# Questions and Concerns before owning a dog.



## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I am going to be 18 soon and have had my heart set on a dog for years, german shepherd to be specific. I just have a few questions so I know what I'm doing. 

-What is your stance on crate training, I was thinking about getting crate for my dog. I dont know if I want my dog running around the house if im not home, or while im asleep. (is sleeping in the bed ok?)

-What are the most important vaccinations, I know some are optional and do more harm 
than good. 

-What preventative measures can you take so your dog wont want to chew up your furniture?

-I would like the dog to be aloof around others, especially if I have visitors. But not overprotective unless I was in danger. (Which I'm not too worried about)

-How many times a day would I walk my puppy?

-How many times should I feed him?

-How do I teach my puppy to stay? 

-What are some telltale signs to know when my dog has to use the bathroom

Sorry im asking so many questions but I am trying to cover everything.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm putting my comments in bold below to make it easier to read



Tyler_X said:


> I am going to be 18 soon and have had my heart set on a dog for years, german shepherd to be specific. I just have a few questions so I know what I'm doing.
> 
> *Are you going to college or moving out into an apartment? It can be very hard to rent with a larger dog, especially a breed like a GSD. If you are living at home, is everyone at home going to be on-board with having a dog? Also, look to the future because even if you are at home now and there is no problem having a large dog of a breed that can often be black-listed by apartments and insurance companies, there could be in 5 years or 10 years.*
> 
> ...


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Tyler_X said:


> I am going to be 18 soon and have had my heart set on a dog for years, german shepherd to be specific. I just have a few questions so I know what I'm doing.
> 
> -What is your stance on crate training, I was thinking about getting crate for my dog. I dont know if I want my dog running around the house if im not home, or while im asleep. (is sleeping in the bed ok?)


Crating is a personal choice (as is sleeping in your bed). I've found that having a dog who is happy in the crate to be a huge advantage in many situations: stays at the vet, traveling and staying in hotels or homes, attending dog-specific events where dogs may need to be crated at times. There are additional times when crating may be helpful as well. Crates also offer safe places for puppies and untrustworthy dogs. Certainly one can use puppy/dog-proofed rooms or ex-pens, but they're not as flexible as a crate. 

My older dog sleeps in our bed. The downside is that I often get pushed out. 



> -What are the most important vaccinations, I know some are optional and do more harm than good.


This is really dependent on your area and your vet. Your vet will be the person best able to give you the an answer customized to your situation. In most areas of the US (I don't know much about canine disease in other areas of the world), most vets will give a distemper, hepatitis (aka adenovirus), parvovirus, and parainfluenza. In some areas and depending on lifestyle, vets will also recommend vaccines for leptospirosis and/or Lyme; however, many people choose not to give lepto or Lyme. The corona vaccine is controversial. Bordatella (aka kennel cough) is often required for classes, boarding, and grooming; it seems fairly innocuous.

In the US (except maybe Hawaii?), rabies vaccination is required on a certain schedule required by law.

Many people opt to give minimal vaccines: puppy series + one year booster; some folks will titer beyond that. 



> -What preventative measures can you take so your dog wont want to chew up your furniture?


My dogs don't have unsupervised access to furniture and other non-chewables until they're older (i.e., past puppy and teething stage). Right now, our puppy is in the kitchen with me, actively supervised (as in eyes on him at all times) in other rooms, or crated. If he looks at something a little too long for my liking, he's called to me and offered an appropriate chew. In the kitchen and bedroom, he has a selection of toys for play and chewing.



> -I would like the dog to be aloof around others, especially if I have visitors. But not overprotective unless I was in danger. (Which I'm not too worried about)


That's partly a breed trait and partly training. You can train your dog to not approach others unless given the ok by you. Others can talk about protectiveness, but it's generally not a trait you want nor a behavior you'd want to train unless you are _very_ experienced.



> -How many times a day would I walk my puppy?


Walk or take out for potty breaks? Walks often will need to be limited to areas where other dogs haven't been (depends on your area - talk to your vet) until your puppy finishes puppy vaccines. A general rule of thumb is 5 minutes for every month of age per session; I wouldn't do more than 2 or 3 for a very young pup.

Potty breaks will need to be more frequent: after eating, playing, and waking, plus every 15-30 minutes while awake for young pups. As they get older, breaks can be spaced longer apart. A lot will depend on your pup; you may need more or less frequent breaks.



> -How many times should I feed him?


Generally 3 times a day until about 6 months, then twice a day. Some dogs do well with once a day feeding, others do better with more frequent meals. My 3yr old gets 3 meals a day to prevent "hunger pukes."



> -How do I teach my puppy to stay?


Search for "Ian Dunbar dog star daily" for a free training text and look for kikopup on youtube. Both are great resources for basic training needs.



> -What are some telltale signs to know when my dog has to use the bathroom


I don't wait for my dogs to signal; I take them out on a regular schedule. Some dogs will go to the door, some will scratch, some are taught to ring bells. For puppies, circling and sniffing are good signs.



> Sorry im asking so many questions but I am trying to cover everything.


Asking questions is how you learn! Don't be afraid to ask!


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Everyone would be on board with it, and for the immediate future I am going to stay where I am now, but I would accommodate for the dog when finding a new place when I do reach the time to move out


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Cookieface suggested these two free downloads: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads Get them now and start reading.

Learn about Bite Inhibition and Socialization. Teach your puppy to be as friendly as possible. Later, when he's older, you can decide if you want to train him to be more 'aloof'.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

German Shepherds are a lot of dog, especially for a new dog owner. I'm not just talking size. They are smart, motivated, high energy dogs. If you don't give them enough mental and physical exercise, they will find something to do with their time, and you will not like it. That aloof and protective personality everyone likes turns into fear and aggression if they aren't properly socialized and that socialization needs to be maintained throughout their lives. GSDs have a tendency towards dog aggression as well. You can't socialize that out, but you can train them to behave.

You MUST get your GSD from an ethical breeder if you're going to get a puppy. Poorly bred GSDs are a heartbreak waiting to happen with bad hips and worse temperaments. Adult rescue GSDs that are temperament tested by the rescue are another option. GSD puppies from ethical breeders will run around $1,500 (US) and there will be a wait of several months to a year or more. It may be very difficult for an 18 year old to get a GSD from an ethical breeder or a rescue, but that's not an excuse to buy from a puppy mill or back yard breeder.

Honestly, I'd suggest that an 18 year old new to dog ownership get a mellow adult mix from a rescue.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Call me old fashioned, but I crate trained my dogs, I don't let my dogs have the run of the house, sleep in the bed etc until they have shown they have earned it! And that is done in stages, I thought Josefina would never be able to be out of a crate, it was most three years before I could even leave her out while I was there at night. until she proved to me she could handle it while I was there, I kept her crated when I wasn't there. 

Izze I never crated, she just never took to it. So it depends on the dog.


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## Skipper'D (Aug 18, 2014)

I love the GSD and have had one most of my life..As already posted, a GSD is a lot of dog, however, IMO/E it is a crap shoot either way in regards to getting a puppy without issues. I bought a GSD 9wk old puppy from a breeder with all the bells and whistles-test, titled parents...etc.....and while he was a beautiful animal he was a mess medically, mentally and physically-had nothing but one problem after another-not only did the puppy itself cost well over 3k the medical bill tripled that by the time he was 3 years old-sadly it didn't end well.
Then I got Sipper'D=he is a AKC white GSD no special lines, byb accident litter that I paid only a mere $100.00 for-no test on parents-no bells or whistles etc....and so far this has been the best dog I have ever owned, however, he is only 20mo old and hip/elbow problems could still show up-It didn't show up on my 3k parent certified hip/elbow bells and whistle pup until he was near 2.

My point being.....based on my personal experience owning 3 GSD at 3 different times-The 2 that didn't cost much were healthier and more stable than the one I paid a lot of money for-IMO/E its a crap shoot either way-maybe I just got lucky with the 2 cheap GSD and really unlucky with the other one.

IMO/E this is an awesome breed of dog and as already posted-they can be a lot of work and you have to be dedicated, ready and able to provide for its needs and training, however, this is true for any large working breed. The GSD isn't a breed you can just toss in the backyard then bring out on occasion to show off, play etc.....neither of you will be happy.....but I also don't think you are limited on the breed based on your age-provided that you have a plan and it sounds like you have already done some research....

What are your plans by the way-this can also make a difference IMO....


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I got a GSD before I was really ready for it to be honest and while he is very healthy physically, mentally he is a mess. Like everyone said that protectiveness can turn into something very ugly if you are not prepared, Eko (my GSD) became very aggressive to strangers and other animals right around 1 year old. I think this is around the age people start having a lot of problems with GSDs, when you first get the puppy they are nippy but once you take care of that they are great. Then they start to mature and suddenly you have a dog who is still young and insecure but very big and with big teeth. If you want a GSD to be your first dog I really hope you take the dog to some puppy training classes and know who the private trainers are in your area with GSD experience just in case. Trust me you don't want to be that person walking their dog with a bright yellow "caution" leash and a muzzle... granted Eko is a much more nervous dog than most, we were only making very small and slow steps forward in his training until he was put on medication.

I don't mean to talk you out of it, I also love GSDs and will always have one, they are amazing dogs!


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I found a very respected and reputable breeder through the vet, and she was very concise and thorough with me, removing any previous doubts or concerns i had, i will be putting my puppy in obedience training, also the breeder says she likes to keep them until 12 weeks because GSD go through fear period 9-11 weeks and whatever happens then could affect them for the rest of their life,


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

there is a waiting period on the litter and the breeder wants to see me before she puts me on her list, which is reassuring because she just doesnt give them to anyone. Also she likes to keep 1 out of the litter for her own, which makes me think shes a good breeder. She wouldn't want to keep a bad dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> German Shepherds are a lot of dog, especially for a new dog owner. I'm not just talking size. They are smart, motivated, high energy dogs. If you don't give them enough mental and physical exercise, they will find something to do with their time, and you will not like it. That aloof and protective personality everyone likes turns into fear and aggression if they aren't properly socialized and that socialization needs to be maintained throughout their lives. GSDs have a tendency towards dog aggression as well. You can't socialize that out, but you can train them to behave.
> 
> You MUST get your GSD from an ethical breeder if you're going to get a puppy. Poorly bred GSDs are a heartbreak waiting to happen with bad hips and worse temperaments. Adult rescue GSDs that are temperament tested by the rescue are another option. GSD puppies from ethical breeders will run around $1,500 (US) and there will be a wait of several months to a year or more. It may be very difficult for an 18 year old to get a GSD from an ethical breeder or a rescue, but that's not an excuse to buy from a puppy mill or back yard breeder.
> 
> Honestly, I'd suggest that an 18 year old new to dog ownership get a mellow adult mix from a rescue.


Also I would stay away from the working line shepherd, those would definately he too much for you to handle


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

what type is this, photo from breeders site


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I dont want any other type of dog. I think a gsd was also better than my first choice. I dont think getting a dog I'm not interested in is a good idea. i want to put my time effort money and attention into a dog i actually want.I'm determined to make my dog a great dog if and when i get it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm not a GSD expert but I don't think they have a split like some breeds do where you could tell visually whether they were working bred or not. It's more of a temperament and energy level thing.


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## Godwit (Apr 7, 2014)

Tyler_X said:


> I dont want any other type of dog. I think a gsd was also better than my first choice. I dont think getting a dog I'm not interested in is a good idea. i want to put my time effort money and attention into a dog i actually want.I'm determined to make my dog a great dog if and when i get it.


The reason people are telling you about their experiences with GSD is to give you an idea of what you are in for. One of the many reasons dogs end up in shelters is because they are too high maintenance, high energy, and a lot of work for the family. That's how my best friend got her GSD, she found him at the shelter at 6 months because his first family couldn't handle him. She only goes to school, so she has been able to devote herself to her dog full time. This dog has many MANY fear and confidence issues, as well as health problems (hip displaysia before 1 year of age, allergies, etc.), and it is a full time job training-wise to keep him well-rounded and healthy. I'd never recommend a GSD, husky, or any other breed originally intended to work all day for a new dog owner simply because I think they require experience and time to handle. It is great that you are doing research and asking questions, but you are young and if you're going to college you'll have a lot of school work ahead of you, a social life, dating, and perhaps even working if you're like me. All of these things take away from the time you will have to devote to a high-energy, intelligent dog that NEEDS you. A smaller dog, with a better reputation for health and temperament, moderate exercise requirements, and that high train-ability that you want with a GSD is likely to give you a much better experience being a first-time dog owner.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Godwit said:


> The reason people are telling you about their experiences with GSD is to give you an idea of what you are in for. One of the many reasons dogs end up in shelters is because they are too high maintenance, high energy, and a lot of work for the family. That's how my best friend got her GSD, she found him at the shelter at 6 months because his first family couldn't handle him. She only goes to school, so she has been able to devote herself to her dog full time. This dog has many MANY fear and confidence issues, as well as health problems (hip displaysia before 1 year of age, allergies, etc.), and it is a full time job training-wise to keep him well-rounded and healthy. I'd never recommend a GSD, husky, or any other breed originally intended to work all day for a new dog owner simply because I think they require experience and time to handle. It is great that you are doing research and asking questions, but you are young and if you're going to college you'll have a lot of school work ahead of you, a social life, dating, and perhaps even working if you're like me. All of these things take away from the time you will have to devote to a high-energy, intelligent dog that NEEDS you. A smaller dog, with a better reputation for health and temperament, moderate exercise requirements, and that high train-ability that you want with a GSD is likely to give you a much better experience being a first-time dog owner.


It seems like the biggest issue is having enough time devoted to the dog, which I will have, I plan on taking night classes but it shouldnt interfere with my dog (there is a waiting period before I would even be able to get one, so I plan on getting as much done as I can just to help for when the time comes I may be an owner), my step dad has also offered to watch over the dog while i go to class. I have a good sized fenced in backyard for him to run around and play. I plan on socializing him with everyone and everything as soon as possible so he is a confident secure dog. I will also take into account how he will need his time directed towards something constructive, so the dog doesnt feel compelled to chew up everything in sight and or become a mean dog. I didnt think it was worth mentioning but I do have some experience with dogs, My uncle who passed away last year has a chocolate lab that is now 11 and a half years old (she outlived her original owner), i have known her since she was a puppy. I didnt not take part in the daily raising of her but i did help out at times.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

do you think a black lab would be a better first dog?


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

i only see myself having one dog, id probably become so emotionally attached to the guy id be too sad to get another, haha


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> do you think a black lab would be a better first dog?


Personally, I think an adult lab would make a great first dog. With an adult dog, you can get right to the fun stuff of walking, hiking, taking him to parks or friends houses, playing fetch etc and skip the land shark biting stage and the needing to pee every 20 minutes stage. 
A Lab puppy may still be a better choice than a GSD in terms of being more "forgiving" to training mistakes and possibly a lesser chance of dog aggression or misguided protectiveness. It is also generally easier to rent with a Lab than with a GSD (assuming the Lab looks like a purebred Lab) and easier to get homeowners or renters insurance too. 
That said, it sounds like you're doing your research well now and especially if you have the time and also take some classes with a good trainer, then if a GSD is the best fit for you, it could work. 

What specific traits about the GSD appeal to you?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Labs can be fairly "easy" dogs in the sense that they tend to be more forgiving of owner mistakes and are generally easy to train and friendly. 

How much and what type of research have you done on GSD? Have you talked to folks knowledgeable about the breed? Owners? Breeders? Rescue folks? It sounds as though you've done some research and, clearly, are planning ahead (which puts you a step ahead of many people), but have you really learned what living with a GSD will mean? 

Most reputable breeders will talk to you about their breed, tell you the good and - importantly - the bad, and give you a sense of what to expect. It's one thing to see a well-trained, adult dog or visit a friend with dogs and it's quite another to raise a puppy (through the bite everyone, pee on everything stage) and live with the puppy/dog day after day.


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## Godwit (Apr 7, 2014)

I think a lab is an excellent choice for a new owner, though are still very high energy and are known to be big on chewing. despite that, they are a very loving, smart breed. Once they get out of their long teenage stage they are great pets. My first dog was a lab cross and she was amazing. Of course, because they are so popular, you'll really need to do your research and make sure you are choosing a breeder who does tons of health testing. Alternatively, you can get a young adult or adult from a rescue because they are a very popular breed there are more than enough great dogs to go around.
Other dogs I'd recommend for first time owners would be a golden retriever (much like a lab but a more mellow, gentle temperament), cocker spaniel, and sheltie. All smaller, easy breeds that are still very smart and can keep up with an active lifestyle.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

i want a puppy i wanna raise one from start to finish i think it would feel more rewarding in the end. I enjoy the companionship and loyalty a GSD has, i think they are very intelligent, beautiful dogs (especially when black) i want a confident dog, i also like the fact they are on the larger scale. I think the biggest thing im worried about is them being too overprotective, but with the right environment and training that shouldnt be an issue in my honest opinion. I would like my dog to know the difference between if Im ok or in danger. I see the GSD as a companion overall though, NOT a watchdog.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

this particular GSD breeder has information going back 5-6 generations and she says she has taken the time to breed out health problems,


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## Godwit (Apr 7, 2014)

Tyler_X said:


> i want a puppy i wanna raise one from start to finish i think it would feel more rewarding in the end. I enjoy the companionship and loyalty a GSD has, i think they are very intelligent beautiful dogs (especially when black) i also like the fact they are on the larger scale. I think the biggest thing im worried about is them being too overprotective, but with the right environment and training that shouldnt be an issue in my honest opinion. I would like my dog to know the difference between if Im ok or in danger. I see the GSD as a companion overall though, NOT a watchdog.


If you want a companion dog, a lab is PERFECT for you. And keep in mind, if you have a bond with your dog they will protect you if necessary, no matter the breed.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

i was told of an obedience class through my breeder, http://k-9connection.net/


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

i do like big dogs though, haha


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> i want a puppy i wanna raise one from start to finish i think it would feel more rewarding in the end. I enjoy the companionship and loyalty a GSD has, i think they are very intelligent beautiful dogs (especially when black) i also like the fact they are on the larger scale. I think the biggest thing im worried about is them being too overprotective, but with the right environment and training that shouldnt be an issue in my honest opinion. I would like my dog to know the difference between if Im ok or in danger. I see the GSD as a companion overall though, NOT a watchdog.


Some people do really enjoy the puppy phase, but it is also good to keep in mind that you can bond just as strongly and have just as close of companion and working relationship with an adult dog as one raised from a puppy. Labs are also a strong companion breed and very loyal- there is a reason they are common as service dogs. There are also other breeds of dogs which may suit you so meeting as many different breeds is a good idea if you're wanting a purebred puppy. Going to dog events- both formal like AKC shows and informal like "Bark in the Park" type things may be really helpful. With an adult rescue, you can see that individual's personality and traits but for a puppy, you're kind of guessing based off breed traits and the breeder's goals (herding, agility whatever).



Tyler_X said:


> this particular GSD breeder has information going back 5-6 generations and she says she has taken the time to breed out health problems,


It is a good sign that your breeder has information going back several generations but while careful breeding can significantly reduce certain health problems, not all can be completely bred out. You'll want to look at the OFA records for those generations of dogs. Also, and this applies to any breed of dog, keep in mind there can be major unexpected health costs so start a savings account right away and possibly look into pet insurance.



Godwit said:


> If you want a companion dog, a lab is PERFECT for you. And keep in mind, if you have a bond with your dog they will protect you if necessary, no matter the breed.


 I wouldn't ever rely on a pet dog to protect "if necessary" 
A large dog can be a good deterrent and alert barking within the house can be a deterrent but that doesn't mean that a companion dog would or even could protect you, no matter how bonded you are.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

It seems.like there are.risks no matter the breed, it mostly depends on how theyre brought up. Sorry for the bad grammar im.on my.phone.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> It seems.like there are.risks no matter the breed, it mostly depends on how theyre brought up. Sorry for the bad grammar im.on my.phone.


Well, yes and no. Breed traits are real and some things are a lot harder to train out or train around than others. Every dog is an individual so there are variations and exceptions to any general personality trait but they are a good place to start thinking from. For example, terriers _tend_ to have high prey drive and can be harder to keep around cats and small animals. Some hound breeds are bred to work in packs so they have a lower chance of having dog aggression than some other breeds. Huskies and northern breeds are often escape artists and love to run for the sake of running so they can be harder to train for off-leash. Not that you can't train them, just that its easier to start with a breed that has traits that match up with your lifestyle and interests and enhance those traits rather than one that isn't as good of a match and try to work against those traits.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Yeah. Thats why i said mostly cause there are just genetic behaviors


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

You've already gotten some great advice, but I wanted to add in my thoughts as well. Take this all from the perspective of someone who got a German Shepherd puppy as a first dog at age 15. 



Tyler_X said:


> what type is this, photo from breeders site


The breeder owns and breeds American show lines 



ireth0 said:


> I'm not a GSD expert but I don't think they have a split like some breeds do where you could tell visually whether they were working bred or not. It's more of a temperament and energy level thing.


No, they definitely have a fairly clear split and it's usually fairly easy to tell visually. Not always, because you have variety even within the same types, but generally (and especially on breeder websites) the physical aspect is a big part of it. 



Tyler_X said:


> It seems like the biggest issue is having enough time devoted to the dog, which I will have, I plan on taking night classes but it shouldnt interfere with my dog (there is a waiting period before I would even be able to get one, so I plan on getting as much done as I can just to help for when the time comes I may be an owner), my step dad has also offered to watch over the dog while i go to class.


No, I would not consider that the biggest issue. A lot of people have time, but not a lot of them would be good GSD owners. It's more of what that time is spent doing with the dog, the effort you put into socializing and training, and your willingness to live with a highly active, very intelligent, very boisterous dog, to manage that dog in public, to be patient and consistent, and to always continue learning about your dog and how to work best with him. Training isn't quite as easy as 1-2-3 and sure, even if you teach your dog to sit and stay reliably, he still might bark at the doorbell, chase cats, scream inside cars, be dog reactive, go through periods of fear, growl over food, refuse to come when called at the sight of another dog, etc. 

Not trying to scare you, and I don't mean to say that owning a dog is going to be a disaster... just reminding you to be prepared, and that the energy and amount of learning you do will cost you much more than time. You have to have time, but that's just the starting point. 



Tyler_X said:


> I have a good sized fenced in backyard for him to run around and play. I plan on socializing him with everyone and everything as soon as possible so he is a confident secure dog.


Which is great, but just remember that you will still most likely need to supervise him in the backyard and play WITH him. German Shepherds are very handler oriented dogs and if let out, would prefer to sit at the door waiting for their person than entertain themselves. 

And socializing is definitely a good idea, but remember, socializing doesn't just mean letting your puppy meet new dogs and people. It means keeping those experiences positive and controlled. 



Tyler_X said:


> I didnt think it was worth mentioning but I do have some experience with dogs, My uncle who passed away last year has a chocolate lab that is now 11 and a half years old (she outlived her original owner), i have known her since she was a puppy. I didnt not take part in the daily raising of her but i did help out at times.


Good news - you have more experience than I did when I got my GSD puppy!

Bad news - unfortunately, it may or may not actually make a difference. Knowing puppies and having helped out with them is very different from being 100% responsible for one. That can be a lot of pressure! You're the sole guardian/parent/caretaker of a baby animal that is just soaking up knowledge and constantly learning, learning, learning. A lot of what a puppy learns and experiences can have a relatively large impact on it later in life, which is pretty crazy if you think about it. 

You're the one making decisions about what is best for your puppy and the one trying to set things up so he can be the best dog he can be. There's a lot to learn so I strongly recommend maintaining a good relationship with the breeder and a trainer that you trust, whose methods you agree with. 



Tyler_X said:


> do you think a black lab would be a better first dog?


Shell brought up some great points so I quoted the post again below. Labrador Retrievers are easier dogs in a lot of ways, and generally speaking you do get a more forgiving, more "stable", more appeasing dog. But that said, it really depends on why it is you want a GSD vs. a Lab. Would a Lab be a better first dog for me? No way, because I just don't click with them. But for you? From what you're saying later on in this thread, it seems like a very big possibility. 



Shell said:


> Personally, I think an adult lab would make a great first dog. With an adult dog, you can get right to the fun stuff of walking, hiking, taking him to parks or friends houses, playing fetch etc and skip the land shark biting stage and the needing to pee every 20 minutes stage.
> A Lab puppy may still be a better choice than a GSD in terms of being more "forgiving" to training mistakes and possibly a lesser chance of dog aggression or misguided protectiveness. It is also generally easier to rent with a Lab than with a GSD (assuming the Lab looks like a purebred Lab) and easier to get homeowners or renters insurance too.
> That said, it sounds like you're doing your research well now and especially if you have the time and also take some classes with a good trainer, then if a GSD is the best fit for you, it could work.
> 
> What specific traits about the GSD appeal to you?


x2



Godwit said:


> If you want a companion dog, a lab is PERFECT for you. And keep in mind, if you have a bond with your dog they will protect you if necessary, no matter the breed.


That's not true. Sure, sometimes dogs step up to the plate even when you don't expect it, and successfully fight off an assailant. But for every one of those dogs, there are 10 more that don't, and often the owners will say "oh I really thought he would protect us, he always barks at the door and in the car!" or "he was barking and tried to bite but ran away crying when he got kicked". 

Those dogs that don't successfully protect aren't any less bonded to or loved by their owners. They just don't have it in them, simple as that. In fact, there are very, very few untrained and untested dogs that I can 100% guarantee will _successfully _protect their handlers from a truly determined assailant. 

And yes, breed matters. A Fila Brasileiro is more likely to protect than a Golden Retriever would. A Belgian Malinois, more likely than an American Pit Bull Terrier. Some dogs think the world revolves around their handlers but their reactions are too fear based to make them successfully protective. And some dogs are PP trained, handed off to a new handler, but can and will protect them against a threat. 



Tyler_X said:


> i want a puppy i wanna raise one from start to finish i think it would feel more rewarding in the end. I enjoy the companionship and loyalty a GSD has, i think they are very intelligent beautiful dogs (especially when black) i also like the fact they are on the larger scale. I think the biggest thing im worried about is them being too overprotective, but with the right environment and training that shouldnt be an issue in my honest opinion. I would like my dog to know the difference between if Im ok or in danger. I see the GSD as a companion overall though, NOT a watchdog.


It's certainly rewarding if done right, but it's also easy to go wrong with a puppy! To be quite honest, there are a LOT of things I did wrong with my GSD puppy. Even now, I see my 5 1/2 year old dog do things that make me think "shoot, I really wish I did ____ better when he was a puppy". Just two days ago I was lamenting to a friend, telling her I wish I could go back 5 years and raise him as a puppy all over again. It's not that he turned out poorly, it's just that with what I know now, I could have done a lot better. 

That said, no guarantee that an adult dog won't have issues you wish you could have gone back and fixed either! Just letting you know that sometimes, raising puppies isn't what it's all cracked up to be. 



Tyler_X said:


> this particular GSD breeder has information going back 5-6 generations and she says she has taken the time to breed out health problems,


Which is great, but I think you misunderstood her. You can't simply "breed out health problems". You can health test your dogs, only breed the best of your stock, and stack the odds in your favor... but sometimes bad luck is bad luck. A dog can come from 10 generations of dogs with perfect hips/elbows/heart etc. and still develop those issues. To buy from a conscientious breeder with health tested dogs definitely lessens your odds, but it is inaccurate to say that health problems have been completely bred out.



Tyler_X said:


> i do like big dogs though, haha


Is this in comparison to Labs? Because usually I see German Shepherds and Labs as being similar size-wise. Maybe a bit bigger, but German Shepherds are medium-large dogs, ranging from 50ish - 90 lbs usually. My dog is on the tall end of the standard at 26" or 27" at the withers (shoulders) but ideally he weighs 78 lbs. He's fat now at 83 lbs and it drives me crazy 



Tyler_X said:


> It seems.like there are.risks no matter the breed, it mostly depends on how theyre brought up. Sorry for the bad grammar im.on my.phone.


Again, Shell answered this very well already. Like she said, it's yes and no. It really depends on what traits you're talking about and often it's not "mostly" a matter of how they're brought up. For one, health risks come to mind. But also issues like fear, poor nerves, dog aggression, chasing prey, etc.



Shell said:


> Well, yes and no. Breed traits are real and some things are a lot harder to train out or train around than others. Every dog is an individual so there are variations and exceptions to any general personality trait but they are a good place to start thinking from. For example, terriers _tend_ to have high prey drive and can be harder to keep around cats and small animals. Some hound breeds are bred to work in packs so they have a lower chance of having dog aggression than some other breeds. Huskies and northern breeds are often escape artists and love to run for the sake of running so they can be harder to train for off-leash. Not that you can't train them, just that its easier to start with a breed that has traits that match up with your lifestyle and interests and enhance those traits rather than one that isn't as good of a match and try to work against those traits.


x2 again.

Here's my general experience in getting a GSD as a student - it's a lot of work, and having the time and energy only plays a small part of that. This is a breed that benefits from working with you all the time and being kept active mentally on a regular basis. Not in the sense that this dog is always go-go-go, but this is a strong minded breed and your dog may give himself a job if you don't give one to him. Chances are, you won't like the job your dog has picked. 

This is not a breed you passively own. It's a very active/present kind of ownership, where your dog isn't just a pet you have but also a dog that should be worked with. 

Okay, and to be fair, this is only my experience with my own dog, who is relatively high drive for a pet dog. I don't have any experiences raising or owning other types of GSD yet so can only speak for myself. I highly recommend that you meet this breeder's dogs, and meet more GSDs in your area, and talk to more people to see if this is a dog you'd like to own. 

GSDs aren't a special breed of dog or anything like that, and in fact, my dog sleeps 20 hours out of the day. But he gets the structure and management that he needs to be the dog I want, and all his other crazy behaviors are tolerable because I really don't mind "bad dogs" lol. I just wish someone told me all of this when I decided to get a GSD because I thought they were cool  And for the record, it really is ridiculously difficult to rent with a large breed dog.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Yes i worded that wrong but breeder did mention certain health issues that have been diminished i plan on meeting breeder this week


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I feel like im being fed lots of different information it really feels like a hit and miss


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

When you say issues what do you mean I'm confused


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

LOL, I was just going to suggest that he sent a pm to you Equinox  Also, Xeph is a very good person to talk to about GSDs. I believe that PatriciafromCO has extensive GSD experience too.

Renting is a BIG deal. If you plan to rent within the next 15 years, you absolutely need to be prepared to search high and low for all-breed rentals and potentially to spend either a fair bit more in rent or to live in a less desirable neighborhood. Every day I see people giving up the typically banned breeds due to housing concerns (pits, GSDs, mastiffs and similar). In fact, that is how I got my dog Chester as he was surrendered at about 1.5 years old due to his previous owners moving and not being able to find housing for a 75 lbs dog (breed unknown but Ridgeback type with maybe Boxer or Rottie in the background). 
If I didn't own my home, I probably wouldn't have been able to adopt either of my dogs due to breed restrictions in rentals 

The other thing about personality traits is that is isn't just about training, it is about day to day life with the dog. For example, I have one dog who is very much the typical hound and one that is very much the typical bully breed. No matter what I do in training, the bully mix is going to be a velcro dog who wants to be near people and prefers to be touching a human whenever possible. She is even on the lesser side of velcro (since I dislike overly velcro) but she is still 10 times more "attached at the hip" than my hound. Whereas, my hound has an emotionally harder personality and is much more of a "What's in it for me?" kinda dog when training but is also more content to do his own thing around the house and yard. 

Both have all the normal pet dog training but their minds just plain work differently.

Edit:
By health "issues' she means things like hip dysplasia where by using x-rays to examine the breeding dogs and by checking the x-rays for those dogs' parents and grandparents, the breeder can reduce the chances of HD showing up in their puppies (by not breeding dogs with a certain level of HD or above). The chances are reduced but not eliminated as compared to a random selection type breeding.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

sorry if i dont sound specific enough at times, ofcourse im going to play with him outside...im not going to leave him unattended


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> Both have all the normal pet dog training but their minds just plain work differently.


YEP. 

I have a rat terrier, a chi mix, a border collie mix, a boston terrier and... a gsd/lgd mix.

Bottom line? They're different. They are all trained to about the same level, they all get about the same amount of exercise (a lot) and mental work. The all have different 'energies' and personalities, but the most different is hands down the GSD mutt. He's a mix. I'm not claiming he's exactly like a 'real' GSD. What I will say is that the differences I am going to talk about are things that I have seen quite often in purebred GSDs.

He is a demanding dog. It isn't a matter of needing training or exercise - well, not entirely or even mostly and not what I mean here. No matter how well trained and well exercised he is, he is a demanding dog. Everything he does, he does with intensity and he expects the same from me. If I am training him? I better be giving 200% of my attention to him and what we are doing. I better be up-beat, fast paced and my timing better be snappy and right. He isn't a dog I can train in a commercial break, or because I have 30 seconds and a treat in my hand. Play with him is the same thing. If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it with speed, intensity, and focus. If I am petting him or grooming him or ANYTHING, I have to be 200% WITH HIM. 

He's young. He'll continue to settle more with time, but the bottom line is that he's not a passive dog and he does not want or accept passive companionship as 'enough'. I mean he'll chill out on the floor if nothing else is going on, but that's not what he wants out of life, and it isn't meeting his needs. Owning him, even after decades of dog experience, can be really, really exhausting. Add in reactivity, drive, sharpness and basic energy level and he's a lot of dog for anyone. 

Then you add in the LGD stuff and I need a nap. Frequently. Comparatively the other dogs are a cake walk.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Yes it takes time and patience i am willing to give


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm not talking about time.

I'm talking about focused attention. I can spend 24 hours a day with Thud and it won't meet his needs if I am not 200% engaged with him in a dedicated and focused way. For my other dogs, I can sit at the computer and do my work and throw a ball for them and they're being interacted with enough to be happy for a while. That doesn't work with Thud. I can not just exist in his space and have him be satisfied. I can not even exist in his space and pay some attention to him (throwing the ball while doing something else) and satisfy him. If I spend 24 hours sitting in a chair in a room with him, he IS NOT GOING TO BE HAPPY. If I spend all day in a room with him and go outside and throw a ball or take him on a run for four hours, but my attention is on thinking about work, doing work, or divide between him and anything else it doesn't matter how physically tired he is. He needs me 200% present with him, when I am with him. He can go without exercise for a couple of days. He can go with me being gone 12 hours in a day, plus 8 hours at night. What can not pass is that when I am with him, he needs me to be paying attention to him. To be up, active, engaged, focused on him to the exclusion of anything else.

I really don't know to be more clear about that. 

It's not exercise. It's not time. It's dedication and focused attention. Not while you study, not while you work, not even while you brood or just go through the motions.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I know what you're saying


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Having him in the same room as me but I'm on the computer that's not giving him my time in my opinion to give something your time is to give it your attention which is what you spent a paragraph saying. i guess we have different definitions


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> Having him in the same room as me but I'm on the computer that's not giving him my time in my opinion to give something your time is to give it your attention which is what you spent a paragraph saying. i guess we have different definitions


I think the key of what CptJack is saying is that all attention is not created equal.

If I am on my computer but Eva is laying on my lap, she counts that as quality time and "attention" whereas CptJack's Thud would not consider that attention. I just took Chester for a short walk (its HOT here) and I talked on the phone most of the time which he considers just fine as "attention" because he's got better things to do on a walk than interact with me like sniffing! and peeing! and sniffing more! but CptJack's Thud would not consider that attention.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Theres going to be a learning process finding what he responds best to


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> I think the key of what CptJack is saying is that all attention is not created equal.
> 
> If I am on my computer but Eva is laying on my lap, she counts that as quality time and "attention" whereas CptJack's Thud would not consider that attention. I just took Chester for a short walk (its HOT here) and I talked on the phone most of the time which he considers just fine as "attention" because he's got better things to do on a walk than interact with me like sniffing! and peeing! and sniffing more! but CptJack's Thud would not consider that attention.


Yeah, pretty much that.


It's not an easy thing to describe, but it's *not* time dependent, or activity dependent. Jack and Bug? They sleep in bed with us, they get a little casual training throughout the day, they hang out on the couch while we watch a movie, they nap under the desk on our feet during the day and while they still need exercise and love exercise, they've had enough *PEOPLE* in just being near us. Molly's like that but with greater need for physical exercise and mental stimulation. The thing is, though, I can train her casually while I'm at the desk. I can divide my attention between her and another dog, a kid, a television program or whatever. I can take her out in the yard, sit down and throw her ball/stick/toy and she's happy. She's interested more in the activity than me. Kylie? Kylie wants nothing but training, but she'll ALSO let me divide my attention to at least some degree and be gold. I can train her while talking to my husband between tricks, or stop and take a picture of a butterfly or answer a question one of my kid's asked.

I can't do any of that with Thud. I mean I can, but not if I want him to be reasonable and 'have had attention'. You don't THINK about anything with Thud while you're with Thud if you want it to have 'counted'. It's a really strange thing to be honest, that defies simply saying 'pay attention to the dog'. I mean how often does paying attention to the dog REALLY preclude being able to do or even THINK about anything else? Like I'm not even exaggerating if I am spending time with Thud it's either laser focus on the dog or don't even bother. And that's... not really what people think of when they think about spending time with their dog. That's not even what *I* think about when I think about spending time with the dog.

And yeah, I'm sure it's an individual dog thing and will take time to sort out. 

But "ALL OR NOTHING" is a thing, here. That's all I'm saying.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I think your dog thud sound like he has dependence issues. If all gsd were like that I'm not to sure they'd be as popular as they are. Certainly all gsd cant act like that. Even with training and discipline theyd still freak out?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> I think your dog thud sound like he has dependence issues. If all gsd were like that I'm not to sure they'd be as popular as they are


Nope. Zero separation anxiety, at all. I can and have left him alone for 18 hours a day during family emergencies. If I am not actively engaging him with that laser focus? He doesn't seen ANY REASON TO BE WITH ME. That is what I'm trying to get across. He wants my attention, yes. He wants to be with me, sure. but if I'm NOT going to be all the way there? He's not going to be there at all and sees no reason to bother with me. That means If I'm training him and distracted? He's not training. If I'm trying to play with him while I do something else? He ain't playing. He will, in fact, walk off and find something to do all by himself. He's actually pretty danged independent.

He has zero need to be on my ankles, because my physical presence means NOTHING to him. He's not going to sit around and wait and hope I half-heartedly pat him on the head, because he doesn't care about that. He's not going to hang on every word I have to say, because if I don't mean it? He doesn't CARE. 

He spends probably 3/4 of the day OUT of my presence amusing himself. 

But when it comes time to do things with him? You are going to DO THINGS WITH HIM, and if you aren't you may as well not even try. If you're not all in? He's all out.

And That is VERY typical GSD.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I appreciate all of your input it means alot for you all to take the time to help me.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

So pretty much you will get out of it what you put in?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> So pretty much you will get out of it what you put in?


That's a pretty good summation, actually. It's true to various degrees in most dogs - do the work or live with the consequences- but it's a lot more literal and more quickly obvious with Thud.

The statement about them not being particularly forgiving is true, too.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> I think your dog thud sound like he has dependence issues. If all gsd were like that I'm not to sure they'd be as popular as they are. Certainly all gsd cant act like that. Even with training and discipline theyd still freak out?


Thud isn't freaking out, its more about how a dog engages his mind with his handler.

But as far as GSDs in the general population and how they fare? Well, I've seen some amazing and well trained GSDs but I've also seen a fair number of neurotic messes (which Thud is not, btw). While not a proper statistical sample by any means, I've seen a higher percentage of human aggressive and/or dog aggressive GSDs than any other common breed around here. In part, because they are somewhat popular, they are all too often from poor breeders and they are often underestimated in terms of their needs. Human gets cute puppy and expects to walk him and throw a ball for him and teach him to sit and that to be enough and it just isn't.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I must admit i am now a tad discouraged my intentions are pure and i want to do the best i can but what if I'm not good enough for the dog i don't want to be a failure


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm trying to take the precautions necessary to make my dog the best it can. Who knows maybe he could be a CGC


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Shell said:


> LOL, I was just going to suggest that he sent a pm to you Equinox  Also, Xeph is a very good person to talk to about GSDs. I believe that PatriciafromCO has extensive GSD experience too.
> 
> Renting is a BIG deal. If you plan to rent within the next 15 years, you absolutely need to be prepared to search high and low for all-breed rentals and potentially to spend either a fair bit more in rent or to live in a less desirable neighborhood. Every day I see people giving up the typically banned breeds due to housing concerns (pits, GSDs, mastiffs and similar). In fact, that is how I got my dog Chester as he was surrendered at about 1.5 years old due to his previous owners moving and not being able to find housing for a 75 lbs dog (breed unknown but Ridgeback type with maybe Boxer or Rottie in the background).
> If I didn't own my home, I probably wouldn't have been able to adopt either of my dogs due to breed restrictions in rentals
> ...


Glad I saw this!! I don't frequent this section but had some extra time on my hands today (well, more than usual!). And I really agree with everything you've said. 

Renting is such a pain, even in a relatively dog friendly city, and if you're not dealing with breed restrictions then it's size restrictions. I had everything planned out when I got my dog, but it didn't work out. Why? Because I had to switch school last minute (personal/family reasons) and almost couldn't get a house for myself, nevermind for me and a dog. Life happens, and this is the stage where a lot of changes and general craziness takes place. Because of this, I ended up spending 1 1/2 to 2 years away from my dog while he lived with my parents. 



Tyler_X said:


> When you say issues what do you mean I'm confused


I got your PM but have to respond here in case you reply - my inbox is completely full! Anyway, it's hard to really show you what I mean, but I'll try. 

- He goes over threshold very, very quickly when it comes to triggers like outdoor cats, screaming/running children, and off leash dogs. 

- I sometimes think I spent too much time "socializing" him and not enough time teaching him to focus on me above anything. He is ridiculously interested in other dogs, though he doesn't enjoy playing with them 99% of the time. 

- When I left for the 1 1/2 - 2 years and he stayed with my parents, he got everything he wanted. If he wanted something, he screamed, whined, and ran around and they let him. This is still a problem now and I've only recently got some really good advice on how to work with this. 

- Once again, I needed to spend more time teaching him to choose NOT to "have fun" with distractions and instead, I should have made myself more rewarding. 

- I also did not bring out as much of the drive and intensity that I could have when he was a puppy. I spent too much time trying to make him a "good" dog and looking back, and considering the type of dog I NOW want, I wish I let him be more of an ass. 

Mostly it is the drive leaking and getting amped up over exciting things. I was also fairly inconsistent with important commands that I should NOT have used without a way to reinforce them. 



Tyler_X said:


> Yes i worded that wrong but breeder did mention certain health issues that have been diminished i plan on meeting breeder this week


That's good. The breeder seems to be doing the right things in showing and health testing her dogs, so hope the visit goes well! 



Tyler_X said:


> I think your dog thud sound like he has dependence issues. If all gsd were like that I'm not to sure they'd be as popular as they are. Certainly all gsd cant act like that. Even with training and discipline theyd still freak out?


Haha well to be honest... GSDs shouldn't be as popular as they are, and I simply do not understand why. I am a GSD person through and through, but they are NOT fun or good dogs for the average family or person to own. 



Tyler_X said:


> Yes it takes time and patience i am willing to give


But here's what everyone's getting at - all the time and patience in the world will not make a "good" dog unless it's applied correctly. Patience isn't just kindly and repeatedly asking dogs to do something until they get it right, and in many training scenarios that's the opposite of productive. 

Here's what I've recently learned. Sometimes patience is sitting in the car, listening to your dog screaming at the top of his lungs (destroying your ear buds in the process), hitting the window with his paws, and trying to run laps in the tiny space of the car because your dog is worked up and REALLY REALLY wants to get out of the car and into the pet store/house/training field/wherever you're taking him that's so exciting. Because maybe you drove 3 hours to get there and correcting your dog will get him even more excited, so all you can do is wait him out so you're only reinforcing good behavior and not insanity. 

Sometimes patience is wanting to take your dog to the beach and getting there, but then seeing about 50 dogs running around off leash. And your dog had a bad experience in the past and is only beginning to get over his fear, and you know you can't risk putting him in such an uncontrolled, overwhelming environment. So you get back in your car and leave. 

And even if you have the time to be with your dog 24/7, throwing him a ball 5 hours a day and letting him run off leash another 3 hours plus 5 more hours hiking isn't what he'll need. You need activities that call for _engagement _from _both _handler and dog. A GSD will thrive off of exercises that call for attentiveness to his owner/handler, and you will have to be equally attentive. And not just give him attention, but your full attention. Again, engagement is key.

Like I said here in my other post - This is not a breed you passively own. It's a very active/present kind of ownership, where your dog isn't just a pet you have but also a dog that should be worked with.

My dog has a lazy/do nothing mode and a training mode. There really isn't an in between for him - if I threw him a ball repeatedly while working from my computer, he just won't show any enthusiasm. In fact, he does not show any desire to play or train unless I am engaged 100%. Otherwise he will just do his own thing, which is his default "mode" (which may or may not be typical of the breed, as he is very independent for a GSD). And like CptJack's dog, my dog does not *need* me and is absolutely fine on his own. But when my dog is working with me (and I with him), he is the happiest and best behaved. 

It's strange how a dog that sleeps 20 hours of the day can be SO MUCH DOG, but that's how it is. He's easy, easy, easy to live with but when he is doing something he is doing it with full intensity.



Tyler_X said:


> I must admit i am now a tad discouraged my intentions are pure and i want to do the best i can but what if I'm not good enough for the dog i don't want to be a failure





Tyler_X said:


> I'm trying to take the precautions necessary to make my dog the best it can. Who knows maybe he could be a CGC


If you have done your research on the breed, spoken to those who are experienced with them, and met these dogs for yourself, and you genuinely, truly enjoy their temperament and "personality" then don't be discouraged! None of us are trying to force you to stay away from GSDs - rather, we want you to get a realistic idea of the kind of dog you MAY end up with, and the kind of work you'll have to put in to your dog. 

It's one of those things where if you really know you love the breed (and not just the idea of one), it'll be a good way to prepare yourself. If you wind up not enjoying the breed as much as you thought you would, those "quirks" that we described in our dogs may be something you absolutely do not want to deal with. Most of what I've said about GSDs is exactly why I love them. And maybe you would, too, because reading all this stuff from strangers online is hugely overwhelming. It might be different when you have the puppy yourself because sometimes doing something in practice is WAY easier than reading about it! It really all depends, which is why the #1 piece of advice is usually always to meet and work with these dogs yourself. 

Essentially, if I can do the puppy raising craziness as a 15 year old, just about anyone can. I was in over my head and got a very different dog than what I was expecting, but I survived  However, that's not the case for everyone, and you may have a very, very different idea of what you can and will be willing to live with. There is NOTHING wrong with that and that's why we have so many different breeds and varieties of dogs out there.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You did a much better job of explaining that than I did.

Also, yeah. I'm not saying you can't do it or that it's impossible at all. I'm not trying to discourage you or sway you away from the dog and I'm pretty sure nobody else here is, either. I'm a fairly vocal of supporter that there's no such thing as a beginner dog or 'advanced' ones (or easy or hard ones) just dogs that fit and dogs that don't. Owners amount to people who are dedicated to doing it right and who WANT to live with (or don't mind) some of the various brands of craziness spread across the assorted breeds.

All we're doing is making it clear what you may end up with, so you can decide if it's a deal breaker or not.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I want a nice loyal gsd I'm worried about having a mean dog


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Depends on what you mean by mean, honestly.

GSD aren't labs. They don't love everyone, they tend to be wary and suspicious of strangers and are protective. And all that's assuming proper socialization, training, and genetic temperament. They're not labs in black and tan coats, that's for sure.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I'm going to go see the breeder soon and see how i feel around the dogs


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

So when he does get worked up around strangers what's a good strategy so he doesn't freak out and try to chew on the person


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Some things that I suggest people consider about their lifestyle in regards to a potential dog:

Do you want a dog that is likely to be a good dog park dog?
Do you want a dog that is likely to be a good off-leash dog?
Do you want a dog that is likely to be able to live with cats or smaller animals?
Do you want a dog that doesn't need extensive grooming?
Do you want a dog that is very physically close to you (as in, pinned to your side)?
Or one that just enjoys being in your general area but doesn't need to follow you room to room?
Do you want a dog that generally loves people so that with basic socializing, you don't feel overly stressed about people meeting your dog?
Do you want a dog that is likely to be good around other dogs? Or are you fine with one that may tend towards dog aggression?
How much exercise can you provide daily and what type of exercise? 


Thinking about these things can help narrow down a breed or type.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Shell said:


> Some things that I suggest people consider about their lifestyle in regards to a potential dog:
> 
> Do you want a dog that is likely to be a good dog park dog?


-Yes, and GSD are capable of that, I have seen it.



Shell said:


> Do you want a dog that is likely to be a good off-leash dog?


-I would only plan on putting a leash on him when we go for walks but if hes in the backyard he can run around as long as im watching him



Shell said:


> Do you want a dog that is likely to be able to live with cats or smaller animals?


-I dont own any cats or smaller animals, what about little kids? I have 9 year old and 7 year old cousins.



Shell said:


> Do you want a dog that doesn't need extensive grooming?


-I dont mind brushing my dog. I was going to get a furminator brush.



Shell said:


> Do you want a dog that is very physically close to you (as in, pinned to your side)?
> Or one that just enjoys being in your general area but doesn't need to follow you room to room?


-I want a loyal companion dog that isnt just looking at me for its next meal, and I want a dog that if I have to leave the room he wont freak.



Shell said:


> Do you want a dog that generally loves people so that with basic socializing, you don't feel overly stressed about people meeting your dog?


-If I can get the dog i want to have basic socialization so they are aloof around people thats good enough for me honestly.



Shell said:


> Do you want a dog that is likely to be good around other dogs? Or are you fine with one that may tend towards dog aggression?


-I mean if im taking my dog for a walk me ending up passing another person whos walking their dog is most likely innevitable, but other than that im not too sure. about dog parks, they seem a little chaotic I think that situation would make me uncomfortable let alone my dog. Id like them to be aloof around dogs as well, which I think could be achieved through the correct training.



Shell said:


> How much exercise can you provide daily and what type of exercise?


-I would be able to walk him anytime during the day play fetch things of that nature. It would all depend on his energy level how much id have to exercise him.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Tyler_X said:


> So when he does get worked up around strangers what's a good strategy so he doesn't freak out and try to chew on the person


You aren't going to be able to train a GSD to not be protective and to love strangers but proper socialization should prevent the dog from freaking out. All I'm thinking is of the one time I had to go to the bathroom and my brothers dog was laying in the middle of the doorway growling at me and refusing to let me through to get upstairs to the bathroom and where my brothers bedroom was. That's that instinct to protect they have. Not even just with strangers but with people they know. I could literally hug that dog, kiss it's head, and lay on it but it wouldn't let me through the doorway when it's owner was upstairs in bed sleeping. 

My sisters GSD grabs her hand in its mouth whenever she tries to correct her children. It lays in bed with her kids when their sick and won't let the other animals near them. It actually corrects and herds the other animals in the house. 

It's still a puppy too. They're just naturally like that.

ETA: On another note, my sister has two kids, 3 cats, and 2 dogs and her GSD is doing fine. My brother has had over 4 single GSDs and now has about 14 and they were always fine. I don't find them difficult dogs at all. In other words, educate yourself but don't panic about being a horrible owner. You'll be fine.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I agree with everyone saying you need to actually do things with your GSD and be very involved. Eko loves to fetch, it's his favorite thing ever but unless I get excited and move around, give a lot of praise and make it interesting, he will get bored and just wander off. I don't know how else to explain it but it's like he loves constant feedback and direction from me. I love that about them, he's probably the smartest dog I've ever had. I think it's doable as a first dog but there are much easier breeds to start with. You have a lot of good info here I wish I had been to the forums BEFORE I got Eko, I've had to learn as I go and like others have said GSDs are less forgiving of handler mistakes.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

When you guys say less forgiving of handler mistakes what does that encompass


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks Shell, CptJack, and Equinox for sharing your knowledge and experiences. Your posts were very educational; although, I still want to spend a day with a GSD and responsible owner to fully understand "life with a Thud or Trent."


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> When you guys say less forgiving of handler mistakes what does that encompass


There are a few things, for me. Up there I said there are some dogs you get out more than you actually put in. You be a little (to a lot) lax with training or socialization, make mistakes and screw up in the methods of doing either and still end up with a really nice dog most of the time. Then there are other breeds for whom that's not quite so true. GSDs fall into the later category. 

The other thing is that there are dogs you can be a little unfair with because you're grumpy and having a bad day, or you can let something slide some because you just don't feel like bothering with it - like not stopping them from pulling that *one* time it's raining and your a block from home. It'll take you a little longer to get there, but you can be MOSTLY consistent with a lot of dogs without negative effects. Not the case with a lot of GSDs. 

Then there are matters of timing. You're trying to build duration or teach something new. The dog doesn't understand what you want and you're withholding the treat, so it gets frustrated. Or maybe your timing is just off and you're slow and lazy in throwing the ball or delivering the treat. Some dogs will get frustrated and bark. Some dogs will shut down and want to leave. Some dogs, many GSDs among them, will bark, rush at you, and grab at you with teeth. THIS IS NOT ALL GSDS. It *is* the case in those that are higher drive, and sharper. It is also the case with my mutt. 

Basically, I think the biggest downside about GSDs is all the same thing. When you are working with them, you really have very little leeway for being anything but on the ball and 'on'. There's just not a big margin of error. I heard someone say they don't want to work for you, they want to work WITH you. This seems accurate to me, but my dog's LESS biddable than the average GSD so you can take that with a grain of salt. OTOH, I've lived and worked with GSDs before and while they weren't the most suitable for pet homes (my father was a policeman, he worked with the K9 Unit so these were not show/pet dogs) the gist here is still pretty true for them. 

Individuals of course vary.



cookieface said:


> Thanks Shell, CptJack, and Equinox for sharing your knowledge and experiences. Your posts were very educational; although, I still want to spend a day with a GSD and responsible owner to fully understand "life with a Thud or Trent."


You can borrow Thud any time you want. You just have to take Molly, too, because they're attached at the hip.

Also he's a mutt, so I'm STILL kinda filtering out some stuff I don't think comes from the GSD.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack, that post really explains things well. The examples you gave were the types of things I though everyone meant, but wasn't sure. I'm a fan of concrete examples.



CptJack said:


> You can borrow Thud any time you want. You just have to take Molly, too, because they're attached at the hip.
> 
> Also he's a mutt, so I'm STILL kinda filtering out some stuff I don't think comes from the GSD.


You know I've been in love with Thud since the day you posted about finding him. I'd love to borrow him, but I _know_ I don't have the skills to handle him.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

so you're telling me i have to worry about my dog getting randomly pissed and attacking me even if im good to it and do everything right? great.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> so you're telling me i have to worry about my dog getting randomly pissed and attacking me even if im good to it and do everything right? great.


It is more detailed than that. Some dogs respond to confusion or delay in training by shutting down. Some will just wander away. Some will continue to sit there and vibrate with excitement of training even if you are slow or not exact. Some will nip and bark and "force" you to interact. The more "drivey" dogs tend towards the nip/bark/lunge category. 

It isn't about a dog being pissed nor about a dog attacking really, but more about how they interact and their expectations/demands.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Shell said:


> It is more detailed than that. Some dogs respond to confusion or delay in training by shutting down. Some will just wander away. Some will continue to sit there and vibrate with excitement of training even if you are slow or not exact. Some will nip and bark and "force" you to interact. The more "drivey" dogs tend towards the nip/bark/lunge category.
> 
> It isn't about a dog being pissed nor about a dog attacking really, but more about how they interact and their expectations/demands.


Thanks for clearing that up, sorry for how vague I sounded. I am ignorant on the subject but you guys are helping me alot and putting my mind at ease.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

im seeing the breeder tomorrow and getting acquainted with these dogs


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> It is more detailed than that. Some dogs respond to confusion or delay in training by shutting down. Some will just wander away. Some will continue to sit there and vibrate with excitement of training even if you are slow or not exact. Some will nip and bark and "force" you to interact. The more "drivey" dogs tend towards the nip/bark/lunge category.
> 
> It isn't about a dog being pissed nor about a dog attacking really, but more about how they interact and their expectations/demands.



Yeah, sorry. It's not a dog getting angry or aggressive, but some dogs will get physical in an attempt to force interaction/reaction. Also, a lot of herding breeds tend to use their mouths and teeth alot. It's not like they're attacking you but they use their teeth to make things happen.

That and redirection. I mean Thud is a huge dog and a mix. He weighs 120lbs. He redirects and grabs at me (he's better and better as he approaches 2, hasn't happened in a while) and I come away with bruises. Not being mauled to death.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

jack, did you have thud neutered? i personally feel its mean but i heard its good for temperament but im not sure how true that is


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> jack, did you have thud neutered? i personally feel its mean but i heard its good for temperament but im not sure how true that is


Nope. He won't be neutered until early next year when he's 2.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

is that something to consider for a GSD or is it not necessary


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> is that something to consider for a GSD or is it not necessary


It is a really personal decision that you should dig into for yourself. there are benefits and drawbacks (health, mostly) with both. 

Breed doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> is that something to consider for a GSD or is it not necessary


It will really depend on the dog, your contract with a breeder or rescue, and what you intend to do with the dog. Both of my dogs are fixed because I adopted them as adult rescues. I wouldn't by choice fix an immature dog but I would if that was what the contract I signed with a shelter required. Some people find that dog parks and doggie daycare require a dog to be fixed after 6 months of age and decide the benefit of that outweighs potential cons of development. 

Personally, based on the research I have done, I would fix a large breed dog not earlier than 2 years old --- as long as I was confident that the situations they might be in until then would not result in a litter. Fixing a female after puberty seems to have more health benefits to that individual dog than fixing a male (to avoid pyometra).


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>>>When you guys say less forgiving of handler mistakes what does that encompass

This can also mean that a dog 'holds a grudge' (not really, but easy to say this way), or will shut down if you push unreasonably or if you are harsh. So, if you are training obedience, and the dog gets tired, then you yell at the dog, then he may decide that he doesn't want to do anymore training for the rest of the day. You can also 'hurt a dog's feelings' by bullying him or training while you are impatient or angry. Some dogs won't work with you in those situations.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I met the breeder today and I am super-duper confident about the breed now, removed any preconceived notions I had. She mentioned OFA records and papers from AKC without me even asking. She said she would go over everything before I take him home. P.S. What a sweet bunch of dogs these GSD are. I think I can manage. She put me on her list. ,All the litter should be ready to go around later november. (27ish)


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Tyler_X said:


> When you guys say less forgiving of handler mistakes what does that encompass


Meaning if you give them a correction and they think they didn't do anything wrong or didn't deserve it, they could do a lot of things, shut down and refuse to work for you, or come up the leash at you. My other female, Izze was the come up the leash type.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Female gsd seem to be a little less patient on average but smarter


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Tyler_X said:


> Female gsd seem to be a little less patient on average but smarter


Females are usually more serious, it's not that they are smarter but tend to be more focused than males. They can be more protective of their people vs males who protect their territory. I prefer the male's personality over a female, they are goofballs  But every dog is different and you can't go wrong either way.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Just wanted to say thank you to all of you, If I have anymore questions I will post it here however, you guys are great! When I get the dog I'll probably post updates for a little while if anyone is interested. lol.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Tyler_X said:


> Just wanted to say thank you to all of you, If I have anymore questions I will post it here however, you guys are great! When I get the dog I'll probably post updates for a little while if anyone is interested. lol.


Puppy pictures are basically a requirement.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> Puppy pictures are basically a requirement.


haha! thought so


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I like females, I think they have a better work ethic than males and are more serious, also on average, they seem to mature faster than males. I have had, total, three males in my lifetime with dogs and I don't think I will have any more males lol.

Of course, that all depends on the person.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

rainflowers said:


> If your choice is a german shepherd then you'll have no problem with the dog being aloof with visitors unless he/she takes a dislike to the visitor but this can be controlled. This is a normal trait for this particular breed as they're very one owner oriented. I've had a number of shepherds throughout my life and they are wonderful companion dogs. Training is really important though as they're super intelligent and strong and can be quite a handful if not trained from a young age. Also be prepared for separation anxiety, however you'll find heaps of information on how to deal with this. We had our last shepherd for 13 years and she was just a wonderful, much loved family member.


I've been reading alot and also been reading two books, definitely gave me alot of extra info just how to care for your dog/ train your dog in general, pretty helpful, also the advice you guys gave me, I'm pretty confident about having a dog


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I like females, I think they have a better work ethic than males and are more serious, also on average, they seem to mature faster than males. I have had, total, three males in my lifetime with dogs and I don't think I will have any more males lol.
> 
> Of course, that all depends on the person.


Im wondering if i should get a male or a female


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Females are usually more serious, it's not that they are smarter but tend to be more focused than males. They can be more protective of their people vs males who protect their territory. I prefer the male's personality over a female, they are goofballs  But every dog is different and you can't go wrong either way.


Lol it seems like that is a trend among the working or herding dogs, the males tend to be more goofy and less serious. They seem to take life less seriously than females. That's why I prefer females, because they are more after my own heart


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think you should trust the breeder for the moment, and ask if you can get lots of advice with training.

I prefer males, b/c I understand the personality better. Not a judgement, but it is a generalization based on (incomplete) experience. That opinion doesn't help you make a decision. 

In my opinion, I believe that males are more consistent and more predictable in their behaviors ... Again, that can be good or bad.

If you neuter your dog, he/she will not have puppies. That is the only guarantee. Two neutered dogs can try to mate, can hump, can be aggressive, can be submissive... Again, talk to the breeder and talk to local Vets. Note that Vets are not breeders, or trainers ... So, listen, don't argue, but weigh their (non-medical) opinions with other opinions that you get. 

I like a GSD for his intelligence, but I like Labs for their personality ... So, I got a Lab/GSD mutt with the intelligence, independence, and personality. He is 14 yo.

Ask the breeder if you can start helping to train your puppy when it is selected. Pups can learn to Sit at 4 weeks!

Forget about protection for now. In today's environment, a dog that even barks at people can get into lots of trouble. Therefore, super socialize the pup with as many people, dogs, cats, animals, locations, experiences. Find some other puppies with the same energy level (regardless of breed) that your puppy can play with once a week. These exposures will help to create a gentle dog, a dog that believes that the world is a friendly place, and that every new person is a friend, rather than a threat. The dog may not be bubbly and enthusiastic with all people (like a Lab), but he will also not be fearful of every stranger. Alert is different than wary or fearful. 

BTW, CGC training will be easier with this type of socialization. The Ian Dunbar books will help with socialization, and now is a good time to start reading them the first time.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Another Quick Update, Found a different breeder weeks back since the other breeder only had a litter of females and I wanted a male. But yes I found a new one and I got on the list a while back. Super excited. Getting a boy GSD tomorrow, 8 weeks and 3 days (as of tomorrow). Just wanted to give a big thanks to all of you and expect puppy pictures tomorrow lol.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Tyler_X said:


> Im wondering if i should get a male or a female


that depends on you, I myself prefer females as far as dogss go, but I cant speak for you and your situation.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I got a male gsd last weekend at 8weeks 3 days. It took a day or two for him to get used to me. He's very smart but also a goofball. It only took him a day for him to learn to sit (after he got used to me). I taught him to lay down today. We practiced walking around the back and front yard(he follows me but not at my heel, i usually have to call him a few timefor him to pay attention and get back on track . I exercise him in the backyard but id like to teach him to walk correctly. Sometimes he will just sit there and stop moving. A few times in the backyard he has dashed away on the leash so I let go of it because I don't want him to hurt his neck. How old was your dog when you started walking him/her? Any other leash help would be nice.) But we're gonna keep practicing daily. Worst problem is he can get a little mouthy (he's cut me) I know he doesn't mean it but I'm not sure if the best thing to do when he gets that excited (any help would be great). He sleeps in his cage at night and hes smart enough not to go in the cage. He's still getting used to the other people that live in the house. Having a puppy is definitely more exhausting than I thought it'd be, (I feel like sleeping right now) he's awesome though.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Congratulations! Looking forward to lots of pictures!

See: ww.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads both of these free download books have lots of answers. 

Note: GSDs are VERY smart. But training is not all progress. He will assert his personality by how and when he chooses to be independent and do what he wants. You'll improve in training when you see how to recognize this in your dog. You might keep a weekly diary... it will be amazing to record how quickly he is learning in a year!

Everything is a distraction right now. One way to get him to walk with you is to walk a little more quickly, or even trot or run, so that if he gets distracted... he may lose you  If the backyard is fenced, you might teach him to walk with you, off leash, for the next two weeks or so.

Kikopup on Youtube, (as well as the two dogstardaily downloads), have some suggestions for loose leash or silky leash walking. But, it takes a while, and you really don't want to walk your dog with a leash off the property, until he has had all 3 sets of his vaccinations ... by about 4 mos. So, you have time to practice. 

Nipping is addressed by teaching Bite Inhibition. Rather than teach the pup Not to Bite, you teach him how to control how hard he bites.

See: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/320530-not-enjoying-new-puppy.html#post3462090

I wrote this info a while ago, based on work by Dr. Ian Dunbar. It doesn't always work with terriers, but it usually works VERY well with GSDs and Retrievers, because they learn quickly and react well when you withdraw attention. But, don't just scan that info. Print it out and read it carefully, and ask your wife to read it. When you learn how to mark bad behavior with a verbal cue, and how to enforce the fact that 'you don't like that behavior' by turning or walking away, then you learn a very powerful way of training using very gentle methods. 

My puppy also nipped, he was a fuzzy, needle-toothed vampire. When he nipped me in the ankle, I kicked him for a field goal, [This is not a recommended method of interaction.] and he'd run back snarling and bite the other ankle, having a great time  So, hitting him with a 2x4 wasn't an effective method of training ... just fun for him! But, when I used the yelp method and withdrew attention, he eventually learned that I wasn't happy. I was amazed what a little yelp could do.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

His biting has been getting worse, he lunged at me earlier and i had to put him in the kitchen by himself. I try walking away and saying no but it's not working.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> His biting has been getting worse, he lunged at me earlier and i had to put him in the kitchen by himself. I try walking away and saying no but it's not working.


I guess we weren't explicit enough when we told you this - and I don't mean this snarkily - but it's going to take weeks to months before ANY method will work and it will absolutely get worse before it gets better. This is what they do. It is normal. It will take longer if you are inconsistent, but no method is going to get you noticeable results quickly - not in days, not in weeks. MONTHS.

(And by the way that 2 months from now? That's probably when you can start to see/notice the improvement. Don't expect it to cut off fast then. It might once it starts sinking in, but probably not.)

All you can do is stick with getting up and walking away when it happens, every time it happens, to not try and pet or interact with him with your hands and manage those impulses, provide all the appropriate chews and toys that you can, hold on tight and to fasten your seat-belt.

I'm not saying let him do it. I'm saying you should expect to have to keep doing this without obvious results for weeks on end, and you should be prepared for that. It doesn't mean the method's not working - no method will and the more inconsistent you are the longer it will take - it just means that you have a german shepherd puppy and this is the process.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

and this is something you can also work with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c77--cCHPyU

But seriously. It takes time.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Tyler_X said:
> 
> 
> > His biting has been getting worse, he lunged at me earlier and i had to put him in the kitchen by himself. I try walking away and saying no but it's not working.
> ...


Thanks captain,just gonna have to keep doing what im doing. But what happens when he becomes large?, the lunging is aggressive behavior, the severity is diminished obviously because he's a puppy, but i just hope I'm not seeing early signs of aggression. There are times when he is so in the zone and latched onto me it's hard to walk away or redirect. For example we were outside and he latched on my leg and i tried shaking a toy in front of him squeaking it. Then i was trying to get inside i was literally dragging him i think it was making it worse.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tyler_X said:


> Thanks captain,just gonna have to keep doing what im doing. But what happens when he becomes large?, the lunging is aggressive behavior, the severity is diminished obviously because he's a puppy, but i just hope I'm not seeing early signs of aggression. There are times when he is so in the zone and latched onto me it's hard to walk away or redirect. For example we were outside and he latched on my leg and i was trying to get inside i was literally dragging him i think it was making it worse.


The lunging is being a puppy, not being aggressive. It shouldn't end up being a problem when he is large if you work on normal training and bite inhibition now while he is a pup. The whole thing takes time, but mental maturity on the dog's side of things and consistency on the human's side of things will make progress. 
Even Eva who was around 1-1.5 years old when she arrived here was mouthy. Zero problems after a month or two. Foster Luna was super nippy for the first month or so and she was around 1-1.5 years old too. But both those dogs arrived without the training you can give your dog from the start, I am just illustrating that even young adult dog mouthiness doesn't really have to connect with actual aggression.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Shell said:


> Tyler_X said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks captain,just gonna have to keep doing what im doing. But what happens when he becomes large?, the lunging is aggressive behavior, the severity is diminished obviously because he's a puppy, but i just hope I'm not seeing early signs of aggression. There are times when he is so in the zone and latched onto me it's hard to walk away or redirect. For example we were outside and he latched on my leg and i was trying to get inside i was literally dragging him i think it was making it worse.
> ...


Thank you shell,that's very reassuring.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> The lunging is being a puppy, not being aggressive. It shouldn't end up being a problem when he is large if you work on normal training and bite inhibition now while he is a pup. The whole thing takes time, but mental maturity on the dog's side of things and consistency on the human's side of things will make progress.
> Even Eva who was around 1-1.5 years old when she arrived here was mouthy. Zero problems after a month or two. Foster Luna was super nippy for the first month or so and she was around 1-1.5 years old too. But both those dogs arrived without the training you can give your dog from the start, I am just illustrating that even young adult dog mouthiness doesn't really have to connect with actual aggression.



And even with 'proper' training sometimes it persists without being aggression related. Thud got CRAZY mouthy as a teenager and when he was teething. It was like it would look better and then BAM, back. It was never anything but play but man that dog was nearly the death of me. At 2 he's good, but I was black and blue a LOT.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Shell said:
> 
> 
> > The lunging is being a puppy, not being aggressive. It shouldn't end up being a problem when he is large if you work on normal training and bite inhibition now while he is a pup. The whole thing takes time, but mental maturity on the dog's side of things and consistency on the human's side of things will make progress.
> ...


Lololol, Malcolm sounds a lot like him. It's crazy he can be so sweet then go to chew town on my foot. Lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> Lololol, Malcolm sounds a lot like him. It's crazy he can be so sweet then go to chew town on my foot. Lol


I love Thud enormously. He's a wonderful dog. Well worth the gray hair, blood, and tears of his extended puppyhood.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Could my puppy have aggression? Hes started biting my mom more and more recently, and he growls and barks at her. Even when she walks away she came back she did it like at least 5 times and he was still biting her leg. Im not sure how to correct him.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

No. He does not have aggression. He has 'GSD puppy' and 'puppy' and 'excited!' but mostly 'GSD puppy'. 

You don't correct him. You redirect him or you leave. Same stuff we keep saying. Honest.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> No. He does not have aggression. He has 'GSD puppy' and 'puppy' and 'excited!' but mostly 'GSD puppy'.
> 
> You don't correct him. You redirect him or you leave. Same stuff we keep saying. Honest.


I was really only asking on my moms behalf, she says its hard to walk away when hes biting hard.lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yep, it is. Hard to put up with and walk away from sometimes, too, and just plain hurts. Unfortunately all you can really do is keep preventing it and timing him out. If you're out and about and he's latching on, you use the leash to hold him away from you or you step on the leash so he can't get to you (gently, not roughly) or you pick him up, keep your hands out of the way and carry him home.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

What can I do about Malcolms fearfulness? I have successfully walked him at least 5 times. But the neighbors house right next to ours has an Adult GSD who barks at us through the window and it scares the crap out of him, he tries darting home on the leash. Also I have tried socializing him with my family and cousins (the children) and he avoided them like the plague (hes only met them twice but still) I had them hold out treats in their hand and it took him a long time to even sniff their hand (he didnt take it at first). I assume this is typical behavior since hes still a baby?

Edit: when he meets new people I make sure theyre calm and have the right energy, but when he met some of my family the other day it was time for his lunch and he wouldnt even go near it with them in the house.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Tyler_X said:


> i was told of an obedience class through my breeder, http://k-9connection.net/


Tyler, are you in RI?? That's the facility I teach at...if you look on the instructor's page, you'll see me and my two Rottweilers. 

Who is your breeder?? Casamoko Shepherds??


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

He sounds like Izze when she was a puppy ... I swear I don't know how I survived her puppy days. Josefina was better in that she didn't tear my skin and clothes to ribbons, but she was tough in other ways. All Puppies have their own challenges, and it's easy for someone like me to say "it's so easy all you have to do is this or that!" When I am looking in on the situation from a 3rd person view, but when you are living it (like I will be soon, as my own little terror comes home this weekend and I will probably be on her whining and venting about why I did this to myself lol) it's hard. 

My suggestion would be have a safe place you can put the puppy when you and your mom need a break, like a crate or a puppy safe room with a puzzle toy and a baby gate. For interaction time, I would carry a toy on walks, even something as simple as one of those dummy they use to train retrievers and if he starts to have a fit, stick that in front of him and let him vent his fit on that. It might be cumbersome to carry, but it's worth saving your skin lol.

For home I would get a pair of rubber boots, stick my pants inside and spray bitter apple on the boots, then ignore him when he is biting, if he gets ahold of the taste of the spray and stops praise him. If you don't want to use spray, you can just turn your back while he bites and since you have boots kn, he can't hurt you and it makes it harder for him to get a reaction out of you ignore him until he stops biting at your legs and then give him attention. 

Hope this helps.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Instead of having people try to bribe him to come over so they can meet him have them completely ignore him. Even if he comes up behind them and starts sniffing tell them to just continue to face away and don't try to touch him. They can talk to him and put their hand out away from him but he needs to make the first approach. In social situations he needs to be crated or penned or leashed so people won't be able to get in his face but he can observe them.

Some dogs/pups are best buddies with anybody in less than a second and some need time to be best buddies with everybody. Some never do like anybody they haven't known for years. He may never be a social butterfly and you need to be able to respect that. More likely everything is just too much for him yet and once he successfully meets a number of strangers he will get it. Strange person has a cookie and cookies are good therefore strangers are good!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> Tyler, are you in RI?? That's the facility I teach at...if you look on the instructor's page, you'll see me and my two Rottweilers.
> 
> Who is your breeder?? Casamoko Shepherds??


Based on the age of the pup and the latest litter info on their site it isn't from them. Unless they have another litter they haven't updated about.

Sidenote; I have too much time on my hands today.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H1JGfzaW9A&feature=youtu.be This video came out tonight and made me think of you. There's a section on puppy biting - check it out.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> Based on the age of the pup and the latest litter info on their site it isn't from them. Unless they have another litter they haven't updated about.
> 
> Sidenote; I have too much time on my hands today.


You're probably right. I know the woman who is Casamoko Shepherds pretty well...she's a veterinarian too. She brings all of her puppies and puppy owners to the K9 Connection. In fact, there's a litter now in the puppy classes my friend Kathy teaches. I sort of wished he had gotten a puppy from her....Katie is wonderful about being a resource to her puppy owners with questions about behavior and stuff like that. She's very available and and involved with her puppies and their owners. She does all of the OFA testing and she works her dogs in agility, rally, and obedience, and does conformation with them too.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Update: Ive learned to just take things day by day because hes still a pup, hes so smart and catches onto things quickly, his biting has gotten better too, I stand still and shake something in his face eventually he gets bored and goes for the toy. Hes a little better on walks, he does get distracted by the smells and noises sometimes, but I redirect him. He seems more alert now than fearful when he hears noises. Im gonna take him to puppy class soon just for socialization purposes, since I have trained him.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I got my dog from Topline German Shepherds


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I went to their website, they seem ok, their website is rather bland, but they seem to have nice dogs.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I went to their website, they seem ok, their website is rather bland, but they seem to have nice dogs.


I did too....they can't spell "temperament" correctly for one. They advertize on Ebay Classifieds. They have absolutely nothing informational about the dogs other than a couple of jpgs. How about basic pedigrees? Championships? Working titles? How about OFA numbers? So...I checked OFA for Topline GSD and saw they had bred a bitch with mildly dysplastic hips. 

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1673710#animal 

Here's the dog that was bred from the dysplastic bitch. The sire has no hip ratings with OFA. I'll edit this and just have the link to the photo of the dog as featured on the breeder's FB page. 

https://www.facebook.com/ToplineShe...9116954797030/729395957102462/?type=1&theater

Seriously??? :/

And editing in to add something for perspective. Casamoko GSD tests their Shepherds for elbows, hips, cardiac, eyes/CERF, thyroid, degenerative myleopathy, and GSDCA Temperament Test and record all of the findings with OFA. They have their CHIC numbers. Look up Casamoko on OFA and you'll see what I'm talking about.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I did too....they can't spell "temperament" correctly for one. They advertize on Ebay Classifieds. They have absolutely nothing informational about the dogs other than a couple of jpgs. How about basic pedigrees? Championships? Working titles? How about OFA numbers? So...I checked OFA for Topline GSD and saw they had bred a bitch with mildly dysplastic hips.
> 
> http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1673710#animal
> 
> ...


Geeze, you really went all out to research! It's not like I wanted a puppy from them so I didn't really try very hard lol. I admit I can't spell temperament either ... the only reason I can is because auto correct.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

LOL....I dug that all info in under 10 minutes. It wasn't a lot of research at all...you just have to know what to look for. You had made the comment they seemed okay by looking at their website. Spelling errors on a website that promotes a kennel or business for that matter shows how little details matter to the people behind it. 

If you are a breeder who is a member of the American Rottweiler Club and you breed a bitch or dog with anything less than a Fair OFA rating on hips...you are breaking their mandatory practices. If you break the ARC mandatory practices, you risk disciplinary action such as suspension or expulsion from the club. I'm going to guess that the GSD national club probably has similar mandatory practices...I doubt this breeder is a member of the national GSD club because that's something that breeders of merit have prominently featured on their kennel websites. I'm fairly sure the GSD community wouldn't look too highly on a breeder that bred a female that has dysplastic hips as rated by OFA. 

I'm just saying...I wouldn't give the "seems okay" to a breeder who bred a dysplastic bitch. That's a massive red flag to me.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> LOL....I dug that all info in under 10 minutes. It wasn't a lot of research at all...you just have to know what to look for. You had made the comment they seemed okay by looking at their website. Spelling errors on a website that promotes a kennel or business for that matter shows how little details matter to the people behind it.
> 
> If you are a breeder who is a member of the American Rottweiler Club and you breed a bitch or dog with anything less than a Fair OFA rating on hips...you are breaking their mandatory practices. If you break the ARC mandatory practices, you risk disciplinary action such as suspension or expulsion from the club. I'm going to guess that the GSD national club probably has similar mandatory practices...I doubt this breeder is a member of the national GSD club because that's something that breeders of merit have prominently featured on their kennel websites. I'm fairly sure the GSD community wouldn't look too highly on a breeder that bred a female that has dysplastic hips as rated by OFA.
> 
> I'm just saying...I wouldn't give the "seems okay" to a breeder who bred a dysplastic bitch. That's a massive red flag to me.


LOL, I don't really pay attention to spelling errors, I am the most horrible speller ever, the only reason my posts look halfway decent is because of auto correct on the phone, or spell suggestion on the computer, if it wasn't for that I would be screwed LOL

I for one would hope he doesnt try to do agility with a dog who has a displastic parent ... thats too bad  esp when your friend, who is a great breeder is in his area, he could have gotten so much more for his money, now he is stuck with a dog that might have to be PTS in a few years due to HD, and thats sad


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Edit:yeah hes got nice looking dogs and the breeder is a nice down to earth guy but hes definitely not as legit as I thought, I should have known when I didnt get any documentation. my puppy is honestly showing signs of fear. I took him to a class and the trainer did notice right away how shy he was. His biting has gotten worse, he growled and stared at me earlier, also when I was sitting down in my chair he jumped at me and started barking and bit my foot, hes also bit my mom and her boyfriend and he will do it so hard and he was even doing tug of war with my moms boyfriends hand he wouldnt let go. The puppy was clearly not socialized as well as I thought. I honestly have thought about taking it back and searching elsewhere. I exercise him daily and fulfill all his needs, or at least I'd like to think I do. So I'm not sure where this behavior is coming from. Having a dog is really important to me so this situation is upsetting.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

i dont want anyone to think im giving up on him or something, I just dont know what to do. When I think of a german shepherd and the traits it has, he is lacking some.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't know what to tell you except to get him in classes with an experienced trainer and keep him there - seek behaviorst help if they think he needs it.

The real problem is your descriptions here are just... GSD puppy to me in a lot of ways. Obviously there's more than that if other people are seeing issues but the biting, growling, aggressive style play? Even down to bleeding or not wanting to let go of a hand? That can be very normal and we told you that was going to happen. 

They're BITEY, mouthy, seriously intense puppies who are really difficult. Like I said, obviously there's more going on if other people with experience are commenting, but I think you need to both assess if you can deal with this puppy and his issues and the breed as a whole.

They make people bleed. They have scars. Not for a few days or a couple of weeks but MONTHS, sometimes a year or close to it - and that's the normal ones.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

While I do agree with you, there just has to be a certain point where enough is enough its not acceptable. Yes I can deal with the breed I think I've proven that to myself already. Its just do I take my chances and hope this is just a phase? Or is this a long term issue? I see by his body language though, stiff and rigid and his eyes dilate. He gives me the whale eye sometimes too.He's tried snapping at my face and Im not deliberately putting my face up close to him, he tries to jump. It feels like time spent with him where we can just chill and I can pet him without him biting my hand and/or jumping at my face has deteriorated.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I don't know what to tell you except to get him in classes with an experienced trainer and keep him there - seek behaviorst help if they think he needs it.
> 
> The real problem is your descriptions here are just... GSD puppy to me in a lot of ways. Obviously there's more than that if other people are seeing issues but the biting, growling, aggressive style play? Even down to bleeding or not wanting to let go of a hand? That can be very normal and we told you that was going to happen.
> 
> ...


I'm really hoping that the classes will help, it's not fair for him to be afraid, I'm hoping I can get him socialized.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Tyler, you're around Rhode Island, aren't you? Contact Mrs. Boats (who posted to this thread previously), she is a very talented dog trainer with a lot of experience handling and raising large, intense breeds with attitude. This is her page on DogForums: http://www.dogforums.com/members/mrsboats.html And this is her training page: https://www.facebook.com/trainemtasks If you can meet her in person and take her classes, she can probably give you a better idea of how to manage and understand your puppy. 

To be honest, calling him "aggressive" is going overboard. There are very, very, very few cases of truly aggressive 3 month old puppies and your boy doesn't sound like one of them. He sounds like a fairly typical GSD puppy, and while the fearfulness and shyness doesn't match up to my experience or expectations, it is still true that GSD puppies often go through many phases of fear. Did you get a chance to meet your puppy's dam and sire when you visited the breeder? How did you feel about their temperaments? 

To give you an idea of what it's like to live with a GSD puppy, here's what I had to put up with
- constant biting, to the point where no one could pet him without getting mouthed/bitten until he was ~8 months old
- he will LATCH ON, he would bite my sleeves and I could lift my arms up and swing him around and shake him and he wouldn't let go (btw, I do not recommend that)
- we would go for walks and he would turn around randomly and attack my ankles and hands
- whenever he was excited, happy, or wanted something he would redirect by biting me
- he always went for the skin and never for clothes
- he never quit, ever. I could yell, "become a tree", use bitter apple spray, redirect with toys and treats, but nothing deterred him from biting my hands and arms and ankles. He was extremely tenacious, stubborn, independent, and highly determined. 

And did I mention that he bit a lot? I still have scars covering my arms and legs from when he bit me as a puppy - he drew blood frequently and often latched on. Plus, puppy teeth are incredibly sharp. And this went on until he was at least 7 or 8 months old. Maybe even 9 months? After that there was a little grace period...and then oh boy, he hit adolescence. While his bite inhibition was wonderful, everything else about him was nasty. We had dog reactivity, high possessive aggression, defensive aggression, a bit of human reactivity, he did not want to be pet, a nightmare to teach recall to (couldn't let go of the leash without him bolting away), etc. 

Obviously I did a lot wrong, too, and there are infinitely better ways to raise a puppy like that than what I did. I know that now, though it's a whole lot easier said than done anyway. Your boy may not be nearly as bad as my GSD was as a puppy, but I'll say that what my dog put me through was not unusual at all. It's definitely worth it in the end _for me personally_, but that's only my opinion. Somewhere around 3 years of age my dog grew up, and I started to, too. Bite inhibition is excellent, reactivity has gone down greatly, still possessive and defensive but I admittedly like that. 

Remember that socialization isn't just taking him out to meet people - it's keeping experiences positive, not overwhelming him, and encouraging confidence and the desire to explore. Hoping for the best, and definitely recommend that you contact Mrs. Boats


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I didnt get a chance to meet them, I only know what the father looks like. Also Malcolm was bred from a different bitch than the slightly dysplastic one.







His dad is a good looking dog, breeder says he is german sired.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I definitely agree with getting in contact with Mrs Boats. She is a fantastic resource and you are lucky to be able to meet her in person.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I've just... got to agree.

The fear needs some work and that means taking him out and getting him positive experiences and working with a professional trainer, but I am not joking when I say my GSD mix left me with SCARS from latching onto my skin like you're describing. For months. Close to a year. Jumping up at my face and trying to hang off my nose or chin? YEP. 

I can't see your puppy. I can say that fear is something I absolutely would buy, and nervousness but true aggression at his age would be bizarre and very, very, unlikely even from the worst bred and even feral puppy. But stiff, stalking, leaping after you, snapping and biting and holding on? You NEED to accept that this is NORMAL behavior and no matter how much you train, how much you socialize (and you need to do both in the right way, and to be gentle and consistent - ANY hard negative correction is going to add to those fear issues you mention and make him more likely to be defensive and bite defensively and come to think of that if you or anyone else are using corrections, pinning, scruffing, rolling, or yelling at him make them STOP because you're going to make his fear a billion times worse) are going to be around for a long, long time.

You keep saying 'at some point enough is enough' and describing these biting incidents like they blow your mind and they're weird and unusual and your puppy's got something wrong. If he does have a problem, it's in the fear. The biting, snapping, lunging, hanging onto your skin (and yeah, I've had the 'lift the puppy off the ground by its teeth in my arm experience too), jumping up to bite- 

That's just, I'm sorry, pure German Shepherd Puppy. That you keep describing these incidents as evidence of something being wrong with your pup is why I even mentioned you not necessarily being equipped for the breed. It shouldn't be shocking to you. That's NORMAL. You're gonna bleed. A lot. When we said the puppy would bite a lot we didn't mean it would lazily gnaw at what was convenient. We really did mean jumping up at your face and grabbing into your hand and trying to play tug of war with it. Me saying I have scars from being grabbed like that for a year or more wasn't hyperbole. It is pure, literal, truth.

Definitely get to MrsBoats. We're obviously online and can't see. She's close enough that she can.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I've just... got to agree.
> 
> The fear needs some work and that means taking him out and getting him positive experiences and working with a professional trainer, but I am not joking when I say my GSD mix left me with SCARS from latching onto my skin like you're describing. For months. Close to a year. Jumping up at my face and trying to hang off my nose or chin? YEP.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't go as far to say it's blowing my mind. I just don't know how he doesn't get tired of chewing on me lol. I've never owned a german shepherd before so if this is really just normal behavior Im gonna have to suck it up. I honestly think the whole fear issue is more of a problem. Its definitely not normal. I mean hes even afraid of the little hot dog down the street. What should I do when he hears or sees another dog barking and he tries to run away on the leash? Or sometimes he will start crying and then walk in front of me and try to jump on me.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I've just... got to agree.
> 
> The fear needs some work and that means taking him out and getting him positive experiences and working with a professional trainer, but I am not joking when I say my GSD mix left me with SCARS from latching onto my skin like you're describing. For months. Close to a year. Jumping up at my face and trying to hang off my nose or chin? YEP.
> 
> ...


The class I signed him up for is based on positive reinforcement, the trainer is really nice, I've got my first class on sunday. I've taught him lots of things even as early as 9 weeks, hes very smart and loyal so I think if hes able to do these things he can get over this, and yeah hes most likely not aggressive, I probably am overreacting a little, its just, his body language is a dead giveaway it shows that somethings up or hes agitated, also if I could try to put this in perspective, he shows same body language that could be perceived from an adult dog as aggressive, is it any less serious because hes smaller?


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> The class I signed him up for is based on positive reinforcement, the trainer is really nice, I've got my first class on sunday. I've taught him lots of things even as early as 9 weeks, hes very smart and loyal so I think if hes able to do these things he can get over this, and yeah hes most likely not aggressive, I probably am overreacting a little, its just, his body language is a dead giveaway it shows that somethings up or hes agitated, also if I could try to put this in perspective, he shows same body language that could be perceived from an adult dog as aggressive,* is it any less serious because hes smaller?*


No, I would take any behavior seriously, no matter what size. BUT BUT BUT odds are it is not aggression, as others have already said. More likely overexcitement/rough play. Our suspected LabXGSD mix is a year and still likes to nip at our faces. Definitely not aggressive, just affectionate in an inappropriate way. I'd see what the trainer says. If possible could you take a video and share it?


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Tyler_X said:


> he shows same body language that could be perceived from an adult dog as aggressive, is it any less serious because hes smaller?


From the sounds of it, it's not that he's showing the same traits of an aggressive adult dog in a smaller package...he's just a puppy being a puppy. Okay, yes, it'd be more serious if he were bigger because he could do more damage, but that's because you can't have an 80+ lb GSD happily lunging for your face or trying to latch on to your fingers. That's regardless of the reasons why! I know adult dogs that do redirect on people out of excitement and want to take bites or nip when they are overstimulated - but it is without a doubt _not_ aggression. 

It's very difficult to understand what you mean by his body language being a "dead giveaway" without being there to see him in person or knowing the context. Have you been able to catch it on video, at the very least? Not that we would be able to tell much of anything without knowing this puppy, but at least we can see what you're referring to in terms of his body language. 

Also, it's a bit unfortunate that you did not get to meet his parents in person. I think with a breeder that has so little information available, and a lack of OFA ratings (I looked up the sire on the database and found nothing), it's pretty important to be able to see the dogs for yourself, ask about them, see for yourself that they are confident, well adjusted, well built dogs. A few pictures on Facebook doesn't tell you much, nor does "German sired". Have you spoken to the breeder about your concerns? While you're at it, I'd be adamant on getting to see hip x-rays at the very least.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Equinox said:


> From the sounds of it, it's not that he's showing the same traits of an aggressive adult dog in a smaller package...he's just a puppy being a puppy. Okay, yes, it'd be more serious if he were bigger because he could do more damage, but that's because you can't have an 80+ lb GSD happily lunging for your face or trying to latch on to your fingers. That's regardless of the reasons why! I know adult dogs that do redirect on people out of excitement and want to take bites or nip when they are overstimulated - but it is without a doubt _not_ aggression.
> 
> It's very difficult to understand what you mean by his body language being a "dead giveaway" without being there to see him in person or knowing the context. Have you been able to catch it on video, at the very least? Not that we would be able to tell much of anything without knowing this puppy, but at least we can see what you're referring to in terms of his body language.
> 
> Also, it's a bit unfortunate that you did not get to meet his parents in person. I think with a breeder that has so little information available, and a lack of OFA ratings (I looked up the sire on the database and found nothing), it's pretty important to be able to see the dogs for yourself, ask about them, see for yourself that they are confident, well adjusted, well built dogs. A few pictures on Facebook doesn't tell you much, nor does "German sired". Have you spoken to the breeder about your concerns? While you're at it, I'd be adamant on getting to see hip x-rays at the very least.


I feel like the breeder kinda tricked me, cause he said he was gonna give me documents and all this and that but nothing ever came, I really don't know crap about the dog or his parents, I am honestly returning the puppy and searching elsewhere, I dont want to own a dog I know nothing about health wise, and I have no idea of knowing if 1 or 2 years down the line he is going to have health issues. Unless the breeder gives me any type of information/ documents I see no reason to keep it, something, anything to make me confident I got my moneys worth. The first breeder I found was great, but it was unfortunate because the litter was females. I think because I have wanted a german shepherd for so long I wasnt as forthcoming as I should have been. I don't mind waiting if it means I find the right dog. But temperament wise the puppy lacks basic german shepherd traits, at this breeder I got the dog from, all the dogs there were going crazy in its kennels, when I was at the breeders I saw a dog that was cool but he said "don't try to stick your fingers in the cage and pet her she will bite your fingers off".


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

MrsBoats said:


> You're probably right. I know the woman who is Casamoko Shepherds pretty well...she's a veterinarian too. She brings all of her puppies and puppy owners to the K9 Connection. In fact, there's a litter now in the puppy classes my friend Kathy teaches. I sort of wished he had gotten a puppy from her....Katie is wonderful about being a resource to her puppy owners with questions about behavior and stuff like that. She's very available and and involved with her puppies and their owners. She does all of the OFA testing and she works her dogs in agility, rally, and obedience, and does conformation with them too.


Im wishing I got my dog from them, but even if I wanted to now it wouldnt be until winter of 2015 when I get it.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Tyler_X said:


> I feel like the breeder kinda tricked me, cause he said he was gonna give me documents and all this and that but nothing ever came, I really don't know crap about the dog or his parents, I am honestly returning the puppy and searching elsewhere, I dont want to own a dog I know nothing about health wise, and I have no idea of knowing if 1 or 2 years down the line he is going to have health issues. Unless the breeder gives me any type of information/ documents I see no reason to keep it, something, anything to make me confident I got my moneys worth. The first breeder I found was great, but it was unfortunate because the litter was females. I think because I have wanted a german shepherd for so long I wasnt as forthcoming as I should have been. I don't mind waiting if it means I find the right dog. But temperament wise the puppy lacks basic german shepherd traits, at this breeder I got the dog from, all the dogs there were going crazy in its kennels, when I was at the breeders I saw a dog that was cool but he said "don't try to stick your fingers in the cage and pet her she will bite your fingers off".


Wow, yikes. SO many red flags from what you've said, what Mrs. Boats pointed out, and what I've found online. I'm not one for making snap judgments based on websites or pictures...but this does not sound like a good guy to work with. You paid for your puppy, you should have received those papers for sure. And telling you one of his dogs will "bite your fingers off"? In this context NO WAY. That's not something I want to hear from the breeder, or see in one of his dogs. And like Mrs. Boats pointed out, there is a lot of information missing regarding the health of his dogs. When I put in the registration name of your dog's sire (Yogi) into the OFA database, I got nothing. There is a chance that he did x-ray them and didn't send them in, or used PennHip, which is why I'd insist on seeing x-rays personally, but he just doesn't sound like a trustworthy guy from what you've said. 

If you do return the puppy, please be more diligent in looking for and getting to know your next breeder. Having a puppy available immediately is the least concern you should have - talk to them first about their dogs, what you're looking for, health, temperament, raising a puppy, etc. It's clear that you were a bit in over your head with this pup, and getting a different puppy isn't going to change that. Once again, aside from the fear, a lot of the issues you described are very normal GSD puppy traits. You'll still have a rough time, but having a good breeder or trainer to give you pointers can be invaluable. 

Keep us updated!


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Sorry for missing a big chunk of the latest discussion here...was off at a big dog show cluster out of state running agility. 

Just so you guys know...I sent Tyler a PM.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Tyler_X said:


> Im wishing I got my dog from them, but even if I wanted to now it wouldnt be until winter of 2015 when I get it.


Waiting isn't the worst thing in the world.



MrsBoats said:


> Sorry for missing a big chunk of the latest discussion here...was off at a big dog show cluster out of state running agility.
> 
> Just so you guys know...I sent Tyler a PM.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

cookieface said:


> Waiting isn't the worst thing in the world.


Nope...started my search for who ended up becoming Lars in 2005. Brought Lars home in January of 2008. That was a two year wait for my once in a lifetime dog and I would wait those two years again in a heartbeat if I had to do it all over again.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Equinox said:


> Wow, yikes. SO many red flags from what you've said, what Mrs. Boats pointed out, and what I've found online. I'm not one for making snap judgments based on websites or pictures...but this does not sound like a good guy to work with. You paid for your puppy, you should have received those papers for sure. And telling you one of his dogs will "bite your fingers off"? In this context NO WAY. That's not something I want to hear from the breeder, or see in one of his dogs. And like Mrs. Boats pointed out, there is a lot of information missing regarding the health of his dogs. When I put in the registration name of your dog's sire (Yogi) into the OFA database, I got nothing. There is a chance that he did x-ray them and didn't send them in, or used PennHip, which is why I'd insist on seeing x-rays personally, but he just doesn't sound like a trustworthy guy from what you've said.


This is something for everyone to keep in mind when it comes to OFA. Dog owners do have the option of not having failing health clearances published online in the database. So...if a dog doesn't pass, those results aren't made public which I think is complete crap, personally. Makes one wonder if there is info missing...did they not bother to screen? Or....did they screen and did the dog not pass and they marked the box on the form to not make failing results public? Hmmmmm.....


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> Sorry for missing a big chunk of the latest discussion here...was off at a big dog show cluster out of state running agility.
> 
> Just so you guys know...I sent Tyler a PM.


Good to hear 



MrsBoats said:


> This is something for everyone to keep in mind when it comes to OFA. Dog owners do have the option of not having failing health clearances published online in the database. So...if a dog doesn't pass, those results aren't made public which I think is complete crap, personally. Makes one wonder if there is info missing...did they not bother to screen? Or....did they screen and did the dog not pass and they marked the box on the form to not make failing results public? Hmmmmm.....


And both of those possibilities would have me walking away!


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Equinox said:


> Good to hear
> 
> 
> 
> And both of those possibilities would have me walking away!


I almost did.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I feel like a jackass.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Tyler_X said:


> I feel like a jackass.


Don't!! You did what you thought was best. Now, you have a little more information and will make better choices in the future. Plus, it sounds as though the breeder wasn't especially honest, so, yeah, not your fault at all.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

................


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Well, it was a good learning experience. I'm sure lots of other folks have gotten help from reading this as well.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Equinox said:


> Wow, yikes. SO many red flags from what you've said, what Mrs. Boats pointed out, and what I've found online. I'm not one for making snap judgments based on websites or pictures...but this does not sound like a good guy to work with. You paid for your puppy, you should have received those papers for sure. And telling you one of his dogs will "bite your fingers off"? In this context NO WAY. That's not something I want to hear from the breeder, or see in one of his dogs. And like Mrs. Boats pointed out, there is a lot of information missing regarding the health of his dogs. When I put in the registration name of your dog's sire (Yogi) into the OFA database, I got nothing. There is a chance that he did x-ray them and didn't send them in, or used PennHip, which is why I'd insist on seeing x-rays personally, but he just doesn't sound like a trustworthy guy from what you've said.
> 
> If you do return the puppy, please be more diligent in looking for and getting to know your next breeder. Having a puppy available immediately is the least concern you should have - talk to them first about their dogs, what you're looking for, health, temperament, raising a puppy, etc. It's clear that you were a bit in over your head with this pup, and getting a different puppy isn't going to change that. Once again, aside from the fear, a lot of the issues you described are very normal GSD puppy traits. You'll still have a rough time, but having a good breeder or trainer to give you pointers can be invaluable.
> 
> Keep us updated!


I don't think its fair to say I'm in over my head, I can totally handle a german shepherd, its just it is my first time it seems you can't really know everything without experiencing it first hand I guess.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The traits you describe sound like typical puppy. With training and maturity the pup will mellow out after you super socialize as much as possible all the time, and do Bite Inhibition. 

Although a few people weren't successful, lots of folks have been successful with this method to reduce biting:

See: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/first-time-...ml#post3462090 (Not enjoying new puppy due to biting)

I tried to be explicit in the original posts:
Whatever method you use, you have to expect it to take the pup at least 3 days to begin to get it, b/c they have to sleep on it to learn some lessons.
When the pup bites you, you want to yelp, or scream, curse, or say ouch! just as loudly as he yelps when you step on him [don't step on him on purpose  ].
When you yelp, you want to get a 'startle' response or a look of curiosity from him. You then build on that reaction, demonstrating that your 'yelp' is not a one time accident, but is a permanent "I don't like that!" from you that quickly escalates into the puppy being left all alone. You can't take shortcuts, and you have to be very consistent... although you CAN cut out some of the steps, going directly from nip to Yelp and withdrawing attention (skipping the turn your back steps).

But you need to make a sound that gets his attention AND then leave. Don't leave silently. And, don't whisper 'no' ... Think what you'd say if you were alone and you hit your thumb with a hammer  That intense and that loud ... b/c it hurts when he bites! and then leave for 30 seconds.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

If.you yell or say ouch he bites harder. The only thing he seems to get is timeout


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

You have to realize you will have to go through the same thing if you get another German Shepherd puppy. It may not (should not) show the timidness but the biting will probably be the same. On the other hand, I got Kris, my Doberman at 11 weeks and all you read about them is what Dobersharks they are. She has never ever been mouthy at all. She just does not ever put her mouth on me. Her big thing was using her feet like a boxer and it took ages before she would not come up and climb all over me.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tyler_X said:


> If.you yell or say ouch he bites harder. The only thing he seems to get is timeout


Biting harder at yelling or loud noises is ALSO normal for many, many dogs with any kind of prey drive. 

And, well, working dogs and herding dogs have tons of it. As do hunting dogs and terriers.

We're NOT trying to criticize you, we're really not. It's just you keep describing TOTALLY NORMAL german shepherd puppy behavior and acting frantic, scared, overwhelmed, and like the puppy is dangerously aggressive. 

But nothing you've said bears out any conclusion but "this is normal GSD puppy behavior" and that, yeah, you're going to have the same biting and growling and lunging at your face stuff. Maybe not timidity but in the absence of that? You may well get MORE biting and mouthing and lunging and growling and attacking. Not playful easy biting either. blood, scars and hanging off your skin/arm/hands.

Just like this one.

You need to make the best decision for you, but honestly? I'm going to straight up say if the biting and 'aggression' is what's making you rethink keeping this puppy? Get a different breed.

Because again: I've seen or heard or read no evidence of abnormal behavior relating to this puppy's level of biting and aggression. It's dead on normal GSD < 2. It really sounds like all the stuff we warned you about. 

(I absolutely do wish you luck with what you decide, and hope you make that decision with the help of a certified behaviorist.)


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Tyler_X said:
> 
> 
> > If.you yell or say ouch he bites harder. The only thing he seems to get is timeout
> ...


Honestly i don't think his biting is abnormal (but I really dont know), that's not really the issue here. I was speaking more on my family's behalf for that problem, he does get out of hand but i don't think it's intentional. He's only done one thing Ididn't think was cool, (I had to stop giving him bully sticks cause he was RGing them and would bite me when i tried to take it away). I was speaking more about the fact i knew nothing about its history or parents and that i have to work with a fearful dog and that fear COULD turn into something else, He's super head shy. Also yes any health problems whether it be hip or anything else. I've got him in classes and I take him out every day to socialize, so only time will tell.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Maybe in over your head isn't quite the term I'm looking for. It's just...I wish you took more time to take the advice that was given to you here, and made a more conscientious effort to find the right breeder and puppy. The first breeder you met you were happy with, and were able to meet the dogs. But you didn't do the same for Malcolm's breeder and to me it seemed like the biggest/only reason you went with him was because he had puppies available. You said you "almost" walked away - that's the thing. If you felt like there was enough wrong to consider doing so, you probably should have. 

I don't mean to be harsh, because I 100% understand being impatient for your dream dog and wanting to jump right in, but I don't think you realize(d) how much work it's supposed to be. When I got my GSD puppy it was 70% work and 2% play. The other 28% was when he was asleep. You say that your concerns about his "aggression" are only on your family's behalf, but the way you talk about his body language and behavior and asked about aggression is why we're reminding you that this is what GSD puppies are like. 

The good news is that you're learning and have a better attitude about this than most people would. Also, there is a chance that the breeder has hip x-rays and just didn't want to pay for them to be evaluated by the OFA (which IMO is not a good practice either). If you can't return the puppy, try to see if you can see those x-rays and get Malcolm's paperwork at the very least. When you purchased Malcolm, did you sign a contract stating that he would be clear of HD and that you will receive AKC paperwork? Or was it all just a verbal agreement?


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Equinox said:


> Maybe in over your head isn't quite the term I'm looking for. It's just...I wish you took more time to take the advice that was given to you here, and made a more conscientious effort to find the right breeder and puppy. The first breeder you met you were happy with, and were able to meet the dogs. But you didn't do the same for Malcolm's breeder and to me it seemed like the biggest/only reason you went with him was because he had puppies available. You said you "almost" walked away - that's the thing. If you felt like there was enough wrong to consider doing so, you probably should have.
> 
> I don't mean to be harsh, because I 100% understand being impatient for your dream dog and wanting to jump right in, but I don't think you realize(d) how much work it's supposed to be. When I got my GSD puppy it was 70% work and 2% play. The other 28% was when he was asleep. You say that your concerns about his "aggression" are only on your family's behalf, but the way you talk about his body language and behavior and asked about aggression is why we're reminding you that this is what GSD puppies are like.
> 
> The good news is that you're learning and have a better attitude about this than most people would. Also, there is a chance that the breeder has hip x-rays and just didn't want to pay for them to be evaluated by the OFA (which IMO is not a good practice either). If you can't return the puppy, try to see if you can see those x-rays and get Malcolm's paperwork at the very least. When you purchased Malcolm, did you sign a contract stating that he would be clear of HD and that you will receive AKC paperwork? Or was it all just a verbal agreement?


No contract, just verbal agreement.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

He's been really coming out of his shell recently. Hes alot more "vocal". Hes got such a deep bark for a puppy. He barked at a big ol st bernard that was probably 3 times his size. I was like this pup is crazy lol. Probably started a few weeks ago. I have been socializing him more and he doesn't back away from people anymore when they get near him.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Great pix! From the way he looks at the camera, he looks very smart. No matter what you do, puppies bite for the first few months ... so you keep training and socializing ... by 4 mos or 6 mos, he should be better. When he's fully vaccinated, you might set up playdates (in addition to training classes) to help drain off some of his mental and physical energy.

Plan to socialize and train for his entire life ... I'm still doing that with my 14 yo dog!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

He is absolutely beautiful, Tyler.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

I feel like hes not learning bite inhibition, the intensity of his biting is increasing. The other day when I was at puppy class he bit my hand and it started leaking blood my whole hand was covered in blood, even the trainer thought he was rough. Hes a little stinker sometimes lool. The overall frequency of his biting is less (which is nice), but not the intensity.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

CptJack said:


> He is absolutely beautiful, Tyler.


Thanks bro


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

........................................


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

,....................


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> Great pix! From the way he looks at the camera, he looks very smart. No matter what you do, puppies bite for the first few months ... so you keep training and socializing ... by 4 mos or 6 mos, he should be better. When he's fully vaccinated, you might set up playdates (in addition to training classes) to help drain off some of his mental and physical energy.
> 
> Plan to socialize and train for his entire life ... I'm still doing that with my 14 yo dog!


Hes one of a kind IMO. Hes the best, super smart. He learns new things and it only takes one training session, no joking. He looks at me with a "whats next? thats all you got?" face. Hes also a good problem solver.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Training is a problem with GSDs .... There's never enough time to satisfy them !  Take advantage and teach voice cue, as well as gestures. When his vision matures, you can also teach him to understand when you point, when you blink, when you glance. ... I don't know if GSDs will look at birds (and planes) flying overhead, but you can point them out to him.

Teach him right and left, as well as names for all objects, perhaps "Fetch 'object' " ... and possibly Take 'object' to Person-X ..

I believe that the more that you shove into their brain when they are young, the easier and faster that they'll learn when older. 

I don't really 'train' my 14 yo dog anymore, just kind of indicate what I want him to do ... but he can't do it all. It's a shame that he's so smart ... and so stiff


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> Training is a problem with GSDs .... There's never enough time to satisfy them !  Take advantage and teach voice cue, as well as gestures. When his vision matures, you can also teach him to understand when you point, when you blink, when you glance. ... I don't know if GSDs will look at birds (and planes) flying overhead, but you can point them out to him.
> 
> Teach him right and left, as well as names for all objects, perhaps "Fetch 'object' " ... and possibly Take 'object' to Person-X ..
> 
> ...


Yeah, I sometimes find myself wishing there was more hours in the day lol. He's always looked at birds when they fly around. He also saw a squirrel in the backyard and tried to follow but not chase it. I wanna teach him to speak cause his bark is so cool but I don't know how. I have taught him to follow my finger when I point. For example I point and say cage and he goes in his cage


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

When his vision stabilizes at about 18 - 24 mos, you might be able to teach him to follow where you look! You might consider a gentle "Leave It!" when he investigate squirrels, cats, etc. You don't have to stop him every time, just teach him to return EVERY time you ask him to ... a Strong COME cue. Keep it up.

Bark on Cue:
1. Determine when he WILL bark, so that you can predict the bark. Sometimes staring at the dog will make him bark.
2. After he barks, say "Bark!" or "Speak!" and give him a tiny treat (Cut a hotdog into dime-slice pieces and cut those into fourths, for example).
3. Repeat for about 10 min. maybe twice a day.
4. The next day, say Bark! and wait, reward any sound. 
5. If no Sound, repeat Steps 1 & 2. ... Periodically, try step #4.

Note, feel free to compress all of these steps into one 10 min. session, if appropriate.
I taught my dog to count by delaying the reward, frustrating him so that he barked a second time. Later, I transferred to different cues and hand signals.

Second note: I made a minor mistake when I used this method ... I taught the dog to feel anxious or annoyed on cue  because I teased him to get him to bark.
If I ask him to Sit, no big deal, but if I ask him to speak, he gets excited.... He eventually learned not to get excited. Make sure that you fine tune the reward to get the type of bark that you want. ... Also, teach the dog to bark, when you just whisper the cue 

Third note: If you want a 'guard behavior' teach him to bark 5 times when you command, "Back Off!" I read that one trainer taught his friendly dog to jump and bark when the trainer said back-off. Then, if the trainer wanted to scare someone off, he'd tell them that he couldn't control his dog, while telling the dog 'back-off'


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

hes really done a complete 180


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Tyler_X said:


> hes really done a complete 180


Good to hear. How old is he now.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

d_ray said:


> Good to hear. How old is he now.


hes only 18 weeks, 19 on friday


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Don't know if I mentioned it earlier.... but at 4 - 5 mos, pups start to lose baby teeth, grow adult teeth, resulting in teething and sore gums. Nipping may increase, the need for chewing WILL increase, and obedience/learning may be erratic .... be patient and continue what you've been doing...


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> Don't know if I mentioned it earlier.... but at 4 - 5 mos, pups start to lose baby teeth, grow adult teeth, resulting in teething and sore gums. Nipping may increase, the need for chewing WILL increase, and obedience/learning may be erratic .... be patient and continue what you've been doing...


Yeah hes been wild recently, jumping and biting. He doesn't really bite me anymore but it seems like my mom is fair game. Only time he bites me is if Im wearing a sweatshirt or something and its really not even me he wants I think its just the sweatshirt. He is ruining my clothes though and money doesn't grow on trees ( I know my dog doesn't understand this concept) so how can I make him chill out especially if we are outside and there is nowhere for me to go(nowhere to put him in timeout outside)? My mom tells me alot of instances recently where he randomly bites her. She tells me she is afraid of him when he does it. I think its kinda humorous she is afraid of him but I'm not actually seeing whats happening between the two of them when she tells me what happened.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I believe that cookieface or I posted something about Bite Inhibition [Post #94]. If I remember incorrectly , search for Bite Inhibition in Forum ... Read thoroughly, implement, and teach your mom how to do it also. Even if you already trained him, you have to keep it up, especially during the teething phase.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> I believe that cookieface or I posted something about Bite Inhibition [Post #94]. If I remember incorrectly , search for Bite Inhibition in Forum ... Read thoroughly, implement, and teach your mom how to do it also. Even if you already trained him, you have to keep it up, especially during the teething phase.


yelping never worked for me bro i stopped trying that a long time ago lol, any type of "NO", "ouch" I don't do cause it just gets him worked up. The leash works if we are on a walk and he decides its ankle bite play time. So I'll try using it more outside not just on walks.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> When his vision stabilizes at about 18 - 24 mos, you might be able to teach him to follow where you look! You might consider a gentle "Leave It!" when he investigate squirrels, cats, etc. You don't have to stop him every time, just teach him to return EVERY time you ask him to ... a Strong COME cue. Keep it up.
> 
> Bark on Cue:
> 1. Determine when he WILL bark, so that you can predict the bark. Sometimes staring at the dog will make him bark.
> ...


I taught him how to bark a few days ago, it kinda just happened.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Alright guys this dog is officially too smart for his own good, hes figured out how to open the WIRE CRATE. How do I stop him from opening it? I told him to go in his cage went to the bathroom and came back and he was laying on my floor, i was like What the helll? I saw you go in there! I shut the door like I always do! So i put him back in 30 seconds later hes out again. Put him back in he opened it again!!! what do I do?


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

ill probably go get a safety latch or something


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

A couple of those keyring carabiners that you can get at Walgreens/CVS/Walmart type places are useful for clipping the crate latches down so the dog can't slide them open.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Shell said:


> A couple of those keyring carabiners that you can get at Walgreens/CVS/Walmart type places are useful for clipping the crate latches down so the dog can't slide them open.


thanks shell, this dog is a ninja


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