# Why you should never, ever hit your dog.



## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

No, it's not because dogs should be treated with kindness and it's not nice to cause physical pain to another living being. Sure, that's true but it's not the main reason, especially when it's really in the context of using "hitting" as a training tool. 

The better way to put it then might be.."why you should not hit your dog as an aid to training". 

These are my reasons based on things I read, and personal experience, and what I consider to be "basic common sense".

1- Hitting your dog could cause it physical injury as well as unecessary pain
2- The dog will fear you. Some simpleminded people may say "well that's good, I want my dog to be afraid of me!". No, you don't. A dog that is afraid of you will be more concerned about it's next beating rather than trying to follow your instructions. It will be hyper, nervous, suffer from stress related medical conditions and will basically not be a fun and loving pet.
3- The dog may respond defensively and cause you injury. Not that you wouldn't deserve it, but it's only going to drive up everyone else's medical insurance. 
4- The dog will "second guess" everything you ask it to do because the fear will always be there..rather than it acting reflexively and out of love and respect it will be "avoiding the punishment", which will cause it to respond slower and less accurately. 
5- It won't be trustworthy off leash because once it clicks that it can get away from the abuse...see ya later alligator..if you get my drift. 

There are probably other reasons..comments are welcome. 

The take home message..you want your dog to listen to you out of love and respect and an eagerness to please, not out of fear.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

It's not right to hit a dog, ever. Because it's wrong. 

Dogs SHOULD be treated with kindness.

And it is NOT nice to cause physical pain to anything.

It doesn't matter on a training aspect, it's just wrong, plain and simple.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> It's not right to hit a dog, ever. Because it's wrong.
> 
> Dogs SHOULD be treated with kindness.
> 
> ...


That's true, I am not disagreeing with you at all. Some people don't see dogs or other animals as being "worthy of treated with kindness", animal abuse and neglect by their owners is rampant..

The purpose of my post was to suggest that even if a person doesn't give a damn about being kind to their animal that they won't accomplish anything by using physical abuse as some sort of "forced shortcut to training"; that it will be counterproductive and there are much better ways (BESIDES the fact that it's cruelty to animals to hit them and cause them pain).


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

If someone doesn't give a dang about how animals(dogs) should be treated, then they shouldn't have them in the first place.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Pepper said:


> If someone doesn't give a dang about how animals(dogs) should be treated, then they shouldn't have them in the first place.



That may be very true but in the real, not the perfect world, they do own dogs and other animals. Thus, if you can get these people to treat their animals better by giving them practical, non-emotional, reasons for doing so you're doing the animals a service.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Psh, Wally was scared of me from day one...and I had never met the dog before much less hit him.



I don't have to hit him. I can just give him "that look" and lower my voice about 2 octaves and put him into a shaking fit. I think he has that fear in the back of his mind (at least it's in the back, not the front now) and I actually think that makes him perform _faster, more accurately, and better_. 

I know that when I am upset with him, or he senses I might not be happy with him, suddenly he's following all the rules, sitting where he's supposed to be on walks, waiting for my directions and "freelancing" less, acting less 'demanding', and those big brown eyes are watching me, nothing everything else.

You might not call it "fear" per se, but there has to be that "something" that keeps the dog from just saying "yeah I like you but I ain't doing squat for you." or "I hear you, but I rather check out this scent over here."

No, I'm not saying hit the dog (but I do not disagree with physically placing him somewhere or in a position if he refuses to do so and he knows the action), but I don't think "love and respect" are enough to have a dog that performs readily - at least it wasn't in Wally's case. 

I mean, he "loves and respects" my mom (is polite, gentle, friendly, accepts petting and grooming from her, and food from her), but she can't get him to do a command on the first instance very often, especially if he's nervous or distracted by something.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Pepper said:


> It's not right to hit a dog, ever. Because it's wrong.
> 
> Dogs SHOULD be treated with kindness.
> 
> ...


It depends on what you are trying to train a dog to do. Dogs are trained to do arduous work that (BTW) saves human lives. The training can seem harsh but the dogs need to learn to work through pressure to get it done. Their real-world jobs can be much harsher. The dogs love to go to work.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I don't hit Hallie it isn't needed in this household. Considering if I say "no" very loud and clear she runs to her bed and looks up at me with those eyes that make me feel guilty for even saying no in the first place. If you have a good relationship with your dog "NO" is enough! If I say "no" Hallie stops everything she is doing, goes to her bed, and waits for a command. It even works at the dog park! She'll run away (bad recall) and I'll say "Hallie no" and she just stops and waits for me to catch up.  Hitting is never needed.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It depends on what you are trying to train a dog to do. Dogs are trained to do arduous work that (BTW) saves human lives. The training can seem harsh but the dogs need to learn to work through pressure to get it done. Their real-world jobs can be much harsher. The dogs love to go to work.


This is very true. If you've seen police dogs trained, the dogs can be hit multiple times to build up their drive. When it comes to what the animal's job is versus his existence, his existence is secondary when harm of another human is on the line. 

For the companion animal, however, punishments needn't be physical, so IMO they shouldn't be physical. We have a lifetime to figure out how to use our brain with the animal, so why not use it.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Too late for me. I came downstairs this morning to see something I have NEVER seen before... Sioux with front feet up on the counter leaning into the sink to lick a conrbread pan. He was so in the zone that he didn't notice I was standing right next to him. I regret to inform you all that he was in fact hit. I suspect that our relationship is now forever scarred and his world revolves around avoiding my next attack...


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

harrise,

you should have given him a warning nip! (ok, those who are reading this, the "nip" is not a proper technique and meant as a joke) 

IDK... I caught Ilya counter surfing a few weeks ago and he had the "busted" look on his face. Sneaky dog, I don't think he counter surfs knowing my image of a trustworthy dog is now broken. ... I'm still miffed.

Though, I don't think dog owners should hold a stick over a dog's head in order to get it to sit, my sometimes stubborn husky will do most anything if he loves and respects you... and you have some frozen liver treats to entice him sometimes. He doesn't seem to listen to my teen son very much and I think it is because he forgot to verbally praise him when he does.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> For the companion animal, however, punishments needn't be physical, so IMO they shouldn't be physical. We have a lifetime to figure out how to use our brain with the animal, so why not use it.


Agree. Most people just want a well mannered, reasonably obedient, companion who comes when called and doesn't steal the Thanksgiving turkey off the counter. Most dogs don't need physical corrections to get to that place, and few owners are sufficiently able to separate emotion from physical correction.

There is also the issue of dogs specifically bred to work through extreme pressure. The best field trial-bred Labradors, or Schutzhund-bred Malinois, are different kinds of dogs than most people are used to (or want any part of) and are able to shrug off working conditions that would crush a lot of dogs.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> If someone doesn't give a dang about how animals(dogs) should be treated, then they shouldn't have them in the first place.


In an ideal world that's true. 

But go ahead and turn into that channel where the animal cops go to people's houses and the cases of animal cruelty are prevalent. 

Just because a person "shouldn't" abuse an animal doesn't doesn't stop them from "doing it". However, if they are aware that what they are doing is counterproductive to their own goals, such as training the dog, maybe they will give it a second thought..not for the good of the dog but for their own selfish reasons.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

I once saw a Animal Cops where the officers freaked out just becaus the dog had a couple of ticks. They kinda went overboard, imo.

*Too late for me. I came downstairs this morning to see something I have NEVER seen before... Sioux with front feet up on the counter leaning into the sink to lick a conrbread pan. He was so in the zone that he didn't notice I was standing right next to him. I regret to inform you all that he was in fact hit. I suspect that our relationship is now forever scarred and his world revolves around avoiding my next attack...*

I've been guilty of the same.  Except I all ususally have to do is slap, poke or jab....


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

harrise said:


> Too late for me. I came downstairs this morning to see something I have NEVER seen before... Sioux with front feet up on the counter leaning into the sink to lick a conrbread pan. He was so in the zone that he didn't notice I was standing right next to him. I regret to inform you all that he was in fact hit. I suspect that our relationship is now forever scarred and his world revolves around avoiding my next attack...


I would have yanked the dog off the sink by its collar, ripped anything still left in it's mouth out of it's mouth, and held it by it's collar firmly and screamed "NO!" right at it from right in front of it's face.

Then possibly confined to quarters for 20 minutes or so.

In the future the sink would be clean.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I doubt the sink would have been clean, he probably just would have counter surfed when you weren't anywhere near.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> I doubt the sink would have been clean, he probably just would have counter surfed when you weren't anywhere near.


I meant that if it was my dog going for the stuff in the sink I would remove the temptation by not leaving stuff IN the sink..I would clean the plates and pans after using them.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't like screaming at anything. If I say no to a dog they are trained to stop what they are doing and do something different. I personally like a fly swatter for house problems. A soft voice and a fly swatter works for me.(don't reverse fly swatter and use the handle)


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I've found that my own actions showing disappointment in myself gets the point across strongly enough and there is definitely no need for yelling at or physically punishing the dogs for my mistakes. Having learned through trial and error, *I know better* than to leave stuff on counters or tables or the floor, or leave the trash cans down or keep the litter box out when I can't be there to watch and I also know to make sure puppy Tater gets out often enough to potty and to supervise him closely or crate him indoors so he doesn't have a moment to himself to lift a leg.



wizer said:


> I would have yanked the dog off the sink by its collar, ripped anything still left in it's mouth out of it's mouth, and held it by it's collar firmly and screamed "NO!" right at it from right in front of it's face.


If you did that to our Max, he would likely rearrange your face. If you wanted to "rip anything still left" out of Tater's mouth, you'd probably have to break his little jaw. Jake, Clarity and Peanut would probably bite you. Pood would usually give it up. Sam would probably eat whatever it was as he ran away. I don't take anything from my dogs, we trade.




wizer said:


> Then possibly confined to quarters for 20 minutes or so.


Do you really think a dog is going to sit in confinement and think about what just happened for 20 minutes, rationalize it out and vow to never ever do it again?




wizer said:


> In the future the sink would be clean.


If you're going to keep the sink clean afterwards anyway, why would go through the motions of scolding the dog in such a dangerous way for something that you should have prevented in the first place?


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## fuzzypuppies (Dec 22, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> I've found that my own actions showing disappointment in myself gets the point across strongly enough and there is definitely no need for yelling at or physically punishing the dogs for my mistakes. Having learned through trial and error, *I know better* than to leave stuff on counters or tables or floor, leave the trash cans down or keep the litter box out and I also know to make sure puppy Tater gets out often enough to potty and to supervise him closely or crate him indoors so he doesn't have a moment to himself to lift a leg.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand there are certain things you need to do when you have a pet, but wouldn't the best alternative be to teach your pet to not counter surf or sink dive as opposed to just removing the temptation?

In a perfect world I would love to be able to have an empty sink after meals but that just doesn't happen. I'd rather teach my dog to not do that.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> I've found that my own actions showing disappointment in myself gets the point across strongly enough and there is definitely no need for yelling at or physically punishing the dogs for my mistakes. Having learned through trial and error, *I know better* than to leave stuff on counters or tables or the floor, or leave the trash cans down or keep the litter box out when I can't be there to watch and I also know to make sure puppy Tater gets out often enough to potty and to supervise him closely or crate him indoors so he doesn't have a moment to himself to lift a leg.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to agree.

*If you did that to our Max, he would likely rearrange your face.*

Through the years I have had to say the least some interesting dogs/alligators that you really did not want to do the scream/collar and food out of mouth at the same time routines. I leave that stuff for people with better reflexes (even when I was young and had reflexes) I just knew there was an easier, safer approach.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

fuzzypuppies said:


> I understand there are certain things you need to do when you have a pet, but wouldn't the best alternative be to teach your pet to not counter surf or sink dive as opposed to just removing the temptation?
> 
> In a perfect world I would love to be able to have an empty sink after meals but that just doesn't happen. I'd rather teach my dog to not do that.



I chanced it and left those yucky meat trays from the grocery store in plain sight in the sink all last night. Our dogs don't countersurf when we are around because they aren't rewarded for doing so when we aren't here by having the counters empty and when we are here we watch them, redirect them when they show interest in whatever may be on the counter and reward them for staying away from temptation. If I want to leave something extra tempting on the counter when I can't watch it, I block off the kitchen. An ounce of prevention...


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Wizer, I do not understand how you can be against striking a dog yet be totally fine with grabbing the dog by its collar and screaming in its face. Both things are equally unacceptable in my opinion. If I screamed in either of my dogs' faces, they'd probably pee on themselves and shut down.

I don't consider hitting OR screaming to be training at all, but just the human losing their temper and showing the dog how dangerous and unpredictable they are and that the dog should fear them.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

HA! I was waiting for the management crowd to chime in. No matter what you do to avoid things, people around you are also involved and you can not 100% prepare for that factor. I had a very rare (almost legendary) opportunity being able to walk up to the act in progress. 

¿Maybe I knocked him out cold, maybe I poked him with a finger, what's the definition of "hit"?


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

harrise said:


> HA! I was waiting for the management crowd to chime in. No matter what you do to avoid things, people around you are also involved and you can not 100% prepare for that factor.


You could make the same excuse for housebreaking or training for focus, or loose leash walking, or stays... 




harrise said:


> ¿Maybe I knocked him out cold, maybe I poked him with a finger, what's the definition of "hit"?


What's considered punishing would depend upon the dog. I can wag a finger in the air around Sam when I'm upset and he would find it punishing. Jake likes to be wacked on the butt during play HARD, but finds me saying "DAMMIT! I left the trash out again and now look..." in another room punishing. Max thinks nail clips are punishment. Tater often seems to think me walking around talking on a cell phone is punishment for who knows what he thinks he did. 

I'm guessing you probably "hit" your dog hard enough for him to consider it punishment, unless you were using it as a distraction. If you were meaning to punish, unless the counter surfing behavior diminishes as a result, what difference does it make other than you hit your dog which does what to build your relationship with him and teach him to do what instead of counter surf?


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Cheetah said:


> Wizer, I do not understand how you can be against striking a dog yet be totally fine with grabbing the dog by its collar and screaming in its face. Both things are equally unacceptable in my opinion.


Hitting a dog causes it pain and possibly physical injury and is crossing the line in my opinion.

If I don't sometimes grab my dog from the collar and restrain her and yell at her she basically laughs me off in her own dog sort of way. Even when I do that, 2 minutes later she's off and playing like it never even happened. 

I'm not saying all dogs are the same way. If a dog will respond to less forceful techniques than that's all you should do.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

I'm guessing none of you have ever stalked your dogs for over 24 hours straight. I have the time to waste watching CC video with RCA cables strewn about the house. You can think what you want of my relationship with my dogs, their actions tell me different. Oh, wait, he's quivering and squirming in the corner worried about my next move.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> Do you really think a dog is going to sit in confinement and think about what just happened for 20 minutes, rationalize it out and vow to never ever do it again?


No, but the dog would associate the punishment of being confined with the action that preceeded the confinement..meaning that after a few repeats the dog won't go for the food on the counter because he knows he will be confined if he does it.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

harrise said:


> I'm guessing none of you have ever stalked your dogs for over 24 hours straight. I have the time to waste watching CC video with RCA cables strewn about the house. You can think what you want of my relationship with my dogs, their actions tell me different. Oh, wait, he's quivering and squirming in the corner worried about my next move.


You can guess all you like, but the truth is that I work from home, so I'm with my dogs and client dogs almost all day every day. And I'm sure we're not the only ones with stuff we'd rather not lose to the dogs strewn about our homes.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wizer said:


> Hitting a dog causes it pain and possibly physical injury and is crossing the line in my opinion.
> 
> If I don't sometimes grab my dog from the collar and restrain her and yell at her she basically laughs me off in her own dog sort of way. Even when I do that, 2 minutes later she's off and playing like it never even happened.
> 
> I'm not saying all dogs are the same way. If a dog will respond to less forceful techniques than that's all you should do.


and forcefully grabbing a collar and such doesn't potentially cause physical pain and injury depending on how forcefully your 'normal' grab is executed?

Im very


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

wizer said:


> No, but the dog would associate the punishment of being confined with the action that preceeded the confinement..meaning that after a few repeats the dog won't go for the food on the counter because he knows he will be confined if he does it.


Perhaps for a few minutes, but why twenty?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

No, that's not how it works in a dog's mind.

You have a few second to correct, and a few seconds to praise.

20 minutes is only going to confuse them.

It can work like this, dog is on bed, dog barks at person entering room. You place dog on floor. Dog is picked up again, and set on bed, person enters, dog barks, put on floor. etc..until the dog does not bark anymore. They realize they are going to be put on the floor when they bark, but brought back up when they are quiet. Therefore they learn appropriate behavior.

You would not take them off the bed for 20 minutes, they would just get bored and probably try to jump back on the bed because they didn't know why you did it.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> and forcefully grabbing a collar and such doesn't potentially cause physical pain and injury depending on how forcefully your 'normal' grab is executed?
> 
> Im very


Maybe I am using poor wording. I grab the collar and firmly and steadily pull her toward me and restrain her. 

She gets a bigger jerk on her neck when she disregards my verbal "NO!" and takes off after a squirrel or person and runs out of leash.



Pepper said:


> No, that's not how it works in a dog's mind.
> 
> You have a few second to correct, and a few seconds to praise.


I understand all that and I know scientific studies have been done that have determined that due to a dog's attention span or ability to connect two unrelated events or whatever you want to call it, the maximum time span between behavior and punishment or reward is something like 20-30 seconds, with decreasing effectiveness with increased time. 

However if you IMMEDIATELY take the dog and confine them or do it within that maximum time span, the LENGTH of the confinement is not calculated into that behavior-punishment timeline.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

I probably don't interpret what everyone posts the same way as it's posted, but it seems like the majority of dogs would break down or attack you for anything more than a click-then-treat approach. I accept that you guys don't want any sort of "aversive advice" given here, and that makes perfect sense. For now you just have to deal with my "what if's" and "anecdotes" until the day I'm not here.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Don't get me wrong, I do use corrections with my own dogs when I have to, but it's nothing more than me clapping and barking out a sharp "ah ah!" or tugging firmly (NOT jerking) on a leash and redirecting. But I would never hit or scream at my dogs in the name of training. To me, it is simply unacceptable.

This is of course excluding "special" training, like police work etc. I realize they have to train them to ignore being hit and screamed at etc. I'm talking about pets.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I think an occasional pop or smack probably wont ruin a dog.

On a daily basis, probably.

But me personally, I won't do it. I've seen people beating chihuahuas before. And it just makes me think of hitting children. Like, your so tough your hitting something that won't defend itself because they are so loyal to you.

I want someone one day to smack their dog like they usually do and just get attacked. 
It would make an interesting article, person gets attacked for smacking their dog.
It makes me wonder why people don't think twice before they smack their mastiff's or German shepherds.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

harrise said:


> I probably don't interpret what everyone posts the same way as it's posted, but it seems like the majority of dogs would break down or attack you for anything more than a click-then-treat approach.


Actually, I don't use a clicker except during training and then it's only for new behaviors, or upping criteria on learned behaviors.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

...Sorry, [/SARCASM]...


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