# tips on training a dog I walk



## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

I have begun walking a German Shepherd that is owned by a neighbor who can't do it often enough. The dog is 4 months old and I'm trying to teach it to walk with a leash. Very hard going! He pulls constantly and I am forever saying heel. The owner does nothing with the dog unfortunately. I am trying to help with his exercise so that I have a walking companion and he can get some training. I need a few more tips. Since I am only with him maybe 3-5 hrs. per week it's not very fruitful so far. He's getting so strong that if I can't manage to get this under control he may be too much for me in a few months, i.e. he's very strong! Some suggestions?


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Hmmm ... I have o clue but I would like to say that you are doing a good thing trying to help and all...thank you!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

You're neighbor is very lucky to have you. There's a few things I would try. A gentle leader harness is one. Another would be to stop and change directions any time he pulls...if he's a follower, he'll change directions too. You may not go very far at first, but overtime it does help. You also need to pay attention to when you are asking for "heel". If the dog is already pulling, it's too late..."heel" means nothing to him, but "pull". You need to associate the command with what you want and reward accordingly. So when he's at your side walking like a gentlemen, say "heel", and when he looks at you (optional), say "yes" and quickly give him a piece of kibble. Encourage the walk behind by giving him the kibble behind your back, especially if he likes to pull for the kibble...hopefully he's been taught some bite inhibition, otherwise you may need to use another approach. You may need to constantly command-mark-praise at first, but again over time it should get better. It's certainly much more challenging to teach a pup to walk at heel outside of a training class (where you can be shown what to do), but it can be done. This is just one idea, I'm sure other good ones will follow. Good luck!


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

*dog walking/training*

Thank you for the tips. I'll try them ASAP. Another question in the meantime. Is jerking his head with the leash doing him any good? Or reinforcing his pulling? Thx!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I have to assume that a jerk is a negative response to pulling, so no it wouldn't reinforce pulling. However, jerking can destroy trust and confidence in the dog, and confuse him. Therefore, I wouldn't gamble with it and avoid it if you can.


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks for the heads up on that.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> You're neighbor is very lucky to have you. There's a few things I would try. A gentle leader harness is one. Another would be to stop and change directions any time he pulls...if he's a follower, he'll change directions too. You may not go very far at first, but overtime it does help. You also need to pay attention to when you are asking for "heel". If the dog is already pulling, it's too late..."heel" means nothing to him, but "pull". You need to associate the command with what you want and reward accordingly. So when he's at your side walking like a gentlemen, say "heel", and when he looks at you (optional), say "yes" and quickly give him a piece of kibble. Encourage the walk behind by giving him the kibble behind your back, especially if he likes to pull for the kibble...hopefully he's been taught some bite inhibition, otherwise you may need to use another approach. You may need to constantly command-mark-praise at first, but again over time it should get better. It's certainly much more challenging to teach a pup to walk at heel outside of a training class (where you can be shown what to do), but it can be done. This is just one idea, I'm sure other good ones will follow. Good luck!


A harness isn't going to help you control a dog. You need a pinch collar. Quick pops on the leash let the dog know he is in the wrong. He'll learn quick.

Another thing is feed the dog treats as you walk. As the dog walks beside you give him a piece of food. Make sure you say good heal, good boy , good whatever the name. good heal. feed a piece of food. You can use the cheap dog food. give one piece every couple of steps.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> A harness isn't going to help you control a dog. You need a pinch collar. Quick pops on the leash let the dog know he is in the wrong. He'll learn quick.


I recommended a gentle leader, not an on-top clip harness. Harnesses that do clip on the top won't help pulling. A gentle leader however, the kind that clips on the front of the chest (easy walk) use an opposite reflex to discourage pulling. What you're describing is negative reinforcement, and that's never my first option when alternate methods have proven to be useful to me.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I recommended a gentle leader, not an on-top clip harness. Harnesses that do clip on the top won't help pulling. A gentle leader however, the kind that clips on the front of the chest (easy walk) use an opposite reflex to discourage pulling. What you're describing is negative reinforcement, and that's never my first option when alternate methods have proven to be useful to me.


Are you talking about a halter? 

"negative reinforcement" being bad is an opinion and isn't bad in my eyes. It does the same thing a mom dog does the pups. It can be used and should be used without hurting the dog. If you jerk it as hard as you can of course you can hurt the dog but that goes the same with a halter.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> Are you talking about a halter?
> 
> "negative reinforcement" being bad is an opinion and isn't bad in my eyes. It does the same thing a mom dog does the pups. It can be used and should be used without hurting the dog. If you jerk it as hard as you can of course you can hurt the dog but that goes the same with a halter.


No, a halter is used on the head. I'm referring to to the Easy Walk harness by Gentle Leader...there's no jerking, the dog's own pressure deters the pulling. Negative reinforcement is an option, but like I said before, it's never my first option...I usually succeed with other approaches before even considering it. Additionally, having worked with a low confidence dog, negative reinforcement would never be an option. I understand how and why jerking can and does work, however, most handlers do not use it appropriately...in fact it's often misused. I can't comment on your abilities, I've never seen you jerk a dog. However, most modern dog trainers that I've read, know, and learned from agree that positive reinforcement far outweighs negative reinforcement in the overall health of the dog. Maybe your dog doesn't have any problems, that's great, however, most dogs do come with problems, and negative reinforcement can ruin a dog in the wrong hands. That's just my opinion, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with it.


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

Lots of info here so I will try to purchase the correct leash and halter. I am a total novice at this so all of the info I get can only help. 

Today though I had to finally let him run as he pulled me so much he was in the air, like a huskie pulling a sled in a race! He will ruin my arm before I can get anywhere with him. Instead I let him go free but spent lots of time whistling for him to return to me and then I gave him a treat to reinforce that behavior. He has way too much energy and power. I'm feeling I should work with him this way until I can get further with him. I tried to get him to walk around me following my hand with the treat, as I saw in one of the short videos here on this website. I walk him in a city forest where it is possible to let him go free. 

A friend came with her dog so maybe that was a bit of a distraction in the beginning. He continuously looked back at me but sometimes when he returned for the treat he barely stayed long enough for it before he ran off. I can't run well with him on the leash since a year ago I sprained my ankle and now I can only walk fast. He only wants to go fast, fast, fast! I am doing the right thing for now? Next step? I don't want to give up on him.



Curbside Prophet said:


> No, a halter is used on the head. I'm referring to to the Easy Walk harness by Gentle Leader...there's no jerking, the dog's own pressure deters the pulling. Negative reinforcement is an option, but like I said before, it's never my first option...I usually succeed with other approaches before even considering it. Additionally, having worked with a low confidence dog, negative reinforcement would never be an option. I understand how and why jerking can and does work, however, most handlers do not use it appropriately...in fact it's often misused. I can't comment on your abilities, I've never seen you jerk a dog. However, most modern dog trainers that I've read, know, and learned from agree that positive reinforcement far outweighs negative reinforcement in the overall health of the dog. Maybe your dog doesn't have any problems, that's great, however, most dogs do come with problems, and negative reinforcement can ruin a dog in the wrong hands. That's just my opinion, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with it.


What about a collar that pulls around his nose? I don't know the name of it. Maybe it's to prevent them from biting (which is not his problem). Is that a good alternative? Since this is not my dog I don't want to spend too much money.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> No, a halter is used on the head. I'm referring to to the Easy Walk harness by Gentle Leader...there's no jerking, the dog's own pressure deters the pulling. Negative reinforcement is an option, but like I said before, it's never my first option...I usually succeed with other approaches before even considering it. Additionally, having worked with a low confidence dog, negative reinforcement would never be an option. I understand how and why jerking can and does work, however, most handlers do not use it appropriately...in fact it's often misused. I can't comment on your abilities, I've never seen you jerk a dog. However, most modern dog trainers that I've read, know, and learned from agree that positive reinforcement far outweighs negative reinforcement in the overall health of the dog. Maybe your dog doesn't have any problems, that's great, however, most dogs do come with problems, and negative reinforcement can ruin a dog in the wrong hands. That's just my opinion, I'm not expecting anyone to agree with it.


If you have a scared dog a pinch collar is a bad idea. A flat collar will work. I don't think this is the case tho. It seems like her dog has lots of drive, like a GSD should. I found the harness you are talking about.

http://www.premier.com/pages.cfm?id=77

I would have to see it work on a couple dogs. I am not sure I would buy in to it with a bigger dog with high drive. I can see the dog turning around and pulling away from you like tug of war or the leash going right under their legs and just keep pulling.

Do those modern dog trainers stop the bitch from nipping at their pups? Dogs negative reinforcement each other because that is how they communicate. In the wild weak dogs die and the strongest make the next gen of dogs. It is like my submissive beagle, very very laid back, the rotty will bug the snot out of her. She'll get sick of it and run him off. The beagle isn't like hey please stop, she nips, yelps, and barks at him. Just like Sabot's mom and littermates did to him. 

I think you need positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement. It is the same with kids. You can spot out positive reinforcement kid from a mile away. They are the kid on the planet that is going crazy. Mom is saying honey stop, please stop. honey stop, please stop. The kid is still going crazy...



Babs89 said:


> Lots of info here so I will try to purchase the correct leash and halter. I am a total novice at this so all of the info I get can only help.
> 
> Today though I had to finally let him run as he pulled me so much he was in the air, like a huskie pulling a sled in a race! He will ruin my arm before I can get anywhere with him. Instead I let him go free but spent lots of time whistling for him to return to me and then I gave him a treat to reinforce that behavior. He has way too much energy and power. I'm feeling I should work with him this way until I can get further with him. I tried to get him to walk around me following my hand with the treat, as I saw in one of the short videos here on this website. I walk him in a city forest where it is possible to let him go free.
> 
> ...


If you can't control the dog on leash he really doesn't need to be off leash in an open area with other dogs and people. http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/fitprong.pdf


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> Do those modern dog trainers stop the bitch from nipping at their pups? Dogs negative reinforcement each other because that is how they communicate. In the wild weak dogs die and the strongest make the next gen of dogs. It is like my submissive beagle, very very laid back, the rotty will bug the snot out of her. She'll get sick of it and run him off. The beagle isn't like hey please stop, she nips, yelps, and barks at him. Just like Sabot's mom and littermates did to him.


No, a modern dog trainer would not stop a bitch from teaching her pups manners. However, if you want me to agree that I as a human can communicate as effectively to a dog as another dog can, I won't do that. If you want me to agree that negative reinforcement won't hurt a dog, even if it appears the correction was minor in my eyes, I won't do that. The problem with negative reinforcement training, as I've said before, it's often misused and over used. For example, the Monks of New Skete, the supposed originators of the alpha roll, now regret showing others this technique. Why? Because they intended it only to be used for the most serious dog crimes. However, now anyone who sees a Dog Whisperer show now thinks it's acceptable even for minor crimes like puppy nipping. I've seen first hand how the distance between being frustrated and over correcting can cause serious psycological problems in a dog. And I've also seen how positive reinforcement techniques work marvels on just about ever dog I've come in contact with. Why would I choose negative reinforcement techniques when the potential for harm may appear?...especially if I've found alternate methods equally effective? The fact that negative reinforcement works on some dogs, isn't a good enough excuse for me to ever recommend it to any dog, regardless if the dog has a high drive or not. I don't know if you've ever taken a look at the landscape of dog training in general, but what I see, are trainers like the person you recommended are falling off the map while other trainers, who are taking the lead from methods explored by Karen Pryor, are now popping up everywhere. I'll never tell you to stop what's working for you, nor can I recommend it if I chose it not to work for me. Sorry.



Babs89 said:


> He only wants to go fast, fast, fast! I am doing the right thing for now? Next step? I don't want to give up on him.
> 
> What about a collar that pulls around his nose? I don't know the name of it. Maybe it's to prevent them from biting (which is not his problem). Is that a good alternative? Since this is not my dog I don't want to spend too much money.


Well, your sort of in a difficult predicament because this is your neighbor's dog. This fact is working against you because what you and the dog need is a good obedience trainer. This young pup could learn a lot of manners if the owner would invest in them. I don't know if you have the time, resources, or position to recommend this to your neighbor, but that's what I would do. However, Turid describes one technique in this link that may be useful to you. Questions & Ansvers from Turid Rugaas

The device used to prevent bitting is called a muzzle, and it wouldn't help with walking. You may be referring to a head halter. It is an alternative if other methods aren't working. However, I'm personally not a fan of head halters...it seems like a horse concept being applied to dogs, which isn't a bad thing, but some vets are concerned about the pressure that can be applied to the back of the ears on a dog. My cousin uses a head halter for her Great Dane, and it was very successful...but Great Danes are like horses aren't they?  As a temporary alternative, I'm not all that opposed to it if it's the only tool available.


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

FranMan said:


> A harness isn't going to help you control a dog. You need a pinch collar. Quick pops on the leash let the dog know he is in the wrong. He'll learn quick.
> 
> Another thing is feed the dog treats as you walk. As the dog walks beside you give him a piece of food. Make sure you say good heal, good boy , good whatever the name. good heal. feed a piece of food. You can use the cheap dog food. give one piece every couple of steps.


A pinch collar is the kind that tightens if they pull, generally looks like a metal chain, correct? Would it be dangerous to the dog since he's used to pulling me?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Babs89 said:


> A pinch collar is the kind that tightens if they pull, generally looks like a metal chain, correct? Would it be dangerous to the dog since he's used to pulling me?


No, a pinch collar has prongs coming out on the inside. The other you're describing is a choke chain. Between the two, the pinch collar is better suited. However, if you go this route, please have someone show you how to properly fit, use, and adjust a pinch collar.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> No, a modern dog trainer would not stop a bitch from teaching her pups manners. However, if you want me to agree that I as a human can communicate as effectively to a dog as another dog can, I won't do that. If you want me to agree that negative reinforcement won't hurt a dog, even if it appears the correction was minor in my eyes, I won't do that. The problem with negative reinforcement training, as I've said before, it's often misused and over used. For example, the Monks of New Skete, the supposed originators of the alpha roll, now regret showing others this technique. Why? Because they intended it only to be used for the most serious dog crimes. However, now anyone who sees a Dog Whisperer show now thinks it's acceptable even for minor crimes like puppy nipping. I've seen first hand how the distance between being frustrated and over correcting can cause serious psycological problems in a dog. And I've also seen how positive reinforcement techniques work marvels on just about ever dog I've come in contact with. Why would I choose negative reinforcement techniques when the potential for harm may appear?...especially if I've found alternate methods equally effective? The fact that negative reinforcement works on some dogs, isn't a good enough excuse for me to ever recommend it to any dog, regardless if the dog has a high drive or not. I don't know if you've ever taken a look at the landscape of dog training in general, but what I see, are trainers like the person you recommended are falling off the map while other trainers, who are taking the lead from methods explored by Karen Pryor, are now popping up everywhere. I'll never tell you to stop what's working for you, nor can I recommend it if I chose it not to work for me. Sorry.


Like I said raising dogs is like raising kids. Everyone has their own idea on what is right. I haven't seen any clicker trainers. I guess when you are doing bite work the clicker doesn't cut it? "stop biting him, please stop, that's not nice" click click  (just giving you a hard time) 

I am sure their lots of the Pryor type trainers popping. My neighbor says she is a dog trainer. She even wanted to house break my beagle. Now this person is a said to be "dog trainer" they have 5-6 dogs. They have had lots of puppies through out the years also. I don't ask her what "kind" of trainer she is but I am guessing they aren't a pincher trainer. I watched their kid put up a huge whining fit because had to go to her room for 10 minutes. They said they don't spank because they don't want their kids not to like them... Now about twice a month two of their dogs get out and the chase is on!! There is zero OB and recall??? I don't think so. My neighbors are nice people and I would never tell them how to raise their kids or dogs. I just help them catch their dogs when they get loose. I will say my neighbor was shocked when she watched my rotty off lead heel while I walked him from the fenced area up to my house (about 200'). I didn't know she was watching. She said something when my 11 was walking Sabot over to her house meet up with her 13 year old to go for a walk. She said she was jealous how good my dog was. I told her it was because I took to a high dollar training class  I left out that I work with him. 

These people are popping up. Doesn't mean it is right. If you listen to the dog whisperer show they say the local trainers always fail and most of the time say to put the dogs down. They are alway trying to pass a law in Cali to ban spanking of kids under 3.....

I am going with dogs are pack animals. The alpha uses sniping (pinch collar) to correct bad things. 






Babs89 said:


> A pinch collar is the kind that tightens if they pull, generally looks like a metal chain, correct? Would it be dangerous to the dog since he's used to pulling me?


I know the automerge messes up my posts sometime. Scroll up and you'll see a link that has the info you need on pinch collars. 

He pulls on a flat collar. Just putting on the pinch will prolly slow down his pulling. It isn't going to feel good pull with the pinch on. You don't want tension on the leash. Light pops on the leash will get him to back off some. When you are popping it say heel. If he doesn't stop tension on the leash stop walking and wait until he calms start the walk again. If he is heeling make sure you say good heel, good boy. The adding some food will help also.

Do you need to talk to the owner about want you are doing. He may even be willing to send you and the dog to training. Tell him you want to train the dog to sit, heel, down, and stay. Maybe he is just lazy and doesn't want to do it? Have you thought about seeing if he'd sell you the dog?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> Like I said raising dogs is like raising kids. Everyone has their own idea on what is right. I haven't seen any clicker trainers. I guess when you are doing bite work the clicker doesn't cut it? "stop biting him, please stop, that's not nice" click click  (just giving you a hard time)


I know you're just giving me a hard time, and I don't mind. I understand both schools of thought, I just happen to now prescribe to one different than yours. However, if you've noticed I haven't been criticizing your method, just defending mine. I wouldn't use a clicker for a pup and bite inhibition, and it doesn't go exactly how you described it, but I also wouldn't jab my dog in the neck to stop him/her from biting either. I'm sure there are many ways to the end result, I can only offer what I've found to be the best. 



FranMan said:


> I am sure their lots of the Pryor type trainers popping. My neighbor says she is a dog trainer. She even wanted to house break my beagle. Now this person is a said to be "dog trainer" they have 5-6 dogs. They have had lots of puppies through out the years also. I don't ask her what "kind" of trainer she is but I am guessing they aren't a pincher trainer. I watched their kid put up a huge whining fit because had to go to her room for 10 minutes. They said they don't spank because they don't want their kids not to like them... Now about twice a month two of their dogs get out and the chase is on!! There is zero OB and recall??? I don't think so. My neighbors are nice people and I would never tell them how to raise their kids or dogs. I just help them catch their dogs when they get loose. I will say my neighbor was shocked when she watched my rotty off lead heel while I walked him from the fenced area up to my house (about 200'). I didn't know she was watching. She said something when my 11 was walking Sabot over to her house meet up with her 13 year old to go for a walk. She said she was jealous how good my dog was. I told her it was because I took to a high dollar training class  I left out that I work with him.


I can't comment on your neighbors training abilities. And I tend not to accept anecdotal evidence as proof of one training method being better than another. Again, I can only offer what I know to work...just like you do. 



FranMan said:


> These people are popping up. Doesn't mean it is right. If you listen to the dog whisperer show they say the local trainers always fail and most of the time say to put the dogs down. They are alway trying to pass a law in Cali to ban spanking of kids under 3.....


I was spanked occasionally when I was younger, and I can't say it was a disservice to me...but I also can't say it benefited me. But last time I checked, I didn't need to jab a kid in the neck, or pull on his/her ear to follow my lead. I would also say that a child's ability to reason is far greater than that of a dog. So aren't we comparing apples to oranges here? And if you think finding a good local trainer is about flipping through the yellow pages for the one with the flashiest ad, I'd suggest more work could be done. The problem with trainers these days is that pretty much anybody can call themselves a professional. But I would say the difference between the local trainer you described and the ones I've worked with are vastly different, and good research can lead you to a better trainer. 



FranMan said:


> I am going with dogs are pack animals. The alpha uses sniping (pinch collar) to correct bad things.


NILIF alone can establish alpha status without jerk and puke methods. I'm going with dogs are pack animals too, but I'd suggest a study in "dog" pack behavior is slightly different than "wolf" pack behavior, and that the occurrence of sniping is not as often as one might think...especially if you take one of Cesar's shows to heart.

The bottom line is, I know what you do to correct your dog...or I should say I know many of the methods available out there for correction. I haven't always prescribed to positive reinforcement...I didn't know any better, and alternatives did work. However, having made the switch, I don't have any examples or reasons why I would ever go back. Heck, everyone should know by now that smoking causes cancer, but people still do that too, right? We have the choice. But I would feel very foolish to recommend one method when I know another has worked better for me or could cause harm.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

oh yeah! well how about this!
http://boostedmopar.com/temp/sabot_snow.wmv


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> oh yeah! well how about this!
> http://boostedmopar.com/temp/sabot_snow.wmv


I agree, your dog is awesome!


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

I looked at a pinch collar, wow, the first pull would do major damage to his neck, or am I wrong? The owner does not mind that I walk and attempt to train the dog. He is totally oblivious to training methods and seems to have no interest in it. The dog is on a short chain. It breaks my heart but I have absolutley no influence over the owner, who is basically an idiot who should never have gotten the dog in the first place. I am afraid there will be a bad ending to this story. (I live in an apt. so I can never keep this dog). Is there an online video showing the pinch collar in use somewhere? When I get the dog he is jumping all over me while I attach the leash. Then he immediately starts to pull me with all of his might. He must weigh 25 lbs by now. If the pinch collar will do the trick quickly I want to try it. I can't manage his pulling any longer. My wrist is starting to hurt when I am not with him. I don't want permanent damage!

Is there an online video of a Pryor trainer? Your discussion about popping, Pryor, clickers, etc has lost me! As I said I am a novice.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

It is now time of *you* to go research your options.

prong collars
http://leerburg.com/ (has a 4 hour video that will help you)

Clicker stuff
http://www.clickertraining.com/

As for major damage to his neck. No I don't think so. Dogs are pretty tough, even more so a GSD. The pinch collar looks 100x worse then it is. It kind of like a guy that a the circus that lays down on a bed of nails. The trick is there are many nails to take the weight. There are lots of prongs on the collar to take the pressure. Here is want you need to do go to petsmart. Pick up a pinch collar stick around your arm and jerk it some. The hold the ring and pull away with your other arm. You can see how little it hurts unless you reall snap it. If you feel it is too much it is back and look for a clicker 

Before you go on walks you need to make him settle down. This maybe hard but just wait until he clams down some. I think you are starting the whole walk off wrong by let him go ape crap crazy right before the walk.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Babs89 said:


> I looked at a pinch collar, wow, the first pull would do major damage to his neck, or am I wrong? When I get the dog he is jumping all over me while I attach the leash. Then he immediately starts to pull me with all of his might. He must weigh 25 lbs by now. If the pinch collar will do the trick quickly I want to try it. I can't manage his pulling any longer. My wrist is starting to hurt when I am not with him. I don't want permanent damage!
> 
> Is there an online video of a Pryor trainer? Your discussion about popping, Pryor, clickers, etc has lost me! As I said I am a novice.


An ill fitted and improperly used pinch collar can cause serious trachea damage, not to mention possible psychological damage. However, if fitted properly, and used correctly a pinch collar can be safe. However, if you're looking for a quick fix...don't expect one from a pinch collar or any other training method for that matter. You have to be of the mind set that whatever happens you need to be consistent and patient for any training method to work. I think FranMan makes an excellent point about letting the dog go crazy from the get go. It may be of more value to you to teach this dog some basic obedience like "sit" so you can give him an option before you're forced to ignore him and his naughtiness. If you can tire him out too before the walk with fetch play, that may help. 

ClickFlicks -- Loose Leash Walking :: Dog training videos for download from Karen Pryor Clickertraining


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## harleynstorm (Jan 14, 2007)

http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...=1170730822066&itemNo=1&In=Dog&N=2025643&Ne=2


FranMan said:


> A harness isn't going to help you control a dog. You need a pinch collar. Quick pops on the leash let the dog know he is in the wrong. He'll learn quick.
> 
> Another thing is feed the dog treats as you walk. As the dog walks beside you give him a piece of food. Make sure you say good heal, good boy , good whatever the name. good heal. feed a piece of food. You can use the cheap dog food. give one piece every couple of steps.


I totally disagree with you. I have a one year old male doberman pincsher and I used to use a pinch collar and it did not help he would pull anyway and end up hurting himself. I now use the gentle leader and he acts perfect when we go for a walk. At first he tried getting it off but I have no problem with him pulling. Babs please don't take this guys advice and I believe everyone else but him will agree with that!!! Good luck.

http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...=1170730822066&itemNo=1&In=Dog&N=2025643&Ne=2 This is the gentle leader that I use on my doberman. He weighs about 90 lbs. so maybe you should consider this instead of the pincher collar. If it is properly put on then it will work great.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

harleynstorm said:


> http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...=1170730822066&itemNo=1&In=Dog&N=2025643&Ne=2
> 
> I totally disagree with you. I have a one year old male doberman pincsher and I used to use a pinch collar and it did not help he would pull anyway and end up hurting himself. I now use the gentle leader and he acts perfect when we go for a walk. At first he tried getting it off but I have no problem with him pulling. Babs please don't take this guys advice and I believe everyone else but him will agree with that!!! Good luck.
> 
> http://www.petsmart.com/global/prod...=1170730822066&itemNo=1&In=Dog&N=2025643&Ne=2 This is the gentle leader that I use on my doberman. He weighs about 90 lbs. so maybe you should consider this instead of the pincher collar. If it is properly put on then it will work great.


Wow! I think someone needs to take a chill pill. 

Just because YOU don't know how to use a pinch collar doesn't mean it is wrong. LOTS of people use prong collars. Your doberman is pulling you because he is the boss and not you. If your dog got hurt it is your fault for allowing him to keep tension on the leash which is the WRONG way to use a prong collar. If you read this whole thread you will see that.

My statement about a harness not having control is true. A normal harness allows your dog to safely pull and gives you no control. A "gentle leader" isn't a normal harness... Which again if you read the whole thread you would have seen that was discussed. 

A pinch collar isn't just for walking. It is also for OB training. I am glad you have an opinion on pinch collars and that you shared it. But don't say that I am wrong and not to take my advise. There are many many many ways to train dogs. People new to the site need to see ALL the options and then they can make up their mind on what to use. I didn't bash the gentle leader just said it isn't something I would buy.

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/4504-gentle-leader-help.html


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

Hmm... more contrary info. In the meantime I have made baby steps with him. He now comes to me and sits for a treat. My efforts with a leash have yielded only a bit of success. I bought the pinch collar but have not yet tried it since he already had the bad habit of pulling when I started walking him so I think he would immediately hurt himself. Once I get him worn out a bit, calm and "eating out of my hand" I will try the pinch collar. Sound ok for now? Big, big thanks for all of the time people have put in to answering my questions. I am reading your suggessted websites and trying to find video clips with training tips. Thanks!


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Babs89 said:


> Hmm... more contrary info. In the meantime I have made baby steps with him. He now comes to me and sits for a treat. My efforts with a leash have yielded only a bit of success. I bought the pinch collar but have not yet tried it since he already had the bad habit of pulling when I started walking him so I think he would immediately hurt himself. Once I get him worn out a bit, calm and "eating out of my hand" I will try the pinch collar. Sound ok for now? Big, big thanks for all of the time people have put in to answering my questions. I am reading your suggessted websites and trying to find video clips with training tips. Thanks!


Sounds like a good idea. Remember don't do anything you don't feel good about.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Babs89 said:


> Hmm... more contrary info. In the meantime I have made baby steps with him. He now comes to me and sits for a treat. My efforts with a leash have yielded only a bit of success. I bought the pinch collar but have not yet tried it since he already had the bad habit of pulling when I started walking him so I think he would immediately hurt himself. Once I get him worn out a bit, calm and "eating out of my hand" I will try the pinch collar. Sound ok for now? Big, big thanks for all of the time people have put in to answering my questions. I am reading your suggessted websites and trying to find video clips with training tips. Thanks!


Maybe this will help too.
Loose Leash Walking Using Positive Reinforcers - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

Thanks everyone for your messages and training video links. 

Yesterday I only made a few steps without his pulling. He's going in circles around me so at least that's a bit of progress. I am tempted to take back the pinch collar and get a harness now!! Not sure if it's the brand you've all mentioned but it looks like the photo on the website. I've made real progress with the commands of stop, come, sit and lay down but using a leash seems a bit far off for now. Maybe I just don't have the confidence that I can really progress on that but I am motivated to try the halter, more than the pinch collar. 

Is there a link to a short video clip that shows how to get a dog to simply sit and wait? For now the only thing he waits for is the treat when I've called him to me. I guess I have to wear him out a bit before I can expect him to calmy sit next to me.

I also have gotten him to sit while I take him from his chained area. He rarely jumps on me now. That is a huge step since he used to cover me from head to foot with his dirty paws. Now I can wear the same jacket the next day! I was able to do that because during walking he's learned to come and sit for his treat.

Unfortunately his space is very dirty and little attention is paid to it. I want to take a hose to it. They don't even separate his food area from where he defacates because his chain is too short! It is too sad. I am trying to win the owner's confidence so that what I say, CLEANLINESS!!!, is understood as important, and that it's for the long term benefit of the dog. He seems to think the dog doesn't care and it proves he's just a dirty animal. Sigh.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Wow, you're a dog saint for wanting to help this dog. It's too bad this dog couldn't be owned by you. However, this site may be helpful...
Video: How to Teach a Dog to Sit from ExpertVillage

Good luck!


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

6 months to heel?
http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/dog-training-use-pull-harness.htm


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> 6 months to heel?
> http://www.expertvillage.com/videos/dog-training-use-pull-harness.htm



If she's using the harness alone and no other reinforcers, I could see this being true. But every dog and trainer is different as you know.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If she's using the harness alone and no other reinforcers, I could see this being true. But every dog and trainer is different as you know.


That dog has seen some treats.  You can always tell a treat dog. They stair at you waiting for a treat, like hurry it up I just sat now pay me!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FranMan said:


> You can always tell a treat dog. They stair at you waiting for a treat, like hurry it up I just sat now pay me!


I see some monkey in these statements.


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I see some monkey in these statements.


Click, that's funny.


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## GSDmama (Feb 14, 2007)

For my 5 month old GSD I keep him on an extremely short leash so he is directly by my side and I also have a choke collar on him. Before that choke collar he wanted to pull me all over the place. Now with a small snap from the leash he stops pulling me and will walk by my side. I've done this for the past 2 weeks and he has been doing SO WELL, I haven't had to do any snaps.


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## Danny'sGirl (Jan 7, 2007)

I'd recommend at least trying a Gentle Leader head collar, or the Halti. Mine was about $20 at Petco, and it's been a great answer with Danny. He's 5, and was not leash trained at all well when I got him 2 months ago from a shelter. He was a big old 55lb puller. 

The way a halti collar works, there is a strap over the nose, which drops down and has a ring you clip your leash to. There are straps which click behind your dog's neck to hold the harness on. From the ring below the chin, there is a little saftey strap you can clip to his normal collar, just in case he might somehow break out of the head collar.

Here's a picture of Danny with it on. You can see where your leash clips. If your dog pulls on the leash, the strap over his nose will tighten up, and since that's unpleasant for him, he'll stop pulling. That's the theory, and it works like a charm with Danny. For a while, he still used to bounce at bunnies and lunge at deer, but he definitely caught himself short and didn't nearly take my arm out of the socket like he used to. He's even stopped that now, and I am gradually making a changeover to walking him on leash without it - he's getting it that calm walks with praise & playing ball are more fun for both of us. 

I'm also fortunate that I just call him, tell him sit, and slip the nose strap over his nose and click it behind his ears with no struggling or evasive behavior from him. He's very calm about it because he knows it means we're going out. 

Good luck with your neighbor's dog!


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Pinch Collar solved my dogs pulling problem in 1 day...

EDIT: But then again Dobermans are smarter than most dogs


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## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> Pinch Collar solved my dogs pulling problem in 1 day...
> 
> EDIT: But then again Dobermans are smarter than most dogs


GSD's are up there on the list, higher then Dobers or Rotties. Of course that's just the norm.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

FranMan said:


> GSD's are up there on the list, higher then Dobers or Rotties. Of course that's just the norm.


GSDs are great dogs. I would love to have one, but here in SoCal it gets waaay too hot in the summer to own a dog with a coat like the GSD's


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

Hey guys I'm baaaack! Here's an update and some more questions (of course). 

The GSD has disappeared unfortunately. I don't know if what I've been told is the truth. I just hope he's with a good family and has not become roadside kill. He got loose and.... who knows after that. 

Now I am walking a 6 month old Kangal puppy. He belongs to the security guards that patrol the city forest where I walk. They are too lazy to walk him and seem to be afraid of him. He needs exercise and I need a companion in this large forest. A Kangal is bred to be a livestock guardian dog and recently more as a family guard dog. They originate from a province in Turkey called Sivas. They are known to be fiercely loyal, intelligent and good with families. He is quite well behaved after my working with him with a pinch collar. He responds quite well to the quick clicks for sitting and waiting and walking with the leash. 

Since I am still a novice and don't know that much about dog behavior, when he sees a female dog in heat (or smells one) I am uncertain whether I will be able to handle him. He gets very excited about other dogs, butterflies, even airplanes!! He's a lot to handle and is about 50 lbs and could become as much as 140 lbs! Right now he jumps straight up in the air to go after a butterfly and has refused to continue our walk if he wants to play with another dog. I am afraid he would be able to knock me down. When I need to continue after a bit of play with another dog I have simply been insisting, much to his dislike. Then is he hard to handle. With so many street dogs, untrained dogs, and unkind owners to their own dogs where I live I want to be sure I have some more good tips to handle every situation. Your previous tips and video instruction websites have been extremely helpful by the way. A friend will lend me a book on dog behavior she bought in the UK and I will also search this website for more tips in other threads. Some suggestions for this particular problem will be most appreciated!


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## Babs89 (Jan 30, 2007)

I was hoping to get some responses to my latest posting. This summer when I go to the states I will look into the Gentle Leader. Any problem with switching from the pinch collar to that? This sweet Kangal dog is loving walking with me and looks to me for direction. He's so well behaved--it's such a great feeling to have come this far with him. He is so lucky to have me walk him otherwise his life would be quite grim on his short chain. Just some unknowns for me since he will get huge and not sure about behaviors with females around. Could you answer my questions from my posting on 4-29-07 please? A friend suggested the book "The Dog Listener". Do you have any knowledge of her techniques? I want to improve my knowledge and have even more success with him. Thanks!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Understanding what your dog is communicating, especially in public is important...Calming Signals Community. Try to use some of these techniques to diffuse the excitability...although if your dog isn't neutered and dogs in heat are running around, I'm not sure if there's much you can do to prevent internal motivations from taking over. 

There shouldn't be any problems switching between tools so long as you understand how to use them and to take it slow. Some dogs adjust pretty quickly, some don't, and for some it may not be good or necessary. You just need to assess the situation as you go, and be patient.


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## zenproductions (May 3, 2007)

I've been told that walking is a treat so if the dog starts pulling the walking stops. Stop and cross your arms, don't move. After, or if, the dog stops pulling tell him to sit and then praise the dog. Continue on your walk. Once he pulls again, the walk stops. If you keep doing this he will catch on. Oh yeah, have treats handy for a good dog.


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