# Balancing drive and control....



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Particularly in agility but would love to hear other thoughts too.

Transitioning from a Summer to a Mia is a little difficult for me. Mia has turned into by far the fastest, most drivey dog in her class despite being by far the smallest. We're dealing with things that I haven't dealt with with Summer (who is by no means slow) nor any of the other dogs in class are dealing with. 

We're still not doing full courses with mia but are getting to the point where we're stringing together a dozen or so obstacles and running them. When I run Summer, I tend to set her up in a sit and walk out a few obstacles before releasing her and directing her over the obstacles. The other dog owners do the same with their dogs. Walk them up, tell them to sit, walk out, then release. With Mia, this is just not working well. If I do this, the second we're nearish an obstacle, she's gone. So I decided tonight to try carrying her to the starting line and physically putting her where I want her and making her sit. This gets her to sit okay but she tenses up. If I start walking towards the objects I get creeper dog. It's like a compulsion... if she sees the object, she MUST go do it. So many starts today I'd have Mia set up and then either she'd just explode out of her stay and run up the a-frame or her butt would slowly get off the ground and she'd tense and move forward every time she thought I was about to release her. In other words.. stays have not been good. So then I tried just releasing her from standing next to her. That doesn't work either because then I release her and she's waaaaay past me in a flash and moving on to obstacles I don't want her to do lol (Or running circles around me saying 'ya coming mom?' Or back and forth up and down the a-frame while i catch up).

I just feel like it takes me so long to get a good start with her and I'm also worried that constantly starting and stopping and correcting her by putting her back in the sit might hurt her speed and drive (which I DON'T want to do). So lately I've been taking it by just walking up and not sitting her at all. Just kind of walk up then start going immediately with no waiting around. Once she gets going she doesn't miss obstacles or fly off course much, it's just the beginning when she tries doing her own thing. I am kind of worried about the walk up and just go method because eventually I want to trial her and I'll absolutely need her to hold her starting position.

She just gets so amped up about agility and knows what she's going to do and doesn't seem to understand the point of waiting to do it.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

OK so I'm still definitely a dog sports/agility n00b, but I have been having a similar issue with Kimma. Like Mia, once Kimma gets going, she's fine. She just jumps the gun a bit, leaving me in the dust and unable to direct her to the next set of obstacles. And she definitely knows what to do on each individual obstacle (though we're not stringing together as many as you are yet and we are not doing weaves or tables). I have noticed that it seems to happen a bit more with Kimma towards the end of class, when I'm pretty sure her attention span is waning (not sure if that's the same with Mia). So what I have been doing is doing sits/waits in front of one obstacle over and over (like a jump) a few times, rewarding that, then moving to two, then three, etc. 

It's sort of like going back to basics a bit, but it actually seemed to help Kimma. Two weeks ago, she just would not string two jumps together. We were doing them a bit further apart than we were used to (more like if they were in a course, I suppose), and she kept going around them to get to me, LOL. So we did one jump at a time, then two, then we stopped on a good note. And of course today at class, she was able to do 3 jumps then a tunnel just fine, hahaha. Granted, she did it once then wouldn't do it again (this was literally in the last 5 minutes of an hour class), but it was still a huge improvement from a couple weeks ago!

I hope that you find something that works really soon! Mia seems to have such an incredible drive, and it must be so awesome to see her harness that!


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## And (Apr 5, 2010)

When I first started training Belle about a year and a half ago I tried to do a sit/stay. It worked about 30-40% of the time, and the other time she would break the sit. I did notice that she had a very nice stay, and seemed to pay more attention if I didn't make her sit. So, I have changed her start-line to be a stand and stay. It has really made a difference for Belle and I. Have you tried a stand/stay position?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Stand/stay is what works for Marge, too.

I would be practicing start lines with single obstacles first (if you have access to a single jump without the other exciting equipment around, that'd be good) in a lower-excitement environment. But now is definitely the time to figure out if you want to maintain a start line stay or do a running start with her.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Sorry, this is probably a stupid question (and I'm totally not trying to thread hijack!), but are you allowed to do a stand/stay at the start for every venue? (Like for USDAA and AKC, etc.) Because I think that would work better for Kimma, too!


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

We do a stand and wait and I rarely lead out with Cherokee. He needs me near him at the start line to keep his focus. Once we get moving, he forgets what else is going on in the room and as long as I don't confuse him, he stays focused. In NADAC it doesn't matter how you start. The clock starts when you go over the first obstacle.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Finkie_Mom said:


> Sorry, this is probably a stupid question (and I'm totally not trying to thread hijack!), but are you allowed to do a stand/stay at the start for every venue? (Like for USDAA and AKC, etc.) Because I think that would work better for Kimma, too!


Yes. You can do whatever you want at the start line in any venue (sit stay, down stay, stand stay, running start, etc.)


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

When I first started with Remmy, I did a running start. The few times I tried a Sit-Stay and took a lead off, he seemed to think he should stay and wouldn't move. This year I have done a combination, sometimes I have him sit stay, especially for the first few classes while he is keen. When he starts to hesitate about leaving the stay, I change to the running start. I am going to work on the sit-stay next year as he is getting so much faster, and gets too far ahead of me.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Kyllobernese said:


> When I first started with Remmy, I did a running start. The few times I tried a Sit-Stay and took a lead off, he seemed to think he should stay and wouldn't move. This year I have done a combination, sometimes I have him sit stay, especially for the first few classes while he is keen. When he starts to hesitate about leaving the stay, I change to the running start. I am going to work on the sit-stay next year as he is getting so much faster, and gets too far ahead of me.


I do a startline stay, because with a fast dog it's easier for me to do a lead out in some cases. I have to make sure to say "wait" instead of "stay", because (to Tag) "wait" means "get ready because I'm going to ask you to do something", and "stay" means "do NOT move until I come back to you and release you". So if I tell Tag to stay and then cue him for the first obstacle, I'm not only confusing him but screwing up "stay" work I've done since day one. 
For me, startline stays weren't much of an issue. But the few times he did take off before I cued it, we went back and sat down. No stay? No play.
I don't think self control damages drive or focus unless you hammer it into them


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I do a sit stay with Lloyd. I started with one obstacle (a jump) and also had a bumper in front of him to help remind him to stay. Clean run had a good article on start line stays awhile back, I will see if I can find it tomorrow.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Hmmm I guess I don't really know what would help us more, hahaha. Kimma does get ahead of me very quickly (she's too fast, LOL), so maybe a sit/wait would be better after all... Who knows. I suppose that practice/more experience will tell LOL. But it's definitely good to know that I have the option to do whatever!


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## dobedvm (Nov 1, 2010)

i think if your dog has enough drive and enough want to for the sport, then i would absolutely demand that the dog do a SLS - if it cant happen in training, its only going to get worse when shown. these are the hectic starts with dogs going off course because the handler cant get in front of them - taking down bars, etc. 

personally for me, a stay is a non-negotiable aspect of agility. berlins broken a few, but for the most part she's good (knock on wood). a dog that has true drive and desire to play the game itself isn't going to lose anything by insisting that they do a sit stay. this weekend i saw so many dogs that were out of control at the start line - it only got worse throughout the course.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Lazy Ranch, thanks, I never thought about it probably being why he thinks he should stay. I will work on "wait" when I start back in the spring and see if it makes a difference. I will start working on the "wait" over the winter but can't do any Agility till spring.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Kyllobernese said:


> Lazy Ranch, thanks, I never thought about it probably being why he thinks he should stay. I will work on "wait" when I start back in the spring and see if it makes a difference. I will start working on the "wait" over the winter but can't do any Agility till spring.


It all depends on how you've taught stay and wait though. If I used them interchangably, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference  I did a lot of reading before I started any of that stuff so I didn't confuse him. Beforehand, stay meant "stay right there in that position" and wait meant "hang in this general area". Now it's more cut and dry. 
I practice flatwork in my living room. I hope no one is ever looking in my window, I look like a clown...(moreso than normal, lol).



dobedvm said:


> i think if your dog has enough drive and enough want to for the sport, then i would absolutely demand that the dog do a SLS - if it cant happen in training, its only going to get worse when shown. these are the hectic starts with dogs going off course because the handler cant get in front of them - taking down bars, etc.
> 
> *personally for me, a stay is a non-negotiable aspect of agility*. berlins broken a few, but for the most part she's good (knock on wood). a dog that has true drive and desire to play the game itself isn't going to lose anything by insisting that they do a sit stay. this weekend i saw so many dogs that were out of control at the start line - it only got worse throughout the course.


Stay is non-negotiable in agility for us, too, as well as real life. I almost think (in a way) doing a SLS has improved Tags desire to play the game. It's like the anticipation is half the fun, kwim? A SLS also helped him learn how to find the line in angled jumps. Instead of just running like a bat outta hell, he takes his stay time to mentally prepare himself for the quickest way from A to B, in the shortest time possible. If the second jump is at an angle, the SLS in front of the first jump is at an angle to form that straight line to jump #2 (very nice on lead outs!) It gives him something to think about.
I don't know if it has any meaning with a SLS, but Tag rarely drops bars.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

It's a training issue, because even dogs with lower drive can have bad start line stays, that said it can be more difficult with a high drive dog. But it is still a training issue. Garrett has a saying, 'dogs shouldn't move one foot unless released and that is one paw not the measurment.'
There are exercises that can be done and with a very high rate of reinforcement, build the stay and build value for the equipment, regardless of whether you are 10 inches away from her or 50 ft. If done properly it will not demotivate her and if done properly it actually builds drive and control.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

LynnI said:


> It's a training issue, because even dogs with lower drive can have bad start line stays, that said it can be more difficult with a high drive dog. But it is still a training issue. Garrett has a saying, 'dogs shouldn't move one foot unless released and that is one paw not the measurment.'
> There are exercises that can be done and with a very high rate of reinforcement, build the stay and build value for the equipment, regardless of whether you are 10 inches away from her or 50 ft. *If done properly it will not demotivate her and if done properly it actually builds drive and control*.


Wow, are you saying I actually did something right?


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Wow, are you saying I actually did something right?


Of course


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