# Loose-leash walking method - am I doing this right?



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

I am trying to teach Unna my jagd to walk on loose leash. She pulls terribly. I don't mind her walking ahead of me as I want her to learn tracking. Also that way I can watch what she is doing and picking up. I don't really want to teach her to walk behind or besides me, but slightly in-front, just without pulling to the point of choking herself.

I am trying the stop-n-go method. This is what our trainer instructor taught us. I've been working on this for two weeks now and have seen zero progress. When she pulls, I stop and wait until she relaxes the tension and looks at me like "hey whats up?" Then I praise and continue. I take about two steps and she is shooting to the end of the leash again. So I stop. Our walks have become VERY slow and frankly frustrating for both of us as we hardly make any progress and she seems to get more wound up and pully because she is so frustrated by the constant stopping. 

Is there something I am missing here? Are some dogs not cut out for this method? She doesn't just stand there with the leash tight...she crawls and pulls desperately, clawing at the pavement with her front legs. Her nails have worn down to nubs from this. She won't 'walk' on a walk, she is either trying to run full-tilt, or we are stopped while I "be a tree" and wait for her to let the leash go slack.

Oh, and Unna doesn't care about treats when we are outdoors. Inside, sure, full attention. Outdoors I can wave a liver treat under her nose and she completely ignores it because she is too focused on every moving object around. So trying to get her attention with treats or guide her into a position with treats doesn't work, as she won't take it, and just sort of looks like "no thanks I'm too busy trying to get away from you to eat that"
If there are people, other dogs, or birds in view, forget it. She will not let up that tension or stop trying to pull to get to them. 

I am using a regular flat collar for this. I will try to get some video so you can see just how she is. Our trainer is annoying me with this. She demonstrates it in class as if it's the simplest thing in the world, and of course becaue we are indoors and she has a bum bag full of liver, the dogs immediately stop pulling and look at her when she demonstrates for us in class. Outside this does not work. Other owners in the class have also expressed their frustration that this method is not working.

How long does it usually take using this "stop n go" method of loose leash training to see some results? She really doesn't seem to be getting it, and our walks are becoming a frustrating ordeal that make her more wound up, rather than draining her energy.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

The stop-and-go (or be a tree) method might teach the dog what you _don't_ want, but it doesn't teach what you _do_ want. I find that it doesn't give the dog enough information about what he should be doing, so he does what he wants (and it's usually not what you want).

When I was working with my dogs, we started in a low distraction area (living room, family room, slowly progressing to the driveway) and I reinforced heavily for being in the desired position. When we walked outside, I used a no-pull harness (we have an Easy Walk, but I wouldn't recommend it). Once my dogs understood that staying close "paid" they were less likely to pull. Now, both dogs walk ahead of me unless we're practicing heeling [my younger has an annoying tendency to walk directly behind me (like a duckling) but I generally know what he's up to].

If you find that your dog won't take treats outside even after building a reinforcement history in lower distraction areas, try using the environment as the reward. If he walks nicely for a few steps, allow him to go sniff or explore an especially interesting area.

This is good advice with a helpful video:


petpeeve said:


> It might help too if you teach the dog(s) heel position with focus,_ statically/stationary_, at first. If so you'll also need a release cue. As mentioned by others, in the early stages use an abundance of treats and reward 'in position'.
> 
> For the in-motion aspect I like to use something similar to what is shown in the initial part of this video ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5il8ym0ymY ... although I would probably feed directly from the hand while continuing to move along rather than tossing treats into the grass. You can advance to doing that once your dog gains a little proficiency.
> 
> Personally I teach heeling / LLW off-lead in a safe fenced-in area at first until a strong history of reinforcement has been established, before adding the leash to the equation. Then begin to take it to the streets for short sessions, and increase distractions and length of walk gradually.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

I agree with cookieface, start in a lower distraction area to start off. Reward her when she is walking beside you. Ralphie loves to attack tufts of grass of weeds that stick up above the ground, and he often lunges for these. I use them as a reward. In order to attack the thing, you must first walk with a loose leash.

If it makes you feel any better, I have been working on LLW with Ralphie for 4 months. At two weeks of working with him, he still pulled terribly. It is normal for young dogs to be terribly excited about everything and their brain just kind of falls out. When we started we barely made it a single step before he was lunging at something. He is far, far better now and can walk ahead of me without pulling on the leash, but he will still pull if he sees something interesting. It took a long time for him to figure out that when I stop he needs to release the pressure. He will turn his head and give me this look that says "Do I have to?" and back up two steps (Seriously, he takes two exaggerated steps backward) to create a loose leash, and then we continue.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm really not a fan of this method and I've had the same issues as you.

Since she won't take treats outside, I would use the penalty yards/leash zen method. That way you can use rewards in the environment. You do need to start inside though or in a low distraction environment. Put a treat on the ground, and start walking towards it with her on leash. Of course she'll pull, so then back up to where you started. She needs to learn that to get the treat, she needs to control herself and keep the leash loose. Once she has the hang of this inside, try it outside. Find something you think she'll pull towards to sniff (like a light or sign pole) and practice the same thing. She pulls, you back up.

At the same time I'd try silky leash. The idea of this method is to teach the dog to give to collar pressure. http://grishastewart.com/leash-walking/

I think the combination of these methods is much more useful than "be a tree", especially for dogs who have no interest in treats outside.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I've got to work the treat on the ground with Bucky, he would love it.

Trick with LLW is to work the dog not get stuck in one method. I do use the stop and start and Bucky and other dogs I've worked with did lunge to the end of the leash and not get better. I thought on it and started treating when dog was next to my leg as I moved and with Bucky I also do stop start without waiting for him to hit the end of the leash. Looks like a wierd march, 1 step, 4 steps, 1 step, 2 steps. Then he walks within the circumference of the leash for a bit then forgets I'm there and we are back to it.

LLW is really hard for baby dogs. They have to keep in mind that there is somebody else involved and go much slower than a natural gait and keep a given distance from you rather than whatever the natural range they would be off leash. I know a first grade child is expected to have an attention span of about 20 minutes so there's that too, we expect all this for too long a time. Then outside is so exciting for them. I allow Bucky to take it all in for as long as he likes and only move when he signals he is ready to explore the next 6' of sidewalk by looking at me when he is at my side. He also shows me he has had enough when the lunging gets to looking like a temper tantrum rather than simple forgetting how long the leash is and I turn around. Walks do not have to go anywhere! You can walk the same 200' for an hour rather than walk a 3 mile route. Bucky started with 100' walks and now can go 1/2 mile from home without either of us losing it. Ginger started out about the same way and after a year she ended up a nice leash walker, it's a pleasure to walk her now. I expect in another 6 months it will be a joy to walk Bucky and I'll have to remember to treat him for good LLW rather than have to find a moment worth treating.


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Thank you all, great advice! We will work on this and let you know how it goes. If I 'be a tree' anymore she is going to have no nails left! So I will avoid long walks for now and work on this.


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Well we are having mixed success here. Indoors, awesome, everything goes great, she is focused and learns quickly. Outdoors she wont look at me and even if I can get her attention, she won't give it for more than about 2 seconds. Movement and smells of the outside world are too much for her. I got a 'lupi' no pull harness and it doesn't work at all. She pulls just as hard, and the little metal diamond that I gather is supposed to restrict the movement of her shoulder blades has rubbed a bald spot on her back. So we threw that out today after a long, frustrating hike where she never walked on a loose leash for more than maybe 10 steps before lunging ahead. And it's not just pulling...she pulls like she is trying to tow a truck...legs splayed, low to the ground, grinding her nails and tearing up the grass.
I'm thinking of trying a front-attatched harness. Any suggestions for which kind? I just need something that isn't going to injure her while we continue to train...she pulls so hard she is hurting herself, but has such an amazingly high pain tolerance that I fear her body would have to be physically incapable of working anymore before she would submit to discomfort or pain

Any tips for ME on how to become more patient? Her determination to pull is stronger than my patience. I can only stand in front of the fire hydrant with a dog pulling so hard that she is tearing up ruts in the grass and is choking and gasping before I have to just give in and let her move forward. She is going to do permanent damage to herself if I keep trying to be patient and wait for her to relent to the pressure on the leash.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Without seeing the dog "in action" I can't guarantee success, but if you're looking for a good front-clip harness my preferred brand is Sense-ation, followed by the Balance Harness. 'Sense-ation' gives good control across the chest, but Balance offers more freedom of movement in the shoulders. I like each for different reasons on different dogs. 

For a determined 'puller' a harness that is supposed to 'gently apply pressure so as to discourage pulling' is pretty much worthless. (that's why I have a variety of different management tools at my disposal - there is **nothing** that works for every dog in every situation) Are you working with an experienced trainer? Sometimes it's simply a matter of making slight adjustments in your methods/timing that make all the difference. 

As far as how to increase your patience? IME, if you're frustrated, so is the dog. Something has to change in order to make forward progress - and that's up to you. YOU, as the "human in charge" have to make *something* change in order to 'get through' to the dog. Sorry - I wish there was a simpler solution. My advice is to keep trying different things until something 'clicks' for both you & and the dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The tree method didn't work at all for Casper. A modified Penalty Yards (every time the dog pulls, turn around and walk the other direction for a few steps, or just back up for a few steps) did the trick. He's the best loose-leash walker out of any dog I've ever had at this point; he trots along right by my heel (even though I don't insist on a strict heel, just no pulling).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The best success I've ever had was with teaching the dog to walk HERE - ie: I don't teach them not to pull but give them a 'reward zone' around my side. I've never had that be a tree thing work for a dog. Penalty yards, some dogs, if they wanted to go somewhere instead of just going 'YAY MOVING'. If they're 'YAY MOVING' no matter what, it's really just easiest to teach them where you want them to walk and treat the leash as an accessory, rather than trying to make the objective keeping pressure off the leash. I don't think dogs GET the 'remove pressure from leash' as a goal. I'm not even sure many NOTICE it.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Terriermon said:


> Well we are having mixed success here. Indoors, awesome, everything goes great, she is focused and learns quickly. Outdoors she wont look at me and even if I can get her attention, she won't give it for more than about 2 seconds. Movement and smells of the outside world are too much for her. I got a 'lupi' no pull harness and it doesn't work at all. She pulls just as hard, and the little metal diamond that I gather is supposed to restrict the movement of her shoulder blades has rubbed a bald spot on her back. So we threw that out today after a long, frustrating hike where she never walked on a loose leash for more than maybe 10 steps before lunging ahead. And it's not just pulling...she pulls like she is trying to tow a truck...legs splayed, low to the ground, grinding her nails and tearing up the grass.
> I'm thinking of trying a front-attatched harness. Any suggestions for which kind? I just need something that isn't going to injure her while we continue to train...she pulls so hard she is hurting herself, but has such an amazingly high pain tolerance that I fear her body would have to be physically incapable of working anymore before she would submit to discomfort or pain
> 
> Any tips for ME on how to become more patient? Her determination to pull is stronger than my patience. I can only stand in front of the fire hydrant with a dog pulling so hard that she is tearing up ruts in the grass and is choking and gasping before I have to just give in and let her move forward. She is going to do permanent damage to herself if I keep trying to be patient and wait for her to relent to the pressure on the leash.


It's ok, don't get discouraged! She is a young dog, and frankly, everything is more interesting than you at this point. If you are worried about her hurting herself, you could get a regular harness so there is not so much pressure on her neck. Ralphie pulls like a tow truck, too, when he sees a person he knows, and he chokes and gags himself, and we've been working for months on LLW. Try backing up, because it seems like when they are to the point of gagging themselves they are over threshold. It's not abnormal, you just have to imagine how excited and stimulating outside is for young dogs! When I am getting frustrated and want to lose my patience, I just try to remember my dog hasn't even been in the world a year yet, and things I see everyday and think are normal are weird, scary, or fascinating to him!

If you can get her to walk 10 steps on a loose leash, you are making progress! Capitalize on it! Is she toy motivated at all outside? I know you said she doesn't take food outside, but what kind of treats are you using? Could she resist lunch meat, maybe fresh liver (gross, I know, but yummy to dogs!), or cheese?


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Yes, she is toy motivated and I feel great cause we are making real progress now thanks to this! I tried first with the furry lure from her flirt pole first, and it worked a little too well, she was going bonkers. So I've been trying various toys to find one she likes but doesn't go psycho for, and have found it, it's a plain canvas tug toy, with a long 'tail'. She really, really loves playing tug with it and is very focused and attentive even outside, but it's not so attractive that she tries to run off and eat it once she has it, like the furry ones. I can keep it in my pocket, and just have to reach for it when she starts pulling too hard and she will look and become attentive. When we have walked nicely for a bit I ask her to sit, and then we have a good tug game with the toy. Now we are working on 'give' and it's going well actually because she really just wants to play tug of war, not to actually have the toy. She stuffs it back in my hand if I let go or drop it, hehe


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## ziggzmom (Jun 9, 2015)

Terriermon said:


> I am trying to teach Unna my jagd to walk on loose leash. She pulls terribly. I don't mind her walking ahead of me as I want her to learn tracking.
> 
> You've gotten good advice about training LLW so just a comment walking on leash vs pulling while tracking...Walking nicely on a leash and tracking are two seperate things. I track with all my dogs and they are expected to walk to the start flag on a loose leash. Once they start tracking, then they can dig in and take the lead. They understand the difference if you make it clear what you expect=)
> 
> ...


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

What ziggzmom said, I doubt walking on a loose leash would interfere. Most people teach heel before tracking I assume, and that would be more interfering than just walking on a loose leash. That being said, assuming that's all that's "holding you back" from teaching her not to forge at all, I would suggest teaching her Heel.

You mentioned her choking herself. Yes she may be restricting her breathing, but as I understand it, dogs have a different attitude about their breathing being restricted. Humans panic any time someone even grabs their neck, but dogs, for the most part, don't. And those who would don't pull hard enough to restrict their own breathing anyways. So I wouldn't worry too much if she's breathing heavy. If she really can't get any air, she'll stop. Although you probably would long before her. I can't say for sure though, I'm not a vet.

Now the method you're using depends on the slack line as negative reinforcement to show the dog that things are better off when the leash is slack. That's a good thing, but it would be reinforced by using something that would apply pressure in her collar as well as the leash. I personally use a choke chain as I follow a method that fairly uses it and I know how to apply it without injury, but I don't know that you would agree to it, so maybe even a martingale collar would work. The only purpose of pinch, choke, or martingale collars is to create the concept of pressure and release. The slack leash(and collar,) is the dog's primary reinforcer. It won't choke your dog, it won't injure them, if you use it correctly. 

This is how I do it: When the dog forges ahead about two feet, turn around an run. For a smaller dog, it would turn them around before any damage could be done because they're so light. For a big dog, if used correctly, it would also turn them around, but their stronger neck would absorb it more than be moved. So don't worry about injury, this technique has also been verified by vets to be safe. The point here is to be impersonal. This is not a correction given by you for something the dog did wrong. This is you turning around without the dog knowing - that means no talking, and make sure he doesn't realize you turned around - so that he will take it as the fact that you turned around, and because he was too far ahead, he wasn't warned of it. So even with the assumption that a correction would cause fear in a dog(which I disagree with), this is not a correction. You were walking, and turned around to get the cake that was burning in your oven. Your dog, by chance, was tied to you. That means he'll come with you. Things will just be a bit more comfortable if he stays beside you. This is the biggest reason why I choose balanced training, because you do it in a way that lets the dog have his privilege of the consequences for good and bad action. That, in my opinion is more fair, and kinder, to the dog, than +R. 

You don't have to follow my advice, but if you want to rely on negative reinforcement, this is the best way I've found to do it. A few short encounters with the end of the line - even if you did use a choke chain - would be much more comfortable, and faster, than the tree idea, let alone straining the leash all the time as he did before. 

So in conclusion, this is not a correction. I would never correct a dog who didn't know what to do. This is you turning around and running, for reasons unknown to the dog. If you keep those reasons unknown, the effect is that it was his fault that he hit the end of the leash, and he will decide for himself how to keep that from happening again.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I've found success with a combo of penalty yards and reward zone. I reward while the dog is at my side, let them walk ahead as long as the leash is loose, but the moment they pull I abruptly turn and go the other way (not letting them slam on the end of the leash, but encouraging them to keep coming to me) until they catch up, at which point they continue to be rewarded. I want them to get the idea that they should pay attention to me because I have treats and am also unpredictable. I am with CptJack in the idea that I don't think many dogs even notice the leash whether it's tight or not. 

I've also noticed that very often the dog will understand that they have to stay close long before the owner stops unconsciously holding the leash short and tight in "defense". So now if note that the HANDLER is holding the leash tight, I ask them to only hold it with one hand at the loop and lo and behold the dog is not pulling at all.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> What ziggzmom said, I doubt walking on a loose leash would interfere. Most people teach heel before tracking I assume, and that would be more interfering than just walking on a loose leash. That being said, assuming that's all that's "holding you back" from teaching her not to forge at all, I would suggest teaching her Heel.
> 
> You mentioned her choking herself. Yes she may be restricting her breathing, but as I understand it, dogs have a different attitude about their breathing being restricted. Humans panic any time someone even grabs their neck, but dogs, for the most part, don't. And those who would don't pull hard enough to restrict their own breathing anyways. So I wouldn't worry too much if she's breathing heavy. If she really can't get any air, she'll stop. Although you probably would long before her. I can't say for sure though, I'm not a vet.
> 
> ...


Intentionally causing discomfort in a dog (either directly or indirectly) is not a good way to teach a lesson, as I'm sure terriermom already knows.

How many dogs have you used this method on exactly and what is your success rate?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> o don't worry about injury, this technique has also been verified by vets to be safe.


By which vet where, exactly?

Because my vet has strong feelings about this and those feelings are 'Oh heck no', because of both injury and things like collapsing trachea and intraocular (eye) pressure. Those last two are mostly small dog things, but not exclusively, and actual neck strain/damage is regardless of size. The bigger the dog, the bigger the neck, yes, but also the *more force* they can exert on said neck.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I have a Great Dane mix puppy on a class who, when I first met him, pulled so hard on his collar that he threw up. That's a lot of force and can absolutely cause damage.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

TSTrainer said:


> I have a Great Dane mix puppy on a class who, when I first met him, pulled so hard on his collar that he threw up. That's a lot of force and can absolutely cause damage.


And that's not even touching 'turn around and RUN the other way'. I mean. There's the damage potential from pulling (use a management tool, there, frankly, while teaching and for the sake of your shoulders) and then there's compounding it by actively yanking the dog the other way. Particularly by the neck. Around 180 degrees. While it's trying to pull the other way.

Fan-freaking-tastic, I say snidely.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

SlabGizor117 said:


> This is the biggest reason why I choose balanced training, because you do it in a way that lets the dog have his privilege of the consequences for good and bad action. That, in my opinion is more fair, and kinder, to the dog, than +R.


Okay, I'm really not following the logic of this statement. Could you explain?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Okay, I'm really not following the logic of this statement. Could you explain?


The dog gets to do what it wants until it does something bad, then you punish it. So the dog has the 'privilege' of free thought rather than being managed. 

Except, you know, it's a dog and that's not how dogs work, positive training works or any of it works. At all. It's such a profound misunderstanding that I can't even pick where to dig into all the things wrong with it.

And for the record no one who uses 'praise' as the only reinforcer is actually a balanced trainer. Balanced training means corrections and *rewards the dog values*. Which is not praise for 98.9% of dogs. Praise, when used in context of someone form whom it's the only 'reward' given is actually code for 'your reward is I don't hurt or scare you'. WHICH IS STILL NOT POSITIVE and still means 'negative trainer' rather than balanced.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I LOVE the video in petpeeve's quote with the shaping!

I also have not seen much success with 'be a tree'. The walk turns into something like stop and go traffic during rush hour. I'm a fan of a modified version of penalty yards and rewarding in position. For dogs that just want to forge ahead with seemingly no goal, ie they just want to GO, I actually do something similar to what SlabGizor recommends. NOTE: I have loosely followed all of his posts and think that poster is a disgrace to the dog community. The only piece of information I agree with in all the things he has written is the part where you turn around and go the opposite way with a dog that's forging ahead. Important point:

-I don't turn and run. I simply stop when the dog pulls then go in the opposite direction when the dog stops.
-I only do this on a harness. It is not my intention to bluntly stop a dog by any means. A very unfocused dog WILL hit the end of the line but if possible bring the dog to a soft stop and use a verbal prompt to try to get the dog's attention which may help prevent the dog from hitting the end of the leash. And also, crucial to use the harness so that any pressure from pulling does not hurt the dog.

This starts out with you spinning in circles. But the dog soon learns that to get ANYWHERE the leash needs to be loose. It is negative punishment; the dog's pulling makes the ability to move forward go away. I like adding in positive reinforcement by rewarding in position as well. I know you want her to walk slightly in front, but I would suggest you reward by your side since it is easier to reward for position when your dog is next to you rather than in front of you. As you progress in training and she learns LLW, she may naturally lead out a bit but still keep that leash loose. But in the beginning, if you are striving for LLW AND having her be in front, you are going to have a harder time.

If Una won't take treats outside and is that unfocused, I think focus is the priority here especially if she normally loves food. One thing I love is waiting for engagement. You might start in your house with your dog on leash and the front door open. Ignore any pulling or whining and just root yourself. The moment Una focuses on you, mark and reward. She is not eating because she is unfocused. If she is calm enough to focus on you, I wager she will eat. Now move 2 feet closer to the door and repeat. You will find that when you get outside all focus might be lost again. It's alright! Just be patient and repeat. You need to open her mind to learning in distracting environments before expecting her to be able to learn anything.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

SlabGizor117 said:


> What ziggzmom said, I doubt walking on a loose leash would interfere. Most people teach heel before tracking I assume, and that would be more interfering than just walking on a loose leash. That being said, assuming that's all that's "holding you back" from teaching her not to forge at all, I would suggest teaching her Heel.
> 
> You mentioned her choking herself. Yes she may be restricting her breathing, but as I understand it, dogs have a different attitude about their breathing being restricted. Humans panic any time someone even grabs their neck, but dogs, for the most part, don't. And those who would don't pull hard enough to restrict their own breathing anyways. So I wouldn't worry too much if she's breathing heavy. If she really can't get any air, she'll stop. Although you probably would long before her. I can't say for sure though, I'm not a vet.
> 
> ...


First, this is horrible advice.

Second, exactly how many dogs have you trained? Last week you said you've never trained (or even owned) a dog. Today, you've used these methods?


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## ziggzmom (Jun 9, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Most people teach heel before tracking..



Well actually I start tracking my puppies at 8 weeks old (or whatever age I get them) so no, I don't teach heeling or LLW first-YMMV=)

Janet- TDX/UDX/200


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

ziggzmom said:


> Well actually I start tracking my puppies at 8 weeks old (or whatever age I get them) so no, I don't teach heeling or LLW first-YMMV=)
> 
> Janet- TDX/UDX/200


Oh, look, yet another person with titles. It's almost like the person who's never actually trained a dog doesn't know what s/he is talking about.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, can I start posting Kylie's titles to end posts here? 

...I could just put them in my sig, but I get weird about it. MsBoats we are not. Also they're all agility which. Probably doesn't count, but argh. THIS PERSON.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

ireth0 said:


> Okay, I'm really not following the logic of this statement. Could you explain?


"[The internet] has dignified the prattle of 'dog psychologists who [by their 'kindness',] would rob a dog of a birthright he shares in common with all of God's creatures: The right to the consequences of his actions. There will always be more emphasis and clarity to be had in the contrast between (fair) punishment and reward than from the technique of 'only good, and if they obey, still more good'. And there is more meaning and awareness of living a life that knows the consequences of both favorable and unfavorable action. So let's not deprive the dog of HIS PRIVILEGE of experiencing the consequences of right and wrong."

"If one takes care to give the dog plenty of slack, the dog perceives its 'abrupt stop and complete reversal' no as a fate visited upon it by the handler but as something it has brought upon itself. Think of an oak tree. A dog may try running full speed into an oak tree once, but it will quickly learn the consequences of its action. Now can you imagine a dog doing that a second time? Does the dog hate the oak tree? Is the oak tree cruel? The right about turn is every bit as impersonal. If the handler presents it without emotion or malice, the dog will perceive it that way."

-Bill Koehler

You wanna know what Bill Koehler thought of trainers like those on this forum? You think I'm bad?

"I think these humaniacs are the worst enemies that dogs and other people have. A lot of this stuff sounds so nice - "We love our doggies. We're kind to our pets" - The don't really love them, they love themselves, and they love their image of being so kind. And I'll tell you this, when their dog gets killed unnecessarily from running out in traffic, they're very apt to [put a picture in their forum post signature - 'Luna, 2010-2016']. And the poor dog would be alive today if the owner had a spine instead of Jell-O."

The point here is not that Bill Koehler thought you were wimps and couldn't be mean to get the point across. Bill Koehler wasn't any less of an animal lover than anyone else here.

"See, I love dogs. Believe me, I've slobbered over more good and worthless dogs than almost anybody. Yesterday morning I was bawling like a baby because I had to have an old dog put down. But you know, sentiment is one thing, but there's a time for logic, too; in the training of dogs and every other profession."


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

cookieface said:


> First, this is horrible advice.
> 
> Second, exactly how many dogs have you trained? Last week you said you've never trained (or even owned) a dog. Today, you've used these methods?


I had said I hadn't trained one fully to the companion dog standard as the method uses for its goal, but I have used these techniques in Heel without any problems, from me or the dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

So, do you have any opinions or knowledge of your own?

(That was a rhetorical question. I know you don't, because you've never owned or trained a dog.)


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> I had said I hadn't trained one fully to the companion dog standard as the method uses for its goal, but I have used these techniques in Heel without any problems, from me or the dog.


How many dogs?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> "[The internet] has dignified the prattle of 'dog psychologists


Are you sure Mr Koehler himself said that? I mean, he died in 1993, and, while the internet was a thing back then, as I remember there wasn't much on it. Not a lot (if any, idk) dog forums anyway. I think someone else is trying to pass off their words as his. 

But anyhoo. Just because somebody disagrees with me doesn't mean I'm going to boo-hoo about it. Especially someone whose advice I disagree rather vehemently with. Because I've made up my own mind without someone else feeding me talking points.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Are you sure Mr Koehler himself said that? I mean, he died in 1993, and, while the internet was a thing back then, as I remember there wasn't much on it. Not a lot (if any, idk) dog forums anyway. I think someone else is trying to pass off their words as his.
> 
> But anyhoo. Just because somebody disagrees with me doesn't mean I'm going to boo-hoo about it. Especially someone whose advice I disagree rather vehemently with. Because I've made up my own mind without someone else feeding me talking points.


He must be playing fill in the blank. It's fun!

[Slabgizor117] has dignified the prattle of [people who have never trained dogs] who [by their 'ignorance',] would rob a dog of a birthright he shares in common with all of God's creatures: The right to the [kindness and scientifically based dog training without abuse or pain]. There will always be more [cruelty] to be had in the contrast between [] punishment and reward than from the technique of 'only good, and if they obey, still more good'. And there is more meaning and awareness of living a life that knows [kindness and love]. So let's not deprive the dog of HIS PRIVILEGE of experiencing [patience, kindness and scientifically based techniques]."


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Having just lost a dog, I'm gonna say---dogs don't live long enough, and they love you even if you're a jerk to them. Don't do anything you'll regret when you're holding them at the vet's office.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Having just lost a dog, I'm gonna say---dogs don't live long enough, and they love you even if you're a jerk to them. Don't do anything you'll regret when you're holding them at the vet's office.


I'm sorry to hear that. Good thoughts to you.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Yes she may be restricting her breathing, but as I understand it, dogs have a different attitude about their breathing being restricted. .


You do not understand... You have to have actual experience with dogs to understand.... You have none.... 



> This is how I do it:





> this is the best way I've found to do it.


There is no.... "this is how I do it" or "best way I have found"

You have NOT done it and have found nothing... By your own admission, you have not owned dogs, have not trained dogs... Well you did claim later on that you did train the neighbors dog... Some.... That claim of training the neighbors dog, gave you some serious street cred....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SlabGizor117 said:


> "[The internet] has dignified the prattle of 'dog psychologists who [by their 'kindness',] would rob a dog of a birthright he shares in common with all of God's creatures: The right to the consequences of his actions. There will always be more emphasis and clarity to be had in the contrast between (fair) punishment and reward than from the technique of 'only good, and if they obey, still more good'. And there is more meaning and awareness of living a life that knows the consequences of both favorable and unfavorable action. So let's not deprive the dog of HIS PRIVILEGE of experiencing the consequences of right and wrong."
> 
> "If one takes care to give the dog plenty of slack, the dog perceives its 'abrupt stop and complete reversal' no as a fate visited upon it by the handler but as something it has brought upon itself. Think of an oak tree. A dog may try running full speed into an oak tree once, but it will quickly learn the consequences of its action. Now can you imagine a dog doing that a second time? Does the dog hate the oak tree? Is the oak tree cruel? The right about turn is every bit as impersonal. If the handler presents it without emotion or malice, the dog will perceive it that way."
> 
> ...


Are you claiming this was a quote by Bill Koehler? If so... Baloney.... Bill Koehler died before the internet was a thing.... 
**** Koehler MIGHT have said that.... But I doubt it... No one has heard much of **** since his wife left him and ran off with that Tony guy, whose crappy website you are so proud of...




SlabGizor117 said:


> You wanna know what Bill Koehler thought of trainers like those on this forum? You think I'm bad?
> 
> "I think these humaniacs are the worst enemies that dogs and other people have. A lot of this stuff sounds so nice - "We love our doggies. We're kind to our pets" - The don't really love them, they love themselves, and they love their image of being so kind. And I'll tell you this, when their dog gets killed unnecessarily from running out in traffic, they're very apt to [put a picture in their forum post signature - 'Luna, 2010-2016']. And the poor dog would be alive today if the owner had a spine instead of Jell-O."
> 
> ...


This right here is funny... I am talking Comedy Central Prime Time, Blue Collar Comedy Tour funny....

Bill Koehler was ALWAYS critical of anyone that did not conform. He verbally lashed out at hard core compulsion trainers....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

TSTrainer said:


> How many dogs?


Neighbor's dog.... Well Kinda Sorta....


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> What ziggzmom said, I doubt walking on a loose leash would interfere. Most people teach heel before tracking I assume, and that would be more interfering than just walking on a loose leash. That being said, assuming that's all that's "holding you back" from teaching her not to forge at all, I would suggest teaching her Heel.
> 
> You mentioned her choking herself. Yes she may be restricting her breathing, but as I understand it, dogs have a different attitude about their breathing being restricted. Humans panic any time someone even grabs their neck, but dogs, for the most part, don't. And those who would don't pull hard enough to restrict their own breathing anyways. So I wouldn't worry too much if she's breathing heavy. If she really can't get any air, she'll stop. Although you probably would long before her. I can't say for sure though, I'm not a vet.
> 
> ...


Please come back after you've trained some dogs. Until then, your advice is irrelevant and dangerous to anyone who reads it.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

Willowy said:


> Are you sure Mr Koehler himself said that? I mean, he died in 1993, and, while the internet was a thing back then, as I remember there wasn't much on it. Not a lot (if any, idk) dog forums anyway. I think someone else is trying to pass off their words as his.
> 
> But anyhoo. Just because somebody disagrees with me doesn't mean I'm going to boo-hoo about it. Especially someone whose advice I disagree rather vehemently with. Because I've made up my own mind without someone else feeding me talking points.


That's why I put brackets. The original quote said magazine in its place.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Are you claiming this was a quote by Bill Koehler? If so... Baloney.... Bill Koehler died before the internet was a thing....
> **** Koehler MIGHT have said that.... But I doubt it... No one has heard much of **** since his wife left him and ran off with that Tony guy, whose crappy website you are so proud of...
> 
> As I said already, there are brackets around that, ya know, the thing that you put in when you edit a quote. The original quote used the word magazines.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You are not using those correctly. Square brackets are used to clarify meaning, not to change it. You can't swap "the Internet" for "magazines" or "put a picture in their forum post signature - 'Luna, 2010-2016'" for whatever that sentence originally was.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*sigh* Kuma's Mom? RonE? Mods? Can we have this guy banned? 

I know there are no formal grounds for it. In the past we've had plenty of decent discussions with folks who use corrections, aversives, prong collars, shock collars, whatever... What I love about this forum is its openness to all kinds of dog owners. But this user speaks from *zero* experience. His defense of archaic and abusive methods are not held up by any facts. The methods he argues for are dismissed by any trainers worth their lick of salt, positive or not. There are plenty of trainers whom many here would politely disagree with. But based on the LIES, misinformation, and potentially harmful information this user has time and again presented, I think his contribution to this forum derails threads where others come to seek genuine advice. At worse it may cause some unwitting owner and his/her dog harm in the future. I don't blame other users for responding to his posts because we cannot let harmful, unsound 'advice' go unchecked for anyone who might be looking for dog training help. But this is seriously getting ridiculous.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SlabGizor117 said:


> JohnnyBandit said:
> 
> 
> > Are you claiming this was a quote by Bill Koehler? If so... Baloney.... Bill Koehler died before the internet was a thing....
> ...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So a cranky bully was cranky because some people disagreed with him in a magazine. Sounds about right. Would I expect an abuser to not be cranky about being disagreed with? No, of course not.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Canyx said:


> *sigh* Kuma's Mom? RonE? Mods? Can we have this guy banned?
> 
> I know there are no formal grounds for it. In the past we've had plenty of decent discussions with folks who use corrections, aversives, prong collars, shock collars, whatever... What I love about this forum is its openness to all kinds of dog owners. But this user speaks from *zero* experience. His defense of archaic and abusive methods are not held up by any facts. The methods he argues for are dismissed by any trainers worth their lick of salt, positive or not. There are plenty of trainers whom many here would politely disagree with. But based on the LIES, misinformation, and potentially harmful information this user has time and again presented, I think his contribution to this forum derails threads where others come to seek genuine advice. At worse it may cause some unwitting owner and his/her dog harm in the future. I don't blame other users for responding to his posts because we cannot let harmful, unsound 'advice' go unchecked for anyone who might be looking for dog training help. But this is seriously getting ridiculous.


This. 

We have a poster who is a compulsive liar, never trained a dog, advocated the methods of a man who outright promotes choking, drowning and gagging your dog in the name of breaking down a living being into complete obedience.

Torture. 

This is a disgrace and a real danger to someone who comes and reads this and finds these posts to be a justification for violence against another thinking, feeling being.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Canyx said:


> *sigh* Kuma's Mom? RonE? Mods? Can we have this guy banned?
> 
> I know there are no formal grounds for it. In the past we've had plenty of decent discussions with folks who use corrections, aversives, prong collars, shock collars, whatever... What I love about this forum is its openness to all kinds of dog owners. But this user speaks from *zero* experience. His defense of archaic and abusive methods are not held up by any facts. The methods he argues for are dismissed by any trainers worth their lick of salt, positive or not. There are plenty of trainers whom many here would politely disagree with. But based on the LIES, misinformation, and potentially harmful information this user has time and again presented, I think his contribution to this forum derails threads where others come to seek genuine advice. At worse it may cause some unwitting owner and his/her dog harm in the future. I don't blame other users for responding to his posts because we cannot let harmful, unsound 'advice' go unchecked for anyone who might be looking for dog training help. But this is seriously getting ridiculous.





CrimsonAccent said:


> This.
> 
> We have a poster who is a compulsive liar, never trained a dog, advocated the methods of a man who outright promotes choking, drowning and gagging your dog in the name of breaking down a living being into complete obedience.
> 
> ...


:clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2::clap2:


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

SlabGizor117 said:


> So let's not deprive the dog of HIS PRIVILEGE of experiencing the consequences of right and wrong."


So, I think the thing you're missing here is that a consequence for wrongdoing does not have to be harsh, nor physical. A consequence can be removal of attention, or withholding a reward- for example. Not gaining access to the thing they wanted (like going outside, or sniffing that tree, chasing that squirrel, etc)


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Okay. Let's talk consequences. 

We're looking mostly at operant conditioning here. Yes, that is what the Koehler method breaks down to. Operant conditioning (OC) is all about consequences! OC is an If/Then contingency. This basically means that the dog thinks "IF I do this, THEN this happens." So the IF part is the behavior and the THEN part is the consequence. That means that no matter what quadrant you're working in, you're working with consequences. So right away we see that using OC is not, in fact, depriving the dog of consequences for their actions. 

To break it down by quadrant, here's a fast and dirty look at the types of consequences we see:

Positive Reinforcement (R+) - If I do this, then I get rewards! 
Negative Reinforcement (R-) - If I do this, then the pain/discomfort stops!
Positive Punishment (P+) - If I do this, then the pain/discomfort starts!
Negative Punishment (P-) - If I do this, then the rewards stop!

(As an aside, to actual be reinforcement or punishment, the behavior has to either increase or decrease. It's not just what we think will happen, but what does happen. For example, if someone is lactose intolerant, ice cream might not be much of a reward because it leads to stomach trouble. So if you offer someone ice cream for studying, the behavior of studying might actually decrease because the ice cream is acting as a punisher, not a reinforcer)

Now, looking at those four quadrants, we see a bit of a pattern. Two quadrants deal with stuff that causes pain and discomfort to the dog. That's the choking and drowning and throwing dogs off couches and shock collars and duct taping hunks of wood in their mouths and things like you find in Koehler's book. Basically, half the quadrants deal with "good stuff" and half the quadrants deal with "bad stuff". R+ = Good stuff starts, R- = Bad stuff ends, P+ = Bad stuff starts, P- = Good stuff ends.

So. What it comes down to is choosing to work with good stuff or bad stuff. The dog is going to be learning. On one hand, the dog is learning that you're scary and bad stuff happens, on the other hand the dog is learning that you're awesome and good stuff happens. Now, beyond the fact that recent research has actually shown that pain is actually pretty detrimental and can lead to worse things down the line, why would you WANT to train with pain and discomfort when there are other options available right there?


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

This was my go-to method for about a year, worked for dogs that had average food motivation to high food motivation.

1. Choose a position you want your dog to be in. So where you want their mouth/head to be.(I told clients left side, lined up with my left leg)
2. The position you chose is where you always will reward your dog, never anywhere else.
3. Begin walking.
4. When your dog hits the end of the leash, call their name, turn and walk in the other direction, get your treat out.
5. When your dog is catching up, have treat ready in the spot you chose, and make it easy for them to get it from your hand.
5B. You want your dog to SEE that your hand is right there so they investigate it while catching up, even if its just a sniff, where they hopefully grab the treat.
6. Your dog gets the treat, and you continue walking a bit.
7. Call name and turn back in original direction, reward when they catch up.
8. When they are walking well, call name, reward for correct position.
9. Repeat steps 3-8.

I should note turning the other direction is just so your dog is pulled in your direction. Your intention is not to jerk or whiplash the dog.
If you've got questions or I wasn't clear about something, feel free to ask. Its a lot easier to show than it is to write it out.


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

^I don't think this method would work for me. The way you say reward when they catch up...I'm guessing this is aimed more towards large or slow-moving dogs. I have tried this technique and when I turn around and go the other way there is no time to wait for her to catch up...she has already bolted to the end of the leash in like .005 of a second. She just whizzes by treats and doesn't care anyway. There's also the fact she is small and I am tall, I would have to bend waaaaay down each time to get her to see the treat or lure, and she is moving too fast to notice anyway before hitting the end of the leash again.

all this R+, P-, PG-13 etc stuff gives me a headache >_<

anyway, we are making great progress using her tug toy, and a martingale collar. Dunno what letter that would fall under, but its working for us where nothing else is so that's what we are using. She really is not interested in treats outside, at least not enough to lure her into positions with them. She will take one if nothing else has her attention but will not break her focus on an animal or whatever else has her interest to take it. Even if you wave it under her nose. She also moves too quickly for treat-luring to be effective. She is past the position you want to mark before you can react.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I know she's not food motivated and for that reason I'm not telling you to do this -
but the position stuff relies on the dog KNOWING the food is in your hand, and wanting it before you even start taking this into the world. It also requires the dog understand that 'yes' (or yay or click with your tongue or a clicker) means a treat will be coming. 

It works fine for even fast or small dogs, but the dog has to know you have the treat and has to want it. You also do have to be able to get it in front of them but frankly if your dog has a reward marker all you have to do is click or say yes when the dog hits that spot. The treat doesn't need to be delivered in it. 

Trying to just reward the dog as they pass you again is basically skipping the foundations of the exercise.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

For small dogs, having some kind of wetter treat (like Peanut Butter) on the end of a wooden spoon will help keep you from having to bend down all the time.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I know she's not food motivated and for that reason I'm not telling you to do this -
> but the position stuff relies on the dog KNOWING the food is in your hand, and wanting it before you even start taking this into the world. It also requires the dog understand that 'yes' (or yay or click with your tongue or a clicker) means a treat will be coming.
> 
> It works fine for even fast or small dogs, but the dog has to know you have the treat and has to want it. You also do have to be able to get it in front of them but frankly if your dog has a reward marker all you have to do is click or say yes when the dog hits that spot. The treat doesn't need to be delivered in it.
> ...


I agree with this. And I am going to reiterate as well that a dog that loves treats inside but now outside may do well with some focus/engagement exercises outside first. The dog hasn't been trained to learn outside yet, I think. It reminds me of situations where 'the dog is going crazy outside! how do I teach her to sit?' You don't. You teach her to calm down. Then you can work on sit. I hope that makes sense!
Glad to hear the tug toy and the martingale are working. You can use the same mark and reward principle with toys as well...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> I agree with this. And I am going to reiterate as well that a dog that loves treats inside but now outside may do well with some focus/engagement exercises outside first. The dog hasn't been trained to learn outside yet, I think. It reminds me of situations where 'the dog is going crazy outside! how do I teach her to sit?' You don't. You teach her to calm down. Then you can work on sit. I hope that makes sense!
> .


Yeah, one of my big lessons from this set of dogs is that if the dog loves something - treats, toys, a game - but is losing that love due to a location change there are basically two possibilities: The dog is shutting down or the dog is overstimulated. Both are kinds of stress, both can be worked with and overcome, and both are really, really basic foundation things that, once overcome, will really improve your ability to train your dog. 

It isn't a 'right now' or a 'don't train without it' but it *is* something that is well worth working on.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Bracing for backlash.....

I tried every method, being a tree, changing direction, positive reinforcement, head collar, no-pull harness both separate and in combination, and prong. None really "cured" him of pulling, although I was able to manage him with these tools. I have a 200 lb dog so really nothing including a prong is going to stop him if he is determined to go somewhere fast. It is a case of his attraction to what's out there in the environment is greater to his attraction to me as handler.

He is no longer a serial puller, and he is able to resist the attraction of other dogs and people because I have been able to reach that deep part in him that allows him to be able to ground stress effectively. That exercise was pushing. Nothing to do with LLW, but everything to do with attraction, flow and overcoming emotional resistance and he is now tuned in to me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Mirzam, you get "backlash" because you never explain what you're actually doing. "Pushing" is a meaningless term. And yes, I read the pages you posted about it. It still makes no sense. Why don't you explain the actual steps you're taking to train?


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Mirzam, you get "backlash" because you never explain what you're actually doing. "Pushing" is a meaningless term. And yes, I read the pages you posted about it. It still makes no sense. Why don't you explain the actual steps you're taking to train?


I have explained it and the links I posted also explain it and the video shows how to do it. I am not sure what more you need to understand this concept? Try it. take a treat or a handful of kibble in one hand and use the other (dominant one might be best) and push on the chest of the dog to create resistance when the dog pushes into your hand to get the food let him eat. It is about balance vs hunger circuitry. This has nothing to do with OC/CC, reward/punishment, dominance/submission. This is about flow, attraction, resistance and helping a dog ground emotional stress.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Definitely getting the dog to tune into the handler is key to LLW. That's what all the be a tree, penalty yards and look at me are all about. It's hard for a young dog to remember to keep one ear and eye on the person at the other end of the leash, takes a lot of brain work for that to happen. A lot of people think dog training is like learning the alphabet when it is more like learning to understand language. Be a tree is ABC, getting dog to keep an eye and ear on you is a paragraph.

Mirzam, I get how one trains pushing and can see it could easily be a rewarding behavior for some dogs. How does one incorporate that into training? Give us an example of how you used it early on during a routine walk for instance.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Mirzam said:


> I have explained it and the links I posted also explain it and the video shows how to do it. I am not sure what more you need to understand this concept? Try it. take a treat or a handful of kibble in one hand and use the other (dominant one might be best) and push on the chest of the dog to create resistance when the dog pushes into your hand to get the food let him eat. It is about balance vs hunger circuitry. This has nothing to do with OC/CC, reward/punishment, dominance/submission. This is about flow, attraction, resistance and helping a dog ground emotional stress.


The thing is, I don't see this as a training method. You're not training any behavior, you may be building confidence but that's it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, exactly -- I don't see how it could be incorporated into training loose-leash walking (especially with a small dog). That's what I would like to see explained.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

The behavior is just the outward manifestation of the issue, which is why I said this is nothing about OC/CC, reward/punishment or dominance/submission. This is where you are all confused, because you are trying to fit NDT into a behaviorist peg, and it isn't going to go. I worked with a small dog just this past week, a yorkiepoo who is very leash aggressive. When we began our session he lunged and barked at a dog that walked by. So I sat with him on the grass (we were at a small neighborhood park), got down to his level and spent a good 10 minutes doing "rub-a-dub, which is massage, and some TT work. Then I did some pushing with him. On our way back to his house a dog went crazy barking at him, even closer to him than the dog that just passed us by earlier that set him off. This time no reaction from the yorkiepoo at all, he just carried on sniffing as if the dog didn't exist. This is something that would normally set him off like crazy. The massage and pushing helped him to ground his emotional stress around other dogs. It was quite amazing the difference. Of course, he isn't "cured" and needs more work and definitely more pushing, ideally, he should be fed this way. I demonstrated what his owners need to do, so hopefully they will "push" with him and they will see a dramatic improvement in his behavior.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

So do you ever actually train a dog to do anything, or does "pushing" magically make them do what you want? How do you show them what you want? Many behaviors we expect of dogs are not natural behaviors that a calm dog would simply fall into.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> So do you ever actually train a dog to do anything, or does "pushing" magically make them do what you want? How do you show them what you want? Many behaviors we expect of dogs are not natural behaviors that a calm dog would simply fall into.


Yeah, in this case LLW isn't natural for most dogs. For mine, it has been, but for most of the dogs I teach it is not. They walk faster than us, their senses are more powerful so they are more distracted, and they are stronger than us. Not only that, but I don't think dogs even realize they're attached to us by a leash most of the time. It's totally understandable that terriermom's dog is having trouble focusing outside and is struggling to learn. She needs to learn to focus, it doesn't come naturally to her as a terrier who probably can't wait to go kill something.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> So do you ever actually train a dog to do anything, or does "pushing" magically make them do what you want? How do you show them what you want? Many behaviors we expect of dogs are not natural behaviors that a calm dog would simply fall into.


Just about all the things we expect of a dog, except sit, are analogs of the hunt, so they are natural behaviors.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You didn't answer the question, though. How do you show a dog what you expect of them in a specific instance?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not confused because I'm trying to fit pushing into a peg, I'm confused because doing the pushing exercise and then magically having the dog LLW makes no sense whatsoever to me.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Mirzam said:


> Just about all the things we expect of a dog, except sit, are analogs of the hunt, so they are natural behaviors.


Sitting isn't a natural dog behavior?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> Sitting isn't a natural dog behavior?


Yea also confused about how LLW is an analog of the hunt.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> You didn't answer the question, though. How do you show a dog what you expect of them in a specific instance?


I don't, in fact, I would be praising a dog for lunging and barking, as counter-intuitive as that sounds. In the NDT model, behavior is attraction, fear is the collapse of attraction. 



sassafras said:


> I'm not confused because I'm trying to fit pushing into a peg, I'm confused because doing the pushing exercise and then magically having the dog LLW makes no sense whatsoever to me.


Well, it's your problem that it doesn't make sense because you haven't bothered to read everything I have linked about it because it has been explained clearly in those articles. And it's not magic it's physics. What pushing is doing is balancing the dog's balance and hunger circuitry, which enables us to reach deep inner stress. It is all about moving, and moving well. The five core exercises of NDT, of which pushing is one, give a dog a feeling of movement that he can then associate with a calm breathing pattern, and then he will concentrate on breathing calmly rather than physically moving or reacting when the circumstances might be too tense.




trainingjunkie said:


> Sitting isn't a natural dog behavior?


Of course, sitting is a natural dog behavior, but it isn't one that isn't performed in the hunt.



sassafras said:


> Yea also confused about how LLW is an analog of the hunt.


LLW is very much a behavior seen in the hunt, a wolf will run alongside its prey or "heel".


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

The LLW I want is nothing like running next to a prey animal. I want my dog to know where I am and stay within the orbit of the leash relaxed, sniffing and looking around. It does look like competition heeling is like running alongside a prey animal extremely slowly but I'm not interested in that behavior at the moment.

Wouldn't LLW be more like the pack traveling? Maybe to hunt, members are not looking at each other but know where the others are and are all looking/smelling/hearing what's around them. My dogs can do that IF they are on a flexi. The 6' leash is very confining for them.

Suspect my matwork and circling and backtracking accomplish much the same as sitting outside and doing pushing and massage. Dog is just plain out there absorbing it all. My dogs are much calmer returning home and it has nothing to do with pushing or attuning energies and that sort of thing. They've sorted it all out and aren't shocked/surprised. 

I will certainly work on pushing and would love to read about the other core exercises.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Kathyy said:


> The LLW I want is nothing like running next to a prey animal. *I want my dog to know where I am and stay within the orbit of the leash relaxed, sniffing and looking around. *It does look like competition heeling is like running alongside a prey animal extremely slowly but I'm not interested in that behavior at the moment.
> 
> Wouldn't LLW be more like the pack traveling? Maybe to hunt, members are not looking at each other but know where the others are and are all looking/smelling/hearing what's around them. My dogs can do that IF they are on a flexi. The 6' leash is very confining for them.
> 
> ...


Your form of LLW is certainly like a pack of wolves heading out for the hunt. Dogs like wolves go by feel, by emotion.

Massage (rub-a-dub) works like a grounding force in the shoulder blades. Is that what matwork, circling and backtracking achieve? Normal activity, positive experiences, and physical exercise cannot resolve the deeper levels of unresolved emotion because they cannot trigger this energy. In NDT, we train a dog to push to overcome resistance in order to get something the handler wants the dog to have – for two reasons. First, for access the energy held in the dog’s emotional battery, particularly the deepest layers. This teaches the dog to tune into the handler no-matter-what. Secondly, as the means of its resolution. This teaches the dog to attune to handler, no-matter-what. Is that what matwork, circling and backtracking aims to achieve?

I am happy you are at least willing to work on pushing, it will take some dogs a while to get it, so persevere, I am sure you will see results.


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

I think the most important thing I am learning here is that trying to get dog training advice from a forum is a bad idea. There's too much conflicting information and points-of-view, and no one actually shows their methods in action. Can anyone link me to some good videos showing, especially, p+ methods in action?

the above post was just confusing as hell, for example. what the heck is matwork, circling and backtracking? deep inner stress and resolving deeper levels of emotion? What is NDT? Why is a dog feeling 'stress' such a bad thing? Stress is a big part of life and every living creature learns by experiencing stress. It's impossible to prevent a dog from learning some lessons in a negative way. He isn't going to learn not to catch bee's by being rewarded for not being stung. He will learn not to catch bees as a result of the pain in his mouth. Also some of these methods seem to be geared more towards breeds like labs and such...very food motivated, high desire to please their human. not all dogs care about such things.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqURxL6v4ds

And stress for a dog isn't necessarily bad, but if the dog is stressed and not listening it has a-) not learned to deal with stress/has no coping mechanisms and b-) probably isn't going to learn.

Could YOU take a math exam and pass while you were surrounded by a rave? Even if you really liked being there or maybe especially if you did? Or when you had something you were afraid of three feet away? Because taht's what you're asking your dog to do.

Yes, learning to cope with stress is part of learning. A SEPARATE part.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Matwork - google will give you a ton of results. This pushing thing and terms associated, IDK, it all bewilders me.

That said, it's not meant to be snarky I just can't answer it all right now. Asking questions is good. Asking for definitions is good. Asking for book recommendations would be great. 

Either way, you being stressed and not getting it because of delivery and lack of clear, concise, agreement and criteria and example and being told when you've got it? pretty good analogy for dog training! Particularly the 'I don't have the foundation skills and knowledge to understand what you are suggesting to me/asking of me, the leap is too big'.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

CptJack said:


> And stress for a dog isn't necessarily bad, but if the dog is stressed and not listening it has a-) not learned to deal with stress/has no coping mechanisms and b-) probably isn't going to learn.
> 
> Could YOU take a math exam and pass while you were surrounded by a rave? Even if you really liked being there or maybe especially if you did? Or when you had something you were afraid of three feet away? Because taht's what you're asking your dog to do.
> 
> Yes, learning to cope with stress is part of learning. A SEPARATE part.


Did I say that all stress was bad? We cannot progress without stress, it is the ability to ground stress that is what is required.


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## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

CptJack, Mizram, and Kathyy; do you have any videos, like on youtube, of you training and working with your dogs? I'm interested to see all these points of view in action.

edit; oops missed that you linked a vid in your post cptjack. Ok so that video made sense to me. This is what I'm doing with my dog. If she walks nicely she gets what she wants...play with the tug toy. However I'm not physically capable of constantly bending over into the dogs face to get their attentnion like he is so I tug on the leash. I gather some people would consider that 'negative', therefore stressful, therefore abuse?

also...he is in a completely vacant area...that's not realistic. looks like everyone has been cleared out for the cameras. where are the people, traffic and other distractions? Why is this guy training the dog in the middle of the road instead of the sidewalk?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I do not have actual training video (where I'm teaching something new), but if it would be helpful for you to see I will be happy to make one. Just let me brush my hair and get through lunch first.

...and while I think of something new to teach.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

NOTE: I was typing this as I was researching, in a nutshell Natural Dog Training (NDT) is some positive reinforcement, some punishment, all wrapped in an unnecessary frilly package. It is not based in science at all. It is all based in how one guy feels it works. See the last part of this post especially. This guy makes absolutely no sense.

---------

After some limited research, I feel like Natural Dog Training is like R+ training with some TTouch elements or unsubstantiated spiritual elements. What bothers me about the website is it is very wordy without really telling you much in the way of techniques. Sure I can appreciate working with the dog on an emotional level. But I feel like it's essentially repackaging theories and methods that already exist. I'm cherry picking here, but really I start to read something and think "okay, that sounds like positive reinforcement" then get to the next paragraph where the writer passively denounces positive reinforcement, "This is why positive training can actually inhibit camaraderie and busy work can feel deadening."

He writes about aggression, "The answer is to increase a dog’s emotional capacity so that he can process stress differently. The goal is not to change the dog, but to change how the dog responds to stress."
You change the dog's emotional state to the trigger so that he chooses to respond differently. If you "change how the dog responds to stress", if you "increase a dog's emotional capacity," you are changing the dog. But "the goal is not to change the dog"? 
And I'm thinking, alright I think he is talking about counter conditioning without calling it counter conditioning. But I have been unable to find videos of NDT used in aggression cases.

This blog about food goes against everything science has written about reinforcement and rewards:
https://naturaldogtraining.com/frequently-asked-questions/why-does-ndt-use-food/

"Now in NDT I do use food, however not as a reward, or, technically speaking, even as a reinforcement. I use food as an emotional ground. Obviously it’s convenient to speak colloquially with the terms reward and reinforcement since everyone else talks this way, but nevertheless it proves vital to make the distinction."

It's not simply convenient, it's fact that rewards such as food are reinforcers that increase behavior. Classical conditioning is always happening alongside operant conditioning, so using food will 'naturally' and 'emotionally' make the dog feel more positive about you and the task at hand. I see no value to calling it something else. It's not speaking colloquially, it's speaking honestly.

In the same article he writes: "Dogs are emotional beings, not learning machines."

I argue that dogs are both. If dogs (and other animals) are not learning machines, how were Skinner's boxes, raw and cold operant conditioning puzzles, so unanimously successful in having their 'test subjects' perform a meaningless task? But it takes the emotional side for the dog to choose to make decisions.

Here are some videos I found on youtube:





Okay, so it's mark and reward training but instead of just giving the dog a reward you put some oppositional reflex exercise into it. I can see how that may make a dog more keen on getting to you though I think you can get a solid stay and recall without it as well.





This one just looks like beagles doing really cute tricks. She is even using a clicker.





The founder himself, Kevin Behan. The way I see it step 1 is, is food a reinforcer for this dog, step 2 is using a lure, step 3 is oppositional reflex.

I guess what bothers me about NDT is it seems a little frills and ribbons to me. It feels like it's trying to repackage something that's already there, and cheaply. I approached the theory with an open mind. I am very much open to things I cannot explain, things that are more spiritual than tangible. I appreciate things about dogs and all animals that may not be simply explained by science (Carl Safina's recent book "Beyond Words: How Animals Think and Feel" is very anecdotal, beautifully written, and will make you question how much we think we know.) 
But I fail to see how this method of dog training is ground breaking. If there was just an explanation on the "push" aspect of it and how it may add to R+ training, that may help. At most it seems wishy washy and based in how one man interprets emotions, cooperation, and wolf behavior. At least it seems to not contribute to the harsh correctional aversive type of training that also exists...

CORRECTION. This is the last video I found with Kevin Behan himself. I take back everything that I said and now think this guy is just another delusional, self labeled trainer. In this video he has a dog on a prong and a choke collar (why is that even necessary?). Kevin is using a ton of unnecessary cues. He puts the dog in uncomfortable situations, and he explains the lack of aggression as: 1. You startle the dog 2. I play 'push' with the dog and the energy that would be aggression towards you is dissipated through me. I see a confused dog that only knows how to play the push game and has probably been corrected so that he is afraid of showing any signs of discontent. 





A commenter asks "Why the prong collar?" Kevin's answer is "In my approach I consider the pinch collar to be a precision instrument rather than a correction device. By this I mean I can use it to deliver a fine grained input that increases the dog's attraction to the handler and away from its dysfunctional pattern. It should be likened to a Pavlovian Input that elicits what we want the dog to do, like the bell chime arousing the salivary and gastric juices.﻿" Delusional. Case closed.










And for those of you reading at home, the pinch collar here is more operant than classical (Pavlov). Pinch means pain. So behavior+pinch=less behavior. Sure there can be a classical association as well (dog associates collar with bad things). But the way Kevin is describing it is absolutely wrong.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Terriermon said:


> I think the most important thing I am learning here is that trying to get dog training advice from a forum is a bad idea. There's too much conflicting information and points-of-view, and no one actually shows their methods in action. Can anyone link me to some good videos showing, especially, p+ methods in action?


That's the beauty and bane of forums. Everyone has a different opinion but the fact is every dog is different and there truly is no one size fits all. The advantage to having multiple people post is, if the person is a good trainer, you get some insight on the proper use of a technique that you can then try. The challenge is finding what works best for you. Added to that are posts that may suggest techniques which may be harmful. But you can see that by far the most common techniques being recommended to you are positive ones, rewarding your dog in position and creating a training environment in which he can focus on you. Not rewarding pulling by stopping and turning whenever he pulls.

It must be frustrating for you to see arguments erupt on your post where you are genuinely seeking help. I think it is a hugely important part of forums because although this is your post, anyone in the world can read it. Those of us who care want to prevent unsuspecting owners from seeing Koehler and Behan methods and thinking they are safe to use with their dogs. I mean, look at the monstrous post I just made. I am a professional dog trainer and I couldn't even figure out what was going on with his techniques until I found the video that showed it all. A dog owner who peruses his website may be equally confused or think that all that talk about emotional connection means this guy is to be trusted, when in fact he is not.




Terriermon said:


> also...he is in a completely vacant area...that's not realistic. looks like everyone has been cleared out for the cameras. where are the people, traffic and other distractions? Why is this guy training the dog in the middle of the road instead of the sidewalk?


In good training, you start in the area with least distractions and slowly as distractions as the dog progresses. That is good setup for training.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Here. Totally unedited - and complete, at < 4 minutes training session. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZtBFDCXg-Y&feature=youtu.be

Perfect mechanics and timing? No, but no one is. Certainly my POV, complete with food, toys, and luring.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And for the heck of it: 

https://youtu.be/uW-lk3gC5FI

Her playskills have improved a lot, too!

(This is also training - for out, catching the toy, and retrieving. It's just not all brand new. Frankly she enjoyed the behavioral training session as much as she did the one that was more recognizable to PEOPLE as play.).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> In good training, you start in the area with least distractions and slowly as distractions as the dog progresses. That is good setup for training.


Yep and sometimes? That is my living room. Sometimes, it's my yard. Sometimes, it's a park at 6 a.m. No, I can't always have totally empty space, but I can choose to avoid as much as possible, and arrange to do so at the start.

Plus, once the dogs learn that what's 'out there' and not you isn't relevant to them, the distractions become less distracting.

ETA: Also I want to be clear? That combined not 5 minutes? That's the whole training session. I might do another one today. I also might not. Who knows, but if I do? It will be something entirely different.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

> After some limited research, I feel like Natural Dog Training is like R+ training with some TTouch elements or unsubstantiated spiritual elements. What bothers me about the website is it is very wordy without really telling you much in the way of techniques. Sure I can appreciate working with the dog on an emotional level. But I feel like it's essentially repackaging theories and methods that already exist. I'm cherry picking here, but really I start to read something and think "okay, that sounds like positive reinforcement" then get to the next paragraph where the writer passively denounces positive reinforcement, "This is why positive training can actually inhibit camaraderie and busy work can feel deadening."


I disagree with your conclusions and think they are based on a cursory look at what Behan is doing and trying to understand it through a behaviorist point of view. You, as a trainer do what you do, I as a trainer will do what I do. If you get great results wonderful, I think I get better results with NDT, actually I know I do. But it is an uphill battle for us NDT trainers we are going up against the megalith of the behavioralist/veterinary industrial complex, of which OC/CC trainers and behaviorists are major players in dogdom.

https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/whats-the-difference-between-ndt-and-lurereward-training/



> So the question is, am I using behavioral principles of learning without knowing it, with the downside therefore being an inefficient use of same, or, are behavioral learning practitioners using principles of energy without knowing it, with the downside therefore being an inefficient use of same?
> 
> First of all, learning isn’t everything. An energy theory of behavior recognizes that there are two emotional values innate to all animals (these are the predatory and preyful aspects). These two values blend to compose an animals’ sense of other beings as an overall resistance/conductivity value. These values are not learned and yet they are not instincts, i.e. hardwired into genetic fixed action patterns. Rather these values when combined can “float” in an animal’s mind on a gradient ranging from highly conductive (preyful) to high resistance (predator), and this ratio can shift in an animal’s perception by way of emotional context, i.e. the emotional conductivity of the moment depending on circumstances as well as the ambient mood of other beings. The main determinant of conductivity is whether or not the dog feels aligned with the objects of its attraction. Attraction and alignment is the basis of social behavior because being aligned with an object of attraction is the prerequisite for flow.





> In practical application, millions of dog owners using learning theory are rewarding their dogs with cookies when their dog sits or heels, as opposed to what they don’t want the dog to do, such as jumping on a stranger or lunging at another dog, the “counter-conditioning” approach. But in NDT terms, if the stimulus (stranger or dog) represents 500 volts of stimulation, and sitting for a cookie represents 200 volts of satisfaction, then in fact the dog is not learning what the owner presumes it is learning. The cookie doesn’t satisfy the intensity of the attraction (which is why so many dogs appear to not be food motivated) and so the dog still feels an emotional shortfall even if it were to sit. The underlying dynamic of turning resistance into flow wasn’t channeled into sitting; 300 volts have been left on the table and out of the equation. The dog may have learned to sit on a cue, but he still feels that something profound is missing from what it is doing. The dog doesn’t quite feel RIGHT by sitting even if this state of conflict isn’t immediately apparent to the trainer. Whereas a dog will happily sit, down or come when called, without being in conflict, if by so doing it feels as if it turned the resistance inherent in a stimulus into a feeling of flow by the act of sitting, heeling, staying or coming when called. It’s the turning of resistance into flow that creates compliance without conflict, and autonomically generates the behaviors we want from our dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, I just like facts and science. 

And there is none of that in NTD. Like - there is an attempt to explain a theory, but the only real theory I get is 'make yourself more interesting than the environment' dressed up with a whole lot of words usually seen when discussing electricity. 

And there is no electricity/current here, so. 

Yeah. I'm sticking with science based training. 

And that is ultimately your uphill battle, as it were. It just doesn't make logical sense, there is no evidence - both concrete and supporting. There's a lot of words, a lot of theory, not a lot of facts or evidence. 

That's a ship that is, yep, going to have an awful hard time sailing.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Honestly, I just like facts and science.
> 
> And there is none of that in NTD. Like - there is an attempt to explain a theory, but the only real theory I get is 'make yourself more interesting than the environment' dressed up with a whole lot of words usually seen when discussing electricity.
> 
> ...


Wrong. In fact NDT is based on science, physics actually, thermodynamics it's so-called science-based training that isn't. It is out-dated and has proven to be false by newer research.

Clearly, you are not able to grasp what Kevin is saying otherwise, and you certainly haven't spent any time actually reading what he writes, granted his blog has thousands and thousands of pages of his writings, but even so....

https://naturaldogtraining.com/freq...-undefined-explanations-like-emotional-circu/


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

"In practical application, millions of dog owners using learning theory are rewarding their dogs with cookies when their dog sits or heels, as opposed to what they don’t want the dog to do, such as jumping on a stranger or lunging at another dog, the “counter-conditioning” approach. But in NDT terms, if the stimulus (stranger or dog) represents 500 volts of stimulation, and sitting for a cookie represents 200 volts of satisfaction, then in fact the dog is not learning what the owner presumes it is learning."

Glad it works for you, Mirzam. But imagine trying to explain to a owner at her wit's end the "voltage of stimulation" in attempting to help her with her dog. You know why NDT trainers are fighting an uphill battle, as you say? Because these explanations are not accessible to the common public.

And if you want to defend what Behan is doing, why not explain this video which I've already posted:





Nothing like taking it from the man himself. I'll tell you what I see:
-Approaching the dog, ineffective and unnecessary use of the "stay" cue. The dog neither stays in position nor has a chance to demonstrate staying at an open doorway because Behan just grabs the dog by the collar. 
-:24, he gives the dog a jerk on the choke chain. Why is that necessary? What voltage or energy transfer does that do any good for?
-:40 onward... He first takes out a treat and uses it as a bribe to get the dog to "Speak" and sloppily repeats his cue over and over. There are beginner trainers out there who can have their dogs bark off leash, no treats in sight, without needing to lay a single finger on them.
-1:30 onward... Why have the dog lie on the ground against his will so that the cameraman can touch his belly? 
-2:12 onward... This is possibly the most ridiculous part. Behan instructs the cameraman to startle the dog (the dog is not startled at all), then Behan uses some oppositional reflex "the push absorbs the shock so it's grounded, therefore there is no aggression"

It must be Christmas because I found another video of the man himself working with another GSD






In this video the dog goes down on cue but, get this... SHOWS ABSOLUTELY NO DESIRE to approach Kevin even as he uses inviting release cues. Any attempt at an approach is made with a low tail and much hesitation, before the dog bails out completely. The video is titled "compulsion as a releaser" and as usual there is no clear idea of what exactly is going on.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Clearly, you are not able to grasp what Kevin is saying otherwise, and you certainly haven't spent any time actually reading what he writes, granted his blog has thousands and thousands of pages of his writings, but even so....
> 
> https://naturaldogtraining.com/frequ...otional-circu/


I've spent some time trying to read what he writes. Homestly, I find it all utterly incomprehensible. The words are real words, but the combinations they're in make no sense. He contradicts himself many time in one paragraph, makes sweeping assumptions, and uses wrong definitions. If anybody wants NDT to be more popular, it's going to have to be presented in a way that normal people can understand. Reading his writings is like listening to a mentally ill person explain how they know the aliens are stealing their brain waves .


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Does anyone want to interpret his article on how resource guarding doesn't really exist?

https://naturaldogtraining.com/rescuing-bixie/bixie-finds-a-bone/


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Canyx said:


> "In practical application, millions of dog owners using learning theory are rewarding their dogs with cookies when their dog sits or heels, as opposed to what they don’t want the dog to do, such as jumping on a stranger or lunging at another dog, the “counter-conditioning” approach. But in NDT terms, if the stimulus (stranger or dog) represents 500 volts of stimulation, and sitting for a cookie represents 200 volts of satisfaction, then in fact the dog is not learning what the owner presumes it is learning."
> 
> Glad it works for you, Mirzam. But imagine trying to explain to a owner at her wit's end the "voltage of stimulation" in attempting to help her with her dog. You know why NDT trainers are fighting an uphill battle, as you say? Because these explanations are not accessible to the common public.
> 
> ...


Did you notice the dog was not only wearing a choke chain, but a prong collar?

Sounds cool in theory, but watching the videos makes no sense to me.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Here is Willie's story:



> This dog is highly aggressive and was somehow rescued from a sketchy neighborhood in New Jersey. After riding for several hours in a car to be transferred to a foster, he bit the transport driver severely in the shoulder when she was getting him out of the car, unfortunately causing nerve damage. He becomes highly attached to his caregiver, but will not tolerate outsiders. In fact, this attachment, which I call “addiction-to-owner syndrome” insulates him from being social with outsiders. I also suspect he has been trained on a bite suit as he leaps towards the shoulders and sustains the bite trying to bring the person to the ground unlike the typical addicted-to-owner dog that is satisfied with the relief from a few quick bites, as painful as they might be, however if it were a dog-on-dog situation, it would just have resulted in a crimping and shaking of a thick wad of fur and loose hide, not too much damage between dogs unless things escalate from there, but with a person that’s a bad bite. I think he’s been trained because were he just to have become rank through the normal course of puppy mismanagement, there would be much more fear in his aggressive behavior.


https://naturaldogtraining.com/blog/aggressive-dog-and-core-exercises/

And here is the blog that goes with the second video.

https://naturaldogtraining.com/natural-training-methods/compulsion-as-a-releaser/



> The dog featured in this video is petrified of me. She won’t take food, when I look at her she bolts in abject terror, she won’t eat food in my presence, she won’t play with other dogs and when left to her own in the play yard she sits in the corner tuning us all out and looking longingly at the gate through which she desperately wants to bolt. When I take her for long walks she makes a glancing short lived sniff of my pant leg but is constantly circling on the long lead, furtively looking here and there, freaks if I stumble so for every positive there are a hundred negatives, fear reinforcements that far outweigh anything positive derived from the walk. If I didn’t leave a long enough line on her in the play yard I could never get close to catch her, and with the snow pack high she might go right over. There is no positive way into her mind (hunger) and so I’ll have to get in through the negative pathway (balance).


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Canyx said:


> Does anyone want to interpret his article on how resource guarding doesn't really exist?
> 
> https://naturaldogtraining.com/rescuing-bixie/bixie-finds-a-bone/


You need to do a bit more reading on his blog if you don't understand what he is saying. Also, check out the earlier vidoes of Bixie (Kevin's rescue) on youtube or her blog, as he said in the article you linked:



> She exhibits one of the worst cases of food/toy/crate/bottle cap/grooming rage cases I’ve ever seen despite her small size.


It seems like you are really threatened by NDT, I wonder why?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I do not feel threatened at all. I know what I am doing around dogs. I worry for people who attempt to try his methods at home. The way he conducts himself reminds me very much of Caesar Millan. The first video on his Facebook page has him dealing with dog aggression by having an aggressive dog approach two dogs strung up on ziplines so that they have very limited movement (tight enough that they cannot lie down). I don't have the backstory on that one but can you imagine someone trying that themselves?

He wrote in the blog regarding Willie, "Once I did get bitten in the hand after he chewed his way up the lead faster than I could out maneuver him but, speaking to his strong nature, most of the time when I move my hand fast near his eyes, even though it’s in a moment of conflict, he just winces and shrugs it off."

So he took an aggressive dog and tried to maneuver him? Jeez.

Here is my issue. The OP here asked for genuine advice regarding loose leash walking and you brought up this trainer whom you seem to idolize given how strongly you push him to other people and how you quote him in your signature. Yet where in ALL of this is one drop of an actual method that would help the OP? Not a single person here so far has been able to decipher Kevin's scripture. Even if there was any sound advice, what would you suggest to the OP short of apprenticing under Kevin that would help her immediate problem? I don't idolize any one trainer. There are many trainers that I respect. You are the only one here that is stuck with your ideology. I started this morning with no idea who this trainer was and after everything I'm learning about him, I truly did approach him with an open mind. And I am less than impressed. But it doesn't really matter what I think; what matters is the things he's doing in his videos is DANGEROUS if performed by the wrong person and the wrong dog. Yet his explanations are confounding. That is a bad combination.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Canyx said:


> Here is my issue. The OP here asked for genuine advice regarding loose leash walking and you brought up this trainer whom you seem to idolize given how strongly you push him to other people and how you quote him in your signature. Yet where in ALL of this is one drop of an actual method that would help the OP? Not a single person here so far has been able to decipher Kevin's scripture. Even if there was any sound advice, what would you suggest to the OP short of apprenticing under Kevin that would help her immediate problem? I don't idolize any one trainer. There are many trainers that I respect. You are the only one here that is stuck with your ideology. I started this morning with no idea who this trainer was and after everything I'm learning about him, I truly did approach him with an open mind. And I am less than impressed. But it doesn't really matter what I think; what matters is the things he's doing in his videos is DANGEROUS if performed by the wrong person and the wrong dog. Yet his explanations are confounding. That is a bad combination.


I feel like this method was designed to be enigmatic. Our job as dog trainers is to make these concepts as easy to understand for our clients as possible. I don't take dogs and teach them and then return them to their owners. Their owners come and I explain and demonstrate concepts that are already hard for some people to understand (opposition reflex, resource guarding, punishment doesn't work) and then they take their dogs home and practice those concepts. I can't even get through a blog post without wondering what the heck I'm reading. It makes no sense, its like complicated philosophical concepts taught in advanced college courses (I've taken them, believe me!).

It is important that the general public has access to safe and effective training that does not require hours of study. Terriermom deserves an easy-to-understand solution to her very common problem. "Pushing" and "Koehler method" don't belong here.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Mirzam said:


> Wrong. In fact NDT is based on science, physics actually, thermodynamics it's so-called science-based training that isn't. It is out-dated and has proven to be false by newer research.
> 
> Clearly, you are not able to grasp what Kevin is saying otherwise, and you certainly haven't spent any time actually reading what he writes, granted his blog has thousands and thousands of pages of his writings, but even so....
> 
> https://naturaldogtraining.com/freq...-undefined-explanations-like-emotional-circu/


What in the ham sandwich does thermodynamics have to do with behavior???

And the only place I've heard the term "action potential" is in physiology (when the ion channels in cell membranes rapidly change the membrane's electric potential). I'm honestly curious if there is a different "action potential" for thermodynamic systems in general? The site you linked says that all energy is "understood" as action potential. This is confusing to me because the first definition that comes to mind is the mechanical one: energy is the ability to do work (which itself is defined as applying a force over a distance, and force is mass times acceleration, so we are ultimately talking about the ability to move stuff, I guess?). All energy is either potential or kinetic. So...how can all energy be action potential? Does he just mean it literally? That energy is just literally the potential for an action to happen? It's a very confusing way to phrase it, if so. Or should I be looked at internal energy, Gibbs free energy, enthalpy, etc? I have to admit, my knowledge of thermodynamics does not extend much farther than laws One and Two.

He does say a couple sentences later that energy can only be described in terms of the work it can do, which matches up with what I always understood energy to be. So I guess I can just chalk the "action potential" stuff up to a strange turn of phrase. But then he says that these action potentials make "like-minded charged particles" that are attracted to each other to "return the system to neutral." I guess he's talking about returning to thermodynamic equilibrium (maximum entropy) but "like-attracts-like" is the OPPOSITE of what happens. Like charges repel each other, which is why charged particles (I guess we are talking ions here?) move from an area of high concentration to an area of lower concentration (eventually approaching equilibrium).

Then a little farther down, he says that fields (electromagnetic and gravitational) are "social systems." He says this in passing with no explanation of what in the wide world of sports a "social system" is or what the flying corncake it has to do with these fundamental forces of electromagnetism and gravity.

I can't even deal with this supposed connection between thermodynamics and behavior because this "physics" makes less sense to me than Justin Bieber's career. Is this what you mean by "science-based"? Just pulling in some confused ideas from physics? I'm pretty sure that for a training method to based on science, someone has to actually do an experiment at some point. I'd be very interested to read whatever research is connected to this method, if such evidence exists.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think some of this confusion would be cleared up (and made worse) by pointing out the poster we are replying to doesn't believe dogs think - they just feel (as in have emotions).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Luxorien said:


> What in the ham sandwich does thermodynamics have to do with behavior???
> 
> And the only place I've heard the term "action potential" is in physiology (when the ion channels in cell membranes rapidly change the membrane's electric potential). I'm honestly curious if there is a different "action potential" for thermodynamic systems in general? The site you linked says that all energy is "understood" as action potential. This is confusing to me because the first definition that comes to mind is the mechanical one: energy is the ability to do work (which itself is defined as applying a force over a distance, and force is mass times acceleration, so we are ultimately talking about the ability to move stuff, I guess?). All energy is either potential or kinetic. So...how can all energy be action potential? Does he just mean it literally? That energy is just literally the potential for an action to happen? It's a very confusing way to phrase it, if so. Or should I be looked at internal energy, Gibbs free energy, enthalpy, etc? I have to admit, my knowledge of thermodynamics does not extend much farther than laws One and Two.
> 
> ...


Also this whole thing is pure gold.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Are there any peer-reviewed studies or science you can link? I'd be interested to see the research and actually have a look at the studies and how they're put together and so forth.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Mirzam said:


> Well, it's your problem that it doesn't make sense because you haven't bothered to read everything I have linked about it because it has been explained clearly in those articles.


You have no idea what I have or haven't read, lol. 



> And it's not magic it's physics.


It's... physics. Oh, ok.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Luxorien said:


> What in the ham sandwich does thermodynamics have to do with behavior???
> 
> And the only place I've heard the term "action potential" is in physiology (when the ion channels in cell membranes rapidly change the membrane's electric potential). I'm honestly curious if there is a different "action potential" for thermodynamic systems in general? The site you linked says that all energy is "understood" as action potential. This is confusing to me because the first definition that comes to mind is the mechanical one: energy is the ability to do work (which itself is defined as applying a force over a distance, and force is mass times acceleration, so we are ultimately talking about the ability to move stuff, I guess?). All energy is either potential or kinetic. So...how can all energy be action potential? Does he just mean it literally? That energy is just literally the potential for an action to happen? It's a very confusing way to phrase it, if so. Or should I be looked at internal energy, Gibbs free energy, enthalpy, etc? I have to admit, my knowledge of thermodynamics does not extend much farther than laws One and Two.
> 
> ...


Omg someone who knows actual science words and meanings and says things that makes sense yayyy!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Canyx said:


> It must be Christmas because I found another video of the man himself working with another GSD
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Mirzam said:


> And here is the blog that goes with the second video.
> 
> https://naturaldogtraining.com/natural-training-methods/compulsion-as-a-releaser/
> 
> ...


Behan extends his hand like a claw, (strangely reminiscent of CM and his mannerisms -- the only thing missing is the "tsssst" sound) and proceeds to repeatedly ask a dog known to have fear issues to assume a very submissive position. Then, when he releases the dog, for some reason only god knows, Behan raises his 'claw' once again right in the midst of the dog approaching him. Unsurprisingly, at that point the dog aborts its cautious approach, and turns and runs away. 

The man knows absolutely NOTHING about dogs ... not even the fundamentals. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to let him change water buckets in the kennels, at best.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

For the OP: 

I think you are going to find it difficult to teach your dog to LLW in a slightly forward position. Some dogs take to it naturally, but yours doesn't sound like the type. I would suggest training him, at least in the initial stages, to walk directly at your side in heel position. That way he will have a visual frame to gauge himself by, that being your body. Otherwise, without some type of physical reference, he'll have a hard time determining if he's in the correct spot or not. You can always change your criteria slightly in the future, so that he's allowed to be forged ahead a bit.

Also, how much leash are you giving your dog? If you're dead set on utilizing direction changes I'd advise holding the leash so the dog only has a very limited amount of liberty. ie: if he's able to run past you during direction changes, that's too much slack in the leash. Use a shorter length of leash as management.

Ultimately though, I would suggest teaching the dog LLW behavior OFF-LEASH to begin with, as per the video posted earlier in the thread. After he's become quite proficient, has received a strong history of reinforcement, and understands the position and the expectation, THEN you can add in the leash.


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