# It's all over



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Mirada is dysplastic. Moderate to severe.

She'll be spayed when we move.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Oh crap!
So sorry to hear that!!!


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## 123fraggle (Feb 20, 2009)

Oh wow!! So sorry to hear that. Poor Mirada.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That sucks butt. To put it mildly.  So sorry.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

OMG, No! I'm so sorry to hear that Jackie I know you had high hopes for her. I will tell you to make sure to get a second opinion BEFORE you spay and if this is a vet reading WAIT for the OFA results. I had a friend who was told her EM was Dysplasitic by her vet, and had him nuetered (he was a champion) when the OFA results came back from the reading it was Good/normal hips. Her vet had misread the xrays and not taken the breed hip conformation into account.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'm just done. I can't do Shepherds anymore. 12 years and 4 failed dogs. I've had it. Thousands of dollars and hours and hours and hours of work, and I have absolutely nothing to show for it.

Nothing.

The breeder has offered to replace her (she would stay here), but I really don't think I could take another failure or heartbreak, and we don't have the room for more beyond what our original plans were.

I can't even participate in sports with her anymore. She can't do anything but hold down a couch and maybe play some frisbee.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

It breaks my heart to hear such a diagnosis


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

These are her x rays. No way she'd pass with a fair. Not even close. My head is killing me from crying. She, of course, is running around the house chasing the cat,and I can hardly stand to look at her right now.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't know what to say, Xeph, except that I'm really sorry.

I do think the fact that she is not showing signs of discomfort is an absolutely great thing, and I don't think there's any reason why she can't compete in performance events. Maybe not hardcore agility, but she certainly doesn't have to be a couch potato. There are lots of dogs running out there who have orthopedic issues but if they are not presenting as lame or in pain.. the activity is good for them. I do know that's not what you hoped for at all, though.

You are not a failure in the least.. Strauss is not a failure, he adds so much to your quality of life in the work that he does. Justin, you pointed when he was an older dog, as a young handler, in a competitive breed. Mirada does not have to be a failure, either.. in just a few short months you have trained her in obedience to the point that she is sufficient enough for a Rally trial. Aside from one mishap with one bitch, which wasn't even your fault, you have done nothing wrong and have accomplished a lot. I know that isn't going to mean a lot to you right now but I just hate to hear you talk about yourself that way and want you to revisit this paragraph when you're feeling better.


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

* hugs *
I'm sorry.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I agree with MissMutt--you are, in now way, a failure. Mirada is one of the most gorgeous dogs I have ever seen. Regardless of this setback, she is amazing--and you have done that. You have made her what she is--but you have NOT caused any of the problems. That's genetics...nothing you have done.

Take that away and you have to see what a success you have been.

I know you have heard this a million times and you can't be okay yet, but, I am with MissMutt--when you are better, remember: you have not failed. You have succeeded--you just got some bad luck in the gene pool. 

Rada Ratface is awesome. 

And so are you.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

So sorry xeph.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I don't know what to say, Xeph, except that I'm really sorry.
> 
> I do think the fact that she is not showing signs of discomfort is an absolutely great thing, and* I don't think there's any reason why she can't compete in performance events. Maybe not hardcore agility, but she certainly doesn't have to be a couch potato. There are lots of dogs running out there who have orthopedic issues but if they are not presenting as lame or in pain.. the activity is good for them. I do know that's not what you hoped for at all, though.*
> 
> You are not a failure in the least.. Strauss is not a failure, he adds so much to your quality of life in the work that he does. Justin, you pointed when he was an older dog, as a young handler, in a competitive breed. Mirada does not have to be a failure, either.. in just a few short months you have trained her in obedience to the point that she is sufficient enough for a Rally trial. Aside from one mishap with one bitch, which wasn't even your fault, you have done nothing wrong and have accomplished a lot. I know that isn't going to mean a lot to you right now but I just hate to hear you talk about yourself that way and want you to revisit this paragraph when you're feeling better.


This is very true. When Dude was Dx'ed with all his knee/back problems, he was pulled from agility because of weaves/contacts. The vet told me do NOT let him just sit around, don't let him become a big fat couch potato. He NEEDS to move, and be exercised. A conditioned dysplastic dog is going to be far far better off than the dysplastic dog who's owner panics and keeps the dog on crate rest 90% of the time. 
The GSD world needs people like you. Don't give up entirely, the breed needs people who are passionate about the TOTAL dog, not just the pretty ones/ones with a lot of ribbons/lots of letters before and after their names...


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Aw. Xeph I'm sorry. 

I'm wondering though, have you got the OFA results back yet? I'm not an expert when it comes to reading xrays or anything but positioning can make a lot of difference and she is not perfectly positioned so it may not be as bad as you think. 
Take a look at this site:
http://leerburg.com/hipart.htm

The author discusses the positioning in several xrays taken of several different dogs and describes what to look for...look for the discussion of the "holes". 

I also wholeheartedly agree that a diagnosis of HD is not something to cause a dog to become a couchpotatoe...exercise and keeping the muscles strong is key to long term health and reduction of pain/pressure on the joints.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The x rays have not yet been sent in. I only received them a couple of hours ago. The positioning was EXCELLENT on the xray, so anything you see here that may look off is because the x ray doesn't actually fit in my scanner (apologies).

I appreciate the thoughts...I truly truly do. I just am really hurting right now. I have not had a single dog turn out, whether it was due to structure, intelligence, or health, and I am so incredibly drained.

I have wanted to have a litter ever since I got Strauss, and I'm 12 years into this breed....and I have nothing.

Please understand that when I say nothing, I do not mean that I am not proud of my current dogs. I really am. But none of them have turned out breedworthy. Thousands of dollars have come out of my pocket (and Jon's, since we're married now), and we have not had a dog that was finishable, we have not had a dog that is able to be bred. There is nothing for me to put the Marcato kennel name on, after countless hours of research and hard work.

I am having a very hard time accepting the fact that everything I have done has amounted to practically no progress in GSDs.

There are people in this breed that have been in for much less time than I have, and they've had 3 or 4 litters (or more). I realize that these people are not the best breeders, but it hurts me so deeply that I do EVERYTHING I can to make sure my dogs are healthy, and to make sure that they're breedworthy, with proper temperament, health, and structure....and there's just always something in the way.

I am not keen on bringing an adult bitch into the house (any adult dog really), but I also do not think I could handle (physically or emotionally) two puppies at one time, which means at least another year for another show puppy, if I get another at all.

Why is my $250 BYB dog the most sound dog I've had?


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Sorry, Xeph.



Xeph said:


> She can't do anything but hold down a couch and maybe play some frisbee.


This probably isn't what you want to hear, but frisbee would be about my last choice for a dog with orthopedic issues, and you know how much I love the sport. It is extremely hard on the joints, and dogs retire from the sport much younger than they do from agility. If it was me, I would limit her frisbee activities and get into something a little less high-impact. Agility would be one choice, but it is also relatively high impact. How about nosework?


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but.. if you haven't sent the x-rays in, then how do you know her rating? Is it what your vet told you? Or from your own experience? Or.. ?

Regardless, I'm very sorry about the situation.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Sorry, Xeph.
> 
> 
> 
> This probably isn't what you want to hear, but frisbee would be about my last choice for a dog with orthopedic issues, and you know how much I love the sport. It is extremely hard on the joints, and dogs retire from the sport much younger than they do from agility. If it was me, I would limit her frisbee activities and get into something a little less high-impact. Agility would be one choice, but it is also relatively high impact. How about nosework?


Running after a frisbee in a field is a bit different than the competitive stuff you do, though. I think that's the kind of frisbee Xeph was referring to.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If it was me, I would limit her frisbee activities and get into something a little less high-impact.


She doesn't do any jumping. Just chases and carries.



> How about nosework?


She's got an awful nose, lol. Half the time I wonder if she knows she HAS a nose.



> Is it what your vet told you?


Yes. The vet has years and years and years of experience reading the x rays (he's also the owner of this year's Westminster winner). This isn't a case of "It's just mild"....they're not good. They're being sent in Monday, but there's no way they're going to pass.

ETA: Agility is doable if I don't run her in jumpers a lot, and stick with NADAC, that offers things like tunnelers...no jumps at all.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear this.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm so sorry. 



MissMutt said:


> I do think the fact that she is not showing signs of discomfort is an absolutely great thing, and I don't think there's any reason why she can't compete in performance events. Maybe not hardcore agility, but she certainly doesn't have to be a couch potato. There are lots of dogs running out there who have orthopedic issues but if they are not presenting as lame or in pain.. the activity is good for them. I do know that's not what you hoped for at all, though.


Agreed completely.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think NADAC is a great option. Quite honestly if she's not in pain I could totally see you running her in AKC conservatively as well. Getting her on supplements now would be a good idea, too. I use NuPro for Marge.

If you don't mind my asking, why are you opposed to an adult bitch? Seems like it would eliminate questions of health and temperament pretty much right off the bat. I know it's a bit more complicated than just buying your own puppy, but if the opportunity presents itself it does seem like a good option for you...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If you don't mind my asking, why are you opposed to an adult bitch?


I don't want another Delphi. I don't want to have to try and UNDO everything that somebody else has done to a dog because they raised it their way. I don't want a dog that has been discouraged from tugging, playing fetch, and being pushy. I don't want another dog that has had no foundation in formal obedience, or a dog that isn't housebroken.

I have a hard time bonding to bitches as it is (I really prefer dogs to bitches), and feel that at least there's no immediate animosity towards a puppy because I can mold that puppy to be what I want.

I know that a dog with bad habits is no fault of the dog's....but it's hard to remember that when you're the one that has to do all the fixing, and I prefer to not have to fix it in the first place.

I would possibly consider a puppy that's 6 months old and has OFA prelims done.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I do remember how you struggled with her in that regard. And I would not want to live with that either. I guess I was saying that with the assumption that the bitch WOULDN'T be a dodo brain. Which is probably a dumb assumption because I'm sure if there was something like that readily out there you would have found it by now lol.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> The x rays have not yet been sent in. I only received them a couple of hours ago. The positioning was EXCELLENT on the xray, so anything you see here that may look off is because the x ray doesn't actually fit in my scanner (apologies).
> 
> I appreciate the thoughts...I truly truly do. I just am really hurting right now. I have not had a single dog turn out, whether it was due to structure, intelligence, or health, and I am so incredibly drained.
> 
> ...




Xeph, I know you are upset.... And I am not trying to stir the pot. The joints don't look GREAT.... But I also don't like the shot. You say positioning was perfect. But I right clicked the photo and got the image. As you look at the photo, both legs are canted to the right a bit. Not bad and I have seen much worse shots. But I would not call the positioning excellent. You would be amazed what a little off cant will make the hips look like. Look at the femur compared to the spine. The cant I am talking about is there. I just put a ruler on it. 

They don't look that bad to me... I am not a vet and I did not stay in a Holiday in Last night....

I am going to post up some comparisons.



Xeph said:


>



You dogs hip are above....

This is OFA's example of a good set of hips....









Here is their example of fair hips.









Now Mild.









Moderate


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Which is probably a dumb assumption because I'm sure if there was something like that readily out there you would have found it by now lol.


Not a dumb assumption. I just happen to be in love with a breed that is an absolute mess, and it hurts like hell. I have a dog here that is absolutely sound and stable in EVERY way, but he's got allergies, and structurally needs improvement (more than breeding would fix). I have another dog here that is absolutely BEAUTIFUL....and her hips are a mess.

And what hurts even more than that is that I KNOW people that would insist I breed this bitch. That would say "Just breed her to something with good hips!" like that would fix it. I cannot be that selfish. I am hurting so incredibly badly right now, and if I bred Mirada and a family ended up with a dysplastic puppy like her, I've hurt more people. And it's not right.

This is nobody's fault. I just have really crappy luck. My breeder is offering to do right by me, and I just need more time to process everything.

I'm looking for a Strauss in a Mirada body (with good hips obviously), and I'm not sure I'll ever find it. I'm HARD on temperament, and I'm HARD on health, and I'm HARD on intelligence. And the majority of people in AMerican lines are NOT, and what you end up with is dogs with beautiful side gait that can barely stand for their exam, but they win because they're a "better mover" (true story, Mirada was beaten by one of those).

My breeder may have older bitches that aren't mature adults that I can look at, and meet, and think about. I know I could not do another puppy right now...not with Mahler coming.

Jon has said that it would be fine if we looked for a new home for Mirada, as long as it was a good home for her, but I don't think she's going anywhere.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Who is Mahler?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

You dog has better sockets (more covering the ball than the OFA example for Mild) And WAY better than moderates....


With your permission, I would like to send a copy of your shots so a couple of friends that are real savvy with reading these. (As in they have both had over 100 dogs OFA's) to get their take.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Strauss's SD replacement. He's 7, and needs to head towards retirement. Mahler will be 2-3 by the time he's ready for work (if he makes it at all), which means Strauss will be 9-10 years old when he retires.

JB, you can go ahead and send if you want. I was trying to get the x rays illuminated more so they'd be better seen, but no luck yet. Even if they're not as bad as they seem...they're not passable.

I compared these x rays to her first ones, and they looked markedly worse.

Also, please realize that the issues pointed out to me in the consult may not be visible from what my scanner presents.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

I have 1000's of dollars in my champion bitch only to find out, after trying 4 times, she won't get pregnant so I kind of know how you feel...I am so sorry!:grouphug:


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Ahhh, okay. I just hadn't heard the name before. I don't blame you at all for not wanting to raise two puppies at once!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I just hadn't heard the name before.


He's not even born yet, thus, not talked about much at this point. His mother is due to whelp late this month.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Oh wow, so he's still baking in the oven.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Really sorry to hear this Xeph. I know how devastating this must be to both yourself and Jon. 

I am sort of with Johnny Bandit on this one though. The xrays do look slightly off or something. When my 1st GSD was diagnosed with HD and ED also- his hips looked alot different. My untrained eye could easily see that the joints weren't in their proper place. 

I am no expert though so this is just all from my experience with my GSDs. My 2nd GSD also had HD but only moderate and honestly I can't remember what her xrays looked like of if I even looked as I was devastated also. She wasn't for show nor breeding but I had high hopes for her in other areas and saw that slipping away. It's hard when dreams seem to keep getting torn apart for one reason or another. 

Again I am very sorry. I do hope you will reconsider your stance about not moving forward with 'our' breed. When I am back on my feet again this will be the 1st breed I once again will seek. No other breed is closer to my heart as well as my families'.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I am sort of with Johnny Bandit on this one though. The xrays do look slightly off or something.


The legs are tilted slightly, but her pelvis and everything was square. The femoral head isn't round though, like it's supposed to be. I'm going to see if I can find her original x rays for comparison. The change in the shape of the head is noticeable.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I'm so sorry Xeph. It's too hard to invest that much emotion, time, and money to be disappointed like that. <<<<hugs>>>>


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

All I can do is wait...but even if they're not as bad as he said...they're not passable. That's the reality of it. Not with the shape of the femoral head and the degeneration that's going on.

These are her original x rays


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I also don't like the positioning.

There is a reason why films are sent to OFA! DO NOT make decisions that are not reversible on what your VET grades these films as. I know posters here just want to help, but there is also a reason why none of us are on the board at OFA grading hip films. 

SEND THEM IN. Release the results to the data base, what ever they may be.

And while you may in fact end up not being able to breed her, there is no reason why you can't enjoy showing her if you like, and also participate in sports, or obedience, or pet therapy, etc. This is the SAME DOG as she was before you had these films done.

HD, even MODERATE HD, is not a death sentence for a dog. There are a lot of options available now to control pain and inflammation associated with HD in dogs, and MOST dogs can lead a very normal life, although they may slow down as they age, but then most dogs do.

Been in your shoes before too, and it never gets any easier.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> I also don't like the positioning.
> 
> There is a reason why films are sent to OFA! DO NOT make decisions that are not reversible on what your VET grades these films as. I know posters here just want to help, but there is also a reason why none of us are on the board at OFA grading hip films.
> 
> ...


THIS. Very wise words here. Listen to them.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> SEND THEM IN. Release the results to the data base, what ever they may be.


They WILL be going in, that's for sure, and the results WILL be released (the vet actually commended me for doing that...most people don't, as I'm sure you know).

She will still be shown in her futurity. Beyond that...I'm just very unsure. We don't really have the money to exhibit a dog that isn't breed worthy, and in a way, I wouldn't feel right about showing her, if that makes any sense at all.

We're looking into supplements for her, and will maintain her exercise to keep good muscle tone. I was wondering though, if this is perhaps why her muscle tone in the rear isn't as good as it could/should be?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I just saw this, I'm so sorry Xeph. (((hugs)))


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph....

I just spent an hour on the phone with Merlin's breeder. 30 years breeding. Her first comment was that she does not like the shot. But it is not the worst she has seen. She said for a GSD they just ain't that bad. She said the worst thing she sees is the shape and obvious wear on the ball on the dogs left side (the right side if you are looking at the shot.) She said the real issue as to whether the dog comes back a fair or mild lies in how much of the ball is in the socket. (you want at least 50% for a fair) She said flip a coin. She has seen hips that looked worse come back a fair. But anything can happen. 

Her next comment is that if it was her dog, she would most likely get another shot and see if it comes out better. 

Her other advise- 
1) Remember the xrays are evaluated by three people. It goes on the consensus...... Example... IF you say your dog is fair and one says mild, your dog is rated fair. 

2) If you do send in this shot and it comes back dysplastic. You CAN have the dog evaluated again by submitting a new form, shot and fee. You can have the dog evaluated as many times as you want. As long as you send in a new xray each time. 

3) it is not the end of the world.... These are not the hips of a dog that is going to be severely limited most likely.

4) OFA may tell you different..... But the evaluators know the breed.... She feels STRONGLY that they take breed into a consideration, at least to a point. She has no hard proof of this. But she works with two breeds. She feels that ACDs are rated harder than BCs. 


Also sent them to a friend that breeds and is a vet tech. Less experienced. Her comments were that she is not thrilled with the shot. But they are not THAT bad. ESPECIALLY for a GSD....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

These are prelim xrays, and thus, are only evaluated by one vet :-/

I do appreciate the supportive comments. Can't afford to take more x rays now...not with getting ready to move. Cost me $200 today, and we ONLY did hips and with no sedation.

I'm just feeling really conflicted, since the first time she went in for xrays, the vet said much the same thing, and she did indeed come back as "borderline".

He also pointed out to me the gaps in her hip between the socket and the femoral head, and the remodeling of the acetabelum on both hips.


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## 5 s corral (Dec 31, 2007)

:grouphug:I am so sorry about this news we are here for ya


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> These are prelim xrays, and thus, are only evaluated by one vet :-/
> 
> I do appreciate the supportive comments. Can't afford to take more x rays now...not with getting ready to move. Cost me $200 today, and we ONLY did hips and with no sedation.


So send them in.... If you don't like the result, when you get some more cash..... Re do them.

200 is pricey........I paid....
297.00 for Merlin for
new patient visit 15
basic exam 25
tattoo 25
ofa heart cert 20
ofa elbow xray 45
ofa hip xray 90
sedation 49
ofa patella cert 20
bio haz waste 3

and they knocked his nails way back while he was out.

total for all that was 297.00

And this is for a very respected vet when it comes to ofa. Folks fly in with their dogs. 


Xeph... Serously.... Relax... I don't think they are as bad as you think.....

And I cannot imagine getting a great shot without sedation.
How did you get the dog to hold still?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm really sorry for this set-back. Having high standards isn't an easy thing, sometimes. But in the end, the world is better for people who do. I'm not a vet, and not an orthopedic specialist for sure. I have seen some hip xrays, and hers look quite a bit like one dog I had who came back as mild. I retired him from obedience at 11 (working utility - he told me he didn't want to jump anymore - and then jumps were a lot higher) and he lived to 15. Towards the end he was toddle-y, but more senile than physically impaired. He never limped, never had a noticable lameness until he was very old. Hers really don't look severe to me. (but I am not an expert). She may not be your brood bitch, but you can still do things with her - obedience and rally come to mind. I have a friend who had a shepherd with really bad hips who did quite a lot in tracking. (It may not be that Mirada doesn't have a good nose - she may just not have really discovered how to use it yet). And if she does discover it, nosework would be great. There are dogs whose hips look like trash who really never look like there is anything wrong, and are not limited by it. Let your dog do what she tells you she can do. Have fun with her. My once-in-a-lifetime pedigree-to-die-for bitch that I was going to do everything with ended up growing a bad bite. So, I've pretty much done everything with her except conformation and breeding. We're both pretty happy with the situation though I cried some tears when she didn't turn out to be my everything dog.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Xeph said:


> we ONLY did hips and with no sedation.


I was told that x-rays without sedation aren't generally worth anything. Kit was fully sedated when we did hips, knees, elbows, shoulders, and back.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I was told that x-rays without sedation aren't generally worth anything. Kit was fully sedated when we did hips, knees, elbows, shoulders, and back.


Other than reading that OFA reccomends against it.... I have never heard of anyone trying it. Can't imagine getting the dog to hold still in position. 

It would never happen with an ACD... They don't make enough kevlar for vets and techs to even try it.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They don't make enough kevlar for vets and techs to even try it.


My thoughts exactly. The vet took one look at Kit and said "no way". Too wiggly.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> 200 is pricey


I don't disagree, and do not know why it was so much this time. It was under $100 last time. I cannot imagine how much more it would have cost me if they had had to sedate her.



> I was told that x-rays without sedation aren't generally worth anything.


I've heard arguments for and against it. I do not like to sedate my dogs.



> How did you get the dog to hold still?


The same way I get any of my dogs to do anything...training. All of my dogs roll over and can be manipulated any which way. Mirada doesn't give any fight at all.

And people travel from all around to go to the vet I went to for x rays as well.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> My thoughts exactly. The vet took one look at Kit and said "no way". Too wiggly.


I would not have allowed it with Merlin..... We had to sedate him for his BAER test..... He would not have been so much Wiggly as he would have hurt someone.



Xeph said:


> I don't disagree, and do not know why it was so much this time. It was under $100 last time. I cannot imagine how much more it would have cost me if they had had to sedate her.
> 
> 
> I've heard arguments for and against it. I do not like to sedate my dogs.
> ...



I am not knocking your vet Xeph... You have not mentioned his name. 

And training is one thing.... But in a clinical situation? Anyway..... 

As for cost to sedate. I have Merlin's file out.... Seems he usually costs about 50 bucks to sedate. And he takes the high end of the dosage for his weight.... He is hard to knock out.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Xeph, I just want to say that I think you're showing a great deal of integrity here. 

IMO the coverage of the femoral heads is not hideous, but there are some other concerning things on the rads. As you've noted, the femoral heads are slightly flattened instead of nice and round. There is also some gapping between the femoral head and the acetabulum on each side, and the rims of each acetabulum are showing some mild evidence of degenerative changes, especially as compared to the previous rads. And yes, if you feel her rear leg musculature isn't where you want it to be, HD could possibly contribute to that. 

Having said that, she feels how she feels, not how her rads look.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And training is one thing.... But in a clinical situation?


I guess I just expect my dogs to behave in a certain manner. Not knocking anybody...but if I can get my dogs' OFA rads done without sedation, that is my preference. I don't feel that knocking a dog out so their muscles and joints go unnaturally loose creates an accurate picture.



> Having said that, she feels how she feels, not how her rads look.


How she feels isn't currently a concern, as she's fine. She's running, jumping playing...hell, I got this crappy news, and what'd she do? Tore around the house chasing the cat and bouncing off the back of the couch.

It's more the death of a dream. With every dog, I feel the hole for the grave has been dug deeper, and we're hitting the point that I'm not sure I can pull my dream out of that hole.

Dr. Dove did the rads, BTW And Sheree Moses helped with said rads (surprised the heck out of me that she was there...didn't know she worked there).


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I agree that sedation is risky and costly. But for a dog with no allergies or health issues, I was willing to bet that Kit wouldn't react badly. She was still groggy 8 hours later (which was so odd for me to witness!), but otherwise no ill effects. To me, that risk was smaller than the risk I would be taking by doing high impact sports with a dog of unknown origins, unknown history, AND unknown structure. 

It never occurred to me that sedation might be necessary because a dog could injure the vet/techs without it. I was worried about Kit being so happy to see them that she wouldn't quit kissing them and settle down (the vet is like her favorite outing, right after the agility barn).

IMO, even if the dog is trained to hold still, any little twitch could throw things off. Xeph, if I were in your shoes, I think I'd save up and do the whole thing over again with full sedation. Yes, it's expensive, but the results might surprise you. And for what it's worth, $200 sounds reasonable to me. If I remember correctly, Kit's sedation wasn't too much more when added onto the x-rays...maybe like another $50?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Xeph said:


> It's more the death of a dream. With every dog, I feel the hole for the grave has been dug deeper, and we're hitting the point that I'm not sure I can pull my dream out of that hole.


I'm so sorry. I wish there was something to say or do to make you feel better. I hope that when your emotions aren't so fresh and raw that things won't seem so insurmountable.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I truly don't feel it's worth doing them again. There's more to xrays than just the coverage of the femoral head. Those gaps in her hip sockets are not going to change, and when there are already signs of degeneration, that's a big clue of "don't bother".

Even if you (general) don't like the positioning of the x rays (which are pretty darn amazing for a dog that's awake), tipping her slightly to the left wouldn't have changed anything. Those gaps are there. The degeneration is there. And that doesn't make for a sound, stable hip, unfortunately.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Xeph said:


> It's more the death of a dream. With every dog, I feel the hole for the grave has been dug deeper, and we're hitting the point that I'm not sure I can pull my dream out of that hole.


A little dramatic my dear.. not that I do not understand how you _FEEL._

You are 25 I think.. hardly ready to push up daisies. Opportunity will come along (tho it feels like death right now) and sometimes things happen for a reason (it does not feel like that either right now).

I am more than twice your age and giving this the same go thru Questa. It will not be until next year that she is X'rayd. If she is NG for breeding I still have a helluva dog and I figure things happen for a reason.. and at my age how far can I really take a line and develop it? I don't give up easy.

Remember.. when you get a puppy you buy a dream we have all said a puppy is a crap shoot.. and may not work out. We hedge our bets with good breeding. We hope. We try. We do all we can but a puppy is still a crap shoot. 

And.. no matter what happens you still have a good little dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> I also don't like the positioning.
> 
> There is a reason why films are sent to OFA! DO NOT make decisions that are not reversible on what your VET grades these films as. I know posters here just want to help, but there is also a reason why none of us are on the board at OFA grading hip films.
> 
> ...


Wvasko was best shepherd we ever owned and was mildly dysplastic, we loved him, he could be an alligator that you could leave a 3 yr old child on his back pulling on his ears and while he was giving a "full faced get away from us snarl" to a possible child pervert he would have his tail wagging at the child pulling his ears, he was a multi-task type dog. He was never bred just loved for his lifetime (10yrs) with us. He could have been bred for brains/temperament/courage (but wasn't) He had 2 niches in life as he was a great exhibition dog and helped business and a great home dog.

Oh, one last tidbit is that he could/did knock a good sized man down with a muzzle attack.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

FWIW, the majority of the hip and elbow films I have had done have been with NO sedation. If the vet is experienced and has a back cradle, it is no big deal.

Yes, it is only one vet to look at prelims, but it is KELLER, and I would appreciate his opinion. I would also FOR CERTAIN redo this bitch at 2 years of age. Between now and then I would keep her on good supplements, and keep her in hard physical condition, whatever you have to do to get that. Poor muscle tone is NO GOOD for developing dogs/puppies.

And Xeph, we ALL know that with ANY dog that has potential, there is always the chance that they won't pass hip or elbow films, or eye testing, or heart testing, or that when we breed them their progeny won't. That is why this has to be viewed as a HOBBY. 

Keep trying to remember that this exray DID NOT CHANGE YOUR DOG. As a breeder we often have to fight this phenomenon with puppy owners. They get a health test that is not perfect, and they feel their world is crashing down around them. NOTHING HAS CHANGED except what you MIGHT *(MIGHT!!!)* be able to do with her as far as breeding. 

NO ONE can show any dog under 2 years of age without health testing banking on the fact that they will be breedable. Even if she were OFA Excellent this is no guarantee you would ever get puppies from her if you DID breed her.

I understand your disappointment. Like I said, been there, done that, and will again. I have a puppy right now that if she continues to live up to her early potential will go down in history as a GREAT one. Am I sweating her health testing? YOU BET YOUR BOOTS I AM. Would I stop showing her if it were clear I could not breed her? NO WAY IN HELL!!

So, send in your films, get your bitch FIT and keep her that way, supplement her well, film her again at age 2, and whatever the results are, roll with it.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I know zilch about this kind of thing except to look at the OFA website when researching a breeder but I just wanted to offer good thoughts & support to you.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I guess I just expect my dogs to behave in a certain manner. Not knocking anybody...but if I can get my dogs' OFA rads done without sedation, that is my preference. I don't feel that knocking a dog out so their muscles and joints go unnaturally loose creates an accurate picture.
> 
> 
> How she feels isn't currently a concern, as she's fine. She's running, jumping playing...hell, I got this crappy news, and what'd she do? Tore around the house chasing the cat and bouncing off the back of the couch.
> ...



I have to say Xeph, this part puzzles me. Last I knew Jim and Sheree lived in Georgia. Outside of Atlanta. Sheree is hanging out in Virginia? I see them all the time. Usually talk to Jim. He hadn't mentioned moving. Did Sheree see the pics? I might see her this weekend and am sure I will see them within the next few weeks. If you want, I can pick her brains about them.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

I'm sorry Xeph. I know how you feel, as I had to scrap my entire breeding program from Tess after Cuinn had epilepsy and half of her second litter had bad patellas. Like you were saying about how people would still want you to breed her, people are still to this day astonished that I wouldn't breed Bibby, a group-placing, national specialty Winner's Bitch and Award of Merit winner with all of her clearances. Many would have turned a blind eye to the fact that she has 4 brothers with bad knees. But I couldn't take the risk of passing those knees on to more unsuspecting pet folks.

It sucked and I very nearly quit--but I didn't. Instead, I started looking outside of the US for what I wanted and I ended up with Viggo, who is one-in-a-million. He is everything I hoped for, and now I'm sitting next to a whelping box full of his grandkids. 

Lick your wounds--yes, again--and then get back to work. It sucks. Yes it does. I cried buckets. But I wouldn't have the best dog I've ever had the pleasure of owning if it hadn't happened. 

Hang in there.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Last I knew Jim and Sheree lived in Georgia.


Jim and Sheree are separated/divorced. I believe Sheree is in Virginia. She must be....otherwise I don't know why she'd be at Dr. Dove's clinic doing rads (she had no dogs there, she was working).

As of right now, Mirada will be shown in her Futurity in July. She is also entered in a show in a couple of weeks. One day of conformation, 3 days of Rally. I am hoping to come home with her RN. I need to teach a finish right in 2.5 weeks, which is doable. Doesn't have to be pretty, just doable.

I am not sure how I feel with keeping her intact and continuing to show her when I can't breed her. Aside from being unable to breed, I feel it's dishonest in a way, to try and finish an animal that isn't sound. I feel like one of those people that exhibits a dog that can barely make it through an examination, and shakes and shivers inside the ring and out. It's not right. I think it would be hypocritical for me to exhibit a dog that's not sound, and expect others to do the same.

The breeder and I are discussing the possibility of some older puppies she has (6-9 month range) that she could have prelim'd for me first. I'm going to talk to her more today, and think on it some.


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## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

I don't really have much to add except more hugs and happy good energy sent your way.  

You clearly work so incredibly hard and I know that everyone on here respects you for it. I think you have done some wonderful work so far and have achieved great things, so don't forget that - you are definitely absolutely successful! But since you still strive for success in the breeding realm of things, I hope for better luck for you in your future. I feel like your time is coming! It just has to. The world needs more people like you.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

What concerns me in all this is how quickly you are willing to dump Mirada without waiting until she is two and without doing the Rads over. If you want Excellent hips you best buy an adult dog with excellent hips. Puppies are a crap shoot. You yourself have said this. 

I almost get the impression that Mirada not getting her Ch in a few shows.. and maybe not being able to get her Ch is really the basis for all of this. IOW's it isn't going to be so easy. 

From reading this thread and many others written by the OP I get the impression that showing and breeding has taken precedence over the dog herself.. and now, without going any further, the dog may be getting replaced. If that is the case, then that is really too bad.

Since I know something of the costs of owning dogs and showing dogs and since Xeph herself has indicated funds are a concern (recalling the thread about heating the house last winter among others) I am wondering what will happen to Mirada (who has done not a single thing wrong). Keeping her? Selling her? Returning to the breeder??? 

If Mirada is not the dog of your dreams for whatever reason, that is OK. At this point taking a step back and waiting until you have saved the money to buy a Bitch may be your smartest option. Meanwhile, handling for other people may be something you should be doing (you have said you have had inquiries). I think it is you who has the Bitch you cannot afford is the one the beginner breeder needs to buy?

At 25 waiting even 5 years (tho I doubt it would be that long if you are diligent in saving money) will not cost you so much time that it would end your chances of creating your own lines. 

Meanwhile, wait until Mirada is a full two years old, sedate her and re-Xray her and in the mean time see how she shows (unless you believe she simply is not show material).


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> What concerns me in all this is how quickly you are willing to dump Mirada without waiting until she is two and without doing the Rads over


What are people not understanding about this? Her hips are degenerating. They are NOT going to improve. There are GAPS between the socket and the joint. That is not repairable (except by surgery...total hip replacements). Will she be re xrayed at two? Probably. Will she pass OFA? No. She's being started on supplements.



> If you want Excellent hips you best buy an adult dog with excellent hips.


I don't need excellent hips. I need hips that will PASS.



> From reading this thread and many others written by the OP I get the impression that showing and breeding has taken precedence over the dog herself


Really!? SERIOUSLY!? What exactly is it that you want me to do!?



> I am wondering what will happen to Mirada (who has done not a single thing wrong). Keeping her? Selling her? Returning to the breeder???


Have you not been reading? She's not going anywhere. But thanks for trying to make me out as though I were some sort of villain if I considered it at all.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Xeph said:


> What are people not understanding about this? Her hips are degenerating. They are NOT going to improve. There are GAPS between the socket and the joint. That is not repairable (except by surgery...total hip replacements). Will she be re xrayed at two? Probably. Will she pass OFA? No. She's being started on supplements.
> 
> I don't need excellent hips. I need hips that will PASS.


And what you have been told by some VERY knowledgeable people on this thread is you need to REDO THE RADS, get Better positioning and send them when she is two. 

YOU are NOT the OFA Vets. YOU seem to be ready to QUIT on YOUR DOG.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Xeph said:


> *Jon has said that it would be fine if we looked for a new home for Mirada, as long as it was a good home for her, but I don't think she's going anywhere*.



Xeph has already said pretty plainly that chances are Mogwai will be staying with her, perhaps some need to read the thread a bit better. I have also seen nothing in this thread that she is going to dump Mirada in favor of a new dog, in fact I have seen the exact opposite of that trepidation about getting a new puppy and trying to figure out a way where a new dog can enter the picture with Mogwai staying.

I'd also like to say I don't see how Xeph is in anyway ready to quit on Mirada, I don't know if it was discussed in this thread but she has been talking about what sports she can still do with Mirada. Personally I commend her for not wanting to breed a dog with bad hips, doesn't mean she's going to throw her out the door or put her in a crate to forget about her.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> I also don't like the positioning.
> 
> There is a reason why films are sent to OFA! DO NOT make decisions that are not reversible on what your VET grades these films as. I know posters here just want to help, but there is also a reason why none of us are on the board at OFA grading hip films.
> 
> ...


THIS THIS THIS! Please read this story, it shows why you do NOT take action until the OFA rules on the hips. The woman writing this also had the dogs as the foundation stock of HER breeding program. Both her girls (sisters from the same litter) ended up with PRA, the male was dianosed as SEVERE HD and came back OFA good.

"The Day My World Stood Still",


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> YOU are NOT the OFA Vets. YOU seem to be ready to QUIT on YOUR DOG.


And YOU seem to be ready to JUDGE anything that isn't the way you'd do it.

Maybe I'll get lucky and she'll only be "mild", but this vet is not an idiot. He exhibits and breeds dogs himself. He's got the freaking Westminster BIS winner for crying out loud! Do you think he DOESN'T know how to read a radiograph!? Do you really think that him pointing out calcification, and remodeling, and degeneration of her hip joints is some sort of weird fluke!?

I'm holding off on altering her. She's going to her Futurity in July, and thus needs to remain intact. She's entered in a show at the end of this month, and thus, is remaining intact. She's being cared for the way she always was, with the addition of supplements.

And I REALLY take issue with you using the word "dump" in reference to my dog. She's not being DUMPED on anybody! The fact that her hips came back BORDERLINE the first time I did x rays is telling (which is what the VET said they'd likely come back as...shock)! The fact that I had them REDONE and the vet says DYSPLASTIC leads me to believe she's probably going to come back as dysplastic! If he was right the first time, and her rads have gotten WORSE since the first films, please tell me how it's logical to assume she's going to pass. Please. I'd LOVE to hear it.

Even if she DOES pass by some ridiculous miracle, do you really think it's ok to breed those hips? REALLY!?

I am doing NO wrong by Mirada. There are PLENTY of people out there in the GSD world that would breed her anyway. "OFA is just a tool! Just breed her to something with better hips!" There are PLENTY of people that would just euthanize her. And PLENTY of people that would just give her away, with no thought to where she went!

And you have the GALL to say that I'm "willing to dump" her!?

I'm working on bending over backwards to be SURE she can stay, because I don't want her to go anywhere! But you know, even if she DID go somewhere, it would be to a FANTASTIC home, where we would be able to keep an eye on her, and maybe help a junior break into showing. I wouldn't just send her off with any yahoo that wanted her, and she would CERTAINLY be spayed first!

And do you have any idea of the number of breeders that have altered and sold dogs because they weren't right for their breeding programs? TONS! And honestly, maybe I won't be able to be a breeder, because from a business stand point, Mirada needs to go, to make room for a dog that DOES show promise for being finished and being breed worthy.

I do not want her to go ANYWHERE! I'm not sure I want to take on another dog because I don't want to go through this again, and because I don't want her to go anywhere.

Shame on me.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> THIS THIS THIS! Please read this story, it shows why you do NOT take action until the OFA rules on the hips. The woman writing this also had the dogs as the foundation stock of HER breeding program. Both her girls (sisters from the same litter) ended up with PRA, the male was dianosed as SEVERE HD and came back OFA good.
> 
> "The Day My World Stood Still",


As to those of you accusing Xeph of giving up or wanting to 'dump' Mirada, just STOP! I understand how devastated she is and why she feels as she does. Mirada won't be going ANYWHERE (unless she comes to live with me ) and I think once Xeph has time to step back and look at things she may change her mind or at least wait for finals to spay. Prodding her and accusing her will only make the situation worse and I for one do not want to see a valuable member chased from this board. Right now we need positive thoughts for owner and pup!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I think once Xeph has time to step back and look at things she may change her mind or at least wait for finals to spay.


That's what I was trying to convey. I am STILL upset. Very. I was going to pull her entries from the show I just entered. I decided not to.

She WILL get final xrays at 2, but what I'm trying to tell everybody, is that since her hips got WORSE since her first rads, it is illogical to think they will improve. They are not going to be passable. That is reality. I seem to have accepted it, but the people that DON'T own her don't seem to want to.

Does it seem like maybe I don't care about how she is? Maybe. But here's the thing. Like I said yesterday, SHE is FINE. SHE is completely normal in activity level. She's running around playing, and spent most of last evening chasing the cat 'round the house and literally bouncing off the couch! She is in no pain. We are still training for rally and obedience. If it's ok for her, we'll continue herding.

But I have put a lot of money into her. And a lot of time. And my heart and soul. And it should be ok for me to be upset at losing my "investment". If I didn't care about Mirada, I'd ship her back off to her breeder and be done with it, and that is NOT what is happening.

Jon loves her, and I love her, and she is part of our family. But realistically, if I kept EVERY dog that ended up this way, that would be the end of everything. That goes for all breeders.

She'll go on supplements for her hips, and we'll continue doing what we're doing in performance. I may show in her in conformation sparingly...don't know yet. I know she won't be spayed before January 24th, but I also know that she will never be bred either, which is why she was bought in the first place.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh Xeph, I understand that and that's why I posted the story above, granted it's Mastiffs but as you can see many have gone through this (and worse, could you imagine having a dog that came back with PRA much less TWO). I just don't want you to lose all hope for her and I'm very glad to hear you're continuing to show and work her despite the potential diagnosis.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Nah...if we got rid of her, the cat would harass me instead xD

And who would try to steal my pizza?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> As to those of you accusing Xeph of giving up or wanting to 'dump' Mirada, just STOP!


+1. Some of the comments here are getting out of line.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Nah...if we got rid of her, the cat would harass me instead xD
> 
> And who would try to steal my pizza?


Ha! 

Again, all I have to add is that I commend you for keeping the intergrity of the breed the forefront.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I commend you for keeping the intergrity of the breed the forefront.


I appreciate that.

Regardless of whether Mirada herself stays or goes, if my dream is at all attainable, this WILL happen again some day....and depending on circumstances, that dog will need to find a new home. If the dog finds a good home, THAT is what matters. It is BECAUSE of caring about the dog, and the breed, that these things (rehoming) happen.

It's pretty freaking selfish of me to keep Mogwai as it is. She could probably be very very happy with an older Juniors, exhibiting in the juniors ring and doing light performance. But it is not just Jon that doesn't want to give her up. I don't want to give her up either. Am I as bonded to her as I am to Strauss? No. But I'll never bond with another dog like I have with Strauss.

Doesn't mean I don't care. 

And unlike Strauss, she does not have a real job (although she may be turning into my "around the house" service dog). If I bring another show bitch, she will most likely end up taking a back seat, because she will not be able to do the things that the new bitch will. That is not fair.

I am CONSTANTLY thinking about what is best for my dogs, and my breed, and people have NO idea how I agonize over many of the decisions I make.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

Xeph, I am very sorry to hear about Mirada. What you do from here on out in regards to redoing the xrays and resending them is up to you. I just wanted to tell you that everything you have done up to this point has not been a loss. Mirada is an amazing bitch that you raised. I know, for myself, I have learned very valuable lessons from you. 

1) Dedicate yourself to what you love and while you won't get rich you will be happy. 
2) Don't be swayed by others, stay true to your values 
3) Make jokes

I'm sure you have heard it before, but my favorite quote I learned from the "dog world" goes, "You get the dogs you need, not the dogs you want". 
So my suggestion would be to make a joke, do what you feel is right, and continue with your goals knowing you are doing your best.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Things Mirada has done today:
Been chased by the cat
Got her head stuck in the couch
Played frisbee
Jumped over Strauss to steal said frisbee
Walked up to me, put her head on my arm, and stared at me, for no particular reason
Ran around the house flailing her pink tug around...she hit me...that hurt
Rolled on her back and flailed some more with said tug
Got stuck under the couch

If nothing else, she makes us laugh 

I'm visiting home at the beginning of June and will stop at the breeders to look at some older bitches, and to get pictures of various dogs (including Mirada's siblings). Mirada will come along, so the breeder can see her, and Mirada will return to PA with me as well (so she is not going to be left behind).


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

<3 

message too short, is NOT. <3


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The thing is you said you could not stand to look at Mirada


Which was true yesterday. Because it HURT to look at her and think of EVERYTHING I've done with her over the last year. It has nothing to do with hating the dog, or being mad at the dog, or the breeder, or or or.

I mean, it was meant in the SAME way as when my brother died, and I couldn't stand to look at his pictures.

The DOG is not the problem (per se). The disease is.

And when the vet told me what her results were likely to be, even though Mirada didn't change...at the same time she did. She jumped up on me, and I was looking at her while the vet said "It doesn't make her any less of a good dog. She's just not a breeding dog."

And that's a problem for me.

I always keep in mind the function that I bought the dog for. Hell, if Mahler doesn't turn out, he will HAVE to go back to Molly, because that's not even optional. I love my dogs very very much, and have gone through hell and back with each I've had, but it is very hard when you build and build and build towards this grand finale of fireworks, and the fuse has hit the ignition powder....and you discover you had a dud.

I really wish I knew how to write about this without making it sound like I hate Mirada, because I don't. But I don't know how to make people understand how absolutely gutted I am either.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> The thing is you said you could not stand to look at Mirada..


Got to be 100% honest (many of us get along great here but if we dont express how we feel under moderator guidelines then there is no point being here) ,ive followed this thread and i noticed that comment on the 1st page of the thread. I dont show and have no interest in doing so and so cannot comprehend not being able to look at my dogs because there was something wrong with them health wise,it would make me want to love them even more than i already do.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I appreciate that.
> 
> Regardless of whether Mirada herself stays or goes, if my dream is at all attainable, this WILL happen again some day....and depending on circumstances, that dog will need to find a new home. If the dog finds a good home, THAT is what matters. It is BECAUSE of caring about the dog, and the breed, that these things (rehoming) happen.
> 
> ...


Xeph, you don't owe anyone an explanation or an apology. It's understandable that your heart is broken right now. Take a deep breath and take it one day at a time. The thing is, looking at the long range picture, and not just the dog before you is one tough job. Too tough for me. I tried my hand at breeding, and bred some dogs with Chs, and other titles. I bred two Nationals HIT winners. But, I found that the dog before me was more important to me than the big picture. And because I've known what that choice is like, I respect anyone with the guts to make it intelligently and with integrity - in either direction. And it doesn't help that when people do face the prospect of rehoming a dog, they get the "dumped" card played on them. You're doing fine. And whether Mirada has a great home with you or a great home with someone else, I'm sure it will be a great home.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Got to be 100% honest (many of us get along great here but if we dont express how we feel under moderator guidelines then there is no point being here) ,ive followed this thread and i noticed that comment on the 1st page of the thread. I dont show and have no interest in doing so and so cannot comprehend not being able to look at my dogs because there was something wrong with them health wise,it would make me want to love them even more than i already do.


Agree with above, after reading the 1st post and some others is why I replied about the Wvasko dog cause he did not know he had mildly dysplastic hips and he had a whole bunch of other dog stuff to offer to his human family other than hips.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> But, I found that the dog before me was more important to me than the big picture. And because I've known what that choice is like, I respect anyone with the guts to make it intelligently and with integrity - in either direction.


Amen! There is no right or wrong here in regards to keeping her or rehoming her. Summer is much like Mirada in that she was supposed to be a big part of a breeding program and it just didn't pan out. That's the whole reason I have her.

Sometimes it's less selfish to not keep the dog that doesn't fit in your program. Not saying that is or isn't the case, but it's sometimes very true. Either way, Rada will have an awesome home, I'm sure. 

This is something I dread if I ever do breed. I don't think I could ever give one up, which is probably why I won't breed. But if you do, sometimes it's a decision you have to make. If you don't think breeders agonize over these things then I don't know what to tell you...


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

I think I am the only one who took the comment as I think it was intended. I didn't assume she couldn't look at Mirada because she was disappointed in her, but rather that it reminded her of a sad situation.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If you don't think breeders agonize over these things then I don't know what to tell you...


Quoted for super truth.



> I didn't assume she couldn't look at Mirada because she was disappointed in her, but rather that it reminded her of a sad situation.


Again, appreciated. I'm not disappointed with what the dog has done, and learned. I'm disappointed in her diagnosis, and what it means for all our plans (they can no longer be completed). She's a fabulous obedience dog, great on sheep, good drive, and a hard and happy worker. And unfortunately that is where it has ended.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Agree with above, after reading the 1st post and some others is why I replied about the Wvasko dog cause he did not know he had mildly dysplastic hips and he had a whole bunch of other dog stuff to offer to his human family other than hips.


It's not the dog, it's the dream.

I'll be honest, I heard Mia's right knee pop the other day. I FLIPPED and am now wanting to get her knees x-rayed asap. I haven't seen any other signs of PL but now I'm worried. I was so worried the first day, I felt sick. Trust me, it's simply not possible to love a dog more than I love Mia. That hasn't changed. It has NOTHING to do with her (and she's probably fine anyways). It's not losing HER, it's losing the plans and the dreams. Maybe not important for some, but it would be for me. 

It sucks when you have a million plans for a dog and then something happens to make it not possible. Disappointed wouldn't even cover it for me and she's not even a breeding prospect.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Well I missed a lot by not venturing out of my subscribed threads. Now I have to scrap my whole Jonas breeding program. 

Lance will just have to wait a while longer for his Shepherd puppy.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Xeph said:


> Quoted for super truth.


I have heard so many people berate breeders for rehoming dogs that don't work out. I won't go into the details of why Summer was rehomed to me (it's a very very personal story that's not mine to share), but I will say that I have never seen someone agonize over a dog like her breeder did. She loved Summer incredibly but at the same time Summer was a very painful reminder of some things. In those situations it's just not fair to keep the dog imo. In the end it was much better for Summer AND the breeder to rehome her.

That is so incredibly different from 'giving up on your dog' or 'dumping her'.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It's not the dog, it's the dream.


THIS! This is what I've been trying to say.



> That is so incredibly different from 'giving up on your dog' or 'dumping her'.


Very much so.

And quite seriously, I have an example of an animal we did a lot for that wasn't even OURS at the time....and that's Barrett. Barrett is a $1000 stray. You know what hopes and dreams I had for him? Surviving. And he did. And he was supposed to find a new home.

I searched and searched and searched for one for him, and NOBODY wanted him. And so he stayed (and I am glad of that). We are not actively looking for a home for Mirada, but if the right one came (and there are SO many stipulations as to what the "right home" is), we would let her go, with many tears, and many what ifs. But it comes down to what is best for her. She will go NOWHERE if the best situation for her is with us, and right now, that's the best situation for her.

She is happy right now, pain free, and her usual silly self. I'm hoping she stays that way for many more years.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

grab said:


> I think I am the only one who took the comment as I think it was intended. I didn't assume she couldn't look at Mirada because she was disappointed in her, but rather that it reminded her of a sad situation.


No you're not, but then I was also chatting with Jackie via FB in thE DF room. I knew she was just heartbroken by the situation.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

grab said:


> I think I am the only one who took the comment as I think it was intended. I didn't assume she couldn't look at Mirada because she was disappointed in her, but rather that it reminded her of a sad situation.


I understood too. Then again, I've probably known Xeph longer than anyone else on the forum. lol 



> And quite seriously, I have an example of an animal we did a lot for that wasn't even OURS at the time....and that's Barrett. Barrett is a $1000 stray. You know what hopes and dreams I had for him? Surviving. And he did. And he was supposed to find a new home.
> 
> I searched and searched and searched for one for him, and NOBODY wanted him. And so he stayed (and I am glad of that).


Sounds way too much like Ada.  Though I am still hoping for a home for her once her HW treatment is done...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Then again, I've probably known Xeph longer than anyone else on the forum. lol


It is crazy scary to realize how old we were when we first started talking.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Wait, Elana, are you really saying you were confused about Xeph's reaction? Did you REALLY think Xeph was just going to dump Mirada because she didn't pan out? Obviously this is an emotional thread. You wouldn't be upset and crushed is Questa didn't turn out for breeding? I believe you've said there are things you are doing with Questa that you aren't doing with Atka because Atka is a spay and not a breeding prospect. If Questa's hips come back dyspasic, you won't be upset that your plans and dreams are delayed, or even dashed forever? You know, since you're old and zen and waiting to die and we're young so we can't get upset about setbacks because we still have time. And yes, that's basically money wasted on a dog that can't fulfill the function they were bought for.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> THIS! This is what I've been trying to say.
> 
> 
> Very much so.
> ...


Xeph and others know this, but I've considered that with Auz as well. If a family (preferably with children, because Auz ADORES children) would come along and immediately fall in love, I would honestly question myself keeping him here and not at least considering letting him go to a family that would cherish him. I know Auz is happy, and I know Auz loves me as I love him. However, he has, in a sense, taken a back seat to Tag, who is showing 10 times the potential for certain things than Auz ever did. It doesn't mean Auz is a bad dog, and isn't loved as much as the others. This would (obviously) be something the breeder would be involved in (if it ever would happen), but the thought has crossed my mind more than once. Here, Auz is a house pet. I think he would love the chance to be a childs friend, who has all the time in the world to play ball with him, run with him, be his best friend...I don't have all the time in the world, and I sometimes wonder if he would truly be happiest with a family who could dote on him as the only dog. He certainly deserves what's best for _him_. Deciding what's best for a dog that can't make the cut you had hoped for carries a lot of heartache and "what ifs". But...like Xeph, it's not a situation of "unloading" the dog, or "dumping" the dog or "hating" the dog. We had a lab years ago that just didn't fit with our family. Best thing in the world we ever did for that dog was find a home who ADORED him and all his silly labbish antics. The dog lived to a very ripe old age as a happy, adored family pet by the parents and their 3 boys. For Jimmy (the lab), that WAS the best decision for him.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

No. I would not be upset if Questa did not pan out as a breeding animal. She is more important to me than that. They are still making dogs. If she does not pan out when I am ready for the next dog I will probably be able to find one.. and a good one at that. 

If life hands you lemons, make lemonade. Don't forget the sugar. 

Now y'all go on over to FB and discuss it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> She is more important to me than that.


And Mirada's not that important to me?

I find it hard to believe that you've bought a dog with the future intention of breeding, and would not be upset if she didn't pan out. We're going to have to agree to disagree, because for somebody with so much experience, you really just don't seem to understand (and please, don't pull the age card again, because I'm really over that).


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Now, as far as a good breeder rehoming a dog that doesn't fit into the program for whatever reason, I have NO problem wit it. It gives the animal a chance to be loved in a family that will give one on one attention it wouldn't otherwise get and to be loved and valued. I myself adopted a retired show cat, he was a much lived member of my family and had a much better life with me than he would have crated to keep him away from the current breeding Tom any kittens. Frankly if I had the time and space I'd seriously consider a dog or bitch like Mirada for my next pet.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I plan on getting most of my pets retired from breeding programs. Maybe they haven't had a ton of work done with them, but if they were shown they probably have been socialized all the way to outer space and back and haven't been ruined by someone who has no idea what they're doing. Marsh is a retired show dog, and now I get to dive right into the fun stuff without having to wait for the dog to grow up.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Elana55 said:


> Now y'all go on over to FB and discuss it.


???

I don't think I've actually really ever talked to Jackie on FB.

Anywho, I think it's completely NORMAL to be disappointed. The way I see it is Xeph can't ever do something right to some people around here. I really can't fathom that people are actually criticizing her for not breeding a dog with bad hips. 

I keep trying to figure out what I'm missing and I just can't find it. 

It's a sucky diagnosis. She's disappointed and upset. She's taking good care of Mirada and putting the breed first by choosing to be responsible about breeding decisions. 

What am I missing?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> ???
> 
> I don't think I've actually really ever talked to Jackie on FB.
> 
> ...


Whatever you're missing, I'm missing it as well. I don't understand how Xeph was supposed to create this thread singing "yay! Mirada has HD! No puppies for her!" If you have hopes for a dog, and those hopes don't pan out, it's disappointing. Period. If I would post that Tag has two torn ACLs and a broken leg and can't do agility, hell yes I would be extremely disappointed and sad. Wouldn't keep me from loving him, though. I haven't seen Xeph say that she hates Mirada or loves her any less.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I don't breed--nor do I intend to, but I also know that it is human nature to be disappointed when something you have worked so hard for doesn't pan out. (I mean, grown men cry when they lose the Superbowl because they are disappointed). 

Elana--I get what you are saying, and when health issues arose in all my dogs (Gizmo had seizures, Loki went blind, and Gracie has SA), I love(d) them as I did before and kept moving. But my situation is different--I had no intention of breeding.

Xeph has the right to be disappointed--her dream did not pan out. I don't think any of us have the right to tell her what she should do, how she should do it or how she should feel. We aren't her. All we can offer is support in whatever decision she makes.

If the issue is that it was discussed on the DF FB page (the page that has been made public on this forum, I think, so it isn't a secret). Xeph posted this yesterday and then some of us were chatting about it with her on FB--as any friends would when someone gets bad news, I guess. 

We discussed the situation, offered our support and that was it. Nothing sneaky...just friends supporting each other in a time when support was needed.

That's how I see it anyway. *shrugs*


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah Elana, I saw her post on here and jumped over to FB because I CARED that one of our members was devastated. It wouldn't have mattered who the member was if I knew how to contact them and have a conversation immediately I will do so. I'm sorry you seem to take offense to that. Our conversation was short as I had to leave for work.


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## cjtabares (Apr 26, 2011)

Sorry to hear this. 

I am new to dog owning but from what I have read I can't see if being possible to be a great breeder and keep every dog that does not end up meet the breeders standards. So finding the dog another home seems, to me, like it could be the best choice for breeder and dog in many situations like this one.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Xeph said:


> The x rays have not yet been sent in. I only received them a couple of hours ago. The positioning was EXCELLENT on the xray, so anything you see here that may look off is because the x ray doesn't actually fit in my scanner (apologies).
> 
> I appreciate the thoughts...I truly truly do. I just am really hurting right now. I have not had a single dog turn out, whether it was due to structure, intelligence, or health, and I am so incredibly drained.
> 
> ...


I have the same thing lol, my $100 dollar BYB ACD is the soundest dog I have ever had & I basically did everything wrong as far as she is concerned lol, I got her at 6 wks use traditional methods on her etc...


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

Just wanted to pop in and say that I'm really sorry Xeph. I fully believe that you'll be able to make your dream come true in regards to breeding. If it can't be with Mirada, it will be with another dog. After all the difficultly you've had reaching it, it will just make your eventual success all the sweeter in the end. 

I know how much you'll agonize over any decision regarding Mirada's future. I trust that you'll make the best decision for HER and for your family. I have no doubts about it. Not a single one. I know that right now your not just worried about the future of your program but about HER future, HER quality of life and HER happiness. I know you love her.

So, like I said, I just wanted to pop in and give you whatever support I could.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Mdawn said:


> Just wanted to pop in and say that I'm really sorry Xeph. I fully believe that you'll be able to make your dream come true in regards to breeding. If it can't be with Mirada, it will be with another dog. After all the difficultly you've had reaching it, it will just make your eventual success all the sweeter in the end.
> 
> I know how much you'll agonize over any decision regarding Mirada's future. I trust that you'll make the best decision for HER and for your family. I have no doubts about it. Not a single one. I know that right now your not just worried about the future of your program but about HER future, HER quality of life and HER happiness. I know you love her.
> 
> So, like I said, I just wanted to pop in and give you whatever support I could.


Mdawn said it perfectly - if I came up with something on my own, I'd essentially be copying her, so yeah


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have debated posting again.....

But.... I have some comments...... These comments are not made to be critical. They are because I actually care. Young people Under 30 are the future of well bred dogs. I believe that and preach that every where I go and to everyone I can. You have been to conformation and performance events. The sport is getting older and older every year. There are tons of older folks, a bunch of middle aged folks like myself, but your age group is lacking. I don't know you personally but anyone that would like to see well bred dog sports continue needs to have a vested interest in your success. 

First of all..... Xeph.... I know you were/ae upset and came here for some support. You got some pretty good opinions and advice from some pretty experienced people. Most of which have probably gone through the same thing. All of us that have been in performance/conformation/well bred dogs a long time have been in your shoes. Most of us more than once. And if this is the worst letdown you have, count yourself lucky. And... If you stay in this game, it will not be your last. 
A couple of points here....

1) almost every experienced person (plus the people outside this forum that I showed the xrays to, said it was not a great shot. It was everyone's first comment. Why do you think that is? We are not vets and we are not OFA. But collectively how many hip shots have we as a group looked at? 

2) No sedation - There is a reason that OFA HIGHLY reccomends sedation. There is a reason that some vets that are well known for doing OFA stuff will REFUSE to do an OFA shot without sedation. It is not about the dog being compliant and laying there because you want it to. It is about the dog being relaxed(not likely on a table) and not twitching, tensing, etc at some noise, movement, etc. 


Taking the above into consideration, we really don't know what we have. Do I think she has great hips? No. Do I think they are all as bad as you feel? No probably not. They may be. But we really don't know. 

All that being said, you go back to what your vet that took the shot said over and over again. You mention is Westminster BIS... etc. And he may be the most credentialed vet out there. But he is still one guy..... And listening to the opinion of ONE expert, no matter how credentialed, can get you in trouble and send you directions you don't want to go.

Remember in late January I posted about Merlin's partial tear of his CCL? My vet who is a GREAT diagnostician, experienced, more of a surgeon than a general practitioner, told me to forget about rehabbing the dog. That he would not come back and we might as well go ahead and do surgery. He wanted me to go ahead and schedule it. 

I didn't. I was bummed out. This was not genetic. But an injury..... Still I was bummed. This is the dog I have been looking for most of my life. And I am only going to have a couple of dogs at a time. And only one intact male at a time. My wife is too soft and caring for me to chance two intact males in the house. I am 43 and not in great health. I love high drive dogs and ACDs especially. How many more do I have in me? If Merlin lives to be 14 or so, I will be 53 before I got another shot at THE dog. Another 14 years. And I am 67. Am I going to be able to handle a drivey ACD at 67? Am I even going to be around? I LOVE Merlin with all my heart. And NO MATTER WHAT, I will love him and care for him until his time is done. But as you and others have said, it is losing the dream that hurts. And as I said above, time is not on my side.......
So did I schedule the surgey? NOPE... I came home bummed out. I poured a tall glass of rum with just enough coke to darken it a bit and sulked in front of the computer. Reading everything and shooting off emails until I had too many glasses of rum to see straight. Next morning I got up and Merlin was putting full weight on his bad leg.... So I leash walked him. No limp. Went to work. Came home and made more calls. I decided to do something else. I crated rested that dog for SIX weeks. If you want to know the meaning of HELL? Try crate resting an adult male ACD for six weeks. I didn't mess with him, didn't have anyone else look at him. At the end of the six weeks, I took him to another vet. Had all the same tests done. The vet saw a little something, but the joint was tight and stable. He was putting equal weight on both rear legs. So I brought him out for some light work. Slow treadmill. Light play with the other dog, etc. Still looked good after two weeks. So I took him to another vet. Everything done again. He really couldn't see anything and the joint was strong and stable. So I brought him back some more. Two weeks later... Another vet. Same thing. Including two friends that are vets, five vets have gone over the dog, and mutiple xrays, ultrasounds, and mris. Plus about 2500 bucks not including what my insurance covered. He may rip his knee apart tomorrow. But I don't think he will. He strong and fast. No sign of any trouble. Did he have a tear. Yea I think he did. Probably a slight tear and the rest took care of it. 

I still think my first vet is a great vet and I have no plans to change. But what if I had listened to him and only him? 

And then there is this..... You have made comments about others saying that OFA scores are only tools and you would never breed your dog. Well OFA scores ARE only tools and only as good as the breeder that uses them....

A couple of points here.....
1) I think your dogs hips need to be investigated more. 

2) hips are a problem in GSDs.... And there are a lot worse out there. But...I understand not wanting to produce iffy hips.

3) I don't know your dog and only have casual experience with the standard. 

Chances are you probably don't want to be breeding a dog with iffy hips..... But there is no such thing as a perfect dog. And you always have to breed to the complete dog.

If she is a decent or average dog with iffy hips, it should never even be considered. 

But what if she is rock solid, the cats meow, God's gift the breed and perfect in every other way. Great head, great chest, angles, etc temperament to die for? But turns out she is fair on one hip and mild on the other? I mean what if she is the GREATEST GSD BITCH the world has seen in the last 50 years. But fair/mild? Is that still a NEVER situation? Or is that a lets sit down and take a look at this situation? I don't think that would be a situation you have the experience to make a decision on. ( I certainly don't) But I do know that hips are funny thing....
There are great breeders out there that won't breed an excellent to an excellent. In some breeds there is data suggesting the e to e breedings tend to produce a higher number of dysplastic dogs than any other combo.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> You know, since you're old and zen and waiting to die and we're young so we can't get upset about setbacks because we still have time.


Wow, I read this last night and was gonna reply but it was 9:00 and time for this senior to go to bed. Of course this morning I totally forgot about it because I had to hit the recliner to continue my personal waiting to die program. I suppose the good news is the older you are the shorter the wait.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> > You know, since you're old and zen and waiting to die and we're young so we can't get upset about setbacks because we still have time.
> 
> 
> Wow, I read this last night and was gonna reply but it was 9:00 and time for this senior to go to bed. Of course this morning I totally forgot about it because I had to hit the recliner to continue my personal waiting to die program. I suppose the good news is the older you are the shorter the wait.


I had elected not to respond to that nonsense but this made me laugh. The discussion had nothing to do with age. I certainly did not mention it. LOL. 

I got another 8 years, 5 months and 23 days before I can die... that is how long the company owns me until I can retire..... They will prop me up at the desk if I go b4 then.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Elana, you bring up your age _all the friggin time._



Elana55 said:


> You are 25 I think.. hardly ready to push up daisies. Opportunity will come along (tho it feels like death right now) and sometimes things happen for a reason (it does not feel like that either right now).
> 
> I am more than twice your age and giving this the same go thru Questa. It will not be until next year that she is X'rayd. If she is NG for breeding I still have a helluva dog and I figure things happen for a reason.. and at my age how far can I really take a line and develop it? I don't give up easy.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Xeph, you're an awesome dog lady. awesome dog ladies however, are human beings and entitled to both have feelings and express them. nothing you have said or did that ive seen in regards to this is anything other than the actions of a caring and conscientious human being. Im making a list of some of the links i told you about..been trying to find some non technical stuff that talks about the same stuff..and some links to the research facilities i was talking about that you should consider contacting so that Rada can still make a positive contribution to her breed as well as there is a distinct possibility you may get access to help with management techniques and new treatments for participating. it's not a bad thought...least i think so.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You got a dog, not lame, that may not be a show prospect and may not be a breeding prospect but who is a good dog to have and you are DEVESTATED?


You bet your BUTT I am! I have TRIED adults, and they DO NOT WORK OUT! I do not want to take on the bad habits somebody else created! I do not want to have to FIX the bad habits, or deal with some of the problems created that AREN'T fixable (which I mentioned before, if you bothered to read it).

And you know, you have NO IDEA all the hell I have gone through with dogs. Nada, zero, zilch, zip, cero. You do not know what has transpired over the last decade. You do not know how many dogs have fallen through, how hard it is to even get some people to TALK to you about purchasing a dog. You do not know the CRAP I have been through with breeders as a whole.

But you're perfectly happy to judge MY feelings of emotional upset because you don't know the circumstances, and/or haven't had the same issues yourself.

I'm glad you've had good experiences with GSD breeders. I, as a whole, have not. People in this breed tend to separate into their own little cliques, and they'll be damned if they let anybody else in! Especially people that are not willing to fall in line with the status quo!

My breeder, thank heavens, is being extremely supportive, and will help me with any decision I make.

Mirada will not be spayed until after January 24th. I'll have another vet look at the films when we move, but regardless of circumstances...I am not ok with breeding a bitch with iffy hips. And definitely not for my first litter. I DO see what you are saying, JohnnyBandit, it terms of furthering the breed along. Even the SV allows for some NZ dogs to be bred, to try and keep the gene pool open (for all the good that's done). But for ME, I don't feel right about it.

I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I sold a dog to somebody that ended up with bad hips, and I knew the risk because I bred a dog with iffy hips myself. I don't want anybody to feel the way I feel right now.

I'm not saying I'd never produce a dysplastic dog....that's silly. But I feel it would be detrimental to myself and my breeding program in the long run if I chose to reproduce that dog.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

You know. Some people have crappy stuff happen to them, a LOT, over their lifespan. Some don't. Some only have small things happen, here and there. A very unlucky few live a charmed life (yes, I said unlucky). 

It's funny though, how some who've had a hard time of it develop a need to dismiss other people's feelings as over the top because their dramas were not 'as bad' as theirs and how others develop a sense of empathy and understanding. Disappointment and hurt feel the same, no matter what the person's life...to crap on someone because they are disappointed, to say "Get over it", is unempathetic and Cruel (yes, capital C cruel). You cannot judge someone for how they FEEL. 

Life gives you lemons, make lemonade...absolutely...but someone here has BECOME a lemon. It's offensive to see these comments berating a poster for being upset, disappointed and sad about the plans she was developing fall through. It is not the time to be criticizing. It is a time for support. Whether you agree that this is a big thing or not means nothing, it is BIG to Xeph and if you have any empathy at all, it would behoove you to use it when posting your thoughts. It's okay to disagree, it's okay to question, it is NOT okay to belittle. If you are still licking your own wounds, which I highly suspect you are, creating more in others isn't going to help that.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> My first serious breeding horse was a Quarter Horse by a AAA Stallion. She was one of the best horses you could lay eyes on. Enough Thoroughbred look to her to be athletic for English riding and enough QH substance to be a real working horse. A little large for some things (like cutting). I bought her as a 6 month old. I bought her with plans to breed her and wanted to ship her to Texas to be bred to "The Ol' Man." I trained her and she was everything you could ever want in a horse.
> 
> Fast forward a few years and it is time to do the breeding thing. Because I wanted an early foal (b4 the field work started) I put her under lights. I did everything to bring her in heat. She never really showed a heat.. so I got the vet in sooner rather than later. Her ovaries were the size of Peas. We waited until spring.. let her hit grass and the rest. She never came in heat. She had ovaries the size of peas. Ovaries in a horse that is cycling are the size of oranges... She was NEVER going to be a breeding horse. EVER. She had matured and develooped and as a coming four year old should have had a mature reproductive tract.
> 
> I had limited finances and decided to sell her. I was NOT devestated. Disappointed? Yes. Ready to quit? NEVER. I replaced her with a Thoroughbred that I did eventually breed and who did produce a Premium Oldenburg filly. My other horse that could not be bred went on to be a champion on barrels and then she was sold again where she was a champion Heading/Heeling horse. The Premium filly went on (after sale) to be a Dressage Horse and she did go FEI. The time between horse #1 and horse #2 was years... (horses gestate 11 months and produce single offspring).


Honest question...if the decision to place Mirada in a junior handling home or a pet home, or a weekend warrior home were to arise, how is that so much worse than selling a horse who wasn't a possible brood mare, but was a wonderful barrel horse, dressage horse, etc? She was better off doing what she did when you sold her, how isn't that the case for a dog?


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

Cracker said:


> You know. Some people have crappy stuff happen to them, a LOT, over their lifespan. Some don't. Some only have small things happen, here and there. A very unlucky few live a charmed life (yes, I said unlucky).
> 
> It's funny though, how some who've had a hard time of it develop a need to dismiss other people's feelings as over the top because their dramas were not 'as bad' as theirs and how others develop a sense of empathy and understanding. Disappointment and hurt feel the same, no matter what the person's life...to crap on someone because they are disappointed, to say "Get over it", is unempathetic and Cruel (yes, capital C cruel). You cannot judge someone for how they FEEL.
> 
> Life gives you lemons, make lemonade...absolutely...but someone here has BECOME a lemon. It's offensive to see these comments berating a poster for being upset, disappointed and sad about the plans she was developing fall through. It is not the time to be criticizing. It is a time for support. Whether you agree that this is a big thing or not means nothing, it is BIG to Xeph and if you have any empathy at all, it would behoove you to use it when posting your thoughts. It's okay to disagree, it's okay to question, it is NOT okay to belittle. If you are still licking your own wounds, which I highly suspect you are, creating more in others isn't going to help that.


Cracker, this was very nicely said. Xeph, I'm really sorry about this news. You've put a lot of thought and effort into breeding in general and Mirada specifically. I absolutely, 100% support your right to be upset, angry, sad, devastated, or however you feel. I also know that you'll always do right by your animals and I find it so offensive that some posters would try to insinuate otherwise - especially when you're feeling down. It's just ridiculous.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Why is this thread so snarky?

Really. I don't get it. This "community" is atatcking one another and I don't get it.

Why can't be be supportive of a member in need without feeling like we are choosing sides?

Is it because this is a forum and we forget that there are PEOPLE attached to emotions here?

In case we have forgotten, it is human nature to be upset when we recieve bad news. If any one of us can say we have gotten bad news and been overjoyed, we would be lying.

A PERSON got bad news and that PERSON is upset. 

And she is being attacked for her opinions...and now others are being attacked/questioned for theirs.

At the risk of sounding ridiculous--can't we all just get along?


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Interesting read lol

THANK YOU for being such an honest person xeph, if all the breeders in the world were this open and honest about issues the dog world would be much different (for the better).

Reading your posts you have all the qualities of a great breeder and I think you should pursue the dream with everything you have, keep this GSD or not (its your choice) but the breed needs you, don't give up and don't let this crush your spirit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Cracker said:


> You know. Some people have crappy stuff happen to them, a LOT, over their lifespan. Some don't. Some only have small things happen, here and there. A very unlucky few live a charmed life (yes, I said unlucky).
> 
> It's funny though, how some who've had a hard time of it develop a need to dismiss other people's feelings as over the top because their dramas were not 'as bad' as theirs and how others develop a sense of empathy and understanding. Disappointment and hurt feel the same, no matter what the person's life...to crap on someone because they are disappointed, to say "Get over it", is unempathetic and Cruel (yes, capital C cruel). You cannot judge someone for how they FEEL.
> 
> Life gives you lemons, make lemonade...absolutely...but someone here has BECOME a lemon. It's offensive to see these comments berating a poster for being upset, disappointed and sad about the plans she was developing fall through. It is not the time to be criticizing. It is a time for support. Whether you agree that this is a big thing or not means nothing, it is BIG to Xeph and if you have any empathy at all, it would behoove you to use it when posting your thoughts. It's okay to disagree, it's okay to question, it is NOT okay to belittle. If you are still licking your own wounds, which I highly suspect you are, creating more in others isn't going to help that.


Thank you, Cracker. Very well said and agree 100%. People process disappointment differently, there isn't a "correct" way to react to sad, disappointing news.

Xeph, I've said it before... I think you are showing a great deal of integrity (and maturity!) here. As you know, there are irreversible degenerative changes in those hips, and an OFA rating isn't going to change that. You're making a very painful and unselfish decision, I wish more people would. I'm sorry you're disappointed, I would be, too.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Just saw this. I'm so sorry Xeph! You put so much work into your dogs by trying to breed for nerves, temperament and not just looks alone and I'm sorry that it didnt work out


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

LuckySarah said:


> Interesting read lol
> 
> THANK YOU for being such an honest person xeph, if all the breeders in the world were this open and honest about issues the dog world would be much different (for the better).
> 
> Reading your posts you have all the qualities of a great breeder and I think you should pursue the dream with everything you have, keep this GSD or not (its your choice) but the breed needs you, don't give up and don't let this crush your spirit.


I'd like to double that. I'm truly sorry, Xeph, that Mirada's hips have not passed for breeding. I'm sure you will do right by her, and please remember to do right by yourself as well.

SOB


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

theyogachick said:


> Why is this thread so snarky?
> 
> Really. I don't get it. This "community" is atatcking one another and I don't get it.
> 
> ...


 
Very well put.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Thank you for the support. It has helped. I am still angry, and I am still hurting, but it is directed at circumstances, not Mirada. Her breeder is being so incredibly supportive, and has offered a replacement, which I may take her up on.

I've mentioned it twice, but I need to mention again that I do not feel comfortable bringing an adult dog into the house (particularly with Strauss). I have dealt with two adult dogs, and neither of them worked out. I personally find it very hard to bond with an adult dog, especially when they have bad habits, and their drive has been squashed (a 3 year old dog that isn't housebroken is unacceptable).

I need to raise the dog myself and KNOW the things I want are there.

I will not start with a 3-4 year old bitch, but rather a 6 month-12 month that has preliminary x rays taken care of.\

Puppies are a crap shoot. I have never ignored or denied that. But saying "You knew the risks" when something goes wrong doesn't make terrible news any less hurtful or soul crushing. Puppies are a crap shoot I need to take, because I do not like feeling animosity towards a dog when the dog has done nothing wrong. But a lack of training in a 3 year old isn't just obnoxious. It IS dangerous for me (I was just standing around today, lost my balance, and fell into a wall).

I'll be visiting my breeder in June to take a look at dogs, and get pictures of all the dogs I can (including Mirada's siblings).


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

How is Mirada's breeder handling this? I know she's offering you another dog, etc, but how are they handling it emotionally? I imagine it would be heartbreaking for them as well with Mirada being one of their dogs. Also, do you know anything about Mirada's siblings and how their hips are?

I'm just curious.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I know she's offering you another dog, etc, but how are they handling it emotionally?


She sympathizes greatly. She's been through the exact same thing and had the same issues getting started. She's concerned about Mogwai's siblings too, but they have not been x rayed (or shown) yet. She knows how much I love Mogwai, and how excited I was to get her after a different bitch had fallen through for me.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> ???
> 
> I don't think I've actually really ever talked to Jackie on FB.
> 
> ...


^^ This, I don't get it either, at all.



> You know. Some people have crappy stuff happen to them, a LOT, over their lifespan. Some don't. Some only have small things happen, here and there. A very unlucky few live a charmed life (yes, I said unlucky).
> 
> It's funny though, how some who've had a hard time of it develop a need to dismiss other people's feelings as over the top because their dramas were not 'as bad' as theirs and how others develop a sense of empathy and understanding. Disappointment and hurt feel the same, no matter what the person's life...to crap on someone because they are disappointed, to say "Get over it", is unempathetic and Cruel (yes, capital C cruel). You cannot judge someone for how they FEEL.
> 
> Life gives you lemons, make lemonade...absolutely...but someone here has BECOME a lemon. It's offensive to see these comments berating a poster for being upset, disappointed and sad about the plans she was developing fall through. It is not the time to be criticizing. It is a time for support. Whether you agree that this is a big thing or not means nothing, it is BIG to Xeph and if you have any empathy at all, it would behoove you to use it when posting your thoughts. It's okay to disagree, it's okay to question, it is NOT okay to belittle. If you are still licking your own wounds, which I highly suspect you are, creating more in others isn't going to help that.


^^ and THIS 100%!!

Xeph has EVERY right to be disappointed right now and to express that disappointment. The criticism and condemnation she has received here from a couple of members is completely unacceptable.

Xeph, I said it before, but I'm so very sorry about this, I know the hopes you had for Mirada and the incredible amount of time and effort and money you have put into her. I also know that no matter what happens, you WILL do right by her. Stay strong Xeph, and don't let anyone make you feel wrong for what you are feeling right now. (((hugs)))


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I also know that no matter what happens, you WILL do right by her.


Mirada says "Doin' right by me SUCKS! She shoved a hip supplement down my face that tastes like nasty APPLES!!! WHERE'S THE FISH!?!?"

She's not happy about the flavoring of her supplement (which has all sorts of fabulous things in it for her joints, and the bottle is huge, and will last quite awhile), and I had to squirt it down her throat in a syringe because she refused to eat it over her kibble. She was better about taking the Ivomec! LOL!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

LOL!!! Silly Mirada!


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Xeph has EVERY right to be disappointed right now and to express that disappointment. The criticism and condemnation she has received here from a couple of members is completely unacceptable.


Really? dont be dramatic.

If this thread were a byb newbie saying they were getting rid of their dog because it was slightly uneasy around kids you all would rip them apart because we would have all known there could be many attributing factors to this and the "how could you's" would fly in,Mirada has bad hips so its a possibility she could be re-homed (although xeph has said no) basically to me thats a simple equation,dog cant win nada or be bred so =goodbye.

I DO realize there is a dream at stake her peeps but to me dogs are NEVER disposable,to me "rehoming in a nice place" is just that.

Xeph and Mirada aside i do find the whole "breeders world" less emotional towards dogs and more about titles and winning. If the dog wins its all love if it doesn't and has no chance then that dog can become disappointing and i personally hate that.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Which is why the show world isn't for everybody. But I will I admit I do not appreciate it when people infer that because a breeder would give up a dog, it means that they do not love that dog.

I do not believe dogs are disposable either, but I've learned some very important things about myself, like that fact that taking on grown adults really isn't for me, and that I can't keep a dog I don't like just because that's the "right" thing to do. I've learned that my dream is very very important to me, and I'll do what I have to to be as sure as I can that my dogs are safe and happy and healthy. I cannot keep everything.

Some dogs will go, some dogs will stay. None of them are disposable, and each one will be placed with deep thought and consideration.

If Mahler ends up not working out as an SD, will people here get pissy because he'll get sent back?

I don't see how the dog loses if it's in a good home, but at this point, it is neither here nor there.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There's a big difference in rehoming a dog to a good home versus a dog being thrown away. And that's about all I have to say on that.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

there is a big difference between rehoming an animal that doesn't fit your program and dumping a dog.

Good breeders spend hours and hours training/titling potential dogs, its impossible if you are keeping every dog that doesn't work.

ETA we are buying a working bitch, her temperament is guaranteed, but if she doesn't work out and I spend 10 hours a week training her for 2 years and I can't get a title then she goes back to her breeder and we start over. I have NO problem with it what so ever... is it hard because you are attached after spending so much time with a dog? sure is. But this is what it takes to be the best of the best when you are titling and potentially breeding to better a breed.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

A good friend of mine rehomed one of her Champion males to a home in Finland because he would do more good for the breed there.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

This is not the same but on a message board I used to post on, someone who is heavily into dog sports said if one of her dogs could no longer do sports, she'd rehome the dog. I asked why and it was because she can only have X amount of dogs and if one can't do the sports, rehome to make room for another. (I believe I have it pretty close). I didn't understand it then and I'm not sure I understand this now. I'm speaking as a pet owner only so my understanding doesn't matter anyway. I do have one question though. Xeph, in your contract with the breeder, does it state that she gets the dog back if you can't keep her?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph, in your contract with the breeder, does it state that she gets the dog back if you can't keep her?


No. Replacement or not, Mirada can stay with us. We have the option of keeping her, or rehoming her (as long as she ends up spayed either way).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> This is not the same but on a message board I used to post on, someone who is heavily into dog sports said if one of her dogs could no longer do sports, she'd rehome the dog. I asked why and it was because she can only have X amount of dogs and if one can't do the sports, rehome to make room for another. (I believe I have it pretty close). I didn't understand it then and I'm not sure I understand this now. I'm speaking as a pet owner only so my understanding doesn't matter anyway. I do have one question though. Xeph, in your contract with the breeder, does it state that she gets the dog back if you can't keep her?


Not saying this is a good or bad thing, and like anything there are responsible ways and irresponsible ways to do it, but I think these two blog posts explain the breeder side of it very well.

http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/dog-behavior/dogs-who-fail/
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/dog-behavior/what-rehoming-teaches-us-about-dogs-and-ourselves/


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm sorry to hear what happened, Xeph.

All this talk of lemons, however, have me thinking of this quote:



> When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take back the lemons back! Get mad! I don't want your damn lemons! What the hell are these?! Demand to see life's manager! Make life rue the day it thought it could give me lemons! Do you know who I am? I'm the man who's gonna burn your house down! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that BURNS YOUR HOUSE DOWN!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> There's a big difference in rehoming a dog to a good home versus a dog being thrown away. And that's about all I have to say on that.


Since Auz's sire was imported at 3 years old, I'll have to inform the people who brought in an international champion with a schH3 under his belt that I am eternally grateful for them accepting a dumped dog into their breeding program...



InkedMarie said:


> This is not the same but on a message board I used to post on, someone who is heavily into dog sports said if one of her dogs could no longer do sports, she'd rehome the dog. I asked why and it was because she can only have X amount of dogs and if one can't do the sports, rehome to make room for another. (I believe I have it pretty close). I didn't understand it then and I'm not sure I understand this now. I'm speaking as a pet owner only so my understanding doesn't matter anyway. I do have one question though. Xeph, in your contract with the breeder, does it state that she gets the dog back if you can't keep her?


I think I remember this as well. I think it was more or less of if she brought in a young dog who couldn't/wouldn't play the game, the dog would go to a pet home. If this is the person I'm thinking it is, I'm pretty sure one or two of their dogs has been retired from pretty much all sports but still lives with them. If I were heavily into a dog sport and spent the majority of my time away from home, with my dogs, I would second guess keeping a dog who would be crated home alone a lot of the time. I would prefer to see a dog like that in a home where they were a cherished pet that got to spend time with the family, vs. a dog who stayed at home while everyone was out all evening at classes or all weekend at a trial. 
(Plus, we all know how things tended to get a bit, erm...*twisted* up there...so who knows if we're even thinking of the same person! )



Xeph said:


> Which is why the show world isn't for everybody. But I will I admit I do not appreciate it when people infer that because a breeder would give up a dog, it means that they do not love that dog.
> 
> I do not believe dogs are disposable either, but I've learned some very important things about myself, like that fact that taking on grown adults really isn't for me, and that I can't keep a dog I don't like just because that's the "right" thing to do. I've learned that my dream is very very important to me, and I'll do what I have to to be as sure as I can that my dogs are safe and happy and healthy. I cannot keep everything.
> 
> ...


My breeder has rehomed a few dogs for various non-breedable reasons--sterile, low drive, etc. Some dogs they produced, some they didn't. That didn't matter when it came to finding them EXCELLENT homes. Some dogs she still has up "for sale"...meaning you have to be screened as if you were a puppy buyer. If someone comes in and wants "one of dem dere german shepArd dawgs to guard my farm", they're told no. If this person wanted to "get rid" of her dogs, she could have done so easily as her dogs are all very nice, and very beautiful, and would make excellent pets for an active home. She's had a LOT of inquiries about a certain dog, and (last time I talked to them), no home has fit his bill. Saying breeders "dump" dogs that don't work out in breeding programs is like saying breeders "dump" puppies at 12 weeks old that don't show a good prospect for working or showing. Pet quality pups go to pet homes, and pet quality dogs go to pet homes. *shrug*


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> Very well put.


I also agree, your signature says it all, cshell.

Please don't give up, Xeph, I wish every breed had at least one person as devoted as you.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Well technically, I have a "dumped" dog... Though he WAS actually dumped at first! Pentti was sold to a couple with two younger kids as a pet/possible show prospect. He and Kimma's breeder got tons of pictures sent in with Pentti and "his" kids - playing, running around, etc. Apparently, however, the adults in the family never did much (if any) training with him, and at around 1 year of age, he I guess became "too much" for them to handle. So he was dropped off at a shelter. And it's a bit weird for a purebred Finkie to be in a shelter. 

Luckily, our breeder's info was still on the microchip, so the shelter contacted him and he PAID to ship Pentti back down to Texas (the family was in Oregon or something). He was turned in to a show dog, and "given" to me as my potential first show prospect. Things didn't turn out (he was attacked by another dog at a show and developed some DA issues - we thought that he would be able to get better with time/desensitization/etc., but he never did), so now he's my pet. The breeder even offered to "replace" him, but since two males in the same house would be a bit much (especially given Pentti's history), and there's nooooo way I can not have Pentti here, we're going to wait for a little while and I may show some of his other dogs in the meantime. 

This breeder (like Xeph) cares for his dogs A LOT. He goes to great lengths to make sure that they are with the best families that they can be with (pet OR show), and will do most anything to make sure they are happy. And I have to say - Pentti is truly a blessing in my life. I can't imagine not having him.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't see a problem with breeders finding a good pet homes for retired breeding/showing dogs, or a sports dog that didn't work out. I think it's sad to give up a dog you've had for awhile, it's not something I'd ever be able to do. But I think that a lot of dogs would prefer to be the only pet in a home (or with a couple other pets) instead of being one of many, especially if kenneled. As long as proper care is taken that the dog go to the right home, I don't see why anyone would object.

I do have a huge problem with breeders/show people/sports people who would KILL a dog that didn't work out, that's just not something that decent people do.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The simple fact of the matter is most who go into the breeding business cannot keep every single dog they grow out that doesn't turn out. I am not saying some don't, but a lot just plain can't. I think it might be harder for those not involved with breeders to not 'get' it. 

Just my experience here but I've gotten not one, not two, but THREE dogs because they were grown out and for whatever reason didn't make the cut. The first was Trey- too shy and a couple faults that would've made him a bad showing/breeding choice. We got him at a year old and he was already completely trained. He fit right in with our other sheltie. His breeder was a good friend of ours. Rose we got at two years after she was returned to her breeder because she hated to show. Summer I got after she failed to produce after two attempts at breeding her and one emergency c-section which resulted in dead pups. I got her at 4 years. Rose and Summer's breeder rehomes some of her older dogs but honestly the only people that have ever gotten one of her retirees are friends who have ALREADY got a dog or two from her. It's not like they just give the dog to the next home. They only go to homes where she knows they'll be taken care of AND where she'll see them. The other fact here is Summer is a very active dog (still even!) and my breeder could no longer physically provide her with the exercise due to injury. Summer was much happier being MY special dog and doing agility with me. I don't think any of my dogs are hurting in any way. They've all got it pretty darn good imo.

Dogs are adaptable. Honestly, I think we seem to humanize them so much more than we're aware. I don't think any of mine sit around and think 'Hmmm... what about that one life I used to have?" I will say Summer loves visiting her old home and her breeder loves having her and gets to have her for a few weeks out of the year. And I will also say that Rose's first owner has seen her several times and bawled each time she's seen her. And Rose is thrilled to see her as well. It's NOT something breeders do easily, at least not the ones worth their salt. 

I also know pet people that have rehomed dogs for various reasons- they didn't 'click', didn't mesh well, whatever. As long as the dog is going to an equally good or better home for them, then I am happy.

That said, one reason I think I'll never have a real breeding program is I can't let go of a dog. I'm having a hard enough time thinking about adopting Ada out and she's not even my kind of a dog and I've only had her 3 weeks!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> No. Replacement or not, Mirada can stay with us. We have the option of keeping her, or rehoming her (as long as she ends up spayed either way).


ok then. <message too short>



LazyGRanch713;1004214
I think I remember this as well. I think it was more or less of if she brought in a young dog who couldn't/wouldn't play the game said:


> twisted[/B] up there...so who knows if we're even thinking of the same person! )
> 
> 
> 
> My breeder has rehomed a few dogs for various non-breedable reasons--sterile, low drive, etc. Some dogs they produced, some they didn't. That didn't matter when it came to finding them EXCELLENT homes. Some dogs she still has up "for sale"...meaning you have to be screened as if you were a puppy buyer. If someone comes in and wants "one of dem dere german shepArd dawgs to guard my farm", they're told no. If this person wanted to "get rid" of her dogs, she could have done so easily as her dogs are all very nice, and very beautiful, and would make excellent pets for an active home. She's had a LOT of inquiries about a certain dog, and (last time I talked to them), no home has fit his bill. Saying breeders "dump" dogs that don't work out in breeding programs is like saying breeders "dump" puppies at 12 weeks old that don't show a good prospect for working or showing. Pet quality pups go to pet homes, and pet quality dogs go to pet homes. *shrug*


Nope, this must be a different one we're thinking of. This one said if one of hers couldn't physically do sports, she needed to rehome to make room for one who would. I was in good graces way back then, we had email exchanges back and forth. I have no problem with a breeder finding a home for a dog who doesn't pan out as a show dog or breeding prospect; two of our dogs came to us that way. Me, personally, I do have a problem with a person who does sports who'd rehome a dog because it can't play & win anymore. That's just me. I love my dogs, not only what they can do for me.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Mr Pooch said:


> If this thread were a byb newbie saying they were getting rid of their dog because it was slightly uneasy around kids you all would rip them apart because we would have all known there could be many attributing factors to this and the "how could you's" would fly in


Actually I personally would tell them to rehome or EUTH, especailly if the dog is a potential biter. Having had a child that was severely bitten puts things in a different perspective.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Xeph and Mirada aside i do find the whole "breeders world" less emotional towards dogs and more about titles and winning. If the dog wins its all love if it doesn't and has no chance then that dog can become disappointing and i personally hate that.


I must say that in bird dog trials many years ago it was the trend to sell a wash-out trial dog cause many times it was because dog did not have the range needed for trail work. This meant he would be more of a close ranging dog that hunters would die for. Remember the source here as it's ancient history.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I do have a problem with a person who does sports who'd rehome a dog because it can't play & win anymore.


If a dog is bought for a purpose, and the dog cannot fulfill that purpose, I think it's perfectly ok to rehome the dog. I am no longer content with "just pets". I do not want a dog that just sits around the the house that I cannot compete in anything with. I can still compete with Mirada in low level titling events, but I DO buy dogs to show and trial. My "just pets" are cats.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

I think what this all boils down to is

1.) Those who view dogs strictly as pets likely do not understand or agree with the opinions of those who dream of breeding/showing/somethinging their dogs and the opposing viewpoint can come across as harsh to those who do not hold it.

2.) Those who dream of breeding/showing/somethinging their dogs likely do not understand or agree with the opinions of those who view dogs strictly as pets and the opposing viewpoint can come across as harsh to those who do not hold it.




yay, world peace.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Xeph said:


> If a dog is bought for a purpose, and the dog cannot fulfill that purpose, I think it's perfectly ok to rehome the dog. I am no longer content with "just pets". I do not want a dog that just sits around the the house that I cannot compete in anything with. I can still compete with Mirada in low level titling events, but I DO buy dogs to show and trial. My "just pets" are cats.


That's how I feel.
Dogs who make great pets do not belong with working owners, they belong with people looking for a great pet.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> ok then. <message too short>
> 
> 
> 
> Nope, this must be a different one we're thinking of. This one said if one of hers couldn't physically do sports, she needed to rehome to make room for one who would. I was in good graces way back then, we had email exchanges back and forth. I have no problem with a breeder finding a home for a dog who doesn't pan out as a show dog or breeding prospect; two of our dogs came to us that way. Me, personally, I do have a problem with a person who does sports who'd rehome a dog because it can't play & win anymore. That's just me. I love my dogs, not only what they can do for me.


Honestly, if the person is very involved at high levels of a sport, and a dog isn't able to compete at that level, is it better for the dog to go to someone who will either find a different occupation that the dog enjoys or be looking to have a good time with the dog at a lower level of competition, without as much pressure; or is it better to leave that dog sitting home while you work with the dog who can succeed at the highest level? Doesn't every dog deserve a chance to be special? It really bothered/bothers me the number of dogs that some top obedience competitiors go through to find the dog who can actually do their job. I think with the advent of clicker training, there are fewer wash-outs because a) the communication is much better and b) the pressures are less while the dog is learning. I wish it was a more common method in many sports, and one of the things I love about Freestyle. Also in freestyle, most people are working (and succeeding) with the dogs they have. You just don't hear of freestyle trainers rehoming a dog who won't meet their goals (but I've only been in the sport about two years, so I could be naive.) WCFO also has programs for senior dogs (and/or humans) who may not be as competitive as they once were, and a program for disabled dogs or handlers. I'm very glad that once he's healed Ray (who was/is my star choreographer) will have a place in the program, even if his leg is never 100% (thought the last surgeon seemed to think we may have a chance to get close). If the leg doesn't heal again, and he ends up a tripod, he'll STILL get a chance to dance. And since he loves that, no way I'll take it away from him


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh Xeph I am so sorry, I have been keeping up with this thread, but I did not want to answer when the fighting was going on. I can understand you being upset and shocked and you have every right to be. I guess what I do not understnad is you giving up, and yes I do not know you, but from what I got from talking to you was that you were not a quitter, and I course I may be wrong about that, and also I think that you saying that was just a heat of the moment emotional thing, and I hope you have had time to step back and re evaluate things.

It is great your breeder is being so good about this, as yeah not every breeder would be. I hope things work out and you keep at it because this sport and particularly that breed needs more people like you.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> It really bothered/bothers me the number of dogs that some top obedience competitiors go through to find the dog who can actually do their job.


Agreed and then the funny part is that the unacknowledged public does not hear of these washouts and a legend is born.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Oh Xeph I am so sorry, I have been keeping up with this thread, but I did not want to answer when the fighting was going on. I can understand you being upset and shocked and you have every right to be. I guess what I do not understnad is you giving up, and yes I do not know you, but from what I got from talking to you was that you were not a quitter, and I course I may be wrong about that, and also I think that you saying that was just a heat of the moment emotional thing, and I hope you have had time to step back and re evaluate things.
> 
> It is great your breeder is being so good about this, as yeah not every breeder would be. I hope things work out and you keep at it because this sport and particularly that breed needs more people like you.


I didn't see any indication that she's giving up. I think when one gets a set-back like this - especially when one is just starting to get into trying to be a breeder, it's normal to question "can I really do this?" It sounds like she is looking at ways to move forward from here.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> If a dog is bought for a purpose, and the dog cannot fulfill that purpose, I think it's perfectly ok to rehome the dog. I am no longer content with "just pets". I do not want a dog that just sits around the the house that I cannot compete in anything with. I can still compete with Mirada in low level titling events, but I DO buy dogs to show and trial. My "just pets" are cats.


If I'm reading InkedMarie right, are you saying that when the dog is too OLD to compete that she rehomes the dog? Because THAT is extremely unethical, and to me an entirely different situation. It's one thing to rehome a young dog to a place where they can have a better life, but an old dog gave his life to you. You owe it to him to take care of him. Gosh, I'm getting really upset just thinking about it. I can't even imagine the attitude you would have to have to think that's okay. I don't think that's what anyone in this thread is saying.



Pawzk9 said:


> It really bothered/bothers me the number of dogs that some top obedience competitiors go through to find the dog who can actually do their job.


Like anything, I think there's a line and you also have to look at each person's situation. Do they just have terrible luck and they have to wash out dogs for legitimate reasons? Or are they washing out dogs because they hit a snag in training? In some cases, it's the trainer, not the dog.



> If the leg doesn't heal again, and he ends up a tripod, he'll STILL get a chance to dance. And since he loves that, no way I'll take it away from him


It's a good thing Ray is a dog, because Cats Don't Dance.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Agreed and then the funny part is that the unacknowledged public does not hear of these washouts and a legend is born.


In breeding. In Obedience (which I do not understand..). Especially in bite work sports. Even as pets (without the legend). 

And then there are the Legends in Their own Minds types.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Gosh, I'm getting really upset just thinking about it. I can't even imagine the attitude you would have to have to think that's okay. I don't think that's what anyone in this thread is saying.


I wonder if older dogs like older people just sit/lay around and wait to die, I guess maybe they don't have a life either. Any competition dogs I handled and a couple I owned stayed in their homes till they died. I do agree that would be a very sad/bad attitude to dump a dog beause of age.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> If I'm reading InkedMarie right, are you saying that when the dog is too OLD to compete that she rehomes the dog? Because THAT is extremely unethical, and to me an entirely different situation. It's one thing to rehome a young dog to a place where they can have a better life, but an old dog gave his life to you. You owe it to him to take care of him. Gosh, I'm getting really upset just thinking about it. I can't even imagine the attitude you would have to have to think that's okay. I don't think that's what anyone in this thread is saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it would be a question of what makes the dog happy too. If a dog has gotten to go with you every weekend and train every day, and is now retired, is that dog going to be happy watching another dog take his place? Might he be happier as a family pet who still gets a ton of attention and to go with his people every weekend. Depends on the people involved. Depends on the dog. Sometimes it is in the dog's best interest. And not every retired dog is ancient. Some are still pretty close to in their prime. I also don't have a problem with placing a retired breeding dog in a good family home. I don't really see much difference, and think it is up to the individual to decide what is best for them and for their dog - as long as they choose carefully and keep the dog's best interest at the front of the decision process.

As to wash outs, I'm mostly talking about trainers who put a lot of pressure on dogs and wash out any dog that doesn't have the drive or hardness to work through it with a sparkly attitude. Certainly not every dog is a top prospect, and some people really aren't happy with anything less than a 199. But if you are going through a whole bunch of well bred, carefully selected dogs because they can't handle how you train, I think the problem might not be the dogs.

Cats do too, dance. They just don't accept outside choreography.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

wvasko said:


> I wonder if older dogs like older people just sit/lay around and wait to die, I guess maybe they don't have a life either. Any competition dogs I handled and a couple I owned stayed in their homes till they died. I do agree that would be a very sad/bad attitude to dump a dog beause of age.


I actually got a dog that way once. A middle aged Chesapeake that was presented to me for euthanasia for being "aggressive". I'm not going to go into the whole long and boring story but I ended up talking them into letting me keep the dog instead, she had the worse arthritis I've ever seen in the hips of a dog but lived several years with me without ever showing any hint of aggression towards people or dogs, and within a few days the owner came in with his new young lab for hunting. Let's just say I put 2 and 2 together. 

She was a great dog, though, it was their loss.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My breeder rehomes many of her older dogs (like 8-10 years). I don't see a problem at all. Like any rehoming, it depends on the dogs. I'd say she keeps about half and rehomes about half. About 3 or 4 have gone to a mutual friend and neighbor of hers. They live a quiet life as house pets and do therapy work at the nursing home. 

To be honest, the older girls are all MUCH happier in a quieter house than in a house where there's puppies and young dogs around a lot of the time. 

I think, like all things, it simply depends.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> I think it would be a question of what makes the dog happy too. If a dog has gotten to go with you every weekend and train every day, and is now retired, is that dog going to be happy watching another dog take his place? Might he be happier as a family pet who still gets a ton of attention and to go with his people every weekend.


But if it was raised from puppyhood with one person, wouldn't "his people" not be some strange family he ends up with? I mean... isn't it really stressful to take a dog away from the people its been with for its entire life only to give it to a new family...

I'm genuinely asking...I'm not sure how dogs adapt to this. 

Anyway, I got my blue merle sheltie when she was retired from showing and breeding. She had been passed from family to family for years. She was a great dog. She seemed to do ok with bonding to new families... but then she'd been moved every year or so her entire life.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> and also I think that you saying that was just a heat of the moment emotional thing


It was that, and a combination of other things. It's likely that a young dog may return to Pennsylvania with me next month, after I go visiting back home in WI.



> It's one thing to rehome a young dog to a place where they can have a better life, but an old dog gave his life to you. You owe it to him to take care of him. Gosh, I'm getting really upset just thinking about it.


I very much agree with this. Strauss will be retiring from his work in about 2 more years, and never in my life would I dream of placing him because he cannot do his job anymore. He has more than earned his retirement, and his spot on the couch.

For all those that were saying I should get a second opinion, I did. Before I mailed the x rays, I took them to my regular vet (who does check ups, shots, etc) to look at. They DO do OFA's but it would have cost me double what I paid last Friday. I only mention that they do OFA's so you know they understand how to read an x ray for OFA.

My vet said the SAME THING that Dr. Dove said. Moderate/severe dysplasia, degeneration of the femoral head, and remodeling of the acetabelum.



> But if it was raised from puppyhood with one person, wouldn't "his people" not be some strange family he ends up with?


No. Dogs change and adapt to their new situations. There are very few dogs that do not adapt to their new circumstances.



> isn't it really stressful to take a dog away from the people its been with for its entire life only to give it to a new family


Stressful? Of course. But lots of things stress a dog (and a human) every day. If the dog's temperament is good and sound, and the dog is healthy, the dog will readjust and acclimate just fine.

If they didn't, the import/export business wouldn't be so huge in GSDs. My breeder (of Mahler) has an adult dog she acquired a year or two ago, imported from Germany. He was already titled and had been raised by somebody else. That dog was sold to my breeder and he has assimilated into her group just fine.

In fact, even though the breeder says they're still working on getting that bond tighter, they went out and got their SchH III yesterday.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> She was a great dog, though, it was their loss.


I don't know her, but do know of a few dogs like her and actually in your case the dog received a home/owner upgrade and how cool is that. Not all are that lucky.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

lisak_87 said:


> But if it was raised from puppyhood with one person, wouldn't "his people" not be some strange family he ends up with? I mean... isn't it really stressful to take a dog away from the people its been with for its entire life only to give it to a new family...
> 
> I'm genuinely asking...I'm not sure how dogs adapt to this.
> 
> Anyway, I got my blue merle sheltie when she was retired from showing and breeding. She had been passed from family to family for years. She was a great dog. She seemed to do ok with bonding to new families... but then she'd been moved every year or so her entire life.


With the German Shepherds I have known, it is very stressful. They tend to be one person dogs. 

I have seen a GSD dog wait for months for her owner to come back. She could not.. she had passed away.. but the dog did not know it.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> With the German Shepherds I have known, it is very stressful. They tend to be one person dogs.
> 
> I have seen a GSD dog wait for months for her owner to come back. She could not.. she had passed away.. but the dog did not know it.


Australian shepherds also tend to be one person/one family dogs. But I can't tell you how many I've had through rescues who adjusted perfectly happily to a new home.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Australian shepherds also tend to be one person/one family dogs.


Cara is definitely a one person dog, she likes the rest of my family just fine but she will follow me like a shadow while going to them for a cursory pat. That said if doG forbid something were to happen to me, I'm sure she could adjust to a new home just fine.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Jeez. Reading this thread, I'm trying to imagine the reaction to my daily threats of roasting Dilly-Dally on a spit, or turning her into a fur hat. On the other hand, it is starting to get warm, and I won't need a fur hat for another 5-6 months. 

Xeph, you have my sympathies. I know it's no consolation, but that the fact that you are taking this so hard, and that you went through the expense and trouble to even test her in the first place, are the things that make you wish you _were_ breeding her. It's why I also hope you don't give up the dream entirely, because the fact is we need breeders who do care about those things, and it would be a terrible loss.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It's ok. Better than it was last Friday, anyway. I'm job hunting fiercely, and perhaps next month Jon and I will have another bitch to work.

Something I need to make clear here, is that while I show and train Mirada, Mirada is JON'S dog. It is JON that would truly be making a sacrifice if she were given up. I love Mirada, but Mirada's heart and soul belongs to Jon. She snuggles with HIM on the couch, and plays with HIM, and follows HIM around the house, the same way Mouse follows me.

Jon is willing to give up Mogwai for me, so I can have my dream, because I gave up so much of my life for him to have his dream. She is incredibly unlikely to go anywhere.

We do have a very very close friend that would be interested in taking her, but his circumstances aren't right for a dog right now, so Mirada goes nowhere. She'll be trained further, and worked here, and maybe we'll be getting her RN in a couple of weeks  Until then, we'll continue on as we have been. Playing and working together.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Honestly, if the person is very involved at high levels of a sport, and a dog isn't able to compete at that level, is it better for the dog to go to someone who will either find a different occupation that the dog enjoys or be looking to have a good time with the dog at a lower level of competition, without as much pressure; or is it better to leave that dog sitting home while you work with the dog who can succeed at the highest level? Doesn't every dog deserve a chance to be special? It really bothered/bothers me the number of dogs that some top obedience competitiors go through to find the dog who can actually do their job. I think with the advent of clicker training, there are fewer wash-outs because a) the communication is much better and b) the pressures are less while the dog is learning. I wish it was a more common method in many sports, and one of the things I love about Freestyle. Also in freestyle, most people are working (and succeeding) with the dogs they have. You just don't hear of freestyle trainers rehoming a dog who won't meet their goals (but I've only been in the sport about two years, so I could be naive.) WCFO also has programs for senior dogs (and/or humans) who may not be as competitive as they once were, and a program for disabled dogs or handlers. I'm very glad that once he's healed Ray (who was/is my star choreographer) will have a place in the program, even if his leg is never 100% (thought the last surgeon seemed to think we may have a chance to get close). If the leg doesn't heal again, and he ends up a tripod, he'll STILL get a chance to dance. And since he loves that, no way I'll take it away from him


Sandy, you know I look at things differently because I do not do sports with the dogs and for everyone, note that I said *I* don't understand. That's okay, I don't have to understand, they aren't my dogs.



RaeganW said:


> If I'm reading InkedMarie right, are you saying that when the dog is too OLD to compete that she rehomes the dog? Because THAT is extremely unethical, and to me an entirely different situation. It's one thing to rehome a young dog to a place where they can have a better life, but an old dog gave his life to you. You owe it to him to take care of him. Gosh, I'm getting really upset just thinking about it. I can't even imagine the attitude you would have to have to think that's okay. I don't think that's what anyone in this thread is saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure if you're talking to me or not, LOL but for the person I spoke of, she said if her dogs couldn't physically do sports anymore, she'd rehome them to make room for one who can. *I* read that as too old or too infirim (assuming ortho issues or the like).


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Xeph said:


> It's ok. Better than it was last Friday, anyway. I'm job hunting fiercely, and perhaps next month Jon and I will have another bitch to work.
> 
> Something I need to make clear here, is that while I show and train Mirada, Mirada is JON'S dog. It is JON that would truly be making a sacrifice if she were given up. I love Mirada, but Mirada's heart and soul belongs to Jon. She snuggles with HIM on the couch, and plays with HIM, and follows HIM around the house, the same way Mouse follows me.
> 
> ...


I can attest to the fact that Mirada is Jon's dog. I watched her earlier this year, and when Jon and Jackie returned to pick her up she stared right through Jackie, as in Jackie didn't even get a tail wag out of her. However as soon as she saw Jon she turned into a huge mushy puppy. When she saw Jon come back was the only time I saw the goofy Mogwai while she was here.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

> It really bothered/bothers me the number of dogs that some top obedience
> competitiors go through to find the dog who can actually do their job.





wvasko said:


> Agreed and then the funny part is that the unacknowledged public does not hear of these washouts and a legend is born.


 
Those "washouts" often go to loving homes or if they have a work drive they go to compete there. I feel a dog should be in a home compatable for it's drives and needs PERIOD. I mean honestly I have pet quality dogs right now, Angel is border line with being too much dog for my household because the reason we got her has gone away : She was supposed ot be a running partner for my Hubby, he's no longer able to run but we picked her breed BECAUSE of trainability and energy level. She's much loved and though she is a little understimulated at times we could never get rid of her. HOWEVER, if we weren't able to manage her any longer (or she had more drive) and I knew of someone who she'd be happier with and could manage her anxiety, I'd give her up because it would be best FOR HER.



Elana55 said:


> With the German Shepherds I have known, it is very stressful. They tend to be one person dogs.
> 
> I have seen a GSD dog wait for months for her owner to come back. She could not.. she had passed away.. but the dog did not know it.


This I know all too well to be true, within days of my mothers death we had to put her GSD male down, he was so stressed that his mistress had not come home and he was grieving himself to death. He started lashing out at family members and put stitches in my dads hand and attempted to bite one of my young nephews (he had never shown agression to kids before). I had to use a catch pole to safely handle him and my sister put a muzzle on him so we could transport him to the vet. It was sad and horrible but I know he met my Mom at the Bridge.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> With the German Shepherds I have known, it is very stressful. They tend to be one person dogs.
> 
> I have seen a GSD dog wait for months for her owner to come back. She could not.. she had passed away.. but the dog did not know it.


Reminds me of Kaya..

She was a stray when I rescued her 2-3 years old, trusted nobody... After a year though she became very very attached to me.

I adopted her to my parents I guess about 2 months ago.. It'll be interesting to see how long it takes before she doesn't pop a fuse when I come to visit, and want to jump in my truck and come home with me... Funny as she has the life of Riley with my Dad in his 80's and my mom in her 70's doting on her all day... acres of country land to run, several walks a day.

My mother said she didn't eat food for about 3-4 days, and stopped laying in the hall watching the front door all day and night for me to come back after about a week. I figure another 6 months and she'll have forgotten what my house is like, and be more attached to them than me.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Totally unrelated... I would love to see pix of your dogs Xeph. I have heard how beautiful they are. I can also understand how an older dog wouldn't work. Esp if you have other EST dogs all ready. I still ylthonk you should wait til she is 2 before you spay her. If it doesn't work out you can always spay her later, but you can't reverse a spay lmbo.

Izze would have made a great breeding dog in retrospect, sometimes I think 'what if' of course that is not nearly the same situation as you & I send tons of cyber hugs your way & command you for your 12 yrs of strength & dedication to a breed you obviously love very much. I know that it will work out eventually, you will find that perfect pup.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There are pictures of my crew all over the pictures section  If you do a forum search, and type my name in with Mirada, they'll come up


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Those "washouts" often go to loving homes or if they have a work drive they go to compete there. I feel a dog should be in a home compatable for it's drives and needs PERIOD.
> .


And good that they do. And great that they probably go to the new home immaculately trained in many ways. However, if I see a trainer who goes to breeders who should produce dogs who will do their work, and get the dogs young and without baggage, and train the dogs, and the dogs don't turn out (and this happens over and over) I would start looking at their training techniques as the problem - not the dogs. Certainly, not every dog can reach elite levels in any sport, but if that dog is too rare for a certain trainer, I do have to wonder.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I would like to say I have no problems with breeders/competitors that rehome dogs.

I would much rather the dog has a special loving home where they can get lots of attention, quiet walks, cuddles rather than being in an environment that they won't get as much attention.

For example if a competing dog is injured and can no longer compete (even for fun) ever again. If the owner wants to rehome, I really see no problems. I would much much rather have that dog go to a loving home where they can get all the attention they need with walks, play time in the park, etc. rather than in a home where the owner still has to train/compete with their other dogs and give much less attention to this injured dog. 

I don't think that's fair to the dog at all to have to spend less time with the owner because they can't compete and I don't think it's fair to the owner either to stop or drastically reduce competitions and training to spend more time (like just cuddling, relaxing, etc.) with the injured dog, especially if they are big time competitors.

Animals are still animals to me, they are not humans, it is acceptable to rehome them. They do adapt and they are happy again after a bit with their new family. On this note I will also add that I do understand sometimes that people have to give up their dogs because they lost the house, are forced to move and they cannot find housing that will accommodate for the dog. They surely can't give up their family and children for the dog's sake? 

As long as the rehomed dogs go to amazing, caring, loving homes that will take good care of them, I see no problems with rehoming whatsoever.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> And good that they do. And great that they probably go to the new home immaculately trained in many ways. However, if I see a trainer who goes to breeders who should produce dogs who will do their work, and get the dogs young and without baggage, and train the dogs, and the dogs don't turn out (and this happens over and over) I would start looking at their training techniques as the problem - not the dogs. Certainly, not every dog can reach elite levels in any sport, but if that dog is too rare for a certain trainer, I do have to wonder.


"THIS" for sure was washout program I was commenting about. Not the placement of such dogs, it's the quote / unquote trainers who sometimes have the cream of the crop and do not get job done. In bird dogs back in the day, GSPs had a 95% loss of nice pups and derbys who (6 months to 2 years) who placed regularly and at 2 years of age had to be steadied to wing shot and kill to go further and attain a Championship title were never heard from again for various reasons. To be fair many just could not afford to go further but a good sized percentage were just ruined by heavy handed trainers. I know nothing about today's %s. I personally always thought "it's what you do with what you've got" should have been the credo to work by/with.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, and I'll bet the hunt trial washouts didn't get a nice new home either, but most likely just didn't come home from hunting one day. Sigh. . .no wonder PETA and HSUS were able to become so popular.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, and I'll bet the hunt trial washouts didn't get a nice new home either, but most likely just didn't come home from hunting one day. Sigh. . .no wonder PETA and HSUS were able to become so popular.


I'll bet a fair number of them got sold to hunters with lower expectations.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

That's not what I've seen of hunters around here (they tend to believe that any dog they can't train is worthless and should die). . .but we can hope .


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, and I'll bet the hunt trial washouts didn't get a nice new home either, but most likely just didn't come home from hunting one day. Sigh. . .no wonder PETA and HSUS were able to become so popular.


No, as I explained earlier some did get sold and I'm sure some were placed and some met the grim reaper. It surely is not a perfect world. I would hope Peta/HSUS were not started just because of washed out bird dogs.

Actually field trials are run to produce good hunting dog pups, the finding of a bird, the pointing of a bird with style and a snappy retrieve to hand is what all that silly field trialing is all about. The breeding of these dogs produce great pups. (hopefully)

Isn't that what OTCHs are, the dogs with brains and the ability to handle the stress of trialing/working with their owners are also about. You breed one of these dogs to another OTCH and hopefully a litter of nice pups that have the ability to handle the normal things any owner would like. I know I'm simplifying the whole thing but sometimes I lack proper grammar skills needed to get point across.


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## EscVelocity (Mar 31, 2011)

I'm so sorry you have encountered a road block on your way to achieving your dream. However, if you follow the detour route you can still achieve them. It may take a little bit longer to get there, but sometimes the scenic route isn't so bad.  

I'm happy to hear that whatever you decide, you will have Mirada's best interest at heart. My dog Seamus came from a woman who had high hopes for him as well. The girls mother was a breeder and Seamus was a gift. She had wanted to show Seamus, and who knows, maybe start her own breeding program. Seamus turned out to be over-sized, and she took her disappointment out on him. He received no further care, other than his series of puppy vacs. When I got him he was flea infested, and had a coat in terrible shape. They didn't even screen potential adopter's. I just paid $75 bucks for him, no questions asked. 

Anyhoo, I went through Seamus's story because Seamus was one of the unlucky "washouts" (maybe lucky because I managed to acquire him), and it just re-enforces my opinion that if you do decide to re-home Mirada, I would never hold it against you. Not that I think you would neglect or harm Mirada, but she might be better suited as just a companion animal. Only you and Jon know her best, and I am sure you will make the best decision. Good Luck with your program, and I anticipate reading threads on here about the progress you are making.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Well, I missed this whole thing because I don't come here often anymore, but I just wanted to say sorry, Xeph. I can't even imagine the disappointment.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

I just now saw this. What disappointing news! I hope that for her sake the OFA results and her future prognosis is better than your vets are anticipating.



lisak_87 said:


> I think what this all boils down to is
> 
> 1.) Those who view dogs strictly as pets likely do not understand or agree with the opinions of those who dream of breeding/showing/somethinging their dogs and the opposing viewpoint can come across as harsh to those who do not hold it.
> 
> 2.) Those who dream of breeding/showing/somethinging their dogs likely do not understand or agree with the opinions of those who view dogs strictly as pets and the opposing viewpoint can come across as harsh to those who do not hold it.


I think this is it exactly. I can totally relate to the sentiment behind Mr. Pooch’s posts, but I imagine a breeder can’t feel that way and still be a breeder – they would turn into a hoarder, unable to meet the needs of all their dogs. It seems like breeders and pet owners have to have priorities that are, at times, incompatible.

(Here’s a Mr. Pooch quote for reference.)



Mr Pooch said:


> I DO realize there is a dream at stake her peeps but to me dogs are NEVER disposable,to me "rehoming in a nice place" is just that.
> 
> Xeph and Mirada aside i do find the whole "breeders world" less emotional towards dogs and more about titles and winning. If the dog wins its all love if it doesn't and has no chance then that dog can become disappointing and i personally hate that.





Xeph said:


> I do not believe dogs are disposable either, but I've learned some very important things about myself, like that fact that taking on grown adults really isn't for me, and that I can't keep a dog I don't like just because that's the "right" thing to do. I've learned that my dream is very very important to me, and I'll do what I have to to be as sure as I can that my dogs are safe and happy and healthy. I cannot keep everything.
> 
> Some dogs will go, some dogs will stay. None of them are disposable, and each one will be placed with deep thought and consideration.


Just a logistics question: if she is dysplastic and you do decide to rehome her, how will you work out dealing with her potential medical expenses? Would you and/or the breeder make a commitment to pay for her future hip replacements (and other treatment), if they are needed? Or would you try to find someone who will adopt her “as-is”, knowing about the state of her hips?

I'm also curious (sorry if you already answered this elsewhere) about what new information you may have found out about Mirada's dam's hips in light of this discovery. Has your breeder received the OFA results yet?

Sorry if these questions are too prying. Good luck to you and to Mirada.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

OMG - how did I miss this till now?!?! Holy crap! I'm so sorry to hear this! HUGS to you!



grab said:


> I think I am the only one who took the comment as I think it was intended. I didn't assume she couldn't look at Mirada because she was disappointed in her, but rather that it reminded her of a sad situation.





Laurelin said:


> I have heard so many people berate breeders for rehoming dogs that don't work out. I won't go into the details of why Summer was rehomed to me (it's a very very personal story that's not mine to share), but I will say that I have never seen someone agonize over a dog like her breeder did. She loved Summer incredibly but at the same time Summer was a very painful reminder of some things. In those situations it's just not fair to keep the dog imo. In the end it was much better for Summer AND the breeder to rehome her.
> 
> That is so incredibly different from 'giving up on your dog' or 'dumping her'.


DF REALLY needs a "like" button!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Or would you try to find someone who will adopt her “as-is”, knowing about the state of her hips?


This. But she'd also go with the understanding that as long as she is kept *active* and she's not allowed to just lay around on the couch, she may not need one. She could not and would not go to anybody that would turn her into a couch potato. Aside from it being bad for her overall physical health, Mirada is the kind of dog that needs to be doing things. She is not content to lie about day after day doing nothing. She loves to learn and discover new things, and she's a very, very happy worker.

i *think* the breeder finally sent in her rads, but i haven't been able to contact her due to moving. i did find out that Mirada's grandsire is OFA Good on his hip scores. Grandma has one hip that wouldn't pass due to injury as a puppy.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

Xeph said:


> This. But she'd also go with the understanding that as long as she is kept *active* and she's not allowed to just lay around on the couch, she may not need one. She could not and would not go to anybody that would turn her into a couch potato. Aside from it being bad for her overall physical health, Mirada is the kind of dog that needs to be doing things. She is not content to lie about day after day doing nothing. She loves to learn and discover new things, and she's a very, very happy worker.
> 
> i *think* the breeder finally sent in her rads, but i haven't been able to contact her due to moving. i did find out that Mirada's grandsire is OFA Good on his hip scores. Grandma has one hip that wouldn't pass due to injury as a puppy.


Thank you for responding. It sounds like even if you do have to place her elsewhere, you'll know exactly what to look for in a new home. Good luck again, to you and her!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Well that news sucks anyway you look at it. I do however give you all the world of credit for saying " I won't breed a dog that is not up to my standards" and sticking to it. It it those breeders that got lax on things like hips that have caused this problem in the first place. It is heartbreaking for all owners whether they had plans to breed or not. I hope that Mirada can manage to stay sound enough for you to do some performance events with. If she has the drive and focus that you describe she might be your Utility dog. If she can't do the jumping, she might at least be a great exhibition dog that won't lie down on the job.  What ever she turns out to be, I hope that you can find peace in knowing that YOU will do everything you can for her and be happy with her successes.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She got her first RN leg today with a score of 85 xD

We'll continue herding once we're more settled in here, and i'll be training her in agility, but for trialing she'll be limited to AKC preferred. For a little more "hardcore" stuff that's safe for her, she'll run in NADAC (tunnelers and the like)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> She got her first RN leg today with a score of 95 xD
> 
> We'll continue herding once we're more settled in here, and i'll be training her in agility, but for trialing she'll be limited to AKC preferred. For a little more "hardcore" stuff that's safe for her, she'll run in NADAC (tunnelers and the like)


Congrats on the RN leg.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Thanks ^_^


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

How tall is she at the withers Xeph? Just curious as to what she'd be jumping in Preferred (probably 16?)

And congrats on the RN leg!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She's 23", so she'd be jumping 20" in preferred :-/


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Ah well, like I said wayyy earlier in the thread, it'll probably be fine!

Also, there's TONS of NADAC out in mid/west PA, if I remember correctly.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

WHOO HOO!! Mouse could participate too, then!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

How is she Moving Xeph? Is Conformation out of the question?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She's moving great. in terms of how she FEELS physically, she's normal. Showing her is a matter of ethics for me, as opposed to her current state of pain (which is none).

She was just tearing around the yard like a mad woman a couple minutes ago.

Somebody suggested i try to put a major reserve on her to get her mom's ROM, but i really don't feel right using a skeletally unsound animal to obtain a production title for her mother. i expect others to show sound dogs, and feel it a bit hypocritical to not do the same.

With the way she's acting and moving and working right now, i can see several years ahead where she'd have no issues.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> She's moving great. in terms of how she FEELS physically, she's normal. Showing her is a matter of ethics for me, as opposed to her current state of pain (which is none).
> 
> She was just tearing around the yard like a mad woman a couple minutes ago.
> 
> ...


Just looked up the shows up there.... Wish you had put her in front of Mrs Smith..... Just to see what she thought of her......She likes a good moving dog....

You know she may never have an issue..... I got a ten year old Lab with crap for hips.... He is sitting on the picnic table out back right now.... He has ZERO issues.... Good diet, right exercise. keep her lean and in shape.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Xeph said:


> She's 23", so she'd be jumping 20" in preferred :-/


CPE she could jump 16" if you were so inclined


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yeah, JB, but i don't regret pulling her. if i show her here and there, i'll try her. i showed a male to BOW under her though.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Congratulations on start of RN, RN today the world tomorrow. (hey you never know)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I don't think I will show under Mrs. Smith ever again. Her husband yes, but not her.


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