# Purina One Beyond



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I know that Purina isn't the greatest, but has anyone checked out the newest formula: Purina One Beyond? The ingredients aren't half bad and Dog Food Advisor gives it 3 stars. 

Ingredient lists:

*Chicken & Whole Oat Meal Ingredients:*

Chicken, chicken meal, whole oat meal, whole barley, soybean meal, whole brown rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherois (form of Vitamin E), dried beet pulp, dried egg product, natural flavor, fish oil, caramel color, salt, dried carrots, dried tomatoes, dried apples, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Guaranteed Analysis 

Crude Protein (Min) 26.0% Crude Fat (Min) 17.0% Crude Fiber (Max) 4.0% Moisture (Max) 12.0% Linoleic Acid (Min) 1.5% Calcium (Ca) (Min) 1.0% Phosphorus (P) (Min) 0.8% Zinc (Zn) (Min) 150 ppm Selenium (Se) (Min) 0.35 ppm Vitamin A (Min) 14,000 IU/kg Vitamin E (Min) 150 IU/kg Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (Min) 0.35% Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (Min) 1.60% 

*Lamb & Whole Barley Ingredients:*

Lamb, chicken meal, whole barley, whole brown rice, whole oat meal, soybean meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), dried egg product, brewers dried yeast, dried beet pulp, natural flavor, fish oil, salt, caramel color, whole blueberries, dried sweet potatoes, dried spinach, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin E supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (Min) 26.0% Crude Fat (Min) 17.0% Crude Fiber (Max) 4.0% Moisture (Max) 12.0% Linoleic Acid (Min) 1.5% Calcium (Ca) (Min) 1.0% Phosphorus (P) (Min) 0.8% Zinc (Zn) (Min) 150 ppm Selenium (Se) (Min) 0.35 ppm Vitamin A (Min) 14,000 IU/kg Vitamin E (Min) 150 IU/kg Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (Min) 0.35% Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (Min) 1.60% 

Now, the "natural flavor" throws me a bit (natural flavor of what?), but, for a Purina product...could be worse.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I don't love the soybean meal, the beet pulp, or the caramel coloring, but you're right...this formula seems to be a big step up from the other stuff Purina makes. Good find!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I don't intend to feed it (I need protein 25% or lower), but I thought for those looking for a less expensive not horrible food, it might be good...better than most "store" brands.

I agree that it is a huge step up from Dog Chow!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It's not especially inexpensive. . .if someone has access to a feed store they could certainly find something better that costs less. But if someone is stuck with Wal-Mart as the only shopping option, yes, that would probably be the best food available.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

I caved and bought Purina One Beyond a couple of weeks ago. I'm not thrilled with a few of the ingredients, but I had to try something different to get Sasha to eat. We have tried many of the premium foods, and she has never eaten any of them well. She actually seems to like this food. She doesn't always eat every meal (she frequently skips meals and has since she was a puppy), but she eats this so much better than anything else we have tried. I really would like to buy something better, but she just won't eat it.


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## amynrichie (Sep 3, 2008)

I bought it for my cats once as I was out of food, and the feed store was not open. In those circumstances, I would probably get a small bag for the dogs to tide them over if I had to. It is not my first choice, and a little pricey, but all in all, the best that Walmart has to offer.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

This food is awesome! And the soy is so far down that it's not going make much of a difference. I plan on feeding this for awhile, I've never seen Hallie do so well and we've fed a constant rotation diet where she never eats the same food twice. She has a lot of energy on this food, it's not pricey unless you want to buy the small bags. It's about $22 for the 15lb bag here. I don't think that's bad at all. Hallie gives beyond 2 paws up!


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## Missie2007 (Mar 13, 2007)

Some of the "better" Wal Marts are carrying Three Dog Bakery baked kibble as well as Newman's Own. I'd feed both of THEM before Beyond. With that said, Beyond is LIGHT YEARS better than the rest of their product line and often times will be the best your Wal-Mart has to offer. Additionally, there are $2 coupons all over the place for the small bags if you're unsure your dog will consume.....


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

For Purina, it's a step up. I just can't get past soybeans in meal form as ingredient #5.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> For Purina, it's a step up. I just can't get past soybeans in meal form as ingredient #5.


Yeah, cats, especially, can have issues with soy (I would rather see corn in a cat food than soy). Purina actually has a halfway decent cat food called Purina Cat Chow Naturals that I consider to be better than Purina ONE or Beyond, but unfortunately they don't have a dog version of it.



Hallie said:


> it's not pricey unless you want to buy the small bags. It's about $22 for the 15lb bag here. I don't think that's bad at all.


LOL. . .because I can get a 35-pound bag of Chicken Soup for $32.50, I consider anything over a dollar a pound to be "not inexpensive". But I suppose that depends on where you live and all that.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Willowy said:


> LOL. . .because I can get a 35-pound bag of Chicken Soup for $32.50, I consider anything over a dollar a pound to be "not inexpensive". But I suppose that depends on where you live and all that.


I might be a bit biased, it takes Hallie 2 weeks to get through a 4lb bag:redface: so $7 for 3.5lbs seems cheap to me when it's not to people with big chow hounds.


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## Missie2007 (Mar 13, 2007)

Cat Chow Naturals first six ingredients. Yikes! Chicken meal, corn gluten meal, soybean meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), corn meal.

Beyond Cat formula: Chicken, chicken meal, whole brown rice, soybean meal, whole barley, whole oat meal.

Neither food blows my skirt up, but I'm picking Beyond if I have to choose.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Missie2007 said:


> Cat Chow Naturals first six ingredients. Yikes! Chicken meal, corn gluten meal, soybean meal, brewers rice, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), corn meal.
> 
> Beyond Cat formula: Chicken, chicken meal, whole brown rice, soybean meal, whole barley, whole oat meal.
> 
> Neither food blows my skirt up, but I'm picking Beyond if I have to choose.


Oh, huh, I didn't know Naturals had soy. . .I'll have to look at that.

I know I once figured Naturals to be better than regular Purina ONE (because the first ingredient in Naturals is Chicken meal), but you're right, I guess Beyond is better.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

In terms of it being inexpensive, in comparison to Blue ($28 for 15 pounds), Wellness ($29 for 15 pounds), TOTW and the like, it isn't too bad. I know it isn't the cheapest you can get, but, if grocery stores are your option, this may be your best bet. 

Hallie--glad it is working for you. I just think it is nice to see that big dog food companies are trying to make chanegs for the better--even if they aren't 100% there yet, they are trying. I can only hope that other companies follow.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I feed a brand called exclusive because I live about an hr from the nearest PETsMART & am not readily accessible to the usual suspects when everyone thinks of the good brands. I think the exclusive is all right, Izze seems to do well on it, pup does to but is going thru a stubborn streak when it comes to eating right now but she was eating it previously but since Izze does so well on it I dint want to change anything.


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## Amstaffbruiser (Jan 12, 2011)

I considered this food for my dog. But the chicken meal was what sent me away (I think it is ingredient 2 or 3)

I know I am preaching to the choir, but chicken meal is essentially garbage:

_If the meat is labeled as a “meal”on the side of the package (for example, “chicken meal”) a dog owner should be aware that this is not the kind of chicken that he would sit down to eat at the dinner table. Chicken meal is basically the remains of a chicken that has been parted out. The parts of the chicken that we are familiar with (the breast and the leg meat) tend to be mostly missing. What is left is a some chicken meat and skin. A lot of skin actually. The most disturbing part of a chicken meal though has to do with a significant portion of what else is thrown into the vat and cooked before it becomes the high-protein pellets known as chicken meal._


-From an article I read on the subject.


I steer away from such foods for my dog. But then again, I am kind of a purist. If you look back on how we fed our dogs just a hundred years ago, this Purina is a total godsend!


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## amynrichie (Sep 3, 2008)

@ Amstaffbruiser: I think what you are referring to is chicken "by-product." Chicken meal is more desirable than chicken because it is only the meat content with out all of the water content. By-product of any kind is not desirable for the reasons you mentioned above.


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## Amstaffbruiser (Jan 12, 2011)

amynrichie said:


> @ Amstaffbruiser: I think what you are referring to is chicken "by-product." Chicken meal is more desirable than chicken because it is only the meat content with out all of the water content. By-product of any kind is not desirable for the reasons you mentioned above.


No, I hate to disagree with you, but I am talking about *chicken meal*. Chicken meal *can contain 4D animals *(diseased, dead, dying or disabled). Chicken by-product is worse. Chicken meal is horrible stuff though... NOT FIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.

Here is the wikipedia link for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_meal

I know wikipedia isn't the most reliable of sources, but it is all I can get my hands on right now. If you still doubt me, I will dig up the FDA link for you. My computer is running all sorts of slow right now or I would enclose it right now.

_according to the Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), is the dry rendered product from a combination of clean chicken flesh and skin with or without accompanying bone, derived from whole carcasses of chicken, exclusive of feathers, heads, feet and entrails.[1] A __meal in general is "an ingredient which has been ground or otherwise reduced in particle size."[2] __Chicken meal is ground up chicken meat that has been carefully dried to a moisture level of __10%. The protein content is __65% and the fat level is __12%. Regular chicken contains about 70% water with 18% protein and 5% fat. To create chicken meal, ingredients are placed into large vats and cooked. [3] This rendering process not only separates fat and removes water to create a concentrated protein product, it also kills bacteria, viruses, parasites and other organisms. Because meat can be rid of infectious agents through the rendering process, “4D” animals (dead, dying, diseased or disabled) are allowable chicken meal ingredients. While not always present, the possible inclusion of these ingredients makes chicken meal always considered unfit for human consumption.[4]_


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Amstaffbruiser said:


> No, I hate to disagree with you, but I am talking about *chicken meal*. Chicken meal *can contain 4D animals *(diseased, dead, dying or disabled). Chicken by-product is worse. Chicken meal is horrible stuff though... NOT FIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.
> 
> Here is the wikipedia link for you:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_meal
> ...


So I guess you're feeding your dog a raw diet? Because most kibbles contain a meat meal ingredient somewhere. It is ground up chicken meat, dogs need that. Dogs don't care if its a sick chicken they'll still eat it. I have no problem with my dog eating meat from a disabled animal. Sorry but dogs ARE dogs, they're not people. This meat is cooked at temperatures high enough to removed any bacteria and pathogens. So what are you worried about exactly? Roadkill deer is just as healthy as a healthy butchered one. Humans aren't meant to eat dog food, this is why dog food is not fit for human consumption. I don't usually see a human gnawing on a 3 day old carcass for fun, rolling in poop, or eating poop. Dogs are meant to eat things considered disgusting by most human standards. Chicken meal is a good ingredient. I, in fact, look for a meat meal in any dog food. Without it the meat content of the food can be so minute you might as well be feeding vegetarian food.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Hallie said:


> So I guess you're feeding your dog a raw diet? Because most kibbles contain a meat meal ingredient somewhere. It is ground up chicken meat, dogs need that. Dogs don't care if its a sick chicken they'll still eat it. I have no problem with my dog eating meat from a disabled animal. Sorry but dogs ARE dogs, they're not people. This meat is cooked at temperatures high enough to removed any bacteria and pathogens. So what are you worried about exactly? Roadkill deer is just as healthy as a healthy butchered one. Humans aren't meant to eat dog food, this is why dog food is not fit for human consumption. I don't usually see a human gnawing on a 3 day old carcass for fun, rolling in poop, or eating poop. Dogs are meant to eat things considered disgusting by most human standards. Chicken meal is a good ingredient. I, in fact, look for a meat meal in any dog food. Without it the meat content of the food can be so minute you might as well be feeding vegetarian food.


Ditto ditto ditto....I mean, if you don't have a meat meal, what would you want to feed? Whole meats are gonna be farther down the ingredient list once you take the water content out, so you'd be feeding a food mainly with grains or potatoes if there was no meal, and obviously you don't want any sort of meat by-product meal....


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Amstaffbruiser said:


> No, I hate to disagree with you, but I am talking about *chicken meal*. Chicken meal *can contain 4D animals *(diseased, dead, dying or disabled). Chicken by-product is worse. Chicken meal is horrible stuff though... NOT FIT FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.
> 
> Here is the wikipedia link for you:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_meal
> ...


Actually they cannot contain 4-D animals any longer. I believe it was in 2009 that it changed but I could be wrong on the year. Chicken Meal is actually pretty good if you are buying a dry kibble. If it lists 'Chicken' as the first ingredient there will actually be less chicken in it, because it is listed BEFORE the water content is removed. Ingredients are based on weight when they are added. There is an EXCELLENT book out there called "Feed Your Pet Right" that covers every aspect of the pet food industry you could ever think to wonder about. I'm almost done with it and it has been a great, very eye opening book.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Agreed on the whole meal discussion. Meat meals actually have more protein than "regular" meat because of water content, etc. Now, a by-product or a by-product meal means bits and pieces of things no one should eat (in my opinion). I avoid any food that has a by-product in it because you never really know what you are getting. I actually look for meals in the ingredients. Some of the best foods available have some kind of meat meal in the first few ingredients.

For further information on meat vs. meal, here is the Dog Food Project: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=meat-meal.

If you read all the way to the bottom, you will find this quote:



> If you feed your dog mostly dry food, with nothing or very little else added - like most people do -* I recommend looking for a product that does contain one or more concentrated sources of animal protein in form of meal (either by itself, or in combination with fresh meats). *This kibble will make up almost all of your dog's food intake, and if you feed a food that only contains fresh meat, the actual proportion of meat to grains or other carbohydrate sources is very low - and thus species inappropriate for an animal that is a meat eater by nature, with a digestive tract designed to process mainly meats and fat.


And, Dog Food Advisor has great information on meals: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/about-meat-meal/

And Hallie--I am very glad this food is working out for you ! I am still pleased to see a big company doing this--maybe there is hope for the future!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Hallie said:


> So I guess you're feeding your dog a raw diet? Because most kibbles contain a meat meal ingredient somewhere. It is ground up chicken meat, dogs need that. Dogs don't care if its a sick chicken they'll still eat it. I have no problem with my dog eating meat from a disabled animal. Sorry but dogs ARE dogs, they're not people. This meat is cooked at temperatures high enough to removed any bacteria and pathogens. So what are you worried about exactly? Roadkill deer is just as healthy as a healthy butchered one. Humans aren't meant to eat dog food, this is why dog food is not fit for human consumption. I don't usually see a human gnawing on a 3 day old carcass for fun, rolling in poop, or eating poop. Dogs are meant to eat things considered disgusting by most human standards. Chicken meal is a good ingredient. I, in fact, look for a meat meal in any dog food. Without it the meat content of the food can be so minute you might as well be feeding vegetarian food.


I was wondering that, too...the "X dog food ingredient is NOT fit for human consumption" argument is (in a way) somewhat laughable. Even if dog food was good enough to be "fit" for human consumption, I doubt I'd start chomping away at it. THK is considered "human grade" ingredients, but I still haven't sat down to a meal of Force


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## Amstaffbruiser (Jan 12, 2011)

Hallie said:


> So I guess you're feeding your dog a raw diet? Because most kibbles contain a meat meal ingredient somewhere. It is ground up chicken meat, dogs need that. Dogs don't care if its a sick chicken they'll still eat it. I have no problem with my dog eating meat from a disabled animal. Sorry but dogs ARE dogs, they're not people. This meat is cooked at temperatures high enough to removed any bacteria and pathogens. So what are you worried about exactly? Roadkill deer is just as healthy as a healthy butchered one. Humans aren't meant to eat dog food, this is why dog food is not fit for human consumption. I don't usually see a human gnawing on a 3 day old carcass for fun, rolling in poop, or eating poop. Dogs are meant to eat things considered disgusting by most human standards. Chicken meal is a good ingredient. I, in fact, look for a meat meal in any dog food. Without it the meat content of the food can be so minute you might as well be feeding vegetarian food.


Again, I hate to disagree with you. No, I am not keeping my dog on a raw diet. You say it right here: _"Because most kibbles contain a meat meal ingredient somewhere."_

Actually, Hallie, there ARE dry dog foods out there in the kibble format that dodge the "meal" definition. Not many, but there are, and you have to look for them.

Lately I have been transitioning Boozy to Orijen. It hits all of the high marks, but it is pricey. Real meat, low-temp cooked kibble. It is doing the trick. I am sure you have heard of it.

Your opinion about whether your dog can eat a sick, disabled or roadkill animal is fine and I understand it. That is why there are so many other dog foods out there.

My take on meals and the other kibbles that you are referencing is that I don't want to contribute to a part of an industry that would use sick or disabled animals (even roadkill) in the foods that I purchase. As a consumer, I have that right. It just seems to me that there is an element in 4D foods (and roadkill) that puts the entire "humanitarian" aspect of how these foods are prepped into question. Sure, dogs would eat these types of foods in the wild, but what is going on at the factories that traffic in such things? I try not to think about it, because it is a slippery slope. It seems that if 4D animals are ok to be used in these foods, why wouldn't pet food companies hustle to get more of this "cut-rate" meat into their product? The bottom line is money here, and money makes for all sorts of compromises. Historically, pet food companies have been notorious for making such compromises.



Binkalette said:


> Actually they cannot contain 4-D animals any longer. I believe it was in 2009 that it changed but I could be wrong on the year. Chicken Meal is actually pretty good if you are buying a dry kibble. If it lists 'Chicken' as the first ingredient there will actually be less chicken in it, because it is listed BEFORE the water content is removed. Ingredients are based on weight when they are added. There is an EXCELLENT book out there called "Feed Your Pet Right" that covers every aspect of the pet food industry you could ever think to wonder about. I'm almost done with it and it has been a great, very eye opening book.


Wow, if this is the fact, then I can start whistling a different tune!
Can you direct me where it says that? I would love to change my philosophy on this subject if the rules have indeed changed. I mean, besides the book you are citing. Hopefully my comp is running faster today and I will be able to get onto the FDA website and poke around. This stuff fascinates me.

*edit* I actually had to call the FDA because their website is so convoluted. I guess I have to click reload on my email inbox until I get an answer from them. Seriously, if anyone can point me in a direction that say (with authority) that chicken meal no longer carried 4D animals, I would greatly appreciate this.



theyogachick said:


> For further information on meat vs. meal, here is the Dog Food Project: http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=meat-meal.


I went to the dog food advisor. This is what I found:

_Meat Meal 
AAFCO: The rendered product from mammal tissues, exclusive of any added blood, hair, hoof, horn, hide trimmings, manure, stomach and rumen contents except in such amounts as may occur unavoidably in good processing practices. 
The animal parts used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or  contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters and so on. It can also include pus, cancerous tissue, and decomposed (spoiled) tissue.

_The page with this info is this one:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients

I sure would like to know the correct answer! If meat meal isn't what it used to be, it will change a whole lot of things around my household (and save me some cash!).


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

The orginal link from dog food advisor discusses what meals to stay away from. Meat meal is a generic meal and it does make its list of bad meals. However, chicken meal, lamb meal, etc. is NOT a bad ingedient. 



> Here are a few examples of inferior meat-based protein ingredients. Be sure to notice the “generic” names…
> 
> ■Meat meal
> ■Animal meal
> ...


So, MEAT meal is bad--but only it says meat...that means it could be any combo of things. When it is a specific meal, it changes the quality.

Hope that helps!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

theyogachick said:


> The orginal link from dog food advisor discusses what meals to stay away from. Meat meal is a generic meal and it does make its list of bad meals. However, chicken meal, lamb meal, etc. is NOT a bad ingedient.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. I would stay away from a food that just had "MEAT" as the first ingredient, too. I'd rather feed a named by-product than an unknown meat source.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Lately I have been transitioning Boozy to Orijen. It hits all of the high marks, but it is pricey. Real meat, low-temp cooked kibble, and *meal-free*.


I just want to point out that I looked up Orijen's ingredients, and it contains several "meals". Just sayin'.

Adult: Fresh boneless chicken, *chicken meal*, fresh boneless salmon, *turkey meal, herring meal*, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh chicken liver, fresh boneless lake whitefish, fresh boneless walleye, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat

Regional Red: fresh deboned wild boar, fresh deboned lamb, fresh beef liver, fresh deboned pork, *lamb meal*, peas, salmon meal, russet potato, *herring meal*, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned bison, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon, *pacific whitefish meal*, fresh deboned walleye, salmon oil 

6 Fish: Fresh boneless salmon, *salmon meal, herring meal*, fresh boneless herring, fresh boneless walleye, russet potato, sweet potato, peas, salmon oil


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## Amstaffbruiser (Jan 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I just want to point out that I looked up Orijen's ingredients, and it contains several "meals". Just sayin'.


Point taken. 

I honestly don't know how "fish meal" can be escaped. Furthermore, I am amazed that this company never freezes their meats. I have been down the path of considering alternatives. So I have to consider that the fish meal in Orijen is about 8 items down, and isn't the second.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If you're talking about Regional Red, lamb meal is the 5th ingredient. The regular Adult formula has chicken meal as the second ingredient. Any ingredient listed before the fat is a major ingredient, even if it is 8 down (that just means the food has a lot of major ingredients!)


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## Amstaffbruiser (Jan 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I just want to point out that I looked up Orijen's ingredients, and it contains several "meals". Just sayin'.
> 
> Adult: Fresh boneless chicken, *chicken meal*, fresh boneless salmon, *turkey meal, herring meal*, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh chicken liver, fresh boneless lake whitefish, fresh boneless walleye, sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, chicken fat
> 
> ...


I see you have adjusted your post, so I will do the same. Correct you are on the lamb meal. My issue would be the second ingredient being a meal, as in the case of the Purina that this thread is dedicated to. Someone earlier said that meal is a part of every kibble that is out there. I quibbled. I think that there are 2, but I am going to have to check them before I bring them into here. My overall opinion is that "meals" are compromised. Hopefully, they will eventually be easily escapeable.

I am not sure about the point you have made about every ingredient listed before the fat as a major ingredient. I think that the percentages are a little different than that.

Here are the regional red ingredients.

_Fresh deboned wild boar*, fresh deboned lamb*, fresh beef liver*, fresh deboned pork*,* lamb meal*, peas, *salmon meal*, russet potato, *herring meal*, fresh whole eggs*, fresh deboned bison*, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon*, pacific whitefish meal, fresh deboned walleye*, salmon oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols), sun-cured alfalfa, pea fiber, dried organic kelp, pumpkin, chicory root, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, blueberries, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, d-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, selenium yeast, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Enterococcus faecium. 

_Furthermore, the preservatives are natural.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not saying that Orijen is a bad food. It's one of the best. And yet _they still use named meat meals_, which are NOT bad pet food ingredients. That's the point I was trying to make.


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## Amstaffbruiser (Jan 12, 2011)

Binkalette said:


> Actually they cannot contain 4-D animals any longer. I believe it was in 2009 that it changed but I could be wrong on the year. Chicken Meal is actually pretty good if you are buying a dry kibble. If it lists 'Chicken' as the first ingredient there will actually be less chicken in it, because it is listed BEFORE the water content is removed. Ingredients are based on weight when they are added. There is an EXCELLENT book out there called "Feed Your Pet Right" that covers every aspect of the pet food industry you could ever think to wonder about. I'm almost done with it and it has been a great, very eye opening book.


It took forever for the FDA to get back to me, but their response tells me that yes, indeed 4D is alive and well in dog food. Here is the response:

Three Compliance Policy Guides (CPG)1-3 and one Guidance for Industry document4 speak to the conditions and criteria for when CVM will not object to use in animal feeds of tissues from animals that have died otherwise than by slaughter, so-called 4-D animals. Taken in context, *the CPG’s and guidance document lead to the conclusion that the FDA will not object to (or take action against) feed ingredients or animal feed products that are, or contain, ingredients derived from animals that died otherwise than by slaughter, provided that the products are not otherwise in violation of the law. For feed ingredients derived from these animals, the pertinent criteria include that the animal or tissues derived there from: 1) are undecomposed; 2) do not contain toxins or chemical substances that may cause the feed product to be considered adulterated under Section 402(a)(1) or (2) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act [21 U.S.C. 342(a)(1) or (2)]; and, 3) are processed in such a manner, generally by heating during rendering, extrusion or canning, that ensures the elimination of harmful microorganisms. The FDA considers this policy to allow a means of salvaging valuable protein and fat content from materials that would otherwise be wasted while upholding the agency’s responsibility to protect the public health of both the animals directly fed the products and the general populace at large.*

1. CPG 7126.18 Canned Pet Food Section 690.300 available at http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074710.htm 
2. Uncooked Meat for Animal Food Section 690.500 available at http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074712.htm
3. CPG 7126.24 Rendered Animal Feed Ingredients Section 675.400 available at http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074717.htm
4. Center for Veterinary Medicine Guideline No. 122, Guidance for Industry: Manufacture and Labeling of Raw Meat Foods for Companion and Captive Noncompanion Carnivores and Omnivores available at http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Animal...Enforcement/GuidanceforIndustry/UCM052662.pdf 


I am at a loss.

Orijen is good stuff, and Boozy loves it, but the logic that pings in the back of my head is the following:
If a pet food company can get 4D meat for cheaper than the real thing, what is to stop them for going in that direction CONSTANTLY? A friend of mine told me that a pet food company would never admit to such a thing...but it is all about the profit. Especially with bigger companies like Iams and Purina.

I might just go completely raw. Thanks to everyone in this thread who answered and queried as I dug this stuff up. This has been a fascinating learning experience for both me and my dog!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Amstaffbruiser said:


> It took forever for the FDA to get back to me, but their response tells me that yes, indeed 4D is alive and well in dog food. Here is the response:
> 
> Three Compliance Policy Guides (CPG)1-3 and one Guidance for Industry document4 speak to the conditions and criteria for when CVM will not object to use in animal feeds of tissues from animals that have died otherwise than by slaughter, so-called 4-D animals. Taken in context, *the CPG’s and guidance document lead to the conclusion that the FDA will not object to (or take action against) feed ingredients or animal feed products that are, or contain, ingredients derived from animals that died otherwise than by slaughter, provided that the products are not otherwise in violation of the law. For feed ingredients derived from these animals, the pertinent criteria include that the animal or tissues derived there from: 1) are undecomposed; 2) do not contain toxins or chemical substances that may cause the feed product to be considered adulterated under Section 402(a)(1) or (2) of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act [21 U.S.C. 342(a)(1) or (2)]; and, 3) are processed in such a manner, generally by heating during rendering, extrusion or canning, that ensures the elimination of harmful microorganisms. The FDA considers this policy to allow a means of salvaging valuable protein and fat content from materials that would otherwise be wasted while upholding the agency’s responsibility to protect the public health of both the animals directly fed the products and the general populace at large.*
> 
> ...


I have been feeding kibble for many many yrs, including the poorer brands before I knew better. But I am looking into the best kibble that I can feed for the money. I don't have the time or the experience for raw to tell the truth.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

With Purina the issue is not only ingredients, it is where they obtain the protein sources. They are a rendering plant buyer. The grade of ingredients is questionable at best.


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## Amstaffbruiser (Jan 12, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I have been feeding kibble for many many yrs, including the poorer brands before I knew better. But I am looking into the best kibble that I can feed for the money. I don't have the time or the experience for raw to tell the truth.


I don't have the time or money either. But believe me, i am tearing aprt the Internet looking for answers. There has to be a simple, affordable, humane solution to this all.

Yvonne: I totally agree with you. Purina is definitely questionable. I say this because I work around their canned cat foods all day, and I am amazed at the blatant disregard they have for a cat's natural diet or what is good for it. I can only assume that they are "profit driven" with dogs too. That ingredients list is what got me posting in this thread in the first place!


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> I have been feeding kibble for many many yrs, including the poorer brands before I knew better. But I am looking into the best kibble that I can feed for the money.* I don't have the time or the experience for raw to tell the truth*.


Same here. I also don't think my pet would be better off eating raw instead of high quality kibble if all I can afford is the cheaper meats which were pumped full of steroids, growth-hormones and/or antibiotics, etc. My pup might eat kibble but I only buy the 5 star kibble and training treats so she honestly eats a better, healthier and more balanced diet than I do.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Fuzzy Pants said:


> Same here. I also don't think my pet would be better off eating raw instead of high quality kibble if all I can afford is the cheaper meats which were pumped full of steroids, growth-hormones and/or antibiotics, etc. My pup might eat kibble but I only buy the 5 star kibble and training treats so she honestly eats a better, healthier and more balanced diet than I do.


Same here too! I can buy several kibbles and rest assured that my dog is ingesting any GMO fed meat, steroid injected, growth hormones, or antibiotics. It's a heck of alot harder getting that at the grocery store.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Fuzzy Pants said:


> Same here. *I also don't think my pet would be better off eating raw instead of high quality kibble if all I can afford is the cheaper meats which were pumped full of steroids, growth-hormones and/or antibiotics, etc*. My pup might eat kibble but I only buy the 5 star kibble and training treats so she honestly eats a better, healthier and more balanced diet than I do.


I could NOT agree more. A poorly researched raw diet is probably the absolute WORST thing you can feed; along with the cheap bargain meats that are pumped full of who knows what.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> the cheap bargain meats that are pumped full of who knows what.


Almost all meat is raised the same way---there is an industry standard (unless you buy certified organic), the price the meat is sold for has nothing to do with it. And what kind of meat do you think dog food companies use? Unless they're using certified organic meats, what's the difference?


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## palmtree77 (Apr 5, 2011)

amynrichie said:


> I bought it for my cats once as I was out of food, and the feed store was not open. In those circumstances, I would probably get a small bag for the dogs to tide them over if I had to. It is not my first choice, and a little pricey, but all in all, the best that Walmart has to offer.


That's exactly what I did with my dogs when they ran out of their regular food.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Almost all meat is raised the same way---there is an industry standard (unless you buy certified organic), the price the meat is sold for has nothing to do with it. And what kind of meat do you think dog food companies use? Unless they're using certified organic meats, what's the difference?


I know where my meat comes from (I buy it locally). I have an issue with grocery store meat, for me and myself alone (not speaking for others).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I know where my meat comes from (I buy it locally). I have an issue with grocery store meat, for me and myself alone (not speaking for others).


Oh, OK. I get that. I was just thinking that it sounded like people were saying that the cheap chicken quarters at Wal-Mart are worse than the expensive chicken quarters at the specialty butcher shop. . .when it's all the same chicken. Probably from the same farms.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Considering the two choices: Chicken or Lamb. People used to give them dogs Lamb when there was concern about chicken allergies, etc. However, the Lamb formula listed at the top of this topic includes chicken as well as a double dip of rice.

So, my vote is for the Chicken. Now my next question will be what is the useful calorie count ? I like to feed my dog about 3 cups of food, along with his carrots.... That's within the range for most kibbles for a 60 -65 pound dog. But a performance option has a higher calorie count - resulting in a fatter dog and the senior (or weight loss) option has a lower calorie count resulting in a skinny dog - not lean, in my case. I hate to experiment on him, but he seems to love a tiny bit of variety every 6 mos or so...

Purina had a high quality (for them) Pro Performance brand Chicken and Rice that was ideal, but they stopped making it about 8 years ago, as they started working on other varieties....


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## doggies5 (Apr 21, 2011)

I purchased a 3.5 lb. bag of Purina ONE BEYOND at my local walmart and my dogs liked it. I usually have my dogs on a huigh quality dog food, but i was curious about this dog food. since its sold at the grocery store, its probably not real good. the ingredients looked better than any other formula at the supermarket. i still think they can tweek the formula a lil' bit, but it is better than the other purina brands.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Well, we needed something to tide us over until we can make it to TSC for more TOTW and got Purina One Beyond because it was the best I could find at Meijer. It actually cost a little more than TOTW, 26.99 for 15 pounds instead of 24.99, which is a shame. I'm probably not buying it again now that I see it contains menadione...soy and caramel coloring I could handle but not that crap.

I will say Sydney likes it and it's a world better than Kibbles 'n Bits, which she was sneaking a lot of when we were visiting relatives lately (they free feed). Must time my dog food purchases better in the future!


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