# Large Breed Puppy food Protein levels??



## MartinCarson (Jul 11, 2007)

Before I came to realize the truth about dog food I bought Science diet puppy for my Shepherd Lab mix, but I am looking to switch to a better food now. 
I was all set to get Chicken soup for the pet lover's soul Large breed puppy, but when I finally got a hold of a pet store that carries it he advised me that the protein levels 28% were too low for a large breed dog.
I got this link http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#commercial which has some info on protein levels and bone/growth problems.
My second choice is Orijen large puppy with a protein level of 42% !! Can anyone shed some light as too how much protein he should be getting. It is a little more expensive so thats why it's number 2, but I am happy to get it if it is better for him.
He is currently 3 months, approx 22 lbs Shepherd/Lab mix
Thanks a lot


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

It seems that no one can come to an agreement on protein levels in the dog food world. Some say lower is better, some say higher is better. I think higher protein is more natural...I don't know about "better," though. Some also say that large breed puppies should not eat high protein diets do to growth issues. Well, then, why would Orijen have a "large breed puppy" line? I feed Orijen and I LOVE it...and so do my dogs  It's a personal choice that you'll have to make. Also, I can almost 100% guarantee you that your vet will tell you that Orijen is too high protein. Most vets still sell food that have tons of fillers and/or preservatives as these are the foods that are "accepted" and "known" to most people. I have heard nothing but good things about Orijen and so far I've experienced nothing but good things while feeding it. 

Good luck!


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

> Can anyone shed some light as too how much protein he should be getting.


You want to look at where the protein is coming from, you can have the protein come from plant based or animal based. Plant based protein well only give your dog a little of the amino acids that your dog needs while animal based protein will give your dog all the amino acids that your dog needs to stay health. Plant based protein which is called nonessential amino acids do not contain arginine, taurine, methionine, lysine and tryptophan. Dogs need about ten amino acids to stay healthy which are histidine, isoleucine, leucine, arginine, methionine, phenylalanine, threonine, tryptophan, valine and lysine. 28% of protein is fine that is depending on where the protein is coming from.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I had Riley on Innova Large Breed Puppy food until he was ten months old. (75% raw and 25% kibble). For large breed dogs you need to also look at the calcium level of the food and be sure it is not too high as that can cause bone growth too quickly. I believe large breed puppy foods take, or should take that into account so I would check the calcium levels as well. Now I am doing about 95% raw (I give some kibble in the afternoon which is really his "treat" for the day and I have switched to Timberwolf Organics lamb and apples)


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## TearahBey77 (Jul 18, 2007)

I was advised to choose a lower protian food for my St/Boxer. He is going to be huge! lol
Anywho, I chose Solid gold-Wolf King Adult bc the protien level is like 21or22%.


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## MartinCarson (Jul 11, 2007)

Here are the stats on the different foods:
Chicken Soup: http://www.chickensoupforthepetloverssoul.com/products/dogs/dry_food/large_breed_puppy_formula/
Crude Protein 27.0% Minimum
Crude Fat 13.0% Minimum
Crude Fiber 3.0% Maximum
Moisture 10.0% Maximum
Calcium 1.2% Minimum
Phosphorus 1.0% Minimum

Orijen: http://www.championpetfoods.com/orijen/products/puppyLargeAnalysis.aspx
Protein (min.) 42.0%
Fat 16.0%
Carbohydrate 18.0%
Moisture 10.0%
Fiber 2.0%
Calcium (min.) 1.4%
Calcium (max.) 1.6%
Phosphorus (min.) 1.1%
Phosphorus (max.) 1.3%
CALORIE CONTENT & DISTRIBUTION - 4200 kcal/kg (483 kcal per 250ml cup) with 50% of energy derived from protein, 20% derived from fruit & vegetables and 30% from fat.

The huge difference of 42% and 27% has me worried that they will have drastically different effect on the future outcome, and I have no idea what to do.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Here is the skinny on Innova Large breed puppy formula: www.naturapet.com

Nutritional Facts
Moisture 6.34 % 
Protein 27.3 % 
Fat 14.9 % 
Linoleic Acid 2.46 % 
Omega 3 0.31 % 
Arachidonic Acid 0.06 % 
Carbohydrates 48.63 % 
Fiber 2.1 % 
Ash 4.75 % 
Calcium 0.94 % 
Phosphorous 0.79 % 
Magnesium 0.11 % 
Sodium 0.2 % 
Potassium 0.64 % 
Chloride 0.22 % 
Iron 246 mg/kg 
Zinc 255 mg/kg 
Copper 21 mg/kg 
Iodine 2.4 mg/kg 
Manganese 36 mg/kg 
Selenium 0.36 mg/kg 
Arginine 1.74 % 
Histidine 0.41 % 
Isoleucine 0.79 % 
Leucine 1.27 % 
Lysine 1.47 % 
Methionine 0.52 % 
Met-Cysteine 0.79 % 
Phenylalanine 0.96 % 
Phe-Tyrosine 1.66 % 
Threonine 0.89 % 
Tryptophan 0.21 % 
Valine 1.05 % 
Taurine 1000 mg/kg 
Choline 1896 mg/kg 
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) 4.86 mg/kg 
Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) 5.43 mg/kg 
Vitamin B3 (Niacin) 43.99 mg/kg 
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) 3.8 mg/kg 
Folic Acid 7.78 mg/kg 
Vitamin B5 (Pantothenic Acid) 18.23 mg/kg 
Biotin 0.97 mg/kg 
Vitamin B12 (Cyanocobalamin) 850 ug/kg 
Vitamin A 20047 IU/kg 
Vitamin C 526 mg/kg 
Vitamin D 1990 IU/kg 
Vitamin E 350 IU/kg 
Vitamin K 288 ug/kg 
ME 3768 kcal/kg 
ME 366 kcal/cup


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

Something to read http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/protein.html


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## MartinCarson (Jul 11, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> I had Riley on Innova Large Breed Puppy food until he was ten months old.


What breed is Riley?


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

MartinCarson said:


> What breed is Riley?


Riley is a standard poodle, about 56 pounds now (13 months old)


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## MartinCarson (Jul 11, 2007)

From what I understand the amount of protein seems to have proven to not be a large factor in the healthy growth of a large breed pup, but what im more concerned about now is the Calcium/Phosphorus levels.
This info http://www.iams.com/es_US/data_root/breeder_section/GrowingPains.pdf Indicates that their study found the ideal diet to be 0.8 calcium and 0.67 Phosphorus. (study conducted my the Iams corp) 
I noted that the Innova had .94 Cal/.79 Phos.
Orijen has 1.4-1.6Cal/1.1-1.3 Phos
This seems like a small difference since they are small numbers but it is nearly 50% more, does anyone know if this is a considerable difference and should be considered too high a level?


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

http://www.newmanveterinary.com/large.html

I would go for the lower calcium levels if your pup is under a year old----


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## MartinCarson (Jul 11, 2007)

Thanks for the info, I wish that there was an official site that provided this sort of information, because anyone with an internet connection and notepad can make a website stating the facts as they perceive them.
I am greatfull for the links but everyone has a different opinion on the matter and I wish that I could find some scientific - proven/published - facts.
The Innova seems like a good choice, better to err on the side of caution as far the the Calcium levels go and the energy provided is drastically different and all I need is my crazy pup having more of it!! 
Orijen 483 kcal per 250ml
Innova 366 kcal per 250ml

Thanks all!


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I don't have any experience with large breed dogs. However I have tons of experience with published journal studies.

1) Look for how many dogs were in the study and the length of time. If they only looked at 10 dogs for 12 weeks, pretty weak. If they looked at 100 dogs, preferably various breeds, for 6-12 months, much better.

2) Look to see who sponsored the study. Food manufacturers are in the business of making money. Studies done at universities are better, but look all the way at the top or bottom for disclaimers where the primary participants (human investigators) reveal who they have accepted money from in the past or present. Too many industry ties is bad.

3) Look to see how the study was set up. Was there a control group? Were the dogs given a period of all being on the same food for a few weeks before the study so they were all coming from the same nutritional status when the study food was begun? 

4) What were the investigators looking for? What was the question they were trying to answer?


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## Mcpie (Jun 22, 2007)

> I wish that there was an official site that provided this sort of information, because anyone with an internet connection and notepad can make a website stating the facts as they perceive them.


That really is the issue at hand-- there isn't a consensus so you're going to have to read until you feel comfortable, then make a choice. I personally have my puppy on Orijen Large Breed, and he's doing great on it/I think it's a fantastic food. In the end, do what you think is best given the information at hand, and, at least in my mind, there is no argument to sway me away from Orijen at present, and plenty of positives to encourage me to stay.


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## MartinCarson (Jul 11, 2007)

I sent an email to Orijen asking if they had any information to help me make the decision as to if their Calciem levels are low enough for my pup. I got his email:


> Hello Martin, and thanks for your enquiry.
> 
> There certainly is a good deal of disagreement over the appropriate calcium and phosphorus levels for large breeds. And one of the challenges presented by a high-protein diet is maintaining reasonable calcium and phosphorus levels (most high-protein diets exceed 12% in ash, and 2.5-3% calcium). We formulate with specially prepared low-ash chicken meal to bring the ORIJEN calcium and phosphorus levels down to where they are considered safe for giant breeds (your dog is a large breed, but not a giant breed like a Dane, for example).
> 
> ...


No exactly as convincing as I was hoping for, but I suppose it is something. Orijen is a great food and I think I will be feeding him it.
Thanks everyone for the input.


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## EXBCMC (Jul 7, 2007)

i don't recall where i read this, either in labs for dummies or another puppy book. but they said the new theory for large breed dogs is to not feed them puppy food, or, if you do be sure to use large breed style. theory is, the puppy food makes them grow too fast, which could lead to the joint problems. anyone else ?


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## Mcpie (Jun 22, 2007)

> No exactly as convincing as I was hoping for, but I suppose it is something. Orijen is a great food and I think I will be feeding him it.
> Thanks everyone for the input.


It's not convincing because there is so much debate  In fact, I take their response-- which leaves themselves open to other arguments, as one of the many reasons why I think their food is so great. In the end, they seem genuinely concerned about dogs and making the best food possible, by keeping an open mind to the research out there and not becoming heavy handed with their answers, I think they demonstrate that fact quite well.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Well, I can tell you what I was told by a vet (now, I always take nutritional advice from vets with a grain of salt or five): 

Any dog that has the potential to grow over 50 lbs should be fed an all life stages formula that is also hypoallergenic and contains probiotics when they are a puppy. 

With that being said, I would steer clear of Innova (although I do love Innova for cats and kittens). 

Fromm's Four Star Nutritionals Duck and Sweet Potato is a great food for large breed puppies. Then again, I'm biased because Orchid has done so well on Fromm's.


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