# Teaching a puppy not to bite the sheep



## tzarlazar (Oct 29, 2013)

I have a almost 3 months old maremma puppy. I got it primarily as a livestock guardian dog (coyote problems in the area), although I am planning on doing plenty of socialization with people and other dogs as soon as I get his second vaccination (which I should do soon). I got few sheep in the barn with him where he stays before I even took him from the breeder, as the breeder suggested so he can bond with them.
After I let him in with the sheep he plays rough with them, bites them by the fur, tail and sometimes even tries to bite their ears and face. Few older sheep are head butting him, but not too rough so he is not learning any lesson from them, he just thinks they want to play more. Most of the sheep are very scared by the dog, which makes him chase them around. I tried to step in and give him a chew toy and try to correct him biting the sheep (because he is biting everything atm, teething I assume) but next time I let him in he does the same thing.
I don't leave him unsupervised with the sheep, and he sleeps in the barn with the animals and can see them, but cant get to them. 

Is there any technique or procedure I can do to help him learn not to chase and bite sheep? I am new with livestock guardian dogs, so will appreciate any help from someone that went through similar situation.

Also I have a few rabbits as well, but he doesn't seem to be interested in chasing them (which is good). He just sniffs them and they run and he moves on to doing something else.


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

This is interesting to me. I may start another thread so we can get a wider view on this subject (see my thread)-- all I can say is , it gets worse. Your pup will get stronger and rougher and I was heartbroken to find my 6month old pyr/ anatolian pup with a freshly killed chicken. They dont have the same prey drive as, say a terrier.... but its there, and they can still inadvertantly chase/play the livestock to death...
Give him LOTS more time he is 12 weeks old. A Lgd (I am told ) needs til age 2 or 3 til they can really be trust worthy. THey are giant breeds and are still growing and maturing til then....


----------



## tzarlazar (Oct 29, 2013)

Well the fact that he is not chasing rabbits is good since they are smaller, faster and will induce more pray drive (I think). A lot of people who keep lgd will have other dogs that teach younger ones so there is that too. I have a small acreage and no older dog to teach him so I am trying to figure out what can I do while he is still young. I am getting 20-30 chickens this weekend too so I will see how that goes with him.
He is not getting enough exercise at the moment because I am just finishing my final exams and don't have plenty of spare time but after I will try to run with him and use up some of that extra energy (he is a very hyper puppy) and try to work with him and sheep like that and see how it goes. 

Did you managed to reduce any of the rough play with your puppy while he was growing or was he a stubborn one like mine is right now?


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

My pup has a very low prey drive Bernese Mt dog to wrestle with (the Berner is very very gentle with all things except Strangers, its odd but he is a good watch dog in that respect) and a bossy giant schnauzer about half time (she has alot of prey drive and has been cured of chicken killing but she will often encourage puppy to chase unless I intervene or seperate them)... We have had a flock of free range chickens for the last 18 months and puppy lived peacefully amongst them since we brought him home at 8 weeks.... Its a combination of the severe weather we have been having (chickens are not as spunky or quick to react) and puppy being bigger now-- he is stronger and beginning to show his adolescence..... I am quick to correct and it requires constant supervision or tie outs of the 2 offending dogs (schnauzer hasnt killed anything in a year, although it could have been her I guess that killed that chicken not puppy, he came running from the direction of the dead hen that was alive 10 mins before though, the schnauzer was in the vicinity.
We have 5 new goat and the dogs are still transitioning to them. Schnauzer spends alot of time tied up and reprimanded. Puppy had been chasing the males (wether and new buckling with that tantalizing smell) and cornering them and licking them... I had been find them with saliva all over them...
This though could be "investigatory behavior" on part of pup, as an LGDs process of bonding with them....
But since the death of the chicken I have been somewhat alarmed and shutting all sort of contact down between puppy and livestock.
He has plenty of rough play with the adult dogs-- he is 75 lbs (weighed him yesterday) and the adult dogs are 124lbs and 80lbs and they spend plenty of time romping about on our 2 acres....
He is not energetic in the way the Schnauzer was as a teen. Often, he just naps... I feel like he has a great Off switch actually....
My plan is to show him rough play is for the other dogs, not the chickens or goats or cats (we have 3)....


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Also its not exactly that he is stubborn, he is actually very submissive to his people and gentle, its just that he does not have the same focus on people that the other 2 dogs do. He is not as attuned to me, and does his own thing. its a kind of stubborn, but not out of meanness or wanting to test me...


----------



## tzarlazar (Oct 29, 2013)

I am not of that luck to have dogs to play with him, and I still didn't introduce him to the cats because they were house cats for all of their life and I just recently moved to an acreage. So there is a lot of stress on the cats, plus I don't want the cats out yet (because of coyotes) nor I want to encourage puppy to go near the house, because the driveway in front of the house doesn't have a gate to the road.

How do you correct your dog if you see him chasing chickens, is it only verbal correction or something else?


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

I say No and also say NO when he goes into that I am getting ready to chase crouch, also then give him a command to complete that call him to you in a happy voice like you are gonna play here Oscar here Oscar Good Boy and then give him a treat(I just put some dry cat food in my pocket, the dogs love those), so dont focus on the negative too much keep him happy on you -- but let him know that there is No positive when he is naughty with the chickens.
Also at 3 months he was in puppy class. Important even for the LGDs they need to have some socialization and puppy class starts him on the road to understanding commands and that is your role to give him commands (even in an all positive reinforcement class, which is what we were in) plus it socializes him and gives him an outlet... When your on your holiday break from classes, enroll him in class, and you will need a gate for your driveway, you just will need one...
Also remember I am alittle harsher with him b/c he is 6.5 months old when he was your pups age it was all positives with very gentle redirection-- at 3months old he is needing to settle into your place and that you are his protector and friend....


----------



## tzarlazar (Oct 29, 2013)

The breeder I got him from told me to use an "alpha roll", to roll him on his back or side and hold him till he relaxes. As I am doing some research I see that many people dislike this method and can potentially cause behavioural harm to the puppy. Breeder has over 20 dogs and has a goat farm. She owns and breeds dogs for a long time and she has experience, but her dogs are not very socialized because she has no use for it. Her dogs live basically in the field with the goats and she is in a very rural and non populated area, she has no close neighbours and has like 150 acres of land. But all the dogs respond to her and are very nice with me when she is with us. 
When I got the puppy he was very food protective, and would snap at me when I tried to pet him while he was eating. I corrected that with treats and hand feeding so he is no longer food protective towards me. Sometimes he growls a bit if I don't let him know that I am the one that is petting him (he goes all in on his food bowl and eats everything in like 30 sec.)

Issue with the obedience classes is that I live in Canada, but I am from Europe so I am teaching my dog with commands from my native language. So can't really enrol him in a class with other dogs where all get commands on English but he is not. And personal training classes would be the same as I am teaching him right now, there wouldn't be any dogs he can learn with which is basically the main point for taking him. I am teaching him almost every day little bit. He knows sit and come, and is responding to his name. I am in the process of teaching him lay down, and it is going good. 

I will try positive reinforcement after correction, because he is very very very food motivated. He eats everything I give him, and he is on raw food diet, I make it myself.


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

That is great that you are doing research!!! 
Here is my favorite website on LGDs that talks about (and criticiques that Old-school style of LGDs)-- its where I would get my next LGD pup from--

she is a very thoughtful lady and has some amazing insight:

http://www.lgdnevada.com/For_Novice_LGD_Owners.html

We got our puppy not quite on purpose and he is sort of a (much loved) trial run for LGDs for us. Have always had dogs and loved them, they are our Pets with Benefits....We only have the 2 acres but livestock and there are plenty of predators (my neighbor who shares a fenceline with me has a bear that dug up his apple trees) here-- I have seen fox, raccons, skunk as well and there must be coyote(have not seen those, although we see a pair regularly in the city where I work parttime, I walk the schnauzer there)....as well as packs of loose roaming dogs (didnt know we had them til our dogs ran them off)..
That said, many of the LGD thinking seems archaic to me and borders on negligence and also leave you as the owner at risk of a fair amount of liability. 
The article says it best, but I do think LGDs need to be able to be handled and have a comfort level around people, and can do so and be great livestock guards...

PS I do think you can take a class, just repeat the commands in your language, very doable. Puppy class is usu a very supportive and fun relaxed environment. It is focused on you and your puppy starting off on the right foot together - you will be partners for Life!!!!


----------



## tzarlazar (Oct 29, 2013)

Hmm I give some thought to the classes, contact few places and such. Animal shelter where I used to work provided those so I will check with them. I just don't want to confuse the puppy since he is doing fine with me right now, apart from him trying to bite everything he can put in his mouth. 

Thanks for the info


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sorry I meant to post the puppy training link: here it is--

http://www.lgdnevada.com/Puppy__Training_.html


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

with my LGDs I do not put them in with baby animals that would run rather than protect themselves. I choose gentle adults who will not run and only will correct a naughty puppy. I also keep them in smaller pens so that they can not get to running and playing that much. I will provide a place for the puppy to go to escape the adult goat or sheep. Like a crate with a smaller opening. As pups I did not take them many places. This was more for vaccine reasons than anything else. Once vaccinated I took them more places. I do not take them all that much because you must remember they have a job to do. If the dog is away with you it is not being a LGD. My LGDs are outside 24/7, 365 because again they have a job to do. I have people that come over and my dogs welcome them without any social problems. They are also house trained because and just in case, they might have to spend sometimes inside for whatever reasons. Again I do not make this a habit because most wildlife parties happen at night. For the chickens that I had and now plan on getting ducks, I like using this fence. http://www.premier1supplies.com/poultry/species.php Keeps the chickens contained and the dogs respect the fence. I have come home to find my 2 LGD and 1 herder dogs surrounding the miniature horse pasture on 3 sides. This is something they do naturally. More adult thing than as a puppy. The older the dogs got the more they would just lie with the minis even when the horses were out in the field. 

For you I would put your pup in a smaller enclosure with the older sheep maybe just 2 sheep and provide a place for your pup to get away from the sheep. For such a young pup he is getting overly excited by the amount of sheep he is with.


----------



## tzarlazar (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks for the info, that will be rather tough because I do not really have a lot of room to work with right now. In spring I will expand the barn and etc but now is too cold for that. I will eventually free up the stall where I placed the chickens I just got today, but that will be in couple weeks or so, when I build a pen for chickens so I guess I will try that.
Only 2-3 sheep are defending themselves from my puppy and today he got hit head on with the sheep which he did not enjoy at all. I immediately took him out, and next time I let him in he was very cautious around that particular sheep, which I think is a small success if he learned anything from that . I let him in and as soon as he starts nibbling on the ankles of sheep I say No and call him out, did that few times not sure will it help.
As I just got 30+ chickens today I let out one of them and he seemed to enjoy chasing them very much, as opposed to rabbits, even though the breeder had chickens close by where he was raised. I corrected him with a NO, and than called him to myself and rewarded from coming to me. I did that few times and it seemed to help a bit but I bet if I put him in with the chickens he will go crazy on them. Chickens are in quite a bit stress from the move so I figured that I should reduce interactions until they relax a bit too. 

Off the topic, as I was leaving the barn I accidentally stepped on his foot and he yelped. I turned back around to pet him (and apologize of course) because I didn't want the night to end on a bad note. Than he laid on his back and let me touch his belly. I tried to make him turn on his back by himself by rubbing his belly before but he didn't seem to appreciate it. Was this just a defence mechanism and I frighten him, or did he went submissive on me because we spent last 10 minutes before that teaching him to lay down and he got plenty of treats?


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Yes dogs tend to naturally roll over and show you their belly for rubs when they trust you.... Also, it feels good!

One thing I forgot to mention that I found really helpful from that puppy link was that she made a point of saying the pup should patrol (in sections he can handle, he has little puppy legs) the perimeter and also give him free time to be loose on your property. He will guard all of your property. Also this gives him the opportunity to get excercise so he is not all pent up and more likely to take this energy out on the sheep.... Since you do not have a gate , maybe get a roll of agricultural wire fencing maybe 4 ft high and roll this out over your driveway so you can let pup out for supervised free time....
Also with the chickens I dont think most people leave the LGDs in a coop or small chicken yard with them. For example mine are free range and the dogs' duty is to ignore them (which, mostly they do, except for the recent infractions by puppy) let them forage, and do their job by warding off predators (they do this sort of naturally as they are territorial and defend their land against all comers)....


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Just want to clarify that I did not leave my LGD dogs or any of my dogs in the chicken yard. I did the free range chicken for a year and realized that the chickens would destroy any flower beds or freshly planted garden. It was easier to contain the chickens to one spot than it was to fence in the multiple gardens.


----------



## tzarlazar (Oct 29, 2013)

Well unfortunately things took a bad turn for me. One of the smaller chickens managed to squeeze through somewhere and when I came into the barn to feed the puppy there was a dead chicken and half of it gone... I still decided to feed him so he doesn't think eating a chicken can be a substitute for lunch and he ate it like he didnt just finished half of the chicken. And than he puked because he ate too much and he ate the puke... I might take him to the vet to check his appetite, I know he is a puppy but this seems a bit excessive imo. I think his diet should be sufficient for him, he is 3 months and 16.5 kgs (36.4 lbs), and he seems rather fit, gets plenty of meat and being fed 3 times a day, should I maybe increase it to 4 times a day in smaller portions?


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Just want to clarify that I did not leave my LGD dogs or any of my dogs in the chicken yard. I did the free range chicken for a year and realized that the chickens would destroy any flower beds or freshly planted garden. It was easier to contain the chickens to one spot than it was to fence in the multiple gardens.


Actually not being handy this is what we are facing with our goats. We have free range Goats!!!! and yeah they ate all our fall garden beds down to dirt, and now (when its not snowy) take naps on them. (they made short work of the chicken wire)... so we are working on training our pup and problem dog (schnauzer) to ignore free range Goats! Almost done with the goat pen but its in the back part of the property that is always shaded and pretty darn cold in the winter- it has a foot of snow thats already melted off everywhere else....

As to the food issue.... I usu feed to the condition of the dog-- too skinny feed more, fat (unlikely given a growing pup) cut back alittle....
Not sure if you really need to feed 4x a day, I think pup just wasnt used to bolting down an intact chicken, and thats why he vomited. 
All my dogs will scarf down puke, its their doggie instinct...

And I expect to lose a chicken or a few in the first year or so, while training a dog.... great if it doesnt happen (one of my dogs, who had never seen livestock in his life has yet to kill anything, just great big doober of a dog)...


----------



## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

tzarlazar said:


> Issue with the obedience classes is that I live in Canada, but I am from Europe so I am teaching my dog with commands from my native language. So can't really enrol him in a class with other dogs where all get commands on English but he is not. And personal training classes would be the same as I am teaching him right now, there wouldn't be any dogs he can learn with which is basically the main point for taking him. I am teaching him almost every day little bit. He knows sit and come, and is responding to his name. I am in the process of teaching him lay down, and it is going good.


I don't understand what that would be an issue at all? Handlers are free to use whatever cues they want for their dogs in an obedience class, as long as they use them consistently. Any trainer who feels you "must" use a certain language or only certain cues doesn't understand how dogs learn. Honestly, I've yet to run into a trainer who doesn't understand that, though. I have dogs in my class who make eye contact on the cue "watch" "focus" "look at me." etc, depending on what works for the handler. It doesn't matter as long as the dog knows what it means and the handler uses it correctly.  I'd just explain up front to the trainer that you're using a different language.


----------



## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

We raised two Anatolian Shepherds as LGDs for our Alpaca farm so I understand the frusturation. What we found helped is a farmer around the area allowed us to borrow one of his dogs and we put him in the field with the two of them for 3 months, and it made a huge difference as she taught the two pups what was expected of them. Granted they were introduced to their animals at 6 months, but maybe you can ask around and see if anyone near you has a dog to help you with your pup. It made a pretty big difference, and I know in upstate new york where our farm is, it tends to be common practice!


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Actually not being handy this is what we are facing with our goats. We have free range Goats!!!! and yeah they ate all our fall garden beds down to dirt, and now (when its not snowy) take naps on them. (they made short work of the chicken wire)... so we are working on training our pup and problem dog (schnauzer) to ignore free range Goats! Almost done with the goat pen but its in the back part of the property that is always shaded and pretty darn cold in the winter- it has a foot of snow thats already melted off everywhere else...












Saw this calendar and instantly thought this might be your goats.


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Saw this calendar and instantly thought this might be your goats.


Hahahah... Half of them are minis! They prefer the garage and napping on the dryer (its driving my DH nuts... although that new airblower works wonders for the goatie pebbles....


----------

