# The Schutzhund / Ring Sports Thread



## packetsmom

I'm not sure how many people will find this interesting or if anyone else will jump in, but I figured it might be nice to have a thread for this sport as well. Please feel free to join in even if you just have a passing interest in these, whether or not you are training in them.


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## packetsmom

Sam and I have our first tracking practice on Saturday. I'm excited and nervous, but realistically, I'm mostly expecting to work on helping him get used to the environment, the new people, and dogs, and making it fun so that he'll start to connect going to these practices as a fun thing.

Beyond that, we've stopped playing tug for the most part since he has begun teething. We are working on engagement with food and playing a game to start getting him ready to learn the "out" and build the foundation for retrieves. He is pretty possessive of his tugs and will try to play keep away with them to get us to chase him. This game came from my Schutzhund book, "Schutzhund Obedience: Training in Drive" by Sheila Booth. It involves 2 tugs. You show both tugs to the dog, then tease him with one until he is excited to play with it. You toss that tug and let him get it, then bring out the second one and tease him with that. When he drops the first tug, you toss the second and then get the first and repeat. Eventually the dog learns that letting go of one tug means he will get the other.

Beyond that, I've backed off working on basic commands to focus on eye contact and treating him for eye contact that he gives without any prompting. I do this on our walks and hikes as well as just around the house and it's really helping his engagement! I've finished 2 of my Michael Ellis videos (training with food and tug) and I ordered his video on focused heeling to watch next week.

Good times!


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## elrohwen

I know very little about Schutzhund and less about other ring sports. Can anyone explain the differences between the different types?


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## packetsmom

I'm a complete newb, so please take everything I say with a huge salt lick. Below are the differences, as I understand them.

*Schutzhund/IPO* - Originally developed as a breed test for the GSD, later expanded to allow other breeds to complete. Emphasis is on 3 different areas, obedience, protection, and tracking. Dogs bite a sleeve exclusively in protection, not any other part of the body. Developed in Germany, but now more widespread that other protection sports. We only have Schutzhund up here.

*Mondioring* - Trials are less "rote" or "structured" with scenarios made up by judges to test the dog's ability to perform protection work with distractions in a variety of scenarios. Designed to give a more "level playing field" for competitors from various backgrounds. Dogs from other protection sports are allowed to enter mondio trials at the level they have achieved in their own sport. Tries to combine the best aspects of all the protection sports and allow dogs and handlers from all the sports to compete with each other.

*French Ring* - Protection sport developed in France. The decoy or "helper" is dressed in a bite suit and the dogs will bite anywhere on the suit. Trials, like mondioring, are not as regimented as Schutzhund trials. The dog can heel on either side, for example. Dogs compete in agility, obedience, and protection, with no tracking component. Some consider this a more intense protection sport while Schutzhund may be more intense on obedience. More differences here.

*KNPV* - Dutch ring sport, more similar to French ring in that the decoy wears a bite suit and dogs can bite anywhere on the suit. KNPV includes object guarding whereas ScH revolves around the dog being taught to guard the handler. Also does not include tracking, but does have a separate tracking certification.

*PSA* - American developed protection sport that seeks to mimic as closely as possible k9 police unit training. Involves full bite suit training and realistic, complex scenarios to be as much like real life k9 unit work as possible. Does not include tracking, but does have both obedience and protection portions.

Note - The names on each of these are clickable, most going to the association that has clubs/trials for each sport in the US. There are 2 such organizations for ScH in the US...I just linked to the one I am familiar with.


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## Emily1188

AWESOME THREAD. :rockon:

Fun fact: KNPV is also a certification process for police dogs in Holland as well being a sport. 

I train my Malinois for PSA right now; it is a relatively new, American-developed sport. It is a suit sport with obedience and protection portions. There is a lot of social and environmental pressure on the dogs, and there are varying scenarios at trials. They do some crazy, fun stuff like car-jacking scenarios. I did not actually intend to get into PSA specifically but started training with my club, and I really like them, love our TD and other decoy, and I'm very happy with the quality of the training. Since PSA is what they do, it's what I'm doing. I was not really looking to be picky with what bite sport I chose except for no Schutzhund because I don't want to do tracking - LOL!

We began training at the beginning of March of this year; Blossom is now moving from the hard sleeve to the suit jacket. Most of our work is focused on maintaining a deep, full grip on the jacket, since it's softer material and easier to bite shallow on. Luckily she has a natural deep grip so this is not too difficult. 

We also are working on obedience for bites and control around the decoy in general, as she runs hot and spins up very quickly. That's going pretty well but it took a lot of work at home doing stuff like setting her tug on the ground and asking her to heel around it, and lots of impulse control in general. What's cool is that her OB around the decoy is some of her best work, because she understands that obedience = bite and she gives me her all. 

We also continue to layer in more pressure from the decoy and make her feel invincible.

I have been really lucky and could not ask for a better partner that my little Mali girl from the pound.  She has been a joy to train and continues to progress faster in the work than I have any right to hope for.


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## packetsmom

I didn't know about PSA. I'll try to find some links and add it to the post above. 

I also really like that you gave some details about why you like the sport and what kinds of things you get to do. The carjacking scenario sounds really neat!

I like Schutzhund, I think, partially because I like the more regimented obedience style and because I really don't mind the idea of the dog only being driven to bite the sleeve. I'm interested in it purely as a sport and don't really care if my dog never has any "civil drive" (the drive to do real protection work). So, the problems that some Schutzhund dogs have where they won't go after anything but the sleeve...don't really concern me much.


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## Emily1188

packetsmom said:


> I like Schutzhund, I think, partially because I like the more regimented obedience style and because I really don't mind the idea of the dog only being driven to bite the sleeve. I'm interested in it purely as a sport and don't really care if my dog never has any "civil drive" (the drive to do real protection work). So, the problems that some Schutzhund dogs have where they won't go after anything but the sleeve...don't really concern me much.


Yeah, I likewise am first and foremost in it for the "sport" side of things and don't need a real-life protection dog. When we began training, Blossom was extremely equipment-focused and frankly I didn't (still don't) really care. However, very recently (last week) she has decided to focus on the man the little more, which is very interesting. I would not call her a civil or defensive dog, just very high prey drive and loves the grip/fight. Since we've put her on the jacket, I think she has begun to see that the whole human being is part of the prey/fight equation. She now lights up on an equipment-less decoy when I give the command, and recently we had a little...uh... spacial mix up at training, and she offered pretty sincerely to bite the decoy with no equipment (nothing happened, I tightened the leash and he jumped out of range - and laughed about it, because guys who sign up to get bit by dogs are crazy like that, lol). Our TD did tell me that putting her on the jacket could change her equipment focus and it seems it has. Nasty girl. LOL. It interests me because from what I had read about bitework, people make it seem like a "serious" dog is always working with some level defense. My dog is very prey driven and not at all defensive, but she is certainly getting more "serious" about how she perceives the work. She does not think she is necessarily fighting to defend herself, but she also doesn't think she's just playing tug anymore. Anyway, I'm really just rambling, sorry. Talking about equipment focus just got me going LOL!

I like SCH a lot and think it needs to be credited with really moving forward with obedience, welcoming more positive methods and creating some really beautiful obedience routines. I know people criticize it for being "too sporty" but they have really brought a lot of progress into bitesports as far as obedience is concerned, at least IMO. I just don't wanna do it because... tracking. LOL And getting up early to do tracking.


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## MrsBoats

I'm going to watch this thread because I'm intrigued by Schutzhund. I would totally go for it with the boys if time and money wasn't a limited factor...stupid day job getting in my way. :/


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## packetsmom

The type of training for ScH seems to vary widely by club, but I think the overall trend is far more toward the positive end and corrections are being much more carefully applied. Of the three clubs I looked at here, the "toughest" of the three still did marker training with a word instead of a clicker and rewards, although I did see prong and e-collars more in use there. The one I'm with now uses clickers with both puppies and adult dogs for teaching new behaviors and no corrections are even considered unless and until a dog clearly has demonstrated that they know the behavior. Not even the hardcore club here would do any of the things you see CM do on tv or use aversives with a puppy. Most of the corrections I've seen applied to adult dogs are with dogs that are competing at higher levels and it is primarily to get the dogs attention when they are full-on in drive.

I know what you mean about getting carried away with talking about the details.  I was just explaining equipment bias to my husband the other night when explaining why we need several different types of tugs made of different materials. I'm not so worried about it as it pertains to the decoy, but I don't want to have to stress out about finding just the "right" replacement tug if Sam were to get stuck on one material. LOL!


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## packetsmom

So...Sam and I had our first day of ScH training and it was a big one! We did a full tracking practice followed by a couple of hours of obedience and protection. Sam did great and we both had a great time!

I don't know how different this is from any other training clubs, but ScH dogs are generally worked only one or a small few at a time. The rest of the club watches or helps with the training when it isn't their Doug's turn. I'm finding that I'm learning a lot from watching other people work with their dogs as well as from the advice I get while I work with Sam.

Sam did two "puppy tracks" today. They showed me how to lay them as well as how to teach him how to follow the tracks. We used allpositive reinforcement with him all day, but they said it is particularly important not to give corrections in tracking since you are so dependent on the dog wanting to track. We used small pieces of hot dog in the two of each step with "jackpots" of hotdogs on a scent pad (a square of tamped down grass at the beginning and end of each track. Sam really got into it and wanted to keep going and find more at the end of each track. It was fascinating learning more about police tracking and search and rescue tracking from some of the members who have done those.

For obedience, I just wanted him to get used to being around the dogs and people but focusing on me, so I sat in the grass with him in a down and treated him for looking at me. He is becoming MUCH calmer around strange dogs and people! By the time we got to protection, (Just playing tug for the puppies), he was tired and didn't have his usual excitement for it. He only got riled up a couple of times, but I could tell he was just worn out from such a big day!

I really like the club so far. People have been friendly and helpful and I feel like they want us there. Everyone seems quite enamored with Sam and excited to see how he does.


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## packetsmom

Just thought I'd share this. I've never wanted a chihuahua before, but after seeing this little guy...I SO want him! 

Ludvig the Famous Chihuahua doing Schutzhund


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## packetsmom

So tonight, we did obedience and protection. It was really hot for AK, but Sam did well. During obedience, I again worked on engagement with him and getting him used to the environment. Then, he went in the puppy circle for protection.

The puppy circle is all the puppies on long lines held by their handlers in a circle around one of the helpers (the bad guy!). Each handler keeps their dog at a distance where they have plenty of slack, but can't reach the helper or the other puppies. Then, the helper teases the dogs with tugs or bite pillows or a sleeve, getting them all riled up and barking. Once they engage him, he tries to get them to bite the toy with a good bite and tugs with them. When he gets a really good bite on the toy, he lets go and the dog gets to run back to their crate with the toy, winning.

The first time, Sam was just not really into it. He was hot and tired and distracted by the other pups. This time, despite loosing two baby teeth over the weekend, he was more eager and played better. 

We have just our own training until tracking again on Saturday.


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## mashlee08

Totally jealous, in my area of Australia, you aren't allowed to do any sort of bite work sports. Your dog is not allowed on any ANKC affiliated grounds "if you have taught your dog to bite" grrrr.


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## RedGermanPinscher

packetsmom said:


> Just thought I'd share this. I've never wanted a chihuahua before, but after seeing this little guy...I SO want him!
> 
> Ludvig the Famous Chihuahua doing Schutzhund


Just goes to show, size really doesn't matter.... A Dog is a dog regardless of the package it comes in... If the drive is there it can be taught....
Kudos to his owner for breaking the mold...


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## packetsmom

mashlee08 said:


> Totally jealous, in my area of Australia, you aren't allowed to do any sort of bite work sports. Your dog is not allowed on any ANKC affiliated grounds "if you have taught your dog to bite" grrrr.


I think this is worth mentioning for anyone who is curious about Schutzhund or other ring sports. It can limit what you can do with your dog in other ways or have unintended consequences...

*If you train your dog in ScH/IPO or other bitework sports:*
1. You will not be able to train your dog as a therapy dog or service dog, particularly a PTSD dog. The two are incompatible since these sports train a dog to protect the handler when there is a threat. You do not want a therapy dog or service dog to try to protect the handler in that way.
2. Most search and rescue organizations will not let you volunteer with your dog if it is trained in one of these sports. The reason being that once the dog finds the person they are searching for, if that person were to react in a hostile or unexpected manner, the dog might go in for a bite.
3. Some organizations will not allow handlers who have trained dogs in protection sports to work with them. This may be because of a bias or it might be because they are afraid the handler will unintentionally bring out drive in dogs.
4. Some insurance companies will not provide homeowner's insurance to you if your dog has been titled in a protection sport. Check with your insurance company before you start training or when you shop for homeowner's insurance.
5. Some places will not rent to you if you have a dog trained in one of these sports, however, in most cases, these are places that would not rent to most of the breeds involved in these sports in the first place.
6. You will always have to be aware of your dog and carefully watching for signs that the dog is reacting to someone in the way it was trained. This could be something as simple as the dog being confused about a cast looking like a bite sleeve or a person who looks like the helper you usually work with or who is wearing something the helper always wears.
7. This is likely true of all dog sports, but training your dog in ScH may make trialing in other sports more challenging in some ways because the dog may get mixed up between the different sports. This is true of a tracking dog that was trying to train for a search and rescue title at the same time as training for a tracking title in ScH. The two were similar enough that the dog became confused in both.

I'm sure there are other possibilities. Just good to know before you get started!


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## packetsmom

mashlee08 said:


> Totally jealous, in my area of Australia, you aren't allowed to do any sort of bite work sports. Your dog is not allowed on any ANKC affiliated grounds "if you have taught your dog to bite" grrrr.


The interesting part about this is that, in theory, no one teaches a dog to bite. They already know how. We teach a dog when to bite. Arguably, a really well trained IPO dog should be less likely to bite someone without provocation or command.


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## elrohwen

packetsmom said:


> The interesting part about this is that, in theory, no one teaches a dog to bite. They already know how. We teach a dog when to bite. Arguably, a really well trained IPO dog should be less likely to bite someone without provocation or command.


Theoretically yes. But you are taking a dog who likes to bite, and building up the reinforcement for biting. 

Watson likes to bite, but I work to stop him from biting. I don't use biting people as a reward for things, because it's not something I want him to continue doing.

When you turn it into a high level reinforcement, you run the risk of a dog self-rewarding, or just momentarily being so excited that he does it inappropriately. 

Of course, a super well trained dog shouldn't bite except on cue, but then Watson is only supposed to jump up on people on cue, but when he gets excited, all bets are off ;-) A partially trained protection dog is more dangerous, IMO, than a fully trained dog, or one not trained for bite work at all. I think that's where the risk is.


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## packetsmom

I agree, it's the poorly trained dogs that are more dangerous. There is a middle ground there where you have to be very careful. Another handler has an ScH2 dog who is reaching maturity and has exhibited some random growling at people. They are taking this VERY seriously. He hasn't snapped at anyone, but even just that growling from a dog halfway through training is cause for them to be looking at everything to do with him and managing him very carefully.

By contrast, it seems that most dogs develop even better bite inhibition because they spend so much time learning how to properly target and bite only in one specific place. They also learn that missing that area will result in no bite, so they become very careful about where they are biting even in drive. I also think there is a big difference between a dog trained for IPO as a sport and dogs trained for real personal protection. Many Schutzhund dogs lack protection drive off the field and won't bite if there is no sleeve visible. Some handlers see this as a bad thing and work with hidden sleeves to try to train their dogs to overcome that, but I see it as a positive since I'm only doing this as a sport.

Heck...I don't even know if Sam will have it in him to do the protection portions...he's deep in teething and last night was pretty low drive in the puppy circle. He's a sweetie, though, so even if we do only do obedience and tracking, I'm still super-proud of him!


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## elrohwen

I'm with you that I would rather have a dog who only bites a sleeve. Much less liability, IMO. Even a partially trained unpredictable adolescent will be much less likely to bite someone randomly if he has never been reinforced for biting off of the sleeve. It's basically a game of tug - if the dog understands he can only bite the tug toy, he's not going to suddenly go for somebody's hand out of the blue.


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## Emily1188

elrohwen said:


> Theoretically yes. But you are taking a dog who likes to bite, and building up the reinforcement for biting.
> 
> Watson likes to bite, but I work to stop him from biting. I don't use biting people as a reward for things, because it's not something I want him to continue doing.
> 
> When you turn it into a high level reinforcement, you run the risk of a dog self-rewarding, or just momentarily being so excited that he does it inappropriately.
> 
> Of course, a super well trained dog shouldn't bite except on cue, but then Watson is only supposed to jump up on people on cue, but when he gets excited, all bets are off ;-) A partially trained protection dog is more dangerous, IMO, than a fully trained dog, or one not trained for bite work at all. I think that's where the risk is.


I suppose I can see how you came with this idea, but there are a lot of misconceptions in this post. My "adolescent" and "partially trained protection dog" is not about to bite someone standing in front of her for fun because she got too excited and forgot herself. 

What you have to understand is that are enormous environmental cues that tell the dog "We're doing this bitey thing now." The decoy's attire, his "weapons," the gear the dog is wearing, and the entire scenario are a large part of what turns the dog "on." Without those cues, most dogs do not have any reason to believe that they're about to work. You're assuming a green dog will be willing to view random, equipment-less people as decoys. Unless the dog is naturally a very civil dog (which is a part of the dog regardless of training), that just simply isn't true. My dog thinks the decoy is the best reward in the world, it's true, but she certainly doesn't think just anybody is a decoy. Again, she takes in the ample cues from the scenario we're in. She does not and has never offered to bite myself (beyond mouthing, which believe it or not, has not in anyway increased because of bitework) or others just because she was so excited she wanted her reward and figured "Why not bite this dude?" She's far more likely to look for a tug or a ball, in fact, because no decoy is present. She's also aggressive towards strangers entering the home and around the car, and has been that way since the day I got her. Bitework has not altered or increased that at all, because it was in her to begin with. 

If I'm walking her in the park, and you come towards her in a puffy jacket, make direct eye contact, and crack a whip, she would probably turn "on" and happily bite you. Other than that, you're pretty safe. Even if she's amped up sky high in prey drive, she does not look for random people to bite. I honestly do not think if I gave her the cue to fire up that she would react to a random dude in the middle of the street like she does when she knows she's working. She would have to be proofed extensively to that point, I would not do such proofing (if I ever had the desire to) until I have excellent control.

I almost don't know what else to say except... it just doesn't work out that way, lol. Like I said, I can sort of see how you came up with that theory but IRL it doesn't pan out. The vast majority of bite-trained dogs need to be "fired up" before they start looking for someone to bite. They do not just go, "Weeeee I'm amped, gimme an arm!!!" My dog is not even very equipment focused anymore, _when working_, but she still requires environmental cues from the decoy to think she's about to work. And even _then_, around the decoy, I have enough control of her (adolescent and partially trained though she is) that she does not fire up without my command. 

I think am going to step back now. I realize you did not mean anything personal by it, but it's concerning to me that someone with no experience in the work is essentially labeling my dog as a liability, because she bites a suit jacket instead of a sleeve (from what I can gather)? 

Everyone here might be curious to know though, that Blossom targets the upper arm on a suit jacket, but can also be worked on a sleeve and can be trusted to "go clean" (not aim for anything than the sleeve) when doing so. Things are not always as simple as they seem.


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## packetsmom

Emily1188 - I think you just eexplained really well the difference between a dog trained for bite sports vs. A dog trained for "real" personal protection.


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## Emily1188

packetsmom said:


> Emily1188 - I think you just eexplained really well the difference between a dog trained for bite sports vs. A dog trained for "real" personal protection.


Yeah, a true, well-trained personal protection dogs take A LOT of proofing to be effective in most cases. There's a dog in our club, a well-trained dog owned by a Chicago police officer (not a K9, just a personal dog) and his GF. The dog is kind of an SOB, definitely has some real aggression in him and very hard-headed. A powerful dog.

Well, his female owner was leaving training with him one night and a guy started harassing her outside her car. Kaiser sat in the car and "stared like a dumbass" to quote his owner. Didn't even fire up or bark. They spent the next several sessions working him on the street and in/around the car, to teach him that this was a place where he might need to do his job - a place where he might need to be "on." 

Honestly, when I walk Blossom in the park, she's like, HERP DERP TENNIS BALL SQUIRREL!!! She's not looking to self-reward by latching onto somebody. 

It's simply not the case that most bitework trained dogs look for opportunities to self-reward by biting people. Even the ones who are taught to work "on the streets" and "in real life."


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## xoxluvablexox

packetsmom said:


> Just thought I'd share this. I've never wanted a chihuahua before, but after seeing this little guy...I SO want him!
> 
> Ludvig the Famous Chihuahua doing Schutzhund


That is seriously the cutest thing I've seen all day. I was smiling and laughing the whole time I watched it. 

I'm thinking my 15 lb poodle could definitely handle doing that. I wouldn't have even thought about such a thing before now. Too cute, really.


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## elrohwen

I was more playing devils advocate for why groups would not be thrilled to have personal protection dogs in therapy situations, etc. Maybe it's not accurate, but I kind of see the point. 

I was also disagreeing that a bitework trained dog will be automatically less likely to bite someone. Maybe it works that way, especially with a very well trained dog, but in a green dog I don't see how that holds up. That dog can get annoyed or nervous and bite someone just like any other. I don't really believe, at least without further evidence, that they are actually more safe than any other dog. 

I think the sleeve is the key difference, at least from what I see. A dog who targets a sleeve like a tug toy is not really a risk. A dog really trained for personal protection may very well be a liability in the wrong hands. I can see why organizations wouldn't understand the difference. 

Also, thanks for your explanations! I'm learning a lot about a sport I don't have experience with or see people doing. I'm sorry if you took it personally at all. I supposed it just shows how even a semi-knowledgable dog person can see why others would consider a bite trained dog to be a liability. I guess more than other sports, it requires that the handler and trainer know what they are doing, and I guess I see a lot of people who have no idea what they're doing with dogs.


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## packetsmom

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with bite sports trained dogs not being allowed as therapy or service dogs, actually. I think the two missions are incompatible and it's unfair to place a dog in that kind of conflicted position. I also see the liability side involved in the other restrictions placed on dogs with this kind of training.

I do see Emily's point, though, about the real risks of these dogs in normal, everyday situations that any pet dog would encounter, which even with the intermediate dogs is often exaggerated by people outside the sport. Outside the field or ring? Most of these dogs are family pets and act just like any other pet dog. Even sports that use bite suits usually have suits that look pretty different from regular clothes or other cues the dog comes to expect that tell them it's time to work. It's actually pretty unrealistic to expect the majority of bite sport trained dogs to protect you in a real life situation any more than a similar dog without that training.

That being said, most people I know who train in this do keep careful track of their dogs. I heard one handler telling a story about one of her dogs, one I'd considered well-trained and who is working on his Schutzhund 3 title. He was riding loose in her van because it was hot and her A/C doesn't reach as well into the back where his crate is. She went to pick up a teenaged friend of her son, who happened to be wearing a hoodie. The dog, when he saw the boy, gave his alert bark and she recognized it and immediately leashed him, the crated him. After thinking a while, she realized that the helper is about the only person the dog regularly sees wearing a hoodie and the helper is about the same size as the teenaged boy. Back home, she asked the boy to take off his hoodie and the took her dog out on leash and the dog happily greeted him with licks and tail wags. She told the club and the helper is mixing up his wardrobe more and non-helpers are encouraged to wear hoodies and pet the dogs. Lol!

I couldn't help but think that regular dog owners often face similar situations of needing to socialize a dog to people wearing hats and beards and such. At least this dog was trained to give an alert bark, so the owner was aware he was confused and thinking it was play time.


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## elrohwen

Emily1188 said:


> It's simply not the case that most bitework trained dogs look for opportunities to self-reward by biting people. Even the ones who are taught to work "on the streets" and "in real life."


And if you read my initial post you will see that I never even implied such a thing. I only said you are increasing risk and I still think that. No, a Sch trained dog is not going to attack grandma walking down the street, but you can't say that tapping into this drive and making this behavior even more reinforcing isn't a risk on some level. It's only going to be a problem with a trainer who is terrible or irresponsible, or with a dog who does not have a stable temperament, or whatever. As packetsmom illustrated, the owners of dogs trained for these sports often have to be extra careful and attentive to their dogs which to me says there is a tiny bit of risk there. Maybe the risk is just in having a dog with this type of drive, and not whether you train it for bitework at all, I don't know, but I think you read much more into my post than what was there. I'm sure with a responsible and attentive owner, and dog of stable temperament the risk is close to zero, but I can still understand why risk averse organizations would be wary.


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## Emily1188

elrohwen said:


> And if you read my initial post you will see that I never even implied such a thing. I only said you are increasing risk and I stand behind that. No, a Sch trained dog is not going to attack grandma walking down the street, but you can't say that tapping into this drive and making this behavior even more reinforcing isn't a risk on some level. It's only going to be a problem with a trainer who is terrible or irresponsible, or with a dog who does not have a stable temperament, or whatever. As packetsmom illustrated, the owners of dogs trained for these sports often have to be careful and attentive to them which to me says there is a tiny bit of risk there. I think you read much more into my post than what was there.


I did not read anything other than what you wrote. I read that I have reinforced biting and made it self-rewarding, therefore I have increased the likelihood my dog will seek out biting to self-reinforce. Then you compared it to your spaniel jumping up because he wants to, even though he's only supposed to do it on cue. I find both statements inaccurate and the analogy to jumping up silly, and I think I already illustrated why. You also did not state in your initial post that you were describing irresponsible training or dogs with "unstable" temperaments. (I am not being snotty with the quotes, I just don't know how you define "unstable" so I'm simply echoing your phrasing in this case.) If we're merely discussing bad training, well... bad training is bad training, and has bad results. But there was no clarification of that initially and you spoke in broad terms regarding protection trained dogs. 

In general, the type of dog that excels at protection sport requires good management skills and a healthy dose of caution to own successfully. That is true of my dog, but has been the case long before we began bitework. If one cannot do that, one should not own a high drive dog suitable to protection sports, regardless of training. It is true that any kind of training can potentially "leak" into other scenarios, but if you think that protection work is going "leak" out into real life in a manner that's at all comparable to a dog jumping on someone to self-reward, I cannot agree and do not find that belief to accurately reflect my experiences or the experiences of others who are much more knowledgable than I am. I do not thinking you are understanding what cues and triggers the dogs to "fire up" in bitework.

Protection sport training is intensely complicated and difficult to understand without participating or observing firsthand. I went into it with a far better theoretical understanding than most newbies, I think, and I am still constantly learning. As I said before, it is not simple and all is not what it may seem like if you're looking from the outside in.


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## elrohwen

Emily1188 said:


> In general, the type of dog that excels at protection sport requires good management skills and a healthy dose of caution to own successfully. That is true of my dog, but has been the case long before we began bitework. If one cannot do that, one should not own a high drive dog suitable to protection sports, regardless of training. It is true that any kind of training can potentially "leak" into other scenarios, but if you think that protection work is going "leak" out into real life in a manner that's at all comparable to a dog jumping on someone to self-reward, I cannot agree and do not find that belief to accurately reflect my experiences or the experiences of others who are much more knowledgable than I am. I do not thinking you are understanding what cues and triggers the dogs to "fire up" in bitework


Alright, so it was a bad analogy. I couldn't think of anything else applicable at the time. My point still stands that there is a risk there. Maybe most of the risk is just in owning a dog who excels that type of activity, and not necessarily the training. But either way, I don't think it's accurate to say that a Sch trained dog is less likely to bite than other dogs, or more likely to have an inhibited bite, and that they shouldn't be regarded as slightly more risky by organizations who are calculating the risk of allowing the dog.

I don't think the training is simplistic, and I don't think that that a Sch trained dog is going to run around biting people. I just said that I think there is going to be more risk with that type of dog, or a dog trained like that. Especially if the owner is not responsible or a particularly good trainer. If someone is a horrible trainer for agility, or hunting, it's not going to result in someone being bitten. But training a dog to bite people, whether for personal protection or a sport, could be done incorrectly or the dog could somehow make the wrong decision in a tense situation. There is more risk involved in owning lots of types of dogs. For some dogs, the risk is dog aggression. I took on risk by owning a hunting dog and having rabbits in the house, but therapy organizations and other dog clubs aren't concerned with that. They are concerned with a dog trained to bite humans, no matter how unlikely it is to occur outside of the training or trial situation.

ETA: I didn't mean this to turn into a huge thing, or making it look like I'm bashing Sch or IPO or whatever. I'm actually interested in these sports and learning more about them. I was just responding to packetsmom's comment about how a well trained Sch dog would be less likely to bite someone without a command. While I don't necessarily disagree about the well trained part, I wanted to make the point about the poorly or less well trained dog, and why organizations, like the ANKC, may make the rules that they do. I'm not saying I even agree with the rule, but I do agree there is some risk there in owning and working with a dog trained for protection or protection sports. That's all. I feel like no matter what I say, you will take it personally in a way that it's not meant, so I should probably just bow out of this thread. 

Packetsmom, sorry for derailing your thread! I look forward to your stories of the training you do with Sam.


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## Emily1188

elrohwen said:


> Maybe most of the risk is just in owning a dog who excels that type of activity, and not necessarily the training. But either way, I don't think it's accurate to say that a Sch trained dog is less likely to bite than other dogs, or more likely to have an inhibited bite, and that they shouldn't be regarded as slightly more risky by organizations who are calculating the risk of allowing the dog.
> 
> I don't think the training is simplistic, and I don't think that that a Sch trained dog is going to run around biting people. I just said that I think there is going to be more risk with that type of dog, or a dog trained like that. Especially if the owner is not responsible or a particularly good trainer. If someone is a horrible trainer for agility, or hunting, it's not going to result in someone being bitten. But training a dog to bite people, whether for personal protection or a sport, could be done incorrectly or the dog could somehow make the wrong decision in a tense situation. There is more risk involved in owning lots of types of dogs. For some dogs, the risk is dog aggression. I took on risk by owning a hunting dog and having rabbits in the house, but therapy organizations and other dog clubs aren't concerned with that. They are concerned with a dog trained to bite humans, no matter how unlikely it is to occur outside of the training or trial situation.


Aw HELL, well now I think we've been talking past each other this whole time, LOL. I tend to agree with this last post and I honestly can't take issue with TD groups that don't "do" protection trained dogs. Even if only because should a bite trained dog hurt someone, the liability on the organization would be enormous, regardless of how or why the dog bit. My apologies. I am totally sure there are plenty of dogs who could safely do both, but I don't blame organizations for having the rules they do. 

And yeah, actually, I don't necessarily agree that a bitework trained dog is "less" likely to bite. It's more that the handler is more aware than most and the dog has the behavior under stronger stimulus control than most. But as I said (and you did as well), the type of dog that is successful in such sports is successful because they do enjoy the work and are unlikely to be well-suited to therapy dog work. They are ultimately fairly opposite goals, as you said.

I was getting hung up on the analogy, imagining a dog exhibiting bitework behaviors in the same way an excited dog jumps up and I do apologize for that.

ETA: Nevermind, no point.


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## elrohwen

Ok, so hugs and make up? :-D

I clearly just wasn't explaining myself well and my bad analogy came back to bite me. I swear I'm not a mean Schutzhund hater. I was just trying to think of some way that you can think something is under stimulus control, but then the dog can do the behavior inappropriately when they get really worked up in a different situation, whether it was cued or not. I couldn't think of anything that was really the same, but that's where I was going with it. Or something like that


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## Emily1188

elrohwen said:


> Ok, so hugs and make up? :-D


Done! Blossom will come gobble your ear like a creep.


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## elrohwen

Emily1188 said:


> Done! Blossom will come gobble your ear.


Hah!

Watson really enjoys ear nibbling. He's kind of a weirdo. Well, it's mostly just weird when he does it to people who aren't expecting it.


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> Alright, so it was a bad analogy. I couldn't think of anything else applicable at the time. My point still stands that there is a risk there. Maybe most of the risk is just in owning a dog who excels that type of activity, and not necessarily the training. But either way, I don't think it's accurate to say that a Sch trained dog is less likely to bite than other dogs, or more likely to have an inhibited bite, and that they shouldn't be regarded as slightly more risky by organizations who are calculating the risk of allowing the dog.
> 
> I don't think the training is simplistic, and I don't think that that a Sch trained dog is going to run around biting people. I just said that I think there is going to be more risk with that type of dog, or a dog trained like that. Especially if the owner is not responsible or a particularly good trainer. If someone is a horrible trainer for agility, or hunting, it's not going to result in someone being bitten. But training a dog to bite people, whether for personal protection or a sport, could be done incorrectly or the dog could somehow make the wrong decision in a tense situation. There is more risk involved in owning lots of types of dogs. For some dogs, the risk is dog aggression. I took on risk by owning a hunting dog and having rabbits in the house, but therapy organizations and other dog clubs aren't concerned with that. They are concerned with a dog trained to bite humans, no matter how unlikely it is to occur outside of the training or trial situation.
> 
> ETA: I didn't mean this to turn into a huge thing, or making it look like I'm bashing Sch or IPO or whatever. I'm actually interested in these sports and learning more about them. I was just responding to packetsmom's comment about how a well trained Sch dog would be less likely to bite someone without a command. While I don't necessarily disagree about the well trained part, I wanted to make the point about the poorly or less well trained dog, and why organizations, like the ANKC, may make the rules that they do. I'm not saying I even agree with the rule, but I do agree there is some risk there in owning and working with a dog trained for protection or protection sports. That's all. I feel like no matter what I say, you will take it personally in a way that it's not meant, so I should probably just bow out of this thread.
> 
> Packetsmom, sorry for derailing your thread! I look forward to your stories of the training you do with Sam.


No worries! Often, at least for me, disagreements are the uncomfortable beginnings of understanding. 

I think you got the point in here above ^^^. To me, at least, the risk is inherent in simply owning a high drive dog, no matter how you train it. I feel like ScH training gives me a better handle on what drive Sam already has and better control of it. I feel more confident that I can control him because, instead of trying to squash that drive and have it pop out elsewhere, I'm working with it and we are learning to control it as a team. I'm also becoming more in tune with him and more aware of what flips that switch, what it looks like, how to handle him when it's flipped, etc.

I hate this analogy, but it's the only one I can think of, as imprecise as it is. Owning a high drive dog is kind of like owning a gun. You already own the gun. The risk is already there. Being trained on firearm safety and how to properly handle and shoot the gun does not make the gun any less of a weapon, but it does help you be a more responsible gun owner and decrease the risk of owning it. (Not that ScH dogs are weapons or ticking time bombs with or without training...many of dogs even bred for this never go into IPO or ringsports and still are safe to own and good pets.)


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## elrohwen

I have to think though, what if you trained a dog, to the best of your ability, to never use that fight/defensive/civil/whatever it is called drive against humans. The dog may never think everybody is his best friend, it's not in his nature, but he won't have learned the behavior of chasing or biting people and will have learned that his humans think it is incorrect behavior.

Then you take that dog's identical twin and train for bitesports, so he learns that generally people are ok, but that when he is really in drive sometimes it's ok to run after certain people and bite them as part of the game, but only when cued.

Then these dogs end up in a tense situation in the real world. What happens? Does the first not bite because he's learned it's not ever ok? Or does he act unpredictably because he has never focused that drive and learned to control it? Does the second dog stay in control? Or does he act out because, for whatever reason, he decides it's ok to bite that person the way he does in training, despite no cue from his owner?

I don't really know, just throwing some things out there. I guess to apply this to my own dog, what if I taught him to never hunt anything, ever, and to ignore small furry things. Would he be good around small furry things always? Or just a ticking time bomb? What about if I trained him to hunt, and trained control, would he be more or less trustworthy around small furry things? I don't know the answer to that either, but I do see that it would be impossible to really take that drive out of the dog no matter what you did. It's always there somewhere. I do think that training my dog for nosework, using his hunt drive, has made him more likely to hunt in certain scenarios because it's not completely under stimulus control and he has now learned it as a really rewarding activity even beyond what he was coming up with on his own. I'm not sure I could ever get that drive completely under stimulus control either, but mostly because it's impossible to keep him from self-rewarding by sniffing things.


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## packetsmom

Most of the people I know who have come to ScH did so after first trying to squash that drive. Often, they first went to conventional trainers who helped them train bite inhibition. Some even went to trainers who told them not to play tug with their dogs at all, because it does amp them up. For these people, this training failed. Without a healthy outlet for that drive, their dogs became less and less manageable. They developed nuisance behaviors. They decided they would choose when to protect rather than looking to their owner for guidance on what was an ok situation to be protective in.

Bitesports teach dogs not to take things into their own hands, but to follow the lead of the handler. In my example with the dog and the teenager in the hoodie, the dog did exactly what he should do. He barked to let the handler know, "Hey, I see someone who looks like they could be the bad man...should I go after him?" An untrained dog may or may not know to alert the owner before taking matters into his own hands. These dogs also get a much-needed outlet for that drive so that it doesn't come popping up in other was, mostly as nuisance behaviors. Yes, maybe they could get a similar outlet in other dog sports, but they would likely not learn the same control of their drive to protect.

This is absolutely not to say that some owners of these breeds, or even working lines of these breeds don't find other ways to handle those characteristics of their dogs. I'm certain some do and that there's more than one way to do it. This one, however, is fun for me and my dog.

An important distinction, too, is that my dog does NOT learn it's ok to run after certain people and bite them. He learns that in a very certain set of conditions and under my direction he is allowed to unleash hell's fury...on a bite sleeve. In the end, he is rewarded by getting to parade around with that sleeve and is petted by the helper as he does so. To me, that's a lot different than police dog bitework or personal protection bitework. The "big bad man" is also a great playmate here.


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## juliemule

packetsmom said:


> No worries! Often, at least for me, disagreements are the uncomfortable beginnings of understanding.
> 
> I think you got the point in here above ^^^. To me, at least, the risk is inherent in simply owning a high drive dog, no matter how you train it. I feel like ScH training gives me a better handle on what drive Sam already has and better control of it. I feel more confident that I can control him because, instead of trying to squash that drive and have it pop out elsewhere, I'm working with it and we are learning to control it as a team. I'm also becoming more in tune with him and more aware of what flips that switch, what it looks like, how to handle him when it's flipped, etc.
> 
> I hate this analogy, but it's the only one I can think of, as imprecise as it is. Owning a high drive dog is kind of like owning a gun. You already own the gun. The risk is already there. Being trained on firearm safety and how to properly handle and shoot the gun does not make the gun any less of a weapon, but it does help you be a more responsible gun owner and decrease the risk of owning it. (Not that ScH dogs are weapons or ticking time bombs with or without training...many of dogs even bred for this never go into IPO or ringsports and still are safe to own and good pets.)


This is pretty accurate. 

The type of dog that excels in bitework, is already a liability. Look at hoe many I take in (with no bite training) who have already bitten. When you teach control, the dog is much safer. Also, once trained PPDs are generally handled much differently than pet dogs. 

While there are some [email protected]@ dogs that will attack unprovoked, these are not the type usually used for PPD
... Control is of utmost importance!

I have 4 trained protection dogs. I don't compete in sports. Two are friendly, two are aloof. All are safe. We don't go to dog parks, I don't let strangers or kids hang all over them (I wouldn't with ANY dog). I can work them in crowds, schools, etc. 

The potential for a dog to bite exists with any dog. Moreso with high drive protection type dogs. It's the same as with a high drive border collie....untrained, he will try to herd anything, cars, kids, animals. However when you train him to herd sheep, work the dog, he then learns what is appropriate and has an outlet to work those instincts. That makes him less likely to have unwanted behaviors.


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## elrohwen

packetsmom said:


> An important distinction, too, is that my dog does NOT learn it's ok to run after certain people and bite them. He learns that in a very certain set of conditions and under my direction he is allowed to unleash hell's fury...on a bite sleeve. In the end, he is rewarded by getting to parade around with that sleeve and is petted by the helper as he does so. To me, that's a lot different than police dog bitework or personal protection bitework. The "big bad man" is also a great playmate here.


Not disagreeing with this at all. But, if the dog really only views it as a fun game of tug with a friend, then is it really controlling his protective instincts? Or is it just controlling his drive to tug?

It's like saying that tugging for a BC who does agility is in prey drive, and you are controlling his prey drive by controlling his tugging. But if he sees something else that revs his prey drive, like a squirrel, is the control you have really going to transfer? Or is it too specific to the tug?

I dunno, just throwing things out there that I don't know the answers to.


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> Not disagreeing with this at all. But, if the dog really only views it as a fun game of tug with a friend, then is it really controlling his protective instincts? Or is it just controlling his drive to tug?
> 
> It's like saying that tugging for a BC who does agility is in prey drive, and you are controlling his prey drive by controlling his tugging. But if he sees something else that revs his prey drive, like a squirrel, is the control you have really going to transfer? Or is it too specific to the tug?
> 
> I dunno, just throwing things out there that I don't know the answers to.


I think there are some important differences between bitesports and tug, but there's a reason bitesport training almost always starts with tug. When you play tug with a dog, particularly as you're just starting out, you learn how to rev them up for the game, but also how to "cap" drive when they get too out of control. They learn how to better target their bite to hit one specific spot on the toy rather than hands on the toy. You learn how to read your dog, so that you know when they're getting too amped up and when they're at a level you can still work with them. I think there's a lot both dog and handler can learn just from playing tug.

However, in bitesports, you take that to another level. For one, in tug, the dog is right there and you're right there with him. It's easy to correct any mistakes the dogs makes, even if it's just stopping the play for a bit after a missed bite. In bitework, there is eventually more distance between dog and handler and the dog has to learn how to still hear and respond to the handler's commands even while going for a bite. The dog also learns how to respond even if the helper is acting threatening or there are a lot of distractions.

I think the dog learns a lot about being in drive, but still working while in that heightened state of arousal. That could translate to the dog still responding to the handler outside of the field when in a threatening situation. It teaches the dog to not take it upon themselves to just react to a threat, but to look to the handler for guidence when the threat appears.

Honestly, though, I think the things the training teaches the handler might be more useful. You learn to read your dog and know where those thresholds are. You learn how to remain calm when your dog is in drive and even when it is attacking the sleeve. You learn how to keep control of the dog even when it is in drive, which could be very useful if/when the dog is faced with a situation outside the field that flips that switch.


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## elrohwen

Good explanation all around. On a basic or beginning level it's about controlling the game of tug, but working up to control in drive all around is the ultimate goal. As Laurelin pointed out in the other thread, I think there are a lot of similarities between the ultimate goal in agility and SCH, even if it looks different from the outside and the training is different.


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## elrohwen

Ok, another question. What do these types of drives look like in puppies? I'm sure juliemule has a lot of experience with that. And what made you think this would be a fun activity for Sam? I can see getting a dog whose parents are titled in SCH and wanting to do it with a pup, but with a mix like Sam without that background, what things stood out to you?


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## packetsmom

The working line GSD that we train alongside has an insane amount of drive. If you bring out anything that even remotely resembles a tug (or even something she can just use as a tug), she's on it and so focused on it that the rest of the world doesn't even exist. It's more motivating for her than food and she is almost shaking she wants to get it so bad. The moment she has ahold of a tug, she will not let go. You can pick her up by the tug and she still won't even budge. She's about the same age as Sam and teething, as he is. Unlike him, this has not diminished her desire to tug in the least. She left 4 baby teeth in a bite pillow (the transition step between a puppy tug and a bite sleeve) and she STILL wanted to get back on it. It's like a relentless, single-minded focus that makes the dog want to do the work (whether that work is herding, tracking, bitework, etc) more than anything and through any amount of distraction or, if it's a police dog, even pain. A dog with high drive even as a puppy displays a singleminded focus and determination for whatever work they were bred for.

Sam is not that high drive, although he is higher drive than most dogs I've had, even our GSD's. He is teething and does not tug like he did before he started. He does get distracted even in the puppy circle. He already has an off switch whereas most working line puppies take quite a while to get one and can be a PITA to live with. I have to work harder to motivate him for the tug and even then, some of it is more play drive than prey drive. He bows and jumps at it and will jump away like a typically puppy whereas the working pups on either side of him are barking and trying to get it with a different kind of ferocity.

So...what made me think he'd like this?

From a young age, for Sam, the only game in his mind that exists has been tug. Before he started teething, he would play tug with anything that wasn't nailed down. I know this is pretty common for lots of puppies, but with him, there was a difference. Often, a game of tug would start out simply as play, like with any other dog or puppy I've had. Then, at some point, I felt like a switch flipped and it went from a game in play drive to something more serious for him. It's hard for me to express what that difference precisely was, but it was there. He has it in smaller amounts than the purebred working dogs I've seen, but it's still there. My ScH club noticed it in the midst of some tug even now. For them, it's the Malinios in him peeking out from behind the St. Bernard. It's like he goes from the doofy puppy play bowing and jumping at the tug...to serious. It's still fun for him, but it's not as lighthearted, like when you're playing a game with someone and suddenly they become competitive about it instead of it just being for fun.

I also saw that he was a dog that was going to need a job. He thrives on very strict structure. The more regimented and consistent I am, the more confident he becomes. There is something in him that loves that order as well as knowing very clearly that he has a job to do. I considered the dog sports out there and after going to a Schutzhund practice, it just seemed like a good fit for his personality. Even for a puppy, he's not that happy go lucky. He is aloof with strangers. He is not as body aware as he might need to be for agility. He LOVES to bite into things and hold on.

He's still teething, so it's really hard to know if he will work out as far as the protection aspect goes. His drive may come back with a vengeance after his adult teeth are all in. Or, he may slow down and lose even more drive as he fills out. Either way, I think he will benefit from the obedience and tracking portions of ScH and we can always find other things to do as well, but if that drive does come back and continue to build, I feel like I have a place to go to learn how to work with it and to give him a healthy outlet where he can happily enjoy that.


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## elrohwen

I find it fascinating that such young puppies can have such drive. To relate it back to hunting dogs which I have slightly more experience with, there are puppies extremely interested in birds and beginning their training at 8 weeks. I'm pretty sure Watson didn't realize what hunting was until 5 months. I mean, he was interested in the bunnies, but he didn't use his nose much at all until at least 4 months. Now he's pretty high hunt drive, as far as dogs go, but I'm sure he is no where near where those brittanies and ESS puppies are at. He could hunt, but he wouldn't be a field trial star. 

This makes me realize I need to work on Watson's tug/ball/retrieve drive more. He's moderate in all, but it's there and I should build it up if I want to try agility (and because having reinforcers other than food is always a good thing). He actually tugged all through the teething stage. I knew he was teething because I could feel the loose teeth while tugging, and then he would get blood on the rope toy. But then most days he will retrieve less than 10 times and he wanders off to sniff something.


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> I find it fascinating that such young puppies can have such drive. To relate it back to hunting dogs which I have slightly more experience with, there are puppies extremely interested in birds and beginning their training at 8 weeks. I'm pretty sure Watson didn't realize what hunting was until 5 months. I mean, he was interested in the bunnies, but he didn't use his nose much at all until at least 4 months. Now he's pretty high hunt drive, as far as dogs go, but I'm sure he is no where near where those brittanies and ESS puppies are at. He could hunt, but he wouldn't be a field trial star.
> 
> This makes me realize I need to work on Watson's tug/ball/retrieve drive more. He's moderate in all, but it's there and I should build it up if I want to try agility (and because having reinforcers other than food is always a good thing). He actually tugged all through the teething stage. I knew he was teething because I could feel the loose teeth while tugging, and then he would get blood on the rope toy. But then most days he will retrieve less than 10 times and he wanders off to sniff something.


In the book I'm reading, it talks about all different kinds of drives and basically says that, at any given time, if you could take a snapshot of your dog's different drives, they would look kind of like a bar graph with some being higher than others. It then talks about each drive and how you can work with it, either increasing or "capping" it as needed or building it if you find it's low. I thought it was an interesting way to think about training.

For example, in their terminology, building engagement builds "pack drive" (let's forget the CM notion of pack for now), which is basically what drives a dog to want to do something for you because you are part of a team together. Compulsion training often relies a lot on pack drive in the hopes that a dog will want to obey simply because you're his owner. Building engagement and a relationship with a dog can still help in training even if you are using positive reinforcement, so it talks about how to build that "drive." It goes through each drive they describe and talks about how it can or can't be used to train in a way similar to that.

The book talks about sticking with food drive for puppies as you build toy drive. I already notice that there are times that Sam is more motivated for a tug than food, particularly right before he began teething. I definitely think it's good to build up both so that you can use both whenever you choose. 

Sam is a retrieving failure right now. He does NOT want to give up a toy once he has it. We're working on that, but for now, the focus is on increasing his desire for the tug through the time he's teething, so we're not so worried about him being possessive of it if it keeps him interested.


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## packetsmom

So...up this coming week...

Saturday - Tracking practice followed with a brief bit of obedience and a wee bit of protection...all out in the "valley."
Monday - More formal Obedience and Protection practice
Wednesday - Ditto

In between, working primarily on engagement and socialization as well as cuing sits, downs, and stands to their German commands. I'm also going to continue to do the muscle memory work getting him used to walking closely beside me while looking up. It's not natural for the dog to look up while walking forward, so I'm following a method that starts with young pups getting them used to doing it for short periods of time with food as a lure. You walk along a wall with just enough room for the dog to walk between you and the wall and hold a treat in your hand so that they look up, nosing for the treat. You treat them for walking with their front shoulder even with your leg, head up. Eventually,you fade the lure and treat for eye contact while walking that way. Before you know it, you have the makings of a good fuss (foos) or focused heeling!


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## packetsmom

Great Success!!! 

We had to just do tracking today because we didn't have enough people who could stay for obedience and protection, so we went home after tracking and worked some in the yard.

Sam did great on his first track, so the training coordinator (think like a coach on a team) had me double the length of his second track. He did great again, so now I will be doubling it again. What we need to work on...is me! I need to let go and let him do his thing, only holding him back to help him when he tries to rush through. I also need to work on my leash handling for holding him back. He's really strong already and when he gets his nose into the track and starts surging forward, it's really hard to hold onto him. He gets so motivated and rewarded by the act of tracking that he often skips the food rewards in the track.

So...my "low drive dog?" Well...apparently he has the drive to track in spades! 

Tomorrow we're working on our own, then Monday we'll be back with the club for obedience and protection!


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## juliemule

That's awesome! It's so much fun once things begin to click with these dogs. They just seem to take off like a rocket!


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## packetsmom

juliemule said:


> That's awesome! It's so much fun once things begin to click with these dogs. They just seem to take off like a rocket!


Yes, it is!  I think, no matter what comes of obedience and protection with Sam, that we could definitely work our way through tracking titles. He just loves the work and is good at it. I find myself, everywhere I drive, looking at open fields of grass and thinking, "Hmmm...is that tall enough? Too tall? Where would I lay a track?" I also think it's a great activity for puppies and a little lower key for the handlers as well. In tracking, you have to learn to let go more and let the dog do its work and you can't really control how the dog is going to do. That is a BIG challenge often for the type of handler this sport attracts, but I really think it's good for us!

Tonight, my husband gets to come with us to obedience and protection practice. It will be his first time at a Schutzhund practice and I'm interested to see what he thinks. They'd love to have the big guy learn to be a helper, but he's new to dogs in general, so I think it may be a while before he'd be ready for that.


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## elrohwen

Is the tracking similar to AKC tracking? (not that I know much about AKC tracking) That's something you could look into too. Nosework is also somewhat similar if he's into using his nose.


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> Is the tracking similar to AKC tracking? (not that I know much about AKC tracking) That's something you could look into too. Nosework is also somewhat similar if he's into using his nose.


I've definitely considered those for the future.  He loves using his nose! For now, with ScH practices 2-3 times a week, I think we're pretty well booked up. We're waiting to see what his drive does after he's done teething. The poor guy has lost 5 baby teeth in the past week and a half and his poor gums are a swollen mess and often bleeding.  As a result, it's hard to tell if he is going to have the drive for protection work or not. I'm considering not having him work protection tonight at all, given the shape of his gums.

If he turns out not to pass the muster for protection (the club will let me know after he's done teething and they've had a chance to see him in action playing tug with a helper), then we can always just go to tracking practices with them, do obedience, and look at other sports as well. I really like that this club is not an "all or nothing" kind of club and does have members that don't do protection with their dogs, for various reasons.

You can actually trial in Schutzhund for obedience and tracking titles, separate from the IPO/ScH titles, which encompass all three.


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## elrohwen

That's really nice that they are open to people doing what they can, or what they are most interested in. Sounds like a good group.


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## packetsmom

Blarrrrrttttt!!! 

So, last night was a cold and windy evening here. Most of the dogs and handlers were in an off mood and the helper needed to leave to run to drop off a dog at the airport, so we did not do protection work last night. I think it was just as well given the general mood as well as Sam's poor gums, which look pretty rough still. We did work on obedience. With Sam, I primarily worked on focus and then a little bit of preparation work for heeling along the fence. My husband was there last night and we tried to do a little recall practice, but I think he was just too excited to have us both there. He is much easier to handle with just one of us around.

I did get some good tips to work on and was advised to focus on tracking more while he is teething and let the rest kind of go easy. I can still work a little bit on obedience, but with a light hand and only as much as he finds it fun. We don't want him to begin having a negative association with obedience and protection.

So...the week ahead, I'm suppose to set up tracks everywhere and feed him most of his meals from tracks. No grass is too short for puppies, I was told, so long as the food is there. It will keep him moving forward on that and help keep him engaged.

I guess we're "on track?" (I know, GROAN!!!) 

In other news, I was asked to fill out an application to formally join the club. Woo-hoo!!! We'll also have a trial in September and I'm excited to watch the dogs I've seen practicing in it.


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## elrohwen

For tracking, what is the general strategy for weaning off of the food? I assume you start using less and less, but do you eventually remove it altogether and substitute some other reward at the end? I seem to remember that they are expected to find things along the way too, as if someone dropped them while leaving the track.


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> For tracking, what is the general strategy for weaning off of the food? I assume you start using less and less, but do you eventually remove it altogether and substitute some other reward at the end? I seem to remember that they are expected to find things along the way too, as if someone dropped them while leaving the track.


It all depends on the handler. Some caution against fading the food too quickly. This can lead to a dog that forges ahead even more and doesn't sniff each footprint. While, from a results standpoint, a dog can track really well and quicker by not sniffing every footprint, for ScH tracking trials, they must sniff each print. Keeping the food in each step longer can help slow them down a bit. 

I've been given two competing strategies. The man who trains with the club who has police K9 experience favors keeping puppies on shorter tracks and fading the food sooner, starting to randomly drop the treat every so often into the toe of the track. You want to vary the side you put the food as well as the interval of footsteps between the treats, otherwise, smart dogs will start to only sniff in footprints that are most likely to have the food or on the side that is most likely to have the food. Our training coordinator favors keeping the food in each step much longer and increasing the puppy tracks until the dog is tracking a very long track, but with constant reward. Then, you can start fading the reward every few steps. Eventually, you will only reward in training after an article is found and then toss a treat while he dog is distracted further along the track so that the dog is rewarded again when they start to track again.

For now, since he's skipping food when tracking anyway, I'm not worried too much about fading it yet and concentrating on longer tracks.

The dogs eventually do need to find and alert to dropped articles by laying down, but that doesn't come until much later. I'm interested to see how they train that, but right now, all of the dogs in the club are either already trained to do it or are puppies young enough they aren't training for it yet.


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## juliemule

My sister is on her way to Alaska now, moving to North Pole. Is that anywhere near you?


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## packetsmom

juliemule said:


> My sister is on her way to Alaska now, moving to North Pole. Is that anywhere near you?


I have cousins in North Pole and I'll be up that direction this weekend! It's near Fairbanks, so about a day's drive from Anchorage, where I am.  Hopefully, she's prepared for the wild weather up there. They are inland and have some extremes. It can get very hot in the summertime and very cold in the winter. My cousins, however, love it up there because there is a lot more open space than "Anchor town."


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## juliemule

packetsmom said:


> I have cousins in North Pole and I'll be up that direction this weekend! It's near Fairbanks, so about a day's drive from Anchorage, where I am.  Hopefully, she's prepared for the wild weather up there. They are inland and have some extremes. It can get very hot in the summertime and very cold in the winter. My cousins, however, love it up there because there is a lot more open space than "Anchor town."


You should stop in and welcome them sometime! She has lived mostly on the California coast, so I believe she will be in for a huge shock weather wise


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## packetsmom

juliemule said:


> You should stop in and welcome them sometime! She has lived mostly on the California coast, so I believe she will be in for a huge shock weather wise


My trip this weekend involves being in the outdoors without a shower for a few days and fish guts, so I'm thinking my next trip would make a better social call, but yes.  She could meet the famous Sam as well. 

If she is a dog person, I know a really nice BMD breeder up there that could get her hooked up with the local dog scene. I know they do also have a really good training place up there as well. I'm not sure about ScH clubs or anything like that...I think those are all down this direction.


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## quatro

Hello everyone, I am new here and the subject caught my attention. I also find Schutzhund very interesting and train my 2 dogs in the sport. Looking t forward to checking back in here and learning.


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## packetsmom

I've been on vacation, so Sam had a training break for a week with camping trips and other fun.
In the meantime, he lost the last of his baby teeth and most of his adult teeth have come in. He's also gotten bigger.

We were back at Schutzhund practice this Saturday as official members! I still need to send in our application for USCA as well. The biggest difference in being a member seems to be the amount of attention we get from the training coordinator, who is much more hands-on now.

Sam did amazing in tracking, even impressing the other members with his focus. He's progressed to tracks longer than a football field with treats in just every third step. I was so proud of him!  After tracking most of the day, we did obedience and protection. The training coordinator worked with Sam and I and gave me some good advice. Then, we brought out his tug and a ball on a string just to see where his drive is now that teething is almost done.

I needn't have worried. If anything his drive is even stronger now than it was before teething! Playing tug with him now is like flipping some kind of switch in him. It's hard to describe, but it's clear I'm going to need to work hard to keep on top of him, which makes the work we're doing in obedience that much more important! 

The biggest thing that made me grin was Sam playing with a ball...for the first time! I've been working for months trying to get him to play with one. We used a ball on a string and once he discovered he could tug on it...that was all it took. Everyone laughed at how excited I got. Lol!


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## Cattledogfanatic

Yay! Love these updates! So glad to hear its going well and that you guys are having fun.


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## SDRRanger

I love reading about how Sam is doing with his training. He seems to be really enjoying it and kudos to you for looking for a sport that is suited for your dog


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## packetsmom

Thanks guys! I think Sam and I have really found a good place for us and a sport that fits us both well. . I really get antsy the day before a training day and I think both of us get keyed up on the ride to the field, looking forward to working together!

Tonight, however, we had to miss practice due to family being in town visiting. . After they left, I took Sam out in the rain to work on our obedience stuff at least. He did great. I stopped in front of houses with barking dogs or people outside on purpose (if my neighbors don't already know I'm nuts...they soon will!) and used them as a distraction and trained sitz and plots'es (German for sit and down). I've gotten to where I'm always looking for a new distraction or something new he's nervous about to work with and I'm loving seeing him start to anticipate working even before I do! A car goes by and he looks at me like, "Ok...there's a distraction...what are we going to work on?!" 

The only issue I had tonight was a weird one. I was practicing focused heeling muscle memory exercises along a fence and once we reached a certain section, he completely lost his head, backing up, snorting, and giving the fence the whale eye. I looked at the section, which was right in front of what looked to be a fresh hole in the fence and didn't see anything except it maybe smelled a little smokey. I tried dropping almost a pile of "free" treats in front of the fence...he still backed away. I was only able to lure him about 3 feet from that section. About 3 feet past the hole, he was fine. I lingered a bit at that distance and ran through his behaviors and was generous with treats and moved on and he was fine the rest of the walk.

It's the season when bears are pretty desperate to feed and that fence backs to a nature sanctuary, so I'm wondering if the neighborhood black bear had something to do with all this?


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## packetsmom

Our club's trial that we are hosting is this weekend, so things are at a fever pitch at practice. I think everyone, including the dogs can feel it!

Sam and I couldn't make tracking practice due to on call at work, but we were front and center at obedience and protection. Sam did great at obedience and then surprised us in protection, getting a good grip with the helper in tug. I also helped with another dog in protection for the first time, serving as a distraction similar to how the judge will in trial. It was the closet I've been to one of the dogs doing protection and it was almost like the dog was full of electricity. As she did the bark and hold, he back legs trembled and her jaws snapped. She stared up at the helper/decoy with such intensity, daring him to move.

It was pretty cool. After she got her bite and won her sleeve, she had the grin of a proud dog and her tail going about fast enough to propel her.


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## packetsmom

Trials and Tribulations!!!

So, I got to volunteer this weekend for my first Schutzhund trial! I served as a group member, which means I was on the field for the obedience portions of the competition as a distraction for the dogs. The trial took most of the weekend, although I was only able to be there Saturday. I did, however, get to see dogs doing all 3 parts of a full IPO title competition and I got to see dogs from the BH level on up to IPO3. It was a pretty exciting day, even with steady rain and cold. (I was soaked and shivering by the time we left!)

A few things I thought were interesting...

Although I knew that dogs don't need to make all their points, I was surprised by how lenient it can be, particularly at the lower levels. For example, a dog can skip the jump going out to get a dumbell in obedience, but if they take the jump on the way back, they can still earn some points for the exercise. I did see the effects of trial nerves, though, with many dogs that were flawless in practice having issues. The judge was very kind and tried to help the competitors relax and feel at ease, even when they were frustrated. Even when a dog failed, she came up with positive things to say as well as ideas for improvement. She obviously was a lot more strict with competitors at higher levels.

We had one dog fail temperment. This was a 3 year old doberman that the owner knew has been having issues. He was checking in with the judge to do tracking, first thing in the morning, and the first leg of his trial for the day when he lunged for the judge and bit her in the stomach. It was not a serious bite, but it immediately disqualified him from competition. This owner had flown from Ketchikan for the competition, so it was a pretty tough blow.

We trialed with 3 other clubs present and it was great to see everyone come together and support each other. There was some friendly ribbing, but the clubs cheered each other on as well.

I think I particularly enjoyed the trial because I knew the dogs and handlers and I had seen so much of the work involved to prepare. I can't wait to bring Sam out for his BH in a year or two!


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## packetsmom

Just a quick update...

Our club is having its "end of season" party this weekend. I'm a little sad to see the regular season end, since it means no more tracking practices until the spring and only limited obedience and protection practices since we'll soon need to move to an indoor venue, which severely limits our available time. Such is the reality of Schutzhund in Alaska, though, and why it often takes us more time to train dogs for trial than clubs in other, warmer places. 

This winter, I'm thinking we'll actually continue to do some tracking in the snow. I'm considering hooking up with our local volunteer SAR club, just to get to know what kind of training they offer and what the commitment is like if we did eventually go that route. I'm also considering doing a little skijor training with Sam, without weight this year. We'll definitely be out hiking and playing in the snow! We'll also continue with our obedience training and see where he goes with protection.


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## juliemule

Why don't they do indoor tracking? Surely there are concrete floored warehouses?


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## packetsmom

juliemule said:


> Why don't they do indoor tracking? Surely there are concrete floored warehouses?


Actually, not many. Alaska is not much of a place for manufacturing and, oddly enough, in Anchorage, build-able land is actually at a premium. It can be very hard to find a indoor facility even big enough to do obedience and protection in. Given that Schutzhund trial rules only test on tracking in grass, there's less of a push to find any indoor facilities. All the clubs up here just take the winter off from tracking and concentrate on obedience and protection until things thaw out.

Our volunteer SAR teams track all winter long and it's very important that they do. They get called up a lot in the snow.


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## elrohwen

packetsmom said:


> This winter, I'm thinking we'll actually continue to do some tracking in the snow.


Watson looooves tracking in the snow, so I bet you and Sam will have fun with it. I'm sure there was some visual element to it, but he seemed really excited about putting his nose into each track and being very thorough about it.


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> Watson looooves tracking in the snow, so I bet you and Sam will have fun with it. I'm sure there was some visual element to it, but he seemed really excited about putting his nose into each track and being very thorough about it.


I have to admit, I'm a little excited for our first snows up here. He was such a small puppy for the snow last year and I can't wait to see if he'll play in it and have a great time.  I can't imagine a half Saint Bernard NOT enjoying tracking in the snow, so hopefully we'll have some good times!


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## MaDeuce

2. Most search and rescue organizations will not let you volunteer with your dog if it is trained in one of these sports. The reason being that once the dog finds the person they are searching for, if that person were to react in a hostile or unexpected manner, the dog might go in for a bite.

----------------------

Which is complete nonsense. It is not an attack towards you, I know that a lot of teams do not allow it but it is complete nonsense. I am very lucky that my old and new team have no issues by doing both. 



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## packetsmom

MaDeuce said:


> 2. Most search and rescue organizations will not let you volunteer with your dog if it is trained in one of these sports. The reason being that once the dog finds the person they are searching for, if that person were to react in a hostile or unexpected manner, the dog might go in for a bite.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Which is complete nonsense. It is not an attack towards you, I know that a lot of teams do not allow it but it is complete nonsense. I am very lucky that my old and new team have no issues by doing both.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I can see both sides. Some IPO dogs probably should not be allowed to do SAR, while I've known others that I wouldn't have any worries about. I think, ideally, dog/handler teams would be evaluated on a case by case basis.

For me, I'm waiting to see what my pup's drive will be. Up here, it's an either or choice, but I like the idea of checking out SAR if his drive for bite work doesn't come through. If it does, I think I'll stick with ScH and give up on SAR, primarily since I'm already doing Schutzhund with him and it would mean one less club to juggle.


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## MaDeuce

I agree. It always depends on the dogs and training. I am lucky to have some truly magnificent dogs. There was a great video about SchH and SAR, where a dog went from ScH directly into searching for a subject. 
That being said, the dog was trained completely in prey and did not view the helper as real threat. It was a game, and there lies the difference between SchH in Germany and in the US.

In the US, people still want the real deal. In Germany the trend is going towards sport, meaning a lot of people do not care or want the real deal. They condition the dog onto the sleeve, not the man. Which is also a result of some very negative publicity. 

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## packetsmom

MaDeuce said:


> I agree. It always depends on the dogs and training. I am lucky to have some truly magnificent dogs. There was a great video about SchH and SAR, where a dog went from ScH directly into searching for a subject.
> That being said, the dog was trained completely in prey and did not view the helper as real threat. It was a game, and there lies the difference between SchH in Germany and in the US.
> 
> In the US, people still want the real deal. In Germany the trend is going towards sport, meaning a lot of people do not care or want the real deal. They condition the dog onto the sleeve, not the man. Which is also a result of some very negative publicity.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Personally, even if my dog shows an aptitude for protection, I have no interest in him developing civil drive. I'd be perfectly happy if all he ever thinks of protection is that it's a fun game with the sleeve.  I also don't want to ever have him in situations where he might be forced to bite outside of the sport. It's my job to keep us safe and off the field, he's my pet and I'm his protector.


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## packetsmom

So...last night Sam and I went to practice for the FIRST time since my nose surgery.

*The good news* - He was SUPER excited to be back on the field. I mean, you would have thought I took that dog to dog heaven, he was so beside himself and it was so sweet to see. LOL! The downside is that this meant that I could barely keep his attention and we didn't get much done in obedience, but yay for the enthusiasm! He also did a lot better in protection, playing tug with the helper with a good, strong bite. Again, he got distracted a bit, but it was the best he's done in that arena.

*The bad news* - My nose! OMG...the cold air was painful on the healing parts up in there. As a result of that and his distractions, I was pretty frustrated and grumpy. I'm hoping this continues to improve and plan on working with him more outside of practices, taking a step back and working more on focus and the basics again to regain the ground we lost while I was out.

*The VERY good news* - Honestly, I feel bad about it, but I've been avoiding Sam a little since my surgery. Part of it was being in pain and afraid my big dog would hit my nose. Part of it was simply being exhausted and needing rest, so not being able to do much with him. It all kind of added up to him missing me and not understanding why we weren't up to our usual stuff and me feeling disconnected from him. After practice, though...we were back to being peas and carrots and he got lots of belly rubs and loving after we got home. 

I don't know if we'll have tracking this weekend due to another club in town trialing and a few of our members working dogs in the trial, but I'm thinking Sam and I will go tracking regardless. It's his favorite part and it's been far too long.


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## juliemule

MaDeuce said:


> 2. Most search and rescue organizations will not let you volunteer with your dog if it is trained in one of these sports. The reason being that once the dog finds the person they are searching for, if that person were to react in a hostile or unexpected manner, the dog might go in for a bite.
> 
> ----------------------
> 
> Which is complete nonsense. It is not an attack towards you, I know that a lot of teams do not allow it but it is complete nonsense. I am very lucky that my old and new team have no issues by doing both.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Depending on the dog. Though I have had several tracks where the person was autistic, had Alzheimer's, 
Was confused in hypoglycemic, or combative.

By being able to read your dog, you should know when you are close. However a shift in wind directions can surprise you both.


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## quatro

At the end of the day, a good dog is a good dog. There are very few of them around but they can do it all and not even blink an eye


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## packetsmom

We were working on targeting and presentations last night in the backyard...








I think we need to practice some more! This was not an intentional bite, but he did miss the tug. On the bright side, he had some very nice grips and his drive is definitely coming in.


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## SDRRanger

Dang....Ranger has caught me a couple times in the hand/wrist, but I've been lucky as the softest thing about him is his bite lol.


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## packetsmom

SDRRanger said:


> Dang....Ranger has caught me a couple times in the hand/wrist, but I've been lucky as the softest thing about him is his bite lol.


I'm pretty sure that if he had wanted to bite me, it would have been a lot worse that this. This is from one of his teeth where he missed the tug, either due to a bad presentation on my part or poor targeting on his part. The moment he realized he wasn't on the tug, he let go and we took a break. Hit skin = game ends for a while. 

Also...I'm pretty fair skinned, so bruises really look more spectacular than they are. LOL! It did hurt a bit, but it wasn't too bad and after a break we went on playing. I've been at Schutzhund practices where people compared scars before.


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## elrohwen

I have some bruises like that from Watson. Except in his case he does intentionally miss the tug when he's really wound up. :sigh:

I know what you mean about the fair skin though! I always have horrible looking bruises and half the time I don't even know where they came from. haha


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> I have some bruises like that from Watson. Except in his case he does intentionally miss the tug when he's really wound up. :sigh:
> 
> I know what you mean about the fair skin though! I always have horrible looking bruises and half the time I don't even know where they came from. haha


Ooooo...you've got a dirty biter!  Sam used to go straight for the hands when he'd get really worked up. I'm glad we broke him of that relatively early, but those puppy teeth HURT! We'd simply stop playing any time he did that, just as we're doing now. He loves the game enough that stopping the game is a pretty good correction for that kind of thing.

We have a couple of dogs who are dirty biters in the club and they're at a level where they require a much stronger correction. I wonder, though, if it's simply their temperment or if there was something rushed through in training or if it was somehow reinforced at some point.


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## elrohwen

packetsmom said:


> Ooooo...you've got a dirty biter!  Sam used to go straight for the hands when he'd get really worked up. I'm glad we broke him of that relatively early, but those puppy teeth HURT! We'd simply stop playing any time he did that, just as we're doing now. He loves the game enough that stopping the game is a pretty good correction for that kind of thing.
> 
> We have a couple of dogs who are dirty biters in the club and they're at a level where they require a much stronger correction. I wonder, though, if it's simply their temperment or if there was something rushed through in training or if it was somehow reinforced at some point.


Yes, he's dirty. He looooves to wrestle and bite hands and arms. It's definitely my fault, because I don't mind some light mouthing in play and I didn't take a consistent approach to stop that when he was younger. I thought he had the bite inhibition thing down and he can wrestle without hurting me, but when he gets really into a game of tug he'll decide to switch to hands, and then he bites hard. So we have more work to do there. It's hard to stop the game though, because he will go for you when you walk away, biting your pants/shirt/hands, and he thinks that's part of the game. "Oh, mommy is leaving. I must chase her!" You have to reach past the bitey teeth to grab his collar to crate him.


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> Yes, he's dirty. He looooves to wrestle and bite hands and arms. It's definitely my fault, because I don't mind some light mouthing in play and I didn't take a consistent approach to stop that when he was younger. I thought he had the bite inhibition thing down and he can wrestle without hurting me, but when he gets really into a game of tug he'll decide to switch to hands, and then he bites hard. So we have more work to do there. It's hard to stop the game though, because he will go for you when you walk away, biting your pants/shirt/hands, and he thinks that's part of the game. "Oh, mommy is leaving. I must chase her!" You have to reach past the bitey teeth to grab his collar to crate him.


We went through that as well and I'm still pretty careful. For me, it's a lot like working with reactivity. When we play tug I watch for signs that he's getting over threshold and if he is getting there, I calm the game down or we stop. There were a few times I got him worked up as a puppy, he went over threshold, and he went for me, nipping at pants, arms, pretty much anything he could get ahold of. It seems like the "window" where he is amped up, yet able to control himself, gets a little bigger all the time and the more we play.

Right now, our biggest challenge with the bitey stuff is him learning to target well and me learning to present the tug well so he has a good, easy target. It's one of those things that sounds like it should be easy and I'm sure it is for more experienced handlers, but for me, it's new and a bit of a challenge. He's so eager to go for the tug that when I do bring it down, even if I have him in a sit beforehand, he's after it like THAT. So, I have to think ahead and present it in a way that it's easier for him to hit without hitting me. I expect that it will get better with practice for both of us, but I also expect him to have some misses while we're working on them and it's important that I don't freak out about them. So, I say, "Ouch" (or whatever word comes first to mind LOL!) and then we just take a break for a bit. No yelling or correction that might make him not like tug. Then, after a break and treating the wounds, we can start again.

When he would redirect onto clothes or skin as a puppy, I'd have him on a long line to play and I'd grab that to help corral him and then he'd go into timeout, just like you're doing. It took a while for him to get that doing that meant an end to the game as well as for me to be able to read where he was when we were playing and lower the intensity as necessary. It was at the same time we were working hard on bite inhibition, so to me, that period of time is just a blur of sharp puppy teeth and bloodshed! LOL!


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## elrohwen

packetsmom said:


> We went through that as well and I'm still pretty careful. For me, it's a lot like working with reactivity. When we play tug I watch for signs that he's getting over threshold and if he is getting there, I calm the game down or we stop. There were a few times I got him worked up as a puppy, he went over threshold, and he went for me, nipping at pants, arms, pretty much anything he could get ahold of. It seems like the "window" where he is amped up, yet able to control himself, gets a little bigger all the time and the more we play.


Unfortunately Watson sort of regressed there. The joys of adolescence! Certain times of the day he is just so over the top, that walking across the room is enough to make him go for you. I think it's the overtired thing, though I'm surprised he still does this at his age. When I can predict it, I try to crate him before he gets to that point.



> Right now, our biggest challenge with the bitey stuff is him learning to target well and me learning to present the tug well so he has a good, easy target.


I'm a pro at this by now, since I'm always trying to make sure the tug is in his mouth instead of my hand. It's tricky!



> When he would redirect onto clothes or skin as a puppy, I'd have him on a long line to play and I'd grab that to help corral him and then he'd go into timeout, just like you're doing. It took a while for him to get that doing that meant an end to the game as well as for me to be able to read where he was when we were playing and lower the intensity as necessary. It was at the same time we were working hard on bite inhibition, so to me, that period of time is just a blur of sharp puppy teeth and bloodshed! LOL!


Yes, if he's on leash it's easier. I just step on it, close enough that he can't jump or grab it, and he settles right down. I spent so much time trying to walk away and having him run after me, but stepping on the leash seems to shut the game down right away. He's so slow at stuff like this though, and has a hard time putting together the behavior with the consequences.


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## SDRRanger

I have an olive complexion and they still show up like mad. When I first got Ranger he used to 'bop' you with his nose in the shins all the time....the bruises were astounding. 

Haha re: comparing scars....when I showed horses we'd sit back and have a couple drinks on the Saturday night and share war stories. It's true what they say, every scar has a story.


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## packetsmom

SDRRanger said:


> I have an olive complexion and they still show up like mad. When I first got Ranger he used to 'bop' you with his nose in the shins all the time....the bruises were astounding.
> 
> Haha re: comparing scars....when I showed horses we'd sit back and have a couple drinks on the Saturday night and share war stories. It's true what they say, every scar has a story.


With both horses and dogs, I think it's good to occasionally have a humbling reminder of what they _could_ do in the form of a mark of something so much less. This was one of Sam's teeth accidentally hitting my arm...not all of them wrapped around my arm in a full bite. It's humbling that, instead of simply doing that to get what he wants, he is willing to play my game with me and patient enough to keep doing it even when I make us stop and start over. A lot of dogs really are so much more physically powerful than we are, yet so much more restrained in the way they use that power.

I have to say, I'm actually kind of proud of my first "war wound." I won't go looking for more, but I bet I'll collect more.


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## juliemule

I decided once I was going to take a picture as I caught a crazy little dutchie. Lol, yeah not my brightest decision :/.
So i set up with the camera right above but behind the sleeve. I'm looking at the screen to time it just right, as she leaps right over the sleeve grabbing hand and camera. Dirty biter. She was known for ducking under and grabbing legs occasionally too.


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## packetsmom

Last night was obedience and protection and it was COLD! LOL! We have about a month left at our usual practice field and some of us are working hard to make the most of it.

Sam and I worked obedience with one of the more experienced club members and he gave me a TON of great advice and exercises to try at home. This is probably the person in the club who I admire the most. He has a very balanced training style and defaults more to positive reinforcement and he has a wonderful, loving relationship with his dogs. These are the kinds of dogs that when they fuss, it's almost like you can see the devotion in their eyes as they look up at him.  He has a particular fondness for Sam, partially because of his big doofy-ness and it was great to get his input. He helped me with focus exercises, like holding two treats in my hand and giving him my "watch" command, but only giving up the treats when the dog looks at my eyes. We also worked on recalls and a little beginning focused heeling. Much of his advice was about when and how to reward as well as correct, which are things I'm still learning. I'm very reluctant to correct and at times that does get in our way, but oddly enough, it also leads to me being inhibited when it comes to rewarding as well. He also gave me a confidence boost by letting me know what my and my dog's strengths were as well as our weaknesses and how to leverage both a bit better.

In protection, Sam showed some equipment bias. We're trying to transition him from his favorite tug to a bite pillow and he's just not going for it. I'm going to get either a bite pillow or jute tug for at home, similar in size to his favorite tug and use that instead for home play. His grips are getting better, but as the helper said, "He's such a puppy!" He is behind other purebred working dogs his age in maturity and will flop over and mess around, but that's kind of to be expected given his mix. It's just going to take longer. When he does focus, though, he goes right for the tug and is a tenacious puller, so they think he will be able to do protection.

Lots of work to do this week before tracking on Saturday!


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## packetsmom

We're tracking again tomorrow!!! 

It will be cold and wet with a chance of snow, but we'll be out there with the hotdogs. After over a month of no tracking for poor Sam, I can't wait to see how excited he gets when he realizes where we are going.


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## packetsmom

Sam is a tracking BEAST!  I love the way he snuffles and snorts as he tracks. This week, we worked with him with 2 lines to help straighten out his rear in the track, which is awkward for me, but seemed to help him a lot. We did one very long track, fading the treats to one every 3rd step, then a shorter one, varying the treats to every 5th step, then every 3rd step, then back to the 5th, with the 2 lines. I also tried using a toy of his to teach him when we were done since he keeps trying to keep on tracking after the track is done. However, he ignored the break command and the toy in favor of still trying to track. LOL!

In obedience, I worked mostly on getting him closer to more people and dogs while keeping him calm. One of the older puppies is going into heat, though, so a lot of the dogs were acting a little different than usual. Still, he did pretty good. In protection, he was very distracted and I need to work with him more on tug at home. Tonight is obedience and protection practice and I plan on working hard on the socialization and focus in obedience and hopefully he'll be a little bit more focused for protection as well!


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## packetsmom

Sam did his first turns in tracking this weekend and barely missed a beat. I was so proud!

We did have a funny blooper moment. I've been tracking him with two leads to help straighten out his back end and it's been working great. I was adjusting one and clipping the other and he was so excited to start that he got away from me with no leash on at all. Happily, he went right to the track I'd laid and starting working it...without me! I caught up with him, leashed him, and brought him back to the beginning, but we definitely gave the club a laugh and I couldn't help but smile that he loves tracking so much that even off leash, he'd choose doing it over anything else he could have done.


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## packetsmom

We did obedience practice last night, but had to cut it short before we could do any protection...because a bull moose decided that our practice field was HIS practice field. You don't argue with a bull moose and particularly not during the rut! So, we all packed up early and headed out.

On the bright side, it was just a few of us and Sam and I got more one on one time with one of the experienced handlers. It really is SO great having another set of eyes to help you see what you're doing right and what you could be doing better. We worked on basic commands, a little informal heeling (the command close vs. fuss, which will come later), focus, and recalls. I still have to brace myself for Sam's recalls! We also talked about Sam's temperment in general and I got some good reassurance that his nervousness is something we can work through before he reaches the age to do more serious protection training. The handler recommended me taking him to the airport and just walking him around all the people, sitting with him at a distance from the center of activity and working on focus exercises.

Basically, everything that is tough for him to handle right now? Make sure he's around that almost constantly. Socialization, socialization, socialization. He needs to realize how big and tough he is and that he doesn't need to bark or put on a show unless I tell him to. We want to build his confidence to where he doesn't feel threatened by almost anything.


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## packetsmom

Just a quick update...

We had our final tracking practice and Sam did fantastic. He is now able to do a track with 2 turns. We just got a foot of snow, though, so at least for the younger dogs, the tracking season is over. It's widely believed up here that if you track an experienced dog in snow they will start to rely too much on being able to see the tracks, so most people simply work on protection and obedience or other sports during the winter.

In protection, he's really getting into tug, but is a "dirty fighter," punching a lot with his paws. In obedience, we're starting to work more and more on more formal heeling. I'm also studying up on skijor for the off season and he is enjoying playing in the snow.


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## BlackHaus

That's one of my biggest gripes about living up North, if you don't get in enough tracking or trialing while the weather is nice you're stuck waiting until spring to progress. 

Nice thread idea, would love to see any pictures anyone has to share.


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## Equinox

Not my own dogs, but I do have pictures!


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## Equinox




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## BlackHaus

Love the Giant Schnauzer, if I wasn't such a huge Shepherd fan I'd definitely consider one. 

Here are a few of my dog Odin throughout the years. While we started in Schutzhund we've learned that he really prefers to work on a suit, and is much more intense.. so I've been considering making a switch to another sport. Unfortunately for the past month or so he's been on limited activity due to a back injury, and he will be turning 5 in February so time may not exactly be on our side.  He loves it though and hopefully as soon as he's recovered we can get right back to it.

















And my favorite one of Shade:


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## quatro

Excellent pics Equinox and BlackHaus, perfect motivation to start getting ready for training (dogs are already up, I swear they know it is the w-end). Here is one of mine doing what he does best


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## MaDeuce

Makes me want to move back to Germany where you have a myriad of Clubs within a 70 Miles Radius...

I am planning a litter with my female Nala and Drago vom Patriot. Mainly for myself and a couple of really good friends. Mine get to old too. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ozyw9hYuxro 


She is worked solely in Area Search now and starts certifying this upcoming year. 
Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## mashlee08

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151868498587730&set=a.355777702729.149123.189604612729&type=1&theater

Ugh, this guy is a fruit bat.


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## Babael

I finally managed to get out to a club and I must say I'm hooked. We don't have our pup yet, so we're mostly observing and providing help with equipment setup / being part of the 'crowd'. My hubby also seems interested in learning decoy work. The dam of our pup is being bred this week and we're super excited.


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## BlackHaus

It's definitely an easy sport to get hooked on, and the dogs really seem to love it.


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## packetsmom

Babael said:


> I finally managed to get out to a club and I must say I'm hooked. We don't have our pup yet, so we're mostly observing and providing help with equipment setup / being part of the 'crowd'. My hubby also seems interested in learning decoy work. The dam of our pup is being bred this week and we're super excited.


That's awesome! I think finding a club you "fit" with makes all the difference in the world!


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## packetsmom

I thought I'd give a Sam update. We had to take a hiatus from training for the most part for a couple of months due to health issues on the home front. It looks like everything there is clearing up, so we've gotten back out to training. Here in Alaska, in the winter, we train together just one day a week in an indoor facility and we do obedience and some protection. We're just really limited on space in the winter.

Sam and I are having to back up a few steps and work more on engagement and basic obedience as well as increasing his prey drive. I find I have to work a lot more on that than some of the people who work working line GSD's. I have to work hard not to be discouraged.

On the bright side, Sam is always a happier, much better dog when we're actively training. It's clear that this is exactly what he needs and loves.


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## Babael

packetsmom said:


> I thought I'd give a Sam update. We had to take a hiatus from training for the most part for a couple of months due to health issues on the home front. It looks like everything there is clearing up, so we've gotten back out to training. Here in Alaska, in the winter, we train together just one day a week in an indoor facility and we do obedience and some protection. We're just really limited on space in the winter.
> 
> Sam and I are having to back up a few steps and work more on engagement and basic obedience as well as increasing his prey drive. I find I have to work a lot more on that than some of the people who work working line GSD's. I have to work hard not to be discouraged.
> 
> On the bright side, Sam is always a happier, much better dog when we're actively training. It's clear that this is exactly what he needs and loves.


I think you'll be a better trainer in the end. Good luck and keep at it! As for me, I'm still waiting on my pup to come home. He's about 2 weeks old and I'm still not sure which male is mine. I'm super excited though.


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## packetsmom

I just thought I'd give an update on Sam and our training. 

Sam is a year old now and really growing into his paws. We're hitting a pretty sudden "teenager" stage where he is really challenging me as a handler and I'm having to crack down and be "no fun at all." So, lot's of NILIF and drilling on basic obedience and engagement. On the bright side, in obedience, I'm actually seeing him make great strides and he is really making some serious progress.

On the downside, he is starting to find his feet in protection, but also has a bit of a misconception that stems from him challenging me as his handler. He is taking it upon himself to "protect" myself and other members of the family from what he perceives as threats without looking first to us for leadership, which is a big problem. I'm pretty sure that we'd be facing this with or without Schutzhund training, so I'm glad we have the club to help us work through it. We're working on socialization and getting him to engage more with me and we're working with other dogs and people in the ring. This past week, that was pretty much ALL we worked on, with him walking around dogs and people in an informal heel and then having him sniff other dogs and allow himself to be sniffed and finally do a down next to a neutral dog that was already in a down.

It's really important to keep reminding myself of how far he's come, which is REALLY far from the insecure, headshy puppy he was! We still have a long way to go, though, to the BH and a LOT of work to do with socialization and engagement, which for him is much harder than learning the commands.


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## SDRRanger

Glad for an update...I've been wondering how he's doing. How big is he now?


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## packetsmom

SDRRanger said:


> Glad for an update...I've been wondering how he's doing. How big is he now?


We need to get a new weight on him...it's been about a month. Then he was 95lbs. Now, I'm sure he's even more! He's still quite lean and seems to still be growing.


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## packetsmom

It's summer season again!!! We're starting up more weekly practices and the dogs are back out tracking again after the winter break. 

I'm happy to report that Sam did his first tracks on Saturday since the Fall and didn't miss a beat! After the first track, which had 2 turns and bait every 3 and 5 steps, I was able to decrease the bait to 5 and 8 steps, lengthen the track, and do 3 turns! I think we'll be training on articles by the end of the summer. 

SO proud of my boy!


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## SoccerSora

If anyone is in Orlando please message me, I started doing research on the different sports and my favorite seems to be Mondio Ring. Just all the aspects of it making it so complicated and the hardest of all the sports intrigues me. I actually volunteer with a 2 time world champion dog trainer (He does Schutzhund). The object guard aspect is really fascinating since the dog has to act on its own, and I never understood how to teach the bark and hold. I should be getting a Belgium Mallinois pup soon and it'll be fun trying to figure out how to train these.


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## MaDeuce

BlackHaus said:


> It's definitely an easy sport to get hooked on, and the dogs really seem to love it.


What a small world. My best friend has a brother to your Bianka. Blitz vom Littlehaus


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## Greater Swiss

I have a question and I figure this is a good spot to ask.....
I did a bit of Schutzhund with Caeda, she loved it, it just didn't work with my schedule at ALL (I couldn't go to over half of the practices because of work). I also just didn't quite click with the training director (nice guy, but I dunno....little too insistent on constant prong collar use). We still do a little bit of play tracking and such, and I still work on her obedience a fair bit (it isn't perfect, but I keep it up enough that I could "clean things up" and try for the BH....which she would have if I'd had the cash to pay for all of the fees!). She did some basic protection training, but we didn't get too far into it (not searching blinds or anything, just some work with the sleeve).

I've been seriously considering for AGES getting a sleeve, basically just for some backyard play, and for her fun. We play tons of tug, but honestly, I think the sleeve would be easier for me physically than a tug (which she has a tendency to whip around pretty hard). She's used a sleeve several times, and loved it, and caught on to where she should and shouldn't bite. I'm also pretty decent at "catching" her (I got a chance to get suited up and be the helper), I don't plan on doing any courage tests or anything (I'm not confident I could catch something like that safely!!). Basically, what I'm saying, is I know enough to keep her from getting hurt if I get a sleeve. 

Anyway....what kind of sleeve would you guys recommend. I don't want to spend a ton but I don't think a puppy sleeve will cut it, I really don't want to end up with tons of bruises from her....intermediate sleeves seem to come in both cushioned and hard, and the trial sleeves I think are both too expensive for my tastes, as well as a bunch of overkill for what we'll be doing (glorified tug with a sleeve rather than a rope). I'm considering just the forearm sleeve, not one that extends to the upper arm. I just haven't done quite enough and had enough experience with the different gear to be sure that I'd be wasting my money on a puppy sleeve because it would last 5 minutes and leave me with bruises, or if I'd be going overkill with an intermediate. The club I was in also always used full sleeves, or bite pillows....so no experience with the intermediate stuff. Caeda has quite the bite and isn't small, but she isn't super experienced with a solid hold either....thoughts?

sigh....I wish my schedule didn't suck so much...I'd love to get her back into it again.....


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## SDRRanger

I have no thoughts on this as it's never anything I've done, but if you say she's got a good bite on her and not a solid hold, I think a full sleeve would be a worthwhile investment. A misplaced higher than normal grab and some serious damage could be done.


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## Greater Swiss

Good point!! There are some that have the elbow guard, I think they are all intermediate sleeves....and those would protect me pretty well, and they don't strap up and secure all the way up to the top of the arm....which is something I kind of want to avoid, partially because it is awkward (well...the one I had on was!!) and heavy, which will tire me out SUPER fast. So hmmm.....leaning towards an intermediate, quick release sleeve with the extra guard....

Yeah, her hold is.....sort of ok (if she gets a perfect grip from the get go it is excellent), but she tries to shake the sleeve a LOT (which I've been told isn't the best...though no one told me why...). 

Anybody have any thoughts on pillow vs. more firm bite surface? It would be under a cover of course....oh, and I'm leaning towards jute rather than french linen, I've only used jute though so who knows, Caeda might like the linen more..... Anyone have input on the linen vs. jute?


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## SDRRanger

Oh god, I was picturing her grabbing you by the bicep, but the thought of the elbow is a million times worse!!! Definitely get the elbow guard (if only so I can sleep at night)


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## Greater Swiss

SDRRanger said:


> Oh god, I was picturing her grabbing you by the bicep, but the thought of the elbow is a million times worse!!! Definitely get the elbow guard (if only so I can sleep at night)


 LOL!! Elbow is the only spot higher up I'd really worry about...she's got good enough aim to miss the bicep. I've been bitten right by the elbow before it is NOT nice!


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## Babael

Bijuu and I have been participating at our schutzhund club for a month now. At this point, we're mostly cleaning up things I missed socializing him with. He's almost a year old and his reactivity has kicked up a notched. We're doing lots of obedience basics, drive building, and continuing out on going socialization, focusing on men in particular. He's drive are really developing, when we first when out to the club he made a couple of half attempts at getting the tug, but now he barks at me to make it 'come to life' so he can play, lol. We're both really enjoying the training. I can't wait to watch some trails and see the end produce of what we're working towards.


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## Babael

We've been participating in this sport for 8-ish months and we're still making good progress. Some times we have to back up and working some more on his reactivity, which is getting dramatically better. Bijuu's focus work is improving greatly and although he's had a little break from the protection work he's looking a lot better out there. Here are some videos from this weekend. We are by no means an experienced team, but we're working it out together.


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