# Educator E-Collar



## Aztex (Jan 30, 2015)

Hi,
I have a 4+ month old ~20 week old ~20lb terrier mix. She is a very sweet girl and a lot of fun. Her behavior is typical of such a puppy. She doesn't come when called and jerks on the leash and chases every leaf that floats by etc...

I travel a lot and spend a lot of my time working in the back country so she will be with me a lot in remote places. She needs to learn to respond within a month or so.


I contacted a dog trainer with great reviews, 17 years experience. They suggest an E-collar approach, an Educator seen here:

http://www.amazon.com/Educator--300...=UTF8&qid=1426375651&sr=8-4&keywords=e-collar

The collar seems very humane. They tried it on me at the settings appropriate for the dog training we will do and I barely felt it. It is simply an attention getter, not a punishment or pain inflicting.

I will be trained along with the dog for 6 weeks.

Anyone have experience with such collars?
Is 4-5 months old too young to start with such training? In other words should I give the dog a chance to grow up?

Any thing to be watchful for?

Thanks,

Aztex


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Yes, I have experience with e-collars, and I would NEVER, EVER recommend them as a 'first approach' to training (pretty much) anything, and I would definitely NEVER recommend them to be used on a 4 month old puppy. The fallout can be severe, life long & something she (or your relationship with her) will never recover from. 

She *needs* to learn to respond within a month? What does that even mean? If she doesn't have a reliable recall, just keep her on a leash or long line. Pretty simple solution that doesn't depend on punishment. 

Here's an article for you to read & consider, before going through with your training plan:
http://media.wix.com/ugd/8d4174_85c9f596a96e4f9b9bfac71295b8ec49.pdf

I sincerely hope you reconsider & decide to follow more modern, humane, positive reinforcement based training options with your puppy.


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## Aztex (Jan 30, 2015)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> Yes, I have experience with e-collars, and I would NEVER, EVER recommend them as a 'first approach' to training (pretty much) anything, and I would definitely NEVER recommend them to be used on a 4 month old puppy. The fallout can be severe, life long & something she (or your relationship with her) will never recover from.
> 
> She *needs* to learn to respond within a month? What does that even mean? If she doesn't have a reliable recall, just keep her on a leash or long line. Pretty simple solution that doesn't depend on punishment.
> 
> ...


Your link is about shock collars.

The Educator e-collar is not a shock collar and has settings so low as to hardly be felt. They are vibrations to get attention.

Have you heard negative about the Educator brand? Did you see the link? Unfortunately the website is down at the moment, was up yesterday, for more info.

Thanks,

Aztex


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

It is the puppy, not the human, that would decide if something is an attention getter or if it is scary or painful.

I am not a fan of e-collars. I do admit they can have their uses though. Training recall for a 4 month old puppy is not one of those uses.

Any time you use punishment based training, it has the risk of negative fall out. Fearful dog etc. In a puppy, that risk is increased as compared to say, a confident adult dog. Short cutting training is an issue in general, you want to build good lifelong habits rather than instill fear for now. 

A long line and lots of rewards for recall would be my tactic. You can get a cheap long line at a farm store as a "horse lunge line" but those are often cotton and absorb water and mud and catch on burrs. Another option is a synthetic poly rope type tracking line but my favorite is a biothane line. Totally waterproof, smooth and nothing to catch on burrs or branches, fairly lightweight.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I use an e-collar and please believe me all shock collars have settings that can barely be felt by a human or have vibrations. They also have settings that case pain, and they work by causing some distress to the dog. Again: I use them (under some circumstances). I don't think they're evil, at all.

But. 

There is no reason, ever, to resort to even a very mild one for a typical 4 month old puppy who is exhibiting normal puppy behavior. Try some food, praise, and methods that have zero chance of negative fallout first, and give your puppy a chance to LEARN, and mature. An e-collar on a pup is so far into the realm of overkill it's akin to using a 2X4 to swat a fly. It's just asinine.


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## Aztex (Jan 30, 2015)

Hi,

I appreciate the concerned responses but the collar in question is not a shock collar and the training does not use high levels.

The trainers said there is are higher settings and these to be used only for emergency situations; a rattle snake, a coyote etc....something really make the dog stop. 

I could not feel the vibrations at the level they said they use for training and only going 5 more levels was I able to detect a slight vibration.

So any specific Educator e-collar experience? Their site is back up: http://www.educatorcollars.com/educator-et-300ts-mini.html

Thanks,

Aztex


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

"Shocking' 'Stimulation' 'Vibration' - it doesn't matter what you call it, the basic premise is the same. It is a training protocol based on *stopping* behavior. What STOPS behavior IS punishment. This is simple learning theory. The (whatever you want to call it) sensation MUST be aversive enough that the puppy does not want to repeat the undesired behavior. 

What it doesn't address is how you are going to reinforce the behavior/s that you do desire her to perform. Any trainer that suggests putting any sort of electronic training device on a 4 month old puppy is (I can pretty much guarantee) a punishment based trainer. At best, they will have you sending mixed messages to her (using both positive punishment & positive rewards) which will, generally, slow learning & muddy her responses.

Can this type of training yield a 'well trained dog'? Well, yes, it can. It can also, and very likely will, yield a robotic dog that loses her 'spark' and zest for learning.

I would ask you - why are you reluctant to even try a more positive, relationship-building training method? Teach her what you DO want, via reinforcement & management, rather than simply seek to extinguish behaviors you deem 'undesirable' (but are perfectly normal for a pup of her tender age)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

IT IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS EVERY OTHER ECOLLAR. I USE A SHOCK COLLAR. It has low settings. It vibrates. It has high settings for emergency situations. It is not unique. I do not know how to make that more plain to you. It is not a special snowflake that carries no risk of fallout just because it doesn't hurt YOU badly. It works by making actions unpleasant to the dog. That is HOW it is effective. It does not have to be uncomfortable for you to be aversive to the dog and I promise if your dog does not respond to lower settings the answer is to turn it up until the dog does. I do not know how to make that more plain to you. 

It's A SHOCK COLLAR just like every other shock collar onthe market. Go look at some. They're **exactly** the same! I looked into it at one point for my deaf dog. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE, it just happens to come with a different PR team and higher price tag. It is JUST as inappropriate for a puppy.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If the dog can't feel the vibrations, then the collar is irrelevent. If the dog can feel the vibrations enough to make the dog change course, then it is acting as a negative stimulus.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> If the dog can't feel the vibrations, then the collar is irrelevent. If the dog can feel the vibrations enough to make the dog change course, then it is acting as a negative stimulus.


Unless conditioned the same way a clicker would be, where the dog responds to the vibration to get a treat. This is only useful if the dog is deaf. It also makes it useless as a deterrent for any sort of behavior change since it tehn communicates yes instead of no. (And even if the dog is deaf - too young for that kind of training).


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Unless conditioned the same way a clicker would be, where the dog responds to the vibration to get a treat. This is only useful if the dog is deaf.


True. But I would highly suspect that this trainer referenced would not be working to associate the vibrations with a treat or reward. Even then, a puppy might have trouble getting past the vibrations, esp if they are cranked up until the dog really reacts.

Technically, one could condition a dog to a variety of painful or negative stimulus with enough treats but it wouldn't make it the best way to go about things. (I am not at all saying that you paging Bug with an collar is bad or that it is a negative, just commenting on the concepts in general)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> True. But I would highly suspect that this trainer referenced would not be working to associate the vibrations with a treat or reward. Even then, a puppy might have trouble getting past the vibrations, esp if they are cranked up until the dog really reacts.


Yep. I absolutely added more information. Even a deaf PUPPY I wouldn't put one on for those reasons, and frankly there's no benefit for a hearing dog which means using it as an aversive and even our hardest core 'punishment' trainer on the board says puppies can do no wrong - for good reason. Aversive and puppy is not a good mix. In fact it's a downright scary as heck mix.


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## Aztex (Jan 30, 2015)

OK,

Are you all trainers or just have strong opinions?

I do appreciate this as it expresses concern for my dog.

I'll concede it could be used as a shock collar but that is not the intention in our training as planned. I'm serious when I said I could not feel it and was assured its to be used as a tap on the shoulder, an attention getter, not a punishment...

Is it the dogs age that is the biggest concern?

I am listening to you and starting to rethink the plan.....

I'd love some feedback from someone who has used this specific product. I tried a friends cheaper one and it hurt, this one most defiantly did not inflict anything close to what could be considered pain....

I certainly do not want to break my dog, just get her to respond and behave a little better a little sooner.

Thanks,

I'm listening..

Aztex


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

The problem with your way of looking at the 'sensation' is this -- OK, so at first, you just use the little, light 'tap on the shoulder' to get her attention. But! what if she doesn't respond? You have to 'tap' harder, and harder, and harder until she *does* respond. At what point does it cross the line between a 'friendly, non-aversive tap' and a 'punishment'? Only the dog knows. and once you've crossed that line, there is no going back. The punishments must continue to increase until they are 'effective' at stopping her behavior (call it "getting her attention", it's really the same thing) 

If you want her to respond and behave a little better a little sooner, try working towards establishing a relationship with her using positive training techniques. It is proven to be the fastest & most long-lasting way there is.

PS - My experience is in the shelter environment. I run a volunteer-based training program for at-risk, behaviorally challenged dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I am not a dog trainer. I do have two decades experience in horse training which follows many of the same behavioral principles (as example see: clicker trained rats clear land mines), plus my own dogs and almost a dozen foster dogs which, although not a huge number of fosters dogs, were some of the most difficult the rescue had dealt with. 

I do use some correction based training, mainly a prong collar temporarily for the larger adult dogs to keep us both safe. I do limit correction use to adult dogs who have not shown any fear or stress and when the benefits of getting out and walking out weigh the negatives of using a prong. I have observed e-collar training and also observed its potentially very bad fallout. When rewards aren't working, you up the value of the rewards until the dog thinks they are awesome. No harm, no foul. When punishments aren't working, one either switches to rewards or ups the punishment until the dog thinks it is bad enough to comply (assuming the dog even knows what behavior you are asking for) and as such, the risk of harm increases. Harm can be mental, not just a physical thing.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I own an ecollar and have done a lot of research into ecollar training, and nobody will recommend starting with a puppy less than 6 months. Personally I'm not comfortable before at least a year. My own dog is 2.5 and just starting on ecoar training. And I'm not talking about zapping the crap out of the dog either. I'm talking "tap on the shoulder" minimal stim type training. I would not start a puppy and I don't know any gun dog trainer who would. 

Your pup needs regular positive training at this point, not an ecollar.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Why on earth would someone START with a shock collar on a pup? There's no point in jumping directly to the nuclear option, even if it's the suitcase bomb version of the nuclear option. Aversive training can backfire (ie make things worse rather than better) whereas basically the worst thing that can happen with positive reinforcement methods is that it's ineffective. A 20 lb puppy is not a danger to anyone or, if handled correctly, a flight risk, so it's not like it's an emergency situation. Teach the pup that coming when called is super awesome and learning stuff is super awesome, not that training equals getting zapped, and you'll have a much easier-to-manage dog in the long run.

I was skeptical about straight R+, but I've been using them on my 120 lb monster of a dog for a year, and he's now hands-down the best behaved dog I've ever owned, and so trusting. I'm not inherently opposed to punishment (although I prefer negative punishment to positive punishment when possible), but it makes sense to save it for when you really need it, like behaviors that absolutely have to be extinguished immediately. I can't imagine anything a small 4 month old pup could do that would fall in that category.

Would you be a better employee if your boss was constantly hassling you, or if you knew if you worked hard you were guaranteed a raise and extra perks? Hassling gets results in the short run, but you're gonna have the dog for upwards of a decade, hopefully. Build a positive relationship now.


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## Aztex (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks for all the opinions.

I have at least postponed the lessons using the e-collar and will consult with and consider all the advice from here too.

Thanks again,

Aztex


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Aztex said:


> She needs to learn to respond within a month or so.


 Wait. This is a 4 or 5 month old pup who is chasing leaves, pulling on lead and doesn't have a recall. I don't think it matters what training method you use, your timeline and expectations deserve some serious re-evaluation.

That's mostly what I wanted to say. But since I'm here I'll just add a couple of observations. Interesting, how the manufacturer labels it as the *Educator*. And this part _"Mini ergonomic "stopwatch" transmitter (...) is well-suited for (...) situations where discreetness is important"_ sort of baffles me as to why discreetness is even required in the first place. I guess to put my puzzlement into other words, frankly, I'm damn proud of my force-free training methods and I have no need to hide them from anyone.

Read between the lines. There are reasons for using questionable/deceptive marketing practices such as these.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I work as a dog trainer and agree with everyone above who has adviced against using an e-collar. A 4 month old puppy should be easy to train using reward based methods. Find a trainer to help you with this, or join a reward based puppy class. Or check out user kikopup on Youtube, she has a lot of puppy training videos.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I am a dog trainer and using an e-collar on 4 month old pup is similar to shooting fleas with an elephant gun. 

All people start off with low settings and the 1st time for whatever reason pup ignores it some people decide to up the power. This is done days, weeks, or months after the original e-collar trainer is history.
I'm just sayin.....


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

you have a month... so what could you work on... getting the body motion the mechanics of what you need... every opportunity you have reinforce eye contact.. for every interaction.. ask for eye contact all through the day.. it's quick simple and always rewarding.. reward every time, treat, praise.. and training is done lets go have fun on go on with what you were doing... ( easy for me to bring my finger up to my eye, and make sure they looking into you, not beyond you, not at the treat in your hand. it's so quick and simple it will never feel like training.. Then you want to teach them what comes means, do it in the house where they can be loose and be safe.. come with you when it's time to fix their dinner to sit and watch, eye contact before you put their meals down.. call them to come towards and then throw a toy past you so they can chase it and really teach them to run fast at you so you can later add the come sit in front of you to touch their collar... Another great thing to have is to have them use to you touching their collar before you release them.. nothing like a silly pup to come back but to dart off as soon as you reach for them.. so do the touch collar and release quickly so they wont thing you reaching for them will end their play all the time, and will want to stay to have their collar touched and you will have that solid in them for when you really do need to leash them.. Talk about a breed of pup who just excel in learning when you have small little tid bits to teach them and are rewarding with a treat, chase a ball or a fun toy to tug and let them have it... 

keep them on a long line to keep them safe while they learning... you are their protector from the things they don't know yet... Once a Terrier learns to focus and respond they are such sharp dogs...


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