# The DogFather?



## Sookie's mom

Hi there.....
While channel surfing last night, I stopped at an infomercial selling -- The DogFather, "Don Sullivan's Secrets to Training the Perfect Dog". It's supposed to somehow get your dog trained in record time (sounded like magic to me). Has anyone heard of it? It comes with some sort of plastic prong looking non-shock collar. It just sounded like an informercial should....tells you what you want to hear for only eight easy payments of $500 plus s/h. (That's *not* how much this thing costs.) 
But I am curious about it and does anyone know anything about it?

It gives the website.... www.theperfectdog.com

Thanks


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## lewmaster

I have a friend who tried out this system and frankly they weren't blown away with the results. Usually with these things, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is


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## rogueslg71

i think with training and everything else, you can always do it all yourself, but after you pay, people normally put more 'effort' into it cause they paid money. then they succeed and it gets added into the 'success' stories of these infomercials. but its really all about your own dedication


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## pajamajes

I just saw the infomercial. Sounds like a scam to me. It didn't state one thing about his training methods or what is actually on the DVD's. Just 30 minutes of telling you what your dog will magically do if you pay $200. Bull.


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## Loops

I got this product because we have a boisterous and cheeky Yorkie plus another pup who is copying the behaviour. The elder dog has had us to ransome and siege at our back door, bolting through the house, every bad behaviour you can think of.

I've included my ten year old daughter in watching the DVDs and it all makes sense to her. Our naughty dog is behaving even for my daughter when the collar is on and that's with 5 minutes of her being sensible with training the dog.

As for the use of the collar: You treat it like a choke chain and basically give your beloved dog a bit of a friendly chomp around the neck when it misbehaves. It doesn't want to pull on the collar, our doggy was marching alongside anyone who held the lead and got so much praise for being good she was adorably different.

If your dog is stressing you out then buy this product. I was at my wits end, arguments with my husband about the dogs being out of control etc and, they're tiny, not a big breed. I can now see some light at the end of a very small dog sized tunnel!

Will keep you all informed of progress.


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## wvasko

Many years ago I knew a trainer that had 10 kennels setup on concrete pad. The kennels were 5 on a side facing each other with a 12 ft walkway between kennels. He would get people to bring their dogs and he would put a dog in each kennel and then he would take his dog and do obedience work on walkway between kennels.
He had the owners convinced that the 10 dogs were learning obedience watching him work his dog. I don't remember what he charged 15.00 a dog maybe, he would work his dog 20 minutes to a half hour. He would hook them for 2 or 3 lessons etc. It was an easy 150.00 that he would take to the local pub and start his night job drinking. We are much more sophisticated now we have dog psychics, Internet, infomercials etc. etc. etc. There is always somebody out there that will take your money if you are that silly. The real secret of dog training is work and lots of it not doo-dads. My opinion Only.

When I was done writing this I read an entry about success with the product. It said a friendly chomp with the collar and it worked great just like a choke collar. Well a choke collar for a small dog is about 5.00.
__________________
Dinosaur Dog Trainer


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## Loops

I intend to use this product to get some results that we can use. i.e. we now know that the naughty dog is intelligent enough to be trained, it is a tool, not an answer to every dog training problem. Our other Yorkie is totally different. We need a reprieve from the bad behaviour then, we can work on it after that, without the collar. We are emotionally abused by this cute little thing and for the price it is like a magical open door. It cost me about £40 but it's like we've just been shown that our dog is being a little monster and she CAN be trained. That's all we needed. 

I do think that the product is over priced and I do believe that you should be able to train your dog without it! Sometimes though, it doesn't work out the way you wanted. The DVD is full of helpful advice which is not related to the training method, it's just common sense that you can see and hear and be reminded about when you've lost your wits and are totally taken over. I'm not kidding you at all when I say that in our house this tiny dog is ruling the roost and creating so much stress it's unbelievable. We love dogs.

Tinkerbelle is now "staying on her bed when told, going back to her bed when told, not pulling on the lease during walks, sitting, lying down, staying when told....all in half an hour over 2 days....it's ritillin for this particular canine.

I have had Yorkshire terriers in our family since I was a child and we have always been able to train them in the old fashioned way. Not this one though! She's barking her head off right this minute and it's 10 to 1 in the morning!

Problem about barking is I don't want to sleep next to the dogs waiting for her to bark so I can give her a tugging chomp on her expensive plastic collar.

So that you know what the chomp is.........

The collar has large, blunt plastic teeth on the inside. You pull it like a choke chain and it gives them a friendly "chomp" that they can't ignore.

Call it cruel if you like but the teeth are totally blunt and cruel is me getting my ankle snapped in little jaws that I kick out at. Dog thinks it's great fun when my hands are full off shopping bags.

Don't mock the product until you've used it and come out of an abusive relationship with your little pal and smiling about it. 

I should post a video I suppose


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## wvasko

Loops said:


> I intend to use this product to get some results that we can use. i.e. we now know that the naughty dog is intelligent enough to be trained, it is a tool, not an answer to every dog training problem. Our other Yorkie is totally different. We need a reprieve from the bad behaviour then, we can work on it after that, without the collar. We are emotionally abused by this cute little thing and for the price it is like a magical open door. It cost me about £40 but it's like we've just been shown that our dog is being a little monster and she CAN be trained.  That's all we needed.
> 
> I do think that the product is over priced and I do believe that you should be able to train your dog without it! Sometimes though, it doesn't work out the way you wanted. The DVD is full of helpful advice which is not related to the training method, it's just common sense that you can see and hear and be reminded about when you've lost your wits and are totally taken over. I'm not kidding you at all when I say that in our house this tiny dog is ruling the roost and creating so much stress it's unbelievable. We love dogs.
> 
> Tinkerbelle is now "staying on her bed when told, going back to her bed when told, not pulling on the lease during walks, sitting, lying down, staying when told....all in half an hour over 2 days....it's ritillin for this particular canine.
> 
> I have had Yorkshire terriers in our family since I was a child and we have always been able to train them in the old fashioned way. Not this one though! She's barking her head off right this minute and it's 10 to 1 in the morning!
> 
> Problem about barking is I don't want to sleep next to the dogs waiting for her to bark so I can give her a tugging chomp on her expensive plastic collar.
> 
> So that you know what the chomp is.........
> 
> The collar has large, blunt plastic teeth on the inside. You pull it like a choke chain and it gives them a friendly "chomp" that they can't ignore.
> 
> Call it cruel if you like but the teeth are totally blunt and cruel is me getting my ankle snapped in little jaws that I kick out at. Dog thinks it's great fun when my hands are full off shopping bags.
> 
> Don't mock the product until you've used it and come out of an abusive relationship with your little pal and smiling about it.
> 
> I should post a video I suppose


Loops
I did not say anything about cruel, as I am primarily a prong collar trainer. I don't like or use choke collars. I was not interested in training methods just rip off artists. This collar basically sounds like a plastic pinch collar, if you're getting results keep up the good work.


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## Loops

Don't worry, I wasn't feeling like that at all. It's that old reading between the lines thing again. Thanks for your politeness and I'm sorry if my post read as though I am upset in any way.

Collar is still working a treat though!!!!


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## Lonewolfblue

pajamajes said:


> I just saw the infomercial. Sounds like a scam to me. It didn't state one thing about his training methods or what is actually on the DVD's. Just 30 minutes of telling you what your dog will magically do if you pay $200. Bull.


Where did you get the $200.00? I see it as 2 payments of $29.95......



Loops said:


> I intend to use this product to get some results that we can use. i.e. we now know that the naughty dog is intelligent enough to be trained, it is a tool, not an answer to every dog training problem. Our other Yorkie is totally different. We need a reprieve from the bad behaviour then, we can work on it after that, without the collar. We are emotionally abused by this cute little thing and for the price it is like a magical open door. It cost me about £40 but it's like we've just been shown that our dog is being a little monster and she CAN be trained. That's all we needed.
> 
> I do think that the product is over priced and I do believe that you should be able to train your dog without it! Sometimes though, it doesn't work out the way you wanted. The DVD is full of helpful advice which is not related to the training method, it's just common sense that you can see and hear and be reminded about when you've lost your wits and are totally taken over. I'm not kidding you at all when I say that in our house this tiny dog is ruling the roost and creating so much stress it's unbelievable. We love dogs.
> 
> Tinkerbelle is now "staying on her bed when told, going back to her bed when told, not pulling on the lease during walks, sitting, lying down, staying when told....all in half an hour over 2 days....it's ritillin for this particular canine.
> 
> I have had Yorkshire terriers in our family since I was a child and we have always been able to train them in the old fashioned way. Not this one though! She's barking her head off right this minute and it's 10 to 1 in the morning!
> 
> Problem about barking is I don't want to sleep next to the dogs waiting for her to bark so I can give her a tugging chomp on her expensive plastic collar.
> 
> So that you know what the chomp is.........
> 
> The collar has large, blunt plastic teeth on the inside. You pull it like a choke chain and it gives them a friendly "chomp" that they can't ignore.
> 
> Call it cruel if you like but the teeth are totally blunt and cruel is me getting my ankle snapped in little jaws that I kick out at. Dog thinks it's great fun when my hands are full off shopping bags.
> 
> Don't mock the product until you've used it and come out of an abusive relationship with your little pal and smiling about it.
> 
> I should post a video I suppose


Try using this program on a hardened dog like a heeler. I'm sure the results will stun you. You say that you give the dog a "Friendly Chomp" with the collar? I've tried using a Prong collar with my Betty, and it works on the same basis, but some feel they are a little more harsh than the plastic ones, but they both work on the same principle. Working with Betty in environments where she was reactive, what did that technique do? It elevated her reactivity. I was introduced to the prong by my trainer here to work on her issues. Well, it didn't take 2 days of trying it that I told the trainer, NO MORE PRONG. I still use it in training for Rally with Betty and Nell for Obedience, but only for better control. It's not used to give a "Friendly Chomp". And once I get them where I want them, then I plan on slowly phasing out the prong and work towards using just a flat collar.

Edit:
I did see the video where the gal had a Queensland Heeler, and she was impressed with her results. Not all Heelers are hardened dogs, but there are some out there, like my Betty. It almost makes me think that maybe she's been worked on with the prong in a negative way prior to me getting her. When I would give that "Friendly Chomp", it would only do one thing, turn on a light switch. Full Blown Lunging.

Another Edit:
After reading some more, I came across this. This is kind of hard for me to handle....


> Q10: Don’s show claims, “No more fattening treat training!” Will I never use treats as part of Don Sullivan’s “Secrets to Training the Perfect Dog” System?
> 
> A: You will never use treats; ever. Treats are not only unnecessary, but they can actually be detrimental to the training process for a number of reasons which are explained in Don Sullivan’s training DVDs. There is absolutely no correlation between the new-age method of treat training and the way dogs deal with each other in their own world. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. By using Don’s System, your relationship with your dog will be based on true love and respect, with the rewards of praise and freedom. You will no longer have to attempt to “buy” your dog’s attention or affection. For more information, CLICK HERE to read Don’s Training Philosophy.


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## Loops

When you get the product delivered there is a quick start manual just like with a DVD player. It mentions that use of the collar can bring about aggressive behaviour from your dog. Not to use it around children if your dog shows aggressive behaviour also. There is a disclaimer and so on.

I remember that 20 years ago I lived with a boyfriend and he had a 10 month old Doberman bitch who was being just that! He ran a dog racing track and was advised in an old fashioned way by seasoned greyhound owners that next time the dog showed her teeth then to go to town on her in a full body fight and show her who's boss. It was an awful sight to behold and the dog (Tara) ended up whimpering in the corner feeling very sorry for herself. 

It was quite a frightening thing at the time, all snarls and shouting but, she turned into the most wonderful animal who would even bend her head on your lap on command to have her ears cleaned with a cotton bud. Soft as butter! She went from being the scurge of the neighbourhood to being the friendliest Doberman anyone had ever met.

I obviously don't recommend that treatment at all (I'm no pro or similar) and all I'm trying to say is that different circumstances can sometimes demand extreme measures. If you did that kind of thing now you'd be arrested for cruelty with the dog demanding to see it's lawyer!

Here is the link for purchasing the collar and DVDs from England which shows the price etc. £39.95 plus £6.95 P&P.
http://www.thanedirect.co.uk/products/housewares/perfectdog/perfectdog.php

Here is a long snippet from the suppliers site:
Hi don
I've just found your web page, I'm one of the people that has used lots of different collars and other training methods? I was wondering if I could use this collar for one of my wee dogs who is aggressive towards my wee weakling there's only three months between them and when one was 6 weeks pregnant she attacked the weak one and since then it's been hell that was one and half year's ago. Would this help me train her to stop trying to kill her. I now have 5 wee dogs. Please HELP.
I hope to hear from you soon.
My Regards Maggie

Thane says:
Hi Maggie
We assume yo have also discussed this with your vet. If you have a generally aggressive dog, Don advises specific care and you should read more on his site about this. 
The Perfect Dog system is comprehensive and may be right for you. The system is ostensibly a DVD package which has about 3 hours of footage and you need to take time to watch this. Don's DVD package teaches you to use voice and hand commands and creates a respectful environment in a safe and gentle way.
There is a command collar which is NOT a “pinch collar” - it does not use prongs. The collar has a few very dull (certainly not sharp!), plastic toggles that are more gentle than a prong, pinch or choke collars which Don does not use. 
The goal is to only use this training collar for 2-4 weeks after which time you are ready to move on. To clarify: The methods do not use food or treats and there is positive reinforcement and occasional “corrections” which are LIGHT pulls on the collar.
There are MANY warnings and discussions about how little force is actually necessary. We would never advocate any sort of cruelty and have been reassured by Don and his team as well as many of his clients that this system works gently.

Don's goal is to get you to be fully “off leash capable” within 4 weeks. 

We suggest you give it a go and if unsure you can take it to your vets and they will talk you through it too. If the vet does not think it is useful you have a money back guarantee! But so far we have some great feedback from customers who have telephoned us to buy extra balls or even more collars for other dogs.


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## DogGoneGood

Looks to work about the same as a prong collar... which, through the company I get them from, is about $10.00. Also their 'freedom training line" looks exactly like the rope you can buy at a hardware store for dirt cheep... you can buy clips at hardware stores for dirt cheep as well 

wvasko, your story about your friend training by "demonstraiting to other dogs" made me laugh so hard. Thanks for the giggle


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## Curbside Prophet

Jerk and puke methods, no matter what kind of 'tool' you're using or how "gentle" you claim them to be, are still jerk and puke methods. Furthermore, anyone who doesn't acknowledge food as a beneficial reinforcer, and would go out of their way to claim they are detrimental, does not understand the basic principles of learning theory. For that, this dude would never see a dollar of mine.


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## Loops

Prong, pinch and choke collars all seem to have a bit of a bad name over here in the UK. Choke collars no where near as much. Not sure why?! Can anyone enlighten me?

It won't be long before a Dogfather style collar is more widely available i.e. something that doesn't look as harsh as metal, all plastic.

It's all rather silly really, you can buy an electronic collar that zaps your dogs to certain degrees of discomfort, you can buy anti barking sonic devices that could impede their hearing and result in behavioural problems far worse than those already being experienced. You can buy devices that stop your dog from crossing the garden perimeter, put down rotten smelling chemicals on your garden which are bad for the environment. Perhaps get them neutered because no one wants a pup sired or whelped from a badly behaved dog do they, so why not take that ultimate step and be done with it, guaranteed compliance?

This is very clever marketing from Thane UK and if it sells over the next few months then it's worth it for them. Flash in the pan and totally nickable idea, meanwhile, it is a much kinder alternative to some things you can feel yourself buying (or getting the vet to do) due to desperation. Cheaper than replacing the door that's been scratched to bits too I supppose!

I do still give my little ones food treats and, now that they've stopped begging at the table, they get a reward of the healthy left overs like rice, veg and meat once a day. It's amazing what a raw piece of carrot can do too!


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## wvasko

DogGoneGood said:


> Looks to work about the same as a prong collar... which, through the company I get them from, is about $10.00. Also their 'freedom training line" looks exactly like the rope you can buy at a hardware store for dirt cheep... you can buy clips at hardware stores for dirt cheep as well
> 
> wvasko, your story about your friend training by "demonstraiting to other dogs" made me laugh so hard. Thanks for the giggle


DogGoneGood
Actually, he was way ahead of his time. No aversive/negative training done to the kenneled watching dogs at all, also no positive work done to the dogs. Hey wait a minute!!!!!!!! There was nothing done to the dogs. Holy Cow!!!!!!!! If he posted on this forum, There would be no argument from the negative trainers or the positive trainers Hmmmmmmmm! Of course he would tell the owners that this program should work with dogs of average intelligence, so he did have an out. I don't think the below average intelligence owners thought it was funny.


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## Loops

So who wants me to send them the DVD when I've finished with it then? (maybe in a few weeks from now) You will laugh your socks off. Will post anywhere in the world but I must say it has helped enormously in our household.


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## wvasko

Loops

*Don's goal is to get you to be fully “off leash capable” within 4 weeks. *

Let's just think about it, I can work the dog 1 day and say I expect the dog to be fully off leash capable in 2 days Of course it may take me 6 months to accomplish the feat. When somebody says the word fully he's not talking about heeling your dog from the kitchen to the front room. I'm going to assume it means walking through a dog park off leash to be *fully capable.* Just a thought.


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## Loops

He mean's off the leash in the park, the shops, the butchers with sausages in their faces. I can actually envisage it with my dogs right this week, then they're only little things and quite dumb and surprised right now. Long term.....probrably not going to happen, but I will repost and report if my tiny dogs run off to chase the ducks once more or not.


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## wvasko

Loops said:


> He mean's off the leash in the park, the shops, the butchers with sausages in their faces. I can actually envisage it with my dogs right this week, then they're only little things and quite dumb and surprised right now. Long term.....probrably not going to happen, but I will repost and report if my tiny dogs run off to chase the ducks once more or not.


Well all kidding aside it sounds like you got a head on your shoulders and taking everything with a grain of salt. I wish you lot's of luck with your little rapscallions.


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## DogGoneGood

I honestly can't see ANY dog being "FULLY" trained off leash in 4 weeks... If you work really hard every single day then there will be HUGE improvement in 4 weeks, but I can't see, with ANY method, a dog being 'FULLY' trained in that amount of time...



Curbside Prophet said:


> Jerk and puke methods, no matter what kind of 'tool' you're using or how "gentle" you claim them to be, are still jerk and puke methods. Furthermore, anyone who doesn't acknowledge food as a beneficial reinforcer, and would go out of their way to claim they are detrimental, does not understand the basic principles of learning theory. For that, this dude would never see a dollar of mine.


I've used choke and prong collars for years and not once did I "jerk" it, and not once did they "puke"... so I must say your name for these collars is rather false, but that's all I'll say on the subject


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## Curbside Prophet

DogGoneGood said:


> I've used choke and prong collars for years and not once did I "jerk" it, and not once did they "puke"... so I must say your name for these collars is rather false, but that's all I'll say on the subject


You must have thought I was referring to the action of the collar...no. "Jerk" is a noun, and "puke" is how I feel about this noun's lack of understanding in learning theory. These are both accurate, IMO, in describing the subject jerk in this thread.

Any way you want to describe the action, it's a game of semantics...the end result is still a physical punishment.


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## wvasko

DogGoneGood said:


> I honestly can't see ANY dog being "FULLY" trained off leash in 4 weeks... If you work really hard every single day then there will be HUGE improvement in 4 weeks, but I can't see, with ANY method, a dog being 'FULLY' trained in that amount of time...
> 
> 
> 
> I've used choke and prong collars for years and not once did I "jerk" it, and not once did they "puke"... so I must say your name for these collars is rather false, but that's all I'll say on the subject


Doggone
Yes that's what I'm saying the "fully capable off lead 4 wks"is an outright fraudulent statement for 99.99% of the dogs and owners out there. Somewhere I'm sure there is a dog that in all probability would not have left his owner before he tried the new collar on that would fullfill the program as advertised. As far as the easier type collar just reverse the prong and double with a martingale collar and the nice easy program for dog is the same. You know what, I don't care people can buy or use whatever they want, That's the beauty of the system, you buy, you try, and then you cry. Or you are a winner.

CP 
Of course it's physical punishment.


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## TN_LAB

rogueslg71 said:


> i think with training and everything else, you can always do it all yourself, but after you pay, people normally put more 'effort' into it cause they paid money. then they succeed and it gets added into the 'success' stories of these infomercials. but its really all about your own dedication


precisely why this system should work.

pajames....why so skeptical? he is selling his advice and methods...you dont expect him to give that for free on an infomercial, do you? i sell investments and financial advice. i had a guy come to my office a few weeks ago and i outlined a plan and made a proposal for him. he called me a week later and said he wanted to evaluate specific bonds and stocks...to which i told him "that's what my clients pay me for." seems this guy wanted me to do the legwork and wanted my ideas, but didn't want to hire me. needless to say, i recended my offer to allow him to hire me.


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## blunder

All collars regardless of design do exactly the same thing, they just do it in different ways. Having trained competitive dogs for over 50 years I have watched training methods evolve in many different ways. The irony is that they all work, it is just a matter of which best suits you and your dogs needs. The methods I use for training one of my field trial dogs would be completely inappropriate for training one of my show dogs, but both work for training a dog to play in the back yard with the grandkids.

I'll pass along some advice that was given to me;
"I will answer all of your questions to the best of my ability and I will try to show you all that I know. But, it is then up to you to apply what you have been shown in an intelligent, timely, and humane manner.

All I ask in return is that your mind remains open to what is offered, not just by me now, but by others in the future and not just to people and ideas you respect but to the ones you respect least.

What you learn - pass on. There are no secrets."

Dana Brown Ester

A closed mind stagnates the evelution of training methods, and it has been my experence that would not be in ours or our dogs best interest.
blunder


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## DogGoneGood

Okay, I can't just "leave it" anymore... (this will eventually get back to "the DogFather, I promise!)

I've seen SEVERAL times on this forum now where people compare training collars like choke chains and prong collars to ANIMAL ABUSE! Every time I read this a little vomit rasies in the back of my throat.

I'm wondering if any of these people saying these collars are cruel have tried them... and I don't mean on the dog, I mean on THEMSELVES!

Before doing my research on Prong Collars I was extremely wary and quite intimidated by them... it DID look like some type of midevel torture device and the last thing I wanted to do was hurt my dog! When Coal was about 3 was when I got one... I had tried EVERYTHING to keep him from pulling that I could find. I tried the stand like a tree method, I tried clicker training, I tried walking myself dizzy in circles, I tried a gentle leader, moved up to a choke chain, and nothing worked. He still pulled if he found something interesting when he was on the gentle leader and I was worried he'd hurt himself, I used a choke chain PROPERLY and my arm was still nearly being pulled out of place and my dog was litterly choking himself on it. Finally I tried the prong and it worked AMAZINGLY.

However, before I tried it on him, I tried it on my own, thin bony, no fur, arm. It didn't hurt at all. It was extremely uncomfortable, but it didn't actually PINCH. It was just really annoying and uncomfortable. And a dogs neck is the toughest part on their body!

Coal's now 5 and a half and we've tried numberous times to fade from the prong to a regular collar. We're currently in the process of trying again. He's just one of those dogs that pull pull pull!

Linkin, I went through many of the same steps with. When I was at school he LITTERLY pulled my arm out of place when using a choke chain (which is what we were trained to use), so I had to use a prong collar to prevent further damaging my shoulder. The only time we need a prong collar with him now is in high populated areas where there are more distractions, but living out in the boonies I've had little oportunites to do distraction training. I bet if I lived in town he'd be completely off the prong collar by now. We'll get there, though slower than he's capable of, but that's a matter of resources.

I'm NOT saying these tools are for EVERY dog. I'm just saying that I don't think people should write them off completely. I don't use treats for a lot of training (though DO still use them for some things) but I haven't written them off completely. I think the clicker is a useless tool, but again, haven't written it off completely and still hang onto mine because who knows? I may get a dog who responds better to an emotionless "click" than good old fashioned praise.

EVERY tool available for training has it's place. Obviously there is not one method that fits every dog, or we wouldn't have an over abundence amount of tools invented to train dogs.

This DogFather looks to do about the same as a ProngCollar would, it just claims to be more gentle and doesn't LOOK as bad and imposing. Maybe there are some dogs out there who just really need that, I'm sure there are, but I think if there's already a tool available that does exactly the same thing what's the point in creating another one? It's like the Gentle Leader and the Halti... same thing really.

I also don't like seeing any trainer giving a *garantee* on a set amount of time that your dog will be trained. BECAUSE every dog is different, it's really impossible to put any garantee on one method of training for every dog, in the same amount of time.


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## blunder

Course' ya always could try doin' it this way


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## Curbside Prophet

DogGoneGood said:


> However, before I tried it on him, I tried it on my own, thin bony, no fur, arm. It didn't hurt at all. It was extremely uncomfortable, but it didn't actually PINCH. It was just really annoying and uncomfortable. And a dogs neck is the toughest part on their body!


This isn't a very good argument to remove the emotional one. A dog naturally acts to disguise pain for his survival. You, not so much. Also consider a dog's senses are much greater than ours; why not also their sense of pain? Put the two together, hiding pain and a heightened sense of pain, how does comparing what you feel equate to what a dog may feel? 

You can remove the emotional argument simply by quantifying that your punishments and proving their effectiveness. Your punishment is effective when the punishment reduces the unwanted behavior over time. If you give your dog ten leash 'correction's on one walk for heel, and ten leash 'corrections' on another walk a week from now, your punishment is not effective. An ineffective physical punishment is tantamount to abuse.

You may need to manage your physically stronger dog by using more frequent, perhaps even ineffective punishments, but management is not training.


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## DogGoneGood

Okay, I'm sorry but I don't really understand your reply...

If my dog disguises pain for survival (which I'm agree with you on this one), and *I* don't, wouldn't what *I* feel with the prong collar on my obviously less protected arm, and my reaction to it, outweigh my dog's reaction? If I feel nothing but discomfort, isn't it safe to say that my dog does too? Even IF his pain senses are heighted (which you or I have no proof of), you still have to add into the equation that I felt NOTHING but discomfort, and I have NO thick hide, fur etc. to protect my arm. In fact I have the boniest arms possible... now, I'm not the best at math, but I would think that, even with a dogs "heightened pain sense", the fact they have thick fur and hide (especially my Coal) would most likely make the effect equal to be around the same as what my completely unprotected and "less heighted pain sense" on my arm feels... and let me add; I'm a complete wuss when it comes to pain! I actually have less of a pain tollerence than most people and my wiring is a little screwed so that normal wear and tear on my joints that most people don't feel even more than a little discomfort, turns into aggonizing pain for me.

I never said I correct my dog 10 times on a walk one day, and then go a week without any and then 10 on another... this argument makes absolutely no sense. A correction is given for a bad behavior when it occurs. It would be impossible for anyone to correct (or reward) the exact same amount of times every single day, as corrections nad rewards are based on the dogs behavior. Bad behavior=correction, good behavior=reward. Dogs are smart enough to understand this, and most catch on quickly. Dogs (or any living animal for that matter, including humans) will do whatever bennifits THEM. They learn what behaviors give them a reward that is bennificial to them, and what behaviors lead to an unwanted reaction which they will avoid.

It's not even like I use a leash correction for EVERY little thing. They always get a "warning" and verbal correction first. If the dog isn't heeling it's "No... Heel" and then if they do not respond to that it's "No *correction" Heel..." once they heel it's "Good boy" and some scratches behind the ear or whatever physical praise they enjoy. 

I would never do anything to hurt my dogs. I used a shock collar on Linkin once as a last result, and quickly threw it into a box in my closet because his reaction told me all I needed to know; this training tool was abusive and unnecessary when I'm SURE there's another method out there more affective to teach him offleash work when i have an unfenced yard... the method I've found is an extremely slow go, especialy for Linkin who will listen like gold for five minutes but the second he sees an opportunity to go chase kids on their bikes he's gone (he was abused by kids on bikes when he was with his previous owner).

I'm not looking for a quick fix, I'm looking for what works for MY dogs. If everything else has failed after months of trying, and the prong collar works the best, I think it's safe to say it is the tool for MY dogs.

The degree of correction also depends on individual dog. Coal is more sensitive than Linkin and if I used the same degree of correction and praise as I do with Linkin he'd be cowering in the corner! He's a very soft dog, and even for HIM all other 'Purely Positive' methods of heel training did not work. If I used the same amount of encouragement and praise for Linkin as i do with Coal he'd be bouncing off the frigging walls and not learning a single thing. With Linkin I have to remain 'calm and assertive' (not to quote any specific dog trainers I may or may not agree with), or he doesn't get ANYTHING out of training. As he's growing older and maturing I change my methods to fit him, as he IS calming down the more he matures.

I'm just saying... why write it off completely? Why not even CONSIDER the idea that it may be right for some dogs (when used properly as it should, and according to that dog's personality), and it may be absolutely terrible for others. I'm willing to admit training methods I don't find incredibly useful to be useful for SOME dogs. I'm not willing to write off ANY training method unless it's the type where you have to BEAT your dog to get him to listen, which is just oldschool crap in my opinion.


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## Curbside Prophet

DGG said:


> If my dog disguises pain for survival (which I'm agree with you on this one), and *I* don't, wouldn't what *I* feel with the prong collar on my obviously less protected arm, and my reaction to it, outweigh my dog's reaction? If I feel nothing but discomfort, isn't it safe to say that my dog does too?


 If you don’t feel pain, it’s not punishing to you. This also says nothing about what it is to the dog. The dog determines what is and is not punishing. So you can’t even begin to make an argument in this case. Now if you feel discomfort, and you agree dogs hide pain, the only argument you can make is your dog is sensing some level of pain; but at what level? Why do we want to cause our dogs discomfort when we’re asking them to do something completely unnatural (walking in a straight line in heel)? We don’t. 



> Even IF his pain senses are heighted (which you or I have no proof of), you still have to add into the equation that I felt NOTHING but discomfort, and I have NO thick hide, fur etc. to protect my arm.


 It doesn’t matter what you felt, I’m not teaching you how to walk on heel with leash corrections. The only way I can prove the leash corrections are effective is to count them, not test the tool on my arm and say _ahhh that’s good enough!_ What you’re suggesting is that our dog would have the same emotional reaction to a painting by Picasso. Do they? The only correct answer is, I don’t know! So to, to what a dog may feel from a physical punishment. 



> In fact I have the boniest arms possible... now, I'm not the best at math, but I would think that, even with a dogs "heightened pain sense", the fact they have thick fur and hide (especially my Coal) would most likely make the effect equal to be around the same as what my completely unprotected and "less heighted pain sense" on my arm feels... and let me add; I'm a complete wuss when it comes to pain! I actually have less of a pain tollerence than most people and my wiring is a little screwed so that normal wear and tear on my joints that most people don't feel even more than a little discomfort, turns into aggonizing pain for me.


 But you’re still not a dog, and this still isn’t a very good justification for the use of physical punishment. You must prove the punishment is effective. There’s no need to compare apples to oranges if you count your punishment over time. 



> I never said I correct my dog 10 times on a walk one day, and then go a week without any and then 10 on another... this argument makes absolutely no sense.


 I never said you did either. In fact, I didn’t discuss your training methods. I was giving you an example of what an ineffective punishment was. Do you know what the definition of punishment is? I’m not talking about the dictionary definition. I’m talking about the definition commonly used and known from learning theory. A punishment is a consequence that follows an operant response (something the dog does) that decreases (or attempts to decrease) the likelihood of that response occurring in the future. Notice this definition does not define what that consequence is…it doesn’t matter. If the punishment does not decrease the response from occurring in the future, what is it, if it’s not at the very least annoying? I trust that you don’t want to annoy your dog during training, correct? 



> A correction is given for a bad behavior when it occurs. It would be impossible for anyone to correct (or reward) the exact same amount of times every single day, as corrections nad rewards are based on the dogs behavior.


 I’m not sure what you’re saying here, but it’s very easy to count the number of punishments you give, and record those numbers over a period of time. If the ratio of punishments over time does not decrease, does this not demonstrate the effectiveness of your punishment? If it isn’t working, why would we want to continue doing it? Isn’t that the definition of insanity? BTW, I’m NOT calling you insane. I would presume you haven’t counted your punishments over time. 



> Dogs (or any living animal for that matter, including humans) will do whatever bennifits THEM. They learn what behaviors give them a reward that is bennificial to them, and what behaviors lead to an unwanted reaction which they will avoid.


 This is not always true. Some dogs also learn to shut down. This is called learned helplessness. This behavior does not benefit them, yet dogs that are under stress do exactly this. Why? Because behavior does not only occur in the realm of the operant (behaviors you can observe). Behavior does always occur classically, however (what the dog associates with the behavior). If the dog associates heeling with an annoying consequence, your consequence will exacerbate the problem - more than teach your dog to not pull. Yet another reason to quantify punishments. 



> I would never do anything to hurt my dogs. I used a shock collar on Linkin once as a last result, and quickly threw it into a box in my closet because his reaction told me all I needed to know; this training tool was abusive and unnecessary when I'm SURE there's another method out there more affective to teach him offleash work when i have an unfenced yard... the method I've found is an extremely slow go, especialy for Linkin who will listen like gold for five minutes but the second he sees an opportunity to go chase kids on their bikes he's gone (he was abused by kids on bikes when he was with his previous owner).


 I have not suggested you would hurt Linkin. I am explaining to you what I would constitute as abuse. You wondered, so I’m answering with my opinion. I went on to explain how to remove the emotional argument…count your punishments and prove they reduce over time. If your punishments do reduce over time, what argument can I make about whether your punishment is abusive? Not a very good one. 

Now consider what you just stated… A tool is just a tool, you make this same argument, so I’m not sure why a prong collar is acceptable to you where a shock collar is abusive. For some dogs, a shock collar saved their life, is this abuse? 



> If everything else has failed after months of trying, and the prong collar works the best, I think it's safe to say it is the tool for MY dogs.


 I’m not sure what you’ve tried, but hypothetically speaking, if all else failed, and the prong collar proved to be effective, yes, that is the tool for your dog. But most dog owners don’t start from the least aversive method and work their way down, as evidence by the supposed trainer named in this thread. 




> The degree of correction also depends on individual dog. Coal is more sensitive than Linkin and if I used the same degree of correction and praise as I do with Linkin he'd be cowering in the corner! He's a very soft dog, and even for HIM all other 'Purely Positive' methods of heel training did not work.


 There’s no such thing as “purely positive”. Every behavior has a consequence (negative or positive), whether you’re conscious of it or not. So I would question the reinforcer. I would question your mechanical skill. I would question your environmental control. Reinforcement always gets behavior, there’s no exception to that. Punishment does not get behavior. Refer back to the definition – punishment attempts to decrease a response, not get a response. You can’t punish a dog to heel. You can withhold punishment while the dog is heeling, but this is a reinforcement. 



> If I used the same amount of encouragement and praise for Linkin as i do with Coal he'd be bouncing off the frigging walls and not learning a single thing. With Linkin I have to remain 'calm and assertive' (not to quote any specific dog trainers I may or may not agree with), or he doesn't get ANYTHING out of training. As he's growing older and maturing I change my methods to fit him, as he IS calming down the more he matures.


 It is amazing how you can control behavior by manipulating the antecedent (being calm), and by manipulating the consequence (level of reinforcement). This is all explained with learning theory. 



> I'm just saying... why write it off completely? Why not even CONSIDER the idea that it may be right for some dogs (when used properly as it should, and according to that dog's personality), and it may be absolutely terrible for others. I'm willing to admit training methods I don't find incredibly useful to be useful for SOME dogs. I'm not willing to write off ANY training method unless it's the type where you have to BEAT your dog to get him to listen, which is just oldschool crap in my opinion.


 Do you find qualifying and quantifying punishment as writing them off? I mentioned earlier that the definition of punishment does not define what the consequence is. To me this means it CAN BE anything I want it to be. However, I don’t dump out my tool bag and grab the first tool I find. Have you tried to nail in an uncut 2x4 with a level? It doesn’t work that way. The Dogfather would suggest it does. No! I lay my tools out in orderly manner. I start by measuring where the 2x4 will go, I mark the cut line with a pencil, I use square to scribe the line, etc, etc.


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## DogGoneGood

I don't know if it's the massive headache I've had all day, or what, but debating with you is making me exhausted...

I don't think we're even arguing about the same thing anymore...

My argument was that prong collars are NOT abusive when used correctly. Not whether or not they actually work. I'm NOT arguing that it works with every dog, and I'm not arguing that it doesn't work with every dog.

Your ramblings about the decreased amount of corrections, is what I'm really not understanding.
I didn't say I'm giving the same amount of corrections as I did in the begining... no, I don't count them, but I DO recognize when I gave more corrections in the begining compared to the few I need to give now. Doesn't that mean there was a learned response?

I'm NOT correcting my dog FOR HEELING. I'm correcting him for NOT heeling, AFTER he has been taught the meaning of heeling and has a general understanding of it (only heels properly for cookies is a good indication they understand but are only willing to work for cookies; which to me; is NOT acceptable).

I can't possibly explain my point any clearer than I've already tried...

Yes, I DO see a place for shock collars by the way... but used on my dog under the circumstances it was used on him, it WAS an abusive tool.

I don't offer Blow Joe to go out and buy himself a prong collar unless I see other methods have failed (WITH the work they take). I don't think they should be used as an end to all kind of tool, they should be used where other methods have failed on individual dogs.

And that's that... I tried but I dont' think I can argue this subject anymore... I'm going around in circles making myself dizzy in the process


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## blunder

There are 4 phases to operant conditioning, and this is something that is constantly misquoted, misunderstood and most defiantly misused.
To begin with the word positive means add to, and the word negative means remove from, and has nothing what so ever to do with good or bad, mean or kind or any thing else. Why anyone would subscribe to only using one forth of the system totally escapes me. If a person is going to use operant conditioning to train an animal, which I subscribe to, then all four phases of operant conditioning are tools that should be used. The art of training is knowing which is appropriate and when. When you DO NOT give the dog the cookie that is NEGATIVE PUNISHMENT so why on earth call it positive reinforcement.

Oh, and the two dogs in the pic above are:
CH Copper Rose Nothing But Net and Raindancers Chasin A Dream MH (master hunter)
Course' I don't know anything about training a dog.

As for that "dreaded" E-collar, if a person understands that it is nothing more than a one mile long lead, and is used exactly like any other lead, then there is nothing more abusive about it than there is with any other lead. An abusive trainer can jerk a dog around just as much with a flat buckle collar if that is what they wish to do.


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## Curbside Prophet

DogGoneGood said:


> I don't know if it's the massive headache I've had all day, or what, but debating with you is making me exhausted...


Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know you had a headache. None of this is meant to be taxing...just entertainment. 



> My argument was that prong collars are NOT abusive when used correctly. Not whether or not they actually work.


And my argument is that the tool is NOT used correctly if they do not work. And used incorrectly we have to wonder if we're abusing the dog. I do because that's what I consider humane. 



> I didn't say I'm giving the same amount of corrections as I did in the begining... no, I don't count them, but I DO recognize when I gave more corrections in the begining compared to the few I need to give now. Doesn't that mean there was a learned response?


It depends on what your criteria is. Like food lures, I want to phase the tool out. I want the behavior to be the reward. If I can't phase the tool out, there's something wrong with my training. The necessity for leash correction long after training in a behavior, I would say is a good indication that no learning is occurring, the behavior is stagnant, it's not meeting your criteria. I don't know anyone who wants to physically punish their dog...at least no one I care to associate with. 



> I'm NOT correcting my dog FOR HEELING. I'm correcting him for NOT heeling, AFTER he has been taught the meaning of heeling and has a general understanding of it (only heels properly for cookies is a good indication they understand but are only willing to work for cookies; which to me; is NOT acceptable).


If the dog still needs food reinforcers for a behavior, he has not learned the behavior. He's only learned that you dole our reinforcers. You have to Premack the behavior. The Premack principle is a phase of learning where the dog is traded a behavior for his preferred one. Have you exchanged food lures for life rewards? Do you even know what your dog's life rewards are? Sniffing trees? Sniffing other dog's butts? Laying on the couch?



> I'm going around in circles making myself dizzy in the process


I'm so sorry, I don't share the dizziness. I actually find these conversations reinforcing. I hope you feel better in spite of all this.


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## wvasko

DogGoneGood said:


> I don't know if it's the massive headache I've had all day, or what, but debating with you is making me exhausted...
> 
> I don't think we're even arguing about the same thing anymore...
> 
> My argument was that prong collars are NOT abusive when used correctly. Not whether or not they actually work. I'm NOT arguing that it works with every dog, and I'm not arguing that it doesn't work with every dog.
> 
> Your ramblings about the decreased amount of corrections, is what I'm really not understanding.
> I didn't say I'm giving the same amount of corrections as I did in the begining... no, I don't count them, but I DO recognize when I gave more corrections in the begining compared to the few I need to give now. Doesn't that mean there was a learned response?
> 
> I'm NOT correcting my dog FOR HEELING. I'm correcting him for NOT heeling, AFTER he has been taught the meaning of heeling and has a general understanding of it (only heels properly for cookies is a good indication they understand but are only willing to work for cookies; which to me; is NOT acceptable).
> 
> I can't possibly explain my point any clearer than I've already tried...
> 
> Yes, I DO see a place for shock collars by the way... but used on my dog under the circumstances it was used on him, it WAS an abusive tool.
> 
> I don't offer Blow Joe to go out and buy himself a prong collar unless I see other methods have failed (WITH the work they take). I don't think they should be used as an end to all kind of tool, they should be used where other methods have failed on individual dogs.
> 
> And that's that... I tried but I dont' think I can argue this subject anymore... I'm going around in circles making myself dizzy in the process


DogGoneGood

*I don't know if it's the massive headache I've had all day, or what, but debating with you is making me exhausted...*

Been there done that, usually when CP gets done with me I've forgotten what the debate was about in the 1st place. Since I'm mentally challenged I really am between a rock and a hard place whenever he jumps up and down on me. I have to read his replies 4 or 5 times and then it hits me, Oh! that's what he meant.
After all is said and done on forum posts, you are the one training your dog and viewing the action/reaction of your training techniques. Or just the act of being able to walk your dog comfortably and save the wear and tear on your arm is an
exercise between you and the dog. One of the things I have read on forum is that if you must use a prong collar it should only be for a short time and then move on to a flat buckle collar. In the world I live in through the years I know of seniors, slender ladies and slightly built men who for whatever reason have large dogs and trouble walking them. A lot of these dog owners have used the prong collar on the dogs until they died and started their new dogs on them. In a perfect world they would train their dog and graduate to a flat buckle collar but many people are not going to do that. Now take some aspirin and relax, you fought the good fight with CP.


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## DogGoneGood

wvasko said:


> DogGoneGood
> 
> *I don't know if it's the massive headache I've had all day, or what, but debating with you is making me exhausted...*
> 
> Been there done that, usually when CP gets done with me I've forgotten what the debate was about in the 1st place. Since I'm mentally challenged I really am between a rock and a hard place whenever he jumps up and down on me. I have to read his replies 4 or 5 times and then it hits me, Oh! that's what he meant.


Oh thank god I'm not the only one... I was begining to think my IQ had lowered or something because I couldn't understand what CP was talking about half the time...

CP, it's no offence to you, honestly  I think we're just on such completely different plains of thought here that I have no idea what you're talking about half the time...

I think ANY tool can be abused really... There's ALWAYS going to be idiots out there abusing them...

I duno, I think my dogs are living proof my methods work well... they're happy, well adjusted dogs (for the most part, there are a few problems here and there but none that popped up BECAUSE of my training ), and Linkin moreso is the amazing proof. If you could have seen him before I got him you wouldn't believe he's the same dog. Also, the fact that when I get the prong collar off the hook they both wiggle all over with such excitment I think is living proof that the collar isn't painful to them... they get more excited about the prong collar than just the leash!

My headache is finally gone... I think it may have came about from trying to update and organize my Rescue organizations by breed list on the forum that I Admin on... it's been an ongoing task that's soon to drive me mad...

Anyway... continue to your regular programing!


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## Criosphynx

haha that was fun to watch.....


I gave up on the "jerk and Puke" about a year ago....After learning about how dogs learn.

and i made alot more progress that way.


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## wvasko

DogGone

*I think ANY tool can be abused really... There's ALWAYS going to be idiots out there abusing them...*

 I've got it, I believe we got CP on brain abuse. When he's done with me I'm usually heading for the aspirin Naaaa, that's not going to fly in my case you got to find it to abuse it.


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## klip

"jerk" is a noun - ha ha ha! Not very kind.

I must say, I'm suspicious when anyone says:"the dog will work for you because the love/like to please/respect you and not for bribery with food".

That is a complete misunderstanding about how treats or toys, or any other reward, are used in training.

It is _possible_ to use treats as bribes - and so have no- or unpredictable success with them, but if you are doing it right, you are using the reward to reinforce a correct behaviour. Its a way of getting round the fact that we cannot talk dog.


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## Curbside Prophet

DogGoneGood said:


> Also, the fact that when I get the prong collar off the hook they both wiggle all over with such excitment I think is living proof that the collar isn't painful to them... they get more excited about the prong collar than just the leash!


This too is not proof the collar is effective. What the dog prefers, is what the collar predicts...a walk. This is an example of classical conditioning, no different than how a dog can be classically conditioned to a click. Your dog gets excited about the walk; the collar just happens to be the antecedent for a walk. There's no way on Earth you can argue a dog gets excited by pain...that's what these collars are meant to do, deliver pain as a punisher. So no, you shouldn't interpret it that way.



wvasko said:


> I've got it, I believe we got CP on brain abuse.


But you still love me so that's all that matters.


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## blunder

Curbside Prophet said:


> This too is not proof the collar is effective. What the dog prefers, is what the collar predicts...a walk. This is an example of classical conditioning, no different than how a dog can be classically conditioned to a click. Your dog gets excited about the walk; the collar just happens to be the antecedent for a walk. There's no way on Earth you can argue a dog gets excited by pain...that's what these collars are meant to do, deliver pain as a punisher. So no, you shouldn't interpret it that way.


True, but not true.
Yes the walk is the motivator that the dog is responding to. But, the collar only has the ability to inflict pain if that is the desire of the trainer. Without input from the trainer the collar is an inert object without the ability to do anything.
There is no form of collar made that can not be used abusively if that is the intent of the trainer.
The concept of the collar in question is the ability to make a proper correction with less input from the trainer than would be required from other types of collars, NOT to make a harsher correction.
Half of the time my dogs will be carrying their lead in their mouth instead of me having hold of it, so how could the collar inflict any sort of pain regardless of what type it is? It's also quite common for me to have a dog on a "dreaded" choke chain (German snake actually), but the reason for this isn't to inflict any sort of pain. I train the dog to respond to the noise the collar makes when I tap the leash with my index finger.

Tough Guy


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## Curbside Prophet

blunder said:


> True, but not true.


No it must be true, otherwise, the collar is not being used as a punisher. If it's just sitting on the dog's neck, it's only a necklace. You can sugarcoat the 'correction' (correction is a euphemism for punishment) any way you like, the correction is still meant to be punishing; the punishment from a prong collar is pain or the association to pain, you can not deny this. These are the facts and any other way of defining it is unnecessary, and misleading. 



> But, the collar only has the ability to inflict pain if that is the desire of the trainer.


And this should be the trainers desire if the collar is part of training. I always ask, if we're using a punisher and its not punishing, why are we using it? I say this about all punishments, not just physical ones. But I can understand if you have a large dog and you need the tool for management and safety, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about how to use the tool in training, not management.



> Without input from the trainer the collar is an inert object without the ability to do anything.


Of course, but what's the point? No dog can be trained not to pull by just wearing the collar. Considering all the work Skinner did you should also know the physical punishment MUST BE severe, and immediate to be punishing. Otherwise, we are needlessly jerking on the dog, and IMO needless jerking a dog *is* abuse. And since it MUST BE severe, the prudent trainer MUST quantify them. Where exactly is the hole in this logic? 



> The concept of the collar in question is the ability to make a proper correction with less input from the trainer than would be required from other types of collars, NOT to make a harsher correction.


Incorrect. The collar in of itself does not improve one's mechanical skill. It does however, enhance the punishment with less effort, this is true. But this says nothing about what is or is not punishing. Refer to the definition of punishment. Remember, it says nothing about 'harsh', or 'less input', or what is abuse. 



> Half of the time my dogs will be carrying their lead in their mouth instead of me having hold of it, so how could the collar inflict any sort of pain regardless of what type it is?


The question you're asking is...if my collar isn't used for punishment, how can it be punishing? Isn't this a silly question? I'm speaking to how the collar is punishing (with pain), and how we can avoid using it abusively. If we're judging our dog's reaction to the tool, this is not proof the collar is being used effectively. It's only proof that the dog enjoys going for a walk. I don't need my dog to wear a prong collar as a necklace to enjoy a walk.



blunder said:


> but the reason for this isn't to inflict any sort of pain. I train the dog to respond to the noise the collar makes when I tap the leash with my index finger


And what is that noise associated with? If it's not pain, you aren't using it to punish behavior. This is a different argument.


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## wvasko

Curbside Prophet said:


> This too is not proof the collar is effective. What the dog prefers, is what the collar predicts...a walk. This is an example of classical conditioning, no different than how a dog can be classically conditioned to a click. Your dog gets excited about the walk; the collar just happens to be the antecedent for a walk. There's no way on Earth you can argue a dog gets excited by pain...that's what these collars are meant to do, deliver pain as a punisher. So no, you shouldn't interpret it that way.
> 
> 
> 
> But you still love me so that's all that matters.


CP
*But you still love me so that's all that matters. *

Love ya and need your input to keep us on the straight and narrow. All sides of dog training have to be discussed. I'm sure not going to knock somebody because of a humane attitude towards dogs. How stupid would that be. Trust me, I dislike dog abuse also and many years ago ran a few owners out of class because they thought if one correction was good, 10 would be better. If a light correction was good a hard correction was much better. I did decide to stop classes because of owner stupidity. Understand also a hard correction for the right dog is sometimes needed, but you try other methods first. As I have stated before you do not use an elephant gun to shoot a flea.


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## blunder

> And what is that noise associated with? If it's not pain, you aren't using it to punish behavior. This is a different argument.


The only correction the dogs have ever had from a choke chain is the directional jingling caused by the index finger against the side of the lead. By the time they are put on a choke they already know that it is their responsibility to ether maintain a loose lead or a tight lead depending on what the dog is being trained for. (we train our show dogs to gate on a tight lead)
Need to know tho' I am a firm believer in using both positive and negative punishment in my training programs, just as I also use positive and negative reinforcement.
Most notably, punishment (as properly defined in operant conditioning) is used to artificially create stress or distraction and has nothing what so ever to do with the dog doing something right or wrong.


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## Curbside Prophet

blunder said:


> The only correction the dogs have ever had from a choke chain is the directional jingling caused by the index finger against the side of the lead.


So are you using this noise to cue attention? If so, this is not a punishment, it's a cue - an antecedent to a desired behavior - not a consequence. 



> Need to know tho' I am a firm believer in using both positive and negative punishment in my training programs, just as I also use positive and negative reinforcement.


And I'm a firm believer punishments need not be physical, otherwise I too use all four corners of the quadrant - as they are defined in OC. 



> Most notably, punishment (as properly defined in operant conditioning) is used to artificially create stress or distraction and has nothing what so ever to do with the dog doing something right or wrong.


This is not how punishment is defined in OC. The definition says nothing about causing stress or distraction; punishments need not be any of these, they only need to be effective. The definition only says a punisher *is* punishing if a behavior is weakened by the consequence. It does not define what that consequence is. 

Furthermore, if your criteria (what *is* right or wrong) does not define what that right or wrong behavior is, you are indiscriminately punishing or reinforcing your dog's response. Avoiding the punishment can't be learned if you use your punishment indiscriminately. 

I don't believe this to be true, however, if you're simply cuing attention with a noise. For this noise to have any punishing value it must be classically conditioned to an aversion. With a choke chain this aversion *is* pain; you said you don't use this collar other than to make a noise. 

'Corrections' are not defined in OC, so I try not to use this term. It's too confusing and can lead us to talking about two different learning processes as illustrated here.


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## blunder

Curbside Prophet said:


> So are you using this noise to cue attention? If so, this is not a punishment, it's a cue - an antecedent to a desired behavior - not a consequence.
> 
> 
> And I'm a firm believer punishments need not be physical, otherwise I too use all four corners of the quadrant - as they are defined in OC.
> 
> 
> This is not how punishment is defined in OC. The definition says nothing about causing stress or distraction; punishments need not be any of these, they only need to be effective. The definition only says a punisher *is* punishing if a behavior is weakened by the consequence. It does not define what that consequence is.
> 
> Furthermore, if your criteria (what *is* right or wrong) does not define what that right or wrong behavior is, you are indiscriminately punishing or reinforcing your dog's response. Avoiding the punishment can't be learned if you use your punishment indiscriminately.
> 
> I don't believe this to be true, however, if you're simply cuing attention with a noise. For this noise to have any punishing value it must be classically conditioned to an aversion. With a choke chain this aversion *is* pain; you said you don't use this collar other than to make a noise.
> 
> 'Corrections' are not defined in OC, so I try not to use this term.  It's too confusing and can lead us to talking about two different learning processes as illustrated here.


Exactly, rattling the chain is nothing more than using a clicker (marker) that has 4 side inorder to tell the dog which direction to go.

On page 2 of this article (teaching swim-by) you will find a good example of using positive punishment to create stress/distraction. We call it FTP (force to pile)
http://www.retrieversonline.com/swimby.htm


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## Curbside Prophet

blunder said:


> Exactly, rattling the chain is nothing more than using a clicker (marker) that has 4 side inorder to tell the dog which direction to go.


No, this is not accurate. When you use a clicker, the click occurs when the behavior is performed. You do not use the click to cue a behavior. You can, but that would ruin the value of the click. The click is classically conditioned to the reinforcer. In most cases this reinforcer is food. So rattling the chain is not a marker, it's a cue. 'Sit' is a cue, 'down' is a cue, 'out' is a cue, etc. 



> On page 2 of this article (teaching swim-by) you will find a good example of using positive punishment to create stress/distraction. We call it FTP (force to pile)
> http://www.retrieversonline.com/swimby.htm


What was described in the article is not positive punishment...it's negative reinforcement. If the e-collar were used as positive punishment, you would cue 'back', and nick the dog at a high level, one time, when the dog drove away. What the article described is a lower level nick, set continuously and removed (negative) once the desired behavior is performed. This reinforces the behavior of 'back'. You are not punishing 'away'.


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## blunder

Curbside Prophet said:


> No, this is not accurate. When you use a clicker, the click occurs when the behavior is performed. You do not use the click to cue a behavior. You can, but that would ruin the value of the click. The click is classically conditioned to the reinforcer. In most cases this reinforcer is food. So rattling the chain is not a marker, it's a cue. 'Sit' is a cue, 'down' is a cue, 'out' is a cue, etc.
> 
> What was described in the article is not positive punishment...it's negative reinforcement. If the e-collar were used as positive punishment, you would cue 'back', and nick the dog at a high level, one time, when the dog drove away. What the article described is a lower level nick, set continuously and removed (negative) once the desired behavior is performed. This reinforces the behavior of 'back'. You are not punishing 'away'.



NO-NO-NO
better read it again. You nick the dog either with the collar set on momentary or with a short duration nick with a collar that has continuous l,m,h (the difference between a Pro-100 and a Pro-200 or a collar that only has cont.) and the nick is applied AFTER the dog is in motion, not before. Sometimes well after the dog is in motion (already in the water) 
The level of the nick has no bearing what so ever on it being positive or negative anything, it is only the fact that you did or did not nick and when the nick is applied.
What you described is what we do when "proofing" a basic command (recall for instance) with negative reinforcement.
In the article you are not TAKING AWAY (negative) anything with a nick, you are ADDING (positive) something
It is when you send and don't nick that it could be classified as negative reinforcement, even tho' it really isn't.

BTW, what is "sit-nick-sit"? and what is "nick-sit-nick"?


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## Curbside Prophet

This is a quote from the article...


> This step involves the use of the e-collar to *reinforce* the ‘back’ command both on land and in the water. Start the session by marking the pile and giving 2-3 freebies. Put your dog in a remote sit front finish position 10-20' from the water’s edge. Command ‘back’and just after the dog has  turned, nick and then repeat the command ‘back’. * Use momentary mode or a very quick nick on the continuous mode.*




A definition of negative reinforcement from here.



> In an attempt to increase the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the *removal of an aversive stimulus*. This is negative reinforcement.


The operant response is back and the aversive stimulus in this case is a continuous nick. It should be at a lower level so as not to be a positive punishment. The author went out of his way to warn against this and appropriately calls it a reinforcer in his quote.

Let me help you explain the difference. There is a simple equation to use that helps in understanding learning theory. This equation is Antecedent (A) + Behavior (B) = Consequence (C). Also know as the ABC's of learning. What is an antecedent? Anything that occurs before or during a behavior. What is a behavior? What the dog physically does. What is a consequence? A reward or punishment for a behavior.

In the forced retrieve example, your antecedent is both the cue 'back', and the continuous nick. The behavior is the dog retrieving the bumper back to you, and the consequence is the continuous nick is ceased once the behavior is fully performed. This is distinguishable from a positive punishment because the negative aversion occurs while the behavior is being performed, not after.

What about an example of positive punishment? Say your dog likes to chase rattle snakes. You don't want your dog to chase rattle snakes. So, what would an antecedent be for your dog to chase rattle snakes? A rattle snake. The behavior is your dog chasing one, and now the consequence in this case would be a high level nick. This nick occurs after the behavior begins. Why a high level? You want the dog to associate rattle snakes with severe pain, and you want him and the behavior to cease immediately (no need for a continuous nick, one jolt should be enough). On the other hand, you do not want your dog to associate 'back' with severe pain, thus you set the e-collar to a lower level. The author said to do just that.


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## blunder

Curbside Prophet said:


> This is a quote from the article...
> 
> 
> A definition of negative reinforcement from here.
> 
> The operant response is back and the aversive stimulus in this case is a continuous nick. It should be at a lower level so as not to be a positive punishment. The author went out of his way to warn against this and appropriately calls it a reinforcer in his quote.


NO-No You are still miss reading it. You first send the dog AND THEN nick it AFTER it is in motion, AFTER the nick you then repeat the verbal command. You DO NOT hold the button down making a continuous correction. You get your finger back off the button giving the dog as short a duration NICK as is possible if all you have is a cont. only collar. His only reference to continues is for collars that do not have a momentary setting (nick).

For it to be negative reinforcement you would give the command DURING continuous (longer duration) stimulation.


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## Curbside Prophet

I am not misreading it. You are not using the terms of learning theory correctly. How can you deny that the author said the e-collar is used to reinforce back? If it is used as a punisher, what behavior are you trying to punish? Remember, reinforcement gets behavior. Punishment decreases behavior, so what behavior are you attempting to decrease? Certainly not back, that's what you're trying to train.


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## blunder

Curbside Prophet said:


> I am not misreading it. You are not using the terms of learning theory correctly. How can you deny that the author said the e-collar is used to reinforce back? If it is used as a punisher, what behavior are you trying to punish? Remember, reinforcement gets behavior. Punishment decreases behavior, so what behavior are you attempting to decrease? Certainly not back, that's what you're trying to train.


"Remember, reinforcement gets behavior. Punishment decreases behavior,"

That is absolutlly not true.

OK,, let me use a different approach with you.

It is STILL using a correction for no other reason than to create stress/distraction, and is totally independent of obeying or disobeying the command! (my original statement), and!! creating anything is STILL ADDING SOMETHING TO (positive).
In the old days before the e-collar the same thing was accomplished by giving the dog a swat on the butt with a riding crop after it was in motion (for those that think the e-collar is some kind of monster)


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## DogGoneGood

*Raises hand* Question!...





> And I'm a firm believer punishments need not be physical, otherwise I too use all four corners of the quadrant - as they are defined in *OC.*


What is "OC"? Last I checked it was both "Orange County" and an apparently hit TV show


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## pamperedpups

OC = Operant Conditioning


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## Curbside Prophet

blunder said:


> "Remember, reinforcement gets behavior. Punishment decreases behavior,"
> 
> That is absolutlly not true.


This will be the last attempt I'll make to try and help you understand the terms of learning theory. I don't know what more I need to do than define the terms for you again. These terms are not questionable, and you can't make up your own definitions as they suit you. Either we both use a common language (I'm suggesting those as they are defined in academia), or we will continue to not understand what each other is saying. If you didn't read the link I provided earlier, here it is again: http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/reinforcement.html (for reinforcement) and this one http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/punishment.html (for punishment).

I'll now quote reinforcement and punishment from these links, and you tell me how this is any different than my reinforcement gets behavior, punishment decreases behavior statement, and why these definitions are not usable.



> Reinforcement is defined as a consequence that follows an operant response that *increase *[gets] (or attempts to increase) the likelihood of that response occurring in the future.





> Punishment is defined as a consequence that follows an operant response that *decreases* (or attempts to decrease) the likelihood of that response occurring in the future.


Now prove to me you are a reasonable person and not just arguing to be 'right'. At the risk of sounding pampas...I'm already convinced of what I know, I don't need your confirmation that I'm right. If you don't see that I'm trying to be helpful, our conversation need not go any further.


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## wvasko

Curbside Prophet said:


> This will be the last attempt I'll make to try and help you understand the terms of learning theory. I don't know what more I need to do than define the terms for you again. These terms are not questionable, and you can't make up your own definitions as they suit you. Either we both use a common language (I'm suggesting those as they are defined in academia), or we will continue to not understand what each other is saying. If you didn't read the link I provided earlier, here it is again: http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/reinforcement.html (for reinforcement) and this one http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/punishment.html (for punishment).
> 
> I'll now quote reinforcement and punishment from these links, and you tell me how this is any different than my reinforcement gets behavior, punishment decreases behavior statement, and why these definitions are not usable.
> 
> 
> Now prove to me you are a reasonable person and not just arguing to be 'right'. At the risk of sounding pampas...I'm already convinced of what I know, I don't need your confirmation that I'm right. If you don't see that I'm trying to be helpful, our conversation need not go any further.


CP
Way to go, even I understood the Reinforcement/Punishment. Now I'm getting scared some of you is rubbing off one me and I'm getting smarter.


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## blunder

Curbside Prophet said:


> This will be the last attempt I'll make to try and help you understand the terms of learning theory. I don't know what more I need to do than define the terms for you again. These terms are not questionable, and you can't make up your own definitions as they suit you. Either we both use a common language (I'm suggesting those as they are defined in academia), or we will continue to not understand what each other is saying. If you didn't read the link I provided earlier, here it is again: http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/reinforcement.html (for reinforcement) and this one http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/punishment.html (for punishment).
> 
> I'll now quote reinforcement and punishment from these links, and you tell me how this is any different than my reinforcement gets behavior, punishment decreases behavior statement, and why these definitions are not usable.
> 
> 
> Now prove to me you are a reasonable person and not just arguing to be 'right'. At the risk of sounding pampas...I'm already convinced of what I know, I don't need your confirmation that I'm right. If you don't see that I'm trying to be helpful, our conversation need not go any further.


Also my last post on the matter.
Lets just agree to dissagree.


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## Curbside Prophet

blunder said:


> Lets just agree to dissagree.


I still love you too blunder.


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## French Ring

It appears like I'm too late to join the debate; however, I tend to start with marker training first. I prefer to start with something very positive because dogs don't know what I want and why should they get harsh corrections for something they don't understand at first? Marker training/click training is a good way to teach them something new and positive. I have a reward that they want like food, praise, or toy. 

If my dogs chose to ignore the given command, (yes) there will be corrections. I only give corrections when a dog chose not to listen to me and know the command. (More likely if he is being stubborn and ignoring my commands then there will be corrections) I have seen owners giving out harsh corrections to dogs who don't understand the commands and thought their dogs know or understand it.


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