# Illusion collar by Ceasar Millan-anyone ever use??



## Vgirl (Jan 8, 2008)

HI, I have almost year and half old husky that as you can imagine pulls me everywhere. I finally order a video by The Dog Whisperer and started using his methods for walking. Keeping the collar high on chin and neck. This worked really great at first, except it keeps slipping and I think I am losing the effectiveness of the whole method. I have had such a great improvement with him even though the collar is lower than it should be. He is still slightly pulling and wanting to be in the lead, I am not able to keep him at my side without hanging on the the choke collar. I was wondering if there was anyone out there that has bought and used this Illusion Collar and how well it actually worked. And if you have had lasting results. I am considering this as his nature to pull is so strong. I do sled him through the winter so that he does get to pull, but I would really like to take him for a long walk without the struggle. Any thoughts??


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I have never tried the Illusion Collar, but I can see how it would work well. I would probably trade in the choke for a pinch collar. They look awful, but are really more humane and more useful.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Vgirl said:


> Any thoughts??


What are his motivations?


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## Vgirl (Jan 8, 2008)

Yes, I should change to a pinch collar, but I will be visiting a female Dog Whisperer in our area and she doesn't use any of these. So I'm a little lost as to what to do in the mean time. 


Who's motivations are you referring to??


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Vgirl said:


> Who's motivations are you referring to??


I have some thoughts, but I'd like to know what the dog's motivations are. I'd rather you use the dog's motivations to teach the dog how to walk with a loose leash, rather than rely on a tool to force compliance.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

What does your dog get crazy about? Is it chicken? A green ball? I good rub down? What makes him do whatever you want?


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Curb is talking about food, toys, etc. If you can hold a little piece of something yummy in your hand, for example, the dog might be likely to walk with his nose up against your fist until you hand the treat over.

In defense of the pinch collar, I have had success with one the only time I have resorted to it. It was a training tool and I suppose it did "force" the behavior. But we only used it for about two weeks before the dog got the point and walked like a lady for the rest of her life.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FilleBelle said:


> In defense of the pinch collar, I have had success with one the only time I have resorted to it. It was a training tool and I suppose it did "force" the behavior. But we only used it for about two weeks before the dog got the point and walked like a lady for the rest of her life.


That's wonderful and remarkable in such a short period of time, but my beliefs are too much emphasis is placed on using aversion in training, when in fact, we have a lifetime to bond and train with our dogs. It goes back to the age old question, _why have a dog?_, if we aren't willing to spend the time learning about the dog and how the dog learns using motivations he can enjoy. 

I don't have problems with tools (and I'll use the cliche), when they are used properly, and add this, when they are proven to be effective. The fact is most people don't use these tools properly nor test their effectiveness. So why start building a collection of these tools, while avoiding the real issue, lack of training? That's my philosophy, and I'm sure it's not shared by the Cesarites.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

Curbside,

I completely agree with the idea that people put far too much emphaisis on tools vs. training. I think the tool (be it prong or halter) serve a great purpose in that they help stimulate a bond between the dog and owner before they train. I persoanlly am more comfortable using the prong but thats just me.

I had someone in my store looking for a dog (to adopt). She made sure to tell me that she wanted a well adjusted, trained dog (good luck with that) , because she didn't have time to train. Why even get a dog?


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## agile_bc (Feb 25, 2008)

I've used the illusion on Joy...from what I've observed, it depends on the dog. Joy is not undertrained, but she's reactive. I've used the illusion a few times on her, and wasn't impressed. I prefer sticking with my good ol' prong collar, when a training collar is in need. I prefer to stick with her martingale. I am one of the odd few people who learn how to use a prong effectively and correctly, and know when to stop (or start, actually) using it. I think there would be a lot less behavioral issues with dogs in this world if people stopped and learned about the equipment being used on the them, right down to the leash and collar.


As for the pulling thing: I would have taught him how to walk nicely on a leash before teaching him how to pull on a sled. To me, this is one thing that wouldn't make sense. Do I teach my dog how to pull me first, so I don't have an arm left? Or do I teach him how to walk good first, and risk being pulled a little slower?.

I would start out with a plain buckle collar, and a leash, and whole lot of what ever he likes. We want walking next to you on a loose lead to be the most rewarding you can make it. Walk with him, and keep feeding him treats when he's by your side. If he leaves, then stop feeding and act disinterested. If he re-engages, have him at your side and keep doing this. Eventually you'll be able to start gradually fading out the treats around the house. When you do this, start all over again at the begining, except out side. Keep doing this whenever he gets distracted. This isn't the most detailed explanation ever, but this is the base method I used for getting Joy a nice obedience heel.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Curb, I have to clarify that the pinch collar was not a miracle tool. I had already been through a great deal with this dog and I am fairly certain that she knew what she was supposed to do on a leash and just wouldn't do it. She was the only dog I've ever owned that I'm convinced was evil, lol. At any rate, I think the prong just enforced a behavior she was already familiar with. It didn't really teach her anything she didn't already know.


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## Cassie Nova (Dec 24, 2006)

I'm not implying that you all are wrong, because there is certainly nothing wrong with the methods mentioned. But there are exceptions.

My girl has fear issues, and that is usually when she pulls - if a stressor appears. Thing is, when that happens, she doesn't hear me ask her to sit, nor does she care to snack on a treat or play with a toy. All she wants is to get AWAY from the stressor and back to our safe, house. Now, sometimes she pulls when a dog is running a fence line and she's stuck on the other side, or when we run into my dad or a friend that she likes. Usually, a simple VERBAL correction (I use "ah!") snaps her out of it and she's gotten alot better. But, that doesn't work when she's afraid. 

The thing I've found that works is to teach a look command. Usually, that command is something Cassie will respond to, though I'm not sure why. All I know is my agility instructor suggested it and Cassie won't walk forward with her head turned around, so she is forced to stop and often this calms her from whatever she was freaking out over!

Good luck & have fun!


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

I have the Illusion Collar, and it's not too bad. It's not perfect, but it does work to an extent.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

rvamutt said:


> I think the tool (be it prong or halter) serve a great purpose in that they help stimulate a bond between the dog and owner before they train.


That's an interesting thought, though I'd have a tough time believing an aversion (that's what these tools do) stimulate a bond. I'd be more apt to believe the access to the activity helps to stimulate a bond, but it's the activity and not the tool (aversion) that allows that.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

You're splitting hairs. Making a dog avoid (aversion) a specific activity (pulling) can very well make a person more willing to bond with the dog by walking it, taking it out etc. Then the person sees that the dog is clever and worth training. Not the ideal order but it works.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

rvamutt said:


> I had someone in my store looking for a dog (to adopt). She made sure to tell me that she wanted a well adjusted, trained dog (good luck with that) , because she didn't have time to train. Why even get a dog?


They want the companionship. To be able to have a furry friend to spoil (yes, I know a spoiled dog = one that will lose training) and to keep them company. I guess you'll think I'm a bad person but I can sympathize. I am in the midst of training Aurora but I'm only motivated by having the end product, a dog that has manners I can deal with and is manageable. I realize training is a life long thing but I'm hoping once I get the basics down it will come down to maintaining those behaviors by reinforcing them sometimes. 

I'd eventually like to end up with a dog that I can trust around my cats, my stuff, and that walks nicely on a leash (I've gotten her to where she only pulls a little on our regular neighborhood walks but if she sees another dog/person or I take her some where new she goes back to pulling and going nuts and it drives me nuts. Honestly, that's still my least favorite behavior by her, when she gets excited on the leash and lunges towards something and won't stop). I'm working with her so I can end up with a dog like that but I did not get her because I wanted to train a dog. I just consider it goes with the territory (specially since I got a puppy... totally forgot I didn't want a puppy. Only ever had another puppy once, well my mom did and he drove me crazy as a puppy as well. He's a great dog now. And I think Aurora will be a great dog too long as I don't mess her up with bad training. She has so much potential to be an awesome dog).



rvamutt said:


> You're splitting hairs. Making a dog avoid (aversion) a specific activity (pulling) can very well make a person more willing to bond with the dog by walking it, taking it out etc. Then the person sees that the dog is clever and worth training. Not the ideal order but it works.


Yep. I spent one walk with Aurora not moving every time she pulled and htat has vastly improved her walking manners (as seen above she still has stuff I need to work on). I gotta say my walk got a lot more enjoyable after I got her stopping pulling so hard my hand was cramping from holding on the leash so tight, my arm was sore from trying to restrain her, and I was being almost pulled off my feet (all from a less than 30 lb dog, I guess that's the husky in her). Unfortunately I tried that method to further get her to stop pulling entirely (She's not entirely loose leash though sometimes she is) and many times when she pulls now she is getting distracted by neighborhood dogs or people and doesn't care if we stop or not so doesn't even notice I stopped. I'm trying the turn around and walk the other way a foot or so method now.

She still has her issues and I gotta talk to the trainer about it cause I find the times I've gotten angry at her is when she lunges at the leash for wahtever reason and causes me to almost fall over, drop something, knock something over, or just have to try to contain this pulling/lunging dog.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

The most important training "tool" one needs is the relationship between you and your dog. Using aversive so-called "training collars" and (aversive) training methods does nothing but erode that relationship, and without it, training is a struggle, at best. Training should be FUN! Training builds, and deepens the bond with our dogs, and opens the channels of communication. There is nothing more exciting than communicating effectively, and that's a two-way street. 

I have a hard time understanding why people set their dogs up to fail when it comes to loose-leash walking. Pulling is a natural reaction for a dog on lead who has had no training! 

The first thing needed is to get (and keep) the dog's attention, then train for walking nicely on lead in an area *without distractions*. When the dog "gets it" first, inside the house, in the back yard, and front yard, then, and only then, do you go out to other locations to proof the behavior. By this time, your puppy/dog already has some level of understanding what you want, and when or if you're pleased with his response to what you are asking/communicating. 

Right now I'm fostering a litter of 4 Mini Poodle-mix puppies who are going on 11 wks. old. They are potty trained (in that they know what to do and where to do it), walk nicely on lead, can sit, down, come, back up, retrieve, shake, and have (through target and bridge work) learned to touch nose or paw to what target stick is pointed at. When I have their leads in hand, they all race toward, and sit in front of me, holding still while I buckle up the collar (may have jet-propelled happy wagging butts 'n tails, but sitting because that's what they've learned comes first - before the exciting adventure outside! ALL was taught/trained without any use of aversives, using OC +R only. They are SO proud and prancy dancy happy when I praise, reward, and "throw a party" when they get it, and that's what it's all about. Getting wanted behaviors you've taught from a puppy/dog who WANTS to!


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

I use the "chokecollar" to teach, it should have his old name back and be called a trainingcollar. I agree with poodleholic- the tool is not as important as how you use it. I teach the dogs not the stretch the leash, not to "pick up the Snap" that connects the leash to the collar. If they do, twist your wrist, so the collar "nips", then - as the dogs looks at you, praise, but keep standing straight up. With dogs that have a insecurity issue thats very important- they are looking for leadership, not playmates. I also leave the leash hanging- the snap has to hang and some of the leash under it- the snap is regarded like a telephone- if you have nothing to say, dont pick it up. I know Ceasar Milan does it different, try it though- the object of the game is to not have to use a leash at all, so why let the dogs find security in the pressure and not with you? As I keep the leash loose, the dogs learn to keep one eye on momma and I keep praising- they are eager to please and be with "their" leader. When I start the dogs, I stand still while they learn what I am asking with the leash- so everytime they try to leave my circle of the leash, as soon as the snap lifts, "something" nips them out there- then momma praises, so they stick with me and relax. Make sure the hand stays relaxed, not to "snap " from the elbow- that would with be a "demand", the wrist is a "request", is softer. When I start to walk, I wiggle the leash with my fingers, let them know that I am getting ready to request something- at times I combine that with kisses- the noise of it, then start to take some steps. As they want to get ahead or not pay attention to me, I stop- they correct themselves, I praise as the correction occurs. After a few times they become very sensitive to the leash and your requests- thats what I am looking for, now I can walk more. At first they tend to walk all over the place too, I dont care, we focus on the pressure first- I dont want any pressure with the leash, then I can teach to walk on one side. We do the same with our horses here, no matter where we are, we dont use a "studchain" over the nose, no pulling, no pushing, but very calm, relaxed animals that have trust in our leadership no matter where we are, so if we can do this with 1100 pounds, why not with our dogs? As they relax with you, they can focus more on pleasing you and not waste energy in being afraid, so you can ask more even in scary or unfamiliar settings. In general I dont need to use a leash with my dogs anymore, if we get to any setting where they dont feel secure, they come close and sit with me. Watch your voice- that you dont have a higher pitch then your normal talking voise- higher pitches mean your's whining and afraid of something, even though you just do the humane "trying to comfort and re-assure" thing- to the dog its a whine- so if momma is afraid now, where is the leadership?


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

So you use a purely complusive method of training? How do you teach sit and down? You should do some research on how much the choke (even if used properly) can damage a dog.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

You cannot teach a kid to read if they dont know the ABC- we use the "chokecollar" in Germany and really never use it- its not the tool, its how you use it and its not "compulsive" but very carefully used, so in a very short time, you dont have to use any leash at all since the dog understands who the leader is - so the leash turns into something almost decorative and used very seldom. I'm not out to "damage" any dog- that would defeat the purpose- but think like a dog, then apply it, take little steps, then put it together
Edited to ask

BTW what is the lesson taught by Ceasar Milan to continuously apply pressure when holding the leash tight?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

rvamutt said:


> You're splitting hairs. Making a dog avoid (aversion) a specific activity (pulling) can very well make a person more willing to bond with the dog by walking it, taking it out etc. Then the person sees that the dog is clever and worth training. Not the ideal order but it works.


Nope, no splitting hairs here, I'm attempting to be accurate. Unless you can explain how an aversion stimulates a comforting Pavlovian experience in the dog, typical of what a good a bonding experience is, the aversion does not, can not, enhance the bond...as you are suggesting. What we can say, however, is that the act of walking enhances the bond between human and dog because it's rewarding to the relationship, and assuming the walk is pleasant for both the dog and human. 

I believe what you're also trying to suggest is that if the human enjoys the walk, because the dog isn't pulling, the human and dog can bond. That's not necessarily true either, and not very good justification in using the tool IMO, as it does not consider the emotional conditioning of the dog. The only way to justify using an aversion is when success is absent with conventional training, and the trainer's mechanical skill is deemed good by an authoritative party. In other words, training is failing, so now we should consider aversion for the safety of both human and dog.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> That's an interesting thought, though I'd have a tough time believing an aversion (that's what these tools do) stimulate a bond. I'd be more apt to believe the access to the activity helps to stimulate a bond, but it's the activity and not the tool (aversion) that allows that.


I don't think the Illusion collar uses aversion. It simply uses a mechanical mechanism to hold a flat collar higher on the neck.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tcasby said:


> I don't think the Illusion collar uses aversion. It simply uses a mechanical mechanism to hold a flat collar higher on the neck.


It's a tool to keep the choker high. The choke (at a leash correction) is the aversion. There's no utility for this type of collar if you just teach the dog how to walk on a loose lead, and avoid leash corrections.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

Ok- now I am curious? What do you do? How do you get a dogs attention when they have never been taught to stop pulling ? And how to establish yourself as packleader without being "harsh"? I have and continue seeing allot of people to "humanize" their dogs and forgetting that to do that, you disrespect the species itself. I bond with all my dogs- in a very short time - and they are all very happy and eager to please, eager to learn new things. They trust me whenever I bring a new dog in, they are not aggressive even when a new dog tries to be and all in all- as I treat each of my different species animal with the respect they deserve- they get along great- that means horses, dogs, cats, chickens all mingle in my yard- along with my kids. New animals get properly taught and introduced, so by the time they get to "join the crowd" without any leash, I dont have any problems. But in everything we do here- the human remains the alpha over all the animals- my kids get taught good stewards ship over all the animals as well- I believe that to abuse a animal will always come back and bite you in the butt, but that doesnt mean that you cannot discipline and be firm-you have to- yet it all has to be in a balance


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

shewolf4 said:


> How do you get a dogs attention when they have never been taught to stop pulling?


 Attention and pulling are two separate and independent behaviors. So, I train these behaviors separately, starting in my home, off leash at first, and in the least distracting environment. As the dog makes improvement, I increase the level of distraction, add the leash, so on so forth, such that walking on a loose leash around the block becomes not only a trained behavior, but a rewarding one. That’s how I prefer to start.

Now for the dog that pulls, and one I don’t have access or time to train first, it depends on the dog…it depends on what the dog’s motivations are. Some dogs do well by abandoning them of the walk…this motivates them to chase and follow. Some dogs are food motivated, and by simply capturing the attention and rewarding appropriate walking placement, or by luring them, we make progress that way. Some dogs enjoy a game of tug, so using a tug toy as a lure and a reward can be used to teach loose leash walking. Some dogs respond well to doing nothing, they try different behaviors until one is right, and they learn that way. So, it depends on the dog, and there are many ways to teach a dog how not to pull. 



> And how to establish yourself as packleader without being "harsh"?


 Why is it even a question what place in an assumed pack I am in or the dog thinks he’s in? The only thing I need to establish is a training habit and pattern, beyond that, my ego doesn’t need to be groomed for the dog to be happy. 

What’s your definition of harsh? We can’t even begin to discuss what that means unless you define it. 



> I have and continue seeing allot of people to "humanize" their dogs and forgetting that to do that, you disrespect the species itself.


 What does humanizing mean to you in terms of how we treat dogs? How do you define respect in the dog world? What do you observe that indicates a lack of respect?




> and they are all very happy and eager to please, eager to learn new things.


 Give me an example. What do you observe in your dog that illustrates eagerness and willingness to learn? This sounds a lot like you want to humanize the dog, so please tell me where I’m off. 



> But in everything we do here- the human remains the alpha over all the animals- my kids get taught good stewards ship over all the animals as well- I believe that to abuse a animal will always come back and bite you in the butt, but that doesnt mean that you cannot discipline and be firm-you have to- yet it all has to be in a balance


 Again, how do you know you remain alpha? Are you suggesting you can read the dog’s mind? That’s a unique ability, so, what am I thinking at this moment? Why does it matter if you can identify the problem and effectively solve it? What are your definitions of discipline, firm, and balance? 

My cousin’s 6 year old daughter trains their Great Dane…it’s an amusing sight to see…big dog, small child. Would you accept this 6 year old dog trainer to discipline a large breed dog? If so, how do you propose she do it? If not, how should she maintain “balance” and be “firm” when the dog doesn’t comply? Why is it acceptable in some cases but not in others? 

IMO, being “alpha” serves only one purpose…to justify the methods used by the handler. This IMO is a ridiculous notion. I don’t need to place myself on a pedestal to understand what behavior is appropriate, what behavior is improving, or what behavior is inappropriate and not improving, or how to modify behavior. To assert that being “alpha” ends all inappropriate behavior or is what the dog needs…works, until it doesn’t work. And if it doesn’t always work, why should I care to use it? Perhaps by needing (a human need) to be “alpha”, I’m missing what the real problem is…and 99 times out of 100, it’s my failure as a trainer that’s causing poor behavior. So I agree we should apply discipline, but honestly I don’t care to walk around with a bruised forehead after I’ve banged my head on a wall. I’d rather change my behavior to affect the dog’s.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

Curbside Prophet- I agree with you to a large extend and I also have seen children teach/ train dogs with wonderful success. I am not "reading" my dogs mind, but their eagerness in bodylanguage - their eyecontact, their desire level. As for "Harsh" - have seen "trainers" - and I use this term loosely- kick dogs, yell at dogs, bribe them with all kinds of food, use spike collars on them- just to get one little result that should've/ could've been solved in a better way- in some instances I was asked to continue with the handling and the proof was in the pudding as they say. I by no means will ever put myself on any pedestal, just trying to understand the dogs and teach them so the co-existence becomes a partnership with more understanding. To "humanize" - to dress them up is just a start, to keep feeding their cute little baby goodies for bad behavior because they are just soooo cute is common also, try not to let them walk because they are just soo little or they hate that silly leash or they bite you because the poor little puppy just dont know any better.... there are plenty of other examples, from feeding, to handling them with little babyvoices- kinda funny really. In general I tell people that you cannot expect your dog to be smart, but then treat them like they're stupid, so start treating them like theyre smart. When I go outside- yes - my dogs like to spend their day outside lounging- I have my dogs look up, see me and come to see what we're doing next. No jumping up, no fighting, maybe bring a toy for fetch games, but they all come and "have" to see, ready for action. If I dont do anything interesting, they will go back to whaever spot they choose for the day and chill. When the kids come out- that is always playtime- with treats  but at least the kids make them do little things like "sit" or "roll over" and once you see with what gusto these pups follow through, you wouldnt have to ask how I know that they are eager to learn. As for remaining "alpha" - that means that for my dogs - and my other animals- there is a respect that no matter how wild they may play, when they come within arm reach of us, they calm down. When I call them, there is eyecontact and holding- until I ask for something or I praise and release. It takes time to get them to that point, but its so worth it. So I am guessing here- but maybe, just maybe we are trying the same thing here- to train people, to teach dogs and also to teach the next generation. I apologize if some things may not be clear- in all seriousness, english is my second language and I have found that I am not very good in writing something or explaining without someone asking and me having to find a different way of explaining what I am trying to say, so I also have to thank you for asking questions and will try to explain while continue to learn


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

shewolf4 said:


> I am not "reading" my dogs mind, but their eagerness in bodylanguage - their eyecontact, their desire level.


 I’m not trying to be critical, but I think it’s very important that when we talk about these things, so we’re clear on what we mean by our statements, and I find the above statement somewhat confusing because my point of view may be different than yours. You say you read their eagerness in their body language…what does the dog do that suggests its eagerness? Spin in circles? Hop on three legs? Flick his earl like a conductor does his wand? Is it eagerness? Or is it really, just behavior? 

Eye contact: many dogs avoid eye contact as a calming signal. If a dog is actively avoiding eye contact to diffuse a stressful situation, would you say the dog is eagerly trying to avoid a conflict? If the dog recognized you were upset and avoided eye contact as a calming signal, would you call this dog not eager? 

What are the levels of desire? How do we measure desire? 



> As for "Harsh" - have seen "trainers" - and I use this term loosely- kick dogs, yell at dogs, bribe them with all kinds of food, use spike collars on them- just to get one little result that should've/ could've been solved in a better way- in some instances I was asked to continue with the handling and the proof was in the pudding as they say.


 My definition of harsh is this… Using an aversive that causes stress or any other unwanted respondent behaviors. Kicking dogs, yes there’s no logical reason to kick a dog, though I have done so during play to egg my dog on. Yelling, perhaps, but I believe yelling is necessary especially when boundary proofing a dog. Bribery, not harsh IMO, just ignorant. Training tools, again, it depends on why they are being used, if they are being used properly, and if they are being tested for effectiveness. So your definition of harsh requires examples to be clear. No harm in that. 



> To "humanize" - to dress them up is just a start, to keep feeding their cute little baby goodies for bad behavior because they are just soooo cute is common also, try not to let them walk because they are just soo little or they hate that silly leash or they bite you because the poor little puppy just dont know any better.... there are plenty of other examples, from feeding, to handling them with little babyvoices- kinda funny really.


 This sounds more like a personal preference…one that I share on occasion. But please don’t tell me I can’t use my doggie voice with my dog! 

To me, humanizing a dog is not so what people do to their dogs (dressing them up, treating them like a baby) but, in how we apply human emotions to our dogs. Eagerness, desire, respect…these are things humans have defined. I don’t know that, we know what the dog definitions are. All we can really do is observe behavior. So, if I talk to my dog in a doggie voice, and that elicits play, am I humanizing my dog? Not really. If however, I talk to my dog in a doggie voice and she bites me, and I say my dog is just being grumpy (human word) today…that’s to humanize a dog, and to justify the behavior with human emotions…not good. 



> As for remaining "alpha" - that means that for my dogs - and my other animals- there is a respect that no matter how wild they may play, when they come within arm reach of us, they calm down.


 So what you’re describing is not really what alpha is, but behavior (calm behavior). Well, the “alpha” is typically the calmest member of the pack, is it not? So aren’t you encouraging your animals to be “alpha”? You may come to learn that I don’t like the word “alpha” because of what it connotes. I don’t personally find the word useful as it does not describe what the behavior is. 



> So I am guessing here- but maybe, just maybe we are trying the same thing here- to train people, to teach dogs and also to teach the next generation. I apologize if some things may not be clear- in all seriousness, english is my second language and I have found that I am not very good in writing something or explaining without someone asking and me having to find a different way of explaining what I am trying to say, so I also have to thank you for asking questions and will try to explain while continue to learn


 No, your English is perfectly fine, and better than 99% of the English only speakers on this forum. Please don’t confuse my questions with a desire to badger you or as a sign that I don’t understanding you. Just the opposite, I enjoy the communication, and really, I want to be clear on what we’re talking about here. Because, one of the biggest problems in animal training is that no two people have the same definition of words like punishment, reinforcement, bribery, alpha, ect, as you suggested (we may be talking about the same thing).


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## Vgirl (Jan 8, 2008)

WOW-I can not believe all the input and different thoughts everyone has. I am really appreciative of everyones input. It has really made me think. I have been dealing with stronger issues of dominance and some aggression with other dogs. He comes from a line of sled dogs and it is in his blood to run and pull. Yes, it would have been wonderful if I could have trained him not to pull the leash in the first place, before teaching him to sled. But I failed at that and just gave in to where I was running behind him and teaching him his sledding commands. And most of the time this worked out great for both of us, as we both love to run. But it also started to wear on me as I found I didn't want to run everyday, I would like to walk. Which has started me on this journey of finding out how to do it. So, I have a breed meant for pulling, that I have let be the lead dog on all of our walks, until just recently, and it seems nothing I have tried has worked so I quit trying and tried to work with the dog and his nature to the best of my ablility. Now after a year and a half I am trying to start over. I haven't let him sled anymore because of the confusion to him, but that also leaves a very energentic dog with less of an outlet. 

And rvamutt to answer your question about what motivates him...probably any treats or sqeaky toys. 

And as far as I understand about Ceasar Millan's methods with keeping the collar high, it is not held tight, at least that is my understanding and correction is used to keep the dog from leading. The theory is that where a usual collar is in place around the neck, is the strongest part of the neck, which is why they can pull. But the higher on the neck the collar is, it hits a more sensitive part of the neck that responds quicker because of this sensitivity. It takes very little actual force and the dog responds quickly. 

It is really fascinating to me how the methods of dog training have changed so drastically in the last 10-20 years. What has been the norm for so many years has now considered abusive in nature. I agree and love the new methods, positive training and pack-leader training. But I am still learning them as I grew up on the old methods. The understanding of dogs and their relationships have also changed and there many more people coming up with many different methods. So I know it will take some trial and error to find what works best for my dog. I am just now re-establishing that I am the lead dog. I have not been doing that in all areas. There are many that I am consistant with, but my frustration level was becoming too much for both of us and so I used his leading on the walks to use as a tool to train for sledding. I really didn't realize I could or was doing any harm. And most of the time it was fun for both of us. I would actually prefer not to use any tool, I would prefer he learn the difference between his leash and his harness. He is a also a very strong willed dog by nature and has a mind of his own. Which can also make things very difficult. He has defiently been the most challenging dog I have ever own. And he is always testing me. Most of the time I don't give in, but other times I get frustrated and angry at myself and him for the things I'm doing wrong and don't know how to correct them. In reading this whole forum and many of the forums it is easy to see that everyone has their own opinions and ideas, and there is so much info out now, that is it hard to know exactly what is the right thing to do and what will really work for my dog and I. It isn't as simple and easy as it used to be, which can also make it very confusing and frustrating for the dog and me. It really makes it tough. I am open to suggestions and appreciate the ones that you all have given. It has made me think twice about a few things. And I am here to learn. I have already had dramatic changes with him, not just in walking, but many other areas. It is almost like having a different dog. So something must be working. And I agree, I, like many probably do not know how to use a choke or prong collar properly, which is means I'm probably doing more damage than good. 

This is why I will be making an appt. with our local Dog Whisperer. To learn how to do things different and more effectively. This is the first time I have ever had to pay someone to help me train one of my dogs. It has taken the last year and half of trying to work with him with books and videos and I have come to realize I need some one-on-one with someone who knows more than me. I would have never asked for help before, but than I never had such a problem with my dog as I have with him. I am really just trying to get by until we have our first appt. 

Thank you to everyone who answered. This means a great deal to me.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Curbside im learning alot from you also.
Do you study dog physcology or something similar?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Mr Pooch said:


> Do you study dog physcology or something similar?


I'm merely a student of dogs, like many here. "Dog psychology" is a relatively new term made popular by the self proclaimed "whisperer" with a TV show. So no, I don't study that, but I do study the laws of great minds like Skinner, Pavlov, and others...because I enjoy it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have stayed out of this thread because I have had nothing to add.. but I have this to add now. 

Having a background in the more classical training techniques I am learning the positive reinforcement techniques now. I read and read.. and go to dog Skool as money allows with a Positive Reinforcement trainer. IOW's I TRY to fit my self to a different way of training than the ways I have used before that were VERY successful. I had VERY well trained and well behaved dogs that were a pleasure to own and work with. 

It is HARD to learn a new way to get it done. Sometimes I mix in the old way.. not a lot.. if I just cannot get it done any other way (yeah.. the failing is mine and I admit it). 

I am finding it is MUCH easier to teach an old dog New Tricks than to teach an Old Trainer New Tricks... 

I do know this.. my dog is very happy to work, which I attribute to this whole clicker/Skinner thing. She walks on a lead and does not pull and I will look at her and she is walking along wagging her tail for no apparent reason. I never had a dog walk on a leash with no one around other than me and just wag her tail as she goes along. 

I am doing some of this very right.. some of it I stumble thru.. either way, my dog is the happiest dog I have ever owned and that is worth the learning curve I am working through right now.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Gosh, I am learning a ton from this thread too! CP, you are always so insightful.

Elena, I wanted to clear up what you said (so I'm sure I understand  ). Using the positive reinforcement your dog is wagging his tail and happy walking, so you would say you prefer this method to the more "traditional" methods?


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

Positive re-enforcement works, no doubt about that and I am very happy that you have such success- I think as long as we keep a open mind and keep on learning- each dog, each encounter gives us a new, different outlook, new challenges and new learning
Congratulations 

Positive re-enforcement works, no doubt about that and I am very happy that you have such success- I think as long as we keep a open mind and keep on learning- each dog, each encounter gives us a new, different outlook, new challenges and new learning
Congratulations  I am happy that you are at this point and agree with you

ooops- double post- sorry








Happy fingers I guess


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Ok... I got suckered in. First and foremost, my only experience in this area is: I have two Malamutes and a friend's Husky who are now capable of walking in a group at heel, or out front, and respond to all turn and stop/slow commands with 90% reliability (10% being squirrels, yes, they've gotten past other dogs for those of you familiar with the saga). One thing I've noticed is no matter what material you get your hands on, written or spoken by trainer, they all tell you their way is the only way and not to mix techniques (but most of the time food was ignored, what to do?). Sure. Against what a lot of people would tell you, the only technique that got the dogs to heel was Koehler. You don't have to use the "choke collar" to get the desired results either (against what Koehler would say). What got them completely observant of me was the first step in which you take the dog out on a fifteen foot lead and let him do whatever he is going to do. At a pace *you* decide, make your way to an open area where you can walk in a square with 50'-100' sides, the dog WILL be pulling. Once at open area STOP. I sat down with the mp3 player, you just need to stay put for 3-5 minutes, totally ignoring dog. Who at this point is probably nudgnig or even pawing. Ignore it ALL, even the squealing howls that Husky's do. Then make your way around the square stopping at the corners for 3-5 minutes. That's it. After 10 days I had dogs that were very interested in my movements, they were heeling with a 15' lead dragging the ground from slack. *My* project started when I put all the dogs together. I personally think you didn't "do any harm" by teaching the sled commands where you did. Just don't use those commands unless he's out front. Don't be afraid to take what you read here an what you get from trainers and mix it. Dogs are very resiliant, their behavior is somewhat relative to averages. If you try something and it doesn't work in 3-5 tries, stop. It is much easier to sway an average with only five points of measure versus 20... 








(A grain of salt. Take this and keep it handy.)


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## Cassie Nova (Dec 24, 2006)

tcasby said:


> I don't think the Illusion collar uses aversion. It simply uses a mechanical mechanism to hold a flat collar higher on the neck.


 That looks like a torture device! I don't think I'd put that on my dog...


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

It's definitely not a torture device. It does give you more control, as it keeps your leash at the upper part of the neck where you have more control. And it's not used where you snap the collar either, just a slight pull up raises the dogs head and keeps his focus up rather than at the ground where he can sniff. This is handy to teach him to focus on you.


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## Cassie Nova (Dec 24, 2006)

I know it's not one, but it looks like one!  Personally, I don't put things like that on my dog. Just never have. I use a flat buckle collar or a martingale so she doesn't slip out. I probably could have taught Cassie to heel already with one, but I figure that if I never use one to begin with, I'll never need it later.


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## Kimber (Jan 9, 2008)

Since we are talking collars and leads and stopping pulling, what is everyones opinion of the Halti harness that goes around their muzzle. It is the only thing I have found that keeps bailey from pulling as he likes to scout ahead and check out that things are okay.

When I can walk with him off lead I have found after using the halti that all I need say now is "with me" and he comes right to my side, as that is the command I would use when he started pulling, I even went so far as to limp or walk really slowly like I was hurt to get his attention, treats never worked, but the halti and my dramatics did, now he is a pleasure to walk, but I can't just walk him with a regular collar as he reverts to the pulling and he is a strong dog.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

It is not the tool, it is how you use it. 
I also would NEVER state that "my" way would be the only way- nonsense- I would prohibit myself from learning and that would be stupid- I cant abide stupid. 
As for teaching Huskies not to pull- yes you can- just look at them when they pull sleds- they have to be able to "brake" on request. I too like to take my dogs out in the open- my horses too for that matter - and I am so blessed to have the space that we have, that we frequently have visitors from town for play- kids for flying kites and hot chocolate  dogs for the fun of it and horses to play with


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

MyCharlie said:


> Gosh, I am learning a ton from this thread too! CP, you are always so insightful.
> 
> Elena, I wanted to clear up what you said (so I'm sure I understand  ). Using the positive reinforcement your dog is wagging his tail and happy walking, so you would say you prefer this method to the more "traditional" methods?


I prefer the results of the positive reinforcement method over traditional methods in my dog, but its a BEAR to learn if you have ALWAYS done it the other way.. or it is for me. LOL

When I tell Atka "go ahead" which is her release, she is allowed to walk ahead of me.. anywhere as long as she is not pulling on her leash, so she can pee/poo and just enjoy the walk without being under a specific command (like 'by me' which is like heel but not requiring as intense focus). As we walk along the road she is slightly ahead of me and she is just walking and wagging her tail. Not focused on me or working but just seems to be enjoying the walk. 

Of course, when she has done this for awhile I will say to her, "Oh boy.. dog wagging looks like thinking trouble to me!" and she looks back at me and wags even harder. This dog NEVER shuts her brain off, so I don't know if she is walking along looking for something to get into (play with) or if she is hoping to see a new cat (she loves cats.. and wants them ALL to be her friends, in spite of what the cats might think) or if she is just being happy looking around at things.. 

The point in all training is to ultimately have an obedient dog. Beyond that, if you can have a HAPPY obedient dog I think you have a LOT MORE and everyone is having fun. 

I agree that no single method is always good or perfect in any trainer's hands. Try different things. Some dogs will do better than others under any given method as will some trainers. 

Quite honestly I have seen someone who trains traditionally at dog club and her dogs wag and are as happy and as focused on her as any dogs I have seen trained with positive reinforcement. She has acheived perfect scores with her dogs in obedience trials. However, most people do not have the skill or the finess to do what she does. 

Positive reinforcement won't do DAMAGE, so I support the method. Eventually, with practice, anyone can learn it. Even me..


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

+1 Just going to add 1 addendum, Negative motivation *done properly* will also not ruin dogs. But there is a lot of human error when using negative motivation. Why take a chance if positive gets proper results and less worry.


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