# Never ending food battle, DCM, etc?



## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

Picked up some Fromm today and literally a buddy of mine sends me a reply to the text telling me that Fromm is suspected in some of the DCM cases? 

Also, trying to avoid lentils/legumes/peas is tough since a lot of the higher meat foods like Orijen and Acana have those ingredients. We started feeding Acana a month ago and in the month she's done really well and added some muscle. My wife and oldest daughter also say her coat is softer, it was soft to begin with feeding TOTW. 

I'm now reading/being told that Acana is iffy, and Fromm is iffy, and Canidae is iffy, and a list of about 7 or 8 other foods. I've had Purina Pro Plan recommended to me, which I'm not 100% opposed to but the ingredient list is very blah. So many fillers, and crap that just adds no real value to the food. 

I'm planning to rotate and mix foods. My intent was to mix the Fromm with the Acana to get her some grains and less lentils/peas, etc since the DCM thing is still very much an unknown. While it doesn't appear to be exclusive to grain free it appears to be related to perceived higher end dog foods using ingredients that haven't historically been used in kibble. This appears to be hitting a wide swath of what I would consider higher quality foods based on ingredients. 

I know some folks say don't look at ingredients that it's a waste of time, but I don't buy into that simply because I look at ingredients for what I put in my body, why wouldn't I do the same for my dog? 

Any help, I'm feeling pretty confused at the moment despite pretty extensive reading.


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## NadiaK (Feb 8, 2017)

This whole thing is very scary. My mom's little malti/poo has been on Fromm from the time she was a puppy. I just got a new puppy myself and the breeder was feeding her Purina Pro Plan. I was going to transition her to a better grade food but now I am scared to do that. There is a Facebook group that is discussing all these issues with DCM. They even have tables of all sorts that you can look at showing which dogs were affected and which foods were being used etc. I only had a little time to skim through it as the new puppy is monopolizing my time. Here is the link if you are interested:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TaurineDCM/


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## Super_Nova (Dec 23, 2016)

Both of my dogs were on TOTW when the DCM report came out. I switched them to Victor Nutra Pro, which is grain inclusive, but 90% of the protein is from meat sources. I would consider it a meat based food vs a plant based food. Both of my dog have done very well on it. And you get more food per dollar, so I’m saving without feeling like I’m sacrificing quality


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm about to switch from Victor Ultra to Nutra due to the higher meat protein even though it's less overall protein.

SuperNova, how big are your Dutchies and how many cups or calories do they get a day? Brae's about 73# and getting 4.5 cups (over 2000 kcal) a day plus treats. He's all muscle and I'm just experimenting with food amounts to see how he fills out.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

https://www.dogforums.com/dog-food-forum/504130-s-not-just-grain.html

My thoughts about most FB groups are on that link... lol. I'm switching every 2-3 months here, but definitely not feeding anything with peas or lentils anymore.

About feeding amounts - my 16 month old newf was 85 lbs 6 weeks ago and he's absolutely not filling out on 2000 calories - he's still too skinny. I guess it makes me feel a bit better that a 73lb dog would need that much food too... I'm just not used to having to feed MORE than what the package says - my 42lb (spayed) mix gets fat on 600 calories, it's ridiculous!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Brae never had any problems filling out and was even a buff, hard-bodied puppy. He's just hovered at 73 for the last half a year or more. I'm seeing if he can put on more muscle, not that I don't have enough bruises  Here he is at around 1-1.5yrs:










But yeah, I never follow the package recommendations. My other dog was getting 2 cups or less in the last year of his life at 65#, but he was 11-12 yrs old so I am sure his metabolism and lack of activity contributed to that.

Bigger picture... I don't not-care about the DCM thing but if I think too much about it, it drives me crazy. I don't have a breed that's at risk, I generally am conscious about high quality food, I feed meat scraps and other table scraps, and I'll look out for the signs of DCM. Surely if my dog is anything less than crazy, I would be worried. That's the best I can do.


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## christine_72 (Jun 14, 2018)

I'm in Australia and don't really have any decent grain inclusive foods. Wellness and Artemis are the only ones i can think of, and both are American foods.

If Farmina was available here, I'd switch in a heartbeat. They have grain inclusive foods, but are meat based. I'd feed this one:

https://www.farmina.com/us/dog-food...ine/109-chicken-&-pomegranate-adult-mini.html


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## Super_Nova (Dec 23, 2016)

Canyx said:


> SuperNova, how big are your Dutchies and how many cups or calories do they get a day? Brae's about 73# and getting 4.5 cups (over 2000 kcal) a day plus treats. He's all muscle and I'm just experimenting with food amounts to see how he fills out.



Nova is 68 pounds, and she gets 3 cups a day (475 kcal/cup) , she has very good muscle definition. All work with her is done with tug instead of treats and she get a RMB after dinner. 
<p>
<p>
At Odin’s last weigh he was 50 pounds, he gets 4.5 cups a day. At this point he stands as tall as Nova, but has less muscle. He also gets a RMB after dinner.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

We do partial raw, but rotate kibble more or less every bag. This time we've swapped to a grain-inclusive for the first time - Labb (it's a Norwegian brand) - haven't started the changeover yet, but it'll be interesting to see. My only complaint is that it's poultry-based and imo Sam's skin does better on red meat, but I'm really happy with the level of animal protein and protein/fat levels. 

I do think/hope that rotating is protective against some of these issues, but until we have answers about the actual cause, that's mostly wishful thinking. Either way, it seems like a good time to find a grain-inclusive food that our dogs do well on, assuming they don't have an actual allergy or intolerance of course.


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

Super_Nova said:


> Both of my dogs were on TOTW when the DCM report came out. I switched them to Victor Nutra Pro, which is grain inclusive, but 90% of the protein is from meat sources. I would consider it a meat based food vs a plant based food. Both of my dog have done very well on it. And you get more food per dollar, so I’m saving without feeling like I’m sacrificing quality


Just found Victor on Chewy! Fair amount of grains but not lentils or peas. Might mix it with Orijen or Acana or something to keep meat content high. 

I assume this is the one? 
https://www.chewy.com/victor-select-nutra-pro-active-dog/dp/129281


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

OUGrad05 said:


> Just found Victor on Chewy! Fair amount of grains but not lentils or peas. Might mix it with Orijen or Acana or something to keep meat content high.
> 
> I assume this is the one?
> https://www.chewy.com/victor-select-nutra-pro-active-dog/dp/129281


I might try that one next!


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## Super_Nova (Dec 23, 2016)

OUGrad05 said:


> Super_Nova said:
> 
> 
> > Both of my dogs were on TOTW when the DCM report came out. I switched them to Victor Nutra Pro, which is grain inclusive, but 90% of the protein is from meat sources. I would consider it a meat based food vs a plant based food. Both of my dog have done very well on it. And you get more food per dollar, so I’m saving without feeling like I’m sacrificing quality
> ...




Yes, that is the food that I use, I get mine from Chewy as well! So convenient!


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

Super_Nova said:


> Yes, that is the food that I use, I get mine from Chewy as well! So convenient!


Check this out, do a search for "victor" and save yourself some time...some low taurine reports in there


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

OUGrad05 said:


> Check this out, do a search for "victor" and save yourself some time...some low taurine reports in there
> 
> https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/20...JZw6zKBr3vvo3lDrMpcW09zr40upGvusYu_0NryOXq7wH


I'm not sure how secure that link is because it asks me to log in on facebook... but I'm logged in on facebook...


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

Weird, it was working fine for me earlier and now it's not, I removed it just to be safe. Basically its the updated sample set/table posted in the DCM Facebook group. Shows dogs with taurine levels and their diets. Interesting stuff, while not conclusive, was a fairly signifiant dataset. More than I had expected with a broad sampling of different foods.


Francl27 said:


> I'm not sure how secure that link is because it asks me to log in on facebook... but I'm logged in on facebook...


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

OUGrad05 said:


> Weird, it was working fine for me earlier and now it's not, I removed it just to be safe. Basically its the updated sample set/table posted in the DCM Facebook group. Shows dogs with taurine levels and their diets. Interesting stuff, while not conclusive, was a fairly signifiant dataset. More than I had expected with a broad sampling of different foods.


Scary though because, for the last one I looked at, ALL the foods pretty much showed low taurine at some point.

Something else to keep in mind though is that we don't know how people store their food, if they leave it in a bag, or leave the bag open or dump it in a container or whatnot... which would cause nutrients loss.


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

Can you explain that? We keep our food in a Rubbermaid container and have for 12 years. Are you saying that's bad?


Francl27 said:


> Scary though because, for the last one I looked at, ALL the foods pretty much showed low taurine at some point.
> 
> Something else to keep in mind though is that we don't know how people store their food, if they leave it in a bag, or leave the bag open or dump it in a container or whatnot... which would cause nutrients loss.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

You're supposed to keep the food in the original bag, as it loses nutrients when it gets aired out or exposed to light (which happens when you transfer the food to another container)... which is super annoying because most bags don't have easy ways to be closed either. I have large upright containers and just put the bags in there, then lock it.


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

WTF, I store in a dark container but assumed it was repeated exposure to light that was a problem...


Francl27 said:


> You're supposed to keep the food in the original bag, as it loses nutrients when it gets aired out or exposed to light (which happens when you transfer the food to another container)... which is super annoying because most bags don't have easy ways to be closed either. I have large upright containers and just put the bags in there, then lock it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I've been rotating through 3 victor bags all of them peas in them, for years.. I called chewy beginning of this year to ask if victor changed it's formula for the sudden changes in my dogs. No one said anything about anything. and of course not getting valuable feed back except we are sorry that is happening, when changing the food I went right back into another food with not only peas but pea starch in it.. Not happy with that, and let them know it in returning the current food which they happy to take back. I did go with the victor green bag with the chocolate lab splashing in water because it adds taurine in the ingredients. Do feel victor pea ingredient is suspect not to use them. REally like the food I found at the feed store in a pinch Hi Point brand until the new food was to arrive.


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

Not all Victor foods have peas


PatriciafromCO said:


> I've been rotating through 3 victor bags all of them peas in them, for years.. I called chewy beginning of this year to ask if victor changed it's formula for the sudden changes in my dogs. No one said anything about anything. and of course not getting valuable feed back except we are sorry that is happening, when changing the food I went right back into another food with not only peas but pea starch in it.. Not happy with that, and let them know it in returning the current food which they happy to take back. I did go with the victor green bag with the chocolate lab splashing in water because it adds taurine in the ingredients. Do feel victor pea ingredient is suspect not to use them. REally like the food I found at the feed store in a pinch Hi Point brand until the new food was to arrive.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

OUGrad05 said:


> Not all Victor foods have peas


that wasn't what I meant about victor foods... the 3 different bags of Victor that (I) was rotating through all had peas. I re chose a victor without the peas


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

I'm curious which victor formulas had low taurine results? Honestly what I'd like to know is what the dogs that ACTUALLY have DCM are fed (specific formulas and all), and how they store their food. I have yet to find that information anywhere, all I see is low taurine problems (which obviously is a concern too, don't get me wrong, but that doesn't mean that the dogs will develop DCM).

But my main gripe is that the pet food companies are completely silent about this. I contacted Taste of the Wild and their answer was 'oh we're adding taurine to the food', as if it's going to make the problem go away (nobody knows). So I'm limiting the risks and rotating foods that have grain in it.


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## christine_72 (Jun 14, 2018)

OUGrad05 said:


> Can you explain that? We keep our food in a Rubbermaid container and have for 12 years. Are you saying that's bad?


I put the whole bag of food in an airtight tupperware container, then i transfer a weeks worth of food into another air tight container. The less you open the original bag, the better.


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

Hmm that's a good idea. I really prefer to buy in bulk to save $ but have heard you have to use dog food within 6 weeks of opening the bag due to repeated exposure to light and oxygen. I wonder if this would help stretch that.


christine_72 said:


> I put the whole bag of food in an airtight tupperware container, then i transfer a weeks worth of food into another air tight container. The less you open the original bag, the better.


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## christine_72 (Jun 14, 2018)

I buy the smallest bags available. A 3kg (6.6lb) lasts my dog just under 3mths. Just to make double sure, I put the container holding the bag in the fridge.

Save dollars, just to give you an example of the price differences between Australia and the US:

The smallest bag of Orijen original is $50 , the largest size is $180

Wellness Core 1.8kg (3.9lb) bag is $46

An Australian made super premium grain free food in my rotation is $47 for 3kg .

Just to give you an idea on how cheap your pet foods are over there.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Christine, can you guys get Ziwipeak for cheaper than we do?


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## christine_72 (Jun 14, 2018)

Canyx said:


> Christine, can you guys get Ziwipeak for cheaper than we do?


Nope, the price is the same as yours.


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## OUGrad05 (Nov 22, 2018)

I go through 30lbs a month 


christine_72 said:


> I buy the smallest bags available. A 3kg (6.6lb) lasts my dog just under 3mths. Just to make double sure, I put the container holding the bag in the fridge.
> 
> Save dollars, just to give you an example of the price differences between Australia and the US:
> 
> ...


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

The smallest bags last my dog anywhere from 2-3 months so I don't worry about the 6 week rule. I'm not throwing out a large portion of food every bag. Besides, I've kept cookies and cereal for myself for just as long and still ate them lol air tight works wonders


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## christine_72 (Jun 14, 2018)

OUGrad05 said:


> I go through 30lbs a month


Haha That's just mind boggling to me. I'd have to mortgage my house to feed that much over here! What do i go through per month?? A little over 2lbs eace: Little nugget does get a fair bit of fresh food mixed in to make his kibble last that long.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

lol.... about 100 lbs a month


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

Is that stuff so expensive in Australia because it's imported or something? Although I remember it being pretty expensive in Europe too.

I think I'm around 60 lbs a month here between my three... half of it for the newfie.


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## christine_72 (Jun 14, 2018)

Francl27 said:


> Is that stuff so expensive in Australia because it's imported or something? Although I remember it being pretty expensive in Europe too.
> 
> I think I'm around 60 lbs a month here between my three... half of it for the newfie.


Thats part of it, but everything is expensive here! I pay roughly the same or slightly, slightly cheaper for a comparable Australian made food.


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