# Where to start...?



## KristenW (Sep 18, 2013)

Hello. I'm a new member here, stumbling across this site as I looked for dog show information. In the future, when I am out of college, I would like to start showing dogs. I showed horses for four years, and have always loved and owned dogs, and have been interested in showing them. I don't know where to really start with looking up the how-to's and where to go though. I am interested in the conformation part of it, and have done a little bit of reading so far.

I have a few questions though.

When picking the breed you show, is it good for a beginner to pick a popular breed or a breed that isn't as popular?

And when you pick out a puppy or a breed, what do you look for in the puppy? What are good questions to ask the breeders and to look for?

Thanks,
Kristen.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Oo, fun thread. I'm a newbie in conformation (first show dog, who now has 5 points) so here's what I've learned, and my opinions on it. I'm sure those who have been doing it for a while will have other great advice.

A little about how I started in conformation: I was looking for a Welsh springer as a pet, and to do some low level rally/obedience/agility/sports with. The show buyer for my litter fell through, and my breeder thought Watson was such a nice dog that she convinced me to try showing him, since I was the most likely person to actually attend a show, vs the other pet buyers in the litter. So far we have been to 6 shows and has has 5 points. 

For picking a breed, I would start with one you can live with. If you pick a dog you would enjoy as a pet, you will enjoy showing it. Beyond that, consider grooming requirements. I have a breed that requires more grooming than a short coated breed, but less than many, and I find it's a good mix for me. I don't mind spending 1-2 hours on trimming and grooming before a show, but I wouldn't want a breed that required constant weekly grooming (like a terrier) or was judged based on quality of grooming (like a poodle). So that's a personal preference. Talk to breeders about how much time they spend on grooming on a weekly basis, and before shows, and how difficult they think it is for a newbie to get the hang of.

As far as rarity goes, I actually like having a rare breed. It is harder to find majors, and shows with any Welshies entered at all sometimes, but I've found the breed as a whole to be welcoming and full of other owner/handlers like myself who are welcoming to new people. Their goal is to improve the quality of the breed and increase it's popularity, so any newcomers willing to show dogs is a good thing in their minds. Very popular breeds (labs, goldens, GSDs) tend to be extremely competitive, and hard for a newbie to break into. Despite my poor handling skills and the fact that I have a puppy, I've been able to win almost every show I've entered because I have a nice dog and he shows well. In another breed, we'd get destroyed until I had more experience, and he had matured quite a bit. Some people might enjoy the challenge of getting into a competitive breed, but it's not for me. Of course, having a breed that is so rare you can never find a major in your region is also not fun. 

I don't have much experience on picking puppies. For your first dog (or couple dogs) I think you will rely heavily on the breeder for this. My breeder has been in the breed for 30 years, so she knows her stuff. I couldn't begin to pick out a quality dog from a group of 8 week old puppies - it's hard enough for me to pick out the best quality dog in a group of properly stacked adults at a show. So find a breeder you trust, who knows his or her breed, and trust their opinion. They will also likely be your first mentor, so finding someone who is willing to help you out is important. Some breeders aren't interested in selling show puppies to newbies (for the fear that they won't actually show the dog), but many will be willing to work with you, so don't get discouraged. Finding someone nearby is also great, because they can attend shows with you, help with grooming, etc instead of just helping over the phone.

When you actually get your pup, I would recommend signing up for handling classes as soon as you've done some basic puppy classes and obedience. I didn't sign up until Watson was 6-7 months, but there were puppies in the class as young as 4 months and they got a nice head start. I learned a ton from my classes and couldn't have gone to a show without them. I learned the basics of handling, but also had someone to ask about what I should wear, how to sign up for shows, which shows were a good place to start out, and how things would work on the day of the show. I took a handling seminar this past weekend with a professional handler and that was also fantastic now that I have the basics - lots of tips and ideas that were simple to implement, but I never would have considered.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Another thing I thought of is to consider whether you would like a male or a female. The best females will be used for breeding, which means that you may have to co-own a girl with the breeder. The breeder will also expect her to be bred at some point, if she turns out as expected. If you have no interest in raising a litter, or letting your breeder take your dog back for a while to raise a litter, you might be better off with a male. Show quality males tend to be easier to get, especially for a newbie, because it's not expected that they will be bred eventually, but the breeder still wants a show home if she has a nice male pup.

In my breed, females are typically co-owned by the breeder and at least one or two other people, with contracts stating when and how she will be bred, and who will raise the litter and put their kennel name on the puppies. Males, by contrast, are often owned outright by their owners, with the contract only stating that they can't be bred until they have finished their championship and passed certain health screenings.

If you are interested in getting a female and starting your own breeding program, definitely find a fantastic mentor and do a lot of reading. Also, find the best female you possibly can, since she will be the foundation of your kennel.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Let me start by saying: I do not show (I do not even own a purebred dog, technically), but I do have some interest in showing. But I don't really know anything. lol.



> When picking the breed you show, is it good for a beginner to pick a popular breed or a breed that isn't as popular?
> 
> And when you pick out a puppy or a breed, what do you look for in the puppy? What are good questions to ask the breeders and to look for?


I would personally start by picking a breed that you like, that matches your lifestyle and your wants and needs in a dog as a companion, rather than pick a breed based on popularity. I guess with a less popular breed you'd be more likely to win ribbons? There are lots of breeds that are quite similar, so I would also look for a breed that has the best community for me, or rather the community into which I felt I fit the best.

I would get a pup from a reputable breeder (there are LOTS of threads and info on here that discuss what that actually means), and specifically for a pup for showing, I would look for a reputable breeder who actually shows her dogs. Going even further, I would look for a breeder who I got along really well with, who I would be able to built a mentoring relationship with as my puppy grows up. If you tell the breeder up-front that you're interested in showing, it will probably affect her opinion of which of her puppies would be best for you.

And like elrohwen said, I'd sign up for a handling class, if there is one in your area. I didn't even know they were a thing until she had posted about signing up Watson a few months ago.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I guess with a less popular breed you'd be more likely to win ribbons?


Yes and no. With a rare breed I don't have to beat many other dogs to win and earn points. On the other hand, the day a Welsh Springer wins best in show is a day that everyone in the breed celebrates. Haha. Doing well beyond the breed level doesn't seem to have much to do with how popular or rare a breed is, but I know some breeds just don't do well and others are constantly winning best in show. If it's important to you to get to that level, choose a breed with that in mind. 



> I would get a pup from a reputable breeder (there are LOTS of threads and info on here that discuss what that actually means), and specifically for a pup for showing, I would look for a reputable breeder who actually shows her dogs. Going even further, I would look for a breeder who I got along really well with, who I would be able to built a mentoring relationship with as my puppy grows up. If you tell the breeder up-front that you're interested in showing, it will probably affect her opinion of which of her puppies would be best for you.


I would not buy a pup with the intention of showing unless the parents were already champions, pending some really good reason why they are not. One of the parents might be fantastic, but have a fault caused by an accident that prevented them from finishing. Or in some breeds it's extremely hard to finish a dog, so the parents having some points might be good enough, but in most breeds you want at least a Ch. In certain breeds, performance titles might be important too. Beyond that, I wouldn't buy a pup for showing that the breeder did not consider a show prospect, and you should go to a breeder who can competently pick the best pup out of the litter. It's not something you should be expected to do as a newbie. You're going to have a frustrating time showing a dog who isn't structured well, or who has obvious faults, so if it's not the pick of the litter, or a close second, I wouldn't bother.

Temperament is important too. It's going to much more difficult to show a dog who is naturally timid. It's not impossible, with a lot of work, but it's a lot easier to start out with a dog who is naturally comfortable in the chaotic show environment and has a great attitude, vs a dog who tucks his tail and backs away from the judge. Of course, early socialization is really important for this too.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Yes and no. With a rare breed I don't have to beat many other dogs to win and earn points. On the other hand, the day a Welsh Springer wins best in show is a day that everyone in the breed celebrates. Haha. Doing well beyond the breed level doesn't seem to have much to do with how popular or rare a breed is, but I know some breeds just don't do well and others are constantly winning best in show. If it's important to you to get to that level, choose a breed with that in mind.


Yeah... If you want to win Best In Show at Westminster, don't get a retriever of any variety. On the other hand, terriers and spaniels seem to do pretty well, generally.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> Yeah... If you want to win Best In Show at Westminster, don't get a retriever of any variety. On the other hand, terriers and *spaniels* seem to do pretty well, generally.


Just not the Welsh ones. Haha


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Just not the Welsh ones. Haha


Don't feel bad. I don't think a retriever of any sort (Flat-coated, Laborador, Golden, Tolling) has ever won. Ever. And Spitz-types don't fare so well either.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> Don't feel bad. I don't think a retriever of any sort (Flat-coated, Laborador, Golden, Tolling) has ever won. Ever. And Spitz-types don't fare so well either.


Yeah, the flashier dogs tend to win if you're competing at a group or best in show level. I read the blog "Dog Show Poop" which lists BIS and reserve BIS winners at shows around the country, and it's interesting to see which dogs and breeds are winning a lot of BIS.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, the flashier dogs tend to win if you're competing at a group or best in show level. I read the blog "Dog Show Poop" which lists BIS and reserve BIS winners at shows around the country, and it's interesting to see which dogs and breeds are winning a lot of BIS.


The part that I don't get is how things like bows in the hair (or a poodle's show cut) are a feature of the dog. I don't get it. At that point I feel like the dog isn't being judged for being a DOG, but rather some kind of four-legged doll. I mean, I get it, you want your dog to look nice, but I just don't get why a specific (and hilariously and definitely unnatural) hair cut is a feature to judge on.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> Don't feel bad. I don't think a retriever of any sort (Flat-coated, Laborador, Golden, Tolling) has ever won. Ever. And Spitz-types don't fare so well either.


Oh yes all 4 of those have taken Best in Show at different shows around the USA or Canada

Just a quick Google search here are the first ones to pop up right away
Golden Retriever
http://www.shorlinegoldens.com/mariner.html

Flat Coated Retriever
http://www.featherquest.com/ms.nala.htm

Labrador Retriever
http://www.lighthouselabradors.com/mason.htm

Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever
http://www.roaneden.com/page2.html

You just have to know what to search for  Any dog with the letters BIS before their name has gotten a "Best In Show" award


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Keechak said:


> Oh yes all 4 of those have taken Best in Show at different shows around the USA or Canada


But not at Westminster (which is what I was referring to). Which is the "Grand Poobah" of dog shows, is it not?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> But not at Westminster (which is what I was referring to). Which is the "Grand Poobah" of dog shows, is it not?


Oh I didn't notice the mention of Westminster sorry. Yes Westminster is a fairly big timer show, Your dog has to have won at least 1 major at another show bare minimum to attempt to enter. And even that isn't a guarantee of getting in.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Keechak said:


> Oh I didn't notice the mention of Westminster sorry. Yes Westminster is a fairly big timer show, Your dog has to have won at least 1 major at another show bare minimum to attempt to enter. And even that isn't a guarantee of getting in.


What is considered a "major"? BIS? Or best in group?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> What is considered a "major"? BIS? Or best in group?


A Major win is any "Winners dog" or "Winners bitch" win ("Winners" is the level before "Best of breed") that is worth 3 or more points. "Major" is actually the name givin to the points, A dog has to get 2 Major wins with 15 points in the AKC to be eligible to get their Championship. Hawkeye has one Major Win in ASCA (ASCA requires 3 Major wins) Wins worth 1 or 2 points are called "Minor" wins or sometimes "Singles"


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

To piggyback on Keechak's description, I can win a major if Watson beats 3 other dogs. Since I have a rare breed, the numbers to beat are really low. In something like Golden retrievers, you might have to beat 15-20 dogs (depending on your region) to get 3 points, and even more for 4 or 5 points. So in some breeds, majors are extremely hard to come by. In others, like mine, it's really not that hard if you keep trying. Watson's cousin finished his championship at 14 months old in one weekend, getting three majors of 5 points each to reach the total of 15 points. That's not a common feat by any means, but it's possible in rare breeds with a really nice dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Keechak said:


> Oh yes all 4 of those have taken Best in Show at different shows around the USA or Canada
> 
> Just a quick Google search here are the first ones to pop up right away
> Golden Retriever
> ...


Am I crazy, or is that lab faaaaaaaat?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Am I crazy, or is that lab faaaaaaaat?


Yes, labs shown in conformation are often kept quite heavy.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

elrohwen said:


> Yes, labs shown in conformation are often kept quite heavy.


My, my , oh my. If you want to start a big rant, talk to any handler who shows Labs in obedience or agility about the "breed" Labs - you'll get an earful. And if you want to add some colorful language to that rant, talk to anyone who works Labs in field trials ;-)

And to the OP: this is something to keep in mind when choosing your breed. Some breeds have separate "show lines" and "working lines". It's unfortunate, but true.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Poly said:


> My, my , oh my. If you want to start a big rant, talk to any handler who shows Labs in obedience or agility about the "breed" Labs - you'll get an earful. And if you want to add some colorful language to that rant, talk to anyone who works Labs in field trials ;-)


Yeah, I've heard that there's a lot of disagreement there among lab people. Most sporting breeds are to be shown in "hard muscled working condition" (that's how the Welshie standard puts it) so it always surprises me that the labs are so flabby. It seems completely counter to what the breed was bred for.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Paps around here have one of the highest entries. We never had fewer than 12 dogs and our largest show had 50 dogs. Beau finished in that show taking BOW. BOB ended up going to the #1 papillon in the country.

Beau still finished in just a handful of shows even with the higher entry numbers. I found he either got nothing or took WD/BOW. Depended on the judge. The times he lost it was pretty clear the judge liked a totally different breed type.

Conformation is totally not for me though. I don't think I'd do it again.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Conformation is totally not for me though. I don't think I'd do it again.


I'll admit that it's not really my favorite activity ever, and I don't plan to show Watson as a special. However, I've decided that I do really like it for young dogs. Many people get their puppies used to shows by taking them along with an older dog who is competing in a sport, but since I only have one dog he didn't have that opportunity. Showing him in conformation has been a fantastic way to get him used to the show environment and socialize him for when we're ready to do rally or obedience or whatever, so I appreciate it for that reason. I will probably show my next dog as well, for something to do as a puppy.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I wholeheartedly agree with finding a breed you like and would chose without regard to showing. Most of the breeders I know started with a pet (or two) of their chosen breed, fell in love, and then started exploring showing.



elrohwen said:


> I'll admit that it's not really my favorite activity ever, and I don't plan to show Watson as a special. However, I've decided that I do really like it for young dogs. Many people get their puppies used to shows by taking them along with an older dog who is competing in a sport, but since I only have one dog he didn't have that opportunity. Showing him in conformation has been a fantastic way to get him used to the show environment and socialize him for when we're ready to do rally or obedience or whatever, so I appreciate it for that reason. I will probably show my next dog as well, for something to do as a puppy.


A breeder I know wrote a great comment on a message board about how conformation showing is a good temperament test for potential breeding dogs whose pups (or most of the pups) would be destined for pet homes. Dogs with poor temperaments would not do well with the travel, crowds, exposure to new environments, judges' exam, proximity to other dogs, and everything else that goes on at shows. 

I wish she would post it on her web site because it's good information for people who want "just a pet" or "not a show dog."


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> A breeder I know wrote a great comment on a message board about how conformation showing is a good temperament test for potential breeding dogs whose pups (or most of the pups) would be destined for pet homes. Dogs with poor temperaments would not do well with the travel, crowds, exposure to new environments, judges' exam, proximity to other dogs, and everything else that goes on at shows.


That's a really good way to put it. A dog show doesn't test whether or not your dog has the correct temperament for its breed (unless it's a companion breed maybe), but it definitely tests if a dog is generally stable, confident, and adaptable. It's really a very strange and chaotic place for most dogs, and one with a temperament to take it all in stride is going to do well in a family with people coming over, traveling for vacation, seeing other dogs on walks, etc.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> That's a really good way to put it. *A dog show doesn't test whether or not your dog has the correct temperament for its breed* (unless it's a companion breed maybe), but it definitely tests if a dog is generally stable, confident, and adaptable. It's really a very strange and chaotic place for most dogs, and one with a temperament to take it all in stride is going to do well in a family with people coming over, traveling for vacation, seeing other dogs on walks, etc.


I'm curious about this. Don't some breeds have a correct temperament written into the breed standard and that's judged during the show. Obviously, there's only a very small window when the dog's temperament can be judged, but I think I've read that aloofness or hostility towards the judge would be acceptable in some breeds (e.g., some of the working breeds) but not others. So, if a guarding breed were wary about the judge or a terrier snarked a little at nearby dogs, that behavior (as long as they weren't dangerous) would be acceptable; whereas, if a companion or sporting dog displayed the same behavior, they would be excused.

Again, I understand that the main purpose of a conformation show (and a breed standard) is physical structure, not temperament and that there are better ways to judge temper, but does temperament ever factor into judging?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I'm curious about this. Don't some breeds have a correct temperament written into the breed standard and that's judged during the show. Obviously, there's only a very small window when the dog's temperament can be judged, but I think I've read that aloofness or hostility towards the judge would be acceptable in some breeds (e.g., some of the working breeds) but not others. So, if a guarding breed were wary about the judge or a terrier snarked a little at nearby dogs, that behavior (as long as they weren't dangerous) would be acceptable; whereas, if a companion or sporting dog displayed the same behavior, they would be excused.
> 
> Again, I understand that the main purpose of a conformation show (and a breed standard) is physical structure, not temperament and that there are better ways to judge temper, but does temperament ever factor into judging?


I think it's just impossible to judge if a breed is, say, a good guardian of sheep, or property, or whatever, at a dog show, but those might be very much a part of correct temperament. Of course, you can judge how the dog interacts with people and his general demeanor. I do think dog shows favor the outgoing. In my breed standard, it states that Welshies are reserved with strangers, but should not be timid. Watson is not at all reserved with strangers, and I think that's a plus for him in the ring even though it goes against the standard. On the other hand, some dogs who are reserved also come across as a little timid, so the judge has to decide what is more important. A Welshie who is reserved is unlikely to shine out with personality and spunkiness, but these are the things that catch judges' eyes. 

So yes, temperament factors a lot into the judging decision, but whether the dogs picked are closest to what the standard says temperament should be is another thing. Hopefully judges are appropriately penalizing dogs who obviously don't fit their temperament standard, but I think the dogs who exude attitude are going to win, all else being equal, whether that matches their breed standard or not. This is probably more the case at the group and BIS level, vs the breed level, which is why some breeds win BIS a lot more than others.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I'll admit that it's not really my favorite activity ever, and I don't plan to show Watson as a special. However, I've decided that I do really like it for young dogs. Many people get their puppies used to shows by taking them along with an older dog who is competing in a sport, but since I only have one dog he didn't have that opportunity. Showing him in conformation has been a fantastic way to get him used to the show environment and socialize him for when we're ready to do rally or obedience or whatever, so I appreciate it for that reason. I will probably show my next dog as well, for something to do as a puppy.


I really appreciate this sentiment. I do want to try showing, but I feel like you do - that something like agility or obedience would be more suited to my other interests. I never would have thought about doing it as something to do with a puppy!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I really appreciate this sentiment. I do want to try showing, but I feel like you do - that something like agility or obedience would be more suited to my other interests. I never would have thought about doing it as something to do with a puppy!


Yeah, it's a really good activity for a puppy, because to just get started and get a few points, they really don't need that much training. You just have to get out there and do it. My breeder is surprised I've been showing him so much because she thought I would do rally or obedience first, but he won't be ready for that until at least 2-3 years old minimum so it's a good activity to do now. In some breeds, you're really not going to win much until the dog is mature and filled out, but in more rare breeds it doesn't seem to matter and the judges make allowances for maturity. Watson has shown and won exclusively against dogs 1-2 years older than him in the show ring without an issue.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I think it's just impossible to judge if a breed is, say, a good guardian of sheep, or property, or whatever, at a dog show, but those might be very much a part of correct temperament. Of course, you can judge how the dog interacts with people and his general demeanor. I do think dog shows favor the outgoing. In my breed standard, it states that Welshies are reserved with strangers, but should not be timid. Watson is not at all reserved with strangers, and I think that's a plus for him in the ring even though it goes against the standard. On the other hand, some dogs who are reserved also come across as a little timid, so the judge has to decide what is more important. A Welshie who is reserved is unlikely to shine out with personality and spunkiness, but these are the things that catch judges' eyes.
> 
> So yes, temperament factors a lot into the judging decision, but whether the dogs picked are closest to what the standard says temperament should be is another thing. Hopefully judges are appropriately penalizing dogs who obviously don't fit their temperament standard, but I think the dogs who exude attitude are going to win, all else being equal, whether that matches their breed standard or not. This is probably more the case at the group and BIS level, vs the breed level, which is why some breeds win BIS a lot more than others.


Absolutely agree with you. Obviously, a conformation judge has only a fleeting glimpse into a very narrow aspect of a dog's temperament. But, I have heard things like, "It's ok if dog x seems wary of the judge because that's part of the breed standard." Or, "You can see the breed's good nature in the way dog x plays with his handler." And attitude may trump standard. 

In poodles, according to things I've read, a sparky or vivacious temperament is an important part of having a winning dog. Breeders I've spoken with have talked about selecting a show dog based as much on spark or flair as on structure. They've also talked about dogs who've lacked that spark and how it showed in the ring. In those cases, they've either shown them to the Ch level but not beyond, or pulled them completely to earn other titles. Of course, I've also known of dogs who were downright aggressive towards dogs and people, but continued to be shown (and possibly bred).

Conscientious breeders I've talked to do pay attention to their dog's overall demeanor at shows (or trials or out among the general public) and use that as one consideration for breeding decisions. A dog that doesn't enjoy conformation but shines at obedience is one thing, but a dog that completely shuts down at any competition or bites a judge is entirely different.

Well, this has strayed from the original topic quite a bit. Apologies to the OP.


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