# When to start leash training & do you use choke chain?



## Lin

When do you start leash training? My puppy is currently 3 months and 3 weeks old. My friend recommended us using choke chain (it is about half effective when my boyfriend is using it but almost not effective when I am using it). 

I did some research and saw someone called Dr. Sophia Yin. I am trying to use her workshop demonstration. But it is not working out very well  My puppy will sit but then will go off immediately. I have done several sessions with my puppy now. He is not showing much improvement. Even at this point, he will only sit, but then won’t follow like the dog in the video. 

Anyone has any suggestion to when to start leash training? 

Here is the workshop video that I watched: 





Thank you in advance.


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## Pawzk9

Lin said:


> When do you start leash training? My puppy is currently 3 months and 3 weeks old. My friend recommended us using choke chain (it is about half effective when my boyfriend is using it but almost not effective when I am using it).
> 
> I did some research and saw someone called Dr. Sophia Yin. I am trying to use her workshop demonstration. But it is not working out very well  My puppy will sit but then will go off immediately. I have done several sessions with my puppy now. He is not showing much improvement. Even at this point, he will only sit, but then won’t follow like the dog in the video.
> 
> Anyone has any suggestion to when to start leash training?
> 
> Here is the workshop video that I watched:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you in advance.


Now's not too early. But there is no reason to use a choke chain to train a puppy (or any dog). http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/10/12/silky-leash/


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## EscVelocity

Pawzk9 said:


> Now's not too early. But there is no reason to use a choke chain to train a puppy (or any dog). http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/2008/10/12/silky-leash/


Loved the video, this will be a great help to me as well.


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## Labmom4

Now is definitely not too early to start. However, a choke shouldn't be used until at least 6 months of age, if at all. Use a regular plain collar until then. If you do decide to use a choke, it's cruicial that you are shown by a professional how to use it properly; maybe in some obediance classes with a good instructor. For as popular as they are, chokes are very widely mis-used and are dangerous if not used correctly.


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## Cracker

Yes, silky leash training is a great place to start. Give it a try.

And no you should NOT be using a choke chain on any dog less than six months old. I personally don't like them at all, even to the extent to say that I hate them. There is so much physical damage that can be done with them. Dogs pull, it's a natural thing for them (opposition reflex) and ninety percent of the folks I see using chokes have them fitted incorrectly, don't know how to properly use them and then profess wonder why the dog is still pulling (and damaging their throats while doing it). Any collar can damage the neck, but chokes are IMO the worst. 

There are many vids available out there for loose leash walking (see the Kikopup vids on youtube as well). You must also remember that your pup is an INFANT still, is not even sure the world is worth walking in and will also go through the 16 week "freeze up" that most of them go through...teaching a young dog to walk nicely on a leash is a long term training goal, not an immediate one. Get yourself some good puppy training books (positively based) and PRACTICE it inside and out without actually walking anywhere. You'll get there but you must pick a method and stick with it for a while before expecting to see results.


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## Pawzk9

With all the equipment available today, I can't imagine why anyone would use a chokie chain.


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## Labmom4

Pawzk9 said:


> With all the equipment available today, I can't imagine why anyone would use a chokie chain.


I'm recently reformed. I bought a martingale and wish I'd done it sooner. 

Lin ~ maybe you might want to consider a marti for training? But still, wait until your pup is 6 months to use it. It's a fantastic training tool and MUCH safer than a choker.


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## Prazaci

I started with my dog when he was about 3 months, at first we were using lot of different collars and harnesses to teach him to walk on leash correctly. Thought not a single one worked, as well as the choke chain. Few months later me and my dog walk with out leash with no problem.

Choke chain has to be put on correctly for it to actually function the way it should, check you-tube to see how to put it on and also how to use it. It a quick snap and a quick release if its done correctly with the correct snap the dog will learn in a month or two.


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## Pawzk9

Prazaci said:


> I started with my dog when he was about 3 months, at first we were using lot of different collars and harnesses to teach him to walk on leash correctly. Thought not a single one worked, as well as the choke chain. Few months later me and my dog walk with out leash with no problem.
> 
> Choke chain has to be put on correctly for it to actually function the way it should, check you-tube to see how to put it on and also how to use it. It a quick snap and a quick release if its done correctly with the correct snap the dog will learn in a month or two.


I actually use equipment (collar/harness/whatever) to limit the dog's options in the beginning, and later because we have a leash law. But the thing I use to teach a dog to walk with me correctly is me. And teaching attention to me. And teaching what to do if you (the dog) makes the leash tight. And it doesn't take a month or two to teach that. When you use equipment instead of yourself and your brain to train, you will be equipment dependent. Then you will probably have to keep switching to other equipment as your dog habituates to what you are currently using.


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## Prazaci

The harness we used was for dog tracking so it didn't work for walking on leash right next to your foot. A regular collar didn't work because he was to crazy and when ever he pulled and you tried to pull him back he took it as a game. However when he tried pulling on a choke chain he wouldn't do it for to long because of course it wasn't to comfortable. Now if I use the metro, tram or bus where I need him on a leash there is no pulling from his side and he walks directly next to my left foot. If I now take the leash off he will walk next to my foot as well with out running away or falling back he will keep the same speed as me. 

We don't have many dog laws here like in the states, I can even take my dog to a restaurant pr bar if I wish too, as long as hes train well enough.

I used a choke chain, my dog is still alive with no neck injuries, he walks perfectly on leash and with out leash...if you know how to use it you can teach him quick if you dont it takes time. If you dont have the time and only teach him once or twice a week it will take longer...

Also how uncool is it to have your dog on a leash and have your hands fool, I enjoy the freedom of hands free and long walks where he can run free with out me being chained to him like a cell mate


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## Pawzk9

Prazaci said:


> The harness we used was for dog tracking so it didn't work for walking on leash right next to your foot. A regular collar didn't work because he was to crazy and when ever he pulled and you tried to pull him back he took it as a game. However when he tried pulling on a choke chain he wouldn't do it for to long because of course it wasn't to comfortable. Now if I use the metro, tram or bus where I need him on a leash there is no pulling from his side and he walks directly next to my left foot. If I now take the leash off he will walk next to my foot as well with out running away or falling back he will keep the same speed as me.
> 
> We don't have many dog laws here like in the states, I can even take my dog to a restaurant pr bar if I wish too, as long as hes train well enough.
> 
> I used a choke chain, my dog is still alive with no neck injuries, he walks perfectly on leash and with out leash...if you know how to use it you can teach him quick if you dont it takes time. If you dont have the time and only teach him once or twice a week it will take longer...


Certainly it can work (eventually) and probably the majority of dogs who wear them are not injured by choke chains (though some are). It's not something I would ever use on a puppy (well, these days its not something I would use on ANY dog) and I can't imagine trying to teach a dog loose leash walking with a tracking harness. Now, a front attach harness or a harness with two points of attachment can be very useful in managing a dog while you TEACH the dog where you want him. But the teaching doesn't come from anything the dog is wearing. It comes from me (and sometimes my clicker). (Wish I could routinely take my dogs in restaurants and bars though)


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## Prazaci

We use to clicker only for tricks such as crawl, play dead, spin right spin left, bark and so on. For leash walking I used the choke chain, for using the mall escalators I used fear factor (getting on the escalator and leaving him behind) after few barks and cries he jumps on, now he actually loves escalators so much that sometimes we go to the metro station just to ride them. Choke chain was also very helpful to teach him to get on the tram, Prague is very busy so he needs to do it quick and with out running people. I prefer choke chain over electric collar...now my dog is 8 months old, we dont use to leash unless we use public transport.

Czech is dog friendly if you go to a bar or a restaurant you can even ask for a dog bowl for water. Parks here...not a single on leash dog sign...


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## Pawzk9

Prazaci said:


> We use to clicker only for tricks such as crawl, play dead, spin right spin left, bark and so on. For leash walking I used the choke chain, for using the mall escalators I used fear factor (getting on the escalator and leaving him behind) after few barks and cries he jumps on, now he actually loves escalators so much that sometimes we go to the metro station just to ride them. Choke chain was also very helpful to teach him to get on the tram, Prague is very busy so he needs to do it quick and with out running people. I prefer choke chain over electric collar...now my dog is 8 months old, we dont use to leash unless we use public transport.
> ...


I noticed you were using the clicker in your videos. A question - could you teach your dog to "crawl" by popping a choke chain? I think it would be very difficult because you can't "correct" your dog into difficult behaviors and the clicker works much better (though I probably would try to get rid of that lure really quickly). If the clicker works better for complex behaviors, why wouldn't it also work better for things like staying with you? Might be able to teach it in less than a month or two, that way. I've never quite understood why people sometimes think their most powerful tool is only good for tricks. And by the way, welcome to the forum. Your dog is very cute.


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## Prazaci

At the time when we were leash training we didn't have the clicker, even then would I prefer choke chain over clicker because leash walking we trained out side the comforts of home so there were alot more distractions there for popping the chain would of been a better correction than click. I live in the capitol city which is full of dogs, cars, birds and flying papers which would interest my dog more than a clicker. We cant even practice play dead outside because there is just more interesting things outside than a cracker with a clicker. 

The lure in the first video you have seen is a cracker which is used for the dog to crawl, if you look at our video which was made later the lure is no longer than yet still used as a reward. How do you show your dog than he needs to crawl after something if there is nothing for him to see or smell? My methods might not be the most popular but they do work, just fyi the video where the dog crawls is the 3rd try so for a 3rd try I think he did very well...

A different task a different method, do you also use the clicker to teach him to spot?


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## Pawzk9

Prazaci said:


> At the time when we were leash training we didn't have the clicker, even then would I prefer choke chain over clicker because leash walking we trained out side the comforts of home so there were alot more distractions there for popping the chain would of been a better correction than click. I live in the capitol city which is full of dogs, cars, birds and flying papers which would interest my dog more than a clicker. We cant even practice play dead outside because there is just more interesting things outside than a cracker with a clicker.
> 
> The lure in the first video you have seen is a cracker which is used for the dog to crawl, if you look at our video which was made later the lure is no longer than yet still used as a reward. How do you show your dog than he needs to crawl after something if there is nothing for him to see or smell? My methods might not be the most popular but they do work, just fyi the video where the dog crawls is the 3rd try so for a 3rd try I think he did very well...
> 
> A different task a different method, do you also use the clicker to teach him to spot?


Can you describe "spot" to me? I suspect I might call it something else. Generally I don't do a lot of lure training, though I did start with a lure (target stick, not food) to teach crawl. Thing about lures is that you need to get rid of them pretty fast or they can be difficult to fade. In most cases, I tend to shape instead of lure. And my dog recently practiced her "tricks" off leash at an outdoor "circus" event full of dropped food everywhere, loud music, balloons popping, and people dressed up as clowns. The clowns didn't bother her, but they did bother me a bit. A clicker can certainly be used in high distraction environments, though that's not where I would choose to do my first training on a behavior.


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## Prazaci

Spot, several man but only one bed one, by doing a certain move it triggers the dog to attack him and leave him be on command, not something you would reward with a clicker but a little rougher play such as fighting over rope or a tire.

I hope you dont consider walking with out a leash as a trick because here in Czech its still considered proper dog behavior. Ballons pooping why should that bother anyone http://www.stream.cz/uservideo/345002-sena-a-balonky friends dog 
Circus?http://www.stream.cz/uservideo/248270-sena-a-strom

whats a traget and we never had a problem removing crackers


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## Pawzk9

Prazaci said:


> Spot, several man but only one bed one, by doing a certain move it triggers the dog to attack him and leave him be on command, not something you would reward with a clicker but a little rougher play such as fighting over rope or a tire.



I no longer do protection activities with my dogs. I don't expect them to attack anyone (though I did do Schutzhund at one time, many years ago) If I did, yes, I would teach it with a clicker. The click doesn't have to be followed by food. It has to be followed by a primary reinforcer that the dog values. Which could easily be rough play




Prazaci said:


> I hope you dont consider walking with out a leash as a trick because here in Czech its still considered proper dog behavior. Ballons pooping why should that bother anyone http://www.stream.cz/uservideo/345002-sena-a-balonky friends dog
> Circus?http://www.stream.cz/uservideo/248270-sena-a-strom
> 
> whats a traget and we never had a problem removing crackers


I consider behavior to be behavior, whether it is walking with a loose leash (or no leash) or crawling. To the dog it is all the same. And I expect reliability on any behavior that is taught whether it is a life-or-death skill or a cute trick. Granted I may work harder on a life-or-death skill, but if I couldn't do it in a distracting environment, I'd consider the behavior not to be "learned". As to balloons popping and the rest of that, just an example of how my dog can work outdoors, off leash, in a very distracting environment without having to be trained with a choke chain. All her training (including loose leash and off leash) was trained with a clicker. A target is something the dog knows to touch with nose or foot. Great for teaching a lot of skills without having to lead with food.


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## Irishman

Your problem will not be solved with a collar of any kind. You need to play attention games with your puppy. I've just been reading about the whole thing, and your issue sounds like your puppy gets over-excited by the environment, and once over a certain threshold, a dog will not pay any attention to you. Your puppy isn't being disrespectful - it's like a very young child in a mega-toy store. Their parents don't get a lot of attention. Look up the Kikopup videos on Youtube. She discusses games for getting and keeping your dog's attention. What it boils down to is making you more interesting than the environment. I won't describe the games here, as she does a much better job. 

A choke collar isn't going to help, and the reason is that a dog, just like a human, has a push-pull opposition reflex. Put a leash on a dog that doesn't want to walk, and try pulling them a bit. They dig in their heels and refuse to move. And they develop a dislike for leashes. Get a clicker and some high-value treats, and consider also buying a good book. Several are recommended on this forum, and I'm currently reading through Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training, by Pamela Dennison. It's a great book.


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## Prazaci

I cant agree Irishman, my dog had issues when it came to walking on leash and a choke collar fixed it in fact most dog schools here use to the choke collar technique, the one we wanted to attend even trained police dogs and they use choke collars on them as well. I think you have to understand the choke collar before using it, I dont know how well it worked for others but it did work for us very well and very fest.

There is also a certain behavior that must come from your end as well while using the choke collar, you can think that a popping the collar will make it all good there has to be a certain way of doing it and a good consistency 

All tricks and behaviors have to be though, some dogs can learn faster in a loud environment and some in a quiet one. My learns much faster at home than outside but once he understands the concept of the trick he can preform it anywhere.

We dont really do spotting but we do other activities to keep his brain occupied, next stop is hiding a toy and making him sniff it out just like police dogs do with drugs and bombs.


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## Pawzk9

Prazaci said:


> All tricks and behaviors have to be though, some dogs can learn faster in a loud environment and some in a quiet one. My learns much faster at home than outside but once he understands the concept of the trick he can preform it anywhere.
> 
> We dont really do spotting but we do other activities to keep his brain occupied, next stop is hiding a toy and making him sniff it out just like police dogs do with drugs and bombs.


I don't think I've ever met a dog who actually learns better in an environment with a lot of distractions. Most dogs learn best at home or in a familiar place. But once a behavior is learned, (however they are learned - with a clicker or with aversives) you should be able to take them on the road and get to the point where dogs can perform the behavior virtually anywhere. That's part of the teaching process, and until the dog can do so, I don't consider that they really know that behavior. 

I'm doing scentwork with one of my dogs as well. Went to a seminar last weekend with one of the guys who headed the project to teach rats to detect land mines (and tuberculosis) in Africa. He also consults with various military and police dog trainers on more modern and informative ways to train their dogs than the old fashioned choke collar methods.


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## wvasko

Choke collar on a pup is similar to hunting mosquitoes with an elephant gun and I am a self confessed Negative reinforcement trainer. My opinion only.


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## Prazaci

I still cant agree! My dog was thought on this collar and preforms everywhere just like the way he was thought just by saying one word. About a month and a half ago we even took him to Germany which is 8 hour train ride for us, if we didn't train him well enough there would be no way of taking him since it was the train where we needed the best behavior.

Actually while sent sniffing a dog needs to be at least 10 meters in front of you, for this activity you use a leash about 15 meters long  guy should of told you....


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## Pawzk9

Prazaci said:


> I still cant agree! My dog was thought on this collar and preforms everywhere just like the way he was thought just by saying one word. About a month and a half ago we even took him to Germany which is 8 hour train ride for us, if we didn't train him well enough there would be no way of taking him since it was the train where we needed the best behavior.
> 
> Actually while sent sniffing a dog needs to be at least 10 meters in front of you, for this activity you use a leash about 15 meters long  guy should of told you....


You don't have to agree. The fact is, you can train a dog with a choke chain, but it certainly isn't necessary. My dog who is doing scent work generally does it off leash, but custom and drug dogs don't do it on a 15 meter leash. They work closer to their handlers than that.


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## wvasko

Prazaci said:


> I still cant agree! My dog was thought on this collar and preforms everywhere just like the way he was thought just by saying one word. About a month and a half ago we even took him to Germany which is 8 hour train ride for us, if we didn't train him well enough there would be no way of taking him since it was the train where we needed the best behavior.
> 
> Actually while sent sniffing a dog needs to be at least 10 meters in front of you, for this activity you use a leash about 15 meters long  guy should of told you....


No problem, you and your dog have a partnership that's working.

It's the variables that bother me with choke chains. You could gunshy young bird dog pups with a cap pistol and other pups you could take to an Artillery firing range and some pups would/could fall asleep during firing exercises. 

It's the individual dog that makes any type of training the dog a success or failure with all types of training tools.


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