# Rebellious dog?



## JamieCM (Jan 10, 2010)

My husband and I adopted a 2 year old beagle mix from a shelter last August. We seemed to be doing well enough teaching the dog the rules of the house, until my husband left in October for military training. Apparently, the dog only recognizes my husband as the 'alpha' and it really feels like he deliberately does things just to prove he's not going to obey me. 'Things' usually means peeing all over the place. We're (currently unsuccesfully) trying to teach him to not jump on the furniture. As the case in point, yesterday, I was pretty brutal in scolding/buzzing/shocking him every time he tried to jump on the couch. And the minute I turn my back, he jumps up on the couch and pees on the blanket I had spread across it. I didn't notice immediately, so I couldn't punish him for it. I removed the blanket, and pulled out a fresh one. Less than an hour later, he does the same thing again! This time I caught him in the act, and when I yelled, he immediately ran into his crate (something he doesn't normally do after a scold, so he knew he'd been bad. more often than not he doesn't respond to a scold at all, and I have to resort to the shock collar). He has ruined two pairs of my shoes, and I don't think there's a spot of carpet he HASN'T peed on. It's not a housetraining issue, he goes to the door just fine when he has to pee, and he's not marking either (he pees like a girl). It really feels like he's doing it just to act out and prove that he doesn't recognize me as the alpha. I don't know what else I can do. I'm afraid of making him mean by disciplining him too much, and it all seems to be connected to the discipline anyways. When I stop trying to train him, he 'behaves' better, but then I end up starting over at square one in breaking his bad habits.

Does anyone have ANY clues or ideas about what I can do?? I really want to buy a new couch, but there's no way I'm going to when I can't trust him to not pee all over it the first chance he gets!


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

oh dear....









ok. first thing is this disclaimer: i am not trying to say you are a bad person or that you are abusing your dog.

but. 

it sounds like you are scaring the crap out of him and waaaay overusing punishment and not rewarding good behavior.

if he pees in the house it IS a housetraining issue unless there is some kind of urinary tract infection or similar malady going on in which case you would need to see a vet to rule that out.

dogs do not understand that scolding means what they have done is bad. they dont speak english. they understand tone sure...but they also do not always connect a consequence with an act unless the consequence comes DURING or IMMEDIATELY after the act. but in order for that to work...they need to understand what is RIGHT for them to do...and you have to SHOW THEM. and not just expect them to get it.

ditch the alpha fallacy. that is just that....a fallacy. what's happening is that he is scared of you. and to fix that you are going to have to backtrack a whole lot.

open up the training forum. there is a rather long list of stickys. read them. all of them. especially about positive reinforcement, NILIF and housetraining.

you got a long road ahead of you.

wow...just wow...


----------



## JamieCM (Jan 10, 2010)

that's what I've been terrified of, that I'm being TOO hard on him. and it hurts me to know those fears are justified.
And I also understand that he doesn't understand what I'm saying, but that he does recognize tone.
i DO praise him whenever he listens to me... happy talk, scratching his head, treats. But it doesn't stop him from doing it again 3 seconds later. (the behaviors of focus are like I said, jumping on the couch, and also standing up and putting his paws and nose on the kitchen counters/table) I don't know how else to positively reinforce something like not jumping up at the counters except for praising him for stopping.
And I'm careful to only scold him when I catch him in the act. If there's any delay, I don't do anything but try to pay more attention and catch it next time.
I did take him to the vet a few weeks ago to make sure he wasn't sick, and he's the one who suggested the whole 'alpha' idea, since it only started after my husband left.
I've never trained a dog before, this was supposed to be my husband's job.

thank you for the feedback.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

> that's what I've been terrified of, that I'm being TOO hard on him. and it hurts me to know those fears are justified.


dont be hurt. im not trying to hurt your feelings. im trying to help. just think of this..you are asking for advice. that's a good thing..the right thing to do. 





> And I also understand that he doesn't understand what I'm saying, but that he does recognize tone.
> i DO praise him whenever he listens to me... happy talk, scratching his head, treats. But it doesn't stop him from doing it again 3 seconds later. (the behaviors of focus are like I said, jumping on the couch, and also standing up and putting his paws and nose on the kitchen counters/table) I don't know how else to positively reinforce something like not jumping up at the counters except for praising him for stopping.


a really good way to use positive reinforcement is to learn how to clicker train. since that would be a major novel and it's already posted in the stickys..ill just say again..read the stickys lol..

but basically you want to reward ANY good behavior. whenever. use good yummy treats, a favorite toy and lots of praise. this will tell him when he is being good. 

start the NILIF program IMO. This is something that teaches your dog to ask for things and if you stay consistent with it you can use it with what is called premacks principle..for example

i had a trash dog. she liked to tip over the trash can and fish for goodies. so i taught her to sit by the trash can when she wanted something from it and when she got good at that i would pick out something harmless from the trash to give to her as a reward. it was a win/win situation. she got some trash and i didnt have to worry about her tipping it because she would ask nicely for it. 



> And I'm careful to only scold him when I catch him in the act. If there's any delay, I don't do anything but try to pay more attention and catch it next time.


instead of scolding. when you catch him in the act, try calmly walk to him, hook a leash to his collar and put him somewhere quiet and secure (safe and moderatly boring) and leave him for a few minutes(ignore any protest). you have to do this calmly but it works basically like time out for kids. 




> I did take him to the vet a few weeks ago to make sure he wasn't sick, and he's the one who suggested the whole 'alpha' idea, since it only started after my husband left.
> I've never trained a dog before, this was supposed to be my husband's job.


vets are great to talk to about pet health. on the subject of behavior they often lack. 

what you need to do is establish yourself as the giver of all things wonderful. and he needs to be polite if he wants to have some of your wonderful things. you do this with Nilif. 




> thank you for the feedback.



thank you for trying to get help. that shows you have it in you to be a really good owner...because you care enough to try.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I agree with almost everything Zim has said, besides clicker training, only because I know nothing of that. 

I'd ditch the shock collar too. It's obviously already associated with doing bad behaviours and having bad things happening to him, so maybe if you get rid of it, it will be like starting over with a clean slate. 

I'd start taking him out on a schedule as if he were a puppy. Everytime he wakes up, drinks some water, after meals, or playtime. When/if he goes outside, throw an effing party. Loads of treats, kisses, hugs, praise, and playtime. When he goes inside, completely ignore it, and clean in up with an enzymatic (??) cleaner. I believe this is the correct term. There are certain cleaners specifically for dog messes that rid the evidence of the area, so that the dogs can't smell it and are less likely to want to go there again because of smell.

As for the counter, teach him an Off command. Carry around a bag of treats with you; dog treats, or something like hot dog bits (this is what I use) or if he's not food motivated, a favorite toy. When he jumps up to the counter, say AH AH, Off and use the food or toy to lure him off the counter and into a sit. Then praise with the toy/treat of course with a lot of verbal happy praise as well.

I'm glad you realized that you may be in the wrong with the way you're disciplining him and have come here to get advice. Don't be too hard on yourself, we all make mistakes, just try some of these things mentioned by myself and others. I hope something will work.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

almost forgot...after you read the stickys...ask questions. ask any question even if it seems dumb. the only stupid question is the one that never got asked.

keep asking any questions as you go along. read. Ian Dunbar's training site is a good point to start finding materials. really awesome trainers post to it frequently.

and last. perservere. really. it will get frustrating at times. training is a gradual process. depending on the temperment of your dog, it can take seconds for him to learn a new behavior or it can take months. training is a two variable equation..your dog AND YOU.

and now in return for all that typing you must post pictures! how are we supposed to oogle your beautiful guy if you dont!?!?!


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> almost forgot...after you read the stickys...ask questions. ask any question even if it seems dumb. the only stupid question is the one that never got asked.
> 
> keep asking any questions as you go along. read. Ian Dunbar's training site is a good point to start finding materials. really awesome trainers post to it frequently.
> 
> ...


*nods* Yes, I need to see pictures, I absolutely adore beagles.


----------



## DogWiseUSA (Feb 16, 2010)

It's hard to know exactly what's going on without seeing it in action. That being said, to give you some more food for thought, it could be as simple as giving him some quality activities and proper guidance. The "alpha" status is a very real factor. Dogs are like us, they follow structure and hierarchy (boss, police, etc.) There is always a pack leader or pair. If you take to role of a leader in a fashion that makes sense to the dog, it becomes a bit easier to get the compliance you are looking for. Having a clear set of rules and boundaries that are adhered to, give a clear picture of what is expected of him. He craves the structure.
Make sure that when you are disciplining that you are not punishing. Discipline is a matter of correcting the bad behavior, "that is incorrect and this is the consequence for a bad decision". Punishment is a matter of getting them back for it, "you did this and I'm gonna get you for it!" By making that simple distinction the energy and intent of your approach will be completely different and feel more right to your dog. You must reward as well. That can be as simple as feeling proud that he did the right thing. They feel your every inner feeling. They don't speak English, but they do have a language. It's energy and body language. They feel that you are proud and happy with them.
It sounds like you have more of a claiming problem than a house breaking problem. Dogs pee on things to claim them (they have other methods as well). It's like putting their name on it. If he's going to the door and other "house broke" behaviors and the vet says he's tip top, you are heading in the right direction with thoughts of being second to him in status. On the other hand, if he's not getting any real attention except when he's been bad, he could be acting out because even harsh attention is better than no attention for him.
Don't feel bad about using the e-collar or giving all the bad corrections. Dogs live in the moment and when you change and let the past go they will let it go. One of the most wonderful things I have learned from dogs in all my years of working with them is to live in the moment. Learn from the past, don't hold on to it. Prepare for the future, don't sweat it. 
The e-collars are wonderful tools when used correctly. Most tools are like that. I can play fetch with my dog using a stick, or I can hit him with the stick. The sticks not bad, I am.
Seek out the help of a trainer in your area and find one that you feel comfortable with. Here's a link to an article I wrote about choosing the right trainer. http://www2.nbc13.com/vtm/news/local/article/tips_for_picking_a_local_pet_trainer/90099/
I hope this helps. Don't feel bad and be patient and confident. Dealing with these sorts of things is a process not an event.


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I also agree with Zim.. and also recommend clicker training. Just google it, there is TONS of info out there.. it's very very easy and rewarding and fun!


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

when trainers support the idea of alpha it usually means one of two things...

they go old school and arent balanced.

or 

they mean exactly the same thing i do except with different connotations. 

alpha is a very subjective and fishy term. it conveys nothing specific. to most lay people it conjures up the dog whisperer....and personally...yuck its also scientifically unsound from everything ive seen

Jamie dont let what is likely to happen to this thread get to you. this argument has been beaten to death and beyond on this forum so im not saying a thing more about it except

use your own words..do your research and use common sense.


----------



## DogWiseUSA (Feb 16, 2010)

Thank you for the warm welcome to the forums. Since I am new to the forums, but certainly not the world of dogs, I appreciate being insulted and having insinuations thrown my way right off the bat.
I have been working with dogs for nearly 20 years and would be considered a "balanced trainer." By keeping myself open to all methods and tools, I don't limit myself and I am more able to adapt to the needs of the dogs and their owners. I didn't offer any under the rug insults about you opinion, regardless of what I thought of it. As for "alpha" or "top dog", generally any trainer who doesn't understand the concept doesn't understand the true nature of dogs as a pure and beautiful creature. Dogs in nature follow a leader. They are a "pack oriented species, like us. We have family and friends(pack) and bosses, etc(pack leader). I work with feral rescue dogs and when the group up they follow a hierarchy. It's the same with wild dogs and wolves. It's a simple natural order of their lives and to deny it denies a part of who they are. Now does that mean that we should bully our dogs into submission? Of course not. The best way to think of it is having a boss at work. Are some bosses jerks? Sure, but the best bosses don't bully they lead. That's the concept of "pack leader."
Also, by closing off and degrading any other school of thought we don't do dog owners any favors. We make the best decisions when we know all the info that is out there. By simply offering her some other insight into what's going on she is now better equipped to resolve her issues.
At one point you stated that you didn't want to tell her she was abusing her dog. "ok. first thing is this disclaimer: i am not trying to say you are a bad person or that you are abusing your dog... but." Ya kinda did in a very under the rug sorta way. That doesn't help anything and it's a bit insulting. Is she using the tools at hand correctly? Doesn't sound like it, but that doesn't mean we should scare her or make her feel as though she's abusing or damaging her dog. E-collars, when used correctly are quite effective. Just like a stick, I can play fetch and have fun or I can hit my dog with it. Is that the sticks fault or the user? 

All that said, I was not trying to contradict you and agreed with several of your points. I merely offered a different view of the situation.


----------



## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I dont think she was trying to be insulting. Thing is.. This is the internet. I would never recommend shock training to someone that I have never set eyes on. Some people take things way out of context and dont know how to handle their anger. Therefore, Taking it out on the transmitter and the dog. Training is nutrition for the trainers and dog. But can be like rock candy when put in the wrong hands.


I DO think she needs to be afraid to use it. Unless she gets some hands on instruction on how to use it properly. Again, In the wrong hands can spell disaster for her dog.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> oh dear....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


X10! ... have you thought that his negative behaviors are anxiety related issue because of that shock collar and all the corrections? Why are you using that anyway? you need to focus on rewardig the positive and managing the negative so it doesn't happen. Dogs have just as many behavioral issues from anxiety as they do just willfulness. Your husband just left for training, your dog might be acting out because he senses the difference in his pack and it is causing him stress. Do you really wanna punish him for that? You dog isn't being spiteful of you... he doesn't know how to do that. You can't apply human emotions and motivations to a dog. Only humans are cunning enough to be that cruel. 

Back to basics. This dog has NO trust for you and your leadership abilities in his eyes is worthless. You need to re-establish trust and a working relationship. Brush up on obedience skills, take him for walks, read the training threads... You have a lot of work ahead of you if you want this relationship to work.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

repeat post, NM


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

I think you are both saying about the same thing. Dogs need a consistent and structured leader. It is undoubtedly healthier for their mental stability to know that someone is in charge and that there are clear cut rules/boundaries. Unfortunately, the terms "pack leader" and "alpha" conjure up images of scruff shakes and alpha rolls instead of consistent and benevolent leadership. 

The problem with telling people that they are not being a "pack leader" is that people don't understand HOW to be pack leader. So often in our society discipline is equated with punishment, and that's the problem. Discipline is NOT punishment and people don't know how to set rules without using punishment, since that's the way we are taught rules in our own lives.

To the original poster, you really need to order Patricia McConnell's "How to Be Leader of the Pack" booklet. It's a little guide of 15 pages, roughly $4 on amazon. It teaches you all of the basics on how to be a kind "alpha" or "pack leader" without ever needing to use any harsh punishment. It doesn't sound like you need to use the shock collar for any of your problems. Clearly the dog is starting to become fearful, since he is running to his crate. He's not punishing himself for doing something bad, he's scared of getting punished by you. It's that simple.

Learn to claim objects as your own by using the body block. You need to institute a no couch rule and prevent any of his attempts by using the body block to keep him off. Please do not yell, yelling only teaches the dog that you are unstable. Alpha dogs do not yell at one another. They calmly and confidently walk up and claim what they want. 

Zim is right, your dog has a house training problem. It's not him trying to be rebellious or to challenge your status, he's simply is not housebroken. If you cannot keep your eye on him or if he wanders into a different room, tether him to you so that you can catch in the act and bring him outside.


----------



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

JamieCM said:


> that's what I've been terrified of, that I'm being TOO hard on him. and it hurts me to know those fears are justified.
> And I also understand that he doesn't understand what I'm saying, but that he does recognize tone.
> i DO praise him whenever he listens to me... happy talk, scratching his head, treats. But it doesn't stop him from doing it again 3 seconds later. (the behaviors of focus are like I said, jumping on the couch, and also standing up and putting his paws and nose on the kitchen counters/table) I don't know how else to positively reinforce something like not jumping up at the counters except for praising him for stopping.
> And I'm careful to only scold him when I catch him in the act. If there's any delay, I don't do anything but try to pay more attention and catch it next time.
> ...


Your vet is not a behaviorist and can only offer vague generalized behavioral assessments based on what YOU tell him not on what he observes. You need to employ a behaviorist if you really want to properly address the issue. As far as the counter and couch go it may be time to apply a bit of aversive therapy. A scat mat is a good gentler enforcer of the fact he is not suppose to be in those things. I use a clear plastic runner that I get at the dollar store with the little nubby teeth in the back, flip it teeth side up on the sofa and it even kept my 130 lb dane offa the couch. On the other hand it won't stop my englsh shepherd Luna at all... I have also had client's cut 4-5 inch wide strips of it and tape it to the bullnose edge of their counters to help stop counter surfing. It gives you those extra pair of eyes you need to correct the behavior (because the dog's action causes the negative reaction (getting a little prick in this case) and the dog thinks "hm... don't like that, maybe we won't do that again" (it helps break the cycle of counter surfing being self rewarding) the dog can't hold hostility towards you for correcting it and provides you the opportunity not to scold but to redirect to the positive (a toy or chew bone). After about a week or 2 of the aversive method being employed the behavior is usually broken, but doesn't affect the bond between dog and handler IF employed properly.

As far as this being "your husband's job" I'm sorry but I'm going to have to call BS on this one. Getting a dog is a FAMILY commitment. IF your husband is military you KNOW that he may be moved or seperated from the family at some point so you would want to make certain that the dog understood you as well. It takes 10-15 minutes twice a day for about 2-3 weeks, to establish a good working relationship with your dog. Good luck.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

digits mama said:


> I dont think she was trying to be insulting. Thing is.. This is the internet. I would never recommend shock training to someone that I have never set eyes on. Some people take things way out of context and dont know how to handle their anger. Therefore, Taking it out on the transmitter and the dog. Training is nutrition for the trainers and dog. But can be like rock candy when put in the wrong hands.
> 
> 
> I DO think she needs to be afraid to use it. Unless she gets some hands on instruction on how to use it properly. Again, In the wrong hands can spell disaster for her dog.



this^^^

plus the fact that my last comment was not directed at anyone in particular except to explain to the op that usually when someone pops up on this forum talking shock collars and "alpha" as everyday good training things...

the forum tends to explode. things get ugly and the mud has a tendancy to fly...and for her not to get upset if such a thing were to happen. because it would have nothing to do with her.

i never said a word about YOU dogwise. i never directed any words to you, at you or regarding you.

the fact that you chose to take offence..is not my problem.


----------



## crittermom (Jan 14, 2010)

I was a vet tech for two years, and we worked very closely with a trainer that dealt with very difficult cases. The technique that he used to "punish" dogs for bad behavior was a "bonker". This was a towel, rolled up and tied up into a roll. The idea is, when your dog does an unwanted behavior (jumping on the couch) you say no and "bonk" them with it (usually on the head). If you try this to yourself, you will realize that it does not hurt in the slightest. When they jump down, then give them lots of praise and a treat. For most dogs, it startles them, but doesnt' scare them or hurt them. Also, if your dog sits down next to the couch, make sure to praise and treat them. The bonker is not to be abused, but is a much better option than a shock (in my opinion). It is best to stop the behavior before it happens (bonk they dog as it is jumping up). Also, once they learn to respect the bonker, you can usually set it someplace as a barrier (set it on the couch to keep them off, or in front of a door to keep them from passing). The key is to say 'NO' or "off" or whatnot ONE time before the bonk. Then just continue as if nothing happened. Also, if you are across the room, you can toss the bonker at the dog so as to correct the behavior even if you are not right there. I'm not saying that thsi is or is not the best method for your dog, but the trainer we worked with saw AMAZING results with it. Just remember to stay calm and collected all the time, and never start acting scary with it. Whatever you do, give your dog TONS of praise when he does the right thing. Good luck!


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

DogWiseUSA said:


> Thank you for the warm welcome to the forums. Since I am new to the forums, but certainly not the world of dogs, I appreciate being insulted and having insinuations thrown my way right off the bat.
> I have been working with dogs for nearly 20 years and would be considered a "balanced trainer." By keeping myself open to all methods and tools, I don't limit myself and I am more able to adapt to the needs of the dogs and their owners. I didn't offer any under the rug insults about you opinion, regardless of what I thought of it. As for "alpha" or "top dog", generally any trainer who doesn't understand the concept doesn't understand the true nature of dogs as a pure and beautiful creature. Dogs in nature follow a leader. They are a "pack oriented species, like us. We have family and friends(pack) and bosses, etc(pack leader). I work with feral rescue dogs and when the group up they follow a hierarchy. It's the same with wild dogs and wolves. It's a simple natural order of their lives and to deny it denies a part of who they are. Now does that mean that we should bully our dogs into submission? Of course not. The best way to think of it is having a boss at work. Are some bosses jerks? Sure, but the best bosses don't bully they lead. That's the concept of "pack leader."
> Also, by closing off and degrading any other school of thought we don't do dog owners any favors. We make the best decisions when we know all the info that is out there. By simply offering her some other insight into what's going on she is now better equipped to resolve her issues.
> At one point you stated that you didn't want to tell her she was abusing her dog. "ok. first thing is this disclaimer: i am not trying to say you are a bad person or that you are abusing your dog... but." Ya kinda did in a very under the rug sorta way. That doesn't help anything and it's a bit insulting. Is she using the tools at hand correctly? Doesn't sound like it, but that doesn't mean we should scare her or make her feel as though she's abusing or damaging her dog. E-collars, when used correctly are quite effective. Just like a stick, I can play fetch and have fun or I can hit my dog with it. Is that the sticks fault or the user?
> ...


She wasn't being insulting at all, as far as I'm concerned, just showing her opinion and how you mislead information slightly. Okay, dogs follow a heirarchy, but everyone who thinks they have to be the dominant owner does so in the wrong way because they get the wrong information on this aspect, and these thoughts need to be abolished. It's muche easier to tell a person that it doesn't matter and to forget about it all than explain in detail how dogs work.

And no offense to the OP, but she had thoughts that what she was doing was wrong, and she shouldn't be offended when we confirm that she is, in a subtle way, abusing her dog and the tools she's using on her. Zim and I both stated that we're glad she's realized something is wrong and that coming here to get advice to fix it is great. A lot of people don't realize what they're doing is wrong or just how bad something is or doesn't work until you put it quite bluntly.


----------



## DogWiseUSA (Feb 16, 2010)

Thanks for setting me straight


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

DogWiseUSA said:


> Thanks for setting me straight


No problem. 

Welcome to the forum, by the way! 
Hope you enjoy your stay.


----------



## DogWiseUSA (Feb 16, 2010)

lol! thanks


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

These methods work with all dogs:

Reward what you want
Prevent or interrupt what you don't want

MANAGEMENT is very important, and often is understated when discussing dealing with dog issues, in particular house training issues.

I do not believe that dogs are capable of the thought process necessary for vindictive or rebellious actions.

Yes, you can get compliance with dogs, usually more quickly, with punishement, correction, and intimidation.

I choose to use aversive methods as little as possible and positive methods as much as possible to modify the behavior of dogs I interact with.

I believe that much of your issue with the beagle is due to the punishment. If you came to me for advice, I would encourage you to prevent his access to the sofa area, confine him to prevent house soiling, to reward him as handsomely and as much as possible for outdoor elimination. I would set him up a very cushy comfortable area of his own, and reward him as much as possible for being near, or on his own bed.

I would leave a drag line on him in the house when I was with him so I could remove him from the couch if necessary and then take him to his bed and reward him.


----------

