# Reactive Dog Success Thread



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

I'm currently dealing with some reactivity issues with my dog to people and to be honest sometimes it gets lonely and feels like an uphill struggle sometimes.

so I thought I could create a thread where we can all share our reactive dog success stories, whether it's a dog that is fully reliable around it's trigger now or even you walked past a dog without your dog lunging today! Anything goes as long as it's (mostly) positive just to egg us all on and show us some hope for our dogs to keep us going!

Feel free to add as little or as much info as you want, from how the reactivity was caused, what methods/toys/treats etc you found super useful. Useful links or guides.

My dog is reactive to people, it started with a child that spooked him while he was sleeping, he then reacted to her by growling and lunging at her but we made a ton of progress by her building a relationship with her by feeding him treats, actually interacting with him etc. 

He then went to the vets with an inner ear infection, vet touched and he immediately went for a warning snap and had to be muzzled so he could look and from then on he's been reactive to anyone who walks towards him he doesn't know. 

We then stupidly had a camping trip to the Lake District in the middle of summer and he had to come with, stupid me thought I could use this as a training opportunity with all the people there but as I found out when I finally got back and consulted a positive trainer, trigger stacking is a thing so that didn't go hugely well.

Now I've been to a positive trainer and got a load of resources/methods and a plan to move forward so hopefully we can get this sorted. He's 17 months and the trainer has high hopes he's just going through a fear period and will come out the other side fine because I was "switched on" to dog training as she put it. Hoping that's the case but for now we're working on building engagement with me so he can ignore triggers, doing some BAT, muzzle training and just avoiding any negative experiences with people, , so far so good.

I work at an indoor dog park on Sundays so hopefully one day he'll be all clear to come to work with me, that's always been one of my dreams!

Today we worked about 10 feet from some people and engagement and reaction were all neutral to positive so that's wicked.

Hope I can learn some cool tips or some science based stuff from this thread!


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## Fergusmom (Apr 12, 2015)

Hi thanks for starting this thread!

Barclay is reactive to other dogs. He will bark repetitively and lunge, and his eyes roll in his head- frankly he looks crazy and he has a headache-inducing bark. He probably has a reputation in our neighborhood, as some of my neighbors with dogs will turn around or walk in a different direction when they see us, lol. However, he is a small dog (17 pounds) so I know his reactivity is not comparable to reactivity in larger dogs.

Now the goods news- one of my neighbors approached me a while back and said "He's improving!" What I did was use "look at me" and treat. The key for me is to be able to see the other dog either before or at the same time as Barclay, and then quickly "look at me" and treat. That usually redirects him, because he is food motivated. If it is a dog that really sets him off-in my apartment one of his main enemies is a female pug- I continue to treat, and sometimes ask for a sit and treat.

This requires me always having treats in my pocket, and quick reflexess. If a dog catches us by surprise, all bets are off, and I have to either walk him quickly away or I will lift him up and turn around. 

Walking my two-year old terriers together can be a trial and embarrasing, but some things I just have to let go. I am also sure that things will continue to improve over time. Btw, I have had Barclay for 6 months.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly started with the reactivity between 5 and 6 months - it just grew out of a fear stage and a negative experience. Lunging, barking, growling, just sounding like cujo. We put her in her agility foundations class just before 8 months, anyway, though at first she had to stay behind a couple of barriers to block the site of other dogs. I have definitely left classes in tears. We repeated that class, and then took beginner and are now halfway through intermediate. She's now almost 16 months old and has been in group classes for half her life. 

She's better. Not perfect, for sure, and still a struggle, but better. Look at that didn't work for her, because she's prone to 'freezing' and fixating on things, anyway. She was already crazy obsessed with other dogs, LAT just made it worse. Look at ME was asking her to take her attention off something scary and do nothing, and she'd do it but it didn't really take her mind off what was going on. What actually worked was asking for her to look at me and then engaging her in play or training so that her brain was put on something else. 

A vest/harness that has patches with a stop sign and patches on the sides that say 'no touch, no talk, no eye-contact' helped, too, since she can kind of wig out at people here and there - especially when they're too forward or direct. It also tends to ensure people with other dogs keep some distance from her. 

We've come along way. I no longer have any fear of her going after anyone, or any dog. She WILL stay with me and work, even in very distracting environments. Her work is sometimes pretty crappy compared to home, but she won't leave me to start trouble. Even when that distracting environment is an agility field with a dog on the next course and a bunch of livestock around the edges and other people and dogs waiting in the wings. The more exposure she has, the better she is. 

My biggest issue at this point is probably just that she embarrasses the heck out of me, and fear of what's going to happen when we run out of classes to take with her. She's not ready to compete, really, but I'm not ready to let her stop being exposed to a bunch of other dogs being crazy because at this stage of the game it's HELPING keeping her threshold really, really high and frankly I don't want to lose that.

ETA: That said, as Patricia said, I'm big on protecting the dog. No one pets Molly. Dogs don't approach Molly. The key to her being comfortable and getting comfortable is that she knows she isn't going to have to interact with those things. that said, ain't no way I"m keeping her away from people, dogs and the public. All that does is turn the people, dogs, and the public into a bigger, scarier deal. At least if her behavior is anything to go by, and frankly even if I wanted to leave her home all the time, I couldn't. Dealing with other dogs, people and public spaces are unavoidable in most dog's lives. Besides, she'd find life at home and in isolated areas pretty... well, limiting and sad.

There's a line, basically, for me. You keep your dog safe, you build confidence, you keep the public safe, you prioritize the dog's comfort over good manners, but you don't just give up on the dog or enable fear and bad behavior, either.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Darien was abused to the point of torture and broken bones, him being HA was understandable and it didn't bother me. No sense in taking him places out into the world to learn to feel safe, if they were not places that he could feel safe. Last thing in the world for him would of been to keep torturing him about strangers / people... took some thought finding places to have fun and explore for the two of us to bond, that going a the right time for us was pretty much void of people and other dogs. That was the most successful start. The way to keep Darien safe in public situations was not changing his mind about people, it was about strong OB skills. strong team skills. That allowed us to maneuver in and through public situations when we needed to. He was a (Rules) dog... That is what gave him confidence.. Life has rules and everyone follows the rules ,, Mom, will step up and make them (people) follow the rules.. Always let Darien keep his voice, always let him put terror and fear into people who didn't play by the rules, kept our humor between us about rude humans,,( we had a grading scale of 1 - 10.. 10 being the scariest affect on people Darien could earn with his antics) it was just between us, it kept it light hearted working together, no stress or fustraction from me to him.. I had his back and he knew it... (never let other people make us feel embarrassed or if there was something wrong with Darien) Skating through real life with majority of humans following the rules, ( Darien does not ever have to interact with people) ( and people do not interact with Darien he is off limits) Darien learned tolerance in public situations and that tolerance really helped around stupid people who didn't want to follow the rules. Darien gave the time to redirect humans who slipped by or been more tricky to sneak up on us and go straight for him.. Main thing is that Darien learned to trust me and interact with me that I had his back always.. Darien was sharp in OB skills down to perfection , he enjoy'd being good at it. we could maneuver any situation in a very structure way and that was what he could focus on and stay strong to task.... Never have to be distracted for worring or anticipate having to meet people, be touched by people, or confronted by people.. he could focus on staying on task, keeping a tight heel while walking, or sitting while I engaged with other humans. I always thought of Darien first, I always kept him safe from the one thing that he didn't like. I always knew the path we were to take to lead him for him to know it was safe to follow into tight situations, set appointments at the quiet times , end of day last dog to the vet clinic or in the back door when it was busy.. And he grew tolerant confident and secure.. 

There was so much more to learn and be excellent at, that had nothing to do with other people and dogs in his younger years.. I am totally against confronting a dog over and over again with the things they can't do and traumatizing them over and over again and expecting different results ... then being surprised that it's worse. I am all for starting with stopping the madness completely for them, and teaching them life is great in all other ways, and how to interact in the world without being confronted by what concerns them. 

Awesome dog (if you knew how to play ball "you were in) lol .... have their back, don't feel the need to choose the public over your dog....


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## Sunak (Jul 3, 2014)

My male dog is reactive to almost any other male dog. My solution, preferably before it starts, is to pick him up and carry him past the other male. Not a perfect fix, but it sure has made walks more peaceful. Sometimes I have to orient his line of sight away from the other dog while passing, sometimes not. Even though he always looks like he's spoiling for a fight, it must in fact be fear, because the "flyover" seems to make him feel safe. As he is 17kg, it's doable but I'm glad I don't usually have to carry him too far. In these moments I'm glad he is not a Saint Bernard. :- )


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I would call Watson mildly reactive I guess. He's not a reactive dog in general, in that he isn't hyper alert to different stuff really. He's just very interested in dogs. If it's a busy area with lots of dogs and people he's pretty chill, and he's learned to relax in classes. But if one dog is approaching in a quiet area (like our local trail in the off season) he will look, and stare, and look some more, and sometimes bark once they dog is directly across the trail from us (about 20ft). 

Lately he's gotten so much better and is ignoring most dogs on walks now. I use bring treats, and I do say "leave it" if I have to, but one some walks he's looked to me without a prompt, or just sniffed the ground and ignored the dog. There are specific dogs (intact males) or types of dogs (super reactive ones or GSDs) who he struggles with, but he has gotten a lot better. I think his problem is mostly excitement frustration which he's getting under control. The times he's insecure (like around intact males) is much harder and he often completely ignores me and reacts, but luckily we rarely see these specific intact males who he has a hard time with.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Darien was abused to the point of torture and broken bones, him being HA was understandable and it didn't bother me. No sense in taking him places out into the world to learn to feel safe, if they were not places that he could feel safe. Last thing in the world for him would of been to keep torturing him about strangers / people... took some thought finding places to have fun and explore for the two of us to bond, that going a the right time for us was pretty much void of people and other dogs. That was the most successful start. The way to keep Darien safe in public situations was not changing his mind about people, it was about strong OB skills. strong team skills. That allowed us to maneuver in and through public situations when we needed to. He was a (Rules) dog... That is what gave him confidence.. Life has rules and everyone follows the rules ,, Mom, will step up and make them (people) follow the rules.. Always let Darien keep his voice, always let him put terror and fear into people who didn't play by the rules, kept our humor between us about rude humans,,( we had a grading scale of 1 - 10.. 10 being the scariest affect on people Darien could earn with his antics) it was just between us, it kept it light hearted working together, no stress or fustraction from me to him.. I had his back and he knew it... (never let other people make us feel embarrassed or if there was something wrong with Darien) Skating through real life with majority of humans following the rules, ( Darien does not ever have to interact with people) ( and people do not interact with Darien he is off limits) Darien learned tolerance in public situations and that tolerance really helped around stupid people who didn't want to follow the rules. Darien gave the time to redirect humans who slipped by or been more tricky to sneak up on us and go straight for him.. Main thing is that Darien learned to trust me and interact with me that I had his back always.. Darien was sharp in OB skills down to perfection , he enjoy'd being good at it. we could maneuver any situation in a very structure way and that was what he could focus on and stay strong to task.... Never have to be distracted for worring or anticipate having to meet people, be touched by people, or confronted by people.. he could focus on staying on task, keeping a tight heel while walking, or sitting while I engaged with other humans. I always thought of Darien first, I always kept him safe from the one thing that he didn't like. I always knew the path we were to take to lead him for him to know it was safe to follow into tight situations, set appointments at the quiet times , end of day last dog to the vet clinic or in the back door when it was busy.. And he grew tolerant confident and secure..
> 
> There was so much more to learn and be excellent at, that had nothing to do with other people and dogs in his younger years.. I am totally against confronting a dog over and over again with the things they can't do and traumatizing them over and over again and expecting different results ... then being surprised that it's worse. I am all for starting with stopping the madness completely for them, and teaching them life is great in all other ways, and how to interact in the world without being confronted by what concerns them.
> 
> Awesome dog (if you knew how to play ball "you were in) lol .... have their back, don't feel the need to choose the public over your dog....


I think considering his circumstances that it's fair enough to not allow human interaction! So sad to hear. I think it depends on the dog and how badly their experience with the trigger is. My dog is people reactive but he's improving surprisingly quickly actually and not reacting very often at the minute. I think if his reaction was consistent and no improvement I wouldn't hesitate to stop keep challenging his fear but at the minute I think we are able to undo some of the damage that has been done.



Sunak said:


> My male dog is reactive to almost any other male dog. My solution, preferably before it starts, is to pick him up and carry him past the other male. Not a perfect fix, but it sure has made walks more peaceful. Sometimes I have to orient his line of sight away from the other dog while passing, sometimes not. Even though he always looks like he's spoiling for a fight, it must in fact be fear, because the "flyover" seems to make him feel safe. As he is 17kg, it's doable but I'm glad I don't usually have to carry him too far. In these moments I'm glad he is not a Saint Bernard. :- )


I find it so weird when does are reactive to such a specific... Like why does having balls matter to the dog at all???? Have most of the entire dogs he's met the type to be over threshold and get quite rough/humpy? or has he met calm ones too and they bother him aswell?



elrohwen said:


> I would call Watson mildly reactive I guess. He's not a reactive dog in general, in that he isn't hyper alert to different stuff really. He's just very interested in dogs. If it's a busy area with lots of dogs and people he's pretty chill, and he's learned to relax in classes. But if one dog is approaching in a quiet area (like our local trail in the off season) he will look, and stare, and look some more, and sometimes bark once they dog is directly across the trail from us (about 20ft).
> 
> Lately he's gotten so much better and is ignoring most dogs on walks now. I use bring treats, and I do say "leave it" if I have to, but one some walks he's looked to me without a prompt, or just sniffed the ground and ignored the dog. There are specific dogs (intact males) or types of dogs (super reactive ones or GSDs) who he struggles with, but he has gotten a lot better. I think his problem is mostly excitement frustration which he's getting under control. The times he's insecure (like around intact males) is much harder and he often completely ignores me and reacts, but luckily we rarely see these specific intact males who he has a hard time with.


Ugh Chilli is the same, he's very quick to get aroused around dogs, if he's in a large group of them like on a viz whizz he rarely engages them and stays close to me (actually the only time he's ok with large groups of people, like he will literally go up to them and take treats and everything, even new people???) but one to one he's very much a rough house lunatic and if he's on lead or has a barrier between the two he'll get really frustrated and end up barking/lunging.

Again, what is it about entire males that freak him out or is it just one of those things? Is he entire too?


Well today we did some LAT/BAT and it went really well, people passed a few feet away on the other side of a park gate and he lay in the relaxed side pose and kept focus on me. Only time he reacted was when someone started up a power tool and then again when someone pulled up in a car real fast with loud music, both times he did a single "gruff" and then focused on me again.

I'm using a mix of rewarding when he's looking at the trigger and then distraction/focus on me with tugs or food rewards. He seems to be really fast at adapting, like he's fine with his muzzle going on and getting treats through the gap after like 2 quick sessions and his reactions to people have reduced a lot.... Starting to think it's just a fear period and he's going to come out of the other side thinking wtf... maybe I'm just being optimistic though!

Edit:

Something else I wanted to discuss is getting another dog with a reactive dog. You guys all seem to have multiple dogs... I really want another dog at some point but my brother pointed out it was necessarily a good idea because the new dog might feed off the energy or learn from the other dog. Is this the case? Would it depend on the temperament of the new dog, if I trained them separately etc aswell would the other dog likely end up with reaction issues?

I'd love a Klee Kai ultimately but I know they're naturally fairly wary of people so not sure it'd be the greatest choice in my current dogs life time.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Sassy was very reactive to other dogs and I didn't have good tools for handling it at that point. Getting another dog just made a pack that was more reactive. On his own Max was fine with other dogs, with Sassy they formed a pack that chased other dogs in rude play [at dog park, not the neighborhood!]. Good thing was I did get some tools and it got better but just having another dog isn't likely to help. Get another dog because you are up to double the fun and work, not to help with some issue your dog has.

Ginger screamed that she would die unless she got to meet other dogs when I got her, with the aid of a lot of string cheese she now mutters under her breath so back yard dogs will bark at her so she gets a bit of cheese when she looks at me instead of barking back. Working it she is!

Max barked in terror at scary people the day after we got him and by the time he left us at 14 years of age he could calmly walk by people but still had trouble if they looked or talked to him. I developed my own version of 'look at me' where I c/t continuously until trigger passed by. On his own he started looking at me and I was able to slow down the c/t to just praise and a cookie over several months. I did need to carry treats for his whole life, this never went away.

Bucky has been here a month and just starting to show his complete awfulness. He adores being rude to other dogs [jumps on backs if at dog park/barks if restrained on leash], afraid of people [barks if leashed, approaches and sniffs at dog park], loses his brain when there are good smells or in new places. Good thing he likes me, is the cutest thing playing with his toys, very trainable, food motivated unless his brain is gone and looks adorable. Oh, a little guy so his worst charges can be held with a single finger in the leash loop. He is more like Sassy than like Ginger or Max, hoping he will end up the great partner Sassy was in a couple years.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Kathyy said:


> Sassy was very reactive to other dogs and I didn't have good tools for handling it at that point. Getting another dog just made a pack that was more reactive. On his own Max was fine with other dogs, with Sassy they formed a pack that chased other dogs in rude play [at dog park, not the neighborhood!]. Good thing was I did get some tools and it got better but just having another dog isn't likely to help. Get another dog because you are up to double the fun and work, not to help with some issue your dog has.
> 
> Ginger screamed that she would die unless she got to meet other dogs when I got her, with the aid of a lot of string cheese she now mutters under her breath so back yard dogs will bark at her so she gets a bit of cheese when she looks at me instead of barking back. Working it she is!
> 
> ...


Oh I'd never get a dog to fix another dog's issues. That's something I'm working on in a 1 to 1 situation, I already have a springer spaniel living with us which is my mum's dog but she only comes when we're going to our 'secret place' where my dog is allowed off leash because we can see from all angles easily and it's rare to see someone there so I don't need to manage him so it's fine to have the both of them.

The main reason I want another dog is because the SS doesn't play with other dogs so my dog really winds her up a treat and I'd like to take the pressure off her and have a dog mine can really rip around with, also so many breeds I want!

I think people who rescue/rehab reactive dogs are literally heroes, I don't think I'd be able to do it through my whole life!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Reactivity is normal otherwise you'd be pulling a stuffed animal behind you on walks. It is the degree that is the issue. We'd all love dogs that see dogs/humans/cars/cats/rabbits/squirrels/burritos and just note the presence of such and look away. Sassy saw new things each and every time we took a walk for a good YEAR after we got her. Every sprinkler head, bit of trash, weed was reacted to. The sawhorse across the sidewalk repair was there for a month, we went by it daily and she had to renew her acquaintance with it every single day. She probably treated all those objects as new to her if other members of the family walked her as well. She was no generalizer that was for darn sure!

Early days, I am hoping that Ginger's wonderfulness rubs off on Bucky as in I hope my dog handling skills are part of her being so wonderful.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> I find it so weird when does are reactive to such a specific... Like why does having balls matter to the dog at all???? Have most of the entire dogs he's met the type to be over threshold and get quite rough/humpy? or has he met calm ones too and they bother him aswell?
> 
> Again, what is it about entire males that freak him out or is it just one of those things? Is he entire too?


Yes, Watson is also intact, which is probably part of his problem. I think intact males tend to be pretty "doggie" sometimes - very interested in other dog and what they are doing. I don't think that necessarily makes them reactive, but it can easily lead to frustration when the only thing they want to do is check out that other dog, but they have a leash on and can't do it. I'm pretty sure that is the bulk of Watson's issue since, like I said, he's not a reactive dog in the general sense (towards noises, people, etc).

As far as not liking intact males, a lot of neutered males also hate intact males, though I have had people (like a behaviorist) suggest that neutering him might make him better with other intact males. So I'm not sure. But I have had neutered dogs react aggressively to him because he's intact (according to the owners).



> Something else I wanted to discuss is getting another dog with a reactive dog. You guys all seem to have multiple dogs... I really want another dog at some point but my brother pointed out it was necessarily a good idea because the new dog might feed off the energy or learn from the other dog. Is this the case? Would it depend on the temperament of the new dog, if I trained them separately etc aswell would the other dog likely end up with reaction issues?


I think it really depends. I was worried about my puppy becoming reactive by being around Watson when he reacts. Luckily she has very rarely seen him react (a combination of him being pretty good now, plus doing a lot of walking them separately still). And I don't think she's a reactive type. She is interested in dogs but ultimately doesn't care that much about them. I don't see her getting insecure or excited/frustrated in the future.

Our friends have a super reactive dog, and he is calmer when walking with Watson. This was mostly when Watson was not reactive (when he was around a year old). But having that other calmer dog was helpful to him. Watson on the other hand doesn't seem to derive any help from Hazel walking with him.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Kathyy said:


> Reactivity is normal otherwise you'd be pulling a stuffed animal behind you on walks. It is the degree that is the issue. We'd all love dogs that see dogs/humans/cars/cats/rabbits/squirrels/burritos and just note the presence of such and look away. Sassy saw new things each and every time we took a walk for a good YEAR after we got her. Every sprinkler head, bit of trash, weed was reacted to. The sawhorse across the sidewalk repair was there for a month, we went by it daily and she had to renew her acquaintance with it every single day. She probably treated all those objects as new to her if other members of the family walked her as well. She was no generalizer that was for darn sure!
> 
> Early days, I am hoping that Ginger's wonderfulness rubs off on Bucky as in I hope my dog handling skills are part of her being so wonderful.


Ye obviously but I'm talking long term reactive issues, I really admire anyone purposely taking on those kinds of dogs and managing them or "fixing" them.

On a more funny side I was so embarrassed earlier, I was walking in a field with sheep and came across an owner with two border collies, both playing fetch and completely ignoring the sheep and then there's my gundog trying to get at them and chase them... I felt shown up but ofcourse not all BCs want to herd sheep so maybe the owner was just lucky, made me laugh though 

edit:



elrohwen said:


> Yes, Watson is also intact, which is probably part of his problem. I think intact males tend to be pretty "doggie" sometimes - very interested in other dog and what they are doing. I don't think that necessarily makes them reactive, but it can easily lead to frustration when the only thing they want to do is check out that other dog, but they have a leash on and can't do it. I'm pretty sure that is the bulk of Watson's issue since, like I said, he's not a reactive dog in the general sense (towards noises, people, etc).
> 
> As far as not liking intact males, a lot of neutered males also hate intact males, though I have had people (like a behaviorist) suggest that neutering him might make him better with other intact males. So I'm not sure. But I have had neutered dogs react aggressively to him because he's intact (according to the owners).
> 
> ...


I've heard all sorts about intact/neutered dogs. From people saying neutered dogs smell like bitches/in season, dogs who hate intact dogs, dogs who are hated by another dog for being intact etc. I never know which is true, I go on Viz whizzes where there's sometimes 15+ dogs and about 80% of the boys are entire and the only one who has real issues with other dogs is one who is used for stud. The others get on well and the biggest problem is humping from over excitement usually. Obviously that doesn't prove anything about the relationship between entire hating dogs, I just don't understand why really and have never met one who particularly goes for an entire dog that doesn't go for a neutered one but I'm in a small part of the world. I guess it's very possible, I mean I know of dogs who hate certain breeds so being intact and being able to sense hormones seems very realistic I guess.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Ye obviously but I'm talking long term reactive issues, I really admire anyone purposely taking on those kinds of dogs and managing them or "fixing" them.
> 
> On a more funny side I was so embarrassed earlier, I was walking in a field with sheep and came across an owner with two border collies, both playing fetch and completely ignoring the sheep and then there's my gundog trying to get at them and chase them... I felt shown up but ofcourse not all BCs want to herd sheep so maybe the owner was just lucky, made me laugh though


The bigger the animal, the more my "bird dog" loses his mind. He thinks deer are the most exciting thing ever, and the few times he's seen larger livestock he has lost his mind. Small song birds barely register for him though. I call him my big game hunter. lol


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

gingerwrinklepup Darien grew up just fine letting go on his own, several people threw themselves on him in public places , one even kissing him all over his face and he just let it be in the moment. Never forget how un-expecting peoples behaviors can be when they see a dog out in public. Play a simple toss and catch game of ball was an ice breaker for him.. "if you play ball then you must be a good person" it was Dariens universal language that he could understand so I did exploit it.. He passed several years ago was my heart dog for sure. long live never laid a mouth on anyone... did send many running for their lives, he always kept that humorous side of him to be a prankster at heart here and there .. My favorite one was Darien and Major in the back of the truck coming home from a show we stopped at KFC. Was about to walk in and saw a vehicle pull in right next to the truck. And could only see the tips of their GSD ears as the man got out of his truck had his back turned to my camper shell , just enough room to open and shut his door and start walking away.. Darien and Major let the man pass by the camper side window then Darien jumped up and he and Major started roaring at the man.. Man took off running across the parking lot as if he thought the dogs were right behind him.. It was so sneaky terrible of my two to that poor man... lol I secretly gave them a perfect 10 for how frightened the guy was and how fast he had run away until he finally stopped to realize the dogs were in the truck and not loose chasing him.... Miss you Darien, miss you so much for how much you loved life........ 

They area all worth the time to keep them safe and help them.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

PatriciafromCO said:


> gingerwrinklepup Darien grew up just fine letting go on his own, several people threw themselves on him in public places , one even kissing him all over his face and he just let it be in the moment. Never forget how un-expecting peoples behaviors can be when they see a dog out in public. Play a simple toss and catch game of ball was an ice breaker for him.. "if you play ball then you must be a good person" it was Dariens universal language that he could understand so I did exploit it.. He passed several years ago was my heart dog for sure. long live never laid a mouth on anyone... did send many running for their lives, he always kept that humorous side of him to be a prankster at heart here and there .. My favorite one was Darien and Major in the back of the truck coming home from a show we stopped at KFC. Was about to walk in and saw a vehicle pull in right next to the truck. And could only see the tips of their GSD ears as the man got out of his truck had his back turned to my camper shell , just enough room to open and shut his door and start walking away.. Darien and Major let the man pass by the camper side window then Darien jumped up and he and Major started roaring at the man.. Man took off running across the parking lot as if he thought the dogs were right behind him.. It was so sneaky terrible of my two to that poor man... lol I secretly gave them a perfect 10 for how frightened the guy was and how fast he had run away until he finally stopped to realize the dogs were in the truck and not loose chasing him.... Miss you Darien, miss you so much for how much you loved life........
> 
> They area all worth the time to keep them safe and help them.


LOL excellent.
We're moving at the minute so we have a skip to dispose of things, people keep trying to rummage through and it's hilarious how fast they decide not to when Chilli barks at them.
One women was looking through it at 1am the other night, god knows why but Chilli noticed and lets just say she could of won a power walking award... Their reactivity does give us moments of laughter


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, my dogs haven't learned reactivity from each other. Kylie, however, will get seriously TICKED and snapped Molly in the face if they're together and she reacts. It isn't Kylie redirecting, it's Kylie correcting Molly. Kind of not the best thing ever, but possibly not the worst, either.

That's about as far as it's gotten, though. She's the youngest, though, so might be different if she were showing other dogs the ropes instead of other way around. Maybe.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Kairi started being excitement reactive to other dogs when she was about 4 months old. It was during puppy classes I noticed that she started to bark when the other dogs were getting all amped up, or if it was there "turn" to work on something and not Kairi's. Once puppy class was over, I made the huge mistakes of taking a break. I came back to obedience after about a month and a half and she was definitely much worse. I didn't get any practice with her though since there was only 1 other dog in my class. I started agility foundation classes when Kairi was about 11 months. She was insanely horrible.. barking/pulling toward dogs every time they got amped up, or took their turn. Agility classes were very difficult handling a reactive dog and trying to learn handling myself. Fast forward one year and she is still reactive to dogs on the course... however.. she is not difficult to handle like she was before. She redirects back to me quickly and ignores them 90% of the time. She has seriously come a long way and I am definitely ready to take on more reactive dogs if need-be! 

One thing I've definitely learned about reactive behavior is that it is not always aggressive. It is often just pent up frustration and caused by barriers most of the time. Kairi is actually extremely dog friendly despite how she sounds. 

Ember has not learned to be reactive from Kairi, thank goodness.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah. I should really say Molly's about as interested in attacking another dog as she is in doing the polka. She's sometimes over excited and frustrated, sometimes fearful, her play with other dogs can be hugely inappropriate and obnoxious, but she isn't at all aggressive. Just... loud.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Nova is reactive towards strangers. If they so much as make eye contact with her, she will defensively bark at them. Sometimes there is also lunging. Her reactivity seems to become a lot worse when SO is away for long periods of time. When he is home, she is still fearful but rarely reacts (maybe an episode once a month). It's really odd, but I know she misses him a lot when he's away. Her GI tract even gets all upset when he's away.

She is also reactive when strangers or people she isn't super familiar with come to the house. This is a constant, whether SO is gone or not, so she has to be in her crate or in another room on the odd occasion a stranger visits.

We have done LAT along with management. She gets SJW to help her get through SO being away, which really seems to help reduce her stress. She is doing right fabulous now. You wouldn't even guess that she is reactive...timid? Yes. But not reactive. I don't know what she will be like when SO goes away again, though. We will see, and I will do my best to help her get through it if she needs it.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

pawsaddict said:


> Nova is reactive towards strangers. If they so much as make eye contact with her, she will defensively bark at them. Sometimes there is also lunging. Her reactivity seems to become a lot worse when SO is away for long periods of time. When he is home, she is still fearful but rarely reacts (maybe an episode once a month). It's really odd, but I know she misses him a lot when he's away. Her GI tract even gets all upset when he's away.
> 
> She is also reactive when strangers or people she isn't super familiar with come to the house. This is a constant, whether SO is gone or not, so she has to be in her crate or in another room on the odd occasion a stranger visits.
> 
> ...


My dog is exactly the same in the house, he will bark and lunge quite severely if they're too close and a stranger and especially if they make eye contact with him. Our trainer found sitting in the corner of the room tossing treats at him is the most effect way to deal with that at the minute. We're moving on Wednesday though and we'll finally have a utility room to shut him during people visiting with an adaptil plugin and work on people walking past the door way and throwing in treats, much safer and less intimidating!

As for his outside work, it's going very well so far, we heel passed a group of people and then had some sniffing while a kid was very close



Small steps but that's what keeps me going


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## Sunak (Jul 3, 2014)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> I find it so weird when does are reactive to such a specific... Like why does having balls matter to the dog at all???? Have most of the entire dogs he's met the type to be over threshold and get quite rough/humpy? or has he met calm ones too and they bother him aswell?


Yeah, it is weird. In Benny's case I'm guessing that he was attacked repeatedly by (male) village dogs when he was a wandering street dog before he came to me. If he's riding up at my chest level, I guess he feels safe, because he can usually manage then. Benny loves all female dogs and hates all male dogs, except small male puppies. He accepts their "puppy license" and will even frolic with them.


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## ariella (Aug 17, 2015)

Firstly, congratulations on the progress you've made so far! It sounds like a pretty tough situation, but you're owning it 

My Springer Spaniel (Joey) who I adopted two months ago was insanely reactive to most things when we brought him home - people, dogs, birds, anything blowing in the wind, etc. I think it's because his last owners never trained, socialised or walked him at all so everything was very new to him and he just didn't know how to act. Luckily for me, he was 8 months old when I got him so he's been pretty quick to learn so far. He is still pretty reactive to everything, but we've made so much progress that I can see hope in the future! 

At first he submissively peed every time someone new came towards him, (including us when we'd get home) but this has really subsided and he's actually quite trusting of new people now. The big thing was dog reactivity - if he saw another dog far, far in the distance he would go absolutely crazy barking, lunging, snapping, doing backflips on the lead and would lose all sense of anything else and it would be really hard for me to pull him away. But lots of walks, painstakingly getting slowly closer to other dogs with 'look at me' and training commands to distract his mind really helped and we've gotten to the point that we can go to group doggy classes and he can still focus on me a lot of the time if I have treats that are yummy enough! He still pulls like crazy on walks when we see another dog but the big reactions with barking and snapping have stopped, and he's been able to sniff hello to other dogs on leash without anything bad happening so that's really built up his (and my) confidence! It was embarrassing and upsetting at first, but he's making me so proud with his quick progress. He's gonna be such a good dog 

The big thing that I need to work on now is how reactive he is to birds and moving things. I guess being a springer spaniel, his prey drive is enormous. If there's a bird close by on a walk I lose all control of him and he's lunging and barking. I'm kind of struggling with how to deal with it. I might try having special yummy treats especially for those occasions and using the 'leave it' command to see if that helps. He's has a huge food drive so if I find something really yummy to distract him I might be able to get his attention and reward any calm behaviour around birds. 

Thanks for making a little reactive dog support group!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I had a good talk with our trainer today, and once Molly is out of agility classes and things settle and give us all a bit more time we're a 'go' for doing some real behavioral modification stuff. It'll probably be November (might be earlier, but that's my guess based on agility things in October), but I'm just... glad to have a plan to go forward. It impacts her quality of life and I want more for her than staying home or being uncomfortable.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Bucky has been running next to the trike for a mile or so daily, that is helping. Since he got tagged by a wheel he keeps an eye on the sneaky things and looks like he knows what is going on at last. I do have to run him first or he will chew on the cage. Running dogs have been less reactive for me, less time to get worked up and they are busy.

Last night he walked around the block with DD. She reports he ignored a dog and paid attention to her at least half the time. And went around the block, first time for that. He was not wanting to go that far with her last week.

I also took him for a real hike. I've been turning around after .4 miles as he had been getting completely wigged out but that time he was calmer with normal looking around and sniffing so I went for it, about 1.5 miles total. Sadly my knee decided to act up so no more hikes until it feels better.

Been a good dog week, mostly ups.


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

Decided I should join in on this thread!

Duke has been reactive (mostly with other dogs, sometimes with people) basically since I adopted him when he 9 months old. He's been doing fantastic with the LAT training and has been so much better when he sees dogs around the apartment building (unless they suddenly appear around corners). So, I decided to move our walks from by ourselves in the woods to a local walking trail. 

It's only been two days but so far he's done fantastic! Both days the trail was packed with joggers, bikers, and dogs. Every time I see a dog coming, I pull of to the side of the trail and shove treats down his throat, and while he still gets super over stimulated and lunges a bit, he has not gone full out cujo haha. Hopefully as time goes on these walks will become easier and easier, and we'll be able to step it to the next level again. He's already mostly ignoring the bikers and joggers which is an extremely good sign.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Good job with Duke!

We 'hiked' this morning and Bucky didn't have to scream at horses until they were out of sight! AND he was able to eat if I shoved food in his mouth. Ooo, and the hikers on the hill didn't bother him a bit. So in what 2-3 years he might behave himself around horses? I walked him past the stables and nothing, it is horses on the trail that are exciting and of course much more dangerous a situation.


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## hookilau (Jun 10, 2015)

Calypso is just 5 months old now & has started to bark aggressively & charge at people and other dogs on leash. She's about 12 #'s and is a Maltese/APBT mix, and she looks it. So she looks pretty comical looking to begin with. 

Thankfully, this helps but we still get nasty looks from people at parks, particularly places where children frequent. It IS lonely -__- The lack of empathy for someone trying to work through issues like this is saddening. I ignore the Judgey-McJudgey pants people but can't like and say it doesn't bother me.

We weren't too concerned since every weekend and free weekend night, we've been taking our dogs out in passive social situations for enrichment, but also to increase their social skills.

It's embarrassing, though I've noticed hiking people laugh it off or just smile & nod, but do not engage the dog. This makes it easier to re-direct her but she will take the treat, only to turn her head and 'boof' =/ 

Here reactions did not become more insistent, rather, consistent and now accompanied by growling.

If people engage her even though she's barking and growling with a happy voice or dismissive happy voice, she gets happy & turns into a wiggle bum, but not always. If they disengage within the first minute or so, she barks and acts unfriendly. If they stick around through her barks, she LOVES them and remembers them in general terms. 

We went to the Pet Store on Sunday & spent the whole afternoon giving people and other dogs a hard time, lol. You want to see naughty dogs?...go to the pet store!!! It just so happened that they had a vaccination clinic that day too, so to be fair, a lot of those dogs likely don't leave the house often except for vaccines =P

It took us about 2 hours to be able to get close to the vestibule, but we did it. Originally, I had no plans to get even close to the pet store, and only planned to work in the parking lot, ducking behind cars and obstacles in order to get ahead of a tantrum.

LAT/BAT, good timing and excellent scanning skills got us through. We ended up being able to go inside and walk around, meet other dogs & people. It's helpful that people come and go quickly, so the parking lot was really a great place to work. 

Once we got inside, it was like DisneyLand for her, she'd quit taking treats & focused on the sights and smells. 

Looking back, I realize I made the mistake of continuing social situations that would allow her to continue to practice her undesirable displays. When she was on a drag leash, episodes were intermittent to half-hearted, if at all. 

She had also started running in fear from big dogs. Not sure why, she LIVES and plays with 2 different big dogs every day. Though we started LAT/BAT, what worked better for us was the fact that at the Pet Store parking lot, people were focused on getting their dog food to the car & getting on their busy day.

In social situations, triggers would linger as they had no place to go & were in no hurry to do it. Since parking lot people just glanced our way & smiled, or not, and KEPT GOING weather words were exchanged or not, she began to focus more on me than on the triggers.

Things went so well, we visited a second pet store that was just as busy. Again, things went well & so we did something I've NEVER done in all my years of keeping dogs....we went to a Dog Park.

There was a separate area for small dogs & my 2 were the only ones there. They ran around like idiots & got to see the big dogs through a chain link fence. I was thrilled and surprised that Calypso looked at them with interest but not fear =) She hung around there a lot watching them with a soft body.

Then another little dog arrived that barked and chased Calypso quite a bit. She played along for about 30 minutes & then suddenly during a huge zoomie circle, she decided to use my lap as a landing pad. I put her on the ground and 5 minutes later, she did it again. Ooops, she'd had enough of the other dog, it was time to go home.

That last part reminded me not get too cocky with my new found freedom.

Treats: I made baby food drops and she damn near cleaned me out. They were great, about the size of chocolate chips or slightly smaller, not crumbly & very high value.
Bonus points for no diarrhea the next day =D

recipe: 
4 small jars of meat babyfood (I used chicken)
2 whole eggs (without shells)
enough rice flour to produce a batter similar to cake batter because you will be piping these into little dots

I used a plastic piping bag & could not remember where I put the tips, so I just snipped the corner off & went to work. You could also use a plastic zip lock bag for this.

I piped teeny dots onto a sheet of parchment & baked at 350F until they were dry looking and before getting a blush of golden brown. For my oven & the amount and size of baking tray, 6 minutes did the trick.

You'll know they're ready because they release from the parchment paper & literally roll off the baking sheet. I set them to cool & they had a slight firm texture when cool but definitely still remained soft enough for my intended purpose. They also don't smell offensive.

This recipe yields A LOT of training treats. We have 5 dogs so I know I'll use 'em up. I suppose they'll freeze well, but not sure if they'll get spongy or soggy upon defrost. 
I expect you can divide the batter, freeze, then defrost in the fridge and bake up as needed though.

I have some PB2 just gathering dust here in my cupboard. I have plans to try it this weekend by replacing the baby food with PB2, some regular peanut butter & a wee bit of oil.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

I know I said positive only stuff on here but I'm really struggling with my dog again... Mostly due to my parent's attitude.

The other day I was building my new PC chair and asked my mum to help, she entered the room and chilli started to "guard me"and started growling so I said to my mum to back out of the room and I'll move so you're not leaning over him and me and he'll stop that so you can help. Ofcourse because she knows **** all about dog behavior and heavily believes in dominance theory she said no and grabbed his face in attempt to comfort him and said he needs to be told, and then tried to come closer to me again at which point he escalated and lunged (mouth closed) and growled so she ran on in a fit. I tried to explain to her why it happened and she just blew it off as I didn't dominate him from a young age so that's why he's like this. I tried to explain how to fix the problem by always backing off when he's growling and when he's not she can throw treats at him when she's approaching but she said no I'm not rewards him for that behavior. Sigh. How the hell do I move forward with that kind of attitude.

I've booked to go see a (vet?) behaviorist which is part of the association of pet behavior council which you can only get through vet referall so hopefully they'll be able to right up another plan (Did have one from a trainer) and maybe advice on possible medication to help along with positive methods.

That's not until the 11th of Nov though and they're away so they can't actually come and listen to the lady and learn why not to ignore or punish growls etc.

I'm just struggling and being naturally anxious myself isn't helping because it's getting harder for me to go out because I'm worried something will happen which might be why we're not making huge progress anyway. I mean we're able to walk around people without reactions most the time at least...

I kind of want to hire someone or have a trainer who will work with me on a weekly basis to set up scenarios but the behaviorist just does on consult and then sends you on your way to do the plan... Who the hell do I contact to set up this kind of thing?

I'm determined to stay responsible for this dog because it's likely me that's caused it in some way and that's the right thing to do but I'm worrying that he could be better with someone else who is less anxious, more organized and better at training than I am. I mean if I rehomed him then I'd just be palming him off and I always want a dog so I'd end up getting another and that wouldn't be fair in the slightest. I've learned so much about socialising since getting him so know if I could start again with him he'd turn out much better but I guess that's not worth thinking about, sigh.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You did not cause this.

You may not have maximized his potential but you did not cause this. Some dogs are just... what they are, and there's only so much influence you are going to have. I get the guilt and embarrassment, but frankly it *isn't your fault*

I recently started working with a dog who has spent HIS ENTIRE LIFE on a chain. He's now 5. He'd been in a truck/car ONCE, never seen a vet, never been in a house, never been pet or handled, never had his nails done, never been groomed or bathed, never been taught to so much as sit, never been on a leash. NOTHING. 

He is now a little bit cautious/wary of some things, but he is not reactive. I shoved him in a crate and drove him to the vet. Strangers (to him) have handled him by necessity. I've crated him in my house to keep Thud from eating him. I've taken him on walks in places he's never been (anywhere). I've done his nails and groomed some nasty messes out of his fur. Introduced him to my cats and the smaller dogs. All sorts of things all at once. You know what he's done? Wagged his tail and licked me. 

Molly, meanwhile, I might not have done EVERYTHING right with but has been in classes and out and about since she was tiny. Yet a downed mailbox makes her scream, she barks and growls and lunges at other dogs and the occasional person for no reason I can determine and a couple of weeks ago blew me off to go after another dog. I could probably have handled her temperament better and trained better and minimized some of this, but I wilL NOT be convinced that anything I would have done with her would have made her completely non-reactive. 

Because I've got a 5+ year old dog with ZERO socialization and training here who is fine, and that's clearly completely inborn because no one has ever done a thing with him before.

So. Stop with the beating yourself up. It's not your fault, you are doing the best you can.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

CptJack said:


> You did not cause this.
> 
> You may not have maximized his potential but you did not cause this. Some dogs are just... what they are, and there's only so much influence you are going to have. I get the guilt and embarrassment, but frankly it *isn't your fault*
> 
> ...


Thank you I kind of need someone to tell me that  I kind of know that it isnt necessarily all my fault but at the same time having my parents tell me I was too soft on him by only using positive or light corrections on him caused this is very hard on my confidence etc.

I get how they feel, it can't be nice having a dog growl or lunge at you and he's never had a negative reaction to me so it's all good me saying "I'm happy to deal and manage it" but they're not obviously. I really hope they will listen to the behaviorist, she said she won't listen to me because I have no qualifications (even know the trainer I went to and obvious research says back off when a dog is growling) and that it is because I didn't dominate him when he's a pup and she won't be growled at under her roof....

I just need to suck it up and get organised with making high value treats and getting him around people more in correct situations, working on his muzzle training etc. It would just be nice to have family support and understanding but I've never gotten that lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Thank you I kind of need someone to tell me that  I kind of know that it isnt necessarily all my fault but at the same time having my parents tell me I was too soft on him by only using positive or light corrections on him caused this is very hard on my confidence etc.
> 
> I get how they feel, it can't be nice having a dog growl or lunge at you and he's never had a negative reaction to me so it's all good me saying "I'm happy to deal and manage it" but they're not obviously. I really hope they will listen to the behaviorist, she said she won't listen to me because I have no qualifications (even know the trainer I went to and obvious research says back off when a dog is growling) and that it is because I didn't dominate him when he's a pup and she won't be growled at under her roof....
> 
> I just need to suck it up and get organised with making high value treats and getting him around people more in correct situations, working on his muzzle training etc. It would just be nice to have family support and understanding but I've never gotten that lol


I am fortunate that my family is by and large supportive and also that Molly is really, really fine at home and with most people once she knows them. 

I still get embarrassed, frustrated, guilty, and feel like a tremendous failure. It isn't so much feeling like I broke her (anymore - it used to be) and caused it, as feeling like I should have been able to fix it. We've been working on this consistently for right at a year now. She's been in weekly classes for all of 2015. WHY IS THIS STILL AN ISSUE?

I know the answer to that, I really do. It doesn't make me feel less generally crappy that I haven't fixed this issue. My honest, emotional reaction is 'Ugh. It's been a year. Are we STILL doing this? How have I not solved this yet?!? WHAT IS WRONG WITH ME?"

We're talking about meds at the end of this month, we've got a behavioral modification thing that we'll be doing with professional help starting in November, and all, but. Mostly I am just working to set my expectations and assessments aside until she's 3 (she's 17 months old). For now, she is what she is. We will work, we will train, we will try things, we will play (and take precautions to make sure everyone is safe) but I will not reassess her and where she is again until she's 3. 

Otherwise, I'm going to concuss myself on the brick wall I feel like I'm beating my head against. I'm also hoping that by then the 'what do you do with a high energy, high drive, dog who loses its crap around people/dogs?' will have answered itself and will have adapted.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

CptJack said:


> I am fortunate that my family is by and large supportive and also that Molly is really, really fine at home and with most people once she knows them.
> 
> I still get embarrassed, frustrated, guilty, and feel like a tremendous failure. It isn't so much feeling like I broke her (anymore - it used to be) and caused it, as feeling like I should have been able to fix it. We've been working on this consistently for right at a year now. She's been in weekly classes for all of 2015. WHY IS THIS STILL AN ISSUE?
> 
> ...


Our situations sound pretty identical but you seems to be slightly more ontop of it and better at not blaming yourself !

The thing is he responds really well to the modification work I do for him but then things set him back, like the thing with my mum the other day. I was literally so angry after then because it just proved to him he needs to escalator above a simple growl to get the people he's scared of to get away from him. I had no sympathy for her because I warned her several times that it was going to happen. Doesn't make it any less frustrating though.

I need to find someone to help me, he knows all my friends so there's no point trying to get them to do fear work with him. I guess they could all wear hoods?!

I think I need to find a trainer who will do sessions with him without directly having contact, like just spend the whole time working on his threshold of people coming towards him once or twice a week. If he gets to know them he just becomes a lovable sod.

I think the worst part is his unpredictability though, sometimes he will pass someone fine and others he alarm barks and lunges.

I really want to find a 1v1 agility trainer who will build a relationship with him and then give him an outlet other than walking and other games I play.

I just wish I could move out and manage him a lot better.

Edit:
Also confused about the whole neutering thing, I want to wait until atleast 24 months re: breeder advise but aften then, my moral has always been only neuter if there's a medical reason because I know it can be a bit hit and miss with behavior problems and can make them worse but theres just so many people who vouch for both sides.. ugh, maybe the behaviorist will be knowledgeable about it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, Molly and I started CAT today. 

We've only had one session and I'm not ready to tout it as a miracle cure or anything, but it makes so much more sense to me than BAT and LAT or, honestly, most of the other methods. It does need a trainer, but at its heart it is really just about reinforcing the dog's use of calming signals and the reward being the trigger going away. You don't prompt, cue, mark, or reward behavior in any other way. The dog reacts, whatever the trigger is stays put. The dog stops reacting and uses a calming signal? The trigger leaves. 

That's it. It builds up a library of alternative methods for getting people/dogs/whatever to back off. Lunging and barking for most of these dogs has proven effective to getting whatever's scary to go away. This is giving them other tools to use. 

I can't imagine doing it without a trainer. So much is so subtle that someone really needs to be focused on watching for those other behaviors and directing the helper dog and handler to come closer or back off, but my god I like this. 

I expected it to be more stressful than it was, but truthfully... it wasn't. Yeah, she reacted some (very little actually) but we threw in some play breaks and she actually picked up pretty fast what worked to make the other dog back off so there wasn't much forward reaction. At the end of our hour and some change she followed the helper dog back to our car pretty happily and loosely and without an issue. 

We need to do this a bunch more times with a bunch more dogs, novel locations even groups of dogs, but. 

This is good. This is really, really good.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

CptJack said:


> So, Molly and I started CAT today.
> 
> We've only had one session and I'm not ready to tout it as a miracle cure or anything, but it makes so much more sense to me than BAT and LAT or, honestly, most of the other methods. It does need a trainer, but at its heart it is really just about reinforcing the dog's use of calming signals and the reward being the trigger going away. You don't prompt, cue, mark, or reward behavior in any other way. The dog reacts, whatever the trigger is stays put. The dog stops reacting and uses a calming signal? The trigger leaves.
> 
> ...


That sounds interesting! I'm glad you and Molly found something that might work for you! Keep us updated on her progress. I really know nothing about CAT.

I'm not sure how that method would translate to a dog who is excited-reactive, except maybe the opposite? Dog or person moves -closer- when no longer barking like mad?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> That sounds interesting! I'm glad you and Molly found something that might work for you! Keep us updated on her progress. I really know nothing about CAT.
> 
> I'm not sure how that method would translate to a dog who is excited-reactive, except maybe the opposite? Dog or person moves -closer- when no longer barking like mad?


I really don't know. There isn't nearly as much out there about CAT as opposed to BAT and LAT and most of what is, is targeted toward professionals (for obvious reasons). I suspect a good trainer could find a way to modify this for a frustrated greeter, since at its very most basic it's effectively teaching the dog to use more appropriate dog-dog communication methods, but I'm not entirely sure what that would look like. 

I could see it just being 'wait for something that's not crazy reactivity/lunging/barking/whatever before allowing the dog to progress/greet', maybe penalty yards if reaction happens but um. That's me and gut instinct. I'm clearly not a professional anything or actually recommending anything. And I'm not sure if it even counts as the same thing at that stage. Ie: Standard disclaimers apply, this is just me thinking.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What does CAT stand for? 

I was all excited thinking y'all were doing a CAT (Coursing Ability Test). lol Whoops.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> What does CAT stand for?
> 
> I was all excited thinking y'all were doing a CAT (Coursing Ability Test). lol Whoops.


Ahahaha. Oops, sorry.

Constructional Aggression Treatment.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

CptJack that sounds really interesting!

We went to see a vet behaviorist last week, wow what an interesting 3 hours, lots of info to be absorbed while trying to control a reactive dog wasn't easy but in the end we had Chilli sleeping while we chatted near the end, he even sat for her a few times!

12 write up, breaking down why he's like this, what motivates the behavior, what i need to do now and what I need to do in the future..

She basically said he is anxious all day, everyday.. obviously apart from when we're having fun doing things.
She's broken down why he's like it and it mostly boils down to losing my grandad (prime attachment figure) in the first few weeks of me getting him which is obviously when they're peak for socializing and learning, so then he attached to my other dogs while I was in work etc so they became really high value to him and then they were re-homed because I couldn't afford 3 dogs and that was like a month after getting him so another early trauma... then me working sometimes 7 days a week so he was getting left alot... Then we moved, and now we just moved again. The only thing that has stayed constant is me which is why he's so attached to me and relies on me heavily, resource guards me etc.

She's basically said remove all attempts to socialise him for now because he's so anxious on a daily basis, to try and socialise like that would be very hard and we need to get a solid, confident base to even think about doing that. So ye, there was me thinking it was just an issue of him being reactive to people where infact he's anxious of life on a daily basis, so sad.

So for now it's lots of brain games, positive only obedience training, ignoring any negative behaviors including any attention seeking and reacting as this feeds him and gets him more frustrated. She said I have to choose times where I'll completely ignore him to help him settle and stop relying on me for comfort, entertainment etc as much to give him more independence and think for himself. We're basically playing a huge game of wow you're amazing! Noone is allowed to tell you otherwise (even if he is a naughty puppy!) just to give him a boost of self esteem!

For walking/exercising him physically I'm super lucky! I work at a dog park and we have a separate section for reactive dogs and my manager is letting me use that daily for free! Literally can't thank her enough, it gives us a base that's outside where I can relax and let him off and not have to worry that someone may pop around the corner or he could run off and attack someone, we can just chill, run around, play ball, be fools and not have a worry in the world, all while hearing random noises, dogs barking from inside etc so de-sensitising to the outside while safe!

She said we have many years of work ahead but there's hope because he's quick to learn and use his brain so we'll get there eventually I hope.

So ye, lots of work in the house to be done, then get a trainer to work as a control "stooge" as she put it to socialise him in the proper and controlled way he should be, I'm really hopeful!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

So, CAT session 2 was today.

Different dog, but same location (more or less). Last week took 47 trials to reach the point of following. This week took 15. We also spent a lot of time waiting on her to stop watching the kid kicking a soccer ball behind us and to acknowledge the dog in front of her. I don't mean stressed avoidance, I mean she was interested in that ball, darn it. 

Honestly, she woofed ONCE. There was some stuff that might have been avoidance but by and large she was relaxed, happy, and wanted to play (not so much with the other dog, but with me, though she did whine and try to crawl after him a couple of times). 

So, yeah. This is working.

ETA: I feel like I should also that her GENERAL reactivity is falling off. Not just to the dog in front of us but last week some dogs walking around and people kind of spooked her. This week, no. She was INTERESTED in the kids with the ball and the other kids screaming but she didn't lose it. It's reflecting in how she is around home and in the car, too. She's just much, much more relaxed about stuff.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Wow, I never got the notif for the post above mine. 

Sounds like a really good meeting, Gingerwrinklepup. How are things going now that you have more information under your belt?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I am doing a combination of LAT, Relaxation Protocol and LLW with Bucky. After he is through the first complete series I will go through it on walks but am just having him sit and wait and leaning away from him for right now. He seems a bit less jittery now but I am not going to pressure myself into making sure he is actually completely calm before moving on, I'd never get anywhere. As he moves through the various odd things one does while he is sitting on his mat he continues to get calmer.

We took a mile walk around the neighborhood without him blowing up the other day, or doing much lunging and he was able to sit/stay throughout the walk. Yesterday we took a day trip to a couple piles of rocks. He hadn't been on an excursion like that and did great in the car and after minor blow ups he settled back down to level 9.5 out of 11 fast. Of course he was at the end of the leash flailing around but paid attention when I needed to take time to clamber over and up rocks and down steeper bits. Too my complete amazement he actually LLW the last leg of the hike to the car on his own even though this was a loop trail and we hadn't been that way. His choice too, I didn't stop and wait for him to leave slack. He didn't react to trailered horses or poop like he did as we passed the stables the day before while he was in the trike basket, perhaps too much new was going on, not sure. I have been able to talk to people if they are far enough away without him reacting and he hasn't been blowing up at backyard dogs.

Sounds like CAT would be extremely helpful for him. He basically likes people and dogs but gets over the top at the blink of an eye. He's so little and cute people aren't worried about his behavior too much anyway but of course non dog people don't ever believe that cute dog wagging his tail at my side can turn into a frenzied monster if they so much as lean forward or look at him.


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## Dogsignalfire (Nov 17, 2015)

Lancer was extremely reactive (I think reactive is an understatement here) when he was 7 months~around 1.5 years old, mainly towards dogs but also towards certain people, children, anything with wheels- his reactivity towards dogs in particular is based in fear and a couple traumatizing experiences with dogs as a puppy that he did not bounce back from at all. We've worked with a few trainers in the past who both didn't manage to resolve his issue, tried behavior modification (but thinking back, the trainer was not half experienced enough for a case like Lancer, even though she technically knew "how to do the step by step", but was not flexible in altering the scenario/training based on the individual dog... or at least, not for Lancer), and some pretty basic conditioning with the other trainer who worked with mainly him and my mom for a few months. The 2nd trainer was also simply not experienced enough to realize that he needed a much, much greater "distraction/reward" for conditioning. She also commented, "Maybe he's just a jerk" when she was on the verge of giving up... basically not knowing what else to try. 

He's very much reliable in public now, as long as no dog approaches us too directly. Close situations like sitting on a bench with a dog walking by 4 feet in front of us will still put him on edge, but he is very good with staying under threshold if the other dog doesn't come over to us or make noise. He's very very good now, relative to how he was before.

I'm not sure if there's a technical term for it other than just straight up continuous conditioning. Lancer's case is much easier to solve, I think, because he's SO incredibly motivated and focused on the game of retrieving a ball that everything else around him, no matter how insane, takes little priority.  But only if he's actively playing long fetch. Just tossing a ball directly in front of him or nearby won't work, which is what the 2nd trainer tried- it wasn't active and motivating enough for him to keep his attention.

I ended up going to a huge nearby park to just play long fetch with him continuously, and he improved significantly over just a couple months. The setting was perfect, because the path most people take looped around us by a long distance, and we can stay very far away from his triggers, but still close enough for Lancer to know that they're there. Dogs and people and children would be walking around the path, but his intense focus on the game kept him way under threshold, but close enough for him to learn over long-term that they won't come bother/scare him even if he does not react... so learned in this way that he just needs to ignore him and focus on me/something else, no need to scream and snarl, and they won't look at him or come over either. The end result today is Lancer not even glancing at other dogs when on normal walks in public, essentially pretending that they don't exist LOL.

I guess there's a risk in this with other dogs, being off leash. This was only safe because I know my dog very well and can read where he is at below his threshold. We're never close enough for him to be worried, but just the distance where he notices that they exist but, "Pffff whatever, ball more important!"


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

I haven't posted on here for awhile, but I was just checking in and this thread is very interesting - so thanks for starting it OP! 

Murphy's reactivity toward other dogs while on leash started about 6 months after we adopted him and I believe it was partially to do with a bad experience he had with a family member's dog (Murphy was laying under the dinner table at our feet, family members dog decided he wanted to lay under there too and Murphy felt cornered so the two of them exchanged some barking and snapping). His initial reactivity during walks was just directed to one large black dog (that looked very much like the family member's dog he had a tussle with) that lived in our neighborhood. But slowly it expanded to almost all dogs we pass on walks that are medium/large in size. Small dogs he just gets excited to see. 

His reaction starts the SECOND the other dog comes into view. No matter how far away. Which makes keeping him under threshold very difficult, if not impossible. In fact, the best way we have learned to deal with his reaction (aside from going another direction or turning down another road whenever possible) is to jog toward (on the opposite side of the road)/past the other dog as quickly as possible. He calms down as soon as the other dog is in closer proximity (like on the other side of the road or trail). 

He was a very fearful dog when we adopted him from complete and total lack of socialization, so I know that this is fear based. Which is why I believe he calms down when the dog gets close enough and he doesn't sense any danger. He is also fine off leash with the majority of dogs (I think because he is free to investigate the other dogs when he feels comfortable) but we limit his off-leash interactions anyway. 

All in all, it has been quite the learning experience for us, but it is manageable. Alannah has never picked up on any of his reactivity.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Wow, I never got the notif for the post above mine.
> 
> Sounds like a really good meeting, Gingerwrinklepup. How are things going now that you have more information under your belt?


First few days were great, parents were away so I could manage him and do what I wanted. They came back and ruined everything... They're super noise sensitive so I can't ignore his attention seeking and if I do they won't and they'll give into it straight away. Also have no clue if they're shouting at him or doing things wrong when im not there also, I really don't trust them around him. For sure they refuse to do any confidence building via obedience training, I asked her to get him to do simple things like sit, down etc with a treat but she refused on the grounds she doesn't need to give him a treat because he'll do it without.... I just can't work with these people but I can't afford to move out either, it's very frustrating...

I've literally done all I can to try and fix this and the rest of my family refuse to pick up the rest of the slack despite them having the biggest problem with his behaviour.


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## KayaScout (Nov 13, 2015)

Just the thread I was looking for! I need some help with my puppy, Kaya.

She is an 8 month old BC mix. When she was real little, she loved people and would be so happy to see anyone. Now, she is very reactive with people. It Is pretty hit or miss outside of the house. If the person come within 30 feet of us, she will bark and bark and bark, and throw some growls in there. She generally tries to hide, she barks and tries to move away from the people/hide behind me. When in the house, it 100% certain she is going to bark. She wont let up for probably 30 mins, and is just generally anxious (up and down back and forth). 

The reason for my post is we had an interesting situation last night. We had 2 friends over and one of them is very afraid of dogs (we had no idea). Kaya was barking and growling and would not let up. Normally we keep her on her leash to meet someone and then once they are in and settled we allow her off the leash to accept them at her own pace. Usually this takes like 10 mins and then she is licking them and wants to play ball. But last night, we couldn't let Kaya off leash because our friend was way too afraid. This just stressed Kaya out more and it seemed way worse than it was. We ened up having to put her in the crate for the night. We foun dit very hard, for obvious reasons, to convince our friend that Kaya is a friendly dog and wouldn't hurt her.

Any advice on how to work on the reactivity to people? If we meet people on our walks that have a dog, Kaya is fine. She will not bark. But we are planning on moving to a very dog friendly city and plan to take Kaya out an about with a lot of people and want her to be able to feel comfortable and confidant. Any advice will help!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

This week's session was... rough.

It started out okay, in spite of the fact that the dog was a young standard poodle who was a lot more...dynamic than the other dogs have been. Then someone who knew the trainer come up from another direction with their dog. And after that another dog came up directly behind us. I don't know what the deal was - the park itself was dead, but either way the combination of dogs coming in from everywhere was just a lot for her to handle and we had much more actual reaction than we've seen in the previous couple of weeks. 

She was just super conflicted, too. Wanted to play, offered decent play behavior, then reacted. Just really confusing stuff and at times pretty hard to read because it was all jumbled up. I found it validating that the trainer had some confusion about what Molly was doing a couple of times. I mean - at least it's not just me who sometimes find Molly contradictory and confusing with the signals she's throwing, you know? Overall, I am getting better at reading her with this, just sometimes....

I'm realizing a few other things about her as we do this, and that info is helpful no matter what the ultimate outcome. 

Her entire general temperament is sharp, sharp, sharp. It's not just reactivity toward other dogs, she's sharp PERIOD, with everything, even when she's not actually reacting. She also has basically no resilience - and not just in the ability to recover from negative stress/events way. She doesn't come DOWN easily, at all, from any kind of excitement positive or negative. I guess I knew all of those things in theory, but they're so much more obvious doing this. 

I just don't necessarily what to DO with that information. That's probably going to be something I work to figure out.

And all that thinky stuff aside, this session wasn't horrible, especially since this was a young playful dog and last week's was the chillest, most oblivious, lump on a log steady dog I've ever met. She was eventually able to follow the helper dog. The dog did wind up 2-3 feet away from her without nonsense.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

KayaScout, read the sticky on reactive dogs at the top of this thread. Good stuff there. What I did with Max was shovel treats in him as soon as I saw a person. After a while I noticed he would see a person then look at me for a treat. He never did get good with strangers though, either shoveled cookies or kept him far enough so he felt safe, about 6' away. I'd wait in driveways, have him switch sides, hide behind bushes and parked cars to give him the space he needed to feel safe. In the house I put him in the back and when I could hear the barking change from *stranger alert* to _who's there, I want to visit_, I'd leash him and bring him in with cookies for good behavior. I don't trust dogs barking at me, don't blame your guest for not wanting to visit. Max never did more than bark but Bucky mouths gently a little and his mouth is full of very strong and sharp teeth. Max had a few cute dog tricks to show off, Bucky hasn't got any yet. That helps a bit I think, choose ones between you and her, don't involve your guests in case hard pawing/nudging puts people off.

Max and Bucky hadn't/haven't any resilience either. Must be a bit tough to be like that, everything new throws you for a loop.

Today I braved the usual around the block plus 1/4 mile down a main street with both dogs, We've been that way at least once but it's been a while. Worked LLW and a bit of relaxation P, mostly just lengthy sits to recover from serious pulling which means he is losing it. Saw a dead hawk and a plastic bag. Dogs didn't notice the dead bird but I sat on the low block wall for 5 minutes waiting for Bucky to recover from that bag, figured he could scream as much as he liked, as we were walking next to a noisy street anyway. Since the walk was in and out the dogs were able to LLW most of the way home. I picked Bucky up when one dog plus family passed us and the noise level was quite low considering all dogs were desperate to visit. I picked him up, that alone is huge. When he came here I couldn't so much as touch him.

I think he did well today, came home really happy but not over the top. It's driving me crazy that I cannot just walk where I like but better to give him lots of time to learn the neighborhood as he isn't going to learn it if he is in a panic.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly does have trouble with some new stuff (occasionally), but when I say lack of resilience I mean she doesn't recover when she is thrown for a loop . She really doesn't do it easily, without help, or for long time. If she's thrown, she STAYS thrown for quite a while and then everything else that's even a hard hits a billion times harder and that triggers stack a lot more easily. If she, I don't know, gets startled by a motorcycle roaring past in a parking lot, she's going to:

A-) Continue to have an issue with motorcycles for weeks or months unless specifically dealt with/shown it's okay and

B-) Hours later, will be more reactive toward things she usually isn't, because her stress level is still high. Maybe even DAYS later still be more reactive to stuff she's normally okay with because of said stress levels. Based on something that happened day before yesterday. 

I figure you know what I mean, but I wanted to explain anyway.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Bucky isn't actually as bad as that then. After his freakouts he is fine the next time he sees things except for horses and such. He was on edge the week following the day trip but not really awful.

A real breakthrough on Monday. I walked the dogs together for a mile, half the distance was new to him and he mostly remembered I was back there somewhere. He was actually calm enough that on the last block of the walk I had to stop and reward for LLW rather than stop and wait for him to remember he wasn't supposed to be at the end of the leash. I'd been working him alone as Ginger's presence doesn't help his behavior any and she just seems bugged by all the drama. Maybe I can start introducing new walks to him though it never gets boring walking the same area with a dog in training!

I cannot believe how well the relaxation protocol is going. Day 11 introduces the doorbell. He just couldn't do it in about 5 attempts so I dropped it and went to knocking, opening, talking then closing the door instead. The following session he was able to stay on the mat when I went out and rang the bell and tonight Ginger, who hasn't gone through all the sessions joined him. Since she broke the sit he did as well but in 5 reps both dogs were sitting on the mat when I was out of sight opening the door, stepping through, ringing the bell and returning. My daughter reports that Bucky did leave the mat, got to the edge of the living room rug then returned to the mat on rep#4 but he was quiet and not over excited. I am going to stick with day #11 at least once more and work on day #1 when out and about.

Not much exposure to humans lately but he has been calming down after barking at the neighbor quite nicely. He's been joining in when other dogs are alert barking though, hate that.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I decided to take dogs for a hike on New Year's Day which has got to be the busiest day of the year on trails around here. It went quite well. Bucky reacted strongly to dogs but calmed down fast and was able to sit as other hikers passed us. Rather than screaming until triggers were out of sight he stopped after they were a given distance away which seemed to get smaller as the hike progressed. A number of children politely asked to pet him but stayed away when I explained he was a bad dog that would bark really loud right in their faces. He was walking quite nicely with me, he'd go to the end of the lead but wasn't charging hard most of the time and spent less time hopping on his back legs than he has ever done during a hike. The strange sight of people walking on the road on the hill ahead didn't seem to faze him so much today. I extended the walk to new quite a bit today and he was fine with it. Usually new causes him to forget his manners but it didn't, no more lunging than usual. 

Took a couple of breaks during the hike as my back was hurting and just let him watch the world go by. I didn't react when he was screaming at dogs and stayed put if he was acting up. If a dog or group was passing I stepped off the trail so there was a good 6' between us and them. If a bush was near I hid behind it. Last bush I walked around Bucky was more interested in the gopher holes than the dog I was hiding from!

Last night he heard firecrackers and thought he probably ought to do something about it but when Ginger and I didn't react, he decided he didn't need to bark either. YES!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Snowball was very reactive when we got him, is now really only reactive if he is startled or if another dog reacts first, but unlike when we first got him it is easy-peasy to redirect his attention back to me... it was 3 years in the making, but he's now a very easy dog to walk. <3

Ida... not so much. She's only 10 months, still full of puppy brain, and to be honest I haven't worked on her reactivity much... plus she's still afraid of traffic noises. But yesterday she saw a dog on the other side of the street, and although she tried to run to it, she didn't immediately start barking and it was much easier to get her attention back than usual. Gives me a lot of hope that some of her earlier reactivity was just her going through a fear period (she would bark and back away from the other dog), and now it is mostly excitement. Here's hoping!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I told myself if Molly had not made noticeable progress at the start of this year we'd pursue meds. 

We're pursuing meds. 

Bottom line, we've been consistently working on this for more than a year now. Her quality of life is not horrible, but it's not what it could be, either. So - yeah. We're a couple of weeks out (at least) from the appointment, but something has to give.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I told myself if Molly had not made noticeable progress at the start of this year we'd pursue meds.
> 
> We're pursuing meds.
> 
> Bottom line, we've been consistently working on this for more than a year now. Her quality of life is not horrible, but it's not what it could be, either. So - yeah. We're a couple of weeks out (at least) from the appointment, but something has to give.


So the CAT stuff didn't work long term?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> So the CAT stuff didn't work long term?


Oomph. Not easy to answer. We ended up having to pause and are only just now getting back to it at all. Bottom line, it sort of helped in that it changed her BEHAVIOR but it didn't reduce her anxiety. So what I see now is more crazy use of appeasement/calming signals (to make the other dog go away/back off) or lying down and shaking instead of forward reactions (when she is scared, which is not every dog, but also is sometimes things NOT dogs). She's trying other stuff to make the dog go away but she's not less terrified when she's terrified. 

The hard part is, and was, that she's not consistent - eg: what scares her when, and it's based largely on trigger stacking (ie: two things were hard, number three she melts down - over like a WEEK - even if 3 is not usually an issue). And she's conflicted - so she wants to play but she's scared.

I just really, really feel like I have to get the fear out of the way before this is going to get any better with either learning more OR being able to recover, and even her fear isn't to like 'Dogs'. It's to whatever the heck she thinks is scary this week, whether it was scary last week or not.

I also really, really still love the protocol/method I just think she doesn't really have the resilience for it to get her where I want her on its own. Another dog who just had poor coping skills and needed another method of handling things? Absolutely.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Oomph. Not easy to answer. We ended up having to pause and are only just now getting back to it at all. Bottom line, it sort of helped in that it changed her BEHAVIOR but it didn't reduce her anxiety. So what I see now is more crazy use of appeasement/calming signals (to make the other dog go away/back off) or lying down and shaking instead of forward reactions (when she is scared, which is not every dog, but also is sometimes things NOT dogs). She's trying other stuff to make the dog go away but she's not less terrified when she's terrified.
> 
> The hard part is, and was, that she's not consistent - eg: what scares her when, and it's based largely on trigger stacking (ie: two things were hard, number three she melts down - over like a WEEK - even if 3 is not usually an issue). And she's conflicted - so she wants to play but she's scared.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I see exactly what you mean. She's changed what she's doing but she's not coping with it really at all. Just freaking out in a different way. I hope the meds are helpful! I know a lot of people who've had success.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I see exactly what you mean. She's changed what she's doing but she's not coping with it really at all. Just freaking out in a different way. I hope the meds are helpful! I know a lot of people who've had success.


Exactly. 

I'm hoping it helps, too. I'm also hoping I can convince them to GIVE us meds, since this is ultimately just our vet (there are no vet behaviorists in our STATE) and she's usually inclined to settle out with him pretty fast in the absence of other dogs around. I don't know, I guess we'll see what happens going forward. Nothing ventured nothing gained, anyway, it's not going to HURT and if it helps at all it's an improvement. 

Though I am hopeful. I know lots of people who have had success, too.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

That whole CAT stuff sounds very similar to "flooding" to me but rewards calming signals instead of getting the dog to really shut down. I work in a dog park and the amount of times calming signals works to stop another dog doing what it's doing very small anyway.
Have you seen this site http://careforreactivedogs.com/ ? I'm a memeber of a group on FB called "Reactive dogs" which seems very good, I'm yet to post but they support the methods on that site very much.

I think the CAT could be beneficial for teaching a dog communication but you need to get the positive association with the trigger going and then less anxiety/fear will surely follow?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh. Oh no. 

See, that's the thing. First of all it CAT absolutely negative punishment - scary thing goes away as 'reward' for engaging in behavior that isn't reactivity'. It's meant for nothing more or less than teaching the dog an alternative means of coping when reactivity has become a habit and the dog believes that reacting makes the thing go away - which is common in dogs reacting in situations where the trigger leaves anyway or they're pulled out to 'create distance'. 

But the rest? Been there, done that. With trainers, without. Dog's been having counter conditioning since she was 3 months old, she was reacting by 4 and at 5 when she was spayed they made us pick her up unconscious because she was flipping her crap. We've done LAT. We've done BAT. We've now down CAT (and had more success with it but as a means of reducing forward aggression and introducing her to other dogs than we did other methods). We've done counter conditioning. We've done desensitization. We did it all for um. 17 months now? Consistently. 

She's reacted to other dogs, cats, squirrels, but also magazines on the ground, shadows, people who live in the house with her, plastic bags, cars, trucks, motorcycles, livestock, leaves, flashes of light, and last night CAKE. Yep. CAKE. She freaked her crap out at a piece of cake. 

She's not unsocialized and lacking positive experiences which is what desensitization and cc deals with. She's SCREWED IN THE HEAD. I mean, I say that with love, but the dog is not okay and has not been 'normal' since she was about 14 weeks old.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And I feel I should say that the strength of my reaction here is related entirely to 'if you make experiences positive, surely they will be less afraid'. 

That... only works with a dog who has a normally working brain and the capacity to cope at all. All the positive in the world won't help if the dog can't form the positive association.

(ETA: And this dog was in weekly classes from 7-14 (or 15?) months. Group classes. She was able to be moderately successful there, but only in THOSE classes with THOSE dogs. Not a single bit of that was generalized and she actually got WORSE until the stuff from out of class was impacting her IN class and she rushed a dog toward the end).


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What does she do when she's afraid? Just trying to get a visual. 

Threads like these always make me wonder if Hank is reactive. He spooks though. Last night it was after standing next to sliding doors for about 15 minutes. THEN he noticed them and decided to run away. Weird cause he's seen them a million times before. 

We've been working on him in a pet store... I'm about to give up taking him into pet stores in the first place. He just shuts down in them almost completely.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> What does she do when she's afraid? Just trying to get a visual.
> 
> Threads like these always make me wonder if Hank is reactive. He spooks though. Last night it was after standing next to sliding doors for about 15 minutes. THEN he noticed them and decided to run away. Weird cause he's seen them a million times before.
> 
> We've been working on him in a pet store... I'm about to give up taking him into pet stores in the first place. He just shuts down in them almost completely.


Depends on the situation. Sometimes it's straight up typical reactivity - lunging forward, growling barking, hackles up stuff, but usually with her tail tucked - not always, just usually. 

Sometimes it's conflicted - like she'll playbow but growl and bark and have her tail tucked. 

Sometimes it's straight up obvious fear. Tail down, head down, ears back, shaking - with or without growling.

The brief spooking doesn't bother me, honestly. She has those moments but gets over it. This other stuff that makes her brain fall out and her fall apart - I don't like, in large part because I *know* it's miserable for her.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I do think Hank is probably a bit reactive. The shutting down sometimes is so freaking hard. In petco yesterday he would barely walk. Get him out the door and he'll play and be totally happy. 

Gah so weird. I spent 30 minutes shoveling treats at him inside. My trainer's advice was to stop taking him to pet stores. :/

Every now and then he gets ridiculously sensitive.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Oh yeh I get what you mean, if your dog doesn't have normal brain function as you can see and sounds like it then that's not going to work. My statement about the positive association was just in general, I wasnt undermining what work you've done in the past or if she's been socialised or not. From my experience of seeing your other posts it's obvious you know what you're doing with that kind of stuff. Sorry if I offended or upset ya!

I looked into CAT and I really wasn't a huge fan of it in theory because it works with dogs over threshold and their learning is impaired greatly but all dogs are different so don't blame you for giving it a go and making progress with your her.

I really wanted to try meds too but my vet behaviourist didnt rate them for my situation for some reason.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

For Molly.. I think because the reactivity is highly fear based that pursuing meds would be a very good idea. 

Kairi is very reactive, but hers is 90% of the time excitement based. I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be to work with highly fear based.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I'm an idiot.

For all my talk about training constantly in all situations I have missed a few big ones.

Yesterday a guy came over to ground a couple electrical outlets. Bucky was crated as usual. And screaming as usual.

After half an hour a very tiny light bulb went off over my head. 

Relaxation Protocol. 

Got out the cookies and did the usual with him crated. He was quiet for the rest of the time. I walked around the crate, treated after periods of standing in front of it, walked away and returned, went out of sight, talked, treated Ginger [who was annoyed at getting left out] and so on.

So next time I'll let him have a few minutes to get used to the new person in the house, do the protocol with him in a room out of sight but in full hearing then move the crate closer to the action as long as he is calming down.


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