# Senior and chronically ill dog's support group



## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I was wondering if anyone would like to join me in sharing the ups and downs of caring for an ailing dog.

My pom mix, Pippin, is 14. He was diagnosed with degenerative disc disease 2 years ago. In October he had an ultrasound to investigate a high white blood cell count and it was found that he had a partially blocked bile duct and a kidney cyst. His liver has been affected by the meds he's on for the disc. His back legs don't work right because of the disc. He has arthritis in the front. But he tells me he wants to keep going with happy ears and tail, great appetite and enjoyment of the training games we have started playing again due to the adoption of his new sister, Sybbie, a month ago. Of course, he can only play stationary games but he is enthusiastic.

He is my heart dog. i lost his adopted sister, Hope at 14 to heart failure in March 2015, but I always knew that Pippin held a special place. I suffer from anxiety symptoms and worrying about Pippin is now my hobby.

I guess I'm writing all of this just to get a conversation started and hoping other people will introduce their less able dogs!

There is more I want to do for Pippin. We're going to start physio in about ten days, and his latest blood test showed he was stable. He's not on the max dose of his anti-inflammatories but I don't want to tax his liver further if I can help it, so I'm going to see what chiro/physio can do.


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## Whip (Jul 19, 2015)

I'm sorry about what you're experiencing with Pippin. It's so hard.  It sounds like you're doing great for him, though.

Millie is also 14 and also my heart dog. She is having more and more trouble getting around and is losing mobility and strength in her back legs. She holds them in an oddly straight, stiff way when she walks and knuckles her back paws on the track of the sliding glass door when she goes outside. There have been a couple of times she's been unable to get up for a short period and it's so, so scary. My apartment is all tile and sometimes she seems to have trouble keeping her footing. Her back legs start to slide outwards and she's kind of like a skater who's slipping on ice and starting to slide into the splits.

Millie has always been an active, athletic dog, but long walks are now a thing of the past. About a week ago we had been walking for eight minutes before she started limping. That happened while we were on the crosswalk, too. I carried her part of the way home and then put her down and she was walking normally. Or at least as "normally" as she can these days.

At least DM supposedly isn't painful, though I give her baby aspirin for arthritis.

For a while I was agonizing because she was so unhappy and lethargic. My mom is her second favorite person ever and Millie wasn't reacting to her at all. I really thought we were at the end. It turned out it was that she felt horrible due to a UTI and after a round of antibiotics she improved drastically. She's awfully unsteady and fragile, but cheerful and affectionate. <3

She also does this sleep thing that has nearly given me a heart attack. One time it was especially frightening was when I had been gone all day and half the night. My dogs aren't used to that and Millie no longer has an iron bladder and colon, so I was expecting to find she had had an accident, but there was nothing. She didn't greet me at the door either and I didn't see her in the kitchen or living room, so I went to my bedroom and saw her there in her bed. I called her and she didn't respond. I called louder. No response. I put my hand on her back and rubbed her. Nothing. My heart fell out of my chest and in a panic I sort of shook her and she _finally_ stirred. That was the time it took the most effort to reach her, but she's done that about a dozen times now. I'm afraid that it's some sort of end of life thing and that one day she's not going to wake up no matter what I do.

Today she seems to be having a good day, though.  She's quite animated and happy.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I have a 12 year old failed foster Sheltie. When I got Gus two years ago, he had a chronic cough, hypothyroidism, arthritis, and bone spurs on his spine. Since then, his chronic cough has been diagnosed as chronic bronchitis and he is on an asthma inhaler twice a day. Because of his lung problems, he's prone to pneumonia and he has gotten severely ill with it twice in the past year to where I wasn't sure he was going to make it.

Currently in addition to the inhalers, I nebulize him with an antibiotic daily to hopefully prevent another bout of pneumonia and keep some of his oral antibiotics on hand just in case.

Here's his rescue picture and a more recent one. Who can resist that face?


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Wow, what a difference in Gus! That's amazing.

My Toby is almost 12. Over the past 6 months or so we've really seen a difference in him. His old rear end is just not what it used to be. He can't jump into the car, even using the step we had that plugs into the trailer hitch. We've had to buy some folding stairs so he can get in and out. He can do them, but we have to watch carefully to make sure he doesn't fall off them sideways. Our walks are down from multi-hour hikes to 30-40 minute ambles. He refuses to go out on some of the trails and won't go into the deeper snow anymore. This is a problem because we live in the mountains, in snow country. Finding safe plowed roads around here this time of year can be difficult. But the most heartbreaking thing is watching him get up from a lying position. Sometimes his rear just won't cooperate.

We've got the stairs for the car and we just bought a belt that wraps around him to help him once he can't safely go up and down the stairs. (In our house the living space is above the garage, so he has to go up and down a long flight of stairs to go out.) We'll do what we can to keep him going with dignity.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I had a Ruffwear harness that I used on my Bearded Collie. She needed help getting up from a laying position. She also had Vestibular Disease a couple of times so it helped to keep her balanced. And of course area rugs were our friends. I had a pathway of them around the house.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Wow it all sounds so familiar. Pippin also can't get up from lying sometimes. He seems to do better on floor than carpet though cuz he shuffles rather than steps.

Whip---I experienced that not waking up easily thing with Hope who passed away in March. I have no idea if it was a sign of anything. I know she was deaf, but it was more than that. I'd shake her sometimes and still nothing. Very scary. Pippin also knuckles. When he is having a really bad flare up that's all he can do and he falls over. Right now it seems to just happen when he catches his toe on something, like your door track.

Beardie--Gus is beautiful! I love shelties. Sounds like he landed in the right place. Do you know his history?

Sandakat--what breed is Toby? I'm guess I'm lucky that Pippin is only 12lbs.

Pippin seems to be doing a bit better today. He is stepping tiny steps with his back end rather than sliding his back feet both as a unit. I think the difference is that I took him off a food that had a lot of potato in it. I learned potatoes can inflame things.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Gus came out of a shelter with no history. I had been doing some fostering in the past and when I saw his face, I knew I wanted to foster. I almost had a home for him and it was during the home visit that I realized I didn't want him to leave. 

I recently came across these for older dogs. Not sure how well they work.

https://www.toegrips.com/


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Cool I've never seen that before. In Pippin's case though he seems like sliding his feet is easier but this could help in some cases for sure!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

This is a great idea.

Enjoyed seeing pics of your sweeties and hearing their stories. I have 14 year old Darby, a bichon, who is going downhill in the last year or so. 
She has high ALT, ALP enzymes (liver disease), hip dysplasia and some mass in her chest/abdomen. I'm taking her in next week for an x-ray, since it is growing rapidly.

Since age 9 she has been on metacam (2 days on, 1 day off) for the hip dysplasia. Just this last November, we had to go to every day, and then December added Gabapentin twice daily, and just this month added in tramadol once a day, though today made the decision to go up to twice a day. So her meds go like this: 8am: metacam, gabapentin. 5 pm tramadol, 8 pm tramadol and gabapentin. 

It makes me so sad. She maintains well on her meds for a while and we have to keep playing and increasing. 

She has bad days (pacing, panting and "up-down" which is where she asks for help up on the couch, stays a minute, hops back down, stays a minute, asks for help back up, repeat repeat) and that's when I realize the meds need to go up/more often. She does seem happy, though, especially at meal time, or when my hubby comes home from work. So I guess as long as she's got those happy times, we'll keep plugging along. 

She hardly hears, only loud clapping to get her attention. She sees, but poorly, and will take a few steps and flinch, sometimes at a ray of sunlight, or nothing at all. Step step FLINCH! Poor baby girl. 

It will hurt to lose her. But at the same time, I will be relieved that her pain will be done. As long as she's willing to fight, I'll help her be comfortable.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

BeardieDawg: Gus is gorgeous! I really miss not having a sheltie; please give him a smooch for me!


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Toby is a collie. He weighs almost 80 pounds, which makes everything a bit more difficult than if he was a small dog.

He's MDR1 mu/mu and is very sensitive to almost any medication. So far both meloxicam and Rimadyl have given him awful diarrhea. Steroids made him crazy. When he seems to be in pain I give him the lowest dose of Tramadol, but I hate giving him medication because I have no idea how he'll react.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

My collie is mu/mu and luckily she is the healthy one. So far she hasn't needed much in the way of medication but anything I have given her (that she is allowed to have) has not reacted badly with her.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

3 of my dogs are 13 this year. I don't know what I was thinking when I got 3 dogs the same age, lol. 

Fortunately, Penny doesn't show her age much except she sleeps more now and isn't as active. But she doesn't have mobility problems or any other age-related issues. 

Moose is shaky in the back end and won't eat dry food anymore. Canned only! Which is kinda expensive for a dog his age . But he doesn't seem to have any trouble getting up, and he's eating his canned food just fine. He doesn't seem to be in pain although I'll give him some aspirin when his back end is especially shaky just in case it's caused by pain, but I think it's just age-related muscle wasting. 

Toby is also weak in the back, and has trouble getting up. I got him one of these harnesses: http://www.chewy.com/dog/solvit-carelift-full-front-back/dp/53761 It works great! I have him wear it most of the time but I do need to give him a break from it occasionally because he got a rub spot. I think that was caused by it coming undone (it has some kind of safety release on the legs), so I'm going to try to fasten it in a way that it can't come undone so easily. Hopefully that helps. He's also mostly deaf and maybe a little senile. He'll start eating his food enthusiastically (he's always been a chowhound) but will wander off halfway through. I don't know if he's trying to self-regulate due to decreased caloric needs or if he just forgets he was eating. I've been adding doggie gravy to his food when he stops, to get him to go back to it. I give him aspirin when he seems achy but mostly it's just weakness, I think. When the snow is gone I'll see if more exercise will help, but he can't walk on the snow so for now he's not getting a lot of exercise :/. 

They all seem pretty happy, still like to play and chew and everything they always liked. It just stinks watching them get old .


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

This is Susie, my Bernese cross. She is 12 years old and has really started showing her age this past year. She has trouble getting up when she has been lying down and seems to trip more often. I had her in to the Vet last fall as she went lame on one front leg but must have just sprained it but I put her on Pentosan-Cartrophen which was a shot every week for a month, then I give her one injection a month. Also put her on Green Lipped Mussel capsules. I can't really say that either is doing much for her. He eyesight and hearing seem to be fading a bit.
She sleeps in the kitchen at night though and does sleep really soundly, have to really look to see if she is still breathing.

I don't take her with me in the Van very often as she has trouble getting in and out but her appetite is good and she did not seem to have any problems when the Vet checked her out. Hate to see them getting old.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> This is a great idea.
> 
> Enjoyed seeing pics of your sweeties and hearing their stories. I have 14 year old Darby, a bichon, who is going downhill in the last year or so.
> She has high ALT, ALP enzymes (liver disease), hip dysplasia and some mass in her chest/abdomen. I'm taking her in next week for an x-ray, since it is growing rapidly.
> ...


Sounds familiar too. Metacam didn't work for Pippin. He's on Prednisolone, Gabapentin and Tramadol for the disc disease. Then he has Ursodiol and Zentonil for the liver disease. And finally Aventiclav and Baytril for the bile duct. 

I'm sorry to hear the blindness freaks Darby out. Did it happen suddenly? How was her day today?

What day is the X-ray? I will be thinking of you and her!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Willowy said:


> 3 of my dogs are 13 this year. I don't know what I was thinking when I got 3 dogs the same age(.


I know. I had two 14 year olds until Hope passed away. Went 9 months with one dog then added a 3 yo last month. She has really livened up the place. She is very attached to Pippin already though and shows signs of SA if I take him out without her so I worry how she will be if he goes. I don't want to have two dogs the same age again.


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## Whip (Jul 19, 2015)

Pomom said:


> Wow it all sounds so familiar. Pippin also can't get up from lying sometimes. He seems to do better on floor than carpet though cuz he shuffles rather than steps.
> 
> Whip---I experienced that not waking up easily thing with Hope who passed away in March. I have no idea if it was a sign of anything. I know she was deaf, but it was more than that. I'd shake her sometimes and still nothing. Very scary. Pippin also knuckles. When he is having a really bad flare up that's all he can do and he falls over. Right now it seems to just happen when he catches his toe on something, like your door track.


Oh gosh, I wouldn't wish that frighteningly deep sleep on anyone. For about how long did she do that?
Maybe it's good Pippin has short little legs, so he is able to shuffle without taking bigger steps that at times may destabilize him. I see him in your signature; he's absolutely adorable. <3



beardiedawg said:


> Gus came out of a shelter with no history. I had been doing some fostering in the past and when I saw his face, I knew I wanted to foster. I almost had a home for him and it was during the home visit that I realized I didn't want him to leave.
> 
> I recently came across these for older dogs. Not sure how well they work.
> 
> https://www.toegrips.com/


Ooh, what an interesting invention! I'm going to look into those.
Sounds like Gus was meant to be. 



Willowy said:


> 3 of my dogs are 13 this year. I don't know what I was thinking when I got 3 dogs the same age, lol.


To have three dogs in their teens at the same time is rough.

My cats are littermates and I'm not looking forward to the possibility of losing them both in the same time frame. Old age won't be too long from now as they're turning 10 this year.

I think Moose has earned the spoiling with the canned food. 


I can't believe how much time flies. This doesn't seem like it was that long ago, but it was actually 2006.









And this is Millie in June of last year.









She started graying very early and now _so_ much of her is white, even the backs of her legs.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Things I've observed with Shep (15yo Lab mix) that may help others:
1. The Vet suggested Tramadol and Gabapentin for pain. Both helped, but Tramadol seemed to increase how much Shep slept, so we stopped, and the pain didn't seem too bad with just Gabapentin (and glucosamine). I paid close attention for a couple of months both with and without.
2. Shep's loss of vision seems mainly a loss of peripheral vision. He can see movement and he can see OK directly in front.
3. Loss of hearing was also due to an ear infection that meds from the Vet cleared up... still reduced hearing, but not as bad.
4. Glucosamine (Cosequin® DS Plus MSM from Costco) seems to help, and seems harmless.
5. Exercise, even off leash and at his own pace, seems to make a big difference.
6. Shep seems Much better in cold weather than in hot weather (contrary to Arthritis pain), so I believe some of his pain is due to nerve issues, which may be one reason that Gabapentin helps so much.
7. If I am careful and patient, Shep still loves training and learning new tricks....


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

I have a 16 year old mutt names Bear but thankfully aside from some hearing/vision loss, a bit of senility, and (what I call) mild standing seizures he's quite healthy yet. He can still run around like a fool and appears to have no pain from arthritis. He does mostly sleep all day. 
He has had a few of those deep sleep episodes where I have literally shook him and yelled his name and he still didn't wake up but he's had the very odd one for a couple years now and is still going strong so I don't think it's anything really to do with him possibly dying soon. 
We are getting his teeth done on Friday which does make me a bit nervous for putting him under. Will do the pre bloodwork, but he need to have them done or he won't have a comfortable mouth.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom I need to call today and make an appointment for her. Had to run into town to give Dh his forgotten wallet and now the pest control guy is coming any time now. Then I'll call and set something up. 
I at least want her to palpate and take an X-ray to see what's going on. 
i'll let you know. 

This thread is bringing me a lot of comfort, thanks for starting it!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Oh and Darby's blindness has been gradual over th last couple years. So she's had some time to adapt. She has the floorplan of the house memorized, and I don't move furniture around too much or she will smash into it.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Whip--the deep sleep thing happened about once a week for around a year. I never remembered to mention it to my vet so I don't know if it had anything to do with anything. 

Fourdogs--I'm glad! I feel really supported too. Is the mass external or internal? Hope had a lump that got to be like half a football (on a 10lbs dog!) and I was told it was just a lipoma until I switched vets and they said it was cancer. They removed it all and she never had any further problems with it.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

MysticRealm said:


> I have a 16 year old mutt names Bear but thankfully aside from some hearing/vision loss, a bit of senility, and (what I call) mild standing seizures he's quite healthy yet. He can still run around like a fool and appears to have no pain from arthritis. He does mostly sleep all day.
> He has had a few of those deep sleep episodes where I have literally shook him and yelled his name and he still didn't wake up but he's had the very odd one for a couple years now and is still going strong so I don't think it's anything really to do with him possibly dying soon.
> We are getting his teeth done on Friday which does make me a bit nervous for putting him under. Will do the pre bloodwork, but he need to have them done or he won't have a comfortable mouth.


If you want to be really safe, you could ask for a pre-surgical ekg.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin has a red area on one toe. There was a scratch there which seems to have healed but now there is a red area. I've been debating for days on whether or not to get it looked at. His insurance doesn't cover the consult itself and its like $90 which of course I would pay if it didn't seem so minor. At the same time, he might have a compromised immune system from the steroids and need to have it treated. I think I will have it looked at.


....just made an appointment for Sunday. Soonest I could get with one of my preferred vets. There are a bunch at our clinic but he has such a complicated medical history I didn't trust the new doctor who was available sooner. Is this dumb and paranoid?


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> Whip--the deep sleep thing happened about once a week for around a year. I never remembered to mention it to my vet so I don't know if it had anything to do with anything.
> 
> Fourdogs--I'm glad! I feel really supported too. Is the mass external or internal? Hope had a lump that got to be like half a football (on a 10lbs dog!) and I was told it was just a lipoma until I switched vets and they said it was cancer. They removed it all and she never had any further problems with it.


It's internal, you can feel it begins somewhere under her rib cage and is now taking up half her abdomen.  Calling for an appointment in just a moment.

Ok, got an appointment for 2pm Monday, for exam and x-ray. I won't do surgery for her, as the risk of that would probably kill her alone, but I just would like to know what's going on in there, to understand. <sigh>


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> Pippin has a red area on one toe. There was a scratch there which seems to have healed but now there is a red area. I've been debating for days on whether or not to get it looked at. His insurance doesn't cover the consult itself and its like $90 which of course I would pay if it didn't seem so minor. At the same time, he might have a compromised immune system from the steroids and need to have it treated. I think I will have it looked at.
> 
> 
> ....just made an appointment for Sunday. Soonest I could get with one of my preferred vets. There are a bunch at our clinic but he has such a complicated medical history I didn't trust the new doctor who was available sooner. Is this dumb and paranoid?


I don't think it's dumb or paranoid at all. Knowing what it is will bring peace of mind/plan of attack, you know?


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

The vet's office just called and squeezed us in at 4:30  So we will know much sooner what's in there.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> The vet's office just called and squeezed us in at 4:30  So we will know much sooner what's in there.


What did they say?!? I am so concerned for you guys!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin's toe looks better but he hardly ate dinner and has been having accidents. He was excited at training time and my dinner time though. His mobility has gotten significantly worse the past month though so I increased his steroid tonight.

This afternoon my dad tried to tell me it was time to put Pippin to sleep. I don't think he's done with the things he likes so I don't think my dad is right. I can't stop thinking about it though. It really upset me. I know he hasn't got long but that doesn't mean I should just give up. He isn't on the max dose of the steroids which have really helped him in the past so let's try upping that first before doing anything rash, shall we?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin just finished his dinner! Yay! I feel better.


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## buttonlady (Mar 2, 2011)

Pomom said:


> Pippin just finished his dinner! Yay! I feel better.


Wonderful, it's great he is still enjoying his meals!

I had a 15 y/o Pom mix who had CHF, renal insufficiency, arthritis, cataracts, and occasional seizures who did well with medical management and a specialized prescription diet for years; her last few months, however, she lost the joy of eating, and steadily lost weight no matter what my vet or I did. I made the decision to put her to sleep the night she refused to eat baked chicken from my hand; she did not seem to be in any pain, but did seem tired; the next morning we took our last car ride together.

I still have 3 Poms, one who will be 15 in May; she is so different, runs and plays like a puppy when she wants to, and only takes thyroid medicine; I am hopeful she has more good years ahead of her.

I also have a 3 year old male, and he, I'm afraid, is made of more fragile stuff than the girls; poor breeding, poor care during his puppyhood, or just poor luck has made me fear his health issues may lead to a shorter life span.

I try to learn from my dogs how to live in today, to not regret a past I can't change or worry about a future I can't control, but it's hard.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Along with Susie, my 12 year old, I also have four Shih Tzu x Maltese that are 4 yrs. 8 yrs, 10 yrs and 11 years old. Kiska, the 10 year old had a slight heart murmur when I had her checked last year when she had her teeth done. They are all doing well and I compete in Agility with the 8 year old. Small dogs seem to age better than larger, heavy breeds.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> What did they say?!? I am so concerned for you guys!


Sorry I didn't reply last night! 

Ok, so it's her liver. It's HUGE. The thing is smushing her spleen down and her kidneys are crammed up and forward in her body. Vet doesn't think it's painful, so that's good (tho she's on some hefty pain meds for her hips, so that could be covering any liver pain). The x-ray didn't show any dark spots, so there's a 50/50 chance of it being cancer (hemangio), which would be consistent with the bloodwork.

Either way, it doesn't change our palliative care plan, and she is feeling pretty good the last few weeks, so that's positive! Vet did mention going up on the gabapentin a little since she seems to get painful before her 2nd dose. 

I decided that she will be eating Honest Kitchen from now on, it's what my old sweet angel girl deserves, some real food. 


And so, we go day by day. Thanks for thinking of her  


I am glad Pippin ate! As long as he isn't suffering horribly in any other way, and you haven't maxed out his meds, I would keep going as long as he's willing. 

Darby's liver disease will get her eventually. We are supposed to look for inappetence, vomiting, diarrhea, orange pee, grey poo and jaundice, especially in the sclera and ears. When we get to that point, I'll be helping her pass. I do not want her to get in horrible shape. Let her go with a little bit of dignity, since she's been such a stoic, proud girl. <3


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> Sorry I didn't reply last night!
> 
> Ok, so it's her liver. It's HUGE. The thing is smushing her spleen down and her kidneys are crammed up and forward in her body. Vet doesn't think it's painful, so that's good (tho she's on some hefty pain meds for her hips, so that could be covering any liver pain). The x-ray didn't show any dark spots, so there's a 50/50 chance of it being cancer (hemangio), which would be consistent with the bloodwork.
> 
> ...


 Oh Darby! It sounds like you both are in good spirits though. Are you ok? I'm glad it's not painful. Is she on any meds for it? Pippin is on Ursodiol, Zentonil and Milk Thistle for his liver. Good to hear she's been feeling pretty good lately. The extra Gabapentin should be good. Hugs!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

buttonlady said:


> Wonderful, it's great he is still enjoying his meals!
> 
> I had a 15 y/o Pom mix who had CHF, renal insufficiency, arthritis, cataracts, and occasional seizures who did well with medical management and a specialized prescription diet for years; her last few months, however, she lost the joy of eating, and steadily lost weight no matter what my vet or I did. I made the decision to put her to sleep the night she refused to eat baked chicken from my hand; she did not seem to be in any pain, but did seem tired; the next morning we took our last car ride together.
> 
> ...


Wow great to hear your 15 yo is still so spritely. what is the 3 yo dealing with? How old is the third one? What are their names? Pics? Nice to know another pom person!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin is feeling better on the increased steroid after only 24 hrs. I normally give him one pill in the morning but gave him another half last night and tonight. He has been able to get up from lying down again and even followed me into the kitchen when I was making his dinner instead of just waiting for the bowl to arrive. He also ate all his meals clean up today. Of course this drug is not good for his already compromised liver, but I think it's unsafe for him to thrash around trying to rise, especially when I'm not home.

In other news, Sybbie starts clicker training school next week. I'm going for orientation on Monday (not supposed to bring her to that) and Monday will be 6 weeks since I got her. Tonight at training time she might have come a step closer to understanding "sit." I was sitting in a different place than I have lately and she just offered it so I named it, clicked, and treated. She seemed really happy like a lightbulb had gone on. She spun around. I said "sit" again and she did it. We are getting there.

I was getting pretty depressed watching Pippin decline before I got Sybbie. Hope died in March and it was just the two of us for 9 months. She has really livened up the family. I am single with no kids so my dogs are key members.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> Oh Darby! It sounds like you both are in good spirits though. Are you ok? I'm glad it's not painful. Is she on any meds for it? Pippin is on Ursodiol, Zentonil and Milk Thistle for his liver. Good to hear she's been feeling pretty good lately. The extra Gabapentin should be good. Hugs!


Yeah, I"m ok. There was one point where she got to where she was having an awful lot of bad days- before adding in gabapentin and tramadol- where I thought the kinder thing to do would be to let her go, and I was in tears over that. Now she's doing better, so we just plug along. I am ok now, I'm sure I'll be wailing when it's time for her to pass. 

I think I'm meeting her end with a lot of anxiety because her mom, Lexi, had a bit of a traumatic passing, where she reacted to the sedative, and although was unconscious, was screaming. It was horrible, and I sure hope it doesn't happen again


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Good for Pippin, glad he's perked up! It's so nice to have meds to be able to give them a little more quality of life!

And I saw about Sybbie learning to sit  Yay! 

I showed my toy poodles and bichons for a few years, and it's true, they only run around the ring and stand pretty LOL. It takes a while for them to unlearn that, but they can!


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## buttonlady (Mar 2, 2011)

Pomom said:


> Wow great to hear your 15 yo is still so spritely. what is the 3 yo dealing with? How old is the third one? What are their names? Pics? Nice to know another pom person!


Thanks, I love to talk to other Pom owners; I came to love Poms later in life, and am learning more about them every day I spend with my guys.

My oldest girl is Maggie May, she came to me at 8 as a retired puppy mill brood; however, she was in better shape than the first retired momma I got, and has maintained her good health, except for hypothyroidism, and now developing cataracts. She truly enjoys being a loved pet, and is happiest being in someone's lap; she is not choosy, she loves everyone.

Button is 7, he is 4 lbs of attitude, he was almost 2 when I got him; he was cryptorchid and unable to make any money for the BYB who had him, was starting to show symptoms of Alopecia X, so he was given away to someone who was unable to care for him, and then came to me. He is absolutely gorgeous to me, and his coat has improved tremendously since neutering and receiving coat care recommended by a dermatologist. 

The 3 year old is Chewbacca, he came from a puppy mill and was surrendered at not quite a year old; don't know his whole history but he was half-starved with all the issues that poor nutrition can cause a growing puppy. He was diagnosed hypothyroid as soon as I got him, has been on replacement therapy since he was a year old, has moderate Alopecia X that has not responded to treatment, has a slight heart murmer, bilateral luxating patellas, has had three anal gland abcesses, and appears allergic to everything under the sun. He is sweet, smart, a whirlwind of activity, loves to fetch, easily trainable and a blessing to my home, but is also a poster child for all the evils that puppy mills can produce in little dogs.

I just make sure that their insurance is up to date!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> Yeah, I"m ok. There was one point where she got to where she was having an awful lot of bad days- before adding in gabapentin and tramadol- where I thought the kinder thing to do would be to let her go, and I was in tears over that. Now she's doing better, so we just plug along. I am ok now, I'm sure I'll be wailing when it's time for her to pass.
> 
> I think I'm meeting her end with a lot of anxiety because her mom, Lexi, had a bit of a traumatic passing, where she reacted to the sedative, and although was unconscious, was screaming. It was horrible, and I sure hope it doesn't happen again


That sounds traumatizing! That makes me want to throw up!

I'm glad the meds have given her more time. When did she start on them?


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> That sounds traumatizing! That makes me want to throw up!
> 
> I'm glad the meds have given her more time. When did she start on them?


It was horrible, very horrible. 

She started on them in December. The gabapentin really helps her a lot!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sometimes I think we are walking pharmacies. My dog before the collie and old sheltie was a bearded collie. She had two bouts of vestbular disease and canine cognitive dysfunction (that I got under control with meds.) She had sever issues standing up but seemed happy with life. I had just started her on gabapentin and she started having seizures, which she never had before. I took that as a sign that it was her time to leave.

I've been readjusting my sheltie's thyroid medicine. What brand do you have yours on? He did fine on soloxine but when it went off the market, I put him on thyrotabs. I had been so busy worrying about his bouts of pneumonia that I hadn't noticed his hair thinning back out and some bald spots. I've just increased him from 3 mg twice a day to 4.5. I think it is helping but it has only been a couple of weeks. Did you just do bloodwork in house with your vet or did you have it sent to University of Michigan or Dr. Dobbs for analysis? I'm not sure if it is worth the extra cost with all his other issues to send it to the specialists.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I do suggest that you ask the Vet if it would hurt to give milk thistle to help his enlarged liver - you might also consider steroids (prednisone?) for the rest of his life, b/c side effects from stopping may also be difficult.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

buttonlady said:


> Thanks, I love to talk to other Pom owners; I came to love Poms later in life, and am learning more about them every day I spend with my guys.
> 
> My oldest girl is Maggie May, she came to me at 8 as a retired puppy mill brood; however, she was in better shape than the first retired momma I got, and has maintained her good health, except for hypothyroidism, and now developing cataracts. She truly enjoys being a loved pet, and is happiest being in someone's lap; she is not choosy, she loves everyone.
> 
> ...


Pippin was a puppy mill rescue too. He was from a raid that the SPCA did. When I got him I think he had never been out of a cage before. He was scared of grass, cracks in the side walk, but Hope was well adjusted even though she was BYB, I had her since 9 weeks old, and he learned from her.

Sybbie has her championship but her breeder didn't guarantee Alopecia X and I think she has luxating patellas. Hope had it too and had surgery on one side.

I love Poms and can't imagine ever having any other breed. Though I also have a soft spot for LHDaschies, Cardies and Shelties.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> It was horrible, very horrible.
> 
> She started on them in December. The gabapentin really helps her a lot!


That's great. I wish Gabapentin had helped Pippin more on its own as it's much safer than the Pred he's on. His neurologist said to put him on gaba too, but I don't know if it does anything as it didn't work on its own.


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## Whip (Jul 19, 2015)

Pomom said:


> Pippin was a puppy mill rescue too. He was from a raid that the SPCA did. When I got him I think he had never been out of a cage before. He was scared of grass, cracks in the side walk, but Hope was well adjusted even though she was BYB, I had her since 9 weeks old, and he learned from her.
> 
> Sybbie has her championship but her breeder didn't guarantee Alopecia X and I think she has luxating patellas. Hope had it too and had surgery on one side.
> 
> I love Poms and can't imagine ever having any other breed. Though I also have a soft spot for LHDaschies, Cardies and Shelties.


I hope I'm not derailing this thread too much, but I'm wondering, how much has Pippin been able to overcome those fears?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Whip said:


> I hope I'm not derailing this thread too much, but I'm wondering, how much has Pippin been able to overcome those fears?


He became very trust worthy and up for adventures except for around dogs bigger than him. Mostly he'd just bark at those dogs but a couple he chased and nipped at their ankles. Never did any damage though and fortunately never had a big dog turn on him! I think the key was having a canine family member who was non reactive. I didn't really know how to deal with it at the time, and just taught him to focus on me when he felt like barking. I guess that wasn't a horrible solution, but it didn't make his fears go away. It did keep him out of trouble though. Now a days he seems to realize he can't start trouble and he doesn't say a word. He also rarely leaves the house/yard due to mobility issues.


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

My 16 yr old (family dog) came out of his teeth cleaning well. He had 13 teeth removed! Which is crazy considering he had his teeth done just a year and a half ago! Maybe that vet didn't do the best job I dunno. This new vet took before and after pictures that really showed a big difference in the color of his teeth.
I went out today and bought toothbrush and paste for both of my dogs. Gonna have to work on it with my pom pup, he wasn't impressed. My 10 yr old poodle was pretty good with it, but then again I 'floss' his front teeth multiple times a week to remove the buildup of dog hair from my grooming shop he gets up there so he's used to his mouth being handled, plus he knows that if I want to do something to him, it just gets done.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

MysticRealm said:


> My 16 yr old (family dog) came out of his teeth cleaning well. He had 13 teeth removed! Which is crazy considering he had his teeth done just a year and a half ago! Maybe that vet didn't do the best job I dunno. This new vet took before and after pictures that really showed a big difference in the color of his teeth.
> I went out today and bought toothbrush and paste for both of my dogs. Gonna have to work on it with my pom pup, he wasn't impressed. My 10 yr old poodle was pretty good with it, but then again I 'floss' his front teeth multiple times a week to remove the buildup of dog hair from my grooming shop he gets up there so he's used to his mouth being handled, plus he knows that if I want to do something to him, it just gets done.


That's a lot of extractions! Glad he came out of it ok.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin is not finishing his food. I've started leaving the unfinished food out and he sometimes finishes it later. I have this suspicion that he's not able to smell that well. I find it upsetting. I guess for two reasons: one, he has always eaten with gusto and I'm afraid it's a bad sign. Two, Hope didn't eat well her last few months. And I'm prone to catastrophizing.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> That's great. I wish Gabapentin had helped Pippin more on its own as it's much safer than the Pred he's on. His neurologist said to put him on gaba too, but I don't know if it does anything as it didn't work on its own.


My vet said the gaba has to be given with an anti-inflammatory to work best. So for Darby, it's paired with Metacam and tramadol added in as needed (iusually I give at bedtime). 

On its own, gaba doesn't seem to work well at all.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

MysticRealm said:


> My 16 yr old (family dog) came out of his teeth cleaning well. He had 13 teeth removed! Which is crazy considering he had his teeth done just a year and a half ago! Maybe that vet didn't do the best job I dunno. This new vet took before and after pictures that really showed a big difference in the color of his teeth.
> I went out today and bought toothbrush and paste for both of my dogs. Gonna have to work on it with my pom pup, he wasn't impressed. My 10 yr old poodle was pretty good with it, but then again I 'floss' his front teeth multiple times a week to remove the buildup of dog hair from my grooming shop he gets up there so he's used to his mouth being handled, plus he knows that if I want to do something to him, it just gets done.


Glad the cleaning went well. I like CET oral rinse, I use it for brushing and it does a much better job than any other toothpastes I've tried. Poodles seem to have the worst teeth. At age two, Jack had a cleaning and they said he had very bad plaque for his age.


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. Luckily my 10 yr old poodle doesn't have too bad of teeth. I have had them pro done 2-3 times, but he has never needed any extractions. I just scaled them a bit today and they actually are looking pretty good. I'll just keep brushing and scaling until they need to be pro done again.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I made an appointment with the local holistic vet to evaluate Toby for acupuncture treatments. It's just so hard to watch him getting up and down. I've tried Metacam and Rimadyl. Both of them gave him diarrhea. He was on steroids once a few years back for an allergic reaction. They made him crazy, so I'm not interested in doing that again. The thing is, I'm not sure if he's in pain or if his rear end is just getting weak. Hopefully the vet will be able to get a good feel for it.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sandakat said:


> I made an appointment with the local holistic vet to evaluate Toby for acupuncture treatments. It's just so hard to watch him getting up and down. I've tried Metacam and Rimadyl. Both of them gave him diarrhea. He was on steroids once a few years back for an allergic reaction. They made him crazy, so I'm not interested in doing that again. The thing is, I'm not sure if he's in pain or if his rear end is just getting weak. Hopefully the vet will be able to get a good feel for it.


I tried a holistic vet for Pippin too but she was way too expensive and our insurance didn't cover it. Laser can be helpful so see if your vet offers this in addition to acupuncture. If it is difficult to do it often there are places that will rent the machine. It is easy to do. I know it's so hard to watch them struggle. I'm planning on starting physio for Pippin with a animal chiropractor. Conveniently, the chiro is my vet's spouse! I hope you get some good results from the acupuncture! Let us know how it goes! When is your appointment?


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

The appointment is this coming Thursday. The vet offers laser and other complementary therapy as well. We're lucky to have her in this small town and people speak highly of her, so I'm hopeful she can help him.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I do lots of homeopathic stuff for my Sheltie's arthritis. I'm thinking it works since I very rarely have to give rimadyl. In the morning, I give a tablet of it used to be called Zeel but now it is T-Relief. It's a human thing that I get in Sprouts or Amazon. I also give a tablet of SOD & Boswellia. The vet that the rescue used recommended that. At night I give a scoop of hylasport. I also do the same on my younger collie since she would favor a front leg from time to time and hasn't done that lately.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

beardiedawg said:


> I do lots of homeopathic stuff for my Sheltie's arthritis. I'm thinking it works since I very rarely have to give rimadyl. In the morning, I give a tablet of it used to be called Zeel but now it is T-Relief. It's a human thing that I get in Sprouts or Amazon. I also give a tablet of SOD & Boswellia. The vet that the rescue used recommended that. At night I give a scoop of hylasport. I also do the same on my younger collie since she would favor a front leg from time to time and hasn't done that lately.


I'm very reticent to give him anything. I don't know if it has to do with his mu/mu status, but he's extremely sensitive to almost every medication we've given him. When he was sedated recently for his teeth cleaning the vet gave him the chihuahua dose of anesthesia and he was still dopey for about 24 hours. Most of the others give him diarrhea. That's why I'm hoping acupuncture or laser therapy help him.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sorry for my ignorance but what is mu/mu?

Sounds like acupuncture is your best bet. I hope it helps! My holistic vet also does traditional Chinese medicine but I didn't end up trying it as Pippin is the opposite of your guy: he has no reaction good or bad to most drugs. He needs higher doses. Probably why his liver is now in trouble.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sodacat was talking in collie/herding dog talk. Both her collie and mine carry the MDR1 gene where they can't process certain drugs. The dog can be completely normal, have one gene for it or worst is two. In worst case scenarios, there is neurological problems and death. Even though some of our suggestions aren't o the problem drug list, her dog still has unpleasant side effects to many things so she is being super careful.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Longhaired whippets are 2nd fromthe top of MDR1; O'Malley's breeder tested all the puppies and he is negative for that and eyes too.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> I do suggest that you ask the Vet if it would hurt to give milk thistle to help his enlarged liver - you might also consider steroids (prednisone?) for the rest of his life, b/c side effects from stopping may also be difficult.


She is on Denamarin, which has silymarin (from milk thistle) and sam-e included. She's been on it since age 9 when her liver enzymes started to rise, they hung out at 228 for all those years, right up till July of last year. 

The steroids would make her liver deteriorate faster, so we decided against that.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

How are all the pups doing today? Is Pippin eating better? How's Toby doing with his weak rear end?

Darby is plugging along. She started to throw up her Honest Kitchen food (I could start a whole 'other thread on that food, but anyway), so I put her on home cooking. This batch is cod and rice (balanced according to Strombeck book). She is holding it down fine. Giving her 3 meals a day. 
She also seems to be dropping weight, another reason for adding in the lunch meal. 

She's also started, within the last months, screaming in the crate. It's driving me batty! (bless her heart!) I don't know if she's senile, or because she doesn't see/hear well. We can't leave her out, or in the bed with us, because she will pee just any old place, or poop. I'm thinking maybe I will baby gate her in the bathroom in our MBR and see if that helps her rather than the crate in the sunroom (with the other crated dogs and bunny). We put them in the crates for bedtime and anytime we run errands, and rarely are gone more than 4 hours at a time. She's been crated since a puppy. I guess one of the joys of aging. 

Fortunately, she's holding well on her current pain meds for her bad hips. When we took the X-ray for her liver, we could also see how deteriorated her right hip socket is. It's completely gone. No socket whatsoever, and the femur has a golf club shaped end. Poor thing. She has much less muscle on that leg than the other, but she uses it ok.

Funny how I bred this one, mother OFA excellent, father OFA good. Sigh.

Anyway, how are your sweeties doing?


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Beardiedawg, thanks for the explanation. I should have clarified the MDR1 thing. Fourdogs, thanks for asking, Toby is a bit stiff this morning. He had a great day a few days ago. He ran up to me a few times and wanted to bounce and play. He's been paying for that for the last few days with a noticeable hitch in his rear end. Poor guy.

Poor Darby. I'm sorry to hear about the vomiting and the screaming at night. I hope you can find a solution that helps her.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks for explaining that, Beardiedawg

Sandakat, hopefully Toby just needs some rest and he'll feel better. The acupuncture is soon too. There's nothing you can really do to keep him from enjoying his good days to the point of ending up paying for it later.

Fourdogs, I'm Glad the home cooking has Darby feeling better. What's your opinion of honest kitchen? Pippin is on three meals too. He has been 5.9kg most of his life on one meal a day. I went to two meals 2 years ago so he could have his pills with food and he went up to 6.2. Recently he went down to 5.6 so I went to 3 meals and he is holding at 5.9 again. Crazy.

I wonder why Darby is crying in her crate. Aging is not for sissies as my 70 year old mother says. How did the bathroom work? Glad her hip isn't feeling too bad.

InkedMarie tg for good breeders.

Pippin pooed and peed in the bedroom last night. He got off his bed but because the floor is tile the pee followed the grout river and soaked into the bottom of his bed. More importantly, I wasn't sure, but I thought I saw blood in his poo. I convinced myself it was just orange from the pumpkin I've been giving him. (I could write a whole thread on all the foods I've tried to get him to eat. The pumpkin worked. I didn't think the not eating was vet worthy though because we still gobbled treats and was begging at my meals.) but then his afternoon poo looked like there was blood in it too. So I plan to take him to the vet tomorrow if I can get an appointment. By the time I made the decision today, they were closed so I don't know if they have any openings. Usually they do, but I was supposed to go out of town tomorrow (taking Pippin and Sybbie) for my orchestra rehearsal. We're not supposed to miss rehearsals unless we get a sub which I could never do on such short notice but I don't care. If I have to miss it, so be it. Pippin is more important. Let them fire me. It's not my main source of income. On the other hand, he has had bloody poo a dozen times in his life and a round of Tylocine has fixed him right up.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Hope Pippin is ok!

Darby did better in the bathroom but wanted to go out at 6:30am. I guess she has to pee! She used to be so good about sleeping in. That means I can't stay up so late or else not enough beauty sleep for me.

Ok... honest kitchen! I WANT to like the food. I have tried for years to feed it. I have feed all sorts of their different formulas. Poop. SO much POOP! They go from pooping 1-2 times daily to 4+ times and ENORMOUS horse plops. Top that off with my chihuahua wants to eat the poop made by honest kitchen. She loves it! (gag!). I tried one of their new formulas just these last couple weeks and POOP. SO MUCH POOP!

That and my poodle didn't want to eat it at all. I think it is just so loaded with vegetable matter, and it's very high in fiber. I can't take the poop when you have four dogs doubling their poop size and frequency. I will remind myself not to buy it again. It works best to do 75% dry (Fromm usually, any of the lines/flavors) and 25% extra, (canned, yogurt, cottage cheese, cooked meat, canned fish, etc). So that's what I'll do.

Although, Darby is getting her strombeck recipes now, and doing fine with them. 

We'll take one day at a time


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin's poop was fine in the morning. Add that to the fact that I was never going to get to my appointment on time due to weather and traffic and I ended up cancelling. I felt a little unsure about the decision but his poop continued to look good all day. I wonder if it was just the pumpkin he's been eating masquerading as blood.

Fourdogs--we had big piles of poop on Wellness Senior. I surmised that there was stuff in there not getting absorbed as nutrients and thus pooped out. I'm not even sure if we get Honest Kitchen in this neck of the woods, but I had only heard good things before so interesting. Maybe it works better for bigger dogs. Not that I'm defending it. Sounds like you gave it a good try.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Sigh. Darby is having a not so good day. She is either sound asleep or whining and pacing. To make matters worse today she isn't wanting to take her pills (home made peanut butter pill pockets). I also tried raw ground meat and hot dogs. Hot dogs was a success for tramadol but for the gabapentin they must taste horrible because she won't even take them disguised. I can try cheese or something else tomorrow but need to get groceries, cupboards are bare at the moment. 

If she can't take her pain meds, that the end of her quality of life. She HaS to take her meds! 

So tonight she won't settle in the bathroom or in an expen by my bed or in her crate and we are all awake and unhappy. Whine pant pace dig (at her blanket) pant whine pace to the bathroom, try the cold tile, whine pace pant. We won't be seeping much tonight. 

Going to have to call her vet in the morning. But one wonders, after having seen three dogs through to rainbow bridge if it's ok to let her go a little early vs a day too late, which is what all my previous dogs have done, too late and really suffering. I don't want to see her decline and go through more pain if she won't take meds. So much doubt and guilt involved here. And right vs wrong. 

This is crappy. I hate this part of having pets. Sigh. 


Thanks for listening to my whine. I'm embarrassed even posting this but what is a caregiver to do. Ugh.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm so sorry to hear that she's not doing well.

As far as letting them go too early, how many cats or dogs have you seen where you think "WHY are they keeping that poor animal alive"? You know your dog better than anyone. With everything she's going through if you let her go now (and I'm not saying that this is the time) you shouldn't guilt yourself into thinking "I can't do it now. She might have another good day". If you do want to wait that's fine, but if you don't you didn't rush her end.

Another way to look at it is what my friend, the breeder that owns Toby's dam, always says: I'd rather send them off on a good day than to wait until they're suffering through their last.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Don't be embarassed, thats why we're here. I hope she takes her meds.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

We had our appointment with the holistic vet yesterday. She's as nice as everyone says she is. She spent the first hour evaluating him and talking to me. It looks like he not only has some hip problems but he may also have either a spinal cord problem or a pinched nerve, like sciatica in humans. He had decreased reflexes on the right and failed the "knuckling test" on the right back leg. She had some extra time, so she did a gentle chiropractic adjustment, which he loved, and an acupuncture treatment on him with both regular needles and some needles with a light electric stimulation. Since he did fine with it, we have an appointment for a second treatment next week. 

I asked her when I might see some results. She says it varies. Some dogs improve after the first treatment, some don't. She recommends giving it 3 treatments before declaring it a failure.

I don't see any improvement yet, but I'm hopeful. I'm glad she listened and wasn't going to try to give him any meds or even supplements.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I think we all feel guilt no matter when we let them go. I guess it's a matter of if you can start to get the pills into her. I use liverwurst as my go to for pills. You can always pill her by hand but I'm not sure that is what you want her last memories of you to be. I had a rabbit with kidney failure and I was doing sub q fluids for a while. About the time he started running from me, I knew I was doing things for me and not him.

Has Toby had spine x-rays in addition to hips? Gus the sheltie has spondylosis which formed bone spurs on his spine. He's not flexible so can't reach certain areas for personal hygiene. Between that and the leg arthritis, his running gate is kind of like both front legs and then the back ones. He also does that kind of bunny hop going up and down the stairs (which aren't a necessary part of the house but a choice of his to go upstairs for my husband when he is working). Luckily he's the one who is MDR1 normal so I can give rimadyl to if need be.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Not from personal experience, but from what I've observed, Tramadol seems to taste very bitter. Gabapentin capsules have no taste, unless Shep chomps on it, then it tastes bad (bitter) but not as bad as Tramadol, but more persistent. Sometimes if I give Shep a few tiny, little treats before and after, he will let me slip a disguised pill in his mouth, as long as I've washed the taste off my hands first. If my hands are wet and I touch a dry tablet or crunched capsule, then the taste transfers...

I haven't tried acupuncture, but we did try Laser Therapy, and it helped for a short time, but may take 3 treatments to start working. In the long run, I didn't think that the short term benefit was worth the cost, but if varies greatly. Gabapentin 3x a day up from 2x a day helps a lot... but Shep weighs 65lbs, if that matters.

Pumpkin - if poop is not runny, just soft, then the pumpkin may be doing its job, so eating and digestion are working. Since pumpkin is just a vegetable, it doesn't hurt anything. You can slowly reduce the amount of pumpkin to see if that helps the consistency and amount.

Letting go too soon - Shep no longer plays, but he likes his walks, he likes his little treats, he loves to go see people, and my Vet had to remind me that Shep is not in much pain and is happy. His mind is sharp, but walking is difficult and I don't know how bad the cancer is - The Vet says either he won't be able to stand, or the cancer will metastasize to his lungs. I think a third 'option' is that he may decide not to eat. Some morning, he doesn't eat, but he's usually hungry by evening. I haven't tried three feedings a day, yet. But, I do a little training and hand feeding at the beginning of meals, now ... and it seems to get him excited, to prime the pump and help. I know I don't want to wait too long, but like you, while the spark is there, I hate to put out the flame, just because the candle is getting a little short.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

beardiedawg said:


> Has Toby had spine x-rays in addition to hips? Gus the sheltie has spondylosis which formed bone spurs on his spine. He's not flexible so can't reach certain areas for personal hygiene. Between that and the leg arthritis, his running gate is kind of like both front legs and then the back ones. He also does that kind of bunny hop going up and down the stairs (which aren't a necessary part of the house but a choice of his to go upstairs for my husband when he is working). Luckily he's the one who is MDR1 normal so I can give rimadyl to if need be.


He hasn't had xrays because he'd need anesthesia for them and he does very poorly with anesthesia. He had basically the chihuahua dose for a recent procedure and it took 24 hours before he was normal. The vet and I discussed xrays but decided not to because it wouldn't change the treatment at this point. If there came a point where having xrays would make a difference, we'd discuss it.

Unfortunately, we don't have a choice about stairs. He has to go up and down a long flight to get in and out of the house.

Fourdogs, how is Darby doing?


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

You guys have been amazing :heart:
Darby deteriorated over the last couple days. I was able to give her meds (and I gave max doses) last night and this morning. I could tell she had enough of fighting. 

She left us a little while ago. No more pain, no more meds, no more. Such a good girl. She will forever be missed. 

Vet said today she noticed the liver had doubled in size since a couple weeks ago when she last saw her. Likely liver cancer. My poor baby. 

She joins her minpin buddy, Gobie, and her fur- mom Lexi. All good dogs. They were my original three dogs. Reunited again. 

Xxoo


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm so sorry! Big hugs to you!!

There isn't much that I can say. All of us have been there and we hold you and Darby in our hearts.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

I'm so sorry. We lost our last dog to hemangiosarcoma, it's a horrible fast growing cancer. Devastating. At least it isn't painful for the dog.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> You guys have been amazing :heart:
> Darby deteriorated over the last couple days. I was able to give her meds (and I gave max doses) last night and this morning. I could tell she had enough of fighting.
> 
> She left us a little while ago. No more pain, no more meds, no more. Such a good girl. She will forever be missed.
> ...


I'm so sorry! This is such sad news. I don't know what to say. I feel like I knew her. How are you doing?


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I''m so sorry for your loss.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin is not eating. I keep trying different foods and they work for a couple days but then he stops eating again. I wonder if it's nearing the end. I have a vet appointment tomorrow.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

So sorry to hear about Darby. It sounds like she had a wonderful mom (I'm guessing). Your love for Darby has been amazing.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the sweet thoughts! I'm doing ok. I was very torn up yesterday but have a lot of wonderful support from family and friends which helped make today more bearable. 

I don't think I realized how bad she was. Since today I realized how much I had to care for her. Of course that wasn't a problem but there were many meds and small meals. And she has been eating very slowly the last few days. 

The vet and I are supposing it was hemangio given how fast it had grown since mid January. I noticed then that it was hardened and jutting out just past her ribs. Two weeks later it took up half her belly and was smashing all her organs up and forward. By Saturday she looked very pregnant it was so huge and far into her abdomen. I didn't opt for a necropsy but it seems pretty obvious. 

I loved her very much. Always the most polite, sweet girl. My other three investigated the blanket I took with, every square inch. Took about five minutes of them sniffing and circling the blanket and then they were all off gleefully playing. Today I noticed Jack sniffing it again, intensely. 

She had removed herself from dog activities largely so maybe they didn't notice her just slip away. 

How is pippin doing now pomom? I hope he eats for you. That makes me worry for him! 

I will keep following the thread :heart: 
My chihuahua is 9.5 so technically a senior, plus she has three legs, the remaining front leg has rebroken and self mended at some point before we got her at age 5. She has an S shaped spine and three vertebrae in the area of her shoulders is fused. I started her on dgp last week and she seems very peppy. I am hoping she stays well despite her structural issues. Oh she also get her kibble ground(1T) plus the same amount of warm water mixed in from her swallowing/esophagus issue. I tried canned with her but she can still aspirate it into her sinus cavity. She must swallow weird because kibble or canned food that is chunky especially retrograde aspirate right up into her sinus causing her much trouble. And her bowl is elevated to help her swallow correctly. 

Thanks again for your love and support. What a great group of people!!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Oh fourdogs, it's so great to see you! I'm glad you have a lot of support. I know how the major managing of a sick dog just gets bigger and bigger and you don't notice how crazy it's gotten.

Thanks for asking about Pippin. He is not eating his food hardly at all. He had cheese on bread and Cheerios for dinner tonight. My vet said that she is going to email me some home cooking recipes. Yesterday I for some reason felt sure that today would be his last day but he's still here. He had physio on Saturday and that was just a lovely experience. The chiro is my vet's spouse and she just made me feel so supported and Pippin was so relaxed with her. She recommended a pelvic brace but hasn't emailed me the details yet. She came to our house and spent over two hours with us and didn't charge!

Fourdogs, your chihuahua sounds like another brave soul. What is her name? Is that her in your avatar?


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Aw Pippin I am glad you are able to get him to eat a little something. At this point whatever you can get down, go for it! 

Cookie is my chihuahua and yes that's her in my avatar. She's a very good girl, wears a diaper because she will pee wherever, whenever, but other than that, she's a nice little dog. She's 4 pounds on a "chubby" day, generally 3.5 when summer comes and she's hopping around with me out in the garden. I'm happy that Cookie will take her DGP supplement with no masking needed, so that's easy. She gets 1/4 of a tablet once a day so far, I do worry abut that remaining front leg. I'm betting it will start to cause her some issues. Good news is she's TINY, and transporting her is a breeze if necessary. I'm already accustomed to carrying her up/down stairs to potty and bed and all that. She's a long hair and often mistaken for a pom, by the way!

I'm hoping for a good, long while before I need to make any tough choices again! My minpin died a few years ago, then 3 years later Darby's Mom, Lexi, passed and 4 years now Darby passed. Too close! 

I was offered another bichon puppy by my breeder, but I declined. I think 3 is a good number for me right now, even though it seems sacrilege to NOT have a bichon around (I used to show them and bred 3 litters, I was the "bichon lady"). 

Truth be told, I really love mini poodles, and that likely will be "next dog" after several years. But 3 is good. 

Her ashes are in this morning. I'm trying to hurry the kids along in their lessons (homeschool) so we can get on the road and go get her! The vet is super nice, very good, and worth the drive but it's 45 minutes just one way. I'll be happy to have her home. 

I have to say, I think I mourned her a LOT before she even passed. Starting in November last year when she started to decline rapidly, I felt like I had already lost her, the girl she once was, and it hurt so much to see pieces of her personality chip away. So once she passed... Saturday I was devastated. Sunday I was tearful and sad and running through all the should haves and what ifs. Monday and today, I woke with a feeling of peace. I'm not sad anymore. I feel terribly guilty, I should be sad! Shouldn't I? Does it mean I didn't love her enough? This is where I am with my grief I guess. Not a fun time to grieve. 

Keep me posted on Pippin.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Just arrived home with her box. <3


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Don't feel guilty. With my last one, I didn't go through the stages of grief in order either. I think it's harder when you don't have time to prepare. I still have days where I cry about it, but mostly I'm able to accept that she didn't have to get old. 

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

mrsserena said:


> Don't feel guilty. With my last one, I didn't go through the stages of grief in order either. I think it's harder when you don't have time to prepare. I still have days where I cry about it, but mostly I'm able to accept that she didn't have to get old.
> 
> Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk


I'm trying to not feel guilty. Just need a little time. I know letting her go was the right thing to do, she was starting to suffer, and I could see for as fast as that liver was growing, it was going to get very bad, very fast. I'm happy to have spared her from that. <sigh> 

Thanks for the thoughts mrsserena.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Yes definitely don't feel guilty. You may even feel a little relief and that's ok too. I know when Hope died I felt she was finally safe and I could stop worrying about her.

I also understand not having a bichon is "sacrilege ". Ha. Poms are wrapped up in my ego and identity. Totally hear ya. But I love mini poos.

Your chi is tiny! Have you considered physio for her front leg so it can last her as long as possible?

Pippin ate scrambled eggs for breakfast :neutral_face: and he hasn't pooed much the last two days. Not at all so far today. My vet sent me a recipe so I'll shop and cook tomorrow. Also got some recovery formula from the vet when I picked up his Rx. And he'll be eating baby food today.

Glad Darby is home. What did they put the ashes in? Hope's ashes are in this gorgeous cedar box with her name engraved on it. I was pleasantly surprised with that when I picked them up.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Please don't feel guilty. You know it was the right time for her to go. You don't love them any less for letting them go. In my mind you loved them MORE. Like Pomon said, it's OK to feel some relief. Don't beat yourself up for what you feel. Grief comes in all forms. 

When we put Cameron down a little over a year ago we both were relieved that he was not suffering. We still tear up over him but we know we did what was right by him.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin liked the Recovery formula. I was feeling good for about two and a half seconds. Now I think he feels hot and is breathing too fast. I think I'm having a panic attack.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> Pippin liked the Recovery formula. I was feeling good for about two and a half seconds. Now I think he feels hot and is breathing too fast. I think I'm having a panic attack.


((((HUGS)))) Tell me about the Recovery formula? Food? How is he doing now? 

I haven't looked into any PT for her front leg. At her last vet visit, she had an X-ray (were trying to figure out her retrograde aspiration/swallowing issue), we could see that the leg had broken right below the elbow joint, and slid down and knitted sideways. It's just knit together in a very small spot, so we have to be very careful with manipulating it. Some days she looks at me pitifully and wants to be carried (I think she's jerking my chain a little bit! LOL) and other days she zooms like a rocket! 

Thanks, so much, you guys. I am going to let the guilt go today, and think about all the love and joy she shared. <3 

Oh, her ashes are in a very small wooden box, which is stained and varnished. It's simple but beautiful. It measures maybe 5" tall, 6" long, 4" wide. 

But now I'm worrying about Pippin... need an update!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

What was the conclusion about the swallowing? She only has one front leg, yes? Did you know about the break before that X-ray?

Pippin's temperature was back to normal this morning and he ate breakfast and lunch with zeal! He seems to be moving better too! He had physio this afternoon and she said his extension was better in his front legs. She also did some work on his lumbar area which is in total spasm. He did well with this too. So I'm to ice pack and heat pack every day and do some light massage. I feel like he might have more time than I thought on Sunday night. I did find a strange blackhead like thing on his leg though. I've seen ticks and I don't think that's what it is but heck. No day is totally without worry.

How is Toby's acupuncture going?

Fourdogs--Recovery is Royal Canin designed for dogs who need extra support and extra temptation. My vet said it is really meant as a short term food but to give him anything he likes at this point.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm glad Pippin is eating and doing better!

Toby didn't have any response to the first acupuncture treatment. The next one is tomorrow afternoon. I'm worried that things are progressing quickly. He fell going up the stairs the other night and I had to help lift his back end for each step. I've started putting a gait belt kind of thing around him to take some weight off of his back legs going up and down the stairs. He doesn't like it, but I don't want him to fall again. He's still fine on the flat road, which is good.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I didn't know about the break until then. It's made sort of a false joint which has limited movement. We may be looking at surgery at some point if that rebreaks again. Yikes! 

Glad Pippin has perked up. It's so scary when they have bad days and you worry!!

Hope that Toby perks up some!! Maybe the next acupuncture session will kick in. 

Just a quick note for now. Glad to hear updates!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sandakat--he still may stabilize at this point and things won't progress further for a while. Too bad you have all those stairs!

Fourdogs--is the surgery possible for you financially?

It was bath day at our house



















And afterwards we were very happy










And beautiful










And Pippin walked around!


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I'd like to jump in. Amaze-Bobb celebrated his 11th birthday a month ago. While he's getting stronger and healthier every day, I know it won't be that way forever. He had such a horrific life for a decade before his rescue. He's down two legs and all but 4 teeth.

I didn't have a dog growing up. I've never experienced the death of a family pet. "My" dog growing up was the dog of family friends we saw every week and they sadly waited so long to let her go that all I felt was relief that she wasn't suffering anymore and I don't think I even cried. But I've cried so hard for a dog at a shelter who was pts due to kennel stress that I couldn't breathe, I dog I knew and loved and looked forward to seeing, a dog I spent a total of probably 5-6 hours with at most but poured my heart into.

Toy poodles are generally long lived, I'd expect 13-16ish, but with Bobb's history and having half as many legs as he should I have no idea what to expect. I'm pretty sure "10" was a best guess when he was rescued but he's definitely an old dog. He has age spots hiding under his fur. Along with many, many scars. I've never talked about his scars. You can see them during bathing and drying. All over. Some several inches long. It breaks my heart too much to think about them. He also gets very sore and painful when storms come in or the pressure spikes. I watch the weather and give him Tramadol when I see a rise in pressure coming. Otherwise I can't even touch him. The last time the pressure spiked it did so within about an hour and he was sleeping on my lap. He woke up and just started screaming and screaming and I couldn't even touch him.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Aw, Bobb! I love him <3 I follow his page on Facebook, too. 
SO sad to hear about his scars! I do wonder, and I saw it when I was grooming full time, you get the once a year shave downs, the mats would pull so tight that it actually tears the skin. The poor dogs. Hopefully he wasn't abused, that's just unthinkable for such a happy guy!!
Poodles, I read, live 12-15, which I'd say is average for most all small dogs. Take it one day at a time with him, I know each day is a gift to him with you as his mom! 

Pomom, Pippin looks so fluffy after his bath! Glad he's up and around!

As for surgery for cookie's leg, yes, we could probably handle it. Thankfully at this point, it's stable and not giving her any issues. 
I ordered her a joint supplement from chewy.com this morning. Almost out of DGP which is leftover from Darby's meds. 

I had another breakdown last night. There was a thunderstorm (in February!?) and it was wild, windy and crashing with lightning and thunder. As swift as it came, it soon left and a HUGE, full, bright double rainbow appeared, the "end" of the rainbow was right on our barn. Now, I know it's a weather driven thing, but still I immediately felt "it's from Darby." And burst into tears and pretty much stayed that way the rest of the night. 
This morning I turned on the radio and the song "and the world turns" came on and burst into tears again. Oh how I miss her. The pain is heavy. 

I have to teach a children's co-op history fair this morning and I hope I can hold it together.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> What was the conclusion about the swallowing?


Oh, forgot to answer you. She has megaesophagus.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Sibe, I am continuously amazed with what you've done for/with Bobb and how far he's come.

What can you do for megaesophagus?


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Still catching up on the thread but wanted to make mention that our busted, sick, sore seniors sure do have some wonderful owners.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Sibe said:


> Still catching up on the thread but wanted to make mention that our busted, sick, sore seniors sure do have some wonderful owners.


It's how I want someone to treat ME when I'm a busted, sick, sore senior... not that many years from now. lol Seriously, how can you NOT? They give us so much love. It would be unthinkable not to do it for them.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

It's unthinkable for us, but I've seen so many abandoned. We'd fostered seniors and medical needs dogs before, but in adopting Bobb that level of care becomes permanent. No going back. Jumping in with both feet, and those feet are permanently in. It's all or nothing.

Being involved with fostering and rescues, and particularly with two rescues that specifically pulled sick seniors, I was constantly seeing the seniors in need. I don't know how people can live with themselves, surrendering or dumping a senior dog. How dare you do that to the dog you've [presumably] loved and taken care of for its entire life. The first dog I ever pulled to foster was a sore, stiff, senior Cairn Terrier. He made such huge progress in the couple weeks we had him that it made a permanent impact and I've loved fostering seniors ever since. I have a heart for the seniors (and shy shut down dogs).

Higgins, ~10 yr old Cairn. Sent to a rescue sanctuary after we fostered for a couple weeks where he lived happy for a several months before being pts for kidney failure. He lived heaven on earth in those months. Big squishy beds, bones to chew, a couple acres to explore, senior dog paradise.


















Chuni, 11 yr old Jindo who lived outside her entire life on a chain. My friend and fellow volunteer convinced the owner to surrender her. The rescue that was supposed to take her couldn't get a foster so the dog was staying at the shelter and so stressed she didn't eat for like 10 days. I offered to foster for any rescue, and another rescue said they'd step up. I paid out of pocket for food for her for about 2 weeks until the rescue had her transferred out of state to another rescue. Was then transferred to another state where she finally got the care she needed, medication for thyroid, and was adopted. She was my husband's favorite foster dog.


















Merida, senior eskie who was surrendered because of a big nasty cancerous mass on her leg. Fully recovered and was adopted.









And then I got one of my best friends into fostering, and she fostered a ~15 yr old husky. Supposed to be hospice. Matilda had been living in a storage unit with a homeless woman and the woman stopped coming so the owner of the storage facility called animal control. Dog hadn't stood up at the shelter in 2 weeks. Give her a last few good days while waiting on blood results, then let her go in loving arms.









Ha! Matilda got a much needed bath, medical care, and love. Not only would she stand, but would walk and even do short runs. She mostly loved to lay outside in the sun. She was adopted by a family with a mildly autistic son and it's the perfect fit.









All they need is proper care, for whatever time remains. Good food, good bed, good meds, and I can't recommend physical therapy enough. No dog should be sore and stiff.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Cookie eats from an elevated bowl. Her kibble is ground and then water added. I tried to do just all canned but if she swallows the chunks down it retrograde aspirates up into her sinus. 
Actually the vet said she did have mega e at time of the X-ray but felt it was more of a stretching from her bolting down dry food and it getting stuck on the way down so only temporary mega e. She felt it would return to normal size. 

Given that she doesn't have to resort to eating in a special Upright chair and her swallowing her gruel ok, I believe it did return to normal. 

So actually she's got more of a swallowing too much at once greediness disorder lol.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Sibe, all I can say is thank you.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I was going to mention that upright chair for meso.

This was one of my fosters. I took her in from a kill shelter not knowing how old she was. She turned out to be a senior. I had her for a month or so and then she went to a northern state and got adopted. I wold have kept her but my collie and her were the wrong mix of personalities. Her new owners kept in touch with me and she had a wonderful life for over a year until it they had to say good bye to her. Stupid Photobucket isn't working. I'll have to post Katie's picture later.

I think when we have special needs and senior dogs, they take so much of our time and routine that we don't know what to do with ourselves once they are gone. When my bearded collie was put to sleep, I was looking to adopt another special needs dog. I looked at a collie with heartworm, but it also had cancer. The next collie I looked at had been shot in the leg so had a permanent limp. Kona, who is healthy, is the one who bonded with us and the rescue lady keeps saying how amazed she turned out as well as she did. She had been in rescue for two years. I guess in some way she is special needs.

I had stopped nebulizing Gus because his cough had seemed to have gotten better but it's starting again and I can feel him breathing a bit heavier so had to start again tonight. He hates having it done. I guess as long as he fights me, it's a good sign.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)




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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

The thought of dumping a senior animal just turns my stomach. I had no idea that people would do that. I've seen seniors turned in because their owners died and no one could care for them. There are a few at my local shelter right now. I thought that was sad enough, but just dumping a dog because it's old is horrific.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Welcome to the thread, Sibe! You do amazing things. Seniors break my heart. I don't think I would have strength to love a new dog I knew only had a year or two. I had a good cry today, but it was mostly out of self doubt. I don't know if I'm keeping Pippin going against his will sometimes, but I don't think so. He loves to eat again, and he loves "playing games" (training with the limited things he can still manage.) 

Fourdogs--glad Cookie has a chance for her esophagus to mend. Your food prep seems to be working? Any recent aspirating? Your tearfulness Makes me want to hug you! The rainbow. So touching. Darby wants you to know that she is ok and that you did an amazing job.

Beardiedawg--good vibes for Gus. Does that nebulizing seem to be helping him? Katie was beautiful!

Sandakat--how did the second acupuncture go? How was Toby on the stairs today?

Pippin is eating with gusto but now he hasn't pooed in a day and a half. I gave him some Laxatone tonight so fingers crossed. I'm as close to 100% sure as possible that he didn't eat anything that would cause a blockage. I think I just gave him too much rice plus all the diet changes trying to find something he'd eat.

I feel like I'm a constant state of anxiety though. I have a kind of hypochondria about my dogs at the best of times, so with Pippin being so irregular about eating and pooping and everything lately I have about hit the max. I wake up in the morning and I'm afraid of what I will find when I open my eyes and look at him. Will he be able to stand today? How will his bm be? What if he doesn't pee and his kidneys have shut down? Will he eat? These are my first thoughts in the morning and I feel like I'm drowning.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Sandakat said:


> The thought of dumping a senior animal just turns my stomach. I had no idea that people would do that. I've seen seniors turned in because their owners died and no one could care for them. There are a few at my local shelter right now. I thought that was sad enough, but just dumping a dog because it's old is horrific.


Those are the saddest cases at the shelter where I volunteer, I think. I can't say if they wander away and can't find their way back, or if they get dumped, but in the summer there is always decrepitly old strays being picked up in the rural areas outside of the city (they don't take in strays from inside city limits because that is city animal control's jurisdiction and they share a parking lot). It is heart breaking to see old farm dogs that can barely stand, are nearly blind and deaf in the kennels.... I just don't understand how people can do that to loyal companions or to faithful farm dogs who have served years patrolling a property.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Sandakat said:


> The thought of dumping a senior animal just turns my stomach. I had no idea that people would do that. I've seen seniors turned in because their owners died and no one could care for them. There are a few at my local shelter right now. I thought that was sad enough, but just dumping a dog because it's old is horrific.


We adopted an 11yr old sheltie from a shelter. Family moved here from Texas, couldn't find a place to rent with a dog <insert eyeroll>

Bad enough she was old but she was obese, had bilateral hip dysplasia, a UTI, bladder stones, ear infections and other issues.
People suck.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The kids of a family I know told me their parents took their elderly dog to the pound, so "someone who can deal with his health problems can adopt him". I really hope, in this case, that they're lying to the kids and they really had the dog PTS. Because dumping an old dog is a horrible thing to do and they seem like nice people. Or are people just stupid? They really think someone will adopt an old dog who needs a lot of care, even though they never would? 

Toby isn't doing well . He's entirely deaf, almost entirely blind, is weak in the hind end, and senile. He's gone downhill quickly in the last month or so. What sucks is that he's healthy physically. I've never had to have a pet put down who wasn't actively dying. Argh I don't want to make this decision.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Toby isn't doing well . He's entirely deaf, almost entirely blind, is weak in the hind end, and senile. He's gone downhill quickly in the last month or so. What sucks is that he's healthy physically. I've never had to have a pet put down who wasn't actively dying. Argh I don't want to make this decision.


That is so hard! At this point you have to honestly ask yourself about his quality of life. You can keep them alive for a long time, but are they suffering?

I think the acupuncture helped my Toby. He seemed to get up the stairs more easily last night. I'll update after our walk this morning.

Pomom, I'm glad Pippin is eating and playing.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin still didn't poo this morning so I took him to the vet. She said she didn't feel a lot of poo in his guts so he is probably just absorbing the new food better. She also looked at his toe and said it was just raw and to put some surolan on it. His heart and lungs sounded good and he didn't have a temperature. I feel so relieved. There were so many things I was worried about and I didn't go to the vet because I kinda felt either she would say it was the end or I would spend money needlessly. Two extremes. Turns out I didn't need to worry but the money was well spent for peace of mind.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Willowy--I guess it depends if you can sense what he wants. Does his still find joy in things? Ugh it is hard. Does his senility make him upset? Do the other problems cause him pain? I know I don't want to pts Pippin until he is in rough shape but sometimes I don't know if that point has come already.

Sandakat--that's great that the acupuncture is helping! Woohoo! I hope your walk confirms it!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't know. That's the problem! He's confused a lot. But he's always been sort of doofy and go-with-the-flow so it doesn't seem to distress him. Doesn't seem to be in pain. Still eats, although he eats very slowly now. Still wants the cat food. He's starting to snark at the other dogs if they get too close, not sure what that's about. I have to make him lie down because otherwise he'll lumber around the house bumping into things. I wish it were more clear as to what he wants.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

If it's not obvious I would, personally, care for him the best I could until it is. That's just me though. I just don't want to regret it.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Willowy, I know how you feel about the senility. Gemma had that and luckily a mixture of Anipryl and Cholodin worked. I found that the Canine Cognitive Dysfunction was so much harder to deal with than all of her health issues. I could understand the arthritis and needing help to stand and could gauge her pain and health on that. She had bloody noses and possible nasal cancer. That I could also deal with. But her not knowing what was going on and me not being able to read whether or not she was suffering was the worst. Luckily once the meds started working, I had another year with her until she started having seizures and I knew it was time. This March will be four years with her being gone and it still feels like yesterday.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

(((((BIG HUGS POMOM))))))

I certainly empathize, I was always so worried about Darby in her last few weeks! I'm glad his vet check went ok. 

Didn't realize there are two Toby's on the thread.  I hope they are doing well at the moment. 

It's SO difficult to know when the right time is. It seemed like last wednesday night, when DH and I were talking about how fast Darby seemed to be going downhill, that once I told Darby (and I told her by talking to her) that she rapidly worsened. Maybe she was trying to hang on and be strong for us, but by her appointment on saturday, all she would do was lie flat on her belly and follow us with her eyes, head down. She was so tired. Poor baby. 
I dunno... people say "you will just know..." and maybe you will, but i was never sure. I had to always hash it over with people who knew her best before I could give in and say it was time. 

On that note, feeling better today. No tears or sorrow today. Such a relief. grieving for me is physically painful, I hate to have to do it! 
Kisses to all the pups! 
Cookie is doing well today. Just got her joint supplement from chewy today. She occasionally aspirates when she gets ahold of a piece of stray kibble or something similar. She's such a piggy, she wants it in her belly NAO!! So she bolts things down and ends up pushing it up into her sinus. Then she will reverse sneeze until she manages to get it back out again. 

Goofy girl


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Glad you're feeling better, Fourdogs! Grief is not a straight line so you still may have days, but it's positive.
Yay for Cookie! What is the joint supplement? Sorry I think you mentioned it.

Beardiedawg, Lexi looks so sweet. I'm glad the meds gave you more time with her. Did they halt the dementia or actually reverse it?

Pippin still hasn't pooed. I don't think I was feeding him enough though. The new food is lower calorie and less bulk, a lot of moisture. I know that when I go on a diet it messes with my system, but I don't want him to lose weight so I increased his portion tonight. I think I'll start cooking for him though. The vet says this food may be hard on his compromised liver and kidneys.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin pooed! Pretty funny how happy this makes me. Only dog people would understand!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> Pippin pooed! Pretty funny how happy this makes me. Only dog people would understand!


I totally get this!! Ya for poo!!

I homecooked for Darby her last 2 weeks. I mixed 1 pound fish (first week) and then beef (2nd week) wit 6 cups rice and a cup of mixed vegetables, 1 T canola oil, and a little salt. I didn't think balance mattered too much at that point, I just wanted some good food in her belly. 

Maybe try 4 little meals a day for him? Seems like once they hit a certain point, they have a hard time keeping weight on. (((Pippin)))


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Toby isn't doing well . He's entirely deaf, almost entirely blind, is weak in the hind end, and senile. He's gone downhill quickly in the last month or so. What sucks is that he's healthy physically. I've never had to have a pet put down who wasn't actively dying. Argh I don't want to make this decision.


Aw Toby  Such a hard choice. wish I could give you a hug!



beardiedawg said:


> This March will be four years with her being gone and it still feels like yesterday.


Such a beautiful girl!


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Pomom said:


> Pippin pooed! Pretty funny how happy this makes me. Only dog people would understand!


Yes, LOL, this is a great topic of conversation around our house, too.

Toby, the collie, is doing somewhat better after the second acupuncture. He's certainly more confident going both up and down the stairs, although he did have to bunny hop the steeper steps to the garage. On our morning walk he went a few houses further than he had done for the past few weeks and we did a 40 minute walk in the afternoon without problems. I'm very happy with that. It certainly isn't making him into a 5 year old dog again, but I think he's more comfortable. Our next appointment is on Thursday.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Willowy - I'm there with you .... Don't do it, yet! 

Shep is 15yo, has a 5 -10lb softball sized cancerous growth, has reduced sight and hearing, eats slowly (teeth and gums are OK), is NOT incontinent but had a few accidents, and he has trouble getting up in the house. Sometimes, I feel that I have to hand feed him to encourage him to eat ... but I also feel it's b/c he's more sensitive to food which is not fresh ... after two weeks he's not as interested, but he never turns down treats.

In spite of arthritis and nerve issues, he walks (strolls) 30 min twice a day and enjoys sniffing all along the way. I have him on Gabapentin and Glucosamine, which seems adequate for current quality of life. I tried Laser and may try acupuncture. 

I found a few 15yo toys ... and he still shows a little interest in them, but otherwise he sleeps most of the time.
Having written all of this, I know that I may wake up tomorrow and Shep may say, "It's time."

How does Toby do when you walk him, and when you offer different smells to stimulate him?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Happy 15th Made Up Approximate Birthday, Pippin!

Hanksimon--Shep is still truckin in spite of it all. Golden years are more like Rusty Years, creaky and falling apart, but a little oil keeps things moving. Isn't that the worst not knowing how he will be tomorrow? I wake up so nervous to see how Pippin will wake up.

Sandakat -- that's great! I'm so glad you found a drug free way to help him!

I came home to a real mess today. Apparently that poo after 3.5 days of no poo was the finger in the dam. There was dried up formerly liquid poo on the floor, on the dog bed and all over Pippin. Sorry to talk about poo so much but I think you all understand that it is a barometer. I didn't give him his 4pm meal. At 9:30 he pooed tiny niblets but they were semi-solid so I gave him his 10pm meal.

Pippin also had physio tonight. Doc comes to our house and massages him and works on range of motion. I think it is helping, but he is very stiff and we have only just started. This was the third treatment. He still can't walk really, but he can stand for bathroom and eating.

Sybbie and I are going to our first Meetup tomorrow. Looking forward to it!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Happy Birthday, Pippin! Sorry to hear about his poo-splosion! 

HOw's Shep and Toby today?

Cookie is just fine. She has a terrible habit of barking once the sun comes up, and she barks until there is food in the belly. I give her a bedtime snack, to help with the early rising, but Ihave to admit, once in a while it'd be nice to sleep past 6:30 am!

Still miss Darby every day. Hoping I made the right decision. I guess I can't change it now, huh.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

For the most part, Shep has many more good days than not. Started as a good day today, but he was in a little pain by the afternoon walk ... which is needed to work out some of the (arthritic?) kinks. I also think warmer weather makes him uncomfortable, so I don't usually worry if he pants a little more (we're in the 70s and he chose to lie in the sun for an hour while I worked outside.)

Then, I discovered the problem. When I was about to give him the afternoon meds, I found a dried, crunched Gabapentin capsule. Rather than swallowing, Shep had bitten into one of his capsules, gotten a mouthful of bitter (?) and spat out one of his two-dose capsules. He's very good taking his meds, but once or twice a month, he decides to chew, resulting in a little more discomfort than needed... He's fine now. 

Sorry about the poo goo ... This too will pass ;-)

Good to hear about Cookie ... Shep tends to like to start the day at dawn or earlier, also. 

As far as Darby, you saw the signs... Darby 'made the decision' and you carried out the wishes. And, that is much better than waiting too long......


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm not sure if the meds reversed the dementia completely or not. I had originally started Gemma on the Cholodin by itself because it got really good reviews. She then got a major bloody nose while at the groomers, which is part of the vet, and they gave her some ketamine to slow her blood pressure and stop the bleeding. She wasn't one of the MDR1 affected breeds but it took her over two days to come out of the little bit of anesthesia. I had even given her permission to leave me if she thought it was her time. When she did come out, her dementia was worse so I started her on the Anipryl. After some time, she was back to more normal but with an old dog with health issues, its' hard to tell what normal really is.

I'm glad the acupuncture is working for Toby. I haven't tried any of those things with Gus. I guess if I get to the point where I need to do a prescription pain/anti-inflamatory, I will try that also. Right now unless he gets bowled over by a bigger dog at the park, he seems to have adjusted to his spine and arthritis and I don't believe it is causing him pain.

Fourdogs, it's normal to second guess yourself either way. Either you feel it is too soon or too late. You loved him. He isn't in pain anymore. Those are the only things that are important.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

My Toby is gone . I got home from work and he couldn't stand up, even with me holding him up, and he was completely out of it mentally, almost non-responsive. I took him to the e-vet in Sioux Falls. In a snow/sleet storm, so that was all kinds of fun :/. The vet said we could probably get him on his feet again, with steroids and stuff, but he was so far gone mentally that I couldn't put him through any more. It was very peaceful. I like how that vet clinic does euthanasias. I just realized they undercharged me. . .I hope they were being nice and it wasn't a mistake.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Willowy said:


> My Toby is gone . I got home from work and he couldn't stand up, even with me holding him up, and he was completely out of it mentally, almost non-responsive. I took him to the e-vet in Sioux Falls. In a snow/sleet storm, so that was all kinds of fun :/. The vet said we could probably get him on his feet again, with steroids and stuff, but he was so far gone mentally that I couldn't put him through any more. It was very peaceful. I like how that vet clinic does euthanasias. I just realized they undercharged me. . .I hope they were being nice and it wasn't a mistake.


 I'm so sorry


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

So sorry! You did the right thing. He was telling you and you listened. Heartbreaking just the same.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm so sorry, Willowy.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Oh Willowy, I'm so sorry!!! Sending you lots of hugs and love!!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Very sorry to hear about Toby. I'm sure the e-Vet was being compassionate...


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Willowy said:


> My Toby is gone . I got home from work and he couldn't stand up, even with me holding him up, and he was completely out of it mentally, almost non-responsive. I took him to the e-vet in Sioux Falls. In a snow/sleet storm, so that was all kinds of fun :/. The vet said we could probably get him on his feet again, with steroids and stuff, but he was so far gone mentally that I couldn't put him through any more. It was very peaceful. I like how that vet clinic does euthanasias. I just realized they undercharged me. . .I hope they were being nice and it wasn't a mistake.


I'm so sorry!

I expect this on threads like this one, but it's still so sad. Hugs to you!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I don't mean to change the subject on Willowy's sad news....Toby is not forgotten

But I just wanted to report that I cooked for Pippin last night which was a big adventure for me cuz when I make something for myself, I pretty much just take something out of the freezer. Anyhow it was boiled chicken breast, rice, carrots, spinach, broccoli and zucchini. When I serve it I add some pumpkin. He gobbled it up and this morning everything worked fine poowise.

Sorry about the diversion, Willowy.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Thanks. . .I'm starting to think he had a brain tumor. The blindness, disorientation, and trouble walking just all came on kind of suddenly, and got worse quickly. I guess there's no way to know now but I don't think normal age-related issues pop up so quickly.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

That sounds like a good guess. All of the more reason hey you did the right thing.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

On the up side, Toby the collie is definitely doing better after his second acupuncture. He's certainly not 5 years old again, but he's much more confident going up and down stairs and he's not dragging his right back leg as much as before. I'm very happy!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

So sorry about Toby. It sounds like you made the best decision for him. Loving animals can be so painful but it is so rewarding.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Willowy--how are you feeling today? Do you have other dogs giving you love?

Sandakat -- that's great news! It's nice to have a little good news when there is so much sad news lately ((((((Fourdogs))))))))((((((((((Willowy))))))))

Pippin is doing great on his new homemade food! His mobility still is not good though he walks if I kind of support him. And my hours at work got cut way back. $600 less a month for me and I was just scraping by as it is. I had to borrow from my parents to pay rent this month. I'm super scared how I am going to pay for Pippin's medication. It is $400/mo.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, I have 3 other dogs. 2 of whom are also seniors :/. Penny is doing fine, shows no sign of her age other than having a gray muzzle. Moose is a bit weak in the back end, and will only eat canned food, but otherwise he seems fine. He is maybe the same as or only slightly better than Toby was physically, but mentally is all there. He does better in the winter; he won't eat when it's hot out, so I'm worried about this summer. He can't lose any more weight. But I won't have to worry about that for a few months so I won't .

The other dogs show no indication that they miss Toby. Dogs are funny.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Mine don't seem to miss Darby either. I kinda surmise that if you have multiples, they don't bond as strongly when it's just a pair, I dunno. 
When my first dog, a minpin, died, the remaining 2 bichons (Lexi and Darby) were very nervous for several weeks. But he was very much "in charge" and on guard, so I think that made a difference. 

In Darby's passing, she had already removed herself from most dog activities, choosing to lie on a cool tile floor instead. This always made me so sad, and I was forever trying to make her more comfortable, getting nice soft beds for her, yet she'd push them aside and lie on the floor.

ANyway, I certainly notice. The house is quieter without Darby!  She always made happy panty sounds, always "a=roorooroo!" whenever going out to pee/comign in from peeing or at meal time. 
The others are quieter compared to her. 

The remaining 3 are doing well. Even tripawd Cookie.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

When we lost Cameron last year Toby was a bit subdued for about a week. I think that was mostly because we were acting differently, not because he was upset.

3 years ago, when we lost one of our cats at 12 years old, the other one, who we'd adopted at the same didn't seem affected at all. But she'd pulled away from him when he started to get sick.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Hope and Pippin were together for 14 years and Pippin didn't seem to care when she died. I think that's because he was always "my dog" and not too interested in dog bonding. Sybbie seems very attached to Pippin though, even though he is indifferent to her. I worry about that. She cries if I take Pippin out for a pee. I think she can handle if one of us leaves her but not both.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> Mine don't seem to miss Darby either. I kinda surmise that if you have multiples, they don't bond as strongly when it's just a pair, I dunno.
> When my first dog, a minpin, died, the remaining 2 bichons (Lexi and Darby) were very nervous for several weeks. But he was very much "in charge" and on guard, so I think that made a difference.
> 
> In Darby's passing, she had already removed herself from most dog activities, choosing to lie on a cool tile floor instead. This always made me so sad, and I was forever trying to make her more comfortable, getting nice soft beds for her, yet she'd push them aside and lie on the floor.
> ...


That's weird, Pippin seems to prefer the tile floor too. He has a nice big dog bed that occasionally put him on but he'll usually get off of it after a while even though that is a great effort.

They leave a gap, don't they? Hugs, Fourdogs.

Glad everybody else is well. You need that.

Sybbie has her first vet appointment Since joining our family on Sunday.mshe is due for rabies vax. I hope she's all good. Her insurance is better than Pippin's though so we can manage but I don't need any more worries!

Sandakat -- how old was Cameron? What breed was he?

Willowy--how old are Penny and Moose? Hope you have lots more time with them. How old is the third dog and what is his/her name?


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Barring anything traumatic and emergency type, I plan to have my pets euthanized at home when the time comes and will give all the rest, cats included in this, a chance to sniff and say goodbye. I've heard horrible stories of dogs who had a very hard time adjusting if their friend was suddenly gone. Some dogs don't seem to care, but most seem to gain some sort of understanding by giving them a chance to sniff and "say goodbye" after.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Pomom said:


> Sandakat -- how old was Cameron? What breed was he?


Cameron was a smooth collie. He was only 9 1/2 years old when we lost him after an almost year long battle with recurrent aspiration pneumonias.

Here's a picture of him:


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Penny and Moose are 13. Or I should say, Moose will be 13 in June. I have his pedigree so I know his birthday for sure. Penny's birthday is probably in January. My mom found her in April 2003 and she was just losing her baby teeth. I don't know for sure how old Toby was. I got him in 2004, he was full-grown then. The shelter said he was 1 1/2, but don't they say that about every dog that isn't obviously old? His teeth were bad so I suspect he might have been older. I arbitrarily assigned him the same birthday as Penny, but who knows. 

Suri is. . .5? I think. Her name really is Souris (French for mouse), but I don't like names with second syllable emphasis so I might as well spell it differently too . She was adopted from the shelter (by my friend not me) in late 2011, and they said she was 1 1/2 (of course!), but I actually think she was younger, maybe 9-12 months. She filled out a bit after adoption, and I think most dogs are already filled out by 18 months. So I have arbitrarily assigned her a birthday of January 2011, lol. She came to live with me last year because she's too reactive to live in a trailer court, and I live in the country 6 miles from town. Not a lot of people or dogs to react to out here! Although she did get to bark at the propane man today, so at least she gets some excitement occasionally . 

My mom is already mentioning dogs for adoption on her Facebook groups. I don't really want to have 4 dogs! I wanted to wait until I'm down to 2 to get another dog. But, well, if the right one comes along, maybe.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sandacat, Gus has has had severe pneumonia twice in the past year to the point that I thought I would lose him. The first time his temp was 106. I have no idea what causes his. Any idea what caused Cameron to aspirate? I do the nebulizer on Gus daily to hopefully keep him from getting the pneumonia again.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sandakat -- Cameron was beautiful. Sucks that you lost him so young. Are collies (rough and smooth) your breed or have you had others?

Willowy-- wow you had 3 thirteen- year -Olds. I hope Moose and Penny let you relax for a few more years. You have a moose and a mouse! I need pics! At least your mom is supportive of your having multiple dogs. 

Beardiedawg--how is Gus doing?

Fourdogs--hi how's Cookie and the gang?

Sibe--love to Amaze-Bobb and the kids!

Pippin is ding great on his homemade diet. I have been making too small batches though and have ended up having to cook every three days. Tomorrow I'm going to make a thriller batch but it is low calorie so that will only be 6 days:/ His mobility is still very limited. Going to go heat pack, ice and do exercises!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Sibe said:


> Barring anything traumatic and emergency type, I plan to have my pets euthanized at home when the time c


This was my wanting with Darby, however the 3 mobile vets that serve my area were all booked. I had to take her to my vet  Not ideal. I did take a blanket with us that she was euthanized on. Took it home, and Echo and Jack sniffed every square inch for several minutes. Every square inch. Cookie was too interested in us being in the kitchen, Might drop a crumb! So she never paid any attention to it. She was the one I was worried about because she always buddied up with Darby. But the only change I've seen in her is now she soaks up double the attention  


Coming by to check on everyone's woofers this morning! How's Pippin? Gus? Willowy, how are you doing?
I"ve seen AmazeBobb on FB with the zoomies!  He warms my heart!!

Cookie is doing well. She makes me worry, although I think all the worry and anxiety that I had for Darby has now transferred over to her! 
So she's a 3 legged, she's missing her front right leg. The front left has been broken and repaired (while with her previous owner). Cookie had 3 emergency vet visits last year. They took x-rays of her throat/spine area each time (twice was for choking/swallowing/aspirating issue, once for her falling because she decided to leap out of my DDs arms)
Somewhere between the first visit and the third visit, she had re-broken her front leg!! She NEVER limped or cried or favored that front leg! I have no idea when she broke it, but now it has self mended and created a false joint. It mended itself side by side vs end to end, and there's a small spot where the bone has healed. 
This dog must have a high pain tolerance or it happened gradually. 

At this point, she zooms around fast as can be, but then other times asks to be picked up. 

I put her on Pet Naturals of Vermont small dog joint supplement and she's on DGP too. 
DH thinks I"m worrying for nothing and she's fine. I think she's fine too! My brain just wants me to worry about something! I guess if she worsens in some way, we take her in, and we fix it! 

I have to say "never again!" for tiny dogs, as they bring a whole set of worry along with them. 
<sigh>


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

beardiedawg said:


> Sandacat, Gus has has had severe pneumonia twice in the past year to the point that I thought I would lose him. The first time his temp was 106. I have no idea what causes his. Any idea what caused Cameron to aspirate? I do the nebulizer on Gus daily to hopefully keep him from getting the pneumonia again.


It was a long process, but here's what we think happened. Cameron, for some reason we never determined, got partial laryngeal paralysis, which is where the vocal cord doesn't open entirely. Usually the dog gets an obstructed trachea from this, but Cameron's was deformed in some way so it never closed. So he was unable to protect his airway and would aspirate when he ate or drank. We know this much because he had a bronchoscopy, rhinoscopy, head and chest CT scans. We tried raising his bowl and getting a slow feed bowl and wetting his food to slow his eating. This worked for a while. But then he developed ataxia and seizures. We declined a repeat CT scan and MRI's so we don't know exactly why this happened. My feeling is that after months on double doses of antibiotics he probably developed a fungal infection in his brain, which probably seeded from his upper airway. When he aspirated and got pneumonia the third time we decided that we couldn't torture him anymore and let him go.

Pomom - I love that Pippin is eating. I'm glad you found something he likes.

Willowy - 2 13year olds is hard to imagine. I hope all goes well.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sandacat, I can understand where you are coming from. When Gus had his dental (in between pneumonia 1 and 2) they did a tracheal wash also. We found he had antibiotic resistant bacteria and also a fungal infection. He went on three months of an antifungal, which I'm not sure if it helped or not. I'm not sure how he got the fungus in his lungs. One of his favorite things to do is lay in the dirt at the dog park and scratch it on top of him. I know fungus can live in the soil. Since then, I try to keep him from doing it.

When he gets the pneumonia, he goes on two antibiotics for three weeks. The first time we did the emergency clinic overnight with oxygen and the bill was stupidly expensive. This time, I was mostly treating him at home and bringing him to the regular vet each day for IV fluids and super nebulization. His regular vet was away and I asked the vet if I needed to worry about it being time. I fully understand about how much do you put them through. When I asked that, I had decided he had one more night and then I would make a decision. That one night he turned the corner. I'm guessing with his unknown age, there will be a time when I need to say that he has had enough. Luckily right now the little punk just likes to scare the heck out of me and then tell me that he was just kidding.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

beardiedawg said:


> . Luckily right now the little punk just likes to scare the heck out of me and then tell me that he was just kidding.


I know, right! Pippin scared me last night by not finishing his homemade food and I thought if he goes off this too, what does it mean?!? But he ate hardy today. I think he was telling me he didn't want the pumpkin anymore. Which is a shame. I didn't mix it in today but tried offering it to him separately and he wouldn't touch it. Sybbie freaked me out too by giving me half her coat when I brushed her. I thought "thyroid!" "Alopecia X!" I don't know. Hopefully it's just early spring shedding. I don't want a bald dog, or I should say, another bald dog. Pippin's fur is so thin.

Fourdogs I hear you on just worrying about things cuz it seems like the thing to do!

Pippin's chiro sent me a link to some support harnesses. I don't think so though. For it to be useful he'd have to wear it all the time so he was geared up when he gets up and I think that would be uncomfortable. He's so little I just kind of put a hand on his chest and between his back legs and shuffle along with him. They are also pretty expensive. I'd rather get him a stroller. Sandakat, did you say you had one? Anyone else find them useful? Remember that Pippin is only 12 lbs.

Willowy I read in another thread about Suri eating a bottle of fish oil. How is she doing?


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Out of all the issues thyroid is the easiest and cheapest to deal with. Gus takes those pills like they are treats.

I had Gemma in a Ruffwear harness and kept it on her all the time and it appeared comfortable. She was about 50 pounds so quite a bit bigger so I'm not sure I would bother using one with a little dog.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks Beardiedawg.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Hopefully this link will work. Here's Gus at the dog park today.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B85CV7WVGAFcZEJOVVVGRlR6aG8/view?usp=sharing


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

beardiedawg said:


> Hopefully this link will work. Here's Gus at the dog park today.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B85CV7WVGAFcZEJOVVVGRlR6aG8/view?usp=sharing


Wow! He looks like he's doing great!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

beardiedawg said:


> Gus came out of a shelter with no history. I had been doing some fostering in the past and when I saw his face, I knew I wanted to foster. I almost had a home for him and it was during the home visit that I realized I didn't want him to leave.
> 
> I recently came across these for older dogs. Not sure how well they work.
> 
> https://www.toegrips.com/


 I ordered these today. I didn't do it sooner cuz I was thinking Pippin did better sliding his feet, but once I read about them and talked to his chiro, I got excited. Should have done it when you first mentioned them. Two weeks for delivery :/

I also ordered this
http://www.solvitproducts.com/small-carelift-harness-rear-only

I took Sybbie to the vet today for vaccines and when I got there her vet didn't seem to have her records from her breeder that I had asked the receptionist to scan in weeks ago. So then I wasn't sure if she was due even though the clinic had called me and said she was. But how did they know? So we didn't get it done. Got home and found the records. She was due. It's like an hour to get to my vet. Grrrr.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Willowy I read in another thread about Suri eating a bottle of fish oil. How is she doing?


She's fine. Not even a small tummy upset. One Pupperoni and she explodes, but half a bottle of fish oil and nothing. She's weird. But I guess now she'll have an extra shiny coat for awhile . 

I've noticed Suri hasn't barked much since Toby's been gone. She was either showing off for him or he encouraged her or. . .?



> I also ordered this
> http://www.solvitproducts.com/small-...ness-rear-only


That's what I had for Toby. Very nice, I completely recommend it. One thing---the rear-only harness tends to fall off on its own. If you want it to stay on all the time you have to get the whole shebang. Or I guess you could rig a regular harness to connect it to.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

This is the harness I had for Gemma that I kept on her and it was comfortable. The built in handle really helped.

http://www.ruffwear.com/Web-Master-Harness_2?sc=2&category=1131


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I didn't get the full body harness cuz a) they had short handles and Pippin doesn't even come up to my knees b) he has a regular harness I can support his front end with c) they were a bit too expensive for me. I like that ruff-wear, Beardiedawg, I didn't see that one when I was shopping, but Pippin seems to prefer support between his back legs rather than just under his belly. 

He seemed to be feeling well tonight. He actually made a small bark for dinner or pee (not sure which, it was time for both) and he hasn't made a sound in about two months. He also finished Sybbie's dog food when he wouldn't touch dog food for weeks (I'm cooking for him).

I had an uncomfortable realization though. With all the therapy and positive signs I guess I started to think good days were coming but his liver, kidneys and bile duct have problems. He isn't going to truly "get better" even though he might improve. All I can really hope for is a more comfortable last year (months?) This is really hard for me to write.

Willowy--glad Suri is ok! I didn't consider it falling off. He'll probably only wear it for bathroom and physio so that's ok I guess. I wonder why Suri isn't barking. Do you think she's a little sad about him being gone and not feeling so boisterous?


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Pomom - I understand about the hope that good days suggest getting better.

Although Shep's bloodwork is fine, we know he has lots of undiagnosed problems, and his mind is sharp. After I stand him up in the morning and 'force' him to come on an unleashed 20 min. stroll, his stiff, achy-shaky legs loosen up. Then, I give him breakfast and 'make' him do tricks for his glucosamine pills. He brightens up like 10 years ago! I get a glimpse at reality, b/c he simply can't catch anything thrown to him due to dimming vision and slower reactions. Then, he goes to sleep for the rest of the day, giving me false hope as I watch him dreaming of running through the fields, chasing after squirrels. 

On the other hand, I'm always relieved on bad days to find half a pain pill somewhere on the floor. Shep's usually OK after taking his meds, but sometimes he doesn't swallow his gabapentin and will chomp down on it, sometimes spitting out a half capsule. He's clearly not feeling well after those times, but I may not discover why, if I don't find the lost half...


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

It must be such a relief when you find that pill! I'm glad Shep seems to have more good days than bad though. Pippin seems to be feeling good today. He just made it to the living room from the kitchen to eat Sybbie's food and then I took it away in case it should upset his stomach but offered him more of his in the kitchen and he walked back. After that he walked back to the living room to his favourite water dish (there is one in the kitchen too) this may not sound like much but it's good for him.

You are blessed that Shep's blood work is good. Pippin's is horrid. I don't know how he's still feeling ok.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I am happy to hear Shep still has more good days than bad, and that the bad is because he missed a pill. Gabapentin was such a help for Darby in her last months as well. 

Pomom, I know what you are feeling right now about Pippin. Last November Darby's bloodwork started really going off (ALT and ALPK), a 4 week re-check showed rapid worsening, and again 6 weeks later very, very high numbers. She lasted only 3 months after that before she started to get bad. I think I timed it right, because all she could do anymore was follow me to wherever I was going, plop down flat, head down and only eyes watching me. Poor baby. It's a horrible thing to have to watch them deteriorate. People would say "just enjoy her for the time you've got," but I found it really, really hard not to grieve for her in the upcoming inevitable.  
HUGS to you!!

Cookie is just as sassy as ever. She really enjoys the extra time she has now, with one less dog looking for attention  

There was a little pack re-adjustment over the last week. Echo (PWD) spent about 2 days being very snarky over toys and food, which surprised me! I ended up taking the toys/food away, and making her down some obedience and down/stay. She even got growly with my DS (11), which is unusual! I then had him run her through some obedience and had him do a down/stay with her. After that she's been back to her normal, amicable self. 
I guess Darby made the difference!

Hugs to Shep and Pippin today!!


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Beardiedawg that video of Gus is precious.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Hanksimon--thanks for that. This thread has been so great to me. You all get it!

Fourdogs--glad your pack have sorted themselves out. Echo is at that age I guess where moving up in the pack looks very attractive. Alright, Darby's gone, maybe I can take over the kids too!

Pippin hasn't peed since this morning (that I know of, I lost focus outside once) and I'm getting worried. I seem to be obsessed with his bodily functions lol. Everyday a new worry. I actually feel like I have a problem.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Peeing and pooping is a very important for us! Kona is my problem child. She only pees and poops once a day usually. Don't know how she does it. And there is usually no set time so you have to catch her right. Her outside signals aren't the best so poop in the house is always a risk. She's also a pee poop walker so it's never neatly in one place. Of course it is usually upstairs on on the living room rug. Not sure why she can't figure out to go near the door. When I walk her, that usually stimulates her but then she waits to get home and then goes to the door to go out. Days like today with tons of rain are tricky. I've kept putting her out during the breaks of rain and of course she wouldn't go. Hopefully she went for hubby while I was out.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Nope, she's finally going now, after being outside for over five minutes.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Good! You got her to go! Pippin went too. I guess I worry cuz he was very regular and fast before recently. If it's a pattern like Kona you probably don't worry as much?


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Glad she went!

Bobb is tiny (4.4 lbs as of yesterday, we aim for 4.5-4.7) and has a tiny digestive tract, and since he was with homeless people for 10 years never learned how to hold it. He's been a potty training nightmare. We haven't had an accident in maybe a week.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Glad for the peeing! It is a worry, especially when they stray from the norm, it's easy to think of the worst!

Bobb is little! Cookie maintains around 3 pounds, 14 ounces. I keep her lean because of the missing leg, but also because of the delicate-ness of that remaining front foot. I've found a new thing to worry about. I didn't worry about her this much before Darby died... I was wondering why, but I think it's because she always stuck near Darby, and so in the "stampede" of going outside, she didn't get pummeled going out/coming in. I can see it's a problem now. 

Sibe, do you have to do anything special with Bobb to keep him from being trampled by the huskies? Echo just plows through doorways. I've worked with her on sit/stay/waits, which helps, but it's certainly 'the best,' according to Echo, to just plow head first fast as you can through doorways. Ugh. 

Now with Darby gone and I don't have to worry about her ailments, I think I'm fixating on Cookie. Dh makes a disgusted face at me when I worry about her, and insists she's fine. She seems fine LOL. 

I like to worry.

HOw's Shep today?


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

fourdogs said:


> Glad for the peeing! It is a worry, especially when they stray from the norm, it's easy to think of the worst!
> 
> Bobb is little! Cookie maintains around 3 pounds, 14 ounces. I keep her lean because of the missing leg, but also because of the delicate-ness of that remaining front foot. I've found a new thing to worry about. I didn't worry about her this much before Darby died... I was wondering why, but I think it's because she always stuck near Darby, and so in the "stampede" of going outside, she didn't get pummeled going out/coming in. I can see it's a problem now.
> 
> ...


 The trampling is a concern, specifically when doors get opened. Bobb has, for the most part, learned to stay back and let them go first which I think is safest. Denali is careful but Kaytu gets so excited sometimes she doesn't know or care where her dancing feet are and she's kicked, stepped on, and trampled him a few times. I'm getting better about asking her to sit and wait to be released.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I fell asleep at 9:30pm last night, so I didn't wake Shep for his 10 -11pm gabapentin ... so he woke me up at 2:30am ! I gave him his pills, and he went back to sleep after 30 min. ... Not me! But, after reading a few hours, I fell asleep around 4am and woke up at 6:30am in time for his walk ... He was more spry than me 

Periodically, he has two unrelated issues. First, he hasn't been eating, then 12 hours later, he'll finish what he left ... effectively missing out on 50% of his calories, He doesn't do this much and hasn't lost weight, but I feel it may be a sign of slowing down... especially for a Lab!

Second, he sleeps in half sphinx position, eventually moving to his side. Many times he will 'collapse' from Sphinx to side, slamming his head against the floor. He can lie down softly, but chooses to bang his head down. If he were human, I'd say he was frustrated ... but I don't believe in dogs doing that type of emotional expression, maybe scientific thinking ignores the evidence ;-)


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Glad I'm not alone in the trampling of tiny dogs! Today I set up an expen right next to the back door to the dog yard. So now she has her own area. I will pick her up before I even say "outside" so she isn't trampled. Then put her in her pen to potty and be able to pick her up and keep her from being trampled coming in. Phew. Trying to keep everyone safe and sound!!

I'm happy to hear Shep is hanging in there. 15 is great, haven't had a dog live pat 14 yrs, 4 months . 

My FILs little chow-rat terrier mix, Bitsy made it to 15 and the only reason she was put down was because she broke her femur at the hip joint. I had always chastised him because her diet was ground beef and ol'roy milk bones! 

Foof 

How's Pippin and Gus?


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

fourdogs said:


> Glad I'm not alone in the trampling of tiny dogs! Today I set up an expen right next to the back door to the dog yard. So now she has her own area. I will pick her up before I even say "outside" so she isn't trampled. Then put her in her pen to potty and be able to pick her up and keep her from being trampled coming in. Phew. Trying to keep everyone safe and sound!!


I plan on getting a sandbox for Bobb (like the kid ones) when we move, that I'll put sod in. That way I can cover it when it's snowing! I could bring it inside too if needed, like days when we'll be gone 4-5 hours at a time. Sod is pretty cheap and easy to replace, and Bobb has good balance on it.

Something like this I can plop him into.. and either cut off part of one side or give him a wide ramp.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> I fell asleep at 9:30pm last night, so I didn't wake Shep for his 10 -11pm gabapentin ... so he woke me up at 2:30am ! I gave him his pills, and he went back to sleep after 30 min. ... Not me! But, after reading a few hours, I fell asleep around 4am and woke up at 6:30am in time for his walk ... He was more spry than me
> 
> Periodically, he has two unrelated issues. First, he hasn't been eating, then 12 hours later, he'll finish what he left ... effectively missing out on 50% of his calories, He doesn't do this much and hasn't lost weight, but I feel it may be a sign of slowing down... especially for a Lab!
> 
> Second, he sleeps in half sphinx position, eventually moving to his side. Many times he will 'collapse' from Sphinx to side, slamming his head against the floor. He can lie down softly, but chooses to bang his head down. If he were human, I'd say he was frustrated ... but I don't believe in dogs doing that type of emotional expression, maybe scientific thinking ignores the evidence ;-)


Glad he got his pill! Too bad you were up half the night. Pippin smacks his head on the floor all the time. He can't "Sphinx" and can only sit or lie on his side for some reason so he goes from sitting on his hip with both back feet out to one side, to fully down on his side in one movement. Bang! When I see him sit down, I try to move his bed in the trajectory of his lie down. Not always though. What kind of floor do you have?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> Glad I'm not alone in the trampling of tiny dogs! Today I set up an expen right next to the back door to the dog yard. So now she has her own area. I will pick her up before I even say "outside" so she isn't trampled. Then put her in her pen to potty and be able to pick her up and keep her from being trampled coming in. Phew. Trying to keep everyone safe and sound!!
> 
> I'm happy to hear Shep is hanging in there. 15 is great, haven't had a dog live pat 14 yrs, 4 months .
> 
> ...


Pippin is 15 too.

When I come home from somewhere, Sybbie gets really excited, and even though she is half Pippin's size, he is so unsteady that she has still knocked him over. I've been getting mad at her lately (mostly just grumpy voice) but you made a practical solution! Good thinking! I'll just have to pick her up when I get home. I tend to take Pippin out first (our backyard is not fenced and I can't carry both dogs at once on the stairs. Sybbie also doesn't like going through doorways on her own power lol. In addition our "backyard" is also used by our neighbour as a parking lot so I can't take someone out and tie them up and go get the other one cuz they could get run over!) so the problem is, how do I get Pippin's harness on while holding her? I guess I could put her in the other room but I think this would be pretty upsetting for her if I came home then locked her away. Hmm. I'll have to do some thinking.

Pippin had a good day today. He didn't really do anything to worry me. For once. His chiro couldn't come today though unfortunately.

Omg I'm watching this vet show, Dr, Pol and it is just graphic. Gelded a pony fully on camera and the pony was not fully out. I can't watch this!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sibe said:


> I plan on getting a sandbox for Bobb (like the kid ones) when we move, that I'll put sod in. That way I can cover it when it's snowing! I could bring it inside too if needed, like days when we'll be gone 4-5 hours at a time. Sod is pretty cheap and easy to replace, and Bobb has good balance on it]


Wow lots of creative ideas! If I had the space I would totally do this.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Dr. Pol makes me cringe. I watched a fair bit of it, and so much just seemed wrong/outdated to me but I really know extremely little about large animal vet care.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sibe said:


> Dr. Pol makes me cringe. I watched a fair bit of it, and so much just seemed wrong/outdated to me but I really know extremely little about large animal vet care.


I know. Has he never heard of intubation anaesthetic? He just gives a shot and goes to work and the animal just seems in twilight if that. And I saw him declare a horse had west Nile and leave it to die without so much as a blood test.

Nice idea on the sandbox!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Sibe, Good idea with the sandbox. I have a pea-gravel potty yard, about 20x20.' I put a short expen for her on the side and then put down artificial turf. So the pee will drain down to the gravel, where there is a french drain that drains out into the bigger yard. 
I like to have a dedicated potty area, so poo is easier to pick up, plus we are on some acres on farmland, and it keeps them from running off (we have 3 acres fenced around the house) but the problem is usually rolling in poo. Deer, Fox, rabbit, doesn't matter! LOL


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Sibe, great sandbox idea!

I'm glad everyone is hanging in there today.

An acquaintance lost her 12 year old dog yesterday. His name was Wiley. He looked just like Wile E Coyote. He was a mix of GSD, Husky, Aussie, and who-knows-what. There are a lot of those around here. They're known as Truckee Dogs. He was one of those wonderful Humane Society stories. He'd been at our shelter for over a year when he was adopted by a wonderful woman who gave him a great life. I used to run into them regularly at various local trails and go on walks with him and his owner. He was only a few months older than Toby but he was much more energetic. It was only in the past few months that he'd really slowed down. I don't know what happened. I guess it was something very sudden. It just makes me want to hold Toby even closer... and cry.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I used to watch Dr. Pol for the trainwreck like some of the posts that go on here with people who want advice but then argue about it. He does lots of stuff without anesthesia or pain meds. There's a whole facebook page about trying to put him out of business. That's when the disclaimer at the beginning of the show started stating we don't see all that goes on.

Gus will also sphinx lay. He will have one leg out on each side of his body. If I need to move him or turn him over, I always have to be careful that I move his leg into position first. Before Gus, I was fostering for about a year but other than that, this is the first time I've ever owned more than one dog at a time. I don't think my pack dynamics would change. They basically ignore each other except for getting jealous when the other gets attention. 

I think sudden is easier on the dog but perhaps harder on us since we don't have time to prepare. I try to think of the life, or lack of it, that these dogs would have without us. Even if they are with us a short time, we have exceeded the basics of what a dog needs. Sometimes when Gus licks me, I can almost see it as a thank you for saving his life.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Pomom, since you started the thread on animal shows, there was the one episode of Pitbulls when Jethro got sick and the vet thought he had the anticlotting problem and was going to die. It has some fancy name. When Gus had his pneumonia in December, the fill in vet did bloodwork because he thought Gus had that. Luckily he didn't but it was scary since I had just seen it on TV and knew how bad it was.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Beardiedawg--yup I hear you. I saw on tv someone coming home to their dogs and finding they had faugh and there was blood everywhere. This was all I could think about as I was on my way home tonight. Glad Gus didn't have it!

Pippin gave me another worry free day today! 

Sandakat -- sorry to hear about Wiley. Sounds like he had a good life. Hold Toby tight.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Well, last night was pretty nerve-wracking. Left husband, children and dogs at home while I reluctantly went grocery shopping (I used to love it,. Now I hate it!) We had pretty much empty fridge and bare shelves. 

So when I returned I found a frantic husband searching for a dust pan and I was wondering what the heck happened! 

What happened was, the retractable gate to the upstairs was left open. I don't want dogs up there- dog hair, nice carpet to pee or poop on, etc, so it's usually gated closed. 
Well, cat litter box is up there. Not only did Jack and Echo feast on what was in the box, but they also ate what I had bagged and put into the trash can!  Cat litter was all over the place! Jack had even rolled in it! (Freshly bathed the day before, of course)

Thankfully I had some peroxide to induce vomiting. Echo barfed up some disgusting grossness, and Jack only a small amount of cat litter. But that stuff is dangerous and can cause a blockage (ask me how I know!) that will cost a pretty penny in repairing! I chose to make them vomit it all up. 

Sigh. 

Of course Cookie was happily chilling out in her dog bed in the dining room the whole time, an angel of perfectness. 

How are all the other darlings today?


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Of course cats and horses leave tasty, bite sized nuggets just for the dogs! I'm glad your guys are OK.

All is good here. Toby has been a bit restless but it's been raining so he's had less walk time than usual. The weather may also been making him achy. It's really hard to tell.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

This doesn't apply to Gus but Kona since Sandakat brought up horse poop. If I was ever to try agility with her (or she was around horses), I'd have to be super careful with the sheep because she would probably eat their poop. They are wormed with ivermectin which is lethal in large doses.

I think slimy cat poop is a bit yucky pre-coffee. Good thing you knew the peroxide trick. Saved yourself a vet visit.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Hope Toby feels better. 

Finally got to washing smeared slimy clumping cat litter off Jack. So busy today through Sunday! The older my (human) kids get, the busier I get taking them to all the places for all the things! Phew.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

beardiedawg said:


> This doesn't apply to Gus but Kona since Sandakat brought up horse poop. If I was ever to try agility with her (or she was around horses), I'd have to be super careful with the sheep because she would probably eat their poop. They are wormed with ivermectin which is lethal in large doses.
> 
> I think slimy cat poop is a bit yucky pre-coffee. Good thing you knew the peroxide trick. Saved yourself a vet visit.


I try to let people who own collies (and silken windhounds) know that they have to be careful around horse and sheep poop because of the ivermectin. When I take Toby on the trails by the equestrian center in the summer I stop and ask the horse folks if the horses have been wormed with Ivermectin that week. Sorry about the OT.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

We have a very solid hardwood floor, so when Shep bangs his head ... it makes lots of noise. We also have plenty of rugs, but Shep prefers the cooler floors ... and he can't get up on the hardwood floors, but even has trouble on the rugs. 

He's been sleeping all day ... I took him to the Vet to get a thorough bath, yesterday. I think they're gentle with him, but he won't sleep while there ... So, he's still sleeping it off, today.

He didn't eat breakfast ... but no problem with treats (glucosamine is beef flavored), we'll see if he eats supper. I may have to start flavoring his food with canned food (as a condiment), again. Otherwise, today is a good day


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

At his age, if he wants canned food, give him canned food!  My grandpa always said that there was no point being 80 if he couldn't eat whatever he darn well wanted. . .


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Gus is doing a bit more coughing than usual today. That's how his last bout of pneumonia started. We were okay when he coughed and the gunk came up. It was when he stopped coughing that the trouble began. I have some of one of his antibiotics here and am debating if I should start him on it. The other I have to order from Costco and takes a couple of days to get. I'm thinking by tomorrow I'll know if I have to start him on it. He already gets gentocin in his nebulizer daily. He is resistant to many antibiotics so I hate to start it if I don't need to and risk him becoming immune to this one also.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Wow lots going on!

Fourdogs -- so glad everyone is ok. Cookie is a little lady and didn't go for the grossness. Did you have a cat litter blockage in the past? 

Sandakat -- I didn't know about ivermectin. I'm a city slicker. I don't think there are any sheep in the tiny green corner that passes for a park. But good to know!

Hanksimon-- I know about that head-floor sound. It makes me cringe. Did Shep eat dinner? Is he normally a good eater?

Beardiedawg -- that's worrisome. What did you decide to do?

Pippin had a pretty good day. Tomorrow he has physio.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I decided to hold off on the antibiotic since the vet is in today. Last night and today no coughing. I've decided to just keep an ear on him for now.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

beardiedawg said:


> I decided to hold off on the antibiotic since the vet is in today. Last night and today no coughing. I've decided to just keep an ear on him for now.


I hope he continues to do well. Pneumonia comes on so fast and hits them so hard!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sandakat said:


> I hope he continues to do well. Pneumonia comes on so fast and hits them so hard!


I'm keeping a close eye on him. Normally he coughs about 4 times a day and now it is about 10. It's a definite increase but it's not constant. When he get pneumonia, his eyes water, probably from the fluid in his lungs coming up, and his tail goes between his legs. Neither of that is happening. He's still eating like a super piggy and he is still annoying Sheltie barking.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

beardiedawg said:


> I'm keeping a close eye on him. Normally he coughs about 4 times a day and now it is about 10. It's a definite increase but it's not constant. When he get pneumonia, his eyes water, probably from the fluid in his lungs coming up, and his tail goes between his legs. Neither of that is happening. He's still eating like a super piggy and he is still annoying Sheltie barking.


That's good. It's good you know the signs.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin had physio today and she said he was less sore in his lower back. His support harness also came. http://www.solvitproducts.com/small-carelift-harness-rear-only
It works pretty well for pees n poos (he actually peed with it on which I thought he would not, but hasn't pooed yet) but he won't walk unless I bend down and support him with my hands. Not sure why. I think he feels better with support between his back legs rather than under his belly but the harness does go between the back legs too. Not sure.
His chiropractor shared a lot about herself tonight and it felt really nice. I would love it if we could be friends.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

He probably still has to get used to it but mostly it's probably because he wants Mommy to take care of him.

I'm headed off on Friday for the weekend. Hubby will be home with the dogs. I'll have to teach him how to use the nebulizer and hopefully by then I won't have to worry about him being sick.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Sigh. Snowball injured his foot a couple weeks ago - not sure what happened, he just started holding it up and hobbling around and the only thing that had happened was I clipped his nails (didn't even quick him!)... It got better over the day and he was walking almost normally (a tiny bit limpy) on it the next day, but was limping on a *different* foot, in which he has arthritis. He mostly got better over the course of a week, until I hit his hurting front paw with a door and then my husband stepped on it because we're apparently terrible people, and then he was favouring the front paw again and his back paw appeared normal.  But tonight he's limping/holding up his back foot again, and be super defensive of his other foot with the other dogs.

I'm going to call for an appointment on Monday. I really hope it's just an unfortunate combination of minor injury and arthritis flaring up with the change in the season.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Yeah we are the worst dog parents. Hopefully the vet will just say it's a sprain

I have another theory on Gus's cough. The video of him was shot last week. We usually do the dog park at least three times a week and he doesn't cough there. I think the exercise keeps things loose. We've had severe rain the past week and haven't been there. It just might be his normal stuff settling in his lungs from inactivity. I'll have todo some more intense chest thumping on him and see if it works.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

beardiedawg said:


> Yeah we are the worst dog parents. Hopefully the vet will just say it's a sprain
> 
> I have another theory on Gus's cough. The video of him was shot last week. We usually do the dog park at least three times a week and he doesn't cough there. I think the exercise keeps things loose. We've had severe rain the past week and haven't been there. It just might be his normal stuff settling in his lungs from inactivity. I'll have todo some more intense chest thumping on him and see if it works.


That's a really good thought. I hope the chest PT helps him bring the stuff up. We've had rain and now some serious snow, so Toby hasn't had much exercise either. I've noticed him limping and dragging his right back foot more. Luckily his next acupuncture is Thursday.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

The weather here has been great about 12oC which I think is about 54oF. Warm for March. Sybbie and I went to a Meetup today. Pippin didn't poo. 

Gingerkid--I hope Snowball will be ok! Probably just something inflamed and just needs time. Did you try icing it? Did you get an appointment?

Beardiedawg -- how was your weekend? Where did you go? Were you nervous about leaving Gus? I'm sure your husband was capable but he's not Mom! 

Sandakat -- Glad that the acupuncture is something you can now count on helping, anyway. That dragging back foot--is he knuckling or not lifting it?

Pippin had an ok day. He's totally unable to get up from lying down now though but he tries and tries if I don't help him. Really scary to leave him home alone. I'm worried hell hurt himself too..


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I leave Friday for my trip. I've had butterflies all day wondering about Gus. I ha5a wellness visit scheduled tomorrow for Kona and may bring him instead or just make a different one for peace of mind. 

It doesn't help that tomorrow is four years since I put Gemma to sleep. I had just started her on gabapentin the week before. She had a seizure around 7 pm on the 13th and then another one around 2 am. I sat with her the rest of the night and was waiting when the vet got in.

I don't know if I am projecting past feelings or not but will probably need to bring him in just so I can enjoy my trip.

Gemma was a hard one since hubby was away on business and didn't get to say goodbye. Plus it's bittersweet because it's my birthday.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Dear Beardiedawg. That is really hard.mGemma died on your birthday? How awful. If you'll feel better if you take Gus in then do it. You deserve a nice weekend. I know what it's like to feel like sometimes you'd just rather stay home than worry. Are you going far? Business or pleasure, as they say? If it's possible, have a happy birthday! Let us know how it goes at the vet.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I had a really great day. Sybbie had class which didn't start so well cuz we did paw target and then tug/drop it and Sybbie does not understand paw target or how to play with toys. But the end was good. Sort of. We clearly need to practice more. We don't practice cuz Pippin has this empty stomach pill that has to be no food for three hours before or three hours after and I can't be feeding Sybbie treats and not him. Other times I dont want to disturb him. Maybe now with the nicer weather well practice outside and let him sleep. He seems to enjoy it though. Anyhow, after that I made myself a really nice lunch, had a nap, worked a bit and went out to dinner with my sister in law. Pippin was feeling alright and gave me another worry free day (or as close to it as I ever get these days.)

How is Cookie and the gang?

How is Shep?

Did Snowball see the vet?

How is Toby?


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

The turd really is fine. It's just a case of a paranoid neurotic mother. 

I'm heading to southwest Texas to go bird watching with a friend. It's a new experience for me and I'm looking forward to it.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sounds great! Turd? Hahha.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

That empty stomach thing is hard. Depending on what I read, Gus should get his thyroid pill on an empty stomach. Its hard balancing that and taking them to the dog park for exercise and worrying bloat. I wound up having to increase the dose and I don't know if it's the food or that they discontinued the brand he was talking.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Pomom said:


> Did Snowball see the vet?


Snowball didn't see the vet - the two younger dogs got into onion soup last night so we've been dealing with that (I'm pretty sure Ida has a death-wish...)... I have to take Ida in for a follow-up tomorrow so I'll book an appt for Snowball when I'm actually in the office. He's still limping on and off (although the limp is magically better as soon as he's outside...). I hope it's just a stubborn injury.... Vet's probably going to require x-rays.... So not looking forward to my visa bill this month.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

How are Snowball and Gus?
How's Toby doing?
Sounds like Pippin is hanging in there! <3 

Cookie and the gang are doing well. I am so happy I put in a smaller ex-pen in the potty yard. I carry Cookie out, place her in her pen, and then let the 2 wild ones go as well. No trampling! When it's time to come in, same deal, let in the wild ones, pick up Cookie and set her down safely. This has made me feel a lot better. I didn't realize how she was sticking so close to Darby and avoiding the trampling! 

She's also doing a lot better with peeing outside. I am trying to get her out every hour, and she has started to do this pant/tail wag thing that lets us know she needs outside if she's near us. Very handy! I was able to take off her pee-pants, but I do have her pee pad down on the floor in the sun room (tiled, and it's the door where they go to the potty yard). I don't think I could ever have any rugs down though, as she will believe they are wonderful, giant pee pads just for her. 

That's ok though, because I'd have to monkey with 2 different vacuum attachments, 1 for the rugs and one for the hard floors.

Cookie's been on her joint supplement now for a good week. She seems bouncier/more willing to walk a little farther than usual, so that's a good change.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Snowball's not limping at all this morning, because he loves to make a liar out of me. Still going to see the vet about it; even if it's not serious, I'd like to get some pain meds for him.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> Snowball's not limping at all this morning, because he loves to make a liar out of me. Still going to see the vet about it; even if it's not serious, I'd like to get some pain meds for him.


So Snowball is a turd also. I think these dogs have a conspiracy against us to see how worried we can get. I can imagine the conversation. "Hey, guys. I'm going to limp around a bit and look really pitiful. While I'm doing it, it will distract mom enough so you can go eat something toxic. The Easter chocolate isn't out yet but I think that looks like onion soup."


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

All is status quo with Toby. The weather has cleared up so I'm hoping to take him on some more interesting walks than just up our block. We're still trying to figure out how much of his hearing is gone vs he's... a turd... We think it's both.

I'm glad Snowball's foot is getting better. Sometimes it's all about the drama.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I am freaked out tonight. Pippin feels really thin but when I weigh him he's the same as always. And when I got him up for last pee I felt this weird crackling under his skin by his left rib cage. When I switched him to the homemade food I calculated the calories and have been giving him triple what my vet thought I should give him but I don't think she calculated, just went by what her own dog the same size eats. Every time something happens I feel certain it is the end. I hate this! I didn't feel the crackling after we went out. My first thought was there was air in there but if he had a punctured lung or something he wouldn't be sleeping with nice even breaths right now. I'm seeing all these different horrible deaths in my mind right now. Oh help.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Bobb is screaming whenever I touch his face. Like the pain kind of screaming. If he's not any better by morning we'll be going to the vet. Seems to be under his eye on his muzzle, which makes me really worry because he's had much oral trauma in there and he does have a molar or two back there still.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Gingerkid, how are the onion soup kids doing??

Pomom, the crackling would be air in the chest cavity, not good. Can you get to the vet for a quick look? ((((((((HUGS)))))))) hang in there. You've been an amazing mom to him, and he knows you've got his back whatever happens. <3

Sibe, Thinking good thoughts for Bobb! I hope he doesn't have an abscessed tooth up there causing pain. How's he doing now?

the fourdogs three are doing fine. Like I said in my last post, glad i have the trampling thing figured out. I was almost feeling like we should re-home her for her safety, but now it's good. Will be a nice day, hope to get outside and do a little outside stuff along with our usual chores and homeschooling.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Pomom, I second going to a vet. The crackling could certainly be air under the skin. This can come from air that has come out of the lung and tracked up along the bronchi or from any hole in the lung. If it's just a small amount of air you can still breathe well, but it can progress quickly. A chest xray can easily help sort this out.

Sibe, I hope Bobb's teeth are OK. That poor dog has been through so much!

Toby had a rough afternoon. First he got stuck in the snow. He went out into some snow to poop and ended up punching through the crust when he was coming back to me. He gave a small effort to get out and then just sat down and looked at me pitifully. I had to wade out into the snow, which was about knee deep, and lift his butt up so he could get out. Then he tripped going up the stairs and had to be helped. He was better last night but he woke me up at 5am this morning vomiting. I have no idea what that's about. Darn dog!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

It sounds like all the dogs have learned to read and have a conspiracy going on. 

Sandakat, could Toby have eaten snow while he was out there and it made his tummy upset?

It sounds like Bobb has an abscess. I remember all the pictures when you first got him. It's so amazing at how a dog can survive something like that.

Pomom, did you go to the vet? That is a new symptom of something that I just learned. I'll have to keep that in mind with Gus.

Fourdogs, you know that no one else could take as good care as your baby, trampled or not. It does sound like you have a good routine figured out.

A bit more coughing from Gus yesterday but he is acting fine so I am not going to worry about it. Guess he didn't want to feel left out with all the senior issues going on.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Bobb is fine today, thank goodness. Did well in his agility class but he's not catching on to curved tunnels that he can't see all the way through.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

beardiedawg said:


> That empty stomach thing is hard. Depending on what I read, Gus should get his thyroid pill on an empty stomach. Its hard balancing that and taking them to the dog park for exercise and worrying bloat. I wound up having to increase the dose and I don't know if it's the food or that they discontinued the brand he was talking.


Ya it's hard. I used to give Pippin's empty stomach pill at 1 am. I get home from work at 9:30 so last meal is at around 10. But sometimes I can't stay up that late. I used to set an alarm or sleep on the couch until 1 but that just sucks. Now I give breakfast at 10, empty stomach pill at 1pm, lunch at 4 and dinner at 10. It's not perfect but it's ok.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sibe said:


> Bobb is fine today, thank goodness. Did well in his agility class but he's not catching on to curved tunnels that he can't see all the way through.


That's just amazing that he does agility. You need to video this and show it to all the people who say they can't train their dogs.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Waiting to hear from Pomom. Hopefully there is good news.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I think I described it wrong. I was panicking. I called my vet and she said air would feel like bubble wrap under the skin. It's not that. It's more like a pulsing. His physio couldn't feel it and said it might have been a muscle spasm. My student who is a physician tried to find it and said it was his heart beating but I don't think she was feeling the same thing as me. I don't know but my vet said air pretty much can't happen without severe trauma - a car accident or dog fight being the likely causes. I feel really bad cuz I called her at home :/ I think I am becoming one of those clients that doctors hate lol.

As for him being too thin, he feels ok to me today. Go figure. He hadn't lost weight so it must have been the way he was lying/distributing his weight that made him feel bony to me. I am increasing his food a little anyway. Either that or I am losing my mind. I have been worrying about his dying for like seven years and now that it is nigh I'm a nervous wreck. I'm actually talking to a professional periodically about it. Yup, I am a case. Lol.

I still feel unsure but he's acting totally fine, had physio, two good poos and appetite is good. I feel like I'm using my vet as a therapist and she must hate me lol.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm so happy that he's fine!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Pomom, vets love people like us. We put their kids through graduate school. Seriously, I think they'd much rather see a paranoid owner bring in a well dog than have to treat the tenth dog of the day for hearworms or remove a tumor the size of a grapefruit, or have to shave a dog like Bobb and find such a thing.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks everybody! Sybbie has her annual on Sunday so I'm going to take him in then, just to be sure. Now I'm scared that it is his heart though cuz it's arrhythmic. He's behaving like himself though. I had nightmares. I dreamt I had all these hamsters that I had forgotten to feed for months. One of them had shrunk to the size of a coin and I had to find a home "remedy" way to mercy kill it.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

beardiedawg said:


> Pomom, vets love people like us. We put their kids through graduate school. Seriously, I think they'd much rather see a paranoid owner bring in a well dog than have to treat the tenth dog of the day for hearworms or remove a tumor the size of a grapefruit, or have to shave a dog like Bobb and find such a thing.


2+ on this. They'd much rather have something be a nonissue with a worried owner than to have to give bad news or see a neglected or abused animal.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Pomom said:


> Thanks everybody! Sybbie has her annual on Sunday so I'm going to take him in then, just to be sure. Now I'm scared that it is his heart though cuz it's arrhythmic. He's behaving like himself though. I had nightmares. I dreamt I had all these hamsters that I had forgotten to feed for months. One of them had shrunk to the size of a coin and I had to find a home "remedy" way to mercy kill it.


Oh, I've had the same dream in the past where I've also forgotten to feed something for months. Can't remember what it was exactly but I think a rabbit. We don't have enough real life problem animals to deal with so I guess we need to create more to feed our obsessive/compulsive behaviors.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

beardiedawg said:


> Oh, I've had the same dream in the past where I've also forgotten to feed something for months. Can't remember what it was exactly but I think a rabbit. We don't have enough real life problem animals to deal with so I guess we need to create more to feed our obsessive/compulsive behaviors.


 I have this dream with babies. I don't have kids. Every dream where I have a baby or child, I neglect it usually to death. Not feeding it, leaving it in a hot car, forgetting I even have one...


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

beardiedawg said:


> So Snowball is a turd also. I think these dogs have a conspiracy against us to see how worried we can get. I can imagine the conversation. "Hey, guys. I'm going to limp around a bit and look really pitiful. While I'm doing it, it will distract mom enough so you can go eat something toxic. The Easter chocolate isn't out yet but I think that looks like onion soup."


He is SUCH a turd.

Started limping again... took him to tricks class on Tuesday anyway because he hasn't been getting walks and the tricks being taught were either things we already knew or could be done with minimal movement. He limped in and limped out but was totally fine in the classroom... limping again when we got home.

Of course, our appointment is tomorrow and he hasn't limped at all today and isn't even favouring any of his paws. *facepalm*


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

gingerkid said:


> He is SUCH a turd.
> 
> Started limping again... took him to tricks class on Tuesday anyway because he hasn't been getting walks and the tricks being taught were either things we already knew or could be done with minimal movement. He limped in and limped out but was totally fine in the classroom... limping again when we got home.
> 
> Of course, our appointment is tomorrow and he hasn't limped at all today and isn't even favouring any of his paws. *facepalm*


 What a booger!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Now I've been trying to decide lately if Gus is deaf, going deaf, or selectively deaf. I know when he is licking his legs and I tell him to knock it off, he ignores me. If he is sleeping, he sometimes doesn't know I'm there. One of the side effects of gentocin, which I put in his nebulizer, is deafness that is reversible once taken off the medicine. I don't even know if it is when you nebulize with it or if it just pertains to IV. It doesn't seem to affect him. I'm not sure it even matters one way or another. I'll have to try the drop the food in the bowl test when Kona isn't around to give him a clue about what is happening.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

beardiedawg said:


> Oh, I've had the same dream in the past where I've also forgotten to feed something for months. Can't remember what it was exactly but I think a rabbit. We don't have enough real life problem animals to deal with so I guess we need to create more to feed our obsessive/compulsive behaviors.


 Thanks for what you said about vets. Also for telling me this! I love this thread! You all are MY PEOPLE!!!
Re Gus going deaf is Kona ever not around? Trying to think of another test. Maybe just say his name at varying volumes when he's not looking at you but awake?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sibe said:


> I have this dream with babies. I don't have kids. Every dream where I have a baby or child, I neglect it usually to death. Not feeding it, leaving it in a hot car, forgetting I even have one...


Really?!? This dream is a THING? I'm so relieved! Usually it's fish with me and half of them are dead and gross. I've been dreaming about dead fish most of my life!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

gingerkid said:


> He is SUCH a turd.
> 
> Started limping again... took him to tricks class on Tuesday anyway because he hasn't been getting walks and the tricks being taught were either things we already knew or could be done with minimal movement. He limped in and limped out but was totally fine in the classroom... limping again when we got home.
> 
> Of course, our appointment is tomorrow and he hasn't limped at all today and isn't even favouring any of his paws. *facepalm*


Ugh. I think turd is our new favourite word. Did the weather shift?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Pippin fell down while pooing tonight. I thought he was done so I took him inside. Apparently not. He pooed then sat in it in the hall then he does this 360o thing where he'll be sitting and push with his front legs to turn himself around. He did this ON THE POO. I put him in the tub but didn't want him to fall so I lay him down then cleaned the floor. so of course his whole left side got wet. Had to lay him on the bath mat and blow dry him since if I didn't he'd lie on that side all night and it would never air dry. This was all as soon as I got home from work when all I wanted to do was get the dogs fed and sit down.

I actually started considering pts before he was actively dying. Had a horrible few hours when I felt like I had made the decision. Then I talked to my friend who has a dog who has been disabled for nine or ten years and she said just because he is disabled doesn't mean he wants to go. I think sometimes that's not true but Pippin does still seem like himself with things bringing him joy so I took pts off the mental table and felt better. Somewhere in my mind though, I'm preparing for this Sunday's vet visit to be bad news and I won't take extraordinary measures.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Poor Pippin! How's he doing today?

Toby had another acupuncture treatment yesterday. I told the vet that I was concerned about his front legs as well as his rear, so she did some points around his shoulders as well as his hips. We'll see how he does today.

Beardiedawg, it's amazing how difficult it is to assess their hearing. We think Toby is losing his, but sometimes it seems that he can hear. We also aren't sure if he's starting to mentally decline, which might be confused with hearing loss if he's not responding to us. I have no idea how to figure this out.

We had a long talk after Toby got stuck in the snow, almost fell over pooping, and then fell going up the stairs. We're not going to make him live beyond his dignity. This is a dog that everyone, even after just meeting him, describes as "regal" and "dignified". Taking that away from him would just be cruel. We don't know what that will look like but I'm glad we're on the same page with this.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Pomom said:


> Ugh. I think turd is our new favourite word. Did the weather shift?


If anything, it got colder when he was feeling better. Vet this morning said it's likely arthritis plus random injury (like getting stepped on) and reduced exercise (because I've been lazy and because I didn't want to overwork him if he was injured), which explains why he was better the morning after we went to tricks class. Vet said there was notable muscle loss around both of his knees, but one more than the other, so we'll have to work to keep that in check.

In short, old dog is getting old.  Doc's orders are limited activity and metacam BID for 10 days for his front paw, and then we'll shift to metacam as needed for general aches (at least for now).


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

My newest theory/paranoid thought is that the popping in Pippin's side is a broken rib. He thrashes about when he's trying to get up so is it possible? He doesn't seem to be in pain though. He sees the vet on Sunday and I'm gonna be broke after. Not a word of exaggeration.

I feel like doody. I had nightmares again. I dreamt my vet came to my work where I was living and wanted to examine Pippin but I was working. Then the piano I was playing started flying and she was with me and for a moment I felt safe until she turned into this evil face. Then I was still asleep but thought I was awake and could see the wires for my phone and lamp on my bedside table writhing. I thought I was screaming but made no sound.

Gingerkid--sounds like it should heal alright and hopefully you won't need the Metacam too often. The muscle loss is a concern but now that you know is there anything you can do?

Sandakat -- how was Toby after the acupuncture? Good that you had that conversation. It's still really hard to judge how far is too far. I'm there with Pippin now. I may have waited too long but his enthusiasm for things makes me wait.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Just maintain moderate level of exercise, to help combat the muscle loss. He really didn't get walked much over the winter. I could blame being busy, but really now that we have a yard, I've gotten lazy; it was dark when I got home and the bed is so warm in the morning... Now that its light out longer I really have no excuses.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

(((Pomom))) Facing death of loved one is HARD. I agonized for months with Darby. I think it was made far worse by Lexi's traumatic passing. Darby's was only marginally better, but she was in such pain that huge amounts of meds weren't helping and there was no getting better. Lying on the floor, head down, eyes tracking my every movement and moaning. Not good. 

I guess it's a matter of you know your dog best. Even if your friend says disabled dogs are happy- some are. I know you will make the right decision for him when it's needed, and try to take comfort (it's hard, so hard, I know!) in knowing you had his best interests at heart! 

It's like, what, 3 weeks now since Darby passed? I am feeling more normal now. I miss her, but it's not so intense and overwhelming. 

I have her ashes, and the ashes of her mom, Lexi and one guinea pig, Diego (LOL, long story- lived in CA, and he was very old and ailing. He was close to death but really suffering. So I took him in to have him PTS. Don't you know it's illegal to bury a guinea pig in CA? My choice was then to either have him mass cremated for $200 or private for $225 LOL. He was a nice pig, so hey, why not? So he's in a box on my shelf now). So silly. 
Anyway, I feel like she shouldn't be locked up in a box. She should be free, shouldn't she? Should I scatter her around the property? Should I just bury the box and the ashes? Should I just leave her up on the shelf? (Same for Lexi). 

Meantime, all is well with the fourdogs three.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Fourdogs - I think you might scatter the ashes for the widest dispersal of love.

Pomom - Sorry to hear it. Shep falls (trips) when we walk in the field. I don't think the falling bothers him, he's just frustrated that I walked away and he couldn't follow. Also, most of the time, I have to stand him up when we are inside [he barks to let me know], but he can hobble around after that, and on good days, the walks seem to help loosen him up. And, he still loves to see other people. I think some owners might do much more for Shep, but I'm not clear it would improve his life.

Sandakat - Shep has both arthritis and nerve pain [I noticed that he is much happier when it's colder, and the Vet tried gabapentin, which helped]. He also has degraded hearing from age and from a low grade yeast infection related to allergies and high pollen. If I'm behind him and clap, he may turn his ears toward me, but he can also be startled by people walking up from behind. If he is walking away, he may not come back when called, unless I greatly increase volume or use more piercing sounds. Dogs can typically hear high sounds, clickers, whistles, and words with "s" a little better. One blessing of reduced hearing is that firecrackers are longer an issue.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I didn't see it before, but I'm sorry for your loss fourdogs.

How is Pippin doing today Pomom?


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Pomom, I'm not surprised you're having nightmares. You have so much on your plate right now. I hope you can find some time to take care of yourself and let your mind rest.

Toby hasn't responded to the acupuncture this time as well as the last time. We may have to go back to once a week. I had to help him up this morning on our walk after he ducked under a branch to sniff something and couldn't get back up. He's also noticeably limping on his front legs as well as his back ones. He's very nervous going up the car steps. I have to seriously bribe him to do it. It's going to be awful when he finally refuses to go up them. That means we're stuck walking him on our block instead of taking him somewhere. We're both already bored to tears with that walk. (I did get him in the car yesterday and we went to a closed off road to walk. He was able to meander off leash and sniff stuff. He was more animated than I've seen him in a while.)


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I said goodbye to Pippin today. I took him in and the vet heard crackling in his lungs. He was SO lethargic. I knew it was time. I sat with him feeding him liver treats for an hour (he loves them but I never gave them to him cuz they give him diarrhea) and then he went on to better things. He was very relaxed, always has been at the vet cuz I used to work there, and I felt at peace.

Sybbie has been weird all night. She won't walk places. She had her annual while we were there and apparently was very difficult for the blood draw. I put the leash on her and she refuses to move. I would like to believe my worries will be greatly reduced now, but maybe like you, Fourdogs, the worries will be transferred to another dog. I hope not. I need about a decade off!

I have been surrounded with love tonight. So many people have given me their well wishes. It is really touching.

I hope it's alright with everyone that I still post on this thread even though I am no longer a senior dog mom. I really care about all of you and your seniors.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Fourdogs -- I have Hope on a shelf, soon to be joined by Pippin. The box doesn't open so I can't scatter even if I wanted to. If you would feel better if Lexi and Darby were free then do it. They are already free though. The remains aren't them but their essence is already everywhere.

Hanksimon-- how is Shep today?

Gingerkid--thanks for asking. How is your gang?

Sandakat -- good to hear Toby enjoyed his walk. It's upsetting that the acupuncture wasn't much help this time though. How often are you doing it? Are you able to lift him at all? How much does he weigh? What are the car steps like?


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

I'm sorry for your loss Pomom. You did good by Pippin and will do good by Sybbie too.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I am so sorry to hear about Pippin Pomom. I'm glad he was able to depart peacefully.

My crew is good. The metacam has made a huge difference for Snowball - he has attempted playing with the younger ladies several times today, and though it has been short lived it's been so good to see him so peppy again. Not that he was lethargic before, but I guess when a condition gets worse slowly overtime you just don't notice the changes really, you know?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks friends.

Sounds like Snowball is feeling tons better! That's great!


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Pomom said:


> I said goodbye to Pippin today.


 I'm so sorry, Pomom. It sounds like he and you were as ready as you were ever going to be. I'm glad it was peaceful and he was relaxed.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Pomom, I'm so sorry to hear about Pippin. It sounds like he was telling you it was time. Hugs to you!

Gingerkid, Yay! on Snowball feeling better. I think they all channel their inner Lassie and provide us with drama sometimes.

Toby got acupuncture weekly for 3 times and then we moved it up to 2 weeks apart. He weighs 76 pounds. (I put some recent pics on the pictures page.) I can't easily lift him. He also can't stand on his hind legs for me to lift his butt into the car because his rear end is weak. The steps are folding steps that are designed for cars. They're very stable but kind of narrow. I think that's what makes him nervous.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Just getting back from my trip and catching up. Just a quick post for now.

I'm so sorry to hear about Pippin. Sounds like you both knew it was time. Of course you should post here. I think the information on this page is so helpful to so many people. It would be a shame for your knowledge to go to waste.

All if fine here with Gus. Will be back later when more awake and functioning.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Oh Pomom, my heart just dropped. Lots and love and hugs coming your way, and I think you made a good choice for Pippin. He had a very, very good momma. 

I'm still checking in to see how Shep, Toby and Snowball, Gus and Bobb (and anyone else I've spaced off!) are doing. Cookie is doing very very well on her glucosamine/joint supplement. She's a lot peppier and doesn't ask to come 'up' quite so much. And maybe it's having her own potty yard, too, she's not getting kicked around by my enthusiastic PWD. 

Has it been 4 weeks since Darby left me? I think so... I don't ache for her anymore. She did visit me in a dream (phew, I was getting worried!), and brought a puppy along with (another bichon). I was trying to think of a name that was "as good as" Darby. I don't know why but I absolutely LOVE that name! Anyway, I told DH about the dream, and he suggested Candy, and I said, you know, that was one of the names I had come up with in my dream LOL.

But. I don't want any more dogs right now. my 2 and 1/8 dogs is just about right for now!

Snowball's mom- metacam worked well for Darby too. You can add gabapentin or tramadol as the need arises, they all worked very well together for her. 

Hugs to everyone, especially Pomom!!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> Sybbie has been weird all night. She won't walk places. She had her annual while we were there and apparently was very difficult for the blood draw. I put the leash on her and she refuses to move. I would like to believe my worries will be greatly reduced now, but maybe like you, Fourdogs, the worries will be transferred to another dog. I hope not. I need about a decade off!
> 
> 
> I hope it's alright with everyone that I still post on this thread even though I am no longer a senior dog mom. I really care about all of you and your seniors.


Please do keep checking in, I am still 

Sybbie needs a little time to adjust to being the only dog. When my first dog, Gobie, died, my bichon girls Lexi and Darby were very nervous for several weeks, they were weird on walks (walking behind me, looking back and forth nervously) instead of relaxed and pulling on leashes as usual. They did come around eventually.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks for the condolences everybody!

Today I've found out how much time and worry Pippin was taking up. Everything feels easy and of course I feel guilty. I texted my friend saying I was a bit relieved and then immediately followed it up with "but I will always love him most of all the dogs I've had," which was true, but I felt like I was writing it in case Pippin was in a place where he could read and was watching me. I hope he understands I miss him but he must be relieved too if he is in this magical reading place. I don't like that were separated but it's acceptable.

I had an audition for another orchestra tonight and Sybbie apparently barked the whole time according to my brother who lives upstairs.

Sandakat -- Toby is big. Thats a worry. Maybe you can find some wider stairs or a ramp? Are you gonna go back to weekly acupuncture?

Beardiedawg -- glad Gus is well. Tell us more when you get a chance.

Fourdogs -- I love the name Darby too! I'm not crazy about "Sybbie" but she came with the name "CC" which was worse so I tried to find something similar. What else happened in your dream? Glad Cookie is doing well.

Sibe--thanks for your words. How is Bobb?


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I've never renamed my dogs close to their original names. Gemma was originally Sadie, Kona was Hope and Gus, well, he wasn't supposed to be here long enough for me to change his name. It turns out the name does fit him though. I just hate that it's the traditional Scottish name they give many Shelties.

Hubby had a hard time doing Gus's nebulizer on Friday so he didn't do it on Saturday. Gus acted petrified of him doing it. Since I got in late Sunday, I didn't do it or Monday figuring I'd give him another go without it. He's coughing a bit more which didn't really worry me but it's a thicker cough like he has a hard time getting it up so I restarted today. Guess it's forever.

Sandacat, I wouldn't be able to use those stairs with Kona. She's afraid of our regular stairs and does them so slow. Don't think she'd ever try those. She's "only" 60 pounds but that's heavy for her. I'm trying to get her down another 5 pounds. It makes a difference when I have to pick her up.

It sounds like everyone is dealing with their losses as well as can be expected. I think we are all so in tune with our dogs that we know when it's time for both them and us. 

I never told you guys. All my animals have a middle name and it's the same. Earl. I used to love Days of Our Lives when I was younger and they all got it from the character Patch. I had my dog Benji Earl, rabbits Fidgit Earl and Earl Earl, then Gemma Earl and now Kona Earl and Gus Earl. I always use it when I'm chastising them for something. Oh, and the birds were Dusty Earl and Sammy Earl.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I'm feeling more sadness tonight. At first it was just like I was set free from a dark cloud but now the loss is hitting me. Pippin was with me for many milestones and I feel like a connection to the past is gone. I feel like I can hardly remember him healthy and that makes me sad too.

Beardiedawg -- how was your weekend? I wonder why Gus wouldn't let your hubby do the nebulizer. I hope he will be alright.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

fourdogs - If I missed it, sorry about Darby. Thanks for asking about Shep.

Pomom, I'm so sorry to hear about Pippin. Self-indulgent suggestion: Go somewhere where you can cry without someone saying, "Is everything OK?" Then, get a pad of paper - if you prefer writing; a cell phone - if you prefer talking; or an instrument - if you can put it to music ;-) And start in the beginning or the middle and record (in order to remember and grieve) the pain in the neck times, then when Pippin became your heart dog, and any nice anecdotes, stories, epiphanies and it may help to purge the remaining pain and guilt.

As expected, Shep continues to decline slowly, and what's frustrating is that he continues to learn ways to compensate. He needs help to get up most of the time, but he no longer yelps, he calmly barks once - the command of 15 years that "I want you" to let me in the house, let me out to go to the bathroom, and now ... come pick me up. 

The regular schedule of 3 gabapentin doses: 7am, 4:30pm (both before walks), and 10:30pm seem to help significantly, even though I have to wake him for each one ... but he gets a little peanut butter with each pill. 

Both his front legs seem to have increased arthritis - they're still at first and respond well to the walks. One back leg responds to exercise, but I think the other may be nerve degeneration ... gabapentin seems to help them all. Ten years ago, it wasn't a big deal to walk in the street with temperatures over 100 degrees ... Now 70 degrees seems to be difficult - I think the cold helps nerve pain, and I think his tolerance to heat is much less. Except for me waking him up, Shep seems to sleep well most of the night and day. Although it sounds bad, it's mostly status quo, and I think he could easily coast at this stage for two more years. On the other hand, I expect to pick him up one morning or night ... and he'll just slide back down. Not looking forward to that.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Hanksimon--thank you that is a good idea.

Old Shep. I hope he will stay status quo for a long time. These things can sometimes stabilize and not progress past a manageable point. It's lucky the Gabapentin helps. Pippin probably would have lasted longer if he hadn't had to be on a drug with so many side effects. As for the heat I guess you are dreading the summer. I know what it's like to feel like any day, standing up may not happen. That is a horrible anvil to live under.

I feel like I am not taking proper care of Sybbie because I am not worried about her every second. I don't spend as much time on her as I did Pippin. It feels like I am doing something wrong. Nightmares continue. Her routine blood test came back perfect. I feel nuts.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

May I join? Blue is not really very old for a small dog, she is 8. She had a very rough start in life and has always been delicate. A few years ago a lump popped up on her shoulder. The vet checked it out and assured us it was benign, not to worry about it unless it grew or started to affect her. It has been growing recently and I noticed a second lump further down her back. I was going to schedule and appt to have them looked at, I just hate to have her go through surgery (though she could use a dental as well). She has been skipping meals the past two days, she usually eats 3 small meals but she has only eaten 1.5 and has been drinking a lot of water. Today she had what looked like a seizure. Now she is walking oddly. Hopefully the vet has answers.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Remaru said:


> May I join? Blue is not really very old for a small dog, she is 8. She had a very rough start in life and has always been delicate. A few years ago a lump popped up on her shoulder. The vet checked it out and assured us it was benign, not to worry about it unless it grew or started to affect her. It has been growing recently and I noticed a second lump further down her back. I was going to schedule and appt to have them looked at, I just hate to have her go through surgery (though she could use a dental as well). She has been skipping meals the past two days, she usually eats 3 small meals but she has only eaten 1.5 and has been drinking a lot of water. Today she had what looked like a seizure. Now she is walking oddly. Hopefully the vet has answers.


Of course you can join! Poor Blue, that doesn't sound good. I can understand not wanting to go through surgery. Unless it's going to make a difference in the dog's life, why do it?

Pomom, please stop beating yourself up. You are taking fine care of your dogs. You gave more time to Pippin because Pippin needed it. Luckily Sybbie doesn't right now. That's a good thing. Good labs are a good thing. Enjoy that. Let yourself mourn Pippin and don't worry about Sybbie. She'll be fine.

Hanksimon, I hope Shep continues to creak along at status quo. Watching them decline sucks.

Toby seems to get worse daily. Now he is definitely limping on his front legs as well as the back. I made an extra acupuncture appointment for this afternoon. I hope it helps. If we lived in a one storey house it wouldn't be so noticeable but the fact that he has to go up a full flight to even get into the house makes the limping obvious. 6 months ago he was fine. I don't know if the harder winter we've had has pushed him over the edge or if it's just his age. Either way I hate it. Thanks for letting me whine to you guys. It's just so hard. Toby was my first dog. He's so completely wrapped around my heart... It hurts to see him like this.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Pomom, I've always thought that even if a drug shortened my dogs life, I'd rather have less quality time with my dog than more time just to have the time.

Ah, bugger. Hubby is coming to annoy me. Will have to finish my thoughts later. Welcome Remaru. Quickly, not knowing the symptoms, look up Vestibular Disease and see if any of that fits what is going on with Blue.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Thank you. I will definitely look into that. She had about 4 episodes from 10Am to 8pm, acted very odd in between. She couldn't walk, just wobbled and fell down or walked sort of crooked and then collapsed. Mostly she laid on a blanket and didn't move much. Then at 8pm she was suddenly completely normal, like nothing ever happened. She ate her evening meal, went or her evening walk, drank water, frisked around after my son, totally normal. She has been normal all day today as well. The vet felt fairly certain she was having seizures but doesn't know what the cause may be so he did a blood panel. We tried to get a urine sample but were unsuccessful (we are going to try again, tiny dog squats really low to the ground). He told us to call if she has another seizure. He said it is possible it is idiopathic seizures, could be diabetic, could be thyroid (though she isn't showing other signs), or it could be something that never happens again. So we are waiting on blood work and hoping she has no more.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Are her gums white? It could be anemia. Probably the vet checked for that.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

No, her gums are normal. Her temperature is normal and heart also sounds normal which is good. I'm hoping we get some answers from the blood work but I'm also sort of hoping we never see another seizure and it was just some fluke thing.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

Well, I'm sad to be here, but also glad to be here. Just wanted to poke my head in and read some of your dog's stories. I'll be sharing Tucker's as we go down our path.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Remaru - I'm not saying to have surgery - the lumps are probably minor compared to the seizures, but ask the Vet, and have the growing lumps removed sooner rather than waiting ... but discuss the benefits and side effects in detail before proceeding.

beardiedawg - I agree about the drugs vs. quality of life, but some drugs seem to trade quantity for minor pain improvements, seeming like decrease in quality. Because of Shep's 'strange' symptoms arthritis like pain that is better in the cold and worse when it's warm (may indicate nerve issues, also), I didn't like how he reacted with Tramadol, and NSAIDS increased his liver number quickly. Gabapentin didn't reduce pain as much as Metacam, but if we stay on schedule, it seems adequate, especially if I can keep up the daily exercise. I know you weren't referring to me, but I think others have similar experience.

Pomom - I feel the same way about Shep - I could do lots more. And, I was depressed when I wrote last time, b/c he was having a bad day. A bad day is walking with tail down, and good day is with tail up ;-) He also is eating half as much and not pooping in the morning. I've since figured it out - He sleeps peacefully and lies quietly for about 22 hours a day, so he only needs to eat half as much. It's not that he won't eat (I can stuff him with peanut butter all day), he just isn't hungry. And he's losing weight, but it's not dropping off. And, I found another gabapentin on the floor ... He sucked all the peanut butter off one of them, and spat the pill on the rug ... so he was a little more creaky than expected - worse after the walk rather than better. So, I gave him another pill and he's fine


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Gosh, the search the floor for gabapentin game sure doesn't sound fun. Luckily pill wise, Gus takes his thyroid medicine like treats and I don't need to put them in anything. When I do the mega doses of antibiotics, I use liverwurst. That seems to do the trick. He swallows it whole and I don't have to worry about him licking it off the pill. 

Sandacat, my heart aches for you. It's so hard that Toby's living arrangement is the thing that hurts him the most. It's times like this that I envy people with small dogs.

Remaru, how soon after the seizures did the vet do the bloodwork? I thought I had heard that it had to be within a certain time frame in order to get a read on seizures. I could be completely wrong, though. 

Hanksmom, I understand completely about the tail. That is one way I can now tell if Gus is feeling well or not. When he has pneumonia, it is completely between his legs. We've been having some good days lately. The nebulization definitely helps.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Hanksimon, The vet was not concerned about the lumps. I do think we will consider having them removed as she needs to have a dental cleaning so I think we can do both at the same time to save her times under anesthesia but I need to talk to vet more. It is really going to depend on how everything comes out on her blood work and if she has more seizures. 

Beardiedawg, her blood work was taken this morning. The vet is looking for signs of infections, looking for diabetes, and doing a full thyroid panel. I don't think there is any actual blood panel for seizures. I have epilepsy and have never really heard of anything. He did say that if we can't find anything but she keeps having seizures we may need to see a neurologist for an MRI and spinal tap looking for a infection in her spinal fluid, brain or a tumor.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Remaru said:


> No, her gums are normal. Her temperature is normal and heart also sounds normal which is good. I'm hoping we get some answers from the blood work but I'm also sort of hoping we never see another seizure and it was just some fluke thing.


You didn't by any chance just put flea medicine on her? I've heard of this kind of reaction more than I would expect.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

The only blood test that I can think of that would help determining if it's a seizure is to get a prolactin level within 1/2 an hour of the event. But I can only speak for humans in this case. I don't know if it's also true for dogs. After a "real" seizure the prolactin level will go up, but it comes down again very quickly. Neurologists sometimes use this to determine whether the activity is a true seizure or a pseudoseizure. It pretty much has to be done on inpatients or patients in the ER because it has to be done so quickly.

I agree with seeing how differently the dogs hold their tails if they're not feeling well. When the acupuncture helps Toby's tail has a nice little curve up when it doesn't it just hangs straight down.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

mrsserena said:


> You didn't by any chance just put flea medicine on her? I've heard of this kind of reaction more than I would expect.


I use Seresto collars but hers is expired so it's been off for a couple of weeks. I've been waiting to get a new one for her and the cat (need to soon because we didn't have much winter and I'm expecting them to be bad this year). I may wait now, just to see what we find out. I don't want to put anything on her that might make her sick. 

Sandakat, I had never heard of that (or I have and I have forgotten it like so many other things thanks to my medication  it has been about 8 years since my diagnosis and I've forgotten a good bit in that time). I remember the blood work to rule out other causes and the MRI, EKG and EEG. I don't know if they do EEGs on dogs or not.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Remaru said:


> I use Seresto collars but hers is expired so it's been off for a couple of weeks. I've been waiting to get a new one for her and the cat (need to soon because we didn't have much winter and I'm expecting them to be bad this year). I may wait now, just to see what we find out. I don't want to put anything on her that might make her sick.
> 
> Sandakat, I had never heard of that (or I have and I have forgotten it like so many other things thanks to my medication  it has been about 8 years since my diagnosis and I've forgotten a good bit in that time). I remember the blood work to rule out other causes and the MRI, EKG and EEG. I don't know if they do EEGs on dogs or not.


Seresto collars are the worst! Check out reviews on Amazon... seizures are very common.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

mrsserena said:


> Seresto collars are the worst! Check out reviews on Amazon... seizures are very common.


Hers has been off for weeks. I guess that could be it but I doubt it. She had been wearing it for 8months.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Remaru said:


> Hers has been off for weeks. I guess that could be it but I doubt it. She had been wearing it for 8months.


Maybe not, but I almost hope it is, at least it's something that's easily fixed.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Welcome Remaru, sydneynicole and Mrsserena.

Remaru--how old is Blue? What breed? have a needle biopsy done on the lumps. Very easy and then you know how fast you need to take them off if at all. Hope had a football on her ribs which was cancer, but it was a slow moving, rarely spreading form and they took it off even though she had heart issues and she was fine and it never reoccurred. As for the seizures, if they are idiopathic that is not the worst thing. At least her brain and spine are ok and you can manage it with medication. You can also keep an emergency kit for rectal dosing in case of status. When do you expect the blood results?

Sydneynicole--I look forward to getting to know you and Tucker

Sandakat -- so sad to hear Toby is not doing well. So frustrating to know the layout of your home is a problem not easily fixed! When is the next acupuncture? Thanks for telling me what I needed to hear.

Beardiedawg -- no ill effects from lack of nebulizer?

Still having nightmares about Pippin. Sybbie has a stuffed up nose. And SA without Pippin. But I found a food she will eat!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

No side effects from lack of nebulizer that aren't easily fixed. Once I started again on Tuesday, it loosened stuff enough so that he is coughing much less and it doesn't sound as severe. Today at the dog park, he was full of piss and vinegar. He was running as fast as his arthritic back legs and stiff spine would allow. He always focuses in on unneutered male dogs and he was following one around today wanting to sort of play, sort of air hump and lots of barking at. 

Why is Sybbie stuffed up? Has it happened before? Do you treat her for it?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

That is good! He's feeling his oats.

I don't know what is up with Sybbie's nose. I only adopted her 3 months ago so I don't know if it is seasonal or something that she is suceptable to. It seems like a cold. I first noticed it Thursday night. She seems to be feeling fine otherwise. The drips are clear so I'll probably just wait to see if it clears up on its own. She did get a nasal bordatella vaccine on Sunday but if it was a reaction to that I would have expected it to start sooner.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Blue is 8, she is some sort of heinz 57 tiny dog mix. I would guess mostly chihuahua and small terrier. We fostered her mother and whole litter 8 years ago and my son chose her as the "keeper" when it was time to find everyone homes. She is about 5.5lbs (she has lost some weight but doesn't appear under sized, just was carrying some extra I guess). We had a needle aspiration on the first lump about 3 years ago, when it first popped up, and the vet said it was benign. It is one of those fatty tumors. He did say we should watch it and if it seemed to be growing abnormally we may want to reassess. So I think that is where we are. However with her having seizures now I want to address those first. We were supposed to hear about her blood work today but when we called for results the nurse said the doctor would want to talk to us himself. I'm not sure if that is bad news or not. I am guessing that means we won't hear anything until Monday. 

One of mine got a case of sniffles right after Bordatella. I couldn't decide if it was related. The vet gave me some allergy pills and it helped. Of course it could just as easily have been a case of sinus junk. I hope Sybbie is feeling better soon.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I had a Facebook memory pop up today. It's been a year since Gus had his first bout of pneumonia with the 106 fever. Today, we spent a good part of the afternoon play wrestling. I much prefer this.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Beardiedawg -- Gus has done well thanks to you! What a great way to mark the anniversary. Take that, pneumonia!

Remaru--it must be so hard waiting in suspense! Maybe the doctor wants to talk to you because there is something in the bloodwork, something easily fixed. Or maybe the doctor always has to give the report, good, bad or indifferent. That's the way my vet hospital works. I hope you're not tied up in knots though I know I would be.

Good to know that you had a similar experience with Bordatella. That made me feel better. And her sniffles seem to be going.

Fourdogs, Sandakat, Sibe, hanksimon, everyone, hope you and your babies are well tonight.


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

Looking after the 16 yr old family dog for the next 10 days or so. I just brought him home at like 7:30pm and he's already peed inside. Thankfully on a blanket on top of the carpet so very little got in the carpeting itself. I don't care as much if he pees on the laminate or tile (obviously would prefer he not) but, unlike my mom's house, I do have some carpeting on my main floor so I can't keep him off it completely. Also hoping that my pom pup, who still only holds it through the night every now and again, and my old man both wake up in the night at the same time to potty so I'm not getting up twice (gonna try to force it!).
His vision is starting to go more, he's getting a real white spot in his one eye rather than just the cloudy look. He ran into my coffee table. Poor boy.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Good for him for making it to 16! What breed? Good luck with the pee situation. Will he wake you or will he just go? Pippin had cloudy eyes for years but could still see unless it was dark. He developed a white spot his last week but it wasn't a cataract but a calcium deposit.


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

Pomom said:


> Good for him for making it to 16! What breed? Good luck with the pee situation. Will he wake you or will he just go? Pippin had cloudy eyes for years but could still see unless it was dark. He developed a white spot his last week but it wasn't a cataract but a calcium deposit.


He's a pom/shih tzu/ terrier cross of some kind (aka. a mutt). Sometimes he pees in his sleep, sometimes he'll wake you. I'm not sure what the white spot is, but he's nervous of the vet so I'd rather not take him in unless it looks like it's bugging him but he's showing no extra tearing, blinking, or squinting, eating and pooping the same as usual.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

MysticRealm, can you diaper him while he's at your house? It's not ideal, but it will keep your house clean.

Beardiedawg, I'm happy that Gus is doing well. I love those rare playing days.

Remaru, I've got my fingers crossed that your vet only wants to talk about Blue having normal labs and to discuss treatment options.

Toby's situation just seems to be going downhill so quickly. I noticed that he's now dragging his left hind leg sometimes. It was only the right. He's having a hard time hunching to poop. I also had to put the gait belt on him to help him with the stairs yesterday afternoon, although he did fine on the evening walk. When he goes from lying to standing he has to pull himself up with his front legs. He can't push with his back end. 

I don't think the acupuncture, even with the electrical stimulation, helped. I go back to the vet on Thursday. I'm going to ask her if she thinks laser treatments might work better. She does both.

I had asked her if the laser would work through all of his fur. Apparently it's set to penetrate to a certain depth, so the fur isn't an issue.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Sandakat I'm sorry to hear about Toby. I hope you can find something to give him some relief.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

gingerkid said:


> Sandakat I'm sorry to hear about Toby. I hope you can find something to give him some relief.


Thanks. He's doing a little better this morning. I'm seriously starting to wonder if he has Degenerative Myelopathy. Maybe I spend too much time on the internet, but what I'm seeing and the speed with which this is progressing makes me wonder if it's not just "an old dog". I went on the Collie Health Foundation site and, while it is rare, DM is seen in collies. I guess I could send out the blood for the genetic marker. It would help the CHF studies but wouldn't do much for Toby. At least, if that's what he has, it isn't painful.

The other thought is that he has some spinal cord compression, either from a disc problem or a tumor. There's one spot that seems to be consistently tender when they put in the acupuncture needles. I would be open to getting plain xrays if it could be done without sedation. I don't want to do anything like a CT or MRI that would require anesthesia since he does so poorly with it even though those are more accurate. Also, what would I do differently if I saw a tumor? Not much. I wouldn't subject a 12 year old dog to a big spine surgery, and being MDR1 mu/mu he can't take most of the chemo drugs. I WOULD treat him for pain, though, which I'm not doing now. The same goes for disc disease.

So much to think about. It's going to be a long chat with the vet Thursday.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sandakat - You spend too much time on the Internet ;-) I read about Degenerative Myelopathy in GSDs and was positive that Shep had something similar (in addition to his arthritis. ). So, I wrote one of the world expert researchers. He was very kind and very, very thorough (Yikes!). The gist of his extensive email was that DM in GSDs was his expertise, and he could say much about other breeds. According to him, DM can be found in most breeds, he just hasn't studied it. But, based on the number of years that Shep has been declining, the Expert said that Shep did not have the GSD version of DM, b/c it is noticeably progressive, and always fatal a few months after diagnosis. Been there, done that ;-)

I do think that Shep has some type of nerve issue, b/c when Shep does something that causes pain, he doesn't repeat that motion ... He still learns quickly. However, He will repeatedly make certain 'sharp' turns, and just fall over. He's more careful now, but sometimes he forgets, and just falls. It's more of a sit or a down collapsing into an awkward position, so it's not as violent as a complete fall (he has done this, tripping and falling on his nose, Ouch!).

I haven't tried to address the nerve issues, but his dose of gabapentin might help. I'm not sure. DM is similar to muscular distrophy in people. But, nerve issues can really come from so many different causes, possibly some form of spurs, spinal stenosis, pressure, or maybe an alignment/muscle issue.... i.e. "old dog".

I did laser with Shep, and it helped after 5 sets of treatments ... for about 6 mos. As my Vet said, Laser can be a miracle or it can be snake oil ... it depends on the dog. 
From my experience, the Vet may have a Cold Laser  or one that produces some heat. I believe that all of these were red lasers or in the infrared. These easily penetrate the fur and skin as some type of healing heat, that does not seem to be well-defined from a clinical standpoint. In our case, it worked like a 'massage,' moving the light all around the joint for a specific amount of time. Shep relaxed, and seemed to be in less pain, and more flexible during and immediately afterwards. After 3 treatments, the effects seemed to last a few days. After two weeks, the effects lasted a week. But, even with a total of 10 treatments, relief was no longer than two weeks between treatments. And there was no promise that two treatments a week would continue to benefit. So, I stopped, like I said, after about 6 mos. after the vet checkup. Your mileage WILL vary!


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## griffinflames (Sep 19, 2015)

Sandakat said:


> I'm seriously starting to wonder if he has Degenerative Myelopathy.


Sorry to butt in on the conversation, but I just wanted to chime in with my 2 cents. I highly doubt there's going to be strong breed to breed differences as the affected genes are not breed specific. You just need 1 or more bad copies of the SOD1 gene. It's the same gene that's associated with human ALS, and between the canine DM and human ALS, there are a lot of striking similarities. I suspect the similarities are going to be even stronger between canines only.

Based on my experience with DM, the progression happens over a matter of months. It took about 12-13 months for my shepherd (she also tested positive with 2 bad copies of the gene) to go from first diagnosis to being wheelchair bound. Initial symptom that brought me to the vet was when my dog seemed to fall a lot when pivoting during fetch, but otherwise perfectly fine and athletic. With DM being an ascending de-myelinating disorder, loss of proprioception leading to knuckling of the hind paws is one of the first diagnostic symptoms that my vet used to make the diagnosis, along with changes in the knee jerk reflexes. As the disease progresses, it will keep relentlessly move up the spinal cord with complete loss of hind legs, loss of bowel control, up the front legs, and finally the respiratory muscles.

Based on what I'm reading of Toby's situation here, it really doesn't sound like he has it. Even if you are still concerned, I really don't think the genetic testing will help much. I think it would just be best to keep focusing on his comfort and give him help with the mobility as he needs it to help maintain his quality of life. That and lots and lots of love.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Old oldness makes them old . 

I was just reading how Alzheimers progresses in humans. At the end, they forget how to swallow, forget how to move their body, forget how to breathe even. Their brain just stops doing all those things you take for granted every day. So I think that's what happened to my Toby. The dementia just progressed to where he couldn't remember how to eat or walk. Because his body was doing OK; there's no other reason he should have been unable to walk or eat. Ugh. Don't get old. It sucks.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I pretty much agree with you guys. It's probably not DM. Mostly it's the rapidity of the progression that's making me think it's a possibility. 6 months ago he had no symptoms. Either way, I'm going to do the same thing: make him as comfortable as I can and keep him as mobile as I can and love him more than anything. Oldness definitely makes them old. I like that.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sandakat, I agree with you about the what would you do different part. Treating the symptoms is the way to go. When I still had Gemma, I didn't do any tests to confirm if she had nasal cancer. She had the bloody noses. I realized that I wouldn't do anything different even with a diagnosis.


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## griffinflames (Sep 19, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Ugh. Don't get old. It sucks.


Yes, that is the secret to life, isn't it?  Aging sucks.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Some evenings, Snowball randomly wakes up from his nap, jumps off the couch, and looks very confused. Sometimes he just stares at me sadly, sometimes he wanders around for a few minutes like he doesn't know where he's going. It doesn't happen often, thankfully, but it makes me worry.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sandakat--re laser I did twice weekly treatments for Pippin when the disc was first diagnosed and it seemed to help but I wasn't sure. It's definitely worth a try. You can also rent a machine and do it yourself. It's pretty foolproof as most machines have an automatic shut off so you don't focus it too long in one spot. This would allow you to do it more frequently.

My vet does X-ray s without sedation. But like you said would it change what you're doing? You might add an anti inflammatory or pain med but I know the mu/mu is an issue with drugs. How does he react to homeopathy?

Gingerkid--that's scary. Maybe he is just in a dream fog? Hope it's not some kind of dementia. Is the room dimly lit when he does it? Eyesight decline?


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Gingerkid, when I read that I thought, "Sounds like me in the morning before coffee". All kidding aside, I have no idea but that is concerning.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Gingerkid, That is concerning. Perhaps a trip to the vet to have his eyes checked and discuss what else might be going on? I hate to bring up canine cognitive disfunction but the good news is that there is a medication now that is supposed to work very well at slowing the progression. 

Sandakat, that is so hard. If knowing would give him a better quality of life then that would be worth it, but it probably isn't worth putting him through testing just to know. I hope you can find a treatment that gives him relief.

We did get to talk to the vet finally. Blue's blood work came back normal. Her red blood cells are a little low but she is not anemic. The vet would like us to wait and watch her. If she doesn't have any more seizures we will just assume this was some fluke. He said if she has another to call, even if it is the middle of the night. He wants us to switch her to a senior food with anti-oxidants and add fish oil so I'm going to go looking for a high quality senior food I guess.


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## gypsiqueen (Mar 21, 2016)

I'm new to the forum, and thank you to pomom for pointing me in the direction of this thread! It's comforting to find people and pups that are in the same life stage as me and my furkids.

My oldest furchild is Chico. He's a Chihuahua/Shih Tzu born at the end of June 2001. He can't see in the dark anymore. He's also losing his hearing. He tore his ACL in January 2015. The doc gave him Rimadyl without doing blood work or even informing me of the risks. She also pushed surgery. I didn't like that, so I got a second opinion. The second vet concurred with the first vet. She did blood work, and there was some kind of infection so she put him on antibiotics. She said he should lose weight and gave him tramadol at my request. He did very, very well on it. I opted out of surgery because I don't know how well he'd do considering that he has luxating patellas in both his back legs. They never bothered him before, but they get worse as he gets older. He lost some weight, and has been full weight bearing since March 2015. We have to lift him up and down the stairs, the sofa, and the bed. We have a little set of stairs next to the bed that he can go down, but not up. Other than that he's doing well. 

My youngest furchild is Zeus, an American Eskimo who was born on June 19, 2003. He was born at the shelter I worked at. I took him and his two sisters and mother home that day with me as fosters. At 8 weeks old he was adopted out to a couple who ended up being horrible people (I didn't do the adoption). Two weeks later the shelter manager found out and got them to bring him back. He was filthy, skinny, and he ran from me every time I tried to pet him. I took him home that day and I told him he was safe and that I would never let him go. It still took months for him to get over being hand shy. He developed anxiety. It pisses me off so much just to think of those awful people. He's been an incredibly healthy dog until about 2 weeks ago, although I'm not sure if we missed the early signs of illness. Anyway, he started acting funny: not eating, standing and walking with a humped back, hanging his head, sleeping a lot, vomiting. We got him to the vet and when she ran blood tests it turns out that his liver enzymes are elevated, and the biliary system and liver showed inflammation. Later she told me that she didn't think he was going to make it. She put him on antibiotics and Denamarin and gave him fluids. He went back several times for fluids. He would be good for a day or so, then he'd crash. On Saturday they gave him a shot for nausea, and holy cow he was immediately a different dog. He even barked at the office cat. They gave me meds to give him every day. He has been doing extremely well. He's following my husband around begging for food, and is back to his usual behaviors. He hasn't vomited, and his appetite is great. I know I can't get ahead of myself since he's an old dog, and I'm prepared for the ups and downs. But I'm optimistic. 

This is long. I can go on and on about my furkids.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Found this on a senior sheltie site and thought everyone would find it interesting. She is very into homeopathic stuff.

Gold bead implants are a non-traditional treatment for severe pain and joint instability. Implants are a type of permanent acupuncture treatment. I learned how to do the implant procedure several years ago at an acupuncture workshop taught by a veterinarian from Norway. The implant procedure is done on an outpatient basis and can provide safe, long-term pain relief. First I inject a local anesthetic agent similar to Novocain, which your dentist uses to numb your mouth for dental work. After a few minutes gold beads are inserted through a large bore hypodermic needle into acupuncture points near the toes. The points used depend on the type of problem we are treating and the meridians that pass through the affected area. We use the Source point on the Liver meridian to treat hip dysplasia. A light pressure bandage is applied and the procedure is over. It is very safe, non-invasive, quick, and costs a fraction of the cost of surgery. There is no post-operative recovery period required after a gold bead implant. The dogs walk out of our office and back to their lives. Once implants are in place, routine treatments we do like acupuncture are more effective and last longer. Often drugs can be given at reduced dosages or completely discontinued. If a surgical procedure needs to be done later, it still can be done. A gold bead implant is a good first treatment option to manage a difficult case.
I’ve seen many amazing things in practice, but few surpass the remarkable results in some of the hip dysplastic dogs following a gold bead implant. Numerous cases have gone on to live normal lives and have not suffered severe debilitation, which is the expected outcome for dogs with hip dysplasia. I suggested we try the implants in an attempt to give Rylee some relief. His people were very motivated to help him and they scheduled the procedure for the very next week. Individual response to treatment varies. Sometimes the effect is immediate and sometimes it is delayed by days or weeks. It took about a week for the owners to see improvement begin for Rylee. He quit crawling across the floor like GI Joe, and started getting up to move around. He began walking more and playing. His appetite improved, along with his endurance and desire to exercise. Rylee came back for regular acupuncture treatments at two week intervals to make sure he continued to improve. He started eating more and gained weight. His prescription drug dosage is at half the pre-implant dosage and he continues to improve. He will have a better life because of a little scrap of gold placed between his toes. Who would have dreamed…..
Not The End
Additional note: Gold bead implants can be effective for many severe, otherwise degenerative conditions, such as wobbler’s disease, degenerative myelopathy, severe spondylosis or "back arthritis", hip dysplasia, elbow or knee arthritis, allergies and epilepsy. In my opinion, it is reasonable to have the gold implant procedure done as a prophylactic measure in large breed dogs prone to hip dysplasia.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Welcome, Gypsi. You are in the right place. I know it's a lot of reading but if you have time, I'd read this thread from the beginning. Although we'll try to give some suggestions on your situation, there's lots of helpful advice on here.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Remaru--that sounds like you can be cautiously optimistic. Hopefully you never see another seizure. Sounds like you have a good and caring vet too. I'm not sure that a blood test is the definitive test for something like a seizure, but at least you know that there's nothing there to be concerned about. Will you retest the lumps now that the seizure question has been looked after?

Gypsiqueen--welcome! I'm glad you found us! Looks like you have a whole family of seniors. Reading Zeus's story I almost cried. Any idea why he was nauseous? Is he on any liver support? Pippin was on Zentonil, Ursodiol and Milk Thistle for liver function and I suspect they gave him more time.

Beardiedawg -- I had heard of the gold bead implants being used for seizure disorders, but not for pain. For seizures, they put the beads in the ear leather. Is this something you're considering?

I miss Pippin. I wish they would call about his ashes. I'm having the fear that they have been misplaced.

Sybbie's stuffed up nose seems better. We did a training session in the park.

I miss having a bigger pack, but I don't want to have two dogs the same age again and Sybbie's only 3. And there is a lot for us to enjoy just the two of us: with one small dog you can just tuck them under your arm and get away with going in stores. We have training goals and have made some new friends at the park. Feeding and walking feels like it takes no time with one dog. Still I remember how great it felt to add Sybbie after Pippin and I had been alone for 8 months. That was different though. Pippin was already feeble and suddenly there was life in the house. I think I'll wait a couple years but don't hold me to that!


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Injectable gold is an old treatment that used to be used for rheumatoid arthritis in people. It's fallen out of fashion in the last 20 years or so, especially with a lot of the safer NSAIDS and newer biological drugs. I don't know how that translates for animals, though.

Gypsiqueen, welcome. I'm glad Zeus is doing better. 

Remaru, I'm glad the talk with the vet was just to discuss normal labs and to talk about seizures in general rather that about some specific bad thing. Got my fingers crossed that it was a one time seizure.

Pomom, Yay for Sybbie's drying nose and getting outside for some training.

Toby is having a better day today. 2 days ago I had to put the gait belt on him to get him up and down the stairs. Today he was good with the stairs and I even got him into the car to go walk on one of the flat, paved trails. He even felt good enough to bounce up and down *gently* when we ran into a dog he knew. I don't know if it was the weather the other day that bothered him or what, but he had me scared. I'm still going to have a long chat with the vet tomorrow about other options to keep him comfortable and mobile.


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## gypsiqueen (Mar 21, 2016)

Pomom, he's on Denamarin. At least that's what I think it's called. He was nauseous because of his liver. Not sure what the mechanism is. He's still eating. 

And of course once I say he's doing so well, he hurt his leg somehow today. He was in the house, not running around. I think he tore something. Hubs said he was fine, then he wasn't. I got the "call me" text that makes me so nervous. We gave him tramadol and aspirin. He's scheduled to go to the vet tomorrow at 8am. I don't know what the vet is going to give him for pain since the NSAIDs are hard on the liver. The vets are good, they'll make sure he's taken care of. Poor guy. He can't get comfortable. He's pacing, but he's dragging his leg. I got a towel and put it under his stomach so he could walk and go outside. When he stood up and I lifted his back legs he looked at me like I'd sprouted another head. It was actually pretty funny. Chico tore his ACL and he was pretty miserable when it happened, but he didn't act like he was in pain the way that Zeus is acting. I just hate to see him in pain. 

In addition to my senior dogs, I also have a senior Sphynx cat who has asthma. She's a month older than Chico. We are quite the household.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> I feel like I am not taking proper care of Sybbie because I am not worried about her every second. I don't spend as much time on her as I did Pippin. It feels like I am doing something wrong. Nightmares continue. Her routine blood test came back perfect. I feel nuts.


Pomom! Hang in there. I think this is a natural part of grieving. When Darby passed last month, I focused all my caregiver energy onto Cookie, it was almost like I was looking for something to be wrong because I was so used to round the clock care with Darby. When you come down from the shock of having that round the clock care from Pippin, and the worry of 'when will he crash" and then thinking about letting him go, it seems to all pile up on the remaining dog(s). 
HUGS!!! It's a month out now for me, and the grief has left, and I can think about her happy days. And now I can see how bad of shape she was in. She's at peace. Take as much time as YOU need and don't feel bad about talking about it here, either <3 

Dogs have all been good. Yesteray, I left the house to take DD to see some horses (minis!). I gave them their usual CET chews, which I have never had an issue with. Cookie gets 1/2 a petite size one. Yesterday I chose to give her a whole one. Came home to her coughing- like my throat hurts type cough. She slept fine, but peed all over her bed. She was drinking water to soothe her throat I Guess. 

Today, still coughing some. I gave her metacam to see if that will help, otherwise, off to the vet? (for a sore throat?) She can eat and drink fine, so I don't think blockage, just seems like it must've scratched up her throat. She can be such a pig and bolt down edible items too quickly. 

HOw's Toby and Shep and Gus? 

Sorry I didn't check in for a while, been a busy week!


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## gypsiqueen (Mar 21, 2016)

Took Zeus to the vet today. The news is bad. His leg is paralyzed, and it's cold. There's no feeling in either hind foot, and the other foot is also cold. So there's no blood circulation to that area. She said that if it doesn't get better his leg will degrade until it has to be amputated. Then she said that the prognosis is bad no matter what is wrong with him because it's so severe. She put him on steroids and some stuff for his stomach. She wants to do an xray, so I scheduled it for Saturday. I don't know if I want to do it though. No matter xray shows, it's not going to get better without expensive treatment. She said the best thing that we can do is a $5,000 surgery. He's 12 though, and even if we had the money I don't want to put him through it. So we're going to give the steroids a shot. The same thing happened to Chico, and he recovered very quickly. But he wasn't as bad as Zeus is. I guess we'll see.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Pomom, I'm glad Sybbie is feeling better. Grief is hard, give yourself some time. 

Gypsiqueen, I'm sorry to hear about the bad news. I hope the steroids help Zeus. 

Sandakat, how is Toby today. 

Blue is still doing great. No signs of seizures, or even that anything happened. Since her blood work was good I do think we will schedule a dental and we will discuss having those lumps removed or at least tested again. We will see what the vet thinks.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Earl! That is great. Mine all have middle names that are food related. Except Bobb, because he's already Amaze-Bobb. The rest also have mountain names. But he's Amaze-Bobb!

I don't post in here much but I'm still following along the adventures and issues of the seniors.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Toby went to the vet this evening. She did both the acupuncture and a laser treatment on him. She could see how much worse he was limping today than when she saw him 2 weeks ago. (There was a different vet there last week.) We both decided that xrays wouldn't change anything so we're going to pass on those. We're also going to start him on a low dose of Gabapentin. With his medication sensitivities starting low and slowly building up seems the best plan.

One thing I really like about her is that even though she was pretty sure that Gabapentin is safe for him she still went to the Washington State Vet School website and double checked that it would be OK.

The disheartening thing is that after 1 1/2 hours of various treatments he still barely made it up the stairs to get back into the house. He was sort of dragging himself with his front legs and hopping weakly with his back. I almost went back down to help him but he managed to make it up the stairs. I'm hoping tonight's treatments will start to kick in tomorrow. The gabapentin will take a few days if it's going to work.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I like Gabapentin, b/c it seems to help both arthritis and nerve issues. I think with 'higher' doses, it may increase the tendency to sleep (but not cause drowsiness), and it may cause some minor poop issues initially. Shep is about 70 lbs and started with 200mg twice a day, and I've increased it to three times a day. It seems to take about 20 -30 min. to kick in, so I usually give it to him just before our 30 min. walk ... Gabapentin doesn't seem to help creaking joints to loosen up ... and by the time we get home, Shep is loosened up ... and ready to go back to sleep with less pain/discomfort. It seems to work much better when I keep the dosage on a consistent time schedule, also.

Anyway, we had an event this evening. I think I gave him too much to eat during the day, and at night he started walking around, trying to vomit, whining a little, so I took him to the e-Vet. She took X-rays and said they were inconclusive, b/c Shep had gastric distension (a full belly, food not gas) but no volvulus, although it could flip. "Why do you think it's going to flip." ... "Clinically, it's possible that it could flip." "I understand, so he could die." ...... So the Vet wanted to put him on fluids, give him an anti-nausea (which I agreed to); put him on anti-diarrhea (which I didn't see the need at that time for small time frame of diarrhea), and she wanted to keep him for 24 - 48 hours (NO! ... Although I was civil about it, b/c now I felt she was pushing defensive medicine, based on snapshot possibilities, not even a recent history.) So she made me sign a release against orders, and went back to give Shep the anti-nausea (which was significantly painful, causing him to whine?), and subcutaneous fluids. The Vet was significantly worried about Shep and so frustrated that she spoke quickly and didn't want to listen to my history of his overeating. She did send a Vet tech back to talk with me (who seemed very well trained in customer service). I gather that the Vet tech explained the history to the Vet, b/c 5 min. later, the Vet tech returned, gave me release instructions (Don't give Shep Peanut Butter! ??? and don't feed him for 12 hours; call if there are problems).

No one bothered to look at his discomfort due to arthritis, just one diagnostic path towards bloat, and when that was negative, stay on that path. An hour later, Shep is feeling better, and seems to be sleeping peacefully (at least until 4am ;-) ) And, I've learned my lesson to feed smaller meals, and walk him again at night ... even in the rain, before things get worse. Walking helps his digestion...


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

After our visit to the e-Vet, Shep seemed mostly OK and I walked him this morning. Then, he slept soundly the rest of the day, and I walked him again at 4pm and fed him a small meal for the first time. I'll offer him another small meal tomorrow morning. But, I think he's OK, mostly had a 'stomach ache" from over-eating, and wasn't able to vomit, which is the normal Lab response.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I'm glad Shep is doing better. Thanks for the info on the gabapentin.

Toby had a stellar day after getting the acupuncture plus the laser. We went on a short trail walk since the snow has a hard enough crust now to walk on. We ran into a friend with a younger sheltie and Toby was able to play a little bit. He was able to hold the "pooping position" without walking or losing his balance. It was wonderful. But it only lasted for a day. He was stiff again yesterday and didn't want to walk very far, but he is a bit better than before the treatment.

We're taking the gabapentin up very slowly given his history for problems with medications. He's been on one pill at night for 3 days. Today I increase it to one 100mg pill twice a day. I think it's helping him sleep better, but it's still early in the course to really see a difference.

We drove down to Sacramento yesterday (100 miles away) to get the RV from storage for the summer season. He rode down in my car but home in the RV. We wanted to see how he'd do on trips. He settled on a blanket in the back and seemed comfortable. He was also able to get up and down the 3 steps into the rig. So it looks like we'll be able to travel with him as planned.

I hope our other seniors are having a good weekend.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> Pomom! Hang in there. I think this is a natural part of grieving. When Darby passed last month, I focused all my caregiver energy onto Cookie, it was almost like I was looking for something to be wrong because I was so used to round the clock care with Darby. When you come down from the shock of having that round the clock care from Pippin, and the worry of 'when will he crash" and then thinking about letting him go, it seems to all pile up on the remaining dog(s).
> HUGS!!! It's a month out now for me, and the grief has left, and I can think about her happy days. And now I can see how bad of shape she was in. She's at peace. Take as much time as YOU need and don't feel bad about talking about it here, either <3
> 
> Dogs have all been good. Yesteray, I left the house to take DD to see some horses (minis!). I gave them their usual CET chews, which I have never had an issue with. Cookie gets 1/2 a petite size one. Yesterday I chose to give her a whole one. Came home to her coughing- like my throat hurts type cough. She slept fine, but peed all over her bed. She was drinking water to soothe her throat I Guess.
> ...


Thanks fourdogs. I've relaxed a bit now. It's been two weeks. Sybbie eats at random times...very different from Pip's rigid medication schedule. We don't have to pee every two hours. It's so easy!

Cookie, cookie, cookie. What are we gonna do with you?!? Hope she'll be alright. 
Did you end up going to the vet?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

gypsiqueen said:


> Took Zeus to the vet today. The news is bad. His leg is paralyzed, and it's cold. There's no feeling in either hind foot, and the other foot is also cold. So there's no blood circulation to that area. She said that if it doesn't get better his leg will degrade until it has to be amputated. Then she said that the prognosis is bad no matter what is wrong with him because it's so severe. She put him on steroids and some stuff for his stomach. She wants to do an xray, so I scheduled it for Saturday. I don't know if I want to do it though. No matter xray shows, it's not going to get better without expensive treatment. She said the best thing that we can do is a $5,000 surgery. He's 12 though, and even if we had the money I don't want to put him through it. So we're going to give the steroids a shot. The same thing happened to Chico, and he recovered very quickly. But he wasn't as bad as Zeus is. I guess we'll see.


I was told the same thing with Pippin. I did X-rays and it turned out to be a compressed disc in his back. The steroids fixed him up in a matter of days. Unfortunately they are really hard on the liver. I'm surprised your vet went that route with Zeus's liver problems but maybe she thought there was no other option. They are much stronger than Metacam for inflammation. Still, don't despair. Pippin took steroids for two years. How's he doing today?


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> After our visit to the e-Vet, Shep seemed mostly OK and I walked him this morning. Then, he slept soundly the rest of the day, and I walked him again at 4pm and fed him a small meal for the first time. I'll offer him another small meal tomorrow morning. But, I think he's OK, mostly had a 'stomach ache" from over-eating, and wasn't able to vomit, which is the normal Lab response.


 Oh silly labs. I'm glad he's feeling better!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sandakat said:


> I'm glad Shep is doing better. Thanks for the info on the gabapentin.
> 
> Toby had a stellar day after getting the acupuncture plus the laser. We went on a short trail walk since the snow has a hard enough crust now to walk on. We ran into a friend with a younger sheltie and Toby was able to play a little bit. He was able to hold the "pooping position" without walking or losing his balance. It was wonderful. But it only lasted for a day. He was stiff again yesterday and didn't want to walk very far, but he is a bit better than before the treatment.
> 
> ...


This all sounds very positive! Yay Toby!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Sorry for the multiple quote msgs. I thought it would make it easier for me to catch up since I am so behind! Wasn't a good idea.

Sybbie and I went to our playgroup today and it was a blizzard. I felt obligated to go cuz the host had an emergency and I'm the backup. No one showed up of our group but there were some big uncontrolled dogs in the park and one of them chased Sybbie and tried to pin her down with his paw. She squealed. I was freaked out. The owner says "he's just fascinated with her!" Like it was all a good game. Really?!?


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@Sandakat - Sounds like a good response from laser and acupuncture. I don't know about combined effects, but individually, it can take about 3 times for more extended benefits, and after continued treatment, the time between addition treatments will increase. Results are quite variable by individual. The Vet or the tech may suggest when the treatments are no longer providing improvement.

Thanks Pomom - This 'tummy ache' is now a forgotten issue, but subjecting him to the e-Vet may have helped, b/c it tired Shep out (me too), and he slept well for all day afterwards ... And, today, he seemed to be better rested and in less pain. I like to encourage him to eat more, to fill him out some, but he seems better when he's skin and bone. He has a thick coat, so he doesn't look different, but with minimal exercise he's lost significant muscle (age-related, also), which is noticeable when you pet him ... but doesn't seem to bother him .... He's not starving, just feels that way with no muscle and minimal fat.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Pomom said:


> Thanks fourdogs. I've relaxed a bit now. It's been two weeks. Sybbie eats at random times...very different from Pip's rigid medication schedule. We don't have to pee every two hours. It's so easy!
> 
> Cookie, cookie, cookie. What are we gonna do with you?!? Hope she'll be alright.
> Did you end up going to the vet?


Glad you are feeling better about Sybbie  

Cookie was fine by the next day. I ended up giving her some Metacam and it definitely helped with the coughing/drinking. Back to normal the next day. 

She is a little piglet. She eats anything with a flavor as fast as she possibly can, and can very easily snap at our PWD, who is many times her size and then steal her food!

All dogs are well here. Phew.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm keeping an eye on Gus. He's throwing up little piles of undigested food. He did it the other night and there was so phlegm in it so I thought it came up from a coughing bout. Last night there were three piles and he just gave us another one. His gums are a little paler than I would like but he is breathing okay so not sure why they're not getting the blood and oxygen. Other than that, he seems to be acting okay. I'm thinking I'll give him another day before I run him off to the vet.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Poor Gus


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@beardiedawg - When you talk to the Vet, I think they try to distinguish between regurgitation [ food in, food back out fairly quickly] and vomiting [ food in, 10 min. or more calm, then food back out]... Usually a dog can feel and briefly hold vomit, but regurgitation happens w/o control. And, your Vet may give you different diagnoses based on these two possibilities.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I hope Gus is OK. Keep us posted, please.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Thanks Hanksimon. It's definitely vomiting based on your description. I was out this afternoon and my husband found four different piles. I had some Cerenia so I gave him a pill about an hour ago. His gums are back up to pink so that makes me feel better. Hopefully his stomach will settle and this will be the end of it otherwise tomorrow we'll go visit the vet.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Hope Gus is feeling better!


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## gypsiqueen (Mar 21, 2016)

pomom - Sorry I didn't respond. I haven't been on here in a few days. The vet did say that it was compressed, or herniated, or a mass on his spine. She put him on steroids, and within a few days he was back at his activity level. Last night he came inside like he normally does, and about 10 minutes later he was crying, and trying to walk. But neither of his hind legs were working at all. He is completely paralyzed. They were cold with no feeling. We gave him his dose of steroids, along with an aspirin (later on) and tramadol, but none of it worked. He was still distressed and in pain. He wouldn't stop moving until about 2:30 when he fell asleep in the closet. Hubs and I decided enough was enough for him. We weren't going to put him through more pain just because we can't let go. I was up all night. He is now in his crate relaxing, but we have the vet appointment at 11. We gave him bacon and sausage, and he didn't want any of it, which is a big sign that he's not doing well. I've cried so much that my eyes almost swelled shut. 

I want to say that I do read everyone's stories, I'm just not good at responding. It's nice to know that I'm not on this boat alone.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

All of us have different stories, which unfortunately turn out the same way. Gypsiqueen, I'm sorry to hear about this, and hope that the final journey went smoothly.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Gypsiqueen, I'm so sorry for you. It sounds like you made the right decision even though it's the hardest one. Hugs to you.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Gypsiqueen, I'm so sorry to hear this. I'll be thinking about you.

Gus is doing better. I gave him the Cerenia Tuesday night and Wednesday morning. That seemed to break the cycle of throwing up. I'm so bad at withholding food to let their stomach settle. The minute they start looking at me, I cave in and feed them which I know isn't the right thing to do.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Oh Gypsiqueen! So sorry. How are you doing?

Glad Gus is doing better. That was scary.

Sorry I've been away, things have been busy. Haven't been doing any dog things since Sunday dog park in a blizzard


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## gypsiqueen (Mar 21, 2016)

He went peacefully, I'm so glad about that. My heart is broken into a million pieces. We did the private cremation with a pawprint. Does anyone know where I can get an urn?

Chico has been whining and moping all day. He whines to go outside, but it's only to try to find Zeus. Usually he sleeps in Zeus' crate, but he won't go in it at all. He goes to the opening, and sniffs the blanket before walking away. Like Zeus is still laying in it. 

I'll still be on this thread. Chico is edging up on 15, so I'll be on here for him.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

When Duke passed the vet put us in contact with the pet cemetery to order the urn. All of our pet urns have come from the same place though (when my childhood sheltie passed several years ago, and when my parents' chihuahua passed). 

http://www.toothacres.com/index.php/burial-services/products/urns/ I think they can be ordered from here, but you might contact the vet or pet cemetery to see if they have a preferred catalog. Kecha's urn has lotuses on it, Duke's is a box but has his picture on top (my son chose it as Duke was his dog).


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Two useless anecdotes to smile:

Shep doesn't really wag his tail any more - Maybe he's too uncomfortable, maybe it's painful. Yesterday, while he was sleeping, he started wagging his tail against the the floor, a gentle swish with a solid Lab thump. He does this about once a week or so ... I think he does it in his sleep, when he wanted to do it while awake.

I don't give him meat. I'm not vegetarian, but I know how intense dogs can get over meat. Anyway, I bought a roast chicken from Costco (great deal!), and as I was throwing away the carcass, I noticed a few 'crumbs' which I gave to Shep. Dog Heaven. Ten years of pain disappeared, along with 15 years of training not to beg ;-) After I made it clear that there was no more, he settled down. So for supper, I gave him a full teaspoon of crumbs in his kibble. He snuffled through the kibble to snarf all the chicken ... and left the kibble! Then, he went to sleep ... and gassed up half the house! No more chicken for him.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Ohhhh, dog gas... it can strip paint from walls... it can open the most blocked sinuses... yuck

We took Toby with us on a 4 day RV trip. We made sure to pad part of the floor with an extra comforter for him to lie on. It was an 8 hour ride in each direction. We stopped about every 2 hours to walk him (and ourselves). 

The poor guy can barely climb up the 3 steps into the rig. Once he's in he gets comfortable, and he can get out easily, but getting in is a chore. He also seems to really be getting confused at night. He spent a good part of 2 of the nights pacing. He finally did better last night. I don't think we're going to be able to bring him on any more trips, which really sucks.

Also, his 3rd acupuncture plus laser treatment is tomorrow. If I don't see any signs of it helping him (aside from that one wonderful day) I'm not going to do it any more. I just can't justify it.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm sorry to hear that Toby is not doing well. I hope that the Laser and Acupuncture will help him. 

Blue seems to be doing very well. I don't know if it is the new food or what but she has a new spring to her step lately. She was attempting to chase squirrels on her walk this afternoon. Blue does not chase squirrels, she is afraid of most other animals (and squirrels are almost as big as she is LOL). She is just getting really feisty now.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Gemma got Canine Cognitive Dysfunction. When she started to show signs, I started her on a homeopathic powder called Cholodin. I ordered it from Amazon and it got really good reviews for helping with the dementia. She then had a bad reaction to acepromazine and when she recovered, her dementia was worse. I then started her on Anipryl and that worked. I found the CCD much worse than all the physical issues put together. I was afraid I would miss her telling me that it was time for her to go. I know Toby has issues with medication but looking at it from an outside point of view, if he really has CCD, I would risk the side effects. I'd rather go through a shortened lifespan than go through the CCD again.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

It's so hard to tell if it's cognitive dysfunction or sensory changes. He's definitely almost deaf and may be having vision problems. I'm so afraid to give him meds.

We went back to the vet today for his acupuncture. The vet and I had a very good talk about whether to continue this and whether to continue his gabapentin. The plan is to hold off on any more acupuncture and see how he does. If he doesn't worsen we'll skip having any more treatments. If he worsens, we'll go back to it. We're also going to taper the gabapentin.

In the meantime, I just ordered a Help 'Em Up harness for him. We HAVE to be able to get him up and down the stairs. The cheap gait belt that I have now isn't stable enough for us to safely get him up the stairs if he falls.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear that pain treatments didn't work. Why taper the gabapentin? Right now, that is the only med that Shep is on. It's not the best for arthritis, but it seems to work fine for nerve pain, with minimal side effects. For a 70lb dog, I give Shep 200mg every 8 hours. It seems to help him sleep without making him drowsy , so I try to give it to him before we walk, and when we get home, he's ready for a nap.

I have to carry Shep up & down steps, as well as in and out of the car. I also have to lift him to a standing position most of the time. ... My back has gotten much stronger.

I am fairly positive that Shep doesn't have CCD, but he does have diminished vision and hearing. I don't think he has cataracts. As far as hearing, he acts like he has selective hearing, but he no longer hears whispers, and he does respond to loud noises and shouts. I hate to shout to him, but it doesn't bother him, b/c I never yelled, so it doesn't bother him.

As far as vision, Shep has lost peripheral vision and will startle when people walk up to him from the side. He's not scared, he's just surprised to see people appear. It's the same when people pet him; he can't see their hand, until it's right on top of him, so he'll 'cringe' or duck, not out of fear, but out of surprise. I don't think that he can recognize me anymore, if I'm standing still, but he can still pick me out of a small crowd if we are all moving. I've noticed that the 'motion sensors' seem to continue 'functioning' after normal vision has diminished. 

[Shep still runs just fine, in his dreams ;-) ]

I hope our experience will help you create some tests to get through Toby's sensory fog.

When I let him sniff treats, he'll try to focus, but he still can't see the treat, and if I toss it after saying catch, Shep will anticipate the trajectory by watching my hand, but can't see or catch things (although he tries), unless tossed into his mouth.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Hi all,
Sorry Ive been away. I just caught up with all the dogs in the thread. Is Toby having problems with the Gabapentin?

I finally had a good cry over Pippin last night. It felt like I was scared of what the sadness would do to me earlier so I didn't let myself feel it. It was a healing cry. I'm going to pick up his ashes tomorrow.

Gypsiqueen, my vet supplies the urn. I'm surprised yours and Remaru's don't. I ordered the same one as I got for Hope which is a cedar box with the name engraved. It's really beautiful.

Sybbie blew her coat and it really scared me for a bit. I thought: Alopecia! But it seems like it was all undercoat. She is half the size she was! I emailed her breeder cuz my other two never did this in the spring. She said it was not uncommon to get a whole bag in a brushing. So that made me feel better.

Hang in there old guys! Will you be putting off traveling all together if Toby can't do it?


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I was gone for a few days, too. 

Pomom, I'm glad you finally were able to let yourself cry. Hugs to you.

Toby seems to be doing better with a lower dose of gabapentin. His balance on the stairs seems better, although he still has to be bribed to go up or down. I think we'll continue to taper the med and see if we can stop it. We got a Help Em Up harness. It's going to be a learning curve but we hope it helps him with the stairs. 

We probably won't take long RV trips with him, but we'll still do the short ones where we spend a few days in one place.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Summer is going for a rhinoscopy to see definitively if she has cancer. :/. She's been having a really rough time lately. She's supposed to make it to 16...


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> Summer is going for a rhinoscopy to see definitively if she has cancer. :/. She's been having a really rough time lately. She's supposed to make it to 16...


Thinking good thoughts for you and Summer!


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Gypsimom, So sorry  hugs to you! 

Well.... you'll never guess why I'm back. Cookie has seemed a bit "off" to me since Darby died six weeks ago. But Then, Dh said he supposed I was imagining it because I Was so used to watching Darby being sick. 

WELL.. She seemed to be breathing funny last week, maybe a little more rapidly than usual. And maybe she was holding her head up funny AND trying to sleep. And then yesterday, the honking coughs started. Honk honk honk HUAH!

Vet visit today, reveals a grade 4 murmur that wasn't there back in November! Xray shows an enlarged heart and fluid in the lungs. 

She's SO tiny that the vet didn't have any Lasix in a small enough dose. She found a human liquid to put her on, and I went to my pharmacy to fill it, and they don't have it in stock. They'll get it tomorrow so she can start on it tomorrow. One week recheck to see if the fluid is any better in her lungs. 

Geez Louise. I can't even believe this.

Good healthy thoughts for Summer as well!


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Oh Fourdogs! What bad news! I hope the Lasix helps. You really didn't get a long enough break!

Laurelin when is the test? How fast will you get the results?

Sandakat glad Toby is managing. What is his reaction to the harness?

Sybbie continues to lose hair and I'm worried again. At least if she has Alopecia she can still be happy and healthy. But she's so beautiful! :/ her bloodwork was perfect.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I was hoping this thread was lagging because everyone is doing well.

Thanks for asking, Toby is doing about the same. He tolerates the harness very well. We don't have to help him every time, just going upstairs mostly at night when he's tired.

We're almost off the gabapentin and his balance is noticeably better. I've started giving him 100mg of tramadol at night. He sleeps better, we sleep better, and he has more energy in the morning. So far so good.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Pomom, was she spayed? It may be coat change from the spay. Freyja is going through her first spring shed since her spay and she just keeps shedding (it has been two months now) but she still has a full summer coat and then some. The spay just seems to have changed her coat. 

Laurelin, Thinking of you and Summer.

Fourdogs, I hope the Lasix works for Cookie. 

Sandakat, I'm glad Toby is doing a bit better coming off the gabapentin and sleeping. Does he seem to do better when it is warm or does the weather not really effect him?

Blue is doing well. I do not know if the seizures were some fluke or what but she hasn't had any more. She seems to love her new food (she just really loves food in general though) but I think she has more energy. She is acting more spunky and my son says she has been trying to chase squirrels on her walks. So I think we can schedule her dental and maybe remove those lumps.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Glad to hear everyone is hanging in there ok. Pomom, hopefully it's a spay shed, and she's ok afterwards. Thyroid could be another thing, however, her type of heavy coat, there is a LOT of coat to shed out in the spring. Fingers crossed!

Cookie is coughing less, but if she gets to peppy and jazzed up, she will cough, pant and wheeze. She's little so it's a cute pant, but if she were a big dog, it'd be the heavy, wheezing pant. 
Tomorrow is the X-ray recheck. 
I hold her up to my ears though, and I can hear the murmur loud and clear, as well as the fluid gurgling in her lungs. I know her time is limited. <Sigh>


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Fourdogs, good luck tomorrow with the x-ray. I don't know anything about CHF. Are the lungs always involved? Other than lasix, is there anything else to do for the lungs? Would nebulizing help to loosen the stuff so she can cough it up? I know what you mean about listening to the lungs. I'm always doing it and Gus seems to like it when I do it.

Ever since Gus had his throwing up bout, I haven't been doing the nebulizer on him. He may have a couple more coughs but nothing super major. I'm seeing if I can keep him off the nebulizer since it is going so well. 

Sandakat, it sounds like you have the right medicine balance for Toby. Glad it seems to be working. It's hard having to base the treatments around the drug intolerances. Did you stop the accupuncture and laser?


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Fourdogs, hugs to you. I'm sorry you're going through this.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Thanks guys.

It has to do with the valves on the right side of the heart leaking and pushing fluid backward into the lungs. It's going to keep happening pretty much no matter what I do.

I really don't know if the lasix has helped or not. If she's quiet/calm she stops coughing. Any kind of physical activity and she's coughing and wheezing. 

Totally totally bummed. 

I'll post an update tonight.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Congestive heart failure happens when the heart can't pump strongly enough to keep the blood moving through the system. When this happens the excess pressure in the tissues causes the plasma, the liquid portion of the blood, comes out of the capillaries and goes into the tissues. Depending on how the heart is failing the fluid can go into the lungs or into the other tissues, usually the legs (in people). Lasix is a diuretic that makes you pee out the excess fluid. Depending on the cause of the failure: intrinsic heart disease, valvular disease, lung disease, etc, other treatments will vary. Nebulizers that work on the lungs generally don't make a difference in CHF unless the primary cause is pulmonary, like pulmonary fibrosis. But even then the effect is marginal.

Fourdogs, I hope the xray shows improvement. CHF is scary and it can make you feel so helpless to watch them work to breathe.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Sandakat, thanks for the good explanation. 

I am all over the board on emotions today. I feel like she might have some time left, however, I've lost 2 dogs from CHF. They never had fluid in their lungs though. (Poor Cookie is trying to sleep and gasping at the moment.) 

They get worse and worse. So much meds. So much nursing care. You get to watch them gasp and struggle and cough and pass out. And wrestle meds into them... sigh.

I am just so sad. And I'm mad at myself for being "tired" of caring for very sick dogs. I didn't get much of a break after Darby passed. I'm so guilty for even thinking that!! 

The minutes are so slow today. I can leave at 2:45 to get to the vet by 3:30. Ugh. I tried this morning to get in earlier but no cancellations at all. Poo.

Sorry my feels are all over the place at the moment! Sad, mad, heartbroken, sorry, guilty, sad.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Also, CHF is a vicious cycle - fluid builds in the heart, which may stress the heart, and cause a cough. The stressed heart may cause fluid to build in the lungs and cause a cough, and also put some stress on the heart. The right dose of lasix is good for draining the fluid to relieve a lot of the stress. When the dogs are feeling OK, light exercise - walking - with minimal excitement, is very good for reducing/reversing symptoms. 

Call the Vet and tell her what's going on with Lasix and she may change the dose or prescribe something else. Many times the Vet can alleviate many of the symptoms to extend life for another 6 - 12 mos, but as you know CHF is a chronic condition.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Moose was coughing earlier, when I got home for lunch. I decided I'd call the vet when I got home from work but now he's not coughing :/. I hope he just had a little dust in his throat or something like that. I have tomorrow off so I can keep an eye on him and call the vet if I have to.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Cookie is gone. Long talk with the vet, audible fluid in the lungs (was not audible last week but showed up on X-rays) she had blue lips and tongue, gasping when sleeping... 
My vet is so sweet and supportive. I hate it but I know she didn't have long and it was getting worse rapidly. Having seen two go through CHF before I was able to spare her the trauma of asphyxiation by her own fluids. I let my other two suffer. 

Her favorite thing in the whole world was to eat and she enjoyed some very tasty canned food right up to the end. 

I go between ok to sobbing to ok and now feeling guilty. I cleaned all her stuff out, her bed, pants, collars, everything. I bawled doing so and scared Jack and bewildered Echo. Echo was bringing me stuffed toy after stuffed toy. 

Lost two in 7 weeks. 

I had four dogs 7 weeks ago. 
:broken_heart:
Forgive me but in going to disappear for a little while. My love and prayers to all the sweet seniors.


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

awww fourdogs. I'm so sorry for your loss.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Aww, that's so sad . My favorite cat (age 16) died exactly 3 weeks, to the day, after Toby died. It's so hard. I'm getting real sick of the emergency vet. Take care of yourself!


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Oh, fourdogs. I wish I could give you a hug. I can't even imagine how heartbreaking that is. 

Sent from my SM-P600 using Tapatalk


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Fourdogs, I'm so sorry! Losing one is hard enough, but losing two in such a short time is devastating. Please give yourself a big hug and let yourself feel whatever you are feeling: sad, angry, guilty, relieved... Don't beat yourself up and let yourself grieve, for the dogs and yourself. And give yourself time to go through all of those feelings.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I am so sorry


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Fourdogs I am so sorry.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Fourdogs, I am so sorry. Hopefully you won't feel guilty for long. You didn't do anything wrong. I can't imagine your grief having lost two so close to each other. We're here when you need to talk.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Oh Fourdogs I wish I could be there to bring you casseroles (why do people do this when someone dies?) I wish I could do more for you than just write here. I wish this had not happened at all. Love to Darby. Love to cookie. Love to you.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Remaru said:


> Pomom, was she spayed? It may be coat change from the spay. Freyja is going through her first spring shed since her spay and she just keeps shedding (it has been two months now) but she still has a full summer coat and then some. The spay just seems to have changed her coat


Wow good thought. She was spayed in December


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

How are all the sweet dogs today? 

I woke this morning feeling a lot more positive, so that's good. I miss my girls. I took a look back in my pictures on my iPhone at my girls and it was a flood of tears and sorrow. But in the end I know it was the best thing for them. 

The house is very quiet without Cookie! She was bossy, demanded her meals at 7am and 5pm SHARP and HURRY UP already fixing the food!! She won't be here to keep Echo (50b PWD) in line anymore  She also won't chase every visitor out of the house and bite their pant legs either. 

The difference between Cookie "suddenly gone" and Darby "gradually removed herself from family" is astounding. 

Today I decided no more sad. It's not doing anyone any good. Today I will look back to the joyful things they did. Their healthy, happy days. And see, they can still bring me joy, even though they are not here. 

Meanwhile, I spent some time feeling horrifically guilty because just 2 HEALTHY and normal sized (not teeny tiny) dogs are SO EASY to care for! Cookie wore diapers. She also didn't come when called when it was time to take the dogs out to pee. So I'd have to go search the house for her and pick her up, carry her to the door, take off diaper, carry her outside to her pen (where she can't get trampled), then go inside, change out the pad in the diaper, and reverse the whole process to bring her in again. Not to mention, she was in a huge crate with a bed and water bowl in the back side, and a pee pad in the front side. Had to change all that out in the morning, as she has to pee over night. And then if we go anywhere for more than a couple hours, she'd wet then too. She was an absolute darling, but a lot of extra work. But I still adored her. But wow, is it ever easy to potty dogs. Call dogs, they come running from anywhere, open door, dogs run out, open door, dogs run in! 

Thanks for listening. 

I hope I don't have to revisit this situation in a long, long time!! 

Anyway, just wanted to see how your dogs are all doing now. <3


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Well, Shep has had a run of good days, less hobbling, stumbling and catching himself (rather than falling), sleeping most of the night, sleeping peacefully during the day, and eating two full meals everyday. He has developed a bad habit of pooping in the house, 3 - 4 times a month. He's no incontinent, but maybe he can hold it as long, when he has to go ... plus he can't stand up by himself on the carpets or hardwood floors. He usually barks when he wants to get up and sometimes it means he NEEDS to get up and go out, but I'm not fast enough, or he doesn't have enough warning. ... In any case, it's a mess to cleanup. If I'm lucky, it's just the floor, but sometimes, I have to clean him, also.

He's been able to catch some treats tossed directly to him, but I don't think he can see them, clearly. He's learned to accommodate his feet turning under when he goes down the stairs, almost catching himself most of the time, but I still guide him/carry him, so that he can't fall. 

When he was young, I left him in the backyard to sleep in the sun. When he started tripping, he didn't like to be outside by himself, but recently he's been enjoying the nice Spring weather, sleeping in the garden ... and he can stand up by himself in the soft ground. 

I have him on gabapentin, which seems to work well to take the edge off, but I'd like to try something else. I had trouble with Tramadol ... I didn't like the side effects. And, Metacam was great, but his liver numbers rose quickly on the required titered amount. 

I guess one downside is that Shep seems to realize how 'fragile' he is, and he is very tentative around other dogs and especially puppies. He's hesitant, acting like he remembers that if a tiny puppy jumps on him, Shep might fall... so I can't socialize him much, which I think had helped him almost as much as his daily walks.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Hanksimon, I'm glad Shep's having a bunch of good days.

We've got Toby off of the gabapentin, which seems to have improved his balance. On the downside, the tramadol doesn't seem to be holding him at night any more. Last night, for example, he was extremely restless. He paces and pants, then scrapes at the carpet, and finally lies down. That lasts a few minutes and he's up, panting again. He'll go to a different room, paw at the carpet and lie down, just to get up again. This goes on most of the night. I don't know if it's pain, or a cognitive dysfunction, but it's frustrating for the whole household. Of course, he sleeps just fine during the day.

I'm thinking of increasing his bedtime dose to 150mg, but that's pushing the dosing for his weight. The problem is, it's one of the few medications we've found that he can take.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

(((Shep))) (((Toby))) These sweet old guys! Sorry to hear that metacam didn't work well for Shep for the liver numbers. Darby was on it from age 9 and her liver enzymes were already elevated around 228- and they stayed that way every 6 months for years... just right up until November when they began to skyrocket. It really did help her with pain, especially sleeping. 

Hope you are able to find something for him so he can rest comfortably at bedtime. And for Toby too! <3


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

4 dogs I am so so sorry for your losses. I've lost 2 dogs very close to each other (one pup and one oldie). It's so hard.

Summer is cancer free, but has Chronic rhinitis - eosinophlic. 

"Medications:
1. Zonisamide 25mg: Give 1 tablet by mouth every 12 hours. **rx from pdvm**
Physical Exam:
Temp: 101.6
Pulse: 130 beats per minute
Respirations: panting
CRT/MM: < 2 seconds/pink, moist
Weight: 3.5 kilograms
Diagnostics Performed:
1. Coags:
PT: 12.0 seconds range: 11.0-17.0 seconds
PTT: 111.0 seconds range: 72.0-102.0 seconds
2. Radiographs: Two view thoracic films were unremarkable
3. CT scan: declined at this time
4. Rhinoscopy: Proliferative tissue on left side with no obvious mass or discoloration of tissue, mild discharge in both
nostrils, no masses or foreign objects noted over soft palate. No nasal mites noted.
5. Histopath: Eosinophilic inflammation"

"Case Summary: Summer is a 12 year old FS Papillon who presented to the internal medicine service for evaluation of
chronic sneezing/nasal congestion. On presentation, Summer was bright and alert. She had intermittent stertorous
breathing but was otherwise unremarkable. We discussed possible causes and recommended thoracic radiographs,
CT scan and rhinoscopy. The thoracic radiographs were unremarkable. The owner elected to go forward with
rhinoscopy without CT scan. A coagulation profile was done prior to biopsying which wa snormal.
The rhinoscopy showed proliferative tissue in the left nasal cavity with a normal appearance to the mucosa. There was
mild discharge in both nasal cavities. Several biopsies were taken and submitted for histopathology. The
histopathology came back consistent with an eosinophilic rhinitis. This can be secondary to an allergy or could be
idiopathic (cause not identified). We would recommend not using anything aerosolized, carpet cleaners, scented plug
ins, etc which may cause inflammation in the nose. We will prescribe a higher dose of steroids for a couple weeks ot
assess her response. We are also prescribing an antibiotic to treat for a possible secondary infection and as an
immunomodulator. If Summer responds well to the steroids and we are unable to wean her down, we will discuss
inhaled steroids or another anti-inflammatory (such as piroxicam). Unfortunately rhinitis is not curable but can usually
be managed with medications. In some cases, patients require medications lifelong.
Medications:
• Prednisone 5 mg tabs #60: Give 1 tab by mouth every 12 hours. Do not discontinue.
• Doxycycline 100 mg tabs #7:GIve 1/4 tab by mouth every 12 hours with food.
Recheck: Please schedule a recheck in 2-3 weeks so we can assess response to therapy and start tapering
medications if able."

Getting some answers. Very glad it's not cancer and am hopeful we can find good medication for her.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Last night when we got home from seeing Captain America Civil War (which was awesome, go see it!) our most amazing Bobb got himself under the huskies in the excitement of our return. I don't know exactly what happened but Bobb started screaming. Screaming so hard he rolled onto his back and was just screaming and screaming. I couldn't touch him for maybe 10 seconds because he was in so much pain. He was just laying on his back and screaming I gently scooped him up and he kept screaming, holding his little front nub out to the side. It took him several minutes to stop. Minutes of screams every breath, slowly becoming less intense and quieter whines as tears filled my eyes. 
As I held him I was able to start gently prodding and rubbing. His shoulder and elbow are fine. When he finally stopped I got him outside to potty and he hopped fine, peed, came back in and was fed. I asked him to "reach" to extend his nub but instead of extending he held it out to the side. After he ate I gently went over his nub again. It's the end that really, really hurts. All I have is tramadol so I gave him that. 


I barely slept last night. He yelped and whined whenever he moved, whenever the end of his nub touched anything including the bed. I balled up the sheets into his chest so his nub could be on top and supported.

Around 6am he went off screaming and screaming and screaming again, no idea what he did but it startled me awake. By the time we got out of bed around 9am he was doing better and wasn't crying with gentle touch anymore.










He's still very, very tender and sore on the end of his nub and holding it out to the side though. Since his amputation wasn't surgical, the bone inside is sharp and jagged. If the end got bonked hard I can imagine it would be excruciating like this as the bone stabbed into him inside the end of his nub.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If his nub is painful, would it be better to amputate at the shoulder like a normal amputation? Poor little guy .


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Laurelin, that's good news that it is not cancer. Hopefully the meds will help her feel better so you can get her on a maintenance regiment. Gus is on an inhaler and nebulizer for lung issues. If you go the route for inhaled steroids, getting them from a Canadian pharmacy is much cheaper. Right now I do Flonase with him and nebulize gentocin as needed.

Sibe, that sounds so scary with Bob. As I first started reading it, I was hoping that getting knocked over by the big guys just scared him. If he was holding it out to the side, do you think he could have dislocated it? That bone hitting stuff sounds real painful. Hopefully he will continue to feel better.


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## mrsserena (Nov 9, 2015)

Aww, if it would be better for Bobb to have surgery on his little nub, I'm sure you could raise the funds with a go fund me. I will donate!


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

We considered a full amputation but he actually uses it without pain. He has a callous on the length of it now from use. He pushes himself up and such with it. If (when) he needs anesthesia we'll be cleaning up his back nub since it has a lot of extra skin. I'm not sure it's worth it to mess with the front because it's functional for him and typically isn't painful. We know it's a possibility for the bone to try to regrow and then we would need to amputate further. 

I'm sure it's not dislocated, that or a break were my first thoughts. His shoulder and elbow bend and move fine and he lets me press and rub them. It's the tip of the nub that hurts. If he was still in terrible pain he would have gone in for xrays to check for a break or dislocation. 

As of now it's still tender but not actively bothering him from the looks of it. Doesn't want the end touched but the rest is fine. I'll keep watching it closely.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

He was doing about the same yesterday, but last night was in a lot of pain again. Yelping any time his nub touched anything. Decided it was vet time. Vet gave us Rimadyl, pain med+anti-inflammatory and Bobb will be on it the next ~3-4 weeks. We have a recheck in 3 weeks. Vet agrees it's badly bruised. Will take time. I'm pulling Bobb from agility classes and we'll have to take it really easy and basic on his rehab exercises to limit the chance that he'll bonk his nub. A usual little bonk isn't a big deal, but right now it would hurt so we'll be taking it easy.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Poor little guy! I'm sorry he's had a setback.

Laurelin, I'm really glad it isn't cancer. Long term steroids are no fun but they're doable and much better than having a diagnosis of cancer.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Poor Bobb! I saw your FB post about it and I hope the meds help.


SO glad Summer doesn't have cancer! I wonder if you did a food intolerance test with Dr. Dodds to reduce her allergen bucket and maybe reduce her symptoms? 


How are Today and Shep? I'm so glad they are doing ok and hanging in there.


I almost brought goats home this week. Goats. i don't even like goats! But there is a bottle baby available at a nearby farm and he was so cute and my heart so sad I said yes. And then put a lot of thought in it and told her never mind. 

I can't believe Cookie is gone. I miss her every day. Darby I was prepared for. Darby I had time to understand what was going on and accept it. Cookie. One week. Boom. Gone. I hardly cry, but I just feel wrong. I keep looking for her when it's time to potty dogs. I miss everything about her, even the parts that drove me crazy. I do't have my barking chihuahua alarm in the morning. I don't have my barking chihuahua alarm for breakfast and dinner doggy meals (I've forgotten to feed Echo and Jack at supper time!!). She's not in my lap, silky soft and so sweet. She really loved me. I miss her tiny feet, I miss how she only had 3 legs but didn't care and always got up, tail wagging, when she tripped and face-planted. She was funny. all the little noises she made. I wish I could reverse time and magically fix her heart.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm so sorry to all of you who have lost dogs recently or who are struggling with illnesses. It really is the worst part of dog ownership. But being there for them in their time of need and taking care of them is one of the most beautiful things, in my opinion, even though it breaks your heart into tiny little pieces.

I'm not sure if I ever posted here about Tucker. In January we had him at the vet for what looked like an irritated eye. After weeks of medication it never cleared up and seemed worse, like the eye was protruding a bit. Took him back in in February and then went to see an ophthalmologist. Her diagnosis was basically that he needed his eye removed, but she suggested less drastic approaches first. She prescribed a round of antibiotics and heat compresses several times a day thinking it may be an abscess in his sinuses that stemmed from a suspicious looking 'lump' in the very back of his mouth. Again, nothing cleared it up, though the heat compresses did seem to soothe it. 
Thinking that our only option was surgery we had him checked to see if he was physically fit for surgery - xrays to make sure if it was cancer it hadn't spread anywhere that would make taking his eye out pointless (lungs, heart, etc). Xrays came up clear and blood work came up excellent. But, he has a heart murmur :/ At almost 11 years old and 110lbs (lean) the vet couldn't really tell us what to do. She reminded us that age isn't a disease - he's otherwise fit and healthy, though he has slowed down a little which is a given. We made the hard decision to try to manage him the best we can versus doing the surgery. He's also my parent's dog technically, I grew up with him and I still feed/walk him even though I have since moved out of the house. The decision was theirs to make, but I was there with them and agree. 
Fast forward to this week - he had been doing well with just meloxicam given when he seemed to be a little mopey and heat compresses/ice several times a day. He then had a terrible nose bleed in which he was snorting out clots and just gushing blood. I was in the yard with him when it happened - he was off peeing on stuff and sniffing around and happily walked over to me with blood pouring from his nose. We got him into the vet, where they told us there wasn't anything they could really do. His eye at that point also seemed extra swollen and I was concerned that something had ruptured (tumor?) and he may be in pain, but the vet said that if that was the case he would be deteriorating, which he wasn't. I asked if we could try prednisone to control the swelling/inflammation - as much as I don't want him on steroids, it was either manage it or he'd need to be put down because he was obviously uncomfortable and miserable the way he was. 
As of yesterday/today (the nose bleed incident was Monday) he is doing much better. Actually even better than before the nosebleed. He's been hiking with us and even played with a toy for the first time in months. So the prednisone was a good idea, at least. I think there was a lot of pressure on the eye from the swelling that was making him very uncomfortable. 

So, now we sit in limbo. We know the time is coming, but don't know how much we have left. For now it's managed, but who knows what will happen down the road. My only consolation is that he's already an old guy and lived a good life - that, and the fact that I know we will do everything we can for him and he will be getting even more spoiled than usual.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Don't you wish they could tell us how they feel? It would make everything so much easier!

I'm glad Tucker is doing better, and spoiling him seems like absolutely the right answer.

Toby continues his decline. We've had to be consistent about putting the harness on him so he can get up and down the stairs. His back end just doesn't know what his front end is doing. A few days ago he almost fell when his back end just gave out. He managed to stay up, but it was close. He's also now on 150mg of Tramadol at night so he (and we) can sleep. Otherwise he roams the house and pants and scratches at the carpet.

Today I'm going to put him in the car and drive down to Sacramento, about 100 miles from here. The breeder who owned his mother is in town and really wants to see him. The last time she saw him was about 7 years ago. She knows this is going to be the last time she gets to see him since she lives in Seattle and doesn't get down here often. I think it's going to be a cry-fest for both of us.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

How are all the woofers doing? 

I think I am out of my funk from losing Cookie. That was tough. 
And then two satrudays ago, the neighbor gave away her old mule, B, who dd and I have been caring for and riding for some months now. Just about ripped my heart out! 

Animals keep disappearing around me.

My heart longs to fill all these empty spots, but I'm trying to be patient with myself. It's really easy to have the two dogs who have no issues at the moment, both very good in the house, no peeing inside like Darby and Cookie did (going to actually buy some rugs at some point! yay!), no behavior problems. It's nice. 

Hugs to everyone!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Moose is declining . He doesn't want to eat right now. Well, he'll eat, but only about half of what he should be eating. And he seems a little depressed. I'm not sure if the vet can do anything but I'm going to see if I can get him in this week. Maybe arthritis pain is making him sad? Although his mobility seems OK. He'll be 13 next month and I know that's super old for a Rott. . .


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@sydneynicole - re: tucker, sorry to hear about all the trouble. Sounds scary. For what it's worth, Shep had surgery to remove a tumor from his foot ... when he was 13 !!! and came through it just fine. You may not want the result of removing his eye, but if it becomes necessary, I think Tucker can handle the procedure...

@FourDogs - Please don't get a goat. If you need a goat, get a Lab instead ... nearly the same and much cuter ;-)

I don't see any problem with going around to look at Chi puppies ... ;-)

Shep is doing 'better'. I walk him for only 15 - 20 min., rather than 30 - 40 min. And that seems to help. If I stand around and talk with neighbors, he may walk away (he's off leash), or may just lie down (or collapse) in the grass ... then be ready to walk more after the short rest.

Gabapentin seems to last about 5 - 6 hours rather than 8 - 12 hours, so I may go visit the Vet and ask about Metacam, referencing the liver numbers. I think Gabapentin helps him sleep ... He was sleeping 20 - 22 hours before Gabapentin, he looking mostly more comfortable now, except he doesn't seem comfortable (?) on his side ... or lying upright to sleep. He'll shift between upright and on his side, until he falls asleep.

He had problems with his ears, but no infection, so I'm dosing him with Oxyfresh, which seems to help. And he had a large callous on his nose, which I rubbed away with Kerasal - Thanks to Fourdogs and Sassafras!

The in house pooping is annoying but manageable. I think Shep knows he has to go, but can't hold it as long as he could. So, if I hear him stirring and 'carry' him outside, like you might do for a 75 lb puppy that can't walk .... then he usually doesn't have an accident. So, I have to catch him first thing in the morning, about 11am, 3pm, ~8pm, and before bed. On the other hand, I've watched him sleeping peacefully, and have a bowel movement ??? Next time someone says you Can teach an old dog ... ask them how to re-Housetrain ... LOL. I'm not sure of the 'biology' but even if Shep were completely mobile, I think he'd still have this problem ... but I don't think I'd call it incontinent ... yet.

Although he is falling more and cannot get up by himself anymore, I could see one or two more years of non-suffering (on his part not mine) deterioration.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I feel like I jinx myself every time I post in this thread :/. So here we are at the e-vet. . .when I got home (around 9 pm, my aunt is in the hospital and we were all there after work), Moose was breathing very heavily and his gums were white. I'm afraid it's his heart. They have him in back for x-rays right now. They tried drawing blood but his veins kept collapsing. Argh.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Bobb is doing pretty good. We went to the 5th annual disABLED pet rally on Sunday. He did their "agility" event which was jump bar (put up to 24" so dogs with wheels could go under, it was super cute), short tunnel, then jump bar.

Still out of agility classes and not really doing his physical therapy either until his recheck on his nub next week. It's not bothering him in the slightest, but I don't know if that's because it's actually better or because Rimadyl makes it so he can't feel anything. The latter is why we're holding off on PT and agility for now. He did get a gentle massage ("ortho-bionomy") at the pet rally that he really loved!









Video clip, he has a couple seconds of when he was on stage after the agility demo. The participation medal says "Pawsitively Awesome."
http://www.koaa.com/clip/12455816/disabled-pets-rally-breaks-down-stigmas-about-injured-animals


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I feel like I jinx myself every time I post in this thread :/. So here we are at the e-vet. . .when I got home (around 9 pm, my aunt is in the hospital and we were all there after work), Moose was breathing very heavily and his gums were white. I'm afraid it's his heart. They have him in back for x-rays right now. They tried drawing blood but his veins kept collapsing. Argh.


Aw, I'm so sorry Willowy. 

I didn't want to post about it until I made it to the vet, but I ended up missing two different appointments in the past two weeks because I got out of work late. Might be for the best because I'm thinking about traveling to a different vet in a nearbyish town that a friend recommended. She says he takes his time and takes her concerns very seriously, while our vet that is about 5 minutes away tends to be kind of rushed/overbooked. Anyway, Sid's got some kind of cyst-looking thing on her back leg. When I google it, the closest looking images are of mast cell tumors. I've always thought she had the teensiest bit of a limp from when she broke her leg as a puppy, but no one else really saw it so I assumed I was imagining it. But the other day a friend of mine mentioned it on a walk and now it's starting to concern me a lot more. Calling the new vet when I get home tonight. Really hoping it's just a zit or some kind of benign growth...she's only 9...


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Aw Willowy  What did the X-ray show for Moose? Pale gums is definitely a concern. Fingers crossed and hugs and love to you!

Hanksimon, I'm glad to hear Shep is still plugging along. I think once they get so old and creaky they have a hard time holding poo or getting to the door quick enough. Poop pup. 

As for the goats.... I'm hot and cold about them! DH thinks they'll be fantastic for brush control. There's honeysuckle taking over the fencing now, and goats supposedly love that. There's poison oak and ivy there too, and in the woods. The matter is fencing off the property for them, and leaving enough for us/dogs. Plus, honestly I'd rather have a couple mini horses than goats! At this point, can't really spend the dollars on the fencing anyway, so no goats anyhow. 

I think my heart is just feeling pretty dang empty!! I DO have 4 week old chicks though, to add to the 6 I already have


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Moose is gone. X-rays showed his abdomen full of cancer, it had spread to his lungs and a tumor was bleeding into his abdomen. Nothing to be done at that point. You would think he would have shown symptoms earlier. . .last week he was playing his favorite game: tossing his Wubba around and pouncing on it. He seemed to be feeling fine. It's amazing that he didn't feel worse with all that growing inside him.

3 pets in 4 months. I think the e-vets are starting to think I have a problem. . .


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Moose is gone. X-rays showed his abdomen full of cancer, it had spread to his lungs and a tumor was bleeding into his abdomen. Nothing to be done at that point. You would think he would have shown symptoms earlier. . .last week he was playing his favorite game: tossing his Wubba around and pouncing on it. He seemed to be feeling fine. It's amazing that he didn't feel worse with all that growing inside him.
> 
> 3 pets in 4 months. I think the e-vets are starting to think I have a problem. . .


Aw, I'm sorry Willowy. I hope it's a comfort to know that he was active and enjoying life so close to the end.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I"m so sorry Willowy! That's a lot of heartbreaks! Hugs and love to you!!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm so sorry, Willowy.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm very sorry, Willowy.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

SydneyNicole, how is Tucker doing with his eye?

Willowy, just sending love and hugs to you!


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Willowy, I'm so sorry! Good thoughts and hugs to you!


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Willowy, I am so sorry. I guess the active to the end is both good news and bad. You didn't have time to prepare but it sounds like Moose had a great life up til the end.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I agree good and bad news. 

I've had some time to reflect on losing Darby and Cookie so close together and under different circumstances. Darby. I could SEE it coming. I knew. The pain was great leading up to her passing, it was torture. Good days, bad days. I loved her so much, she didn't deserve to be going through any of that. Pretty sure I was grieving for her before she was even gone. 

Cookie. Fine one week, not the next and really bad by another week's time. Shocking, yes, but she suffered very little. 

I hate this part about having pets. Currently I am having ups/downs. I know I've always said I only want 2 dogs. And it IS easy, and it IS affordable! But I just feel so empty. 
I didn't quite want to get down to two this quickly!

Anyway. hope you are ok Willowy.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, I feel the same. With Moose it happened so quickly, but then he was 13 so it wasn't entirely unexpected either. With Toby I saw it coming for a couple of weeks but still didn't expect it to end so soon. I'm not sure which is better/worse.

I want to have only 2 dogs. . .but Penny is also 13, and so. . .. I caught myself looking at a free puppy ad on craigslist. Even though I don't like puppies, haha. Good thing the pups in that ad were 90 miles away or I might have one by now. Oh well, I'll see how things work out. I should give the girls a little while to adjust to being the only 2 dogs before I go do something drastic.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

So sorry for your loss, Willowy  And thank you everyone for your words of encouragement. 

Tuck is now having 'breathing fits' where he will basically gasp for air like he is choking. Xrays still aren't showing anything that could be causing it, which is frustrating because we're still in the 'well, I don't know, maybe taking his eye out and doing some exploring would help' boat. I was walking him about a week ago and he was fine, fine, fine then suddenly was on 3 legs. He's been improving and putting weight on it but still has a significant limp. The vet doesn't think it's CCL since he's getting better just from rest so quickly. But I'm a little upset because I have no idea how much time he has left and now he can't do any of the things he loves the most (hiking, swimming, walks, general errand running). I'm hoping he'll be sound enough to go out again soon. I've been leaving the other dogs home since he gets very upset if I take them away without him, but eventually I'm going to have to get them out of the house before they go nuts (more than they already have). Finally, the muscle on the effected half of his head is all but gone. 

Oh and today he wouldn't eat his kibble, but he did eat an egg and some of Oli's raw. Due to the muscle loss he's probably going to need to be switched to canned/raw from now on

He otherwise is in good spirits, got a new toy he's been carrying around, still sits at the top of the hill and wards off bikers and joggers with his seal bark.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Toby has hit a plateau, which I guess is good since he was declining so quickly for a while. We leave the Help Em Up harness on him most of the time so we can help him get to his feet if he needs it. Getting him up the stairs is a real pain. Going down just requires some encouragement and maybe a little help but going up he's got to be bribed with treats and sometimes we just have to manhandle him up the stairs.

The tramadol is mostly still working at night. Lately he's been a little more restless, but we're hoping that once the weather settles down he'll be less uncomfortable.

Lastly, he's been less interested in his food. We have to add peanut butter or turkey meat to it to get him to eat. I don't know if that's because he's losing his sense of smell or just something to do with his age.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Aw Toby (((hugs)))


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear about Toby. It's interesting the differences ... and similarities. I didn't like how Tramadol works on Shep, I like Metacam, but it hurt his liver numbers, however, I like Gabapentin b/c it seems to help his nerve problems, and is reported to cause drowsiness, which I like b/c Shep sleeps easily and with lots of dreams (which I believe is a good thing). He also needs to be 'hand-fed' and encouraged to eat (I use canned food as a condiment mixed into the dry). I think he'll eat anything if I put peanut butter on it [@Sandakat- Does Toby like peanut butter?].

Shep can't climb up or down the 4 steps into the house, so I have to partial manhandle him 4 times a day. Ditto for the car, but not that much. I tried a harness, but I didn't seem to have control when his feet knuckle under. I think that's been going on for 2 years. And I have two related questions.

1. Is there any difference between adult food for a small dog and plain adult food? I understand the difference for large breed puppies, but I don't think I have to worry about Shep's growth plates ;-). Comparing the ingredients, it seems like the protein, fat, and (therefore) calorie content is higher for small breed. Because Shep doesn't exercise much, except for daily hobbling for 20 min. twice a day, he's lost significant muscle, so I imagine extra calories wouldn't hurt, since he can't really eat enough to get fat (I wish he'd gain 10 lbs). Is there something else I'm missing? Also, is there any danger using a tablespoon of wet cat food as a condiment, taste enhancer? It may be too rich and give him the runs, but otherwise, I'm assuming a taste with every meal wouldn't hurt? a 75 lb Lab.

2. Shep's right back leg is starting to give way. When he's walking, Shep will list to the right, take a few more steps, and then just fall into a sitting position. It doesn't look like it hurts or that he feels it, but he can't get up from a down position, under any circumstances. Also, he may fall as he walks and poops. I think it is nerve deterioration (stenosis?). Are there any meds to help with this, other than gabapentin, that I can ask the Vet about? Again, I don't think this is pain related... It could be arthritis, if arthritis is not painful.

But, interesting story. [Related digression, if someone is about to faint and you order them "Don't faint," sometimes you can 'shock' them back conscious, without having to put their head between their knees ... but be prepared to catch them  ] So, I've been trying to teach Shep, "Don't Fall". I think he understands the cue now, but I have to catch him, before it's too late, so he has time to catch himself. As he loses mobilities, I've been 'forcing' him or helping him to adapt and when the decline is slow, he's been learning to accommodate his instabilities. It's VERY unexpected, and I haven't read anything like it (except in the new Parkinson studies).

I'm considered if he doesn't learn to catch himself, this will be the last straw...

We had an event the other morning. Shep had more trouble getting up than normal, he was panting and drooling more than usual... and I was depressed, ready to call the Vet for an appointment, a few hours before they opened. I gave him his meds and took him for his normal walk, and he was hesitant, so I prodded him along. He fell a few times during the walk. Nothing painful, just a few collapses from dragging feet and knuckling under. I stopped to talk with a neighbor that Shep likes, Shep just collapsed in the cool grass while we talked. Twenty minutes later, Shep made it clear that he was ready to go and ready for breakfast. I picked him up and he hobbled a little faster. He ate breakfast just fine, he had stopped drooling and panted only what's normal for a morning in the South. I assume the Gabapentin had kicked in and the 'event' was over. Today, a few days later, I found a crushed gabapentin capsule in the rug. Sometimes, Shep will crunch on the capsule and it tastes bad, so he'll shake his head. If the capsule flies out, that means he gets only half a dose. It happens fewer than 3 times a month - this is the first time this month, so I don't always catch it. ... Before I take him to the Vet for that final visit, I guess I'll have to give him a dose of gabapentin and wait a hour ;-)


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Oh yes, Darby told me that gabapentin was terrible terrible!

on question 1. Yes, I think he'd be good on the adult small breed food. more protein/fat for him might be of some help as long as he's at a good weight, or even needing a little more weight. 

2. I don't have an answer for this one <3 

Good boy, Shep, keep plugging along!


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

Taking Tucker for a walk on the trails in the woods tomorrow despite his still-sore leg. His mind is still there but his body is failing him. He keeps trying to break out of the house to go for his walks and I just can't bring myself to coop him up any longer not knowing how long we have left with him. 

Discussed surgery with the vet but she feels his condition has declined too much for a decent chance of him getting off the table alive. I don't regret not doing the surgery, as he still didn't have the odds in his favor even when this all first started and his quality of life has still been very high (mine, however, has taken a plunge with all the stress and worry).

For those struggling getting their dogs to eat, Tucker's favorite is a raw egg and a handful of shredded cheese mixed into his kibble on the days he isn't feeling like eating. But if we're going sans kibble of course nothing beats ground beef and rice  

For Shep, I agree that the higher protein/fat would be helpful. I also found Tucker has a better time eating smaller kibbles. We switched him from Acana (regular sized) to Evo (small kibbles) and he's eating that better, plus the fish formula is super stinky and fishy smelling which entices him to eat more.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

hanksimon, Toby loves peanut butter. We use that in his food or for a treat or to give him medications sometimes. I also use an egg or shredded cheese in his food to entice him. 

Toby's back end just doesn't know what his front end is doing anymore. The harness has been a godsend. ( I put up a picture of the stairs he has to go up and down every day in the pictures section.) We use the harness to support his back end in both directions. Sometimes we have to use the front handle to help him get started.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll keep feeding Shep the small dog food. He is back to an even keel. However the rain makes potty outings a little harder. For those who watch the weather, we are ground zero for the Memorial Day Tropical Storm Bonnie landfall ... mostly lots of rain for the next 3 - 4 days, so I have an umbrella and Shep - a Lab mix! - just gets soaked. In his current shape, he's not as happy getting rained on ... but he also doesn't avoid walking in puddles 

@Sydneynicole- As far as surgery, I know it's not the same as eye problems and massive bleeding, but Shep has had a 5 lb lump (cancer/lipoma) on his stomach for 2 years, b/c the surgery and the recovery would be significant. It causes a problem with balance, but Not removing it hasn't seemed to affect his length of life...

As far as more meds, I guess we'll need to go back to the Vet for additional suggestions.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

@hankismom - Thanks. The vet and I decided that the surgery was too large of an undertaking and recovery earlier on in his treatment, and I definitely don't regret the decision. He may have made it, but he may not have, and he (we) would have missed out on many good months with him as a result. With the old guys you've gotta take over all stress on the body from surgery and length/difficulty of recovery into consideration. 

I hope you can get Shep's med situation sorted out soon.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Toby has taken another downhill turn. Last night he fell going down the stairs for our evening walk. His front legs went out from under him and he surfed on his belly down most of the flight of stairs. Luckily I was at the bottom and I was able to grab him before he hit the ground. He didn't injure himself but he was certainly freaked out by it. We had to almost carry him back up after his walk. 

It seems that it's his front legs that are giving him more trouble than his rear end now. He'll stand at the bottom of the stairs and sort of rock back and forth until he can get his front legs started. If we try to help him by taking the weight off of his front end it seems to make him more unstable, but if we only grab the back, it doesn't help his front. Just now, on our noon walk, he slipped going up and couldn't organize himself to get going again, so we essentially had to carry him up.

That's not a viable answer. My wife is going out of town next week so I'll be trying to get him up and down on my own. I think we're going to go to the lumbar yard this afternoon and look for a big plank so we can make some sort of ramp. It won't cover the whole flight, but maybe we can take away about half of it.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Willowy, I'm so, so sorry. What a brutal few months.


Bobb's issues seem hardly worth mentioning with the heavier more serious concerns many of you are having, but he did go in to the vet for his recheck today after bonking his nub a few weeks ago and being in so much pain. His nub is doing great, though now his shoulder is popping. Our rehab appointment is next Monday so I'll have them take a closer feel of it. A few weeks ago the vet also noted that Bobb's pupils are different sizes. Though he can see well, his eyes are a little cloudy with cataracts. There was no change over the past few weeks so we decided to do a glaucoma test. The vet said normal pressure is 18. Bobb's is low at 9 in his left eye and 11 in his right eye. The vet told us this indicates inflammation in the nerves. As his eyes don't seem to be bothering him, and he's on Rimadyl anyway for another week which reduces inflammation, we're going to wait on doing anything for his eyes. I'm not too concerned at this point because they don't bother him and he can see.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Hi everyone! I've been gone a long time! Good to see so many of you still here, though the news is not good.

Willowy, I am so sorry. Good and bad like everyone has said. Hope went suddenly too. I think it was better for me and her than the two year decline I went through with Pippin. How are you doing?

SydneyNicole, is he still on the Pred? Pippin was on Prednisolone for two years for his disc and while it did affect his liver numbers, the neurologist said it didn't indicate liver failure

Fourdogs, it's good to see you! I am down to just Sybbie and me. No more birds, rabbits or fish even. And I live alone. It's quiet! But it's easy!

Hanksimon, as long as there are no kidney issues that call for low protein, you should be fine.

Sandakat, Toby's fall must have given you a heart attack! Pippin fell sideways down three stairs once when any jumping ON HIS FEET could have paralyzed him and he was ok.

Sibe, I'm glad Bobb is not bothered. 

Re anorexia, I cooked for Pippin the last month. I did boiled chicken breast, rice, zucchini, spinach, carrots. I don't think it was very balanced, but at that point it was the only thing he would eat other than Royal Canin Recovery Formula which gave him diarrhea.

Sybbie and I are doing well. I have gotten over my fear that she has Alopecia. I think it was spring blow + first big shed after spay. We had our first CGN prep class tonight and it was so good to be back in training. I am so glad I got her before Pippin left me. My boyfriend has a 12 yo lab who is now showing her age and he has decided not to get another dog until after her. It's different for everyone. 

Good to see you all! Love to the babies.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Good to see you Pomom. 

Thinking good thoughts for Shep and Toby and glad to hear Bobb's nub is much better! 

I hear you on the "easy" with just you and Sybbie!

Right now I'm loving 2 dogs. It felt just completely WRONG for several weeks. And just last week it started to feel more normal again. I think the worst of the grief is over now. Initially, I was spending a lot of time looking at my local shelter, pet finder and craigslist for dogs or maybe a kitten, but that feeling has passed now, thankfully! Each time I'd find something (I was actually offered a poodle by Jack's breeder, and a bichon or chihuahua by my friend who I used to show bichons with years ago! LOL) I'd stop and think, and wear the idea for a while. Imagine the potty training. Setting up another crate, collars, tags, feeding, poop scooping, training for manners, etc. I also learned to ask myself every time I looked at an animal that I thought I needed- what does this new animal have that I can't get from one of the pets I already have?? That usually stopped me right in my tracks. 

Of course, still have DD's cat, bunny and gerbils (the latter two we will not replace those when they pass- the gerbils are coming up on 3, I hope that is about it for their lifespan!! and rabbits live around 10 years, Ruby is 3. She's indoor so that helps with longer lifespan but honestly I Hate having her indoors. Rabbit pee stinks!)
And then a dozen hens in 3 chicken tractors. 

And NOW, 2 Nigerian Dwarf goats will be coming to live here. They do have "jobs" as brush control, though. and DH also wanted them, so I feel ok with the idea. 

Can I just say, outdoor pets are the bomb! I should like to eventually be down to 2 dogs (small to medium size) and just the chickens. Not sure about how the goats is going to go but worth a try. Definitely lots of browse and brush for them to eat here. 

Anyway, I'll be checking here to see how your guys are doing <3


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks for the news update, fourdogs! Working goats! I know I remember how much my rabbit smelled. He was indoor in a bachelor apartment! An English Angora named Rosebush.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Toby has started doing something weird. It seems like he can't find the kibble in his bowl or even locate the bowl itself. He'll start eating just fine, then he moves to the edge of the bowl so that his upper teeth are on the outside of the bowl and his lowers are inside. He's trying to scoop up the kibble while chewing on the bowl. I've put his nose back in the bowl but it only works for a bite or two and then he's outside again. He does better if I put something like yoghurt or cheese in with the kibble but this morning he still chewed on the bowl even with some turkey in with his food.

He can't go up the stairs on his own at all anymore. I have to take about 90% of his weight, which both of us hate. It completely freaks him out.

It's amazing how quickly he's going downhill again after holding stable for a few weeks. This completely sucks.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

My dogs are all reaching an age when a person can expect things to happen. Susie, is 12 which being a Bernese cross, is a good age. She gets around pretty good on her own, still sees and hears but I am sure not as well as when she was younger. My Shih Tzu x Maltese were just over 8, 9 and the oldest was 11 in March. Surprisingly, the one I just lost was the one just over 9. She seemed to not have any problems other than her sight and hearing were going. She had a slight heart murmur found when I had her teeth done last year. She still happily went on walks with the others, running along and seeming fine. I had to leave her and Monty, the 11 year old at my niece's place which I have done before, when I went to an Agility trial. When she got up in the morning, Kiska, had died during the night. Quite a shock and totally unexpected. Feel she must have had something going on that was not visible like Cancer or heart problem but other than the heart murmur which the Vet said was slight, she had checked out healthy last year and had really not shown anything to warrant taking her to the Vet.

I also have my Dobe who is 4 in December and Bonnie who is just 10 months old today.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

I built Toby's ramp today. It's a big, bulky, fuggly thing, but he learned to go up and down it after a few tries. It doesn't go up the full flight of steps, but he seems less intimidated by 6 steps than the full 14. Here are a couple of pictures. (After I took these pictures I put some more carpet on the ramp.)


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Great ramp for Toby! Sorry he's having a hard time finding his food in his bowl, sweet old man <3 

Welcome Kyllobernese. Sorry to hear about your Kiska passing so young. I just lost my 9 year old chihuahua unexpectedly from heart failure. It hit her hard and fast, took her in a week's type before I realized anything was even wrong.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I just posted pictures in the general forum - I just adopted Shep's clone, Mikee (1.5yo).

Shep had his final good day on May 31, 2016, eating treats to the end, but not his kibble. Now, that I've adopted Mikee, about a week later (I'd been watching Mikee on Petfinder for about a year.) I can see I was prolonging Shep's life for the last 6 mos, not extending it ... But this probably could not have continued much longer.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

It's so hard to know when to let them go. Goodbye Shep.


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

Sandakat said:


> It's so hard to know when to let them go. Goodbye Shep.


I agree.
For me, it's more getting my head to get my heart to accept the reality of what must be done. 

We all have our favorites on the forum. Shep was one of mine.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Run free, Shep. It's so hard to see when they are going downhill just how bad they were. Once they're gone it's abundantly clear. 

Can't wait to hear more about Mikee!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Thanks! (He was my favorite, too ... ;-) ) I've started posting some Mikee stories in a separate Mikee post.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

These next few days are looking to be like Tucker's last. I've been making sure to get him out for a stroll in the woods each day, but he's getting slower and slower. He has been waking up several times during the night gasping and struggling to breathe like he is choking and it appears he can no longer breathe out of the side of his nose where his (probably) nasal tumor is. Today, his bad eye is producing yellow gunk and he is rubbing it alot and it is more swollen, so pretty positive it is now infected.

I've been down in the dumps all day about it. I know it's best for him, but his mind is still there 100%. Still same Tuck he has always been. While he isn't as fast and nimble and I can let him off leash in the woods without fearing he'll see a deer and disappear for 3 days (which he did not more than 9 months ago!) he still gets up without difficulty, still walks at a slow but decent pace. But I truly do feel he is beginning to suffer more than not. I know it's best to euth a bit early rather than a bit too late, at least IMO, but man, it's hard. 

On top of that, he's technically my mother's dog, and it's hard work getting her to agree that he is suffering. She's more so one to wait until the dog can't stand at all, isn't eating, etc to make the call. She agreed to take him to the vet with me tomorrow, to at least get his infection looked at, and I'm hopeful that the vet will help her see that it's time to let him go.

I'm 20 years old and I got this dog as a 9 year old - it's gonna be very hard.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

So sorry to hear about Tucker. Sometimes, as hard as it is, it's for the best, because they only suffer as each day goes by. Hugs and love to you!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

So sorry about Tucker. I'll be thinking of you. (My avatar was my Tucker)


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## leslieharris779 (May 12, 2016)

Reading all the experiences people have shared in this thread has been of a huge comfort for me. My 12 year old golden has Degenerative Myelopathy and while her back end is still mobile, I can already see the degeneration affecting how she's moving around. It's difficult, for her and for me having to watch her health decline and know there's really nothing I can do about it. I try to get out with her as much as I can while it's still possible, but always making sure that she's okay and not in pain. A little while ago I was looking online in a different forum and someone mentioned using a support harness to help support her hind end, which I guess would be like the step before having to get her a dog wheelchair (which thankfully hasn't happened yet). I did some researching and found the Ortocanis rear support harness and decided to try it. Before getting up the few steps in the front of my house were beginning to be a challenge.. and forget about jumping in and out of the car. The harness lets me help my dog easily with these movements.. now I put in on her anytime we're going out just in case. 

I'm sure I'll be checking back into this forum as time passes and the condition progresses.. Going to need all the support we can get.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Shep was a 15yo Lab mix with nerve problems as well as others. I don't think he had Degenerative Myelopathy, b/c in some breeds (GSD), it progresses quickly. In Shep's case, over the course of 4+ years, he couldn't stand on just his back legs, couldn't go up stairs, couldn't go down stairs safely, developed knuckling and began to stumble during our half hour walks. He didn't seem to be in much pain from the nerve problem or the stumbling, and he simply waited patiently for me to carry him up and down stairs (75lbs), and pick him up when he was lying down or if he fell. I gave him glucosamine for arthritis and gabapentin, in increasing doses. When his partial incontinence started getting worse, and the gabapentin seemed to be 'wearing off' more quickly, I decided that it was time. I didn't want to wait too long, where I'd be prolonging his life rather than extending his time; and I didn't want to be too early. In the end, his mind was still very sharp, his appetite for treats was good, but his body was starting the downhill slope. Very soon after, I adopted another dog, Mikee, who is helping my grieving process to move along. I hope that my summary will help you.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

If the Forum software will let me make two posts, I'll follow-up the end of Shep with an update on Mikee. I brought Mikee home about a week ago. He is a Lab mix, like Shep with some similar genetics - sweet, very smart, alert... but very different background - 1.5 yo; in a rescue kennel for most of his life; not socialized with people; timid; minimal training; never indoors, not independent (velcro). He is gentle, but for the moment I assume that he will run down squirrels, rabbits, and cats, then kill them. I know he will chase all birds and squirrels, and I don't KNOW what he will do, but better to be safe at this stage.

On the other hand, in one week, he has learned voice and gesture for Sit, Down, Bed (go to your place), Come, Shake Left, Shake Right (paw), Fetch, partial loose leash, and limited off leash (with a good recall). None of these with distance or distraction. If I drop the leash, he will circle back. [Shep didn't do this until he was 5yo, after I'd been walking him off leash in protected areas for a few years.] And, he sits [impatiently] at all doors and gates.

I don't trust his [emergency] Bite Inhibition, but he has a soft mouth, and he doesn't seem to bite. But he is scared of ALL new people until introduced ... and barks ferociously at strangers... much better today than a week ago, and maybe socialized in another month. 

He is learning and adapting ... and so am I.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Sidneynicole, I completely understand where you are and I feel so bad for you. I hope you and your mother can agree on what is the best for Tucker.

If it helps, I recently had a conversation with both the breeder who owned Toby's mother and the wonderful woman who trained both of our dogs. I asked them both if I was being selfish or unfair to the dog if I didn't wait until he no longer wanted to eat or was unable to walk. They both vehemently felt that that would be cruel to Toby and not at all selfish on my part. My breeder's philosophy is to "send them off on a good day" and the trainer feels that when the suffering outweighs their enjoyment of life that's the time to let them go, even if they're still walking and eating and alert.

Toby is getting pretty close. He probably has a few weeks at most left. We took him with us on a short RV trip this weekend. On our last trip in April he was able to get in and out of the RV (3 steps) himself. This trip we had to lift him up the steps. He wasn't particularly interested in going on any walks, although he did like going down and wading in the lake. The medication also is no longer holding him through the night. His pacing and scratching at 3am was very obvious in the RV.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sandakat - sorry to hear about Toby's decline ... but I guess that's something to be expected in this specific topic...


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

Ugh. My poor 16 year old, Bear, is looking like he's nearing the end. Last week he got aspiration pneumonia. The first day on antibiotics he felt great! Running around, pulling to his fave tree to pee on, pulling me into the house after work for his dinner. A couple days later and he's slow when he walks, takes 10 mins before he contemplate slowly eating his food, had more 'standing seizures' (which he's had for years but they are more often and stronger) which sometimes makes him fall, and he's lame on a back leg. Brought him back to the vet and the pneumonia looks under control but she thinks the seizures are due to something in the brain and at 16 the likelihood is cancer. He's now on a pain/seizure med (he can't have really good pain mess cause he's still recovering from the pneumonia) and if that doesn't work we could try a stronger seizure med. it's not looking too promising. We're just trying to keep him comfortable until his short time runs out.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

Thanks for the support, everyone. 

MysticRealm, sorry to see you over here on this thread. Hoping Bear has a bit more good time left in him. 

I've been in contact with a vet in Virginia that is comfortable operating on Tucker. We are considering it as a last ditch effort. Since his blood work and xrays have been clear, the hope is that if the vet can remove his eye and see if he can ascertain what is causing all of this in the first place and remove it, Tucker will be okay again. He has slowed down lately, but the vet thinks it could be from a combination of the pain he is in and the meds he is on, not an actual illness. We run the risk of putting him through a surgery that he may not survive, recover from, or finding out that all they can do is remove the eye to remove the source of immediate pain without actually fixing anything. 

The vet in VA is still speaking with his regular vet and the ophthalmologist we saw to construct a plan of action, no firm plans yet. Trying not to get my hopes up while still staying positive.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

No one can know what a dog feels when they get put to sleep. Recently read _A Dog's Purpose_ by Bruce Cameron. Interesting book, written from the perspective of a dog that gets reincarnated several times . . . and gets pts'd three times. In his rendition, the dog feels just a tiny prick, then sleepyness and cessation of pain, then nothing. I hope it's like that. I've been with several dogs when they were euth'd . . . it sure seemed peaceful.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

sandgrubber said:


> No one can know what a dog feels when they get put to sleep. Recently read _A Dog's Purpose_ by Bruce Cameron. Interesting book, written from the perspective of a dog that gets reincarnated several times . . . and gets pts'd three times. In his rendition, the dog feels just a tiny prick, then sleepyness and cessation of pain, then nothing. I hope it's like that. I've been with several dogs when they were euth'd . . . it sure seemed peaceful.


I read that book too, a while ago. I remember liking it a lot, and crying a lot lol. I agree that the times I've been with a dog being put to sleep, it's always been very calm and peaceful. Definitely seems harder on the humans than the dog. The vet even sedates the dog before actually stopping the heart.

If anyone here has ever seen a horse euthanized - it is no where near as peaceful looking and pretty dangerous and traumatic (at least for the humans involved), though I do hope the horse doesn't feel much of it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The way they're doing it now, with the sedation first, is sorta new (some vets were doing it before but now it's actually the recommended procedure). My mom saw a dog pts without sedation and was slightly traumatized (it wasn't awful, just. . .abrupt?). She very much prefers the sedation method.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

MysticRealm, I'm so sorry you guys are going through this. Hugs to you and Bear!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I had no significant problem with the mechanical process of Euth that Shep went through. They sedated him, and he was clearly calm and relaxed, and maybe out of it, not reacting to me, but breathing peacefully. I didn't like the sedation shot, b/c it did hurt for a moment... it was NOT a problem, but most shots didn't hurt Shep. Then they shaved his leg and gave the final dose, and he very peacefully breathed more slowly and ceased. Except for breathing the transition appeared gradual and gentle.

Conceptually, I don't like euth ... and I don't think anyone does. Shep's mind was sharp, but his body was failing. I don't think he was suffering, but he had clearly started the downhill decline. And at 15.5yo, with cancer, arthritis, and nerve degeneration, he wasn't going to recover. ... I'd prefer a brain transplant to euth ... maybe mañana ....


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

We helped Tucker cross the bridge yesterday evening. He went peacefully with a belly full of hamburger and toilet water after his final walk around the block, and ate probably a whole cup of peanutbutter while at the vet.

I'm having a very hard time not feeling terrible about it. It's so frustrating that he was doing so well, still hiking with me and getting around just fine, but he was in pain. I know it was the right thing to do, my only consolation.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I haven't been here in ages. Sorry about the problems so are having and the losses others have had. I know dogs don't have human feelings and we talk about them not doing things out of spite and the like, but I do believe dogs have dignity. I think that is one important aspect when we decide if it is time. 

All has been going well with Gus. I had a facebook memory show up that we just had the anniversary of his second bout of pneumonia. Keeping my fingers crossed that it is his last.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

[I am hanksimon stuck in Password hyperspace] 

Sorry to hear about Tucker, glad he had a good meal. One of the best decisions I made was to adopt Mikee, who has helped me drag me through the grieving process ...


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

sidneynicole, I'm sorry to hear about Tucker. Such a hard decision...


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

hanksimon said:


> [I am hanksimon stuck in Password hyperspace]
> 
> Sorry to hear about Tucker, glad he had a good meal. One of the best decisions I made was to adopt Mikee, who has helped me drag me through the grieving process ...


I agree, I don't think I could make it through losing a dog without another to help cheer me up. My fiance and I for a while thought we'd only have one dog, but after this it confirmed that we always need at least two. 



Sandakat said:


> sidneynicole, I'm sorry to hear about Tucker. Such a hard decision...


Thank you. Very hard decision indeed. Even though I know it was the right one, for Tuck, I can't help the 'what ifs...' that run through my brain each day. By far the worst and hardest part of owning dogs.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Toby is really declining again after being stable for a bit. He can't go up and down the ramp without help any more. When I first put it up, a month ago, he could go up and down it easily. He's also had a few very bad nights where he paces and pants despite the Tramadol. Last night was so bad that we gave him an extra 50mg so he could rest. He's been panting a LOT. Some of it is the temperature outside, but any exertion makes him pant excessively. 

I think the worst of it is that he doesn't seem to be interested in doing anything. He'll give a few barks when he sees a deer, but otherwise he just sleeps. If I take him out he pees and poops and then just wants to come back upstairs. I think he's checking out. It's such a chore to do anything: lie down, get up, eat, go out, etc. that he's giving up.

Last night we thought we might have to put him to sleep today. Luckily he was better this morning. But we're down to day to day from week to week.

I don't think I've ever cried over anybody or anything like I have over this dog.


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

Sandakat, I understand completely what you are going through and
my heart goes out to you. 
Hugs


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I am very sorry to hear about Toby. It makes me cry just to hear what y'all are going through. It reminds me of what I went through with Shep, and it was so difficult.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

So sorry about Toby.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

Sandakat, I'm so sorry about Toby. I know what you mean about the crying. I did that with my last dog. I'm hoping you have some special days together before you need to make a decision.

Gus is starting again with another bout of pneumonia. He had been doing a different cough for a couple of days that I was keeping an eye on. This afternoon, I can see his breathing is getting labored. I just gave him his antibiotics and nebulized him. His temp is normal but his respiration is faster as he's trying to get more oxygen. Hopefully I'm catching it early enough. Hopefully I'm catching it early enough. Of course it's on a holiday. I'm hoping it doesn't get worse and I can run him to the vet tomorrow. I should ask them about being able to keep an injectible antibiotic at home that I can give him.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Keeping my fingers crossed for Gus. We went through repeated bouts of pneumonia with Cameron. It's miserable to watch them struggle to breathe. You do your best and just keep hoping they'll get better...


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

We put Toby down this afternoon. Life had just become too much of a struggle for him. We couldn't make him go through it anymore.

It was the right thing to do but it hurts so much.


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

So sorry Sandakat. You gave Toby a special life. I'm sending you a virtual box of tissues.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

So sorry, Sandakat. I have no doubts that you did the right thing, or that he had an amazing life. Run free, Toby.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Very sorry to hear about Toby. I know it hurts, and we're here to help, or just to listen...


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Really sorry to hear about Toby 

---
Bobb's front nub isn't doing well. A while ago (maybe 6 weeks?) he got trampled under Denali and Kaytu when they all ran to greet me. He was on Rimadyl for a few weeks, and seemed to be doing well again for a couple weeks. Then two weeks ago in the span of a week he spontaneously jumped off my lap. Twice. The night of the 4th he woke up in the middle of the night screaming and holding his nub out. It's been painful ever since. With the injuries I haven't been able to do his normal stretches so his back is a mess again and the jumps off my lap certainly didn't help. He had acu, massage, manual therapy, laser, stretching. Seemed a little better. This past week I've been able to do a little more with him, but his nub is still hurting him bad. Repeat therapy visit today. We're getting xrays of his nub this Thursday at our new vet- we moved and old vet is now 30+ minutes away.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm sorry, Sandakat.


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

Awww...Sandakat. So sorry.


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## Sandakat (Mar 7, 2015)

Thank you everyone. You guys really do help.

Sibe, I hope Bobb starts to feel better!


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I am so sorry Sandakat.


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