# Communication with breeders? Help please



## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

A few weeks ago I made a puppy deposit for a Tamaskan to one of the two registered breeders in America. I am not a first time dog owner and this would be my fourth time owning a dog BUT it IS my first time ever getting a dog from a breeder as all my dogs have all been from shelters. 

Is it common for breeders to not answer e-mails? I talked to this particular person's father (who is part of the breeding process) on phone prior to my deposit twice and then sent an e-mail with questions that went unanswered. Talked on the phoned again this time with the daughter and main breeder who curtly told me she'd answer my e-mails but still no luck. Talked on the phone a fourth time with the father and he told me they got like 50 e-mails a day and he'd make sure his daughter would get to mine on that specific day and even sent met three test e-mails to make sure he had my address right. Still nothing.

Is this normal with breeders? I am honestly completely new to the world of breeders so I am very much clueless to it all. Should I let this slide or do something about this? I feel like I'd be pestering them a LOT by calling them again for the fifth or so time but it is a new family member that is supposed to arrive in about three months from what they've told me so constant communication is key, right? Or am I going about this the wrong way?


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## Caro (Sep 10, 2012)

I don't have a lot of breeder experience.

However, you actually paid a deposit to the breeder. You are not someone who just wants to ask a million questions & waste their time. I think anyone who has a deposit on a puppy (or has a puppy) should be a higher priority response. 

If the puppy is not expected home for 3 months, then it does not sound like it is due to a recent birth.

I would call & ask what the preferred method for questions are. Maybe they would prefer to just schedule a time to answer the questions over the phone. Some people are not comfortable with email or get overwhelming numbers of email. As long as you get a response (phone or email), I think it is reasonable.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Yeah, they don't have my puppy yet as I'm on a waiting list but they told me a new litter is coming up really soon and I'll get to pick one soon, so I'm being a bit overzealous in trying to establish steady communication with the breeders while at the same time trying not to pester them too much. I have no idea how much contact with breeders is good etiquette and what my expectations in terms of communication with them should be.


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## Max and Me (Aug 19, 2011)

I have contacted several breeders inquiring about puppies and for the most part received responses within a reasonable amount of time. I have only bought 1 puppy from a breeder and she has answered any questions no matter how small or trivial promptly.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

... Are the deposits refundable?

I'm guessing since you said "one of two" breeders in the US, that you went with Blustag or Ratliff... Did you research them before hand? There are more than two Tamaskan breeders in the US, the TCA only has two breeders for a reason... Other Tamaskan breeders can be found here: Tamaskan Dog Register


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I see a red flag....hope you don't lose your deposit.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

InkedMarie said:


> I see a red flag....hope you don't lose your deposit.


Yup, me too. An e-mail going unanswered is perhaps okay, but repeatedly calling and asking for answers to your questions without getting a response... I'd be upset.

I'm in the process of buying a Great Dane puppy and the breeder answers my e-mails within 12 hours and texts me photos of my puppy every Wednesday. She says I can feel free to call her at any time and she will answer or return my call the same day. 

The litter is on the ground, 10 puppies, and she is helping to raise 9 grandchildren under the age of 9. She owns 5 adult Great Danes and 4 Boxers. If she has time to answer me within 24 hours, I really can't imagine any circumstances under which a breeder couldn't do the same for you.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

breeders are as varied as, say, car mechanics. There are some good ones who play fair and square and know what they're doing. Some of the good ones may be grumpy and not real good at dealing with the public. There are some that think they know more than they do. There are some who advertse and don't deliver. There are some absolute scum bags. . . . maybe even a few criminals. You have to research your breeder.


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## Hermes1 (Jan 3, 2014)

InkedMarie said:


> I see a red flag....hope you don't lose your deposit.


I also see a red flag. Responsible breeders will and should respond to e-mails within a reasonable amount of time, deposit or no deposit.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

I would say constant communication would be a bit extreme, there's only so much that can be discussed and they are running a business and may be a bit annoyed, especially if they already covered your questions. But a email response for anything not covered would be appropriate.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I would be concerned too. My breeder now gets back to me within 24 hours. My most recent question, was what puppy food did she recomend. Not a pressing question, but there was response waiting for me the next morning. The litter is also not on the ground yet. 

I don't think it matters, deposit, no deposit, future litter or on the ground now. You are the future owner of one of their babies and should make the time to answer your questions.

And sandgrubber is right, all breeders are different. Our sheltie breeder was an instant reply, with a story on top. She even taught me about lines and how to read them, just for the hell of it. Royce's breeder, answered questions. The end. My breeder now answers question, and then a little add on. Common thing between them though, they all replied and answered questions. Not every breeder has to be your pen pal, but they should be responding.


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## nadia (Aug 19, 2015)

I lost my job unexpectedly and didn't feel I could commit to a puppy at the time. I was getting prepared to pay 1000 dollars for an Aussie. I put down a 200 dollar "refundable" deposit. I specifically decided not to choose someone who had a non refundable deposit because I wanted the option to change my mind. She decided to change her policy when I requested the 200 back and said her policy was changing and deposits were now non refundable. Therefore, I lost 200 in the process. So I have experienced horrible breeder experiences and this sounds like a red flag

First, will they answer your questions over the phone?

Three months is soon enough that there should be a birth date and you should be getting updates on a coming home date and a date of birth as well as a date you can choose your puppy. We're any of these spoken of, or is it just "soon"?

Is the deposit stated as "refundable"?

I'd be careful :/ when looking for an Aussie before I obtained Cosmo I put up some ads and people tried to scam me left and right, saying they'd send me the puppy to my doorstep with some kind of fake service or I could pick the puppy up at an airport, and I just had to send them money through PayPal.

Sounds like some red flags in your situation, but it's also really good that they're returning your calls and speaking to you over the phone. You have a phone number and a way of tracking him down which most scammers won't give out. Do you have an address? If possible I would visit and look at the parents. This is something good breeders SHOULD allow you to do.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> ... Are the deposits refundable?
> 
> I'm guessing since you said "one of two" breeders in the US, that you went with Blustag or Ratliff... Did you research them before hand? There are more than two Tamaskan breeders in the US, the TCA only has two breeders for a reason... Other Tamaskan breeders can be found here: Tamaskan Dog Register


Yeah, I went with Blustag. My dad and I did as much research as we thought was necessary on them and they seemed trustworthy but since we are so inexperienced with breeders maybe we should have done something differently, I'm not sure.
We talked to the father of the two on phone before depositing and although he was a bit short in his answers he answered all our questions there and so we made a deposit. The deposits are not refundable once made which we werw fine with.

My emails sent to them have questions to them about any health issues I should watch out for when my Tamaskan grows up as there doesn't seem to be too much information on that out there and other health related topics. I thought those would be better to cover in written format but I have not gotten a reply.

I don't intend to bash these breeders at all as they might have perfectly valid reasons for not replying but as I've never dealt with a breeder before, i really wanted to know if this was the norm or if I should be worried. What should I do about this? I certainly don't want to be THAT person constantly pestering them if this is normal but at the same time I would ideally like to have steady communication like many of you seemed to have with your breeders.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

IME, it's not uncommon for breeders to not answer emails or be short on communication. I decided that I didn't want to get a pup from someone who wouldn't communicate with me in a timely manner and answer my questions. I'm in a rare breed and I was able to find breeders who communicated better, but your breed is even more rare and you don't have a lot of options.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> IME, it's not uncommon for breeders to not answer emails or be short on communication. I decided that I didn't want to get a pup from someone who wouldn't communicate with me in a timely manner and answer my questions. I'm in a rare breed and I was able to find breeders who communicated better, but your breed is even more rare and you don't have a lot of options.


I had two breeders who just didn't communicate....emails/fb msgs to one went either unanswered or they responded, with an application but answered no questions. It's a shame, one lives an hour away, other had 2 available pups a couple weeks ago but I'm waiting. How do I know they'd be responsive after I got a puppy from them?


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## nadia (Aug 19, 2015)

I hadn't looked at the website before but being one of only two tamaskan breeders in america I'm betting they're legit. They pop up first on Google, they seem to be very busy, and they have a litter of available puppies they're probably caring for. They have lots of good reviews and letters from past owners on their site and they seem to put a lot of work into their site. They have a lot of pictures that aren't found anywhere else on the Internet which means that they took the photos, meaning they own all of those puppies and dogs. They also give about 20 pictures per puppy so that's an excellent sign. All of their puppies seem in good shape and their adults seem very healthy.

They're probably busy, they likely have very high demand and a lot of emails. I wouldn't be too alarmed, and I'm sure they'll answer you when they can. I'd try getting some important questions answered over the phone, but in the meantime I feel you have nothing to worry about!


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

nadia said:


> I hadn't looked at the website before but being one of only two tamaskan breeders in america I'm betting they're legit. They pop up first on Google, they seem to be very busy, and they have a litter of available puppies they're probably caring for. They have lots of good reviews and letters from past owners on their site and they seem to put a lot of work into their site. They have a lot of pictures that aren't found anywhere else on the Internet which means that they took the photos, meaning they own all of those puppies and dogs. They also give about 20 pictures per puppy so that's an excellent sign. All of their puppies seem in good shape and their adults seem very healthy.
> 
> They're probably busy, they likely have very high demand and a lot of emails. I wouldn't be too alarmed, and I'm sure they'll answer you when they can. I'd try getting some important questions answered over the phone, but in the meantime I feel you have nothing to worry about!


Oh thank you! This does put my mind much more at ease, thank you! They did seem quite trustworthy when we looked them up so I'm glad it seems we made the right choice! I'll just be patient and wait some more then.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The breeder I got my Alaskan Klee Kai from (who lives quite far away from me) is not big on emailing. She'd reply to my questions, but it sometimes took a couple of days and the response would only be three sentences long. However, she answered every question I had when we spoke on the phone, and I knew she was reputable because I spoke to a couple of different puppy buyers who had visited her in person (one of whom is now also an AKK breeder who she ended up mentoring). She also owns a business (retail, unrelated to dogs), so she's a busy woman. Your breeders are probably busy, probably get a lot of emails and phone calls, and probably would rather speak to you about specifics once the pups are born and they know for sure that you're getting one from this upcoming litter. Sit tight and wait til the pups are born!

I hope you will stick around here and post photos of your pup once you get it!


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Honestly, just based off their websites, there are so many red flags that I would have to meet the breeder in person and get my hands on their dogs before I would consider either one. You've already paid a non refundable deposit, so what's done is done. Unfortunately your breeder choices are very limited because the breed is so "rare". But you've paid a significant amount of money they should be able to give even a simple response to your basic questions. I hope it works out for you.


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## nadia (Aug 19, 2015)

animalcraker said:


> Honestly, just based off their websites, there are so many red flags that I would have to meet the breeder in person and get my hands on their dogs before I would consider either one. You've already paid a non refundable deposit, so what's done is done. Unfortunately your breeder choices are very limited because the breed is so "rare". But you've paid a significant amount of money they should be able to give even a simple response to your basic questions. I hope it works out for you.


I'm confused, what red flags do you see?


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

animalcraker said:


> Honestly, just based off their websites, there are so many red flags that I would have to meet the breeder in person and get my hands on their dogs before I would consider either one. You've already paid a non refundable deposit, so what's done is done. Unfortunately your breeder choices are very limited because the breed is so "rare". But you've paid a significant amount of money they should be able to give even a simple response to your basic questions. I hope it works out for you.


There's many red flags on the website? What are they? I thought the website made them seem very trustworthy but I'd love to hear your opinion.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Melgogs said:


> Yeah, I went with Blustag. My dad and I did as much research as we thought was necessary on them and they seemed trustworthy but since we are so inexperienced with breeders maybe we should have done something differently, I'm not sure.
> We talked to the father of the two on phone before depositing and although he was a bit short in his answers he answered all our questions there and so we made a deposit. The deposits are not refundable once made which we werw fine with.
> 
> My emails sent to them have questions to them about any health issues I should watch out for when my Tamaskan grows up as there doesn't seem to be too much information on that out there and other health related topics. I thought those would be better to cover in written format but I have not gotten a reply.
> ...


Unfortunately, you may find you won't be too thrilled with this experience. Blustag and Ratliff don't have very good reputations. Blustag is a mill that has changed its name a couple times (it used to be Right Puppy Kennel and a couple other names) and is now named after the kennel in the UK (but it is not the same kennel, nor are they affiliated with them. The original Blustag kennels in the UK actually have a warning disclaimer about them on their site.) Google "Blustag Puppy Mills" and "Tamaskan Dog Neko"

Blustag (usa) takes credit cards for their deposit right? Is that how you paid?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Ah, yeah, I was looking at the Blustag site from the UK, not the unaffiliated US site. These are red flags to me: there's no puppy application, and anyone who puts down a $500 non-refundable deposit is guaranteed a puppy; buyers get to choose their pup based on looks alone (when the pups are three weeks old) instead of the breeder matching each pup to a suitable home; there's no altered vs. breeding contract, so anyone who wants to breed their Tamaskan can (and "no guarantee is made as to disposition, conformation, size, weight, color, markings or breeding ability"); they use the dreaded "champion lines" term (even two champion dogs will produce some pups that are unsuitable for breeding, so the fact that a dog has champions somewhere in its ancestry is irrelevant -- only whether or not _that breeding dog itself_ is a champion matters).

Also, they charge $20 to send along a blanket with the mother's scent? The breeders I know include that (and more) for free.

The only thing I like is that they do OFA/CERF and they DNA test their dogs.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

Melgogs said:


> Yeah, I went with Blustag. My dad and I did as much research as we thought was necessary on them and they seemed trustworthy but since we are so inexperienced with breeders maybe we should have done something differently, I'm not sure.
> We talked to the father of the two on phone before depositing and although he was a bit short in his answers he answered all our questions there and so we made a deposit. The deposits are not refundable once made which we werw fine with.
> 
> My emails sent to them have questions to them about any health issues I should watch out for when my Tamaskan grows up as there doesn't seem to be too much information on that out there and other health related topics. I thought those would be better to cover in written format but I have not gotten a reply.
> ...


Steady communication? I think you need more than a breeder. Shouldn't you research the breed first instead of making a non-refundable deposit and demanding constant attention?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't really buy the whole "breeders are so busy raising their puppies and going to dog shows that they don't have time to answer emails". I get hundreds of emails every day at work and I manage to read them all and respond when necessary. I think some people are just really poor email communicators and there's no excuse other than the fact that they forget to answer their email. If you are selling puppies for >$1k, whether you make a profit or not it's a business and I think breeders should approach it like a business. You wouldn't have a business and then not answer customer emails and questions (some people do run businesses like this, and it makes me just as annoyed).


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

If you answer hundreds of emails per day, it's obviously your job. Nobody can do that and run a business at the same time. If someone needs that level of communication they should find a company with a dedicated customer service department.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Waggintails said:


> If you answer hundreds of emails per day, it's obviously your job. Nobody can do that and run a business at the same time. If someone needs that level of communication they should find a company with a dedicated customer service department.


My job is not answering emails, actually. I do real work, and the emails are a means of communicating with others about the work we're doing. It's really not that hard. I don't see why breeders can't have a life and also answer some emails from people who are buying puppies from them.


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## Waggintails (Jan 13, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> My job is not answering emails, actually. I do real work, and the emails are a means of communicating with others about the work we're doing. It's really not that hard. I don't see why breeders can't have a life and also answer some emails from people who are buying puppies from them.


Well, the questions may have already been answered. The problem seems to be she wants a steady line of communication. And there's no way someone can answer hundreds of emails a day and do much of anything else. We are all human.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Waggintails said:


> Well, the questions may have already been answered. The problem seems to be she wants a steady line of communication. And there's no way someone can answer hundreds of emails a day and do much of anything else. We are all human.


It's not hundreds of emails a day. It's a couple emails with legit questions about health concerns from someone who is buying one of their puppies. OP is not being unreasonable in wanting the breeder to respond to a couple questions.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Is this dog going to be for you or your dad - didn't you mention moving in with your boyfriend soon? May I ask what made you decide on this specific breed?


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The only thing I like is that they do OFA/CERF and they DNA test their dogs.


Actually I don't think they do, despite their claim otherwise. It appears, they're taking advantage of the Blustag name to make it look as they do. That, or they're not allowing tests results to be publicly listed, which would be odd since they specifically link to OFFA and state its a searchable database. But of the "Blustag" dogs whose results are listed, they are almost all Blustag UK dogs. Sanuye, Chaska, Icefire, Bearberry, River Jordan, Lapis Lazuli, Blue Gem, Mountain Holly, ect... Are all Blustag UK dogs... Sanuye, Chaska and Icefire are current Blustag UK breeding dogs (Bodie, Ollie and JJ). The other dogs are their full & half siblings... 

I'm willing to bet the other dogs are probably Blustag UK dogs also. Even if they're not... This is a breeder that guarantees a pup for any and all who put down a deposit, a high volume breeder with 18 disclosed adult breeding dogs... There are only 16 dogs listed on OFFA and of those at least 8 are UK dogs and the most recent tests were in 2013... So they're apparently not testing all their breeding dogs... And if they are, they're not disclosing the results... In which case the claim isn't worth crud.

ETA: Apparently they do have 6 dogs with some testing done under the "Right Puppy" Kennel name, rather than the Blustag kennel name. Again, most recent tests are 2013 and they don't appear to match up with the adult dogs on the site.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> Unfortunately, you may find you won't be too thrilled with this experience. Blustag and Ratliff don't have very good reputations. Blustag is a mill that has changed its name a couple times (it used to be Right Puppy Kennel and a couple other names) and is now named after the kennel in the UK (but it is not the same kennel, nor are they affiliated with them. The original Blustag kennels in the UK actually have a warning disclaimer about them on their site.) Google "Blustag Puppy Mills" and "Tamaskan Dog Neko"
> 
> Blustag (usa) takes credit cards for their deposit right? Is that how you paid?


Dammnit, now I feel like such a fool. Now I understand why I kept getting mentions to the uk in my search results for Blustag. So I basically made a deposit to a puppy mill, ugh. Yes, they take credit cards. Ugh, I'm such an idiot, this is awful. I thought the fact the deposit was non-refundable was so that only very committed people would buy from them. Does this mean I'll be getting a sick puppy from an abused mother? I should have posted here before deciding on a Tamaskan breeder.

Why does the Tamaskan club of america have a puppy mill as a registered breeder?


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> Is this dog going to be for you or your dad - didn't you mention moving in with your boyfriend soon? May I ask what made you decide on this specific breed?


The move with the boyfriend has been indefinetly postponed - in fact we might break up if certain things don't go as planned for him in America but that's a whole other story.

The dog is for me and I've been wanting to get a larger dog for awhile, like a german sheperd. A person posted about Tamaskans in a chihuahua forum and it was pretty much love at first sight, I found them to be very beautiful dogs and after reading about their laid-back temperaments and friendliness I thought I'd love to own one. It seems I've made a HUGE mistake in choosing the breeder however, I don't know how I'll forgive myself for this.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Did you use your credit card? You might be able to dispute the charges if they won't refund.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Melgogs said:


> The move with the boyfriend has been indefinetly postponed - in fact we might break up if certain things don't go as planned for him in America but that's a whole other story.
> 
> The dog is for me and I've been wanting to get a larger dog for awhile, like a german sheperd. A person posted about Tamaskans in a chihuahua forum and it was pretty much love at first sight, I found them to be very beautiful dogs and after reading about their laid-back temperaments and friendliness I thought I'd love to own one. It seems I've made a HUGE mistake in choosing the breeder however, I don't know how I'll forgive myself for this.


Not quite sure where you read about their "laid-back" temperaments, but anything that is a mix of a Husky/GSD/Malamute is most likely NOT going to be laid back. In fact, everything I have read indicated that they are an athletic, intelligent breed that requires quite a bit of physical and mental exercise, just like a GSD or Husky would.

I think it would probably be best for you to contact your credit card company and open up a dispute with Blustag. Fill out whatever paperwork you must with your CC company, and indicate that Blustag improperly advertises and lies about the dogs they produce and that you were mislead into making your purchase. 

Then, I'd also recommend that you do some actual research about this breed. I know you have a Chihuahua you're having a few problems with, and it sounds like you're slightly unprepared for a Tamaskan and the time/dedication it would take to own one.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Melgogs said:


> Dammnit, now I feel like such a fool. Now I understand why I kept getting mentions to the uk in my search results for Blustag. So I basically made a deposit to a puppy mill, ugh. Yes, they take credit cards. Ugh, I'm such an idiot, this is awful. I thought the fact the deposit was non-refundable was so that only very committed people would buy from them. Does this mean I'll be getting a sick puppy from an abused mother? I should have posted here before deciding on a Tamaskan breeder.
> 
> Why does the Tamaskan club of america have a puppy mill as a registered breeder?


You're not a fool at all. This type of mix up is exactly why they chose the name they did. Even Crantastic, who isn't unfamiliar with looking at breeder pages, didn't catch the difference between the two kennels right off. When I first researched, it took me a bit to realize I was reading info on two different kennels too. That is what they aimed for. Most people that read this thread and started looking, probably saw the same review for Blustag UK that you did, saw the Blustag UK page and read history on the breed mentioning Blustag (UK) as one of the four original breeders... And didn't realize Its two different Blustag kennels. That is why they chose that name.

Its not a guarantee of a sick dog from an abused mother. But it is a guarantee of supporting an unethical breeder. Which does increase your odds of health & temperament issues. 

If you would prefer to try with a different breeder, I would ask for a refund on the grounds that you're no longer comfortable with the transaction, also ask for the health results (copies of the results, not just what the results are claimed to be) for the parents of the specific litter the pup is supposed to come from. If they refuse, you can try to file a chargeback since you've not yet received any "product" and the service is not what you were led to believe you were getting.

The Tamaskan Club of America has them listed as a breeder, because they're the ones who created the Tamaskan Club of America because the Tamaskan Dog Register wouldn't register their dogs.... The other breeder listed on TCA is only there because their foundation dogs came from Blustag usa. They had to create their own registry, to put papers on their dogs. Thats why their "International Registry" only has two breeders, both of which are in the US.

The other US breeders register with the Tamaskan Dog Register. There are actually quite a few Tamaskan breeders in the USA.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Some more reviews for Right Puppy Kennels (Blustag kennels / Yadkin Wolfdogs / ect)


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> You're not a fool at all. This type of mix up is exactly why they chose the name they did. Even Crantastic, who isn't unfamiliar with looking at breeder pages, didn't catch the difference between the two kennels right off. When I first researched, it took me a bit to realize I was reading info on two different kennels too. That is what they aimed for. Most people that read this thread and started looking, probably saw the same review for Blustag UK that you did, saw the Blustag UK page and read history on the breed mentioning Blustag (UK) as one of the four original breeders... And didn't realize Its two different Blustag kennels. That is why they chose that name.
> 
> Its not a guarantee of a sick dog from an abused mother. But it is a guarantee of supporting an unethical breeder. Which does increase your odds of health & temperament issues.
> 
> ...


This is absolutely disgusting. The lenghts they go to deceive people is horrendous. I'm gonna do everything I can to get a refund and I'd also like to do something to get back at these people. What they're doing is just awful and needs to be stopped.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Melgogs said:


> This is absolutely disgusting. The lenghts they go to deceive people is horrendous. I'm gonna do everything I can to get a refund and I'd also like to do something to get back at these people. What they're doing is just awful and needs to be stopped.


Unfortunately, based on what I've read they've already gone through a couple civil suits that barely put a dent in their practices.

The best thing you could do to get back at them, is simply get your refund and not buy a dog from them... And that when you hear of someone thinking of getting a dog from them, advise them to do further research.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The fact that this thread exists will also help! DogForums results tend to show up fairly high in Google searches, so perhaps if someone else is considering a Blustag dog, they will see this thread and learn what's going on.

Also, I'm not surprised that they don't actually do OFA/CERF on all their dogs. I should have actually looked up some dogs last night instead of taking their word for it! Ugh, I hate that the scammers are starting to learn what people are looking for now (champion dogs, health testing) and taking advantage of that.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Melgogs said:


> This is absolutely disgusting. The lenghts they go to deceive people is horrendous. I'm gonna do everything I can to get a refund and I'd also like to do something to get back at these people. What they're doing is just awful and needs to be stopped.


as others have said, you should not go forward with getting a puppy from them- consider yourself lucky that you found out now. The breeder is somewhat infamous in these parts, and not in a good way.

https://support.google.com/news/answer/1638638?hl=en&rd=1

http://www.wbtv.com/story/21252641/dogs-sold-from-local-kennel-making-people-sick


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, the comments on that second one!


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Wow, the comments on that second one!


https://www.google.com/maps/place/2...2!3m1!1s0x88538db0303342d3:0x458771fbad9db355

But they sleep in the house! See... all the little houses in the backyard?

Yep, they're a class act. Have been for years.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Well that's a bummer. Interesting to note the BBB score.... something to consider when researching breeders. There won't always be a BBB score for breeders but it's one more avenue to check at least.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Please, everybody, don't read this as a black mark against breeders in general. Many breeders are wonderful people who are doing the best they can to raise good healthy pups. Even where they seem expensive, they may be making not much more than minimum wage (sometimes much less) for time put into research, care, vet expenses, etc. 
Yes, there are scumbags out there. Most of them leave a trail of complaints behind. And there are also people who are more-or-less on the level, but who still put the almighty dollar before producing quality dogs.

Research your breeder carefully!!!!!


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

So I spent a whole sleepless night yesterday on nothing but tamaskan groups aproved by the TDR and my god, the tamaskan world is just so full of drama! There's like at least 4 breeders all accusing each other of being puppy mills, Blustag UK is aparently turning into a puppy mill themselves, no one seems to agree on what a REAL tamaskan is, people get into fights over what the genetics of a REAL tamaskan are, some people even accuse others of not owning real tamaskans and thus misrepresenting the breed... It's a whole mess, and a newbie person who really likes the breed has to navigate through all the drama to FINALLY find the reputable breeders, only for many of the reputable breeders to have websites last updated in 2012!

No wonder it's so easy to fall into the trap of the tamaskan puppy mills. Now it turns out not even Blustag UK is trustworthy and they were amongst the founders. This is such a huge mess...


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Don't feel silly or anything!! I basically went through something REALLY similar when I was looking for my breeder for Australian Shepherds. I thought I found a good breeder and then as I went to visit her more and more there were things that just didn't jive with me. Here's the post that made me realize that I was unknowingly about to support a BYB that looked great on paper, but due to inexperience I thought she was good. Honestly, I'm really happy that I posted here and listened to the advice that was given to me.

Here's my post: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/367169-loss-faith-breeder-slight.html


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I feel your pain, Mel... While I did preliminary research on the breed I own now, I didn't really delve too deeply into it until AFTER I got my puppy (cut me some slack, I was SO excited my hubs was on board with getting a puppy after a lonely year and a half of having no dog...). Come to find out, there is just so much drama and there are registry wars... one registry claiming to be the ONLY true registry, others that accept dual-registered dogs, lots of smack-talk and breeder-shaming, it is just crazy. I started to wonder what in the world I got myself into. It's just sad and ridiculous because in these situations it's the dogs that suffer. And there are those of us that truly just don't know what to believe because both sides are shaming and slandering the other side.

In the end, though, I have fallen in love with this breed and my dog is so exceptional - just so, so smart and affectionate and goofy... everything I ever want in a dog so she's basically as perfect as I'm going to get! I would definitely get another one but with my eyes wide open regarding which breeders I'd deal with in the future and which organization I'd deal with as far as registration goes.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

In a related note, what would you folks consider to be a BYB exactly? Rather, how would you define a BYB vs. a low-volume breeder that works out of their home (as most I know do)? It may just be semantics... But would you classify the guy who has solid dogs and has a litter or two per year a BYB?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

My Opinion:

A BYB is someone who doesn't do health testing or temperament testing on their dogs before breeding - they are not breeding to better the line of dogs, or for working / show reasons, or to see the 'proper standard' of dog go to a good home with good people who understand the breed; they are breeding dogs for the sake of making money. They will also generally not stick to 1 breed and prefer to breed multiple breeds of dogs so as to bring in more revenue.

To properly raise a puppy from 0 - whenever it is you send them home, you have to put a lot of time, energy and dedication to this one litter. It is very hard for even reputable breeders to do this with two or more litters on the ground at once.

Here are a few things I look out for when choosing a breeder:

- refundable deposit (unless you CHOOSE to back out of getting that dog at the last minute, and circumstances matter)
- Proper health testing, breed specific health testing
- [NO] over-breeding their bitch (every heat without any breaks)
- [NO] breeding their bitches too young / too old, same with studs
- having a clause stating the breeder will take back the dog if, for any reason, I can no longer take proper care of it
- proper Early Development Training for the puppies
- only one [maybe two] breeds that you are breeding (less dogs of each breed if its more than one, even then it's iffy and circumstantial)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> In a related note, what would you folks consider to be a BYB exactly? Rather, how would you define a BYB vs. a low-volume breeder that works out of their home (as most I know do)? It may just be semantics... But would you classify the guy who has solid dogs and has a litter or two per year a BYB?


I *want* someone who has a litter or two a year and has the dogs living in their home. I don't consider those all BYB. I really wouldn't likely buy from a breeder otherwise. Anyone with tons of dogs, living in kennels, and have litter after litter is not a reputable breeder, they are in it for money. I consider these people to be basically mills. And yes, there are breeders like this who breed show and working dogs - it's not just the typical "puppy mills" we think of with a million small breed dogs living in tiny cages. I still don't want to buy from someone putting out that many puppies without enough time to properly raise them all or prove the parents. Some of them might even produce amazing agility/show/working dogs, and they might take good care of their dogs, but I would still steer away.

Out of the people who have a couple dogs and breed a litter or two a year, there are vast differences. I want someone who health tests, breeds primarily for temperament, and shows or otherwise does something with their dogs. I just call these reputable breeders, though I might use "hobby breeder" for someone who breeds very few litters (like one every 7 years, vs 1-2 a year consistently). The hobby breeder might not have their own "line" or be making huge improvement to the breed as a whole (because that takes more than one litter every blue moon) but when they do breed it's with quality dogs and they do it right. There are other breeders who are in it for the long term, building and improving their line, etc who can also be fantastic (and I might go to them if I wanted to start a breeding project of my own).

To me, a BYB is someone with two pets who would make cute puppies, with no thought to actually testing and proving their dogs' temperaments or health. The BYB might really care about their dogs, and treat them as loved pets, but they aren't breeding thoughtfully and they aren't breeding dogs that I want to buy. The way I define it, BYBs are probably not in it for money (at least as a long term business plan), though the allure of extra cash is always enticing. I think of them more as people who just want to breed their dogs and haven't put much thought into it beyond that.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Melgogs said:


> So I spent a whole sleepless night yesterday on nothing but tamaskan groups aproved by the TDR and my god, the tamaskan world is just so full of drama! There's like at least 4 breeders all accusing each other of being puppy mills, Blustag UK is aparently turning into a puppy mill themselves, no one seems to agree on what a REAL tamaskan is, people get into fights over what the genetics of a REAL tamaskan are, some people even accuse others of not owning real tamaskans and thus misrepresenting the breed... It's a whole mess, and a newbie person who really likes the breed has to navigate through all the drama to FINALLY find the reputable breeders, only for many of the reputable breeders to have websites last updated in 2012!
> 
> No wonder it's so easy to fall into the trap of the tamaskan puppy mills. Now it turns out not even Blustag UK is trustworthy and they were amongst the founders. This is such a huge mess...


Similar drama in my breed, in their country of origin. And my breed isn't even new. But yes, lots of drama. Some of the issue with Tamaskans seems to be the desire for niche market. The less breeders you have to compete with, the less effort you have to put into what you produce. Less breeders, less options, less competition and less likely someone is going to "raise the bar" regarding how and what is produced.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

missc89 said:


> Don't feel silly or anything!! I basically went through something REALLY similar when I was looking for my breeder for Australian Shepherds. I thought I found a good breeder and then as I went to visit her more and more there were things that just didn't jive with me. Here's the post that made me realize that I was unknowingly about to support a BYB that looked great on paper, but due to inexperience I thought she was good. Honestly, I'm really happy that I posted here and listened to the advice that was given to me.
> 
> Here's my post: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/367169-loss-faith-breeder-slight.html


Omg and you had already fell in love with on of the pups and everything, that just really, really sucks. It seriously is a good idea to post here before getting the puppies, things could have gone pretty bad.

I still feel angry with how deceitful and money hungry people are, tho, and how easy it is for newbies to fall for the trap. There's just some terrible people out there.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> In a related note, what would you folks consider to be a BYB exactly? Rather, how would you define a BYB vs. a low-volume breeder that works out of their home (as most I know do)? It may just be semantics... But would you classify the guy who has solid dogs and has a litter or two per year a BYB?


For me... A BYB is someone who breeds strictly for financial benefit. No health testing, no real consideration for what is produced, no purpose to their breedings other than selling puppies.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Melgogs said:


> Omg and you had already fell in love with on of the pups and everything, that just really, really sucks. It seriously is a good idea to post here before getting the puppies, things could have gone pretty bad.
> 
> I still feel angry with how deceitful and money hungry people are, tho, and how easy it is for newbies to fall for the trap. There's just some terrible people out there.


There really are, but you were amazing for being able to say no and not continue with them! Really! I KNOW how hard it is and the dog you get instead will be a much better fit and I know he or she will make you much happier ^-^


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Gumiho said:


> For me... A BYB is someone who breeds strictly for financial benefit. No health testing, no real consideration for what is produced, no purpose to their breedings other than selling puppies.


I think it's so hard to talk about this stuff because everybody has a slightly different definition. To me what you described would be a mill, and BYBs are more the family who wants to make cute puppies. Sure they like the money, but they are doing it because they love their pet. Neither care what they produce or have any real purpose though.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

OK both of those posts make sense re: BYB. And that's basically how I was looking at it too, good to know I was on the right track. It gets confusing sometimes because one could say that the breeder I bought from is a BYB and in fact I was a little concerned at first because I couldn't find much information about him or his kennel online. After getting to know him a bit more and putting out some feelers to some other breeders, I came to realize that he is actually a reputable breeder with a good solid line of dogs by all accounts. We got the health guarantee, he works his dogs, breeds only to produce better dogs than the parents, and eventually I realized that the fact I couldn't dig out a lot of info online was actually a good thing... People are quick to complain, and if there was anything negative I would have turned it up. I think he just stays out of the drama, thus is a bit more under the radar than a lot of the breeders that are so prominent within my breed. And I appreciate that.

**PS... I was also asking because growing up in a family that bred literally every animal we had (species, rather, not individual animals!), I had to take a step back and view things objectively and not colored by my own experience. That said, I've never known anyone that made money breeding anything, really - most breeders I know (whether dogs, horses, etc.) are in it for the love of the breed and to improve the health and temperaments with every generation. I'd agree that if you enter into breeding with the goal of making money, you will likely be disappointed. With our dogs, we'd have one litter per year... one year it was the schnauzers, the next it was the rotties... only once or twice did we actually have litters on the ground from both of our bitches at the same time. To me the BYB is the person who has good intentions, but is really just unaware of true ethical breeding practices.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I think it's so hard to talk about this stuff because everybody has a slightly different definition. To me what you described would be a mill, and BYBs are more the family who wants to make cute puppies. Sure they like the money, but they are doing it because they love their pet. Neither care what they produce or have any real purpose though.


I think something that we can all agree on in terms of what makes a GOOD breeder, is someone who health tests and breeds for temperament and someone who does something with their dogs.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I think it's so hard to talk about this stuff because everybody has a slightly different definition. To me what you described would be a mill, and BYBs are more the family who wants to make cute puppies. Sure they like the money, but they are doing it because they love their pet. Neither care what they produce or have any real purpose though.


To me a mill is the same thing, but in higher volume.

A Puppy mill is a high volume Breeder working with that business ethic and goal.
A BYB may just be Bob and Sally down the street who decided to breed their two intact dogs one time because they're soooo cute and everybody would want to buy one. Or it may be Jane Doe a few blocks over with two intact females and one intact male that breeds one or two litters yearly... Just to sell puppies.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> OK both of those posts make sense re: BYB. And that's basically how I was looking at it too, good to know I was on the right track. It gets confusing sometimes because one could say that the breeder I bought from is a BYB and in fact I was a little concerned at first because I couldn't find much information about him or his kennel online. After getting to know him a bit more and putting out some feelers to some other breeders, I came to realize that he is actually a reputable breeder with a good solid line of dogs by all accounts. We got the health guarantee, he works his dogs, breeds only to produce better dogs than the parents, and eventually I realized that the fact I couldn't dig out a lot of info online was actually a good thing... People are quick to complain, and if there was anything negative I would have turned it up. I think he just stays out of the drama, thus is a bit more under the radar than a lot of the breeders that are so prominent within my breed. And I appreciate that.


A lot of times, at least in some breeds, the more info that's out there the worse off you are. Haha. If everybody is talking about controversies at kennel XYZ, I would probably stop digging and just steer clear. Could be those controversies are just drama and they are fine breeders, but I don't want to get involved. There are lots of people breeding really nice dogs who fall under the radar (and don't even have websites!)



missc89 said:


> I think something that we can all agree on in terms of what makes a GOOD breeder, is someone who health tests and breeds for temperament and someone who does something with their dogs.


I think we can agree on the broad points, but I think there's still a lot of disagreement on the finer points, or the things we would compromise on personally.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> I feel your pain, Mel... While I did preliminary research on the breed I own now, I didn't really delve too deeply into it until AFTER I got my puppy (cut me some slack, I was SO excited my hubs was on board with getting a puppy after a lonely year and a half of having no dog...). Come to find out, there is just so much drama and there are registry wars... one registry claiming to be the ONLY true registry, others that accept dual-registered dogs, lots of smack-talk and breeder-shaming, it is just crazy. I started to wonder what in the world I got myself into. It's just sad and ridiculous because in these situations it's the dogs that suffer. And there are those of us that truly just don't know what to believe because both sides are shaming and slandering the other side.
> 
> In the end, though, I have fallen in love with this breed and my dog is so exceptional - just so, so smart and affectionate and goofy... everything I ever want in a dog so she's basically as perfect as I'm going to get! I would definitely get another one but with my eyes wide open regarding which breeders I'd deal with in the future and which organization I'd deal with as far as registration goes.


Yes, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all this drama. Thankfully the reputable breeders I have managed to contact and to whom I told my experience with Blustag were very kind and supportive and one even offered me a spot on her own application process list. It was very sweet of her but now I'm a bit in a "TRUST NO ONE" mode so I'll be asking for a whole lot of vet work and actual communication to be shown before agreeing to anything.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Gumiho said:


> To me a mill is the same thing, but in higher volume.
> 
> A Puppy mill is a high volume Breeder working with that business ethic and goal.
> A BYB may just be Bob and Sally down the street who decided to breed their two intact dogs one time because they're soooo cute and everybody would want to buy one.


Yeah, I agree with that distinction.

Now that I think about it, to me a mill is essentially a business. They sell puppies and that's how they make all of their money. They are a "professional breeder" with large volume. A BYB is making some money on the side, but breeding puppies is not how they support themselves.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Melgogs said:


> Yes, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all this drama. Thankfully the reputable breeders I have managed to contact and to whom I told my experience with Blustag were very kind and supportive and one even offered me a spot on her own application process list. It was very sweet of her but now I'm a bit in a "TRUST NO ONE" mode so I'll be asking for a whole lot of vet work and actual communication to be shown before agreeing to anything.


That's just being smart about finding a reputable breeder and being skeptical!! You've got us to help you, so you can go out and be confident that you WILL find the right breeder!!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Melgogs said:


> Yes, I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by all this drama. Thankfully the reputable breeders I have managed to contact and to whom I told my experience with Blustag were very kind and supportive and one even offered me a spot on her own application process list. It was very sweet of her but now I'm a bit in a "TRUST NO ONE" mode so I'll be asking for a whole lot of vet work and actual communication to be shown before agreeing to anything.


One thing to keep in mind, and I'm not sure it was mentioned here, is that deposits are *not* the norm with every breeder. So don't feel like you'll have to give money to someone (refundable or not) before you see your puppy or fully trust them. There are plenty of breeders out there (pretty much all of them in my breed, but I know it varies) who do not take money until you take your puppy home.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

You'll be glad when you find a good breeder. Before I knew anything I too fell in the byb breeder trap. But I already paid for it. Got to her house, and we'll short story I put down half a grand, 5 hour drive, for a sheltie with temperment so terrible she had to be returned. Red flags were everywhere but I didn't know them at the time. 

Fast forward several years, legit sheltie breeder, the difference was night and day. The dog was night and day. 

I would bet you will probably be able to feel the difference from here on out. And you will be glad for it.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I agree with that distinction.
> 
> Now that I think about it, to me a mill is essentially a business. They sell puppies and that's how they make all of their money. They are a "professional breeder" with large volume. A BYB is making some money on the side, but breeding puppies is not how they support themselves.


Yep. And to that end, I don't believe that all BYBs are inherently bad, or that a person shouldn't buy from one, ever. I think it depends on what you're looking for in your dog in the first place, and what you want to do with that dog going forward that should drive your purchasing decisions.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

TGKvr said:


> Yep. And to that end, I don't believe that all BYBs are inherently bad, or that a person shouldn't buy from one, ever. I think it depends on what you're looking for in your dog in the first place, and what you want to do with that dog going forward that should drive your purchasing decisions.


I would buy from a BYB if they did health testing and temperament testing - it's basically impossible to find a 'reputable breeder' for mixed dogs


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> One thing to keep in mind, and I'm not sure it was mentioned here, is that deposits are *not* the norm with every breeder. So don't feel like you'll have to give money to someone (refundable or not) before you see your puppy or fully trust them. There are plenty of breeders out there (pretty much all of them in my breed, but I know it varies) who do not take money until you take your puppy home.


Oh, this is actually very good information, thank you. I actually thought all breeders took deposits so it's good to know it varies from person to person! Also next time around, I WILL insist on steady communication with my breeder of choice, even if that other person thought I was being a huge baby for wanting this I don't care, I think this should be a given.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

In my opinion a BYB is someone who does not health test, does not breed for temperament, and just has pet dogs. I would be hesitant to buy from a breeder who does not show, work, or compete their dogs, whether it be agility, herding, whatever. If a breeder just has dogs they think are nice or cute or whatever and decides to breed them without them being proven, I would walk the other way.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I feel like someone who doesn't communicate with you isn't interested in doing business with you. Sure, they may not be able to answer every e-mail within 30 seconds but if they can't take a minute to shoot off one e-mail a day to each customer, their customer service is severely lacking. I mean, even if you're just selling some cheap junk on craigslist, you still have to answer peoples' questions and communicate with them!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Melgogs: did you get the charge off your credit card?


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> Melgogs: did you get the charge off your credit card?


We're still in the process of doing so with my company but things are looking up. However, these particular two people are known for being very vindictive and angry. I'm surprised they haven't called me to threaten me yet.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Melgogs said:


> We're still in the process of doing so with my company but things are looking up. However, these particular two people are known for being very vindictive and angry. I'm surprised they haven't called me to threaten me yet.


So sorry. Keep telling people avout your experience!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

missc89 said:


> I would buy from a BYB if they did health testing and temperament testing - it's basically impossible to find a 'reputable breeder' for mixed dogs


I wouldn't consider them a BYB in that case. It doesn't matter to me whether someone is breeding purebreds or mixes; if they're health testing, carefully matching breeding dogs for the best structure and temperament, keeping careful records of their breedings, properly screening buyers instead of giving a dog to anyone with money, agreeing to take a dog back at any point during its life, and breeding with a purpose, then they're probably not a BYB. People should look into any breeder they're interested in and decide on a case-by-case basis, though. There's no one definition of BYB and no one list of what it takes to be a reputable breeder.


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I wouldn't consider them a BYB in that case. It doesn't matter to me whether someone is breeding purebreds or mixes; if they're health testing, carefully matching breeding dogs for the best structure and temperament, keeping careful records of their breedings, properly screening buyers instead of giving a dog to anyone with money, agreeing to take a dog back at any point during its life, and breeding with a purpose, then they're probably not a BYB. People should look into any breeder they're interested in and decide on a case-by-case basis, though. There's no one definition of BYB and no one list of what it takes to be a reputable breeder.


Absolutely agree with this.

There are breeders who are well-respected and / or influential in their breeds that I wouldn't buy a dog from because they're unethical and essentially mills. But they health test (not always honestly) and are competitive show breeders. But they'll also sell to pretty much anyone willing to pay their price. 

On the flip side, depending on circumstances & breed, I'd be willing to get a dog from a breeder who doesn't health test, but has purpose. Goryeo's breeder didn't health test and he isn't from show lines (however, health testing is basically non-existent in Korea.). He is from more rural lines and a litter that was bred with the intent of improving on the parents and hopefully producing a show prospect, and the breeder is a dog fancier who shows. He also made a point of stressing that if for any reason we couldn't / wouldn't take him back with us to the US that he would take him back, not to sell him or dump him. That is not very common in Korea's pet culture. He also seemed pretty interested in the idea of health testing, from what little we were able to talk about it (he didn't speak English and mine and my Husband's Korean is limited). I picked up some OFFA materials and am going to try and have them translated for when I go back to Korea.

I was also given the opportunity of getting a second pup (show prospects from show lines) from a prominent show breeder in Korea... And ended up walking away without a pup because I wasn't comfortable with what I saw and how they handled themselves business-wise.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

There's a show breeder in the AKK world who sells pups to mills, sells "breeding prospects" that decidedly are not (I'm talking easty-westy feet, too-short tails, and undescended testicles), and who breeds for color. I wouldn't touch her dogs with a ten-foot pole. I would prefer to get an AKK from someone who shows, but I'd buy from someone who didn't as long as they were breeding for good temperament and were health testing (for Factor VII and a couple other things -- the breed's fairly healthy in general but I have seen some issues popping up lately, probably because of the aforementioned breeder and her even worse sister, who doesn't always even know which of her AKK fathered a given litter and who also sells to mills).

If I were buying something like a border collie or a husky, I wouldn't need for the breeder to show, and I wouldn't even need health testing if they were breeding their dogs for work and the pup's parents and grandparents and so on had proven themselves through work. A dog with bad health and structure won't be able to do a job for that long. So I have no hard and fast rules about what I look for in a breeder, not anymore. It's going to depend so much on the specific breed and on what kind of breeders are out there.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Melgogs said:


> We're still in the process of doing so with my company but things are looking up. However, these particular two people are known for being very vindictive and angry. I'm surprised they haven't called me to threaten me yet.


I think the smartest thing for you to do would be to dispute the charges, and then send an e-mail to Blustag with the list of reasons you have decided that you deserve your money back. The list can include the things you've been told here, like they're using dogs they haven't bred as examples on their website, they have been convicted of falsifying veterinary records, and they are not responding to your attempts to get in touch with them. Then you can keep that e-mail and any responses to it as further proof to submit to your credit card company. 

The process for rescinding credit card charges (with most companies) is: 1. You dispute a charge and ask for your money back. 2. The dispute gets forwarded to the vendor/person the money went to, and they have a chance to explain why they should keep the money (they have to reply within 30 days). 3. The response to your dispute gets sent to you, at which point you can reply to it. 4. A decision gets made, based on the evidence, about which way the dispute will go.

IF you get to stage 3, where this kennel has said "sorry, she put down a non-refundable deposit", it would be helpful to have evidence built up to prove that these people lie and misrepresent their kennel to submit to the credit card company.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> If I were buying something like a border collie or a husky, I wouldn't need for the breeder to show, and I wouldn't even need health testing if they were breeding their dogs for work and the pup's parents and grandparents and so on had proven themselves through work. A dog with bad health and structure won't be able to do a job for that long. So I have no hard and fast rules about what I look for in a breeder, not anymore. It's going to depend so much on the specific breed and on what kind of breeders are out there.


Agreed, it depends on the breed completely. There are several breeds I would rather NOT get from a show breeder, and other breeds I would be fine with a show breeder. Toast is AKC registered but his lines are not shown, they are worked in IPO and several other sports however. 

Plus in addition to stacking genetics in your favor, you are spending money to support breeder's practices you like or don't like. Early enrichment/training, puppy evaluations and placement, etc. I didn't pay $1800 for Toast, but I probably would have if that's what they'd been asking. In addition to solid genetics and health testing, he got a really good start at his breeders'. So I would have seen the value in spending that much. A completely different breeder, maybe not. So it's not as simple as "breed X is worth spending $Y on" for me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Agreed, it depends on the breed completely. There are several breeds I would rather NOT get from a show breeder, and other breeds I would be fine with a show breeder. Toast is AKC registered but his lines are not shown, they are worked in IPO and several other sports however.
> 
> Plus in addition to stacking genetics in your favor, you are spending money to support breeder's practices you like or don't like. Early enrichment/training, puppy evaluations and placement, etc. I didn't pay $1800 for Toast, but I probably would have if that's what they'd been asking. In addition to solid genetics and health testing, he got a really good start at his breeders'. So I would have seen the value in spending that much. A completely different breeder, maybe not. So it's not as simple as "breed X is worth spending $Y on" for me.


Add me to this camp.

Molly's mom was health tested, her dad was not. Her dad may or may not have been a mutt (one of his parents is unknown, and might have been a BC or an ACD). Neither one was shown, both had worked for generations. Not trialed, mind, but been actively used for herding work. Molly was raised in a barn stall, her early socialization was not deliberate and thoughtful but decent. She came with vet records and what I paid for her was less than what those vet visits cost. I would have paid more, but bottom line? She was an 'oops litter' (they didn't intend to breed the male dog, yet), half the equation was health tested, nobody had been shown or used for sports. Would I have paid 1800 for her? No, but I'd have paid a lot more than I did, too. 

Another breeder, I wouldn't be willing to pay them anything, or would have paid a lot more. Just really, really depends on what they're doing with their dogs, and what I "get" for my money. Lots of early socialization? A start on housetraining? A health guarantee? Several generations of health testing? Willingness to take the dog back if I can't keep it (this helps me)? Parents who have proven themselves in a way that matters to me? Regular, appropriate, vetting and testing of the puppies themselves.

I'll pay more for any or all of those things. 

A puppy with NONE of that, including vaccinations, worming, and being handled regularly? I'm not paying anything for it, but I might take it for free. 

It just really depends.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

^^ Right. Squash was an oops litter, too. His mother is healthy, but not health tested (not common in Alaskans at all to health test) from excellent racing lines and the father is unknown. But the litter was raised with a ton of socialization around stable adult dogs, people, good nutrition, good early experiences and enrichment, and support and mentoring in the breed and sport equal to any intentional breeder. Best $75 I ever spent, and I would have paid more for him for his good start... but not as much as I paid for Toast, since the genetics and health testing are a question mark. 

I do not mind spending money on something I value. The trick is finding someone doing the things that match what you personally value.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Ok, now I have more breeder questions now that I'm chatting with Tamaskan breeders who health test, only produce a litter a year and so on but I've found something potentially problematic...

One of the reasons Blustag UK fell from grace even though she was one of the founders of the Tamaskan breed as we know it today is because, through lies and deceptions, she introduced high content wolfdogs into some of the european Tamaskan foundation lines. She denied there being wolf content in some Tamaskan european lines for a while and placed many wolfy puppies in homes and this resulted in various problems with dogs eventually biting their owners, dogs being a bit dangerous and so on. 

After a while, the people that sold Blustag UK the wolfdogs stepped up and admitted to having dealt with her and exposed her lies about there not being any wolf content in her Tamaskan lines. However, it was too late as her wolfdogs had already been used as founders to one of the european Tamaskan lines. Its a huge mess and it can be witnessed in action in the official TDR forum as the thread where the truth was revealed has not been deleted.

So this brings us to today. One of the breeders I've been talking to is a very nice lady who extensively health tests her dogs and is about to breed a girl. However, looking at this dogs ancestry, I noticed her great grandfather is a high content wolfdog from Blustag UK. I asked the breeder about this and she told me that yes, this meant there would be some low wolf content in her upcoming litter.

My question is, would a puppy with a wolfdog great great grandfather be considered a low content wolfdog itself? And if so, is the puppy likely to exhibit wolf-like behaviour growing up?


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Low content wolfdogs will vary temperamentally. They're generally easier to work with the lower the content, however, you mentioned wanting this breed because they were described to you as laid back, if wolf content is present I would hesitate on that point alone. Were any other wolf content dogs used in the pedigree other than his direct descendents? I would search for breeder reviews, search the forum for dogs the breeder produced and see what kind of posts the owners make about their dogs. Are they often asking for behavior / training issue advice? Are they commenting on the energy of the dogs, the nerves, ect?


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Melgogs said:


> My question is, would a puppy with a wolfdog great great grandfather be considered a low content wolfdog itself? And if so, is the puppy likely to exhibit wolf-like behaviour growing up?


If the great great grandsire was a full wolf the pup would be 1/16 wolf. As he was less than full wolf, the fraction is smaller. I'd guess the wolf temperament would be overwhelmed by the rest of the genetics...especially if there have been no problems in the line. HOWEVER, if the breeder covered this up, you could be justified in worrying about what else she's covered up. I think people put far too much faith in tests. There are a lot of things, like allergies, epilepsy, cancers, for which there are no tests, and some tests (CREF eye exams, hip and elbow X-rays of parents) are pretty weak predictors.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Gumiho said:


> Low content wolfdogs will vary temperamentally. They're generally easier to work with the lower the content, however, you mentioned wanting this breed because they were described to you as laid back, if wolf content is present I would hesitate on that point alone. Were any other wolf content dogs used in the pedigree other than his direct descendents? I would search for breeder reviews, search the forum for dogs the breeder produced and see what kind of posts the owners make about their dogs. Are they often asking for behavior / training issue advice? Are they commenting on the energy of the dogs, the nerves, ect?


The thing is not all Tamaskan lines have wolf content. For instance, this breeder will breed one girl with wolf ancestry and later this year one girl with 0 wolf content.

In forums and groups, most people describe their Tamaskans as laid back (by which I mean they don't NEED tons of excercise like a husky would but they do certainly like a good hike once or twice a week), friendly and even a bit goofy. The only ones described differently are the Tamaskans from the infamous "Golden" litter, which is the litter that is the closest to the wolf in terms of ancestry and the Tamaskans from that litter had many temperament issues.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

However the "Golden" litter wasn't produced by this breeder but was the litter directly produced by this breeder's dog's grandfather by Blustag UK, hope that make sense! Most people have stellar reviews for this particular breeder and she's very well known in Tamaskan circles and has a very thorough application process.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

How far are you from the breeder? Can you go and meet her and the dogs in person so you can spend some time and interact with them? It's not the same as living with the dog, but it might answer some of your questions.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Sandakat said:


> How far are you from the breeder? Can you go and meet her and the dogs in person so you can spend some time and interact with them? It's not the same as living with the dog, but it might answer some of your questions.


Sadly ALL breeders live far away from me. In this case, I'm in Mexico and she's in Croatia.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

This seems like a great deal of time and money for a breed you only just heard of and have never met. Are you 100% sure this is the breed you want? I'd feel uncomfortable about importing a dog halfway around the world without being 100% sure. 

What traits are you looking for in a dog?


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Willowy said:


> This seems like a great deal of time and money for a breed you only just heard of and have never met. Are you 100% sure this is the breed you want? I'd feel uncomfortable about importing a dog halfway around the world without being 100% sure.
> 
> What traits are you looking for in a dog?


I fostered dogs for 5 years back when I lived in Monterrey, a city in Mexico. There was only one shelter in the whole city back then and I worked for it and one of my jobs was fostering. I would foster up to 4 dogs at a time in my house and one of my best experiences was when I got to foster two grown up husky brothers for 4 months. 

They were a handful, very mischievous, stubborn and needed to be occupied all the time but they were so smart and active. I fostered them back when the war on drugs was in full swing, everyone was dying left and right, walking or running with the dogs was too dangerous so I had to come up with lots of novel ways to keep them entertained in my garden and burn off their energy. They would sometimes overheat and need to swim in my pool to ward off the Monterrey heat but otherwise I really enjoyed my time with them and was a bit sad when they got adopted.

Since then, I've been very interested in getting an arctic breed dog. I didn't do it in Monterrey because I felt we had too many dogs to take care of as it was but now that I am in Mexico city where the weather is much cooler and I have a forest a ten minute walk from where I live and more time on my hands, I feel I can have the dog now. 

I spent a while dogsitting my neighbor's Husky pup while researching the arctic breeds more fully as I've had hands-on experience with Huskies but never researched them too much. That's how I came across the Tamaskan, which is described as being a bit more laid back than the Husky but with the same inteligence, the same "fun" element to them AND a much better recall than most Huskies. That really appealed to me so I researched the breed but got tricked into thinking the Tamaskan club of America was legit, searched for breeders of Tamaskans, got mixed up with the two Blustags, thought Blustag UK was reliable because they were one of the founders of the breed and this whole mess happened.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

A lot of breed descriptions are a little. . .overenthusiastic . I dunno. . .it just seems like you should meet a few before sinking a few thousand dollars and shipping a dog a zillion miles.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Willowy said:


> A lot of breed descriptions are a little. . .overenthusiastic . I dunno. . .it just seems like you should meet a few before sinking a few thousand dollars and shipping a dog a zillion miles.


Sadly meeting a few is near impossible for me unless I take a plane trip JUST for that. The next best thing is asking people who own Tamaskans on forums and facebook about their dogs and skypeing breeders . 

If what people say of their Tamaskans is true however, they seem the perfect mix of energetic, friendly, smart and trainable without going to extremes AND they're very pretty to boot. It just seems like a wonderful breed despite all the drama.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I can't imagine a dog with that ancestry being laid back and wanting a good hike just a couple of times a week. I'd prepare for a more energetic dog than you're expecting. Luckily, it sounds like you'd be able to handle that, anyway.


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## Melgogs (Mar 21, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I can't imagine a dog with that ancestry being laid back and wanting a good hike just a couple of times a week. I'd prepare for a more energetic dog than you're expecting. Luckily, it sounds like you'd be able to handle that, anyway.


Yeah I'm not worried of getting an overly active dog, I enjoy finding ways to tire out those types of dogs but my concerns are more about behaviour with that type of ancestry. Everyone on forums and such keeps saying their dogs are super friendly and whatnot but weird stuff happens with genetics sometimes.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't worry much about a dog with wolf that far back in its ancestry. If it was a grandfather, sure. But a great-great-grandfather that wasn't even a full wolf? The wolf's going to be diluted a lot. If you're nervous, though, talk to some people who own dogs from those lines and ask about their temperament. Good breeders will often put you in contact with other buyers if you ask.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

The Tamaskans I've met (I met about 4ish Tamaskans on three separate occasions, I think) have all been described as troublemakers. They climb, steal, destroy, and generally don't follow rules. Could be a training issue of course, but I consistently hear from their owners that they have a sense of humor and enjoy getting into all sorts of messes. I don't find them high strung or particularly hyperactive from my brief encounters with them, but I also wasn't under the impression that they're laid back. Two of them were nervous in large crowds - not sure about the other two because we were outdoors.


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