# Please help, aggression in 9 week old puppy, not normal play biting



## Beebly (Sep 7, 2013)

I just recently got an 8 week old Red Heeler/Lab mix puppy. She is very cute and we love her to death, but there have been a few problems. She is showing signs of aggression. And not play biting or just not having bite inhibition, like actual aggression. She does well with listening when we tell her gentle during play bite and stopping when we yelp if she bites too hard. I work at a doggy day care and so I know what an aggressive dog looks like. She's not food aggressive or toy aggressive or aggressive towards other dogs or our kitten, but she gets aggressive when we need to disturb her while she's sleeping or if we need to separate her and our kitten because they like to play too rough. We don't disturb her for no reason, either, we usually need to move her or in some cases give her medication, etc. And she doesn't get aggressive every time this happens, it's only sometimes.

She throws tantrums where she'll just growl a lot and so we'll hold her still (we read that the best thing to do is to hold them still) until she calms down then we'll release her. But that's not the biggest problem. If I try to lightly grab her from under our futon she will literally start snarling, growling and lunging at me to bite me. I can hardly get her from under and it's almost impossible for me to hold her down until she's calm without the risk of getting bit really hard. I'm struggling with this a lot because I don't know how to show her that this is NOT okay and that I am the leader without making her scared of me. When I was trying to hold her still she eventually ran and I went to calm her down and she was scared and her heart was beating really fast, but that's the first time it happened so it could not have instigated the first reaction. I don't want to build a relationship with her based on fear, I want it to be based on love and trust. But I also do NOT want her to think that she is in charge and that she can walk all over us.

I would like to try ALL other options before turning to a trainer, so please don't suggest that as my first resort.

Thanks guys! Here's a picture of her.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

A 9 week old puppy is not aggressive, trust me. You have a puppy that is a mix of two very well known "biters" labs... and heelers. They bite, and bite, and snarl, and growl, and bite some more, you name it. Just because she's noisy and active with the biting, doesn't mean she's being aggressive, she's being a puppy. I also work at a daycare, and I have scars from one of the lab puppies who come regularly. He's drawn blood, and he bites HARD, but he's not being aggressive.


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## Beebly (Sep 7, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> A 9 week old puppy is not aggressive, trust me. You have a puppy that is a mix of two very well known "biters" labs... and heelers. They bite, and bite, and snarl, and growl, and bite some more, you name it. Just because she's noisy and active with the biting, doesn't mean she's being aggressive, she's being a puppy. I also work at a daycare, and I have scars from one of the lab puppies who come regularly. He's drawn blood, and he bites HARD, but he's not being aggressive.


I have worked with plenty of "biters." I promise you that this is an aggressive bite, not a play, it's "in my nature" bite. She has those too, quite frequently, and she will bite hard, and we just tell her gentle, and she is doing quite well with learning that she needs to be gentle when biting people while she plays. I am aware she is teething and all of that, but this is entirely different than the normal puppy teething/mouthing/biting and is completely aside from her normal puppy behavior. I have had puppies before and this is far more extreme than any I have experienced previously. This is why I made sure to say that it is not normal puppy stuff, I'm well accustomed to normal puppy stuff, it's aggression. I didn't want people responding telling me she's just being a puppy, because I've tried to research on my own and I keep coming across people mistaking puppy teething and biting as aggression but my problem isn't with her just being a puppy and mouthing and such. I'm not mistaking normal puppy behavior as aggression, her normal puppy teething is an entirely separate thing from this. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm just blabbering. >.<


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

I concur, probably not true aggression. Many dogs just don't like being moved around physically, my lab is one of them. Not a big deal, I just trained him very young to move where I point. I used food as a lure at first, then just as a reward. A hungry lab pup will do most anything for an extra piece of kibble. He learned this really FAST. The command is simply, 'This Way' accompanied by a point. He learned very fast and we were able to expand it to include going into or out of his crate, on and off the furniture, to his mat out of the way, etc. This way we move him around without ever having to touch him. Today is he a sweet, loving, 5 year old cupcake who is dearly loved.

It wasn't a matter of right or wrong, winning or losing, just finding a way to work together that makes both human and dog happy and comfortable.

Your girl is a cute little stinker! She looks like mischief in the making.


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## Beebly (Sep 7, 2013)

Kudzu said:


> I concur, probably not true aggression. Many dogs just don't like being moved around physically, my lab is one of them. Not a big deal, I just trained him very young to move where I point. I used food as a lure at first, then just as a reward. A hungry lab pup will do most anything for an extra piece of kibble. The command is simply, 'This Way' accompanied by a point. He learned very fast and we were able to expand it to include going into or out of his crate, on and off the furniture, to his mat out of the way, etc. This way we move him around without ever having to touch him. Today is he a sweet, loving, 5 year old cupcake who is dearly loved.
> 
> Your girl is a cute little stinker! She looks like mischief in the making.


I'm going to try teaching her that command. She is very smart! She learned to sit in one day and is working on learning to shake  And she is quite the stubborn one! Has quite the attitude! Mischief in the making, no doubt! But we love her.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

Beebly said:


> I have worked with plenty of "biters." I promise you that this is an aggressive bite, not a play, it's "in my nature" bite. She has those too, quite frequently, and she will bite hard, and we just tell her gentle, and she is doing quite well with learning that she needs to be gentle when biting people while she plays. I am aware she is teething and all of that, but this is entirely different than the normal puppy teething/mouthing/biting and is completely aside from her normal puppy behavior. I have had puppies before and this is far more extreme than any I have experienced previously. This is why I made sure to say that it is not normal puppy stuff, I'm well accustomed to normal puppy stuff, it's aggression. I didn't want people responding telling me she's just being a puppy, because I've tried to research on my own and I keep coming across people mistaking puppy teething and biting as aggression but my problem isn't with her just being a puppy and mouthing and such. I'm not mistaking normal puppy behavior as aggression, her normal puppy teething is an entirely separate thing from this. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm just blabbering. >.<


When I say 'not true aggression', I don't mean that exactly. It doesn't sound like she's aggressive as in, she's looking for a fight. More like she gets pissed when you grab at her and responds like a puppy who hasn't quite gotten control of her emotions or her jaws yet. 

The training I described turned my grumpy lab pup into a very willing trainee who happily moved from place to place for me because of the food. It took all the confrontation out of the equation. We didn't use food forever, just during the training phase. But the impression it made on him was permanent. To this day, he moves around with just a point with a big happy lab smile.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

It is awesome how fast and easily they learn at that age, isn't it?  Enjoy her!


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## Beebly (Sep 7, 2013)

Kudzu said:


> When I say 'not true aggression', I don't mean that exactly. It doesn't sound like she's aggressive as in, she's looking for a fight. More like she gets pissed when you grab at her and responds like a puppy who hasn't quite gotten control of her emotions or her jaws yet.


Now that makes sense. Yeah, I don't think she's looking for a fight at all, and it's not outward aggression either. But I'm going to try what you do and see if that works, I think that it may really help. She comes for the most part when I say, "Kahri, Come." But sometimes gets very stubborn and stares at me and that's when I'll go to reach for her. She's a punk, but a very cute one at that.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Listen, she's 9 weeks old. She is a BABY. She is a mix of two breeds that are infamous for biting and gnawing. Heelers are a herding breed and are worse for it. They also tend to be pretty finicky dogs.

Holding her down will make it worse. You will either cause her to think you're engaging in her game, which will make her bite harder, or you will scare her into ACTUALLY biting you, to defend herself. This can lead to her being handshy and not liking to be touched, which may be what's happening anyway.

Also, you are not a "pack master." Dogs do not work on a system of dominance with humans. Fact. Don't try to assert yourself as an alpha, because you're not one. You're a human, she is a dog. 

When she bites you, offer her a toy instead. If she persists, walk away. If she comes after you, put her in her crate for a minute so she can chill out.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Listen, she's 9 weeks old. She is a BABY. She is a mix of two breeds that are infamous for biting and gnawing. Heelers are a herding breed and are worse for it. They also tend to be pretty finicky dogs.
> 
> Holding her down will make it worse. You will either cause her to think you're engaging in her game, which will make her bite harder, or you will scare her into ACTUALLY biting you, to defend herself. This can lead to her being handshy and not liking to be touched, which may be what's happening anyway.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly agree. I used to watch the Dog Whisperer and marvel at how he handled dogs. But when I got my own dogs, that dominance/alpha/pack leader thing never felt right or natural to me. I do believe they need leadership to live among humans, but benevolent, fair, unselfish leadership... certainly not a tyrant who pins them to the floor in an attempt to display their status.


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## Beebly (Sep 7, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Listen, she's 9 weeks old. She is a BABY. She is a mix of two breeds that are infamous for biting and gnawing. Heelers are a herding breed and are worse for it. They also tend to be pretty finicky dogs.
> 
> Holding her down will make it worse. You will either cause her to think you're engaging in her game, which will make her bite harder, or you will scare her into ACTUALLY biting you, to defend herself. This can lead to her being handshy and not liking to be touched, which may be what's happening anyway.
> 
> ...


 I think that's what may have happened this last time, is I scared her, (unintentionally, of course). I have just read a lot that you're supposed to hold them down when I was researching it to assert your authority. Obviously, it has backfired. Please be understanding, as this is the first I have had to deal with this and I myself am learning on how to work through it. I'm not trying to be an abusive dog owner or trying to be a "tyrant," as Kudzu put it, I'm simply trying to learn.

Pack master is the only way I know how to word what it is I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to say that I'm an alpha, I just want her to know that she needs to listen. And yes, I understand she's a puppy and is still learning, which is why I'm coming for advice.

The biting she's doing at this point isn't the type of situation where I can just hand her a toy. I hand her toys when she bites me like normal puppies and tell her gentle or if she's chewing on stuff she's not. This is a purely, "Leave me alone" bite where she is warning me to back off. She's not coming to me to bite, she's trying to bite because she wants me to back off. They're two very different things.

Also, I don't want to put her in her crate when she's biting because I don't want her to absorb her crate as a punishment. Mainly because she's not crate trained completely yet and so it needs to remain a positive environment.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

If she stops and just stares at you, it's probably because she doesn't quite understand 'come' just yet. Instead of reaching for her, try patting the floor playfully with a smile and get a little silly. Make her want to come to you because you're so darned fun and awesome!


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

Sorry, I wasn't trying to call you a tyrant. I was actually thinking of Cesar Milan. I truly believe he is well intentioned, I just don't agree with some of his viewpoints.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Also, you are not a "pack master." Dogs do not work on a system of dominance with humans. Fact. Don't try to assert yourself as an alpha, because you're not one. You're a human, she is a dog.


I have to disagree to a certain extent. No dont assert yourself as alpha, but have SOME order. Instead of telling her "no" (the dog) say "do this instead". That way youre not putting yourself as "pack master" but you also still have some "order" i guess you could say. 



Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Order has nothing to do with dominance though... Not sure I get your point.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Beebly said:


> We don't disturb her for no reason, either, we usually need to move her or in some cases give her medication, etc.


You haven't said what meds she's on or for what purpose, but maybe that has something to do with it. Coupled with a well-intentioned yet wrong approach to training.

If you feel that these issues are beyond the scope of internet advice, I wouldn't further delay seeking advice from a professional trainer, in-person. Before the hole gets any deeper.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Doglover65 said:


> I have to disagree to a certain extent. No dont assert yourself as alpha, but have SOME order. Instead of telling her "no" (the dog) say "do this instead". That way youre not putting yourself as "pack master" but you also still have some "order" i guess you could say.


Yeah, I think you missed the big thread about the connotations that the words 'dominance', 'alpha' and 'pack' have.

Like I've said a hundred times before, it is fine and dandy to be a benevolent leader to your dog, to guide them and love them and set boundaries, but pinning your dog down isn't being a benevolent leader.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

What a fun game for a lab/heeler mix: "Hide under the futon and see if the human can get me out."  She is a baby. She is not trying to be disrespectful, she is a baby with no self control who just reacts instinctively in each moment and needs to be taught how to act more appropriately.

Here's what I would do with this puppy:
"Puppy Zen/It's Yer Choice" is a great game for teaching self-control especially with mouthy puppies. You can easily find it on YouTube.

I teach a similar command to Kudzu but I call it "go." If you search "go to mat" on YouTube you can find a lot of tutorials on teaching it. 

I would keep a drag line or light long leash on her all the time, so you don't have to pick her up to move her or get her out from under the futon. Between that and luring, you shouldn't have to grab her really ever. 

There is an excellent book called "Control Unleashed" that I believe was originally written as a guide for people who were having trouble at agility classes/trials with their reactive dogs. However, it's an excellent read for any dog owner especially one with self control issues. There are a lot of great exercises in it. The author has also written a book called "Control Unleashed, The Puppy Program" which I haven't read myself but I've heard great things about, I suspect it's more geared towards laying foundations than addressing behavior that already exists. In any case, the bottom line is that I love CU. 

Read up on shaping and free shaping. It's training you can do at home without having to take a class. It makes dogs engage their brains and can both drain off and channel some of that flailing puppy energy and can really teach a puppy how to stop and think about things instead of just reacting in a moment. Although I don't agree with everything in the book generally, "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion has a good nuts and bolts description of shaping as a technique.

Stop holding her down. That's not teaching her anything other than that you are scary and somewhat unpredictable.


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I would keep a drag line or light long leash on her all the time, so you don't have to pick her up to move her or get her out from under the futon. Between that and luring, you shouldn't have to grab her really ever.


Great point. I totally had forgotten that this is what I did (sort of) in the meantime before training took full affect. If I needed to move him off the couch when he was sleepy and a treat wasn't handy, I would pick up his leash and move towards him. Once clipped on, he was totally cooperative. Most of the time I didn't even need to clip it on his collar, just the sight of it got him to stand up and move off the furniture. He just had a lot of respect for the leash, don't really know why, except that we walked him frequently.


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## Beebly (Sep 7, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> You haven't said what meds she's on or for what purpose, but maybe that has something to do with it.


She's just on her deworming meds that the shelter was giving her. Metro and Albon I believe they're called.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If it's metronidazole - it tastes awful. Like, worst horrible awful bitter. So that may be one reason she resists getting medicated particularly.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

9 week old puppies aren't yet capable of aggression. They are, however, playful, and they start out only knowing how to play with their mouths. With the mix of breeds you have here, it's just going to take lots of time and patience to get through this mouthiness, but it's perfectly normal puppy behavior that can be worked through.


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## Sstarkel (Mar 30, 2021)

Beebly said:


> I just recently got an 8 week old Red Heeler/Lab mix puppy. She is very cute and we love her to death, but there have been a few problems. She is showing signs of aggression. And not play biting or just not having bite inhibition, like actual aggression. She does well with listening when we tell her gentle during play bite and stopping when we yelp if she bites too hard. I work at a doggy day care and so I know what an aggressive dog looks like. She's not food aggressive or toy aggressive or aggressive towards other dogs or our kitten, but she gets aggressive when we need to disturb her while she's sleeping or if we need to separate her and our kitten because they like to play too rough. We don't disturb her for no reason, either, we usually need to move her or in some cases give her medication, etc. And she doesn't get aggressive every time this happens, it's only sometimes.
> 
> She throws tantrums where she'll just growl a lot and so we'll hold her still (we read that the best thing to do is to hold them still) until she calms down then we'll release her. But that's not the biggest problem. If I try to lightly grab her from under our futon she will literally start snarling, growling and lunging at me to bite me. I can hardly get her from under and it's almost impossible for me to hold her down until she's calm without the risk of getting bit really hard. I'm struggling with this a lot because I don't know how to show her that this is NOT okay and that I am the leader without making her scared of me. When I was trying to hold her still she eventually ran and I went to calm her down and she was scared and her heart was beating really fast, but that's the first time it happened so it could not have instigated the first reaction. I don't want to build a relationship with her based on fear, I want it to be based on love and trust. But I also do NOT want her to think that she is in charge and that she can walk all over us.
> 
> ...


Hi I know this is super old. What did you ever do about this? My dog is the exact same way and he is only 9 weeks old. He’s a mini schnauzer and my vet told me this is very unusual for a puppy this young. He gets super mad and aggressive growling like how a grown dog does when they are mad. She told me I need to go to behavioral classes immediately. Anyway he’s really good other than this one thing. He comes pretty good and sits so far. 

I know he plays hard with another puppy so I don’t know if that is where it stems from. He only is super aggressive when I pick him up (or anyone picks him up) or move him and usually it’s only when he’s really tired. I do know it gets way worse when he’s scared.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Unfortunately the original poster hasn't been around since 2013, so you're unlikely to get a response here. I'm closing this thread to further replies to avoid confusion, but I urge you to start your own thread about the issues you're having with your pup! That way our currently active members are more likely to see it and be able to offer advice.


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