# RAW diet questions



## McBeck (Mar 27, 2008)

I am in the beginning stages of researching raw and a I have a few questions. Unfortunately, the search feature won't allow words w/ fewer than 4 letters, so I apologize if these questions have been answered in earlier threads.

My puppy is just about 4 months old. Her ideal adult weight is 40-45lbs. She is currently 13lbs. I am thinking about starting her with whole eggs plus chicken necks, wings, and/or legs. Is this appropriate for her age or should I be thinking about grinding until she's older? If I give her a drumstick, should I expect her to eat everything or should I expect there to be leftovers? 

I'm reading that many people feed whole chix quarters or backs. Do these dogs actually eat the entire item including all of the bones? I guess I'm a little confused as to whether the bones are consumed or just gnawed on for a while. Also, I'm a little confused on what are good RMBs from other sources, such as pork, venison & beef. If I were to walk into my butcher's store, what exactly would I ask him for?

Lastly, I think I'll be facing an uphill battle with the rest of the family re: switching to raw. I've caught a few threads re: feeding raw and kibble, and I understand the kibble is much slower to digest. I am considering feeding raw in the morning and afternoon, and then kibble for dinner. This would give her about 12 hours to digest the kibble before having raw again in the morning. Will she still reap the benefits of raw, specifically for her teeth?

I'm currently feeding her Wellness Puppy kibble. She gets a spoonful of Wellness Whitefish & Sweet Potato mixed in w/ the kibble in the morning. She gets a kong frozen w/ either pumpkin or yogurt a couple of times each week. I am probably going to try a different kibble b/c she is so gassy she can clear a room - mind you this is with the windows open!

Any advice appreciated - thanks!


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

McBeck said:


> I am in the beginning stages of researching raw and a I have a few questions. Unfortunately, the search feature won't allow words w/ fewer than 4 letters, so I apologize if these questions have been answered in earlier threads.
> 
> My puppy is just about 4 months old. Her ideal adult weight is 40-45lbs. She is currently 13lbs. I am thinking about starting her with whole eggs plus chicken necks, wings, and/or legs. Is this appropriate for her age or should I be thinking about grinding until she's older? If I give her a drumstick, should I expect her to eat everything or should I expect there to be leftovers?
> 
> ...


http://rawfed.com/

a good place to start. 

my dog get a 6th of a chicken and a rotating series of side items..tripe, beef liver, venison, bison, rabbit....

variety is the key..

yahoo has a raw feeders group...check it out...

i'll film bolo's breakfast tomorrow and post it you would like...


----------



## gills (Mar 16, 2008)

Please be careful. There are a lot of people out there extolling the virtues of RAW, and I got sucked into it too. I ended up with a very sick dog and a lot of vet bills. Please don't give your dog chicken bones, no matter what anyone tells you. It's dangerous, and the likelihood of injuring your dog with them are very high.


----------



## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

gills said:


> Please be careful. There are a lot of people out there extolling the virtues of RAW, and I got sucked into it too. I ended up with a very sick dog and a lot of vet bills. Please don't give your dog chicken bones, no matter what anyone tells you. It's dangerous, and the likelihood of injuring your dog with them are very high.


That's unfortunate, but I know many people, myself included that feed raw chicken and have never had issues with the raw bones. If there are concerns about chicken bones, and you don't want to risk it, the meat/bones can be ground up. I think the main concern should be - does your dog chew it's food well, or is it a "gobbler"? Raw bones of any shape and size "can" cause problems if the dog doesn't chew them up well before swallowing them. And until you know if your dog chews or gobbles, he/she should either be supervised, or have the food ground up.

McBeck - I'd not feed your dog raw eggs on a daily basis, that's a bit much IMO. I personally don't feed raw eggs more than 3 times/week. If you're going to do raw, don't forget about organ meat too.  Though I wouldn't say it's as essential if you are doing raw and kibble, but a full raw diet, the organ meat is important. And I'm one of those who does the raw/kibble, but never together. I'm sure it's fine either way, kibble at night, raw in the morning, or kibble in the morning, raw at night.


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

gills said:


> Please be careful. There are a lot of people out there extolling the virtues of RAW, and I got sucked into it too. I ended up with a very sick dog and a lot of vet bills. Please don't give your dog chicken bones, no matter what anyone tells you. It's dangerous, and the likelihood of injuring your dog with them are very high.


I am sorry this happened to you. Fortunately there are thousands of other folks that have fed this way for years with no issue. 

McBeck - here are a couple of other good sites. 
http://www.rawlearning.com/
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

I feed my dogs chicken and the bones are very soft and edible, they should eat the whole thing. I wouldn't grind either - you will be losing out on the good jaw and teeth cleaning the dog gets from knawing on the bones. Other good meaty bones to get are pork necks, turkey necks, rabbits (whole), ox tails (either left whole or cut up in good size pieces).


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

one thing......DON'T THAW FOOD IN MICROWAVE!!!!!!! the only other case i've come across in two years of researching raw where eating bones caused vet visits, thawing in the microwave was the problem. the bones get partially cooked this way and will splinter.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

McBeck said:


> My puppy is just about 4 months old. Her ideal adult weight is 40-45lbs. She is currently 13lbs. I am thinking about starting her with whole eggs plus chicken necks, wings, and/or legs. Is this appropriate for her age or should I be thinking about grinding until she's older? If I give her a drumstick, should I expect her to eat everything or should I expect there to be leftovers?


She should eat everything, provided it's 'to her taste'. Not every dog takes to raw on the first go. Honey detests raw meat. It's a good idea to stick to chicken only for the first couple of weeks, since it's relatively bland and easy on the stomach. After her stomach settles (normal stools) you can start introducing new meats one at a time. 



> Lastly, I think I'll be facing an uphill battle with the rest of the family re: switching to raw. I've caught a few threads re: feeding raw and kibble, and I understand the kibble is much slower to digest. I am considering feeding raw in the morning and afternoon, and then kibble for dinner. This would give her about 12 hours to digest the kibble before having raw again in the morning. Will she still reap the benefits of raw, specifically for her teeth?


Do you have any specific questions about convincing your family to let you go raw? I had to deal with my own family (and friends) when I started Spunky's raw diet. But after her food allergies cleared up, and her coat and teeth condition improved, they stopped giving me trouble about it. 

Yes, feeding the raw/kibble diet will still be beneficial for your dog. Her teeth will benefit as long as you feed the bones whole and not ground up.

Here's a useful page - it's on BARF, but many of the FAQs are still relevant.

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#started


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

On DogF you can search the keyword BARF or Prey Model.

You'll come up with quite a bit.


----------



## McBeck (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks for the info. So far she is a chewer, not a gobbler, so I'm hoping that will help us transition safely. 

Is a chicken neck a reasonable meal for my puppy? Too much, too little? I realize I'll be wanting to add organ meat and other types of RMBs as we progress, but for starting off slow, I want to make sure I'm giving her a reasonable amount of one thing. It will make me feel more confident in determining whether she's full or displeased w/ her new food.


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Depends on the puppy. I tried giving Bo a chicken neck. and he tried to swallow it whole. He was only 5 pounds then. Now he's up to about 12 pounds and I give him a quarter and take it away when he's eaten about half. That way I now he can't try to swallow it whole and he's learned to chew. Tonight it's feet and necks so we'll see how he does again.

How old is your puppy and how much does he weigh?


----------



## gills (Mar 16, 2008)

> Is a chicken neck a reasonable meal for my puppy?


For heaven's sake, NO!!! 



Yes, you'll go ahead and do it of course. There are an awful lot of "true believers" out there, telling you to ignore common sense and the advice of your veterinarian, who apparently doesn't know anything about nutrition but will be the one you'll run to when trouble starts. And you are going to feel very very badly about causing your dog pain and maybe serious injury, not to mention paying the vet bills. If it doesn't happen to you, count yourself fortunate but foolish.

Lordy, I get angry at people who push this diet. It's bloody irresponsible.


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

My vet not only ok'd my raw diet, she's VERY impressed with the overall health improvement in all 7 of my dogs since starting it. Granted, we went from pedigree to homecooking and raw. 

The only person with a problem here is you gills. 

I'm not "pushing" it simply relating my own personal experiences. Why don't you do the same and let the OP make up their own mind?

It's a free country. Last I checked anyway.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

My vets office of the 7 vets, 4 switched to raw after seeing the over all health of my dogs. As a matter of fact- 2 specialist that knew hottie- when we were told at 2 years old he would not make 5 and lived to 9 and half contributed his longer life to raw diet specifically chicken cartiledge. 
I am reading so many myths on raw I had to stop reading... Remember- when you feed raw- never warm it- EVER.. it defrosts at room temp. Second- remember over half is meat- not raw bone to keep things moving. If a dog caught a bunny etc- it would eat it- meat, guts, bone etc.. Keep the diet baleneced.. I would never feed kibble if my life depended on it for any length of time. At least I know what I put in the bowl the quality and exactly what it is.. ( getting off my soap box before I go totally off..)


----------



## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

Since your pup is a chewer and not a gobbler then chicken necks should be fine starting out. If you are worried about the bones you can smash up the chicken necks. I would just give one whole egg onces a week.

I have found out the best way to smash up the necks is to freeze them a little and then smash them up with a hammer.

I have two mini Dachshunds that weigh seven and nine pounds and they go to down on chicken backs.

You know what gills every time someone starts asking about a raw diet you start this.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

luv4gsds said:


> Since your pup is a chewer and not a gobbler then chicken necks should be fine starting out. If you are worried about the bones you can smash up the chicken necks. I would just give one whole egg onces a week.
> 
> I have found out the best way to smash up the necks is to freeze them a little and then smash them up with a hammer.
> 
> ...


 Yea I ground mine up too when the first start.. And uh thought the same thing- gills doesnt have a clue! I have been feeding raw since 1984. My dogs have been healther, less problems etc. It only takes planning to make sure you have defrosted what you need to do this.. At this point- its old hat.. And gills- ever lost a dog from bloat on Kibble??? I have.. Ever have a dog with skin allergies from preservatives??? I have- until I started feeding raw.. 
Here is the bottom line for me- while though raw- if its good enough for me to eat, my dogs will eat the human grade food. I am not feeding my dogs kibble which has molded rendered grains, cancerious tumors hidden as meat meal, every perservative know to man kind- and actually they do not have to list it unless they add it- so if they buy their " meat " from a rendering plant it can God knows what but they do not have to list it.. And WHY- you may ask???- the reason is in the US we do not " eat dogs" so it doesnt matter what goes into the food. Its been a long standing joke in the kibble world of " you can take a leather boot, add oil- and get 25 percent protein- 15 percent fat.." Is it digestable- hardly but fits the bill of a accepted food. Its only since the recalls people are looking at what goes into pet foods. . ( man- ... jeeeeeeeeeeeez...)..



gills said:


> For heaven's sake, NO!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU have no clue what you are talking about.. If you dont know- stay out of it, or read and learn..


----------



## gills (Mar 16, 2008)

> The only person with a problem here is you gills.


Actually, I'm not. I'm the only one to speak up. I wish someone had the energy and courage to share more balanced information when I was investigating this diet, but all I found were people praising it. Only AFTER my dog became very ill did people share their bad experiences with me - privately! And that is because the "true believers" jump on anyone who disagrees and shut down any open sharing of information on the risks, exactly the way you are here. 



> Why don't you do the same and let the OP make up their own mind?


And how am I not "letting" the OP make up her own mind? She can do whatever she pleases with the information she is given.

It is VERY important that people be aware that there are severe health risks in feeding a dog raw chicken bones. If the OP decides to go ahead and ignore those risks, then that's her decision. 

I stand by my statements You and others who encourage people to give their dogs raw chicken bones ARE irresponsible, and you are fortunate that it hasn't harmed your dogs. This will not be case for everyone, and frankly it's playing russian roulette with a dog's health to do it.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

gills said:


> Actually, I'm not. I'm the only one to speak up. I wish someone had the energy and courage to share more balanced information when I was investigating this diet, but all I found were people praising it. Only AFTER my dog became very ill did people share their bad experiences with me - privately! And that is because the "true believers" jump on anyone who disagrees and shut down any open sharing of information on the risks, exactly the way you are here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I dont think you have a clue how to do raw. And obviously mislead- and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt.. If you do not know how to feed it- I would suggest you stay out of it ...


----------



## gills (Mar 16, 2008)

> I dont think you have a clue how to do raw. And obviously mislead- and that is giving you the benefit of the doubt.. If you do not know how to feed it- I would suggest you stay out of it ...


And I would suggest that YOU don't have a clue what I know or don't know. So I suggest that you stop shutting down anyone who doesn't happen to agree with you. It's very suspicious when someone believes something so strongly that they can't stand dissenting opinion. Makes me wonder what they are so afraid of...


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

okay gills- how did you defrost your meat?


----------



## gills (Mar 16, 2008)

> okay gills- how did you defrost your meat?


THIS is your response??? 

No thanks. Not playing games with you tonight.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

gills said:


> THIS is your response???
> 
> No thanks. Not playing games with you tonight.


 I figured.. If you didnt do the meat right it will a problem.. Just answer my question- how did you defrost what you fed your dogs.. ( and I got the kong bell ready..)


----------



## gills (Mar 16, 2008)

I'm telling people about how dangerous it is to feed a dog raw chicken bones and you ask me how I thaw meat? Weird. Like I said, I'm not playing your games. Good night.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

gills said:


> I'm telling people about how dangerous it is to feed a dog raw chicken bones and you ask me how I thaw meat? Weird. Like I said, I'm not playing your games. Good night.


 I am not playing a game- if you do not know how to feed raw, to do so is dangerious.. No different than letting a dog eat as much kibble as they want. I dont think you know how to feed raw at all.. Just answer my question- how did you feed your dog- step by step.. I bet it breaks the top " do not do" list without a doubt..


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

BMom, I'd be interested in your do not do list as you've been feeding successfully for so long. No such thing as too much information. IMO

It may also be interesting to the OP. (nudge)


----------



## McBeck (Mar 27, 2008)

I definitely want to make sure I go about doing this the right way. I realize thawing has to be done in the fridge and not w/ hot water, microwave, etc. I am considering buying smaller qtys so i can keep it fresh in the fridge rather than freezing in the first place. 

My puppy is 4 months old and about 12.5lbs. Her ideal adult weight is 40-45 lbs. If I've done the math right, I need to feed her about 12oz each day if I don't feed kibble. I plan to start w/ half raw and half kibble, so that will be about 6oz raw. I'm thinking about a neck or leg in the morning and kibble at night to get started. 

BorzoiMom - can you give me some advice re: avoiding the "do not do" list? I'm not finding much on the "do not do," but I am finding a lot of "must do" info that is starting to overwhelm me. I'm hoping the "don't do" list is shorter. LOL


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Ok well Bo is 12 pounds right now and is getting the evililent of a chicken thigh 3x/day. I mix it up and they also get home cooked, but I either feed homecooked, or raw. I don't mix them. I also generally do 3 or 4 feedings in a row of raw(like two days) and then 8 or 9 days of homecooking.

When I first started raw I was racked with nerves and had sleepless nights thining of perforated intestines.

Now that I've been doing it for nearly a year, it's much easier. and quite flexible. Even my old 11 year old Rottie has benefited. Her arthritis is SO much less. She goes up and down the stairs easier, and gets up and down easily even though her hips are not good. 

Unlike gills, I'm not _pushing_ anything, just giving you my experiences. MY dogs do well on what I do for them. Raw isn't for everybody and it's not for every dog either.

If you try it and can't deal with it for one reason or another, there's no shame in switching back to kibble. or doing what I'm doing and rotating a combination of two or three methods. IMO

Another trick is to portion and freeze all in one day and just take out the next day's portion for that meal when you are feeding the current one, ensuring you have 24 hours of thawing time.

Brite day seems to really have the portioning rotating system down to an easy to learn way. Try researching some of BD's posts.

Have you looked at the stickys up top in the food forum? there's a good vieo there as well as other threads on raw.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Dogs can die from bloat or contamination on commercial kibble. And dogs can die from perforations/impactions or improperly obtained/prepared (heavy bacteria load) raw food. Either way, commercial or raw, you don't have much control over the situation. What I do have control over with feeding raw is the quality of the food being put into their diet. Short of satnding n the manufacturing plant and reviewing the QC testing, I really can't be sure of what is going into commercial kibble that I buy. And certainly after the last go 'round of contaminated dog food, I no longer blindly trust. I prefer to limit my dogs' exposure to commercial food.

I have been feeding raw to my three dogs for a few years now.

Initially we started because one dog had not been thriving for her first five years of life on commercial food. After several food switches the vet suggested trying raw. So it wasn't his first option and very close to his last suggestion. However, that was a few years ago. Now he and his new associate have been very impressed with the results they've seen and regularly suggest a raw diet for those owners who are interested in it. And I can attest to the fact because the butcher I use for many of my products tells me that not a week goes by that a few people haven't come in to buy stuff for their dogs. 

That being said, I did a lot of research on the subject. In addition, since I spent most of my career as a medical biochemist, I wanted to be sure that I was feeding the dogs a healthy diet. So I did the same thing as when I decided I wasn't feeding commercial baby food to my daughter and the same as when my husband had a metabolic disorder that caused us to significantly modify his diet, and ours. Many of the sites I felt were important in getting me started are listed in my post on the raw feeding sticky at the top of the food forum. 

As far as needing to feed whole bones for clean teeth, I find that to be a myth. The dog that started us feeding raw came to us missing many teeth from severe dental disease. So when I considered raw for her it had to be ground. She used to require a dental cleaning every 6 months and daily tooth brushing. Now she hasn't had a dental in 3 years, and still going strong. I believe the dental plaque issue is more a factor of carb load in a diet rather than bone crunching. Carbs break down into sugars which then feed the bacteria that cause plaque formation. Just my theory from observation.

Since I am not a buffet line, all of our three dogs are fed the same raw diet. My allergenic dog can now eat all meats (unable to digest red meat kibbles), she has not needed a dental, her broken coat is now full and shiny, and her overall general activity has skyrocketed. Her littermate, who we acquired last year, came to us in good overall health but had very bad dental disease too. Since switching to raw her dental situation has improved dramatically and her activity level has increased as well. The third dog was only a year old when we started on raw. She was a very picky kibble eater, sometimes going 2-3 days without choosing to eat a meal. Her coat was nice but not great. Now she waits patiently on her eating rug as soon as she hears us take out the food box. And her coat is long, thick, and shiny. 

Even with the visual results I still wasn't convinced that I could possibly be doing the best job with raw. After all, someone once said that no one can do as good a job as a company that spends all of its time and money on making dog food. So I had blood and urine specimens run on all three dogs after 18 months on raw. Their chemical results proved to me that they are all doing great, and the two older dogs are doing better than their pre-raw results showed. I also record weights each month on each dog. At their annual exam last month a new vet (our previous vet recently retired) remarked how healthy the older dogs' vision and hearing is for their age. He was also impressed with the progress on their dental disease. And he is pleased with the regular eating habits of the younger dog. Our geriatric cat has been eating raw as well...absolutely no indication of old age and doing great. I guess in addition to time and money making food, the commercial food companies spend a ton on advertising and marketing. 

So, if I had a puppy I wouldn't hesitate to start her on raw. I think chicken necks are fine. And if it gives you the willies to feed whole bones, well then have the butcher grind a dozen chickens or a case of necks for you each month. 

What I have learned is important with feeding raw is to strive for many things over time...variety, amount/meal, balancing ingredients. But this comes with time. I would start a dog out on chicken for at least two weeks, just trying to balance the C ratio with meat to bone. Stools are a good indicator and when you have achieved balance, then move on to introducing other species of meat as well as organs and anything else you are going to feed. And for a puppy, be sure that you are feeding enough to maintain good weight increase and growth. If the dog is happy and active, and the ribs can be felt with moderate pressure...then you're good to go.

Sample diet for my crew is two meals per day. One meal is always ground whole (guts, gizzards, bone...and I throw in extra organ meat just to be sure) chicken(you could do turkeys), and the other meal is always boneless muscle meat supplemented with ground eggshells for the proper C ratio. I give raw egg 1-2 times per week, add salmon or fish oil as often as I remember to do it, include one fish meal per week, and they may get ground fruits and vegetables as they are available from human leftovers. Dogs cannot break down the cell walls of plant matter so it is important to grind those products so that the dog can obtain nutritional benefit from them. Otherwise it just counts as fiber. My dogs do not get grains as they are toy breeds and constantly battle the weight factor. I haven't seen a need to include carbohydrates in their diet, instead prefering to maintain a bit higher fat content to provide necessary energy and growth. Eventually un-used carbs store as fat anyway. 

On the other hand I am not unreasonable about raw. We have someone coming to take care of the animals for 5-6 weeks while we vacation this summer. The dogs will transition to a high quality kibble during that time, as they have done while we traveled in the past. They will be a bit chubbier when we get home (even the best kibble is going to have 40-50% carbs) but that will be easily remedied with an increase in exercise and a decrease in carbs when returning to their raw diet. 

My bottom line is that I don't completely trust companies producing commercial dog foods and I know that I can control the resources going into a home prepared diet. So I choose to limit exposure to commercial foods and prepare a diet from scratch as often as possible. Just as in humans, our family chooses to limit exposure to fast food and processed foods, choosing instead to eat a diet high in raw fruits/vegetables with a small amount of high quality protein, limiting our calorie intake.


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Now that was NEAT.LOL I simply mention your name and you appear. Do you live in a bottle?

Well written post BTW.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Yes! You know how it is with the mods around here...we just float around waiting for opportuinty! 

Heck, I'm such a slow typist, I must have been typing that response for a half hour while you posted ahead of me! 

Thanks for the pat on the back on raw feeding. It's just that I'm a bit more 
anal(ytical) than most and have the resources to research these types of things.


----------



## heidiann (Feb 3, 2008)

ChrissyBz said:


> My vet not only ok'd my raw diet, she's VERY impressed with the overall health improvement in all 7 of my dogs since starting it.
> 
> BMom, I'd be interested in your do not do list as you've been feeding successfully for so long. No such thing as too much information. IMO


Our vet didn't ok the diet, but they didn't shun it either. They couldn't after they noticed the change between Onyx's visit (for hairloss and constipation...from chewing on a "smoked" knucklebone...yeah, we learned our lesson) last year and her recent visit...so they happily said, carry on!

I'd also be interested in a do not list...since we're new to this raw thing!



briteday said:


> My bottom line is that I don't completely trust companies producing commercial dog foods and I know that I can control the resources going into a home prepared diet. So I choose to limit exposure to commercial foods and prepare a diet from scratch as often as possible. Just as in humans, our family chooses to limit exposure to fast food and processed foods, choosing instead to eat a diet high in raw fruits/vegetables with a small amount of high quality protein, limiting our calorie intake.


AMEN AMEN and AMEN to over half of your post, but to the paragrah I quoted especially!!

We lost 2 cats to the 2006 Diamond recall. I NEVER want to go through that again. It was horrible.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html/...?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&a=0939165317&*entries*=0


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

gills said:


> Actually, I'm not. I'm the only one to speak up. I wish someone had the energy and courage to share more balanced information when I was investigating this diet, but all I found were people praising it. Only AFTER my dog became very ill did people share their bad experiences with me - privately! And that is because the "true believers" jump on anyone who disagrees and shut down any open sharing of information on the risks, exactly the way you are here.


Gills, instead of bashing the diet, maybe you could share with us how your experience led you to believe what you do now about the raw diet. What happened?


----------



## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

My dog doesn't touch raw chicken or raw turkey drumsticks but he likes turkey necks and anything raw beef. I give him beef rib backs. 
He has gotten very sick on raw chicken so I don't give it to him and he would not take it anyways. He doesn't seem to really like raw poultry. 
Once I gave him a beef femur bone but it gave him bloody stool and I freaked out. I felt so bad. The vet said it was a cut on the outter rectum,possibly from passing part of a bone. I have also seen him throw up a large bone fragment. I read that the bone should break down or soften up when it is being digested so I thought that bone he threw up would be soft. But when I picked it up it was very hard and sharp. 
I still give him beef backs but I always monitor his eatings and take the bones away once they look too small for gnawing.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Gills, instead of bashing the diet, maybe you could share with us how your experience led you to believe what you do now about the raw diet. What happened?


 And how did you prepare the diet..


----------



## cascabel (Sep 25, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> And how did you prepare the diet..


I don't think you are going to get an answer unfortunately because it is clear from past posts that this person refuses to see that they didn't know what they were doing. 

You’ve even had a similar conversation with Gills before (http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/25168-sick-doggie-no-more.html) That one also ended with Gills disappearing/refusing to admit his mistakes...which are hinted at throughout some of his posts regarding raw feeding. 

Below are a few exerpts with a couple of problems highlighted. It's a shame to see someone running around trying to give raw a bad reputation just because they didn't know what they were doing!  



> 03-22-2008, 02:15 PM
> Turbo's first raw meal - it made me laugh
> ________________________________________
> This is a rescue dog who survived as a starving stray on the mean streets of Pamplona. She'll eat ANYTHING... including a disgusting black rotted banana peel off the side of the path earlier today, before I could stop her.
> ...





gills said:


> I started feeding Turbo raw on Friday (3 days ago), and today I have a sick little dog on my hands. She has vomited and has diarrhea, the last bout was very slimy with flecks on blood on it. She extremely quiet and depressed, which is SO unlike her I am alarmed.
> 
> No more raw for her... I just hope she recovers quickly and we're not facing some big vet bills.
> 
> I'm not criticising anyone who does this. It's just me. I have to go with my instincts on what feels right for my dog, and I guess I had some reservations with raw to begin with. I don't feel comfortable sticking this one out.





gills said:


> *I started her cold turkey with morning meal, she had eaten a kibble meal 13 hours earlier. *
> 
> All my instincts tell me this diet isn't right for her... at least giving her bones to eat. She survived on the streets in Spain for months before we got her last november. When I gave her the raw chicken thighs, she was kind of enthusiastic; the second day, not so much. Yesterday, I had to encourage her and she ate it only because she trusts me (wow I feel bad about that  )
> 
> ...


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

thank you for that reminder..


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Awh, yes.  Oh well...


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

LMH

I don't feed weight bearing bones from large species to my dogs, and let them eat the bones. I might let them gnaw on one for recreation, but even then you might risk chipping a tooth. Weight bearing bones are very dense and thus, hard. I don't believe most of us who feed raw would give a beef femur bone as a meal. About the hardest thing I give the dogs is a turkey thigh. And even then I pound the heck out of it with a mallet to break it up. My little dogs get a beef back rib bone as a meal once per week to give them something to gnaw on. But I throw them away after a few days as they become brittle as they dry out.

As far as raw poultry, I think these days you have to be reading labels of what you are buying. I only buy the poultry without added water and salt. Some of the poultry product on the market now has up to 15% added salt and water. Yuk! Maybe you might try a different brand to offer your dog just to see if he has any added interest. 

And even though most of us use poultry as a mainstay in the diet, mainly due to cost, it is certainly not required. My dogs don't like turkey much so I only buy it when it is incredibly cheap around the holidays. And although they like organ meat from most animals, they will not touch lamb organs. So I just don't buy that. 

Also, I might be a little weirded out about feeding raw if I didn't hear my dogs crunching bones with their molars. I have itty bitty dogs and the most I've ever had them vomit back up was a spoonful size of small...actually tiny bone bits during the first few days on raw. I think I fed too much bone the day before and they were unable to digest that much early on. If you are getting bone fragments back that are any larger than something crushed with a mallet then your dog isn't chewing them enough before swallowing.

I found early on that the dogs were so excited about eating that they didn't spend enough time crunching. So I started taking them for a walk before their meals and doing some training along the way. I rewarded with bits of biscuits or other food rewards. Then we would come home, wait an hour or so, and then feed. They were more relaxed about eating and not ravenous. I have also found with multiple dogs that it often helps to give each their own space to eat so they don't inhale their food for fear of the others stealing it. One of my papillons recently looked like she was having a seizure on the floor, wriggling around and gagging. A few seconds later she chucked up a huge (for her) chunk of boneless meat that she swallowed in an attempt to keep the other dogs from getting it. Even after a few years of feeding raw I still feel it is best to be in the room or on the patio with them when they eat, even if just to make sure they are crunching, not gulping and no stealing is going on.


----------



## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

gills said:


> For heaven's sake, NO!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I feed my Betty Raw chicken often, and have had zero problems. And am starting with Nell, so far Nell has only had beef ribs. The only thing that I'm debating on stopping the chicken with Betty is it gives her some gas. Other than that, no issues with bones.



gills said:


> Only AFTER my dog became very ill did people share their bad experiences with me - privately!


It's kind of hard to believe then that nobody else would speak up. You mean to tell us that they would only speak to you privately and not openly on the forum? I don't know a whole lot of people who would do this, it it were several people, at least one would have come out in the open, and most likely several would have.


----------



## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

gills said:


> Please be careful. There are a lot of people out there extolling the virtues of RAW, and I got sucked into it too. I ended up with a very sick dog and a lot of vet bills. Please don't give your dog chicken bones, no matter what anyone tells you. It's dangerous, and the likelihood of injuring your dog with them are very high.


Sigh... This again?

There are a lot of people out there extolling the virtues of tennis balls, and I got sucked into it too. I ended up with a very sick dog and a lot of vet bills after he got it lodged in his throat. Please don't give your dog tennis balls no matter what anyone tells you. It's dangerous, and the likelihood of injuring your dog with them are very high, as my isolated incidence clearly proves.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

trumpetjock said:


> Sigh... This again?
> 
> There are a lot of people out there extolling the virtues of tennis balls, and I got sucked into it too. I ended up with a very sick dog and a lot of vet bills after he got it lodged in his throat. Please don't give your dog tennis balls no matter what anyone tells you. It's dangerous, and the likelihood of injuring your dog with them are very high, as my isolated incidence clearly proves.




Very nice, TJ


----------



## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Shaina said:


> Very nice, TJ


I'm not joking! I really had a dog choke on a tennis ball! I think Oprah did too or something like that. Clearly everyone should stop using tennis balls for fetch.

Clearly.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

trumpetjock said:


> I'm not joking! I really had a dog choke on a tennis ball! I think Oprah did too or something like that. Clearly everyone should stop using tennis balls for fetch.
> 
> Clearly.



I told my friend about this thread and she wanted me to tell you her story.

her dog harley was fed raw by his breeder. melissa bought him when he was 4 months old. she's a vegitarian and had trouble with the idea of handling raw meat so she decided on kibble. she bought him some high quality kibble, timberwolf I think, and set him out a heaping bowl the first night he came home and went to watch some tv. she walked into the kitchen 5 minutes later to find her puppy on the floor, not breathing.

to make a long story short, harley had to have surgery to remove the kibble from his throat. 

clearly kibble shouldn't be fed...ever...


----------



## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> clearly kibble shouldn't be fed...ever...


Clearly...


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

gills said:


> For heaven's sake, NO!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Huh? So dogs never get sick from commercial dog food?  My Uncle/Aunt lost their dog because of tainted dog food. The vet could not save him. 

Raw is dangerous

Commercial dog food is dangerous

So what are dogs supposed to eat?

I guess you are unaware of the vets who feed raw?

Your post really don't make sense.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

( mutters..) I think gills works for a dog food company..


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I told my friend about this thread and she wanted me to tell you her story.
> 
> her dog harley was fed raw by his breeder. melissa bought him when he was 4 months old. she's a vegitarian and had trouble with the idea of handling raw meat so she decided on kibble. she bought him some high quality kibble, timberwolf I think, and set him out a heaping bowl the first night he came home and went to watch some tv. she walked into the kitchen 5 minutes later to find her puppy on the floor, not breathing.
> 
> ...


That is sad. At least Harley survived. My friend who was a breeder (they passed away) had a dog die when she choked on the kibble. It got stuck in her airway and she died face down in her bowl. Another had a dog die of bloat I think. The dog was on its back legs up, like you would think on a cartoon. DH is the one who first saw her like that.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> clearly kibble shouldn't be fed...ever...


I think it's pretty obvious that by feeding our dogs we are exposing them to all sorts of hazards. The only way to avoid these hazards is to prevent our dogs from gaining access to any food that is either raw or cooked, meat- or plant-based, or kibble.


----------



## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

I just brought Rocky outside and he started coughing up the grass he was trying to eat. Clearly you shouldn't take your dogs into the grass to pee. Ever.

edit -- ok ok... I'm done now. You get the point.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Oh I forgot to say....

I have a pup who is 12.5lbs right now. She eats about 12-13oz a day. She is eating mainly chicken but also antelope, deer, ect like the rest too. She gets a little egg blended in and some liver or heart too. She is very healthy, growing properly and has nice muscle tone. She is active and playful. You just need to have a meal plan.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Shaina said:


> I think it's pretty obvious that by feeding our dogs we are exposing them to all sorts of hazards. The only way to avoid these hazards is to prevent our dogs from gaining access to any food that is either raw or cooked, meat- or plant-based, or kibble.


clearly the only safe dog food is specially formulated out of recycled plastic and granite dust.

=p

I think the moral of harley's story goes something like this:

he had eaten raw all his life. he didn't know how to eat the kibble and wolfed it down far too fast and it got stuck in his airway.

melissa says she probably should have supervised him carefully through his first few meals of the completely alien food. same goes for thos transitioning to raw.

when I switched bolo I had to watch her like a hawk the first few weeks. she would try to swallow fairly large pieces of bone without chewing and I would have to stick my hand in her mouth, pull it out and MAKE her chew it carefully. she figured it out after a while.

you get the idea....



Spicy1_VV said:


> That is sad. At least Harley survived. My friend who was a breeder (they passed away) had a dog die when she choked on the kibble. It got stuck in her airway and she died face down in her bowl. Another had a dog die of bloat I think. The dog was on its back legs up, like you would think on a cartoon. DH is the one who first saw her like that.


yeah she had to take him to the e vet which is like 10 times as expensive as the regular vet. that added to his pain meds, hospital stay and the time where his stitches opened and he had to go back, she was looking at almost 10thou of vet bills. he eats raw now...I go across the street and chop up her portions for her once a week.


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

> I go across the street and chop up her portions for her once a week.


Will you be my friend too.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ChrissyBz said:


> Will you be my friend too.


I totally would, my family are farm folks and i've seen quite a few chickens get their heads cut off headed to the stew pot, it doesn't bother me.

but belize is a bit of a walk from raleigh north carolina. =)


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

LOL, watching the weekly stewpot beheadings were big entertainment where I grew up.

I just meant that you being willing to do that weekly implies good freindship qualities.

BTW I have really good friends that live in Raleigh. He's in charge of the botany at the Natural Science museum there.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ChrissyBz said:


> LOL, watching the weekly stewpot beheadings were big entertainment where I grew up.
> 
> I just meant that you being willing to do that weekly implies good freindship qualities.
> 
> BTW I have really good friends that live in Raleigh. He's in charge of the botany at the Natural Science museum there.


I try my best. =) 


SMALL WORLD! my mom works part time there!


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

REALLY?

Does she know someone who used to live in Belize there? He's a REALLY good personal friend. I even lived in his house for 9 months after he and his wife moved up. He's been there from the beginning of the arboretum(i think that's what it's called) It's where that do all the butterfly and bird stuff. I KNOW there's some Belizean plants growing there. so he's prolly a fixture.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ChrissyBz said:


> REALLY?
> 
> Does she know someone who used to live in Belize there? He's a REALLY good personal friend. I even lived in his house for 9 months after he and his wife moved up. He's been there from the beginning of the arboretum(i think that's what it's called) It's where that do all the butterfly and bird stuff. I KNOW there's some Belizean plants growing there. so he's prolly a fixture.


i'll ask her about it. =)


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Cool.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

ChrissyBz said:


> BMom, I'd be interested in your do not do list as you've been feeding successfully for so long. No such thing as too much information. IMO
> 
> It may also be interesting to the OP. (nudge)


 Sorry for the delay in this post Chrissy. Its been a long weekend of projects and finally things are back to normal. 
Anyway- list of " do nots" when feeding raw. Ironically some of these things apply to kibble as well ( noted with an astrix *) 
1. When starting raw, keep the new additions slow and one at a time. This will help rule out any food allergies. Additions should be only one at a time. 
2. Dogs should be watched when eating. * This prevents choking and also gives you an idea how well they are managing to chew up whats in the bowl. Adjustments should be made as to whether you have to chop up more. When starting raw, at first I literally pulverize it in a processor. Increasing in size the pieces I put in. 
3. Starting out with a single meat source ( say chicken) , keeping in the same family for the organ meat ( like chicken livers) again- so as to look for any food allergies. 
4. When a dog is coming off a kibble diet, any retained minerials the food had ( this includes food colorings), some dogs can get diareah as it flushes into the liver and the bowel. If a dog gets mild direah it usually only lasts about 2 days. It takes that long to detox the liver. The stool- if detoxing will appear to have a dark greenish haze to it. If you see that- that means the dog is detoxing. Back off the amount you are feeding to help out with the detox but also does not put as much food in the gut so the detox is faster. 
5********** Most important! Kibble digests slower than raw. For this reason if the gut slows down in the intestines this can cause the bone to digest too slowly. Instead of processing the bone with the calcium etc, the bone can become hard. Therefore- when switching back from kibble to raw- the best way to do is - is as follows
a.- feed half what you feed the night before. ( like the kibble amount you were feeding in a single meal). Then next morning- feed only half the raw you would feed in one meal. The next feeding pm is normal amount you would feed. ( this is the same pattern you do if you have to switch back from raw to kibble.. same process..) 
b. I have found in doing the switch its easier if that half meal is only meat and little bone to clean the intestines out. 
6. A dog on raw eats fast. This can be a problem when back on kibble as they might gulp. While the jury is out exactly how much gulping the kibble can cause bloat, its best to keep this in the back of your mind. feeding smaller kibble amounts, or putting somethig in the bowl ( like a ball) will slow the dog down so they can not gulp the kibble down. 
7. Certain foods are " rich" on dogs. What this really is a lower fat content- needed for digestion. These foods include low fat ground meat, venison, pork. How you can tell if these foods were " too rich" verses making a food allergy is that the stomach is gassy. Without the needed fat to digest, the stomach acids go on like over load, making the stool smell. Whatever it was you added- back off. I never feed alot of these. Only little chunks and in moderation. While some dogs do fine, when in doubt- back off what you are giving of these meats. 
8.As with preparing your own meats, wash all utensils. I have literally a dog cutting board. ( its a thick plastic type). Bowls should be washed after meals *. 
9. Use metal or ceremic bowls. Plastic bowls absorb the fats in foods* 
10. If you add veggies, use only raw, and I use only one. Dogs do not need much fiber or grains or grasses. ( think about it- if they caught a rabbit they would only get the veggies that were in the rabbits gut.. sorry for the analogy but you can get the point). 
11. I do not feed grains. Its a false carb, usually slows down the digestion by binding up the intestines. If I add anything its raw old fashion oatmeal ( in the cardboard container Quaker Oats no flavor),and very little ( one tablespoon per 30 pounds of body weight). Oatmeal is another subject I can go into as to the purpose of the use. Long and short of it is that is a natural adrenaline adjuster.. ( more on that later..) 
12.... Amounts to feed- 2 percent of dogs body weight ( if an adult). This is broken up into two meals- so that is 1 percent body weight twice a day. So my 100 pound dogs get one pound twice a day.. This is of course adjusted depending on activity level etc. Puppies- 3-5 percent body weight. A puppy is by definition of the breed type. So a toy dog is a puppy less time than say a giant or large breed. 
Of that amount 10 percent of the meat should be organ meat. Its not 10 percent body weight- its 10 percent amount of what is being fed. 
13- Dairy products should be complete and balenced A and D. I have found yogurt to be better than cottage cheese. If you use cottage cheese make sure its not the " fat free" kind. ( see above post on fats..). also yogurt has digestive enzymes. 
14. I add raw egg- shell and all crushed up. Shell for calcium and egg is whole protein..


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

trumpetjock said:


> Sigh... This again?
> 
> There are a lot of people out there extolling the virtues of tennis balls, and I got sucked into it too. I ended up with a very sick dog and a lot of vet bills after he got it lodged in his throat. Please don't give your dog tennis balls no matter what anyone tells you. It's dangerous, and the likelihood of injuring your dog with them are very high, as my isolated incidence clearly proves.





zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> clearly kibble shouldn't be fed...ever...





Spicy1_VV said:


> Raw is dangerous
> 
> Commercial dog food is dangerous
> 
> ...




Holy crap ya'll are great....BUT I choked on my sandwich when I read your posts so _clearly_ you shouldn't eat while reading Dogforums.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

BoxMeIn didn't you know that is the #1 rule of DF. Thou shall not consume thy sandwich while viewing DF


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Spicy1_VV said:


> BoxMeIn didn't you know that is the #1 rule of DF. Thou shall not consume thy sandwich while viewing DF


Well that will be the last time I ignore THAT rule.


----------



## McBeck (Mar 27, 2008)

I was discussing raw w/ the lady who owns a local dog/cat supply shop. She's a really great person and just about the only local I know who feeds raw. She gave me a free bag of Nature's Variety lamb to try while I'm researching BARF & raw diets. Maija is definitely crazy for the NV food.

I'm still learning as much as I can & you guys have been most helpful. I found a bunch of pics online showing happy dogs & their raw meals. I gotta admit, the squidgy ick factor was high. I'm not sure I'll be able to handle the prep work on some of these foods. The whole rabbit heads kinda made me woozy, and the descriptions of green tripe are a bit intimidating. I think I need to have a heart-to-heart w/ my butcher to see exactly what kinds of creatures he is willing to grind and patty for me. LOL


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

There are so many things to choose from to feed raw that you really don't have to make do with things that make you "squidgy ick." I don't think I could do the rabbit heads either, although they were a hot item at a raw food co-op that I used to do business with. Since our area has become less rural I am feeding more from things I can find at the grocery store like whole chickens, pork, beef, heart, kidney, liver. Having a teenager who is responsible for some of the raw feedings, she likes the fact that the stuff from the grocery is pretty free of ick and blood. Most of it, even the organs, just look like regular meat. And slimy stuff like liver and kidney we keep in the freezer until 30 minutes before feeding. It defrosts just enough to cut into meal chunks but isn't squidgy ick!

Since we have 3 small dogs, ordering tripe online is just too much tripe. So I buy them the Solid Gold canned tripe. It's not too bad.

Why would you want to grind though? The only reason I see to grind is if you have a dog with dental or other health issues that makes it unlikely that they could chew small bones. There is much benefit to be had from feeding whole parts...good exercise for the jaw, some teeth cleaning benefits, fulfills the need most dogs have to chew on something...besides your shoes.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

briteday said:


> Why would you want to grind though? The only reason I see to grind is if you have a dog with dental or other health issues that makes it unlikely that they could chew small bones. There is much benefit to be had from feeding whole parts...good exercise for the jaw, some teeth cleaning benefits, fulfills the need most dogs have to chew on something...besides your shoes.


It can be easier for some people who are not comfortable at preparing it. Because they are vegetarians who will feed their dogs meat but don't like dealing with it themselves, because they just hate certain raw food items, because some dogs don't chew the bones small enough and it would be safer for them to be "pre chewed". Sometimes when not chewed the bones don't fully digest and cause problems with passing them, which can result in injury to the dog, other times its just difficult for them. Sometimes they will choke on them. You've got to watch some of them, some have to actually learn to chew instead of swallow. It is just like buying premade raw, those come in patties.

EDIT ok here are pics. Teeth pics are not the greatest I know. 

I've noted that several dogs allowed to chew on the more stout bones often have broken canines. Even out of 10-20 dogs a breeder might have I've seen many within each group have this problem. Since I show most of my dogs I don't want that. 

My dogs teeth are not dirty or icky. But I've seen dogs that eat the bones not have the cleanest teeth either. (some of them, some are very clean) Nothing as nasty as kibble fed dogs, as I see lots of build up on their teeth depending on the dog of course. Maybe it even depends what brand food the owner feeds I'm not sure. 

I have senior dogs with wonderful teeth I think. (my dogs teeth, never been given whole bones) To me they are nice pearly whites.


















This dog is fed whole bones, besides having a broken canine the teeth are not as nice and clean. 

















I personally don't feel my dogs need a jaw excercise/work out. I think their jaws are plenty strong. They can always play with toys if they like though.

So I think to each his own. If someone wants to feed the patties thats great, if someone wants to feed whole parts thats great too. Whatever works out best for you and your dog(s).


----------

