# Cesar Millan or Victoria Stilwell



## MustangMark (Mar 1, 2013)

There doesn't seem to be any middle ground when reading about these two. I can find positives with both personalities, but most people seem to be in one camp or the other. I'm curious to hear the opinions of people on this forum. Be sure to include why you feel the way you do.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Victoria Stillwell. 

If I can't train my dog without flooding and physical intimidation/manipulation, my dog is smarter than me and I shouldn't have one.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I probably shouldn't be engaging in this but...

If I have to pick, Victoria. Every time.

They're both a joke on their own right.
Victoria is a bit mediocre, but she does use positive techniques that work. They're easy on the dogs and easier for the owners to keep up with. She doesn't just teach the dogs, she teaches the people.

Milan is an uneducated, untrained, egotistical POS who has NO idea what he's doing. His methods are based on something that is, and always has, been wrong (Dominance does not exist with dogs.) His methods are cruel and they always do more harm than good. Most -if not all- of the dogs he "trains" end up worsening in their problems or developing new ones, which in turn means they either end up in shelters or PTS. I honestly feel like he needs to be removed from TV, the internet, his books should be burned and he needs to take a break to educate himself and grow up. If the average owner implemented his techniques the way he does, they would likely be arrested for animal abuse. 


If I ever needed a trainer, I would go with someone who uses positive techniques, who has been educated and trained in their field, rather than either of these two.


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## Gina_1978 (Jun 3, 2012)

I am a *HUGE* Cesar Millan fan.I dont follow what he does,because I havent ever needed to (never met a dog like the ones he deals with),but I LOVE his show and to watch him work and see all the dogs he gets to work with.
I am a HUGE huge fan  

As for Victoria Stilwell..I just think she´s a Cesar Millan wannabe lol.I have seen her show (downloaded them all) and I dont think much of her at all.Anyone who wears 2 inches of make up,designer clothes and high heels when working with animals just can´t be taken seriously if you ask me 

Edited to add: I had no idea Cesar Millan was looked down on else where o.0 We even have dog trainers here that claim to use his mothods..that´s how popular he is here.Maybe it´s because he´s latin? 
I must admit that as a rule,I will watch ANYTHING with dogs in it


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Neither. 

Why? Because I prefer real trainers, those that have actually trialed their dogs or have done actual work with their dogs. Not an actress with an inflated head and a terrible wardrobe, not an ego maniac who has let fame cloud his judgement. I don't particularly care for any TV trainer.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> I probably shouldn't be engaging in this but...
> 
> If I have to pick, Victoria. Every time.
> 
> ...



Actually, all of this, but I shouldn't engage, either. I should, and am, self-moderating enough to unsub from the thread, though, because I don't think I want to know that anyone here that I otherwise consider intelligent and sane loves Milan. It just won't accomplish anything good.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well if those were the only two choices in the whole world, I'd pick Stilwell although I wouldn't exactly say I'm in her "camp." Because he doesn't seem to have even the most basic grasp of dog behavior or learning. She's no super star herself, but at least she's got some understanding of the principles of learning.


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## Gina_1978 (Jun 3, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I don't think I want to know that anyone here that I otherwise consider intelligent and sane loves Milan.


Ooops  
I had no idea he was that bad..seriously.His show is still pretty new here and I´m admitting that I watch it.But in all fairness,we dont get many shows about dogs here (right now we have 2,and one is Cesars),so I enjoy it because I get to see breeds that we can´t get or rarely see.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

I kind of think that both are silly, but when I watch Stilwell I don't feel the need to scream at my TV.

I wish that neither had TV shows, because I feel like people use them as a free trainer, and apply their methods to their dogs without understanding if that method is applicable to their situation.
However, I think that people are much more likely to get hurt/mess up their dogs if they do this with Caesar's methods rather than Victoria's.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

NEITHER.... BUT if I had to pick..... I would pick Cesar soley on his ability to read dogs....


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Short answer... I watch them both. .. kinda like people watch their afternoon soap operas.....


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I do the same as Gina_1978, I watch Caesar because I like to see the dogs but not what he does with them. More of a what not to do. I have never seen any of Stilwell's shows as don't get it on my TV but Caesar comes on the Nat. Geo. channel usually on Sundays when there is nothing else on.

I would much rather watch Utube with some of the better trainers like Kikopup.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

If I had to pick, Stilwell all the way. I don't watch her show, but I have watched and applied a lot of her training methods through her youtube videos. A lot of her videos are so easy and simple. And I'll never follow anything that isn't positive reinforcement. I sometimes watch Cesar, you know... when I'm in the mood to let out my anger and feel like screaming about him to my husband.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I dunno, I just can't bring myself to sit down and watch a man kick, hit, shock, slap, punch, throw and hang dogs. 
The same as his physical abuse churns my stomach, I can't handle watching him stare dogs down and growl at them.

I hate to see anything scared and basically beg for mercy. SOOO many dogs on his show cower from him and do everything they have to in order to not get hurt, for reasons they don't understand. Then they're punished for trying to defend themselves.
I have been in similar situations so many times, that I absolutely cannot watch someone do it to another person or animal. If I can across his man in person, I have doubt that I would compulsively step in and do something. Watching his show, to me, means I can't step in and help the animal he's basically torturing, nor can I educate the owners he's lying to, and that stresses me out more than anything.
So, I stopped watching him a long time ago.


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## boodog (Feb 28, 2013)

I would say that Both offer insight into how a dog will react to training.
I watch both, and have used things from both.
I had someone who feared their dog so bad they gave it to me.
American dingo/pit bull mix. Crated most of it's 2 years on earth.
To turn it quickly from it's aggressive tendencies I used Caesar's training techniques. 
It beats the heck out of it winding up in the dumpster at the shelter.

I got a new home for it, and taught the new owner how to use a clicker, and positive reinforcement training.
The mild Victoria approach won't always take hold with an already messed up dog.
Yet it is the best way.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Haven't watched a lot of Victoria Stilwell.. But from what I have seen, I don't really care for her. I cannot STAND Cesar Millan. Seriously, cannot friggin' stand him.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Ive never watched Victoria all I know is I cant stand her.voice or dress and since we can't go on that lol.

To be honest and Ive mentioned this before, but I used to like Cesar, in his early seasons, he had a cool way of reading the dogs and picking up on things, I didn't really find his techniques mean, physical yes, but not harsh. However I can't stand him now, I watched two of his newer episodes and it was just plain awful, and i have sense quit watching him.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> NEITHER.... BUT if I had to pick..... I would pick Cesar soley on his ability to read dogs....


The guy who very recently said that a dog puts its feet on both sides of the bowl when it eats because it's trying to dominate the bowl? The guy who got himself bitten because he challenged a resource guarder he didn't know, ignoring the myriad signals the dog threw at him beforehand? That guy?

I think Cesar has SOME good ideas. I like the whole calm assertive thing. I like that he stresses exercise as one of the most important things a dog needs. But I _really_ don't think he's good at reading dogs, and he seems like a bully in general -- someone who takes pleasure in "winning" a confrontation with a dog.

I'd choose Victoria over Cesar; neither has any actual qualifications, but at least I find her entertaining rather than frustrating. Also, if people copy her, they won't harm their dogs or risk a bite, unlike with Cesar.


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## boodog (Feb 28, 2013)

I don't think either are the one and only. I think you need to do what it takes. I would get tough to save a dog from being PTS. But I think long term training should be positive. I never saw Victoria break a dog of food aggression. I have used the dog whisperer way, and it worked well for me a few times. Not mean to be dominant It sometimes has to be that way. If they run all over you, that leads to problems for them, and you.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

There are much better choices. They just don't have widely known TV shows because ACTUALLY working with a dog makes for really boring TV.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

boodog said:


> I don't think either are the one and only. I think you need to do what it takes. I would get tough to save a dog from being PTS. But I think long term training should be positive. I never saw Victoria break a dog of food aggression. I have used the dog whisperer way, and it worked well for me a few times. Not mean to be dominant It sometimes has to be that way. If they run all over you, that leads to problems for them, and you.


Except, most of the dogs he "trains" do end up being either put in a shelter or PTS. And if they're in a shelter with the problems a lot them have, they end up being PTS anyway.
At no point does this man fix any problem a dog may have. What he does do is use violence and intimidation to mask the problem by creating a dog that's too afraid to act.
Especially with the dogs he works with that are fearful. He slaps them around intimidates them. What does that teach them? To defend themselves before anything happens. 
You can only shake a pop for so long before it explodes.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

boodog said:


> Not mean to be dominant It sometimes has to be that way. If they run all over you, that leads to problems for them, and you.


I don't know why people seem to believe that the choice is between "dominate your dog" and "let your dog run all over you." News flash: You can train a dog to be well-mannered without bullying the dog into submission. I like Nothing In Life Is Free as a training philosophy, and I think that most people who talk about dominance _actually_ want to do something like that. Here are my usual dominance-related links for people to check out, anyway.

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog
Wolf Researcher L. David Mech's site (he helped popularize the whole "pack order"/alpha/dominance thing in wolves -- which of course led to people using it in dog training -- but later learned that much of what he believed was wrong)


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

neither but if I had to choose it would be CM because of his basic principles and I hate stillwell with a passion lol


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

A couple of other Cesar-related articles I had bookmarked because I found them interesting:

Pack of Lies
One Person's Experience With the Dog Whisperer

Excerpt from the first:



> Mr. Millan builds his philosophy from a simplistic conception of the dog’s “natural” pack, controlled by a dominant alpha animal (usually male). In his scheme, that leader is the human, which leads to the conclusion that all behavior problems in dogs derive from the failure of the owner or owners to dominate. (Conveniently, by this logic, if Mr. Millan’s intervention doesn’t produce lasting results, it is the owner’s fault.)
> 
> Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”
> 
> ...


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

I think I would rather get rid of my tv then be forced to watch either one of them.


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## boodog (Feb 28, 2013)

In many instances the nothing in life is free theory goes all the way of being a pack leader. Ownership, is dominance.

Some see all of that as too much. 
Some would let the dogs run the house. 
Some do, and that's how many dogs wind up in the back yard on a rope.
I never hit a dog. I like clicker training at an early stage of life, and I "capture" my dogs attention.
Just the same, I still will go whatever way I need,.. to save one from the pound.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I honestly cannot imagine a scenario where one would have to use dominance techniques to save a dog from the pound. I'd actually be willing to bet that people using dominance techniques have landed dogs in there more often than not.


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## Chi Nation (Feb 25, 2013)

*I would have to say Cezar. He seems to have been a dog in a former life ..lol

Not downing Victoria at all, but His methods get to the point and the dogs seem to know it. Where Victorias ways seem to "beat around the bush" and its almost like bribing the dog to see things your way. 

Honestly, i say what ever works for you and your dog. To each his own. One technique is not going to work for every dog.*


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lol A dude who "didn't see that coming" when he got nailed by that dog Holly... does not impress me with his dog reading skillz.


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## Chi Nation (Feb 25, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I honestly cannot imagine a scenario where one would have to use dominance techniques to save a dog from the pound. I'd actually be willing to bet that people using dominance techniques have landed dogs in there more often than not.


True... thats why people with no former experience should begin attempting to convince themselves they know what their doing just because they saw it on tv. They get all syked up thinking they are Cezar Milan and end up doing things wrong and making the situation worse because they didn't really know what they were doing in the first place.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm actually texting with a friend about CM right now lol. Her Aussie is so incredibly timid, and very skittish, and I'm helping her out by suggesting good videos and training. I told her Kikopup was a really good one and she said she's going to try some of her methods with the clicker. Then we got to talking about CM... I went on a blood boiling rant through text and said that man would RUIN Wilhelm if he ever got his hands on him. (The aussie).


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Victoria Stilwell. I have her book and took tips on how to train my dog when I didn't even own a dog yet. I like her views, how she's not rough with the dogs, and she doesn't hurt the dog either when training. Cesar is just all wrong in everything he does, in my opinion. I will never follow him, nor will I allow anyone to train my dog that way. I won't even let my own brother walk my dog because he uses Cesar's training and it's too much.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Caesar's calm energy principle is something that I think everyone should abide by. Nobody's reactive dog is going to calm down if the person at the other end of the leash is trembling with nervous energy. I believe dogs can sense emotions like that and they can feed off those kind of energies. That being said, I find offense with any trainer that sees women as automatically lower in the "pack". If anything, Pepper respects myself and my mother more than the man in the house (my father) because are the ones who work him. We aren't dominant over him, we just train him and he sees us as people he wants to work for. Dad and the other girls are only treaters, not trainers!

I would have to go with Victoria, in general. She doesn't teach people to push their dogs around and she isn't abrasive to me. She is likable, teaching simple, positive training techniques that people can use without messing them up. She might not have any credentials but she gets her point across without hurting anybody or using techniques that people can twist into borderline animal abuse.


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## Gina_1978 (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You can train a dog to be well-mannered without bullying the dog into submission.


I agree with this.I have never had to hold one of my dogs down to make it understand that it simply has to listen to me.This is what I meant when I said that I do watch the show,but have never had to use his methods or can imagine where I would need them..not with my 3lb dogs lol.



RabbleFox said:


> Caesar's calm energy principle is something that I think everyone should abide by. Nobody's reactive dog is going to calm down if the person at the other end of the leash is trembling with nervous energy. I believe dogs can sense emotions like that and they can feed off those kind of energies.


ITA with this.This is one of the things I like about Cesar..advice like that.



RabbleFox said:


> That being said, I find offense with any trainer that sees women as automatically lower in the "pack". If anything, Pepper respects myself and my mother more than the man in the house (my father) because are the ones who work him. We aren't dominant over him, we just train him and he sees us as people he wants to work for. Dad and the other girls are only treaters, not trainers!


LOVE this! It´s the same in my house too.I have worked with my dogs since they came home.I was the one who woke up in the middle of the night to take them to their potty pads and who taught them what they know,and they have always been eager to please and obedient.
Both listen to me and do what I need/want them to do,yet they have my husband wrapped around their little finger lol.For training,they do way better with me


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I was a big Cesar fan back in the day. I guess I was just blind, or ignorant, but I saw what I wanted to see. I thought he was just soooo great at reading dogs, etc. Thankfully, I never used his methods on Jackson, I simply never needed to. Well I guess the only thing I implemented was exercise. And for a while, I did the whole "I walk out the door first" thing with him, but it wasn't really a dominance thing. I'm glad I did now because he never door darts, and he always waits for me to give him the 'okay'. 

Victoria is okay. I've watched most of her shows, too, but I never liked the actual show as much as Dog Whisperer (back when I used to watch it). I thought it was produced odd, and now her more recent episodes, are like 75% about the human's stupid marriage problems, etc, and then we get like 5 minutes of dog training.

If I had to choose, definitely Victoria though. In terms of who I'd let touch my dog... Victoria.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Cesar is a joke. I don't have any use for people who need to string dogs up on a leash and provoke them into biting for tv ratings.

I like Victoria. Yeah, she's a little bit annoying, and her newer episodes are just family drama instead of dog training, *but* I subscribe to her blog and she really does a lot for the world of positive dog training that you would never know from watching her tv show. She may have started as just a tv personality, but now she travels the world doing seminars, supporting rescue, and promoting positive and science based training. Anyone who uses their celebrity status for those things has my backing.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Cesar is a joke. I don't have any use for people who need to string dogs up on a leash and provoke them into biting for tv ratings.
> 
> I like Victoria. Yeah, she's a little bit annoying, and her newer episodes are just family drama instead of dog training, *but* I subscribe to her blog and she really does a lot for the world of positive dog training that you would never know from watching her tv show. She may have started as just a tv personality, but now she travels the world doing seminars, supporting rescue, and promoting positive and science based training. Anyone who uses their celebrity status for those things has my backing.


I feel the same way! I don't really watch the show much, but her blog and her videos that focus on just the training found on Youtube are incredibly helpful!


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

boodog said:


> * I never saw Victoria break a dog of food aggression.* I have used the dog whisperer way, and it worked well for me a few times. Not mean to be dominant It sometimes has to be that way. If they run all over you, that leads to problems for them, and you.



Actually she did deal with a food aggressive/resource guarding dog on an episode I watched. She introduced the trading up game which worked very well with the dog who had bitten multiple people already over items.

I agree with most that I really wouldn't want to have to choose between either of them but if I had to pick I'd be Stilwell.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I can't find her show anymore on tv. When is it on and what time? 

As far as I know she does have credentials, she just doesn't plaster them around the way CM does. I also agree with RabbleFox; if I'm starting to get nervous because of something my dog picks it up immediately.


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## StitchWitch (Feb 28, 2013)

I honestly wasn't aware Cesar was considered this way until now. I used to watch him though. I think I've seen Victoria once, and I have to agree with Gina- I can't take them seriously wearing high heels.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> That being said, I find offense with any trainer that sees women as automatically lower in the "pack".


Is that what CM states? lol I don't follow him. just thinking who had the last laugh in the divorce settlement .. the more yall talk about him the more it just so unreal. I don't think animals care if your male or female, think they respond to your character


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I'd rather go on a date with Victoria, if that is the question. I feel this way because, 1) I like my chances, and 2) I fear I would be blinded by the reflection off of Cesar's teeth.


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

Kikopup... oh wait, that wasn't an option.

I don't know, I like both Victoria and Cesar, I really think it all depends on the issue you are having with the dog as to which one I'd pick.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Victoria. I have seen firsthand what Cesar's techniques do to a dog, and it is heartbreaking. 

Plus, the fact that anyone can say he can read dogs or must have been a dog seriously blows my mind. I showed the Holly video to 5 adults who have little to no experience with dogs, and one 4 year old. Every single one of them saw that bite coming at least a minute before it happened.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Was it Cesar who "fixed" a sheltie's fear of the lawnmower (i.e. freaked it the hell out and caused it to totally shut down) by TYING it to the lawnmower while mowing?

Victoria Stilwell, any day. She generally has the right idea about things, even if she began as a TV personality. Milan has some good ideas about exercise and being calm and assertive, but I wouldn't want him anywhere near my dog.

There's still a whole list of positive trainers I'd prefer to either of these two.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MustangMark said:


> There doesn't seem to be any middle ground when reading about these two. I can find positives with both personalities, but most people seem to be in one camp or the other. I'm curious to hear the opinions of people on this forum. Be sure to include why you feel the way you do.


Neither.

I'm a shaper. Neither of them do much in the way of shaping. That seems to be a Karen Pryor-style method, with some Emily Larlham or Susan Garrett...if it must be attributed to a trainer(s). At least, Pryor was the first one I remember reading that mentioned it.

When there's a shaping-focused trainer on TV, let me know! 

I'm also a calming signals person - so that aligns me more with Turid Rugaas.



RabbleFox said:


> Caesar's calm energy principle is something that I think everyone should abide by. Nobody's reactive dog is going to calm down if the person at the other end of the leash is trembling with nervous energy. I believe dogs can sense emotions like that and they can feed off those kind of energies.


How is that his principle?

That's just how dogs work. They can feed of emotions (it's information to them about the situation), but that's not "his" thing. 

That's the thing about these "trainer wars". They try to claim things are theirs when it's really just the dog's inate abilities, instincts, and capacity to learn that they are hijacking as their own.




Crantastic said:


> The guy who very recently said that a dog puts its feet on both sides of the bowl when it eats because it's trying to dominate the bowl?


Wait...what?

So, if Wally lies down, he's submitting to the bowl? I don't even...


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

KBLover said:


> So, if Wally lies down, he's submitting to the bowl? I don't even...


Cesar once diagnosed a dog with light OCD as "dominating the light". If it weren't for the fact that so many people damage their dogs with his techniques, I would have laughed myself right into an aneurysm.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

re the bowl thing..its not "dominating" the bowl just owning it standing over something is a "this is mine, and I aint sharing" type of body language, no different then closed and open body language with people. we "own" things at the daycare to prevent dog/dog incidents ie fence fighting we will use that sort of body language to "own" the fence and guess what? the dogs go "oh..your fence. .ok I will play in the yard instead!" so re the bowl again, in a person you are dining with is eating hunching over his plate arms framing either side, your going to get the idea he doesn't share unless your just really dense lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Miss Bugs said:


> re the bowl thing..its not "dominating" the bowl just owning it standing over something is a "this is mine, and I aint sharing" type of body language, no different then closed and open body language with people. we "own" things at the daycare to prevent dog/dog incidents ie fence fighting we will use that sort of body language to "own" the fence and guess what? the dogs go "oh..your fence. .ok I will play in the yard instead!" so re the bowl again, in a person you are dining with is eating hunching over his plate arms framing either side, your going to get the idea he doesn't share unless your just really dense lol.


Well. Yeah. But that's an insecurity thing. If the dog is insecure, the actual answer that I would expect from a trainer and a professional is MAKING THE DOG SECURE ENOUGH not to be afraid of losing his meal, rather than teaching it that it can't 'have' anything. I mean, honestly. It's not rocket science. It is a pride thing, though. "I don't want my dog to think he can have things! That bowl is MINE AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE IT IF I WANT!" It's foolishness.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Here's the follow-up with Holly, that dog that bit Cesar (after giving him TONS of warnings):






In this, he talks about the dog dominating the bowl (around 4:45 in). He won't let Holly eat without messing with her. He calls her "dog food aggressive" rather than a resource guarder, and jerks her away from the food rather than playing trading games (which work to CURE resource guarding). And if you watch his pit bull, that dog seems very unsure around him (it even goes belly-up at one point, around 2:30 in, when Cesar gets annoyed at it for trying to play). Almost all of the dogs are throwing out appeasement signals galore -- they're nervous around this guy (especially the pit and that scruffy guy Cesar tries to play with at 6:17). Basically, this video is a whole lot of crap.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Well. Yeah. But that's an insecurity thing. If the dog is insecure, the actual answer that I would expect from a trainer and a professional is MAKING THE DOG SECURE ENOUGH not to be afraid of losing his meal, rather than teaching it that it can't 'have' anything. I mean, honestly. It's not rocket science. It is a pride thing, though. "I don't want my dog to think he can have things! That bowl is MINE AND I SHOULD BE ABLE TO TAKE IT IF I WANT!" It's foolishness.


I HATE that. The dog's stuff is the dog's stuff. I gave it to him, it's his. Do I treat resource guarding when it pops up? Absolutely! It's still the dog's stuff.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> I HATE that. The dog's stuff is the dog's stuff. I gave it to him, it's his. Do I treat resource guarding when it pops up? Absolutely! It's still the dog's stuff.


Yep. My dogs have crates. Not 'my dogs are put in crates'. My dogs HAVE crates. The crates are THEIR space. Now, if I couldn't reach in to get a bowl or whatever, I'd be addressing it, but I still treat it as THEIR space, and respect it as such - and make the other dogs respect each other's. I... really get bent out of shape by the power tripping that goes on with some dog owners. It's just so DUMB and pointless and really says something about their personality. And what it says is BAD.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

He's teaching her to guard! Hey, this big mean guy yanks on me and let's other dogs eat my food. Why not make her feel as if they're isn't a reason to guard and that she's safe? Goodness.


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## chubby (Aug 18, 2011)

MustangMark said:


> There doesn't seem to be any middle ground when reading about these two. I can find positives with both personalities, but most people seem to be in one camp or the other. I'm curious to hear the opinions of people on this forum. Be sure to include why you feel the way you do.


I really like Victoria Stilwell  From what I gathered in the shows she uses positive reinforcement and doesn't utilize positive punishment methods. There was one episode where she was providing nutritional advice which I didn't agree on 100%, but in training, she seems effective.


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## chubby (Aug 18, 2011)

I never understood why people think they have to make the dog feel like nothing belongs to them? Butters has her own toys, bed, food bowl, water bowl, none of which I take away from her for the fun of it. I can put my hand in her bowl, I can take her toy away, I can lie in her crate, and it doesn't bother her, because she knows I'm not there to take away things she values, but to provide them, and if she has something dangerous, she's cool with dropping them because I trained her to 'drop it'. What does dominance or power have anything to do with it? I'm glad most people on this forum are on the same page, but some people I come across still think 'being alpha' is how to be a dog owner


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Here's the follow-up with Holly, that dog that bit Cesar (after giving him TONS of warnings):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hate that Holly ended up there, and I hate seeing Junior. I want to steal that baby and teach him being a dog is OK. 

Cesar will be in my city the 3rd. I tried to win tickets with no success. They had a meet and greet and I was hoping to deliver a clever zinger about Holly, but no such luck.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Is that what CM states? lol I don't follow him. just thinking who had the last laugh in the divorce settlement .. the more yall talk about him the more it just so unreal. I don't think animals care if your male or female, think they respond to your character


A lot of "pack theory" is man orientated. It always ends up being the woman who babies the dog and ruins him. I have nothing against male trainers and I don't hold female trainers in higher regard just because they are women! But I think its silly to blame a sex for a dog's behavior. All people in the house have a hand in training the dog whether they know it or not.



KBLover said:


> How is that his principle?
> 
> That's just how dogs work. They can feed of emotions (it's information to them about the situation), but that's not "his" thing.
> 
> That's the thing about these "trainer wars". They try to claim things are theirs when it's really just the dog's inate abilities, instincts, and capacity to learn that they are hijacking as their own.


I guess its not his principle. But it is what he says on his show. So people probably associate him with it, as I do. I have also heard this in our positive reenforcement obedience/agility classes so it isn't just him.

Poor Holly. In that "recovery" video I didn't even see food aggression. He was correcting her for eating like I always see Labs eat. Any Lab I've met has been a gulper.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Also, I'd try to gulp my food quickly too, if there was a guy standing beside me jerking me away from it every few moments.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Is that what CM states? lol I don't follow him. just thinking who had the last laugh in the divorce settlement .. the more yall talk about him the more it just so unreal. I don't think animals care if your male or female, think they respond to your character


I've never heard him say that. I have one of his books and in it he specifically states that in his home country they feel that way, but he does not share that view!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

He was worse before than he is now. From here:



> Cesar says he was happy to exchange vows— he believed in family—but saw his wife more as a necessary encumbrance than as an equal partner. Ilusion knew her husband's rural upbringing was culturally very different from her middle-class Mexican-American youth (her dad owns a precision machine business). Still, she was surprised by how coldly judgmental her new husband was. "Cesar didn't know better," she says now. "He was raised that women are last on the food chain. You feed everyone else first, including the dog."
> 
> At the time, Cesar says, he believed he was fulfilling the man's role: working to make money to feed his family. But he was never around, and when he did come home, "If he didn't get what he wanted, he was verbally abusive," Ilusion says, "screaming at the top of his lungs."
> 
> When their first son, Andre, was one year old, Ilusion was rushed to the hospital for emergency gall bladder surgery. She almost died, she says, but Cesar didn't visit her until days after the surgery. "He came to visit for two hours, but he was like, `I can't believe you're sick.' He was so annoyed." And the day she came home, "He's like, `I've got to get back to my dogs.' " Not long after, Ilusion told Cesar goodbye. He was stunned.


This is more recent:



> Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”
> 
> Mr. Millan’s sexism is laughable; his ethology is outdated.


I can look up more stuff later, perhaps, but from what I've heard, he's no longer as bad as he used to be, but he still has some weird ideas about women.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Yes in his book he talks about how horrible he was to his wife in the beginning. He admits that. He never went in to detail on how horrible he actually was though. That is so terrible!!

However I kinda agree with the last statement....on average...woman do offere affection more often and more abundance then men and men are more likely to discipline than give affection. Im not saying its a rule, but I think on average he is kind of right. Woman are wired differently. We make jokes all the time about it, men and woman are completely different..lol.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

The misogyny is ironic, considering that some of the most brilliant minds in the training universe are women. Regardless of how he grew up or whatever pretense you put on a statement such as "women aren't wired the same" you'd think in experience he'd see how many women are involved in training. And it seems more women in general are dog people. I think even on our own little forum here a vast majority of posters are women.. though that could just explain say that women like to use the internet.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

...I've never heard that before.. and after reading those statements I feel sick to my stomach... :/ Agreed that, cultural or not, he should really keep those views to himself in a society we have today. It's uncalled for.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I didn't really realize how common the dominance thing has gotten. . .I was thumbing through a hunting magazine this morning, and the dog training column was how to recognize when your dog is trying to dominate you. Like licking you or leaning on your legs. Or whining. Which should all be dealt with with "a hard collar correction", hard enough so the dog licks his lips and looks away momentarily, but if he looks away too long or tries to roll over, you should correct him even more harshly so he doesn't think he can get away with "taking control of the training session"! I mean, I know hunt training is unpleasant but I didn't think they drank the dominance koolaid.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Which should all be dealt with with "a hard collar correction", hard enough so the dog licks his lips and looks away momentarily, but if he looks away too long or tries to roll over, you should correct him even more harshly so he doesn't think he can get away with "taking control of the training session"!


There are dominant freaks in all training programs not just hunting.

I can see why people think hunt training is unpleasant. As I've said before with old school bird dog trainers I never heard the dominance factor brought up.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> you'd think in experience he'd see how many women are involved in training.


Has the guy ever been to an OB trial ? ... I mean, like, as a spectator ?

Dang, now I have to knock the image of him as an actual competitor outta my brain :doh:. Lordy, imagine that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh, but those women don't use nearly enough "discipline" and give way too much affection, dontcha know?  That's why their dogs aren't really trained. . .must be an optical illusion or something .


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Perhaps I'll venture down to the stadium he is at and let Shambles loose. Where is your man god now, Cesar?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

If I had to choose, Victoria Stillwell, if only because she trains positive. Never watched her show. Between these two the choice isn't hard, and seeing that I intensely dislike Cesar Millan and his negative approach... Yeah, Victoria.


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## Gina_1978 (Jun 3, 2012)

I had never seen that episode where Cesar gets bitten by Holly...Wow.I just watched it on youtube! What was he thinking???








Now I know what you are all talking about,I am shocked,because I hadent seen episodes like that.I had seen many (I thought I had seen them _*all*_),but never where he kicked or hurt a dog etc.

Who puts food down for their dog to eat and then picks the bowl up just because?? The dog was eating,leave it alone..if it only gets aggressive when you snatch it´s freakin food,then dont snatch the food,find another way to fix the issue...is it that hard? My 4 year old was here whilst I watched it and said "mum,if the dog wanted to bite him for taking his food away,why didnt he just leave the food where it was and not get bitten?"








He obviously provoked the situation and I was actually embaressed for Cesar.He thinks she has given in to him and says "See,now she´s relaxed and...." _BAM!_ She bites his hand







Then he says "well I didnt see that coming".
Obviously not his brightest moment and he could have avoided it by leaving the dog alone and using other less itimidating methods.I think that in this episode,what he did was dangerous and I hope people arent copying his behaviour with their dogs and getting hurt!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Gina_1978 said:


> I had never seen that episode where Cesar gets bitten by Holly...Wow.I just watched it on youtube! What was he thinking???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this was a particularly stupid episode and I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence. I actually consider food agression one of the easiest things to fix, and I certainly wouldn't do it the way he did. Stupid, just really stupid. :der:


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## TRDmom (Mar 3, 2013)

Avery said:


> However, I think that people are much more likely to get hurt/mess up their dogs if they do this with Caesar's methods rather than Victoria's.


This is kind of the point for me. Many people watch these shows for tips on how to train their dogs and they may or may not seek help elsewhere. In this case, Victoria offers an approach that most people would be able to do successfully. Caesar, on the other hand, has a warning before each show that you should not attempt these techniques without the guidance of a professional dog trainer.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

I watched the original Holly segment on YouTube, too, and I was so distressed. Like I was trying not to cry at how much he was bullying her when she was giving him every calming signal in the book and growling to ask him nicely to please back off. She was really frightened! Of course she bit him! It wasn't even about the food at that point.

I had to go give Lincoln some extra snuggles because I couldn't believe someone would treat a dog that way and I needed to reassure myself that my dog was lucky enough to live in a house that never would.


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## Gina_1978 (Jun 3, 2012)

If you back an animal into a corner,it´s going to attack you..that is their most basic and natural defense system kicking in.It´s NOT agression.I wish people would stop confusing fear with violence when it comes to dogs 

It´s similar to bull fighting! Here,people say "Oh but bulls are SO so agressive! They are better of dead anyway!! Look what they do to people!"...uumm,yes! When you put them in a ring with no escape,blur their vision with vaseline,sand down their horns and have a dude on a horse stab them in the neck muscles over and over so they cannot lift their head whilst another dude sticks banderillas in his back,the bull is going to be scared and desperately do what ever he thinks he needs to do to survive.He will kill anyone in his way..obviously.
Now,go see a bull grazing in a field....TOTALLY.DIFFERENT.ANIMAL! Why? Because it doesnt feel threatened! People can be IDIOTS! 

The same goes for any animal.If it feels threatened,it is going to attack you..simple as that.Holly was obviously scared and felt threatened,so her basic survival instincts just kick in.As I said,I feel embarresed for Cesar now..you could see that poor dog was VERY uncomfortable and "asking" him to leave her alone,but of course,the camera was there and he had to do his "show"...ugh 

Edited to add: I´m not saying that there arent dogs out there who are aggressive just because..because there are dogs with issues.But many times,people are just reading their dogs all wrong.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I would have to pick both. Victoria has her good points and bad. Ceasar also has good and bad. 
Ceasar- likes- dogs need exercise , need stimulation. 
dislikes- when he 'touches' a dog. I feel that is setting up people for a bite. Dog is on alert and all of a sudden, BAM! with a pinch. Done by an amatuer I can see where a dog would take that aggression and go after the owner. 

Victoria- likes offer some good ideas on how to stop dogs from doing certain things Air horn strapped to garbage can to stop dog from getting into garbage other ideas that seem owners are more likely to follow Another idea. dog peeing in house Take dog outside more was her solution. DUH! I say but the owners of the dogs could not figure that out.
dislikes- her voice and how she goes ballastic over the smallest things. Overreaction.

I take ideas from various trainers and then apply what I feel the dog(student) would benefit the most from the training sessions.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I agree with you Gina...I learned the hard way people can't read animals. We had to make the painful decision to rehome our dog after one night we walked the trashed down, he always went with us, we made the mistake of its late, no one will be out, we went without leash...well someone came out and up behind us, he startled all of us but not as much as Ryder, he went in to instant protection mode, he got in front of us barking and lunging, not bite lunge but the hop forward and back lunge while barking, the guy threw something at him, Ryder ran back and we grabbed him....the end....Brandon apologized later to the guy, no harm done...well a few days later landlord showed up to question about our extremely aggressive dog, and that he is a danger and a threat to the veteran community....we were pretty shocked, Ryder never got close to the guy and only barked like a madman, furthermore this guy had been around Ryder before, but it didn't matter from that point on he was dangerous and couldn't be trusted. 

The point of this painful story is they are animals and even the best dog will act out when afraid or think harm may come to them or their people! I learned that very fast and painfully and now have sense studied more about reading your dog and try to teach other people that just because a dog growls doesn't make him an aggressive dog, take the time to figure out what's going on, what doesn't make sense to us, makes perfect sense to your dog!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> The point of this painful story is they are animals and even the best dog will act out when afraid or think harm may come to them or their people! I learned that very fast and painfully and now have sense studied more about reading your dog and try to teach other people that just because a dog growls doesn't make him an aggressive dog, take the time to figure out what's going on, what doesn't make sense to us, makes perfect sense to your dog!


What am I missing here, it's late and I'm assuming dark and somebody walked up behind you and got close enough to scare all. Then your dog reacted in a perfectly accepted way and the dog had to be rehomed. I would have kept dog and my family and dog would have rehomed ourselves. (I know easy for me to say and not always possible) Hope you found a loving home for that dog to protect.

If I had a dog that would not react to a jerk approaching me late at night I probably would rehome that dog. The dog knowing the guy means little because man's scent might not have reached Ryder and at night the sight of man also was not in Ryder's social program. 

The big mistake was yours, but this is a mistake that anybody could have made so no need to feel guilty. Sometimes unplanned stuff just happens


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Yes, I completely know the mistake was mine, I just wasn't r thinking...we live in a veteran community, they are all older people, they aren't out late, it was almost midnight, I made a terrible decision. 

We didn't have an option to move, we were lucky we found this place, we were living with my parents and it took us months to find a place to allow pets and we had to pay extra. 

I love his new home though, they keep us updated and we have got to visit a few times.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

domiance is the necessary excuse when you don't want to spend the time to train


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

MustangMark said:


> There doesn't seem to be any middle ground when reading about these two. I can find positives with both personalities, but most people seem to be in one camp or the other. I'm curious to hear the opinions of people on this forum. Be sure to include why you feel the way you do.


Thoughts I'd pop in since I was just looking into people's opinions. I don't think they're comparable because they're coming from different areas. Stilwell is a trainer, I've seen better ones one youtube and in person but anyways and Cesar is more behavioural. I can't really compare the two because they're bringing different things. Personally I can't see how the 'dominance' theory is 'debunked' because honestly every time I see a group of dogs released in an open area to interact I see right there. I've noticed it ever since I was a kid, even if you want to refer to it with a different name. Dogs all bring an energy to the area and it affects how other dogs react to them. I don't like that people watch any tv show and misunderstands and takes it to some other level. Like someone sees a few episodes or even one episode and sees Millan put a dog on his side and they assume this is his resolution for everything. He doesn't claim to be a dog trainer, doesn't attempt to train any dog tricks and essentially is for similar things with positive training models. Like yelling is not beneficial to the dog. Addressing the dog with anger or frustration is not helping. He brings an energy concept to the table that is beneficial when dealing with dogs and he acknowledges that different scenarios require different solutions. 

This is a pretty long reply but yea...I'm 100% for positive training but quite frankly if you're going to be dealing with a dog that is not in a state for focus on food or toys and is in a state and cannot focus on positive training different methods need to be looked into. Which is a real issue that leads dogs to be put down. I feel like a lot of the people I meet will think these two styles are the same and they hear the word dominance and they picture this wrong stance of needing to be forceful with their dog all the time and they raise their voice and push and force them to do things and they intimidate and then wonder why it doesn't work.

Edit: Basically, not everyone can figure out how to approach a dog with Cesar's concept because he's not training the dogs and most can't do what he's doing because he's going based on what he sees with that dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You can intimidate, bully, and even hurt a dog without raising your voice at all. Cesar has dragged dogs calmly; does that make him better than someone who drags a dog while yelling? Also, sometimes it's obvious that his anger is bubbling just below the surface. Dogs can sense that.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You can intimidate, bully, and even hurt a dog without raising your voice at all. Cesar has dragged dogs calmly; does that make him better than someone who drags a dog while yelling? Also, sometimes it's obvious that his anger is bubbling just below the surface. Dogs can sense that.


I've sat while a dog yanks on the other end and just waited out until he just stopped and relaxed. Took like less than a minute. My cousin got this puppy that was terrified of everything and I would sit him sometimes and rather than coddle him I just took him outside on a leash and he was omg with all the sounds but we sat, he calmed down we moved forward and kept going and he chilled out periodically we stopped he got a treat, petting was nice. I suppose it depends what you take from it because I've been around dogs all my life and I agree that if you have a pup and you can do positive training right off the bat then thats great but sometimes it's not the case and dogs enjoy the same concept of exercise, discipline and affection, just like kiddies (clearly not in the same way but similar idea), you want your kids out there doing things, you want them to know the rules and you want them to know love.

Edit: I feel like if more people could sit and look at a dog and see the difference between fear aggression, being unsure, real aggression etc. and could react and help accordingly, less dogs would be put to sleep or just kept locked up because people just accept this, which just makes it worse. I feel like that's what another person would have possibly done with my pap but I mean I just keep going with him. See more dogs. Find more people willing to interact with him.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

CuddlyKat said:


> I suppose it depends what you take from it because I've been around dogs all my life and I agree that if you have a pup and you can do positive training right off the bat then thats great but sometimes it's not the case and dogs enjoy the same concept of exercise, discipline and affection, just like kiddies (clearly not in the same way but similar idea), you want your kids out there doing things, you want them to know the rules and you want them to know love.


These two are not contradictory. Frankly implying they are is kind of... well, ridiculous. 

If my dogs didn't have rules, discipline and boundaries they wouldn't be... trained. Training 99.9% of dogs and 100% of puppies does not need to involve anything more than positive reenforcement. 

Frankly, Cesar's problem is that he doesn't understand dogs, or know how to train, or get dog behavior. Can I take good things from him? Yep! Be calm and exercise your dog. 

The rest? Pffft. No. If you're going to use corrections and aversives and have one of those rare dogs who needs them, use them, but he doesn't even do THAT right. He just shuts down dogs, gets bitten, and scares the crap out of them. TEACH them or rehabilitate them? NOT EVEN KIND OF.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

I was looking at some new positive reinforcement training and they disagreed with using 'ahah' or no at any time. I was thinking about that.

Edit: Clearly there's results with his methods and the dogs seem find and have benefited. I don't see his dogs looking traumatised. So like I said, guess it depends what you take from it and it's not something for anyone who just watches any tv program to pick up and use because it's not a training method, like I said it my first post. So you can't really compare it as a training program.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

CuddlyKat said:


> I was looking at some new positive reinforcement training and they disagreed with using 'ahah' or no at any time. I was thinking about that.


I have decided those trainers are as nutty as anyone else. Extremes are dumb, in general. Jack. Jack will shut down at ANYTHING, from "Nope!" to an interruptor noise like 'eh'. I Know this about him. He just IS that soft, and mostly I think it's a result of having WAY too harsh for him training methods used. I know this about him and I adapt around it, because frankly anything more crushes him and puts an end to learning. Fortunately, he doesn't do anything wrong, either, because he refuses to offer behavior. Because he's just that mentally screwed from his previous training.

The others? Eh. I say 'nope' as a noreward marker when we're training, I clap my hands and say 'eh' to interrupt the puppies being morons and getting into things they shouldn't. I think most people here DO, to be honest. Purely positive is kind of a myth when you're living with anything you're teaching. Some version of 'that's not going to happen' gets communicated, even if it's only to pause them and show them what you do want (ie: redirecting them). I even use mild leash corrections on the dogs who are okay with it, and MOST of my communication with Bug takes on some element of the physical, because she's deaf. 

The thing is? None of what I do is painful. None of it's meant to hurt or scare them. THAT is the line for me. If you can't train at least most dogs (and all puppies) without pain or fear, you need some new training yourself.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CuddlyKat said:


> Edit: Clearly there's results with his methods and the dogs seem find and have benefited. I don't see his dogs looking traumatised.


Are you basing this on watching episodes of his reality show? Because we all know how real those are. Not to mention, everyone he works with has to sign a non-disclosure agreement. It's hard to find info about dogs he has trained, although a few stories have come out. Here's one.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I have decided those trainers are as nutty as anyone else. Extremes are dumb, in general. Jack. Jack will shut down at ANYTHING, from "Nope!" to an interruptor noise like 'eh'. I Know this about him. He just IS that soft, and mostly I think it's a result of having WAY too harsh for him training methods used. I know this about him and I adapt around it, because frankly anything more crushes him and puts an end to learning. Fortunately, he doesn't do anything wrong, either, because he refuses to offer behavior. Because he's just that mentally screwed from his previous training.
> 
> The others? Eh. I say 'nope' as a noreward marker when we're training, I clap my hands and say 'eh' to interrupt the puppies being morons and getting into things they shouldn't. I think most people here DO, to be honest. Purely positive is kind of a myth when you're living with anything you're teaching. Some version of 'that's not going to happen' gets communicated, even if it's only to pause them and show them what you do want (ie: redirecting them). I even use mild leash corrections on the dogs who are okay with it, and MOST of my communication with Bug takes on some element of the physical, because she's deaf.
> 
> The thing is? None of what I do is painful. None of it's meant to hurt or scare them. THAT is the line for me. If you can't train at least most dogs (and all puppies) without pain or fear, you need some new training yourself.


And I don't believe in hurting or scaring dogs in training. And I do neither. But even thing I don't need to do I don't see as abusive. I think that's an extreme. Example: Rather than yanking on leashes while the dog is pulling to tap them to interrupt and get them to look at you, I think that's a lot more kind that a dog rushing down the street choking himself. Dogs being scared out of their minds of anything like a certain area and walking them there, if they have a panic attack, I don't see as having them stand there and chill out till they relax as being abusive. Dogs that are to that level of fear aren't happy dogs and can't live scared, look how fine they are after they figure nothing is happening, this place doesn't have to be bad and I'll get a treat. It's like the prong collar, no I will not get one for one of my dogs because one is 10 lbs and one is dopey, soft in personality and 6 months old. But I've seen other dogs benefit from it and it's not hurting them. Especially for breeds bred to take bear bites and bulls bucking. All dogs aren't the same. I've looked through the videos and episodes and actively looked for reasons to disapprove of Cesar's methods but I just don't. I don't think people should jump up and try to follow because frankly not everyone can pull it off and especially not if you think it's a training method. Which I find a lot of people feel that way.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Are you basing this on watching episodes of his reality show? Because we all know how real those are. Not to mention, everyone he works with has to sign a non-disclosure agreement. It's hard to find info about dogs he has trained, although a few stories have come out. Here's one.


If I knew this was going to start a discussion/argument I wouldn't have bothered posting. I posted specifically to state that he's not a dog trainer and I don't think people should take it as such. [Edit: meaning I cannot pick between the two this topic was talking about because it's not comparable. I've seen and met better and more successful trainers than Stilwell but the concept of positive training I'm all for.] It's kind of like the horse whisperer and how not just anyone can decide they were gonna take his job (not equating the two for quality).


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Stillwell by far and a way. Sometimes she seems really cheesy to me, and her wardrobe choice for meeting and dealing with large difficult dogs sometimes gets me chuckling (heels? Really? Yeah, they're low heels, but still...) but at least her methods are safe and effective and she focuses more on the root of the dog's problems: their owners/handlers.


Milan, I can't stand. He sickens me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Discussions are the point of this whole place. 

If he's not a trainer, then what is he? He's certainly not a behaviorist. He doesn't have any credentials at all, in fact. Is he a "dog rehabilitator"? What does that even mean?

There have been many threads here over the years with video proof of him hanging and dragging dogs. But most of the bad stuff he does nowadays isn't physical -- it's psychological. He bullies dogs into "submission." He shuts them down. And he looks very calm while doing so, and the dogs look very calm when he's bullying them, so it looks like it works. That's the magic of TV.

I'm always so amazed that people think everything on Cesar's show is the gospel truth, while we wouldn't dream of believing that The Bachelor or Jersey Shore or even Survivor or The Amazing Race is all true. Is it because he's on National Geographic? I honestly don't understand.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Discussions are the point of this whole place.
> 
> If he's not a trainer, then what is he? He's certainly not a behaviorist. He doesn't have any credentials at all, in fact. Is he a "dog rehabilitator"? What does that even mean?
> 
> ...


I clearly don't know when to quit because I'm responding to this. Clearly I know discussion is to be had on this because it is a forum but since I mistakenly wrote my opinion that he's not a dog trainer and people cannot pick up random things and decide to use it on their dogs I've been defending my opinions because he's apparently an animal abuser because of some hidden message of bullying in the show. I've never said he was some gift to deliver dogs on earth. Point was just that I find it's not possible to compare him to positive trainers. Whatever happens behind the scenes I can't attest to because just like things that are hidden there's always ppl who have negatives to say, just like when celebs have people pop and say they had sex with someone and they're having their child. All I can speak on is what I have seen and the concept behind it makes sense. Because if you sit down with a dog that is spazing out and you relax and even just hold the dog by a leash or collar the dog will calm down. No intimidation, nothing. It's what helps me when my puppy spazes out and starts jumping and biting. I use a mix of just hold his leash or collar and just calmly stay and when he's declining I say sit. I've dealt with aggressive dogs and pulling them off another dog and just lying them down does not have to be some ugly negative experience. It's just lying and then he just lies there until he's relaxed, isn't growling at other dogs, tongue is out and he's being petted and he's chilled out and then he's as calm as he gets, he gets up and is by the same dogs. I can't speak on behalf of whomever else. Just saying how you handle and are around a dog and respond makes a lot of difference. I don't abuse my dogs. They eat, get love and a lot more that some people have. They love the dog park and swimming and walks. They like going to their training classes, love treats, the clicker sound and do quite well with training even with distraction of dogs and a pond etc. No one can tell me I'm abusing my dogs. I just also think that the concept of energy around animals is very much real and it affects how things go in dog ownership. 

I think I've trailed off enough now..... >_> Gonna stop...I tend to go off onto tangents....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I'm always so amazed that people think everything on Cesar's show is the gospel truth, while we wouldn't dream of believing that The Bachelor or Jersey Shore or even Survivor or The Amazing Race is all true. Is it because he's on National Geographic? I honestly don't understand.


I do not understand either.

I have stated before that I am neutral on CM but in my opinion he is a trainer, I think actually with more experience than VS.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> I dunno, I just can't bring myself to sit down and watch a man kick, hit, shock, slap, punch, throw and hang dogs.
> The same as his physical abuse churns my stomach, I can't handle watching him stare dogs down and growl at them.


I've never once seen him do any of those things. Maybe we're watching different shows? I've never seen anything close to "physical abuse" on his show.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't like this one much (he drags a Saint Bernard up the stairs -- and it's on a flat collar, not a harness or anything):






It "works," but the dog is obviously shut down. He does not teach the dog that stairs aren't scary. He bullies it into going up and down the stairs.

Also, here's how they get some of their "money shots" of aggressive dogs:






It's TV; it's entertainment. It's fun to them.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

HerdersForMe said:


> I've never once seen him do any of those things. Maybe we're watching different shows? I've never seen anything close to "physical abuse" on his show.


I can't find the link, but someone made a montage full of clips from his show of him literally kicking dogs to "redirect" them. There's also PLENTY of video evidence of physical abuse.


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## Taisce (Mar 20, 2013)

It's interesting to see how much everyone hates Cesar.

I don't really watch either, but I tend to watch him when I do. Knowing how much he cares about his animals, I think that a lot of the problems are edited to make it look more interesting. I do use some of the things he teaches in training my dog... Like not letting her be excited when she needs to be calm. I don't give her her food unless she's sitting and calm, which she does automatically now. Before she would jump and try to take it from my hands, I keep a calm... Persona (I won't call it energy) whenever I do anything with her and need her to stay relaxed and calm. Like with walks. 

This is a man that tried to kill himself after his dog died, was quoted as saying: "Daddy was my Tibet, my Himalaya, my Gouda, my Buddha, my source of calmness,"

And has always been more about retraining the people so they take charge in their life and with their pets rather than letting them run all over them...

So, I don't agree with everything he does and think that all training regimen need to be custom for the dog and what works best with the dog. I don't think he's a monster either though...


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I can't find the link, but someone made a montage full of clips from his show of him literally kicking dogs to "redirect" them. There's also PLENTY of video evidence of physical abuse.


Guess I've seen the wrong episodes then. I admit, I haven't watched a lot of him.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

HerdersForMe said:


> Guess I've seen the wrong episodes then. I admit, I haven't watched a lot of him.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuinToBgUco

That's the link.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Love how he says you need to learn to use your foot "not to kick, just to firmly touch" a dog. Sure.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Love how he says you need to learn to use your foot "not to kick, just to firmly touch" a dog. Sure.


With force. 

I have to touch my deaf dog on a fairly regular basis and, um, there's never any swing involved, regardless of the body part I use. Also? SHE"S DEAF.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

And the bit at 3 minutes in where he picks up the bulldog by her neck, wrestles her for a while, then pins her on her side... saying he's attempting to "relax" her. Right, and I'm sure she understands that, because dogs who pin other dogs are just trying to calm them down, not to get at their opponent's sensitive areas.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> And the bit at 3 minutes in where he picks up the bulldog by her neck, wrestles her for a while, then pins her on her side... saying he's attempting to "relax" her. Right, and I'm sure she understands that, because dogs who pin other dogs are just trying to calm them down, not to get at their opponent's sensitive areas.


But Cran! If you pet them or talk softly or give them a treat to teach calm, you're coddling them and your dog runs your life!

(that man infuriates me. I'm not even close to the all positive trainer as most people here, but - Did I mention finding him infuriating yet? If not let me. ARGH.)


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

There's really no such thing as purely positive, and I think you're closer to the norm here than you think. I am not all positive, either; I use leash corrections sometimes, verbal corrections... I have never used an e-collar, but I am okay with it in certain situations (like aversion training for snakes or other dangerous things -- in that situation, I am fine with scaring a dog if it keeps it from getting killed). I will not hit/kick/hang a dog in the name of "training," and I discarded all of that "alpha" crap about pinning or rolling dogs ages ago.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> There's really no such thing as purely positive, and I think you're closer to the norm here than you think. I am not all positive, either; I use leash corrections sometimes, verbal corrections... I have never used an e-collar, but I am okay with it in certain situations (like aversion training for snakes or other dangerous things -- in that situation, I am fine with scaring a dog if it keeps it from getting killed). I will not hit/kick/hang a dog in the name of "training," and I discarded all of that "alpha" crap about pinning or rolling dogs ages ago.


Yeah, that actually does sound almost exactly like me. I'm not horrified by much there is a GULF between an aversive or correction and an act of violence. Cesar is WAY over the line into 'acts of violence' for me.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CuddlyKat said:


> Basically, not everyone can figure out how to approach a dog with Cesar's concept because he's not training the dogs and most can't do what he's doing because he's going based on what he sees with that dog.


If he's not training the dogs, then what in the world is he doing?


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

sassafras said:


> If he's not training the dogs, then what in the world is he doing?


He is ruining dogs and their relationship to their handler. Trying to prove his manliness by abusing animals?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

sassafras said:


> If he's not training the dogs, then what in the world is he doing?


I guess you can call it training because it teaches a dog to look out for that guy who always kicks you. 

The real problem for me is the fact that a lot of the dogs he trains are leash reactive. We all know that can be corrected using positive reinforcement techniques. No kicking necessary.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Cesar by far.

The defining line on this is that Me or the Dog episode with Benjy the Cockerspaniel. 

Victoria could not help it. Find a clip of that episode and watch how the family goes into tears in the end. Vic gets called in, uses that "positive method" as to what Millan's Critiques say he should do and guess what, not only does the dog still bite the members of it's family after she leaves, she even suggested that there was no hope and the dog needed to be put down. Most of her fans think Cesar wouldn't be able to do anything due to his "ignorance" and how this dog attacked 3 of members of the family on different times, the last one being the young daughter. However, anybody who watched Cesar knows that would be an easy case.

DW showed that man handle Pitbulls, Rotts, GSD's, Dobermans, and Boxers with attack issues that were even worse. One of the dogs who also was showing aggression to a young kid was a PITBULL! So it's a no brainer that if that family contacted Cesar; Cesar would come in, bring junior along, teach the family about calm assertive energy, the exercise, discipline, affection... blah2x. And if there was really "no hope" for the cockerspaniel to ever be safe with the kids, cesar would then request a swap for a member of his pack and have that cockerspaniel transfer it's energy into a working dog (he did that with a few dogs that had no hope). 

yet a cockerspaniel was too much that the only answer was to put it sleep? :clap2: to "Positive Method" 
Cesar Millan's methods may be physical but it's not inhumane or painful as most exaggerate it to be and it doesn't result into a euthanized dog. Some people are so sensitive that anything physical or strict automatically is seen as abuse, painful and inhumane. Some people must realize the value of discipline and sometimes tough rehabilitation/methods is necessary for real problems. I consider his methods to be like Tai-chi.. it's philosophies are that similar. I find the hate on him to be that ridiculous to be honest --he does not give up on the dog no matter what, he will always look for a solution to save the dog from being put down as to what the vets suggested (that throws away the inhumane methods criticized about him); he does know what he is doing because those hard cases are successful and those owners are raving about him to no end.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

cisco said:


> Cesar by far.
> 
> The defining line on this is that Me or the Dog episode with Benjy the Cockerspaniel.
> 
> Victoria could not help it. Find a clip of that episode and watch how the family goes into tears in the end. Vic gets called in, uses that "positive method" as to what Millan's Critiques say he should do and guess what, not only does the dog still bite the members of it's family after she leaves, she even suggested that there was no hope and the dog needed to be put down. Most of her fans think Cesar wouldn't be able to do anything due to his "ignorance" and how this dog attacked 3 of members of the family on different times, the last one being the young daughter. However, anybody who watched Cesar knows that would be an easy case.


That Cocker reminds me of... My own dog! My childhood companion was a semi aggressive Cocker Spaniel beast that would turn from snuggle buddy into a completely different dog in an instant. To me, the family made the right decision. I have a hard time telling people that they could have done more when their dog has actually attacked their young daughter. We put down our dog after countless nips and snaps after she mauled my mothers hand whilst trying to get her to get out from under the bed. The hand was not there to pull her out, just a friendly offering. My parents made the decision that our Cocker was too dangerous to live with four children under the age of 9. I completely agree with them and Benji's family. It's sad but sometimes you can't fix it and its not ok to rehome a dangerous dog. 

Some Cocker Spaniel lines actually suffer from a neurological problem that causes this aggression. It's unclear if meds help. I will say one thing, if my dog bites anyone severely enough to have them go to the emergency room, especially a child, we will be marching down to the vets office all by ourselves. This is an article that says a little about Cocker random aggression:

http://www.eurolupa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=10&lang=en


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> That Cocker reminds me of... My own dog! My childhood companion was a semi aggressive Cocker Spaniel beast that would turn from snuggle buddy into a completely different dog in an instant. To me, the family made the right decision. I have a hard time telling people that they could have done more when their dog has actually attacked their young daughter. We put down our dog after countless nips and snaps after she mauled my mothers hand whilst trying to get her to get out from under the bed. The hand was not there to pull her out, just a friendly offering. My parents made the decision that our Cocker was too dangerous to live with four children under the age of 9. I completely agree with them and Benji's family. It's sad but sometimes you can't fix it and its not ok to rehome a dangerous dog.
> 
> Some Cocker Spaniel lines actually suffer from a neurological problem that causes this aggression. It's unclear if meds help. I will say one thing, if my dog bites anyone severely enough to have them go to the emergency room, especially a child, we will be marching down to the vets office all by ourselves. This is an article that says a little about Cocker random aggression:
> 
> http://www.eurolupa.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9&Itemid=10&lang=en


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRg-U_OyYIw
http://www.doglistener.co.uk/aggression/cocker_rage.shtml
Like i said, if this was a real no hope Cesar would suggest a dog swap instead of a "euthanasia" like what Vic did. I mean we can all agree that pitbulls or gsd's with rage problems are more scarier than even Cocker rage and it's still can be debateable. There are still vets out there who think Pitbulls snap at their owners. People bash cesar for his treatment on dogs but when in a difficult case that guy is willing to go for months with all sorts of tries for help. Sometimes even getting the dog acupuncture...

please note that "cocker rage" is found on all dogs and it is rare. It's sometimes a misdiagnosis and it mostly comes from really bad breeding so....


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> That Cocker reminds me of... My own dog! My childhood companion was a semi aggressive Cocker Spaniel beast that would turn from snuggle buddy into a completely different dog in an instant. To me, the family made the right decision. I have a hard time telling people that they could have done more when their dog has actually attacked their young daughter. We put down our dog after countless nips and snaps after she mauled my mothers hand whilst trying to get her to get out from under the bed. The hand was not there to pull her out, just a friendly offering. My parents made the decision that our Cocker was too dangerous to live with four children under the age of 9. I completely agree with them and Benji's family. It's sad but sometimes you can't fix it and its not ok to rehome a dangerous dog.
> 
> Some Cocker Spaniel lines actually suffer from a neurological problem that causes this aggression. It's unclear if meds help. I will say one thing, if my dog bites anyone severely enough to have them go to the emergency room, especially a child, we will be marching down to the vets office all by ourselves.
> 
> ...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

cisco said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRg-U_OyYIw
> http://www.doglistener.co.uk/aggression/cocker_rage.shtml
> Like i said, if this was a real no hope Cesar would suggest a dog swap instead of a "euthanasia" like what Vic did. I mean we can all agree that pitbulls or gsd's with rage problems are more scarier than even Cocker rage and it's still can be debateable. There are still vets out there who think Pitbulls snap at their owners. People bash cesar for his treatment on dogs but when in a difficult case that guy is willing to go for months with all sorts of tries for help. Sometimes even getting the dog acupuncture...
> 
> please note that "cocker rage" is found on all dogs and it is rare. It's sometimes a misdiagnosis and it mostly comes from really bad breeding so....


I'm sorry. We made a mistake and my parents got our Cocker Spaniel from a bad breeder. Our introduction to the dog world was trial and error. We have since learned our lesson. 

The video you posted is not Cocker rage but actually reactivity. That dog is reacting to the brush and to Ceasar's handling. Frankly, it was hard to watch. I can fix that using positive reinforcement only. And your dog doesn't have to scream or be muzzled. 

As for dog swapping, no thanks. Ceasar's well balanced dogs are that way because he has intimidated them into being submissive. I'm not really into dog swapping in any case. What sort of work does he have the hopeless dogs do? Cocker with rage can be just as scary as Pitbulls/Labs/Great Danes/mix breeds with rage. Especially with children.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Cesar Millan's methods may be physical but it's not inhumane or painful as most exaggerate it to be and it doesn't result into a euthanized dog.
> 
> ...
> 
> I find the hate on him to be that ridiculous to be honest --he does not give up on the dog no matter what, he will always look for a solution to save the dog from being put down as to what the vets suggested (that throws away the inhumane methods criticized about him); he does know what he is doing because those hard cases are successful and those owners are raving about him to no end.


You are misinformed. Dogs he's worked with have definitely been euthanized later (and others rehomed) for aggression issues. It's hard to find info, because everyone who goes on the show has to sign a NDA, but a few members of this forum have personal knowledge. Hopefully someone will come along and share some, or I can look through older threads later.

Edit: Here's a case -- Cesar couldn't help this dog (and ended up suggesting full-time muzzling), and the owner later decided to have the dog "disarmed" by cutting away 4 millimeters of tooth using a CO2 laser.

And there was also Ruby -- this page discusses her appearance on the show (where she was "rehabilitated"), with this note underneath:



> Update: We have received a report that Ruby later bit a child in the home and her owners chose to have her euthanized. The vet intervened and attempted to arrange for the show to work with the family further. We don't know Ruby's fate after that.


It also mentions JonBee the jindo, who got more aggressive after his appearance on the show and was rehomed and rehabilitated by a non-Cesar trainer -- this is the last I heard of him.

Also from the 4PawsU page (note that even the show's producer reports an 80% success rate, which means 20% failure):



> Although the producer of the show has claimed an 80% success rate, I have not seen much in the way of changed behavior on the show. I do, however, see dogs with suppressed behaviors; dogs walking on very tight leashes, dogs that are stiff and immobile after being rolled onto their sides by force, dogs that are in almost every case restrained or shut down in some form or another.
> 
> Just because the dog is not barking, lunging or growling does not mean that it is calm or rehabilitated. If the dog is unable to perform without being restrained by a tight leash or otherwise, the behavior has not been changed, it has been suppressed.
> 
> ...


Remember that Dog Whisperer is a TV show. You can't believe everything you see on the news, let alone on a reality show. Be a critical thinker.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> NEITHER.... BUT if I had to pick..... I would pick Cesar soley on his ability to read dogs....


I would for some dogs, for the harder "its black or its white" dogs but i choose a kinder, gentler version of his method (no kicking or stringing up dogs etc ...)

do I think CM is the devil? no. I think he genuinely loves dogs & isnt doing this stuff because he is a vendictive, mean person that likes hurting animals ... hes just grossly misinformed. the fact that he has taken steps to educate himself proves that he is at lwast trying.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> And there was also Ruby -- this page discusses her appearance on the show (where she was "rehabilitated"), with this note underneath...


Really cool article that kind of outlines everything. I absolutely loved that video of the trained hyenas! The hyenas have been trained to offer their neck or leg to have blood drawn among a few other important behaviors. There is so much you can do with positive reinforcement training.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

RabbleFox said:


> Really cool article that kind of outlines everything. I absolutely loved that video of the trained hyenas! The hyenas have been trained to offer their neck or leg to have blood drawn among a few other important behaviors. There is so much you can do with positive reinforcement training.


Indeed. I would like to see someone try to dominate a hyena, I really would.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Indeed. I would like to see someone try to dominate a hyena, I really would.


If you think alpha rolling an aggressive dog is a bad idea, then try being a hyena's pack leader. Hahaha.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Taisce said:


> This is a man that tried to kill himself after his dog died, was quoted as saying: "Daddy was my Tibet, my Himalaya, my Gouda, my Buddha, my source of calmness,"


Now this I can relate with, I have never been the same after Izze passed away, I know this guy can be a D bag sometimes ... but this quote about his dog pretty much sums uo what Izze was to me , when it comes to this aspect I think me & him are on the same page & could relate.

Then, mere months later, his wife is like "Oh by the way, I want a divorce." Talk about cold blooded, I mean ... did she HAVE no heart? She had to have been unhappy for a long time before that, & it was no secret that Daddy's health hadnt been the best for a while, so why wait til he passed? IMO that (although totally unrelated) was horrible to do.

He is rather contrictory ... because he says all his dogs are the same to him but clearly Daddy WAS special ... not that he would admit it


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, but if you watch some of the episodes where he tries to interact with. . .Junior? I think. Is he Daddy's son or is he unrelated? Anyway, that dog ducks away and cringes every time Cesar reaches for him or gestures in his direction. Like I've said before, love is weird, I would never say that someone doesn't love their SO, kid, pet, etc. . .but sometimes we do bad things to those we love, even without realizing it. . .someone might be your "Buddha" but that doesn't mean you never hurt him.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have a dog, Buddy that will slink away & cringe sometimes when someone reaches for him too quickly, is he abused? No ... well not by me anyway. But someone who didnt know us might think he is.

Josefina sometimes will shrink away when I quickly reach for her, I dont know why. maybe it stems from an incident that happened when I had to pull her away from a snake as a youngster ... who knows? maybe she is just high strung (she is) ?


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I like some aspects of Cesar's philosophy. I like the whole calm assertive thing and how he shows owners that their attitudes and behaviour are half the problem. He really doesn't let people get away with being angry or frustrated while training which I like. The hierarchy Exercise, Discipline, Affection is good too - although I might replace discipline with training.

The big problem I see is that he usually deals with extreme cases and uses extreme techniques (all negative, flooding, intimidation). Whether or not it works for the dogs on his show is a matter for debate but those methods are definitely not required or helpful for 99% of the dog population. The owners who are struggling to teach sit, stay and loose leash walking or have mild anxiety or reactivity problems. I think the overwhelming majority of pet owners don't need those techniques and don't have enough dog sense to use them without risking damage.

I've never seen Victoria Stilwell. She seems more positively based though which I think should be the foundation and starting point for owners. If harsher techniques are necessary, better to bring in a professional.



> I have a dog, Buddy that will slink away & cringe sometimes when someone reaches for him too quickly, is he abused? No ... well not by me anyway. But someone who didnt know us might think he is.


People seem to think that any kind of skittishness is from abuse. But the truth is that _I_ startle if someone grabs at me or surprises me with quick movement. I have certainly never been abused, never even been in a physical fight. But its just instinct. Dogs have that instinct too, even magnified.


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## lforrest0913 (Apr 17, 2013)

boodog said:


> I would say that Both offer insight into how a dog will react to training.
> I watch both, and have used things from both.
> I had someone who feared their dog so bad they gave it to me.
> American dingo/pit bull mix. Crated most of it's 2 years on earth.
> ...


I agree with how you see them. Caesar's whole thing is he takes extremely poorly-behaved dogs and tries to teach them how to once again respect their owners. I would NEVER use Caesar's techniques on a fresh puppy - at least not when the puppy is totally trainable and responsive to positive reinforcement. But is it really so terribly wrong to give your dog a firm "NO!" when it's misbehaving when it knows better?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you watch videos, you can see that it's not just Junior who is nervous like that -- I posted a video of Holly at the compound earlier in the thread, and a couple of the other dogs were also nervous and threw appeasement behaviors galore when Cesar focused his attention on them.

As for his wife, he did not treat her well for much of their marriage. I don't consider her "cold-blooded" to leave him at all. I posted this earlier in this thread, but from here:



> Cesar says he was happy to exchange vows— he believed in family—but saw his wife more as a necessary encumbrance than as an equal partner. Ilusion knew her husband's rural upbringing was culturally very different from her middle-class Mexican-American youth (her dad owns a precision machine business). Still, she was surprised by how coldly judgmental her new husband was. "Cesar didn't know better," she says now. "He was raised that women are last on the food chain. You feed everyone else first, including the dog."
> 
> At the time, Cesar says, he believed he was fulfilling the man's role: working to make money to feed his family. But he was never around, and when he did come home, "If he didn't get what he wanted, he was verbally abusive," Ilusion says, "screaming at the top of his lungs."
> 
> When their first son, Andre, was one year old, Ilusion was rushed to the hospital for emergency gall bladder surgery. She almost died, she says, but Cesar didn't visit her until days after the surgery. "He came to visit for two hours, but he was like, `I can't believe you're sick.' He was so annoyed." And the day she came home, "He's like, `I've got to get back to my dogs.' " Not long after, Ilusion told Cesar goodbye. He was stunned.


He started treating her better after that, but she was obviously unhappy for some reason. And from here:



> Women are the worst offenders in his world. In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of “Dog Whisperer,” Mr. Millan explains that a woman is “the only species that is wired different from the rest.” And a “woman always applies affection before discipline,” he says. “Man applies discipline then affection, so we’re more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don’t follow lovable leaders.”
> 
> Mr. Millan’s sexism is laughable; his ethology is outdated.


I wouldn't blame a woman who would leave someone like that, whether his dog had recently died or not.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

lforrest0913 said:


> I agree with how you see them. Caesar's whole thing is he takes extremely poorly-behaved dogs and tries to teach them how to once again respect their owners. I would NEVER use Caesar's techniques on a fresh puppy - at least not when the puppy is totally trainable and responsive to positive reinforcement. But is it really so terribly wrong to give your dog a firm "NO!" when it's misbehaving when it knows better?


There's nothing wrong with a firm no. Most positive trainers will say no! You just have to remember that the word "no" in and of itself means nothing to a dog. You can use it as an interrupter, but then you have to immediately show the dog what you want it to do instead.

Also, your comments bring to mind the whole, "But Cesar rehabilitates red-zone dogs, and positive techniques won't work on them!" argument, which is bull. From that page I linked earlier:



> THE DOGS ON THE SHOW ARE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT YOU WORK WITH - THEY HAVE SERIOUS ISSUES
> 
> This is a common fallacy. The cases on the show are everyday, run-of-the-mill cases of fear and aggression that I and thousands of professional trainers work with every day.


The trainer who wrote that watched Cesar's show regularly (she watched every episode at least twice, first with the sound off so she could read the dog's body language), so she is very familiar with his techniques and the dogs he trains. That page covers all of the common retorts to criticism about Cesar. It's worth a read.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The misogyny is ironic, considering that some of the most brilliant minds in the training universe are women. Regardless of how he grew up or whatever pretense you put on a statement such as "women aren't wired the same" you'd think in experience he'd see how many women are involved in training. And it seems more women in general are dog people. I think even on our own little forum here a vast majority of posters are women.. *though that could just explain say that women like to use the internet.*


 Whats funny is my experience has been the EXACT opposite. Men dominate the other forums I go on, the only other place I've seen women being the majority are sites specifically dedicated to women's issues. The ratio here holds true at my local dog park too. Its probably a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio of women to men. I don't know if thats the case in other areas (showing, agility etc.) but most 'dog people' I've met have been women....


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> You are misinformed. Dogs he's worked with have definitely been euthanized later (and others rehomed) for aggression issues. It's hard to find info, because everyone who goes on the show has to sign a NDA, but a few members of this forum have personal knowledge. Hopefully someone will come along and share some, or I can look through older threads later.


Show me proof of that the dogs in DW were euthanized later or had there aggressions returned because I have personal knowledge myself. 


> Edit: Here's a case -- Cesar couldn't help this dog (and ended up suggesting full-time muzzling), and the owner later decided to have the dog "disarmed" by cutting away 4 millimeters of tooth using a CO2 laser.


This article shows nothing that diminishes Cesar's methods it just shows that his methods are not simple methods. 

_"The Kriegers have not been able to successfully implement Cesar's technique"
"I cringe at the closing scene: me, boasting about Cesar Millan's method being "idiot simple."_

It is in the first sentence. As I said Cesar's techniques have a philosophical basis and it is similar to that of Tai Chi, the whole "energy" thing being the main soul and importance of his methods. 

_"Cesar's efforts were a brilliant success -- until he left our house"_

You just showed me an article of an owner who admits to be incompetent to roll the ball after cesar left. 

And there was also Ruby -- this page discusses her appearance on the show (where she was "rehabilitated"), with this note underneath:

Same thing with Ruby can be applied with the article i commented on above. The family can be assumed to not have successfully applied Cesar's methods after he left. Last, it was also said that Cesar did return (off air) and that dog is still alive. 



> It also mentions JonBee the jindo, who got more aggressive after his appearance on the show and was rehomed and rehabilitated by a non-Cesar trainer -- this is the last I heard of him.
> 
> Also from the 4PawsU page (note that even the show's producer reports an 80% success rate, which means 20% failure):


Did you watch that whole episode because the owner of Jonbee does raise dogs in order for them to be rehomed so if Jonbee was rehomed then congrats to Cesar for helping the man accomplish his goal of making Jonbee safe to adopt. i never heard any return of aggression so if someone told you that it's likely a lie. The link you provided me does not show that cesar's methods failed jonbee and some other trainer fixed him up either. 



> Remember that Dog Whisperer is a TV show. You can't believe everything you see on the news, let alone on a reality show. Be a critical thinker.


DW is a very honest show where his clients are still real. If you want to think that it's loaded with actors (human and dog acting) that is up to you.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

aiw said:


> The big problem I see is that he usually deals with extreme cases and uses extreme techniques (all negative, flooding, intimidation).


The thing is, it's not negative, flooding, or intimidation at all. The funny thing about this is that these accusations are given by people from the UK and US but anybody from Asia to Hispanic countries don't see any negative on his way of discipline. It's not intimidation because intimidation is of negative energy, there is anger involved in intimidation. What he actually does is stand firm and calm by not backing down, showing the dog that he is not afraid nor should the dog be afraid. If you lived in asian countries such as the philippines where there allot of Street Dogs you would know what it looks like when a dog is hurt or intimidated. 

Now i'm reading the rest of the other posts here and it blows me away that someone here really thinks cesar's are abusive. It's just like hearing a person yell "child abuse" when a parent slaps his/her child in the mouth for cursing or something.

Like i said, most people should stop seeing his taps as if they are impactful taps. They don't hurt the dog but just snap it out of it's state of mind... that is normal and you can see that in dogs. Watch a mother dog care/correct it's young; it uses it's mouth to bite or paws to force them to submit what Cesar applies is the same techniques of a Dog who is correcting another dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> DW is a very honest show where his clients are still real. If you want to think that it's loaded with actors (human and dog acting) that is up to you.


Obviously you've made up your mind and there's no arguing with you, but most people on reality shows are real people. The situations, however, are often staged, and episodes are carefully edited to create a storyline (reality shows have story editors just like any other show -- read this; it's fascinating). I posted a video earlier that showed how Cesar's staff provoke dogs for the cameras. They can easily make these dogs look much worse than they are.

I do find it amusing that you dislike Victoria Stilwell based on her failing (in your mind) ONE dog, yet Cesar fails 20% of the dogs he works with and you see him as a god. I'll give the guy credit; he is EXCELLENT at charming people. A winning smile and some self-help-type platitudes and he's got people defending him to the death.

Also, like I said earlier, the NDAs make it hard to find info. And if you don't view rehoming, child-biting, and tooth-filing as failures, then I'm not sure what I could show you that would sway you. Re: JonBee, though, read the comments here:



> I would not agree with your assessment of the “Hwanggu.” I actually saw Jonbee in person. Granted it was more of a bystander role, but he was not nearly wild, psychotic, or undomesticated as the NG producers played him out to be.
> 
> You might want to remember during the episode that Jonbee didn’t have problems roling on his back when he was outside, but only when he was inside. That even Cesar pointed out that Jonbee wanted to flee from him when he was outside. What should that tell you?





> Well… it’s not disputed that Jonbee was given up by his tv owner, Scott Lincoln, to Second Chance at Love Rescue. (SCLR is run by a Cesar disciple.) Jonbee is available for adoption from them. I’m guessing that they have lots of liability insurance to be able to do that.
> 
> I met Jonbee and Scott prior to the Dog Whisperer mess, not after. It was on neutral territory so there wasn’t much to see if there was a house-only issue. Part of what did make me uncomfortable about the entire situation was how Jonbee became a symbol to Scott Lincoln in his fight against cancer. He wasn’t seeing the dog, and look how he inflicted alpha-rolling and who know what else inside the house while in his quest to dominate Jonbee.
> 
> And then enters Cesar who spent more than a few tv seconds fighting with Jonbee inside the house. (See if you can see the cut from fresh Cesar to sweaty Cesar.) Jonbee goes from throwing “oh-no” body language to resorting to what has worked in the past in stopping what he’s dreading. In a way, he’s fighting the flooding that Cesar is inflicting on him.


The editing, the story-creating, is there, if you watch for it.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> There's nothing wrong with a firm no. Most positive trainers will say no! You just have to remember that the word "no" in and of itself means nothing to a dog. You can use it as an interrupter, but then you have to immediately show the dog what you want it to do instead.
> 
> Also, your comments bring to mind the whole, "But Cesar rehabilitates red-zone dogs, and positive techniques won't work on them!" argument, which is bull. From that page I linked earlier:
> 
> ...


 No disrespect, but until the time the trainer is seen being able to walk/run with 50 (yes 50) dogs consisting of Pitbulls, Rotts, GSD's... all under control then I have no reason why to take her word better than Cesar's. 

What you guys need to do first is take away the thought of Cesar's methods "hurting" a dog because it doesn't. Firm "NO" will not work on Dogs who are already aggressive for a while and just don't listen to their master. They don't understand words but (in Millan's Philosophy) they pick up on the persons energy and the energy has to be balanced. No fear, no negatives... "Tai chi" again.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I honestly don't know how you can look at the videos of Cesar kicking dogs, fighting with them, choking them, wrestling them to the ground, etc. without seeing anything negative about it. . .


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, there's no arguing with someone who sees no negatives in Cesar's techniques and who blames any failure on the owners not keeping up with said techniques once Cesar leaves. The man should have been a cult leader. I am constantly amazed by how otherwise-intelligent people believe every single thing they see on his show.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> I have a dog, Buddy that will slink away & cringe sometimes when someone reaches for him too quickly, is he abused? No ... well not by me anyway. But someone who didnt know us might think he is.
> 
> Josefina sometimes will shrink away when I quickly reach for her, I dont know why. maybe it stems from an incident that happened when I had to pull her away from a snake as a youngster ... who knows? maybe she is just high strung (she is) ?


Yes, our pup Luna does that. She has never been abused. We treat her like we treat all our other dogs and if we or anyone else reaches for her quickly, drops to there knees quickly and calls her she will get flightly.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Obviously you've made up your mind and there's no arguing with you, but most people on reality shows are real people. The situations, however, are often staged, and episodes are carefully edited to create a storyline (reality shows have story editors just like any other show -- read this; it's fascinating). I posted a video earlier that showed how Cesar's staff provoke dogs for the cameras. They can easily make these dogs look much worse than they are.


But this is still a baseless accusation against Cesar though. Sorry... If you want to believe that they all staged this that is all up to you, but maybe you should check the facebooks or something from the clients of that show just so your opinion is not grounded on your speculation. 



> I do find it amusing that you dislike Victoria Stilwell based on her failing (in your mind) ONE dog, yet Cesar fails 20% of the dogs he works with and you see him as a god. I'll give the guy credit; he is EXCELLENT at charming people. A winning smile and some self-help-type platitudes and he's got people defending him to the death.


I like Victoria and i do recommend her over Cesar when it comes to beginners or people who just are not strong/wise enough inside to do his methods. If haters think the claws bite/kicks have a strong impact than it's also possible that even believers may think that too and end up actually hurting the dog. What i didn't like about Victoria is that incompetence shown with Benjy, a COCKERSPANIEL and how she recommended the dog to be put down as an option and for those who have watched both shows and follow both trainers we know that Cesar would have handled this. If Benjy was that "out" he would go for months with various trails and if it does appear that there is no way for her to be safe he would suggest a SWAP. 

Her and that Positive Method is only meant for stuff like teaching your dog to sit or housebreaking.. the minors. 



> Also, like I said earlier, the NDAs make it hard to find info. And if you don't view rehoming, child-biting, and tooth-filing as failures, then I'm not sure what I could show you that would sway you. Re: JonBee, though, read the comments here:


the comments are very ignorant and i am reading them... no disrespect bro but it's the same here and with everybody who doesn't understand Cesar's methods. Additionally that Second Chance adoption thing -where Jonbee was given to by his owner-- is founded by Cesar Millan's students... http://www.cesarsway.com/biography-cheri-lucas
Jonbee was a success.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So, what do YOU think the "80% success rate" means?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Her and that Positive Method is only meant for stuff like teaching your dog to sit or housebreaking.. the minors.


You _really_ need to do more research, "bro." These methods are used to train everything from mice to chickens to cats to hyenas to whales. Cesar's methods wouldn't even work on pure wolves.

I have familiarized myself with Cesar's methods and philosophy so that I can explain why I dislike his techniques. If you really want to argue against positive training, you need to learn what it actually means. Right now, you don't know.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I honestly don't know how you can look at the videos of Cesar kicking dogs, fighting with them, choking them, wrestling them to the ground, etc. without seeing anything negative about it. . .


Because they are not hard kicks, he's not fighting with them, nor does he choke them. It goes back to what i said, most people who see something physical immediately think it hurts. Have you guys ever seen a dog getting kicked and choked in real life? The reaction and noise is 10x different from what you see in DW. 

You guys are just sensitive. The more you people start exaggerating his touches like as to what you did the more you show ignorance of dog handling. Enough with the "treat it like a teddy bear" attitude. Cesar's methods are firm and it's the exact attitude/firmness of a Sensei to his student, there is nothing in his kicks that are that physically harmful. People like you and Crantastic need to drop that because in the end your whole "positive methods" is the real negatives if the situations passes the basic "my dog won't sit/come when told and pees around my house".


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

He reads dogs sooooo welll 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

cisco said:


> Her and that Positive Method is only meant for stuff like teaching your dog to sit or housebreaking.. the minors.


That is totally and utterly incorrect. If you believe that, you are not informed enough on positive training to speak on it. It is a fallacy that positive methods are only for minor problems, tricks, and obedience.

I used to watch Millan's show, RELIGIOUSLY. Thankfully I got over that and am now better educated. I hope the same for you in the future. I do not bother arguing with people who refuse to see any flaw in a TV celebrity. I have real dogs to train - and not just housebreaking or cute tricks, either.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> You _really_ need to do more research, "bro." These methods are used to train everything from mice to chickens to cats to hyenas to whales. Cesar's methods wouldn't even work on pure wolves.
> 
> I have familiarized myself with Cesar's methods and philosophy so that I can explain why I dislike his techniques. If you really want to argue against positive training, you need to learn what it actually means. Right now, you don't know.


Why are you giving me links to other animals? Yes it doesn't work on wolves, remember the special involving wolf-hybrids where Cesar brings a Wolf Expert along because he himself admits (in that show) of his ignorance towards wolves? You tried showing me all these "aftermaths with Cesar" such as that Jonbee and those same references you gave were actually self-contradictory. You are the only one who does not know and you are just applying your interpretation from high sensitivity and lack of experience on real problematic dogs. Positive Training (for dogs) is a great method but Cesar's Methods are not inferior that Benjy episode is an example.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cisco said:


> People like you and Crantastic need to drop that because in the end your whole "positive methods" is the real negatives if the situations passes the basic "my dog won't sit/come when told and pees around my house".


Oh do they? The dogs I own and work with prove otherwise. What exactly do you understand about "positive" training? Considering how you seem to understand the way CM "trains" then do enlighten me about how you see the way we do things.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LOL. I think that if a good trainer can teach a hyena (a wild animal that does not have tendencies to be tame or non-aggressive) to offer a paw and stand still for blood draws (painful!) using positive methods, any half-decent trainer can teach a dog not to pee in the house without resorting to pain, fear, or intimidation. Bad trainers. . .can't. 

Plus, if you're claiming ol' Cesar isn't negative, aren't you saying he's positive?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Why are you giving me links to other animals? Yes it doesn't work on wolves, remember the special involving wolf-hybrids where Cesar brings a Wolf Expert along because he himself admits (in that show) of his ignorance towards wolves? You tried showing me all these "aftermaths with Cesar" such as that Jonbee and those same references you gave were actually self-contradictory. You are the only one who does not know and you are just applying your interpretation from high sensitivity and lack of experience on real problematic dogs. Positive Training (for dogs) is a great method but Cesar's Methods are not inferior that Benjy episode is an example.


I am giving you links to other animals to show you that positive training techniques are used to teach complex behaviors, not just "sit" and other basics. If you don't think that a dog can be trained to do the same tricks as those mice and that cat using positive techniques, then I don't know what to tell you, man.

I'm just sitting here snickering at the fact that you think I'm sensitive. Hang around a while... you'll see why. 

(And yes, I am also interested in hearing what you think "positive training" is. You don't seem to have the same definition of it as the vast majority of positive trainers I know.)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'm using positive training techniques to train my new service dog candidate. Some of these behaviors are quite complex in nature, and they won't involve poking a dog in the neck and hissing at it


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> He reads dogs sooooo welll
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM


He does, but he took his eyes off when he was explaining the whole thing during that FIRST meeting with the dog. The whole episode should be posted because it was a great success.. that episode was what built my respect for Millan's professionalism. Not being afraid to get bit so that he can really see the problem. Watch more of it especially when he stands firm instead of backing off (because that can lead to the dog to continue attacking).


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cisco said:


> He does, but he took his eyes off when he was explaining the whole thing during that FIRST meeting with the dog. The whole episode should be posted because it was a great success.. that episode was what built my respect for Millan's professionalism. Not being afraid to get bit so that he can really see the problem. Watch more of it especially when he stands firm instead of backing off (because that can lead to the dog to continue attacking).


I am about to bust out a Prince gif here. Seriously?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Bologna. The dog gives him dozens upon dozens of signals that he is making her uncomfortable.

"I didn't see that coming!"

He SHOULD HAVE if he "reads dogs so well". His "standing firm" was not impressive. It was cruel and put the dog under more stress. She didn't WANT to bite him. She gave him NUMEROUS opportunities to back off, and he pushed the issue, because he's an ego maniacal jerk with power issues.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I am giving you links to other animals to show you that positive training techniques are used to teach complex behaviors, not just "sit" and other basics. If you don't think that a dog can be trained to do the same tricks as those mice and that cat using positive techniques, then I don't know what to tell you, man.
> 
> I'm just sitting here snickering at the fact that you think I'm sensitive. Hang around a while... you'll see why.
> 
> (And yes, I am also interested in hearing what you think "positive training" is. You don't seem to have the same definition of it as the vast majority of positive trainers I know.)


 I think positive training is good but not until it reaches 50% of the shown cases in DW. The Jonbee the Jindu case, the Oscar the Pitbull case, Holly case... we've seen it being weak against Benjy after all and Benjy was of the same problem of Holly (luckily a less powerful breed than Holly too). Like i said, I promote Positive Methods but i also include Millan's methods as another Positive method but one that takes allot of wisdom due to how "tai-chi" like it is. As the show states "the viewers need to contact a professional first before applying these methods". Please start reading. 

I likely don't have the same definition to that Positive Method because i think it's only considered generally positive towards "sensitives" who view any sort of touch or necessary physical action as "abuse" or "hurtful" to a dog. 
Looks like you strayed away from the argument involving the known attacking dogs who went under cesar's way and came out safe (Jonbee) or the links where those owners expressed their incompetence in following up Cesar's methods after he left.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You keep picking on Victoria giving up on ONE dog but you still haven't commented on what an 80% success rate means. . .


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> You keep picking on Victoria giving up on ONE dog but you still haven't commented on what an 80% success rate means. . .


Oh, silly Willowy, that's an 80% success rate for the _owners_, not for Cesar. Cesar has a 100% success rate. 20% of people are just incapable of keeping up with his techniques after he leaves their house. 

/sarcasm


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Can hardly consider a dog safe when it has to be given up to a sanctuary to be managed


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LOL. . .hey, there was a recent thread with another trainer, with a video showing him manhandling this dog who was later put down because the trainer decided he wasn't right in the head or something like that. And that trainer's website claimed a 100% success rate. I wonder how they measure success?  But of course anyone who claims 100% success in anything is, by necessity, lying his head off.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> You keep picking on Victoria giving up on ONE dog but you still haven't commented on what an 80% success rate means. . .


It means that some dogs may have problems that can't be risked towards a family with children regardless of the rehabilitation. 80% includes/considers the whole "low-medium-high energy" thing in dogs that there are certain Dog energies that are not adjustable to the environment they are living in. For example, a hyperactive doberman living in a home with small space and owners who don't have the time to walk it all the time. No method in the world will completely remedy any issue of that dog. That's a contributing minus to success rates. 

Yes i'm picking on Victoria's "put the dog to sleep" failure because this is an example against the attacks of Cesar and everything is cured with "Positive Methods". It's the example of the limit and level between his methods and that positive method. Positive method is the primary method trainers/owners should do while Cesar's is mostly for real serious cases but it can some what be applied (the whole Exercise, Discipline, Affection) in basics.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Oh, silly Willowy, that's an 80% success rate for the _owners_, not for Cesar. Cesar has a 100% success rate. 20% of people are just incapable of keeping up with his techniques after he leaves their house.
> 
> /sarcasm


CM trains dogs to poop gold.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Positive method is the primary method trainers/owners should do while Cesar's is mostly for real serious cases but it can some what be applied (the whole Exercise, Discipline, Affection) in basics.


Again, the vast majority of the dogs Cesar deals with have the exact same issues that positive trainers treat all of the time... positive trainers will deal with a hundred or more biters and resource guarders and dog-aggressive dogs in a year. Their methods just aren't flashy and don't make for good TV.

I often like to watch Cesar, not the dog, when I'm watching his show. I'm decent at reading dogs (I'm no expert, but I'm learning more and more all the time), but I've always been really good at reading people. Although he appears calm and assertive, I can often see his frustration and desire for absolute control bubbling just below the surface. The guy has an ego, and he doesn't like it when things don't go his way. Reading interviews (like the one where he admitted that he used to verbally abuse his wife) just confirmed that for me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

cisco said:


> It means that some dogs may have problems that can't be risked towards a family with children regardless of the rehabilitation. 80% includes/considers the whole "low-medium-high energy" thing in dogs that there are certain Dog energies that are not adjustable to the environment they are living in. For example, a hyperactive doberman living in a home with small space and owners who don't have the time to walk it all the time. No method in the world will completely remedy any issue of that dog. That's a contributing minus to success rates.
> 
> Yes i'm picking on Victoria's "put the dog to sleep" failure because this is an example against the attacks of Cesar and everything is cured with "Positive Methods". It's the example of the limit and level between his methods and that positive method. Positive method is the primary method trainers/owners should do while Cesar's is mostly for real serious cases but it can some what be applied (the whole Exercise, Discipline, Affection) in basics.


 So what do you think happens to his "failures"? I don't think it's considered a failure if the dog goes to live with him. . .


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Again, the vast majority of the dogs Cesar deals with have the exact same issues that positive trainers treat all of the time... positive trainers will deal with a hundred or more biters and resource guarders and dog-aggressive dogs in a year. Their methods just aren't flashy and don't make for good TV.


By all means. Please show me that positive method with the 50+ dogs consisting of Pit's, Rotts... each having aggression cases and running along under control. I'm not doubting that other methods than Cesar's are helpful because there can't be just one way but to which the majority labels as "Positive Methods" are limited.. i will continue to reference that Benjy because it's a visible example instead of posting out of being creative like in your second paragraph about you reading "him" just to add weight in the argument. 



> I often like to watch Cesar, not the dog, when I'm watching his show. I'm decent at reading dogs (I'm no expert, but I'm learning more and more all the time), but I've always been really good at reading people. Although he appears calm and assertive, I can often see his frustration and desire for absolute control bubbling just below the surface. The guy has an ego, and he doesn't like it when things don't go his way. Reading interviews (like the one where he admitted that he used to verbally abuse his wife) just confirmed that for me.


It's great that you can read the energy off a man through a tv screen to determine if he is really calm or not. This post of yours shows that you are just going to throw out anything you can think of to argue in against Cesar now. Get over it man. From that Jonbee and now saying you can see what he's feeling in tv?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I didn't say I could read his "energy," whatever that means. Don't put words in my mouth. I've always been going at reading faces and body language. I wasn't using that to "prove" he's a bad trainer, anyway, just as an insight into his character. I think it's interesting that someone who used to lose his temper and scream at his wife has built an empire on the idea of calm, assertive energy.

So you're saying that you won't believe positive training works for aggressive dogs unless a trainer has a pack of 50+ of them running together at the same time? You do realize that most good trainers and behaviorists aren't TV personalities with a multi-million-dollar empire and therefore don't make enough money to keep a huge pack of dogs, right?


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

This thread makes me sad, only because I used to sound quite a lot like 'cisco' for a brief period of time. I am so glad I saw the light. And thank god that Jackson did not ever 'need' to use CM's methods in the first place because my dog would be a total and complete wreck right now if I had ever tried any of the crap CM tries to call 'training'. 

I truly did used to watch his show and be amazed though. I'm not sure how people can be so brainwashed but you will just have to learn for yourself. It probably took me 2 years to fully comprehend the damage that is done to a dog when trained with CM's methods.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I didn't say I could read his "energy," whatever that means. Don't put words in my mouth. I've always been going at reading faces and body language. I wasn't using that to "prove" he's a bad trainer, anyway, just as an insight into his character. I think it's interesting that someone who used to lose his temper and scream at his wife has built an empire on the idea of calm, assertive energy.


energy = what the man is really feeling = the emotions are are really in his head. You are now going "i can read him on tv!" you are just throwing out anything you can think of to have an argument against Cesar. His issues with his wife have been stated by him on his show and on several interviews to be his greatest weakness.. "cesar is there anything you can't control?.." "my mariage...".
Having complications towards women is a normal factor, in fact i know that some will even claim that dogs are easier to live/understand that females (that's not meant to be sexist). You trying find faults with "he claims/shows calm assertive energy towards but can't towards his own woman" as a counter argument is bad and it has nothing to in his concerns of his profession. 



> So you're saying that you won't believe positive training works for aggressive dogs unless a trainer has a pack of 50+ of them running together at the same time? You do realize that most good trainers and behaviorists aren't TV personalities with a multi-million-dollar empire and therefore don't make enough money to keep a huge pack of dogs, right?


I'm not saying that. I'm saying if you don't show that then there is no reason for me to believe the negs or inferiority of Cesar's methods. And Dude, Cesar started out walking with a group of Rotts.. before he became famous and illegally migrated to the US he walked dogs in a pack as a job and did it off leash due to the ignorance of it being illegal. You are now making excuses bro. Please be more open minded to various trainings and keep in mind that physical touches doesn't = abuse, pain, bullying... as to what others think. Learn a bit of Chinese philosophies like Tai chi and you will see how similar it is to Cesar's style, further more making it another form of positive method in it's own right.

@jacksons mom: i've had an aggressive Doberman for 5 years, nearly mauled a few of my little cousins and nearly killed my golden poodle. i then purchased cesar's books and went to a trainer who studied under CM and my doberman is just fine at 10 years of age now. He can sleep well with my golden poodle. i also encouraged a pitbull for my cousins first dog and made her watch DW to watch Daddy and Junior, some interviews of CM talking about Pitbulls (with the little rascals too..) just to encourage that it was a good choice. It (the pitbull) was then checked by the vet and another breeder and given negs about how it will snap, how unpredictable pitbulls are, and just how the puppy needs to be returned for a dog that is trustable. My cousin ignores it, raises it using Cesar's book as a guide with added stuff from Victoria too and it's all great at 8 years old today. There is nothing wrong with Cesar's methods nor is it harmful, it's a false accusation made by people who are that sensitive and think taps have an impact or something.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

And here I'm still waiting to hear about how positive training works and why it can't work for "Rotts and Pits" or.. any dog.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Although I never really "used" dominance methods on Jackson, because it was always unnecessary with him, I strongly believed in the "Cesar Millan" way of dominance and being a dog's pack leader. It just seemed to make sense to me. 

I've been able to enjoy the experience of bonding and learning with a dog through truly positive reinforcement. Then I discovered clicker training as well. It's really amazing what you can do with a dog with a little encouragement and positive energy.

I am not my dogs "pack leader" nor his "alpha". He doesn't obey commands because he HAS to... he does because he WANTS to and he ENJOYS pleasing me. He's my best friend, my every day companion, and my heart.

He comes to me happily when I call his name, he has progressively gotten over his fear of strangers, he has succeeded in everything I've thrown at him (agility, dock diving, and more), and is always a "canine good citizen". He's friendly with dogs he meets, he's able to walk into a store or go anywhere and be on his best behavior. And this, plus much more, was accomplished without physical corrections, without dominating him or rolling him on his back, or forcing him to walk behind me or using a prong collar/choke chain/shock collar.

Most of all, we have FUN together. We have a freakin' blast and he and I both enjoy training equally. We're a team... I'm not "above" him. We have a mutual respect for one another that's created a strong bond that will last a lifetime.

My views on dog training used to be vastly different. Jackson has taught me so much in general. But not just Jackson, I was a dog sitter for 4 years, ranging from Pits to Rott's to Chi's. I saw a Rottie be ruined by this 'dominance' stuff CM spouts. This dog was always ready to learn with me. Man, he was so smart. He responded well to 'positive training'. He had some reactive issues on walks that I fixed with a clicker and treats in just a few days. Yet the owner continued to alpha roll him, force him into being 'submissive', simply for getting excited when I walked in the door. It made me so sad. He turned pretty aggressive and I really miss him, and feel so bad for him.

"Training is something you do with your dog, not to your dog."


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

sclevenger said:


> Yes, our pup Luna does that. She has never been abused. We treat her like we treat all our other dogs and if we or anyone else reaches for her quickly, drops to there knees quickly and calls her she will get flightly.


Yeah like ... If you ... It's hard to explain ... But if you call him a certain way or if you do like my parents do & if he doesn't respond right away (*headdesk*) they will both start calling him & pressure him (not intentionally of course) then of course he will start circling around & throwing calming signals, I'm pretty sure he was abused but he also is the type that can't take pressure.

That being said ... When I first put him on a leash he fought like a wild horse no kidding ... Of course I used a leash called a racing lead, it's kind of like a half check but not really, but it doesn't choke the dog if they pull against it but they can't slip out of it. During this whole scene he was throwin his tantrum not ONCE did I: jab him, choke him, string him up or try to submit him. I just let him work through it on his own & it worked ... He now comes to his leash (after that initial episode I was able to use treats) I can now call him & he will come to his leash because he learned by himself that it's not really that bad.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> And Dude, Cesar started out walking with a group of Rotts.. before he became famous and illegally migrated to the US he walked dogs in a pack as a job and did it off leash due to the ignorance of it being illegal.


What does that have to do with anything? Rotties aren't inherently aggressive. I see dog walkers here all of the time walking six dogs in off-leash areas, some of them bigger/stereotypically "dangerous" breeds. It's somewhat impressive, but it doesn't make them dog behavior experts.



> You are now making excuses bro. Please be more open minded to various trainings and keep in mind that physical touches doesn't = abuse, pain, bullying... as to what others think. Learn a bit of Chinese philosophies like Tai chi and you will see how similar it is to Cesar's style, further more making it another form of positive method in it's own right.





> There is nothing wrong with Cesar's methods nor is it harmful, it's a false accusation made by people who are that sensitive and think taps have an impact or something.


I am very open-minded and I like to consider myself a critical thinker, which is how I came to learn about positive training. I used to believe in all of that alpha stuff and I used to use dominance-based techniques. I joined this forum, read a lot, bought some books written by animal behaviorists, read those, watched videos of both positive and dominance-based training, read articles, watched Dog Whisperer and It's Me or the Dog... basically, I learned about both schools of thought and made up my own mind. You should do more reading about positive methods so that you really know what you're talking about, because it's obvious right now that you're arguing against methods you don't actually understand.

And you keep saying that people who dislike Cesar are sensitive, which keeps making me laugh. Come up with a better argument, because that one's laughably inaccurate.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> And here I'm still waiting to hear about how positive training works and why it can't work for "Rotts and Pits" or.. any dog.


Positive training works. Regardless of me talking so much about Cesar, i do recommend Positive training over CM's because those methods are much easier to do and have little penalties if you mess up. It's just for average things and what people get wrong is that it's not the only "positive method". 

The example is Victoria in her Me or the Dog show. That show is an example of this"positive method" because all her cases were average cases/minor behavioural issues that have resulted on the part of the owner, yet when she actually runs into a case that is common Cesar case (with Breeds like Pitbulls with attacking cases)... well: "the dog (Cockerspaniel) my need be put to sleep"... Cesar's methods are best for dogs with real deep issues, serious phobias, aggression, These dogs require different handling methods, which is his method but that method needs to be consulted by a professional first (as said in the show). 

note: Re-read the post Crantastic about Jonbee the Jindo. Cesar's methods with a Jindo who just attacked... that recall the whole "Positive method with a COCKERSPANIEL facing food aggression".


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

cisco said:


> Cesar's methods are best for dogs with real deep issues, serious phobias, aggression, These dogs require different handling methods, which is his method


No, they're not. And no, they don't. 

Make the choice to educate yourself, sooner rather than later. There are some great resources on modern behavior modification methods, available in print and online.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

cisco said:


> Cesar's methods are best for dogs with real deep issues, serious phobias, aggression, These dogs require different handling methods, which is his method but that method needs to be consulted by a professional first (as said in the show).


they're more likely to get you bit actually.

oh and here's something the rest of the behaviourists have to say
http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm


and


> In February 2006, an article in the New York Times quoted Dr. Nicholas Dodman, director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Tufts University's Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine, said that his college had "written to National Geographic Channel and told them they have put dog training back 20 years".[43] A New York Times August 2006 op-ed by Mark Derr, an author noted for his publications on dogs, criticized Dog Whisperer for its reliance on a "simplistic view of the dog's social structure". According to Derr, Millan's methodology "flies in the face of what professional animal behaviorists — either trained and certified veterinarians or ethologists — have learned about normal and abnormal behavior in dogs".[44]
> Also in 2006, the American Humane Association (AHA) requested that the National Geographic Channel stop airing the program,[45] saying that training tactics shown on Dog Whisperer were inhumane, outdated and improper.[46] By November 2009, Millan had invited the American Humane Association to the set of Dog Whisperer, at which time, according to Millan, "they changed their state of mind about what is cruel".[47] The association announced in February 2010 that despite "sharp differences of view in the past" and some lingering areas of disagreement, they shared many areas of interest with Millan.[48]
> Debra Horwitz, president of the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists, said that the major benefits of The Dog Whisperer are that it makes owners aware that they are not alone in the problems they have with their pets, and that it provides good advice on the need for dogs to exercise and have rules. But, Horwitz adds, the show also has the major drawback of attributing behavior problems to dominance when the dog may be misbehaving because it is fearful or anxious.[49] Pet columnist Steve Dale said in a July 2010 newspaper column that while he believed Millan was "blessed with an amazingly intuitive understanding of dog behavior," some of the methods shown on the program, particularly those related to dominance, were inappropriate and not substantiated by science.[50]


I know wiki isn't the best but this particular article list credible sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_Whisperer_with_Cesar_Millan


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Although I never really "used" dominance methods on Jackson, because it was always unnecessary with him, I strongly believed in the "Cesar Millan" way of dominance and being a dog's pack leader. It just seemed to make sense to me.
> 
> I've been able to enjoy the experience of bonding and learning with a dog through truly positive reinforcement. Then I discovered clicker training as well. It's really amazing what you can do with a dog with a little encouragement and positive energy.
> 
> ...


The thing about CM's methods is that it does involve that philosophy dealing with "inner-energy". It's not really about the action but the "energy" used in the action that matters. Lets say you are trying to get your dog to submit, the way cesar does, but if it's done with a negative attitude (frustration or whatever levels of stress) then that's already a failure. From what i read you did follow Cesar's methods more. Exercise, Discipline, affection.. the owner must have went straight to force with out applying the first need (exercise) and even with held the last importance - affection. You did all 3 with that positive energy which is exactly like how cesar does it. Submission is only needed when you have dogs who are showing aggression.. like towards other dogs or humans. Where you will need to have that dog lay down or sit and then reward him. It's like in the Homeboys or hounds episode where Cesar was using reward methods on the pitbull. I admire your talent allot and i think people who can also insert their own style is great. more props to you.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> No, they're not. And no, they don't.
> 
> Make the choice to educate yourself, sooner rather than later. There are some great resources on modern behavior modification methods, available in print and online.


Yes they do. The majority of dogs in DW are of those issues.. evidence is evidence bro, and that is already a resource. It's just a much stricter method.. like i said in the beginning, Cesar is like that of martial arts in his methods (allot of relevance to Tai chi) meaning that his methods are not for "dummies". If a man/kid starts copying his stuff on a neighbor dog who is acting the same way as to what he/she saw on tv, they will get bit. 

@Flaming, i never went against the point that Cesar's methods shouldn't be done if there is no greater knowledge in performing it. You should have read that entire post. I am aware of the many critiques against millan but he has proven them wrong because of the success he showed. They can talk all they want but until the time they start showing that they can do what he does (i mentioned the 50+ dogs..) then i have no reason to believe that Cesar's methods are not useful.

@crantastic: the reason why i am using "sensitives" is because you guys think that tapping he does his abuse. I've already read the "he chokes, kicks, punches.." those physical touches he does are not of that same impact nor is it even in an impact level to call it abuse.. that is being sensitive. The distinguishing of his methods and positive methods is a color of sensitivity because it's like saying any discipline involving physical touch (especially on a species that do touch each other correction) isn't positive. I'm done arguing with you because you are the only one who doesn't know what he is talking about, you already buffed my argument with the Jindo part and you couldn't give anything else but creative writing about you can read a man's feelings off a tv screen and how you've seen others walk a pack of dogs. Stop quoting snippets off my posts because you sort of leave out some points made for the reply you are giving to the quoted segment. All respect, but Cesar's methods are not the opposite of positivity.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

cisco said:


> Yes they do. The majority of dogs in DW are of those issues.. evidence is evidence bro, and that is already a resource. It's just a much stricter method.. like i said in the beginning, Cesar is like that of martial arts in his methods (allot of relevance to Tai chi) meaning that his methods are not for "dummies". If a man/kid starts copying his stuff on a neighbor dog who is acting the same way as to what he/she saw on tv, they will get bit.
> 
> @Flaming, i never went against the point that Cesar's methods shouldn't be done if there is no greater knowledge in performing it. You should have read that entire post. I am aware of the many critiques against millan but he has proven them wrong because of the success he showed. They can talk all they want but until the time they start showing that they can do what he does (i mentioned the 50+ dogs..) then i have no reason to believe that Cesar's methods are not useful.



Re-read - "not scientifically supported" 
oddly enough positive train is scientifically supported. 

I'm going to bed now, it's late here and I have to get up early.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Flaming said:


> Re-read - "not scientifically supported"
> oddly enough positive train is scientifically supported.
> 
> I'm going to bed now, it's late here and I have to get up early.


But he still proved that "scientific study" wrong.. i'm out too.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> @crantastic: the reason why i am using "sensitives" is because you guys think that tapping he does his abuse. I've already read the "he chokes, kicks, punches.." those physical touches he does are not of that same impact nor is it even in an impact level to call it abuse.. that is being sensitive. The distinguishing of his methods and positive methods is a color of sensitivity because it's like saying any discipline involving physical touch (especially on a species that do touch each other correction) isn't positive. I'm done arguing with you because you are the only one who doesn't know what he is talking about, you already buffed my argument with the Jindo part and you couldn't give anything else but creative writing about you can read a man's feelings off a tv screen and how you've seen others walk a pack of dogs. Stop quoting snippets off my posts because you sort of leave out some points made for the reply you are giving to the quoted segment. All respect, but Cesar's methods are not the opposite of positivity.


I don't think that tapping a dog is abuse. I am iffy about pinning; I think it's a stupid method (wild wolves and dogs voluntarily roll over; they don't pin each other), but I'm not sure I'd call it abuse -- it would depend on the specific situation, I think, and on how much it upset the dog. I think that choking and hanging are abuse. If you're going to argue against my opinions, make sure you know what those opinions actually are, thank you.

Bottom line here: Cesar's methods have been disproved by the experts. People in the animal behavior field aren't even debating whether or not his methods are good anymore; they have moved on. It's only laypeople like you -- who buy into what a TV personality says and believe everything you see on his heavily-edited show -- who are keeping this whole "alpha" thing alive. I'd drop all of my usual links here, but it's obvious that you're not reading a single thing I link or watching any of the videos. You also haven't provided one single shred of proof of your own (a reality show is not proof). You can insult me and dismiss me with "bro" all you like (btw, I'm female), but you're not convincing anyone.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

@Cisco It's not always the action that makes it abuse, it depends on what is abuse as far as the dog is concerned. Of course there are common sense quadrants on what is abuse but its not always that black & white ... IMO abuse is also anything that damages the dog emotionally ... Soft dogs like Buddy would be emotionally regressed by even CM's presence or even if he looks at him a certain way. 

In short, just because CM isn't "violent" doesn't mean he isn't being abusive.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

I don't think just because your positive it means your a pansy, and I don't think because you want to use "dominance" means you're an insecure person who needs to be in control 24/7.
For MOST dogs I would argue you only need to be positive. I don't believe pinning, yelling, etc has any place in dog training. I do believe there is some use for leash corrections, and to an extent low stimulation e-collar training. But this is for a very select few dogs, I would argue most of the cases Cesar has had to deal with could be solved with positive reinforcement. These "dominance" methods must be properly done and there must be expert timing, anything less will end up hurting the dog more than helping it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Reason I can respect Victoria Stillwell: She can admit that she is unable to help a dog
Reason I have trouble respecting Cesar: He cannot. Yeah, the SHOW may say he's got a success rate, but he will not admit failure. You can see that he has to WIN in the clip with Holly. It is not about Holly and her issues, it is about Cesar and HIS issues.

And it is sad when one cannot admit a failure. Failure itself, I have come to learn, is not good, nor is it bad. It is neutral. Failure is a part of every career there is. It is part of life. Why can't the dude admit to having some failures?


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Reason I can respect Victoria Stillwell: She can admit that she is unable to help a dog
> Reason I have trouble respecting Cesar: He cannot. Yeah, the SHOW may say he's got a success rate, but he will not admit failure. You can see that he has to WIN in the clip with Holly. It is not about Holly and her issues, it is about Cesar and HIS issues.
> 
> And it is sad when one cannot admit a failure. Failure itself, I have come to learn, is not good, nor is it bad. It is neutral. Failure is a part of every career there is. It is part of life. Why can't the dude admit to having some failures?


Cesar has admitted failure in explaining why he gets bit and during his time before the show. Holly wasn't a failure did you even see the episode or are you all about the video clip of their first encounter? I bet if Vic went in for holly she would likely recommend another euthanasia just like with that Cockerspaniel. No one denies that failure is normal but when you are showing situations such as aggression were one person manages to have success many times while the other can't... that means something. You guys only think Cesar's methods are wrong because you can't get rid of the fact that his physical touches are not of any harmful impact and you automatically think it's a form of abuse/intimidation. Watch a mother dog and how she handles the young what the mother does is the same thing Cesar does stop being sensitive.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Mother dogs "touch" their young in the underbelly/groin area with their foot? They jab their babies in the neck? They forcefully pin them to the ground? Provide proof of this, please.



> I bet if Vic went in for holly she would likely recommend another euthanasia just like with that Cockerspaniel.


And I bet that she wouldn't have kept advancing on and looming over a resource guarder who was warning her of an imminent bite, so she wouldn't have gotten bitten in the first place. Too bad speculation about a situation that didn't and will never happen is meaningless in a debate.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I missed the part where CM was a mother dog or the majority of the dogs he treats at the developmental stage of puppies. Of corse he also seems to think that he and dogs are both wolves, too.

I tend to follow the opinions of animal behaviorists and scientific researchers over a guy who isn't really sure what he is, but that is my choice.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I don't think that tapping a dog is abuse. I am iffy about pinning; I think it's a stupid method (wild wolves and dogs voluntarily roll over; they don't pin each other), but I'm not sure I'd call it abuse -- it would depend on the specific situation, I think, and on how much it upset the dog. I think that choking and hanging are abuse. If you're going to argue against my opinions, make sure you know what those opinions actually are, thank you.


Weren't you one of the guys who used the "he kicks...." stuff earlier? Now, you are still going with the exaggerated physical methods cesar showed the "choking/hanging..." there was nothing ever displayed by that. I hope you are not getting that with the episode where Cesar was with a black biting dog who was raging all over the place and forcing cesar to raise the leash to avoid getting bit. That's the reason why i've been using the term "sensitives". 


> Bottom line here: Cesar's methods have been disproved by the experts. People in the animal behavior field aren't even debating whether or not his methods are good anymore; they have moved on. It's only laypeople like you -- who buy into what a TV personality says and believe everything you see on his heavily-edited show -- who are keeping this whole "alpha" thing alive. I'd drop all of my usual links here, but it's obvious that you're not reading a single thing I link or watching any of the videos. You also haven't provided one single shred of proof of your own (a reality show is not proof). You can insult me and dismiss me with "bro" all you like (btw, I'm female), but you're not convincing anyone.


I have provided proof don't accuse me of not doing so you on the other hand have went into creative writing (i.e. the whole i see he how he feels on tv) and this continuous assumption of my ignorance towards this "positive method" after realizing the first set of links you provided for the subject of cesar's past clients were actually supportive of my argument.

I know about the "scientific" references that spoke about Millan but as i said, the fact that his methods are shown to have success then he has proven them wrong on their judgement on him. Besides, some who didn't agree with Millan now hold a good amount of respect for him: Ian Dunbar, Bob Bailey, Mark Harden... even the American Humane Association - who criticized Millan allot of cruelty changed their minds after being invited to watch onset. And remember my last challenge, show me anything with his critiques running/skatting around with about 50+ wayward power breeds 

The whole Millan hate is really based on the senseless western mentality of discipline -- in where any form of physical touch is interpreted as wrong. "choking, punching, kicking...".


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Mother dogs "touch" their young in the underbelly/groin area with their foot? They jab their babies in the neck? They forcefully pin them to the ground? Provide proof of this, please.


More exposure as to why i'm using the word "sensitive" on you. You are still exaggerating Millan's touches as actual hits. "Jabs?" LOL
Yes, mothers force their young to lay at the ground through pinning and leaving their paw over the two, if the fight is that bad the mother will growl while her paws are pinning the young down. 

The "jab" you are talk about on the neck is a tap, the impact is weak and it's equivalent to me tapping you from behind to get your attention. The tap is used to snap the dog out of the state of mind it's in.. mothers do touch their young as well in the underbelly, using their nose. They also bite on the neck for correct. 

How many times do i have to say that you guys have to stop thinking that millan's touches are in the impact of any physicality as to what you think? The more you start referencing the touches to actual hits, the more i'm going to use the word sensitive. 



> And I bet that she wouldn't have kept advancing on and looming over a resource guarder who was warning her of an imminent bite, so she wouldn't have gotten bitten in the first place. Too bad speculation about a situation that didn't and will never happen is meaningless in a debate.


Yeah sure maybe.. but hey the Benjy the attacking food Cockerspaniel had to be put down so why can't I speculate?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> I have provided proof don't accuse me of not doing so


What proof? If you posted any links, I missed them. Repost?



> you on the other hand have went into creative writing (i.e. the whole i see he how he feels on tv) and this continuous assumption of my ignorance towards this "positive method" after realizing the first set of links you provided for the subject of cesar's past clients were actually supportive of my argument.


How did my links support your argument? They showed some of Cesar's failures. You decided to twist that and put the blame on the owners. You can't possibly know whether or not they continued using Cesar's techniques after he left; you're just assuming that they did not and that the dogs regressed. Even the show's producer only boasts an 80% success rate. What's the opposite of success? Because that's the other 20%.

I'm not the only one who has stated that you're ignorant of what "positive methods" really are. It's no assumption; it's fact. You have said, more than once, that positive techniques are only good for teaching the basics like "sit," and that they don't work on aggressive dogs. Various people have provided evidence that not only do they work on aggressive dogs, but they can be used to teach a variety of species (including dangerous predators) complex behaviors.



> I know about the "scientific" references that spoke about Millan but as i said, the fact that his methods are shown to have success then he has proven them wrong on their judgement on him.


Again, please provide proof that his methods are successful -- proof that is not an episode of his TV show. Reality TV is not proof of anything.



> And remember my last challenge, show me anything with his critiques running/skatting around with about 50+ wayward power breeds


Like I said, Millan has built a multi-million-dollar empire, with a popular reality show, books, and loads of merchandise. Real behaviorists and certified trainers are not pulling in the money required to build a huge compound and pay a staff to look after 50+ dogs. You're setting up a "challenge" that you know no one can answer because you don't want to lose an argument.



> The whole Millan hate is really based on the senseless western mentality of discipline -- in where any form of physical touch is interpreted as wrong. "choking, punching, kicking...".


This, once again, just proves that you don't understand positive training at all, or the arguments any of us are making here. The "touching" isn't even the real issue. The issue is that Millan is getting results by suppressing behaviors, by shutting dogs down. He is bullying -- sometimes physically, sometimes mentally -- dogs into submission. This can be done very calmly and does not always involve physically forcing a dog. That doesn't make it a good method. I know you don't care for experts unless they're running around with 50 pits and rotties at their heels, but I like how this guy puts it:



> Let me start with what I like about Millan’s message: exercise, calmness, and leadership. I absolutely agree that a huge portion of the behavioral issues people see in their dogs can be ameliorated through increased exercise and mental stimulation. Canids evolved to spend a large portion of their lives active and challenged, and sticking them in a room all day with rich foods and little exercise leads to many problems. I also agree that canids thrive in an environment with clear boundaries and a calm and strong leader. This allows them to be relaxed and confident and know how to behave. I also recognize that many average pet homes want a dog that is as “shut-down” as possible: they do not want a happy, curious, and confident pet, they want a pet that just lies quietly in the corner, and Cesar’s techniques are in many instances an effective path to that end.
> 
> Now to the negatives about Millan’s techniques:
> 
> Impatient: Millan often takes little time to get to know the dog, or to teach it what is desired, or to build a relationship, he simply grabs the dog, puts it into the situation where it is known to have problems, and then corrects it for failure. In most cases, good training is just the opposite of this. You find situations in which the dog can succeed, and then you gradually increase the difficulty of the situation while rewarding the dog for success at each step. Good training is often almost invisible.


There is a lot more if you follow the link.



> Yes, mothers force their young to lay at the ground through pinning and leaving their paw over the two, if the fight is that bad the mother will growl while her paws are pinning the young down.
> 
> The "jab" you are talk about on the neck is a tap, the impact is weak and it's equivalent to me tapping you from behind to get your attention. The tap is used to snap the dog out of the state of mind it's in.. mothers do touch their young as well in the underbelly, using their nose. They also bite on the neck for correct.


Proof, please, especially about the pinning.



> I'm done arguing with you because you are the only one who doesn't know what he is talking about


So much for that, huh?


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm not going to bother contributing to this... because I think everyone has it covered, especially Crantastic, and doing a dang good job at it . But...



> "Training is something you do with your dog, not to your dog."


I love that quote!


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Right, so this thread is a dangerous distraction from studying for the 3x back-to-back final exams I have tomorrow morning, but I've been tempted to post for quite some time. 

Positive, reward-based training (by other names) is a concept that has been covered to death in the scientific literature of recent years by a huge number of researchers using a wide variety of methods and a vast spread of species. It works, pretty darn well, and not simply to teach useless tricks. To say that positive methods cannot or do not work for aggression, resource guarding, or other serious cases is plain wrong. Many trainers and behaviorists use these techniques with enormous success (Patricia McConnell comes to mind).

CM is a charismatic, confident, striking personality whose training techniques offer more than sufficient drama for a popular TV show. However, the man is self-taught and to my eyes and those of a great many dog-saavy owners, veterinarians, and behaviorists, he is horrible at reading dogs in the scientifically accepted sense. The man creates his own vocabulary with mismatched definitions for the behaviors he sees and "fixes" them in ways that, while arguably effective or ineffective, are _unnecessarily _stressful and sometimes violent to the dog. 

I recently began watching his show as it has become available on Netflix. Nothing on there thus far that I've seen needs to be fixed with aggressive confrontation, yet he uses it all the time. I find it disturbing that we've popularized his terms and techniques when they're, frankly, incorrect and often dangerous for the average person to attempt with their own dogs. Not to mention how unnecessary they are. These problems can be fixed with positive training! It's easier on the dog, safer for the trainer, and I've seen strong indication that it's a whole lot more successful in the long run. 

To me, there is no question to which training technique is better. The bigger question is why the heck people continue to use CM's methods.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> What proof? If you posted any links, I missed them. Repost?


The links you psoted, including that Jindo one. lol



> How did my links support your argument? They showed some of Cesar's failures. You decided to twist that and put the blame on the owners. You can't possibly know whether or not they continued using Cesar's techniques after he left; you're just assuming that they did not and that the dogs regressed. Even the show's producer only boasts an 80% success rate. What's the opposite of success? Because that's the other 20%.


Uh no they didn't, you didn't even bother to read it. Those links even said they "could not do it" successfully after he left how am i blaming it on the owners when they even expressed it being their incompetence already. :wave: Wake up.

I already addressed that 80% thing. There is no such thing as 100%, one of the contributing factors is the level of energy of the dog. please re-read that. 



> I'm not the only one who has stated that you're ignorant of what "positive methods" really are. It's no assumption; it's fact. You have said, more than once, that positive techniques are only good for teaching the basics like "sit," and that they don't work on aggressive dogs. Various people have provided evidence that not only do they work on aggressive dogs, but they can be used to teach a variety of species (including dangerous predators) complex behaviors.


I'm not ignorant on positive methods, what i am saying is highly accurate. those positive methods are not going to be as to anywhere superior to any of the serious cases shown in the DW. I'm using the whole "sit" thing to make a point with Victoria's methods --as seen in her show-- being only capable of handling the average. It's fact, again "Benjy".



> Again, please provide proof that his methods are successful -- proof that is not an episode of his TV show. Reality TV is not proof of anything.


Why can't that be considered as proof? The clients are real you can find a few of them on the net maybe. You are trying now to make the whole thing like a script just to take away all the positive results it has done. Your arguments are now getting weaker.



> Like I said, Millan has built a multi-million-dollar empire, with a popular reality show, books, and loads of merchandise. Real behaviorists and certified trainers are not pulling in the money required to build a huge compound and pay a staff to look after 50+ dogs. You're setting up a "challenge" that you know no one can answer because you don't want to lose an argument.


And how did that happen? This guy started as a broke illegal immigrant how do you think this guy got the recognition? This whole block you just said gave is "oh he's just rich that's why" excuse. Please. It's his ability that got his foot onto being a celebrity.


> This, once again, just proves that you don't understand positive training at all, or the arguments any of us are making here. The "touching" isn't even the real issue. The issue is that Millan is getting results by suppressing behaviors, by shutting dogs down. He is bullying -- sometimes physically, sometimes mentally -- dogs into submission. This can be done very calmly and does not always involve physically forcing a dog. That doesn't make it a good method. I know you don't care for experts unless they're running around with 50 pits and rotties at their heels, but I like how this guy puts it:


I was waiting for you to give the term "shut down". Now the same old "he's bullying" nonsense. You are the only one who has the misunderstanding of methods here, you've been using the word "jap", "choke"... etc in reference to the touches of millan and that shows ignorance. You are now using the same ignorant accusations as "shut-down". Guess what, you can't just emotionally shut-down an aggressive dog with out beating the heck out of it. I think it's hilarious that people have this concept of millan bullying an attacking Rottweiler with out the use of a stick or any physical hits (remember, taps are not hits so don't be sensitive). That's some magic there i think he should teach some cops that because for some reason repeated nightstick strikes wasn't enough to stop a bunch of Rotts during a riot in spain. Again with the whole "skating/running with 50+ wayward breeds again" some of those dogs being aggressive issue dogs.. if the dog is running along in a pack that many and under control, that is not "shut down". 



> There is a lot more if you follow the link.


Yes, i've seen the link many times in google. Articles on the internet are proof than tv to some i suppose but like i've been saying, if you can show me anything where these guys can ran/skate with 50+ dogs with aggression issues then why should i listen to them about Millan? That's like being told not to listen to Bill gates about Computer stuff because some Computer Science expert who also has a degree said so. My eyes will see what i fact, thank you. 



> Proof, please, especially about the pinning.
> So much for that, huh?


http://www.canismajor.com/dog/alpha1.html
http://www.dog-trainer.biz/pdf/CorrectingYourDog.pdf
http://www.bountifulfarm.com/Dog Discipline.html


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cisco said:


> Weren't you one of the guys who used the "he kicks...." stuff earlier? Now, you are still going with the exaggerated physical methods cesar showed the "choking/hanging..." there was nothing ever displayed by that. I hope you are not getting that with the episode where Cesar was with a black biting dog who was raging all over the place and forcing cesar to raise the leash to avoid getting bit. That's the reason why i've been using the term "sensitives".
> 
> 
> I have provided proof don't accuse me of not doing so you on the other hand have went into creative writing (i.e. the whole i see he how he feels on tv) and this continuous assumption of my ignorance towards this "positive method" after realizing the first set of links you provided for the subject of cesar's past clients were actually supportive of my argument.
> ...


I know this has nothing to do with anything but why do you like the guy so much? Why can't you admit that he isn't perfect & his ways don't work for every dog? They certainly wouldn't be welcomed here with mine.

There is no dominance with dogs YOU control everything in the dogs world: food, treats, toys, play access to outside/inside, you drive the car that goes to all the fun places ... Do you think the dog doesn't notice this? Like I have said before WE are the humans, WE are SUPPOSED to be smarter then they are ... So maybe we should start acting like it? 

I remember 2 episodes, one with the jack Russell's (both females) that suddenly started not getting along.this is where his "I can't lose" attitude comes in, because I hate to break it to you man but JRTs in a lot of instances do NOT get on with others of the same sex, fixed or not & I have seen many that just one day stop getting along, for whatever reason. Once that happens there is usually no repairing that.

Another was the 2 episodes he did with the ACDs ... I won't make this too long by getting into it but those dogs were good, good dogs that showed a lot of restraint ... Because (like I would ever need him anyway because I don't) had that been Izze & he challenged her like he did those dogs, he would have been hurt no question. Sure you have to adopt a "take no sh**" attitude with these guys but within moderation, there are other ways I can get them to respect me & they don't include anything CM does.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

This goes for Victoria, Cesar and any other TV trainer....its tv. Lots goes on that we never see. My problem with Cesar is that people watch his show and try to emulate him and train their dogs by what they see on TV. How many people out there are using their foot on their dog in what looks to me to be a kick more than some love tap, alpha rolling their dog etc?


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## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Actually, all of this, but I shouldn't engage, either. I should, and am, self-moderating enough to unsub from the thread, though, because I don't think I want to know that anyone here that I otherwise consider intelligent and sane loves Milan. It just won't accomplish anything good.


OMG That is so wise (and true). I read further than I should have. Sigh... oh well. 

(Monty)


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

@inkedmarie: that is understandable. Allot of cesar's actions can't be emulated if it's not fully understood. The kicks are taps and have a light impact because if the impacts were of an intensity as to what most people exaggerate then you would see a different reaction from a dog. If you ever seen a dog really get kicked in that area, you would know cesar's "kicks" are different. Touches are simply made for the sake of snapping the dog out of it's state of mind. 



dogdragoness said:


> I know this has nothing to do with anything but why do you like the guy so much? Why can't you admit that he isn't perfect & his ways don't work for every dog? They certainly wouldn't be welcomed here with mine.


Did i say he is perfect? He has admitted that he has made mistakes, even in a few DW episodes. This is a CM vs VS thread so i'm on the side of Cesar. I like Cesar allot because of his methods having allot of Tai-chi in it but i do follow Ian more because i've known about him longer.. People who were raised or familiar with Eastern like philosophies like Millan because of his eastern style of philosophy. With the additional fact that he does not give up on dogs. Again I will repeat the best example: *Benjy the aggressive cockerspaniel*. I repeat that because it is an embarrassment. 
Anybody here can fling around excuses as much as they want but that is the perfect example on the measure of both methods. That positive method trainer ran into a case normally held by a cesar's method and look at the results 

"this dog (COCKERSPANIEL) has mauled before, it will maul again... the best is to put the dog down."

I turn to Dog whisperer. There is a case (actually many other cases) just like that, but i'll pick the one that didn't have a remedy: Oscar the PITBULL. Oscar the pitbull showed aggression towards the owners little kid daughter two and other children. Cesar takes him for weeks, tests him out with other children, rabbits, dolls.... in the end Oscar can't be safe (especially since the owners have a new baby). What does Cesar do, he suggests for a dog swap and oscar becomes a service dog. If you are not bias you can see the real positive method from that? 



> There is no dominance with dogs YOU control everything in the dogs world: food, treats, toys, play access to outside/inside, you drive the car that goes to all the fun places ... Do you think the dog doesn't notice this? Like I have said before WE are the humans, WE are SUPPOSED to be smarter then they are ... So maybe we should start acting like it?


But showing dominance and leadership isn't a wrong thing anyway? Food, treats, toys, play access.. these are affections and it is correct that it should come after the exercise, discipline, and affection. Just because we are humans doesn't mean that throwing disciplin or showing dominance to a dog is cruel. I can understand smacking a dog really hard until he bows down being cruel but standing infront of a dog to block an area he's not supposed to go to teach it to stop misbehaving and listen isn't cruel. That's the problem with you westerns, you automatically get so sensitive to forms of discipline if there is no form of reward or "fairness" in it. 



> I remember 2 episodes, one with the jack Russell's (both females) that suddenly started not getting along.this is where his "I can't lose" attitude comes in, because I hate to break it to you man but JRTs in a lot of instances do NOT get on with others of the same sex, fixed or not & I have seen many that just one day stop getting along, for whatever reason. Once that happens there is usually no repairing that.


I don't see why the "i can't lose" is a bad thing. If he loses, then that would be very stressful for the client and also hope gets hurt for the dog that is supposed to be remedied. There are many cases I have never seen IRL either, that doesn't mean that it can't happen. That episode didn't end in a fix by the way


> Another was the 2 episodes he did with the ACDs ... I won't make this too long by getting into it but those dogs were good, good dogs that showed a lot of restraint ... Because (like I would ever need him anyway because I don't) had that been Izze & he challenged her like he did those dogs, he would have been hurt no question. Sure you have to adopt a "take no sh**" attitude with these guys but within moderation, there are other ways I can get them to respect me & they don't include anything CM does.


Because you still think that displaying dominance/leadership is a form of emotional abuse and the taps have the impact of physical hits. As i said "sensitive".

as to the rest who think people who actually like CM's methods to be unintelligent, you are like the same people who will yell/scold child abuse when a parent slaps his/her child in the butt for misbehaving. The whole accusation of those taps being actual kicks, the chokes, the flooding, the shut downs are all unintelligent and just shows that your sensitivity levels can't handle disciplinary methods involving physical correction. I've said it before and provided links as to how mother dogs treat their young. if you go to dog forums that are asian/hispanic populated or just of Eastern like culture they actually like millan and are intelligent enough to tell the difference between abuse and discipline. 

Benjy (cockerspaniel) and Jonbee (the Jindo) comparison was already given earlier. One aggression under the positive method and one aggression under the Cesarsway. Read the results of both --along with their breeds and actual aggression triggers. That was already the biggest refutation. sorry.. i'm already getting tired if you guys feel that dog's should be given "affection affection affection" or a teddy bear treatment that's all on you but until the time you start showing those positive methods to work on attacking Jindo's, Pitbulls, and Rotts then.... endgame.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Um, nobody said that body blocking is cruel. That's a common tactic in positive training, as well.

Look, you're not understanding that a 20% failure rate means those dogs get put to sleep or their owners just deal. If he "swaps" the dog out, that's not a failure. 

And, yes, a dog who is shut down can still run with other dogs and otherwise appear "normal". Which is why a lot of people don't recognize when a dog is shut down.

Oh---and just because some people SAY a mother dog rolls her puppies aggressively doesn't mean it's true. Do you have a video of a mother dog actually doing it?


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## skitty56 (Jan 22, 2012)

I wasn't going to reply at all, but I do have to say-you realize you're ignoring tons of scientifically based research, tons of books by actual behaviorists (Patricia McConnell in particular) who deal with dogs with 'aggression' issues, trainers with decades of experience, and defending one uneducated, self taught idiot with a TV show?


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

cisco said:


> Yes they do. The majority of dogs in DW are of those issues.. evidence is evidence bro, and that is already a resource. It's just a much stricter method.. like i said in the beginning, Cesar is like that of martial arts in his methods (allot of relevance to Tai chi) meaning that his methods are not for "dummies". If a man/kid starts copying his stuff on a neighbor dog who is acting the same way as to what he/she saw on tv, they will get bit.


Dummies are the only people his methods ARE for, lol. Evidence would be evidence if there was any, bro. Instead the few studies we have on training methods point to physical punishment escalating aggressive behavior, BRO. Episodes of a TV show are not evidence of _anything._

Tonight I'm going to somebody's house to work with their fear aggressive Aussie (dog has a bite history) with positive methods, but no hey, I'm sure I should be watching Nat Geo instead, LOL.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Um, nobody said that body blocking is cruel. That's a common tactic in positive training, as well.
> 
> Look, you're not understanding that a 20% failure rate means those dogs get put to sleep or their owners just deal. If he "swaps" the dog out, that's not a failure.


Yeah that's his last resort, to swap the dog if that 20% comes in. He doesn't suggest the euthanasia unless the owner really insists on it. Please re-read that reply involving the energy level. 



> And, yes, a dog who is shut down can still run with other dogs and otherwise appear "normal". Which is why a lot of people don't recognize when a dog is shut down.


So how do you know that they are shut down if they are actually running and appear to be happy? These are attacking ROTTWEILERS, how do you emotionally shut down those dogs with that behavior issue? lol come on. 



> Oh---and just because some people SAY a mother dog rolls her puppies aggressively doesn't mean it's true. Do you have a video of a mother dog actually doing it?


I've shown you so many dog science links and that's not good enough for you? 


@skitty: I have not ignored anything. That "research" is only of weight due to "scientific" term being pasted on it. I have already covered that somewhere here with naming experts who critiqued CM before and are now in good terms with his style. Additionally, until those guys featured on those "scientific studied" talks can show me that they've managed to skate with about 50+ wayward power breed dogs and have them all under control then there CM wins due to visible evidence.



Emily1188 said:


> Dummies are the only people his methods ARE for, lol. Evidence would be evidence if there was any, bro. Instead the few studies we have on training methods point to physical punishment escalating aggressive behavior, BRO. Episodes of a TV show are not evidence of _anything._
> .


No his methods are not for dummies because if a person does his methods with out any knowledge of it or the necessities of the energy concepts, then he/she will get bit. Victoria's episodes were all average cases and her methods are more suitable for the majority due to the less penalty that comes from error so that positive method is the actual method for dummies. The episodes can be dismissed as evidence but the clients of that episode can't. One evidence on his method was already posted with that Jindo part and the adoption center he transferred to. please re-read that.

- you see now i'm being dragged into repeating arguments that were already given is there anymore need to continue with this? The whole Jindo thing in the beginning was the biggest refutation, that was an evident success of an actual dangerous past case all under Cesar's method. But yes, the "Positive methods as to with Benjy again"...


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## skitty56 (Jan 22, 2012)

You read bits of one or two things, took something, twisted it to fit what you want to believe, then dismissed it. That's not studying, learning or paying attention. You're only 'evidence' is a TV show heavily edited and censored to show what they want. I doubt you've even heard of, much less read actual, respected trainers and behaviorists-because they all know Cesar knows little to nothing about dogs.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

cisco said:


> Yeah that's his last resort, to swap the dog if that 20% comes in. He doesn't suggest the euthanasia unless the owner really insists on it. Please re-read that reply involving the energy level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL this is just funny, why do I do this to myself? 

Anyway, like I said... I used to watch every episode, religiously. Been there, BRO. Over it, fortunately, and far better educated now. I hope the same for you but you will have to make a choice to educate yourself beyond what you watch on TV. Until you do that, you are simply not a good use of myself (or anyone's) energies and efforts.


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## AkCrimson (Oct 12, 2011)

Emily1188 said:


> Anyway, like I said... I used to watch every episode, religiously. Been there, BRO. Over it, fortunately, and far better educated now. I hope the same for you but you will have to make a choice to educate yourself beyond what you watch on TV. Until you do that, you are simply not a good use of myself (or anyone's) energies and efforts.


^THIS. Clearly cisco is either a sadly misinformed dog owner or trolling. Either way, clearly not worth the effort of a response. I do feel sad for his dogs though, but I suppose anyone so blind to right and wrong can't be expected to do any good to those underneath them. Sad =(


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I can't help myself and have to jump in here before my head explodes.

It's cocker _ spaniel. Not cockerspaniel.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

skitty56 said:


> You read bits of one or two things, took something, twisted it to fit what you want to believe, then dismissed it. That's not studying, learning or paying attention. You're only 'evidence' is a TV show heavily edited and censored to show what they want. I doubt you've even heard of, much less read actual, respected trainers and behaviorists-because they all know Cesar knows little to nothing about dogs.


No i don't read bits. I read the whole thing. You think these links are new to me? No. I've read them a long time ago before i signed up on this site. You are now making assumptions and throwing out accusations because i have been effectively refuting all of you even if you want to think i'm not. The whole thing was already finished with that Jonbee - Benjy example. Watch on youtube of victoria's personal videos on how to discipline your dog, the bashing of the things cesar does (the exact same words here) and talks about effective "positive methods" that will work on any dog including the "red zone" ones. But guess how that all turned out once she actually ran into a case that is normally showed in DW episode. LOL (Jonbee the jindu). I've already showed you proof as well as to how dogs discipline each other and the physical touches cesar does is just of that mimicry but still, you guys want to view it as an actual impact type of a hit. 

I've already listed the behaviorists and dog experts who actually have good things to say about cesar --Ian Dunbar for example. Saying Cesar knows nothing about dogs is ignorance; those "behaviorists" are the ones who have inferior knowledge towards dogs because who is the one is capable roller blading with a pack of pit's, rotts, and gsd's with past behavior issues them or him? 

You guys can't do anything but try to talk to me as if i am dumb for considering Cesar's methods be good. Such as emily who's now using the " i used to be on that ship... once i got educated" line which is a common retort on any forum when someone wants weight on their arguments.

-Emily you can make all that "it's just tv" excuses as much as you want. Try your best to de-value that because in the end, the success' and issues of those episodes where real and so were their clients. Again with Jonbee link and other follow ups that were posted so please give that "con-for script" a rest. Because the links about those clients posted throw your arguments out of the window.... But please, go on with how educated you became.:lie:


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm just going to say this:

You try doing the whole "bite" thing with your hand that CM loves to do on a dog focused on something else (leash reactivity, dog reactivity, etc.), you're going to get bit. Plain and simple. You try alpha rolling a dog in the same state? Again, you'll get bit.

Sorry, but CM's methods do NOT work on "aggressive" dogs. Period.

I took my foster to a behaviorist (recommended by my rescue) who works with bully breeds. He used a choke chain, and convinced us that the noise is what snaps them out, not the choking. Within a week, my foster was afraid to go outside, and became even more reactive towards dogs. I switched back to my Easy-Walk, went back to r+ (counterconditioning), and she was a hundred times better within two-three walks.

CM's methods LOOK like they fix a problem at first... but it is really just temporary. Your dog will end up scared, and more aggressive. Period. That's it. I would never use CM's methods on any breed, especially the more powerful ones, and definitely nto on any dog with aggression issues.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

@cisco you reference tai chi ... But do you really understand it? Or any martial art for they matter?
Here is a link (Wikipedia I know but it's a pretty good article) : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi_chuan

It's obivous that you have made up your mind, it saddens me how close minded you are.

Also for the record, rotties, bully breeds & mastiff breeds are NO DIFFERENT then any other breed. A dogs breed means nothing, I have met ACDs & even JRT's that were harder then most rotties, mastiffs & bully breeds.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Um, yeah, dogtrainer.biz is really a "dog science" site, LOL. Have you ever actually SEEN a mother dog pin her puppies? 

A dog that is shut down does not offer behaviors. He does only what he's told, nothing else (except biological imperatives like elimination, etc.). Many people mistake this for being well-behaved. But in reality it's learned helplessness. You might contact the member here Amaryllis---her dog was ruined by CM type training methods, it's taken months for her to get him to offer behaviors. I'm sure his last owner was thrilled with how "well-behaved" he was :/.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly, who freaking cares? They're tv personalities. Go find a real trainer in your area who has had a lot of success with a lot of dogs. Learn from them instead of people on tv. You will never beat hands on experience from someone with good credentials. CM and Victoria are no-names in the world of dog training, really, except for John Q Public that watches a lot of tv. There are SO MANY other, better options out there.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

@taquitos. Yes you are going to get bit. How many times have i said that Cesar's methods are not for amateurs. It's even stated in the opening of the DW show "don't perform these techniques w/o consulting a professional". If you are using claw bites, finger/foot taps, leash handling at the wrong/inappropriate time then anybody will get bit. As i said before, i recommend the "positive methods --Victoria's way" when it comes to people who don't know how execute discipline right. Some people may think that the kick taps of cesar should be at a certain level impact when it shouldn't be, or use the claw method on certain situations when it's not right. I'm open minded, buddy. I have not fully dismissed Victoria's methods and have even stated supporting it for the average owner on average reasons... You guys are the only ones who are close minded because all of you have not let go of the fact that cesar's physical touches are not as physical as posted here and ignored all the success with harder issues given here (Jonbee...).



dogdragoness said:


> @cisco you reference tai chi ... But do you really understand it? Or any martial art for they matter?
> Here is a link (Wikipedia I know but it's a pretty good article) : http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_chi_chuan
> 
> It's obivous that you have made up your mind, it saddens me how close minded you are.
> ...


"Tai-chi" in reference to the philosophies involving energy. The calm assertiveness.. you read the philosophy description involving the "brute force" part, i suppose... That jack russel episode is a good example of a form of that philosophy if you can see his posture as he kneels in the middle while he was holding the dogs at both ends. There is a difference in breeds when we talk about power. Power in terms of attack. Rotts, Pitts, and GSD's are known for their power and when i use the "skating with 50+ of those type of dogs" i am bringing in their power as the main point of it. That part of yours was a bit off..

@willowy. Yes i have seen a mother dog pin her puppies. Quit arguing about that because i already gave more than 1 reference on how mother dogs discipline, it's fact. Pinning, biting, nose, growling, barking is all how a mother dog disciplines.
She likely didn't do the methods right.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh, Amaryllis didn't make her dog shut down. The last owner did. I can't really believe there's a "right" 
way to intimidate a dog into "behaving". 

And, no, it's not fact that a mother dog abuses her puppies. If they roll, it's an appeasement behavior offered willingly by the pups. Dogs only forcibly roll each other if the fight has gotten down to life or death. Forcible rolling is a death threat in dog language. Like holding a knife to a human's throat. And, really, none of those links you put up were any kind of "dog science" at all. They were trainers trying to justify their own methods.

Calm assertiveness is all very great. Intimidation and violence are not.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Oh, Amaryllis didn't make her dog shut down. The last owner did. I can't really believe there's a "right"
> way to intimidate a dog into "behaving".


Add me to the list of people with shut down dogs by previous training methods. Jack wasn't even subjected to CM level of intimidation; he was just compulsion trained and had the odd leash correction. It took me a YEAR for him to do anything willingly or to, you know, act like a dog instead of a beautifully behaved robot. 

I like my dogs happy, thanks.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

For the record, I have never ever seen or heard of a mother dog pinning her pups. Growling at them when they play a little rough? Sure. Picking them up and removing them from a situation? Of course. 

I have seen videos of Ceasar's "touches" causing a dog to wriggle in pain and a husky has actually reacted and tried to bite him. Luckily, Ceasar was quick enough to string that husky up by the choke chain in time to prevent a bite. The fact of the matter is that positive training CAN and has corrected aggression problems in dogs (of all breeds!). It can also teach them how to sit, play dead, tolerate nail trimmings, and to be less leash reactive. It's a broad spectrum training technique. 

Does Ceasar's method work? Some say it does. All I ever see on his show are dogs that are shut down or too afraid to make a wrong move. I don't want my dog to fear me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> I've already listed the behaviorists and dog experts who actually have good things to say about cesar --Ian Dunbar for example. Saying Cesar knows nothing about dogs is ignorance; those "behaviorists" are the ones who have inferior knowledge towards dogs because who is the one is capable roller blading with a pack of pit's, rotts, and gsd's with past behavior issues them or him?


Haha! This thread just keeps getting funnier and funnier. Patricia McConnell has a PhD and has helped tons of dogs, you guys, but she doesn't roller-blade with a pack of 50 rotties, so it's all meaningless!

Also, have you read any Dunbar? He doesn't use Cesar's methods and in fact speaks out against them. I'm glad that he's helping Cesar out, but that doesn't mean he loves everything the guy does.



> -Emily you can make all that "it's just tv" excuses as much as you want. Try your best to de-value that because in the end, the success' and issues of those episodes where real and so were their clients. Again with Jonbee link and other follow ups that were posted so please give that "con-for script" a rest. Because the links about those clients posted throw your arguments out of the window.... But please, go on with how educated you became.:lie:


JonBee was not a success. And yes, I watched the whole episode. Ruby was not a success, either. That dog whose teeth had to be filed down was not a success. 20% of the dogs Cesar works with are not successes... in other words, they are failures. Reality TV stars real people, but is heavily edited to present the story the producers want to tell (I even posted a video earlier _from the show's producers_ showing how they amp dogs up to make them look worse on TV, which is just one small example of this). If you were truly the open-minded and intelligent person you claim to be, you would look beyond a TV show -- do some real reading, educate yourself on what positive training entails and what it's used for (because although you keep claiming you have done this, your posts make it clear that you don't understand it), and be able to debate this issue without resorting to "insults" (I say "insults" because I actually find them funny) like "you westerners are just too sensitive."



> You are now making assumptions and throwing out accusations because i have been effectively refuting all of you even if you want to think i'm not.


Oh, man, thanks for the laugh! This has been fun. I have to go now (meeting up with a friend for a dog walk), but I'll be back.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

> Yes i have seen a mother dog pin her puppies. Quit arguing about that because i already gave more than 1 reference on how mother dogs discipline, it's fact. Pinning, biting, nose, growling, barking is all how a mother dog disciplines.


But ... Humans are not dogs, my dogs correct each other, they bite each other, growl, posture, stand over each other etc but I don't do that to them ... Why? There are a few reasons for this.

Reason 1: I don't need to like I have said before I don't need too, in my dogs eyes I am already dominant. I control every aspect of their lives & the dogs know this. They know they do not; go outside, play, go on trips, walks, come inside at night, all things both fun & essential for the dogs well being COME FROM ME therefore that makes me "dominant" in a since.

A true "alpha" doesn't squabble or insert himself in squabbles, the highest ranking members/personalities in a pack or "group" (since the fact if dogs even form "packs" or not is in itself debated) so unless I have a "I am gonna kill you" fight to the death on my hands, I don't insert myself in my dogs arguments ... It's not my business lol.

I remember the episode of DW with the dog "Luna" who was scared of everything, (the one who jumped Cesar's yard fence at his house) at one point her & another dog got into a squabble, it wasn't anything. Or it shouldn't have been, my dogs have disagreements like that before. The problem (or so I believe) is because CM doesn't or neve has let his dogs sort outdid own beefs, which IME actually makes the squabbles that do happen worse because it takes away the dogs ability to sort out their own problems.

My dogs get along very well, better then his IMO because they are allowed to express themselves, have opinions & just ... Be dogs. I wish I had made a video of buddy when I first got him, even though he has ablongnway to go (& I still do too because I did doubt myself for a while there as others can remember) everyone here is allowed to be themselves.

Also for the record, JRT's & ACDs IME are far more "bad ass " then any bully or rott, all the bully's & rotts I have met are like ... Total marshmallows. The only reason they seen as much of a hand full is because hey don't weigh 90 x lbs.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Neither.
> 
> Why? Because I prefer real trainers, those that have actually trialed their dogs or have done actual work with their dogs. Not an actress with an inflated head and a terrible wardrobe, not an ego maniac who has let fame cloud his judgement. I don't particularly care for any TV trainer.



What they said....


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

cisco said:


> @taquitos. Yes you are going to get bit. How many times have i said that Cesar's methods are not for amateurs. It's even stated in the opening of the DW show "don't perform these techniques w/o consulting a professional". If you are using claw bites, finger/foot taps, leash handling at the wrong/inappropriate time then anybody will get bit. As i said before, i recommend the "positive methods --Victoria's way" when it comes to people who don't know how execute discipline right. Some people may think that the kick taps of cesar should be at a certain level impact when it shouldn't be, or use the claw method on certain situations when it's not right. I'm open minded, buddy. I have not fully dismissed Victoria's methods and have even stated supporting it for the average owner on average reasons... You guys are the only ones who are close minded because all of you have not let go of the fact that cesar's physical touches are not as physical as posted here and ignored all the success with harder issues given here (Jonbee...).


By that reason, he should never get bit since he's a professional, but he does... multiple times lol. I can think of at least two episodes where he got bit doing what he does lol.

I also have no clue why you're taking it so personally? The thread asks whether ANYONE ON THIS FORUM prefers CM VS VS. My opinion is that CM's methods are dangerous, both for the dog and the owner. If they should only be done by "professionals", I don't understand why he encourages the owners of these dogs, who are FAR from being pros, to practice his methods?? He always stresses the importance of consistency. How the heck are these people supposed to do what he does when he is gone if they are for "pros only"?

It's not safe. It's not effective. It's just no good and no one should be getting ideas from his show. That's it.

We're not "close minded". There is a difference between close mindedness and being well informed. When hundreds of dogs are put down for being "aggressive" because people f*cked up and went to trainers similar to their CM, or raised their dogs the "Cesar" way, I don't think it's much of a stretch to dislike the show? I foster pits and other rescue dogs, many of them given up because people f*cked up and didn't raise them right. 

So my point is this: If what he does cannot be done by anyone else but a pro, then there is no sense in it actually helping the clients. You can't "cure" a dog with reactivity issues in just a few sessions, and if you, yourself, can't practice what the trainer preaches.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> What they said....


Mrs. Boats you own rotties, please enlighten us about how dangerous & vicious they are if you don't neck-jab & heel-kick them at every opportunity


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

You mentioned earlier that we probably are the type of people who object to spanking. I know I do. Why? Because the scientific community has enough evidence to prove it DOESN'T WORK.

Physical violence, intimidation, punishment...these are all outdated methods of trying to impose one person's will on another or on an animal. It takes a bit more thought and work to convince another person or dog that they WANT to do what you want, but you end up with a more reliable outcome, rather than a dog or person who only does what you want out of fear or because you are there or when they are afraid they will be caught.

Still, these old methods are easier for the parent or trainer and they are strongly reinforcing in themselves. It feels GOOD to punish. It feels righteous and provides an emotional release. It requires less thought or effort than trying to understand the underlying cause of behavior and work on that. It often seems to work quicker than unraveling all those behavior chains to find the root cause. It makes us feel macho or stronger or more in control. However, it only really works as long as the child or dog is afraid of us. Once that fear is gone or has reached a point where the dog or child fears too much, then either way...it backfires.

So, yes, I also don't hit my children. Why? Because I don't have to and there are other methods of parenting that are far more effective without the negative risks.

In the end, though, you feel justified in treating children and dogs, and anyone less powerful than you however you want...because you can. No amount of scientific evidence either way is going to convince you or change the way you treat them. I find that just very, very sad, both for you and for the dogs and children you deal with.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That one thing really bothers me. You dont see Victoria or Cesar either actually trialling with any dogs.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Oh, Amaryllis didn't make her dog shut down. The last owner did. I can't really believe there's a "right"
> way to intimidate a dog into "behaving".


Then the last owner did it wrong. First enough with the "intimidate", Cesar's methods do not involve intimidation. It's called discipline. The whole "intimidation" is the additional reason as to why i use the word "sensitives" on all of you. Intimidation is an action causing fear.



> And, no, it's not fact that a mother dog abuses her puppies. If they roll, it's an appeasement behavior offered willingly by the pups. Dogs only forcibly roll each other if the fight has gotten down to life or death. Forcible rolling is a death threat in dog language. Like holding a knife to a human's throat. And, really, none of those links you put up were any kind of "dog science" at all. They were trainers trying to justify their own methods.
> 
> Calm assertiveness is all very great. Intimidation and violence are not.


Read the links on how Mother dogs discipline their young. The bite the neck, nose the belly area, or even force them to lie down. The proof was already given and you can only deny it. And Here we go again with the "abuse" word.... You people are that wired and think any form of physical handling is automatically abuse in your minds. get over the fact that physical discipline is not abuse. It's just the same as spanking a child for misbehaving. All your talks are invalid by the links i posted. You keep sticking to that invalid interpretation of abuse.

@rabblefox. I don't care what you've heard, because i've already provided 3 links. Here's another one. 
Muzzle: After growling or snarling, a mother dog may put her mouth over a pup's head or muzzle region. She may simultaneously keep him low to the ground by using one of her paws, as well. By keeping her puppy's body firmly restricted in this manner, she's encouraging him to take on a submissive posture.
http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/mother-dogs-punish-pups-2481.html

lmao at the whole "wrangling in pain" part and how "aggressive pits" end up getting scared to move. Like i said, if you sensitives think that is all "fear inducing method" that shuts down even pitbulls and rotts then he should teach that to cops because not even gun shots in the air or random hits from nightsticks manages to stop their attack modes. That is hilarious. You guys are now flinging around anything that you can guess.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Okay.. do you need to insult everyone to get your point across? It's getting old..


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> But ... Humans are not dogs, my dogs correct each other, they bite each other, growl, posture, stand over each other etc but I don't do that to them ... Why? There are a few reasons for this.
> Reason 1:snip.


So what about this? Just because you don't prefer to mimic the way a mother dog handles her young doesn't mean the method is wrong for humans to imitate. What the Mother dog example is the actual nature of dogs and behavior correction making all that "anti-touching" nonsense nothing but talks from high-sensitive people who can't handle discipline. 



> I remember the episode of DW with the dog "Luna" who was scared of everything, (the one who jumped Cesar's yard fence at his house) at one point her & another dog got into a squabble, it wasn't anything. Or it shouldn't have been, my dogs have disagreements like that before. The problem (or so I believe) is because CM doesn't or neve has let his dogs sort outdid own beefs, which IME actually makes the squabbles that do happen worse because it takes away the dogs ability to sort out their own problems.


Luna ended in a great success if you watched the end of that, she was able to go along with that man's orchestra. Great example of a tough case ending in a positive manner. With hard cases such as luna, it's sort of low to nit-pic the whole rehabilitation time because slip ups are expected through that time, it's the results that matter. 


> My dogs get along very well, better then his IMO because they are allowed to express themselves, have opinions & just ... Be dogs. I wish I had made a video of buddy when I first got him, even though he has ablongnway to go (& I still do too because I did doubt myself for a while there as others can remember) everyone here is allowed to be themselves.
> 
> Also for the record, JRT's & ACDs IME are far more "bad ass " then any bully or rott, all the bully's & rotts I have met are like ... Total marshmallows. The only reason they seen as much of a hand full is because hey don't weigh 90 x lbs.


That's great about your dogs.
Aggressive rotts, and pitts are known to still have high power in their aggression/attacks, come on man. You're counter argument to the whole "skating with 50+ issued Rotts/pits" is "oh well i have met allot of nice/cute rotts"? LOL The whole point of that 50+ dogs thing is that Millan is capable of having that many dogs of that breed and that aggressive issues all under control. People can make all of their dumb excuses like "shut-downs" which so illogical because these are known killer breeds with real aggressive issues. You can't just shut down dogs of that mentality with the whole "intimidation" slander. You can't even get a rott/pit to stop attacking throw gunshot noises or any hits with a stick, yet you guys actually think that these dogs are doing what they are doing because they were shut down? LMAO


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

cisco said:


> It's just the same as spanking a child for misbehaving. All your talks are invalid by the links i posted. You keep sticking to that invalid interpretation of abuse.


Which is another, scientifically proven, ineffective way of altering behavior, but it's far easier than actually parenting, which requires more thought than simply raising your hand to a child to intimidate them.

I guess not everyone is bright enough to use Positive methods with children or with dogs. It's sad.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

"Those links" are something simply put up by people like you. What makes them any more of an authority than anyone else? Are they licensed behaviorists? Are they even "dog scientists"? No, they just people who call themselves trainers. Their opinions are no proof of anything.

And, yeah, if you think raising children with pain, fear, and intimidation is OK, I guess I couldn't expect you to treat dogs any better.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> That one thing really bothers me. You dont see Victoria or Cesar either actually trialling with any dogs.


Agreed, I have trailed dogs before & if I had the money I would do it again. Does that make me a better trainer then both VS or CM? I don't know, I think there are a lot of "average" people (KBlover, cranastic, Paws K9, laurelin, & the notorious Wvasko come to mind) who have a lot of experience IMO more so then CM or VS 

I know folks who have been into horses specifically race horses who don't know what I know be she I have a jack when it comes to animals so I have been told, I have an I ate ability to think like an animal & understand why they do what they do or if I don't, I try to understand


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Sensitives? Lycanthropic much?

If being humane and aware/correctly responsive to elementary dog behavior makes me a...sensitive, I'm okay with that. I'm not sure what playing semantics and comparing apples to oranges when addressing dog behavior makes a person, but I doubt it's important after all.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

cisco said:


> lmao at the whole "wrangling in pain" part and how "aggressive pits" end up getting scared to move. Like i said, if you sensitives think that is all "fear inducing method" that shuts down even pitbulls and rotts then he should teach that to cops because not even gun shots in the air or random hits from nightsticks manages to stop their attack modes. That is hilarious. You guys are now flinging around anything that you can guess.


Okay, I couldn't help but comment on this... yes, my old foster (now adopted) was leash reactive. She attacked two dogs in my neighborhood, and we were her THIRD foster home because of dog reactivity. We used the choke chain on her, and it was basically like a toned down version of CM (the trainer we worked with). SHE SHUT DOWN. SHE WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH WALKS ANYMORE. We should show her the leash, and she would high tail it back to our bedrooms. SO YES, EVEN "AGGRESSIVE PITS" GET SO SCARED THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO MOVE.

You also seem to be forgetting that dog and human aggression are not the same things at all. Why the heck would you need to shoot at/hit a dog with a baton, if it were attacking another dog? Sounds like you're referring to a completely different situation.

That, and pit bulls are not nearly as tough as you make them sound lol. Yeah, they're stubborn, but most of them are relatively "soft" dogs. It's very EASY to control a pit bull with r+ training, just saying. A lot easier than trying to alpha roll a dog that knows how to hold its ground


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

taquitos said:


> By that reason, he should never get bit since he's a professional, but he does... multiple times lol. I can think of at least two episodes where he got bit doing what he does lol.


If he doesn't get bit during any part of the session (much more with the first meetings) then that can be speculated as staged. Millan is called in because of a dog who gets violent yet no biting or attempt of bites happen during the first encounters? Getting bit by a dog with issues that serious does not minus the cred because it's expected. It's the results that matter. Sadly, the whole "positive method" thing is effective for red zone case (as said by Victoria) was tried and failed with Benjy. 


> I also have no clue why you're taking it so personally?snip.


I'm not taking it personally but you guys started the insults first with the whole "when i was educated" and how little the knowledge of people who like CM's techs are. Cesar encourages his clients on using energy. He even states that whatever method works for them in his own show, but the energy has to be there. Did you even pay attention to the show?

It's effective because look at the results, again with that dangerous jindo, jonbee. You got proof of it right there. You guys are close minded because you think the disciplinary methods are abusive when they are not. The taps, etc are not harmful to dogs and none of cesar's methods involve intimidation, bullying... or the rest of the negative exaggerations being posted because you guys are too sensitive. 

My point is, that Cesars methods are great methods but they require allot of wisdom. I agree that it is dangerous if the person just goes in there because he thinks he knows what he is doing. Watch his personal interviews on that. However Cesar wins with the harder cases because in comparison to Vic's.. her show only had average cases and when it reached a similar aggression case of that showed in DW --Benjy. She was incompetent, the whole "positive method" she claimed will work on red zone dogs was shown to be wrong..


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So. . .if Cesar's methods aren't negative, they must be positive, right? So why are you dissing positive if that's what he does?  

There are dogs who have been put down after Cesar was through with them, either because they got worse or didn't get better (I believe Crantastic had a link to one or two, although with his lawyers over the owner's shoulders, they can't say anything; the info has to be discovered by a third party). He just isn't honest enough to actually put that on the show.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

taquitos said:


> Okay, I couldn't help but comment on this... yes, my old foster (now adopted) was leash reactive. She attacked two dogs in my neighborhood, and we were her THIRD foster home because of dog reactivity. We used the choke chain on her, and it was basically like a toned down version of CM (the trainer we worked with). SHE SHUT DOWN. SHE WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH WALKS ANYMORE. We should show her the leash, and she would high tail it back to our bedrooms. SO YES, EVEN "AGGRESSIVE PITS" GET SO SCARED THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO MOVE.
> 
> You also seem to be forgetting that dog and human aggression are not the same things at all. Why the heck would you need to shoot at/hit a dog with a baton, if it were attacking another dog? Sounds like you're referring to a completely different situation.


Yes i am referring to a different situations. You did take note of the whole "aggression" issues of the rotts and pitts in that 50+ skating thing, right? 



> That, and pit bulls are not nearly as tough as you make them sound lol. Yeah, they're stubborn, but most of them are relatively "soft" dogs. It's very EASY to control a pit bull with r+ training, just saying. A lot easier than trying to alpha roll a dog that knows how to hold its ground


We are on the subject of aggressive pitbulls -pitbulls with attacking issues not pitbulls in general. We all know that pitbulls who do attack are not soft at all. You sound as if you are lost on what is being talked about... I don't care if you think pitbulls can be soft when raised right nor did i talk in context of that. no offense bro but you've been going a bit out of accuracy with the subject in your replies .


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Aggressive dogs are frequently aggressive because of fear, not toughness. Very "soft".


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cisco said:


> If he doesn't get bit during any part of the session (much more with the first meetings) then that can be speculated as staged. Millan is called in because of a dog who gets violent yet no biting or attempt of bites happen during the first encounters? Getting bit by a dog with issues that serious does not minus the cred because it's expected. It's the results that matter. Sadly, the whole "positive method" thing is effective for red zone case (as said by Victoria) was tried and failed with Benjy.
> 
> 
> I'm not taking it personally but you guys started the insults first with the whole "when i was educated" and how little the knowledge of people who like CM's techs are. Cesar encourages his clients on using energy. He even states that whatever method works for them in his own show, but the energy has to be there. Did you even pay attention to the show?
> ...


The "Oscar" episode is actually on now as we speak, Izze would attack kids I this manner & it was just who she was, no amount of flooding with kids or kiddie dolls would change her ... She just didn't like kids. Some dogs don't. 

What is laughable is at one point CM uses rabbits in the dogs rehab, human type aggression & animal aggression are NOT the same thing but clearly in this episode he was implying that CM thought they were the same thing ... Or at least related


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> So. . .if Cesar's methods aren't negative, they must be positive, right?


yes they are 


> So why are you dissing positive if that's what he does?


what? lmao


> There are dogs who have been put down after Cesar was through with them, either because they got worse or didn't get better (I believe Crantastic had a link to one or two, although with his lawyers over the owner's shoulders, they can't say anything; the info has to be discovered by a third party). He just isn't honest enough to actually put that on the show.


 That was proven wrong by that link too, please re-read that. The rest in this quote block is all baseless assertion.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

This whole thread is laughable


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

So just curious. We have video or pictures of Cesar skating with 50 loose rotts? I tried googling and pulled up this thread. And pictures of him walking with 8-12 dogs at a time. Don't see no 50 rotts.

Anyways, even if he was, I think it's a stupid idea to have one person in charge of 50+ loose 'power' breeds. If something ever went wrong, there is absolutely nothing Cesar could do to stop it.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Aggressive dogs are frequently aggressive because of fear, not toughness. Very "soft".


Why are you talking about the reasons/triggers of dog aggression? This has nothing to do when pitbulls/rotts are already attacking. You are getting more irrelevant after every post.



dogdragoness said:


> The "Oscar" episode is actually on now as we speak, Izze would attack kids I this manner & it was just who she was, no amount of flooding with kids or kiddie dolls would change her ... She just didn't like kids. Some dogs don't.


That's why he was swapped and ended up as a working dog. Thanks for showing that example... it shows that cesar wil do what ever it takes to keep a dog alive positively. What did Victoria suggest with Benjy the Cocker Spaniel after all that "Positive method" stuff again? I think i see where you are going with this since your interpretation of the whole rabbit test was. You can't fault a man who wants to really give in effort to understand the dog more and to see if there is a way that he can remain in the family and be sparred from euthanasia. 


> What is laughable is at one point CM uses rabbits in the dogs rehab, human type aggression & animal aggression are NOT the same thing but clearly in this episode he was implying that CM thought they were the same thing ... Or at least related


The rabbits were used to see more layers with in the aggression, if it's triggered just by kids or also animals. A good behaviorist will always make sure of other windows and you thinking that is laughable is actually laughable about you.

i do predict you are going to make more reasons to nit pik on but meh. In the end, it shows Cesar's true dedication in helping a dog so whatever "he should have known this..." gig you are hoping to point out won't work.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Barbara Woodhouse!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

marsh muppet said:


> barbara woodhouse!


lol!..........


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think anybody knows who Barbara Woodhouse is anymore. . .


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have to confess that I had to google that name LOL, I am sorry.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> This whole thread is laughable


Isn't it? It's like trying to solve an algebra problem, but the person you're discussing it with is like, "Purple! Banana! ...45? I love cupcakes!" The commentary from one party is so baseless and irrelevant that it's impossible for a productive conversation to take place, because we don't have comparable knowledge or vocabularies.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

It's the type of thread where... we can all argue until we're blue in the face, present mountains of scientific evidence, facts upon FACTS, it's not going to make a difference in the one person's mind or belief. But kudos for trying...


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cisco said:


> The rabbits were used to see more layers with in the aggression, if it's triggered just by kids or also animals. A good behaviorist will always make sure of other windows and you thinking that is laughable is actually laughable about you.
> 
> i do predict you are going to make more reasons to nit pik on but meh. In the end, it shows Cesar's true dedication in helping a dog so whatever "he should have known this..." gig you are hoping to point out won't work.


why discover the 'layers' they arent the same thing? if they are, then Izze should have been aggressive to small animals as well but she was not ... she lived with a rabbit & a jack russell as well as had many small dog/animal friends. BUT boy did she ever hate kids.

For the record I dont like VS either because i find her to be rude & condecending to the owners, which isnt the way to get anyone to listen to you ... the reason so many people like CM is because he IS good with people. I dare you to watch one episode (esp one of the older ones) with no sound ... that is how i was enlightened to the fact that his ways often dont work.

You have the right to think how you like & train your dogs how you like, even though I dont agree with it, It is your right & I have to respect that. I was just trying to enlighten you to a different prospective ... there is a LOT of knowledge on this forum, I was hoping to persuade you to take advantage of it. But ... that is your choice.

Just dont come around trying to "Alpha" or "DW" my dogs, for you will be promptly 'scruffed' & told off, as would anyone else who tried to "DW" my crew. I like them the way they are! quirks & all ... its what makes them ... THEM.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

For some people, fundamentalism applies to more than just religion. It can apply to dog training, parenting techniques...almost anything. When a person is at that point, whatever system it is that they are a "believer" in, has little to do with logic, facts, or evidence...it is a matter of faith and any new information that is contrary to that perspective is an attack to which they must mount a full defense. At this point, they're functioning on the basis of emotion, not logic. The part of the brain that processes information in a logical manner is turned off and they are in a defensive mode.

Reasoning with them at that point is about as useful as shouting commands at a dog that is over threshold.

And yeah...I get that way about certain things, too. We all do.


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## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

I think this thread is interesting, although I doubt that cisco will be convinced that science beats CM. But it is an interesting thread if you look at the post count next to the posts. Generally the higher the post count, the more pro-positive, anti-CM the post. Not always, but I bet statistically correlated. 

Here is a counter example to my argument. Low post count and anti-CM - ME!

Monty


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I am that way about dogs in general, esp when someone utters the words; "dominance, alpha, or dog whisperer" LOL.

I wasnt trying to be rude to cisco ... I really wasnt, I was just trying to keep them from making the same mistakes with dogs that I did those mistakes robbed me of a good relationship with my dog, it was good, mind you but it could have been so much better if I nad only seen the light a long time ago.

I know I used to talk like cicso did back when I first joined here & for that I am sorry, I am sorry if I was a block head & I'm sorry if I ever offended anyone in the process of my enlightenment


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> I know I used to talk like cicso did back when I first joined here & for that I am sorry, I am sorry if I was a block head & I'm sorry if I ever offended anyone in the process of my enlightenment



I think most of us who have had dogs for a while have had to go through that process. Looking back at all those dogs I was so afraid would walk all over me makes me a little sad. Missed opportunities, man. 

Probably why a lot of us (like you) get so growly when someone is SO DETERMINED. We can't go back, and watching someone else do the things we wish we could have a do-over with... frustrating as heck.


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## kjarva (Apr 22, 2013)

I've only ever seen Cesar Milan's 'dog whisperer', I don't know who Victoria Stillwell is! I'm not a huge fan of Cesar's methods, I'd rather use positive reinforcement than the whole dominance thing. I'm sure I read that the dominance thing for dogs was a lot of rubbish anyway. Just my 2c


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Not only is it rubbish, its not fun for anyone ... I mean who wants to live with the notion that at any moment your dog is going to try to one up you? That to me isnt fun dog ownership ... owning a dog (IMO) should be FUN.

CM's method doesnt seem very fun to me & it doesnt seem like his dogs are having much fun either


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I don't think anybody knows who Barbara Woodhouse is anymore. . .


I do! I have one of her books! I found it in my parents' house collecting dust and grabbed it. Haven't gotten around to reading much of it yet.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> Not only is it rubbish, its not fun for anyone ... I mean who wants to live with the notion that at any moment your dog is going to try to one up you? That to me isnt fun dog ownership ... owning a dog (IMO) should be FUN.
> 
> CM's method doesnt seem very fun to me & it doesnt seem like his dogs are having much fun either


Yeah, that was kind of the key for me. Jack and Kylie being so close together and looking at both how much faster Kylie learns AND how much more fun she has with it - really, really eye-opening. Bug and Thud too, actually, but Jack and Kylie are the most stark contrast. Kylie? She's playing a game. Thud's playing a game. Bug, who never had ANY training of ANY sort, is playing a game. They're all learning at different speeds and have various degrees of motivation and whatever, but they're PLAYING A GAME and learning well as a result. 

Jack's better than he was and continuing to get better, show more enthusiasm and gain confidence, but... it's not a game for him. 

That's sad.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I think most of us who have had dogs for a while have had to go through that process. Looking back at all those dogs I was so afraid would walk all over me makes me a little sad. Missed opportunities, man.
> 
> Probably why a lot of us (like you) get so growly when someone is SO DETERMINED. We can't go back, and watching someone else do the things we wish we could have a do-over with... frustrating as heck.


And...if we follow the whole comparison to religious debate, there is no one as zealous as a convert, which many of us are. I drank the CM koolaid once and now I regret it. It stands to reason that those of us who once followed those methods and learned to regret it would be the most passionate about opposing them and very strong advocates of the methods we now use.

With my dog, Tinker, when I was drinking the CM koolaid, I was stressed out a lot. I was always worried that each action on her part was an attempt to usurp my authority and I felt like I had to rule with an iron fist and be someone that I didn't like being. I couldn't just relax and enjoy my dog because it would ruin her. I had to always assert my authority and make her acknowledge my position as "pack leader." It was a lot of work.

Sam already is a handful, but it doesn't feel like "work." If he does something I don't like, it's just something for us to work on, not a challenge to me personally as his owner or the end of the world. His actions aren't a sign that he disrespects me or hates me or that I'm not "dominant enough." They're a sign he needs more training and we can work on that together. Instead of feeling like I'm always in opposition to my dog, in a constant power struggle, now I feel like I'm on a team with my dog and it's my job to coach him to victory.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

cisco said:


> She was incompetent, the whole "positive method" she claimed will work on red zone dogs was shown to be wrong..


That's some flawed logic.

If someone uses a method and is incompetent at it, that proves the method doesn't work? It proves whoever it was that was using it is incompetent. 

By your logic, if someone over-waters a plant, that proves watering plants is a flawed method of keeping them alive.

In reality, it's depends on the plant. Same for dog training. Pulling "the Cesar method" on Wally would be at best a waste of time and at worst do even more damage to him, especially considering his fearful nature. He didn't need to be "shown who's boss" he needed to be shown the world is not death lurking around every corner. I don't think poking and jabbing him would work - not that I use "VS methods" either. 

Trying to free shape a dog that's baring his teeth at your and snapping at you wouldn't do much good either. Dog ain't interested in that...or you. That doesn't prove free shaping is flawed at teaching dogs behavior.

I don't particularly like either one, really. VS seems like she'd want me to treat Wally like he's a damn fool that needs to be told every single thing to do and doesn't exploit context sensitivity (i.e. slow to generalize) and sees it as a "flaw" instead of a resource to tap, and CM would want me to think he's out to usurp everything he his paws can reach - any time he doesn't do what's expected means he's being "dominant". I find neither scenario to be true.


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## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

Video of Barbara Woodhouse and William Shatner when he still looked like Captain Kirk. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGjHf5-vQ6k

She is a old-school trainer. Seems like a nice lady, just with no idea at all about calming signals. Same with Cesar, at least Vicky (as my trainer calls her) can see a calming signal. I think THAT is the real differential in all of this. You either see the calming signals or you don't. Once you see them, you can't do the CM like thing. Heck I have trouble now petting Lucy and trying to do it in a way where she doesn't lick her lips. She is so on edge. 

Once you see and understand calming signals, the rest follows. Especially if you equate a calming signal to meaning something the dog finds uncomfortable. I wonder if that is cisco's problem, or rather if that is why the CM promoters can still see him in a good light (they don't see the calming signals). 

Monty


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

perhaps, when I read up on calming signals it was like a whole new world of dogs was opened to me. it was like i had an whole new perspective on their world & what they are trying to tell us


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cisco said:


> Positive training works. Regardless of me talking so much about Cesar, i do recommend Positive training over CM's because those methods are much easier to do and have little penalties if you mess up. It's just for average things and what people get wrong is that it's not the only "positive method".
> 
> The example is Victoria in her Me or the Dog show. That show is an example of this"positive method" because all her cases were average cases/minor behavioural issues that have resulted on the part of the owner, yet when she actually runs into a case that is common Cesar case (with Breeds like Pitbulls with attacking cases)... well: "the dog (Cockerspaniel) my need be put to sleep"... Cesar's methods are best for dogs with real deep issues, serious phobias, aggression, These dogs require different handling methods, which is his method but that method needs to be consulted by a professional first (as said in the show).
> 
> note: Re-read the post Crantastic about Jonbee the Jindo. Cesar's methods with a Jindo who just attacked... that recall the whole "Positive method with a COCKERSPANIEL facing food aggression".


Sorry, I had to go to bed to get up to go to work, where I work with dogs with serious issues.. with positive methods. Weird. 

Really, after the way this entire thread has gone I am not sure what makes me feel compelled to reply but here we are. I literally have no advice for you other than good god shut off your television and go learn something. Watching TV shows about dog training is like watching reruns of ER to gain medical knowledge. There are trainers using aversive methods that are a hell of a lot more educated than CM. 

I haven't the slightest idea why you keep putting Cocker Spaniel spelled incorrectly in all caps, but I hope it's doing something for you. You keep putting a lot of emphasis on COCKER SPANIELS, PIT BULLS (also two words), and ROTTWEILERS like the breed makes any difference when it comes down to specific problems. A resource guarder is a resource guarder. It may feel badass to talk about PITS AND ROTTS but it isn't.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Most people who think Rottweilers are big tough dogs that require rough handling...have never owned a rottie. Every one I've met that was raised in a loving home is a big ball of gooey lovebug. It's likely pitbulls and bully breeds get into so much trouble because they have such an overwhelming desire to please their people...even if those people are mistreating them and training them to dog fight.

Just because a dog may look big and tough does not mean it doesn't have a tender heart, or isn't easily scared.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Sorry, I had to go to bed to get up to go to work, where I work with dogs with serious issues.. with positive methods. Weird.


LOL right? Same here. I have a house call for a fear aggressive dog tonight at 7. CRAZY.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Emily1188 said:


> LOL right? Same here. I have a house call for a fear aggressive dog tonight at 7. CRAZY.


That's just nuts. I worked with two resource guarders (A SHEPHERD mix and a PIT BULL) but.. but I used rewards!


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> That's just nuts. I worked with two resource guarders (A SHEPHERD mix and a PIT BULL) but.. but I used rewards!


Did you try poking their necks and saying "TTSSSSSTTTT!"? It worked really well for this guy on TV!

Well, until the dog bit the ever-loving sh*t out of his hand...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Emily1188 said:


> Did you try poking their necks and saying "TTSSSSSTTTT!"? It worked really well for this guy on TV!
> 
> Well, until the dog bit the ever-loving sh*t out of his hand...


Oh if only it wasn't on my own facebook. I have a video of using the TTSSSSSSTTTT on Shambles. One can only guess the hilarity that ensued.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes I supposed it may be a waste of my thumb power (I am on the iPhone right now) to say this ... But Cisco you know that 90% of dog aggression is rooted in fear.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> like the breed makes any difference when it comes down to specific problems. A resource guarder is a resource guarder. It may feel badass to talk about PITS AND ROTTS but it isn't.


Yes indeed, it does limit one's experience when dealing with just one or two breeds. I'm behind in the dog bite program, have been bit a number of times but never by a Rott or Pitt.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Yes indeed, it does limit one's experience when dealing with just one or two breeds. I'm behind in the dog bite program, have been bit a number of times but never by a Rott or Pitt.


My bite list is nothing spectacular by those standards either. Chalk my worst mauling up to, you know, Jonas.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> My bite list is nothing spectacular by those standards either. Chalk my worst mauling up to, you know, Jonas.


LOL...Dachshunds.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, lots of posts while I was gone! (Casper and I went walking with a friend and her adorable Portuguese Water Dog. Casper and Hobbes even played in the friend's yard for a while, which is big because Cas doesn't usually like dogs that are bigger than him.)



Laurelin said:


> So just curious. We have video or pictures of Cesar skating with 50 loose rotts? I tried googling and pulled up this thread. And pictures of him walking with 8-12 dogs at a time. Don't see no 50 rotts.
> 
> Anyways, even if he was, I think it's a stupid idea to have one person in charge of 50+ loose 'power' breeds. If something ever went wrong, there is absolutely nothing Cesar could do to stop it.


I was actually thinking about this while I was out! I realized we were just taking cisco's word for that. I have seen lots of shots of Cesar's compound (where he has a staff helping him look after a large pack of dogs), but I can't see I've actually seen him out and about with 50+ pits and rotties. cisco, I would love to see a link to a video or even photos, please!



Emily1188 said:


> Isn't it? It's like trying to solve an algebra problem, but the person you're discussing it with is like, "Purple! Banana! ...45? I love cupcakes!" The commentary from one party is so baseless and irrelevant that it's impossible for a productive conversation to take place, because we don't have comparable knowledge or vocabularies.





SydTheSpaniel said:


> It's the type of thread where... we can all argue until we're blue in the face, present mountains of scientific evidence, facts upon FACTS, it's not going to make a difference in the one person's mind or belief. But kudos for trying...


I participate in threads like this for two reasons. One, I like arguing. I admit it. If I didn't find this fun, I wouldn't do it.  And two -- and more importantly: I know that DF gets thousands of lurkers in a day. Even if I never change the mind of whoever I'm debating with, I don't care... because if even one other person reads this thread and decides to do some research into positive methods and into how dominance theory has been debunked, I consider that a win.



packetsmom said:


> And...if we follow the whole comparison to religious debate, there is no one as zealous as a convert, which many of us are. I drank the CM koolaid once and now I regret it. It stands to reason that those of us who once followed those methods and learned to regret it would be the most passionate about opposing them and very strong advocates of the methods we now use.


I think that this is very true. I grew up reading books that advised using the Koehler method. I also used to actually like the Dog Whisperer TV show. I'm lucky that my last dog (malamute/collie) was a really biddable guy and a quick learner, because I didn't feel like I had to use those methods on him very often -- but I did use them sometimes. I still regret that. Once I got Crystal, who was nine pounds as opposed to 90, I didn't want to use any harsh methods because I was afraid I'd hurt her. By that time I was also older and had the Internet and was starting to read more and more about dog training methods. I use mostly positive methods on Crystal and Casper (I will still do the occasional mild leash correction), and it works so well that I wish I'd always known how to train dogs this way.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Maybe we should say it DACHSHUNDS :3


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> I participate in threads like this for two reasons. One, I like arguing. I admit it. If I didn't find this fun, I wouldn't do it.  And two -- and more importantly: I know that DF gets thousands of lurkers in a day. Even if I never change the mind of whoever I'm debating with, I don't care... because if even one other person reads this thread and decides to do some research into positive methods and into how dominance theory has been debunked, I consider that a win.


More power to you, seriously. We need people who can calmly face threads like this and put good information up for lurkers and other members to read. I just can't handle it, I'm too reactive.  LOL


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Emily1188 said:


> LOL...Dachshunds.


Amen. If CM starts running around with 50 aggressive Dachshunds someone should let me know because then I might be impressed.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree ... I like a good, good natured "nudge in the ribs" debate on things like this.

I may have been passionate in my discussions but I never did it with vindictiveness in mind. If I can't get through to this person ... Maybe someone else reading this might be enlightened.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> why discover the 'layers' they arent the same thing? if they are, then Izze should have been aggressive to small animals as well but she was not ... she lived with a rabbit & a jack russell as well as had many small dog/animal friends. BUT boy did she ever hate kids.


lol. There was nothing wrong with the rabbit test, the rabbit test wasn't just to see if there where other areas of his aggression. It was to give insight on it, it was that rabbit test that convinced Cesar that a swap was the only solution. No offense bro, but that nit pik was kinda dumb.



> For the record I dont like VS either because i find her to be rude & condecending to the owners, which isnt the way to get anyone to listen to you ... the reason so many people like CM is because he IS good with people. I dare you to watch one episode (esp one of the older ones) with no sound ... that is how i was enlightened to the fact that his ways often dont work.


No. The reason why CM is liked especially towards the Hispanic and Asian communities is because of his philosophy. I have watched episodes -including the jonbee- with out sound. I have no idea why muting the episode will show you it won't work because the results still happen way. The only reason why muting will show you his methods don't work is because you don't hear the dialogue/explanation/reason of the specific method being done which is why it wouldn't work because of the person being ignorant of the other details that were explained on the show. :doh:

I think it's common sense w/ things like that, that you would need verbal explanation than just visible demonstration, especially with CM's techniques. :laugh:


> You have the right to think how you like & train your dogs how you like, even though I dont agree with it, It is your right & I have to respect that. I was just trying to enlighten you to a different prospective ... there is a LOT of knowledge on this forum, I was hoping to persuade you to take advantage of it. But ... that is your choice.
> 
> Just dont come around trying to "Alpha" or "DW" my dogs, for you will be promptly 'scruffed' & told off, as would anyone else who tried to "DW" my crew. I like them the way they are! quirks & all ... its what makes them ... THEM.


Sure. I respect all forms of Dog training and have stated it in the beginning to go for the simpler one. I'm just stating the facts on certain areas and people need to realize that CM style is not wrong. The whole abuse, flooding, intimidation... are poor judgements.


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I think that this is very true. I grew up reading books that advised using the Koehler method.


I wonder if CM is a disciple of William Koehler. Has he said so?

Sherman, set the "Way-Back" to 1978. 

The first training book I ever owned, I'm ashamed to admit, was "The Koehler Method of Dog Training". If I ever make it to Rainbow Bridge I'll have a lot of 'splainin' to do to some wonderful dogs who put up with a lot of crap from me as I attempted to apply techniques from that "classic".

The reason I'm on this forum now is because we just adopted ("rehomed" through Craigslist, actually) a somewhat timid, supposed Bullmastiff girl whose second owner was placing her due to a of divorce and relocation out of Alaska. (This hugely muscled young man--let's call him "Pat"--was all teary eyed over giving Sammy up--I was impressed with his efforts to screen potential adopters)

Anyway, Pat described the original owner, who was his neighbor, as abusive to Sammy. He even said that he "beat" her. Anyone spending five minutes with this sweet girl would know that physical correction is totally unnecessary with her. I'm no expert, but when we met, she still seemed somewhat "shut down" and fearful.

Although he made a lot of progress with Sammy, Pat advised us that she might not be a good match for us if we want a dog we can take everywhere we go. With all due respect to Pat, in the week and a half she's been with us, Sammy has been to the pet store, the vet's office, playing off-lead with friends' greyhound and OCD Border Collie, and most recently, on a weekend getaway to the Homer spit, where she got to chase some waves on the beach with the same pair of dogs. With each new experience she seems to come out of her shell a bit more, and we are thrilled to have her. 

Any and all progress we've made hs been through the use of positive methods--if you don't count the occasional "AH-AH!", "NO!", or "Get outta there!' to distract her when she was about to do something undesirable like rolling in moose poop. ;^)

Anyway, to get back on topic, I will agree with CM's techniques and philosophy only so far as using calm "energy" as the best way to approach most dogs. Clearly, CM did not invent this concept, but he has made a lot of money putting his brand on it via his TV show.

As for VS, I'll agree with others that she is somewhat less unimpressive than CM, but not so much that I would become a regular viewer.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

For the guys who want me to provide a photo or something of the 50+ walk thing, please watch when his episodes reaches the rehab. I admit the 50 thing could be a miscount or exaggeration. I think the most he's skated with at a time was 20 Pitbulls (Emily episode) and there where other episodes of a mixture of Pit's and Rotts. I know a few who actually seem still rollerblading with more than 10 dogs. 

I find it funny that the responses towards this was about how Rotts/Pitts can be sweet when raised right or something. lol


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Kevin T said:


> I wonder if CM is a disciple of William Koehler. Has he said so?
> 
> Sherman, set the "Way-Back" to 1978.
> 
> ...


Me too 

@ Cisco, I don't know if you can tell from my name ... But I am a GIRL, therefore "bro" is irrelevant. Just sayin'

Also the fact that you don't understand why watching without the sound is enlightening says a lot IMHO


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> Me too
> 
> @ Cisco, I don't know if you can tell from my name ... But I am a GIRL, therefore "bro" is irrelevant. Just sayin'
> 
> Also the fact that you don't understand why watching without the sound is enlightening says a lot IMHO


Ok girl. The whole "no sound" suggestion is dumb because if it is in mute you will miss explanations on why certain methods are being done and the reason for it.. please


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yes. . .you can just see him being a jerk without hearing his justifications .


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

^^LAWL! Win!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

cisco said:


> For the guys who want me to provide a photo or something of the 50+ walk thing, please watch when his episodes reaches the rehab. I admit the 50 thing could be a miscount or exaggeration. I think the most he's skated with at a time was 20 Pitbulls (Emily episode) and there where other episodes of a mixture of Pit's and Rotts. I know a few who actually seem still rollerblading with more than 10 dogs.
> 
> I find it funny that the responses towards this was about how Rotts/Pitts can be sweet when raised right or something. lol


Them thar be fightin' words. Pit bulls and Rotts can be sweet when raised properly. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be true?


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Yes. . .you can just see him being a jerk without hearing his justifications .


The mute thing is one of the dumbest things brought up.. That's like saying "take away a piece of reality you will see it's wrong". This is making a theoretical suggestion. But then again, you people still refuse to let go of the fact the touches are not as physically strong so this is a bad argument for any of you. When i mute the show, i don't see a jerk i see a disciplinarian working all the way to assure a positive result. The results already eliminate the "jerk" thing anyway, if the results are positive then the person wasn't a jerk. 

What's wrong with all of you? You guys are so focused on a spot instead of the entire thing as in the main root to the final success? Where is the common sense of the "problem - the trial - the outcome"? The truth is, you people are saying i should ignore the entire picture with this mute thing and how it makes the "trial" part *look* like bullying. And Xeph thinks thats a win? haha


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> What's wrong with all of you? You guys are so focused on a spot instead of the entire thing


And you're not focused on the "COCKERSPANIEL"? You keep bringing that up to prove some kind of point about... I don't even know what, exactly. Can you give me any other examples of Stilwell doing something wrong on her show? Have you even watched it? It feels like you're just parroting someone else, but it's kind of like a game of telephone... you're jumbling the message. Your posts don't make much sense.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Them thar be fightin' words. Pit bulls and Rotts can be sweet when raised properly. I'm not sure why this wouldn't be true?


Since when did i argue that Pit's and Rotts can't be raised properly? :laugh: That's not the point nor is that anywhere near the topic on the whole walk thing. 

The topic was: Cesar Millan is able to walk that a high number of dogs (breeds being Rotts and Pits) in where some of them are facing AGGRESSION/attacking issues.

And i've been getting "pits and rotts can be sweet when raised right"? :suspicious: I've been getting that in the last 3 pages.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> The topic was: Cesar Millan is able to walk that a high number of dogs (breeds being Rotts and Pits) in where some of them are facing AGGRESSION/attacking issues.


Human or dog aggression? There's a difference. 10 human-aggressive dogs could walk together and potentially have no issues at all.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Google "Dudebro." Then all this makes much more sense.

The CM and Monks of New Skete style dominance theory methods do seem to appeal more to those for whom appearing macho is a major concern. These are the same sorts of people who prefer certain breeds over others because they feel they enhance their masculinity. They need to feel they are "dominating" their dogs rather than cooperating with their dogs because anything resembling "nuturing" is too feminine and therefore "soft" and feminizing.

Those of us who use positive reinforcement are labeled as "soft" or "sensitive," but in reality, we simply are secure enough in who we are that we can use whatever training methods are proven to work best rather than having our egoes tied up in our dogs...and our dominion over them.

This same type has to wear the "tap out" shirts and drive a bigger truck than the next guy or a sportscar. The dog is just another way for him to project his masculinity, out of insecurity.

Bro...


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> And you're not focused on the "COCKERSPANIEL"? You keep bringing that up to prove some kind of point about... I don't even know what, exactly. Can you give me any other examples of Stilwell doing something wrong on her show? Have you even watched it? It feels like you're just parroting someone else, but it's kind of like a game of telephone... you're jumbling the message. Your posts don't make much sense.


Why not repeat the Cocker spaniel? It's the perfect example of that positive method running into a case that was handled and resolved numerous times by Cesar. There are no mistakes in Stillwell's show because all the cases were average cases it's that Cocker spaniel episode which is the only episode with a real serious case. 
My posts make allot of sense but all of you just don't want to accept it. Just look at how all of you went :lalala: with the mother dog part regardless of 4 dog psychology links being shown; how out of context the rest have been with the whole Dog skating/running part; then the latest argument of muting the tv which is in short saying "forget the entire picture".

You already self owned yourself during the first try with the first set of links you put out. Again with the Jonbee. You were going off as to how it was unsuccessful because of Jonbee being transferred and only becoming safe through another trainer. Little do you know that the place he was transferred in is a place founded by one of CM's students, and there was nothing that showed Jonbee return to aggression after cesar left. The comparison is a randomly found aggressive Jindu vs a food aggressive cocker spaniel house pet. The difference and level of the "problem-trial-outcome" is staggering there. 

The other link was with an owner who was talking about how great and impressive cesar was but he (the owner) just didn't have the ability to do it on his own w/o cesar. 

Then the other link of a dog rumored to be put down due to a return aggression. There was nothing in the link proving that -- but a 3rd party said so as said here. Lastly the never ending false slander of cesar's touches being jabs, chokes, hanging, blah blah..

are you sure you want lurkers to run in this thread? I'm already getting lazy now with this.



Crantastic said:


> Human or dog aggression? There's a difference. 10 human-aggressive dogs could walk together and potentially have no issues at all.


Mostly dog agression. The skate was to help the dog adjust to working and walking along side a number of dogs to take away the fear aggression.... however, there have been episodes with dogs who had human aggression. 

Now the whole "dominance" thing is a masculine issue. *sigh I'm being thrown random assertions that's being guessed out. CM's method isn't as new anyway, it's an eastern method and done mostly by asians and hispanics for a long time. That's why some places like mexico and the philippines don't have leash rules because of that knowledge.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Human or dog aggression? There's a difference. 10 human-aggressive dogs could walk together and potentially have no issues at all.


^^^ This.

Also note that I already pointed this out earlier.

Anyway it's too far gone to respond to waht you wrote, but you've basically ignored 50% of my replies, cisco, so I am guessing you don't have a proper rebuttal.

And I don't know about others, but I was contributing to the general discussion, like I mentioned in my second post? Not directed at you personally, just sharing my experiences. Before I had a clue about what I was doing, I thought what CM was doing was normal, made sense, etc. and I am ashamed to admit it. I just don't see why you're so adamant about backing him up. I personally don't agree with pretty much anything he does, and I don't find him a very nice person in general (extremely misogynistic comments here and there in his show). I do like that he is a pit bull advocate though, and that he says people should stay calm. That's all I like, though.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Crying out loud, is the only prerequisite for training is "Do they have a TV show?"


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

taq. i have not ignored any of your replies. Please don't give that "you haven't replied to # of my replies so you have no rebuttal". I have refuted allot of what you gave. read my latest reply to Crantastic on the sum up of the arguments because some of that contains your arguments. I back CM up because it's not a wrong method. There is nothing wrong about using touches instead of food to correct your dog because the touches are not harmful. Look at mexico, the philippines, japan and how good their dogs are in majority, the popular method in those countries is that eastern method. 

@thosewordsatbest, do you see the topic title? So in short we are comparing TV shows additionally. The TV shows reflect Millan's success.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> My posts make allot of sense but all of you just don't want to accept it. Just look at how all of you went :lalala: with the mother dog part regardless of 4 dog psychology links being shown


Haha, "dog psychology links." What were those people's credentials, again?



> are you sure you want lurkers to run in this thread? I'm already getting lazy now with this.


I couldn't tell. Your posts make about as much sense now as they did at the beginning. 

I'd respond to the rest of your post, but I think all of the links I have posted speak for themselves, so there's no need for me to restate everything yet again. I'm not trying to convince _you_ of anything, after all (you've shown time and time again that you have no problem twisting evidence of our points to suit your own warped view), so it's all there if the lurkers want to look at it and make up their own minds.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Cisco, I respect your opinion, but I have to say, if your posts made a lot of sense as you say, you'd at least have a couple of us acknowledging it. 

Someone is missing the point. Either it's you or EVERYONE else.

My simple take on this whole ordeal is that positive training can do everything that CM's techniques can do, but better, without the risk to the owner and stress to the dog. And positive training involves real, scientifically supported understanding of animal behavior as opposed to CM's invented silliness.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Crying out loud, is the only prerequisite for training is "Do they have a TV show?"


They also need to run or rollerblade with 50+* "aggressive" pits and rotties. Don't forget that. That is super important.





*50+ may be an exaggeration. May be closer to 10.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> They also need to run or rollerblade with 50+* "aggressive" pits and rotties. Don't forget that. That is super important.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Type of aggression also unknown!


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Haha, "dog psychology links." What were those people's credentials, again?


Dog specialists. I get it, the only rebuttal you can give is the "meh those people have no credentials". Fail Sorry, but that mother dog discipline part was already proven and it is common knowledge. 


> I couldn't tell. Your posts make about as much sense now as they did at the beginning.
> 
> I'd respond to the rest of your post, but I think all of the links I have posted speak for themselves, so there's no need for me to restate everything yet again. I'm not trying to convince _you_ of anything, after all (you've shown time and time again that you have no problem twisting evidence of our points to suit your own warped view), so it's all there if the lurkers want to look at it and make up their own minds.


Bro. Those links did self-own you, there was no twisting at all. I provided you a link about the adoption center Jonbee was transferred to.  I don't think it would be great for lurkers now. The whole mother dog just showed the ignorance of the people here and how closed your own minds are because of even rejecting the links that were all shown for that.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

cisco said:


> taq. i have not ignored any of your replies. Please don't give that "you haven't replied to # of my replies so you have no rebuttal". I have refuted allot of what you gave. read my latest reply to Crantastic on the sum up of the arguments because some of that contains your arguments. I back CM up because it's not a wrong method. There is nothing wrong about using touches instead of food to correct your dog because the touches are not harmful. Look at mexico, the philippines, japan and how good their dogs are in majority, the popular method in those countries is that eastern method.


Ummm people don't use dominance in Japan lol. Neither do they in other East Asian countries (i.e. China, Korea). Trust me. I'm Korean, and I lived in China for almost a decade lol. No one believes in the CM stuff. Most trainers are more the VS style (minus attitude towards their clients lol).

And you didn't contribute anything at all to what I have written. Your "rebuttals" weren't rebuttals. They were just cheap jabs with nothing constructive. From MY experience with bully breeds (I foster rescues), positive reinforcement works MUCH better than the CM style stuff. I get dogs that were basically f*cked up by their owners who USED such methods on them. I gave you a concrete example of my last foster who started to shut down, and became fearful due to CM-esque methods. All you wrote was that you found it strange how a dog shuts down with such methods when the breed is notorious for its stubbornness referring to police officers shooting them to subdue them??? How is that an appropriate response, I wonder? Completely different situations, and different issues lol.

They're not rebuttals if you haven't deconstructed the other's argument, and especially if you can't provide more depth into your argument.

ETA:
You also can't generalize how well behaved a nation's worth of dogs are lol. No, the majority are not better behaved than in North America. Where on earth would you get such an idea? Do you have statistics to prove this?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cisco said:


> The mute thing is one of the dumbest things brought up.. That's like saying "take away a piece of reality you will see it's wrong". This is making a theoretical suggestion. But then again, you people still refuse to let go of the fact the touches are not as physically strong so this is a bad argument for any of you. When i mute the show, i don't see a jerk i see a disciplinarian working all the way to assure a positive result. The results already eliminate the "jerk" thing anyway, if the results are positive then the person wasn't a jerk.
> 
> What's wrong with all of you? You guys are so focused on a spot instead of the entire thing as in the main root to the final success? Where is the common sense of the "problem - the trial - the outcome"? The truth is, you people are saying i should ignore the entire picture with this mute thing and how it makes the "trial" part *look* like bullying. And Xeph thinks thats a win? haha


If you don't know what watching DW with the sound off can teach you then you have a lot to learn. Because this explications muddle the whole thing up.

I wish I could post links on why watching with the sound off is beneficial & educational but I'm on my phone & it's too hard ... Maybe someone will.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

taquitos said:


> Ummm people don't use dominance in Japan lol. Neither do they in other East Asian countries (i.e. China, Korea). Trust me. I'm Korean, and I lived in China for almost a decade lol. No one believes in the CM stuff. Most trainers are more the VS style (minus attitude towards their clients lol).
> 
> And you didn't contribute anything at all to what I have written. Your "rebuttals" weren't rebuttals. They were just cheap jabs with nothing constructive. From MY experience with bully breeds (I foster rescues), positive reinforcement works MUCH better than the CM style stuff. I get dogs that were basically f*cked up by their owners who USED such methods on them. I gave you a concrete example of my last foster who started to shut down, and became fearful due to CM-esque methods. All you wrote was that you found it strange how a dog shuts down with such methods when the breed is notorious for its stubbornness referring to police officers shooting them to subdue them??? How is that an appropriate response, I wonder? Completely different situations, and different issues lol.
> 
> They're not rebuttals if you haven't deconstructed the other's argument, and especially if you can't provide more depth into your argument.


You do know that posting a "life story" is a useless argument in forums? I can make a story about me going to an aggressive power breed and using victoria's positive method and it came out with the owners putting the dog down. You see what i did there?

Asian countries and some Hispanic areas (mexico) do the eastern method. We have the philosophy of energy in our way of handling dogs. The way you describe dominance is like a forceful method, that's why your posts are generally inaccurate. I currently live now in the Philippines so i see a various amount of dogs, some even owned by the many homeless around here. Cesar's methods are not something that was known when he became famous. 

My reply to crantastic contained the jist of the entire arguments presented since this began you can make any diminishing remarks about my reply as much as you want but the truth is you guys are the ones who are ignorant of the eastern method. How many times did i have to correct the whole errors involving the physical touches given here?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Dog specialists. I get it, the only rebuttal you can give is the "meh those people have no credentials". Fail Sorry, but that mother dog discipline part was already proven and it is common knowledge.


"Dog specialists"? Come on, you can do better than that. And "common knowledge" doesn't fly as proof around here. If something is common knowledge, you should have no problem finding real experts proving it. Try again. 



> Bro. Those links did self-own you, there was no twisting at all. I provided you a link about the adoption center Jonbee was transferred to.  I don't think it would be great for lurkers now. The whole mother dog just showed the ignorance of the people here and how closed your own minds are because of even rejecting the links that were all shown for that.


Actually, I knew that the rescue was run by a Cesar disciple... that fact was in my post on page 7 (post 128), in one of the quotes. I don't see why that matters, though? The point was that the dog did not get better after Cesar dealt with him on the show. I consider that a failure.

Ruby bit a child after Cesar "rehabilitated" her.

The woman in the LA Times article (which was tongue-in-cheek, btw; it's amusing to me that you're quoting her hyperbole as serious praise) had to have her dog's teeth filed down so that it couldn't hurt people when it bit them, after Cesar attempted to "rehabilitate" it.

This woman's dog got worse after Cesar taught her how to train him (and she kept up with Cesar's techniques), and got even worse when she left it at the "psychology center" while on vacation. He was injured, wearing an e-collar, and after that he developed an anxiety disorder. 

And _Cesar's own producer_ admits a 20% failure rate.

All of that, and you're still claiming that Cesar never makes mistakes? He's a human being -- of course he makes mistakes. 

I'm not saying that I think Victoria Stilwell is amazing, either. She's a TV personality first and foremost, too. But I prefer her because if people use her techniques (and people are _going_ to use the techniques they see on TV, disclaimers be damned), at least they are unlikely to make the situation worse. And unlike you, I have actually watched Victoria's show. That cocker spaniel is far from the only biter she's dealt with. I remember one episode in particular about a horrid chinese crested who bit guests, her owner's roommate/sister, and lunged and snapped at strangers on the street. Victoria taught those girls how train that dog, and it improved immensely. Positive techniques work for aggressive dogs, "bro." That's why dog behaviorists -- people with real credentials -- can help hundreds of them a year.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Googled "dudebro" (slightly amused that my iPhone's autocorrect recognized it) this is what I got: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dudebro


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Since when is Mexico part of the "east?" If you're going to claim CM's methods are derived from some sort of cross-pollination of dog training methods from "Asian countries" to the Phillipines, then Mexico, please provide specific sources for that and explain exactly how that progression of cross-cultural techniques came about. I don't think even CM is trying to claim his methods evolved from some kind of Shao-Lin style monk dog training.

Bro..."self-owned?" I would assume most human beings capable of accessing the Internet ARE self-owned. Slavery does still sadly exist in this world, but most slave owners stubbornly refuse those they own leisure time on Internet forums.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> Googled "dudebro" (slightly amused that my iPhone's autocorrect recognized it) this is what I got: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dudebro


Just had to look...yup sounds like a few people I've met/dealt with recently (both on and off various internet forums)


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> Googled "dudebro" (slightly amused that my iPhone's autocorrect recognized it) this is what I got: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dudebro


Doesn't this thread make a lot more sense now?


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> Slavery does still sadly exist in this world, but *most slave owners stubbornly refuse those they own leisure time on Internet forums.*


I LOL'd, and I'm still giggling over this. Teehee.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Lol I just come to this for a laugh now.

Honestly ... If I do watch CM it's for ... Eye candy cuz I kinda think he's cute LMBO. But free a few minutes his down talking to & about women starts to ticks me off so that's when I either turn the sound off or change it.

One episode sticks with me ... Anyone see the one wih "buddy" that horribly fear aggressive brindle bully mix? What if you had a dog like that ... What would you do? I son know what I would do ... He was fine with the family but fear aggressive to anyone else.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> "Dog specialists"? Come on, you can do better than that. And "common knowledge" doesn't fly as proof around here. If something is common knowledge, you should have no problem finding real experts proving it. Try again.


Then show me a counter instead of just blind rejections. *You can do better than that. Read those links because they are from breeders. One of those links have academical references too, so your rejection/refusal is just piss poor and another random throw out of a retort. :nono:



> Actually, I knew that the rescue was run by a Cesar disciple... that fact was in my post on page 7 (post 128), in one of the quotes. I don't see why that matters, though? The point was that the dog did not get better after Cesar dealt with him on the show. I consider that a failure.


This is laughable. If Jonbee was transferred to an adoption center than that isn't a failure, because that was the goal of the owner - to make Jonbee safe for adoption. You actually think that Cesar failed this dog so it was taken to his students adoption center anyway? 


> Ruby bit a child after Cesar "rehabilitated" her.
> snip.


oh right the "we received a later report that ruby bit the child..." nevermind of there being no evidence or even a reference for that. Sorry but with information like that it's automatically dismissed as BS for even lacking a level 1 necessity. :doh: 


> This woman's snip.


Oh a link to another blog containing a reference-empty story. great. The story is claimed to be taken off a facebook group as said in the comments... really now? You here automatically eat up any "oh look cesar is bad" blog regardless of the lack of needed references to support the story yet at the same time have the "spheres" to go dismiss links that have their academic references listed? Oh the irony.. :smash: 


> And _Cesar's own producer_ admits a 20% failure rate.


I already went through this numerous times.



> All of that, and you're still claiming that Cesar never makes mistakes? He's a human being -- of course he makes mistakes.


I never said Cesar doesn't make mistakes. What are you talking about? :laugh:
I did post episodes where cesar even says his mistakes so please don't put words in my mouth and just read better. 


> I'm not saying that I think Victoria Stilwell is amazing, either.. snip


I like Victoria too and I don't minimize her ability because of her being popular on tv.. but i think she's only great with average cases and her/that positive method is great for the normal things when Cesar's is the final try. I have not seen any of those "dog behaviorists help hard serious cases like the ones Cesar was given, so by all means prove that by showing me. I've been giving that challenge for so long now. 

You talk about how Vic taught those girls but i will once again restate "Benjy" because that was an aggressive dog with a case that was normally handled and resolved on DW. You provided that Jonbee (which is why i've been saying it self ownage) one which was a much more complicated case due to Jindo's being a more stronger breed and the fact that it was not raised by the owner who called cesar for it. Benjy was a Cocker Spaniel whose aggression was with Food. Additionally, i can move that Jonbee away because there were others with that case such as Holly --we saw her bit cesar-- but look at the results of that. We have seen Cesar handle those "benjy-like" cases, and there is visible proof of it... we only hear talks about these "positive methods" yet no visible proof of that; infact it's even worse because that Benjy episode is proof of the opposite. You have posted all these blogs about dogs who went down from Cesar's methods yet they were all questionable --lacking a reference, all being of 3rd person like info.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Since when is Mexico part of the "east?" If you're going to claim CM's methods are derived from some sort of cross-pollination of dog training methods from "Asian countries" to the Phillipines, then Mexico, please provide specific sources for that and explain exactly how that progression of cross-cultural techniques came about. I don't think even CM is trying to claim his methods evolved from some kind of Shao-Lin style monk dog training.
> 
> Bro..."self-owned?" I would assume most human beings capable of accessing the Internet ARE self-owned. Slavery does still sadly exist in this world, but most slave owners stubbornly refuse those they own leisure time on Internet forums.



When i say "eastern" it's because of how Cesar's philosophies are. I see his style to be almost like that of a sensei; a martial arts like of style because of the whole concepts he teaches to his clients. Ive said that his talks sound allot to "tai-chi".. Cesar's methods are generally a mixture but more bent on instinctual methods, he learned his methods through spectating how other dogs treat each other. 

And why are you now talking about internet vocabulary. You are lucky that this forum is populated with cesar haters because in truth the moment someone starts bringing unrelated topics to neg such as "word choices of the internet" then it is certain the person has nothing in line to say. 

Sorry, but you guys have clearly showed that your dismissal towards cesar is due to high sensitivity of disciplinary methods. Also allot of ignorance with the whole Mother dog thing... remarkable how academic proof was just rejected.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> I like Victoria too and I don't minimize her ability because of her being popular on tv.. but i think she's only great with average cases and her/that positive method is great for the normal things when Cesar's is the final try. I have not seen any of those "dog behaviorists help hard serious cases like the ones Cesar was given, so by all means prove that by showing me. I've been giving that challenge for so long now.


Do you have the attention span required to read a book? Because these people are real behaviorists, not TV personalities. They share stories of aggressive dogs they've helped in their books and sometimes on blogs; if you want to see them in action, you will have to go to a seminar or hire them.

I recommend looking into (among others):

Patricia McConnell
Ian Dunbar (who you seem to like?)
Suzanne Clothier
Jean Donaldson

Here's a good blog from Jim Crosby (Canine aggression and behavior expert, retired Police Lieutenant): http://canineaggression.blogspot.ca/



> You have posted all these blogs about dogs who went down from Cesar's methods yet they were all questionable --lacking a reference, all being of 3rd person like info.


As I have said multiple times now, people who appear on Cesar's show have to sign a NDA. They LEGALLY cannot discuss their time spent with him. Anything we hear about the dogs therefore has to come from third-party sources. I don't like it either, but in this case, it's unavoidable.



> remarkable how academic proof was just rejected


Funny, that's what all of us are thinking every time we read one of your posts.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Cisco, I respect your opinion, but I have to say, if your posts made a lot of sense as you say, you'd at least have a couple of us acknowledging it.
> 
> Someone is missing the point. Either it's you or EVERYONE else.


I was going to say something like this earlier. cisco, there ARE a few Cesar fans on this forum, and at least a few people who don't love him but don't totally hate him, either. Even they don't want to come in here and agree with you, because your argument is so nonsensical that it would make them look bad by association.

Kirsten is right, too. It's been many pages now, and not one person has agreed with anything you've said. It's unlikely that it's us with the problem. It's time to look at your posts and ask yourself, "Am I stating my opinions clearly? Am I providing real evidence to back up my claims?"


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I love how anything can be claimed to be "Eastern." So what, exactly is "Eastern" about CM's methods and what do you define as "Eastern?" Buddhist philosophy stresses non-aggression in regards to all beings, including dogs. Taoism stresses balance. CM compared to a martial arts Sensei? Um, ok, what animal trainer or behaviorist served as his master? What tradition does he follow?

CM's methods are VERY Western. The idea of dominance being an issue between humans and dogs dates back to Western research that was done on captive wolves and later disproven and was propagated through Western animal trainers like the Monks of New Skete. Don't blame this on the "East." (There is a wide diversity among Asian cultures, far too much to fit your generalizations.)

Your insecurity in your own masculinity is not your dog's fault, nor will it be resolved by bullying your dog. Education and maturity may help. I know it has for me and I don't worry about my dogs taking over my authority anymore. I just worry about failing to be the teacher and protector they deserve.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Do you have the attention span required to read a book? Because these people are real behaviorists, not TV personalities. They share stories of aggressive dogs they've helped in their books and sometimes on blogs; if you want to see them in action, you will have to go to a seminar or hire them.
> 
> I recommend looking into (among others):
> 
> ...


No i read but video is better. Ive seen Ian and Patricia in person, i haven't seen seminars from Suzanne or Jean yet but i'm not ignorant of them. Ian has always been someone i looked up and still do but I've seen him and Cesar in action and i was more impressed with Cesar. But Ian still has his magic just with a different wand. Cesar and Vic are both real in what they do, being on tv and having hit shows does not make them any less of a behaviorist or a trainer and you thinking so is an unintelligent judgement. 


> Here's a good blog from Jim Crosby (Canine aggression and behavior expert, retired Police Lieutenant): http://canineaggression.blogspot.ca/


What is the significance of this blog with the topics here? 


> As I have said multiple times now, people who appear on Cesar's show have to sign a NDA. They LEGALLY cannot discuss their time spent with him. Anything we hear about the dogs therefore has to come from third-party sources. I don't like it either, but in this case, it's unavoidable.


Do you have proof of that signed NDA? Because likely i can just say that is a false assertion.. i have never heard of any legal contract of that nature so i find that interesting that something like that was made so please show that other wise this whole "nda" thing is another one of your "3rd-party source" based arguments.


> Funny, that's what all of us are thinking every time we read one of your posts.


Oh for sure.. :sarcasm: But hey with that Mother dog! Can you tell me more about the jabs too


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I love how anything can be claimed to be "Eastern." So what, exactly is "Eastern" about CM's methods and what do you define as "Eastern?" Buddhist philosophy stresses non-aggression in regards to all beings, including dogs. Taoism stresses balance. CM compared to a martial arts Sensei? Um, ok, what animal trainer or behaviorist served as his master? What tradition does he follow?
> 
> CM's methods are VERY Western. The idea of dominance being an issue between humans and dogs dates back to Western research that was done on captive wolves and later disproven and was propagated through Western animal trainers like the Monks of New Skete. Don't blame this on the "East." (There is a wide diversity among Asian cultures, far too much to fit your generalizations.)
> 
> Your insecurity in your own masculinity is not your dog's fault, nor will it be resolved by bullying your dog. Education and maturity may help. I know it has for me and I don't worry about my dogs taking over my authority anymore. I just worry about failing to be the teacher and protector they deserve.


The "energy" information he gives. Like i said, allot of it sounds so tai-chi like. Nevertheless, the techs are a mixture from instinctual to western methods but the philosophy is that of eastern like teachings. 

There is no bullying in those methods, please refrain those exaggerated terms that came from your high sensitive interpretation of cesar's actions. There is nothing immature or less in education of it.


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## MissGen (Sep 25, 2011)

Every time I see CM fanboys, I'm somewhat dismayed by how unnecessarily hostile and aggressive they come off.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Kinda like Cesar, no?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Cesar and Vic are both real in what they do, being on tv and having hit shows does not make them any less of a behaviorist or a trainer and you thinking so is an unintelligent judgement.


I prefer someone with a degree or other credentials to a TV personality. So sue me. 



> What is the significance of this blog with the topics here?


...It's a blog about canine aggression issues, written by an expert who uses positive techniques. How is that not significant?



> Do you have proof of that signed NDA? Because likely i can just say that is a false assertion.. i have never heard of any legal contract of that nature so i find that interesting that something like that was made so please show that other wise this whole "nda" thing is another one of your "3rd-party source" based arguments.


Can I just say that it's common knowledge in the dog community? Because according to you, that's proof enough.  It's been mentioned in many of the articles I linked, but there aren't any copies floating about because it's a confidential legal document. 

But let's list the things you've asked me to provide for you:

1. Proof of a behaviorist running with a pack of 50+ aggressive dogs.
2. Videos of behaviorists fixing aggressive dogs (a long process, by the way).
3. Information from people who have signed non-disclosure agreements and can't legally provide that information.
4. A copy of a confidential legal document.

See a pattern here? Because I do. You're deliberately asking for stuff that none of us can provide, because it's the only way you feel you can win an argument. Meanwhile, we're asking you to back up your assertions with proof, which should be easy to obtain if indeed the things you say are true, and you haven't given us a thing. 



> Can you tell me more about the jabs too


You know that "jab" means to poke quickly and abruptly, right? How is that inaccurate?


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I prefer someone with a degree or other credentials to a TV personality. So sue me.


Bro, it's an unintelligent dismissal period. That's like me saying i shouldn't listen to bill gates about computer stuff when there are these guys with degrees. Sure there are regularly necessities but visual proof and resume sometimes can transcend degrees. 


> ...It's a blog about canine aggression issues, written by an expert who uses positive techniques. How is that not significant?


I know about Jim Crosby, he is one of the most respected dog aggression experts.. BUT as i said before, i am on the bigger picture the "problem - trial - outcome" while critiques such as you remain only in the "trial" and the point is Millan's cases had an significant high level of that with the outcome shown. From Millan vs Victoria now the topic switches to Millan and other people? You can talk all about how Crosby's accomplishments and in the end of the day it doesn't show Millan's to be anywhere false. 


> Can I just say that it's common knowledge in the dog community? Because according to you, that's proof enough.  It's been mentioned in many of the articles I linked, but there aren't any copies floating about because it's a confidential legal document.


NDA is common knowledge in the dog community? lol You mentioned the links of blogs containing 3rd party information.. "oh i saw this on a facebook group post". 


> But let's list the things you've asked me to provide for you:
> 
> 1. Proof of a behaviorist running with a pack of 50+ aggressive dogs.
> 2. Videos of behaviorists fixing aggressive dogs (a long process, by the way).
> ...


If you want legitimacy then give legitimacy. Your arguments are all about Cesar millans methods being wrong, yet there is countless video results. If you take personal internet writing of greater credibility than you can go into cesars website and view the forum where the members are all talking about how his methods work.
Your argument of those clients signing an agreement can be consider a random slander made by a creative writing hater because there is nothing you can show about it. The accusation is pathetic.. why, again with that Jindo case. I can make the same argument to about the small segment vids of Crosby, Ian, and Vic on how they actually failed their clients in the long run but just used that NDA on them to remain silent.. 


> You know that "jab" means to poke quickly and abruptly, right? How is that inaccurate?


Well if you meant that definition, then that "jab" isn't anything to complain about.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Since this debate will likely never end... the rate it's going. I will give my last piece of my thoughts.

I recommend methods such as the suggested "positive method" but i don't reject Cesar Millan. I support it and consider it a positive method. The accusations of him bullying, flooding, intimidation, shut downs, and the exaggerations of his physical touches are dumb and only given such exaggerations because people are sensitive about methods of discipline and don't have the sense to determine the difference between discipline and abuse. Just like how there are people who think spanking a child in the butt regardless of it cursing or bullying at the age of 7 is guilty of child abuse..

I think the hate towards CM is not only invalid but unintelligent because it is fact that he has saved the lives of many dogs; dogs who were even given a pass for euthanasia by experts. This is not only evident in his show, but the proof of success can be seen in the forum section of his website. People can make all their claims about how cesar's methods are harmful and how sadistic/barabaric it is, but the results show the positivity. Instead of looking at a certain part of the picture look at the ENTIRE picture: "Problem-Trial-Outcome". People can reference all these other experts and how they are better (and no one denies that these experts have their knowledge) but they do not have the number of visible proof backing them up as to what Cesar does with his DW episodes and the comments from people who got his help. If the people here want to plug their ears and yell "lalala" about that being facts, i know that the people here who are likely lurking will have an easier time finding an amount of evidence including video evidence for that. 

In terms of the topic on CM vs VS, CM is a much superior person in helping your dogs. Victoria is a great trainer who's methods i would suggest over cesar due to it being "methods for dummies" as seen in her show where 99% of the cases where average cases. You can find many videos of her too and one of them talks about the yes and no's and how it will even help the red zone dogs. Yet when she finally runs into those type of red zone dogs having problems that were common towards the guy she bashed, she had no other recommendation than to put the dog to sleep. The dog being a Cocker Spaniel with food aggression. So if that was a case where she threw in the towel and went "put the dog down" imagine if she was the one contacted for Jonbee the random stray Jindo, Oscar the pitbull, Holly the food aggressive Lab, Bucky the aggressive adopted pitbull with a high abused past, or Francis the GSD? 

Fact is, people can make all these claims about CM being some sort of inhumane handler but that man has shown to give all effort in helping the dog stay alive. Even if his methods can cringe "sensitive" people it's the bigger picture that matters, which is logical for anybody reasonable. The bigger the problem, the harder the trial - the more bold the necessities are- and the greater the outcome. If a massive problem ends in a great outcome, then what ever was needed to be done during the trial was reasonably necessary.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Bro, it's an unintelligent dismissal period. That's like me saying i shouldn't listen to bill gates about computer stuff when there are these guys with degrees. Sure there are regularly necessities but visual proof and resume sometimes can transcend degrees.


Why do you keep calling me "bro"? I'm female. Do you just call everyone "bro"? It's weird. 

And yeah, maybe my statement was a little too glib. I don't think that a degree is necessary to understand dog behavior. However, I don't agree that Cesar has the "visual proof and resume" to put him on par with the educated and respected experts in the dog behavior field. Your "proof" that he does is his heavily-edited, necessarily-biased TV show (and yes, I think that Victoria's show is the same; people don't watch these shows to see failures). _All I am asking for_ is a couple of outside opinions from credible experts who agree that his methods are good. I can find many who speak out against his methods. Can you find any who speak for them?



> I know about Jim Crosby, he is one of the most respected dog aggression experts.. BUT as i said before, i am on the bigger picture the "problem - trial - outcome" while critiques such as you remain only in the "trial"


Can you rephrase this? Your meaning is unclear.



> From Millan vs Victoria now the topic switches to Millan and other people? You can talk all about how Crosby's accomplishments and in the end of the day it doesn't show Millan's to be anywhere false.


I didn't switch the topic. You asked me to show you an expert who works with the same kind of cases that Cesar does. Crosby is one such person; the others I linked to are more.



> NDA is common knowledge in the dog community? lol You mentioned the links of blogs containing 3rd party information.. "oh i saw this on a facebook group post".


Dude, I deliberately made the "common knowledge" quip because earlier, when I asked you for proof of mother dogs aggressively pinning their young, you told me that it's "common knowledge" as if that was enough. 

I don't know what you want here. I can't get my hands on a legal document. But NDAs are required on almost all reality TV shows. If Cesar doesn't have one, then how come we never hear any "behind the scenes" stuff, positive _or_ negative, from any of the hundreds of people who have appeared on his show? 



> If you want legitimacy then give legitimacy. Your arguments are all about Cesar millans methods being wrong, yet there is countless video results. If you take personal internet writing of greater credibility than you can go into cesars website and view the forum where the members are all talking about how his methods work.


So, video proof = episodes of his show, and "greater credibility" = fans of his show? No actual dog behaviorists?



> Your argument of those clients signing an agreement can be consider a random slander


No, it can't. Slander is a "malicious, false, and defamatory statement." I know you believe that what I said about the NDA is false, but what's malicious or defamatory about saying people have to sign one? 



> The accusation is pathetic.. why, again with that Jindo case. I can make the same argument to about the small segment vids of Crosby, Ian, and Vic on how they actually failed their clients in the long run but just used that NDA on them to remain silent..


What are you trying to say here? Ian doesn't have a TV show, so I sincerely doubt he's making his clients sign a NDA. Victoria probably has one, yeah. Like I said, it's pretty much standard in TV. But I'm not sure what you're even getting at here.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Your argument of those clients signing an agreement can be consider a random slander


Bologna. And, in this case, it would be libel, as this is all written, not spoken. It's a moot point (that's right, moot, not mute), like most of your "arguments".


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

cisco said:


> Since this debate will likely never end... the rate it's going. I will give my last piece of my thoughts.


Do you really mean it this time? 



> I recommend methods such as the suggested "positive method" but i don't reject Cesar Millan. I support it and consider it a positive method. The accusations of him bullying, flooding, intimidation, shut downs, and the exaggerations of his physical touches are dumb and only given such exaggerations because people are sensitive about methods of discipline and don't have the sense to determine the difference between discipline and abuse.


...Okay, except that several of us on this thread used to actually use those methods, so... did we suddenly become "sensitive," or did we start reading and learning and realize that his techniques aren't the best way to train a dog? Food for thought.

As for the flooding, intimidation, shut down... that stuff is glaringly obvious to anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of dog calming signals and avoidance behaviors.



> People can reference all these other experts and how they are better (and no one denies that these experts have their knowledge) but they do not have the number of visible proof backing them up as to what Cesar does with his DW episodes and the comments from people who got his help. If the people here want to plug their ears and yell "lalala" about that being facts, i know that the people here who are likely lurking will have an easier time finding an amount of evidence including video evidence for that.


Why are you putting it on the lurkers to find that? If it's easy to find, why don't you find it? Posting some evidence would really improve your argument.

And it's laughable that you consider Cesar better than people like Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell, who have spent years helping hundreds of dogs, just because you see Cesar on TV. 



> Yet when she finally runs into those type of red zone dogs having problems that were common towards the guy she bashed, she had no other recommendation than to put the dog to sleep.


Like I said earlier, the cocker spaniel was not the only aggressive dog she dealt with. Can you even provide other examples of her failing with a dog like that? I'm getting the impression that that's the only episode you ever watched, if you even watched that.



> The bigger the problem, the harder the trial - the more bold the necessities are- and the greater the outcome. If a massive problem ends in a great outcome, then what ever was needed to be done during the trial was reasonably necessary.


First: The outcome is not great 20% of the time (at least).

Second: This is just not true. Positive training can cure resource guarders. It can drastically improve and help manage human aggression and dog aggression. It works better than harsh techniques that force the dog to suppress its desires. It is _not necessary_ to react to an aggressive dog with harsh techniques. I know you'll never believe this because you need to see training unfolding on a flashy TV show to believe that it's happening, but the good behaviorists I have discussed in this thread have staked their reputations and careers on improving the situation of dogs that are just as bad as, if not worse than, anything you've seen on TV. Read a book by one of them. If you want to come back and argue after that, I'll be around.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

This will be the last time i will argue with you. 



Crantastic said:


> Why do you keep calling me "bro"? I'm female. Do you just call everyone "bro"? It's weird.


Has everyone i argued with here women?


> And yeah, maybe my statement was a little too glib. I don't think that a degree is necessary to understand dog behavior. However, I don't agree that Cesar has the "visual proof and resume" to put him on par with the educated and respected experts in the dog behavior field. Your "proof" that he does is his heavily-edited, necessarily-biased TV show (and yes, I think that Victoria's show is the same; people don't watch these shows to see failures). _All I am asking for_ is a couple of outside opinions from credible experts who agree that his methods are good. I can find many who speak out against his methods. Can you find any who speak for them?
> 
> 
> > Like i said. Even if it is edited, there is still results. Editing is common knowledge but as i said you can't just focus on one dot of the picture but the entire. Problem-trial-outcome. The reason why those videos are still regarded as evidence regardless of the edits is because of those 3 factors that are not affected by it. much more with the "outcome". You can make all the excuses of contracts of silence but there is no evidence of that.
> ...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The majority of people you have "argued" with are indeed female. That said, calling people "bro" in the context you have been really just reeks of disrespect in general.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Kevin T said:


> I wonder if CM is a disciple of William Koehler. Has he said so?


In the first place, Cesar doesn't train dogs (unless he's started very recently). What Wm. Koehler did and what C. Milan do are very different. In the second place, the Koehler Method still works. In the intervening years since its publication, much has been learned about canine behavior/learning. Much of his original tract can be modified or completely discarded, but the basic philosophy gets excellent results when administered PROPERLY. For realz.

Lastly, I've searched my copy of _The Koehler Method Of Dog Training_ and cannot find a single instance of the word(s) "pack", "dominance", "submissive", or any of the other buzzwords that Cesar uses. I accept the possibility that I've missed an example or two, but those concepts do not play a major role in Koehler's training method. WK relies on reward vs. punishment and the contrast between the two.

Assuming a basically sound training regime (and a non-insane dog), good trainers get good results; bad trainers get crappy results. This is true regardless of method.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Just for the concerns and misconceptions presented against cesar's methods.. here's a link made by a fan who presents a better explanation on what he really does. 
http://backalleysoapbox.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/in-defence-of-cesar/


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't think an article written by a fan is going to be unbiased enough to provide a good enough explanation. Plus, most of us here tend to lean towards facts rather than opinion when it comes to stuff like this.

Plus... he spelled "Defense" wrong.... LOL


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I don't think an article written by a fan is going to be unbiased enough to provide a good enough explanation. Plus, most of us here tend to lean towards facts rather than opinion when it comes to stuff like this.
> 
> Plus... he spelled "Defense" wrong.... LOL


Your "facts" where all refuted, sorry. In fact, you guys couldn't even provide visible material for results of higher cases so you are all about word of gossip only. But if you all want to continue the false accusations of "abuse" that's all up to you.

Anyway, the link shouldn't be ignored due to the choice of remaining close minded and yapping against a method out of ignorance and just high sensitivity. 

PS:* Defense* is the american english spelling, while in Oz, Uk it's spelled as Defence. lol *facepalm

outie


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

cisco said:


> You do know that posting a "life story" is a useless argument in forums? I can make a story about me going to an aggressive power breed and using victoria's positive method and it came out with the owners putting the dog down. You see what i did there?
> 
> Asian countries and some Hispanic areas (mexico) do the eastern method. We have the philosophy of energy in our way of handling dogs. The way you describe dominance is like a forceful method, that's why your posts are generally inaccurate. I currently live now in the Philippines so i see a various amount of dogs, some even owned by the many homeless around here. Cesar's methods are not something that was known when he became famous.
> 
> My reply to crantastic contained the jist of the entire arguments presented since this began you can make any diminishing remarks about my reply as much as you want but the truth is you guys are the ones who are ignorant of the eastern method. How many times did i have to correct the whole errors involving the physical touches given here?


The reason why I describe it this way is because it is a very forceful method. You cannot justify the "bites" that CM administers as anything other than being a physical disrupter. There is no other way to describe alpha rolling, the jabs/kicking that are supposed to mimic a dog biting, etc. It's still forceful. It uses physical force, and CM claims over and over that the dog must "surrender" to the touch, to the person.

The idea that you have to be calm and collected is perfectly fine, but people don't believe in DOMINANCE in East Asian countries, which is basically the foundation of CM's methods. And you living in the Philippines but having never lived in Japan or Korea or China, or any of the other Asian countries does not make you an expert on "Eastern methods" whatever the hell that means lol. Neither does it justify you generalizing all dogs in Asia as being generally better behaved than their North American counterparts. So again, you have failed to justify your claim (which is pretty essential in "proving" that such methods work??).

Actually, I wasn't even arguing with you when I first wrote my response, but you kind of just jumped on me because you assumed that I was writing directly to you. What I wrote was, and I have no clue why you would think that only an ARGUMENT merits a response, that the dogs that I have dealt with respond MUCH better to positive training. Period. Doesn't matter if it's administered by a professional, or an amateur.

And I'll bring it around back to one of my original points, which is this: IF CM'S METHODS ARE ONLY EFFECTIVE WHEN ADMINISTERED BY A VERY VERY VERY SEASONED PROFESSIONAL, THEN HE SHOULD NOT BE TEACHING HIS METHODS TO HIS CLIENTS WHO CLEARLY DO NOT HAVE THE AMOUNT OF "EXPERIENCE" HE HAS. Furthermore, the fact that CM himself gets bitten numerous times, the proof that many of his clients' dogs were actually put down after the show due to aggression, shows that even CM himself is not administering his methods correctly, BY YOUR LOGIC. So is this a method that really works? No, not really. If he himself can't administer it properly, he has no place in teaching it to others. Also note that you have outwardly admitted that r+ methods are much easier, and can achieve the same things. So why the heck would you choose the harder method, especially when it doesn't give you any advantage in how quickly the dog is rehabilitated/learns the behavior? There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON, by that logic, to be support CM at all, whether or not the method works when properly used.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Cisco you are making the claim that dogs with serious behavior issues REQUIRE Cesar's methods and that positive reinforcement methods won't work simply based on the fact that VS couldn't help the Cocker Spaniel. Because she didn't succeed with one dog the entire method is shot? In reality she failed not the method, she is an actress with learned to train dogs not a trainer who got a TV show. This is why Cran has provided links to numerous positive reinforcement trainers who do work with dogs with serious behavior issues and have been successful. Simply because they aren't shown on TV does not nullify their results no mater how much you may want to claim so. 

No one has said Cesar's methods won't work on any dog. What we are saying is that it won't work on every dog, they will cause some dogs to become worse. Positive reinforcement methods will always work in the long run and foster a better relationship between you and your dog. You will not do harm physically or emotionally with positive reinforcement methods, the same can not be said about Cesar's methods.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh yeah, this just came to me. Check out the show Dog Town. Best Friend's animal sanctuary takes in the worst cases from other shelters and rehabilitates them using positive reinforcement train techniques. That will provide you with some video.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cisco said:


> If a massive problem ends in a great outcome, then what ever was needed to be done during the trial was reasonably necessary.


This is an incredibly dangerous argument to make. The ends do not justify the means.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> In the first place, Cesar doesn't train dogs (unless he's started very recently). What Wm. Koehler did and what C. Milan do are very different. In the second place, the Koehler Method still works. In the intervening years since its publication, much has been learned about canine behavior/learning. Much of his original tract can be modified or completely discarded, but the basic philosophy gets excellent results when administered PROPERLY. For realz.
> 
> Lastly, I've searched my copy of _The Koehler Method Of Dog Training_ and cannot find a single instance of the word(s) "pack", "dominance", "submissive", or any of the other buzzwords that Cesar uses. I accept the possibility that I've missed an example or two, but those concepts do not play a major role in Koehler's training method. WK relies on reward vs. punishment and the contrast between the two.
> 
> Assuming a basically sound training regime (and a non-insane dog), good trainers get good results; bad trainers get crappy results. This is true regardless of method.


Say it again MM.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

taquitos said:


> The reason why I describe it this way is because it is a very forceful method. You cannot justify the "bites" that CM administers as anything other than being a physical disrupter. There is no other way to describe alpha rolling, the jabs/kicking that are supposed to mimic a dog biting, etc. It's still forceful. It uses physical force, and CM claims over and over that the dog must "surrender" to the touch, to the person.


And that is where the misconception is. It's not a forceful method.. it's a disciplinary method. You don't understand the role of behaviorists, it's normal for some behaviorists to actually bring out the accused aggression so that he/she himself can see it for himself therefore making a more accurate way procedure. The touches are not forceful it's all just for the sake of correction -- ie a dog is already giving a signal that he will launch right at the next dog walking by, the tap snaps his brain out of that state of mind. It's not a forceful method like in a sense of bullying but teaching. Again your "sensitivity" clouds your judgement. 


> The idea that you have to be calm and collected is perfectly fine, but people don't believe in DOMINANCE in East Asian countries, which is basically the foundation of CM's methods. And you living in the Philippines but having never lived in Japan or Korea or China, or any of the other Asian countries does not make you an expert on "Eastern methods" whatever the hell that means lol. Neither does it justify you generalizing all dogs in Asia as being generally better behaved than their North American counterparts. So again, you have failed to justify your claim (which is pretty essential in "proving" that such methods work??).
> 
> 
> > Learn the semantics of "dominance". Dominance in Cesar's method = being a Leader. You are using the word in a sense to mean something as "beating" or "winning over the dog with power". Again at how you girls have built a misconception out of high sensitivity to disciplinary methods that have touching in it..
> ...


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Cesar Millan is not a behaviorist, just an FYI. To actually be a behaviorist you have to have a degree, lol.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cisco said:


> No i read but video is better. Ive seen Ian and Patricia in person, i haven't seen seminars from Suzanne or Jean yet but i'm not ignorant of them. Ian has always been someone i looked up and still do but I've seen him and Cesar in action and i was more impressed with Cesar. But Ian still has his magic just with a different wand. Cesar and Vic are both real in what they do, being on tv and having hit shows does not make them any less of a behaviorist or a trainer and you thinking so is an unintelligent judgement.
> 
> What is the significance of this blog with the topics here?
> 
> ...


But ............ HUMANS. ARE. NOT. DOGS.

Humans don't have enough knowledge of dog nonverbal communication to implicate "dogish". Example? I speak Spanish & understand it pretty well but I could never masquerade as someone of Latin American decent mostly because it would be blare oy offensive & rude to do so ... Shouldn't we extend dogs the same curtesy? Dogs are like foreigners in our world, different customs, mannerisms, a language they don't understand ... Learn they language & THEIR customs THE RIGHT WAY.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

dagwall said:


> Cisco you are making the claim that dogs with serious behavior issues REQUIRE Cesar's methods and that positive reinforcement methods won't work simply based on the fact that VS couldn't help the Cocker Spaniel. Because she didn't succeed with one dog the entire method is shot? In reality she failed not the method, she is an actress with learned to train dogs not a trainer who got a TV show. This is why Cran has provided links to numerous positive reinforcement trainers who do work with dogs with serious behavior issues and have been successful. Simply because they aren't shown on TV does not nullify their results no mater how much you may want to claim so.


Victoria is not an actress. She was not some random dog lover that was picked up to make a show, you think tv shows just do that? Victoria is an expert trainer even before her show started. She is just inferior to Millan in all areas. You see, I've read that book from Jim (the one that was on that link) if you read the book the actions he uses for aggressive behavior were longer processes that were almost similar to Millans, just stretched out with longer and involving more man work. It was still inferior. Rewatch that brindle aggressive Pit episode, his aggression left faster because of how the owners learned the whole touch techniques to snap him out of the state of mind. Basically, i find Millian more impressive as an aggression handler than any of them posted because look at how he gets the results faster: "he's not attacking the guy who came in the door anymore". People can make all the excuses they want.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cisco said:


> This will be the last time i will argue with you.
> Has everyone i argued with here women?


Is there a problem with most of us bein women? Just curious.

& we are not arguing with you, we just want you to see how damaging CM's techniques can be to some dogs.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> But ............ HUMANS. ARE. NOT. DOGS.
> 
> Humans don't have enough knowledge of dog nonverbal communication to implicate "dogish". Example? I speak Spanish & understand it pretty well but I could never masquerade as someone of Latin American decent mostly because it would be blare oy offensive & rude to do so ... Shouldn't we extend dogs the same curtesy? Dogs are like foreigners in our world, different customs, mannerisms, a language they don't understand ... Learn they language & THEIR customs THE RIGHT WAY.


And dogs are not humans. Stop treating or feeling them like that. Touches are not wrong. You doing a touch of a mother dog is not hurting the dog physically, psychologically or emotionally stop thinking that. You said it yourself, "learn their language and customs" that is why the touches are not wrong. That is in their language. LOL. 

I'm very sick of replying to each of these misconceptions already. i have provided a link that explains covers all accusations given against cesar better. Just pretend some guy replied with it here. Here it is again... 

http://backalleysoapbox.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/in-defence-of-cesar/


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

cisco said:


> Victoria is not an actress.


Really?? Not an actress?



> Stilwell originally trained as an actress, playing roles in Bram Stoker's Dracula in 1992, ITV1's The Bill in 1994, and onstage in London's West End theatre, as well as several commercials and voiceovers. She received a BA honours degree in Theatre from Middlesex University.[1] In order to supplement her income as an actress, Stilwell's veterinary nurse sister suggested that she start a dog walking agency. Within a month she was walking 20 dogs per day - 10 in the morning, 10 in the afternoon - and immediately recognized the need for qualified professionals to help her clients with the training process. She then expanded her focus to dog training and after moving to the United States with her husband in 1999, Stilwell co-founded several dog training companies up and down the East Coast.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> Is there a problem with most of us bein women? Just curious.
> 
> & we are not arguing with you, we just want you to see how damaging CM's techniques can be to some dogs.


No the majority of forums i've been to were populated by men.. but yes women have a unique sensitivity which is understandable. I don't see CM's techniques to be damaging, and i think that it is false unless it is performed wrong and none of the philosophies are in them. Just read the link..


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

dagwall said:


> Really?? Not an actress?


wiki? to wiki if you've appeared on tv that = actress. VS is an expert trainer and she was what she was before she went on tv. Stop that because it is silly to think she was just some random girl picked up for a dog tv show with real life clients. It's post like this that turn me off from threads..


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

VS actually IS an actress! Read her bio here found on her website. She is both an actress and a positive trainer. She doesn't seem to state that she has any degrees in dog psychology but claims to have studied under some of the greatest positive trainers of our time. No clue as to whom they are. 

http://positively.com/victoria-stilwell/about-victoria/

She isn't the greatest positive trainer ever but she is by far better than CM.

Also, CM has said sexist things so I've a bone to pick with him about that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Cisco just curious. Have you ever actually trained a dog in any specific discipline? I am not talking about 'I had a dog and he behaved'. I mean something beyond good house manners. Competition level anything? Service or working dogs?

If you want good dog training, you need to find people that have trained dogs to a very high degree and have actual proof of it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

cisco said:


> Again your "sensitivity" clouds your judgement.


Seems to me, your insensitivity clouds yours.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cisco said:


> No the majority of forums i've been to were populated by men.. but yes women have a unique sensitivity which is understandable. I don't see CM's techniques to be damaging, and i think that it is false unless it is performed wrong and none of the philosophies are in them. Just read the link..


I might be a little biased ... But I think this ^^^ is why women make better trainers.

Anyway humans lack the timing it takes to correct a dog in dogish. Why do that when there is another way they is more error proof they is still easily understood by the dog? If CM really knew his stuff he would let his "pack" correct bad bahavior of other dogs but he wants to be the referee, thus he makes a lot of work for himself. 

True "alphas" don't insert themselves in scuabbles btw the middle class the lower dogs on the totem pole are the ones who squabble with each other, true self assured dogs / leaders don't do this. 

Even if CM was a good trainer (which he is not) I wouldn't use him soley based on his views/opinions of women


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

I looooooooove this idea that we're all just being silly womens and can't see the truth behind CM. LOL.

Listen, BRO, you have no idea what my range of experience has been. Try splitting up a fight between a Great Dane and Rottweiler (AGGRESSIVE POWER BREEDS), dealing with human aggressive, unstable GSDs (OMG MOAR POWER BREEDS), etc, etc, etc. We try at all costs to prevent fights between dogs but when they happen, you do whatever it takes to end it with a minimum of harm to both parties. Sometimes that means dogs get yanked, kicked, choked off, etc. And if a dog is harming a human, all bets are off, still aiming for a minimum of harm for both parties but the humans always comes first. 

Ah, the idea that I am "sensitive" cracks me up, lol.

When it comes to training (not managing an emergency situation), I believe in being the smarter animal. That doesn't make me sensitive. It makes me intelligent.


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## Analytical Ada (Apr 23, 2013)

I think the saddest thing is that the Dog Whisperer is delivered through the highly digestible medium of television. The average dog owner is not going to pick up a book on dog training or conduct research online. My husband had never owned a dog until adulthood, so when he watched DW, Cesar's explanations seemed logical to him. What we need is more positive examples on TV. Of course, TV must be entertaining, and methods that take weeks before results are obtained isn't most peoples' idea of fun. 

Does anyone know of a television show that DOES set a good example? There was one Animal Planet show with a goofy guy from Canada that seemed to use positive reinforcement, but I don't remember what the show was called. I stopped watching Animal Planet when it became "Surprisingly Human."


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

@dagwall ahe maybe an actress ... But at least she went out & got properly educated before marketing herself as a "bahavior expert" 

I don't know if anyone knows this but CM has appears on several TV shows including "Bones" , "ghost whisperer" & "the Apprentice" as a guest judge as well as a few movies including "Beetoven's big break" & "the backup plan" so I guess that makes him an "actor" as well 

Here is the article source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cesar_Millan


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

cisco said:


> I don't see CM's techniques to be damaging, (...)


Like the blind leading the blind.

Have you ever had a RELATIONSHIP with a dog ? ... by that I mean, one that goes _beyond_ 'what I say goes' ? One with equal input from both parties ?


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Yes you all have been silly women who can't get the difference between discipline and abuse and have exaggerated the whole "dominance" techniques as to some form of bullying. What makes you all silly is that you are still insisting to take notice of one part of the picture you really have no care for the entire. 

Now you guys are giving "she/he's an actress" for some reason having a tv show is a minus now to credentials. None of you realize how dumb that argument is? Victoria and Cesar became famous and got tv shows for a reason they were not just random pics, why pic them over other trainers you claim are better? 



> Cesar Millan is not a behaviorist, just an FYI. To actually be a behaviorist you have to have a degree, lol.


Emily this is dumb. For things like dog behavior, you can actually be an expert if you were well exposed to it before HS level onwards. I guess i shouldn't call Bill Gates a computer tech due to him not having a degree.



dogdragoness said:


> I might be a little biased ... But I think this ^^^ is why women make better trainers.
> Anyway humans lack the timing it takes to correct a dog in dogish. Why do that when there is another way they is more error proof they is still easily understood by the dog?


Maybe because those owners sent those dogs to trainers already that failed and suggested euthanasia as an option? We saw that in those episodes. 



> If CM really knew his stuff he would let his "pack" correct bad bahavior of other dogs but he wants to be the referee, thus he makes a lot of work for himself.


Because the way dogs correct bad behavior is violent that is why he referee's. Again, dog corrections involve growling, biting.. these things eventually become fights. You just threw away credibility with what i quoted here.. you are suggesting that he allows his dogs to correct the aggressive behavior of a dog? 

Cesar uses his dogs to see/understand the type of dog he is dealing with. Just like in that one episode where he shows his client aggressive dog through the other side of the gate just to see what reaction his pack gets. Or that episode where Junior was still a pup and chose to keep his distance from the client dog.. stuff like that. But using his dogs to correct bad behavior is dumb and will lead to a dog getting hurt. However, you just brought out one of the things that i admired from Cesar, was how he used his pitbulls to help allot of dogs out. It was great that the decade finally had a positive pitbull rep who were not only docile but helpers. 


> True "alphas" don't insert themselves in scuabbles btw the middle class the lower dogs on the totem pole are the ones who squabble with each other, true self assured dogs / leaders don't do this.
> 
> Even if CM was a good trainer (which he is not) I wouldn't use him soley based on his views/opinions of women


Your "true alpha" thing was just.. nevermind. Now Millian is being given accusations of being a sexist. Well, I never heard him saying anything bad about women to be upset about nevertheless we are on the topic of Dog treating anyway. it's irrelevant. If you don't want to use him soley based on your feelings because of what his "views" of women are, that's your business. 

@emily, there is nothing wrong with touches for correction. i don't care as to where you have been trying to go with this whole mother dog mimicry thing. It's not a wrong or unintelligent method anyway. You are being silly.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> Cisco just curious. Have you ever actually trained a dog in any specific discipline? I am not talking about 'I had a dog and he behaved'. I mean something beyond good house manners. Competition level anything? Service or working dogs?
> 
> If you want good dog training, you need to find people that have trained dogs to a very high degree and have actual proof of it.


I got skipped. Maybe I should just go back to cooking food for menfolk.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I HATE this thread for the singular reason that I get the Thong Song stuck in my head. I HATE that! 

*AND I AM MALE!!! *


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

cisco said:


> Emily this is dumb. For things like dog behavior, you can actually be an expert if you were well exposed to it before HS level onwards. I guess i shouldn't call Bill Gates a computer tech due to him not having a degree.


Nope, it's a fact. But I'm gleaning that you generally think facts are dumb, anyway. LOL Behaviorist has a specific definition and and Millan does not qualify as one, no matter how people misuse the term.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

cisco said:


> wiki? to wiki if you've appeared on tv that = actress. VS is an expert trainer and she was what she was before she went on tv. Stop that because it is silly to think she was just some random girl picked up for a dog tv show with real life clients. It's post like this that turn me off from threads..


Wiki was easy to find quickly, but doesn't make it untrue and better sources aren't THAT hard to find. You are only getting a small bit of my attention as I AM at work doing SOME work.

The reason I pointed out that she's an actress who later became a dog trainer was to illustrate that that probably played a large role in why SHE has a TV show verses all the other qualified positive reinforcement trainers around. I have no clue as to the development of the show but I'd guess her prior acting experience helped her get the role. When the choice is between VS and CM I would pick VS every single time but that doesn't make her my ideal trainer either.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Like the blind leading the blind.
> 
> Have you ever had a RELATIONSHIP with a dog ? ... by that I mean, one that goes _beyond_ 'what I say goes' ? One with equal input from both parties ?


Oh yes i do. I like clowning with my dogs but i don't like them showing any negative behavior. I make sure they have their rights met by not neglecting any time for their needs... 

You guys really think a person who follows millan = a bad owner. You guys are now inserting the whole "he's only a tv star" nevermind that outside of the tv both CM and VS have books, seminars, and real clients with real success. 

I'm sorry but this is one of the most unintelligent dog forum i have ever been to who will really just throw any sort of argument they can think of. You were all refuted by the fact that all success in their TV shows are real, you can make all the dumb statements to make it appear scripted but the results and clients are real. There are no reliable sources for any dog's getting killed after being given CM's methods all the "links" posted contained nothing but 3rd party information but there are more sources that are visible for CM's success. get over it. 
You all have been shown proof as to how Mother dogs discipline their young with actual academic references by breeders on sites dedicated for breeding, yet you chose to ignore them. You were all told how misrepresenting your whole "dominance/alpha/kicks/chokes..." accusations were. One now goes into "millan said bad stuff about women..". 

You all make judgements on a single picture but ignore the entire picture and you label gossip (those links talking about 3rd party information) as facts. 

"look at these expert behaviorists/trainers... read what they say" yet there is nothing i can see for my own eyes. I can actually see CM do his work with a number of those dangerous cases and also see the success after. I don't see theirs other than articles. I've seen random videos but none of them contained the same drama -statistically at the least. 

If you guys insist on being that close minded and throw any guessed out and gossip based links as an argument then i'm just wasting my time. lmao

@dagwell, i understand that but that's an assertion based on Vic. I don't think that her being a tv star minus' her value in the field. Nevertheless Millan is miles above her in talent and skill.. because of the fact that her show is all averages cases and she failed with Benjy - a common dog whisperer case.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

cisco said:


> "look at these expert behaviorists/trainers... read what they say" yet there is nothing i can see for my own eyes. I can actually see CM do his work with a number of those dangerous cases and also see the success after. I don't see theirs other than articles. I've seen random videos but* none of them contained the same drama *-statistically at the least.


Maybe because they're not tv shows?

Real dog training usually ain't that exciting. Not many people are going to sit down and watch someone do the look at that game for an hour long show or watch them play crate games for several weeks. Good dog training shouldn't be *dramatic* at all. All that crap is the for tv part of both VS and CM's shows. You want real dog training, find a trainer and watch them work -IN PERSON- with those dogs. It's really that simple. 

I wish Sandy was still around. She would have had a hayday with this thread. She was such a great trainer and also had PROOF via dogs with things like... oh I dunno, OTCHs. Among many other things.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I HATE this thread for the singular reason that I get the Thong Song stuck in my head. I HATE that!
> 
> *AND I AM MALE!!! *


Thong song? Lol I don't get it.

@cisco here are some examples of CM's sexism:
http://www.salon.com/2006/09/01/dog_whisperer_2/
http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/new-york-times.html

& since you like videos more then reading here are some video links
http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=cesar+millan+against+women


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

cisco said:


> Yes you all have been silly women who can't get the difference between discipline and abuse and have exaggerated the whole "dominance" techniques as to some form of bullying. What makes you all silly is that you are still insisting to take notice of one part of the picture you really have no care for the entire.
> 
> Now you guys are giving "she/he's an actress" for some reason having a tv show is a minus now to credentials. None of you realize how dumb that argument is? Victoria and Cesar became famous and got tv shows for a reason they were not just random pics, why pic them over other trainers you claim are better?
> 
> ...



Watch yourself. This forum has strict rules prohibiting insulting other members, and you are dancing very close to that line here. You won't receive a second warning.


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## cisco (Apr 22, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Nope, it's a fact. But I'm gleaning that you generally think facts are dumb, anyway. LOL Behaviorist has a specific definition and and Millan does not qualify as one, no matter how people misuse the term.


Nope it's not fact. You are just slapping the word for it. Being able to have that ability with dogs can be taught through experience, it's called a talent. Regardless, Millan was awarded a masters degree by bergin university, so you lose both ways.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Oops, posted too soon, OP crossed the line even as I was posting my warning, lol.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> Thong song? Lol I don't get it.


You're lucky you don't get it, so don't youtube Sisqo Thong Song, you'll regret it for the rest of your life.

YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What a weird thread.

Who would have known that dog training should be measured by the amount of drama?


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Oops, posted too soon, OP crossed the line even as I was posting my warning, lol.


Ahh... this thread has provided a nice time sink the last two days while I've been bored at work with very little workflow coming through. Cisco's stubborn ignorance was at least entertaining while it lasted. haha.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Darn it, life is boring again . All that pesky work stuff that now we have to actually do and all.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

What for calling someone "silly?" I don't find that as insulting as what he said about since we are female we can't be good trainers lol ... Just saying.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

He was far more insulting to members earlier, but then he was still entertaining at that point. 

Dudebro. <----Captures the argument in its entirety.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> What for calling someone "silly?" I don't find that as insulting as what he said about since we are female we can't be good trainers lol ... Just saying.


No, for calling the members of this forum the most unintelligent He's seen. Might want to read all his posts before arguing.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

I wasn't going to bother 
as I find Cesar Millan postings to be useless at best but,
as this one seems to have degraded quite quickly, here goes.

I've seen Victoria Stilwell's show, 
met the woman,
have little personal use for either,
but wish her nothing but good things!

As for C.M. ... yes, I "like" him.
I like his rags to riches story ... Kudos to him!
I like his T.V. persona.
I've enjoyed his show.

Admittedly, I'm no dog expert,
but having (very successfully, IMO) worked with dogs 
before C.M. was even born, 
I watched his episodes, as they say,
"_for entertainment purposes only_" and,
for the most part, I have been entertained...

I've found many of the episodes to be quite entertaining,
while others to be boring and repetitive.
But "_The Dog Whisperer_" is not life;
it's just "reality" :laugh: T.V.,
and I always retain the option of changing channels or, 
simply, turning the television off.

As far as his "techniques" are concerned,
_*I choose to ignore*_ the "touches" (the pokes and kicks) 
and the "alpha rolls", as I have no use for these.
Also, I ignore his "power of the pack" thing
as it, too, is of no use to me; I have no large pack.

I would not say that the man is not sexist,
but I don't see him as being the misogynistic bastard
so many would make him out to be.
He simply seems to be the product of 
his upbringing and life experience and,
like the rest of us, is trying to cope with life the best he can.
Admittedly, if I were a woman, 
_perhaps_ I'd have a different opinion of the man?

On a positive note now,
what I really like about C.M. is, what I see as, 
universal fundamentals of his core philosophy:
- *be calm*
- *be assertive*
- *never lose your temper*
- the *pack structure *concept 
(although, for many people and dogs, this is a none issue)
- the whole "*energy* thing",
although I do find the concept a bit "artsy fartsy",
the reality, for me, is undeniable.

These are my opinions ..."_chacun à son goût_".

And I won't stomp on anyone else's views
regardless of how wrong they may be :wink:.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If those ideals are his core philosophy. . .he breaks them himself quite often. Especially the temper thing.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Darn it, life is boring again . All that pesky work stuff that now we have to actually do and all.


Yeah ... Darnit lol I was finding this entertaining to the point wher di was anxious to see the notifications for this thread in my inbox lol.

I have read the entire thread ... I have been posting in it since like page 1, I even went back & read all Cisco's posts, & I wouldn't call anything he said "insulting" persay, he said our views were "ignorant" & that "women don't make good trainers because we're too emotional" (I think that's what makes us good is that we are emotional lol).

I don't know ... I'm just really really thick skinned I guess lol so maybe I'm not the best person to judge what is insulting.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Maybe because they're not tv shows?
> 
> Real dog training usually ain't that exciting. Not many people are going to sit down and watch someone do the look at that game for an hour long show or watch them play crate games for several weeks. Good dog training shouldn't be *dramatic* at all. All that crap is the for tv part of both VS and CM's shows. You want real dog training, find a trainer and watch them work -IN PERSON- with those dogs. It's really that simple.
> 
> I wish Sandy was still around. She would have had a hayday with this thread. She was such a great trainer and also had PROOF via dogs with things like... oh I dunno, OTCHs. Among many other things.


I miss her at times like this, too! And yeah, wow. I actually shook my head when I got to the post about how real behaviorists obviously aren't as good as Cesar because there's no drama when they train. Wow.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

^^^ agreed. I don't like to see drama when I work with my dogs, I work to avoid drama ... Drama is so exhausting :/ lol


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> If you want good dog training, you need to find people that have trained dogs to a very high degree and have actual proof of it.


Sorry, but in the 21st century, merely having a TV show implies expertise/wisdom in all areas of living. Ask a Kardasian if you don't believe me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I am amazed that in this day and age, some people still believe everything they see on TV... and on a reality show, no less. Like, I'm dumbfounded by that.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

From VS's own website:

"Myth: Positive reinforcement cannot be used on more severe behavioral cases such as aggressive dogs.

Fact: Actually, this is where positive reinforcement methods are most effective. Using positive reinforcement to treat ‘red zone’ dogs is not only a safer option, but a much more effective one. Aggression is a dog’s way of protecting himself and his resources, and is deeply rooted in fear for survival, fear of loss of comfort, a desire to repel a perceived threat and is a great way to control space and environment. Aggression is therefore deeply rooted in insecurity. Punish an insecure dog and you make that dog even more insecure even though it looks like he is behaving better. When a dominance trainer works with an aggressive dog and uses punitive techniques to get a dog to submit or ‘calm down,’ not only is that dog using an instinctive survival tool of ‘shut down’ to make the person stop whatever they are doing, a dominance trainer will then label the dog’s non-reaction and ‘calmness’ as a success. People love successes, especially when they are achieved quickly and they look very impressive, but those of us who really know what is going on shake our heads in dismay because not only has the dog been mishandled, the person has been misled into thinking that their dog has been ‘fixed’ or ‘cured’. The other reaction a dog has to being manhandled through dominance techniques is to lash out and bite the trainer or owner in anger, frustration and/or fear in order to get that person away from them. The person is hurt, the dog is then punished again, and this destructive cycle is repeated.

Aggression in dogs needs to be handled sensitively and with compassion. Aggressive dogs are under stress and this stress needs to be managed so that the dog can feel better while the trainer finds the cause of the aggressive response and then works with the dog and the owner to modify it. Far from using force or punitive techniques, a dog is guided by using positive techniques that help him see a perceived threat or potential loss of a valued resource in a different light. For some dogs this can be achieved relatively quickly but for others it can take a while, which is why it is important to see every dog and every situation as unique. Positive reinforcement is the best philosophy to use in these cases but there are many methods within this one philosophy that can be used, making positive reinforcement a much safer and more reliable method to use on even ‘red zone’ dogs."

I think she explains it quite nicely. From Animal Plant's website, this is Victoria's top ten most difficult cases. Several deal with resource aggression or dog aggression. Particularly #10 Sydney, #8 Bella, #4 Peanut Butter, and #2 Cooper.

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows/its-me-or-the-dog/videos/its-me-or-dog-difficult-dogs.htm


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Oh I'm not lol, people are surprisingly gullible ... Even in the 21 century


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think a LOT of it is that people do not want to have to work for anything. Reading a book, or several, and evaluating different methods takes time and a certain amount of dedication. For the majority of people, it is far easier to watch a tv show than do that work. For many, even just watching that tv show is a big step forward from what they would normally do, which is just do whatever they saw growing up.

This forum, and most internet based discussions in general, is only a tiny subset of dog owners in general. Of that, it is likely the people who are most dedicated to their dogs and therefore more likely to be educated about their dogs, that choose to spend their free time on a forum like this. So, the opinions and perspectives you see here are likely to be only a tiny subset of the general dog owning population.


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## blackhwk401 (May 2, 2013)

Here's the thing, positive reinforcement is a good tool to use for teaching tricks and that's about it. To understand an effective way to train your dog, you will need to understand the dogs mind. Cesar Millan delves into the mind and mentality of the species to understand it, and how to better train the animal. Positive reinforcement aims to break down the dogs "ingrained" behavior that has been instilled in them for billions of years, in a matter of minutes. Sure you may get results and even have a "good" dog, but most dog bites and attacks that happen from seemingly "well behaved" dog typically are trained using positive reinforcement. Setting all of that aside, now lets look at Cesar's method. He believes in "pack leaders", considering that dogs (wolves) are pack animals, this makes sense. What we perceive as cruel, and wrong, happens everyday in the wild. In fact its happening in your house right now. See dogs, being the pack animals that they are, vie for leadership and direction, if you cannot provide that then they will for you (just like in a pack). As a leader they may have minor quirks about them that you find funny, annoying, weird, or you may not even notice or understand at all. These things can be manifestations of what they believe a pack leader must do, like bark every time the doorbell rings, or walk in front of you while on a leash. While not every dog does this there are many that do, and all that do are where not trained using the Cesar method. The Cesar method takes all of what it is to be a dog and in a dog pack, and makes it available for you to use as a tool to better train your dog. Ultimately in the end it is up to you on what you chose, remember what we perceive as pain and discomfort, in the Cesar method, isn't its just the dog not willing to let go of being the leader. We are in an extraordinary time where we as a species have a better understanding of species and how they work, thus we developing newer ways to train these species for ourselves. Not even 100 years ago we believed that the only way to get a horse to move was to use spurs if we are mounted, and whips if it where drawing a cart, now we realized all you need to do is nudge the horse in the hind legs to get them to move. That's just one example of what we have learned about animals and how to better train them. It's your choice and I respect it either way, but don't look down on me or anyone else if they chose the opposite. And yes I trained my dogs using the Cesar method, and 2 of my dogs where dog aggressive, and are now best friends because they realize that I'm the pack leader.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

blackhwk401 said:


> Here's the thing, positive reinforcement is a good tool to use for teaching tricks and that's about it.


I didn't even need to read the rest of your post, because anyone who says something like that does not understand what positive reinforcement is, and therefore cannot make a compelling argument against it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Here's the thing, positive reinforcement is a good tool to use for teaching tricks and that's about it


This is so incredibly laughably false.



> in the Cesar method, isn't its just the dog not willing to let go of being the leader.


This ludicrous statement insinuates that EVERYTHING a dog does then is because it wants to be the leader. How incredibly archaic


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Ah, what the hell, I'm bored right now, so.



blackhwk401 said:


> To understand an effective way to train your dog, you will need to understand the dogs mind.


Read _The Other End of the Leash_ by Patricia McConnell and/or _The Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson, and then we can talk about dogs' minds.



> Positive reinforcement aims to break down the dogs "ingrained" behavior that has been instilled in them for billions of years, in a matter of minutes.


Another example that proves that you don't understand positive reinforcement. When you train positively, you are actually drawing on a dog's ingrained opportunistic tendencies (dogs do what works to get them what they want). 



> Sure you may get results and even have a "good" dog, but most dog bites and attacks that happen from seemingly "well behaved" dog typically are trained using positive reinforcement.


Pleeeeeease cite your sources on this. Please find me even one reputable source that claims this. I would love to read it.



> Setting all of that aside, now lets look at Cesar's method. He believes in "pack leaders", considering that dogs (wolves) are pack animals, this makes sense. What we perceive as cruel, and wrong, happens everyday in the wild. See dogs, being the pack animals that they are, vie for leadership and direction, if you cannot provide that then they will for you (just like in a pack).


Actually, the question of whether or not dogs are pack animals is up for debate (feral dogs don't really form packs -- here's one article, and here's another). It's also been many, MANY years since dogs were wolves, and they don't have a lot in common anymore. Finally, and most importantly, all of this "alpha" nonsense comes from old studies done more than 40 years ago on packs of unrelated, captive wolves. In reality, wild wolf packs are family units, with the parents as natural leaders. Their offspring are not in competition to take over as alpha. In addition, wolves don't pin each other; a wolf flips onto its back voluntarily. And dogs aren't stupid enough to view humans as hairless bipedal dogs anyway, so they don't understand "alpha rolling" or a finger-jab "bite" to the neck.

You can read what one of the best wolf experts around, David Mech, says about alphas (and how he was originally wrong about them) here, and there are a couple of great pages about how the alpha stuff has been disproved here and here.



> These things can be manifestations of what they believe a pack leader must do, like bark every time the doorbell rings, or walk in front of you while on a leash.


As esteemed behaviorist Ian Dunbar says, things like this have nothing to do with how a dog perceives you.



> We are in an extraordinary time where we as a species have a better understanding of species and how they work


I agree with this, which is precisely why I disagree with Cesar's methods -- they are VERY old-school and ignore more than 40 years of better research. They also ignore the opinion of real behaviorists, people who have devoted their lives to studying animals, and they ignore the YEARS of experience of zookeepers and trainers who have trained everything from elephants to hyenas to whales using positive methods.



> It's your choice and I respect it either way, but don't look down on me or anyone else if they chose the opposite.


I wouldn't say I "look down on" people who use Cesar's methods -- I used to use very similar methods myself. Many DF posters who I respect also used to use Cesar-esque methods. I do, however, look down on people who refuse to be educated, and who attempt to argue against something they don't understand. 

(And I'm not saying that anyone who disagrees with me is uneducated -- I'm saying that if someone is making statements about how positive training isn't natural or that it's only successful for teaching tricks, they _obviously_ have not learned anything about it, and are therefore not educated on the subject.)

Read some books that have been written in the past 10-20 years (and not by Cesar Millan), and then we can have a real debate.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

blackhwk401 said:


> Here's the thing, positive reinforcement is a good tool to use for teaching tricks and that's about it.


1. This is ridiculous.

2. Pretty much no one uses strictly positive reinforcement. 'Positive' trainers generally also use negative punishment. Some more and some less but I have never seen someone that avoids it altogether. 

Also have you seen some of the behaviors you can train via positive reinforcement? It goes well beyond just trick training.


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## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

blackhwk401 said:


> Here's the thing, positive reinforcement is a good tool to use for teaching tricks and that's about it. To understand an effective way to train your dog, you will need to understand the dogs mind. Cesar Millan delves into the mind and mentality of the species to understand it, and how to better train the animal. Positive reinforcement aims to break down the dogs "ingrained" behavior that has been instilled in them for billions of years, in a matter of minutes. Sure you may get results and even have a "good" dog, but most dog bites and attacks that happen from seemingly "well behaved" dog typically are trained using positive reinforcement. Setting all of that aside, now lets look at Cesar's method. He believes in "pack leaders", considering that dogs (wolves) are pack animals, this makes sense. What we perceive as cruel, and wrong, happens everyday in the wild. In fact its happening in your house right now. See dogs, being the pack animals that they are, vie for leadership and direction, if you cannot provide that then they will for you (just like in a pack). As a leader they may have minor quirks about them that you find funny, annoying, weird, or you may not even notice or understand at all. These things can be manifestations of what they believe a pack leader must do, like bark every time the doorbell rings, or walk in front of you while on a leash. While not every dog does this there are many that do, and all that do are where not trained using the Cesar method. The Cesar method takes all of what it is to be a dog and in a dog pack, and makes it available for you to use as a tool to better train your dog. Ultimately in the end it is up to you on what you chose, remember what we perceive as pain and discomfort, in the Cesar method, isn't its just the dog not willing to let go of being the leader. We are in an extraordinary time where we as a species have a better understanding of species and how they work, thus we developing newer ways to train these species for ourselves. Not even 100 years ago we believed that the only way to get a horse to move was to use spurs if we are mounted, and whips if it where drawing a cart, now we realized all you need to do is nudge the horse in the hind legs to get them to move. That's just one example of what we have learned about animals and how to better train them. It's your choice and I respect it either way, but don't look down on me or anyone else if they chose the opposite. And yes I trained my dogs using the Cesar method, and 2 of my dogs where dog aggressive, and are now best friends because they realize that I'm the pack leader.


:clap2: Wow, thanks for that post. It has opened an entire new world for me. All this time I thought Dr Patricia McConnell, Dr Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson, Pamela Dennison, Karen Pryor, Turid Rugaas, Kathy Sado, Grisha Steward, Dr Karen London, David Meche, Nicole Wilde, and Emily Larlham knew what they were talking about, but you, in that one post, have destroyed them and their darn logic, experience, and scientific studies. :doh:

I respectfully submit that you may *not *know as much about dogs (and animal behavior) as you think.

Monty


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Monsteroyd said:


> :clap2: Wow, thanks for that post. It has opened an entire new world for me. All this time I thought Dr Patricia McConnell.....


It should be noted for the record that Dr. McConnell had not completely discounted the concept of canine dominance and the behavior issues resulting therefrom. I can quote her if you'd like.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It should be noted for the record that Dr. McConnell had not completely discounted the concept of canine dominance and the behavior issues resulting therefrom. I can quote her if you'd like.


I don't want to get this train wreck off-course, but ...
is there a general consensus here
that "dominant" behaviour(s) simply
do not exist in dogs (or people)???


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'll do it.



> The simple definition of ‘dominance,’ as the term is used by the general public is something like: “control or command over others.” However, (and this is a huge “however”) that is NOT the definition as the term is used by people who study animal behavior, the ones who first coined the term to describe a certain kind of social relationship in non-human animals. In ethological terms, “dominance” refers to “priority access to a preferred, limited resource“. In other words, if there’s only one really great table open at a restaurant, who is going to get it? You, or the famous actress standing beside you?





> Here’s what “dominance” ISN’T: It has nothing to do with decision-making about the actions of a group or one other individual. There is no relationship in the literature between who decides when to move on, where to go or what to do. Period. (Bookmark this point!)
> 
> It has nothing to do with “who’s in front.” (In prey animals, the ‘dominant’ member of the group is often found in the middle of the herd if the group is in an area that might be dangerous.)
> 
> It is not fixed and immutable: Who “has dominance” can vary in time (as one individual ages for example), in space (one individual can have it in one area and not another) and in context (perhaps one individual with dominance doesn’t like pork chops.) In some species it appears to be linear (as in chickens, for example, in which if A is over B, and B is over C, then A is always over C). In most social mammals, it is non-linear and much, much more fluid and complicated.





> But I will say here that the misuse of the term “dominance” in dog training is so pervasive that it causes ethologists like me to want to poke pencils in our eyes. The examples are endless: “Your dog won’t come when you call unless he accepts you as alpha!” (Uh, not relevant, see above.) “Teach your dog a “Dominance Down” and he’ll respect you in the morning!” (Uh, not relevant, see above….). I suspect that much of this comes from the two different definitions of dominance used by the biologists versus the general public. I also think, although I admit to just guessing, that our species loves the idea of control, and anything that suggests we can get it easily is seductive. Whatever the reason, the mis-use of the concept of “dominance” is pervasive.


https://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/the-concept-formerly-described-as-dominance



> THUS, MY ANSWER IS YES AND NO: Here’s what I meant by “YES, the concept of “dominance” is relevant to dogs, and NO I don’t think it is relevant”. I think the concept is relevant IF AND ONLY IF it is understood that it is merely a way of describing one aspect of the relationship between social individuals. And I think NO, because once you use the word “dominance” all other aspects of personality, context, and the complexity of social interaction seem to fly out the window.


http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/the-d-word-and-social-relationships-in-dogs



> IS THE ‘D’ WORD RELEVANT OR USEFUL when evaluating interactions between dogs? Well, here’s my answer at the moment: I almost never use the term “dominance” any more when talking about relationships between dogs. The term is so loaded and so mis-understood that it rarely feels useful in any way. However, and this is a big however, I still think that the evidence suggests that the concept of “social status” is relevant to domestic dogs. As in our own species, social status is interwoven with issues related to personality, context, reactivity, resource distribution, etc, etc, and is only one of many factors that influence and explain behavior. But as members of complicated and complex societies in which all the bells and whistles of social hierarchies are evident (visual displays, some dogs with unquestioned priority access to some resources, living in an environment with “clumped, high quality resources” etc.), it seems reasonable to argue that status is relevant, in varying degrees, to domestic dogs. That in no way takes away from the importance of different levels of desire, confidence or a lack of it, an individual’s charisma, an obsessive need to control the world in order to decrease anxiety, etc.
> 
> I suspect that part of the confusion about status (and the D word) is that people want it to mean too much. It’s simply a way of describing how others in a group view one individual, and how that one individual would like to be viewed in relation to others. This makes it a much more general term than “priority access to a resource.” One could get priority access because of one’s status in the group, but they are not the same thing. Make sense? Surely social status could only be relevant in complicated societies, in which individual animals have complex perceptions of the role of others in the group. Dogs and wolves appear to fit within that category, and in my mind their advanced sociality is one of the reasons that dogs and people have developed such profound social bonds. I also think this shared social structure is part of why the “dominance” model of training is so seductive. Not only is it sometimes successful (for a variety of reasons, as pointed out in the comments), but it plays to our inherent understanding of the power of social status within our own species’ interactions.





> WITHOUT THE ‘D’ WORD, WHAT DO WE CALL DOGS who greet all other dogs tail up, head up, body elevated? Who stare hard and stiff-bodied at another dog over a bone on the ground? Confident? Rude? On Offense? Several of you have asked great questions about how to describe different types of dogs, and I think therein lies one of the problems. The word “dominant” provides a short, handy way of describing a particular way of behaving around others, and we are all hard-wired to try to find terms that allow our brains to sort the world into categories. But again, that word is so loaded and defined differently by the general public) that I think it is best avoided. That’s why I am more comfortable talking about “high status” dogs or “status-seeking” dogs if it seems relevant to the conversation.


http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/dogs-dominance-whats-a-person-to-do

All of the above were about dogs seeking status among their own species. The below talks about dogs and humans.



> I’ll start with the bottom line. I don’t use the word “dominance” when talking to people about training their dogs. There’s just no profit in it. Even given that dominance is about “priority access” and “social freedom,” but not about how to get it, I still see nothing but the potential for confusion and misuse. Given that in general parlance dominance means “total control,” and that it is so often it is equated with force (completely inappropriately), I avoid the term as if it were toxic. Which is exactly what I think it can be in this context.





> Personally, I do suspect that there are some aspects of social hierarchy that relate to our relationship with our dogs. However, I also think it is exceptionally complicated and easily misunderstood. I think we have a lot to learn about how dogs perceive us, and how they categorize us in relation to other dogs. We clearly are not dogs to them, but then… we clearly are members of their ‘pack.’ I have no definitive answers to this question, but I love pondering the question. It’s a little like thinking about how many stars there are in the sky….
> 
> Soon I am going to write about another aspect of our relationship with dogs that I think is important, and that’s the concept of “leadership.” I know that some of you will disagree, but I truly believe that because dogs are so completely dependent upon us, they are happier and more secure if their humans exemplify the best of what we think of as being a good leader. You know: the person everyone wants to stand beside, and automatically wants to be chair of the committee even though he or she never volunteers for it. I talk about being a “benevolent leader” in some of my writings, although I deeply regret that even the term “leader” has been co-opted by some to be equated with “dominance.” I don’t think it is, any more than good parents or good teachers are ‘dominant.”


http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/dog-training-and-the-d-word

All four entries are worth a read.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> I'll do it...



When she speaks of being,
"_more comfortable talking about 
“high status” dogs or “status-seeking” dogs 
if it seems relevant to the conversation_",
although one cannot dispute her comfort, or lack thereof,
IMO "dominant behaviour" often has more to do with 
gaining control over a given situation, 
rather than the seeking of "status".

Having said that, for the most part ...
well-written and well-received. 

Thanks, Cran.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

> Here's the thing, positive reinforcement is a good tool to use for teaching tricks and that's about it.


I've been really, really wanting to use this image on the forums.. but I can't find a good excuse.. until now!


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## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

LOL - I love that gif! It is just how I feel. 

Monty


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I've been really, really wanting to use this image on the forums.. but I can't find a good excuse.. until now!


Sums up how I feel too lol.

Why did I get into positive reinforcement training? Because of my leash reactive foster (you could definitely call her "aggressive"). Because the whole dominance thing never worked with her, even when working with a "professional trainer".

So yeah... um. You can definitely use r+ for behavior modification...


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

prntmkr said:


> On a positive note now,
> what I really like about C.M. is, what I see as,
> universal fundamentals of his core philosophy:
> - *be calm*
> ...




I agree with that. If I had to chose, I would chose Cesar Milan to walk my dogs. I can't roller blade very well anymore and my dogs would love the attention. I can't stand Victoria Stillwell on any level, just can't stand her. Cesar wouldn't need to dominate my dogs as they are trained and social. I think he truly loves dogs and though he may do things I wouldn't ever consider, I would trust him to walk my dogs. If Victoria showed up on my porch, I wouldn't ask her in.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

blackhwk401 said:


> Here's the thing, positive reinforcement is a good tool to use for teaching tricks and that's about it.


Crap, I better tell my dog reactive dog that she didn't actually blossom from a dog who was completely obsessed with other dogs in class to a dog who can calmly hold a down-stay offering me attention while other dogs walk right behind her by using positive reinforcement. Or that she didn't transform from a dog who was completely terrified of having her feet handled into a dog whose nails I can now get trimmed without drugging the crap out of her by using positive reinforcement. Or my anxious, resource guardy dog that he does not, in fact, now enjoy the company of his housemate dog he previously attacked thanks to positive reinforcement. 

They're going to be so disappointed.  I think they like things better the way they are now.



> To understand an effective way to train your dog, you will need to understand the dogs mind.


No, to understand an effective way to train your dog, you will need to understand how dogs learn things and how to read individual dogs. Both of which IMO CM is pretty weak at.


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## AmandaN (Apr 15, 2013)

Stilwell, if I had to pick. I much prefer trainers who fully grasp PR and the dog's mind like Emily Larlham (sp?), Patricia McConnell, ect.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> I didn't even need to read the rest of your post, because anyone who says something like that does not understand what positive reinforcement is, and therefore cannot make a compelling argument against it.


She lost me at "100 years ago we used to use whips on horses" in the racing industry we STILL use "whips" on race horses mostly for cueing in the race when "hand riding" (where the jockey uses the position & motion of his hands to motivate the horse) isn't cutting it .BUT you NEVER see horse coming back with welts/whip marks because there is a regulation on how hard they can be hit & how many times in a row. 

I also still ride my pony horse with spurs, not because it's abusive ... Because he is really really lazy & I need to sometimes go after then a walk hahaha.

@blackhwk401 forgive me for being blunt but it's clear that you know little about dogs OR horses.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Crantastic: good job on the P. McC. quotes. I think she has it about right. Dominance exists but it is only a factor (not THE factor) in the human-dog relationship. My problem with Stillwell is that she is a screeching harridan who doesn't even follow her own philosophy. She's got a bunch of awards (for basically promoting a party line) but what, training wise, has she actually done? 

My problems with Milan are that he "solves" discrete behavior problems, and I consider that approach to be totally asinine in the vast majority of cases. Train your dog completely and most behavior problems evaporate as if by magic. His philosoppy is all about what's going on inside the dog's head. I closely watch a dog for signs of physical/mental stress, but the dog needs to concern himself with what I want and what I'm thinking. Why? Because I'm the human and he's the freakin' dog

Also, the aforementioned individuals are TV stars more than anything else. Their primary objective is to get people to.watch so products can be pitched to them. In order to keep people interested, much drama is manufactured. Dog training is mostly about as exciting as watching paint dry. It can get exciting but that often means you screwed something up.

That's my 2 cents. Don't spend it all in one place.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, I prefer Victoria to Cesar and I like that she's learning more about training and behavior all the time, but I wouldn't recommend either to someone who asked me about dog behavior. There are just so many much better books and blogs out there by people like McConnell and Dunbar and Donaldson.

If I had to recommend one of the TV shows to someone, it'd be Victoria's, just because if people use her techniques, they won't potentially ruin their relationship with their dog.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

AmandaN said:


> Stilwell, if I had to pick. I much prefer trainers who fully grasp PR and the dog's mind like Emily Larlham (sp?), Patricia McConnell, ect.


I love Patricia McConnell. She is so sweet and down to earth. She, I would totally have trusted with my dogs had I actually ever needed any help with any of them. She is really funny too.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Patricia McConnell is probably my favorite. She's incredibly knowledgeable about dogs, humans, and other animals, and she writes about things in a way that anyone can understand. I loved her book _The Other End of the Leash_, and I like her blog a lot, too. She just put up an entry about resource guarding which I know I'll be linking people to in the future -- it was hard to find good writeups that explained how to fix RGing before.

(Also, I know the poster who didn't believe that McConnell has a lot of experience with "troubled" dogs is long gone, but she says in that entry that she has worked with hundreds, maybe thousands, of resource guarders alone.)


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I recommended McConnell to someone. A puppy owner who was having fear issues with a Schnauzer puppy and she lived in Madison. I told owner about how lucky she was that she lived in Madison area because of this wonderful trainer who lived up there. Owner signs up for class and owner e-mails and says all they do in that class is feed the dogs. She was from the old time of choke chains and 'good dog' was the reward. She was worried her dog would get fat. Told Schnauzer owner give it time, and see what happens. Owner stuck with the class and the puppy now as dog is a wonderful well behaved dog. I just have to chuckle because this owner seemed so out of wits that how can her dog learn anything if all they are doing is feeding the dog. She finally understood the concept by the end of the training classes.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

luv mi pets said:


> I recommended McConnell to someone. A puppy owner who was having fear issues with a Schnauzer puppy and she lived in Madison. I told owner about how lucky she was that she lived in Madison area because of this wonderful trainer who lived up there. Owner signs up for class and owner e-mails and says all they do in that class is feed the dogs. She was from the old time of choke chains and 'good dog' was the reward. She was worried her dog would get fat. Told Schnauzer owner give it time, and see what happens. Owner stuck with the class and the puppy now as dog is a wonderful well behaved dog. I just have to chuckle because this owner seemed so out of wits that how can her dog learn anything if all they are doing is feeding the dog. She finally understood the concept by the end of the training classes.


This reminded me of what happened at work the other day. The lady who runs the doggy daycare is working on enrolling in a pretty good dog trainer school and is all about positive reinforcement. Well, this lady came in with this adorable aussie puppy for first shots, and the trainer came out to talk to her, with one of those food egg puzzle things and a kong. She was trying to get the owner (Who seemed like she had no idea what she was about to get into with a puppy, let alone an Aussie!) to know about the food puzzles and kongs and such, and also pushed her puppy pre school class on her for socialization. Owner seemed completely uninterested in educating herself and claimed she needed to "do more research first".

Well... the last time an owner decided to ignore the trainer's advice on PR tools and classes... it turned into a 8 month old GSD puppy who had to bed held down and muzzled just to get a pre med for her spay... Yep. Completely unsocialized, bit someone in the clinic, probably going to end up getting put down at a young age because her owners were idiots...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

luv mi pets said:


> I recommended McConnell to someone. A puppy owner who was having fear issues with a Schnauzer puppy and she lived in Madison. I told owner about how lucky she was that she lived in Madison area because of this wonderful trainer who lived up there. Owner signs up for class and owner e-mails and says all they do in that class is feed the dogs. She was from the old time of choke chains and 'good dog' was the reward. She was worried her dog would get fat. Told Schnauzer owner give it time, and see what happens. Owner stuck with the class and the puppy now as dog is a wonderful well behaved dog. I just have to chuckle because this owner seemed so out of wits that how can her dog learn anything if all they are doing is feeding the dog. She finally understood the concept by the end of the training classes.


Oh, man. I was in a class once with Maisy, an "agility for fun" class so there was a lot of waiting around for your turn which is really hard for her. She's very obsessive about and can be reactive to other dogs. So I use that time to practice marking and rewarding calm sit or down stays and offered attention from her. In that kind of environment, I use a pretty high rate of reward but at the same time I acknowledge that to other people it probably looks like she isn't doing much and just getting a lot of food for it. 

The last class session, another guy's dog was mugging him for treats, and he says real loud "No, Dog, you need to DO SOMETHING to WORK for YOUR treats." I was so annoyed on Maisy's behalf because she WAS working SO HARD even though he didn't realize it or know what her behavior was like before, how hard what she was doing actually was for her, and how much progress she had made to that point. And of course he waits until the last class is almost over to get his dig in, so I didn't really have the time to and wasn't especially inclined to explain what I was doing to him. I just kept marking and rewarding her. 

In retrospect I wish someone had been around to mark and reward me holding a calm sit/stay and not snarking back. 'Cause that's real hard work for me, too.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Oh, man. I was in a class once with Maisy, an "agility for fun" class so there was a lot of waiting around for your turn which is really hard for her. She's very obsessive about and can be reactive to other dogs. So I use that time to practice marking and rewarding calm sit or down stays and offered attention from her. In that kind of environment, I use a pretty high rate of reward but at the same time I acknowledge that to other people it probably looks like she isn't doing much and just getting a lot of food for it.
> 
> The last class session, another guy's dog was mugging him for treats, and he says real loud "No, Dog, you need to DO SOMETHING to WORK for YOUR treats." I was so annoyed on Maisy's behalf because she WAS working SO HARD even though he didn't realize it or know what her behavior was like before, how hard what she was doing actually was for her, and how much progress she had made to that point. And of course he waits until the last class is almost over to get his dig in, so I didn't really have the time to and wasn't especially inclined to explain what I was doing to him. I just kept marking and rewarding her.
> 
> In retrospect I wish someone had been around to mark and reward me holding a calm sit/stay and not snarking back. 'Cause that's real hard work for me, too.


Staying calm in the face of distractions is incredibly hard. Keeping quiet in the face of stupidity is even harder  (pretty much describes most of my days)


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Oh, man. I was in a class once with Maisy, an "agility for fun" class so there was a lot of waiting around for your turn which is really hard for her. She's very obsessive about and can be reactive to other dogs. So I use that time to practice marking and rewarding calm sit or down stays and offered attention from her. In that kind of environment, I use a pretty high rate of reward but at the same time I acknowledge that to other people it probably looks like she isn't doing much and just getting a lot of food for it.
> 
> The last class session, another guy's dog was mugging him for treats, and he says real loud "No, Dog, you need to DO SOMETHING to WORK for YOUR treats." I was so annoyed on Maisy's behalf because she WAS working SO HARD even though he didn't realize it or know what her behavior was like before, how hard what she was doing actually was for her, and how much progress she had made to that point. And of course he waits until the last class is almost over to get his dig in, so I didn't really have the time to and wasn't especially inclined to explain what I was doing to him. I just kept marking and rewarding her.
> 
> In retrospect I wish someone had been around to mark and reward me holding a calm sit/stay and not snarking back. 'Cause that's real hard work for me, too.


Jubel can't settle in classes and wait his turn calmly. He expects to be engaged 90% of the class in something. So to the casual on looker it may look like I'm just stuffing him full of treats during class as well. I do make him "do something" for the treats and I'm working on increasing the duration between treating but it's slow progress. Obedience classes aren't too bad but classes like nosework or agility where you have to wait your turn he's inpatient.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Sassafras, that's a shame. Our obedience instructor actually encourages people to so exactly what you're doing, and points out people in class who are already doing it correctly as an example. 

Watson is like Jubel and needs a lot of engagement in classes. I'm trying to get him more to a point where he can settle without me having to engage with him all the time, but it's hard.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, the _instructor_ was on board with it. But she would be working with whoever's turn it was at the time, not right with those of us who were waiting.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I meant it was a shame that the guy next to you was a PITA about it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, gotcha. Yea, and that he waited until almost the end of the last class to say anything when it had clearly been bugging him all along. I don't mind people asking questions about what I'm doing, because it did kind of look like we were doing... nothing. But I ain't got time to explain what I'm doing if you're going to be that way about it, dude.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Oh, gotcha. Yea, and that he waited until almost the end of the last class to say anything when it had clearly been bugging him all along. I don't mind people asking questions about what I'm doing, because it did kind of look like we were doing... nothing. But I ain't got time to explain what I'm doing if you're going to be that way about it, dude.


That's why I liked that my instructor explained it to everyone, so nobody is sitting on the sidelines judging others for feeding their crazy dogs. Though of course a trainer would be more likely to explain it in a level 2 obedience class vs some other type of class.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Oh, gotcha. Yea, and that he waited until almost the end of the last class to say anything when it had clearly been bugging him all along. I don't mind people asking questions about what I'm doing, because it did kind of look like we were doing... nothing. But I ain't got time to explain what I'm doing if you're going to be that way about it, dude.


Wait I don't understand ... Was he having an issue with her mugging you for your treats? Or was she mugging him for his treats? Or was his dog mugging him for his treats? I am confused? Lol


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> Wait I don't understand ... Was he having an issue with her mugging you for your treats? Or was she mugging him for his treats? Or was his dog mugging him for his treats? I am confused? Lol


He assumed I was just constantly feeding Maisy treats for no reason, which for some reason bothered him, and when his dog mugged him for treats he used the opportunity to make a snide remark to that effect.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

sassafras said:


> He assumed I was just constantly feeding Maisy treats for no reason, which for some reason bothered him, and when his dog mugged him for treats he used the opportunity to make a snide remark to that effect.


Oh I understand now. Sorry for the confusion


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## brakel (Jun 14, 2013)

Wow, what a great discussion! I don't have enough knowledge to have an opinion about who is better but I want to thank everyone that provided links for more reading. Although I never watched Dog Whisperer for anything other than entertainment, it would have never occurred to me that the premise of the pack leader might be flawed. I would never have tried his "red zone" techniques anyway because I don't have any training but now for sure I will just take away from the show his lessons on exercise and calm owner behavior.

We just adopted our three year old dog a week ago so we're still just discovering what she's like. No matter what issues she might have we will be seeking professional training help and not relying on tv shows to help us!


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

brakel said:


> Wow, what a great discussion! I don't have enough knowledge to have an opinion about who is better but I want to thank everyone that provided links for more reading. Although I never watched Dog Whisperer for anything other than entertainment, it would have never occurred to me that the premise of the pack leader might be flawed. I would never have tried his "red zone" techniques anyway because I don't have any training but now for sure I will just take away from the show his lessons on exercise and calm owner behavior.
> 
> We just adopted our three year old dog a week ago so we're still just discovering what she's like. No matter what issues she might have *we will be seeking professional training help and not relying on tv shows *to help us!


Congrats on the new dog! And the right attitude 

This forum opened up my eyes on many things concerning dogs, including CM. I used to be on his bandwagon and will have to do some explaining to my childhood dog :/. I'm not sure if anyone ever explicitly said this, but putting this out there for those lurking/new: the point of watching Dog Whisperer muted is so you can focus in on the dogs' body language without the sound to distract you. That is what other's were getting at and cisco failed to understand. Though you may want to look up "calming signals, turid rugaas" to get the full intended effect of you don't know of it yet.


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## Furfinsnfeathers (Jun 5, 2013)

I don't watch either for the most part. I have watched and I find them both slightly annoying, although Milan's rollerblading with dogs that need exercise...does amuse me. Once Stillwell shows up in black leather like something out of a Shades of Grey story wannabe...I'm out. 

Give me a dog, a leash and some freeze dried liver. I've never had a dog be out of control or obnoxious to the point of my having to call in a game show host. (And I've had dogs for, let's just say...a long time.


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## Lupen (Jun 17, 2013)

Victoria by far. I don't really like either, I'd rather find a different more proffessional trainer if I ended up needing one. But between these two? It should be obvious.

I hate Ceasar with a passion. His alpha or dominant training techniques, which have been proven time and time again to be harmful and outdated, just piss me off. Of course a dog is going to calm down and not pull when you've physically and emotionally shut it down.


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## brakel (Jun 14, 2013)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Congrats on the new dog! And the right attitude
> 
> This forum opened up my eyes on many things concerning dogs, including CM. I used to be on his bandwagon and will have to do some explaining to my childhood dog :/. I'm not sure if anyone ever explicitly said this, but putting this out there for those lurking/new: the point of watching Dog Whisperer muted is so you can focus in on the dogs' body language without the sound to distract you. That is what other's were getting at and cisco failed to understand. Though you may want to look up "calming signals, turid rugaas" to get the full intended effect of you don't know of it yet.


Thanks! I realize that we did a lot of things wrong with my childhood dog but one thing we did right was lots of exercise! There were 6 kids in my family so we pretty much tired that dog out everyday.


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## Glo (May 11, 2013)

Gina_1978 said:


> I am a *HUGE* Cesar Millan fan.I dont follow what he does,because I havent ever needed to (never met a dog like the ones he deals with),but I LOVE his show and to watch him work and see all the dogs he gets to work with.
> I am a HUGE huge fan
> 
> As for Victoria Stilwell..I just think she´s a Cesar Millan wannabe lol.I have seen her show (downloaded them all) and I dont think much of her at all.Anyone who wears 2 inches of make up,designer clothes and high heels when working with animals just can´t be taken seriously if you ask me
> ...


Gina or anyone here, do you know how can I get in contact with Cesar Millan? I need him urgent!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

As someone who's familiar with your issues, Glo, I can assure you that Cesar Millan is absolutely the last person you need.


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