# Grape controversy



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

This isn't a scientific source, but even taken with a grain of salt, it is radically different than the "NO GRAPES. EVER." mindset I've had all the way up till now.
I have no reason to ever give my dog grapes regardless, and honestly I don't think he would like them. But still, I'm disappointed in myself for accepting a one-way 'truth' for so long without looking into it myself..


http://www.nomorevetbills.com/2011/grapes-toxic-to-dogs/


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Still not going to give my dogs grapes or raisins.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

With a site named "no more vet bills" I didn't even bother reading the whole article. A site that discredits vets saying veterinarian toxicity beliefs are a myth? What a surprise. 

They also haven't figured out why chicken jerky from china is causing renal failure and death in dogs. So it must all be a myth right?


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah, the premise of the article is a little strange to me. She's basically saying because they don't know why (yet?) there MUST not be any correlation at all? I think I'd need a little more evidence to disprove that there is a correlation. Although I'm coming into this article with a preexisting distaste for the author. She had some article a while back where she went on a huge rant about how canned sardines are horrible for dogs, simply because they aren't "as good" as raw sardines and because most are canned in sauce. Which is dumb because sardines canned in spring water are widely available too. Idk, she makes really silly points sometimes and is kind of a raw food extremist IMO.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

zhaor said:


> With a site named "no more vet bills" I didn't even bother reading the whole article. A site that discredits vets saying veterinarian toxicity beliefs are a myth? What a surprise.
> 
> They also haven't figured out why chicken jerky from china is causing renal failure and death in dogs. So it must all be a myth right?


The myth thing was quite the claim. But still, I can't ignore the anecdotes from many dog owners whose grape/raisin eating dogs are fine. The whole reason for my search was I got into a debate with my roommate who feeds his mini poodle grapes. Of course, I can't ignore the handful of dogs who have died eating them too. Like Chaos I am still not going to risk it with mine... But it's just something that I thought for 6 years was seriously fatal to dogs.



kafkabeetle said:


> Yeah, the premise of the article is a little strange to me. She's basically saying because they don't know why (yet?) there MUST not be any correlation at all? I think I'd need a little more evidence to disprove that there is a correlation. Although I'm coming into this article with a preexisting distaste for the author. She had some article a while back where she went on a huge rant about how canned sardines are horrible for dogs, simply because they aren't "as good" as raw sardines and because most are canned in sauce. Which is dumb because sardines canned in spring water are widely available too. Idk, she makes really silly points sometimes and is kind of a raw food extremist IMO.


Did not know that about her! I just stumbled across this one article and did not look around further.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Canyx said:


> The myth thing was quite the claim. But still, I can't ignore the anecdotes from many dog owners whose grape/raisin eating dogs are fine. The whole reason for my search was I got into a debate with my roommate who feeds his mini poodle grapes. Of course, I can't ignore the handful of dogs who have died eating them too.


If you look a little more, that handful of dogs who died turns into a much larger number of dogs who got very sick but pulled through.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

kafkabeetle said:


> Yeah, the premise of the article is a little strange to me. She's basically saying because they don't know why (yet?) there MUST not be any correlation at all?


Yea, she kinda lost me there. For a long time, the toxic compound in onions wasn't known. When I was in school we were taught there was "something" in onions, now it's better understood. Plus, a lot of toxins are dose dependent and different individuals may have varying sensitivity, so... yea, not gonna feed them anytime soon.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Canyx said:


> Did not know that about her! I just stumbled across this one article and did not look around further.


Here's the particular article I had read before. Kind of made me laugh when she mentioned that no salt added would be so costly and whatever else. I get pouches of whole, unskinned sardines, no salt added in spring water for like $0.79 each at freaking Wal-Mart. Doesn't get much more accessible than that. They're cheaper than the flavored varieties generally. I think she tells lots of half truths to support her agendas.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I used to toss a grape (meaning ONE) to my mixed breed dogs all the time. They would have a blast pawing them all over the floor, the grapes would roll, they would pounce. After a few minutes, they would bite into them and they were gone. I never fed them a large quantity. I was talking to a woman who grew grapes in her yard. She said her dogs ate them all the time and never had a problem. Honestly, I don't see a reason for my dogs to eat them, so I don't give them to them "just in case".


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Plus, a lot of toxins are dose dependent and different individuals may have varying sensitivity, so... yea, not gonna feed them anytime soon.


Yeah, it worried me when I saw someone on another site saying something like, "I've fed my mini poodle grapes for years and she's never had any problems, so I KNOW that grapes aren't harmful to dogs." That person's next dog could very well have a much lower tolerance and end up incredibly sick. It's always dangerous when people apply their experience with one dog to all dogs.

And then there was this:



> Case in point: A patient of mine recently had to be rushed to the emergency service in the middle of the night after the husband failed to heed the wife’s warning on the raisin snack thing.
> 
> “All my dogs have always eaten raisins and this one will, too. I just wanted to prove it to you.”
> 
> Murphy’s Law being what it is, sickness ensued. Acute kidney failure. But luckily, no death. The cause of the illness was obvious. Treatment was swift. And the husband had to hang his head in shame and swallow the $3,000 bill for five days of ICU.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Um, yeah, saying that vets made it up to support the idea that pet owners are idiots and need to depend on vets for everything. . .kinda weird. I've never seen anything that said "OMG, your dog will DIE if he eats a grape!!1!", everything I've seen was quite reasonable and basically said "some dogs have died after eating grapes or raisins. We don't know why. But maybe you should avoid feeding your dogs grapes/raisins just in case".

I've heard it suggested that the toxicity may be from something the grapes were treated with or a fungus/other chemical change in the fruit (did you know clover becomes mildly toxic after a frost? Something like that), which is why it doesn't always happen.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

According to my vet, grapes are.toxic to some dogs and not others. My dog.and the dog I was taking care of got into my Raisin Bran. They were in the hospital for two days. My dog probably didn't get any but the other dog definitely ate some. His creatinine was elevated but thankfully he turned out ok. He cost me $1000 (my dog cost me less as I get a discount as I work at the hospital but her bloodwork was ok). Just prior to their hospitalization, there was a little dog who ate grapes and died. Raisins are ten times as toxic as grapes. I would rather be safe than sorry. If they don't know why, it doesn't mean it isn't toxic. We don't know the cause of cancer or autism so i guess they don't exist either?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Is it something like the sensitivity collies have to heartworm meds? I know some people feed their dogs grapes with no problem and other people's dogs eat a few grapes and die, which makes me wonder:

a) is it breed specific?

b) is it grape specific? (there are lots of different varieties of grapes)

c) is it something on the grape, like a pesticide?

I don't give my dogs grapes, either, but I don't freak out if my dog eats a grape that rolled onto the ground, either.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The grape and raisin thing is not breed specific, but the first articles reported Labs dying over the course of 3 - 5 days as their kidneys (and liver?) failed. I'm not positive, but I think the first reports were from the media, then the Vets cautiously started reporting, then strongly warning.

As far as I've seen, no one knows why or which dogs will get sick. It doesn't seem to be grape specific. They don't think that it is pesticide, maybe fungus, as Willowy suggests... but they just don't know.

The very scary thing is that the first reports were about Labs (who'll eat anything with few problems  ) and they ate a small handful, 3 - 5 or fewer, for a snack... Then died. [Lots of us give our Labs a little milk chocolate, knowing the large dog can handle it.]

I'm happy to hear from Crantastic that some dogs have lived!!! B/c the reports that I'd read were all fatal... so I assume there's some progress.

The other point, in my opinion, is that if you've been feeding grapes with no problems, I don't expect to see problems ... However, I don't recall if I gave my dog grapes (I imagine that I did - he's had chocolate, almonds, coffee, and macadamias  ) ... but no more grapes for him!!!


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

hanksimon said:


> The other point, in my opinion, is that if you've been feeding grapes with no problems, I don't expect to see problems ... !


The problem with this is that we know that some toxins are cumulative or slow-acting. Because we don't know what the toxin or toxins in grapes actually are, we obviously can't make any definitive statements about it or them. So it COULD be cumulative and/or slow acting. Heck, we can't even say if it is just grapes and raisins that are the problem, or also includes grape products such as juice, jelly, etc. The prudent approach at this time is to simply avoid feeding grapes and grape products completely , and if you dog ingests them accidently, call your vet or poison control.


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