# Clients and Cesar Milan >.<



## Kari's Mom (Dec 5, 2007)

Just a little rant, not sure if it belongs in the training section, feel free to move it if not.

So anyway, I work for a retail company doing dog training, and lately we were selling Cesar Milan's Dog Whisperer season one and two on dvd. I enjoy watching the show but some of his stuff is downright dangerous (for your average person to perform) yet I keep hearing people who tell me they try what Cesar is doing. A young-er girl who has a private class with her dog (boxer) is driving me crazy. Every minute its 'well Cesar says I should do this' or 'well I saw Cesar do this last night'. I was like for the love of god, that 'shh!' noise and touching your dogs neck and (wrongly!) choking your dog with a choke chain or prong collar is not going to fix your problem. Why do people not seem to get what Cesar is doing, its not an instructional video! They never take the parts that they SHOULD get out of it. (Like if your dog is out of control maybe you should think about WALKING HIM! Or your dog is a dog) I continue to explain I teach mostly positive reinforcement and do not allow chain collars or pinch collars in class. I do not allow leash pops in class. Fixing problems and training need to be separated in peoples mind yet ultimately have the same goal. Egh. Sorry for the rant but if I have one more client who tells me Cesar blah blah blah and does exactly what he is preaching not to do, I will have to beat them over the head with his dvd.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Heh. "But he has the _whole_ backyard to himself..." 
Luckily my everyday walking has gotten some of the neighbors to walk theirs too. One group of ten pound yappers at the end of the block have almost completely stopped charging the fence when I go by. All from walking, who'd a thunk it.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

I'm sorry...but I have to admit to chuckling at the mental image of you banging some idiot owner over the head with a Cesar DVD LOL.

It is frightening sometimes how clueless some owners are.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

> Why do people not seem to get what Cesar is doing, its not an instructional video! They never take the parts that they SHOULD get out of it. (Like if your dog is out of control maybe you should think about WALKING HIM! Or your dog is a dog) I continue to explain I teach mostly positive reinforcement and do not allow chain collars or pinch collars in class. I do not allow leash pops in class. Fixing problems and training need to be separated in peoples mind yet ultimately have the same goal.


 Why? People want a quick fix, and they are okay with justifying punishment with belief. Why? Marketing… Each scenario starts with a highlight of how ‘out of control’ a dog is, and the owners complaining about the dog’s behaviors. The scenario ends with these same owners claiming Cesar should be adopted for sainthood. This creates a mystery, a mystery all dog owners want with their own dog(s). So, by emulating Cesar, they are trying to attain that mystery. Why? The show is not exclusively about dogs that need “rehabilitation”…most of the dogs have common problems that the common dog owner can identify with. Why? Dog owners, and even some dog trainers, don’t know what punishment is, when it’s appropriate, or how to use them effectively.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

*Egh. Sorry for the rant but if I have one more client who tells me Cesar blah blah blah and does exactly what he is preaching not to do, I will have to beat them over the head with his dvd.
*
Boy that beating over the head is definitely not positive motivation. You got to practice what you preach.


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

I've definitely heard that rant from my family members who are basically clueless when it comes to dogs. I'll admit, I agree with a lot of what Cesar does, but it has to be done CORRECTLY, meaning your average Joe shouldn't go around trying to rehabilitate dogs. That's why they say not to attempt the techniques yourself at the beginning of each show! I use a lot of his techniques, combined with NILF training, but I also have experience working with professional trainers that use those techniques on a regular basis.

I definitely agree that it's annoying when people will read his book or watch his show and think that they're an expert. I honestly think the hype gives him a really bad name, since people are going out trying out his techniques incorrectly.


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## Amberjam (Jan 11, 2008)

you mean that because i watch the dog whisperer almost every week i shouldnt try to rehabilitate that nasty junkyard dog that tries to rip my head off when i walk past it. you mean i shouldnt go right up to it and give him a "shh" poke in the neck lol... 

i do like his show though. it is interesting, but i completely get it that tv teaching does not make us all professionals... but what a wonderful thing if it could lol!!


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## Kari's Mom (Dec 5, 2007)

wvasko said:


> *Egh. Sorry for the rant but if I have one more client who tells me Cesar blah blah blah and does exactly what he is preaching not to do, I will have to beat them over the head with his dvd.
> *
> Boy that beating over the head is definitely not positive motivation. You got to practice what you preach.


lmao, but the satisfaction would be worth it!!


Most people do want a quick fix, thats why there's prong collars, chain collars, remote collars, bark collars, etc. People don't want to see the root of their dogs problem is mostly themselves, I personally think thats what Cesar says most of the time. HE TRAINS PEOPLE! I think more and more I need to use remote training and clicker training with the owners, see which one they like more


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Oh yeah.. E-collars for them all. LOL

(owners that is, not the dogs)


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Ugh, theres a woman at the dog park whos all about cesar. ive seen her pin her dog on its back more than once, and constantly does the "shh" and leash pop. what peeves me off the most is the one day theres was an "incident". a guy who owns a beautiful germ. shep. whos a little timid (not his fault, he just got the dog and is trying to fix that) came to the park. now the park is an island, and there is an arched bridge to get to it, on the other side of the bridge.... the parking lot *dunn dunn dunnnnnnn* yes, you all know what that means. (i cant tell you how many times ive almost seen dogs get hit because owners think its ok that they are offleash in the parking lot...hello!) anywho! the guy let his dog off the leash too close to the bridge (yes, thats his fault, but everyone makes mistakes) well the womans two dogs ran up to him and he got terrified and booked it over the bridge....of course, theyre dogs, they followed. (one is a pup mind you, maybe 8 months) so there she is, with her BABY STROLLER standing there yelling for him... meanwhile im getting my two on leashes so i can help out. (mine never chased, i said no, they didnt go..simple as that) finally the dogs all come back in and what does she do? pin the PUP on his back and yells "no!".... ok lady, A. hes a DOG he did what he thought was fun. B. hes already forgotten what happened and doesnt know why youre mad! and she turns to me with the "well cesar says to do this" and i just kept my mouth shut. but oh did i want to give her a mouthfull.

but as far as choke and prong collars go. choke i dont agree with AT ALL. but i do use prongs on my girls right now. but they only wear them on walks, and out in public where there are other dogs (petsmart, etc.) and walking over the bridge into the park (or else when its snowy like it is now....i turn into a sled) but its not a quick fix and i understand that. they dont wear them all the time (especially not to play, which i have seen at the dog park and it KILLS me... that and leaving the leash on dragging around, why dont they understand thats dangerous!!) and i work with them with walking without them on at home. i just need some extra control to help them when things get a little crazy. and theyre great on them, of course i never snap them or anything, and the only pressure they get is when they try to pull, and they dont. but no, i know its not a quick fix, and if it hurt them i wouldnt use it. i made sure it wouldnt either (i used it on myself)..... no, not like that...lol


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Elana55 said:


> Oh yeah.. E-collars for them all. LOL


May I have the remote?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

My father used one of those uncontrollable e-collars on one of his labs.

I was curious so I decided to put it on my younger brother (I was about 10, he was 9) and I shocked him.

I think I shortened his lifespan 10 years.

That said, my dad stopped using it after one rainy day, the lab was outside crying constantly so he used it to shut him up. The next thing they see is a bright blue flash like a thunder, and a dog that never whined again.

He got rid of the collar and decided to never use it again.


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> Ugh, theres a woman at the dog park whos all about cesar. ive seen her pin her dog on its back more than once, and constantly does the "shh" and leash pop. what peeves me off the most is the one day theres was an "incident". a guy who owns a beautiful germ. shep. whos a little timid (not his fault, he just got the dog and is trying to fix that) came to the park. now the park is an island, and there is an arched bridge to get to it, on the other side of the bridge.... the parking lot *dunn dunn dunnnnnnn* yes, you all know what that means. (i cant tell you how many times ive almost seen dogs get hit because owners think its ok that they are offleash in the parking lot...hello!) anywho! the guy let his dog off the leash too close to the bridge (yes, thats his fault, but everyone makes mistakes) well the womans two dogs ran up to him and he got terrified and booked it over the bridge....of course, theyre dogs, they followed. (one is a pup mind you, maybe 8 months) so there she is, with her BABY STROLLER standing there yelling for him... meanwhile im getting my two on leashes so i can help out. (mine never chased, i said no, they didnt go..simple as that) finally the dogs all come back in and what does she do? pin the PUP on his back and yells "no!".... ok lady, A. hes a DOG he did what he thought was fun. B. hes already forgotten what happened and doesnt know why youre mad! and she turns to me with the "well cesar says to do this" and i just kept my mouth shut. but oh did i want to give her a mouthfull.
> 
> but as far as choke and prong collars go. choke i dont agree with AT ALL. but i do use prongs on my girls right now. but they only wear them on walks, and out in public where there are other dogs (petsmart, etc.) and walking over the bridge into the park (or else when its snowy like it is now....i turn into a sled) but its not a quick fix and i understand that. they dont wear them all the time (especially not to play, which i have seen at the dog park and it KILLS me... that and leaving the leash on dragging around, why dont they understand thats dangerous!!) and i work with them with walking without them on at home. i just need some extra control to help them when things get a little crazy. and theyre great on them, of course i never snap them or anything, and the only pressure they get is when they try to pull, and they dont. but no, i know its not a quick fix, and if it hurt them i wouldnt use it. i made sure it wouldnt either (i used it on myself)..... no, not like that...lol


I use a prong collar on my dog too, but only for walks. It works like a "mouth" to grab his attention and seems to be the only collar that works for him when he's on leash. It gets taken off in the house and at the park though. 

Forcing a dog to submit is a LAST RESORT option! Too many people do this right off the bat and it is completely unnecessary. My dog is a very dominant male and I've only had to do this maybe 3 times in his lifetime and it's from him being aggressive towards another dog enough that a quick touch correction and a sharp, NO, wouldn't snap him out of it. But, like I said before, you have to know how to do it correctly and use it in the right situation.

Dog parks can either be fun or a horrible place to go. I love going when the owners have control over their dogs and everyone plays nice. I completely hate having to "babysit" other people's dogs because they rather stand and talk to the other owners and let their dogs run a muck.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

its great when the 4:00 "regulars" are there. there are some regulars that come at all different times of day, but some... i just cant stand. theres a dobie that goes and he has on more than one occation pinned my older dane down with his mouth around her neck and she screams! and they just tell him "easy", while im trying to get my girl away from him. my gosh, i want to slap them. they just dont get that letting him go after other dogs (he will go at them barking and bearing his teeth and try to pin them down on their backs like he did to mine) isnt allowed! telling him "easy" doesnt work! hello!!!!??? anyone ever heard of "control"? those are the people that make me mad. and the ones that their dog runs into the muddy nasty creek and then they jump all over people. eew. like i want to smell like that! i dont know, maybe im just missing something because my girls wont go in the nasty water? or maybe i should pin them down and yell "YOU WILL SWIMMMM!!!" and then throw them in....


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## Kari's Mom (Dec 5, 2007)

I have no issue with prong/pinch or remote trainers if used by a PROFESSIONAL, properly and as a last resort. I personally feel that if they're coming to my store to train I want to see if we can start the right way. I have suggest a prong to a woman (maybe 115lbs?) for her 175 lbs mastiff that had already pulled her arm out of socket! However, so many people dont know what they're doing. I can't count how many times I've seen someone bring there dog in on a prong/choke chain WITH a flexi lead. I try to tell me they just need to be educated but some how I don't see how someone can really do that. Tools used right can speed up training or aid to a dog that is totally out of control but still. >.<


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

ugh, i hate flexi's theyre nothing but trouble. no actually i have for my one, a regular leash with the extra loop by the bottom and when she wears the prong, we use that loop. and the other i have her regular leash, but then i have a leash thats just a loop with a snap for when she has her prong on. my girls are too big that i cant do the "if they pull you stop walking" without a prong because if i do....well.... just picture that....


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RBark said:


> My father used one of those uncontrollable e-collars on one of his labs.
> 
> I was curious so I decided to put it on my younger brother (I was about 10, he was 9) and I shocked him.
> 
> I think I shortened his lifespan 10 years.


Now THAT is funny. 
I can think of a few dates I could have used that baby on...... ya know.. the ones you want to shorten all the way back to when you said "yes" when they asked you out....


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## doghollerer (Jan 1, 2008)

Devi is dead on. I ignored the warnings and tried the "pit maneuver" (thats what I call it when he pins the dogs down) a few times on my puppy. It scared the crap out of my young son who thought I was choking her. I also tried the shh and the poke on the neck. None of this did anything but confuse the heck out of my puppy. I hope I didn't do irreparable damage to her. I have sense stopped and started following the adivce on this site. Cesar's methods apparently work for him and the dogs that need rehabiliation. I am going to use other methods.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

RBark said:


> That said, my dad stopped using it after one rainy day, the lab was outside crying constantly so he used it to shut him up. The next thing they see is a bright blue flash like a thunder, and a dog that never whined again.
> 
> He got rid of the collar and decided to never use it again.


Did the dog die?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Did the dog die?


Er, I can see how it may seem like I said that. No, he did not die. But he never whined about being outside by himself again. He decided to use less extreme methods (which isn't saying much - all of his dog training knowledge came from the people he hunted with, which are all manly men who think of dogs only as tools.)

Said dog lived to about 12, when climbed over a 8' tall fence and got hit by a car. We were all very sad.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I watch that show all the time but I have tried 2 things he says on my dogs and 2 things only. Walking them more, and calm assertive energy. My protective 70 lb. german shepherd does not growl at other dogs anymore because I dont send anxiety down the leash.

This guy came into the dog park last week with 2 huge great danes. GORGEOUS DOGS!!! There was also a mastiff in there too. I was in huge doggie heaven!

So anywho, this guy is strange, and hes on his walkman, and barely paying attention to his dogs. They were friendly, but the 7 month old who is over 100 lbs kept charging the other dogs, and it was scaring them. Then the mastiff got involved, and there was almost a fight. I only bring my small dogs cuz they dont bother anyone haha. The big dogs get the mountain to hike.


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## Shanette Peters (Jan 14, 2008)

I watch Cesar's show as often as I can. That man has tallent and his patience in working with dogs is amazing. I have used a few of the techniques myself on my dog and the change is incredible. As well I have learned better ways in handling other dogs such as strays or clients dogs. There are some people who don't completely understand Cesars methods. Then there are some who have at least a bit of knowledge in dog training under their belt and can understand what is needed and why. No matter what anyone thinks I will continue to watch Cesar.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Yesterday my daughter was outside with our puppy and there was a guy walking the neighborhood handing out political literature. Charlie was barking at the man and my daughter apologized, so the man asked, "Do you watch the dog whisperer?" to which she replied "my mom does..." And the man told her "you need to be the pack leader". She just said "Uhh... okaaay" and went back inside. Being a dog person, I thougt it was funny!

As for the dog park, I haven't taken Charlie yet because I wasn't sure how things would go. He goes to doggie day care and plays with our neighborhood dogs fine, submits to other dogs (rolls on his back and lets them sniff him before they play, etc). But how do things work there usually? Are there often many dog fights? I am just worried what if Charlie is playing and some dog comes after him or something? Sorry - new dog owner - heehee. Maybe I should just go there by myself and check it out first...


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

I like Cesar Milan. The positive reinforcement trainer I went to with Jak said the same rant though when I asked about the Cesar Milan Illusion collar, kinda funny. But I think on the show the dogs are all in the "red zone" and so are the owners. Some of the behavior I see on Dog Whisperer is nuts, and I'm not even talking about the dogs. I think Cesar does the best he can with the disclaimer and all, but people are people and not everyone is willing to put in the effort and turn off the T.V. and pick up a book or go online to get the real deal on training. 



> Most people do want a quick fix, thats why there's prong collars, chain collars, remote collars, bark collars, etc. People don't want to see the root of their dogs problem is mostly themselves


Can't say I agree. I use a prong collar as well, and I think people are a bit too quick to condemn their use. Especially in cases where many other aids have been tried, and its the only one that produces any kind of result. Even more so when the owners aren't dealing with puppies they have raised but rather adult dogs who are adopted and come with their own issues.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

I still can't figure out why people put this guy up on a pedestal ? As I have been on his case, I have done some googling on him and watched some of the Dog Whisperer marathon the other day. It's obvious the guy uses mostly negative reinforcement techniques. I challenge anyone to walk up to 5 random dogs and do "SHHHH". I assure you nothing will happen. The only way that works if the sound of "SHHHH" is associated of something negative (most likely an E-Collar). In fact, I am going to send him an email with the same challenge.. I'll ask him to come here and let ME do the UNEDITED filming with 5 random problem dogs. I am sure, we would view "The Dog Whisperer" in a much different light. Instead of a guy who can part the seas, undoubtedly we would see a guy who gives up on other techniques and moves in to negative reinforcement fairly quickly. There are many recognized trainers, humane organizations and Animal Rights people who have publicly denounced this man and his techniques.

I strongly recommend doing some research instead of believing a magic show as shown on TV for entertainment purposes. The positive aspects of exercise is common sense for anyone who has been around dogs. Try being "The Feeder", treating your dog with respect, reinforcing your commands via positive reinforcement and letting your dog be a DOG and you'll never have to watch another episode of Mr. Millan. Not all dogs are easy, it will take much time and effort and with some you WILL have to move in to more negative associated training techniques but before doing so ask yourself , "Have I exhausted all other options and put a reasonable amount of time and effort in to this dog with no results?"


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> ) finally the dogs all come back in and what does she do? pin the PUP on his back and yells "no!"....


I work with a guy who does this to his mini schnauzers when they take off on him. I asked him one day what he was teaching them. He told me he was teaching that they get punished for not listening. 

I told him no, all he was doing is teaching them that they get punished for coming back! 

Whether they listen to Cesar or not... some people just don't and won't ever get it!


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

> I still can't figure out why people put this guy up on a pedestal ? As I have been on his case, I have done some googling on him and watched some of the Dog Whisperer marathon the other day. It's obvious the guy uses mostly negative reinforcement techniques. I challenge anyone to walk up to 5 random dogs and do "SHHHH". I assure you nothing will happen. The only way that works if the sound of "SHHHH" is associated of something negative (most likely an E-Collar). In fact, I am going to send him an email with the same challenge.. I'll ask him to come here and let ME do the UNEDITED filming with 5 random problem dogs. I am sure, we would view "The Dog Whisperer" in a much different light. Instead of a guy who can part the seas, undoubtedly we would see a guy who gives up on other techniques and moves in to negative reinforcement fairly quickly. There are many recognized trainers, humane organizations and Animal Rights people who have publicly denounced this man and his techniques.


He actually talked about this case in his blog: http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/dwblog/Season3ep03.php


> Contrary to misstatements by some critics, I do not advocate the permanent use of electric or prong collars or similar devices. I do, however, believe in using the right tool for the right situation, though solely for training purposes, with the idea that, with proper instruction and consistency, the tools will eventually no longer be needed.
> 
> No two dogs are alike. And their life experiences differ with each case. I felt that the use of the e-collar was best for Molly, in order to save her life. In her two short years, she had already lost an eye, some teeth, and survived a run-in with a tractor tire. The next one could be her last.
> 
> ...


As for the SHHHHT noise - there's nothing magic in the noise. It's moreso the energy behind it (which Cesar has said over and over and over and over again) I have my own noise that my dogs know is a "don't do that" or "stop it" sound...It's more of an Ah-Ah. To say that owners should ONLY EVER use +Reinforcement in training their dogs is as ridiculous as saying you should ONLY EVER use -R or +/-Punishment.

BTW...if Cesar paired the SSHHHHH noise with a shock in order to eliminate a behavior, that would be +Punishment, not -Reinforcement.  Perhaps if you understood the different types of operant conditioning, you'd better understand how they can/should be applied in different situations and with different behaviors.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

lovemygreys
If I take a dog, any dog and simultaneously shock him while doing "SHHH" for a week (even several days), then take the collar off and only do "SHHHH", the dog is NOT going to negatively associate SHHHH with a shock ? You want me to believe that's true ? And once again, I challenge you to use the SHHH method on any random dog and note the response.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

SK63 said:


> lovemygreys
> If I take a dog, any dog and simultaneously shock him while doing "SHHH" for a week (even several days), then take the collar off and only do "SHHHH", the dog is NOT going to negatively associate SHHHH with a shock ? You want me to believe that's true ?


I never said that.



> And once again, I challenge you to use the SHHH method on any random dog and note the response.


And as I said...I do use a noise correction with my dogs. It's not SHHH, rather something that's more natural for me to say. And, yes, my dogs do respond to a verbal correction. And, no, I've never used an e-collar on any of them. CM has never said his SHHH sound is "magical"...he's often explained that it's a noise that's natural to him b/c it's what he heard used growing up. That it's not the sound, rather the energy behind it.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

lovemygreys said:


> And as I said...I do use a noise correction with my dogs. It's not SHHH, rather something that's more natural for me to say. And, yes, my dogs do respond to a verbal correction. And, no, I've never used an e-collar on any of them. CM has never said his SHHH sound is "magical"...he's often explained that it's a noise that's natural to him b/c it's what he heard used growing up. That it's not the sound, rather the energy behind it.


Ok, that makes good sense, no problems there. I make this little clicking sound for come and nearly all dogs will come. I've never used any clicker training and even dogs I don't know will come to this sound. We were playing with a group of strangers the other day at the school. Their lab headed to cross the street after a ball, I made this little clicking sound and he immediately returned to me (not his owners). I've used it all my life and alwyas thought it was odd and intriguing. That clicking sound of mine, might be the same as Cesar's SHHH though it means different.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

SK63 said:


> If I take a dog, any dog and simultaneously shock him while doing "SHHH" for a week (even several days), then take the collar off and only do "SHHHH", the dog is NOT going to negatively associate SHHHH with a shock ? You want me to believe that's true ? And once again, I challenge you to use the SHHH method on any random dog and note the response.


I believe the dog can and would. My dog had no clue what 'sit' meant until I taught her. Believe it or not, the cue 'sit' is also a punishment. But you have to know the definition of punishment (and there are many) to see that. Most people believe a punishment is something aversive. That's not true. I could have, although it would have been foolish, used the cue 'tsst' to mean sit. But I'd have to condition the cue first. The random dog wouldn't know 'tsst' meant sit, either. 

What Cesar did with the e-collar is no different, although I don't recall Cesar using a conditional cue (tsst) in the e-collar case (that would be training, and Cesar's not a trainer, remember). Regardless, he used shock to mean 'do something else'. Shock is not very instructive, like me luring my dog to sit. But, since the cue (the tractor) now caused pain, that something else (the target behavior) became 'run away', and the reinforcement (the treat I lured my dog with) is the pain from the shock collar stopping. It works brilliantly if the timing is exact, and the punishment is severe enough to be punishing (reduces the frequency of charging the tractor). The average dog handler doesn't have a feel for timing or punishment, thus the caveat. 

Personally, when the dog's life is in danger, like it would be around large moving equipment, an e-collar is an option. Just as it would be if you had a dog that enjoyed catching rattle snakes. When the dog's life comes into question, the risk is worth trying stronger aversions. I'd rather my dog fear rattle snakes than not. 

But I agree, anyone who would view an e-collar under the guise of whispering, is a fool.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Oh! Oh! Prophet,

Personally, when the dog's life is in danger, like it would be around large moving equipment, an e-collar is an option. Just as it would be if you had a dog that enjoyed catching rattle snakes. When the dog's life comes into question, the risk is worth trying stronger aversions. I'd rather my dog fear rattle snakes than not.

It sounds like your saying *the end justifies the means * I'm just foolin with ya. There is absolutely no flaw in your statement. It's a case of a smaller hurt now versus a bigger hurt or even worse later. In the bag of tools that I have mentioned on posts the e-collar is way at the bottom of the bag. The big reason is, *as you mentioned* the timing etc is way beyond what the average dog person can handle properly because of the lack of experience.

I'm assuming this is from Cesar
*We made sure that the setting of the e-collar was not high enough to cause Molly any pain. As you will see, she passed with flying colors and her owners were able to remove the e-collar after two months.* To be accurate, The statement should have stated a small or minor amount of pain. Or at the very least, as a doctor tells you before he lances a cyst, this is going to cause you some discomfort. I have never seen or used an e-collar that was painless. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> It sounds like your saying *the end justifies the means * I'm just foolin with ya.


That's precisely what I'm saying. How we justify it, however, is not often very revealing. I can count how many stims of the collar I used one week to the next, and make a decision on whether the collar IS effective or not. If the number of tractor-chasing-behaviors and stims reduce over time, yes it's effective, and yes the end result is justified by the means. To say however, _this is how I've been doing it for years_ - _it will work_, or _this is how mama wolf would correct her pup in the wild, _is ludicrous. Cesar said neither of these, but these are examples of hearsay. 



> To be accurate, The statement should have stated a small or minor amount of pain. Or at the very least, as a doctor tells you before he lances a cyst, this is going to cause you some discomfort. I have never seen or used an e-collar that was painless. I would be interested in your thoughts on that.


Your assessment is certainly more inline with what's accurate, but I don't know we can make any value judgment on how much pain is involved. All we can note are the dog's reactions. The goal is to modify behavior, which is what we can observe, not to measure pain which we can't sense, feel, or see in the dog. Any assumption we make on the level of pain is, just that, an assumption. 

Do dogs react to pain?, certainly. Do they all react the same way?, no. My dog would laugh at a leash correction. You could kick her like a soccer ball and she'd think it's a game. Raise you voice at her, however, and her world is crushed. Is yelling painful? It can be if we yell so loud that it hurts the dog's ear drums, but not many people are capable of yelling that loud. I *believe* we can say with good confidence that yelling is NOT painful, but if I had to boundary proof my dog to a danger would yelling be better than a leash correction? Would yelling an instruction be even more ideal? For my dog I can prove yelling is punishing where leash corrections are not, but counting them. 

Again, the only way you can justify the means is by counting the inappropriate behaviors and the number of punishments. Both must reduce over time to be justified. Otherwise, the dog isn't learning, and you're just managing the dog. In which case, I'd rather keep the dog in a crate if I'm out working my tractor.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Prophet
Well I also cannot argue with anything on your reply, I once had a GSP that I was steadying to wing, shot, and kill of a pheasant. That had the same voice attitude, if you raised voice it would absolutely warp her. Actually it just made the work much easier. You just did not need any other tools except your voice. I wish they were all like that, I would be a much younger man, dogs have aged me, lol. I am having a very good dog time though, even with the aging.


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## Shanette Peters (Jan 14, 2008)

SK63 said:


> I still can't figure out why people put this guy up on a pedestal ? As I have been on his case, I have done some googling on him and watched some of the Dog Whisperer marathon the other day. It's obvious the guy uses mostly negative reinforcement techniques. I challenge anyone to walk up to 5 random dogs and do "SHHHH". I assure you nothing will happen. The only way that works if the sound of "SHHHH" is associated of something negative (most likely an E-Collar). In fact, I am going to send him an email with the same challenge.. I'll ask him to come here and let ME do the UNEDITED filming with 5 random problem dogs. I am sure, we would view "The Dog Whisperer" in a much different light. Instead of a guy who can part the seas, undoubtedly we would see a guy who gives up on other techniques and moves in to negative reinforcement fairly quickly. There are many recognized trainers, humane organizations and Animal Rights people who have publicly denounced this man and his techniques.
> 
> I strongly recommend doing some research instead of believing a magic show as shown on TV for entertainment purposes. The positive aspects of exercise is common sense for anyone who has been around dogs. Try being "The Feeder", treating your dog with respect, reinforcing your commands via positive reinforcement and letting your dog be a DOG and you'll never have to watch another episode of Mr. Millan. Not all dogs are easy, it will take much time and effort and with some you WILL have to move in to more negative associated training techniques but before doing so ask yourself , "Have I exhausted all other options and put a reasonable amount of time and effort in to this dog with no results?"


I must ask what is it about cesar that you actually don't like? Because even from what you have said about positive reinforcment and letting your dog be a dog, those are things that cesar does try to instill with the owners in his shows. Also making sure the dog gets enough excercise. I realize 'to each their own' and everyone has an opinion, but to be honest I haven't seen cesar use what i'd call negative reinforcement. I have done my own background search and info look up on Cesar and from what I have seen and heard the guy is genuine and has training to back it up. Like other people have stated, using the 'shhh' or other verbal command to get the dogs attention works in most cases. But then again this is just my opinion. Everyone has someone they look up to in way of training and respect, for me it is Cesar or even Stanley Coren.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Shanette Peters said:


> I haven't seen cesar use what i'd call negative reinforcement.


If you've seen him pin a dog, you've seen him use negative reinforcement. He doesn't let go of the dog until the dog surrenders. In which case, the pinning ends(negative = removal of punishment), reinforcing whatever behavior he's looking for (typically submission).


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## Shanette Peters (Jan 14, 2008)

SK63 said:


> lovemygreys
> If I take a dog, any dog and simultaneously shock him while doing "SHHH" for a week (even several days), then take the collar off and only do "SHHHH", the dog is NOT going to negatively associate SHHHH with a shock ? You want me to believe that's true ? And once again, I challenge you to use the SHHH method on any random dog and note the response.


I have used the 'shhh' menthod with stray dogs barking at me, dogs i groom that are trying to be dominant, my own dog and I can say with great certainty that it did cause them to change their focus and calm down. As 'lovemygreys' said and as CM has said it is more the energy behind it. If you don't put yourself in the rank as topdog/leader of the pack, the dog will. Personally I would never use an e collar on my dog or others, although I would like to try the collar and leash combo created by cesar's wife. Though from watching cesar I have been able to gain more control of my dog without the use of a leash. (my tone of voice athorative but calm, and not giving up).



Curbside Prophet said:


> If you've seen him pin a dog, you've seen him use negative reinforcement. He doesn't let go of the dog until the dog surrenders. In which case, the pinning ends(negative = removal of punishment), reinforcing whatever behavior he's looking for (typically submission).


In my opinion using an electric shock collar is more of an negative reinforcement than pinning a dog to the ground(which some mother dogs might do to pups). Again in my opinion - if he lets go once the dog surrenders then great - the dog is calm enough to continue further training, (out of the shows i have been able to watch) I have only seen him pin a dog twice - both red zone cases where he states the dogs 'energy' is strong. I'd rather see him pin a dog than YELL at it to make it submit.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Shanette Peters said:


> In my opinion using an electric shock collar is more of an negative reinforcement than pinning a dog to the ground(which some mother dogs might do to pups).


Yes, that's an opinion, as an e-collar can also be used in all four quarters of the quadrant...not just negative reinforcement.



> where he states the dogs 'energy' is strong.


I've heard Yoda say this too about Luke, but you won't find me trying to levitate my dog out of a bad situation, lol. 



> I'd rather see him pin a dog than YELL at it to make it submit.


And I'd rather he never place a dog in a situation where forcible submission was necessary. That's what I appreciate most about us non-dog-whisperers, we have a choice.


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## Gates1026 (Mar 14, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If you've seen him pin a dog, you've seen him use negative reinforcement. He doesn't let go of the dog until the dog surrenders. In which case, the pinning ends(negative = removal of punishment), reinforcing whatever behavior he's looking for (typically submission).


Just for my own understanding, could pinning a dog down also qualify as a positive punishment in certain circumstances? 

Example: Your dog gets into the trash, when you catch him you pin him to the ground. You are introducing something negative into the environment as to lessen the likelihood of the behavior in the future.

I am obviously am not recommending this, just wanting to clarify with an example.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Gates1026 said:


> Just for my own understanding, could pinning a dog down also qualify as a positive punishment in certain circumstances?
> 
> Example: Your dog gets into the trash, when you catch him you pin him to the ground. You are introducing something negative into the environment as to lessen the likelihood of the behavior in the future.


Absolutely. The target behavior in this case is not submission, it's to leave the trash alone (the behavior you're trying to increase the frequency of). So, you would add (positive) an an alpha roll (punishment) every time he went for the trash, hoping it reduces the frequency of trash diving.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

Here's my worst nightmare scenario, the Dog Whisperer followers begin to see that "Cesar's Way" is not as effective in real life as it is on the tube. After working with their dog for an hour, there are no results. So what would be the next method of gaining pack dominance and total control ? An E-COLLAR. This is truly a nightmare scenario.

Most, if not all, on this board seem to be reasonable dog lovers, well versed in dogs and training but the use of shock collars making it in to the mainstream ? God help our 4 legged friends. I pray I don't start seeing the "Cesar Commandos" showing up at the park with a Tri-Tronics in hand saying _"Cesar says I must be the pack leader, this shock collar definitely makes me the pack leader...hahahaha"_


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

SK63 said:


> Here's my worst nightmare scenario, the Dog Whisperer followers begin to see that "Cesar's Way" is not as effective in real life as it is on the tube. After working with their dog for an hour, there are no results. So what would be the next method of gaining pack dominance and total control ? An E-COLLAR. This is truly a nightmare scenario.
> 
> Most, if not all, on this board seem to be reasonable dog lovers, well versed in dogs and training but the use of shock collars making it in to the mainstream ? God help our 4 legged friends. I pray I don't start seeing the "Cesar Commandos" showing up at the park with a Tri-Tronics in hand saying _"Cesar says I must be the pack leader, this shock collar definitely makes me the pack leader...hahahaha"_


You do know that e-collars have been in use by the mainstream (anybody that could afford to buy them) long before Cesar had his 1st TV show and the dog world has survived.


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## Shanette Peters (Jan 14, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Absolutely. The target behavior in this case is not submission, it's to leave the trash alone (the behavior you're trying to increase the frequency of). So, you would add (positive) an an alpha roll (punishment) every time he went for the trash, hoping it reduces the frequency of trash diving.


would that not be the the dog submitting to the boundary of staying out of the trash? Considering that a person would probably have to do it more than once if the dog continues the action. My dog has gotten into the garbage in the past, however i hadn't used the pinning to the ground in this case instead if i caught her in the act of it i said firmly ' leave it', then praise her for doing so, for her that has worked, also keeping the garbage out of her access(preventing it from happening to begin with). Don't get me wrong I'm not saying the 'leave it' command will work for every dog, just that it has worked with mine. In my opinion, every dog is different some require more effort than others, and some people are more capable than others of getting the desired responce.(I'd guess that's where a persons energy is determind, desplaying as alpha roll or not)



SK63 said:


> Here's my worst nightmare scenario, the Dog Whisperer followers begin to see that "Cesar's Way" is not as effective in real life as it is on the tube. After working with their dog for an hour, there are no results. So what would be the next method of gaining pack dominance and total control ? An E-COLLAR. This is truly a nightmare scenario.
> 
> Most, if not all, on this board seem to be reasonable dog lovers, well versed in dogs and training but the use of shock collars making it in to the mainstream ? God help our 4 legged friends. I pray I don't start seeing the "Cesar Commandos" showing up at the park with a Tri-Tronics in hand saying _"Cesar says I must be the pack leader, this shock collar definitely makes me the pack leader...hahahaha"_


I agree, I'd hope that people listen to all of what cesar tries to show not just parts, and then resort to the cruelty of those shock collars. A friend of mine was going to use one for her two dachshunds for their 'out of control barking' , when i saw her get one i asked her if she'd try it on before she used it on her dogs. She did and decided not to go ahead with it. But in her case I also said barking is a dog's natural action like talking is to us. Of course not everyone will agree with me, but oh well, any other thaughts about barking?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Shanette Peters said:


> would that not be the the dog submitting to the boundary of staying out of the trash? Considering that a person would probably have to do it more than once if the dog continues the action. My dog has gotten into the garbage in the past, however i hadn't used the pinning to the ground in this case instead if i caught her in the act of it i said firmly ' leave it', then praise her for doing so, for her that has worked, also keeping the garbage out of her access(preventing it from happening to begin with).


No, the dog isn't submitting to a boundary. The dog can only submit to whomever he's having the contest with. We, the owner, made the boundary, so the contest is with the owner. The difference between pinning a dog to stop him from trash diving and teaching leave it is this... In teaching leave it, you show the dog that leaving a boundary IS the most rewarding behavior, assuming you've taught the dog what leave it means. That is the preferred method IMO, as 'leave it' becomes the instructive reprimand.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

wvasko
I've been going to a large dog park (60 acres+) nearly every day for the last 10 years (at least) and have only seen a handful of e-collars, mostly on the sporting breed and being used by men. I can only think of one woman with a shock collar on her dog, she had a group of GSP's, I think she runs a rescue. I can't agree that E-collars are in the mainstream with the exception of hunters and those that are in to serious training.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

SK63 said:


> wvasko
> I've been going to a large dog park (60 acres+) nearly every day for the last 10 years (at least) and have only seen a handful of e-collars, mostly on the sporting breed and being used by men. I can only think of one woman with a shock collar on her dog, she had a group of GSP's, I think she runs a rescue. I can't agree that E-collars are in the mainstream with the exception of hunters and those that are in to serious training.


I did not say everybody was buying one, I said they were here to buy if somebody wanted to, Cadillac cars have been in the mainstream for years but not everybody buys one. I also think that not everybody that watches Cesar is going to run out and get an e-collar. I guess in my roundabout way I was saying you can sleep comfortably there will not be Cesar commandos running around with their hands on the button lol


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## everest (May 29, 2007)

I think Ceaser's methods on walking and projecting positive energy are great. The basic ideas in his methods are great to follow. That being said, just because you watch the show doesn't mean your him. There's a reason they put up those warnings at the begining of every show.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

SK63 said:


> Here's my worst nightmare scenario, the Dog Whisperer followers begin to see that "Cesar's Way" is not as effective in real life as it is on the tube. After working with their dog for an hour, there are no results. So what would be the next method of gaining pack dominance and total control ? An E-COLLAR. This is truly a nightmare scenario.
> 
> Most, if not all, on this board seem to be reasonable dog lovers, well versed in dogs and training but the use of shock collars making it in to the mainstream ? God help our 4 legged friends. I pray I don't start seeing the "Cesar Commandos" showing up at the park with a Tri-Tronics in hand saying _"Cesar says I must be the pack leader, this shock collar definitely makes me the pack leader...hahahaha"_



I didn't read every word of every post and maybe I missed something but what does this point have to do with anything? There's NO truth in what you're saying.

How do you liken Ceasar to an e collar? Simply because you don't like either of them? How are you to know that a dog owner not getting results with Ceasar's methods (pretty unlikely anyways if you asked me) are going to go for an e collar in the first place?

Ceasar didn't invent the e collar and although I've seen him use it ... once I think ... he doesn't go for it every case or even every case that is more work then most.

So ... I don't know where you get your information but shock collar does not equal Ceasar Milan.

I'm a hardcore "Cesar Commando" - - I've read both books ... watched as many shows as I can (haven't seen many of the new season yet because they just started in Canada) and poked around on his website on a regular basis, tried many of his methods and I have no desire / need to use an e collar.

Just to point out ... I've tried many of his techniques and the change is amazing =)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

jerzegirl said:


> I didn't read every word of every post and maybe I missed something but what does this point have to do with anything? There's NO truth in what you're saying.
> 
> How do you liken Ceasar to an e collar? Simply because you don't like either of them? How are you to know that a dog owner not getting results with Ceasar's methods (pretty unlikely anyways if you asked me) are going to go for an e collar in the first place?
> 
> ...


jerzegirl 
I have managed to watch one of his shows. I saw nothing that I could not live with. The big problem SK63 has (my own opinion) is that Cesar used the e-collar instead of exhausting all other methods. Now SK63 talked about a nightmare scenario. How about a different scenario, Cesar saw dog, read dog, and went quickly to the method he thought was quick, efficient and evidently worked to some degree. 
I don't really know because I did not see it. My scenario is if I call a plumber and he comes to home and fixes my plumbing, I'm happy. I think thats what tradesman/journeymen etc do. Please everybody, I'm not saying that plumbing is dog work, just my way of explaining my thoughts on this. As I said I'm not pro or anti Cesar just neutral. In closing jerze instead of being a Cesar commando just be a jerze commando because if you are in dogs you got to think for yourself. You have to build your own program about training your dogs. You can use some of Cesar and other trainer's methods that you beg, borrow or steal. That is the way you improve your own dog skills. My opinion only.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

I agree wvasko about picking and choosing what training methods you use =)

The only episode I've seen of Ceasar using an e collar was with the cattle dog that went after the tractor wheels. If that's the episode in question - the dog had already lost one eye from being in an accident with the tractor. Yet, it was a farm dog and the owners wanted it to be out with them but obviously not to go after the wheels.

So you need a correction you can use from a distance and you need to break that habit fast or the dog could possibly be killed. Other then an e collar, I can think of a citronella collar that you could use at that distance. And don't forget the sound of the tractor or other farm machinery going on, so it's noisy.

For those who haven't seen that episode, Ceasar did not use the collar on full power either. Personally, I wouldn't want to use an e collar - - but if the alternative was the "possible" death of my dog, I'd definitely reconsider.


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## mom2kdg (Jan 12, 2007)

First, I have to admit I enjoy his show. 

What I think most people feel to realize is he deal with very difficult situations and dogs. I don't think that I could get Ceaser to come to my house with his camera crew and stop my dog from digging holes in the lawn. It's pretty much what dogs do. But if he ripped the neighbors dog's head off he would be here in a pinch.

He has a show for a reason!


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## Gates1026 (Mar 14, 2007)

mom2kdg said:


> First, I have to admit I enjoy his show.


I was a really big Cesar fan for a while when I had first brough home Bailey. It really seemed like magic what he was doing and it made sense at the time. I watched as many of his shows as I could and read his first book.

As I read more of his book and watched his shows, it made me want to branch out and read more and more on the subject. There were a few books out there that were really great and changed my views quite a lot.

I do still watch his show from time to time when I see it on, but now for purely entertainment value.



> The only episode I've seen of Ceasar using an e collar was with the cattle dog that went after the tractor wheels. If that's the episode in question - the dog had already lost one eye from being in an accident with the tractor. Yet, it was a farm dog and the owners wanted it to be out with them but obviously not to go after the wheels.


I never did get to see this specific incident. It surprised me a little bit to hear that he used a shock collar right from the start, it doesn't really seem to fit with his thoughts about dominance and pack theory. He doesn't tend to stray much from his usual methods from what I have seen......although I have noticed in this most recent season the show has changed a bit. Did he say anything about that during this show?


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## Shanette Peters (Jan 14, 2008)

Gates1026 said:


> mom2kdg said:
> 
> 
> > First, I have to admit I enjoy his show.
> ...


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

I (obviously  ) love Ceasar ... I just wanted to point out that it's not common for him to suggest an e collar .. but if the choice is a dead dog I think it's the right choice!

End of My Leash ... I watch it sometimes and I think most of his ideas are good but I don't like all the screaming he does at the people and the dogs. I can't usually make it through a full episode ... too much yelling for me.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I don't watch the "Dog whisperer" (mainly because I don't get Animal Planet currently and am not paying an extra $10 a month to see stuff I've seen a dozen times already whe nI did have it)
With that being said, how can people not realize that a disclaimer, although holding the liable party harmless, is useless. 
The show "Jackass" has a disclaimer, and idiots still do those stunts....


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

doghollerer said:


> Devi is dead on. I ignored the warnings and tried the "pit maneuver" (thats what I call it when he pins the dogs down) a few times on my puppy. It scared the crap out of my young son who thought I was choking her. I also tried the shh and the poke on the neck. None of this did anything but confuse the heck out of my puppy. I hope I didn't do irreparable damage to her. I have sense stopped and started following the adivce on this site. Cesar's methods apparently work for him and the dogs that need rehabiliation. I am going to use other methods.


I did that on my pup as well but only because that is how I trained Izze but Izze's personality is as I'm learning, totally different then Josephine who I'm realising now is a lot softer then Izze & it freaked her out so I'm trying positive renforcement with her with the correct use of treats (please feel free to say I told you so because I deserve it).  I hope that I can repair the damage to our young relationship  .


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