# Jump heights



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Just wondering, how high would you jump a 10 month old GSD, 23" high.

Trying to confirm something.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I don't think I'd jump a large breed dog before they were at least a year old...

Maybe 8" bars? Or jump bumps?

She would definitely be jumping 24" in AKC competition.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Wouldn't. In fact, haven't (non-GSD). Twice.

Doubly so since she already has sketchy joints...wouldn't jump her the full 24" ever.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Thank you. I wouldn't jump her either. Somebody suggested to me that I put her in a long kennel run with PVC set in the slats at 12 inches, so when she ran the fence she'd be forced to jump them. Why? To strengthen her topline.

I declined to do so and I'm sure they're insulted because of it.

Even if we did have kennel runs, I wouldn't allow my dogs to fence run. Becomes neurotic behavior


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Yeah, people are special. Sounds like a "thanks for the suggestion" and walk-away sort of situation.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

That's the kind of advice I usually get. They wanted me to take weight off her too (she's 47 lbs at 10 months old...I'm not taking weight off this puppy). I'm "not a good listener" because I don't take said. 

I feel it would be detrimental to my puppy. If you want to do that with your own, go ahead, but I won't *shrug*. We'll continue swimming. Any jumping she does is over natural ground in the field, nothing forced. She's started taking flying leaps into the pool on her swim days, lol. Apparently it sucksl ess now.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Just to give you a general idea, for agility with older (almost 12 months old) pups the rule is half the height between the ground and the elbow. That being said, the larger the breed the lower that height goes and consideration is always taken into account for breed, body style, athletism and over all well being of the pup first.
As for strengthening a topline, I can think of many other exercises that would benefit it, and none of them involve jumping. Let me know if you want some ideas on what I would do to strengthen a topline or to tighten them up in general


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would LOVE some ideas, Lynn!

I don't even know why I doubted myself. I know better.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I would LOVE some ideas, Lynn!
> 
> I don't even know why I doubted myself. I know better.


Ok, a couple things jump to mind. (pardon the pun 
-Tugging is excellent at strengthening the back.
- Teach her to sit up, carefully with support by you and in a corner and on a surface that she wont slip on. 
-Trotting poles on the ground.
- Putting her into a padded harness and teaching her to pull you a bit while on walks. (not pulling like crazy but a steady pressure)

All these build core Ab. muscles and strengthen the back. I would also do stretching with her: right/left side, nose touch to shoulder, mid barrel and then to her tail, start with just a second or two and then build to hold there for 10 -30 seconds. (use a treat to lure her head around) Make sure you don't over develop one side over another and be mindful that dogs are like people by being right or lefties. Lastly I would have her stretch her head down and between the front legs progressing to reaching back as far as possible, excellent for lengthening and strengthening the back. One note about stretching, don't do it cold, warm her up by walking and trotting for at least 10-15 mins first, get those muscles warm and the blood flowing.

 Hope that helps, if I think of anything else I PM you or post it here.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Thank you much! Some of the stuff we were doing but were just for general flexibility as opposed to strengthening the core, so I'll do them the way you described for amore "ab intensive" workout 

What are trotting poles?


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Cavalettis, basically.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

K, that's what I thought, wanted to be sure


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Cavalettis yes, but with the poles on the ground or only up an inch or two. Another thing, you mentioned swimming which is excellent but another core Ab exercise is walking in water (resistance training) that is up to the knees


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'm not sure we can do the "walking in water" deal (there's no treadmill at the pool we use), but we'll keep up the swimming for sure! Her pool handler is going to be upping the resistance for her in the next couple weeks. She's already quite close to swimming the full 15 minutes, and is even navigating the pool on her own on the straightaways (doing better than Strauss!).

We'll start on these exercises in the morning


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I agree with your choice. I wouldn't jump a dog that young when they're as big as Mirada.

If this was an agility dog, I'd practice the jumps without the poles...just the side poles, no actual jump to get them used to going through the right ones and get them used to my signals. 

For strengthening swimming works way better than jumping fences! Plus that sounds quite dangerous as well.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The very very best way to strengthen abs in a dog is trotting up hill and Caveletti. Yup. Nice steady trot up hill. Good for the owner too. 

You CAN do this with a tread mill by setting the incline, but varying the incline and going a bit steeper can be very good. 

You want to strengthen the abs and stretch the back.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Ooooh I'd never thought about this. My girl is 9 months, 40lbs, and 20 3/4" and though she's been jumping shorter than the smaller dogs in the class I'm now thinking it's still too high. She doesn't jump outside of classes once a week though I will be getting access to the equipment soon. Should she be jumping at all? :/

We did the double jump the other week and had it set at this height, I want to say somewhere around 8"+? She also tends to pogo stick over them sometimes and bounces much higher than she needs to. Cavaletti sounds like a good idea for her.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I would not be jumping a dog this young. 

I look at it this way.. if I am training a young horse I would not be jumping anything much that the horse could not step over (avoid the airborn thing) until the horse was a 4 year old. They can always learn to jump and there is NO NEED to stress joints and bones that are not closed. 

In dogs, waiting until 1 year to 18 months (depending on the breed and how quicly they mature (or not)) is sort of the same idea. 

Remember.. if you are into agility, MOST of the course is on the FLAT (same with hunters/jumpers in horses). You need to hone your flat skills to a "t" and then add the obstacles. Obstacles can be taught at anytime.. but a dog or horse that has an accident at an obstacle (because he is not physically mature enough to do them or has not been brought to them GRADUALLY) is much harder to retrain (if you can) and any animal that is made sore at/over obstacles will start to refuse to do them.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Sibe said:


> Ooooh I'd never thought about this. My girl is 9 months, 40lbs, and 20 3/4" and though she's been jumping shorter than the smaller dogs in the class I'm now thinking it's still too high. She doesn't jump outside of classes once a week though I will be getting access to the equipment soon. Should she be jumping at all? :/
> 
> We did the double jump the other week and had it set at this height, I want to say somewhere around 8"+? She also tends to pogo stick over them sometimes and bounces much higher than she needs to. Cavaletti sounds like a good idea for her.


It looks like that jump is set at 16 inches, too high imo. Also it looks like your indoors on mats, typically very slippery and a very high impact surface.......not good for young dogs.

Low jump grids, jump bumps, poles on the ground before and after a jump and used as stride regulators all work on teaching a dog to use themselves properly over a jumps.

Another rule of thumb is, when teaching a new skill with jumps, the jumps go lower. No need to over face a dog of any age with a higher jump when they are learning a new skill. 

Jumping a mature and trained dog at competition height is the last thing we teach them to do. To give you an idea, I have a 23 inch tall BC, that is 3 yrs old in training with me. They have been in training for almost 1 1/2 yrs, they are entered in their first trial in January and he was just started this fall on how to jump 26 inches. We also don't jump him at that high in every class or every jump.

I also wouldn't jump any dog at full height on mats, unless those mats were very thick and were no slip. Which is why my indoor facility has a packed sand/clay surface with low impact.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

LynnI said:


> Just to give you a general idea, for agility with older (almost 12 months old) pups the rule is half the height between the ground and the elbow. That being said, the larger the breed the lower that height goes and consideration is always taken into account for breed, body style, athletism and over all well being of the pup first.


I've never heard this before, but it's very interesting. Thanks. Do you, by any chance, have a reference for that?

Xeph, I find it strange (and a little scary) that someone would try to tell you to jump the dog higher to straighten their back.  that just sounds a bit cruel and could do more harm than good...

I wouldn't jump a dog until at least over a year, especially larger breeds or breeds prone to HD (regardless of their dam and sire's scores). Even then, they say to keep the bars low, if there at all, for early training purposes. The main target is for the dogs to go between the poles, jumping the right height is something that most dogs have no problem with, once they've got the basics down.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph, I find it strange (and a little scary) that someone would try to tell you to jump the dog higher to straighten their back.


It's not unusual to hear it...especially from people that aren't as into performance as I am. You can see people that have dogs with perf titles, but they aren't INTO it, you know?

Somebody else wanted me to jump her that same height (12") when she was 5 months old.

Needless to say, I didn't do that.

Mirada is currently going over a single flyball jump, on grass. The flyball jump is like four inches high, and it's not something we do everyday.

She HAS gotten into this nasty habit of launching herself off the porch steps however, and we're going to nip that in the bud right quick, for a lot of reasons.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Northern_Inuit_Luv said:


> *I've never heard this before, but it's very interesting. Thanks. Do you, by any chance, have a reference for that?*
> Xeph, I find it strange (and a little scary) that someone would try to tell you to jump the dog higher to straighten their back.  that just sounds a bit cruel and could do more harm than good...
> 
> I wouldn't jump a dog until at least over a year, especially larger breeds or breeds prone to HD (regardless of their dam and sire's scores). Even then, they say to keep the bars low, if there at all, for early training purposes. The main target is for the dogs to go between the poles, jumping the right height is something that most dogs have no problem with, once they've got the basics down.


Sorry, nothing on line (that I am aware off). But countless DVD's by the names in agility like Garrett, Derritt, Salo to mention a few. I have also had working spots or audited many many seminars (including those listed) and the information is always the same as I posted. lol If you set your jump bars at your dogs competition height in a seminar for the exercises, you'll get in crap  
There is a saying in agility (same as in jumping horses); There is only so many jumps in a dog/horse.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

LynnI said:


> Sorry, nothing on line (that I am aware off). But countless DVD's by the names in agility like Garrett, Derritt, Salo to mention a few. I have also had working spots or audited many many seminars (including those listed) and the information is always the same as I posted. lol If you set your jump bars at your dogs competition height in a seminar for the exercises, you'll get in crap
> There is a saying in agility (same as in jumping horses); There is only so many jumps in a dog/horse.


*vouches for all the above, except that sadly the seminars I've attended don't include those names*

(in case you need another opinion)


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Well thanks for the information. I love learning new things


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Shaina said:


> *vouches for all the above, except that sadly the seminars I've attended don't include those names*
> 
> (in case you need another opinion)


Thanks  although it does help to live within 3 hrs of one of those names, I would go more often if I could afford it. But I do the next best thing, take instruction from other instructors that do train there all the time, they also never miss a workshop/camp with the biggest names and they do very well in their own right...........it is cheaper but with the same results lol.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

LynnI said:


> Thanks  although it does help to live within 3 hrs of one of those names, I would go more often if I could afford it. But I do the next best thing, take instruction from other instructors that do train there all the time, they also never miss a workshop/camp with the biggest names and they do very well in their own right...........it is cheaper but with the same results lol.


Well the three are pretty well related so if you are in the area with one, you are probably seeing a lot of direct influence of the others...

I'm not really in the ballpark of any of the big names, so to speak, but get by for the most part. Can be frustrating locally at times so I've started figuring out ways to make a seminar here and there...have a few things right now that are perplexing me so it'd be nice to have something steadier than that but we get by...fortunately my poor pups are quite forgiving.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

If you want to 'straighten' a dog's back the best way is to strengthen the abdominal muscles by trotting up long relatively steep hills. Not an extended trot.. a normal trot and a hill steep enough so the dog has to lean into it just a little and drive with his hind legs. Caveletti does a similar thing but the animal has to trot briskly and pick his feet up fairly high. 

Jumpers and dressage horses do this sort of thing to help their backs because jumping (the landing) is so very hard on the back and legs. By going up hills you improve the support of the back and help to straighten it and to make it more supple. 

All that trotting with the dog does wonders for the gut and butt lines of the owner as well!!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> If you want to 'straighten' a dog's back the best way is to strengthen the abdominal muscles by trotting up long relatively steep hills. Not an extended trot.. a normal trot and a hill steep enough so the dog has to lean into it just a little and drive with his hind legs. Caveletti does a similar thing but the animal has to trot briskly and pick his feet up fairly high.
> 
> Jumpers and dressage horses do this sort of thing to help their backs because jumping (the landing) is so very hard on the back and legs. By going up hills you improve the support of the back and help to straighten it and to make it more supple.
> 
> All that trotting with the dog does wonders for the gut and butt lines of the owner as well!!


What does backing straighten/tone? Tag backs up a lot, naturally and on cue. (Tonight he backed himself into a corner, did a 90 degree turn and continued backing. Warped little fellow.) The only thing I can see (on him) is his lower legs (think knee area) look a bit more muscular than normal. No idea if this would help a back?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

There was a (note, "A" means "one") trainer years ago who subscribed to backing horses long distances to strengthen abdominal muscles. Maybe it worked but it is pretty tough on the horses' hocks (if the horse truly collects when backing). So, if he curls his butt and backs he is likely helping his abdominal muscles. Some animals are not conditioned or supple enough for that and will actually lower their front end when backing up which STRESSES the back.

I also assume it can mess with an animal's psyche to do a LOT of reverse work. This trainer would back the horse up a couple of MILES. Knowing horses I can see all kinds of other training issues with that. Like I said.. he was the only one... and he did not get a lot of following and eventually dropped out of sight (so likely was not successful). 

Backing is usually not one of the first things you teach a young horse. They are not physically ready to do a lot of this until they can collect... I can see this being similar for dogs but dogs have a different enough structure and are naturally more supple than horses so I do not know.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> There was a (note, "A" means "one") trainer years ago who subscribed to backing horses long distances to strengthen abdominal muscles. Maybe it worked but it is pretty tough on the horses' hocks (if the horse truly collects when backing). So, if he curls his butt and backs he is likely helping his abdominal muscles. Some animals are not conditioned or supple enough for that and will actually lower their front end when backing up which STRESSES the back.
> 
> I also assume it can mess with an animal's psyche to do a LOT of reverse work. This trainer would back the horse up a couple of MILES. Knowing horses I can see all kinds of other training issues with that. Like I said.. he was the only one... and he did not get a lot of following and eventually dropped out of sight (so likely was not successful).
> 
> Backing is usually not one of the first things you teach a young horse. They are not physically ready to do a lot of this until they can collect... I can see this being similar for dogs but dogs have a different enough structure and are naturally more supple than horses so I do not know.


If I remember correctly this was a very popular methed (backing long distances) in the Qh halter horse industry back in the the 70 & 80's. I knew one trainer that put all their show horses (including weanlings and yearlings) on a treadmill backwards.........it took them a couple years but they finally figured out that they were blowing the hocks and/or stifles out of everything on the farm with this method.............gezzz go figure huh?


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