# Stabyhoun association, real or no?



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hey everyone, so in my dog breed researching I came across this breed, and their association website: http://www.stabyhouns.org/assocabout.php

I was just wondering if anyone else had heard of this breed, or knows if this association is legit or not.

The breed is not yet AKC recognized it says, and to find a puppy you apply through them rather than contacting a breeder directly, since they're so rare and they want to keep track of health/temperment and etc. Is this normal for a rare breed?

I would never do this for a regular breed (GSD, Golden, etc) but since they're common, there are more breeders, so it's not hard to find and visit one to make sure they're on the up and up, as it were.

Thoughts?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It looks pretty legitimate to me.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Gorgeous dogs! The AKC isn't the be-all-end all; there are lots of breeds that they recognize that aren't recognized outside of the USA/Canada and vice versa. Information on the SAS website seems legit to me, but I know nothing.... you could always contact the NVSW or the FCI for more information on the breed and possible the organization.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Stabyhoun are recognized by the AKC through their FSS program, that the Ameri-Can Stabyhoun Association is the recognized parent club for that breed.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Interesting! Also I agree with gingerkid, they're so handsome! (And I confess, stealing my heart just a bit!)

Has anyone come across that kind of process for getting a dog before? it seems strange to me, and trusting an association to assess a breeder rather than myself, is kinda... egh, I dunno. Maybe it's just because I've never come across that kind of procedure before.

*Edit* Also, is there anyone who happens to be somewhat familiar with this breed? It's a shot in the dark, but I figure this is the place to ask!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

The Stabyhoun is a real breed, yes. Lol. I live in Friesland, a province in the Netherlands, the very province the Stabyhoun (and Wetterhoun) is native to. Stabyhouns (or bijkes as we call them) are literally everywhere. 

The logo that's on the link you posted is the logo of the Dutch Stabyhoun and Wetterhoun club (NVSW = Nederlandse Vereniging voor Stabij- en Wetterhounen) and it is absolutely legit. Look here.

My grandpa grew up with bijkes, as did many Friesian old timers. The Stabyhoun is an old breed. 









'Tink om 'e hûn', watch out for the dog!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Ugh, I think my heart is being stolen by this breed the more I read about them!

It's too bad that they're rare here, or else they would be a definite possibility for us.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Ugh, I think my heart is being stolen by this breed the more I read about them!
> 
> It's too bad that they're rare here, or else they would be a definite possibility for us.


If you like them, I wouldn't hesitate to go through the process to get one. It is a little strange, compared to a regular breeder, but when the breed is that rare and regulated to that degree you can be danged close to 100% (nothing in life is sure) that all the breeders are good ones. All that work is to keep them out of the wrong hands that would lead to unscrupulous breeding.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I would trust the association. It doesn't suprise me much, the Dutch club they're affiliated to is the same. You're put on a general waiting list and when a pup is born with your preferences (gender, color) they'll give you a heads up. If for whatever reason you don't want the pup, you have the right to refuse and better luck next time. You can wait as long as you want. You can also go to a breeder of your own choice, because the breeders have waiting lists too, but (to my knowledge) at least half of the litter's pups are reserved for people on the club's general waiting list. So basically you're guaranteed a well bred health tested pup if you're on the club's general waiting list, you don't necessarily need to search for a breeder. I suppose that does require you to put your trust in the breed club.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

The problem is finding a breeder close enough to us to make it a possibility. They mention on the association site that not all breeders are willing to ship dogs (nor am I super keen on having a dog shipped, but I may make an exception for this breed, honestly).

I just sent the association an e-mail on a whim to see if it's even a possibility to obtain one here, just so I don't get my hopes up if it isn't.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> The problem is finding a breeder close enough to us to make it a possibility. They mention on the association site that not all breeders are willing to ship dogs (nor am I super keen on having a dog shipped, but I may make an exception for this breed, honestly).
> 
> I just sent the association an e-mail on a whim to see if it's even a possibility to obtain one here, just so I don't get my hopes up if it isn't.


There's always taking a road trip to the breeder (or flying out to pick up). Honestly, if I end up settling on Decker Terriers instead of the more common smaller variety of rats, I'm going to end up doing that. There's just no one close breeding what I want. YET. I am hoping like heck they are by the time I'm ready, a billion years from now.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

So last night I had a dream that a breeder of these dogs just happened to be in my town. We went to see the dogs, but it turned out they were crossed with Pugs. Yea, it was weird. Wishful thinking I guess! I guess I really am enamored with this breed!

Pretty pathetic, no? Haha


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

You sent an email, right? Let's await their reaction.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I did send an e-mail. But also, on the association's facebook page I found a Staby owner who lives in my city! So maybe there's hope after all.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I did send an e-mail. But also, on the association's facebook page I found a Staby owner who lives in my city! So maybe there's hope after all.


Awesome!  Maybe you could meet up so you can meet the breed in real life.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Website looks good to me as everyone else is saying. I love Stabyhouns! They're gorgeous dogs; sometimes I see them having the brown/white pattern. I'd love to see one one day, but I doubt there are many in the East Coast of the US. 
That's pretty cool if you get one, I hear they're sweet dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Aw, they're cute. I wouldn't even know if I ever saw one, because I would assume it was a Springer mix . 

It's interesting how the breed club manages things.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> Website looks good to me as everyone else is saying. I love Stabyhouns! They're gorgeous dogs; sometimes I see them having the brown/white pattern. I'd love to see one one day, but I doubt there are many in the East Coast of the US.
> That's pretty cool if you get one, I hear they're sweet dogs.


I read that they also technically come in red and white (like a Brittany or WSS) but that combination is all but extinct.

Also, I am East Coast Canada, so you may have hope! I read on one website that there are only 10 in all of Canada (though I somehow doubt that's up to date, since the association website lists 3 Canadian breeders) and to have one in my town is kind of astounding. We never have anything like that happen here, it's usually in the bigger cities like Toronto and Calgary or Vancouver. 

Now I'm just worried that because we don't plan on showing or competing or anything like that that they'd be less likely to consider us for a dog just for a family pet. 
I have sent a message to the person in my town, so we'll see if they can shed some light!
I mean, we might consider doing it for fun at some point (agility or flyball of something like that) but certainly not to seriously compete, and not with it specifically in mind when choosing a dog.

I'm so happy because every other breed we'd considered always had one thing or another that made them -almost- right, but not quite, and this one finally seems to be the perfect fit!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Aw, they're cute. *I wouldn't even know if I ever saw one, because I would assume it was a Springer mix* .
> 
> It's interesting how the breed club manages things.


That is exactly what I thought when I first started looking at pictures too.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> We never have anything like that happen here, it's usually in the bigger cities like Toronto and Calgary or Vancouver.


It happens! I had what I believe was the only Alaskan Klee Kai on PEI (I recently moved to Toronto). I saw some uncommon breeds at shows (bedlington terrier, standard hairless xolo) and I know there was a pharaoh hound in my town! I also had a friend with a Kuvasz when I was growing up.

Good luck with your research, and I hope you end up with one of these guys if you decide they're indeed the perfect fit.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I read that they also technically come in red and white (like a Brittany or WSS) but that combination is all but extinct.
> 
> Also, I am East Coast Canada, so you may have hope! I read on one website that there are only 10 in all of Canada (though I somehow doubt that's up to date, since the association website lists 3 Canadian breeders) and to have one in my town is kind of astounding. We never have anything like that happen here, it's usually in the bigger cities like Toronto and Calgary or Vancouver.
> 
> ...


Yeah, the red&white (or orange&white) occurs only very very rarely. The brown&white occurs more often. But most common are the black&white and black roan. Tricolored dogs get born sometimes too, but though they get a pedigree this color isn't recognized and they're not allowed to be bred. 








Left to right: black&white, blanketed, black roan, brown&white. 

Below is a dog that is labeled orange&white, though genetically it's sable. 









Below are tricolored dogs. Tricolor in Stabyhouns occur in brown&white (below right) and black&white dogs (below left). 
















I don't think you not wanting to show or compete will be a reason why you won't get a pup. Stabyhouns are pre-eminently active family pets and farm dogs. (not for herding purposes, before anyone calls me out on it) 

Oh, I found definitive proof that the Ameri-Can Stabyhoun association is legit: http://www.nvsw.nl/index.php?sp=43


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Wow, thanks for the pictures and info! I admit, I like how their feet and legs are kind of spotted like a dalmatian. Also, my first dog as a kid was a black and white lhasa apso-toy poodle mix that just passed away 1 year and a half ago now, so I am kind of nostalgic for the black and white. (we had a dog at the shelter recently that was black and white and had the same name my old dog had. It was -very- weird to be calling another dog by his name for the first time since he passed) Though we're certainly not picky on colouring, if one was available to us.

Oh, Avie you may know... My boyfriend was asking me if their heads are always solid black or not. I've seen a couple pictures of dogs with very minimal white blazes, but it seems to be pretty rare, and I've yet to come across one extending up all the way from the nose. *Edit* Other than in a puppy, so I'm wondering if maybe they grow out of it?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Oh, Avie you may know... My boyfriend was asking me if their heads are always solid black or not. I've seen a couple pictures of dogs with very minimal white blazes, but it seems to be pretty rare, and I've yet to come across one extending up all the way from the nose. *Edit* Other than in a puppy, so I'm wondering if maybe they grow out of it?


Their heads are mostly solid black or brown, yes. Blazes do occur, but the blaze is rarely very big. I found some pictures for you with dogs with blazes. 










































Basically, don't expect to get a dog with a big white blaze. 

Ah, and I found two pretty pics of coloring you don't see often: brown&white and a dog with a lot of white:


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Wow, beautiful dogs. I hope you get one so I can live vicariously through your pictures!

Avie, how exactly do you pronounce the breed name? Stabb-ee-houn?

Eta: the description on the club page reminds me so much of Welshies. They sound like my kind of dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Wow, beautiful dogs. I hope you get one so I can live vicariously through your pictures!
> 
> *Avie, how exactly do you pronounce the breed name? Stabb-ee-houn?*
> 
> Eta: the description on the club page reminds me so much of Welshies. They sound like my kind of dog.


I'm struggling with the pronunciation still as well. You mentioning that reminded me, I also -love- that the meaning of the breed name is 'Stand by me dog'. When I can, I'm big on using names with relevant meanings, so even that fits perfectly, haha. Actually because of that, I normally try to avoid re-naming pets (I kept my two cats' shelter names) because I just hem and haw over it for far too long. That's provided their names aren't something objectionable like Fluffy or something of course. (No offense intended if you have named a pet Fluffy).

As a child at the age of 7, I made a list of names for our new dog with my mom and gradually narrowed it down in order to eventually choose Max, named after Goofy's son. Yea, I was a weird kid.

If I am lucky enough to be able to own one of these dogs, pictures will abound!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I just did a search and it said sta-BAY-hoon. 

If you don't have any luck finding one you should look for Welshies! Though I did a search and found a stabyhoun breeder in Vermont with an upcoming litter


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

On the downside we wont be realistically looking on getting a dog for the next few years. On the upside though, maybe the breed will grow in that time and become easier to find! At the moment in North America you have to apply through the Association and they then find a breeder with pups/upcoming pups.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I read that part on their website and I think it's a good system. I'm sure they would try to find one near you to minimize travel. My experience with a rare breed is that breeders tend to be very concerned with only breeding the best dogs to preserve the breed. There aren't nearly as many shady breeders as there are with the popular breeds.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Except when it concerns those 'rare' black cock-brador-spaniel-poos, right? 

More seriously, I'm reluctant to fly with a pup, but I'm sure it happens all the time with rare breeds and they'll know exactly what needs to be done to make it go smoothly.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

The breed can also be written as Stabijhoun instead of Stabyhoun. The Dutch word 'bij' is pronounced the same way as the English word 'by'. Many people simply call the dog the Stabij. The latter part of the name, 'houn', actually has nothing to do with the English word 'hound' and is not pronounced the same way. Instead it is sounds like the Friesian word for dog, namely 'hûn' which is pronounced in English as 'hoon'. 
So with this in mind, it becomes clear that the pronounciation would sound like: 

Sta-by-hoon

'Stand by me' is the correct meaning of the name, yes.  The Stabyhoun was the farmer's helper dog and could always be counted on for hunting, for exterminating vermin, for alerting the owners to intruders on the property, and of course for companionship. The breed has a sweet and soft disposition, though they are a bit stubborn, much like the Friesian people they lived with.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Avie--and not to get off topic...but do you ever think that the black roan Stabyhoun could ever be mistaken for a Munsterlander? I've seen some in books with the exact black roan coloring you put up on the Stabyhoun pictures. Now granted and not to be cocky, but I can tell the difference between a Stabyhoun and another dog if the Stabyhoun is black/white or brown/white. So can you tell me how to see the difference if both dogs have the same black roan coloring, please? 

Coloring always trips me up in dog breeds. Oh and all this info is very interesting!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Münsterlanders are larger than Stabyhouns. They are also a lot leggier and narrower. The difference between them in pictures is telltale. I'd have more difficulty discerning the small Münsterlander (or Heidewachtel) from the Stabij, though the Heidewachtel only comes in brown&white or brown roan, and the Stabij rarely comes in brown. 

Height: 
Large Münsterlander: male 60-65 cm/24-26 inches, female 58-63 cm/23-25 inches
Stabyhoun: male 53 cm/21 inches, female 49 cm/19 inches

Large Münsterlander above, Stabyhoun below: 












































And here two pictures of a small Münsterlander or Heidewachtel. I chose brown&white ones that mostly resembled the Stabij. In my opinion, most Heidewachtels are lankier than Stabyhouns. Heidewachtels are a little larger than Stabyhouns, reaching 50-56 cm/20-22 inches in height. Their ears are supposed to be fringed, while the ears of the Stabij are not.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I really hope they become just a smidge more findable in NA in the coming years. My boyfriend pointed out that in 2011 there were 40 something born here (the most born in NA in a year thus far), so it's a start! Granted of course, there's no way to know how many were female, will be breeding dogs, or even stayed in NA, but there's hope!


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Avie--I can see the difference between the large Musterlander and the Stabyhoun, I think the smaller ones are going to be a bit harder. Thanks for the info! 

Yeah ireth0, rare breeds in the US are sometimes smaller in number because..well..they're rare. Some have more numbers though and could climb higher. I think the Stabyhoun will climb higher because of their beauty and character.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

More questions! I'm seeing pictures of Staby's with both a shorter coat (much like a Brittany) and also with a slightly longer coat (Like a ESS of WSS) is that to do with individual dog, a winter/summer thing, a show/field thing or do some people just cut them shorter?

Long Coat:
http://www.stabyhoun.dk/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Anne1a.jpg
http://www.staby.dk/Images/Nyheder 2010/foppe.jpg

Short Coat:
http://static.gotpetsonline.com/pic...rs-puppies-rescue/pictures/stabyhoun-0004.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-JfKH3L18X...pRdEA/s1600/Stabyhoun+Dog+Breed+Photos+03.jpg


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm certainly no expert on the breed, but it could easily be related to age - a dog under 2 years is going to have a lot less coat than an older dog. It could also just be related to the lines or the individual dogs.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes! I forgot to add that too. The puppies/obviously young dogs all do have a shorter coat, so that could be it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

There can be a lot of variation in feathered breeds from dog to do. The girl who won Welshies at Westminster this year has very light feathering, but she's also only 2.5 years old. Lots of the older dogs, 5 years+, had tons of coat compared to her.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I agree with Elrohwen, it's an individual dog thing and also related to age. But I can assure you that the Stabyhoun does not know show-type and field-type dogs.  They couldn't afford to anyway, since their numbers are low. There are approximately 4000 registered Stabyhouns in the Netherlands, and small populations elsewhere (Scandinavia and the US+Canada).


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I have confirmed with the person I've been talking with at the association that it's just an age thing, the coat develops as they get older. Apparently the dogs are never clipped. Another fun fact, they very rarely need a bath, and you're not supposed to bathe them with soap/shampoo at all if you can help it. After just a spray down or a swim they'll dry and be quite clean.

We've decided we're waiting until next year to apply for the waiting list because we know we can't have a dog until at least them at the very minimum, since that's when my boyfriend finishes his program at school. But gah, so pumped!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I have confirmed with the person I've been talking with at the association that it's just an age thing, the coat develops as they get older. Apparently the dogs are never clipped. Another fun fact, they very rarely need a bath, and you're not supposed to bathe them with soap/shampoo at all if you can help it. After just a spray down or a swim they'll dry and be quite clean.
> 
> We've decided we're waiting until next year to apply for the waiting list because we know we can't have a dog until at least them at the very minimum, since that's when my boyfriend finishes his program at school. But gah, so pumped!


Yep, their coat isn't like a spaniel's so it's not necessary to clip them. 

Enjoy the prep time!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie said:


> Yep, their coat isn't like a spaniel's so it's not necessary to clip them.
> 
> Enjoy the prep time!


Well, their coat sounds exactly like a Welshies' ;-) They require no trimming except for neatening up the ears, neck, face, and tail.

And if they're anything like Welsh, I can say that the self-cleaning property of their coat is pretty much as described. Watson can run through water and mud until he looks like a mess, but I let him try and brush his feathering out and you would never know. I have been giving him a bath every couple months now, but some of that is because he still has a lot of puppy coat which is a very different texture than the adult coat.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Well, their coat sounds exactly like a Welshies' ;-) They require no trimming except for neatening up the ears, neck, face, and tail.
> 
> And if they're anything like Welsh, I can say that the self-cleaning property of their coat is pretty much as described. Watson can run through water and mud until he looks like a mess, but I let him try and brush his feathering out and you would never know. I have been giving him a bath every couple months now, but some of that is because he still has a lot of puppy coat which is a very different texture than the adult coat.


Well, if the Welsh Springer is anything like the English Cocker, they have a feathered coat, right? 
The Stabij doesn't have a feathered coat. The Dutch club describes the coat as followed: The coat is long and straight (occasionally a little wavy, but never curly), except on the head where they have short hair. The coat on the back of the front and hind legs is well developed, but it is bushy and rich rather than feathered.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie said:


> Well, if the Welsh Springer is anything like the English Cocker, they have a feathered coat, right?
> The Stabij doesn't have a feathered coat. The Dutch club describes the coat as followed: The coat is long and straight (occasionally a little wavy, but never curly), except on the head where they have short hair. The coat on the back of the front and hind legs is well developed, but it is bushy and rich rather than feathered.


Ah, yes, the bushy vs feathered coat is a bit difference. General care sounds the same though, and their feathers do not grow nearly as long as an English cocker or ESS.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Ah, yes, the bushy vs feathered coat is a bit difference. General care sounds the same though, and their feathers do not grow nearly as long as an English cocker or ESS.


Then I think I found out a good reason to like Welsh springers better than English cockers.  Our cocker has recently been shaved due to the sheer horror of her coat.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie said:


> Then I think I found out a good reason to like Welsh springers better than English cockers.  Our cocker has recently been shaved due to the sheer horror of her coat.


They can get pretty fluffy if spayed or neutered, but not all do. I think in that case, using clippers can be necessary to get the fluff under control, though I've heard good grooming with a stripping knife can make a big difference. I know this is common in spaniels and setters, not sure if it happens with Stabyhouns as well.

If left intact, their coat is pretty wash and wear, really, despite the feathers. Their body coat should never ever be clipped, though most people clip the neck to make it neater (I've been using thinning shears for that so far). 

I grew up with schnauzers who needed to be clipped every month or two, and it was a pain! We did it ourselves to save money, and didn't do anything fancy, but it was definitely work and required me to hold and my mom to clip.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think the thing that sold me most on the breed is that they're active outside the house, and laid back/calm inside the house (provided they get proper exercise, of course). That being a specific trait of the breed vs hoping to get a more calm Springer/etc really sealed the deal for me that these guys were what we were looking for.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I think the thing that sold me most on the breed is that they're active outside the house, and laid back/calm inside the house (provided they get proper exercise, of course). That being a specific trait of the breed vs hoping to get a more calm Springer/etc really sealed the deal for me that these guys were what we were looking for.


Yes, I think that's the fantastic trait and one big reason I didn't end up with a brittany or ESS and that specifically drew me to Welshies. I couldn't live with a dog who was bouncing off the walls.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

I am interested in hearing what the breed club does with your application, on a hunting dog froum I am on they (breeders/owners) are VERY VERY protective about who gets pups and making sure they go to hunting homes only.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm curious too. The woman I've been speaking with even said I could apply now (when I had told her we currently live in an apartment) and then send an ammendment when we move into a house.

Of course, the dreadded fence question is on the application too. 
I might ask her how much importance is put on it so that if it is a big deal, we can keep it in mind when looking for a house.

From what I understand, once you file the application someone from the association contacts you to discuss the breed, what you're looking for in a dog, and put you in contact with local owners so you can interact with the breed yourself. (In my whole province, there is only one Staby owner)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I am interested in hearing what the breed club does with your application, on a hunting dog froum I am on they (breeders/owners) are VERY VERY protective about who gets pups and making sure they go to hunting homes only.


From reading their website it seems like they hold up the dog as an all around dog that can participate in a wide variety of sports or just hang out with its family, so I'd be surprised if they were concerned with only selling to hunting homes. But it might be different from breeder to breeder and where they think their dogs will do best.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

"That is why I said in the hunting dog forum I am on the breeders and owners.." Implying that these particular people are protective, the association as a whole might be a bit more lax, but she is probably going to be limited on the number of breeders who will be willing to let the pups go to a pet home only. The fact that the OP has not mentioned showing, therapy work, sport or service might also narrow down the breeders list. I know in the griff community pet home only are frowned upon by good breeders and I have to speak with them directly about my intent with SAR and a griff. Once I say that the breeders become much more open and engaged in talking about drives and personalities. 

As far as a fence and yard goes, yes it can be a HUGE issue for some breeders, if you live in the middle of nowhere with a neighboor 1/4 mile away then it might be a different story. You just need to convey that the dog will not be out unsupervised and will be crated/inside if you are not home. If you were to say "I just let my dogs run free, don't mind the river we bump up against, I've only lost 2 dogs to drowning!" then you are going to be hung up on fast. 

An apartment is NOT a bad place for a pup to grow up, most apartment dogs get 10x the socialization in a month that farm dogs get in their entire life. Have a detailed plan of exercise and stimuli to discuss with the breeder and I am sure you will waylay any trepidations they have.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> From reading their website it seems like they hold up the dog as an all around dog that can participate in a wide variety of sports or just hang out with its family, so I'd be surprised if they were concerned with only selling to hunting homes. But it might be different from breeder to breeder and where they think their dogs will do best.


The woman at the association did say that the breeder chooses which dog goes where based on the dog and what the family want. I'm sure that if no dogs from a particular litter are appropriate for, say, a family who aren't very active, then not-active-family wont get a pup from that litter, and will have to wait for the next time when pups are born. This of course goes along with where the family is and how far they're willing to travel to get a pup. In terms of what breeder's pups are considered for them, I mean.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> "That is why I said in the hunting dog forum I am on the breeders and owners.." Implying that these particular people are protective, the association as a whole might be a bit more lax, but she is probably going to be limited on the number of breeders who will be willing to let the pups go to a pet home only. The fact that the OP has not mentioned showing, therapy work, sport or service might also narrow down the breeders list. I know in the griff community pet home only are frowned upon by good breeders and I have to speak with them directly about my intent with SAR and a griff. Once I say that the breeders become much more open and engaged in talking about drives and personalities.


Do you mean you've talked to Stabyhoun breeders? Or just hunting dog breeders in general? I did see that attitude in certain hunting breeds more than others when I was doing research and have heard about it from others. In my breed, I didn't find it as an issue at all - even the breeders who specialize in hunting or dual dogs are happy to sell the appropriate dog to pet people.

I was just commenting on the club's message - it would seem strange that a dog billed as a farm and family dog to have a lot of breeders who are so restrictive about hunting vs non-hunting homes. I'll be interested to see what the OP finds out as well.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

The stabyhund breeders on this particular forum are this way. If the association was all about a staby for everyone then they would not have this application process and strict guild lines and more people would have the breed, breeders would not sell at the price they do and no with a spay/neuter contract. Just like if the Labrador breeders decided to tighten up their acts and start going back to quality animals that could do a job there would be fewer of them and fewer suitable homes.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> The stabyhund breeders on this particular forum are this way. If the association was all about a staby for everyone then they would not have this application process and strict guild lines and more people would have the breed, breeders would not sell at the price they do and no with a spay/neuter contract. Just like if the Labrador breeders decided to tighten up their acts and start going back to quality animals that could do a job there would be fewer of them and fewer suitable homes.


The real problem with this is: no breeder, of any breed, ever, is only going to produce working quality dogs. Ever. Not gonna happen. 

So, you know, they can keep them out of 'pet only' homes if they want, but frankly I dont' consider most agility and dog-sports homes anything but pet homes, anyway. Because most people who go into dog sports aren't going into it any more seriously than I'm going on a hike every weekend.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

And that is why some breeders hard cull their dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> And that is why some breeders hard cull their dogs.


I had no idea people still did that. It kind of bemuses me since spayed/neutered is still removed from the gene pool, and that seems to be what I hit most (even with rarer breeds and working breeds) but that's another debate for another thread.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> The stabyhund breeders on this particular forum are this way. If the association was all about a staby for everyone then they would not have this application process and strict guild lines and more people would have the breed, breeders would not sell at the price they do and no with a spay/neuter contract. Just like if the Labrador breeders decided to tighten up their acts and start going back to quality animals that could do a job there would be fewer of them and fewer suitable homes.


Oh, I don't disagree with having tighter restrictions on who should own specific breeds. I was just curious if you had heard that from stabyhoun breeders specifically or not.

Though as the owner of a rare hunting breed, I just can't get behind the attitude of only selling to hunting homes. I can understand if they want the dogs used for breeding to only be in hunting homes or have hunting titles, but just because a dog is bred for hunting doesn't automatically make it a bad pet. I'm well suited to own hunting breeds, I just have no desire to actually hunt with them because it's not an interest of mine. Knowing that your breed is versatile and good as a pet for certain people doesn't mean you have to let them go home with the first person who shows any interest, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't sell on spay/neuter contracts. 

To me, selling to well vetted quality homes who are a good fit for the breed is not the same as selling to only hunting homes.

ETA: Sorry to the OP for the off topic post!


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I was just commenting on the club's message - it would seem strange that a dog billed as a farm and family dog to have a lot of breeders who are so restrictive about hunting vs non-hunting homes. I'll be interested to see what the OP finds out as well.


This is what's going through my mind as well. Stabijs are not pure hunting dogs, it makes no sense to only sell them to hunting homes. The hunting abilities are only one aspect of the breed. It would be a shame if non-hunting people would be denied a puppy just because they weren't planning on hunting with the dog. I can say with certainty that most Stabyhouns are not used for hunting purposes here, in their native Friesland.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Avie said:


> This is what's going through my mind as well. Stabijs are not pure hunting dogs, it makes no sense to only sell them to hunting homes. The hunting abilities are only one aspect of the breed. It would be a shame if non-hunting people would be denied a puppy just because they weren't planning on hunting with the dog. I can say with certainty that most Stabyhouns are not used for hunting purposes here, in their native Friesland.


I really also have to add I hate the idea of losing versatility in what sees to be a really versatile breed. It doesn't make much sense to me, and while I know it happens a lot in other breeds, it makes me sad. This is perhaps because I have a really utilitarian farm and hunting dog that seems to be losing a lot of it's function over time. Functioning CHANGING is natural, but - losing the 'utilitarian' makes me sad. Even if it's losing the 'pet' aspect, rather than hunting, or whatever.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> "That is why I said in the hunting dog forum I am on the breeders and owners.." Implying that these particular people are protective, the association as a whole might be a bit more lax, but she is probably going to be limited on the number of breeders who will be willing to let the pups go to a pet home only. The fact that the OP has not mentioned showing, therapy work, sport or service might also narrow down the breeders list. I know in the griff community pet home only are frowned upon by good breeders and I have to speak with them directly about my intent with SAR and a griff. Once I say that the breeders become much more open and engaged in talking about drives and personalities.
> 
> As far as a fence and yard goes, yes it can be a HUGE issue for some breeders, if you live in the middle of nowhere with a neighboor 1/4 mile away then it might be a different story. You just need to convey that the dog will not be out unsupervised and will be crated/inside if you are not home. If you were to say "I just let my dogs run free, don't mind the river we bump up against, I've only lost 2 dogs to drowning!" then you are going to be hung up on fast.
> 
> An apartment is NOT a bad place for a pup to grow up, most apartment dogs get 10x the socialization in a month that farm dogs get in their entire life. Have a detailed plan of exercise and stimuli to discuss with the breeder and I am sure you will waylay any trepidations they have.


I think what elrohwen meant is that they aren't really considered 'hunting dogs', more of an all around dog for active families. Thus, dogs being 'hunting dogs' or not isn't really important. Plus, I'm already limited in breeders in that there are only 3 in my country currently, so I don't think they want to limit people -more- for getting a dog, that would just limit the dog from growing in popularity even further.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I really also have to add I hate the idea of losing versatility in what sees to be a really versatile breed. It doesn't make much sense to me, and while I know it happens a lot in other breeds, it makes me sad. This is perhaps because I have a really utilitarian farm and hunting dog that seems to be losing a lot of it's function over time. Functioning CHANGING is natural, but - losing the 'utilitarian' makes me sad. Even if it's losing the 'pet' aspect, rather than hunting, or whatever.


Nicely worded, and I agree with you.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> The stabyhund breeders on this particular forum are this way. If the association was all about a staby for everyone then they would not have this application process and strict guild lines and more people would have the breed, breeders would not sell at the price they do and no with a spay/neuter contract. Just like if the Labrador breeders decided to tighten up their acts and start going back to quality animals that could do a job there would be fewer of them and fewer suitable homes.


Considering there are only a handful of breeders in NA to begin with, I'm kind of surprised there are enough on that forum to take a sample from. Of course, people on a hunting forum are going to lean more toward having dogs for hunting anyway.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

It is interesting to see how the American breeders I have interacted with are so strict on the "hunting only" homes while in other places and other experiences they are not as black/white on the issue. 

I do agree with the practice of hunting only homes for certain breeds, mainly because many people will see a great WSS in a home environment and think they are all like that and go to the crappy byb and pick the pup who is doing the "cute pointing thing", pay 200 bucks and come home with a dog who is entrierly unsuited for their needs, but they manage and because they are a "rare breed" they find a stud and produce another litter with no purpose. 

By allowing these pet homes, breed clubs and breeders are widening the worlds perception on their dogs and the population soars until you have a very watered down gene pool that can not do the job they were intended for and are not anything near the breed standard. Just take a look a weims, labs, poodles, gsd, bassets, and most terriers. 

Breeders need to breed for what their dogs were intended for, and if they have dogs who can't hunt for whatever reason, spay them, neuter them then send them on their way.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I also wanted to add that the spay/neuter contract is also to prevent the dogs from being bred outside of breeders approved by the association, to preserve the integrity of the breed. The gene pool in NA is very closely monitored, since it is so small.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> It is interesting to see how the American breeders I have interacted with are so strict on the "hunting only" homes while in other places and other experiences they are not as black/white on the issue.
> 
> I do agree with the practice of hunting only homes for certain breeds, mainly because many people will see a great WSS in a home environment and think they are all like that and go to the crappy byb and pick the pup who is doing the "cute pointing thing", pay 200 bucks and come home with a dog who is entrierly unsuited for their needs, but they manage and because they are a "rare breed" they find a stud and produce another litter with no purpose.
> 
> ...


I guess this is where the disconnect is. Stabys were never bred exclusively as hunting dogs. Being a family companion is one of the things they were bred to do.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

ireth0 said:


> Considering there are only a handful of breeders in NA to begin with, I'm kind of surprised there are enough on that forum to take a sample from. Of course, people on a hunting forum are going to lean more toward having dogs for hunting anyway.


Of course not all owners and breeders are members of the breed club, and this may be the case. Not being a part of the breed club can be a good thing depending on their reasons. If they don't agree with the breed clubs direction (I.E allowing pet homes) or vieing for A.K.C full recognition then to me that is a legtimaite reason to not belong to the breed club but still breed quality dogs. Now if someone is breeding stabyhunds and NSDTR to get a cutsie mutt while claiming to be pure bred that is wrong.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> It is interesting to see how the American breeders I have interacted with are so strict on the "hunting only" homes while in other places and other experiences they are not as black/white on the issue.
> 
> I do agree with the practice of hunting only homes for certain breeds, mainly because many people will see a great WSS in a home environment and think they are all like that and go to the crappy byb and pick the pup who is doing the "cute pointing thing", pay 200 bucks and come home with a dog who is entrierly unsuited for their needs, but they manage and because they are a "rare breed" they find a stud and produce another litter with no purpose.
> 
> ...



Yes, but - where are they sending them on their way TO, when they're not suited but are spayed and neutered? usually, that's a pet home. Do the S/N and you don't have the BYB problem, either, because you've still controlled where the dog ends up.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

I am sorry I have gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I still stand by my statement. Dogs need to be breed for what they were intended for and if they can not do that they should not have been bred. If you get a stabyhund with a bad temperament who kills livestock that is not their intended purpose.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Fun fact: the Dutch breed club encourages Stabyhoun and Wetterhoun owners (especially of those who own bitches) to participate in the breeding program and not sterilize their dog. Especially the Wetterhoun is in a dire situation with the gene pool.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I do agree with the practice of hunting only homes for certain breeds, mainly because many people will see a great WSS in a home environment and think they are all like that and go to the crappy byb and pick the pup who is doing the "cute pointing thing", pay 200 bucks and come home with a dog who is entrierly unsuited for their needs, but they manage and because they are a "rare breed" they find a stud and produce another litter with no purpose.


Yes, but this hasn't actually happened. Not in Welshies anyway. It's pretty much unknown to find them in rescue or see BYBers. The breeders out there might or might not focus on hunting ability, but all screen potential homes very closely whether it's a pet home, show, hunting, agility, whatever. With only 200 or so registered per year, and most sold on limited registration, if there are BYBers they are very few and far between. And they can still hunt. Watson's breeder does not focus on hunting ability, but his dam's line is full of hunting dogs and just seeing him out in our woods, I know he could hunt if I had the motivation to train him for it.

It's not necessary to sell only to working homes to keep control of a breed and make sure they go to appropriate homes who will not breed them for no reason. That's what limited registration and s/n contracts are for. Who's to say that a hunter isn't going to start breeding his dog and selling the puppies to the neighbors? Are hunters morally superior to pet or sport homes? I just don't get that attitude at all.

Oh, and Welshies have been AKC registered for over 100 years and their population certainly hasn't soared, though I think they are fantastic versatile dogs who can hunt or hang out with their family.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I am sorry I have gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I still stand by my statement. Dogs need to be breed for what they were intended for and if they can not do that they should not have been bred. If you get a stabyhund with a bad temperament who kills livestock that is not their intended purpose.


I don't think anyone's disagreeing with BREEDING dogs for their intended purpose. My pet peeve and hate of the moment is people breeding 7lb rat terriers who may barely sometimes squeak by and be within the standard, but are about as capable as a farm dog and hunter as a chi. That's a problem. 

The disagreement is coming from 'selling to pet homes, ever'. Since, frankly, again, not all dogs are going to make it as a working dog, ever, and spaying and neutering effectively removes them from the gene pool. And with Stabyhoun in particular part of their purpose is TO BE A FAMILY DOG, not just a hunting dog. Breeding JUST hunting dogs limits the versatility and purpose of the dog as surely as breeding nothing but pets. 

Or, in the case of the far more common Rat Terrier, part of their purpose is to be a utilitarian farm, hunting and family dog, doing everything from herding to ratting and treeing squirrels and chasing (and catching!) rabbits, to being good with the kids, breeding them JUST to tree squirrels limits the versatility of the breed as surely as the people breeding the tiny ones. One of the primary reasons that if Jack's breeder is still breeding, I will return to her in spite of a strong dislike of her suspected training methods. Her dogs are titled in multiple areas, not just confirmation, and she WORKS THEM. This is important to me, obviously.

But there are still going to breed dogs who won't, don't, and can't work. Pet homes for them doesn't dilute that.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I am sorry I have gone off on a bit of a tangent, but I still stand by my statement. Dogs need to be breed for what they were intended for and if they can not do that they should not have been bred. If you get a stabyhund with a bad temperament who kills livestock that is not their intended purpose.


What I'm saying is this is a multi-purpose dog. That is what they were bred to be. Hunting is one aspect, being a family companion is another, they can also pull sleds in the winter time. A well bred Staby has the capacity to be -all- of those things. They were used as the poor man's farm dog, since they could only afford one all-around dog, vs different dogs for different purposes.

Restricting them to hunting only homes doesn't make sense because they're not exclusively considered a hunting breed.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Yes, but - where are they sending them on their way TO, when they're not suited but are spayed and neutered? usually, that's a pet home. Do the S/N and you don't have the BYB problem, either, because you've still controlled where the dog ends up.


This. And pretty much everything else CptJack has said.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> This. And pretty much everything else CptJack has said.


Yes, you all are typing fiends!


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

I used the WSS as a stand in breed you can insert any breed you want in there. I am not saying temperament and personality is not a factor in breeding but more clubs would do better to follow a stricter breeding standard and contract. 

Ireth0-I am not picking on you, I think you will be a good home for an active dog, I am saying in general dogs need to be bred to do what is in their standard. If they can not do it then they don't meet the standard.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I used the WSS as a stand in breed you can insert any breed you want in there. I am not saying temperament and personality is not a factor in breeding but more clubs would do better to follow a stricter breeding standard and contract.
> 
> Ireth0-I am not picking on you, I think you will be a good home for an active dog, I am saying in general dogs need to be bred to do what is in their standard. If they can not do it then they don't meet the standard.


What I'm saying is that being a companion dog -is- in their standard.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I am saying in general dogs need to be bred to do what is in their standard. If they can not do it then they don't meet the standard.


And not a single person here has disagreed with that. 

They have disagreed with 'dogs should not be sold to nonworking homes'. Because frankly, no breeder is producing only dogs that meet the standard perfectly every time. Not a single one. Those dogs being s/n, having a contract and going to a pet home does not change one thing about the idea that working dogs being bred to work is a Good Thing and would serve breeds well.

And that sometimes working dogs have 'companion dog' written into the standard as part of the purpose they are meant to serve. 

You can breed rat terriers to JUST hunt or JUST be pets, and both would be exactly as far outside their intended purpose.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

I understand that, that is great, fantastic. If they can't do their intended purpose anymore then...(see my above post). I am not against evolving standards to fit the current breed. Yorkie should probably have something about sitting quietly in purses and attacking sock monkeies in their standards to reflect the evolution of the breed. Bully breeds should have something about great temperaments and pulling abilities.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I understand that, that is great, fantastic. If they can't do their intended purpose anymore then...(see my above post). I am not against evolving standards to fit the current breed. Yorkie should probably have something about sitting quietly in purses and attacking sock monkeies in their standards to reflect the evolution of the breed. Bully breeds should have something about great temperaments and pulling abilities.


Who are you referring to in terms of evolving standards?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I understand that, that is great, fantastic. If they can't do their intended purpose anymore then...(see my above post). I am not against evolving standards to fit the current breed. Yorkie should probably have something about sitting quietly in purses and attacking sock monkeies in their standards to reflect the evolution of the breed. Bully breeds should have something about great temperaments and pulling abilities.


But it isn't an evolving standard. Companionship has always been part of the standard for both of the breeds being discussed here. These are not 'hunting dog only' breeds. Neither one was ever intended to JUST hunt. They are supposed to be dogs who do it all, and hunting is a tiny part of the original, intended, purpose of both. What I'm trying to say is, pun intended, they were meant to be jack of all trades, not masters of one, breeds.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> And not a single person here has disagreed with that.
> 
> They have disagreed with 'dogs should not be sold to nonworking homes'. Because frankly, no breeder is producing only dogs that meet the standard perfectly every time. Not a single one. Those dogs being s/n, having a contract and going to a pet home does not change one thing about the idea that working dogs being bred to work is a Good Thing and would serve breeds well.


Exactly. If a dog is neutered and placed in a pet home, it's out of the breeding program. It's not harming the breed by being there. It's not going to father/give birth to more pups that will be unsuitable for the breed's intended purpose. It's done. And what's the alternative, the "hard cull"? I don't see ANY point in killing a dog when neutering it serves the same purpose (removing it from the breeding stock) _and_ provides someone with a nice pet.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

I am not disagreeing with the fact that dogs need to be good companion dogs, but most of the breeds being discussed here were breed to be companions AND hunt, if they can only do one of the two things then they don't fit in the breed standard. I would not own a dog who does not make me happy and one I enjoy outside of work, I understand that.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I used the WSS as a stand in breed you can insert any breed you want in there. I am not saying temperament and personality is not a factor in breeding but more clubs would do better to follow a stricter breeding standard and contract.
> 
> Ireth0-I am not picking on you, I think you will be a good home for an active dog, I am saying in general dogs need to be bred to do what is in their standard. If they can not do it then they don't meet the standard.


I know you were just picking Welshies randomly, but my point is that they are a perfect example of how a breed can stay true to type, be well controlled by its breeders and breed club, and still be sold to pet and sporting homes. Maybe things didn't go the same way for labs or poodles, but who's to say that it would have absolutely been better if only hunters had owned these dogs. Like I said, hunters can breed their dogs indiscriminately just as easily as everybody else.

And I don't think anyone here is arguing that dogs shouldn't be bred for their original function. A very good point here is that Stabyhouns weren't bred just as hunting dogs, so limiting them to that is loosing a lot of their original function.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Selah Cowgirl said:


> I am not disagreeing with the fact that dogs need to be good companion dogs, but most of the breeds being discussed here were breed to be companions AND hunt, if they can only do one of the two things then they don't fit in the breed standard. I would not own a dog who does not make me happy and one I enjoy outside of work, I understand that.


Yes, but you're also missing the other aspects of these breeds and focusing on hunting, as though that's the gold standard for these dogs. A rat terrier going to a home as a ratter, a herder, hunt by sight AND scent, tree AND catch, or, in the case of the Stabyhou puller, still does exactly as much of it's original work as it was intended to do. They're multipurpose dogs, and frankly I don't now how many homes you're going to find that have those dogs do ALL those things. Even your hunting home. 

So, you're still focusing on a single aspect of the breed. That works fine with something like a retriever, when they're bred with a single primary purpose. Not so much when the purpose is 'All around working dog'.

Also, frankly, the jack of all trades, master of none, is going to produce dogs and lines who are better at given tasks. That's why RT whose lineage goes back west are more likely to sight hunt rabbits and catch and bring the down, than scent out a squirrel and tree them. And the ones in Texas, I hear, are more likely to herd effectively. And, yeah, sometimes you get wash outs who can't do one thing, the other, or maybe ANY besides being a sweet pet, no matter how good you're breeding program. Those go to... pet homes.

And fulfill the 'pet and companion' part of their standard. Which, frankly, I don't consider less important. I mean ideally, yes, the best dogs will still do it all - but those are STILL going to be relatively rare and cream of the crop in this situation, because you're breeding for a lot of things at once.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yes, sorry I think I was missing that as well. A Staby isn't supposed to be a hunter and a companion pet. It's supposed to be a hunter, companion pet, watchdog, sled puller, etc., etc.,


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Yes, sorry I think I was missing that as well. A Staby isn't supposed to be a hunter and a companion pet. It's supposed to be a hunter, companion pet, watchdog, sled puller, etc., etc.,


Yep, seriously. They remind me of Rat Terriers enough, and look enough like Springers, that I'm now slightly bemoaning the fact that they're rare and I'm never going to be patient enough to get on that list. Rats ... well, rat, hunt, herd, guard, are companions - seriously 'farm dog, do what needs done' sums it up nicely. I like that about them. I would be sad (am sad) that so many breeders are now BREEDING THEM TO BE nothing but companion dogs, because I like the functionality and versatility, a lot.

But that doesn't mean I'm taking up herding and hunting, either. It means I like that about the breed and want it kept within the breed. I'll still be getting a dog who has a look I like, the right temperament and then, I don't know, keep right on going hiking with my dog, and maybe playing around in some dog sports, and glad that breeders will sell to 'pet only' homes.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yes, add me to the list of people who want this breed now! I adore Welshies, and they share a lot of the same traits, but I love the versatility of the stabyhoun as well. I mean, Welshies are versatile, and I would say that more compete in sports than hunt trials these days, and they make excellent family dogs, but they're certainly not going to herd or pull sleds. Haha I think if I stray from Welsh, that's the direction I would go.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Yes, add me to the list of people who want this breed now! I adore Welshies, and they share a lot of the same traits, but I love the versatility of the stabyhoun as well. I mean, Welshies are versatile, and I would say that more compete in sports than hunt trials these days, and they make excellent family dogs, but they're certainly not going to herd or pull sleds. Haha I think if I stray from Welsh, that's the direction I would go.


I may have actually gone poked around the site, realized there is a breeder in a neighboring state and realized that dealing with the association doesn't seem any different than dealing with an individual breeder. And realized that if I'm years and years out from a dog (I am) that I might possibly not find them at all that big a deterrent to work with. I'm still not sure I want the responsibility that seems to come with it owning a rare breed, but. They don't seem nearly as impossible to get as I'd imagined, if one has patience and a willingness to spend the necessary money.

Still not sure, though. My possible breed list is getting longer, not shorter. So far all they have in common are 'working/sporting' and coming in black and white.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I may have actually gone poked around the site, realized there is a breeder in a neighboring state and realized that dealing with the association doesn't seem any different than dealing with an individual breeder. And realized that if I'm years and years out from a dog (I am) that I might possibly not find them at all that big a deterrent to work with. I'm still not sure I want the responsibility that seems to come with it owning a rare breed, but. They don't seem nearly as impossible to get as I'd imagined, if one has patience and a willingness to spend the necessary money.
> 
> Still not sure, though. My possible breed list is getting longer, not shorter. So far all they have in common are 'working/sporting' and coming in black and white.


Do eet!! Send in the application!

And I don't think there's necessarily a lot of responsibility in owning a rare breed. I'll admit that since Watson is a show prospect, has a fantastic temperament, and his breeder begged, I do feel an obligation to show him (and possibly breed him someday), but the other puppies in his litter didn't come with that responsibility at all. It's kind of fun to educate people about a breed they've never seen before, actually.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I may have actually gone poked around the site, realized there is a breeder in a neighboring state and realized that dealing with the association doesn't seem any different than dealing with an individual breeder. And realized that if I'm years and years out from a dog (I am) that I might possibly not find them at all that big a deterrent to work with. I'm still not sure I want the responsibility that seems to come with it owning a rare breed, but. *They don't seem nearly as impossible to get as I'd imagined*, if one has patience and a willingness to spend the necessary money.
> 
> Still not sure, though. My possible breed list is getting longer, not shorter. So far all they have in common are 'working/sporting' and coming in black and white.


Those were my thoughts too once I started really looking into what it would take. I'm kind of really happy the association exists, because finding a breeder on my own would have been VERY difficult, I think, maybe impossible. Really, they aren't -that- super expensive compared to a lot of other breeds if you're getting one from a reputable breeder. (I've seen many that are far beyond what a staby is) For me the big thing is probably going to be the travel costs in the end. Especially if both my boyfriend and I make the trip together, which I would prefer. Traveling on a plane and through airports with a puppy by myself isn't something I'd like to do if I can help it, although if I had to I would. If I had to be apart form the dog at any point through security or customs or going to the bathroom, etc I would be paranoid as heck.

*Edit* Also the woman at the association I've been speaking with has been really helpful and understanding, and has always gotten back to me within a day or two.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have the questionnaire. Frankly, the springer breeder I was talking to was more intimidating. This one looks pretty danged standard. 

And again: There's one a state away, which we could drive. I think, in fact, this makes them CLOSER that the Springer Breeder I've communicated with. Which I find oddly hysterical.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I have the questionnaire. Frankly, the springer breeder I was talking to was more intimidating. This one looks pretty danged standard.
> 
> And again: There's one a state away, which we could drive. I think, in fact, this makes them CLOSER that the Springer Breeder I've communicated with. Which I find oddly hysterical.


There's no harm in filling in an application! If you change your mind or decide maybe they're not right for you afterall you can always withdraw it and remove yourself from the list.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Yes, the breed is gaining popularity on this forum!  

I also like Stabyhouns a lot. They're happy, friendly, calm dogs, obedient but with a stubborn streak, relaxed in the house, but active outdoors, alert but not sharp. To me, that's just about right.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> There's no harm in filling in an application! If you change your mind or decide maybe they're not right for you afterall you can always withdraw it and remove yourself from the list.


I am SERIOUSLY, at a minimum of FIVE YEARS out from being in a position to take in another dog, I think. Barring catastrophe, which I don't want (like one of the dogs dying). So, yeah, there's no real harm or pressure there.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Avie said:


> Yes, the breed is gaining popularity on this forum!
> 
> I also like Stabyhouns a lot. They're happy, friendly, calm dogs, obedient but with a stubborn streak, relaxed in the house, but active outdoors, alert but not sharp. To me, that's just about right.


I very much agree with this. They're that nice, middle ground that I've been searching for!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I am SERIOUSLY, at a minimum of FIVE YEARS out from being in a position to take in another dog, I think. Barring catastrophe, which I don't want (like one of the dogs dying). So, yeah, there's no real harm or pressure there.


They're not going to make you take a dog just because your turn came on the list. If it's not the right time for you, you can 'pass', if you will, and they'll just go to the next person. But at least your name is in the hat, you know?

I do understand though, we're waiting until next year to apply because I know we can't take in a dog before then at minimum.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> They're not going to make you take a dog just because your turn came on the list. If it's not the right time for you, you can 'pass', if you will, and they'll just go to the next person. But at least your name is in the hat, you know?
> 
> I do understand though, we're waiting until next year to apply because I know we can't take in a dog before then at minimum.


Exactly. I'll probably wait a bit and see what's going on and where we are so I can predict a bit better. I never want to be without a couple of dogs who are at a point in their life to do things, but I also never want to have to handle more than four IN doing things, either. Right now two of them are 6 and 2 of them are under 1. That spread is about right for me, and I like them in pairs, actually, but I don't want to wind up with 5 dogs who all want to Do The Things!!! either. Because I would die. Four I can manage alone. Five? I'm out of hands.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I just looked up the info on the Ameri-Can Stabyhoun Association. Their info is practically identical to the info on the Dutch club's site, which was amusing to read. 

I also read the puppy price and it is quite a bit higher than they would cost from a breeder here. (though I suppose that's not surprising because they're rare over at yours) I wonder, is this price ($1500,-) common for getting a dog in North America? 

Edit: getting a well bred dog, not just getting a dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Avie said:


> I just looked up the info on the Ameri-Can Stabyhoun Association. Their info is practically identical to the info on the Dutch club's site, which was amusing to read.
> 
> I also read the puppy price and it is quite a bit higher than they would cost from a breeder here. (though I suppose that's not surprising because they're rare over at yours) I wonder, is this price ($1500,-) common for getting a dog in North America?


I think it depends on the breed and the quality of the breeder. I've seen Brittanys for $950, Berners for $1200 and Bulldogs for upwards of $2000.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Avie said:


> I wonder, is this price ($1500,-) common for getting a dog in North America?


The english springer breeder I was talking to was quoting me 1200.00 for a pet puppy. So, it's a bit higher than more common dogs, but it's not outside the realm of normal at all. I've also been told (here) that she was extremely CHEAP and that 2000+ would be more normal. There's also a lot of variation with breed, depending on how common the breed is, etc. Jack's breeder's puppy prices are more in the range of 500-750.00. 

All of this is talking about breeders who title and health test and pass 'is this a responsible breeder' tests and PUPPY prices. As an adult dog, Jack cost less than most adoption fees - about 150.00. It's not uncommon for breeders to let those dogs go for the price of a spay/neuter or dental. Or even for free.

And that is ALSO something I'm considering (though not if I go the Staby route, obviously).


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks for the answers! 

The puppy prices for Stabyhouns and Wetterhouns are determined by the Dutch club to be a maximum of €750,- (for a registered pup that has titled and health tested parents). Unregistered Stabyhouns and crosses of Stabyhouns and Wetterhouns (backyard bred) often go for about €300,-. 
Anyway, the Stabyhoun puppy price is on the low end of the scale here, along with the Dutch Shepherd and several other native breeds, with the cheapest breed being the Markiesje where you get a well bred pup for €450,- (as determined by the Markiesje club). These low prices are not exactly normal. I believe most well bred purebreds go for €1000,- and up. (at least, for the breeds I've looked into)

So that's why I was curious about puppy prices abroad. I'd already learned that puppy prices being determined by a breed club is definitely not normal over at yours, right? Or is it done sometimes?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Avie said:


> Thanks for the answers!
> 
> The puppy prices for Stabyhouns and Wetterhouns are determined by the Dutch club to be a maximum of €750,- (for a registered pup that has titled and health tested parents). Unregistered Stabyhouns and crosses of Stabyhouns and Wetterhouns (backyard bred) often go for about €300,-.
> Anyway, the Stabyhoun puppy price is on the low end of the scale here, along with the Dutch Shepherd and several other native breeds, with the cheapest breed being the Markiesje where you get a well bred pup for €450,- (as determined by the Markiesje club). These low prices are not exactly normal. I believe most well bred purebreds go for €1000,- and up. (at least, for the breeds I've looked into)
> ...


I've never heard of puppy prices being determined by the breed club before looking into the Stabyhou, so I'd say it's at LEAST pretty rare.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie, I paid $1600 for Watson. That was a pretty standard price (+/- $100) across all of the Welshie breeders I looked at. The price isn't determined by the breed club officially, but everyone tends to offer the same thing to keep it consistent since it's a small group of breeders.

It sounds like in the Netherlands, they are limiting prices on the native breeds to make them more attractive, and keep them from dying out. I think that's pretty cool, actually.

Oh, and there are two Staby breeders in my state. I think one is a vet professor at the university I attended. Now I want one more!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Puppy prices really vary across breeds (health testing, showing costs, litter size, breed rarity, all of that plus more factors in), but $1500 is actually a lot lower than I would expect for such a rare breed. Casper is a rare breed and he was $1600 (prices for pet AKK can go above $2k, with west coast prices seemingly higher on average). Papillon breeders in Maritime Canada seem to charge around the $1500 range (small litters contribute to that; if breeders want to even attempt to break even after all the showing and health testing and pregnancy costs, they need to charge more than a breeder whose dogs can have 8-10 pups at once). So yeah, that seems fair.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

You people with nearby breeders make me jealous! At least there is an owner in my city, I suppose.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Sorry for the double post but I also wanted to add; Now I'm having visions of future babies being pulled in a sled by a Staby in winter. Gah!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Sorry for the double post but I also wanted to add; Now I'm having visions of future babies being pulled in a sled by a Staby in winter. Gah!


Haha. That's cute! 

DH wants to get a lawn tractor to help with hauling stuff around our land. I said he should get a regular lawn mower and then we can get a Berner to haul firewood. I'd say stabyhoun, but I think we need something bigger, like a Berner. Or a pony.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Another reason we like this breed (as if I haven't mentioned enough already) is that they do well with cold. My boyfriend likes abnormally cold temperatures, and is fine outside with just jeans and a t-shirt or hoodie while I'm in a winter coat and shivering my butt off. He's the kind of person who would sleep in the winter with the window open and fan on, and find that to be a lovely temperature. So, he'll have a companion that can do stuff outside with him when it's far too cold for me to tolerate for long, and I'll be able to stay inside nice and warm without feeling guilty.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Another reason we like this breed (as if I haven't mentioned enough already) is that they do well with cold. My boyfriend likes abnormally cold temperatures, and is fine outside with just jeans and a t-shirt or hoodie while I'm in a winter coat and shivering my butt off. He's the kind of person who would sleep in the winter with the window open and fan on, and find that to be a lovely temperature. So, he'll have a companion that can do stuff outside with him when it's far too cold for me to tolerate for long, and I'll be able to stay inside nice and warm without feeling guilty.


Then a Staby is excellent for your boyfriend.  If you look at the pictures in my photogallery, you'll notice that almost all pictures from 2012 were snow pictures. Somehow I forgot to take pictures last summer. It's.. I'm just, argh. I'm with you, I like warmth. Unfortunately I live in the wrong climate if I wanted warmth all year round.  Glad I got to spend the larger part of last summer in Spain, where it was hot and sunny.


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## ChristinaSavage (Apr 17, 2013)

Hi guys
If you want pictures, advice and discussions about the Stabyhoun, have a look here: https://www.facebook.com/StabyhounUK
The Vice President of the UK Stabyhoun Association is actually originally from Calgary! 
Here is one of a Stabij and a Welsh Springer:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...458941.-2207520000.1366190167.&type=3&theater


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Aww, I just love the picture with the Welshie.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Very cool! I will check it out.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

So an update for those who are interested! I managed to get in touch with a woman who just got a puppy in the US, and is currently the only brown and white Staby in North America! Also, she's agreed to breed her, so maybe someday I'll end up with one of her puppies.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's really cool! I hope you get one so I can live vicariously


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Awesome update! I wonder what the future brings


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