# So long, Beans. We will miss you!



## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

Beans got a new family a few days ago. It wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. Beans went to a great home. When we got there, the new owner had already went and bought him a ton of new stuff, and as we were leaving, Beans was on his was to his first vet visit with his new owner. He went to a large house with a huge fenced in yard and a VERY loving owner. There was a connection between them instantly. Here are the last few photos we got of Beans. The first is Beans in his crate on the way to his new family, and the second/third is me and Beans at a rest stop.


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## all4thedogs (Sep 25, 2006)

YAY for Beans!!!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Awww yay Beans... horrible weather to be driving in tho... hope you didn't have to go far. you'll have to post updates if you get any. Glad it wasn't too hard for you to give him up. I know that I have had a couple fosters (and still do) that will be tremendously hard to give up. Kudos for you


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

Luckiy we got about a 12 hour break in the weather, and we took it. 4 hours there, 4 and a half hours back (we had car problems, but it was so worth it anyways). We were about 30 miles from home when it started snowing again, and that night we got another like 3 inches.

When we had Beans, we took him to the vet and they treated him for mange and a bacterial infection in his paws. After a week of anti-biotics for his paws, they got WAY better, and about a month of medicine for the mange, and it was getting better, but was still there. We didn't have the money to get bloodwork done on him to find out for sure if it was Mange and not something worse, but it seemed to not bother him anymore. Well, the new owners took him to their vet, and they're putting Beans on at least 3 months of anti-biotics to get rid of his mange - 2 months to get rid of it, and a 3rd month to make sure it's gone. Hopefully it is mange, and not something else, and all of this isn't for nothing, but of course the new owners probably didn't tell their vet that we'd treated him for mange - and if they did, most of the vets I've dealt with are stubborn and don't listen half the time anyways.


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## jcd (Nov 20, 2007)

Congrats and Hooray for Beans!! He is adorable and it makes me happy to see a succesful adoption!! Good job!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

What their vet is doing is a little disturbing. Generally the test for mange is a skin scraping not bloodwork. Bloodwork might be to find out if there's an accompanying infection with the mange as usually there is from the scratching and skin damage caused from that. The proper course of treatment for demodex mange is an 8 week course of mange baths or dips (personally I prefer the baths) using a mite killing shampoo 2 weeks apart from eachother. That is what they did for my boston when he had it and it worked wonderfully. I actually ended up buying the mite shampoo myself from Jeffers pets and finishing the last 3 baths myself with out issues. Never had a reoccurance. I would be afraid that 3 months of antibiotics would make the dog antibiotic resistant. Def. would get another opinion or do a little research on my own on this one.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Yea Beans. Congrats on your new home. He is a great looking dog.


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> What their vet is doing is a little disturbing. Generally the test for mange is a skin scraping not bloodwork. Bloodwork might be to find out if there's an accompanying infection with the mange as usually there is from the scratching and skin damage caused from that. The proper course of treatment for demodex mange is an 8 week course of mange baths or dips (personally I prefer the baths) using a mite killing shampoo 2 weeks apart from eachother. That is what they did for my boston when he had it and it worked wonderfully. I actually ended up buying the mite shampoo myself from Jeffers pets and finishing the last 3 baths myself with out issues. Never had a reoccurance. I would be afraid that 3 months of antibiotics would make the dog antibiotic resistant. Def. would get another opinion or do a little research on my own on this one.


My vet is actually the one who said if it didn't go away, they'd need to do bloodwork. They weren't sure that it was mange, and at the time I barely had enough to get him neutured, so they gave me a discount on his neuturing so I could afford that and the medication they wanted to put him on. I'm not sure what the new families vet, but they said they were putting him on 2 months on meds, and a 3rd month to make sure it's completely gone, and gave them a special shampoo.

The more I think about this situation, the more I think the previous owners may have lied. They said they'd treated him for mange (which would mean they knew what the symptoms were), but they said this condition was "food allergies." Which, I agree, he does have a very weak stomach, and that may have just worsened the mange, but from what I've come to learn, mange is mainly from being extremely dirty, and things similar to that - not food allergies. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This is my first case of mange.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Mange is actually a parasite that is constantly present on dogs but only becomes active when they aer really young, really old, or have a compromised immunity system. Any vet would do a skin scraping to determine if it were truly mange as viewing this sample under a microscope provides irrefutable proof when you see the cigar shaped demodex parasite.


















Sarcoptic Mange

Generally with demodex mange it first presents on the face then moving to the chest and front legs then to the trunk area of the body. The original owners very well may have treated him for mange but may not have completed treatment throughly enough and it may have come back esp. if the dog is weakened by chronic allergies.

If this is a food allergy then the presence of mange is a good possibility since the immune system is already in a compromised state. Lastly 3 months of ANY antibiotic is totally overkill and should never be recommended by a vet that is well versed in canine health. Antibiotics are way to over used and disease and dog can built a tolerence or an immunity to the effects of antibiotics. A short term course might be warranted but you want the dog to build natural antibodies to whatever is causing the problem. If this is food allergies the vet should be suggesting allergy testing not long term antibiotic treatment.


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

He hasn't been diagnosed with food allergies, but I am fairly familiar with them, and from experience he shows the symptoms when on certain foods. He gets the runs, "pimple" looking bumps on his face, skin irriration (which he would already have from the mange and/or the mange made it worse). This went away when eating the right food, however. But the spots in his fur, did not.

He never had a problem with spots anywhere but on his back, and a littler redness to his skin on his chest, but no where else. Well, and his paws, but up until this point, we though was something else, and after hearing this, I'm not sure if I believe the vet on that one either. The vet said the irritation in his paws was a different kind of mange, but if it was mange, it wouldn't have gotten better on anti-biotics, and the rest of his skin stay the same, would it? Or is it possible for one kind of mange to be effecting his skin, and a different kind effecting his paws? I will attach photos of his back/paws when we got him, and them see if I can find more recent pictures.

These are from when we first got him: Noticed the spots on his back, and I'm sure you can't miss what's wrong with his paws.

















and this is the best most recent picture I can find: To me, he looks a million times better (especially his paws), but I don't think he needs another 3 months of treatment. It was really bad to begin with, but the new vet hasn't seen the first pictures before it started getting better.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

WOW those are some horrible looking paws... poor baby. The patchy pattern in his back fur isn't typical of demodex mange presentation but it does affect all dogs a little differently. Even with Scarcoptic mange it usually involves the face but not always.

demodex mange









but there are cases where the face is not that bad but the back is totally void of hair.
















you can see on this brown dog that his fce looks practically untouched from this angle.

Here is a link for scarcoptic mange
http://www.kleinbrookanimalhospital.com/sarcopticmange.htm

A foot shot of a dog with demodex mange 









Generally with any mange episode there is always accompanying bacteria, yeast, or fungal infection because of the vunerable state of the exposed and damaged skin. And IF the antibiotics cleared up his feet and not his body then there is something deeper working here. NONE of the treatments recommended for either type of mange is long term antibiotics. The only time I have heard of a skin issue taking a longer course of antibiotics is when the vet suspected a yeast or fungal infection, and at that they have to be type specific antibiotics or they won't do a thing except make your dog antibiotic resistant. 

This was copied directly frm the AVMA website:

*Sarcoptic Mange Mites*

*Mite Basics*
Microscopic sarcoptic mange mites cause sarcoptic mange, also known as scabies. Sarcoptic mange can affect dogs of all ages and sizes, during any time of the year. Sarcoptic mange mites are highly contagious to other dogs and may be passed by close contact with infested animals, bedding, or grooming tools.

*Diagnosis, Risks and Consequences*
Sarcoptic mange mites burrow through the top layer of the dog's skin and cause intense itching. Clinical signs include generalized hair loss, a skin rash, and crusting. Skin infections may develop secondary to the intense irritation. People who come in close contact with an affected dog may develop a skin rash and should see their physician. Sarcoptic mange is usually confirmed by taking a skin scraping and examining it under a microscope.

*Treatment and Control*
Dogs with sarcoptic mange require medication to kill the mites and additional treatment to soothe the skin and resolve related infections. Cleaning and treatment of the dog's environment is also necessary.

*Demodectic Mange Mites*

*Mite Basics*
Demodectic mange caused by demodectic mange mites is mainly a problem in dogs. Demodectic mange mites are microscopic and not highly contagious. In general, demodex mites are not spread to other animals or across species. A mother dog, however, may pass the mites to her puppies.

*Diagnosis, Risks and Consequences*
Localized demodectic mange tends to appear in young dogs (usually less than 6 months old) as patches of scaly skin and redness around the eyes and mouth and, perhaps, the legs and trunk. Itching is not common with this type of mite infestation unless a secondary infection has occurred. Unlike other types of mange, demodectic mange may signal an underlying medical condition, and your pet's overall health should be carefully evaluated. Less commonly, young and old dogs experience a more severe form of demodectic mange (generalized demodecosis) and can exhibit widespread patches of redness, hair loss, and scaly, thickened skin Dogs with demodecosis can develop secondary bacterial infections which require additional treatment.

Cats are rarely infected with demodex mites, and the cat demodex mite is not the same as the dog demodex mite. Affected cats develop hair loss, crusts and scaly skin around the face, neck and eyelids, and may excessively groom the areas. They may also be more itchy than dogs affected by demodex.

Demodectic mange is usually confirmed by taking a skin scraping and examining it under a microscope.

*Treatment and Control*
Your veterinarian will discuss treatment options with you. Treatment of dogs with localized demodectic mange generally results in favorable outcomes. Generalized demodecosis, however, may be difficult to treat, and treatment may only control the condition, rather than cure it.

Hope this helps.


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

I don't think there is any way that he could have Scabies. He spent most of his time with my dog Hailey, and a lot of time with my mums dog Precious which neither show any signs of any kind of illness. If anything it sounds like he might have a case of Demodectic mange, and the itching that occured was just caused by his food allergies. Which, as said before, when we found a food that worked, he stopped itching, stopped having the runs, didn't have bumps on his face anymore, ect. I think I will talk to the current owners about this. I was planning on writing them a letter, anyways. I talk mainly to the son, but his father is the care provider for Beans. His son is just the one who showed his dad the website, and set up the time/date.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

A little info on antibiotic use in dogs:

Antibiotics are often harmful to patients. Sulfa/trimethoprim (Bactrim Rx, Tribrissen Rx, Ditrim Rx, Sulfatrim Rx, SMZ-TMP, other generic names) is an antibiotic that can cause joint inflammation in Dobermans and is implicated in immune mediated thrombocytopenia (ITP) in many dog breeds. Thrombocytes are the platelets in the blood, responsible for blood clotting. Thrombocytopenia is a decrease in the number of platelets. Obviously, if they get low enough there is a great risk to the pet. This antibiotic is still widely prescribed, though. It has a broad spectrum of action, it is inexpensive and most of the time it doesn't cause problems. The ITP is almost always reversible if the medication is withdrawn. Remembering that this antibiotic can cause this problem may help to save your pet's life, though. Penicillins can cause severe allergic reactions, even causing sudden death in a few patients. Many antibiotics cause diarrhea. Chloramphenicol has been associated with aplastic anemia in several species. Enrofloxacin (Baytril Rx) and tetracycline antibiotics should not be given to growing pets unless absolutely necessary due to the potential for problems with absorption of the medications into bone and/or teeth, causing defects. Amikacin and gentamicin are aminoglycoside antibiotics. This group of antibiotics can cause deafness and kidney failure. Use of antibiotics should be restricted to conditions which are likely to respond to appropriate antibiotic therapy since these are not harmless medications. When they are necessary it is obvious that some risk of use is justified. http://www.vetinfo.com/dmedquestions.html

Conversely, in urinary tract infections and in skin infection cases called pyoderma, long-term administration of antibiotics may be necessary to eliminate tough infections. Often, with pyoderma, antibiotics are actually under-prescribed. According to veterinary dermatologist Rusty Muse of Tustin, California, most pyoderma cases require an appropriate antibiotic for as long as six to eight weeks to be effective. Dr. Muse states, “The skin receives only 4% of the heart’s output so effective blood delivery of antibiotic concentrations have a much more difficult time saturating the skin cells in microbe-killing amounts than in organs well perfused with blood such as the liver. At our dermatology clinic we have discovered that about 10% of the ‘allergy’ patients are actually suffering from chronic pyoderma and have not responded well to antibiotics previously used. Sometimes that failure for an infection to clear is due to too low of a dose being given or the dose not being given as often as directed or for as long as directed. In some cases, especially if a culture and sensitivity have not been done, the antibiotic chosen may not be the best choice for the specific bacteria causing the pyoderma.

“There are four principles to keep in mind regarding appropriate antibiotic use,” continues Dr. Muse. “One is that the correct choice of antibiotic needs to be made for a particular infection. The second is the proper dose must be given. Third is that the dose must be given at defined intervals because some medications should be given once a day and others four times a day to achieve consistent and effective tissue levels of the antibiotic. And finally, the antibiotic needs to be given long enough to truly effect a cure.”

In general, most veterinarians select what they consider to be an appropriate medication, and if the results are not favorable, laboratory identification of the bacteria and testing for the bacteria’s vulnerability to specific antibiotics is done. This is termed “doing a culture and sensitivity”. Should this be done in every situation where an infection is discovered? According to Mark G. Papich, DVM, Professor of Clinical Pharmacology in the College of Veterinary Medicine at North Carolina State University, “For routine infections, empirical treatment with ‘first line’ drugs can be used without obtaining lab tests (culture and susceptibility tests) first. For refractory infections, or cases that are more serious and/or life-threatening, lab tests are recommended.”
http://www.thepetcenter.com/article.aspx?id=3422


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

Hmm. The more I hear about this, the more I am thinking that the vet may have been wrong. I highly doubt the new owners took in the papers I gave them for his previous vet visits, and probably didn't tell the vet anything that I told him. He's a great owner, but he was very excited, and seemed to be very distracted (I know I would be, too.) I think I might call the vet reference they gave me and see if I can talk to the vet that treated Beans, or at least see if I can figure something out.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I would ABSOLUTELY recommend you call the vet reference with your concerns at the very least and find out how much of a history he got on beans. The course of treatment he is recommending could kill that poor dog. I would ask what testing he did to determine that a course of antibiotics for that long was warranted. I would also ask if he considered mange andif not why. Honestly that course of antibiotics is why I've been following this thread and supplying you with so much info. I KNOW he's wrong, and the new owners are too uninformed to ask for anything different, but then again anyone witha modicum of antibiotic knowledge should know that you NEVER use a course for 3 months with out justafiable cause. 

Please call him.


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

Supposed the 3 months of medication IS for mange. I'm not sure what kind they decided he has, but the son told me the vet said he has mange and will be on medication for 3 months and use a special shampoo.

I will call the vet first thing in the morning.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

To the best of my knowledge there is no oral medication that is called for in most treatment regimins for mange. Here are some sites n treatment of mange. If the dog wasn't full blown (and by looking at the pix I'd say not) then using shampoos and internal meds if there is no sign of accompanying infection is almost overkill. If this is simply demodex than the therapy baths should be sufficient enough to treat the problem with out the potential poisioning of the dog with antifungal, antibacterial meds.

http://www.mange-in-dogs.com/mange-in-dogs-treatment.php

I really like this one. It is quite informative and even addresses the whole antibiotic issue as well. 

http://www.vetinfo.com/ddemotreat.html
"It seems to help a lot to use an antibiotic for *secondary bacterial infections *during the first two to three months of therapy for demodectic mange unless treating an early case in which secondary bacterial infection hasn't occurred. It is also helpful to use an antibacterial and antiseborrheic shampoo to treat secondary skin disease and get rid of crusts and exudate on the skin. This is especially important when using amitraz. "

Again tho definitely need more info from the new family as to exactly what mange is being treated and the course that is recommended. Even with knowing which mange they suspect would give me a better idea of how to direct your treatment options with out causing undue risk to Beans.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> To the best of my knowledge there is no oral medication that is called for in most treatment regimins for mange. Here are some sites n treatment of mange. If the dog wasn't full blown (and by looking at the pix I'd say not) then using shampoos and internal meds if there is no sign of accompanying infection is almost overkill. If this is simply demodex than the therapy baths should be sufficient enough to treat the problem with out the potential poisioning of the dog with *antifungal,* antibacterial meds.
> 
> http://www.mange-in-dogs.com/mange-in-dogs-treatment.php
> 
> ...


Why on earth would you use an antifungal for a parasite?

Did you rule out ringworm? We went through a horrible bout of ringworm with our cats years ago after fostering an infected kitten that our vet told us had demodectic mange. That was fun. We got to give sulfur baths for six weeks.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

The point I was making is that sometimes vets recommend an antifungal antibiotic because often times with mage cases you have accompanying infections because of the vunerable skin. Ring worm would have been easily detectable and is contageous to people as well. It's pretty hard to mistake ringworm and mange to the well trained eye. BTW ringworm isn't a parasite but actually an infection cause by one of several fungi.









http://www.clivir.com/lessons/show/ringworm-in-dogs.html

BTW why would your vet recommend sulfer baths for suspected mange when you need to use a mite-a-cide shampoo like miteaban? Sulfa based shampoos are use to treat skin conditions like scaling or hot spots not mites or external parasites. I hate to say it but your vet sounds a little off base as he didn't recommend proper treatment for ringworm or mange.


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

Well I called the vet and they didn't tell me much. Basically walked around my questions, and kept repeating the same things "His fur is so bad we don't have a choice. He's clearly suffering from a bad case of mange." This is rather depressing.  I think I'm going to try calling again tomorrow and maybe, JUST MAYBE, I will get to talk to someone else.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Ya know if push comes to shove the rescue always has their adopton contract to fall back on in the "proper medical care" clause. I would absolutely speak to some one higher up in the food chain as this adoption is quite new and you still have rights.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

CWBullyBreedRescue said:


> Well I called the vet and they didn't tell me much. Basically walked around my questions, and kept repeating the same things "His fur is so bad we don't have a choice. He's clearly suffering from a bad case of mange." This is rather depressing.  I think I'm going to try calling again tomorrow and maybe, JUST MAYBE, I will get to talk to someone else.


If you talk to someone tomorrow, see if you can find out

1. How they diagnosed the mange. (Did they do a skin scraping?)
2. What is the course of treatment. (Name of "antibiotic", how long he'll take it, name of shampoo, how long to use it)

I have a hard time believing he'll be on an antibiotic unless there's a secondary infection or they're using antibiotic as a catch-all term that includes antiparasitic medication. 

And just to be persnickety - ringworm is also caused by a parasite, a fungal parasite.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Ringworm IS NOT a parasite but a fungal infection. (apparently my edit didn't take effect) BUT even tho some fungi can be parasites by definiton ( a single or multi celled organism) Yes some fungi can be parasitic since they are singular or multi celled organisms BUT to call all fungal infection parasitic in nature would be inaccurate. 

it is very disturbing to always see ringworm listed as a parasite. it leads many people to thinking that using a mite-a-cide like you could for mange would have the same effects and it does not. 

"The name "Ringworm" is actually quite misleading in regards to the related medical condition. Ringworm is now known to be caused by a fungal infection, and not by a worm. It was originally thought that the infection known as "Ringworm" was caused by a worm which infected certain animals, and created a circular lesion on an animal when it curled up underneath the skin. 
Due to current veterinary technology, we now know that Ringworm is caused by a fungal infection, and not by a worm. There are a few different types of fungus that can cause Ringworm, which is scientifically known as being called "Dermatophytosis". 

http://www.ringwormindogs.net/


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

Ringworm is a disease caused by a fungal parasite. Mange is a disease caused by an arthropod parasite. Heartworm is a disease caused by a roundworm parasite... 

A parasite is an organism that obtains nutrients or energy at the expense of its host. Fungi are, in fact, living, breathing organisms that, in the case of roundworm, are ingesting host keratin, causing an infection. It's true that not all fungi are parasites - the fungi that form lichens are mutualists with cyanobacteria. The lichens themselves often have commensal relationships with plants as epiphytes. Many fungi are free-living. But ringworm fungi (_Tinea spp_) are parasites.

Of course none of this has anything to do with the point of the thread. Beans is beautiful and came a long way under the OP's care. I hope his lingering health problems are solved and that he has a long and happy life with is new family.


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## CWBullyBreedRescue (Dec 10, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Ya know if push comes to shove the rescue always has their adopton contract to fall back on in the "proper medical care" clause. I would absolutely speak to some one higher up in the food chain as this adoption is quite new and you still have rights.


I would feel horrible having to take Beans back. He loved the guy he met (well, he loves everyone) and they seemed to have an instant bond. Having to take him away because their vet is a little off seems a little unfair to me. The "vet" was also a family friend, I find out, and maybe antibiotics was the cheapest way to go about things, and hopefully get him fixed up. Honestly, I think good shampooing would help a lot at this point. He's already came a long way. Maybe I could do a little research on his local vet clinics and see if any have some decent reviews. That's another problem - he went to a rather wealthy, but really small town. It's one of those towns that all the houses are huge and up on the hill, but the actually businesses of the city are all down a single street and are pretty run down looking.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

CWBullyBreedRescue said:


> I would feel horrible having to take Beans back. He loved the guy he met (well, he loves everyone) and they seemed to have an instant bond. Having to take him away because their vet is a little off seems a little unfair to me. The "vet" was also a family friend, I find out, and maybe antibiotics was the cheapest way to go about things, and hopefully get him fixed up. Honestly, I think good shampooing would help a lot at this point. He's already came a long way. Maybe I could do a little research on his local vet clinics and see if any have some decent reviews. That's another problem - he went to a rather wealthy, but really small town. It's one of those towns that all the houses are huge and up on the hill, but the actually businesses of the city are all down a single street and are pretty run down looking.


I wasn't meaning by taking him back. I simply was meaning that the vet should have to release info to you about the dog's care in detail. I'm sure he went to a great home. It's not their fault the vet is a moron.


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