# Do you train the dog you're training??



## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

This is more or less for the sake of discussion....

For those of you guys on FB...do you follow this dog training coach page?? The Naughty Dogge 

I find her to be brilliant in her assessment and philosophy of dog training and relationships we develop with our dogs. I 1500% agree with what she brings to the table. Below is a quote from her page in regards to a "mixed tool box" of training techniques...which I willingly admit I have myself. If you don't follow her...you should. I do train the dog in front of me and I have learned to tailor my methods to my dogs. What works for a lot of dogs does NOT work for Lars...and what doesn't work for a lot of dogs DOES work for him. Ocean is another completely creature...and what I do with him is completely different from what I do with Lars. 

So...do you train the dog you are training? Or do you have only one tool in your toolbox??




> The Naughty Dogge
> Cesar Milan asked me how I train dogs. I replied with "I train the dog I am training." Cesar did not understand what I meant, and it appears neither do my peers. Recently I have been getting drilled on my training method.... so here it is.
> 
> Training is about getting into your dog´s head, and understanding what motivates him, what make him smile, and what concerns him. Once you have this, you have "IT"; A relationship with your dog.
> ...


Discuss!


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I'll throw this quote from the Naughty Dogge in there too in regards to training - Never say never:



> Absolutes do not exist in dog training.
> 
> The phrase "I will never," loses its value as you train more dogs.
> 
> ...


Again....discuss!


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

> Cookies cannot buy this. Something this precious and this complex cannot be purchased with a cookie.


Le sigh. I am not buying a relationship with my dog using treats. I am rewarding him for his efforts with treats. Perhaps if people don't understand what PR training is, they should not comment upon it.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I think she means...bribing dogs with cookies and failing to develop a relationship with the dog that will drive it to work WITH you. I see a crap load of people who misuse rewards where they become lures and bribes. The dog doesn't see the value in working with the owner unless the cookie is present and acknowledge by the dog. I see people who put no effort into making training dynamic and plead their dog to do what they ask of them. 

I want my dogs to work with me because the work is fun, exciting and self-rewarding. I still use cookies/food to reward a job well done...but it's not the sole reason my dogs are working with me. The end product is me to go and work my dog without tangible rewards on me. After all...all I have to motivate my dog is myself when I'm working in obedience or agility....there cannot be food, toys, or anything like that on me to reward the dog right then and there.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm sorry, but that whole thing was a screed against PR trainers and a defense of "balanced" training, i.e., training that mixes PR and punishment. 

First of all, "fading the lure" is key to proper PR training. The fact that some people don't know how to do this isn't proof that the lure itself is bad. 

Secondly, I watched a video yesterday of a bear trained to do all sorts of tricks purely using PR. I've seen tigers trained to present a foot for a blood draw and sit calmly through it, purely using PR. These are wild animals with no interest in working with people. If you can train wild animals to sit in a chair and clap their hands with a clicker, you can surely teach a domesticated dog to obey commands without punishment.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There are tons of trainers who use punishment as "lures and bribes" as well, and the dog sees no value in working with the owner unless they think punishement is forthcoming. The trainers make no effort to make training dynamic and threaten their dog into doing what's asked of them.Yet people like this never rail against those kinds of trainers. . .something about PR trainers must make them feel defensive.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think the problem lies not in the cookie or the use of rewards, but with the failure to build on that and "fade the lure." I use treats when I'm teaching something new as well as occasionally to reinforce something I've already taught. I also use them to build a relationship with a dog and get them to start to trust me and open up. Until that dog trusts me enough and knows me enough that it wants to please me or knows that whatever activity we're working on is inherently worth it and fun, the treat is what I have to motivate them with. The hope is, over time, the treat is replaced with other motivators, either the desire to please me or the joy of the activity itself.

I think the way the author worded her opinion on PR training was poor and likely doesn't reflect her whole philosophy on it. I definitely agree with her that getting to know your dog, it's unique personality and being able to "read" it is critical to knowing when to reward and when, at the least, to withhold a reward. When to push harder for perfection and when to back off and accept where they are now.

I would argue, though, that "cookies" are my way of starting to earn this. I have to begin somewhere.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

You know what my "punishment" is for the most part?? A verbal correction of "AHHHH" or "HEY." If my dog breaks a stay...I walk back in on them with a "AH AH AH!" and place them back into place and then jackpot a good stay. PR trainers seem to think the balanced trainers are out there training with electrified barbed wire collars on their dogs. As offended as you get about the idea of balanced training....I find the idea that PR trainers seem to think I'm out there abusing my dogs every day rather unfair.

And for the record...working out of fear - That's definitely not cool for anyone...even though there are plenty of people out there who have that relationship with their dogs. If fear is how you get your dog to work with you, then the big picture is missed completely. When a dog who absolutely understands what stay means and can do that for 3 minutes in a line of other dogs with the handlers gone from the room, will not stay in front of a jump as the handler moves 5' away...then I feel a "correction" of you don't get to play the game will happen. You can't stay in place until I release you...then you don't get to run. That's a "correction" in my book.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> I want my dogs to work with me because the work is fun, exciting and self-rewarding. I still use cookies/food to reward a job well done...but it's not the sole reason my dogs are working with me. The end product is me to go and work my dog without tangible rewards on me. After all...all I have to motivate my dog is myself when I'm working in obedience or agility....there cannot be food, toys, or anything like that on me to reward the dog right then and there.


There's nothing unique about this? Regardless of the type of training used, everyone who ends up in the ring has the same constraints. 

If the author of the stuff you quoted was really just talking about training the dog you're training, then there would be no need for the author to take digs at one particular method. Because some people use a method incorrectly doesn't mean the method is faulty. It's just the same old tired misunderstanding of and misrepresentation of reward-based training. 

Having said that, nothing teaches you to train the dog you're training like having dogs with wildly different personalities. I use the same general technique for all my dogs (rewards based clicker training and some shaping for the most part) but the specifics differ. The boys learn equally well with luring or shaping but Squash picks up shaping lightning quick and can learn in bigger steps of a final skill. Pip needs stuff broken down into tiny, low pressure steps. Maisy needs more direction and doesn't do well with shaping at all. Maisy and Pip are extremely soft and need uber positivity and some cheerleading and help when they are stuck. Squash is good at problem solving what I want. Squash does best with some "corrections" (although I doubt any balanced or aversion trainers would consider them corrections), corrections shut Pip and Maisy down.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> I'm sorry, but that whole thing was a screed against PR trainers and a defense of "balanced" training, i.e., training that mixes PR and punishment.


I didn't read the whole thing and didn't know that this was a site meant to refute PR training in favor of PR plus aversives. I guess I should slow down and read more.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Then why feel the need to bash PR training? I think that not using any punishment other than "aah-ahh" would count as positive for most people (I doubt I could train myself to never say no ). Anyone who defines PR training as "one set of limiting rules" doesn't know what it is. As I said, why do people like that feel the need to bash non-punishment trainers instead of abusive trainers? I wish I could find the blog post Crantastic posted a while ago, in which the author totally turned that one around. I'll see if I can find it.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> I think the problem lies not in the cookie or the use of rewards, but with the failure to build on that and "fade the lure." I use treats when I'm teaching something new as well as occasionally to reinforce something I've already taught. I also use them to build a relationship with a dog and get them to start to trust me and open up. Until that dog trusts me enough and knows me enough that it wants to please me or knows that whatever activity we're working on is inherently worth it and fun, the treat is what I have to motivate them with. The hope is, over time, the treat is replaced with other motivators, either the desire to please me or the joy of the activity itself.
> 
> I think the way the author worded her opinion on PR training was poor and likely doesn't reflect her whole philosophy on it. I definitely agree with her that getting to know your dog, it's unique personality and being able to "read" it is critical to knowing when to reward and when, at the least, to withhold a reward. When to push harder for perfection and when to back off and accept where they are now.
> 
> I would argue, though, that "cookies" are my way of starting to earn this. I have to begin somewhere.


Thank you for you post...I wasn't trying to start a PR war.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Anyone who defines PR training as "one set of limiting rules" doesn't know what it is.


Right. As I said, although I generally use PR, my specific techniques/applications are a bit different with each of my dogs. But because it's all PR apparently that means I only have one tool in my toolbox, according to the quoted authors? That's where I just sort of shut down and don't expect much of a real discussion since the starting definitions/assumptions are faulty IMO.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm with Suzanne Clothier on this - if I'm going to use anything other than positive methods, I'd better think really hard about how and why I'm doing it. I really do think that the vast majority of the time, training can be accomplished with positive methods. The relationship I have with my dog is the most important thing, and I'm not willing to jeopardize it by starting to use +P in our training unless absolutely necessary. Maybe that day will come with a particular dog, but for now it's not a tool I'm going to use.

Dogs don't volunteer to join us in obedience, agility, conformation shows, etc. If we are going to enlist them to join us, I think it's our job to make it the most joyful experience possible. Maybe there are dogs who are hard enough to be joyful even with leash corrections or other punishment, but my dog absolutely isn't one and most dogs I've met don't fall into that category either. 

I think having a wide variety of methods to try is absolutely a good thing, but that doesn't mean that those methods need to be +P. I have seen people train sits, stays, heeling, and other activities in a variety of ways, but all positive with a minimal amount of stress to the dog. It's never a good thing to think there is only one right way to do things, but I don't think "balanced training" is necessarily the answer to that problem.

I will add that I don't think anyone really trains with "purely positive" methods (at least no one that I have met) and I don't have an issue with NRMs and negative punishment. I'm speaking about +P meant to partially shut down the dog, rather than just communicate with him (like an NRM). Some dogs can't even handle NRMs, so of course, knowing your dog is key.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> You know what my "punishment" is for the most part?? A verbal correction of "AHHHH" or "HEY." If my dog breaks a stay...I walk back in on them with a "AH AH AH!" and place them back into place and then jackpot a good stay. PR trainers seem to think the balanced trainers are out there training with electrified barbed wire collars on their dogs. As offended as you get about the idea of balanced training....I find the idea that PR trainers seem to think I'm out there abusing my dogs every day rather unfair.


I've actually argued that you *don't* abuse your dogs, if that helps.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> I've actually argued that you *don't* abuse your dogs, if that helps.


Yes!!! You have....someone on here stated I "kick the shit out of my dogs" last week.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I'm with Suzanne Clothier on this - if I'm going to use anything other than positive methods, I'd better think really hard about how and why I'm doing it. I really do think that the vast majority of the time, training can be accomplished with positive methods. The relationship I have with my dog is the most important thing, and I'm not willing to jeopardize it by starting to use +P in our training unless absolutely necessary. Maybe that day will come with a particular dog, but for now it's not a tool I'm going to use.


Me, too. I never say "never," but I would closely examine my own motivations for using certain techniques. I think with the exception of potentially life-threatening behaviors (like snake training, or training not to chase livestock in areas where doing so could get a dog shot), people usually choose to use those techniques for their own benefit - because it's easier, faster, or they can't figure out how to do it otherwise. Which isn't worse than Hitler. But it's almost never because PR _can't_ work, it's because we humans don't want to put the time and/or effort into a PR solution. 



> I don't think anyone really trains with "purely positive" methods (at least no one that I have met) and I don't have an issue with NRMs and negative punishment.


Honestly I don't think purely positive is even possible, nor do I think most people who use PR think it is either even though PR trainers as a whole are often misrepresented as thinking so.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

To be fair, that was a new poster misunderstanding advice, not an accusation of abuse. That is, unfortunately, what comes into most people's minds when someone says they wouldn't tolerate a behavior or recommends using punishment :/.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

If she believes that "positive reinforcement" is "one set of limiting rules," she's very confused and not educated enough to speak on the merits of training positive reinforcement training. I teach positive reinforcement based obedience classes and treat every dog as an individual, and have literally hundreds of different ways to achieve a desired behavior, but they're all firmly rooted in achieving the behavior I want sans compulsion/force, and then reinforcing it so that it repeats. That is not, in any way, a "limiting set of rules." What a silly statement!

Denise Fenzi has some excellent thoughts on building a relationship that goes beyond toys and foods with your dog, and she does not use force in her training. I highly recommend her to those looking to build a great working relationship with their dog, especially for dog sports.

Truthfully, no one is a "purely positive trainer," myself included. I will, at select times, make the choice to apply some sort of aversive method, not because I "had to," or "this breed needs it," or "positive reinforcement doesn't work." Those are excuses. I don't give excuses, I make educated choices. If I choose an aversive method, it's because I feel the potential benefits outweigh the potential for fall out, not because the dog was asking for it, or because my dog is so special/tough/strong etc that he just NEEDED to be punished. 

ETA: Hey, just read what Elrohen said re:Clothier. I totally agree and that's what I'm getting at.

I dunno, I'm not really a softy. Hell, I use and appreciate bark collars, which are the ultimate sin to some, because I find them to be effective with a total minimum of fall out. But I just cannot stomach the baseless arguments people insist on making against P+ training. But hey, not that long ago, I made largely the same arguments as in the article, and was thoroughly convinced that every collar jerk I gave was "necessary." Now I look back and just *facepalm* LOL


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I don't tolerate my rottweilers biting me to get me to release my grip from their collar. I think that is fairly reasonable...and I would step up the correction if one of them thought it was an option use their teeth on me in order to "correct" me for taking one of their collars.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Not reading the replies right now...

My thoughts were that she has good points but I thought the quip at the end about PR was un-needed and had nothing to do with the point.

I do think there is a problem in dog training where folks get caught too much up in the rules that they forget to ask 'is this working for this dog in front of me?' Most the time though I see this with just plain bad training, it has nothing to do with PR at all. In fact I mostly see this with people who get frustrated when things don't go 'right' and transfer that frustration to the dog via some form of attempted punishment.

The idea that you should work on relationship building is a fantastic one too. I think sometimes we as trainers don't do enough of that. Really learning what makes your dog tick and learning what he is thinking will help you training immensely. Building a relationship where the dog WANTS to work with you is the most important thing. I see a lot of people skip that step and jump straight to some command and it usually doesn't go so well. especially in agility.... so many issues I've seen in my short time that would be solved with working on the relationship between the dog and the handler. And I am talking about myself as well too. A working relationship is the foundation of dog training, not giving cookies or giving a shock with a shock collar. I agree with her there. But that has nothing to do with PR vs aversion vs whatever.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I am also of the mind that purely positive exists only in theory. I've never met a trainer that does not use negative punishment. Many also dip into positive punishment to varying degrees. Myself included.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

MrsBoats said:


> I don't tolerate my rottweilers biting me to get me to release my grip from their collar. I think that is fairly reasonable...and I would step up the correction if one of them thought it was an option use their teeth on me in order to "correct" me for taking one of their collars.


 Yes, and when said to a new poster she/he assumed you meant "kicking the (beans) out of" the dog. Hey, I assume that when someone says they wouldn't tolerate a behavior. If someone doesn't mean that it would probably require an explanation as to what "not tolerating" and/or "stepping up the correction" consists of.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't know anyone who would tolerate their dog biting them to get them to release a grip on the collar.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm not sure why there is this belief that PR training means to ignore all wrong behavior. Last night in class we practiced recalls with 8 dogs in the ring. Watson broke when the woman next to us called her dog, and he ran to me before I called him. I took his collar and lead him back to the original spot, told him to sit, and stay, and walked away again. After he had stayed, through another dog getting up and wandering around even, I went back and rewarded him in the stay.

I consider all of that PR training, though I guess you could say I "corrected" him by taking him back to the spot where he broke the stay. I don't consider that the same as balanced training though. I did correct his bad choice by leading him back, but I did not punish him in any way and set him up to succeed again while rewarding at an easier criteria (before the dog next to him was recalled, which is why he broke the first time, but after he successfully ignored some other distractions).

PR doesn't mean permissive.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Emily1188 said:


> If she believes that "positive reinforcement" is "one set of limiting rules," she's very confused and not educated enough to speak on the merits of training positive reinforcement training. I teach positive reinforcement based obedience classes and treat every dog as an individual, and have literally hundreds of different ways to achieve a desired behavior, but they're all firmly rooted in achieving the behavior I want sans compulsion/force, and then reinforcing it so that it repeats. That is not, in any way, a "limiting set of rules." What a silly statement!
> 
> Denise Fenzi has some excellent thoughts on building a relationship that goes beyond toys and foods with your dog, and she does not use force in her training. I highly recommend her to those looking to build a great working relationship with their dog, especially for dog sports.
> 
> ...



I have taken Denise Fenzi's seminars and I love what she teaches too. She was the one to get me to think of dog training as a relationship with my dogs than what most people consider dog training. I also absolutely recommend what she brings to the training table. As a trainer...you are allowed to take pieces of what people talk about and their training methods. It's not all or nothing. I cannot do leash jerks with Lars because it completely fires him up and his drive starts to spiral out of control. I can't leash pop Ocean because then it's not fun anymore and he's the kind of guy...if it ain't fun, he ain't doing it. I take bits and pieces from all training and tailor my training technique what what fits my dogs. That's what I thought people might see here instead of the anti-PR stuff. I don't discount ANY trainer if they have a something large or small I can tweak or use that will work for my dogs. I think sometimes people get closed minded to something if that trainer uses certain method...or they aren't creative to see how they can take a method and retool it to suit their philosophy. 

Right now I'm working Utility and for years...go outs have been trained by putting food on the stantion and sending the dog out there to the food. I don't want to teach it like that. So, I had Mr. Boats make a large box to go in front of the ring gate where Lars will sit and the food goes out to him. I don't want him to smash himself into the ring gates looking for food which will end up with me having to "fix that." So I'm teaching a go out as a position in the ring for him to find on his own without the ring gate in the picture. I want muscle memory to work in his favor. It will take me longer to teach him but I won't have to worry about working through him shopping on the gate or slamming himself into the gate. I'm avoiding the need for a correction that doesn't need to happen. No one really teaches it like that around here...and some people think I'm crazy to do it this way. THIS is what I was talking about when training the dog in front of you...and not doing what everyone else does because that's the way it's always been done. Food on the ring gate stantion ain't going to work for my dog...so I dig deep into my tool box.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> THIS is what I was talking about when training the dog in front of you...and not doing what everyone else does because that's the way it's always been done. Food on the ring gate stantion ain't going to work for my dog...so I dig deep into my tool box.


Isn't that what PR training sort of is in the first place? It was a movement of people who decided that leash pops and the forced fetch weren't the only options. Maybe some have taken it too far into it's own limitations, but in general I think as a method, it involves far more creative problem solving than some of the old school training I have seen and read about.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

But then there are the labels like balanced and PR...I think they get in the way. People love to label stuff don't they. Most people in agility say there are no corrections in agility because you don't want to slow the dog down. I verbally correct downed bars, pull dogs off the course for blown, airborne contacts or no start line stays. I have a dog who doesn't care about doing agility "correctly" as long as he's doing it. So I'm more "balanced" in agility....and those hard core agility people know Lars busts my chops in the ring every chance he gets but they are okay with how I train there because he's not a quirky border collie. But, in obedience I'm more "PR" than most people. It shows in how much he loves to work there versus the robot dogs who work out of fear. 

I think a lot of people spend too much time on finding a label for how they train and then analyzing that label and the labels they put on other trainers....just train your dog with methods that work for your dog. I completely agree that people have taken it too far. I honestly don't know the training quadrants. I don't need the training quadrants...and I don't want to know the training quadrants. I just want to train my dog and have a great time doing it with a dog that wants to be my partner.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I really don't think what you are saying is all that different than what anyone else is saying, but when you bust out of the gate with an article that specifically labels PR as "one set of limiting rules," it doesn't exactly make the point you intend to make.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I can see the philisophical debates. . .is it ever right to use force/coercion/punishment to make our dog play our silly games? It would make me angry to see someone using force-based training for games (I count hunting as a game). It's not important; how can we justify hurting a dog for the sake of our games? It would be like seeing a parent slap their kid around for being bad at soccer :/.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Labels can get in the way, but I think they are ultimately more useful than not. I've made the same point about the term BYB, which some people hate. Yes, they can be taken incorrectly, given different definitions, and misunderstood, but at some point we have to call it something. How else would we begin the conversation? I am much more likely to call up a training center that boasts "positive methods" on their website, than one that uses "balanced" training. Now, the instructors are my PR facility are for prongs in certain cases, correcting a stay by placing the dog back in position, etc, but at least I can tell from their website that they basically train with the same mentality that I do, so I gave them a call. Now that I train there, I have a more subtle understanding of each of the trainers and how they solve problems, but you can't get that across on a website.

How else would we talk about things if we never labelled? How would people new to dog training learn? We can say that we use whatever methods necessary, but new people don't realize that doesn't mean beating our dogs, or hanging them up by a choke chain. By saying PR, it implies a certain methodology and philosophy about training and then we can go from there.

Not everyone has to understand training quadrants, but some of us like that sort of thing. Personally, I have found much more creativity in how I look at dog training once I learned about the quadrants. Suddenly I had new tools to look at problems, instead of the old dog training books that prescribe the same thing for every dog ("pull up on the choke chain until your dog sits, then release pressure"). Not everybody finds the same thing useful, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful to others.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Just curious how do you correct in agility? I've just never seen it done before. Now if we're talking about kenneling the dog and them forfeitting their turn for breaking their stays, then yeah... I see that done a lot. Some dogs need start-line stay bootcamp. Mia is one of those. So we either do a running start or she gets corrected when she breaks her stays and is repositioned. the correction is her not getting her turn to play though. It's not a physical thing like many people think of when they hear 'correction'.

See this is the problem: 'correction' means something different to everyone. If we're talking about 'ah-ahs' and putting the dog back into a stay or something if they break it or kenneling them if they won't get their act together, then yeah I use corrections. I think there's a disconnect between those thinking correction = physical correction like a leash pop or shock and then those that think correction = any negative consequence. Many people refer to themselves as +R just because they don't use the former. I've never seen anyone completely avoid the latter but I suppose people try?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I 100% agree with the artical and everyone else is reading what they want to see, and not what this person has actually written lol. I do not train a method I train a dog, I learn from every method out there and I use what I need for the dog I am training, which is what the trainer is saying, she is NOT against ANY type of training, she is not anti PR or anything else, she is not even promoting balanced methods, she is promoting learning all you can and tayloring your methods to the dog you are training.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Miss Bugs said:


> I 100% agree with the artical and everyone else is reading what they want to see, and not what this person has actually written lol. I do not train a method I train a dog, I learn from every method out there and I use what I need for the dog I am training, which is what the trainer is saying, she is NOT against ANY type of training, she is not anti PR or anything else, she is not even promoting balanced methods, she is promoting learning all you can and tayloring your methods to the dog you are training.


LOL I must have misunderstood what "one set of limiting rules" means.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Miss Bugs said:


> she is promoting learning all you can and tayloring your methods to the dog you are training.


But I don't think anyone would disagree with that?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

can see the point of relationship, it's my first foundation as I need and work towards willing participants... I can't do it without the dog/animal giving me something to work with.. the comment training the dog in front of you.. to me is like spending 20+ years with prey driven dogs (so easy to use what they are always offering up non stop) and then work with a guardian breed... Arka's little pet name is "sloth" give me something Arka...  sleeping, more sleeping and more sleeping.. little sparks from him that I cherish to take full advantage of them when they happen.. then back to sleeping and let him sleep,, 20 minutes into beginners OB class and he is out for the count on the floor lol .. and I let him.. and still be able to accomplish all that I have with the other dogs with a stronger and stronger working relationship.. strong relationship is always the ice breaker of which way they teeter to choose you over better dog stuff going on ... I rely more on relationship then my ability to focus on training direct skills as I did when I first started dogs. totally agree the best method to reach them for teaching is decided by the dog not the trainer.. and we all come out winners in the end..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Amaryllis said:


> Le sigh. I am not buying a relationship with my dog using treats. I am rewarding him for his efforts with treats. Perhaps if people don't understand what PR training is, they should not comment upon it.


Thank you. My thoughts exactly. 

Plus, who says positive reinforcement is "just one tool". Or if it is, it's a Swiss army knife. 

I use positive reinforcement during shaping differently than if we're playing a game. Heck, I use Dora the Explorer on TV as a reward. 

She's right in that you need to get to know your dog and learn how to read him/her. But what that has to do with using "just" positive reinforcement I don't know. I mean, if I'm learning what makes Wally smile, the fact he's smiling about it means it's rewarding to him - so I can use it. Whatever that is. I also let Wally progress at his pace and run with ideas that he has. 

So, yes, I'm "training the dog in front of me".

Also, it is very difficult to train with "only" positive reinforcement, even if the trainer says that's all she's doing. Withholding rewards, no response, no-reward markers, etc. All of those are outside of +R. Redirection is as well (the redirection is not a reward in response to behavior, so it's not +R). 

I agree with her points about building a relationship with the dog, observing the dog, and trying to figure what/why might be wrong if you're not getting the results you want. Wholeheartedly. 

I disagree in the no "I would never.." part. I can think of things I would never do to Wally:

-Deliberately scare/frighten him
-Physically hurt/harm him
-Neglect his needs
-Disrespect his personality/traits for the sake of "getting something trained"
-Disregard his communication/thought process. I may not "agree" all the time, but I won't ignore it either.
-Hold him responsible for things I've never taught


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> THIS is what I was talking about when training the dog in front of you...and not doing what everyone else does because that's the way it's always been done. Food on the ring gate stantion ain't going to work for my dog...so I dig deep into my tool box.


And in that, I agree - not sure what the part about "buying with cookies" is needed in order to make a point that basically comes down to "think creatively, build a relationship, and run with what the dog is giving/showing you".


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I think people were reading into what they wanted to see with the quotes I gave. Miss Bugs....you nailed it. Then judgement was made that the author doesn't understand PR...if you look at the dogs she's owned and what she's done with the wide variety of breeds and backgrounds her dogs had, I think she does understand different styles of training. 

http://www.naughtydogge.com/my-dogs

As for correcting agility goofs...downed bars is Lars' biggest challenge still. He will smash his way through a 12" jump, a 16" jump a 24" jump because he can and he will not adjust his speed or his striding to get himself over a jump. I have tried and tried and tried to make him care about the bars staying up. I have tried to stop him immediately after the bar came down with an "AHHHHHH" and placed him into a down while I reset the bar. I do know now when the bar is his fault or my fault. I won't correct him for something dropped because my handling sucked. But in class, I have also had him challenge me with growling at me while refusing to down when I have told him to for a dropped bar where he didn't think he was wrong. When that happened...I was hands off with him but I forcefully keep giving the down command while he glared at me and growled a low growl for me to back off. I had the pole in my hand and whacked the ground with it and told him "DOWN" and he still postured and growled at me with a hard stare. I chose that battle and didn't want to push him where he would bite me and that would open up a whole other can of worms I didn't want to deal with in class. When it looked like he wouldn't down...I told him to kennel up in his x-pen which he did. Then I told him to down over and over (he was still glaring and growling) as I closed in the x-pen making it smaller and smaller so I could control his space without touching him. When he finally had no room to really move...he snorted hard at me, threw his glare to the floor and finally went down. That was a 5 minute ordeal and the rest of the class was grey. We let the rest of our class run and then I took him out for our next go...and we both went out there like nothing happened 20 minutes ago and he ran clean. I "won" that battle in a way I managed to maintain control but not letting it escalate where it could have gotten very ugly, very fast. 

The last time he ran agility at a trial was in March and he hasn't run since because he was a royal jerk. I think that is because I am now running Ocean where it has always been "our game." He was breaking start lines all day and I just kept escorting him firmly back to his crate with no run.The last run we did, he was on the start line and was in front of a tunnel. Right before he broke and I got about 4' away...he gave me this hard glare like "kiss my ass" and shot into the tunnel. I shouted NO while he was in the tunnel and he came out and sat in front of me. I said "let's go" and turned to walk to the leash runner with next him to me. As we're walking...he spritely walks across in front of me and slowly walks through the same tunnel again. It's a clear tunnel and I can see him looking at me the entire time he's in there. OMG..I thought my head was going to explode. I get his collar on him and start to lead him from the ring...once we cross the fencing, he slams on his brakes donkey style refusing to move. So now, I have to take his collar double fisted and back my way through the crowd. We get about 5' from the ring and Lars starts to growl at me with the hard stare...so here I am dragging my growling rottweiler backwards through a crowd of agility people with me trying to remain calm and firm telling him to "knock it off." That's probably the closest I've ever come to wanting to knock him out. Once I got through the crowd...he stopped growling. I walked him forcefully with the collar twisted in my hand to make it tight and then threw him in his crate for the rest of the day. I scratched him and let Ocean (who was too young to run at the time) stay out of the crate the rest of the trial....that was his punishment/correction. That and I haven't run him in agility other than a couple of runs here at the house since. He and I have a weird relationship in agility...he drives our agility team bus and because agility is less balanced than obedience is....he's gotten away with stuff because whole mantra of "there are no corrections" in agility that I have tried to follow to the best of my ability. So, I have a dog that basically thinks "I'm going to do what I want...what are you going to do about it??" Obviously, that all or nothing training plan hasn't worked out well for my dog there.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly, I have no experience with rotts and agility so I won't comment there. Bar knocking though would make me wonder if there's not a jumping issue (like form, etc) that is the problem rather than he just doesn't care about jumps? I know a lot of dogs, especially border collies since they tend to jump very flat, that need trained and retrained how to jump and not knock bars. Like I said, I don't know... I'm sure you've already thought of that.

I see a lot of issues stemming from correcting in agility. A lot of dogs that run 'obedience agility' where they do the obstacles but without any real drive or joy. A lot of dogs I've seen will shut down when they realize their trainer is upset with them. There is a dog in my class that is this way and his owner's frustration affects his performance tremendously. I think that is why people don't correct in agility. It is so easy to botch a dog up, especially if the dog isn't that drivey. that speed can be impossible to re-gain. It's a game to me so I want it to be fun at the end of the day.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Just curious how do you correct in agility? I've just never seen it done before. Now if we're talking about kenneling the dog and them forfeitting their turn for breaking their stays, then yeah... I see that done a lot. Some dogs need start-line stay bootcamp. Mia is one of those. So we either do a running start or she gets corrected when she breaks her stays and is repositioned. the correction is her not getting her turn to play though. It's not a physical thing like many people think of when they hear 'correction'.
> 
> See this is the problem: 'correction' means something different to everyone. If we're talking about 'ah-ahs' and putting the dog back into a stay or something if they break it or kenneling them if they won't get their act together, then yeah I use corrections. I think there's a disconnect between those thinking correction = physical correction like a leash pop or shock and then those that think correction = any negative consequence. Many people refer to themselves as +R just because they don't use the former. I've never seen anyone completely avoid the latter but I suppose people try?


Exactly....in my world, a correction is anything that is used to communicate to the dog they made a mistake with something they know. If a dog is learning something...there are no corrections at all until they have a full understanding of what I am asking of them. For corrections, it could be an 'Ah Ah...could be a leash pop...could be anything that makes the dog understand their actions/behavior was not desired. In my world...the correction fits the mistake...and I don't bring out an elephant gun for an oops like a crooked sit. But if my two boys decide to duke it out like their sole mission was to send other on a one way trip the emergency vet...I would be throwing furniture and shouting at them to get them to stop if that's what it took.

I guess why I have always called myself "balanced" is because I use corrections...most of them are verbal. Physical corrections aren't used often with me with the exceptions of repositioning a dog or requesting a "down" for something like a downed bar. Leash corrections in obedience aren't useful with my dogs. But I will pull back if my guys decide they are going to try to rip my rotator cuff to shreds because they want to haul my butt to a fire hydrant and pee on it. They know how to use their strength and they aren't afraid to do so. Those are my corrections outside of the line I have to walk with Lars in agility. But you're right...the second someone sees "correction" they automatically go to physical strong-arming in their head.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> But if my two boys decide to duke it out like their sole mission was to send other on a one way trip the emergency vet...I would be throwing furniture and shouting at them to get them to stop if that's what it took.


That is not a correction; that is reacting to an emergency. If one of my dogs was running into a busy street or in a fight with a raccoon or something crazy like that, I'd do whatever I could to stop the dog, which might mean tackling or roughly grabbing it. That has nothing to do with training.

Also, if using verbal corrections makes you a non-positive trainer, I guess very few of us here are positive.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

At the mention of Denise Fenzi I started reading her blog and found this great article that applies here. My issue with the word "correction" is that it's now associated with a meaning other than "teaching" or "showing the dog how to be correct". It seems that you take offense to people understanding "correction" as a physical punishment, but as Denise points out, I think that's pretty much what it means at this point. You might disagree with it, but if that's how most people understand the word, that's how they're going to take comments on a forum about "corrections". 

http://denisefenzi.com/2013/03/20/what-is-a-correction/


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Honestly, I have no experience with rotts and agility so I won't comment there. Bar knocking though would make me wonder if there's not a jumping issue (like form, etc) that is the problem rather than he just doesn't care about jumps? I know a lot of dogs, especially border collies since they tend to jump very flat, that need trained and retrained how to jump and not knock bars. Like I said, I don't know... I'm sure you've already thought of that.
> 
> I see a lot of issues stemming from correcting in agility. A lot of dogs that run 'obedience agility' where they do the obstacles but without any real drive or joy. A lot of dogs I've seen will shut down when they realize their trainer is upset with them. There is a dog in my class that is this way and his owner's frustration affects his performance tremendously. I think that is why people don't correct in agility. It is so easy to botch a dog up, especially if the dog isn't that drivey. that speed can be impossible to re-gain. It's a game to me so I want it to be fun at the end of the day.


Rotts are front ended heavy dogs and sometimes their build will make it hard for 24" and 26". Ocean doesn't bar knock because he will arc over a jump and use his rear more. Lars is going so fast...he flings himself over the jump with his front end. He jumps very flat when he's in drive. I have all of the Susan Salo jump grid DVD's, I have the Linda Mecklenburg developing jumping skills book, I have gone and taken privates with Amanda Shyne and Lo Baker to get more grids to work him with. He will keep bars up in grids because he's not running with speed and he will use his rear end to power over the jumps and he'll jump with an arc. Especially at a trial...he runs full bore and will not collect. I'm usually about 6 - 8' behind him most of the time and so I can't cue collection unless I send him to something and I can get in front of him. I have tried so much...he's has gotten better...but he will still drop 5 jumps in a straight away because he can't be bothered to adjust his stride. When he hits them...its with his chest and he roars when he lands with every jump. I took a seminar once with the late great Paulette Swartzendruber where Lars plowed thru more jumps than he went over. She said he runs on pure adrenaline. Great...

My friend who I am taking classes with Ocean said I couldn't have found a harder dog to learn agility on if I tried. ROFL


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have seen a few trainers (not real life, just online) that really avoid verbal corrections and no reward markers. (not mentioning any names lol) I think that is overkill to the extreme. 

I've gotten myself in trouble before for telling someone (online again) Mia and I have had to have a come to Jesus a few times. Their response was that they were not going to abuse their dog. For some reason people automatically imagine shock collars and all sorts of bad things when you mention any kind of correction. Mia needs to be forced to calm herself down sometimes. I have to be harsher with her than with Summer. That is not anywhere near 'abuse'. In fact our 'come to Jesus' is just keeping her in a down-stay until she calms down. But yet you mention correcting her for trying to pick a fight and people think you're smacking the dog around. Definitely a disconnect in what every person feels is a 'correction'.

I agree, dealing with two fighting dogs isn't training. It's more along the lines of disaster response. I've kicked Mia before when she's about to do something dangerous. I certainly wouldn't say to do that when you're training, it was just the only thing i could do at the time to keep her from darting into danger.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MrsBoats said:


> Rotts are front ended heavy dogs and sometimes their build will make it hard for 24" and 26". Ocean doesn't bar knock because he will arc over a jump and use his rear more. Lars is going so fast...he flings himself over the jump with his front end. He jumps very flat when he's in drive. I have all of the Susan Salo jump grid DVD's, I have the Linda Mecklenburg developing jumping skills book, I have gone and taken privates with Amanda Shyne and Lo Baker to get more grids to work him with. He will keep bars up in grids because he's not running with speed and he will use his rear end to power over the jumps and he'll jump with an arc. Especially at a trial...he runs full bore and will not collect. I'm usually about 6 - 8' behind him most of the time and so I can't cue collection unless I send him to something and I can get in front of him. I have tried so much...he's has gotten better...but he will still drop 5 jumps in a straight away because he can't be bothered to adjust his stride. My friend who I am taking classes with Ocean said I couldn't have found a harder dog to learn agility on if I tried. ROFL


I am spoiled. Summer has been the easiest starter agility dog ever. She's fairly fast but not turbo speed (I can keep up), she's the most biddable dog I've ever owned, easy to motivate, cheery and easy going, reads my body language well, athletic, fearless, etc.... Mia's harder in many ways but I am sure Nextdog is going to be a learning experience. Papillons spoil you sometimes. 

Good luck with Lars though! He sounds like an incredible dog (and a lot of dog!)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If your friend stepped in front of a truck without looking, you'd pull her out of the way by her hair if you had to. But I wouldn't recommend jerking your friend around by the hair in a non-emergency situation . Emergencies aren't training.

To me, the phrase "come to Jesus" means a life-threatening situation. Like people choking a dog (or person) to unconsciousness or beating him to a bloody pulp. I would probably look at you a little askance if you said that. . .


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I can only imagine your head as you dragged him through the agility people and back to his crate....I've had horses that are stubborn like that and god it takes a lot to control your temper....difference is maybe we try not to take it as a personal affront to us which I think is why most people let their ego override and then it becomes a war.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> If your friend stepped in front of a truck without looking, you'd pull her out of the way by her hair if you had to. But I wouldn't recommend jerking your friend around by the hair in a non-emergency situation . Emergencies aren't training.
> 
> To me, the phrase "come to Jesus" means a life-threatening situation. Like people choking a dog (or person) to unconsciousness or beating him to a bloody pulp. I would probably look at you a little askance if you said that. . .


See to me it is just taking a hard, non-permissive line.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

We used "come to jesus moments" on the horses sometimes...they were never as bad as they sounded or looked.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> To me, the phrase "come to Jesus" means a life-threatening situation. Like people choking a dog (or person) to unconsciousness or beating him to a bloody pulp. I would probably look at you a little askance if you said that. . .


Having a 'come to jesus meeting' here is a pretty common phrase, at least around here. It just basically means "the crap is stopping right here, right now."

I've had that meeting with Thud. Who, had he kept engaging in behavior was going to seriously injure (or worse) one of my kids. He got yelled at, yanked out of the situation by his collar, and shoved in his crate. I am using the words yank, yell, and shoved pretty deliberately. This was both training and emergent situation. Less rough methods would have worked for one of the other dogs quickly enough to save my kid a broken neck, they would not have Thud. So I resorted to what would, quickly. It was training in the sense that he NEVER did that shit again. 

I have ALWAYS said that there are situations where I don't object to harsh aversives, and those situations are life and death where I never want the dog to do it again. a 70+ lb dog herding a toe-walking autistic kid down a flight of stairs is one of those. So, you know. In that sense it fits your definition.

But only incidentally, because the crap that was stopping was urgent.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> See to me it is just taking a hard, non-permissive line.


 Me too...that's when I say, I don't tolerate a dog biting me. Biting me as I take a collar would warrant a "come to jesus" meeting. For me, if the drill sargent head game didn't work for a dog that wanted to use his teeth on me to touch him. I would go double handed scruff/face grab with maybe the front feet coming off the ground. with a tone of voice to match. That would be a rottweiler come to jesus meeting. I've only had to break that out once with Lars...when he was a year old, he did decide he was going to try to use teeth on my forearms to get me to let go of his collar when he marked our couch and I was taking him over to the scene of the crime. That's the only time Lars ever got lifted off the ground by his face. He came close at the agility trial where he thought growling at me was a great choice...too many witnesses there. LOL


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I didn't actually get at all offended by the article, though it does leave me with the impression that the person who wrote it has some funny ideas about PR trainers and training. 

Overall, I agree with the concept, but I'm pretty sure it's almost a given. Almost, I say, because I do think people present themselves a little too rigidly, sometimes. I also think that the presentation is by virtue of who they're dealing with and in what format. Ie: I still won't be recommending anything but positive reinforcement or seeking a professional to anyone on an online forum. I don't know the dogs, I don't know the owners, I can't see the issue, and I don't want the responsibility. I think if more people realized this was a factor at play, they would stop assuming we're all so... rigid in our views.

I've used (relatively minor) leash corrections. I use the word no, and no-reward markers are a big part of how I train my dogs, along with treats. I don't treat them all the same: I can't. I have one who 'no' will shut down, one who is deaf, one who will work for the thrill of success, and one who is a hard headed independent beast. One has effectively no drive for anything, one has a huge food drive, one has work ethic, and one works for tug. They're not the same dog; they're not even close to the same dog. I think this is true of most PR people. 

I'm also not above using harsh (for the dog) aversives and deterrents in situations, and with dogs, who need something stopped *NOW*. I mentioned yelling and yanking Thud around. I've fried the daylights out of dogs with ecollars as part of snake training. I would do both of those things again in a heartbeat. 

The thing for me is, that most people who own dogs and are having problems with teaching them something simply don't fall into those 'life and death' issues, where you get a situation under hand or you risk the dog or someone else's life. There is no urgency, and when there is no urgency I don't see a lot of benefit in anything harsher than a no reward marker to communicate 'no, not that, try it again'. There's no risk with those methods, because the risk of the behavior continuing is much, much less than the benefit of it stopping right now. I don't stop a dog herding an unsteady kid down the stairs or messing with venomous snakes, I risk a dead person or dog. That means it has to stop RIGHT FREAKING NOW, because every other incident is a risk of life and limb. Dog biting people? Similar thing, with risk to the dog being put down AND serious injury to a person. That risk is more dire than the risk of a dog being damaged by a harsh correction.

Dog won't sit? There is no risk to the dog continuing to not sit on command, or not sitting on command quickly. Therefore the risk of fallout is too great to be worth it.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> Me too...that's when I say, I don't tolerate a dog biting me. Biting me as I take a collar would warrant a "come to jesus" meeting. For me, if the drill sargent head game didn't work for a dog that wanted to use his teeth on me to touch him. I would go double handed scruff/face grab with maybe the front feet coming off the ground. with a tone of voice to match. That would be a rottweiler come to jesus meeting. I've only had to break that out once with Lars...when he was a year old, he did decide he was going to try to use teeth on my forearms to get me to let go of his collar when he marked our couch and I was taking him over to the scene of the crime. That's the only time Lars ever got lifted off the ground by his face. He came close at the agility trial where he thought growling at me was a great choice...too many witnesses there. LOL


Oh My dog bit me all the time (well better now) but I think its a diff kind of bite-- the grab your sleeve biting and tugging and take your whole forearm in her mouth to mouthe on you-- excitement tail wagging off the hook excitement biting....
We did have to take firmer methods with her.... Our training was different (remember she is the spit treats out of her mouth gal, she'd rather bite your sleeve)...


Now with my Berner boy I have to be careful with the word NO it shuts him down he is so sensitive (I find it harder in some ways with such a soft dog) and hes so Big and sometimes stubborn? (he will sit down and not move )... Luckily he responds super well to treats, and praise and smiles and sunshine..

So Yes I do train the dog that I have-- and it takes different things for each dog--- I finally _GOT_ what was meant by the title of the Post!!!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> LOL I must have misunderstood what "one set of limiting rules" means.


And I must not understand learning theory at all if I think there are tons of ways to train a dog without use of coercion, force, and pain. 



KBLover said:


> And in that, I agree - not sure what the part about "buying with cookies" is needed in order to make a point that basically comes down to "think creatively, build a relationship, and run with what the dog is giving/showing you".





Laurelin said:


> Not reading the replies right now...
> 
> My thoughts were that she has good points but I thought the quip at the end about PR was un-needed and had nothing to do with the point.
> 
> ...


I agree with KBLover and Laurelin. The basic ideas of reading and knowing your dog, thinking creatively, and building a relationship are fabulous; the dig at PR training was completely unnecessary.

ETA: I read a few of the trainer's other posts. She does seem to have a basic understanding of operant conditioning, but it sounds as though she's encountered numerous incompetent PR-based trainers. For example, 


> LEARNING THEORY REVISITED
> 
> While behaviour and training follow scientific rules all learned in the laboratory, we with our own dogs have dynamic relationships, households, and other complexities going on. Limiting training simply to Skinner’s four quadrants of reinforcement and punishment does not allow for the complex thinking and emotions that our dogs have. It doesn’t consider that the one dog that came to class and is panicking might only be panicking because of the car ride to class, or another uncooperative dog cannot learn because he is cold.
> 
> Positive Reinforcement, for most dog trainers, relies on the use of food as a reward. There are many other rewards than just food, however, food seems to be the most frequently and commonly used. Again, if the dog is over stimulated and has adrenaline coursing through his system, he will be unable to eat, making the food reward useless. Or some dogs simply aren’t hungry, also meaning that another way needs to be used to train them. So while most dogs are trained successfully with positive reinforcement, we must remember that it does not allow for the emotions and inner goings on of a dog.


Yes, early behaviorists referred to the mind as a "black box" and generally ignored anything that couldn't be empirically measured; later psychologists re-introduced the inner workings of the mind and built on the foundation laid by earlier work. Skinner's school of radical behaviorism set the stage for the field of cognitive psychology. 

The idea that PR-based trainers would ignore obvious signs of discomfort and stress and power through the scheduled training session or insist that food be the only reinforcer is ludicrous. PR-based trainers I've encountered understand that training doesn't occur in a lab setting and consider a variety of factors when conducting sessions. 

I get what she's saying: operant conditioning doesn't address every factor in training. But, I've never seen anyone train as if they are in a lab setting (unless, of course, they are in a lab setting). I even joked with one of my instructors that training a dog was nothing like working with a rat in a Skinner box; she laughed and agreed. Competent trainers take a more holistic approach by considering multiple factors that influence training decisions.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Having a 'come to jesus meeting' here is a pretty common phrase, at least around here. It just basically means "the crap is stopping right here, right now."
> 
> I've had that meeting with Thud. Who, had he kept engaging in behavior was going to seriously injure (or worse) one of my kids. He got yelled at, yanked out of the situation by his collar, and shoved in his crate. I am using the words yank, yell, and shoved pretty deliberately. This was both training and emergent situation. Less rough methods would have worked for one of the other dogs quickly enough to save my kid a broken neck, they would not have Thud. So I resorted to what would, quickly. It was training in the sense that he NEVER did that shit again.
> 
> ...


 LOL, I grew up overseas and still don't get a lot of American idioms. But if nobody's gonna die, where does Jesus come in?  

See, I've never even once had success with using harsh punishment to make something NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. It may have made the dog cower and cringe the next time they did it, or run away so I couldn't reach them, but doing it again? Oh yeah. So I must either have bad timing, or I'm not good at communicating what I'm mad about, or my dogs are defective .


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

BernerMax said:


> Oh My dog bit me all the time (well better now) but I think its a diff kind of bite-- the grab your sleeve biting and tugging and take your whole forearm in her mouth to mouthe on you-- excitement tail wagging off the hook excitement biting....
> We did have to take firmer methods with her.... Our training was different (remember she is the spit treats out of her mouth gal, she'd rather bite your sleeve)...
> 
> 
> ...


Ocean is an excitement biter...when he does something great and I make a big deal about it, he's in the air flying at my arms trying to grab sleeves, tugs, and/or hands. I joke about it that "If I'm not bleeding...I'm not training." I do carry a bag full of neosporin and band-aids to agility class. Every week, I'm bleeding from some where. That is something completely different and I have not given a CTJ meeting for that for him ever. I would get whistled off the agility course if he started biting at me. So, that's an AH AH AH and I get very still when he starts to do it now at 18 months. That will get him to come down a lot. The other night...he got a stern "HEY!!!!!!" because he made a celebratory leap 5' off the ground at my face and I didn't see it coming because I couldn't matrix move my way out of the line of fire. I felt a canine tooth on my temple and a canine tooth on my jaw and didn't leave a mark. Made my breath hitch a bit though. That stern "HEY" got the point the across we don't fly at mommy's face no matter how happy we both are. 


That is completely different when a dog is being led or restrained by the collar and they start to alligator roll in the collar and start lunging at your hand and forearm to get you to let go. Oh no...that don't fly here. The verbal "Enough!" with the collar twist didn't work and he kept trying to get a piece of my arm. So I went to plan B with face grab and lift. He stopped trying to grab at me when his front feet came off the ground. I wasn't hanging him or choking him...but I wanted him to realize that I will touch you whenever and however I wish. Even if he did really nail me...I wouldn't have let go because he would have won and I would have lost a ton of respect. 

I don't think I would try the face/grab/lift with now with him...he could really hurt me if he wanted to. That's why I went CTJ meeting when he was a year old...to set that thought in his head that it wasn't a good idea to bite mom and mean it. But I don't want him to ever know that he has the ability to take me out...so I control things like his space with the x-pen. I didn't care what happened at that agility trial when I was dragging him backyards through that crowd but I was not going to let go of that collar. If I had...he would have won the war and the battle. Then he would know he did have the power to back me off of him with a growl. Once again...if he nailed me (and I was waiting for it) I wouldn't have let go. I think he thinks that I'm just crazy enough I would attempt to go toe to toe with him if it came down to it and he's not willing to really test that theory. For the record...I have not had to "fight" him in obedience...just agility. 

I do a lot of grab the collar with food, grab the collar and play tug so a collar grab doesn't automatically mean "Oh crap, I'm in trouble."


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> LOL, I grew up overseas and still don't get a lot of American idioms. But if nobody's gonna die, where does Jesus come in?
> 
> See, I've never even once had success with using harsh punishment to make something NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. It may have made the dog cower and cringe the next time they did it, or run away so I couldn't reach them, but doing it again? Oh yeah. So I must either have bad timing, or I'm not good at communicating what I'm mad about, or my dogs are defective .


It's the whole backbone of a snake aversion training and it is crazy effective. It has to make the dog fearful of the right thing, and it takes a professional to make the one happen, but two incidents of having the daylights fried out of them and yeah, you're going to have a dog who turns tail and RUNS from snakes instead of playing with them. It's really effective. Not something to do lightly, but it works, and has a long history of working. But yeah, it takes some specificness or you end up with a dog that's afraid of.. the location, the collar, the car in the background whatever.

Thud, in this case, is fairly wary of people on the stairs. And since that gives me the same result as him realizing not to herd on the stairs, and the fall out of that would be horrible, I'm not going to complain. But generally, you have to be awfully specific and that's WHY I specified that it'd have to be a life and death thing, where the fall out of doing nothing would be worse than doing it wrong. Though I'd never even bother with snake training on my own. I'm not good enough and there are too many variables for one person to control. That's a straight up professional job.. 

(Jesus comes in in the conversion sense. Sort of like... intervention on behalf of your immortal soul. Not 'you're going to go meet Jesus now'. "Come be saved and SEE THE LIGHT".)


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

LOL...a come to jesus meeting was explained to me way back when I got my first rottie in 2000 as this - The dog has a "life altering experience" that forces him to find religion. Jesus saves all wanton souls...and naughty dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

See, that does still sound pretty harsh. Not putting the dog in a down-stay like Laurelin said. . .


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> LOL, I grew up overseas and still don't get a lot of American idioms. But if nobody's gonna die, where does Jesus come in?
> 
> See, I've never even once had success with using harsh punishment to make something NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN. It may have made the dog cower and cringe the next time they did it, or run away so I couldn't reach them, but doing it again? Oh yeah. So I must either have bad timing, or I'm not good at communicating what I'm mad about, or my dogs are defective .


I have seen it work well a few times. The trainers I've been to are usually pretty darn positive trainers (agility). 2 different situations I've seen warranted some physical corrections from such trainers. They were effective once and done. Both cases were potentially dangerous situations dealing with larger working breed dogs. Trainer knew the dogs well and the corrections were applied in a way that the dog wouldn't know where the correction had come from. And by that I mean perfect timing. It was mostly a 'Whoa, wait what!?' for the dogs. The dogs have never done it again.

It definitely worked, but you will never ever see me advocate it online. Ever. I think you need a skilled trainer who can time it right and knows the dogs and knows the dogs will handle it and they won't over-correct. And you need the right dogs because that would be overkill for many dogs. It needs to be the right situation- like a potentially dangerous situation. It is too easy to mess up and have some serious fallout from. Too many people punish dogs out of anger and that is never something that is good.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> See, that does still sound pretty harsh. Not putting the dog in a down-stay like Laurelin said. . .


But this is the point of the article: TRAIN THE DOG YOU HAVE. I mean remove the positive reenforcement snide remarks. 

If I say "No" or look at Jack harshly, he has been SEVERELY punished. 

If I whack Thud upside the head with a 2X4, he bounces at me and play bows (...or would, I haven't actually hit him with a 2X4). The 'punishment' factor of me yelling, grabbing him by the collar, yanking him up four stairs by the collar and shoving him in the crate wasn't the manhandling, noise, or tone. It was that he then got the CRAP ignored out of him after all that. I can yell blue murder at or around that dog, and he doesn't care. If I really wanted to physically punish him/deter him, I... can't actually think of anything that would make any impact at all.

Kylie? Being forced to stay still? END OF THE WORLD, even a down-stay. She's active and she moves around a TON. There's no harsher punishment I could give her, than to make her down/stay and watch training happen with someone else.

(And yes, everything Laurelin said about harsh aversives. I also don't recommend them online, but they can and do work when done properly. I'm not claiming me dragging Thud around was effective. That was an emergent situation that has had a beneficial effect.)


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I don't want to end up at the hospital with my arm torn apart either...there go my dogs and the BSL people would have a field day the therapy dog attacked it's owner. All rottweilers are blood thirsty killers in the news. A down stay is a joke to a growling rottweiler who means it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> See, that does still sound pretty harsh. Not putting the dog in a down-stay like Laurelin said. . .


Mia is one of those dogs that pushes boundaries. She is an odd combination of soft and then hard when it comes to corrections. I am pretty sure I could yell at her till I was blue in the face and she'd listen for a second then as soon as I stopped, she'd go right back to it. 

Examples of what I mean... 1. You break your start line stay every time. Now if you break your stay, guess what? You go back in the crate. I see people waste trial money doing this with dogs that break their stays. It's a pretty harsh line for a dog that just wants to GO and run that course really bad. 

2. What I meant at the time was Mia picks fights a lot. She redirects on other dogs. Sometimes I have to physically remove her and pretty much force her to calm down. You sit. You stay. you break that stay and I will put you back until I release you. You do not get up until I let you. You be a butt with the other dogs and no fun for you now. That's all I mean....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I was just saying, if someone said they had a come-to-Jesus moment with their dog, I would assume it to be harsh and/or violent. That's all. I don't think a down-stay is life altering . So I can see why the people you was talking about assumed the same.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

> I don't want to end up at the hospital with my arm torn apart either...there go my dogs and the BSL people would have a field day the therapy dog attacked it's owner. All rottweilers are blood thirsty killers in the news. A down stay is a joke to a growling rottweiler who means it.


I'm not sure I see the wisdom in physically punishing a growling rottweiler who means it, either.



> I've only had to break that out once with Lars...when he was a year old, he did decide he was going to try to use teeth on my forearms to get me to let go of his collar when he marked our couch and I was taking him over to the scene of the crime. That's the only time Lars ever got lifted off the ground by his face. He came close at the agility trial where he thought growling at me was a great choice...too many witnesses there. LOL


I also don't understand what "taking him over to the scene of the crime" was meant to accomplish.

I dislike cutesy euphemisms like "come-to-Jesus moment." If people would be clearer about what they're doing with their dogs, we'd all have fewer misunderstandings here.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> Kylie? Being forced to stay still? END OF THE WORLD, even a down-stay. She's active and she moves around a TON. There's no harsher punishment I could give her, than to make her down/stay and watch training happen with someone else.


More proof that Kylie and Mia are the same dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> More proof that Kylie and Mia are the same dog.


Even with the odd combination of hard and soft, and Kylie starting to redirect onto other dogs and- Yeah, they really are and it's kind of (really) awesome.

They're the best dog ever, too.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> I'm not sure I see the wisdom in physically punishing a growling rottweiler who means it, either.
> 
> 
> 
> I also don't understand what "taking him over to the scene of the crime" was meant to accomplish.


I watched him tag the couch and I took him by the collar. The plan was to take him back to the scene of the crime...show him the urine and say "NO." He took it to a different level I had not intended it to go. He has a lot of defense drive...I wished I had the time to do Schutzhund with him because he would be fearless. 

I don't have the strength the physically correct a growling adult male rottweiler who means it and I'm not that stupid. I will take a collar and escort him to a crate and I won't let go the second the growl starts. When he was a year old, he was 65 pounds and I could physically correct him. Now at 5 and 87 pounds...I can't. So...I let him think that I can lift him off his feet like I did all those years ago if he decided to take it to the next level. 

See...this is why I'm vague about certain things.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> Even with the odd combination of hard and soft, and Kylie starting to redirect onto other dogs and- Yeah, they really are and it's kind of (really) awesome.
> 
> They're the best dog ever, too.


Gotta love them little big eared tricolor dogs!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I was just saying, if someone said they had a come-to-Jesus moment with their dog, I would assume it to be harsh and/or violent. That's all. I don't think a down-stay is life altering . So I can see why the people you was talking about assumed the same.


I guess this is kind of the point of the article and some of the discussion, here. 

People assume PR people wander around with cookies and bribe their dogs for everything and never say no or use corrections. 

Conversely, we all assume that someone mentions a correction, or a 'come to jesus moment' we assume they're beating their dog.

I'm not sure one is more fair than the other. Or that we should complain about one, while doing the other.



Laurelin said:


> Gotta love them little big eared tricolor dogs!


Yep. Though I'm glad they're on opposite ends of the country. They'd probably take over the universe with the combined power of awesome, if they were ever in the same STATE.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If people didn't use cutesy euphemisms like "correction" (I really hate that word) it would be easier, too. . .


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I dislike cutesy euphemisms like "come-to-Jesus moment." If people would be clearer about what they're doing with their dogs, we'd all have fewer misunderstandings here.


The thing is, to us it's not a cutesy euphemism, at least not to me. It's part of my daily speech and vernacular of language. It's like someone in the UK calling kibble biscuits. Language... just is what it is. That's not always clear, but it's not an attempt at obsfucation, either.



Willowy said:


> If people didn't use cutesy euphemisms like "correction" (I really hate that word) it would be easier, too. . .


What's the alternative to that one? "Did something the dog did not like in order to deter it from doing a behavior in the future?" I get that correction has negative connotation, and I agree that people being extremely clear about circumstance and actions would be useful, but when talking generally, is there anything else that works?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I don't really see the point in correcting a dog for marking on the couch if you don't apply the aversive at the exact moment the dog is marking on the couch. It seems like the dog would not understand what he was being scolded for? Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Yes things would be easier if we avoided 'correction' and just said 'and then I put her in a down-stay' or 'i kenneled him because he broke his stay' or 'and then i leash popped him'. Makes things clearer. 

Come to Jesus must be a southern thing or something... I hear people use it a lot and certainly don't think they are abusing their dogs/kids.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> There are no absolutes. "I would never," is a phrase that we like to believe is true, but the veteran trainers know otherwise. As soon as that statement is made, the next dog that walks through your doors will be the precise candidate for that "I would never", and no other alternative will do...
> Have a tool box full of hundreds of tricks, and as you train your 10,000 hours you will learn when to use what.


Wow, I wish I had her gift of gab and if she trains as well as she writes she is definitely a keeper.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I was told by someone who was well respected in the rottweiler community once that the dog knew how the urine with his scent got there even hours afterwards. I'm sure I verbally corrected or "scolded" (if that makes it more clear) him when I saw him do it....it was four years ago things get fuzzy in a 40 something mind. He squirted the couch and scurried away...I probably said "AHHHHHHHH!!! when he lifted his leg...took his collar and that's when things went defcon 1. 

Anyway...I got some dogs to train before the rains come.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think it's best just not to jump to negative assumptions about people across the internet. If someone says something like "correction" I'm going to assume the mildest form available unless they say something more to make me think otherwise.

We don't have "Come to Jesus Moments" in our house, we have parting of the red sea moments, I suppose.  We had one the other night and, like most of the ones I've had with dogs, it had to do with physical harm and an immediate reaction to it. Sam got excited and was already in a nippy mood and lunged at my face to nip, which I neatly dodged, only to get paws with claws that needed trimming...down my chin, with blood following. Now, I can easily see here where the not trimmed claws were completely my fault and I didn't think he was in any way being aggressive, but I immediately reacted, even without thinking, with a human howl, pushing the dog down and away, and calling for dh to crate the dog while we figured out what was bleeding and why.

Dh calmly picked up Sam and put him in his crate, but he was pretty shocked nonetheless and hasn't lunged at my face since. I have just a small scratch down my chin, but I think he learned a lesson.

Most of my experiences with harsh, physical aversives, beyond the choke chains my family had growing up, eons ago, and the alpha roll crap I did about 8 years ago or so when I was drinking the CM koolaid, were like this. It was usually a reaction to an emergency that freaked both human and dog out and made it pretty clear to the dog in the process that this is not a cool trick to try. They were not done in anger or malice and usually weren't even intended as "training" at the time, but usually to protect either dog or human.

Even when we used choke chains growing up and leash corrections, I don't remember it ever being ok to hit a dog or correct out of anger. When I think of corrections, I usually picture leash corrections and slip collars, not someone beating up their dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> It was usually a reaction to an emergency that freaked both human and dog out and made it pretty clear to the dog in the process that this is not a cool trick to try. They were not done in anger or malice and usually weren't even intended as "training" at the time, but usually to protect either dog or human.


But that's just never worked for me. I've freaked out on my dogs a few times (not proud of it. My self-control is not where it should be) and it just never made them not do that thing again. Made ME feel better, until the guilt kicked in, but never stopped them from doing whatever it was again. In my own mind it's "heh, he'll never dare to try THAT again!" but then he does. I fail at being effectively punitive .


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> Ocean is an excitement biter...when he does something great and I make a big deal about it, he's in the air flying at my arms trying to grab sleeves, tugs, and/or hands. I joke about it that "If I'm not bleeding...I'm not training." I do carry a bag full of neosporin and band-aids to agility class. Every week, I'm bleeding from some where. That is something completely different and I have not given a CTJ meeting for that for him ever. I would get whistled off the agility course if he started biting at me. So, that's an AH AH AH and I get very still when he starts to do it now at 18 months. That will get him to come down a lot. The other night...he got a stern "HEY!!!!!!" because he made a celebratory leap 5' off the ground at my face and I didn't see it coming because I couldn't matrix move my way out of the line of fire. I felt a canine tooth on my temple and a canine tooth on my jaw and didn't leave a mark. Made my breath hitch a bit though. That stern "HEY" got the point the across we don't fly at mommy's face no matter how happy we both are.
> 
> 
> That is completely different when a dog is being led or restrained by the collar and they start to alligator roll in the collar and start lunging at your hand and forearm to get you to let go. Oh no...that don't fly here. The verbal "Enough!" with the collar twist didn't work and he kept trying to get a piece of my arm. So I went to plan B with face grab and lift. He stopped trying to grab at me when his front feet came off the ground. I wasn't hanging him or choking him...but I wanted him to realize that I will touch you whenever and however I wish. Even if he did really nail me...I wouldn't have let go because he would have won and I would have lost a ton of respect.
> ...


I am sincerely awed by anyone with the courage to take on a serious dog like the Rottie -- far too much responsibility for me-- I sometimes feel I am in over my head with just my big Berner and he is a huge softie...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> I guess why I have always called myself "balanced" is because I use corrections...most of them are verbal.





Crantastic said:


> Also, if using verbal corrections makes you a non-positive trainer, I guess very few of us here are positive.



Meh.

I don't know "what" I am, other than someone who'll try to do the greeting ritual like a dog, sniff the ground to give a calming signal, try to turn anything he's interested in into a reward (see: Dora), make him solve his own problems (where reasonable), and uses shaping to make him think. 

But then again, I'm reminded of this:

"Believe in yourself, be the type of dog owner you want to be and you won’t need labels." - Dr. Abrantes


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't think ya'll get it. I use punishment with Shep very effectively.

When we go to PetsMart, he knows that the checkout folks have dog biscuits. So he barks when we go in, and we go up to a checkout clerk. The clerk gives him a treat and he stops barking. Behavior stops, must be punishment 

Or maybe Shep is doing the training


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Willowy said:


> But that's just never worked for me. I've freaked out on my dogs a few times (not proud of it. My self-control is not where it should be) and it just never made them not do that thing again. Made ME feel better, until the guilt kicked in, but never stopped them from doing whatever it was again. In my own mind it's "heh, he'll never dare to try THAT again!" but then he does. I fail at being effectively punitive .


My "freak out" moments haven't been angry ones where I've lost my cool, but more grabbing and pulling my dog away from danger or pulling him or her away from making a serious mistake. The action was swift and decisive and the dog could tell I was upset and afraid and I think that as much as the action made an impression. The dog knew that whatever it was that was going on before I grabbed it and pulled it away was SERIOUS...and I'm not all that serious all that often.

Those times didn't necessarily make me feel better any more than just relief after it was over and everyone was all right, but I think the way I handled the situation did have an impact on the dog's future behavior in a similar situation.

A good, non-dog example would be something that happened this weekend. My 7-year-old was going down a hill on her bike and I was riding behind her, with dh and my son up ahead. Mid-hill, she froze in fear of going too fast and forgot to use her breaks. I was terrified and riding to catch up, but powerless to do much to help except yell, "Use your breaks!!!!" Lucky for us, dh caught her safely at the bottom and everyone was ok. She is now, naturally a lot more cautious about hills and we worked with her after that, practicing using her breaks on very small hills and helping her feel more confident with slightly larger ones until using her breaks comes more naturally. I'd call that after part the training part, but the yelling and catching part definitely had an impact and she's much more cautious now.

With Sam, the me yelping, pushing him away, and my dh scooping him very quickly up and into his crate would be the yelling and catching part. The training we do every day to discourage nipping and train a softer mouth is the training part.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> My "freak out" moments haven't been angry ones where I've lost my cool, but more grabbing and pulling my dog away from danger or pulling him or her away from making a serious mistake. The action was swift and decisive and the dog could tell I was upset and afraid and I think that as much as the action made an impression. The dog knew that whatever it was that was going on before I grabbed it and pulled it away was SERIOUS...and I'm not all that serious all that often.


Yeah, this. I am not reacting and hurting the dog to vent anger or frustration, I'm being forced into action by the dog doing something that's a BIG DEAL. It's fast, decisive, and responsive, not... losing my cool, though I suppose it's lost in a sense. The kid analogy also works.

I'm a laid back, easy going, patient person. If I'm reacting loudly and physically, there is something WRONG. 

Dogs are not too stupid to get that.

And it certainly doesn't make me FEEL BETTER.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I don't want to end up at the hospital with my arm torn apart either...there go my dogs and the BSL people would have a field day the therapy dog attacked it's owner. All rottweilers are blood thirsty killers in the news. A down stay is a joke to a growling rottweiler who means it.


This, too. I see a dog biting as a serious safety issue...not just for the people around it, but for the dog. That dog is in serious danger of being PTS. Having bigger dogs or dogs with negative reputations only increases the risks of not having control over your dog.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, this. I am not reacting and hurting the dog to vent anger or frustration, I'm being forced into action by the dog doing something that's a BIG DEAL. It's fast, decisive, and responsive, not... losing my cool, though I suppose it's lost in a sense. The kid analogy also works.
> 
> I'm a laid back, easy going, patient person. If I'm reacting loudly and physically, there is something WRONG.
> 
> ...


This is exactly it...do I feel better after I've dished out the face/grab/lift?? NO! I feel badly I had to go there....but I also look at it as a window as "here's one my chance to make an impression...I've got to make this count." I don't freak out...I get scary calm and serious. Those of us who are old enough to have parents who acted as parents and not their kids' friends crap there is today (which is incredibly like how people deal with dogs) will remember this. When you were in like OMG trouble...you mom got scary calm and that scared you more than if she started screaming at you. That's what I do...the voice gets low, quiet, and hard enough it will cut glass. 

I am also a laid back, patient person and it takes a lot to get me mad. If I go scary calm...the dogs know something is wrong. If I go scary calm with Mr Boats...he knows something is wicked wrong. ROFL!! When he was younger and stupid in the coast guard when we were first married...he had a come to jesus meeting with me too. He was playing golf with his station-mates and they got hammered afterwards at the 19th hole. They thought it was a great idea to take some golf carts for a joy ride and bomb around the golf course in the dark while drunk. The golf course called the cops and I had to pick him up from the police station at 9:30pm. There was a CTJ meeting for him in the car on the ride home.  He's never taken a golf cart on a joy ride since... (and I'm trying to be funny with this story.)


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## amosmoses89 (Jun 19, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I don't know anyone who would tolerate their dog biting them to get them to release a grip on the collar.


Ha I know of one. The same dog that bit the (beans) *lol thanks willowy i like that one* out of my SO when we dogsat him for grabbing his collar to keep him from running off. Talked to the girl and she just said 'yeah thats just what he does'


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

amosmoses89 said:


> Ha I know of one. The same dog that bit the (beans) *lol thanks willowy i like that one* out of my SO when we dogsat him for grabbing his collar to keep him from running off. Talked to the girl and she just said 'yeah thats just what he does'


My mother-in-law's dog nailed me pretty good when I reached for her collar (I let her into the garage and didn't realize the door was open, so reached gently for her collar before she decided to bolt). MIL didn't seem that concerned by it.


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## amosmoses89 (Jun 19, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> My mother-in-law's dog nailed me pretty good when I reached for her collar (I let her into the garage and didn't realize the door was open, so reached gently for her collar before she decided to bolt). MIL didn't seem that concerned by it.


ambivalence just makes me mad. If your dog bites you and others you need to do some serious reevaluation of training methods and life in general. The dog bites every time she tries to get him to do something. Take a bath get bit, trim his nails get bit, take his collar, get bit. I'm not sure I could live with a dog like that in all honesty. 

The only time Sydney has shown anything like that was one of those panicked emergency situations. I let her out without a collar or leash and this man popped out of the fog and scared the crap out of us both she went to barking and moving toward him so I grabbed at her hind end. She turned and basically hit her jaw against my hand. I think it stunned her more than me because she just dropped and wouldn't come near me for a while when we got back inside. 

When the girls were younger SO and I both used harsher methods than I am proud of, and its a challenge getting SO to see the error in our ways. I think he's finally getting it though the more I include him in the training. He sees how happy doing tricks and clicker training it makes Chloe and how much faster Sydney is catching on to things using the clicker. Proof in the pudding and all that


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> The dog bites every time she tries to get him to do something. Take a bath get bit, trim his nails get bit, take his collar, get bit. I'm not sure I could live with a dog like that in all honesty.


Well I've heard serial killers have groupies and even get marriage proposals.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CptJack said:


> Conversely, we all assume that someone mentions a correction, or a 'come to jesus moment' we assume they're beating their dog.


Meh, I never heard the expression in my life. 

It's basically just leave me with the "so....what did you actually do?" question. 

I don't know, I guess I just like actionable terms. 

At least "correction" is actionable (you're correcting the dog's error). HOW you do that is a different discussion. For Wally, most of what MrsBoats as mentioned would be drastic overkill, but what do with Wally would probably have zero effect on her dog. But we both give corrections. 

Or you could just call it what it is, either punishment or redirection.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Here's a questions for a lot of you...since we have our training philosophies - how did you develop your training skills and how long have you been training dogs to feel like you have a philosophy? 

I started training dogs more than just pet obedience in 2003. I actually started out with my rescued rottweiler at Petsmart and took their pet classes in 2000 (I was 28 at the time.) When Sam decided that he didn't want the cookie reward I had and he didn't want to sit...they didn't have much of a solution for me other than get higher value treats (that didn't work either.) I also had some problems with him interacting with other dogs and people that they didn't have much to offer with help. So I went seeking people who could help me. That's when I landed at the training facility I now teach classes at today. http://www.k-9connection.net/ So, I have been there about 13 years and I still take classes there with the boys to this day. 

How I have formed the tool box I have is through many different methods. I'm a big fan of private lessons with trainers so you can get one on one pointers. I don't do much in the way of group classes outside of puppy classes and agility. Group classes for obedience don't work for Lars and I train like I trial and trial like I train. He will never be heeling with multiple dogs in the ring...so why go there. I will take drop in run thrus (both obedience and agility) with different instructors so I have a different set of eyes on me and different eyes see different things..and they have different solutions for issues they see. I'll try anything and if it doesn't work for my dog, I abandon it. When I'm done with my busy season at work, I'm training at a different facility about 3 - 4 times a week. 

I'm a seminar junkie and in the winter time...I try to hit them when I can. I've been to Mike Ellis (who is amazing), Denise Fenzi, Lo Baker, Julie Daniels, Amanda Shyne, and Paulette Swartzendruber seminars. Some I've audited and some I've had working spots. I like to audit because you get so much from watching different dogs with different personalities with their owners. Some of the stuff they talk about may not fit the current dog you own...but it might the next. There are agility seminars I've gone to that what they discuss doesn't fit Lars...but the info now fits Ocean. 

More agility than obedience...I find books useful to explain handling. DVD's are okay for me...but I don't get much from them because I can't take the video out on the field with me where I can take a book. 

Most of my toolbox has been built by numerous different trainers with different philosophies. I learn best from working with someone...especially someone who has a wide variety of tricks in their training repertoire. How have you built your tool boxes?? Trainers? Books? Videos?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I guess you could say I started training dogs about as soon as I was interacting with them, which is as early as I can remember. The first dog that was all mine to train and my responsibility to train, though, was at about age 7. My parents felt I was ready for the responsibility. With her, I just naturally didn't use much corrections and I assumed it was because she wasn't a GSD like I was used to. She'd do almost anything to please me, the challenge was communicating clearly what I wanted. Very sweet tempered dog and I still miss her. She helped me survive junior high and high school. 

I've done group classes, although I find them more useful for socializing dogs than for helping me learn how to train. I used to read more and watch more than I do now. That, unfortunately, led to me drinking the CM koolaid and doing things that went against my gut. I think I've become more confident over time and learned to trust my gut more. I also think that the more time you just spend with a dog and the more you get to know them, the easier they are to train. It takes time and familiarity to understand how they "click." I've never done one-on-one lessons, but if I had a problem that really seemed insurmountable, I would.

The books I read now are less about "Do x, then, y, then z" and more about animal psychology, dog behavior, and conditioning itself. I find this kind of knowledge more useful than a set of specific instructions that may or may not work with any particular dog. I ponder things quite a bit. A current example is that Sam seems to be catching on with bite inhibition far more easily with me than other family members. My hunch is that my "yipe" is higher pitched and sounds more like a puppy sound than everyone else's and I've been relying on that a lot in training him since it was working for me. However, the sounds he hears other family members make sound either like a human talking (background noise to him) or maybe an excited dog sound, which would only encourage more nippy since he thinks they're playing along. So, I'm doing more time-outs, which is probably his worst punishment. He's very velcro-y at this point, so even putting him away with a treat is like your KILLING him. LOL

I know that's a simplistic example, but I was hoping it would convey my thought processes when it comes to training. Since I'm not really training for competition, like I might in agility, I feel freer to be more intuitive even if the results take longer because I've had such a bad experience with not following my instincts.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> Here's a questions for a lot of you...since we have our training philosophies - how did you develop your training skills and how long have you been training dogs to feel like you have a philosophy?
> 
> I started training dogs more than just pet obedience in 2003. I actually started out with my rescued rottweiler at Petsmart and took their pet classes in 2000 (I was 28 at the time.) When Sam decided that he didn't want the cookie reward I had and he didn't want to sit...they didn't have much of a solution for me other than get higher value treats (that didn't work either.) I also had some problems with him interacting with other dogs and people that they didn't have much to offer with help. So I went seeking people who could help me. That's when I landed at the training facility I now teach classes at today. So, I have been there about 13 years and I still take classes there with the boys to this day.
> 
> ...


Well its been years but back in the day we started off with the traditional choke and crank methods for our poor Boxer boy (taught at our SPCA no less) and there was a Dog obedience group at the local Armory that met up Wed nights you could drop in with your pup and they would sort you into a class, I remember one elderly trainer (she had dauschunds) trying to choke my poor Boxer into a down stay by putting her foot on his lead and the pulling.....
We had trainers reccomend a prong (which did work) and then finally we were saved by the Gentle Leader...Which we used til he got old (he was fairly reactive to male dogs as well).. Group classes all the way. Have read some Jean Donaldson, and not sure what the theories are behind the excellent school we ran into- SF puppy prep but they are along those lines-- and do great urban dog- proofing as well...They remind me of the Kikopups videos, creative positive reinforcemnt.
This kind of training worked well with our 2nd boxer a mellow girl. But we hit a wall with our Giant Schnauzer which once we settled her in to the urban environment (she was raised outdoors on a farm and went into shock in a 3rd floor condo setting), she was such a diff dog from the boxers, and not at all biddable and much more powerful and Not treat motivated At All-- so we took her too the puppy classes and other than basic socialization and understandign commands did not all cause her to be obedient... She got more and more out of control (take the lead and drag me down 3 flights of stairs, we were using metal leads by then cause she liked to eat leather, and I mean Eat)....And a friend happened to mention a trainer in a nearby town who had taken her rambucntious 101 lb lab mix and trained him into a semblence of Manners... SO I decided to try it out-- Wonderful he took our dog for 3 weeks and then did another month of private sessions with us Amazing.... He really changed me -- This trainer breeds and shows Dobermans, is head of the local shutzhund club, and is wife is puppy trainer for the local assistance dog organization funded by Charles Schultz (Peanuts fame)....so it is a mixed bag of philosophies but he did teach me about Balance, and Yes we did use ecollar for a year, for recall. I learned about Balance, and Fairness, and having expectations for your dog, Dog learned that I was to be loved as well as respected and obeyed ( I really dont think she had that concept before although she did love me to death)...We went on to do some obedience refreshers (ring work) after that for a year or so, and I can do drop in sessions with the trainer for the life of the dog (but we moved several hours away so its not really feasible)....
And with my last dog a very biddable, sensitive young Berner, we did puppy class with the SF puppy prep people and went on with that (Kikopup- style) of positive training..... 
SO its a really mixed bag, depending on the dog.....


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Watson is my first potential competition dog. Before him, I loved training our family dogs growing up, but not much beyond sit, down, stay, shake, etc. I have ridden horses for 10+ years, which also informs my training philosophy. I rode jumpers actually, which I think can be very much like agility, except obviously you are controlling the animal by riding instead of from the ground at a distance. 

While waiting for my adult life to settle enough for a dog I started reading about dog training, focusing more on psychology, behaviorism, etc. Unlike previous training methods I had used or seen (choke chains, CM) behaviorism clicked with me. It's just seems like common sense, but I find people would rather believe some abstract theory of pack leadership or whatever other baloney. I grew up with parents who are behavioral psychologists, so I guess the behaviorism just makes so much sense to me. 

My first try with clicker training was on my rabbits, some years back, when I was about 25. Once I saw the level of communication I could have with an animal not bred to bond with humans, I was hooked. I actually learned a lot from my first rabbit and it took me weeks to get him to train with me longer than 30sec. I find that rabbits are very sensitive to pressure, being prey animals, and I like that challenge (I also tend to like soft dogs). They have taught me patience.

So that's basically it. Watson isn't quite a year old yet, so I have a lot more experience to gain on training competition behaviors, but I think my basic training philosophy is fairly well developed. My goal is to foster the best possible relationship with my dog and avoid the use of physical punishment if at all possible. I am always reading and learning new things and love creative solutions to problems.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I am very fascinated how people develop their training skills and become the trainers they are. 

You guys brought up early life stuff...I grew up on a farm in Upstate NY and we had farm dogs. They were a collie mix and two Shelties. I did train them in basic stuff...and it was all the yank and crank stuff that isn't used much today. But, I rode horses and showed them. That was my gig back from 5 years old until I went to college. I did English Huntseat and broke the last horse I had and did show him in children's hunters. I got out of it when I got to college...parent's divorced and I had no money to support the horse habit. I learned a lot from those horses and some of it I use today with the boys. 

Being intuitive with dogs is what people are scared to use. I had to cheerlead Sam through everything I asked him to. He had low to no drive. When I was first teaching Lars and figuring out the dog I had there - I knew a lot about how to motivate a dog...not how to contain energy. The instructor I had at the time knew a lot about how to make a dog heel when they didn't want to...but nothing on how to get a drivey dog under control. A lot compulsion was her answer...and I didn't want to go there because I knew it would squash the drive to work I had. So I had to start forging my own path with Lars because a lot of obedience trainers around here don't know what to do with a dog like him. I found one that I did the privates with and she was so helpful with getting me to clean up my handling and for me to take responsibility to become a better trainer. 

Again in agility, I ended up taking lessons with a big name trainer because I lost my spot in my friend Beth's class when I took the winter off from agility. She didn't get Lars at all....she's only run Border Collies and thought he should run like a border collie too. She was a do x, then y, and then z sort of trainer. She told you how you would handle a course and you couldn't deviate from that even though there were a couple of different ways to handle it. She blamed him dropping bars on my handling and she really got into my head that I sucked that bad. She kept dropping the height and he kept dropping the bars and kept blaming me for bad handling. He was jumping 12" jumps and would take them out all the time. It was never Lars' responsibility to keep the bars up. I'm all for helping a dog when they are learning something....but at some point, the dog must take responsibility for it's job. I remember asking her...when does he figure out that no matter what I do, the jumps have to stay up?? She had no answer for that. I lasted 3 months...and we got worse and worse and worse. So, that's how I look at if a trainer is working for me or not...if I spend time with them and we are worse than when I started - I stop using them. 

Those trainers who weren't a good fit for me or my dog have also have contributed to the toolbox I have.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

The dog I learned the most from was probably the dog I was worst with and the biggest thing she taught me was to follow my gut.

When I had Tinker, I was into the CM stuff. I'd started out with the choke chain "crank and yank" style of training with our GSD's as a child and even continued after I had my own dog because I had it in my head that "GSD's are tough dogs and you have to be tough with them." I trained my dog differently because she was a sheltie and I thought she was a soft fluffball, so I kind of fell into positive reinforcement with her unintentionally. Fast forward to my first dog of my own in adulthood, a rescue that was anxious, headstrong, and physically powerful and part Carolina Dog, which is a pariah breed. I think I went for the CM stuff because I still had it in my head that this was a "tough dog" so I needed to be tough with her.

I only made her anxiety worse the more I worked with her. The less I "trained" the better she did. As strong as she was, I felt like she was sensitive in a way my family's GSD's hadn't been. She was anxious and suffered from SA. My gut told me to go easier on her and be more gentle, but my head kept interfering, telling me she was just acting up because I wasn't being a good "pack leader." I even alpha rolled that poor dog and even as I did it, I felt like I didn't want to be doing that. When she had to be PTS for bone cancer, I remember feeling relieved in some ways. I knew her life had been hard even before meeting me and while we did have a lot of happy moments and I like to think her life was better with us, I know that I could have done a lot better to help her.

The next dog I got was a pug. I had never wanted a small dog before, but after Tinker I wanted a dog that didn't need to run as much and that wouldn't be as much of a physical challenge. I went back to what had worked with my Sheltie with him and he really did help me heal from losing Tinker and feeling like I'd failed her. He helped to bring back my confidence as a dog owner, too and I began to have a moment like our dogs do where things finally click and you've been waiting forever to see it...I realized that I was a much better trainer when I followed my gut more than the noise in my head, which is usually what I *think* other people think I should do. I think part of it has to do with my father teaching me how to train our GSD's and how strict he was with me. I learned to assume that whatever I thought was wrong and to follow, carefully, what I was told to do. It's almost like I can hear him in my head when I'm working with a dog that appears headstrong and when I had Tinker, I just added the CM stuff to the mix.

It is interesting how a lot of our stories involve childhood experiences with animals and I think mine involves a lot of becoming a more confident adult and listening to my own inner voice rather than feeling like I had to yield to whatever someone in a position of authority tells me. My coming into my own as a dog owner has been a part of my coming into my own as an adult.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MrsBoats said:


> Here's a questions for a lot of you...since we have our training philosophies - how did you develop your training skills and how long have you been training dogs to feel like you have a philosophy?


Not nearly as long as some people on here and still honing my skills.  I won't lie in that a lot of training doesn't interest me at all. Competition obedience? Bores me to tears. I also struggle at teaching some things (uh weaves anyone?)

First training experience was with Nikki, my sheltie I got when I was 10. I taught her tricks and we would put on trick training shows. I really didn't have a clue what I was doing at all, just doing what seemed to make sense to an 11-12 year old me. I used treats and luring really to teach her things like jumping through a hoop and playing dead. 

I also thought you were supposed to spank the dog and things like that so it wasn't perfect at all. It is odd looking back that I used 100% positive for trick training but also seemed to think other training shouldn't involve treats? It never occured to me that the two weren't all that different.

Didn't do much till Beau was 2 and we took a class at a local obedience school that used choke chains and also treats. Didn't go so hot. Did a little show handling with Beau but decided to give him to a professional (college and no time)

Once I got Summer I decided to trick train her and she was very good. I had read a lot more and participated in forums and she was a quick study. It was still mostly luring. Summer and I took about 6 months of UKC based agility class from a meh trainer. We started on leash and taught obstacles. Very little handling or drive building at all. She had enough drive to make it work, however. It was fun and convinced me I need to try performance sports. Somewhere in the interim here I taught Nard, Beau, and Rose how to do some minor agility and jump sequences and some tricks too.

Mia came along and I did the same old for the first year or so. Then discovered shaping. Oh boy, that was fun! It was a brand new world of possibilities and I taught both dogs a lot more tricks. Put Mia through a CGC class and got her CGC first try (big deal for a dog like her that hates strangers and other dogs). We did a tricks class, started Mia in agility and Summer continuing on. Another not so great trainer again. She had good ideas- like shaping that she explained well but was still missing a real competition foundation. We were there a year or so. Summer was running a full course and Mia big sequences but we were struggling and looking back I see we were missing all the foundations. My dogs knew the obstacles but had not been trained in between. 

Moved here. About a year later ended up in a national champion level agility foundations class with a superb trainer. Went through foundations. Dropped that after I got a job and couldn't fit it into my schedule.Still bummed I couldn't make that fit, but I still talk to her. It was a WHOA moment when I saw just a glimpse of what goes on behind real competition type agility training. so much more than just teaching a dog to do the obstacles! 

I discovered Sandy/PawsK9 on here had classes and enrolled Mia in a family dog class as a refresher. We took some treibball classes and did some rally-o, which I thought might hold my attention longer than obed. Uh... not really. I trained with Sandy until she passed away this year. So about a year?

Sandy pointed me to my club now. It's been a great change and experience- very eye opening. Especially about drive building. We've done agility there for over a year starting up from scratch and building the foundations we missed. We've done some distractions classes and also I've done nosework/scentwork with both girls since November last year. Been to a few flyball practices but timing is impossible around here with tournaments and practice eating up your weekend. We are doing full novice courses now with both girls.

Long way to go still but lots of change on my journey so far. I really have no interest in obedience or family dog type training. Obviously I do train all my dogs to be good pets and family members. But that's just kind of a given for me that you do with any dog. I find most of that comes around naturally from everyday interactions with my dogs and dragging them around everywhere I can think of. My dogs have always been go anywhere and not worry about them misbehaving kind of dogs. I'm highly interested in training 'soft sports'/sport foundations- agility, flyball if there's ever another club, disc, etc. Would like to try herding . I really want Nextdog to do disc. Really getting into the scentwork too. Would like to try dock diving with Nextdog too. Would love to teach or assist in classes as a side job one day once I get some experience under my belt (and titles!)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh and I am having new revelations all the time. My attention span is not so great so book reading how to type stuff... doesn't go very far with me. I own 2 training books. Haven't read a lick of either one. 

One revelation I had really recently is that I have approached the command 'sit' poorly for all of my dogs. Yes, something that basic I've only recently reconnsidered the way I teach it/drill it. Since changing my methods just practicing it, my dogs have gotten much more reliable and snappy. Huh, who figured? 

One thing I am confident in is that I will always be learning something new and doing things differently. Most weeks I get to watch a decent number of dogs training and that helps immensely to broaden your horizons and experience. I find my dogs ironically have weaknesses in most of the same spots whereas other trainers at my club may be dealing with a different issue. And I get to see them work through that issue from start to finish sometimes. It's one more thing to store away and gives me a lot better reference than if I was just seeing my dogs trained, I think.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

My training time has been really short and pretty restricted for the bulk of it, but I've done lots of reading, lots of observing and, the biggest breakthrough for me was always wondering WHY.
It all started with my "quest" to turn the demon puppy Caeda into a dog that I could deal with, and after that into a dog that would get closer to that potential that I know she has. After that I got interested in the fostering thing, which got me delving more into some of the issues I'd dealt with when Caeda was a puppy....socialization, guarding, politeness etc. With our fosters I got to practice that, and other things, a great deal. I learned SO many things hard and fast, trust issues, socialization issues, list goes on!
The development of my training philosophies though goes back to the big WHY question. 
Why don't I like or agree with a particular method
Why doesn't it work for me, 
Why doesn't it work for my dog (or the dog I am working with)
Why DO I like something, or agree/disagree with it
I watched different trainers videos, and asked myself all of these questions, Mike Ellis, Emily Yharlam, Caesar Milan, Bart Bellon, Iam Balabanov etc......and also asked myself if I am capable of those particular methods....does my personality fit it or is it going to be fake annoying BS if I act a particular way to facilitate that training (the dog can tell!). I also try to approach every method I hear of, no matter how silly or mean it might be with an objective mind to understand WHY I think it is silly or mean, or ineffective, or effective for that matter. 
and on and on and on.....
I looked into reading things like Temple Grandin, in search of more information on how dogs might perceive the world. 
I asked myself why, and I read, practiced with the dogs, thought a great deal until I could answer those questions for myself, and on top of answering those questions for myself I also swore to myself that I would keep as open a mind as possible to have my mind changed if there was an argument that made sense, though not believe a method was good because "So-and-so" uses it. 
I realized once I found a philosophy that works for me and for the dog the training goes SO much better....along with the realization that there are some kinds of dogs that I would probably suck at training, just because of my personality paired with theirs. I know I'm not cut out to be an overall "dog trainer" because of that fact, but at least I know what I can do with the dogs I have, and I know that there are some things that I really suck at training, even with Caeda (ie: loose leash walking....got it out of the fosters, but she won't do it unless she is in a formal heel, and even then she's better off leash...go figure lol)


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Oh I forgot to mention that as a teenager I did read tons and tons of dog training books-- the classics by Barbara Woodhouse, lotsa different breed books (they always have a training section)-- on Chows, Dals, Airedales, etc... all the Monks of New Skete, etc.... ANd later as an adult tons of more literary ones where training was not the focus but the backdrop it was more about the relationship bet you and the dog-- like this one BC guy in Britain who did like 3 I think on his collies, Merles Door, and of course Dog Whisperer, and the other show with the woman (not alot on TV about dog training)--- and even most interestingly one on Adolescents and Training your Puppy (weird huh-- I work with kids) and it did chapter by chapter a Subject as it related to the child, and then the dog.... SO I did check into alot of theories, and I think I came out with-- well your relationship with your dog is foremost (one of Mutuality and not DOmination).... But def have not formally worked Training as you guys have above!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm a first-time handler/trainer (Wally isn't mine so I don't call myself the "owner" even I spend a large amount of time with him. July will be 5 years working with him.

Most of the "cookie cutter" stuff didn't work on him because he came from a horrid past - basically a rescue dog even though my mom didn't get him from a shelter - he was taken from a neglectful/abusive "breeder". 

So first thing with him was building a relationship, otherwise, he'd want nothing to do with me, let alone want to train with me. Gaining his trust, showing him I'm not going to eat him or hurt him, etc. Stuff about dominance or even physically correcting him were out of the question. Plus, he's just a 15lb dog, so...how "physical" do I even want to get with him, especially when he's wary..at best..about me to begin with?

So I looked for other approaches, learned about counterconditioning to learn how to attack fear and calming signals to learn what's he's trying to "tell" me. That lead to learning about dog communication through body language and voice and a combination thereof. So I started learning to observe him, his signals, his reactions. Also went into "information overload" with books and websites with numerous ideas and concepts. That's why I don't know "what" I am, trainer-wise. It's a hodgepodge of different ideas, concepts, and what's most interesting to me.

Then I discovered shaping to help with his "I don't want to do anything in case it's wrong" mindset. It was pure hell for him but once he saw that moving without explicit permission was about to get him killed, he started getting into it. Seeing that I "broke into" his mind with it, I decided to run with shaping and he ran with me. From then on to now, almost all training sessions and tasks were taught through shaping. 

Once the fear dissolved and his personality came out, I had more to observe. His quirks, what interests him, what he finds pleasing/rewarding, the fact he's a foodaholic, his love of pancakes, etc. All of this went into learning what motivates him. 

After continuing to see that seemingly all the "typical" stuff didn't seem to work with him, I just focused on Wally himself. If he took a positive interest in something - it became a reward. Dora on TV. Barking a squirrel, eating lemon cake, whatever. The shaping became a part of both of our lives and he used it as much to communicate that he needs or wants something as much as a training method. He needs to go out, but I'm not looking - he flips over the rug by the door. He picks up something and drops it on my foot. He learned how to tell me things, not just me telling him things. I love that, feel like it increased our relationship because we have a sorta "personal language" between him interacting with things and me acting like I would during a shaping session.

From there, I'm always curious what is going on in his mind. What is he thinking? What choice will he make? So that's where a lot of the stuff I post in the training board comes from - trying to get into his head and trying to figure out more of HIM and not just how to get him to do things. The more I can figure out with how he thinks and reasons about his environment by observing his behavior and reactions, the more I have to try to "frame" problems that utilize how he thinks, hopefully leading to more success with more complex/abstract things. Combine that with more things he knows how to do, and he can make his own "language" to "talk" to me (sitting on one rug or another, poking me with his nose lightly, pawing my leg/foot and sitting while looking at something that concerns him, etc).

I guess a lot of the training I do with him is less about "training training" and more "how to interpret and use your environment" combined with my interest being less "training training" and more "how does Wally think, learn, reason, remember and communicate". He probably can't heel as good as he should, but he can open a door and fold towels, pick up and carry things for me, and let me know when something is happening in the house (timer going off, oven preheated, doorbell rang, etc), beginning to associate names of objects, trying to teach him how to parse the sounds I make (words, for now, but eventually other tones like whistle and musical notes) into behavior chains, and our relationship is very strong.


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