# Help my puppy is obnoxious (too playful/aggressive with other dogs)



## kinda (Oct 10, 2007)

I have a 5 month old Maltese/Poodle mix male named Dagger. Whenever he gets around a new dog he can't seem to contain his joy of having someone new to play with. He will get all up in their face and will constantly bother/chase them (I can't tell if he's nipping at their face or not, he might be). 

When he was 2 months old, my Aunt brought over her 1 year old Maltepoo (who outweighed my puppy by a good 10-12 pounds) and Dagger chased her dog around the house the entire visit (about two hours) and I could tell their dog was really getting sick of Dagger (he's very passive and relaxed but Dagger wouldn't let him be). Two months later they visited again and he chased their dog nonstop for about 2.5 hours until their dog finally had enough and would start to challenge Dagger and get him to back off. He also tried to hump their dog numerous times.

About 30 minutes ago while walking him, we came across a smaller (but friendly) dog and they both obviously wanted to meet each other. As soon as they got close enough Dagger got right in his face and the other dog yelped and backed away (a car then came down the road so we departed and I wasn't able to see anymore interaction between them). 

I'm starting to get worried that his lack of manners is going to become a real problem in the future. He is unable to stay calm and act normal around any new dog. He won't even try to sniff them or anything, he just wants to play play play. Does he just need to be around some dogs that won't take his crap or is there something I can do to stop him from being so obnoxious?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

There's a lot you should have done already. Why do you suppose your dog lacks manners?


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## kinda (Oct 10, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> There's a lot you should have done already. Why do you suppose your dog lacks manners?


What a helpful response. And you're a mod?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Perhaps if you answered the question help would follow. There's no magic wand on this side of my computer screen. And yes, I'm a mod, and unless you're a troll or a spammer, and you've read the forum rules, it won't affect you nor does it change the question I asked. I'm asking for insight, and your attitude suggests you're blaming the dog. That makes me grumpy. For that I apologize, but if it's any consolation, I am looking to help.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

Well I was wondering when was it that you got your pup. It seems that it may have been taken too early from its litter mates and mother, because he does lack manners with other dogs, See a pup will learn how to behave with other dogs during its time with its mother and litter mates.

The only suggestion i can give you is that you correct him when you see that the other dog is getting annoyed, and that you take him on longer walks, because he obviiously has energy to spare, take him on walks that will sap that energy from him (of course don't over exhaust him). Or get an older dog that will be able to teach the little pup some manners, and maybe that way he won't be too excited to see other dogs, because he has another on at home. 

Plz don't argue with curbside, curbside is really a good mod, but somtimes more info is needed.


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## kinda (Oct 10, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> Well I was wondering when was it that you got your pup. It seems that it may have been taken too early from its litter mates and mother, because he does lack manners with other dogs, See a pup will learn how to behave with other dogs during its time with its mother and litter mates.
> 
> The only suggestion i can give you is that you correct him when you see that the other dog is getting annoyed, and that you take him on longer walks, because he obviiously has energy to spare, take him on walks that will sap that energy from him (of course don't over exhaust him). Or get an older dog that will be able to teach the little pup some manners, and maybe that way he won't be too excited to see other dogs, because he has another on at home.
> 
> Plz don't argue with curbside, curbside is really a good mod, but somtimes more info is needed.


I got him a couple days shy of 9 weeks. After the last time my aunt's dog was here I realized I would probably have to intervene more strongly (perhaps using a leash and pausing all interaction) in the future. If they visit again I will try taking him for a good walk before they get here too. I think the problem is that he just gets overly excited to see another dog and can't turn it off, but I dunno why he messes with their face so much. 

I am not trying to argue, but saying "There's a lot you should have done already." isn't really necessary. I'm here because I wanted to learn how to correct what mistakes I've unknowingly let happen, not to get my nose rubbed in it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

kinda said:


> I am not trying to argue, but saying "There's a lot you should have done already." isn't really necessary. I'm here because I wanted to learn how to correct what mistakes I've unknowingly let happen, not to get my nose rubbed in it.


This is why I hate the written word sometimes. Again, I apologize, but that wasn't the sense I intended my statement to be. In the back of my mind I'm thinking you've done everything right, hence, "there's a lot you should have done." Thus my question, "why do you suppose your dog lacks manners?"

I'm asking if there's anything you understand about the dog that may have caused him to be "obnoxious?" Are you responsible for the dog?


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## kinda (Oct 10, 2007)

I agree, the written word can be a pain sometimes. I apologize too since I now see how you meant it.

I am responsible for him, yes, and I cannot think of any specific things that would cause his behavior. Also, I should state that the three occassions I mentioned were the only incidences of this behavior I noticed (and the only times he's had the chance to interact with other dogs). 

I know that human excitement is a catalyst for dog excitement, so I've always made sure that people act in a calmly manner around him. He sort of gets the same way around humans (except me since he's around me all the time), like when he gets to see my dad he used to always jump up at my dad's legs. Since then he's been trained to sit at the person's feet if he wants to get petted (albiet his excitement level is still way up there because he looks like a rocket ship that is about to blast off while he's sitting).


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

kinda said:


> I agree, the written word can be a pain sometimes. I apologize too since I now see how you meant it.
> 
> I am responsible for him, yes, and I cannot think of any specific things that would cause his behavior. Also, I should state that the three occassions I mentioned were the only incidences of this behavior I noticed *(and the only times he's had the chance to interact with other dogs). *
> 
> I know that human excitement is a catalyst for dog excitement, so I've always made sure that people act in a calmly manner around him. He sort of gets the same way around humans (except me since he's around me all the time), like when he gets to see my dad he used to always jump up at my dad's legs. Since then he's been trained to sit at the person's feet if he wants to get petted (albiet his excitement level is still way up there because he looks like a rocket ship that is about to blast off while he's sitting).


You just answered your question as to why he is bad mannered. You didn't socialize the dog with other dogs. But there is hope! Just keep bringing him around dogs you know that are friendly and let them work it out. The other dog will let him know when he has crossed the line by barking or pinning him down. After awhile he shall learn on how to act. My dog is the same as your aunts, he is more of a mellow dog and at obedience class we have puppy play time and instead of Snoopy barking at the other dog for humping him and biting him he just takes it and tries to get away.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

If these occasions are the only times he's been allowed to interact with other dogs, he's definitely under socialized. What is the possibility of enrolling him in a puppy class, where he can interact with other young pups off leash? 

Have you taught him any basic commands? Are you familiar with the concept of NILIF? How do you feed him? Has he been crate trained? Is there anyone else in the household who assists in the care of the dog? 

It's not so much a matter of needing to be around other dogs that won't put up with his behavior, he just needs to be around other dogs period. He needs to learn how to react to dogs of all temperaments, and sizes - a puppy class, which is a controlled environment, is the best way to do that. He may be a little old for a level one puppy class, but I'd recommend inquiring about what is available in your area ASAP.

In the meantime, I'd hand feed this dog. I would use his food as training aids, to reinforce behaviors he already knows, or to teach behaviors you want him to know. Make him earn every bit of kibble. You can also moisten and stuff kibble in a Kong, freeze it, and make him work for his food that way too. Excitement is two fold...excess energy and lack of impulse control, besides the fact he's a pup, but it's still the same. Help him dissipate the energy by making him work for his food, and control his impulses by getting the behaviors you want like sit, down, stay, off, and leave it. Does he know these commands? If so, how well?

Should he get another play session with a dog, do not let him play non stop. If he has the energy to play for 3 hours, that's great, but interupt him every minute or so and ask for a sit. Lure him if you need to, but get a sit. Then release him to go play again. This does a number of things. One, it will help keep his excitement level lower than if he's allowed to bounce off the walls endlessly. Two, he'll get into a habit of checking in with you, especially if you reward him for a good sit. Three, by allowing him to resume play you're reinforcing the previous behavior (sit). Do you have any friends with dogs? Perhaps they have a bullet-proof dog who would enjy a romp with an excitable pup? 

This is probably the most important bit of advice... If he's does something right, like settle down on a mat in his own, reward him with praise. Tell him how good of a puppy he is. If he's acting relaxed and sits for you, praise him for being a good dog. Look for behaviors he offers on his own to praise. Often, myself included, we see only the obnoxious behaviors, and don't respond to the all the good behaviors our dogs give us. This is backwards thinking, and for Elsa's sake, I hope to perfectly reverse that kind of thinking during her lifetime. I'm doing very well btw. 

I hope this makes up for any misunderstandings in the previous posts, and please don't hesitate to ask any more questions...no one, including me is looking to rub your nose in anything. And there are others who I'm sure would like to help too.


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## ninen (Oct 11, 2007)

My dog is pretty much the exact same way, plus he's like that even when we meet people. Cars and bikes are fine, but dogs and people just make him overly exited and he just can handle his exitement.

I have tried what you said about interupting the playing and have him sit down before, but i really cant find way to get him to stop playing. He's in such a exited state that it seems like he does not take anything that happens around him in. To get him to stop i pretty much gotta wait untill hes close enough and try to catch his collar and almost wressle him down.

I've been with him to puppyclass and hes got to meet alot of dogs(i think), but he does that same this as kindas dog. He does not sniff or do any other greeting gestures of what i can se. He just goes ahead to the playing part weather the other dog whants or not.

Maybe is like you say that hes got to much energy. I go out with him 2-3 times a day, but i really cant make any longer walks just because he pulles the leash so much, my arms are getting to tired.

About the thing you said about praise him when he gets calm, i dont really get it. That makes him get exited again doesnt it?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

ninen said:


> I have tried what you said about interupting the playing and have him sit down before, but i really cant find way to get him to stop playing. He's in such a exited state that it seems like he does not take anything that happens around him in. To get him to stop i pretty much gotta wait untill hes close enough and try to catch his collar and almost wressle him down.


If the pup is in a play session, have him drag a lead long enough the you can step on it. Get his attention with a squeeky toy, or act weird (which I prefer), and call his name when he looks at you. If he ignores you, step on his lead and take him away from the play session, far enough away where you can have his undivided attention, and ask for a sit...lure him if you need to. Then let him go play again. Anytime the distraction is too much, add distance from the distraction. With time, consistencey, and repetition you'll be able to close down on the distance. 



> I've been with him to puppyclass and hes got to meet alot of dogs(i think), but he does that same this as kindas dog. He does not sniff or do any other greeting gestures of what i can se. He just goes ahead to the playing part weather the other dog whants or not.


How old is your dog? 



> Maybe is like you say that hes got to much energy. I go out with him 2-3 times a day, but i really cant make any longer walks just because he pulles the leash so much, my arms are getting to tired.


How big is your dog? 



> About the thing you said about praise him when he gets calm, i dont really get it. That makes him get exited again doesnt it?


Perhaps he will get excited, but look at what you're doing, you're rewarding the previous behavior...calm behavior. The more you reinforce it, the more likely it will repeat the behavior. So reward him, let him get excited, but when he reaches a level you don't appreciate, go back to ignoring him. Reward good behaviors, ignore inappropriate behaviors...this is the fundamentals of learning theory, and no different than what you're doing here. What makes it challenging is when people give up and try something else too quickly. You have to give it time, you have to be consistent, and you have to record in you mind how long it took your dog to settle down, one day from the next. If you find 3 opportunites to praise your dog on Monday for voluntary behavior, and 5 opportunities on the next Monday, clearly it's working...keep going. If however, the number is always a 3 or below one week to the next, you'll have to try and find ways to improve your communication.


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Ella is sort of the same way. She is only 4 months though so I take it as a "puppy thing". I socialize her as much as I can and am going to start obedience classes in the very near future. I am glad you started this thread because I just learned a lot from Curbside's post.


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## melvs (Aug 21, 2007)

Ella'sMom said:


> Ella is sort of the same way. She is only 4 months though so I take it as a "puppy thing". I socialize her as much as I can and am going to start obedience classes in the very near future. I am glad you started this thread because I just learned a lot from Curbside's post.


Same here w/ Lilly (just 2 weeks older than Ella) - we plan on getting her into classes. She gets really excited when she sees children or other dogs even though she's been around both since she was born. So, in my dog's case anyway - I decided all the socialization in the world won't change her behavior alone. Training is a big part, too. And rewarding her for the times she's sitting quietly or just being a "good girl" has definitely helped overall. 

Training can get very frustrating and sometimes, for me anyway, I have to stand back and look at the bigger picture and reflect, outside of "that exact moment". This "bigger picture" reminds me how far we've come and how much *we've both *learned.


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## minischnauzer (Apr 23, 2007)

I think we should start with the premise that EVERYONE can handle their excitement, including your dog, but sometimes some personalities need more "help" with controlling themselves than others... 

You say that you can't take him on longer walks because he pulls on the leash too much... and you also complain of his overexcitement and energetic nature. From my standpoint, the first step you need to undertake is to make sure your dog knows how to walk on a leash, so that you can THEN tackle the issue of excessive energy, and proceed from there. Also, if you can't control your dog ON the leash - you shouldn't let him OFF the leash because you are responsible for him.

As far as the leash is concerned, I am betting your dog either wears a harness or a regular band around his neck... Harnesses are the healthiest type of dog lead but they do not work for animals that have not been taught "leash manners" as it allows them to use all of their strength (the chest is a pulling power source to push against you). The neck band does nothing to restrain your dog from trying to push against you but, in turn, constricts his airway, which may cause permanent damage to his throat. 

I will NEVER EVER recommend anyone to use any kind of chain with spikes on the inside to try and stop a dog from pulling, but, in your case, I think you should try a choke chain FOR A LIMITED TIME in the following way:

When you first put it on and it constricts as your dog pulls, (s)he will act like she's being strangled by rotating her head in every direction possible and trying to suffocate herself. You have to remain calm. Let him/her pull and try to wriggle out until they realize that they can't. At this point there will be a second or two in which they'll stop moving. KEEP YOUR HANDS STILL AND LET HIM FIGHT IT OUT. ONLY AT THIS POINT - when he stops moving - can you move: you can fall to your knees (or do whatever you do) and kiss them all over and give them a treat to make sure they KNOW that what they JUST did was good. (i.e. standing still). This lesson may take a while. Don't start walking yet - you first have to learn to stand still together.

When your dog gets used to the choke chain, you can try walking... by "trying" I don't mean doing the exact same thing you were doing before - allowing your arm to dangle (and be ripped from the shoulder blade) while your dog goes where he wants to. You are the one walking HIM, remember that.

First of all, buy a short fabric leash. Give him about a foot of space -- so that he can walk NEXT to your leg but not go any further. If (s)he tries to pull, and AS SOON AS THAT HAPPENS (because it will - it's a learned behavior which you've allowed to happen and thereby reinforced for a long time) you should stop moving. STOP DEAD IN YOUR TRACKS and don't move - don't allow your arm to follow your dog but keep it CLOSELY BY YOUR SIDE. He will again struggle and you will again ignore him until he stops moving. WHEN HE STOPS MOVING tell him to sit. AFTER he sits, tell him what a good boy/girl (s)he is, pet him, do whatever, then wait a few seconds and start walking again... 

You will repeat this annoying process for at least a week... You'll stop probably at every step of the way at EACH walk and get annoyed as hell but you, yourself, complain of arm pain - and it's not healthy for your dog to rip at his throat with the collar, either, so invest in both of your futures. Some dogs take longer than others but you have to make sure your dog knows that, even outside, YOU are in control of him and he has to listen to you no matter what exciting thing is going on. (Hence, the sitting - don't move until he does what you want him to, then praise him, then wait, and LET him move on YOUR time.) 

I'm not telling you to be Hitler, but you have to be able to control your animal for many reasons before you should allow him to play with others, even if he's not aggressive. 

The biggest problems with undersocialized dogs is that they don't know the meaning of "no" when other dogs say so, and then get beaten up when they push the line too far and the owners cradle them in their arms, carry them away, and reinforce the fear that has just developed. Once your dog learns to walk, and (most importantly) to listen to you NO MATTER WHAT - let him off the leash but in places where there are no distractions. Try to find a park with no dogs. Let him sniff, run around, but call him back - reinforce that even when he's OFF the leash he still has to listen to you. Once you are certain he listens to you with no distractions, it's time to go back to the dog park. Make sure to start with one or two dogs, not a whole pack, and again make sure he listens to you when he's there. Socialization takes a while and, sometimes, it's natural for older dogs to show younger/less "socialized" ones the ropes of who's who on the hierarchy by pinning them down with lots of noise and squeeling on the other end. Unless your dog is seriously injured, try not to interfere -- it'll be worse if you teach him to fear other dogs by running to him every time. I know it hurts but we all learn as children on the playground who we can mess with and how far we can go. 

Get rid of the choke chain as soon as you feel comfortable that he has stopped pulling. 

I also recommend a water sprayer - you can buy it in the travel section of any target - to get your dogs attention in a situation that he's doing something bad. For example, my dog likes to bark (little dog = yapper). Every time he does it at an inappropriate time, I spray him with a jet of water -- it's not hard enough to hurt but shocks him into stopping doing whatever it is that he's doing that you don't want him to, and then I praise him IN THAT SECOND that he does what I want (stays silent). In your case, if your dog jumps on children - spray him on his head (not in the eyes, of course) and say a stern "no". Most dogs are too surprised to continue doing whatever it was they were just doing and then you get to tell them how wonderful they are. 

The spray method also works for dogs that are aggressive towards others when on the leash -- it shocks them into stopping and allows you to regain control by reinforcing the POSITIVE instead of bearing the negative. 

Also, I doubt I need to even say this but never ever hit or physically punish your dog as that does nothing but create anxiety and agression and in an already excited dog, that's the least that you need. Frankly, I don't think it should be done at all for every reason, not the least of which is that it's demeaning and useless when other methods are available.

I hope that you can use at least some of this advice to help both of you enjoy his walks more.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

> The neck band does nothing to restrain your dog from trying to push against you but, in turn, constricts his airway, which may cause permanent damage to his throat.
> 
> 
> I think you should try a choke chain


 Mini, isn’t choke synonymous with constricting the airway? How are the constrictions different from a dog pulling on a buckled collar and a dog pulling on a choke chain? Both are being misused at this point. 



> (s)he will act like she's being strangled by rotating her head in every direction possible and trying to suffocate herself. You have to remain calm. Let him/her pull and try to wriggle out until they realize that they can't.


 And the dog that doesn’t suppress the behavior, what’s done then? These dogs do exist by the way. 

Buckled collars are for safety, they aren’t used to “mimic” wolf bites, or to punish the preceding behavior. If the dog is pulling with a buckled collar, the dog simply hasn’t learned how to walk with a loose leash. And the starting point for that lesson is in the owner’s home, without a leash, and a minimum number of distractions. Not by allowing the dog to suffocate itself with a choke chain. Choke chains have their place, but not here IMO. 



> Once your dog learns to walk, and (most importantly) to listen to you NO MATTER WHAT - let him off the leash but in places where there are no distractions.


 I do not recommend this. Loose leash walking is not a predictor for recall, nor do places with “no” distractions exist. Unless your dog has been taught a reliable recall, it should never be off leash in public. It’s not clear but I’m assuming Mini meant a public park. Plus, many jurisdictions have laws against dogs being off lead. 



> Try to find a park with no dogs. Let him sniff, run around, but call him back - reinforce that even when he's OFF the leash he still has to listen to you.


 How do you propose one should reinforce listening? 



> I also recommend a water sprayer - you can buy it in the travel section of any target - to get your dogs attention in a situation that he's doing something bad. For example, my dog likes to bark (little dog = yapper). Every time he does it at an inappropriate time, I spray him with a jet of water -- it's not hard enough to hurt but shocks him into stopping doing whatever it is that he's doing that you don't want him to, and then I praise him IN THAT SECOND that he does what I want (stays silent). In your case, if your dog jumps on children - spray him on his head (not in the eyes, of course) and say a stern "no". Most dogs are too surprised to continue doing whatever it was they were just doing and then you get to tell them how wonderful they are.


 This is backwards learning theory. The dog won’t learn what the cue “no” means if the punishment precedes it. To condition the cue, you have to give it before the consequence. Do you say “sit” after your dog’s butt hits the ground? Spraying the dog when he jumps on a child is teaching the dog children = punishment. And you’re not too far from the child being bitten, IMO. 

The “surprise” you’re describing is fear, so the question now becomes, is fear of owner or child appropriate? Never, certainly not in this case. I would recommend the dog be taught a reliable sit, and ask for a sit before greeting the child. If the dog is too excited to respond to the cue, the child is too distracting and more work needs to be done around children using operant conditioning. 



> The spray method also works for dogs that are aggressive towards others when on the leash.


 This isn’t true either. If the reaction is the result of an emotional response, punishing the dog will actually make the situation worse. And if you choose to fight against Pavlov, the owner will be on the loosing end every time.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

I have to agree with Curbside Prophet. Choke chains are very dangerous. If your dog is pulling hard enough to make your arm sore a choke chain frankly will not work. And you run the risk of seroiusly injuring your dog. The choke does constrict the airway. The dog could suffocate or will most likely damage their throat. This could lead to expensive surgury and in some cases a dead dog.

I know many people don't like pinch collars. I have nothing agianst them if used correctly. They are soooo much safer than a choke chain. 

But you don't need a pinch to leash train. I would start with a head Halti collar. They make it impossible for the dog to pull as the dog will have no leverage. Bring really good treats with you and go to a park. Don't walk straight, but make turns. Turn left, turn right, walk in circles. Keep the dog guessinf on what you will do next. Walk the dog on a loose 6ft lead. Give him the full 6 feet. And keep the dogs attention with the treats. 

Every time he follows you into a turn give the dog a treat. Every time the dog stops paying attention to your walking change direction. Treat the dog agian when he returns to your side. He needs to learn that you choose which direction you are walking. This is related to how Curbside Prophet trains dogs. Ignore the bad behavoir, but praise the good. The dog will learn that following you leads to fun and tasty treats. 

After a few walks like this, you can try walking straight with the halti. If with dog gets distracted from you turn the dog agian. For example, if your dog tries to walk towards another dog and leave you behind then turn. Force him to remember that you are there. He will learn to watch you. Once he learns to watch you, then you can use a regular collar and see if the dog still pulls. But a hati can be used forver if the dog needs it. 

After a while make the leash longer. Go from 6 feet to 12 feet then to 30 feet. The dog needs to always return to you when called. If he does not return make a turn. He needs to know where you are and what you are doing at all times.


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## minischnauzer (Apr 23, 2007)

Don't I feel duly chastised!! 

The difference between a choke chain's method of constricting an airway and the way a collar does it is that the choke chain allows you to make it stop (you stop, forcing the dog to stop moving, then you tell him to sit, and this eases the pressure) while a collar will allow the dog to push against it (and choke itself) for the duration of the walk. If you stop moving (with a choke chain) the moment the dog pulls (AND you have the short leash) the dog will be forced to stop and then if you tell it to sit, and it follows your command (as described above) = no more pressure on the throat. Once you do it for a few walks, your dog will learn to walk without pulling... And AS I NOTED IN MY POST, you can get rid of the choke chain which is unhealthy in the long run.

Oh, and by the way - it WILL calm down even if it's only for a second because dogs, like most creatures, will look for a way out - if one way doesn't work, they start looking for another... and while they're thinking of another (even if it's for a split second) they stop moving. Hence, your split-second opportunity to praise your dog for being still.... (Since I've never actually met a crazy dog, and the definition of crazy is doing the same thing and expecting a different result, I'm pretty convinced that this proof is just like one of those LSAT questions where if A is not B, and B is C, then A is not C... but it's been a while and I forgot how it works.)

As far as "guaranteed" "recall" is concerned -- I didn't address it in my already lenghty post but I assumed it was obvious that one has to be certain that a dog will come back before letting it off... The poster I was responding to seemed to imply that the dog was playing with others so I assumed she/he was already letting their dog off to play so I AGAIN assumed they had been certain it wouldn't run away. Therefore, I am DULY reprimanded for not having mentioned that earlier... and for assuming what must've not been as obvious to you as it was to me.

Now, if you drag statutory laws into this (I'm a lawyer; this is my field), yes, it's basically a fact that all jursidictions have leash laws and that when outside the perimeter of your own fenced yard, your dog is required to be on the leash at all times. SOME cities have park areas where dogs are allowed to be off the leash in specially designated fenced areas but, otherwise, in all public parks "leash law" is the law... However, I can bet money on the fact that even a law abiding citizen such as yourself breaks the law every once in a while (ever speed? really? come on, I won't tell...) and, therefore, letting a dog off the leash in a place that is not full of children/bikes/people/cars (i.e. distractions) - such as a public park early in the morning IS precisely what I was implying, having ignored the statutory provision and in the hopes that in the UNLIKELY chance you happen to meet a policeman at such a place "with no distractions," he will have better things to do than to give you a $25 ticket. Shame on me for promoting lawlessness... again, duly chastised! (tsk tsk tsk on me) 

Now, when you get to the part about "reinforcing listening" you're just being snide. You reinforce "listening" every time your dog "listens" by doing what you ask it to do. "Sit" (dog sits - you give it a cookie) = you just reinforced listening. 

As for the "backwards" theory of spraying - I apologize. I'm new here and haven't seen your CV which described your credentials at being a "forward" theorist on dog behavior... You really should forward it to me sometime. We might even use you as an expert on the stand if the issue ever comes up... I'm sure your expertise in this field is so profound that no one could ever disagree and we'd win with a motion for a directed verdict. And we like winning.

While we're on the topic of behaviorism theory (and Pavlov) - it APPEARED to me (unlearned in the ways of "forward" dog training, unlike you) that the previous attempts at "cues" such as "no" by the owner have been ineffective as the dog in question has been ignoring the owner completely... hence, the need for the owner to grab the dog's attention. 

Spraying water at a dog does NOT create fear (unless the dog in question has a fear of water... I also failed to add that precaution, leaving obvious loopholes for you to cover) but causes it to be surprised at this "new" thing which has suddenly happened. For example, water coming out of nowhere doesn't scare my dog - it makes it look for the source. (This happens only after my dog "happens" to ignore my "cue" of "no" when he wants to bark at someone...) While it's looking for the source, it's not doing what I don't want it to do... And then I praise him for being quiet. So then the question does NOT become whether or not fear is appropriate but whether or not your audio cue is what this person needs to get the dog's attention when the owner needs it since, as the poster described, it wasn't working too well to begin with (hence the problem we're all here trying to amicably help her/him resolve). 

I also object to a water spray being called a "punishment" as, again, I'm not advocating a dunk in a lake or even a water-gun-strength sprayer but a mist of water which, the last time I checked, could even be quite pleasant on a hot day... However, if the water sprayer is so backwards that it's last season and I used it after Labor Day, feel free to wave a cookie in his face, squeak a toy, or do anything else to get your dogs attention to you and not on the object that you're trying to avoid... after your audio cue has been ignored, of course. (We wouldn't want to offend Pavlov who, in fact, USED audio cues - the ringing of the bell - to influence behavior - salivation.) 

As for aggression - you again start your "response" with the assumption that water is a punishment, which I obviously disagree with. And, since it's obviously not a fact that a water spray is a punishment, the situation may not necessarily become worse (and it has not in my experience with this backwards method) but indeed better as the dogs suddenly stop growling and instead look at you with a puzzled expression on their faces... ears cocked.... Which is kinda cute actually. And THAT, as far as I am concerned, is the ultimate win-win. And, again, we like to win.

(But really, send me your resume - I'd be delighted it to read it.)


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

Well, maybe I'm not seeing the whole story here, but I'm not convinced that there is a huge problem here. Yes, manners need to be taught and reinforced or there will be a problem, so it's good to make sure you're learning ways to teach manners. However, puppies are puppies and I would not discount the benefits that a little maturity can bring.



> When he was 2 months old, my Aunt brought over her 1 year old Maltepoo (who outweighed my puppy by a good 10-12 pounds) and Dagger chased her dog around the house the entire visit (about two hours) and I could tell their dog was really getting sick of Dagger (he's very passive and relaxed but Dagger wouldn't let him be). Two months later they visited again and he chased their dog nonstop for about 2.5 hours until their dog finally had enough and would start to challenge Dagger and get him to back off.


Never underestimate the power of both forgiving older dogs and dogs who have had enough. It's always been great when other dogs will put up with Zoe's puppy antics for awhile so she can burn off steam, but she had a real thing for chewing ears when she was a little younger (it appears to be a retriever puppy sort of thing, as all the labs and goldens in her puppy class would do the same thing). While it was fine for puppies, we met many older dogs who would simply give a gruff bark so she learned to stop. Dogs can teach dogs what inappropriate play is, and it sounds like your pup needs some play time with a dog who is a little more willing to stand up for him/herself.



> He also tried to hump their dog numerous times.


This might be more of a concern to me, but I'm not at all experienced in what to do about it. Try doing a search for threads on hump or humping and see what others have said.



> I'm starting to get worried that his lack of manners is going to become a real problem in the future. He is unable to stay calm and act normal around any new dog. He won't even try to sniff them or anything, he just wants to play play play.


Again, I see a puppy, especially a not so well socialized one. I know smaller dogs tend to mature more quickly than larger ones, but there is a reason why lots of competitive obedience trainers don't even want to see goldens until they are 3 years old!! Some dogs tend to be more excited than others, and goldens are frequently the excited ones because they tend to be high energy and very sociable. I do not know much about maltese or poodles, but whether or not it's a characteristic of either breed, it appears to be a characteristic of your dog.



> Does he just need to be around some dogs that won't take his crap or is there something I can do to stop him from being so obnoxious?


My suggestions (based on what we have done with Zoe).
1. Get him in a day care. Even one day a week will make a difference. Zoe's biggest problem at first was that she could not settle down ever if there was another dog around, but a few times of going to day care all day and she learned to settle down and even take a nap around lots of other dogs if she was tired enough.
2. Work on making him sit before he meets another dog (you'll need really really REALLY good treats for this--because your dog sounds like Zoe, and most treats are just not as good as another dog!!). She is not allowed to greet another dog, enter day care, enter the dog park, go off-leash at the park, etc. until she sits and looks at me for at least 5 seconds (5 seconds can seem like an eternity for a young puppy). This way he starts to learn that obeying you and settling down, even for a second, is a requirement if he wants to play with other dogs.
3. If you haven't done a puppy kindergarten or basic manners class, do so. You'll learn ways to capture your dogs attention and your dog will also learn to obey you around other dogs. Zoe was the youngest in her puppy K class and it was often very difficult to control her, because she only wanted to play. However, when all the dogs would be working on training with their owners, she eventually realized she couldn't play then and learned to do the same.
4. Be very careful about the dogs you socialize with. That's why I suggest a class or a day care with someone who is qualified and knows a lot about reading dog behavior. With such a small dog, you really don't want another dog to "not put up" with him because that could bring disastrous results. As I said before, the corrections of an older dog can be very useful, but you need to know and trust that older dog before you let your pup into that situation.
5. Get more exercise for the little guy. Zoe still perks up around other dogs even when she's tired, but she is much, MUCH more controllable when she's had enough exercise.
6. Most importantly--don't expect instantaneous results. Not only does all training take time, but I still firmly believe that your pup is young and still may outgrow much of his excitedness. These tactics were very slow-going for us (especially the "sit" before meeting another dog), but Zoe is catching on and while she still gets excited and LOVES to play with other dogs, we can get her to settle down or walk past another dog if we need her to. She has also naturally started playing in more adult ways and not being such an annoying puppy, which I believe is a combination of "maturity" (as mature as a 6.5 month old golden retriever can be) and going to day care (she now goes 3-4 times a week because we are in a much busier time than we were over the summer).

Good luck, and I hope some of the suggestions people have given you will help. Some of my thoughts are pretty simple to try out and be consistent with (sitting before meeting a dog, for example), and will hopefully bring at least a bit of result within a couple of weeks from starting it. I'm still hoping that this is mostly puppy behavior and that you can get it under control without it escalating into anything more serious.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Thank you for responding Mini. I was going to resume this discussion on a separate thread, however, I’m still of the mindset that this IS a discussion, and it may benefit the OP. 


minischnauzer said:


> Don't I feel duly chastised!!


Chastised? I think even you know that this description wouldn’t fly in court. Was I being critical? Absolutely, however, this is a discussion forum and I had no intent on raising your hackles. If I did I apologize…I didn’t know my words could be aversive.


> = no more pressure on the throat.


So are you saying with a loose leash a buckled collar continues to apply pressure? If so, are you aware of any studies on this? Where may I find them? Or am I misunderstanding the picture you’re trying to paint? Because as I see it our target behavior is the loose leash, is it not? If so, I think in both cases the pressure would be removed as the dog sat.


> And AS I NOTED IN MY POST, you can get rid of the choke chain which is unhealthy in the long run.


Why would a choke chain be unhealthy? If it’s unhealthy in the long run, why would I chose this tool in the first place? How would I know when the tool is unhealthy? After 1 use, 2 uses, 10 years? 


> Hence, your split-second opportunity to praise your dog for being still.... (Since I've never actually met a crazy dog, and the definition of crazy is doing the same thing and expecting a different result...


I’m not sure what you are referring to here. Are you saying after a bout of struggle from being on a choke chain, you’re looking for a timed opportunity to praise? By your definition of crazy, I’ve met many “crazy” dogs. In fact, I can hear my neighbor’s dog now, barking for attention. This dog barks non-stop (almost literally) when his owners are home. But this dog doesn’t get the attention he needs, so, by your definition he would be crazy?


> As far as "guaranteed" "recall" is concerned -- I didn't address it in my already lenghty post but I assumed it was obvious...and for assuming what must've not been as obvious to you as it was to me.


Please don’t misquote me. “Guaranteed” is your word and not the same as “reliable”. A guarantee can only be predicted in the absence of failure. Nothing in dog training, except the possibility of failure can be guaranteed. Reliability, however, can be predicted when the behavior is tested. And yes, your assumptions are not obvious to me, however, my criticism was not a reprimand. It was an attempt to be clear on what was being suggested. 


> However, I can bet money on the fact that even a law abiding citizen such as yourself breaks the law every once in a while (ever speed? really? come on, I won't tell...) and, therefore, letting a dog off the leash in a place that is not full of children/bikes/people/cars (i.e. distractions) - such as a public park early in the morning IS precisely what I was implying, having ignored the statutory provision and in the hopes that in the UNLIKELY chance you happen to meet a policeman at such a place "with no distractions," he will have better things to do than to give you a $25 ticket. Shame on me for promoting lawlessness... again, duly chastised! (tsk tsk tsk on me)


Again, I apologize for ruffling your feathers as I do not understand what this has to do with the facts. Have you been to a public park at 5:AM? I tend to agree that your chances of running into an officer at that early of an hour is unlikely, but surely you’re not suggesting it’s free of distractions? Where do you live such that nocturnal creatures don’t exist? I guess my neighbor’s cat, who frequents my local park at that hour must be out of sorts...not to mention the bobcats that are known to frequent my park at this hour.


> Now, when you get to the part about "reinforcing listening" you're just being snide. You reinforce "listening" every time your dog "listens" by doing what you ask it to do. "Sit" (dog sits - you give it a cookie) = you just reinforced listening.


Actually, I believe the dog is already capable of listening, unless he was born deaf. In you’re example, you’re reinforcing sitting, not listening.


> As for the "backwards" theory of spraying - I apologize. I'm new here and haven't seen your CV which described your credentials at being a "forward" theorist on dog behavior... You really should forward it to me sometime.


Now who’s being snide? I’m not certain you could afford my services.


> While we're on the topic of behaviorism theory (and Pavlov) - it APPEARED to me (unlearned in the ways of "forward" dog training, unlike you) that the previous attempts at "cues" such as "no" by the owner have been ineffective as the dog in question has been ignoring the owner completely... hence, the need for the owner to grab the dog's attention.


Perhaps I missed it but, I don’t recall anywhere where the OP described a training protocol.


> Spraying water at a dog does NOT create fear...


What do you observe (in the dog) that illustrates that he is not fearful of the sprayed water? What is it about "surprise" that says it's not fear?


> I also object to a water spray being called a "punishment" as, again, I'm not advocating a dunk in a lake or even a water-gun-strength sprayer but a mist of water which, the last time I checked, could even be quite pleasant on a hot day...


Ah!, so the spray of water is an attention getter. You had no intent on reducing the frequency of the previous behavior with the spray. You’re merely attempting to divide continued training and proof of behavior. 


> However, if the water sprayer is so backwards that it's last season and I used it after Labor Day, feel free to wave a cookie in his face, squeak a toy, or do anything else to get your dogs attention to you and not on the object that you're trying to avoid... after your audio cue has been ignored, of course. (We wouldn't want to offend Pavlov who, in fact, USED audio cues - the ringing of the bell - to influence behavior - salivation.)


And I’m afraid you’ve missed my Pavlovian reference. Allow me to clarify this for you. The spray of water isn’t the antecedent in the dog-jumping-on-child scenario. The antecedent is the child. And if you’re saying we should pair a reflexive response (the unconditioned stimulus) like “surprise," as you call it (biting is also a reflexive response), with the neutral stimulus (the conditioned stimulus – the child), I don’t know if you’re offending Pavlov, but you sure will be offending many parents with dogs. However you define “surprise”, that’s not a behavior I want associated with my dog and children. 


> As for aggression - you again start your "response" with the assumption that water is a punishment, which I obviously disagree with. And, since it's obviously not a fact that a water spray is a punishment, the situation may not necessarily become worse (and it has not in my experience with this backwards method) but indeed better as the dogs suddenly stop growling


I believe you’re the one defining punishment here. I find this a bit unfair. Do you “feel” for your dog? Are you suggesting your senses are more acute than your dog’s? Punishment is defined by the dog, not by you. We observe the effectiveness of an aversive by testing it. If you’re saying spraying the dog in the face reduces the behavior you’re trying to avoid, yes, by definition spraying the dog with water is a punishment. If it doesn’t reduce the previous behavior, I would agree that it’s not a punishment…it’s more likely annoying, but now I’m just being anthropomorphic like you.


> (But really, send me your resume - I'd be delighted it to read it.)


You’ll have to get in line, just like everyone else.


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## minischnauzer (Apr 23, 2007)

I started typing out my response but then held on to the delete button for a while... 

You obviously think you've reached the pinnacle of learning when it comes to animal behaviorism. I obviously think you're full of... um... learning. So, I'm going to bow out of this worthwhile discussion and do the things that really need doing while allowing for the recommendations from the master to take precedence without opposition. (Borrowing this logical strand only from you: your words have been my punishment, by definition, because I've reduced my previous behavior...) And it's too bad about us being unable to use your expertise... (Sigh) I guess we'll just have to look for more "expert" experts elsewhere - if they exist, of course.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Curbside Prophet, you must be one those people that you either hate or love. You are defiantly an acquired taste. LOL If I was you minischnauzer, I would just get used to it. CP is constantly ruffling feathers on this site. It seems to be his job here. 

I will try to keep my post short and sweet, due to the hours of reading I have already put into this tread.



> Maybe is like you say that he’s got to much energy. I go out with him 2-3 times a day, but i really cant make any longer walks just because he pulles the leash so much, my arms are getting to tired.


I have a now 15 month Doberman puppy. During the first 10 months he practically ruined my life. He wasn't getting the proper outlets for his energy. I think the daycare is a great idea if you really research it. I don't trust most people with my dogs. 

You need to allow the dog a proper time to play and a proper time to be calm. My dogs want to be inside with me. This is way we quickly had to learn that playtime is OUTSIDE. If you run in my house you will get kicked out. LOL But this requires me to be fair to them. They get 30min of exercise in the morning and an hour at night. This is interactive with me. It allows includes walking and offleash running. My dogs have great recall. Unless you can say this you need to stick with very long walks and fetch in the backyard. 

The Halti will be a miracle worker for the pulling. Sorry minischnauzer, but with a dog pulling that much I honestly don't see a choke chain working. The dog will still be able to get to much leverage and could get very injured in the process of this pulling. I train with pinch collars for this reason. Choke chains are just not safe with most large dogs, and I would NEVER train a dog not to pull with a choke chain. I also just don’t like the feel of an obedience choke chain. They are so thick that the choke action is not always as smooth as I want. You could use it to train all other forms of obedience, just not to discourage serious pullers. 
I would also suggest an obedience class asap. It is the best way to relax a dog around other dogs. Other dogs are the best and most important distraction in any training program. So make sure it is a group class. 
I think you will notice a large amount of change if you just take the dog out more. Take him walking and to the park. Only allow your dog to greet other dog’s politely. Make him sit first. I would also start using NILF as soon as possible. The dog needs to learn work for anything and everything.

I know how you feel. Some days you almost hate your dog because of these problems. But it is not the dog's fault; he is doing what comes naturally to him. It is your job to train and guide his behavior. But remember the only way you will have a truly calm dog is if he gets good and healthy outlets for the excess energy.

I hope that helps. That was a little longer than expected.


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## minischnauzer (Apr 23, 2007)

It's been quite some time since I wrote that thread and, as it turns out, I've eaten my own words... and I fully/completely admit that the choke chain isn't the best thing by far. I stand corrected!

In short, we got our youngest about two months ago and for the first few weeks, he was pretty much the craziest dog I've ever SEEN, much less had... (The kid lived in a kennel in CA with other dogs for the first four months of his life, so city life was "exciting," to put it mildly.) Apart from crazy, at four months old he was manageable so we used a harness (not collar - still think it's bad for the throat) and just stopped moving any time he wanted to chase cars or runners until he sat and then gave him permission to move, so he outgrew the pulling. However, the older ones were thrown into turmoil and started to pull and ignore all commands... until we got the gentle leader. Not to say that they liked it - they did the whole "epileptic fit"/shake my head/claw at my face thing for about 2-3 days until they finally calmed down. Peace has been restored and the choke chain DID NOT do it! Frankly, I think the head harness is the most humane way to curb the pulling. I used to think it looked cruel but it really worked... and the best part is that after using it for no more than two weeks, we put them away for good and have gone back to the harnesses for all. And we can walk without having our shoulders pulled from the sockets.

SOOOOOOOOO, I just wanted to write this mea culpa and say that I take it all back. All the best dear pet-owners!


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

I am so glad I found this post! I will need to take more time to read it all but my situation is similar except that my "puppy" is about 15 mos old (I got her about 5 weeks ago) and has no manners with my dogs. I have had to intervene many times (and pen her up when it's "chewy" time, just to give the other dogs a break. Daja doesn't understand that when the dogs snap they are NOT always playing. Butch gave it to her the other day and while I separated them, I did fuss at her a bit but told Butch it was ok (he gets into scrapes on occasion at the dog park that are his fault so I scold him).

I hope the OP reads all of this and tries it on her pup. At a few months old, the pup has a lot of learning to do, from her and other dogs.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

My dog has the same excitement for other dogs. It is getting better now that he is older. I hope with more time and training he will be calmer around other dogs. 
As for the pulling, I think you got enought advice on that but I didn't see anyone talk about lightly jogging with your dog. That is what I do when I know he is full of energy. I start off the walk by jogging and it really helps. At the park we had already gone around the trail 3 times when we came across a doberman with his owner. And we were able to stand there and talk for a while and both dogs were not even interested in each other cause they were both so tired. 
And sometimes when my dog starts walking ahead of me I take it as a cue to start running. I need the exercise and I guess he knows I do too-haha. And of course I cue him to run too.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Shoot, I've been waiting for 8 months now for Chloe to get better around other dogs and it hasn't happened. I now know how to tell the difference between her "play" and her "aggression", but her "play" is so annoying I don't know how any dog puts up with it! She is a brat and when she doesn't get her way she gets snappy. She knows the "play" signals, but she doesn't seem to understand the "stop" signals!

We HAVE been getting much better with her leash reactivity, although she is still barrier aggressive (fencing). *sigh* Chloe as so many issues I wonder sometimes what I've done wrong.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

> She knows the "play" signals, but she doesn't seem to understand the "stop" signals!


We have a similar problem. Our 8.5 month old pup, Libby, just doesn't seem to understand when a dog doesn't want to play. 

Actually, this only seems to be a problem when the dog is smaller or the same size as her, as larger dogs are able to get their point across just fine. The dogs that she doesn't get along with resort to barking at her to tell her off, and that seems to entice her to play more. Larger dogs seem to use more body language, and she appears to understand that loud and clear!


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Lloyd is one of those dogs who tends to ignore stopping signals. He wants to play and keep on playing. I use time outs and have gotten him to the point where I only need to say his name for him to remember his manners. I kept him on a long line and I studied up on dog behavior/calming signals and when I noticed the other dogs giving them and Lloyd ignoring them, if Lloyd continued to ignore them and the other dogs were unwilling to enforce them then I would pull him away and put him in a downstay for 5 minutes or so. Now he will often stop when the other dogs get to the more obvious signals (like snapping at him when he doesn't stop) where as before even them snapping at him didn't work. He knows if he doesn't respect them I will put him in a time out.


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## Maltipoo143 (Mar 29, 2021)

kinda said:


> I have a 5 month old Maltese/Poodle mix male named Dagger. Whenever he gets around a new dog he can't seem to contain his joy of having someone new to play with. He will get all up in their face and will constantly bother/chase them (I can't tell if he's nipping at their face or not, he might be).
> 
> When he was 2 months old, my Aunt brought over her 1 year old Maltepoo (who outweighed my puppy by a good 10-12 pounds) and Dagger chased her dog around the house the entire visit (about two hours) and I could tell their dog was really getting sick of Dagger (he's very passive and relaxed but Dagger wouldn't let him be). Two months later they visited again and he chased their dog nonstop for about 2.5 hours until their dog finally had enough and would start to challenge Dagger and get him to back off. He also tried to hump their dog numerous times.
> 
> ...


I know this post was a while ago but hoping you or someone here can respond. I googled some info and your post popped up and this is the same challenge I have with my dog. He's also a maltese/poodle mix and he's almost 7 months and cannot pick up social cues of other dogs to know when they don't want him to play. He's already completed 2 puppy classes and petco, had play dates with other dogs that are older and I just had him enrolled in another class. Wondering how your pup is doing now and what has worked for you.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

The original poster hasn't been here for almost 14 years. You're much more like to get a response by starting a new thread or posting to an active one.


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