# My dog tried to attack someone :(



## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

We moved into our new place almost 3 months ago, the way it's set up we can always see our next door neighbor working in his garage which he does all day every day.. Toby is almost 8 months now. Anyways, toby took a long time to realize this man means no harm, we did a lot of work, sitting outside letting him get used to the man being there etc. Lots of treats. He was finally at the point where he could walk out our door, see this man and not bark at him.. Toby generally loves everyone. He does an initial bark when someone comes over but he's instantly wanting pats & cuddles. He's a bit anxious of people he see's in the street, they don't come over for pats, he barks at them. But he stops once i redirect his attention/tell him enough. We're working on the random people spotting..

Anywhoo, yesterday afternoon we came home, i was getting Toby out of the car, the man was right next to the car, washing his car. And there was a cat in the drive way. Toby was barking at the cat, the man must have taken it as toby barking at him, and he walked over to us, where i thought he was coming to say hello to Toby like he has done a few times. Instead, he stood right over toby, leaned over him, pointed his finger at him and yelled "TOBY! NO!" And i don't know what he did, kind of went to tap/hit toby on the nose with his finger, and toby absolutely snapped. He went savage. He certainly would have attacked and bit this man if i didn't have him on leash..

The man was then yelling at me saying "you need to put a muzzle on him before he attacks somebody" i was in such fear of the situation (probably didn't help toby, me being scared) i couldn't say anything. I was just on the ground by that point holding toby by his leash & harness. I tried to say he's never like this with anybody, he really is a friendly dog if you're friendly to him.. But the man just kept yelling that i need to muzzle him, and socialize him better. Toby wouldn't calm down with his yelling, and my fear. I had to carry him inside. 

I was in such shock. And i'm really angry at the man for yelling at my dog. Toby has been raised purely on positive reinforcement. I had one friend watch him for a night when he was very young & they use negative force on their dogs, and they've yelled at him, despite my insisting, and now every time he sees her and her boyfriend, he pee's. He's very nervous around them still. So i knew the moment the man yelled at him that it was going downhill..

I don't know where to go from here.. I'm worried about seeing this man again and how toby will react. He complained to my landlords who live upstairs. I understand him being worried, but the most toby can do to him is bark. We're only here at night, we leave early & come back before 6 to eat l sleep. Toby is always on leash when going from our door to the car.. As long as he doesn't come up to him and yell/threaten him again he won't go savage. I'm just worried in general. I've got a friend who's cattle dog was yelled at & it bit the person, they had to give it away 

I'm just stressed. I don't know what to do. I'm trying to find a new place to live, but it's not easy given my price budget & people aren't willing to allow a dog in a place unless it's a tiny one.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Poor Toby - he was showing fear agression in response to your neighbor's screaming at him - perfectly understandable. Did the incident take place on your part of the property? It sounds like the man came into your space, and that Toby was reacting, not only in fear, but in a protective way. If the man was on your property, tell him to leave if he tresspasses again, and to quit threatening your dog.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

georgiapeach said:


> Poor Toby - he was showing fear agression in response to your neighbor's screaming at him - perfectly understandable. Did the incident take place on your part of the property? It sounds like the man came into your space, and that Toby was reacting, not only in fear, but in a protective way. If the man was on your property, tell him to leave if he tresspasses again, and to quit threatening your dog.


Yeah, i don't blame Toby, but it wasn't an ideal situation to be in, and these neighbors already think he's untrained. They asked me a few weeks ago if i've taught him to sit yet!? This dog is incredibly smart, he does all kinds of things (bow, stick em up, bang, weaves my legs, plays piano, rings a bell at the door etc), and they don't think he can even sit! I was offended when they asked that. But yeah, he makes bad impressions on people lol. 

It's hard with the property thing, it's kind of 2 houses on the one lot. We share a driveway down to the middle of the two houses. There's no real property line divider or anything. The space is all shared really, so i don't think Toby realizes how much is his. I can't tell the man to stay off either, him & my landlord who lives upstairs are really good friends. If he didn't yell at him, things would be fine! I just don't understand who does that to someone elses dog, approaching them, threatening them, yelling at them, and going to hit them?! I don't want his old school ways of dog training, i have that under control with positive.. Can't believe he did that. There's no way negative would ever work for Toby, even as a puppy with biting while playing, if i yelped/said ouch, he'd get more excited and come back for more biting. Yelling clearly does the same to him, makes him more worked up.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

With fear aggressive dogs you have to take command and be in control of every situation, just as you would with any dog. If someone starts to come over, no matter what you make them state their intentions, I never let anyone pet my dog, or anything without them asking me.
I think you assumed it'd be okay but there lies your problem, you should never have assumed anything if your dog barks at random people in the street. It's those kinds of things that would make me think something COULD happen.
I'm not saying to be paranoid, but I am saying to be more cautious, if you are tense or paranoid, it's gonna transfer to your dog

Plain and simple, tell them to not tell you how to train your dog and to not discipline your dog. You'll handle the situation, they don't have to.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Is it possible that your neighbour could occassionally help you train your dog (with your methods, of course) ??? 

Politely ask him if he would mind actually FEEDING a few treats from time to time. Pats on the head are good, but nothing makes friends faster than chicken wieners.



That said, it's up to you to carefully gauge whether or not this suggestion is appropriate in your particular case. If not, then consider consulting a behaviourist for first-hand advice. You sound as if you're on a tight budget, but it might be well worth the effort and expense, just to regain some peace of mind for yourself and to prevent your dog's behaviour from escalating.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

JESSJAME5 said:


> He certainly would have attacked and bit this man if i didn't have him on leash.


I don't think he would, he was mostly reacting to your leash. Leash pressure is agitating the dog causing stress and aggressive reactions so things quickly escalate. 



JESSJAME5 said:


> I was in such shock. And i'm really angry at the man for yelling at my dog. Toby has been raised purely on positive reinforcement. I had one friend watch him for a night when he was very young & they use negative force on their dogs, and they've yelled at him, despite my insisting, and now every time he sees her and her boyfriend, he pee's. He's very nervous around them still. So i knew the moment the man yelled at him that it was going downhill..


Part of this is really your fault to be honest. If someone did this to my dog he/she would never step foot in my yard. I will tell you one thing, it takes quite a *talent* to create such reaction overnight.

Since your dog is only 7 months old this could fall into puppy fear aggression. Also, shock, fear, stress etc. these are *not* good ways to handle it. You should expect puppy aggression, not be in shock when it happens. 

I highly recommend you watch this 3 part video explaining fear aggression with puppies and young dogs and how to properly cope with it.

Hope this helps some, good luck!


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

As for socialisation, I'm against letting strangers and generally other people pet/reward your dog. The best way to socialize a dog is to have other people simply ignore him, whenever possible. The video I linked explains it better.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

As far as I'm concerned, if you yell at and touch my dog and you get bitten, you got exactly what you deserved.

Unfortunately, you live in an apartment and that complicates things. I would tell the landlord what happened and point out that you always have the dog on a leash and there is simply no way for Toby to hurt this man unless the man walks up to Toby and bothers him, so please tell him to stay away from your dog. The next time you see the man, ignore him. If he tries to approach Toby, put yourself between the man and Toby.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> As far as I'm concerned, if you yell at and touch my dog and you get bitten, you got exactly what you deserved.


Local laws won't reflect this attitude though. You need to be over and above careful with him about the people next door. The man was really, very stupid to do something like that but on his side it would be very unpleasant to live right next to a dog that hated you and feel unsafe in your own driveway. I think it would be best to try and mend fences, maybe knock on their door (without toby obviously!) and try to talk it out. Ignoring the issue won't solve it (you two WILL be thrown into contact) and it could be an opportunity to teach the neighbours how to properly handle toby. Also, it would mean them seeing how much work you put into him and make them less likely to tell your landlord "she has this vicious dog that almost killed me!"


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

EdDTS said:


> Plain and simple, tell them to not tell you how to train your dog and to not discipline your dog. You'll handle the situation, they don't have to.


If I'd known that was what he was planning on doing to him, I would have certainly told him to not do it. But he's come to say hi to Toby several times, this time was just so sudden and unexpected. I can't really tell my neighbor to just "back off" either, that alone would get me kicked out, they're really good friends with the landlord. Definitely going to tell him to keep his distance and not approach Toby from now on though, I'm sure he'll obey that much after the incident.



petpeeve said:


> Is it possible that your neighbour could occassionally help you train your dog (with your methods, of course) ???
> 
> Politely ask him if he would mind actually FEEDING a few treats from time to time. Pats on the head are good, but nothing makes friends faster than chicken wieners.


I tried this approach with my dad when Toby didn't like my dad, he was happy to take the treats from him but as soon as he was out of treats, he was back to barking at him. It was really just time and treating him for not barking at dad that got him happy to be around dad.. 



SassyCat said:


> Part of this is really your fault to be honest. If someone did this to my dog he/she would never step foot in my yard. I will tell you one thing, it takes quite a *talent* to create such reaction overnight.


I know it's partly my fault, but as I said earlier, there's no real separation of property/yard so it's hard to keep him "off" our part. He certainly wont be allowed to come near us again though. And I don't think he'll try.



SassyCat said:


> Since your dog is only 7 months old this could fall into puppy fear aggression. Also, shock, fear, stress etc. these are *not* good ways to handle it. You should expect puppy aggression, not be in shock when it happens.


How can you not be in shock though when your dog is basically spitting everywhere, being absolutely savage towards someone.. That certainly can't be expected? I'm having a lot, I mean A LOT of trouble with his fear and stress in the car. It happened once before a few months ago he went through a short phase of this stress in the car, crying when we'd pull up anywhere, even at lights, and bark at ANY person he saw outside the window, even my sister and friend who he absolutely adores, once they're outside the car he'll bark at them.. But he got over that, I would just say "enough" and he'd stop and settle down, then get a treat... Then he kind of just got past it by himself, didn't need to be told enough. But it's started up again, and a lot worse, he cries a lot more in the car, he's very stressed... I'm not sure what to do.

Thanks, I'll watch the video after this.[/QUOTE]


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

aiw said:


> Local laws won't reflect this attitude though. You need to be over and above careful with him about the people next door. The man was really, very stupid to do something like that but on his side it would be very unpleasant to live right next to a dog that hated you and feel unsafe in your own driveway. I think it would be best to try and mend fences, maybe knock on their door (without toby obviously!) and try to talk it out. Ignoring the issue won't solve it (you two WILL be thrown into contact) and it could be an opportunity to teach the neighbours how to properly handle toby. Also, it would mean them seeing how much work you put into him and make them less likely to tell your landlord "she has this vicious dog that almost killed me!"


Haha, yeah, good luck with the law taking that reasoning.. 

As far as the man feeling it's "unpleasant" to live with a dog next door like that, Toby has been fine with him for the past few weeks. Like he hasn't barked at him. So it's been quite good.

I think even if I went over there, they wouldn't really listen to me. He's older, probably late 50's, 60's? I dunno. Very active though, always camping, kayaking etc.. I'm 21, but I look like I'm 15. The way he talks to me, always, is like I'm some child, like I know nothing. It would be a lost battle even trying..


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Hmm, that sucks. I guess you'll just have to keep toby way out of their way unless you're specifically training, too bad you couldnt work together. Its such a shame that toby would pay the price of your neighbours stupidity.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

aiw said:


> Hmm, that sucks. I guess you'll just have to keep toby way out of their way unless you're specifically training, too bad you couldnt work together. Its such a shame that toby would pay the price of your neighbours stupidity.



It does suck.. But, I'm trying to move. Yes, I live in a very small studio room with a cattle dog.. But we're ALWAYS out. We just sleep there really. But I also haven't had a job all year, I'm studying online. But I'm finished for the year next month and I'll have several months off and I'm hoping to find a job until I start up studying again next year. I can't leave Toby home all day in the small studio room while I work, so I've been trying to find somewhere that has even a small fenced yard or courtyard type thing. Anywhere he can go outside as he pleases, lay in the sun, dig and swim in his pool, chew his bones out there etc, rather than being confined to a small room while I'm out. 

With this incident, it's just made me want to move sooner rather than later. I'm really lucky where I am now though for the price, and the fact they allow me to have Toby. But, hopefully I can find something else suitable.. It's tough trying to explain to people that he doesn't NEED huge acreage, he wouldn't use it anyways. He loves his enrichment, toys, pool, and puppy play dates and then seeing my family, more than he would a big empty yard, he's a happy dog generally.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Anywhere he can go outside as he pleases, lay in the sun, dig and swim in his pool, chew his bones out there etc, rather than being confined to a small room while I'm out.


The leaving him outside while you're out, does that mean while you're outside with him or he's outside while you are gone. Don't think the latter would be a good idea. Just sayin'....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Okay.... My opinion of what is going on is probably going to be different than others based on ACD specific experience. 
Nothing you have said rings any fear aggression to me. 

Remember the breed is SUPPOSED to be Aloof and Suspicious with strangers. 

So you move into a new place and your dog can see a stranger standing near. He is going to naturally want them to leave. Hence he barks at him. If he was loose he would probably go and try to "push" the man away. This is typical of ACDs. Not based in fear but they tend to want to control their area and the comings and goings of all life in it. 

They can become very fixated on this and it can become their "job" Think OCD......
Over time with work from you, he came to accept the man as part of the local scene. Probably was not happy about it. But would have let it go...

Now... You come home... Your dog is barking at a cat, no untypical behavior.... This stranger comes up and stands over your dog and scolds him.... The man is Lucky he did not get EATEN UP! My dog Merlin, would have absolutely clobbered the guy. My Bitch (the Hellbitch) would have Eaten him and gone looking for his family and friends. The Bitch I co own but does not live here would have Eaten him, his family, anyone he has ever known, then gone and dug up his ancesters and eaten them. Yes I am being a bit dramatic but you get the picture. 

An ACD, most I have known anyway, and I have known a BUNCH, is not the type of dog that is going to react anyway but the way you described to a stranger doing this. To further escalate the situation... You, the center of his world, the apple of his eye, the one he has sworn his ACD blood oath to be forever faithful to, were upset and intimidated by the situation. He was going to PROTECT you. 

The guy is really really lucky...

More later I have to go to work.....


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

wvasko said:


> The leaving him outside while you're out, does that mean while you're outside with him or he's outside while you are gone. Don't think the latter would be a good idea. Just sayin'....


Both...? Of course the latter would be a good idea, if i had an outside. Hence the moving..


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

JESSJAME5 said:


> Both...? Of course the latter would be a good idea, if i had an outside. Hence the moving..


i agree w/ the latter NOT being a good idea while you are not there....you have a dog that has shown aggression and you intend to leave him unsupervised in a yard while you're not home? think on this a min and you might see where it being a bad idea comes in.....dog out alone, stranger comes by and wants to come to the door/leave a pkg/whatever...dog bites stranger, lawsuit city......


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

tirluc said:


> i agree w/ the latter NOT being a good idea while you are not there....you have a dog that has shown aggression and you intend to leave him unsupervised in a yard while you're not home? think on this a min and you might see where it being a bad idea comes in.....dog out alone, stranger comes by and wants to come to the door/leave a pkg/whatever...dog bites stranger, lawsuit city......


I'm not sure what kind of yard you're referring to, but my idea of a yard is around the back, no way he can be at the front door if someone was to come by to the door or leave a package? Now unless someone decided it's a smart idea to jump the fence & attempt to enter my house through the back door, there's no way Toby would have any possible way to reach said person.. I certainly would not leave him in a front yard where that type of thing could happen, no. But a backyard, yes..


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Over time with work from you, he came to accept the man as part of the local scene. Probably was not happy about it. But would have let it go...


Yep, we were at the point where he was accepting the man standing there, and no haha probably wasn't happy about it, but he dealt with it. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> Now... You come home... Your dog is barking at a cat, no untypical behavior.... This stranger comes up and stands over your dog and scolds him.... The man is Lucky he did not get EATEN UP! My dog Merlin, would have absolutely clobbered the guy. My Bitch (the Hellbitch) would have Eaten him and gone looking for his family and friends. The Bitch I co own but does not live here would have Eaten him, his family, anyone he has ever known, then gone and dug up his ancesters and eaten them. Yes I am being a bit dramatic but you get the picture.


Yes! I do think Toby would have gone to a similar extent. He was NOT taking the scolding from the man, it was like a challenge. He is very lucky Toby was restrained.. He shouldn't be yelling at people's dogs, period..



JohnnyBandit said:


> An ACD, most I have known anyway, and I have known a BUNCH, is not the type of dog that is going to react anyway but the way you described to a stranger doing this. To further escalate the situation... You, the center of his world, the apple of his eye, the one he has sworn his ACD blood oath to be forever faithful to, were upset and intimidated by the situation. He was going to PROTECT you.
> 
> The guy is really really lucky...


I really enjoyed your descriptions. And yes, i do feel very safe living alone with Toby, i'm quite sure if the situation ever came up, he would definitely fight to the death to protect me. He resource guards me like i'm oxygen or something. Looking forward to more of your cattle dog descriptions..


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> there's no way Toby would have any possible way to reach said person.. I certainly would not leave him in a front yard where that type of thing could happen, no. But a backyard, yes..


Unless you have a magical backyard where trolls and human are vaporized as they either climb over a fence or walk in through a gate it still is not a very good idea. 

Since I am the type of person that believes some people have to learn things the hard way I will say no more except good luck to your dog(he may need it) 

You said (I believe) you were 21, most of the 21 year old people I knew, myself included were not very experienced, worldly etc To be blunt we were dumb as rocks. Also having a dog that will protect you is very ego satisfying and protecting others from your dog may not be high on priority list.

I don't know this for sure, it's an assumption and you know what they say about the word assume.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Unless you have a magical backyard where trolls and human are vaporized as they either climb over a fence or walk in through a gate it still is not a very good idea.


If someone is stupid enough to try & jump the fence with a dog already on the other side of it barking at them, then they deserve what they get. 



wvasko said:


> You said (I believe) you were 21, most of the 21 year old people I knew, myself included were not very experienced, worldly etc To be blunt we were dumb as rocks. Also having a dog that will protect you is very ego satisfying and protecting others from your dog may not be high on priority list.
> 
> I don't know this for sure, it's an assumption and you know what they say about the word assume.


Perhaps most 21yo's are 'dumb as rocks', i sure know a bunch of them. But no, i am not one of the 'dumb as rocks' 21yo's, but thanks.

I find no 'ego satisfying' in knowing my dog would protect me, just stating the facts. If i'd wanted a dog for protection i would have gotten a doberman. And infact, i'm the total opposite. Keeping everyone safe around my dog IS quite high on my list. If it wasn't, i wouldn't be putting in any effort to change this..


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> If someone is stupid enough to try & jump the fence with a dog already on the other side of it barking at them, then they deserve what they get.


Well the 10 yr old or even younger child that could climb over the fence to see dog barking on other side would indeed be a very dumb human or maybe just a young child looking for adventure.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

You seem to be focused on the unlikeliness of a stranger coming IN to your yard.



JESSJAME5 said:


> Anywhere he can go outside as he pleases, lay in the sun, *dig* and swim in his pool, chew his bones out there etc, rather than being confined to a small room while I'm out.


Have you considered the possibility of your dog digging OUT of your yard ? It happens.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I can't get over the fact that someone came into your drive way, shouted at your dog, then hit your dog.
I would've went off on this man, without a taking a breath in between. How rude, ridiculous and uncalled for.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree with JohnnyBandit's assessment and think your dog was completely in the right to confront a stranger (who he already didn't trust, which the guy knew) who tried to scold/touch him.

I agree with all of the others who say that you should not leave this dog unattended in a backyard. He could dig out or go over a fence and attack someone, in which case he'd be dead. He could hurt a kid who was dumb enough to climb the fence and try to pat him, in which case he'd be dead. Someone could object to an "aggressive dog" barking from behind the fence all the time, toss some poisoned meat over (this is more common than you'd think), and he'd be dead. Maybe that kind of risk is fine with you, and if it is, godspeed, but it's not something I'd feel comfortable doing with my dog. I think that a lot of nice outside time while you were home would be sufficient; most dogs just sleep all day while their owners are gone anyway, and he can do that comfortably and safely inside.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> I agree with JohnnyBandit's assessment and think your dog was completely in the right to confront a stranger (who he already didn't trust, which the guy knew) who tried to scold/touch him.
> 
> I agree with all of the others who say that you should not leave this dog unattended in a backyard. He could dig out or go over a fence and attack someone, in which case he'd be dead. He could hurt a kid who was dumb enough to climb the fence and try to pat him, in which case he'd be dead. Someone could object to an "aggressive dog" barking from behind the fence all the time, toss some poisoned meat over (this is more common than you'd think), and he'd be dead. Maybe that kind of risk is fine with you, and if it is, godspeed, but it's not something I'd feel comfortable doing with my dog. I think that a lot of nice outside time while you were home would be sufficient; most dogs just sleep all day while their owners are gone anyway, and he can do that comfortably and safely inside.


I'm crazy paranoid when it comes to my dog, it took months before I'd leave him home alone, even just in his crate. If I thought there was a chance he'd get out, I certainly wouldn't leave him in that situation. The places I'm looking at renting, seeing as I can't afford to rent a whole house, are granny flats/guest house type things.. So it's got it's own fenced yard, in a fenced yard... If that makes sense? I'm also looking at areas that are spaced out with a big of acreage so that he can't be in the way of people next door or barking up the fence line etc. I'm moving FOR him, so it's going to be the best dog/Toby-friendly situation I can find.. I really am over the top protective of him, I wouldn't put him in a living situation that doesn't work for him or that he's at risk from disrupting neighbors or escaping etc. Even with a separate fenced off part just at the back door, IN the fenced yard, IN another persons fenced yard... He just loves sitting/sleeping out in the sun and being outside. And also my city/town whatever, i'm finding it to be "uncommon" to have an inside dog. People get very weirded out when I tell them he's an inside dog. Everyone I know with a dog leaves them outside in the backyard 24/7, barely any attention, never allowed inside, I don't like that.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

aiw said:


> Local laws won't reflect this attitude though. You need to be over and above careful with him about the people next door. The man was really, very stupid to do something like that but on his side it would be very unpleasant to live right next to a dog that hated you and feel unsafe in your own driveway. I think it would be best to try and mend fences, maybe knock on their door (without toby obviously!) and try to talk it out. Ignoring the issue won't solve it (you two WILL be thrown into contact) and it could be an opportunity to teach the neighbours how to properly handle toby. Also, it would mean them seeing how much work you put into him and make them less likely to tell your landlord "she has this vicious dog that almost killed me!"


Yep. Sadly, human laws assume the humans are always right in situations like this. Never mind if the human that got bitten basically left the dog no other choice or pissed off the dog in the first place and then just added energy to the situation by yelling, etc.

Also, sadly, it's relying on the neighbor to have an open mind and not one of those "I don't give a **** and shouldn't have to walk on eggshells around a damn dog" mentality - something that seems to be a coin flip...


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Your dog, your rules. But I wouldn't leave my dogs out in my fenced and rural back yard to run to the grocery store. Ever. Not for money. And none of my dogs are aggressive to strangers in the least. Nor have they ever dug or challenged my fence. I won't leave mine out to take a two minute shower. And mine would be 100% dependable if a meter-reader or a child entered my yard. 

In a circumstance like you were in, if someone were to walk up to me while I was doing something, only one would have potentially barked and all 3 would accept yelling and even being struck. They would just leave. And I won't leave mine unattended.

Your dog, your rules. Just an outsiders view.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> I can't get over the fact that someone came into your drive way, shouted at your dog, then hit your dog.
> .



I cant imagine it happening at my home either....!!
Im kinda wondering if the owner of the dog has any leadership skills..
Doesnt seem as if he gets respect from his neighbors... or his own dog..

Look at the title: My dog tried to attack someone ..sad face

I think your dog may be taking the role as a leader...because you aint doing it.
and thats probably why strangers feel comfortable enough to walk up your driveway and slap your dog.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> walk up your driveway and slap your dog.


OP, did he slap him or hit him? When I read your post I wondered if he was doing the classic "bad dog" while pointing at him with his finger. I could see how a dog would interpret that kind of movement over his head as an attack but it may just have been a gesture. Either way it was a terrible idea on the part of the neighbour but he may not have intended actual violence. Of course I wasnt there so...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Something to consider is a portable Kennel Run (you choose size) In the states many Farm supply stores carry them or you can Google them. The good news is you get one, bolt it together and when moving to new place unbolt it and it goes with you. A rubber mat or concrete pad can be put on ground to prevent digging out and a tarp over 6 ft high (I like that height) and your dog is in pretty much an escape proof and safe place for him during day etc. (also like at least 9 gauge)


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Friday's are a VERY busy and long day at work for me.... I came home, fed the dogs, had a couple of vodkas and cherry juice..... And was done....

Anyway to expand on where I left off yesterday.....

So your dog got testy with a neighbor that was rude to him.....

Since your dog is an ACD that is the exact response I would suggest.

And speaking in generalities about ACDs. This will give you and idea of what you are working with. 

1) He is not a candidate as someone suggested for your neighbor to work with him to improve the relationship. Your dog likely has no desire to bond with the neighbor. He has you and would be perfectly happy with just one person to love. They are not Labs or Goldens... They don't live their lives to please people. The can love the one, like a few others and to hell with the rest of the human population. After the neighbors last stunt, I would not let him near the dog anyway. 

2) ACDs have an opinion about every one and every thing. And once they make up their mind about something it is like using a rock for a pillow to get them to change that opinion. 

3) ACD's have a tendancy towards being OCD. They become fixated on things. Once they decide they want something, or want to do something right or wrong they will often become obsessive about it. What I am saying is if the dog decides he really does not like something (or someone) and gets exposed to that object or person on a regular basis (like a neighbor) He is stands a good chance of becoming obsessed with whatever it is that has his attention. And once he does that it becomes a mission. He will spend a ton of time thinking about how to get to that object and will possibly do things that you feel is beyond his capabilities to do so. 

4) ACDs will bite.... I have never met one that I did not think would bite under certain circumstances. I will tell anyone straight up that the ones I own or co own will dang sure bite. They are not aggressive, they are not out of control, but they will bite under circumstances. And ACDs are over achievers.. If they bite they are going to bite hard and long.... 

Traits and tendencies.... ACDs do some things that confuse some folks.

1) Backing away from a stranger.... With many dogs if they back away from a stranger, in most cases it is fair to assume that the dog is fearful or at least has some anxiety... Well ACDs back up with some strangers. But it not fear in most cases. They back up to give themselves options and decide the best angle for attack. The dog either has not decided if the stranger is a friend or foe and is keeping his options open.... OR they have already decided they are going to get the person and are just deciding their best angle. An Example... When ACDs do bite work it often looks very atypical. Merlin works out once a month with some local police K9s. He drives Decoys crazy. He routinely takes Decoys to the ground that can usually remain standing with dogs that outweigh him by 50 pounds or more. He will run full speed at the Decoy on a long bite and then put on the brakes, 4 feet out, spin around behind the decoy before they have time to react and grab them upper torso back and pull them down. He has also been known to take Decoys off the ground by slamming in to the back of their knees. 

2) Lack of warning signs and Stink Eye........ ACDs often will not give a warning that most people will notice before they go after someone. Many don't waste time on raising hackles, growling, baring teeth, etc. They appear to just go off.... But they do give a Stink eye.... Seasoned ACD owners will know exactly what I am talking about. It is this go to hell look they give something or someone they don't like. Think of it as a dirty look.... And many will go straight from stink eye to "I am going to eat you". 

Again.... I am speaking in general terms. But your ACD had a typical response to the situation....

So the question remains how do you deal with it. 

It is not a matter of socialization. You SHOULD be socializing the pup, but nothing is going to change the ACD way of thinking. Merlin has had literally thousands of strangers hands on him. He has done numerous nutritional seminars, responsible dog owner events, events at the state fair, been to schools, etc. But as I said in my original post, in the same situation, he would have flat eaten up the neighbor....All that would be left is a greasy spot in the driveway. 

The OPs dog is just a pup. In six months he is going to be twice the dog. In two years he is going to be a MAN!. 

You have to Manage the dog. As someone else said, your dog, your rules. 

1) Good reliable obedience commands. Work on this over and over. They dog should be very sharp. 

2) Make sure "leave it" is strong and you have a good "OUT"

And MOST importantly.... MANAGE the dog... Control where he goes, who he interacts with and how people interact with him. I am not saying to lock him away.... Don't do that... I am saying be aware. Pay attention to what your focused on. Do not let him obsess over things, and if you don't like something get him out of there..... ACDs are a lot of dog. You have to be strong to own one.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

Roloni said:


> I cant imagine it happening at my home either....!!
> Im kinda wondering if the owner of the dog has any leadership skills..
> Doesnt seem as if he gets respect from his neighbors... or his own dog..
> 
> ...



I'm a *she*, just putting it out there.. 

I get respect from my dog, but apparently not "older" people..

He's also not a total stranger, he's my neighbour. I've spoken to him several times, and I see him every day... Of course he's going to feel 'comfortable' enough to walk up my drive way, but as far as what he did to Toby, I assume it's cause he's older and that's just his "methods" of dog training. Like I mentioned in a previous post, he see's Toby go from my front door, to my car, and visa versa, that's it. He took it upon himself to assume that Toby barking at him must mean that Toby has no basic obedience, and that I'm lacking in knowledge of training... 




aiw said:


> OP, did he slap him or hit him? When I read your post I wondered if he was doing the classic "bad dog" while pointing at him with his finger. I could see how a dog would interpret that kind of movement over his head as an attack but it may just have been a gesture. Either way it was a terrible idea on the part of the neighbour but he may not have intended actual violence. Of course I wasnt there so...


I think it was more of a tap/hit on the nose with his finger, I mean that's what the aim was, he didn't actually touch Toby, Toby snapped at him from the yelling before he got close enough, but he sure went for Toby. Much too close. And yelling in general. Either way, he shouldn't have even yelled at Toby like that..




wvasko said:


> Something to consider is a portable Kennel Run (you choose size) In the states many Farm supply stores carry them or you can Google them. The good news is you get one, bolt it together and when moving to new place unbolt it and it goes with you. A rubber mat or concrete pad can be put on ground to prevent digging out and a tarp over 6 ft high (I like that height) and your dog is in pretty much an escape proof and safe place for him during day etc. (also like at least 9 gauge)


I've never actually seen one for sale here, but I've heard they're close to $1000 or something crazy like that. I was looking at a place to rent, the guy used to breed & show Mastiff's and he doesn't have a fence around his acreage but he has a few dog runs. Unfortunately, I think this place has already been rented out.. Waiting to hear back.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 1) He is not a candidate as someone suggested for your neighbor to work with him to improve the relationship. Your dog likely has no desire to bond with the neighbor. He has you and would be perfectly happy with just one person to love. They are not Labs or Goldens... They don't live their lives to please people. The can love the one, like a few others and to hell with the rest of the human population. After the neighbors last stunt, I would not let him near the dog anyway.


I agree, I don't see any way in which Toby would be content with doing work with the neighbor. We've been playing a very tough and awkward game of "avoid the neighbor", which means spending longer hours out of the house. Leaving really early before he's up and in his shed, and coming back once it's dark so he's not out either! It's tough. But I have no idea what Toby's reaction will be when he sees this man again...



JohnnyBandit said:


> 2) ACDs have an opinion about every one and every thing. And once they make up their mind about something it is like using a rock for a pillow to get them to change that opinion.


I've noticed this. There's a dog or two that he's had 'altercations' with at the park and any time he sees them, it's the same.



JohnnyBandit said:


> 3) ACD's have a tendancy towards being OCD. They become fixated on things. Once they decide they want something, or want to do something right or wrong they will often become obsessive about it. What I am saying is if the dog decides he really does not like something (or someone) and gets exposed to that object or person on a regular basis (like a neighbor) He is stands a good chance of becoming obsessed with whatever it is that has his attention. And once he does that it becomes a mission. He will spend a ton of time thinking about how to get to that object and will possibly do things that you feel is beyond his capabilities to do so.


Haha, so it's his mission to make the neighbor go away.. He doesn't really notice him every day, maybe every second or third day, I try to distract him and walk him to the door in a big curve so he can't see the neighbor, but there's days where there's no way to avoid him. Time to move!



JohnnyBandit said:


> 4) ACDs will bite.... I have never met one that I did not think would bite under certain circumstances. I will tell anyone straight up that the ones I own or co own will dang sure bite. They are not aggressive, they are not out of control, but they will bite under circumstances. And ACDs are over achievers.. If they bite they are going to bite hard and long....


I feel this too. In a situation, like with the neighbor, I definitely do think he would have bitten him, several times, had he had the chance to. He was not pleased with the man.. I wouldn't call him an aggressive dog, not sure of the word I'd use though..



JohnnyBandit said:


> Traits and tendencies.... ACDs do some things that confuse some folks.
> 
> 1) Backing away from a stranger.... With many dogs if they back away from a stranger, in most cases it is fair to assume that the dog is fearful or at least has some anxiety... Well ACDs back up with some strangers. But it not fear in most cases. They back up to give themselves options and decide the best angle for attack. The dog either has not decided if the stranger is a friend or foe and is keeping his options open.... OR they have already decided they are going to get the person and are just deciding their best angle.
> 
> 2) Lack of warning signs and Stink Eye........ ACDs often will not give a warning that most people will notice before they go after someone. Many don't waste time on raising hackles, growling, baring teeth, etc. They appear to just go off.... But they do give a Stink eye.... Seasoned ACD owners will know exactly what I am talking about. It is this go to hell look they give something or someone they don't like. Think of it as a dirty look.... And many will go straight from stink eye to "I am going to eat you".


I haven't seen him do the "stink eye" to a person, but he's done this to dogs, one came near his frisbee, he just gave them a look.. It wasn't a nice look. They backed off. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> So the question remains how do you deal with it.
> 
> It is not a matter of socialization. You SHOULD be socializing the pup, but nothing is going to change the ACD way of thinking. Merlin has had literally thousands of strangers hands on him. He has done numerous nutritional seminars, responsible dog owner events, events at the state fair, been to schools, etc. But as I said in my original post, in the same situation, he would have flat eaten up the neighbor....All that would be left is a greasy spot in the driveway.
> 
> The OPs dog is just a pup. In six months he is going to be twice the dog. In two years he is going to be a MAN!.


I do a lot of socializing with him, but there was a month or so we didn't do much while he hit puberty, got desexed, went through a rough phase etc. But we've been getting back into it. He's great with people if they're "welcoming" to him, he gets very excited with them. He seems to know instantly if the person isn't a dog person.




JohnnyBandit said:


> You have to Manage the dog. As someone else said, your dog, your rules.
> 
> 1) Good reliable obedience commands. Work on this over and over. They dog should be very sharp.
> 
> 2) Make sure "leave it" is strong and you have a good "OUT"


His obedience is really good, but in situations like the neighbor coming up to him, I'd have no chance. If the neighbor hadn't come up to him like that, I could have had him ignoring the cat and not barking instantly.. "leave it's" with inanimate things is great, but things that are alive not so much. Nothing really to practice it on... What are you referring to with the "out" ?




JohnnyBandit said:


> And MOST importantly.... MANAGE the dog... Control where he goes, who he interacts with and how people interact with him. I am not saying to lock him away.... Don't do that... I am saying be aware. Pay attention to what your focused on. Do not let him obsess over things, and if you don't like something get him out of there..... ACDs are a lot of dog. You have to be strong to own one.


I do this.. I "manage" him. He's at my side 24/7 (lucky for him I don't have a social life), generally every day/situation is controlled and planned by me.. but just cannot rely on people - ever. Like I've learned with my neighbor..


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I've never actually seen one for sale here, but I've heard they're close to $1000 or something crazy like that. I was looking at a place to rent, the guy used to breed & show Mastiff's and he doesn't have a fence around his acreage but he has a few dog runs. Unfortunately, I think this place has already been rented out.. Waiting to hear back.


The good news is you're young and gonna keep this dog long time and possibly have other dogs. So there is no hurry to find maybe a used kennel run/pen.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

JESSJAME5 said:


> Yeah, i don't blame Toby, but it wasn't an ideal situation to be in, and these neighbors already think he's untrained. They asked me a few weeks ago if i've taught him to sit yet!? This dog is incredibly smart, he does all kinds of things (bow, stick em up, bang, weaves my legs, plays piano, rings a bell at the door etc), and they don't think he can even sit! I was offended when they asked that. But yeah, he makes bad impressions on people lol.
> 
> It's hard with the property thing, it's kind of 2 houses on the one lot. We share a driveway down to the middle of the two houses. There's no real property line divider or anything. The space is all shared really, so i don't think Toby realizes how much is his. I can't tell the man to stay off either, him & my landlord who lives upstairs are really good friends. If he didn't yell at him, things would be fine! I just don't understand who does that to someone elses dog, approaching them, threatening them, yelling at them, and going to hit them?! I don't want his old school ways of dog training, i have that under control with positive.. Can't believe he did that. There's no way negative would ever work for Toby, even as a puppy with biting while playing, if i yelped/said ouch, he'd get more excited and come back for more biting. Yelling clearly does the same to him, makes him more worked up.


Its funny living in OZ their whole lives, they arent at least a little familiar with the ACD :/, poor toby, but it doesnt sound like hee was scared to me, it sounds like he was challenging back the man who challanged him. its what a good cattle dog will do, treats & positive stuff works to a point, but occasionally, as i had to do wityh mind, even Buddy, you have to get a little firm with them not in a harsh way but in a 'hey i mean business, now thats enough!' way.

Izze would bark ay anyone she saw, even people she knew & was formally introduced to multiple times, it wasnt an aggression or fear thing, she was like a doorbell, it was just a service (as i believe she meant it) to say 'mom, someone's here' in the best ways she knew how. Josefina does this too. Buddy is a little quietier, but hes a rescue & I've only had him since march 31 of this year, so i think he's finding his niche still. he does bark at the horse, donkeys & goats when they get what he precives as too close to the yard fence LOL, kind of like saying 'hey! thats too close!' i let him do it, it makes him feel good about himself, like he's doing a job


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## hub3 (Jul 10, 2010)

Regardless of breed, you have a reactive dog - at 7 months old, you need to get control sooner than later. Is your dog food motivated? If so, id get used to carrying treats in you car (canned cheese works good) and work on redirecting him to focus on you when he starts to get worked up and reward him generously when he does. You need to work on desensitizing him to what triggers him. Shy, suspicious, etc - does not mean its ok the dog is reactive. A dog can be highly suspicious of strangers, but doesn't mean they freak out whenever they see one.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Its funny living in OZ their whole lives, they arent at least a little familiar with the ACD :/, poor toby, but it doesnt sound like hee was scared to me, it sounds like he was challenging back the man who challanged him. its what a good cattle dog will do, treats & positive stuff works to a point, but occasionally, as i had to do wityh mind, even Buddy, you have to get a little firm with them not in a harsh way but in a 'hey i mean business, now thats enough!' way.


To be honest, until this year the only full cattle dogs I've met/had contact with before have been in Canada & the US when I lived overseas.. But I've met a lot more this year through dog parks, dog training, getting out there more to discover the breed etc. I live in a city, not in the country, so they're not a popular breed here.. I've met a lot of cattle x's, but I find them very, very different.

And with the firmness, I've had to do that occasionally, I never get harsh, but he's in that "adolescent" phase where he likes to ignore me occasionally, he knows what "sit" means, but instead he wants to just stare at me and give me that "eh, i can't be bothered" look.. so it's been challenging. I don't think I ever want kids, haha.





hub3 said:


> Regardless of breed, you have a reactive dog - at 7 months old, you need to get control sooner than later. Is your dog food motivated? If so, id get used to carrying treats in you car (canned cheese works good) and work on redirecting him to focus on you when he starts to get worked up and reward him generously when he does. You need to work on desensitizing him to what triggers him. Shy, suspicious, etc - does not mean its ok the dog is reactive. A dog can be highly suspicious of strangers, but doesn't mean they freak out whenever they see one.


He's food motivated, to a point, once he's in the overly stimulated mind frame, like with the man yelling at him, or when his anxiety is really bad in the car, then he won't care for the food. We also don't have canned cheese here haha. I don't think it would go well in the car here though even if we did have it, the car gets VERY hot just being parked outside. I do carry devon on me all the time when I leave the house with him. Unless we're going somewhere to meet someone else with a dog i.e. a puppy play date, cause of his food aggression. I've been working on desensitizing him, and after the first initial bark, he's over it and will be happy to just watch them if I've got treats.

I put him in the front seat of my car today, rather than in the back. Still had him buckled in, but it's easier to help him through the anxiety when he's in the front, just also difficult while I'm driving. But I noticed it helped him a lot, he was much calmer, still cried a bit when we pulled up at the mechanics where I picked up my sister, then at my dads house. He knows when we're stopping somewhere and he cries a lot. His barking at people from the car is from his anxiety I have no doubt about it, he was much better today just happy to watch people walk by the car. I think he'll have shotgun of the front seat from now on..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 2) Lack of warning signs and Stink Eye........ ACDs often will not give a warning that most people will notice before they go after someone. Many don't waste time on raising hackles, growling, baring teeth, etc. They appear to just go off.... But they do give a Stink eye.... Seasoned ACD owners will know exactly what I am talking about. It is this go to hell look they give something or someone they don't like. Think of it as a dirty look.... And many will go straight from stink eye to "I am going to eat you".


Any pics?

I want to see this. Sorry to butt in, but I am fascinated by canine communication signals and such and this one just sounds especially interesting.


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