# Pulling on the lead....



## SaintHarris (Mar 21, 2012)

Hi all!

I have a 19th month old Labrador cross Hound called Bruno, whom I've had for about a month now. He's a very curious dog and loves sniffing at everything, especially when walking. He's almost constantly pulling on the lead or completely ignoring me and sniffing around with his nose to the ground. 

I'm currently trying to stop EVERY time he pulls and get his attention to come to my side and then reward with a treat when he walks for that split second next to me. The problem is, within 2 or 3 seconds he's got his nose to the ground and completely oblivious to me, or somethings caught his eye and he's fixed on it. I've been doing this method for about 2 weeks now and not really noticing any significant improvement, although some days are better than others. Am I doing something wrong or is this normal? Must I stop all sniffing during walking? I'm using a normal clip-on lead, I've tried a slip lead but it made no difference and personally I'm not a fan of them. Also tried a Halti, which worked better, but I find this a lazy solution as I want to be able to just use a normal lead. 

Please help!

Thanks.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Are you trying to get him to heel or are you trying to get him to walk with a loose leash?


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## SaintHarris (Mar 21, 2012)

Loose leash, sorry.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I think you've got the right idea. You might need to find a higher value treat for him and dole it out more frequently, but he doesn't need to have his attention 100% on you all the time unless you really are training heeling. It's okay if he wants to sniff but you need to be setting the pace so he can't pull to get ahead and he can't fall behind but it's okay if he walks in a few feet radius around you (on whatever side you're holding the leash). If he pulls ahead, stop and wait for the leash to go slack. He doesn't go anywhere if he pulls. If he falls behind sniffing just call him to come with you and reward for keeping pace. That's what has worked best for me. If it's a matter of him being too strong and pulling you could try a front clip harness while you train him to walk loose leash.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHwu...DvjVQa1PpcFORisFDwDzm9nQDjx62L3uyDr2izF_kiXw=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voW2...DvjVQa1PpcFORisFDwDzm9hJKJeHXx0bHBtkkaZBiZ04=

It can take a lot of practice for dogs to understand what you want from them as far as walking on the leash. Don't give up


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## SaintHarris (Mar 21, 2012)

Hey, thanks for your advice!

It's just so frustrating as after I stop he still just ignores me. Should I call him to my side and reward then? Maybe I'm also running too fast and should slow the pace a little. If I used the Halti, and sucessfully made him walk loose leash, would he then resort to pulling again when the normal lead is used? How long generally (I know all dogs are different) shouyld this training take? Are we talking months? years?

Thanks.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

A couple of other things you can try:
- a back away: when he pulls, you stop, then back up, walking backwards a few paces yourself. That should get him to come back toward you enough to get the leash slack, praise, and continue walking forward. That way, you don't have to stand there while he sniffs at whatever he's sniffing at.
- turn around and walk five or so steps in the opposite direction. This will likely do the same thing, get him to follow you, and therefore the leash slackens. When you have a loose leash you can turn back and go in the original direction.

Another thing to think of is that it might help to find another way to burn of some of his energy for the time being, because training loose leash walking often takes lots of stopping and waiting for him to let the leash slacken again, and that means the walks don't burn much energy. So, if you can take him to a large fenced in area, and let him run and play fetch, etc, that can help make up for the energy his walks aren't burning.

When he gets the loose leash walking down, then the walks will start being more productive.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Most people won't like this reply, but most people don't have hounds. I use leash corrections. Hounds are very different from other breeds. Most of the time you shouldn't discriminate but with hounds you must. It doesn't matter how high value the treat is or how many times you stop. Unfortunately a hound's nose cannot be conquered. I use a harness with hallie on a regular walk because we walk on a 25 ft leash.. this kind walk is for burning energy. However, after she explores and sniffs to her heart's content I break out the choke chain and the 6ft leash and we spend finish the walk with her by my side on a loose leash. If leash corrections are ever used they must be executed properly and at the appropriate time.


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## Eden & Mason (Mar 23, 2012)

I have two hounds and totally agree with Hallie. Our older girl has a Halti and since we've been using it she is pretty good on a regular collar & lead, sometimes needs a refresher with it. Our 5 month old is a whole different story. He's coming into his nose and there is no stopping him once he's on a scent, treating and stopping only work for that second your doing it. We've tried the Halti on him but he fights it and makes the walk worse so we are now considering a choke chain for our in town walks. We take them out to the 'farms' (both our parents have lots of property) to run and track, our older girl is very good off leash and we are working with our young guy (he gets a long lead and harness). I'm also considering the Halti thats on their chests (as Mason, the puppy, freaks with the Halti on his face), so we'll see. Our biggest problem is we live on a busy road with no proper sidewalks (but lucky enough to have a fully fenced big backyard) so them respecting the leash is a big thing for us. 

My advice... if you can take him somewhere to let him use his natural talent (his nose!) and to expell some of that engery. Our guys are much more willing to walk 'nicely' if they have had a good run/track in before hand. Also, how often are you walking him? Our 5 month old goes twice a day 40 mins each time (most days when we can fit two in) and will also get a at least once a week at the farm (he's out almost all day).


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Hallie said:


> Most people won't like this reply, but most people don't have hounds. I use leash corrections. Hounds are very different from other breeds. Most of the time you shouldn't discriminate but with hounds you must. It doesn't matter how high value the treat is or how many times you stop. Unfortunately a hound's nose cannot be conquered. I use a harness with hallie on a regular walk because we walk on a 25 ft leash.. this kind walk is for burning energy. However, after she explores and sniffs to her heart's content I break out the choke chain and the 6ft leash and we spend finish the walk with her by my side on a loose leash. If leash corrections are ever used they must be executed properly and at the appropriate time.



In my experience, there have always been alternative methods to leash corrections. It just requires more creativity, ingenuity, setup, and forethought. Just an idea, but if the hound is fixated on scent, you don't need treats, because the scent is the reward.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Hallie said:


> Unfortunately a hound's nose cannot be conquered.


LOL that's funny! and at least somewhat true, but ....

IME .. the quickest route to get to a hound's brain, is to bypass the ole sniffer and go straight through the stomach.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Google "Loose Leash" and "Silky Leash" for some Youtube videos.

I agree that a Lab x Hound might always have his nose in the ground. Maybe you could distract him away from that distraction with something smelly like liver treats or boiled chicken. If so, then you can use a modified 'clicker' training suggested by Turid Rugaas:
1. In a boring area, click your tongue (or make a small noise with your mouth).
2. When he looks at you, let him sniff a tiny treat (size of a dime or smaller), then give it to him. Repeat for 10 min. Do this for about 3 days.
3. When you walk and you see his attention drift, click your tongue, and treat. Continue as needed.
4. Occasionally give him 5 - 10 min. of free time to sniff. 

You don't use a conventional clicker, because you purposely don't want to be precise, and because your clicker in the distraction in this case, not a marker or secondary reinforcer.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

qingcong said:


> In my experience, there have always been alternative methods to leash corrections. It just requires more creativity, ingenuity, setup, and forethought. Just an idea, but if the hound is fixated on scent, you don't need treats, because the scent is the reward.


If you use scent as a reward it will make it all worse. When using treats as a reward the dog will be fixated on the treat anticipating getting the treat as a reward. If the dog does this with scent it will be bad. I ask Hallie to do a sit stay while walking and once she sits I say my release word, at which point her reward becomes the scent because she is free to pull and sniff to her heart's delight.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Hallie said:


> If you use scent as a reward it will make it all worse. When using treats as a reward the dog will be fixated on the treat anticipating getting the treat as a reward. If the dog does this with scent it will be bad. I ask Hallie to do a sit stay while walking and once she sits I say my release word, at which point her reward becomes the scent because she is free to pull and sniff to her heart's delight.



I mean this respectfully - just because you personally have not found a way to solve the issue using reward methods does not mean that no reward based solution exists. I'm not saying I can do it easily or anything, just saying that you can't assume you have exhausted all possible solutions.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Hallie said:


> If you use scent as a reward it will make it all worse.


How?

Wally pulls ahead - I stop, preventing him from getting the scent. When he comes back to heel, I praise and move to the scent. Once there and if he's still in heel, I praise and let him sniff.

That didn't create a dog that pulls more. That created a dog that stays next to me because that's when I let him go sniff. Breaking heel makes me stop. Staying in heel gets to the scent. If I'm consistent in that and he wants to sniff, he's not going to choose the option that denies him getting to the scent.


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## L Kathryn (Feb 27, 2012)

If you ever want to walk off leash or be able to drop a leash to do a sit stay or whatever, you can't use scent as a reward *for hounds* because once they figure out - which won't take long because they are cunning - that dropped leash or no leash means unending reward, you are SOL. Correction in some manner, High quality treats (deer steak cut up into tiny pieces works great for my dogs), and Respect for owner are the only ways to win out over the nose IME.

Not that there isn't another way out there, but I've tried many ONLY positive methods without much success for hounds. 

OP: You can try teaching a 'look' command. Basically hold out a treat and as soon as the dog looks at you instead of the treat, give it to him. Repeat often and randomly. Move on to distractions for example, throw a toy or drop something. Once you have it down pat, use it for your walks. When he starts getting distracted, ask him for the look -try to ask for it before he gets ahead of you-. Refocusing him on you is the goal. Once he starts paying closer attention to you in hopes of more treats, change directions more. I teach my dogs 'left' and 'here' for turns so I don't have to yank on them or step on them to turn sharply.
Eventually you can start weaning him off the treats.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

L Kathryn said:


> If you ever want to walk off leash or be able to drop a leash to do a sit stay or whatever, you can't use scent as a reward *for hounds* because once they figure out - which won't take long because they are cunning - that dropped leash or no leash means unending reward, you are SOL.



I don't get it, that sounds like most dogs who have not been specifically trained in off-leash.

Most of what you guys describe as hound behaviors is stuff my dog does as well, only he's not called a hound.


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## L Kathryn (Feb 27, 2012)

Hounds are driven by their nose first and foremost. Many breeds are bred to work with and for humans. Hounds were bred specifically to follow their nose. Yes, they love people, but the nose is first. If you don't correct, you will never get the nose off the ground. If you let the nose be on the ground when they do what you want, they will forget that you exist.
Yes, most dogs will run off when not trained for being off leash, but most will return or not go very far before wondering where their people are *if they have a relationship with their person or people*. Hounds will not wonder until they find the origin or are tired of the scent and have been known to get lost or worse.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Aren't all dogs driven by scent? What difference does it make that it's a hound dog?


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

L Kathryn said:


> If you don't correct, you will never get the nose off the ground. If you let the nose be on the ground when they do what you want, they will forget that you exist.


I could say the same about huskies being let off the lead and allowed to run. I could say the same about sighthounds seeing a rabbit from meters away and chasing it down. You are dealing with a dog's innate instincts and yet people have managed to teach sighthounds very reliable recalls and teach Sibes to preform off leash. These feats were accomplished with a lot of hard work because training a less biddable breed (like a hound) requires a lot more ingenuity and creativity than training a border collie (in general). Saying "it's a hound, you have to correct them to get them to obey" is painting a lot of dogs with the same brush. Not only that, but saying "you can't use smelling as a reward for a hound" completely goes against what positive reinforcement is kind of about (giving dogs something they find pleasurable in order to increase the chances of a behavior occurring). What's more pleasurable to a hound than smelling? Right there you have a strong reinforcer and when you have something the dog wants or wants access to, you control the dog. 

Maybe I am missing something though?


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## L Kathryn (Feb 27, 2012)

qingcong said:


> Aren't all dogs driven by scent? What difference does it make that it's a hound dog?


I have already explained this.



Nil said:


> I could say the same about huskies being let off the lead and allowed to run. I could say the same about sighthounds seeing a rabbit from meters away and chasing it down. You are dealing with a dog's innate instincts and yet people have managed to teach sighthounds very reliable recalls and teach Sibes to preform off leash. These feats were accomplished with a lot of hard work because training a less biddable breed (like a hound) requires a lot more ingenuity and creativity than training a border collie (in general). Saying "it's a hound, you have to correct them to get them to obey" is painting a lot of dogs with the same brush. Not only that, but saying "you can't use smelling as a reward for a hound" completely goes against what positive reinforcement is kind of about (giving dogs something they find pleasurable in order to increase the chances of a behavior occurring). What's more pleasurable to a hound than smelling? Right there you have a strong reinforcer and when you have something the dog wants or wants access to, you control the dog.
> 
> Maybe I am missing something though?


Yes, I am generalizing because I was replying to generalizations based on a specific breed, not a specific incident within the breed or dog breeds in general. I live and train in rural areas, so perhaps that makes a difference as there are many deer and rabbits, etc for hounds to catch the scent of and follow. I already explained why scent was not a suitable reward for hounds when teaching off leash. Yes, with a lot of work you can get reliable off leash responses, but I have never heard of a successful hound recall without using corrections of some sort to accomplish it. If you have, then that is wonderful and I would love to know how it was done.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

L Kathryn said:


> I have already explained this.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am generalizing because I was replying to generalizations based on a specific breed, not a specific incident within the breed or dog breeds in general. I live and train in rural areas, so perhaps that makes a difference as there are many deer and rabbits, etc for hounds to catch the scent of and follow. *I already explained why scent was not a suitable reward for hounds when teaching off leash.* Yes, with a lot of work you can get reliable off leash responses, but I have never heard of a successful hound recall without using corrections of some sort to accomplish it. If you have, then that is wonderful and I would love to know how it was done.


You explained why it isn't "suitable" for you. But, as you said, you are "generalizing", and just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it CAN'T work for anyone. You state this as if your way/experience is the only way/experience. And, it's not.


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## stevej9 (Apr 7, 2012)

Hey Harris, try walking Bruno with the leash really short. Like grab up on the leash so short that he can't go in front of you. Hold it firmly. The maximum forward he can go is right next to you, otherwise he runs out of leash. He will pull like normal, but keep walking. You will be in the corner of his eye, and eventually he will understand that you lead the walks.

Then as he understands this and stops pulling, you can try loosening up on the leash. He may even want to walk behind you!

Look at this pic (her right hand): http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images20/DogWalking2.jpg

Try like that and hold it firmly.

Give it a shot, and let us know how it goes!


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## L Kathryn (Feb 27, 2012)

doxiemommy said:


> You explained why it isn't "suitable" for you. But, as you said, you are "generalizing", and just because it doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it CAN'T work for anyone. You state this as if your way/experience is the only way/experience. And, it's not.


Um, I did not state that it was the only way. Please read past the part you bolded.
"Yes, with a lot of work you can get reliable off leash responses, but I have never heard of a successful hound recall without using corrections of some sort to accomplish it. If you have, then that is wonderful and I would love to know how it was done."

As stated, if you know a positive only way to teach reliable off leash with scent-hounds, please share.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm not usually a huge fan of head collars, but in this case I think it's a good idea. If the dog constantly has the nose on the ground, you need to control the dog's head and prevent him from sniffing. You can teach him that sniffing it a privilege that he earns by walking nicely.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

stevej9 said:


> Hey Harris, try walking Bruno with the leash really short. Like grab up on the leash so short that he can't go in front of you. Hold it firmly. The maximum forward he can go is right next to you, otherwise he runs out of leash. He will pull like normal, but keep walking. You will be in the corner of his eye, and eventually he will understand that you lead the walks.
> 
> Then as he understands this and stops pulling, you can try loosening up on the leash. He may even want to walk behind you!




You do realize that this point of view is humanizing the dog right?


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

L Kathryn said:


> Um, I did not state that it was the only way. Please read past the part you bolded.
> "Yes, with a lot of work you can get reliable off leash responses, but I have never heard of a successful hound recall without using corrections of some sort to accomplish it. If you have, then that is wonderful and I would love to know how it was done."
> 
> As stated, if you know a positive only way to teach reliable off leash with scent-hounds, please share.


L KATHRYN: you are pretty new to the forum, so there is something you should realize. Most - though not all - of the people who post here are interested in "basic training" for their dog or puppy . They really aren't looking ahead to field training (or agility training or trailing or tracking or competition obedience or mushing or anything else of that sort). 

Not so surprising - very few dog owners ever get to do those things. But some of the recommendations would have a negative impact on those activities_ if the owner ever wanted to do them_. 

For just one example, there is a difference between a dog not doing LLW and pulling on a lead just because he wants to pull, and a dog pulling to follow a ground track or a trail. Hounds love to trail - it's what they were bred to do. Similarly, Labs love to follow a ground track. We would prefer that these dogs be taught not to pull randomly, and do LLW, but if we are interested in doing those other activities eventually, we also don't want to suppress the trailing or tracking behavior. 

It's a delicate balance and we really do have to be careful to stay in that balanced range _if that is our goal_. To continue with the same example, too often we see dogs that have difficulties trailing or tracking effectively because of the way they were trained for LLW. But on the other hand, if their owners never get to those activities, that won't matter.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

L Kathryn said:


> Um, I did not state that it was the only way. Please read past the part you bolded.
> "Yes, with a lot of work you can get reliable off leash responses, but I have never heard of a successful hound recall without using corrections of some sort to accomplish it. If you have, then that is wonderful and I would love to know how it was done."
> 
> As stated, if you know a positive only way to teach reliable off leash with scent-hounds, please share.


Maybe I should have been more obvious. My point is, many of your posts make black and white statements, like 
"If you ever want to be able to walk off leash or be able to drop a leash.....*you can't *use scent as a reward for hounds...."
"*You can't *use scent as a reward for hounds....."
"If you don't correct, *you'll never *get the nose off the ground..."
"I've already explained why scent is not a suitable reward...."

YET, after making these black and white statements, you go on to say there might possibly be other ways. This is a forum and what we post is our opinions, for the most part, but parts of your posts are stated as facts. As Poly stated, you're new, and perhaps should consider the fact that many people come here for advice in basics, and if you state things as FACTS, when they are not, they may take them as facts, and things stated as facts usually have more weight than an added comment that there MAY be other ways.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Hallie said:


> When using treats as a reward the dog will be fixated on the treat anticipating getting the treat as a reward.


ahhhhhh ... on the whispering wind.

Sometimes, THAT'S where the best answers are found.


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## L Kathryn (Feb 27, 2012)

Poly said:


> L KATHRYN: you are pretty new to the forum, so there is something you should realize. Most - though not all - of the people who post here are interested in "basic training" for their dog or puppy . They really aren't looking ahead to field training (or agility training or trailing or tracking or competition obedience or mushing or anything else of that sort).
> 
> Not so surprising - very few dog owners ever get to do those things. But some of the recommendations would have a negative impact on those activities_ if the owner ever wanted to do them_.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the clarification. I will try to be more basic in my answers 



doxiemommy said:


> Maybe I should have been more obvious. My point is, many of your posts make black and white statements, like
> "If you ever want to be able to walk off leash or be able to drop a leash.....*you can't *use scent as a reward for hounds...."
> "*You can't *use scent as a reward for hounds....."
> "If you don't correct, *you'll never *get the nose off the ground..."
> ...


You're right, I am relatively new to the forums and a few things I've noticed from simply reading through the threads is that people tend to gang up on others. I have a bad habit of jumping into the fray. Thank you for the feedback.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

L Kathryn said:


> Um, I did not state that it was the only way. Please read past the part you bolded.
> "Yes, with a lot of work you can get reliable off leash responses, but I have never heard of a successful hound recall without using corrections of some sort to accomplish it. If you have, then that is wonderful and I would love to know how it was done."
> 
> As stated, if you know a positive only way to teach reliable off leash with scent-hounds, please share.


I couldn't find a recall specifically, but I found these two. She used positive reinforcement to get this. She does Agility and Obedience with her Basset Hound and in both videos the dog looks happy, engaged, (to me it looks that way at least) and does not have his nose on the floor despite being outside. But all this proves, to some extent, is that positive reinforcement can work. Not that it will for every handler and every dog. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEE7yLAUwCc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWMrOjPr3S4




L Kathryn said:


> You're right, I am relatively new to the forums and a few things I've noticed from simply reading through the threads is that people tend to gang up on others. I have a bad habit of jumping into the fray. Thank you for the feedback.


The general problem that people have is that sure, corrections work. But if you suggest to people that corrections are the way to go, some amount of people will follow that advice. These people may never have corrected a dog before and probably want a quick and easy fix so corrections sound like the way to go. Corrections only really work when they are 1. Given at the precise right time and 2. If the dog clearly knows and understands the cue in that context and refuses to obey. Which begs the question, how do you know that the dog knows the cue in this context?

Positive punishment also runs the risk of injury to the dog if not given right. Physical and emotional injury can, and does, occur. The dog becomes afraid of people, afraid of the owner, afraid of leashes, afraid of commands, etc. Positive reinforcement takes longer and is arguably a little more confusing when you start getting into the complexity of it, but giving your dog a treat at the wrong time doesn't cause the dog to start fearing things either. Dogs can be ruined with positive punishment and corrections, the worst positive reinforcement will do is make your dog fat.

It's not that people are ganging up on you because you use positive punishment. If you want to do it, do it. But giving that advice over an internet forum is risky in the sense that, the chances these people are going to go out of their way to learn how/when/and why to use corrections are small.


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## L Kathryn (Feb 27, 2012)

Nil said:


> I couldn't find a recall specifically, but I found these two. She used positive reinforcement to get this. She does Agility and Obedience with her Basset Hound and in both videos the dog looks happy, engaged, (to me it looks that way at least) and does not have his nose on the floor despite being outside. But all this proves, to some extent, is that positive reinforcement can work. Not that it will for every handler and every dog.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEE7yLAUwCc
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWMrOjPr3S4
> ...


Thanks for the videos, I will be sure to watch them at my earliest convenience. I agree or at least understand everything you're saying. My concern with fat dogs is that obesity is the leading cause of death among canines - so it is a concern, but perhaps you were just making light. I have only given positive methods over the forum for specific training b/c as you say, timing -if you're going to use any method of training really- is everything but as you said more damage can be done with correction training than positive if used incorrectly. My recommendation to the OP was based ONLY on positive reward based training.
I will, as I said to Poly, attempt to be more basic with my answers for training methods.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

That was my only issue, also, that there are a vast number of people asking for advice, all with varying degrees of knowledge on dogs, dog behavior, and training terminology and philosophies, and, if we present opinios as facts, or if we suggest things that are on the complicated side, people can either: A) take them the wrong way; B) use them incorrectly; or C) put more weight on the suggestions than they should. 

I didn't intend to "gang" up on anyone.


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## L Kathryn (Feb 27, 2012)

doxiemommy said:


> That was my only issue, also, that there are a vast number of people asking for advice, all with varying degrees of knowledge on dogs, dog behavior, and training terminology and philosophies, and, if we present opinios as facts, or if we suggest things that are on the complicated side, people can either: A) take them the wrong way; B) use them incorrectly; or C) put more weight on the suggestions than they should.
> 
> I didn't intend to "gang" up on anyone.


Thank you for explaining. I will try to be more careful in my phrasing and emphasis. I wasn't saying I was ganged up on, just that it bothers me when I see it


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Wow, I suppose I missed quite a bit since my earlier post. I will attempt to address all of the issues presented. 

Firstly, the reason why you cannot use scent as a reward is because you want the dog to ignore the scent and focus on you. Dogs always become fixated on the reward when performing whatever action the owner wants. The last thing you want when leash training a dog is a dog fixated on a scent. 

Secondly, I use leash corrections along with treats. I don't scare or yank my dog around. She's incredibly talented and is currently excelling in advanced obedience and our first dog show is coming up in May. Leash corrections do not have bad affects. You must execute them properly. You can't simply reward the dog for desired behavior and then just ignore them when they don't complete the action. When they do something wrong a correction is necessary. You are not limited to leash corrections but corrections should be given (IMO); this includes verbal, leash, etc. 

Thirdly, hounds ARE different. Once their nose hits the ground even fried chicken wont get them to focus on you. However, a small tug on the leash will. You can't just turn and walk away when they pull, because then they'll simply find a scent going that way. 

Also, sighthounds and huskies often have to be taught using corrective methods when being taught recall. There is a member here that does Husky rescue (Rbark) and he managed, after a lot of work, to get a reliable recall with his Sibe Kobe but he had to use a static shock collar to correct his dog. Especially when training a sighthound or a husky it is important to keep your options open. Corrections will be needed.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Did we scare off the OP, who wants to run with his dog?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Hallie said:


> Firstly, the reason why you cannot use scent as a reward is because you want the dog to ignore the scent and focus on you. Dogs always become fixated on the reward when performing whatever action the owner wants. The last thing you want when leash training a dog is a dog fixated on a scent.
> 
> Secondly, I use leash corrections along with treats. I don't scare or yank my dog around. She's incredibly talented and is currently excelling in advanced obedience and our first dog show is coming up in May. Leash corrections do not have bad affects. You must execute them properly. You can't simply reward the dog for desired behavior and then just ignore them when they don't complete the action. When they do something wrong a correction is necessary. You are not limited to leash corrections but corrections should be given (IMO); this includes verbal, leash, etc.
> 
> Thirdly, hounds ARE different. Once their nose hits the ground even fried chicken wont get them to focus on you. However, a small tug on the leash will. You can't just turn and walk away when they pull, because then they'll simply find a scent going that way.


But the dog is also fixated on a treat or a ball as well when they are used as rewards. Isn't the idea to teach the dog to do something in order to get what they are fixated on? Maybe what you're saying is that the scent reward never ends, unlike a treat. In that case, the dog needs to learn to only track a scent at certain times. How do you stop a dog that is already fixated on tracking? I would do 180 turns until I collapsed from dizziness. You can teach an alternate activity, similar to "drop it" when a dog has a ball in their mouth. Leash correction is a possibility, but in my experience, it's an unsustainable method. Sooner or later, your arm will get tired or the dog's neck will endure more than it needs to. As the dog becomes accustomed to the sensation, harder corrections are needed. That's just my experience. If you can use leash corrections for the lifetime of your dog with no ill effects, fine, but you have to at least acknowledge the risks involved.

Nobody can be 100% positive. For example, even using an R+ method, the dog can hit the end of the leash and be physically punished. It's unavoidable. That said, the dominant tool in an R+ method is the reward, not the positive punishment. 





> Also, sighthounds and huskies often have to be taught using corrective methods when being taught recall. There is a member here that does Husky rescue (Rbark) and he managed, after a lot of work, to get a reliable recall with his Sibe Kobe but he had to use a static shock collar to correct his dog. Especially when training a sighthound or a husky it is important to keep your options open. Corrections will be needed.


We're just talking about LLW walking here, off-leash is a different ballgame.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I have to agree. Dogs can get fixated on anything they perceive as a reward. That's what is so cool about dogs, it's what they PERCEIVE as a reward. Dogs who aren't food motivated may be motivated by a toy or quick cuddle/praise, etc. Anyway, if the dog perceives it to be a reward, there's a possibility for them to get fixated on it.
The way you RESPOND to the fixation is key here. If they aren't focusing on you, remove the treat from their sight, or, in the case of scent, move farther away from the scent they are fixating on, until you get their focus on you. Continue moving away, as needed.
It's similar to reactive dogs (totally off topic, I know). But, if a dog sees a trigger and starts reacting badly, often times you CAN'T get them to respond to you until you move away from the trigger, if that means you have to step off the sidewalk, or cross the street, or go 2 blocks away. Whatever is needed to get that focus.
I would say it has to be something you constantly work on, from a young age, as you do recall, so that the dog becomes accustomed to using scent as a treat.

I remember in "The Other End of the Leash" the author describes a situation where she was working with leave it/drop when a dog had gone after a rabbit carcass (or something similar, I can't recall) in the woods. She used the rabbit as a reward. She asked the dog to drop, and if it did, she would often give the rabbit back for a couple minutes, as stinky and gross as it was, because the dog saw it as a reward, something desired.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Using scent as a reward doesn't work for scent driven dogs because they're constantly searching for the reward. That's how they are. Dogs don't usually do things for their people, they do them to get the treat. In which case fixation is the key. Fixation is a useful tool when you're using a treat to lure the dog. 

Also, dogs do not get 'immune' to leash corrections. Most dogs will not need to be continuously corrected. I use the correction to regain Hallie's attention, at which point I treat her. I don't swing her around or choke her. In fact, most of the time we use a regular collar since she's already been trained how to walk on the leash when I ask her to. 

I use scent as a reward when Hallie is tracking because it is important for her to be able to sit and stay regardless of the temptation around her. She knows that if she stays she'll get to sniff. However, unlike a treat a scent is never ending and the dog will not focus on you again because it has the reward. 

I love my dog's fixation. It's helped us accomplish many things, she's an extremely driven dog.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>> Also, dogs do not get 'immune' to leash corrections. 

I agree with that, but most of us don't have the technique to do a correction, which is only an effective distraction, as opposed to a jerk. I imagine that wsvako does this, and I've worked with trainers that have the touch and timing. But, not me.

However, dogs do get used to how an average user applies a pinch collar... same idea, poor timing and technique.

>>> Dogs don't usually do things for their people, they do them to get the treat. 
I disagree with this as a general statement. If it is context.... don't read further.... Most of us who have phased out the treat or the lure, have dogs who behave for their owners or because they want to, not for a treat.

However, I do agree that most people who use lures/treats.... never phase them out... and then I agree with your statement.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

hanksimon said:


> >> Also, dogs do not get 'immune' to leash corrections.
> 
> I agree with that, but most of us don't have the technique to do a correction, which is only an effective distraction, as opposed to a jerk. I imagine that wsvako does this, and I've worked with trainers that have the touch and timing. But, not me.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100%. I've always done NILF (Nothing in life is free) with Hallie. I even make her sit when I give her water. Using this technique we have effectively phased treats out from our routine (for the most part).

About the corrections- exactly. Timing is key completely. If you continuously correct the dog and never reward you will never get anywhere. It should be used simply as a way to regain your dogs' attention (IMO).


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> >> Also, dogs do not get 'immune' to leash corrections.
> 
> I agree with that, but most of us don't have the technique to do a correction, which is only an effective distraction, as opposed to a jerk. I imagine that wsvako does this, and I've worked with trainers that have the touch and timing. But, not me.


They don't become immune, but the risk of a dog getting habituated to a certain level of discomfort is real. At that point, harder corrections (same physical motion as a jerk) are needed to get the same results. Or, if too many corrections are applied, the pain creates fear/aggression issues. It's a fine line to apply corrections without stepping into bad side effects. Ideally you want to apply a large correction once or twice and then it's never needed again. If you use pops as a baseline method in training, and you use it for all behavior issues, you invariably end up using it over the lifetime of the dog, unless your dog is perfect. Over correcting runs the risks I mentioned earlier. You cannot deny the risks. It's like saying you can't get into a car crash by driving.





> >>> Dogs don't usually do things for their people, they do them to get the treat.
> I disagree with this as a general statement. If it is context.... don't read further.... Most of us who have phased out the treat or the lure, have dogs who behave for their owners or because they want to, not for a treat.
> 
> However, I do agree that most people who use lures/treats.... never phase them out... and then I agree with your statement.


Traditional way of thinking is that the dog must do stuff for the human, but in modern behavior mod, you acknowledge that the dog is doing it_ for themself_. This is a much more accurate way of describing the driving force behind behavior. If the dog looks to you, it's because the dog has learned that _looking to you makes good things happen for himself_, and not as a function of trying to please, which is a ridiculous idea that's based on Lassie. If you think about it enough, as I have, you will realize that even the "good" and "moral" behaviors that we do, are only "good" and "moral" because they make the most good stuff happen, not because they are inherently "right" or "wrong". For a dog, their behavior is all about what makes the good stuff happen for themself. Getting way OT.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Hallie said:


> She's incredibly talented and is currently excelling in advanced obedience and our first dog show is coming up in May. Leash corrections do not have bad affects. You must execute them properly. You can't simply reward the dog for desired behavior and then just ignore them when they don't complete the action. When they do something wrong a correction is necessary. You are not limited to leash corrections but corrections should be given (IMO); this includes verbal, leash, etc.


In my experience, the fading of collar corrections can be extremely difficult and troublesome (much moreso than when fading food rewards). Often times, collar corrections really don't get faded at all. 

It's an especially delicate area when competetion obedience is the goal, where training methods tend to show their true colours once inside the ring and the ability to correct has been removed.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck at your first show.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

You know, I have to say ... I find some of the stereotypical / black and white comments about hounds in this thread to be completely off the mark. They're actually borderline laughable.

I have hounds myself, one of which presently has a CDX plus one leg in Utility, another with a CD and one leg in Open, and others with one leg in Novice. All of my dogs recall wonderfully even off of scent, walk on and off lead through distractions marvellously, are as reliable as I could ever hope for in the ring, .... and, I've utilized virtually no corrections or "nose conquering" whatsoever in their training. I view my dogs' natural ability and desire to scent, as something to work WITH, rather than against.

qingcong, Nil, and doxiemommy have raised some excellent points in this thread that I think are WELL worth re-reading, as they seem to have been missed first time around.


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## RegiaPutri (Mar 31, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> Did we scare off the OP, who wants to run with his dog?


I know right! LOL..

I don't have any opinion as i'm still training LLW with mine  , however this is interesting and good input for me.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> You know, I have to say ... I find some of the stereotypical / black and white comments about hounds in this thread to be completely off the mark. They're actually borderline laughable.
> 
> I have hounds myself, one of which presently has a CDX plus one leg in Utility, another with a CD and one leg in Open, and others with one leg in Novice. All of my dogs recall wonderfully even off of scent, walk on and off lead through distractions marvellously, are as reliable as I could ever hope for in the ring, .... and, I've utilized virtually no corrections or "nose conquering" whatsoever in their training. I view my dogs' natural ability and desire to scent, as something to work WITH, rather than against.
> 
> qingcong, Nil, and doxiemommy have raised some excellent points in this thread that I think are WELL worth re-reading, as they seem to have been missed first time around.


The stereotypical stuff gets me too. A dog is a dog, first, and it's breed second. And, if you start from the beginning, training certain skills and expectations (like "no, you cannot go smell yet, til you do (insert request)") then it's doable.
I have small dogs, stereotypically "yappy" dogs. Ours are not. We taught them the quiet command, use it, they know it, they know what we expect, and, well, everyone's happy. Not that we don't let them be vocal, we just don't allow yap yap yap all the time, which many small breeds are "known for" (sarcasm).


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

People who need help with training (probably already made the mistakes) come to this topic to learn from the people who Have made all the mistakes in the past and now know how to train


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

doxiemommy said:


> The stereotypical stuff gets me too. A dog is a dog, first, and it's breed second. And, if you start from the beginning, training certain skills and expectations (like "no, you cannot go smell yet, til you do (insert request)") then it's doable.
> I have small dogs, stereotypically "yappy" dogs. Ours are not. We taught them the quiet command, use it, they know it, they know what we expect, and, well, everyone's happy. Not that we don't let them be vocal, we just don't allow yap yap yap all the time, which many small breeds are "known for" (sarcasm).


When it comes to certain breeds it IS breed first, dog second. It's in the dog's best interest for safety reasons when training some commands.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Hallie said:


> When it comes to certain breeds it IS breed first, dog second. It's in the dog's best interest for safety reasons when training some commands.


I still respectfully disagree. There are tons of examples of dogs that do NOT show the stereotypical traits of their breeds, even just on this forum, much less other examples. It's amazing what can be done through consistent training, taking into account the traits of the breed, but not giving in to the traits of the breed.


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## Eden & Mason (Mar 23, 2012)

I agree that you can't stereotype breeds BUT it all depends on their training. Take our nine year old Bluetick, we have no problem calling her off deer and other game. My hubby's parents blues not likely because they were trained for that. Eden has an excellent nose but has never been used for hunting. Mason our puppy has come into his nose (which apparently is a pretty good one) and his recall isn't bad but we are working it. 

Eden has lived on the farm most of her life so leash walks weren't apart of her daily life. So trying to train a puppy and a "trained" dog has been difficult. Eden has done fantastic on the gentle leader/halti and no longer requires it. Mason bucks like a little colt whenever we try the halti so the process is slow. He is getting better but he's just so into his nose right now. It's actually quite amazing to see them track. Now just to get him to see the difference between a track and a nice walk in town. He thinks everything is an adventure...


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

doxiemommy said:


> I still respectfully disagree. There are tons of examples of dogs that do NOT show the stereotypical traits of their breeds, even just on this forum, much less other examples.



Exactly, saying certain breeds do certain things is basically a way to self-fulfill problems. I don't understand how knowing breed helps to train. At best it gives you a reference point to start, so you can be mindful of what to expect, but it certainly doesn't do jack in terms of helping you to take appropriate action. I have no idea what breed my dog is, yet I've made plenty of training progress in many areas, and through training I learned about his characteristics. I didn't say, "oh, he's probably a whippet terrier so he's probably really shy and high drive". I let his behavior determine what I needed to do, not his breed.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

doxiemommy said:


> I still respectfully disagree. There are tons of examples of dogs that do NOT show the stereotypical traits of their breeds, even just on this forum, much less other examples. It's amazing what can be done through consistent training, taking into account the traits of the breed, but not giving in to the traits of the breed.


 Regardless of breed you train consistently lol. There isn't any breed where you wouldn't train consistently. Maybe you're getting the wrong idea of what I mean. A husky, regardless of how good his recall is, should never be trusted off leash when training. You train a husky a little different than a Lab. A husky is rarely motivated to please its owner, while a Lab is eager to please. Obviously the husky is going to need a different style of training (more treats more enthusiam etc). I don't understand what you think I mean. Breed has NOTHING to do with using positive methods or correction methods, that's not at all what I said.

Also, I'm feeling a bit attacked here. My Beagle is extremely accomplished in obedience. I use treats in the ring and she does great. In fact, she's one of the best dogs in her class. I use treats to 'conquer' her nose in the ring and she does fine. I can almost guarantee I have one of the best trained dogs in my town. Yes she has a recall, she even has a great one. However, I won't let her off leash. She got hit by two cars because of something similar. Some breeds just shouldn't be off leash regardless of recall because of safety reasons. This has nothing to do with whether you use corrections or not. It simply has to do with whether or not you use a leash.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Hallie said:


> A husky, regardless of how good his recall is, should never be trusted off leash when training. You train a husky a little different than a Lab. A husky is rarely motivated to please its owner, while a Lab is eager to please. Obviously the husky is going to need a different style of training (more treats more enthusiam etc). I don't understand what you think I mean. Breed has NOTHING to do with using positive methods or correction methods, that's not at all what I said.


Shouldn't you let the individual animal's behavior dictate your training methods and not the breed? If a dog pulls on the leash, what difference does it make if it's a husky, beagle, whippet, shepherd, or bulldog? I'm not sure that NO huskies can be trusted off-leash. It's just a generalization that gives the trainer something to watch for and be careful of, but it's not a hard fast rule that ALL huskies run off.







> Also, I'm feeling a bit attacked here. My Beagle is extremely accomplished in obedience. I use treats in the ring and she does great. In fact, she's one of the best dogs in her class. I use treats to 'conquer' her nose in the ring and she does fine. I can almost guarantee I have one of the best trained dogs in my town.


I don't think people are attacking you personally, nor is anybody questioning your results. I'm just challenging the ideas you're presenting, delving into your thoughts and getting clarification. In the process everybody learns something.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

qingcong said:


> I don't think people are attacking you personally, nor is anybody questioning your results. I'm just challenging the ideas you're presenting, delving into your thoughts and getting clarification. In the process everybody learns something.


I concur with this. I too, am politely questioning some of the 'inside the box' ideas presented such as .. hounds MUST be corrected, sniffing is NOT a viable reward for hounds, once on scent hounds have NO recall, etc. 

I meant no offense, especially to any fellow hound enthusiasts. In fact, I have TREMENDOUS admiration for everyone who trains one for competition. IMHO, we are all very brave of heart.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I don't think all hounds need to be corrected. I use more treats than I do corrections. The only time I ever pull on the leash is to get Hallie's attention and then I give her praise and treats. I wouldn't quite call that a correction. As far as recall goes, my hound has an awesome recall. Unfortunately that didn't keep her from getting hit by two cars when she uncharacteristically didn't come when called. I might be biased there, I'm a bit over protective since my baby got hit :redface:

I just think breed helps give a good starting point. You know a bit more of what to expect. 

petpeeve- Me and Hallie surprise everyone when we train. She's the best dog in her class. Everyone is always so surprised that the Beagle is better than the border collie :clap2: I love hounds. I think they are by far some of the easiest dogs to train. I've worked with lots of dogs and I've never met any more food motivated than a hound.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Very good then.

I think I said previously that the fastest route to a hound's brain is through their stomach, lol.

And *if* any generalizations are to be made, perhaps the only other one I'm in favour of is that hounds are quite soft, and typically don't respond well to corrections, but hey "if it works for you it works for me" is what I always say. 

Again, good luck at your show, please let us know how it goes if you feel so inclined.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Hallie said:


> I just think breed helps give a good starting point. You know a bit more of what to expect.


True - assuming you can find non-conflicting info. I've looked a lot for "standard Coton" temperament and stuff and it either didn't apply to Wally and/or was wildly conflicting. Maybe its because they are still rare in this country (USA), not AKC recognized or something. Some say Cotons are territorial, some say they are suspicious, some say they are very friendly, it got confusing after a while.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I thunk that Cotons had the intelligence and personality of a Bichon and the termperament of a mop ?


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Hallie said:


> Regardless of breed you train consistently lol. There isn't any breed where you wouldn't train consistently. Maybe you're getting the wrong idea of what I mean. A husky, regardless of how good his recall is, should never be trusted off leash when training. You train a husky a little different than a Lab. A husky is rarely motivated to please its owner, while a Lab is eager to please. Obviously the husky is going to need a different style of training (more treats more enthusiam etc). I don't understand what you think I mean. Breed has NOTHING to do with using positive methods or correction methods, that's not at all what I said.
> 
> Also, I'm feeling a bit attacked here. My Beagle is extremely accomplished in obedience. I use treats in the ring and she does great. In fact, she's one of the best dogs in her class. I use treats to 'conquer' her nose in the ring and she does fine. I can almost guarantee I have one of the best trained dogs in my town. Yes she has a recall, she even has a great one. However, I won't let her off leash. She got hit by two cars because of something similar. Some breeds just shouldn't be off leash regardless of recall because of safety reasons. This has nothing to do with whether you use corrections or not. It simply has to do with whether or not you use a leash.


Of course, you always train consistently, that's not really the point. The point is, if you start from the beginning (young age) with certain expectations, and express those clearly, in a sequential and consistent way, I don't think you have to limit what you expect because the dog is a certain breed. Maybe you need more practice with a dog that has certain traits, maybe you need to move more slowly. But, I don't think you can EVER say 
'such and such breeds *always* need this kind of training' or
'such and such breeds *never* can be allowed to do this' or
you can *never *use such and such as a reward for this breed'

That's why I said "..._taking into account _the traits of the breed, _but not giving in _to the traits of the breed."
Also, not attacking you, just not agreeing.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

KBLover said:


> True - assuming you can find non-conflicting info. I've looked a lot for "standard Coton" temperament and stuff and it either didn't apply to Wally and/or was wildly conflicting. Maybe its because they are still rare in this country (USA), not AKC recognized or something. Some say Cotons are territorial, some say they are suspicious, some say they are very friendly, it got confusing after a while.




I think the breed thing over complicates things and basically _blocks_ people from making progress. If we go in with the expectation of a certain problem behavior that's destined to happen because of breed associations, and then it happens, we confirm for ourselves that "hey, there's nothing I can do about it because it was supposed to happen". And then you have people who get into the nonsense that in order to stop problem behaviors, you have to be pack leader.

With a dog, their skillsets are pretty simple - they bark, run, dig, jump, chew, bite, sniff. If I have a dog, I can reasonably expect any of those behaviors to happen. I guess breed gives a reference point on how often to expect these behaviors, so that someone can be prepared to take action.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

hanksimon said:


> I thunk that Cotons had the intelligence and personality of a Bichon and the termperament of a mop ?


LOL

Well, Wally sometimes looks like a throw rug when he's curled up or laying flat. Maybe when he's laying long, he's doing the mop impression 

Wally has a personality of a diva - I don't know if all Bichons are divas LOL


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Gally said:


> I think you've got the right idea. You might need to find a higher value treat for him and dole it out more frequently, but he doesn't need to have his attention 100% on you all the time unless you really are training heeling. It's okay if he wants to sniff but you need to be setting the pace so he can't pull to get ahead and he can't fall behind but it's okay if he walks in a few feet radius around you (on whatever side you're holding the leash). If he pulls ahead, stop and wait for the leash to go slack. He doesn't go anywhere if he pulls. If he falls behind sniffing just call him to come with you and reward for keeping pace. That's what has worked best for me. If it's a matter of him being too strong and pulling you could try a front clip harness while you train him to walk loose leash.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHwu...DvjVQa1PpcFORisFDwDzm9nQDjx62L3uyDr2izF_kiXw=
> ...


Thanks for these videos. I've been having some pulling issues, too & these were very helpful.

ETA: I worked with the techniques described in the first & second videos during this morning's walk & by the time I'd run out of treats, she was pulling at least 90% less. No treats during her evening walk and she's doing great not pulling. When she does, I call her back to me, put her in a sit and then proceed. Both walks today were an absolute pleasure. Thanks SO much again for the videos!!


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