# E-collar



## D.C.

Hi folks, I have a question that I can't seem to wrap my head around. I am getting ready to train a 9month old Bernese. This is not a question of training, it's more of a , I don't know, off the wall question. 
I know you condition the dog pretty much with the come command, AFTER, the dog knows it. I understand that fully. But if after the end of the training, the dog knows perfectly one tap means turn,look at me, and get your butt back here, and then how do they separate a tap saying to sit when she stubbornly takes forever to get around to your command. Yet the one tap is also good for her to come back in a instance when you use it as a backup for your come command that is out of hearing distancing. Does all that make sense.?


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## BKaymuttleycrew

What doesn't make sense is using an electric shock to train your dog to do anything. If your dog is "stubbornly" taking 'forever' to respond to you & your cues (or commands, if you prefer) I'd stop with the 'tap' and start to figure out a better way to communicate & improve my relationship with the dog.


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## D.C.

The dog knows how to sit, but doesn't want to.The main question is regarding the dog knowing the difference of the recall with a tap, and enforcing a KNOWN command with the same tap. That is what is confusing to me.


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## storyist

If you want advice on how to zap your dog into obedience, you probably need to find another forum. There are a couple of pro-shock people here, but they aren't winning hearts and minds.


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## pandora

Zapping a 9 month old pup to make it sit????
Sorry but any fool can train a sit without the use of barbaric training aids like an e collar.
You need to find a decent positive trainer to help you get rid of that awful thing and learn some 21st century techniques.


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## LittleFr0g

D.C. said:


> The dog knows how to sit, but doesn't want to.The main question is regarding the dog knowing the difference of the recall with a tap, and enforcing a KNOWN command with the same tap. That is what is confusing to me.


If your dog isn’t sitting, she either does NOT know the command as well as you think she does, you haven’t made it rewarding enough, or you’ve failed to properly fade out the reward. The answer will never be to try to shock the poor dog into obedience


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## petpeeve

D.C. said:


> Does all that make sense.?


Unfortunately, no it doesn't. But I'll take a shot at offering my nickel's worth of advice anyway.



D.C. said:


> The dog knows how to sit, but doesn't want to.


Your dog is still a puppy. She doesn't know sit. If she truly did know, she would comply. 

Simply put ... for the most part, dogs are inherently hardwired to please us. All it takes for you to achieve compliance is to have understanding and compassion, utilize proper motivation, and possess a modicum of mechanical / training skills. This is the basic recipe for success. Repetition and consistency are important too, but punishment of any type is NEVER required. Nor recommended by me.

Technically speaking now, your dog has actually learned that the "sit" cue has become what's known as a conditioned punisher. She is confused and likely scared, because when she hears the word "sit" it merely predicts that a shock is imminent and forthcoming. The intended connection between hearing the cue and completing the sit behaviour is not being made. The reluctance or confusion one might see is often misinterpreted as the dog being 'stubborn' when in fact she is not ... she Just. Doesn't. Know. ... and she is afraid to make any type of a move for fear of it being the one that brings pain or discomfort.



D.C. said:


> The main question is regarding the dog knowing the difference of the recall with a tap, and enforcing a KNOWN command with the same tap. That is what is confusing to me


If you think _you're_ confused, just imagine how your dog feels.


I suggest you give up on the entire notion of using punishment to train your pup. Adopt a strictly 'positive-reinforcement-only' training mentality. There are plenty of resources readily available at your fingertips these days to help and guide you. And then, go right back to square one and start over again.


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## LMH1012

Shock collar training.

1). Put collar around your neck - yours - not the dog's.
2). Hand someone else the remote.
3). Ask that person to "train" you using a 2nd language - one you don't understand.

What do you _mean_, no? It's good enough for the dog, isn't it?


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## D.C.

Whoa. Hang on a second. I was just asking a question about e-collar training. I don't even own one. I was merely asking . I just could not comphend the one tap that others talk about. I would NEVER, teach my dog a command using as you say, a foreign language, such as a stim. I just didn't know if , after she KNOWS the word sit, does it every time, except when she's excited, how do I correct that. I may have come off as one of these naive people that think a shock collar is for training the command, it is not, therefore I apologize.


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## BKaymuttleycrew

D.C. said:


> Whoa. Hang on a second. I was just asking a question about e-collar training. I don't even own one. I was merely asking . I just could not comphend the one tap that others talk about. I would NEVER, teach my dog a command using as you say, a foreign language, such as a stim. I just didn't know if , after she KNOWS the word sit, does it every time, except when she's excited, how do I correct that. I may have come off as one of these naive people that think a shock collar is for training the command, it is not, therefore I apologize.


I'm very glad to hear that you don't own & are not using a shock collar on your pup. 

To address your question, if she is too excited to 'sit' then you need to correct the _environment_, not the puppy. What is she excited about? What is she doing that you would prefer she be sitting? Too many variables to give a specific answer, but generally speaking this means that she has been introduced to a distraction that is too high for her current level of training. You might need to create more distance from the distraction, if possible, depending on what it is, where you are, etc... Practice that 'sit' under lower levels of distraction & then _very_ gradually increase until she is all the way at your goal of being able to sit under these exciting circumstances.


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## LMH1012

D.C. said:


> Whoa. Hang on a second. I was just asking a question about e-collar training. I don't even own one. I was merely asking . I just could not comphend the one tap that others talk about. I would NEVER, teach my dog a command using as you say, a foreign language, such as a stim. I just didn't know if , after she KNOWS the word sit, does it every time, except when she's excited, how do I correct that. I may have come off as one of these naive people that think a shock collar is for training the command, it is not, therefore I apologize.


The foreign language to a dog -, is English or the owner's primary language. Not the e-collar. It would be like your French, Spanish or German teacher zapping you when you got your Q'uelles mixed up with your je's. Wilkommen mixed up with Bonjour.

This is the second time I've merely suggested that the owner wears the e-collar themselves and gives a second person the remote, and the second time the reply is in the defensive. No one ever got defensive when it was merely suggested they try positive reinforcement on themselves. To me, that speaks volumes. 

I'm glad you're not going to do it.


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## Deacon.dog

Send me a private message Op


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## 3GSD4IPO

D.C. said:


> Hi folks, I have a question that I can't seem to wrap my head around. I am getting ready to train a 9month old Bernese. This is not a question of training, it's more of a , I don't know, off the wall question.
> I know you condition the dog pretty much with the come command, AFTER, the dog knows it. I understand that fully. But if after the end of the training, the dog knows perfectly one tap means turn,look at me, and get your butt back here, and then how do they separate a tap saying to sit when she stubbornly takes forever to get around to your command. Yet the one tap is also good for her to come back in a instance when you use it as a backup for your come command that is out of hearing distancing. Does all that make sense.?


I did not read a single response as most here are so anti-e collar they cannot think of how to work with one. I use one to train to a fairly high level. 

First, before using any punishment for any disobedience the handler must teach the dog HOW to respond to a command cue and the must give the dog reason to WANT to respond to the command cue and then must repeat both HOW to and WANT to in many different locations. Positive reinforcement and food work good to TEACH a command cue and balls/toys serve to build speed and drive and WANT to once the dog learns HOW to. Dogs do not generalize behavior well so whatever cue you are teaching needs to be retaught in many locations so the dog can generalize it. IOW's Sit is the house is great. Take the dog to the yard, and the dog does not sit. Re-teach it in the yard. Go out front on the sidewalk. Reteach it there. Now go to the park. Reteach it there.. It takes about 20 different locations to teach a dog to generalize a command. Once you have that you add distractions and you may have to reteach under distraction. In TEACHING HOW TO and WANT TO there is NO PUNISHMENT AT ALL. 

Using the e collar for recall is what most pet dog owners use an e collar for. After training this correctly in an enclosed area so the dog understands NEVER to ignore a recall command, the e collar allows dogs to have hikes with their owners off leash. Most pet dog owners that is as far as it goes. And, for most pet dog owners that is as far as it should EVER go. Just remember that you may need to start this in the house, in the enclosed and fenced yard and then in another enclosed area so the dog "gets it." When the dog gets to you make being with your SAFE and FUN and have lots of REALLY GOOD FOOD like Roast Beef. IOW's being next to you is the best place to be ever. 

I use the e collar in other training but not a whole lot because we already have "want to." I NEVER use an e collar for sit. It can make the dog aversive to sitting. In fact, in what I do I have to walk down the field with the dog focused on me, head up looking at me and walking next to me and then I say "sit" and I do not hesitate or stop and the dog sits (called the sit out of motion and it looks like this after training it by stopping). I have seen the use of the e collar trying to get a faster sit. The result is a dog that either just keeps walking or a dog that stands and you can lose the sit out of motion altogether. There is insufficient DRIVE to overcome the negative (before e collars there was often a collar jerk to get the sit faster). All this makes the sit slower. This is NOT a place for an e collar stim. Just walk a little slower and then when the dog sits walk back to the dog and pay it with a ball either straight up over the dog's head or tossed behind the dog. NO E COLLAR as it is inappropriate for the sit. In fact, for pet dogs other than recall I would not use an e collar for basic commands such as down, off, go to bed, leave it and so forth. 

I WOULD use an e collar on a pet dog to create aversions to doing some behaviors. Killing snakes in country with poisonous snakes? E collar is appropriate.. Chasing livestock? If the dog will not call off (recall) E collar is appropriate. Chasing people on Bikes or children? If the dog won't call off immediately, E collar is appropriate. In the snake situation you are creating fear of snakes. In the other two situations you are correcting for not recalling. It is unlikely you can create an aversion to livestock/children/bikes that will work without you being there so, instead, you are reinforcing the recall. And even in this you must be careful because an e collar can create a situation where the dog is so afraid of kids or bikes that the dog will attack out of fear (this is why you need to understand dogs and most pet dog owners do not.. so get help from someone who REALLY knows what they are doing.. and in my experience there are about 10 people in the entire US that know what they are doing so good luck with that). 

I HAVE used an e collar on a dog that is in HIGH drive working in bite/protection work. I HAVE used it for various issues in secondary obedience of for not "outing" (letting go) as appropriate (also in Protection work). Pet dog owners are not doing this sort of work and pet dogs are not in high drive like the dogs that do this work. I have used an e collar for inattentiveness when I have asked for competition level heeling but, again, this is not a useful exercise for most pet dog owners.

I will put it this way. If you are using an e collar to keep your dog out of the garbage or from jumping on the counter or jumping on people then you are doing it wrong.


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## D.C.

Deacon.dog said:


> Send me a private message Op


Did.


3GSD4IPO said:


> I did not read a single response as most here are so anti-e collar they cannot think of how to work with one. I use one to train to a fairly high level.
> 
> First, before using any punishment for any disobedience the handler must teach the dog HOW to respond to a command cue and the must give the dog reason to WANT to respond to the command cue and then must repeat both HOW to and WANT to in many different locations. Positive reinforcement and food work good to TEACH a command cue and balls/toys serve to build speed and drive and WANT to once the dog learns HOW to. Dogs do not generalize behavior well so whatever cue you are teaching needs to be retaught in many locations so the dog can generalize it. IOW's Sit is the house is great. Take the dog to the yard, and the dog does not sit. Re-teach it in the yard. Go out front on the sidewalk. Reteach it there. Now go to the park. Reteach it there.. It takes about 20 different locations to teach a dog to generalize a command. Once you have that you add distractions and you may have to reteach under distraction. In TEACHING HOW TO and WANT TO there is NO PUNISHMENT AT ALL.
> 
> Using the e collar for recall is what most pet dog owners use an e collar for. After training this correctly in an enclosed area so the dog understands NEVER to ignore a recall command, the e collar allows dogs to have hikes with their owners off leash. Most pet dog owners that is as far as it goes. And, for most pet dog owners that is as far as it should EVER go. Just remember that you may need to start this in the house, in the enclosed and fenced yard and then in another enclosed area so the dog "gets it." When the dog gets to you make being with your SAFE and FUN and have lots of REALLY GOOD FOOD like Roast Beef. IOW's being next to you is the best place to be ever.
> 
> I use the e collar in other training but not a whole lot because we already have "want to." I NEVER use an e collar for sit. It can make the dog aversive to sitting. In fact, in what I do I have to walk down the field with the dog focused on me, head up looking at me and walking next to me and then I say "sit" and I do not hesitate or stop and the dog sits (called the sit out of motion and it looks like this after training it by stopping). I have seen the use of the e collar trying to get a faster sit. The result is a dog that either just keeps walking or a dog that stands and you can lose the sit out of motion altogether. There is insufficient DRIVE to overcome the negative (before e collars there was often a collar jerk to get the sit faster). All this makes the sit slower. This is NOT a place for an e collar stim. Just walk a little slower and then when the dog sits walk back to the dog and pay it with a ball either straight up over the dog's head or tossed behind the dog. NO E COLLAR as it is inappropriate for the sit. In fact, for pet dogs other than recall I would not use an e collar for basic commands such as down, off, go to bed, leave it and so forth.
> 
> I WOULD use an e collar on a pet dog to create aversions to doing some behaviors. Killing snakes in country with poisonous snakes? E collar is appropriate.. Chasing livestock? If the dog will not call off (recall) E collar is appropriate. Chasing people on Bikes or children? If the dog won't call off immediately, E collar is appropriate. In the snake situation you are creating fear of snakes. In the other two situations you are correcting for not recalling. It is unlikely you can create an aversion to livestock/children/bikes that will work without you being there so, instead, you are reinforcing the recall. And even in this you must be careful because an e collar can create a situation where the dog is so afraid of kids or bikes that the dog will attack out of fear (this is why you need to understand dogs and most pet dog owners do not.. so get help from someone who REALLY knows what they are doing.. and in my experience there are about 10 people in the entire US that know what they are doing so good luck with that).
> 
> I HAVE used an e collar on a dog that is in HIGH drive working in bite/protection work. I HAVE used it for various issues in secondary obedience of for not "outing" (letting go) as appropriate (also in Protection work). Pet dog owners are not doing this sort of work and pet dogs are not in high drive like the dogs that do this work. I have used an e collar for inattentiveness when I have asked for competition level heeling but, again, this is not a useful exercise for most pet dog owners.
> 
> I will put it this way. If you are using an e collar to keep your dog out of the garbage or from jumping on the counter or jumping on people then you are doing it wrong.


I so thank you for not ripping my head off, but just explaining things for me to understand. I did not realize that when taught sit in the house and in the yard that it would still need to be shown in other locations as well, that makes perfect sense. I am following Larry Krohn's videos and I guess maybe I didn't understand that the e-collar could be used to enforce, not taught, but to enforce a known command by the use of a tap. Is this not so?


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## 3GSD4IPO

D.C. said:


> Did.
> 
> I so thank you for not ripping my head off, but just explaining things for me to understand. I did not realize that when taught sit in the house and in the yard that it would still need to be shown in other locations as well, that makes perfect sense. I am following Larry Krohn's videos and I guess maybe I didn't understand that the e-collar could be used to enforce, not taught, but to enforce a known command by the use of a tap. Is this not so?


Correct. It is only used to enforce a known command and it should be set high enough to be "enough" but never so high as to be "too much." 

In a dog that has been trained well using R+ and clarity with good timing, the e collar stim is used RARELY. If you have to use it a LOT you need to train more.

I just glanced at the videos you are watching. NOTE that the first several that come up are about giving the dog off leash freedom. That is enough for most people. You want to do more? Find a top IGP/IPO/Schutzhund obedience trainer to help you in person. 

[Quote deleted because it included a spam link. Please don't quote spam.]

The following discussion is well beyond what most pet dog owners need to know, but here it is.

Collar stims vary between collars. For a dog that is very actively high drive (some nerve and maybe even a dog that leaks occasionally) you want a collar that delivers something like a single tap. For a confident dog that is less active (but still has plenty of drive) a collar that delivers something akin to a buzz is more effective. 

In all of this, if delivered correctly on a dog that is well trained, a tap from an e collar can INCREASE drive and response and eagerness. Of course this is helped by always rewarding with 3X the energy of the the correction the instant the dog IS correct. 

The other thing I often see in highly trained dogs is the handler using the e collar as a crutch.. such that when removed the desired behavior drops. 

For MOST Pet Dog owners the e collar is used to train an instantaneous recall reliability such that the dog can be taken on off leash hikes. And for MOST Pet Dog owners that is the entirety of what they need to know and the ONLY time that an e collar should be used. For any dog that is NEVER off leash, I would not use an e collar for anything.


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## Deacon.dog

^ What E-collars do you use?

I personally do like the Mini educator, the dogtra, and I've even used the sport dog brand all with good results from the collar.


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## 3GSD4IPO

I do not like the second brand mentioned. The stims can be all over the map. PM me for my opinion since I do not think promoting a brand is allowed????


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## RonE

3GSD4IPO said:


> PM me for my opinion since I do not think promoting a brand is allowed????


You can mention a brand as long as we have no reason to think you are not directly involved in it and are expecting no financial gain.


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## Deacon.dog

LMH1012 said:


> Shock collar training.
> 
> 1). Put collar around your neck - yours - not the dog's.
> 2). Hand someone else the remote.
> 3). Ask that person to "train" you using a 2nd language - one you don't understand.
> 
> What do you _mean_, no? It's good enough for the dog, isn't it?


_E COLLAR training_

1. Ok, I have. It doesn't hurt. It feels like my phone vibrating in my back pocket.
2. Meh
3. I am learning a second langauge! Do you know that dogs are trained to understand the E-collar and E-collars aren't meant to be put on and then poked all willy nilly?


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## LMH1012

Deacon.dog said:


> _E COLLAR training_
> 
> 1. Ok, I have. It doesn't hurt. It feels like my phone vibrating in my back pocket.
> 2. Meh
> 3. I am learning a second langauge! Do you know that dogs are trained to understand the E-collar and E-collars aren't meant to be put on and then poked all willy nilly?


So you wouldn't hand someone else the remote?

Would you be happy being zapped when you got a word in the second language wrong?

I don't care whether or not dogs are trained to understand the e-collar. They have no place in modern dog training.


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## Sugar & Latte

Deacon.dog said:


> 1. Ok, I have. It doesn't hurt. It feels like my phone vibrating in my back pocket.


If it doesn't hurt then why would the dog try to avoid it?


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## BKaymuttleycrew

One of my favorite thoughts on the subject of shock/e-collars:

To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:
A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
A thorough understanding of learning theory.
Impeccable timing.
And if you have those three things, you don't need a shock collar.
by Dr. Ian Dunbar

Not to mention that it has been scientifically proven that training with one is detrimental to the dog. (I've already posted a link to numerous articles in a different thread on this subject.) And, yes, I know that proponents will argue "You don't _train_ behaviors with one, you simply correct the dog with it after he already knows the commands & _refuses_ to comply." Yeah, I get it. It's a lot easier to blame the dog for his 'mistakes' and punish him into submission than it is to actually figure out what went wrong, why there was a breakdown in communication and come up with a modified training plan to fix the issue. Much easier to just push a button & get "results". Problem is, dogs aren't smart phones that can be programmed with a button to do exactly what you want when you want. They are living, breathing, sentient beings with a mind of their own, and (IMO) they shouldn't be treated like robots who are here to do our bidding without question.


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## petpeeve

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> [...] they shouldn't be treated like robots who are here to do our bidding without question.


Unless, of course, you're an IPO handler soooo hung up on outscoring the other competitors ... strictly for the sake of recreation and / or ego..

Then it's fine.


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## petpeeve

Deacon.dog said:


> It feels like my phone vibrating in my back pocket.


Yep. And after a couple of attempts to contact me ... if I continue to ignore, the phone starts to fry my ass. 

Stings.


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## LMH1012

petpeeve said:


> Yep. And after a couple of attempts to contact me ... if I continue to ignore, the phone starts to fry my ass.
> 
> Stings.


Exactly. 
Recall dog.
Dog ignores recall? Zap dog.
Dog doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial. 
Dog still doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial even more.
Dog legs it in the opposite direction? Run after it, zapping away at maximum level as if you're a TV addict running after your telly, looking slightly ridiculous. 
Find dog waiting on porch (if you're lucky).


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## Deacon.dog

Sugar & Latte said:


> If it doesn't hurt then why would the dog try to avoid it?


My dog doesn't aviod it, he just gets distracted and the buzz means hey dude over here.


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## 3GSD4IPO

RonE said:


> You can mention a brand as long as we have no reason to think you are not directly involved in it and are expecting no financial gain.


Thank you for the explanation.

With that here goes:
My two preferred brands currently are E collar Technologies and Garmin Pro series (formerly Tritronics Pro 100 or 500). They stim differently. The E collar technologies is more of a rapid fire buzz. The Garmin is more like a single poke. The dog's basic temperament and response is the one you use. 

Other brands have a tendency to be inconsistent and consistency of stim level is VERY important. 

On my current dog I use an E collar Technologies Pro 900 double box. Yes. Two stim boxes on the same collar. By using two boxes you can use much less power and get a better response when the dog is in HIGH DRIVE. Most pet dogs never SEE high drive other than a squirrel or a deer. For SOME dogs you can train all day long with the best food rewards in the world and get a consistent and beautiful recall but when they see a squirrel or deer or Porcupine or Skunk, all bets are off. The e collar can be a life saver in those situations with an off leash dog. The other thing the e collar can give a pet dog is freedom on a hike to BE off leash as, PROPERLY TRAINED with an e colar the dog will recall reliably. If done right, you MIGHT even create and aversion to those creatures but in a dog with great prey drive and a genetically independent nature it is unlikely. IOW's the Hound will chase the rabbit/raccoon/deer etc. because that is what hounds were BRED to do and the intervening road with fast moving traffic does not even ENTER their mind. 

Again, *the e collar is NOT a teaching tool*.* It is NOT USED to teach a NEW BEHAVOR RESPONSE to a CUE*.  It is a reinforcement tool to be used AFTER the dog has been taught and has been taught in MANY locations and has the behavior learned thoroughly. The e collar is the "reminder" if a situation arises that has the dog blowing off the command. 

Once a dog is trained the e collar is on but rarely used. I was told by an top of the line K9 trainer and sport dog trainer to think of it as a gun with one bullet in any given training session. You work the dog knowing you have an issue with one cue being blown off when the dog is in drive. So with the e collar in place you use it when the dog blows that one command in the series. That is it. You have ONE CHANCE in that session. Again, this is about dogs in drive and most pet dogs are NOT in DRIVE. 

As Deacon Dogs notes, putting the e collar on himself, it is like the phone buzzing. Properly adjusted to match the level of drive the dog is in the dog should feel it and respond (ear twitch, head movement is what we see) but should NEVER yelp. The higher the drive the higher the stim to get the dog's attention. 

People who are anti e collar don't know about dogs in HIGH DRIVE and the need for obedience when in high drive. Remember, the REWARD to a dog in DRIVE is DRIVE SATISFACTION. So, it is really the Premack principle. The dog must do what you want to obtain drive satisfaction. The e collar is used to remind the dog in HIGH DRIVE he/she must do as asked first and when that is accomplished he/she will IMMEDIATELY get drive satisfaction as the reward. 

This means a dog in prey drive, the satisfaction is to catch the prey. The PREY can be a ball thrown. A dog that is hungry and loves to eat is in food drive and the satisfaction is food (and most dogs have a degree of food drive so we use it to train). A dog in hunt drive has his satisfaction satiated by hunting such as trailing and in the end combining hunt and prey, finding and sometimes catching what is being hunted. A dog in fight drive WANTS the fight and drive satisfaction is in actually fighting. A dog in Defense Drive is satisfied by scaring off that which it is defending itself from (trust me, no dog is defending YOU the dog is defending itself first and you just happen to be there). Pack drive is the desire to partner and some breeds are bred to have less of this (hounds that work independently) and others have a greater degree of this (retrievers come to mind). Pack drive makes a dog want to be with you and work with you. All these drives work at different levels and in different combinations with some greater than others depending on the dog, the genetics, the situation and the behavior required.


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## 3GSD4IPO

LMH1012 said:


> Exactly.
> Recall dog.
> Dog ignores recall? Zap dog.
> Dog doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial.
> Dog still doesn't respond? Ramp up the dial even more.
> Dog legs it in the opposite direction? Run after it, zapping away at maximum level as if you're a TV addict running after your telly, looking slightly ridiculous.
> Find dog waiting on porch (if you're lucky).


*THAT is NOT how to train a recall with an e collar. EVER.* YOU are a BAD TRAINER if that is what you would do or how you think it is done. 

YOU would not be a candidate for an E collar on a dog.


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## RonE

3GSD4IPO said:


> *THAT is NOT how to train a recall with an e collar. EVER.* YOU are a BAD TRAINER if that is what you would do or how you think it is done. YOU would not be a candidate for an E collar on a dog.


I think I detected a note of sarcasm in LMH1012's post. Sometimes we forget that it's hard to convey sarcasm or irony in a forum post.


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## Deacon.dog

If you are anti-ecollar and think a e-collar is abusive, or gives _zaps_ (such a weird word..) then you are the uneducated one and I don't want to hear it.

If you haven't put a e-collar of a well known and trusted brand on your wrist, or neck, then I don't want to hear from you that it hurts.

Sorry, but all of you anti-ecollar people are missing out, and so is your dog. I don't know a single other tool that can save your dogs life in a click of a button. Really, I don't? I cannot imagine the fear i'd have if I didn't have the back up of an e-collar to recall my dog. Its SO unsafe to have a dog offleash without one, there is NOTHING and i mean NOTHING you can do to get your off leash dog back without one. Even the most well trained dog has its off days, therefore a e-collar isn't a form of "not knowing how to train a dog" or "dog not trained well enough, lol e-collar trainers dogs don't know nothin". I promise you my dog is very well behaved, but like everybody else, DOGS HAVE OFF DAYS, and a e-collar might as well save your dogs life on one of those off days.


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## RonE

This thread is becoming close to useless and has passed the point of discussion. Time to shut it down before someone gets a time-out.


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