# Pics of my puppy to be



## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Hey everyone! Well in about 3 weeks I'll be getting my first puppy! Its going to be a shih tzu. I'm not sure what color I'll be getting yet as she has about 3 different colors to choose from. Here is the two pics she sent me,

















Tell me what you think of them, I think they are really cute!


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

HAVE YOU LOOKED INTO THIS BREEDER?? From what I'm seeing it's a puppy mill! Unless the breeder is only putting them in that tiny cage for pictures (Which it doesn't look like it, because it doesn't even make for a nice picture) then this is a puppy mill or else someone who just has NO idea what they're doing. True puppies like to cuddle, but they also need to be able to go off by themselves. Also, where's the mother? These puppies are what, five weeks old? 

Have you gone to visit the house? Did you meet the parents? What are they like? Do the puppies look healthy? Does the breeder have a health guarentee?? What're the temperments like?

ACK! I just looked closer at that picture...In the background you can see that there is another cage with more ShihTzu puppies, but these ones are younger.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Jaylie said:


> HAVE YOU LOOKED INTO THIS BREEDER?? From what I'm seeing it's a puppy mill! Unless the breeder is only putting them in that tiny cage for pictures (Which it doesn't look like it, because it doesn't even make for a nice picture) then this is a puppy mill or else someone who just has NO idea what they're doing. True puppies like to cuddle, but they also need to be able to go off by themselves. Also, where's the mother? These puppies are what, five weeks old?


No I haven't really looked into the breeder because I just responded to her classified ad in the local newspaper. Judging by the first picture if looks like the puppies can come and go as they please as it looks like the front is wide open. She never sent me pics of the parents, whats the big deal? She says that she breeds dogs alot so I assumed she knew what she was doing. From her ad she says they are 5 to 6 weeks old and have had their first shots and have been dewormed.



> Have you gone to visit the house? Did you meet the parents? What are they like? Do the puppies look healthy? Does the breeder have a health guarentee?? What're the temperments like?


I haven't visited the house, She lives almost two hours away. I haven't met the parents but plan to before making my decision whether or not to buy a puppy from her. The puppies look healthy to me from the pictures. She didn't mention anything about a health guarantee. Don't know about temperaments since I haven't met the pups.



> ACK! I just looked closer at that picture...In the background you can see that there is another cage with more ShihTzu puppies, but these ones are younger.


yea, she says she breeds regularly.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

I advise you NOT to buy from this breeder. Because of the fact that she breeds regularly, that gives me the feeling that she's INexperienced, but definately not experienced. If she doesn't have a health guarentee, that's a HUGE reason not to buy. Do NOT buy from this breeder. I advise you to either look for a responsible breeder, or rescue from a shelter.

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/7077-good-breeder-bad-breeder.html


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Durbkat, I'm going to be completely honest...the breeder sounds like a backyard breeder. I'm not going to nit-pic at you, just the breeder.  Here are the things that send up red flags:



> No I haven't really looked into the breeder because I just responded to her classified ad in the local newspaper. Judging by the first picture if looks like the puppies can come and go as they please as it looks like the front is wide open. She never sent me pics of the parents, whats the big deal? She says that she breeds dogs alot so I assumed she knew what she was doing. From her ad she says they are 5 to 6 weeks old and have had their first shots and have been dewormed.


 Red Flag #1 - she advertises in a newspaper. Responsible breeders almost need to do no advertising at all, and if they do advertise, it is through a breed club/shows/etc. 

R.F. #2 - she said that she breeds dogs alot. This can be good and bad. Does she have years of experience, or does she breed ten litters a year? A responsible breeder only breeds around 1-3 times a year, and normally only when their line needs to be added to. 

R.F. #3 - She didn't send you pics of the parents. Seeing the parents is important, as that is what your puppy will probably end up like. If the parents look badly bred or they have temperment issues, then the puppies will be badly bred and most likely have temperment issues. Seeing the grandparents is also very nice, but not neccessary. A responsible breeder is proud to show you what lines their puppies come from.

R.F. #4 - While having their first shots and being wormed is nice, this says nothing about health. I would ask her if the parents have been health screened (have their hips, elbows, and eyes been checked by OFA and CERF and does she have any problems with other health issues (allergies, etc.) in her lines?) If she says she has never had any problems and she has been breeding for a while...she is most likely lying. And something that isn't as important, but most reputable breeders won't let their small breed pups go to a new home till 10-12wks...but 8-9wks is fine. 



> I haven't visited the house, She lives almost two hours away. I haven't met the parents but plan to before making my decision whether or not to buy a puppy from her. The puppies look healthy to me from the pictures. She didn't mention anything about a health guarantee. Don't know about temperaments since I haven't met the pups.


R.F. #5 - While the puppies may look healthy, that has nothing to do with their genetic health. A puppy may look healthy but then suffer from elbow problems later in life, or develop allergies. The puppies from my local petstore look "healthy" but what you don't see is after they get home the owner is rushing them to the vet where I work at because they'ved developed parvo, or they have to put the dog down because it is suffering from the worst hip dyspliasia you can get. If she doesn't offer a health guarantee, *RUN *away. If she doesn't provide proof that the parents have been health tested (not just a look over by a vet that says, "Yep, they're healthy!" *RUN *away.



> yea, she says she breeds regularly.


R.F. #6 - as said earlier, breeding regularly isn't a good thing. A bitch shouldn't have to be reproducing constantly, and so if she balances that out by having more bitches...how many dogs does she have? How does she find time to take care of and compete with all of her dogs, as well as socialize and train the puppies, as well as still work? How can she afford the health testing done on all of her breeding stock, and the fees that got with showing if she doesn't work to devote time to the animals because she has so many? It just doesn't work out. If she breeds constantly and still has time and money to work and take care of the dogs, she is cutting corners somewhere and the end result could be the health and temperment of your new puppy. 

I would seriously reconsider buying from this breeder. It all could work out fine, but then again, it might end up in disaster for you and your pup. Either way you will be supporting a bad breeder. If you need help finding a reputable Shih Tzu breeder, I'm sure everyone on this forum will be more than willing to help you out. 

The puppies are very cute though (especially one with the liver colored nose  ), but cute puppies don't make healthy puppies, and just bringing home a pup from a breeder because it was cute and lead to lots of heartache.

P.S. Durbkat, you stole by avatar! ROFLMHO! Great minds think alike I guess.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Please please, listen to the above advice - take the time and find a breeder who is doing things the responsible way. 
Health guarantees are nothing without doing the proper genetic health testing on the parents (this does not mean Vet Checked). Don't get suckered in because they are cute and they are available now - a healthy pup is so worth the wait.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well I'll be willing to test this breeder out so I can tell if she is inexperienced and just breeds them for money. So give me a list of questions to ask her and I'll ask her. I already know to ask about if I can see pics of the parents but what else?

I'd hate if she was just a bad breeder because she is selling them at a price I can afford. She is selling the males for $250 and females for $300 and I'd hate to have to go to another breeder that charges anything from $300 to $450


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Durbkat said:


> Well I'll be willing to test this breeder out so I can tell if she is inexperienced and just breeds them for money. So give me a list of questions to ask her and I'll ask her. I already know to ask about if I can see pics of the parents but what else?
> 
> I'd hate if she was just a bad breeder because she is selling them at a price I can afford. She is selling the males for $250 and females for $300 and I'd hate to have to go to another breeder that charges anything from $300 to $450



just remember, you get what you pay for.....


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> I'd hate if she was just a bad breeder because she is selling them at a price I can afford. She is selling the males for $250 and females for $300 and I'd hate to have to go to another breeder that charges anything from $300 to $450


Okay, let's look at it this way - you can afford 250 for a backyard bred pup from un-tested parents, what if at one years old your pup is diagnosed with a congenital heart problem (or drops dead from a heart attack), this pup's medicine and treatments will cost you about $1000 plus for the first year, probably about $500 the next plus another $500 for vet expenses - was that pup worth you saving 100 bucks?

If you can't afford a well bred puppy, please don't line the pockets of this backyard breeder who doesn't have the best interests of the breed in mind. Adopt one from a shelter, they are well within your price range.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

They aren't back yard puppies, she has them in her house. Plus you all need to give me a list of questions to ask so I can test her and if she fails then I know to look at the $300 puppies. I can afford the $300 puppies that are also listed in the paper but that would mean that the puppy would have to wait a week before I could get it lots of toys. I may only be able to get 1 or 2 toys after getting the crate, food, collar and leash, and food and water dish. Because when I get the pups I would have $377 which would mean I'd only have $42 after getting the $35 crate that I saw at the pet store. But I imagine I'd have enough left to get the dish's and food and some toys.

The breeder also said she had the pups vet checked and they were fine.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Vet checked means NOTHING, there is no way that a vet can check a pup for genetic diseases right now. You need to ask about the parents - have they been screened for genetic defects and you want to see copies...
Backyard Breeder is a term for breeders who turn their house pets into baby machines to turn a buck. They do not have to live in the backyard to be a backyard bred pup. 
Here is something you need to think about - You say you will have to wait a week to get toys for a $300 pup, but what about the vet visits you have to make at least 2-3 days after picking up the pup? My first vet visit cost me $165 bucks and then a month later another $100 - in the first 6 months, I spent almost $1500 on vaccinations, 2 emergency trips to the vet, neutering, micro-chipping, flea and heartworm prevention, toys, bedding, collars, leashes, etc... Puppies are not cheap, what if you have an emergency? What if your puppy accidentally ingests something and it causes a blockage? Emergency surgery for Rowdy cost me $900 bucks to retrieve a sock. Will the pup have to wait a week for you to provide care? I am not trying to be mean, you just need to be aware that $300 bucks is nothing compared to what you are going to spend that first 6 months of the pups life even without emergencies - but you need to be prepared for those too.

Here is the link to the American Shih Tzu Club:
http://64.37.122.206/index2.asp
Here are the questions you should be asking your breeder...
http://64.37.122.206/Info/questionstoaskabreeder.asp?menu=Info

Here is an excerpt from this page in regards to health issues within the breed:


> The breeder should be knowledgeable about and working to control and/or eradicate conditions, including those that are particular to the breed, such as renal dysplasia, portal systemic shunt, hip and eye problems, allergies, Von Willebrands disease, thyroid disorders, and inguinal hernias. ASTC pamphlets can tell you more about breeding healthy dogs and renal dysplasia.


You want to see all of these test results on the parents...


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

No it wouldn't have to wait a week for health care. I get paid every week about $100 (I'm only 16) After I get that $300 dog I should have enough for the crate, the food, and some toys from our local grocery store which is the same toys at the pet store but alot cheaper as will be the food and water dish. Then by next weeks check I was going to take the pup to this clinic that works with low income familys and it will only cost $84 to get the dog neutered, rabie shots, DHPP shots, Bordatella shots, and to get it microchipped. Then with the week after thats check I was going to go get it checked out by the vet. Or if it needs to be done earlier I'm sure my mom will pay for the bill then I would pay her back.

Well I just sent her an email with those question and I will let you know her response.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> No it wouldn't have to wait a week for health care. I get paid every week about $100 (I'm only 16) After I get that $300 dog I should have enough for the crate, the food, and some toys from our local grocery store which is the same toys at the pet store but alot cheaper as will be the food and water dish. Then by next weeks check I was going to take the pup to this clinic that works with low income familys and it will only cost $84 to get the dog neutered, rabie shots, DHPP shots, Bordatella shots, and to get it microchipped. Then with the week after thats check I was going to go get it checked out by the vet. Or if it needs to be done earlier I'm sure my mom will pay for the bill then I would pay her back.
> 
> Well I just sent her an email with those question and I will let you know her response.


Good it sounds like you have a plan in place - and at 16, that's very mature. 
Please let us know what she says. I would hate for you to make a mistake by purchasing a dog that could potentially cause you much heartache down the road because the breeder wasn't responsible enough to screen for genetic disorders. Paying a little more up front is so worth having a healthy dog. Keep us posted.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Alright, but what kind of general genetic problems do shih tzu's normally have, or is it a dog by dog basis?


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Umm...did you read those questions I sent you, before you sent them to the breeder?  
All breeds have inheritable conditions that are specific to each breed. In my breed, the boxer, there is Cardiomyopathy, SAS, Thyriod and Hip Dysplasia. 

Here is what I posted earlier: 


> Here is the link to the American Shih Tzu Club:
> http://64.37.122.206/index2.asp
> 
> Here are the questions you should be asking your breeder...
> ...


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

OMG! Stupid me! I'm sorry, I forgot about that.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

No worries.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

So I'm assuming that these conditions only happen rarley in shih tzu's but I guess that are expensive to treat if they do occur? So if this breeder turns out to just be a novice breeder what do I ask other people? As most other people in the newspaper just list phone numbers and I would think that they'd think I was crazy asking all those questions. If a news paper isn't the best place to get a shih tzu, where is? Because I would think people who list in the news paper may only be like a family that there dogs happened to breed or something.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

First, let me say that I'm happy that you are willing to check out the breeder and if she turns out to be a "dud", to go to a responsible one.  Not many people are willing to do this, especially when they are faced with cute pictures of puppies. Thus one of the reasons petstores work so well. 

Now to answer you questions. 
*"So I'm assuming that these conditions only happen rarley in shih tzu's but I guess that are expensive to treat if they do occur?"*
They would occur rarely in properly bred Shih Tzus, but poorly bred ones almost always have something along these lines. Quoting from the book "Your Pure Bred Puppy: A Buyer's Guide (2nd addition)" by Michele Welton:
"Both parents should have OFA certificates (hips), yearly CERF (eyes), and a urine screening for renal dysplasia. Also ask about luxating patella, bladder stones, vWD, low thyroid, allergies and skin conditions, portal systemic shunt, and autoimmune hemolytic anemia in the lines."

*"So if this breeder turns out to just be a novice breeder what do I ask other people? As most other people in the newspaper just list phone numbers and I would think that they'd think I was crazy asking all those questions."*
If you wouldn't mind spending $20 on a book, I highly suggest buying the book quoted earlier. It has a section on where to buy your puppy, what to look for in a breeder, what to avoid in a breeder, what answers from a breeder are crap, what questions to ask, how to pick your puppy, etc. 
*Ask about the health certificates first. Ask what health test have been done on the sire and dam and what the ratings were for the tests. Make sure you will be able to see the proof that these test have been done.
*You can ask about the age and gender of the puppies availible. 
*Ask if the puppies are pet quality or show quality. If they are pet quality, ask why they are considered a pet quality puppy. (As long as the breeder doesn't answer that she only breeds pet quality puppies and doesn't show, any answer is ok.)
*Ask about each puppies individual temperment. If the breeder says they all act the same or doesn't really know, she hasn't spent enough time with the puppies. When I was six and a stray we had had a litter of puppies, even _I_ could tell you the individual temperments of the puppies. 
*Ask if the breeder does tempermant testing. This is just an added bonus and lets you know that they have assesed the puppies temperment. 
*Ask were the puppies were raised and what kind of socialization they have been getting. 
*Ask what the breeding on the puppies is and what their lines are. If the breeder doesn't even understand what that question means, then don't buy from them. This question is asking about the sire, dam, grand parents, titles on the ancestors, etc.
*Ask if you can meet the parents. It is common for the sire to not be on site as he may have been a stud dog, but if you can't meet him in person, pictures and videos are great. If you can't see the parents because they don't like strangers or something like that, run away.
*Ask about the sire and dams temperment. Your puppy will most likely act like them, so pick a sire and a dam that you like. 
*Ask about how big the puppies will be when full grown. If the breeder mentions "teacup" "tiny toy" or "imperial" RUN. 
*Ask why the breeder chose to breed the sire and dam together. You don't want to be told, "Well, they are just such sweet dogs and we were told they'd make such good puppies..."
*Ask how long the breeder has been involved in the breed, and how many litters they breed each year. A lot more than three and there is a problem.
*Ask what they strive for in a breeding. Do they place temperment, looks, intelligence, work eithic, or what first?
*Ask what activities they do with their dogs and whether or not they belong to any breed clubs. 
*Ask if the breeder has had any health issues with their dogs in their lines and if they screen for any other health problems that you haven't asked about.
*Ask about the health guarentee. Explore this in detail and ask about anything you aren't sure of. 
*Ask about a guarentee for hereditary problems. If your pup doesn't get sick because of worms or parvo, that health guarentee doesn't mean squat if your pup develops hip dysplisia and needs major surgery. 
*Lastly, ask about the price. If they charge you extra for papers (this is breaking AKC rules!) or change their price based on the puppies gender or color, that is a red flag. 
*Also, be prepared for the breeder to ask you tons of questions on you and your family. If the breeder doesn't ask you anything but has the attitude of, "Great, when can you pick the pup up?" something is wrong.

And you are quite right, most people in a newspaper will think you are crazy for asking all of those questions, but a responsible breeder will welcome them as they show that you know what you are doing. 

*"If a news paper isn't the best place to get a shih tzu, where is? Because I would think people who list in the news paper may only be like a family that there dogs happened to breed or something"*
If you need help searching for a reputable breeder, feel free to PM me and I'll do the best I can. A great place to start is the Shih Tzu breed club. Ads listed in the News paper are pretty much what you said, back yard breeders. Even if the litter was an oops litter, that still makes them a back yard breeder and they aren't someone you want to be giving money too. The term "Back yard breeder (BYB)" doesn't mean that the dogs are raised in the back yard, it basically means they aren't a responsible breeder. They may love their dogs to death and have happy dogs, but that isn't what makes a good breeder.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

> *Ask about how big the puppies will be when full grown. If the breeder mentions "teacup" "tiny toy" or "imperial" RUN.
> 
> *Also, be prepared for the breeder to ask you tons of questions on you and your family. *If the breeder doesn't ask you anything but has the attitude of, "Great, when can you pick the pup up?" something is wrong.*


Why?

Also I have a friend who bought a baby shih tzu a few months ago and the puppy seems just fine, do you think I should ask her who she got the dog from and see if they have any shih tzu babies for sell?


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

Please listen to the advice given. You've been given wonderful advice and I"m very happy you're acting on it.  Very very mature. Buying a poorly bred puppy now will only increase your vet bills later. So glad everything's under control. 

Hoping everything turns out okay.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

And I really appriecate all the advice, it shows people care! But the reason why I keep asking questions is because even though I know its a risk by buying a cheaper dog, but the breeder has been nice to me in the emails and the puppies are really cute. I wouldn't think someone would be allowed to sell pups that are going to inhert a disease that the parents have. I mean isn't there like some kind of rule or law from breeding a dog with genetic disorders that cause disease?


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> the breeder has been nice to me in the emails and the puppies are really cute.


Of course the puppies are cute. They're puppies! 

And of course the breeder is nice to you. He/she wants your money. If someone were about to give you $300, would you be rude to them? 

Have you looked into rescue groups? If money is an issue, it's really a bargain getting a young adult from a rescue group vs a puppy from a breeder. My Pekingese was only two years old when I adopted him, and already neutered, vaccinated, microchipped (and housebroken!) and came with a leash, collar, crate, and a couple toys, for less than your considering paying for a pup. That'd leave a lot more extra money to spoil your new dog with toys, treats, food, obedience class, etc.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Yes, I have looked into rescue and adoption. But there was no one in my state with a shih tzu needing to be rescued. But there was a one year old shih tzu at our adoption center but on their site they said it was abused before they got it and its not very trusting and would take a long time to get used to a person before it stops trying to bite you. So I figured that dog wasn't good for me because our landlord wouldn't want a mean dog in his apartment. He doesn't really want dogs at all but I promised him that he would never recieve a complaint about the dog going to the bathroom in the hallway or in front of the apartment, one of our neighbors had a shih tzu but they got tired of it after awhile and didn't take it out as often as it needed to and it went to the bathroom in their apartment and in the hallway.


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

Lorina said:


> Have you looked into rescue groups? If money is an issue, it's really a bargain getting a young adult from a rescue group vs a puppy from a breeder. My Pekingese was only two years old when I adopted him, and already neutered, vaccinated, microchipped (and housebroken!) and came with a leash, collar, crate, and a couple toys, for less than your considering paying for a pup. That'd leave a lot more extra money to spoil your new dog with toys, treats, food, obedience class, etc.



I agree with this 100%. I'm sure there are plenty of shi tzus available in your area that are young adults that need a home. I adopted my girl for $116 CDN and she came crate trained, house trained, healthy, crate, tags, collar and leash included, vaccinated, spayed, vet examined and teeth cleaned, *the works!*


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well that is what this dog comes with as well but its the part that it will bite people it doesn't trust and it taking its time to trust people that turned me off from it.


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

Check shih tzu rescue. They'll have rescues in your area, trust me. Dogs are so over populated it won't be difficult to find one that suits your lifestyle. Also, do you need a purebred? Would you put into consideration a Shih tzu mix, or a small dog of unknown breed? Mixes make great pets, and they're generally even healthier then purebreds.

Try here: It's all small dogs needing homes. http://www.shihtzuandfurbabyrescue.com/


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

You got great advice. Please look into rescue. You could ask vets in your area to keep an eye out or maybe they will already know of someone that does all breed rescue. The worst thing about giving these people your money is that the dogs they breed continue to suffer. No body that loves dogs wants that to happen.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Durbkat said:


> I mean isn't there like some kind of rule or law from breeding a dog with genetic disorders that cause disease?


uhhh, no, the law doesn't care one way or the other what people are breeding (and neither does the registries, or they, themselves would have it manditory that all parents have to be tested b/4 any litters are born to them)......this is why the puppy mills keep right on trucking along......


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well that sucks.. I think they should make it against the law to breed dogs that have a genetic disease's like they should make it against the law for inbreeding in humans. lol

Well the breeder just emailed me back after I sent her the questions and here was her response,


> #1 no I have been doing this for 7 year and I have not had any problems #2yes #3yes but I give 72hr. yes to all #3
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael ******
> To: Loretta Cook
> ...


So judging by what she said and with the health guarantee, would you all agree this is a good breeder?


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

She doesn't test the line? I still don't like her response. And you have to realize, she could be lying about #2 and #3. I strongly advise you to look into local breeders, but DEFINATELY check out the site that GreyhoundGirl posted. Mix breeds are often very pretty and unique, and as she said, they're generally healthier than purebreds.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well if she lied about question #2 then I'll ask to see pics and for her to describe how the dogs are. Also if she lied about #3 I could take her to court because I would have a signed statement to prove that she agreed to refunding the money or by letting me exchange the dog or if she refuse's to sign it I'll turn around and leave.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Well that sucks.. I think they should make it against the law to breed dogs that have a genetic disease's like they should make it against the law for inbreeding in humans. lol
> 
> Well the breeder just emailed me back after I sent her the questions and here was her response,
> 
> ...



He** no, this is not a good responsible breeder, She does NO genetic testing by admission!!! Keep looking and if you are on a very limited budget I highly suggest rescue. A dog from a reputable breeder can and should be $1000 +. These pups from responsible breeders are of course expensive, it costs a lot of money to do all the genetic testing that needs to be done, add on stud fees, vet care, and all the immense hard work involved in properly rearing and socializing a litter and $1000 begins to sound like a steal. Of course after you've invested in the pups original purchase price there's still hundreds of dollars in vaccinations, quality food, crates, bowls, toys, chewie stuff, collars and leads, enzymatic cleaners, etc. the list goes on and on, this is all if you're lucky enough (vigilant enough?) not to have any unforseen expenses such as sock consumption and subsequent emergency surgery, a fall, wierd skin conditions etc.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

For starters, not doing any testing is a big red flag. She's been doing it for seven years? Big whoop. That's only about half the life span of a Shih Tzu. Her oldest pups are still young themselves. What about health problems that don't show until they're older?

And any good breeder loves to talk about their dogs. There wouldn't be one word answers to your questions. 

My vet personally recommends not having a pup health checked until it's been living with the new owner for about a week. There's a lot of problems that could be in the incubation stage and not show at 48 - 72 hours after taking ownership, like kennel cough, parvo, etc.

Where (generally speaking) are you located? Many of us have connections with rescues, and may be able to recommend one. Most rescue dogs are not fearful and snappy like the one you described. Many rescues would not even consider placing a dog with behavioral issues.

Also keep in mind that while a rescue might be located a little ways away from you, many have foster homes and volunteers spread throughout neighboring counties and states. What this means is that even if their headquarters aren't nearby, they may still be able to adopt to you. I'm from Pennsylvania and adopted a New York dog fostered in New Jersey. A friend of mine works with an Aussie rescue that does adoptions and transports all over the country. So just because there might not be a Shih Tzu listed in your town doesn't mean there isn't a great one just waiting for a wonderful, loving owner like you.


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

GreyhoundGirl said:


> Check shih tzu rescue. They'll have rescues in your area, trust me. Dogs are so over populated that it won't even be difficult to find one that suits your lifestyle. Also, do you really need a purebred? Would you put into consideration a Shih tzu mix, or a small dog of unknown breed? Mixes make great pets, and they're generally even healthier then purebreds.
> 
> Try here: It's all small dogs needing homes. http://www.shihtzuandfurbabyrescue.com/


Sorry to quote myself but have you checked this out? Lots of adorable shih tzu and shih tzu mixes available.  I don't really know what aera you're in, but here are a few more sites...

The already-mentioned shih tzu fur baby rescue: http://www.shihtzuandfurbabyrescue.com/


Small breed rescue: http://www.smalldogrescue.org/availabledogs/

small dogs big hearts: http://www.sbret.com/rescues.htm
(My opinion doesn't really matter about this... but who thinks Pearl is the cutest thing ever?!  )


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Lorina, I live in KY.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Yep she's a backyard breeder...A responsible breeder would gladly show you results from the health testing and thank you for asking. Keep looking.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Durbkat, I PM'd you.  Hopefully that helps!


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Thanks for the link, but those are double coated shih tzus and I don't think I could afford the grooming bills.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Durbkat said:


> Thanks for the link, but those are double coated shih tzus and I don't think I could afford the grooming bills.


 I PM'd you again, but I'll post my reply here as well.

The dogs in the pictures on the website had long hair because they are show dogs and that is the clip needed for a show. Pet dogs are often clipped down to lower the need of having to brush the coat out so often.
After doing a bit of research, I was wrong in telling you that Shih Tzu's aren't a double coated breed. However, a double coat or not, it won't matter if you get your Shih Tzu groomed. Here is a quote from the breed standard:


> Coat
> Coat - Luxurious, double-coated, dense, long, and flowing. Slight wave permissible. Hair on top of head is tied up. Fault: Sparse coat, single coat, curly coat. Trimming - Feet, bottom of coat, and anus may be done for neatness and to facilitate movement. Fault: Excessive trimming.


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## Haidden (Apr 2, 2007)

Also when were those pictures taken? It seems like she had cut off part of the date so it wouldnt show. Those shihtzu look big to be just 5 weeks old.. When i got mine at 8 weeks he was probably that same size. 

Here is a picture of my shihtzu at 8 weeks...










and yes they are double coated. My shihtzu is black / brindle with a light undercoat


.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Huh, the dates aren't cut off, I can see the whole date. I believe the pics were taken this month.

Well great news! I found a better breeder. I sent her an email and here is her response which really made me think she was a fantastic breeder.


> HI Micheal,
> Well, I would tell you alot more than just price, is this for a pet?
> Have you had a shih tzu before? Do you have small children at home? That would help me know what you are wanting and needing to fit your lifestyle, and if you have any preferences you like or dislike?
> Where are you located? We are in Shelbyville, Ky, between Louisville and Lexington.
> ...


I really liked the fact that she has the health guarantee and test the lines and that she would be willing to work with me on the price. So what do you guys think, is she a keeper?


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Sounds like a keeper to me! (  ) I love the fact that she has had lots of experience with the breed, does genetic health testing, has a health guarentee, screens homes, breeds only three times a year, and just seem knowledgable about the breeds in general. She also sounds like she is willing to help out with anything you might have issues with which is an important quality in a breeder. 

Now doesn't that reply sound much better than the reply you got back from the other breeder? 

And I must say, if/when you do pick out a puppy, we must see lots of pictures! (That is my only requirement for helping...lots of puppy pictures! lol  )


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

I think you've found a very good breeder...Good for you! You might want to edit her phone # out of the post though.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Yea, well if she will be willing to work on the price then I'll be so freaking happy!!! 

I will defianlty post loads of pics, just gotta borrow my friends digi cam. 

Would you guys wanna see the pics she sent me of the fathers of the two litters? 

And yes its a lot better than the last one, all the other breeder did was tell me the price told me how many of the puppies she had and included those two pics you saw and thats it. lol


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Oh, yes, seeing the sires would be WONDERFUL!  Post away! lol


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Alright, here I believe is the father of the litter I should be getting,









And I believe this is the father of the next litter that will be ready on the 22nd of july,


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Heh, yep, they're dust mops!  

Very nice looking dogs. I can't imagine how she keeps up with all of that hair.


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## SunSiberians (May 7, 2007)

Wow, I think this is so wonderful! I've read through this whole thread, and I'm so glad that you decided on looking for a better breeder. This one sounds wonderful. I hope you guys can work something out! 

Show us an many pics as you have! 



blackrose said:


> I can't imagine how she keeps up with all of that hair.


Yeah, no kidding! I had a hard enough time keeping my long haired guinea pig tangle free! >.<


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Me neither, she must have trained the parents to mop the hair up into a pile or something. lol

I am defiantly gonna have to keep the pup trimmed up because I am allergic to long hair animals. lol


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

This is wonderful! Doesn't everyone love happy endings? I think the forum needs a huge congrats! This is what dogforums is out here for, helping people make good descisions for the health and wellbeing of dogs.  

Everyone has done an excellent job and I'm just so happy for the way this has turned out. This is a much better breeder then the previous breeder, I love the sounds of the e-mail. The sire is just beautiful. <3 Also sounds like this breeder ereally knows shih tzus and really cares about dogs. Everything that should be looked for in a breeder. 

So excited for puppy pictures!

And, I have to thank you most of all, for you acted on our advice, and your puppy will be healthier for it. 

Smiles all around!


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Alrighty, thanks for the help guys!


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Lol! Beautiful dogs. They have silkier hair than I do...


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

YAY! I'm so happy that you found a good breeder! Congrats on getting a (Well bred and healthy!) puppy! And just think...If you hadn't come here, then you would have bought a poorly bred puppy that might end up dying (Poor puppy!! =,-( Bad breeder!) and all the while you would be filling the pockets of that BYB. 

Kudos to listening to the advice here! Alot of people wouldn't do that.


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## Valkman (Jun 11, 2007)

What a great thread and congrats Durbkat on all the great advice you got and the breeder you found. That first one was very shaky but the second looks like gold!


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Yep, I just hope she will be willing to work on the price with me and if she can't I may have to find someone else.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Yep, I just hope she will be willing to work on the price with me and if she can't I may have to find someone else.


Hopefully she will, just be honest with her on what you can afford - and ember a healthy pup is worth the wait and the extra $$$, so if you can't afford the pups that she has on the ground right now, perhaps you can wait for the other litter thats due in July - that will give some extra time to save.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well bad news, she said she can't go lower than $600 and I can't afford that. I'll just find a good breeder in my city. I'll still be getting it on the 15th so I'll post plenty of pics.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Were your parents unable, or unwilling, to help you pay the extra cash? Or is the breeder willing to let you make payment plans (not something a breeder would normally do, but hey, it never hurts to ask). 

That is a bummer, but 600$ is actually a very good price for a well bred puppy. 

 If you need any help finding another breeder, don't hesitate to ask.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

My parents are unable to help me pay for it. They said if I wanted the dog it was going to be my responsibility, care wise and financial wise.

But I did ask her if she knew of any other breeders that sold cheaper than her and she said that she didn't and that all the people she knew sold for as much as her or more.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Why not wait and save the money? Why is it so important you get the dog _right now_?

...I have a sinking feeling you will just go back to finding a backyard breeder.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

breeder wrote....


> I am enclosing a photo of the father of both litters, as well as a typical pet photo I just got yesterday.


i am assuming by the above that the 1st photo you posted is the sire to BOTH litters and the 2nd photo is a pet quality Shih Tzu that she had (possibly) bred and the owner sent her a pic of it.....

but, i'm glad to see that you did more searching.....even if you have to wait a little while, it would be much better to get a pup from some one like her than the first "breeder"......


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Why not wait and save the money? Why is it so important you get the dog _right now_?
> 
> ...I have a sinking feeling you will just go back to finding a backyard breeder.


Because first of all $750 is an outrageous price and it would take me to this time next year to get that kind of money.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Because first of all $750 is an outrageous price and it would take me to this time next year to get that kind of money.


Maybe it's worth the wait...or maybe you haven't learned anything at all.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well there are people that scan the genetics of the dogs and charge cheaper, they sell for like $350 and me and my parents can afford that.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Because first of all $750 is an outrageous price and it would take me to this time next year to get that kind of money.


This is very sad, I've been following this thread and was so excited to hear you found a breeder that sounded responsible. And $600 that she lowered the price to is CHEAP for a well bred dog. If you have your heart set on getting a puppy and won't invest the time and effort to find a rescued shih-Tzu which would fit into your budget, you should do the responsible thing and wait the year if that's what it takes to save the money to deal with this breeder.Going out and buying a $350 puppy is only supporting yet another BYB.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Well there are people that scan the genetics of the dogs and charge cheaper, they sell for like $350 and me and my parents can afford that.


I highly doubt it.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Why do you doubt that boxmein?


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

NO! Haven't you learned anything? Save the money and buy from this breeder, or better yet...Find a rescue! Rescues cost around one hundred dollars, sometimes as low as fifty. And this breeder has done WONDERS for you, lowering the price that low. Any lower, and she would be LOSING money. She probably doesn't care if she makes money, but she doesn't want to lose it either.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well I'll find a breeder that scans for genetic disease's, I will ask to see proof. Does anyone have a picture of what the proper form looks like so I know it isn't a fake?


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

May I ask why you won't rescue?? Did you look at the links that GreyhoundGirl posted? Those are very cool links, full of dogs and sometimes puppies that need homes. How would you like to be raised in a cage with a mom who's teats are almost sucked dry, then go to a crappy home where you're abused, then end up in another cage, with people turning their noses up at you because you're a "pound dog?"


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I never said I didn't want to rescue but the links that greyhoundgirl posted are out of state and our car is old and our mechanic said that it wouldn't be a good idea to go on very long trips. Also the dogs at our pound are either dogs that have behavior problems or they are to large for an apartment.


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## mattmania843 (May 6, 2007)

Edit: Honestly, you cant afford 600 dollars for a dog? You know how high the vet bills are in the puppy years right? There going to total more than that. If you cant afford 600 dollars to get the dog I wonder what kind of vet your going to get. I think you shouldn't get a dog because its obvious your not ready for one at this point.

Edit x2: you will also have to FEED THE DOG (If you didn't know that,and that costs money as well, the dog will need toys, a bed, and a lot of things.


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

The links I posted were just some examples. Do a google search for your area. I assure you there will be small dogs available in your area that don't have any behavior problems.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I saw quite a few rescues on Petfinder in your state that had Shih Tzus. Some were puppies or young adults.

Bluegrass Shih Tzu Rescue Inc.

SBRKY Small Breed Rescue of Kentucky 

I'm not sure where in KY you're located, closer to OH or TN, so...

Purebred Rescue Organization of Ohio, Inc. 

Shih Tzu and Furbaby Rescue 

Ohio Fuzzy Pawz Shih Tzu Rescue 

Small Breed Rescue of East TN 

TOY BREED AND ASIAN DOG RESCUE. Precious Paws Peke & Tzu Rescue 

Have you contacted any of the rescues? Many don't have every dog listed. A lot of dogs never get listed because they get adopted beforehand by people who've contacted the rescue, got preapproved to adopt, and were on a waiting list for the right dog for them.

When I applied to the Pekingese rescue where I got Beavis, I originally applied for a 4 year old silver female. She wasn't good with cats, so that wasn't going to work out for me. But I stayed in touch with the rescue, filled out an application, had it approved, had the necessary vet reference and home visit checks done, and when the right dog became available, he was mine.

Many of the dogs are not located at the exact location the rescue is headquartered. They typically live in foster homes, and the volunteers are typically willing to meet you halfway or arrange transport for the dogs.

But honestly, if you live with your parents and they're unwilling or unable to help you with the dog's expenses, it's best to wait. A Shih Tzu can easily live 15-18 years, or more. Do you know where you'll be when you're 20, 25 or 30? What's going to happen to the dog when you're off to college? What about when you try to get your first appartment and every place that allows pets costs twice as much and requires a huge security deposit?

It's great that you love dogs, but think really hard about whether or not you're in the right place in your life to have one. You can always volunteer with a rescue or shelter to get your "fix" of being around dogs. Offer to walk them, feed them, groom them, clean up after them. You'll be doing a great service for those dogs, and would be the first to know when a pooch that you'd love became available.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

mattmania843 said:


> Edit: Honestly, you cant afford 600 dollars for a dog? You know how high the vet bills are in the puppy years right? There going to total more than that. If you cant afford 600 dollars to get the dog I wonder what kind of vet your going to get. I think you shouldn't get a dog because its obvious your not ready for one at this point.
> 
> Edit x2: you will also have to FEED THE DOG (If you didn't know that,and that costs money as well, the dog will need toys, a bed, and a lot of things.


I'm taking my dog to a vet clinic and most places set up payment plans and I'm going to be working more days starting next week so that means more money.

Also a regular size bag of dog food is only about $8 and toys don't cost that much and his crate will be his bed and I already got the crate.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

But what if the puppy ends up swallowing a sock? For a Shih Tzu especially, that can be alot of damage, and therefore would cost a ton for surgery. And as Lorina said, Shih Tzu's live a long time, and how do you know where you'll be in five years? Ten? Even if you find someplace where you can keep a dog, what will you do while you're at college? Since I'm a kid also, I do the puppy raising, since I want a dog but can't have on for 13+ years. You don't want a big dog, and I've never heard of puppy raising a small dog, but you can get a job pet-sitting small dogs, or volunteering at a shelter or vet, and then you would be getting that dog-fix without actually having the financial responsibility. I pet sit, and I have a Schnauzer that comes here about once a month, sometimes two days, sometimes twelve days, and I LOVE the little guy. He's great with puppies, (He reminds me of the "grandfatherly" type...Playing with them gently, and being VERY patient with them.) and then I have a Maltese/Toy Poodle mix, (His owner introduced him as a "malti-poo.") and he's also a sweetheart. He comes more often then the Schnauzer...Sometimes spending two weeks out of a month here. I got these two dogs by simply placing a simple ad in the paper! I suggest maybe trying this before you get a dog.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> I'm going to be working more days starting next week so that means more money.


Which also means less time to spend with your dog. Then when school starts back up again, you'll have even less time, since you'll still need to be working to support the dog.

It's a lot of work, even more with a puppy, which is why it's important to have the full support of everyone in the household.


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## ToysHaveMyHeart (May 9, 2007)

mattmania843 said:


> Edit: Honestly, you cant afford 600 dollars for a dog? You know how high the vet bills are in the puppy years right?


Muttmania is right, at the vet clinic I worked at, the puppies definately carried the highest bills overall, then were the seniors and lastly the 
adolescents (usually the unneutered roaming types)-The order would probably vary with location, but I think it is safe to assume that the the pups would still be one of the top two. Puppies are more suseptable to illness, intestinal blockages/damage, injury, and then there are routine costs like vaccinations, spay/neuter, flea and tick prevention, and heartworm prevention. I don't know about everyone else's are, but the base examination fee is $35-$45 (keep in mind that this is just to SEE a vet), any type of treatment, and medicine is extra. And while vets offer payment plans, there are quite a few that charge interest and put a cap on the tab that you are allowed to rack up-so you might want to ask the vets in your area if that is the case.
Keep in mind also that a pup is a blank slate. You have to teach it how to behave. In the younger months, up through the first year (or longer depending on the amount of training) you have to watch your pup like a hawk as they get into things. It's much like having to watch a toddler that can run, jump up, and leap. They also have the potential to be extremely destructive. I think you had mentioned earlier that you would not be willnig to work with an older dog that has behavioral issues, a pup is (in most cases) so much more work than that!
Now I could type a lot more than this but I am trying to remain civil  . Don't take offense to any of my comments, I am only trying to help. Unfortunately, I have seen far too many pups that had to suffer, die, or were euthanized because their owners did not know what they were getting into. My opinion is with the other people on this board, you are probably not ready for a puppy just yet. You may want to get a savings account for your pup and set aside a portion of each paycheck to help save up some funds.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> My opinion is with the other people on this board, you are probably not ready for a puppy just yet. You may want to get a savings account for your pup and set aside a portion of each paycheck to help save up some funds.


Exactly.

I'm an adult, living on my own for 10+ years, own my own home, happily married, decent job and all that stuff, and I waited and saved up for a dog. I find it to be a huge red flag that you don't even have a breeder, rescue or dog picked out, and you're determined (as per your sig line) that you're getting a dog in 9 days. 

I waited about two years from when I first decided "I want a dog" to actually getting mine. It's a huge responsibility, and I wanted to do it right. I probably put more effort into preparing for and looking for the right dog for me than I did my husband.  

Heck, the way I look at it, a dog's a bigger responsibility than marriage. The dog is *100%* dependent on you. My husband will survive if I don't cook him dinner. He can take care of his own bathroom needs. The dog? Not so much.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

I received Chloe for free and so far she has cost me about....*adds furiously in head, sighs, then takes out sheet of paper and a pen* $500, and I get a reduced fee for vet visits, free grooming, and I was buying things (the kennel, collars, leashes, dog house, etc.) used, thus cheaper. That price isn't including her spay or her heart worm and flea meds (add another $150-$200). I've only had her for a little over a month. 
So if you can afford the first month of a dog, you can afford to save up for a month and purchase a dog for "not so cheap".

However, I have a job and am going to be starting my senior year of highschool this fall and I'm fully confident in my ability to take care of Chloe. That all depends on the person. I know some people who have had dogs in college and did it extreamly well, and I know some other people who I wouldn't want to own a dog even if they had won the lottery so they didn't need to work or go to school. 



> My husband will survive if I don't cook him dinner. He can take care of his own bathroom needs. The dog? Not so much.


 Are you sure about that?


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Lorina said:


> Which also means less time to spend with your dog. Then when school starts back up again, you'll have even less time, since you'll still need to be working to support the dog.
> 
> It's a lot of work, even more with a puppy, which is why it's important to have the full support of everyone in the household.


Right, but I will get up early to take it for a walk in the morning and my mom is willing to take it for walks during the day and I'll only be working on the weekends so I will have plenty of time with the dog. Also in our county we never get homework because the schools are to cheap to buy enough books for everyone to take home. I'm sure my mom will be able to help me on the vet bills but she just doesn't have over $300 laying around to add onto my $300 to get a $600 dog.




Jaylie said:


> But what if the puppy ends up swallowing a sock? For a Shih Tzu especially, that can be alot of damage, and therefore would cost a ton for surgery. And as Lorina said, Shih Tzu's live a long time, and how do you know where you'll be in five years? Ten? Even if you find someplace where you can keep a dog, what will you do while you're at college? Since I'm a kid also, I do the puppy raising, since I want a dog but can't have on for 13+ years. You don't want a big dog, and I've never heard of puppy raising a small dog, but you can get a job pet-sitting small dogs, or volunteering at a shelter or vet, and then you would be getting that dog-fix without actually having the financial responsibility. I pet sit, and I have a Schnauzer that comes here about once a month, sometimes two days, sometimes twelve days, and I LOVE the little guy. He's great with puppies, (He reminds me of the "grandfatherly" type...Playing with them gently, and being VERY patient with them.) and then I have a Maltese/Toy Poodle mix, (His owner introduced him as a "malti-poo.") and he's also a sweetheart. He comes more often then the Schnauzer...Sometimes spending two weeks out of a month here. I got these two dogs by simply placing a simple ad in the paper! I suggest maybe trying this before you get a dog.


I don't have clothes laying around on the floor. I have already puppy proofed the house.


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> I'm sure my mom will be able to help me on the vet bills but she just doesn't have over $300 laying around to add onto my $300 to get a $600 dog.


Do you have enough money to buy a $300 dog and then have to pay at least $2000 to fix the diseases it has because it was bred poorly by a BYB? Instead of buying a healthy $600 dog that will only need its vaccinations. 

Honestly, $600 is very cheap for a healthy puppy. You'll make up the extra $300 very quickly from vet bills.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Do you think I should email this breeder that is selling the dogs for $600 and see if she would accept $300 and then I make weekly payments or are most breeders like her not going to deal with payments?


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

That is a very good idea. S/He sounds like a very reasonable person, (judging by going from a 1000 puppy to a 600 puppy. ) 

 Hope you have luck with the payment plan.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Actually it was from a $750 to a $600 puppy.

I just sent her an email and I'll let you know what she says.


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

Oh, sorry I thought I'd read 1000. It's still very nice of her to work on the prices with you.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Yea, I agree.


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## gizmobaby (Apr 30, 2007)

Actually, I disagree with the advertisement. My breeder advertised my puppy and she actually knew what she was doing. I don't think advertisement is a big role in this, because obviously breeding dogs for some people are hobbies and some just happen to profit out of it.

However, all the other red flags are definitely NOT okay and I totally agree with..something you must look out for.

The first picture concerned me because it looked like something you would see in the pet store..doesn't look too clean and the shredded paper isn't appealing. Knowing my pup, he would have eaten that paper in a heartbeat..something definitely you don't want around a puppy.

Although I find pictures of puppies "posing" in front of a neutral background (ie: toy dogs in cups or whatever) just as iffy as puppies in pens such as that, it's a good sign to see puppies near their mom (to show the mom as well) or in a better suited environment. 

Who knows if she is a puppy mill person or not...I say you visit her and ask her questions. It is still your choice whether or not you will buy the pups. Just make sure that they are not sick and she can answer all your questions, because otherwise, you might get problems with your puppy..something you definitely DONT want! Puppies are expensive enough as it is.

------------

If you want a puppy right away and know you can be responsible, then go for it!  All smiles here. I actually got my puppy out of impulse and for the first few days, I was very frustrated and second-guessed my decision in buying one so soon. I got my act straight though and now, I am very please to have him! I don't know what I would do without his goofy self. 

And I don't think you should depend on prices to know whether or not your pup will be healthy. My pup was sold to me for sale, since he was the last one. His sister was $450 (overheard them talking) and Im sure that was probably deducted..they sell their dogs mostly for $500+. He was sold to me for $200. He came as a very healthy puppy! With of course normal exceptions, like worms (all puppies go thru with that and it's something you can fix). The only problem with him now is that he chews on things he shouldnt or eats things he reallyr eally shouldnt. 

I don't think dogs should be sold for such an expensive price. But I guess that's a good thing, because then there might be more dogs at the pound...but in my opinion, I wouldn't rely on prices to give you the best quality dog. It'd be sad to know you got ripped off.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I know, I'm going to ask to see the parents so I can get an idea of how the puppies are going to act when they grow up. Also is there anything else I should check for in the puppy, I know its a good sign if they come up and greet you but what else?


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I have to echo the cost of a puppy after the initial purchase price. We got Uallis on May 17th and have spent about a $1000 dollars since on him. 

As for things that haven't been mentioned...Have you asked how many litters the female has had before? If this is the last litter, what are they planning for the female after? Are they going to keep her and let her live her life out with them?


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

No I didn't ask.


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## Haidden (Apr 2, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Well there are people that scan the genetics of the dogs and charge cheaper, they sell for like $350 and me and my parents can afford that.


Thought you said your parents wouldnt be helping you in the below quote?




Durbkat said:


> My parents are unable to help me pay for it. They said if I wanted the dog it was going to be my responsibility, care wise and financial wise.


------------------


When I moved out of my parents I got my own dog, which was a shihtzu. I moved out to go to a different college and I got an apartment near that college. It cost 200 dollars pet deposit fee that you dont get back. That is cheap, alot of apartment places cost around 400 pet deposit that you won't get back or ever see again. 

A small bag of good dog food, canidae, innova, etc will cost you around 14 dollars for the smallest bag. I read that you said 8 dollars somewhere, that would be in more of lines of purina puppy chow, which isn't good at all. On top of that you have the vaccination's your puppy has to get which will cost around 70-100 a visit, which can be 3-4 visits just for vaccinations. Then you have to buy toys, cage, treats, flea and tick medications (which is around 75 dollars for 6 month) heartworm (around 30 dollars for 6 months) which add up fast also. All this money will be coming out fairly fast also. 

You also have grooming, nail clipping, bathing which ranges from groomer to groomer but it costs and adds up quiet a bit also.

Its just something to think about. The first couple weeks you will be spending 700-900 dollars on top of the money you buy the dog with. If you get a bad bred puppy then your expenses will be off the chart. If it would take you to next year to save 300 more dollars just to get the well bred shihtzu then that is something within its self, cause how will you afford everything up above if would take you a year to get 300 more dollars?

Just my opinion. If you think your ready then that is your decision to make, just make sure your financial limitations will not effect the dog. Good Luck to you =)


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## mattmania843 (May 6, 2007)

So who are you getting this puppy from? Im not exactly clear, and I said it once and Ill say it again, Im sure youll be a great pet owner, but i think your financial limitations will severely effect the dog. I would just go to the shelter..


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

Are you sure you should be getting a puppy? I'm sorry, I don't mean to nit-pick, but if you can't afford the pet, how will you afford everything else that comes along with owning a pet? I have two dogs, one cat and two chinchillas. I don't really even like thinking about how much I've spent on them (not including initial costs), but I know it has ALL been worth it. 

My Bulldog had to have surgery to open his nares and throat more due to breathing issues. The total cost: $600.00.

My Japanese Chin had to go to the emergency vet because last week he wasn't eating or drinking for more than twelve hours. Turns out he had tapeworms. The total cost: $127.00.

My Bulldog had to be neutered as does pretty much every dog. The total cost: $266.00.

My Bulldog, Japanese Chin, Cat and Chinchillas like to eat. Total monthly cost: $125.00.

...They also like to have toys. Total cost: $600+ (includes crates, beds, toys, cat tree, etc. I think it's been about $600. Could easily be more).

My Bulldog was stung by a bee and had a bad reaction at eight months of age. Total cost to treat him: $87.50.

My mom had a dog when I was eleven years old. He came down with a terrible disease: immune-mediated thrombocytopenia. Total cost to treat him: $5,627.00. He died during treatment.

These are just some examples as to how other costs come into play with owning not only a dog, but really, any animal. Granted, some people only take their animals to the vet at the LAST minute to avoid spending money, but if you are truly responsible, it can get expensive. Of course, like I said, it's worth it!

Just something to think about. I'm not saying you're not able to care for a puppy...I'm sure you are...but please consider the other costs that come along with dog ownership. Don't think your dog will never get sick-- it almost definitely will. 

Keep us updated.

-Andrea and the Gang.


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## Haidden (Apr 2, 2007)

TheChinClique said:


> My Bulldog had to have surgery to open his nares and throat more due to breathing issues. The total cost: $600.00.
> 
> Bulldog had to be neutered as does pretty much every dog. The total cost: $266.00.


Little off topic but o well =)

My girlfriend has a bulldog and she had to get eye surgery done and that cost around 650 dollars.

Question for you though ChinClique why did the neuter cost so much for you, i guess depends on the area you live in but almsot 300 dollars for a neuter?


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

Haidden said:


> Little off topic but o well =)
> 
> My girlfriend has a bulldog and she had to get eye surgery done and that cost around 650 dollars.
> 
> Question for you though ChinClique why did the neuter cost so much for you, i guess depends on the area you live in but almsot 300 dollars for a neuter?


Well, I didn't get him neutered until 2005...he was already two years old. I guess that might have something to do with it? He also has to have special anesthesia support due to his breathing issues. He still has problems even after the surgery. Poor guy  

Although...I am looking at my mom's dog's records (for Beau, American Eskimo Dog) and his neuter was almost as much. The breakdown is:

IN HOUSE PREANESTETIC CHEM6: $47.00
CASTRATION CANINE 21-50 LBS: $67.00
ANESTHESIA INHALANT: $44.00
IN-PATIENT CARE CANINE: $33.00
ANESTHESIA SUPPORT: $23.00

TOTAL: $218.00

I guess my vet is just expensive?


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## Lucky_13 (Jul 4, 2007)

i was reading through the thread and i know i'm late and you already found a good breeder and your getting your puppy on the 9th, but i realized nobody ever responded when you asked "why?" to the below question.



> Quote:
> *Ask about how big the puppies will be when full grown. If the breeder mentions "teacup" "tiny toy" or "imperial" RUN.
> 
> **Also, be prepared for the breeder to ask you tons of questions on you and your family. If the breeder doesn't ask you anything but has the attitude of, "Great, when can you pick the pup up?" something is wrong. *
> ...


if the breeder doesn't ask you any questions about your family, home, and expirience, there is a problem because any reputable breeder wants to make sure their dogs are going to a good home where they will be properly cared for.


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## Haidden (Apr 2, 2007)

Since you got a puppy coming on the 9th, did you decide to go with the original breeder or did you find a different one in the KY area?

Guessing you are picking him up tomorrow?


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Lucky, I was asking why as referring to if the breeder mentions "teacup" "tiny toy" or "imperial".

Well I got the dog today, went with the orignal person and she was more professional than I thought. She had the health guarantee written out and had me sign and she had some paper from the CKC that she said needed to be filled out and mailed off. 

Pics!!!!
















These are from the car ride home ^

Well the puppy is doing good. It's already pee'd and pooped on the carpet which my mom said she wasn't to happy about then it pooped on the puppy pad so I praised it and gave it a treat. Then it pooped on the carpet so I rushed and cleaned that up before my mom came in. He sure is a handful. lol Oh! Is it normal for it to freak out when I have the leash on? Cause I have the leash on to keep it on the pad and when it tries to walk off it I hold onto the leash and he starts freaking out by whining and thrashing. Is that normal for a puppy with its first time with the leash?


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## mattmania843 (May 6, 2007)

I cant believe you got it from the original person. Have you not learned anything through your 300 posts on this forum, you are not ready for a dog, you are to unstable.  But you were so insistent of getting your dog on July 9th and you didn't even have your mind made up until a couple days before.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

I can't believe you went with the original person either! I'm telling you, you are either going to pay WAAY more for that dog than you would for the six hundred dollar one, OR if you don't, it's going to end up crippled or dead. 

But, I guess the deed is already done, so I will help you. Yes, it's normal for a puppy to thrash on the leash. My first puppy, Jaylie never had a problem with it, but Blitz did. What you should do is get a lightweight leash, and let Snoopy drag it around. Then practice picking it up, and give him a treat. Lengthen the time you hold it (And it has to be loose.) until you can take him for a walk without him thrashing. 

Also, how often are you taking him to the training pad? You should bring him over every hour. Is he on a feeding schedule? Put him on one if he's not. Then you will know when he will need to go. He should not have been given the chance to go so many times on the carpet. That will get him used to that feel, and he won't like to go on the pad.


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## Haidden (Apr 2, 2007)

Jaylie said:


> I can't believe you went with the original person either! I'm telling you, you are either going to pay WAAY more for that dog than you would for the six hundred dollar one, OR if you don't, it's going to end up crippled or dead.



Saddens me also, cant believe you went to the original breeder.

Anyways, best thing to do is feed him 3 times a day until he is around 6 months old. I feed my puppy when I get up before I go to work, when i get home from work usually around 4 then feed him around 8. He just turned 6 months old so in next couple weeks I will only be feeding him twice a day. I feed him Canidae All Life Stages.

Your mom needs to get used to the accidents, they happen and will happen. You take your eye of the pup for one minute he can have an accident, its part of the responsibility. I didn't use puppy pads with mine because I think they are a waste. I took him out every hour sometimes every 30 minutes and he was house trained by basically 4 months. All though given he was and still is a puppy he has an accident here and there but very rarely, maybe once a week if that. Now it seems like never. 

I know your excited about your new puppy but with that new puppy becomes great responsibility and I wish you luck. I wouldve waited to go to the other breeder myself though =)

Congratz though and hope you and your puppy have loads of fun.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Hey Durbkat. That is the prettiest pup. What did you name him/her?

I am very proud of you for making a effort to own a puppy, No matter where you got it from, You have him/her now. SO CONGRATULATIONS! Have lots and lots of fun. Love her/him and you will recieve it back 2 fold.YEAY FOR YOUR NEW PUPPY!!!!!!!!!!


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Now you all don't need to be hounding me like this. You all said genetic disease's show up within 1 to 2 years of life right? Well she says she keeps in touch with the people she sells them to and they never said a dog had gotten a genetic disease. So please if you don't have anything to say but about what choice I've made then please don't flame my topic.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Now you all don't need to be hounding me like this. You all said genetic disease's show up within 1 to 2 years of life right? Well she says she keeps in touch with the people she sells them to and they never said a dog had gotten a genetic disease. So please if you don't have anything to say but about what choice I've made then please don't flame my topic.


I won't flame your topic. But I am very disappointed, so many people offered up their advice and experience to help you make a responsible choice and what do you do? You ignored it. Whether you will pay a price or not is still up in the air, but shame on you just the same. You gave into your need for instant gratification and kept this backyard breeder in business yet one more litter. Again, shame on you - you knew better.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

At this point...Have no shame..just love that puppy.....And make everyone here proud of you for how you raise your baby from here on out. I think your gonna be an excellent dogdaddy.......


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## Debbie P (Jul 2, 2007)

The fact of the matter is, it is a shame. To knowingly follow through with a purchase, and support BYB's and Miller's, is a shame. It will not only, possibly, affect your pocket book, but by keeping these folks in business, it is laying a tremendous financial burden on the shoulders of Rescues and Shelters. Not to mention the millions of dogs, which will continue to be bred.

We all need to do our part. The first step is to stop supporting, in any way, these people.

Now, what's done is done. Love, and take care of your puppy. But please help spread the word.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

digits mama said:


> At this point...Have no shame..just love that puppy.....And make everyone here proud of you for how you raise your baby from here on out. I think your gonna be an excellent dogdaddy.......


Yes, it is a shame...And thank you, Debbie P for taking the words right out of my mouth.


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## SammyDog (May 21, 2007)

From here on out, just treat thew dog good


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

The other fact of the matter is....He is a 16 year old boy with a full heart of love for a puppy.. Since when Kids listen to everything us adults have to say? This is a young boy that has a developing mind. everyone offered thier advice and there isnt anything we can do...everyone tends to learn from thier mistakes and maybe next time he will have a better sense of handling things. But sending him to shame hell isnt doing a bit of good. It is actually gonna do more harm then good. For dogs sake yall...be nice!


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

What's done is done. I hope you will be able to handle the responsibility of owning a puppy. It's a lot easier said than done. Also, I see that you're sixteen years old. What will you do when you go to college? I am in college with pets and believe me, it's not easy. I think you should have waited a bit longer but like I said what's done is done and now it is your job to care for this living, breathing thing and I hope you will be able to do so.

Good luck.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

He's a smart kid - and he has a plan, I have no doubt he will take great care of this puppy. I am just disappointed he decided to buy from a BYB, even after 10 pages of reasons why you shouldn't. But hey...you can lead a horse to water...


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> He's a smart kid - and he has a plan, I have no doubt he will take great care of this puppy. I am just disappointed he decided to buy from a BYB, even after 10 pages of reasons why you shouldn't. But hey...you can lead a horse to water...


 My thoughts exactly. 

I think he'll take very good care of the puppy and will be a good owner. I'm just sad that he chose to purchase one from a BYB. I'm sixteen as well, and trust me, I'm old enough to make a well informed desicion.  

Good luck with your puppy though, he is cute.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

She isn't a byb, she isn't one of those people that her two dogs happened to mate with each other. She has her own business and surely the humane society or some other pet organization would have to come and inspect the place wouldn't they for her to run a business? 

I really appreciate your all's concern but like what has been said, what's done is done. I know I am taking a chance on getting it from someone that doesn't test the line but she says she keeps in contact with all her buyers and they haven't reported a problem. I know I should have saved the money and all that and paid a high price but I didn't so please lets not continue with the "oh I'm ashamed of you" or "shame on you, after all the advice..." I appreciate the advice, I really do but let me make my own decision's please.

I just got back from the vet and he did an exam and said the puppy was healthy as can be, all he had to do was trim his nails a bit since he said they were alittle long and he trimmed his face up a bit and now I can see his eyes! lol The vet said he weighs 3 pounds and to put some warm water into his food to make it easier for him to eat since his teeth are still coming in. But I forgot to ask what kind of treats I should give him, what do you guys recommend? I got these treats from milk bone that said "Great For Training" but they are to big and hard for him to chew. I got to take snoopy back on the 30th for him to get his next round of shots and they said to wait a couple of months before I let him be around with other dogs, its to bad cause I was gonna take him to see a girl shih tzu in a couple of weeks. lol 

Also, I'm not sure if he will do this tonight or not. But last night I turned all the lights out, turned the tv off and put his crate up on a chair so he could see me. But he just kept whining and whining all night long. He would go to sleep for about an hour then he'd wake up. But he seemed to have gone back to sleep after I took him out and gave him some food and water and then put him on the puppy pad and let him go to the bathroom and he pee'd everytime. Is there anything I could do different to calm him down? Today when I left for work I put the crate and chair in front of the tv and turned it on and left the lights on and my mom said she didn't hear one thing. Should I try that tonight? I'm going to try and tire him out by playing some ball before bed. Am I missing anything?

Oh! How would you all recommend that I get him to walk on a leash outside? In the house I let him drag the leash around and then occasionally I pick the leash up and follow him. But when he is outside all he does it sit down and he won't move. Any ideas? He hasn't learned to respond to his name to good just yet but I'm gonna try and get him to.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm glad your vet visit went well. Try some boiled chicken breast or small bits of hot dog - they are nice, soft and yummy! 

As for the crate - it's pretty normal for a pup that age to whine and cry. Just remember to only let him out of his crate when he's quiet or he will learn really quickly that whining gets him attention. Tiring him out is a great idea before bed time, just be patient and consistent - he'll be sleeping through the night in no time. 

For now, I would just get him used to his collar and lead right now - having him drag it around a few times a day should do the trick. 

Lastly, we need more pics...


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well he normally shuts up when I sit up in bed and look at him and thats when he gets to come out. I usually let him sniff my hand if he is crying in the crate then when he calms down I let him out.

I'm getting ready to post some more pics soon, I got dial up so it takes time. 

I'm also uploading a vid to youtube of his playtime this morning and its 50% done now. I'll post it in the topic that borzimom posted "Music to your videos" or what ever that topic is called.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

I'm also very dissapointed inr eading this thread learning that you did go with the bad breeder.

No the humane society doesnt do shit if a dog has food water and shelter. Why else would puppy mills still be running? Offcourse the puppy seems fine now. You didnt get the genetic tests done ont he dog. i advise when it is 2ish to get all the tets done as it is done growing. What will you do if it needs a hip transplant? That costs 1000's of dollars?

I'm sorry the puppy is cute. But I find it sad you went with this bad breeder.
CKC and AKC dont mean much just means the dogs parents are purebred and are registerd.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

So when it turns 2 I should take it in for genetic testing?

Also he has seemed to start liking to nibble on my feet, I have socks on, is that ok? I stop him when he bites to hard and hand him a chew toy which he takes interest in for awhile then he starts walking around. Should I stop this? Also he seems to like to lick my bike tires, the bike hasn't been ridden in a few months, should I stop that as well?


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## mattmania843 (May 6, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> She isn't a byb, she isn't one of those people that her two dogs happened to mate with each other..


Thats an oxymoron. That makes her a BYB. Nobody who is responsible leaves a bitch in heat around an intact male. (I learned that from my dog forum buddies ) Well whats done is done I guess. If i could of told you earlier I would have advised a shelter but now thats over. Good luck with the pup and hopefully you wont be in the health forum anytime soon.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

_CKC_.....is that CANADIAN Kennel Club or CONTINENTAL Kennel Club???....if it's the former, ok.....but if it's the latter, you just bought yourself a puppy for a large sum of money that doesn't have papers.....you might as well have gotten a mutt or gone to the HS.....and the health guarantee on him, since the "papers" are most likely not legit, may not be legit either......is there a microchip # on the health guarantee that you can "trace" back to the parents?.....

oh, well....live and learn......i hope you don't end up w/ the heartache that a lady i met that had purchased a "Maltese" pup (pup was Bichon and Pom, or something of the sort) had to go thru....cost of pup: $450.....cost of med bils in the first 1 1/2 mo: $5000......end results: puppy died while trying to "correct" a genetic heart and liver defect......this pup came w/ health guarantees, also.....


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## RenaRose (Mar 22, 2007)

Wow! I just read the entire thread. Thats quite an accomplishment for me to sit still that long. But what a roller coaster. All the warnings and advice and info. Then the switching back and forth from the different breeders. And then all the people who we're so happy that he had found a good breeder and then so dissapionted that he stuck with the original. But we're all still confident that he will be a good puppy owner. Well I know this dosen't influence the thread at all but I just felt intitled to say something after all that. It was almost like a tv show.

Congradulations to Durbkat on his new baby! And well done to all those who gave advice. Even if he didn't compleatly listen to you I know he learned something.


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## squirt1968 (Feb 19, 2007)

just the other day I read a thread on this forum about young people and how we should be supportive to them. I hope none of you people were any that submitted to that thread as this one is the exact opposite of it for the most part. The op I believe asked about picking the color not asking if he chose the right breeder and unless I missed it, not one person answered his question. Why when something has been stated do so many people repeat it?
I could understand if a couple just state that they agree with a comment but 11 pages of that seems rather excessive to me. Just wanted to state my slant on this. 
Your pup is cute a can be and it sounds to me that you will be a responsible dog owner. As far as waiting until you can really afford any and all unforseen problems many people including myself would never have had their children and I for one am glad I had them (think they are too).


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Thank you squirt, I appreciate the concern but I think I made the right choice and I agree with what the breeder said that those discussion boards are out there to make every breeder seem like they are a puppy mill and that they are bad.


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## Haidden (Apr 2, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Thank you squirt, I appreciate the concern but I think I made the right choice and I agree with what the breeder said that those discussion boards are out there to make every breeder seem like they are a puppy mill and that they are bad.


Its not that every breeder is a "puppy mill" or byb its that there are good breeders and bad breeders. If i was a breeder and I pumped out puppies left and right of course I would tell you anything and everything you wanted to hear, lie or not, just to get your money. Basically once they have your money its done and over with no going back.


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## lonlymac (Mar 15, 2007)

Why don't all of you negative people leave the poor kid alone. I've just recently purchased a Shih Tzu at a pet store, Yes a Pet store! He's 1 year old now and i couldn't be more happier with the dog. Now before you all start, i just adopted a 4 year old boxer. Its my 2nd adopted boxer. Before i got my dogs i was reading the forums and i have to tell you, i got very frustrated with all the negative people telling you, what and how you should take care of a dog. Everyone has there own opinions, what makes them experts. I try to take a little advise from each person and move on from there. My first boxer, before i learned about food was fed Old Roy. He died at home when he was 14 years old, not bad for a dog that was fed wal-mart food and he never had health problems. (He was adopted). So, who knows whats right and wrong. My 2 new dogs are both fed Canidae, see i took advise about good food. All i'm saying is, give the kid positive advise, don't beat him down because he didnt do what you wanted  

Good luck with the new dog


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

lonlymac said:


> I've just recently purchased a Shih Tzu at a pet store, Yes a Pet store!


Oh fabulous - you just supported more dogs living in conditions like these...
http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/


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## redox (May 21, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Oh fabulous - you just supported more dogs living in conditions like these...
> http://www.prisonersofgreed.org/


Yep, congrats. This is real life, your convenience for the cost of inhumane living conditions for countless puppies and continual forced breeding of female dogs. If people didn't buy puppies from puppymills like this or petstores that get their puppies from puppymills, then these puppymills wouldn't be able to turn a profit and would stop what their doing. So yeah, good for you, encourage other people to do the same as you.


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## lonlymac (Mar 15, 2007)

I'm not encouraging anything. The kid didnt have the money to get the dog from the other breeder, and your getting all over him for it. All you 2 are doing is supporting what i said earlier. Way to help him out


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Now that he has the dog, plenty of people have been helping him out with advice on Snoopy's care.

When you ask for advice, you often get more than you bargain for. Yep, maybe he asked what color to get, but the advice he got was about things that really matter. If a first-time future homeowner asked what color to paint the kitchen on the house they were thinking of buying, and posted links to the house listing, I think it would be irresponsible for someone with fixer-upper experience to not point out if the house looked like it needed a new roof, or the foundation had cracks, or any other potential money-pit problems. 

Same thing here. 

A thread on an internet forum is for much more than the original poster. For each person who submits a thread, there's dozens more just reading it. Maybe the good advice didn't seem to matter enough to the OP, but maybe it'll help someone else make a more informed choice. If that's the case, then it's not words written in vain.


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

Durbkat, your puppy is super cute. You have many fun and interesting years ahead. From all I have read, I think you will make a GREAT dad!

Now, for everyone else, I have to vent my spleen. Someone needs to give this guy credit. From his posts it is clear that not only did he listen to and carefully weigh all the advice given to him, he also very good naturedly took a lot of bs with a very good attitude. Given how some people responded, I might not have been so friendly and I'm 28. 

He seems to really have it together and to have done his research. I have the feeling this wasn't the work of a moment, it was the culmination of a months or even year-long plan. He even talked to his landlord! I'm willing to bet that if he got to the breeder and found a horrible or inhumane situation, he might not have gotten that pup. Only he was there and only he could determine if the person was reputable. Everyone else here is just going based on their own preconceptions. Maybe you are right and tere is certain misery and doom ahead, but you can't know that. This puppy ould be a perfectly healthy, well-bredwonderful companion for years and years to come. 

This woman could be a good, albeit perhaps not top notch breeder. She may love her dogs and treat them well and not overbreed. How do we know? Face it. Not everyone can afford $600+ for a puppy. Not everyone wants a rescue. Oh, and BTW, I'm not sure why anyone would think a rescue would have less potential medical problems than this dog. 

My dog's a rescue, he's healthy and I love him and I totally support rescue grps and the work they do. But a lot, especially the purebreds, have health problems, are former puppy mill dogs, have mental issues, etc. and not all orgs are upfront about it or don't know until too late. My mother's rescued Bijon came from a great group and still ended up costing her thousands of dollars in medical bills and more in heartbreak before she finally made the heart wrenching decision to put him down out of mercy. Some people, thank god, are willing and ready to take that sort of thing on, my mom and many other just want a companion. I don't blame a 16 year old for not wanting such a project, even if they would adopt to him at all given his age.

Finally, there is no excuse for shouting at anyone, much less a person of any age who has just made a huge decision and gotten their first puppy and is all excited that they should be ashamed, will spend thousands of dollars in medical bills or their dog will die or be crippled!  Why try to ruin what should have been a great moment for him. 

Maybe some of the effort people put into being nice to and not beating up their animals should go into not beating up on people for no good reason other than to make yourselves feel better.


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## thomson (Jul 4, 2007)

Those pictures are really cute!!!!!!!!! Can you give me one of your puppy....


thomson

http://absinthealcohol.eslblogs.org/


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

poohlp said:


> Now, for everyone else, I have to vent my spleen. Someone needs to give this guy credit. From his posts it is clear that not only did he listen to and carefully weigh all the advice given to him, he also very good naturedly took a lot of bs with a very good attitude. Given how some people responded, I might not have been so friendly and I'm 28.


Well when I have let my fingers do the talking they have gotten me into trouble before, so I learned to keep my mouth shut because I don't know these people so it doesn't affect me. 



> I'm willing to bet that if he got to the breeder and found a horrible or inhumane situation, he might not have gotten that pup.


Exactly. I went with her to where the puppies were and everything was clean and they had alot of space and I looked at the parents and they were really friendly.



> This woman could be a good, albeit perhaps not top notch breeder. She may love her dogs and treat them well and not overbreed. How do we know? Face it. Not everyone can afford $600+ for a puppy. Not everyone wants a rescue. Oh, and BTW, I'm not sure why anyone would think a rescue would have less potential medical problems than this dog.


She lives in the country and country people don't understand why someone would pay a high price for a dog when they could get a mutt from the pound. So I guess if she wants be able to run her business she has to sell the pups at a price that will sell. 



> My dog's a rescue, he's healthy and I love him and I totally support rescue grps and the work they do. But a lot, especially the purebreds, have health problems, are former puppy mill dogs, have mental issues, etc. and not all orgs are upfront about it or don't know until too late. My mother's rescued Bijon came from a great group and still ended up costing her thousands of dollars in medical bills and more in heartbreak before she finally made the heart wrenching decision to put him down out of mercy.


Plus this women I know spent alot of money on buying a bichon from a "reputable breeder" and its now two years old and has arthritis because apparently they bred the mom with one of her children. She had to take it to the vet and it cost $800 for surgery, it would have cost $1,800 at the vet they normally go to but found a cheaper one.


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## redox (May 21, 2007)

You have bought the puppy, love it.

If you think people were being rude, it's probably because they were. Frankly, I will be rude if it can help animals that can't help themselves. That's just the way it is. 



> Plus this women I know spent alot of money on buying a bichon from a "reputable breeder" and its now two years old and has arthritis because apparently they bred the mom with one of her children. She had to take it to the vet and it cost $800 for surgery, it would have cost $1,800 at the vet they normally go to but found a cheaper one.


I really don't know what to say... This is pretty much what we were getting at. I mean if this lady doesn't know how to find a good breeder how can she be one herself. But what is done is done, we just don't want someone else to read this thread and think there is no difference between good breeders and people that shouldn't be breeding.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Lorina said:


> Now that he has the dog, plenty of people have been helping him out with advice on Snoopy's care.
> 
> When you ask for advice, you often get more than you bargain for. Yep, maybe he asked what color to get, but the advice he got was about things that really matter. If a first-time future homeowner asked what color to paint the kitchen on the house they were thinking of buying, and posted links to the house listing, I think it would be irresponsible for someone with fixer-upper experience to not point out if the house looked like it needed a new roof, or the foundation had cracks, or any other potential money-pit problems.
> 
> ...


Beautiful post. I hope this is the case.


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## MartinCarson (Jul 11, 2007)

Personally I don't hink he should have a puppy if he is going to be shouldering all of the financial responsibilities. I just got a puppy 4 weeks ago and have already spent +$400 on top of the price of the pup, from what I understand he only makes $400 a month. I have a full time job and this put a strain on resources, I can only imagine if something serious happened...enter pet insurance. Coupled witht the enormous responsibilities of raising a puppy, it doesnt seem like a responsible choice, expecially after all of the insight offered in this thread.
On that note I am amazed at the wealth of information that was offered in this discussion and wish that I had read this before I purchased by little guy. I purchased my pup for a cheap price, luckily it was from a gentleman who's dog happened to get pregnant and was caring and still keeps in touch, and has offered to pay for the vet expenses we incurred from a parasite infection. I did not even know dog's could be tested for genetics and future problems etc. 
Thanks for all the great info and will keep it in mind for my next purchase (hopefully a Chow Chow - they are so funny looking!)
Best of Luck to you!!


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Well I have only spent about $80 in vet bills.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Wow! I loved reading this board! It was so interesting. Not your average conversation on dog forums.

I don't really think people were being rude, they were just trying to help. I think it the end was when it got out of hand. People saying that they were ashamed of Micheal. Micheal is 16. He is a very intellegent kid, and he can make decisions for himself. Plus, he is the one paying for the puppy, its supplies and all of it's expenses (like vet visits) so it is completely up to him who he buys the puppies from. I think some people judged this was a BYB to quickly. The pics on the front page could just be pics of some past litters or Snoopy's litter. It doesn't automatically mean she's constantly pumping out puppies. If she has never had problems with the parents, it probably means Snoopy won't end up with genetic disorders. Micheal will be a great daddy and I think that's what truly matters.

Wishing you many happy years with Snoopy.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> I think some people judged this was a BYB to quickly. The pics on the front page could just be pics of some past litters or Snoopy's litter..


 
What's the weather like in your world? Rosey?


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> What's the weather like in your world? Rosey?



I'm just saying you never know. No one on here except Durbkat actaully met this breeder or talked to her so they can't completely judge her. But I do agree it's a BYB, I was just saying don't jump to conclusions... I know that's an oxi-moran, I don't know how to say what I mean.


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## Puppy_love_122 (Jul 20, 2007)

You may have only have to spen $80 for a check up but what happens if the pup falls off a bed, gets hit by car, eats something, or needs sugary for something. These all will cost thousands of dollars. Would you have to give away the pup? Would your parents help you.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I meant I have paid $80 on two vet visits with meds perscribed on the first one for an eye infection that I payed for and the second visit was for a check up and a ear cleaning.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Puppy_love_122 said:


> You may have only have to spen $80 for a check up but what happens if the pup falls off a bed, gets hit by car, eats something, or needs sugary for something. These all will cost thousands of dollars. Would you have to give away the pup? Would your parents help you.


Also, he did buy this pup from a breeder that didn't guarantee much. I'm not insulting you, Durbkat, I'm just saying this puppy has higher chance with health problems as opposed to a puppy from the better breeder. Just incase (I think all dog owners should do this) over the next few months, put some of your salary in a special bank account you can call a puppy fund. This can be emergency money. You can add a little do it (maybe just $10 even) with each paycheck. This way if Snoopy should get very sick or needs surgery, you can take some already saved up money out of your puppy fund to cover vet bills. Just a suggestion to every dog owner.


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## Haidden (Apr 2, 2007)

80 dollars is one check up here... jeez

Did you not get his 3rd set of shots (or is he still on his 2nd?) when you took him to the vet?

Heartworm meds and frontline plus is 120 bucks for 6 months.

I remember when I took bailey to the vet the week I got him, it cost me 76 dollars no meds nothing, just check up and month supply of heartworm. He is getting fixed tomorrow and thats costing 150 dollars. 

On a side note how did you know his name was Michael (pup at heart)? 

Along with what pupatheart said, I would take out 10-20 dollars each paycheck just to put back for vet bills etc, you never know down the road.


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Haidden said:


> 80 dollars is one check up here... jeez
> 
> Did you not get his 3rd set of shots (or is he still on his 2nd?) when you took him to the vet?
> 
> ...


I read this whole forum


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Haidden said:


> 80 dollars is one check up here... jeez
> 
> Did you not get his 3rd set of shots (or is he still on his 2nd?) when you took him to the vet?
> 
> ...


A check up is only $24 here and it only cost more each time was first was the meds for the eye and the second time was that the vet offered to clean snoopy's ears. I didn't think I'd have to pay for him to clean his ears when I didn't ask him to do so.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

pup_at_heart said:


> I don't really think people were being rude, they were just trying to help. I think it the end was when it got out of hand. People saying that they were ashamed of Micheal. Micheal is 16. He is a very intellegent kid, and he can make decisions for himself. Plus, he is the one paying for the puppy, its supplies and all of it's expenses (like vet visits) so it is completely up to him who he buys the puppies from. I think some people judged this was a BYB to quickly. The pics on the front page could just be pics of some past litters or Snoopy's litter. It doesn't automatically mean she's constantly pumping out puppies. If she has never had problems with the parents, it probably means Snoopy won't end up with genetic disorders. Micheal will be a great daddy and I think that's what truly matters.
> 
> Wishing you many happy years with Snoopy.


No Pup, we weren't attempting to be rude. Myself and I'm sure several other posters were frustrated Michael didn't listen to us about this breeder. No gentetic testing or certifications=BYB. Period!! That conclusion was based on the breeder's response written to Michael, the pctures just didn't help her case out much. I believe you're confusing a BYB and a puppymill here. While neither are good there is a difference. To assume she's never had problems with the parents "because she said so" is just foolhardy, what evidence does she present us with? She sure wouldn't be the first BYB to lie about these things. That's what certifications are for. I too wish Michael many happy years with Snoopy. I won't assume he won't have any difficulties based on this breeder's say so. I also believe while michael is young he seems to care a great deal for his puppy and I think that's great. What's done is done now and we can't change it so we've moved on to supporting Michael with as much good info. as we can, that's all we can do...inform...we can't force anyone to listen to us. I have heard lots of the good advice Michael has been given thus far repeated in his posts to others tho.. So every little bit of time typing is never wasted, maybe someone is listening


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## pup_at_heart (Jun 19, 2007)

Dieselsmama said:


> No Pup, we weren't attempting to be rude. Myself and I'm sure several other posters were frustrated Michael didn't listen to us about this breeder. No gentetic testing or certifications=BYB. Period!! That conclusion was based on the breeder's response written to Michael, the pctures just didn't help her case out much. I believe you're confusing a BYB and a puppymill here. While neither are good there is a difference. To assume she's never had problems with the parents "because she said so" is just foolhardy, what evidence does she present us with? She sure wouldn't be the first BYB to lie about these things. That's what certifications are for. I too wish Michael many happy years with Snoopy. I won't assume he won't have any difficulties based on this breeder's say so. I also believe while michael is young he seems to care a great deal for his puppy and I think that's great. What's done is done now and we can't change it so we've moved on to supporting Michael with as much good info. as we can, that's all we can do...inform...we can't force anyone to listen to us. I have heard lots of the good advice Michael has been given thus far repeated in his posts to others tho.. So every little bit of time typing is never wasted, maybe someone is listening


I understand. You had some good points.


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