# Utter Frustration *long*



## HowNowBrownCow (Jan 17, 2012)

Hello Everyone. Newly signed member, but I've browsed frequently when I have dog questions. Now I've come to a point with my rescue mutt that I've decided to get some other opinions.

I have a mix breed dog, we know she has Lab and the other half we're not sure about. We were told German Shepherd, but she shows more characteristics of a Doberman. Anyways, I rescued her when she was about 3 months old, she turned a year in November. She came from a hoarding warehouse where they had about 20 dogs/puppies, and about 40 cats from my understanding. I love her to death, and she's so smart. I have some experience training both dogs and horses and am always complimented on how well behaved she is. 
She had learned all of her toys names (only about 5 at the time) and would fetch them and bring them to us when we'd ask her to. We even taught her how to fetch our car keys(both mine by name, and his). Over the past 2 or 3 months she's stopped behaving so well, it started out more sporatic and seems to be progressing. She started getting into the trash (which she'd never done before) and she's stopped listening. We'll ask her to do a trick for a treat (she knows about 7 more other than 'bring it here') and she'll lay down, or cower, or go lay under the table and pout while giving us the evil eye. We constantly praise her, and are always showing/rewarding her positive behavior. Just yesterday I asked her to speak and she just looked at me, so I asked her to speak again and she cowered away and started shaking under the table. If I try to ask her to do something else she'll run to her cage, or get in her bed like she's in trouble. She's always been a really brave smart dog, we've taken her out shooting/hunting, fishing in a boat, walking on trails, walking along side the horses, etc. Just lately she's seems to have maybe lost all of her confidence, or is being really insolent. Also when I tried to brush her today she just started shaking horribly, and kept trying to roll onto her back. We've never beat her or abused her, she gets a swat on the butt if she gets in the garbage and thats it. I'm just at an end and have no clue what to do. 

Sorry for the long story, anyone have any suggestions?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

You said that the fear and the gargage digging are new behaviors. You also said that you swat her when she digs in the gargage. SO, if I was to guess, I would say that the swatting has made her fear you.

I would manage the garbage by moving it somewhere where she can't get into it, so then you won't have to swat her. I would also give her some space to cool off and forget about the punishment. Sounds like she may be a very soft dog.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Hitting a dog doesn't convince them to behave, it convinces them that you're a dangerous person who can't be trusted. Stop it.

Your dog is 1. In doggy terms, that's a teenager. Dog teenagers are just as frustrating as human teenagers for much the same reason. You just have to get back to basics, keep up with NILIF and training. She'll grow out of it.

By the way, your use of the word "insolent" worries me. It implies that you think the dog is being deliberately difficult. Dogs don't think like that. Dogs don't do things to piss you off, they do things because they look rewarding. Garbage is awesome to a dog. So get the garbage away from the dog, for her own safety. If she can't get to the garbage, there's no more garbage issues.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

All dogs go through a teen-age stage. Doberman owners "lovingly" call it the Doberteens. What will happen is you're perfect, well trained dog will stop behaving, start ignoring you, start new behaviors that they've never exhibited before. If your girl is 1 then I'm pretty sure this is what's happening. Just be patient and persistent in training and you'll get through it just as many dog owners do. I do want to echo what Amaryllis said about spanking your dog and the "insolent" thing. Please lose this mindset. You'll find that what you do you'll probably see your dog in a new (probably better) light.


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## HowNowBrownCow (Jan 17, 2012)

Unfortunately our apartment is very small, so where we can put the garbage is pretty limited. It does have a lid on it which she figured out how to get off. 
I use the word 'insolent' in the way she's acting, I'm sorry if it came across as thats how I'm treating her, it's the only thing I can think to use to describe her attitude/actions. It's like she doesn't care to listen and wants to do what she wants, like you said patchworkrobot the 'doberteens' is what it seems like to me. 
As far as the swat on the butt goes it's nothing more than taking her to the garbage on the floor/can, telling her 'No' in a firm voice and using about the pressure you would giving someone a high five. I believe in punishment, dogs are prey animals. As a prey animal they understand punishment as well as positive reinforcement. We do both in our home, but only take to swatting when she's been reprimanded several times over the same issue, it's never my number one go to for punishment. I start first with 'No' and then progress to a firmer deeper 'No' and if that doesn't work I swat with another firm 'No.' I've used this technique with her then entire time I've had her (and other past dogs) and never have I had a problem like this. When she first tried chewing on shoes, she got a couple 'no's and after the third time a swat, and she wasn't afraid of me, she also wasn't afraid of the shoes. 
After all that talk of punishment I want to say we love Piper like a child. She's spoiled with babies and toys and lots of love, and eats better than we do. My name actually reflects a nickname we have for her 'Brown Cow.' She has no reason to fear us, we shower her with attention and affection constantly, and have even taken to praising her even more when she does right to help maybe boost her confidence, and help her to in her mind 'please us.'


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

The thing about "punishment" is, if you do not catch them in the actual ACT, then punishing doesn't do what you want it to. So, if you don't catch her in the act of getting into the garbage, but you take her to the trash LATER, she will make this type of connection: "oh, she found this trash on the floor and is raising her voice and swatting, huh, so she always gets mad when she sees trash. Trash must be gross to her."
Now, in the same situation, a human would think: oh, she's showing me the trash, and reprimanding me, so I should stop throwing trash on the floor." 

But, dogs don't make the same type of cognitive connections. If you punish for trash on the floor, she thinks you hate trash. If you catch her in the ACT, and reprimand, THEN she gets the connection that HER putting the trash on the floor is bad. 

Same with shoes, if you don't catch her, she won't make the same connection we humans would make. 
Other dogs may have read your behavior better, or maybe just cared more about pleasing you, and realized more quickly than this dog that they should try everything to make you happy, including not getting into trash. This dog may not be so quick.


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## HowNowBrownCow (Jan 17, 2012)

Thats a good point Doxiemommy. Piper can sometimes be questionable with her intelligence, she can learn but sometimes she has a hard time if you pose a problem to her for her to solve on her own :der:. It's just so frustrating because she's a great dog (normally) and we want to continue to enjoy our time with her, and have fun.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Those two breeds (if that is what she is) lab for sure have reputations (NOT making jabs at someone else's breed here) but from a cattle dog owners POV (one of the toughest breeds of dog there is) if you swatted a cattle dog it would have no effect, it doesn't on Izze (though I only do it in play & only "act" like I am "hitting" her).

I'm dory but I have never owned a dog with a low threshold to pressure/stress, so perhaps someone will chime in who does, good luck.


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## RoughCollie (Mar 7, 2011)

We have this locking trashcan: http://www.amazon.com/simplehuman-5...MS5E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326938021&sr=8-1 .

The dog cannot unlock it.


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## HowNowBrownCow (Jan 17, 2012)

Nothing against your garbage can, or anyone else who chooses to get one or hide it under the sink- so please don't take anyone this personally. :] 

I don't believe that I should have to get a locking garbage can, or hide the garbage can. Not that it's not an option in an extreme circumstance, but if Piper can learn to stay off the couch, in my opinion she can learn that the garbage can is also off limits, including other garbage cans. I'm reasonable that I don't leave garbage bags sitting all over with garbage in them, the can has a lid on it, it's in one spot, and it's never overflowing. I understand dogs are animals, but I don't think thats an expectation thats to high considering her other accomplishments. 

Now, if I had a dog that hasn't been so well behaved such as bad chewing, anxiety, running away etc I would be in complete understanding of doing that. :]


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

By all means, keep doing what you're doing. Your house, your dog. You asked for ideas about why your dog is shrinking away from you. Keep swatting her for crimes committed outside of your presence and keep wondering why your relationship isn't what you want it to be. 

If you have it all figured out, that's great!


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## HowNowBrownCow (Jan 17, 2012)

I never said I have it all figured out. I'm merely responding to your training ideas with ideas of my own and trying to get an idea of where to go with Piper. If I offended you, I'm sorry, but there's no need to jump down my throat because I don't adhere directly to yours/and others advice. I've had a lot of success training both dogs and horses and have merely come on here to find other opinions and ideas.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Dogs aren't prey animals. They're predators.



> but if Piper can learn to stay off the couch, in my opinion she can learn that the garbage can is also off limits


You're making things harder than they have to be, all in the name of pride. I utilize a service dog. That dog is trained to do numerous things, and has to have impeccable manners to be able to do his job.

You know what I can't keep him out of at home if I am not around to supervise?

The garbage.

You know what I do with the garbage can when I'm gone? Take away his access to it.

Can the majority of things be trained? Yes, of course. Is it always WORTH it? No, not really.

Taking the dog to the garbage can and hitting her AFTER the fact does nothing. All you've done is prove to the dog you're unpredictable and something to be feared. Doesn't matter if you believe in punishment. The dog is showing you the results of what your punishment achieved, which is fear. She's not learned a darn thing about staying out of the garbage, only that you're somebody to be afraid of and avoided.

She has quit performing known actions because she fears more punishment, and so it is not worth the effort to try. She didn't lose her confidence. You took it away.



> When she first tried chewing on shoes, she got a couple 'no's and after the third time a swat, and she wasn't afraid of me, she also wasn't afraid of the shoes.


Why even give multiple "no"s? Why is it so hard to get up, say "Ah ah!" TAKE AWAY the shoe, and give her something appropriate to chew on? That's what I'm going through in my house RIGHT now.

It's obnoxious as crap, but not hard to do.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Even the best trained dogs can make mistakes when left with a very tempting treat like what we humans put in the garbage. Everytime she gets in the garbage will just be reinforcing the behaviour because she is getting rewarded with food and the fun of rummaging through it. 

If you are set on not locking the trash up I would teach a really strong leave it command with positive reinforcement. You need to make leaving the trash a more rewarding option than digging through it. You'll need really good treats or something else she finds very rewarding. Until she is 100% on that I would not give her the opportunity to practice the behaviour and reward herself.

If she does make a mistake remember it is your decision to leave the trash where she can get it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If she does make a mistake remember it is your decision to leave the trash where she can get it.


*rings noisy bell* We have a winner!


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

RoughCollie said:


> We have this locking trashcan: http://www.amazon.com/simplehuman-5...MS5E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326938021&sr=8-1 .
> 
> The dog cannot unlock it.


I have this and I love it!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> As far as the swat on the butt goes it's nothing more than taking her to the garbage on the floor/can, telling her 'No' in a firm voice and using about the pressure you would giving someone a high five. I believe in punishment, dogs are prey animals. As a prey animal they understand punishment as well as positive reinforcement. We do both in our home, but only take to swatting when she's been reprimanded several times over the same issue, it's never my number one go to for punishment. I start first with 'No' and then progress to a firmer deeper 'No' and if that doesn't work I swat with another firm 'No.' I've used this technique with her then entire time I've had her (and other past dogs) and never have I had a problem like this. When she first tried chewing on shoes, she got a couple 'no's and after the third time a swat, and she wasn't afraid of me, she also wasn't afraid of the shoes.
> After all that talk of punishment I want to say we love Piper like a child. She's spoiled with babies and toys and lots of love, and eats better than we do. My name actually reflects a nickname we have for her 'Brown Cow.' She has no reason to fear us, we shower her with attention and affection constantly, and have even taken to praising her even more when she does right to help maybe boost her confidence, and help her to in her mind 'please us.'


Dogs are not prey animals. They are predators, but even more so, they are opportunistic scavengers. (So garbage cans are really cool) It occurs to me that Piper may be getting inconsistent messages from you. Sometimes you indulge her and spoil her for existing. Sometimes you hit. And, as Dr. Phil says "How's that workin for ya?" I would find a place to make the garbage a non-issue (even in a small apt. I bet you can come up with something) and focus on giving a clearer message. I would teach a "leave-it" so you can tell her what you want without shouting "NO" and hitting. No leaves a vacuum. Don't do this, but do what instead? Concentrate on teaching her what to do instead. If she does what you want, she gets attention, treats, etc. But she doesn't get adoration for simply breathing. That devalues your importance, and the importance of the reinforcers you give her. If she chooses to walk off, let it be. Make it a point to "enjoy" her treat or play a game she's not part of. Have fun training your imaginary dog. (I had one student who named her invisible dog "Polly Pretend" and would go through the full monty of working the dog, praising and treating her while the real dog watched. But don't beg her to play. Give it time and manage instead of punish. But make your reinforcement meaningful, not given as freely.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> Thats a good point Doxiemommy. Piper can sometimes be questionable with her intelligence, she can learn but sometimes she has a hard time if you pose a problem to her for her to solve on her own :der:. It's just so frustrating because she's a great dog (normally) and we want to continue to enjoy our time with her, and have fun.


Mixing positive reinforcement and positive punishment can make a dog hesitant to solve problems. They know that if they make a wrong choice it can turn out badly.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Has she had any other changes lately? Eating, drinking, is she in heat or spayed? Seen a vet since this started?

Most dogs change as they get to teen started. I seriously doubt it has been caused by a swat on the rear.
I agree with the OP about the dogs should not get into trash. Though a swat after the fact will not work.
I would try the leave it command. Set the bag out on the floor, walk her by it on lead, when she shows interest, saw leave it, walk away as you reward with good treats, over and over and over.be certain she can't grab a bite, so she doesn't self reward. She will get it with time and patience.


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## RoughCollie (Mar 7, 2011)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> I don't believe that I should have to get a locking garbage can, or hide the garbage can.


No, of course you shouldn't have to.

I have one because there are things in the trash that are harmful to dogs. 

I look at it this way. If I had a pool and a preschooler, I would not expect the child to stay out of the pool, even if s/he had been thoroughly trained not to go near the pool unless I were there. 

Swimming pools are an attractive nuisance. This means they, by their nature, might attract children into a dangerous situation. This is why pool owners, whether or not they have children, are required by law to have a fenced pool with a locked gate. Children are impulsive and do not have the brain development or the foresight and experience to anticipate the danger a pool poses to them.

Similarly, I believe that trash cans are attractive nuisances to dogs. By their nature they might attract a dog into a dangerous situation. This is why I have a trash can that locks. I do not want my dog to eat the raisins or grapes or chocolate or medications or cooked bones that I have thrown away. If a broken glass or a light bulb is thrown away, I do not want him to be cut if he rummages through the trash.

I can train my dog to stay out of the trash when I am in his vicinity. I would not trust him to do so if he were alone or if my kids or husband were around but not paying attention to him. That trash can is just too much of a temptation to him because of his great sense of smell and because what smells rotten to a person often smells wonderful to a dog. It is an attractive nuisance, and he deserves to be protected from the dangers he cannot anticipate simply because he is a dog.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

There is a dog buried next door. She died by choking on a chicken bone that she got out of the garbage. I hope you don't come to something like that.


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## HowNowBrownCow (Jan 17, 2012)

Im sorry I stand corrected I meant that dogs are in fact predators, and opportunistic scavangers- not prey! Lol 

I see the point of spanking after the fact, and it's one that I should have known. But she's still going to continue to be trained to leave the garbage alone. I'm not going to spank her after the fact anymore, and I'll try the method of walking her by the garbage and rewarding for leaving it alone. She's always been low on confidence since I adopted her, but never to this point. 

I see a lot of suggestions for complicating my life to make the dogs life easier.. Dog owners should not have to hide their shoes, they shouldn't have to hide the garbage. But that's just my opinion.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

But why would you risk her ingesting something dangerous??? I just don't understand. 

I have smaller dogs (20-30lbs) and a heavier trashcan with a lid. Similar to the one linked on this thread already, but it doesn't lock. They've never shown interest in the can, but if they ever did, there is no way they can even get anything out of it (which is fine by me). Maybe if you just switched to a different type of can it might help. 

If this is the only thing stopping her from being a "great dog" in your eyes, why not just do something easy to fix it so you can move on with her training and work on building her confidence?


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> I see a lot of suggestions for complicating my life to make the dogs life easier.. Dog owners should not have to hide their shoes, they shouldn't have to hide the garbage. But that's just my opinion.


Well, here's my take on that: when you are FIRST training a dog, it is very helpful to remove temptations from them, so that they NEVER get into the habit of whatever the bad behavior is in the FIRST PLACE. If you can accomplish that,you don't have the behavior problems in the first place.

It's kind of the same thing as baby proofing your home. You would NEVER leave all sorts of things laying around for a toddler to get into. People with toddlers put cabinet locks on, they pick up things out of the baby's reach, put electrical outlet covers on, etc. Now, of course, in the FUTURE you want a well behaved child, who will follow the rules, and not get into things they're not supposed to. But, in order to protect them, and teach them, you limit what they have access to.

I think limiting things a dog has access to can be looked at differently than "making your life more complicated to make the dog's life easier". It's a way of making the dog successful. You're just setting him up to be successful. 

When our dogs were puppies every one of them had a fascination with toilet paper. We like to leave the bathroom door open when no one's in there because we live in a small cottage, really drafty, and in cold weather the bathroom gets super cold with the door shut. Anyway, we came home several times to shredded toilet paper everywhere. Finally, we decided to shut the door. It stopped the problem, obviously. And, for months, that's how it went.

Now that our dogs are 2 and 3 years old, we can leave the door open again, no worries, they have grown out of their fascination with toilet paper. Maybe it's partially due to their not being puppies anymore, or because they were denied access for so long that they got out of the habit, and don't even consider it an option anymore.

Oh, and the difference between learning to stay off the couch, and learning to leave the trash alone: the trash is MUCH more interesting and tempting to a dog, because of the smells, and the possibility of tasty things. Getting into the trash is what's called a "self rewarding behavior" because the behavior of getting into the trash is not just a BEHAVIOR, it's also it's own REWARD, because it's fun, smells good, and there are probably tasty things to try. No matter how you try, some dogs are just so curious, that a self rewarding behavior is too tempting to NOT do, especially when there are no humans there to redirect or remind you.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

doxiemommy said:


> Well, here's my take on that: when you are FIRST training a dog, it is very helpful to remove temptations from them, so that they NEVER get into the habit of whatever the bad behavior is in the FIRST PLACE. If you can accomplish that,you don't have the behavior problems in the first place.
> 
> It's kind of the same thing as baby proofing your home. You would NEVER leave all sorts of things laying around for a toddler to get into. People with toddlers put cabinet locks on, they pick up things out of the baby's reach, put electrical outlet covers on, etc. Now, of course, in the FUTURE you want a well behaved child, who will follow the rules, and not get into things they're not supposed to. But, in order to protect them, and teach them, you limit what they have access to.
> 
> ...



I 100% agree on all of this. Using the example of raising children is very good. You "train" and "protect" at the same time. As an example, I was taught to swim as a small child but that didn't mean my parents left me unattended by a pool. And just like dogs, even good "training" can't protect against everything, it just helps reduce the damage usually (as in, I still managed to ride my bike into the deep end of a pool in the winter but was able to get to the surface on my own). 

It is really simple-- prevent the bad behaviors, reward for good behaviors and never physically punish for anything. Verbally punish ONLY for something you actually catch the dog in the act of doing. As far as the safety isse for something like the trash, the old adage of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" is true. If your dog gets into something dangerous in the trash, at best you're looking at several hundred dollars in vet bills and at worst, a dead dog. 

From the dog's perspective, life with you is very confusing. Think of it like a small child who is adopted from another country and doesn't speak English. She can follow your example, she starts to learn English words, but there are many areas where verbal communication is useless. The child gets into something she shouldn't, say the bathroom cabinet, so she gets a spanking. IF she got the spanking while actually getting into trouble, she MIGHT connect the two. But if you just walk her by the cabinet, point at it and spank her, she learns nothing except that you aren't trustworthy and you might hit if for just following you. You have to put child locks on cabinets and PREVENT failure while teaching her what you DO want and building the English vocabulary (aka building the training "vocabulary")

If you walk a dog over to the trash and swat him, you can easily teach the dog not to walk with you. After all, that is what got him hit, right? That was the action immediately proceeding the physical punishment.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I see a lot of suggestions for complicating my life to make the dogs life easier


I didn't know that picking things up was complicated.

Training my SD....that was complicated. Putting the garbage can outside? Not so much.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> Nothing against your garbage can, or anyone else who chooses to get one or hide it under the sink- so please don't take anyone this personally. :]
> 
> I don't believe that I should have to get a locking garbage can, or hide the garbage can. Not that it's not an option in an extreme circumstance, but if Piper can learn to stay off the couch, in my opinion she can learn that the garbage can is also off limits, including other garbage cans. I'm reasonable that I don't leave garbage bags sitting all over with garbage in them, the can has a lid on it, it's in one spot, and it's never overflowing. I understand dogs are animals, but I don't think thats an expectation thats to high considering her other accomplishments.
> 
> Now, if I had a dog that hasn't been so well behaved such as bad chewing, anxiety, running away etc I would be in complete understanding of doing that. :]


Getting into the trash is a self rewarding behavior. The only way to prevent it, is to NEVER give her the opportunity to get into the trash. So leaving it where she can get into it when you aren't home, will NEVER teach her NOT to get into it. Put the trash can in a laundry rm behind a closed door when you aren't home, buy a locking can, or hide it under the sink. Don't set your dog up for failure.

As mentioned, stop swatting her. She is starting to not trust you because of it.

You might also want a vet check to check blood. A hyperactive thyroid can cause ravanous hunger that may make a dog try to get into trash and be more anxious.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> I see a lot of suggestions for complicating my life to make the dogs life easier.. Dog owners should not have to hide their shoes, they shouldn't have to hide the garbage. But that's just my opinion.


Is it easier for YOU to clean up garbage and punish your dog every day than to just get a can with a locking lid or put it in a cabinet?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> Thats a good point Doxiemommy. Piper can sometimes be questionable with her intelligence, she can learn but sometimes she has a hard time if you pose a problem to her for her to solve on her own :der:. It's just so frustrating because she's a great dog (normally) and we want to continue to enjoy our time with her, and have fun.


How now>> I can kind of relate, my younger dog is... Well putting it bluntly, she is a little slow when it comes to not don't something she isn't supposed to do, sometimes I get irritated with her bc she is very "high maintance" in the fact that she always has to be managed & she can't be trusted to "stay around" off leash if there is no fence or to stay out of things she isn't supposed to do. How do I know she knows? Bc I have spent a lot of time patiently making sure she knows. Now that she is 1 1/2 now & she is getting better (for about 6 mos I swear she like .... Forgot everything she ever knew lol, it was wired bc I have never experienced "teenage" after a yr that wasn't all ready there. But Jo was a great puppy, but after she turned a yr it was like someone abducted my dog & replaced her & not for the better :/.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> Thats a good point Doxiemommy. Piper can sometimes be questionable with her intelligence, she can learn but sometimes she has a hard time if you pose a problem to her for her to solve on her own :der:. It's just so frustrating because she's a great dog (normally) and we want to continue to enjoy our time with her, and have fun.


It's more than a good point. You should never punish a dog for an action that the dog isn't committing in that instant, ever. And it isn't a sure thing the dog will learn what the punishment was for even when punished in the act. Which is why so many people do not punish at all, but only use positive rewards. It is much harder to screw up.

Your question above about the fear sounds so strange, but I would have to go with the folks who said you've probably got her very confused and thinking your a random mean punishing person and she can't trust you to some degree.

Good part is it's not permanent, unless you keep doing whatever it is your doing to cause that fear.

I use a trash can with spring loaded lid that uses a foot pedal to open, never had an issue with the dogs getting in it, but they get a "psst!" warning every time I see a nose sniffing towards it too.

There's a lot of things one "shouldn't" have to do, but that's life, and we have to do em anyway.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I should't have to remind my students to put their iPods away when class starts. I shouldn't have to put the seat back down after my boyfriend uses the toilet. My mom shouldn't have had to call my friends to confirm that an adult would be home when I went for sleepovers as a kid. My dad shouldn't have had to use a kitchen towel to beat out the fire I started on the living room rug when I was eight years old and wanted to see how close I could get a paper towel to a candle flame.

The truth is that, regardless of training, animals do stupid stuff. Your dog's stupid thing is getting into the trash. It would be my dogs', too, except that my trashcan lives behind a cabinet door under the kitchen sink. I like this location because not only is it safe from the dogs (and the dogs safe from it), but I don't have to look at the kitchen trash sitting out in the middle of the room. I live in a 700 sq ft house, so putting it under the sink also gives me that much more floor space.

So, yes, keep training your dog not to get into the trash while you're around to supervise, but put the trash somewhere else when you're not. And do realize that, no matter how well behaved the dog is around the trash when you're home, there's no way to guarantee she'll behave the same way when you're gone.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> Im sorry I stand corrected I meant that dogs are in fact predators, and opportunistic scavangers- not prey! Lol
> 
> I see the point of spanking after the fact, and it's one that I should have known. But she's still going to continue to be trained to leave the garbage alone. I'm not going to spank her after the fact anymore, and I'll try the method of walking her by the garbage and rewarding for leaving it alone. She's always been low on confidence since I adopted her, but never to this point.
> 
> I see a lot of suggestions for complicating my life to make the dogs life easier.. Dog owners should not have to hide their shoes, they shouldn't have to hide the garbage. But that's just my opinion.


There are lots of things we may feel we "shouldn't" have to do. But that doesn't take into consideration the actual fact of owning a dog, and what the dog needs to know. If your dog gets in the garbage, cleaning up is more complicated and annoying than getting a locking container or simply putting the garbage behind a closed door. If your dog eats your expensive favorite shoes, that is a lot more costly and annoying than simply remembering to put the shoes away. Training dogs - especially the earlier stages is at least 60% management so the dog can't self-reinforce unwanted. So, if you want to continue to have to clean up messes and be angry with your dog, by all means, think of all the things you "shouldn't have to do". On the other hand, if you want to work through these problems, think about what you need to do to help the dog (i.e. not leave temptation in her way when you aren't in a position to do anything about it) Dogs do the right thing because they've been taught what is expected. Dogs don't do the right thing out of gratitude for the fact that we give them a home, food, and affection.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

You're utterly frustrated with your dog and I'm utterly frustrated with you. Dogs can get very sick, even die, from eating trash. I can't imagine anyone having a trash digger who won't pick up the trash can, won't even think of purchasing the locking trash can. I sincerely hope nothing ever happens to your dog.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Is it easier for YOU to clean up garbage and punish your dog every day than to just get a can with a locking lid or put it in a cabinet?


What she said!!!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

You're alternative would be to crate your dog so she can't get into the trash. The last time my girl got into the trash (which my daughter carelessly left where she could get it) it cost me 500.00 in vet bills and I was LUCKY it was only paper she had eaten and that it passed without needing surgery. 

The fact is our trash cans are FILLED with yummy stuff, leftoever food we throw away, grease soaked paper, and feminine hygene items. These are high value rewards for our tamed little (or not so little) scavengers.

LOCK UP YOUR TRASH, CRATE YOUR DOG or end up paying out some serious vet bills.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Well, I'm not going to repeat all that everyone else said..let's just say I agree wholeheartedly.

To add: Your dog is in the throes of adolescence, many breeds take until they are two or three years old (if not longer) to mature. During this period they often go through another chewing stage and tend to seem to 'lose their training' or be not responsive to trained commands..there is a heck of a lot of brain development and hormonal changes going on in there and this can disturb their focusing abilities, impulse control and decision making...yes, just like human teenagers. Dogs also go through at least three fear periods at different times. Usually 7 weeks-9 weeks, 4 months to six months and again at around a year or year and a half. This means during these periods they are easily sent in to fight/flight by things that they earlier seemed fine with. Much of the cowering etc behaviour could be linked to this..but it's important for YOU to realize that during these periods you can make bad things STICK (hence not recommending punishment.)

I also find it telling that she was from a hoarding situation and that you can't see how that may have made her more likely to scavenge as the competition for food in these situations is fierce.

Try understanding your dog, instead of just trying to control her. It puts you both at a distinct disadvantage..but she is the one who pays.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

My trash is where the dogs can't get to it, my shoes no big deal, my old female is coming 10 yrs old & is over "that", the young dog is crated due to that very prob of not trusting her, & I may never be able to trust her but hey, that's what crates Are for . 

I think a crate or a puppy proofed room while you are gone is most appropriate.


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

You brought the dog over to the trash can and swatted her on the rear. 

Did the dog CHOOSE to go to the trash can or did you get her to go to it? You got her to go to it. So she did what you asked and then you punished her for it. So why would she think that getting into the trash can is what got her in trouble? She is confused, she did what you asked and got swatted. Now how can she trust you? Is she supposed to do what you ask in the future and get swatted again or will she be safe this time? What does she do? Why did she get swatted? She thought she was being good because she was obeying. Maybe it's best to hide and not take her chances with getting swatted again.

I can't claim to know how a dog feels or to read their thoughts but it's pretty safe to assume that's along her line of thought. The swat may not have hurt physically, but it could have hurt psychologically. Dogs are a lot smarter and more emotional than we give them credit for.

She also does sound soft, in that she was so well behaved and eager to please and be obedient until now when she got punished for it.

You need to work on rebuilding your relationship and stop punishing her for your mistakes. You take a dog into your house, it's YOUR responsibility to keep them safe. Ever heard of negligence? Would you leave rat poison next to a child? Probably not. So why would you leash trash that is available to her? Kids and animals get into stuff. It's their nature. Don't like it? Don't have kids or animals. 

It doesn't make sense to swat a dog. Let me explain it this way. A bully makes fun of you, so you punch the bully. Your parents find out and spank you. Are you thinking about your actions or are you thinking about the spanking? Did the spanking teach you an alternative, acceptable behavior if you find yourself in a situation where you're being bullied again? No. It's your parents job to teach you how you should have handled the situation and if they didn't, they have no right to punish you for what you don't know. And if they tried to teach you and you didn't understand, then they still have no right to punish you for their subpar parenting. And if your parents punish but don't give you positive reinforcement for not getting into more fights, are you likely to still get into fights but be more careful about them not finding out? Why do you owe it to them to not get into fights, what do you gain by complying with their request?


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

I have to put my 2 cents worth in here. Please don't have children...I shudder to think how you would treat them or how you would expect them to behave.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

What is wrong with teaching the dog to stay out of the trash? Or a child for that matter? I don't agree with how the OP attempted to correct in the beginning, but there are ways to teach dogs to not tear up trash, furniture, etc. I won't leave a pup unattended until trained, but after that I can leave three malinois and one Dutch shepherd, working on two Dutch shepherds, alone and not lock up the garbage or move the couch out.
I can understand not letting a toddler eat garbage, yet at what point do you teach the child no?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

juliemule said:


> What is wrong with teaching the dog to stay out of the trash? Or a child for that matter? I don't agree with how the OP attempted to correct in the beginning, but there are ways to teach dogs to not tear up trash, furniture, etc. I won't leave a pup unattended until trained, but after that I can leave three malinois and one Dutch shepherd, working on two Dutch shepherds, alone and not lock up the garbage or move the couch out.
> I can understand not letting a toddler eat garbage, yet at what point do you teach the child no?



Nothing wrong with teaching a dog to stay out of the garbage. But, as you say, you don't leave a pup unattended until trained. What is dim is giving the dog unlimited access to stuff which should be off limits because you think you shouldn't have to be bothered with management.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Nothing wrong with teaching a dog to stay out of the garbage. But, as you say, you don't leave a pup unattended until trained. What is dim is giving the dog unlimited access to stuff which should be off limits because you think you shouldn't have to be bothered with management.


Thank you. I was beginning to get the impression everyone just hid the trash, shoes, whatever, and didn't bother to ever train to leave it.


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## HowNowBrownCow (Jan 17, 2012)

I want to thank everyone that gave me some good advice, to those of you who seem to think I'm some sort of horrible dog owner, and therefore a horrible person- please feel free to shove your self arrogance up some deep dark place.

I guess I didn't clarify about getting into the garbage and therefore it's been blown way out of proportion. She doesn't get in the trash every time I turn my back, or leave the room, or go check the mail for that matter. As a matter of fact she hasn't gotten into it since I started this thread, or for several days prior. Even more on point, thats not the problem I was asking help for. Please, feel free to reread my first post, and maybe more understanding will come. 

I undertstand the point about not spanking if you don't catch them in the act- problem fixed. I hope this helps her to get some confidence back, we're also working more on NILIF. I did it already more so than my boyfriend, but I also had areas to improve, so we're both taking steps with that. 

Thanks again to everyone for your help and suggestions.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

juliemule said:


> What is wrong with teaching the dog to stay out of the trash? Or a child for that matter? I don't agree with how the OP attempted to correct in the beginning, but there are ways to teach dogs to not tear up trash, furniture, etc. I won't leave a pup unattended until trained, but after that I can leave three malinois and one Dutch shepherd, working on two Dutch shepherds, alone and not lock up the garbage or move the couch out.
> I can understand not letting a toddler eat garbage, yet at what point do you teach the child no?


There is nothing wrong with teaching a dog to stay out of the trash but while they're learning, they can get seriously hurt or die because of what they eat. You bring up kids....do you have kids? Did you ever pick anything up, put those plugs in outlets so they don't get zapped, whatever, so the kid doesn't get hurt? As far as kids eating trash, that's probably not common but it sure is to try to grab stuff on tables, put stuff in outlets etc


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> There is nothing wrong with teaching a dog to stay out of the trash but while they're learning, they can get seriously hurt or die because of what they eat. You bring up kids....do you have kids? Did you ever pick anything up, put those plugs in outlets so they don't get zapped, whatever, so the kid doesn't get hurt? As far as kids eating trash, that's probably not common but it sure is to try to grab stuff on tables, put stuff in outlets etc


Actually kids were brought up -n the post before mine. Yes I have a seventeen year old, who now knows the difference in right and wrong, and I don't hide the trash from. Lol, although a crate has crossed my mind!

I understand puppy proofing, but I teach mine early that some things are off limits.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

The problem with the OP is that he/she just doesn't understand that for some dogs...well, they just don't stay out of it.  I had a dog that no matter what I did, she got in the trash...kitchen and bathroom. She weighed 10# and I had a tall kitchen trash can. I also lived in a small apartment. She is the only dog who got in the trash. I have had 6 since she died...NONE have bothered the trash.

My comment about kids is the OP's comment about "I see a lot of suggestions for complicating MY life to make the dogs life easier" and for dog lovers, that just went against the grain. Sometimes you have to make adjustments for your pet, just like you do for a child. Some kids take longer to "get it" just like dogs.

Hopefully, this will all work out and the dog will stay out of the trash.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Honestly I always keep the garbage out of reach, even though I do train a Leave It. Not worth the consequences if they should screw up and give in to temptation. I screw up and give in to temptation sometimes, I don't expect them to never do it. Not the hill I want to die on.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> The problem with the OP is that he/she just doesn't understand that for some dogs...well, they just don't stay out of it. I had a dog that no matter what I did, she got in the trash...kitchen and bathroom. She weighed 10# and I had a tall kitchen trash can. I also lived in a small apartment. She is the only dog who got in the trash. I have had 6 since she died...NONE have bothered the trash.
> 
> My comment about kids is the OP's comment about "I see a lot of suggestions for complicating MY life to make the dogs life easier" and for dog lovers, that just went against the grain. Sometimes you have to make adjustments for your pet, just like you do for a child. Some kids take longer to "get it" just like dogs.
> 
> Hopefully, this will all work out and the dog will stay out of the trash.


I understand that, I have one who literally will chew the walls. Though I admit I have not worked much in the house with her, she stays out mostly. She was two when she came her from a kennel, her only toy was a metal for pan, not even a blanket or bedding to lay on. I'm more understanding with her I guess.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

juliemule said:


> Actually kids were brought up -n the post before mine. Yes I have a seventeen year old, who now knows the difference in right and wrong, and I don't hide the trash from. Lol, although a crate has crossed my mind!
> 
> I understand puppy proofing, but I teach mine early that some things are off limits.


 I can tell you from experience that there are some dogs that don't learn as quickly and some just don't learn. I have one who is a toilet paper/kleenex eater. I'm told if he gets one, it's probably not going to hurt him. If he gets into my trash, with opened cans, garlic, onion, cooked bones, that can hurt or kill him. I don't really care what the op of this thread does with her dog. It sounds, to me, like she wants the easy fix and doesn't want to manage the situation. Fine by me, it's not my dog that may get hurt by going into the trash. I'd just like possible lurkers to know that their dog can be harmed by leaving it out; train if you'd like, when you're home but if you have a trash eater, it's not the smartest thing to do.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> I can tell you from experience that there are some dogs that don't learn as quickly and some just don't learn. I have one who is a toilet paper/kleenex eater. I'm told if he gets one, it's probably not going to hurt him. If he gets into my trash, with opened cans, garlic, onion, cooked bones, that can hurt or kill him. I don't really care what the op of this thread does with her dog. It sounds, to me, like she wants the easy fix and doesn't want to manage the situation. Fine by me, it's not my dog that may get hurt by going into the trash. I'd just like possible lurkers to know that their dog can be harmed by leaving it out; train if you'd like, when you're home but if you have a trash eater, it's not the smartest thing to do.


I have had many many dogs, and never had one that couldnt be trained basics. have had very difficult dogs, and ones that I would not trust completely when left alone. One mentioned earlier, has come a long way, as she used to destroy anything in sight, but she has really learned to stop most of that behavior. Then when left alone, its right back to being Ms. Pacman lol


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> I can tell you from experience that there are some dogs that don't learn as quickly and some just don't learn. I have one who is a toilet paper/kleenex eater. I'm told if he gets one, it's probably not going to hurt him. If he gets into my trash, with opened cans, garlic, onion, cooked bones, that can hurt or kill him. I don't really care what the op of this thread does with her dog. It sounds, to me, like she wants the easy fix and doesn't want to manage the situation. Fine by me, it's not my dog that may get hurt by going into the trash. I'd just like possible lurkers to know that their dog can be harmed by leaving it out; train if you'd like, when you're home but if you have a trash eater, it's not the smartest thing to do.


Josefina is like that .... When I am home she is outside, when I am gone, she is crated bc i like my things intact & my trash left where it belongs lol. I shutter to think what I would come home to if I left her out ... Eek! I just can't imagine why someone would rather pick up trash that is all over the house & possibly have to pay a large get bill (if he got into something) then manage the dog.

Also, forgive me for saying, but i couldn't help noticing that there is a lot of banning going on lately :/ .


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I'm lucky, Caeda has never tried to tip the garbage can (from day one plastic bags have wigged her out), there have been a couple of times though that she's sniffed around the opening, usually right after we've put something in there that smells stinky good. I'm now in the habit of spraying lysol on the fresher stuff in the garbage, she doesn't like the pungent chemical smell I think so she doesn't show interest in it, possibly because I've ruined the yummy smell. If she ever did actually dig in it I wouldn't spray it, I'd lock it up. 

One thing that I would suggest for the garbage can training is this: "Solving Counter Surfing" just modify the general concept to the garbage can instead of tables and counters. 

Lock up your real garbage for a long while....just as part of the training, proof with an empty garbage can for a while, maybe add something to the can later that smells yummy but isn't harmful (just in case it gets in there!). Eventually you might be able to go back to a "normal" garbage can if you manage a long period (weeks or months) without any "dumpster dives". I'm sure others have specific techniques they can share that might be better....this is just my suggestion. 

I used this kind of thing with the cat's food bowls, though I admittedly can't leave her all day with them, and they're now in a different room, if I screw up and leave it somewhere she can get it the food is generally safe for a little while. I think if I had put more work in I would be able to leave it all day, but I admit, I'm lazy and other training exercises were the priority. I shouldn't have to feed the cats in the bedroom, but I do because I just didn't put in the work to do otherwise, so that's life I guess  it may be annoying, but I've learned some concessions are just part of having the pleasure of a dog around!


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## RoughCollie (Mar 7, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> One thing that I would suggest for the garbage can training is this: "Solving Counter Surfing" just modify the general concept to the garbage can instead of tables and counters.


Thank you for posting this! Aidan is a determined counter and table surfer. I'm going to try this.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

HowNowBrownCow said:


> I want to thank everyone that gave me some good advice, to those of you who seem to think I'm some sort of horrible dog owner, and therefore a horrible person- please feel free to shove your self arrogance up some deep dark place.
> 
> I guess I didn't clarify about getting into the garbage and therefore it's been blown way out of proportion. She doesn't get in the trash every time I turn my back, or leave the room, or go check the mail for that matter. As a matter of fact she hasn't gotten into it since I started this thread, or for several days prior. Even more on point, thats not the problem I was asking help for. Please, feel free to reread my first post, and maybe more understanding will come.
> 
> ...


Best to limit spanking to very extreme transgressions even if you do catch the dog in the act. You really shouldn't need more than a firm voice to convey your displeasure. That is the problem with punishments, it can be real tricky making sure the dog connects the crime to the punishment, or doesn't and just thinks your a sadistic jerk that can lash out suddenly at any time for no reason. That's why teaching alternate behaviors and such with positive reinforcement is seen as better because it's harder to screw up and end up with a dog that cowers from you, something I can't stand in a dog. I usually break a dog of cowering pretty quickly though. I'm the only person my sisters dog doesn't cower from and I only see that dog 2-3 times a year.

Hope doesn't get the smite from the hand of her god unless she puts teeth to someone or something in anger that she shouldn't. Dual purpose, one to instantly divert attention from whatever it is that is going to get hurt badly and 100% onto me right now, and to impress the point in no uncertain terms that it was very very bad decision to use those teeth that should never be repeated.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

For goodness sake just move the garbage for the moment and train the dog to stay away. It's a _dog_.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

I had a very clever GSD who took getting into the garbage to a whole new level. She would open the cupboard the trash was in and get into it (the trash had long since moved to the cupboard LOL). We put the trash in a large cupboard drawer. She figured out how to open the drawer. We got a childproof latch and figured problem solved. She figured out the childproof latch. And the one we got after that when we moved the trash back to the cupboard. We ended up having to use a tight rubberband to hold the two cupboard's door knobs closed. She'd still occasionally manage to get into the cupboard. So we had to put a chair in front of the cupboard and use an even tighter rubber band. That finally did the trick and we no longer came home to raided garbage. During all this, I never got mad at her for getting in the garbage. She was after all, just a dog being a dog  And considering it only happened when no one was home, it wouldn't have done much good anyway. I never thought that "I shouldn't have to do this". I thought "this sure is a smart dog!". Now that dog is gone and I still fondly remember having to outsmart her with the trash...and failing to do so. She was good dog, very well trained.

Sometimes, the problem is your perspective. Having a dog, in itself means complicating your life. Dogs are very inconvenient. It's inconvenient to move the trash but it's also inconvenient to continue cleaning up the mess she makes while she continues to self reward for getting into the trash when your gone. At a year old, most of my dogs don't have full access to the house when no one is home. That tends to be setting them up to learn things you'd rather they didn't. Things like getting into the trash is fun  If you don't want to put your trash can away, perhaps your dog could be crated when you aren't home?

As for the fear issues, is she spayed? If not and she's thinking of coming in season for the first time, that could be contributing to her being extra sensitive. But I do think that your punishment after the fact may have made her distrustful. She sound like she is offering appeasement behaviors. Maybe some nice long walks, sitting on the floor and giving her treats for interactive behaviors such as approaching, touching, tail wagging, etc, NILIF and you acting normal (instead of acting weird because she's acting weird, which many people do) will help her regain some of her confidence in you. And next time you come home to find the trash everywhere, remember that she's just being a dog and you have decided to continue to leave the trash where she can get it.


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