# Explanation of "Heat"



## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

The first cockapoo that I ever owned, we spayed at 6 months. However, this go round, we are getting a boy and a girl (CKC registered) so that we can breed once. Since I have never dealt with this before, can someone please explain how often a dog goes through heat and what the ramifications are. I was told by the breeder that I am getting the puppies from that we had to wait 2 years before breeding, so I just want to be totally informed. Thanks in advance,


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

Do I understand that you are getting a boy and girl cockapoo with CKC papers? Please verify that info first and then we can talk some more.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

blackgavotte said:


> Do I understand that you are getting a boy and girl cockapoo with CKC papers? Please verify that info first and then we can talk some more.


 I think the Continental(sp) Kennel Club (the puppy mill registry) is now registering mutts.....

To the OP: Why do you want to breed your two dogs in the first place?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

The Canadian Kennel Club does not recognize "cockapoo" as a breed. If your dog is registered with the "Continental Kennel Club", or the "Cockapoo Kennel Club", or the "Call-us-crap Kennel Club", you should not breed this dog...IMO. I don't mean to be rude to you, I'm sure you are a very nice person...my statements are for anyone reading this thread, but I see breeding mixes or mixed breeding is a problem to all the homeless dogs living in shelters and rescues. But again, this is only my opinion.


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

I was waiting for clarification " just in case " I assumed incorrectly. Then I was going to " Have at 'er " and glad to see I don't have to.


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

No disrespect taken- I am an adult, and I realize everyone has their own opinion, just as I have mine. In MY opinion, cockapoos just like other breeds long ago are trying to become an "official" breed. Whether you agree with that or not, is up to you. My dog, Raven- was a cockapoo. I had her spayed at six months. She died last month. The one heartbreak that me and my family has is that we don't have any babies from her. She was sold to us as a companion pet. This time, I am purchasing a boy and girl to breed them, not for sale, for my family and myself. That is why I posted the original question about heat.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

atldoglover said:


> No disrespect taken- I am an adult, and I realize everyone has their own opinion, just as I have mine. In MY opinion, cockapoos just like other breeds long ago are trying to become an "official" breed. Whether you agree with that or not, is up to you. My dog, Raven- was a cockapoo. I had her spayed at six months. She died last month. The one heartbreak that me and my family has is that we don't have any babies from her. She was sold to us as a companion pet. This time, I am purchasing a boy and girl to breed them, not for sale, for my family and myself. That is why I posted the original question about heat.


 I'll stay off my soap box about how mix breeds (mutts, mongrels, etc) shouldn't be bred, and I'll just consentrate on responsible breeding. 

The first question I'd like to ask you is this: Do you plan to do health screening on your two Cocker/Poodle mixes?
Second question: are you willing to keep up to seven puppies? If not, how will you go about finding them homes?

And since I'm at lack of words for the moment, please take the time to read this article. It shouldn't answer some of your questions:


> Many people think that breeding dogs is easy. However, the reality is quite different.
> 
> I often have people email me who want to breed, and invariably their bitch has just come into season, and they want to breed without having the skills or the knowledge. At best, this is careless. If your bitch is in season, and you are asking questions now, then do NOT breed her. Wait until you are properly trained and mentored.
> 
> ...


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

blackgavotte said:


> I was waiting for clarification " just in case " I assumed incorrectly. Then I was going to " Have at 'er " and glad to see I don't have to.


By the way, I really AM a nice person- a teacher, in fact. You don't need to "have at me". That's not called for.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)




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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

> In my opinion~
> 
> Puppies need more than just five minutes of your undivided attention.
> 
> ...


 I would also like to say:
There isn't a need to "have at" anyone. The way to get your point across is not to scream in their face and call them irresponsible. It is by showing them what is right, not pointing your fingers, stating undistputable facts, and then helping them along the right path. This is true with any one and in any situation. Yelling does nothing. 
I'm sure you are a nice person who just wants the best for her dog. This is why I urge you to do the neccessary research before you breed.


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

Yes, I plan on getting my dogs tested- as part of my contract. This is information from the breeder that I plan on getting my puppies from:
For those breeders who want to continue with 2nd, 3rd, and future generations it is of the utmost 
importance to perform all genetic testing prior to breeding as well as researching pedigrees on cockers 
and poodles. By researching the pedigrees, talking to breeders, performing necessary health 
certifications (CERF for example), it may be possible to keep the Cockapoo breed one with very few 
hereditary problems. As well as making the Cockapoos they produce healthier for a lifetime of love and 
companionship with their families.

Although many diseases are inherited, they can be avoided in future generations by testing dogs before 
breeding. Identification of dogs that do not carry disease genes is the key.

Control of any inherited disease is the responsibility of the breeder and his breed society like the 
American Cockapoo Club or the NACR, the veterinary profession also has its role to play. As far as the 
eye is concerned, such control is based upon regular clinical examination, particularly of the breeding 
stock.

In the future, DNA based tests will play an increasingly significant role, but for the present and the 
immediate future, an awareness of the diseases and the use of the official certification schemes represent 
the most significant features of disease control. The presence of an inherited disease is not only a 
problem for the affected dog, but also a problem for the whole breed, and as such, control measures must 
be accepted by the whole breed working in unison. Routine examination and the publication of results in 
an open registry are essential if the propagation of inherited disease is to be denied.

As I said, I am a teacher outside of cyber space, but a true teacher is one who realizes that they never stop learning (sorry to be cliche', but that's how I really feel). You have given me information, I will take it to heart and think about it. However, the way in which people approached me was somewhat harsh. I am new to this forum and I am a genuine person. Perhaps, I shouldn't breed. Perhaps people don't like the propagation of "mixed" breeds, but there is a way that adults should express themselves and I hope that this forum is one of those ways.


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## Kerri6398 (Nov 11, 2006)

atldoglover -- Let me try and asnwer some of your questions. first of all, everyone who is going at you about breeding is just doing this to find out if you are a responsible breeder or not. There are many people out there that are not. If you are very serious about breeding please do get your dogs hips,eyes, ect certified. There is no other way of telling if they are healthy and ready to pass along good health to the puppies. There is alot to breeding and alot to prepare for before you even begin. Please be responsible!! I cannot stress that enough. Mutt or Purebreed. I do agree with what the others are saying but I will put all of this aside and try and answer your question that you need help on.

#1- Yes your dog should be 2 years of age before you breed. She needs to be fully grown and mature and that is the reason. She is not ready and would be way to young any time before that.Also, you are not able to get them certified until they are two years of age. However if you do decide to breed before she is two please get her x-rayed and have her preliminary's done at least. Do you have a breeder who you could answer all of your questions and help you along the way? If your dogs are from a reputable breeder then you should be able to ask her/him all the questions you need to know about breeding. 

#2- If you are going to breed you really need to look into the "heat" process. I would think if you are looking into breeding then you would know this. However, it can last anywhere between 2-3 weeks. Usually it is one week coming in, one week in, and one week going out of heat. If that makes sense. Some bleed alot and others very little. Depends on each dog. My weim is in heat right now and she is a heavy bleeder. I am changing her pads constantly!! Some people leave their dogs in the same pad or change it every now and then but I do not believe that is very sanitary. If you wouldnt want to be in it all day then niether does your dog!

I hope this gives you a general idea about "heat". I really think you need to look into breeding a little more before deciding that you want to go ahead and breed. Like everyone else is saying, there are alot of unwanted dogs out there right now so make sure you know what your doing and that you have the puppies placed in homes before they are even born.

P.S. I myself have had two cockapoo's in my life. When I was very young they were our family dogs. I can tell you both had problems. One with her bladder and the other one had colon cancer and alot more problems. This is a mixed breed therefore there are more problems. You need to be extremley careful! I cannot stress this enough!


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## sobreeze (Oct 31, 2006)

*nice person*

you love dogs so you must be a nice person but you realy need to listen what is being said here all the things in the list are things you realy need to know puppies are a very big responsibility not just for the ones you might want to keep but for the litter to all get good forever homes i used to breed cockers years ago and i love puppies so much but if i realy want a puppy just go get one from a shelter or if purbred buy one from good breeder i just got 2 boston puppies and as soon as they get 6mo. will be fixed they are just a handful by themselves and i have 8 dogs so not every one is bashing you we just want you to think it out first and if they are just babies enjoy that they grow so fast


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## Kerri6398 (Nov 11, 2006)

Atldoglover-

I am sorry if we/I came off being to harsh. I in no way am trying to be rude. I understand where you are coming from completley. I just joined this forum a week ago or so and had the same experience. There are alot of people who are here to help you out the best they can and some people are just not to great with communication. I have noticed that on here it is much easier to think someone is being ignorant considering you dont know the tone they are using. I had a similiar experience on here myself, some people just being completley arrogant and flat out rude and I am not here to be like that in any way, shape or form. I just wanted to make sure you are being careful in all of your decision making. Which is what most people in this forum are out to do. They are here to help you. Alot of people on here work in shelters and they see alot of bad breeding and careless people. They are just very opinionated becuase they have seen so much. I think it would be hard not be that way if you saw homeless animals day in day out. I asked a breeding question also and got bombarded with comments on how I was irresponsible, and in no way am I that. However toward the end of my forum I realized all of those people were just trying to make sure I was doing the right thing and not overpopulating the dog world more then it already is. I have learned to respect them for that. Please dont take what they are saying the wrong way and welcome to this forum!!!!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Kerri6398 said:


> However toward the end of my forum I realized all of those people were just trying to make sure I was doing the right thing and not overpopulating the dog world more then it already is. I have learned to respect them for that. Please dont take what they are saying the wrong way and welcome to this forum!!!!


Applause!!! Thank you for sharing your understanding.


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

Kerri6398 said:


> Atldoglover-
> 
> I am sorry if we/I came off being to harsh. I in no way am trying to be rude. I understand where you are coming from completley. I just joined this forum a week ago or so and had the same experience. There are alot of people who are here to help you out the best they can and some people are just not to great with communication. I have noticed that on here it is much easier to think someone is being ignorant considering you dont know the tone they are using. I had a similiar experience on here myself, some people just being completley arrogant and flat out rude and I am not here to be like that in any way, shape or form. I just wanted to make sure you are being careful in all of your decision making. Which is what most people in this forum are out to do. They are here to help you. Alot of people on here work in shelters and they see alot of bad breeding and careless people. They are just very opinionated becuase they have seen so much. I think it would be hard not be that way if you saw homeless animals day in day out. I asked a breeding question also and got bombarded with comments on how I was irresponsible, and in no way am I that. However toward the end of my forum I realized all of those people were just trying to make sure I was doing the right thing and not overpopulating the dog world more then it already is. I have learned to respect them for that. Please dont take what they are saying the wrong way and welcome to this forum!!!!



Thank you. I take everything with a grain of salt. I do think that this is a great forum with lots of great advice. But, thank you for sharing your opinion. Points are well taken.


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## dogsgalore (Nov 1, 2006)

Breeding should be left to the "experts" I have a rottweiler that has an excellent temperment comes from a great pedigree but she is getting spayed becuase I have no eperience in breeding, it takes more then a male and a female, what about complcations? and taking care of the pups, my rott came from a long line of 12-16 pups per liter in 4 generations.

I think people that try and say their mixed breed dogs should not be breeding, Im not saying they are bad breeds.. but why create more pups??? we have so many in shelters now shame that your pups will most likely end up there, I have a rescued malt/****zu mix that was bought from a pet store and turned into the humane society...


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i just have 2 things to add to this......1st, any mixes being bred and tried to make a breed will not be recognized as such until you can take 2 of that crossing (say Cockapoo) and cross them and get one general look.....this needs to be done consistantly (where someone can look at the dog and say "oh, that's a Cockapoo") for at least 5 generations......and, so far, this has not been achieved.....

2nd, i hope that these 2 pups you are getting are from 2 completely different breedings or you're going to be starting the downfall of this line right from the beginning......


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## dogsgalore (Nov 1, 2006)

I was thinking the same thing I was under the impression she may be getting a brother and sister from the same litter... Again why breed!! when so many dogs and cats are put down each day


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

*" have at 'er"?*

That terminology seems to have made some people a bit anxious, but anyone reading my posts will realize that though I may be passionate about dog care in general and in the larger, world wide picture, I am not in the habit of bashing people nor being rude. I write the way I speak, and I am learning to not do that quite so freely. No one can see, when I am writing, that there is often a wicked gleam of humour in my eyes when I am using certain terms. For that, and that alone, I apologize and will try to do better. 

Now....The screaming from the rafters would be so intense, and members of the AKC and CKC leaving in such droves, if a cockapoo was recognized as a breed, I can tell you on that basis alone, if not the rest of what I will say, it is not going to happen. The very principles of ethical and serious dog breeding would be so insulted that those two clubs, in my opinion, would not stand .

Cockapoos were around when I was first in the dog world as a pro. I thought back yesterday to when that was, and that was in 1960! Gulp ! 

The ones we saw then were actually, usually, the exact first generation cross, an American Cocker and a Miniature Poodle. They were usually pretty skookum dogs, of medium to heavy bone for their size, almost always black, and you could actually see the clear breed characteristics in them. They were actually more consistent in type than cockapoos today. Most of them were around 25-30 lbs. Even then there were problems with health, so if you think that by crossing those two breeds, you can get healthy animals, think again. 

American Cocker lines are literally riddled with so many problems, they are next in heartbreak to breed only to English Buldogs. The breed has epilepsy, cherry eye, PRA, cataracts, luxating patellas, hip displasia, entropian, severe ear and skin problems that are serious and often lifelong, ( have you ever seen an ear resection surgery? I have, many, almost always on cockers and the really serious skin problems the breed has is enough to break the bank not to mention the discomfort these dogs can go through, life long ) , then there is the usual problem in breeding of trying to produce good temperament, coat, and general beauty, or at least respectable soundness of structure. Black cockers are usually considered to have the more stable temperaments than gold or red, but 'taint necessarily so either.

In Miniature poodles, you have also PRA ( for which they have just within the past 5 years or so FINALLY found a gene for the more common form ), epilepsy, luxating patellas, legg-perthes, hip displasia, juvenile cataracts, as well as the usual considerations of mental and physical soundness. In those two breeds in fact you have potentially more problems than in most combinations. 

The fact is, that nowadays, with the generations of " pure bred cockapoos " that has gone on, no one could possibly unravel the genetic hodgepodge. The only way to get a new breed recognized is to have seven generations of documented, proven and consistent as to type, breeding. And I mean seriously documented with an elaborate paper and film trail. There also has to be a reason for a new breed to be developed. What would the reason be in this case? Pet ? Do you think there is a need for more breeds now, for being a pet? Look through the AKC and CKC books. There is not. There is a pet for everyone out there in so many, many breeds already. 

I guarantee you that IF there was ever even consideration given to who would be the " developer " of this new breed, it would not be someone that has no credibility, ( nor money ) in the dog world already. It is more likely to be a respected person who already has a track record with either club, of showing and probably judging, with some other breed, in an exemplary fashion, over many years. It is NOT going to be someone who has been doing backyard breeding of mixed breeds.

With the heartbreaking, barbaric, inhuman and inhumane situation of the puppy mills, the shelters and private rescue organizations in North America, there is no ethical reason to bring more puppies into this world who have even a chance of either ending in one of these situations, or whose ancestors came from one of these situations, or whose progeny could contribute to the situation even more. It is obscene to add to this mess for any reason. I have known so many people who were going to breed their dog " just once " , it usually doesn't end that way. They carry on, often it is people whose incomes are low and they think this is a good way to make some extra money. The worst of it is, it can be. People continue to support this without thinking of the bigger ramifications. You will already have supported this, if you have bought the two puppies you were speaking of. I only hope, that you will seriously reconsider the breeding aspect. You may indeed be a nice person, but in this subject, you need more education.


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

2 Things

1. To dogsgalore and turlc:The two puppies that I am getting are not from the same litter at all- they have different moms and dads and the moms and dads are in no way related.

2. "You may indeed be a nice person, but in this subject, you need more education"-blackgavotte- As I stated in the post earlier, I realize that I need educating-that is why I am here- but as I tell my students, "it's not what you say, but how you say it" I have never stated that I was above education, in fact, through all of this- I have listened and taken everything with a grain of salt.


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## poofywoof (Nov 17, 2006)

After reading all the threads on this subject, I would like to invite anyone thinking about breeding to volunteer some time in at least one animal shelter in their area. Or volunteer as a board member for your local humane society. What you will see there will make you change your mind about owning pets or breeding pets. You will be amazed by the many puppy buyers that start out so well intentioned; But then the novelty wears off, there are so many messes to clean up and vet care is "so expensive" ... Many pets in shelters started out in well meaning homes
There is a saying, " don't breed or buy while shelter pets die". Food for thought, animal shelter experience will change your outlook considerably. I dare you...


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## poofywoof (Nov 17, 2006)

Thinking you are a breeder because you have a dog and a bitch is like thinking you are a carpenter because you have a hammer & nails! Pause a moment and consider it.


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## AnimalLoverCatRescuer (Nov 17, 2006)

This is my very first post but I just wanted to say that as much as I disagree with breeding so called "designer" mutts, at least you are open to suggestions and willing to learn. You are just getting your pups and you will have 2 years to learn all you can about them. Plus you will have a mentor, the original breeder, who can hopefully help you along. 

The tough thing you have to deal with is having an intact male and female in the same house. He can get her pregnant at any time before the 2 year period and it will be extremely difficult when she is in heat. I have heard of males destroying fences and breaking thru walls to get to females in heat. Be very careful! We don't want to see you back here in a year saying oops the male got at the female and now she is pregnant before the tests are done and they are 2 years old. 

It is so very important to have those health certifications done even though they are EXTREMELY expensive to do. You are going to go into huge debt testing both dogs and then keeping all the pups. Even if you sold them you would still barely break even, maybe not even close. Keep that in mind.

This is probably the most peaceful discussion I have seen about his topic.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

AnimalLoverCatRescuer said:


> This is probably the most peaceful discussion I have seen about his topic.


I concur! This is what happens when both sides of the story are expressed intelligently, and people are willing to listen.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I know I am new here, but I would like to comment. 

First off, this is definately the most civilized discussion I have EVER seen on a forum in regards to "hybrid" breeding, and I think that says alot for you all. 

Now on to the OP- I know that sometimes people can come across as very harsh, and that it's easy to misconstrue things online (ie intent and emotion). However, people here only want the best for the animals. After you've been here for a while and things really start sinking in, you will look back at this post and think to yourself, "Wow, I've come so far in my thinking." 

Some things you have posted have raised questions in the minds of the experienced posters. After all, you are breeding "hybrid" dogs. There are many dogs in shelters that are "hybrid" mixes. I think people want to understand WHY your mixed breed dogs would be better then any other mixed breed, and also why you'd take the risk of bringing possibly unwanted puppies into the world. 

I'm not saying that YOU wouldn't want them, but facing facts one puppy is VERY hard to take care of, especially if you work full time. Keeping the 6 or 7 puppies your bitch would produce, plus keeping your bitch and stud would be overwhelming for anyone. And, if you don't keep all of them, finding good homes is a trial, even for an experienced breeder. 

Also, no matter how many dogs you have that are the same breed as your beloved pet who is now at the bridge, it is very likely that they will all have different temperments. Especially because they are a hybrid with no standard. You may end up getting these dogs, and realize that they do not live up to the image you have in your head of the dog you are trying to replace. 

Please do not mistake me, I am not minimizing your loss. I know how hard it is to loose a loved one. Just make sure you are engaging in breeding for all of the right reasons: for example, you want to better the breed. 

As for the rest, people have pretty much gone over the things I was thinking when I read your post. I'm really glad you've kept an open mind. Please continue to do so.


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## dogsgalore (Nov 1, 2006)

I agree, on the other board I visit the people there are HORRIBLE and Im not the first to say that, when I mentioned what happened the other day with the attack on my dogs I was bashed like crazy for 80 posts!!!, yes you can breed your dogs, but should you?? I would say NO, I have one unaltered female and a neutered male, so I dont have to worry on my home end, she will be spayed at 18months (all my breeders reccomed it) but like the last post keep an open mind and if you are breeding for $$ think again, my friend spent alot of $$ to breed her rottweiler bitch and 5 months later still had all but 1 pup he had 10...


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## Kerri6398 (Nov 11, 2006)

Dogsgalore- Just curious, why do all of your breeders reccommend spaying at 18months? What are there reasons behind this? I am just so curious because so many vets/breeders reccommend spaying before there first heat so that they have a lower risk of cancer.


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

Kerri, I am jumping in here just because I have a few minutes, Dogsgalore, excuse me, just do your post as if I hadn't stopped by. One thing that I know for sure that is happening is that the powers that be, decided that when we spay and neuter some dogs too early ( in their opinion ) ( before 6 months and for some breeds before a year, especially the giants ) that there can be, in some individuals some lessening of development of bone, also there may be some more time needed to lose some of the juvenile traits, in some dogs. 

I have a real problem with this for mainly one reason, the more people who have dogs coming into heat the more unwanted litters there will be. Females have been spayed at 6-7 months for many years now, and I for one, don't give a tinker's fart if some females don't lift their leg while peeing, or some males squat while peeing, or if this causes them to take just a bit longer to fully grow up. 

The big picture is far more important than these trivial things. Many thousands of dogs have gone on to gain obedience or working titles after being spayed or neutered at 6 months or so, I believe that their brains do develop normally regardless. I do have a problem with the 3-4 month spaying and neutering that is coming about nowadays, again that's been driven by the crisis situation of the pounds and shelters, again due to careless breeding. 

Okay, I'll butt out now, and say no more.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

blackgavotte said:


> Kerri, I am jumping in here just because I have a few minutes, Dogsgalore, excuse me, just do your post as if I hadn't stopped by. One thing that I know for sure that is happening is that the powers that be, decided that when we spay and neuter some dogs too early ( in their opinion ) ( before 6 months and for some breeds before a year, especially the giants ) that there can be, in some individuals some lessening of development of bone, also there may be some more time needed to lose some of the juvenile traits, in some dogs.
> 
> I have a real problem with this for mainly one reason, the more people who have dogs coming into heat the more unwanted litters there will be. Females have been spayed at 6-7 months for many years now, and I for one, don't give a tinker's fart if some females don't lift their leg while peeing, or some males squat while peeing, or if this causes them to take just a bit longer to fully grow up.
> 
> ...


Actually, the recommedation by most Large Breed and Giant Breed breeders not to neuter until 18 months or spay before the first cycle really has nothing to do with "juvenile traits" and everything to do with their bone & joint and urinary tract health. The growth plates do not close until around 18 months. If you don't wait to neuter until then, you could possibly be setting your dog up for some major joint problems. And, if a female has an inverted or recessed vulva and is spayed before her first cycle, you've just step her up for a life full of UTIs and Vaginitis that would have easy been "cured" with her first cycle. So, actually these are not such "trivial things". However, I do realize that some people cannot handle an unneutered dog or an unspayed female responsibly for that long and it upsets me as well that their carelessness and irresponsibility ends up in the shelters.

Just my 2c,
Darcy


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

*trivial*

Lablady, if you will reread my post you will see that what I was referring to when I spoke of trivial things, is the leg lifting and squatting debate. 

There is just no perfect answer to this spaying question nowadays with the overpopulation of dogs and the obscenity of the tragic lives some of these dogs live from birth to death. Quite frankly, this latest trend of spaying and neutering as early as 3 months or so, is just as sickening to me. We'll never know how many innocent puppies die on the table, since their baby systems cannot stand the anaesthetic or surgery. 

If I knew people really understood how to prevent breedings while a female goes through that first heat, I personally would prefer to leave females intact till then, and males intact until around a year old. I realize fully that then you increase the incidence of breast caner for females, but my gut feeling is still that it is probably best all round to leave the uterus and testicles there until around a year of age. Probably in the Giant breeds until 18 months, yes, that seems like a sensible thing to do, they are still doing a lot of growing until then. 

However, I know how many unplanned litters will be born as a result of this, and I wish I had the perfect answer. I wish this were a perfect world too, and its not. Perhaps greater minds than ours will one day find a way to solve the problems of the pounds and shelters, and of animal abuse and cruelty in all its forms, world wide.


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## Kerri6398 (Nov 11, 2006)

Thanks for your thoughts on that......

Lablady- The reason for me asking this question is acutally becuase a friend of mine has a puppy and it has vaginitis/tucked vulva. One vet reccommended that she wait until her first cycle to spay that way it could have the chance on its own, without surgery to become untucked. Then she got a second opinion on this and the other vet said NO WAY, SPAY HER NOW!!! So she is right now torn between the two and is asking for my help. I have been looking all over the web for answers and everyone has a different opinion on this. Or I guess you could say a different approach. She is scared with the fact that they could get cancer earlier on if they are not spayed but her pup has so many bladder problems just from that tucked vulva. I felt as though she should wait, let her go into heat once but keep her confined and then spay her before she could go into another cycle. What are your thoughts on that? She is a very careful individual and 100% believes in spaying if not breeding to better the breedand be responsible. So unplanned litters is out of the question, she would never let that happen her main concern is the health of her pups life.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Kerri6398 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts on that......
> 
> Lablady- The reason for me asking this question is acutally becuase a friend of mine has a puppy and it has vaginitis/tucked vulva. One vet reccommended that she wait until her first cycle to spay that way it could have the chance on its own, without surgery to become untucked. Then she got a second opinion on this and the other vet said NO WAY, SPAY HER NOW!!! So she is right now torn between the two and is asking for my help. I have been looking all over the web for answers and everyone has a different opinion on this. Or I guess you could say a different approach. She is scared with the fact that they could get cancer earlier on if they are not spayed but her pup has so many bladder problems just from that tucked vulva. I felt as though she should wait, let her go into heat once but keep her confined and then spay her before she could go into another cycle. What are your thoughts on that? She is a very careful individual and 100% believes in spaying if not breeding to better the breedand be responsible. So unplanned litters is out of the question, she would never let that happen her main concern is the health of her pups life.


I actually have this very problem myself with my own pup Blue (although situation is a bit different since Blue is more than a pet and will not be spayed). That vet that told your friend to spay now is CRAZY and does not have her pup's best interest at heart at all!!! All he's probably looking at is the money from the cost of the spay and the further care the pup will most likely need after she's doomed to a lifetime of UTIs, Vaginitis, and antibiotics. Either that or the cost of corrective surgery which is an added expense (up to $300 or $400 in some areas). Also, it has been proven that the increased risk of cancer is very trivial after just one cycle. I would definately wait until after the first cycle and then reassess the situation, but most likely the cycle will take care of the tucked vulva. After the end of first cycle (usually about a month from beginning to end), she should wait one month to have her spayed.

To tell you the truth, I actually switched vets over this very situation and I can tell you I've come to realize what horrible service my dogs were receiving from the previous vet. I mean, after 4 puppy wellness exams over 2 months time, our other vet did not catch that Blue has a recessed (not quite inverted, but just recessed) vulva (which I had suspected but wasn't quite sure). But, the worst part about it is she was so quick to push long term antibiotics on our puppy and tell us that she could schedule a corrective surgery. Not only that, but she would not even hear of any other remedies besides the antibiotics- saying they were of absolutely no benefit to Blue. I was (and still am) very upset about it all. But, I'm glad to say that after 2 weeks on a home regimine (if you're interested in it you can PM me for more info), Blue tested free and clear of her UTI and Vaginitis at our new vet (something that 3 weeks of Clavamox could not clear up)! To top it off, the new vet said that our home regimine was actually quite a good solution after he looked at the components!

Sorry to rant a bit, but it is SOOO important in these situations that owners of females in this situation are educated enough to make the right decision for their girls.

Hope it helps,
Darcy


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## pupskersandhutch (Nov 20, 2006)

Personally Id rather breed cats then dogslol** . I had the same problem with a vet they did not Properly take her ovaries out and she kept going into heat and we had no freaking idea why she had crusty blood down in her privates. we took her to another vet and he said if we didn't bring her in she would have died it was that BAD ughh vets can be so stupid and handicapped sometime I SWEAR!!!!.


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## juls (Aug 7, 2006)

Kerri6398 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts on that......
> 
> Lablady- The reason for me asking this question is acutally becuase a friend of mine has a puppy and it has vaginitis/tucked vulva. One vet reccommended that she wait until her first cycle to spay that way it could have the chance on its own, without surgery to become untucked. Then she got a second opinion on this and the other vet said NO WAY, SPAY HER NOW!!! So she is right now torn between the two and is asking for my help. I have been looking all over the web for answers and everyone has a different opinion on this. Or I guess you could say a different approach. She is scared with the fact that they could get cancer earlier on if they are not spayed but her pup has so many bladder problems just from that tucked vulva. I felt as though she should wait, let her go into heat once but keep her confined and then spay her before she could go into another cycle. What are your thoughts on that? She is a very careful individual and 100% believes in spaying if not breeding to better the breedand be responsible. So unplanned litters is out of the question, she would never let that happen her main concern is the health of her pups life.


This is exactly what is happening to my puppy right now. I originally planned on spaying my puppy when she turned 6 months. However, after a series of bladder infections/ 1 case of vaginitis, the vet recommended I let her go through heat once. I am wondering if I should even wait through a couple cycles. Anyone else have opinions on this?


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

juls said:


> This is exactly what is happening to my puppy right now. I originally planned on spaying my puppy when she turned 6 months. However, after a series of bladder infections/ 1 case of vaginitis, the vet recommended I let her go through heat once. I am wondering if I should even wait through a couple cycles. Anyone else have opinions on this?


Nope, it should correct itself with the first cycle and then I would have her spayed. The risk of cancer is only trivially increased after one cycle, but it does go up after that. So, one cycle, then spay. Also, be prepared to watch her 100% of the time during her cycle to prevent an unwanted litter. Even if you think there are no intact males in the area, there are always unknown strays. So, be careful and good luck!


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## juls (Aug 7, 2006)

LabLady101 said:


> Nope, it should correct itself with the first cycle and then I would have her spayed. The risk of cancer is only trivially increased after one cycle, but it does go up after that. So, one cycle, then spay. Also, be prepared to watch her 100% of the time during her cycle to prevent an unwanted litter. Even if you think there are no intact males in the area, there are always unknown strays. So, be careful and good luck!


Thank you! I didn't even know not spaying ups the chance of cancer. I'm not really looking forward to when she goes through heat but luckily, I'll be off work by then.


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## juls (Aug 7, 2006)

How appropriate that I just asked about going into heat. My puppy just tried to hump my arm- I've read this is a dominance thing so I pushed her off and told her "No!" And then I had her lick my hand and praised her. This is the first time that she's tried to do this on a person (or anything that I've seen, at least) so my question is: Is this an indication that she is going to go into heat soon? Today was her 6 month birthday so I know it could start anytime now.


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## Dogged (Nov 19, 2006)

blackgavotte said:


> Quite frankly, this latest trend of spaying and neutering as early as 3 months or so, is just as sickening to me. We'll never know how many innocent puppies die on the table, since their baby systems cannot stand the anaesthetic or surgery.



In my experience, puppies do very well with anesthesia and surgery. Probably better. I have had a few dogs spayed at 3 and 4 months, and they did just fine. I worked in a hospital that sceduled a whole days surgery time to do a whole litter of 3 month old hound mix pups. It went so fast, we were done in half the time, and the pups were awake and playing with each other within about an hour. They recovered much better than older dogs and had no complications.

I haven't heard that early spay neuter is any more dangerous than being done at 6 months.


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

A lot has to do with the surgeon, as far as the safety issue of the actual surgery itself. Baby systems tend to handle anesthetics better after they are around six months old, , its believed the liver handles the anesthetic better then. However, I must admit: 

I worked for a vet many years ago who did a lot of cropping, a lot of puppies at 7, 8 and 9 weeks old ! Some were very thin pups too, I used to cringe. However, this particular man was sooooo experienced I remember us only ever losing one puppy. The other vets in this hospital adamantly refused to put a pup that young under anesthetic . In the last clinic I worked in, up to 2 years ago, it was an AAHA hospital, state of the art, they also preferred not to anesthetize pups under 5 1/2 - to 6 months old. The feeling was still the same, the liver handles it better when the pups are that age. 

There is more and more evidence about side effects when the uterus and testes are taken away too early, mostly it has to do with the bone development in large and giant breeds, and now the awareness of the UTI problem that many female puppies have. I am seriously against leaving dogs too late to be altered, mainly because I know darn well that there are going to be many, many more unwanted litters, and more shelter puppies because of it, but even I have to admit that with certain breeds and certain individual dogs, its best waited on. 

Also, dare I say it, there is a big difference in a good quality clinic with experienced vets on board, doing very careful surgery, and the sort of surgery that is sometimes done on these shelter puppies. I don't know about where you are, but I can tell you that there are still many areas where these pups and kittens are surgically altered by, shall we say, less- than-well-experienced vets, under not great conditions, nor even properly sterile conditions. 

We will never have the empirical data to prove our differing opinions one way or the other. There are not really double blind studies and long term studies being done on this problem. But my own gut feeling is that to take away a uterus and testicles at a young age of 10-20 weeks, is absolutely not right. Even if these puppies survive the surgery, we just don't know for sure how many changes are affected, nor how much, when those growing-up hormones are lost so early.


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## Dogged (Nov 19, 2006)

And yet the AVMA endorses it.

http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/spay_neuter.asp


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

Yes, they do endorse it, probably largely because of the shameful situation of shelters and luckless, pathetic animals that come into the world just to be euthanized after sometimes a really miserable life. I fully understand why they do support it. Note also that they leave discretion and opinion up to each veterinarian. 

There will always be dissenting views on this, as on so many other subjects. That's part of being human. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, though no one cares more than I, about trying to stop the indiscriminate breeding of dogs, and the fact that when we have dogs, they are entitled to a minimum standard of life with us, otherwise we should not have them. 

But that's a whole 'nother thread.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

The DogListener as well as a few others had previously posted some interesting information on early spay/neuter, which got me thinking. I will definately have to do much research on the subject before getting my next dog altered.

I completely trust my vet. She really seems to keep up to date on everything, attends many seminars and even teaches. So I did not question her when she recommended Natalie be spayed at 4 months of age. At that time, much of the information I'd come across gave me the impression that this was fine and even benefical.

Having said that, most of the dogs I know have been spayed/neutered early, at 6 months of age or younger, so it will be interesting to see if any behavior/health issues arise down the road. 

So far, one Shih Tzu has suffered from a UTI and later had to have 108 stones surgically removed from her bladder. Whether or not this has anything to do with her being spayed at 4 months of age, I can not say but none of the other dogs seem to have suffered any ill effects.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

atldoglover said:


> The first cockapoo that I ever owned, we spayed at 6 months. However, this go round, we are getting a boy and a girl (CKC registered) so that we can breed once. Since I have never dealt with this before, can someone please explain how often a dog goes through heat and what the ramifications are. I was told by the breeder that I am getting the puppies from that we had to wait 2 years before breeding, so I just want to be totally informed. Thanks in advance,


One of the myths that is so attractive to those who love their dog and want one just like them is that such a thing is even possible. Think about your own family. Are you just like anyone in your family - I doubt it. Even siblings have different personalities. Frequently offspring is more like one of their grandparents than like their parents. And what's sad is that people are often disappointed when the pups are not like the parents, and they never quite form the same bond they did with the beloved parent dog. That's unfair to the pup, and has risked a lot of their lives. People have a tendency of grieving for their old dog, and then being disappointed because the new dog (whether bought or bred) can't compete with the glowing memory of how fast the old dog learned, or how well it behaved - often forgetting what a problem-child it might have been until it was FINALLY trained. So the odds of getting a duplicate of you adult dog is pretty slim, if you think about it.

A website about Cockapoos you might be interested in is http://www.cockapoos.com/generalcontent/nacrgenetics.htm

The CKC (Continental Kennel Club) is a registry that is used by a lot of breeders that have been kicked out of the AKC (American Kennel Club). There was a huge rush to that registry when the AKC started requiring breeders to prove, by DNA samples, that the dogs being registered were really the offspring of the parents being claimed. It's not unusual for a breeder to even breed one breed to another and claim, by registry papers, that the pups are purebred. I've seen this happen frequently with small dogs when the breeder wants to create smaller sizes. For instance, one example was a purebred Bichon Frise bred to a purebred Maltese, to create a smaller Bichon which was then sold with papers claiming the pups were purebred Bichons. This is the kind of thing that the AKC is trying to stop, and the CKC seems to welcome, right along with the pups even claimed to be mixed breed. 

I don't have a lot of respect for the AKC, but the CKC is even worse, and unfortunately, all most people know is that they are getting "PAPERS" and so they think that's important. I even know one person who was proud to display the "Pet-a-gree" papers he'd gotten on his pet shop pup.

And finally, please remember the cockapoos, which are really just poodle mixes and cocker mixes, are also dying in the pounds for lack of homes.


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## squirt1968 (Feb 19, 2007)

*cockapoo*

It seems to me that the same person who said it was not a breed, then comes up with questions about the breed and papers etc. I have known several people who a cockapoo is the only dog they want. You asked for help not criticism. We do not all have to agree. Lets be kind.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

First, cockapoos are NOT a breed - there is no consistency. And even if they've been around the longest of the "designer dogs" - they are STILL not a breed and no one is trying to get a standard to apply to AKC for a breed.

Second, CKC (Continental Kennel Club) is a puppy mill and backyard breeder registry - the papers are totally worthless. They don't mean a thing. Just a rip off for the public.

Please do NOT breed your dogs - get them spayed/neutered.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

The CKC (Continental, not Canadian), APRI, and other such registries of this type exist solely because of back yard breeders and puppy mills. The papers are meaningless. 

"cockapoos" "flukehounds" or whatever the current "designer mutt" is going by these days, will NEVER gain AKC recognition. 
The regulations say, in part, regarding new/rare breeds:

The AKC has a Foundation Stud Service for breeds wanting to be
recognized. One of their statements says:

"The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-
registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-
recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences
such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat
colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation
Events by AKC breed standards."

So by that statement, none of the designer mixed breeds would ever be
elegible since those breeders (using the term loosely) are simply
combining 2 already recognized breeds.

It just blows my mind that people continue to breed mixes when the shelters are so full of them already.

I sincerely hope the OP will spay/neuter and just enjoy their dogs.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

It must be interesting to see what kind of pups they will toss.



> In MY opinion, cockapoos just like other breeds long ago are trying to become an "official" breed.


Hmm.. everyone seems to say this - I have to disagree. Breed development was _never_ a first generation affair. Fanciers throughout history have bred towards purpose and type, and only after many generations of consistent breeding and introduction of new stock and linebreeding, are the dogs considered for acceptance of the breed - and even then it depends on the country of origin and club. What's going on today, is the silliest thing I have ever seen. Marketing dogs based on a "hybrid" factor, and riding the Paris Hilton wave is _not_ what I consider the road to recognition.. and trust me - I've been on this road. It took *many* lovers, fanciers, and owners of the breed to come together and bring the best of the Duck Toller (my breed) into the rings. The engineers of the breed didn't just slap a retriever and field spaniel together and called it a Retraniel. So much consideration was made for type, working ability, health, and build that the fact that some people consider Cockapoos and Peekapoodles or whatever the hell an attempt of getting recognized is, well. Laughable.


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