# Extreme Nail Cutting?



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Someone I was talking to the other day, said that if your dog has really long nails, you can get the vet to cut them way back past the quick and cauterize them. She says someone she knew had it done while her dog was under anaesthesia for tooth cleaning... is this a common acceptable thing? I'd never heard of it before!


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I've fostered dogs from the shelter that needed to have this done while they were under anesthesia. The vet usually tries to do it when the dog has to be under for another major procedure like spay/neuter or dental cleaning. I'm not sure they would be willing to risk anesthesia for just nails alone, unless they were so bad that the dog was not walking properly.

With the dogs that I've cared for, the procedure was done with the spay/neuter, The dog needs to be watched very closely for the first few dyas...no licking, biting of their feet...and on pain meds as needed.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Yep, its usually called a "show trim." I wouldn't go as far as saying its a common thing, but its done often, for various reasons. I really don't see a need for it though, as you can get the nails short in a matter of a month if you use a dremel every other day. The vets I used to work at would put them under anesthesia, cut them way back, then just pack quickstop in them..no actual cauterizing, though I am sure that vets each have their own way of doing it. As was stated, you have to watch them closely, as they can easily get infected, and have to be very sore after having that done on all feet. It wasn't cheap where I worked...the cost, not including the sedation, was $86, and that was 7 years ago.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

do you think it would be a thing to do if you had a highly "nail clipping" agressive dog. like a friend of mne has. they bring their English coonhound mix into the vet once or twice a year to get him put under so the vet can clip his nails.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

There is a risk every time you anesthesize an animal that they can have complications. Our vet would not agree to put out an animal for an elective procedure because owners wouldn't bring the dog in monthly to be muzzled and clipped.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I told my friend to buy a muzzle and we should get a few experianced people together to hold her dog down to do the nail clipping without anesthesize. the dog is highly agressive as I said and needs multipl people to hold him for nails. They used to bring the dog to a groomers but they were told after three sessions that the groomer wont allow the dog to come back because he is too difficult. He is about 90 pounds and very healthy looking. His owner tells me that he growls at her when she takes out the nail clippers. 

I know there are ways you can descensitize the dog to the clipper but his nails are already making his toes splay apart and his dew claws are almost wraped compleatly around. and I don't think we have time right now to try and train him to like it. 

I Really want to clip his nails I'm just afraid he will pass out or something from the ordeal.

my dogs get their nails cliped at least twice a month and all my dogs are good with the clipper so this is new for me to deal with.

EDIT:

He is ONLY agressive for nail clipping. and I know it's because he's a dominant bull headed dog who needs a stronger handler than his current family but I can't see me telling them to get rid of him after they have owned him for 8 years


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

At the shelter where I volunteer we routinely have dogs with these issues. A good basket muzzle and perhaps an oral sedative from the vet helps immensely to get the job done. 

Also, a lot of it is in the way you approach the situation. I have worked on many dogs that others have refused. If you walk into the situation with a feeling of dread and fear, the dog picks up on that. If you walk in demanding respect (and I don't mean physical abuse of the dog) and with an air of confidence (ok, I get more confidence once I've put the muzzle on!) it can really change the entire outcome. Also, removing the dog from his territory for the procedure may also help. Have them bring the dog to your house, where he is not on his own turf.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

I agree with Briteday. They need to learn how (from a good trainer) to teach the dog how to stand for nail trims. Its their fault the dog is this way, even it they didn't start the problems, the have let them continue. I feel strongly about dogs tolerating a simple procedure like a nail trim, and it amazes me how many dogs are "naughty" for it because their owners let them get away with it, or inadvertantly teach them bad behavior. IMO there is no excuse for it. No different than letting your child throw a knock down temper tantrum at the store, but this is worse because dogs can seriously harm someone. I think that putting your dog thru the risks of unnecessary anesthesia is lazy and neglectful for letting the nails get so bad in the first place. A nail trim twice a year is NOT enough. This dog CAN be taught to behave for nail trims, but its going to take hard work on the part of his owners in order to stay safe in the meantime. 

I would start by muzzling the dog, and putting his rear end in a corner, with someone holding the leash. I would just pick up one foot, and caress his leg, (which I am sure is going to send him into a frenzy..) I would let him throw his fit, flail, growl, freak out, whatever, but I would NOT let go of that foot. As soon as he stops his tantrum, I would release the foot and praise. If you let go of the foot, he wins, and throws a bigger tantrum next time, which is what has been happening. There is no need to hold him down and cause it to be worse than it should be. Let him fight himself...just hold onto that foot, and be calm, and confidant in your soothing him. He will stop and relax when he realizes you aren't going to let go. If they work on that daily, the will be trimming nails in a week or less. If they can't do this, then they need to find a groomer or vet that can because them trying to do it, and people holding the dog down, etc. is only making it worse. The size of the dog is not an excuse either. I have done saint bernards, pyrenese, rotties, etc. that were as you described...by myself, and now they stand with no muzzle, and let me trim or dremel their nails, with no stress to themselves or me..And I am a woman, who weighs 135lbs. I commend the vet described above that refuses to do such a thing as put a dog out for a simple 45 second nail trim. Ludicrous in my mind.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

I would say briteday is giving you some excellent advice. Right on the money. Another thing I would add, is the dog highly food oriented? If so, what's his fav treat? With the muzzle on and if the dog loves hot dogs, cut the hot dogs lengthwise, turn it, and lengthwise again. That way you have 4 long strands. As one person is cutting, you could be letting the dog nibble on the hotdog strands slowly through the muzzle. And with each nail cut, you can stop feeding him and really start praising him, then start feeding again for the next nail, then stop and really praise him.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Graco22 said:


> I agree with Briteday. They need to learn how (from a good trainer) to teach the dog how to stand for nail trims. Its their fault the dog is this way, even it they didn't start the problems, the have let them continue. I feel strongly about dogs tolerating a simple procedure like a nail trim, and it amazes me how many dogs are "naughty" for it because their owners let them get away with it, or inadvertantly teach them bad behavior. IMO there is no excuse for it. No different than letting your child throw a knock down temper tantrum at the store, but this is worse because dogs can seriously harm someone. I think that putting your dog thru the risks of unnecessary anesthesia is lazy and neglectful for letting the nails get so bad in the first place. A nail trim twice a year is NOT enough. This dog CAN be taught to behave for nail trims, but its going to take hard work on the part of his owners in order to stay safe in the meantime.
> 
> I would start by muzzling the dog, and putting his rear end in a corner, with someone holding the leash. I would just pick up one foot, and caress his leg, (which I am sure is going to send him into a frenzy..) I would let him throw his fit, flail, growl, freak out, whatever, but I would NOT let go of that foot. As soon as he stops his tantrum, I would release the foot and praise. If you let go of the foot, he wins, and throws a bigger tantrum next time, which is what has been happening. There is no need to hold him down and cause it to be worse than it should be. Let him fight himself...just hold onto that foot, and be calm, and confidant in your soothing him. He will stop and relax when he realizes you aren't going to let go. If they work on that daily, the will be trimming nails in a week or less. If they can't do this, then they need to find a groomer or vet that can because them trying to do it, and people holding the dog down, etc. is only making it worse. The size of the dog is not an excuse either. I have done saint bernards, pyrenese, rotties, etc. that were as you described...by myself, and now they stand with no muzzle, and let me trim or dremel their nails, with no stress to themselves or me..And I am a woman, who weighs 135lbs. I commend the vet described above that refuses to do such a thing as put a dog out for a simple 45 second nail trim. Ludicrous in my mind.


....a week or less?.....riiiiigggght

hold on to an animals appendage while it wildly flails around? ......not only would I worry about harming my dog...but I would also worry that this would stress her out beyond belief...


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## PugChick (Nov 5, 2007)

pugmom said:


> ....a week or less?.....riiiiigggght
> 
> hold on to an animals appendage while it wildly flails around? ......not only would I worry about harming my dog...but I would also worry that this would stress her out beyond belief...


I would imagine going to the vet and being knocked out is fairly stressful also.

If you know what you're doing you can keep a hold of the leg without allowing the dog to harm itself - you don't just grab on and let the dog to death rolls! I keep the leg close to the dog's body and go with the dog as I need to - and while the first couple times can be stressful, they figure out what's up pretty fast. 

I prefer to use a combo of -R and +R on my dogs at home, but at work I can't feed treats, so it's all Graco's method. It works.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

PugChick said:


> I would imagine going to the vet and being knocked out is fairly stressful also.
> 
> If you know what you're doing you can keep a hold of the leg without allowing the dog to harm itself - you don't just grab on and let the dog to death rolls! I keep the leg close to the dog's body and go with the dog as I need to - and while the first couple times can be stressful, they figure out what's up pretty fast.
> 
> I prefer to use a combo of -R and +R on my dogs at home, but at work I can't feed treats, so it's all Graco's method. It works.


I know you can..but that is not what the post said to do
I'm also not advocating going to the vet ether for unnecessary anesthesia.....but I'm not going to force something on my dog that she is obviously terrified of..that is like putting a leash on a dog that has never walked on one...and they dragging it along w/you until it submits to walking w/you

I am going thought this w/my pug ..she hates having her nails done...we have decided not to go the vet route but have invested in a dremel...but we are going slow ....there is now way she is going to sit there and calmly let me file down her nails in the course of ONE week or less...

FYI my dogs have no problem going to the vets....they actually love it...all the tech fuss over them ...and they eat it up


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

So if your dogs like all the fuss, then that's what you need to do if you want to do it at home and save the expense. As I pointed out to the OP, a lot of it is all in the way you approach the dog and the job. Dogs will read you faster than a book. I learned this from a breeder when I had problems clipping one of my dogs. She picked up the dog matter-of-factly (no muzzle even), held her in the crook of her arm and snipped away at the nails with not much of a fuss. This was a dog that would sound off like I was ripping her leg off her body when I did it. The breeder only gave her one light tap on the nose with the hand clippers during the whole thing. I have since had success with the technique myself. I don't do the nails unless I can be in the frame of mind to approach it sensibly and without emotion. 

Graco is not advocating letting the dog flail while you handle the paw. She said to back the dog into a corner so that the rear end is confined and cannot wiggle around. Then you can work with the front end of the dog. I find with my little dogs and some small fosters it is easiest if I put them up on a table in the corner of the room so that, like Graco's suggestion, their back end is immobilized and I can work on the paw without much struggle. But attitude is everything.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

briteday said:


> So if your dogs like all the fuss, then that's what you need to do if you want to do it at home and save the expense. As I pointed out to the OP, a lot of it is all in the way you approach the dog and the job. Dogs will read you faster than a book. I learned this from a breeder when I had problems clipping one of my dogs. She picked up the dog matter-of-factly (no muzzle even), held her in the crook of her arm and snipped away at the nails with not much of a fuss. This was a dog that would sound off like I was ripping her leg off her body when I did it. The breeder only gave her one light tap on the nose with the hand clippers during the whole thing. I have since had success with the technique myself. I don't do the nails unless I can be in the frame of mind to approach it sensibly and without emotion.
> 
> Graco is not advocating letting the dog flail while you handle the paw. She said to back the dog into a corner so that the rear end is confined and cannot wiggle around. Then you can work with the front end of the dog. I find with my little dogs and some small fosters it is easiest if I put them up on a table in the corner of the room so that, like Graco's suggestion, their back end is immobilized and I can work on the paw without much struggle. But attitude is everything.


actually the post did said to let the dog flail....

I am calm w/all my dogs....I have 2 that are just fine w/nail clipping and one that hates it more then anything else ...we have been working on this ...just very very slowly


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

briteday said:


> a lot of it is all in the way you approach the dog and the job.


Absolutely. It's like my mom and her Dachshund, whenever she took out the clippers, the dog would go hide. And in order to clip the nails, her dog sounded much like she was being beaten to death. When I was on vacation, I had gone down to their house for a week to visit. My mom was telling me about how she hated getting her nails done, and they really needed to be done. Then I told her, watch this. I went to her Dach and picked her up. I asked my mom to get the clippers and start clipping while I held her. My mom could not believe it. She got to do all her nails with zero issues. It's all in how you set yourself up, it's like briteday said, they can read you like a book very fast. And when I picked her up and held her, she had the confidence in me that she was not going to get hurt, and was as gentle as a baby, licking me on the face while she was getting her nails done. And yes, her tongue is very, very long, lol. I have zero issues doing all 3 of my dogs as well.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

To clarify my previous post, yes, the dogs' rear is backed into a corner, and trust me, the dog isn't going to do a death roll. I move with the dog, but never let go of the leg. You can body block the large dogs in the meantime too as that helps them realize they are getting nowhere and relax. They are going to jump up, try to pull the leg away, and try to spin, lay down, etc. Most dogs will do this for no more than a minute. If you are firmly holding the leg, calmly talking to the dog, and waiting for them to relax, you are letting the dog teach itself..which works much better and faster than trying to force them into something. And yes, it can be done in a week,(with 15 minute training sessions daily) EASILY. I can teach dogs to stand for a nail trim in 10-15 minutes. Its all about showing them you aren't hurting them, and that its going to be ok. Its also about having the confidence...if you don't think it can be done in a week, trust me, then it won't be. If you don't know what you are doing, and are stressed, you feed that to your dog and are better to leave the trimming to a professional. I trim so many dogs' nails that the owners can't get near them with trimmers. I think so many people read WAY too much into what should be a simple procedure that every single dog in the world should have to stand calmly for one minute..its not traumatic, it shouldn't be stressful, it should be a simple task, no different than obeying any sit or lie down command. But thats just my take on it. If you live near me I would be happy for you to bring your dog to my salon, and watch while I do her nails....for free.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> Absolutely. It's like my mom and her Dachshund, whenever she took out the clippers, the dog would go hide. And in order to clip the nails, her dog sounded much like she was being beaten to death. When I was on vacation, I had gone down to their house for a week to visit. My mom was telling me about how she hated getting her nails done, and they really needed to be done. Then I told her, watch this. I went to her Dach and picked her up. I asked my mom to get the clippers and start clipping while I held her. My mom could not believe it. She got to do all her nails with zero issues. It's all in how you set yourself up, it's like briteday said, they can read you like a book very fast. And when I picked her up and held her, *she had the confidence in me that she was not going to get hurt*, and was as gentle as a baby, licking me on the face while she was getting her nails done. And yes, her tongue is very, very long, lol.


I agree w/this 100%....the dog should feel confidence in you that your not going to hurt them

but backing a fearful dog into a corner then holding on to there paw while they have their "tantrum"..sounds like a good way to get bit to me....but everyone has their own way of dealing w/their dog.....Im just saying this is not going to work w/mine.


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## PugChick (Nov 5, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I'm also not advocating going to the vet ether for unnecessary anesthesia.....but I'm not going to force something on my dog that she is obviously terrified of..that is like putting a leash on a dog that has never walked on one...and they dragging it along w/you until it submits to walking w/you


There's terrified, and there's "I don't want to and I know exactly how to make sure you don't, because everyone else lets go when I do this." 

Some are scared. I don't like forcing the scared ones, but I don't get the dog handed to me to work with for a week. I get the job done or the owner leaves all pissed off and odds are the nails will just be neglected. 

And I think you have the totally wrong picture in your head, of me grabbing a leg and not letting go and just getting the job done. This is a training tool. An example - I was working with a bratty yearling colt this afternoon. I work the horses same as the dogs - touch the leg, and don't move my hand until he's standing still. Good, now pick up the leg and let go as soon as he's standing still. Now can I hold it a little longer....? Good, now can I hold it and pick it out? Hold it and rasp it? Hold it and.... 

In 10 minutes I went from a colt that was trying to eat me (lol, I don't worry about dog bites, at least the dogs can't pick me up off the ground and shake me and throw me like the colts can!) to one that stood on a slack line with a hind foot cocked while I picked up both front feet, picked them and rasped them.

Sound like a terrified animal I forced to submit? I don't think so.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

PugChick said:


> Sound like a terrified animal I forced to submit? I don't think so.


I believe the correct term in these situations is "learned helplessness."

Here's an interesting article for pugmom:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/nailtrimming.htm


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## PugChick (Nov 5, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> I believe the correct term in these situations is "learned helplessness."


I had a post...but nevermind.

I'm not going to argue with anyone who thinks any use -R is inducing learned helplessness, or that I'm too stupid to know when a horse is stressed or not.


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## vabird (Jun 5, 2007)

Sure you can take your dog to the vet for extreme nail clipping but you better not complain about the cost. Sedating a brachycephalic, like a pug, for a nail trim, is dangerous. They really need to be under general anesthesia with an endotracheal tube in place to protect their airway. A local block should be used since this is a very painful procedure and take home meds should also be prescribed. You could be talking about a couple of hundred dollars for a nail trim.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

PugChick said:


> And I think you have the totally wrong picture in your head, of me grabbing a leg and not letting go and just getting the job done.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

pugmom said:


> ....a week or less?.....riiiiigggght
> 
> hold on to an animals appendage while it wildly flails around? ......not only would I worry about harming my dog...but I would also worry that this would stress her out beyond belief...



If the dog is being held properly at his collar, the only 'flailing' will be the dog trying to pull the foot away. You're not pulling the foot back further, or anything like that, you're just not letting go. You don't let go until he relaxes; then you can release, praise him! 

And to the 'stress' thing... A few minutes of the dog trying to figure out that he can't just pull his foot away, or be naughty, but can't, is much better, imho than sedating the dog just to get his nails trimmed. He can learn to behave, and he won't be hurt, he just won't win his 'game'.



pamperedpups said:


> I believe the correct term in these situations is "learned helplessness."
> 
> Here's an interesting article for pugmom:
> 
> http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/nailtrimming.htm


Keep in mind that training horses, and training dogs are two separate things; even if some of the techniques seem similar. With dogs, while they can bite, they can not crush your skull with one kick, or even a swing of their heads. 

And what pugchick was talking to, was not negative reinforcement at all...it's called approach and retreat...when the horse relaxes, you release any pressure and praise. Horses are prey animals and anything done to a horse that he deems scarey, or forceful can wind up with fight or flight instincts kicking in, and a handler being hurt. Good trainers work with the horse with that in mind. Pugchick's method for helping the horse understand that relaxation\give=release is right on when it comes to horses. It's done in tiny increments, usually starting with rubbing a particular area of the horse, and waiting for him to realize it's not going to hurt him, and stopping movement...then you release the pressure, which is the horse's reward. Hardly learned helplessness...horses are far from helpless.


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## JessRU09 (Aug 25, 2008)

My family owned a Rat Terrier who absolutely hated getting his nails cut. We went through all the methods suggested, he just would not allow it. He would bite, kick, pee, and scream. He was a small dog, but even my father could not hold him still enough for us to cut or dremel his nails. He would jerk his body violently, making it impossible to hold his feet steady. We tried sedatives, but they didn't work. Our only option was to have them trimmed by the vet... and it often took an entire staff to hold him in place.

When we first got Dexter, we wanted to be sure this wouldn't happen again. We did all the recommended training... touching his paws, getting him accustom to having his feet held still, rewarding him... and his first nail clipping went fine. But the second one was a nightmare. It was as if a switch went off in his head and he was terrified. We didn't hurt him at all... I know this because we didn't successfully cut any nails during his second session. He was too busy screaming and hiding. It was so bizarre.

We tried a few more times, and got very frustrated. We bought a dremel, which we couldn't even get near him with. Then one day we tried cutting them again, and I kept him busy by letting him mouth my hands a little... and it worked wonders. But that still takes two people to do.

So I came across my final solution to the problem... I get him all tired out (either from a long walk, or fetch, or tug of war). Then when he passes out, I break out the clippers and start trimming away. Most of the time he wakes up as I'm cutting a nail, and he gets a semi-concerned look on his face... but he's too tired to do anything. So I just pet him and calm him down, and he falls right back to sleep. I guess sometimes you just gotta be sneaky.


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## babysweet (Dec 11, 2008)

I too have used the methods described above when presented with an "impossible" dog. And yes, on the panicky ones as well. What it teaches them is that the faster they relax, the faster it's over, and the faster the clippers go back in the drawer. Not only that, it's followed by a "jackpot" reward - a giant handful of whatever the dog can't resist. Cheese, hotdogs, benny bullys, purebites, whatever his heart desires.

Within a half dozen sessions, there may be some residual shaking, but it generally goes by without incident, no muzzles, snip, snip, snip.

Another half dozen sessions, we have a squiggly dog who is then comfortable enough to take treats throughout the session (a truly afraid dog will not eat) and so we indulge him, followed always by the jackpot at the end. 

After this, we end up with a dog who, a block away, begins to bark with excitement, and pulls his owner all the way to the front door. The owner then ends up bringing him to us for pilling, ear cleaning, ear/eye drops, mat removal, what have you - even though technically we don't do grooming services at all!! We just hate to think about this poor dog and the poor owners who have this easily correctable rift between them and their dog, not to mention the lack of comfort the dog must experience in between trims.

What's worse, a dozen less-than comfortable sessions, improving each time, or a lifetime of RVTs pinning down a muzzled, thrashing dog or using potentially harmful sedatives and tranquilizers that only serve to worsen the situation in the dog's mind for next time?

As for veterinary surgery to remove the nails, I am in complete disagreement except in the worst cases of neglect where it is required for medical reasons.

I also think it's disgusting that it's referred to as a "show clip." If you are showing your dog, and know you'll be showing your dog, you should be caring for the nails the same way you care for his coat and general body condition. Weekly care will avoid the need for this cosmetic mutilation.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

JessRU09 said:


> We tried a few more times, and got very frustrated. We bought a dremel, which we couldn't even get near him with. Then one day we tried cutting them again, and I kept him busy by letting him mouth my hands a little... and it worked wonders. But that still takes two people to do.


I do the same thing except with a bully stick, not my hands. Works wonderfully.. my dog's chomping away and I'm dremelling her nails down.


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## JessRU09 (Aug 25, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I do the same thing except with a bully stick, not my hands. Works wonderfully.. my dog's chomping away and I'm dremelling her nails down.


We tried using probably two dozen different kinds of treats to keep him distracted. He either ate them too quickly, or they didn't hold his attention. My hands, however, he could not digest... and he couldn't avoid them, either. I'd wiggle my fingers around his tongue/lips, and he was distracted enough to let my SO clip.

Luckily, the cut-while-he's-sleeping method works, so my hands don't have to suffer.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

babysweet said:


> I also think it's disgusting that it's referred to as a "show clip." If you are showing your dog, and know you'll be showing your dog, you should be caring for the nails the same way you care for his coat and general body condition. Weekly care will avoid the need for this cosmetic mutilation.


I think the reason it's called a show trim, is because when the dog is done, the nails are as short as a show dog's nails are. Obviously, show dog's nails are trimmed/dremeled weekly to get them that short, not sedated whacked off at the vets.


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## babysweet (Dec 11, 2008)

Graco22 said:


> I think the reason it's called a show trim, is because when the dog is done, the nails are as short as a show dog's nails are. Obviously, show dog's nails are trimmed/dremeled weekly to get them that short, not sedated whacked off at the vets.


I only wish that were the case. We have at least three breeders who use these "show trims" through their vets for their show dogs. The last time I dealt with one of them (I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with them anymore) the standard poodle breeder was talking about doing it herself, at home!! Her follow up was "I wish I didn't have to do it, but it's a specialty and there's a $2,000 purse!"

Hmmm... could you pay me $20,000 to cosmetically mutilate my dog, causing her unnecessary pain and suffering and potential infection? Ummm.... HECK, NO. Sorry, no dice.

Suggesting that some of these dogs don't receive these clips is like suggesting people aren't dying retrievers brown noses black.

Sorry, but I just get really worked up when it comes to the mutilation of animals for beauty or personal gain.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

babysweet said:


> I only wish that were the case. We have at least three breeders who use these "show trims" through their vets for their show dogs. The last time I dealt with one of them (I absolutely refuse to have anything to do with them anymore) the standard poodle breeder was talking about doing it herself, at home!! Her follow up was "I wish I didn't have to do it, but it's a specialty and there's a $2,000 purse!"
> 
> Hmmm... could you pay me $20,000 to cosmetically mutilate my dog, causing her unnecessary pain and suffering and potential infection? Ummm.... HECK, NO. Sorry, no dice.
> 
> ...



Well, that is really too bad. I work with many breeders, of many different breeds, and I have never known one that has the vet do the "show trims" on the nails. Most of them couldn't afford that anyway, as they aren't rich people, and having alot of show dogs and breeders costs alot of money. I certainly wouldn't consider her a good breeder, and I do think (hope) that its not the norm for breeders to do that. When I worked at a vet clinic, we never had a breeder come in for the show trim..but lots of pet people. What a shame..I don't think a vet should even do it unless its a dire situation...same as declawing cats...they shouldn't be doing it and advocating it like SO many do. But money is the almighty.


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## PugChick (Nov 5, 2007)

Love's_Sophie said:


> And what pugchick was talking to, was not negative reinforcement at all...it's called approach and retreat...when the horse relaxes, you release any pressure and praise.


Actually, yes it is -R. Apply pressure, and release pressure when the desired behavior is given - in this case relaxing or standing still.  It works the same if it's a horse, dog or cat - my 6 wk old kittens just got this same lessons in having their paws held. 

I think you're confusing negative reinforcement and punishment.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Graco22 said:


> Well, that is really too bad. I work with many breeders, of many different breeds, and I have never known one that has the vet do the "show trims" on the nails. Most of them couldn't afford that anyway, as they aren't rich people, and having alot of show dogs and breeders costs alot of money. I certainly wouldn't consider her a good breeder, and I do think (hope) that its not the norm for breeders to do that. When I worked at a vet clinic, we never had a breeder come in for the show trim..but lots of pet people. What a shame..*I don't think a vet should even do it unless its a dire situation...same as declawing cats...they shouldn't be doing it and advocating it like SO many do.* But money is the almighty.


I completely agree, esspecialy with the part in bold. I've been in the show world since I was 10 and worked a vet hospital for the past couple years and I've never heard of this procedure being called a "show trim".


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

PugChick said:


> Actually, yes it is -R. Apply pressure, and release pressure when the desired behavior is given - in this case relaxing or standing still.  It works the same if it's a horse, dog or cat


Oh good, I'm glad we were on the same 'wavelength'!


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

I dremel my dogs' nails (minpins) but they NEVER like it. Sometimes they scream like I'm killing them, other times they tolerate it but it's never a quick and easy thing. It IS done in less than five minutes and they DO get a special treat at the end and are happy as clams in two seconds so I just gave up and that's how it's done. I don't want to use a clipper as they have black nails and I don't want to quick them. I'm really quick at it now and a combination of the football hold and my SO helping and it's done very quickly. I don't have the patience to desensitize them for months so they'll "let" me do their nails. It's only five mins a week so too bad - they have to put up with it. As I said to my kids as they were growing up, sometimes life sucks - get used to it. I'm not hurting them and it's very quick so tuff.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I taught one of the strays I found to let me clip her nails in about a week. She used to freak out if you tried to restrain her and hold her paw. I would just have her sit beside me and say "paw", then pick up her paw, and reward and praise her. I'd do that for all four paws. Then I would hold the nail clippers and do it. I'd practice several times a day. Eventually, I'd say paw, and then say "touch", and just touch the clipper to her nail, and reward/praise. Again, repeating several times throughout the day. Eventually she relaxed enough that I's say "touch" and clip the nail. Then reward, repeat. I'd do only a few nails at a time. Now she is easy to do.

You have to make ABSOLUTELY sure that you don't cut the quick doing this on one that was previously fearful. You'll end up having to start from scratch.


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