on the leash or barking where the answer is fetch, distance, real meat and ~sincere engagement~? 

And speaking of leash walking his belief that dogs pull the leash simply because they walk faster than people cracks me up. I don't know. For a guy making youtube videos, he's not bad. He's just... not much of an actual dog trainer.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

To be fair, he does often poll people on his FB asking what kind of video they want to see. Obviously I'm not tabulating the results myself to see if he's ACTUALLY doing what they want, but if he is just doing what the people are asking for help with... you can't really fault him for that.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I sort of can? Because when people are asking for another leash pulling video and he makes the same video again except with a different dog, and he's got thousands of dollars a month coming in for him to create new material.... Create new material, maybe? (Check out his protean page - guy is not doing this from the goodness of his heart).

On one hand, yes, give people what they ask for but. Another method of dealing with the issue, or some different talk about various motivations for the behavior or SOMETHING would be nice.

But you are right in that people are paying him and will keep paying him so he's obviously making at least some of them incredibly happy and providing what they want. I just wish he'd up his own bar a little, for showing skill, finesse, and understanding of dog behavior.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Everything CptJack said.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

He cant produce anything original or worthwhile. All he can do is copy paste or focus on really basic things. When he steps up and does somthing more, he gets it so wrong its scary. Or he will just rip off others curriculum. Sorry he is a brilliant youtuber/marketer etc. Probably loves dogs, but he is very confused and out of his depth.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also having watched that video of Zac dealing with the 'fearful' dog - I have to agree that that flies in the face of everything I've learned and know about actually socializing with even an uncertain or remotely fearful dog. I mean I don't think it's dangerous in this case, but is it appropriate for a dog with even a real minor issue? No. Is it the best handling even here? No. There is a reason, I think, my actual trainer's response to fearful or uncertain dogs is to ignore, turn her back or her side, and let the dog take treats (IF IT APPROACHES ON ITS OWN, AFTER usually long periods of ignoring) from her hand while she's looking the other way. 

:/



WesS said:


> he is a brilliant youtuber/marketer etc. Probably loves dogs, but he is very confused and out of his depth.


Yes.

I mean let's be honest here, would you pay for this guy to train your dog? I know he's done training classes in the past, and I do think having free, basic, material available to help people who are struggling is good but. I wouldn't give this guy money for in person sessions. He seems like a nice guy, I don't begrudge him his success, and I *do* think that there is a market for him (...and evidence supports that) but he really isn't much of a trainer.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

Look in essence you need to recreate more positive experience's to the negative. Here is a good series by Ellis on Fear periods in young dogs. Part one is most applicable to Thread starter. Part two, similarly explains for the ZG people, why strangers feeding a fearful dog is a bad idea. As he correctly states, dogs that are extremely fearful or stressed, WILL NOT accept food. This is significantly in accordance with thread starter. You need to find ways to reduce stress levels, and re-approach as the bowl, etc. positively.

Which is why I made suggestion, to change bowl and place (Reduce stress). To move away from food (Reduce stress). If you use a crate, feed in crate? He is comfortable there. Let him in first. Then place food, walk away. He feels secure. Nobody can grab him. Food is his. (Reduce stress again) Have a nice treat in there, or around dog food, is another posibility. (create positive high value association.) Slowly get closer and throw chicken pieces etc. inside dog food. (Rebuild trust, and avoid resource guarding behaviour).
But dont forget to give eat command before you walk away. Or break the sit. You could do this, by saying eat, (when he is sitting) Throwing reward around, and then in food. And just walk away. First few times you could jackpot dog with food bowl. I.e. a training stress free training session. And then have significant amount of treats in food bowl.
Use your imagination. But principle is reduce stress. Build a positive association.





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOuwZcqnwcs





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kjywxm-O6I





https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjWBnJ69FDM


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Just for the record and to dispel any notion to the contrary, I am NOT a supporter of ZG, nor for that matter of his videos in general. Not even close (I have spoke out against him here in the past if you do a search). However, it seems as though the op could benefit greatly from losing the punishment mindset in favour of a more positive overall approach as I stated earlier. With that in mind I believe ZG would at least be a small step in the right direction. Also fwiw I do agree completely, he gives horrible advice on how best to deal with fear of PEOPLE, but that's not what is at issue here. End of the day, ZG is probably ok to use for a basic philosophical _turnaround_ point as amaryllis more or less suggested.

The op has to start *somewhere*, right? Perhaps kikopup would be a better choice for this purpose, as elrohwen (and amaryllis originally) said.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> I just wish he'd up his own bar a little, for showing skill, finesse, and understanding of dog behavior.


 Right. I'd LOVE to see him compete in say, an agility, rally, or ob ring for example. And with a N.O.B. I can just imagine how that would go .... ound: lol


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> Just for the record and to dispel any notion to the contrary, I am NOT a supporter of ZG, nor for that matter of his videos in general. Not even close (I have spoke out against him here in the past if you do a search). However, it seems as though the op could benefit greatly from losing the punishment mindset in favour of a more positive overall approach as I stated earlier. With that in mind I believe ZG would at least be a small step in the right direction. Also fwiw I do agree completely, he gives horrible advice on how best to deal with fear of PEOPLE, but that's not what is at issue here. End of the day, ZG is probably ok to use for a basic philosophical _turnaround_ point as amaryllis more or less suggested.
> 
> The op has to start *somewhere*, right? Perhaps kikopup would be a better choice for this purpose, as elrohwen (and amaryllis originally) said.



No No No. I just showed you why ZG is dangerous. And has silly advice Esp. On this matter. People or not. This is a Fearfull dog. Your not getting it. Sometimes its okay to learn something and not insist. You cant say 'you dont like ZG', and then say he is a good source of information on this topic. He is not. End of story. I get people have different opinions, and I repsect that. But now you are contradicting yourself. You just cant have a logical conversation with somebody who says you accept he is making these type of basic mistakes, and in the same sentence recommend him to thread starter. That just has no logical thinking. 

Watch the 3 videos I attached on fearfull periods with dogs by MicE. Its really good.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

WesS said:


> You cant say 'you dont like ZG', and then say he is a good source of information on this topic.


I don't think anyone said that?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Somebody got a REAL hate on for ZG. My feelings are pale in comparison I guess, and after years here I feel comfortable enough agreeing with the poster who recommended watching his videos along with kikopup's and Dr Dunbar's MAINLY for philosophical (R+) direction. Not necessarily for specific advice on fear of food bowls, especially since zg has no such video to my knowledge. Nor do the latter.

Then again, maybe we should also broadly discredit kikopup and Dr Dunbar and a host of others, strike them all from the list of go-to "recommendations"? because, you know, they all make mistakes _somewhere_ along the line too.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> Somebody got a REAL hate on for ZG. My feelings are pale in comparison I guess, and after years here I feel comfortable enough agreeing with the poster who recommended watching his videos along with kikopup's and Dr Dunbar's MAINLY for philosophical (R+) direction. Not necessarily for specific advice on fear of food bowls, especially since zg has no such video to my knowledge. Nor do the latter.
> 
> Then again, maybe we should also broadly discredit kikopup and Dr Dunbar and a host of others, strike them all from the list of go-to "recommendations"? because, you know, they all make mistakes _somewhere_ along the line too.



Never watched the other two. Dont know who they are. Maybe you need to watch less youtube for training your dog. Zack's videos are littered with mistakes. I showed you one serious example. I had to explain it to you. You would have never understood it otherwise. There are many. I have no interest in bashing him more, or deciphering multiple videos for you. But the reason you cant tell the difference, is because you just randomly google youtube videos, and thats where you get your info from. You are more interested in keeping face to your original suggestion, than learning. Similarly Zack George is the same. He is more interested in making money, and training people, than learning actual evidence based dog training methods. I just picked 'the most applicable video to the thread starters problem" that ZG had. There are many many videos, with bad timing and bad advice.

Want to google something usefull? Google and find out more about Opperant Conditioning (B.F. Skinner). Google Pavlov's Dogs (Experiment). And then think, how this applies to clicker training, and timing order, of Action-click/mark-reward. 

I dont want to make this into a bickering thread. Zack george has a big opinion on many things, top class trainers do. And frankly, he has no idea what he is talking about.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

The original suggestion was to look to someone with a more positive approach to dog relationships than the OP appeared to have. *No one* is saying ZG is a good trainer, only that he has a decent attitude towards training. Personally, I find the guy annoying and flighty and haven't been able to follow any videos I've watched. But, he's not yelling and scruffing his dog.

Just a tip, most posters here with a significant number of posts don't need basics in learning theory; they can explain it in their sleep.



> I dont want to make this into a bickering thread.


I think you're too late for that.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

cookieface said:


> The original suggestion was to look to someone with a more positive approach to dog relationships than the OP appeared to have. *No one* is saying ZG is a good trainer, only that he has a decent attitude towards training. Personally, I find the guy annoying and flighty and haven't been able to follow any videos I've watched. But, he's not yelling and scruffing his dog.
> 
> Just a tip, most posters here with a significant number of posts don't need basics in learning theory; they can explain it in their sleep.
> 
> ...


Seems not to be the case. Not the case at all. Posting on a forum does not give you that knowledge. Not with the attitude of 'oh I was wrong, but I am still right' - based on such and such a technicality. Why advise somebody to watch someone with bad advice?
I might as well tell him to watch barney the purple dinosaur and his friends. Their positive, and they hug a lot.
The fact is he GAVE NO INFORMATION. He CRITIQUED mine, with no reasoning behind it (He just said, it takes more than that, that wont do it, watch zack george). And then his answer is watch Zack George. (Who actually does not have a specific video about a dog fearing the food bowl.) And when I critiqued the closest thing to it, he replied: "Oh thats dealing with fear with people not food bowls".
Keep it coming. I spent a good amount of time on this thread. And gave some nice tips. Nobody has to like them, or follow them, but 'watch Zack George' is not a reply. 

I dont need a somebody trying to 'save face' by critiquing good posts. And his advice being: "watch more youtube- ZG". You don't need to watch zack george to get the idea of 'dont hit your dog'. You cant say, I don't support him, but watch him for advice? (comeon ppl, this does not make sense).
Also just for your information, All positive is not a superior approach, in fact it has some big holes. Its the beginning, its a big piece of a puzzle, but its not all their is, the op needs to build confidence, but the way Zack George goes on about everyone else is rediculous. He will put you on COMPLETELY the wrong path. Next I will hear 'victoria Stillwell', the actress from Bram Strokes Dracula, who got a TV deal for dog training, and apparently now she is the dog training IT girl. *Roll EYES*

I just read your contribution to this post initially. And it was actually really good. I actually said the same thing as part of my reply. But you really dont have to defend your budy on this.

The irony, is anybody with something credible to say, or who added value, agrees that ZG is making a lot of rookie mistakes. Yet its okay to endorse him?
Here is the problem. I have to type more, to convince people about why what they saw on ZG youtube channel does not make sense. I like being on dog forums, I like helping people. But we cant recommend things we dong agree with, and then explain why it is wrong. (Not to mention, he does not have a specific video on the matter). It is devoid of logic. Its a time drain, an energy drain. And it is just counterintuitive. There are many many many, all positives, if thats your thing, to recommend. Why stick with ZG. Find someone better, and recommend him/her. I am not going to attack the all positive mindset, if at the very least, they have credibility in what they do.
I was all positive for a very long time. So I know what its all about. I am still mostly positive. Funny how I only recommended positive interventions.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

WesS said:


> Never watched the other two. Dont know who they are. *Maybe you need to watch less youtube for training your dog.* Zack's videos are littered with mistakes. I showed you one serious example. I had to explain it to you. You would have never understood it otherwise. There are many. I have no interest in bashing him more, or deciphering multiple videos for you. But the reason you cant tell the difference, is *because you just randomly google youtube videos, and thats where you get your info from. *
> 
> Want to google something usefull? Google and find out more about Opperant Conditioning (B.F. Skinner). Google Pavlov's Dogs (Experiment). And then think, how this applies to clicker training, and timing order, of Action-click/mark-reward.


Emphasis mine. IIRC petpeeve IS a dog trainer. And most regular posters are more than familiar with operant conditioning. Dunbar is also someone who does books, that you _read_. I get that you are new this forum but it's a little silly to think people don't know who Patricia McConnell and Sophia Yin are and just watch youtube. Skinner and Pavlov are really, really just the tip of the iceberg in reading on behavior and training. 

I'm not sure why you keep going on about ZG if you don't want it to be a bickering thread. I get you want to prove your point but it's all just circular and you are now assuming other posters are stupid.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

WesS said:


> Zack's videos are littered with mistakes.


 As are your comments and blatantly misguided assumptions towards me.

Pot, meet kettle.

Gee this thread is chock full of nifty little clichés, isn't it.


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## WesS (May 12, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> WesS said:
> 
> 
> > Zack's videos are littered with mistakes.
> ...


Name one piece of advice I got wrong and tell me why. 

If you want to make big statements back them up. I sure backed up my critique on zg. Everyone seems to agree with my points on that zg video. Ironically even you who recommended him. 

Anyone can call himself a dog trainer.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

WesS said:


> Anyone can call himself a dog trainer.


But you don't want this to be a bickering thread, right?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, I think the OP has been scared off anyway.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Who said they hated prongs or ecollars?

And yes, I know Zak is anti-prong, and *gasp* I disagree with that stance. Fancy that!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Who said they hated prongs or ecollars?
> 
> And yes, I know Zak is anti-prong, and *gasp* I disagree with that stance. Fancy that!


Yes, I own and use a prong and an ecollar. I still recommend pretty much only positive training on forums. I think training with corrections is so much harder to get right, and so much harder to explain in a couple sentences online. You can mess up positive training techniques and it won't mess up the dog.

Plus, the dog in question is a puppy. I am pretty much pure positive when it comes to baby puppies.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

One person recommended ZG for general training methods and another mentioned that his style of working with dogs would work better for the OP than his current methods. It was fairly obvious that scaring his puppy wasn't working for the now-long-gone OP.



> I see nothing wrong with looking to Zak George for general advice re: the foundations of a proper and healthy relationship with their pet.


ZG isn't someone I'd recommend for training advice, but I don't think watching his videos is going to cause harm to _this particular_ dog-owner relationship.


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