# Trainer was just here for snapping puppy



## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Hi

We brought a trainer in house to help correct a 3 1/2 month old puppy who snaps, growls when held... if he wants to be put down. We have only had him a few weeks.

This was the scenario: Trainer sits on ground and holds puppy. Puppy wants to get at bowel of food. Puppy starts snapping at trainers face, growling. She does not let him down. This goes on for about 5 minutes. She finally lets him down when hes calm. 
Now mind you, I have young kids at home and many toddlers visiting, and I am looking at this scenario thinking this puppy is sooo out of here! 

However, the trainer feels he will grow out of this, if we keep repeating the above scenario. Not letting him go until he is calm. She says he has learned bite inhibition, because he was not biting down hard, nor did he bite her face.
The kids are only to hold him supervised, on the ground and not face to face. 

This scenario really scared me and Im wondering if I should re-home him to an adult house before something worse happens. I cannot 100% supervise him all his life and it will be easier to re-home him now.

He also does this with our golden and the trainer said to let the dogs figure it out. 

Any suggestions out there, those that have had experience with this type of behavior?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm not certain this is abnormal puppy behavior. Is it possible that you were unprepared for raising a puppy? What is your commitment level at this point?


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

I have raised golden puppies and never once did any of them growl or snap at my face. This puppy is a maltipoo, so there is a different behavior. 
I am committed to training the puppy, but I cannot tolerate direct threats to my children.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

IMO, if you find puppy nipping threatening, yes, you should rehome the dog. It's really not fair to the puppy to expect him to be like your other dog, and this resentment will affect your interaction with him. 

The pup needs an environment where he is given the chance to learn, not an environment where if he does this or that he's out the door. Whether this is your home or not, I can't answer, but I've already given you my opinion.

Of all behaviors, bite inhibition is the most valuable. So long as you feel comfortable maintaining and training bite inhibition with this dog, you should keep the dog. However, this is a life long training process with the dog. I don't care if the dog is 5 years old, the perfect dog, and has never bitten anyone, you must continue to train bite inhibition. 

As for the toddlers, until you're comfortable around him, you'll have to manage him around children. Is he being crate trained?


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

I do crate train him. I have tolerance for and patience for all, however my kids are more important to me than the dog and I will not tolerate him biting snapping at the kids. My house is full of kids constantly in and out from infants, toddlers to teenagers. We have an open house environment and the neigborhood kids, friends kids, families kids are constantly here. In and out all day long. I cannot crate him when children are here, because they are here 90% of the time in the summer and off school days. I need to watch the children constantly but I cannot watch all the children and both dogs 100% of the time.

The puppy will need to learn to tolerate and love children. If he cannot, I cannot take the chance of him hurting anyone....lawsuits....euthansia etc. Its not fair to the dog and not fair to the children.

My Golden cries to be with the children, I sit and watch and she is constantly handled and loves all the hugs and kisses and attention from the kids. She even tolerates the not so nice toddlers, which I need to correct.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Again, you can't expect a puppy to do anything but bite, and if you're expecting him to learn how not to bite on his own, well, you're asking for failure. The environment you described (a chaotic one) is not very conducive to learning. You have to be able to control all aspects of the dog's environment, otherwise, you won't get the behaviors you prefer. Your dog's behavior is predicted by the stimuli in his environment. So if you have kids running around on their own motives, what are the chances you can control the dog's behavior? Not very good IMO. If the scenario you painted is unavoidable, rehoming the dog is the better option IMO. Not sure if that's what you wanted to hear, but the time you invest now in the pup will determine the dog you'll have. It doesn't sound like you have that time.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

I have the puppy on a leash all the time. Mostly tethered to me except when the kids are taking him out on a potty break (with the leash). But this cant last forever.
I understand normal puppy biting,teething, but snapping and growling at peoples faces to get your way, I dont understand this and never will. 
The puppy will not do this to me or my husband as he sees us as the authority, but bring any new person or children and he will try to take over.
Unfortunately, you need new people and kids to hold him to train him. I dont know if I want to chance him biting any of them. It would be like using them as bait. I also dont want a dog I need to lock up for fear of biting. He respects me and my husband and I am sure he will respect an adult owner who does not have as chaotic of a household.
I will sleep on it because right now Im feeling a bit overwhelmed.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

pepino said:


> I understand normal puppy biting,teething, but snapping and growling at peoples faces to get your way, I dont understand this and never will.


Dogs do what works. So if snapping and growling gets the control over their environment, the dog will snap and growl. It's a strategy designed into all dogs for survival. 



> The puppy will not do this to me or my husband as he sees us as the authority, but bring any new person or children and he will try to take over.


It has nothing to do with authority or how the dog views you. It has to do, again, with what works. He's learned that this behavior doesn't work with you, but if he has a history of children giving in to what the dog was seeking, he'll do what works with children. It a history of the dog's learning you're observing, not malicious intent. 



> Unfortunately, you need new people and kids to hold him to train him. I dont know if I want to chance him biting any of them. It would be like using them as bait. I also dont want a dog I need to lock up for fear of biting. He respects me and my husband and I am sure he will respect an adult owner who does not have as chaotic of a household.


You have every right to blame your breeder...this is where it started. Your breeder should have introduced this dog to many, many children (by the dozens). Doesn't sound like that happened.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Your right about him figuring out that he can do it with the children. He knows they will cry and drop him. Or even the adult who comes over will drop him when he snaps.
He knows my husband and I will not drop him.

So how do you train him without using the kids as bait, which is not a healthy situation?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

What kind of dog is this?

Is it only when your holding him? 

The only advice I can offer is something I did when I first started watching my niece and nephew over a year ago, my nephew was five'ish and my niece was nine'ish.

Everyday after school, we came home, had our snack then had a "training session" with the dogs in our dining room. Each kid would pick a dog, and we would do a run through of sits, downs, stands and stays.. whatever I could think of.

Then the kids would switch dogs. I had never left the dogs alone with the kids before, or ever really, but I found after a week or so of doing this, I didn't have to constantly tell the dogs to sit or to stop licking the kids, the kids would tell the dogs to down or sit themselves, and the dogs would listen.

And it gave me a good environment to teach the kids about "dogs", while they were still having fun.

We have a few parents that come in with their kids for classes, I think the youngest girl being around 7. Some do the whole class alone, with little help from their parents. The whole run through, bonding excercise, sits/downs/come.. everything.

As you mentioned above, it's an iffy situation because you don't want to use the kids as bait. So I'm not going to touch that with a 10 foot pole!

But as for building a bond between kids and dog, respect between the two, small training sessions everyday is a start. Then perhaps with time the kids could have the dog tethered to them if they are old enough.

Good luck!


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

Apparently the breeder didn't socialize the pup with children and he's scared out of his wits or he was born with a fearful temperament. 

In an active household such as you describe, it's going to be virtually impossible to ease his insecurities. It certainly isn't likely to happen by using forced restraint or keeping him crated.

My vote would be to take him back to the breeder and have them find him a home in a calmer setting while he's still young enough to be properly socialized.

Good luck whatever you decide!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

applesmom said:


> Apparently the breeder didn't socialize the pup with children and he's scared out of his wits or he was born with a fearful temperament.
> 
> In an active household such as you describe, it's going to be virtually impossible to ease his insecurities. It certainly isn't likely to happen by using forced restraint or keeping him crated.
> 
> ...


Applesmom
This is a maltipoo, whatever that is I can't keep track. I'm going to assume it's a mixed breed designer something or just a mistake. What are the odds that the breeder is going to do anything about the problem. 

Pepino, you know your home better than anybody else. You got to make the decision. I'm a little confused about what the trainer said about the pup had already learned bite inhibition. Is this something pup had learned before she got there or did she teach him the bite inhibition with her one visit. If the pup had learned before she got there you did not need trainer. If she taught pup in one lesson, I'm a tad skeptical. I knew a trainer who had 10 kennel runs 5 on each side facing each other with a 10 ft path between kennels. He would work his well trained dog between the kennels with 10 dogs in the runs he then would tell the 10 owners that their dogs were watching and learning the work. Isn't that amazing all that training and he never touched a dog. Actually he was ahead of his time, now we have dog psychics who look at your dog and tells you the dog told him/her that he likes cheeseburgers. Please this may not be your trainer as I do not know her. Just some trivia from years distant and not so distant. The bottom line is if dog makes you that nervous it's decision time. Oh, did trainer make another appt or is this a one time visit.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Is it possible that someone inadvertantly hurt him when he was being held? Perhaps he doesn't like to be held and you should respect that?

I have 2 kittens- one HATES to be held. She will pass gass to be put down. We respect that she doesn't like to be held and don't pick her up.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

The dog is a cross between a maltese and a poodle. It is sold as good for kids by breeders over the internet and in the paper. I could take it back and they will put it up as a rescue dog. I dont know if they will take it back with snapping issues. I have e-mailed and am waiting for a response. 

The dog does not dislike being held. Most of the time he is calm being held. 
BUT he has learned that when he wants down he can bite and growl and the person holding him will let him down.

The trainer says he is like a little kid having a temper tantrum and we cant give in. The problem is how do you get the kids not to give in to a snapping dog? I could take over and restrain him, I suppose, but he knows he cant get away with this in my arms.
Yes we could avoid holding him, but this will not train him to not snap if he is held in the future. 

ALso, this moring he was chewing on a toy he wasnt suppose to. When I took it away he snapped at me (did not bite). I picked him up by the scruff as his mom would and said NO! 

I am getting frustrated with him to say the least.

The following is a description of the maltipoo temperment on the internet:

"*A maltepoo/maltipoo seems to be born with a natural love for mankind.They gravitate to children and the ill .They are lively and happy to be a member of the family and they are most at home with a child ."*
This is what sold me on this hybrid breed.

Here is another quote online about the maltipoo....sounds great for kids doesnt it?

"One property that they specially inherits from their parent breed maltese is, they love to play a game of chase em. Maltipoo breed puppies are also bounding with energy. *Maltipoo breed puppies are gentle natured and not very mischievous. Maltipoo breed puppies are very intelligent and are always eager to learn new tricks. Maltipoo breed puppies are very good with the children. *
Maltipoo breed puppies enjoy a very good health. The life of a maltipoo breed puppies is estimated to be 12 to 15 years which is a very long life in dogs. The advantage of maltipoo breed puppies as a hybrid breed is that they are very less immune to the genetic diseases. However, due to the fact of maltipoo breed puppies being shed very little, they are hypoallergic. So a great care of maltipoo breed puppies must be done."


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pepino
*
"A maltepoo/maltipoo seems to be born with a natural love for mankind.They gravitate to children and the ill .They are lively and happy to be a member of the family and they are most at home with a child ."*

That is the biggest line of garbage, and why not it's from a garbage breeder. Garbage in and garbage out. I do feel sorry for you because you assumed it was the truth. In reality when these people are not selling maltipoos they are selling swamp land in Florida. Think about it with your children, could you guarantee that one will be a basketball star and another a supreme court judge etc etc. I'm being a tad facetious but your children have a better chance of fulfilling the program, than the maltipoos do. Now does this mean there are no good maltipoos out in the world, no. I'm sure as in any breed/mixed breed dogs/pups being sold the law of averages says there will be some good, some bad and all variables in between. Just as some kids will be basketball stars etc.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

Unfotunately, I fell for the garbage and paid alot of $$$ for a puppy that does not act like the above quote.
I wanted a puppy that would be good and tolerant with kids. I probably should have stuck with the goldens, since I have never had any problems with my goldens and kids in the past.

To the earlier question. 
The trainer will come back as often as I want. The problem is every time she comes theres more $$ out of my pocket. 
And as far as bite inhibition. She did not teach him. She felt he was taught this earlier because he bites/snaps but not hard.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

pepino said:


> Unfotunately, I fell for the garbage and paid alot of $$$ for a puppy that does not act like the above quote.
> I wanted a puppy that would be good and tolerant with kids. I probably should have stuck with the goldens, since I have never had any problems with my goldens and kids in the past.
> 
> To the earlier question.
> ...


Pepino
one last reply, in every breed of dog there are going to be just what you need. Yes some breeds are better but still no guarantee, it's what you do with what you get that counts. Until your children get older maybe just let the Golden do the child work around home. Seems like he's doing some good work. You will find the garbage/hybrid breeders of the world will advertise what I like to call the the cuddly/feel good ads. Cute, Good with kids, great with seniors, no shedding and on and on and on. It just would not look good on the ad if all it said was we bred this litter to sell and make lots of money because people think we are honest folk.
Good luck and remember all this is my opinion only.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

The breeder said they will take the puppy back and find it an adult only home.
They said they will not sell the puppy at full price they will sell it as a "rescue". Of course NO refund.
So this garbage breeder, is going to get paid twice for one dog.
I wish I saw through this in the beginning. I guess Im too trusting.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I rest my case, but do not beat yourself up. A lesson learned may help you down the road.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

The Maltese rescue people called and said they would take him into a foster home and place him in an adult only home. 
This is such a hard decision. I am just afraid if he bites someone when he gets his adult teeth, the dog will be labeled as a biter and a police report will need to be filed etc.
The maltese rescue said this is not normal for a puppy this young and that he probably came from a puppy mill. Which makes me even more sad.
She said Maltese puppies should be with their mom till 12 weeks old to be socialized properly. There was no mom on premises when I got him.


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## nuggsgalore (Apr 27, 2008)

pepino said:


> The maltese rescue said this is not normal for a puppy this young and that he probably came from a puppy mill. Which makes me even more sad.
> She said Maltese puppies should be with their mom till 12 weeks old to be socialized properly. There was no mom on premises when I got him.


You should out that breeder as a puppy mill, forwarding their name and address to the a local humane societies or governmental agencies to investigate conditions at the mill and, hopefully, intervene to rescue the animals if necessary.

Normally I am pro-personal property rights, and the government should only get involved with peoples pets under extreme circumstances, but this breeder seems like a charlatan to me. He/She crossed the line when they refused a refund and wanted to resell the animal. That means they are only in it for the money. They could care less about those dogs. If it is all about the money, I am willing to bet that there are some bad conditions at that mill.

Screw em. Make their life as difficult as they made yours and the dog's.

IMHO


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

I have to make a decision on this puppy before I do all that with the puppy mill. I dont think I will find out where exactly the puppy came from. I believe I got him through a middlman. 
But that is all too late now. I need to do whats best for the dog/family.

Someone told me when he acts aggressive to pick him up and put him on his back. Make him stay that way until he calms down. If he tries to bite hold him under the chin. I tried it with him and he tried to bite several times but could not get at me. He finally calmed down. 
I dont know what is right or wrong and really dont have the time/energy to deal with aggression issues this early in the game. 
He has a jekyl and hyde personality.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

First off, I understand where you're coming from...my house is much like yours, I have two kids (7 and 9) who have friends in and out, there are lots of dogs and kids in the neighborhood, people stopping by, etc. and a dog has to be very stable to do well in my house. I took in a stray last year who had a few issues with growling and snapping at strangers, or occasionally when corrected with a "no". I thought the problem was fixable, but I lacked the resources and patience to fix it, and I know that my home environment was not the best for working on the problem in. I chose to find a new (quieter) home for her with a couple and their teenage daughter, and the dog is doing well there.

If you decide to rehome, I would look for a small breed rescue or do a private rehome yourself through craigslist or similar, just be sure you are upfront and screen well. I would not send the dog back where it came from.

If you decide to work on the problem, the first thing I would do is stop picking the dog up for now. I can't think of any good reasons to pick up a dog...if you need to move her forcibly or restrain her, I would have her drag a leash and use that to move her or hold her back. The second thing I would do is use baby gates to keep her seperate from the kids and the commotion unless you are directly supervising playtime. I would also have your kids actively involved in training commands. Since she is showing some resource guarding, I would implement nilif (I can't really explain it well, you'll have to google it) too. The third thing I would do is find a different trainer...I strongly disagree with the methods you've described the current one using.

Good luck.

ETA: I just re-read that you are already having him drag a leash....I still wouldn't have anyone hold him. I don't think it's necessary for training/socialization, I think being around new people without any contact is good for now.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

pepino said:


> Hi
> 
> This was the scenario: Trainer sits on ground and holds puppy. Puppy wants to get at bowel of food. Puppy starts snapping at trainers face, growling. She does not let him down. This goes on for about 5 minutes. She finally lets him down when hes calm.


 Yeah, didn't you notice anything different when she does it and you do it? Think about it. When someone had a puppy in their arms, didn't you realize that he learned to snap and growl at everyone to give in what he wants? He knows that kids and people are afraid of him. It is what making him so overpower over them. Unfortunately, by letting him to get away with his snapping and growling only encourages him to be dominant and aggressive. 




> However, the trainer feels he will grow out of this, if we keep repeating the above scenario. Not letting him go until he is calm. She says he has learned bite inhibition, because he was not biting down hard, nor did he bite her face.


 All puppies will learn out of it as long as you are being consistent and stepped in as a pack leader all the time. Since you admit that you couldn't supervise the puppy, I agree it is better to re-home. It is better this way than be sorry if you made a terrible mistake.



> He also does this with our golden and the trainer said to let the dogs figure it out.
> 
> Any suggestions out there, those that have had experience with this type of behavior?


 I disagree with the trainer about letting both dogs figure things out. NO WAY! I simple don't agree with her suggestion for MANY good reasons. 


Those early posts Curbside explained about why they are doing it which is very true. 



> The trainer says he is like a little kid having a temper tantrum and we cant give in. The problem is how do you get the kids not to give in to a snapping dog? I could take over and restrain him, I suppose, but he knows he cant get away with this in my arms.


 You don't let your kids have much of interaction with the puppy by touch, bother, play, or held the puppy. Until you can control his behavior first. It is just an accident waiting to happen. I never let anyone pet an aggressive dog until I get it under my control 100%. I want him to know that I control 100% what he does before I allow anyone pet him with me standing there. 



> ALso, this morning he was chewing on a toy he wasn't suppose to. When I took it away he snapped at me (did not bite). I picked him up by the scruff as his mom would and said NO!


 Your puppy is challenging you for taking his toys. This is not a good sign and I hope that the puppy goes to an experienced owner who understands how to handle like him. Not just some people that want a puppy to love and cuddle. 



> He has a jekyl and hyde personality.


 Get this book. http://www.amazon.com/Aggression-Do...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209493088&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/How-Right-Gon...d_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209493088&sr=8-2


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## wingzfan (Nov 30, 2006)

The comment from the trainer that's funny to me is the same comment a trainer gave me a while back. "Let the dogs figure it out". My Golden had sever seperation anxiety and a trainer thought it would be a good idea if we could allow another dog in our home. We rescued what we were told was a family friendly Cocker. We hung out with the dog for a few days before bringing her home and she was great. She was always around other dogs and very wll behaved. We get her home and she completely changed. Taking food, snapping if you took a toy, attacking the Golden for wanting to play etc etc. We brought in a trainer and he said the same thing, "let them work it out". They did one night while my kid was playing with the Golden and his rope, the Cocker grabbed the rope and when the Golden pulled back thinking it was time to play the Cocker went at her and came about an inch from biting my kid. The Golden, who was protective over my daughter immediately went at the cocker and they began to fight. I got the Golden backed off and went to get the Cocker and wound up with 4 stitches in the webbing of my hand between my thumb and index finger. Needless to say the Cocker went to the humaine society that night without a moments hesitation. 

Im currently going thru a rough time training a min pin and this is one of the reasons I wont hire another trainer. Not to say they're all bad but too many of them make up way too many excuses for the dogs behavior and have this happy go lucky idea that nothing bad could or will happen. I completely agree with you that the safety of your kids is the most important part and if the breeder wont refund at least a portion of your money I'd report them.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

The puppy growls and bites my Golden and take her toys. I told that to the trainer but she said not to get involved. The Golden will correct the puppy if needed. 
My priority right now is to my children. I have found a family with a 15 year old who is interested in the puppy. Do you thinks this is an old enough age to rehome this puppy to? I explained the situation to the mother. 
I really dont want to take him back where he came from. I dont want to support these mills anymore than I have.


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## wingzfan (Nov 30, 2006)

Im no expert but I will say this. 15 Year olds tend to get "bored" with things and put them aside. Sounds like the dog needs someone who is willing to spend alot of time training the pup and its behavior and it may be too much for a 15 year old. Plus the patience level of a 15 year old is not that of an adult who understands what they're getting into. Most likely the teenager sees this as an oppourtunity for a new puppy and isnt aware of the training the pup needs.

Just my somewhat educated opinion.


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

I think mom wants the puppy for her other hybrid dog. Not for her 15 year old. The mom would be the trainer.


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## wingzfan (Nov 30, 2006)

Different story then. I thought you were saying she was getting it for the 15 year old. I'd let the 2 dogs meet and let the mom decide if shes up for it. I wouldnt let it be a 1 time meet either and I'd make it be on her dogs territory. I'd let them hang out for a while at least a few times before letting her take the pup.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

wingzfan said:


> The comment from the trainer that's funny to me is the same comment a trainer gave me a while back. "Let the dogs figure it out". My Golden had sever seperation anxiety and a trainer thought it would be a good idea if we could allow another dog in our home. We rescued what we were told was a family friendly Cocker. We hung out with the dog for a few days before bringing her home and she was great. She was always around other dogs and very wll behaved. We get her home and she completely changed. Taking food, snapping if you took a toy, attacking the Golden for wanting to play etc etc. We brought in a trainer and he said the same thing, "let them work it out". They did one night while my kid was playing with the Golden and his rope, the Cocker grabbed the rope and when the Golden pulled back thinking it was time to play the Cocker went at her and came about an inch from biting my kid. The Golden, who was protective over my daughter immediately went at the cocker and they began to fight. I got the Golden backed off and went to get the Cocker and wound up with 4 stitches in the webbing of my hand between my thumb and index finger. Needless to say the Cocker went to the humaine society that night without a moments hesitation.
> 
> Im currently going thru a rough time training a min pin and this is one of the reasons I wont hire another trainer. Not to say they're all bad but too many of them make up way too many excuses for the dogs behavior and have this happy go lucky idea that nothing bad could or will happen. I completely agree with you that the safety of your kids is the most important part and if the breeder wont refund at least a portion of your money I'd report them.


I would not return pup to breeder because he/she has said he would sell dog as a rescued dog and explain what had happened. I see a scenario where he mentions a different type of reason (if he says anything at all) why owner got rid of dog. He would probably mention though that 1st owner had a trainer working dog and charge more money for pup. He/she is a garbage breeder that's what they do.


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## wingzfan (Nov 30, 2006)

No I agree, I never said return the pup, I said report the breeder. We're on the same page there.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

wingzfan said:


> No I agree, I never said return the pup, I said report the breeder. We're on the same page there.


No the OP had mentioned talking to breeder and he said breeder told him to return pup with no refund and he would resell pup I just popped that on your post when I replied cause you had good stuff.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

Wingzfan,


Unfortunately, the advice that your trainer gave is DEADLY dangerous. It upsets me a lot when people are telling me that their trainers said to let dogs work things out. It is so wrong! 

I'm sorry that you learned the heard lesson and this is something should have NEVER happen. 



pepino said:


> The puppy growls and bites my Golden and take her toys. I told that to the trainer but she said not to get involved. The Golden will correct the puppy if needed.


 Pepino,

I understand that you want to trust your trainer; however, to let dogs working things out is a BAD BAD idea and it is an accident waiting to happen. I don't know how many years of experience your trainer has; however, I can tell you a bit about myself. Since she suggested things like that, I'm guessing she doesn't have much experience with aggression. I'm not saying that she is not a good trainer, but she has a lot to learn about not letting dogs figuring things out. 

This is a common mistake that trainers would tell their clients to do. Well, don't worry much about and let themselves work things out. I hope that she didn't come in to just get your money and tell you what easy things to solve your dog's problem. I really hope she isn't that kind of trainer, but some trainers would charge like 500 dollars for a few session. 

I'm sure that you don't know anything about what I have done. I'm not trying to brag here, but I want you to understand that I have worked with dogs on aggression issues many times. I know things giving out an advice such as allow a young kid working on her dog on aggression problem or let dogs figure things out on their own. Are a big "NO NO NO." It is bad and it could send someone to the hosptial or one of those dogs will get hurt badly.  

I have worked with two dogs in schutzhund that focus on protection training, tracking, and advanced obedience. I'm currently training Elisa in French ring and Mondio ring. Both do different kinds of bite works. 

I have dealt with some people and their problem dogs. I wouldn't say I am the best one out of there and I am still learning. I just understand what things need to be done to prevent bad things from happening such as dog-dog fighitng, people-dog aggression, medical aggression, and other kinds. 

I have been involved with dog trainings for seven years. The biggest mistake I made was allowing an inexperinced trainer working on my dog's defense mechanism. Since the helper gave too much stress on my dog, he became a fearful and aggressive dog. I realized that I have gotten so careful about who can work with my dog and make sure this person has tons of experience and know how to read the dogs.

I do things that involves bite work, obedience, tracking, and working with many experienced-famous trainers such as Ivan Balabanov and Michael Ellis. My experience compare to those two men, they are way better than me or any basic trainers. 

Ivan Balabanov has worked with military, police, and high competitive dogs. He hosts a seminar once in a while. He is an awesome trainer and truly understands dog aggression. He has so many accomplishments to prove that he is truly NUMBER one! He has won more than once in AWDF championship, USA schH3 nationals, DVG nationals, World Championship for Belgian shepherds, and Deutshehe meistershaft, and FMBB Le Touquet, France world champion. All those include training dogs to do protection. Here is his website to prove it all. http://www.malinois.com/otvitosha/accomplishment.htm

Michael Elis is an awesome trainer that do ring sports. He has excellent idea and I find him to be a very nice man. He would not look anyone down if they are newbie trainers. He enjoys teach them something new. What makes him so good is that he uses positive method to train dogs.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

By putting a basket muzzle on him, he can still open and close his mouth, can still snap but can not make contact. That way the kids can hold him without risk of being bitten, and he can be trained that snapping doesn't get him let down. However, I don't think this would be the ideal way to teach the dog not to snap, just saying, if you did want to go that route, put a basket muzzle on the dog.



pepino said:


> So how do you train him without using the kids as bait, which is not a healthy situation?


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

melgrj7 said:


> By putting a basket muzzle on him, he can still open and close his mouth, can still snap but can not make contact. That way the kids can hold him without risk of being bitten, and he can be trained that snapping doesn't get him let down. However, I don't think this would be the ideal way to teach the dog not to snap, just saying, if you did want to go that route, put a basket muzzle on the dog.


 I respectfully disagree. I don't think it is a good idea at all. The most important things that need to happen here is the puppy's nipping/growling behavior under control first 100% before she lets anyone pet and held him.

The puppy needs to spend more time in crate than hanging out in the kitchen or anywhere. Only on tether him when she is taking him for potty break, and walk. Pretty much she doesn't give the puppy any attention. This puppy doesn't need any one or anything to play with and all of his freedom away is gone and find himself spending in crate more often. 

I'm sure not everyone agrees with me; however, I felt this is how you should live with a very aggressive/dominant dog who is so out of control because it gives you more power to control over this dog. It makes the dog realize that you are in control of his life 100%. 

Inside the dog's mind, he is going to think. "If I do things good and positive, I get attention and more freedom." Of course, he wants a freedom, but he has to earn it. 

My opinion this way is how people should live with their overly aggressive dogs for first few days or a week. It depends on dog. This might sound very cruel; however, it is not. It is just one way to live with if you want to control aggressive dogs. 

After those few days later, you start to give the dog more freedom such as more time to play with toys, introduce to some obedience training, introduce to family members, etc. He knows that you will control him how he is around other people and kids. It is unlikely that he wants to get into fight with you after you correcting him once. If you don't want to believe me, at least give it a try and see what happen in next few days. You might see a big improvement.


*When he gets to spend more time in crate. He is going to get very bored and whine a lot, but he is finding that no one is going to listen to him. All his fun freedom is ZOOM gone! He is going to realize that he can't manipulative anyone with his growling and whining. *

I am swearing that he wants to go outside to explore and play, but he found out that his freedom is all gone in a few days. He will change and start to seek for more attention. He doesn't know that he is going to have those freedom back in a couple of days. He will realize that his mom has more power than he does. 


I doubt that she is going to do that since she is more comfortable re-home the puppy which is fine with me. I only hope to see this puppy going to an experienced home who know how to handle something like him. Not somebody who wants to love and spoil him because he is a baby.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

You must have missed where I said I didn't think it was a good idea to go this route. I was just saying that if she DID decide to do it, the dog should have a muzzle on for the protection of the people.




French Ring said:


> I respectfully disagree. I don't think it is a good idea at all. The most important things that need to happen here is the puppy's nipping/growling behavior under control first 100% before she lets anyone pet and held him.


Originally Posted by melgrj7 
By putting a basket muzzle on him, he can still open and close his mouth, can still snap but can not make contact. That way the kids can hold him without risk of being bitten, and he can be trained that snapping doesn't get him let down. *However, I don't think this would be the ideal way to teach the dog not to snap, just saying, if you did want to go that route, put a basket muzzle on the dog.*


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Place the puppy with the rescue. Disclose the biting problem. They are sending it to foster care first. People who foster are normally experienced with training issues, that it why the pup is fostered in the first place. If you decide to get another dog how about an adult rescue? Perhaps another golden? If you have children in and out of the house all the time a rescue would match you with a dog that has a temperament for a busy household with children. Just a thought. Good luck hope all works out for you!


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> I do crate train him. I have tolerance for and patience for all, however my kids are more important to me than the dog and I will not tolerate him biting snapping at the kids.


Nor would I, however, the only way for this puppy to let you know he doesn't like being held is to snap and growl (and even then you don't listen! You force him to be held)! This is pretty normal puppy behavior. Why are you forcing him to be held? Once he adjusts to your household and relaxes, he's much more apt to feel safe being held. 



> My house is full of kids constantly in and out from infants, toddlers to teenagers. We have an open house environment and the neigborhood kids, friends kids, families kids are constantly here. In and out all day long. I cannot crate him when children are here, because they are here 90% of the time in the summer and off school days. I need to watch the children constantly but I cannot watch all the children and both dogs 100% of the time.


Then maybe now is not a good time to get a small breed puppy who requires your committment to do all that it takes to raise a happy, well adjusted dog. Children and dogs need to be supervised at all times when together. 



> The puppy will need to learn to tolerate and love children. If he cannot, I cannot take the chance of him hurting anyone....lawsuits....euthansia etc. Its not fair to the dog and not fair to the children.


*You haven't even given this puppy a chance*. You can't expect a young puppy to come into a busy household like yours and instantly behave like a fully trained dog! It takes time, patience, persistence, and being consistent, and being fully committed to the task. 



> My Golden cries to be with the children, I sit and watch and she is constantly handled and loves all the hugs and kisses and attention from the kids. She even tolerates the not so nice toddlers, which I need to correct.



Well that's just great that your Golden loves to be with the kids. She's a lot bigger than your little Maltipoo, who is much more vulnerable due to size. Toddlers need to be taught how to interact appropriately with dogs, and to be especially careful with puppies. I wouldn't allow a toddler to hold a puppy who doesn't like being held.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I am sorry but I am stuck on the first post. No trainer takes a dog they just met and holds them down without working with the dog- in this case PUPPY first to get a working relationship going. As far as the puppy was concerned - this stranger was holding them down for God Knows what.. And to say put it down because they can not work with the puppy- I want their name....


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

The trainer did NOT say to put the dog down...


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

jesirose said:


> The trainer did NOT say to put the dog down...


 The trainer held the dog down without working with the dog to earn respect and working ability.. What an idiot.. !


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

borzoimom said:


> The trainer held the dog down without working with the dog to earn respect and working ability.. What an idiot.. !


I'm not speaking for the OP, but I think the OP was just commenting on a scenario that was concerning. She did not go into detail about what happened before this scenario. Also, the trainer did not hold the dog down. The trainer held the dog in her arms (at least this is how I read the statement), and didn't let the dog down when he was mouthing. If I had to guess the trainer was testing the dog's temperament...perhaps because the OP was concerned.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Could be- but as a certified trainer- this is a puppy.. You get the puppy to work WITH you, then you asses the puppy. By then the puppy knows " what you are all about.". The pup sounds highly unsocialized, has no clue what people are for, and worried and probably biting out of fear- NOT aggression.. Think about it- as a baby- why start a fight out of aggression- NO- ITS fear! i.e panic.- bring the pup to me- ... I would bet you I could show a different side of this puppy.. ( bangs head on computer..)


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Ugh. Saying the trainer suggested putting the dog down is NOT the same as physically holding a dog down. Saying "put a dog down" means to put it to sleep. As in kill it. I was replying to your complaint that the trainer suggested killing the dog.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

OP_ this trainer sounds like a bunch of something.. I am in virginia- and sent you a pm..


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## pepino (Apr 15, 2008)

*update on snappy puppy*

Hi

Just want to let you all know how the snappy puppy was doing. He is growing up and doing alot better. We have been trying hard to socialize him. We brought him to a kids soccer game twice so far. We had him around a lot of people at a family party. Alot of kids, adults handled him. I gave him a treat everytime they did and puppy was not snappy, just soaking up the attention. He's also met other dogs at the park. He was VERY happy to meet a Yorkie who was just his size.
The kids are told to not pick up the puppy w/out supervision. When they pick him up I give him a treat. We also are working on daily obedience. He knows how to sit, go down and wait at the door. He is also learning to go pee or go poo on demand. 
He is not perfect, but a puppy, and I think all the hard work is finally starting to show.
I think he is figuring out that being picked up or interrupted is not such a bad thing after all.
I just wanted you to all know.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

*Re: update on snappy puppy*

Good for you and the puppy! It sounds like you are handling it very well. 

Some dogs just have a lower tolerence level than others and are more prone to "lash out" when they are frustrated or irritated. They aren't bad dogs, they just take a bit more patience and understanding.


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