# Aggressive Biting



## kmurto (Sep 22, 2011)

I have a 3 year old Pit/Lab mix my husband and I got from our local animal shelter two years ago. His name is Remey and I love him dearly.

We know that he was abused as a puppy. When we got him he was extremely fearful of new people, new situations, etc. He would try and get away from people and would sometimes nip in fear. We just told people what was going on with him, to be patient and let him come to you. Over time his confidence grew and he learned to love people, especially my husband and I.

About 6 months ago, the biting started getting more serious. We brought him to the dog park one day and as another owner was going to grab their dog, Remey bit him on the leg, tearing his jeans up and breaking the skin. The owner stated it was his fault for scaring Remey. My husband and I were terrified.

A few months later, he bit a friend of our's daughter who was playing with our other dog. It did not break skin, but left a serious bruise. It certainly wasn't a play bite. About a month later he did this to another friend of ours, biting him on the thigh hard. Then he did then again to a random person at the lake. 

I should have taken him to a behavioralist then. I just didn't see it. 

As the biting has increased, so has his protectiveness of my husband and I and our home. He has always barked, but when people came to say hello to him at the fence he was always polite, wagging his tail and letting people pet him. This friendly behavior stopped and he wouldn't let people near the fence. 

About a week ago he got out of our fence. Do note that we have a fully fence in yard, have staked the fence down, laid railroad ties along the bottom and even dug down and put chicken wire underground to try and prevent this. He kept near our fence, but when my neighbor tried to go out into the alley to put him back in for us, Remey lunged at him. The dog wouldn't let him out of his own yard and he stated that he was very worried that the dog was going to bite him.

The next day, some kids walked by our fence and taunted the dogs. A neighbor shooed them away for us. A few minutes later, a little girl walked by the fence. For no apparent reason, Remey lunged at the fence, pulling himself through the bottom of the chain link fence (yes, the one that had railroad ties in the way and had been staked down). He would have had to really work at it to get himself out. He bit her twice, the one on the arm being pretty serious. She had to go to the emergency room and get stitches. The cops were called and a report was filed against the dog. I'm quite sure we are going to be paying out a chunk of change to these people, I'm just hoping we don't get sued.

If it happens again, the dog will be taken away from us, we will be sued, lose our insurance and pay major fines. 

I love this dog more than anything. My husband and I took him every where with us. He went to parades, on car trips, the dog park, our neighborhood park, etc, etc. We really worked to socialize him and get him used to new people, dogs, situations, etc. We did not take him to a trainer, but we did spend quite a bit of time training him. He comes when called, knows basic commands, is a perfect gentleman inside the house, walks nicely on a leash, plays well with other dogs.... I'm not sure if it is bad breeding, his abusive past, something we did wrong... I feel so guilty.

Any way I look at this, I can't see what he did to that little girl as anything but vicious. And that is hard for me to say as I love that dog so much. My husband and I have decided to bring him home once he is done with quarantine and to love him up as much as we possibly can. Then we are going to have the dog put to sleep.

I feel so alone and like such a failure. I just don't know what to do. The thought of putting him down makes me sick to my stomach. But what else am I to do??


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## MissBodhi (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles with your dog, and of the little girl who was bitten. I can relate to your situation, and let me say from experience, if the animal has attacked this much he WILL do it again. (Next time, it could be substantially worse - I'll explain later about what happened with my wolf/husky hybrid.) I understand that you love your animal, and he loves you, but we have to accept the reality of the breed we're housing. Pits are known to be aggressive - and it looks like he will either need to be taken to a shelter, rehabilitational facility for that particular breed, or put to sleep.

I had a wolf/husky hybrid some years ago. With me, she was always loving & tender, and I loved her also. I hoped that her husky genes would be more dominant, but she ended up 100% wolf-like. The signs started early, and I too ignored them. She'd climb fences like a cat, she'd chew the fuse box to the electrical fence & escape on a daily basis. I couldn't handle the complaints from neighbors about her killing smaller pets, chickens, etc so I gave her to my brother (who lived in the country with lots of land to roam). I should've given her to a shelter, but I was overly optimistic about her being a domestic animal. Anyway, long story short she ended up biting through an unattended toddlers soiled diaper rupturing his anus & testicles. At that point it was too late, and we had to put her down. 

I know it's hard - but you're doing the right thing and you're not alone. Best wishes to your family and your dog!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

OP, we can't offer you much advice other than if you want to try and put A LOT of work into this dog, you need to get a veterinary behaviorist now, so that aggression on a medical front can be ruled out and he can be worked with with a professional. You need to absolutely contain him. He does not belong in the dog park and if he can escape your yard he must never be let out there unattended. In order to be worked with he must never be given the opportunity to bite. You're also not alone. I have a reformed fear biter, a dog that is aggressive only towards children, and a severe resource guarder that has bitten both my boyfriend and I.



MissBodhi said:


> Pits are known to be aggressive - and it looks like he will either need to be taken to a shelter, rehabilitational facility for that particular breed, or put to sleep.


No, they're not. Especially not towards people. And no, a shelter will not take him. Probably immediately to euthanize, but why not do that in a loving him rather than ditching him to be PTS at the shelter? And no, dogs that bite don't have to continue biting. I have three and they will never bite another person again because we work every day to manage them.


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## MissBodhi (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm not anti-pitbull by any means; my father has a few of them and they are all great companions. But yes, pit-bulls ARE known to be potentially agressive breeds and to deny that is ludicrous. However the situation is best handled for her family is not my business; I'm merely sharing my experience with not taking an animal to a professional once these behaviors start.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissBodhi said:


> I'm not anti-pitbull by any means; my father has a few of them and they are all great companions. But yes, pit-bulls ARE known to be potentially agressive breeds and to deny that is ludicrous. However the situation is best handled for her family is not my business; I'm merely sharing my experience with not taking an animal to a professional once these behaviors start.


No, they're not, and to think they are is ludicrous. Might want to read up on the breed before putting it out there on a public forum. The ONLY aggression to be concerned with inherently because of the breed is dog aggression, not human.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

MissBodhi said:


> , etc so I gave her to my brother (who lived in the country with lots of land to roam). I should've given her to a shelter, but I was overly optimistic about her being a domestic animal. Anyway, long story short she ended up biting through an unattended toddlers soiled diaper rupturing his anus & testicles. At that point it was too late, and we had to put her down.
> 
> I know it's hard - but you're doing the right thing and you're not alone. Best wishes to your family and your dog!


If you have a dangerous dog who is a liability, the thing to do is not to give that dog away, or (worse) relinquish the dog to a shelter. A new owner is not going to have as much influence or be as committed to the dog as you are. A shelter will (if they know the details) probably choose to euthanize the dog immediately, or worse, if they don't know why the dog is being reliquished, possibly adopt the dog to a well intentioned family looking for a good pet. And the results will be tragic. If you have a truly dangerous dog, and do not feel that you can keep that dog safe and people safe from that dog, the most humane thing you can do for the dog is allow him to die peacefully at the vets, surrounded by people who love him, rather than to abandon him to die with strangers.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MissBodhi said:


> but we have to accept the reality of the breed we're housing. Pits are known to be aggressive - and it looks like he will either need to be taken to a shelter, rehabilitational facility for that particular breed, or put to sleep.
> 
> I had a wolf/husky hybrid some years ago. )


Please don't buy into the hype..... Pit Bulls are not known to be aggressive. The breed was known as the "Nanny Dog" for many years in this country. This is because of their gentle disposition and reliability. None of this pit nonsense reared its ugly head until the 1987 Sports Illustrated article. I seriously wish folks would quit being led by media hype. 
Your wolf hybrid is not comparable. Wolves are wild animals......



To the OP.... You cannot get great advice online of how to deal with your dog. You need a good behaviorist. Not a trainer.... But someone that is capable of disecting what is going on. Can't be done online. Too many variables. You might not be seeing an important part of what is triggering this behavior. Until then..... You NEED to be very careful with this dog. Contain him and do not allow any strangers or children around the dog....

Euthanasia may be the outcome, but I would certainly try to have someone with the knowledge and experience have a look before you go that route.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> If you have a dangerous dog who is a liability, the thing to do is not to give that dog away, or (worse) relinquish the dog to a shelter. A new owner is not going to have as much influence or be as committed to the dog as you are. A shelter will (if they know the details) probably choose to euthanize the dog immediately, or worse, if they don't know why the doig is being reliquished, possibly adopt the dog to a well intentioned family looking for a good pet. And the results will be tragic. If you have a truly dangerous dog, and do not feel that you can keep that dog safe and people safe from that dog, the most humane thing you can do for the dog is allow him to die peacefully at the vets, surrounded by people who love him, rather than to abandon him to die with strangers.



Good points here Paws.... If you do have to Euthanize the dog, do not take him to a shelter. And please do not pass him along..... Laws vary by state but in some states if you re home a dog with a bite history (yours has a history whether it was reported to the authorities or not) you can be held liable if an incident happens with a future owner.


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## MissBodhi (Sep 1, 2011)

www.dogbitelaw.com said:


> "In recent years, the dogs responsible for the bulk of the homicides are pit bulls and Rottweilers...(cont'd)
> 
> The Clifton study of attacks from 1982 through 2006 produced similar results. According to Clifton study, pit bulls, Rottweilers, Presa Canarios and their mixes were responsible for 65% of the canine homicides that occurred during a period of 24 years in the USA. (Clifton, Dog attack deaths and maimings, U.S. & Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006; click here to read it.)"


http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/the-breeds-most-likely-to-kill.html


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissBodhi said:


> http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/the-breeds-most-likely-to-kill.html


Website is a load of garbage, FYI. Also, the CDC recorded the number of dog bite fatalities from 1979-1998, 20 years, at 327. That's roughly 16 deaths a year. Even if that silly statistic that 65% of the deaths were Pits, Rotts, and Presas (all DIFFERENT BREEDS not just Pits that you think are so dangerous) that would leave those THREE breeds responsible for roughly 10, so a whole 3 deaths a piece? But since that statistic is silly that is a moot point.

While I'm at it: http://badrap.org/rescue/index.html


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## MissBodhi (Sep 1, 2011)

You're using two different statistics to create a *moot* point, actually. And I don't think PitBulls are "so dangerous" they are great animals. I appreciate the link, though.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MissBodhi said:


> http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/the-breeds-most-likely-to-kill.html


Meritt Clifton is a member and leader of a radical animal rights organization with an agenda to end pet ownership. His "study" which is not a study but merely a compilation of media reports has been discredited. Other than a tool to drum up business for a few law firms that prey on sensationalism to drum up business, it has been discredited and is no longer used. 

Is is nothing more than a listing of newspaper articles. The media is not about facts or truth. But rather selling newspapers. Commonly the "breed' of dog is changed and or listed as "pit bull" to create an article of wide interest. The public loves monsters. So the media gives them what they want. An example of this was the child that was recently killed in Texas. Outside of Houston. The Sheriffs Department originally listed the dog involved in the death as a Lab Mix of over 100 pounds. The first newpaper report read that way and was only picked up by a few other media sources. Thirty six hours later, a news report, reported the dog involved was a pit bull and the article was picked up on the Associated press by over a hundred other news outlets. Subsequent articles followed suit and were also picked up widely. 

The above reference is common and has been going on for years. Unfortunately the public is blindly led by such mis information. ( you included) Next time please educate yourself before placing labels. 

In the media and subsequently the masses, the term "pit bull" is the same as terrorist, assualt rifle, and many other phrases that are over used simply to create sensationalism, create emotion and most importantly sell newspapers and advertising.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I'm interested in your yard and all the fence with railroad ties etc installed (which is a lot of work) shows responsibility on your part. Then the kids teasing of the dog. Then the amount of time dog spends outside in yard unattended. I'm not going to get into protection work, but long story short aggression is built by some teasing of dog. It's not called teasing but is similar to what kids running back and forth in front of a fenced in dog builds up (frustration etc) in the dog


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

MissBodhi said:


> . Pits are known to be aggressive.


A. No, they're not. 
B. The OP stated that the dog is a pitXlab. How do you know that the pit in the dog is responsible for aggression and not the lab? You don't. There's no test for that and it's pointless to try blame a particular breed in a mutt. A mutt that bites is a mutt that bites.



> I had a wolf/husky hybrid some years ago. With me, she was always loving & tender, and I loved her also. I hoped that her husky genes would be more dominant, but she ended up 100% wolf-like. The signs started early, and I too ignored them. She'd climb fences like a cat, she'd chew the fuse box to the electrical fence & escape on a daily basis. I couldn't handle the complaints from neighbors about her killing smaller pets, chickens, etc so I gave her to my brother (who lived in the country with lots of land to roam). I should've given her to a shelter, but I was overly optimistic about her being a domestic animal. Anyway, long story short she ended up biting through an unattended toddlers soiled diaper rupturing his anus & testicles. At that point it was too late, and we had to put her down.


All of the things you listed are traits you might find in a husky.

And no, you should not unload your dangerous dog on the poor shelter staff that already have to euth god knows how many animals. I'm sure that's a real treat to them.


To the OP-
I'm sorry that you're going through this. Emotional and stressful is an understatement.
You've already been given great advice on veterinary behaviorists and behaviorists.
But you need to manage the problem. That means that your dog is never ever outside alone. If it were me, I'd be taking him out on leash to potty in the yard.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

MissBodhi said:


> http://dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/the-breeds-most-likely-to-kill.html


Umn. Okay. A lawyer who doesn't know that the definition of homicide is one human killing another human? He must have majored in ambulance chasing. He certainly didn't major in statistics or he'd know that in order to have a meaningful statistic you need to have a sample number sufficient to draw a conclusion.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Meritt Clifton is a member and leader of a radical animal rights organization with an agenda to end pet ownership. His "study" which is not a study but merely a compilation of media reports has been discredited. Other than a tool to drum up business for a few law firms that prey on sensationalism to drum up business, it has been discredited and is no longer used.
> .


Ah. That makes sense (still trying to figure out exactly what a "canine homicide" would be.)


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

vnairp11 said:


> Spend a lot of time with the dog, have treats in your hand when you go to dog parks. Correct the behavior on leash and right after any signs of aggression, treat her when good behavior is expressed.


You don't take a dog who has bitten a number of people to the dog park. You do one of two things. Consult a really good, credentialed behaviorist (some people call themselves behaviorists without having professional training/credentials, so that's important) or you euthanize the dog. And leash popping a dog for aggression is one of the stupider things you can do.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

vnairp11 said:


> Spend a lot of time with the dog, have treats in your hand when you go to dog parks. Correct the behavior on leash and right after any signs of aggression, treat her when good behavior is expressed.


There are so many things wrong with this post that I don't even know where to begin.

The OP's dog sent a little girl to the hospital. Pretty sure that calls for a professional...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissBodhi said:


> You're using two different statistics to create a *moot* point, actually. And I don't think PitBulls are "so dangerous" they are great animals. I appreciate the link, though.


Oh no, I made a 3 AM typo that you managed to catch it and spell it right for me in bold. I am just so embarrassed. I bow down to your argument that is baseless, stupid, and holds absolutely no merit. You can't even spell Pit Bull but you want to point out that? I see now that several other people have told you you're wrong (you are, you know, in case you haven't realized it) you've scurried away.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> You don't take a dog who has bitten a number of people to the dog park. You do one of two things. Consult a really good, credentialed behaviorist (some people call themselves behaviorists without having professional training/credentials, so that's important) or you euthanize the dog. And leash popping a dog for aggression is one of the stupider things you can do.


Well what do you know, I can just see the aggressive dog in park and handful of treats for OP's dog and any other loose dog in park that happens to smell the treats. My doG you could sell tickets to all the sadists in the area who enjoy the sight of blood and people screaming. You're just a spoilsport.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

MissBodhi said:


> Pits are known to be aggressive - and it looks like he will either need to be taken to a shelter, rehabilitational facility for that particular breed, or put to sleep.


Pit Bulls are sensationalized in the media, but are not naturally aggressive dogs. They are very strong, but have an exceptionally mild temperament, unless abused (same for any dog). In fact, before the media hate craze started, Pit Bulls were considered a very good family dog, especially in regards to children. Bite statistics can't be trusted to compare Pit Bulls to other breeds, either, because so many breeds and mixes resemble Pit Bulls. In many cases, a dog attacked and ran off, and the report is a 'best guess' as to breed. 

Another interested bit about Pit Bulls - even after being abused, Pit Bulls show an impressive ability to rehabilitate and trust humans again. I've never had a Pit Bull, but I've been around them frequently, and would recommend snatching up a rescue if possible. A very sad statistic I read states that approximately 20,000 Pit Bulls/mixes are put to death each year. They are in dire need of loving homes.

I'm guessing that the core of your issue is some kind of trauma that set up a trigger. Even more so than humans, dogs are creatures of habit. Once a pattern is deeply established, it becomes difficult to dislodge. This is good and bad, because bad habits can be stubborn to remove, but good habits tend to stay. I would definitely seek a dog behavioralist to try to determine the cause of your dog's biting. I'm guessing that it comes on suddenly, without a great deal of warning. If your dog starts growling or even gets tense and someone keeps bothering him, the chances of a bite are pretty high. From the first bite story I gather this isn't the case. So, something is triggering this transition from companion to attack dog. A lot of work might be necessary to correct this behavior. In the mean time, read up on dog body language and keep him under control at all times. Keep calm as you do it. Yelling and pulling at him, or even tensing up, can cause him to interpret your behavior as an indicator of a threat. Good luck, and keep us posted.


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## kmurto (Sep 22, 2011)

Thank you to everyone who had kind and helpful things to say about my dog.

I WANT to bring him to a behaviorist. I should have brought him in the first time it happened! I was so in denial I couldn't see it. I tried taking him out of the situations that seemed to cause it. But this behavior takes me completely by surprise. He will be great, play nicely with kids, be friendly to neighbors and guests and then.... something like this happens. I should have been on top of this, and I hate myself for not recognizing it. And now... I feel like it is too late for that option. If they had not reported it, I know without a doubt I would bring him to a specialist and build a privacy fence. But now... we're in a lot of trouble. If we don't get sued, I'll be very surprised. I'm not sure I can risk everything on the hope that he won't hurt anyone ever again. 

We brought him home from quarantine today. He was so happy to see us! The people at the shelter told us they just loved him and that he was so well behaved. I broke down in tears. I just don't get it. How can a dog go from so well behaved to charging through a fence to bite a girl who was just walking by?? We live in the middle of town and the bus stop is right outside our house. There are kids constantly walking by our house as the park is only a block away. I can't simply remove him from such opportunities. We are planning on having kids ourselves. Could I ever really trust him again?

We have another dog who is a little younger than Remey. Levi has been in the same exact environment. Same training, same situations. He was outside too when this incident happened. His reaction was complete opposite. He couldn't care less about people walking by and has never shown an ounce of aggression. I don't know if it is the difference in breed? age? that Remey was abused as a puppy? that he spent more time in the shelter? I'm at a loss.

I feel like I completely failed him. I promised to love him and protect him forever... and now we're putting him to sleep. I don't know if I'll be able to forgive myself.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The breed was known as the "Nanny Dog" for many years in this country. This is because of their gentle disposition and reliability. None of this pit nonsense reared its ugly head until the 1987 Sports Illustrated article. I seriously wish folks would quit being led by media hype.


Do you (or anyone) have documentation for this "nanny dog" thing? I keep hearing that but have yet to find anything to document that. 

Why do you think SI wrote that article? Could it be because there had been an alarming upswing in deaths by dogs and that a breed over-represented in these deaths was the pit bull? 

I think the OP would do well to have this dog pts. It's the most responsible thing to do at this point, imo. Unless she can truly commit to total management and intensive work with an animal behaviorist.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Website is a load of garbage, FYI. Also, the CDC recorded the number of dog bite fatalities from 1979-1998, 20 years, at 327. That's roughly 16 deaths a year. Even if that silly statistic that 65% of the deaths were Pits, Rotts, and Presas (all DIFFERENT BREEDS not just Pits that you think are so dangerous) that would leave those THREE breeds responsible for roughly 10, so a whole 3 deaths a piece? But since that statistic is silly that is a moot point.
> 
> While I'm at it: http://badrap.org/rescue/index.html


You do realize that your website is liable to the same description of being "a load of garbage", as the Clifton or Dogbitelaw websites? Which website, between the Clifton site and the Badrap site has the greater zealotry? Which one has more of an ax to grind?


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

wil.wish said:


> I'm guessing that the core of your issue is some kind of trauma that set up a trigger. Even more so than humans, dogs are creatures of habit. Once a pattern is deeply established, it becomes difficult to dislodge.


To the OP: I believe wil.wish's statement has a great deal of validity. You did say, I believe, that you knew this dog was abused previously, before coming to you. So, I'd tend to agree with wil.wish. Because of this abuse, he has a trigger that sets him off. That's why he can be so loving and well behaved, and then, change in an instant. Some of the time, it's easy to see what causes this, like the kids taunting him as they go by. But, other times, who knows what small thing triggered a bad reaction, in part, due to past issues. 

However, I don't want to downplay the danger at all. So, please, take him to a behaviorist, and let us know how it goes. From all you've said, I believe there is a glimmer of hope and you can, with help, hopefully work through it!


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Meritt Clifton is a member and leader of a radical animal rights organization with an agenda to end pet ownership.


Evidence?



> His "study" which is not a study but merely a compilation of media reports has been discredited.


Evidence?



> Other than a tool to drum up business for a few law firms that prey on sensationalism to drum up business, it has been discredited and is no longer used.


Hmm. That's not been my impression. 



> Is is nothing more than a listing of newspaper articles. The media is not about facts or truth.


Well, actually, he was rather careful about how he used the articles. It's as good a method as any to try to get some idea of the pit bull problem. Even if in half the cases, the breed was misidentified as a pit bull, they were still over-represented in dog attack deaths. 




> In the media and subsequently the masses, the term "pit bull" is the same as terrorist, assualt rifle, and many other phrases that are over used simply to create sensationalism, create emotion and most importantly sell newspapers and advertising.


Oh, that's right. All those things are over-sensationalized. There's actually no problem with terrorists, assault rifles, etc.. The media just makes it all up.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

Tofu_pup said:


> All of the things you listed are traits you might find in a husky.


Oh, for dog's sake! Are you seriously trying to suggest that a dog that's part wolf ISN'T particularly more likely to be dangerous?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

IWlover said:


> Do you (or anyone) have documentation for this "nanny dog" thing? I keep hearing that but have yet to find anything to document that.
> 
> Why do you think SI wrote that article? Could it be because there had been an alarming upswing in deaths by dogs and that a breed over-represented in these deaths was the pit bull?
> 
> I think the OP would do well to have this dog pts. It's the most responsible thing to do at this point, imo. Unless she can truly commit to total management and intensive work with an animal behaviorist.


Well, there doesn't seem to have been a dramatic upswing in deaths. And many of the dogs reported in attacks as pit bulls, turns out that they are not. They are mixes, or a totally different breed. But if it is medium sized to large, short coated and bites, you can almost guarantee that it will be reported as a pit bull.
As to the OP's situation, the only alternative to PTS is a behaviorist. And, with a dog who is landing children in the hospital and lives in a busy area, even working with a good behaviorist is no guarantee that the dog will not end up biting again, and that euthanasia won't be the end result. Owning a dog with a serious bite record is a great deal of responsibility. The dog will have to be managed for life in a way that he doesn't have uncontrolled interactions with strangers. Frequently a behavior protocol will improve the dog's behavior, and owners think the problem is solved, and let down their guard. And things go bad. I would never harshly judge a person in this situation for choosing euthanasia.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

There was a big upswing in deaths by pit bulls. Some were probably mixes, but most were not. The 80s was when pit bulls went mainstream as a breed and there was an upswing in their popularity which paralleled the upswing in serious attacks by them. 

I've been listening to pit bull advocates in various places for 10 years at least, and they are just as biased as they say their "opponents" are. If not more so. 

To be clear: I'm NOT in favor of BSL, mostly because it doesn't address the problem. And, I'm NOT saying that most pit bulls are "dangerous". I'm sure most of them aren't. I'm just saying that the stats (and a new study that just came out of U. of Texas confirms this) do not come from thin air, are not only put forward by zealots, and are not worthless.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

My point was that a lot of people are suckered into paying $$$ for huskyXmalamutes. There was at least one husky that I recall in a fatality report for 2010. So it's not outside the realm of possibilities that this particular poster was duped as well.

To the OP-
Be proactive. 
Talk to the girl's parents. Offer to pay the medical bills and let them know that you are seeking the help of professionals. 

I maintain that you should be taking him out on leash. Even after all the behavior modification, he should not be outside unattended.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> Do you (or anyone) have documentation for this "nanny dog" thing? I keep hearing that but have yet to find anything to document that.
> 
> Why do you think SI wrote that article? Could it be because there had been an alarming upswing in deaths by dogs and that a breed over-represented in these deaths was the pit bull?
> 
> I think the OP would do well to have this dog pts. It's the most responsible thing to do at this point, imo. Unless she can truly commit to total management and intensive work with an animal behaviorist.


I think you know well that hard documentation on the "nanny dog" thing. The anti pit folks like to use the lack of written documentation from the era as proof. I know different from personal experiences. My grandparents and in particular my great grandmother often referred to them as Nanny dogs. Well my great grandmother referred to them as "Nanner" dogs. She had a tendency to put "r" sounds on the end of words.


Secondly do you know the history behind SI article? That it directly correlates with the rise in the thug dog and gangsta dog image of the breed? That article did a ton of damage to the breed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> I'm just saying that the stats (and a new study that just came out of U. of Texas confirms this) do not come from thin air, are not only put forward by zealots, and are not worthless.



The U of Texas study was actually a case study by doctors at the University Hospital in San Antonio. Their data is as flawed as every other study..... They got their breed data second hand. They simply read AC and police reports and assigned whatever breed was written down. There was no authentication process. 

Some might argue that Animal Control Officers and Police have the expertise to determine breed..... If you think so, show me a single Animal Control or Police training program that includes dog breed identification in the cirriculum....


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

IWlover said:


> There was a big upswing in deaths by pit bulls. Some were probably mixes, but most were not. The 80s was when pit bulls went mainstream as a breed and there was an upswing in their popularity which paralleled the upswing in serious attacks by them.


Evidence????


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The U of Texas study was actually a case study by doctors at the University Hospital in San Antonio. Their data is as flawed as every other study..... They got their breed data second hand. They simply read AC and police reports and assigned whatever breed was written down. There was no authentication process.
> 
> Some might argue that Animal Control Officers and Police have the expertise to determine breed..... If you think so, show me a single Animal Control or Police training program that includes dog breed identification in the cirriculum....


The breed identifications I see at my local shelter are . . . interesting. They did adopt out one puppy to a lady as an Australian Shepherd that grew up to be a blue merle Great Dane.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

kmurto said:


> Thank you to everyone who had kind and helpful things to say about my dog.
> 
> I WANT to bring him to a behaviorist. I should have brought him in the first time it happened! I was so in denial I couldn't see it. I tried taking him out of the situations that seemed to cause it. But this behavior takes me completely by surprise. He will be great, play nicely with kids, be friendly to neighbors and guests and then.... something like this happens. I should have been on top of this, and I hate myself for not recognizing it. And now... I feel like it is too late for that option. If they had not reported it, I know without a doubt I would bring him to a specialist and build a privacy fence. But now... we're in a lot of trouble. If we don't get sued, I'll be very surprised. I'm not sure I can risk everything on the hope that he won't hurt anyone ever again.
> 
> ...


It's never too late to see a behaviorist and if I were you I would at least make this investment at this time. If you feel you can't provide for him now under the behaviorists guide lines (there are medical conditions you might not even know about that cause this aggression that can be fixed) then it would be best to have him humanely PTS.



IWlover said:


> You do realize that your website is liable to the same description of being "a load of garbage", as the Clifton or Dogbitelaw websites? Which website, between the Clifton site and the Badrap site has the greater zealotry? Which one has more of an ax to grind?


No, because these people actually own and spend time with Pit Bulls and know what they're talking about. No agenda to have the dogs they loved banned or owned by idiots. 

I want Irish Wolfhounds banned. They used to be used as war dogs. They are big and strong and quite frankly clearly dangerous to people since they were used as late at 1918. Also since they killed wolves they will definitely kill dogs and no one wants their dogs killed by these beasts.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Originally Posted by JohnnyBandit 
Meritt Clifton is a member and leader of a radical animal rights organization with an agenda to end pet ownership.



IWlover said:


> Evidence?.


http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/apHomeTeam.html


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> *1)*Evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) ANIMAL PEOPLE editor Merritt Clifton (right), a second-generation lifelong vegetarian, has teamed with Kim Bartlett to provide information service to the humane community since 1986. His duties for ANIMAL PEOPLE include researching and writing more than 200 articles and filling more than 2,000 information requests per year. A reporter, editor, columnist, and foreign correspondent since 1968, specializing in animal and habitat-related coverage since 1978, Clifton was a founding member of the Society of Environmental Journalists, and is a four-time winner of national awards for investigative reporting. [The baby cheetah wasn't picked up: she leaped up, uninvited, during a visit to the Kenya Wildlife Service animal orphanage in Nairobi, and made herself at home.] 
Animal People, Inc. Board of Directors

Kim Bartlett <[email protected]>


Merritt Clifton <[email protected]>


Patrice Greanville <[email protected]>


2)Straight from the report itself...
_Reports are logged as received, and the current log is printed out as
requested. Compiled by the editor of ANIMAL PEOPLE from press accounts
since 1982, this table covers only attacks by dogs of clearly identified
breed type or ancestry, as designated by animal control officers or others
with evident expertise, who have been kept as pets._
http://dogbitelaw.com/images/pdf/Dog_Attacks_1982-2006_Clifton.pdf

And again..... Show me a shred of evidence that Animal Control Officers are experts in breed identification.






3) Must be on a different planet. 

4)How do you figure they are over represented? 




5) Not always.......But the media uses "monsters" to their advantage.... A perfect example. This is a graphic one... A little dated but good. A couple of years after 9/11, a plane hit a building in tampa. It was a small private plane and it happened on a Sunday afternoon. The police and the Air Force were tracking the plane virtually from the time it got in the air. They knew it was a 16 year old boy that was troubled that stole the plane and intended on committing suicide. He slammed into a building and succeeded..... The police knew this the entire time. But for nearly 24 hours the media alluded that it might be a terror plot. 
In any case, You hear Potential terror plot in the media all the time and it turns into nothing. 
And speaking of defining things.... How about defining an Assault Rifle....


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I want Irish Wolfhounds banned. They used to be used as war dogs. They are big and strong and quite frankly clearly dangerous to people since they were used as late at 1918. Also since they killed wolves they will definitely kill dogs and no one wants their dogs killed by these beasts.


Actually, the reason groups like H$U$ and PeTa are so hot to push to eliminate pit bulls is because once that's done, it's going to be much easier to press for elimination of other breeds. There are already people suggesting that nobody really needs to own a dog that weighs more than 30 lbs. because bigger dogs are more dangerous than little dogs. You wanna stand up for this, I hope you don't REALLY love Irish Wolfhounds, because they won't be around long.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Actually, the reason groups like H$U$ and PeTa are so hot to push to eliminate pit bulls is because once that's done, it's going to be much easier to press for elimination of other breeds. There are already people suggesting that nobody really needs to own a dog that weighs more than 30 lbs. because bigger dogs are more dangerous than little dogs. You wanna stand up for this, I hope you don't REALLY love Irish Wolfhounds, because they won't be around long.


Exactly my point. People are so cavalier about this crap when it doesn't have any thing to do with their buts, BUT IT WILL. I think it's insane when fellow dog owners get in threads like this and say this nonsense. I am not even heartless enough to say I can't wait until their dogs are next and they have to defend something they love to the ignorant.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

OP please before you put your dog to sleep have his thiriods tested. This can cause a dog to be suddenly aggressive. And it is never too late to see a behaviorest. You seem to care a lot just give it one more go with someone who know how to handle these things. Good luck!


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 1) ANIMAL PEOPLE editor Merritt Clifton (right), a second-generation lifelong vegetarian, has teamed with Kim Bartlett to provide information service to the humane community since 1986. His duties for ANIMAL PEOPLE include researching and writing more than 200 articles and filling more than 2,000 information requests per year. A reporter, editor, columnist, and foreign correspondent since 1968, specializing in animal and habitat-related coverage since 1978, Clifton was a founding member of the Society of Environmental Journalists, and is a four-time winner of national awards for investigative reporting. [The baby cheetah wasn't picked up: she leaped up, uninvited, during a visit to the Kenya Wildlife Service animal orphanage in Nairobi, and made herself at home.]
> Animal People, Inc. Board of Directors
> 
> Kim Bartlett <[email protected]>
> ...


Sorry, I don't see any real answers to my questions. One anecdote or personal example doesn't refute a boatload of figures. 

I see nothing in the Animal People descriptions that would mean they are a "radical animal rights" groups. 

Again, even if HALF of the pits in those cases were misidentified, they would still be over-represented in cases of serious attacks and deaths by dogs. 

And to whoever posted the IWs were wardogs crap. Yeah, about a THOUSAND years ago. Really, how stupid is that? 

Okay, I can see that I'm not going to get any better responses here than I've gotten elsewhere. I will go back to lurking on this subject. I was actually trying pretty hard not to comment but just couldn't keep letting this stuff go. 

The zealotry and lack of logic and understanding of the pit bull advocates is pretty sad. I've seen it elsewhere too.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

IWlover said:


> Again, even if HALF of the pits in those cases were misidentified, they would still be over-represented in cases of serious attacks and deaths by dogs.


I wonder, could there be any confounding factors? Did the statistics you used make any attempt to correct for them? 



> And to whoever posted the IWs were wardogs crap. Yeah, about a THOUSAND years ago. Really, how stupid is that?


It's stupid to dismiss IWs' past as war dogs, but not Pit Bulls' past as nanny dogs?



> Okay, I can see that I'm not going to get any better responses here than I've gotten elsewhere.


Then perhaps it's time to consider the possibility that _it's not everyone else_.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I always thought the "nanny dogs" were St. Bernards like in Peter Pan.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

vnairp11 said:


> Spend a lot of time with the dog, have treats in your hand when you go to dog parks. Correct the behavior on leash and right after any signs of aggression, treat her when good behavior is expressed.


 
NO DOG PARK FOR A REPEAT BITER!!!!! 

OP you MUST be sure this dog is SUPERVISED 24/7, the dog should never be out in the yard alone, if it's out in public it should be MUZZLED and if company comes to your house it should be crated. As MANY others with good sense have said you NEED to get a VETERINARY BEHAVIORIST involved to even attemt to rehab this dog and YOU need to learn to read the dogs body language to PREVENT bites. These are the ONLY measures you can take at this point and if you in any way let your gaurd down there WILL be another bite. If you can't manage this situation the BEST thing for the dog is hold it while a vet of YOUR choosing puts the dog down instead of the dog being seized by AC. You have a dangerous dog, accept it and work with the dog accordingly and know that you will NEVER be able to trust this dog NOT to bite.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, btw, here's the part of the CDC dog bite report that nearly everyone ignores and it's probably one of the most important parts of the discussion of the raw data:

"Ideally, breed-specific bite *rates* would be calculated to compare breeds and quantify the relative dangerousness of each breed. For example, 10 fatal attacks by Breed X relative to a population of 10,000 X's (1/1,000) implies a greater risk than 100 attacks by Breed Y relative to a population of 1,000,000 Ys (0.1/1,000). *Without consideration of population sizes, Breed Y would be perceived to be the more dangerous breed on the basis of the number of fatalities.*"

Bolding is mine. The point is, raw numbers aren't actually very useful in determining risk. I'm too lazy to do it now, but at one point I did go through and calculate the relative risks of a number of breeds from the CDC report, and the relative risk from any particular breed wasn't really all that outstanding based on the population of that breed - and that was based on registered dogs, lord knows there's plenty of unregistered pit bulls and bullies out there.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Oh, btw, here's the part of the CDC dog bite report that nearly everyone ignores and it's probably one of the most important parts of the discussion of the raw data:
> 
> "Ideally, breed-specific bite *rates* would be calculated to compare breeds and quantify the relative dangerousness of each breed. For example, 10 fatal attacks by Breed X relative to a population of 10,000 X's (1/1,000) implies a greater risk than 100 attacks by Breed Y relative to a population of 1,000,000 Ys (0.1/1,000). *Without consideration of population sizes, Breed Y would be perceived to be the more dangerous breed on the basis of the number of fatalities.*"
> 
> Bolding is mine. The point is, raw numbers aren't actually very useful in determining risk. I'm too lazy to do it now, but at one point I did go through and calculate the relative risks of a number of breeds from the CDC report, and the relative risk from any particular breed wasn't really all that outstanding based on the population of that breed - and that was based on registered dogs, lord knows there's plenty of unregistered pit bulls and bullies out there.


Sass beat me to it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

IWlover said:


> And to whoever posted the IWs were wardogs crap. Yeah, about a THOUSAND years ago. Really, how stupid is that?


Not stupid at all. I've banned two wolfhounds this year from my boarding and grooming facility because of human aggression...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

IWlover said:


> Sorry, I don't see any real answers to my questions. One anecdote or personal example doesn't refute a boatload of figures.
> 
> I see nothing in the Animal People descriptions that would mean they are a "radical animal rights" groups.
> 
> ...


Oh OK, your breed is different. They're both not dogs or any thing. Your big strong dog should be fine but other big strong dogs should not, got it. About as stupid as every single thing you've posted in here, that is the point. It's so cute you think there is a lack of logic going on in this thread because you are clearly a proponent of sound logic. I'm personally happy to hear you'll go back to lurking. What is that quote? Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Are you seriously trying to suggest that a dog that's part wolf ISN'T particularly more likely to be dangerous?


You're kidding me right? Tell me you're kidding. Please. I'm begging.

Huskies are NOT part wolf. This is just utterly ridiculous and kinda shows your ignorance.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Xeph said:


> You're kidding me right? Tell me you're kidding. Please. I'm begging.
> 
> Huskies are NOT part wolf. This is just utterly ridiculous and kinda shows your ignorance.


The dog was described as a wolf/husky hybrid.


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

To the OP, I just want to say that I completely understand what you're going through. I really do and it breaks my heart. I could've written your post myself about my first dog. Almost the same thing happened to me. We put her to sleep. It still hurts all these years later, but I know I made the right decision then. I had never even heard of a behaviorist back then, about 15+ years ago. If I had, I would've tried going that route, but at the time, I did all I could do with what I had. It wouldnt hurt to try it? But, you know whats best and if you decide to PTS, please dont be hard on yourself for that decision. Sometimes it needs to be done.


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## JessRU09 (Aug 25, 2008)

IWlover said:


> Oh, for dog's sake! Are you seriously trying to suggest that a dog that's part wolf ISN'T particularly more likely to be dangerous?


To be fair, I wouldn't say wolf dogs are inherently more dangerous than any other dog. They can be more skittish, fearful, and shy, depending on their wolf content and their background. If handled by an experienced owner, and all their needs met, they can be extremely gentle and trustworthy. 

Here's Takoda, 100% pure wolf, ambassador of Howling Woods Farm, a wolf/wolf dog/northern breed rescue I volunteer for. The other dog, on the left, is also a mid-content mix. Looks MIGHTY dangerous!









I can dig up literally hundreds of pictures of wolves, high content wolf dogs, and low content wolf dogs being hugged and cuddled by children. We take photos with the public to raise funds for the farm and spread awareness that wolf dogs are not vicious. They do have special needs, different from your average dog. But when these needs are met, they aren't monsters. If they were, we certainly couldn't bring children and infants into the pen and photograph the animals with them.

I think you need to avoid sweeping generalizations when it comes to ANY type of dog.


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## JessRU09 (Aug 25, 2008)

One more because I love this picture. More evidence of dangerous wolf dogs:


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

JessRU09 said:


> To be fair, I wouldn't say wolf dogs are inherently more dangerous than any other dog. They can be more skittish, fearful, and shy, depending on their wolf content and their background. If handled by an experienced owner, and all their needs met, they can be extremely gentle and trustworthy.
> 
> Here's Takoda, 100% pure wolf, ambassador of Howling Woods Farm, a wolf/wolf dog/northern breed rescue I volunteer for. The other dog, on the left, is also a mid-content mix. Looks MIGHTY dangerous!
> 
> ...


Really? Awfully big ears for a pure wolf. http://www.wolfpark.org/ccpage2.shtml
I have to agree though, that I've met some very nice hybrids (some were very low content and some looked higher - it seems most people get told that theirs is high content whether it is or not) The ones I've met are very intelligent, very observant, and probably not a good match for the average dog owner. I've also met some nice wolves. I don't think hybrids should be promoted as a good choice for most people, but neither should they be demonized.

Me and a real wolf:


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> The dog was described as a wolf/husky hybrid.


I'll make my point a little more clear.
Considering the rest of the garbage the person was posting, I would not be surprised if they had been talked into buying some kind of Malamute mix. 

And I love it when people jump onto DF for the first time, owned a couple of dogs in their life, maybe watched an episode of the dog whisperer, and they are all too happy to dish out hair brained advice.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Tofu_pup said:


> I'll make my point a little more clear.
> Considering the rest of the garbage the person was posting, I would not be surprised if they had been talked into buying some kind of Malamute mix.
> 
> And I love it when people jump onto DF for the first time, owned a couple of dogs in their life, maybe watched an episode of the dog whisperer, and they are all to happy to dish out hair brained advice.


I agree with you 100%. Just pointing out that nobody said huskys were part wolf.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The fact is ANY DOG, no matter the breed or breed mix can be dangerous if not properly socailized and/or if there are health problems present that may not have been diagnosed (in fact many fear/anxiety biters have been shown to have underlying health problems including heart conditions, thyroid problems, vision problems and tick bourne illness). That's why most Knowlegable people will tell the owner of an agressive dog to get the dog checked for these common causes FIRST.


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## JessRU09 (Aug 25, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Really? Awfully big ears for a pure wolf.


Yes, he's a mix of grey wolf and eastern timber wolf. His breeding lines were from fur farms in Canada, bred for pelts. No doubt he wasn't bred _well_, as far as wolves go.

We don't promote the average person adopt one of these animals. We educated the public, and definitely sway people away from backyard bred wolf dogs. There are some individuals who become passionate enough about wolf dogs, usually after volunteering with us for awhile, that do meet the criteria to adopt a low or even mid-content wolf dog. And some folks are just knowledgeable and passionate enough on their own. 

After all, many of these mixes exist, and we certainly can't keep them all at the rescue. Calling them dangerous, JUST because they may (and in many cases, may not) be mixed with wolf is unfair. Many animal control places cannot adopt them out to the general public, and will simply put them down, based on their name. Half the time, these "wolf dogs" are just wolfy looking malamutes or huskies. Aggression (or lack there of) needs to be evaluated based on the animal and their individual circumstances... be it a wolf dog, a husky, a pit bull, a lab, etc.



cshellenberger said:


> The fact is ANY DOG, no matter the breed or breed mix can be dangerous if not properly socailized and/or if there are health problems present that may not have been diagnosed (in fact many fear/anxiety biters have been shown to have underlying health problems including heart conditions, thyroid problems, vision problems and tick bourne illness). That's why most Knowlegable people will tell the owner of an agressive dog to get the dog checked for these common causes FIRST.


^^ THIS.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> Sorry, I don't see any real answers to my questions. One anecdote or personal example doesn't refute a boatload of figures.
> 
> I see nothing in the Animal People descriptions that would mean they are a "radical animal rights" groups.
> 
> ...


Just because you don't see the real answers, does not mean they are not there. 

Animal peoples own website states that they are an animal rights organization. By definition any animal rights organization is radical. Furthermore, they are anti hunting, anti fishing, anti farming, and at least in favor of restricting dog owners rights. That is radical. 



I still don't get your over representation claim.... Are you aware of just how common pit bulls are? It is one of the most common breeds. Have you been to animal shelters and Animal Control facilities and seen just how many are out there? 

This is right from the ASPCA..
_In March 2000, the ASPCA asked representative U.S. shelters about their experiences with pit bulls. Thirty-five percent of shelters take in at least one pit bull a day, and in one out of four shelters, pits and pit mixes make up more than 20 percent of the shelter dog population. New York, Chicago, Boston, Phoenix and Honolulu each saw 3,000 to 7,500 pits turned in during the previous year. One shelter staffer recounted hundreds of abuse cases that came through their doors — pit bulls that had been burned, beaten, starved, neglected and used for dogfighting. 

According to the shelters surveyed in 2000, a third did not adopt pit bulls out — some because it is against the law to have these dogs in their communities, and others because of concern about where the dogs will ultimately end up. Sadly, in these cases, the dogs are euthanized.

_

Even if ALL the pit bull reports were accurate.... Which they are not, The numbers of deaths caused by the it would still statistically be a very safe breed. 



In any case, you are probably better off lurking. Because you don't bring anything but misquided opinion to the discussion. Talk about lack of logic and sad.....Believing the hype in the media.... That is sad.....


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## daimere (Sep 2, 2011)

Since people are arguing whether bites studies are accurate, I wanted to share an antidote:
I was working on another unit on break at the computer lab. The nurse on the unit was with me. All of a sudden she screamed, "Oh no! My grandson." Within 10 minutes she left and told us that a pit bull maimed her 10 month grandson. Within a few hours, she was back. Evidently, it wasn't a pit bull attack. A human had done this and blamed it on a dog.

Before I joined this forum, I didn't even know there were different bully breeds and all that. That one page where you find the true pitbull is really educating. The one dog that ever bit me was a cocker spaniel because our neighbor had one that bit everyone. I remember growing up terrified of it. So, yeah, any dog can bite and be aggressive.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

1. Anecdote

2. I fondly remember one story(posted here) in which a man told his pit(or pit mix, who knows?) to attack. When the dog didn't attack, he threw it at the person that had him so pissed in the first place. He was charged with assault and animal abuse. Way to fail.


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## Papa Deuce (Mar 26, 2007)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> No, they're not, and to think they are is ludicrous. Might want to read up on the breed before putting it out there on a public forum. The ONLY aggression to be concerned with inherently because of the breed is dog aggression, not human.



That's why we hear so many horror stories of people getting mauled..... And that is why I could not get insurance for my home when I wanted a Rottie.... so many breeds are known to bite and do major damage. Pit Bulls are on the insurance list. For anybody to say that they have no human aggression is just ridiculous. But I certainly would not say that 10% of them are human agressive, either.... just far more than dogs like Golden Retrievers, Bernese Mountain Dogs...... And I don't buy into media hype. But I have seen so many stories showing the dogs being taken away by city agencies.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

daimere said:


> .
> 
> Before I joined this forum, I didn't even know there were different bully breeds and all that. That one page where you find the true pitbull is really educating. The one dog that ever bit me was a cocker spaniel because our neighbor had one that bit everyone. I remember growing up terrified of it. So, yeah, any dog can bite and be aggressive.


In 30+ years of dog training, I've been bitten by a toy poodle, a miniature dachshund and a scottish terrier. Only the scotty bite was serious.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Anyone else having difficulty navigating to page two of this thread?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

There are two parallel, but largely unrelated discussions going on here. 

Let's try to focus on the topic so we don't have to edit out two-thirds if the thread.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Whew, I actually got here...

OP. I do not envy your position, though I really wish you had understood earlier in the sequence of events that your dog may be a danger in certain situations. One bite, provoked, is one thing...a second one is not. Period. Doesn't matter what kind of dog it is. There is an issue, whether it is health related temperament changes, conditioned fear responses or what have you . It's called "bite PREVENTION" for a reason. Any time your dog has an opportunity or feels the need to aggressively protect something (itself, it's space, it's human) it puts the dog and the public at risk.

IF you feel you can or want to work on this then I would highly recommend a VETERINARY behaviourist, one who can assess the blood work etc along with the behaviour. But if you are the person who cannot or will not accept that this will be a lifelong extreme management case, then it would be best for you to have the dog humanely euthed. I firmly believe that we as dog lovers are responsible for the care and well being of our dogs, for as long as we have them, and this includes being there and holding them in our arms when they are euthanized.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

kmurto said:


> I feel like I completely failed him. I promised to love him and protect him forever... and now we're putting him to sleep. I don't know if I'll be able to forgive myself.


It happens, it's painful but honestly it may well be for the best. I've had to put dogs down due to aggression, it hurts but sometimes it's the ONLY way. Hopefully you'll be able to look back on this and see where things started an the next pup you get will benefit.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Papa Deuce said:


> That's why we hear so many horror stories of people getting mauled..... And that is why I could not get insurance for my home when I wanted a Rottie.... so many breeds are known to bite and do major damage. Pit Bulls are on the insurance list.* For anybody to say that they have no human aggression is just ridiculous.* But I certainly would not say that 10% of them are human agressive, either.... just far more than dogs like Golden Retrievers, Bernese Mountain Dogs...... And I don't buy into media hype. But I have seen so many stories showing the dogs being taken away by city agencies.


What I said was as a breed the only inherent aggression any knowledgeable Pit owner should be concerned about is dog aggression, because you could have a dog and social him out the yin and still end up with a DA dog. ARE there Pits who are human aggressive? Sure, I haven't met every single Pit. But there are individual dogs of any breed that are aggressive towards humans. True human aggression is not common. A dog that has bitten does not equal human aggressive.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> What I said was as a breed the only inherent aggression any knowledgeable Pit owner should be concerned about is dog aggression, because you could have a dog and social him out the yin and still end up with a DA dog. ARE there Pits who are human aggressive? Sure, I haven't met every single Pit. But there are individual dogs of any breed that are aggressive towards humans. True human aggression is not common. A dog that has bitten does not equal human aggressive.


And what people do not consider...... Pits were bred for a specific purpose. Fighting other dogs. Nothing else....... The way they fought them, at least three men were in the pit with the dogs. Human aggression was not tolorated. Even during the stress of a match. Any dog that showed any sign of agression was culled immediately. (Killed)


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And what people do not consider...... Pits were bred for a specific purpose. Fighting other dogs. Nothing else....... The way they fought them, at least three men were in the pit with the dogs. Human aggression was not tolorated. Even during the stress of a match. Any dog that showed any sign of agression was culled immediately. (Killed)


Even here, people fail to realize that a dog can be DA and not HA.

But I was under the impression that only one person was in the ring. What purpose did three men serve?
(Actually, I should probably take this question to you pit bulls and the media thread)


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Tofu_pup said:


> Even here, people fail to realize that a dog can be DA and not HA.
> 
> But I was under the impression that only one person was in the ring. What purpose did three men serve?
> (Actually, I should probably take this question to you pit bulls and the media thread)


Each dog had a handler and there was a referee....

Yes, I agree..... Even people that supposedly know dogs often fail to realize this.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And what people do not consider...... Pits were bred for a specific purpose. Fighting other dogs. Nothing else....... The way they fought them, at least three men were in the pit with the dogs. Human aggression was not tolorated. Even during the stress of a match. Any dog that showed any sign of agression was culled immediately. (Killed)


Yep. I bring this point up with people frequently, but a lot of people are too idiotic to realize/admit that a dog aggressive towards other dogs does not mean aggressive towards humans.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Yep. I bring this point up with people frequently, but a lot of people are too idiotic to realize/admit that a dog aggressive towards other dogs does not mean aggressive towards humans.


Come on, people are still trying to be the "pack leader" to their dogs so obviously dogs view people as other dogs so dog aggressive=human aggressive. How can you not know this?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

MissBodhi said:


> I'm really sorry to hear about your troubles with your dog, and of the little girl who was bitten. I can relate to your situation, and let me say from experience, if the animal has attacked this much he WILL do it again. (Next time, it could be substantially worse - I'll explain later about what happened with my wolf/husky hybrid.) I understand that you love your animal, and he loves you, but we have to accept the reality of the breed we're housing. Pits are known to be aggressive - and it looks like he will either need to be taken to a shelter, rehabilitational facility for that particular breed, or put to sleep.


I dont think this kind of comment solves anything, a dogs breed should never be an issue. Pits & pit mixes are NOTHING like wolfdogs.. If he does go in public, he should be muzzled unless you can 100% manage his interactions with ppl & under no circumstances should hr go to the DP anymore until this issue is under control.



> I had a wolf/husky hybrid some years ago. With me, she was always loving & tender, and I loved her also. I hoped that her husky genes would be more dominant, but she ended up 100% wolf-like. The signs started early, and I too ignored them. She'd climb fences like a cat, she'd chew the fuse box to the electrical fence & escape on a daily basis. I couldn't handle the complaints from neighbors about her killing smaller pets, chickens, etc so I gave her to my brother (who lived in the country with lots of land to roam). I should've given her to a shelter, but I was overly optimistic about her being a domestic animal. Anyway, long story short she ended up biting through an unattended toddlers soiled diaper rupturing his anus & testicles. At that point it was too late, and we had to put her down.
> 
> I know it's hard - but you're doing the right thing and you're not alone. Best wishes to your family and your dog!


I would get in touch with a good canine behaviorist, i dont think this is something that can he fixed "at home". I wish you the best of luck with your boy.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> If he does go in public, he should be muzzled unless you can 100% manage his interactions with ppl & under no circumstances should hr go to the DP anymore until this issue is under control.
> .


Agree with muzzle. But for a dog with this history (landing probably a level 4 bite on a kid?) I would suggest that even with the help of a good vet behaviorist, and significant improvement, this is NOT a dog park dog. Unless there is an underlying medical issue causing the behavior, once your dog has bitten several people and bitten seriously, you never again put him in situations where he can do that. With good management and good training, dogs do improve. And the biggest risk at that point is that the owner starts feeling like the problem is fixed and gets a little complacent about training and management.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> In 30+ years of dog training, I've been bitten by a toy poodle, a miniature dachshund and a scottish terrier. Only the scotty bite was serious.


Which means, of course, NOTHING in terms of actual evidence. You are full of personal anecdotes. . .


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And what people do not consider...... Pits were bred for a specific purpose. Fighting other dogs. Nothing else....... The way they fought them, at least three men were in the pit with the dogs. Human aggression was not tolorated. Even during the stress of a match. Any dog that showed any sign of agression was culled immediately. (Killed)


Ah, not always; not if that dog was a big winner. $$$$$$ talk you know. . .


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

IWlover said:


> Which means, of course, NOTHING in terms of actual evidence. You are full of personal anecdotes. . .


As are you, frankly anyone not involved with a certain breed can ONLY speak anecdotally of that breed.

The fact is most aggression in most dogs (no matter the breed) stems from FEAR, sometimes that fear has roots in health conditions, sometimes it stems from abuse. Non fear based aggression is most ALWAYS trained and seldom comes naturally to a dog. When trained PROPERLY we get take down dogs for police and Schulzhund (I know I probably spelled that wrong) when trained incorrectly we get lawsuits ready to happen and bad headlines.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> As are you, frankly anyone not involved with a certain breed can ONLY speak anecdotally of that breed.


Oh, really? Show me one that I've posted.

I guess we should just throw any stats out the window? After all, they're all just biased, meanie pit bull haters who are radical animal rights people who are happy to outlaw the owning of any pet whatsoever. Right?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

IWlover said:


> Oh, really? Show me one that I've posted.
> 
> I guess we should just throw any stats out the window? After all, they're all just biased, meanie pit bull haters who are radical animal rights people who are happy to outlaw the owning of any pet whatsoever. Right?


 
15 years ago it was the same story for Rottweilers, 25 years ago it was the same stats for Dobermans, 50 years ago it was Irish setters. Pit Bulls are the MOST numerous breed out there right now, there fore they have the highest statistical bites. They are the most overbred dog and right now the most discriminated against. I wonder what breed will replace them 10-15 years down the road.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> 15 years ago it was the same story for Rottweilers, 25 years ago it was the same stats for Dobermans, 50 years ago it was Irish setters. Pit Bulls are the MOST numerous breed out there right now, there fore they have the highest statistical bites. They are the most overbred dog and right now the most discriminated against. I wonder what breed will replace them 10-15 years down the road.


Yes, I know, and I've often made the exact same point to pit bull advocates (for lack of a better term). But they don't listen. I explain how the Doberman breeders took things in hand when the Doberman was the "devil breed" of the decade. Iows, they did not spend tons of energy DENYING that there WAS a problem, as I see so many pit bull advocates doing. 

The pit bull problem started in the early 1980s. It's still a problem. What have the pit bull people done but make excuses, fanatically "defend" their breed, and bully (pun intended) anyone who dared to step into the mess of dog poo that is the pit bull issue? 

At least, Diane Jessup is honest to some degree. But I rarely see her quoted by pit bull advocates.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Because there is a cultural/socioeconomic difference in the bad breeders of the Dobe and Rottweiler and the bad breeders of the Pit Bull. The media hasn't helped in it's propagation of images of the Pit Bull as a bad A$$ (including Sarah Palins pit Bull statements). The Dobe and Rottweiler never became popular with a certain criminal element that uses the Pit Bull as protection. Most Pit Bull *advocates* are from the same socio-economic background as the Dobe and Rottweiler groups and have little say in the breeding practices of the irresponsible group.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

IWlover said:


> Which means, of course, NOTHING in terms of actual evidence. You are full of personal anecdotes. . .


Well, mebbee. I would rather be full of personal anecdotes (which are at least based on real life experience) than unfounded claims based on nothing. ;-)


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

IWlover said:


> Ah, not always; not if that dog was a big winner. $$$$$$ talk you know. . .


Can you provide the evidence this statement is based on? Thanks.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

This guy was identified as a "purebred" pit bull at the shelter. When we had an article written about our school reading program work, he was called a "handsome mixed breed." I'm sure if he were to bite someone he would become a "pit bull" again. This is why I put little stock in statistics that rely on subjective rather than objective criteria. The pit bull is in the eye of the beholder.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

people getting hurt by dogs sucks. period. 

my kid had his ear ripped almost completely off by a retired track greyhound. 

but you know what else sucks? losing your property rights over something that on average kills less than swimming pools, less than bikes or workout equipment. and it is not only that property rights issue. it extends into the realm of an animal welfare issue in respect to both fiscal issues and public health.

sheer numbers of intake given the very rough likely underrepresenting population stats on dogs with bully ancestry tax already overworked programs. you're looking at court related policies and the cost of those as well. and that many dead dogs...ridiculous health risk to the public. in cities where serious ordinance like that has been initiated, the problems don't disappear. you're not doing much to prevent situations like what happened with my son. and in cities where lesser magnitude ordinances have been initiated, the court related budgets go up. and the fines create even more burden because you're starting out with a majority population of owners who can't afford the fines in the first place. like me. i lose my dog who has done nothing wrong and get branded as a criminal and slapped with a record...given the examples of the kinds of fines that are associated with the lesser ordinances.

it's not a black and white issue. its HUGELY complicated. and there's been examples of non breed specific laws that have address EACH and EVERY one of those points.

your logic is flawed.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Because there is a cultural/socioeconomic difference in the bad breeders of the Dobe and Rottweiler and the bad breeders of the Pit Bull. The media hasn't helped in it's propagation of images of the Pit Bull as a bad A$$ (including Sarah Palins pit Bull statements). The Dobe and Rottweiler never became popular with a certain criminal element that uses the Pit Bull as protection. Most Pit Bull *advocates* are from the same socio-economic background as the Dobe and Rottweiler groups and have little say in the breeding practices of the irresponsible group.


Yes, I know that and understand that. But the constant _denial _that's there ANY problem at all is obtuse. Deal with the problem head-on. Don't pretend that there's no problem. That's pretty much all I'm asking.


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Can you provide the evidence this statement is based on? Thanks.


Yes, I have an article by someone who was raised in a family in the South where pit bull fighting was important. I'll have to get the quote from the article. Not right now, though, as it's late


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## IWlover (Sep 4, 2009)

Lindbert said:


> This guy was identified as a "purebred" pit bull at the shelter. When we had an article written about our school reading program work, he was called a "handsome mixed breed." I'm sure if he were to bite someone he would become a "pit bull" again. This is why I put little stock in statistics that rely on subjective rather than objective criteria. The pit bull is in the eye of the beholder.


Right. And as I've said, if 50% of the pit bulls in all the news articles have been misidentified, pit bulls would_ still_ be the number-one killer of people. Then what?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

IWlover said:


> Right. And as I've said, if 50% of the pit bulls in all the news articles have been misidentified, pit bulls would_ still_ be the number-one killer of people. Then what?


Ignoring, of course, the fact that death by dog of ANY breed (or all breeds) is rare, 1 in 137,694
Considerably less likely than death by falling off furniture (1 in 5,508), suffocating in bed (1 in 10,948) or being struck by lightning (1 in 71,601) or being killed by another human (a REAL risk). We should probably ban cars, as the risk of dying in an auto accident is 1 in 242)


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

The reason they are the # 1 killer of ppl is because a majority of the time, they are misidentified AS "pit bulls"? Just a thought.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> Ah, not always; not if that dog was a big winner. $$$$$$ talk you know. . .


The dog was culled in the pit..... If the owner didn't cull the dog, he had no choice......

You have no proof otherwise..... Unless of course you have spent time in a pit. 



In any case, I thought you were going back to lurking.....


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

IWlover said:


> Yes, I have an article by someone who was raised in a family in the South where pit bull fighting was important. I'll have to get the quote from the article. Not right now, though, as it's late


I'm thinking that an article by someone who "knew people who . . ." is something that's known as hearsay?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> Right. And as I've said, if 50% of the pit bulls in all the news articles have been misidentified, pit bulls would_ still_ be the number-one killer of people. Then what?


But Statistically the would not be. In fact if half the news articles or even all of them were right, statistically they would be a very safe breed based on pure numbers of dogs. 

If an Irish Wolfhound killed a person once every ten years, they would statistically be a more dangerous breed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> Yes, I have an article by someone who was raised in a family in the South where pit bull fighting was important. I'll have to get the quote from the article. Not right now, though, as it's late



So you have some anecdotal third party he said she said evidence... But not right now.

But not right now..... 

To this point you have not put up anything.......


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> I had a wolf/husky hybrid some years ago. With me, she was always loving & tender, and I loved her also. I hoped that her husky genes would be more dominant, but she ended up 100% wolf-like. The signs started early, and I too ignored them. She'd climb fences like a cat, she'd chew the fuse box to the electrical fence & escape on a daily basis. I couldn't handle the complaints from neighbors about her killing smaller pets, chickens, etc so I gave her to my brother (who lived in the country with lots of land to roam). I should've given her to a shelter, but I was overly optimistic about her being a domestic animal. Anyway, long story short she ended up biting through an unattended toddlers soiled diaper rupturing his anus & testicles. At that point it was too late, and we had to put her down.


Oh good Lord!!! Here we go again. All those traits are HUSKY traits and NOT specifically wolf traits. My own huskies, if kept improperly, would climb fences, chew things until they're unrecognizable, escape, and kill small animals and chickens every chance they got. Sounds like a case of an owner being completely and utterly unprepared for RESPONSIBLE ownership of a Northern breed. 

And leaving her UNATTENDED with a toddler? Are you freaking kidding me? Dog or wolfdog, that's idiocy and I'd be questioning the parenting skills involved, AND your judgment in placing what you BELIEVED to be a wolfdog in a home with a toddler. SERIOUSLY!? If you had done even a shred of research, you would know that placing a large Northern breed dog, let alone an alleged wolfdog, in a home with a toddler is a recipe for disaster. And because it's obvious you didn't do your research, I would be willing to bet money that you wouldn't know the difference between an ACTUAL wolfdog and a misrepresented Husky mix. 90% of the "wolf hybrid" claims I see are complete nonsense. In my mind, there's a 10% chance that the animal in question is even an ACTUAL wolfdog. And even if it was a real wolfdog, there is so much terribly wrong with how this canine was managed and kept, that even a domestic Northern dog in the same setting would have easily done the same.



> Oh, for dog's sake! Are you seriously trying to suggest that a dog that's part wolf ISN'T particularly more likely to be dangerous?


This issue is SO much more complicated than you make it out to be. Can you state, across the board, that a wolfdog from great bloodlines, bred for TEMPERAMENT and a high stress threshold over the past 2 decades, and bottle-raised from a young age and socialized well, is AUTOMATICALLY more dangerous than the BYB German Shepherd (I just picked a random breed here, not hating on the Shepherds  ) whose parents had crap for temperament and were brought up by idiots who had NO idea how to properly raise a dog? JUST because there's wolf in the mix?

Are you even aware that in the VAST majority of wolfdogs, the pure wolf ancestor is so far removed it's almost negligable?

I train dogs for a living and I can honestly state that I am MORE at risk of a severe bite from the numerous poorly-bred, badly-socialized small "designer dog" mixes (Cockapoos, Shih-poos, etc.) that I see on a daily basis, than I have EVER been working with my own rescued wolfdogs and the wolfdogs I have fostered.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I've been reading this thread with some interest, and just wanted to point something out that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Typically, the statistics, media, and BSL laws lump a number of "pit type" breeds together under the heading of Pit Bull. APBT, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Terriers, American Bully's are the most common ones I believe, with Bull Terriers occasionally included. Given that you have 4 or 5 different breeds lumped together under one designation, it only makes sense that Pits would top the bite statistics. If you looked at each breed separately, as you SHOULD, the numbers would be very different.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

Agreed 110% with Kuma'sMom!

Same issue goes for wolfdogs, who, as I've mentioned above, are vastly misrepresented by breeders and owners nationwide who have nothing more than Husky/Mal/GSD crosses.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I've been reading this thread with some interest, and just wanted to point something out that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Typically, the statistics, media, and BSL laws lump a number of "pit type" breeds together under the heading of Pit Bull. APBT, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Terriers, American Bully's are the most common ones I believe, with Bull Terriers occasionally included. Given that you have 4 or 5 different breeds lumped together under one designation, it only makes sense that Pits would top the bite statistics. If you looked at each breed separately, as you SHOULD, the numbers would be very different.


Not to mention all the boxers, labs, mutts and others identified as pit bulls because people in law enforcement (who usually make the call) have no training whatsoever and tend to label any dog with short hair and a wide snout as a pit bull, regardless of what it is.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I've been reading this thread with some interest, and just wanted to point something out that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Typically, the statistics, media, and BSL laws lump a number of "pit type" breeds together under the heading of Pit Bull. APBT, American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Terriers, American Bully's are the most common ones I believe, with Bull Terriers occasionally included. Given that you have 4 or 5 different breeds lumped together under one designation, it only makes sense that Pits would top the bite statistics. If you looked at each breed separately, as you SHOULD, the numbers would be very different.



It doesn't even have to be one of those to be included.... That baby that was killed near Houston the other day..... The police report and initial media report said the dog was a Lab Mix weighing over 100 pounds..... It magically turned into a pit bull hours later.....

The thing is..... The mom left the baby and dog alone in the house together....


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Oh, agreed Johnny, I was just addressing IWLover's claim that even if 50% of claimed Pit attacks were false identification, they'd still be the number one killer. Not true.

And we had a similar situation happen here, just different breed. A teenage girl trespassed across a person's yard, trying to take a shortcut, and was bitten by the family dog who was in the yard. A local paper reported the dog as a Rottweiler, but made the mistake of posting a picture of the dog involved, which was clearly a mutt, likely had some Shepherd in it, but absolutely no Rottweiler. Thankfully, there were many knowledgeable people who wrote in to the paper and caused such an uproar over the false ID, that the paper was forced to print a large retraction several days later.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IWlover said:


> Yes, I know that and understand that. But the constant _denial _that's there ANY problem at all is obtuse. Deal with the problem head-on. Don't pretend that there's no problem. That's pretty much all I'm asking.


Who doesn't think there is a problem? People dying from dog attack..... that is huge problem.....

The only opposition is on the cause and solution.....

The folks that want breed restrictions or dog owner restrictions seem to think once that happens rose petals will fall from the sky and rabbits will dance in the street....

But it won't....... You could wipe every pit off the face of the Earth, take Rottweilers, Dobes, etc with them..... Things would not get any better.... In fact it would possibly get worse. 
If you think a Pit Bull in the hands of an irresponsible owner is bad news.... What about a Presa, Boerboel, or even an Irish Wolfhound? How would a bigger, stronger, more tenacious dog be in the hands of someone that is irresponsible.......

Specifically looking at children, if you look at attacks..... The child is NEARLY ALWAYS left alone with the dog. The baby in Houston.... Alone with the Dog.... The baby in the Carolinas the other day..... Alone with the dog..... It is a common demoninator......

Adults are a separate issue....... But if owners kept their dogs contained, under control, and trained, there would be few issues.

The fact is Breed bans do not work..... The UK enacted theirs in 1991.... Take a look what happened there....

This is not from a Media source.... This is from Hospital Records and not breed specific.

The UK's dangerous dog act was enacted in 1991.

UK dog bites requiring medical treatment have risen significantly since the ban was enacted. More than doubled in fact.... Dog bites requiring medical care went up 62 percent in the UK between 1997 and 2007 alone. From 2915 in 1997 to 4699 in 2007.
Source:
http://www.hesonline.nhs.uk/Ease/ser...categoryID=864

BTW that is a government site that collects data on medical care and the reason people seek treatment.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Agreed, Johnny. My city has had a Pit Bull ban in effect for over 20 years, and dog bites have not gone down at ALL.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

http://www.no-killnews.com/?p=1750

not that i entirely agree with that assessment of the Calgary Model as opposed to NKN...however...it is an excellent point to beginning to consider more options than just tired old, proven wrong bsl.

Calgary has seen a reduction in dog bites. one needs only to look at the city website to locate the numbers. No Kill in some respects has made headway in the bite reduction issue as well. there are other options, not already explored that do not single people out and are effective.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Zim, I so WISH Winnipeg would adopt Calgary's model!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

IWlover said:


> I guess we should just throw any stats out the window? After all, they're all just biased, meanie pit bull haters who are radical animal rights people who are happy to outlaw the owning of any pet whatsoever. Right?


Well since we're talking about stats, I'm still wondering what is your response to the point of breed-specific bite rates being a more meaningful measure of risk than raw data of number of bites per breed. Just to remind you, I'll repost this exerpt from the CDC report on dog bites/breeds:



> Ideally, breed-specific bite rates would be calculated to compare breeds and quantify the relative dangerousness of each breed. For example, 10 fatal attacks by Breed X relative to a population of 10,000 X's (1/1,000) implies a greater risk than 100 attacks by breed Y relative to a population of 1,000,000 Y's (0.1/1,000). Without consideration of the population sizes, Breed Y would be perceived to be the more dangerous breed on the basis of the number of fatalities.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I said this on another thread but it makes headlines when a pit hurts someone; when it's reported that the dogs breed was wrong, that it was not a pit but something else, is the retraction as big an article as the original one? I doubt it. I got bit by a dog when I was a toddler. It was a small poodle. As a child, my cousin had a dog that was DA. It was a pitbull. This was an amazing dog, he loved all us kids, loved all adults, other dogs, not so much. As an adult, working for a short time at a boarding kennel, the only dog who gave me issues was a Newfie.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The dog was culled in the pit..... If the owner didn't cull the dog, he had no choice......
> 
> You have no proof otherwise..... Unless of course you have spent time in a pit.
> 
> ...


I wish they would go back to lurking. Seriously, I've never seen so much BS spewed from one person. Seeing how it's not "late" anymore, I wonder if we're going to see some actual evidence?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Seriously, I've never seen so much BS spewed from one person. Seeing how it's not "late" anymore, I wonder if we're going to see some actual evidence?


I have, in fact i've seen worse right here on this board...


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> I have, in fact i've seen worse right here on this board...


You have a point. This reminds of that one member and their "main-stream dog owner" and "dog enthusiast" talk. I can't for the life of me remember his name.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Main-stream Mike? Oh he was CLASSIC!


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Main-stream Mike? Oh he was CLASSIC!


YES! He was ridiculous!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

He was indeed! I almost miss him though, haven't laughed at a member's posts quite that hard in a long time! This one's getting close though, I must say!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I was going to say, give this poster a chance here because they are making me say "Mike who?"


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> I wish they would go back to lurking. Seriously, I've never seen so much BS spewed from one person. Seeing how it's not "late" anymore, I wonder if we're going to see some actual evidence?


Yeah, seen BS before, but have to say, the stuff I've heard on this thread has made me want to BECOME a pit bull advocate, if just to run in the opposite direction of what I'm hearing the "lurker".


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## casey15 (Sep 24, 2011)

I'm very sorry to hear that, I can tell you without a doubt though that if your dog has bitten a person once he will do so again, I've had my puppy attacked by a boxer that lived in our neighborhood. The dog saw us walking on the other side of the street ran THROUGH their screen door(not glass) and started attacking my puppy. The dog then bit me, when I pulled it off. It sounds like you need to keep the dog inside with you, or tye him to a stake if you want to give him outside time(only when outside, I would go out to supervise him too). I hope you can resolve this.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I would NEVER tie a dog out & esp not a DA/HA dog, that's a no no IMO & a recipe for a bad situation.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

casey15 said:


> I'm very sorry to hear that, I can tell you without a doubt though that if your dog has bitten a person once he will do so again, I've had my puppy attacked by a boxer that lived in our neighborhood. The dog saw us walking on the other side of the street ran THROUGH their screen door(not glass) and started attacking my puppy. The dog then bit me, when I pulled it off. It sounds like you need to keep the dog inside with you, or tye him to a stake if you want to give him outside time(only when outside, I would go out to supervise him too). I hope you can resolve this.


More bad advice.

That boxer bit you in the heat of the moment. Somewhere in this thread you will see a post that DA is not synonymous with HA. So that story isn't even relevant to the OP's problem.

Putting this dog on a tether is just asking for more trouble.


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## casey15 (Sep 24, 2011)

I don't mean all the time, I just meant when your outside with your dog, this way the dog couldn't hurt any kids. I am against tying dogs out full time, I meant on a long one, while you were out there with them.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

casey15 said:


> I don't mean all the time, I just meant when your outside with your dog, this way the dog couldn't hurt any kids. I am against tying dogs out full time, I meant on a long one, while you were out there with them.


The thing is, a dog like this NEVER belongs a tie out. A determine dog will yank a tie out out no problem. A dog like that needs to be under control 100% of the time.


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