# How do we walk our dog? We need help!



## ljs624 (Oct 31, 2009)

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ljs624
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Post We need help! We can't figure out how to walk our dog...
My husband and I are looking for any help that we can get.

We adopted our dog from a shelter about 6 weeks ago. He is a hound/lab mix (40 lbs or so) and is about 18 months old.

Our dog has definitely never been walked on a lead before. We live in a small condo and have to walk him outside in order for him to have any good exercise. We take him on the same path 5 times a day. The path is roughly 1/2 a mile and takes about 15-20 minutes to walk.

We had several sessions with a trainer who said when we walk him and he pulls to pause until he loosens the lead then give the "OK" command and walk again. This has almost become a game to him and he goes back to pulling as soon as we say "OK" (especially when a squirrel is nearby). This is not working after 3 weeks of trying.

Besides the pulling problem our bigger problem is figuring out what type of collar/Halti/harness to use in combination with a lead.

The first two days we tried a neck collar with a nylon lead. He pulled to the point that he would cough for 10 minutes after we took the lead off.

We knew the neck collar was wrong so we next tried a Halti with the nylon lead. This worked for a few days but he quickly figure out the nylon lead was soft enough that he could bite it and it could become a tug toy. We tried high-value treats, his favorite toy, and rawhides to distract him from the nylon lead but once he had it in his mouth we could not get it back from him.

The trainer said to try a chain lead with the Halti so he couldn't put the lead in his mouth and play tug with it. She also said to get him a good tug toy for in the house so his urge to play tug is appeased elsewhere. The Halti/chain lead worked for about a week but the chain lead is VERY heavy. The Halti is like a bridle over his nose and the chain lead pulls it down and I'm sure it is uncomfortable.

Now when we walk him he puts both front paws into the Halti and takes it off his nose. Luckily we have also linked the chain lead to his neck collar so he doesn't run away but he again goes back to pulling and hurting his neck. We've tried stopping when he puts his paws in the Halti and we've tried to continue to walk. It doesn't matter what we try because he finds a way to slip the Halti on EVERY walk.

We also tried to start the walk with the Halti/chain lead and about half-way into the walk we unhook the Halti and put the chain lead on his neck collar. This worked for about 2 minutes then he would pull until he choked again.

We finally tried a nylon harness with the chain lead but once again he discovered the nylon on him and as soon as we step outside he would lie down to try to bite and play with the nylon harness. He does everything he can to slip it and bite it.

My husband and I are completely out of ideas. Is there anything on the market that we can put on him AND use as a lead so we can help train him to walk?

Does anyone have any better tips for training him to walk? Should we try shorter or longer intervals when we pause? We can't remove the distractions when we walk him because they are nature and our neighbors and we don't have alternatives where we live (North-Central NJ).


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

It sounds like your boy is ready for a prong/pinch collar. They are not cruel and they simulate the natural correction they would have gotten from their mother if they were out of line. make sure it is sized correctly and for a hound mix of that size probally a heavy gauge (not the little wincy size). When you size it make sure it hangs loosely on your dog (likely an extra link from how it would fit just right if it were any other collar). The corrections are sharp quick little pops not nagging pulling (that is ineffective) if you're concerned about it hurting your dog put it on your thigh first and correct yourself just to see and keep in mind that a dogs nerve endings are a LOT deeper into their dermis than ours. Since you're already talkign with a trainer maybe they'd be willing to give you a lesson on how to properly use a prong collar.


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## ljs624 (Oct 31, 2009)

Thank you for the suggestion about the prong collar. I was nervous to try it because it looks so scary but from what you are saying it doesn't hurt him, it just corrects him. Our trainer sessions are Saturday mornings so I will check with her next week to see what she says. 

I'm not convinced our trainer is giving us the best information for training a year and a half old dog with no prior training but I am willing to try anything.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

If you're not satisfied with your trainer tell them this and if they get offended well too bad... you're paying THEM to help you and if they aren't helping then it's wasted money. Prong collars DO look a lot worse than they really are. I have used them on everything from 12 week old pups to 230 pound newfies all with out objection, discomfort or hostility and they all respond AWESOME from the second the collar is put on them. I do animal behavior work as well and have had several clients tell me if they were uncomfortable with something and we always work it out. If you're comfortable with it PM me your phone # and I'll give you a call to discuss your trainer and your issues with walking your pup.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

A couple of suggestions - 

1) Try training him on the leash inside the house where there are no distractions. If he pulls you can do two things; stop until the leash is slack or walk the other direction. The whole idea is that pulling gets them the opposite of what they want. You will find that with young dogs with high anxiety level, the stopping and starting routine increases their anxiety. It is probably better to try walking the other direction so that they at least keep moving. 

2) Invest in a clicker. If he takes a few steps without pulling, click and treat. At first, you want to reward him often. Again, do this inside the house first. Eventually you can shape the behavior so that he not only walks on a loose leash, but he walks by your side.

3) Do not let the leash represent excitement. If he is jumping around while you grab the leash, put it down until he's calm. You can't proceed to the next step until he's calm. Do not let him rush out the door. If he tries to rush out the door you can try two things; close the door or body block him. 

4) Instead of the halti, try the gentle leader. It's harder for them to get that off. Remember though, the gentle leader, the halti, prong collar, they're all just tools. You still need to do the training to make it work. You don't hand a carpenter a hammer and expect a house to be built the next day.

I know exactly what you're going through. I got my dog at approximately 1.5 years old and he was a wreck on the leash. He would pull like his life depended on it, no matter how badly it hurt. It never occurs to them that to keep from choking they can stop pulling. We got the gentle leader head halter and that helped with training as it gave us ultimate control. 

Eventually, after about 1-2 months of following the above tips, he started to routinely walk calmly in the heel position. He's not on the head halter anymore, but we do have him on the no pull harness, just because that gives us a little bit more control than a flat collar. If you saw our dog walk with us these days you'd be like, "wow, that is one well behaved dog!" He walks better than 95% of the dogs out there, but there was a time about 4 months ago when he was a nightmare just like yours. It takes a lot of patience and consistency, but it can be trained. Stay positive and believe.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

One thing. A properly fitted prong collar should fit snug so that you can just get your little finger between the prongs and the skin on the dog's neck. You should not be aboe to just slip it over the dog's head. It should also sit high on the neck behind the ears. It's ok if it slips down a bit but it should not sit down where his regular, buckle collar sits.

I also recommend getting a good quality one, such as a Herm Sprenger brand rather than one of the cheaper ones found at many pet supply stores.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I would encourage you to take a training class with your dog. In a class you will see and learn hands on techniques for dealing with your problem.

In the hands of someone experienced, this is an issue that can be corrected in MINUTES.

Part of the problem is your half of the equation. The dog can't pull unless he has a partner in the game. 

The secret is getting to a loose lead, and then rewarding the dog for the loose lead. Many people have a serious problem with getting a loose lead, recognizing a loose lead, and not unconsciously tightening/pulling on the lead. This is one area where a class or some private instruction can be immensely helpful.

On a 40 lb dog I would use a buckle collar, and I would not allow the dog a tight lead. I would do one of two things: 

1) as soon as he got in front of me where he could not see me, I would quietly turn and walk in the other direction without saying anything at all. Laws of physics will take care of the rest. Work to reward the dog as soon as he comes back up to your left side.

2) as soon as the dog gets 18" in front of my leg, I will pull the dog back behind my leg with a smooth pulling motion, and immediately dump slack in the leash, and feed the dog a treat right beside my leg. An easy way to make sure you are rewarding the dog by your leg is to take the treat in your left hand, and then touch your wrist to your leg while the dog eats the treat. This will remind you ever time to give the treat in the correct position.

It is very important to get to the loose lead so you can reward the dog for that.

Attention games will also be very beneficial, and this is something you can start indoors without the lead.

http://www.redyre.com/training/nolookie.html

Good luck, try to find a class, it will help you so much!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

skelaki said:


> One thing. A properly fitted prong collar should fit snug so that you can just get your little finger between the prongs and the skin on the dog's neck. You should not be aboe to just slip it over the dog's head. It should also sit high on the neck behind the ears. It's ok if it slips down a bit but it should not sit down where his regular, buckle collar sits.
> 
> I also recommend getting a good quality one, such as a Herm Sprenger brand rather than one of the cheaper ones found at many pet supply stores.


THAT is incorrect.. a prong collar should NOT fit snug... if it's snug the slightest bit of pull or pressure gives your dog a correction, and that is not proper training. You only want your dog to get corrected where it is needed not on every slight movement. THAT is NOT how to correct with a prong collar. You always want to use the leat amount of correction as possible... if the collar is lwoer then that is a lower level of correction... if your dog needs more correction move the collar up to behind his ears and keep a little more pressure on it. Your dog should not be walking in a constant state of correction... that is just scary for the dog.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

For me I don't see the need for a prong collar with a 40 lb dog. 

With the right technique this problem can be fixed quickly with just a buckle collar.

OP.....

If you need help finding a class or instruction in your area, PM me and I will see if I can help.


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## BentletheYentle (Oct 6, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> THAT is incorrect.. a prong collar should NOT fit snug... if it's snug the slightest bit of pull or pressure gives your dog a correction, and that is not proper training. You only want your dog to get corrected where it is needed not on every slight movement. THAT is NOT how to correct with a prong collar. You always want to use the leat amount of correction as possible... if the collar is lwoer then that is a lower level of correction... if your dog needs more correction move the collar up to behind his ears and keep a little more pressure on it. Your dog should not be walking in a constant state of correction... that is just scary for the dog.


A prong collar should NOT be loose. The collar needs to be fitted snugly in order for it to work properly. Please read the following links, especially the first one, to learn how to correctly fit a prong before advising anyone else in the future.

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

http://www.ezdogpark.com/prongcollar.htm

OP:
Address your concerns with your trainer. If you sit down and talk with the trainer and things do not improve, there is nothing wrong with finding a new one. You are paying them, therefore you should be getting the results you want. Redyre offered some excellent advise, the same that I would have offered you as well. If you choose to use a prong collar, that is fine, they can be wonderful tools, but find someone who can show you how to properly fit and use the collar. Good luck with the pup and have some patience, sometimes it does just take a lot of time and patience before it "clicks." The more you make a slack leash a positive experience, the sooner your walks will be relaxed for you and your dog.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I have read several links on fitting the prong collar and I disagree with them totally. if you fit the collar tight it puts your dog in a constant state of correction. I have tried training both ways tight and loose and find the dogs much more reactive to the loose fitting prong collar, a lotl ess anxious because correctinos are given at the precise moment when they're needed and also it doesn't desensatize your dog from the constant corection they get from wearing the collar high and tight.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I have read several links on fitting the prong collar and I disagree with them totally. if you fit the collar tight it puts your dog in a constant state of correction.
> .


I like the word snug verses tight and IMHO the dog should only recieve the level of stimuli that is needed to act as a true correction at the appropriate time along with any cues, verbals, or warnings. I have used a snug fitting prong collar in many circumtances and in others found it best to allow for a loose fitting collar depending on different issues.

Snug DOES NOT nec equate to being continuosly aversive in my experience having used a prong on hundreds of dogs I have also trained/participated in training hundreds of dogs without the requirement or need for them it just depended on the dog/circumstances. .

There are many ways in which to use this tool in the method of using corrections and what may be needed or work for one persons circumstances may or may not for another person in there circumstances. 

The only absolute I might offer is that If your trainer is not skilled enough to explain and show you all of these differences then you SHOULD consider other options.


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## Charlene (Sep 12, 2009)

when i had siberian huskies, i used an anti-pull harness like this...










it worked like a charm. mind you, it doesn't really TEACH the dog not to pull but it does discourage it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dog_Shrink
I second the too tight collar. I do not do the prong collar high on neck routine. I prefer a loose collar so that when dog is corrected the collar can only close to the circumference of dog's neck and there is no constricting/choking at all. I am not silly enough to claim that this is correct or proper use of a prong-collar. Other trainers can do the collar work as they see fit.

It is just the way I use it as I dislike choking sensation of any kind on dogs that I train, I start all dogs on prong and then switch if I decide other methods/collars should be used. 95% of dogs are started and finished with prongs.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Thank you


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## ara28 (Feb 18, 2008)

You could also try an easywalk harness. It hooks around their back, under their tummy and across the chest and the loop to attach the leash is in the center of their chest so when they pull, they actually turn around because of the way the harness is designed.


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## 2houndsdesign (Nov 8, 2009)

We offer a Patented No-Pull harness on our website that features a martingale loop on the back of the harness (the patented part) so it tightens gently around your dog's chest to discourage pulling. It has an additional connection on the front of the harness that allows you to redirect your dog's attention back to you. We offer the harness with a 2 ended training leash so that you can connect to the front and back of the harness at the same time. 

http://www.2houndsdesign.com/Patented-No-Pull-Harness-c-13.html

Let me know if you have any questions!


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## mikedavid00 (Oct 15, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> It sounds like your boy is ready for a prong/pinch collar.


So let me get this straight. A shock collar is cruel, but a PRONG collar is not?

Laughs!! 

Anyhow, 

This is my example of a mainstreme dog owner. If he doesn't know how to walk a dog, how is he supposed to pick a breed or know how to buy a dog. That was the point I was making. 

Back to topic though,

I would just use the choke collar and* be more aggressive *with the dog. He'll come along eventually. Another way, is to 'lure' him forward with treats. That is the positive re-enforcement way.

You'll need to musle him fwd and raise your voice may help. Learning to walk on the leash is always a painful lesson and you can use negative re-enformacement, but only use it on those important things.

It's odd there is a lab mix at 18 months old that has never been on a leash before. How did they walk him at the shelter?

BTW How is his temperment?



BentletheYentle said:


> A prong collar should NOT be loose. The collar needs to be fitted snugly in order for it to work properly. Please read the following links, especially the first one, to learn how to correctly fit a prong before advising anyone else in the future.


Ouch!!!

Dog_Shrink get SERVED!!

Anyhow, I agree with Dog_Shrink. The collar needs some play so he can get jabbed with the prongs. 

Again I would just be a bit more forcefull with what you have. Learning to walk is painful for the dog and usually involves negative re-enforcement. A 40lb dog you'll really have to muscle him and you might think your really hurting him but don't worry about it. It's part of training and he wont hold it against you.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

mikedavid00 said:


> So let me get this straight. A shock collar is cruel, but a PRONG collar is not?
> 
> Laughs!!
> 
> ...


Believe it or not......

There's thousands of individuals on this forum with thousands of opinions.

Not everyone agrees on the best training method. Some people believe e-collars are cruel. Others believe they are humane. 

This is not a borg hive you're talking to, for gods sake.

But.

One thing that we can all universally agree on:

You're wrong. 

Also... a correction from a prong collar is Positive Punishment, not Negative Reinforcement. Learn your defintions.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

mikedavid00 said:


> Learning to walk is painful for the dog and usually involves negative re-enforcement. A 40lb dog you'll really have to muscle him and you might think your really hurting him but don't worry about it. It's part of training and he wont hold it against you.


So how do you explain this result? Witchcraft?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

OK mike so you would rather crush your dog's larynx with a choke chain because it does exactly like the name says... chokes... and being more aggressive with a choke collar is just going to make a dog more resistant. A prong collar is actually designed to simulate the natural correction that a dog would have received from it's mother or litter mates... put one on your thigh some day (if it'll fit) and try it...

Now I know why your pup is soooo stotic... you yell at it and force it and are hostile with it... you're gonna ruine your mutt. THAT is no way to train a dog through hostility. My 13 week old pup walks beautifully on a lead and has from the first time she ever had one on with NO experience coaxing or hostility. And she had never been on lead either... went from the shelter in West virginia to the rescue in latrobe Pa... never ever saw a leash or collar in her life. 

lastly I don't know how you think I got "served" but whatever... the way I use prong collars is to MINIMIZE the amount of un-needed correction and the porper correction on prongs is slight pops not nagging pulling. Keeping a prong higher and tight on the neck is going to give dog constant correction and THAT is cruel. And yes e-collars are EXTREMELY hostile... remember lightening is also just a "static" discharge. 

ps*..."You'll need to musle him fwd and raise your voice may help. Learning to walk on the leash is always a painful lesson and you can use negative re-enformacement, but only use it on those important things." * THIS is a crock of $h*t... do this and I guarantee you that dog will NEVER come around and only associate the leash and walking on it with a negative expereince... but go ahead and try this on a sensitive breed like your mutt and see where it gets you. You might want a dog that works out of the fear of reprocussion rather than the anticipation of reward but most don't. Using a prong collar properly is indirect corretion... the dog realises I pull therefore I get pinched and has no hostility towards You because it was his action that caused the reaction... not some jackass shouting and choking them to get them to move. 

*"Again I would just be a bit more forcefull with what you have. Learning to walk is painful for the dog and usually involves negative re-enforcement. A 40lb dog you'll really have to muscle him and you might think your really hurting him but don't worry about it. It's part of training and he wont hold it against you." *This is also a HUGE crock of $H*t... the dog will absolutely hold it against you... a good leader is suppose to be firm but fair not hostile and aggressive... Learning to walk on lead or training in general should NOT be a painful experience for the dog... and BTW prong collar points are rounded and don't JAB the dog... it applies EVEN * pressure *all the way around the neck and is designed to NOT crush the larynx like traditional choke chains which should be sitting right next to the iron maiden. 

Why don't you stick to what you do best Mike... whatever that is but it certainly isn't canine behavior or training. I'm pretty sure the OP would rather listen to a certified behaviorest with 17 years experience rather than some know nothing mainstream idiot like yourself. Please call me out again... I love making you look like the idiot you are.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> lastly I don't know how you think I got "served" but whatever... the way I use prong collars is to MINIMIZE the amount of un-needed correction and the porper correction on prongs is slight pops not nagging pulling. Keeping a prong higher and tight on the neck is going to give dog constant correction and THAT is cruel. And yes e-collars are EXTREMELY hostile... remember lightening is also just a "static" discharge.


I've always been instructed to not allow a prong collar to hang loose on the dog’s neck. My dogs were it about an inch under their ears, but it isn't actually poking into their skin. It just lays snug enough against the fur to keep the collar from falling down their neck. After all, the goal is to always have slack in the leash. For instance, my leash always hangs about a couple of feet loose when the dog is in a heel position. If your leash is lose, then there won't be any pressure in a properly placed prong collar.

ETA: I also always use the itty bitty links since they don't look as harsh on the dog. I have noticed that people tend to view a dog on a prong as aggressive or unruly. And I've never had a problem using the little links. The only way I can see an issue is if the dog constantly pulled and you were having to do repetitive corrections. Mine don't have an issue with that. Dusk is 80 lbs, and I've never had to replace a link.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Yes Dobmaniac that is the traditional ideal behind prong collar is to use them high and tight and I have always disagreed with that philosophy... I find it to be too stressful for overly sensitive breeds and we don't want to increase anxiety while training but relieve it. I'm glad that you realise that you are using the wrong size link for your breed of dog and are smart enough to use it properly or it could be disasterous for the dog. Again tho this arguement comes down to personal preference and this is how I instruct my client's to use the prong... if the dog ends up needing more correction then the collar is raised to high and tight but 98% of the time we never have to get to that point. After a couple of correctins of the collar being loose the dog generally gets the idea that "I shouldn't pull" and we never need to be more hostile than that. I aklso agree that people do look at you funny when you use the prong collar but that is just because the don't understand the premice behind it. I have had several people comment to me abut them at PetSmart duing socializing ventures and even had them put ther hands between my dog's collar and his neck just to see for themselves how little the collar actually produced as far as pain.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Yes Dobmaniac that is the traditional ideal behind prong collar is to use them high and tight and I have always disagreed with that philosophy... I find it to be too stressful for overly sensitive breeds and we don't want to increase anxiety while training but relieve it.


Well, I can’t comment on how different breeds would react, as I have only trained Dobermans. But Ollie does tend to be on the more sensitive side, so I added the plastic tips on to her collar. And that made the correction a good deal gentler. I also tend to use mostly voice corrections with her anyway. She is super willing to please, and I don’t see the point in using a collar correction unless the dog is distracted or trying to be outwardly stubborn.



Dog_Shrink said:


> I'm glad that you realise that you are using the wrong size link for your breed of dog and are smart enough to use it properly or it could be disasterous for the dog.


I wouldn’t say I “realize” that I’m using the wrong collar. My training facility recommends this size collar for Dobermans. And this was from someone that competes regularly in obedience with my breed. But as you said, it all comes down to personal preference, and the temperament of that individual dog. Dusk is horribly strong, but he is also putty in my hands. So it really has never taken much to get all 80 lbs of him to give me his attention. But he’s also a bit of a pushover.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Awww I have an Ollie too but Mine is an 80 pound boxer/am bull mix... he's an 80 pound cat tho...he rarely gets off the couch 










I love it when he gives me the stink eye... just like "geesh there's that stinkin camera again... I'd love to see more pics of your dobermans... I've always admired their beauty and intelligence.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

mikedavid00 said:


> Again I would just be a bit more forcefull with what you have. Learning to walk is painful for the dog and usually involves negative re-enforcement. A 40lb dog you'll really have to muscle him and you might think your really hurting him but don't worry about it. It's part of training and he wont hold it against you.


Interesting, My 70lb and 48lb GSD's walk fine, both from a shelter, without a prong or choke or a shock collar...

I must be really lucky.

A prong does sound like a cheap easy thing to try though.

Or you can try instead of stopping, reversing direction, or circling when he pulls. You may look goofy reversing directions every few minutes for days, but it can work. Basicallly see if he will learn a pull to go somewhere=going the opposite way from what he wants, and not pulling means he gets to go there.

Also watch your route. Dogs will pull more a lot if they have a set route to walk, change it up every time a bit, go the opposite direction around blocks, keep it so it's not so much of a routine that he can predict and anticipate.

Hounds can be pretty stubborn though, good luck.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Yes Dobmaniac that is the traditional ideal behind prong collar is to use them high and tight and I have always disagreed with that philosophy... I find it to be too stressful for overly sensitive breeds and we don't want to increase anxiety while training but relieve it. I'm glad that you realise that you are using the wrong size link for your breed of dog and are smart enough to use it properly or it could be disasterous for the dog. Again tho this arguement comes down to personal preference and this is how I instruct my client's to use the prong... if the dog ends up needing more correction then the collar is raised to high and tight but 98% of the time we never have to get to that point. After a couple of correctins of the collar being loose the dog generally gets the idea that "I shouldn't pull" and we never need to be more hostile than that. I aklso agree that people do look at you funny when you use the prong collar but that is just because the don't understand the premice behind it. I have had several people comment to me abut them at PetSmart duing socializing ventures and even had them put ther hands between my dog's collar and his neck just to see for themselves how little the collar actually produced as far as pain.


Kellee
Ditto on everything.

DobManiac is correct also because if the dogs she works perform properly you can't argue with success. This silly stuff, working dogs does not come down to a one size fits all program. The time allotted for training individual dogs is a huge ingredient to add to the dog training recipe.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

IMO, the "secret" to teaching a dog to walk on a loose lead is GETTING a loose lead so you can reward the dog for it.

This is a lot more technique and management than it is what kind of collar you are using. I have worked with a LOT of dogs and I have never seen a one that I could not get to walking fairly consistently on a loose lead in MINUTES.

A major problem is that so many people unconsciously keep their dogs on a tight lead! While *I* can take their dog and instantly get a loose lead, and reward the dog for the loose lead, and never let them get it tight again, this involves technique, timing, and skills that have to be developed.

The leash is like a security blanket for so many people and they just don't feel comfortable unless they can feel the dog on the other end.

In 30+ years of training dogs, I have never used an electronic collar, and I have used prong collars only for polishing a dog for the competition obedience rings. (FWIW, I fit the prong high up on the neck right behind the ears with little to no slack. The dog is on a LOOSE LEASH unless I am giving a correction).

As time has gone by I have gravitated to much more positive training methods, and my prong collars have been hanging un used for several years.

I routinely walk 2 adult Rottweilers together around my town, and they also pull me in a sulky. In the past I have walked THREE at a time. There is simply no pulling allowed, EVER, unless it's the cart.


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## mikedavid00 (Oct 15, 2007)

If you support the use a prong collar, then you suppor the use of choke chains, shock collars, etc.

Same thing.

I never wanted to get one because I felt it was cruel. The choke or mild shock doesn't hurt the dog. The prong collar actually inflicts pain.

I hope some new potential dog owners are whitnessing the hypocracy with the enthusiasts. This is another example. Also the pit bull not being agressive and great family pets, yet they not trust their own dog alone with their children. That is hypocracy. The dog is either safe or it's not. You are inflicting pain on the dog to get it to what you want or you are not. 

To the OP, 

The dog is going to have pain if he's going to walk on the leash and with a full grown dog it might suprise how much you have to muscle him. 

Or, you can do the lead trick which is positive and non painful. Someone mentioned it. It's where you lure it forward by treats. 

Chocke chains are the most popular dog chain for a reason. When you tug the dog where you want him to go, he will go. My dog is no problem on the leash. But trust me, he was flipping and flayling all over the place the moment he got it on. It took a few days for him to get use to it and now if he goes near mud or something, I just need a small tug and he'll move away. He knows what happens when he resists the collar. This is WHY a choke chain is the MOST POPULAR CHAIN SOLD.

I'm suggesting with a 40lb dog and not a puppy, You'll really have to *really pull*. If you hear an audible choking sound from the dog, ease off. Don't pull that hard. Try to pull and give a treat at the same time. Since the dog isn't a light puppy, the chance of the dog having some broken neck or something is highly, highly, unlikely.

That's how you train a dog to walk. The prong collar also works in the same way but if neighbours and such see it they will think it's cruel. I personally wouldn't use it becuase it doesn't sit well with me if the dog gets cut and such.

After the 3rd day, he'll be walking fine and after a week will be responding to tugs.

But wow at 40lbs your going to have to musle him.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

mikedavid00 said:


> Blah blah blah blah...non sequitur...blah blah blah....


Fascinating.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Again Mike all I can say is WOW to your ignorance... thank you SO much for pointing out exactly how to NOT train a dog but instill fear based behaviors. Prong collars and choke chains are NOT the same except that they are both made of metal. Prong points are blunt and dull and can even be capped for a lesser degere of correction. They do not Cut the dog, they aren't cruel and no where near as hostile as a shock collar... btw what kind of idiot are you to put a 9-ish week old pup on a choke chain to the point of them flipping and flailing at the end of the lead... you truly are an idiot. I DO NOT SUPPORT CHOKE CHAINS AND E-COLLARS... THEY are inhumane. You can not "break" a dog's neck using a prong collar but you CAN crush their Larynx (their windpipe for the stupid) using a choke chain very easily esp. on a small or young dog. Why are they the most popular collar... because they are cheap and most people have been programmed that those are the way to go, BUT even at that most people are smartening up to the fact that there are much better options out there aside from the cruelty inflicted by choke chains. 

Wow just so much stupidity to refute... You shouldn't have to constantly "pull" your dog to cotrrect it on lead... have you ever heard of VERBAL direction??? My 13 week old pup responds wonderfully to clicks and kissy noises and she is walked on a simple flat nylon collar,and at that age you still have the beauty of the laws of social attraction that makes them WANT to stay close to you so if your pup is heading for the hills when you grab it's lead... well you put 2 and 2 together. Training does not equal Pain... a dog should NOT have pain if he is going to walk on a leash and inflicting pain while training a dog to walk on lead (yet again repeating myself) is ONLY going to make the dog averse to walking on lead. Dogs should work out of anticipatin of reward and it should not be out of fear of reprisal... Wow you never learn... I would HATE to be a dog in your home. 

Redy you offered some wonderful advice in your tips for loose lead walking and I would love to go carting with your rotties... that sounds like a blast! Please people take the replies of the educated dog PROFESSIONALS and not the misguided ramblings of an alcoholic misfit as gospel. (yes Mike that was directed towards You).


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

mikedavid00 said:


> If you support the use a prong collar, then you suppor the use of choke chains, shock collars, etc.
> 
> Same thing.


All the above are training tools. I know people who use electronic collars to train their dogs. They are not used in an abusive manner. They are, like any other training tool, as kind or as cruel as the hand that is using them.

Slip collars should not be called choke collars. They are NOT intended to choke the dog. If a dog on a slip collar has a tight lead, the collar is USELESS, and the handler needs education and help with technique.



mikedavid00 said:


> I never wanted to get one because I felt it was cruel. The choke or mild shock doesn't hurt the dog. The prong collar actually inflicts pain.
> 
> I hope some new potential dog owners are whitnessing the hypocracy with the enthusiasts. This is another example. Also the pit bull not being agressive and great family pets, yet they not trust their own dog alone with their children. That is hypocracy. The dog is either safe or it's not. You are inflicting pain on the dog to get it to what you want or you are not.


Everything in this above paragraph is WRONG. People who do not leave dogs and children alone together are using their BRAIN. Kids will be kids, and dogs will be dogs, and they should NOT be left together to make their own decisions as to how to interact. ANY dog will bite if put in a situation which it finds overwhelming. What these situations are vary widely from dog to dog, according to the inherited temperament and the early training and socialization of the dog. SMART PEOPLE do not take chances, with the kids, or the dogs.




mikedavid00 said:


> To the OP,
> 
> The dog is going to have pain if he's going to walk on the leash and with a full grown dog it might suprise how much you have to muscle him.


I invite you to come to my home and try to muscle one of my dogs into doing something. This statement is actually SO IGNORANT I can hardly believe I am reading it. The most powerful training tool for ANY dog is the human brain. All my dogs except the baby puppies who are here, are stronger and much quicker and more powerful than I am. I use my BRAIN to train these dogs. They NEVER pull me, or pull on the leash, because I am smart enough and I have made it my business over many years to learn other ways of dealing with these training issues. NO DOG should arbitrarily be subjected to pain in training! My dogs work WITH me, as a team, using their intelligence to earn the rewards that they know are coming if they interact with me and perform.



mikedavid00 said:


> Or, you can do the lead trick which is positive and non painful. Someone mentioned it. It's where you lure it forward by treats.


I don't use much luring once puppies are past 8-12 weeks and have learned, in a VERY positive way to follow along with me and not pull BACKWARDS on the leash. They are NEVER put in a position to feel pressure on the leash. NOT EVER. I am very careful of this from the very beginning. The collar and leash for my dogs is ALWAYS a positive experience. If I pick up a leash or a collar around here, my dogs MOB me, hoping to be the one who gets to play with me. And yes, that is what they think it is!



mikedavid00 said:


> Chocke chains are the most popular dog chain for a reason. When you tug the dog where you want him to go, he will go. My dog is no problem on the leash. But trust me, he was flipping and flayling all over the place the moment he got it on. It took a few days for him to get use to it and now if he goes near mud or something, I just need a small tug and he'll move away. He knows what happens when he resists the collar. This is WHY a choke chain is the MOST POPULAR CHAIN SOLD.
> 
> I'm suggesting with a 40lb dog and not a puppy, You'll really have to *really pull*. If you hear an audible choking sound from the dog, ease off. Don't pull that hard. Try to pull and give a treat at the same time. Since the dog isn't a light puppy, the chance of the dog having some broken neck or something is highly, highly, unlikely.
> 
> That's how you train a dog to walk.


TO ANYONE READING THIS: YOU SHOULD NEVER EVER GET INTO A PULLING CONTEST WITH YOUR DOG. YOU CAN INJURE THE DOG'S NECK FOR LIFE BY DOING THIS, PLUS YOU WILL NEVER TEACH THE DOG NOT TO PULL BY PULLING YOURSELF. 

This is NOT how you train a dog to walk. IF it were, there would not be numbers of people every single day on this and other forums asking how to STOP their dogs from pulling.



mikedavid00 said:


> The prong collar also works in the same way but if neighbours and such see it they will think it's cruel. I personally wouldn't use it becuase it doesn't sit well with me if the dog gets cut and such.


PRONG collars do not cause injury to the dog. IMO, prong collars should not be used to address a pulling issue except in isolated circumstances, VERY UNUSUAL, where nothing else works, and it is a situation that is dangerous to the dog and the handler.

One thing no one has mentioned, and that is SOME dogs, when subjected to the actions of a prong collar, will retaliate by biting or attacking the handler. I call it "going up your arm". Prong collars in the beginning should ALWAYS be used with a second collar and leash that are not attached to the prong collar. Once a dog is accustomed to the prong, and his reactions have been observed, you can eliminate the second leash, but a second collar should always be used as a backup, because the prong can release unexpectedly if the links come apart.


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## ara28 (Feb 18, 2008)

mikedavid00 said:


> The dog is going to have pain if he's going to walk on the leash and with a full grown dog it might suprise how much you have to muscle him.
> 
> 
> I'm suggesting with a 40lb dog and not a puppy, You'll really have to *really pull*. If you hear an audible choking sound from the dog, ease off. Don't pull that hard. Try to pull and give a treat at the same time. Since the dog isn't a light puppy, the chance of the dog having some broken neck or something is highly, highly, unlikely.
> ...




mike, That is some of the worst advice I have ever heard. 

At 57lbs, my dog is more than half my weight and he doesn't pull. I've never used anything other than a flat nylon buckle collar on him. 

If he wanted to drag me down the road, I'm sure he could because he is strong. 

We work together and all of our walks are very pleasant for us both.


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## Herrick's Mommy (Nov 5, 2009)

> I never wanted to get one because I felt it was cruel. The choke or mild shock doesn't hurt the dog. The prong collar actually inflicts pain.


Um, weren't you the one that actually suggested the use of a surgery to calm down a barking dog? and you say that you don't want to cause a dog pain? You're an idiot, but we already figured that


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

The TRUTH as I see it

1.	Actually some prongs can and DO cut when you consider the usage of the cheaply made ones that you can buy . These cheap brands usually have rather sharp cut off edges (verses the smooth rounded edges on the better machined ones) on them and are likely to cut into a dogs skin depending on the placement, usage, and dogs coat/neck condition ect.

2.	Prong collars can be snug fitting , loose fitting, and positioned anywhere on a dogs neck depending on the dog and application/situation.

3.	On many models there is a secondary loop for attaching the leash too to allow for a different stimuli/effect.

4.	Whether a e-collar (or any collar/tethering device) is inhuman DEPENDS entirely/specifically on the many ways in which one can be used. Flat collars/buckle collars CAN BE used in a inhuman manner depending on the specifics.

5.	Actually it is possible to break a dogs neck on a prong collar but highly less likely to choke a dog.

6.	Prong collars and choke collars are designed as a tool to administer discomfort or pain DEPENDING on specifically how one uses one or the other. In summary the dogs behavior is (hopefully) changed in extinguishing a targeted behavior in a manner that would cause the dog (to change a behavior) not to want to experience such a discomfort or pain again..Thus meeting the definition of a aversive physical correction . The use of such a tool in a way that administers discomfort or pain amounts to conditioning behavior by force, intimidation, fear or reprisal/aversive consequence.

7.	The use of a prong collar along with the wrong method/approach/process can not only cause physical injury but can condition a host of backlash negative behaviors to include but not limited to flight or fight behaviors, associations, distrust, disrespect, ect, ect, ect ,ect ,ect.

8.	Everyone seems to have different opinions..who is telling the truth?

What do I type in the search engine to google the real truth?


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

sparkle said:


> 5.	Actually it is possible to break a dogs neck on a prong collar but highly less likely to choke a dog.


How is a prong collar any more likely to break a dog's neck than a flat buckle nylon collar? I can't imagine myself being able to tug hard enough on ANY collar to break a dog's neck. Could you explain the mechanics of this to me?


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> How is a prong collar any more likely to break a dog's neck than a flat buckle nylon collar? I can't imagine myself being able to tug hard enough on ANY collar to break a dog's neck. Could you explain the mechanics of this to me?


I was not clear at all on #5 .

I meant to say (IN reference to a previous post in this thread) 



> I DO NOT SUPPORT CHOKE CHAINS AND E-COLLARS... THEY are inhumane. You can not "break" a dog's neck using a prong collar but you CAN crush their Larynx (their windpipe for the stupid) using a choke chain very easily esp. on a small or young dog. [\quote]
> 
> 
> that although a prong collar is far less likely to choke a dog compared to a choke collar it can still be used in a manner as to break a dogs neck...so can a flat/buckle collar under certain situations/circumstances.


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## lizziedog1 (Oct 21, 2009)

I don't think there is a right or wrong collar, just right or wrong way to use them. Just like there are right and wrong ways to use just about any training method.

If you go to your local feed store and buy a sack of dog treats, then come home and smack your dog in the head with it, it has lost its effectiveness as a training method.


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