# Validity of ignoring jumping dogs



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

One of the most common training methods to discourage jumping is to turn your back to the dog. All reward trainers and websites tell you this. So, has anybody actually had success teaching their dog to not jump using this method?

In my experience this method has been essentially useless. Even with a back turned the dog will still jump; it seems that jumping is a self rewarding behavior for most dogs. It seems most dogs just don't get the message, and if they do, it's a pretty weak message. Also, the timing is all jacked up because most people take too long to turn around. I use a different reward based method that gets the point across more clearly.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

If all you did is turn your back, that's likely why it didn't work. The key is to ignore herbs dog until the INSTANT all four feet are on the floor THEN reward the dog with what he wanted in the first place, your attention. Didn't take Kuma long at all to figure out that the best way to get what he wanted was to keep all four on the floor.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

qingcong said:


> One of the most common training methods to discourage jumping is to turn your back to the dog. All reward trainers and websites tell you this. So, has anybody actually had success teaching their dog to not jump using this method?
> 
> In my experience this method has been essentially useless. Even with a back turned the dog will still jump; it seems that jumping is a self rewarding behavior for most dogs. It seems most dogs just don't get the message, and if they do, it's a pretty weak message. Also, the timing is all jacked up because most people take too long to turn around. I use a different reward based method that gets the point across more clearly.


yup. I've seen dogs "get it" in three repetitions. Frequently. It's important for this exercise that the dog is on leash, so when the person exits the dog's space, the dog can't follow. And of course attention and treat when the dog sits or has four on the floor is the second part of it.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> yup. I've seen dogs "get it" in three repetitions. Frequently. It's important for this exercise that the dog is on leash, so when the person exits the dog's space, the dog can't follow. And of course a click and treat when the dog sits or has four on the floor is the second part of it.



This isn't the method I'm talking about. I'm talking about simply turning your back to the dog, not walking away. I discovered on my own, no thanks to the internet and Victoria Stilwell and my books, that walking away works much better.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

And yet, as I said, and you seem to have ignored, making like a tree and ignoring the dog until all four are on the floor works beautifully, IF you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> And yet, as I said, and you seem to have ignored, making like a tree and ignoring the dog until all four are on the floor works beautifully, IF you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping.


Yep, as Kuma'sMom said the key is to reward them with the attention they really want as soon as all four paws are on the floor/the dog sits. Worked pretty quickly with my guy for me to simply ignore him when I walked in, usually after work so I'd just keep walking into the house and sorting through the mail. As soon as he stopped jumping on me I'd acknowledge him with a verbal greeting, continue into the kitchen to toss the junk mail then go sit on the couch and give him a big happy greeting with lots of attention. This taught him he gets NO attention for jumping on me and to wait calmly until I'M ready to fuss all over him. Almost 2 years after bringing him home he might hop around really excitedly when I get home waiting for me to sit down and greet him but he's NOT jumping on me. If I recall correctly within about 2 weeks of starting this he was getting pretty good about it, within 2 months he was 95% on it. This was also really important with him because he came to me VERY mouthy so his jumping was accompanied with not so gentle mouthing. The mouthing was probably the hardest behavior to get under control with him, jumping was easy.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> And yet, as I said, and you seem to have ignored, making like a tree and ignoring the dog until all four are on the floor works beautifully, IF you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping.



Didn't ignore what you said, just didn't understand the "key is to ignore herbs dog" line and so I didn't respond. That said, if you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping, aren't you creating a behavior chain? Jump - jump - jump - sit - reward. I'm not arguing with the results you or dagwall have had, I trust your success.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

qingcong said:


> if you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping, aren't you creating a behavior chain? Jump - jump - jump - sit - reward. I'm not arguing with the results you or dagwall have had, I trust your success.


I guess it really depends on the dog but I'm inclined to believe behavior chains are more likely to happen with food rewards than attention. Depends on what motivates the dog the most but I haven't heard of that happening. Doesn't mean it can't, just never heard of it.


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## chubby (Aug 18, 2011)

Why don't you just ask your dog to sit? Can't do two things at the same time


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## bonesygirl (Mar 2, 2012)

It worked for my puppy. We're still having a bit of trouble with my mother, because everytime Bones jumps up she wants to toss her a treat. But she doesn't jump on me or my dad anymore.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

qingcong said:


> Didn't ignore what you said, just didn't understand the "key is to ignore herbs dog" line and so I didn't respond. That said, if you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping, aren't you creating a behavior chain? Jump - jump - jump - sit - reward. I'm not arguing with the results you or dagwall have had, I trust your success.


But, you could say you are creating a behavior chain with many situations with that logic, right? I mean, if you are trading up, don't you run the risk that the dog (if smart enough) will decide to start taking things just to get the better treat when asked to trade? And, if the dog is on the couch (let's say you are trying to teach them NOT to be) and you say "off" and they get the treat for getting off the couch, isn't there the chance they will get back up on the couch in order to be told "off" and get the treat again? 

There are many situations where the reward COULD create a chain, however, I think there are ways to prevent that, such as, breaking the chain by distracting them with numerous commands AFTER they are rewarded, to prevent them from going right back to the unwanted behavior. So, for jumping, when you reward for "four on the floor," you could go right into a couple other commands, like "sit" (treat), "down" (treat), "stay" (treat), then maybe a quick game of tug or what have you, so that going right back to jumping is the farthest thing from his mind.


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## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

It worked well for one of my dogs, didn't work so well for the other. I guess just like with everything, it depends on the dog. The one it worked on is very sensitive to us, so when we ignored him and showed him we were disappointed, it really bothered him. The one it didn't work well with is much more independent.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> And yet, as I said, and you seem to have ignored, making like a tree and ignoring the dog until all four are on the floor works beautifully, IF you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping.


Ignoring can extinguish a behavior, but it takes patience. I prefer the on-leash, walk away briefly version of this exercise. I think it is clearer to the dog. I HAVE seen a few dogs create a behavior chain of jump up, sit pretty and wait for treat. The first thing they have to do to get the treat is jump up.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dagwall said:


> I guess it really depends on the dog but I'm inclined to believe behavior chains are more likely to happen with food rewards than attention. Depends on what motivates the dog the most but I haven't heard of that happening. Doesn't mean it can't, just never heard of it.


That's because food is more valuable and the dog is trying to figure out what will get paid. Sometimes by poor timing, poor training strategy, people end up creating behavior chains they didn't mean to create. But in general a dog who can chain behaviors is a better learner than one who can't. I LOVE behavior chains and use them all the time.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

I do this all the time at work. I think it works.

I ignore the dogs(s) until they have four on the florr and then praise/pet. I also teach my dogs up and off so they do have time that they can jump but they have to "ask permission". All of this is done without food rewards.

I would make them sit instead of ignoring them but some dogs don't even know sit(yeah, seriously) and some get freaked out as if it's a poisoned cue. 

of course my daycare dogs still get way to excited when I show up but all but one of them now resist temptation to jump on me. The one that still jumps... Well that's my fault because I spoil her.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

qingcong said:


> One of the most common training methods to discourage jumping is to turn your back to the dog. All reward trainers and websites tell you this. So, has anybody actually had success teaching their dog to not jump using this method?


Worked wonders for Wally. 

He wants to jump up, I back up and turn away. He was like WTF? And started whimpering a little. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw him sitting and then turned around and patted my legs for him to jump up. 

I kept doing this (and eventually he stopped whimpering) and it became a habit. Now, his tail is wagging like it's about to fall off and he's looking hard at me, but those paws stay on the floor and/or he sits and hopes for the chance.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Ignoring can extinguish a behavior, but it takes patience. I prefer the on-leash, walk away briefly version of this exercise. I think it is clearer to the dog. I HAVE seen a few dogs create a behavior chain of jump up, sit pretty and wait for treat. The first thing they have to do to get the treat is jump up.


Well, I never used treats for this. Kuma jumped because he wanted my attention, so I used attention as a reward. No pats or even talking to him until all he stopped jumping, and then he got rewarded with attention, no treats involved.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

qingcong said:


> Didn't ignore what you said, just didn't understand the "key is to ignore herbs dog" line and so I didn't respond. That said, if you reward the dog the instant it stops jumping, aren't you creating a behavior chain? Jump - jump - jump - sit - reward.


No because if jumping WITHOUT the signal to do so causes me to withdraw my attention, why would he do it again? It's like any other negative punishment. 

If it's:

Sit/Keep Paws on Ground -> Get Jump up Signal -> Attention from person
Jump without signal -> Person turns away and ignores me

And I apply this consistently until it's a conditioned pattern - he isn't going to jump then sit because jumping up first gets him nothing. So his first action on seeing me is going to be to keep his paws on the floor and/or sit.

It's like with shaping really. If he makes 10 mistakes before getting the first step right, the next time we do this, he's not going to do 10 things before step 1. He's going to do the first rewarded thing he remembers, step 1. 

If chaining worked like you describe, I would have no idea how shaping could work at all since every chain would have all the mistakes in it as well.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> No because if jumping WITHOUT the signal to do so causes me to withdraw my attention, why would he do it again? It's like any other negative punishment.
> 
> If it's:
> 
> ...


THIS!! Thank you KBLover!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> It's like with shaping really. If he makes 10 mistakes before getting the first step right, the next time we do this, he's not going to do 10 things before step 1. He's going to do the first rewarded thing he remembers, step 1.
> 
> If chaining worked like you describe, I would have no idea how shaping could work at all since every chain would have all the mistakes in it as well.


As I stated before, when one creates unwanted behavior chains, it's usually because they are working with poor timing/poor strategy. Chaining isn't *supposed* to work that way. But sloppy training can make the dog think we want chains that we don't. And it does happen fairly frequently. You have to factor the anticedent in there. What's the first thing the dog has to do to get wanted attention/treats? I suspect you haven't run into this because A) you haven't worked with a lot of dogs/people and B) because you really do think about training strategies and analyse your steps. Many people aren't that naturally fastidious.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> As I stated before, when one creates unwanted behavior chains, it's usually because they are working with poor timing/poor strategy. Chaining isn't *supposed* to work that way. But sloppy training can make the dog think we want chains that we don't. And it does happen fairly frequently. You have to factor the anticedent in there. What's the first thing the dog has to do to get wanted attention/treats? I suspect you haven't run into this because A) you haven't worked with a lot of dogs/people and B) because you really do think about training strategies and analyse your steps. Many people aren't that naturally fastidious.


True, but that's not an issue with the method, but with the trainer's faulty application of it.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> True, but that's not an issue with the method, but with the trainer's faulty application of it.


exactly....!


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

chubby said:


> Why don't you just ask your dog to sit? Can't do two things at the same time


Because most dogs when they are excited beyond belief can't sit on cue. They have to be taught to sit first. Also, they can sit and then still get up and jump on you later. I think it's more valuable to let the dog figure out for himself that jumping gets bad results than to simply command the dog the entire time.






KBLover said:


> Worked wonders for Wally.
> 
> He wants to jump up, I back up and turn away. He was like WTF? And started whimpering a little. Out of the corner of my eye, I saw him sitting and then turned around and patted my legs for him to jump up.


When I was still learning about training (still am really), I discovered the going away method by trial and error. The most common methods, at least from what we read on the internet, were to either ignore or to turn your back. I never read anything about going away. For a while we did the ignore/turn back method and instructed guests to do the same, and it didn't work AT ALL. Problems encountered were 

1) dog was too fast and agile, making it near impossible to actually have our backs facing him
2) dog was out of his mind and anything to jump on was rewarding, even if it was our backs
3) impossible to execute the timing well, because we are so slow compared to the dog

One day I tried a different approach - gasping and running out of the door the moment he left his feet. I came back in and he was sitting there all confused, tried jumping again, and again I ran out. Progress went exponentially faster using this method. At the time we wondered if we were sending him the message that he was dominant over us because he could scare us away... well we know better now. I suspect a lot of people who have had success with the turning your back method because the logistics of their dog made the method possible - their dogs were not as fast, agile, and out of their minds.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

qingcong said:


> I think it's more valuable to let the dog figure out for himself that jumping gets bad results than to simply command the dog the entire time.


Completely agree.





qingcong said:


> I suspect a lot of people who have had success with the turning your back method because the logistics of their dog made the method possible - their dogs were not as fast, agile, and out of their minds.


Wally is fast and if he wanted to, he probably could have just run around me. Or jumped on the back of my legs. 

But he didn't and I don't think that has anything to do with his speed or agility. He's no greyhound, but he's not a pekingese either! Plus - we're talking about, what, 2 feet? Not exactly requiring a ton of agility to cover that ground. 

So what made him not decide to run around or just jump on the back of my legs?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

> Wally is fast and if he wanted to, he probably could have just run around me. Or jumped on the back of my legs.
> 
> But he didn't and I don't think that has anything to do with his speed or agility. He's no greyhound, but he's not a pekingese either! Plus - we're talking about, what, 2 feet? Not exactly requiring a ton of agility to cover that ground.
> 
> So what made him not decide to run around or just jump on the back of my legs?



I think because you mentioned you also backed away. That was the key step we did not do, because for a long time we were trained to "never back away from a dog, it will tell him he's dominant".


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Well, I never backed away, or reacted to Kuma at all. Stuck my nose in the air and ignored him no matter how much he jumped. Sooner or later, he would stop, even if only briefly, and THAT was when I immediately crouched down and gave him what he wanted, my undivided attention. Honestly, it sounds like your issue was your lack of timing, not the method.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

qingcong said:


> I think because you mentioned you also backed away. That was the key step we did not do, because for a long time we were trained to "never back away from a dog, it will tell him he's dominant".


Nope - I just turned around in place. Literally just crossed my arms and turned my back. Didn't walk/move away.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Well this is interesting, cause what you guys did, I tried a few times as well. I must have failed using the original method because of a few possible reasons -

1) I didn't immediately reward when he stopped jumping. I didn't want to do this either, because we were trying to teach him that people are no big deal, so we typically ignored for 15 min or so when we came home.
2) My dog found jumping self rewarding
3) Didn't give the method enough repetitions

It seems like my dog has presented me with more training challenges than the average dog since common step by step methods never really worked for me. Because he was such a tough teacher, I think he taught me to be a better trainer. He forced me to figure stuff out for myself.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> ... The key is to ignore herbs dog until the INSTANT all four feet are on the floor THEN reward the dog with what he wanted in the first place, your attention. ...


I've trained jumping out of MANY dogs and puppies and this is the method I use. If the dog starts jumping I turn around, cross my arms, stay silent, stare straight at a fixed point a little ahead and above me, and completely ignore the dog. As soon as the jumping stops I get reward the pup - I'm excited, I'm happy, and I"m praising the dog like no tomorrow. This method has worked on every dog and has taken no more than a week (and it's only taken this long for dogs who have had years of being allowed to jump).


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## nbsandhills (Nov 24, 2011)

PatchworkRobot said:


> I've trained jumping out of MANY dogs and puppies and this is the method I use. If the dog starts jumping I turn around, cross my arms, stay silent, stare straight at a fixed point a little ahead and above me, and completely ignore the dog. As soon as the jumping stops I get reward the pup - I'm excited, I'm happy, and I"m praising the dog like no tomorrow. This method has worked on every dog and has taken no more than a week (and it's only taken this long for dogs who have had years of being allowed to jump).


Agree. Worked great with all my boys in a very short amount of time.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

qingcong said:


> One of the most common training methods to discourage jumping is to turn your back to the dog. All reward trainers and websites tell you this. So, has anybody actually had success teaching their dog to not jump using this method?
> 
> In my experience this method has been essentially useless. Even with a back turned the dog will still jump; it seems that jumping is a self rewarding behavior for most dogs. It seems most dogs just don't get the message, and if they do, it's a pretty weak message. Also, the timing is all jacked up because most people take too long to turn around. I use a different reward based method that gets the point across more clearly.


I think it's the same as with any other form of punishment -- use the least amount to achieve the desired behaviour. Start small and work your way up if neccessary. So, I would probably start with removal of direct eye contact. Admittedly, this probably won't get the results when applied to very excited dogs, but with some it just may. Failing that, I'd try a basic calming signal, a head turn to expose the neck etc. Next level would be turning my entire body sideways to the dog. If that didn't work, I might turn all the way around. If that proved to be fruitless I'd turn around and go about my business. And finally, if that didn't work I'd try a little social deprivation: leave the area altogether, without the dog. Ultimate last resort would probably be an NRM followed by unemotionally crating the dog.


Throughout all of this, the key component is to IMMEDIATELY MARK and reward the dog for exhibiting the desired behaviour AS SOON AS IT OCCURS, (in conjunction with utilizing the lowest possible level of -P), or perhaps even BEFORE the undesired behaviour occurs so that punishment is not required at all, thereby avoiding the pattern of escalation. 'Get in there' quickly to begin with, as they say, would be the much preferred method. And, depending on the dog, I would use food delivered at floor level as a 'quiet reward' so-to-speak rather than verbal praise which seems to re-amp many dogs; in any case a general atmosphere of 'calmness' for both parties, human and dog, is the order of the day.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> I think it's the same as with any other form of punishment -- use the least amount to achieve the desired behaviour. Start small and work your way up if neccessary. So, I would probably start with removal of direct eye contact. Admittedly, this probably won't get the results when applied to very excited dogs, but with some it just may. Failing that, I'd try a basic calming signal, a head turn to expose the neck etc. Next level would be turning my entire body sideways to the dog. If that didn't work, I might turn all the way around. If that proved to be fruitless I'd turn around and go about my business. And finally, if that didn't work I'd try a little social deprivation: leave the area altogether, without the dog. Ultimate last resort would probably be an NRM followed by unemotionally crating the dog.
> 
> 
> Throughout all of this, the key component is to IMMEDIATELY MARK and reward the dog for exhibiting the desired behaviour AS SOON AS IT OCCURS, (in conjunction with utilizing the lowest possible level of -P), or perhaps even BEFORE the undesired behaviour occurs so that punishment is not required at all, thereby avoiding the pattern of escalation. 'Get in there' quickly to begin with, as they say, would be the much preferred method. And, depending on the dog, I would use food delivered at floor level as a 'quiet reward' so-to-speak rather than verbal praise which seems to re-amp many dogs; in any case a general atmosphere of 'calmness' for both parties, human and dog, is the order of the day.



I agree with this.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

qingcong said:


> Well this is interesting, cause what you guys did, I tried a few times as well. I must have failed using the original method because of a few possible reasons -


My guess is #3. 

It's like if I gave up on shaping on those first few epic failures due to his fear/insecurity issues, then I write off shaping as "invalid" with fearful dogs. #1 was probably a factor as well since it created "off timing". 

I think jumping is self-rewarding. It's fun in of itself, some say it's a natural greeting behavior in the canine world (especially if one dog is taller than the other) because all the dog is trying to do is get to our faces to sniff (I crawled in to see Wally once and he promptly sniffed and licked the corner of my lips - some would say that's a "submissive greeting behavior"...who knows). Something has to make the dog jump the very first time, and I doubt he'd do it if he thought it wasn't on some level a "safe" or rewarding behavior for him to do.

I don't even know what the "average dog" is anymore or if such a creature exists. I didn't exactly read a lot of training books and sites about shaping with a fearful dog or if it would even work. Is there even a step-by-step guide to shaping? I think just because this turn-around-to-stop-jumping method worked for Wally and I - I don't think that makes him "average" unless fearful dogs are the average dog. 

You became a better trainer not necessarily because he might not be "average" but because you debugged your own process, and changed it when it didn't get the results you were looking for. People with "average" dogs can become better by doing the same - people with "un-average" dogs might not become better (they might just give up). Has nothing to do with the "averageness" of the dog, imo.




qingcong said:


> I think because you mentioned you also backed away. That was the key step we did not do, because for a long time we were trained to "never back away from a dog, it will tell him he's dominant".


I just thought of this, and don't know if this in the "standard" approach, but perhaps another difference was that I used a cue/signal - which may have became like a marker and the reward was getting to do the behavior. 

Yeah, I'm going to go with this because I love marker training


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> Nope - I just turned around in place. Literally just crossed my arms and turned my back. Didn't walk/move away.


But that's not all you did. You describe asking for a sit and then allowing paws up. You also don't own an adolescent sporting dog.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> But that's not all you did. You describe asking for a sit and then allowing paws up. You also don't own an adolescent sporting dog.


I didn't ask for it - I required it. (I.e. he had to figure out to sit).

No, he was just an adolescent diva hyper emotionally-needy highly insecure dog - still capable of jumping if he wanted to or running around me when I turned my back. I don't think you need to be sporting dog to run 2 feet.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

thats why i dont turn around with my back to the dog, i always keep an eye on them so i can reward the instant they do the behavior im looking for (usually for me it is sit) it beats the heck out of stepping on the leash to make it really short so they cant jump or kneeing a dog in the chest or bopping it on the nose every time they jump. I have actually had more suscess with this method then kneeing in the chest, which the dog mostly thinks is a huge game.


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## chubby (Aug 18, 2011)

I just saw this really good video by kikopup on youtube, where you prevent the jumping in the first place. What you do, is go outside the door, as if you are coming home. Have a good smell treat ready, and as you open the door, put the treat on the ground so your dog follows the treat with his nose. Continue doing this until he's conditioned where whenever you enter, four paws on the ground. 

See video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC_OKgQFgzw


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

chubby said:


> I just saw this really good video by kikopup on youtube, where you prevent the jumping in the first place. What you do, is go outside the door, as if you are coming home. Have a good smell treat ready, and as you open the door, put the treat on the ground so your dog follows the treat with his nose. Continue doing this until he's conditioned where whenever you enter, four paws on the ground.
> 
> See video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC_OKgQFgzw



I've seen that video and like it a lot. It's coming from a pure positive reinforcement perspective, instead of the turn back/walking away, which is a kind of negative punishment. I think I will try that kind of method next if I get a chance, just to gauge the overall effectiveness and side effects.


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## ohbehave (Apr 20, 2012)

It seems that there are imperfections to almost any tactic, but thanks to unknown variables, many dogs forgive those imperfections and eventually "get it".

Although I am no dog trainer, these are my thoughts...

Negative Punishment 
- turning or turning and walking away could, _for some dogs_, turns into a thrilling game of keep away or chase-the-face. In much the same way, you can excite a dog further my pulling his favorite stuff slightly out of reach.
- each jump leads to close proximity to your beautiful faces (self reinforcing / automatic reinforcement) even as you play "be the tree"

Not that this is all bad, but these features could be the variables that make progress a little slower. The reinforcer that we're making available (and the timing) had better compete quite nicely against those reinforcers that we can't control.

The original poster's concerns about behavior chains sound legit, to me. Again, for unknown reasons, behavior chains sometimes don't happen even when you'd think they would. I'm stumped on that.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

ohbehave said:


> It seems that there are imperfections to almost any tactic, but thanks to unknown variables, many dogs forgive those imperfections and eventually "get it".
> 
> Although I am no dog trainer, these are my thoughts...
> 
> ...




Excellent points, executing a method properly requires acknowledging possible unwanted reinforcers and modifying the method to take into account reinforcers/punishers that you didn't expect at first.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> I didn't ask for it - I required it. (I.e. he had to figure out to sit).
> 
> No, he was just an adolescent diva hyper emotionally-needy highly insecure dog - still capable of jumping if he wanted to or running around me when I turned my back. I don't think you need to be sporting dog to run 2 feet.


Still. Different temperament. I'm pleased that what you did worked for you (and nothing wrong with it). Other methods might work better for different types of dogs.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ohbehave said:


> It seems that there are imperfections to almost any tactic, but thanks to unknown variables, many dogs forgive those imperfections and eventually "get it".
> 
> Although I am no dog trainer, these are my thoughts...
> 
> ...


As you say, how we use our reinforcers and how good our timing is a huge part of success or failure. Some dogs will perceive that jump jump jump sit gets reinforced. Some dogs will perceive it other ways. When I'm intentionally trying to create a behavior chain I generally back chain,.


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## Bateman (Mar 24, 2012)

Ignoring a dog when it's jumping has always worked wonders for me. My dog easily learned that he gets no attention when trying to climb or jump up to my face. The problem usually is are you keeping your hands away from any part of the dog while it's being frantic? My mother has this problem to much more severe degree. Her three dogs fight to climb and jump on her when they greet her. She consistently pets and talks to them while they do. Then she wonders why they scratch her up. The key is ignoring the dog entirely until they are settled and I mean completely settled!

Side note: I'm not seeing the merit of praising them the instant they have four on the floor. My border would definitely think jumping was totally okay as long as its under a minutes worth.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Bateman said:


> Ignoring a dog when it's jumping has always worked wonders for me. My dog easily learned that he gets no attention when trying to climb or jump up to my face. The problem usually is are you keeping your hands away from any part of the dog while it's being frantic? My mother has this problem to much more severe degree. Her three dogs fight to climb and jump on her when they greet her. She consistently pets and talks to them while they do. Then she wonders why they scratch her up. The key is ignoring the dog entirely until they are settled and I mean completely settled!
> 
> Side note: I'm not seeing the merit of praising them the instant they have four on the floor. My border would definitely think jumping was totally okay as long as its under a minutes worth.


The praising comes in because not only do you want to let your dog know what's not acceptable, you want to let him know what IS acceptable, or what to do instead. So, jumping to greet you, or greet guests, or what have you, is unacceptable, so it gets no attention, you ignore the dog. HOWEVER, praising 4 feet on the floor, says THIS is how you politely greet people.

You're trying to replace the jumping to greet with 4 on the floor to greet. You can't replace bad behavior with good if you don't show them what you DO want. Now, if that creates a behavior chain for your dog there are ways around that. For instance, after immediately praising for 4 on the floor, move on to something else, like immediately start a game of tug, or ask for some more commands, basically anything that will break the chain of "I jump, then I stop = I get a treat/praise, so let's go right back to jumping." This way, you are distracting your dog from the idea that jumping and then stopping gets treats so let's do it again. The further away his mind is from that idea (through your use of distraction/redirection) the less likely that behavior chain will be created.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

When we first adopted Biscuit, someone had clearly taught her to sit politely for greetings. It was charming and adorable. 

Unfortunately, certain husbands of mine don't mind Biscuit jumping up, and in fact think it's cute! At the same time, a lady at the dog park started to not only allow Biscuit to jump, but would scratch her ears and even sometimes give her treats. So now Biscuit is quite the jumper and we've been trying for months to get back to where we started. Or rather, I have been trying. My husband and random people have been "trying." Biscuit now jumps on me when I come in the door and I ignore it, but she sits right away when I tell her to sit, and then she gets praise and attention from me. 

My point is, I think part of what people might perceive as "ignoring dog jumping doesn't work" might actually be lack of consistency. Biscuit is still getting intermittent attention/rewards for jumping, so she's not learning not to. I think this is one of the cases where training the people is harder than training the dog.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

hamandeggs said:


> When we first adopted Biscuit, someone had clearly taught her to sit politely for greetings. It was charming and adorable.
> 
> Unfortunately, certain husbands of mine don't mind Biscuit jumping up, and in fact think it's cute! At the same time, a lady at the dog park started to not only allow Biscuit to jump, but would scratch her ears and even sometimes give her treats. So now Biscuit is quite the jumper and we've been trying for months to get back to where we started. Or rather, I have been trying. My husband and random people have been "trying." Biscuit now jumps on me when I come in the door and I ignore it, but she sits right away when I tell her to sit, and then she gets praise and attention from me.
> 
> My point is, I think part of what people might perceive as "ignoring dog jumping doesn't work" might actually be lack of consistency. Biscuit is still getting intermittent attention/rewards for jumping, so she's not learning not to. I think this is one of the cases where training the people is harder than training the dog.


Exactly this. Recently Jubel's been jumping on people again which he hadn't been doing for a while. He still doesn't jump on me when I come home and he isn't jumping up on everyone but in a number of situations he is... and is getting rewarded for doing so by those people. I'm going to have to talk to some of my dog loving neighbors and try and get them to stop rewarding this. That'll be a challenge.


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