# i dont feel the love for Cesar in this forum!



## londontami (May 27, 2014)

why does everyone seem to be against cesar milan? i have heard a few negative stories but that goes with the territory, you cant please everyone - am i missing something?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If you search the forum, you'll find many threads discussing Milan and his "training" methods. Basically, his techniques are based on out-dated, dis-proven ideas about dog-human social interactions and rely on intimidating dogs into a state of learned helplessness so they look obedient, but are, in reality, terrified and shut down. Crantastic has collected a number of good resources that discuss his methods:



Crantastic said:


> The Dominance Controversy (by Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS)
> De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory (by Pat Miller, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, CDBC)
> Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog (by Dr. Ian Dunbar)
> AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals (with citations)
> ...


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

cookieface covered it well. 

Also, I think most of us would rather create a working relationship with our dogs based on trust, rather than terrifying them into "submission" and putting them into situations over and over again where they clearly are not comfortable.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Because he's a bully peddling easy answers who doesn't understand how dogs learn or how they communicate, and shuts dogs down instead of fixing them.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

His teeth are too white to be natural; ergo, love for him would be unnatural.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

He has literally no idea what he's talking about. Study the chart below, turn off the sound and watch an episode. Over and over again, he describes fearful, even terrified, dogs as dominant. His techniques have caused countless dogs to be bullied into growling and biting, and many of those dogs to lose their homes afterwards, often ending up at shelters where they are euthanized for being violent.


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## londontami (May 27, 2014)

Amaryllis said:


> He has literally no idea what he's talking about. Study the chart below, turn off the sound and watch an episode. Over and over again, he describes fearful, even terrified, dogs as dominant. His techniques have caused countless dogs to be bullied into growling and biting, and many of those dogs to lose their homes afterwards, often ending up at shelters where they are euthanized for being violent.


i just saw my dog greets me with hello i love you! i never knew that!

i dont know a lot about training and have put my faith in his methods, this surprises me, but i do not have enough knowledge of other methods to know who is right and who is wrong.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Considering that you just learned how your dog is greeting you, perhaps you should examine the methods proposed by people like Ian Dunbar, Emily Larlham (kikopup), Jean Donaldson and many others. If you put your faith in CM, you are creating an unnecessarily antagonistic relationship with your dog, in which every moment is filled with making sure your dog doesn't dominate you in any way. That's a sad way to live, especially considering that dogs aren't that sort of pack animal, they don't consider humans to be dogs and there are other, far more enjoyable, ways to interact with your dog.


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## londontami (May 27, 2014)

Amaryllis said:


> Considering that you just learned how your dog is greeting you, perhaps you should examine the methods proposed by people like Ian Dunbar, Emily Larlham (kikopup), Jean Donaldson and many others. If you put your faith in CM, you are creating an unnecessarily antagonistic relationship with your dog, in which every moment is filled with making sure your dog doesn't dominate you in any way. That's a sad way to live, especially considering that dogs aren't that sort of pack animal, they don't consider humans to be dogs and there are other, far more enjoyable, ways to interact with your dog.


oh, i am not doing really anything the 'cesar' way, we are just doing basic clicker training on our own. i was just curious. i thought cesar milan was the be all end all in dog trainers. i let my dog be a dog first and foremost.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

londontami said:


> oh, i am not doing really anything the 'cesar' way, we are just doing basic clicker training on our own. i was just curious. i thought *cesar milan was the be all end all in dog trainers*. i let my dog be a dog first and foremost.


He's not even close.  Fortunately, there are tons of fabulous trainers with good information available to anyone interested. In addition to the folks Amaryllis mentioned, I'd add Sophia Yin, Patricia McConnell, Paul Owens, and Karen Pryor. Check out the stickied threads at the top of this section of the forum, especially the "recommended reading" and "useful training links."


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

londontami I am glad you found this Forum!
You will find much better ideas for training -- for ex I love Kikopups free Utube videos (their ones on motivation are really good and its pretty different from Cesar's way, I kinda feel bad for him cause he does seem to love dogs...).... heres a link (if you dont already have it):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c77--cCHPyU&feature=kp

http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

londontami said:


> i dont know a lot about training and have put my faith in his methods, this surprises me, but i do not have enough knowledge of other methods to know who is right and who is wrong.


That is part of the problem (for me at least) when it comes to Caesar. He is on TV, and a lot of people who do not have the knowledge of other methods tend to assume "hey he is on TV, he must be ok, and must be really good if he got his own show" Not necessarily the cast. IMO, he has some points that are worth keeping in mind (exercise is important, your dog is important and needs training), but before putting faith in any methods, check out others and get enough knowledge to make an informed decision on that. I will say though, despite not having trained millions of dogs, or having read every bit of literature, I'd say a safe bet to stat with are the ones Amaryllis mentions, especially Kikopup, she has her quirks that I don't agree with, but her methods are absolutely not harmful, and are an absolutely excellent foundation to build upon. She is on Youtube and has TONS of stuff (though I find her voice annoying, if you don't, you have it made....if you do, try to suffer through as much as you can, it is worth it).


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't think that all of us on this Forum always agree on methods. But I do believe that ALL of us would back off if a dog growled at us ( as opposed to trying to make Him back off). And, I don't think that any of us would intentionally use a method that would make a dog try to bite. 

There are videos of Cesar purposely invading a dog's space to make it growl, and try to bite...


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

When I got Jackson, I loved Cesar. Thankfully he was not the kind of dog that 'needed' Cesar's methods so I never used them, BUT I thought Cesar was the BEST. Wow how times have changed. I am so glad I opened my eyes and realized how dangerous he really can be.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> When I got Jackson, I loved Cesar. Thankfully he was not the kind of dog that 'needed' Cesar's methods so I never used them, BUT I thought Cesar was the BEST. Wow how times have changed. I am so glad I opened my eyes and realized how dangerous he really can be.


I watched seasons at a time of his show when I first got Eko, I first went to the GSD forum after his techniques totally backfired on me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh man you guys, I wrote this long thing for a TV forum I work at and I never posted it here! Rectifying that now:

Personally, I'm not a fan of Cesar Millan in general, although I think that he makes some good points. He's right that most "bad" dogs are under-exercised. He's also right that dogs need a confident leader. I believe that he truly loves dogs, and I admire the work he's done to erase some of the stigma on breeds like the pit bull. However, most of his training techniques are rooted in old, now-disproved pack theory, which I hate seeing spread like gospel.

Very basically: Pack theory comes from some 1940s studies done on a group of captive, unrelated wolves. These wolves, when thrown together in captivity, fought over all resources. The researchers decided that they were fighting to become the "alpha." However, those researchers and others have since learned that real wolf packs are family groups, with the parents as the natural "alphas," and that they engage in very little competition over resources. The younger wolves do not fight to usurp their parents, and behaviors like "alpha rolls" are voluntary (a wolf will roll on its back to show it's no threat). However, most of this is moot anyway, as our domestic dogs are now pretty far-removed from their wild ancestors -- lately experts like Jean Donaldson have even been disputing the idea that dogs are pack animals at all (feral dogs tend to buddy up or form loose packs when it's advantageous, but are mostly solitary scavengers).

Here are some of my favorite resources on the subject:

The Dominance Controversy (by Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS)
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory (by Pat Miller, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, CDBC)
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog (by Dr. Ian Dunbar, veterinary behaviorist)
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals (with citations)
Leader of the Pack (roundup of various other articles)
Wolf expert L. David Mech's site (he wrote one of the seminal books on wolf behavior, which he has since begged the publisher to stop publishing as it's so outdated)

For anyone who's interested in getting (much) more in-depth, some blog posts from Patricia McConnell, PhD, a renowned applied animal behaviorist:

The Concept Formerly Described as "Dominance"
The “D word” and Social Relationships in Dogs
Dogs & “Dominance” –What’s a Person to Do?
Dog Training and the “D” Word

Some criticism of Cesar Millan himself (I like these links because they aren't invective-filled rants; they acknowledge his good points while explaining the issues with some of his techniques):

What Do I Think About The Dog Whisperer?
Food Aggression and a Famous Trainer (in response to this video)
One Person's Experience With the Dog Whisperer (stories like this are rare, as show participants must sign a NDA)
Pack of Lies (New York Times article)

And a bit of information on thresholds and learned helplessness (what Cesar calls "calm submissive"), as mentioned in some of those other articles:

Across a Threshold
Shut Down Dogs (with some great photo examples)

Finally, a video that demonstrates how Cesar's dog and human helpers rile up the dogs that appear on his shows to make for more exciting TV -- just as a reminder that this is, above all, reality television, and is subject to the same editing and behind-the-scenes machinations as any other "reality" show.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Oh man you guys, I wrote this long thing for a TV forum I work at and I never posted it here! Rectifying that now:
> 
> Personally, I'm not a fan of Cesar Millan in general, although I think that he makes some good points. He's right that most "bad" dogs are under-exercised. He's also right that dogs need a confident leader. I believe that he truly loves dogs, and I admire the work he's done to erase some of the stigma on breeds like the pit bull. However, most of his training techniques are rooted in old, now-disproved pack theory, which I hate seeing spread like gospel.
> 
> ...


I'm saving this to my computer, at the same time. 
Can I share this on a newfie facebook group that I'm on? It's starting to get a bit ridiculous over there.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Flaming said:


> I'm saving this to my computer, at the same time.


I just bookmarked it for future reference.


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## londontami (May 27, 2014)

omg this makes me sick.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

cookieface said:


> I just bookmarked it for future reference.


Me too!

I read somewhere that "evil" people are rarely evil intentionally. They usually have good intentions somewhere at heart, even if their methods are unsavory... and I think that's Ceasar's problem. He has (or had when he started) good intentions and I do think he genuinely cares about dogs, but the multi-million dollar brand that he's become is interfering with what he originally set out to do.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, share it anywhere, just attribute it to me so that no one thinks you're stealing from other sites. It's a fairly basic writeup (otherwise it would have been like five times as long, haha), but anyone who cares can follow all the links for lots more info. I believe that if you press the "reply with quote" button on my post, you can copy all of the formatting from there.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Yeah, share it anywhere, just attribute it to me so that no one thinks you're stealing from other sites. It's a fairly basic writeup (otherwise it would have been like five times as long, haha), but anyone who cares can follow all the links for lots more info. I believe that if you press the "reply with quote" button on my post, you can copy all of the formatting from there.


Will give all credot to you. No worries

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Brooklynsmom (Mar 19, 2014)

I feel like Cesar Millan's methods can work for (some) dogs that need rehabilitation. I really respect his intentions and his commitment. Before I got on this forum and really started researching training methods, I worked with a trainer that was Cesar based. He taught us to make our dog wait at the door and let humans go before us, to have her walk behind us on walks and if we let her on furniture she would think she was the alpha. I was so confused because Brooklyn was not happy. I was trying to be "dominate" and she just got frustrated and would lash out. As soon as we started using positive methods we started seeing a real change. It took a bit longer to sink in but she was more willing to learn and seemed happier. Now she enters the room before us and sleeps in our bed and has yet to dominate us. Mostly she just asks for belly rubs. 

I think if a dog is in a really bad place, Cesar's methods might be a good way to go. I'm a preschool teacher and I use a super positive approach with he kids- redirection, options, never saying no- saying what they can do- but it doesn't work for every kid. Dogs are the same.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Dogs who need rehabilitation are the last dogs that "need" Milan's methods. 

If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Pretty telling in the last part of the video when the one dog lunges at the other and Cesar steps back laughing...speaks volumes.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Brooklynsmom said:


> I feel like Cesar Millan's methods can work for (some) dogs that need rehabilitation. I really respect his intentions and his commitment. Before I got on this forum and really started researching training methods, I worked with a trainer that was Cesar based. He taught us to make our dog wait at the door and let humans go before us, to have her walk behind us on walks and if we let her on furniture she would think she was the alpha. I was so confused because Brooklyn was not happy. I was trying to be "dominate" and she just got frustrated and would lash out. As soon as we started using positive methods we started seeing a real change. It took a bit longer to sink in but she was more willing to learn and seemed happier. Now she enters the room before us and sleeps in our bed and has yet to dominate us. Mostly she just asks for belly rubs.
> 
> I think if a dog is in a really bad place, Cesar's methods might be a good way to go. I'm a preschool teacher and I use a super positive approach with he kids- redirection, options, never saying no- saying what they can do- but it doesn't work for every kid. Dogs are the same.


There is nothing wrong with making a dog wait to go in or out a door, if the door is an outside door it can be a safety issue and all of my dogs are trained to at the very least look to me and wait for an ok before proceeding out of the front door of our house. My youngest two are learning to "down/stay" at the front door because they are younger and more active and I fear they will bolt through the door. I have them wait at the back door as well, it isn't pleasant to have 5 dogs crowd around the door every time you open it, I like a bit of order. So the wait until I say ok. I am sure it is a matter of preference and it has nothing to do with dominance theory. The same with sitting on furniture, my large dogs are not allowed on the furniture because I have 5 dogs and not nearly enough furniture to accommodate everyone. Again, nothing to do with dominance this is just how my house runs. It certainly doesn't make my dogs feel like I am trying to dominate them, I don't think they really give it any thought at all past the learning phase. 

It isn't that all of Cesar's ideas or theories are wrong. As others have pointed out, some are correct or harmless. Dogs need exercise and many dogs have the issues they do because they don't get enough exercise or little to no training (need to exercise the mind and let a dog know what you expect of them). There is nothing wrong with having expectations and some of these things like, walking through doors after a person, waiting to be released to eat, not being on furniture and loose leash walking are not a problem. It is simply the "dominance theory" he applies to them that makes them wrong. Your dog isn't trying to dominate you through these things and won't get the idea it is the alpha because you allow it to do any of them. He also has a poor method of instructing them.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

This just came up in my FB newsfeed for ya'll that are interested. Basically CM's methods discussed by a blogger who has studied behavioral science: http://yodogcast.tumblr.com/post/55504306960/the-damage-of-the-dog-whisperer-a-scientific-critique


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Ha. We must know the same people, taquitos. I JUST saw that in my FB feed, too!  I found the article really interesting.


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