# Just.. walk nicely on a leash.. please..



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Alright.. I've about had it. "We" have yet to figure out how to correctly communicate so that there is no pulling on our walks. We've been working on this since puppyhood and I have been painfully consistent. 

First, we used the stop every time we pull method. We did this for a few months with no progress. She just does not care. Then we basically did a version of penalty yards for a few months. We DID have IMPROVEMENT. She will hug the very end of the leash, then pull lightly instead of flat out yank. 

When that wasn't enough, we added in the sitting from kikopup's one video. Every time she would pull, we stop, move backward (she knows how to give into leash pressure) and then she has to sit and look at me for a few seconds before we move again. If she continues to offend, the sit will happen longer next time. I've been doing this method for a few months now too. 

She still won't quit pulling. I can't walk for more than 10 seconds without her hugging the end of the line and gently pulling. I've clicked and treated every time she has it right. I'm tired of giving her treats just for her to take it then go back to pulling as soon as she's tired of treats. (not only that, the reward of walking is more important to her than the treats). I just want to walk dangit. I've been trying so hard and this dog is SOO stubborn in this area. She doesn't get that stopping is a punishment. She's just happy to be out and will patiently wait to start again. 

She knows what I want from her.. I've rewarded it and "punished" the incorrect a million times over. I've considered a no-pull but I really want her to actually learn to walk correctly on a leash. Ugh teenagers.  Just.. advices please..


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Do you do turns? Before she hits the end of the leash, turn and make sure to call her name or give a cue otherwise use some leash pressure if she does hit the end of the line. Drop the treats. You're past that. Stick with verbal praise. If you use a short line, try a longer line. Practice this in a secure area so you get the hang of it. I always say just turn the hell out of the turn. Turn fast!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mgdI7zLdGw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOl2BtH5vLE

Try to look past the prong if you are against it. It is the concept of the turn and your timing.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Have you considered a front clip harness? The problem with training is it depends on the skill of the trainer. No offense, most people aren't Emily larlham. (Kikopup)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Is it a problem if she's not pulling hard? Honestly, that would be good enough for me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I've had pretty good luck with MOST of my dogs is not to try to teach them not to pull, but to teach them where I want them to walk. It's a modified, loose, sort of heeling behavior I suppose. "Don't do that thing!" doesn't work well with my dogs for anything, and I think in large part it's because I'm not good at teaching that. I am pretty good at being specific and getting specific behaviours of them, which means 'YES! WALK THERE!" is easier. It's still mostly just repetition and various other methods -stop, call the dog back, restarts, mark every step they stay with me then every two, give a "NOPE" and stay in place when they get out of that zone and starting all over.

But it's worked for me. Thud took about 10 years longer than others to get it (he had it as a puppy, lost it, and only recently got it back) and it won't hold with Thud in the face of things like cats and squirrels, but he knows the deal now. 

I think for a lot of dogs they just don't really GET what they are doing - like they don't make the connection between leash pressure and stopping/penalty yards, whatever. So trying to use it to get through to the dog that 'I don't want this thing' doesn't work. So changing what you're trying to teach (stay here, the leash is just to keep hold of you) seems to help. You can't use the WHOLE 6 feet of leash that way because it's too big and general, but you should be able to get her walking beside, just in front, just behind (individually or together) with patience.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Once I trained LLW off leash in the back yard the dogs FINALLY got it. Sassy, my teacher dog, was all oh that's what you want why didn't you tell me. Once they were reasonably good on a short leash went to a flexi and all of us were happy. If need be call the dogs to me but they had enough time to really sniff and walk at their own pace. Walking at my pace has to be exhausting, I know I get a horrible backache if walking with a slow poke.

I can just walk in the street as this is a quiet neighborhood if dog cannot walk nicely. Usually that works as the dogs mostly pull to get to sniffy spots and the street hasn't any good sniffs. 

I walked Ginger in circles for a while in the street because she was just so excited to be out and about. I moved forward if there was no pressure on the leash so we were making spirals as we moved along. Interesting experiment.


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## JTurner (May 19, 2013)

You and your dog can take up caniX where pulling is a good thing . In all seriousness, my dog is almost 2 years old and he still pulls - we have had the same issue. It takes us about a mile before he finally starts to get the hang of the no pull idea. Actually, we have begun training in caniX! It is a lot of fun, but not common at all in the states.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Hector4 said:


> Do you do turns? Before she hits the end of the leash, turn and make sure to call her name or give a cue otherwise use some leash pressure if she does hit the end of the line. Drop the treats. You're past that. Stick with verbal praise. If you use a short line, try a longer line. Practice this in a secure area so you get the hang of it. I always say just turn the hell out of the turn. Turn fast!


I have not tried turns the way your videos show. I can give that a shot. I'll be turning some serious circles though!



Amaryllis said:


> Have you considered a front clip harness? The problem with training is it depends on the skill of the trainer. No offense, most people aren't Emily larlham. (Kikopup)


The only reasons I haven't jumped into a harness is because I've heard they can alter a dogs gait and I want a more permanent fix. No offense taken. I'm not a newbie to dog training at all, but I'm definitely still learning. 



Willowy said:


> Is it a problem if she's not pulling hard? Honestly, that would be good enough for me.


If I let her get away with some, she will take it and run. I have a very smart dog on my hands that does not desire to please me on walks. Also, she is reactive to some things so I need a little more control. 



CptJack said:


> I've had pretty good luck with MOST of my dogs is not to try to teach them not to pull, but to teach them where I want them to walk. It's a modified, loose, sort of heeling behavior I suppose. "Don't do that thing!" doesn't work well with my dogs for anything, and I think in large part it's because I'm not good at teaching that. I am pretty good at being specific and getting specific behaviours of them, which means 'YES! WALK THERE!" is easier. It's still mostly just repetition and various other methods -stop, call the dog back, restarts, mark every step they stay with me then every two, give a "NOPE" and stay in place when they get out of that zone and starting all over.
> 
> But it's worked for me. Thud took about 10 years longer than others to get it (he had it as a puppy, lost it, and only recently got it back) and it won't hold with Thud in the face of things like cats and squirrels, but he knows the deal now.
> 
> I think for a lot of dogs they just don't really GET what they are doing - like they don't make the connection between leash pressure and stopping/penalty yards, whatever. So trying to use it to get through to the dog that 'I don't want this thing' doesn't work. So changing what you're trying to teach (stay here, the leash is just to keep hold of you) seems to help. You can't use the WHOLE 6 feet of leash that way because it's too big and general, but you should be able to get her walking beside, just in front, just behind (individually or together) with patience.


I guess I just don't know how to achieve this. I've clicked (or just use "yes") and treated a thousand times over for a loose leash. She knows heel very well, but it's the kind of heel you see in obedience trials with the leg hugging happy trot. I want something between heel and end of leash hugging.. which I've rewarded so many times. Anymore I stop and "nope" as soon as the leash is no longer loose. She still don't give two craps. She knows the routine too well now. If she pulls, she makes herself sit as soon as I stop. Goofy dog.


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## MRVivekB (Jun 21, 2014)

what works for my dog but is mentally draining is talking to him in a hyper excited happy fashion. I've actually stopped doing almost anything else. When I do that he'll look at me. I'll occasionally give him a treat but only if he voluntarily turns to look at me in mid-distraction.

Problem is, on a 45m walk, I can only keep that up for 15m or so. I just can't speak that much. But when I do, its highly successful.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I have not tried turns the way your videos show. I can give that a shot. I'll be turning some serious circles though!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


TThis is Roxie. I've had her for almost 6 years aand honestly just gave up since shes small and doesnt lunge or anything unless theres a cat. I started using a slip lead which works in low distraction environments with a light leash pop as a reminder, nothing painful/harsh, or a sporn no pull harness which helps but isn't foolproof. Although the one I have is a tad big because they didn't have the next size down. It applies a gentle ppressure around the chest and kind of makes them uncomfortable without damaging the neck.

willowy- -the main reason i dont want roxie to pull at all is because i like to text while walking... lol. I also take her to pet ffriendly stores and events like fairs where I need her to be still while i handle money and carry merchandise. I also use a cane occasionally when my leg pain is bad and it can be difficult handling a pulling dog and a cane at the same time.

iI've quite literally done the walk bbackward, sit and continue thing from kikopup for at least a couple of years now without progress. As soon as i start walking again she's pulling.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Welcome to my world! Have you read my thread in the training section? I've had some success with loose leash walking, but I've realized it's just not good enough for me anymore and I want to fix it.

I had always used the leash pressure method, or be a tree, and there was a lot of the back and forth you describe - hit the end of the leash, stop, dog puts slack in leash, walk on, dogs hits end of leash again, rinse repeat.

I have had a lot of success with penalty yards. How are you doing it? If Watson hits the end of the leash and pulls at all I say "oops" and we go back to the beginning. I've found that the "punishment" of having to go way back and not get to where he wants to go is pretty powerful for him. But the trick is also that this is a new method and I am not letting him pull ever. With leash pressure or stopping, hitting the end of the leash was ok, it just changed my behavior. But now hitting the end of the leash changes his behavior because we go way back.

The main thing that has helped though is worrying about the non-leash walking parts of our walks. Watson pulls because he wants to see and sniff the world as quickly as possible, because he's excited. So he can't get out of the car until he's sitting calmly. And when he gets out of the car he has to redirect to me and sit before we go anywhere. And then once we're ready he has to glance at me before we take a step. And then each step he has to be on a 100% loose leash or we go right back to the car. 

So far it's working very well. He does still have times on a harness and long line where he gets some more freedom, but I've had to set up very structured training sessions for the leash stuff, not try to incorporate it into daily walks. When I tried to incorporate it into walks, or getting to a training class, or going into the hardware store, or whatever, I was ultimately more interested in our destination, and then I was less than consistent. You say that you are consistent, but if she's still pulling using the penalty yards method and you aren't backing up and starting over, then you aren't being consistent.

ETA: Some other things.

I'm very pro-front clip harnesses and things for when you're not training LLW. At some point the dog needs to move around a bit, though I'm currently trying to keep things very structured until he really understands what I want. They do alter the gait, and no, they don't fix anything (for most dogs) but if you are committed to working with her otherwise it might give you an outlet for exercising her. If you say that you are going to work on just LLW all the time, then you won't be able to do hikes or long walks for a while because then she won't be able to handle those on a loose leash. So I would really consider some kind of management tool, or at least just a harness where you don't care so much if she pulls a bit.

Second, I haven't had any success with treating where the wanted the dog to be, *until* I also taught him that pulling was incorrect. I still got the ping ponging back and forth - pull out front, come back to my side for a treat, pull back out front. I've found penalty yards to be a good way to teach him what is incorrect, and then I also reward what is correct. But it's not just you who hasn't had success with only rewarding in position. My dog knows where I want him to be, he just didn't understand that being there is a requirement, not an option.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

elrohwen said:


> So far it's working very well. He does still have times on a harness and long line where he gets some more freedom, but I've had to set up very structured training sessions for the leash stuff, not try to incorporate it into daily walks. When I tried to incorporate it into walks, or getting to a training class, or going into the hardware store, or whatever, I was ultimately more interested in our destination, and then I was less than consistent. You say that you are consistent, but if she's still pulling using the penalty yards method and you aren't backing up and starting over, then you aren't being consistent.


As far as "penalty yards", I'm walking down the street. She hits the end of the line "nope!" turn around, walk back quite a few steps. Then we sit and wait for a few seconds, start again. Repeat. When I'm in the middle of a walk, there is no clear start line. I guess my only other option is to not walk her for real until she has LLW down. I really didn't want to alter her gait with a front clip.. but she will go crazy if I don't take her out at all.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> As far as "penalty yards", I'm walking down the street. She hits the end of the line "nope!" turn around, walk back quite a few steps. Then we sit and wait for a few seconds, start again. Repeat. When I'm in the middle of a walk, there is no clear start line. I guess my only other option is to not walk her for real until she has LLW down. I really didn't want to alter her gait with a front clip.. but she will go crazy if I don't take her out at all.


I don't find that using a front clip harness for a short period of time alters gait, and especially not if the dog isn't leaning into it. But you can always use a rear clip harness as well if she's not really hauling on it, just to give her exercise. I've used a prong for management as well. But if you want to teach LLW for real, I think you really have to make every single walk on a collar super structured and have very clear expectations. She's not going to learn if sometimes you are lax or not paying attention or just trying to get into the training class already.

I think the issue may be that you are moving too fast and not being consistent, just like I was. She doesn't really understand what you want from her yet because you haven't broken it down into small enough pieces, and have let her get away with some pulling. I've found that the only solution for Watson is to go back to NILF very structured training walks. He needs to be connected to me, he needs to be paying attention, and he needs to have a big loop in the leash or we don't go anywhere. And an NRM seems to help him realize why we have turned around and gone back to the car. 

When she pulls, you go back a ways, and then walk forward again. How soon does she start pulling? Is she pulling towards something specific? I would pick a spot on the sidewalk and do not advance from that spot until she is walking perfectly, then pick the next spot. And make her walk next to you on a short leash. "Not pulling" seems to be a much harder concept when the dog is 6ft out in front. If she is walking right next to you you can react the instant she starts to pull, and you can reward easily when she is right.

Not saying penalty yards works for everyone, but for my dog I've found it to be the best way to actually teach him that pulling is wrong. Just stopping or waiting doesn't seem to do that.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

elrohwen said:


> I don't find that using a front clip harness for a short period of time alters gait, and especially not if the dog isn't leaning into it. But you can always use a rear clip harness as well if she's not really hauling on it, just to give her exercise. I've used a prong for management as well. But if you want to teach LLW for real, I think you really have to make every single walk on a collar super structured and have very clear expectations. She's not going to learn if sometimes you are lax or not paying attention or just trying to get into the training class already.
> 
> I think the issue may be that you are moving too fast and not being consistent, just like I was. She doesn't really understand what you want from her yet because you haven't broken it down into small enough pieces, and have let her get away with some pulling. I've found that the only solution for Watson is to go back to NILF very structured training walks. He needs to be connected to me, he needs to be paying attention, and he needs to have a big loop in the leash or we don't go anywhere. And an NRM seems to help him realize why we have turned around and gone back to the car.
> 
> ...


I've probably been about 95% consistent, when this dog requires 100% consistency before she is going to get that I'm serious. So yes.. I will completely admit to this being my fault and will not pretend I've never laxed. I am human after all.  I'll stick my guns to penalty yards and pick a spot on the sidewalk as you mentioned. I keep her fairly close because she is reactive to critters and motorcycles, so she isn't allowed the full 6ft ever. She used to be dog excited-reactive but I'm proud to say we very rarely have a problem with that anymore.

To make a mental image of how difficult this is, I'll explain what happened today. I took her out into the driveway to practice some penalty yards. The starting point was the top of the drive (I don't have a steep drive). We begin to walk, she hits the end of the line (not hard, but that's not what I want at all), so I say "nope", make a loop and return to the starting point. I did this for 15 minutes... before we got far enough to hit the end of the driveway. She just isn't getting it quickly. Though, by the end of our session I did feel a little bit of improvement. I think it was because she was getting tired more than anything. 

She is only pulling to move forward and I'm too slow for how fast she wants to go. Sometimes it's squirrels, but that's another issue we are working on. Like I said, the pulling is actually fairly light. I just want the leash LOOSE. No more fun walks for awhile. Thank you for the advice.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

She sounds *exactly* like Watson. It's really only in the past week or so that I've realized he needs a lot more consistency, and higher expectations from me. When things are structured he does well and wants to please, but when I am loose and unstructured he just flails around and does whatever he wants, and doesn't really care about what I want (and what he wants is to GO!). If I want him to walk nicely, I need to insist on it, every single time, and not worry about getting from point A to point B. After about 20min into a session I can see the light in his eyes that we are working and he's excited about it, rather than the glazed over looking of running around and trying to get anywhere, everywhere, faster than I am walking.

Have you practiced penalty yards in the house? Or did you start outside? I tried it previously starting outside and it was a disaster, and I thought it wouldn't work for us. The sessions went exactly as you described, where we both ended up frustrated and he didn't seem to get the point at all. But this time I started inside, just throwing treats about 5ft away, then increasing to 20ft away and having him walk on a loose leash to get to it. This really seemed to solidify it for him, and when we took it outside his understanding was so much better. By starting outside I was just frustrating him and he didn't see the point, but by breaking it down to a very specific behavior in a very low distraction environment he seems to have figured out exactly how his behavior is impacting our walk, instead of thinking I'm just some crazy lady who keeps making him walk in circles back to the same starting point.

In 3 or so training sessions (beyond stuff we worked on in the house) we got maybe 20ft from the car, but by the end of half an hour we were walking together and doing circles and serpentines and things without any pulling. So yeah, it's hard. But, I think if you can get past the initial couple weeks it should pick up in speed as she gets what you want and understands that you are serious about it.

For me, it's turned into much more than loose leash walking. I realized that outside Watson is not particularly connected to me, and that's why he's not ok off leash and why we have issues in training classes. I think if I can insist he stay connected to me all the time that it will be the new expectation, and will change our whole relationship for the better. Eventually I hope this translates into a lot more freedom for him to run around and be a dog, but for now I think the way to get that is to restrict his freedom for a bit.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I did another short session today, and she figured it out a little bit quicker. I was even able to redirect her away from the squirrels this way. I think I was so focused on things being 100% positive kikopup style that I didn't realize that this dog needs less treats and more NILF. I do feel like this is going to work.. and it is so freeing to ditch the cookies.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I did another short session today, and she figured it out a little bit quicker. I was even able to redirect her away from the squirrels this way. I think I was so focused on things being 100% positive kikopup style that I didn't realize that this dog needs less treats and more NILF. I do feel like this is going to work.. and it is so freeing to ditch the cookies.


Uh yeah. I know the feeling. I did lots and lots of positive reinforcement and it came to a point where I ditched the goodies and upped the structure and expectations and it works just as well. Offer good behavior, you get more rewards. Offer less, you get less freedom and more obedience work.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

When we got Snowball, we started with a front-clip because he is reactive and walking on a flat collar was just... no - he was lunging so hard that I was terrified he'd injure his neck for sure. But he also pulled horribly, so a back-clip harness was out (plus I find dogs harder to control, generally, in a back clip harness vs. front clip). I had no success teaching a loose-leash on an easy walker, likely due in part to my inexperience with dog training. (I still prefer to train LLW on a collar; even with foster dogs, I don't have much success actually training LLW using a harness, although once they start to get the idea of LLW they do walk much better regardless of whether its on a harness or a collar).

I tried "be a tree", I tried penalty yards... after a year we were still having problems. After talking to one of the behaviorists/trainers at the shelter, I was finally able to crack it, and now Snowball is great on-leash. Not perfect, but definitely not a puller. What I ended up doing was a combination of modified penalty yards and focus exercises. So basically, we'd be walking along, and before Snowball got to the end of the leash, I would randomly change direction and call him in an excited voice. When he made the decision to follow me, I clicked and rewarded. I'd do this several times in quick succession, going a few steps in any one direction, and always rewarding Snowball for being on a loose leash and following/focusing on me. Kind of similar to KikoPups "Let's Go!" exercises, except in any direction and not just turning around the way you came. The way it was explained to me, training LLW in that way basically trains the dog to focus on, or at least check in with, the handler because they never know where you're gonna go. Along with intermittant click/reward for the leash being loose while walking along, it worked pretty quickly. Noticible improvement after a week or so, pretty much eliminated pulling after about a month.


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

I also had a lot of success with penalty yards when teaching Ammy. First (before I knew better) tried leash corrections; when she was only about 12 weeks old, and neither of us really got anything out of it. Then I did p+ only. Improvement, but not awesome. Then I watched kiko pup with the penalty yards and this definitely made the biggest improvement. I agree with elrohwen about upping the penalty yards. 

She walks pretty much perfect when we are out in public. She only really pushes me when we go to the dog park and she's impatient to get inside. Also if I know we are going to be doing a lot of public walking that day (farmers market, hiking, whatever) I take her out to run around for about 30-45 min first and then she's a dream on the leash. I don't know if it's an option for you to maybe let her exercise some excitement out before trying to walk? This might just help get the edge off while you're trying to teach.

edit: 
I will say I had gallbladder surgery last week and when I took Ammy out she stayed at my side on the leash even at my slow crawl. I was so thankful she wasn't pulling then!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Caeda has always been a notorious puller, getting her to walk nice on leash has been an almost 4 year ordeal now. Don't get me wrong, she is WAAAYYYYY better than she was at the beginning, but not where I'd like her....she does the hugging the end of the leash thing often. She also doesn't bolt after wildlife either, and if she looks like she is going to, I can very easily call her off. That said, still working on it. 
I have had some recent improvement, but it may not work for you, a lot of it is based on Caeda and I knowing each other and having a lot of communication down. When we're walking, if she starts that teensy tug I'll stop, she usually stays at the end of the leash and waits for me (unless there is an awesome smell, then she sniffs). I say Nope (I don't say it mean or anything, just a no reward marker, telling her "that's not the right thing", I found it works better for me than waiting her out). She'll usually sit. I say Nope again, she looks back, I give her the heel hand signal, which usually prompts a sigh and a (fairly funny) backwards shuffle/spin into her heel position (I really should video tape it some time, its quite cute). I say "Good", then start walking, say "Heel", give her a treat, pause for a little bit and if she is still within the position I want her in (which can be a little ahead or behind, I'm not strict on the exact spot), I say Good and give her another treat. The first few walks doing this I had to do it about 5 times until it got a bit better. Now, it only happens once, maybe twice, then all I have to do is slow down, say nope, and she is back in position....sometimes all I have to do is clear my throat in a particular way and she backs closer and gives more slack. Of course brand new or super exciting places she's all nose and I have to give her time to sniff it out before any of this works lol.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I did a lot of "look at me!!!" With Josefina and a lot of changing direction when she was young with a long lead so she would get going and I would be like "whoops!" Than change direction. I guess she was saying to herself "this human is unpredictable and exciting! " so I guess maybe that's why I he never had a puller? I don't know lol.


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## Wolfius (Mar 13, 2013)

I keep treats in my pockets. All three dogs tend to smell them, and walk beside me in hopes they get one. They are older, the red heeler is 2, the bulldog Caramel is 3, and the bulldog Milky is 2 as well. But all of them were rescues so they had horrible horrible leash manners. They get a treat every time we stop at a landmark. Stop sign, and if they follow me down the path I want to go, not the path they want to go, they get a "good, follow me" and a treat. If they pull, a firm, "no pulling"

They listen well enough to it. The whole entire walk is "when is daddy going to give up the goods" hahahahahaa. But now a days they don't even need the treats. So I don't use them. I just can use the correction as is.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Have you tried just keeping the leash shorter for now? I know it sounds like a silly/simple suggestion, but I have found that dogs learn LLW much faster when they have much less leniency in the beginning. My dog would do the same thing as yours when I tried teaching him with the full 6 ft length of his leash. I shortened the leash so that he can only get maybe half a foot away from me, and then slowly increased the length of the leash as he learned to walk beside me. He's still not perfect, but pretty good after the first 5-10 mins of penalty yard-ish exercises.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Running with Ryker has helped his LLW more than anything. I think it helps because he has to stay in rhythm with me. I walk him on a harness and if I see he is getting to the end of the leash I give a gentle tug and say "easy". This helps, but I need to catch him before he is at the end of the leash. He still pulls on occasion, but so much less.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

taquitos said:


> Have you tried just keeping the leash shorter for now? I know it sounds like a silly/simple suggestion, but I have found that dogs learn LLW much faster when they have much less leniency in the beginning. My dog would do the same thing as yours when I tried teaching him with the full 6 ft length of his leash. I shortened the leash so that he can only get maybe half a foot away from me, and then slowly increased the length of the leash as he learned to walk beside me. He's still not perfect, but pretty good after the first 5-10 mins of penalty yard-ish exercises.


It is always shorter. When she walks loose, she is pretty much at my side. 

If I start to run, she turns into a super puller. Not to mention due to health I can't really run a lot. She goes get plenty of running in the backyard and on a long line in the field. I will try to drain some energy before walking too. I'm sure that might help.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I also think that draining a bit of her energy before you walk might rein her in a little ... I know that Josefina wouldn't be ok with just w walk ... or even if she went running lol.


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## MRVivekB (Jun 21, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I also think that draining a bit of her energy before you walk might rein her in a little ... I know that Josefina wouldn't be ok with just w walk ... or even if she went running lol.


WooHoo, Thanks, I personally tried this, may I present to you evidence of the second time in 3 *months* that I was the leash puller! I took Raja on a brisk walk this morning, did 4.5 mph for about 20 minutes. In the beginning I basically kept up with him, but after perhaps 0.75 miles he started slowing down and I kept at it. It did wonders for leash reactivity because as we'd pass other dogs and he'd start to bark, he realized he had to double time to keep up. I'd combine continuing to walk with a "heel" command. He got a little annoyed when I wouldn't let him stop & sniff anything, but I was going for physical "exhaustion" first so the stop&sniff wouldn't turn into the stop&sniff&lunge.










OP, perhaps that might work for you too.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MRVivekB said:


> WooHoo, Thanks, I personally tried this, may I present to you evidence of the second time in 3 *months* that I was the leash puller! I took Raja on a brisk walk this morning, did 4.5 mph for about 20 minutes. In the beginning I basically kept up with him, but after perhaps 0.75 miles he started slowing down and I kept at it. It did wonders for leash reactivity because as we'd pass other dogs and he'd start to bark, he realized he had to double time to keep up. I'd combine continuing to walk with a "heel" command. He got a little annoyed when I wouldn't let him stop & sniff anything, but I was going for physical "exhaustion" first so the stop&sniff wouldn't turn into the stop&sniff&lunge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow! I'm glad that worked for you! If you are physically unable to run or anything like that, maybe you could tire her out mentally? Or with something like trebbial?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Wow! I'm glad that worked for you! If you are physically unable to run or anything like that, maybe you could tire her out mentally? Or with something like trebbial?


She gets plenty of physical and mental stimulation. We use a flirt pole, we play with toys, conditioning exercise on her peanut, we do lots of training exercises, we do agility, we go walking (which is the issue right now because of the pulling). I just can't do a lot of running most of the time because of my sciatic nerve. She pulls because she is a brat. 

We are doing better now though. She finally seems to get it. She isn't happy about it one bit, but she is getting it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> She gets plenty of physical and mental stimulation. We use a flirt pole, we play with toys, conditioning exercise on her peanut, we do lots of training exercises, we do agility, we go walking (which is the issue right now because of the pulling). I just can't do a lot of running most of the time because of my sciatic nerve. She pulls because she is a brat.
> 
> We are doing better now though. She finally seems to get it. She isn't happy about it one bit, but she is getting it.


Yeah, tiring them out isn't always the answer. Watson is great on leash after we have walked for a couple hours, but obviously that isn't the answer to teaching him not to pull in the first place 

Glad she's doing better! Watson was doing much better last week, but he's home with my husband this week so I haven't worked with him lately.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, tiring them out isn't always the answer. Watson is great on leash after we have walked for a couple hours, but obviously that isn't the answer to teaching him not to pull in the first place
> 
> Glad she's doing better! Watson was doing much better last week, but he's home with my husband this week so I haven't worked with him lately.


Also, some dogs don't ever understand penalty yards, be a tree or anything else. with Izze, she didn't, it was just who she was. she wouldn't connect the pulling with losing "yards", she would just go right back to pulling, I went through a year of this. I had to resort to giving corrections with her and saying a firm "NO!" as I made my steps backward, so she KNEW exactly WHAT she was doing wrong.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Also, some dogs don't ever understand penalty yards, be a tree or anything else. with Izze, she didn't, it was just who she was. she wouldn't connect the pulling with losing "yards", she would just go right back to pulling, I went through a year of this. I had to resort to giving corrections with her and saying a firm "NO!" as I made my steps backward, so she KNEW exactly WHAT she was doing wrong.


I use "oops" as an NRM and it works very well. I had to teach penalty yards very slowly though - he had to get it fully inside with me throwing a treat before he would ever understand outside. I tried it outside at first and he just thought we were walking in circles or backing up for no reason and he didn't put it together. By breaking it down to just pulling vs not pulling, and having a specific reward for not pulling (he got to eat the treat) it was much clearer to him.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I use "oops" as an NRM and it works very well. I had to teach penalty yards very slowly though - he had to get it fully inside with me throwing a treat before he would ever understand outside. I tried it outside at first and he just thought we were walking in circles or backing up for no reason and he didn't put it together. By breaking it down to just pulling vs not pulling, and having a specific reward for not pulling (he got to eat the treat) it was much clearer to him.


Different strokes for ddifferent folks I guess.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Different strokes for ddifferent folks I guess.


What?

You said you used no, I said I used oops. That sounds pretty much the same to me.

And I also explained that I had the exact same problem with the method outside, but how I fixed it, in case that was helpful to anyone.

I think you should re-read my post.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

for some reason all the llw ,ethods work a lot better with roxie on a slip lead, i dont know why that is, i guessr the extra pressure is enough to make her respond better?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> It is always shorter. When she walks loose, she is pretty much at my side.
> 
> If I start to run, she turns into a super puller. Not to mention due to health I can't really run a lot. She goes get plenty of running in the backyard and on a long line in the field. I will try to drain some energy before walking too. I'm sure that might help.


Okay, so she is walking loose and only starts to pull if you speed up? Am I understanding this correctly? Or does she sometimes just pull?

If she is just sometimes pulling then I think maybe you haven't reinforced it enough. I am very generous with my treat giving when LLW training lol!

If it's from running, maybe try speeding up just a tiny bit (like a slow walk to a brisk walk), and work your way up to full speed running?


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## Kudzu (Aug 15, 2013)

I know I'm the oddball here, but....

Our walks improved immensely when it finally occurred to me that my dog just wanted to walk at his own comfortable pace, smell the flowers, etc. And that there is nothing wrong with that. why did I really need him to heel all the time anyway? So now it's a back clip harness and flexi leash for us. we do some healing intermittently, but for about 80 percent of the walk, I just let him have fun and just use the leash to keep him out of trouble. Enjoyable and stress free for us both.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Kudzu, you're not an outlier, that just doesn't work for every dog I don't think. I have never required my dog to heel during walks, and I always let him go at his pace and check things out. My problem is that his pace is a sprint. Haha. So he was still yanking my arm off and being ridiculous and it just isn't enjoyable for either of us.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I haven't read all of the replies, so sorry if I've missed anything or I'm repeating stuff.

Sounds like everything you do is punishing her for pulling. "When she pulls I do this..."

You need to teach her what you want. Reward her for walking next to you, starting inside the house. Don't just use treats, also use the opportunity to go and sniff as a reward by releasing her to do this when she's walking nicely.

As soon as she moves in front, stop, turn around, walk the other way. When she catches up and walks next to you, reward. Repeat. Don't wait for the leash to go tight, react as soon as she starts moving ahead.

The reason she pulls is because she's getting rewarded for it, otherwise she would have stopped doing it by now. If you're going to use nothing but punishment for pulling, the punishment would need to be greater than the reward she's getting for doing it, which is going to be hard because moving forward, sniffing things and looking at things are great rewards.

Another reason a dog pulls is because the owner is boring and the world is much more interesting. So in addition to working in being more fun while walking, also make sure you do a lot of other fun training and activities with her.

Also, make sure you are using a decent length leash. A lot of people who tell me their dog pulls, is using a short leash. A shorter leash means the dog is more likely to pull because they can't move at all without the leash being tight. Your leash should be around 1.8 metres (6 ft) long.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> What?
> 
> You said you used no, I said I used oops. That sounds pretty much the same to me.
> 
> ...


Yeah but my no isn't like a light hearted no, it's a low, gruff "you did something wrong" no.which is why I said it was different. I don't call it a NRM, I call it a "you did something wrong and I didn't like it" marker lol


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## MRVivekB (Jun 21, 2014)

Kudzu said:


> Our walks improved immensely when it finally occurred to me that my dog just wanted to walk at his own comfortable pace, smell the flowers, etc.


Actually, I just noticed this too. If I move at around 4.2-4.5mph, all is good as thats his speed. I've had good luck the last 2 days because of that. I have a small dog, mutt but definite high prey drive so I can't let him get too far, he'll sprint into traffic if there's a bird there. Plus me doing 3-5 miles/day at 4.5mph on top of soccer is a good thing.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

taquitos said:


> Okay, so she is walking loose and only starts to pull if you speed up? Am I understanding this correctly? Or does she sometimes just pull?
> 
> If she is just sometimes pulling then I think maybe you haven't reinforced it enough. I am very generous with my treat giving when LLW training lol!
> 
> If it's from running, maybe try speeding up just a tiny bit (like a slow walk to a brisk walk), and work your way up to full speed running?


Sorry that comment on running was based on someone elses comment about taking her running. I can't run with this beast yet because she gets even worse with the pulling if I speed up. 



lil_fuzzy said:


> I haven't read all of the replies, so sorry if I've missed anything or I'm repeating stuff.
> 
> Sounds like everything you do is punishing her for pulling. "When she pulls I do this..."
> 
> You need to teach her what you want. Reward her for walking next to you, starting inside the house. Don't just use treats, also use the opportunity to go and sniff as a reward by releasing her to do this when she's walking nicely.


In my earlier posts I've stated that I've used the kikopup methods and rewarded her a thousand times over for what I wanted her to do. She knows what gets her the treats. She also has been rewarded with being able to sniff things if she doesn't pull toward them. She gets what I want her to do, but she doesn't quite understand what I don't want her to do. I was just describing the methods I've used for no pull (which always included rewarding for the correct behavior on top of that). Obviously they weren't working. I didn't just change methods either. I stuck them out for a few months before changing. 

Seriously, I've seen a huge improvement already ditching the constant cookie reward thing with this particular thing with her. Her new and only reward now is just being able to walk forward, because that's what she really wants more than anything when she is outside. She has definitely proven to me that not everything works for every dog.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Seriously, I've seen a huge improvement already ditching the constant cookie reward thing with this particular thing with her. Her new and only reward now is just being able to walk forward, because that's what she really wants more than anything when she is outside. She has definitely proven to me that not everything works for every dog.


Proud of you!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm glad you've found something that's working! Watson is exactly the same. Treats just were just not high enough value outside to prevent him from pulling if he wanted to pull. Just being firm about not moving forward ever without a lose leash has worked so much better.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Sorry that comment on running was based on someone elses comment about taking her running. I can't run with this beast yet because she gets even worse with the pulling if I speed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, the simple reward thing and ignoring the bad doesn't always work for every dog, either. Josefina I suspect is like your dog in the respect that simply rewarding her for the good and ignoring the bad isn't good enough, she has to know exactly WHAT she is doing is bad and what is GOOD, so she can have a clear understanding of what she can do and what she cant.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

does she like to stay with you? like doesn't like to be too far? or will she run if she thinks she has the chance? I have had good luck with changing the game, but this won't work if your dog doesn't have a strong desire to just be near you. by changing the game I mean letting her go, the second you fell pressure on the leash, be a tree and DROP THE LEASH. this has been the most effective method I have ever used for my hard case pullers. I find with the constant light tugging dogs, they know what the leash is.. and they know you are attached to the other end so they can be an excitable as they want and they know you will always be there. so if you change the game and every time you feel pressure you stop moving and drop the leash, they will keep going at first then suddenly realize something is wrong, they turn around and you are NOT with them..they panic "OMG I thought I lost you mom!!!" and come running back, I pick up the leash and started walking, they apply pressure I stop and drop the leash again, and same thing. within a few drops the dog is like "OMG mom, clearly I need to keep my eye on you!!" and they never pull again. but I cannot stress enough, do NOT attempt this if you dog does not want to always be near you lol


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Miss Bugs said:


> does she like to stay with you? like doesn't like to be too far? or will she run if she thinks she has the chance? I have had good luck with changing the game, but this won't work if your dog doesn't have a strong desire to just be near you. by changing the game I mean letting her go, the second you fell pressure on the leash, be a tree and DROP THE LEASH. this has been the most effective method I have ever used for my hard case pullers. I find with the constant light tugging dogs, they know what the leash is.. and they know you are attached to the other end so they can be an excitable as they want and they know you will always be there. so if you change the game and every time you feel pressure you stop moving and drop the leash, they will keep going at first then suddenly realize something is wrong, they turn around and you are NOT with them..they panic "OMG I thought I lost you mom!!!" and come running back, I pick up the leash and started walking, they apply pressure I stop and drop the leash again, and same thing. within a few drops the dog is like "OMG mom, clearly I need to keep my eye on you!!" and they never pull again. but I cannot stress enough, do NOT attempt this if you dog does not want to always be near you lol


Nope. She will go bye bye. I have an independent Aussie.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

For me, I am happy if they are not yanking my arm off lol. They know formal heel, just in case I have to use it, but I don't make them stay in it all the time.
Also some dogs are just pullers, and that's who they are and there is nothing that can be done about it.


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