# Well-trained vs. well-behaved



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

To me, these are two different things. Kit is very well-trained, but really badly behaved.

IMO, a well-trained dog does whatever you ask of it, whenever you ask. Kit will go #1 and #2 on command. She will drink water or blow bubbles in her water on command. She can discriminate between "out tunnel" and "here walk it" quite easily. She will chase after any object I want, unless I tell her not to. She can sit-stay forever, even with highly enticing distractions all around her. She can find hidden scents anywhere.

In contrast, a well-behaved dog naturally behaves itself without being told what to do. Kit has no manners. When she sees her favorite person, she will scream until she's allowed to go jump on him and lick to her heart's content. She delights in stuffing her nose up women's skirts. All idle hands should be petting her, and open laps are not allowed, either. Anyone who even glances at her earns tail wags, which will escalate into jumping and then kisses if they persist. She dives head-first into any open trashcan. She steals food every chance she gets and has no qualms about jumping on counters to do so. When she gets impatient, she barks at people to be let her out of her crate. I can manage any of these things because she is well-trained, but left to her own devices, she will always choose to be mischievousness. 

Luckily, I love the trouble maker in her and I don't mind managing situations so that she can't get herself in trouble. Even though we love upper-level training classes, tricks, and trialing, she would be a nightmare in competitive obedience (and really, I can't imagine myself enjoying that either). Pretty much everyone who likes dogs loves her because she's so overly enthusiastic about everything. And yet there are a few people we know who really dislike her - they are people who enjoy calm, naturally obedient, subdued dogs. I do my best to keep her away from these people.

Where does your dog fall on the well-trained vs. well-behaved spectrum? Or maybe you have different definitions?


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

in my opinion a well trained dog is well behaved. a well trained dog is trained not to exhibit the "bad" behavior (without commands), just because a dog can obey tons of commands it doesn't make it well trained. if the dog is acting wildly and out of control it means its training in those areas is lacking greatly. focusing training on tricks and leaving out the manners leaves you with a semi trained dog (in my opinion). so I would say my view of well trained and well behaved are different from yours. please dont think I am saying your wrong and I'm right I am just offering my view on it.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

You pretty much hit the nail on the head for my opinion on this, GottaLuvMutts!

All of my dogs are well trained. They'll do what I ask, when I ask, and I expect nothing less. 

But in the house, they beg for food, jump on guests, bark, hog the couch, and steal each other's toys.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree, while I allow a certain lead way to "be a dog" (sniffing playing digging rolling in nasty stuff etc...) but from when they are small puppies, behavior like approaching strangers unless I SAY so (no matter what the person is saying they could be calling & whistling & patting their legs excitedly & my dogs will still look to me for direction) I take them out I. Public places but they aren't allowed to make the decision to Approach someone ... That is my choice.

Some dogs are naturally well behaved, Izze wasn't IMO a well trained dog, she knew the basics (sit heel down stay come out off no ok etc) but as far as tricks & the like ... She wouldn't have any of it she just didn't see any point in it. 

Now Josefina loves tricks & loves to learn she is also well behaved but not naturally, I just manage her so she is but she often needs "reminders"


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Training and behavior have nothing at all together in my opinion. 

Training is what you teach the dog, period, the end.

Behavior is how the dog behaves, period, the end.

I can train (intentionally teach) 'bad' behavior as easily as I can teach good. You can, basically, train a dog to be poorly behaved. 

Conversely, some dogs really are naturally WELL behaved. Jack is one of those dogs. He has very little training, though he's very good at the little he knows. He does not, however, and never has barked, jumped, gotten into the trash, counter surfed, chased the cats, pulled on his leash - or really done anything bad. Some of these he was taught earlier in life, at his breeders. Some he never has. He is a polite, mild mannered, WELL BEHAVED dog, all on his own. 

Kylie, conversely, will behave well (as in the action) when she is in a situation that she has been trained for, and taught how to handle in the way I desire. Lacking that guidance or a cue, her default is very different and inclined toward 'mischief' and making her own fun. Ergo: She's well trained, she is not well BEHAVED.

Bug is neither horribly well behaved OR well trained - she's overly enthusiastic and kind of rude. She's got basic training, and is polite enough out and about, but she's certainly not POLITE to family members about her quest for love. That's cool with me.

Thud's... between Jack and Kylie. He's very sweet and wiggly and lovey, but just a bit reserved and that gives him some basic 'good behavior', and while he picks up training pretty well he goes to sleep when he's bored. So, closer to Jack than Kylie, but pretty well behaved in general but he definitely still has his moments. And I like them.


Training is taught, basically, for me. Behavior can be, but it's also got the option of being something innate.

And frankly, if I'm honest, I tend to associate dogs who are well behaved dogs with dogs who have been shut down. So I don't much like it, and don't strive to achieve it. Staying out of the trash, not chasing the cats, not counter surfing or eating the furniture/house - yes, that's discouraged/directed/trained/managed. But my GOD if they want to do zoomies bouncing off the couch, jump on me when I come home, or dig holes in the yard, I'm okay with it.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Toby and hattie are the opposite- well behaved, but not well trained. They both listen, are quiet in the house, will stop barking on command, dont countersurf, dont chew, and will get off the furniture if you tell them to.

They also both have selective hearing, hence the not well trained part 

Nugget is just a mess right now, but he's in that awful teenage phase. Bubba was like kit, well trained but still needed house manners.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I've had a couple of dogs that were extremely well-behaved. They may have been well-trained, but not by me. 

One was the stray Irish setter that found me in Santa Barbara. When I brought her home, she was in desparate need of a bath. I tried to lift her into the tub and, for the first and last time ever, she growled at me. I said, "Okay, then, get yourself into that tub." Nobody was more astonished than me when she immediately jumped into the tub and sat down. She would not touch food that was not in her dish and she would not let me out of her sight when we were outside. She continued to astonish me for the rest of her life.

When we got Cubby the black lab, I decided to whistle train him. I took him to a large open field and waited for him to wander about 70 yards away. Then I blew the whistle. He returned to me with so much enthusiasm that he nearly bowled me over. I thought, "Okay, THAT training is done." I learned later on that he responded to hand signals and could learn in a about an hour about restrticted areas (which was useful because he went to work with me every day.)

People who met either of those dogs could assume that I am a dog-training genious.

People who have met Molly or Esther know better.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Kabota is very well behaved. You could entirely forget he's around.

Well trained, not so much. If I want a dog who will excel at learning, I'll need a second dog.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I agree well trained and well behaved are different. Jubel is a milder version of Kit in this respect I think. He's pretty well trained, will listen to what I say the vast majority of the time but does go "deaf" in some high distraction situations. I wouldn't say he's horribly misbehaved in general but if we encounter strangers on a walk and they acknowledge him he will want to jump up on them and say hi, he WILL listen when I tell him not to jump and greet nicely but he does WANT to jump. If we run into dog people we know he IS going to jump on them and cover them in kisses, they love it. Food has to be managed in our house because if it is left with in reach of Jubel he WILL take it, well trained comes in where he won't go after the bag of treats when I leave it within reach while we're training. Even if I leave the room for a minute or two he waits.

Jubel's well behaved enough in the house to be left alone with free roam (exception being the kitchen is gated off to bar access to food items). The only time he chews on "inappropriate" items is for attention right in front of me. He'll go grab a shoe, blanket, paper laying around on the couch, etc and chew/tear/shake at it directly in front of me we have NEVER come home to find he's done anything close to that when left alone. And when he's being a brat and grabbing things he still listens and drops when I tell him to.

So yeah, he has manners if I remind him to use them but naturally he's going to jump all over you trying to give you kisses and will steal food right out of your hand if your attention wavers...unless you tell him not too.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not especially fond of "well-behaved", in dogs or in humans. It usually makes me think something bad has happened to them to make them that way :/. And what's the saying? "Well-behaved women rarely make history"? Being well-behaved is highly overrated . Well-trained. . .well, obviously, you have to be well-trained in something, or you couldn't hold down a job.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I'm not especially fond of "well-behaved", in dogs or in humans. It usually makes me think something bad has happened to them to make them that way :/. And what's the saying? "Well-behaved women rarely make history"? Being well-behaved is highly overrated . Well-trained. . .well, obviously, you have to be well-trained in something, or you couldn't hold down a job.


I watch a dog two days a week who is SO well-behaved. She is well trained as well, but that has nothing to do with how she behaves, yet she's the nicest, happiest dog who has never had a bad thing happen to her. I don't think that all well behaved dogs are like that because they were beat into it or scared into it, etc. She is literally the BEST dog anyone could ask for as just a companion pet. She doesn't need insane excercise, she doesn't bark at the door when people come, jump on you, steal your food, etc. and it's not because of the way she was raised/trained.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have a different view on things. 'Well trained' makes me ask... in what? It's not universal. I would say Kit is well trained in some things and lacking in training in other things. That is not 'wrong' btw, it's just the nature of owning dogs. You focus on what matters to you then manage the rest. If a dog can do competition obedience and yet can't find a scent on command or run an agility course, are they not as trained as Kit? I don't really think so. It's impossible to measure unless you're measuring by the same thing. You can say this dog is better trained at this task but you can't really compare a dog trained in agility with one trained to work sheep with one trained to competition obedience, etc. 

I have no interest at all in formal obedience. It's just... boring to me. So my dogs don't heel in a fancy position, they don't hold long down stays, they don't do a formal retrieve. So I train my dogs in other things that hold more interest/value to me. Simple as that.

I do expect some 'well behaved-ness' from my dogs in order for life to go smoothly. If we're out and about, they need to stick with me if they're off leash unless I tell them to explore (example). In public they're usually really nicely behaved and I like that- exception being agility class while it's not their turn, then they're obnoxious). at home, I don't care so much. Summer is great, Mia is a mess. It works for us.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I get a ton of compliments about how well behaved my dogs are out and about. Doesn't mean they'shut down at all. Quite the opposite. They've just been exposed to and around a lot and taught how I want them to behave. They both walk close to me, don't pull at all on a leash, don't react to other dogs or people, and are generally dogs I can count on to be relaxed and behaved anywhere. Now, get Summer's attention and get her excited and yeah she'll probably jump all over you when invited and bark and spin in circles. 

I always want to go for a dog that is behaved in public but also is not shut down. I know so many agility dogs that are awesome and calm in public situations and yet turn it on majorly when they're asked. One of my favorite shelties has 4 MACHs and a PDCH and every time I see him he's perfectly behaved and quiet off the field. He's now 11 or 12 and really just tears it up still when it's his turn to play.

I like naughty dogs though so I am sure I encourage Mia's badness sometimes.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

this was my first shocker of reality, is to see an exceptional working trial dog absolutely stunning in the ring, then go and spend time with the owner at their home with this dog.. Total out of control... Mary always saying she wanted to breed a dog that you could live with.. hit home for the first time for this experience what she meant in always saying that.. For me well behaved first and well trained is always a work in progress


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I'm not especially fond of "well-behaved", in dogs or in humans. It usually makes me think something bad has happened to them to make them that way :/.


My papillon is what I'd consider well-behaved, and I have never used any dominance or punishment-based techniques on her. She's just a very biddable little dog, always eager to please me. I taught her a few household things, but a lot of stuff she picked up on her own -- I only had to shoo her out of the kitchen a few times before she learned that I don't want her under my feet while I'm cooking, for example; she started hanging out behind the dividing line between kitchen and dining area. She learned that if she bugged me while I was eating, I'd gently push her away with my foot and only toss her something if she stayed back and was quiet. She decided for herself that this meant she should never rush for my food, even if I left it on the coffee table for a moment. I didn't deliberately train any "go to your place" or "leave it" behaviors.

I disagree that "well-trained" and "well-behaved" are different things. I think that we humans have trained our dogs' manners in subtle ways. For example, if you have a dog who doesn't jump up on people, you probably did something like turn your back and ignore the dog when it jumped on you as a pup. Same with leaving the room when a puppy nipped, or not letting a dog out of its crate until it was quiet, or only handing over a treat when your dog was sitting nicely. Maybe you did this deliberately, or maybe you did it without even realizing. 

I know that for me, I tend to get caught up in my work and will ignore a dog that's pestering me, so I have "trained" my dogs to wait calmly for attention simply by extinguishing the pestering behavior through not acknowledging them when they did it. I don't like it when dogs lick me, so I'd pull my hands away the second they did, resulting in dogs that don't lick. I'm usually busy putting stuff away when I come home, so I ignore enthusiastic greetings, and my dogs therefore learned to stay quiet with all four paws on the floor when I come in. 

Basically, I think that separating "well-trained" from "well-behaved" is saying that the former is learned while the latter is natural, and I disagree. I think it would have been perfectly possible for my dogs to end up badly behaved in a home where the people were more tolerant of crazy behavior.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Buddy is well behaved, because he had (i think) had bad things happen to him, Izze was well behaved but she didnt have anything happen to her, she was very stoic in public but it was just because she had basically grown up in bustling public places (she grew up as a horse stable office mascot from the time she was 6 weeks old. in places if i sit she will find a plac eout of the eay (like under the table or chair i am in & plop herself down & chill.

Josefina is getting like that as she gets older but she is coming 3 years old (OMG all READY???) & as a youngster she was rather ... eh ... i guess over stimulated in busy, loud, public situations would be a good discription.


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## EagleRiverDee (Mar 14, 2011)

All my dogs prior to the one I have now were naturally (mostly) well behaved. And for that reason I didn't bother with obedience training. My current dog is naturally badly behaved- always in the garbage, jumps on people, chews on everything, into everything, stuff like that. We just started obedience school, and prior to that I'd been working with her on my own for the 2 months I've had her. She's a quick learner, and will do *anything* for a treat. But as soon as I'm not looking, she's back to her shenanigans. It's frustrating. I think if I had to choose, I'd prefer a naturally well behaved dog over a well trained (but otherwise ill behaved) dog. But I'm sure she's in my life for a reason and I'll give her my best effort for life. Plus she's only 19 months old, and a rescue, so she may grow out of some of this stuff. I hope.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I think it would have been perfectly possible for my dogs to end up badly behaved in a home where the people were more tolerant of crazy behavior.


I agree with you to some degree, but the rules for my dogs are basically the same. I have raised two of them from puppies, and in fairly short order. I can tell you HANDS DOWN one of them is going to get into trouble that the other one will not. If the one who was going to get into trouble without being actively managed, watched or told otherwise was the puppy I'd still agree with you. 

But the one who is going to find something to stick her face in, is not the young puppy. So I only sort of agree.

Let's not forget other things that lead to bad behavior when we're talking to other owners - like energy level. Or the fact that some dogs learn more quickly and easily and are more biddable, and WILL learn from the subtle things, at least more quickly than others. You can train dogs to do a lot of things, but they do have a basic temperament and intelligence and eagerness to please and - 

Training doesn't cover it all.

"Training for WHAT" ala Laurelin I do agree with, though.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

EagleRiverDee said:


> All my dogs prior to the one I have now were naturally (mostly) well behaved. And for that reason I didn't bother with obedience training. My current dog is naturally badly behaved- always in the garbage, jumps on people, chews on everything, into everything, stuff like that. We just started obedience school, and prior to that I'd been working with her on my own for the 2 months I've had her. She's a quick learner, and will do *anything* for a treat. But as soon as I'm not looking, she's back to her shenanigans. It's frustrating. I think if I had to choose, I'd prefer a naturally well behaved dog over a well trained (but otherwise ill behaved) dog. But I'm sure she's in my life for a reason and I'll give her my best effort for life. Plus she's only 19 months old, and a rescue, so she may grow out of some of this stuff. I hope.


thats the way Josefina was when she was a teenager up until like she turned 2 LOL LOL. Izze was bad like destructive bad til she turned a year or so.

thats the pros VS cons about raising a puppy VS adopting an adult dog. getting a puppy means i can do it my way from the beginning, the dog grows up with me, we 'get used' to each other's quirks & ways of being early on & in some ways its easier. Buddy still gets unnerved with my frustration, like when something gets stuck or i cant get my weed eater or lawn mower started & curse & smack it, he gets a little nervous & disappears. I know hes not scared of me persay, but the situation which leads me to believe that he was mistreated at some point or just generally underexposed. he also hates collars & leashes. if i ever rescue another one i dont think i will go for another one who isnt "ok" with a leash or collar, because its hard to get an adult dog past that. i have him accepting of it, but i dont think he will ever like it.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Denali is very well trained, and is also very well behaved. I really believe that preventing bad habits and being able to provide a high level of supervision and redirection when she was a puppy has lead to her being well behaved. She always had rules in place. She never gets in the trash, chews up clothing, or counter surfs, she waits at the front door to be invited out instead of bolting, she has a lot of great habits I developed in her as a puppy. She can be alone in the house and not get into any sort of mischief. When she was almost a year old I started allowing her to sleep on the bed at night, and she's gradually had more freedom from the crate in the last couple years. When we leave the house Kaytu has to be crated and we just leave Denali in our room. She stays on our bed and doesn't cause any trouble.

Kaytu is pretty well trained, and well behaved _when supervised_. She is a sneaker. When we rescued her she was almost 2 and had no previous training (she could kind of sit), didn't pay attention to people at all, she's an escape artist (she bolts, can climb chainlink, digs, and even jumped through a window screen), she would counter surf and get in trash, eat socks, wasn't fully housetrained, never even thought to "ask" for things she just did what she wanted and took what she wanted, she pulled incredibly hard on leash and if I wasn't moving forward she'd stand up on her hind legs and balance, she'd never had any kind of rules or structure. She also has a whole lot of energy. The first several months were spent on teaching her to wait at the front door instead of bolting, building her attention and focus, and working on good manners and how to appropriately live in a house. Everything she did was normal dog things, totally normal dog behavior, but not appropriate for living with people. It's been over a year. If she is left unsupervised for 10 minutes in the yard she might end up 2 doors down, having gone under one fence and over another, to make a new doggie friend. If she is alone in the house she will still eat socks or shred clothing, she gets into trash, and counter surfs. She doesn't do any of that when supervised and doesn't do it when crated, so she's always on a supervise/crate management plan along with getting lots of exercise. She's a totally different dog now and I used her face as the logo for my dog training business. She goes in public and walks great on leash. Super sweet and friendly without being overly in-your-face. She's learned lots of cues and tricks. She's an awesome dog. It took me many months to bond with her because I was so terrified of her bolting and being hit by a car. She's run across busy 2-lane streets with traffic going 50mph, not a care in the world but just enjoying the run. It's been terrifying to let myself bond with her but now I can't imagine life without her.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

> Let's not forget other things that lead to bad behavior when we're talking to other owners - like energy level. Or the fact that some dogs learn more quickly and easily and are more biddable, and WILL learn from the subtle things, at least more quickly than others. You can train dogs to do a lot of things, but they do have a basic temperament and intelligence and eagerness to please and -
> 
> Training doesn't cover it all.


But you're actually pretty much agreeing with my point, though. A dog that's more biddable and picks up on subtle cues is probably going to end up well-behaved (at least in your home or mine), but is "well-behaved" a natural trait? No, you have subtly taught that dog manners. The fact that Dog A learned manners more quickly and easily than Dog B -- because Dog A was more interested in learning or had a better aptitude for it -- doesn't make Dog A _naturally_ a well-behaved dog. If Dog A had grown up in a family where they unintentionally rewarded crazed barking, jumping, nipping, etc., and therefore the biddable dog that picks up on cues thought THAT was how he was supposed to act, then those owners might argue that Dog A is naturally badly-behaved.

Tell me, what's "natural" about good household manners?


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Gypsy is very-well trained, but often horribly behaved without me micromanaging her. Sounds quite a bit like Kit, actually, if you substitute certain wild behaviors for others. And just like Kit, some people love her and others fall on the opposite side of the spectrum. I love Gypsy - we have an incredible bond borne of the learning we've done together - but she is totally the wrong kind of dog for me. 

Because honestly? Unlike GottaLuvMutts, I hate it. The need to manage her all the time, that is. I intend for my next dog to be a little (um, well, a lot) more naturally inclined toward good behavior. I'm more than willing to give up intensity, reactivity, and drive for better manners.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> But you're actually pretty much agreeing with my point, though. A dog that's more biddable and picks up on subtle cues is probably going to end up well-behaved (at least in your home or mine), but is "well-behaved" a natural trait? No, you have subtly taught that dog manners. The fact that Dog A learned manners more quickly and easily than Dog B -- because Dog A was more interested in learning or had a better aptitude for it -- doesn't make Dog A _naturally_ a well-behaved dog. If Dog A had grown up in a family where they rewarded crazed barking, jumping, nipping, etc., and therefore the biddable dog that picks up on cues thought THAT was how he was supposed to act, then those owners might argue that Dog A is naturally badly-behaved.


Yes, but if Dog B had grown up in a home that expected IT to pick up on those subtle cues, it would still be behaving in undesirable way without additional, focused, formal work on it. 

And I think what people are calling 'naturally well behaved' is pretty subjective, too. I mean, are we just defining that as easy to live with, in the household it is in? Because if that's the case, MOST dogs described are well behaved, here. The examples of 'badly behaved' are all using standards set by someone else, not what they have a problem with in their own home. Then there's 'well behaved = never engaging in spontaneous behavior' that Willowy was going on about, which is ALSO a different thing. Or the presence or degree of energy and drive (that Kristen just brought up). 

Just. What's well behaved MEAN? It's so subjective it's kind of pointless. Clearly to some people it's a dog who is well trained. For me it's a dog who doesn't get into trouble, with or without formal training, and doesn't need to be told specifically what to do (via formally taught command) in order to handle a situation appropriately/not get into 'trouble'. I mean, yes, Bug will sit before she meets someone because she's been taught, but her natural reaction is to leap into their face, and if you're not there to TELL HER to sit, or to make sure she does, or the second the sit breaks, she's going to try to get her tongue in their ear. Because that's the inclination and what she will do in the absence of a cue, to me, Bug is kind of 'badly behaved'. But because I can compensate for that with training and commands, (telling her to sit, stay, and forcing a more restrained greeting with them) she's 'well trained'.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I have to agree with Crantastic here. I have never met a dog that was "well behaved" on their own. Any stray that I have fostered has always had to start from square one. Mona, found running around in a field in a rural area in Quebec, jumped on our coffee table, chewed up our furniture, and stole food off the table the first few days we had her. She was extremely gentle, intelligent, and biddable, though, and within just a week, she learned "good manners". Same with Meeko, who came from a puppy mill. He begged, he ate cat poop, he stole socks, he chewed on cushions... but not anymore after training.

I really do think that a well behaved dog IS a well trained dog. Well trained in household manners, not obedience or tricks.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Basically, I think that separating "well-trained" from "well-behaved" is saying that the former is learned while the latter is natural, and I disagree. I think it would have been perfectly possible for my dogs to end up badly behaved in a home where the people were more tolerant of crazy behavior.


To some extent I agree, but I also think there are dogs who are innately polite and those who are not. The innately polite ones have probably been trained too, but it was easy and the owners barely thought about it. The impolite dogs might have owners who train them like crazy, but they find being impolite very rewarding (I'm looking at you, Watson). I've had a dog who was innately polite. We didn't know anything about training, never worked on "off" or "leave it", but she never jumped on people and never ever stole food. She was just intuitive and figured out what we wanted. Even as a puppy she was always perfect. I guess I sort of trained "stay", but I was wishy washy about it - that dog would stay where you left her forever. Watson is the opposite - I can train him, and he knows what "off" and "leave it" means, but it takes about a million repetitions and being super consistent until he will offer it on his own. He needs to be micromanaged or he is going to find something "bad" to do.

Maybe it's just a continuum. Some dogs are well behaved with minimal training, while others require lots of consistency and training to have decent manners. At some point, the owners of the tougher dogs might pick their battles and work on other things rather than manners, like obedience or agility behaviors, while just managing the bad behaviors.

To me, a "naturally" well behaved dog is one who picks up subtle cues from humans, without the human trying to train it, and is so biddable that they do it without any hope of reward (other than maybe a quick pat on the head). Sure, the owner is training the dog on the rules of the house, but not consciously.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

taquitos said:


> I really do think that a well behaved dog IS a well trained dog. Well trained in household manners, not obedience or tricks.


Yeah, pretty much that. A dog's temperament -- energy level, eagerness to please, intelligence, etc. -- will influence how easily a dog learns household manners (either good or bad); it will influence whether that dog basically teaches itself or whether you have to work at teaching it... but "well-behaved" in and of itself is not a natural trait.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

In regards to *naturally well-behaved*: I see this as a dog that is more calm, more unflappable, a dog that is inclined to be off (but may turn "on"). A less naturally well-behaved dog would be go-go-go, more reactive, always "on" (but may turn "off"). Both can be well-behaved, but the latter type of dog takes more/different training to get to the same point in basic manners. 

Gypsy can be well-behaved, but I have to manage her behaviors. We will always down-stay at the door, for instance, because she goes berserk when greeting people. She will jump up occasionally and crazywigglewhine, unless I'm giving her something else to do. Traditional conditioning didn't work her. She doesn't give a darn if people only pet her when she's sitting or 4-on-the-floor. Doesn't care if they turn their back. It's not the petting she likes; it's the act of greeting.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> To some extent I agree, but I also think there are dogs who are innately polite and those who are not.


This is probably more accurate. I have certainly owned and fostered dogs who would never THINK about jumping on people, getting into the trash, stealing food, whatever - some of them from very young ages, some of them after having spent a life on a chain. They still had to be taught some things, yes, absolutely (mostly housebreaking), but they're naturally very PROPER. Not even BIDDABLE, really, so much as reserved, restrained, and... well, polite is the only word I have for it. Their natural behavior does not involve exuberance and destruction. It may involve other things that aren't desirable (or may involve exuberance and destruction but not those other things) but they are so stinking polite from GO that they just... have minimal impact. I can't even say I taught them things, since I didn't. They went when they went out, they'd never go inside. I didn't push them away from food; they never went near it. I didn't turn away when they jumped; they never jumped.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> In regards to *naturally well-behaved*: I see this as a dog that is more calm, more unflappable, a dog that is inclined to be off (but may turn "on"). A less naturally well-behaved dog would be go-go-go, more reactive, always "on" (but may turn "off"). Both can be well-behaved, but the latter type of dog takes more/different training to get to the same point in basic manners.
> 
> Gypsy can be well-behaved, but I have to manage her behaviors. We will always down-stay at the door, for instance, because she goes berserk when greeting people. She will jump up occasionally and crazywigglewhine, unless I'm giving her something else to do. Traditional conditioning didn't work her. She doesn't give a darn if people only pet her when she's sitting or 4-on-the-floor. Doesn't care if they turn their back. It's not the petting she likes; it's the act of greeting.


And this, frankly.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I've had a dog who was innately polite. We didn't know anything about training, never worked on "off" or "leave it", but she never jumped on people and never ever stole food. She was just intuitive and figured out what we wanted.


You did train her, unintentionally. Like we always tell people here, dogs are opportunists. They do what works to get them what they want. Your dog learned that certain behaviors made you happy, and because she was naturally an eager-to-please ("polite") dog, therefore she wanted to do them.



> To me, a "naturally" well behaved dog is one who picks up subtle cues from humans, without the human trying to train it, and is so biddable that they do it without any hope of reward (other than maybe a quick pat on the head). Sure, the owner is training the dog on the rules of the house, but not consciously.


Right, that's what I've been saying. It still doesn't make that dog naturally well-behaved. It just means that that dog is much easier to train -- one of those dogs that "trains itself," you might say. The dog is naturally calm and biddable and intuitive, which leads to it being well-behaved. "Well-behaved," though, is an artificial concept; it's about human rules, not about inborn traits.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Gypsy is very-well trained, but often horribly behaved without me micromanaging her. Sounds quite a bit like Kit, actually, if you substitute certain wild behaviors for others. And just like Kit, some people love her and others fall on the opposite side of the spectrum. I love Gypsy - we have an incredible bond borne of the learning we've done together - but she is totally the wrong kind of dog for me.
> 
> Because honestly? Unlike GottaLuvMutts, I hate it. The need to manage her all the time, that is. I intend for my next dog to be a little (um, well, a lot) more naturally inclined toward good behavior. I'm more than willing to give up intensity, reactivity, and drive for better manners.



I am glad someone said what i was thinking, but i hate it too. i hate a dog that does bad things ... even if they know them to be wrong as soon as you turn your back. Josefina used to be like that, but something suddenly seemed to have clicked (it might be maturity ... i dont really know) all i know is she is no longer a goofy, naughty dog, she used to be like Kit & Gypsy when she was an adolecent & honestly i was close to calling the rescue & asking her to be made a foster instead of a adoption :/ but OH convinced me to keep her for 2 yrs & see if i felt the same way, because at the time neither i nor the dog was happy.

she still does things like barking at the animals when they come too close to the fence & digging, but i let those things slide. for she has stopped doing everything else annoying LOL.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> You did train her, unintentionally. Like we always tell people here, dogs are opportunists. They do what works to get them what they want. Your dog learned that certain behaviors made you happy, and because she was naturally an eager-to-please ("polite") dog, therefore she wanted to do them.


I totally agree that somehow she was trained, but to me this is how a "naturally" well behaved dog acts. To me, it's natural behavior when the owner isn't doing anything to actually train the behavior. Everybody and every animal learns by association and by reinforcement somehow, intentional or not, but I'm lumping "trained" dogs into the intentional reinforcement part. Naturally well behaved dogs don't need that to learn basic manners. The dog didn't know the actual behaviors I wanted her to do, but she figured them out without me telling her - that's pretty "natural" to me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You did train her, unintentionally. Like we always tell people here, dogs are opportunists. They do what works to get them what they want. Your dog learned that certain behaviors made you happy, and therefore she wanted to do them.


I have seen a dog come off a chain it has been on since 8 weeks old walk into a house, and never: Have an accident, go near the trash, jump on a person, jump on the furniture or chase a cat. There was no training because there was, at no point, any effort of the dog to engage in those behaviors. I found it weird as heck, but it just wasn't there. Unless the dog was reading a handbook, or simply had no desire to do those things or to get the chicken out of the trash, it was the dog's nature. 

And given that the dog stayed for years without ever twitching toward any of those things... not a honeymoon period, either. I mean maybe it figured out that the behavior he had been exhibiting worked well enough for him to get what he want, but while he got more energetic and developed SOME behavior issues: he barked at everything that moved, and on the more extreme end he was REALLY bad with strangers and had to be muzzled at the vet, and I could never get him to so much as SIT. But he never exhibited 'rude' behavior in the house. He was just... I guess what Kristen would have called 'off'. 

Or, more likely, so perceptive that, again, he decided that what h'd been doing when he first came in worked and never tried anything new because what he had was good enough. But if I didn't have to manage to consciously teach him - I'm calling it natural. I'm not doing anything on my part. I didn't sit down and teach him. He figured it out quickly and with very little to no input from me and no conscious effort on my part. If I'm not making ANY effort or even aware of it, I'm not calling it training.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I don't think well behaved has much of anything to do with drive. If you met my two dogs you would leave with the idea that summer is much much crazier and drivier than Mia. That is the usual assumption. It's definitely completely wrong if you spend any time with my dogs. That has more to do with personality than drive. Summer is very outgoing whereas Mia is not. Live in my house even an hour and you will think Mia is insane and Summer is lazy. 

I think here's often a thought that drive equals crazy and its just not the case. They can go hand in hand or they can be totally separate. Drive can be a part of he puzzle but its not all of it. 

Naturally behaved though doesn't mean much to me. You'd have to get more specific than that. Summer would neve dream of getting in the trash but she would jump all over someone and try to make out with them. Mia would never jump on anyone but is very busy and likes to shred things for fun. 

ETA: This is why I don't type on the phone.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I don't think well behaved has much of anything to do with drive. If you my two dogs you would leave with the idea hat summer is much much crazier and drives than Mia. That is the usual assumption. It's definitely completely wrong if you spend any time with my dogs. That has more to do with personality than drive. Summer is very outgoing whereas Mia is not. Live in my house even an hour and you will think Mia is insane.
> 
> I think here's often a thought that drive equals crazy and its just not the case. They can go hand in hand or they can be totally separate. Drive can be a part of he puzzle but its not all of it.
> 
> Naturally behaved though doesn't mean much to me. You'd have to get more specific than that. Summer would neve dream of getting in the trash but she would jump all over someone and try to make out with them. Mia would never jump on anyone but is very busy and likes to shred things for fun.



Depends on the drive being questioned for me. If it's the need to be GOING and DOING and THINKING in general? Then I have a hard time seeing how that's not a dog who's going to engage in more inappropriate behavior without formal training, supervision, and management. If it's food drive, or ball drive, you put up the ball and you're good to go. But drive is another term we've never been able to adqueately define here, at least in the threads I've seen questioning it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I guess it would help if people clarified what they mean by well-behaved. It seems that most people mean good manners in the house -- not stealing food, not chasing other pets, not nipping or jumping on people... but all of those "bad" things are natural dog behaviors. A "well-behaved" dog is acting unnaturally, which is why it doesn't make sense to me that people think good manners are some kind of inborn trait.

Basically, you can breed for low prey drive, calmness, biddability, intelligence... but I think that those things influence how a dog learns manners. Manners themselves aren't something you can breed for; they're not a natural breed (or species) trait.



> Naturally well behaved dogs don't need that to learn basic manners. The dog didn't know the actual behaviors I wanted her to do, but she figured them out without me telling her - that's pretty "natural" to me.


But see, you keep saying that she "figured out" or "learned" these behaviors. She didn't come out of the womb knowing that she was supposed to act a certain way. In a different type of household, she may have been a "badly-behaved" dog, learning annoying behaviors when her owners unintentionally reinforced them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> . Manners themselves aren't something you can breed for; they're not a natural breed (or species) trait.


And that's why when I hit those dogs, my first assumption is that they're broken and shut down. It's not NORMAL for a dog who to be incurious and disinclined to investigate ANYTHING - but it does happen. And sometimes, probably even the vast majority of the time, it's just the right combination of other traits that come together in a dog that picks things up without formally, intentionally, being taught.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> Depends on the drive being questioned for me. If it's the need to be GOING and DOING and THINKING in general? Then I have a hard time seeing how that's not a dog who's going to engage in more inappropriate behavior without formal training, supervision, and management. If it's food drive, or ball drive, you put up the ball and you're good to go. But drive is another term we've never been able to adqueately define here, at least in the threads I've seen questioning it.


I think of drive simply as motivation. 

Getting into trouble? I tend to call that just being 'busy'. 

Dogs can be extremely motivated by something without being 'on' for it all the time.

I wish it were so simple to turn Mia's peskiness off by just putting up the ball. lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I think of drive simply as motivation.
> 
> Getting into trouble? I tend to call that just being 'busy'.
> 
> ...



This is the only definition I've found, and even it's pretty complex/multi-faceted:



> Following are typical traits of a good, high-drive sports dog:
> 
> Stamina – a high level of physical energy with plenty of endurance
> Mentally active – the dog need not be a genius, but will quickly learn new things when trained using positive training methods
> ...


I think the mentally active part is what I tend to focus on. Your 'busy', maybe. I don't know.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

I think it's about what the dog finds reinforcing. Lincoln doesn't jump anymore (well, he's started to regress a bit if I'm carrying Ellie) because he never got attention for it. For him, being pet is MUCH more reinforcing than the act of jumping. For some dogs, jumping might be more reinforcing than attention. The former, is the dog that people think is "naturally well behaved." He also learned that he gets the most attention when he's laying at our feet and chewing a toy quietly. Guess what he does most of the time? I'm sure a lot of people would think that he's just well behaved, but we were just very choosy about what we gave him attention for, and he's motivated enough to pick up on it.

Ellie, though, I can tell is going to be a different case. Lincoln still doesn't like to explore without us right there (in the back yard) Ellie is 9 weeks and is quick to come back and check in with us, but she's "got much more important things to do." She's super duper smart (like I thought Lincoln was smart, but she needs to be in a gifted puppy program or something) and very food motivated, so she's picking things up quickly (we're working on four on the floor, closed mouth, eye contact) but I think that she'll have trouble not finding what she wants to do more reinforcing than attention and treats. It'll be a different experience, but I think that as long as she has an outlet, she won't take that "business" out on the house or us.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Good training certainly results in better behavior. Not all good behavior is the result of training, though. In the end, I do agree that well-behaved dogs are more likely to be that way due to training. 

My beast, left to her own devices, would be awful. Her natural behavior is a strange mix of polite indifference to people and naughtiness when she wants something (as I'm typing this, she is going after one of my bras for the 2nd time since she knows this will get my attention). She is trained to the point of being mostly tolerable behavior-wise. But she is neither well-trained nor well-behaved on any objective level.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Gypsy is very-well trained, but often horribly behaved without me micromanaging her. Sounds quite a bit like Kit, actually, if you substitute certain wild behaviors for others. And just like Kit, some people love her and others fall on the opposite side of the spectrum. I love Gypsy - we have an incredible bond borne of the learning we've done together - but she is totally the wrong kind of dog for me.
> 
> Because honestly? Unlike GottaLuvMutts, I hate it. The need to manage her all the time, that is. I intend for my next dog to be a little (um, well, a lot) more naturally inclined toward good behavior. I'm more than willing to give up intensity, reactivity, and drive for better manners.


I have to say that if I eve met gypsy ... She has the permission ahead of time to lick, jump on & pester me for petting as much as she wants


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, I got to thinking, and "well-behaved" is terribly subjective. I mean, I know people who think that getting on the couch is like The Worst Thing a dog could ever do. And my dogs practically live on the couch. But those people let their dogs lick them all over their face. . .and I HATE being licked, so my dogs know not to. It's just. . .it means something totally different to everyone.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> A dog that is inclined to be off (but may turn "on"). A less naturally well-behaved dog would be go-go-go, more reactive, always "on" (but may turn "off").


Been reading this thread with interest and I really have nothing to add. But K&G I really love this description and I might steal it next time I'm describing my kind of dog. Thanks for the insightful post(s)!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Lol buddy has this thing where if he wants attention, he put his paw on whatever part of me he can reach ... & since he has really sharp nails which but like heck when he rakes them across bare- arms, legs, feet etc...


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Regarding the "subtle cues" that some of you say your dog picks up on...
Kit is able to pick up on many extremely subtle cues from me. And if she knows what I want, then great, she'll do that. That's a biddable dog for you. But if I don't give a cue at all, her go-to behavior is always going to be the naughty choice. It's like that saying "don't eat the daisies". If you don't want her to eat the daisies, you'd better tell her. And you'll have to tell her next time. And the time after that. For the rest of her life. Because she really wants to eat those daisies.

I wonder if it might be a matter of motivation. Kit jumps on people because she finds it rewarding. I can tell her not to, and she will abide. I can give a treat to reinforce not jumping and I can make that treat more rewarding than the act of jumping. But no matter how much training I do, unless I implement some kind of punishment (like a knee to the chest or a shock collar) I'll never convince her that it's not rewarding to jump on people. And given the amount of joy that she derives from jumping, I think I'd need a pretty strong aversive, which I'm not willing to apply.

For those who said it's related to age...
I agree that many dogs become calmer with age. Pretty frequently, I'll get comments from people when I'm out walking Kit. Usually the conversation goes like this:
Kit: *walking calmly, no pulling*
Them: "Your dog is so well behav-"
Kit: *getting very excited, hits the end of the leash*
Them: "Oh, high sweety!"
Kit: *Jumping and giving kisses*
Them "A puppy! How old?"
Me: "Almost 5 years."
Them: "Oh, ok." *Strange look*

I guess she's gained _some_ manners over time. Anything is an improvement over her first moments in my house, when she launched herself onto the kitchen table and stood there grinning like she owned the place.

But I'm really not complaining. She wouldn't be my kinda dog if her enthusiasm wasn't over the top. Naughty is just more fun than subdued.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Ok, one thing that's really bothering me (and this is 100% just me nitpicking about the semantics of words) is the implication that the opposite of drivey and enthusiastic is "subdued," or that "calm," and "naturally obedient," are lumped with "subdued dogs." I've met tons of mellow, mild, chill, relaxed, gentle, soft, quiet, docile, easy, placid, laid back dogs. Pick your adjective. There are many that I have no interest in because they are not drivey enough to want to work.

But the only "subdued" dogs I've ever met have all been abused or 'dominated.'


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## MimiAzura (Jan 5, 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread, but Taj is well behaved, rather then well trained lol 
He has perfect manners in the house and when we are out. 
and the only things I actually spent time teaching him were Sit and Stay. The rest he just picked up on his own. 

Stella is still very much a work in progress..
She has no manners what so ever. She will do anything and everything to get onto a persons lap, steals food of the table/bench/out of peoples hands. 

Before she came into my life, he had no idea how good Taj really was. Little things he did would annoy me, but compared to her, he is kind of perfect  
and she will be perfect too! its just going to take a while lol


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I guess it would help if people clarified what they mean by well-behaved. It seems that most people mean good manners in the house -- not stealing food, not chasing other pets, not nipping or jumping on people... but all of those "bad" things are natural dog behaviors. A "well-behaved" dog is acting unnaturally, which is why it doesn't make sense to me that people think good manners are some kind of inborn trait.
> 
> Basically, you can breed for low prey drive, calmness, biddability, intelligence... but I think that those things influence how a dog learns manners. Manners themselves aren't something you can breed for; they're not a natural breed (or species) trait.
> 
> ...


 What a philosophical debate we're having here. Really this comes down to nature vs. nurture and the "tabula rasa" debate. While I agree with Cran that there's no gene for "manners" there does seem to be huge natural variance in things like energy levels, food drive, play drive, vocality, sociability between dogs and humans. Some dogs seem more naturally inclined than others to cause trouble by getting reinforcement from areas we wish they wouldn't. Of course the dog isn't born knowing what humans expect from it but it could easily be born with traits that make them more or less "polite" by human standards.

Dogs with a low food drive are going to be way less likely to get into the garbage, but maybe they loooove people and will be obnoxious greeting. Some dogs are just lazy and would rather sleep than get into _any_ kind of trouble - I would consider those things inherent manners (although the dog certainly doesn't think of them that way). The other option is that they're extremely soft and approval oriented so they stay in tune with what people want - which is a combination of inherent and learned. 

Interesting questions....

If I've learned anything from this thread its that Pete both poorly trained and poorly behaved by most people's standards. He jumps up to greet, counter-surfs, pulls on the leash, and barks at the door. Luckily he only destroys things out of frustration by being alone (almost never now) or things which have food scent. Partly I was pretty burned out after our housetraining and SA adventures to work extensively on manners but the other aspect is that despite those bad habits I consider him naturally easy to handle. Any of the above behaviours stop with a quiet word (okay not the pulling on the leash). He isn't busy or always "on" the way CptJack and K&G describe, in fact he can be quite lazy but he will jump up on the table if left unsupervised. He is very soft and people oriented naturally though which makes him pretty easy to handle. We're working on the training but with the exception of counter-surfing I don't consider them really a big deal, just part of owning a dog. Plus after the SA everything else seems tiny by comparison.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

its my view that, without any "training" every dog will act just like a dog ( I might be going out on a limb here).
dogs begin learning very very soon. in fact one of their first "training" lessons is when suckling, they do this naturally but by pushing on the teat area they can get a larger amount of milk. is the mother dog giving them lessons? no, but they are "training" in a manner or being trained by stimulus that doing such an action gets a more rewarding result.

Every single action is a learning experience for your dog. when ignoring 'bad' behavior or allowing it to happen the dog learns that your not going to redirect and that its perfectly acceptable so if they find the activity rewarding you are training them to do it, whether your giving a command for it or not. some dogs are less prone to do some actions but that's just because they don't find them as rewarding as another dog might. 

dogs dont know "good behavior or bad behavior" thats our definition. they tend to just do whatever they enjoy until shown that its a rewarding behavior or not. 

I think people often regard 'Well trained" as only meaning formal training sessions.
and "well behaved" as a dog who acts politely by our human definitions.

I have a broader definition. I view it as dogs are being trained 24/7/365 because they are always learning what works for them. behaviors rewarded get repeated, behaviors unrewarded tend to fade. so even if your not "formally training" you are still training your dog. 

the dogs that are "well behaved" have been trained that way. any dog with absolutely zero training (say a dog has lived in the wild until age 1) brought into a kitchen and left with a steak on the counter is most likely going to try and get the steak. they have never had any stimulus that has suggested they shouldnt eat whatever they want. they have to learn it somehow, they wont just naturally leave it alone in most cases. 

dogs react to your input rather well most of us know we can "train" a behavior into our dog in a very short time. such as sit. Its not like our dog understands "ok we are training you now, this is what you need to learn" and they only learn when doing formal training. 


Every single action, reaction, interaction, and lack of action we have with our dog trains it in some manner or another.

I also feel that you can definitely have a dog that's well trained in one area and not well trained in another. my own dogs for example I train some general manners and basic "good" manners into them but if they want to run top speed around my house bouncing and playing and crashing into walls that's fine I don't mind in my house. so I would say my dogs are poorly trained about being calm in my house. since in a lot of households that may not be acceptable. so it also depends totally on your own definition of being "well behaved". same thing with furniture lots of people feel dogs getting on furniture is "bad" mine have their own chair and are allowed on any couch or chair in the house as long as a human isn't there. they will get out of the couch or chair if you tell them but some would consider that being "poorly trained" in my opinion they are well trained into knowing they can be up there. because if I never allowed them up there they would be trained into not being on them. 

It really is a lot more of point of view of definition of being "well trained" and "well behaved" so almost every one in the world is going to have an answer that varies some just a little some greatly.

Also I wanted to add that I love this thread it gives some great perspective on how people view trained versus behaved. thank you for creating this thread.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I wonder if it might be a matter of motivation. Kit jumps on people because she finds it rewarding. I can tell her not to, and she will abide. I can give a treat to reinforce not jumping and I can make that treat more rewarding than the act of jumping. But no matter how much training I do, unless I implement some kind of punishment (like a knee to the chest or a shock collar) I'll never convince her that it's not rewarding to jump on people. And given the amount of joy that she derives from jumping, I think I'd need a pretty strong aversive, which I'm not willing to apply.


There is not much that Summer finds more rewarding than people so it is difficult. I don't particularly care much since she is so small and pretty much no one cares if she jumps. We have had some luck with premacking and also using people as her reward. But that is an innate part of her temperament and not likely to change. 

I think you definitely could 'fix' it with positive only training but it would be difficult and very time consuming. And frankly not worth it when I can just manage it.



Canyx said:


> Ok, one thing that's really bothering me (and this is 100% just me nitpicking about the semantics of words) is the implication that the opposite of drivey and enthusiastic is "subdued," or that "calm," and "naturally obedient," are lumped with "subdued dogs." I've met tons of mellow, mild, chill, relaxed, gentle, soft, quiet, docile, easy, placid, laid back dogs. Pick your adjective. There are many that I have no interest in because they are not drivey enough to want to work.
> 
> But the only "subdued" dogs I've ever met have all been abused or 'dominated.'


Yes that exactly was what I meant to get out from my earlier post. Drivey doesn't mean wild/hyper. Often goes hand in hand but not always.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Interesting thread! I have to say my idiots fall into the well-trained and badly behaved category, without a doubt. 

I see a lot of dogs everyday, because I work at a kennel/daycare, and I will say that _in general_, the dogs that owners describe as "naturally well-behaved" are docile, incurious, soft, slightly nervy, and very low drive - both for food and toys. When you think about it, dogs like that just don't have much to motivate them to behave "badly". They don't care enough about food to steal it, they don't have enough prey drive to chase moving stuff or tug on your socks, they're too soft to really jump up or bother people, they're docile and low energy and so are naturally quiet around the house. 

Is that always the case? No! There are definitely some dogs that straddle a magical region where they can be naturally compliant and motivated. Mackenzy is kinda like that...now that she's almost 8! lol. But she still has her moments and will absolutely steal food and raid the garbage if allowed. 

TBH... With dogs like mine, well trained is easier than well-behaved. This morning I was laughing at Blossom doing the Malinois potty dance, which is basically galloping around the house with lots of spinning and crying thrown in for good measure. Honestly? That's her natural, untrained reaction to being told we're going outside. Just cuz when you're an adolescent Mal, outside to pee is just THAT exciting, lol. Could I train her to be calm? Probably but it would take intense amounts of classical conditioning work lowering her arousal levels. Or compulsion/physical punishment, which is not something I consider remotely warranted for house manners. It's just way way easier to put her on a down stay if she's being bothersome while I put my coat on, etc. These dogs are practically designed to channel their drive into work, and are naturally extremely biddable. In fact, she's one of those dogs that's extremely biddable and picks up on subtle cues, but... she's also wild and very high drive. So it's easier for everyone that she'll hold a quivering down stay at the back door, rather than try to teach her to not be excited about going outside. 

That said, there are still some minimal rules in my house for the sake of sanity, and I have to put a lot of constant effort into impulse control. I definitely agree with Laurelin that driven does not mean hyper (and hyper does not mean driven!). And all of my dogs settle in the house. Said Mal is curled up in a arm chair right now, lol, and her demon Corgi sister is napping next to me on the couch. 

Anyway, I am curious as to whether those who believe any dog can/should be taught to be "well-behaved" (meaning they default to calm, polite behaviors without direct command) have dealt with high drive working or herding breeds (or hell, even gun dogs! My mom has a working bred English Cocker pup with a wonderful sweet disposition but he's not inclined to be mannerly, LOL!)? That's not meant as any insult whatsoever, but I do feel that sometimes we forget the wide of range of dogs that are out in the world. Frankly I forget what it's like to not have crazy, driven, energetic dogs and am amazed when people tell me they can leave their dogs under a year old loose and unsupervised, or that their dog just naturally doesn't jump up or steal food! Or people who've just never needed a crate or x-pen. I'm absolutely astounded by stuff like, LOL!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Emily1188 said:


> Anyway, I am curious as to whether those who believe any dog can/should be taught to be "well-behaved" (meaning they default to calm, polite behaviors without direct command) have dealt with high drive working or herding breeds (or hell, even gun dogs! My mom has a working bred English Cocker pup with a wonderful sweet disposition but he's not inclined to be mannerly, LOL!)? That's not meant as any insult whatsoever, but I do feel that sometimes we forget the wide of range of dogs that are out in the world. Frankly I forget what it's like to not have crazy, driven, energetic dogs and am amazed when people tell me they can leave their dogs under a year old loose and unsupervised, or that their dog just naturally doesn't jump up or steal food! Or people who've just never needed a crate or x-pen. I'm absolutely astounded by stuff like, LOL!


I have a high energy gun dog who has no manners, but yes, I do expect him to have some manners some day. Rather than telling him to do everything, we work a lot on making good choices. For example, I could tell him to go to his mat while I'm making dinner, and reinforce a down stay. Instead, I taught him that the mat is a good place to be and he can choose to be there and cheese might magically appear, but I generally don't cue him to go there now. I get tired of telling him to get off or to leave it 100 times a day. I do set him up for success though and I don't expect things I know he's not ready for (unsupervised time in the house, for example)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mia's default potty trip involves her racing to the back door and whining and slamming her feet up and down Then she rockets out, screaming, races to the back tree and starts biting it. I'm sure I could fix it if I wanted, but I just don't care enough to. 

Leaving her out loose at 4 is completely laughable still. I don't know that she will ever be 'well behaved' if well behaved means she doesn't get into trouble when I'm not managing her. She was dragging my broom down the hall last night, lol. Still have no idea why. I think it just looked fun and she can't help but act on all her impulses. But I can keep her in an x-pen just fine, thankfully.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I've been following this thread on my phone and have been waiting to get on my laptop where posting is easier. 

I have to laugh...Lars is a dog I would consider to be "well-trained." He's an obedience trial high in trial winner and a American Rottweiler Club top 10 dog in both agility and obedience. But...as for well behaved?? Sometimes. LOL He is my evil genius and magnificent bast*rd. He can be so fresh and naughty and I wouldn't have it any other way. I do think "well-behaved" is subjective on what people will tolerate. Lars jumps on people and gives air-borne kisses...but it's only people he knows. And I really do only hang out with other dog people, so they love the airborne kisses. He doesn't jump on the kids who read to him at the local library for his tail waggin' tutors stuff. Does he try to drag me to something he wants to pee on while we're out for a walk...yup. Does he drag me to meet a new dog...yup. But he will immediately drop into a down and show wonderful, restrained manners when meeting a new dog. And, I didn't train that at all...that's just him. 

I have talked about Lars' drive before on this board. He has a lot of drive...he intimidates a lot trainers and other dog people with that drive. He has been called "a lot of dog" by pretty much every one who meets him. The drive doesn't make him "crazy" with energy as some people seem to think drive is. In his world, drive is unbridled enthusiasm and an sense of extreme intensity. He hyperfocuses on the task at hand and he will perform it...no matter what. In drive, he is fearless and over confident. When he is in drive...he looks at us as a team of equals and he wants to drive the team bus. Sometimes that leads to a dog who doesn't listen what I am trying to guide him to do...especially on the agility field. Sometimes that drive is hard to contain in the obedience ring...he loves to leap at my face while being 3' off the ground when we're done with an exercise he thinks he nailed (and I have lost points for that..."dog out of control"). Some may look at him when he is in drive...that he is not well-behaved and being a bad dog. It's like working with an atomic bomb and you have no idea how long the fuse is. But...to bring him down to a well-behaved level while working and in that drive, I would have to use some pretty intense compulsion and adversive methods. I'm did choose the battle of embracing the drive and working with it...not working against it just to have a robot. 

I'll take Ocean for a moment...he is both "Well trained" and "well behaved" by most people. He's a level headed dog (a little suspicious sometimes...but that is okay with a correct rottweiler temperament) and he has a much more steady drive than Lars. Ocean's drive builds slowly and it levels out. It's a quieter drive...a quieter intensity. Lars, on the other hand, there is no cap...he's almost like a volcano and his drive is explosive. There are times where I like Ocean's drive better than Lars' because he's "better behaved" than Lars....that's the agility field. Ocean is fast and as powerful as Lars...but even in drive, he listens and wants to please. Lars is running agility primarily for himself...and I'm more of a vehicle to get him behind the start line. LOL Then there are times where I love Lars' explosive drive...and that's in the obedience ring. He is flashy, confident, people love to watch him. He rarely doesn't qualify and people see him becoming an OTCH dog. Unless I can pull more fire out of Ocean's drive in the obedience ring...he'll be "Just Okay" but I see him being a worrier as we go higher in the levels. Well-behaved may not suit me well there. 

So, I guess that's the working dog take on well behaved versus well trained. Some of the best of the best working dogs aren't usually the best behaved. LOL I think well-behaved is boring... would much rather have fresh and naughty on the end of my leash. 

I'll add some videos where you can see the differences of Ocean's drive versus Lars' drive at herding instinct tests.

Here's Ocean's - watch him from about 45 seconds on. That's where his drive kicks in:






and then...there's Lars and his drive. I wasn't strong enough to handle him and they had to bring in the "Amazon". I thought I was going to be writing out a check for a dead sheep:


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I consider a dog well-behaved if it can settle down on command (stop barking, leave food or other pets alone, stop jumping or mouthing, whatever). I don't think that a "well-behaved" dog has to be so 100% of the time (but like I said, I don't think that "well-behaved" is a natural, inborn trait anyway). My dogs won't touch my food if I'm there, but if I were to set it within reach and leave the apartment? Hell yeah, they'd eat it! They didn't chase the cats 90% of the time when we lived with my mom and brother, but occasionally the cats would run around crazily and the dogs couldn't help but chase. They usually greet me politely, but if they're really excited to see me, they squeal and jump and spin around. 

So yeah, I think that any dog (or at least most dogs) can be taught to be well-behaved, to some definition.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Regarding the "subtle cues" that some of you say your dog picks up on...
> Kit is able to pick up on many extremely subtle cues from me. And if she knows what I want, then great, she'll do that. That's a biddable dog for you. But if I don't give a cue at all, her go-to behavior is always going to be the naughty choice. It's like that saying "don't eat the daisies". If you don't want her to eat the daisies, you'd better tell her. And you'll have to tell her next time. And the time after that. For the rest of her life. Because she really wants to eat those daisies.
> 
> I wonder if it might be a matter of motivation. Kit jumps on people because she finds it rewarding. I can tell her not to, and she will abide. I can give a treat to reinforce not jumping and I can make that treat more rewarding than the act of jumping. But no matter how much training I do, unless I implement some kind of punishment (like a knee to the chest or a shock collar) I'll never convince her that it's not rewarding to jump on people. And given the amount of joy that she derives from jumping, I think I'd need a pretty strong aversive, which I'm not willing to apply.
> ...


Ugh I would pull my hair out with that kind of dog, I hate having to remind a dog over & over again , mine usually make the right choice on their own, but if they don't they are repremanded for & the. Rewards in one way or the other when they make the right choice so the right choice is consistently the more rewarding one.

Example: messing with the potted plants (they are up where they can't get them but Josefina used to try)
Getting out of the yard
Messing with items I deem off limits (whatever they may be)

All result in time out/loss of privladges, the "right" decisions are heavily positively reinforced so they are more rewarding the the wrong choice.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I have a high energy gun dog who has no manners, but yes, I do expect him to have some manners some day. Rather than telling him to do everything, we work a lot on making good choices. For example, I could tell him to go to his mat while I'm making dinner, and reinforce a down stay. Instead, I taught him that the mat is a good place to be and he can choose to be there and cheese might magically appear, but I generally don't cue him to go there now. I get tired of telling him to get off or to leave it 100 times a day. I do set him up for success though and I don't expect things I know he's not ready for (unsupervised time in the house, for example)


He sounds like my mom's dog, except you're actually training your wild gun dog puppy! I'm pretty sure hers can sit...LOL. But he's small enough and good natured enough that I guess she's not inclined to put more training in him. Were he mine he'd be both better trained and better behaved.  (damn dog has zero concept of impulse control)

My dogs do mat work as well for meal times, LOL. I wasn't suggesting that energetic, driven dogs can't be "well-behaved" but I was curious as to how aware people are of just how much effort that takes, especially if they haven't had this kind of dog. It means things like mat work, tons of impulse control work, big time management, realistic expectations, and as you said, setting them up for success. In most situations, it's easier for me and my dogs to use obedience to get through our day, though make no mistake, we do have some rules here. 

Also, I'm imagining "well-behaved" as the commonplace definition - no jumping up, no pulling on lead, disinclined to get into things, not too much barking, etc. 

I have trouble quoting on this iPad, but as MrsBoats said, some of the best working dogs are not naturally inclined towards being well-behaved. Can they be made well-behaved? Sure! But it's a hell of a lot more difficult with that kind of dog than it is with a lower drive, more docile dog, especially if you'd like to avoid heavy-handed punishment and shutting the dog down. 

And I have to agree with the fresh and naughty comment. Nothing makes me laugh harder than turning around to see my corgi on the kitchen table, looking right back at me like, "What?" I like bad doggies!


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

And just for giggles....ROFL

Lars being well trained and well behaved:






Lars being "well trained"...but being very naughty. LOL Like the punch to the face?? That was 3 points.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Emily1188 said:


> He sounds like my mom's dog, except you're actually training your wild gun dog puppy! I'm pretty sure hers can sit...LOL. But he's small enough and good natured enough that I guess she's not inclined to put more training in him. Were he mine he'd be both better trained and better behaved.  (damn dog has zero concept of impulse control)


Impulse control is extremely hard for him. He can heel next to me in class, and is really good, but the second I release him he will pull to the end of the leash to get to the little white fluffy dog and play - zero impulse control if I'm not managing what he's doing. He's also very young, but definitely not a dog who has any natural impulse control. At least he's biddable. Haha

The dog I mentioned who was "naturally" well behaved was a mini schnauzer, and she was a very soft dog and a bit nervy, which I'm sure was the reason for her good behavior. She actually loved to train and learn and was food motivated (for what little training we did with her), but I wouldn't call her particularly high drive.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Impulse control is extremely hard for him. He can heel next to me in class, and is really good, but the second I release him he will pull to the end of the leash to get to the little white fluffy dog and play - zero impulse control if I'm not managing what he's doing. He's also very young, but definitely not a dog who has any natural impulse control. At least he's biddable. Haha
> 
> The dog I mentioned who was "naturally" well behaved was a mini schnauzer, and she was a very soft dog and a bit nervy, which I'm sure was the reason for her good behavior. She actually loved to train and learn and was food motivated (for what little training we did with her), but I wouldn't call her particularly high drive.


Yours is a Welshie, yeah? He's super cute and sounds like a hell of good time!!! I have a soft spot for spaniels.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Emily1188 said:


> Yours is a Welshie, yeah? He's super cute and sounds like a hell of good time!!! I have a soft spot for spaniels.


Yep  I'm a big fan of the spaniels as a group too.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> Also, I'm imagining "well-behaved" as the commonplace definition - no jumping up, no pulling on lead, disinclined to get into things, not too much barking, etc.


Some of that is taught, though... no dog is born just knowing how to walk nicely on a leash, a human invention. Jumping up, if discouraged while young (either intentionally or just through us not paying attention when he dog jumps), may never be an issue, while if it's encouraged, a dog will probably continue to do it. Whether or not a dog is vocal is inborn, although we can encourage or discourage barking (my papillon WANTS to bark much more than she does; she's learned to bark once if she hears someone outside my apartment door, and then run to me. She used to bark like crazy when we first moved here). Curiosity/inclination to explore and get into things is probably genetic, but again, the good manners result from natural personality (same way you'd probably consider a shy, quiet child to be "well-mannered," but was that child born well-mannered, or is it a combination of natural personality and how she was raised? I guess we're getting into a nature vs. nurture thing).

I don't think that many dogs are well-behaved 100% of the time, either. My AKK walks very nicely on a leash, right by my heel, lots of slack in the leash... except for sometimes when he sees a loose, running dog. Then he'll try to drag me (he's only 18lbs, so does not succeed) or stop and whine/yip at me out of frustration. If he's really amped up, I have to pick him up to stop him from pulling so hard, and he'll screech like I'm murdering him. He goes from well-behaved to hellion in the blink of an eye.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

"Well-behaved" is so completely subjective it's hard to really answer this. To my mom, well-behaved dogs do not get on the furniture but she doesn't seem to mind if they beg at the table - and I'm the exact opposite. 

I'm pretty loose; for me, "well behaved" mostly means I can live with them without being driven insane by their behavior or constantly be thinking about what the dogs are doing. This includes going away and chilling out when I ask them to, probably one of my most specific and most important "well behaved" criteria... although with Pace McPacerton in the house I've even learned to relax that somewhat.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

sassafras said:


> "Well-behaved" is so completely subjective....for me, "well behaved" mostly means I can live with them without being driven insane by their behavior or constantly be thinking about what the dogs are doing."/
> 
> 
> > ^^^This.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

My dogs, in general, haven't been trained a lot. I usually didn't teach them to do many tricks, but they learned the basics. Sit, stay, loose leash walking, not to jump, etc. I'd say I always focused more on socialization. In most of the dogs I raised, it was more important to me that they'd be able to go almost anywhere with me and not be a nuisance to other people than if they knew a lot of commands.

I'd like to get further into training, but for me, well-behaved is a more important goal. I like a dog that doesn't hurt me or my guests by jumping all over them and that I can have out and with us while we eat without worrying about food being stolen. I like a dog that is playful, but knows that humans aren't always so tough and you need to play gently with them. I like a dog that children can be around and also older adults that aren't as sturdy or steady on their feet.

And yeah, I like to think/hope I can have all that without killing their spirits because who doesn't love to see a dog exuberantly being a dog?


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

sharpei said:


> in my opinion a well trained dog is well behaved. a well trained dog is trained not to exhibit the "bad" behavior (without commands), just because a dog can obey tons of commands it doesn't make it well trained. if the dog is acting wildly and out of control it means its training in those areas is lacking greatly. focusing training on tricks and leaving out the manners leaves you with a semi trained dog (in my opinion). so I would say my view of well trained and well behaved are different from yours. please dont think I am saying your wrong and I'm right I am just offering my view on it.


I agree with you on this one. My Pirate knew a ton of tricks, and was learning new ones' almost everyday....but he was nuisance, constantly in to something, chewing something he shouldn't, he was so terrible on a leash I couldn't walk him alone. He also was extremely excited to see people and it was hard to get him not to jump....these were all things we worked on with him, but he wasn't just naturally inclined to do them. lol There wasn't a trick he couldn't master though.


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## AsylumBulldogs (Mar 30, 2013)

My dog is very well trained but she also well behaved. I dont think a dog can be well trained and NOT well behaved, it kind of goes hand in hand, doesn't it?
If you have the control to have your dog listen to you, it should listen and respect you no matter what. and have good manners, developing good manners takes training as well.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

AsylumBulldogs said:


> My dog is very well trained but she also well behaved. I dont think a dog can be well trained and NOT well behaved, it knd of goes hand in hand, doesn't it?


Someone else nailed it with 'well trained at WHAT'. Sometimes the answer is not 'manners'. 

And some well mannered dogs (though what that means is subjective), ignoring the whole 'did you teach them on purpose or not' aspects, don't know anything BUT manners.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Sometimes it doesn't does & sometimes it doesn't, I agree with sass, "well behaved" is subjective


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## AsylumBulldogs (Mar 30, 2013)

It takes training to teach good manners, and well behaved is basic manners and respect. Training doesnt end at sit, stay, down, come, paw and other tricks. Teaching manners takes time as well.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

AsylumBulldogs said:


> It takes training to teach good manners, and well behaved is basic manners and respect. Training doesnt end at sit, stay, down, come, paw and other tricks. Teaching manners takes time as well.


But I don't care about most manners, lol. I'm interested in dog sports and having dogs that are mannerly isn't something I care about spending time on. I spend most of my time training formal behaviors for competition in various venues. 

Ex: my corgi pulls on leash, but when cued to, does competitive OB style attention heeling. *shrug* It's all relative.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> But I don't care about most manners, lol. I'm interested in dog sports and having dogs that are mannerly isn't something I care about spending time on. I spend most of my time training formal behaviors for competition in various venues.
> 
> Ex: my corgi pulls on leash, but when cued to, does competitive OB style attention heeling. *shrug* It's all relative.


That just means that you don't prioritize training manners, not that your dog is naturally ill-behaved. No issue with that, of course, as long as you're happy with the dog. 

Back on the subject of "naturally" well-behaved... I still don't like it when people claim that dogs are naturally well-behaved or badly-behaved. I feel like it's an excuse. Kind of like when people say, "Oh, this is a naturally stubborn breed, so I'll never be able to teach him anything" and then don't even try. He just needs more motivation to learn. Some dogs learn manners more easily, some are more naturally calm and therefore don't need to be taught as many manners, but all dogs learn them to some degree; they're not born that way (like my friend pointed out, humans aren't born knowing to pee in a toilet or eat using silverware, either... manners are all learned).


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> That just means that you don't prioritize training manners, not that your dog is naturally ill-behaved. No issue with that, of course, as long as you're happy with the dog.


That's...exactly what I was saying? I don't care about manners and they do not constitute part of "well-trained" for my dogs. 

I kind of hold it as self-evident that no dogs come with perfect manners. But tbh, if you truly believe my rough, driven, loud, high energy dogs aren't more inclined to be "badly-behaved" than my roommate's dog who is low energy, low drive, physically gentle by default, quiet, and extremely soft, then I will simply have to chalk it up to us having very different experiences in life and with dogs, lol. Her dog walks calmly to the door in the morning and keeps 4 on the floor when excited without any training. Those are just his natural inclinations. No one trained him to be so easy going in the house, he just is. Mine OTOH are inclined to run circles, bark, and jump up. Could they be trained to behave like he does? Yeah - with a LOT of constant effort, sure. 

Dogs don't come with manners installed but they also don't come blank, and I can't agree that certain dogs don't have tendencies that make them more or less difficult in regards to what the genera public considers "good behavior". 

My roommate's dog is the best mannered dog in this house and has BY FAR the least training, formal or behavioral, of any dogs living here. He didn't even have to trained to walk on leash, he's just soft enough that he general avoids straining into his collar because the pressure makes him sad.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> But tbh, if you truly believe my rough, driven, loud, high energy dogs aren't more inclined to be "badly-behaved" than my roommate's dog who is low energy, low drive, physically gentle by default, quiet, and extremely soft, then I will simply have to chalk it up to us having very different experiences in life and with dogs, lol.


I don't think I've argued against that idea in this thread at all. It's obvious that some dogs are more inclined to be what we'd generally consider "well-behaved" than others are, based on temperament and breed and energy level and whatnot (as well as how much effort their owners care to put into training manners). All I've been saying is that "well-behaved" is both subjective _and_ not an inborn trait, in and of itself.  Dogs may be naturally lazy or non-inquisitive or quiet or have a low prey drive, making them much easier to train in general household manners than a high-energy, curious, barky dog with a high prey drive, but they're not born well-mannered. I think most of us in this thread are actually agreeing with each other, but it's just a matter of semantics.

(Also, I may not own herders, or dogs as high-energy as yours, but my own dogs aren't low-energy -- both breeds are described as lively/active in their standards, and mine are pretty typical of their breeds. I believe they could have been hellions in the wrong hands, or if I didn't regularly exercise them. I don't think they're "naturally" well-behaved dogs -- I put more work into the AKK than I did the papillon, but she is a very eager-to-please dog and half "taught herself" good household manners just through observing what I liked and didn't like.)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Meh - I don't think about it.

Especially considering I try to train Wally so that he does the "right" thing on his own based on situation/context/environment. 

Based on some of what I see here - He's well-trained when he's well-behaved since I'm training him to be behaved.

I guess. *shrug* I don't believe in "good" or "bad" behaviors. Just ones I can use or ones I haven't found a good application for yet. If Wally does something I don't want - I try to find a way to turn it into something I do want, not that he's showing 'bad behavior' or 'misbehaving'. 

So I guess I'm neutral - don't really have an opinion regarding where Wally is on the scale.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> but they're not born well-mannered


I mildly disagree with this.

Calming signals are largely dogs trying to be "polite" around each other and with their people. It's just not considered as such in a human-focused view.

Some dogs may or may not be inclined to use signals in all situations (which is why I only mildly disagree), but some probably are if the 5783 signals per day Wally gives me are any indication.


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## katbou (Jan 24, 2012)

Put my pup in the group with smart, easy to train dog with bad manners. Hoping some of it is his age, but while he picks up tricks very easily and is very smart, not so much with everyday manners. No doubt he can learn to be better behaved, but absolutely no doubt it will be much harder for him and take more time than it would many other dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

KBLover said:


> I mildly disagree with this.
> 
> Calming signals are largely dogs trying to be "polite" around each other and with their people. It's just not considered as such in a human-focused view.
> 
> Some dogs may or may not be inclined to use signals in all situations (which is why I only mildly disagree), but some probably are if the 5783 signals per day Wally gives me are any indication.


I think that calming signals are different from what most people consider good household manners, though. Most owners don't even recognize calming signals. I can agree with you that some dogs may be born "polite" in a dog sense (although it may also be how they grew up with siblings and mom), but not born naturally understanding human (household) manners.

A friend shared this on Facebook today, and I thought it was apt:


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I love that, Crantastic


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I have an old farm dog (probably **** hound/rottie mix) that is naturally well behaved. He has never jumped on people, doesn't bite, lick, pester, dig, chew, wander off, never had to house train him, won't take food off the table, the list goes on. He isn't shut down at all. He is very low drive, though he loves food, has no hunt, prey, or toy drive. Really the only thing Chester does wrong is growl during nail trims. 

The rest of my pack, are well trained for the most part, but naturally are hell raisers and need to be reminded several times daily, even hourly, to mind their manners lol.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Great post Crantastic!

I think that "naturally" well behaved dogs have a lot to do with how "drivy" they are. A working dog with a lot of drive needs purpose in life, if they have that it means that they are worked with and "learn to learn". A dog that's worked with picks up cues from people much easier than a dog that has to figure it all out on it's own. A dog with high 'drive' that's not worked with is usually the dog that's a pest in the best kind of scenario and dangerous in the worst.


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## Lilly111 (Feb 1, 2013)

Hi, I'd take well behaved over well trained any day, and I don't think well behaved equates with being 'subdued' I have an 8 month old Beauceron and have only found it necessary to reinforce what he does naturally, his recall is good but then whenever he's off the lead he keeps an eye on where I am, he may not always respond immediately to 'ici' but 'au revoir' and walking away will have him come running full tilt, he loves people and quickly learned that jumping up, licking people and bouncing around didn't get him far but enthusiastic 'I'm pleased to meet' meant he could get affection and attention from everyone, a dog that can't cant control his exuberance is a danger to young children and the elderly,who wants to be knocked sideways by a large dog. Jaques natural instinct to be protective means that getting him to 'au pied' (Heel) wasn't too difficult and when off the lead will come to my side and be alert when we are approached, he's learnt all the basic commands Assis (sit) debut (stand) couched (lie down) Reste (stay). Jaques isn't perfect by a long way, so far he's eaten 150€ an expensive pair of earrings and a brand new pair of shoes that I'd never worn, he chases the cats and tractors and loves nothing better than to swim in the local stream and roll in unmentionable things when the only way of getting home is in the car, he steals my neighbours flowerpots and has an addiction to tissues that appears to be unbreakable. At 15 months he will start agility and herding training, by the age of three Jaques should be a well trained and well behaved dog without losing any of his natural personality and spontaneity when you put in equal time to both you end up with a contented well rounded happy popular dog that you can take anywhere which is important here in France as where I live there are few places where you can't take dogs and its not unusual to see them in restaurants and shops (where they need to behave) so when I go out Jaques doesn't need to be left at home oh and he's bi lingual ..... When he wants to be


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## Akira223 (Jul 8, 2012)

Akira is well behaved and not well trained. 

She's quiet, and for the most part pretty calm

Has excellent house manners, I never once fed her people food from the counters or allow guests to feed her from the table which has made her uninterested in what we're eating. She'll only stick her nose up and see what smells so good if I'm preparing raw chicken.. which.. well.. usually I give her the skin and fatty bits in a bowl when I'm done ;P regardless, she sits and waits patiently without pacing or sounds. Just an intent look and a wagging tail. 

She's not allowed on the carpets or furniture (90lb GSD) the house is all open concept, so she can very well see and be near us at all times while remaining off the couches and staying out of the living room and kids playroom. She very happily lays in her bed and watched the kids throw toys around the room, or sleeps in her bed while my husband and I watch TV on the couch. 

The worst she'll do is stick her nose in the cupboard if it hasn't been closed all the way and get herself into the garbage... (actually just a few days ago she pulled out some cooked chicken bones while I was scrubbing the shower, and like a fool, I panicked and stuck my hands in her mouth to try and get them out, and in her attempt to gobble them down before I took the oh so delicious bones away, she chomped down on my finger pretty bad!), She has a few items that she manages to continually find and bring into her cage. socks, my leather house slippers, a small plastic ball in she shape of a boulder, and a plastic screw (both toys from the playroom) I don't know how.. or why.. but she always seems to seek them out and hoard them! She doesn't even chew on them, she just collects them in her crate 

Outdoors however.... she chases joggers, runs up to people walking by.. she's not aggressive at all, she just runs up and sniffs them, then runs back to me. She's gone after a paticular jogger twice now however, the last incident I was throwing a frisbee around with Akira in the back yard, and akira saw the woman and ran after her with her frisbee in her mouth.... in fact she never let go of the frisbee, but the woman yelled get back and swatted at akira... akira came back to me after her investigation... but I sure don't want AC called by a non dog lover claiming a viscous GSD is chasing her when she goes for a run... (I mean really.. how scary is a dog running up to you tail wagging with a bright pink frisbee in her mouth...) 
Her focus on me outside is not so great... I can't tell you the number of times I've been 3 ft away from her, calling her, clapping, anything to get her attention, but she won't take her eyes off of the leaves blown by the wind in the woods that might have been a chipmunk... her recall is pretty good, always comes when called unless she's seen another dog

I can't allow her to jump on people or become too excited with people as she's way too big and powerful. She was trained early on that she won't get any attention unless all four paws are on the ground, which has made her great with my toddlers. She ADORES children. She sits quietly and becomes very calm, she lays down and lets them pull on her paws, play with her tail and stick their fingers on and in her mouth, she just lays there wagging her tail and gives them occasional licks. Even when we're out in public, when she sees a child, she gets so excited, all focus is on them and she just hopes that they will come over and give her attention. She gets upset when kids cry, goes over to them like a mum goes to her crying pup, licks them gently and sniffs every inch of them. 

She was the runt of the litter, quiet, timid and picked on by the alpha pup, but she was well socialized and her play nibbles were super gentle... we knew she was perfect for a family with young kids.


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## Lilly111 (Feb 1, 2013)

My dog takes specific things into his crate to hoard them, my mobile phone seems to be a favourite along with any piece of my clothing that is available it's really odd


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I would take well behaved over well trained lol, buddy & Yumi are well behaved but not that well trained (they know the basics but that's it) bear is both (is a multiple agility & obedience champion) well behaved & well trained. Josefina is well trained but given the choice she won't behave, she always had to be reminded to behave :/


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