# Dog trying to dominate cats... help?



## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

We have a 4 month old German Shepherd pup, Bex, and in most respects he is an angel. Loves people, very calm even if other dogs bark at him in public, house broken almost entirely, does basic commands like a pro, overall a great puppy. Except with my two cats. We've had him since late February and instead of getting used to each other things are getting worse between them.

He chases them around, smacks at them with his paws, and this morning grabbed one of them in his mouth and flipped it over and held it there. Looks to me like he's being dominant, not aggressive, but thats still not ok. He should not ever grab my cats in his mouth. If they go under the table or jump up high he just barks at them nonstop. We've tried putting him in the submissive position holding the cat over him, we've tried scolding him, tried having him sit quietly near them and rewarding him for being quiet, everything. But the minute we turn our backs he's at it again. Will he grow out of this? Is there something else we can try?


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I imagine the situation would be getting worse. It sounds like the pup just wants to play using his prey drive (stalk, chase, etc.), and he's getting all sorts of mixed signals from nearby humans about doing so. He's confused and frustrated and doesn't know what to do. 

Firstly, PLEASE do not put your pup into another submissive down EVER and/or dangle the cat around him for punishment. The pup isn't going to think he's down or being told off because he chased the cat or bit the cat or whatever, but he's likely going to associate being taken down or told off with you and the cat or whatever else is nearby and that is only going to make matters worse as you're now finding. 

This situation calls for more exercise for the puppy (including play that allows him to use his prey drive) and careful management of the puppy and cat. Start implementing the Nothing In Life Is Free routine immediately. Continue rewarding the pup for ignoring the cat and interacting politely. You can interrupt the pup with an "AH AH" when he starts to focus on or play with the cat and redirect to something that's even more fun (tug, fetch, a flirt pole, etc.). If you cannot watch the two together for whatever reason, one of them will need to be put up someplace with something constructive to do. It will take time, but eventually you should be able to trust them together IF your dogs need for training and exercise (including play) are still being met.


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

As for exercise he gets at least one walk a day for 40 minutes, two walks on hyper days, in addition to attempts at fetch and running around the field behind the house. He can be wiped out lying on his side and he'll wake right up for a cat walking by, so I'm not sure more exercise is the biggest issue... Its probably more of a structure and discipline thing. He also nips at me sometimes, we're working on it. I'll read over the NILIF, I haven't seen it before. I've never owned a dog before, I'm going by what a friend who trains therapy dogs has told me. My boyfriend knows what he's doing, but when he's at work I have to learn how to handle the dog on my own. 

As for prey drive... he really has very little of that. He doesn't like to fetch or chase things (other than people or dogs... he loves to play tag) for more than a few reps, even if he gets a treat every time he brings it back. He has more of a food drive than anything else. The only toy he can focus on for more than a few minutes is rawhide. And when I leave the house the cats go in one room, he goes in another, I wouldn't leave them alone together.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

First of all, you have come asking advice, am I right? If you dog is chasing live things such as people and cats and other dogs he is developing prey drive. This is NORMAL puppy behavior. Some dogs are not motivated to exhibit prey drive learning with inanimate objects such as toys or balls. It took me a while to teach Atka, a GSD, to retrieve. 

The problem is that if you allow it to continue, it will continue to escalate and he will hurt one of the cats, then a kid etc. 

Play has to have a beginning and an end. Play is ended by you ceasing to play, and ignoring the dog (when he is playing with you). YOU need to end the play before the dog is ready (they usually show they are getting a little tired and that is when you quit). 

If you do not have the puppy on a clicker go and do that. www.clickertraining.com

Back to the cats:
So, you have tried yelling at him. Not working. You have tried having him sit. Not working. Fact is, this is a prime example of why aversives in this situation do NOT work. Just like a kid (and we all were kids once), the behavior is good while you (the parent) are present. The minute you are not present, the puppy (kid) goes and does what he wants. Ever do that as a kid? What? Never??? 

So, first thing you have to do for the safety of the cats is to prevent the puppy from being loose with the cats. Period. This means a crate or a tether and, at this point, physically preventing the puppy from chasing, barking at, or harassing the cats. If he starts this behavior when on a tether, remove him from the area. Physically prevent him from doing this behavior by putting a barrier between him and the cats (like a door.. put him in another room if you need to and do not let him out until he settles down anddoes what you ask). 

The next thing you need to figure out is what you want this puppy to do INSTEAD of harassing the cats. What replacement behavior do you want this dog to exhibit when the cats are around? You want him to lay down? Sit? come over to you? Well, that is the behavior you need to reinforce.. and you start by not allowing the puppy access to the cats unless you are there and he is on a tether. 

Then, you watch him. When he goes for the cats say nothing. He is tethered so he can't get to the cats. The INSTANT he looks at you, turns his head away from the cats.. takes any small amount of focus OFF the cats, click and reward. 

Eventually, he will be looking at you more than the cats and looking for that reward. When he consistantly looks at the cats and then looks at you for a reward, add a command. With Atka it is "leave cat" and so she does.. but she loves her cats and has never tried to harass or harm them (but then I never let her so she doesn't know she can). 

This is going to take a LOT of persistance on your part. He is a puppy and so he will be peristant. Now the trick is for you to be more tenacious about it than he is. You need time and patience and, whenever you cannot be right there to watch the puppy AND the cats, separate them physically. This way the incorrect behavior is not self reinforcing when your back is turned. 

The bottom line is to never allow the dog to fail by chasing/harassing the cats. Ever. Set the dog up to always succeed at NOT chasing the cats and to succeed at doing an alternative behavior. 

You will find, as you train your puppy that a lot of undesirable behavior is preventing it in the first place. If you can only allow the dog to succeed at desirable behaviors you won't end up with behavior you later need to extinguish.


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

So by tether, could I have him on a flexi leash for example? How long of a lead should I give him during this supervised time? At night he is crated so thats not a problem, and during the day the longest he is alone is four hours, so I can lock the cats up for that time (they have one room with their food and litter that is just theirs, when I'm home and the dog is loose its baby-gated off so he stays out). I have all day off tomorrow so I'll start this. What do I do if, for example, he is lying quietly by me and the cat comes right up to him, as they sometimes do? Would I then try to get his attention by saying his name or something so he looks at me? He gets fixated very quickly so if that happens a tap on the back or something to get his attention?

Edit: Also, when I give him treats he tends to lunge for them and grab my fingers, any advice on how to make him take them more gently? Thanks, I need all the help I can get.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The tether should be as long as it can be but still allow you to control the dog and not get tangled up. I would tie the dog to my belt if need be. 

The thing you want is for the cats to be able to come up to the dog and for the dog NOT to react. Do they come up to him in his crate? That is a good way to start. 

Another thing you will need to do is to tach him to look at you and focus on you w/o the cats or distractions (the reason for the clicker). When he looks at your face, you click and reward gradually increasing the time he is looking at your face. 

If he is laying there and the cat comes up to him and he gets reactive, move him back. get his attention. when he focuses on you, reward him. 

You will see how it works. The trick is to prevent the problem from occurring and coming up with ideas and ways to do that. You will need to do some original thinking here. If one thing doesn't work, analyze it and figure out a different thing to do. 

Humans are vocal creatures and dogs are not. We tend to repeat ourselves by yelling the same thing over and over. It is how we communicate. Dogs don't get tht at all, so we need to be more original.. and I am not going to tell you it is easy!

My cats go up to Atka and she lets them w/o pestering them. She does love her cats! The cats slept with my last dog (Kazi) and kazi was bigger (but also a GSD).


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

They do go up to his crate and sometimes he makes that little breathy "wuff" noise at them but when he's in his crate he knows its quiet time so he doesn't flip out. I'll try him on the flexi leash today, its the longest thing I have (his leash is only about four feet). I'll probably use the word "enough", because then I can apply it in other situations, for example if we're out back doing his business and he sees something through the trees (person, dog, deer, whatever) he'll run towards it and bark, so theoretically I could use the same command to get his attention then right, when I see him starting to perk up in that direction?

Edit: Ok, so he just chewed right through the flexi leash  I couldn't get him to leave it alone, I tried poking him, offering treats, talking to him, but he really wanted to go after them so he just stared and chewed on it until it snapped. I guess I should get one of those multi-strand tree tie outs or something? Also he's still biting me when I give him treats, when I snap the lead on, he's always chewing on me now that he's frustrated. What do I do?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

When my dog got grabby, I would take the treat away and turn my back on her and ignore her. Eventually (and it took patience on my part), she would sit and look at me waiting for me to turn towards her. Of course the situation was controlled and the dog was not able able to leave (enclosed area w/o cats or on a leash or both). 

Your dog has learned it is OK to focus on the cats and so now you have to break that cycle. What are you using for treats? something like little pieces of hot dog work well for Atka but so does string cheese and other things.. NOT biscuits (as dogs don't look highly on biscuits). I can get 50 treats from a hot dog.. quarter it lengthwise and then do cross cuts. 

Have you signed up for obedience school? I suggest you do this. The object of school is to help you train your dog in distracting situations and to help socialize your dog and get him used to other dogs and "things" going on. It is worth a HUGE amount to do this. 

Focus is an issue I have problems with at dog school with my dog. You are having this issue at home, so you need to fix that w/o cats or distractions present. 

With cats you still have to prevent the dog from doing what he wants (getting at the cats).  This "fun" behavior has become established so now you have a job on your hands to extinguish it. This may require you to put the dog on a very short lead and intervening by putting yourself between him and cat he is after. He may look at you briefly at which point, the instant he looks at you, you click and reward. 

If he bites, you have to let him know that the GAME is OVER. Stand up straight and totally ignore him. If he jumps and keeps it up, put him in another room and shut the door. GAME OVER. Biting in puppies is common but that is a behavior you will want to extinguish too. 

Is he on a clicker? I am assuming he is.. and if he is that click will mean something to him. If not, I again suggest you do this.


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

He's not on a clicker yet, he is signed up for obedience school though, tomorrow he starts intermediate level lessons (he already does sit, down, and roll over for spoken or hand commands even in a busy pet store, so they recommended he go straight to intermediate). For treats I am using little soft lamb flavored treats, they are small (specifically labeled as training rewards). And for the biting, what do I do when its time to take him out and he tries to chew on me while I'm trying to put the leash on? I have tried waiting for him to sit still before putting it on, but if he doesn't quit biting and it takes too long he runs off and goes on the carpet. Is there a quicker way to correct that for leashing up?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Best to have him in his crate and teach him to sit and then WAIT when you open the door. "Wait" is nto stay. Stay means you are coming back and the dog stays until you come back or he dies of old age. "Wait" means "stay where you are, as you are, another command or action is coming.. just CHILL a minute." 

While he is in "wait" snap the leash on but do not release him from wait until you stand up straight and are ready to have him come out. If he tries to come ou, shut the door (leash and all) and turn you back until he settles down again. There is a good book called "Crate Games" that I recommend for things like this. 

For any time you need to leash him and he is not in the crate, I would crate him first and make him "wait." If he does not settle down and let you put the leash on, shut the crate door and walk away. Come back in a minute and try again. He will soon get the idea that biting (chewing on your hands) means he won't get out of the crate and the game is over.

If there are times when you have to leash him and he is out of the crate you can take the leash and make a noose on the end of it and slip it over his head. Now you have control. Take a second leash and snap it to his collar and loosen the first one and take it off. This is a last resort.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Ugh, a four month old pup isn't trying to 'dominate' anything!!! Here are some excercises you can use to teach some manners to your pup.


http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/4915-rev-up-cool-down.html

http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html

http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/18662-targeting-aka-touch.html


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

With rewards for staying near me he's been hanging around me more than the cat. We also worked on his recall a little the past two days and it has gotten better as well. We'll try the waiting thing. As for the NILIF, I read over it and its basically a lot of what we've been doing. He has to sit and stay on the other side of the kitchen while we put his food down, he has to sit for opening doors, before I throw balls, all that. 




cshellenberger said:


> Ugh, a four month old pup isn't trying to 'dominate' anything!!! Here are some excercises you can use to teach some manners to your pup.


Please don't post in such a disdainful manner, I'm calling it like I see it. When one animal flips another over and pins it that is generally domination, I've never owned a puppy before so I'm sorry if I'm not an expert in your personal opinion, but its not helpful to "Ugh" at me. I'm here asking for help so clearly I'm not a lost cause, so I'd appreciate your patience as I learn. Thank you.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Sounds like yoa re on the right track. Did you check the links CS offered? They are good links!

Be careful of the whole dominance theory thing with dogs. Likely you puppy is playing with the cat like he would another puppy. Rolling each other over is play fighting and not really dominating the other animal. 

When cats play the one of the bottom is actually the one in position to win the fight because that is the cat who can use all four sets of claws AND her mouth. Cats also tend to roll over for just that reason. I have watched Atka (and Kazi b4 Atka) play with the ccats and they will roll over on a dime to be able to engage those back feet. 

The business of 'dominance' has been so misused in describing animal behavior that some behaviorists try to avoid the word altogether. It is frequently used by some TV dog trainers and then the public will often get the wrong idea. 

Have you read the book "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson? or "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell? They are really good reads and I recommend them both. 

I am glad you are making headway with your puppy. At four months this is excellent. Usually at about a year old, dogs tend to go thru this "teenageer" thing where they seem to forget command and all the rest.. but with a good foundation it is just something to work through.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Bextastic said:


> Please don't post in such a disdainful manner, I'm calling it like I see it. When one animal flips another over and pins it that is generally domination, I've never owned a puppy before so I'm sorry if I'm not an expert in your personal opinion, but its not helpful to "Ugh" at me. I'm here asking for help so clearly I'm not a lost cause, so I'd appreciate your patience as I learn. Thank you.


 
Sorry, I see people who use the "Dominance" thing the wrong way all the time. Most people who use the terminology have it backwards and are referring to outdated research still slung about by trainers such as Milan and Keogh. I get VERY exasperated with the term. 

Your pup is playing with your cat as it would another pup, it's not trying to assert itself over anything at that age, though it MAY turn into PREY DRIVE later.


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## Chico'sMom (Apr 10, 2008)

Hello-I actually had somewhat of the same problem, with my GSD and my kitty. Chico was so fasinated with the cat, he would never leave it alone, always smelling and chasing him. It took a lot of time but, now for the most part he doesn't pester the cat. I just had to stay on top of him when they were in the same rooms. Anytime Chico was chasing the cat, Skeezix, I would get his attention and say in the "punishment voice", NO! He eventually got the message, that chasing and terrorizing Skeezix is not allowed. But the funny thing is now, they get along, and sometimes Skeezix will chase Chico, all in play. Especially when Chico is outside, Skeezix will run up to him, startle him, and try to get Chico to chase him. It is a real hoot to see that happen, except when I am trying to work on Chicos training. Good Luck, it takes time and paitence. Oh yeah, when you are trying to feed him treats and he is biting your fingers, you could try to feed like you are feeding a horse, if you have ever done that. Hold your hand flat, with the treat in your palm, so your fingers arent near his teeth.


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

To CS, I do understand people use it wrong a lot, I was just describing the behavior as it seemed to me. I did look over the links you gave me, and the doggy zen has been very helpful with getting him to not bite me when he takes treats. Thanks for that. =)

And with the cats, we've worked on the rewarding him for coming my way and looking at me, and he caught on super fast (food is his absolute strongest drive). Now if he goes near the cat and barks I can clap my hands to get his attention and say "enough" and make him come to me. Before he would just bark and bark and his ears were turned off completely, I'd have to grab him to get him to stop. Then if he sits, lies down, and looks at me for a good five seconds he gets a little training treat. Then I play some fetch to get the energy burned and he settles down for the next 15 minutes or so. Now sometimes if he goes for the cat and I clap he instantly grabs his ball and brings it to me. Hopefully soon he'll look at the cat and his mind will go straight to "Hmm.... fetch gets me more praise... and exercise..." =P Do puppy minds work like that?

We also just got a Gentle Leader to help with walks (he's a puller, especially on the way home) and he caught on to that within about 5 minutes too. Its pretty great, we can walk with a slack leash now. I hated using the chain, it hurt my arm, it annoyed him, and it made people think he was scary looking (GSD with a chain apparently makes parents move their kids aside when we walk by... which is sad because he loves people and is very gentle with kids). It would seem he's much smarter than he wants me to think...


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

GOOD JOB! sounds like you have it figured out (or a feal goodstart). It is something to stay ahead of a GSD.. I have my second one now. Yes, they can REALLY think. 

Take him with you as much as you can.. in the caqr and around people. Honestly, I don't think this breed of dog is naturally either bit-ey or nasty.. but they can be big and they have a reputation from movies and TV etc. 

This is a HERDING breed and I have never owned a tough one. I think it is because I socialize them and take them places (she even went to two weight watchers meetings and then some one who doesn't like animals complained, so she can't come anymore). When people clapped she thought they were clapping for her... 

I hope to get her into therapy dog program and I have been teaching her some service dog stuff (mostly to see if I can). We are doing agility flat work. We do some sheep herding. I have been working on her focus and I am seeing improvement. 

These dogs like a JOB to do and they want to WORK. So, my job is to keep her busy and to come up with jobs for her. It is a challenge but a lot of fun.


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

He gets lots of socializing, thats part of why we're signed up for group lessons at petsmart. Lots of dogs in and around the class all the time. We also walk him on the UConn campus near the house (even in class buildings, no one seems to mind us being in the halls) and invite people to pet him as much as we can. He also loves to play with the neighborhood dogs on the field behind the house. I've been thinking of training him to respond to my epilepsy (not detect it, since you can't "train" that ability) but maybe if I feel a seizure coming on and I say a command word he could fetch my emergency meds, get someone if they're in the house, something like that. We've also been told that herding classes are fun and will keep him happy, and there are lots of herding places within half hour drives of us. We're going to look into that once he finishes his obedience classes. I'd like our teamwork to be solid before he gets let loose on poor unsuspecting sheep...


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I just got a book recommended to me in another thread by Curbside Prophet. I recommend you get it as well. Because of the titel, I never would have purchased it assuming it was too basic. It is not and it is REALLY good:

"The Complete Idiot's Guide to *Positive Dog Training* by Pamela Dennison (Penguin). It is comprehensive, covers all that you need to know to get going in the right direction and tells you why the stuff we all do (over and over) that doesn't work _doesn't work!_

You should be able to train your dog to help you with your epilepsy. You might also be able to teach your dog what to do when HE senses a seizure coming on. I have read of this but have no current information. If I find out anything on this I will PM you if you have PM's turned on! 

The world of 'service dogs' (or service animals) is seemingly limitless from what I have been reading.. from dogs that can detect cancer to seizures to a lot of things in between. If your dog can be trained to be a service dog, he will likely be allowed to go everywhere with you in that capacity, much like a guide dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

That is an AWESOME book, I've reccomended it to everyone I've met with a pup and have even given it as a gift to several friends. My daughter has been using it to work with Angel.


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