# Socialization, AKA you messed up your dog!



## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Out of curiosity, I have been reading Ian Dunbar's website adapted from his puppy book "Before and After..." and am particularly intrigued (read: made paranoid) by his chapter on socialization. In it, he seems to portray socialization before 12 weeks as a total making or breaking of your dog, and if you don't follow all his steps perfectly then your pup is destined for the pound. I have heard of the negative extreme of no socialization in puppy mill breeders and of course the classic "doesn't like men or other dogs" type of dog, but how much of that can be true?

For example, if you get your puppy from a breeder or the shelter at 10 weeks, that means you only have 2 weeks to fulfill the magic number of 100 (people) before 3 months of age. Of course if the breeder is reputable then they've probably started on socialization, but the shelter dog is not so lucky. What if you only get in 50? 75? What if your social life is so bad that you can't possibly get that many people in your house (since your puppy shouldn't go outside because of their immune system)? How "ruined" is your dog going to be if you don't absolutely adhere to the 12 weeks/100 people rule?

Sorry if I sound really ignorant, but after reading Dunbar, it sounds like you'll totally fail as a dog parent and raise a terrible dog if you're not 1000% on this "critical socialization period". Has anyone NOT ended up with such a dog, who didn't follow this method?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

my dogs meet nothing like 100 people by the time they are 12 weeks old. My dogs don't set a paw on public ground before they are 16 weeks old/fully vaccinated. They meet some known to me to be vaccinated dogs (friends and family) and friends and family. They get carried around some in public. Mostly? Nope. I can, in fact, work on socialization after that period. (It is a little harder, yes, but it is still entirely possible).

I can not socialize a dead from parvo dog, and our area is CRAWLING with parvo. So. Nope. Not even close to following that advice, and my dogs are a little aloof - but I train them for that. They are most definitely not aggressive or fearful.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I personally don't agree with Ian Dunbar about socialisation. I agree that it should start young, but I think it's unrealistic and unnecessary to meet 100 people within 3 weeks (or whatever ridiculous number Dunbar came up with), and I don't think it's all doomed to go wrong if you don't do loads before 12 weeks.

Yes, it should start at 5-6 weeks, and the puppy should experience novel objects, different surfaces, environments, meet and be handled by several people and be exposed to a myriad of different things. But the cut-off isn't at 12 weeks. It should start before 12 weeks, but it should continue at least until 12 months (and then has to be maintained for the life of the dog), but there are studies that suggest that the cut-off point is at 16 weeks, and others who say it's at 20 weeks. Some studies suggest that the more you socialise, the later the cut-off point is.

I don't agree with keeping a puppy isolated until it's fully vaccinated. Even if the area is a high parvo risk, you should still get out and let the puppy experience new things. But it would then be carried in public, only visit low risk areas, and visit friends and family.

A puppy who is well socialised early is definitely more confident than a dog who hasn't been socialised, and if you miss out on socialising when the dog is young, it might always have anxiety issue in new environment (depends on how stable the dog's temperament is too though, some dogs are naturally confident). Also, if you over-do socialisation, you might actually do the wrong type of socialisation. If you're constantly throwing a puppy into situations where it's not really coping, you will also have an anxious dog with issues. Socialising correctly is as important as socialising enough.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

If things were universally true when it came to dogs, a whole lot more dogs would be dead. Especially the socialization front. Smalls was not socialized properly in any way as a baby. She had surgery and a lot of medical issues, so she basically spend her puppyhood recovering. We dealt with reactivity that I'm sure stemmed from this as a result, but it was in excitement to get to the thing she was reacting at. After some work she is an exceptionally well rounded, well socialized dog. She loves every one and dog she ever meets. 

Makes me think of many of my shelter puppies as well that are not adopted quickly. They have "do not touch" signs and cannot go outside, so they get basically nothing on the socialization front. Most turn out OK in the months they grow up at the shelter.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Yeah, that's what I thought too. I think Dunbar's heart is in the right place, but a lot of the time he says things in absolutes or else in totally stress-inducing ways, e.g. if you have accidents in your house (and who hasn't?) your puppy will take forever to be housebroken, or if your puppy starts chewing on furniture, well, it'll be really hard to get them to stop.

(BTW, does anyone have a more positive puppy book or expert to recommend, who doesn't make people feel like their puppy is a glass statue just waiting to be shattered? And then not offer any help if said puppy happens to be "set up for failure"?)

I'm sure having a good temperament or in-born confidence helps a lot, too, if socialization has to start later. But Dunbar says in the case of puppies who are not even at that level of confidence will need to meet 200 or even 300 people and start their socialization earlier, which sounds like overkill to me. I suppose he makes it easier for owners who must see everything in black and white and follow rules to the letter, just in case, but if it were me I would probably freak out if I socialized with only 90 people.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I don't agree with keeping a puppy isolated until it's fully vaccinated. Even if the area is a high parvo risk, you should still get out and let the puppy experience new things. But it would then be carried in public, only visit low risk areas, and visit friends and family.


Just to be clear here, since I'm the only person who mentioned parvo risk:

I specifically said I got my pups out to friends, family, and carried around some. The paw on public ground thing is pretty literal. I don't do parks and petstores or street walking with them, but they DO go out and meet family, friends, known vaccinated dogs, and get carted out and about with us. I don't think intensive early socialization is nearly as important as a lot of people do, but I *do* socialize them. 

It's just a personal thing, and is obviously influenced by personal experiences and bias. The only dog I have who isn't ridiculously confident is a retired show dog (who was certainly socialized), and the only dog I've ever seen with major socialization/shyness/fear issues was untouched by PEOPLE at all until 4 months. I have seen a lot of dogs spend their lives on chains, from 8 weeks to old age and come off completely friendly, loving, and ready to roll. There's obviously a lot of temperament and genetics in play. Mostly, though, I've seen more puppies die of parvo in the past two decades than I can count on both hands and feet. (That's not criticism or argument - that's me admitting my bias; I'm more confident in my ability to get a dog through socialization problems, by far, than get them through parvo.)

But I do agree, isolating a puppy for 4 months is bad. OTOH, I'm not sure how you'd manage that. If nothing else, the dog is being socialized to your house, the activity in it, and the vet's office. Not enough for even my conservative approach re: vaccinations me, but still not ISOLATED.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Would either of you say, then, that sufficient (not 100 people overkill) socialization will basically make the dog more well-adjusted and confident in general and be able to handle new situations better? Because a lot of material I've read on socialization basically implies that the dog will not be able to generalize and every time they see something new, like a person in a wheelchair, or being at a carnival, they will freak out. But since it's not always possible to find disabled people or sometimes even children depending on your social circle, it seems impractical and weird to try and find every single type of person and take them to every possible place that they'll ever be in their lives.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I started reading Dunbar in preparation for bringing home a puppy. Within the first few chapters, I was freaked out and nearly having panic attacks worrying about making a mistake and ruining my puppy for life. I stopped reading Dunbar and picked up _The Puppy Whisperer_ and _The Dog Whispered_ both by Paul Owens. Owens' more laid-back approach and reassuring tone made me much more confident in my ability to raise a well-mannered, well-rounded pup. It's very obvious that he came of age in the 60s (he talks about spending time at an ashram, recommends meditation before training, etc), but his advice is good.

Sophia Yin has a more scientific approach, but is another good resource. I haven't read her puppy book, but her basic training text (_How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves_) offers solid information. 

Check out the "recommended reading" and "training videos" stickies for more suggestions for other authors, titles, and resources.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

cookieface said:


> I started reading Dunbar in preparation for bringing home a puppy. Within the first few chapters, I was freaked out and nearly having panic attacks worrying about making a mistake and ruining my puppy for life. I stopped reading Dunbar and picked up _The Puppy Whisperer_ and _The Dog Whispered_ both by Paul Owens. Owens' more laid-back approach and reassuring tone made me much more confident in my ability to raise a well-mannered, well-rounded pup. It's very obvious that he came of age in the 60s (he talks about spending time at an ashram, recommends meditation before training, etc), but his advice is good.
> 
> Sophia Yin has a more scientific approach, but is another good resource. I haven't read her puppy book, but her basic training text (_How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves_) offers solid information.
> 
> Check out the "recommended reading" and "training videos" stickies for more suggestions for other authors, titles, and resources.


I know, right? I saw that he was hailed as a positive reinforcement guru so I started reading his website and yes, it definitely put me in a panic mode too. I see droves of badly socialized dogs in my neighborhood and at the dog park and that just further reinforced my thinking that messing up would make dogs end up like the ones I see every day. Even my friend has a dog that is wary of men and hates other dogs; she is fine with it since she rarely goes outside with her dog, but I would definitely want my dog to be able to play with other dogs and not freak out at men and random people on the street. My "trial" dog would freeze in the middle of the street(!) to stare at my neighbor and was highly reactive towards certain types of men, which was super stressful for me especially since that included my dad.

I'll check out Paul Owen, thanks! I've also read some things by Sophia Yin, though she kind of freaks me out just as much because she's SO scientific that she attributes slower training to owners being bad at delivering treats and stuff like that.

Oh, since you've obviously done your puppy research, have you ever come across a good puppy timeline? As in, when is a good time to start training, when is a good time to start taking to classes, etc? I've heard mixed opinions from "Don't rush the puppy and overwhelm them in the first week" to "you can start training the day you bring them home". Also, a lot of the puppy classes in my area allow puppies at 8 weeks but theoretically you're only just getting your puppy at 8 weeks, wouldn't it be terribly stressful for them to start classes before they've even gotten used to the house?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Just to be clear here, since I'm the only person who mentioned parvo risk:
> 
> I specifically said I got my pups out to friends, family, and carried around some. The paw on public ground thing is pretty literal. I don't do parks and petstores or street walking with them, but they DO go out and meet family, friends, known vaccinated dogs, and get carted out and about with us. I don't think intensive early socialization is nearly as important as a lot of people do, but I *do* socialize them.
> 
> ...


I wasn't picking on you, if it seemed like that. You mentioning parvo made me think of isolating puppies as a general thing, and obviously if there's a LOT of parvo in an area you have to take that into consideration when socialising a puppy.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

ayln said:


> Would either of you say, then, that sufficient (not 100 people overkill) socialization will basically make the dog more well-adjusted and confident in general and be able to handle new situations better? Because a lot of material I've read on socialization basically implies that the dog will not be able to generalize and every time they see something new, like a person in a wheelchair, or being at a carnival, they will freak out. But since it's not always possible to find disabled people or sometimes even children depending on your social circle, it seems impractical and weird to try and find every single type of person and take them to every possible place that they'll ever be in their lives.


Rather than trying to meet EVERY type of person there is, I think introducing a puppy to novel things is the most important thing. That is, to be able to see something it's never seen before, and still be ok with it. Introducing a puppy to every type of person is one way to do it, but if you introduce the puppy to 20 different people and then do a lot of environmental socialisation and new places etc, I think that will work just as well.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ayln said:


> I know, right? I saw that he was hailed as a positive reinforcement guru so I started reading his website and yes, it definitely put me in a panic mode too. I see droves of badly socialized dogs in my neighborhood and at the dog park and that just further reinforced my thinking that messing up would make dogs end up like the ones I see every day. Even my friend has a dog that is wary of men and hates other dogs; she is fine with it since she rarely goes outside with her dog, but I would definitely want my dog to be able to play with other dogs and not freak out at men and random people on the street. My "trial" dog would freeze in the middle of the street(!) to stare at my neighbor and was highly reactive towards certain types of men, which was super stressful for me especially since that included my dad.


Don't get me wrong: Dunbar is incredibly knowledgeable and has a wealth of experience. His tone, I think, is appropriate for a good portion of potential and new puppy owners - the ones who don't think past "Ooooh, cute puppy! Let's take him home." For folks who have been thoughtful about the process (like you), but perhaps don't have much experience or confidence in puppy-raising, he can be a scary guy.

That's why I like Owens. He's so reassuring and has an "everything will be ok" attitude (as long as you're sticking with positive methods).



ayln said:


> I'll check out Paul Owen, thanks! I've also read some things by Sophia Yin, though she kind of freaks me out just as much because she's SO scientific that she attributes slower training to owners being bad at delivering treats and stuff like that.


I like Yin, but my undergrad degree is psychology, so I'm into the sciency stuff  I have experienced the results of poor training technique. Right now, I'm working on untraining "touch" with an open mouth. I've also seen how "smart" my dog is when an experienced trainer works with her. The difference is amazing! Certainly there is more to training than mechanics (e.g., your attitude, your pup's motivation, emotions, physical well-being), but it is important.



ayln said:


> Oh, since you've obviously done your puppy research, have you ever come across a good puppy timeline? As in, when is a good time to start training, when is a good time to start taking to classes, etc? I've heard mixed opinions from "Don't rush the puppy and overwhelm them in the first week" to "you can start training the day you bring them home". Also, a lot of the puppy classes in my area allow puppies at 8 weeks but theoretically you're only just getting your puppy at 8 weeks, wouldn't it be terribly stressful for them to start classes before they've even gotten used to the house?


The best developmental timeline I've seen is Developmental Stages & Socialization. I'm far from an expert - Katie is my first dog and we got her at 5 1/2 months (so we skipped the scary socialization window and lots of puppy stuff)  But, I have learned a great deal in the past few months from folks here, training classes, and books & articles. I think a training timeline really depends on the individual puppy. If the pup seems overwhelmed in his new home, give him time to settle in. If the pup seems happy and confident, start small as it is still a huge transition for the puppy. And, he is still a puppy who can really focus for only a few moments at a time.

I don't think statements like "Don't rush the puppy and overwhelm them in the first week" and "you can start training the day you bring them home" are necessarily diametrically opposed. You certainly want to start things like house training, bite inhibition, and basic manners (no jumping, no counter surfing or stealing food, etc) right away; however, formal cues (e.g., sit, stay, down) and classes can wait until puppy is settled a bit. Also, I think it's Owens who talks about passive training: rewarding good behavior, such as puppy quietly chewing an approved toy. Some people describe it as "catch your dog doing something good."

Do you have your puppy yet or are you still planning / waiting?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

CptJack said:


> my dogs meet nothing like 100 people by the time they are 12 weeks old. My dogs don't set a paw on public ground before they are 16 weeks old/fully vaccinated. They meet some known to me to be vaccinated dogs (friends and family) and friends and family. They get carried around some in public. Mostly? Nope. I can, in fact, work on socialization after that period. (It is a little harder, yes, but it is still entirely possible).
> 
> I can not socialize a dead from parvo dog, and our area is CRAWLING with parvo. So. Nope. Not even close to following that advice, and my dogs are a little aloof - but I train them for that. They are most definitely not aggressive or fearful.


You do realize that everywhere you walk parvo sticks to your shoes and you bring it back home no matter what right? I'm not saying "bring your dog around an infected dog" but the amount of parvo that is out in the world in the ground on floors can be fought off by a healthy puppy immune system. Now there is the issue that not every puppy has a healthy immune system but we never know that till it's usually too late.


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

FWIW, our young BC mix is probably a pretty good test of the "12 week" idea. We got her at 12 weeks. She came from a hoarder's yard, where she was loose with 30 or so other dogs (including her mother) and had very little human contact at all....until the Sheriff removed her and placed her with a rescue. So, very good doggie socialization, next to no human socialization, for those first 12 weeks. 

She had little interest in us at first, not afraid at all, just not engaging that much, she just wanted to hang out with our other dog, but she warmed up pretty quickly and became a very snuggly and affectionate dog in a sort time. We did take her a lot of places to see people (parvo is not super common here). She looooves people and lives to greet people she knows. 

She did, and still does, get worried when she sees a person who does not look at all like (or probably smell like) people she already knows and will bark at them, but she seems to accept that the different person is a person (and she loves people) once she gets used to them and is usually OK with that type of person after that. 

It can be embarrassing...first she was afraid of very heavy people (we live in an exurban town where people are very active and very overweight people aren't common), then it was men with hats and beards, then it was bald men, a young woman on crutches freaked her out, the first time she saw someone wearing a backpack, a woman with bright orange dyed hair, a developmentally disabled man who behaves differently, etc... She's gotten over most of that with repeated exposure. She's always been Ok with all kids, she loves them all no matter how unusual they look. But, I think we'll always have to manage her in crowds and new places because she has not decided that ALL people are always OK, though she adds new "types" to her acceptable list as she meets them. 

She won't make it as a therapy dog, visiting hospitals or anything, but I don't think she's "ruined" because she knew pretty much NO people for the first 12 weeks. We enjoy her, everyone who knows her loves her and she is willing to give new types of people a chance once she gets over the initial fear at someone different.

She is a "soft" dog and on the timid side, so I don't know if she'd be nervous around strange looking people if she had be socialized to humans sooner.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

My personal feeling is that how many people you need to meet is very dependent on the dog's genetic temperament. Some dogs, labs for example, are generally happy and friendly with every person and dog they meet, whether they were extensively socialized or not. If you want a totally bombproof dog for things like therapy work, you're better off socializing the heck out of that lab, but even minimally socialized labs usually turn out to be sweet dogs and this is one reason they're so popular and recommended for new owners.

Other breeds, guardian breeds or very timid breeds, for example, don't do well with minimal socialization. Maybe they still don't need to meet 100 people before 12 weeks, but to be totally bombproof they might. To be a happy family pet, maybe they only need to meet 50 people, but more will always be better with tougher dogs like this. I think a reason people fail with these dogs is often because they don't do enough socialization (or the dog comes from a shelter environment where that's not possible) and the dog always has fears or anxieties about certain types of people, dogs, situations, etc.

I think Dunbar exaggerates the socialization thing, but only because it is so critically important that he wants people to really get the importance. It's one of those things where if you're socializing the heck out of your puppy and only get 60 people instead of 100, you're probably just fine. If you weren't considering socializing your dog at all, you probably need that kick in the pants to get him out there and meeting people.

eta: Parvo is almost non-existent in my area, so my pup was out in public when I got him at 9.5 weeks. He's also from a breed that used to be known for timidity and/or reserve (though my breeder especially has been working to change that) so I didn't want to take any chances. Obviously if parvo is a concern certain measures need to be taken, but I am an advocate for getting puppies out as often as possible from the youngest possible age, and continuing the socialization for as long as possible.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ayln said:


> Would either of you say, then, that sufficient (not 100 people overkill) socialization will basically make the dog more well-adjusted and confident in general and be able to handle new situations better? Because a lot of material I've read on socialization basically implies that the dog will not be able to generalize and every time they see something new, like a person in a wheelchair, or being at a carnival, they will freak out. But since it's not always possible to find disabled people or sometimes even children depending on your social circle, it seems impractical and weird to try and find every single type of person and take them to every possible place that they'll ever be in their lives.


I think what you're really socializing to is novelty itself. At first, you are just introducing specific situations, but I think that eventually the dog does generalize that new things=good things, so any new situation becomes easier to handle. This is pretty much the goal of socialization, but some dogs generalize better than others when it comes to novelty, and some do really need to see a million situations.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Keechak said:


> You do realize that everywhere you walk parvo sticks to your shoes and you bring it back home no matter what right? I'm not saying "bring your dog around an infected dog" but the amount of parvo that is out in the world in the ground on floors can be fought off by a healthy puppy immune system. Now there is the issue that not every puppy has a healthy immune system but we never know that till it's usually too late.


There's a reason we bleach our shoes. 

Seriously. It's not even paranoia. It's that there have been three dogs within a few blocks die from it within the past several months - and it's winter. There's a thread here about managing it in a multidog household. It's a major problem. It's also not the 'regular' parvo, it's some mutated strain (f?), where puppies go from pretty much okay and up to dead within about 24 hours - and even vets are pretty freaked out. Vaccinations don't even protect against all the strains, of course (from what I understand), but older dogs and pups do a lot better with it, too.

I DO socialize, and ME going out and walking around, never mind having adult dogs presents risks, but I certainly bend over backward to minimize it. (That said, I've just learned about titering for parvo immunity in puppies, and I will probably do that with Thud after his next vet visit, since he's large and kind of reserved, already.)


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Dogs' temperaments are largely genetic. Socialization fits into that, but does not override it. (I'm not saying I disagree with Dunbar, just that it's not make or break for every dog.)

For example:

Friend's dog, a puppy mill husky. Afraid of everything. _Everything_. He got her at 8 weeks and did everything right. It made no difference. She had to be put to sleep.

My dog, a mix owned by people who broke his hip and didn't take him to a vet. (You should see the x-rays.) I doubt they made any special effort to socialize. I did, but I got him at 3-5 years old. Afraid of very little, a little work gets him over anything that freaks him out.

Why the difference? Because my friend's dog was born with a very fearful temperament and my dog was born with a very stable, confident temperament. There's only so much you can do.

That does not mean you don't need to socialize. You really can't tell with a puppy what temperament they have, so socialize as if they are fearful and reap the benefits of your work later.

Also, adults can be socialized. It's more work and doesn't accomplish quite as much, but you can do it.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Whoa, lots of replies!

cookieface: I do respect and understand both of Dunbar and Yin's approaches, and I think if I do get into a certain rut I will definitely consult Yin since she deals with those real finicky areas. That said, they give off the vibe of creating "the perfect dog" vs "the shelter dog" which I am really not a fan of since I already tend to be a worrywart. And no, I don't have a puppy yet, but after my adult dog experience I realized a couple of things that made me want to try with a puppy instead; namely, that I absolutely have the ability to put in the extra effort a puppy would require, but I couldn't do it with the adult dog I had since she was not for me, in addition to being just above and beyond what I had the capacity and knowledge to deal with. So, I am working with a couple of reputable breeders in my area and I am being very picky about the temperament I want, and not falling again into the trap of loving at first sight and then realizing the puppy is too shy or rambunctious etc.

Amaryllis: In some ways I'm really glad this is the case. I plan on being very critical when I get a puppy, which I should have done with my adult. I had no experience with dog personalities at that time, was not warned by the adoption counselor, and somehow ignored all of the warning signs that the dog was showing, attributing them to the fact that it must have been a new area (adoption fair) or that she sensed I was an inexperienced handler, lol. I even told them as much that I was a first time owner and therefore was totally ignorant, and they still thought that dog was okay for me even though her info sheet later said that she was for experienced owners only. She also had puppies, and now that I think about it, their personalities were direct reflections of hers even after good socialization: the one who looked like her the most cried easily and was very sensitive, another was very clingy and named "Shadow", etc.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Frag lived in a backyard with his mom and litter mates until my ex bought him as 12 weeks. He now has his CGC, is a temperament test dog at the park where I work, and we trial in agility and dock diving. So he had almost zero socialization before that point and ended up great!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think the temperament of the parents is more important than the temperament of the individual puppy. I wouldn't get a shy puppy, and I don't really want to deal with the most active puppy in the litter, but overall the puppies will be on a bell curve around the temperaments of their parents, especially mom. 

I can't believe when people buy a puppy after realizing that the parents are aggressive. Most little puppies are happy and social, but that doesn't mean they'll stay that way as they mature. This is why I, personally, prefer to get puppies from good breeders, rather than the shelter - if you can't meet the parents, it's a total crap shoot even if the puppy seems great.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I think the temperament of the parents is more important than the temperament of the individual puppy. I wouldn't get a shy puppy, and I don't really want to deal with the most active puppy in the litter, but overall the puppies will be on a bell curve around the temperaments of their parents, especially mom.
> 
> I can't believe when people buy a puppy after realizing that the parents are aggressive. Most little puppies are happy and social, but that doesn't mean they'll stay that way as they mature. This is why I, personally, prefer to get puppies from good breeders, rather than the shelter - if you can't meet the parents, it's a total crap shoot even if the puppy seems great.


Yup... I dearly want to ask the people who adopted her puppies what they are turning out like. We never met the father of the litter, but the mother is not confident, very sensitive, very clingy, but very social with (the right) people. Each of the puppies I met at the fair seemed to take on exactly one quality of the mother, except that they were all social. In fact, the "favorite" of the litter was the most insecure and sensitive, even though she had been handled the most. So yes, I can definitely see how genetics plays a part, and I will definitely not settle for a shy or aggressive pup.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Although I love much of Dr. Dunbar's advice, I was way too afraid of Molly getting Parvo to risk taking her out until after her final booster had taken, which was about 17 weeks. As others have said here, you can't socialize or work with a dead dog. As soon as our vet cleared her to go out, we did a lot of puppy socials and immediately enrolled in training class. Prior to the 17 week mark, she met lots of people in our home and we made everyone take off their shoes before entering to minimize the risk. It was always more important to me that she be good with people than with other dogs. She lives in a people world, not a dog world. She was a little shy on our first class but by the last class our fellow students all remarked at how much she'd blossomed. Now, she's a very friendly, happy, secure little dog so I feel like holding this particular dog back didn't do any lasting harm.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

i got my dog at 5 month, i do not think she had any socialization...well with dogs she is fine, but normal every day life and people are/were a big problem. she is 11 month old, and we worked hard...but she sure gets better every day. we even passed the CGC at 8 month old. Lots of work though...
so i agree, it probably takes more work, but its not impossible.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Yeah, I can absolutely agree with being safe and not being too rash on socialization before completely immunized. I do want my pup to be well socialized with other dogs -- I am a big fan of dog parks, as well as just simply being able to walk around the neighborhood without multiple distractions or freak outs -- but I don't personally know more than one person with an immunized adult dog, and her dog is pretty antisocial so it might be more damaging than helpful to let them meet.

I have just gotten in touch with a breeder who does have kids and other animals in the household, would that help if I personally can't get ahold of other well-behaved dogs/kids during the 8-12 week period? Again, sorry for sounding so paranoid, bad experiences and all are forcing me to make sure that I do and learn as much as I can before I get a puppy.


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

I got my dog around 9 weeks old, from a rescue. I immedately started bringing her around family and friends and their vaccinated puppy-friendly dogs. I also took her to the pet store a few times, keeping her in my arms. I wanted to start her in puppy class at around 11-12 weeks, but my vet wouldn't sign the consent form. He did sign it after her next round of shots, at 14 weeks. 

So, at 14 weeks, she got to interact with several other puppies and their people. It was nowhere near Dunbar's recommendation, but I still thought it served her well. I also liked that while in puppy socialization class, we would switch puppies and take turns handing their ears, feet, etc. The instructors also walked around on crutches and with wheelchairs. I think it helps a lot to prepare the pups for the world. My dog is almost 3 now and she still enjoys meeting other dogs and people in public, and isn't reactive to most unfamiliar objects (though one does scare her now and then). I think it worked well.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

That makes me feel a lot better. I'm planning on signing up for puppy classes and socials, but it's just the visitors in the home part that gets me. I guess carrying the puppy around to meet people is sufficient, too. As for parvo, can they get it from a person touching the puppy with their hands? If so, is it okay if the puppy just sees people and dogs while getting positive reinforcement, but without touching or sniffing?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ayln said:


> That makes me feel a lot better. I'm planning on signing up for puppy classes and socials, but it's just the visitors in the home part that gets me. I guess carrying the puppy around to meet people is sufficient, too. As for parvo, can they get it from a person touching the puppy with their hands? If so, is it okay if the puppy just sees people and dogs while getting positive reinforcement, but without touching or sniffing?


Parvo can be passed through any contact with the bacteria in the feces (urine, too?). So if someone's dog rolled in parvo and the person pet their dog, they very well could pass it on. Is it likely? No... but it CAN happen. Socialization without contact is still fantastic... I carry puppies through pet stores and feed them treats, only letting people stop to pet them if they hand sanitize first. No contact with dogs I don't know.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Now I'm kind of paranoid about parvo. If I've had an adult dog in my home who has had accidents in certain areas (cleaned with Anti Icky Poo of course) and has gone in the yard, and that dog has never showed any symptoms of parvo and has been vaccinated, what are the chances of a puppy being infected say, 3 months later after that dog is gone? Would it be wise, then, to not introduce the puppy to the areas the former dog was living in until they are fully vaccinated, to fully wash any fabrics that have come in contact with the dog, and to scrub floors, or is that not necessary since the former dog probably did not have parvo?

ETA: the former dog also had a fecal although only to test for giardia and probably not parvo, and tested clean for everything other than a slight case of kennel cough/sneezing when I got her.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ayln said:


> Now I'm kind of paranoid about parvo. If I've had an adult dog in my home who has had accidents in certain areas (cleaned with Anti Icky Poo of course) and has gone in the yard, and that dog has never showed any symptoms of parvo and has been vaccinated, what are the chances of a puppy being infected say, 3 months later after that dog is gone? Would it be wise, then, to not introduce the puppy to the areas the former dog was living in until they are fully vaccinated, to fully wash any fabrics that have come in contact with the dog, and to scrub floors, or is that not necessary since the former dog probably did not have parvo?
> 
> ETA: the former dog also had a fecal although only to test for giardia and probably not parvo, and tested clean for everything other than a slight case of kennel cough/sneezing when I got her.


Is there a reason to believe the dog had parvo? If it did have parvo or it died and you think it might have, YES, parvo can live for YEARS inside a house and bleach is one of the only (the only?) chemical that can kill it. So unless you have replaced your carpet and/or bleached the area, I would never let a puppy near a house or in the yard of a person who has had a parvo + dog in the last 5-10 years. A few rescues that I foster for do not allow a foster to continue fostering if they have a parvo + dog come through their house (personal or rescue dog) for 5 years I believe, because of this.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

I have no reason whatsoever to believe she had parvo. She had never shown any symptoms in the house, but she has shown interest in dog poops in other yards and has rolled in mud before (immediately gave her a bath after in the house). She was fully vaccinated and hadn't come in contact with another dog for about 3 weeks before she left the house. When she left she was as energetic and healthy as ever.

So would it basically be like, if it's 99% certain the dog was healthy and didn't catch anything during the time at my house and left perfectly healthy as well, there would be no reason to be afraid of parvo as long as reasonable things were done (threw away used toys, routine cleaning of floors and carpets, and washing fabrics)?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't think there's any reason to suspect a healthy vaccinated dog would be spreading parvo. The risk is higher from you taking a walk in the park and tracking something in on your shoes. I wouldn't worry about the other dog being in your house.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> I don't think there's any reason to suspect a healthy vaccinated dog would be spreading parvo. The risk is higher from you taking a walk in the park and tracking something in on your shoes. I wouldn't worry about the other dog being in your house.


Agree. Wash your clothes normally, vacuum as usual, and you should be fine.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Phew. Okay, thanks. Just covering all bases.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

When it comes to Parvo, the vet is your best expert, especially for your area. And, if you don't trust your Vet's opinion, get another Vet.

We used my dog to socialize puppies. I was paranoid about infecting puppies with Parvo, and my Vet's advice to me was that my dog was up to date and he could not transmit Parvo. As far as infection from another dog, Parvo was not a big issue in my location, and my Vet said probabilities were low for that type of transference. 

Somewhere buried deeply in Dunbar's admonitions are the various 'warning' of what you will have to do if you don't socialize early.... as someone said, socialize with 300 different people, or follow specific protocols for socializing with unusual cases, or wait until after the fear cycles, and so on. On the other hand, if you've seen a well-socialized dog and compared to an adequately socialized dog, you can see a difference in the quality of interactions with people, etc.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> When it comes to Parvo, the vet is your best expert, especially for your area. And, if you don't trust your Vet's opinion, get another Vet.


There are only so many vets! We've been through over 5 now...


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> Somewhere buried deeply in Dunbar's admonitions are the various 'warning' of what you will have to do if you don't socialize early.... as someone said, socialize with 300 different people, or follow specific protocols for socializing with unusual cases, or wait until after the fear cycles, and so on. On the other hand, if you've seen a well-socialized dog and compared to an adequately socialized dog, you can see a difference in the quality of interactions with people, etc.


I'm not 100% sure if I've ever seen a well-socialized dog in my neighborhood, although I have seen dogs that will just ignore you completely when walking past you on leash, so I think that would be it? The loveliest dog I've seen in the past few weeks was a husky who always checked in with his/her owner and never paid any attention to other people or dogs other than a cursory glance. My friend's dog is fairly okay at ignoring people on walks but is wary of other dogs and will bark at certain people at the window. The worst dog I've seen would freeze up many many yards away and fixate on short-haired women and Asian men and would lunge and bark at them if they came too close even if they ignored her.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I wouldn't necessarily classify socialized dogs as those who ignore people walking by. A socialized dog is one who is comfortable with all people and dogs and new situations. The whole calm and not jumping part is training and maturity. For example, my 5 1/2 month old pup loves every single person and dog he meets. He can go into any store, home, or park and be confident. However, he still jumps on people and tries to play with every dog we pass, but that's a training problem, not a socialization problem. A dog who checks in with his owner and ignores others is absolutely well trained, but may or may not be bomb proof and well socialized.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ayln said:


> I'm not 100% sure if I've ever seen a well-socialized dog in my neighborhood, although I have seen dogs that will just ignore you completely when walking past you on leash, so I think that would be it? The loveliest dog I've seen in the past few weeks was a husky who always checked in with his/her owner and never paid any attention to other people or dogs other than a cursory glance. My friend's dog is fairly okay at ignoring people on walks but is wary of other dogs and will bark at certain people at the window. The worst dog I've seen would freeze up many many yards away and fixate on short-haired women and Asian men and would lunge and bark at them if they came too close even if they ignored her.


There's a difference between training and socialization, absolutely agreed. My dogs are comfortable everywhere we go, and do get taken around quite a bit - but on the street they are, in fact, going to ignore the daylights out of you. Ironically, while you're calling that 'better socialized' I've been accused of having antisocial dogs because they know danged well that when we're on a real walk, as opposed to at home, they're supposed to either keep walking or move to the side, sit and wait. So they pay no attention at all to people or dogs or bikes or horses or - 

But approach them and they'll give you a wiggle butt greeting. Except Jack who will still sit there and look long suffering.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Oh, after the reactive dog, anything that's non-reactive is "well-socialized" to me! Sure, I would like for my dog to greet people and dogs nicely and be social (and the breed I want is generally considered social so no problems there), but if I met a person with a dog who is "antisocial" like you describe yours to be, I would think that they were well-mannered and well-trained.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Because dogs are individuals, there really can't be any hard and fast rules. Steady dogs will be fine without socialization and highly fearful dogs will fail even with it. That said, I purchased my last pup from a very contientious breeder after a lifetime of taking in rescues. My breeder followed the Dunbar Rulebook to the last detail. When I got my whippet, she had seen and done about everything. My breeder threw puppy parties and wore hats and had kids and men over. I have to say, I have the bravest and most confident little whippet on the planet. It's a blessing. Do what you can. Weigh out your specific parvo risk against your need for socialization. Parvo is real and dangerous. Fearful and reactive isn't much fun either. Find the balance that makes sense for you and your pup and do the best you can. Don't panic. Enjoy puppyhood. It passes too quickly.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

I too am trying to find the balance in my head between doing everything "perfect" (especially since adolescence seems to exacerbate any lapses in training) and enjoying a puppy as a puppy. My brain tends to be either very strict on things: potty -> play -> confine, repeat! or too lax. Nobody in my family has ever had a dog; they're either cat people or strictly no pets, so I do freak out over these things since I don't have someone with experience nearby and I can't afford a behaviorist if something goes wrong. After my shelter dog experience I realized just how limited free advice from real people can be especially if they haven't seen the dog or me (got tons of advice to buy this book and do that, which I did, didn't help, never got any followup, etc) so I definitely don't want to mess up a puppy. That said, of course I'm getting a dog for an enjoyable experience, so... yeah. Perhaps I need to learn how to go with the flow and roll with the punches


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> My personal feeling is that how many people you need to meet is very dependent on the dog's genetic temperament. Some dogs, labs for example, are generally happy and friendly with every person and dog they meet, whether they were extensively socialized or not. If you want a totally bombproof dog for things like therapy work, you're better off socializing the heck out of that lab, but even minimally socialized labs usually turn out to be sweet dogs and this is one reason they're so popular and recommended for new owners.


Agree with this. Much of it is genetic. Sure, you can socialize a dog, but if the genetics dictate a tendency toward fear and aggression, then you're only going to be successful to a point. And on the flip side, if the genetics dictate open and friendly, then you could probably do minimal socialization and still get a well-adjusted dog. Extensive socialization is advisable, but it's not a guarantee.

My dog is a prime example of this. She's a social butterfly, loves everyone including adults, children, and other dogs. She fears very little in this world. After we ate thanksgiving dinner, we all sat down to play a board game and she curled up for a nap with her head in the lap of a perfect stranger. She actually prefers men over women (atypical, I know), but counts many women among her very best friends, too. And yet I got her at the pound, long after the socialization window was closed. Based on her lack of training, I highly doubt her previous owners went out of their way to socialize her, and frankly, I never purposely put any effort into it either.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

ayln said:


> Sorry if I sound really ignorant, but after reading Dunbar, it sounds like you'll totally fail as a dog parent and raise a terrible dog if you're not 1000% on this "critical socialization period". Has anyone NOT ended up with such a dog, who didn't follow this method?


I got my GSD puppy when she was 12 weeks, so by all means she should be a mess. But she is not. She is a wonderful, very balanced, well tempered dog. She has finished several training classes, got her CGC, and is now in agility.


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Agree with this. Much of it is genetic. Sure, you can socialize a dog, but if the genetics dictate a tendency toward fear and aggression, then you're only going to be successful to a point. And on the flip side, if the genetics dictate open and friendly, then you could probably do minimal socialization and still get a well-adjusted dog. Extensive socialization is advisable, but it's not a guarantee.


Yes. Have you seen that Nova show, "Dogs Decoded"? I watched it on Netflix the other day. There is a segment where dog experienced people raise Grey Wolf pups, in their homes, as if they were puppies...making huge efforts to socialize them to humans. When the wolf pups reach about five months old, they are NOT acting likes dogs...not making eye contact, etc... They also show some researchers in Siberia who did some really interesting experiments. They've bred Silver Foxes for 50 years...many generations. They bred the friendlier/tamer foxes to each other and the more aggressive foxes to each other, and ended up with some very sweet and friendly foxes and some nasty ass foxes. Then they had tame foxes raised by aggressive foxes or vice versa. They even implanted tame fox embryos into aggressive mothers and vice versa. The pretty conclusively proved that genetics are a BIG deal. 

It made me feel much better about my young BC mix. I know who her parents were, but never met them in person. She's a great dog, very sweet when she's comfortable, but, with adulthood, she has become dog selective and wary of some people...despite some pretty big effort (time/money/training/experts) to do my absolute best by her on training and socialization. I really think she is the best dog she could be (for a pet, which is what we want, I think she could be more in a sport or working home), but she's not perfect and requires some careful management, particularly around other dogs. Fortunately, we've also had an AGGRESSIVE ACD for 15 years, so I am an old hand at managing a touchy dog. This dog is actually a relief, because she's just dog selective, not dog aggressive. I'm very glad that she ended up here, because we can manage her, it would have stunk for her if she'd gone home with any of the number of first time dog owners that were at the rescue picking up all these various puppies off a truck from Ohio (the others were all Lab mixes)...the rescue pushed her on us (had the ACD with us, along with vet and ACO references) and now I know why, they knew her parents first hand and probably had a clue. 

She's a great dog, no mistake, but she is what she is, despite tons of training (has a great recall, which helps a lot!).


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Canaqua said:


> Yes. Have you seen that Nova show, "Dogs Decoded"? I watched it on Netflix the other day. There is a segment where dog experienced people raise Grey Wolf pups, in their homes, as if they were puppies...making huge efforts to socialize them to humans. When the wolf pups reach about five months old, they are NOT acting likes dogs...not making eye contact, etc... They also show some researchers in Siberia who did some really interesting experiments. They've bred Silver Foxes for 50 years...many generations. They bred the friendlier/tamer foxes to each other and the more aggressive foxes to each other, and ended up with some very sweet and friendly foxes and some nasty ass foxes. Then they had tame foxes raised by aggressive foxes or vice versa. They even implanted tame fox embryos into aggressive mothers and vice versa. The pretty conclusively proved that genetics are a BIG deal.
> 
> It made me feel much better about my young BC mix. I know who her parents were, but never met them in person. She's a great dog, very sweet when she's comfortable, but, with adulthood, she has become dog selective and wary of some people...despite some pretty big effort (time/money/training/experts) to do my absolute best by her on training and socialization. I really think she is the best dog she could be (for a pet, which is what we want, I think she could be more in a sport or working home), but she's not perfect and requires some careful management, particularly around other dogs. Fortunately, we've also had an AGGRESSIVE ACD for 15 years, so I am an old hand at managing a touchy dog. This dog is actually a relief, because she's just dog selective, not dog aggressive. I'm very glad that she ended up here, because we can manage her, it would have stunk for her if she'd gone home with any of the number of first time dog owners that were at the rescue picking up all these various puppies off a truck from Ohio (the others were all Lab mixes)...the rescue pushed her on us (had the ACD with us, along with vet and ACO references) and now I know why, they knew her parents first hand and probably had a clue.
> 
> She's a great dog, no mistake, but she is what she is, despite tons of training (has a great recall, which helps a lot!).


Thank you for the inspiration of the evening! I just turned this on Netflix.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

That is extremely inspiring. I'll be extra careful when I pick out my puppy now. 

(And darn, I just canceled my Netflix!)


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Socialization, like training, isnt something you do for x number of weeks/months, its a life long journey. Some breeds/mixes are easier to socialize than others. A friend and I each have a male dog about the same age and size that we walk at similar times of the day in just about the same areas. Tonka has a short, dark brindle coat while Buster has a fluffy mostly white coat. In many cases people were afraid of Tonka but drawn to Buster. So while I had a very easy time of socializing Bus, my friend really struggled to find people that wanted to meet Tonka.

Bus came home afraid of the world. Normal, everyday situations (a dog barking, a sign creaking in the wind...) would trigger him to cower and wet himself or bolt. After almost 4 years together and pretty much daily work we've overcome a lot as well as toning down the intensity of any reaction...but its still there. Socialization has helped but not overcome his genetic tendency to respond fearfully.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Yeah, I don't plan on keeping my dog inside forever once he's "socialized". In fact, the reason why I'm so concerned is because I do want to be able to take him out and have him be happy and not afraid of every little thing. The breeder I am working with currently has been very encouraging and forthcoming about the parents of the litter and I feel optimistic that at least the basic temperament of the puppy will be fairly stable and brave.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I think of it this way: genetics dictates a range of possible fear levels that a dog will fall within. Let's say on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being very confident, genetics dictates that the dog will fall somewhere in the 8-10 range. Poor socialization will result in an 8, great socialization will result in a 10, but either way, the dog is not going to be extremely fearful. For a different dog, genetics dictates that the dog will fall somewhere in the 3-5 range. Poor socialization will result in a 3, great socialization will result in a 5. Either way, the dog is going to be somewhat fearful. 

Researchers suspect that a lot of traits work this way. I've heard human intelligence described this way.

A friend of mine purchased a dog from a fantastic breeder a couple years ago. This friend happens to be very experienced with raising dogs, and she even teaches puppy socialization classes on a regular basis. I have every confidence in her ability to socialize a dog. A couple of months after getting the puppy, she admitted that socialization wasn't going well - the dog was extremely fearful of new things despite all her best efforts. Eventually, she rehomed the pup for a variety of reasons - health concerns were the main issue. The replacement pup is great, and she has used all the same methods.

Yes, I've seen the NOVA special on netflix. It's a great show.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@ayln - what would you like in a dog? Make a list, there are approaches, some that even minimize genetic tendencies.

@Canaqua - Recent research: Why Wolves Aren't Tamed: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130117152012.htm


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

@hanksimon: I'm looking for a dog with moderate energy, social, playful, but can be couch potatoes (won't bounce off the walls if I can't walk them for a day), easily trainable and obedient, good with other dogs. I'm looking at corgis right now; I know they can be a little mischievous but in general they fit my description pretty well.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ayln said:


> @hanksimon: I'm looking for a dog with moderate energy, social, playful, but can be couch potatoes (won't bounce off the walls if I can't walk them for a day), easily trainable and obedient, good with other dogs. I'm looking at corgis right now; I know they can be a little mischievous but in general they fit my description pretty well.


Sounds like you'll just want to make sure you identify that the dog has a solid on/off switch (or should) from a breeder or rescue when looking.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

ayln said:


> @hanksimon: I'm looking for a dog with moderate energy, social, playful, but can be couch potatoes (won't bounce off the walls if I can't walk them for a day), easily trainable and obedient, good with other dogs. I'm looking at corgis right now; I know they can be a little mischievous but in general they fit my description pretty well.


Consider a whippet!!! I swear by them!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> Consider a whippet!!! I swear by them!


Or a rat terrier. (What? There's some whippet in there )


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> Consider a whippet!!! I swear by them!


I met an awesome whippet at a show over the weekend; his name was Howard. I fell in love. He was the cutest little thing and smart as a whip!  I really wanted to just take him home with me.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I met an awesome whippet at a show over the weekend; his name was Howard. I fell in love. He was the cutest little thing and smart as a whip!  I really wanted to just take him home with me.



Coolest little dogs on the planet. Sweet, gently, fun, athletic, SMART. Kinda perfect. Not sure why they aren't more popular!


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

I was initially drawn to whippets but saw that they were prone to SA since they tend to be a little more clingy. After my first experience with SA (even withdrawing attention was causing bouts of howling) I definitely needed a dog that could be just a little more standoffish.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ayln said:


> I too am trying to find the balance in my head between doing everything "perfect" (especially since adolescence seems to exacerbate any lapses in training) and enjoying a puppy as a puppy. My brain tends to be either very strict on things: potty -> play -> confine, repeat! or too lax. Nobody in my family has ever had a dog; they're either cat people or strictly no pets, so I do freak out over these things since I don't have someone with experience nearby and I can't afford a behaviorist if something goes wrong. After my shelter dog experience I realized just how limited free advice from real people can be especially if they haven't seen the dog or me (got tons of advice to buy this book and do that, which I did, didn't help, never got any followup, etc) so I definitely don't want to mess up a puppy. That said, of course I'm getting a dog for an enjoyable experience, so... yeah. Perhaps I need to learn how to go with the flow and roll with the punches


You're not going to do everything perfect, but your puppy will be just fine anyway. 

I like the Owens book as well, also I like Patricia McConnell (and co-author whose name I can never remember)'s The Puppy Primer.

I personally usually err on the socialization side of socializing/infectious disease risk. Probably some people here would think I was pretty cavalier with Squash, actually. I didn't take him to dog parks, but I did walk in the neighborhood on the sidewalk and in the alley, go to pet stores, play dates with neighbor's dogs, and he came to work with me almost every day. We have a low incidence of parvo here, and he was always pretty wary of new things, so that's just how my risk assessment and comfort levels shook out. I do think it made a difference in his adult confidence levels, not that he would have been an awful, fearful dog as he has good bounce-back, but I do think he learned how to cope with novel things better than he would have if we hadn't worked SO hard on it. 

Also... he went through a phase as a young puppy where he would poop in his crate all the time and every single time he rode in the car (twice a day on the days I brought him to work!!!!!), and he still got housetrained (probably the most reliable of my 3, actually). So it will all be ok even if everything isn't perfectly by the book.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Yay. 

Again, just real paranoid after a shelter dog experience (where people reassured me she was a good dog, "just" insecure), so I've seen what "bad" looks like and I just worry about getting to that point. But I'm starting to see that a combination of genetics and basically just giving it that old college try seems to be good enough for most dogs, and if I'm careful with puppy selection it'll probably end up being alright.

I have no idea what the parvo risk is like in my neighborhood, so until I can get a good vet's opinion on that I'll probably just have to wait and see. Honestly I'd feel pretty awkward about carrying my dog around, how did everyone else manage that? I do live by a very yuppie shopping area that does go for the dogs in bags/strollers thing so I guess I would be right at home there, but what about other places?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ayln said:


> Yay.
> 
> Again, just real paranoid after a shelter dog experience (where people reassured me she was a good dog, "just" insecure), so I've seen what "bad" looks like and I just worry about getting to that point. But I'm starting to see that a combination of genetics and basically just giving it that old college try seems to be good enough for most dogs, and if I'm careful with puppy selection it'll probably end up being alright.
> 
> I have no idea what the parvo risk is like in my neighborhood, so until I can get a good vet's opinion on that I'll probably just have to wait and see. Honestly I'd feel pretty awkward about carrying my dog around, how did everyone else manage that? I do live by a very yuppie shopping area that does go for the dogs in bags/strollers thing so I guess I would be right at home there, but what about other places?


If parvo is a risk in your area, you will have to carry the puppy or sanitize carts and push puppy in a cart (or stroller if you have one) until it gets all of it's shots. Otherwise it simply won't be safe. I was lucky enough to have a 25 acre private dog park that we were able to spend 12 hours a week at from 7 weeks old with ALL fully vaccinated and safe dogs. If I didn't have the park, I would be in a pet store every day for a half hour carrying around my puppy, personally. Or going to play dates with friend's dogs, etc.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Really, I just didn't carry Shambles around. He was a big puppy and the only time I held him in my arms was at the vet's office just to avoid him standing in highly dog traffic areas.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kylie was tiny. I just put her on my forearm, and went about my business/on the walk. Thud's... not tiny. I do a lot more careful playdate type excursions with him. But for a small dog, it's just not a thing. Tuck them like a football, body along my forearm, hand on their chest, and carry on with life. Heck, sometimes I sat her on the ipad (case), held the ipad flat between my body and hand like a platform, and carried on.


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## starrysim (Dec 2, 2012)

ayln said:


> (BTW, does anyone have a more positive puppy book or expert to recommend, who doesn't make people feel like their puppy is a glass statue just waiting to be shattered? And then not offer any help if said puppy happens to be "set up for failure"?)


Yes. Try Brian Kilcommons' books. I've been reading My Smart Puppy. Sounds just like what you're looking for.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Really, I just didn't carry Shambles around. He was a big puppy and the only time I held him in my arms was at the vet's office just to avoid him standing in highly dog traffic areas.


Same here. He walked everywhere we went. But again, I'm pretty comfortable with the parvo risk around here. 

Anyway, IMO all of our puppies and dogs are very likely exposed to parvovirus more or less constantly unless we not only put them in a plastic bubble but join them in there. It's just ubiquitous.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Same here. He walked everywhere we went. But again, I'm pretty comfortable with the parvo risk around here.
> 
> Anyway, IMO all of our puppies and dogs are very likely exposed to parvovirus more or less constantly unless we not only put them in a plastic bubble but join them in there. It's just ubiquitous.


Yeah, I can imagine the information for new puppy owners is horrifying. Parvo every where! Death sentence! KEEP THEM INSIDE. 

No thanks. I saw zero need to carry him around a pet store, and I saw even less need to wrap him in saran wrap. We didn't go to high traffic pet stores and I held him at the vet, but we walked around the neighborhood and met neighborhood dogs. Our neighborhood doesn't have puppies, just consistent adult dogs that we know and their owners. My only real "Oh god" moment was I had just started at the shelter and my interview was in an intake kennel where a bunch of puppies then tested positive for parvo. I didn't know at the time, but from that point forward I didn't wear the same clothes or shoes in the house. Shambles lived to destroy the world as he sees fit.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

Ah, so I'm guessing with a corgi puppy it ain't no thang. Of course I'm also talking about carrying them around at 8-12 weeks; after 14 or when the vaccine takes I don't think there would be a huge problem.

@DJEtzel There's a members-only dog park in my area that only allows vaccinated dogs and such, and I plan to enroll there once s/he's old enough (they have to be 16 weeks old). They do test for behavior too but I think they only care about really aggressive or really shy dogs that are in danger of injuring others or being picked on.

I really don't know about my neighborhood. There are some shady characters that live around here and a lot of the dog owners are pretty irresponsible, you wouldn't believe just how much dog crap is on my lawn (and sometimes driveway) because their owners just don't care. A lot of the dogs are kept outside and bark and howl whenever anyone walks by their house. So I don't think I would be walking my puppy until I was sure of their vaccinations and just do classes and some loose leash training till then.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Doesn't have to be your neighborhood. It's always possible to find dogs to socialize with. Hell, in our last city we found a posting by a couple with multiple dogs looking for play dates to socialize their three dogs. They asked people to meet up before hand to share shot records before allowing any one to come, and it worked out great.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

That sounds like a good idea, thanks!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ayln said:


> @DJEtzel There's a members-only dog park in my area that only allows vaccinated dogs and such, and I plan to enroll there once s/he's old enough (they have to be 16 weeks old). They do test for behavior too but I think they only care about really aggressive or really shy dogs that are in danger of injuring others or being picked on.


It was definitely a godsend for our socialization efforts.  Recon is six months old now and does not pay a bit of attention to dogs ANYWHERE we go and can easily work off leash near other dogs while focusing on me, because we spent so much time training at the dog park.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Bichon Frise ? dachshund Golden Retriever


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I also didn't carry my puppy - Watson walked on his own from when I got him at 9 weeks.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> Bichon Frise ? dachshund Golden Retriever


I sort of considered Bichon's but I'm not too big on small breeds. Same with Dachshunds, and plus they are reaaaally loud and tend to be stubborn/picky. I do kind of like golden retrievers but I feel like they are too velcro and have too much energy for my needs.


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## ayln (Dec 23, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Kylie was tiny. I just put her on my forearm, and went about my business/on the walk. Thud's... not tiny. I do a lot more careful playdate type excursions with him. But for a small dog, it's just not a thing. Tuck them like a football, body along my forearm, hand on their chest, and carry on with life. Heck, sometimes I sat her on the ipad (case), held the ipad flat between my body and hand like a platform, and carried on.


So you just... walked around the neighborhood with Kylie tucked under your arm like a football? Hehe.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ayln said:


> I sort of considered Bichon's but I'm not too big on small breeds. Same with Dachshunds, and plus they are reaaaally loud and tend to be stubborn/picky. I do kind of like golden retrievers but I feel like they are too velcro and have too much energy for my needs.


I think if you got a showline Golden with a great off switch, you'd be pleasantly surprised. There are about 70 goldens that are members at the park where I work and I don't think a single dog's owner would say those guys are Velcro-y or needy. I work with a golden one day a week. I wouldn't even know she was there if she didn't get up for treats whenever someone walked in the door. XD (she's battling a weight issue currently, you can see why)


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## scott strachan (Dec 13, 2012)

Ok, I'm jumping into the middle of this conversation. I adopted Pork chop, a French Bulldog, at approximately 9 months old. His owner had to give him up because his ex-girlfriend didn't have the time to give him the attention he needed. I feel like I have been playing catch up ever since I brought him home as far as socilization goes and am afraid I missed the bus.

I strive to expose Pork chop to as many people and other animals in a controlled setting as I possibly can. He does great at the dog park around other animals. At home with my wife and kids (5&3) he is fantastic. However if he even sees someone he does not know his hair raises on his back. There have been situations where someone will bend over to pet him and he has nipped them without any of the obvious dog warnings (growling, etc). His hair does however raise on his hind quarters and that is his only indication of anxiety. I say nipped because I do not believe he bit out of aggression but fear. However I am now concerned about how he will act around strangers. I ask people not to approach him but want him to be well adjusted. He is now just over one year. 

I want to continue trying to socialize him without endangering/scaring anyone else. Does anyone have any suggestions? I was going to get a mask to disguise my features and work with him that way. Some suggestions were working with a partner and approach one another. When your dog shows signs (raised hair) stop and backup until he has a chance to see you and realize everything is ok. Then repeat, repeat, repeat.

What I dont want is to have to put him in a kennel in the garage whenever we have guests, or warn people not to approach when walking him.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

Hi Scott, 

Good for you, you see the issue and want to work on it! Let me give you a new way of looking at this. Every time you put him in the situation where he reacts with fear, you are practicing that behavior. The more we practice a behavior the more set in stone it becomes. The approach you want to take is more avoid the negative behavior/reaction and practice the desired behavior/reaction.

The best method is to work on replacing his negative associations with good ones. You work at a level where the frightening stimulus is noticed but the dog can still be helped to relax and feel confident. Then you very gradually increase expossure as long as you remain at a level where you avoid negative responses. I did a google search for "dog desensitization counterconditioning" and will post a few links that came up. There is a lot of information on the web along this line.

Now, the behavior of a stranger bending over your dog to pet him is, in dog body language terms, a threatening posture. Even after you go through a re-training program, this is a situation that you should probably never allow. 

Here's links
http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pe...n-desensitization-and-counterconditioning/131

http://www.aspca.org/Pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/desensitization-and-counterconditioning

http://pets.webmd.com/desensitization-and-counterconditioning

http://phs-spca.org/resource/pdf/dog/DesensitizationCounterconditioning.pdf

Another really good thing you can do is obedience training. A class would be good socialization as long as the teacher is aware and will help avoid getting your dog to his trigger point. The best thing about training your dog is that it makes you more of a strong leader that inspires confidence in your dog. Now here's my favorite analogy: Imagine you are walking down a dark alley with a friend and you need to pass by a group of kids that look a lot like a gang looking for trouble. Scary. Now imagine that you are walking down that same alley, but not with a friend. You are walking with Superman. Are you scared now? Heck no! The more confidence your dog has in you, the more he can relax. The more obedience he has, the more he feels like he knows what he is supposed to do. If your dog is trained, you can develop a "greeting behavior" that is more ritualized and will help your dog relax.

Another thing that will help your dog trust you to keep him safe, is by doing just that. Keeping him safe. If someone approaches when you have him on leash, step forward and intercept the person before they can approach your dog. Just step forward, say Hi. If it's someone you know put your hand out for a handshake. If they want to pet your dog always put his well being before the human's desire. Come up with a standard response that comes out easily. Get good at the subtle body block.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

scott strachan said:


> Ok, I'm jumping into the middle of this conversation. I adopted Pork chop, a French Bulldog, at approximately 9 months old. His owner had to give him up because his ex-girlfriend didn't have the time to give him the attention he needed. I feel like I have been playing catch up ever since I brought him home as far as socilization goes and am afraid I missed the bus.
> 
> I strive to expose Pork chop to as many people and other animals in a controlled setting as I possibly can. He does great at the dog park around other animals. At home with my wife and kids (5&3) he is fantastic. However if he even sees someone he does not know his hair raises on his back. There have been situations where someone will bend over to pet him and he has nipped them without any of the obvious dog warnings (growling, etc). His hair does however raise on his hind quarters and that is his only indication of anxiety. I say nipped because I do not believe he bit out of aggression but fear. However I am now concerned about how he will act around strangers. I ask people not to approach him but want him to be well adjusted. He is now just over one year.
> 
> ...


http://fearfuldogs.com/ is going to be an awesome resource for you. There is a great section on behavioral adjustment training that helps you understand and work with a dog's triggers. 

For the time being though, even if you don't want to, it's important that you don't let your dog in too close of proximity of his triggers. It's going to set him back if he's repeatedly triggered by things he has a negative association with, rather than help decrease his fear of those triggers.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Read through the advice you've been given. It'll help you understand what's going on so that you can adapt to Pork Chop's needs.

Here are some specific things to consider:
1. PorkChop may have been taught, not to growl. It's a fairly common new owner mistake that the previous owner could have done, even by accident. You always want a dog to growl a warning, to give you a chance to back away from his trigger. Not something for you to do, just to observe for now. However, some Frenchies are so quick, they simply don't growl....
2. Your observation sounds correct that PorkChop is showing signs of Fear Aggression. I believe that is a good sign that if you can desensitize and socialize him, he'll be fine.
3. Don't let anyone loom over him for now. Don't let strangers try to pick him up or put their faces within biting range... It sounds like common sense, but that can be lacking in children and some "non-professional" adults who assert dog-knowledge.
4. You've already noticed the hindquarters hackles as a sign of fear. Oter signs can be a cold stare, a slightly averted stare (watching out of the corner of his eye), a quick tongue flick or nose lick, maybe a yawn before or after an encounter. Before the hacles go up, you may see the tongue flick - it can be subtle and quick .... That might be your first indication of the trigger point, giving time to back off.
5. Working with a partner is good - greeting, talking, and ignoring PorkChop initially. One scenario to consider:
A. Go to the dog park and greet someone warmly, with PorkChop nearby but ignored.
B. Next interaction - a few hours later or the next day: Greet the person and have them sit on a bench or chair, ignore PorkChop.
C. Next interaction - a few hours later or the next day: Greet the person and have them sit on a bench or chair, and have them toss a treat over PorkChop's head, but otherwise ignore PorkChop. Make two more tosses, then STOP... continue to ignore PorkChop, but watch him....
D. PorkChop should be very interested in your partner, who has good things to eat and is not threatening.
E. If possible, toss a treat in front of PorkChop. If he looks interested, Hold a treat in an open hand at PorkChop's level, never looking at him, but continuing to hold a conversation, and ignoring PorkChop. ideally, he'll tentatively take the treat... Allow and ignore. Don't move.
F. Toss another treat over PorkChop's head, immediately place the open hand at PorkChop's level, with nothing in it.
G. If PorkChop comes and sniff's the hand, the Partner can say Hello. If PorkChop nuzzle the hand, the Partner can try to scratch under the jaw, stopping if PorkChop backs off... ProkChop is always in complete control and can back away when he wants to.
H. Modify this for the situation - You may have to do this at your house, rather than the dog park - and repeat with more people. After the first two or three people, it can go fairly quickly. But PorkChop is in control and controls the timing...
I. We've tried a modification of this with other dogs. Had a Lab go from fearful to goofy in 10 min. Had a Pit go from tentative to "please slap me around" after just two treats. ... Not all dogs were 100% successful, though...
J. It's important to set up positive expectations of treats, and then Stop to give him a chance to react ... or go away, if desired. He'll come around in his own time.


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## scott strachan (Dec 13, 2012)

Wow, thanks for the input, support, and suggestions. What a great community. I have some reading to do today for sure, and quite a bit of work as well. Porkchop is a great dog and I want to work with him. 
Wish Me Luck!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mia has one of those temperaments that I think socialization can make or break. She is just very on edge a lot of the time, reactive and not outgoing when it comes to people or dogs, she is a touch flighty and also enjoys picking fights. Summer on the other hand is the prime example of a dog that is so solid it's going to turn out the way they're going to turn out. She just loves people so much that overcomes pretty much anything else. I actually think they both have 'good' temperaments although Mia especially isn't a dog a lot of people would enjoy as much. I've gotten a lot of compliments from dog people who have met her but it's been a lot of work.

I didn't get Mia till she was 16 weeks old. She was socialized but not as socialized as I would have done myself. She is a strange combination of bold and just doing the first thing that pops to her mind and then wary of new people. Jumping off that tall wall over there? fun. Meeting new people? Scary. 

I think there is a trap that people can fall into with this kind of dog. They want to make that dog into a Summer. That is not going to happen regardless of socialization. It is like people have said- there is only so far you can take a dog on a socialization scale. Genetics are a big part of things.

Micro-managing every interaction (which I have seen some people refer to as 'socialization') and trying to force a positive interaction can have some worse repercussions than just not having as many interactions. Ex: If the dog is scared of strangers, trying to make the dog take treats from a stranger and get petted when it is clearly uncomfortable can make anxiety and fear worse. The best thing I have found with Mia is to take her everywhere possible and teach her to trust in me. We try to experience a lot as far as places, noises, but she never has to interact with people and dogs. All experiences with that is on Mia's terms, never forced. Classes have helped immensely in boosting her confidence.

We got her CGC first round just fine. She's pretty bombproof to take everywhere nowadays. but she's not in your face friendly like Summer. But as far as what her potential is to be, I feel like we are right at the top.

It does help having a dog like Summer to direct people to when they want to pet my dogs. I can have Summer hamming it up and Mia can keep ehr distance and approach if she feels like it.


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