# CM's 'touch'... is it actually a kick?



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have been talking to ppl on other forums & this topic after someone posted a montage of CM clips from various seasons & EPs & it does seem as though his 'touches' are quite rough. Now I will admit to being a traditionalist in some aspects but I would never use that kind of physical force such as choking a dog out as he is shown doing & kicking. I know hw is changing his ways (or trying to any way) what do you guys think.

I don't know how to post videos but if you do a search 'Cesar Millan kicking dogs' then it will come up.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

Ha maybe your on the same other forum as me 

I think often he is way way over the top with his physical violence.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I won't name the forums but this topic is on a few that I frequent, I was just curious to see what this lot has to say about him. I will say that one of the forums has mainly European members who have different more strict views on what is acceptable & what is not.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Yes, CM's physical punishers have been discussed at length here.





And I'll always believe they are unnecessary, and there are more humane approaches.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

This is the first time I saw this video and I am disgusted. I haven't watched the show much but I always assumed his "methods" were more hands-on than I cared for them to be, but I was shocked to see he actually made dogs limp.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Hmm you know I've watched like 3 seasons of CM and I have to say I don't think most of the time he's being overly rough. In most of the situations his hand jab doesn't look like he's hitting the dog, more like a push. His leg usually pushes the dogs as well not really kicks them or tries to inflict force. His collar chokes can be a bit rough but I've seen some obedience handlers/trainers use similar techniques. 

Although I'm not a fan of his methods at all, I don't use any of his techniques, I don't think they're as violent as some may think. The alpha roll stuff is over the top but I do believe he really cares about his dogs and treats them well.

I think he has a lot of presence with dogs and people just trying to jab their dogs or tap them with their feet may not have the same effect at all as caesar.

Edit: Even in this video, you can see he's not actually kicking.... I've seen dogs play and bump into each other rougher than he's kicking them. I don't think he's hurting the dogs any. It just surprises them. Some of the neck grabbing and rolling is quite violent though.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Some of them look like kicks, some look like shoves to me. He's not kicking them really hard, but half the time I don't understand why he's correcting them. It looks like half the time the dog is being corrected for *looking* at another dog.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I think he's correcting the dogs for "looking" because they are starting to fixate on the other dog. If a dog is already DR or DA fixation is the first step of overstimulation imo. 

For example in trying to desensitize my dog's reactivity, if she's supposed to keep her eyes on me and focus on me but she starts to fixate and can't take her eyes off the dog passing by, that's over her threshold already. So with desensitizing, I just walk her in the opposite direction of the other dog so that we have more distance in between.

i think CM is trying to do something similar except just with physical corrections.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I've seen dogs play and bump into each other rougher than he's kicking them. I don't think he's hurting the dogs any. It just surprises them.


I don't think you can judge how painful/hard the dogs are kicked on any level. All that we can judge is the dog's reaction, and none of it I would describe as appropriate/desirable/necessary.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't think you can judge how painful/hard the dogs are kicked on any level. All that we can judge is the dog's reaction, and none of it I would describe as appropriate/desirable/necessary.


I'm just saying that it may not be justified to say that CM is abusing the dogs he trains. 

I'm just thinking about horseback riding. We often use crops or spurs on the horses and it doesn't really hurt them. It may look like it does but since they're so much bigger, it doesn't really do any damage to them provided the rider is using the equipment correctly. Even some people loving on their horses or dogs can be smacking quite hard. 

Again, I'm not saying that he's justified in the kicks or jabs, I'm just saying I don't think he's actually hurting the dogs.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

If someone's foot intentionally made contact with the sensitive underbelly area most of these "touches" were aimed for on any one of my dogs, I don't know if I could control my anger. Tap on the shoulder or hip to redirect attention... sure! I've done that before and my dogs have come to associate it with "mom wants to play!" I use body blocks to position my dogs too and my feet even touch my dogs at times! My feet surely don't touch the underbelly and no one will ever mistake my body blocking for a kick.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

You can't compare what is done in play to what is done when people are reactive. That makes no sense to me. Sure, when I play with my dogs I get a bit rough. My dog trusts me, is relaxed, and emotionally positive.

For a human comparison, I used to play fight and wrestle with my brothers. Then I could do the exact same thing to a complete stranger and the stranger would end up injured. Would you be OK with a complete stranger "playing" with you like your husband/boyfriend/close friends do? Touching you the way they do? I sure know I would not. Pleasurable touches turn painful, even though it's the same motion, based on level of trust, relaxation, and confidence.

These dogs are emotionally charged. They are not in a sense of play. They are not relaxed and able to shrug off shoves and pats. They are frozen and taking hits full force, rather than the fluid motions that normally happen in play. This is abuse, no matter how you look at it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> You can't compare what is done in play to what is done when people are reactive. That makes no sense to me. Sure, when I play with my dogs I get a bit rough. My dog trusts me, is relaxed, and emotionally positive.


Was just thinking about this today. I smack my dog's butt sometimes when playing with her.. but if I ever tried to do the same as a punishment, I think she'd know the difference and would be very unnerved by it. It's not just the physical contact - there's a psychological aspect to pain depending on the situation.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Hmm....interesting.

RBark, if you saw a trainer leash popping a dog in obedience or a really rough collar grab because they were not supposed to retrieve the dumbell or something like that. Would you call that abuse?

The trainer isn't a family member and the dogs are usually pretty focused, tensed up for obedience.

My personal opinion is that he isn't hurting the dogs with his foot. He probably is hurting that bulldog by grabbing her by the neck and pulling her off the ground and trying to hold her by the scruff of her neck. I don't agree with his methods at all and I'm not advocating hitting/kicking or choking your dogs by any means. JMHO.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

I saw a few dogs tense up, arch their back, and even limp a couple of steps after the "touch". All signs of pain rather than surprise to me. I would think any contact of foot to underbelly would be painful to a dog, then again I live with a group of four wussy dogs who yelp and whimper if a belly rub gets too intense :laugh:


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Hmm....interesting.
> 
> RBark, if you saw a trainer leash popping a dog in obedience or a really rough collar grab because they were not supposed to retrieve the dumbell or something like that. Would you call that abuse?
> 
> ...


Saying dogs are sensitive in the area he's kicking them is putting it mildly. It's a totally unprotected area. Even Kobe, my carefree dog who thinks being grabbed by the neck and tossed is a fun game, will startle when accidently grabbed in that area. There was a sled dog owner who, during Iditarod, maliciously kicked a dog in that area and the dog later died from it. Just one kick. Dogs are hardy enough to withstand a lot of abuse, so that is very telling. It's an extremely vulnerable area. And dogs are hardwired to protect it. Even in play, they do not attack that area.

I absolutely believe that those dogs were in pain from those kicks and it was abuse. That, to me, is far worse than an e-collar or any kind of leash correction.

I wouldn't call your scenario abuse but I would call them idiots. If the dog is doing dumbell retrieves, I assume he is far along his training and knows what punishment (however irrational) to expect and what they mean and why they are getting punished. These dogs have absolutely no clue why they are being punished or what that kick means. He is just kicking them until they shut down in fear.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Curbside prophet - yeah that clip of him with the golden I can't see what the dog did in that vid to warrant a touch anyway... Oh well.

Lol fuzzy I have to comment your little dog (jack Russell I assume?) is adorable! Not oj topic but I had to say it, I've been meaning to for a while.

Its clear that European opinion on cm is alot harsher then ours, we think that he isn't that bad... They think he is the devil.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> Lol fuzzy I have to comment your little dog (jack Russell I assume?) is adorable! Not oj topic but I had to say it, I've been meaning to for a while.


Heh, thanks He is half Jack Russell, the other half we don't know


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I watched the video with the clip where he side kicks (from behind) the Husky. The Husky flips out and tries to nail him... and then he puts a full choke on the Husky and chokes him when he flips out. Up Escalating the violence with more up escalating violence is just not smart.. in most situations. Every dog with the exception of the husky and the English Bull dog responds to the kick with both diverted attention AND submissive/calming postures. 

I have used someone strong arm tactics on animals to handle them when it might save their lives (like doing whatever is necessary to get a cow in a headlock so I can help her have a calf that is stuck in her birth canal due to dystocia). I also have had to use strong arm tactics to protect my own skin (a horse rearing above me and trying to strike me with front feet because he found out he could do this and people would run away.. is way too dangerous to not protect yourself from). However, if those tactics were necessary at the time, they were never the norm and never part of any on going training. 

What I see in those videos is not so good. Of course the clips are out of context and I do not know what the rest of the story is. Not saying this to condone the kicking.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Lil fuzzy- I can see the jack russell in him love that clip of him looking from under the furniture... Very cute!

Yes that clip if him choking that husky out is pretty bad, & what's also bad is is that the husky bit him (as he showed by the tear I'm his sweater after the dog collapses) now the dog has a bite history unfortunately


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I just dont see this as kicking or abuse whether you are a fan of his training or not. Labeling this as inappropriate or ineffective Ok/maybe but abuse seems like a lot of reaching.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

No matter how you want to define abuse, inappropriate kicking is abuse.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

inappropriate kicking is abuse.>>>>


its not kicking defining at such is misleading in my eyes


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I really am not sure how you don't see it as kicking. If I did that to anyone they would say "hey why did you kick me"


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> I won't name the forums but this topic is on a few that I frequent, I was just curious to see what this lot has to say about him. I will say that one of the forums has mainly European members who have different more strict views on what is acceptable & what is not.


 Does it also have a horse forum attached?


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Hmm you know I've watched like 3 seasons of CM and I have to say I don't think most of the time he's being overly rough. In most of the situations his hand jab doesn't look like he's hitting the dog, more like a push. His leg usually pushes the dogs as well not really kicks them or tries to inflict force. His collar chokes can be a bit rough but I've seen some obedience handlers/trainers use similar techniques.
> 
> Although I'm not a fan of his methods at all, I don't use any of his techniques, I don't think they're as violent as some may think. The alpha roll stuff is over the top but I do believe he really cares about his dogs and treats them well.
> 
> ...


Ditto everything here.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Edit: Even in this video, you can see he's not actually kicking.... I've seen dogs play and bump into each other rougher than he's kicking them. I don't think he's hurting the dogs any. It just surprises them. Some of the neck grabbing and rolling is quite violent though.


If I pull Wally's hair while he's playing - he's crouching down trying to play back, etc.

If I do it while I'm training him - I get calming signals. 

Obviously, the same action in the different context is perceived differently _by the dog_ (whether I consider it the same is irrelevant) 

So if he's all playful and I push him across the bed or even throw him, he doesn't care and will come back at me and bounce around and play growl and jump up on me - if I do that during training, he would be staying the heck away from me because obviously, I'm pissed (in his mind), so he needs to give me space (calming signal) and has his head and tail down (calming signals)

Context matters, as does the dog's existing emotional state. If were to pull Wally's hair while he was fearful, do you think he'd consider it the same as if when he's playful? If I kicked him during play, would he consider it the same as if I kicked him when he's scared or during training? No, he wouldn't.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I really am not sure how you don't see it as kicking. If I did that to anyone they would say "hey why did you kick me">>


LOl maybe because people are not used to you touching them with your foot. but if you came up behind them and patted them on the shoulder as hard as he "kicked them" they would say "whats up". Im not arguing effectiveness in training just the abuse angle- which i feel is a real stretch of the imagination.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

jiml said:


> I really am not sure how you don't see it as kicking. If I did that to anyone they would say "hey why did you kick me">>
> 
> 
> LOl maybe because people are not used to you touching them with your foot. but if you came up behind them and patted them on the shoulder as hard as he "kicked them" they would say "whats up". Im not arguing effectiveness in training just the abuse angle- which i feel is a real stretch of the imagination.


Some of the dogs were launched in the air by the kick. That's not a pat on the back.


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## PretzleDog (Jun 9, 2010)

I'm not sure if anyone remembers my first post here http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/78547-sorry-my-first-post.html but I've since heard that this trainer is a CM follower. Maybe that's what her kicking the Rottie was about? It was more to his lower ribs than his underbelly though.

All my complaints about her to authorities got me exactly nowhere, but I have heard several of her clients complain about her.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

Is it a kick? Of course it is. What else would you call it? I don't think it is hard enough to inflict injury ..therefore in my mind he is not abusing these dogs. It may smart the dog or starte them, I don't pretend to know. It hurt when I got spanked for crossing the street without permission when I was little. It was not abuse. It got my attention and it stung and it worked. Does not mean it is the right thing for all parents to do. But I was not abused. 

The definition of abuse has a ton of gray areas. Just ask a parent who opts pops a toddler on the diaper as opposed to a completely non spanking parent. 

I hate that foot to the flank thing..but I doubt something like that is enough to cause an injury per say..so I opt to call it a strong difference in opinion on how to handle dogs ( between CM and myself). I don't agree with it and I would not do it..but that does not automatically qualify it as abuse. I don't think my opinion carries that much power. If I read the kick was hard enough where dogs were being injured and needing treatment by these kicks or if it was obvious the dog was injured ( yelping in pain would be one example) , that to me is more concrete evidence of physical abuse than the mere obvious signs the dog does not like being lightly hit by a foot in that area.

I guess I compare to the looks of horror you would get these days if your young kid was going near a socket for the 5th time in a day and you finally took the step to slap his hand or butt and yell NOOO. Plenty of other parents would call that abuse..while plenty of parents would not.

Low level contact like that is too subjective of a thing for me to outright call it abuse. A personal foul? Sure. But I would need to see something a bit more physically hard than that heel boot to call AC on someone. 

I don't like his leash corrections either . I would be more worried about trachea damage from that sort of thing than I would from his kick corrections. His leash corrections get my attention more as a potentially injurious technique than that heel boot does.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

As long as Cesar is alive and maybe even after there will be those folks who think of him as an abusive monster and those who don't. I doubt that either side will ever see eye to eye on the subject. My biggest issue with Cesar has always been the fools that try to mimic what they see on the show but have zero dog sense or timing.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Inga said:


> As long as Cesar is alive and maybe even after there will be those folks who think of him as an abusive monster and those who don't. I doubt that either side will ever see eye to eye on the subject. My biggest issue with Cesar has always been the fools that try to mimic what they see on the show but have zero dog sense or timing.


Ditto and the timing and dog sense comes from working many, many, many, many, oh heck, a lot of dogs. Still neutral on CM myself. He does get a lot of coverage on DF.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

Inga said:


> As long as Cesar is alive and maybe even after there will be those folks who think of him as an abusive monster and those who don't. I doubt that either side will ever see eye to eye on the subject. My biggest issue with Cesar has always been the fools that try to mimic what they see on the show but have zero dog sense or timing.


Yes , the thought of an inexperienced new owner trying to "alpha roll" a dog showing food guarding or something is what concerns me more than his annoying foot pop/kick , strong leash corrections , or his practically patented shhhht! noise ( I hear so many people doing that noise lol ) . A new owner has a new dog that is resource guarding ..he alpha rolls it because that is what CM does. Dog bites him , maybe badly. Now you have an injured person and dog who will be labeled a biter and is probably doomed now anyway.

I also do not agree with his mentality that "true red zone" cases can always be rehabilitated and remain with the family. If a large strong dog has displayed severe DA or HA I think it only belongs with a person trained and/or experienced in handling such issues. Fixing a family's DA or HA dog in a few visits from CM , then leaving the dog there with the family( who was obviously incapable of handling the dangerous issue to begin with) thinking all is solved is very iresponisble IMO. 

I have cringed at a few episodes where a dog that had serious issues and a weak owner ( or even one where there were children involved) . CM saves the day , then that is it. IMO if the dog had that serious of an issue to begin with , you will never know when that tendency will emerge again. IMO it is better for the people to be very wary of it rather than walk around with their guard down because they think their dog is over it.

Then again , it is TV. Who knows if the dog was really that bad , if they didn't follow up with intensive help from another trainer after CMs appearance , or what. All I know is there are plenty of people out there who will watch the show and then think they are qualified to cure red zone agrresssion cases just like CM does ( eyes rolling) 

Quite frankly I'm surpised you never hear any negative follow ups from dogs that were under his tutelage ((shrug))


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Katielou>> don't think it does, if you'd like i can pm you the names as I don't feel comfortable discussion them on here.

Sandydj>> it doesn't surprise me at all that there isn't any beg follow ups televised as it would be bad PR I suppose. Like wvasko Olin neutral on the guy but don't agree with Joe blow trying his methods.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Don't know if it's the same for dogs, but I find it extremelt uncomfortable to be tapped in my abdomen. It's REALLY sensitive, and the most painful/uncomfortable place to be hit or kicked or tapped. So even if it's just a light tap that normally wouldn't hurt, he's going for the most sensitive area, and the only reason he's doing that is obviously because he knows it's a sensitive area and that the kick will cause more discomfort/pain than if he kicked/tapped the dog anywhere else.

I agree that context is also very important, I was talking to a friend the other day and he was telling me about the staffy he had as a kid. He said the staffy didn't feel pain, he jumped through windows without feeling it, and during play he would throw him around and smack him and the dog didn't care. But if he smacked him as punishment, the dog would cower and go all submissive.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Lilfuzzy>> I suppose that it is the mental of it all isn't it? Because as tough as Izze is (she has taken numerous kicks from livestock without batting an eye) will tuck her tail & snake crawl along the ground if I so much as stare her down & utter the words 'bad dog' lol.


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

I must say, I've watched his shows and never noticed the kicking. Of course, I'm usually cooking dinner while watching TV, but...
If I saw him kick my dog like that, I'd snatch my dog away and kick CM in the gut. That said, I dont think he's 100% wrong with all of his methods, but I definitely dont agree with a lot of his philosophies, like the alpha crap. Wether he's inflicting pain or not (and it looks like he is in many of those clips) I think the emotional aspect of being kicked is pretty harmful too. Cant even imagine how Remy would feel if I kicked him!!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

sandydj said:


> Is it a kick? Of course it is. What else would you call it? I don't think it is hard enough to inflict injury ..therefore in my mind he is not abusing these dogs. It may smart the dog or starte them, I don't pretend to know. It hurt when I got spanked for crossing the street without permission when I was little. It was not abuse. It got my attention and it stung and it worked. Does not mean it is the right thing for all parents to do. But I was not abused.
> 
> The definition of abuse has a ton of gray areas. Just ask a parent who opts pops a toddler on the diaper as opposed to a completely non spanking parent.
> 
> ...


Yeah I was from the spanking generation. If I was told to do or not to do something, then I was spanked (over the important stuff like touching the stove while moms cooking or running in the street). For lesser offenses I would get time outs lol. My folks were very strict, if I didn't like what was served for dinner then I either ate it or I went to bed hungry, mom never caved & made me eat anything else.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't think you can judge how painful/hard the dogs are kicked on any level. All that we can judge is the dog's reaction, and none of it I would describe as appropriate/desirable/necessary.


I agree. I did the TSST thing on Auz's neck once and he was like "SWEET! Now it's MY turn!" I think he'd be like "oh, you bumped me...'s OK" if I did the foot touch thing. Tag OTOH would probably view it as very aversive.

_I don't like his leash corrections either . I would be more worried about trachea damage from that sort of thing than I would from his kick corrections. His leash corrections get my attention more as a potentially injurious technique than that heel boot does. _

Slightly OT, but my concern about trachea damage comes from JQP who will not (or cannot) teach their dogs to give to leash pressure, and don't train through the opposition reflex. I can't count how many dogs I groom who would rather hang themselves than stand up, no matter how much slack you give them in a leash. They're only comfortable pulling against it.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I agree. I did the TSST thing on Auz's neck once and he was like "SWEET! Now it's MY turn!" I think he'd be like "oh, you bumped me...'s OK" if I did the foot touch thing. Tag OTOH would probably view it as very aversive.
> 
> _I don't like his leash corrections either . I would be more worried about trachea damage from that sort of thing than I would from his kick corrections. His leash corrections get my attention more as a potentially injurious technique than that heel boot does. _
> 
> Slightly OT, but my concern about trachea damage comes from JQP who will not (or cannot) teach their dogs to give to leash pressure, and don't train through the opposition reflex. I can't count how many dogs I groom who would rather hang themselves than stand up, no matter how much slack you give them in a leash. They're only comfortable pulling against it.


A quick jerk and a steady pull are two different things. Think of it as pushing someone against the wall steadily. It might be uncomfortable but is unlikely to do lasting damage. Do a quick push, with the equal force, against a wall the person will likely be hurt more.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> A quick jerk and a steady pull are two different things. Think of it as pushing someone against the wall steadily. It might be uncomfortable but is unlikely to do lasting damage. Do a quick push, with the equal force, against a wall the person will likely be hurt more.


But you don't think dogs who lean into their collars and happily drag their owners everywhere they go (while cough-choking) isn't doing *some* damage to their trachea?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I just re-read your comment and realized I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were saying that you thought leash jerks don't do much damage because dogs voluntarily put pressure on the leash. I see now that's not the case so my reply is moot. Sorry!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Unless he's a ninja, there's no way he can do a kick behind his back with his shoes on and control it well enough every time to ensure he's not exerting enough force to hurt _any_ of those dogs. Probably some he is, and some he isn't. It's an awfully imprecise movement, though. 

IMO.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Unless he's a ninja, there's no way he can do a kick behind his back with his shoes on and control it well enough every time to ensure he's not exerting enough force to hurt _any_ of those dogs. Probably some he is, and some he isn't. It's an awfully imprecise movement, though. IMO.


Well it's not exactly diamond cutting.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Well it's not exactly diamond cutting.


Yes but if the point is to correct the dog rather than to hurt it, it seems like a poor choice to me. 

I actually agree that it's possible to do what appears to be kicking a dog without actually hurting it, but trying to have any kind of control over the force of a behind your back kick when you're not even really looking at the dog isn't the way to go about it and IS a good way to hurt some dogs. 

Again, IMO.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> Yeah I was from the spanking generation. If I was told to do or not to do something, then I was spanked (over the important stuff like touching the stove while moms cooking or running in the street). For lesser offenses I would get time outs lol. My folks were very strict, if I didn't like what was served for dinner then I either ate it or I went to bed hungry, mom never caved & made me eat anything else.



Heh my mom never made me anything I didn't like - we liked the same kinds of food so it was never an issue 

I was never spanked - my mom preferred the negative punishment approach (time out/grounding/lose allowance) for corrections. Never physical - and she got the point across just fine.

Maybe that's why I'm a shaping fanatic, I was basically raised with it.


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## MusherChic (Nov 6, 2010)

I haven't watched a whole lot of CM but from what I have seen he seems a bit harsh in his methods. 

My biggest issue with CM is beginner dog owners will pick up his book/watch him on TV and try to copy his methods and when they don't work right away like they do on TV people will get frustrated and actually hit or kick the dog instead of "pushing" them or "tapping" them. Then they will say "Well Ceasar said...." and then people ( not all, but some) think its ok to kick and hit their dog for the sake of "being the alpha". 

I'd hate to see him try to train one of my huskies......that would be a scene....


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I tried to post this earlier, but had technical issues so I posted it on FB-DF, now that my posting ability has returned..here are my thoughts:

It is nigh near impossible to temper a behind the back heel kick's speed and power. It is aimed at the inguinal/groin area between the ribs and thigh, where there is little protection from injury. CM has martial arts training that may or may not allow him to temper the force (though I doubt it) but JQP, who is the one emulating the moves will likely not be able to do so and may potentially injure the dog or cause it to react fearfully or aggressively. 

Setting a dog up to fail, just to enable punishment of a behaviour to occur, is patently unfair...and punishment applied unfairly or without clarity of context is, in my opinion, abusive..regardless of whether it is physically injurious.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Cracker said:


> I tried to post this earlier, but had technical issues so I posted it on FB-DF, now that my posting ability has returned..here are my thoughts:
> 
> It is nigh near impossible to temper a behind the back heel kick's speed and power. It is aimed at the inguinal/groin area between the ribs and thigh, where there is little protection from injury. CM has martial arts training that may or may not allow him to temper the force (though I doubt it) but JQP, who is the one emulating the moves will likely not be able to do so and may potentially injure the dog or cause it to react fearfully or aggressively.
> 
> Setting a dog up to fail, just to enable punishment of a behaviour to occur, is patently unfair...and punishment applied unfairly or without clarity of context is, in my opinion, abusive..regardless of whether it is physically injurious.


Well I don't understand need for a heel/toe kicks at all, if you use a foot it should be side of foot for moving a dog never toe or heel and it's not a kick type action at all, more of a wall when dog tries to bolt from left side come around in back to jump up on right side. The dog runs into side of leg/foot. Yes it is a matter of proper timing etc.

Oh boy I suppose, gonna get in trouble for this, hopefully the message that toes/heels do not get used because of possible injury gets through.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Heh my mom never made me anything I didn't like - we liked the same kinds of food so it was never an issue
> 
> I was never spanked - my mom preferred the negative punishment approach (time out/grounding/lose allowance) for corrections. Never physical - and she got the point across just fine.
> 
> Maybe that's why I'm a shaping fanatic, I was basically raised with it.


Mine didn't, either. I hated fish with a passion because it made me feel what I can only describe as "gaggy" (We found out later that I'm actually allergic to it). Mom would always make me something else, but she wasn't a restaurant...it was a twice a month type of thing. All my mom had to do was give me a "look" to bring me down a notch. 
It's not surprising to me that I pretty much ignore people who scream, yell and go insane when they're upset/whatever. When people stay "quiet" about it, I tend to listen much, much more.



RBark said:


> I just re-read your comment and realized I misunderstood what you said. I thought you were saying that you thought leash jerks don't do much damage because dogs voluntarily put pressure on the leash. I see now that's not the case so my reply is moot. Sorry!


Hey, no problem 



MusherChic said:


> I haven't watched a whole lot of CM but from what I have seen he seems a bit harsh in his methods.
> 
> My biggest issue with CM is beginner dog owners will pick up his book/watch him on TV and try to copy his methods and when they don't work right away like they do on TV people will get frustrated and actually hit or kick the dog instead of "pushing" them or "tapping" them. Then they will say "Well Ceasar said...." and then people ( not all, but some) think its ok to kick and hit their dog for the sake of "being the alpha".
> 
> I'd hate to see him try to train one of my huskies......that would be a scene....


I *was* impressed once. It was a door-charging boxer on the show, and CM did his "Tsst" heel kick thingie and the dog TOTALLY ignored him. He continued tapping the dog, who totally ignored him 100%, and was busy attacking the door at another dog. I found it kind of cool that CM decided his "once size fits all" idea WASN'T working, and used cheese instead to get him to ignore dogs at the door. 
Guess what worked. <g>
I've said it once and I'll say it again...I can stomach CM because I honestly see him evolving and using a MUCH wider range of tools. I still don't agree on everything he does, but I don't agree with half the stuff I see Victoria do (though, that could be geographical differences as I know UK isn't sold on crates, etc). Trainer evolution is one of the most important things to me. We all started somewhere, kwim?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Trainer evolution is one of the most important things to me. We all started somewhere


Which is one of the reasons I give CM a little credit. I think that he has grown a LOT in his training. Granted I don't watch his show unless I happen to be at a friends who has it on but... The first show I saw was rough handling of a dog, that was years ago. Now, the last ones I have seen I hear his approach is more gentle. Everyone can grow if they chose. That is if everyone doesn't cut them down before that happens.

I am a believer in "if you know better, you do better." I feel the reason for many of the abuses that happen in life is because that is all the person knows. I suspect Cesar is simply using what he has been taught or known to work for him. As he goes along he seems to be softening his approach with new learning. I give him credit for that. Change doesn't come over night but if a person is willing, it does come. 
I just don't think that Cesar is as nasty as some folks make him out to be. I also do not agree with some of the things I have seen on the show. Then again, not sure there is anyone I agree with 100% I think we can all learn a little something from most everyone. If nothing else, you can learn what NOT to do. In the case of CM, I WISH people would take away the EXERCISE, DISCIPLINE and THEN AFFECTION rule. I think it is a good one and if that simple rule was practiced in most households, the dogs would be happier, healthier and safer. The same would undoubtedly go for the owners.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Well I don't understand need for a heel/toe kicks at all, if you use a foot it should be side of foot for moving a dog never toe or heel and it's not a kick type action at all, more of a wall when dog tries to bolt from left side come around in back to jump up on right side. The dog runs into side of leg/foot. Yes it is a matter of proper timing etc.
> 
> Oh boy I suppose, gonna get in trouble for this, hopefully the message that toes/heels do not get used because of possible injury gets through.


I wholeheartedly agree, and will also if necessary use my legs/feet to BLOCK dogs for some things...but no one needs to be aiming a foot/toe/heel at the dog. I was just trying to stay out of the judgement of CM and stick to the "facts" of the matter as to whether it would be considered a kick and whether I think it is a safe aversive to use.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I was just trying to stay out of the judgement of CM and stick to the "facts" of the matter as to whether it would be considered a kick and whether I think it is a safe aversive to use.


Exactly, the CM judgement thing is beyond me.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Cracker said:


> I wholeheartedly agree, and will also if necessary use my legs/feet to BLOCK dogs for some things...but no one needs to be aiming a foot/toe/heel at the dog.


Same here, but I'm a hands-off trainer with Wally by necessity even if I believed in physical contact as a correction.

Guess I'd rather control the dog by controlling the dog's mind instead of his body if at all possibly. Own the mind, you own the body.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

KBLover said:


> Same here, but I'm a hands-off trainer with Wally by necessity even if I believed in physical contact as a correction.
> 
> Guess I'd rather control the dog by controlling the dog's mind instead of his body if at all possibly. Own the mind, you own the body.


I thought we had discussed this mind control thing, We all know who is controlling who at "The Wally's" house.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Cracker said:


> I wholeheartedly agree, and will also if necessary use my legs/feet to BLOCK dogs for some things...but no one needs to be aiming a foot/toe/heel at the dog. I was just trying to stay out of the judgement of CM and stick to the "facts" of the matter as to whether it would be considered a kick and whether I think it is a safe aversive to use.


That's what I was trying to get at too, but I didn't articulate it as well as you did.


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