# dog traning - how far should it go?



## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I am getting a little puppy Husky mix from a rescue center and as I only had street dogs or already trained dogs a long time ago, I am reading and reading on how to treat them and train them.

Either because I have been reading over and over all on the training subjects, or because I do not know what to do myself, I find it too restricting to train dogs after a point. 

If the dog is for search and rescue, or for helping the blinds, I understand all this training but just for a dog at home, I find this too much:

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How to walk a dog:

Pick up your lead/leash. This signals to the dog that it is about to go for a walk. Make a dog sit patiently as you clip on the lead. Use a treat to lure the dog to sit if you have to. Make sure you only clip on the lead when the dog is sitting still, going for a walk is on your terms, not theirs. .....

Walk him over to the door, ready for the walk.

Make the dog sit. Tell them "wait". Make sure the dog waits inside as you step outside, and then say, "Ok come on!" and ....

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Now, am I training a dog or are these instructions for a robot?

Would you like to have a kid to whom you say "lets go for icecream" and you expect the kid, wait for you to go to the door, sit while u r getting ready, and allow you to open the door and walk after you and so on?

Isnt this at the point of cruelty? Is this dog ever to feel the way it wants to feel? 

I would expect the dog to jump up and down, and lick your hands, and get real excited and run to the door and so on. The dog is not stupid, it knows you have a leash and you will walk it. Why are all these robotic instructions?

Am I being realistic here or am I not good at being the alfa dog?

Do you all train your dogs like this?

Please tell me what you think?

Thanks


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

I think the point of the training is that you establish control so that you won't have to deal with behavior problems and therefore possibly dire consequences later. For example, if you don't teach your dog to wait at the door before a walk, it would probably do the "door dash" and it could escape and get hit by a car. This particular command is one I love and am working on very hard because I have never mastered door dashing before except by body blocking/bribery and other unconstructive measures.

I know what you mean though, it seems very tedious at first, but some of the processes make a lot of sense for the long haul in terms of setting acceptable boundaries for your dog to understand. I don't know what else you're reading that seems too robotic; maybe some of them are over the top. Sometimes I get tired of the rigidity of training and just want to forget the all the discipline it requires. But I think it's better to invest now in training to have a successful relationship going forward. You'll reap the benefits later.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Dogs and kids are very different. You wouldn't have your kid sit at the door and wait, but I assume you would have them say please and thank you for things. 

Dogs are animals and understand things differently. For them, it's a sign of leadership to go through the door first. So having them wait until you go through first makes sense. Most training is about opening the lines of communication and letting the dog know what you expect of them.

Edited to add a quote that I heard once and think is good- "If you treat your dog like a man, then he'll treat you like a dog".


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I dont agree. I think they are smart enough to know you are their owner since u feed them, u cuddle them, u get upset and be happy when they do stuff. I think this idea of letting the dog know u r the boss is more from the aggression of human beings toward other beings. Not because the dog has to learn anything like that. I most certainly think any dog is aware that the human is the boss even if they treat them like babies. They come to your house, they r left alone, they eat when u give them only, it doesn't need a long training to understand who has the upper hand.

I had small dogs and one big dog for a while and I never trained them for anything but I didnt have them since they were puppies. I took care of dogs I found on the street. I always lived alone and I think perhaps thats why, the dogs always started acting like me cause they watched and learned. 

For example, they only ate what I ate and only when I ate. They never asked for food at other times. They went poo when I went to the bathroom. That was the most interesting part for me. I realized it after a while and saw that the dog was like taking after me since I was the only one she lived with. The big dog was like that too (I had each one at different years). He would only get excited to go out when I did. We used to run under the rain and he loved that. So the the female one actually.
They used to always sit when I sat and slept when I slept and woke up when I woke up. And they were very happy dogs. People used to see them and tell me "waw what a happy dog you have" their faces were like smiling all the time.

Many times the dog was upset or shocked if I did something they couldn't do such as dancing to music lol.

I used to also talk to them like they were babies. I was very vocal and so were they. I do the same with my cat now and yes he is taking after me too. 
every time I talk he responds back. But I have no clue what he is saying lol. And if I eat anything different and I show him he looks at me like he is shocked. And sometimes I give a little piece to make him feel not alone, he runs to it, smells it, doesnt like it but still tries to at least take a piece or lick it. And if he cant, he gets upsets and lies down somewhere until I finish eating.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

lovedwarrior said:


> I dont agree. I think they smart enough to know you are their owner since u feed them, u cuddle them, u get upset and be happy when they do stuff. I think this idea of letting the dog know u r the boss is more from the aggression of human beings toward other beings.


Not true at all! It sounds like you have zero experience with dominant dogs and little understanding of pack behavior. I think you've probably been lucky before with submissive dogs.

Also, it has nothing to do with "aggression" from human beings.  How terrible is it to give a dog rules and show them what you expect? How is it aggression to ask a dog to sit and stay before going through a doorway?


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I dont think pack behaviour is as simple as humans think. I think there is a lot more in the leadership and obedience there than one human even can understand. 

I do not think that the leader of the pack always acts like the boss. I think in a pack everyone does their part and the leader also needs the help of the followers in that pack. That's why they are on a pack to begin with. They can not survive on their own and that's because they can not satisfy all their needs by themselves. Have u ever seen an alpha wolf attacking a puppy in the wild because the puppy wondered far, or if the puppy didn't follow him/her? Does the alpha go and aggressively fetch the puppy? or does it go after it and make it follow him/her?

I think humans misinterpret almost everything about animals. 

The aggression comes from not even sometimes listening to the dog but always making it listen to you. This is not obedience training, this is oppression.

Here is an article I just found. It completely proves my point. I am so happy I knew this without being an animal behaviorist.

I hope it helps everyone who thinks they need to be the "alpha":

from here: http://lovemydogtraining.com/html/should_i_emulate_the_alpha_wol.html


*Ask The Trainer*



*Should I Emulate the Alpha Wolf * [Print This Article]

Published in the June 2009 Colorado Greyhound Adoption Newsletter.

Question:

I’ve heard that, as descendants of wolves, dogs are pack animals, and I should treat my dog as an alpha wolf would treat a pack member. Is that true?

The Trainer Answers:

That’s a great question! Let’s break this down into two pieces: (1) are dogs pack animals; and, (2) should you try to emulate a wolf? In our last article, we discussed part one and determined that, although dogs are descended from wolves, they might not be the “pack” animals we once thought. Here we will address the second part of the question.

Dogs are not wolves, but as descendants of wolves, they do share some common traits with the wolves of today. One thing dogs do seem to have in common with today’s wolves is the way they communicate. Their body language is very similar, so understanding the way that dogs and wolves communicate with their own species can help us learn how to better communicate with our dogs.

Emulating a wolf – or another dog – can be useful to some degree. Dogs communicate primarily through body language. They also communicate through vocalization, but a lot of communication between dogs or wolves is missed by us, because it can be very easy to miss if you don’t know what to watch for. If we understand better how they communicate and read each other, it can help us tremendously in understanding and communicating with them. We expect our dogs to understand English, but we often do not make the effort to understand their language. However, emulating a wolf can be taken too far, in my opinion. While understanding and using some of their body language can be helpful, I am willing to bet that dogs know we are not really another dog.

Should we take this a step further and try to act like the “alpha” wolf? In order to answer this question, we first need to understand what the “alpha” wolf really does and how they act. There is a lot of information today that is simply untrue, so if we are going to emulate wolf behavior, we need to understand what it is and what it is not. The “alpha” term is outdated, as anyone who studies and understands wolf behavior can tell you. The “alpha” really is the parent wolf. In many regards, it’s very much like human parents with their children. Rather than thinking in terms of “alpha” begin to think in terms of a parent. What would a parent do?

Do parents always eat first, walk out the door first, etc.? I don’t think so. What they do, however, is control access to valuable resources. Do parents sit down and eat dinner, and kids only get to eat after the parents are finished? No, but the parent will determine when and what the children get to eat. The parent wolf does have priority access to food, especially when it’s scarce. However, if food is plentiful, children may be allowed to eat alongside their parents. Do parents always go out the front door first? No, but they also do not allow their children to run out the door whenever they feel like it either. Do parents always walk ahead of their children? No, but they generally expect their children to stay within a close distance and respond or return when asked. 

So, should we emulate wolves? Yes, if it means understanding and to some degree using body language that our dogs will understand. Yes, if it means acting like a responsible parent and controlling access to resources that are valuable to your dog. Help your dog to understand that you will provide and care for him/her. Help your dog to learn to check in and respond to you in order to earn those things. Using harsh physical or bullying tactics with your dog is not what a good parent – wolf or human – would do, so don’t use those methods in the name of emulating a wolf. A good “alpha’ wolf or parent wolf will not use these tactics any more than a good human parent would.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

I don't think luvntzus was talking about wolf pack-type leadership but was just talking about teaching your dog manners. Some dogs do require very strict, no-nonsense leadership that doesn't give an inch on anything. But, this is not true of your average pet. That said, if you are unwilling or unable to train for at least basic manners and respect, then please do all dogs a favor and stick to very submissive dogs, preferably Toy breeds that you can pick up easily when they mis-behave. And stay far far far away from any dogs of any breed or size that are not at or near the bottom of their litter packs or are not very submissive. any other choice if you are unwilling to put the time in training will most likely turn into a disaster down the line and it's the dog that will pay for your unwilliness.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I dont think you understand my point. I am saying that dogs do not need a firm training to learn anything. 

Please read about so called "dominant dogs" in behavior journals. There is not such trait as "dominance" in dogs what you see is aggression from the dog and the fault of this aggression is the human for captivating the dog for more than it can handle. 

I suggest you read on scientific info on dog behaviors rather than just training manuals. Dogs r not robots for anyone necessitating to read manuals on them. 

About me doing a favor to all dogs if i do not teach them manners is a very unthoughtful remark. If you read about what I wrote about the dogs that I had, I am sure I did a great job training them. 

Two of the dogs I had never even needed a leash to walk with me even when crossing the street. One of the big dogs once attacked me (just the second day it came into my house, he wanted to spray on the wall corner) and I pulled him from the wall but he started barking at me like a wild dog and in fact jump on my face and I remember his front teeth touching the tip of my nose. He was obviously warning me about treating him unkindly. I guess this is what u call dominant. What I did was, I talked to him kindly, diverted his attention to somewhere else and stopped his barking immediately by calling his name several times in a very affection way. I was trying to remind him of himself. The dog calmed down and starting playing with me. Next I showed him his pee on the wall and said things like "no no no, bad bad bad" he kept watching me and trying to understand what I was saying. then I took him out on a leash immediately after that. I did the cleaning later. And guess what, I probably had to do this 2ce and never again. The dog always wanted to go out if he wanted to spray. 

I taught my dogs and cats their name in one day while they lie on my thigh and I pet them and I call their name in every sentence I make while I talk to them or make up songs and sing to them. It never failed. I never had a treat for any behaviour. I didnt even hear about treats until a few years ago. 


I think most humans are selfish and aggressive themselves and when the dog shows any aggressiveness they call it dominance which is against their own ego. Then the dog takes it all. 

I think people who think dominant dogs need firm training are the people who should do a favor to all dogs by never having a dog. 




Please read this:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=87b07a29845364ffba90cf48443c553b

Abstract

Prior to seeking the counsel of a veterinary behaviorist many dog owners have attempted behavior modification techniques suggested by a variety of sources. Recommendations often include aversive training techniques which may provoke fearful or defensively aggressive behavior. The purpose of this study was to assess the behavioral effects and safety risks of techniques used historically by owners of dogs with behavior problems.

A 30-item survey of previous interventions was included in a behavioral questionnaire distributed to all dog owners making appointments at a referral behavior service over a 1-year period. For each intervention applied, owners were asked to indicate whether there was a positive, negative, or lack of effect on the dog's behavior, and whether aggressive behavior was seen in association with the method used. Owners were also asked to indicate the source of each recommendation. One-hundred-and-forty surveys were completed. The most frequently listed recommendation sources were *“self” and “trainers”*. Several confrontational methods such as “hit or kick dog for undesirable behavior” (43%), “growl at dog” (41%), “physically force the release of an item from a dog's mouth” (39%), *“alpha roll”* (31%), “stare at or stare [dog] down” (30%), *“dominance down”* (29%), and “grab dog by jowls and shake” (26%) *elicited an aggressive response* from at least a quarter of the dogs on which they were attempted. Dogs presenting for aggression to familiar people were more likely to respond aggressively to the confrontational techniques *“alpha roll” and yelling “no”* compared to dogs with other presenting complaints (P < 0.001). In conclusion, confrontational methods applied by dog owners before their pets were presented for a behavior consultation were associated with aggressive responses in many cases. It is thus important for primary care veterinarians to advise owners about risks associated with such training methods and provide guidance and resources for safe management of behavior problems.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

*dog traning - how far should it go?*

I thought this was a serious question, I'll just say you train the dog until you're happy with dog and your lives together. Train the dog any way you want to as it's your business how dog is trained.

I actually see it isn't a question at all, it's just another get on soap-box and explain how dogs should be trained thread. Everybody have fun.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I learned a lot since I asked this question a few hours ago. Thats what a question should do in my opinion. Would u rather I read the answers and do as everyone else says?


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

wvasko said:


> *dog traning - how far should it go?*
> 
> I thought this was a serious question, I'll just say you train the dog until you're happy with dog and your lives together. Train the dog any way you want to as it's your business how dog is trained.
> 
> I actually see it isn't a question at all, it's just another get on soap-box and explain how dogs should be trained thread. Everybody have fun.


Agreed, and by someone who, from his/her own admission has never trained a dog. I just hope for any future dog's sake, assuming this is not a troll, that s/he never owns a hard-tempered, prey driven, yes, dominant personality dog.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I did train dogs and they all behaved way better than humans.

I am so disappointed in you guys!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I told you to train the dog as you see fit, is that a problem. I am sorry you're disappointed. If you are indeed learning things, this will shape your methods of training. Good or bad they will still be your methods as nobody on DF can make you switch training programs. These choices are your decisions.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

If you've never seen the reason to train a dog, one of 3 main possibilities is likely true.

1) You are a "natural" dog trainer who gets a lot from a dog, without even realizing how you are doing it.

2) You always lucked out by selecting dogs who are extremely biddable and "willing to please".

3) You are one of "those people" who have pets that are obnoxious, unruly nuisances, but who thinks their dogs can do no wrong. 

I've known people who fall into category #1, and I am in awe of them. I also wonder what they could get a dog to do if they used a systematic approach.

The first dog I remember as a kid was a category #2 dog. She was (literally) dragged home by my sister as a flea-bitten bag o' bones. No thanks to anything my family ever did, she achieved legendary status in my neighborhood. She was just one of those dogs who seemed to know what you were thinking, before you thought it. Or she could convince you that it was your idea in the first place (highly possible). There aren't nearly enough of those dogs to go around, and you have to make allowances for dogs who NEVER want to do what you want them to. Some category #1 people seem to get "lucky" over and over, but that is due to their superior intuition about dogs.

If you fall into category #3, you will never know it...but your neighbors do.

If you've never trained a dog, you are missing out on something great. It improves your relationship in ways you can't even fathom. Try it sometime. If you don't like the result, stop using the training. The dog will go back to the way he was in a very short time.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

lovedwarrior said:


> I am getting a little puppy Husky mix from a rescue center and as I only had street dogs or already trained dogs a long time ago, I am reading and reading on how to treat them and train them.
> 
> Either because I have been reading over and over all on the training subjects, or because I do not know what to do myself, I find it too restricting to train dogs after a point.
> 
> ...


You train to a point where you are comfortable with their behavior.

We are currently working on this exact training issue at my house.

Before we started teaching them manners, they would get so excited when I mentioned outside that they would be leaping all over each other and jumping at my face. When I got one leashed, after wrestling to get them to stay still, they would run all over the other until the leash was all tangled around. One time Kira even fell down a couple stairs because Odo knocked her down in his excitement. I would open the door and they'd burst through and off the outside step, nearly strangling themselves at the end of the leash. I've dropped their leashes before, and ended up having to collect them from the neighbors yard. I've had them step on each other and trip me causing me to fall and injure myself.

Now, I go to the door, ask them to sit, put their leashes on, and ask them to wait while I open the door. Then I tell them "ok!" and let them come out to the step where I ask them to wait until I shut the door. They're still excited, but their manners allow me to get them leashed up and outside faster and calmer for everyone. They also learn a lesson in patience and self control.

Since you used the kid comparison. Would you like to have a kid to whom you say "let's go for icecream" and they jump up and down in your face yelling "icecream! icecream! icecream!", run circles around you the whole way to the door, occasionally tugging at the keys in your hand yelling "let's go!! Hurry!", tripping you with their enthusiasm, then the moment you open the door they bust out and run down the street at full speed yelling "let's go get some icecream!!"?

If your dog naturally just excitedly runs to the door or just licks your hand and you're comfortable with that behavior, then don't train otherwise. No one's forcing you to engage in any training whatsoever. Most people use these training methods to alter behavior they are not happy with. The methods work, and they feel less "robotic" and unnatural the more you use them. It's just second nature for me at this point to stand there leash in hand and wait for the pups to sit.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

More central to the original post: if you already know the answer, why ask the question?


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I always think the dog will evetually do what I expect him to do. It usually happens in the second week we are together or if it is very friendly in about 2-3 days.

I think why the dogs and I get along pretty well is that I live alone and when I have them we are two together only. So we observe and learn each other pretty fast. There are no other people around to take the dogs attention or confuse it with another behavior for the same thing. I think this is the only reason. My golden retriever was a very wild dog, he jumped on my face the 2nd day I had him as I wrote before. But while he was barking and jumping to my face, the only thing I could think of was ignoring him. He got even more wild thats when I kept calling his name affectionately several times to remind him of himself. I thought it triggered something in him when I pulled him from the wall he was spraying so I was trying to show him that I wasnt that same person. 

If the dog is very aggressive, I think the best thing to do is to be with the dog alone in a room or in an empty boring garden (if it bites and stuff better have the mouth covered) where you are the only 2 creatures and he will eventually calm down and come near you or lie down and will come when you call it. That's the end of its dominating u. There is no firmness there. Just sitting silently and not talking or making any contact except with eyes. Until he gives up the loneliness and comes to you. 

I never had to use force with any cats or dogs I had. If they did something real aggressive I ignored them or let them know it doest affect me. 

I feel its very unnecessary to use force (even pulling the collar hard) if it goes far, the leash will pull eventually and it will see it as not a great idea to wander far. 

Of course I always use my tone of voice in different pitches while I talk to them. They are very sensitive to sound and body movements. I once taught my little dog to bark at the door when someone knocks on the door by making dog sounds like I was about to bark. It work right the first time, she looked at me while I was looking directly at the door and lol barking lightly and she jumped to bark way louder and ran to the door to sniff. Then it was hard to make her stop every time the door was knocked. 

I don't like dogs that do not protect or just lie there or just look cute. 

I would like to think I am natural but I think everyone is. You just need to know the dog will do eventually what you want cause the dog knows the food comes from you and every other thing as well. 

I never saw my dogs were trying to please me. I don't even know how this behavior might be. But they were always happy especially when I was around and even if we just lied down silently. I was in another country (now in Canada) where there were tons of stray dogs everywhere. I always left my dog open in case the dog wanted to leave. But they never ever left, and if they did they always came back a few hours later. I always thought we will get along best I treat them as they are conscious beings. 

They used to make me laugh all the time with how they answered me when I talked to them. They are hilarious animals. Cats are even more funny cause they r very classy and they know every movement you make and what it means. 

I think with aggressive dogs, you need to be very smart and when they show you a sign you need to act like you understood something else. Say, the dog barks a lot and wants ur attention. Turn on the music. The dog gets confused why you did that and just sits and watches you to understand you so it would do some other trick. I don't think there should be any confrontation because then you are an enemy or an obstacle to them. What you want to do is get them do what you want. 

Sometimes when my dog barked real loud I would speak to him by whispering. They come close to hear you and wonder why you became so silent all of a sudden. The bark stops meanwhile. And I cant stop petting them and playing with them.



Marsh Muppet said:


> More central to the original post: if you already know the answer, why ask the question?



cause I thought people had great ideas!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

You left your door open so the dogs could leave if they wanted to ?....It didn't bother you to think they might be hit by a car or taken to the pound? ...or any number of nasty things that can happen when an animal is running lose in the streets?


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> You train to a point where you are comfortable with their behavior.
> 
> We are currently working on this exact training issue at my house.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your explanation. It does makes sense now since you explained in detail. I can see how useful that is when you have more than one dog that is jumping to ur face. Certainly jumping to your face is not a desirable attitude and one wonder why jump to the face? I would like to know what jumping to the face in happiness means to the dog really. Very interesting behavior. I had one dog jumped to my face and it was not a happy moment at all. He was quite aggressive and even touched the tip of my nose with his front teeth. lol I remember it quite well cause I didnt know what to do at all. But it was or second day together.

I think animals behave very logically in their mind and it is up to us to understand what the logic is. I love solving their puzzles.



pugmom said:


> You left your door open so the dogs could leave is they wanted to ?....It didn't bother you to think they might be hit by a car or taken to the pound? ...or any number of nasty things that can happen when an animal is running lose in the streets?


yes it would scare me. I will definitely not leave my dog without a leash and an open door just by itself the first few days. But if the dog is with you for so long and you open the door without a leash on, I doubt it will run and wonder the streets alone. The dog is happy it is going out with you. It is not just the walk that excites him, it is also spending happy time being with you. 

But I think always having the leash on makes the dog think when there is no leash there is freedom to run far. I would not like my dog to think that way to avoid accidents. That is why I would not always have the leash on but I am very conscious of what I am doing and watching the dogs behavior to see if he is about to run (like he looks at you and looks at the street, and he is not looking at you to see if you are ready to go but looking at you to see how far he is from you so he can run away from you). If the dog is looking at me like he is about to run then I grab him fast or if he is far, I usually call him for food. (I do it with my cats too, I say "yummy yummy" meaning 'come let me give you food' they almost always come back or stare at you while they can see if there is a car coming or not. 

I also think if your dog acts free from your desire, the dog is not attached to you well. It does not mean it is not trained well.
If my dog wandered on its own and did not come back when I call it, I would really be upset seeing that my dog is similar to any other dog that I don't own and it doesn't care about me at all.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Basic manners are always a good idea. Jumping, mouthing, barking in excess etc. can be frightening to small children and the elderly. I work for a vet and believe me we appreciate a dog with good manners. It allows the vet to examine the dog more thoroughly and makes any treatment plan much easier for the owner at home. I especially hate dogs that come in that are unruly and try to bite you while the owner coos "It's ok." It's not ok your dog is being rude and you are telling the dog it is ok? I can understand if the procedure is painful but beyond that no. Have had dogs come at us just walking into the exam room.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have a dog that is very well trained and we are entering the field of competition obedience. I am a structured person and so my training is structured and my dog does as asked. That is what I want. 

I never had a dog really learn How to Be trained by Observation. If that worked well, I could train one dog, put other dogs in kennels and have them watch me work the trained dog and they would all know the things to do from that. I would just do that for 2 weeks and collect money from the dog owners and smile all the way to the bank. 

I have repeatedly been told my dog 'is very happy acting." I think it is because she is a working breed and her "job" is obedience. I do make her wait to go out the door (safety) and I make her wait to leave her crate (discipline). She LIKES Wait because that cue is associated with 'more is coming! Just hang on a sec.!' 

She also Stays... and stay is not so much fun because it means stay until I return. Ho Hum.. but she does it with enthusiasm anyway. 

I love training this dog and she loves being trained. Just ask her about "Dog Skool!" and you will see her leap around etc. 

Honestly? I never saw training interfere with any dog having fun and playing up. I also have never had my own dog try to bite me in defense. 

I don't go with any of the stuff on dominance or leadership and wolf pack structure etc. ... "stuff" ppl all talk up. You can get so wrapped up in theory that you end up stumbling around wondering what you should, could or ought to do and the dog never gets trained at all. 

I just work at training the dog. If it is not working it is because I am not communicating what I want clearly and concisely. 

Train your dog any way you want to. Your dog. If you want advice on a specific thing, ask and there are ppl here more than happy to share their perspective. There are a bunch of very good books out there too both on training and dog behavior. If you want a list, ask.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

I completely agree about good manners, such as not biting guests and stop barking when told to do so or not coming on the couch when you dont want it to come near you. But what I do not like and think is is cruelty is making the dog into a robot doing excatly what you asked and no more. The dog also needs to be listened and understood. 

I am not against having dogs as guide dogs for the blind for example, but I am not at sure if it is a great idea the way it is done today. Only because I have never seen a guide dog that acts like a dog. I mean they look so much like robots. They r trained not to pay attention to anything but the road. They sit, stand, wait, move, sit, stand, move... where is the dog in this creature?

It would be great if the guide dogs were trained in a way that once they r on the job they act like that but once they r on their own and not working they can be themselves; play like puppies, go crazy running and and down in the garden, barking sometimes... That would be the fair thing to do.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

lovedwarrior said:


> I completely agree about good manners, such as not biting guests and stop barking when told to do so or not coming on the couch when you dont want it to come near you. But what I do not like and think is is cruelty is making the dog into a robot doing excatly what you asked and no more. The dog also needs to be listened and understood.
> 
> I am not against having dogs as guide dogs for the blind for example, but I am not at sure if it is a great idea the way it is done today. Only because I have never seen a guide dog that acts like a dog. I mean they look so much like robots. They r trained not to pay attention to anything but the road. They sit, stand, wait, move, sit, stand, move... where is the dog in this creature?
> 
> It would be great if the guide dogs were trained in a way that once they r on the job they act like that but once they r on their own and not working they can be themselves; play like puppies, go crazy running and and down in the garden, barking sometimes... That would be the fair thing to do.


I think a lot of guide dogs are that way..while they are "working" they are on task..but at home I'm sure they play....our S&R dogs were always very serious when tracking or searching..they had to listen and react to every command because it can be a very dangerous job......but at home they ran and fetched and tugged just like any other dog.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Kira jumps in people's faces to lick them, and she's spastic about it when she's excited. She likes licking your face so much that, even when she's not jumping, she licks the air when you bend down to pet her. She's butted me so hard in the face that I saw stars and she nipped my nose one time by accident. She scratches people's legs with her claws and scares kids (the people she loves the most). None of it is agressive. It's all excitement and just so much love for people and no knowledge of how to direct it in a people acceptable manner.

So she is being taught to keep four paws on the floor in order to get attention. It's been a slow process, but she's getting it. The excitement is still there. You can see it in the wiggle of her body and the frantic wagging of her tail. When she isn't jumping, she gets more positive attention, more petting, more snuggles, and the people in her life are overall happier with her.

As far as I understood guide dogs, they ARE free to be dogs when they're "off the clock". I've only interacted with one on a regular basis, and I was a kid, but when he was in the house without his vest/harness on, he was just the family pet. Granted, he was well behaved and well trained, but he was free to be a dog. In fact, I remember playing with him in the backyard.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

waw that's really great news to me. Every time I see a guard dog on the bus or in the metro, I always see them depressed looking. In fact, they look motionless or like they r staring into the air when they look at you. I thought they were always like that. I can not believe they change when they go home! I sometimes make faces to them when they look at me in the metro cause I feel like maybe they can feel something. They usually turn their face away or not even blink once. 

They tricked me alright!


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

lovedwarrior said:


> waw that's really great news to me. Every time I see a guard dog on the bus or in the metro, I always see them depressed looking. In fact, they look motionless or like they r staring into the air when they look at you. I thought they were always like that. I can not believe they change when they go home! I sometimes make faces to them when they look at me in the metro cause I feel like maybe they can feel something. They usually turn their face away or not even blink once.
> 
> They tricked me alright!


It's absolutely crucial that they do their job when they're working, as someone's life depends on it. They're trained not to interact with people like that, and honestly it's kind of rude to intentionally try to distract a guide dog. I think you may be projecting depression, though. I've always perceived them as working. I'm different when I'm at work than when I'm at home, aren't you? Let's say you had a critical job where people's lives depended on you. Air traffic controller, just to grab one out of the air. Would you be serious, focused, and ignore distraction while you were working? Would it be appropriate for someone to sit across the room from you and make silly faces at you, then label you as depressed when you didn't laugh/respond?


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> It's absolutely crucial that they do their job when they're working, as someone's life depends on it. They're trained not to interact with people like that, and honestly it's kind of rude to intentionally try to distract a guide dog. I think you may be projecting depression, though. I've always perceived them as working. I'm different when I'm at work than when I'm at home, aren't you? Let's say you had a critical job where people's lives depended on you. Air traffic controller, just to grab one out of the air. Would you be serious, focused, and ignore distraction while you were working? Would it be appropriate for someone to sit across the room from you and make silly faces at you, then label you as depressed when you didn't laugh/respond?


lol i dont make faces to them everywhere i see them. Sometimes when the owner sits near me in the metro the dog lies there like he is so unhappy.

Rude? How rude are you to tell me I am projecting some sickness of myself to a dog. I am simply a human and I dont see dogs as robots as most of the people seem to. To me a dog is a companion not a tool to do anything. 

I am wondering when people forgot animals had emotions.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

lovedwarrior said:


> I am not against having dogs as guide dogs for the blind for example, but I am not at sure if it is a great idea the way it is done today. Only because I have never seen a guide dog that acts like a dog. I mean they look so much like robots. They r trained not to pay attention to anything but the road. They sit, stand, wait, move, sit, stand, move... where is the dog in this creature?


The dog is working, and, just like you, cannot run wild while working. 



> It would be great if the guide dogs were trained in a way that once they r on the job they act like that but once they r on their own and not working they can be themselves; play like puppies, go crazy running and and down in the garden, barking sometimes... That would be the fair thing to do.


And how do you know they do not? 

Certainly my formal obedience dog does! 

She absolutely knows the difference between work time and play time and we take full advantage of both. She zooms in circuits around the house and down thru the yard and back. 

We also have fun hiking (Lots of State Forest land and other places) and for that she is off leash and yes, she recalls if hikers come along or if we see wildlife (but that has been trained). She has a reliable recall AND a reliable Down.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

I'm thinking the Husky-X might change your perception of "how far should it go".


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

Whats with attacking me every time I write?

Did I enter a pack which was formed before and I disturbed the old rules?


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## san4os (Oct 21, 2009)

Hello!!!
I have American Staffordshire Terriers at home!!!

I read books, watched TV ... but it was senselessly... I can't understood or my dog is stupid or I am bad teacher ???

and I took notice that my dog loves meat =)
so I started training my dog with a help of boiled sausage and raw meat...

and now I can understand I have a dog or a cat at home??? because my dog climbs up the tree like cat!!!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

harrise said:


> I'm thinking the Husky-X might change your perception of "how far should it go".


The same thought had crossed my mind.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

san4os said:


> Hello!!!
> I have American Staffordshire Terriers at home!!!
> 
> I read books, watched TV ... but it was senselessly... I can't understood or my dog is stupid or I am bad teacher ???
> ...


so what wrong things does your dog do? Why do you think it is stupid or you dont understand it?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

lovedwarrior said:


> I completely agree about good manners, such as not biting guests and stop barking when told to do so or not coming on the couch when you dont want it to come near you. But what I do not like and think is is cruelty is making the dog into a robot doing excatly what you asked and no more. The dog also needs to be listened and understood.
> 
> I am not against having dogs as guide dogs for the blind for example, but I am not at sure if it is a great idea the way it is done today. Only because I have never seen a guide dog that acts like a dog. I mean they look so much like robots. They r trained not to pay attention to anything but the road. They sit, stand, wait, move, sit, stand, move... where is the dog in this creature?
> 
> It would be great if the guide dogs were trained in a way that once they r on the job they act like that but once they r on their own and not working they can be themselves; play like puppies, go crazy running and and down in the garden, barking sometimes... That would be the fair thing to do.


Do you understand the concept of working dogs. Never mind just disregard the question as it was discussed before I posted this.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

lovedwarrior said:


> lol i dont make faces to them everywhere i see them. Sometimes when the owner sits near me in the metro the dog lies there like he is so unhappy.
> 
> Rude? How rude are you to tell me I am projecting some sickness of myself to a dog. I am simply a human and I dont see dogs as robots as most of the people seem to. To me a dog is a companion not a tool to do anything.
> 
> I am wondering when people forgot animals had emotions.


I'm sure you might think differently if you were a farmer or a rancher who needed their dog to help work there land or protect there livestock

You might also feel differently if your were blind and needed assistance to live a normal life? or if you or some one you love has been lost in the woods or trapped in a building brought down by an earthquake....you might then be glad someone took the time to train their dog to save your life 

I don't think anyone on this forum has forgotten that dogs have emotions...but IMO dogs were created to better our lives....and how they do that can be just by being our companion and giving us love or it could be doing a specific job that makes our lives easier


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Actively attemtping to distract a Guide dog interferes with their work. 

I recall an educational video when I was in GRADE SCHOOL warning against doing this AS A CHILD. Distracting a Guide Dog is illegal.

*A Service Dog is medical equipment trained to help its disabled handler. Such distractions may not only jeopardize the safety of the handler but it may also be against the law. Don’t worry, Service Dogs get lots of love, hugs and kisses, treats and attention by the handler, out of the public eye, and therefore does not need nor welcome your ministrations.

There are both civil codes written in to the Idaho State Constitution as well as criminal charges for intentionally interfering with an assistance dog team. There are several statements made in the Idaho code including 56-706, Title 18 Crimes and Punishments 18-5812, 18-5812A among others provide for either civil, criminal actions or both against the part of the person who is interfering with the team’s progress. Most of us just ask the offender to please not talk to, pet, whistle or whatever to our working dog. But many is the time when a polite "excuse me please do not touch or talk to my dog as you are distracting him", has failed to produce a reduction in the level of a person's penchant for being an annoyance. The penalty may include incarceration and up to a $500 fine.* (emphasis added by poster) http://www.highplainsservicedogs.org/id9.html

Additional information on Service dog laws can be found here:
http://www.servicedogssavelives.org/laws.html

Anthropomorphising your emotions on the dog is just as incorrect as assuming a dog has no emotions.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

pugmom said:


> ...but IMO dogs were created to better our lives....and how they do that can be just by being our companion and giving us love or it could be doing a specific job that makes our lives easier


right cause you know, women are also created for men to have their babies!

same logic!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

lovedwarrior said:


> right cause you know, women are also created for men to have their babies!
> 
> same logic!


NO not even close.....where do you think all the different breeds we have today came from?....


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

In addition, as a former Dairy Farmer who had a dog and a horse who helped me handle cattle I can tell you this.. my dog LOVED working. She wanted to work those cows more than anything else. Better than chasing a ball or playing with me. It was play to her to work those cows and she was a huge help to me. BETWEEN jobs she was waiting all the time for when we would get back to work.

She needed to be precise and she was.. she and the horse actually worked together and cued off each other and the cows cued off of them BOTH. Fascinating to be a part of. 

I agree with WVasko, you really do not understand anything at all about working dogs.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

lovedwarrior said:


> lol i dont make faces to them everywhere i see them. Sometimes when the owner sits near me in the metro the dog lies there like he is so unhappy.
> 
> Rude? How rude are you to tell me I am projecting some sickness of myself to a dog. I am simply a human and I dont see dogs as robots as most of the people seem to. To me a dog is a companion not a tool to do anything.
> 
> I am wondering when people forgot animals had emotions.


The dog lies there because that's what he's been trained to do when he's at work. It is indeed rude to attempt to distract a service animal when he is working, regardless of your opinion of the dog's current state of emotion. I don't know you well enough to say that you're depressed, but I can't help but think that perceiving a guide dog as depressed because he's lying/sitting still is a certain amount of projection. I don't think anyone here sees dogs as robots. Many, though, own working dogs. They aren't just companion animals. Some breeds are, genuinely, bred for pure companion. Many breeds, though, enjoy working and are bred to work. In fact, some are impossible to deal with if they DON'T have a job. Guide dogs are highly trained, but not just any dog can be trained as a guide dog. There are tons of dogs that enter the program and don't make it out the other side because they're not suited to the work or training. That tells me that guide dogs are suited for the work they're doing and not miserably depressed about it.


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## lovedwarrior (Oct 20, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> The dog lies there because that's what he's been trained to do when he's at work. It is indeed rude to attempt to distract a service animal when he is working, regardless of your opinion of the dog's current state of emotion. I don't know you well enough to say that you're depressed, but I can't help but think that perceiving a guide dog as depressed because he's lying/sitting still is a certain amount of projection. I don't think anyone here sees dogs as robots. Many, though, own working dogs. They aren't just companion animals. Some breeds are, genuinely, bred for pure companion. Many breeds, though, enjoy working and are bred to work. In fact, some are impossible to deal with if they DON'T have a job. Guide dogs are highly trained, but not just any dog can be trained as a guide dog. There are tons of dogs that enter the program and don't make it out the other side because they're not suited to the work or training. That tells me that guide dogs are suited for the work they're doing and not miserably depressed about it.


so when u see a service dog, you turn ur face away? Cause looking at it is also disturbing it. The dog comes into contact with ur eyes. 

So I did an illegal thing by moving my eye brows up and down or saying hi.

I see a lot of people touching it or talking to the blind person about the dog and petting it. 

You are just being bullies here.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Yup, I like turtles...


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

lovedwarrior said:


> so when u see a service dog, you turn ur face away? Cause looking at it is also disturbing it. The dog comes into contact with ur eyes.
> 
> So I did an illegal thing by moving my eye brows up and down or saying hi.
> 
> ...


Disagreeing with you is not bullying ...

The people you saw talking to the person and petting the dog probably asked permission first....if they didn't then yes they are being very rude

Making faces at at dog to get a reaction from it (like you said) would be disturbing it.....I don't think just looking at him/her is going to impede their job


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

harrise said:


> Yup, I like turtles...


Aren't turtles great?


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Here's the thing. If you start a thread and initiate a discussion, people are going to discuss. In order to make it clear who's being talked to or what they're saying is in response to, they are going to quote you. I'm not trying to attack you. I'm directing conversation at you, and the only way to do that in a forum is to quote you and then respond. I am disagreeing with you, and stating why. I'm not bullying. You are free to believe what you want to believe.

On the guide dog thing, though, the law is the law. If the owner of the guide dog complains about your distraction efforts, you could very well find yourself in some legal trouble.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Scotty, divert all power to Information Rejection Shields!

Aye Cap'n, but she canna take much more o' this. She's gonna blow!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Aren't turtles great?


We have a turtle bedspread we got on Maui and it is beautiful. Turtles goooooooddd.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

DANGER DANGER DANGER! Will Robinson, DANGER!!! 

Doctor Smith needs to be left behind on this planet!!!!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Bones, take the leash!

Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor...not a dog whisperer!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

This is the very last time I dialup this address on the Stargate now I'm lost and forgot address back to earth. What I gonna do, What I gonna do, What I gonna do, help me I'm stuck in a loop. What I gonna do.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Ahhh.. you are just.. (got to say it... ) *LOST*


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

And now for something completely different....


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

lovedwarrior said:


> I am getting a little puppy Husky mix from a rescue center and as I only had street dogs or already trained dogs a long time ago, I am reading and reading on how to treat them and train them.
> 
> Either because I have been reading over and over all on the training subjects, or because I do not know what to do myself, I find it too restricting to train dogs after a point.
> 
> ...


Ok lets start with a walk.. I grab the leash, my 70lb dog knocks the coffe table over wiggling around, jumps up and leaves claw marks all over me, etc. etc. 

Or dog knows if she wants the leash hooked up, put a lid on the excitement and sit still so I can attach and we can go walk without destroying anything and clawing me up in the process.

Training is not making your dog a robot. It is simply establishing a common language between you and your dog.

The larger vocabulary of language you teach your dog, the better and more full relationship you can have with your dog.

And it works two ways. You train the dog what human words mean, and you train it how to tell you what it wants.

Not training a dog is like having a kid and never teaching it how to speak or how to understand language. Why would you want anything less than the best communication possible with another being you will live with for life?



lovedwarrior said:


> I completely agree about good manners, such as not biting guests and stop barking when told to do so or not coming on the couch when you dont want it to come near you. But what I do not like and think is is cruelty is making the dog into a robot doing excatly what you asked and no more. The dog also needs to be listened and understood.
> 
> I am not against having dogs as guide dogs for the blind for example, but I am not at sure if it is a great idea the way it is done today. Only because I have never seen a guide dog that acts like a dog. I mean they look so much like robots. They r trained not to pay attention to anything but the road. They sit, stand, wait, move, sit, stand, move... where is the dog in this creature?
> 
> It would be great if the guide dogs were trained in a way that once they r on the job they act like that but once they r on their own and not working they can be themselves; play like puppies, go crazy running and and down in the garden, barking sometimes... That would be the fair thing to do.


The dog is there when the person gets home and the dog is not working.

The dog is responsible for this persons life and safety and the dog knows it and takes it seriously. They watch for anything that they need to. They are watching for things too low the owner might hit his head on, lights, signs, traffic, all kinds of things. A tough job for a dog.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

As the owner of a service animal I can tell you lovedwarrior that I would most certainly kick your butt through the proper legal authorities if you tried to interfere with the work of my dog.

There are people on this board that have seen Strauss at work and at home being a "normal dog". He is NOT the same dog.

When we are out in public and he has his vest on his ears are pinned back and he seems extremely lethargic and upset, but it is quite the opposite. He is listening for my cues and he is altering the speed of his gait to keep me from falling over.

He ignores people as we maneuver through stores, and those that work to distract him are (calmly) chastized for it. For example, I am much more patient with a small child that may try to run up and pet him than an adult that should certainly know better. I got rushed in Walmart just the other day by some guy.

He paid no attention to me, just came right up and tried to start petting my dog...and I scolded him for it rather harshly. I don't feel bad for it. My dog is WORKING, he is not there to play and pander to the crowd. And why would you run up on a strange dog in the first place!?

You don't want to learn anything, you just want to stir up controversy and whine that people are kicking sand in your face when they disagree with you.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Xeph said:


> There are people on this board that have seen Strauss at work and at home being a "normal dog". He is NOT the same dog.


I'll attest to this. Strauss is a MUCH different dog when working.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

lovedwarrior said:


> I think animals behave very logically in their mind and it is up to us to understand what the logic is. I love solving their puzzles.


The important part of this phrase = "in their mind." Who knows what's in a dog's mind?? Since I don't have the ability (and pleasure) of being able to visit that rare and precious place (i.e. my dog's mind), I'm gonna stick with boring old training. I do agree with you about loving to solve the puzzle that is my dog - trying to figure her out is endlessly fascinating to me.



> But if the dog is with you for so long and you open the door without a leash on, I doubt it will run and wonder the streets alone.


This is where you lost me (and maybe most of us). Expecting an untrained dog to somehow know not to go out an open door to freedom and fun and exciting stinky stuff to sniff? I'm a mildly interesting person, but I can't hold a candle to THE WORLD -- I'm just not that exciting, nor I suspect, are most other people. The dog would be seriously gone long before I had telepathically/naturally/magically communicated to her how cool it would be to ignore that open door and hang out with dear old mom. Ha! 



> If the dog is looking at me like he is about to run then I grab him fast or if he is far, I usually call him for food.


To be honest, I'm just not that fast. That's great if your dog has a really reliable recall without training. You need to write down and video exactly how you achieved that and then start selling your method. I guarantee you that if it really works, you'll be a billionaire in no time at all. And I'll be your first client!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The inner workings of a Husky's mind in regard to food vs Freedom

Food: - 109401241208910519058901285819285021898327752938758912759
Freedom: +4579347589327851205218023843887634972389512775891298327932789579235732857892375823789572389758917289712578326587236572896234783279783


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

You got that right!!!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

They may take our food, but they'll never take our FREEEEEDOOOM!


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