# Outward pointing feet and hard surfaces?



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

As a puppy, I remember Kairi having fairly straight legs. As time went on, her feet (just the fronts) kinda turned into something like this:



Sometimes they don't look that bad and are almost straight, and other times they look worse depending on how she is standing. She is also very.. flexible? 

Anyways, I am quite aware that it could be genetic... but... I've always pondered if this could be the doing of her constantly being on hard surfaces. We have carpet, but the kitchen and living room are mainly wood. She prefers the hard surfaces and has since she was a pup.. probably because they are cooler. 

My question: Could this be the doing of the hard surfaces? 
My other question: Is this a problem for her joints? (we're doing sports)
Another question: Can I straighten them out with any kind of therapy/supplements/etc?

Yes I feel like a paranoid dog mom. Any feedback would be most awesome.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

made me go look at all my guys feet  I would suggest an orthopedic consultation for a complete answer about wear and tear on the body doing sports and if there is a way to correct the alignment if that is even necessary. I know with my llamas their front legs were all straight as babies, but one of them is really bow legged at the knees (very turned out) as an adult so not ideal for a work animal. It doesn't interfere with him being highly active, just not a candidate for pulling or packing..


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> made me go look at all my guys feet  I would suggest an orthopedic consultation for a complete answer about wear and tear on the body doing sports and if there is a way to correct the alignment if that is even necessary. QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I agree with this. I would have him checked on. The condition could be coming from the elbows, shoulders. It could also be how his legs are. It could also be in the bone growth or plates. I would have him checked by an ortho guy to be sure all is well.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

She doesn't look bad to me,I realized from looking at old photos of my childhood Malamute mix she had kind of off feet like that but even slightly worse,possibly genetic being she was part GSD. She never had issues with it and loved to pull carts,but if it makes you feel better get them checked up. I did not know dog anatomy as well back then,so perhaps I should have gone easier on her just in case. Plus she died early from organ failure at eight so hard to judge if she would ever get arthritis or issues at old age.

I don't feel just sleeping sometimes on the kitchen causes it,but it can depend how much they where on hard surfaces as a puppy. Once a adult I think their safer when it comes to that.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

That amount of turn out in the front is perfectly normal. If you look at the dogs who always stand with their front feet pointing straight ahead, when they move they tend to "toe in." Meaning that when they land on the front foot the toe is turned in. If you look at the dogs who toe out slightly when standing, they are more likely to land with the foot pointing straight ahead. When the foot is aligned properly during the impact of moving, the stresses and shocks are absorbed evenly. If you look at wolves and coyotes, they almost always turn out in front when standing. The position of the foot when moving (absorbing impact) is what counts when you think about soundness and future problems.

I've been showing dogs and a student of conformation and movement for 30 years. This has been a topic of discussion on show related boards and discussed in books such as "Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis." For dogs with a natural structure and movement, it holds true. It has absolutely been true with my own show dogs. My current girl always stands beautifully, but toes in when she moves. My previous girls with the perfect front movement tended to stand with their toes pointed out.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

samshine said:


> That amount of turn out in the front is perfectly normal. If you look at the dogs who always stand with their front feet pointing straight ahead, when they move they tend to "toe in." Meaning that when they land on the front foot the toe is turned in. If you look at the dogs who toe out slightly when standing, they are more likely to land with the foot pointing straight ahead. When the foot is aligned properly during the impact of moving, the stresses and shocks are absorbed evenly. If you look at wolves and coyotes, they almost always turn out in front when standing. The position of the foot when moving (absorbing impact) is what counts when you think about soundness and future problems.
> 
> I've been showing dogs and a student of conformation and movement for 30 years. This has been a topic of discussion on show related boards and discussed in books such as "Dog Locomotion and Gait Analysis." For dogs with a natural structure and movement, it holds true. It has absolutely been true with my own show dogs. My current girl always stands beautifully, but toes in when she moves. My previous girls with the perfect front movement tended to stand with their toes pointed out.


Hm. This is interesting. I've always thought that straight was better/normal. She does have a very nice trot and does appear to have straight feet during it. I'm always worrying about things most people probably would never notice. I've always had a ridiculous eye for small details. That's good to keep in mind because I might decide to try my hand at showing someday. 

I was mostly just worried that her feet were "too" pointed out and that it was my fault for letting her play on the hard surfaces too much. Nobody at the vet clinic seems alarmed, but I suppose I could see about an orthopedic consultant thing just to be safe? It doesn't seem to effect her any, and her elbows, etc are normal looking. It's just her front feet just kinda point out when she is standing.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

Samshine is right. Wild canids almost always toe out. This is because toeing out is more stable than having parallel feet. Try it yourself. Stand with your feet perfectly parallel and try leaning from side to side. You will wobble and have shaky balance. Then try the same thing with your feet toed out a little. You'll be much steadier.

Many breeds have been bred for many generations to have parallel feet. They are less stable when they stand, and they toe in when they move. This is one of those things that happens because of what humans think is pleasing to the eye. To us (generic us) it looks better to have perfectly straight parallel feet on a dog. Wolves and coyotes aren't bred by humans, and they don't care what they look like. So they have east-west fronts, narrow chests, cowhocks, etc. Doesn't hurt them, apparently, since they do the job they're supposed to do -- surviving with no help from us. But if a dog that looks like this enters the conformation ring, forget it. He'll be laughed out, and everyone will tell his handler the dog is a structural nightmare. Maybe so -- but that's a human opinion based on human likes and dislikes. It has nothing to do with what occurs in nature.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I was mostly just worried that her feet were "too" pointed out and that it was my fault for letting her play on the hard surfaces too much. Nobody at the vet clinic seems alarmed, but I suppose I could see about an orthopedic consultant thing just to be safe? It doesn't seem to effect her any, and her elbows, etc are normal looking. It's just her front feet just kinda point out when she is standing.


Absolutely nothing to worry about, save your money.  The real reason her toes point out is probably being narrow in the chest. Having a narrow chest is perfectly functional, so don't start worrying about that now  When people are breeding dogs for show, they like to have a broader chest but it's really just for aesthetics. Anyway, a narrow chest means the elbows naturally tend to go into and under the chest when they stand. That turns the toes out. It's nothing to do with the feet or pasterns at all.

How old is she? What tends to happen is that puppies who don't toe out much at eight weeks can start to do it more during adolescence. Because their chest is less developed during that stage of life. Then when they reach their full maturity the chest broadens a bit and the toeing out lessens. 

But if she is fully mature, still don't worry!! Trust me, there isn't anything functionally wrong with your dog. I've been involved in dog shows for a very long time, but I will be the first to admit that not everything that is desired in a show dog equals functionality.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I've also seen the vet about this because Ryker's toes point out like Kairi's do. The vet wasn't worried and said that they may or may not straighten out as he ages. From what I remember it's genetic and has nothing to do with the floor surface.

I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but Ryker is also super flexible and has a narrow chest.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

jade5280 said:


> I've also seen the vet about this because Ryker's toes point out like Kairi's do. The vet wasn't worried and said that they may or may not straighten out as he ages. From what I remember it's genetic and has nothing to do with the floor surface.
> 
> I don't know if it has anything to do with it, but Ryker is also super flexible and has a narrow chest.


Thank you! I think I'm less worried now. From what I could tell, most of her relatives are fairly straight footed, which is why I was a bit concerned. 

It's crazy how flexible she is with her wrists. Sometimes I call her a cat.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Thank you! I think I'm less worried now. From what I could tell, most of her relatives are fairly straight footed, which is why I was a bit concerned.
> 
> It's crazy how flexible she is with her wrists. Sometimes I call her a cat.


If her relatives are straight footed, I'm sure hers will straighten out. I think Ryker was around 6 months when I started to notice his feet. I haven't looked at them recently to see if they straightened out or not. I'll take a look tonight.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

samshine said:


> Absolutely nothing to worry about, save your money.  The real reason her toes point out is probably being narrow in the chest. Having a narrow chest is perfectly functional, so don't start worrying about that now  When people are breeding dogs for show, they like to have a broader chest but it's really just for aesthetics. Anyway, a narrow chest means the elbows naturally tend to go into and under the chest when they stand. That turns the toes out. It's nothing to do with the feet or pasterns at all.
> 
> How old is she? What tends to happen is that puppies who don't toe out much at eight weeks can start to do it more during adolescence. Because their chest is less developed during that stage of life. Then when they reach their full maturity the chest broadens a bit and the toeing out lessens.
> 
> But if she is fully mature, still don't worry!! Trust me, there isn't anything functionally wrong with your dog. I've been involved in dog shows for a very long time, but I will be the first to admit that not everything that is desired in a show dog equals functionality.


She is only 11 months, so I'm sure she still has some filling out to do. Her breeder does breed for versatility, but does show as well. She did say she almost kept her, because she was a nicely structured pup. Her littermates all had some very nice structure/movement, and the pictures/videos I see of them now are quite a bit different than Kairi. She is thinner, less fluffy and apparently less broad chested! Maybe she is just taking longer to mature.

She's on a S/N contract so she won't be showing for real, but I was thinking of altered conformation if she turned out nice for it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Agreed. It's very natural for dogs to toe out. Summer actually toes out a lot when standing and she's 10 years old and has always been very active and sound.

I'll have to try to find a picture.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Ryker is 11 months old as well. Just took this.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

samshine said:


> Absolutely nothing to worry about, save your money.  The real reason her toes point out is probably being narrow in the chest. Having a narrow chest is perfectly functional, so don't start worrying about that now  When people are breeding dogs for show, they like to have a broader chest but it's really just for aesthetics. Anyway, a narrow chest means the elbows naturally tend to go into and under the chest when they stand. That turns the toes out. It's nothing to do with the feet or pasterns at all.


This is exactly why. Lars is "eastie westie" and his feet point in opposite direction. He really doesn't have the chest that a male rottweiler should have and that's why his feet point in opposite directions. He did finish his UKC Championship because I would place his feet correctly to stack him and I more or less taught him to stand square when I said "stack" and he free stacks. If he's just hanging out...his feet fall pointing away from each other. 

Ocean on the other hand has a much wider chest....even at 1 year old, his chest was wider than Lars' at 5 years old. Ocean's feet face forward because of his wide chest. 

I totally wouldn't worry about it. Despite being eastie westie Lars has great movement and it hasn't hindered him in anyway.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

The turn out is what show folks call "easty-westy" and it's caused by faulty construction in the dog's front... (usually a narrow front, but not always) but nothing of consequence, health-wise! It's actually a pretty common fault in most breeds and is really hard to breed out, even in show stock... so I wouldn't worry about it at all.


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## Schnoozermum (4 mo ago)

Is this something to be concerned about on a 4 month old schnauzer puppy? She is my show prospect


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

This is an eight year old thread, and the original posters are no longer active on this forum, so you're unlikely to get replies here. I'm going to close this thread, but please post a new one about your pup, and our currently active members will help however they can!


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