# Barking and growling at other dogs?



## Ebba (May 2, 2010)

I have a three year old, medium sized mongrel, Athena, who has lived with my family all her life. She is playful and happy but recently she's taken to lunging, barking and growling at other dogs when we take her out for a walk.

I also have a half lab, half dalmation (Nia) that Athena gets along with well, but there have been cases of what we think is dominance aggression towards Nia. For example if Nia goes somewhere where she didn't get to go she starts growling at Nia, or if for example we clip Athena's nails she starts growling at Nia (as if to blame her?).

I think the problem is that we didn't have to opportunity to socialise Athena as a puppy because we lived in a country where there weren't really any other dogs around. We owned three other dogs when she was born, but I don't think that that was enough.

Whenever she sees another dog, even on the other side of the street, she will lunge and try to get to that dog. If we let her walk up to the dog she usually starts growling at it, or is scared of it. She seems fine (or at least better) with smaller dogs, it's the bigger dogs that she doesn't like. This happens on-leash, off leash she is more hesitant to go up to other dogs. This leads me to think that she is scared of them? Or just uncomfortable around them?

At dog parks where I can let her off leash she doesn't really growl, unless there are too many dogs around her and she feels surrounded. But I was out walking with her the other day (off leash) when a medium sized black dog was walking towards us with its owner on a bicycle. She ran up to it and they sniffed (ok up till now) but then she began to growl at it and seemed ready to attack. Luckily that dog ran away.

I don't know how to deal with her behaviour. I feel if I punish her every time she sees a dog and growls she will associate negative things with other dogs. But she is really hard to control when there are other dogs, she ends up completely focusing on them and shuts me/whoever is walking her out. I don't want to give her too many treats to distract her either, because I don't want to be rewarding her behaviour? 

Any tips? Sorry this post got a bit long ...


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

OMG you are the reason so many people hate dog parks. Im sorry but its true.

STOP GOING TO THE DOG PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!

KEEP HER ON LEASH!!!!!!!

Do not let her offleash. I dont understand why you would if she clearly doesnt want to be around other dogs. 

get a trainer, or find her a good home with responsible owners.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

Ebba said:


> I have a three year old, medium sized mongrel, Athena, who has lived with my family all her life. She is playful and happy but recently she's taken to lunging, barking and growling at other dogs when we take her out for a walk.
> 
> I also have a half lab, half dalmation (Nia) that Athena gets along with well, but there have been cases of what we think is dominance aggression towards Nia. For example if Nia goes somewhere where she didn't get to go she starts growling at Nia, or if for example we clip Athena's nails she starts growling at Nia (as if to blame her?).
> 
> ...


For starters... punishment has repercussions, and usually makes the situation worse.

Athena growls at Nina when she is upset with YOU. I found this out the hard way. The folks here on DogForums taught me what was going on. It's called "redirected aggression." Doggies have a bug in their operating system. When they cannot vent their aggression on the perceived wrong-doer, they will redirect the aggression to whomever is handy, in your case Nina. Athena knows not to bite (or growl at) the hand that feeds her, so Nina catches heck. Remove Nina from the area when you clip Athena's nails. Before you clip again, desensitize Athena by associating the nail clippers and the process with treats. I did that with cleaning tear stains from Zoot's face, and Dexter no longer pays the price. Zoot now looks forward to getting his face cleaned, and starts wagging his tail and licking his chops all Pavlov-like in anticipation of hot dog bits. Every evening for the last week or so, the dogs and I have been playing "The Buzzy Thing is Your Friend" with a hair clipper. I have yet to clip a dog hair with it.

When you let Nina go somewhere that Athena is not allowed to, I would try rewarding Athena BEFORE she acts up. Again, it's redirected aggression, so make Athena associate Nina going into forbidden zones with pleasure.

I am still dealing with leash-aggression. I think in my case (and yours) it is probably a manifestation of resource-guarding. No-one knows for sure what causes it. I think the dogs want to guard their meal-ticket and comfy-home provider (me) from other dogs. It's a tough one. We got blind-sided by the dread BBD (big black dog) again yesterday, and for the first time ever, the doggies did not want to go for a walk today.

I'm using techniques from a small book called _Feisty Fido_ that was recommended here. There's no quick fix. It's not an easy behavior to correct. You are right about one thing. If you punish the dogs for reacting to other dogs, it will make matters worse. They need to learn that other dogs are good news, not harbingers of punishment. Every time they react to another dog is a major setback in training them. As part of their training you can skulk outside the dog park entrance far enough away that they do not react, but keep them out of their red zone, and _always_ on leash. You must not let them get close enough to another dog that they might react. The goal is to gradually reduce the red zone to zero radius. Become an expert on detecting the early warning signals. Things can escalate very, very fast. It's all covered in _Feisty Fido._


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

P.s. I'm guessing that when your dog met the one with the bicycle rider and started the sniff introductions, she did not growl until you approached. Did I guess right?


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## Ebba (May 2, 2010)

Tankstar said:


> OMG you are the reason so many people hate dog parks. Im sorry but its true.
> 
> STOP GOING TO THE DOG PARK!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> ...



OK you obviously do not understand this situation. We moved two months ago from a country where she was completely isolated from other dogs (there were only street dogs around, and she stayed in the house/garden since we had high fences surrounding the whole place except for when we went to walk with her in the evenings which was difficult enough in itself without having to deal with meeting other dogs as she pulled so hard she started wheezing even though she was wearing a flat collar) to Stockholm where we are now living in a tiny appartement four storeys up and THERE IS NO PLACE WE CAN GO APART FROM THE PARK. And you seem to think that she terrorised the dog park and fights with all the dogs. NO that is not the case. She just growls at them if they get a little too close because she is uncertain as to how to deal with them. She obviously wants to play with them but is not sure how. 

And when we go off leash it's in a huge park where there is an area that you can let your dog run free in. She LOVES running around in the open, why should I deny her that?

And how dare you accuse me of being irresponsible? I have cared for and trained Athena since she was a puppy. In what way am I irresponsible? She has never actually bitten another dog before, so is it wrong to seek advice before she gets to that point? Are you suggesting that because I'm looking for help I am in some way 'irresponsible'? I get up at 4am and run down to the street (did I mention it's only about 5 degrees outside?) sometimes if one of them has diarrhea because I don't have a back yard I could just let them out into.

You know what? It's not that easy finding a trainer or dog classes either. We moved in January, and most dog courses had started for the semester already. There is no one we know that has a dog that we can use condition Athena to other dogs when walking. The time schedule is hectic, considering I have no free time during the week (school ends at 330 plus whatever homework/afterschool activity I have), we don't have any more holidays until the summer and we are moving appartements again in a few months.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

> She just growls at them if they get a little too close because she is uncertain as to how to deal with them.


Do you not relize that itself can cause alot of issues. one growling dog can start a chain reaction of bad behaviours with in the group and start pretty much a group mob attack.



> And when we go off leash it's in a huge park where there is an area that you can let your dog run free in. She LOVES running around in the open, why should I deny her that?


"She ran up to it and they sniffed (ok up till now) but then she began to growl at it and seemed ready to attack. Luckily that dog ran away."

Get a 50 foot leash. so you can for sure drag her back if she tries to run off at another dog. Your dog was ready to attack another dog. you did not have her leashed. did not have full control. so where is the responsibility?



> And how dare you accuse me of being irresponsible? I have cared for and trained Athena since she was a puppy. In what way am I irresponsible?


You have a dog who is very scared and unsure of herself and other dogs. She doesnt know how to approach them correctly. you take her to dog parks, and offleash where she growls at other dogs, does not listen to you and focuses soley ont he dogs. where is the responsiblity? NO dog should go to a dog park who growls at every dog and is ready to fight. NO dog should be offleash if you can not call them back to you. You have a untrained unsocialized dog. be responsible. and dont take her to dog parks until/if she ever becomes happy with other dogs around. Dont let her offleash until she has a solid recall, use a long line.




> The time schedule is hectic, considering I have no free time during the week (school ends at 330 plus whatever homework/afterschool activity I have),


Then maybe you are to busy for a dog. you either make time to train the dog, or keep going the path you are going down, where eventually your dog will attack and either kill or severly hurt another dog. Or find this dog a new home.

In winter, every winter. I work 3 jobs, yet I still make damn sure my dog gets out for atleast a hour walk a day, Id prefer atleast 2 hours, but we make due. its dark here all winter by 4pm. its hard to do, but I do it. as it HAS to be done. find time, wake up earlier, go for a 30 min walk, after school, put your stuff down and do a quick 20 mins walk, after you activities grab her leash at night and do another 20 mins walk. easy.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

There have been some pretty significant changes in your dog's life. This in ITSELF is stressful and stress can cause some pretty extensive behaviour changes in a dog. 

I agree with Tankstar for the most part. Bringing a stressed, undersocialized dog to an off leash park is a dangerous thing, for her and for other dogs. It can be overwhelmingly stressful. Stressed dogs are unpredictable and stress is "contagious". 

It is also possible, that the timing of the move and stress involved in that are covering a health issue as well. Any change of behaviour in an adult dog would make me suspicious of health issues. You may want to have a physical and thyroid testing done on your dog to ensure you do not have two issues going on rather than simply the stress of being undersocialized.

A good trainer can help. There are LOTS of good books dealing with dog reactivity and fear based behaviours. Check out www.fearfuldogs.com for tips on desensitizing and counter conditioning for fearful dogs.


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## Ebba (May 2, 2010)

Yes, I get the points that Tankstar is making and I think they are valid but rather than helping I feel he/she is attacking me. I came to this forum to find a solution to the problem, and all I am getting from him/her is that I should give up my dog, totally isolate her from other dogs, be more responsible and find a personal trainer.

Anyway, what I'm trying now is that when I am out walking (which by the way I do the moment I get home for about an hour) I try to catch Athena's attention BEFORE she gets too...obsessed with the other dog: say it is still across the street because at this point she still responds. So I distract her with treats, get her to sit and stay until the dog passes. This works quite well as long as I have a steady supply of treats with me. 

As for finding a trainer we are stearching for trainers/training classes to help her socialise better.


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## ecodogboutique (Apr 22, 2010)

Hi Ebba,

I'm sorry you're not getting the advice that you're looking for but we are all here to help....

Perhaps Athena has had bad experiences that make this behavior understandable. Yet it's embarrassing and raises concerns that Athena will injure a person or another dog. 

Have your veterinarian check for illness or injury? That is often at the root of aggressive behavior

Dogs have a survival instinct to hide their pain. Aggression is often the first and sometimes the only change in behavior from pain, as the dog acts to ward off approaches and touches that the dog has learned will hurt. Even the most experienced dog handler can be fooled, so don't be quick to rule out pain as a possibility. 

Not all dogs have the genetic make up to socialize peacefully with other dogs as they mature past puppyhood. 

Dogs frightened by encounters with other dogs in public often become aggressive to other dogs on outings. The dog who always wins encounters with other dogs can develop an aggression problem, too, perhaps connected with the adrenaline rush of the fight.

Ask your veterinarian to recommend one who can meet with you and Athena, evaluate the situation, and prescribe treatment. A veterinary behavior specialist is the board-certified expert who can evaluate and treat medical as well as other causes of aggression. 

The behavior specialist can fit your dog with a muzzle and teach you how to use it safely and effectively. You will then have excellent control of the Athena's mouth, and a greatly increased ability to keep other dogs and people safe in her presence.

Either a head halter or a muzzle also helps get other people to remember to keep their dogs out of your dog's face. 

Genetic temperament, experiences, and of course the skill and commitment of the handler will determine Athena's chances of improvement. Some dogs will never be safe to take out in public. 

I realize it's not the best of news, but it's helpful news and I hope this at least gives you some guidance on how to handle Athena.

Marsha


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## Ebba (May 2, 2010)

I think the problem is down to the fact(s) that:
1) She was a single puppy in her litter, so she didn't have puppy playmates
2) Her mother disappeared when she was 4 months
3) The only other dogs around was a male dog (who wasn't around the house much) and an older female dog (due to the fact that other dogs were generally street dogs that our dogs chased away. You see we lived on an island, and our house was surrounded by jungle so it was impossible to build a fence around our property, and our three dogs ran free)
4) She was paralysed when she was 3 months in her back legs because of worms, and it took her a while to start confidently walking and running again (and yes, she didn't have worm treatement before that because there were no vets on the island, we gave her human worm medicine as a last resort when she was sick)
So she never really learned to socialize.


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## ecodogboutique (Apr 22, 2010)

You could try to attend obedience classes with her. Also, I always stick with setting up "chance meetings" with a neighbor or a friend who has a dog while you are walking her. As the other dog approaches, I would have both dogs commanded to sit. (the sit command well-learned with no tolerance for disobedience is a great tool and works extremely well with my dog Gretchen who always gets a little rowdy around other dogs) I would then actually drop the leashes (I would use long leashes for this exercise) and give them the command 'Okay! Go play!' and just let them sort it out for themselves.

If either dog becomes aggressive, you have the leashes available to control it, but I would only use them if there is true violence. Often dogs meeting each other and trying to establish some kind of dominance will make lots of noise, but usually it results in play.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I have a dog, Kaya, with some of the same problems. She was a stray in rural area.

You need to be very careful, and I would not take this dog to a dog park unless under certain circumstances. You need to desensitize the dog, without too much pressure at once, and slowly adding more over months so it can learn to not fear other dogs.

I would not take her into a dog park where there was more than one dog inside, and leave if a couple of more dogs show up.

First she wanted to guard me from other dogs. That was easy to fix by pushing her back behind me, or tying her leash to something, so she was not face to face with the dog, and me greeting and petting and giving treats to the strange dog. 

Always praise for any good behavior, if she doesn't growl, praise her. if se shows a better reaction, praise her.

That was simple and took only a few times for her learn that I decide what dogs approach me and what dogs do not.


Second is fear of other dogs. Kaya is unsure and afraid, she is thinking she may need to strike first before the other dog gets a chance. I have approached this in three ways.

Don't allow her into a situation where she will feel enough pressure to do more than growl, you do not want her to strike, do not make things worse.

I do not put her in a situation where she will have more than one dog getting into her personal space at a time like a dog park that is way too much pressure from what you wrote. I do not put her in situations with several loose dogs all around her, so she feels surrounded. It helps nothing and can create monster.

Start with minimal pressure, and let her get used to it, slowly increase pressure in a controlled way. 

Try to find her a few good calm friendly single dogs to meet while walking, talk to the other owners who you see regularly and ask for their help, be outgoing and talk to them, especially if one of these dogs is a nice calm friendly dog. 

Walk with that dog and owner side by side for blocks, at whatever distance your dog is comfortable with, let your dog learn there is no threat and walk with that dog as regularly as possible. Let the other dog greet any new dogs walking by first, so your dog can watch and learn, then greet second. Your dog can see how to greet, and can greet second knowing both that the strange dog didn't attack, and having the confidence of a having a trusted dog, a packmate, with her.

The right obedience class can help tons. The one I use is outdoors, and dogs are kept in a sit/stay on raised platforms about 6 feet apart most of the class. That gets her used to other dogs all around her, but they are not interacting, not "invading her space". After weeks she started feeling less and less pressured from this.

She gets to do an exercise walking between the platforms. Basically walking between two dogs on platforms where both will be in her personal space. We do a weave between each pair of platforms, so she walks through each dogs personal space, two at a time. But the dogs are controlled in a sit/stay. As soon as she recovers herself from walking between two, we walk between the next two. I don't give her time to greet, to sniff, just move on through, praise for doing well without fear or bad reaction.

Then each other dogs does this, so every dog in class walks through her personal space while she is in a sit/stay on her platform. I am standing with her, and praise for any improved reaction.

All this has helped a lot. It is a very long process but she now no longer growls at one or two dogs getting in her space, her face. She has a long way to go yet, but after a few months she now actually will let down her guard and play a little with another dog.

So you might want to find an obedience class, talk to the trainer about your issues, and see what they are willing to do about desensitizing and helping your dog learn to cope.

Basically you need help, this is a tough situation to try to fix by yourself. You need other people and planned controlled working around other dogs. A professional to help would be best. 

The redirected aggression I would follow advice given above.

Sorry that you do not have a lot of free time, but you need to make that free time for your dog's sake. You need to learn to read her well and work on this, it can take a long time and your dog is suffering until you help her.


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## Ebba (May 2, 2010)

Hey! This is exactly what I'm looking for. Thank you so much 
I'll try what you have said and see how it works out.
I'm not taking her to the dog park much anymore, only going in if there is only one dog or a dog I know she gets along with. 
Some dogs she is completely fine with, for example the dog who lives two floors under us. She loves that dog! She'll whine and pull even if he is across the street.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

I have two doggies that were strays when I adopted them about three months ago. They used to go ballistic when they were on leash and another dog came within 50 feet. One seems to be just about cured, and the other is much better. I've mostly been using the methods in _Feisty Fido._

There is one thing that I was doing wrong. Maybe this is in _Feisty Fido_, and I just missed it. If there's a mishap - maybe we get surprised on a neighborhood walk - and one of them reacts badly, give the praise and treats as soon as the animal settles down, despite the unwanted behavior. What you are aiming for is a conditioned emotional response, not a specific behavior to be reinforced. You (meaning "I") want the dogs to associate the presence of other dogs with security and comfort. Once they learn that I will protect them, that the other dog will not run off with their meal-ticket (me), and that the presence of other dogs means treats and good times are coming, the battle is won. 

Of course it does no good to try to give treats while the dog is agitated. One tries never to let it get to that point. But mistakes happen. At least to me they have. When they do, it's not good to pull the dog away and head straight to the house. That associates other dogs with the fun being over. The point is not to try to teach the dog to reason, "IF there's another dog, THEN IF I do not react, THEN I will get a treat, ELSE I will have to go home." Instead teach, "Other dog, good."

Another great idea is to condition the dog to LIKE being gently pulled away. I changed the way I train for the_ Feisty Fido_ "emergency 180". I give the dog a tug, as it would give itself when lunging, as I say "Let's go," reverse directions, click and treat. Not harsh, but unmistakably a tug. I think I got that idea from kikopup on Youtube. She's great.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Yup it's mentally hard sometimes for people to reward a dog with a treat or praise only second after the dog was doing something wrong.

But the thing is the second the dog stops doing something wrong, it is then doing something right, doing what you want, and made the choice to stop doign wrong and do right, and you need to instantly reward that choice, reinforce that response.

If you correct a dog, or interrupt a dog, or divert the dogs attention when it's doing something you don't want, and don't then praise the dog the second it changes it's behavior from bad to good, but keep on scolding even for a minute, your working against yourself and punishing the dog for making a good decision and confusing it.

I watch the choices Kaya makes very closely when she is around other dogs and people, and always give a "good girl" or a scrtich, or a treat as appropriate for correct reactions and decisions right when they happen so it is clear, and even mark some with a marker word "yes!" right when she makes the correct choice.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

TxRider said:


> Yup it's mentally hard sometimes for people to reward a dog with a treat or praise only second after the dog was doing something wrong.
> 
> But the thing is the second the dog stops doing something wrong, it is then doing something right, doing what you want, and made the choice to stop doign wrong and do right, and you need to instantly reward that choice, reinforce that response.
> 
> ...


The way I am looking at it now, I am not giving a reward for desirable behavior, but rather conditioning a positive emotional response to the presence of other dogs. Think Pavlov, not Skinner. If I could give the dog praise and a treats while it was misbehaving, I might. But at that point the dog cannot learn anything - neither "Other dog, good," nor "I snarl and lunge, get reward." My dogs would not have even noticed praise or a reward at that point.

In practice, it might come to the same thing, but thinking of it as Pavlovian helps me keep focused on the goal, which is not to teach the dog to repress aggression, but rather to condition it not to feel aggressive in the first place.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

JiveDadson said:


> The way I am looking at it now, I am not giving a reward for desirable behavior, but rather conditioning a positive emotional response to the presence of other dogs. Think Pavlov, not Skinner. If I could give the dog praise and a treats while it was misbehaving, I might. But at that point the dog cannot learn anything - neither "Other dog, good," nor "I snarl and lunge, get reward." My dogs would not have even noticed praise or a reward at that point.
> 
> In practice, it might come to the same thing, but thinking of it as Pavlovian helps me keep focused on the goal, which is not to teach the dog to repress aggression, but rather to condition it not to feel aggressive in the first place.


I guess I look at both a pavlovian aspect, and a skinner aspect, depending on the situation whether it is unconscious reaction or choice.

Her feelings or her emotions around dogs is not a conscious choice she can really make I don't think. That's where Pavlov comes in. Desensitization and classical conditioning to alter her emotional response to a stimulus.

Her behavioral response to that internal feeling/emotion though sometimes is a choice she can make, and that's where skinner and reinforcement comes in to reward good choices/responses.

For me anyway, if that makes sense.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Fiesty Fido is a great little booklet.

If I am guessing correctly the OP is in Stockholm, Sweden. Not the US. 

My dog was very well socialized. And has Barrier Frustration. When walking her on a leash and she sees another dog her hackles raise up and she growls and barks at other dogs, but then wiggles her entire body (has a docked tail) when the other dog gets closer. But she continues to vocalize. She does well in the, what 5 or 6 classes that we've taken in the past year, does well at doggie daycare and the boarding kennel. She plays well with all sorts of dogs and adjusts her play style to suit the other dogs' needs. ie plays gentle with the submissive dogs, rougher with the big athletic dogs and etc. She doens't have dog aggression but I pay attention and try to prevent dog aggression from becoming a problem.... 

I don't know is anyone else mentioned this but when you Have to pass another dog being walked towards you, try to curve away from the other dog on a bending arch... do not walk your dog in a straight line towards the other dog. Arch away from them. 2 strange dogs walking straight towards each other can be an aggressive display. Arch away from the other dog.


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