# Are metal collars a signal to others?



## pi1otguy (Jan 1, 2011)

On large, powerful, or "dangerous" breeds are metal collars supposed to be a subtle "stay away" signal to others? I'm not talking about spiked or other decorative metal, but chain or pronged collars.

Maybe I'm oddly biases but am I the only one that gets sense that a metal chain (choke or otherwise) is like almost like a Scarlett letter for a large dog? What about dogs that you always see wearing pronged or pinch collars? I'm not talking about just during a training phase for a few weeks but months or even years later?

I don't have a fact based logical reason for it but chains, prongs, and the like always give me the impression that the owner believes something could happen at any moment and only the strength of a metal chain can hold it back. Obviously I try to suppress the bias, but for the now the best I can do is read my dog's reaction to them and act based on that.

Am I the only one that makes this connection?


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I used to use prong collars is was more about pulling,and sometimes prey drive or dog reactivity. Its more likely to be used on large dogs because they pull harder.

Heavy chains around the neck,or backwards prong collars are more about showing off,kind of dog gangsta bling,I don't know if those dogs are actually dangerous or not.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I never really got that impression. I usually think that either the owner is uninformed about types of collars and their uses or that if the dog is really large that the owner might think that a metal collar is the only way to control them especially if they have broken regular buckle collars before.

When I was a child we used a choke chain on our English springer spaniel for a few months. She was the sweetest dog you'd ever meet and wouldn't hurt a fly but she was never trained not to pull and the logic at the time was to get one of these "training" collars. I'm sure there are lots of people who haven't researched or found the newer training techniques or no pull harnesses.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Prong collars, used correctly (not like stupid inside out spikes or something) are a tool. There are a wide variety of training tools and techniques and I have found that some dogs respond VERY well to the prong. The majority of dogs I know that are walked on a prong collar are not dog aggressive but have a high prey drive and the strength to drag a person along after a rabbit if they desired. There are also dogs that I switch between harnesses and prong collars depending on the situation, especially while training or if I know that I need to be able to hold the dog close and control their head better than I can on a harness. Probably 80% of the time I use harnesses, I feel they are safer, but prong collars serve a purpose for me too. 

I look at how an item is being used. I see people yank a dog around on a flat collar and others walk a dog relaxed on a choke chain that I can see is basically being used as a no-slip collar. The only time I "judge" a style of collar or harness is one that has no functional purpose except to look tough. Like a widely oversized studded collar on a puppy or small dog for example. But that's a pretty limited amount of gear.

I understand your thought process though- I've had people look askance at the dogs when for example, I used a harness and a chain leash on a pit bull. The chain leash wasn't bling, it was cause the dog kept trying to bite/chew her leash and within a few walks of using the chain leash, she lost interest in that. Or my heavy leather harness that can look "tough" but I chose for a sturdy and highly adjustable harness that did not have sliding straps or plastic buckles. I needed a tough harness in the sense of being able to stand up to heavy use, not a harness to look tough, if you get my meaning.


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## pi1otguy (Jan 1, 2011)

And obviously prongs and chains have their use. I was just under the impression that prongs and choke chains in particular are training aides that a dog "graduates" from over time. Oddly, the chain lease doesn't mean anything to me, just the collar.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I fully intend to get the dog I am using a prong on now out of one, eventually, but ultimately it's going to take time - because he's not on it because he doesn't know how to loose leash walk, he's on it because he loose leash walks beautifully 99% of the time, and the other 1% - well, he's a 27" high, 100lb, 10 month old puppy, who really likes pouncing after butterflies. I don't like my face hitting asphalt. 

I suspect a lot of people do think he's out of control or dangerous, but it's hard for me to judge since we don't spend a lot of time around strangers and their dogs, and, again, he's a 100lb puppy who looks kind of intimidating. People would probably be steering clear of us, anyway. ;-)

The only message it sends TO ME, provided it's used properly and isn't on a tiny dog, is either 'strong dog' or, more likely, 'strong dog in training'. Used wrong or on a tiny dog my assumption is 'asshole owner'.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

It may seem weird but at a time I used studded collars,because of loose aggressive dogs. Sense I had loose dogs grab at my dogs necks before,I thought it could bring a little protection. One time I really think it did. That's what spiked collars originally where intended for actually.
I of course won't use plastic buckles,I know they can break and its not worth it. He has broken and bent metal before,I do not trust plastic.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I actually like the look of the choke chains. I just recently started using on Royce correctly. He is a little over 50 
Lbs which is big for me, and he is a puppy that forgets what he is doing every 4 seconds and jerks me around, I tried the harnesses, no pull and what not they don't work he just pulls through them...however even when he gets there and walks beautifully 100% of the time, I may still use a chain collar because they are pretty and don't bunch his hair all up. 

So because of that I don't get much of an impression from them what so ever. A friend of my sister had a chi that had this little tiny pink choker on her, she looked adorable. The girl never let that darn dog actually walk, so it was mainly jaunt am accuser ray that can easily slip on and off....and was cute.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Oh ya...and he too snaps all the other collars with just a gentle tug in the wrong direction lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh yeah. No plastic fasteners and no even METAL clip together collars. Buckles, ONLY, regardless of the material of the collar (easier to find with leather collar, though).


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I tried head halter(gentle leaders) but he is a pain with them,he had it for months but couldn't get used to it. Would head butt people and rub his head against anything near by. 

I mainly use a martingale collar now. Although not quite as effective as a prong,I was also having issues with the prong collars getting bent up. I also don't like prolonged use of choke-chains,I`m worried it may cause issues. They also can't escape from it like sometimes they can with choke chains.

For tie outs or heavy pullers I would say the most durable and safest is wide nylon collar with a quality metal buckle.

With my first dog she was talented,she could escape a flat collar and a choke chain/prong collar at the same time if attached together,in only a couple seconds. Then she was likely to run off and either chase cats,or look for people to pet her.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Oh yeah. No plastic fasteners and no even METAL clip together collars. Buckles, ONLY, regardless of the material of the collar (easier to find with leather collar, though).


Yeah, if I'm truly worried about a dog either escaping or powering through a collar/harness, then it is belt style buckles or martingales only. The exception being the Ruffwear harness because I've found the multiple straps to be great for wild dogs. Worked very well for securing my highly reactive foster Frankie.

A prong collar can pop open, it can actually be less reliable than flat buckle collar (even a plastic buckle), so it should be used along with a martingale or choke chain back-up (or similar)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> Yeah, if I'm truly worried about a dog either escaping or powering through a collar/harness, then it is belt style buckles or martingales only. The exception being the Ruffwear harness because I've found the multiple straps to be great for wild dogs. Worked very well for securing my highly reactive foster Frankie.
> 
> A prong collar can pop open, it can actually be less reliable than flat buckle collar (even a plastic buckle), so it should be used along with a martingale or choke chain back-up (or similar)


Yeah, I've never taken Thud's buckle collar off, just used the prong on top of it. I wouldn't use it to keep a dog from escaping, just from dragging me on my face.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Sometimes I think just having a big, powerful dog to begin with repels some people, regardless of the collar. Sam has a copper-colored fursaver (chain) collar that I use on the "dead" ring, meaning that it doesn't tighten. I like that it blends well with his fur and I use it with his flat leather collar as a backup. He is strong and I use a chain collar to stay in control at those times like CaptJack mentioned. At some point, I may opt for a prong, but again, not as a substitute for training.

Ironically, I got more "aggressive dog" comments when one of my dogs wore a halti head collar because people thought it was a muzzle. I think most of our neighborhood think Sam is some kind of police dog in training or something, particular
Y since I work on training so much on walks. Lol


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, I've never taken Thud's buckle collar off, just used the prong on top of it. I wouldn't use it to keep a dog from escaping, just from dragging me on my face.


But then you are missing all those good face in the gravel moments to put on youtube.

Sometimes a dog can walk like this:









Or sometimes they have moments like this in which (if on leash) a prong collar can save your butt (she might be only 55 lbs, but she's ALL muscle and drive)









While he may look loaded for bear, this dog is about the most gentle dog towards other dogs ever. Non-reactive and non-aggressive to basically everything.









Whereas this dog, with simple get-up, was the most reactive/aggressive one that I've had. (aka, can't judge a dog by her collar)


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

The last time we were at the Lake, a person came past being towed along by his Rotty on a prong collar. He had just got past us when all of a sudden the dog was loose. Luckily the dog did not bother with the Golden my niece had in the water with her and just walked out into the Lake. The owner then spent the next ten minutes trying to get the dog to come to them. He finally had to wade out and get him.

I picked up a good sturdy martingale collar for Kris at a garage sale. I had been using the small ones I use in Agility as they are easy to put on and off the little dogs at the trials, but I never really trusted them. Kris is good walking on leash but every once in a while she will take a leap wanting to play and she has almost pulled me over when I just had the flat collar on her. It is also the only collar other than a flat one that you can have at Agility trials even if you are not entered.


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

I do not feel that they are a "Stay away" signal. They are a tool like others here have said. I use a prong on my very strong well muscled 56 pound 11 month old Australian Shepherd. He walks great on lead 98% of the time the other 2% he is being a VERY strong overly happy puppy. And when he acts like that I am likely to get a faceful of concrete or dirt. And let me tell you, that HURTS. I no longer use a prong on him however because his fur is so long the prongs get stuck in his fur when I go to remove it after the walk. Which is a pain in and of itself. I now use a fursaver or choker on him, along with a flat buckle collar.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

My only thought when I see a dog wearing a training collar is "I hope they know how to use that properly."

If they actually want people to be afraid of their dog they just need to use a head halter. =/ The two times I walked my dog in one we had people crossing the street to avoid us. The sight of something that looks like a muzzle seems to strike some people with fear. My SO even admitted until he knew what a Halti was, he thought it meant the dog was a biter and was wary of those dogs.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

I use choke chains on all my dogs when teaching them to walk properly on a leash. But if you see the owner trying to choke the dog and pulling as hard as they can or constant pressure (tight leash) id stay away from both of them! 

Prong collars ive never used because ive never been taught how to use them, but like choke collars or as i prefer "training collars" or "correction collars" they are used as a tool and shouldn't be used at all if not used correctly. Also, they should never be left on. Always take them off when you're not walking!

But no i wouldnt consider it as a warning because its not for that purpose. 


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have seen too many of those prong collars 'pop' and now the dog is loose without a collar on it. I personally think that too many people who use them have no idea the proper way to use them. Often times the collar is too big and not being effective when the dog is pulling. Also, the prongs themselves are way to big for the dog it is on. 

My own experience with the plastic snap buckles the other dogs would chew on them causing the collar to fall off the dog. Or I would find the collar out in the field just laying there open. I went back to the metal buckle collars. There are those plastic buckle collars with the new designed ring. The metal ring was place on the collar to take the weight of the pull to prevent the buckle from opening.. trouble is most owners do not have the collar on right. The ring is flopping out in the breeze and not on the collar like it was designed to be. I explain to the owners how the ring is supposed to go on. The owners are thankful because they just could not figure out how to put the collar on. 

I like a good quality flat leather buckle collar. This way I can not only attach tags to the collar but I also will marker my phone number on the collar or will have it stamped on the collar. I have seen too many dogs enter a shelter with just a 's' hook attached to the collar ring and no tags. 

For me metal collars on a dog is more of a clue to me about the owner than the dog itself.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I`m the only one I feel that can walk him right now,even with a prong collar he's pulled over people. I learned leather collars and some metal buckles and clips are not strong enough for him. He's a bit hard to completely stop from pulling,he generally ignores treats away from home,and even if you stand still he will still try to pull,pull,pull.
About a year old in first pic,five years in second.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

I'm 100% against prong collars and choke chains! there are diffirent ways to train your dog not to pull. these chain can insure your dog very badly very easy and I perfer positive training above choking a dog.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

luv mi pets said:


> For me metal collars on a dog is more of a clue to me about the owner than the dog itself.


 For me too. They're like a giant neon billboard, I find it difficult to miss the message.





pi1otguy said:


> I was just under the impression that prongs and choke chains in particular are training aides that a dog "graduates" from over time.


 Which begs the theoretical question, why not just train properly from the very beginning ?
IME I've never seen a dog 'graduate' from a prong or choke. They're habit-forming. Like heroin - once you're in, you're pretty much in for life. Kudos to the select few who are able to kick the habit, at least without professional help. Which again begs the same question.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> Which begs the theoretical question, why not just train properly from the very beginning ?
> IME I've never seen a dog 'graduate' from a prong or choke. They're habit-forming. Like heroin - once you're in, you're pretty much in for life. Kudos to the select few who are able to kick the habit, at least without professional help. Which again begs the same question.


I sometimes start the new adult dogs on a prong collar. Why? Because when I get a wild child dog that is strong enough to pull me down the street (even on a front attach or "no pull" harness, on a flat collar, on a martingale collar or on a flat harness) and has NO training - not "sit", "Stay", "Wait" or "Look at me" - and has a high prey drive, well, a prong allows me to SAFELY exercise the dog sufficiently. Without good exercise, there's minimal luck getting their attention enough for training. Without good exercise, the dogs are forces of destruction basically.

So I start them in a prong. Meanwhile, I work on basic obedience starting in low distraction areas and moving towards higher distraction areas (indoors first, then my backyard, then my front yard, then a quiet park and finally a busy public area). Treats abound and as the dog progresses towards being able to actually pay attention to me, I begin to take walks on a plain harness, again, starting with calmer areas or even my yard if needed (and more controlled settings with minimal risk of loose dogs etc) and moving up to parks and then finally crowded areas.

I don't use it for puppies, I don't use it for fearful dogs, I don't use it for reactivity. Every one of my fosters has progressed to walking relatively well on a flat harness. Depending on where the dog started from (how much training they had) and how long I had them, some were more well mannered than others by the time they were adopted, but all of them could go on a normal neighborhood walk on a flat harness on a loose leash.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

pi1otguy said:


> ...chain or pronged collars.
> 
> Maybe I'm oddly biases but am I the only one that gets sense that a metal chain (choke or otherwise) is like almost like a Scarlett letter for a large dog? What about dogs that you always see wearing pronged or pinch collars? I'm not talking about just during a training phase for a few weeks but months or even years later?
> 
> ...


I think you are over-analyzing. Yes, these are training collars. However, training is not a once-a-day or only some places or only some times thing. Effective training is done in many different situations.

In general, we double-collar our dogs (walking collar + training collar). Obviously, it depends on the situation.

There are situations where a metal collar is not safe and should be removed or replaced by an appropriate type. There are situations where the "rules" prohibit training collars, and in those situations they should also be removed/replaced by an approved collar. There are situations where ANY collar is unsafe or prohibited, and obviously you have to be aware of those as well.

Otherwise, I don't see an issue. YMMV.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I'm happy that I'm not alone when it comes to people thinking that Manna is vicious when she wears her holt. It's bright pink but people still think it's a muzzle. 

Happily enough I rarely have to use it now a days. Actually yesterday was the first time I've had to put it on her in nearly 2 months. we missed 2 days of walks due to my legs. She was eager to say the least.

Graduation can and does happen and I am slowly phasing the walking aid out of use with Manna, but all too often I see no pull devices used as a life long crutch because in general the average dog owner doesn't have the time or know how to train a loose leash walk. 

*if you're on these forums then you not average. And yes there are exceptions to all rules and statments


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Why don't I start with positive? 

Well. I did. But we all know teenaged puppies backslide, yes? And how prey drive develops as they approach maturity? Yeah, both have happened -mostly prey-drive. How do you stop a dog who is capable of physically moving you from self-reenforcing? I LIKE positive. I am 99% positive. I combine the prong with lots and lots of treats and LAT, but the dog is taller than I am, stronger than I am, and weighs awfully close to what I do, on top of it. I can't stop him pulling me on my face, however well I might be braced, in a regular collar or harness. I have tried a no pull harness - since his issue is short, intense lunges, they appear not to work at all, and I still end up getting yanked - off my feet and onto my face. The head-collar, while I tried and am still trying to positively acclimate him to, is both a risk of serious neck injury with his 'fish on a line' behavior, and he still needs to be walked. 

Without being a serious safety risk to me, or anyone else trying to handle him. 

I may or may not get him away from it. It is my intention. He uses it far less frequently now, and I'm able to slow start predicting when he is going to suddenly leap forward and ask for an incompatible behavior, and work on desensitization. Unfortunately, there are times that the triggering event occurs before I can, and since he doesn't pull steadily but gathers himself and leaps straight forward in less than a second, and the circumstances are beyond my control (wildlife, mostly), I need to NOT have my face busted open until then. 

So, you know. Form the opinion you like, but at least I still have my teeth.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

linneke said:


> I'm 100% against prong collars and choke chains! there are diffirent ways to train your dog not to pull. these chain can insure your dog very badly very easy and I perfer positive training above choking a dog.


I wouldnt say theyre negative. Theyre are negative ways to USE them, but when used properly id consider them positive. I used to use flat collars and had many trachea issues with one dog, harnesses never worked with the pulling issue so i went and learned how to use choke chains because id never just throw one on. 

My dogs are completely happy to go on walks, i usually have 2 collars on during walks, the choke chain and another and depending on how we are or what we are doing i will use one or the other. My dogs walk beside me on a loose leash, and ill use a choke chain or the leather collar. 

Negative training would be if youre constantly jerking or pulling in the leash, having a constant tight leash or lifting the dog off the ground. Choke chains arent necessarily meant to choke your dog, theyre training tools.

To me negative training is hitting, electric bark collars, scaring the dog into what you want him to do, or even not rewarding the dog is what i consider negative training. 

I positive train my dogs, rescue and from breeders and for me though they are all different, they all respond well to it. If i find a dog is a constant puller, obviously i will not put a choke chain on them and just watch them choke themselves. On a constant puller it takes time , lots of time. 

So in other words, choke chains can be used for positive training, if they are use correctly 


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> I wouldnt say theyre negative. Theyre are negative ways to USE them, but when used properly id consider them positive. I used to use flat collars and had many trachea issues with one dog, harnesses never worked with the pulling issue so i went and learned how to use choke chains because id never just throw one on.
> 
> My dogs are completely happy to go on walks, i usually have 2 collars on during walks, the choke chain and another and depending on how we are or what we are doing i will use one or the other. My dogs walk beside me on a loose leash, and ill use a choke chain or the leather collar.
> 
> ...


I see it more as there are negative ways to use it and there are even more negative ways to use it. why? because if you don't even 1ce choke your dog whit it your dog wouldn't make any difference in between a choke chain or a regular collar. 
I did use a gentle leader just for security when I was pregnant and still walking whit my 3 dogs at once. there are so many other tools for pulling that don't hurt your dog even once or at least not as much as a choke chain... like a choke lead, u-lead, half-chek, gentle leader, halti.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> I see it more as there are negative ways to use it and there are even more negative ways to use it. why? because if you don't even 1ce choke your dog whit it your dog wouldn't make any difference in between a choke chain or a regular collar.
> I did use a gentle leader just for security when I was pregnant and still walking whit my 3 dogs at once. there are so many other tools for pulling that don't hurt your dog even once or at least not as much as a choke chain... like a choke lead, u-lead, half-chek, gentle leader, halti.


Do you realize how much more dangerous headcollars are over prongs?


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Do you realize how much more dangerous headcollars are over prongs?


I'm not a fan of those either, you have to use all training tools in the right way. 
I did use a gentle leader but my dogs never even once pulled whit the GL on, it just calmed them down when I put it on and it gave me more control when keeping them short to pass other dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> I'm not a fan of those either, you have to use all training tools in the right way.
> I did use a gentle leader but my dogs never even once pulled whit the GL on, it just calmed them down when I put it on and it gave me more control when keeping them short to pass other dogs.


Yep. That was my experience with the prong. The head-collars inspired a 'fish on a line' response, which is frankly asking for a serious neck injury. We're working on acclimating him to it, but he isn't there yet and I'm not going to risk breaking his neck so he can take a walk.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yep. That was my experience with the prong. The head-collars inspired a 'fish on a line' response, which is frankly asking for a serious neck injury. We're working on acclimating him to it, but he isn't there yet and I'm not going to risk breaking his neck so he can take a walk.


For any dog that lunges a head collar is a BIG NONO. 
When I was at the vet college in the maritimes, head collars were starting to become popular...I have never seen so many cases of whiplash in my life


edit: I'm not completely against the use of head collars. I have a holt for my puller. But she doesn't lunge, she just pulls out of excitement and it's a slow constant force when she sees other dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Flaming said:


> For any dog that lunges a head collar is a BIG NONO.
> When I was at the vet college in the maritimes, head collars were starting to become popular...I have never seen so many cases of whiplash in my life
> 
> 
> edit: I'm not completely against the use of head collars. I have a holt for my puller. But she doesn't lunge, she just pulls out of excitement and it's a slow constant force when she sees other dogs.



Yeah, and that's the difference - he doesn't pull. He goes from a nice loose leash walk by my side to 10 feet ahead of me in the blink of an eye. He'd REALLY hurt himself doing that on a head collar. Never mind the initial response. It'd be nice for me for winter, if we get this other thing under control, though.

(Basically: Totally agreed.)


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

what I see so much when I walk my dogs are owners who let the tool do the training. they just forgot that the tool is to help you train your dog better. there is a lady in my neighborhood who walks her maltese whit a choke chain on a flexi and has no control over her dog at all... grrrr...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> what I see so much when I walk my dogs are owners who let the tool do the training. they just forgot that the tool is to help you train your dog better. there is a lady in my neighborhood who walks her maltese whit a choke chain on a flexi and has no control over her dog at all... grrrr...


A flexi and a choke chain is a dumb combination. 

OTOH, you'd never know what I was training if you saw Thud for 99% of his walk because well. The training it's there to do is specific to prey-drive and to keep me from dying when he spots a butterfly/squirrel/cat/rabbit. So unless you saw one of those, he'd be trotting neatly along at my side on a loose leash, wearing a prong. If you saw one of those you'd quickly understand it was there for control but there was no training. Only, ONLY, if you saw me standing 30 feet away from some small fuzzy animal doing LAT would you realize there was training associated. 

I mean, don't get me wrong, a lot of people smack 'em on the dogs and let them lunge and pull to their hearts content and that's STUPID, and dangerous (more so with chokes than prongs), but. You can't always know what's going on, either.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

linneke said:


> I see it more as there are negative ways to use it and there are even more negative ways to use it. why? because if you don't even 1ce choke your dog whit it your dog wouldn't make any difference in between a choke chain or a regular collar.
> I did use a gentle leader just for security when I was pregnant and still walking whit my 3 dogs at once. there are so many other tools for pulling that don't hurt your dog even once or at least not as much as a choke chain... like a choke lead, u-lead, half-chek, gentle leader, halti.


When use correctly, it doesn't hurt the dog at all. Im also saying that using a choke chain or "correction collar" (as i call them) doesnt mean it isn't positive training. There are little differences between a choke chain and a normal collar. I just find choke chains are so much more easier and stay where you want them to be. I find them more effective, and i also find regular collars useless. Dont get me wrong, it can still be done, but its just more complicated. Ive seen issues with collapsed tracheas all the time with flat collars. 


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> When use correctly, it doesn't hurt the dog at all. Im also saying that using a choke chain or "correction collar" (as i call them) doesnt mean it isn't positive training. There are little differences between a choke chain and a normal collar. I just find choke chains are so much more easier and stay where you want them to be. I find them more effective, and i also find regular collars useless. Dont get me wrong, it can still be done, but its just more complicated. Ive seen issues with collapsed tracheas all the time with flat collars.
> 
> 
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I use a correction collar, but I'm going to say really loud and clear: You don't know what positive means. Training collars -INCLUDING no pulls and head collars - work by making pulling unpleasant for the dog. That means they're aversive. Aversives are not a positive training method. Positive training does not mean positive outcome.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I use a correction collar, but I'm going to say really loud and clear: You don't know what positive means. Training collars -INCLUDING no pulls and head collars - work by making pulling unpleasant for the dog. That means they're aversive. Aversives are not a positive training method. Positive training does not mean positive outcome.


If someone isnt having a positive outcome than maybe they aren't using it properly?

Either way its how you use it is what makes it positive or negative, not the tool itself. 


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Doglover65 said:


> If someone isnt having a positive outcome than maybe they aren't using it properly?
> 
> Either way its how you use it is what makes it positive or negative, not the tool itself.


When talking about animal training, the words "positive " and "negative" are not referring to the outcome. A prong collar, choke collar, head halter etc-- anything designed to make an action by the dog unpleasant and thus discourage that action- are not consider positive (as in, positive reinforcement)

Here's a basic overview of the terms


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> If someone isnt having a positive outcome than maybe they aren't using it properly?
> 
> Either way its how you use it is what makes it positive or negative, not the tool itself.
> 
> ...


 CptJack means that just because you have a positive outcome it doesn't mean that your training methods are positive.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> CptJack means that just because you have a positive outcome it doesn't mean that your training methods are positive.


Yep. Exactly. 

I use a prong, but it's not positive training. The chart Shell posted is good, and cleared some things up for ME.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

linneke said:


> CptJack means that just because you have a positive outcome it doesn't mean that your training methods are positive.


A positive outcome is enough for me ✋ 


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

If dog owners would concentrate on training more so than walking, we would see more dogs walking than pulling. 

I feel some owners just are lazy and don't care if their dog does not listen. These same owners comment on how they wish their dog would listen like yours. Yet they will not take the time or give up when the dog starts acting up. How I wish these owners would opt for a stuffed dog than a real dog.


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## Katsura (Aug 23, 2013)

Yikes I didn't realize collars made such a big difference o.o my head is swimming. I didn't even realize there were so many different types of collars out there... I had to google most of the ones you guys even mentioned.

The only time I have ever seen anyone use any of the collars you guys have mentioned is with my grandma; she uses choke collars on her labs because they're out of control. However, after 2 faceplants and the messed up face to match, I can tell you that they either don't work, or she's not using them correctly.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Katsura said:


> Yikes I didn't realize collars made such a big difference o.o my head is swimming. I didn't even realize there were so many different types of collars out there... I had to google most of the ones you guys even mentioned.
> 
> The only time I have ever seen anyone use any of the collars you guys have mentioned is with my grandma; she uses choke collars on her labs because they're out of control. However, after 2 faceplants and the messed up face to match, I can tell you that they either don't work, or she's not using them correctly.


Choke chains are tools , not miracle workers (sadly)  
Id suggest her seeing a trainer (and leaving the choke chain out, some are oddly sensitive) about the pulling issue because a choke chain wont solve it. In the mean time tell her to no longer use to choke chain, and use a harness as collars on hard/constant pullers is not a nice thing.


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

I used a prong collar on my big dog. She's a lot stronger than I am. Haven't needed to use it in a long time now. She's the friendliest dog you've ever met, the collar was strictly to give me some leverage on walks.


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## LadyB (Mar 7, 2013)

I think metal collars have their uses. To me, a metal collar is a signal for me to keep my dog away from your dog—not because your dog is dangerous, but because I've heard too many stories of dogs getting their teeth/palates injured/removed if their teeth get caught in a metal collar while playing/interacting.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

linneke said:


> I'm 100% against prong collars and choke chains! there are diffirent ways to train your dog not to pull. these chain can insure your dog very badly very easy and I perfer positive training above choking a dog.


Actually, a prong collar is the safest collar to put on your dog to prevent injury, above flat collars and chains that can cause trachea damage and head collars that can cause neck damage. 

I use prongs pretty frequently. I used one on my German Shepherd for about a year while training him to walk nicely on a lead because he could and would pull me down. At 140 lbs vs. 95, you can see the possibilities. BUT, we absolutely graduated from that and the only time he wears one now is while we bike for my safety, just in case he decides he wants to stop to pee or a deer happens to dart out of the woods. The prong is literally just power steering until you can finish training.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Hello shell:

Every one of those terms in your excellent diagram has a technical meaning within learning theory. There is no "value judgment" associated with them, and behavioral scientists use them as 'terms-of-art'. For just one example, to a behaviorist, "_negative_" is not a bad thing, and "_positive_" is not a good thing. 

The problem is that those technical meanings do *NOT* line up with the conventional dictionary meanings nor do they line up with the way the vast majority of people understand those terms. That's why personally I avoid them unless I'm in a seminar given by an academic behaviorist. I generally don't even like to use them when talking to other trainers. YMMV


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Poly said:


> Hello shell:
> 
> Every one of those terms in your excellent diagram has a technical meaning within learning theory. There is no "value judgment" associated with them, and behavioral scientists use them as 'terms-of-art'. For just one example, to a behaviorist, "_negative_" is not a bad thing, and "_positive_" is not a good thing.
> 
> The problem is that those technical meanings do *NOT* line up with the conventional dictionary meanings nor do they line up with the way the vast majority of people understand those terms. That's why personally I avoid them unless I'm in a seminar given by an academic behaviorist. I generally don't even like to use them when talking to other trainers. YMMV


Do you have another chart to illustrate the terms being used with more clarity? I simply tried to find one that give little examples to show that the use of the terms "positive" and "negative" (in relation to prong collars/aversives) was different than the general common definition so help explain why CptJack was saying that prongs weren't "positive" enough though DogLover65 is correct in that they can produce a positive (aka beneficial) outcome. I may be wrong but I saw a language barrier so it can help to clarify that one person is writing in technical terms while the other is reading in regular terms more or less.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

op2:

I wonder if the head collars getting popular in the maratimes have anything to do with a trainer I knew promoting their use out there.

I used a Halti on my dog twice and then never again. He was miserable in one and I didn't like the potential for whiplash (though that probably would have never happened because he was always paying attention in that contraption). There's just better ways to do things nowadays... All you need is a flat collar and some patience. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFgtqgiAKoQ 


Also Foresthund, I think your rottie would love weight pulling sports.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

When seeing a dog with a prong I don't immediately think 'gotta stay away from that dog, it must have issues'. 

However, I do wonder why the owner would choose to use a prong, especially on small dogs. And I'll admit that I can't help the feeling of dislike for the owner. 

I have to say I see very very few people with prongs here though. The one dog I've seen it on was a rather small dog and I had a 'what the f*ck' moment. If little me can hold my 28 inch 75 pound shepherd back with only a simple leather collar-- I'm sure you can hold a cocker-sized dog back without a prong.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Avie said:


> When seeing a dog with a prong I don't immediately think 'gotta stay away from that dog, it must have issues'.
> 
> However, I do wonder why the owner would choose to use a prong, especially on small dogs. And I'll admit that I can't help the feeling of dislike for the owner.
> 
> I have to say I see very very few people with prongs here though. The one dog I've seen it on was a rather small dog and I had a 'what the f*ck' moment. If little me can hold my 28 inch 75 pound shepherd back with only a simple leather collar-- I'm sure you can hold a cocker-sized dog back without a prong.


Eh, this is another of those "you never know" moments... I don't like seeing prongs on anything baby or small (less than 20/15 lbs or so) but I did use a prong on a Boston foster that I had for 8 months. He was about 25 lbs IIRC, and was very reactive and dog aggressive and while I *could* hold him on a flat collar when he went running and lunging, it was not good on his neck whatsoever, so the prong was a safer alternative since he wouldn't hit the end of the lead on it. Harnesses were out because he would spin and squirm and back out of them when he started freaking out.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> Eh, this is another of those "you never know" moments... I don't like seeing prongs on anything baby or small (less than 20/15 lbs or so) but I did use a prong on a Boston foster that I had for 8 months. He was about 25 lbs IIRC, and was very reactive and dog aggressive and while I *could* hold him on a flat collar when he went running and lunging, it was not good on his neck whatsoever, so the prong was a safer alternative since he wouldn't hit the end of the lead on it. Harnesses were out because he would spin and squirm and back out of them when he started freaking out.


Yeah, and Bostons and flat collars/pulling is a really, really bad combination. I'd rather see a prong on a boston than a flat collar any day of the week. They've got enough issues.


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## Kenzie Riann (Mar 25, 2013)

Grayson wears a chain. It's only for fashion. We haven't found a collar yet that doesn't rub off his fur, and he only needs it for his tags. So, I made a collar for him. It's a a Stainless Steel chain, that sits comfortably on him, and is JUST long enough that if another dog were to grab him by the collar, he can get free. And I'm a little more confident that it won't break, considering that I made the chain myself.

It's surprising, though. People automatically assume he's dangerous because 1: he's wearing a chain collar. 2: He's follow by a 6'4" 300+lb black man, and his tiny white wife. People automatically assume that we're trash. It's funny.










And here's an image of it, before it was his collar.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

Neat collar. Reminds me of the chain mail we made in a class when I was a kid. I'll bet you could sell those on esty if you wanted to. It's so shiny and intricate...



Kenzie Riann said:


> People automatically assume he's dangerous because 1: he's wearing a chain collar. 2: He's follow by a 6'4" 300+lb black man, and his tiny white wife. People automatically assume that we're trash. It's funny.


Go go racism / stereotypes. 
People are terrible... their loss.



Poly said:


> The problem is that those technical meanings do *NOT* line up with the conventional dictionary meanings nor do they line up with the way the vast majority of people understand those terms. That's why personally I avoid them unless I'm in a seminar given by an academic behaviorist. I generally don't even like to use them when talking to other trainers. YMMV


This is true and why I tend to stay out of debates on this subject. I can never tell what anyone is actually talking about after a while and then emotions start running high... recipe for a riot.
I would like to see cognitive science as a mandatory high school course. I think people would argue less for so many reasons.


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## Kenzie Riann (Mar 25, 2013)

Indigo said:


> Neat collar. Reminds me of the chain mail we made in a class when I was a kid. I'll bet you could sell those on esty if you wanted to. It's so shiny and intricate...
> 
> Go go racism / stereotypes.
> People are terrible... their loss.


I do, actually! Not currently, because it's a hard hobby to make pay for itself. And yes, I don't know why I'm still surprised to see racism. We just try to ignore it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Indigo said:


> op2:
> 
> I wonder if the head collars getting popular in the maratimes have anything to do with a trainer I knew promoting their use out there.


It really started picking up around 2006-2008. Can you pm me the name of the trainer? I want to look into them.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> A positive outcome is enough for me ✋
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 so using things like an e-collar for your dog is ok as long as you have a positive outcome??? that's pretty selfish!


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

linneke said:


> so using things like an e-collar for your dog is ok as long as you have a positive outcome??? that's pretty selfish!


I dont use electric bark collars. Im not causing my dog pain by using a chain and im not scaring him into walking properly. E-collars are very different (in my mind) from chains. I see nothing wrong with using chains, but i see things wrong with causing your dog pain/or scaring your dog into a positive outcome.


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## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

I like to think of prongs like a double bridle on a dressage horse. Just a light touch is all I need to communicate with my dog, once trained.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> If dog owners would concentrate on training more so than walking, we would see more dogs walking than pulling.
> 
> I feel some owners just are lazy and don't care if their dog does not listen. These same owners comment on how they wish their dog would listen like yours. Yet they will not take the time or give up when the dog starts acting up. How I wish these owners would opt for a stuffed dog than a real dog.


I totally agree whit you. what I hear a lot as an excuse is that the dog is stronger then the owner. well... my dogs are all 3 stronger then me and I walk them together whit a buggy and my 2 young children whitout any problems. no, my dogs aren't perfect... I traint them well. I took all the time my dogs needed and whit a lot of good training we got to were we are today. my APBT jumped up to people on the leach when they gave her just a bit of attention and 1 of my AST's fixated on dogs and rabbits and jumped up when they passed us.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

zeronightfarm said:


> I like to think of prongs like a double bridle on a dressage horse. Just a light touch is all I need to communicate with my dog, once trained.


Nice analogy! That's a big part of why I still occasionally use a prong on Chester. Because I can signal to him with just a tug from one finger if I need to (especially useful when I'm juggling an untrained foster in the other hand). He responds fairly well to voice commands, but those don't work as well when I want the other dog to be doing something totally different.

To continue your analogy, I'd rather see a rider have soft hands using a double bridle with an independent seat than someone using a snaffle bit but hanging on the reins for balance and hauling on them to yank the horse to a stop.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> I dont use electric bark collars. Im not causing my dog pain by using a chain and im not scaring him into walking properly. E-collars are very different (in my mind) from chains. I see nothing wrong with using chains, but i see things wrong with causing your dog pain/or scaring your dog into a positive outcome.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


just because your dog doesn't show it doesn't mean a chain doesn't hurt your dog. If it wouldn't hurt your dog even just once or even a lil bit a chain just wouldn't make any difference and wouldn't stop your dog from pulling.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

zeronightfarm said:


> I like to think of prongs like a double bridle on a dressage horse. Just a light touch is all I need to communicate with my dog, once trained.


It's not really the bridle as it is the bit. I see nothin wrong with double bridles (snaffle and Pelham) but i see EVERYTHING wrong with rollkurs i cant even... Rollkurs make me cringe.

Its not the double bridle itself, its how you use it (different bits) 

Now in dressage the head is straight (perpendicular to the ground) instead of the rollkur forcing the horses head to be parallel to the ground.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

linneke said:


> just because your dog doesn't show it doesn't mean a chain doesn't hurt your dog. If it wouldn't hurt your dog even just once or even a lil bit a chain just wouldn't make any difference and wouldn't stop your dog from pulling.


My dogs dont pull during walks. I dot see the big deal with chains. Dogs still choke themselves in leather collars, because its causing direct pressure on the trachea. 

Think of it this way. Would you rather have a collar around the higher end of your neck my your ears, or lower on ur throat. Try it. Press on your neck under your chin, then press on your neck just above your collar bone and see what one hurts more. Choke chains deliver pressure around the neck, and the normal collars deliver pressure only on the trachea. 

Also, if your smart enough, your not going to put a collar on a dog that constantly pulls. I train off leash (in an enclosed area) with a dog who pulls, im not going to risk putting them on any collar until they can walk comfortably and constantly beside me.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Eh, this is another of those "you never know" moments... I don't like seeing prongs on anything baby or small (less than 20/15 lbs or so) but I did use a prong on a Boston foster that I had for 8 months. He was about 25 lbs IIRC, and was very reactive and dog aggressive and while I *could* hold him on a flat collar when he went running and lunging, it was not good on his neck whatsoever, so the prong was a safer alternative since he wouldn't hit the end of the lead on it. Harnesses were out because he would spin and squirm and back out of them when he started freaking out.


Sure, you don't ever know. But that doesn't change my opinion and I felt bad for that dog when I saw it and I felt a dislike for the owner who saw me stare with distaste. I don't like the use of prongs, especially on small dogs. I stand by that opinion and it's not going to change. 

About the double bridles: nice analogy indeed. I dislike double bridles as well. Like a friend and I used to joke at riding school: it's for wannabe dressage riders that want quick results, fast! Ironically the ones using double bridles were also the ones with the expensive horses who looked down their noses at everyone else, detached from the animals they were riding. A sad sight. 

By the way, I am wondering: why wouldn't a dog hit the end of the leash with a prong?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Avie said:


> By the way, I am wondering: why wouldn't a dog hit the end of the leash with a prong?


Because of the nature of the prong, even if they do hit the end of the leash, there's a different sort of pressure applied, all the way around the neck, and it pinches skin - unlike a regular choke chain, too. 

Bostons have breathing issues and protruding eyes - and a tendency for their *eyeballs to pop out of their sockets* easily. You can NOT let them strain throat first against their collar. It can cause SERIOUS issues. Like life threatening damage. If you can't use a harness because of the dog, you can't use a head collar because of the dog's lack of nose, and you can't use flat/choke/martingale collars because of their throat and head make-up, that leaves you with prong. I use a harness for Bug. If I could not, I would go straight to prong, because it wouldn't seriously damage her if she decided to pull. That can not be said for any of the other options.

That said, they're food motivated and eager to please dogs on a whole. Training loose leash walking shouldn't be hard. It'd STILL, in that case, be my default for the dog to prevent them hurting themselves if, for some insane reason, I couldn't find a harness that worked and was escaped proof. (Though from what I understand, there are several that are pretty good on that front).


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> My dogs dont pull during walks. I dot see the big deal with chains. Dogs still choke themselves in leather collars, because its causing direct pressure on the trachea.
> 
> Think of it this way. Would you rather have a collar around the higher end of your neck my your ears, or lower on ur throat. Try it. Press on your neck under your chin, then press on your neck just above your collar bone and see what one hurts more. Choke chains deliver pressure around the neck, and the normal collars deliver pressure only on the trachea.
> 
> ...


my dogs don't pull either. I only use a nylon Hunter collar on my APBT because she can't wear a harness, my 2 other dogs wear a k9 harness. I don't need to phiscally correct my dogs, I use my voice and that's enough.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Avie said:


> About the double bridles: nice analogy indeed. I dislike double bridles as well. Like a friend and I used to joke at riding school: it's for wannabe dressage riders that want quick results, fast! Ironically the ones using double bridles were also the ones with the expensive horses who looked down their noses at everyone else, detached from the animals they were riding. A sad sight.


That's a problem of the riders, not the tool. There are international competitors (Olympics, World Equestrian Games, etc) that use a double bridle for training specific horses and techniques. You may dislike the bridle and that's fine, but I think it is quite a stretch to say that using a double bridle is for "wannabes" 

Here's the long and short of how I look at prongs:
If my using a prong allows me to safely exercise and train a dog that has spent the last 7 months in a flipping crate and gets that dog to the point that I can switch to a harness and get that dog adopted out to a committed, loving home, then I am 100% fine with using a prong. 

I am NOT going to get my face smashed into the ground, get dragged on the ground, endanger the dog by having her choking on the end of a flat collar, endanger the dog by having her yank the leash from my hands as she powers after some prey and darts into traffic, or endanger the dog by not having instant control over her in public when someone else decides to act the fool. If a prong, which is physically safe when used correctly, lets me save that dog's life by getting them out of a kill-shelter, then I am 100% fine with using a prong. 

Do I encourage people getting new pups or mild mannered dogs to jump right to a prong? Nope. But that doesn't mean they are cruel or some kind of lazy crutch to avoid training (they can be, but that is the user, not the tool).


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Because of the nature of the prong, even if they do hit the end of the leash, there's a different sort of pressure applied, all the way around the neck, and it pinches skin - unlike a regular choke chain, too.
> 
> Bostons have breathing issues and protruding eyes - and a tendency for their *eyeballs to pop out of their sockets* easily. You can NOT let them strain throat first against their collar. It can cause SERIOUS issues. Like life threatening damage. If you can't use a harness because of the dog, you can't use a head collar because of the dog's lack of nose, and you can't use flat/choke/martingale collars because of their throat and head make-up, that leaves you with prong. I use a harness for Bug. If I could not, I would go straight to prong, because it wouldn't seriously damage her if she decided to pull. That can not be said for any of the other options.
> 
> That said, they're food motivated and eager to please dogs on a whole. Training loose leash walking shouldn't be hard. It'd STILL, in that case, be my default for the dog to prevent them hurting themselves if, for some insane reason, I couldn't find a harness that worked and was escaped proof. (Though from what I understand, there are several that are pretty good on that front).


Alright, thanks. I still don't like the use of a prong and I'd absolutely opt for a harness, but I can see why someone would consider a prong in such a case.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> I dont use electric bark collars.


E collars are used for a lot more than barking, which is an entirely different can o' worms. You haven't clearly said, but I hope you haven't gone *there*.



> Im not causing my dog pain by using a chain and im not scaring him into walking properly.


No ? Then perhaps you can tell us, on what principle do they draw their effectiveness from ? 
Should I expect a rebuttal that contains well-worn semantics, such as 'discomfort' or 'interupter' ?




> I train off leash (in an enclosed area) with a dog who pulls, im not going to risk putting them on any collar until they can walk comfortably and constantly beside me.


But, wouldn't that preclude the necessity for any type of training collar, altogether, but especially in the finished product ? Might as well just file 'em under G right from the start, imo.



Let's face it. No matter how things get sliced, in laymen's terms training collars work by punishment or forcing the dog into acceptable behaviour (more specifically choke collars = P+, prong collars if used properly should = R-). And if either P+ or R- , or force, is 'the tool' of convenience some people wish to rely on to train their dogs to walk properly ? well then ....


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## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

My opinion... I dont use harnesses. I start training pups with a flat buckle nylon collar or a nylon martingale collar, then after about 6 months when they are getting bigger they get the choke chain. After hard training for awhile, i'll put a martingale on for a little bit, eventually until they graduate to their nice flat leather collar worn freely in a big yard with no fence. I love leather. I highly suggest flat leather leashes also, not braided ones.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

The only owners who should be skiing behind their dogs are those who are skijoring. I have seen those people ( parking lot skiers) being pulled across the parking lot by their dogs. The free arm is waving for support and their feet going fast to prevent a face plant. What a scary sight to see. I can only imagine what this might look to the small breed dog who is the target for this creation. I am thinking why? I would not put up with this! If it means using a prong collar, than I am going to use a prong collar. Then I think that is the answer! That I would not put up with this kind of behavior and would be working on it before my next vet visit. 

Stop being a parking lot skier!


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

http://dogs-dogs-dogs.tumblr.com/post/40183407449/head-halters-why-i-refuse-to-use-them


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Avie said:


> By the way, I am wondering: why wouldn't a dog hit the end of the leash with a prong?


Some might. Mine didn't because when he was pulling generally he self corrected with the prong on and exhibited some self control because he knew it would hurt to put all of his strength into that. 

Like I said, I would have used a harness, but he could escape everyone I tried and it was simply not safe living in the city. It is sad that you would not use the safest option for a dog just because of your bias towards the tool.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I don't think it's sad I will never use a collar with pins pricking into the dog's neck, DJEtzel. But you're free to your own opinion, as am I.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> E collars are used for a lot more than barking, which is an entirely different can o' worms. You haven't clearly said, but I hope you haven't gone *there*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know, ive seen people use them for bite work or off leash training, but those are "professionals" and know how to properly use them. If you don't know how to use something properly , take a hint and DONT USE IT.

In my opinion, i think you should watch some videos or see someone who uses chains properly before jumping to the conclusion that theyre horrible and painful and all that bs. 

And i strive to be able to trust my dogs off leash, sometimes you have to work backwards to get the right outcome. If you had a dog that pulls constantly why would you put ANY collar on that dog? Choke chain or normal collar, the dog still chokes. 

To me, choke chains are more affective than regular collars. Regular collars do nothing, and neither do harnesses. Personally is only use harnesses on dog with pushed in faces or smaller dogs or if i WANT them to pull. 

Im not punishing my dogs or forcing them into acceptable behaviour. Like i said before, please watch people who use choke chains correctly before pointing a finger at me. Choke chains are used as correction collars and are not a permanent thing.

Everyone has their own opinions, you are against choke chains and i am not. So please refrain yourself from jumping up and down because someone has a different opinion. I dont pull i the collars as hard as i can, i dont hold my dog ff the ground, i dont leave it on my dog, i was taught how to use it from someone who knows what theyre doing.

I think the idiot are the ones who throw chains and prong and e collars on their dog before they know what they are doing.

If you don't agree with choke chains fine. But at least learn about it before criticizing someone else, it happens way to often.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Shell said:


> Do you have another chart to illustrate the terms being used with more clarity? I simply tried to find one that give little examples to show that the use of the terms "positive" and "negative" (in relation to prong collars/aversives) was different than the general common definition so help explain why CptJack was saying that prongs weren't "positive" enough though DogLover65 is correct in that they can produce a positive (aka beneficial) outcome. I may be wrong but I saw a language barrier so it can help to clarify that one person is writing in technical terms while the other is reading in regular terms more or less.


Context is everything. 

Your chart is absolutely correct in the _*proper context*_. 

Most of the time, I think you can assume that people are using a conventional, dictionary meaning, and not the technical terminology. But even in this thread, you can see people using the terms in different ways.

In learning theory/operant conditioning terminology, a prong/pinch collar can be used to produce "positive punishment" or to produce "negative reinforcement". Both are effective if done correctly, and sometimes we use both.

Let me give a specific example. Your dog is forging on the precision heel. You set up with a light lead at the proper length and a pinch collar. You cue and step off. (1)As soon as the dog forges, the arrangement applies pressure with the pinch (positive punishment). (2) When the dog comes back into the correct heel position, the arrangement releases the pressure from the pinch (negative reinforcement). 

In operant conditioning, there is no such thing as "not positive enough". 

You see how the confusion can arise when one mixes the conventional meaning with the operant conditioning meaning.

Here's a very brief introduction to operant conditioning

Introduction to Operant Conditioning


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Avie said:


> I don't think it's sad I will never use a collar with pins pricking into the dog's neck, DJEtzel. But you're free to your own opinion, as am I.


You are, and I'm not going to argue or try to change your mind. I am going to say: 

There are no pins. There is no pricking. 










They work by tightening and 'pinching' the skin between the links. Not poking into it. Still aversive. Still punishment based. 

But there's nothing sharp about them.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Avie said:


> I don't think it's sad I will never use a collar with pins pricking into the dog's neck, DJEtzel. But you're free to your own opinion, as am I.


No, it's sad that you wouldn't choose what is safest for the dog based on misinformation. As Cpt. Jack said, there are absolutely no pins. Nothing goes into them and I have rubber caps on prongs for short haired dogs. They don't pull, it doesn't pinch.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> No, it's sad that you wouldn't choose what is safest for the dog based on misinformation.


No, I would rather make use of any one of the plentiful other options there are when it comes to leashes, collars and training methods that are equally safe for the dog before I would ever--if ever--resort to a prong.
I'm not saying the use of a prong by definition is wrong; I've read about the comparison of a dog being strangled by a choker or pinched by a prong and, though it feels to me like choosing between two evils, I'd say the prong is definitely less harmful. But I am saying I would never use it. (not a choker either, in fact, but I think you'd already have guessed ) 

CptJack, it's good to see the ends of a prong link up close and that they're not sharp. Rubber caps like DJETzel mentioned sound like a good idea though, for even if the metal points aren't sharp, something doesn't have to be sharp to dig into the skin, imo. 

For now, I'd be happy to leave the matter for what it is; I've made my opinion clear. I appreciate you respecting that and I'm going to thank you for the pic (I take it those are yours?) for prongs aren't sold in regular pet stores here and so I've never seen one up close in person. 

And before anyone starts; you don't have to see something up close in person to form an opinion.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The pics aren't mine, I just grabbed them from a google search; I am currently without a camera. 

Rubber caps are good things, especially with short haired dogs. They're not overly necessary in a dog with any point, because they also lie at an angle when they're around the dog's neck - not straight down. There's a limit to how far they can tighten, so there's not much way to scratch or rub at a dog with any real coat (or double coat) in a properly fitted prong. They're made to catch and release and overall are about a thousand times safer than a choke-chain/metal slip collar. I don't LOVE using a prong and I'm totally cool with someone choosing not to use any correction collar at all, but choke-chains are just freaking dangerous for a lot of dogs, because they DO tighten indefinitely.

And again: I totally respect your opinion, I'm just providing information and answering questions, here.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I know, I've noticed since you came on these forums that you're really respectful and I appreciate your posts.  They are informative without being accusatory.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> If you don't agree with choke chains fine. But at least learn about it before criticizing someone else, it happens way to often.


ummm, yeah ... friendly little FYI. I trained many dogs exclusively with choke chains -- all to a very high level of obedience -- for more than two decades BEFORE "crossing over" in the year 2000.

Soooooo ... I guess I'll just .... :yawn: take a pass on watching any instructional videos, thank you.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Avie said:


> No, I would rather make use of any one of the plentiful other options there are when it comes to leashes, collars and training methods that are equally safe for the dog before I would ever--if ever--resort to a prong.
> I'm not saying the use of a prong by definition is wrong; I've read about the comparison of a dog being strangled by a choker or pinched by a prong and, though it feels to me like choosing between two evils, I'd say the prong is definitely less harmful. But I am saying I would never use it. (not a choker either, in fact, but I think you'd already have guessed )
> 
> CptJack, it's good to see the ends of a prong link up close and that they're not sharp. Rubber caps like DJETzel mentioned sound like a good idea though, for even if the metal points aren't sharp, something doesn't have to be sharp to dig into the skin, imo.
> ...


I'm curious what methods you think would have been equally safe in this situation?


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> ummm, yeah ... friendly little FYI. I trained many dogs exclusively with choke chains -- all to a very high level of obedience -- for more than two decades BEFORE "crossing over" in the year 2000.
> 
> Soooooo ... I guess I'll just .... :yawn: take a pass on watching any instructional videos, thank you.


Im suprised, i thought someone with such experience would know more about what theyre talking about. Guess you proved me wrong. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Dyno walks really well on a leash, d if he were to try to go after anything ever, i could be sure it wouldn't break, but so far, no DA we don't like cats or other animals much but we can walk past them nicely


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> Im suprised, i thought someone with such experience would know more about what theyre talking about. Guess you proved me wrong.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


there is no need to be rude, everyone has their opinion.

that been said, why use this








instead of these


















or this









why use a metal choke chain instead of leather or nylon or why not use a halfcheck?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> Im suprised, i thought someone with such experience would know more about what theyre talking about. Guess you proved me wrong.


^ This comment doesn't make sense, but it doesn't surprise me.

Listen... if you're looking for a childish internet argument, which does seem quite apparent, at least prepare your statements sufficiently so that you don't appear foolish. My goodness :doh:, grow up.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

linneke said:


> there is no need to be rude, everyone has their opinion.
> 
> that been said, why use this
> 
> ...


Dogs can and usually do develop an aversion to the mere _sound_ of metal links sliding across the dead ring. They know the big whack is coming a fraction of a second before it actually gets there. Heightens the fear factor.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

If choke chains don't cause some kind of unpleasantness... How do they work?  A chain by its definition is an aversive tool. But so is the martingale I use. And so are the head collars I use. 

I accept that I use a teensy bit if aversive a in my dog training. Just how it is. Makes it a safe and enjoyable walk for everyone. There are a million available tools and not all of them work for all dogs. I'd rather see a dog walking on a prong or choke than not getting walked at all. 

For a lot of owners, bad at walking = no more walking for Fido.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

RabbleFox said:


> I'd rather see a dog walking on a prong or choke than not getting walked at all.
> 
> For a lot of owners, bad at walking = no more walking for Fido.


This type of rationalization really gets me. Dogs don't 'need' to walk, perfectly, on a loose leash, right beside their human. In fact it's a very unnatural behavior. 

And if that's the case I'd rather see a dog who gets physical exercise and mental stimulation in other ways, in lieu of punishment for just being a dog.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> This type of rationalization really gets me. Dogs don't 'need' to walk, perfectly, on a loose leash, right beside their human. In fact it's a very unnatural behavior.
> 
> And if that's the case I'd rather see a dog who gets physical exercise and mental stimulation in other ways, in lieu of punishment for just being a dog.


I'm not sure you've ever tried to walk my aunt's dog. He doesn't get a walk at all. They would be happy if he would like pull less. As it is, you get a mouthful of asphalt. Every time. Everywhere. 

He either gets walked or let out in the yard. Right now, he just gets let out in the yard. :/ Nothing is not better than walk with a prong.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> This type of rationalization really gets me. Dogs don't 'need' to walk, perfectly, on a loose leash, right beside their human. In fact it's a very unnatural behavior.
> 
> And if that's the case I'd rather see a dog who gets physical exercise and mental stimulation in other ways, in lieu of punishment for just being a dog.


Except that many people can't give enough exercise in other ways if they cannot walk the dog. I know in the winter when there is too much ice to walk safely for a few days that I have to spend a lot of time doing other activities with the dogs since they aren't getting the mental activity of a walk and a lot of people aren't going to or cannot devote that kind of time day in and day out. No, they don't need to walk perfectly on a loose leash next to their human but they DO need to be able to walk without pulling the human down to the ground or yanking the leash out of their hands etc. 

I think that a few seconds of minor pain a handful of times on a long walk is a reasonable trade-off for someone to make in exchange for the mental and physical exercise and enjoyment a dog gets out of a walk. Far better than going stir crazy in a yard and destroying a house until finally the humans get fed up with the dog's wild behavior and dump them at a shelter. Where the dog, being untrained and full of pent-up energy, is a poor adoption prospect and tends to wind up DEAD.

I cannot ask the dogs, but I'm willing to bet that every single one of them would rather have walks on a prong collar than being dead. I'm not exaggerating the consequences, I have seen that very sequence happen. Dog lunges and pulls and is a holy terror to walk safely, dog gets shunted to the back yard and they toss a ball sometimes, tossing a ball isn't enough so dog starts to act out so dog ends up at shelter or "free to good home" on craigslist and that doesn't often end well either.

Like CptJack said earlier in the thread, I am not in love with prong collars and generally prefer other options IF those options work in a safe manner for a given dog. But prongs serve a purpose and they can be much safer than the head collars that some people seem to think are so much "gentler" than a prong.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> This type of rationalization really gets me. Dogs don't 'need' to walk, perfectly, on a loose leash, right beside their human. In fact it's a very unnatural behavior.
> 
> And if that's the case I'd rather see a dog who gets physical exercise and mental stimulation in other ways, in lieu of punishment for just being a dog.


No, but the dog does need to walk in a manner that does not result in the human being flat on their face, on the ground or yanked off their feet. That's the issue I've yet to see you address here. I don't pretend they aren't aversive, but I specifically went out of my way to present you with a scenario that you... ignored. 

Dog pulls in short, strong, extremely abrupt lunges. Dog is 100+lbs, 27" high at the withers, has insane prey drive but only for wildlife which is unpredictable and hard to counter condition. Dog can, and has, successfully yanked me off my feet and flat onto my face. He can physically move me forward, and self-reward, on a flat collar. No pull harnesses work not at all. Head collars are not safe because of the lunging behavior and his reaction to them. _What is the alternative_, that does not risk injury for me or the dog, while more training is in progress? 

As for exercise other ways: Sorry. Dog needs to be able to be on a leash sometimes. He has to, at bear minimum, be able to go to the vet occasionally and be on a leash without killing me or anything/one else in the waiting room because there's an office cat. I need to get him from the parking lot to the office and back to my house again without dying because of stairs and squirrels or ice, too. Most of his exercise isn't happening ON leash, but we still have to get to places where it's safe and THAT requires being able to be on leash too; my yard is fenced, but tiny, and even if it wasn't - dog can not live at home all the time, vet visits and getting to other locations is a thing.

As much as I don't love them -and I don't- and have yet to deny they're aversive for the dog. No pull harnesses are aversive for the dogs, too though possibly less so. Prongs are safer than choke chains and frankly safer than head collars, too. Even if the dog has the face necessary to use one. No pull harnesses are also aversive, though more mildly so, and those are suggested all over the place. The thing you seem to be missing here is that we're not talking 'pulls at the leash sometimes'. We're talking dogs who present physical danger to themselves and-or their owners when lunging or pulling or acting like a fish out of water. No one's denying that they're aversive, but until someone offers me a suggestion that keeps my teeth in my mouth while I train with this particular issue, it's the best option of the lot. 

Always? No.
For basic leash pulling? No.
Sometimes? Apparently so. If you have other suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.
I mean, besides 'never walk the dog and let it rot at home and hope for the best when you have to leave the house'.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> there is no need to be rude, everyone has their opinion.
> 
> that been said, why use this


You couldn't pay me to use a choke chain. Those suckers are just plain dangerous. I will PROBABLY transition thud to a martingale on my way back to a flat collar, but any kind of slip collar strikes me as more dangerous than a prong int he hands of most people, particularly with some brachy breeds, where that kind of throat pressure is outright dangerous. The reason I use a prong is that it doesn't apply PRESSURE across the throat. It pinches. Which hurts! Not gonna deny it. But applies the pressure and aversive in a way that's not going to damage the dog's throat.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm curious what methods you think would have been equally safe in this situation?


I'd resort to a harness. There's a plethora of harnesses out there. That dog has to be a magician extraordinaire to be able to escape from every. single. one. that is on the market. 
I'd probably opt for a ruffwear harness, according to an acquaintance of mine with a canine escape artist herself it's specially made for houdinis, lol  Safe as can be. Another boston owner confirms her dog can't escape from it, so that's at least one type of harness that would have worked for the boston. 
Which doesn't get rid of the pulling, but that's what training is for. 

Now, I'm not eager or willing to get into an argument of 'you are wrong', I just said it wasn't what I would do and since you asked, this is my answer.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Avie said:


> I'd resort to a harness. There's a plethora of harnesses out there. That dog has to be a magician extraordinaire to be able to escape from every. single. one. that is on the market.
> I'd probably opt for a ruffwear harness, according to an acquaintance of mine with a canine escape artist herself it's specially made for houdinis, lol  Safe as can be. Another boston owner confirms her dog can't escape from it, so that's at least one type of harness that would have worked for the boston.
> Which doesn't get rid of the pulling, but that's what training is for.
> 
> Now, I'm not eager or willing to get into an argument of 'you are wrong', I just said it wasn't what I would do and since you asked, this is my answer.


Not really directed at me but I'd like to chime in.
Many larger dogs can pull even when wearing a no pull harness, trust me I had to wash asphalt out of my arm because I was stubborn enough to not realize that it wasn't working.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Flaming said:


> Not really directed at me but I'd like to chime in.
> Many larger dogs can pull even when wearing a no pull harness, trust me I had to wash asphalt out of my arm because I was stubborn enough to not realize that it wasn't working.


It was in response to a specific situation DJEtzel mentioned before, with a boston terrier. I don't know what I would do with a giant dog that pulled like crazy. I've been there once (with a Spanish mastiff who'd been on a chain for its entire life and had never walked on a leash before--but no one mentioned it to me, oops :help and I had cuts in my fingers from the nylon leash. Ouch.









(the dog in question, a sweetheart but huge and strong like a tank, ironically named Asterix. His little min pin companion was named Obelix. I think someone made a mistake when they were named, haha)


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## TXTorres (Mar 31, 2013)

I can see why people are saying it says more about the owner than about the dogs. I never automatically assume anything about a dog based on their collar. I have no idea on their back story. 

I use choke chains on all of my dogs. I am not ignorant about other kinds of collars or how to properly use a choke chain. I had a collar break on me once and the cheapest thing to get quickly was a choke chain (we were out of town), so I got a couple for the girls and that's what they have been wearing for about 3 years. Guess I don't think about it too much. We don't take a lot of walks though (we live out in the country, so it's mostly exploring, fetching, swimming, etc.). When we do actually go on walks, they do not pull much at all. 

I am actually getting into leather working to make some nice dog collars, so they will be fancy soon enough


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I do admit I have prong collars in my tool box. As I become more and more experienced as a handler, I need them for less duration with each dog. My first rottie before I got into dog sports wore one for several years. He weighed 130 pounds and was 29" at the withers...and I weighed about 125. He had prey drive and I took some good diggers on the pavement/grass/concrete when he would take off after some running small animal. What got me off of using it with him was I started to show him in obedience. You cannot use prong collars on any show grounds of any venue. 

Lars wore it for about 8 months when he was younger and showing was the main reason I stopped using it. He was weaned off of it by 15 months. Ocean has worn one...but only for a couple of months because he has been coming to agility trials ever since he was small. He's worn it the least and walks the best on a loose leash through crowded environments than any of my dogs. I think it's because I'm more experienced now as a trainer. 

There is an instance where they do wear pinch collars still - when I take them for walks together. Together, they weigh 165 pounds and I weigh 148. They have almost 20 pounds on me and they know how to use their power and their weight against me. The pinches act as an emergency brake if I need it...and so far, I have not. I don't walk them together often by myself since Mr. Boats has been working for himself and there's been no ice/snow. When we walk them...I take one and he takes the other and we walk with no prongs. For me, it's a safety thing now...because if they ever decided they wanted to take off and go after something, I would be dragged behind them like I was tied to a truck. I would get seriously hurt.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Dogs can and usually do develop an aversion to the mere _sound_ of metal links sliding across the dead ring. They know the big whack is coming a fraction of a second before it actually gets there. Heightens the fear factor.


thanx for your answer, I never thought of it that way. yet another reason why I would never use it unless I absolutely have to and ran all out of other options.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> You couldn't pay me to use a choke chain. Those suckers are just plain dangerous. I will PROBABLY transition thud to a martingale on my way back to a flat collar, but any kind of slip collar strikes me as more dangerous than a prong int he hands of most people, particularly with some brachy breeds, where that kind of throat pressure is outright dangerous. The reason I use a prong is that it doesn't apply PRESSURE across the throat. It pinches. Which hurts! Not gonna deny it. But applies the pressure and aversive in a way that's not going to damage the dog's throat.


though I respect your opinion and the way you see things, I will never agree on using either a choke chain or a prong. 
I do want to thank you for your verry informative answers in this thread. I didn't realy know annything about prongs and I've realy learnt alot from your answers. I will look at the prong in a still bad but different kind of bad way now.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> though I respect your opinion and the way you see things, I will never agree on using either a choke chain or a prong.
> I do want to thank you for your verry informative answers in this thread. I didn't realy know annything about prongs and I've realy learnt alot from your answers. I will look at the prong in a still bad but different kind of bad way now.


In order to properly dislike a method or tool you must actually learn how it's used. 

Prongs aren't terrible in it of themselves. Not my first choice but also not my last. When used properly, the prong does the work for you (you don't "pop" it) and is then phased out. Like a head collar or easy walk harness would be phased out. I've seen a lot of people use a prong improperly and that makes me sad. Who uses a flexible lead and a prong collar at the same time?! When Ive seen a prong used properly, it phases out really easily. 

Another tool for the tool box.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I once put the prong on my thigh...yeah, my dog's necks are the size of my thigh. I had shorts on at the time...so this was on skin, not demin. I gave myself a good "correction" with it...it's enough to get a dog's attention when you need it but I definitely wasn't writhing around in pain. And I gave myself a strong, two handed on my leash yank...something hard enough that would freak out a softer trainer if they saw that sort of correction on a dog. I know what it feels like and I didn't have holes in my leg afterwards. So, that's why I have no problem having one in my tool box if the situation presents itself. For the record...I use a 1/2" wide micro-prong on my large dogs. I don't use those huge honkin' 1" or more wide prong collars. I have yet to have my micro-prongs pop open on me in over 12 years that I have been using them. 

I recommend people do the same if they question the prong collar. Strap one on and give yourself a good correction. I think one would be surprised how they really do feel.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> In order to properly dislike a method or tool you must actually learn how it's used.
> 
> Prongs aren't terrible in it of themselves. Not my first choice but also not my last. When used properly, the prong does the work for you (you don't "pop" it) and is then phased out. Like a head collar or easy walk harness would be phased out. I've seen a lot of people use a prong improperly and that makes me sad. Who uses a flexible lead and a prong collar at the same time?! When Ive seen a prong used properly, it phases out really easily.
> 
> Another tool for the tool box.


I'm 100% for positive training, prongs and choke chains or other tools don't fit in my way of training. yes, I did 'use' a gentle leader for a little while but that was only for the safety of my unborn baby and I took my time to introduce the gl properly so that they didn't even pull 1ce on leash. it just made them calmer and that's exactely what I needed during my pregnancy. it's the only time I opted for a fast solution because I didn't wanna take the risk and still wanted to walk my dogs.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> I'm 100% for positive training, prongs and choke chains or other tools don't fit in my way of training. yes, I did 'use' a gentle leader for a little while but that was only for the safety of my unborn baby and I took my time to introduce the gl properly so that they didn't even pull 1ce on leash. it just made them calmer and that's exactely what I needed during my pregnancy. it's the only time I opted for a fast solution because I didn't wanna take the risk and still wanted to walk my dogs.


Isn't that how the prong users here are using their tools? Thud could pull Cpt. Jack onto her face in three seconds flat. Mrs. Boats sometimes has to walk her two Rotts by her lonesome. Both of them use the prongs as a safety measure.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> I'm 100% for positive training, prongs and choke chains or other tools don't fit in my way of training. yes, I did 'use' a gentle leader for a little while but that was only for the safety of my unborn baby and I took my time to introduce the gl properly so that they didn't even pull 1ce on leash. it just made them calmer and that's exactely what I needed during my pregnancy. it's the only time I opted for a fast solution because I didn't wanna take the risk and still wanted to walk my dogs.


This is the thing, I say very gently. 

The head-collar (like a GL) would be dangerous for the way my dog pulls -for him-. He's a large dog. The head-harnesses have high risk of whiplash type injuries. Thud, in particular, doesn't pull steadily but leaps and lunges abruptly. That tool is not the right one for him. 

But the only reason I'm using a prong is for my, and my dog's safety. I'm not pregnant, but I also weigh 140-lbs. Thud weighs < 100 (though not much) and on his hind legs is something like my height. He's a ten month old puppy. We're training to work on impulse control, but in the meanwhile I need to not be hurt and he needs exercise. 

And I OFTEN walk him with other dogs (though also other people). I'm not factoring that in, though, because the others don't have any bad leash habits. 

It's. You don't need to use a prong if you don't want, but that head collar is as aversive as a prong (works by causing discomfort when pulling), in grains habits in the meanwhile, and has associated physical risks. It's... not actually different.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Isn't that how the prong users here are using their tools? Thud could pull Cpt. Jack onto her face in three seconds flat. Mrs. Boats sometimes has to walk her two Rotts by her lonesome. Both of them use the prongs as a safety measure.


if I wasn't pregnant I wouldn't have used the gl even if it would mean that I would fall flat on my face. I just felt i was losing some of my strength and my balance wasn't what it was before, I was physally getting weaker and weaker and I didn't want to take the risk of falling on my pregnant belly.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

MrsBoats said:


> I once put the prong on my thigh...yeah, my dog's necks are the size of my thigh. I had shorts on at the time...so this was on skin, not demin. I gave myself a good "correction" with it...it's enough to get a dog's attention when you need it but I definitely wasn't writhing around in pain.


I did the exact same thing before I ever put a prong on a dog.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> if I wasn't pregnant I wouldn't have used the gl even if it would mean that I would fall flat on my face. I just felt i was losing some of my strength and my balance wasn't what it was before, I was physally getting weaker and weaker and I didn't want to take the risk of falling on my pregnant belly.


Pregnant or not, if you are on your face, you aren't in full control of your dog. If you aren't in full control of your dog, you are creating a dangerous for you, your dog, and other people and dogs. 

Prong > dangerous dog situation.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I use a fursaver collar with Sam now and may use a prong in the future. He outgrew the effectiveness of a no-pull harness very quickly and we're still working on training impulse control. He reacted far more negatively to my attempts at a head collar than the fursaver, completely freaking out to the point I was afraid for his safety.

Whenever I pull out his fursaver (similar to a choke chain), he excited knowing we are going out someplace fun. It allows me to keep control of a dog quickly approaching my own size with fewer leash corrections for him and no pain in my wrists and shoulders. It allows both of us to enjoy our walks together as well as go places where I need to keep control of my dog.

Did I try other options first? Of course. However, I had to keep an open mind to find what worked best for us. I find it rather close minded and insulting that you would judge other dog owners based in the collar they use without considering their reasons for doing so.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> Pregnant or not, if you are on your face, you aren't in full control of your dog. If you aren't in full control of your dog, you are creating a dangerous for you, your dog, and other people and dogs.
> 
> Prong > dangerous dog situation.


I was once walking my dog and a foster dog. It was raining. Across the street, a woman stepped out of her house with her two large dogs (maybe 55-65 lbs) on leashes and flat collars. The dogs saw me and my dogs and BOLTED for us. Full bore. She landed on her face and both leashes were yanked from her hands. The dogs came at us and in the 20-30 seconds it took her to stand up and run to help, I had to deal with FOUR large dogs fighting. Two aggressors and two defenders since even my mild mannered hound is defensive when attacked. We managed to get them apart safely because the aggressors weren't totally game for the fight and luckily I was able to get my foster under control early on. 

Could a prong collar have prevented this? Maybe, maybe not. My point is that anytime anyone (male, female, big or small) is flat face on the ground, they are unlikely to have safe control over their dogs. In an urban environment especially, with many other dogs and people, safety is of utmost importance. That incident could easily have ended in the death of one or more dogs and in serious injury to me or her. She said they had never bolted before but that she skipped using their prong collars for a quick potty break. One of her's was newly adopted so even if she was diligently training on a flat collar, she wouldn't have had the time to complete such training.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> if I wasn't pregnant I wouldn't have used the gl even if it would mean that I would fall flat on my face. I just felt i was losing some of my strength and my balance wasn't what it was before, I was physally getting weaker and weaker and I didn't want to take the risk of falling on my pregnant belly.


My dog weighs about 30lbs less than I do. Pregnant or not, if I am on my face (or unconscious), my dog is then not under my control and capable of getting into anything he wants. So even if you discount MY safety, my DOG is not safe, if I am lying on the ground with a concussion and choking on blood from having my teeth knocked out. Or with a broken leg. Or dislocated shoulder. Or any number of other things that happen when you get yanked face first into the ground at great strength and speed. My particular dog USUALLY stops when there is no pressure on his leash so he MIGHT stop to look at me under normal circumstances. At the end of that lunge, without it's more likely that he would continue to bolt -across a road after a squirrel and get killed, or cause a driver to be killed. 

There is ZERO excuse for not being in control of your dog, and while I've tried really hard to be nothing but respectful of your opinion "I would rather someone eat asphalt than use a prong" is just... really sad, and short sighted.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Pregnant or not, if you are on your face, you aren't in full control of your dog. If you aren't in full control of your dog, you are creating a dangerous for you, your dog, and other people and dogs.
> 
> Prong > dangerous dog situation.


It's jus an expression. I've walked/trained many dogs that are much stronger then me and did have bigger problems but I've never fallen flat. that's cause I observe the dog first and read their body language before I start. by the first sign the dog gives me (even the smallest sing will do), I'm right on it... that's the way I train dogs and up until now it always worked.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Oh, I do want to add something though that might help bridge the gap in this discussion for Linneke---

Is it possible that your location and dog culture are sufficiently different than many parts of the United States that it could be making a big difference in your opinions and impressions of prong and chain collars?

Here for example, I have to often deal with loose or stray dogs, children and adults that run up to the dogs and do wild things (I've had groups of kids start barking at the dogs....), the shelters are overfull with dogs that have never had any training and are just loving and happy bundles of crazy energy that explode with action when taken out on a leash, and yards often have aggressive dogs in them that are hard to safely walk past with even a mildly reactive dog.
For someone starting out with a puppy, they have many more options than someone jumping into adopting a full grown and untrained powerful dog. For someone in a quiet neighborhood, they'd have more options. Etc.

But it is what it is here and I've gone to great lengths to find safe walking places for reactive dogs and such to actually be able to train on a plain harness rather than a prong, but not everyone has the time or the transportation to do so.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> It's jus an expression. I've walked/trained many dogs that are much stronger then me and did have bigger problems but I've never fallen flat. that's cause I observe the dog first and read their body language before I start. by the first sign the dog gives me (even the smallest sing will do), I'm right on it... that's the way I train dogs and up until now it always worked.


For some people, it isn't just an expression. I've been pulled over onto my face and belly by my aunt's dog. He is ultra reactive. A crack in the side walk = pull. A leaf falling= lunge. Another dog = bark bark bark. I can't cope with everything being a distraction. Pull out the tool (head collar for him too). I can control him and avert disaster. Otherwise it's constant pulling in a million different directions all at the same time. 

There is no warning because its a consistent pull here, pull there type deal. 

Please come train him for me. XD


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> It's jus an expression. I've walked/trained many dogs that are much stronger then me and did have bigger problems but I've never fallen flat. that's cause I observe the dog first and read their body language before I start. by the first sign the dog gives me (even the smallest sing will do), I'm right on it... that's the way I train dogs and up until now it always worked.


Okay, then. YOU provide me an alternative. 

I have a 100+ lb dog, who walks nicely on loose leash. He's even got a pretty good heel. He doesn't pull steadily, but he is very high drive, including prey-drive. So when something like a squirrel or rabbit appeals, his IMMEDIATE response is to lunge abruptly forward. He doesn't freeze, stalk, or bark. He doesn't stare. He immediately sees prey and bolts/pounces forward with great strength and energy. It isn't something that appears frequently (dogs don't do it) or something I can control. Nor is it something I can see in advance very often, for desensitization. 

What's the right response? Without a training collar, obviously.

And no, for me it isn't an expression Rabblefox. I literally got yanked down, face first, into asphalt. At that point, I got over MY aversion to correction collars.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> Oh, I do want to add something though that might help bridge the gap in this discussion for Linneke---
> 
> Is it possible that your location and dog culture are sufficiently different than many parts of the United States that it could be making a big difference in your opinions and impressions of prong and chain collars?
> 
> ...



This seems possible, but I have no idea where I'd go to avoid butterflies, the occasional larger bird, squirrels, rabbits and stray cats.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> This seems possible, but I have no idea where I'd go to avoid butterflies, the occasional larger bird, squirrels, rabbits and stray cats.


Inside. Thud should be inside always and foreverrrrr. 

^What happens when dogs pull you onto your face in my area. House/yard dog for life.^


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Inside. Thud should be inside always and foreverrrrr.
> 
> ^What happens when dogs pull you onto your face in my area. House/yard dog for life.^


Pffft. I like my house almost as much as my face. I wouldn't have one of those if I couldn't get him out hiking, running and swimming. He's a good dog, but he's um. Enthusiastic.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> This is the thing, I say very gently.
> 
> The head-collar (like a GL) would be dangerous for the way my dog pulls -for him-. He's a large dog. The head-harnesses have high risk of whiplash type injuries. Thud, in particular, doesn't pull steadily but leaps and lunges abruptly. That tool is not the right one for him.
> 
> ...


I already said it before... I'm not a fan of those eather.I only used it on my dogs because I knew having somthing on their nose would calm them down and before I used it outside I did let my dogs get used to the gl inside. They never pulled even once whit the gl on because they were already used to it before I used it during walks and I did biuld up the walks as well. I didn't immediately do long walks whit the gl.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> I already said it before... I'm not a fan of those eather.I only used it on my dogs because I knew having somthing on their nose would calm them down and before I used it outside I did let my dogs get used to the gl inside. They never pulled even once whit the gl on because they were already used to it before I used it during walks and I did biuld up the walks as well. I didn't immediately do long walks whit the gl.


That doesn't make it safe, not effective because it makes it uncomfortable for the dog to pull, and the method amd acclimation is the same as the prong, so....


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> That doesn't make it safe, not effective because it makes it uncomfortable for the dog to pull, and the method amd acclimation is the same as the prong, so....


I use Kiko Pup's muzzle training as a basis for my head collar training. Just as a dog can be taught to wear a head collar or muzzle comfortably, he can be taught to wear a prong. 

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KJTucFnmAbw&desktop_uri=/watch?v=KJTucFnmAbw

The dogs I've used head collars with have calmed considerably whilst using the head collar. I also understand that it doesn't work for all dogs (thus the fish on a line mental image).


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Shell said:


> Oh, I do want to add something though that might help bridge the gap in this discussion for Linneke---
> 
> Is it possible that your location and dog culture are sufficiently different than many parts of the United States that it could be making a big difference in your opinions and impressions of prong and chain collars?
> 
> ...


appart from the stray dogs I do have to deal whit the same problems. I live right outside of the city (don't know if you ever heard of Tomorrwland?) during winters it's pretty calm in some places but the rest of the year there are dogs, children, cats, trucks, bikes, cyclists, wildlife,... everywhere.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

This is usually where we end up in discussions like this. Those of us who do use aversives in certai situations will bring up an example of such a situation where we felt the aversive was the only option. The "only positive only ever" crowd will simply avoid giving any alternative besides maybe avoiding the situation to begin with.

Which is why I think most people actually end up with more of a "balanced training" approach in reality with positive only remaining more of an ideal, particularly when dealing with larger or higher drive dogs. I try to erronthe side of positive methods wherever Ican and minimize the use of aversives, but when it comes to issues of safety, which having control of a dog on leash IS a safety issue, I will do what I feel is necessary to keep my dog safe in the short term even as I work on longer term solutions.

If my choice of collar repells nitwits who can't respect that, I rather see it as a bonus.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

linneke said:


> appart from the stray dogs I do have to deal whit the same problems. I live right outside of the city (don't know if you ever heard of Tomorrwland?) during winters it's pretty calm in some places but the rest of the year there are dogs, children, cats, trucks, bikes, cyclists, wildlife,... everywhere.


I know of the general area, my mother lived in Antwerp back in the 70s. 

I just made the comparison because I find, for example, when I walk the dogs in a neighborhood in a part of my city that is very well-off financially and tends to have securely fenced yards, indoor dogs, children are with their parents when outside and more responsible pet owners in terms of not letting dogs run loose or be kept as untrained guard dogs (note that I am NOT saying that you have to have money to be a good owner!) that it is far easier to deal with a slightly crazy dog on a plain harness.

But when I walk in a neighborhood near me that tends to have more stray and loose dogs, far more unsupervised children, far more food trash on the street, and far more guard dogs in the barely fenced yards, I find that I need more control for safety. The dogs I walk are often new to me with completely unknown backgrounds. So erring on the side of caution is just plain good sense. 

I probably use a prong collar less than 10% of the time but it has saved my butt and my dogs butts before so there's a reason it is part of my huge collection of leashes, collars and harnesses.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Okay, then. YOU provide me an alternative.
> 
> I have a 100+ lb dog, who walks nicely on loose leash. He's even got a pretty good heel. He doesn't pull steadily, but he is very high drive, including prey-drive. So when something like a squirrel or rabbit appeals, his IMMEDIATE response is to lunge abruptly forward. He doesn't freeze, stalk, or bark. He doesn't stare. He immediately sees prey and bolts/pounces forward with great strength and energy. It isn't something that appears frequently (dogs don't do it) or something I can control. Nor is it something I can see in advance very often, for desensitization.
> 
> ...


I had the same thing whit one of my dogs. the second I saw a rabbit I asked for her attention (at first whit a treat), while asking for her attention I positioned myself inbetween her and the rabbit (so I can block her) then I asked her 2 sit and was she was calm she did get the treat and we could continue are walk. once that worked good I asked for her attention and asked her to sit whitout blocking her, next step I only asked for her attention. after that I dropped the treat and only rewarded her whit my voice. now she still looks at rabbits but then she looks immediately looks at me, I tell her 2 follow and she lissents perfectly.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I always find the "I put the collar on my leg" thing funny. My leg can handle a lot more pressure, however short, than my neck. This is not a whether or not it hurts argument from me, since I'm not a dog, but it always grabs me right when people say that. 

I don't think I'd ever complain that much about prongs if I for once just saw a dog with a properly fitted one. I've since tossed Sham's, but a couple summers ago we went to a dog event and he was on his prong, fitted correctly, and at least four people I can remember questioned it. Thankfully he has balls and that's much more distracting to most.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> I had the same thing whit one of my dogs. the second I saw a rabbit I asked for her attention (at first whit a treat), while asking for her attention I positioned myself inbetween her and the rabbit (so I can block her) then I asked her 2 sit and was she was calm she did get the treat and we could continue are walk. once that worked good I asked for her attention and asked her to sit whitout blocking her, next step I only asked for her attention. after that I dropped the treat and only rewarded her whit my voice. now she still looks at rabbits but then she looks immediately looks at me, I tell her 2 follow and she lissents perfectly.


This requires you to see the rabbit first and to somehow be maintaining control before the dog sees or senses the rabbit. That doesn't always happen. Bae alerts to squirrels before I see them all the time.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> I had the same thing whit one of my dogs. the second I saw a rabbit I asked for her attention (at first whit a treat), while asking for her attention I positioned myself inbetween her and the rabbit (so I can block her) then I asked her 2 sit and was she was calm she did get the treat and we could continue are walk. once that worked good I asked for her attention and asked her to sit whitout blocking her, next step I only asked for her attention. after that I dropped the treat and only rewarded her whit my voice. now she still looks at rabbits but then she looks immediately looks at me, I tell her 2 follow and she lissents perfectly.


How are you spotting rabbits before them, consistently? Where in the world is that possible, on a regular basis? I'm not being snarky, but here they pop out of the ground and bolt. Not... Sit at a distance. Never mind butterflies, and squirrels. They aren't...something I see coming, what with the trees, meadows and, most importantly the fact that the prey animals I mentioned live in trees and underground. I do do those things on the rare occasion that I notice them first, but thatd damn rare. Certainly not enough for consistency.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> How are you spotting rabbits before them, consistently? Where in the world is that possible, on a regular basis? I'm not being snarky, but here they pop out of the ground and bolt. Not... Sit at a distance. Never mind butterflies, and squirrels. They aren't...something I see coming, what with the trees, meadows and, most importantly the fact that the prey animals I mentioned live in trees and underground. I do do those things on the rare occasion that I notice them first, but thatd damn rare. Certainly not enough for consistency.


I always walked her on a 4 feet leash so she was always close to me. when she did spot the rabbit before me I immediately put my right foot as close to her as posible (what made her look at my foot) and turn in front of her (left foot if your dog walks on your left) then ask her attention and ask her to sit. when turning I did grab the leash shorter.
i have to admit that you have to watch your dog real close (even the movement of the ears can tell you your dog spotted somthing) and it takes patience and time but for me and my dog it did work.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

oh and where I live it's like 1 big rabbit hole. you can easily stand still, turn 360° around and count up to 40 rabbits (not even counting the rabbits you don't see) at once.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> ^ This comment doesn't make sense, but it doesn't surprise me.
> 
> Listen... if you're looking for a childish internet argument, which does seem quite apparent, at least prepare your statements sufficiently so that you don't appear foolish. My goodness :doh:, grow up.


And I'm the childish one ...


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

linneke said:


> there is no need to be rude, everyone has their opinion.
> 
> that been said, why use this
> 
> ...


Others have been nothing but rude, so i find it unfair to bring up mine.

Also, i would consider using those. Just never saw them. 


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Question: what's better about a slip lead or leather choke collar? You'd use them the same way you'd use a choke chain, it's just a different material. At least... I'd imagine you'd use them the same way. I'm not sure the material makes it more humane or gentle. The martingale still has a chain component that can be popped if needed too.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

linneke said:


> oh and where I live it's like 1 big rabbit hole. you can easily stand still, turn 360° around and count up to 40 rabbits (not even counting the rabbits you don't see) at once.


Yeaaah, we don't have that. We have rabbits dashing out of undergrowth under noses (sometimes), and sometimes a bit ahead, but they're NOT easily visible most of the time. Squirrels sometimes more so, but only sometimes. They're basically out of sight until flushed by a dog or person, then bolt. That's awkward for LAT training purposes.


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## Enjijoi (Sep 10, 2013)

Unfortunately depending on the trainer and different variables, because dogs are still animals with instincts, some never "graduate" from prong collars. I'm not entirely for them, but every dog reacts differently for different methods of training. And I definitely do not like choke chains, martingales sure, but choke chains don't have a stop point, there are lots of neck injuries in association with them.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Doglover65 said:


> Others have been nothing but rude, so i find it unfair to bring up mine.
> 
> Also, i would consider using those. Just never saw them.
> 
> ...


they are very easy to find on the internet; just google 'leather choke collars for dogs', 'choke leash' or 'halfcheck' and you can buy them online.

you sound like my 4 year old after her brother took somthing from her, she slaped him and then I punish her for slapping him.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Question: what's better about a slip lead or leather choke collar? You'd use them the same way you'd use a choke chain, it's just a different material. At least... I'd imagine you'd use them the same way. I'm not sure the material makes it more humane or gentle. The martingale still has a chain component that can be popped if needed too.


metal is heavier then the other materials and the other materials are friendlier 2 a dogs fur. the halfcheck doesn't choke your dog that mutch.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeaaah, we don't have that. We have rabbits dashing out of undergrowth under noses (sometimes), and sometimes a bit ahead, but they're NOT easily visible most of the time. Squirrels sometimes more so, but only sometimes. They're basically out of sight until flushed by a dog or person, then bolt. That's awkward for LAT training purposes.


yeah they just pop up out of nowhere and there are holes in the ground everywhere and whit my buggy + 2 other dogs it wasn't always easy to train her but I wouldn't give up and I was right not to. my mind was on 'this is my rule and you'll do as I say every single walk whit every single rabbit you spot' depending on the wheater that's like 200 rabbits and 3 hours a day to train on. mating season was the worst


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> metal is heavier then the other materials and the other materials are friendlier 2 a dogs fur. the halfcheck doesn't choke your dog that mutch.


Sooo... The actual correction or choking part of the collar doesn't bother you. It's the weight of the material and the dogs fur that we are worried about?

A leather choke or slip lead can do just as much correcting as a metal choke. Choke chains come in a variety of weights and sizes. They actually also come in a couple different styles: standard, fur saver, and show. The show chain is very fine. Weighs very little and doesn't mess with the fur. Fur saver is as it's name suggests, designed to not rumple up the fur. 

The martingale is hardly more humane as its supposed to tighten enough so that it won't slip over the individual wearing it. It must tighten enough. It could still be used for a correction of you wanted. 

I disagree and say that the options you presented are neither better nor worse than a regular ole choke chain. 

To be clear about how chokes are supposed to be worn and used: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TQU0SgN64dg&desktop_uri=/watch?v=TQU0SgN64dg

No actually choking should occur. Just popping. That's not positive dog training and not the way I train. But that same method can be used given the examples you provided. Just a different material.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Sooo... The actual correction or choking part of the collar doesn't bother you. It's the weight of the material and the dogs fur that we are worried about?
> 
> A leather choke or slip lead can do just as much correcting as a metal choke. Choke chains come in a variety of weights and sizes. They actually also come in a couple different styles: standard, fur saver, and show. The show chain is very fine. Weighs very little and doesn't mess with the fur. Fur saver is as it's name suggests, designed to not rumple up the fur.
> 
> ...


no, it does bother me but I can't convince them whit positive training so whit the pictures I wanna say if you choose the bad then why not look at all the options and choose the less bad solution.
they already made up there mind about there training methodes, I can't change that. so why not show them all options? + i asked a question, that doesn't automatically mean that I suport the use of these tools.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> no, it does bother me but I can't convince them whit positive training so whit the pictures I wanna say if you choose the bad then why not look at all the options and choose the less bad solution.
> they already made up there mind about there training methodes, I can't change that. so why not show them all options? + i asked a question, that doesn't automatically mean that I suport the use of these tools.


Ok. I think I get what you're saying.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think using a prong would be something I would only do with careful consideration and would be situation specific. I would never use one for a dog that I could physically control, and never on a puppy as a correctional/training tool (popping it, for example)

That said, I have been slammed into a wall by an untrained pulling GSD (possibly mixed with Dane, that dog was huge), and ever since then I have been much more cautious when taking dogs in/outside. If the dog is a strong puller I take very slow specific steps, and often brace myself on walls/doorways if I feel it's needed. Thus, I understand why in some cases, it might be necessary for everyone's safety, until the dog can be otherwise trained.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Avie said:


> I'd resort to a harness. There's a plethora of harnesses out there. That dog has to be a magician extraordinaire to be able to escape from every. single. one. that is on the market.
> I'd probably opt for a ruffwear harness, according to an acquaintance of mine with a canine escape artist herself it's specially made for houdinis, lol  Safe as can be. Another boston owner confirms her dog can't escape from it, so that's at least one type of harness that would have worked for the boston.
> Which doesn't get rid of the pulling, but that's what training is for.
> 
> Now, I'm not eager or willing to get into an argument of 'you are wrong', I just said it wasn't what I would do and since you asked, this is my answer.


I appreciate you responding at all, but this would not have been a realistic option for numerous reasons- Money and safety mostly. I did not have the means to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a harness for a dog that was not mine. I tried over 5 different types of harnesses that I could not keep him in INSIDE the house when he was reacting to dogs outside. Then there's the safety... a harness is not going to prevent him from lunging and hitting the end of the leash, potentially jerking free from whomever was walking him and killing another dog. The prong prevented it, kept him contained, AND prevented injury to his neck. 

You just... have to weigh the pros and the cons... there would still be more cons with a harness in that situation than there would with a prong, which is why I discount any trainer who isn't willing to use a type of tool on principal alone. There will come a time when a dog will need a specific tool, whether it be prong, e-collar, etc. and having those choices in your toolbox and knowing how to use them appropriately are what will make the difference in that dog.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Ok. I think I get what you're saying.


maybe a better example:
a while ago I met a girl whit a CC. she unleashed her dog so our dogs cloud play. she had a choke chain for her dog so I asked her why. she explained me what the problem was, I started talking about a positive way to handle the problem but I cloudn't convince her. she was afraid because her dog was so strong... ok so... when she asked to walk whit me whit the dogs on leash she did use the choke chain wrong so I showed her how to use it right. 
I cloudn't convice her not to use it but at least she using it the right way now, it's not a 100% what I wanna see but it's better then before.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I appreciate you responding at all, but this would not have been a realistic option for numerous reasons- Money and safety mostly. I did not have the means to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a harness for a dog that was not mine. I tried over 5 different types of harnesses that I could not keep him in INSIDE the house when he was reacting to dogs outside. Then there's the safety... a harness is not going to prevent him from lunging and hitting the end of the leash, potentially jerking free from whomever was walking him and killing another dog. The prong prevented it, kept him contained, AND prevented injury to his neck.
> 
> You just... have to weigh the pros and the cons... there would still be more cons with a harness in that situation than there would with a prong, which is why I discount any trainer who isn't willing to use a type of tool on principal alone. There will come a time when a dog will need a specific tool, whether it be prong, e-collar, etc. and having those choices in your toolbox and knowing how to use them appropriately are what will make the difference in that dog.


I understand it must've been a difficult situation to be in. In the end it's not up to me to judge whether you were right or wrong. You weighed the pros and cons and made your decision and that's fine.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

CptJack said:


> How are you spotting rabbits before them, consistently? Where in the world is that possible, on a regular basis? I'm not being snarky, but here they pop out of the ground and bolt. Not... Sit at a distance. Never mind butterflies, and squirrels. They aren't...something I see coming, what with the trees, meadows and, most importantly the fact that the prey animals I mentioned live in trees and underground. I do do those things on the rare occasion that I notice them first, but thatd damn rare. Certainly not enough for consistency.


Yeah I agree, Roxie SMELLS cats and goes nuts... I can't SMELL cats. lol It's bad but I've taken to encouraging her as long as she's on leash because I know there's no stopping her anyway and honestly I think prey drive is kind of neat. And she can't kill a cat, I've seen her try and she always ends up being the one with scratches while the cat walks away unscathed.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> maybe a better example:
> a while ago I met a girl whit a CC. she unleashed her dog so our dogs cloud play. she had a choke chain for her dog so I asked her why. she explained me what the problem was, I started talking about a positive way to handle the problem but I cloudn't convince her. she was afraid because her dog was so strong... ok so... when she asked to walk whit me whit the dogs on leash she did use the choke chain wrong so I showed her how to use it right.
> I cloudn't convice her not to use it but at least she using it the right way now, it's not a 100% what I wanna see but it's better then before.


Now I'm really confused. You are ok with chokes as long as they are being used properly?

Note: What's CC stand for again?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Now I'm really confused. You are ok with chokes as long as they are being used properly?
> 
> Note: What's CC stand for again?


If I may, I think what they are trying to say that if a person cannot be convinced to use positive training methods, they would at least prefer they use adversives correctly, to prevent serious harm to the dog.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> If I may, I think what they are trying to say that if a person cannot be convinced to use positive training methods, they would at least prefer they use adversives correctly, to prevent serious harm to the dog.


Ohhhh. Alrighty. That makes much more sense.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Now I'm really confused. You are ok with chokes as long as they are being used properly?
> 
> Note: What's CC stand for again?


Cane Corso

I'm not ok whit it but I don't just see things black and white. I cloudn't convince her to train her dog positive so if she uses the choke chain anyway, it's better for the dog to use it correctly.


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## JimmyMelson (Aug 29, 2013)

nice post.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Foresthund said:


> I used to use prong collars is was more about pulling,and sometimes prey drive or dog reactivity. Its more likely to be used on large dogs because they pull harder.
> 
> Heavy chains around the neck,or backwards prong collars are more about showing off,kind of dog gangsta bling,I don't know if those dogs are actually dangerous or not.


I actually had to google "metal dog collars" LOL, some of them look rather, harsh .

I did have a thick, spiked collar for Izze when I used to trail ride with her, with a small cow bell attached to it, but that was for her protection more then looks, that's the only time she wore it, it looked something like this:









Though I wished I could have found it in pink at the time LOL


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> If I may, I think what they are trying to say that if a person cannot be convinced to use positive training methods, they would at least prefer they use adversives correctly, to prevent serious harm to the dog.


that's exactly what I mean.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have used choke collars & even prongs before, but its like of like a high port bit on a horse, its only as harsh as the person holding the "reins". But I do agree that they shouldn't be made as readily available as they are.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I would just like to point out that in my situation, I am taking a large dog in public places where only people and service dog go (he weighs about 20 lbs less than me) consistently, throughout his training.

I use a flat collar, and when we are out, he also wears his choke in case I need it (if we are walking where there are a lot of squirrels or birds or cats and dogs, i switch the leash to it.

Why a choke and not a prong? Public appearance- the choke looks a LOT better to people passing by.

Why a choke and not a head collar? Laziness on my part. Been there and done that with my first SDIT, and I was giving the "no its not a muzzle no he does not bite" speech every five steps.

The choke is a safety backup for me. He works well on it, and I like it more than a martingale- just personal preference. They're conditioned for the left side anyway so the choke design works fine.

EDIT: forgot to add that no type of harness is ever allowed, due to the likelyhood of it messing up harness training in the future.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> I would just like to point out that in my situation, I am taking a large dog in public places where only people and service dog go (he weighs about 20 lbs less than me) consistently, throughout his training.
> 
> I use a flat collar, and when we are out, he also wears his choke in case I need it (if we are walking where there are a lot of squirrels or birds or cats and dogs, i switch the leash to it.
> 
> ...


Not trying to argue whatsoever as I understand your position, but have you thought about a cover for a prong instead?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> Not trying to argue whatsoever as I understand your position, but have you thought about a cover for a prong instead?


I have and would love to do that instead, but the group that I work with really, really doesn't like them even with covers- crazy AR people have seen dogs working, take down the name on their vest, and called the headquarters and complained that their dogs were wearing prongs in public :/

(Sorry about the really bad grammar in that phrase haha. Brain is not working.)


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Rescued, why do you care so mutch about what others think? If I did that I wouldn't have my 3 dogs because they are 'ow so dangerous' and I wouldn't walk all 3 dogs together let alone walk them whit a buggy.
why no harness?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> I have and would love to do that instead, but the group that I work with really, really doesn't like them even with covers- crazy AR people have seen dogs working, take down the name on their vest, and called the headquarters and complained that their dogs were wearing prongs in public :/
> 
> (Sorry about the really bad grammar in that phrase haha. Brain is not working.)


Definitely understand that. I figured there was a reason like that. 



linneke said:


> Rescued, why do you care so mutch about what others think? If I did that I wouldn't have my 3 dogs because they are 'ow so dangerous' and I wouldn't walk all 3 dogs together let alone walk them whit a buggy.
> why no harness?


Because she doesn't want the organization giving her a hard time about it or going against their judgement? She already commented that a harness would likely mess up future harness training for the service dog in training.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

linneke said:


> Rescued, why do you care so mutch about what others think? If I did that I wouldn't have my 3 dogs because they are 'ow so dangerous' and I wouldn't walk all 3 dogs together let alone walk them whit a buggy.
> why no harness?


If the service dog organization doesn't approve of a certain training method (be it prongs or harnesses) you shouldn't really use it. The polished part of service dog training is finished by the organization so it's kind of important to follow their guidelines.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

linneke said:


> Rescued, why do you care so mutch about what others think? If I did that I wouldn't have my 3 dogs because they are 'ow so dangerous' and I wouldn't walk all 3 dogs together let alone walk them whit a buggy.
> why no harness?


Because harness training for a disabled person is a delicate and extremely fine tuned task. The dog needs to learn to pull in the harness, but not pull too much. Harness training takes months and is done by the extremely good trainers at the foundation, and not even attempted by us foster parents. It would be awful if a puppy raiser made that impossible because they insisted on using a harness on a pup.

These are not pet dogs, these are dogs that are being honed from day 1 to work with the disabled. If I wanted to use all of my own training methods, I wouldn't be fostering for them.

And as it works out- I love raising and training for them and the proof of the pudding, so to speak, is in the dogs that they place. These dogs are happy, enthusiastic, and love their jobs


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I also don't understand why the material of a choke matters- the chain ones are way cheaper than leather ones- I'm not a fan of the cloth ones- they don't release well because there isn't enough weight.

I do wish they would make a brass choke though. It bothers me that Nugs new leather buckle collar has brass hardware and his choke is stainless hahaha.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Rescued said:


> I also don't understand why the material of a choke matters- the chain ones are way cheaper than leather ones- I'm not a fan of the cloth ones- they don't release well because there isn't enough weight.
> 
> I do wish they would make a brass choke though. It bothers me that Nugs new leather buckle collar has brass hardware and his choke is stainless hahaha.


I think it's because frankly you can't correct with a leather or fabric choke. At least not really - lack of weight and the way they fail to release and move means it's pretty much just a slowly tightening collar that responds only when the dog pulls. I... don't like anything without a stop, but I grew up watching dogs get hung and have small dogs prone to throat issues, so I am 100% biased and admit it.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Rescued said:


> I also don't understand why the material of a choke matters- the chain ones are way cheaper than leather ones- I'm not a fan of the cloth ones- they don't release well because there isn't enough weight.
> 
> I do wish they would make a brass choke though. It bothers me that Nugs new leather buckle collar has brass hardware and his choke is stainless hahaha.


http://www.leatherleashstore.com/choke-chain-brass-fine-chain-3/
There ya are.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

um WHAT.

I literally googled the other day and couldn't find one. Welp, there goes more money!


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I think it's because frankly you can't correct with a leather or fabric choke. At least not really - lack of weight and the way they fail to release and move means it's pretty much just a slowly tightening collar that responds only when the dog pulls. I... don't like anything without a stop, but I grew up watching dogs get hung and have small dogs prone to throat issues, so I am 100% biased and admit it.


Hm maybe thats it. I mean I do use corrections, its not a secret haha. I grew up with haltis and hated seeing the whiplash effect when you have a hunting dog that bolts...


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I think it's because frankly you can't correct with a leather or fabric choke. At least not really - lack of weight and the way they fail to release and move means it's pretty much just a slowly tightening collar that responds only when the dog pulls. I... don't like anything without a stop, but I grew up watching dogs get hung and have small dogs prone to throat issues, so I am 100% biased and admit it.


You can definitely still correct just as much with a fabric slip of whatever sort, at least any I've used. Recon wears a slip paracord and I could easily correct him with that- it moves just like a chain does, the noise just isn't there. It isn't slow and doesn't only respond when he pulls. He wears it predominantly as a tag collar when we're out with his harness or prong, but there have been a few times I've forgot extra collars and when he's being a ****** on a leash, he certainly responds to a mild correction with it.


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## linneke (Sep 2, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Because harness training for a disabled person is a delicate and extremely fine tuned task. The dog needs to learn to pull in the harness, but not pull too much. Harness training takes months and is done by the extremely good trainers at the foundation, and not even attempted by us foster parents. It would be awful if a puppy raiser made that impossible because they insisted on using a harness on a pup.
> 
> These are not pet dogs, these are dogs that are being honed from day 1 to work with the disabled. If I wanted to use all of my own training methods, I wouldn't be fostering for them.
> 
> And as it works out- I love raising and training for them and the proof of the pudding, so to speak, is in the dogs that they place. These dogs are happy, enthusiastic, and love their jobs


sorry, I didn't know that you train Assistance Dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> You can definitely still correct just as much with a fabric slip of whatever sort, at least any I've used. Recon wears a slip paracord and I could easily correct him with that- it moves just like a chain does, the noise just isn't there. It isn't slow and doesn't only respond when he pulls. He wears it predominantly as a tag collar when we're out with his harness or prong, but there have been a few times I've forgot extra collars and when he's being a ****** on a leash, he certainly responds to a mild correction with it.


I don't know. I've used the leather slip collars before and those things just *don't*. Heavier fabric may work better, but the leather ones tend to ...have too much spring for it, because of their shape, I think.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Rescued said:


> Hm maybe thats it. I mean I do use corrections, its not a secret haha. I grew up with haltis and hated seeing the whiplash effect when you have a hunting dog that bolts...


That's why I have not used head collars on Thud with his lunging after prey animals problem. It IS getting better as he learns self-control, but I'd rather him hit a prong correction than break his neck.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I find that leather chokes don't wear very nicely. They look nice until you don't condition them. Then they look all crackly and might even break on you. 

Chain is a more reliable option.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I dogsat a Rottie for 2 years and they/I used a prong to walk him. He walked much better in it. He wasn't horrible without it, but it was just... easier with him in it. However, it did pop off twice on me, so I always connected it to both his regular collar and prong.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

CptJack said:


> That's why I have not used head collars on Thud with his lunging after prey animals problem. It IS getting better as he learns self-control, but I'd rather him hit a prong correction than break his neck.


I will say this (and not trying to "start anything", just thinking after puppy class this morning)

I dont think you *said* it was, but I'm not sure that using a prong on an animal bound to lunge against it is any "better" than me using a choke when training nug.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Rescued said:


> I will say this (and not trying to "start anything", just thinking after puppy class this morning)
> 
> I dont think you *said* it was, but I'm not sure that using a prong on an animal bound to lunge against it is any "better" than me using a choke when training nug.


I didn't - I said it's better than doing it on a head collar.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I didn't - I said it's better than doing it on a head collar.


okay, that is true.

can you tell that I'm feeling a bit sensitive about the amount nug pulled today at the puppy meeting 

(and the fact that i am healing from a pretty bad dog bite -no, not nug- and am constantly in pain every time he pulls.)


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## ConorD (Sep 14, 2013)

Admittedly, my only experience with prong collars are aggressive pit mixes in the neighborhood - mostly being used as status symbols on the dogs - and a former roommate trying to manage a half-coyote mix with disastrous results (I was young and foolish, she was young and dangerous). I don't think those are good for the animals - or, rather, I don't think I've seen them put to good use.


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