# The "Bonker" method



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Check out this fool. 

And check out the NON-reaction of the woman in the background. A clear case where apathy is seldom a good thing. If I were her, at first sight of this I would've immediately pushed the chair out from underneath myself, then made a hasty and quite possibly vocal exit from the workshop. Yet, no reaction from her at all. None. What. So. Ever. Not even a blink.

WARNING : GRAPHIC. and potentially tear-inducing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8tWRXBHU_s


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

That organization is garbage. I wouldn't even call it a training center. I would call it a corrective facility. I'd like to see that guy bonk some of the shepherds and cattle dogs I work with. It's Yer Choice worked with those dogs in 5 minutes. Hitting with any object, however soft, would have resulted in bites (to the face, if the handler was sitting on the floor like that).


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.

That dog asked forgiveness in every fiber of its being and had NO IDEA why he was hit. NONE. 

That man should get on his knees and beg the forgiveness of EVERY DOG he has ever treated this way. Better yet, I know a couple of dogs who would have shown him a thing or two about his "method." There would have been blood.. and it would not be the dog's.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Check out this fool.
> 
> And check out the NON-reaction of the woman in the background. A clear case where apathy is seldom a good thing. If I were her, at first sight of this I would've immediately pushed the chair out from underneath myself, then made a hasty and quite possibly vocal exit from the workshop. Yet, no reaction from her at all. None. What. So. Ever. Not even a blink.
> 
> ...


Oh hey it's that the guy that claims to have clicker trained 1000 dogs before "teaming up" with Karen Pryor to introduce clicker training to the world.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> That organization is garbage. I wouldn't even call it a training center. I would call it a corrective facility. I'd like to see that guy bonk some of the shepherds and cattle dogs I work with. It's Yer Choice worked with those dogs in 5 minutes. Hitting with any object, however soft, would have resulted in bites (to the face, if the handler was sitting on the floor like that).


I can absolutely promise you Kiran would have latched onto that guy's face and then refused to let go - and he wouldn't have been mad OR scared when he did it. 

This is some of the stupidest crap I've seen in a long time, and that's saying something.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Canyx said:


> It's Yer Choice worked with those dogs in 5 minutes.


Yep. And this guy had a bag of treats and a clicker essentially IN HIS HANDS already. I mean, I just don't get it. 

Broadband analogy my foot. Hey buddy, your super-macho is leaking. Right from the spot where your brain used to be.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

gingerkid said:


> Oh hey it's that the guy that claims to have clicker trained 1000 dogs before "teaming up" with Karen Pryor to introduce clicker training to the world.


The same guy who gave this pearl of wisdom to the world .. "Adherence to a flawed ideology resembles nothing so much as abject stupidity". 

Well, he is an expert on abject stupidity. I'll give him that much.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

3GSD4IPO said:


> TOTALLY INAPPROPRIATE.
> 
> That dog asked forgiveness in every fiber of its being and had NO IDEA why he was hit. NONE.
> 
> That man should get on his knees and beg the forgiveness of EVERY DOG he has ever treated this way. Better yet, I know a couple of dogs who would have shown him a thing or two about his "method." There would have been blood.. and it would not be the dog's.


 He obviously hasn't the foggiest grasp of appeasement behaviour ~ oh look, he still wants the treat, he's crawling into my lap ~ .


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> This is some of the stupidest crap I've seen in a long time, and that's saying something.


Too bad it was soooo disheartening to see. If it weren't for that I'd almost call it popcorn-worthy entertainment, mostly because of the human derangement factor..


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> He obviously hasn't the foggiest grasp of appeasement behaviour ~ oh look, he still wants the treat, he's crawling into my lap ~ .


Based on his website, he doesn't know what "reinforcement" and "punishment" mean either.

Also, my bad, he doesn't just claim to have teamed up with Karen Pryor, he claims to have invented clicker training between 1987-1992. 

Except "Don't Shoot the Dog" came out in 1984...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Too bad it was soooo disheartening to see. If it weren't for that I'd almost call it popcorn-worthy entertainment, mostly because of the human derangement factor..


Yeah, it also made me rage and cry.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

This is all speculation and a little bit of projection. But as someone who used to use heavy handed methods - and enjoyed the 'immediate' results, and is still coming out of that mentality in subtle ways... I don't buy the 'corrections without anger or frustration' line. In fact, I am inclined to think that there is something dark in a person's mind for them to accept and enjoy methods like this. I am not talking about general corrections, or even use of corrective tools. I am talking about blatantly hitting a dog with an object, yanking dogs hard enough that they crash to the ground, and what passes as 'training' for organizations like these. To laugh about it, make jokes about it, think the dog is 'okay' from it... 

Like, there is a part of a person's brain that _likes_ sick stuff like that, gets a rise out of it, thinks it is morally acceptable. Doing stuff like this to animals changes a person's brain, in a scary way.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Basically, for a person to do stuff like this they need to be angry, delusional, or both. Healthy, mentally stable, kind, and empathetic people do not do stuff like this to animals, or when they do they feel some sort of remorse. Again, I am not talking about use of P+ or certain tools in training. I am talking about hitting a frickin dog with a frickin object or willfully inflicting enough pain/discomfort that the animal is cowering or showing tons of stress signals afterward...


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I was incredibly put off by the sheer indifference of the woman in the background too. This is what really concerns me as well, it's not just one person's callous disregard, it's how easily it transfers from one disciple or devotee to another. To think she "learned" from that seminar, was likely to do the same with her own dog afterwards, and then trumpet the virtues to whoever will listen down the line. And so on, and so on.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> Based on his website, he doesn't know what "reinforcement" and "punishment" mean either.
> 
> Also, my bad, he doesn't just claim to have teamed up with Karen Pryor, he claims to have invented clicker training between 1987-1992.
> 
> Except "Don't Shoot the Dog" came out in 1984...


He sourced the clickers that were passed out in seminars. He and Karen broke up the act over the 'bonker' according to Morgan Spector. Uh, what about Bob and Marian Bailey? I thought they were the first people to use the techniques after working with Skinner himself and Karen adapted the techniques to pets.

Guess Gary needs to look to some of the nice posters of dog expressions sometimes posted here.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Kathyy said:


> He sourced the clickers that were passed out in seminars. He and Karen broke up the act over the 'bonker' according to Morgan Spector. Uh, what about Bob and Marian Bailey? I thought they were the first people to use the techniques after working with Skinner himself and Karen adapted the techniques to pets.
> 
> Guess Gary needs to look to some of the nice posters of dog expressions sometimes posted here.


Even Karen doesn't claim to have invented clicker training. She's stated online and at Clicker Expo (apparently, I've never been) that other people were doing it well before she came along, notably Keller and Marion Breland.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Ugh. I wish I were more surprised than I am.

I think, too, that humans (esp. those who don't have a great grasp on how dogs think and understand the world) like to see evidence that the animal "knows what they did wrong". Never mind that what they're seeing is just a confused dog trying to avoid getting hit for - from their perspective - no reason at all. And never mind that guilt and shame is often counterproductive when teaching _humans_, even though we have big wrinkly brains and can understand consequences to actions better. Basically, those appeasement gestures become rewarding for the trainer because of how they choose to interpret them (through either genuine or willful ignorance), even though they're a sign that something is _very wrong_ with the training.

I also refuse to believe that a tightly rolled towel, smacked _on the face_ hard enough to make the sound it did, doesn't hurt. Bull manure.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

I have to wonder how many nice pet dogs this guy has (and his followers have) made into miserable robots for fear of getting something, ANYTHING, wrong. 

This "training" is just bullying nice dogs. 

If a dog had some age on it and some real fight drive, this guy would be in real trouble. 

You have to show them what is RIGHT and then be certain they KNOW what is right and can repeat the right thing in many situations before you can introduce anything about doing something WRONG. SMH


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

DaySleepers said:


> I also refuse to believe that a tightly rolled towel, smacked _on the face_ hard enough to make the sound it did, doesn't hurt. Bull manure.


Agreed, I think he's confusing "hurt" with "injurious".


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Probably coming from that outdated nonsense about how "dogs don't feel pain like we do".


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## arttrainer (Apr 12, 2017)

My jaw dropped and my stomach sank seeing this. Let him do that a dozen times to that dog and it will not try to climb in his lap. It will either run away from him or fight him. But of course he isn't going to do that repetitively in a training class. The owners are going to though and they will have to deal with the fallout and think they are doing it wrong.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

DaySleepers said:


> Probably coming from that outdated nonsense about how "dogs don't feel pain like we do".


Even if dogs feel pain differently than we do, discomfort is literally how it works. (Which I know you know DaySleepers but just.... Gah!)


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