# purina



## bosshoss (Jan 29, 2009)

I recently had a bull mastiff lab mix Mastador given to me he 3 1/2 month old already very large for a pup and my question is is Purina alright to feed him he seems to like it but with all these recalls its always good idea to ask around thanks


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

There are much better foods than Purina, which is mostly fillers and by-products.

Check out Dog Food Analysis and Dog Food Project for some "light" reading.


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## odp1979 (Jan 5, 2009)

That all depends on you dog. If he's not having any allergic reaction to the ingredients, by all means, if he's liking it, and he's healthy, keep feed him that. Every dog is different when it comes to food, some are highly allergic to certain ingredients (mainly grains). Don't go out and buy an expensive bag of dog food just because someone suggests it. A good place to start and learn more about dog food is www.dogfoodproject.com. The person who runs the site is an animal nutritionist, she has a professional opinion. Good luck with your dog food adventure!


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

Purina may not be affecting him negatively now.....But it will most likely cause pretty big health problems in the long run. If you're set on feeding him the dry kibble, look at brands like Orijen, Blue Buffalo, Instinct etc....


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Purina may not be affecting him negatively now.....But it will most likely cause pretty big health problems in the long run. If you're set on feeding him the dry kibble, look at brands like Orijen, Blue Buffalo, Instinct etc....


I agree. There are far better foods to choose from than Purina.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Yes, Purina is a good food for growing pups - I believe Puppy Chow has a large breed formula with limited fat, kcals and a tweaked calcium content to promote slower growth. None of Purina's dry feeds were on the "big" recall list of '07, in fact I was feeding Purina Naturally Complete around the time of the recalls without any problems. 

I LOVE the argument that a "bad" food will not affect the dog now, but will in the long run, as though poor quality food is miraculously able to produce outstanding results now, but will be detrimental to the dog's health later on  Please explain that logic? Also explain why some of us HAVE been feeding it for years in our kennels with no ill results? 
The vast majority of winning dogs in both the show ring & field trials are exclusively fed Purina products with no ill effects whatsoever so why is this food not good enough for pet dogs???
What makes Blue Buffalo or Canidae or Timberwolf better than Purina? Please do not state ingredients alone as the reasoning. What good are ingredients if the dogs cannot tolerate the richer foods or if they do not give optimal results year after year? 
End of rant


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## GeorgeGlass (Jun 5, 2008)

If the dog is doing well on it, I'd leave him be. If he's itchy, fur isn't looking good, has loose stools, etc., then I would do some research to find a food you're comfortable with.

Of the grocery-store brands, Purina is the best in my opinion.


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

1) Purina is NOT a good food for puppies or any other dog for that matter. There are much better foods out there and recalls have nothing to do with it. 

Here are the first 8 listed ingredients for purina dog chow:


Ground yellow corn, poultry by-product meal, corn gluten meal, soybean meal, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols , brewers rice, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate

Here they are for purina one: 

Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain corn, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal, whole grain wheat, beef tallow preserved with mixed tocopherols , natural flavors


This is basically fast food for dogs.....Does fast food make YOU immediately unhealthy? Probably not.....BUT if you keep eating it, especially everyday, you will most likely get cancer or heart disease or some other degenerative disease later on in life. That is a fact. However, about 10% of the population has a special gene, usually referred to as the George Burns gene, that allows them to basically eat or smoke anything they want and NEVER get sick. Dogs have this same gene.

What are you comparing your "outstanding results" to if everyone is using purina? 

And yes, the ingredients ALONE make the dog food healthy or not healthy. 

Here are the first 5 ingredients in Blue Buffalo:

Deboned Chicken, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Whole Ground Barley, Chicken Meal

Here are the first 5 in Orijen:

Deboned Chicken 
Chicken Meal 
Turkey Meal 
Russet Potato 
Lake whitefish 

About every 2 to 3 years every single cell in your dog's body is replaced. What are the new cells made of? Nutrients from food. If you feed your dog crap, eventually he will turn into crap. The ingredients in purina are complete crap, hard to digest, empty calories with minimum nutrition, the fast food in the dog food world, unhealthy for your dog. The ingredients in the Blue Buffalo and Orijen are very digestible, allergy free and have high nutrient to calorie ratios. Healthy for your dog.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

After looking at the ingredients list on a bag of dog food..I like to look at it like this: Would I eat this food? If the answer is No, Then I'm not going to give it to my dog either. In this case "Poultry By-product" is the biggest turn off for me. I wouldn't eat this food.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> This is basically fast food for dogs.....Does fast food make YOU immediately unhealthy? Probably not.....BUT if you keep eating it, especially everyday, you will most likely get cancer or heart disease or some other degenerative disease later on in life. That is a fact.



I hate to break the news, but cancer and other chronic ailments sometimes blamed on diet are GENETIC. Or the result of early spay/neuter. Heart disease in my family is genetic, so we wathc our sodium and saturated fat intake, but I was born with a heart murmur and nothing my mother could have eaten while she was pregnant would have changed that. We can very well prolong our life with diet but not prevent illness.




> What are you comparing your "outstanding results" to if everyone is using purina?



To other kibbles I've used and also my experience with the raw diet. Not only do my dogs remain in show coat year round on Purina, they have excellent stamina - NEVER had a dog have a problem with hunting dog hypoglycemia or doggie sugar rushes on this feed. It is well digested as evidenced by small, infewquent stools and the ratio of how much they eat to maintain perfect weight to how much stool is produced. Sometimes I have problems keeping weight and muscle tone on my hounds on other feeds, but with a relatively low fat/protein levels of Dog Chow (21/12) we do not have this problem. I feed my largest dog (65lbs) 2 cups daily. My Beagles eat anywhere from 3/4 cup daily to 1.5 cups daily depending on size and activity level. In Timberwolf, for example, I was feeding my largest Beagle 2 + cups daily. I had a bear of a time keeping weight on a few of them, my girls were not coming in season, and the mutt had problems with severe weight loss on this feed. He went from religiously being 65lbs to 57lbs. I have had similar poor long term results with other holistic feeds. No milk and severe diarrhea in a lactating bitch & her pups on Merrick ... Two unrelated dogs having hypoglycemic seizures on Wellness CORE, crappin' out a pool of blood on Evolve ...




> And yes, the ingredients ALONE make the dog food healthy or not healthy.


Funny, I thought results, the vitamin premix (oh, I am a folic acid nut!), and the research & development plus quality control took precedence over the ingredient panel. Eh, what do I know?




> About every 2 to 3 years every single cell in your dog's body is replaced. What are the new cells made of? Nutrients from food. If you feed your dog crap, eventually he will turn into crap.



Oh! That is rich! My dogs are made out of crap cells - OMG! ROFLMAO!!!
Thanks for the comic relief, that is just hysterical! 
Unfortunately, I do have to rain on your parade here. Because I sometimes purchase adult dogs & not all of them are in top condition when they come here. So I have had experience using plain ol' crappy Dawg Chow for a bitch who was in abysmal condition when we got her. Had just whelped a litter 3 months earlier and was underweight, thin coat, hot spots - oh, the open, purrulent, bleeding, oozing disgusting hot spots - crappy teeth, warts, and digestive issues. She literally turned around within 2-3 months on Dog Chow! 
But wait! I forgot about the crap cell turnover that occurs every 3 years! What then, would you say about the 5yo male I own? His sire & dam, their sire & dam were fed Pro Plan as was he up until he came to me last summer. Now he's eating Dog Chow. He's a finished champion, not a bad hunting dog tho he needs much more experience, and will be specialed by me beginning in March, so you know I am not foolin' with his coat and this dog has to be in top physical condition with ME on the other end of the show lead, lol. 
He is 5yrs, not a grey hair on him, still acts like a puppy, very playful guy. 
Please tell him that he has crap cells, I dunno, but I can't see them. Must need glasses.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i have fed my dogs Purina One or Purina Pro Plan for the past 20+ yrs.....it was the only thing that i could feed my GSD that i didn't have to feed 10 or more cups a day to (and the other foods were supposed to be the top quality, one of which i fed 16 cups a day to him just to keep his weight on), and i have tried Canidae, Natural Balance and others to my BC's and they all went to #$!! on it all....they eat Purina One and they look great....i get compliments all the time on how great their coats are, how bright their eyes are, etc....if it works for him and he likes it, go for it....the best food for your dog is the one he does the best on.....

(just a note: i won't feed any of the other Purina brands as they don't have meat as the 1st ingredient, and that is important to me)

and, yeah, on the other foods w/ my BC's, this is what i got.....double the intake of food and double the output of stools; dull, brittle and thin coats and twice the amount of shedding; loss of energy/stamina (i guess that was a plus....i didn't have to spend 3 hrs at the park w/ them, only 1); lots of tummy upsets....and, when i took them in for their yrly check up my vet was totally appalled at their condition.....


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

I think it's important to keep the dog on a food they do well on. Obviously, some posters have dogs who do well on Purina foods, while others have had problems with them. It's best for each dog owner to do their own research and come to their own conclusions that are best for them and their dogs.


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

Giving your dogs purina is like giving growth hormones
and antibiotics to cattle.....It makes them grow up pretty
fast at first but it poisons their bodies. Unnatural. 

Peoples own conclusions and what is important to them
are nice and all but they do not trump basic nutrition.

If you you would like to feed your dog that stuff than please,
feed away. Just remember, your lifestyle may be disgusting
and unhealthy, you have a choice....but your dogs dont.

About 30% of cancer cases are genetic, the remaining 70%
are due to lifestyle and diet. But a very healthy diet can
prevent a genetic form of cancer. You can CERTAINLY
prevet illness through nutrition. 

The vitamins that get added to purina are synthetic, man made
vitamins. A body does not process these as well as vitamins that
are natural. Just because a vitamin or protein or whatever is listed
on a label does not mean it is usable to your dog.

You obivously don't know that much about nutrition and it seems
you like to just take someone's word for it(purinas)....Maybe you should
pick up a book or two. I would read a book called "ultraprevention" for
yourself and probably Dr. Martin Goldstein's book for your dogs.


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## GeorgeGlass (Jun 5, 2008)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> You obivously don't know that much about nutrition and it seems
> you like to just take someone's word for it


I don't think I'll be taking your word for it.

I've never read any scientific study that has convinced me that one method was better than another. And I've read many.



Binkalette said:


> After looking at the ingredients list on a bag of dog food..I like to look at it like this: Would I eat this food? If the answer is No, Then I'm not going to give it to my dog either. In this case "Poultry By-product" is the biggest turn off for me. I wouldn't eat this food.


Would you eat raw chicken? Bones? 

If you don't feed faw, have you taken a bite out of whatever kibble you buy?

A dog is not a human.


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

I advocate a premium, grain-free diet because it works for my dog. The very food that I have great results with caused problems for UrbanBeagles pack of dogs. I recognize that what a person feeds their dog is an individual choice. I cringe when I see women bottle-feeding their babies, but I don't accuse them of abusing their infant any more than I accuse UB of abusing her dogs.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Giving your dogs purina is like giving growth hormones
> and antibiotics to cattle.....It makes them grow up pretty
> fast at first but it poisons their bodies. Unnatural.
> 
> ...


1st, i'd like to say that, my young one did faster growing on the top brands that i fed many yrs ago (i don't recall the name, it was too long ago) that i had to switch as it had obtained 2/3 it's growth by the time it was 6 mo....had joint problems at that time.....switch to Pro Plan and the problems were solved w/in a few mo (didn't grow much after the switch).....

2nd, i, personally take offense to what sounds like an attack on people that don't feel the same way as you on the brands of food to feed....not every dog does well on what you deem "perfect"......my 10 yr old BC is in excellent health, outside of the HD she has which is genetic, not from the food she eats.....and, she's been eating Purina One all her life except the 2 times i tried "something better", which she did lousy on....


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I wouldn't feed it to my dogs but it is all about choices. I think that there are better options out there but one has to decide what is right for them and their dogs. We feed Purina to the humane society dogs here and give it out to our rescue people to feed their dogs as well.


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## bosshoss (Jan 29, 2009)

thanks for all the help Boss is doing just fine on it from what I can see.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

dansamy said:


> I think it's important to keep the dog on a food they do well on. Obviously, some posters have dogs who do well on Purina foods, while others have had problems with them. It's best for each dog owner to do their own research and come to their own conclusions that are best for them and their dogs.


Wait, you mean it _isn't true _that if you don't feed your dog raw only, you're basically abusing them and are a terrible person?!


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

GeorgeGlass said:


> I don't think I'll be taking your word for it.
> 
> I've never read any scientific study that has convinced me that one method was better than another. And I've read many.
> 
> ...


No. I dont feed raw. And I -wouldn't- feed my dog RAW meat. I understand that she can digest it just fine, being she is a dog, but I don't like the idea of salmonella bacteria all over her face and in our home. I might feed her cooked chicken on occasion, but I feed Kibble for 90% of her diet. And to answer your next question, YES, I did take a bite out of her kibble the first day I bought it. I'm not going to feed her something that tastes like crap.


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

Alot of you are missing the point.

The ingredients of purina one: Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain corn, corn gluten meal, poultry by-product meal, whole grain wheat, beef tallow preserved with mixed tocopherols , natural flavors

are poor nutrition. Period. I've been a nutritionist for almost 40 years and it doesn't matter if your dog does "well" on it and it doesn't matter what you personally "think"....Its bad nutrition...for people or dogs. There is no debate, over time it will slowly break down most dogs in one way or another much quicker than a higher quality brand, a homecooked, or raw food diet will. 

If you don't know enough about something, please, don't say anything about it. You make everyone dumber.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Look, I don't disagree that those ingredients are not 'the best'. 

However, UrbanBeagles HAS fed their dogs the 'better' food and their dogs did worse than when they were on Purina. I'm not in a place to accuse them of lying about their experience -- therefore, it _must _be possible that dogs can live decent lives on regular grade kibble, as that _is_ what dogs have eaten in this country for around 50 years. My own gal did poorly on grain-free food, though to some folks the fact that she eats stuff with rice in it probably makes it 'inferior' food in their eyes. To others, the fact that it's kibble in the _first_ place means they think it's 'garbage'. However she does GOOD on it, and that matter more to me than people's opinions.

I'd actualy like to see popular kibble labels from 50 years ago, or whenever they started putting ingredients on dog food packages, to see if the quality has actually gone up or down or stayed the same all this time.


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## basicair (Jan 21, 2009)

*UrbanBeagles*

The bottom line is that the majority of what's in Purina, the ingredients, is NOT something that should be fed to your dog and/or is a very poor choice or quality of food ingredients compared to many higher-priced brands you'll find.

Whether or not you believe that can lead to health issues is your decision and belief and that's fine. But you can't argue against the ingredients being bad. I don't even need to tell you why they're bad-- You can do that on dogfoodproject.com and I'm sure you have. If you don't believe it, then quite simply put you are ignorant. Bad ingredients proven bad are simply bad ingredients and that's the end of the discussion.

If you like feeding a brand with horrible ingredients, that's fine. If you have never had any health issues you think can be attributed to that food in your animals, then hey that's fantastic and I am happy for your pets. To be honest, I myself don't know if I agree 100% with all the claims of what bad ingredients can do to my dog. But I do know that feeding them a natural diet with quality ingredients and no filler or artificial coloring/flavoring, etc. is healthier for them than big-name brands with horrible ingredients.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Do ANY amount of research on dog food and dogs nutritional needs and you will find that 5 of the 7 ingredients listed are things that your dog can hardly digest- therefore receiving no nutritional value from said items. The only two acceptable items on this list are Chicken and- ...chicken. Gosh I'm just appalled anybody thinks this is a good food. Educate yourselves. Or, be stubborn and keep pretending these are nutritionally sound ingredients. It's your dog that suffers after all.. not you.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Alot of you are missing the point.
> 
> The ingredients of purina one....
> are poor nutrition. Period. I've been a nutritionist for almost 40 years and it doesn't matter if your dog does "well" on it and it doesn't matter what you personally "think"....Its bad nutrition...for people or dogs.


So how does a dog do well on poor nutrition? Working dogs need deep reserves of energy, and they won't get it from crappy food. My dog can roll like the Orange Blossom Special from sun up to sun down, then get up the next day and do it again. His teeth are clean and don't require brushing, his coat shines like a new penny, and he will part the waters on entry, any day that gets above 0° Fahrenheit. Tell me what he's lacking on Pro Plan.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

This is me repying to my own question: Vintage Pet Food Labels from 1920-1960. Dry and Canned labels. They make for some interesting comparisons to modern dog food.


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> So how does a dog do well on poor nutrition? Working dogs need deep reserves of energy, and they won't get it from crappy food. My dog can roll like the Orange Blossom Special from sun up to sun down, then get up the next day and do it again. His teeth are clean and don't require brushing, his coat shines like a new penny, and he will part the waters on entry, any day that gets above 0° Fahrenheit. Tell me what he's lacking on Pro Plan.



Bad food is kind of like a drug......Have you ever seen a drug addict? Even on tv? When they are high, they almost feel like they can do anything...The sugar and the fat and the bad carbs in purina's food give your dog that burst of energy....They do get energy from crappy food, they DON'T get nutrition.

Now...What happens to a drug addict when you take away his drugs and put him in rehab??? He gets super sick! Hair falls out, immune system goes down, bad bowel movements...a TON of stuff goes wrong. This is EXACTLY what happens when you stop feeding a dog a bad food like purina and start feeding him a higher quality food like orijen etc....The dog goes through a bit of a detox period when you take him off bad food and put him on good food just like a drug addict does when u take his drugs away and put him back on a healthier track.

What is he lacking on pro plan? Ingredients that will PROMOTE his good health. Real, natural food. What is he getting on pro plan? Corn gluten meal, poultry by product, dried beet pulp(basically straight sugar), egg product?, animal fat, brewers rice, corn bran, animal digest etc etc etc.....

Does that honestly sound like healthy, real food to you? Its mass produced, fast food for dogs. If you HAVE to feed it to them, then yes, there are worse things.....But if you're just being stubborn and don't want to do a little of your own research on what is actually healthy for your dog, and you just blindly take purina's word for it.........Remember in the 60's when cigarette makers used to say cigarettes were actually healthy? Companies will do what they can as long as you let them get away with it. You're letting purina get away with it by feeding your dog their food.


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

Does it make me old if I actually remember some of those labels in the stores?

And formula is poor nutrition for babies, but we still allow parents to choose it. 

I breast-fed and cloth-diapered my kids, and I now feed grain-free to my dog. It's my choice. I made it after researching things for myself. I (nor any other person on this forum) can not force another person to make better choices. UB and Tirluc both have dogs that don't seem to do well on more premium foods. They returned to using what they knew worked well for them. That is their choice. You don't have to like it.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> The sugar and the fat and the bad carbs in purina's food give your dog that burst of energy....They do get energy from crappy food, they DON'T get nutrition.


I know the difference between a sugar rush and stamina. Just for S&Gs, what does your dog do for a living?


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

He replys to forum posts


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> You obivously don't know that much about nutrition and it seems
> you like to just take someone's word for it(purinas)....Maybe you should
> pick up a book or two. I would read a book called "ultraprevention" for
> yourself and probably Dr. Martin Goldstein's book for your dogs.



Oh, you ARE funny  

I knwo enough about nutrition to realize I am feeding an animal that has scavenger/carniverous tendencies and should not be fed like a human. I wouldn't touch Purina myself but I wouldn't gnaw on a lamb rib, either. 
If I'm not mistaken Dr. Goldberg is against feeding pets ANY commercial feed. That's simply not practical or realistic. I've found better advice and recipes in Dr. Pitcairn's Natural Health for Dogs & Cats - tho as much as I like Pitcairn and similar holistic Vets, I find it a bit hypocritical that they usually lean towards steerign the reader away from purebreds (this is mentioned in Pitcairn's book, in regards to the poodle's drop ears and coat, nevermind a well bred poodle is one of the healthiest, hardiest long lived dogs, lol) and towards rescues from unknown breeding who would be more likely to have depressed immune systems or health issues. Certain bloodlines of dog are sickly while others are hardy. It's perhaps a morbid joke, but I like to say that with a well bred Beagle, they can "take a lickin' and keep on tickin'". I have several who are just so hardy & strong they have proven they can survive terrible life threatening situations and bounce back again & again, and never come down with chronic immune system problems such as allergies. Hardiness is genetic. I digress ... 
Have also read Lonsdale, Schultze, Billinghurst, Ann Martin (extremist, took her with a grain of salt), and Catherine O' Driscoll (vaccines). I've taken something from most of them but through trial and error found that the food which works best for all my dogs is Purina. 
I know plenty about nutrition but also know of propoganda. All kibbles are a processed feed from Purina to Innova. They are marketed quite differently and success depends entirely on what the dog's nutritional requirements are. Personally I have not had luck with holistic feeds but rather the feeds with run of the mill ingredient lists. Somehow, my Beagles manage. Not only is their stamina in the field excellent, they seem to do pretty well in conformation, judge never complained about coats or condition or told me my dogs had cruddy crap cells from their feed. In fact, if one wants to be competitive in the show ring and keep dogs whose coat texture and quality can compete with the top winning dogs, one better feed Purina  Any given show or field trial and the top conditioned dogs are usually fed Purina, probably 8x out of 10.


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

*UrBea*

Then it seems u r putting your dog's health on the line
for your own personal glory. If you're ok with that then
fine......purina it is.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Pai said:


> This is me repying to my own question: Vintage Pet Food Labels from 1920-1960. Dry and Canned labels. They make for some interesting comparisons to modern dog food.



Pai - awesome link, thanks for posting that  I love everything vintage dog, lol! 
BTW, the labess weren't easy to read but did notice some soybean meal, by products, etc on some of them! Interesting ...


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> Then it seems u r putting your dog's health on the line
> for your own personal glory. If you're ok with that then
> fine.


It's really sad that this topic can never be discussed without people resorting to personal attacks on other people's characters.



> Pai - awesome link, thanks for posting that I love everything vintage dog, lol!
> BTW, the labels weren't easy to read but did notice some soybean meal, by products, etc on some of them!


I was personally surprised at the number of brands made 'For Dogs OR Cats'. Also, lots of horsemeat, but also far fewer preservatives and additives than modern foods.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> *UrBea*
> 
> Then it seems u r putting your dog's health on the line
> for your own personal glory. If you're ok with that then
> fine......purina it is.


 
Personal glory?! Oh, you just get more and more amusing as this thread goes on! Well, I suppose it _could be _personal glory motivated that I don't want them to go hypoglycemic on foods like CORE and have seizures or defecate a pool of blood as they did when Evolve changed the formula. Yeah, you're right. Personal glory is why I feed Purina!


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

Man, when I was a kid I thought the people who made the "Cycle" dog foods had to be really smart to be able to tell us what to feed dogs at different ages in their lives. 

Oooh! I remember the Ken-L ration labels too! OMG, I'm vintage!!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

dansamy said:


> Man, when I was a kid I thought the people who made the "Cycle" dog foods had to be really smart to be able to tell us what to feed dogs at different ages in their lives.


Willow did AWESOME on Cycle......until they changed the formula. It was the only food she could eat from the grocery store.

Those labels are cool. I wonder what "charcoal" did, why they put it in the dog food? Most of the foods were just meat and charcoal, no vitamins listed. Veddy interesting.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Pai said:


> This is me repying to my own question: Vintage Pet Food Labels from 1920-1960. Dry and Canned labels. They make for some interesting comparisons to modern dog food.


Wow that is a really interesting link! Thanks for posting it!


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

you know, another thing that my dogs did when they were on Canidae and Natural Balance was get into the trash every opportunity they could and counter surf....i have never had a dogs do either of these things except during the 5-6 mo that they were on each.....and the things they were going after made absolutely no sense...not only would the eat the "scraps" that may have been thrown out but they also ate paper, tissue, etc....

i have also known 3 different dogs in the past that lived to quite the ripe old ages.....a friend in CO had a pair of Sibes that had been fed Purina Dog Chow most their lives and then got put on generic when he lost his job....the male was 17 when he died and the female was 15 the last time i saw the family.....then, another gal had a show Collie that had been fed PDC until the Pro Plan came out and she was 13 the last i saw of her and still going strong (_and_ still winning some fun match shows to boot when the gal put her in for grins and giggles)....

as i said, it all depends on the dog, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it......mine have never been to the vet for any reason other that the normal routine stuff or the "old age" things that will crop up.....i think they must be pretty healthy.....


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

tirluc said:


> as i said, it all depends on the dog, and if it ain't broke, don't fix it......


I'd have to agree. Given the highly competitive nature of certain dog games (sometimes borderline insanity), foods that don't give dogs a competitive edge will get dumped PDQ. Having a working dog and having talked to a many retriever trialers, Schutzhund trainers, people who run Beagles and pointing dogs, and having contracted wild-goose-chasing Border Collies, I have good confidence in Purina's premium offerings. These dogs will break down quickly on poor rations. They just don't suffer from it.

When somebody who keeps a glorified couch cushion (not that there's anything wrong with that) tells me I should take their word--as learned in a book--over what I can see with my own eyes, I have to just shake my head. Sometimes "good enough" really is good enough. The proof is in the pudding.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Has there ever been any actual research on "premium" kibble vs supermarket stuff?


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

you know, the way i look at it is the only way that they will ever be able to guarantee that either is better for your dog and such is to be able to take the _exact_ same dog and raise it on the separate foods....then they will be able to determine which way of feeding keeps the dog healthiest, live longer, has the better of everything....i guess this is where some cloning might come in handy, huh?....then they will have the same, exact genetic being to do their studies on.....but they'd have do it on many pairs to actually get perfect results....


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Does that honestly sound like healthy, real food to you? Its mass produced, fast food for dogs. If you HAVE to feed it to them, then yes, there are worse things.....But if you're just being stubborn and don't want to do a little of your own research on what is actually healthy for your dog, and you just blindly take purina's word for it.........Remember in the 60's when cigarette makers used to say cigarettes were actually healthy? Companies will do what they can as long as you let them get away with it. You're letting purina get away with it by feeding your dog their food.


No it doesn't sound healthy to me. And it boggles my mind why people would feed an animal that was born with a body designed to eat meat, something totally opposite, like Purina – a product chock full of everything else but good quality meat. It makes no sense. What does make sense is choosing a diet closest to what a dogs body was designed to consume. I mean we feed fish what they're supposed to eat, we feed cows what they are supposed to eat, why is it so hard to wrap our brains around the fact that dogs are supposed to eat MEAT. If you can’t do raw, then do home cooked, if you can’t do home cooked then choose a kibble with good quality meat sources with minimal grains and carbs. 
*bangs head on wall*


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## Lil Red Express (Jan 18, 2009)

That was really interesting , thanks for posting that site . Quite a few brands had horse meat in them back then . 

I just read this entire thread and will say this , I wouldn't buy any pet food where there is any * by-product* listed . Have you looked at what they can get away with , using that BY word ? YUCK ! 




Pai said:


> This is me repying to my own question: Vintage Pet Food Labels from 1920-1960. Dry and Canned labels. They make for some interesting comparisons to modern dog food.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> I just read this entire thread and will say this , I wouldn't buy any pet food where there is any * by-product* listed . Have you looked at what they can get away with , using that BY word ? YUCK !



By products? You mean hearts, liver, gizzards, tripe and other assorted organ meats? Oh, icky! Exactly what raw feeders use only in commercial feed. There are no hair, beaks, feathers, roadkill or euth'd pets in by products. Propoganda. And it's all started between food companies - one comes out with a different ingredient, and the competing company knocks it down ... 
I love this article: http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> By products? You mean hearts, liver, gizzards, tripe and other assorted organ meats? Oh, icky! Exactly what raw feeders use only in commercial feed. There are no hair, beaks, feathers, roadkill or euth'd pets in by products. Propoganda. And it's all started between food companies - one comes out with a different ingredient, and the competing company knocks it down ...
> I love this article: http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html



Uh, no - not quite...The AAFCO definition of by-products is a LOT different than yours. Let's take Chicken by products for example...



> Consists of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.


*AND*
Meat by products


> Meat By-Products - the non rendered, clean parts, other than meat, derived from slaughtered mammals. It includes, but is not limited to, lungs, spleen, kidneys, brain, livers, blood, bone, partially defatted low-temperature fatty tissue and stomachs and intestines freed of their contents. It does not include hair, horns, teeth and hooves.


Even if there are organs included, they certainly are not the quality that would be approved for the human food chain - or else they would be in our grocery stores, not kibble.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> By products? You mean hearts, liver, gizzards, tripe and other assorted organ meats? Oh, icky! Exactly what raw feeders use only in commercial feed. There are no hair, beaks, feathers, roadkill or euth'd pets in by products. Propoganda. And it's all started between food companies - one comes out with a different ingredient, and the competing company knocks it down ...
> I love this article: http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html



You keep telling yourself that. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=ingrd I dare you to actually read the whole page, and I cant wait to see your next defense after you do.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Given the definition of "by-products", where is the problem? Why the heck wouldn't you feed that to a dog?


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Given the definition of "by-products", where is the problem? Why the heck wouldn't you feed that to a dog?


There's one that didn't read the page.


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## Lil Red Express (Jan 18, 2009)

Also : 

Don't forget that by-products consist of any parts of the animal *OTHER than meat*. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

I read the article but much of it was based on opinion but not facts. Byproducts can be of value and the author doesn't have proof what percentage is not of value. Much of the article is based on speculation, she could be right but it is not a scientific study. I feed a "high quality" kibble btw.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> I hate to break the news, but cancer and other chronic ailments sometimes blamed on diet are GENETIC. Or the result of early spay/neuter. Heart disease in my family is genetic, so we wathc our sodium and saturated fat intake, but I was born with a heart murmur and nothing my mother could have eaten while she was pregnant would have changed that. We can very well prolong our life with diet but not prevent illness.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well that dog looks familiar...From this site...Indy is the dogs name?? Cutie. 

http://houndmuzic.tripod.com/id38.html

Is this your site Urban Beagles?


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

I could go find a doctor or vet or author to write anything I wanted him to...there is always someone out there with an opposite opinion....doesn't mean u have to listen to the nut....Companies also do this with "research" studies. They pay for the result they want. Ask that vet who wrote that article how much nutrition he studied in vet school? It was most likely a 2 week pass/fail course. Worhtless.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

So why should we believe your "nuts" when there is such a large amount of contradictory, observable data?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Lil Red Express said:


> Also :
> 
> Don't forget that by-products consist of any parts of the animal *OTHER than meat*. If there is any use for any part of the animal that brings more profit than selling it as "byproduct", rest assured it will appear in such a product rather than in the "byproduct" dumpster.


Keep in mind, that in the U.S., we actually refuse to eat stuff like brains, eyes, hearts, intestines, kidneys, etc. that other countries see as _delicious._ There's a reason you generally have to special order those things from a butcher.

Therefore, I wouldn't so quickly disregard the idea that some animal byproducts in dog food may actually contain perfectly good organs that American just find 'icky'.

Like the article I posted earlier on 'Human Grade' pet food ingredients -- what matters is the *quality of the company and whether they're honest or not, because even a label like 'Organic' or 'Human Grade' can be twisted to deceive consumers.*


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Some of you just love to fight, dontcha?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Honestly, I _do _like being challenged in my opinions, and personally think that it's good to have to hash out your beliefs and be expected to provide logic and facts to support yourself. I have no problem changing my opinions if someone can point out solid facts/research/logic that shows I'm wrong.

But it's hard to do that and still keep a discussion civil, in most places.


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> So why should we believe your "nuts" when there is such a large amount of contradictory, observable data?


There is hardly any contradictory data concerning nutrition. You guys are justifying bad nutrition by saying "my dog does well on it". 

George Burns "did well" on booze and cigars for 100 years or whatever, but you put the majority of people on his diet and they wont last 50 years.

Bad nutrition is bad nutrition period. There is no debate. The ingredients in purina is mostly bad nutrition. Anyone except purina or someone who knows nothing about nutrition(like many vets) will tell you that.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

A good company _could_, logically, use 'by products' in their food that were made up of good organ meat instead of relying on mostly the near-indigestible stuff in their 'by product' mixes. Just because the *legal definition of 'by-products'* allows crap to be used doesn't mean _every_ company makes that compromise in quality in their by-product ingredients. This is where researching company ethics comes in. Do I personally know if Purina is reputable that way in this case? No, I don't, because I don't feed Purina and I don't have to defend them. 

Are grains less digestable to dogs than meat ingredients? Yes, and nobody disputes that fact -- this is why you have to feed _more_ of kibble that has lots of grains than a grain-free kibble to get the _same amount_ of nutrition. That technically means it's inferior quality to a grain-free food, yes. But does that make it _dog poison_? There has been no proof anywhere of that from any scientific source, unless a dog is a allergic to those ingredients. 

All the personal attacks and judgemental attitude in the world does not provide you any actual proof that UrbanBeagles or the millions of other people who feed Purina are harming their dogs. You simply have no evidence other than anecdotes and personal beliefs. The ironic thing is, NOBODY here is claiming that all dogs do just as good on ANY food -- because dogs are individuals. 

I swear, dog food discussions can get just as out of hand as arguments on politics and religion, with one side always jumping to demonize everyone on the other.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> There is hardly any contradictory data concerning nutrition. You guys are justifying bad nutrition by saying "my dog does well on it".
> 
> George Burns "did well" on booze and cigars for 100 years or whatever, but you put the majority of people on his diet and they wont last 50 years.
> 
> Bad nutrition is bad nutrition period. There is no debate. The ingredients in purina is mostly bad nutrition. Anyone except purina or someone who knows nothing about nutrition(like many vets) will tell you that.


So what do you do when the high quality foods upset your dog and the only thing that doesn't upset them is purina?


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> So what do you do when the high quality foods upset your dog and the only thing that doesn't upset them is purina?


Switching from brands like purina to higher quality brands, homecooked or raw diets will upset many dogs because they have been eating the equivalent of fast food their entire life. Like I said earlier....Its just like taking a drug addict off of drugs. It will not be pretty at first. There could be years of trash built up in their systems. 

There needs to be a smooth transition where u gradually add just a little bit of the higher quality food....This could last for 3-4 months or more. The slower the transition, the better.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Well that dog looks familiar...From this site...Indy is the dogs name?? Cutie.
> 
> http://houndmuzic.tripod.com/id38.html
> 
> Is this your site Urban Beagles?




I am on the fence about this....I like to feed my guys a "high grade" kibble but I feel that its a personal choice for each owner to make...

but I do think its funny to read this thread and then read the "Dog nutrition 101" link on that website and the "about our puppies link"......


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Switching from brands like purina to higher quality brands, homecooked or raw diets will upset many dogs because they have been eating the equivalent of fast food their entire life. Like I said earlier....Its just like taking a drug addict off of drugs. It will not be pretty at first. There could be years of trash built up in their systems.
> 
> There needs to be a smooth transition where u gradually add just a little bit of the higher quality food....This could last for 3-4 months or more. The slower the transition, the better.


I'm saying even after the transition period. . .


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> There is hardly any contradictory data concerning nutrition. You guys are justifying bad nutrition by saying "my dog does well on it".
> 
> George Burns "did well" on booze and cigars for 100 years or whatever, but you put the majority of people on his diet and they wont last 50 years.


I'm not talking just about my dog. I'm talking about (at a bare minimum) the tens of thousands of dogs who operate in the most demanding mental and physical environments imaginable. These field trial dogs, police dogs, and all the others, don't just survive on Purina products and their equivalent commercial competitors, they thrive on them. Until you can explain how that happens on substandard rations, your opinion is going to be ignored by all who don't already agree with you.

Posting more links to highly biased internet opinion will not change that.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

RetrieverGirl, as a new member, you are near-attacking a member (UrbanBeagles) that has fed their dog Purina for many, many years amongst several of her dogs. If her dogs are healthy, happy, and in great shape, why are you having such an issue with the food because it has ingredients that you don't agree with? 

Purina has been around for over 75 years, and Purina Dog Chow and Purina Puppy Chow are two foods that have never been recalled. On top of this, they do not include BHA, BHT or Ethoxyquin in their foods, unlike Pedigree, and even more expensive diets such as Science Diet.

"Better" foods on the other hand, have only been around since the 70's or so, with many coming out within the last 30-40 years, and only in the last 15 or 20 have they become more "main stream". My friend just lost her poodle/shih tzu mix 6 months ago at the *age of 24*!! The dog was happy and virtually healthy until a few months before dying. Never had cancer, or tumors. And the dog was fed Dog Chow its entire life. My aunt's miniature poodle just passed away at the age of 22 last year, and was a heck of a healthy dog. It ate whatever food was on sale at the grocery store its whole life, mostly dog chow and alpo and 'ol roy. Explain how the dog never got cancer, and I grew up with that energetic ball of fluff my entire life.

While food may play a role in health, genetics do too. Otherwise, if Purina was the cancer-causing, health-killing food that it's touted to be, you wouldn't see dogs living well into their 20's on it. And by the way, we had a dog that died a few years ago from cancer at the age of 10. And it was on one of the "better" foods. My friend's border collie was just put to sleep at the age of 9 from cancer, and the dog was on Solid Gold its whole life.

Does 'better' foods cause cancer? No one can say. Does cheaper foods? No one can say. Because I've seen both sides.

People have always argued about which food is 'better', and they always will.

I have tried nearly every single food on the market in the last few years, I went from Wellness, Core, Solid Gold, Innova, EVO, Nature's Variety, Canidae, Cal. Natural, Nat. Balance, Merrick, you name it. Some of my guys did fine, and some looked like crap, with runny stools and serious shedding.

So then I put them on raw. One of my guys started having some serious liver issues, one started throwing up worse than ever, and then it made my epilepsy dog's seizures way worse and more frequent. Took them off raw, and nearly everything went back to normal. So much for that.

Awhile back I asked for opinions on TOTW food, and got some great ones from members here. But then I began speaking to others that I know that have used it, and weren't satisfied with it, and so I didn't even try it.

Guess what my dogs are on now? Purina. Yep, I'm out the closet and admitting it, and couldn't be more pleased. <--- UrbanBeagles is probably grinning ear to ear right now. 

And for the first time in a LONG time, I finally have an entire pack of dogs where one isn't throwing up, one isn't having the runs, one isn't burping and gassing me out the house, and my other one's epilepsy is under control again. I'm satisfied, and their coats are amazing. Soft, shiny, and less shedding than when they were on some of the better foods. I couldn't be happier right now, and if that makes me a bad owner, oh well. 

And BTW, dog's aren't humans. You may not eat what's in cheap dog foods, but a dog's stomach isn't like a humans. It's made of 50% hydrochloric acid, and it eats through quite a lot of stuff that's put in there. Why do you think a dog can eat a whole raw bone with no problems, but that would seriously damage a human? Or they can eat raw meat and never get e. coli or salmonella, but if we ate raw chicken, we'd be on our death bed.

You have to not be so close-minded. If there was a one "perfect" food that was proven for all dogs, then all dogs would be on it. Otherwise, owners should feed what's best for THEIR dog.

Oh, forgot to mention -- my friend raises German Shepherds for show and conformation. They are into some serious competition and have won more awards than you can shake a stick at. They eat Dog Chow, sometimes switched with Pedigree. Beautiful coats, so beautiful that they win one show after another.

And one german shepherd just passed away a few months ago. She was a couple months shy of 16.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

What you feed your dog is your choice and it also may depend on various factors. For example, one poster said he or she cringes when she sees someone bottle feeding their baby. What if the mother had no choice? Sometimes the baby doesn't latch on properly, they're not getting enough so they have to supplement with formula or the mother has a condition where it wouldn't be beneficial for the baby to drink her milk. My point is, you can't really judge someone's choice unless you know the whole story. 

I also don't think any food is allergy-free just because it doesn't have grains, or corn or soy or wheat. A dog can be allergic to any of the botanical ingredients in Orijen, for example or to the type of protein a food contains. 

Are there any studies that have proven that corn, wheat or soy are bad for dogs? What about grains? I find it very confusing because I've read both sides and each seem convincing. Are their any studies out there that prove that premium foods which contain no corn, soy or wheat are better than those that do in the long run? Genetics play a huge role; you could feed your dog the best food, scientifically proven or not, and your dog could still have issues or a shorter lifespan. 

If your dog is doing well on Purina, then great. If he's happy, healthy, at a good weight, nice shiny healthy coat...continue feeding. In my opinion, Purina produces some really bad food with chemicals and artificial colours (i.e. Kibbles & Bits, Beneful) but some good foods as well (Purina One, Pro Plan). 

Personally, I'm feeding my dog raw, grain-free patties. She loves them and I've had no problems with salmonella. Dogs have something in their saliva which 'neutralizes' the bacteria and since she is raw-fed, there is no bacteria lingering as there is with kibble, so her licking me will not be an issue. She's been fed kibble and homecooked food and did well on those as well. You know, you do the best you can and hope for the best. The rest is a crapshoot. I do believe that food is an important part of a dog's quality of life; but your dog is an individual so you have to do what's best for him. You can try some of the premium foods that people have suggested, see how your dog does on them. If he does better, switch, if not, don't switch. It's a game of trial and error; a game I've been playing since the day I brought my dog home....


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## Caroline162 (Jan 6, 2009)

Pai said:


> Keep in mind, that in the U.S., we actually refuse to eat stuff like brains, eyes, hearts, intestines, kidneys, etc. that other countries see as _delicious._ There's a reason you generally have to special order those things from a butcher.
> 
> Therefore, I wouldn't so quickly disregard the idea that some animal byproducts in dog food may actually contain perfectly good organs that American just find 'icky'.
> 
> Like the article I posted earlier on 'Human Grade' pet food ingredients -- what matters is the *quality of the company and whether they're honest or not, because even a label like 'Organic' or 'Human Grade' can be twisted to deceive consumers.*


Well... except hot dogs = byproduct 

I think it's amusing that people will read ingredient lists so critically for their dogs, but I wonder whether they read AND UNDERSTAND everything that's on their OWN food labels. I wonder whether the poster who said he would never feed his dogs these ingredients because he would never eat them himself has ever eaten a hot dog or bologna or anything else with BYPRODUCT in it, or something containin GELATIN made from the bones, skins, hoofs, and tendons of cows, pigs, fish and other animals.... just saying.

I'm pretty much of the mindset that if your dog is doing well on a food, keep him on it. I feed mine Wellness Puppy right now, but I'm still undecided about whether to stick with it, just ordered a sample of Honest Kitchen. I don't judge people who feed their dogs Purina or raw or anything else. I also don't judge moms who formula feed their babies or feed their kids candy, even though I do neither.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Binkalette said:


> You keep telling yourself that. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=ingrd I dare you to actually read the whole page, and I cant wait to see your next defense after you do.



Why would I give credence to a propoganda driven site like the DogFoodProject? Isn't that the same site that rates foods by ingredients only and gives them the 5 star ratings? Given that their ratings system are choosing foods with herbs and vegetables - foods unnatural to "carnivores" - why should I take them with anything but a grain of salt? I have no problem feeding my hounds the guts of other animals. Pffft ... if you only knew how many times one has slipped out of their collars when I was field dressing a rabbit  Even when they don't manage to clean up after Mr. Wabbit, I tend to save livers and hearts for them to cook up over their feed. In fact, the by products in kibble are probably better than the goodies they lap up after a hunt since those bunnies have all sorts of darling parasites. I should buy stock in panacur 



BoxMeIn21 said:


> Well that dog looks familiar...From this site...Indy is the dogs name?? Cutie.
> 
> http://houndmuzic.tripod.com/id38.html
> 
> Is this your site Urban Beagles?



Yes, it is. And? Inquiring minds want to know what relevance my website would have to a discussion regarding Purina?


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

> In fact, the by products in kibble are probably better than the goodies they lap up after a hunt since those bunnies have all sorts of darling parasites. I should buy stock in panacur


Your's are better than mine -- Bo's favorite snack is any dead rat or mouse that the cats drag in from the fields. *gag* Him and Jake both gulp them down - bones, fur, PARASITES, and all, LOL.

Oh, and if the cats drag a dead bird into the fence, which happens often, oh yeah it's fair game too. Beaks, feathers and all.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I am on the fence about this....I like to feed my guys a "high grade" kibble but I feel that its a personal choice for each owner to make...
> 
> but I do think its funny to read this thread and then read the "Dog nutrition 101" link on that website and the "about our puppies link"......




Ah! So that's it! While you're at it, check out the available pups page, too. Got a pic of Merrick Puppy food waaay down @ the bottom  OOH! Check out the feeds I do/don't recommend!!! lol 
I do not breed often and that site (the pups pages) has not been updated since 2/07.



> I have tried nearly every single food on the market in the last few years, I went from Wellness, Core, Solid Gold, Innova, EVO, Nature's Variety, Canidae, Cal. Natural, Nat. Balance, Merrick, you name it. Some of my guys did fine, and some looked like crap, with runny stools and serious shedding.
> 
> So then I put them on raw. One of my guys started having some serious liver issues, one started throwing up worse than ever, and then it made my epilepsy dog's seizures way worse and more frequent. Took them off raw, and nearly everything went back to normal. So much for that.
> 
> ...



Oh, you KNOW I'm doing the happy dance, lol! The main thing is that your crew is looking/feeling well! It actually wasn't easy sticking with Dog Chow ... I constantly was falling off the wagon. There was always a voice in the back of my head saying yeah, they look good, but ... But nothing. I'm tired of switching, just can't watch the dogs have such a hard time on the "better" feeds. 
BTW, wanted to mention, my epileptic couldn't tolerate raw either. At first we thought it was just raw pork, then he began to have problems with other feeds. When on raw the seizures were coming every two weeks, now he has one every several months! Everyone was telling me raw is good for epileptic dogs because of some 10yr old web site about the epileptic Dal whose seizures were cured w/ raw. I wanted sooo badly to believe it would help him, too


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## Caroline162 (Jan 6, 2009)

I just wanted to come back and add one more thing, which people might find shocking (and I've read a couple of posts on this board that are very much against this sentiment)... I think people who aren't very rich should be allowed to own dogs.

I fed my dog Dog Chow when I was in college, not out of ignorance or because I didn't love her, but for the same reason that I myself ate mostly raman noodles and bean burritos. We both survived, and actually I had several vets during her lifetime tell me that she was exceptionally healthy and looked very young for her age.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Ooooo, and I was wondering which male and female adults you had for adoption.  

I lovvveee, love, love Deputy.  And you know me, I'm a sucker for seniors.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Why would I give credence to a propoganda driven site like the DogFoodProject? Isn't that the same site that rates foods by ingredients only and gives them the 5 star ratings?


No, you're thinking of Dog Food Analysis. 

The Dog Food Project is a different site; it doesn't do product reviews, it explains the AAFCO definitions of various ingredients.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Why would I give credence to a propoganda driven site like the DogFoodProject? Isn't that the same site that rates foods by ingredients only and gives them the 5 star ratings? Given that their ratings system are choosing foods with herbs and vegetables - foods unnatural to "carnivores" - why should I take them with anything but a grain of salt? I have no problem feeding my hounds the guts of other animals. Pffft ... if you only knew how many times one has slipped out of their collars when I was field dressing a rabbit  Even when they don't manage to clean up after Mr. Wabbit, I tend to save livers and hearts for them to cook up over their feed. In fact, the by products in kibble are probably better than the goodies they lap up after a hunt since those bunnies have all sorts of darling parasites. I should buy stock in panacur


No. That would be www.dogfoodanalysis.com.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

> Oh, you KNOW I'm doing the happy dance, lol! The main thing is that your crew is looking/feeling well! It actually wasn't easy sticking with Dog Chow ... I constantly was falling off the wagon. There was always a voice in the back of my head saying yeah, they look good, but ... But nothing. I'm tired of switching, just can't watch the dogs have such a hard time on the "better" feeds.
> BTW, wanted to mention, my epileptic couldn't tolerate raw either. At first we thought it was just raw pork, then he began to have problems with other feeds. When on raw the seizures were coming every two weeks, now he has one every several months! Everyone was telling me raw is good for epileptic dogs because of some 10yr old web site about the epileptic Dal whose seizures were cured w/ raw. I wanted sooo badly to believe it would help him, too



Well, I'm verrryyy happy, as are my guys, and that's what matters to me. And I know what you mean about second-guessing. I've spent countless hours for a very long time, years, researching foods. I have books upon books on dog nutrition. And in the end, I've went back to Purina (we used it many years ago), because I wasn't satisfied with the results of any of the better foods. And I tried raw, for months, and wasn't satisfied either. So far, most of the problems I'd been having on great foods, have cleared up with Purina. 

Does that make raw or "better" foods bad? Absolutely not! It just means that they didn't work for *my* dogs, and a "cheaper" food did. And I am happy as a lark to stay with whatever is working for us. I'd rather they be on Purina, and have them happy and healthy without a stomach ache and vomiting, than on a "better" food just to look good, despite my babies being sick. Not a chance.

And yeah, Emmy's seizures got progressively worse, not only in their length of time and severity of the actual seizure, but in the time frame of how often she was having them. So far, they're about every 3 weeks, and have been since we've had her. On raw, they were 1-2 a week, and more severe, with them lasting longer. And in the beginning, I was a bit 'blind', because I kept hearing how raw was good for seizures, ect. And she was on chicken, beef, lamb, and turkey (being alternated). And things were still bad. I took her off, and since going to Purina, she is doing fine.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

MyRescueCrew said:


> Ooooo, and I was wondering which male and female adults you had for adoption.
> 
> I lovvveee, love, love Deputy.  And you know me, I'm a sucker for seniors.



LOL! I just had the female returned to me a few weeks ago, actually - you should see her, they made her into a fat overstuffed sausage dog! She's the epitome of fat & happy tho  The male ended up breaking his leg and is still here ... 
If you like old Beagles, I'll be happy to send Deputy your way! I tell him to go convalesce in the corner but this dog gives me more trouble than all the others combined, lol. Stupid old man. You can have him ... free to good home, lol.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

LOL, you know if I didn't live completely across the country, I'd take you up on that! A blue-tick beagle, oooo yeah. And an aging senior with health issues, he'd fit right in!


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

MRC I know exactly where you're coming from. It's no secret on this forum that I feed Purina One. We had a multitude of problems on various premium foods...minor problems for the dogs, but my senior cat had some very serious issues when I tried to take her off Cat Chow...I've since moved her to One also and she's fine on that...they all are. I've had exactly zero problems since going back to PO. I know what's best for my dogs, and I no longer second guess that based on what I read on the internet...yes, I've read all those sites and more, and I don't see myself switching foods again any time soon.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

sheltiemom, I have a cat that is going on 15 years old, and has been fed Purina Cat Chow every day of his life. Unlike almost every cat I have ever known, he has NEVER (ever, ever) been to the vet for anything other than a rabies shot every few years, a microchip, and a bee sting.

Almost every cat I have ever met, including 4 of the 7 cats my vet owns, all have urinary tract issues, urine stones, crystals, blockages, ect. And other cats I know have other issues, many of them have IBD and constantly throw up. Not him. My vet saw him awhile back for his rabies shot, and was commenting on how gorgeous he looks in his senior age. I'll never switch to anything else. At 15, he still goes out into the cow pastures and hay fields, chasing birds and butterflies. You'd never guess he was nearly 15.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Purina may not be the best, but it cannot be disputed that there are dogs do well on it.

Our Aussie ate it for the majority of her life. When she was diagnosed with cancer at age 14 she started to lose weight so fast. The only food that would keep weight on her was Iams (yeah not good BUT I just wanted to find something that wouldn't upset her and would put weight on). At age 14 I wasn't worried about long term effects, I just wanted her to gain weight. She lived for another two years. Do I think a better food would have changed the outcome of her life? Not really. She had a wonderful 16 years with me, and was going strong until the end.

I don't think I'm going to recommend Purina to people, but if someone asks if I think it's bad food and if I think they should change the dog's diet, more than likely I'd say no.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Yes, it is. And? Inquiring minds want to know what relevance my website would have to a discussion regarding Purina?


Just wondering...was researching nutrition and ran across your page. Interesting and somewhat contradictory at the same time...

http://houndmuzic.tripod.com/id15.html

I like this particular part...



> Some foods we would urge you to avoid at all costs are:
> *PLEASE NOTE WE NO LONGER RECOMMEND EUKANUBA/IAMS PRODUCTS DUE TO DRASTIC CHANGES IN FORMULA & QUALITY*
> 
> -Mighty Dog
> ...


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

one thing that i find interesting is that when all these foods were being recalled a while back, Purina had only one of their foods pulled and that was a certain "cut" of their canned Alpo....funny how a lot of the "top brands" were being recalled, tho....

and MRC, i was doing a "happy dance" when you mentioned that, as well.....and there have been many times that i've thought about switching to a "better" food....but, i'll be sticking w/ Purina....i think i might go to Pro Plan Selects if i can find a place around here that carries it, but we'll see....


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I think people need to stop being elitist where food is concerned.

I don't feed Purina but that's because I had bad results with those foods. My dog did terrible on it. that's all.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I think people need to stop being elitist where food is concerned.


Bingo.

Purina feeders are getting bashed by Canidae feeders. Canidae feeders by Sold Gold feeders. The Solid Gold feeders are flamed by the raw feeders. And so it goes.

I am far more concerned about the dogs that aren't being fed at all, or are sitting in cages waiting to see if they die or get a new home.

Anyone who thinks that feeding Purina is absolutely the worst thing you can do to a dog needs a reality check. If you donate a big bag of Purina to your local shelter, do you think they'll turn it down?


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

RonE said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 
> 
> I am far more concerned about the dogs that aren't being fed at all, or are sitting in cages waiting to see if they die or get a new home.


Yes, exactly.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dansamy said:


> Oooh! I remember the Ken-L ration labels too! OMG, I'm vintage!!


Mt father unloadd at a dock owned by Quaker Oats, the fatory there made Ken-L Ration nad Puss-N-Boots. I know exactly what went into the food (it was nothing BUT trash fish that couldn't be sold to the public.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Ron, i couldn't have said it better....and i would have dropped this along time ago but for the "attack" put forth....i tend to come out fighting when attacked.....



cshellenberger said:


> Mt father unloadd at a dock owned by Quaker Oats, the fatory there made Ken-L Ration nad Puss-N-Boots. I know exactly what went into the food (it was nothing BUT trash fish that couldn't be sold to the public.



but, you know what, Carla, those same "trash fish" would have been gladly eaten up by any dogs running loose if tossed out and they would have done just fine (and had a full belly)


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

WoW.

I have rarely heard more irrational arguments in favor of something.
I don't know what it is. Some people seem brainwashed by brilliant 
marketing, some fail to grasp simple logic and others, well, you seem
really smart but trying to make you understand a fact is like trying
to make my dog sit by speaking spanish to him.

That being said......

I'm not saying you can't feed your dog purina and I'm not saying that
you're a bad person if you do and I'm not saying that all dogs will 
get cancer if they eat purina.

What I am saying is that, nutritionally speaking, most of you are out
of your element. I've been a nutritionist for 40 years. I've studied 
dog nutrition for the last 10 years. I know more about nutrition than
99% of vets do. For most vets, nutrition is a pass/fail elective!

So to just tell someone that feeding their puppy purina is ok is telling
them that to push your own agenda.


The ingredients of ALL purina brands are, relatively speaking, bad 
nutrition for your dogs. If your dogs were eating leather shoes,
purina would be better  Seriously, there are worse foods out there.
But the ingredients of purina do not promote good health, they
promote degenerative disease.

Here's the thing. Every one of you has dogs that do "well" on purina,
you say "my friends dog lived till he was 25 on purina", "all show
dogs eat purina" and blah blah blah blah.

For about 10 to 30 percent of dogs, its NOT GONNA MATTER what
you feed them! Genetics will not allow them to get that sick.

So.....lets take 30% and subtract that from the amount of dogs there
are in America. I'm just guessing, there are probably more, but lets
just say there are 100 million dogs in America. 30% of 100 million equals
30 million dogs.

Thats 30 million dogs who are gonna do just fine on purina OR shoe leather.
EVERYONE knows a dog that is superhealthy and eats purina.

But.......

For the 70 million other dogs who don't have the bullet proof genetics,
eating the ingredients of purina everyday guarantee a degenerative
disease.

You have a 3 out of 10 chance that purina will be fine for your dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm going to say this much, I feed a premium food (Evo). however my mother NEVER fed 'premium' food. Her dogs (larger working breeds such as Dobes, Rotties and GSD's) regularly lived 2-5 years past the 'expected' ages, she fed Ol Roy. My father has a cat that is now *24 *years old, still has most of her teeth and runs the roost that has been fed Meow Mix. All the animals were also fed table scraps on a regular basis nad my parents (and myself before I learned better) would regularly put the 'drippings' from frying food on their feeds. 

Now, while I do encourage people to feed the better feeds, I WON'T attack those that don't or can't afford to. I've had to go down to 'cheaper' foods myself at times (while unemployed I fed Natures Recipe). The fact is, as long as the dogs are doing well on the food and ARE BEING FED I don't have a problem with it. 

I have banned people here that regularly attacked others in the food forum, I don't have a problem doing it again.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> WoW.
> 
> I have rarely heard more irrational arguments in favor of something.
> I don't know what it is. Some people seem brainwashed by brilliant
> ...


Wow yourself...you may have said something really important and life changing in your post, but I tuned out after this part. You're not going to get anyone to listen to you when you start out with insults.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

RonE, great post, couldn't agree more.



> So to just tell someone that feeding their puppy purina is ok is telling
> them that to push your own agenda.


Wow... now that's a loaded statement. I told my friend it's perfectly fine, after she asked my opinion, to feed her new boston terrier puppy puppy chow, after she said the puppy wasn't handling the 'better' puppy foods. What agenda am I pushing? 

RetrieverGirl, it sounds as though you are the one pushing an agenda. So far, almost everyone in this thread has gotten along fabuously, and agreed for the most part that whatever works for your dog is fine. At this point, it is you that is on the verge of attacking those who do not go along, and agree with, your line of thinking.

So Purina has less-than-good ingredients. Who cares. If it works for their dog, fantastic! Because in the end, that's what matters.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Just wondering...was researching nutrition and ran across your page. Interesting and somewhat contradictory at the same time...
> 
> http://houndmuzic.tripod.com/id15.html
> 
> I like this particular part...


ummm yeah i was actually wondering the same thing here


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> WoW.
> 
> I have rarely heard more irrational arguments in favor of something.
> I don't know what it is. Some people seem brainwashed by brilliant
> ...


You still have provided no facts, no studies with any scientific research which will back up your claims. So far, I only see your opinion deduced from your logic which may or may not be sound. Have you published any papers using control groups to verify your views or shall we just take your word for it?


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## RetrieverGirl41 (Jan 28, 2009)

Do you see what "opinions" can do?

I wasn't attacking anyone....I was just giving
my opinion. What happened when I gave that
opinion? I got an infraction and some of you
had your ego's bruised.

What happens when you give a new dog owner
your "opinion" about purina food? 

7 out of 10 times the health of their dog happens.
It happens to turn bad.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Your opinion is coming across more as a "fact" with the way you are presenting it.



> What happens when you give a new dog owner
> your "opinion" about purina food?
> 
> 7 out of 10 times the health of their dog happens.
> It happens to turn bad.


Wow... ROFL.

Can I see some studies to back this up please? I'd especially like to see the controlled results where you came to the 7 out of 10 conclusion.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Do you see what "opinions" can do?
> 
> I wasn't attacking anyone....I was just giving
> my opinion. What happened when I gave that
> ...


How do you arrive at 7 out of 10? Just curious? I actually feed Nature's Variety so I am not partial to to Purina. But I have no doubt many dogs thrive on it, if they didn't the market wouldn't allow it to exist.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Do you see what "opinions" can do?
> 
> I wasn't attacking anyone....I was just giving
> my opinion. What happened when I gave that
> ...


Um... about 90% of your previous post was made up of asserted facts.



> For the 70 million other dogs who don't have the bullet proof genetics,
> eating the ingredients of purina everyday guarantee a degenerative
> disease.
> 
> You have a 3 out of 10 chance that purina will be fine for your dog.


How is that stating opinion?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

We see this all the time. Somebody new rides into town, claiming many years of experience and expecting everyone to bow down in reverence.

There may be some valuable experience and information there but, if the presentation sucks, it's all lost.

Nobody has to listen to anyone here (except me, of course ) so, at some point, we all have to decide it we want others to listen.

An Internet forum is truly no place for someone who doesn't care what others think.

Of course, this isn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just sort of a general rant.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

> What
> I do know though, is that most people don't
> know what the difference is between good
> nutrition and bad nutrition and instead of admitting
> ...


I know the difference, and have researched foods for years. My dogs have been on nearly every single "good" food out there, including raw. And I couldn't find one food where ALL my guys did great on it. At one time, I was feeding 5 different foods! One was on Core Fish, several were on EVO, two were on raw, one was on Innova puppy, and the rest on Innova adult. What in the world... looking back, I must've been crazy, because obviously certain foods weren't agreeing with some of the dogs. And even then, I still had some with gas, shedding, mushy poo, vomiting, ect.

And it's not unrelated when someone's dog lives to be 24 on a food that you claim causes such horribly ill health and shortened lifespan. There's been a dog that lived to 27 on a vegan diet, one to 26 on a vegetarian diet, and some well into their teens on a raw diet. So in the end, it seems that MANY foods (Purina all the way to raw) can be perfect and great and wonderful and NUTRITIONAL for many dogs if they are surviving and THRIVING on the diet.

I'm starting to feel, and this may just be me, that you joined here purely to bash lower-line foods and to push 'better' foods. Because almost every single post from the time you jonied has been touting good foods and attacking ones that don't meet your standard.

And I find this thread was staying relatively civil up until that point.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

RetrieverGirl41 said:


> Do you see what "opinions" can do?
> 
> I wasn't attacking anyone....I was just giving
> my opinion. What happened when I gave that
> ...


 
You were given an infraction because YOU took an insulting tone to our members. That was a private matter between you and the Moderator. I'm now locking the discussion due to your Continued behavior.


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