# Has anyone ever spanked their dog?



## Boxer & Co.

When I was little my parents would spank our dogs if they did something to teach them. I have recently gotten a puppy and have started reading alot of training books. Now the books say that spanking does not work but my old dogs seemed to learn just fine with spankings. I have not tried this approach with my puppy because I think I can train without spanking. I do spank my children to correct them, and I kind of feel bad that they get spankings and the dog doesn't. Thats just me though. Dogs are not smart like people are and my children know that I spank out of love not anger. I don't think a dog can understand that. My question is .... I was wondering if anyone else has spanked their dog before and how they felt about it? I'm am not trying to get a debate going here, I just want to see what others are doing for their training. Thank you.


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## LoveLilly

I read alot about that too & had parents who would "spank" not hurt, just startle the dog....but he was a big dog which I think makes a difference. I believe their dog learned that if he chewed on a shoe he would get the undesireable outcome of a spank on the butt. I don't think it hurt him, I believe it only was not as pleasant as a belly rub. Now I have at little 6 pound Papillon and I read about how fragile they are. In the beginning when she would make me angry when I knew she knew better I would yell....and it would scare the heck out of her I learned very quickly, so I thought spanking would tramatize her so I never did it. I also stopped yelling to discipline very quickly. Instead, when she did good I made it very very known how happy I was, she she did bad I just looked disappointed or would say "bad" in a low unhappy tone. All in all, I believe my 2nd approach has by far worked very well. She knows when I am happy or unpleased just by simple body language. I believe now when you spank it can in many cases back fire and make the dog scared of you & not understand that it was tied to the undesireable behavior.


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## Curbside Prophet

The question that should be asked is, what does a dog learn from spanking? If you're trying to teach avoidance, or fear, spankings are very effective. Hoewever, effective communication and a cooperative relationship with our dogs depends on learning what is appropriate. If a correction does not begin and end with an appropriate behavior and a positve experience, the correction is futile IMO. So, no I haven't spanked Elsa, although there have been many times when my humanism felt the urge to do so...but at those times I had to walk away and rethink my goal. If I were of the ilk that aversives were acceptable, I probably would have spanked her. Thank goodness I've learned better.


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## RonE

I spanked my lab after he dug up a rose bush we had just nursed back to health. It was unnecessary, unproductive and totally uncalled for. That was about six years ago and I still regret it.

That was a dog that would sulk for four hours if you spoke sternly. There was no reason to spank him and I did it because I was angry. That's the worst possible reason to do anything.


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## britishbandit

I don't spank my dogs, my parents used to spank our old cocker spaniel, and it just made him cower away in fear whenever a hand was raised near him, even if it was just someone turning on the tv, and ran to hide whenever there was yelling, even if it wasn't directed towards him.

It's much more effective to teach your dog discipline, rather than spank him. And no, they aren't the same thing. Discipline is teaching respect and manners, and trust me, I'd have no respect at all for someone whacking me around whenever they felt the need to do so.


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## 3212

I agree. I think it works a lot like it does with children. When we were little we got spanked (not hard) and my parents stopped because (especially as we were getting older) it would only make us angry and we didn't learn anything from it. My sister was the worst! She'd just turn to my mom and say things like "That didn't even hurt! Go ahead and hit I'm not sorry!" And IMO dogs are the same way. They either cower in fear and become very fearful or they get angry and may end up becoming more aggressive...obviously depending on the dog and the kind of 'spanking' that you do. 

I have spanked Bridgette before but as with the others I have ALWAYS regretted it. I didn't hit her hard by any means, but it was done in anger and frustration and it doesn't teach them anything IMO.


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## Cheetah

I grew up with my family spanking dogs, and so naturally, I thought it was ok until I was about 16 or so, and saw better methods of training. Eevee got spanked for over a year (by my family and by me) before I finally grew up and realized, "Hey, this isn't working..."

I think the damage is done with Eevee, because she still flinches sometimes when I reach to pet her, and she's 7 now. Of course, she was also abused by my family when I wasn't around (kicking her, tying her to tables, etc.) and that doesn't make it any better. >-.-;<


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## briteday

We foster quite a few dogs around here and volunteer at the shelter. I see far too many dogs that cower away from a hand raised to pet them. Most have been hit, spanked. 

There are several other methods of training even the most stubborn dogs. Positive reinforcement is all that is needed for some. Others do well with being diverted away from a bad behavior by dropping a set of keys or a soda can with pennies inside. Just drop the object near them and they are startled by the sound. One of our dogs couldn't stand it if we rolled up a section of the newspaper and slapped our hand with it. He had never been hit with it but disliked our demeanor as we rolled the paper I guess. 

The most important thing we have done with each of our dogs is to take them to obedience classes. Some dogs have required more than one time thru. Even though we know how to train our dogs and what to teach them, the weekly class reinforces the skills and forces us to do the homework. The dog ends up becoming a better household companion much quicker because of the structure of a class over 8-10 weeks.
And lastly, I agree with the statements about fear versus respect. I would much rather have a dog that respects me than fears me.


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## RonE

If I was ever tempted to spank or strike Esther, I'd think about the fact that she could rip my arm off if she wanted to, and I should be grateful that she doesn't want to. (I know. She looks so sweet.)

If she can restrain herself, certainly I can do the same.


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## Alpha

I can totally see not spanking small dogs or dogs from rescues or shelters, when their past is unknown.

My two guys were "spanked", when they were young. To be honest, right now I can't even think of what they were spanked for, but it wasn't often, and it was usually for bad behaviours that they knew darn well were not acceptable. Sneaking behind our backs to chew on something that wasn't allowed, shredding toilet paper etc. IMO, spanking in my repetoire is much different than hitting. Like with horses and crops it's the sound of the slap on the bottom that makes more of a difference than actual pain. So my "spanks" were usually well placed hand slaps that made more of a noise than anything.

It stopped before 6 months. They dont' get spanked now per se, but if they're doing something bad, fighting in the house for example, a small light tap on their haunches is all it takes to get their attention. (Sometimes they get pretty mad at each other and zone out completely, only that physical contact brings them back to earth! LOL)


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## cshellenberger

If a dog does something wrong, you should spank the one responsible, YOU!!!!


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## Boxer & Co.

RonE said:


> If I was ever tempted to spank or strike Esther, I'd think about the fact that she could rip my arm off if she wanted to, and I should be grateful that she doesn't want to. (I know. She looks so sweet.)
> 
> If she can restrain herself, certainly I can do the same.


oh yeah, thats exactly how I feel. My puppy is only 8 weeks old. I don't want her to return the spanking when she gets full grown. We bought her to protect our family while my husband is at work. (I'm a stay at home mom)I needed to feel more secure since we moved to a bigger city than I grew up in. I figure if she is gonna protect us then I should protect her.


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## Alpha

In my personal opinion, I'm glad that I did use physical contact to get their attention, (ANY type of physical contact in some situations will work 100% better than verbal. Ex) Calling a dog that's totally into that other dogs pee on the hydrant is NOT going to work. If you went up and tapped them on the behind you automatically PULL them out of that mind state back into "reality") instead of spraying my dogs in the eyes with hot sauce, crating them for 8 hours a day, throwing bags of change to scare them etc.

The whole idea behind our "spanking", which isn't really what it sounds like. (Hauling off and whacking the dog in the arse) can be explained the best, as my trainer does.

If your husband/wife, is downstairs really into a book their reading, and you yell down from upstairs, "Honey did you get the mail?", and they don't respond. What do you do? Perhaps yell louder, and louder until you get angry.

When if you just would've walked down the stairs and tapped her on the shoulder you could've got her attention IMMEDIATELY and you save yourself the high blood pressure from screaming down the stairs.

When I "spanked" usually it scared my guys, because they were SO into what they were doing. Not because it hurt, not even neccessarily sometimes because they were busted. 

Kind of a like a teenaged boy who gets busted reading some x-rated materials. Being busted is the afterthought immediately, but at first perhaps it's just a "spook" at someone popping out of nowhere. 

Some may not agree with using physical contact to get your dog's complete and full attention, but IMO, it's better than some of the other tactics out there that are used as aversives for some of the "bad" household behaviours dog do.


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## Laurelin

I don't believe in spanking dogs at all, I don't think it gets anything done. I have spanked Nikki before when I was a kid and trying to 'teach' her and I can tell you it did no good and I wish now I hadn't done it.


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## nrhareiner

I do spank my animals if you want to call it that. How I do it depends on the animal. However I have a 3 second rule. If you are going to disapline an animal you do it with in 3 seconds of them doing what they are doing and it only last 3 seconds. Beleive me it does work.

Heidi



cshellenberger said:


> If a dog does something wrong, you should spank the one responsible, YOU!!!!


By saying this you are saying your dog does nothing wrong and that is just not posible. To truely train an animal they must first do something wrong so you can correct them and put them back where they should be. If you gaurd the animal so tightly that it never makes a mistake then it will never truely learn and then when you are not there to guard it and keep if from making that mistake the animal will not know what to do. Then you will really have a problem.

Heidi


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## Doberdude

nrhareiner said:


> I do spank my animals if you want to call it that. How I do it depends on the animal. However I have a 3 second rule. If you are going to disapline an animal you do it with in 3 seconds of them doing what they are doing and it only last 3 seconds. Beleive me it does work.
> 
> Heidi
> 
> 
> 
> By saying this you are saying your dog does nothing wrong and that is just not posible. To truely train an animal they must first do something wrong so you can correct them and put them back where they should be. If you gaurd the animal so tightly that it never makes a mistake then it will never truely learn and then when you are not there to guard it and keep if from making that mistake the animal will not know what to do. Then you will really have a problem.
> 
> Heidi


Amen to that. I only spank my dog rarely and has to be something really bad, just a little smack on the bottom.


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## Boxer & Co.

Alpha said:


> In my personal opinion, I'm glad that I did use physical contact to get their attention, (ANY type of physical contact in some situations will work 100% better than verbal. Ex) Calling a dog that's totally into that other dogs pee on the hydrant is NOT going to work. If you went up and tapped them on the behind you automatically PULL them out of that mind state back into "reality") instead of spraying my dogs in the eyes with hot sauce, crating them for 8 hours a day, throwing bags of change to scare them etc.
> 
> The whole idea behind our "spanking", which isn't really what it sounds like. (Hauling off and whacking the dog in the arse) can be explained the best, as my trainer does.
> 
> If your husband/wife, is downstairs really into a book their reading, and you yell down from upstairs, "Honey did you get the mail?", and they don't respond. What do you do? Perhaps yell louder, and louder until you get angry.
> 
> When if you just would've walked down the stairs and tapped her on the shoulder you could've got her attention IMMEDIATELY and you save yourself the high blood pressure from screaming down the stairs.
> 
> When I "spanked" usually it scared my guys, because they were SO into what they were doing. Not because it hurt, not even neccessarily sometimes because they were busted.
> 
> Kind of a like a teenaged boy who gets busted reading some x-rated materials. Being busted is the afterthought immediately, but at first perhaps it's just a "spook" at someone popping out of nowhere.
> 
> Some may not agree with using physical contact to get your dog's complete and full attention, but IMO, it's better than some of the other tactics out there that are used as aversives for some of the "bad" household behaviours dog do.


Ok, I definately see your point. I'm trying to decide whether not to spank my dog. The reason is because I spanked her yesterday morning. I spanked her out of anger and I shouldn't have. I felt so bad; that is why I wrote this post. I agree with what Ron E said too. I guess I'm in the middle of the road still. Now when my husband is home and he calls her to come inside and she runs, he spanks. And then again she is already starting to cower to him.
The puppy is only 8 weeks old and we both have never trained a puppy before. With our children being so young and the fact she is gonna be big we want to teach her as quickly as possible it is not ok to jump and bite them.
Both of you made good points and I am going to consider spanking to train again. Last night I had pretty much made up my mind, but with what you said I'm gonna have to rethink it. Thanks for all of your advice. Both of you seem very good with your dogs, even with the diff. training methods.


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## Curbside Prophet

I would not compare a dog's ability to reason with that of children. Unless the dog is committing a heinous crime, aversives are not needed. Can you explain a situation when spanking may be required? I apologize if I missed an example in a previous post.


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## chucky

when you angry at the dog, and you spank it, the spank itself doesn't teach them much, it feels your negative energy come out, your state of mind, is what dogs feels, and acts according. if my dog does something wrong, i don't have to spank it to relay a message. i just say the key word, in a certan tone of voice(negative energy, not felt by humans, but very well felt by dogs), and he knows he did wrong, he folds his ears, tail, all 2 inches of it, goes down, and he runs on his bed, and wouldn't leave it, untill he feels my positive energy, or i call him.
humans know thet spanking is punishment, dogs don't, it's not different to them from playing rough, but they feel us, the way we cant. using human approach to a dog, is a very big mistake.


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## Alpha

Definitely spanking out of anger is not a good idea. Your most probably going to use WAY too much force, and the anger is definitely going to be seen by your dog, when leaders are calm and confident. Acting out outrageously, and uncontrolably violent is NOT the actions of a leader.

I'm going to stop using the word spank too, but it implies that you are forcefully disciplining your dog, when my posts are not really about that.

They're about using physical contact to gain your dogs attention, fully.

Ex)
Pepper is chewing on the furniture. You walk up behind her and hand tap her on the meaty part of the haunches. (As in a little wrist action, not a wind up with the whole arm) As soon as she looks back at you, "WRONG!" or "NO!", I particularly use the word "EHT!" (I find "EHT!" is a loud, scary sharp sound that gains their attention immediately) than redirect. "Here Pepper, chew on your bone/toy etc".

Because "Pepper" was so into chewing on the furniture, the tap on her arse is probably going to startle her. She knows she was busted. Than immediately redirect to something that is acceptable to chew on.

Now I have fallen into the trap of sometimes getting super angry and yelling, but being calm and firm is the way to get best results. Screaming your head off only frightens the dog more, so much so, that it forgets what it's getting in trouble for.

Gaining their FULL attention immediately, quickly and WHILE THEY ARE COMMITTING THE BAD BEHAVIOUR, using words that they know mean UNACCEPTABLE behaviour, than redirecting to what they know IS ACCEPTABLE are the steps.

As it was posted above, dogs work in nanoseconds. Disciplining even 30 seconds after the "crime" is committed is much too late. WHILE THEY ARE COMMITTING THE ACT, or seconds after is your only chance at actually sending them the message about what they did was wrong.

My guys as I mentioned before don't really get that physical contact anymore, unless they are fighting intensely. (Not anything like drawing blood, but screeching you know how they do).

Other than that, they have already made the relation between that startling of the wrist slap and the use of the word "EHT!". Much like a dog makes the relation between a command word like "SIT" with your chosen method for luring.

Dogs learn from physical corrections. Just as a mother nips her pups if they are suckling too hard, or a littermate nips at another for biting too hard.

It's knowing how and when to administer those corrections and the reward that makes it difficult.

It's all too often that people "spank" out of anger, too late and don't reward. THAT'S where issues arise.

If you use a physical correction combined with some type of reward as well as keeping yourself calm and collected, physical corrections can accomplish the goal without behavioural issues arising.


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## siberian husky lover12

Well, all do is spank my dogs with newspaper. It scares them so they do not want to do whatever they did the next time. I trained my puppy in just 1.5 weeks and she has never gone on the floor scince.


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## Curbside Prophet

siberian husky lover12 said:


> Well, all do is spank my dogs with newspaper. It scares them so they do not want to do whatever they did the next time. I trained my puppy in just 1.5 weeks and she has never gone on the floor scince.


I seriously doubt it had anything to do with you striking her. I would credit the housetraining to other tactics, and not striking them with newspaper. No modern dog trainer would strike a dog in house training. None.


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## cshellenberger

nrhareiner said:


> I do spank my animals if you want to call it that. How I do it depends on the animal. However I have a 3 second rule. If you are going to disapline an animal you do it with in 3 seconds of them doing what they are doing and it only last 3 seconds. Beleive me it does work.
> 
> Heidi
> 
> 
> 
> By saying this you are saying your dog does nothing wrong and that is just not posible. To truely train an animal they must first do something wrong so you can correct them and put them back where they should be. If you gaurd the animal so tightly that it never makes a mistake then it will never truely learn and then when you are not there to guard it and keep if from making that mistake the animal will not know what to do. Then you will really have a problem.
> 
> Heidi



No, what I'm saying is if the dog has done something wrong, it's the owners training that has failed. If a dog has an accident on the floor, it is the owners fault for not watching it and being sure it doesn't. My dogs do wrong things, it's MY fault usually because I've been inattentive. Of course, you can only expect the BEST trained dog to comply 92% of the time.

The statement was meant as a joke BTW, I guess some just didn't get it.


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## lovemygreys

Have I spanked my dogs?? No. I have I popped them on the hiney? Yep. And it works every time. It's not to hurt the dog, but to surprise/correct them. I've "cured" some bathroom dumpster divers and some bowl jumpers at feeding time that way.

I think Alpha summed it up quite nicely in post #20.

Dogs respond and learn from postive/negative punishment as well as positive/negative reinforcement. The key is knowing which method is appropriate in extinguishing/shaping different behaviors.


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## Alpha

> The key is knowing which method is appropriate in extinguishing/shaping different behaviors.


That's perfect! 

It relates to Curbsides mention of using physical punishment for housebreaking and Carla's mention of; accidents in the house usually meaning the pup wasn't supervised or taken out enough.

Physical corrections are not for every dog, and not for every circumstance.

I think physical corrections in general and whether they can be positive/negative, also has a LOT to do with your relationships with your dogs. If you have a strong bond and there's no question who's boss. For someone who has done no training, no bonding, no "leadership" excercises, a tap on the hiney may mean a nip in the hand. Just as the alpha of the pack would do to a dog lower in the pecking order if it tried to correct him.


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## Curbside Prophet

lovemygreys said:


> Dogs respond and learn from postive/negative punishment as well as positive/negative reinforcement. The key is knowing which method is appropriate in extinguishing/shaping different behaviors.


And Karen Pryor would further say "punishers, like reinforcers, are defined by the receiver, not the giver." Unfortunately, as Alpha pointed out, some people define punishment on their own without knowing what punishment is. So they roll up a news paper and smack their dog for peeing on the carpet..._but Skinner told me to do it_. Fine, blame him, but the dog still has to pee, right? So this same Skinner dude also theorized that if you give a positive stimulus that follows an event it will increase the chance of this event reoccurring...hence, give the dog praise for peeing outside. Whacking a dog with a newspaper is an aversion, a positive punishment (positive as in adding an aversive). A positive punishment can also be a simple NO!. But like Karen says, the punishment is defined by the dog, and not by us. This is how definite talking about punishment can be. However, physical punishment like spanking, where a dog cowers in fear, has no place in dog training unless it's for the most heinous crimes, where it would be a last resort.



Alpha said:


> I think physical corrections in general and whether they can be positive/negative, also has a LOT to do with your relationships with your dogs.


BTW, there's no such thing as a negative punishment that's a physical correction if we're speaking in psychological terms. Maybe imagined, but none real.  I'm just pulling your leg.


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## Alpha

I've heard the term negative punishment, being defined as: Taking something AWAY that counts as a punishment, simply put something like attention. Ignoring a dog that's jumping would be negative punishment.

It does not count as reinforcing, because your not reinforcing the behaviour, but rather negative (taking something away) punishment (because the dog WANTS attention)

Curbside makes a good point. Correcting the dog for something they HAVE to do is pretty confusing to a dog. We may *think* that they know they are getting corrected for peeing on your carpet but the truth be told, they may have NO idea!

Hence why combining the punishment with reward is so effective. 

With everything our dogs do new, or sometimes even everyday things, you have to remember that we have to clearly state in terms they understand what is acceptable and what is not.

Edit: My bad Curbside, I see now that you quoted what my post what you were getting at. To clarify: I meant, a negative/positive OUTCOME, in our eyes at least  It could very well be considered a negative that Lassie can't chew on the yummy couch anymore! ROFL


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## RonE

Puzzling human behavior that we see all the time: Dog runs away. Human screams at dog to come back. Dog finally comes back and human spanks the dog for running away.

And yet, they still love us. It's a wonderment.


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## nrhareiner

First I would never spank an 8 week old puppy. They have no idea what is going on or what they have done wrong. Disapline when used must be age apropriat. I do not disapline my pups the same way I do my older dogs. Also they have no refurence point to know what is correct and what is wrong.

Also and this is very important. NEVER disapline a dog who does not come. Reason being is that you have not cought him and disaplined him for not coming to you, in his mind he has been disaplined for coming. So in his mind every time you catch him he is getting disaplined if you spank him for not coming. In his mind he is not being disaplined for not comming. Does that make sence? Boy I hope that makes sence. I have reread it and I am not sure my self. I just know what I want to say hope it comes accost that way.

Also each dog is differnt. I would not disapline my salukie the same way I disapline my old Wolf cross dog. They have differnt personalities. 

Here is an example of what happened not too long ago. My Corgi pup was doing really well about going out to go to the bathroom ( she was at the time about 10 weeks old) Then for some reason she started just going in the house. I would grab her tell her no and put her out. This keep up for several days. She knew she was doing wrong however for what ever reason she did not care it was just easyer to go in the house. So finally I cought her in the ack and spanked her told her no and put her out. Took a few times but to date she has not had anouther accident in the hourse. Did her behavior change b/c I spanked her? Who knows. However she found out there was consiquences to her actions. 

Big thing is that no matter what you do you need to be consistant in it. 

Heidi


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## Alpha

> First I would never spank an 8 week old puppy. They have no idea what is going on or what they have done wrong.


Just to debate, then what do you say of mothers/littermates disciplining each other? 

If they don't understand what they've done wrong, how come some of the first lessons in a dogs life about bite inhibition come before those first 8 weeks of life from littermates?

I also would probably not even do my wrist tap on a puppy, but just to throw it out there, that puppies mere weeks of age, are disciplined PHYSICALLY by their mother and littermates.


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## Curbside Prophet

RonE said:


> And yet, they still love us. It's a wonderment.


It's in how dogs departed from wolves to form a symbiotic relationship. And yes I did say it's how dogs departed from wolves. I blame dogs for adapting to us first before we started to meddle with them. But that's a whole other topic.


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## RonE

siberian husky lover12 said:


> Well, all do is spank my dogs with newspaper.


Well that helps explain the appalling illiteracy rate among canines.


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## nrhareiner

Thing about a littermate or mother disaplining a pup is a bit differnt then spanking a pup. Now if the 8 week old pup statted using my finger as a chew toy I would tap them on the nose very very lightly and say no and put a bone in their mouth.

If you really watch the way one dog disapline anouther they really sound like they are killing the pup however if you look closely their mouths never touch the pup. That is if the older dog is socially exceptable. One of my older dogs just has problems with other dogs in his space. When he first went after one of the pups he was very agreesive and I had to disapline him and made him understand that at that leval it was not correct and I was not going to tolerate it. He lerned that if he disaplined the pups with a growl and short snap and did not acctually bit down on the pup he got the same results and I did not get after him. 

One thing I have found really works when working with and training an animal is how you approch the animal and your body languade. Keeping in mind they are pack animals and take your place as alfa member of the pack really does work.

Fun to find new ways to get an old dog to do new tricks.

Heidi



RonE said:


> Well that helps explain the appalling illiteracy rate among canines.


Hay my dogs resemble that remark. Acturlly evey one knows exactly what to do with the Toledo Blade.

Heidi


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## Jaylie

I will, on only special occasions when she has done something REALLY bad, "Spank" Jaylie. NEVER EVER EVER EEEEEEVVVVVVVEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRR come DOWN on a dog. This will teach him to shy away and be afraid of you. When you need to get a point through to your dog, have it in a stand, and hit UP onto the chest of the dog.


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## lovemygreys

Curbside Prophet said:


> And Karen Pryor would further say "punishers, like reinforcers, are defined by the receiver, not the giver." Unfortunately, as Alpha pointed out, some people define punishment on their own without knowing what punishment is. So they roll up a news paper and smack their dog for peeing on the carpet..._but Skinner told me to do it_. Fine, blame him, but the dog still has to pee, right? So this same Skinner dude also theorized that if you give a positive stimulus that follows an event it will increase the chance of this event reoccurring...hence, give the dog praise for peeing outside. Whacking a dog with a newspaper is an aversion, a positive punishment (positive as in adding an aversive). A positive punishment can also be a simple NO!. But like Karen says, the punishment is defined by the dog, and not by us. This is how definite talking about punishment can be. However, physical punishment like spanking, where a dog cowers in fear, has no place in dog training unless it's for the most heinous crimes, where it would be a last resort.


Of course the reinforcer/punisher is "defined" by the receiver  Show me where I said that it wasn't. Nowhere in my post did I advocate using an extreme physical correction....certainly not anything that would make a dog cower in fear.



> BTW, there's no such thing as a negative punishment that's a physical correction if we're speaking in psychological terms. Maybe imagined, but none real.  I'm just pulling your leg.


Negative punishment is a well defined within the Theory of Operant Conditioning - decreasing the likelihood of a behavior occuring in the future by removing a positive stimulus. Used incorrectly, any type of punishment can certainly create some unintended results (though so can a reinforcer  ).

A physical correction would be a positive punisher.



Jaylie said:


> When you need to get a point through to your dog, have it in a stand, and hit UP onto the chest of the dog.


I'm trying to picture this, and honestly, I just can't. I can't imagine when I would ever want or need to do something like that.


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## Boxer & Co.

ok, ok, ok.........I get it. Your damned if ya do and your damned if you don't.
Here is my problem. My children are becoming scared of our 8 week old puppy. My children do not hurt her in anyway and are never left unattended with her. I am trying to teach the dog to quit being so rough with the kids. No, they do not rough house or play tug a war with her. The puppy jumps on them and nips and chews their hands constantly. My child cannot walk in front of the dog without being knocked down and bit and scratched. I know she can be trained but how? What I've been doing is popping her on the but. No, not hard but I still call it spanking. I spank my kids and I say I spank them. They get spanked harder than the dog. No, I don't abuse my kids. Thats a whole topic I am very strong in my beliefs on and I ain't gettin into it here. So, please don't say anything about the fact that I spank my kids. Anyhow, am I doing wrong by popping her butt when she is doing this to my kids? Before I do I usually say "Ah, Coco, no bite". She doesn't here me. The kids evidently taste good. I repeat again and move closer to her this time. She looks at me but continues with her munching. The kid is crying. Now, that is when I spank her. I pop her on the butt and she leaves the kid alone. For a min. anyway. It seems that gets her attention. I don't know if its going to work though. Any advice would help our family out alot. 
Also, I don't want to sound like all I do all day is punish her. She gets praised, belly rubs, treats, outside playtime where she can eat the mulch out of the flower beds. I am constantly rewarding her for good things she does. I believe she is really smart and learns quick. She is only 8 weeks and basically housetrained already. She goes to the door and whines. She has been doing it for about 3 days now. She has only woke me up once to go potty during the night. She stays in her crate all night and doesn't make a sound. Ok, I'll quit bragging now. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. That was certainly not my intentions. I'm just a little confused on what to do with my situation.


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## Curbside Prophet

lovemygreys said:


> Of course the reinforcer/punisher is "defined" by the receiver  Show me where I said that it wasn't. Nowhere in my post did I advocate using an extreme physical correction....certainly not anything that would make a dog cower in fear.


I attempted to add to your point (positive reinforcement). It was not a suggestion to take away from your point (negative punishment) or claim an adcovacy for extreme physical punishment. I'm confident you know the difference between a touch on the bum for attention versus a rolled up news paper for extreme attention. I'm not so sure about others, and I thought Karen's quote was a good follow up point to your original statement. That's all.


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## Whitney

I don't believe in spanking. The only reason why I USED to spank my first dog was because yes, I was angry. If I am angry at something that my dog did wrong, then I should be spanking myself, really. I feel that my dog does wrong due to my failure to teach him/her right from wrong. I do not have kids yet, and I would love to have kids in the future, and I will also, never spank my children. My mother and father had spanked me, but that didn't really teach me much besides learning how to lie better, or hide the things that I had done wrong better. Punishing ourselves is never the answer. We punish ourselves, and we punish our children and our pets. Why not use positive rewards so that our pets and children WANT to do the right thing, instead of are afraid to do the wrong things? Good topic though.


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## cshellenberger

> Here is my problem. My children are becoming scared of our 8 week old puppy. My children do not hurt her in anyway and are never left unattended with her. I am trying to teach the dog to quit being so rough with the kids.


 Here's the bite inhibition article.

http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm

The key is that EVERYBODY must be consistant and on the same page. You have to remember that an 8 week old pup is like a 10 month old human infant, just starting to learns the rules of it's 'society'. 

BTW, a dog doesn't severely dicipline a pup until the puppy licence runs out (around 4 months old) until then, if hte pup is being obnoxius the older dog will get up and walk away. Now littermates and other pups are a different story, and that is where a pup learns bite inhibition from. Those lessons take place from 6 weeks to 12 weeks old, that's why so many 8 weeks old pups bite and nip. We have to teach what the littermates aren't around to. 

I would also teach the Puppy Zen excercise at the top of the training forum, htis will help to teach the pup "Leave It" then, when bite inhibition is reasonable solid, start the "Rev Up/ Cool Down". All these are life lessons and manners for the dog, as opposed to training 'sit, stay, come' (also neccessary) which are for our convenience and to keep them safe.


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## lovemygreys

Curbside Prophet said:


> I attempted to add to your point (positive reinforcement). It was not a suggestion to take away from your point (negative punishment) or claim an adcovacy for extreme physical punishment. I'm confident you know the difference between a touch on the bum for attention versus a rolled up news paper for extreme attention. I'm not so sure about others, and I thought Karen's quote was a good follow up point to your original statement. That's all.


My apologies! I misread your post....that's what I get for being online when I should be sleeping


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## Alpha

I wouldn't spank for nipping or jumping up.

There are better ways to deal with that issue. The desire to jump and visit is pretty strong, because they are so excited.

*So use that desire to demand good behaviours!*

No attention until they behave politely. My neice and nephew, now 9 and 6, were a little younger when I started having them "train" with our guys.

I had a sit down with them, and explained if the dogs were being "rough" or pushy for attention, to ignore. When they sat down and behaved THAN they could pat them.

We also had mock shows in our dining room where each child took a dog. It helped with the respect side, between child and dog.


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## Curbside Prophet

lovemygreys said:


> My apologies! I misread your post....that's what I get for being online when I should be sleeping


No harm, no foul. Although I'm one who appreciates your contributions to the forum, get some sleep darn it!


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## [email protected]

*hitting*

hitting a dog is ever a good ideal we have come a long ways since the days of hitting why would a dog responded to you if you hit him please I would run the other way or bite you and here lays the problem do not make your dog scared of you you can get the same results if not better by a raise voice of a little growl and no or off please people do not even think of hitting, hands off except for petting. the dog is your pal or family member would you hit them? how is that training them except to be afraid of you- again I cannot stress this enough DO NOT HIT.


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## Jaylie

no no no no no!!! I NEVER spank out of anger. If I AM angry, I make a point NOT to spank, to make sure I don't take my feelings out on the poor pup.


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## anjamaka

My father used to spank zeus, but I never did, I think it just does not work with a dog. Zeus didn't fear him for it though, he loved it, he loves his butt spanked so he used to do stuff on purpose for a spanking. He is really big and really strong and you would have to hit him harder than I ever could just to make it scare him. He thinks it is a reward so now I spank him when he does good things, he just loves it.


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## skunkstripe

I have smacked my dog on the butt to get his attention-not to cause physical pain. And only then when what he was doing was competely unacceptable, namely growling at little kids. We have no little kids in our home so I was at a loss to train him that they were in fact small humans.

But Boxer & Co I think your problems are going to get worse. Biting and nipping are partially related to a puppy teething, and that seems to hit a peak at 12 weeks. So "spanking" is more than likely not going to have the desired effect. Your puppy is nipping at your little kid and is getting rewarded with attention. It would be better to hand you puppy something ice cold to relieve the pain of teething and also teach the puppy that mouthing humans is not rewarding. A better way would be to withhold attention.


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## rizzo

I haven't spanked my dogs, and I don't think I will, especially given their past. They were abused, so I don't want to spark any more fear in them by doing that. I've found more effective ways that work. When they are about to do something wrong, I say "HEY" real loud and firm and they understand to back off and come to me. For these guys, I put them in the kitchen after the do something wrong and put a little gate up. They hate that because their favorite thing is to cuddle up next to me in my cozy bed and gets lots of attention  That works for me, so I'm sticking to it.

As for spanking, I don't think I could ever do it. I do think there are better ways.


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## mscar22

yes, i admit that we have used physical punishment in the past to correct our dogs. thats basically what my stepdad did (he's gone now thankgod)
when i discovered positive training methods (without having to lay a hand on your dog) i began trainging buster, no matter how frustrated i got i just had to remember, if he knew what i was asking him to do, he would be doing it. i'm showing him the wrng way. he's doesn't need to be hit because he is confused. 
Buster reacts a LOT better to positive trainging methods i must say than he ever did to being hit or kicked and he's a much happier dog now that it will never happen again

and yeah, i rough up my dogs a lot, slapping them really fast on eaither cheek, lightly, just enough for a game. or jumping on the ground to wrestle. fair is fair, if i'm gonna through buster on the ground, he's gonna run his teeth all up my arms. not like a bite, doesn't leave marks. just grabs my hand or arm in his mouth and bangs his teeth into me

and yeah, i rough up my dogs a lot, slapping them really fast on eaither cheek, lightly, just enough for a game. or jumping on the ground to wrestle. fair is fair, if i'm gonna through buster on the ground, he's gonna run his teeth all up my arms. not like a bite, doesn't leave marks. just grabs my hand or arm in his mouth and bangs his teeth into me


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## poodleholic

Spanking an 8-wk. old puppy is the equivalent of spanking a human infant. Inappropriate, at best, and it doesn't work. The behavior you describe is normal puppy behavior. Your method of poping her on the butt isn't working because you aren't teaching her anything, except that you're unpredictable, and this could damage your relationship, at the very least. She has no clue as to why you are hitting her! Corrections should never be given when the puppy or dog doesn't know what you expect. It's your job to teach the puppy manners and house rules. Only when the dog knows and understands what you are asking and refuses, does she deserve a reprimand, and hitting a dog is unnecessary. I've never laid a hand on my dogs, nor do I raise my voice. All it takes is a raised eyebrow, or maybe an "EH!" to stop them in their tracks. No matter what they are doing at any given time, they are ever aware of me, and know when they have my approval, and when they do not. It's not that hard to achieve when you have earned their trust and respect as their benevolent leader, provider of all good things (attention, affection, play, food, water, walks, and so on). 

A far more effective method of teaching is to ignore unwanted behavior, redirect to a (known) behavior (i.e., "sit," if the puppy understands sit), and to follow through with positive reinforcement. At 8 wks., your puppy may not fully understand what sit means, but, you can hold a yummy treat just above her head, and the puppy will (usually) sit down. Praise her, give her the treat, and give her a toy to chew instead of mouthing the children. 

When Maddy was a puppy, I controlled her access to the house using baby gates. I taught my grandchildren to cross arms over chest, tucking hands under their arms, and to turn their backs and ignore Maddy when she was a prefectly normal "wildchild" puppy. The moment she sat, or quieted down, THEN she got the attention she wanted, and praise to let her know she was a good girl. If she became wild again, jumping up, mouthing/nipping, the children crossed arms and tucked hands, then left the room, keeping Maddy where she was with baby gates, coming back a few minutes later to try again. Sometimes I gave her a time-out - never in her crate, because her crate was where only good things happen. I put her in the bathroom (boring) for no more than 2 minutes, and then let her back out to try again. Dogs learn through association, and she soon figured out that jumping up and nipping cost her a valued resource - me, and/or the children. 

I also had to teach my grandchildren (not to mention several adults!) how to appropriately interact with puppies. Yelling, swatting, pushing them away only incites them to riot! <BG> Children often trigger unwanted (and even dangerous) behavior in dogs, simply because of their jerky body movements and shrieky, shrill voices. It's why they get attacked and bitten by dogs who are not "bad" dogs, they are simply being dogs. Children should never be allowed to run, or to roughhouse on the floor with a puppy or a dog, because play can soon become frenzied, and end in tragedy. And, when in a room with the puppy, supervise, supervise, supervise!

Think in terms of what you WOULD like your puppy to do, rather than focus on her unwanted behavior. It sounds like you and the puppy could benefit from a puppy class to learn how to train your puppy. Perhaps have a trainer come out to the house to observe, so you will learn why what you are doing is creating the very behavior you do not want. 

When bringing a puppy home, it's a good idea to write out a training plan, and then implement the steps needed to achieve each goal (i.e., off, sit, leave it, down, come). If you want a well-behaved, balanced dog, you will have to be patient, persistent, consistant, and committed to working with your puppy every day, all day (don't worry, they sleep a lot)! I established a daily routine with some structure. This helps a puppy feel safe and secure, because s/he knows what to expect. Just like children, dogs thrive on structure and routine. First, morning run off the zoomies time, and potty, then in for breakfast. Then out to potty, and a 2-min. training session (sit, come, GOOD GIRL!). Tether the puppy to you for 30-60 minutes while you go about your business. Your puppy will learn to pay attention to you, and to sit or lay quietly at your feet. It is very useful in housetraining because you will know by her body language that she has to potty, and you can get her outside. Good girl! Then back in for "quiet time," in her crate, or on a mat with a chewie. Several 2-5 min. training sessions throughout the day will be more effective than long sessions, too much for a puppy that age, anyway. You have a lot on your plate with children and a very young puppy. Just remember that she is a baby, and that it's up to you to shape her behavior through training. 

Training should be FUN! For you, and for the puppy. If it's not, then something is very wrong. I foster re-homes and rescues, and I very rarely allow a dog to be adopted into homes with young children - unless I know the person is dog-savvy, and has references to prove it. I'm not against children growing up with puppies/dogs - I did, and my children did. However, it's a huge committment and responsibility. So, hang in there! Get help from a trainer who understands operant conditioning and positive reinforcement. Using force through aversives is no way to train a puppy. 

Good luck! And keep us posted on how things are going.











Boxer & Co. said:


> ok, ok, ok.........I get it. Your damned if ya do and your damned if you don't.
> Here is my problem. My children are becoming scared of our 8 week old puppy. My children do not hurt her in anyway and are never left unattended with her. I am trying to teach the dog to quit being so rough with the kids. No, they do not rough house or play tug a war with her. The puppy jumps on them and nips and chews their hands constantly. My child cannot walk in front of the dog without being knocked down and bit and scratched. I know she can be trained but how? What I've been doing is popping her on the but. No, not hard but I still call it spanking. I spank my kids and I say I spank them. They get spanked harder than the dog. No, I don't abuse my kids. Thats a whole topic I am very strong in my beliefs on and I ain't gettin into it here. So, please don't say anything about the fact that I spank my kids. Anyhow, am I doing wrong by popping her butt when she is doing this to my kids? Before I do I usually say "Ah, Coco, no bite". She doesn't here me. The kids evidently taste good. I repeat again and move closer to her this time. She looks at me but continues with her munching. The kid is crying. Now, that is when I spank her. I pop her on the butt and she leaves the kid alone. For a min. anyway. It seems that gets her attention. I don't know if its going to work though. Any advice would help our family out alot.
> Also, I don't want to sound like all I do all day is punish her. She gets praised, belly rubs, treats, outside playtime where she can eat the mulch out of the flower beds. I am constantly rewarding her for good things she does. I believe she is really smart and learns quick. She is only 8 weeks and basically housetrained already. She goes to the door and whines. She has been doing it for about 3 days now. She has only woke me up once to go potty during the night. She stays in her crate all night and doesn't make a sound. Ok, I'll quit bragging now. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone. That was certainly not my intentions. I'm just a little confused on what to do with my situation.


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## threedognite

The only reason to even raise a hand to a dog is in self defense. Period.
Hitting and spanking are human reactions and only creates fear in the dog. This is the opposite of what we want from our dogs. As a professional dog trainer, I have come across owners who firmly believe in spanking and try as I might to train these people to train their dog using positive methods, one or two continued to spank so I ended the training contract.


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## Dorygirl

I am a 2nd grade teacher, a mom of 4 children, a youth soccer coach, and the owner of a puppy. There is never reason to spank a child or a dog in order to achieve desired behaviors. Never ever. 

Positive reinforcement works every time. It just requires more thought and patience. Spanking (hitting) and yelling are lazy ways to "discipline".


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## Boxer & Co.

Ok, as I said earlier, I do spank my children, that is my beliefs and I will not get into a debate on spanking my children. I will say it is anything but lazy. I take great offense to that. I'm not going to get into a lengthy post about why I spank my children. I will not explain myself especially if someone will never see my point of view. Its wasted time. With that said, as far as my puppy goes.............she does not understand as my children do.
Spanking is not happening with her now. I was poppin her on the but when she would act rough with the kids. I didn't know if it was going to work. I didn't want her to be afraid of me. That is not why we got a dog. I was asking a question about should I spank for her nipping at my children. I did research and found alot of articles and advice that has helped with our problem. She is much calmer now and is growing out of it on her own. We yelp as a puppy and ignore her when she is acting that way. Dogs will become fearfull if you are constantly on there case yelling at them or if you spank them. 
As for all of the advice given on my situation; thank you. What you said to do worked and I am at ease now. I think most of the stress comes from not knowing the answers more than the actual behavior. Thank you for your time to reply to my post and for helping me and my family. My little ones' ankles thank you too!lol


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## Alpha

Your pup is still pretty young.

The yelping is the number one method IMO, for young pups, to stop biting, nipping during play. Ignoring is the second.

I'd say around 4 months, start having small short training sessions with your kids and the pups.

Whether it be just a theory, where you have the kids sit, and talk to them a little bit about how the puppy thinks and what's the proper way to treat the puppy.

Or once, the pup gets a basic understanding of commands like sit/down, start getting the children to train with you.

It helped a lot on my end. With two small children that were at my house everyday, and two dogs with a combined weight of around 140lbs! 

It also helped build the kids confidence with the dogs, and they learned a bit about how to behave around them, how to get them to stop jumping, or obey a command etc.

You hit the nail on the head, with:


> Dogs will become fearfull if you are constantly on there case yelling at them or if you spank them.


Sometimes they become fearful, and other times indifferent to your yelling/spanking.

WELL PLACED corrections (whether it be verbal or a tap on the arse) are what make the difference.

Screaming at your dog every minute for something different, will either make them cower, or indifferent to your efforts, which I've seen and looks horribly frusterating! LOL

Good luck


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## Boxer & Co.

Alpha said:


> Your pup is still pretty young.
> 
> The yelping is the number one method IMO, for young pups, to stop biting, nipping during play. Ignoring is the second.
> 
> I'd say around 4 months, start having small short training sessions with your kids and the pups.
> 
> Whether it be just a theory, where you have the kids sit, and talk to them a little bit about how the puppy thinks and what's the proper way to treat the puppy.
> 
> Or once, the pup gets a basic understanding of commands like sit/down, start getting the children to train with you.
> 
> It helped a lot on my end. With two small children that were at my house everyday, and two dogs with a combined weight of around 140lbs!
> 
> It also helped build the kids confidence with the dogs, and they learned a bit about how to behave around them, how to get them to stop jumping, or obey a command etc.
> 
> You hit the nail on the head, with:
> 
> Sometimes they become fearful, and other times indifferent to your yelling/spanking.
> 
> WELL PLACED corrections (whether it be verbal or a tap on the arse) are what make the difference.
> 
> Screaming at your dog every minute for something different, will either make them cower, or indifferent to your efforts, which I've seen and looks horribly frusterating! LOL
> 
> Good luck



Thanks, alpha. Yes, indeed I think that talking to the kids has helped alot as well. Well, my 3yr. old anyhow. My 1yr. old could care less. He justs sits and smiles at Coco. Now my 3yr. old, she has started turning her back to Coco and folding her arms. Coco just sits down and looks at her with her head cocked to one side and its like she is saying to my daughter "why are you mad?" I kind of find it funny. They are getting along much better.


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## Chayse

since she is only 8 weeks old i would suggest putting a leash on her and letting her drag it around the house that way if she bites or nips at your kids then you can give her a quck jerk on her leash to correct her. Plus it will help to teach to walk on a leash. You could also get a spray bottle and fill it with water. and just spray her with it when she bites or does something naughty like that. Good luck and congrats on your new puppy.


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## Boxer & Co.

Chayse said:


> since she is only 8 weeks old i would suggest putting a leash on her and letting her drag it around the house that way if she bites or nips at your kids then you can give her a quck jerk on her leash to correct her. Plus it will help to teach to walk on a leash. You could also get a spray bottle and fill it with water. and just spray her with it when she bites or does something naughty like that. Good luck and congrats on your new puppy.


Thats sounds like a good idea. I'll try the leash method tomarrow. Thanks.


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## edogforums

siberian husky lover12 said:


> Well, all do is spank my dogs with newspaper. It scares them so they do not want to do whatever they did the next time. I trained my puppy in just 1.5 weeks and she has never gone on the floor scince.


That is exactly what I do with my little boxer. I swipe her bottom with a lightweight paper roll and it catches her attention. I used to spank her a lot but I realized that I didn't feel good about it and I didn't want to make her afraid of me in way that would paralyze her emotions. Plus, I don't know much about animal behavior to know how spanking her continuously would affect her later on. So, for now.....I catch her attention with the empty paper towel roll.


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## Captbob

I view spanking dogs with anything including newspaper, as being just the same as beating your kids or your spouse. It accomplishes nothing except getting your dog to be afraid of you.....


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## workingdog

Boxer & Co. said:


> Thanks, alpha. Yes, indeed I think that talking to the kids has helped alot as well. Well, my 3yr. old anyhow. My 1yr. old could care less. He justs sits and smiles at Coco. Now my 3yr. old, she has started turning her back to Coco and folding her arms. Coco just sits down and looks at her with her head cocked to one side and its like she is saying to my daughter "why are you mad?" I kind of find it funny. They are getting along much better.


You say you spank your kids, please tell me you are not spanking a one and three year old. The only thing children learn from spankings is how to hit people. I do not believe in hitting anything. Kids, animals(what can be learned from this) How dose causing pain to others help anything. Before you say it, NO! you didn't ask for my opinion but ya got it anyway's(no charge)


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## Boxer & Co.

Workingdog...............Your opinion is noted, although it will not change my beliefs nor will it cross my mind that you may even be right. My house is a happy place where children do not get spanked all day.They rarely get spankings at all. My children are polite, and very well mannered. I go to a class on child training once a week. I have read many books on child rearing. How to Train Up a Child and What the Bible says about Child Rearing are two that I am working on right now. I believe that a child can be totally disciplined by the age of 3. My oldest is 3 and is respectful, smart, loving, and yes when I say "Time to pick up your toys" she picks them up sweetly and swiftly. She is not afraid of me. 
I know there are people out there who spank and do it out of laziness or anger. I am not the woman you see in Wal-Mart with her kids running wild, while she is yelling and swatting at her kids. I do not agree with alot of people who spank. Merely because of their reasoning. I spank to teach my child that when we do somethig bad there are consequences and sometimes those consequences will hurt. On the same note when we do something good, we are rewarded. My children are rewarded much more than reprimanded. 
Now, I could talk for days on this subject , but that is not what this post was about. I seriously don't think you will see my side of this. And thats fine, I didn't ask you to. All I'm saying is I think I do a damn good job of raising my children. God has entrusted our kids to my husband and I, and I believe we are doing what He wants us to. We all have our own way of doing things. I don't think its right to criticize someone merely because you don't agree with their views. If you noticed I didn't say anything about the way you raised your children.


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## Scouts_Mom

I don't "spank" my dogs, Scout is a very submissive dog by nature and a firm "NO" has always been enough. My parents may have spanked her once, but I ran at them screaming and crying for them to stop and they haven't done it since. She's my dog, they are not allowed to spank my dog. 

Our other dog, Brett, is a terrier, and is very stubborn however we do not spank her. She's well behaved and the only things she has issues with are running away off leash (and not coming when we call) and other dogs, so it's simple, we keep her leashed when we think there could be trouble.

I don't have kids, if I do, I won't spank. I am not against it, per se, but I will not do it myself. 

I ride horses, and it's common thought that riders are tough on them-and some are. My old coach was very whip happy. If the horse misbehaved, she bellowed, "STICK, STICK" and you were to give the horse a sharp correction. I was tired of it after 5 years. My horse is far from an angel but instead of hitting him hard, I try and use other aids before using my crop. When I do use it, it's behind my leg, not on his rump, so it's more like he's just being kicked with my heel as always, but harder.


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## Boxer & Co.

Scouts_Mom said:


> I don't "spank" my dogs, Scout is a very submissive dog by nature and a firm "NO" has always been enough. My parents may have spanked her once, but I ran at them screaming and crying for them to stop and they haven't done it since. She's my dog, they are not allowed to spank my dog.
> 
> Our other dog, Brett, is a terrier, and is very stubborn however we do not spank her. She's well behaved and the only things she has issues with are running away off leash (and not coming when we call) and other dogs, so it's simple, we keep her leashed when we think there could be trouble.
> 
> I don't have kids, if I do, I won't spank. I am not against it, per se, but I will not do it myself.
> 
> I ride horses, and it's common thought that riders are tough on them-and some are. My old coach was very whip happy. If the horse misbehaved, she bellowed, "STICK, STICK" and you were to give the horse a sharp correction. I was tired of it after 5 years. My horse is far from an angel but instead of hitting him hard, I try and use other aids before using my crop. When I do use it, it's behind my leg, not on his rump, so it's more like he's just being kicked with my heel as always, but harder.


You have a very good point. It seems you have a good head on your shoulders. I wish I could have been like that at 18. I wouldn't have got into as much trouble as I did. You really sound alot older than you are and much more mature.


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## threedognite

I'm happy that you found something that works for you and your children AND your new pup. The Internet is a great source of information on pets as you probably have already found out. 
I would like to say that your question really hit a nerve with many people (as you see) but it's good to see that so many pet owners agree that spanking our pets is a bad idea. Cesar Millan ( The Dog Whisperer) showed us that a slight touch is like a bite to dogs. I would say to adult dogs, yes, but to puppies, I think it only encourages biting. 
I wish you tons of luck and love with your new family member!


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## Marley

I have spanked my dog, marley, twcie and it was out of anger and frustration and did not accomplish anything! When I would take him for car rides he would always jump in the backseat when I opened the back door, but it got to the point where he would jump into the car when I didn't want him to, even if i said sit and stay and tried to block his path. So one day, he jumped in when I didn't want him to and I pulled him out roughly and yelled no loud! I pulled him out too roughly though, even though I didn't really spank him, because even today, several months later, I have to coax him with lots of "okays" and "let's go for a rides" before he'll get in. Everytime we go for a ride, I feel horrible about my reaction that day! I'll never do it again, either.


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## alexnpeteysmom

I spanked Alex once on the hip area when he had a potty training accident. All it did was scare him and make him cry. Shortly afterward, I discovered he has luxating patella in the leg that I spanked ... I know the two aren't related but I can't help but feel guilty. From now on - no corporal punishment at our house.


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## Pokerman11

I don't believe in 'spanking' with an open hand. I don't want the dog to fear me too much. HOwever for me I have large working class dogs and they have a very high tollerance for pain. I do believe i need to hit them once and a while. 

Mostly to startle them, and I usualy try to make a loud of a noise as possible. A crack of the leash works, or a rolled up mag, but again I was told to never hit with my own hands. 

only need to do it once and a while usualy duing my initial training, mostly when the dog is not paying attention and needs to focus on me. I want to startle them to focus on me and not be scared of me. 

HOwever, in truth the dog needs to really respect me as the leader. I'm firm during training. Really firm - never hurt them be be firm. 

Again this is for large working class dogs, as that's what I train.

tks


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## Curbside Prophet

Whether a dog has a high tolerance of pain or not, how does that qualify the need for physical punishment?

If you don't hit with your own hands, are you saying you use an instrument to strike with? Or a projectile?

If you startle the dog during initial training, what of the possibilities that you may startle them into not liking training?

I don't understand how being a leader or being firm gives reason to physical punishments. Can you explain?

There are working dogs that have never been physically corrected. Why are they successful without physical punishments?

Just searching for enlightenment, not trying to be argumentative here.


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## Mdawn

Nope, I've never spanked my dogs. I think hitting out of anger is a nasty thing to start and could lead to an even nastier cycle. Now have I WANTED to spank my dogs...almost daily.  

I remember an incident that happened a few weeks, maybe a month ago. I was outside with Eddie and Uallis for their night time potty. They both went and then decided to start wrestling. It was late and I wasn't up for it and wanted them back inside. Neither one would listen to me when I told them to back off. I went and attempted to grab their collars to pull them apart and Eddie jumped up on me and almost got me in the face. He WAS NOT being aggressive, I know my dog and that wasn't his intention, anyway I was PO'd to say the least. That is behavior I WILL NOT tolerate. Period. I pushed him away from me, I have to admit I pushed him hard, and turned my back and walked away from him, went in the house and SLAMMED the door. I was seriously ticked off. I didn't let either one back in the house until I calmed down. They were safer outside then they would have been inside at that point... That was probably the closest I came to striking him and I actually wanted to at that time. So if I would have it would have been with the intent of satisfying me and what would have made me feel better and with that intention behind it, it wouldn't have taught him anything. It could have even made his behavior worse. Now did Eddie receive any sort of correction when he did that? Probably not of the typical sort of correction and probably not an ideal correction, but he did act contrite when him and Uallis came back in. It wasn't ideal to not really correct him, but I was mentally incapable of doing it, I was simply too angry and after I calmed down and was capable, it was too late. However, I feel that sometimes the best thing to do in that type of situation is just to walk away.


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## GoingNuts

I haven't spanked our new little guy yet, although I've been tempted...heck I've been tempted to pick him up and shake the daylights out of him.
I read that the only time (gentle) spanking is useful is if you catch them IN THE ACT of whatever bad behavior it is (dog is peeing on the floor, you spank him WHILE it's happening and pick him up and take him outside)..
I don't know the first thing about dogs, though, we just got a beagle puppy three weeks ago and I can't stand him. Does anyone agree that it's useful as an "in-act" response?


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## BoxMeIn21

GoingNuts said:


> I haven't spanked our new little guy yet, although I've been tempted...heck I've been tempted to pick him up and shake the daylights out of him.
> I read that the only time (gentle) spanking is useful is if you catch them IN THE ACT of whatever bad behavior it is (dog is peeing on the floor, you spank him WHILE it's happening and pick him up and take him outside)..
> I don't know the first thing about dogs, though, we just got a beagle puppy three weeks ago and I can't stand him. Does anyone agree that it's useful as an "in-act" response?


No, there is _never_ a reason to spank your dog. Hitting your dog only accoomplishes one thing - it teaches your dog to mistrust you. The appropriate and humane response when caught in the act is to _show_ your dog what you would like him to do instead. If it's peeing on the carpet, scoop him up and have him finish outside, lavish him with praise when he's successful. If he's chewing on the chair leg, redirect him to a toy that he's supposed to be chewing on and praise.


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## GoingNuts

Thanks for the advice, I'll keep it in mind. Like I said, I haven't hit him yet, although I've been tempted, and hearing your thoughts, I'll make sure I don't I'm just way out of my league - I know ZERO about dogs, except for what I've read in recent months, and a lot of the info I'm getting is contradictory...thanks for clearing that myth up for me


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## BoxMeIn21

GoingNuts said:


> Thanks for the advice, I'll keep it in mind. Like I said, I haven't hit him yet, although I've been tempted, and hearing your thoughts, I'll make sure I don't I'm just way out of my league - I know ZERO about dogs, except for what I've read in recent months, and a lot of the info I'm getting is contradictory...thanks for clearing that myth up for me


There is lots of information that suggest bullying your dog is the appropriate correction, but it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.  
It must be difficult not being a dog person, but have a dog - (a beagle no less).  Dogs can sense your unease as well, it might be worthwhile learning a little about dog behavior so your interactions are not always negative.
You might want to give this book a read - The Other End of the Leash, by Patricia McConnell.


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## Sadie's Human

I have heard that spanking is counterproductive in some dogs and I believe it. We have recently adopted a dog from the pound that is mixed with Akita, and apparently Akita's are very proud dogs. My husband spanked her when she was bad, and it didn't make her behave any better. Quite the opposite, she seems truly insulted that he doesn't recognize her royal lineage. We have always had Lab crosses before, and we never even had to yell to make them behave because Labs will feel bad if you give them a dirty look. We have learned to be very patient with our little Akita, and she is coming along nicely. She proves the old adage that "anything worth having is worth working for".


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## Mdawn

Sadie's Human said:


> I have heard that spanking is counterproductive in some dogs and I believe it. We have recently adopted a dog from the pound that is mixed with Akita, and apparently Akita's are very proud dogs. My husband spanked her when she was bad, and it didn't make her behave any better. Quite the opposite, she seems truly insulted that he doesn't recognize her royal lineage. We have always had Lab crosses before, and we never even had to yell to make them behave because Labs will feel bad if you give them a dirty look. We have learned to be very patient with our little Akita, and she is coming along nicely. She proves the old adage that "anything worth having is worth working for".


LOL!! _MY_ Lab could care less if I give him a dirty look. He'd laugh in my face if he could. He's a demon on 4 legs though. He's lucky I love him so much


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## Cobalt

To answer your question, I was not spanked, I did not spank my 3 children and I have never spanked one of my dogs.


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## BoxMeIn21

Cobalt said:


> To answer your question, I was not spanked, I did not spank my 3 children and I have never spanked one of my dogs.


I was spanked... maybe _thats_ my problem.


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## Cobalt

No, it's a natural reaction when they do something awful. I had to count with my kids and I count with Mia! I have been doing a lot of counting with her puppy biting phase...


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## BoxMeIn21

I was joking.  

My natural reaction is to ask them what the hell they were thinking. But seeing as I have dogs instead of kids, you can imagine I don't get much of a response.


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## digits mama

I spanked my son once.. When he was about 7, He had alot of freinds that got spanked for whatever reason. He found that it was a game.. He would instigate things to get another child in trouble just to see the other child get spanked. I had freinds tell me what he was doing and as a proud mom I didnt believe it until he was caught in the act 5 times before I finally had enough. He had the gleem in his eye when his mission was accomplished and it was horrifying to me at that point. I gave him the ole 3 strikes trick and in a matter of 30 minutes he hit his 3rd. It wasnt a spanking like I got as a kid (I thank my parents for the a** whoopins BTW) But it was enough to nip that problem in the bud. To this day he brings it up and laughs about it. 

As for my dogs...nope.. I remember with Dozer I wanted to once. I was walking with 2 of my freinds in the yard. we heard his thump tha thumping behind us. Before we could turn around and say STOPPP...he Bowled us over like bowling pins. He thought he was funny...We didnt.. One friend ended up with 3 broken fingers...the other ended up with a cracked elbow and I ended up with bruised butt and hospital bills.


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## Love's_Sophie

nrhareiner said:


> I do spank my animals if you want to call it that. How I do it depends on the animal. However I have a 3 second rule. If you are going to disapline an animal you do it with in 3 seconds of them doing what they are doing and it only last 3 seconds. Beleive me it does work.
> 
> Heidi


I agree, any correction, no matter what method you choose to use (e-collar, a flick on the rear, a distraction followed by a come, etc.) it must be done while the animal is in the act, or within 3-4 seconds after; which means you have to be there when the 'deed' has been done. I train horses as well, and correction has to come in that same time period, otherwise the animal has no recollection of the event that you are trying to correct. A dog might look guilty when you come home and discover the trash all over the floor, but that is only because he senses your anger, not because he really realizes what you are angry about; they don't think like we do, nor do they remember their acts like we do.


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## OneCrazyDogOwner

I wont spank my dogs.. I don't want them to be afraid of me.. a good example of this is my b/f.. he spanks the dogs tork seems to listen to it more then my dog maya.. shes is afraid of him he calls her to come in the house she will stay in the back yard and not listen because she thinks shes going to get hit.. I have only hit her once and felt soo bad for it I all i did was hug her and brush her hours but I have to tell the b/f to go into the kichen or something and then call maya in and she comes just fine for me..


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## Ella'sMom

I would never want to use my hands out of anger with my dog. I want her to know she can always trust me and that I would never hurt her. I also want her to behave because she respects me and wants to behave...not because she is fearful of me hitting her. In my opinion, spanking is just a nice way of saying hitting. I will admit that in the past with my old dog, a stubborn lab, I wacked him on the nose a few times - but I regretted it every time. I have never raised my hand to Ella ....and hopefully never will. She is 7 pounds right now.... where is the fairness in that? I don't want her to fear me....just respect me.
For the record, I also have 3 kids and I do not spank them either...and they are pretty good kids.


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## GoingNuts

To the person who posted about the kids being scared of the dog (sorry, I can't remember who it was): I understand completely. I have a 16 month old daughter and the pup (now 12 weeks) is CONSTANTLY scratching and nipping her. So I see the conflict there: you don't want to "hit" the dog, but if you have a choice between tapping the dog on the butt or watching your little one's fingers get chewed, you pick the dog tap. I'm trying to maneuver my way through the same mess you are. My little one is too young to understand how to redirect Ringo when he nips...I'm guessing she won't really understand it for a couple more years.
The difficulties of being a new parent and a new puppy owner are tough...I know that "spanking" Ringo (and when I say spank, I mean a LIGHT swat on the butt to get his attention) isn't appealing, but I certainly don't feel that letting him attack the little one is, either. 
Good luck with that. The other complication is that my little one will see me "swat" the pup and she's started copying the behavior...what can I do about this???


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## MegaMuttMom

There is never a reason to spank, swat, or in any other way physically intimidate a dog or a child. I have a fearful dog. If I swatted him I think his fear could easily turn to agression. Children learn what they live. If you swat the dog, they will swat the dog. I have 2 children who have been raised with never a hand on either one aside from using them to pick them up and put them in time-out or remove them from situations. Just like with my dog, they were raised with clear expectations, consistency, and consequences that made sense. I have always treated them with respect as human beings and they have respected me in return. Use you body in a gentle way to get between your dog and the child. Clearly, neither has the impulse control to keep their hands/paws off the other. Prenvention is sooooooo important. You can't blame either the child or the dog in this situation. If you had human twin toddlers that were bashing each other would you hit or swat them to teach them to stop or would you move them out of each others reach? Think about it, which would teach better that hitting is not OK?


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## GoingNuts

Thank you, MegaMuttMom for the wise input. I actually only swatted Ringo 2-3 times when we first got him and IMMEDIATELY stopped once my little one mimicked the behavior. I agree with you, 100%, they learn what they see, and boy, let me tell you the GUILT I felt!!! It has NEVER happened since then...

But I AM looking for advice on how to better keep them separated, so any feedback would be great!


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## MegaMuttMom

I've never had to keep a dog away from a child but I did have to keep my kids seperated sometimes. My daughter would get really mad when her little brother would come and knock down her block towers and stuff so I would let her into his paypen (she was 4) so he could cruise around and she could play in peace. A paypen for the dog might be a great idea for when you can't be directly paying attention to them. Give the dog lots of attention when your child is napping, let the child have breaks from the baby. I wish I could be more help but crates/playyards seem like they could be a really good tool.


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## Regi

OMG Please dont even mention spanking a precious dog I love them so much My brother used to train a family dog I had years ago by rubbing the nose in the pee and all that and spanking I dont agree with it I love my dogs. My old family dog was trained ect but I wouldnt ever do it that way Its more rewarding to be able to train them without all that ,, it can be done without hurting the dog and breaking his trust and spirit


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## dogs daddy

I was looking for the correct way to punish a four month Dachshund puppy who has recently begain to poop in the house. We have a doggy door and "Sam" still goes outside to pee but then comes back inside to poop! I have been unable to catch him at it! 
Sam was trained (I thought) to go outside at seven weeks. 

I am still at a loss after reading the pros and cons! Can someone please help!


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## War

This is my personal opinion not trying to instigate any debate just giving my views on the subject.As a child I was physically spanked for every little infraction.A spanking did teach me to behave but out of the fear of getting spanked not because I actually learned from my behavior. I just learned how to be sneaky about it.I dont believe spankings teach anything other than fear.
I dont have kids but if and when I do I will make sure that child is never spanked.
With dogs,even though they are not human they feel pain and hitting your dog is a betrayal of trust.Your hand should always be a symbol of being petted not being hit. And remember,your dog is capable of crushing your hand with one snap of his jaws and yet he doesnt so dont hit him because one day he will get tired of the abuse and 'hit' you back with his teeth.Anyway thats just my opinion ultimately people will do what they do no matter what.Just wanted to put my 2 cents worth thats all


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## dogs daddy

War said:


> This is my personal opinion not trying to instigate any debate just giving my views on the subject.As a child I was physically spanked for every little infraction.A spanking did teach me to behave but out of the fear of getting spanked not because I actually learned from my behavior. I just learned how to be sneaky about it.I dont believe spankings teach anything other than fear.
> I dont have kids but if and when I do I will make sure that child is never spanked.
> With dogs,even though they are not human they feel pain and hitting your dog is a betrayal of trust.Your hand should always be a symbol of being petted not being hit. And remember,your dog is capable of crushing your hand with one snap of his jaws and yet he doesnt so dont hit him because one day he will get tired of the abuse and 'hit' you back with his teeth.Anyway thats just my opinion ultimately people will do what they do no matter what.Just wanted to put my 2 cents worth thats all


Thank you I understand spanking is out but I still need a way to correct his bad habit!!


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## poodleholic

> There is never a reason to spank, swat, or in any other way physically intimidate a dog or a child. I have a fearful dog. If I swatted him I think his fear could easily turn to agression. Children learn what they live. If you swat the dog, they will swat the dog. I have 2 children who have been raised with never a hand on either one aside from using them to pick them up and put them in time-out or remove them from situations. Just like with my dog, they were raised with clear expectations, consistency, and consequences that made sense. I have always treated them with respect as human beings and they have respected me in return. Use you body in a gentle way to get between your dog and the child. Clearly, neither has the impulse control to keep their hands/paws off the other. Prenvention is sooooooo important. You can't blame either the child or the dog in this situation. If you had human twin toddlers that were bashing each other would you hit or swat them to teach them to stop or would you move them out of each others reach? Think about it, which would teach better that hitting is not OK?


Beautifully put. 



> I was looking for the correct way to punish a four month Dachshund puppy who has recently begain to poop in the house. We have a doggy door and "Sam" still goes outside to pee but then comes back inside to poop! I have been unable to catch him at it!
> Sam was trained (I thought) to go outside at seven weeks.
> 
> I am still at a loss after reading the pros and cons! Can someone please help!



Your puppy is still a baby, and since he poops in the house, he is not housetrained. Go back to housetraining 101, and forget using the doggy door until he truly understands. Contain your puppy whenever you cannot supervise, and try the umbelical method of tethering your puppy to you for periods of time, so you will immediately know by his body language when he has to potty, and can take him out. 

Also, keep him on a schedule with regard to feeding and routine. This will make housetraining much, much easier *for* you, and *on* your little puppy.


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## Curbside Prophet

dogs daddy said:


> I was looking for the correct way to punish a four month Dachshund puppy who has recently begain to poop in the house. We have a doggy door and "Sam" still goes outside to pee but then comes back inside to poop! I have been unable to catch him at it!
> Sam was trained (I thought) to go outside at seven weeks.


Yes, the only correct way to punish in this instance is to find the nearest wall and start banging your head on it. Seriously, if the dog is pooping in the house this is a human absent problem and not a dog problem...punish the absent human, not the dog. You should only punish the dog if you catch him in the act, and I would do so with an instructive reprimand like "outside!", sweeping him up and taking him outside, then completing the circle by rewarding him for eliminating outside. No rocket science here, just consistency, lots of successful eliminations, and minimizing human error.


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## Regi

I taught my 4 year old that the dogs have feelings too and if you hurt them they wont protect him so he really is good with them all the time and my yorkie adores my kids the chi basically loves me and only me


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## dogs daddy

Thank you! Poodleholic.
This is what I am looking for and I think this will work for Me and Sam!


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## MushPuppies

When I was a kid my dad had two Dobermans and he would spank them if they misbehaved. They would cower and never wanted to come to him. He did the same thing with me and I had the exact same reaction. It didn't produce more obedience it just produced fear. 
I have seven Huskies and none of them have ever been spanked. I have four kids and none of them have ever been spanked either. My dogs and my kids are extremely well behaved. They want to do well, they just need some positive reinforcement.


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## wyopets

Curbside Prophet said:


> I would not compare a dog's ability to reason with that of children. Unless the dog is committing a heinous crime, aversives are not needed. Can you explain a situation when spanking may be required? I apologize if I missed an example in a previous post.



As a matter of fact, I can explain a situation where physical correction is required. I looked through this entire post to make sure this scenario was never brought up and unless I missed it no one has. In my life I have worked with two deaf dogs. Since these dogs could not hear at all attention had to be gotten through vibrations or physical contact, so if one of them was doing something wrong where they couldn't see us the general correction was to stomp on the floor which usually worked very well. That is, it worked very well pretty much every time for one of the dogs who was generally more laid-back and submissive by nature. The other dog, however, was a hound and every bit as bull-headed as nearly every hound I've ever worked with. I know she could feel the stomp, but during her first several months with us and then occasionally thereafter she would choose to ignore that correction and keep on with what she's not supposed to be doing, at which time she would receive a light slap on the rump. This didn't hurt her in the least, barely even made any sound because obviously that would be pointless, but it did get her attention and let her know I mean business and the next step would be a time out.

That said, I do spank on occasion. All of my dogs are working-class dogs and three of the four are excessively bull-headed. Two of my dogs, Patches and Dozer, are never spanked because there is no reason with their temperments...if a calm verbal reprimand isn't enough I revert to the stomping on the floor we used with the deaf dogs and that does the trick. However, Ding and Nehemiah are as bull-headed as they come and there are times I've headed one off on a full run for somewhere they're not supposed to be, they show an unhealthy interest in one of the other animals (one of my dad's cats puffed up at Nehemiah when we were visiting once and my dog's hound instinct kicked in instantly as he chased the cat under a recliner and was trying his best to move the recliner...he generally gets along well with cats and I even have some cute pictures of him sleeping curled up with a couple of them, but once he's on the hunt there has to be some definite dissuasion) or other such situations where a verbal reprimand will not help and control needs to be achieved immediately.

A spanking does depend a lot on an animals personality as many of the timid animals previously mentioned here should certainly never be spanked, and just like when a child is spanked it must never be done when someone is angry or frustrated or out of a desire to cause pain.


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## Allydog

Doberdude said:


> Amen to that. I only spank my dog rarely and has to be something really bad, just a little smack on the bottom.


completely agree...I have swatted Ally before just to get her attention..not to hurt.


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## funzo333

This is a very difficult problem, because you want your dog to be good, and you want to be happy together, but sometimes it feels like there's no alternative to spanking. My personal experience has been two-fold. I used to spank my older dogs as a form of punishment and training, and it worked. It wasn't fun, and I didnt enjoy it, but it got the job done, and eventually they learned. It wasn't a big hit, just a little smack on the butt _immediately_ after they did something wrong.

Now, I use other tecniques that don't require hitting, and I get the same results. If you really don't want to hit your dog, you don't have to. There are other more gentle ways of training that work.


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## Curbside Prophet

wyopets said:


> In my life I have worked with two deaf dogs. Since these dogs could not hear at all attention had to be gotten through vibrations or physical contact, so if one of them was doing something wrong where they couldn't see us the general correction was to stomp on the floor which usually worked very well.


 I can’t rationalize a physical attention cue with a deaf dog as a physical punishment, though it is possible the physical contact is punishing, but I think you’re comparing apples to oranges here. 



> The other dog, however, was a hound and every bit as bull-headed as nearly every hound I've ever worked with. I know she could feel the stomp, but during her first several months with us and then occasionally thereafter she would choose to ignore that correction and keep on with what she's not supposed to be doing, at which time she would receive a light slap on the rump.


 Since the dog was new, it’s very likely you punished the dog for not understanding your cue, correct? It begs the question, what was the dog's reward history prior? Or perhaps you punish the dog because you couldn’t compete with the environment, and you hadn't proofed an alternate behavior? These are both trainer related issues, and neither warrants a physical punishment.



> This didn't hurt her in the least, barely even made any sound because obviously that would be pointless, but it did get her attention and let her know I mean business and the next step would be a time out.


 Just a formality because I’m always interested in how people know this; especially considering a dog’s natural ability to conceal and overcome pain; how did you know it didn’t hurt her? And how did you know she understood you meant business? Since only the dog knows what hurts, isn’t it just as likely your punishment was painful, and that’s why the dog stopped? And instead of knowing you meant business, she knew you were unstable and frightening? Considering the only information you have is observed, why would give more credit to one and not the other? 



> All of my dogs are working-class dogs and three of the four are excessively bull-headed.


 Calling your dogs working-class and bull headed is only an excuse not to train. It is not a justification for physical punishment, however. 



> Nehemiah when we were visiting once and my dog's hound instinct kicked in instantly as he chased the cat under a recliner and was trying his best to move the recliner...he generally gets along well with cats and I even have some cute pictures of him sleeping curled up with a couple of them, but once he's on the hunt there has to be some definite dissuasion) or other such situations where a verbal reprimand will not help and control needs to be achieved immediately.


 It’s very difficult, if not impossible, to punish instinct. In fact, I would go so far as to say instinct is resistant to punishment. So why use physical punishment at all, when you’re likely to exacerbate the problem further? Since you know the onset of the behavior, management would be a more effective solution IMO. 




> A spanking does depend a lot on an animals personality as many of the timid animals previously mentioned here should certainly never be spanked…


 Punishments are not justified on temperament. They are justified by their effectiveness and your humanity to quantify them. I stand by what I’ve stated many months ago, physical punishments are not necessary unless the dog is committing a heinous crime. None of the scenarios you’ve mentioned are uncommon or heinous. A good trainer can work through all these issues.


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## wyopets

Curbside Prophet said:


> I can’t rationalize a physical attention cue with a deaf dog as a physical punishment, though it is possible the physical contact is punishing, but I think you’re comparing apples to oranges here.


Perhaps you misunderstood...it was not used as a physical cue, but rather as the cue to let her know she was in something she wasn't supposed to be in. If I merely wanted to get her attention when she was doing nothing wrong I would walk up and touch her shoulder. 



> Since the dog was new, it’s very likely you punished the dog for not understanding your cue, correct? It begs the question, what was the dog's reward history prior? Or perhaps you punish the dog because you couldn’t compete with the environment, and you hadn't proofed an alternate behavior? These are both trainer related issues, and neither warrants a physical punishment.


The dog was new to me, not to the training. I never punish a dog the first time or two they get into something they're not supposed to, but rather say "no" and pull them away from it, rewarding with praise when they are back where they are supposed to be. Punishment comes when I know a dog knows it's not supposed to do what it's doing.



> Just a formality because I’m always interested in how people know this; especially considering a dog’s natural ability to conceal and overcome pain; how did you know it didn’t hurt her? And how did you know she understood you meant business? Since only the dog knows what hurts, isn’t it just as likely your punishment was painful, and that’s why the dog stopped? And instead of knowing you meant business, she knew you were unstable and frightening? Considering the only information you have is observed, why would give more credit to one and not the other?


I know because it was no harder than you'd pat a baby's back to burp it. Tell me that hurts a dog, that a dog has ever been hurt by that aside from very tiny or sickly animals. She knows I mean business at that point, as I said, because if she did not correct the behavior at that point she got a ten-minute "time out" in her crate and she liked to avoid those. I do not believe she was hurt or saw me as unstable and frightening for the reason outlined above, it is not a cue meant to be painful and I do not use it in a painful way.



> Calling your dogs working-class and bull headed is only an excuse not to train. It is not a justification for physical punishment, however.


I call them working-class because they are...they are hounds, herders and retrievers. How is calling them bull-headed an excuse not to train when I spend countless hours doing just that? These classes of dogs are known to be more challenging to train because of their higher energy levels and acute senses that keep them from missing any little distraction around them. Obviously I do not use this as an excuse not to train because they are well-trained and have the trophies to prove it. However, dogs have a mind of their own and there are times that even the best-trained dog may decide to do what it wants instead of what its handler wants.



> It’s very difficult, if not impossible, to punish instinct. In fact, I would go so far as to say instinct is resistant to punishment. So why use physical punishment at all, when you’re likely to exacerbate the problem further? Since you know the onset of the behavior, management would be a more effective solution IMO.


I am not punishing instinct, I am breaking his attention away from his intention to rip my dad's cat to shreds and remind him he has broken away from me who he's supposed to be listening to. It works, he only needs a reminder and again I do not give a physical reprimand hard enough to hurt and on this dog it doesn't even startle, it merely reminds. The behavior is managed, he does wonderfully around cats including my dad's cats who he's been around a lot...this particular cat, however, got it into his head to tease him and triggered a reaction that had not happened before with cats. It has, however, happened with squirrels and the like, he is a working hound and has a hound's instincts so there is still the occasional lapse if small furry animals dash in front of him out of nowhere because he's also trained to hunt.



> Punishments are not justified on temperament. They are justified by their effectiveness and your humanity to quantify them. I stand by what I’ve stated many months ago, physical punishments are not necessary unless the dog is committing a heinous crime. None of the scenarios you’ve mentioned are uncommon or heinous. A good trainer can work through all these issues.


Yes, they are justified by their effectiveness and I always use the mildest effective punishment. This is what works, this is what I use...and my dad's cat might have an opinion on your definition of heinous crimes


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## Curbside Prophet

wyopets said:


> Perhaps you misunderstood...it was not used as a physical cue, but rather as the cue to let her know she was in something she wasn't supposed to be in. If I merely wanted to get her attention when she was doing nothing wrong I would walk up and touch her shoulder.


No, I believe I understood - you stated clearly you slapped her rump to get her attention. Attention is a behavior. If you slapped her to get that attention, your slap is a cue. If you meant it as a punishment, 'to show her you meant business', you would/should not indiscriminately use physical punishment to teach a behavior like attention. 



> The dog was new to me, not to the training.


Yes but, training does not transfer. Dogs are masterful discriminators, they are not excellent generalizers. That means I can teach my dog what 'sit' means, this does not however mean she knows what your 'sit' means. New environments garner a step back in training not a raised level in criteria.



> Punishment comes when I know a dog knows it's not supposed to do what it's doing.


Without just saying 'I know the dog knows', how do you prove your dog's learning?



> I know because it was no harder than you'd pat a baby's back to burp it. Tell me that hurts a dog, that a dog has ever been hurt by that aside from very tiny or sickly animals.


Are you saying a dog's senses are equal to that of a baby? Or would you agree a dog's vision is better than ours, a dog's sense of smell is better than ours, a dog's hearing is better than our? If you agree, how can you deduce that dog does not sense pain better than a baby? 



> She knows I mean business at that point, as I said, because if she did not correct the behavior at that point she got a ten-minute "time out" in her crate and she liked to avoid those.


What about the possibility that you've taught her she's only punished when you're around? Does that give you a warm-fuzzy feeling? Put this to a test. Leave whatever you don't want her getting into, out, and take a 30 minute walk outside. Would you come home to an untouched whatever? Or would the dog get into whatever it is you left out? If so, she does not rationalize her world as you do for her. All she's learned is how to avoid punishment when you're around, not what behavior is preferred over another.



> I do not believe she was hurt or saw me as unstable and frightening for the reason outlined above, it is not a cue meant to be painful and I do not use it in a painful way.


If it's not a cue, and it's not punishing, why use it? Either you want to redirect the dog to an appropriate behavior, or reduce the frequency of the behavior from occurring in the future. There is no in between, otherwise, you're likely impeding learning. This isn't to suggest a stronger physical punishment, that's needless IMO, but you should have a clear definition of your criteria, not a hapless one. 



> How is calling them bull-headed an excuse not to train when I spend countless hours doing just that? These classes of dogs are known to be more challenging to train because of their higher energy levels and acute senses that keep them from missing any little distraction around them.


Where I come from 'bull-headed' is insulting. There's a difference between understanding a challenge and how that makes a dog unique versus a trait you do not prefer. I was not suggesting you didn't train your dogs, only that you did not see your dog's characteristics as an advantage to your skill. Because if you did, you would not see your dogs as 'bull-headed'. You'd see them as dogs who do not have the same preferences as other dog, therefore, your behavior needs to cater to these preferences. To call them 'bull-headed' is akin to throwing your hands up in the air. Would you agree that a dog that's appreciated is better trained than a dog who's not? If so, you'll see my point.



> Obviously I do not use this as an excuse not to train because they are well-trained and have the trophies to prove it.


Not to be rude, but trophies are not a measure of a dog's training. If they gave out trophies for sitting pretty and being companionable, my dog would win them all. Though I'm sure there are many on this forum who would argue their dogs would do the same, and for many I would have to agree to their argument. 



> I am not punishing instinct, I am breaking his attention away from his intention to rip my dad's cat to shreds and remind him he has broken away from me who he's supposed to be listening to.


You'll have to excuse my confusion, but if you're not punishing the dog, and if you're not cuing attention, how again are you reminding him to listen? 



> This is what works, this is what I use...and my dad's cat might have an opinion on your definition of heinous crimes


Well to be fair, you didn't really explain how this was an owner absent problem, because why would you allow this dog to rehearse the behavior to begin with. And you didn't exactly explain what your dog was doing, other than chasing a cat. This is hardly heinous, and if I know cats, the cat was enjoying the game.


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## wyopets

hehe...and if you know hounds, you know the cat was in desperate fear of his life, especially since he was cornered under the recliner with a dog trying desperately to get to him. I said that I wasn't punishing the instinct, not that I wasn't correcting at all.

I know she know she's not supposed to be in it because if she sees me before I correct her she leaves it immediately and yes, once she understood what wasn't allowed it did remain untouched when I left the house. Obviously I know training does not carry over entirely, though previous training does help dogs catch on faster...she didn't even have to get used to different voices since all her commands were in sign language and surprisingly that seemed to help...but I never expect any dog to know everything as soon as they come into my home nor did I ever insinuate I expect it. I have many many dogs go through my home and the shelters I train in, I just thought I'd offer my experiences on some instances that spanking of a sort is called for; and if you think they are that sensitive to pain you must be very uneasy about petting and brushing your dogs 

Here bull-headed is not offensive, it merely means a dog that is stubborn and generally easily distracted which fits most hounds to a T and is part of the reason I love them so much...they give a unique kind of challenge for someone who wishes to diversify a dog's training into different areas, most of my dogs are trained in four key areas plus general house and walking manners.

Yes, you have definitely demonstrated we have a difference of opinion on the subject, which I knew, and I'm not here to debate about it but I'll gladly offer up my results on various dogs to you in PM if I get the time . I am merely offering my own personal experiences as is the purpose of the thread...I can certainly see where this debate could escalate and would do nothing but waste each other's time, and I get tired of trying to explain every bit of the situation when it's obvious some of what I'm trying to say isn't translating right through text; my training methods have worked very well for me for 14 years and over 150 dogs and I'm sure you have plenty of reason to be attached to yours as well, anything beyond offering basic opinion is pointless


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## Curbside Prophet

wyopets said:


> and if you know hounds, you know the cat was in desperate fear of his life...I said that I wasn't punishing the instinct, not that I wasn't correcting at all.


I've been owned by two Bassett Hounds, so I know them a bit.  And I can recall a reoccurring event where a neighbor's cat would daily enter my dog's yard to lick the food crust off his bowl, and almost daily my dog chased him off. The cat never got away with much, but you could often find him hanging out on the fence at meal time patiently waiting for an opportunity. IMO the cat enjoyed teasing my dog, and to be frank I enjoyed watching him do it. I can recall another instance where my dog had pinned this same cat in a corner. My dog looked at me as if to suggest _what do I do now? _Only to find the cat had escaped while he wasn't looking. A dumb Bassett? No way. That part of the Bassett's behavior chain wasn't bred out of him, so any such labels are pointless and a waste of time that could be better spent on training. 



> I know she know she's not supposed to be in it because if she sees me before I correct her she leaves it immediately...


And why do you think this is? Perhaps because your body language cues the dog that punishment is coming? So, good job? 



> I have many many dogs go through my home and the shelters I train in, I just thought I'd offer my experiences on some instances that spanking of a sort is called for; and if you think they are that sensitive to pain you must be very uneasy about petting and brushing your dogs


Actually, I am uneasy about petting and brushing a dog before I know something about his preferences. Not all dogs care to be touched, even after endless hours of counter conditioning and desensitization. Some just tolerate it out of helplessness. So yes, I am very alert to how physical contact is received by a dog, regardless of how I humanly perceive that contact to be. I just find the practice of equating a dog's senses to human senses silly, especially when it's this rationale that's used to justify a physical punishment. 



> Here bull-headed is not offensive, it merely means a dog that is stubborn and generally easily distracted which fits most hounds to a T and is part of the reason I love them so much...


Stubborn, bull-headed, hard-headed, dumb, stupid, however you want to negatively label a dog all these euphemisms mean the same thing; there's something you don't appreciate about the dog, and you'll use this lack of appreciation to justify your own behavior. Most people, those who are human, find it difficult to punish a smart, level-headed, willing-to-please dog, but a stubborn dog is another story. It seems we humans are the only animal on the planet who feels it necessary to humanize an animal in order to justify our deeds. As much as this type of reasoning has helped us to evolve, I find this practice abusive when it comes to justifying physical punishments, nor does it illustrate a humanity IMO. 



> I am merely offering my own personal experiences as is the purpose of the thread...I can certainly see where this debate could escalate and would do nothing but waste each other's time, and I get tired of trying to explain every bit of the situation when it's obvious some of what I'm trying to say isn't translating right through text; my training methods have worked very well for me for 14 years and over 150 dogs and I'm sure you have plenty of reason to be attached to yours as well, anything beyond offering basic opinion is pointless


Well, I wouldn't be included in the club that finds sound reasoning pointless. If I can't find the reasoning in what I say, I'm not likely to hold a conviction. A part of being a good dog trainer is understanding how to communicate your conviction, to both dog and human. What I can do with my dog and what you can do with your dog has no value if you can't communicate your ideas in a logical manner. 

I'm not arguing whether punishment works or not. The answer is, of course it can. What I'm arguing is how we come to justify those punishments, and if we don't have a good reason to use punishment, why are we using it? I believe if more people sought to answer this question of themselves they'd find their dogs easier to train. This has been my experience with every dog I now encounter. And if explaining my position does little to dissuade your opinion, yet helps another dog owner to better communicate with their dog, who am I to call this exercise pointless? Perhaps by better understanding how dogs learn we can teach others how to minimize punishments in their training. This would be a goal, would it not? This thread doesn't have to be about spanking dogs. It can be about how we didn't impose 'human' on our dogs and treated them with a respect deserving of a dog. Being treated like a dog shouldn't own a negative connotation.


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## AnimalLuvr

I usely spank my dog but if there is a good reason to I will. (but not very hard)


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## French Ring

cshellenberger said:


> If a dog does something wrong, you should spank the one responsible, YOU!!!!


 Yeah, totally agree... 

Do you want to know why? You were the one who left it unsupervised. Owners should be the one who get punished.


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## wyopets

Curbside Prophet said:


> I've been owned by two Bassett Hounds, so I know them a bit.  And I can recall a reoccurring event where a neighbor's cat would daily enter my dog's yard to lick the food crust off his bowl, and almost daily my dog chased him off. The cat never got away with much, but you could often find him hanging out on the fence at meal time patiently waiting for an opportunity. IMO the cat enjoyed teasing my dog, and to be frank I enjoyed watching him do it. I can recall another instance where my dog had pinned this same cat in a corner. My dog looked at me as if to suggest _what do I do now? _


_

Well just take my word for it then...my dog was on the warpath, baying at the top of his lungs and ripping into the recliner trying to get to the cat (he once chewed through the bottom half of five feet of PVC pipe before I could stop him when he was trying to get to a rabbit); we left the cat alone for a while and then a close family friend tried to coax him out and got his finger bit to the bone and had to go to the emergency room...he was NOT enjoying himself. As I said, this is a fully-trained and active coonhound, if he gets something into a corner he is not at a loss of what to do with it and it has very little chance of living after that.

Hehe...no, bull-headed doesn't mean there's something I don't like about the dog, as I said (and you quoted), that's one of the reasons I love them so much _


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## reevz

I'm no expert, but I kinda liken it to the way that Caesar Milan corrects dogs. He doesn't spank, but he does touch them in a way that startles them, gets them to stop doing what they're doing wrong. I think anyone who considers "spanking" a useful way to teach their dog, perhaps it's actually more contact than the dog needs, though I suppose it's still getting the message across. I think spanking, though, tends to come from an angry place, whereas the type of touch-nudge that Caesar preaches comes from a calm, teaching angle.


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## 8

Boxer & Co. said:


> When I was little my parents would spank our dogs if they did something to teach them. I have recently gotten a puppy and have started reading alot of training books. Now the books say that spanking does not work but my old dogs seemed to learn just fine with spankings. I have not tried this approach with my puppy because I think I can train without spanking. I do spank my children to correct them, and I kind of feel bad that they get spankings and the dog doesn't. Thats just me though. Dogs are not smart like people are and my children know that I spank out of love not anger. I don't think a dog can understand that. My question is .... I was wondering if anyone else has spanked their dog before and how they felt about it? I'm am not trying to get a debate going here, I just want to see what others are doing for their training. Thank you.


Thats because your dogs learned to fear your parents.

My friends father knew nothing about dogs and they had got this dog (he was 7 months old and the people they bought him from obviously abused him) well when he would do something bad her dad would take a newspaper to him and once I think he took a belt to him. I was so appauled but that dog feared him, the worse part is that dog was agressive to begin with. Eventually that dog was given up but then he became someone elses problem. They didn't want to take the time to fix his problems


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## blunder

To start with there are more than one kind of "spanking"
It's pointless to spank a dog unless it knows what the spanking is for, so the time frame for a spanking is about 0.5 seconds from the time of the offense. The timing is so critical that most people, most of the time, are better off taking a different approach. Effectiveness is more of an issue than right or wrong. 
Spanking can also be used as a distraction, ever hear of "stick fetch"? Take my word for it, stick fetch has nothing to do with fetching a stick.
A swat on the fanny can often be used as a sign of affection (best to check in with the dog to make sure it is perceived as such tho')
Is a swat on the butt, a tap with a stick, a pop of a lead, or a zap with a collar any different from the rest? TEACH, DON'T PUNISH


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## wvasko

I really don't know what spanking entails but I'm going to substitute the words hit/punch/kick. I have had too many headshy/handshy dogs to train that were worked over by young adults. The worst part is most were young dogs.


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## Dieselsmama

wvasko said:


> I really don't know what spanking entails but I'm going to substitute the words hit/punch/kick. I have had too many headshy/handshy dogs to train that were worked over by young adults. The worst part is most were young dogs.


agreed, very sad Wvasko


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## starry15

I've spanked my dog once. Which was to teach him to not bite. When he was a puppy he bit me once and he got a spanking on his behind. Not from me, from my mother. I was only five at the time. Least I am being honest with y'all. When I took over the training once I got older, I didn't use the spanking training method like my mom did. Found out he listened better without the spanking or threating. From then on, I made sure I always was around star instead of my mom. She still spanks me sometimes. 

Dogs listen better without a spanking and I wouldnt spank my dog at all! Makes them afraid of you!


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## Mondo

I swatted Mondo yesterday with a glove he was chewing on. As soon as i got it away from him he grabbed my shoe so i swatted him with the glove and said no. He didn't chew on anything the rest of the time i was awake, not sure if it lasted the rest of the day for my wife.

I felt bad for doing it afterwards but i was frustrated with him for not listening to me.


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## Canadian Dog

Mondo said:


> I felt bad for doing it afterwards but i was frustrated with him for not listening to me.


Your frustration should not be taken out on your dog.


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## poptart

spanking a dog, like you would a child, is useless. Dog's are not your kids. You are just hitting hitting a puppy for being a puppy. There are many other ways that dog's do respond to.


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## AlPhA::BrAdY

we spank our dog every once in a while when he doesn't do as he is told...i used to spank my other dogs and they just learned to do things on their own but if i called them that was it--they knew who was boss.

with brady...my boyfriend has spanked him more than I have b/c at first i wasn't up for the idea thinking he was still a puppy to expect a few screw ups n he'd learn...but lately he's been thinking he can just walk all over people and do as he pleases and i got fed up one day n was like ok lets see if the spanking works...TADA! it did...

reading what i have read from previous responses it seems as if a few people are linking spanking with abuse...look i was hit as a child and thank god i was-i don't know how or what i'd be like if i hadn't been. granted dogs are not humans they still have the capacity to learn and that is what is being talked about. a quick spanking isn't going to kill the dog.


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## RonE

I guess it took some courage to resurrect this old thread and post an unpopular point of view.

From a strictly pragmatic point of view, I have a dog who could hurt me if she chose to, but she does not. As the "superior" intelligence, I think I should exercise the same restraint.


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## Erick Aguilar

The only time i ''spank'' my dog (most likely bump his butt with my hand) is when he tries to hump something or someone, accompanied with a sharp NO and OFF.

He hasn't done it in months even though he isn't neutered yet.


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## poodleholic

RonE said:


> I guess it took some courage to resurrect this old thread and post an unpopular point of view.
> 
> From a strictly pragmatic point of view, I have a dog who could hurt me if she chose to, but she does not. As the "superior" intelligence, I think I should exercise the same restraint.


Hear hear. IMO anyone who strikes a dog is a coward, and should not have a dog. Violence is all about one thing: power and control. I cannot imagine ever hitting one of my dogs; the very thought is as foreign as striking a human infant. Individually, my dogs could hurt me easily, collectively I'd really be in trouble. I'm certainly not worried; I've earned their trust and respect. You don't get that through force and punishment.


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## BoxMeIn21

poodleholic said:


> Hear hear. IMO anyone who strikes a dog is a coward, and should not have a dog. Violence is all about one thing: power and control. I cannot imagine ever hitting one of my dogs; the very thought is as foreign as striking a human infant. Individually, my dogs could hurt me easily, collectively I'd really be in trouble. I'm certainly not worried; I've earned their trust and respect. You don't get that through force and punishment.


I totally agree.


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## Renoman

poodleholic said:


> Hear hear. IMO anyone who strikes a dog is a coward, and should not have a dog. Violence is all about one thing: power and control. I cannot imagine ever hitting one of my dogs; the very thought is as foreign as striking a human infant. Individually, my dogs could hurt me easily, collectively I'd really be in trouble. I'm certainly not worried; I've earned their trust and respect. You don't get that through force and punishment.


I absolutely agree.

I want their trust and respect. I do not want to control through fear and intimidation.


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## Allie3985

I have spanked my dog two times. Once when she was chasing a toad into a bonfire. The toad actually jumped into the fire and Pickles was about to follow suite! She was running full speed at the fire and I freaked and screamed "Pickles stop!" and whacked her on the butt. It scared the CRAP out of her and she did not come near the fire the rest of the night and kept coming up to me with her head hanging as if to say she was sorry. I felt terrible but I suppose I would have felt worse if she would have been burned.

I have also spanked Merry once when she was getting in a dog fight. This is very stupid. . .but I got lucky and it worked. 

Both times that I spanked it was out of panic. I don't know if I regret doing it because I prevented worse injuries but I do wish that I would have 
a) had a better recall with Pickles to call her off or had been watching her closer to see this coming
b) known the "finger in the butt" trick, or again seen the warning signs from the other dog and not let Merry near him
c) no more dog park for me, you live and learn. I will react better the next time I'm in the situations.


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## rosemaryninja

Allie3985 said:


> b) known the "finger in the butt" trick, or again seen the warning signs from the other dog and not let Merry near him


I am not familiar with this trick. Perhaps that is a good thing.


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## wvasko

Well don't beat yourself up too bad as the fire thing would be very scary and the very fact you're writing about it shows you will adjust your dog program as needed and that's what it's all about. If I were about to jump in a fire and your swat on the butt stopped me, I would be thanking you profusely.


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## rosborn

I would never spank a dog ... I freaked when a pesty lady 'Judy' smacked my lab Nika with a frisbee ... Just now getting Nika to like the frisbee again!!! I would be afraid she would be scared of my hand .... I had a 17 year golden retriever (RIP) and my 12 year old lab/collie mix and I never spanked them .... and they turned out just fine!!!


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## marsha=whitie

I don't believe in _spanking_, but I do believe in some type of physical punishment (not beating). When Susie chased a car down the driveway, and I yelled at her, she didn't stop. I had to chase her down. When I caught her, she refused to walk, so I drug her til she decided to cooperate. She was tied up for 2 days, and she hasn't chased a car since. Sometimes you have to get rough, but not to the beating point. 

When Callie was a pup, she would bite. Anytime she did so, I'd yelp and ignore her, but she just wouldn't stop. So, one day I kinda went off; she bit me, I grabbed her by her neck hair and collar, flipped her over and growled(call me wierd, idc). I held her there til she stopped squirming and biting. It work; she hasn't bitten me since, unless we're rough-housing and its ok. That's actually why I named her Callisto Kaida: "My most Beautiful Little Dragon." lol


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## Regi

I would never put anyone down for what they might do to their dog but for me I couldnt ever hit my babies in any way.. I have 4 babies and well first two of my dogs are so small that if I spanked them they would die they are little teacups.. then my other 2 are toy sized dogs but I cant ever smack my dogs I love them too much,,I am so crazy about them they are my life..


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## LeRoymydog

Honestly, I remember when LeRoy wouldn't just get the hang of potty training. I was sooo frustrated, that I spanked him when he did it. I was so beside myself with guilt that I have never done it again. I think I hurt my feelings more than I hurt LeRoys bum.


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## dogowner3118

My 10 month old dog understands "Down!" When she jumps on my bed I say "Down!" she listens. She jumps on the couch, I say "Down!" she listens. When she's at the top of the stairs, I say "Go Down!" she listens. When my three year old daughter is on the couch and the dog jumps up and sits on her, I say "Down!" she does NOT listen. It's the only time she refuses to get down. So yes, I swat her on the butt, and she gets down. It's getting to the point that when she does that and I say "Down!" she won't move, but when I start walking towards her IN THIS SITUATION ONLY she'll get down. We are in obedience class so I might learn a different effective method to get her off of my child. But, until then I will swat her on her haunches when this happens. She is not afraid of me. She is literally at my feet wherever I go in the house. We play and cuddle and have a good time together. But I don't mind one bit that she starts running when she's me coming as she sits on top of my little girl.


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## BoxMeIn21

dogowner3118 said:


> My 10 month old dog understands "Down!" When she jumps on my bed I say "Down!" she listens. She jumps on the couch, I say "Down!" she listens. When she's at the top of the stairs, I say "Go Down!" she listens. When my three year old daughter is on the couch and the dog jumps up and sits on her, I say "Down!" she does NOT listen. It's the only time she refuses to get down. So yes, I swat her on the butt, and she gets down. It's getting to the point that when she does that and I say "Down!" she won't move, but when I start walking towards her IN THIS SITUATION ONLY she'll get down. We are in obedience class so I might learn a different effective method to get her off of my child. But, until then I will swat her on her haunches when this happens. She is not afraid of me. She is literally at my feet wherever I go in the house. We play and cuddle and have a good time together. But I don't mind one bit that she starts running when she's me coming as she sits on top of my little girl.


Quit hitting your dog and find another method to get her off the couch. Getting physical with your pooch is doing nothing for your relationship - in the end you run the risk of her fearing you and that's never a good thing.


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## dogowner3118

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Quit hitting your dog and find another method to get her off the couch. Getting physical with your pooch is doing nothing for your relationship - in the end you run the risk of her fearing you and that's never a good thing.


That's your opinion and I absolutely will not substitute it for my own, nor should others.


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## annielvsfurpeople

Brand new here, so, please be patient with me. I was just wondering if we really need to hit anything? Furry or otherwise? Yes, I have had dogs and children and never really liked the whole hitting thing. I would prefer collars (choke and bite) on the dogs and words on the kids.


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## BoxMeIn21

dogowner3118 said:


> That's your opinion and I absolutely will not substitute it for my own, nor should others.


I don't care if you think it's my opinion or not. Ask your trainer for other methods rather than hitting your dog. Getting physical with your dog is a great way to get yourself bitten.

Use your brain, not brawn.


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## Curbside Prophet

annielvsfurpeople said:


> Brand new here, so, please be patient with me. I was just wondering if we really need to hit anything? Furry or otherwise?


It's never necessary unless safety is a concern.


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## wvasko

BoxMeIn21 said:


> I don't care if you think it's my opinion or not. Ask your trainer for other methods rather than hitting your dog. Getting physical with your dog is a great way to get yourself bitten.
> 
> Use your brain, not brawn.


Box
The nerve of you trying to add common sense on a DF thread, shame on you. You know you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. 3118 has got the right to beat up on anything that will let her/him. 

3118 
If you got to swat dog, a hand or a rolled up newspaper can cause damage to your dog. Go pick up a plastic flyswatter, at least you won't get bit and it's light enough not to hurt dog. I would hope you would find an alternative to hitting but my experience with people tells me it's probably not going to happen.


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## BoxMeIn21

wvasko said:


> Box
> The nerve of you trying to add common sense on a DF thread, shame on you. You know you can lead a horse to water but can't make it drink. 3118 has got the right to beat up on anything that will let her/him.


Silly me.  I just don't know what I was thinking. I heart you.


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## KBLover

If using body language and voice/eyes to correct is spanking, then sure 

Literally hitting his butt punitively? No. His butt is there for him to sit on and me to scratch and make him go crazy


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## petra'smom

When I got my first puppy, my breeder told me that every now and then ''spanking'' him with a newspaper was a good way to discipline my puppy. I did it a couple of times when my pup was chewing on something he was not supposed to and saying ''no''. For some reason, I never had that newspaper handy when I needed it, so I started using only my voice and it worked much better.

Today I only use my voice to discipline, it is much more effective.

I truly believe that hurting a dog or making it fearful, will cause someday the dog to fight back. My neighbor used to spank her dog and one day she said it beared her teeth at her and growled.


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## Jessieanne

I spank my pup just as if I were to spank my two children. I dont beat neither my children or my pup. Just a little swat on the butt. I dont feel there is anything wrong with that. As a matter of fact I spanked Jackson (my pup) this morning because he was biting my son. Play biting but I still do not allow it with the children. After I spanked him he stoped what he was doing ran like a nut case and came back as if I did nothing to him. I think it depends on the dog weather or not u should spank them. If you have a dog that will cower from your hand than no you shouldn't even think of spanking!


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## BoxMeIn21

Jessieanne said:


> I spank my pup just as if I were to spank my two children. I dont beat neither my children or my pup. Just a little swat on the butt. I dont feel there is anything wrong with that. As a matter of fact I spanked Jackson (my pup) this morning because he was biting my son. Play biting but I still do not allow it with the children. After I spanked him he stoped what he was doing ran like a nut case and came back as if I did nothing to him. I think it depends on the dog weather or not u should spank them. If you have a dog that will cower from your hand than no you shouldn't even think of spanking!


No, it does not depend on the dog. It's up to the human whether or not they choose more modern, humane and _effective_ ways of showing the dog the proper way to behave. Again, use your brain, not brawn. The more you get physical with your dog the more damage you do to your relationship...But there I go again with the logic. wvasko is going to alpha roll me for sure...


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## wvasko

BoxMeIn21 said:


> No, it does not depend on the dog. It's up to the human whether or not they choose more modern, humane and _effective_ ways of showing the dog the proper way to behave. Again, use your brain, not brawn. The more you get physical with your dog the more damage you do to your relationship...But there I go again with the logic. wvasko is going to alpha roll me for sure...


Be careful, Alpha rolls occur when least expected on DF and in real life.


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## Jacafamala

As a kid, I watched my mother house train our dogs by sticking their nose in the poop and givng a light spanking and a "no". But she didn't have the internet and access to the kind of dog training info that's out there these days. Mom didn't have things like neutralizer sprays, or even crates. This forum is a great resource for dog owners. I'm glad I found y'all. I'm learning a lot here.........


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## TxRider

Boxer & Co. said:


> When I was little my parents would spank our dogs if they did something to teach them. I have recently gotten a puppy and have started reading alot of training books. Now the books say that spanking does not work but my old dogs seemed to learn just fine with spankings. I have not tried this approach with my puppy because I think I can train without spanking. I do spank my children to correct them, and I kind of feel bad that they get spankings and the dog doesn't. Thats just me though. Dogs are not smart like people are and my children know that I spank out of love not anger. I don't think a dog can understand that. My question is .... I was wondering if anyone else has spanked their dog before and how they felt about it? I'm am not trying to get a debate going here, I just want to see what others are doing for their training. Thank you.


I would advise against it, though as long as your not really hurting the dog, and you are 100% sure in timing that the dog knows what it was for it's a really not that bad of a thing.

Say I catch the dog with it's head in the trash can, that could be a spanking that the dog would understand if it was short and done "in the act" so to speak. The dog would get why I lashed out.

Coming home to a steamy pile on the floor, is not. The dog will just think your cruel and that you lash out with violence unpredictably. They will very seldom be able to connect an action they did hours ago to a correction hours later. Though some actually can it's not the norm.

Also depends on the dog, my current dog will never be struck in any way at any time, it would ruin her. A simple sound correct her as much as a spank. So it depends on the dog as well.

Best to learn how to teach a dog manners without it though.


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## Cesare Borgia

Raising a hand to my dogs is NEVER allowed, i had a friends who had his little dog terrified all the time because of that. She would never come up to him in a happy manner and always had her tail tucked between her legs. It was a cycle with him and his dog and no matter what i told him he couldn't grasp the idea that she would pee in the house out of fear BECAUSE of what he was doing, she would do something he did not like, he would hit her, she would pee, he would hit her again, she would lose bowl control and he would get even more angry.

After a while it got to the point that she would his under the sofa whenever she seen him and one day she bit the hell out of him out of fear when he reached under the couch to retrieve her.

After a while i finally talked him into giving her to someone who could handle her better, now she lives with a friend of his wife and is doing great with her other dog, she seemed sooooo happy the first day and immediately took a liking to the woman and her wiener dog.

Bottom line is, if you want a dog that cowers and is afraid all the time, spanking your dog will do just that.


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## poundpup

Okay, I know this thread is several years old, but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in FWIW. 

I will never, ever hit my dog. It probably works in terms of getting a desired behavior, but other ways also work (yes there are ALWAYS other ways), so I choose to not hit, use my voice, expression, posture, and consequences to teach my dog.

I also have to respond to what Alpha said a couple years ago. He said that when the dog is doing something bad, you tap the dog lightly, and when the dog looks at you and connects with you, you say NO!

This only teaches the dog that it is punished for looking at you and connecting with you! At the moment in which you say no, the dog is not behaving undesirably; it had just turned around to look at you. Connecting with you should be rewarded, NOT punished! 

I am new to these forums but have had extensive experience training dogs, including working dogs. It is no coincidence that most service dog organizations do not allow any form of physical correction (and this includes leash corrections). Their entire training is based on rewards and consequences, and respect for the human.


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## Indy

I don't think I could bring myself to spank our puppy. First because some of her behavior leads me to believe she may have been abused before we adopted her (fear of rolled up newspaper, for example). Second because a stern NO seems to be more effective anyway. I caught her in the act of destroying my shoe and gave a top of my voice no, grabbed the chewed up shoe and said no again. I took the pieces and left the room for about 3-5 minutes. When I came back, that dog looked so sad- she had been sulking the whole time. If that dog could talk she would have been saying- "i'm sooooo soooorrrry. pleeeeeeze forgive me." She sat at my feet and put her paw up to get my attention... until I melted and pet her.


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## sparkle

Although dogs use aversives to communicate boundaries they usually warn first then usually give one or two quick bites/grips usually in the neck/muzzle area. Sometimes NOT depending on the circumstances. 

Should one choose to use physical corrections regardless of other options available (whicj also may or may not work) SPANKING a dog falls wayoutside of this form of natural communication especially with a PUP. Even when using physical aversives on older dogs timing,clarity,fareness,threshold level,verbals,type of delivery,presence, ect and other elements are crucial in keeping backlash behaviors to a min.

At the very least I believe SPANKING ANY DOG will result in the dog learning to interact with you mostly in fear and a relationship based on a lot of or the wrong kind of fear is not good for anyone. Although I believe respect and even trust can be gained (with both humans and dogs) with certain uses of physical corrections and fear (I have experienced in training herding dogs to work some nasty rams and mama bulls) ...it requires a skilled hand in the delivery and in what the dog experiences.
Though some may disagree obviously.

SPANKING a dog in my opinion especially a PUP would never reach this reality in gaining any benefit in the relationship regardless of the fact that they can forgive you.

just my 2 cents worth.


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## TheDoggyGuru

The spanking issue is an interesting one. Many people say it produces results. Others say it has no effect. Well, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. The fact is, spanking your dog DOES have an effect. You leave you socks laying around, and your dog chews them up, you get angry. You walk over, and spank the dog on the muzzle or on the flank, and he will run away. Reaction. Effect. He may even think twice about chewing up another pair. Again, effect. However, WHY does he think twice? The problem itself, the chewing of the socks, is not the problem. There is something causing him to want to chew up your socks. A spank makes him not want to chew those socks anymore. However, that pillow looks like it would do the trick. All you are doing by spanking the dog is scaring him. It is not always easy for dogs to make connections. "Oh, I got hit because I chewed this!! Got'cha." Most times they just think "OWW!!! That hurt!" and don't see that the action they got hit for was bad. Same with dogs pooping or peeing in the house. Old school training meant sticking their nose in it. However, they don't think "Oh, I get it. I am not soppused to do this here." More then likely, they just think "Ewww, this stinks!!" So, spanking will definitely get you a result, an immediate, result, but in the long run, it more then likely will not fix the problem. I wouldn't recommend spanking your dog. In the wild, wolves don't spank each other as corrections. Grunts. Looks. Things along that nature. And in the wild, animals do use negative reinforcement. However, that is not exactly the same as hitting. Your dog is chewing on your sock, you come up and poke him lightly in the back leg to get his atention away from the sock and on you, that was negative reinforcement. It was not spanking.


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## deege39

I'd like to just bring up...

Why give "spankings" when there other "non-violent" ways to punish or "correct" your dog's behavior?

I've had several dogs before, and puppies, and I was trained the semi-old-school way... _Never hit them with your hand... Use a newspaper..._ Well, now, even that training method is old-school to me, especially after owning Donatello who is a "fearful" dog and _should never_ receive physical punishment. Ever.


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## TheDoggyGuru

deege39 said:


> I'd like to just bring up...
> 
> Why give "spankings" when there other "non-violent" ways to punish or "correct" your dog's behavior?
> 
> I've had several dogs before, and puppies, and I was trained the semi-old-school way... _Never hit them with your hand... Use a newspaper..._ Well, now, even that training method is old-school to me, especially after owning Donatello who is a "fearful" dog and _should never_ receive physical punishment. Ever.


Define physical punishment? I ask because taking the dog off your lap and onto the floor if you don't want him there is a form of physical punishment, yet not physically harmful. Words sometimes messes up our meanings and techniques. LOL.


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## deege39

I should have specified... Physical as in "violent-in-any-way". I'm not against grabbing the collar and leading to another room... But I do not grab the collar, shake, choke, lift, or anything...


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## Michiyo-Fir

My grandmother still spanks dogs. Both our family's Cavalier Truffles and our family Chihuahua have been spanked before. They don't cower in fear or attack in anger. But it's not hard spanks, just a tap on the bum.

Popcorn has learned that when he's done something bad, my grandma will probably spank him so now after he does something bad and my grandmother is approaching. He sits there without running away and squeals and shrieks like a banshee. It makes everyone think my grandma's doing something terrible to him! But he is the most badly behaved dog in the history of dogs. He bites people's legs, scratches at them, chews their toes, pees in the house, jumps all over people and scratches their face if they're lying in bed, will sometimes growl and snarl if someone touches him that he doesn't know, always bullies our Cavalier and sometimes even draws a little blood, humps, refuses to walk on cement, etc. Yet my aunt refuses to let him be disciplined because he's small and young (he's 5.5 months old). My grandma is allowed to hit him on the bum only because they're living in her house and he keeps peeing in it.

Our neighbor still hits her dog and the dog's reaction is to look sorry and lay there to be spanked. But of course, she doesn't really hit hard either. She does it to him usually when he becomes quite rough playing with the little ones. He's quite aggressive sometimes when puppies keep biting him and annoying him.


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## sparkle

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Popcorn has learned that when he's done something bad, my grandma will probably spank him so now after he does something bad and my grandmother is approaching. .


May I ask if this (the spanking as you refer to it) serves to act as true correction to condition the dog not to do it again (whatever it does) or does the dog end up just up repeating the undesired behavior and is *spanked* again? Are you saying that if the dogs where truely disciplined by a real spanking (however hard that would be) that they would not act that way?


IS there any value in using a process like the one you describe that does not address the undesired behavior and results in endless administration of aversives and bad behavior? The way I read what you are saying is that whatever it is that the dog is experiencing it is discomforting and stressful but not enough to teach the dog not to get more of the same. Is this correct? Do you feel this makes for a good relationship if so?


just curious??????


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## Michiyo-Fir

sparkle said:


> May I ask if this (the spanking as you refer to it) serves to act as true correction to condition the dog not to do it again (whatever it does) or does the dog repeat the bahavior and is *spanked* again?
> 
> 
> IS there any value in using a process like the one you describe that does not address the undesired behavior and results in endless administration of aversives? Do you feel this makes for a good relationship?
> 
> 
> just curious??????


Well it took a few spanks. For example, he used to tear up every single bit of paper he could get his hands on including receipts, homework, paperwork, letters, etc. He was spanked maybe 5 or 6 times and he stopped doing it.

I think spanking is similar to the methods Cesar Milan uses which I think are a little too rough. I actually think spanking is a little lighter than Cesar's harsh kick or poke or whatever you call what he does. I don't personally like it because it's quite negative for the dog. The most I will do is firmly tell the dog no or stop it and my dog responds well to that. But some dogs are very confident and they do not respond very much to a 'no' at all. Popcorn is one of these dogs. You can tell him no and stop it and bad dog while he's doing it and he just looks happily at you and continues to do it. What would you do in such a situation to stop the behavior?

I don't think it necessarily creates a bad relationship because I've seen dogs do it to each other too. For example I've seen very rowdy and hyper younger dogs (6months old) run up to some older ones being extremely excited and jumping all over them which ends with a nip from the older dog to tell the younger to stop it and it's not good behavior. Heck, it was even done to my dog once. She got a big slobbery bite/warning from a big lab. But after a few minutes she went back to playing with him and everything was fine. I think if dogs can correct each other like that, why can't humans? I think the dogs understand that it means stop it I don't like what you're doing as a warning and they don't really fear the humans after. Well not unless you hit them hard and violently...a tap isn't too bad.


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## sparkle

I am not sure about the point you are making in comparing what CM does so are you saying that some dogs need a proper spanking (whatever method you like) to make them behave because anything less will not work? In addition are you saying that you believe ( you do not like negatives or in this case positive punishment) a dog should not experience anything "negative"??

I am confused please help me understand???


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## SpikeB11

Like in the butt? Sometimes when I'm at the park next to my house I give my dog (55 lbs) a soft little spank on the booty just to get him going on the way home (I dont put him on a leash most of the time), but I doubt it hurts him...


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## KBLover

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I don't think it necessarily creates a bad relationship because I've seen dogs do it to each other too. For example I've seen very rowdy and hyper younger dogs (6months old) run up to some older ones being extremely excited and jumping all over them which ends with a nip from the older dog to tell the younger to stop it and it's not good behavior. Heck, it was even done to my dog once. She got a big slobbery bite/warning from a big lab. But after a few minutes she went back to playing with him and everything was fine. I think if dogs can correct each other like that, why can't humans? I think the dogs understand that it means stop it I don't like what you're doing as a warning and they don't really fear the humans after. Well not unless you hit them hard and violently...a tap isn't too bad.


I don't think I've ever seen a dog actually hit another dog. 

Nip, bite, snap, growl, body-block, "walk at" (where they stare intently and walk directly at the offending creature), yeah.

I've never seen a hit and most of those communications are non-physical and I don't think ever on the rear? Usually snap towards the face/neck/scruff? I don't think I've ever seen a dog get offended then go to bite the offender on the butt.

And yes, I think that makes a difference considering that's all dogs have to communicate with - their voices and their bodies. It wouldn't be a reach in my mind that position on the body matters. A pinch/poke to the neck might make more sense to a dog than a slap on the butt if that's the case. That's closer to the nip/bite/snap than a slap on the butt, imo.


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## Michiyo-Fir

sparkle said:


> I am not sure about the point you are making in comparing what CM does so are you saying that some dogs need a proper spanking (whatever method you like) to make them behave because anything less will not work? In addition are you saying that you believe ( you do not like negatives or in this case positive punishment) a dog should not experience anything "negative"??
> 
> I am confused please help me understand???


No. I'm not saying some dogs need to be spanked but it is one way for some people to deal with their dogs. Other ways work too, like I said I just use my voice to control my dog. I don't hit her but some people find hitting works. It's just like children really, some people say hitting is the best way to correct children, some people hate it. It's all personal opinion.



KBLover said:


> I don't think I've ever seen a dog actually hit another dog.
> 
> Nip, bite, snap, growl, body-block, "walk at" (where they stare intently and walk directly at the offending creature), yeah.
> 
> I've never seen a hit and most of those communications are non-physical and I don't think ever on the rear? Usually snap towards the face/neck/scruff? I don't think I've ever seen a dog get offended then go to bite the offender on the butt.


Oh no, I'm not saying that they bite each other's butts. I'm just saying that dogs physically discipline each other as well. My point was that sometimes humans justify physical corrections on a dog because dogs do it too. It doesn't have to be spanking, it can be jabbing on the neck, jerking the collar/lead or whatever.


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## KBLover

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Oh no, I'm not saying that they bite each other's butts. I'm just saying that dogs physically discipline each other as well. My point was that sometimes humans justify physical corrections on a dog because dogs do it too. It doesn't have to be spanking, it can be jabbing on the neck, jerking the collar/lead or whatever.


Yeah, I know - and it makes sense as long as it actually stop/corrects the behavior and won't harm the dog.

I think that's one reason why leash correction/training collars work because it's on the neck (again closer to the snap/bite/pick up by the scruff type correction). 

I just think those corrections make more sense to the dog than spanking or anything hitting. I just think the pokes/pinches come closer to the sensation they'd feel with another dog's correction so I think instinctively they'd get an idea of what you're communicating. I don't know what they'd think with a spanking. Well, Wally thinks it's play time and starts getting all active and such.


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## cbliss85

I spank my dogs. I had never had a dog growing up and the spanking just came to me. I do not beat them or anything but I spank them. It has worked wonders for me. My pitbull is VERY well trained and everyone is astonished to find that a "pitbull" can be that well mannerd and good natured was spanked by me since 8 weeks old. What is funny is that when I play with my dog I spank him and he gets all ecited and tears down the hallway running in excitement but when my voice is firm and I tell him "bad dog" and spank him it is the end of the world for him. I think it all depends on your tone of voice because my play spank is more harsh than an obedience spank yet he is horribly butt hurt after the obedience spank.


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## ipreferpi

Old thread but...

I hit my dog once, and only once, and I still feel bad about it. I was sitting in my room with the door closed with my rabbit on my lap, and the door somehow got open. My dog saw this and ran in to see what was up. He has a high prey drive, which is why I'm careful to keep the rabbit in its own room...but things happen. Anyway, he lunges at the rabbit, missed, and was snapping and whining the whole time as I tried to put bunny back in his hutch. I was so afraid the rabbit was going to have a heart attack, and so mad at my dog for behaving that way (even though rationally I know it's not his fault at all), I reached out and slapped him on the rear and told him with a terrible dog he was being.

He forgave me for it minutes after, I still feel bad though.


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## pittsabowawa

i think it all depends on the dog. bella is so hard headed that if (and this very rarely happens) she does something that merits a spanking (ie getting into the trash, chasing the cats) that a little tap doesnt hardly faze her but serves to get her attention and redirect her behavior. I prefer it to yelling which i consider worse than spanking (not beating but a gentle tap)


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## BoxMeIn21

*Edit Snarky Response*


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## txcollies

Mrs Quick said:


> wow, seriously too deep..ok really there is a big difference between spanking and a smack off the rear or a tap on the nose. Hun my puppy is 9 weeks, Lily is 3 and Dusty (the puppy, hes the same size as her ALREADY) likes to grab her ears and yank her around. She is very docile and will just cry and let him, I bop him on the nose and he looks at me like im stupid, I cant pull him off her he'll hurt her more. So I smack his heinie and guess what? He lets go..I will not alow him to bite anyone, especially not the kids or Lily. A newspaper I persionally do not like, as If your smaking teed off you can really hurt them with it, you cannot hit angry, just like with kids. IF you know you are a person who can respond and keep their cool when physically disciplining and doing the discipline right during the act..it is fine in my opinion. There is a HUGE difference in physical discipline and spanking or animal abuse. Especially with a a stubborn dog like our baby boy Dusty. We also use the same tactics his mama would use, littermates would use and to show him dominance as a dominant woudl in his pack. But if hes hurting someone or another animal and NOT responding, heck yes I will smack him off his butt. Why the other day he attacked, literally, attacked Lily for her food and went after David for stopping him and bit his arm. If we mess around that and he ends up the size of a shepherd and allowed ot act that way..he would end up another senslessy lost dog because we were afraid to assert dominance. Please lets keep in mind the difference between abuse and proper physical punishment or lack thereof.


You make some very good points. I've had to smack/poke my dogs before - and it didn't hurt or upset them. I save it for when I have to redirect, and sometimes a yell won't do the trick at all. 

There is a difference between a smack, poke or pop, vs a spanking or beating. 

My energetic young male and I have a game of "play smack" that we play often - it's really just very energetic patting, but he adores it.


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## Curbside Prophet

Mrs Quick said:


> There is a HUGE difference in physical discipline and spanking or animal abuse.


And there's a huge difference between using one's brain and one's brawn. Some of us are better equipped with brain and don't need to define how we're being physical to justify it's use.


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## Cracker

OH my...what a thread..old or not.

I have a few things to say, take them as you will.

Dogs that learn hands are dangerous are an enemy to children, vets and groomers.

Teaching your dog NOT to do something is not the same as teaching your dog to do SOMETHING ELSE more appropriate. 

Physical correction in an emergency is NOT a bad thing, it is management. Then you teach the dog HOW to do something else. Dog jumps? Teach it to sit. Dog won't get off the couch, teach it OFF using rewards. 

Dogs do what works. Give em a better option.

If you have a puppy and small children then use management to contain the puppy when the kids are playing and keep a leash on them and an EYE on them at all times..(this includes teaching your children proper dogsmarts). Puppies see kids as playthings and as littermates it is up to the adults to ensure no one is injured, including the puppy. Kids get hurt because adults make stupid decisions and then the dog pays for it. That is just wrong.

There is no need to punish a dog for behaviours that come naturally (that includes housebreaking, chewing, jumping, nipping, running off etc)...what you do is train the dang dog. Using spanking is simple laziness and lack of training knowledge. Ignorance of proper learning and training methods is not an excuse.


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## wvasko

I like a plastic flyswatter if I'm going to hit a dog for anything, I'm not into pup hitting at all. 

I was 18 yrs old and in an obedience class in Chicago and the trainer who I will never forget called me to the front of the class. We were discussing the use of the newspaper rolled up routine. At that time in my life I was arrogant know-it-all and was pro newspaper roll. Long story short, he rolled up a newspaper and popped me on the the forehead. Those were old school days and an aversive was allowed on loudmouths. I never used a newspaper for anything but reading since then.

I never forgot the trainer or the lesson taught that day. Little did I know that someday I was going to be a dog trainer and this little lesson was shaping me. 

Just some useless trivia.


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## Foyerhawk

I have a six month old crawling, sitting up, ear and tail grabbing human baby and a four month old German Shepherd puppy. I don't and would not ever hit either of them. It's called management  Yes I would scruff a dog in a dire situation, and I have. But with proper raising, good breeding, and correct training and management, most such situations can be avoided. 

I have startled a dog with a loud hand clap or a poke with my finger when catching them doing something naughty, but it's a tactic I haven't used in a long time. 

I have used collar corrections in extremely obnoxious (usually rescues who had no training in puppyhood) dogs, where due to physical limitations of myself or the handler, stop and go methods were not practical because we could not tolerate being pulled on at all. 

Before I knew better, like other posters, I used physical corrections. I'm so very happy that I do know better. I don't think it's ever okay to hit kids and I would only hit a dog at this point if it was an act of defending myself, my child, my own dogs, or another person or helpless animal, or if it was an instant reaction to save the dog himself from doing something that could hurt him. 

Pushing a begging dog's nose gently off your plate and saying, "No- go lie down" is not spanking or hitting. However, whether you call it hitting or not, striking your dog with force is definitely hitting to me, and not acceptable unless safety is an issue.


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## tirluc

Curbside Prophet said:


> And there's a huge difference between using one's brain and one's brawn. Some of us are better equipped with brain and don't need to define how we're being physical to justify it's use.


does that mean, Curbside, that you don't feel you have to justify the physical use you use on your dogs? you'll give them that swat if you feel it's warranted and there's no reason to explain it to others? just wondering

i have no qualms of using a swat to get my dogs attention, i have even gently tapped them on the nose w/ the leash at times to get them to remember i'm there....i have yet to have the dog that was/is afraid of my hands, the leash, the newspaper, or whatever else i have used to get their attention w/.....these swats that they get probably wouldn't hurt a fly, so i doubt if they really sustain any hurt to the dog.....

on top of that, i play ruffer w/ my dogs than i swat them....and it is never used for training purposes (no hitting while potty training, teaching to not chew, etc)


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## Cracker

Mrs Quick said:


> e had to give up one dog because of that fact already, *she decided since she had no dominance she was dominant and was going after the kids and David and I because of it.* But as most do, many want to humanize dogs. They are not humans, they are dogs and think differently. *I wil not con or buy off our kids or our dogs. I want him to learn he cannot have people food, not will give it to you if you listen to me. I want him to learn not to bite the hand that feeds him.* We would never abuse our animals, they get vet care and are spoiled to death along with the rest of our zoo. *But they will know their place, period. *A dog that is not in thei place is a dangerous dog, especially with kids.


Wow. 
The dominance word is so misused and misinterpreted. By the way, 90 percent of aggression is based in fear, not dominance. Dominance/alpha theory has been rethought in the last fifteen years but many trainers are still in the dark ages. To bad for the dogs.

My dog is not conned or bought off to be behaved she is TRAINED and REWARDED for good behaviour when it occurs. Leadership is not about power nor control, though you couldn't tell that from your post. She also knows her place. Beside me..not under me. I'm still the leader, the captain, but she is part of the team.

You say you wanted a nice conversation yet you came in here and showed complete misrepresentation of what positive training is by insulting it as bribery or anthropomorphism. Your ignorance is showing.


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## Foyerhawk

It's pretty simple, really. Dogs do what works- the work either for a reward, or for avoiding a correction. You get a more sparkling, happy performance from a dog working for a reward. Dog's don't understand people food is not for dogs. They understand they get hit or shouted at if they approach at human meal times, or they learn they get rewarded if they lie down.

My dogs eat my food (with permission) and sleep in my bed. Yet they do know their places. Never have had a dog of mine challenge me. I have very confident dog handling skills. It's trust and reading a dog and communication- not dominance.


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## Cracker

Mrs. Quick, 
Ignorance is a lack of information, not a judgement. It is very likely that if you use the terms "dominance" in a training conversation that the vets you spoke to and the "trainers" and behaviorists you used were using outmoded and oldfashioned training methods. In fact, I would hazard a guess that your behaviourists were neither certified nor formally educated in learning theory or ethology. Vets are OFTEN but not always a terrible source of behaviour information..they do not do much behaviour education in vet school. It is difficult as there is so much conflicting information out there. 

My biggest concern with advocating corrections or physical punishment in a forum such as this is that the RISKS are much higher...and it is important to give information to others with issues that reduces the risk of injury to both human and dog. 

There is a basic misunderstanding about reward based training and, like any other form of training it can be done incorrectly. Any training method done incorrectly will mean no improvement in the situation. Not timing rewards (or corrections) correctly results in no learning (or the wrong learning), not weaning off the rewards correctly, using them in the wrong situations etc will all result in a lack of learning and a true frustration from both the human and the animal. If it didn't work with the dog you had it is very possible there was training error, genetic issues etc. 

I work with aggressive dogs. I work with fearful dogs. I have also worked classic cases of handler based aggression and all were dealt with using NILIF and positive reinforcement based training with good results. It is a matter of education and experience...

You love your dogs. I see that. You wouldnt' be here if you didn't. Rules and boundaries have to be taught. It's the form of the teaching that I have issue with. Punishment works, if done correctly...but it also has much more possibility of fallout when done wrong...and MOST people I have seen do not have the timing, patience or skill to use corrections efficiently.


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## Curbside Prophet

tirluc said:


> does that mean, Curbside, that you don't feel you have to justify the physical use you use on your dogs?


I don’t use physical punishments on my dog or any other…they aren’t necessary in the training I do, and they aren’t necessary for the thousands of dogs I’ve met. I feel sorry for those who have to deduce so quickly to being physical…I haven’t met that dog that needed me to be physical with him, in order for me to modify his problem behavior. My brain is more effective than my brawn - Yay me! Apparently this is insulting to some – boo them!











> you'll give them that swat if you feel it's warranted and there's no reason to explain it to others?


Justifying physical aversion IS absolute; however, doing so because it ‘seems’ to cause no harm is ignorant, and does little to demonstrate a humanity. Its effect should be notable, desirable, quantifiable and quickly eliminated to be humane and effective. Otherwise, it’s simply an example of the handler’s ineptness and understanding of basic learning principles. 



> i have no qualms of using a swat to get my dogs attention, i have even gently tapped them on the nose w/ the leash at times to get them to remember i'm there....i have yet to have the dog that was/is afraid of my hands, the leash, the newspaper, or whatever else i have used to get their attention w/.....these swats that they get probably wouldn't hurt a fly, so i doubt if they really sustain any hurt to the dog.....


I’ve met all kinds of dogs…some I could have hit with a 2x4 and they would have shaken it off and walked away, and some that my mere presence was aversive. It would be ridiculous to suggest how I train my dog would be the best way to approach either of these dogs. It is not, however, ridiculous to approach all these dogs in the same way and progress from humane/effective to less humane/effective in a way that demonstrates what each individual dog needs. Then there are those owners who prefer to skip all that and use some lame excuse to be physical. 

The question “do you spank your dog” is a yes or no question...and too simplistic. Whether I do or not, *I* don’t want to, and whether I need to or not, *I* really don’t need to. Why some people want to and need to justify it is just down right bizarre. I don’t keep a dog to spank or startle, do you? 



> on top of that, i play ruffer w/ my dogs than i swat them....and it is never used for training purposes (no hitting while potty training, teaching to not chew, etc)


I have a dog that I can kick during play and she’ll want more, however, the context of play if very different and distinguishable from hazard avoidance. I can’t think of one training scenario for attention where a reliance on hazard avoidance (startle response) would be necessary. Of course I probably spend much more time than the average owner reinforcing eye contact, so perhaps that’s my problem.


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## Curbside Prophet

Mrs Quick said:


> Gez Louise, you are not the only person in the world with an opinion. and sarasm and loking down on people is unnecessary. you are not in every dog/owner relationship. and YOU are not the center of every world. We got your opinion, you made your point, your voice heard. Stop disecting and correcting, there are no corrections to opinions. I'm happy your way works so wonderfully for you, and I'm glad you've mastered it well. I can train a cat in ways 99% of the world would think I'm nuts with a simple spray bottle and clear commands, but i dont judge others for using different tactics..chill down on the right ide..there is no right or wrong to an opinion. No one allows or agrees to abuse..peace..


If I gave you the impression that I'm judging YOU, I am not. If I gave you the impression you can censor me, you can not. To fix what seems to be a YOU problem, simply ignore my posts, or better yet, try a different thread.







Otherwise you'll risk exposing yourself to the discussion of IDEAS that I participate in...even the lame ones.


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## BoxMeIn21

Mrs Quick said:


> Even the trainers said sometimes, some dogs just have domminance issues. Whether you like it or not, its a fact, whether you agree with it or not, its a fact.Read up on wolves, canines and how they live. Luckily, we can merge most of our puppies in without theese issues. But it does not change the fact they can and do exist. And it will never change my opionion of a big difference between a spanking and a bop off the rear...


I think this needs to be said again...



Cracker said:


> By the way, 90 percent of aggression is based in fear, not dominance. Dominance/alpha theory has been rethought in the last fifteen years but many trainers are still in the dark ages. To bad for the dogs.


By the way Mrs Quick, you might want to read a little more modern material. Dogs are not wolves, nor do they have the rigid hierachy and pack structure that wolves do...comparing wolf pack behavior to dog behavior is pretty silly. 


And calm down about Curb...you'll grow to love him, you'll see.


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## BoxMeIn21

Mrs Quick said:


> did I say dogs are wolves? I said read up on wolves and canines, they are part of the same family..what am I on another planet here? You know whats funny I was just reading on newbie abuse in a sticky post, and I'm seeing it right here. All of you are treating me like crap for no reason, just looking to fight with me. With being patronizing and sarcastic and nasty with your comments instead of being like heres some new info, or hey something maybe you didnt know..and a moderator being nasty at that..some forum..when moderators can break the rules...harassing and bashing other members. I'm a mod on 3 different forums, a member on many more..and I have never seen nastiness such as this..especially with a new member..
> 
> And for your damn information, read on wild dogs you asses and learn something they ARE THE SAME..and also have a heirarchy, humanize your dogs all you like, dont judge me for treating my dog like a ****IG DOG!


WOW. Who is bashing anyone? Where is the nastiness?? I think you are reading a little too much into things...


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## BoxMeIn21

Mrs Quick said:


> sure i am after gettickg treated like shit for the last 2 pages of this post..


Over react much?


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## deege39

To get back on topic, I saw someone at the dog park, a couple moons ago, who literately picked up her dog, laid him across her lap, held up his tail and proceeded to spank him just like you would a child!  I was flabberghasted, she did the whole, _"No, bad dog,"_ thing as she's spanking him... It wasn't harsh enough to cause him much pain but the dog was looking up at her like, _"You're embarassing me, in front of my friends??"_ 

I can see where some dogs, might need some forcefull nudging, or swatting, especially if it comes to a lack of attention, but to out-right just spank the dog until it's yelping because it crapped on the floor?? Why? Some, if not most dogs, more than likely associate that spanking in conjuction with their bodily function!


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## Cracker

Thank goodness for the quote function, or I wouldn't have been able to read all the nice words the Mrs. sent our way.

Yikes.


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## TxRider

I've hit my dogs, it was long ago and it taught me that it was the wrong thing to do unless it was an extreme situation. The results were not what I wanted in my dog.

I will still do it, if say my dog grabbed a cat or in process of.. I would likely smack her as hard it took to interrupt the attack, in a place it wasn't going to cause harm, but would likely smart some.

If she was attacking a kid she might not even walk away from it.

That isn't spanking, it would be me attacking my dog. Which I would do if needed.

That said, nothing short of those types of situation is hitting needed that I can see. My dog can learn which behavior is to be avoided just fine without a touch.

Fortunately though she would grab a cat if given a chance I believe, she loves kids to death.

But spanking? nope, silly idea altogether IMO... It works, it can work faster than any other way for teaching some things... It's the side effects I don't care for which can range from not much to very bad effects depending on the dog.


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## Foyerhawk

No kidding Cracker. Those are the nastiests posts I've ever seen on any forum I've ever been on, I think- and that's saying something. I've seen a few decent fights on forums, but they've never turned into cussing out strangers!


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## BoxMeIn21

Cracker said:


> Thank goodness for the quote function, or I wouldn't have been able to read all the nice words the Mrs. sent our way.
> 
> Yikes.


Um yeah, and that wasn't all of it...She was all about throwing out some insults...but who could blame her, she was being abused!!


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## MaddieTheDog

The dog is probably very confused and may fear the owner when it comes to spanking. Just the image of someone picking their dog up and spanking its rear end (uncovered, butthole exposed rear end, mind you, gross) is messed up. They dont speak our language. I dont think anyone would like to go to a foreign country and get spanked for not knowing their language immediately. 

I also disagree with spanking children...but, I can understand spanking in VERY rare occasions to spank children for the REALLY bad things--like running into streets. (Used rarely, it can be efficient.) I dont have kids so I can't say for myself, but I work with children professionally.

Now, in the rare case that Maddie tries to bite or tries to jump on a child (she gets very defensive, I think it's because she's fearful of the child who is her size/smaller, and acts dominant and will do some damage if allowed-older kids fine, just those smaller ones) she gets picked up, glared at and I yell at her a big fat "NO! NOT OK!". Only when her behavior becomes dangerous will she get this treatment.

To those saying they do it for the noise-
You can make noise by things other than their bodies. Yesterday, Maddie barked at nothing (probably someone across the street) and she went to the door. I let her, then told her to come back. She ignored me. I kept saying "maddie, come" and made myself sound very exciting. She has a problem with coming when asked. Then she tried to go upstairs to see her daddy. So I took the book in my hand and threw it on the couch. Got her attention and she came back over. It was the first time I did that. I dont want her to get scared of these loud noises.



Allie3985 said:


> I have spanked my dog two times. Once when she was chasing a toad into a bonfire. The toad actually jumped into the fire and Pickles was about to follow suite! She was running full speed at the fire and I freaked and screamed "Pickles stop!" and whacked her on the butt. It scared the CRAP out of her and she did not come near the fire the rest of the night and kept coming up to me with her head hanging as if to say she was sorry. I felt terrible but I suppose I would have felt worse if she would have been burned.
> 
> I have also spanked Merry once when she was getting in a dog fight. This is very stupid. . .but I got lucky and it worked.
> 
> Both times that I spanked it was out of panic. I don't know if I regret doing it because I prevented worse injuries but I do wish that I would have
> a) had a better recall with Pickles to call her off or had been watching her closer to see this coming
> b) known the "finger in the butt" trick, or again seen the warning signs from the other dog and not let Merry near him
> c) no more dog park for me, you live and learn. I will react better the next time I'm in the situations.


That would be one of the few times I would spank a dog or a child---gets them out of danger. With the dog, I would grab the dog or "spank" him/her to get their attention because there's no time to waste. Doing something else may not work in time and then you'd have one hot dog. Well, with the kid, I would grab them as fast as I could. Not sure if I would spank, but I can see the point there.



marsha=whitie said:


> I don't believe in _spanking_, but I do believe in some type of physical punishment (not beating). When Susie chased a car down the driveway, and I yelled at her, she didn't stop. I had to chase her down. When I caught her, she refused to walk, so I drug her til she decided to cooperate. She was tied up for 2 days, and she hasn't chased a car since. Sometimes you have to get rough, but not to the beating point.
> 
> When Callie was a pup, she would bite. Anytime she did so, I'd yelp and ignore her, but she just wouldn't stop. So, one day I kinda went off; she bit me, I grabbed her by her neck hair and collar, flipped her over and growled(call me wierd, idc). I held her there til she stopped squirming and biting. It work; she hasn't bitten me since, unless we're rough-housing and its ok. That's actually why I named her Callisto Kaida: "My most Beautiful Little Dragon." lol


Two days???? Within 30 seconds your dog would have had NO idea what you were upset at. I hope your dog was not continuously tied up--isnt it illegal to have your dog tied up for over a specific amount of time? Maybe it's just certain states. Either way, that is a form of abuse.

With your second example, my trainer said that she did that with her dog a couple of times and it was the only time she would. I've adopted the same stance, as I wrote above.


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## Rayzyn

My dog is a large breed (Am. Staff x Boxer) and weighs about 35kg.. When playing he somtimes goes a bit far and jumps and bites the face/chest area. I have given him a stern NO! and a tap on the back leg, but never hit him to the point where he's afraid of me.

It's my dog and I use my own judgement on how I treat him (within the law that is)


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## nikkiluvsu15

I would like to say I haven't, but unfortunately I have. It was after Rebel chewed something up. I don't want to say that spanking him made him NOT ever do it again, but he hasn't. I haven't ever hit him again though.

Although both Harleigh and Rebel are a little hard headed at times. I _sometimes, not always_ use a gentle tap to get their attention. It seems to work and neither are aggressive. But no spanking anymore for them.

I was spanked as a child and I am glad I was. I'm a much better kid because of it. Spanking, IMHO, isn't as cruel as everyone says it is. Nor is it child abuse. Let me clarify, It isn't that unless the parents or whoever take it out of hand. My parents never did. Everyone I know never takes it out of hand either.

One way I look at it is... Most kids (not all, some respond better to other methods and I have no problem with that. Whatever works!) learn something from spankings, dogs don't because they aren't human beings. 

That's just me honest opinion. Some may disagree and some may agree, but that's just the way the world goes!


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## SunnySmoothe

My dog had an accident, #2, in the house on Fri/Sat. Terrible considering she is house trained. The weird part is she pooped right in front of 2 different bathroom doors for some odd reason. 

The accident on Friday, I tried to be calm and smacked her lightly then she just comes up to me and licks me. 

Second time on Sat, I was being observant and let her out several times yet she managed to sneak away and went to my bedroom bathroom and pooped. I was so pissed, that I picked up my dog, threw her down near the poop, yelled and hit her a couple times in the face. I rolled up a magazine and started hitting it with my hand making a loud noise and scaring her. Then I picked her up and put her in the bath tub as I cleaned. I realize what I have done does not help house train her however I lost my temper. Horrible excuse and I feel so badly. 

I really felt bad the day after and I can tell her mood wasn't the same even though I know she forgave me. Unfortunately the bruises she may have had I cannot see because of her fur and the emotional bruises have probably ruined some of the trust she had in me. 

Today I feel completely horrible because thinking back when I hit her she didn't even growl, yelp, or run, she took it. Her head cowered and she was terrified but she just stood there. I mean its only poop and shouldn't be a big deal so why did I get so mad. I am so disappointed in myself for being so angry and not being a calm pack leader. I hope this incident is a good lesson for me. My dog Lucy is so innocent, very friendly and loves to lick so I could be so evil and hurt her in that manner. WOW I am feeling depressed.


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## Cracker

Sunny Smoothe.

I found your post really upsetting. NOt only because of your pup but also because of you. IF your dog is fully housetrained (and if she's under a year, she's most likely NOT) than an accident or two must happen because of something...she could be having trouble holding her bowels for some reason, she could be suffering from separation anxiety, she could have worms etc. You didn't even try to figure out why this happened. This is unfair to her....and your reaction was, simply put..ABUSE. 

Now, this is something you feel bad about now...I truly believe you need to talk to someone about your anger...this sort of behaviour on your part needs to be looked into as it is NOT a normal response. Please do so.

I am torn between anger and pity.


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## Jen D

I spanked once an aggressive dog that turned and showed teeth towards a person. I am lucky I didn't get bit and I could of handled it a better way but it was just an instant reaction.


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## MarleyandMe

I believe that spaking in children is somthing to evolk emotions, not pain. You tap a todler on the bum, and tell him no, he cries, not because the tap that was through a diaper hurt him, but because it's shocking to the child, oh my dog, mom is mad at me. However, I think a dog wouild take it differently. I have never ever hit marley, ever. They would take it too much to heart, so to speak, and it might create fear. I think positive reinforcement is better to the dog, because it creates a happier atmospshere. Hitting is completly unnessasary because just saying "bad dog" has the same effect on the dog as the light tap on a child's bum, and that's all that's needed.


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## deege39

SunnySmoothe said:


> My dog had an accident, #2, in the house on Fri/Sat. Terrible considering she is house trained. The weird part is she pooped right in front of 2 different bathroom doors for some odd reason.
> 
> The accident on Friday, I tried to be calm and smacked her lightly then she just comes up to me and licks me.
> 
> Second time on Sat, I was being observant and let her out several times yet she managed to sneak away and went to my bedroom bathroom and pooped. I was so pissed, that I picked up my dog, threw her down near the poop, yelled and hit her a couple times in the face. I rolled up a magazine and started hitting it with my hand making a loud noise and scaring her. Then I picked her up and put her in the bath tub as I cleaned. I realize what I have done does not help house train her however I lost my temper. Horrible excuse and I feel so badly.
> 
> I really felt bad the day after and I can tell her mood wasn't the same even though I know she forgave me. Unfortunately the bruises she may have had I cannot see because of her fur and the emotional bruises have probably ruined some of the trust she had in me.
> 
> Today I feel completely horrible because thinking back when I hit her she didn't even growl, yelp, or run, she took it. Her head cowered and she was terrified but she just stood there. I mean its only poop and shouldn't be a big deal so why did I get so mad. I am so disappointed in myself for being so angry and not being a calm pack leader. I hope this incident is a good lesson for me. My dog Lucy is so innocent, very friendly and loves to lick so I could be so evil and hurt her in that manner. WOW I am feeling depressed.


I just want to ask why accidents in the house like that make you _ erupt_ with such anger and violence? 

It is only after all, poop or pee, if one or two accidents that can be easily cleaned up are that upsetting, I think you may need someone to talk to... It's not as if the accidents covered the entire room, ceiling to floor, ground into the furniture to never be removed... If it left a stain, or an odor, a simple steam-cleaner from _Wal-Mar_t can resolve the mess...

Your post was very troubling, as it was very descriptive, but I do give you credit for acknowledging that reaction was inappropriate...


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## MaddieTheDog

Regardless of what the law says, that should not dictate whether or not something should or should not be done. What is morally/ethically right may not be what the law says. The law can say it's ok to run someone over, but does it make it ok? nope.


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## Furby

Try a rolled up news paper. DO NOT hit the dog with it. Bang the paper around. Make some noise. Tap the dog LIGHTLY with it. They get the idea. 

That way they can hate the paper not me.


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## RedyreRottweilers

Furby said:


> Try a rolled up news paper. DO NOT hit the dog with it. Bang the paper around. Make some noise. Tap the dog LIGHTLY with it. They get the idea.
> 
> That way they can hate the paper not me.


You really should not come on a public forum and advise people to use such an object to strike or intimidate their dog.

This is absolutely not necessary in ANY form of training. If you find a need to pick up a rolled up newspaper, I suggest you hit yourself on the head with it, not use it to intimidate or strike your dog.


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## Luce

I've tapped Otis about 3 times now. All 3 times were reactionary and all pointless. It goes like this: we're doing sit/stay/down/shake/etc and after a while he gets tired and barks at me because he doesn't want to do it anymore. Then I say 'No! No bark!' and he crouches down playfully and barks at me. Then I say 'No! No bark!' and he jumps up and tries to bite my hand. And then, without thinking, I slap him on the nose or the side and say 'No!'. Then he tries to jump and bite my hand again because now he thinks we're playing tussle (obviously I don't slap him hard enough for him to think I'm angry - lucky for us both!) and by now I'm in control of myself and I either walk away or I pick him up and either put him in another room for a time out or I hold him firmly and say 'Calm down!' until he stops stuggling/trying to bite.

Anyway, point is, 3 times now I've done that as a reaction, without thinking, and three times he responded by trying to play-bite me again. So I would never try to use correctional taps/slaps on purpose - he might develop a real aggression/fear issue.

And yeah, I have also realised that I need to make our training sessions shorter so he doesn't get tired and snappy in the first place.


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## ZolmansDoberman

Doberdude said:


> Amen to that. I only spank my dog rarely and has to be something really bad, just a little smack on the bottom.


I agree also.. I have a 13 month old Red Doberman and everyone says he is the most well trained and attentive dog they have ever seen...and I think it is totally because he respects me as the pack leader...he respects me... It doesnt matter the situation....whos around...or anything I snap my fingers and he obeys whatever command follows... My fiance is totally against "spanking" but has told me on numerous occasions that she is happy with how our big baby Titan has turned out.... I believe that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed but as far as disciplining a dog how can you totally argue that spanking is not okay...

If you look at wild dogs anytime a dog steps out of line the Pack leader expresses their Authority by any means including violence and the dog knows its role and stops messing up....People have domesticated dogs the same way for thousands of years...IMO spanking is ok as long as its not overboard


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## GypsyJazmine

Pokerman11 said:


> I don't believe in 'spanking' with an open hand. I don't want the dog to fear me too much. HOwever for me I have large working class dogs and they have a very high tollerance for pain. I do believe i need to hit them once and a while.
> 
> Mostly to startle them, and I usualy try to make a loud of a noise as possible. A crack of the leash works, or a rolled up mag, but again I was told to never hit with my own hands.
> 
> only need to do it once and a while usualy duing my initial training, mostly when the dog is not paying attention and needs to focus on me. I want to startle them to focus on me and not be scared of me.
> 
> HOwever, in truth the dog needs to really respect me as the leader. I'm firm during training. Really firm - never hurt them be be firm.
> 
> Again this is for large working class dogs, as that's what I train.
> 
> tks


I keep & train large working dogs also...I see no need to ever raise a hand or anything else to them EVER & I have some pretty well trained dogs!


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## infiniti

Wow! I am completely stunned by many of the posts in this thread! 

I didn't read the entire thread, possibly to my own detriment in making comments regarding same, but the number of people who believe it is accepable to hit, smack, and even BEAT and abuse their dogs is truly and utterly astounding to me!!! 

I have only had Bella for 11 months, but in that time period I have NEVER raised my hand in anger or frustration with her ... NEVER. She's as stubborn as they come, always pushing the envelope. She's fully trained but doesn't always pay attention or listen. She gets into the trash when no one is looking, and she occasionally potties in the house if she hasn't been let out appropriately and just can't hold it anymore. She pulls on the leash when we walk, and whines in Petco. She is NOT perfectly behaved by any stretch of the imagination, BUT she is perfect to me! 

I am probably too laid back with her, too accepting of her "quirks", and too forgiving of her less than stellar behavior at times. My ex boyfriend one time threatened to "beat the crap" out of her for something or another --- I told him if he so much as touched her in anger, he'd be leaving in an ambulance!

I was spanked as a kid, and I did occasionally spank my kids (who are 18 and 21), but not often at all. And I wish now that I never had. 

Bella knows what "naughty" means, and she knows when she's done something naughty. Many times, after she's been caught trying to get in the trash (at which time, I say, "Bella ... out of the trash"), she will exile herself to her crate for a self-imposed time out.

Hit her, bop her, smack her, spank her, thump her? Absolutely positively NEVER!


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## RonE

This is an old - sometimes ugly - thread that gets dug up every so often.

If anyone has anything new to add, please start a new one.


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