# Rally People! Looking for opinions/feedback



## BlackHaus (Nov 11, 2013)

I'm in the process of putting together a class outline for a 6 week "Intro to Rally" course, and while I have a somewhat decent idea of how I'd like it to go, I could always use some feedback! 


For those who have taken Rally classes:

1) Was the course you took geared to just one particular class? (a 6-8 week Novice class vs. a 6-8 week class that covered RN, RA, RE, etc.)
(Did you like that particular setup?)

2) What was one aspect of Rally you wished was covered more? Less?

3) Reason for taking the class?

4) Any other comments?


For those who WANT to take Rally classes, but have not yet:

1) What are some things you are hoping to learn from taking a class vs. learning Rally on your own?

For those who have taught Rally:

1) Any parts of Rally that you found students had the hardest time with and would be worth spending more time on?




For the first week I'm thinking of doing kind of an overview on Rally, followed by a "review" of basic commands/leash work. From there I'm not sure if I should focus just on Novice for the entire 6 weeks, learning only the signs and rules for RN and doing practice runs, and then depending on how it goes maybe outlining the last week or two as a bit of an intro to Advanced? I'm still kind of in the brainstorming stage, I think I have probably a month or two to finalize everything and get rolling. 

Thanks in advance!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The rally classes I've done have had a mix of signs, so not just novice, though it was assumed if you were taking the class that your dog had a good grasp of basic obedience. There were 2 or 3 classes that were a prerequisite for the rally class. Another bonus was that most people in the class had at least done short rally courses (like 5-6 signs) in the previous classes and understood the concept, so we could move on to longer and trickier courses. With true beginners, I would start out with short sequences and novice signs, along with explanation for how it works (which side of the sign you stay on, the basic signs, etc). My class wasn't super structured, because many people took it multiple times. The instructors just tried to make it a little different each week, with the focus on different areas and what students were struggling with.

For the most part, my rally class was like two separate classes. On one half of the room, an instructor worked with people on basics like heeling, recalls, stays, etc. On the other half was a course where a different instructor walked through with the current dog/handler pair. For more novice handlers, that instructor could help with understanding tricky signs or basic handling stuff, while for more advanced handlers, the instructor worked like a judge, explaining where they would be losing points and how to improve. I thought this worked well because it's like a mini private lesson for the handler going through the course, while everyone else gets to work with an instructor on other obedience basics instead of sitting around.

One of the most fun things we did (in a "fun" obedience class, not the rally class) was doing a relay race through a short rally sequence. There were two teams of 3-4 dogs, and everyone had to go through the course as quickly as possible and the team to get all dogs through won. We certainly weren't precise, but it was fun for the people and the dogs. The cheering and quick movement was also good for proofing around distractions.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I'll tell you right now, you will never be able to fit all three levels into a 6 week class unless it's geared to competition people who have shown their dogs. I teach a six week intro to rally class where I train. How I teach it is the first 5 weeks is all about the signs and I introduce anywhere between 6 - 8 signs a class. I have a baby rally course set up with the new signs in it. We'll talk and work a couple of new signs...everyone goes through the course up until the signs we haven't discussed. Then we talk about and work those new signs. The last class I have them do an actual novice rally course from a map that I or another rally student from my drop in class has shown on. Once the intro people finish the 6 week class, they are encouraged to hit the drop in rally class I teach. I do usually have an excellent or advanced course out at the drop ins...but I nest in the novice signs for the advanced and excellent signs. That way, all levels can play. Every once in a great while I will hold a 4 week class to cover Rally Advanced if there is enough interest. 

This is what I would change if I had the authority to do so....I would make it an 8 week class if I could. I usually have anywhere from 6 - 8 people in my class. 6 I can handle...8 is hard to give everyone attention. In the big classes, I always seem to have that one needy person who thinks I'm there just to talk with only them about how cute it is that their dog can sit up and beg (Oh let me show you! *for the 12th time*) It's a rare treat that I have someone who has done obedience before with a previous dog. With people who have never done anything competitive obedience wise, I burn up a lot of time talking about basics on how to get your dog to set up in heel position...how to get the dog to heel with any sort of attention...how to hold food rewards correctly so the dog doesn't crab and sit in front of them when they halt. The week I talk about call fronts and finishes with signs...I spend an hour showing them how to do just those 4 signs where I need to talk about 8 signs. I always feel like I'm rushed to cram as much info as I can with them in six weeks...I feel that class can be overwhelming for them. I so wish I could spread out the signs to 6 weeks (6 signs/night) and do the last two weeks of novice rally courses. 

The other thing I wished people did before coming into my intro rally class would be for them to take some sort of an attention class or even better...a heeling class. Unfortunately, where I teach hasn't offered either in a while...so I have to factor that into my rally class lessons as well. 

One piece of advice I will give is use your own dog for demos on the signs...it helps people see what the signs looks like in reality. Don't even bother trying to use class dogs for demos. Most of the dogs who come into my class are under a year and I can barely get them to sit let alone do anything that looks like rally because they are spazzing out at the end of the leash. LOL I have tried and tried and tried to use class dogs to demo signs...and 9 times out of 10, I end up getting my own. 

The sign that blows all novice rally students minds is sign 29...that Schutzhund about turn. No one gets that at all. I always have to break out one of my boys and do that in slow mo about 10 times. Then they still don't get it. LOL I have to stand next to them individually doing the turn and say "you turn towards me...the dog turns away from me...and you end up back in heel position." Do that about 5 times and they start to get it.

I always forget how much goes into working dogs correctly...even in rally. I always forget that people who are 98% pet dog owners in my intro rally class...don't know any of that second nature stuff I do with my dogs. Be prepared to share a lot of info and spend a lot of time with the class on stuff that is incredibly basic. I'm not sure if this is your first time teaching a class...I find teaching incredibly fun and incredibly frustrating sometimes (with the owners) but I have a great time doing it.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I wish that "Intro to Rally" classes had no signs at all. Along MrsBoats lines, dogs need to understand heeling, fronting, and finishing. Without being solid on those skills, rally is just a total bust. I hate watching people drag their dogs around with a tight leash or a cookie plastered to their dog's nose and think that they are making progress. Heeling, fronting, and finishing. If you can teach that, the rest of the signs are just doodles and cute tricks.

I attend a drop-in rally class from time to time. The instructors set up a nested course (one where you can chose between an Ex, Adv, Nov sign) and then mostly stay out of the way. Handlers can work the course and then watch others work. We each get 3 rotations. It's a pretty good set up if the students have decent skills.

One pet peeve of mine: students who check out when it's not their turn on the mat. Watching other people work their pattern does a couple of things. First, you can learn so much from watching other people handle. Really, I think that a lot of people learn more from watching than from performing. Secondly, classes are a dress rehearsal for competition. If people don't watch and pay attention, both the handler and the dog performing get ripped off of the opportunity to deal with the focus being on them, much like it will be in competition. The sensation of being watched can be a bit unnerving. Better to adjust to it in training than run snack-dab into it at a trial. As a courtesy, classmates should watch the other run throughs.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I wish that "Intro to Rally" classes had no signs at all. Along MrsBoats lines, dogs need to understand heeling, fronting, and finishing. Without being solid on those skills, rally is just a total bust. I hate watching people drag their dogs around with a tight leash or a cookie plastered to their dog's nose and think that they are making progress. Heeling, fronting, and finishing. If you can teach that, the rest of the signs are just doodles and cute tricks.


This is why dogs where I train need some prerequisites and the approval of the instructor to attend the rally class. Watson and I repeated one of the prerequisite classes 3 or 4 times when he was young before we moved on. There are things you need to know before you add the signs.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Yeah...all of the dogs who come into my rally classes either come from my CGC prep class...or Basic 1 or Basic 2. Sometimes after some intro to rally classes, all I want to do is go home and plow through a bottle of wine. LOL


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> Yeah...all of the dogs who come into my rally classes either come from my CGC prep class...or Basic 1 or Basic 2. Sometimes after some intro to rally classes, all I want to do is go home and plow through a bottle of wine. LOL


I am beginning to wonder if we were separated at birth...


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

ROFLMAO!!

My long lost twin sister!!!!!!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

All kidding aside, it's really, really important to remember what it was like to be new to training and dog sports. Without a doubt, I did all of the things that now drive me crazy. It takes someone very special to be able to keep classes fun in the face of frustration. I adore good teachers. Keeping things interesting and light-hearted while still advancing peoples' skillsets is hard to do. I applaud the people who can get the job done.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Yes...all kidding aside, I haven't been in dog sports all that long and you do have to keep in mind how is it to be a newbie. I use the newbie mistakes I made to make my students better dog handlers by heading those off at the pass at the start. 

A lot of people get into dog training and teaching and think how much fun it is to teach dogs. But...you're not going to be training dogs...you are training people. You HAVE to be good at explaining stuff to people to be a great instructor. There are a lot of great dog trainers who are not people persons...and they SUCK at being instructors. You have to have great people skills in place yourself to be a good instructor. Luckily...years of retail garden center experience and doing landscape design/garden coaching has taught me to interact with and teach people of all sorts of walks of life. 

Good instructors also can relay information in a way that all skill set levels can understand. Having a group class and having it run successfully is like a good juggling act. You can't spend too much time on explaining one exercise, on one dog handler/team, and you cannot have too much down time where everyone is standing around twiddling their thumbs. Students aren't happy unless they feel they are getting what they spent on a class....and they won't be shy about letting you know if they aren't happy. Class has to be run like a well oiled machine where it's moving smoothly with both sufficient but easily understood information and activity for the students. Each class is different...I had one intro to rally class once where no one would watch their dogs, work on what I told them while they were in the ring, and they would just stand around like it was an on leash play class. (I didn't even wait to get home one of those nights to drink...that was a glass of wine in the school office night after drop ins.) I wanted to knock them all out every night for 6 weeks. Then I would get a class where I could get more into the knitty gritty of handling a dog, or helping the dog out with body cues while working them because they could handle that information better and was much more interested than my average rally class usually is. I love it when I get a class like that.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

every class around here is level based, so 6-8 weeks Novice, 6-8 weeks advanced etc.. I prefer this as I am usually focused on a specific level, and I work on upper things at home anyway. I like classes focased on trials with practices that include the signs and cones and such. my first class skipped the whole signs and cones thing, throwing Gem waayyyy off when she saw them at a fun match, these were new objects to her, she had no idea what to do or not do with them!


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

I have taken a couple Rally classes and now regularly attend drop-in sessions. I first started Rally because I was doing agility with one dog (Zoey) and I wanted something to do with the other one (Luke) as well. So I tried it out, he loved it so we kept at it and he got his RN in December. 

When I started Intro to Rally with Luke the only formal class we had taken before that was a basic Level 1 obedience class when he was a year old. The class was 6 weeks long, the first week we discussed what Rally is, were introduced to the basic signs and practiced those signs. The instructor also provided a handout packet that listed all of the AKC signs and how to perform them and after class she would send an email that listed which new signs we learned. The next 4 weeks we would come to class, review any questions about previously learned signs, be introduced to a couple new signs and practice them, then run a short course that included new and old signs. She would follow up with the email reminding which new signs we learned. That packet helped immensely when practicing at home, in case you forgot how to do the sign. The last week we didn't learn any new signs, did a little review and warm up and then ran a novice course, and our instructor judging us so we could see how we would score and where we were losing points. I don't remember how many signs we got through but I'm pretty sure we learned at least a few advanced signs at the end.

The one thing that I wish I had done more work on at the beginning was heeling, because that is our weakness. She didn't at the time I started Rally but now my instructor teaches a class she calls Heeling and Maneuvers which she recommends prior to taking the Intro to Rally class, which I think is a great idea. I have heard people say really good things about it too, so we may end up taking it.

After her Intro class I took her Advanced class, which she will offer if she has enough interest, and we learned more advanced and excellent signs. It was similar in structure to the first class, where we would learn new signs, practice them then run a course that included them. She still did the follow up emails letting us know which new signs we learned and if we ran a full course she would email us a copy of the course we ran as well. 

Now I attend drop-in run throughs at the local obedience club for practice. I pay $10 and get to run the course they setup a few times depending on how many people are there. Last night there was only one other person there and I had both my dogs so I ran the course 3 times each dog. Whoever is facilitating the drop in can help with any questions. The instructor I started with also does outdoor drop-ins when the weather is nice and we will meet at a park somewhere and run through a course. I love those because it's great for working with distractions. One night we were running our course next to a soccer field with a game going on.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Oh...that is one thing I forgot to mention - handouts. At the beginning of class, I do print and give out the novice rally sign descriptions from the AKC rally regs. That is helpful for students if they miss a class or they want to practice at home. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> Oh...that is one thing I forgot to mention - handouts. At the beginning of class, I do print and give out the novice rally sign descriptions from the AKC rally regs. That is helpful for students if they miss a class or they want to practice at home.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It was so helpful for practicing at home. I still take my packet with me to trials so if I'm not sure about something I can look it up.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

One fun idea I have for rally instructors that I will do next time around: Plan a Rally Class Field Trip. Take the students to a trial and watch the rally classes. The earlier, the better. Let the students see what it looks like to trial and have that picture in their mind as they train. Would be fun!


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## BlackHaus (Nov 11, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I always forget how much goes into working dogs correctly...even in rally. I always forget that people who are 98% pet dog owners in my intro rally class...don't know any of that second nature stuff I do with my dogs. Be prepared to share a lot of info and spend a lot of time with the class on stuff that is incredibly basic. I'm not sure if this is your first time teaching a class...I find teaching incredibly fun and incredibly frustrating sometimes (with the owners) but I have a great time doing it.


Thank you! I think this is the part that kind of went over my head when I was initially thinking of a course outline. This is my first time teaching a group class, and lately my only group training has been with either my coworkers or training club members, who are (for the most part) not novices. I greatly enjoy dealing with our clients on a daily basis, but we are now deciding to try running some group classes and see how it goes, so the combination is both new and exciting. I think I got a bit ahead of myself and assumed spending 6 weeks on Rally Novice would bore most of the class.  

I've decided to spend at least the first two weeks on the basics: attention/focus, heeling, finishes. We unfortunately won't be having any prerequisite classes leading up to this one since this is new, if I'm lucky I'll have clients sign up whose dogs I am already familiar with and can kind of gauge where they are from there, lol. Breaking it down into baby steps will help me too with the slight anxiety that comes with not wanting to completely bomb this course, and if everyone progresses quicker than expected I can adjust from there. It should be a fun learning experience, that's for sure.


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## BlackHaus (Nov 11, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> One fun idea I have for rally instructors that I will do next time around: Plan a Rally Class Field Trip. Take the students to a trial and watch the rally classes. The earlier, the better. Let the students see what it looks like to trial and have that picture in their mind as they train. Would be fun!



I think the first week that we're hoping to have class start I have a trial that following weekend, unfortunately it's an hour away, but that's still a great idea! Could help relieve some of the "novice jitters".


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I recommend the students that are actually interested in doing rally watch runs on YouTube to get an idea of what it is. I've been teaching rally for about 7 years now...and I would say, probably 1 student out of every 50 actually continue on with the drop in classes. So, be prepared for not a lot of follow through with pet dog owners with rally. Competition people usually don't take an intro to rally class...they just show up with their puppies to the drop in. 

Since you are new to teaching...it will take you a while to hammer out the details of your classes to where you are happy with how they run. It took me about 1 year to get things hammered out...and another year on top of that for me to feel comfortable in my teaching skin. Public speaking wasn't something I was great at with a group of people. I'll talk your ear off if there's one or two people. 8 in a class setting...that took some getting used to. But, now...totally not an issue. Teaching rally/CGC classes had really helped me get over my public speaking issues. I regularly give lectures on gardening for garden clubs now and I had to address the entire Rhode Island Nursery and Landscape Association of over 300 strong at their annual meeting for a couple of years while I was Vice President, President, and Past President. Teaching those rally classes helped out big time with that.


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## BlackHaus (Nov 11, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I recommend the students that are actually interested in doing rally watch runs on YouTube to get an idea of what it is. I've been teaching rally for about 7 years now...and I would say, probably 1 student out of every 50 actually continue on with the drop in classes. So, be prepared for not a lot of follow through with pet dog owners with rally. Competition people usually don't take an intro to rally class...they just show up with their puppies to the drop in.


Good point. I think that it only makes more sense for me to really work on the basics then, and for those who are interested in competing offering drop-ins on another night or something. I never took classes for Rally, I just googled the signs, read the rules, and then decided to wing it and enter trials.. lol.

I can talk dogs with someone all day, and fortunately I do work with a lot of our boarding/training/daycare clients, but typically on a 1 to 1 basis so the new dynamic should be quite interesting.  Thank you again for the insight!


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I wouldn't personally take a class, but one of the things I would like to see in a class dedicated to getting people ready for trialling, is how to get fluency and how to reduce the number of rewards they give their dog. Not just making the dog work for longer, but also using exercises that the dog finds fun as rewards between real rewards. Also to stay focused on the handler while walking into the ring, ignoring other people (distraction training), and that the reward is always waiting on the outside of the ring, i.e. the dog doesn't actually get rewarded in the ring.

I would assume that anyone taking a rally class would already have all the basic obedience exercises in place. Once a dog knows to heel, there is no reason to teach it to heel in a specific pattern, which is what I've seen done in some rally classes. I would work on making the behaviours stronger in general, rather than drilling the actual rally exercises. Learning the signs is also important.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I talk to a lot of "General pet people" about classes so I have to say, while focusing on foundations and basic stuff is good, mix it up, show the the fancy stuff it leads too, of all the people I have talked too who did not follow through, every one of them said they dropped it because they were bored out of there minds, they wanted to have fun with their dog and basic stuff is BORING.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Miss Bugs said:


> I talk to a lot of "General pet people" about classes so I have to say, while focusing on foundations and basic stuff is good, mix it up, show the the fancy stuff it leads too, of all the people I have talked too who did not follow through, every one of them said they dropped it because they were bored out of there minds, they wanted to have fun with their dog and basic stuff is BORING.


Addressing the boring issue:

Especially for a RN course, keep the atmosphere light and fluffy. One way to do this is around week 3 or 4, determine which exercise the students are having the most trouble with. Say, just for example, it's the in-about turn. At the end of the class review the proper procedure so it's all fresh in their minds, then announce a friendly contest to be judged at the start of the following week: best in-about turn receives a GREAT prize. Use your imagination for the prize, but a couple of ideas might be ... a bottle of Baileys! or dinner for two! or whatever. Build it up, the more drama the better. This part is about MOTIVATING the students.

At the start of the following week, ask the students WHO went home and practiced hard in the interim? because, practice makes perfect. My bet is that the students will all proudly exclaim "I did !!! I did !!!". Acknowledge that. Then let the judging begin, one by one. Award the student who you believe has improved the most compared to the week before ... with a TINY airplane bottle of Baileys, or a box of Kraft Dinner, or even two free-sample packs of dog kibble ound:. Giggle, laugh, and then review how discovering and employing the right motivator is an important key to success. 

Having fun with the STUDENTS, *somehow*, is the TEACHER'S JOB.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Miss Bugs said:


> I talk to a lot of "General pet people" about classes so I have to say, while focusing on foundations and basic stuff is good, mix it up, show the the fancy stuff it leads too, of all the people I have talked too who did not follow through, every one of them said they dropped it because they were bored out of there minds, they wanted to have fun with their dog and basic stuff is BORING.


This is a big problem with obedience classes, and is why many pet people choose agility over obedience. Obedience classes very quickly fall into drilling the basics, and unless you're very interested in doing obedience, you will drop out due to boredom.

This is a problem with the classes though, not a problem with obedience. All dog training should be loads of fun for both the owner and the dog when done correctly. Engagement training is fun and can be used for obedience exercises. Toy rewards or food play over food rewards, and more and shorter reps are another way to keep it fun, rather than a few looooong reps that just ends in the dog getting a treat. Training in drive is loads of fun for everyone.


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## BlackHaus (Nov 11, 2013)

Well, the first week of class starts this Wednesday and I have 10 (!!!) teams signed up. To say I'm a little nervous at this point may be an understatement. I am familiar with some of the dogs/handlers which helps some, and the rest I haven't met yet.

I was told to keep things really basic for the first couple of weeks, but at the same time I don't want to make things too boring, either. I think the first week is going to be the most difficult as I don't really know what to expect, and where everyone is in obedience so I'm having a hard time planning it out. I am going to be giving everyone a packet of signs and descriptions in the beginning, as well as a quick overview of Rally. I will have Odin with me as a demo dog, just in case.

My thought is to just set up two identical "courses" featuring a start, and then either a halt-sit or halt-sit-down sign, and then a finish. A very basic way of both reviewing simple exercises (heel/sit/down), but showing it in relation to Rally. 

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how to fit focus work into it. For me personally, it's something I do when warming up before a trial. I've considered using it as an exercise in the beginning of class. Thoughts?

I'm super excited to get started this week, but also really hoping I don't bomb it either. :doh:

So here's what I'm thinking:

- Focus/attention warm up
- Review basics (sit/down/stay/recall/.. finishes?)
- Run super mini basic courses (1-3 signs depending)


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