# He attacked me again!



## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

Just recently adopted a stray dog, non-neutered male, supposedly 3 years old, supposedly border collie. Everyone in the neighbourhood says he never attacked anyone before, he used to be a smart, gentle dog. But since the adoption his behaviour has become assertive. He did attempt to attack a few other people on the street, those who attemted to cuddle him. But also we had three biting accidents so far, where his aggression was directed towards me, his owner.

The first was right when I put the collar and the leash on him for the first time. He started to pull, trying to break free. Frustrated that he couldn't, he growled at me, then attempted to bite me by the hand. He only managed to grab the glove, I let him have it, then shouted at him.

The second was entirely my fault, I suppose. He was chewing the bone the next day at home. I was in a hurry to take him somewhere, so I pushed the bone away from with my leg. He suddenly bit my leg and barked once (the first and only time he barked so far). I yelled at him, he sat and left the bone alone.

Then for a few days he didn't show any aggression towards me at all.

The third, the most recent one, happened today. We were on the walk, then he noticed a small doggie approaching. I couldn't see the owner, so I decided not to risk it, and pulled him away with a leash. He started growling (I'm not sure if he was growling at the dog or at me at this point), but complied. Then he stood on his hind legs and put his front legs on me, as he loves to do all the time. I started cuddling him, and he suddenly growled then bit my left forearm. I yelled at him, pulled the left hand away and pulled him away by the leash with my right hand, probably enough to strangle him a bit for a second, but I'm not sure. After he was back on the ground, he growled a bit, then calmed down. We continued to walk as normal then. After coming home, I noticed that he actually managed to bite through my coat and leave one small puncture on my skin. First time he had any success biting me.

I'm worried. What was that? Was that his desire to mate (provided the other dog was a female) or typical border collie attempt to challenge his master? Or is he simply not happy with me for some reason? What is the chance he will launch a full-scale attack (you know, bite to kill kind)? What can I do then? Or if he attacks me when I'm home without the protective coat and he's not on a leash so I can't pull him away? Can I trust him not to attack without provocation? And finally, can I inhibit his aggression?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Are you in an area where you can find a decent trainer? One that is both experienced in dealing with dogs with aggression or guarding issues and uses positive or generally positive methods? 

I don't think biting or trying to bite a person is part of a border collie's personality. I've met some that nip to herd and one who is a resource guarder that will bite (over a resource, but not human aggressive out of the blue) There are very few breeds specifically bred for human aggression. But a street dog could be very wary of humans easily enough.

I notice that you mention cuddling him; not a lot of dogs like to be cuddle. Friendly and well socialized dogs will tolerate it- for ex. my dog Chester will put up with being hugged and held close by me or a stranger, but he is simply tolerating it. Luna the Pit LOVES to be cuddled and will seek it out, pressing herself against me or crawling into my lap etc. If a dog doesn't seek out cuddling, don't do it. 

It sounds (but of course none of us can see what happened) like there was "provocation" each time. For example, in the most recent incident, you cuddled him (stressful probably) and he growled to warn you to release him, when you didn't, he bit you. Not appropriate of course, but not completely unprovoked (in his mind) either.

Many dogs that bite can be rehabbed, some bite from resource guarding, others from stress, and some from medical problems (pain can make a dog touchy, thyroid problems can cause aggression) etc. But it sounds like you have more on your hands than internet advice can deal with.


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

Shell said:


> Are you in an area where you can find a decent trainer? One that is both experienced in dealing with dogs with aggression or guarding issues and uses positive or generally positive methods?


A trainer? Yes. Experienced with aggression? Yes. Positive methods? Unlikely.



Shell said:


> I notice that you mention cuddling him; not a lot of dogs like to be cuddle. Friendly and well socialized dogs will tolerate it- for ex. my dog Chester will put up with being hugged and held close by me or a stranger, but he is simply tolerating it. Luna the Pit LOVES to be cuddled and will seek it out, pressing herself against me or crawling into my lap etc. If a dog doesn't seek out cuddling, don't do it.


I am under impression he likes it very much. He stands on his hind legs and puts his front legs on my chest, looking me in the eyes, letting the tongue out and wagging his tail. Does that mean he's asking for cuddling or could he be possibly asking for something else? He also has a nasty habit of attacking from that very position.



Shell said:


> But it sounds like you have more on your hands than internet advice can deal with.


You're probably right. Too bad I'm low on money for the trainer, but I guess I will have to manage somehow.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> I am under impression he likes it very much. He stands on his hind legs and puts his front legs on my chest, looking me in the eyes, letting the tongue out and wagging his tail. Does that mean he's asking for cuddling or could he be possibly asking for something else? He also has a nasty habit of attacking from that very position.


Well, I can't say what your dog is asking for, but it isn't necessarily cuddling/holding closely. Chester does something similar when he wants dinner (if I am sitting, he comes up and puts both paws on my lap or shoulders if he can reach). My opinion is that unless a dog is basically crawling into your lap and settling down there, then they probably aren't asking for cuddling. 

Since you've only had the dog a week, start with building trust. Don't do anything forceful- no cuddling, no dragging along on a leash etc. Sit near the dog and drop treats for him to take. Let him choose to come to you. Let him initiate interaction and if he growls, remember that is a warning sign to STOP whatever you are doing. Never punish a growl.

Don't take any food or treat away from him- remember that if he has been a stray, he's had to defend his food from other dogs and animals. He doesn't yet know that you are any different from those dogs on the street that would take his food. Slowly start the trading-up: don't start with taking away a bone, start with something like just coming near his food while giving him a really awesome treat like cheese or a hot dog piece. Don't reach down, just walk by and drop the treat. 

Take EVERYTHING really slowly. Finding a good trainer would be best, I really don't know how well someone can give advice like this in text and I wouldn't want to encourage something that makes things worse (as in, something might have worked on one dog but maybe your dog has a completely different issue); but taking things slow and calm and building trust cannot hurt to begin with. 

Everything above is just my suggestions, I'm not a trainer and cannot see your dog's actions.


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

Shell said:


> Well, I can't say what your dog is asking for, but it isn't necessarily cuddling/holding closely. Chester does something similar when he wants dinner (if I am sitting, he comes up and puts both paws on my lap or shoulders if he can reach). My opinion is that unless a dog is basically crawling into your lap and settling down there, then they probably aren't asking for cuddling.


Interesting, I'll try to watch him closer. Sometimes after getting a good walk and enough food he stops that practice and just goes to sleep. Could this mean?.. 



Shell said:


> Since you've only had the dog a week, start with building trust. Don't do anything forceful- no cuddling, no dragging along on a leash etc. Sit near the dog and drop treats for him to take. Let him choose to come to you. Let him initiate interaction and if he growls, remember that is a warning sign to STOP whatever you are doing.


I'm trying to do just that. Except that I didn't consider growl a warning. He has a very short growling period, too. He would growl no more than a second before biting. Also, he's very good on the leash, seems like he received leash training before. He needs only a gentle pull to change direction. Generally, I prefer him to lead the way while walking, unless our interests contradict each other. He was pulling regularly for the first two days, but now these cases are rare and exceptional, when there's something _very_ interesting for him. Come to think of it, there was another possible aggression case when he was standing just like that and I was cuddling him, he growled and I let him go. He stopped. I thought I mistook something else for a growl, but what if I didn't?



Shell said:


> Never punish a growl.


Huh? Seriously? Okay.



Shell said:


> Take EVERYTHING really slowly. Finding a good trainer would be best, I really don't know how well someone can give advice like this in text and I wouldn't want to encourage something that makes things worse (as in, something might have worked on one dog but maybe your dog has a completely different issue); but taking things slow and calm and building trust cannot hurt to begin with.
> 
> Everything above is just my suggestions, I'm not a trainer and cannot see your dog's actions.


Note taken. Still, thanks very much for your input. You gave me something to ponder. I will try to find a trainer.


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

You never want to punish a growl. A grown is the warning that comes before snapping and biting. Punish a dog for growling, and he will skip the growling and go straight to biting.

And I don't think he was being aggressive when you were cuddling him and he was growling, he was simply telling you to back off. You only got this dog recently, he barely knows you. Give him time and go slooooow. Like others said, don't force anything. Some dogs are just never comfortable with cuddles and close affection.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Here is a good article about why not to punish a growl: http://www.examiner.com/dog-training-and-behavior-in-orlando/thank-your-dog-for-growling


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

Hey, also my good friend who had some experience with dogs just told me that if the dog is aggressive at that age, he cannot be "reconfigured" and that he wouldn't risk keeping the dog. This is not true, is it?


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

Septi said:


> Hey, also my good friend who had some experience with dogs just told me that if the dog is aggressive at that age, he cannot be "reconfigured" and that he wouldn't risk keeping the dog. This is not true, is it?


Absolutely false. Don't believe that for a second, especially since your dog hasn't really shown signs of aggression. He is just settling in and needs some training, in my opinion.


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> Absolutely false. Don't believe that for a second, especially since your dog hasn't really shown signs of aggression. He is just settling in and needs some training, in my opinion.


Thank you  And thanks to you and Crantastic for clearing out the matter with growling. I wonder if the growling reflex can somehow be restored? Should it be restored then?

By the way, when he lies on the floor, and I reach out to him, and he is on his back then, spreading his legs, does at least that mean "cuddle me please"? Or can it have other meanings too?

Is there any general way to figure out whether the dog likes whatever I'm doing or just tolerates?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Some dogs like being hugged, but many don't. He may want you to rub his belly, but probably not "cuddle." 

"The Other End of the Leash" is an excellent book by applied animal behaviorist Patricia McConnell. You may want to check out -- it taught me a lot about how dogs communicate. They are so different from us humans in a lot of ways!


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Skip the "cuddling". When he rolls on his back, try gently rubbing his belly and between his front legs. Avoid 'hovering" directly over him. Don't hug him. Do hand feed him treats/dinner. it'll help with resource guarding (like with the bone).
Practice trading up games. Give him something of much higher value, while saying "drop it" or "give". Then give him back whatever you traded for and let him enjoy it in peace.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Septi said:


> typical border collie attempt to challenge his master?


Huh? Border collies are bred to cooperate with their master, not challenge them. They're generally highly biddable, and although they are often challenging to own, it's usually because they try to outsmart their owners at every opportunity, not because of aggression. I would say that yours is probably an exception, rather than fairly typical of the breed.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

These three situations don't sound too alarming to me. They all happened under stress. They all involved resourses or re-directed frustrations/aggression. All of them sound like they were the result of a nervous/pent up dog.

My guess would be that if you exercise the dog more, give the dog another couple of weeks to adjust, and work on your dog's leash reactivity, you will be fine. You have a new relationship and (it sounds like) a dog with few training skills. It's pretty "normal" for an amped up dog to grab whatever he can when he is focused on something that's revving him up. 

Now, this assumes that your "bites" did not result in skin-breaking puncture wounds and that the dog let you go as soon as he came to his senses. 

I would try to exercise your dog in low-traffic areas or at low-traffic times until some of the newness of the relationship wears off. I am a big fan of training classes to help desensitize a dog to the presence of other dogs. And while border collies are certainly biddable, they also have a reputation for being on the reactive side. Most of this sounds like reactivily, especially if they were soft bites.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Is there any general way to figure out whether the dog likes whatever I'm doing or just tolerates?


Yes, for sure I would say that if he bites you chances are he doesn't like it. Time is needed, more distraction free quiet time for you and your new dog. 

I missed something, how come everybody in the neighborhood know your recently adopted dog. You do realize that if you keep this dog there will be plenty of time to cuddle since this seems to be very important to you. *Leave it go for now.*


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Septi said:


> I'm trying to do just that. Except that I didn't consider growl a warning. He has a very short growling period, too. He would growl no more than a second before biting. Also, he's very good on the leash, seems like he received leash training before. .


NEVER EVER punish a growl, it IS a warning and the more it gets punished the shorter it will get until he goes DIRECTLY to bite! 

You need to desensitize to the collar and to anything else he shows fear (yes, this is FEAR) toward. He needs POSITIVE associations to new things. 

Where are you loacated? We can try to find a behavioral trainer (or veterinary behaviorist) to help you. I also highly reccomend you desensitize him to a muzzle for his safety and the safety of others and get a FULL veterinary exam INCLUDING BLOODWORK for Thyroid, tick-born illnesses, eye exam (especailly for glaucoma) and heart exam. Often fear and anxiety (resulting in aggression) are a result of underlying health conditions.

I also HIGHLY reccomend you get some information on dog body language so you can recognize his stress signs BEFORE he starts growling. Look in hte training section under the "reccomended reading" thread, there are several good books and book/video combos that could help listed there.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

If someone placed a stack of $100 bills on your desk and then started walking by and taking one away how long would it take before you'd slap their hand when they reached for the money? Resource guarding. Now if they walked by and added $50 each time you didnt smack them you'd start to relax, right? Its the same way with our dogs, especially one that may have had to defend his food from others. Now teach him its okay, walk by and drop those $50's...probably better to use yummy treats  

My 3 year old Saint Bernard will resource guard certain things. He will give a warning growl and lift his lips if he has something so high value and someone tries to remove it. This does not make him mean, vicious, aggressive or a bad dog it makes him a dog that wants to keep what he has. For the safety of the children in my home, those things I know he resource guards are only offered when the kids are at school or in bed. As these items are given regularly he's learning he doesnt have to guard them, that even though I may remove them I will give them back another time and that when I take them I give something really yummy (freeze dried beef liver is very high value to him). 

With Buster there are a lot of warnings before he growls. He'll stiffen and get this really tense look to him. Ignore that and he'll start to lift his lips. Then you'll hear him rumble. No one has pushed him beyond that. We then go back and try to figure out WHY he felt the need to give these warnings. In one case it was my teenage daughter taking him by the collar to move him when he was laying somewhere comfortable. When SHE stopped using his collar to guide him, he stopped growling at her. She can still move him, she just has to use the right cues (treats while we were teaching him to listen to her didnt hurt). I dont believe he had a desire to harm her or even scare her, he was simply telling her "I dont like that". Retrain the kid, get her more involved in his care (build TRUST between them) and the issue has disappeared. This is a 125lb teenage girl handling a 140lb male Saint Bernard. 

I cant comment on the redirected aggression, thats something I have never experienced.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I think the thing to remember in re-directed aggression is that the bite is really going to the object the dog is focusing on. Emotionally, the dog is biting the on-coming dog or the squirrel. It's about loss of focus, wigging out. It's not human aggression in the least.

Now, biting isn't okay. I am not suggesting that it is. Success lies in managing the dog better. Use the leash instead of a collar grab. Avoid craziness or provoking situations. Desensitize the dog. Burn off excess energy. Teach behaviors that focus and calm (or at least distract) the dog.

And sometimes you just learn to deal with it. I have a spicey female. I know that if I grab her when she's tustling with a dog, I WILL be bitten. So, I keep her from tustling with other dogs. If there's an accident, I use the collar she's wearing. If I can't get to the collar, I will be bitten. And that's just plain my fault for not managing the situation. My fault.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

You are moving WAY TOO FAST. This is a problem I see again and again. People get a new dog and expect that the instant they get the dog, they're going to have this perfect, close, loving relationship. Instantaneously.

This is not going to happen.

Those relationships take a long time to develop, they don't just happen. They're based on time and trust and experience. Which you don't have because you've had the dog a week. What's a week? It's no time at all.

Back off. Stop cuddling. Stop pushing things. Stop insisting on this relationship that doesn't exist, and may never exist if you don't give the dog a reason to trust you- by not doing stuff that scares him, like cuddling and taking away his stuff and yelling at him when he reacts to scary things you do.

Read anything by Ian Dunbar and Culture Clash. Do not get a trainer if the methods aren't positive. Punishment based training is not going to help you with a stray that doesn't trust you.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Amaryllis said:


> You are moving WAY TOO FAST. This is a problem I see again and again. People get a new dog and expect that the instant they get the dog, they're going to have this perfect, close, loving relationship. Instantaneously.
> 
> This is not going to happen.
> 
> ...


I make a bunch of replies telling people to back off their new dogs and expecting instant trust/love etc etc etc. If I let a couple strangers in my house I'm an idiot if I go out to watch the sunrise while strangers are there. Would you meet an attractive stranger and then just immediately start hugging/cuddling/whatever with them, trust me it's just not gonna happen. The difference is your new strange dog does not have many options. Read the above quote then read it again


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Some dogs like being hugged, but many don't. He may want you to rub his belly, but probably not "cuddle."


Oh, how could I have been so stupid? You see, I'm not a native English speaker, and I used the word "cuddle" in place of "pet" every time! In other words, his reactions were not to cuddling (we do cuddle sometimes, it was okay now, but I'm trying not to overdo it, not because the dog does not trust me enough, but more because I don't trust him enough yet), but to simply petting his head. Sorry for the confusion. How bad is it?



Crantastic said:


> "The Other End of the Leash" is an excellent book by applied animal behaviorist Patricia McConnell. You may want to check out -- it taught me a lot about how dogs communicate. They are so different from us humans in a lot of ways!


I'm currently reading Pat Miller's "The Power of Positive Dog Training". Seems like a very good book, it opened my eyes on a lot of things. I'll try to get "The Other End of the Leash" too, thanks.



spotted nikes said:


> Skip the "cuddling". When he rolls on his back, try gently rubbing his belly and between his front legs. Avoid 'hovering" directly over him. Don't hug him. Do hand feed him treats/dinner. it'll help with resource guarding (like with the bone).
> Practice trading up games. Give him something of much higher value, while saying "drop it" or "give". Then give him back whatever you traded for and let him enjoy it in peace.


That's how I pet him when he's on the ground. Did not have an accident there. Yeah, I guess drop command is important, he sometimes picks the stuff up on the street.



GottaLuvMutts said:


> Huh? Border collies are bred to cooperate with their master, not challenge them. They're generally highly biddable, and although they are often challenging to own, it's usually because they try to outsmart their owners at every opportunity, not because of aggression. I would say that yours is probably an exception, rather than fairly typical of the breed.


I also read that border collie are smart enough to see when owner is backing out from their aggression and associate it with "if I act aggressively, I can avoid being handled/cuddled/whatever".



trainingjunkie said:


> Now, this assumes that your "bites" did not result in skin-breaking puncture wounds and that the dog let you go as soon as he came to his senses.


That's the point: he bit right through the coat and left a very small skin puncture. I didn't even know there was a puncture until I came home. He did let go of me quickly though.



wvasko said:


> Yes, for sure I would say that if he bites you chances are he doesn't like it.


Thanks, Captain 



wvasko said:


> I missed something, how come everybody in the neighborhood know your recently adopted dog.


Well, he was around from a couple of weeks to a month. Seems like after all, he did bite once during that time. A woman says she didn't provoke him, but she could do it unwillingly. And, you know, I don't like her. I would probably bite her too, lol.



wvasko said:


> You do realize that if you keep this dog there will be plenty of time to cuddle since this seems to be very important to you. *Leave it go for now.*


I'm not in a hurry, I just thought he was asking for it. I thought he wants me to pet him a little to relieve stress.



cshellenberger said:


> NEVER EVER punish a growl, it IS a warning and the more it gets punished the shorter it will get until he goes DIRECTLY to bite!


Very well, never ever will. Does softly (although "softly" can vary depending on the situation) pulling the dog away by the leash mean punishment to the dog? As in the situation when perceived threat is already in the dog's biting reach and dense enough to not back off (especially considering terribly short growling time)?



cshellenberger said:


> Where are you loacated? We can try to find a behavioral trainer (or veterinary behaviorist) to help you.


Russia, Krasnoyarsk.



cshellenberger said:


> I also highly reccomend you desensitize him to a muzzle for his safety and the safety of others and get a FULL veterinary exam INCLUDING BLOODWORK for Thyroid, tick-born illnesses, eye exam (especailly for glaucoma) and heart exam. Often fear and anxiety (resulting in aggression) are a result of underlying health conditions.


Good idea, I'll see what I can do. But I'm currently terribly low on money.



cshellenberger said:


> I also HIGHLY reccomend you get some information on dog body language so you can recognize his stress signs BEFORE he starts growling. Look in hte training section under the "reccomended reading" thread, there are several good books and book/video combos that could help listed there.


I'll take a look at that 



Amaryllis said:


> You are moving WAY TOO FAST. This is a problem I see again and again. People get a new dog and expect that the instant they get the dog, they're going to have this perfect, close, loving relationship. Instantaneously.
> 
> This is not going to happen.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice, I think you are right in pretty much everything. I'm ready to wait, but I'm afraid that some special measures are needed before his aggression escalates.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Septi said:


> Oh, how could I have been so stupid? You see, I'm not a native English speaker, and I used the word "cuddle" in place of "pet" every time! In other words, his reactions were not to cuddling (we do cuddle sometimes, it was okay now, but I'm trying not to overdo it, not because the dog does not trust me enough, but more because I don't trust him enough yet), but to simply petting his head. Sorry for the confusion. How bad is it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't reach over his head to pet him, it can be threatening to a dog, instead come along side of him and pet hte neck, rub the ears (from behind) and pet the body.

If he's reacting to other dogs, cut off his line of site and use your body to turn him away from the percieved threat instead of yanking on the leash. Find someone with a STABLE dog and start working on the links I'll provide below. Get a copy of "Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas so you can stop his reations before they escalate to aggression (which is redirected to you) and a Copy of "Mine" to work on hte Resource gaurding 

Turid has a great website as well, http://www.canis.no/rugaas/

Training excercises that may help:


Desensitizing dogs

Loose leash walking

teaching "Leave It"

The biggest thing you need to do however is to start training useing positive reenforcers so you gain TRUST with this dog and build a relationship.


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

cshellenberger said:


> Don't reach over his head to pet him, it can be threatening to a dog, instead come along side of him and pet hte neck, rub the ears (from behind) and pet the body.


I had no idea, I'm usually starting from over the head. And that time I was most likely doing it like that too. That could be (part of) my mistake. If I move my hand over his head after petting his neck, will this be a threat too?

*EDIT: * I've been just told a minute ago that reaching over his head means telling him I am the alpha. Is this correct and can there be good moments to do it?



cshellenberger said:


> If he's reacting to other dogs, cut off his line of site and use your body to turn him away from the percieved threat instead of yanking on the leash.


He usually doesn't, unless they show aggression. And even then he's often calm. This was me reacting to the dog, because there was no owner and my dog isn't rabies-vaccinated yet.

Thank you for a lot of links, I'll try to read as much as I can.



cshellenberger said:


> The biggest thing you need to do however is to start training useing positive reenforcers so you gain TRUST with this dog and build a relationship.


Right... I'll be working right on it.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Septi said:


> I had no idea, I'm usually starting from over the head. And that time I was most likely doing it like that too. That could be (part of) my mistake. If I move my hand over his head after petting his neck, will this be a threat too?
> 
> *EDIT: * I've been just told a minute ago that reaching over his head means telling him I am the alpha. Is this correct and can there be good moments to do it?


 
Throw the alpha crap out of your vocabulary, it's a THREAT to come over the head from the front plain and simple, to dogs it's a RUDE gesture. If you come upon his head from behind it should be ok, but work up to it slowly. You can be a leader for your dog or you can be a tyrant, have your dog follow out of love and respect or out of fear. Just remember when a being obeys out of fear there can be backlash.


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

cshellenberger said:


> Throw the alpha crap out of your vocabulary, it's a THREAT to come over the head from the front plain and simple, to dogs it's a RUDE gesture. If you come upon his head from behind it should be ok, but work up to it slowly. You can be a leader for your dog or you can be a tyrant, have your dog follow out of love and respect or out of fear. Just remember when a being obeys out of fear there can be backlash.


So, when we choose to train dogs in a positive manner, there's no need for domination? Around me I have a great number of sources that teach to dominate over the dog, make it submit. Internet is my only source on positive training at the moment.

There is one more problem I should have mentioned earlier. A year ago I had a very strong cynophobia. I literally couldn't be anywhere near dogs. Every bark made me jump on spot. I avoided all interactions with dogs I could. If the dog was in my way, regardless of what it looked like, I always found a way around the dog, even if that meant walking thrice as much.

However, when I met the love of my life, I had to adjust, because she had a small doggie. He wasn't aggressive and I don't honestly think he can bite, but for months I flinched to every his bark. Then we were separated and reunited a little more than half a year ago. It was then that the problem became inescapable, because in the time we didn't meet she adopted a puppy that has grown to be a large and rather aggressive (or should I say fearful) dog. I had to adapt to that, and in that I think I succeeded. In time I took some responsibilities over the dogs, like walking and playing. I didn't get to train them much because, one, I didn't have access to dog treats and didn't want to buy them myself, and two, we had a lot of disagreements about how exactly should the dogs be trained.

I was getting more comfortable in the presence of dogs. I thought I can handle it, and I still think I can. So far I don't think I "submitted" to this dog's aggression (as in, I didn't run away, make scared postures or anything), while I did try to stop provoking him every time. But I admit I feel quite uncomfortable sometimes when the dog is approaching close enough to make biting possible. I try my best to hide it, but it could be that dogs are still Eldritch Abominations for me on some subconscious level.

There's a saying that dog can always feel your fear. I don't know how to measure how much afraid I am or if I'm just wary. And I don't know how much is enough to make the situation dangerous. But on the other hand, this is a great opportunity to deal with the old phobia. Besides, from the moment I saw this dog I knew this was a kind of dog I wanted most. Do you think I can continue considering the whole endeavor a calculated risk?

*EDIT:* Oh, by the way, I don't remember being afraid every time this aggression incident happened. It came to me as a surprise every time except the case with the bone (I knew I was doing something incredibly stupid, but did it anyway, because people were waiting for me).

*EDIT 2:* The reason I'm saying all that is because I believe that with all that history, training methods that are based on aggression can end very-very bad with me. I'm generally not an aggressive person, and with dogs I'm almost doomed to fail aggressively asserting domination from time to time.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Septi, can you honestly see someone successfully training an animal that weighs 100's of tons by dominationg it? Operant Conditioning and classical conditioning has been proven successful for training nearly every species. True, it takes longer but it's more reliable than dominance and less likely to create behavioral backlashes such as shutting down or lashing out. It takes time and CONSISTANCY but it works. I'm not going to say never do certain things, butI am going to say you do them ONLY as a last resort. Right now this dog needs to learn to trust, using punishment and dominance will not build that trust.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

I think it's pretty amazing that you're coming to this with such an open mind, considering the information you were given previously and your fear of dogs. I'm impressed! Your English is great, too.

People have given you really good advice. And no, don't worry, your dog is not trying to dominate you. Like the last person said, you can just throw that idea out the window. I really think this is about fear, not an evil-genius plot to trick you into submitting to his will. If you respond with corrections, or by trying to assert your authority, it will backfire. Badly.

You have to think about his motives in the simplest sense. When he's uncertain and someone/something does something that he perceives as a threat, he growls or nips to communicate his fear.

I would say to try to learn more about dog body language (like with the calming signals book that was suggested, and looking at videos/photos and explanations online). He is probably trying to tell you a lot more with his body language, but it's like you speak different languages and you just aren't understanding his signals.

And also learn about how your body language affects him. Some people inadvertently have really confrontational or threatening body language with animals, and they have no idea what signals they are giving off. (This might not apply to you.) Threatening behaviors are things like leaning over him, putting your hand over his head, lots of eye contact, putting your face in his face, constraining him with your arms (hugs). Even facing a frightened animal squarely can be intimidating, so when you see that he's nervous, trying turning your body to the side and looking away. This says "I am not a threat." Also speak quietly.

That's my advice.

ETA: Eventually, when you have earned his trust, you can start using positive methods to condition him not to be frightened by the things above.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> Skip the "cuddling". When he rolls on his back, try gently rubbing his belly and between his front legs. Avoid 'hovering" directly over him. Don't hug him. Do hand feed him treats/dinner. it'll help with resource guarding (like with the bone).
> Practice trading up games. Give him something of much higher value, while saying "drop it" or "give". Then give him back whatever you traded for and let him enjoy it in peace.


I can't recommend trading up enough! My dogs have dropped bones, plastic pieces (they love plastic!), a frog, and favorite toys, looking for me to give them something better!


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## ofthelogos (Mar 1, 2012)

Hi Septi,
I will echo others and commend you on both your dedication to this dog (despite your difficulties) and your handle of English as a Non-English speaker. Wow!

Most definitely have a look at the stickies in the training section, they are a wonderful resource (great job on finding the Pat Miller book too btw). I'm a big fan of video work, so I've picked out a few that I think might be helpful for you. The most ideal thing here would be for you to find a local positive trainer . . . but I get the impression that this is not an option. 

So:

For dog body language:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgnLgHFRJu4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_7dl4c-IrM

A good video explaining the ladder of aggression:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HL4_ez5M2S4&list=UUEx7qRAzUH_nmQn_hiLo2Ig&index=1&feature=plcp

Working with resource guarding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndTiVOCNY4M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ2qFglIfAE

On leash Reactivity:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muJDkV_KPEU&list=UURyHBkIJ90SZNRyq1iVda5g&index=8&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMc-zyNfRO0

You said you were low on cash. This website has some e-books available for download (cheaper than ordering and shipping). Offhand I would recommend:
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB740
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB825

When working with dogs with behavioral problems, I find it's best to stop giving them meals in a bowl (this goes double for resource guarding) and instead, portion out their food for the day and use it entirely for training "treats." This will stimulate your dog mentally (they are always working for their food) and will help build the bond between you (all good things come from you).

Kikopup, Tab289, and Domesticatedmanners all have excellent videos on training all sorts of behaviors positively. If you get into a snag while working on exercises from "Power of Positive" try looking through their videos for troubleshooting.

Keep us updated!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Septi said:


> *EDIT: * I've been just told a minute ago that reaching over his head means telling him I am the alpha. Is this correct and can there be good moments to do it?
> .


Sounds like a very good person NOT to listen to about dog behavior! Reaching over his head tells him that you are inappropriate and won't listen to him. Now, you can certainly counter condition him to like it better. But getting into an alpha battle with a new dog who doesn't trust you, and has shown his willingness to bite, is plain and simple stupid. As to backing off making him think aggression works (different post) If he bites you, you will most certainly back off. Isn't it better to show him that you will respect his whispered (body language) request, or his spoken requests (a growl) than that he has to shout (bite) to get your attention.


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## chocolabs (Mar 3, 2012)

Yeah like some of the others have said, you are moving way too fast. The growling could be a sign that hes scared of something, or uncomfortable. I wouldn't recommend elaborate walks around other people until you're comfortable that you are in control of your dog around others. I would say lay off the sensory overloads he's getting and take things slowly so that if he does growl, you know exactly why hes growling. Like you said before he was growling when you pulled back, he could be growling because hes not properly leash controlled or because he really wanted to go there, or something else that you couldn't have realized scared him. You have too many variables that could have caused the growling. As others have said, you need to start slowly and when he does what you want him to, use a strong treat and praise. When you do walk him, have treats in your pocket that will immediately snap him out of whatever behavior hes doing, and then praise him when he behaves as you want. This isnt a dog that will be fixed overnight, just stick to it and know the dog does rely on you and its important you stick to it.


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

ofthelogos said:


> Keep us updated!


Ooops... Sorry about failing that part. Another aggression episode happened between my dog and... my internet cable, while I left them home alone. Needless to say, the dog prevailed  I took measures to make the (repaired) cable less accessible. After that I've been a bit busy with my work.

Anyway, the worst we had in this time was growling on couple of dog owners. I _gently_ pulled the leash to make sure there is some distance between them and us (by the way, is it okay to do? especially when the other party is unlikely to move). I only began carrying treats with me recently, so no desensitizing is done as of now.

Since receiving the advice about petting him differently, he hasn't growled on me yet. I'm also starting to get more and more comfortable near him. But I'm still cautious.



begemot said:


> I think it's pretty amazing that you're coming to this with such an open mind, considering the information you were given previously and your fear of dogs. I'm impressed! Your English is great, too.





ofthelogos said:


> Hi Septi,
> I will echo others and commend you on both your dedication to this dog (despite your difficulties) and your handle of English as a Non-English speaker. Wow!


Thank you very much for your kind words  For the first week I've been thinking if I'm going over my head in all this, doing something I simply can't handle. But I'm getting used to it, and I think in the end it is worth the effort.



begemot said:


> And also learn about how your body language affects him. Some people inadvertently have really confrontational or threatening body language with animals, and they have no idea what signals they are giving off. (This might not apply to you.) Threatening behaviors are things like leaning over him, putting your hand over his head, lots of eye contact, putting your face in his face, constraining him with your arms (hugs).


Leaning over him, check. Putting my hand over his head, check. Lots of eye contact, check. Putting my face in his face, would-be-check, if only I wasn't such a coward  Constraining him with my arms (hugs), check. I guess I used to be a walking "BITE ME" sign to him lol. I have changed it now, although we do hug occasionally, when he's the one to approach.



begemot said:


> Also speak quietly.


By the way, does that apply to commands that I give him? My other sources tell me they should be loud and clear.



titiaamor said:


> I can't recommend trading up enough! My dogs have dropped bones, plastic pieces (they love plastic!), a frog, and favorite toys, looking for me to give them something better!


Will get there soon, hopefully. We have a lot of work to do. At this moment I'm desensitizing him to washing his paws, because if I continue to use force (not hurting him, of course, only holding his paws forcefully under the flow), I might be having a new problem soon. And considering my living conditions, his paws have to be washed every day, whether he is happy about that or not. Or he would have to stay on a leash tied to something 22-23 hours a day.

On the other hand, he does have a problem with picking up bones and stuff on the street and trying to eat it. I heard he might choke on a bone. My response is to wait until he drops the stuff, than carefully pull him away. I'm not sure if this is better than pulling the stuff away from him, but he didn't show any signs of aggression. What do you think? Is it okay to do that until he learns to drop? And am I not overreacting? He was a stray dog after all, if only for a month. So he had great chances to choke already, but he didn't.



ofthelogos said:


> Most definitely have a look at the stickies in the training section, they are a wonderful resource (great job on finding the Pat Miller book too btw). I'm a big fan of video work, so I've picked out a few that I think might be helpful for you. The most ideal thing here would be for you to find a local positive trainer . . . but I get the impression that this is not an option.


Thanks a lot for video and book links. I'll study them and see if I can learn something  The first video already seems to be very useful. I'll give a try to those calming signals both with my dog and with my wife's dog with serious fear problems.



ofthelogos said:


> When working with dogs with behavioral problems, I find it's best to stop giving them meals in a bowl (this goes double for resource guarding) and instead, portion out their food for the day and use it entirely for training "treats." This will stimulate your dog mentally (they are always working for their food) and will help build the bond between you (all good things come from you).


This might be an interesting idea... But won't it be bad for a dog's stomach?



chocolabs said:


> When you do walk him, have treats in your pocket that will immediately snap him out of whatever behavior hes doing, and then praise him when he behaves as you want.


In other words, if he growls, I should:

1. Take out a treat
2. Call my dog by the name
3. When he has lost interest in whatever was bothering him, click and treat
4. Let him observe the disturbing object from a distance
5. If there are no signs of aggression, click and treat and repeat

Is that the correct way of desensitizing?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I teach my dogs commands in a normal tone. I don't want to have to speak loudly in order to get my dogs to listen! Dogs have incredibly good hearing, and you do not need to be loud to get them to listen to you.


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

Spanning food out over a period of time will not be bad for the stomach. It is probably better.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

Septi said:


> Anyway, the worst we had in this time was growling on couple of dog owners. I _gently_ pulled the leash to make sure there is some distance between them and us (by the way, is it okay to do? especially when the other party is unlikely to move). I only began carrying treats with me recently, so no desensitizing is done as of now.


Start training the "Look at me" cue to redirect his attention. You can start by just suddenly saying "Look!" in a quiet home setting when he's pretty much guaranteed to glance in your direction when he hears you speak. When he looks toward you, immediately treat (using a clicker will speed up the learning). Keep practicing in increasingly distracting settings until he's got it reliably. Then when you are in a situation where you think he might get uncomfortable, you can get his attention by redirecting him to look at you, and then move him away more smoothly. You can also simultaneously use body blocking by moving yourself between him and the thing he's nervous about.



> I guess I used to be a walking "BITE ME" sign to him lol.


Ha, you couldn't possibly be as bad as one of my uncles. He's this good-natured buffoon type of guy that bellows instead of talking, and doesn't respect people's "personal space," so he gets really close to you and shouts in your face. He means well, but I think he's probably breaking records for the number of times he's been bitten by animals.



> By the way, does that apply to commands that I give him? My other sources tell me they should be loud and clear.


Unless your dog is hard of hearing or far away, loud is not necessary. You can use your normal speaking volume. Speaking clearly is always good.



> On the other hand, he does have a problem with picking up bones and stuff on the street and trying to eat it. I heard he might choke on a bone. My response is to wait until he drops the stuff, than carefully pull him away. I'm not sure if this is better than pulling the stuff away from him, but he didn't show any signs of aggression. What do you think? Is it okay to do that until he learns to drop? And am I not overreacting? He was a stray dog after all, if only for a month. So he had great chances to choke already, but he didn't.


This is where "Leave it" comes in. You can teach this by giving him something he likes, then holding out something even better, like cheese or fresh/freeze-dried meat, and saying "Leave it." Reward him with the new item as soon as he drops the first thing. You can do it with all different stuff. Like when my puppy is eating his kibble, I say "leave it" and give him a piece of freeze-dried beef liver, then let him go back to his food. Just keep doing that until he's rock solid -- be sure to do it in all different environments, and always trade him up to something he really loves -- and then when you're on walks you can ask him to drop stuff. And you'll be ready to reward him now that you started carrying treats with you.


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## chocolabs (Mar 3, 2012)

Absolutely, I can't impress enough how important "look at me" is, it sounds stupid but in a scary situation or busy place, you want to get your dogs attention quickly. And like begemot said, you want it rock solid everywhere, what works in your livingroom will probably not work in public without alot of practice.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I wouldn't say commands should be 'loud' but they should be in a authorative (confident) tone and they SHOULD be clear.


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## Septi (Jan 26, 2012)

begemot said:


> Start training the "Look at me" cue to redirect his attention. You can start by just suddenly saying "Look!" in a quiet home setting when he's pretty much guaranteed to glance in your direction when he hears you speak. When he looks toward you, immediately treat (using a clicker will speed up the learning). Keep practicing in increasingly distracting settings until he's got it reliably. Then when you are in a situation where you think he might get uncomfortable, you can get his attention by redirecting him to look at you, and then move him away more smoothly. You can also simultaneously use body blocking by moving yourself between him and the thing he's nervous about.





chocolabs said:


> Absolutely, I can't impress enough how important "look at me" is, it sounds stupid but in a scary situation or busy place, you want to get your dogs attention quickly. And like begemot said, you want it rock solid everywhere, what works in your livingroom will probably not work in public without alot of practice.


I was under the impression that dog's name is what should be "Look at me" command for him. What's the difference then?


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## chocolabs (Mar 3, 2012)

the dog hears their name far too often, so they can often dismiss it as background noise, and look at me is a what i would call a hard command for their attention. i use the command bailey - look at me, and then command her, she usually gives me a look up no matter how distracted and will listen to my commands.


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## dcherry (Mar 22, 2012)

I feel the need to be blunt. 

You are not in a good situation with this dog. You are afraid of this dog which means you are not the dominate partner in the relationship. You basically have two choices.
Find an expert dog trainer to help you with this dog or take this dog back to the shelter and inform the shelter of the problems you are having. I think this dog needs someone with more experience.
I am afraid for your safety and others around you. You are not in control of this dog. If you keep this dog you have at least 10 more years with him. How will these 10 years be? Are you really ready to spend 10 years with this dog?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Septi said:


> I was under the impression that dog's name is what should be "Look at me" command for him. What's the difference then?


Some people do use the dog's name as "look at me" with the expectation that the dog will look at them whenever his name is used. Some people prefer to use a specific "look at me" command because they either don't care if the dog looks at them each time they say his name or because they know his name will be said randomly and they want to tie the "look" action to a single command.
Doesn't matter, you really just want a simple command to get the dog's attention. You could say "bananas" for all the dog cares 



dcherry said:


> I feel the need to be blunt.
> 
> You are not in a good situation with this dog. You are afraid of this dog which means you are not the dominate partner in the relationship. You basically have two choices.
> Find an expert dog trainer to help you with this dog or take this dog back to the shelter and inform the shelter of the problems you are having. I think this dog needs someone with more experience.
> I am afraid for your safety and others around you. You are not in control of this dog. If you keep this dog you have at least 10 more years with him. How will these 10 years be? Are you really ready to spend 10 years with this dog?


The dog did not come from a shelter. There is no place to return him to even if that is what the owner desired. Time, patience and training can solve a lot of problems; if he can continue to make progress, I think there is a good chance of things working out. It isn't about being "dominant" but rather about forming a working partnership where the human respects the dog and the dog respects the human and both enjoy each other's company. 
I realized awhile ago living with an independent hound dog that I am in no way dominant but it is more like Chester agrees to go along with the goofy stuff I ask of him and he will put up with me for kibble and scratches and car rides and park trips  We made a deal like that.


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