# To Train or Not to Train?



## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

Hello! I am wondering if you all could help me out. Let me start with the back story:

My fiancee and I found a breeder we liked back in September, and since then we've kept in contact with her. She has provided everything we've asked for (pedigrees, OFA certifications, pictures of previous litters from each parent, etc.). After recently doing a ton of research on other breeders and comparing them to her, we've decided that we really want to purchase one of her pups. We picked a mommy and daddy from her list of Upcoming Litters and were promised that they'd be born sometime in late Feb., which would mean the pup would be coming home right around our ideal time frame (early to mid-May). We wanted to bring the pup home in May or June because we are moving at the end of March and want to be fully settled-in before bringing the puppy home. 

We just learned that the mommy went into heat early and will now be having the pups in late March. We've found someone (recommended by the breeder) that takes pups starting at 8 weeks old and trains them. The pup will be socialized, introduced to tons of new things (water, horses, sheep, children, other dogs, etc), and will begin housetraining.

My question is: Would it be worth it to pay a good chunk of money (around $600) to have the pup trained, or should we just try to find another breeder? From your experience/opinion, would the trainer be able to train the pup (who will be between 13 and 14 weeks old when we get him back) enough that it'll make a big difference? (i.e. would the pup be any more housetrained than it was at 8 weeks?) I know he'll be just a baby, so I don't really know what to expect from him learning-wise. Will he be able to retain any of the training he receives?

Thanks so much!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Why do you have to send the puppy to the trainer if you go with this breeder? I guess I'm not understanding why you want to find a new breeder.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Kayota said:


> Why do you have to send the puppy to the trainer if you go with this breeder? I guess I'm not understanding why you want to find a new breeder.


My thoughts too. Does the breeder require you to send your pup to this puppy boot camp? 

I mean, IMO, I enjoyed training my own dog. Socialization isn't that hard, it just takes time and research.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

Yes, in order to get a pup from this breeder, we would have to send him to the trainer. It would be kind of like boarding him, but he'd also be getting trained. (Because we can't bring him home until after we move- it wouldn't be fair to him at all)

She doesn't require it at all, it's just the choice we'd have to make if we want this specific pup.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Why can't the breeder keep him?


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

I could always ask, but she does charge a boarding fee of $12/day beginning 3 days after the pick-up date. (Which I totally understand) I just figured that if I''m going to be spending $12/day for the breeder to keep him, I might as well spend the extra few dollars per day for the trainer to train him. Does that make sense or am I just being foolish?


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

If you've spent a lot of time getting to know this breeder and want to work with her I would either wait for her next litter or get one from this one and have the breeder keep the pup until you are ready.

I wouldn't send a dog of any age away to a board and train facility because you won't be there to have any say in the methods being used to train your dog. Plus training is about 80% the human learning how to train the dog which you don't get at all from a board and train.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Training isn't something that is done and finished in a week or two. A dog can get a good start with training in that time, but training has to continue when the puppy comes home.

I don't see why it's necessary. If the puppy is from a good breeder, a good foundation should already be in place when they are ready to hand the puppy over, like getting started with housetraining and socialisation. Neither of these can be done in a week or two, especially not if the puppy is going to be kennelled for boarding and training.

That just doesn't make any sense.

And personally I enjoy training my own dogs, so I wouldn't hand my puppy over to someone else for training. If for some reason I decided to, I would have to know what kind of training would be done (reward based) and how good the trainer was, where the puppy would be staying (kennelling would be pointless), etc.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

Gally said:


> If you've spent a lot of time getting to knpw this breeder and want to work with her i wpuld either wait for her next litter or get one from this one and have the breeder keep the pup until you are ready.
> 
> I wouldn't send a dog of any age away to a board and train facility because you won't be there to have any say in the methods being used to train your dog. Plus training is about 80% the human learning how to train the dog ehich you don't get at all feom a board and train.


How would having the breeder keep the puppy be any different than having the trainer keep him though?


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Training isn't something that is done and finished in a week or two. A dog can get a good start with training in that time, but training has to continue when the puppy comes home.
> 
> I don't see why it's necessary. If the puppy is from a good breeder, a good foundation should already be in place when they are ready to hand the puppy over, like getting started with housetraining and socialisation. Neither of these can be done in a week or two, especially not if the puppy is going to be kennelled for boarding and training.
> 
> ...


I have talked to the trainer on the phone a few times and the training is all positive, reward-based training. The trainer does NOT kennel the pups she trains (she only takes two at a time, so I would have to reserve my spot soon if I decide to move forward with her training my pup) and the pup would live in her house as one of her own dogs, and would sleep in its crate, in her room. I've asked every possible question that can be asked without physically seeing her home, trust me.  I wouldn't just leave my pup with someone without knowing how he would be treated/trained. She lives avout 30 minutes away from the breeder so when we go to pick our pup out (when they're about 6 weeks old) we'll be stopping by her house to see everything.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> How would having the breeder keep the puppy be any different than having the trainer keep him though?


The puppy already knows the breeder and her dogs. Having the pup move from the breeder to the trainer and then to your house at a later date is a lot of transitioning and stress for a young pup. I think staying with the breeder would be the less stressful option for the puppy.

A few weeks at a trainer with an 8 week old pup probably wont accomplish too much. At least not much more than I would expect a good breeder to start a puppy on. 

When my pup came home from the breeder at 10 weeks he had already started on crate training and potty training and was used to a collar and leash.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

Gally said:


> FirstTimeLabMomma said:
> 
> 
> > How would having the breeder keep the puppy be any different than having the trainer keep him though?
> ...


Ok, I've contacted the breeder and am just waiting for a reply. Thank you for elaborating!  Hopefully she gets back to me soon.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> I have talked to the trainer on the phone a few times and the training is all positive, reward-based training. The trainer does NOT kennel the pups she trains (she only takes two at a time, so I would have to reserve my spot soon if I decide to move forward with her training my pup) and the pup would live in her house as one of her own dogs, and would sleep in its crate, in her room. I've asked every possible question that can be asked without physically seeing her home, trust me.  I wouldn't just leave my pup with someone without knowing how he would be treated/trained. She lives avout 30 minutes away from the breeder so when we go to pick our pup out (when they're about 6 weeks old) we'll be stopping by her house to see everything.


That's good 

I still don't see the point in sending a puppy away for training though. Like I said above, training isn't done in a week or two, and the breeder should already be doing basic housetraining and socialisation with the puppies. If she's not, I wouldn't consider her a good breeder.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Without meaning to pry, why is it that you can't take a puppy early? Many people who work full-time and/or have busy schedules get puppies and it works out fine. If necessary, you could hire a trustworthy, vetted dog walker to stop by your house for puppy potty breaks until he older / you have more time.

To answer your initial question, no, I (very likely) wouldn't send my dog away to a trainer at any age, but definitely not as a baby puppy. As was mentioned, it's a great deal of stress, plus you really don't know what the trainer is doing, if s/he is doing things the way you would want, and there really isn't that much benefit to having someone else train the pup for that amount of time. The pup will still be in the very beginning stages of potty training, won't fully know any cues, and may still need work on bite inhibition.

And this:


lil_fuzzy said:


> I still don't see the point in sending a puppy away for training though. Like I said above, training isn't done in a week or two, and the breeder should already be doing basic housetraining and socialisation with the puppies. If she's not, I wouldn't consider her a good breeder.


When we got our puppies, it wasn't an ideal time, but we like the breeder, like the dog, and made it work.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> That just doesn't make any sense.


Agree!!!

I would have never gone this way with a personal pup.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

The reason we're even considering this is because we are moving right when the pups will be ready to come home (the mom went into heat earlier than expected). We don't want the pup to be stressed, nor will we have the time to give him the attention he deserves until we're done with the move. That's why we're even thinking of doing this. We're not making any decision lightly, however we want to do what is best for the pup.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Honestly if it won't be a good time I would just wait for another litter. Paying someone $600 to look after a puppy for a couple weeks to me is kind of absurd. It's a bit strange that the breeder wouldn't just keep them knowing the circumstances, but of course ultimately it's up to you to decide what you're comfortable with.

Personally I wouldn't give my puppy to someone I didn't know personally and trust not to mess them up.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> I could always ask, but she does charge a boarding fee of $12/day beginning 3 days after the pick-up date. (Which I totally understand) I just figured that if I''m going to be spending $12/day for the breeder to keep him, I might as well spend the extra few dollars per day for the trainer to train him. Does that make sense or am I just being foolish?


 Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation, but it seems to me as if the breeder is saying, _"yeah sure we can keep your dog for you until you're ready, at the rate of $12 per day. But for that money he'll merely be 'kept' (kenneled and fed) and all training thus far will come to an abrupt halt. If you actually want his training to continue, then you'll have to send the pup to our recommended trainer / boarding facility, at the rate of $15 per day". _ If the breeder is willing to allow the pup to stagnate but still expect to be paid for their non-effort, then it doesn't sound like the kind of breeder I'd be comfortable acquiring a puppy from, personally. It's a lot different than boarding a mature dog, it's an 8 week pup, and one of their own.

Not to mention, what about the vaccination protocol and it's cost during that 8 to 14 week time frame? who will be responsible for that?

Also there is more to properly socializing a young pup besides introducing him to water and farm animals. Much more.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> Honestly if it won't be a good time I would just wait for another litter. Paying someone $600 to look after a puppy for a couple weeks to me is kind of absurd. It's a bit strange that the breeder wouldn't just keep them knowing the circumstances, but of course ultimately it's up to you to decide what you're comfortable with.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't give my puppy to someone I didn't know personally and trust not to mess them up.


I've asked the breeder if she was able to keep the pup for me, and she said she could. However she is having another liter in mid-April and therefore wouldn't be able to give the pup as much attention as it would need (though she WOULD give it attention and training). I could bring the pup home, but with our work schedules AND moving in early April we'd need someone to stop over 3+ times a day ($10 each time they stopped over). The pup wouldn't be as socialized (with other dogs, new experiences, etc.) and it would spend most of its day in a crate.

Are you sure that you'd rather have your pup live like that, compared to letting someone else take him for a month until you can give him the proper attention he deserves?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

As you just "picked" the parents of the puppy from photos, I cannot see why you cannot just wait for another litter that arrives at a better time. It will be a lot harder on the puppy to get attached to the breeder by staying there, then coming to you. Most of training at that age is you and the puppy getting used to each other and your routines. Sounds like the breeder does have a lot of puppies. Do they do health testing, hips, eyes, etc. that is important, not just a Vet visit.

You posted the above as I was typing. I would suggest you wait for the next litter. By the time you are ready for it you will be all moved and settled in. That is what I would do if you are getting a puppy from this breeder.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

I would pay for the vaccinations, as well as all heartworm/flea prevention.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> I've asked the breeder if she was able to keep the pup for me, and she said she could. However she is having another liter in mid-April and therefore wouldn't be able to give the pup as much attention as it would need (though she WOULD give it attention and training). I could bring the pup home, but with our work schedules AND moving in early April we'd need someone to stop over 3+ times a day ($10 each time they stopped over). The pup wouldn't be as socialized (with other dogs, new experiences, etc.) and it would spend most of its day in a crate.
> 
> Are you sure that you'd rather have your pup live like that, compared to letting someone else take him for a month until you can give him the proper attention he deserves?


I'm sure that I would wait for another litter.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

We could do that, yes. But we want a yellow pup and her next two litters are American-style black and yellow Labs (we want English-style) and English-style chocolates later in summer. We'd prefer to bring the pup home before summer is over because the kids will be going back to school in the Fall and we'd like for them to fully experience puppy training.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

How many litters does she have in a year?

Personally, I wouldn't be comfortable with any of that. But I'm not comfortable sending a dog out to any of these training places... Too many horror stories and I just don't trust people too easily with my pets. It's hard enough for me to have Annabel go to a few nights for boarding, let alone have someone train her without me there. If I were in your place, I'd probably be looking for another breeder, or at the very least, a different litter.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

It seems like the general consensus is that sending an 8 week old puppy to be boarded is not the best idea. 3 homes in less than 4 months is going to be stressful for a puppy. And for me, one of the points of getting a puppy from a breeder is getting a puppy with no neurosis or problems. 

In my opinion, there are three reasons to get a puppy:
1) You get to develop a very strong bond with it in the first few weeks of it's life
2) You get to train it from the ground up. Watching a puppy's progress as it grows and learns is a very rewarding experience. 
3) And like I said previously, you have a dog that is a total clean slate. No neurosis or behavioral problems. Anything good or bad that the pup does, it's all you. 

So.... if you're going to skip all those things.... there's not really much of a point to get a puppy. 

I would either wait for a puppy when it's the right time for you, or leave him with the breeder a few weeks longer. There are some breeders out there that won't even release their puppies to their buyers until their 10-12 weeks of age. 

There are a lot of books out there that say that the best time to bond with your puppy is in the 8-10 week stage of life, because they're experiencing a fear period, and will run to their person for protection and safety. I personally think that's a load of hooey, because I know shelter dogs of any age that bond just as tightly with their people as dogs that have been with their people since they were puppies.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> We could do that, yes. But we want a yellow pup and her next two litters are American-style black and yellow Labs (we want English-style) and English-style chocolates later in summer. We'd prefer to bring the pup home before summer is over because the kids will be going back to school in the Fall and we'd like for them to fully experience puppy training.


How many litters does this lady have a year? From what I understand, any more than two or three is a red flag. I know you have your heart set on this breeder, but _please _keep that in mind. Please.

How old are your kids? Depending on their age, they may not benefit from any real puppy training anyways.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

I believe she has 3 or 4 litters each year, usually one for each season. She only has a select few English-style labs though, so my choices are limited as to which litters I can pick from. As I said, we want our kids to have all summer to help raise this pup and learn the responsibility that comes with it. If we got a pup from a litter later in the year, the kids wouldn't be able to experience as much.

I'm asking on a one-time-basis here. Ideally I would not like to have to send the pup anywhere. However this is the litter we want our pup to come from, and if we wait we won't be seeing this pairing again for another 2 years (about). We could spend $30/day for a month for the pup to sit in his crate all day, or we could send him to a trainer (whom I will meet and see her home/meet her family/meet all of the animals (canine and others) the pup will be living with. I don't know why everyone is assuming that I'm just going to ship this dog to some random stranger. This trainer will have her vet reference checked, her professional references (families of previous pups she's trained) checked, and her entire home/facility checked (she's also a breeder but only produces litters once or twice a year). I will also require that I get a daily update (via email or phone) and tons of pictures.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

The kids are 9 1/2 and 12, so I think they'd benefit a lot from helping to raise this pup.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> I believe she has 3 or 4 litters each year, usually one for each season. She only has a select few English-style labs though, so my choices are limited as to which litters I can pick from. As I said, we want our kids to have all summer to help raise this pup and learn the responsibility that comes with it. If we got a pup from a litter later in the year, the kids wouldn't be able to experience as much.
> 
> I'm asking on a one-time-basis here. Ideally I would not like to have to send the pup anywhere. However this is the litter we want our pup to come from, and if we wait we won't be seeing this pairing again for another 2 years (about). We could spend $30/day for a month for the pup to sit in his crate all day, or we could send him to a trainer (whom I will meet and see her home/meet her family/meet all of the animals (canine and others) the pup will be living with. I don't know why everyone is assuming that I'm just going to ship this dog to some random stranger. This trainer will have her vet reference checked, her professional references (families of previous pups she's trained) checked, and her entire home/facility checked (she's also a breeder but only produces litters once or twice a year). I will also require that I get a daily update (via email or phone) and tons of pictures.


You sound like your heart is set on this. Not really sure where the conversation is going to go at this point. We're probably not going to all jump on the bandwagon and say "Yeah! This is a good idea!" but if you've done your research and checked references, and you're comfortable with it, then do what you feel is right.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

There are very few circumstances where I might send a dog away to a board and train facility, and absolutely not as a young puppy. In your case, I would just wait and get a puppy from another litter.

There are also a ton of red flags in how many litters she's breeding and the fact that they are all different types of dogs. There are grey areas in everything, but a breeder who only breeds her own dogs together (and doesn't look at outside studs), doesn't have any titles on any of the dogs, and has litters every month is not someoen I would buy a puppy from. I would say look for another breeder with a litter due when the timing will work out.

ETA: Why are you so set on the parents of this litter? You keep mentioning English vs American style labs, but is that just a physical aesthetic preference? From what you've said this woman isn't breeding for the field or the show ring, just pets, so the temperament of the parents should matter more than what they look like physically.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> There are very few circumstances where I might send a dog away to a board and train facility, and absolutely not as a young puppy. In your case, I would just wait and get a puppy from another litter.
> 
> There are also a ton of red flags in how many litters she's breeding and the fact that they are all different types of dogs. There are grey areas in everything, but a breeder who only breeds her own dogs together (and doesn't look at outside studs), doesn't have any titles on any of the dogs, and has litters every month is not someoen I would buy a puppy from. I would say look for another breeder with a litter due when the timing will work out.
> 
> ETA: Why are you so set on the parents of this litter? You keep mentioning English vs American style labs, but is that just a physical aesthetic preference? From what you've said this woman isn't breeding for the field or the show ring, just pets, so the temperament of the parents should matter more than what they look like physically.


Since when is she having litters every month? "3-4 litters a year" is not every month. The trainer is not a board and train facility, she is a trainer who works out of her home and only takes 2 pups at a time to train. Most likely mine will be the only one she has. The breeder has titles on almost every dog, (not sure where you how you came to the conclusion that she didn't?) and EVERY dog has titles in its pedigree. The breeder shows all of her dogs and (for the American-style) frequently takes them hunting.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

Thank you to everyone who gave me viable feedback. Unfortunately many people cannot grasp the concept of "she is not a train and board facility" and therefore I don't think the responses have been unbiased. I would not send my dog to a kennel to sit there in a cage and wait for someone to train him when they found the time.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I get it. Not a train and board facility, just a trainer who takes a few select pups. I STILL would wait for a different litter. I just do not believe it's in the best interest for the pup. For the reasons everyone mentioned above. Also, this wouldn't be a breeder I would be comfortable with at all, but we all have different ideas of what are deal-breakers for breeders we deal with.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> Thank you to everyone who gave me viable feedback. Unfortunately many people cannot grasp the concept of "she is not a train and board facility" and therefore I don't think the responses have been unbiased. I would not send my dog to a kennel to sit there in a cage and wait for someone to train him when they found the time.


I really don't think anyone thought that's what it is. She could be a very adept loving trainer. But it's still 3 homes in as many months for a puppy. There is a possibility of that causing some problems. This is a forum, you are not going to get an unbaised response. That's not really how it works. If you ask our opinions, we're not just going to nod and agree with you. 

And like Elrohwen said, most breeders only breed to one standard. Mainly because they are trying to strive for the betterment of the breed. One breed. Once you start mixing different "styles" of dogs in, it gets iffy. From the small amount of research I just did, English and American Labs have completely different standards. It seems like it would almost be like breeding two different breeds of dog. Different temperaments, different body types. I know you're probably not going to listen, because you really like this breeder, but I would be wary.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea, just generally speaking from what you've said it doesn't sound like I breeder I'd be comfortable giving my money to, much less with the added having to give my pup to someone else for several weeks.

Everyone's requirements for what makes a good breeder are different though, just for me personally (multiple litters/year, wanting to charge for keeping the pup longer, referring me to someone else to charge more money to keep the pup, etc) I would just be looking for someone else.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> Since when is she having litters every month? "3-4 litters a year" is not every month. The trainer is not a board and train facility, she is a trainer who works out of her home and only takes 2 pups at a time to train. Most likely mine will be the only one she has. The breeder has titles on almost every dog, (not sure where you how you came to the conclusion that she didn't?) and EVERY dog has titles in its pedigree. The breeder shows all of her dogs and (for the American-style) frequently takes them hunting.


Titles in the pedigree is not the same as having titles on the dogs themselves. I mean that the breeder actually puts titles on the dogs they breed. I remember a site that you posted on another thread where the dogs had OFA results but no titles, and I assumed it was the same breeder. If not, then my mistake. 

Still, she is having a lot of litters. I know things happen, and I know people can deal with different things, but it's just generally a red flag when people are having new litters right after the old ones have left home. It's also a red flag for a breeder to only breed to their own dogs. There's no way that you happen to own the stud who is best for that particular female's faults and strengths so, to me, it shows that the breeder is breeding more to have puppies and less to improve the breed as a whole.

And we are not being biased about board and train the way you think we are. We are not taking it to mean that the puppy will sit in a kennel with no stimulation. However, I think most here would still not send a puppy, or even most adult dogs, to a trainer, whether the puppy was kept in the house or not.

The only circumstance where I would let my dog stay with a trainer is someone I know very well, like the woman I have taken classes from for the past two years. I know her training style and I know her personally and I trust her. I would not trust someone I didn't know to train my puppy the way I want it to be trained. I think you'll find that most of us have the same opinion and it has nothing to do with whether the dog is kenneled or not while it's there.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> The only circumstance where I would let my dog stay with a trainer is someone I know very well, like the woman I have taken classes from for the past two years. I know her training style and I know her personally and I trust her. I would not trust someone I didn't know to train my puppy the way I want it to be trained. I think you'll find that most of us have the same opinion and it has nothing to do with whether the dog is kenneled or not while it's there.


Yes this. There are a couple trainers here that I know personally and have taken classes with and worked with to a point where I know how they train and would be comfortable with them handling my dog. In most cases I wouldn't even let someone else hold her leash if I didn't have to unless I trusted the person.

ETA: I know lots of dog people who are trainers and/or have titles on dogs, etc that I would not allow to handle my dog.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I would not want to miss the most important socialization window of my puppy's life. I also would not want my puppy to be (in his mind) rehomed as a very young pup. All puppies have to leave their breeder. That is not avoidable. But to be removed from the litter and then removed from the first home it knew (even if it's very good) would be more wear and tear than I would chose for my own dog. 

I would wait. If I couldn't wait, I would leave my pup with the breeder.

I had to leave my pup with her breeder until she was 11 weeks old. I wasn't thrilled about it, but it took that long to sort out the conformation/performance/pet homes and my breeder was stellar. 

Best of luck, whatever you decide!


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

Kyllobernese said:


> As you just "picked" the parents of the puppy from photos, I cannot see why you cannot just wait for another litter that arrives at a better time. It will be a lot harder on the puppy to get attached to the breeder by staying there, then coming to you. Most of training at that age is you and the puppy getting used to each other and your routines. Sounds like the breeder does have a lot of puppies. Do they do health testing, hips, eyes, etc. that is important, not just a Vet visit.
> 
> You posted the above as I was typing. I would suggest you wait for the next litter. By the time you are ready for it you will be all moved and settled in. That is what I would do if you are getting a puppy from this breeder.


We didn't just "pick" the pup because of the photos of the parents. We like the lines that both dogs come from, and worried about looks after we saw all OFA certifications/pedigrees. The breeder does all health testing, as well as temperament testing. If the dog doesn't have the personality/health certifications they want to be passed on to their pups, it won't be bred.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I can tell that you've already formed a good relationship with this breeder and it sounds like you have your heart set on her. We are just throwing out red flags as we see them, because many of us have seen posters burned by breeders who turned out to be less reputable than they thought. We're not trying to argue or put you or her down, and it's certainly not personal. 

As far as the training thing goes, I feel like you have your heart set on getting this puppy and you want us to tell you that the training will be fine. It very well might be fine, and the woman is probably a good trainer, but the consensus here is still that none of us would do it. Again, nothing personal, but you asked for advice and we gave it based on our experiences with trainers and puppy raising. There are a lot of trainers out there who are very qualified and have tons of titles on their dogs, but who I would not feel comfortable entrusting with my own puppy when I wasn't around.

All we want is for you to get the best puppy possible and to integrate him or her into your life in the best possible way. Good luck with your decision.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't know if I would send my pup to a trainer for early training. . .but if I can get $600 for keeping someone's puppy for 2 weeks and doing normal puppy things I wanna get in on that!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Since a big part of getting a puppy from a breeder is getting to start the puppy off with your training methods, your body language, your household routine, etc, that alone is a minus point for sending the puppy to a board and train for 4-5 weeks in between leaving his litter and coming home with you. 

That makes for lots of transitions for a young puppy in a short period of time. There is also the vet care and health aspect to consider depending on if the trainer uses the same vet as you plan to and the risk of parvo and distemper in your area and such.

Then, how do you know how the trainer is really training the pup behind closed doors? This is a big aspect of why I am leery of board and trains unless you know the trainer well personally and are fully in agreement with their training style (their real training style, not what might be on a website or spouted during a walk through, unfortunately, that can be very different). I have seen real negative fallout from so-called positive reinforcement board and train that wasn't so positive at all unless positive punishment counts.

Personally though, I wouldn't want to leave the pup with the breeder either if at 8 weeks the situation changes from being a puppy part of a litter in the home into a puppy being boarded in a kennel. Not good at all for mental development.

I'd either expand my search to other states and other breeders since really even a 6 or 8 hour drive isn't much if it sets you up with a dog that has a great start in life with great genetics behind it OR I would be heading down to the shelters to look at some of the many young Labs that are dumped at 6 to 10ish months of age when their owners realize they are perpetual motion machines that generate chaos and fur and leave destruction in their wake and get a dog with a basically known size, basically known temperament and put the unspent purchase money into a health savings for the dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Then, how do you know how the trainer is really training the pup behind closed doors? This is a big aspect of why I am leery of board and trains unless you know the trainer well personally and are fully in agreement with their training style (their real training style, not what might be on a website or spouted during a walk through, unfortunately, that can be very different).


As a pro-trainer who started in 1963 and semi-retired now, through the years there were many trainers who I would not have trusted a "dog lead" with let alone a live puppy that I was gonna own. Funny thing sometimes the ones with the biggest ads, lines of bull, etc etc etc etc were the worst. The fun is in the pickin.


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

The breeder is personal friends with the trainer, and has had a few of her own dogs trained by her. I'm going to meet the trainer and breeder in person next week so I will decide 100% what I will do at that time.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

wvasko said:


> As a pro-trainer who started in 1963 and semi-retired now, through the years there were many trainers who I would not have trusted a "dog lead" with let alone a live puppy that I was gonna own. Funny thing sometimes the ones with the biggest ads, lines of bull, etc etc etc etc were the worst. The fun is in the pickin.





FirstTimeLabMomma said:


> The breeder is personal friends with the trainer, and has had a few of her own dogs trained by her. I'm going to meet the trainer and breeder in person next week so I will decide 100% what I will do at that time.


While I might take a training class based on the recommendation of only one person who is personal friends with the trainer, I sure wouldn't rely on that as a recommendation for a board and train. In a class, if the trainer demonstrates a technique that I don't feel is suitable or appropriate for my dog, I can modify the technique or choose not to use it at all. I can also prevent the trainer from using my dog to demonstrate on. For board and train, you have ZERO control over the methods used, only your trust in the trainer.

Remember that this trainer and this breeder have a business relationship also, there is a mutually beneficial financial arrangement going on which can affect how strongly someone recommends someone else's work. 

Note that I am not saying this trainer is good or bad. Simply that there are a wide variety of training methods and one person's "great trainer" can be another person's "run from this trainer." One of my friends does board and train. I get along with her, I think she does a lot to help in dog rescue, she loves my dogs, she takes good care of the dogs in her care, but I wouldn't let her train my dogs. She is quite upfront that she uses corrections and very strict NILIF and dominance theory. Her customers are fine with that and in general, the dogs are too. Chester would be fine with it. Eva though would totally emotionally shut down with that sort of training, she tucks her tail if I even speak in an exasperated voice towards her.

IF I were going to use a board and train, I would be asking all over about the trainer's style and history and education etc. I'd be asking other trainers- including ones that train with very different methods. I'd be asking other breeders, sport clubs, rescue groups, etc. Preferably in person so you can see their body language when they respond. I'd be asking the trainer what well-known or celebrity trainers and behaviorists they admire. I'd ask details from previous clients, of course anybody is only going to give referrals to previous clients who were happy with their work but you can gather more information to see if the trainer is a fit for you. 
I'd want to know how the trainer socializes the pup with other dogs and kids. Whose dogs, whose kids? Where?


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

As a proffesional dog trainer, might I say the most important part of puppy training from a trainer isn't what the puppy learns, its what YOU learn. there are not nearly enough benefits in my mind and far too many negatives. You should be at EVERY training session with your dog. obviously before 8 weeks the earliest of house training and mouth inhibition should come from the breeder. any professional relationship tied in like a breeder to a trainer and vice-verse would be extremely suspect, its a self fulfilling loop. 

If the breeder is more interested in the next litter than the present one then she shouldn't be milling the pups out so fast.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Honestly I think it is BS that you are having to pay more money for the breeder to hold your pup. Her friend and business partner I understand as she is offering a service, but why $12/a day? Has she explained that to you? Unless there is some super compelling reason, I think they are just trying to take more of your money. 

I know you say you have a good relationship with them, but it is my understanding that you haven't met in person yet, correct? I'm not saying relationships and contacts formed on the Internet aren't valid or real (else I wouldn't be on DF) but unless you Skype someone you really have no idea who they are. You can type whatever you want in an email. (Note: this is me being very cynical).

I'm also just poking holes in your story because I think you really like this breeder and really want a puppy but this is obviously something you need to consider. I know you just want to do what's best by your other posts here.

You read Xeph's thread right? That is one example of a good breeding practices and I would compare your breeder to them. Not saying Xeph is the Holy Goddess of Dog Breeding (just GSDs ) but just something to consider. Or Keechak. Or the user who bred rotties that I think no longer posts?

And as Shell said, your breeder and the trainer/person raising your puppy are business partners and friends and (cynical cynical cynical) have reasons to collude against you (or at least milk you for your money).

All that being said I hope your breeder and boarder are wonderful people and you have a wonderful time but I would not be paying extra money. OR for shots. The dog isn't in your care yet and you would already be paying an outrageous fee. Why do you need to line their pockets even more?

NOTE: I love breeders. This is not a conspiracy post about how greedy breeders are out to take all our monies.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

You're going to do what you want to do, that's fine. But PLEASE take into account the fact that no one here seems comfortable with an arrangement like this. For the pup's sake AND yours.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

This all sounds very strange. Are you able to see the parents on site? Go visit the breeder?


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## FirstTimeLabMomma (Dec 3, 2014)

Yes and yes, we are meeting the breeder, parents, and trainer next month


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

You've gathered some great advice here. I will only add that my rough collie will be ready to come home in about a week and a half from being bred. However we're going to Texas right after Christmas. I told my breeder I would be more than happy to have her back home but she will have to be boarded while we're in Texas and I was worried it would be too much stress on her to be switching homes so much. My breeder agreed and is keeping her until we get back after the new year, and getting her spayed (she is 3). No extra charges, and my dog will be happier.

I think all breeders should have a forever spot in their homes for any of their dogs. I personally don't think your breeder should be charging you for keeping your puppy home with her for a couple of extra weeks.

Edit-spelling.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Labs are common as crumbs in the US and this arrangement sounds sketchy. I'd find a different litter.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Kyndall54 said:


> I think all breeders should have a forever spot in their homes for any of their dogs. I personally don't think your breeder should be charging you for keeping your puppy home with her for a couple of extra weeks.


Yes, this is one of the things that really bothers me about the whole situation.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well it will be interesting and I'm hoping OP will keep us updated. This could be a fairy tale that stays a fairy tale, or a fairy tale that ends a scary tale.

I do agree that there are many decent Lab breeders around.


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