# Dog is scared of me coming home...



## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

greetings to all... 


First, the introductions (sorry for the novella, here):

I have a 4 year old, male, Black Lab/Chow mix named Duncan that is 99% absolutely perfect. I got him from the SPCA when he was 3 months old and he has been a wonderful companion for myself and my family for his entire life.

He is never been aggressive in any way (to the point of being a pansy), has no problems with welcoming strangers into the house (although strangers outside the house get a warning growl until he meets them). 

He is absolutely WONDERFUL when it comes to boundaries... he seems to have been born with an innate sense of property lines and i often let him roam my acre of land while I am gardening or what-not, having no fear that he will wander off. (Neighbors were surprised to learn that I did not have an electric fence buried)

Other dogs in the neighborhood are annoying barkers at every car or passerby, my dog will quietly look at them as though they have lost their mind and continue with his business.

He loves to play, to roll in the grass with a silly grin on his face... _*and he uncontrollably pees all over the floor when i first come home.*_

Yeh, that last part is why I am posting here. Let me explain a bit of the history here;
My fiance' believes (and I often wonder if she is right) that there is something "not quite right" with Duncan. Not quite right in a _Dustin Hoffman/Rainman_ sort of way. He is literally brilliant at learning new things but he is also brilliant at learning them wrong. Once he gets something in his head, it is almost impossible to get it out again. For instance, when I first got him, we had another dog in the house. He went to the other dog's dish to eat and i politely shooed him away from it, pointing him to his bowl in the other room. To this day he does not like to eat around us, waiting for us to leave the area...as though I was telling him that he couldn't eat if we were in the room. 

More to the point, over time he has been known to get our shoes or socks when we are gone and bring them down to the living room to... well, hang out with, I suppose. He doesn't chew them or harm them... just gets lonely, I guess. When he first started doing this, I got on to him. As he continued to do it, I became more forceful and eventually (yeh, I know...chew me out for this) i would go so far as to smack him on the nose with the slipper or whatever and became vocally and physically very intimidating.

Well, I don't think that he got the connection quite right. Now, if I come home and notice him in any way (no matter how positive), he loses control of his bladder in fear. He feels as though I am going to get onto him even if he has done nothing wrong. If I let him out to "take care of business" and let him calm down again... we are fine. Any other time we interact, we are fine. It is specifically when I first come in after having been gone for any period of time.

This is, naturally, becoming a serious problem. I have tried positive re-enforcement, I've tried ignoring the problem, I've tried getting on to him about it... I am completely at a loss.

Please help! I am very interested in any suggestions or commiserating stories that can help me undo this.
Thanks for listening to my loOOong story.

peace!
~tc.m


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

have you considered crating?


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

I won't chew you out for smacking your dog with slippers after coming home. This created the problem, and I think you know this, but I also think the numerous pee spots on your carpet should be "chewing out" enough.

This is a submissive urination issue. The most commonly prescribed remedy is to ignore your dog completely when you get home. Do not reassure him, do not say anything to him. Don't even look at him. He may still pee. Ignore it. Walk right through the room and keep going about your business. Under NO circumstance should you yell at him, touch him or assume any kind of intimidating body language. Remain completely calm as if the dog is not there. It may take awhile but with patience and consistency, this may help.

If you've tried the above method, have you tried crating him while you're away?


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

You beat your dog, he's scared of you now. You have to make him like you again. That's all there is, it will be a long process. You can only keep rewarding him for good behavior. The scent of you was on the socks and shoes, he was only trying to be reminded of his humans and what he got instead was a beating. You have lost his trust and you must rebuild it. It could be a week or it could be never.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with your dog.  He's very smart and a quick learner. That's the good news. 

We all make mistakes in training and you have made a mistake by teaching him to be afraid of you when you come home. Maybe by coming home to find a shoe in the living room and punishing him for it? In any case, he is now being submissive when you come home to prevent you from punishing him. That's the bad news. 

Read rosemaryninja's post *over and over* and have your fiance read it, too. After some time (however long it takes) he will get used to the new routine.

Good luck!


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## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

rosemaryninja said:


> ...Ignore it. Walk right through the room and keep going about your business...


thanks for the advice, rosemary and keechak (and FourIsCompany!)... I would really rather not crate him unless it becomes absolutely necessary. I did the crate thing when he was a puppy and he was heartbreakingly sad. absolutely hated it. we were all extremely miserable through the entire process. 

I've really been going with the whole "ignore him" thing as you suggest for a while now, it is obviously frustrating but good to hear some informed feedback that it may help. I'll keep up that tack but am certainly open to other constructive feedback here.

oh, sorry, Westhighlander. I forgot to include you in the conversation. "constructive", as in _constructive criticism_.

```
Definition:  	criticism or advice that is useful 
and intended to help or improve something, 
often with an offer of possible solutions.
```
I got the fact that I caused this. In fact, I believe I mentioned that. I came here for help because I'm open to fixing it, not being needlessly berated. Thanks for playing though. When you have a helpful idea or two, please share.

~tc.m


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

If you don't want to crate him, maybe you could dog proof the kitchen (no shoes  ) and get a couple baby gates to keep him in there. It will limit the amount of trouble he gets into and keep the clean up easier. 

A second thought is you could have a favorite toy or yummy treat in the car with you when you come home and toss it on the floor (without looking at him!) the instant you step inside the door. This will redirect his mode and make him curious about what you have brought him. If you do this every time, (or maybe just one time, since he's such a quick study) he will become curious instead of so extremely submissive. Change things up to get him out of the routine. Enter by another door. Be singing or whistling as you enter. Do anything you can think of to make your homecoming appear different to him. But continue the no talk, no touch, no eye contact.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

The key lesson Duncan needs to learn here is that NOTHING bad is going to happen when you come home. Right now every time you get back, he expects you to hit him. He then pees -- a submissive gesture in canine body language -- to try to coax you into not hitting him. That's what submissive urination is. He pees because he knows he's done something wrong, but he doesn't know what or why. 

How long have you been doing the ignoring thing? It will take awhile to kick in, varying from dog to dog. Remember, you should act as if you can't even see Duncan. Be aware of your body language. Leaning over him, reaching for him, talking loudly or deeply are all subtle actions that can intimidate him. If you work at it long enough, you will get to a point where he does not pee when you come in. Don't immediately go over to him just yet. Without looking at him, get a treat out of your pocket, toss it gently in his general direction, say "Good dog" and walk on. Baby steps are a central key to any kind of dog training.

You need to rebuild trust with your dog; not just when you come home, but in your day-to-day interactions with him. Right now, his impression of you probably goes something like: "On the whole, a cool guy, but can be unpredictable and SCARY." Try to reduce to a minimum (if not zero) the number of times you punish him. "Punishment" constitutes anything from physically beating him to tweaking his nose to shouting at him. To do this, try to minimize his opportunities to be bad. If he steals your slippers, put your slippers in a drawer or in a room with the door closed. You are the human, you outsmart him. 

Edit: FIC posted at the same time that I did, but he (he? she? sorry! ) has a good point about baby-gates. If you can confine Duncan to another room, and let him out of there when you get home, it may help. Dogs don't generalize well.

Can you describe in more detail what happens when you get home? Is he already waiting in the living room, and then you enter and he pees? Or is he usually in another room where you have to seek him out? Before, when you hit him with the slippers, would you take him to the slipper and hit him with it? Or take the slipper to wherever he was and hit him with it?


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## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

again, excellent posts, one and all...

to answer a few questions:
when i first walk in the door, most of the time he is excited to see me. doing little circles, wagging his tail, general joyful behavior. but if i do anything at all other than going to the back door, opening it and letting him out...he pees. i've tried being obviously happy. talking happy to him (good dog!, etc) with limited success... he knows the pattern. so, if i deviate from his expected pattern (like, don't open the back door, call him to me, even go into another room where he is)... it sets him off. Once he's been outside and comes back in, he seems to be ok (although i suspect the only reason that he doesn't pee then is because he already has). lately, his behavior has degenerated into not even being happy to see me all the time ...although seriously i can't think of what has caused this. he often goes straight into being afraid.

the slipper episodes were normally just me picking up the slipper from the floor in the living room, shaking it at him and (threateningly) asking him who's slipper it was (_is this your damn slipper? I don't think so! Leave my stuff alone, dammit!_) ...that sort of thing. It certainly did go so far as me popping him on the nose or forehead with the slipper on occasions, by that time I'm sure _both_ of us were really stressed out. I know he was extremely intimidated by the whole thing, but I'm not sure he was making the right connection as to _why_. Eventually, we just removed his access to the bedrooms, etc. so it became a "non-problem".

All of our floors are hardwood, with an area rug in the living room...so there isn't much rug damage to worry about at all... just the cleanup. the gate idea would have otherwise been great though (actually, we have doors in the house that could isolate him to the kitchen/foyer).

I like the idea of the treat as I come in the door and otherwise completely ignoring him until he comes to me. this is an extension of what we have been trying and it at least gives me some hope that this will work out.

"On the whole, a cool guy, but can be unpredictable and SCARY."
rosemaryninja, i think that you are right on target with this. in any other situation, he and i are as thick as thieves. we just need to find a way around this.

thanks again for all the continued interest!

~tc.m


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

One rule of thumb: Dogs do not associate past with the present. They cannot see a slipper and think "oh, that's the slipper I brought downstairs just now." Even if he chews a slipper and you find the chewed up slipper two minutes after, and go over and scold him with it, he has no clue what he's done wrong. Dogs live in the present. If you punish them, you are punishing them for whatever they are doing *at that moment*, not ten seconds ago and certainly not two hours ago. I'm telling you this not just so you recognise that shaking the slipper at him is useless, but also as a piece of general knowledge to apply to the rest of your interactions with him. 

As a result of this piece of psychology, Duncan has no idea that bringing slippers to the living room is wrong. He does know that the sight of the slipper very often means he is being scolded. (Go show him the slipper, right now. Chances are he won't be thrilled by it.) If he's smart enough, he may also know that slippers in the living room means he gets scolded. It doesn't matter if he put the slippers there or not. In other words, if you put the slippers in the living room yourself, he'd still feel as guilty and fearful as he would if he had taken them there. 

The next time you come home, have something really yummy with you. I don't mean a Milkbone or a piece of his kibble. I'm thinking an eighth of a cooked hot dog. When you come in, and he is there, drop it on the floor near him and MOVE ON. Do not bend down, do not turn to him and feed him the treat -- this will most likely spark off a "wait, what's happening, why is this different, what's he going to do" kind of reaction (ie, peeing). Drop the treat on the floor, let him eat it, but walk to the back door like you always do and let him out. 

Like I said, Duncan sees you as a nice guy, but one who is *unpredictable*. Why doesn't he pee when you head to the door and let him out? Because it's predictable. It's a routine. He knows what your next course of action is and what's expected of him. So stick to it, but start incorporating rewards. When he relieves himself outside, give him another treat (it doesn't have to be another hot dog this time). When he comes back in and approaches you, you break the "Duncan doesn't exist" routine, talk in your happiest happy voice, give him a rub behind the ears and a back scratch.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

tc.m said:


> thanks for the advice, rosemary and keechak (and FourIsCompany!)... I would really rather not crate him unless it becomes absolutely necessary. I did the crate thing when he was a puppy and he was heartbreakingly sad. absolutely hated it. we were all extremely miserable through the entire process.
> 
> I've really been going with the whole "ignore him" thing as you suggest for a while now, it is obviously frustrating but good to hear some informed feedback that it may help. I'll keep up that tack but am certainly open to other constructive feedback here.
> 
> ...


Now you know how your dog feels. You should have offered him "a helpful idea" of what to do if you didn't want him do whatever it is you don't like. I'm treating you exactly the way you treated your dog. Do you really understand how much damage you inflicted on him for him to pee like that? I don't think so. So you want help or just someone to tell you it was ok and he'll get over it? You can do what all the other posters tell you but you may never be able to fix this. If he is peeing, and not just hiding he is seriously afraid of you. Sorry if that's not what you want to hear.


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## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> Now you know how your dog feels..


Westie... you are a piece of work. I'm not going to regale you with a slew of adjectives or nouns that describe the sort of person that I believe you to be, i'll let someone else that seriously cares about your inane banter do that.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what I want to hear. It has to do with the way that you are attempting to ride rough-shod over someone who is asking for help without actually offering any. 

I came to this forum with an open, honest request for assistance in undoing what I (by my own admission) have done by attempting to chastise my dog for his misbehavior. 

You, on the other hand, have done nothing but berate and criticize without offering any sort of true value to the conversation. In the vernacular of my trade, you are titled a "troll" and when not being outright ridiculed, are more often than not completely ignored. Your posturing is absolutely pathetic.

I have no idea if this is some sort of superiority/inferiority issue with you or if perhaps you are incapable of offering any real assistance or if you are merely an ass. To be honest, I simply do not care. If I did care, I might suggest that you take a pointer from your (obviously wiser) forum-mates and attempt to spend your time _helping_ the current situation. 

If your platitude-laden posts are any indication, you empathize strongly with the plight of animals and at least I can applaud you for that. However, if you truly were interested in _helping_, help me put a dog's mind at rest and stop him from being so scared that he pees on himself. Actually, nevermind. Forget that. I've already gotten plenty of _intelligent_ feedback.

rosemaryninja didn't hesitate to point out that i had caused this. Neither did FourIsCompany. Nor did I deny it. But the similarities between their advice and your babble ends there. Stop trying to lash out and whine about the damage done and you may have a breath left for helping with the solution. 

I did nothing out of malice, I made mistakes that are regrettable and I'm trying to make it right again. oh dear gawd, the humanity of it all! The drama! Perhaps you would rather just come to my house and beat me like the evil bastard that I am? 

Damn, look at that; I _did_ have a few adjectives and nouns for you after all.

As this post is borderline abusive, it is possible that I may not be posting here anymore (_well_ worth it). If so, then I would like a moment to sincerely thank the other posters for their help in trying to undo this. I will certainly take your advice to heart and I hope that it helps. If I am able to continue with you, I will be glad to offer any further relevant information on this issue that you need.

Thank you again for all of your input
~tc.m


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

tc.m said:


> Westie... you are a piece of work. I'm not going to regale you with a slew of adjectives or nouns that describe the sort of person that I believe you to be, i'll let someone else that seriously cares about your inane banter do that.
> 
> This has absolutely nothing to do with what I want to hear. It has to do with the way that you are attempting to ride rough-shod over someone who is asking for help without actually offering any.
> 
> ...


I have offered you help, it's just you can't see it. From your post here, I gather you are someone who can't control their emotions and are prone to anger. Dogs will pick up on that. Fix yourself first, otherwise your dog will continue to have the same reaction to you.


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## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

"anger" ?

oh dear lord, somebody close this thread before westie pops!


i'm leaving before this turns even more maudlin.
thanx again to the rest of you.
peace


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## MichMoeLevi (Apr 17, 2009)

tc.m, I would ignore Westie. There is no way they can tell what kind of person you are from the internet. For one thing, they come off condescending, and they probably aren't like that in person to person communication, so by the same logic, you are probably not in need of anger-management! 

You know your faults in the situation with your dog and you recognize the need to fix what you did. There is a lot of great advice in this thread and others, so I hope you don't leave! I've noticed from the couple weeks I've observed this forum, that you get an array of personalities that don't always mesh. 

I think that with a lot of work, you will be able to regain your dogs trust and can start over.


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## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

MichMoeLevi said:


> tc.m, I would ignore Westie...


thank you for the thoughts. i also had a PM from another forum member who said similar. it's nice to see that there are also considerate, helpful individuals here.

I said in my PM reply that I perhaps should not have allowed westie to irritate me as much and i meant it. hopefully the assistance that i have received will resolve the situation. if not, i would be glad to return to gather help for the next step.

thank you again
peace
~tc.m


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## zxckelly (Apr 30, 2009)

I once fostered a submissive pee-er. I believe if you follow the advice in this thread it will get better, it just takes time and consistency. It took about three weeks for the pooch I fostered to stop 100 percent.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I think one thing you need to remember is dogs do not speak english, so they will not understand what you are telling them if you have not taught it to them.

It's like, if your dog doesn't know off, but you keep saying it because you think they will do it, it's kind of pointless, unless you've taught them that off means, well, get off haha.

Instead of pointing to something and thinking he will know what you mean, lead him to whatever you want him to do and show him what to do.

Start practicing some N.I.L.I.F..it's a sticky in the training section. It will help with his confidence and help give some manners and work that brain!


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks for the entertainment. Always a good time when a new member gets into a bitch slap (can I say that on TV?) with a long-time member.

Anyhoo. This was actually a very good discussion on the topic of submissive peeing, cattiness aside (can I say cattiness on a dog forum?). Our dog did it from the day we got her as a pup. We followed the advice presented here and she got over it in time. She'll still occasionally pee when she sees someone she hasn't seen in a while, but I've come to know the signs and can almost always distract her enough to prevent it.

In all the drama, I'm not sure if I saw that bit of advice here, i.e. once you get to the point where the dog isn't peeing every time he greets you and you know the signs that he might, it's time to start working in a little distraction. I used to do a lot of things to distract my dog, including saying "let's go!" and moving rapidly away from her. She would get excited that we were going somewhere (usually to the back yard or for a walk) and immediately come out of her squat to follow me. It worked at doggie daycare, too, where she loved the people so much that she peed every time she saw them. She practically came out of her skin to get to them, so I know it was an excitement-based pee and not fear-based. Other times I would ask for an immediate sit or down before greeting, which stopped the peeing. And I asked everyone she greeted to keep their voices low and calm, to not use high-pitched tones, etc.

Blah blah. Others have said it much better so I'm done. It can be fixed. Good luck and let us know how it goes.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Winnie, yours was excitement pee which is different than submissive urination. Excitement pee is much easier to overcome and managed. Submissive urination from fear is much harder especially when the trigger is the owner and not something or someone from the past they won't see again.

I think this is more of an owner problem. Someone who loses control so easily needs to fix themselves first. Dogs know better than to trust someone who could once again could resort to hitting them. No amount of treats will change that. You might not like me but I don't condone animal abuse. Sometimes sorry is not enough.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Okay, okay, play nice guys. We all recognise that tc.m is the Big Bad Wolf here and we're all on the dog's side now, no? No need for the aggression. I think we can all agree that a guy who arrives saying "I hit my dog and want to make things right again" is still several levels better than the multitudes of guys we get saying "my dog has been unconscious for the last hour, what should I do" or "I want my Rottie to be ferocious so he can protect my home". At least tc.m is making an honest effort to better his relationship with his dog. 

Ugh. Forum drama. 

*washes hands with soap*


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Winnie, yours was excitement pee which is different than submissive urination. Excitement pee is much easier to overcome and managed. Submissive urination from fear is much harder especially when the trigger is the owner and not something or someone from the past they won't see again.


Good point - I do see that. I do think some of the same techniques will work, however, e.g. ignoring the dog & positive distraction. The common theme is to keep it low-key -- works for both kinds of peeing, don't you think? The trigger thing is a tough one, though, I admit. But not impossible. It'll take time and hard work, to be sure, but it's not impossible.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

winniec777 said:


> Good point - I do see that. I do think some of the same techniques will work, however, e.g. ignoring the dog & positive distraction. The common theme is to keep it low-key -- works for both kinds of peeing, don't you think? The trigger thing is a tough one, though, I admit. But not impossible. It'll take time and hard work, to be sure, but it's not impossible.


In your case that works because your dog is just excited and you are controlling the stimuli and the situation. In the OP's situation, the dog doesn't really trust the owner and that distrust is the trigger so that has to be repaired. Dog's are very good at sensing their owner's emotional state so that's something that can't be faked. 

That's why I think in this situation, unless the OP can truly control himself, the dog will sense that and the problem will never really go away. Not impossible, but maybe not the best match in the world - fearful dog , volatile owner.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I believe that _Westhighlander_ does have some good points... Maybe rubbing off on everyone the wrong way, put some good points none the less. ; )

Donatello submissively pees, and he used to be _so_ bad about it, that it was frustrating!

I believe that some dogs are more perceptive to their owner's emotions than other dogs... And I think that _sometimes_ those are the dogs that have had rough lives.

Training Donatello used to be a great hassle and I swore up and down if I went through it another day I'd have to wear a poncho! Just simply teaching him to "sit" and "shake" would have him piddling on me! (And I hadn't even _smacked_ him around, and the tone of my voice would be light and cheerful.) Every now and then, if I make him do a trick for me when he's _not expecting me to_, he dribbles... 

The few weeks I was losing my cool with him, would result in me hoisting him up from the sofa to lug him back to my room, only to cause him to spray the entire living room, furniture and walls with urine! 

After a couple months of some steady routines, and constant positive reinforcements he doesn't even need my assistance anymore, so no more dribbling.

I understand first-hand what it's like to lose your cool with your dog and have him fear you and your touch and the worst damage you think you've done was holler at him good and send him to his sofa. Heh- Some dogs are _really_ sensitive and don't take any form of discipline lightly.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Yup sounds like you learned the hard way dogs don't always connect what they are punished for with the proper crime. He connected the hitting with you coming home and his feelings at the time.

He thinks your just mean when you come home and hit him for being happy to see you.. Which he can't help.

Rosemarie's advice is right on, but it could take a year or more to get rid of this problem.

You really do need to just ignore him when you come home. No eye contact, no talk, no touch.

Maybe try inadvertently dropping a food item after a while. In time he'll probably just stop reacting much at all when you get home but should get past that.

Unfortunately until you get him over this, any positive interaction when you get home is only going to reward and reinforce this submissive urination not help it.


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## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> I think this is more of an owner problem. Someone who loses control so easily needs to fix themselves first.


westie...well, at least you are consistently ignorant. I'll give you that. 

this isn't a case of me not being able to control my anger. this isn't me "losing it" and no matter how much you try to frame me as some hot-headed bad guy to make yourself feel vindicated for coming off in this thread as a...well, as a _hot-headed bad guy_, you are only making yourself look worse.

If he was truly afraid of me, he would always be afraid. he wouldn't want to see me. ever. the fact is that 99% of the time we are absolutely best friends. it is in this one, specific time-frame that he gets scared because he is confused. As soon as he realizes that i'm not angry at him when i come in the door, it's back to happyville. after that specific moment we are inseparable. 

i have no doubt that there have been some seriously aggressive people come through these forums that have done some seriously dark things...but please stop trying to vilify me because i called you out for being an ass in the first place. i popped him on the nose with a slipper, you insufferable boob. 

was it right? no. did it cause this situation? yes. however, comments that the owner_ needs to fix his anger issues and stop losing control _make you look like a complete idiot.

if you honestly cannot help yourself and really feel the need to lash out and redirect the idiocy of your posts... take it to me in a PM. don't worry, I'll answer it. 

I've certainly answered every single one of the other PMs that I've received agreeing that you were completely out of line. 

~t


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

tc.m said:


> westie...well, at least you are consistently ignorant. I'll give you that.
> 
> this isn't a case of me not being able to control my anger. this isn't me "losing it" and no matter how much you try to frame me as some hot-headed bad guy to make yourself feel vindicated for coming off in this thread as a...well, as a _hot-headed bad guy_, you are only making yourself look worse.
> 
> ...


Your post again confirms everything about you that I had thought. I thought you were ignoring me, but you continue to call me an idiot and lash out at me. How are you displaying yourself as someone who is under control?
I don't need a PM from you , I have nothing to hide. It is a public forum and it is important for new dog owners to learn from your mistakes.


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## tc.m (May 5, 2009)

i suggested a PM so that other posters wouldn't have to read your crap. anything that there is to learn from this has already been posted and you certainly aren't adding to that (not that you have from the beginning, but as I said... you are consistent).

further, you seem to be confusing absolute disdain for some sort of anger. not that you have gotten anything else correct so this doesn't really surprise me.

however, for once you actually said something useful.
you are absolutely right about one thing... i thought i was ignoring you.
my bad. let's see if i can get it right this time.

this particular soap-box is all yours, my friend. i guess i'll go pull the wings off of flies or feed alka-seltzer to seagulls or whatever else you have convinced yourself i do to amuse myself.

now you can run along and '_help_' someone else in your wonderfully intuitive fashion. or maybe, you can count this as a competition and use this thread to strut how you 'scared me away' or 'put me in my place' or whatever else acts as a pacifier for you.  whatever.

later.
~t


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I believe that this thread would have done a lot of good for people, had it not got out of hand and stayed on topic...

I hear all the time from my clients that they can't understand why their dog runs and hides when they walk through the door... It would have been interesting to see what others would have brought to the table.

Can we continue the thread, I think it'd be really beneficial? (Despite the conflict of interests?)

A lot of people I know mention that their dogs looks "guilty" or has that "look" as if it did something bad while they were away... Is there any way to reassure your dog that "coming home from errands" isn't a _bad_ thing and that they're not going to be punished for you walking through the door?

I personally, don't get that reaction, when I come home, Donatello perks up and wiggles in his seat on the sofa whining and whimpering so _loud_ until he bursts with excitement when I walk over to greet him...


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

tc.m said:


> i suggested a PM so that other posters wouldn't have to read your crap. anything that there is to learn from this has already been posted and you certainly aren't adding to that (not that you have from the beginning, but as I said... you are consistent).
> 
> further, you seem to be confusing absolute disdain for some sort of anger. not that you have gotten anything else correct so this doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> ...


It is actually pretty obvious to someone observant why your dog continues to behave this way. You can say whatever you want but your posts continue to paint a picture of what your dogs sees. Fix yourself first, be calm and rationale.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

Not going to get involved in the drama here, but I did want to offer an encouraging story. My boy, Bandit, came from the shelter with a huge fear of men, and would submissively pee every time my husband came home from work, or came in from outside. This was happening 2 - 3 times a day. If my husband approached him in the house (i.e., walked past, or got up from his chair in Bandit's direction), he would crouch and pee. It was a pretty severe case.

We did what the other posters here are suggesting, and had DH completely ignore Bandit at all times, unless Bandit came up to him on his own accord. If Bandit did approach DH on his own, he'd gently rub Bandit on the chin, side of the neck, or on the chest - all very non-threatening, "safe" places for a fearful dog to be touched. 

Eventually, Bandit stopped the submissive urination - it took about 2 months. There were times I was sure that Bandit would never trust my husband! But, we're making progress, slowly but surely. Although the peeing has stopped, he's still wary of my husband. We're playing some additional games to help him get over it - and you might want to consider these games, too.

A great one is to teach the dog "Touch" - it's a skill where you put out the back of your palm for the dog to touch with his nose. It's easy to teach - most dogs will reach out with their nose to touch an outstretched hand. When his nose hits your hand, gently say "Yes" or "good boy", or whatever you use, and give him a treat. I've found that this skill builds confidence in the dog to approach a scary person. Bandit learned it in just one day, and now he'll run up to my husband and "touch" his hand if we ask him to. It's doing a world of good for their relationship.

You might also try carrying a pocketful of treats with you throughout the day. Then, anytime the dog voluntarily approaches you, hand him a treat without saying anything. The goal is to build a more positive outlook on you in the dog's mind. I'd still ignore him when you first come home, but throughout the rest of the day, try to make any experiences with you as positive as possible.

Hope all this helps!


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> It is actually pretty obvious to someone observant why your dog continues to behave this way. You can say whatever you want but your posts continue to paint a picture of what your dogs sees. Fix yourself first, be calm and rationale.


It's actually not obvious, and a pretty counter intuitive solution for most people.

Most people would not intuitively think coming in the door and being very sweet and nice, petting giving a treat etc. would actually reinforce and build the behavior of submissive peeing.

Losing control in anger is kicking your dog, harming it. Giving a dog a little swat or verbally raising your voice is not an anger management issue, it's just a simple honest training mistake. A very very common one I might add.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

What a high level of harassment for such a potentially helpful thread. Why would we want to scare anyone who has swatted at/hit (not beaten) their dog, admits it is wrong, and wants help to better the situation away from seeking help?


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

tc.m said:


> i suggested a PM so that other posters wouldn't have to read your crap. anything that there is to learn from this has already been posted and you certainly aren't adding to that (not that you have from the beginning, but as I said... you are consistent).
> 
> further, you seem to be confusing absolute disdain for some sort of anger. not that you have gotten anything else correct so this doesn't really surprise me.
> 
> ...


I really don't want to suggest this since I really think you are a great writer. I have been amused by your use of the English language. But, since it is becoming obvious that you are having trouble really ignoring Westhighlander, there is an ignore function where you can have Westies posts not show up on your computer. I have used it from time to time when some people just got my hackles up.
Just a little friendly FYI


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

TxRider said:


> It's actually not obvious, and a pretty counter intuitive solution for most people.
> 
> Most people would not intuitively think coming in the door and being very sweet and nice, petting giving a treat etc. would actually reinforce and build the behavior of submissive peeing.
> 
> Losing control in anger is kicking your dog, harming it. Giving a dog a little swat or verbally raising your voice is not an anger management issue, it's just a simple honest training mistake. A very very common one I might add.


I guess you missed the part where he swatted the dog on the nose with his slippers?

The obvious part is that the dog is continuing to do this so he's picking up on something the owner is doing to scare him into behaving this way.

The end result is that the dog is continuing to pee submissively despite his attempts at being "nice". He is picking up on something that continues to scare him. But like I said, this situation is different than the other cases where it wasn't the owner that caused the damage but it was cause by a previous owner. Those cases are easier to solve since the dog can disassociate his previous experiences given that he is in a new situation with new people that did not cause him harm.


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## loganbean (Dec 3, 2008)

Maybe some people never lose their cool with their animals. They are perfect and never did anyting that they regetted later.
It's pretty sad that someone came here looking for a solution and attacks were made at his character. 
Someone in Tampa threw a 4 month old baby on the ground after grabbing him from his mother, then fled the house with the little one. The baby was found dead on the side of the highway- tossed out the moving car like a discarded beer can. That is sick. That is anger. How about we put things (a swat on the nose and some angry words) into perspective.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

loganbean said:


> How about we put things (a swat on the nose and some angry words) into perspective.


Perspective? On the internet?


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Independent George said:


> Perspective? On the internet?


ROFL!

That's hilarious... Like I was telling someone, _"The only people that are losers and need to get a life are those that sit up at night and lose sleep worrying about what they're going to say next on a forum... Just to have the last word..."_

Anyway- I really think the serious issue at hand here should be touched on. I'd like to hear what everyone suggests.



loganbean said:


> How about we put things (a swat on the nose and some angry words) into perspective.


How true! I've lost my cool before with Donatello, and "losing my cool" was hollering at him and commanding him to "go lay down!" That was enough to devastate him. 

Like I mentioned earlier, some dogs are really sensitive to discipline; And in the OP case, the dog may have taken that slipper to the nose like a kick in the ribs, a punch to the face...


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

Tc.m- I would strong suggest you crate him while you are gone. That way he won't be able to go get shoes or socks while you aren't home. BUT, if he's not hurting them...what's the big deal...?

Second, peeing is a submissive behavior. He realizes you are the boss, and in reaction to that...he pees. My older dog used to do it when she was a puppy...my younger dog doesn't do it at all. Just depends on the dog.

There are some things that our dogs just "do"...because they are dogs and aren't perfect. My dog barks at people who walk by our house. She will probably always do this because that's just the way she is. She's very friendly, but very protective of her house and of her masters. That's the way she is wired, we love her anyways. Dogs are like children, no matter how many times you tell them not to do something...there are some things they will always do.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

emily



> Tc.m- I would strong suggest you crate him while you are gone. That way he won't be able to go get shoes or socks while you aren't home. BUT, if he's not hurting them...what's the big deal...?


I haven't read every reply but most, it appears to me more people are interested in stirring the pot. I believe your's is the 1st post to mention of why or what's the problem. Just for giggles I thought it would be cool to have my personal dog fetch my slippers from bathroom and bring to front room to me and it is super. She gets a kick out of it and occasionally she just does it on her own whether I want slippers or not. I found it was a lot easier to just shut the bathroom door)if it got to be bothersome) that stopped it completely. I have a bad habit I will leave a handkerchief on my recliner and If I get up and go in different room she thinks it's fun to grab hankie and run around with it until I call her and she is proud bringing it to me. She trained me to stop leaving my hankies in the chair when I leave room. I'm old school trainer with all that entails and I'm sure I can stop all this stuff but she's not harming/tearing/chewing hankies or slippers. That's why I have not jumped on this thread because I couldn't understand the importance of the original problem of socks etc. If I hit my thumb with a hammer and it hurts, well if I keep hitting my thumb it's going to keep hurting when I stop hitting thumb the hurt magically disappears if OP stops what he is doing the peeing etc will eventually disappear.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

wvasko- it's funny how much dogs train their masters without us even realizing it


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

emily445455 said:


> wvasko- it's funny how much dogs train their masters without us even realizing it


I surely do agree and that's the beauty of it, I do believe it's called payback and some of us deserve a little payback. It is also so cool to see the dog's personality come bubbling out when they do this silly stuff to us.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> I guess you missed the part where he swatted the dog on the nose with his slippers?
> 
> The obvious part is that the dog is continuing to do this so he's picking up on something the owner is doing to scare him into behaving this way.
> 
> The end result is that the dog is continuing to pee submissively despite his attempts at being "nice". He is picking up on something that continues to scare him. But like I said, this situation is different than the other cases where it wasn't the owner that caused the damage but it was cause by a previous owner. Those cases are easier to solve since the dog can disassociate his previous experiences given that he is in a new situation with new people that did not cause him harm.


Actually with some dogs, one act is all it takes. My niece spanked her family dog just once, not harshly, and now a year later it is just now beginning to not pee whenever she tries to pet it, and she is about the sweetest most caring young girl you'll ever meet, and cries because she made that mistake.

It happens. A swat with a slipper is not losing control and it's not abuse. The dog connected the swat with being excited when master comes home.

Then the next day the dog pees in appeasement because he doesn't want to get a swat for being glad master is home. Master is all fussy and loving and appeasing and praising so dog will not pee.. And the dog otoh learns that peeing is what master wants, peeing gets him love and affection he desires...

And on it goes, the more he loves and fusses and pets when he gets home, the nicer that he is, the more the dog is reinforced to think peeing is what master wants.

And master comes here for help, and gets berated by someone reading what they want to into what's not there.

The cure is not not give him any affection when you come home, no eye contact, no touch, no words... So you don't reinforce the peeing and it should stop. When it stops work from there. Give affection when he offers a different behavior than submissive peeing. It could take months to be fixed though.


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## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

tc.m said:


> ...i guess i'll go...feed alka-seltzer to seagulls or whatever else you have convinced yourself i do to amuse myself.


Yes, off topic I know and maybe a stupid question but I gotta ask;
What does feeding alka-seltzer to seagulls do?

Oh and I just wanted to add that such an over-reactive fear is a common sympton of rabies vaccinosis. If you google 'rabies vaccinosis' you may find more info on that. If not I can send some links. 
I see that you've had the dog for most of his life and didn't have this problem until recently after the slipper incident. Have you had your dog vaccinated annually? His previous "not quite right" behavior can be attributed to the same. Maybe something worth checking into. 

Jihad
and the pound puppy crew.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

reynosa_k9's said:


> Yes, off topic I know and maybe a stupid question but I gotta ask;
> What does feeding alka-seltzer to seagulls do?
> 
> Jihad
> and the pound puppy crew.


Tha same as it does when you drop it in a glass of water I'd imagine... Plop plop fizz fizz in a seagull belly. Or maybe just fizz fizz pop!


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

tc.m said:


> again, excellent posts, one and all...
> 
> t
> the slipper episodes were normally just me picking up the slipper from the floor in the living room, shaking it at him and (threateningly) asking him who's slipper it was (_is this your damn slipper? I don't think so! Leave my stuff alone, dammit!_) ...that sort of thing. It certainly did go so far as me popping him on the nose or forehead with the slipper on occasions, by that time I'm sure _both_ of us were really stressed out. I know he was extremely intimidated by the whole thing, but I'm not sure he was making the right connection as to _why_. Eventually, we just removed his access to the bedrooms, etc. so it became a "non-problem".
> ...


Wasn't just once.



TxRider said:


> It happens. A swat with a slipper is not losing control and it's not abuse. The dog connected the swat with being excited when master comes home.


Not sure what you think abuse is then.


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## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

TxRider said:


> .... Or maybe just fizz fizz pop!


 
Thx for the answer. I think I'll just leave the alka-seltzer in the medicine cabinet, thank you very much. .


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> Wasn't just once.
> 
> Not sure what you think abuse is then.


Apparently more than an isolated smack with a slipper an a harsh word or two.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Apparently more than an isolated smack with a slipper an a harsh word or two.


The words episodes and occasions don't seem isolated to me. I guess you think a smack here and there is ok. I see where you are coming from now.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> The words episodes and occasions don't seem isolated to me. I guess you think a smack here and there is ok. I see where you are coming from now.


Sweet merciful crap - are you friggin' serious?


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

A smack on the nose with a slipper is not abuse. Just bad training, and the OP realizes that. I've seen FAR worse. Particularly in that horrible video that was recently posted in the General Dog Forum.

I'm going to agree with just ignoring the dog when you come home and going straight to the back door to let him out. It's might take a very long time for your dog to get over this. Some dogs are like that, so all you can really do is just wait it out if ANY kind of attention sets off the peeing.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Independent George said:


> Sweet merciful crap - are you friggin' serious?


I am, I guess it's ok with you too.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

I don't think it's ok to hit a dog. At least when you spank a child you can explain why...dogs don't understand that kind of thing.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Cheetah



> A smack on the nose with a slipper is not abuse. Just bad training, and the OP realizes that. I've seen FAR worse. Particularly in that horrible video that was recently posted in the General Dog Forum.


Now you've gone and done it, adding common sense to the thread.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

How many times is bad? Three times, four? Is there a magic number that crosses the line? Slipper is ok but maybe not a stick? 

Just curious because I'm really surprised at the laissez faire attitude on hitting a dog.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> How many times is bad? Three times, four? Is there a magic number that crosses the line? Slipper is ok but maybe not a stick?
> 
> Just curious because I'm really surprised at the laissez faire attitude on hitting a dog.


I've lost my cool and hit my dogs before. Not really hard and they're labs and can take just about anything......just out of frustration. But when it becomes a habit, or if the person views it as "okay"...then there is a problem.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I never said I was ok with it, just that it's not abuse (I've worked in the shelter and seen REAL abuse, and even witnessed it as a kid when it was done to my own dogs). I also never said it was effective at all. It's not something *I* would do, and the OP has said they realize it's wrong and they have come on here asking for alternatives so their dog doesn't have to be scared of them anymore. I think we should stop beating the horse as it died around the middle of yesterday.

I'll stand by my previous post. Just ignore the dog, don't go near him, don't look or talk to him, go straight to the back door. Keep the routine the same. Maybe if the dog is able to keep from submissive peeing after going potty, you can give him a yummy high-value treat, like pieces of hot dog while you are talking to him and add that into the daily routine.

And I also agree with either confining him or putting your things out of his reach so he doesn't have a chance to get in trouble again if this is still a problem.


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## Cobalt (Jul 27, 2007)

Almighty then... I skimmed through most of the replies here so I hope I am not repeating.

Some dogs just pee when excited. This could have nothing to do with anything that has happened or not happened. I had a dog (cocker spaniel, big surprise there) that did this. Just keep ignoring when you get home and watch your shoes! They truly don't know they are peeing when they do it. 

Good luck and peace


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