# Nosework vs. ScH Tracking? Similarities and Differences?



## packetsmom

I wanted to pick the brains of the nosework people here and get some help understanding what the similarities and differences are between AKC Nosework and ScH Tracking. Ultimately...I might be interested in both. 

From what I understand of ScH tracking, they start the dogs out learning to follow a path through a field of brush that has been disturbed previous to the dog arriving there. They begin training puppies or young dogs by putting treats every few steps so that the dog learns to keep their nose down and to look for signs of brush being disturbed. For the most part, they learn to look for a disturbed path rather than possibly searching for an object or person.

Then, they increase the spacing between rewards and try to make the path less obvious, but the dog is still graded on how well they follow the disturbed path versus finding something. Eventually, in the highest levels, they work up to the dog finding 3 objects along a disturbed path and alerting the handler to those objects. The objects are wood, leather, and carpet/fabric and the dog has to either sit with the object between their paws, not mouthing it or touching it, or, more commonly, lay down with the object between their paws. The dog must then wait until the handler comes to retrieve and inspect the object. I'm not sure if the dog has to choose the correct object from several or if they have to choose a specific scent from others.

So...based on my limited knowledge of each...it seems like they have very different goals in mind? From what I know of nosework, the goal is for the dog to be able to discern a certain scent that is desired and then find objects marked with that scent vs. objects marked with a different scent whereas tracking seems focused on the dog following a specific path by looking for signs that someone has walked that way recently and then find objects dropped along that path?

Curiousity...


----------



## Keechak

I could be definitely be wrong but I don't think Nosework is an AKC sport? AKC has a Tracking sport which is very similar but not as strict as Sch. Tracking. AKC tracking is more like Search and Rescue "Trailing" while Sch. Tracking is more like Search and Rescue "Tracking"


----------



## packetsmom

Keechak said:


> I could be definitely be wrong but I don't think Nosework is an AKC sport? AKC has a Tracking sport which is very similar but not as strict as Sch. Tracking. AKC tracking is more like Search and Rescue "Trailing" while Sch. Tracking is more like Search and Rescue "Tracking"


I could definitely be wrong about nosework being AKC.  I'm still learning a lot about dog sports and I often have the different groups mixed up as to what they offer.


----------



## juliemule

Well I don't compete in either but... I do real world tracking and real nosework. 

So the difference is is one is tracking and one is air scenting. 

Tracks consist of several sources. One is disturbed vegetation. This is the least accurate since anything (a rabbit, deer) can cause this. Next is break down of bacteria on disturbed vegetation. Then and most accurate is human odor. Dogs can use scent discrimination here. Using one person's scent and tracking over cross tracks and other disturbances. This is also critical in pavement tracking and urban settings, as well as 24 hour old tracks, high heat, and full sunlight. Articles that contain scent of the track layer is easily distinguished, if taught scent discrimination.

Then there is trailing. This is a combo basically of tracking and air scenting. Very handy with lost people, but articles can be misses as the dog follows rifts so you may be a way off of the track depending on weather and wind. Criminal fst is more appropriate for LE looking for dropped weapons, wallets, drugs, etc.

Airscent, like cadaver, nosework, etc, uses large negative areas rather than a continuous positive. I'd say hunt has to be even higher here as there is no reinforcement until the dog arrives in odor. The dog quarters an area, using air currents for a familiar scent. When found he works a scent cone to narrow down the source, or as close to possible (buried or underwater) and gives an alert when there. 

Some dogs can do both. Some are natural trackers and some use air flow more readily, but both can be taught to some degree.


----------



## packetsmom

Thank you, Julie...I think I'm starting to better understand the differences...and this is fascinating stuff.

To me, uneducated as I am when it comes to any of this, I didn't stop to think that a dog tracking someone over a trail would be an almost completely different skill than, say a dog searching a car for drugs, but now that you describe the differences, it makes perfect sense. I guess I really never stopped to consider how amazing it is that dogs can do so many different things with scent and even in environments where there are so many people and smells. 

We have one dog and handler in the ScH club that don't trial where the dog is a working cadaver dog, which I find interesting. I'm hoping to get a chance at some point to talk to her about how the training with the club helps with her work or if it does at all.

I'm not sure if Sam will be good at or enjoy any of these, but I do know he really loves being out in the woods and sniffing everything. He also loves searching our backyard for treats we hide, so I'm hoping he might enjoy tracking as well.


----------



## Laurelin

AKC does not have nosework but I've heard rumor that AKC and UKC are both considering it? Right now the only option is NASCW (I think that's right) and trials aren't everywhere. We have no trials around here really which is a bummer because Mia is very much ready for the ORT/NW1.

ETA: Even if you can't compete, nosework/detection training is a great way to give your dogs something to do. Mine absolutely love it.


----------



## juliemule

It really is simple once you get it. What helped me a lot were smoke bombs (for air scenting) and dye for the cadaver dogs on water. It let's us see what the dog smells. When you understand what odor does, its much easier.

Everything plays a part, temperature, wind, heat, Sun, humidity, barometric pressure, age of source, depth and soil type if buried, etc. Odor is odor however, and it doesn't matter if its human remains, narcotics, birch cancer cells, or human skin cells on a track almost any dog can differentiate. The catch is us teaching them correctly.


----------



## juliemule

Laurelin said:


> AKC does not have nosework but I've heard rumor that AKC and UKC are both considering it? Right now the only option is NASCW (I think that's right) and trials aren't everywhere. We have no trials around here really which is a bummer because Mia is very much ready for the ORT/NW1.


 I've heard the same, but nothing official. We lack anything dog related where I'm at.


----------



## packetsmom

Laurelin said:


> AKC does not have nosework but I've heard rumor that AKC and UKC are both considering it? Right now the only option is NASCW (I think that's right) and trials aren't everywhere. We have no trials around here really which is a bummer because Mia is very much ready for the ORT/NW1.
> 
> ETA: Even if you can't compete, nosework/detection training is a great way to give your dogs something to do. Mine absolutely love it.


Thank you for the info! I'm guessing that we must have NASCW trials since there are so many local classes in nosework and it was suggested as an alternative if Sam couldn't do ScH.  I looked up NASCW's website https://www.nacsw.net/ and it looks like we at least have certified trainers in the area. Hopefully a trial close by will open up for Miz soon!


----------



## Laurelin

We're just now finally getting some stuff around here. Even agility, up until this year it was all AKC (and some minor TDAA/UKC). I know two people really involved in nosework and trying to drum it up around here. I hope it takes off some. I keep telling the agility folk to try it out but none of them want their dogs to sniff while they're running agility. My dogs have zero issue knowing when it's time to play agility vs when it's time to get to sniffing.


----------



## packetsmom

juliemule said:


> It really is simple once you get it. What helped me a lot were smoke bombs (for air scenting) and dye for the cadaver dogs on water. It let's us see what the dog smells. When you understand what odor does, its much easier.
> 
> Everything plays a part, temperature, wind, heat, Sun, humidity, barometric pressure, age of source, depth and soil type if buried, etc. Odor is odor however, and it doesn't matter if its human remains, narcotics, birch cancer cells, or human skin cells on a track almost any dog can differentiate. The catch is us teaching them correctly.


I'm interested in how a dog learns which scent it is that we want them to find, out of all the scents. With the chicken hearts, it's pretty easy. He wants to find the chicken heart I hide so that he can eat it. He knows what they smell like because he's had them before and he knows I've hid them in the backyard because I've done it before. Now, I understand how I can then, just like associating a treat with a marker word or click, associate a certain smell with a treat, but I'm interested in seeing where we go from that point. It sounds like the tracking we'll be learning in ScH, though, is less about a particular scent and finding that scent than it is about noticing a path that has recently been made and following it, which is also interesting in its own way.


----------



## packetsmom

Laurelin said:


> We're just now finally getting some stuff around here. Even agility, up until this year it was all AKC (and some minor TDAA/UKC). I know two people really involved in nosework and trying to drum it up around here. I hope it takes off some. I keep telling the agility folk to try it out but none of them want their dogs to sniff while they're running agility. My dogs have zero issue knowing when it's time to play agility vs when it's time to get to sniffing.


Dogs that pull when mushing or skijorring know only to pull when they have that harness on. I would guess that agility dogs would be smart enough to figure out that the agility ring is not the right place to start sniffing around.


----------



## Laurelin

packetsmom said:


> I'm interested in how a dog learns which scent it is that we want them to find, out of all the scents. With the chicken hearts, it's pretty easy. He wants to find the chicken heart I hide so that he can eat it. He knows what they smell like because he's had them before and he knows I've hid them in the backyard because I've done it before. Now, I understand how I can then, just like associating a treat with a marker word or click, associate a certain smell with a treat, but I'm interested in seeing where we go from that point. It sounds like the tracking we'll be learning in ScH, though, is less about a particular scent and finding that scent than it is about noticing a path that has recently been made and following it, which is also interesting in its own way.


I know julie does it differently than we do but we go something like this (trainers vary in how long they stay at one stage)

- food in box. Dog finds box with food.
- food in room/outdoors/vehicles/etc
- food AND odor in box. 
- odor in box

Then I work on getting the dog to stick to the odor and get them alerting.

My first trainer moved the dogs off food pretty fast but my second one pairs longer. I am not sure why. Summer is currently struggling with non-paired hides. It's taking her longer to understand the game.


----------



## Laurelin

packetsmom said:


> Dogs that pull when mushing or skijorring know only to pull when they have that harness on. I would guess that agility dogs would be smart enough to figure out that the agility ring is not the right place to start sniffing around.


It did get a bit dicey when on Tuesday we were doing nosework in the building then Weds we were rained out and had agility in the building too. The very first exercise we did, mia went on the hunt but she very quickly realized we were playing agility. Also, we did nosework hunts in the barn then about 3 days later did agility in the barn. Summer remembered that there had been cookies in the pink bucket and kept going to go look in the bucket. Other than those specific times, it's not been a problem.


----------



## juliemule

packetsmom said:


> I'm interested in how a dog learns which scent it is that we want them to find, out of all the scents. With the chicken hearts, it's pretty easy. He wants to find the chicken heart I hide so that he can eat it. He knows what they smell like because he's had them before and he knows I've hid them in the backyard because I've done it before. Now, I understand how I can then, just like associating a treat with a marker word or click, associate a certain smell with a treat, but I'm interested in seeing where we go from that point. It sounds like the tracking we'll be learning in ScH, though, is less about a particular scent and finding that scent than it is about noticing a path that has recently been made and following it, which is also interesting in its own way.


We just start with whatever you want the dog to find. Say, cadaver, so we take bone or tissue place in a cone or box or bucket (anything they cany access it) as soon as the dog notices it we reward. 
We change up the containers almost every training. As soon as he recognizes odor, we add an alert. Mainly its a passive alert now due to liability. Since he isn't allowed to self reward, we never have to eliminate thay issue, makes training faster. You can use scented towels or balls to improve hunt, for the slower dogs, but this takes longer as you have to proof them off it later.
Once you have the alert, we build time at source and aggression to odor. When they are solid, they have no issue with high hides, water, buried, etc
I use a bsd fairly often so they reward appears to come from source. I also let them self proof off of food and toys.


----------



## juliemule

Also I give a command to begin searching. We do this everywhere possible so they learn to only search when told. We also practice agility so they differentiate. I have a different command to track as I do cadaver, and the dogs wear a harness for tracking vs a collar or nothing for hrd.


----------



## Laurelin

We give a command to start searching too. Both incidences I talked about were EARLY in training in areas we'd only done nosework and no agility until the day we did agility. My dogs know the difference now and know their command.

Julie what do you mean by build aggression at the odor?

I think part of the difference between nosework and real odor work as far as nosework using food so much at first is that nosework is for all dogs, even very low drive ones. In my classes most dogs were shelter specials or a lot of older dogs. So many certainly weren't bred to work like this. Oddly enough Mia and then a Belgian were two real naturals I saw. (Not that the other dogs weren't good but Mia and the belgian seemed to be way more into it right away). I think Mia would have done fine on straight odor but she's a dog that has always hunted for long periods of time. As a pup she would search for a toy for hours. She also is a natural sniffer and has always been.

Summer is more typical for what I see. She's kinda scatterbrained, didn't quite pick up the game for a few weeks, and I think really needed the food weeks to build her drive to find things. She is not a dog that naturally uses her nose much and she's far from a problem solver (she's fantastic in agility though and a joy to teach tricks to). So she needed some extra push to actually look for well.... anything at all.

I think there's also the fact that nosework itself is pretty new and they're really trying to standardize it/streamline it as a one size fits all, which I don't think it is. In the short time I've been in it, I believe the official stance on food(paired) vs no food has changed as far as recommendations go.

I don't do everything the way that is being taught. For one many nosework folk don't actively teach an alert but try to learn to read their dog instead, saying that all dogs will have 'tells'. I taught an active alert with Mia and am beginning one with Summer.


----------



## juliemule

Laurelin said:


> We give a command to start searching too. Both incidences I talked about were EARLY in training in areas we'd only done nosework and no agility until the day we did agility. My dogs know the difference now and know their command.
> 
> Julie what do you mean by build aggression at the odor?
> 
> I think part of the difference between nosework and real odor work as far as nosework using food so much at first is that nosework is for all dogs, even very low drive ones. In my classes most dogs were shelter specials or a lot of older dogs. So many certainly weren't bred to work like this. Oddly enough Mia and then a Belgian were two real naturals I saw. (Not that the other dogs weren't good but Mia and the belgian seemed to be way more into it right away). I think Mia would have done fine on straight odor but she's a dog that has always hunted for long periods of time. As a pup she would search for a toy for hours. She also is a natural sniffer and has always been.
> 
> Summer is more typical for what I see. She's kinda scatterbrained, didn't quite pick up the game for a few weeks, and I think really needed the food weeks to build her drive to find things. She is not a dog that naturally uses her nose much and she's far from a problem solver (she's fantastic in agility though and a joy to teach tricks to). So she needed some extra push to actually look for well.... anything at all.
> 
> I think there's also the fact that nosework itself is pretty new and they're really trying to standardize it/streamline it as a one size fits all, which I don't think it is. In the short time I've been in it, I believe the official stance on food(paired) vs no food has changed as far as recommendations go.
> 
> I don't do everything the way that is being taught. For one many nosework folk don't actively teach an alert but try to learn to read their dog instead, saying that all dogs will have 'tells'. I taught an active alert with Mia and am beginning one with Summer.


Aggression to odor is the dog actively wanting to get to the source, jumping, climbing, digging, going crazy basically, and not being distracted by anything. 
You are exactly right in the differences of nosework classes ans detection. The dogs that don't naturally have the crazy hunt and prey are the ones who don't pan out to work. While fine for classes, you can't risk a life or court case on the dog.. that's whwhy we put so much emphasis on selection of certain drives and nerve. As you noticed, some dogs have it, and some really struggle. 

The crazy drive dogs are the ones that will work for hours in high stress environments. Pure chaos, noise, extreme heat or cold, heavy equipment, emergency vehicles, unstable surfaces, etc. Ans they enjoy it, live for it!

The others it takes time to build, and fun for a bit, but would rather do whatever. Every dog that eats basically can use its nose, and it can he a great way to bond ans have fun with your dogs. Then ones like Mia who really excel at it. She sounds like one you could skip the extras and go right on to scenting. Again you are correct, each dog is different so standard training leaves a lot out.

That point is difficult to get through to LE especially. They want a dog to do X by this training no matter what, so sometimes good dogs get washed out of the program when just changing a few steps is all they need. But here they are tools, so easy to replace rather than work with whay you have.


----------



## Laurelin

I wonder if I built aggression at the odor without really knowing what I was doing. When I went in to add in an alert for Mia, I did so by letting her find the odor and then waiting. She would get frustrated by me not rewarding her fast enough. As a result now she will scratch at the odor and will stick with the odor even after I reward her. The only way she leaves the odor is by me physically removing the odor source.

This is another spot where Summer differs because if I wait and don't reward Summer the second she is on the odor, she checks out and just moves on. 

Julie, your posts are very very interesting to read! It's very cool to hear about the real work you all do and compare it to our training. I can definitely see why you do things the way you do and why you would wash dogs without that natural drive. 

I do think that doing odor work at the game level is something yu can do with almost any dog. Even if the dog is not a natural. Setting up searches for Mia though is a lot of fun because she loves climbing all over everything and really having to work to find the odor source.


----------



## elrohwen

This is a fun thread! I really like reading about the different in training for working dogs vs sports that mimic working conditions.

I don't have experience with tracking/trailing, but I am in nosework classes right now. I agree with Laurelin that there are dogs of all different drives and abilities, which makes it fun. Any dog with a nose can do it, though not all at going to be naturals. Watson took to it extremely quickly and I wish we could have moved off of food and on to odor faster, but the whole class pretty much moves at the same speed. We spent the first 6 weeks with food only to really build drive and excitement for the search, though Watson didn't need it - he is always searching with his nose naturally. If they used a scent like chipmunk, rather than birch, he could have been on scent from the first week. lol We have a strange mix of breeds in our classes - some labs, some goldens, a cairn terrier, catahoula, chesapeake bay retriever, husky, and cocker spaniel. Out of those, Watson, the cocker, and the cairn are the naturals, which makes sense considering all are bred to hunt for game using air scenting. Even the lower drive dogs have a great time though and it's a fun activity to play at home when the weather is bad.

To sort of answer one of packetmom's questions, from what I understand, there is not much odor discrimination in nosework beyond knowing the three odors. By that I mean dogs are expected to search only for odor and ignore food at higher levels, but they are not required to only search for one specific odor. So if the dog is trained on birch, cloves, and anise, he can alert to any of those three during a search. You don't tell him to only search for cloves this time and only anise the next. Laurelin can correct me if I'm wrong there, but that's how our trainer explained it. 

Watson does have some issues with searching when it's not appropriate, but only if we are in the same place. We train at the same facility for nosework and obedience, and last obedience class there were rally signs all over and he decided to investigate every single one. I haven't had a problem with him sniffing in other environments, like conformation shows, though. I think as he generalizes the skill and it is more on cue, he will get better. Most of his problem is just being young and distractable.


----------



## Laurelin

I think the idea is that you're mimicking something like a 'drug dog' where the dog would alert to various different illegal substances vs just marijuana or something. I don't imagine a drug detection handler is telling the dog 'go find pot', have the dog seach then ok 'go find cocaine', but rather the dog is trained to alert to more than one drug. So if any illegal substance is present, the dog is to alert. I don't know,I have zero experience in it. The idea with nosework is that the anise, clove, and birch are the replacement drug odors the dogs are trained to alert on.


----------



## elrohwen

Right, that's how I understood it. They don't need to only search for one, they should be searching for all of them every time.


----------



## packetsmom

Julie - Could you explain what a bsd and hrd are? This is really interesting stuff.

So, from what I understand, nosework more closely translates to the "for fun" version of detection, like a drug or cadaver dog, while tracking more closely translates to the "for fun" version of search and rescue, at least on a very limited, small scale?

I'm trying to figure out what all gear I should bring for practice on Saturday. So far, given that he's a puppy, I'm planning on his regular harness, a few different lengths of leashes, his favorite tug and treats, LOTS of water, snacks and drinks for me, sunscreen, bug spray, and a hat.


----------



## DJEtzel

Laurelin said:


> AKC does not have nosework but I've heard rumor that AKC and UKC are both considering it? Right now the only option is NASCW (I think that's right) and trials aren't everywhere. We have no trials around here really which is a bummer because Mia is very much ready for the ORT/NW1.
> 
> ETA: Even if you can't compete, nosework/detection training is a great way to give your dogs something to do. Mine absolutely love it.


UKC premiered it at their "Premier" event this year! Should be offering it soon!



Laurelin said:


> I think the idea is that you're mimicking something like a 'drug dog' where the dog would alert to various different illegal substances vs just marijuana or something. I don't imagine a drug detection handler is telling the dog 'go find pot', have the dog seach then ok 'go find cocaine', but rather the dog is trained to alert to more than one drug. So if any illegal substance is present, the dog is to alert. I don't know,I have zero experience in it. The idea with nosework is that the anise, clove, and birch are the replacement drug odors the dogs are trained to alert on.


Yes. This is what my lawyer turned nosework instructor told us, and what I've gathered after contacting some local private detection companies to work with. You train them to alert to all these scents, and they just alert when they smell the strongest odor in the area they're allowed to search. So in trials they only have one to find obviously, so they alert to that scent because it's the most obvious. If there were more than one of the same intensities, it'd be nearly impossible to ask them to find one over the other, I believe.



packetsmom said:


> So, from what I understand, nosework more closely translates to the "for fun" version of detection, like a drug or cadaver dog, while tracking more closely translates to the "for fun" version of search and rescue, at least on a very limited, small scale?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out what all gear I should bring for practice on Saturday. So far, given that he's a puppy, I'm planning on his regular harness, a few different lengths of leashes, his favorite tug and treats, LOTS of water, snacks and drinks for me, sunscreen, bug spray, and a hat.


Yes, basically! Really, nosework isn't too small scale from detection work. It's the exact same process, just different scents. Dogs in our nosework classes have better accuracy rates than TSA dog's recent report statistics(which are really scary, honestly). I taught Frag after a few nosework classes to find Marijuana and his success is (was) great. 

Your items to bring list sounds great, btw!  Good luck! Nosework is a ton of fun and I really like it, hoping to join a local business soon with a dog or two that does private searches for schools, businesses, private homes, etc. so that they can decide whether to take criminal action or not. They are a growing business, and while YOU have to be certified, it's easy to train the dogs at home!


----------



## Laurelin

I think nosework is more like a drug search and less like a cadaver dog because I imagine cadaver dogs sometimes have to search over much larger places (like through the woods looking for a body).  Nosework is 4 basic components- container, interior, exterior, and vehicle searches. You first have to take an ORT (odor recognition test) where the dog shows that it can correctly identify the odor. We usually start container -> interior -> exterior -> vehicle. Vehicle can be a little challenging with dogs as short as mine, lol.

That's exciting that UKC is taking up nosework! How neat!



> Yes. This is what my lawyer turned nosework instructor told us, and what I've gathered after contacting some local private detection companies to work with. You train them to alert to all these scents, and they just alert when they smell the strongest odor in the area they're allowed to search. So in trials they only have one to find obviously, so they alert to that scent because it's the most obvious. If there were more than one of the same intensities, it'd be nearly impossible to ask them to find one over the other, I believe.


In this instance Mia would alert to whichever she found first then would likely 'stick' to that hide until I pulled her off it. Then she would start searching again after I gave her the command to search. We usually practice with 4-5 hides at a time in one area. The only issue is that she will go back and alert again (and again) if you don't remove the hides she's already found.


----------



## DJEtzel

Laurelin said:


> I think nosework is more like a drug search and less like a cadaver dog because I imagine cadaver dogs sometimes have to search over much larger places (like through the woods looking for a body). Nosework is 4 basic components- container, interior, exterior, and vehicle searches. You first have to take an ORT (odor recognition test) where the dog shows that it can correctly identify the odor. We usually start container -> interior -> exterior -> vehicle. Vehicle can be a little challenging with dogs as short as mine, lol.
> 
> That's exciting that UKC is taking up nosework! How neat!
> 
> 
> 
> In this instance Mia would alert to whichever she found first then would likely 'stick' to that hide until I pulled her off it. Then she would start searching again after I gave her the command to search. We usually practice with 4-5 hides at a time in one area. The only issue is that she will go back and alert again (and again) if you don't remove the hides she's already found.


I do agree that it nosework is more like drugs/detection than cadaver. Cadaver is more SAR. 

Mine too, Laurelin. I would imagine each idividual dog would alert to whichever scent (that they were trained on) they can smell most strongly or have the stongest association towards via rewards, then go down the line after. Frag will wait for my command to start searching once he's positively alerted once, but Recon will go on as soon as I retrieve the item. Both will go on once I tell them to even if the odor is still there, but sometimes they each will double back and alert again. I ignore and re-ask for a search and they'll start hitting new hides. If they go back to the same spot again or don't pick up a scent within about a minute to a minute and a half of the initial hide, I know there are no more hides in the area I'm searching and can call the room clean.


----------

