# For All You Sighthound Owners....



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i want to know what is considered the "ideal" look for a sighthound.....what is considered "too skinny" and what is leaning on the "heavy" side (not fat or obese, just maybe a little too much "couch-potatoe-y).....

i ask cuz i have a friend w/ 2 Saluki's that i think are too thin....and i like my dogs lean.....

pictures, if you can


----------



## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

It really depends on each breed. Each has a different written standard that describes its appearance based on its function.

But generally, remember that these breeds are, first and foremost, _athletes_. Thus, they should carry very little, if any, body fat. Therefore, as compared to many other dogs, they do appear thin. But remember also, many people allow their dogs to get overweight, and we, as a society, get used to seeing that.

It's also very unhealthy for them to get overweight. It's taxing on the organs, and can cause arthritis. It's not worth it. It can be tough on some individuals, too, to get them to gain weight. Active dogs burn it off the calories, and sighthounds' metabolism tends to be higher than the average dog too. (I always tell people that they have the kind of metabloism I wish I had!) Puppies and young dogs, especially, tend to be little rails as they grow, and large sighthound breeds are puppies a LONG time!

Remember, also, coated sighthounds appear more substantial than their short-haired cousins.

For example:

This is Manero when he was 3 (he's now 8):










This is his brother Cooper, just a couple years ago:










This is our Greyhound Naples. This photo is from a couple years ago, also, when she was about 8 (she's now 11. That's a foster on the couch with DH). It's also not the best angle, and actually makes her look a bit more padded than she is. And you can't see her tuck-up well. But you get the idea.










See how the coat makes the boys look like they have a lot more weight? but we are careful not to let our dogs get overweight. If you were to shave down the boys (don't even THINK about it!), you'd see a shadow of ribs, too, much like in Naples.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I am OK with seeing "shadows" of their ribs, or even being able to clearly see the last rib or 2. But I have seen dogs (usually sighthounds or pit bulls) with ALL of their ribs visible, and their hip bones sticking out, and their owners say they're of a healthy "athletic" weight. I don't think so.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> This is Manero when he was 3 (he's now 8):


He is NOT!!

Willowy, I don't think I've EVER seen a Saluki where I couldn't see ALL their ribs...and that includes the pet dogs....they just don't carry weight. Same for the majority of Afghan hounds I've seen, pets or otherwise.


----------



## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

yup...they turned 8 this month! Time flies!


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I am OK with seeing "shadows" of their ribs, or even being able to clearly see the last rib or 2. But I have seen dogs (usually sighthounds or pit bulls) with ALL of their ribs visible, and their hip bones sticking out, and their owners say they're of a healthy "athletic" weight. I don't think so.


Last rib or 2 also works for me.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Salukis are very lean, it can be hard to put weight on them, even. It's normal to be able to see a rib or two on them.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

ok, Naples is what i like (maybe, like you said her looking a little more padded, is a bit more but, yeah)....i like to slightly see and be able to feel the ribs w/out having to "go digging".....these 2 Saluki's are extremely ribby and their hips are extremely pronounced....next time i'm w/ them i will try to get some pics to show, but i think they are way to thin.....


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Just off google, all the Salukis I've seen is pretty much like this. The owners tell me it's impossible to put anymore weight on their dogs.


----------



## TheBearCat (Jun 5, 2010)

I believe I read somewhere that Azawakhs and Salukis have muscles that lay flat, which probably helps them to looks so lean. Not sure if that's accurate.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Just off google, all the Salukis I've seen is pretty much like this. The owners tell me it's impossible to put anymore weight on their dogs.


I actually find that rather unattractive. I normally really like sighthounds, but that is just wrong.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I actually find that rather unattractive. I normally really like sighthounds, but that is just wrong.


You mean the weight of the dog? The problem is they won't eat anymore and can't seem to gain anymore weight. It's not like the owners are starving the dogs, their metabolism is just so high that they end up looking like that. 

I actually don't mind it much. I like dogs with a similar physique. Maybe just not as extreme. For example Papillons and Border Collies are both actually pretty slim, long legged, large ribbed and have a good tuck up. Of course no where near as extreme as sight hounds.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I actually reallyreally like the look of Salukis. They're one of my favorite breeds, looks-wise. But not if they look like that one. I've seen plenty of pictures of them with more flesh on them than that. . .I just really hate to see the hip bones jutting out. Looks like the poor dog is starving to death. I mean, I understand the dog won't eat more, or has a crazy high metabolism, so it's not like I blame the owners, I just don't like the skeletal look at all.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Here's my friends. This dog isn't nearly as extreme but you can still clearly see the ribcage. this dog is much older than the google pic though. I think the google Saluki is still fairly young.










She actually has 2 but I don't have a good pic of the other dog. I don't think you can see anything of the other dog


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think those 2 look OK. Not too much rib, and I can't see their hipbones. Lovely doggies!


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

You can see their hips if they're standing and not running but like I said these dogs are 3-5 years old while the pic I found looks pretty young. Almost all dogs have a skinny, leggy stage.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> You mean the weight of the dog? The problem is they won't eat anymore and can't seem to gain anymore weight. It's not like the owners are starving the dogs, their metabolism is just so high that they end up looking like that.
> 
> I actually don't mind it much. I like dogs with a similar physique. Maybe just not as extreme. For example Papillons and Border Collies are both actually pretty slim, long legged, large ribbed and have a good tuck up. Of course no where near as extreme as sight hounds.


Yeah, the dog is pretty, but I don't like the bones sticking out everywhere.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Just off google, all the Salukis I've seen is pretty much like this. The owners tell me it's impossible to put anymore weight on their dogs.


it seems that these ones are even more extreme than that, but it's been a couple wks since i've seen them (i've had 2 girls in season and the male is intact) so i can't really be sure if it's them or me......i'll see them in the next wk or so and get some pics.....


----------



## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi all- I'm new to the forum- this is my first post lol. :wave: I've "owned" (or been owned by??), and have fostered, greyhounds for about 11 years now.

In retired racing greyhounds, they say that- at "retirement" weight- you should be able to see the grey's last 3 ribs. They're such an aerodynamic breed, it really affects their joints when they get flabby so it's important to keep them lean for health reasons.











This is a picture from one of our outings at a local fenced-in ballfield-- Jack (3 years old) and Cliff (12 years old). Not the greatest picture, but Jack's at a pretty good weight here. Cliff has always been lanky and bony, but has been going through a lot of health issues and unfortunately isn't holding his weight well. Sigh. 

I should add, the Salukis I have seen (show dogs) have always been incredibly thin and bony. I'm not so sure if this is a dietary thing, or some sort of internal metabolic compensation for their desert heritage (although Greyhounds are as well,they went through such a "refinement" in Great Britain, that they are actually considered an English breed now, rather than Egyptian). 

Look forward to reading more on the forum! :wave:

Jen










An edit to add... this is Clifford in his younger days- spring/summer 2003. He was about 4. You can see shadows of the ribs and hip bones but not the "stegosaurus" spine that has popped up in his old age. He was fighting weight here!! :laugh: I would personally consider this ideal weight for a retired greyhound. 

I just love my handsome boy. :redface:

Jen


----------



## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

That Saluki from Google is GORGEOUS! Wow! He truly is not too thin, despite what many people believe.

Regarding the muscling, most sighthounds have more fast twitch muscle vs. slow twitch. this means they were built for short bursts of sprinting, instead of longer endurance runs. As a result, they have more wiry muscles that lay flatter, and _consume more energy_. Thus, their metabolism is higher, and keeping weight on them is tough to do.

When Manero was young (he had just turned 2 when he came to us), he was skinny as a rail. He looked like a starvation case. But he was active, and we walked him. He also chose not to eat a lot. We kept food in front of him all the time, but if he ate two cups per day, it was a lot. As he matured, he filled out, and began eating more.

Also, many sighthounds, especially larger sighthounds, are kept intact for a longer period of time than many other breeds of dog. Whether it is because they show, or for other reasons, their development is affected by the hormones associated with the sexual organs. Generally, they grow height first, and are very active. It's only after they achieve their full height that they will begin to add mass. So they end up looking even skinnier than they really are. And most larger sighthounds do not reach full maturity until at least 5 years of age. This includes Salukis. So they retain the skinny, gawky teenage look for a long time.

A couple other photos to consider:









Manero at 12 months old.









At 4, about a week after finishing his championship.

See how skinny and gawky he looked as a youngster? Compare that to him as a mature adult. Vast difference, but he's still slender.


----------



## Allyfally (Mar 4, 2011)

Ooh, I must say I'm extremely jealous of people with Saluki's. I've wanted one since I was a kid.

Those Borzoi are gorgous also!


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I've actually heard (I think from some people who were showing Salukis at a dog show I went to last year) that the reason the hip bones stick up is because they're actually shaped differently than other breeds. It's supposed to benefit them somehow when they run, maybe make them faster or increase the length of their stride? It's not a result of being too thin, it's just how they're shaped. If they has a little more body fat they'd still probably look pretty different than any other breed of dog. As you can see, the hip bones are actually kind of almost sticking up above the topline, which doesn't occur in many other breeds of dogs. 

If it's unattractive to you, than I suppose that's just personal preference. Just like it's personal preference to be attracted to Corgi legs or GSD legs.

BTW, I just want to mention, I think this dog is absolutely beautiful! But I have no idea how well he represents the breed, I know pretty much nothing about Salukis!


----------



## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Nargle said:


> I've actually heard (I think from some people who were showing Salukis at a dog show I went to last year) that the reason the hip bones stick up is because they're actually shaped differently than other breeds. It's supposed to benefit them somehow when they run, maybe make them faster or increase the length of their stride? It's not a result of being too thin, it's just how they're shaped. If they has a little more body fat they'd still probably look pretty different than any other breed of dog. As you can see, the hip bones are actually kind of almost sticking up above the topline, which doesn't occur in many other breeds of dogs.
> 
> If it's unattractive to you, than I suppose that's just personal preference. Just like it's personal preference to be attracted to Corgi legs or GSD legs.
> 
> BTW, I just want to mention, I think this dog is absolutely beautiful! But I have no idea how well he represents the breed, I know pretty much nothing about Salukis!


I'd have to do a little more research about that in Salukis. But I know in Afghans, the hips are set higher, to allow for more range of motion. They were bred to hunt in varying terrain, and had to leap and jump on a regular basis. The higher set of the joint allows this.

Yes, that Saluki is GORGEOUS (his front has me drooling). I'd like to see a little more bone on a males, but he appears young - in that case, it's likely to develop in time.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Sighthounds4me said:


> I'd have to do a little more research about that in Salukis. But I know in Afghans, the hips are set higher, to allow for more range of motion. They were bred to hunt in varying terrain, and had to leap and jump on a regular basis. The higher set of the joint allows this.
> 
> Yes, that Saluki is GORGEOUS (his front has me drooling). I'd like to see a little more bone on a males, but he appears young - in that case, it's likely to develop in time.


I see, that makes sense. I think that's what the Saluki owners at the dog show were referring to. The hips are set higher, which is why they look different.

BTW, speaking of Afghans, I think the puppies look absolutely hilarious! :biggrin1:


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Hee! When I was looking at getting an Affie WAY back when (before I got Strauss), I talked to many breeders, and they all called those whiskers "monkey feathers" lol


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i will admit, if i were to have a sighthound it would be the Borzoi.....they are just soooooooooo beautiful and elegant....and they don't look as skinny as the Saluki


----------



## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Nargle said:


> I see, that makes sense. I think that's what the Saluki owners at the dog show were referring to. The hips are set higher, which is why they look different.


It makes sense. From the AKC breed standard: "Hindquarters - Strong, hipbones set well apart and stifle moderately bent, hocks low to the ground, showing galloping and jumping power." So, yeah, I would expect to see a higher hip set, like the Afghan Hound.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

This is my Onana. She is 4 months old. She is a Tazy from Kazakhstan. Registered here, in USA ,as Saluki. She does not have that beautiful furnishing, but it helps, when hunting and running through thorny vegetation.


----------



## R.Scott (Sep 18, 2011)

There is nothing "wrong" if their ribs are showing. Sighthound metabolism is a bit different from some other dogs. Some sighthounds metabolism are a bit higher than other sighthounds, making them a bit thinner than some others of their same breed. Some of their muscles (like saluki, borzoi, azawakh) are built and are laid differently throughout the body. It's called "dry" muscle. They are flat and concealed, not buldgy and body-suit-like such as average dogs. Some people find it unattractive, others find it gorgeous.

What would be "wrong" is if you had an overweight sighthound. It causes such strain on the joints and skeletal structure, you would be stuck with an immobile dog at a young age. I think most people are use to the normal dogs like GSD and Labs, they aren't use to seeing or living around sighthounds. But it is very hard to get an oveweight sighthound. They can eat and eat and eat and hardly gain an ounce of fat! It's incredible. If only we had that sort of metabolism.

It's all in ones personal taste and it is unfair to call it "wrong" just because you don't like how it looks.



tirluc said:


> i will admit, if i were to have a sighthound it would be the Borzoi.....they are just soooooooooo beautiful and elegant....and they don't look as skinny as the Saluki


Borzoi are awesome. I live with one! But trust me, they are pretty skinny as well. You just don't notice it under all that hair.

Personally, I love all the sighthounds, ribs and all. I love the look of the azawakh. I've been considering getting one once I have more room for another dog.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

R.Scott said:


> There is nothing "wrong" if their ribs are showing. Sighthound metabolism is a bit different from some other dogs. Some sighthounds metabolism are a bit higher than other sighthounds, making them a bit thinner than some others of their same breed. Some of their muscles (like saluki, borzoi, azawakh) are built and are laid differently throughout the body. It's called "dry" muscle. They are flat and concealed, not buldgy and body-suit-like such as average dogs. Some people find it unattractive, others find it gorgeous.
> 
> What would be "wrong" is if you had an overweight sighthound. It causes such strain on the joints and skeletal structure, you would be stuck with an immobile dog at a young age. I think most people are use to the normal dogs like GSD and Labs, they aren't use to seeing or living around sighthounds. But it is very hard to get an oveweight sighthound. They can eat and eat and eat and hardly gain an ounce of fat! It's incredible. If only we had that sort of metabolism.
> 
> ...


Actually, all working, hunting and sleds pulling dogs should not be fat. For their working condition it would be better to show ribs and vertebrae, then to be plump. This is particularly obvious with sighthounds. To see many pictures of Eastern Sighthounds from countries of their origin, look up here. You will find them in Journals of Primitie Aboriginal Dogs Society (PADS): http://www.livestockguardiandogs.com/
Dogs conditioned for show would be considered unfit for serious work by a hunter. As usual, there is some variation within every group and very good at hunting hounds may have more or less conspicuoulsly visible muscles, but neither of them is a plumper. Among Siberian hunters, conditioning of Laika for hunting season is making it lean, if the dogs became somewhat plump during idling time in the summer. However, even those are never as fat as show conditioned dogs. You will see many pictures of all kinds of aboriginal dogs of the world in our PADS journals.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I agree with what has been said above. 

I am one of the people who loves Azawakh too  There really aren't many people who enjoy the sight of them. I once started a topic on another forum asking for people's general opinion on sighthounds, showing some beautiful pics of Azawakh--and was then asked whether I had started a bash-thread or not. NO I hadn't, jeez. Unfamiliar with sighthounds, much? I showed these pics by the way: 

















They aren't unsightly, are they? I love their look.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

Avie, your Azawakhs are beautiful. About 20 years ago, it was my dream to obtain Azawakh puppy. I liked the pictures and descriptions of their work and character of the breed. However, they were hard to come by then. At a later time, I could buy one, but their poor tolerance of cold and nasty weather stopped me. My Laikas can run and hunt at any weather conditions and they live outside a year around. Saluki are quite hardy dogs as well, but they certainly need a good roomy doghouse with plenty of hay, when it is cold outside. They are doing well in Virginia climate. Azawakhs are fast, elegant and their character of work is exactly what I like. We have four goats. My Laikas and Saluki may run, chasing someting and leave the goats not protected. Azawakhs would be more dedicated to guarding duty.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

That's exactly what I like in Azawakhs too; the fact that they can actually be considered guard dogs, which is very much unlike most sighthound breeds. If I could choose, I'd rather own a breed with guarding ability and one that doesn't immediately trust strangers than one that will happily wag its tail and demand to be petted with every random passerby.. and trespassers.


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Just off google, all the Salukis I've seen is pretty much like this. The owners tell me it's impossible to put anymore weight on their dogs.


That too me looks too thin. Not neccisairly due to the lack of fat. A little more muscle would make a huge difference. More food/protein might allow for more muscle mass. There are a few salukis who race were we race our LHW who don't look like that. In fact none of the racing dogs look like that.

Speaking of whippets I went to a couple of coursing events when I was gathering samples for my thesis NONE looked like that.

As for what I think is ideal. I keep (or try too, they are not like JRTs who tend to eat as much as they can and then some) the same weight on the whippets as I do the JRTs. Rib shadows visible when the dog is in motion. Dogs that when you forget about coat feel like the back of your hand.


----------



## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

Sighthounds4me said:


> This is Manero when he was 3 (he's now 8):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


AHHHH! Beautiful dogs. Those photos make it hard for me to think that I still have to wait so long until I get my Borzoi (Spring 2013!)

I love the look of sighthounds. So lean and elegent.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> Just off google, all the Salukis I've seen is pretty much like this. The owners tell me it's impossible to put anymore weight on their dogs.


This Saluki is just beautiful, and looks so healthy. Reminds me of a Saluki I saw at a show over the summer (Who took 1st.)


When we had our retired Greyhounds (fosters) we could always see their last 2-3 ribs, which I believe the be the perfect weight for them.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I have always wanted a Borzoi for years....... just like Manero...............this is my dream dog!  I just have no place for them to run.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

it's not that i think it's "wrong" for them to be skinny like that, my dogs are kept quite lean and i have had people tell me that i need to put more weight on them......i was just wondering how "skinny" is "too skinny"......i haven't gotten back to the club w/ this owner/dogs since i 1st posted this (her male is extremely aggressive w/ mine and tries attacking my little girl, Kilt, everytime she moves from my side...good thing he was always muzzled) so i can't get any pics of him, but i really think he (was) even thinner than that boy......mostly it was asked b/c of people on her case about it and she was asking me if i thought they were to thin and how she might be able to get a # or 2 on him.....


----------



## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

tirluc said:


> it's not that i think it's "wrong" for them to be skinny like that, my dogs are kept quite lean and i have had people tell me that i need to put more weight on them......i was just wondering how "skinny" is "too skinny"......i haven't gotten back to the club w/ this owner/dogs since i 1st posted this (her male is extremely aggressive w/ mine and tries attacking my little girl, Kilt, everytime she moves from my side...good thing he was always muzzled) so i can't get any pics of him, but i really think he (was) even thinner than that boy......mostly it was asked b/c of people on her case about it and she was asking me if i thought they were to thin and how she might be able to get a # or 2 on him.....


I would consider a greyhound with more then 4 ribs showing "too skinny" but that is just me. 
Its harder for me to say what I would consider "too skinny" on a saluki becasue I do not have much personal knowledge of them.



Abbylynn said:


> I have always wanted a Borzoi for years....... just like Manero...............this is my dream dog!  I just have no place for them to run.


Do you have a fenced in park near you that you could take one to? Even if you have an all size welcome (dog size) fenced in park you might be able to go if you muzzle the Borzoi. 
Or maybe some woods or a forest you could go out to.


----------



## R.Scott (Sep 18, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I actually find that rather unattractive. I normally really like sighthounds, but that is just wrong.


 This is what I was referring to as someone calling it "wrong".

Some deep chested sighthounds like borzoi, all their 'mass' is stretched downwards, making them all thin and narrow. They are SO deep chested, far more than a greyhound or saluki, you don't realize how much until you see one in real life.

Abbylynn - If you have a place to let them run off leash safely, you don't have to have a huge backyard. Borzoi are quite docile in the house. I mean, yeah, they do have their moments. My sis' borzoi sometimes RIPS around our house with my corgi and vallhund, they love it! But he's really a mellow dog in the house. We don't have a massive backyard, but we take all our dogs out on long hikes in the wilderness almost every other day or to the dog park to let him run. (just make sure there are no little tiny chihuahuas around or something) lol!

Azawakh <3:









This is a Hortaya Borzaya, which is a really close relative of the Borzoi. It's basically a borzoi, with no hair. This is how a borzoi would look if they didn't have any hair, they are quite thin as well.


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

Saying they are 'that thin' is like breeders who show labs that roll along as they move saying labs are 'just that blocky'. The pic of the one running is lovely. Many fit dogs when stretched out like that look thin. That dog seems to have lovely muscling. The botton dog doesnt' look fit to me, looks like people who try to keep dogs thin to make them look fit, but doesn't look bad, just not great.

Though the saluki in the one pic looks thinner than that dog (just has more coat). My whippets can get quite thin, esp one as she is very picky eater. And before someone says well the dog has a fantasic coat, which it does... I had a horse boarding with me that was ill and looked far worse than any dog posted so far and had the shiniest coat and thickest glossiest mane and tail of any horse I have ever owned.


----------



## Dezzoi (Sep 19, 2011)

These are dogs that are starving to death:

















No sighthound should look like this and they don't when they are healthy. Being able to see rib and muscle in a sighthound dog is normal. 
This dog:








Looks perfectly healthy for his breed. And yes, it IS hard to put weight on them - especially if they are younger as it is any dog. But, with sighthounds, they have a much higher metabolism then most breeds. They are running athletes and needed to be this way for the jobs that they were bred for. ( NOT work like a german shepherd or border collie) And it is so hardwired into their genetics now (especially still since we still do have hunting lines in our sighthounds) that they are born with it and don't really need any sort of training to be a good athlete.

They are dogs that need to be fit to run up to speed of sometimes 40 mph! And with salukis, sometimes miles and miles at this speed after gazelle.

Watch this video and try to image a german shepherd doing this or a border collie or a mastiff....It couldn't because it's not built for this sort of work, but saluki (and many sighthounds are)





Now...compare a cheetah to a lion. 
















The lion specializes in hunting big game like wildebeest, zebra, and sometimes cape buffalo.
The cheetah specializes in hunting nimble gazelle (rarely zebra, wildebeest and NEVER buffalo - usually babies of zebra, wildebeest, etc)

A cheetah can only run at 60-70 mph for about 30 seconds. They are built like the sprinters in the olympics (NOT the marathoners) and built much like the greyhound (who is a sprinter and not a marathoner) 
The marathoners are like saluki - much leaner and longer. 

( L to R ) Marathoner, sprinter - sprinter, marathoner









Greyhound running: 








Notice the bulging muscles like the sprinter?

Salukis running:








More leaner muscle like the marathoners.

How a saluki and whippet compare to a German Shepherd in a running sport:




You can't tell me a German Shepherd could out-match a saluki in a gazelle hunt. Why? Because that's the way they are built. Salukis were bred to hunt gazelle...german shepherds weren't, they were bred for something else - hence, they look different.

Sighthounds are genetically built like this. It's not "wrong" or nobody is starving them. This is just how they look. It was so hard for me to get some weight on my borzoi while he was growing up. His metabolism was just too high. He would eat like a horse (still does) and he will always be skinny. 

None of these animals (lion, cheetah, greyhound, saluki, etc) need any sort of training to make their bodies like this...they are born this way and just sharpen their skills throughout life. They don't go to gym or starve themselves. They just look like this because nature provided them with the body they needed to perform their tasks they were made for. 
The only sort of "training" (if you can eve call it that) that these dogs went through to look like this, was human intervention. You can't train a bulldog to have a short nose or train a mastiff to have a strong,large build...so you can't train a saluki (Or any other sighthound) to have a leaner build. It's just in their genes.

I have a friend who has 2 saluki and she's always jealous at how my dog runs so fast all the time. She can't get her dogs to run for beans. They just eat and rest and when they are outside they just sniff and they are STILL skinny.


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

That cheetah is better fed and has more body fat than that saluki by far. I have seen enough documentaries to know what cheetahs look like. Yes they have the same body shape as some sighthounds. BUT they aren't too thin. And starving to death is not the same as unhealthily underweight. 

Build does not equal body fat. Even a fat greyhound would outrun a fit GSD. You see the opposite side in bench labs. Where they get them fat so they look like they have substance. 

I am aware of body shape types for example. But I would bet that cheetah doesnt' have that much less body fat (% wise) than that lion. Having a deep chest and tight tuck up for a highly flexible back bone and lots of heart and room capacity is what gives them that look. 

No matter how much you starve that lion it will never look like that cheetah. Its not body fat that makes the type. 

And if you look at human athletes. Runners have about the same body fat as hockey players. But they look VERY different. Its NOT the fat that makes them long distance runners. Its the type of muscle (slow twitch) and where the muscles are build up that makes the difference.


----------



## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

Dezzoi- thanks for the videos! Wow.

I've had 3 retired racing greyhounds and was trying to picture them running alongside those saluki in the desert- nope. 200 yards and my guys would have blown a gasket, LOL. ;o)

Jen


----------



## R.Scott (Sep 18, 2011)

Dekka said:


> That cheetah is better fed and has more body fat than that saluki by far.


Um...I'm -pretty- sure that saluki gets fed every day. Considering it's someone's PET.

Also, where in that post did Dezzoi mention body fat percentage? I didn't see anything about body fat. Dezzoi's post made perfect sense, it was explaining body structure. It made me realize that the saluki's body structure is perfectly built for marathon runs compared to other sighthounds and other dogs. I think the only other sighthound that could run that long is the azawakh. (maybe some others that I'm not aware of). And it bares the same body structure (all ribby and skinny) if not more extreme than the saluki.

I think a fit GSD probably could keep up with an overweight greyhound (maybe not a chubby greyhound) but an obese one, yeah, probably, because the weight would be putting so much strain on the greyhound's joints. (I've seen it before and it's not pretty).

This would give you an idea on what an azawakh would look like if it gained weight. (Yes she is PREGNANT in this photo) but this is how they look like when they get "fat".








I couldn't find an overweight azawakh, because it's near impossible for them to gain weight, but this kinda gives the basic idea.

I think it's pretty obvious that sighthounds are meant to be skinny OR people just pinpointed on spending hundreds, to thousands of dollars to get these dogs and then starve them...


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Dekka said:


> Even a fat greyhound would outrun a fit GSD.


No way. Greyhounds don't have that much stamina in the first place, and fat greyhounds... are in no way athletic.



> No matter how much you starve that lion it will never look like that cheetah.


Conversely, no matter how much you feed that cheetah, it will never look like that lion.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I think people get freaked out when they see ribs and hip bones, but that does NOT mean the dog is starving or unhealthy. An unhealthy dog would lose muscle mass, which DEFINITELY needs to stay there if you want your sighthound to be able to run! A dog with no muscle mass is going to be slow and weak.

You can see when a dog is losing muscle mass especially in the hind legs. You can see how this dog's leg muscles are thin and weak, and his bones like the femur and the hip joint are more apparent. 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/904786723/
Sorry you have to click the link, I can't get the image to work.

These dogs, however, have strong muscles in their legs, and there are no protruding hip joins or femurs. The bones sticking out of the top of their hips are actually part of the pelvis. This is not the hip joint. If these dogs were unhealthy, the muscles would be the first thing to go, but they are obviously still there despite the ribs. They need all those muscles to run:

































Also, here's a picture of a dog skeleton to illustrate what I mean when I say that the dogs' hip joints aren't sticking out, it's the pelvis:


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

I would like to point out. I am not at all weirded out by the hips. I have known enough salukis to know that is normal. (even if they are on the plump side)

That 'fat' azawakh looks very wrong. But then so does a fat beagle. 

This looks to thin









The one posted looks too fat (or pregnant lol)

This one looks ok, but out of shape.









And the comment about no matter how much you feed the cheetah it won't look like a lion is exactly my point. The people who say its this shape that makes their ribs stick out.. no the shape is still the same. Yes hip bones and spine will stick out MORE. But the over all functional shape is not lost simply because the dog is under or over weight. The skeleton is there regardless.

As for the cheetah having more body fat. I have no idea what that has to do with the dog being someone's pet. One of my whippets went through a phase were he looked like that. It wasn't ideal, but that had nothing to do with being a pet. I have seen some VERY thin flyball dogs because they believe you need them that thin to run well (despite evidence to the contrary)

That said all my dogs.. JRTs included you can see the ripple of their ribs as they walk if they are shaved down. I don't like fat dogs at all! But there is no reason that that one saluki should be that thin on purpose. I mean if it won't eat more.. ok. But that coat looks pretty thick.. that dog is even thinner that in seems at first glance (first glance I thought not bad)


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Another thing is I suspect some of the photos that are "too thin" could be very young dogs that haven't quite filled out yet. They just don't have that kind of muscle mass if they're 10 months old instead of 3 years old.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Visible ribs do not necessarily mean that the dog is underweight. Also, most sighthounds like Salukis do NOT have thick coats. Their skin AND their fur is very very thin. Much much thinner than a JRT's coat. The thin skin/fur, flatter muscles, and high metabolism making it difficult for them to gain fat is a recipe that can easily produce visible ribs in a healthy dog. There are other factors that I would look for when trying to decide whether or not a dog is in the unhealthy underweight range, such as muscle mass (see above post). Someone can be a perfectly healthy athlete with very little body fat, plenty of muscle definition, and that doesn't make them underweight or unhealthy. But the way that a Saluki or Azawakh's muscles lay and are flatter will make it so that the ribs are more visible. Also I'm sure the depth/shape of the rib cage contributes, too. But also, just because there are sighthounds with no visible ribs does not mean that the ones that have visible ribs are unhealthy.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> Another thing is I suspect some of the photos that are "too thin" could be very young dogs that haven't quite filled out yet. They just don't have that kind of muscle mass if they're 10 months old instead of 3 years old.


That's true! Dogs tend to grow "up" before they grow "out." I suspect that that's the case with that first Saluki picture you posted.


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

I also have sighthounds. I am doing my thesis on whippets. I have visited hundreds of whippets this summer. I am not unfamliar with sighthounds. Many were race dogs, who were it is true thinner than (and by that I don't mean build, I mean body fat... all whippets are physically narrow) the conformations dogs. THough none were near as thin as the ones posted here. Also the salukis that race here are thin, yes you can see ribs as they move, but they have a lot more coat, when compared to a whippet or other short coated sighthounds. As well their skin is thicker (its genetically part of carrying the gene that allows for more coat). 

Yes some might be young. But that doesnt' mean looking at a thin dog one should say 'this is the ideal'. The comment would be this dog is still young and growing and when fills out won't look like that. But the general concensus was that yay its all great for dogs with sighthound blood to have lots of ribs showing. 

My hubby brought and ran the lure coursing equip for the saluki specialty a few years back. I can tell you that most of them did not look like fashion model waifs. They looked lean and fit for sure, but they didn't look frail and too thin.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

IMO, most of the Whippets I've seen have thicker muscles than Salukis. It seems as though Salukis tend to have much flatter muscles. Whippets are sprinters like Greyhounds, correct? It was explained earlier in the thread the difference between sprinters and marathon runners like Salukis. I personally would not compare the "ideal Whippet" to the "ideal Saluki" because they are separate breeds with separate purposes.

BTW, what is the problem with ribs showing if the dog is otherwise strong and healthy and can run? The dogs posted in this thread do not look frail or weak to me. A Saluki has to be pretty athletic and healthy to do the job it was bred to do.


----------



## R.Scott (Sep 18, 2011)

Dekka said:


> This looks to thin
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The first picture is of a native Azawakh that lives in the villages of Africa with the tribes people. We ALL know food sources are limited there. Of course this dog could have a few extra pounds put on, and the tribes people could as well.
The bottom pic is obviously someone's pet Aza that is getting at least 2 meals a day of high quality kibble, if not a raw diet and looks in beautiful condition to me, but apparently it's "out of shape"? If it were anymore toned, it would have some ribs showing...but then would that be considered too thin for some?
I don't get it...What do people want in these dogs?
If you don't want to even risk seeing your dogs ribs, stay well away from sighthounds.

Also, we were comparing the body structure of a greyhound to a saluki and they are different from eachother. Whippets are built differently from salukis. They are built more like greyhounds, so of course they will have more muscle mass and less ribs showing than a saluki.



Nargle said:


> IMO, most of the Whippets I've seen have thicker muscles than Salukis. It seems as though Salukis tend to have much flatter muscles. Whippets are sprinters like Greyhounds, correct? It was explained earlier in the thread the difference between sprinters and marathon runners like Salukis. I personally would not compare the "ideal Whippet" to the "ideal Saluki" because they are separate breeds with separate purposes.


My point exactly!


----------



## Dezzoi (Sep 19, 2011)

Dekka said:


> I would like to point out. I am not at all weirded out by the hips. I have known enough salukis to know that is normal. (even if they are on the plump side)
> 
> That 'fat' azawakh looks very wrong. But then so does a fat beagle.
> 
> ...


I fail to see how the one below is 'out of shape'.............


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

Looks to lack toning, that is not a bad thing (unless the dog is racing). Toning does not have to mean skinny. The dog doesn't look bad, just a little unfit. 

I wish I had some pics of some of the racing dogs with out their pinnies on. They look fit, they have muscles, you can see ribs, but they in no way look skinny or malnurioushed. Now I never said those dogs are actually malnoursihed, just that they look that way.

As for a dog from africa. My friend too pictures of real bedouin arab horses when visiting the middle east (in egypt I believe) I don't have access to the pics, but the horses looked very thin. That doesn't mean all arab horses should look like that. Its a different culture, animals are tools. They love them, but its different.

If keeping dogs that thin (as that saluki) was the best for running then most top racing salukis would look like that. Even a cursory google shows taht is not true. Even if it was, because yes racing animals, including horses ARE at their peak when thinner. However dogs, horses and people should NOT be kept at that fitness/body fat ratio for life. Its too hard on the body. 

I am at a loss why people think its good for sighthounds should be (not can be) skinny and that equals yay amazing running. Same as I will never understand lab breeders who say their breed needs to be fat, and that its just shape that makes it so you can't feel ribs unless you really push, and the squishiness is just part of the breed.


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

Nargle said:


> IMO, most of the Whippets I've seen have thicker muscles than Salukis. It seems as though Salukis tend to have much flatter muscles. Whippets are sprinters like Greyhounds, correct? It was explained earlier in the thread the difference between sprinters and marathon runners like Salukis. I personally would not compare the "ideal Whippet" to the "ideal Saluki" because they are separate breeds with separate purposes.
> 
> BTW, what is the problem with ribs showing if the dog is otherwise strong and healthy and can run? The dogs posted in this thread do not look frail or weak to me. A Saluki has to be pretty athletic and healthy to do the job it was bred to do.


You are right, they are seperate breeds, but this discussion is on all sighthounds. 

Sure it has to be althletic. But what about other factors, like longevity. Sure some will be that thin, that does not make it idea for all. LOL this example isn't even dog related... but. I have a horse, you can always see her ribs. There is nothing wrong with her and she is healthy. Its even some what common in her breed, thoroughbred. That does NOT mean that is the ideal fitness for her breed. Sadly all my saluki pics have pinnies on the dogs. And the afghans... well even with out the pinnies the hair wouldn't help.

Here is an example of the type I am used to seeing. See all angles  and yes some people not used to sighthounds would say OMG skinny dog. But if you look the dog has reasonable body fat for its body shape. 









Why its not good. A better fed dog will have better energy reserves. If you talk to marathon and ironman runners, they don't stay that thin and fit all the time. They just can't. If they tried to keep that shape just be not eating enough you damage the body. The too think dog I posted you can see ALL the ribs. That is not going to benefit that dog for running.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

This dog (the one that started all the controversy):









Does not look like this dog:









No one was saying that the ideal sighthound should look like it was starving. The dogs living in Africa are too thin because they're ARE probably starving. The show dogs and racing dogs of North America and Europe don't look like that though!



Dekka said:


> The too think dog I posted you can see ALL the ribs. That is not going to benefit that dog for running.


Obviously not because the dog you posted is a dog that lives in an impoverished area where food is scarce and even the people are starving. I think whether or not their dogs are in their ideal condition in not the top priority over there. The photos that I and a few other people posted do not look like the photo that you posted. Yes, you can see ribs on several of the dogs posted, but they aren't frail or sickly or starving. 



Dekka said:


> However dogs, horses and people should NOT be kept at that fitness/body fat ratio for life. Its too hard on the body.


Well, it has been mentioned many times in this thread that some of the dogs that look really skinny are YOUNG! And there have also been several posts showing what an older retired dog looks like.


----------



## acornah (Aug 10, 2011)

Airplane Ears by jhenkel.ca, on Flickr

This is my Saluki pup, 3.5 months in the picture. She gets fed a high-quality grain-free diet 3 times a day, as much as she wants. I'm not at all alarmed by the fact that her ribs show, and I think her weight looks great. She's a normal, healthy, happy Saluki. Her parents looked a bit thinner than this, but both are active coursers.

So far, no one has accused me of starving my pup. She is the way she is and I can't force her to eat more. Folks who are used to seeing non-sighthound breeds may feel alarmed when they see this weight, as ribs and hips showing on a lab, for example, is not the norm.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

This is my Onana. She is 6 months old now. She eats a lot of venison with fat and some raw skin. She is almost a "plumper", but she lives outside even now, when night temperature sometimes drops below freezing point.


----------



## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

acornah said:


> Airplane Ears by jhenkel.ca, on Flickr
> 
> This is my Saluki pup, 3.5 months in the picture. She gets fed a high-quality grain-free diet 3 times a day, as much as she wants. I'm not at all alarmed by the fact that her ribs show, and I think her weight looks great. She's a normal, healthy, happy Saluki. Her parents looked a bit thinner than this, but both are active coursers. So far, no one has accused me of starving my pup. She is the way she is and I can't force her to eat more. Folks who are used to seeing non-sighthound breeds may feel alarmed when they see this weight, as ribs and hips showing on a lab, for example, is not the norm.


That looks like a very happy and healthy puppy to me ;-)


----------



## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

there's an old saying that you can't put weight on a racehorse, and thatis true for a few reasons, they are high metabolism so the food you feed gets burned immediately, they are high energy and move around a lot thereby using up the food, and last but not least their frames cannot handle the excess weight and they become unhealthy if they get too large. My mum used to own racing greyhounds and she said you could feed a greyhound til the sun went down non-stop and it would hardly put on any weight. I've worked with racehorses and can say the same thing about Thoroughbreds. 

But we're not talking about greyhounds or racehorses, we're talking about a rarer breed. I liken the Saluki to a breed of horse called the Akhal Teke, these horses are from the same region as the Saluki and have a very similar build in relation to speed. they were built for speed, for high energy activities and their bone structure, anatomy and general appearence show this. they are also thin skinned and have a higher pelvis much like the Saluki as well.



















Both these animals were build for speed, too much muscle and fat prohibits the animal from getting to speeds necessary, so naturally their bodies evolved over time to be a thin speed machine. Both these animals are healthy.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

No doubt, this is true. By the way, most of wild canids, such as wolves, cannot be fed to become fat and heavy. This is adaptive. WOlf should be always ready to hunt and run fast, this is like with Saluki.


----------

