# Any fish based Puppy formulas (other than TOTW?)



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

The only fish based puppy food is TOTW that I have seen. Anyone know of any others? 

Puppy is 18 weeks old and currently on Orijen puppy and Verus Puppy (could never get him fully switched over to orijen) Vet recommends puppy food over all life stages. But I'll consider als if i have to and just make sure that the calcium isn't too high.

I'm looking b/c my adult dog has food intolerance issues and tolerates NB LID Sweet Potato and Salmon. The puppy food will accidentally spill, or some kibble will get out of the puppy crate and the adult dog will scarf it down. So I need to find a puppy food that wont upset the adults system when she accidentally gets it.

before all the well intended advice starts in; yes I do train the leave it command, yes I do crate the dogs separately when they are fed. Yes I have spent thousands on vet bills trying to get to the bottom of the food/illness issue. I've gone to the local vet and a regional GI specialist in a large city. Yes I do hate the NB food as it is more potato than meat but so far when I've switched to new foods I get a sick adult dog. (wellness Core got her sick) I don't want to put the puppy on the NB LID food as it really isn;t a very good quality food for a puppy. It really is a lot of potato and a tiny amount of meat.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

NRB said:


> The only fish based puppy food is TOTW that I have seen. Anyone know of any others?
> 
> Puppy is 18 weeks old and currently on Orijen puppy and Verus Puppy (could never get him fully switched over to orijen) Vet recommends puppy food over all life stages. But I'll consider als if i have to and just make sure that the calcium isn't too high.
> 
> ...


Annamaet Aqualuk. Wild Salmon meal, Herring meal and Catfish meal, 30/16% ALS. That would make an excellent puppy food even for a giant breed. The ASH is a maximum of 7.5% so the calcium & phosphorous should be very well controlled. You should be able to find it if you can get Verus.

I am going to guess the calcium is not more than 1.3-1.5%, could be lower.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

why are you worried about the calcium?


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Stupid reason, someone on this or another board went into info post about puppies should not get too much calcium..... can't dredge up enough brain cells to remember. I think a range of 1-1.5 was acceptable. Since you have a large breed dog maybe you know more about calcium levels and puppies growth. My guy little one only max 50lbs. I have seen some adult food with higher levels of calcium. Perhaps it was balanced out with another mineral (like phosphorus maybe... like in horses? I dunno) 

And I can't get Verus locally I have ordered it though a local pet food store. was very spendy. but I'll look into the Annamaet Aqualuk


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

yep, its not how much there is, as long as its a balanced ratio of calcium to phosphorus. also your calorie intake will need to be looked at. a lot of puppy foods are high calorie and speed up the growth. the thought is that they are young active dogs and need all the calories to maintain their weight, but they dont, and the excess leads to excessive rapid growth. also protein can be looked at as well. pups can be fed a raw diet and do just fine, thats because the protein is coming from meat. if the protein is coming from other sources, its not utilized as well and is stored, adding to the rapid growth. 

with him only being 50lbs, hes not going to be a giant breed, but still, i like to keep these things in mind. HOD (a growth disease) was first discovered in irish setters, so its not ONLY the giants that can have these problems.


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

Earthborn makes a grain-free Fish based formula in a similar price/quality range as TOTW called Coastal Catch. It's not puppy specific, but I don't think you need a puppy formula, all life stages works just fine.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

GreatDaneMom said:


> yep, its not how much there is, as long as its a balanced ratio of calcium to phosphorus. also your calorie intake will need to be looked at. a lot of puppy foods are high calorie and speed up the growth.


Common problem in young foals/horses as well. To much to rich food and too fast a growth results in developmental issues. I'd assume same for dogs. Cal/Pho ratios got to be right as well. My dogs breeder recommends going to adult at 4 months. 

I looked at and picked up a small bag of WalterDogs favorite food, Annamaet Aqualuk (does anyone else on this board feed it I wonder?) and it reads well. Puppy liked the few kibble I gave as a treat. So we'll see how he transitions. I'd tried to switch from Verus to Orijen puppy but the poops got too loose before I'd gotten past 3/4 new food to 1/4 old. So will be interesting to see how this switch goes.

I feed for a lanky-ish dog. feel ribs but not see them clearly. This pup's going to be big for his breed. I'd guess he could top out at 50lbs, but he may be under that easily as well. Hard to tell. His paws are much bigger than my full grown 33lb 3yo female's paws.


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

GreatDaneMom said:


> yep, its not how much there is, as long as its a balanced ratio of calcium to phosphorus.


That is a truth with modifications. Yes the ratio is what is the most important but high levels _can_ indicate other questions re. a formula. You want to pay for energy in the form of fat, proteins and carbohydrates, not _excessive_ ash.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

NRB said:


> Common problem in young foals/horses as well. To much to rich food and too fast a growth results in developmental issues. I'd assume same for dogs. Cal/Pho ratios got to be right as well. My dogs breeder recommends going to adult at 4 months.
> 
> I looked at and picked up a small bag of WalterDogs favorite food, Annamaet Aqualuk (does anyone else on this board feed it I wonder?) and it reads well. Puppy liked the few kibble I gave as a treat. So we'll see how he transitions. I'd tried to switch from Verus to Orijen puppy but the poops got too loose before I'd gotten past 3/4 new food to 1/4 old. So will be interesting to see how this switch goes.
> 
> I feed for a lanky-ish dog. feel ribs but not see them clearly. This pup's going to be big for his breed. I'd guess he could top out at 50lbs, but he may be under that easily as well. Hard to tell. His paws are much bigger than my full grown 33lb 3yo female's paws.


a lot of dogs dont do well on orijen. its extrememly rich. take everything walterdog says with a grain of salt, hes been banned for spewing flase information and making people believe they are dumb more times than i can even count. and as you can see he got himself banned AGAIN. i personally dont ever feed puppy food. most of it is not designed properly. i stick with ALS.



DaViking said:


> That is a truth with modifications. Yes the ratio is what is the most important but high levels _can_ indicate other questions re. a formula. You want to pay for energy in the form of fat, proteins and carbohydrates, not _excessive_ ash.


actually, carbohydrates are NOT necessary, so no. i dont want to pay for my "energy" in carbohydrates, nor do i want my food to be loaded up with fats. and i have never come across a food that was "excessive" in ash....


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

GreatDaneMom said:


> actually, carbohydrates are NOT necessary, so no. i dont want to pay for my "energy" in carbohydrates, nor do i want my food to be loaded up with fats. and i have never come across a food that was "excessive" in ash....


Well, regardless if you "believe" in carbohydrates or not, proteins, fat and carbohydrates make up the bulk of the food (kibble). No one is suggesting you should load up on fats either. Ash levels above 6% to 8% is excessive and means less of other nutrients, ingredients and functional ingredients. Formulas with for example 12% ash means roughly 6% less of other quality (functional) ingredients/nutrients. You are then paying for excessive ash, usually from bones via lesser meals but it could come from other sources.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

ok so what is ASH? I interpret to mean junk we don't name.

Walterdog is the main proponent for this dog food on this forum, so I do take that with a grain of salt. Reading the lable it seems to have food that my older dog will tolerate. But I also like the new pet food store in town (the 4th boutique store to open and the first to have processed raw) and the owner said that the food was met with positive reviews by her consomers.

I don't want the pup to spend his entire life on this one food, would like to find a rotation for him. In a perfect world I can wean my adult dog off of the NB LID SP and Sal food and onto a better more meat based food as well. But she got sick on the Wellness Core Ocean so I may just have to be happy with the NB food.

My vet was the one who prefered the puppy food as being better balanced for a puppy as opposed to an ALS food. Can't recall the theory (been a busy day) but it sounded right and I do respect her opinion. She's wayyy better than your average good vet in a lot of ways.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

DaViking said:


> Well, regardless if you "believe" in carbohydrates or not


a dog doesnt need carbohydrates. its not an opinion or what i just "believe" its a fact.

"There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived."

"Carbohydrates do provide quick and easy energy. However, it is not 'carbs' that maintain the health of the organs listed in the quotes above, but glucose. Glucose can be obtained from both fat and protein through a process known as gluconeogenesis, where amino acids and fat (not fatty acids; those use a different cycle) are "converted" to glucose. If carbs are present, though, they will be converted to energy first before fat and protein because they are easier to use. This is the reason that carbs regulate how much starch and fat will be broken down and utilized. If there is a plethora of carbohydrates, fat will be stored instead of used. If there are not enough carbs to fulfill energy needs, then fat will be converted to glucose and used. If no carbs are present, then fat and protein are used to fill energy needs.

Excess carbohydrates are stored in the liver and the muscles as glycogen AND in the body as fat. However, since carboydrates are not the only source of glycogen (which also comes from proteins and fats through a process known as glyconeogenesis), they are not absolutely necessary. Human athletes commonly perform 'carbo loading' techniques where they eat huge carby meals of things like pasta to rapidly replenish their glycogen stores in their muscles and liver before a competition. The carbohydrates, when in excess, are more rapidly converted and stored as glycogen compared to fat and protein. HOWEVER, once again, fat and protein can also be stored as glycogen, which makes carbohydrates unnecessary unless you want to perform 'carbo loading'. I believe it is Purina that has capitalized on this and now has "energy bars" of complex carbohydrates for the canine athlete to help them recover more quickly between events. But, carbohydrates do not rebuild spent muscle tissue, etc. Protein does that. Fat is also easily utilized for quick energy, too, and provides more energy per gram that carbohydrate does."


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

NRB said:


> ok so what is ASH? I interpret to mean junk we don't name.


ash is what would be left if you incinerated the fats, proteins, and carbs, etc. the minerals left behind are the "ash". ash content is the WHOLE FOODS content. most dog foods are between 5-8% ash. this is normal. knowing the total ash itself though isnt helpful because its only a combo of all minerals. minerals are necessary to sustain life, but too much can be toxic. the thing is the numbers are different to each individual mineral, so there really is nothing saying "thats too much ash content" or not.


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

GreatDaneMom said:


> a dog doesnt need carbohydrates. its not an opinion or what i just "believe" its a fact.
> 
> "There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived."
> 
> ...


I thought we where talking about ash and not carbohydrates? At least I where. What you feel is appropriate of carbs for an adapted carnivore doesn't really have anything to do with ash. I was commenting on your original statement about ash levels, that's all. You have to take it to someone else if you want to start a discussion about carbohydrates.


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

NRB said:


> ok so what is ASH? I interpret to mean junk we don't name.


It's absolutely not junk. Minerals are necessities of life. Stay below, say 8%'ish and all should be good. Above that doesn't necessarily mean that it's bad, inappropriate or, worst case, toxic. As @GreatDaneMom said, the individual levels can vary. However, it does mean that the excess ash is present at the expense of other more valuable nutrients like for example proteins in a meal. Good quality formulas use good quality meals with low ash values. Lately in some new formulas there are other sources of minerals but that's besides the point here.


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## odiesmom (May 31, 2007)

ALaskan grown dog food is made of salmon meal, kelp and alaskan barely, alot of dog mushers use this for thier sleddogs it is what I feed my dogs


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

DaViking said:


> I thought we where talking about ash and not carbohydrates? At least I where. What you feel is appropriate of carbs for an adapted carnivore doesn't really have anything to do with ash. I was commenting on your original statement about ash levels, that's all. You have to take it to someone else if you want to start a discussion about carbohydrates.


actually that was in your response to saying that its just my belief that carbs are not neccessary. i quoted you, since you said you want energy to come from carbs, fat and protein, and i said i do not want it coming from carbs or a ton of fat, but from protein.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

odiesmom said:


> ALaskan grown dog food is made of salmon meal, kelp and alaskan barely, alot of dog mushers use this for thier sleddogs it is what I feed my dogs


where would you even get that if youre not in alaska? they dont even have a website that i can find....


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

GreatDaneMom said:


> actually that was in your response to saying that its just my belief that carbs are not neccessary. i quoted you, since you said you want energy to come from carbs, fat and protein, and i said i do not want it coming from carbs or a ton of fat, but from protein.


No, I said "you" as in everyone reading this and feed kibble because that's what we are talking about here, ash as found in kibble. Last time I checked all kibble contain varying amounts of carbohydrates who contribute to available energy among other things. What all who feed kibble want to pay for is appropriate levels of minerals, so called functional ingredients and energy, which carbohydrates is a source of whether or not you and others believe carbohydrates is appropriate and beneficial for dogs. It's a completely different discussion. Dog parents should not pay for excessive amounts of minerals, that excess % of the food should be used for energy or other functional ingredients. And it _can_ be taxing over time


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

DaViking said:


> No, I said "you" as in everyone reading this and feed kibble because that's what we are talking about here, ash as found in kibble.


actually, no... apparently when you dont have an answer backed up by anything, you just deny things. ill just go ahead and quote what you said.... 


DaViking said:


> Well, regardless if you "believe" in carbohydrates or not, proteins, fat and carbohydrates make up the bulk of the food (kibble).


THAT, was directed at me since i was the one who said that carbohydrates were not neccessary. i backed up what i said, but then youre quick to say thats not what was being talked about..... interesting.


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

GreatDaneMom said:


> actually, no... apparently when you dont have an answer backed up by anything, you just deny things. ill just go ahead and quote what you said....
> 
> THAT, was directed at me since i was the one who said that carbohydrates were not neccessary. i backed up what i said, but then youre quick to say thats not what was being talked about..... interesting.


Because I don't care either way and I have no interest in wasting time defending carbohydrates in kibble if that's what you are trying to get me to do. I never said you where wrong and I never said you where right. All I said was that carbs are present in the kibble regardless and are part of what ppl pay for.

I don't know what your agenda is and I don't think I understand what point you are trying to make anymore so I give up. I apologize if I offended you in any way, that was not my intention. Have a nice day.


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## odiesmom (May 31, 2007)

hmm, not sure greatdanemom I get it at the local feed storeI am sure you can order it online


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## odiesmom (May 31, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> where would you even get that if youre not in alaska? they dont even have a website that i can find....


http://alaskafeed.com/store-alaskagrown.php that is the website they send it out USPS


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## Nialr35 (May 9, 2012)

Acana Pacifica is EXCELLENT! You will never look back at anything else. Whoever said Orijen is bad because of excessive protein is an idiot. The real reason why some people complain about orijen is because they feed more than they should, causing overfeeding and diarrhea; not because it's too rich.

Wolves, dingos, coyotes, jackals, amongs others just eat mainly animals with high protein, raw, specially their organs which even have higher protein than the meat itself and they do not go around with explosive diarrhea. 

The only things to look out for is moderate calcium: phosphorus ration, moderate calorie intake,high levels of glucosamine and chondroitin for joint/bone support and ash level. I feed my American Bulldog and Rottweiler puppies both Acana wild prairie and Acana Pacifica, alternating between these two every other bag and they are growing nice and slow. 

My sister-in-law's boyfriend overfeeds/free-feeds Nutro Ultra to one of my puppy's littermate and thinks his dog is "bigger" than mine because he is fatter. Poor puppy and poor stubborn imbecile for not listening to me, his dog is a bigger than mine because all he does is eat all day, he has no waist and you can barely feel his ribs so anyway just don't do that to any dog. It's easier to put on weight than to lose weight on dogs and it's a pain in the rear.

You cannot go wrong with Acana, yet only feed Acana Wildprairie or Pacifica while they are still young because Ranchlands and grasslands have different calcium: phosphorus ratios that are not good for a large breed even though they are also all life stages so save those two for when your dog is 1 1/2- 2 years old and at full growth.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

To the OP: how is your dog doing on the Annamaet Aqualuk? I just started one of mine on it, today is the first day of mixing it in so it'll be awhile before I know how he's doing on it.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Nialr35 said:


> Acana Pacifica is EXCELLENT! You will never look back at anything else. Whoever said Orijen is bad because of excessive protein is an idiot. The real reason why some people complain about orijen is because they feed more than they should, causing overfeeding and diarrhea; not because it's too rich.


not 100% true. many dogs who have been on a kiblle diet right along dont do well on orijen becase it is a really rich food. just like some dogs cant eat certain meats because theyre too rich. 



Nialr35 said:


> Wolves, dingos, coyotes, jackals, amongs others just eat mainly animals with high protein, raw, specially their organs which even have higher protein than the meat itself and they do not go around with explosive diarrhea.


 you cant compare our domesticated dogs with wild animals. those animals are not on a kiblle diet are they? completely different.



Nialr35 said:


> high levels of glucosamine and chondroitin for joint/bone support


actually the glucosamine and chondroitin found in dog food isnt going to do much at all for your dog. there isnt enough in it to make a difference, even in the "high level" foods.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Pup is on 1/2 cup Annamaet and 1/4 cup Verus 2x a day in food toys. Haven't switched over completely and this is week 2 coming up. Stool is awesome. not to soft. 

He is @24lbs and just turned 19 weeks old today. And I am completely stumped as to how much to feed him. The Annamaet bag says puppies should eat as much food as possible. but adults that weigh 24 lbs eat 1-2 cups a day. Where does that leave me? I just run my hands over his sides everyday. I like to feel a thin layer of padding over the ribs, ie feel the ribs but not see them except for the outline of the last rib. 

The Annamaet food is 426 cal per cup and he's getting one cup a day, plus 1/2 cup Verus (425 per cup) So he's getting 638 cal per day in his kibble. Plus training treats (@ 1/8th cup kibble and @3-4 meatballs per day)


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