# Westminster Dog Show tonight



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

AAAAHHhh am I the only one psyched up to watch dogs on tv for 3 straight hours tonight and tomorrow night? Cant. Wait. Gonna Explode. 

IGHT 1: 
Monday, February 15
Hound, Toy, Non-Sporting and Herding Groups
8-9 p.m. (ET) live on USA Network
9-11 p.m. (ET) live on CNBC 

NIGHT 2: 
Tuesday, February 16
Sporting, Working and Terrier Groups, Best In Show
8-11 p.m. (ET) live on USA Network


----------



## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

I went to the pre-dog show when dogs were still qualifying back in November! I've been waiting months for this! Woohoo!


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

No cable here, unfortunately. But even if we had it, I figure I'll be fighting over the TV with the rest of the family, who will want to watch Winter Olympics figure skating.


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Equinox said:


> No cable here, unfortunately. But even if we had it, I figure I'll be fighting over the TV with the rest of the family, who will want to watch Winter Olympics figure skating.


Worse yet here. I do have cable but I will probably only get to watch the first hour if lucky. If I'm not pre-empted by Xbox 360, at 9 PM I will be outvoted for WWE wrestling!


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

its on two different channels? Or is it the same show repeated on two different channels. I'm going to try to watch it.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I love it and watch every year. I have HD channels now, so the dogs look even better. 

I have a dog-loving friend I usually discuss the show with over IM, but she's away on a cruise this year, so I'm looking forward to posting about it here as it airs!


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Yes tonights broadcast looks like it got split between 2 different channels. From 8-9 on USA then 9-11 on CNBC . Which is ODD b/c I remember watching the entire show on one channel last year. Maybe Animal Planet? Or was the Eukanuba show? Anyways tomorrows broadcast is on 1 channel. from 8-11 on USA. All time eastern. And info was pulled from the Westminster site.

For some reason my HD on the fritz. But the rest of the channels come in clear. So I get to watch on regular channel. 

We have 2 tv's in the house. Which I thought was a huge waste of $$ given that we rarely ever watch tv. But now I realize might come in handy.


----------



## Xie (Feb 5, 2009)

It was split between USA and CNBC last year as well. It's because USA won't interrupt wrestling on Monday night.

I can't wait to watch! I've been following the show results today, but tomorrow is what I'm really excited for. My girl's dad will be in the breed judging along with a bitch from the same breeder AND my trainer's dog! I'm really rooting for any one of them to get BOB. My girl's dad is #8 and my trainer's dog is #3 for the year .


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

A Powderpuff Crested won BOB today, I think that's the first time there'll be one in the televised Group competition, at least in the past few years that I can recall. That might be some nice publicity for Puffs, since so many folks don't know they even exist. =)










He's a cutie, too!


----------



## StarfishSaving (Nov 7, 2008)

Two plotts that I used to care for daily showed in their breed (2 of only 3 invites.) Capone, the BOB, was just a puppy when I worked there. I don't scoop his poop, groom him, go swimming with him or get to pet him anymore but I'm still proud of him


----------



## PandaBear (Sep 6, 2009)

Wesminster dog show is only an hour away from where I live. I beging so my parents would bring be there but they said no. Cant wait to get my licence.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It's on The Discovery Channel here in Canada and isn't split between it and any other channel. Only a few minutes now until it starts!


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

LOL.. I've had it on USA for the past hour (on mute) so I don't forget and miss it like I did the olympic opening ceremony ... HERE IT COMES!


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

No Westminster here...too bad it's cable-only.


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

my daughter and I spent the day there today. Got home just in time to watch the groups on TV!!
Watch for the Ibizen (sp) hound the teen handler Rachel competes with my daughter all the time. She is an awesome handler


----------



## cherryhill (Aug 21, 2009)

Video just posted on Westminster Kennel Club website for 2010 Australian shepherd Best of Breed competition:
here it is  http://video.usanetwork.com/features/westminster_dog_show/herding_group/v1201648


/Amanda


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

commerical!! We had so much fun today. I took some pictures ands will get them up tomorrow


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Xie said:


> It was split between USA and CNBC last year as well. It's because USA won't interrupt wrestling on Monday night.


Not that it matters but it's actually wrestling refusing to move their show...longtime fan here (stop laughing!)...they used to move their Monday night show then had it in their contract with USA that it wouldn't happen again. Carry on!


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Hahah I'm DVRing WWE For the SO and myself to watch Later tonight or Tomarrow because I'm the Boss and MY Family never misses Westminster! We've never been invited but we hope maybe someday to see one of our babies there!


----------



## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Monkey dog..don't like it


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

sorry monkey dog....i offer hug to monkey dog.


----------



## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

OMG cute Chi!!


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Deron_dog said:


> Hahah I'm DVRing WWE For the SO and myself to watch Later tonight or Tomarrow because I'm the Boss and MY Family never misses Westminster! We've never been invited but we hope maybe someday to see one of our babies there!


I confess: I have two VCR's so I don't miss anything! Do you watch TNA wrestling too? I just found out that next month, TNA is changing to Monday nights, to go head to head vs Raw!


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

We were supposed to have two DVR'S but the cable company screwed up! LMAO! But yes I watch TNA, WWE, and I buy Ring of Honor DVD's...I'm a Wrestling Nerd!


----------



## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

OMG the Toy spaniel looks like a mutant XD


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Whoa a corded Havanese. Don't see that often.


----------



## Melissa_Chloe (Dec 31, 2008)

My dog Chloe's brother will be on tv tonight, he is the chinese shar pei, everyone cheer for him! hehe


----------



## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Can't wait to see the Pap!


----------



## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Awww what a beauty!


----------



## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Is the announcer drunk? lol


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

The announcer sucks and the commentators are really annoying.. I almost want to mute it 

I agree the toy spaniels don't look so good. I was really suprised at the corded havanese (I didn't know they came in corded). I really liked the PBGV.. they're like the only hounds I actually like.. dunno why.. hounds really aren't my thing.

Here come's my fave group.


----------



## mrslloyd09 (Jul 12, 2009)

FlashTheRottwuggle said:


> Worse yet here. I do have cable but I will probably only get to watch the first hour if lucky. If I'm not pre-empted by Xbox 360, at 9 PM I will be outvoted for WWE wrestling!


ME TOO!! However, hubby didn't get home in time to watch it in HD, which plays earlier than on the regular channel, so I'm trying to Westminster now. Except DH keeps wanting updates on RAW.


----------



## mrslloyd09 (Jul 12, 2009)

pittsabowawa said:


> I agree the toy spaniels don't look so good. I was really suprised at the corded havanese (I didn't know they came in corded).


Neither did I. I thought the Puli came in a toy now.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here's the GSD BOB winner:
http://www.gretchanya.com/Meg.htm


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Aww.. love the Bichon. I prefer the all black Boston over the brindle.

I <3 EBD!! She is GORGEOUS!!!!


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Here's the GSD BOB winner:
> http://www.gretchanya.com/Meg.htm


Unimpressed.. she has a doggy face.

She also looks extreme, but it may be how she's stacked. You'd know better than me, anywho. Any thoughts?


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

BTW I was really rooting for the Bassett - that was a nice balanced Bassett.. too many of them are overdone!


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I thought the Bassett looked good too.

Loving the Frenchie.. I honestly couldn't pick my favorite out of this group.. I'm rooting for the EBD, the Dal, and the Frenchie.


----------



## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Here's the GSD BOB winner:
> http://www.gretchanya.com/Meg.htm


sorry but

ewwww what a face! omg, I dont see what that judge seen in that dog.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Unimpressed.. she has a doggy face.


I prefer that. The breed has become WAY over refined, and I want to see the substance brought back.

I will ALWAYS take a doggy bitch over a bitchy dog.

Also, do NOT let a profile shot fool you. Sometimes a dog can look very masculine from the side, and you see a frontal head shot...and they are very much not (this goes for both genders).


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

WOO Frenchie wins!!! And EBD in 3rd!

ETA:.. I see nothing wrong with the GSD.. I think she's quite pretty.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I prefer that. The breed has become WAY over refined, and I want to see the substance brought back.
> 
> I will ALWAYS take a doggy bitch over a bitchy dog.
> 
> Also, do NOT let a profile shot fool you. Sometimes a dog can look very masculine from the side, and you see a frontal head shot...and they are very much not (this goes for both genders).


Yeah, I'll see what she looks like in a couple minutes. At first glance, though, her face doesn't impress me. Not only is it doggy.. it's like.. droopy..


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Loose flews (lips) is what you're seeing...another problem in the breed currently. Strauss has that issue, but not as badly.


----------



## Melissa_Chloe (Dec 31, 2008)

Woohoo!!! Chloe's brother Ch Chaoyang Chick Magnet At Asia won group 2nd! Amazing!


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

wow what a fluffy coat on that BC. The dogs at herding trials I see have a lighter coat.

Oooohh Bouvier


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I really liked the Bouvier.. I'm liking this cardigan welsh corgi (although corgi's scare me.. my mom told me they all bite growing up x.x). The Aussie was really pretty too.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

I don't mean to offend, but the GSD just looks all wrong to me. I like the older version, the square back not the sloping back, the current gait, the hocks and everything just looks all wrong to me.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There are better than her, and there are worse.

I would have preferred Sangria, but *shrug*'

I myself do not like a square dog, as the standard (SV AND AKC) call for a rectangular dog, not a square one, and the wither should be higher than the back.

A dog with no rear is as bad as a dog with too much.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

wow I really like the Swedish Valhund (sp?) neat little dog. And cleaner looking body as opposed to the Corgi's. More workmanlike, less heavy.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I prefer the older GSD look as well. 

Nice to see the papillon come fourth, although I of course would have liked to see him make it to best in show. I'm not a poodle fan (in looks, anyway; I respect their intelligence and personality), and they win their groups way too often for my liking.  (I'm always somewhat annoyed when two of the seven dogs competing for best in show are poodles, heh.) Glad the whippet took the hound group; I was rooting for her! I'm a fan of a lot of the dogs in the herding group and would love to see the Briard, Canaan dog or Aussie shepherd take it. (That's not gonna happen. )


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Xeph said:


> There are better than her, and there are worse.
> 
> I would have preferred Sangria, but *shrug*'
> 
> ...


Yes sorry i should have said rectangular when speaking of the GSD. Meaning that the hip should be higher than it currently is in profile.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Where the hip goes has to do with the stack. Their backs don't drop at all like that when they aren't stacked.

Strauss has an apparent angle in his back when stacked as well (which is how it should be).


----------



## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

I didn't like the way the GSD moved..the back legs looked awkward.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

I missed it cuz I had to make dinner  But dinner was yummy!!

Jhazmyn did however catch parts of it. I kept seeing her stare at the TV.....LOL


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

SupaSweet777 said:


> I missed it cuz I had to make dinner  But dinner was yummy!!
> 
> Jhazmyn did however catch parts of it. I kept seeing her stare at the TV.....LOL


I missed some of it too. We were watching the Olympics, but I recorded it and would flip there every so often.

Harleigh was doing that too! One time she was just LOCKED on it. I think she found herself a boyfriend. She would not look away from the TV the whole time that Ibizan Hound was on there!! LOL. 

I'm ready for tomorrow!! I can't wait to see the Working and Sporting group.... Especially the sporting group though!!! 

I'm rooting for BISS CH Annian’s Great Explorer JH in the Vizslas. 

For the Labradors I'm rooting for either CH Salty Dog of Tampa Bay
or Ch Viking Hil'Die Tanzbarin RN JH.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm watching it right now actually. The Non Sporting group is on and OMG the bulldog was freakin adorable.


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

He was wasn't he Supasweet.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I didn't like the way the GSD moved..the back legs looked awkward.


Well, she moved correctly. She was clean coming and going. At least in the breed judging. I don't have cable so I can't watch, but from what others are telling me, Jimmy was holding her back and not letting her move out.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I just got done watching the video of the Breed judging for ACD's

I know the dog that took breed. Well actually I have not met him personally but I know the owners and have seen pictures of him. I do know and have competed with and against at least three of the others.

And I KNOW I am biased. But after watching the video, I am bummed that I did not enter Merlin. He outmoves any of the dogs that were in the ring today. He is as structurally sound or better than any dog in the ring and he could have outmoved them all. His reach and drive would have put them to shame. And I think that Judge likes movement. 


I thought of going but didn't because things were hectic at work. So I did not enter. As many of you know, I got laid off last week (messy deal) and could have easily gone. 

This goes to show you what is important in life. Don't live to work but work to live. 

I am bummed.... He has been showing like he owns the ring and just came off an AOM at a regional specialty with an entry of 41.


----------



## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm so glad that the Shih Tzu placed in the toy group!! It didn't even look like she was going to pull him out for her short list, so I had given up on the idea of him winning. So then for him to get group 3, I was thrilled!


----------



## Slick50 (Jan 19, 2010)

Current GSD's remind me of a 1960 Impala I once had. Back when it was cool to have your car jacked up iin the front and low in the back using spacers in the front coil springs...it just doesn't look right. I never saw that sloped back look years ago. I'm not sure how they do that or why they'd even want to.


----------



## losinsusan (Nov 20, 2009)

Can't wait for the sporting group tonight! Gooooooo Irish Setter!!!


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I didn't see it, was busy watching Olympics, plus we don't seem to get the channel it was on. Who won the Toy Group?


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Well just looked at the results from the Vizslas and looks like the one that I was rooting for didn't make the cut this year. The one that did win is beautiful too though 



Kuma'sMom said:


> I didn't see it, was busy watching Olympics, plus we don't seem to get the channel it was on. Who won the Toy Group?


Ch Smash JP Moon Walk, the Toy Poodle, won 1st.

2nd was the Pekingese (Ch Linn-Lee's For The Good Times), 3rd Shih Tzu (Ch Hallmark Jolei Austin Powers) and 4th Papillon (Ch Forevr Errol Flynn).


----------



## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

I was so rooting for the little wirehair dachshund. He was adorable. He didn't win though 

And while I love poodles...(Sarge is half poodle) I would like to see something else win the toy group for a change. 

I was trying to get my husband into it, he wasn't though. But I like to window shop for dogs and think about what kind of dog I would like next someday. I am thinking chinese crested, he said (after watching the dog show) a brussels griffon. Go figure.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> And while I love poodles...(Sarge is half poodle) I would like to see something else win the toy group for a change.


Same here. I'm always rooting for the Pug, of course, lol.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

pittsabowawa said:


> The announcer sucks and the commentators are really annoying.. I almost want to mute it
> 
> I agree the toy spaniels don't look so good. I was really suprised at the corded havanese (I didn't know they came in corded). I really liked the PBGV.. they're like the only hounds I actually like.. dunno why.. hounds really aren't my thing.
> 
> Here come's my fave group.


I loved the PBGV!!! He looked so happy  Couldn't stand the corded havanese, the lady commentator acts like she's never even seen a dog. The new announcer is just NOT the voice of westminster!!!!!


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

The announcer sounded like he was reading from a book, and on top of that was it just me or was he mispronouncing half the names of the breeds??


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Slick50 said:


> Current GSD's remind me of a 1960 Impala I once had. Back when it was cool to have your car jacked up iin the front and low in the back using spacers in the front coil springs...it just doesn't look right. I never saw that sloped back look years ago. I'm not sure how they do that or why they'd even want to.


I agree. I still say the stack is stupid and the dogs should stand naturally.

And I miss Roger Caras.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

wolfsnaps said:


> I was so rooting for the little wirehair dachshund. He was adorable. He didn't win though
> 
> And while I love poodles...(Sarge is half poodle) I would like to see something else win the toy group for a change.


That toy poodle, Walker, has won the group in many of the televised shows for the past 2 or 3 years, too. He's a juggernaut. =P And before him, it was another toy poodle from the same kennel.


----------



## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I loved the PBGV!!! He looked so happy  Couldn't stand the corded havanese, the lady commentator acts like she's never even seen a dog. The new announcer is just NOT the voice of westminster!!!!!


I never saw a havanese corded (or never realized what it was). All the ones I see in person are not? 

The lady narrator was annoying. She sounded stupid. I am all for gushing and what not but she was just ditzy sounding. The announcer guy sounded familiar. He does other dog shows? I think maybe he is getting old? And he IS reading.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> She sounded stupid.


She always does.

The announcer is David Frei I believe.



> I still say the stack is stupid and the dogs should stand naturally.


Look back far enough and dogs were stacking that way in the 1920's. If you want it changed, show dogs. Otherwise, don't complain about it.


----------



## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

To be honest I was a bit dissapointed in the Boston Terrier Best of Breed, My mom's dogs were always better looking them him/her I didn't manage to catch what the Sex was.


----------



## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I agree about the poodle, give another toy breed a chance! Of course it was a nice looking dog as far as poodles go. I love all the new breeds in the ring .


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

sablegsd said:


> I agree. I still say the stack is stupid and the dogs should stand naturally.
> 
> And I miss Roger Caras.


Auz hits a "natural" stack a lot on his own. Due to his lineage he would be laughed out of an AKC ring even though he's "correct" for the breed standard, just not "fashionable" enough. When he "stacks himself", he is angles rather than curves.
I didn't mind the GSD too much; I have seen much, much worse (not only AKC show dogs, but german dogs as well). The only thing I couldn't get over was a front shot of her face, she looked too "saggy". Oh well


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> she looked too "saggy"


As I said, loose flews. It's a problem right now.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I just watched the Rotties in breed. I am just shocked at how fat some of them are. I would much rather a dog look fit then fat. That is a trend I would like to see go by the wayside. Rotties are supposed to be an athletic working dog. Not gymnasts but still able to perform a function as guard or cattle dog. Most of these guys looked like it would be an effort to run from the couch to the backyard.  I hate that.

There were a few very nice looking dogs though.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Inga, what do you think of the dog who took breed?


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

woot woot Sporting Breed on now

Go Tollers

Agree that the announcer sucks He totally mis-pronounced Schipperke


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Gah! I got home late and now I'm 8 minutes behind and I still have to watch last night's from the DVR (I had no idea how much television I was missing before I had DVR), but tonight has most of my favorite breeds anyway.

LOL, there's a lot I can fast forward through so maybe I'll catch up quicker than I thought.


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

NRB said:


> woot woot Sporting Breed on now
> 
> Go Tollers


Heck yes!! Watching it right now... My favorite group!

Go Vizsla! Go Labrador! Go Brittany! Go German Shorthaired Pointer! Go English Springer Spaniel!

Yes... I'm conflicted in who I should choose LOL (Leaning with Vizsla... Even though _mine_ didn't make the cut!)


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> Inga, what do you think of the dog who took breed?


Ch Chancelor's Gorgeous Patrone

I like him but there have been dogs in the past that I have liked a whole lot more. I just think it would be nice if so many of the dogs were not so heavy. I am not talking about bone structure but just extra weight. I try to keep my dogs on the lean side to save their legs and joints. Not skinny, just not carrying so much extra. Chancellor is not as heavy as some in that ring. He at least looks like he could run someone out of the yard if needed.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Well after watching Carlee in 2005 this GSP is a bit of a downer for me. But I suppose Carlee set the bar high.

The Last Spaniel reminded me of a Boykin Spaniel (in the face) we used to have.

The cocker looks like pygmy head shrinkers got to his head. I guess b/c they have al that hair?? But got to admit I love the way the groomers groom the long hair to make it look like a floaty skirt.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Inga said:


> Ch Chancelor's Gorgeous Patrone
> 
> I like him but there have been dogs in the past that I have liked a whole lot more. I just think it would be nice if so many of the dogs were not so heavy. I am not talking about bone structure but just extra weight. I try to keep my dogs on the lean side to save their legs and joints. Not skinny, just not carrying so much extra. Chancellor is not as heavy as some in that ring. He at least looks like he could run someone out of the yard if needed.


Using fat to add the appearance of more 'bone' is something that's happening in many breeds. It can't be good for their hips, that's for sure.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Pai said:


> Using fat to add the appearance of more 'bone' is something that's happening in many breeds. It can't be good for their hips, that's for sure.


I can't understand how that works. Don't the judges get their hands on the dog? How can they not tell fat from bone? _I_ can tell fat from bone on a dog after petting him.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

I'm watching the show right now with my son and Jhazmyn (of course). 

I've loved the clumber spaniel for many many many years. Does anyone in here own one?? So far the clumber is my sons fave dog tonight. He's not a fan of any of the wire haired type at all.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm glad the Puli won the Herding group!

Don't mind me, I'm in Puli-fascination mode lately. I hope he wins Best in Show

Wally was like "what's the black mop doing on the TV?" He barked at the other dogs, but the Puli he was like: "What...is that?"


----------



## AnimalCrazy20 (Jul 15, 2009)

I like the Brittany!! Very beautiful looking dog.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

my girls group is next.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

I am soooooooooooo excited for the working group!!!!! YAYYYY!!


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

liked the boxer and the Dobe so far

No Way the Giant Schnauzers from my old home town, wow


----------



## AnimalCrazy20 (Jul 15, 2009)

I like the Dobe so far aswell


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

CJ!!!!!!! *drools*


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Love the Dobe. She was so, so gorgeous. <3

Boxer was very pretty as well.

Great Dane up now! Yes!


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Gooooo CJ!!!!! A Westminster BIS would be a wonderful way for her to retire.... CJ is simply stunning:


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

And yet what the handler in that picture is wearing is... tragic. Yikes!


----------



## AnimalCrazy20 (Jul 15, 2009)

YAY Rottie!! 
Go Rottie!


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Inga said:


> And yet what the handler in that picture is wearing is... tragic. Yikes!


Poor Carissa has been criticized for her choice of attire for the Nationals for months now... poor girl! At least the dog looks like perfection.


----------



## AnimalCrazy20 (Jul 15, 2009)

This announcer really sucks at pronouncing some of the breeds ....


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I love the Boxer!.. who won from that group? (American Idol won out for me.. no dvr at the dorms either unfortunately)


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

will know after the break

Yeah! it was the CJ

Wasn't impressed with the SS.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

I love sooooo many of the working group dogs I can't even choose 1. My son informed me I could never be a judge for a dog show because I love them all too much.

The dobe is beautiful for sure.


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I'm rooting for the boxer or the dobe.. just from the group pics on the westminster site.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

YAYYY the dobe won!!


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Go CJ!!!!


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I was disappointed to see the dress did not return


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

K so far my new fav breed that I never even knew about til this show is the Swedish Vallhund. What a cutie pie.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

YES!!!! Go dobes!


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Yay for the dobe.. what was the final line up?(1-4)


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> I was disappointed to see the dress did not return


Go Dobes but Thank God the dress stayed in the closet.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yay, excited that the doberman took it! I love them, and she is a gorgeous dog.

Terriers next! I love a lot of terriers (especially cairns and westies), so I'll be watching this one with interest.

The announcer is really annoying me. It seems that he either mispronounces a breed's name or stumbles through its description. I wonder if he even had a chance to read these breed descriptions prior to tonight; it feels like it's his first time seeing them.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Inga said:


> Go Dobes but Thank God the dress stayed in the closet.


Are you kidding? If for some undoGly reason someone ever gives me a show dog, I am going to every single show like it's prom night.


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

YES! Go CJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now she just has to beat the d*mn scottie (because you KNOW Sadie will take the terrier group... *grumble grumble*)


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Hah! The TV announcer guy (as opposed to the ring announcer guy) slipped and called them Jacks, not Parsons.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Bedlington Terrier I just do not see them as Badger hunters..... really? or is this just another announcer gaffe


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

pittsabowawa said:


> Yay for the dobe.. what was the final line up?(1-4)


Dobe, Boxer... Ah crap! I can't remember the other two. : Someone else will though, I'm sure

Sorry!!


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

PWD and Malamute were 3 and 4


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Its ok .. thanks. They finally updated the westminster site. I was really rooting for the Boxer but I'm glad she at least got second.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Man, I'd really like to watch this, but none of the channels that usually play it are.


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

You might be able to catch it online.. I'm just going by pictures on the westminster site. Going to bed now (big test tomorrow).. I can't wait to see who wins. I'm rooting for either the frenchie or the dobe for BIS!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

hulu.com baby. That's how I've been watching the groups


----------



## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

NRB said:


> Bedlington Terrier I just do not see them as Badger hunters..... really? or is this just another announcer gaffe


yes badger hunters! those are some very tough dogs. they are drivey and more so than many of the terriers, in my opinion anyway


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

ruckusluvr said:


> yes badger hunters! those are some very tough dogs. they are drivey and more so than many of the terriers, in my opinion anyway


No way those tiny thin looking roached back lamb dogs? hunt. badger?


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

So far I'm rooting for the Scotty

and she wins it


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I know the girl that used to have the #1 Bedlie in the country. She got an AOM with her bred by special this year


----------



## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

bedlingtons are one heck of a terrier. put your hands on one and you can sorta feel the substance.


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

NRB said:


> No way those tiny thin looking roached back lamb dogs? hunt. badger?


Yep. They were mainly vermin hunters for the mines, buildings, etc. (according to the breed site) but were also known to take on bigger game such as badgers.

http://bedlingtonamerica.com/history.htm


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Here we go here we go! From the dogs I saw tonight, I think I'm rooting for the Dobe, but I don't know last night's winners.

Edit: Ooops, forgot about the Britt! Sorry, Dobe, you just can't hold a candle to a little red and white gundog


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

NRB said:


> No way those tiny thin looking roached back lamb dogs? hunt. badger?


The grooming style used in the show ring is the same as the Poodle's -- very stylized and fancified. There are Bedlingtons and Bedlington lurcher crosses still used as varmint dogs today, however, most (just like Poodles) are not used for their traditional job anymore.

A 'natural' Bedlington looks like this:


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I will tell you right now..... Sadie the Scottie will win it.


----------



## IlliniJen (Jul 11, 2009)

Go go Frenchie!


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I will tell you right now..... Sadie the Scottie will win it.


Don't say that, it'll only encourage them!


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Man, what's up with this announcer tonight?


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

rooting for Sadie as well.

The announcer really is having a hard time

Ok CJ really is loely as well. I'm torn between the 2

ok never mind CJ is lovely and has such presence.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

What just happened? Did someone run into the ring?


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> What just happened? Did someone run into the ring?


eh? missed that


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

I was wondering that too - were people booing?


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

NRB said:


> eh? missed that


I saw a whole bunch of people (I presume guards) at the bottom of my screen and the judge yelled "DONT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THAT"


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I saw a whole bunch of people (I presume guards) at the bottom of my screen and the judge yelled "DONT PAY ANY ATTENTION TO THAT"


Yeha - I thought I saw someone hold up a sign at the bottom of the screen or something?


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

sizzledog said:


> Yeha - I thought I saw someone hold up a sign at the bottom of the screen or something?


I'll rewind and look when it's over


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I can check the DVR after the show.

I WANT the Brittany and the Dobe, but if I was betting on it I'd say Scottie - Poodle - Dobe - Whippet/Frenchie


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

thanks guys - i'm curious to know what that was all about.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

ok I need to ask, do handlers put the treat inside their mouth? Then feed the dog? What is it? Various stinky dog treats?


----------



## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

I want the Dobe to win, then Brittany. 

Sadie wins everything:

I was wondering about the booing thing too. That's so not cool. CJ is so stunning, why in the world????

Go CJ, Go!!


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

This is ridiculous, I'm so nervous!

Edit: Oh phooey. What a let down. I hate when the predicted winner actually does so.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sigh. That was predictable.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

The Puli lost


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I will tell you right now..... Sadie the Scottie will win it.


Told you.... I knew as soon as she took the Terrier Group she would win.


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

WELL.... that sucked monkey butt. *grumble grumble*


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> do handlers put the treat inside their mouth? Then feed the dog? What is it? Various stinky dog treats?


Many do.

I won't put liver in my mouth, but many will, and many others will stick it between their lips.

I've shoved cooked hot dogs/cheese into my cheeks and used bait that way. It's easier than sticking it in in my arm band or my pocket sometimes


----------



## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Told you.... I knew as soon as she took the Terrier Group she would win.


I knew before the show even started. And that's what makes me mad. I hope she's retired now.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Looks like the ruckus was caused over a sign which I believe said "Mutts Rule" and had a PETA logo on it. Idiots.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Someone held up a "Mutts Rule" sign. That's what the fuss was about during the end of the Doberman's run.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

NRB said:


> ok I need to ask, do handlers put the treat inside their mouth? Then feed the dog? What is it? Various stinky dog treats?


Lots of handlers put the treats in their mouth. I do. I make my own.

I boil sliced beef liver, then scrub all the scum off it, then I put it in the oven at 300 for about a half hour then turn the oven off and let it cool down. 

For me it it does a couple of things. I can blow a treat into my hand without reaching in my pocket. Secondly every time I put my hand to my mouth my dog's eyes and head will follow my hand where ever it goes.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

I was hoping CJ would win. BOO that she didn't. I will say though that the scottie is a cute little shit.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Looks like the ruckus was caused over a sign which I believe said "Mutts Rule" and had a PETA logo on it. Idiots.



Figures. Gotta push the agenda after all.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

sizzledog said:


> WELL.... that sucked monkey butt. *grumble grumble*


**pats sizzle on the head**

It'll be ok.....we'll get 'em next time!!


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sizzledog said:


> I knew before the show even started. And that's what makes me mad. I hope she's retired now.


Sadie won everything this year.... I don't know if she is retiring or not.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Figures. Gotta push the agenda after all.


Well, it LOOKS like a PETA logo. My Tivo is fuzzy. But I would bet that it is.

The Dobe should have won just on how she handled herself thru all that commotion.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> The show for purebred dogs at Madison Square Garden in New York was briefly interrupted in the final minutes by two protesters. Two women calmly walked into the center ring and held up signs saying "Breeders Kill" and "Mutts Rule." They were led away by security without incident.


http://www.daytondailynews.com/dayt...adie-the-scottie-wins-westminster-550874.html


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Well, it LOOKS like a PETA logo. My Tivo is fuzzy. But I would bet that it is.
> 
> The Dobe should have won just on how she handled herself thru all that commotion.


Sizzle was right..... And it happens in shows.....Sadie is the number one dog in the country. She has won EVERYTHING this year. 

She showed up at Westminster and every judge that looked at Sadie took the safe way out. Maybe she deserved it and probably did. The Dobe was well handled and a beautiful dog. So was the poodle. And I don't even like poodle. 

There really is no wrong answer. Maybe in breed. (but every dog at Westminster is a finished Champion.) But from Group on up, every dog has beaten fellow champions. 

Sadie was the safe bet. I am not knocking the dog. She is a great dog and well handled. He does a couple of little things that might look amaturish to some but I think are intentional to make the judge look at his dog longer.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> Two women calmly walked into the center ring and held up signs saying "Breeders Kill" and "Mutts Rule."


I love how they're such self-righteous hypocrites accusing others of being killers when they kill nearly every dog they get their hands on. Show's how much_ they_ think 'mutts rule'.

Anyway, grats to Sadie!


----------



## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Yeay sadie!!!


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> You might be able to catch it online.. I'm just going by pictures on the westminster site. Going to bed now (big test tomorrow).. I can't wait to see who wins. I'm rooting for either the frenchie or the dobe for BIS!


Except we don't have speakers for our computer, so I wouldn't be able to hear anything.  Oh well, I'm sure I'll be able to watch it next year when the Olympics aren't on.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Those PETA people should worry more about BYBs and normal families who let their unaltered dogs roam around loose. _Those_ are the problem people, not the responsible breeders! (I know I'm preaching to the choir here, heh.)

I really would have liked to see the dobe, whippet or Brittany win, but the Scottie is a lovely dog and she probably deserved it. 

I think I might try to make it to the show next year... I was excited when I learned that the public is allowed to actually meet all the dogs and talk to the breeders.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Except we don't have speakers for our computer, so I wouldn't be able to hear anything.


With the way the announcers butchered things this year, it's better you have no sound. They rarely say anything of merit anyway.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> With the way the announcers butchered things this year, it's better you have no sound. They rarely say anything of merit anyway.


I have to give him props though... He did say something to the effect "if you are not an experienced strong willled owner, this breed will bully you" in reference to the ACD's


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Xeph said:


> She always does.
> 
> The announcer is David Frei I believe.
> 
> ...


I don't want to show dogs. I will state my opinion whenever I want.

The stack is stupid. I can't count how many times I have seen someone say they can't tell this or that because of the way the dog is stacked. Nothing wrong with letting the dogs stand as they will. The dog is supposed to be judged as to the standard, not a stacking contest.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I don't want to show dogs.


Then you shouldn't complain about the way we exhibit our breed. Your opinion has a lot less merit when you aren't involved in the sport.

And as much as I know you hate it, dog shows are not just about standards...it's about giving people a *show*, and a dog that free stacks is a dog that can win. My Shepherds have all stacked like Meg does...without being taught. I have taught them to free bait just to perfect it, but they stop three point more often than they stop square.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Sadie won everything this year.... I don't know if she is retiring or not.


She probably won't retire until after Crufts which she's probably going to. At least that's what I would do if I were her owners. She stood a good chance of winning crufts last year if Charmin wasn't there. I have loads of pictures of the two of them at Crufts 2009. Both my boyfriend and I were absoultely captivated by the two of them, and we didn't even realise who they were till half way thru the terrrier group when we finaly looked up to see who their handlers were.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Those PETA people should worry more about BYBs and normal families who let their unaltered dogs roam around loose. _Those_ are the problem people, not the responsible breeders! (I know I'm preaching to the choir here, heh.)
> 
> I really would have liked to see the dobe, whippet or Brittany win, but the Scottie is a lovely dog and she probably deserved it.
> 
> I think I might try to make it to the show next year... I was excited when I learned that the public is allowed to actually meet all the dogs and talk to the breeders.


I believe Westminster is one of the last benched shows? Or maybe it's Crufts, I can never keep the two apart.


----------



## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

Aesop's breeder has shown there the past several years, but didn't go this year. 

I watched the Neopolitan Mastiff group online...I always feel they look like they're melting....


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I believe Westminster is one of the last benched shows? Or maybe it's Crufts, I can never keep the two apart.


I think the commentator said it was one of only 5 shows like this left.


----------



## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

grab; said:


> I watched the Neopolitan Mastiff group online...I always feel they look like they're melting....


BOL that's funny! My son, who's six and normally loves dogs, said, after catching a glimpse of a Neapolitan, "I don't like that dog. There's something wrong with him."

I was rooting for the Brittany, but I knew the Scottie would win. Thought the Doberman was gorgeous! To me, what the breed should look like. Athletic, lean.. The color is very nice too! The Scottie deserved to win. I liked her spunk and sense of fun.


----------



## Xie (Feb 5, 2009)

Kinda boring with the Scotty winning. I really was pulling for the Dobe, who I thought was just showing absolutely beautifully!

On another note my trainer was there with her dog, Ch. TwinPeaks Sammy the Redbull and got an AOM!


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> With the way the announcers butchered things this year, it's better you have no sound. They rarely say anything of merit anyway.


LOL!! I'll keep that in mind then.


----------



## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Too bad.. I was hoping for the Dobe. Ah well.


----------



## StarfishSaving (Nov 7, 2008)

I hate going into a show knowing what dog is going to win without even having to look. Meh. The scottie was cute, though.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Here's the PETA girl..


----------



## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

Now I almost wish I'd watched it, haha.

I'm just not a dog show person. ;_; Don't really like watching them, unless there's people and dogs I personally know.


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Then you shouldn't complain about the way we exhibit our breed. Your opinion has a lot less merit when you aren't involved in the sport.
> 
> And as much as I know you hate it, dog shows are not just about standards...it's about giving people a *show*, and a dog that free stacks is a dog that can win. My Shepherds have all stacked like Meg does...without being taught. I have taught them to free bait just to perfect it, but they stop three point more often than they stop square.


My opinion is just as valuable as yours. There are more people like me that love GSD's than there are breeding and exhibiting those ski sloped hock walkers.

Ordinary people are appalled at what "showing" has done to the breed.

People that show and breed just can't leave well enough alone. Extreme, extreme extreme is the mantra. They don't stop until the dog is a caricature of it's former self. Heck, Bulldogs can't even breathe or breed naturally anymore.
How did that "better the breed" or "adhere" to the standard?


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

sablegsd said:


> My opinion is just as valuable as yours. *There are more people like me that love GSD's than there are breeding and exhibiting those ski sloped hock walkers.*
> 
> Ordinary people are appalled at what "showing" has done to the breed.
> 
> ...


then do something about it


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Like what? I prefer GSDs with much less of a slope, too (this is one of my favorite GSDs that I've actually met -- compare her to Westminster's BoB winner Meg, who I don't like nearly as much), but I don't have the time or space to breed them. I live in the city, work a full-time job, and have a small fenced yard. That's fine for my papillon, but not so much for large, active dogs. It would be irresponsible of me to go out and get some breeding dogs just because I'd like to put more "old-style" GSDs into the world. That doesn't mean that I (and others, like sablegsd) aren't allowed to have an opinion. If everyone who's not currently involved with breeding or showing a breed just keeps his opinions to himself, how will breeders ever know what the public would like to see in a dog?


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Then you shouldn't complain about the way we exhibit our breed. Your opinion has a lot less merit when you aren't involved in the sport.
> 
> And as much as I know you hate it, dog shows are not just about standards...it's about giving people a *show*, and a dog that free stacks is a dog that can win. My Shepherds have all stacked like Meg does...without being taught. I have taught them to free bait just to perfect it, but they stop three point more often than they stop square.


How would entering a dog that would never win change anything.

Unless judges change what they choose as the winner, it would do no good whatsoever.

Most people think this is a batter example of a GSD.








Judges seem to prefer this.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I must say, it's incredible how every single show-related thread turns into a fight about German Shepherds.


----------



## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> I must say, it's incredible how every single show-related thread turns into a fight about German Shepherds.


Yeah...Probably why I generally stay out of them...People fight and fight and fight, and just don't realize that no matter what, they'll never agree, and they refuse to drop the matter.


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I believe Westminster is one of the last benched shows? Or maybe it's Crufts, I can never keep the two apart.


Philly is also a benched show. I think it is the one that is broadcast on Thanksgiving (but the show itself is two weeks earlier.)

Westminster is fun to go to, but I was there and it is so crowded in the benching area that you really can't spend time talking to the owners, heck, I could barly talk to my friends!!

I posted a link to my facebook with a bunch of pictures of Westminster in the picture section of this forum


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The AKC judges have their minds set on a certain type that they like and dogs that fit that are the only ones that win anything. T


There are plenty of moderate Am/Germ crosses that are being shown and are winning that are quite lovely 

Like this boy:
http://www.gretchanya.com/JD.htm

And if you enter enough of one type of dog, you'll win with it.



> If everyone who's not currently involved with breeding or showing a breed just keeps his opinions to himself, how will breeders ever know what the public would like to see in a dog?


The breeders already know...but it's not a large concern. Many breeders only breed when they need something for themselves. The public's preference for structure really doesn't enter into their heads. They want to stick with what wins. 

You won't see tons of the more balanced dogs out at Westminster because the breeders/owners are small time and don't have backers for their dogs, or they can't afford the "handler with a name". So they finish and sire/whelp a litter or two, and then enjoy holding down a couch in their retirement.

The IKC show is also benched too, BTW


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I like the idea of benched shows, but I can also see where it would be a hassle to exhibitors. It's gotta keep everyone more organized though!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It's gotta keep everyone more organized though!


You'd think 

It isn't particularly advisable to attend a benched show if you've only got one dog, I can tell you that much.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Really? How come? I actually have very little information on them, I've mostly constructed an image in my head out of old cartoons. Off to Google for more information.


----------



## Asia (Oct 19, 2007)

Such a good show.. There were a lot of great looking dogs there.. I found some good pics from the show here: http://msg.com/photos/westminster-2010-best-in-show/?page=0


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If you're asking about the "Don't do it with only one dog" thing, it is REQUIRED that you have your dog out and available for viewing ALL DAY. If you have two or more dogs, then at least you can rotate your crew and give the others a break.

Even the best behaved and well tempered dogs can be overwhelmed by the hundreds of people that see them for 8 hours over 2-3 days.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

TxRider said:


> How would entering a dog that would never win change anything.
> 
> Unless judges change what they choose as the winner, it would do no good whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Just pointing out the second dog is not an American line dog. I'd be surprised if an AKC judge put that up. That's a German showline. 

Anyways, I haven't read the thread just popping in.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

TxRider said:


> How would entering a dog that would never win change anything.
> 
> Unless judges change what they choose as the winner, it would do no good whatsoever.


And how are judges ever going to be able to put up something different if it's not presented to them? With dobes it's widley thought that the dog must be croped to even consider finishing, yet there are some natural eared Ch's. This is because their owners were truly passionate about thier breed and stuck with it. If they had never entered their dogs in the show then there's no way the judge could even consider puting a natural dog up.

It really is an endless circle of "I don't like how you do things so I'm not going to participate" and "If nobody offers something different then how can you expect change to happen". People aren't going to change things just because some else says they don't like what their doing.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Here's the PETA girl..


Showing once again the classless form I have come to expect from anyone involved in PETA. 

As far as I am concerned anyone Booing at a show is also as classless as they come. It is all about standard but at the end of the day when the judge has such wonderful examples of the breed standing in front of them, their opinion is the only one that counts. I hope I am never so tacky at a show.


----------



## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

Well, for what its worth, I really liked the Whippet. I don't have a Whippet but I thought that was a lovely dog. I thought the Scottie would win, but I was hoping for the Whippet or the Dobe.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Inga said:


> Showing once again the classless form I have come to expect from anyone involved in PETA.


I'm actually ticked that they had to drag mutts into their agenda, as if they are on the side of domesticated mixed breeds. They want those dogs to die out just as much as purebreds.

Supporting the worth of mix breed dogs as companions and performance partners has nothing to do with supporting the end of pure breeds, and certainly not the end of domesticated animals. Typical case of taking something many viewers can agree with (I agree! My ___ is a much better pet than any of those beyond-the-realm-of-daily-practicality-groomed dogs!) and using it to push a much more extreme agenda than people realize.



p.s. the Flatcoat winner was a 10 (10!) year old love of a dog <3


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree Shaina, it makes me mad for so many reasons. 

I just really do not like anyone using a forum like Westminster to further their own personal agenda. Especially when that goes so against what everyone in that building is about. "dog lovers"


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Shaina said:


> I'm actually ticked that they had to drag mutts into their agenda, as if they are on the side of domesticated mixed breeds. They want those dogs to die out just as much as purebreds.


Of course peta is sooo against killing shelter dogs.... oh wait.

Hypocrisy.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Just pointing out the second dog is not an American line dog. I'd be surprised if an AKC judge put that up. That's a German showline.
> 
> Anyways, I haven't read the thread just popping in.


From GSDCA grand american grand victors list...

1927 German Sieger, 4 X US Grand Victor Ch. Arko v. Sadowaberg SchH










1958 Grand Victor Ch. Yasko vom Zenntal SchH III FH










1977 Grand Victor Ch. Langenau's Watson ROM










2006 Grand Victor,2003/05 Select Excellent Ch. TRAFALGAR’s Premium Blend ROM










I think I see a trend..


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Keechak said:


> then do something about it


Like What? It's up to the judges and breeders to make things right.


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> I must say, it's incredible how every single show-related thread turns into a fight about German Shepherds.


I can fight about Bulldogs too. 
And Bull Terriers.
And Poms.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

sablegsd said:


> Like What? It's up to the judges and breeders to make things right.


So, you want change. But you don't want to do anything to enact that change. You want other people to change, because you want them to change. Sounds like a job for the tautology club.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

sablegsd said:


> I can fight about Bulldogs too.
> And Bull Terriers.
> And Poms.


I really don't like the modern show-style of Pom either, I don't know if it's just the topiary-style grooming that does it, but their faces creep me out.


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> So, you want change. But you don't want to do anything to enact that change. You want other people to change, because you want them to change. Sounds like a job for the tautology club.


Look, I'm just a person that fell in love with the breed as a kid, with a neighborhood dog that was a great example of the breed.

When I was able to get one, I did. She was a great dog, died from a botched spay job. I went to a few shows and was disgusted and appalled. These are NOT the dogs of my youth. I ended up with a *gasp* BYB to get what I wanted. 

Hubs and I are disabled, no money for breeding and showing dogs.

Why do these judges and breeders need to be led by the nose to do the right thing? Why can't they SEE what they have done wrong?


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Pai said:


> I really don't like the modern show-style of Pom either, I don't know if it's just the topiary-style grooming that does it, but their faces creep me out.


They are breeding round eyed, round faced dogs and call it the "teddy bear" look.
Poms are not supposed to have round eyes.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

sablegsd said:


> They are breeding round eyed, round faced dogs and call it the "teddy bear" look.
> Poms are not supposed to have round eyes.


Ah, so that's what it is. Yeah, they look like dolls.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Shaina said:


> I'm actually ticked that they had to drag mutts into their agenda, as if they are on the side of domesticated mixed breeds. They want those dogs to die out just as much as purebreds.


This PO'd me too, for the reasons you stands and also given the new AKC Mixed Breed program. I just feel like it puts the non-PETA mutt-owners (like myself) in kind of an awkward spot.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

If someone enters a bunch of East German workingline dogs to the right judge they can take the breed for the day, thats how change is started. Another way is to play the game for a while then become a judge and start putting up less extreme dogs. It takes a commitment to make a change. I for one am not going to cry about it until I am in a position to do something about it. I have my opinion but I wont hassle others about it until I am actually doing something about it.


----------



## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

Keechak said:


> If someone enters a bunch of East German workingline dogs to the right judge they can take the breed for the day, thats how change is started. Another way is to play the game for a while then become a judge and start putting up less extreme dogs. It takes a commitment to make a change. I for one am not going to cry about it until I am in a position to do something about it. I have my opinion but I wont hassle others about it until I am actually doing something about it.


I agree with Keechak. I don't get the point of whining and complaining if you plan on doing nothing about it. In my opinion it just makes you look childish to whine about it and do nothing.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

TxRider said:


> From GSDCA grand american grand victors list...
> 
> 1927 German Sieger, 4 X US Grand Victor Ch. Arko v. Sadowaberg SchH
> 
> ...


I'm not saying there was no change. I'm simply saying the dog you posted in the first post in no way resembles the AKC show lines.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I didn't care for the 2006 GV. I was there when he won. He's not bad...very nice mover. Very clean. I just found him to be very plain.

That said, here's the 2007 GV:
http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/wdogs/WeloveDuChienArmyOfOne.htm

Moderate dog.

I do think the breed has improved greatly overall in all lines since the 1927 dog...who is sway backed, overly long, has a nearly non existent croup, and a lack of bone to match that.

Yasko was a nice dog, but you couldn't pay me to take Arko

Ahhh Watson <3 If you go to gsdca.org and check out the latest article, Watson's owner, Dave Rinke, discusses the breed in quite a compelling and honest manner  It was a GREAT read.

There is also a great discussion going on on the pedigree database right now about how the modern show dogs ended up breeding for that extreme side gait.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I like the idea of benched shows, but I can also see where it would be a hassle to exhibitors. It's gotta keep everyone more organized though!


I kind of like the idea of benched shows. But it would be very hard with my breed.


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Yasko was a nice dog, but you couldn't pay me to take Arko


I would take Arko in a minute.

This guy is a bit more what I see as a good example though.

Not an overly deep chest, not too heavy, head not too big or blocky, and a well balanced looking dog. Looks like he could do any job.

1939 Grand Victor
Ch. Hugo of Cosalta CD











> Ahhh Watson <3 If you go to gsdca.org and check out the latest article, Watson's owner, Dave Rinke, discusses the breed in quite a compelling and honest manner  It was a GREAT read.


Yes it is, interesting that he talks about lack of new people and a struggle for the breed in the ring..



> When you go to one of our Nationals these days, if you take the dogs out of the arena, it looks like an AARP convention – and I’m one of the people! I’ll admit I’m a dinosaur of the breed, but I’m going to be in the breed until I drop dead.


I think he misses the point that so many people dislike what the dogs have become and want nothing to do with it. Maybe when the AARP folks retire things will change.

He also notes...



> As our group has aged and they do less and less themselves, they rely more and more on a cadre of professionals to do it for them: they select the dog for them, they show the dog for them, they finish it for them, they help them decide what to breed it to, they pick the puppies for them to complete the process. It’s a “womb to tomb” service. So that limits the population of people who want to participate where they just write the checks and have a good time.


And someone is supposed to break into the process and out compete that cadre of professionals to try to change things? With a dog that stands out toward a working type dog? Good luck with that.



> There is also a great discussion going on on the pedigree database right now about how the modern show dogs ended up breeding for that extreme side gait.


It would seem to me that the dogs have been bred for bigger blockier heads, bigger deeper chests, and smaller rear ends with hips lower to the ground than the shoulders are, and smaller/less muscled rear ends in general.

I would guess to bring the dogs natural stance closer to a show stance, and develop a particular gait for the show ring.

Changes the whole structure, agility and power of the dog, with the dog's center of balance moved forward over the front legs. The hips are dropping down lower then the shoulders, and getting less muscled and stout. Makes for a smooth gait in the ring though I guess... even if the dogs might drop their heads lower to balance.

It doesn't strike me as a useful change for a herding and working dog, that is if the function of strength, adaptability and agility is supposed to be preserved.

But that's just an opinion from the peanut gallery, and you know what they say about those...


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I think he misses the point that so many people dislike what the dogs have become and want nothing to do with it. Maybe when the AARP folks retire things will change.


No, he knows. He mentions cripples at the beginning of the article. But his overall point is that things cannot CHANGE until NEW people show up!



> And someone is supposed to break into the process and out compete that cadre of professionals to try to change things?


Yes! But you have to start smart. Unless you have the money to enter a million working line esque dogs all at once (and NOT the square dogs...those aren't correct either), you need to start with something American in style (it doesn't have to be overdone, but American style is pretty necessary) and go from there.

I have beaten professional handlers on more than one occasion and th ejudge didn't know me from Adam.



> It would seem to me that the dogs have been bred for bigger blockier heads, bigger deeper chests, and smaller rear ends with hips lower to the ground than the shoulders are, and smaller/less muscled rear ends in general.


Nope. And you really need to get past how the dogs are stacked and start looking at the bones themselves. Strauss, when stacked, certainly drops his rear, but he is not a crippled dog. He has angles...and he should. A dog with no turn of stifle is incorrect, even if people want it to be correct.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/forum/29380.html


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Nope. And you really need to get past how the dogs are stacked and start looking at the bones themselves.


Obviously, I don't know what I'm looking at (or rather for) in a GSD, but if the dog is stacked that way, wouldn't it be correct to presume they are trying to show the way a GSD is supposed to be in relation to his breed standard? I mean, if he was supposed to be square on the topline, then they wouldn't stack that way, correct? 

I mean, if I were showing a Coton (I know they aren't AKC eligible, but go with it) who's supposed to be square with an upcurled tail and erect head, I wouldn't have him pose so that he looks more like the sloping line of a GSD.

I have a hard time seeing what his bones look like under his coat, but, of course, I'm no GSD breeder/fancier/expert.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> wouldn't it be correct to presume they are trying to show the way a GSD is supposed to be in relation to his breed standard?


Hand stacking is about accentuating things. Unilike breeds like the Aussie or Briard, if you stack a GSD four square with the angles it is supposed to have, everything looks rather awkward and unbalanced. The dogs are often taught to lean into a stack as well, and GSDs of all lines, while they can stack four square, generally do not do so on their own. 

Dobermans rise up on their very tip toes in the rear when they show. For a GSD, that is quite uncomfortable, and so they naturally go three point on their own (the degree to which they stretch is of their own choice when not being hand stacked).


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Didn't get to watch Westminster, I may look it up online to watch a few snippets of it, though. 



sablegsd said:


> Like What? It's up to the judges and breeders to make things right.


Well, that's a bit unfair, isn't it? You claim to love one type so much, and moan and whine about the degradation of the breed, and yet you wave a hand and say "nahh, the judges and breeders started it, so they're the ones who have to set it right. We don't have to do a darn thing"? It's silly to dump the workload into the hands of those you ridicule anyway, and then expect the change you want to happen, to happen. 



sablegsd said:


> When I was able to get one, I did. She was a great dog, died from a botched spay job. I went to a few shows and was disgusted and appalled. These are NOT the dogs of my youth. I ended up with a *gasp* BYB to get what I wanted.
> 
> Hubs and I are disabled, no money for breeding and showing dogs.
> 
> Why do these judges and breeders need to be led by the nose to do the right thing? Why can't they SEE what they have done wrong?





YoSaffBridge said:


> What should they do? Like TxRider pointed out, entering a less extreme dog is not going to change anything if the dog doesn't win. The AKC judges have their minds set on a certain type that they like and dogs that fit that are the only ones that win anything. Thus, the breeders keep breeding for the extreme type because they know that's what the judges will put up. It's a vicious cycle. And the breeding circles are so insular and cliquish that anyone trying to change the status quo would be ostracized. So how are these dissenters supposed to change anything?
> 
> Regardless of whether they take action, they still have a right to express their opinions just like you do. And I am positive that you have at some point in your life complained about something which you were unable or unwilling to do anything to change.


And, as seen by the pictures and discussions posted in this thread, it wasn't always this way. The extreme angulation is, in many ways, a trend. People set the trends with the dogs they bring into the show ring, and there is absolutely no reason why the quality of the German Shepherds seen in the ring can go through another change. If the interpretation of the breed standard can go from what it was back in the 1920s to what it is now, who's to say it can't happen again, and this time for the better?

Problems are rarely solved by people sitting on their butts and complaining about this and that without an open mind and a willingness to do something about it. Saying "well, they've got all the power, and what's there to do? I give up!" isn't going to help much. And while I agree we all are entitled to our own opinion and to complain and gripe, I hope you understand that condemning others and doing nothing will not lead to anything. 

Keechak and Xeph have said it very well already. I was at a relatively large AKC show on the 23rd of January. I've posted pictures of the GSDs, and I will tell you straight off that I did not like what I saw. Out of the 30-45 German Shepherd Dogs present, of all ages, I can count on one hand the number of dogs I pesonally liked. I met up with someone else on another board I frequent, someone who had entered in their East German working line German Shepherd puppy into the shows. Why? Not to win the points. But to show people what she thinks a German Shepherd should look like. Because if the judges never see any other type of German Shepherd besides what you people all cry out against, then of course they'll never put up anything else. 

You could take a dog into the AKC show ring, and even if you'll know you'll never be placed anything but last, even if you know there's no hope of an AKC Ch., you'll be there achieving a lot more than you are complaining. You'll be defending the German Shepherd you love, you'll be showing the judges, the breeders, the spectators what you think a German Shepherd should be, and you'll be promoting your ideals. Above all, you'll be doing something. The East German working line pup at the ring didn't earn any points, but he earned attention and a few people who saw him asked about him. Some have never heard of the East German working line, and because they were at the show, now they know. They know there's something out there besides the American show lines they are so used to seeing. 

In fact, there are a handful of judges who do put up German dogs. And even more who have put up American/German show line mixes. A local breeder here in Oregon has AKC Ch. titled American/German show line German Shepherd Dogs. Dogs that are gorgeous and balanced, in my opinion, and possess working ability. 

Let's be honest. I don't care for the majority of the American show line dogs around here, either. I think they're poorly bred and lack the substance and temperament and athletic ability. But I also know that there are many reputable breeders of American show lines who's dogs I do find to be what the German Shepherd should look like. I don't give up because I didn't like what I saw at a show, or because I'm not a big time breeder or dog handler. There's lots you could do about it.

You could purchase from and support a reputable breeder who's practices are responsible and who's dogs you find to be a good example of the breed. You could attend dog shows with your own dog. Entering a dog costs no more than around $35, I'm sure (please correct me if I'm wrong). There is no need to hire a big time dog handler, and there's no need to feel like you have to have a dog you can show to an AKC Ch. Just having different types of dogs in the show ring may be enough. It's a hell of a lot better than nothing, after all! You could even just take your dog to shows and not even enter him/her, and just have the dog there for people to see. 

The person at the dog show with her DDR pup got a lot of looks, especially from the other American show line folks. But I respect her and her opinion all the more for that because she was willing to do something more than complain. And hey, maybe someone went home that day of the show, thinking "boy, I like the look and temperament of that dog. I think I'll look into those DDR/Czech working line dogs". 

Just my $0.02


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> This PO'd me too, for the reasons you stands and also given the new AKC Mixed Breed program. I just feel like it puts the non-PETA mutt-owners (like myself) in kind of an awkward spot.


That was one of my first thoughts as well...as if there wasn't enough anger about that decision already. Honestly, though, I personally haven't gotten much flack despite being in or frequently in the company of various performance (multiple venues) and conformation circles...I think mostly because I made no apologies for having wonderful mutts, and also no apologies for having a wonderful purebred from a reputable breeder. 



Laurelin said:


> Of course peta is sooo against killing shelter dogs.... oh wait.
> 
> Hypocrisy.


Hm just a teensy bit, eh?  Wonder what they would think of red paint being tossed on them...


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Ahhh Equinox, you're a genius.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Hand stacking is about accentuating things. Unilike breeds like the Aussie or Briard, if you stack a GSD four square with the angles it is supposed to have, everything looks rather awkward and unbalanced. The dogs are often taught to lean into a stack as well, and GSDs of all lines, while they can stack four square, generally do not do so on their own.
> 
> Dobermans rise up on their very tip toes in the rear when they show. For a GSD, that is quite uncomfortable, and so they naturally go three point on their own (the degree to which they stretch is of their own choice when not being hand stacked).



It certainly makes them easy to spot  Gives them a very unique looking line. I don't think I've seen any other breed with a similar topline.

I think it's fascinating that when left to their own choice, they'll take that sort of stance. Very cool.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I don't think I've seen any other breed with a similar topline.


I can think of many.

Dobermans, the English, Irish, and Gordon Setter, the GSP...people always assume that extreme angles are a "German Shepherd" thing, and they are very much not 

The difference is that the above have sloping toplines when standing four square, and the GSD does not.


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks Xeph - what a thing to hear coming from you. You and Erin said it best, still. I sort of just rambled  One day I am going to figure out the meaning of being "concise". 

By the way, did you mention that you watched the show on Hulu? I can't seem to find it on Youtube. Hate not having cable!


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Equinox said:


> Didn't get to watch Westminster, I may look it up online to watch a few snippets of it, though.


Here are the german shepherds...

http://video.westminsterkennelclub.org/player/?id=1201773


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yup! I caught group on Hulu! I will admit, I only looked to see how Meg moved. I wish Jimmy would have let her out more, but his knees won't allow for it.


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Thanks for the link TxRider!

Xeph - I won't be able to watch the entire thing online, and wouldn't have been able to on TV even if we did have cable. My family does not see the fun in watching 3 hours of a dog show, believe it or not! 

I mostly watch to learn about breeds I've never heard of and, why not admit it, figure out how the heck to pronounce the foreign and fancy breed names! Though from what I'm hearing on this thread, listening to the commentators wouldn't have helped my pronounciation much, would it? 

And boy, Jimmy Moses has been showing GSDs for a good while. Any idea how old he is right now?


----------



## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Just for others, the Westminster site has a lot of video of all the breed judging and such here...

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/2010/video/breed/index.html


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Jimmy is in his 60's


----------



## !dogbreeds (Feb 5, 2010)

that seems to be a nice show, i missed it though


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I wish Jimmy would have let her out more, but his knees won't allow for it.


Then should he really still be in there if he can't show the dog to the best of her potential?


----------



## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

This really did turn into a thread about GSD's.  I think CJ's handler's dress is gorgeous, but sleeveless is not a good look for her.


----------



## suzieque (Oct 29, 2009)

I thought the Irish Terrier was gorgeous, but CJ was beautiful.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Then should he really still be in there if he can't show the dog to the best of her potential?


Jimmy can still present a dog beautifully, but aside from the national and the big televised shows (Euk and Westminster) he sticks to all breeds.

And besides...he's Jimmy Moses.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> And besides...he's Jimmy Moses.


That's what I mean though. I'm not doubting his dog or his ability - he must be quite good and the dogs he shows must have something good about them, since he's done it for so long - but the judge is supposed to go by what's presented in the ring and how the dog is showing.. not "Jimmy Moses is handling so it's OK if she doesn't move out all the way, I'll still put up that dog because it's Jimmy Moses." Of course, I might have it all wrong, but that's my first impression of the whole thing.

I like dog shows (as you know many people blab about how they hate what goes on at conformation shows, I'm not one of them), but I do admit that the _extreme_ cases of pro-handler advantage do get to me a little. I don't hate pro-handlers, I just dislike when someone can make that much of an impact. If that makes sense.

ETA I love discussing these things BTW. This is one of the reasons I wish we had a Show/Performance subforum here. There is so much about conf that I don't know that I think I could learn if the dang admins gave us a place to talk!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> but the judge is supposed to go by what's presented in the ring and how the dog is showing


Of course they are. But many times they don't. They go with politics. For a lot of reasons. The person is a friend, or they owe someone a favor, or they're a new judge and don't know what to pick, so they pick a "name" because they cannot possibly be wrong if they choose the big name handler. They're saving face.

And the dog moving OUT isn't what matters. The dog moving WELL does, and many GSDs can still move very VERY well when kept to the side. The key is just finding that right speed.

As Dave Rinke said in his article, many of the dogs that are let way out run "Hell bent for leather", and you see egg beaters...but the dog looks flashy.

If anybody is interested, I can start a new thread as I found the near entirety of a GSD specialty on you tube xD


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Of course they are. But many times they don't. They go with politics. For a lot of reasons. The person is a friend, or they owe someone a favor, or they're a new judge and don't know what to pick, so they pick a "name" because they cannot possibly be wrong if they choose the big name handler. They're saving face.


Yep, I know this, and that's basically my whole issue.

I said "moving out" because I assumed that, based on what you said about Meg not being allowed to move all the way, that her gait could have been shown better. I wasn't really talking about the GSD's gait over all; I'll admit that I really don't know the intricacies of the GSD's correct gait (or any breed for that matter).

I'd love it if you started a new thread. The Youtube links are going to have to be just that, links, though... no more embedding for some reason


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'm ok with not embedding...it annoyed me, lol.


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

AnimalCrazy20 said:


> This announcer really sucks at pronouncing some of the breeds ....


No kidding...I understand saying Petite Bassett Griffon Vendeen in french is hard but vendeen is easy to say. He said "settler" for one of the setters, then corrected himself and there was another one but I can't remember which one. IMO, they need someone who can say all the breeds correctly, not too much to ask


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Part and parcel of being disabled is a low fixed income.
I can never try to change the horrible things I see in the ring myself.
But I sure can talk about it if I want.


----------



## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

sablegsd said:


> Part and parcel of being disabled is a low fixed income.
> I can never try to change the horrible things I see in the ring myself.
> But I sure can talk about it if I want.


And you have every right too Your gripe is justifiable compared to some other gripes running rampant on this forum.


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Jimmy can still present a dog beautifully, but aside from the national and the big televised shows (Euk and Westminster) he sticks to all breeds.
> 
> And besides...he's Jimmy Moses.


So what? He's part of the problem.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Whatever...


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I know nothing about showing dogs or standards or.. well, anything. But I do know how fruitless it is to be angry about something and do nothing to change it. Any time I encounter something that infuriates me as much as some people seem to be over shows, I get involved. Yeah, I'm one person. But when one person gets loud you can better believe others will join.


----------

