# stinky gas and Giardia and a question



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Soo my 7mo pup has had some super stinky gas. In November I was at the vets and mentioned it and they took stool sample. Found Coccidia. treated and retested a new stool sample. Coccidia is gone but found Giardia. Treated for that. Now waiting the required time to retest the stool to see if we are finally in the clear. 

Questions for the forum folks. A local groomer said that most all dogs have Coccidia and Giardia in their systems but are not overwhelmed by it and are fine And Do Not Need To Be Treated For IT. The vet also mentioned that many people and many vets feel that if the dog is asymptomatic then they do NOT treat for Giardia if it is found in the dogs stool. 

OK so here's the thing, my dog appears healthy and happy, is in great weight and shape. She just has some stinky dog farts. Her poop is totally normal looking. 

WHAT would you do if you ran a stool sample and found giardia in it? treat or not?

I ask because I HAVE to go out of town and take my dog with me. IF she retests positive for Giardia I am screwed. I can't leave her behind (board a giardia positive dog who is slightly SA and has never been boarded before in her short life) and I worry about infecting the dogs at the place that I will be staying...

FWIW Dog giardia has not been found to cross contaminate or infect people or cats. But as the vet points out, just becuase it hasn't been proven that it doens't cross species it doesn't hurt to be super careful and keep things clean while the dog has the giardia...pick up poops and wash dog and bedding.


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=739


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I have actually written an article on this matter for our local paper and from the research I did both coccidia and giardia are zoonotic (transferable to people) Coccidia is obviously MORE of a potential risk than giardia but why talke the risk. Many dogs are carriers for both these parasites and can present with out smptoms but that also depends on the load count. For a good fecal test you should be bringing in multipul stool samples as the cysts aren't shed in EVERy poo. Personally I would always recommend treatment until the load count is seriously low or gone altogether. I'm gonna see if I can get the article offa my old ME computer and post it up here.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

If you are out around other dogs, I would treat it. Especially since you are fighting gas.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok... here's the article I wrote on Giardia:

Canine Health Spotlight 
Giardia
By
Kellee ****​Giardia, pronounced GEE-are-DYE-uh, are protozoa that live in the small intestine of dogs and cats. Giardia is found throughout the United States and in many other parts of the world. Infection with Giardia is called 'Giardiasis.' There are many unknowns about this parasite ranging from how many different species there are and which of these species affects our pets. The life cycle is unknown and veterinarians conflict on how common Giardia infections are and when they should be treated. Unlike other parasitic organisms that invade our pets, Giardia can also infect Humans and should be taken very seriously if diagnosed by your vet. It has been observed that as little as 10 cysts can cause disease in humans.

Giardias are self reproducing organisms that divide to increase their numbers and generally afflict young dogs under the age of 6 months or dogs that have an immune deficiency. Like most parasites they depend on being able to overcome the dog’s defense against infection either by its virulence or by the sheer numbers of the organism becoming established. A dog becomes infected by eating the cyst form of the parasite. In the small intestine, the cyst opens and releases an active form called a trophozoite. They attach to the intestinal wall and reproduce by dividing in two. After an unknown number of divisions, this form develops a wall around itself (encysts) and is passed in the feces. The Giardia in the feces can contaminate the environment, water, and infect other animals or people. 

The most common symptom of Giardia is diarrhea. Usually infected animals will not lose their appetite, but may lose weight. The feces are often abnormal, being pale, having a bad odor, and appearing greasy. In the intestine, Giardia prevents proper absorption of nutrients, damages the intestinal lining, and interferes with digestion. Surveys have shown that about 14% of adult dogs and over 30% of dogs under 1 year of age were infected. Once passed the cysts can survive several months in cold weather, and are infective as soon as they are passed. Onset of symptoms is approximately 13 days after ingestion. Without treatment the condition may occur chronically or intermittently, for weeks or months. 

Diagnosis is based on demonstration of the infection and the elimination of other possible causes of diarrhea such as Salmonella or Campylobacter. Giardia cysts may be observed directly in fecal samples or indirectly using an ELISA technique. The ELISA technique requires a kit and some method of reading a color change or production of fluorescence. Studies examining the reliability of some immunoflourescent kits have found them to be over 90% accurate, with relatively few false results, however, the tests are costly and probably only worthwhile where there are a large number of samples to be processed and a technician who is familiar with carrying out ELISAS. Direct examination of feces, using zinc sulphate centrifugal flotation, followed by staining the supernatant with Lugol's iodine, has been found to be up to 70% effective at detecting infection from a single fecal sample. The cyst output is variable so the detection rate may be improved by pooling fecal samples collected over three days. Fecal examination is the cheapest method but is time consuming and requires an experienced technician for reliable results. 
There are several treatments for giardiasis although some have not been FDA-approved for that use in dogs. Fenbendazole is an anti-parasitic drug that kills some intestinal worms and can help control Giardia. It may be used alone or with metronidazole. Metronidazole can kill some types of bacteria that cause diarrhea, but it has been found to be only 60-70% effective in eliminating Giardia from dogs. It can cause liver damage and birth defects in pregnant dogs and has a very bitter taste usually resented by pets.

The easiest way to prevent Giardia from spreading is to clean and treat the affected animals, and disinfect the area with a Quaternary ammonium disinfectant used according to manufacturer's directions or a 1:5 or 1:10 solution of bleach can usually kill the cysts within twenty minutes. Allow the area to dry for several days before reintroducing the animals. Use extreme caution when using quaternary ammonium compounds and bleach solutions. Use proper ventilation, gloves, protective clothing and follow your veterinarian's recommendations. Remember, Giardia of dogs may infect people, so good personal hygiene should be used by adults when cleaning kennels or picking up the yard, and by children who may play with pets or in potentially contaminated areas.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Thanks everyone for the info.

This is the website that my vet gave me in info for Giardia. 
http://www.capcvet.org/recommendations/giardia.html

"Human infections are primarily acquired from other humans; transmission from dogs and cats to humans appears to be rare, if it occurs at all."

"Giardia exists in different "assemblages," which vary in their infectivity for animals and humans. Dogs have mainly Assemblages C and D. Cats have Assemblages A1 and F. Humans are infected with Assemblages A2 and B."

Regarding treating; "Repeated courses of treatment are not indicated in dogs or cats without clinical signs." i take this to mean that if you have an asymptomatic dog then there is no need to treat MORE THAN ONCE.


"Public Health Considerations
Human infection from a dog or cat source has not been conclusively demonstrated in North America. Dogs and cats are not treated for the purpose of preventing zoonotic transmission.
Canine and feline strains of Giardia duodenalis are not known to be infective to immunocompetent human hosts. However, people with increased susceptibility to infection due to underlying disease should consider limiting their exposure to Giardia-infected pets."


So all of this seems to be contrary to the info that dog_shrink provided. HOWEVER I don't think that's conclusive evidence that one side is right and one side is wrong. More investigation is needed. 

I am aware of what Giardia in humans is like and wouldn't want to fool around with it. I am also aware that the treatment plan for giardia was actually more difficult than the actual case of Giardia in 2 friends of mine. In other words the drugs they had to take to kill the giardia made them really really sick, sicker than they had been with the actual giardia and it took months for their systems to recover. But I've yet to be convinced that it's a direct threat to humans in this house. I do use a 10:1 water bleech solution on hard surfaces and etc.

What I really want to get a handle on is what the threat level is to OTHER dogs. 

Again my dog does not have diarreha. At all. Period. No loose stools. Not skinny. just the occasional gas. And by occasional I mean 1 bad fart in a day. Today I haven't noticed anything yet. 

So going back to what to o with an asymptomatic dog, do you just keep pumping poisen in them until you get a clear stool result? And even then like dog_shrink indicated you might not even be able to catch it in a stool sample. 

I'll need to ask the vet what type of test they use.
And get a sample to them on Monday and see where we stand.

But the BIGGER question is this.... What about all the other dogs who have NO symptoms and COULD have Giardia and their owners never knew??? I mean the only reason we caught this was because of a somewhat routine stool sample. What if we picked this up from daycare, the dogs that we used to associate before all this came up, adn we're just gong to keep picking it up from the same sources? Vet said it was in this area.

Yuck. Glad my dog is healthy and not sick. I guess I should count my blessings eh?






luv2byte said:


> http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+2102&aid=739


good site however the article may be from old info. The footnotes section have date fro 1998 and back, However the article mentions a new test avaliable in spring of 04.

The website my vet sent me was from the Companion Animal Parasite Council and was last reviewed and update in January of 2007. So far that seems to be the most up to date info.

Dog_shrink when was your article written and what was the dates from your source information?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I wrote the article in 2007 and the info was from multipul sources including the CDC, AVMA, and other general info sites on veterinary health and none of the reference dates were more than 2 years old. For some reason it didn't copy my foot note on the elise testing info but here is the footnote that accompanied that "Maggie Fisher BVetMed MRCVS" as the reference source.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

thanks Dog_Shrink. So that info was 2005 info? I'm obviously wanting to hope that the 2007 info is more up to date. But I realize that's my predijuse showing b/c I don't want to live in fear of my dog.... 

I'm also afraid of having an infected dog that I can't travel with, can't board. And who will have to live in seclusion until this thing gets killed.

I did look up the pups vet records. I had first taken her to a vet around the block from me, found out I didn't like them and went to a second vet..my current vet. Point is that the first vet did a facal test that was an in-clinic float and smear. They found nothing wrong with the dogs stool samples. Months later when I went tot he 2nd vet they did in-clinic testing (and found nothing wrong) then also sent the same sample out to a lab to do more intensive testing. And it was the lab that found the Coccidia and later on the Giardia. After the first positive for Giardia we did treated and did a second test (while in treatment) and the 2nd test came up also positive for G. 

Point is....I wonder if the pup HAD Coccidia and Giardia all along and the first vets tests were not capable of finding that out??

Also if Giardia is so difficult to detect in tests I wonder if she had the Giardia at the same time that she had the Coccidia and it just didn't show up in the first test results? Because IF she did then she's already infected the dogs and the the environment where I am to go in January. 

. 
Must do more research.

Thanks again for all the help. Always something new to learn.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

In my experience the 2 go hand in hand. If there's one there is most likely the other as well. That is why it is suggested that vets do testing muultipul samples insted of just 1 because of the lack of cyst shedding in each movement. I was always told that if a vet didn't tell you to bring in multipul samples when testing for G and C then you should look for a more experienced vet. Also multipul fecal exams should be performed at 1 month, 3 months and 6 months after treatment and they should actually do a load count. That wayt hey can determine if the amount of giardia in his system is what is deemed "normal" since there always seems to be a presence after treatment. One client had to go thru treatment for 6 months before her vet deemed her pup was at acceptable normal levels. Just an FYI veterinary medical info from 4 years ago really isn't THAT old or inaccurate. It's not very often that they changes protocols on things and new discoveries would be posted monthly at the AVMA.org site. What course of treatment did your vet put your dog on? With panacure (fenbendiazole) being the general form of treatment I'd be curious to see what he prescribed for your pup.

Something to understand about my articles also since it does sound very bland was that I only had a 700 word count givin to me by my publisher and would often have to cut down the quantity of info to meet that standard. Then she cut me back to 500 words to allow for more advertising, so even though I could expand on what is there technically I couldn't. I have had many clients who had gotten dogs from heartland pets (the local mill petshop in the mall) and more than half of them always had to go thru treatment for coccidia and giardia so I'm pretty well versed in the matter even tho the article is rather generalized. If you need any more help or info please don't hesitate to ask.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

In reading the CDC's factsheet on Giardia I see nothing that says that humans can get Giardia from their dogs. It does state that animals get and carry Giardia. But it does not state that people can get Giardia FROM animals.

CDC site researh paper from 2003 
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no11/03-0084.htm

stating that they studied dogs and other animals for possible zooatonic transmission and found 

"Results of phylogenetic analysis are useful in understanding the public health importance of some G. duodenalis parasites. Human G. duodenalis are placed in two distinct lineages (assemblages A and B), whereas the other four lineages contain only G. duodenalis from animals (assemblages C and E, and undefined cat and rat genotypes). One of the assemblages in humans, assemblage B, also contains all beaver isolates and some isolates from muskrats, rabbits, and mice, which strongly suggests that these animal isolates have the potential to infect humans. Giardia from beavers has been suggested as the source of infection for backpackers and some waterborne outbreaks of giardiasis (27,30). Results of our study provide genetic evidence to substantiate these claims."

"Results of this study also indicate that Giardia parasites from beavers, muskrats, mice, and rabbits represent a potential public health concern."

So nothing found on dog-human infection yet....


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

And you may not be able to find a human-dog link unless it can be proven beyond a doubt exactly what type of giardia your dog has. it is obviously always better to err on the side of caution when there are so many unknowns involved. Is it likely a person can get it from a dog... not really but why take the chance. Coccidia on the other hand is VERY zoonotic and the utmost cautions need to be used when dealing with that one. When I would come home from a class with one of my C&G dogs I would practically strip at the door then right into a shower with medical grade body wash... that was fun


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Thanks again DS for the info, I posted before I saw your recent post.

Good to know that C and G are usually seen together, that means we most likely missed it on the first test that found the C. Also means that I've already infected my mom's dogs and environment with G when I visited over Thanksgiving. So I will probably travel with my dog irreguardless of her status. That was really the basis for my paranoia. 

(Mom gets knee replaced in Jan 4th, I go to her house to help her out during the recovery, dog comes with me since she can't stay home, can't be boarded..... and I will pay for mom's dogs to be tested and treated) 

The treatment we used was a 5 day Panacur (fenbendazol) for dogs. We are getting close to the 1 month mark so I will take a sample (or 2) into the vets on Monday. I will treat if the vets tells me to. 

My question to you DS is that While your clients dogs were being treated for the 6 months DID they keep the dog at home the entire time? Or were they safe to take the dog out to walk, to go to Obed classes and etc??

We posted at the same time: I agree better to be safe than sorry. My vet had said the same. But she only said to clean up the poop, wash the dog and the dogs bedding. She also said many vets won't treat an asymptomatic dog BUT since I had a toddler in the house it was better to err on the side of caution and treat the dog anyways. Which is what we did. But I haven't seperated the dog from my daughter,and gone into full bio-hazard lock down mode since that's not what my vet advised....besides bleeching or tossing out all my furniture, rugs, dog beds, dog toys, kids toys and essentially everything that the dog has touched would be impracticle and very expensive to replace...


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Most of those things that you can't replace you can toss in the dryer for a half hour on high heat which should kill the parasites (treat the home as if you had a lice invasion). Shampoo the rugs with HOT water and obviously clean hard surfaces. If your dog is in remission and not actively showing symptoms of G or C then you're probably at that level of acceptable parasite load for public interaction. If your mom's dog isn't young, old, or sick then the chances she contracted/affected it are low esp. if she's not symptomatic. Generally immunocompromised dogs are less able to fight off the parasites and lesslikely able to expell them thru their system with out contamination. 

As far as the dogs I dealt with well they went thru training with me with private lessons although we did go out for socializing with no ill effects when the dog's load count had dropped to non-symptomatic levels.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

It is hard to say if the dog had them all along and it didn't show up. When my puppies have had loose stools, I have taken them, to the vet, and been given medicine that quickly cleared it up. I read many cases where people fight the problem for months before a test shows up the problem. I had a friend that uses a different vet and found coccidia after a couple of months. I think the vets often miss them. 

Whip worms are worse yet.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

I do recall that the Coccida count was very low but the vet felt treatment was warrented b/c I had a young child in the house. I do not rememeber what the load levels for the Giarida was. 

"Generally, it is believed that infection with Giardia is common but disease is rare." taken from the website that Labsnothers provided earlier.

I wonder if my dog, since she is asymptomatic, has the Infection but not the Disease.... Also wonder if potential contamination is a lower risk in a dog with the "infection" and not the "disease". Sort of like TB. (Tuberculosis) People can have TB (be carriers) and not shed it UNTIL they are sick and coughing. 

Which makes me wonder if I got a dog with a LOW risk for transmission b/c of all these factors. Will have to ask the vets on Monday...

Again I am sure that the answers are "It's unknown" and "better to be safe than sorry"

"If your dog is in remission and not actively showing symptoms of G or C then you're probably at that level of acceptable parasite load for public interaction" from D_S. Again makes me think my doggie might just have a very low levels of G and that the vets just playing it safe by treating her.. 

I'm swinging between Denial and Paranoia, Lol.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Generally when your dog is in a state of 'Giardiasis' (or symptomatic) is when the highest risk of infection is present. If your dog is asymptomatic then contamination should be minimal. I would just use precautions such as cleaning up poo immediately, keeping your pet's bum wiped off or brushed out with a bristle brush if they're gonna be around other dogs (to avoid a possible cyst infecting another dog upon butt sniffing). There is a small amount of giardia that is alwas going to remain in the system after a state of giardiasis, which could elevate if the dog has a compromised immune/gi system. That is why it is best to use probiotics as an additional measure to helping set the natural gut flora back to normal balance (making it less succeptable to ANY parasite invasion) and provide the optimum healthy GI tract.

Your typical giardia cyst looks like this








Giardia lamblia (wet mount cycst) 

This organism is a pathogenic flagellate. This animated GIF shows the view one would see as they focus up and down through the organism’s cyst stage in a wet mount preparation.

This microphotographic image was taken at the Oregon State Public Health Laboratory. The OSPHL Parasitology Department is equipped with a Leica DC 200 digital camera mounted on a Leica DMLS microscope. This equipment is used in conjunction with the Division of Parasitic Diseases (DPDx) at the Centers for Disease Control & Prevention (CDC) to aid in the rapid diagnosis of unusual or difficult parasitic diseases using digital images and the Internet.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> That is why it is best to use probiotics as an additional measure to helping set the natural gut flora back to normal balance (making it less succeptable to ANY parasite invasion) and provide the optimum healthy GI tract.


Cool, have had the dog on a probiotic for about a month now.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

my dog was just diagnosed with giardia and is on panacur. for good measure we put the other dog on panacur and i'm in the process of washing the house.

what do i use to wash the dogs?

are they safe to go to the groomer while still on medication?


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

MagicRe said:


> my dog was just diagnosed with giardia and is on panacur. for good measure we put the other dog on panacur and i'm in the process of washing the house.
> 
> what do i use to wash the dogs?
> 
> are they safe to go to the groomer while still on medication?


FWIW no one in our house came down with Giardia. My dog never had diarreah. I picked up poop immediatly. I washed the dog bedding and dryed it in the dryer. I bathed the dog with her normal dog shampoo, maybe 2x. Making sure to get her hind end clean. I did have some doggie wipes that I used to wipe her behind a few times, but not after every poop. As to the groomer question, I called my groomer up and asked her what she wanted me to do. She was not concerned about it and told me to bring the dog in. Her opinion was that there were many dogs in the area that had Coccidia and Giardia and were not symptomatic, therefore no one would ever truely know if the dog was free of Giardia or not unless they did alot of fecal tests. I had also asked my vet when it would be ok to take my dog out in public. I do not recall specificly (it was 3 months ago) but I think she had me stay home the first week, then it was ok to go to obedience school and doggie daycare after that. But check with your vet.


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