# White GSD's



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

How do you get a white shepherd? I understand that there are breeders of strictly white GSD's, but I just read on the GSD standard that a white coat is disqualifying. So, I'm confused. I know in boxers, breeding whites is not responsible because you are passing on the gene for deafness, is there something similar with the white GSD?


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

I have no idea. I just like the look of them. I think the Panda shepherds are very pretty, as well.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Some will tell you that White German shepherds are prone to deafness, but I believe that is just a myth. They are also completely different from albinos. They are unacceptable in the AKC show ring, but acceptable in the UKC. The reason for their disqualification is because German shepherds are a herding breed, and a white German shepherd would blend in too well with the sheep, and stand out too much in its environment, where it could be an easy target for wild animals. They can still be registered with the AKC under the color "white". One of the earliest German shepherds was white, and a prominent dog to the development of the breed and sired many working German shepherds. I don't know much about breeding, but from what I understand it's a recessive gene. A white bred with a sable could have white, sable, and black and tans depending on the genes of each dog. But a white bred with a white will provide an all white litter.

Very beautiful dogs, but I can't say I personally agree with breeding for the white color. Panda shepherds, though, look plain ridiculous in my opinion.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Equinox said:


> Very beautiful dogs, but I can't say I personally agree with breeding for the white color. Panda shepherds, though, look plain ridiculous in my opinion.


Thanks for the info. The herding part makes perfect sense. And I've never seen a panda shepherd - thankfully.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

Okee...I didn't say I agreed with breeding them, or that it was OK to breed only for color. 

I think the pandas are pretty, but should be culled and not bred. (by cull I mean spay or neuter, not kill). I read that there's a lady here in Ohio that breeds for the pandas deliberately. She also has some black and white shepherds, which is also a color violation. 

I'd say she's just a BYB.

The photo below came from her page. See? The dog isn't ugly. Maybe not to standard, but not hideous. Again, the dog should be spayed or neutered. Who knows what health issues can come from a recessive coloring like that. 











And this one kind of looks like a tri color collie


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oooh, that's a pretty dog. If I saw him, I'd think he was a mutt, though. Maybe Collie/GSD or something like that. I don't think a purebred GSD should look like that.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Haha, I never did say those dogs were ugly, now did I? I don't think I've ever called a dog ugly before, just silly or ridiculous. Panda colored German shepherds are ridiculous looking. Of course, just my opinion.

Do you mind sharing the breeder's link with us? I'm interested in looking at some more pictures.

And wow, look at those eyes! Is that an attribute of all panda patterned GSDs?

*BoxMeIn -* I've never seen one either, and am glad for it. I don't know what I'd do if Panda patterned German shepherds became a new "fad"!! 

You should definitely ask someone more knowledgeable if you want to know more about white German shepherd breeding. My knowledge is very, very limited


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

I have no idea about the rest of it, but I know one GSD that is handsome, healthy and happy.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

If you have a computer, then you have google. Just google panda shepherds, and you can find it. 

I don't know, I guess that RonE was right in his thread about respect and stuff. The internet is certainly not for the thin skinned. 

I just think it's rude to say that a dog is ridiculous looking. But hey, its the internet and people tend to say things online that they wouldn't say in person.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Buck always has me drooling. What a beautiful dog!

*Sammgirl -* I'm sorry if you have taken my comment about Panda shepherds in general as a personal attack. I don't mean to offend. I just simply say what I think. I did not feel like I was being disrespectful to you... that dog isn't yours, is it? If you think what I said about a fur pattern is offensive, than my apologies to you.

I mean, I just said I don't approve of white GSD breeding, and Renoman doesn't hate me for that (do you? ). Even if Buck is a complete hunk. <.< >.>


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Equinox said:


> Buck always has me drooling. What a beautiful dog!


Thank you. 

Sorry for the hijack...


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I know someone that breeds GSDs and breeds white. I plan on getting a white GSD from him, maybe a long haired. 
I don't consider him a BYB. He health test, takes all the dogs back(had someone drive from NJ to NC to give him a puppy back), and he's breeding for the old style GSDs...not the sloped back show dogs. So he doesn't breed to standard. He breeds for health, temperment, and the straight back bigger GSDs of the past. 
I prefer them over the show dogs so if I get a GSD that's who I'm getting it from.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I actually have a friend who is breeding her white German shepherd. Her girl is 2+ years old, has been shown, and DNA, eye, heart, liver, elbow, and hip tested. Her dogs are registered under the UKC, where white is acceptable. I call that responsible breeding, just not breeding I wish would take place. 

luvable, if you're going to get a German shepherd puppy, I cannot wait to hear more about it! Congrats  However, when you say "old-styled" German shepherds, do you mean old-styled = bigger? Because the true olden day German shepherd is on the small side.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

> An old-style German shepherd is about 30-33 inches in height and weighs around 110- 140lbs. The features on the face are the same with regular German Shepherds, but the old-style dogs have larger heads, straight backs, big bones and no extreme angulations on the legs, giving it a noble and more poised look.


I took the site off because I don't feel like having people bitch about someone I personally know and they don't. -
I'm not planning on getting another dog for a while but when I do, if I get a GSD, it'll be from there.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I know someone that breeds GSDs and breeds white. I plan on getting a white GSD from him, maybe a long haired.
> I don't consider him a BYB. He health test, takes all the dogs back(had someone drive from NJ to NC to give him a puppy back), and he's breeding for the old style GSDs...not the sloped back show dogs. So he doesn't breed to standard. He breeds for health, temperment, and the straight back bigger GSDs of the past.
> I prefer them over the show dogs so if I get a GSD that's who I'm getting it from.


You mean the same guy from a year or two ago that chooses to ignore the standard for no other reason than he wants to? Not breeding for standard makes him a BYB 

The Paradise Creek site is a lie. The original GSDs were NEVER that large x.x

Not to mention the dogs he posted are labeled wrong in terms of style >.<

AND no OFA's! Shocking!

Right, real reputable...ugh >.<

As for the whites, it is a simple recessive gene...a masking gene actually. While the dog appears white, it could be a black and tan, sable, or solid black genetically xD

There are some responsible people breeding for the standardization of White Shepherds...some want them to become a separated breed here in the states, others want AKC to include them as a variety.

Not going to lie...I've seen some White GSDs that have GORGEOUS structure.

White is nearly extinct in the German lines...if not completely extinct already.

There is also much speculation as to why white is not allowed...it really hasn't been a disqualification all that long. The only thing Captain Max said was that white was just dull and unappealing to him...that was it xD


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I thought the showlines on the breed lines page were all German rather than German and American show lines. 

Hm... I have a question of my own. What do you think of breeders who show in the UKC ring and register under UKC and breed white German shepherds? I mean, white IS acceptable in the UKC, and I think it would still be responsible breeding if they are doing everything right. Wouldn't it be?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I think that the people that show in UKC, are following the standard, and are health testing their dogs are going in the right direction to establish a TRUE breed, and I can't and won't fault them for that.

They are not selling these dogs as rare novelties, they're taking care of their litters and staying within their standard.



> I thought the showlines on the breed lines page were all German rather than German and American show lines.


They were.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I grew up with white GSDs ...they were all SAR dogs and all from a breeder in Canada

if I were to ever one day get a GSD it would be from her line and she would be white ...they are just close to my heart


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Xeph if you missed it, he health test all his dogs. Sorry but I know more about him then you do considering I know him personally. He HEALTH TEST his dogs. So he only breeds healthy dogs...not just breeds random ones. 
First sign of him actually caring about breeding. 
Second of all, he takes all the puppies back. 
Third of all, he doesn't breed to standard because the sloped back GSDs are just disgusting IMO. They're trying to change the standard anyways. 
Also, another big deal. He doesn't make money. He actually lost about 4,000 bucks with his last breeding.
So again he's not a BYB.
He's trying to breed to better the breed instead of breeding cute little show dogs
Also breeding for police dogs...so they'll be working. 
Something most GSDs no nothing about now adays.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Does he sell pet-quality pups on spay/neuter contracts? That would be another thing I'd look for. Do you know which health tests he does? Probably hip OFA, but do you know what else?

In most breeds I wouldn't seek out a show breeder either. But it is important that someone be a responsible breeder, working to better the breed.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Well contrary to what Xeph said he does do OFAs and he actually spayed one of his bitches because her test came back less then normal and he was responsible enough not to breed her ofcourse. 

All of them are pet-quality and have a s/n contract and limited AKC registration. He knows his dogs can't be shown but he loves GSDs and doesn't like to see them with sloped backs. He wants to breed a working dog not a show dog. He's just getting started, working towards breeding police dogs and he's going to meet that goal I'm sure. He really does love GSDs and he's doing what he thinks is best for the breed. 
Some people just don't like GSDs with sloped backs, I know I don't. I want a dog...not a ribbon winner.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Err... so a dog with a sloped back is not a dog?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I read that he health tests...I also read that he OFA's...not a single dog of his is in the OFA database, nor does he even bother to post results on his website. No pedigrees either.

Losing money doesn't mean he did it right either...lots of people lose money when they breed and do it wrong, just like people lose money when they breed and do it right.

No reputable police academy would touch his dogs with a 10 foot pole  They're not titled, there's no proof of OFA, there aren't any dogs behind them that are doing the work (if there are they are few and far between)...right, police dogs...



> Third of all, he doesn't breed to standard because the sloped back GSDs are just disgusting IMO.


There's more to the standard than angulation. And if he doesn't like the AKC standard, he COULD breed to SV regulations. Their standard calls for 120 degrees of angle in the rear, as opposed to the AKC standard of 90. Of course, if he bred to SV regulations he'd actually have to title his dogs.

And you just said yourself they're pet quality only...another reason the police wouldn't go to him for their dogs.



> They're trying to change the standard anyways.


....since when?

I know Doodle breeders that take their dogs back...doesn't make them reputable either


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

It's a dog but some people don't care about what the standards do to the dogs, they just follow the standards. Like bulldogs can't even give birth without help at this point. Some GSDs with sloped backs aren't that bad but some breeders just go along with the standard even if it might put the dogs health at risk. 
Some people think that the straight back GSD is closer to what a real GSD should be and that sloped GSDs are just nice looking show dogs...but that's all they are. 
Personally, I prefer GSDs with straight backs and I prefer breeders that breed dogs that work more then show. 
Not saying show dogs can't work...but I like to see that the dogs can actually do what they were bred to do. 
In this case, when his dogs finely start selling as police dogs that's going to be a big plus for him as a breeder. His dogs are healthy and happy straight back GSDs. Just because they don't have sloped backs so they can't be shown doesn't mean they're comming from a BYB. 
He just has a different idea of what the breed is supposed to look like.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Personally, I prefer GSDs with straight backs and I prefer breeders that breed dogs that work more then show.


But you're going to buy from a guy that doesn't even work his dogs? Riiiiight, that's logical.



> He just has a different idea of what the breed is supposed to look like.


Then he should start his own breed and not ruin mine. Got plenty of people doing that already >.<


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Fine Xeph you have your opinion I have mine. 
This is about white GSDs. Most "reputable" breeders won't breed for white. 
This is as close as your going to get to a good breeder breeding for white. 
Just leave this breeder alone. Cause like I said I know him and if I find out he's being harrased by you then I'm going to be pissed. So lose his website and move on.

Xeph he's making them better. People like you ruined the breed. What point is there in having a dogs who's ass touches the ground? 
You don't know him so stop talking. Just move on...I'm done. When his pups start working for the police I'll send you pics. Till then this discussion is over. And like I said...lose his website.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You post a breeder, they're going to be scrutinized



> This is as close as your going to get to a good breeder breeding for white.


Bologna. www.vontasz.com <--Breeders of whites for 28 years...they show their dogs, title their dogs in venues other than conformation, health test...THAT'S a real breeder.

Nice threat by the way...taken seriously 

I haven't contacted him at all, but I certainly won't lie and pretend he's some great breeder when people ask.



> Xeph he's making them better. People like you ruined the breed. What point is there in having a dogs who's ass touches the ground?


ROFL! I had no idea that working and titling my dogs in various venues instead of breeding them willy nilly was ruining the breed. Thanks for the heads up!



> And like I said...lose his website.


The only way to lose a website is to have it deleted from the net.

You're just upset because somebody disagrees that this is the best breeder ever, even though he does nothing with the dogs aside from put them together to make puppies for the unsuspecting and uneducated.

If he wanted what was best for the breed, he wouldn't put false information on his website, and at the very least, he'd at least label different styles of dog correctly.

Hey, check it out guys! A working white!
http://www.taosrescue.org//K-9Zatoichi.html

I seriously love the von Tasz dogs x.x

By the way, I think I only saw one or two untitled dogs, and it was because they were young. And the longevity is fanTASTIC.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Xeph..www.vontasz.com those dogs are awesome!!!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would totally defect for 13 years to have one of her whites xD!

I wish I had that longevity in the colored dogs...maybe I can get it back in my line at least


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## Tuatha (Jan 25, 2009)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> How do you get a white shepherd? I understand that there are breeders of strictly white GSD's, but I just read on the GSD standard that a white coat is disqualifying. So, I'm confused. I know in boxers, breeding whites is not responsible because you are passing on the gene for deafness, is there something similar with the white GSD?





Maybe I can get it back on topic and answer your questions 

The white german shepherd is white because of a recessive white gene. If you have, two whites, then you will get white GSDs. If you have two b/t's and they both have the gene then you will get some pups that are white. If you breed a white to a b/t that doesnt have the white gene, then you wont get any whites. If the b/t does have it, then you will get some whites.

Now, as to ethics, that is a long debatable thing. The White GSD is a GSD, but from what I gather, some are or have got it seperate and is a White Shepherd Dog. Not a GSD.

There are people who breed white shepherds who show and health test and all of that, but they dont call them White German Shepherds, They are just White Shepherds.

Further debate could be brought up regarding alot of things, including that white dogs were used in the founding stock of the breed, so why are they not wanted now.

The GSD was bread not for sheep herding but for dual purposes, one of which did include herding, but was not specific to. From some debates people believe that the white stood out to much. In the dark in a police or military setting, you dont want to stand out, and in herding, the shepherd usually needs to see his dog. 

But even that can be further debated as there are other herding breeds that are white and do just fine.

Just because they are white doesnt mean they are albino and I dont believe they come up as much as in other breeds like boxers or dobermans. So there is a very big difference regarding that.

But, anyways, the foot note is that a white gsd is a white gsd because of a gene the parents carry. Everything else you will find oposite ends and mixed feelings from different people on.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I think it's hilarious when somebody breeds a white to a B&T and goes "How did I get sable?!!??!?!?!" if they even know what sable is


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Fine Xeph you have your opinion I have mine.
> This is about white GSDs. Most "reputable" breeders won't breed for white.
> This is as close as your going to get to a good breeder breeding for white.
> Just leave this breeder alone. Cause like I said I know him and if I find out he's being harrased by you then I'm going to be pissed. So lose his website and move on.
> ...


XOX, if you "friend" the "breeder" is so awesome, then why doesn't he have any of their acheivements on their website? If they health test, then where are the results? If I was searching for white GSD's I would totally think this was just another backyard breeder - no evidence that he works his dogs, no evidence of health tests and no titles.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

Ok, white GSD's...
Lacey's father is white, her mother is black...she's a black and tan LOL!
It's a recessive masking gene, meaning Lacey's father is "probably" a black and tan (now that I've seen some others out of him) but is covered with the white. 

Do a punnet square. I imagine to show up the dog has to be ww (2 white recessives to be white) so if you breed ww x ww = an entire white litter. ww to Bw (where B is dominate for whatever other color) would equal a mixed white and whatever litter, essentially making 50% of the litter white, and 50% of the litter any other color that the dominate gene represents. However, with that in mind you could have a completely solid litter or a completely white litter out of that kind of mating...it all depends on how it falls, the punnet square show's the probability.

ETA: White GSD's are not albino. Buck is a great example thereof. Notice, primarily black nose (though partially pink? Not sure by the photo), dark eyes. 
An albino would have reddish eyes, pink nose and skin.

Also, I don't get the "panda" shepherds. Especially the blue eyes. I'm not saying this happened, but they look like they have Catahoula to add that odd coloring.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

ACampbell said:


> Also, I don't get the "panda" shepherds. Especially the blue eyes. I'm not saying this happened, but they look like they have Catahoula to add that odd coloring.


To me the panda shepherds look border collie .

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/userfiles/panda shepherd_std.jpg


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I just wanted to address the question of how White GSDs come about from a genetics point of view. 

The gene that controls the white coloring of the White Shepherd is a dilution gene on the "C" locus. It is called c'e' for extreme dilution and is recessive, requiring a matched pair (one from each parent) to create white. A White Shepherd is actually genotypically cream.

It is the same gene that dilutes the Poodle and Bichon etc. breeds red/buff/cream coloring to white. These red/tan/yellow/creme/buff colors are as well recessive and controlled by the Extension locus (where you can have E/E and E/e which allow the Agouti affected colors to show (Sable, Wolf Pattern, Saddleback, Black/Tan,) or a double dose of e/e which only allows the reds/tans. Interestingly a dog that is e/e can be as vibrant red as an Irish Setter, or as white as a Poodle if dilution genes are working on that color (a yet undiscovered intensifier gene might also be involved.)

So for a White Shepherd you need paired recessives on at least three of the gene locuses that control coat color. That is k/k on the Black/brindle locus, e/e on the Extension locus and two copies of the extreme dilute allele on the "C" dilute locus. Coat color is a polygenic trait affected by at least 10 loci.

The white color of Boxers or Papillons and Collies etc. is not caused by the same recessive dilution gene. The gene which allows white (in patches) on these breeds is referred to usually as the Piebald gene. It is a recessive allele as well (recessive to a solid allele) so two piebald alleles are required for the piebald coloring. Unknown modifiers also affect the ratio of white/color in each dog.

A double dose of the piebald gene is linked to increased incidenses of deafness, especially if the white extends over the ears. A double dose of the dilution gene which affects Poodles etc. is not linked to deafness. (So there is one safer way of getting a full white dog.)

This site has some great information and a list of the loci involved and description of their affect if anyone is interested in coat color genetics. http://www.hnrworkingkelpies.com/ACDGenetics.html


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Thank you, Tuatha, ACampbell and spanielorbust for the explanation. Thanks for that link, too spanielorbust!


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

I don't think breeding white shepherds makes someone a BYB... white shepherds were in GSD lines since the beginning, and were only 'banned' in the 1960s, mostly because people seemed to blame the color for various health problems. Before then, they were actually pretty popular.

White shepherds are their own breed now, and if someone wants to breed them specifically, and they do it responsibly, what's the problem with that? Just because a color is not 'AKC show appropriate' doesn't mean anything... heck, take Parti-Poodles for instance. Particolor was actually the ORIGINAL common color for poodles, and then show fashion changed and the club disqualified it. To me, if a breeder felt that was a stupid DQ, and wanted to breed Partis anyway, that isn't a crime. Herd mentality is not always justified, and ring fashions are not gospel. 

I think people forget that breeds existed before dog shows and breed clubs, and that shows are supposed to exist for the DOG, not the other way around.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Pai said:


> I don't think breeding white shepherds makes someone a BYB... white shepherds were in GSD lines since the beginning, and were only 'banned' in the 1960s, mostly because people seemed to blame the color for various health problems. Before then, they were actually pretty popular.
> 
> White shepherds are their own breed now, and if someone wants to breed them specifically, and they do it responsibly, what's the problem with that? Just because a color is not 'AKC show appropriate' doesn't mean anything... heck, take Parti-Poodles for instance. Particolor was actually the ORIGINAL common color for poodles, and then show fashion changed and the club disqualified it. To me, if a breeder felt that was a stupid DQ, and wanted to breed Partis anyway, that isn't a crime. Herd mentality is not always justified, and ring fashions are not gospel.


Ummm...who said breeding white GSD's makes you a byb?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Ummm...who said breeding white GSD's makes you a byb?


I was addressing the OP:



> How do you get a white shepherd? I understand that there are breeders of strictly white GSD's, but I just read on the GSD standard that a white coat is disqualifying. So, I'm confused. *I know in boxers, breeding whites is not responsible because you are passing on the gene for deafness, is there something similar with the white GSD?*


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

So you were addressing me? lol 

I never thought that breeding white gsd's made you a byb, though. I was just asking what made the gsd white and if it was the same gene that causes deafness in boxers.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

I know that it isn't a white shepherd, but I love the look of liver shepherds. Even though it's a serious fault in the show ring, and I don't believe a reputable breeder should go out of their way to produce them, I find them to be beautiful dogs.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

That is a GORGEOUS dog!


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> That is a GORGEOUS dog!


I know I'd take him in a heartbeat.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> XOX, if you "friend" the "breeder" is so awesome, then why doesn't he have any of their acheivements on their website? If they health test, then where are the results? If I was searching for white GSD's I would totally think this was just another backyard breeder - no evidence that he works his dogs, no evidence of health tests and no titles.



From his website maybe but other then that I personally know what he does with his dogs. He takes their health VERY seriously and health tested them all. 
I'll be sure to tell him to put that info on his website. 
He checks their hips and elbows. Spayed a bitch because her test came back less then normal. One of the puppies died and he got a test to see if it died from anything genetically...nope ate a poisen mushroom. Rushed the puppy to the vet and had it die on his lap as he was crying. It was really sad. 
His dogs won't have show titles because you can't show GSDs with straight backs. They like their butts to be close to the ground...not at a normal level with the rest of their body. 
He's just starting out...so his dogs will be working but not everything is going to happen like *snap*. 
So maybe he's not top of the line. 
But at least he health test his dogs and makes sure all his puppies have homes or are returned to him if they're unwanted for whatever reason. 
He's not trying to make money...he lost money. 
He's breeding for the love of the breed...not for a quick buck. 
If people have a problem with that..then too bad. He's better then most breeders out there.
Maybe not top of the line, yet, but he'll get there. 
And when he has the best GSDs out there...I'll laugh in Xephs face. Because people like that are just pathetic. 

Give me proof that a sloped back on a GSD was how they originally were in the beggining of the breed. Give me proof there's a GOOD reason for it. 
Give me proof it doesn't cause ANY health problems. 
I would rather have a GSD that can walk normal then one who is always at a slant.


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## PitBully (Mar 12, 2009)

*Xeph*:

I have only seen the GSD with the curved back on television and online. These dogs are obviously not "working GSD" but what do you think about their looks? Are they as healthy as their working counterparts?

PB


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> His dogs won't have show titles because you can't show GSDs with straight backs. They like their butts to be close to the ground...not at a normal level with the rest of their body.


That's bull pucky XO  You can show them, but the certainly won't win in an American ring. The "straight back" dogs you keep referring to are generally in the working lines, and are most definitely shown at least once in the German ring. They have to be in order to get their koerklasse rating.

And the dogs could still be proving themselves in other rings. Herding, schutzhund, rally, obedience, agility, flyball...there's more than conformation, and he exhibits in NONE of them.



> And when he has the best GSDs out there...I'll laugh in Xephs face. Because people like that are just pathetic.


In order to laugh in my face you #1 have to know where I live and #2 still have to hope I'm alive by the time he achieves this "Great goal" that others have already gotten to and been at for years.



> He's breeding for the love of the breed...not for a quick buck.


Even if he's not breeding for a quick buck, this has nothing to do with love of the breed. He's breeding obvious faults, none of his dogs are in the OFA database, his dogs aren't titled, and he didn't start with stock from a reputable breeder.



> But at least he health test his dogs and makes sure all his puppies have homes or are returned to him if they're unwanted for whatever reason.


Where's the proof? Certainly not in the OFA database, not even prelims.


> I have only seen the GSD with the curved back on television and online.


Those are the West German high lines (show lines).



> These dogs are obviously not "working GSD" but what do you think about their looks? Are they as healthy as their working counterparts?


If you're talking general health, they're as healthy as any other line of GSD (which is not very to be honest). There are show lines in K9 work, but not as many as the Czech/DDR/East German dogs.

Like any line, there are good dogs and bad dogs. I thought the crufts winners this year were TERRIBLE, and I don't care for Zamp Thermodos either. Andrujscha v Noort is a nice boy, haven't seen his bite work though. Gipsi Sawtooth is a REALLY nice show line bitch that shows you that they CAN and DO have it...they just need to be worked with and not rushed through for the almight VA rating.


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## PitBully (Mar 12, 2009)

Could you direct to me a *good* website displaying West German lines?

PB


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Xeph said:


> they just need to be worked with and not rushed through for the almight VA rating.


What's the VA rating?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Could you direct to me a good website displaying West German lines?


The word good is completely subjective, that's the issue. Some of the top rated West German line kennels have dogs I wouldn't touch because I HATED their look. The roach is something that is nearly impossible to avoid



> What's the VA rating?


It's the highest show rating a GSD can achieve. They must be koered, have a working title, and have had their AD (endurance test) done in order to achieve this rating. You can only go VA at a sieger show.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

upendi'smommy said:


> I know that it isn't a white shepherd, but I love the look of liver shepherds. Even though it's a serious fault in the show ring, and I don't believe a reputable breeder should go out of their way to produce them, I find them to be beautiful dogs.


That is a gorgeous dog. The gene that causes liver, or in some breeds it is called chocolate, is on the "B" allele. Just two little matching recessive alleles at one locus change the black on the dog to brown, the fur and the leather.

I think this guy might even be lilac, which means another dilute locus at work ("D locus") in addition to the B locus.

There are chocolate Cavaliers as well. This site has a page that shows some. I really like the Chocolate and Tan (seventh photo down)!

http://cochrancav.com/chocolate

I've never been able to figure out color restrictions in standards. They make no sense at all to me - but then neither does purity (prefer the landrace breeding style to registry breeding).


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

The liver shepherd is lovely. Should I ever get a GSD, I'll have to shop around extra hard for a liver one.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> That is a gorgeous dog. The gene that causes liver, or in some breeds it is called chocolate, is on the "B" allele. Just two little matching recessive alleles at one locus change the black on the dog to brown, the fur and the leather.
> 
> I think this guy might even be lilac, which means another dilute locus at work ("D locus") in addition to the B locus.
> 
> ...


That's interesting, the genetics of it all. Thank you for the info. I don't quite understand color exclusions either. I just know I like liver shepherds and really my girl has made me a gsd lover (even though she's a mix, she has the personality of a gsd). And I think the next puppy I get I would love to be a liver gsd.



txcollies said:


> The liver shepherd is lovely. Should I ever get a GSD, I'll have to shop around extra hard for a liver one.


The next pup I get I'm going to try and find a liver gsd. I prefer them to the other colors.

Xeph - Do you know why liver and blue shepherds are a fault?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The nose leather of the breed has to be black...their nose leather isn't (and can't be) black.

You're highly unlikely to find a liver or blue pup from any reputable breeder, especially in the German lines. You'll also be extremely hardp ressed to find a good breeder that will sell you one JUST because of its color. There was a guy that recently had a litter with two livers (one liver SABLE! and one liver and tan) that were completely unexpected. In the interest of honesty he disclosed the parents and the pedigrees, but doesn't know where it's coming from, only that both his dogs (surprise!) carry liver.

I know a woman that breeds and shows Shepherds, and last year she invited me to stay at her house after a show so I didn't have to sleep in my car, and I saw her litter of puppies....6 blues out of 8 I believe it was. Give or take a blue xD

She was COMPLETELY blown away! She had NO idea her bitch or the stud dog carried for blue (stud had never been bred before). But it was an interesting experience, seeing Blue and tans (and blue sables!).

There are no major health issues with livers and blues, however, like the blue and fawn dobermans, they tend towards alopecia, and seem more susceptible to skin allergies.

By the way...there can't be lilac in GSDs...doesn't exist.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't want a liver gsd just because of the way the look. I think that's what you were getting at, I'm not sure because it's hard to tell over the internet. I've had gsd's in the past and have a gsdxhusky now with a gsd personality. My next pup is going to be a gsd, I'd like a liver because I prefer the color to black and tans, red and tans, etc. That being said, is it possible to find a reputable breeder to sell a liver pup with a spay/neuter contract?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> That being said, is it possible to find a reputable breeder to sell a liver pup with a spay/neuter contract?


Yes, but what I was saying is that they likely won't sell you the puppy because it's the color you want. If the puppy is liver but it's personality doesn't match, you can still end up with a "normal" colored GSD.

It's hard to find a liver in general unless you go to somebody that specifically breeds the fault


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Ah okay I understand better. See I'm willing to wait for a liver pup with the appropriate drive for me, but I do want to go through a reputable breeder. The problem is I can't seem to find a breeder anyone near reputable that breeds liver pups.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

With reputable breeders, livers/blues are quite literally a surprise 99.9% of the time. The other .1%, they know one parent carries liver/blue (through pedigree).

I will say I've seen lots of blues...I've never seen a liver.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

Would you have any recommendations as to breeders where I might possibly find a liver colored pup? Keep in mind I don't want a pup now, but rather a year or two in the future when Upendi's fully mature. I just want to do my research.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I honestly don't...I know of no breeders that have ever produced a liver (I'm sure they HAVE, they just kept it under wraps). I can ask around, but again...if anybody's had any recently, they certainly aren't letting on about it.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

upendi'smommy said:


> I know that it isn't a white shepherd, but I love the look of liver shepherds. Even though it's a serious fault in the show ring, and I don't believe a reputable breeder should go out of their way to produce them, I find them to be beautiful dogs.


WOW! Why -DON'T- we breed for beautiful dogs like this? That's something I don't like about breed 'standards' it leaves no room for improvement, and it's all opinion based. But, I'm really not a fan of the AKC to begin with.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

That's what I was afraid of. I really want to go through a reputable breeder, but from what I've read all of them try and kind of keep liver pups a secret. Bleh. I'm afraid this puppy may be as hard as that of someone searching for an otterhound pup. Although I know that, and that's why I'm starting to search years in advance.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> That's something I don't like about breed 'standards' it leaves no room for improvement


Bologna 

The whole point of the standard is so you CAN improve, so you can bring the breed as close to the written standard as possible.

With no standard, there honestly is nothing to breed for. Heck, even without a WRITTEN standard, we'd all be breeding for something standardized, and we'd likely still end up with the structural diversity we have.

Beauty of a dog cannot be based solely on "Ooo! Pretty color! Let's breed it!"

Breeding for color has nothing to do with improvement, it has to do with the most superficial of human aesthetics. At least with breeding for structure we find aesthetically pleasing, most can TRULY find a structural reason (theory) for it (and I'm talking about ALL lines).


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I know squat about German Shepherd coat color terminology obviously (I know even less about German Shepherds truly). What is called lilac or double dilute or isabella or blue liver in other breeds seems to be called "fawn" in the German Shepherd. (I'm just going by this page of photos with double dilute pups called "fawn"). 

http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/fawn.html

Anyway, the bluedogs sight might interest those who want to look at different colored German Shepherds. 

The first page of the site has photos of the different colors and also a photo of an older double dilute (bbdd) pup (Kaiser at the bottom). 

http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/

This is the pedigree of a Ch sired litter with three possible double dilute pups (I guess these guys can pop up anywhere!)

http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/litter-slvrblu.html

This is also a list of dilute allele carriers with pedigrees.

http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/dilutegsds.html


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Binkalette said:


> WOW! Why -DON'T- we breed for beautiful dogs like this? That's something I don't like about breed 'standards' it leaves no room for improvement, and it's all opinion based. But, I'm really not a fan of the AKC to begin with.


Because color is so, so far down the list of any reputable breeder's priorities that it's essentially immaterial? 

A recessive- especially one that's uncommon like that- will need to be specifically selected for in order to show up with any kind of regularity. I don't know about YOU, but I would much rather have my breeder focusing on health, temperament, drive, and mental soundness than a faddish color that (to be honest) usually *isn't* that pretty. (Think how many funky pinkish-nosed or weird yellowy-pink shades of chocolate you see in labs!)

I totally understand wanting a specific color. I really would love to have a brown spitz, or a wolf-sable. But I'm probably breeding Lizzie to another black dog or possibly a cream, because that's the dog that has the best health and temperament. And German Spitz have many, many less health concerns and a much 'easier' temperament than shepherds!


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Color is important though. Lets be honest, if you can't show liver, white, blue, esc. GSDs then they'll either be sold to as pet quality to a home...or they'll be culled. Breeders keep it a secret if those colors show up in the litter like it's something to be ashamed of. 
Maybe a reputable breeder won't breed for those colors but they'll do what they can to avoid those colors. Even if it means culling a perfectly healthy dog just because it isn't "show quality".
Oh, and by show quality, I mean the "right" color.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> Because color is so, so far down the list of any reputable breeder's priorities that it's essentially immaterial?
> 
> A recessive- especially one that's uncommon like that- will need to be specifically selected for in order to show up with any kind of regularity. I don't know about YOU, but I would much rather have my breeder focusing on health, temperament, drive, and mental soundness than a faddish color that (to be honest) usually *isn't* that pretty. (Think how many funky pinkish-nosed or weird yellowy-pink shades of chocolate you see in labs!)


I totally understand and agree with this point, as I don't believe breeders should be focusing on color *at all*. True to that statement, then, there should be no reason to EXCLUDE perfectly good dogs of the "wrong" color from breeding lines. 

It is the fact that dogs which possibly have great value are excluded that bothers me the most . . . 

. . . maybe empathy left over from my misfit childhood and my mixed race heritage.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> I totally understand and agree with this point, as I don't believe breeders should be focusing on color *at all*. True to that statement, then, there should be no reason to EXCLUDE perfectly good dogs of the "wrong" color from breeding lines.
> 
> It is the fact that dogs which possibly have great value are excluded that bothers me the most . . .
> 
> . . . maybe empathy left over from my misfit childhood and my mixed race heritage.


Don't conflate dogs and your feelings about your own heritage. It's a HUGE emotional trap to fall into, and it's not one that ANYONE who breeds (or wants to breed someday) can afford to fall into. I adore Mal- but he won't be bred. 

If the dogs of the 'wrong' color can work, then I think most GSD breeders would have fewer problems with them. I think that reputable breeders have long-ago selected AWAY from parents that produce 'wrong' colors and that the breeders who have nurtured those bloodlines have selected for color over working ability. There's nothing keeping those breeders from working the off-color dogs and proving them, and yet I couldn't find anything in about half an hour of google searches about any of these breeders breeding for dilutes achieving ANY titles with their dogs. (I came across some blue agility dogs- but they were from Camp Wolfgang, a TX GSD rescue- and competing at a fairly low level.)

All dogs POTENTIALLY have great value. But the color breeders need to put their money where their mouths are- like Von Tasz has- and WORK THEIR DOGS. 

I love WGSDs, and I'd love a Von Tasz dog in the future. I *know* working and trialling and showing are expensive, and I do think there are times that it makes sense to say "This dog is not what I want to show ro be known for showing, but I know he/she can produce it." (Rittie is a case in point- she will probably never get a performance title, although we'll see- she's not quite 5 and I've had her since November. I strongly want dogs titled at both ends, but in all likelihood, she's going to get a point or two in the breed ring and then retire to the sofa when I get a nice daughter to work and show.) BUT outside of special circumstances (getting an older dog from a breeder with different goals, injury), that sort of thing shouldn't be happening, and it shouldn't happen more than once or twice. If it happens consistantly in a breeding program, it means you're not producing to the level you ought to be and that you're misjudging potential. If that's the case, you need to go back to the drawing board and educate yourself better as to what a good dog is and what potential looks like.

There's nothing wrong with loving a particular color best in a breed. But any decent breeder knows and ACTS on the principle that the best dog is the best dog, regardless of color. Best means best all the way around- not just the prettiest color and markings. In some ways, it's a lot easier to be a pet owner who just wants a particular color.

This is why I own three tricolor collies, despite saying EVERY SINGLE TIME "This time, I want a merle!"


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> I know squat about German Shepherd coat color terminology obviously (I know even less about German Shepherds truly). What is called lilac or double dilute or isabella or blue liver in other breeds seems to be called "fawn" in the German Shepherd. (I'm just going by this page of photos with double dilute pups called "fawn").
> 
> http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/fawn.html
> 
> ...


A fawn is still a liver...just a light one. Just like they're labeling "powder blue" "steel blue"...they aren't real designations of color, only of shading.

Black and Red, black and silver, black and cream are all black and tan, it just has to do with the genetic shading of the dog that makes a dog appear darker or faded out


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Xeph said:


> A fawn is still a liver...just a light one. Just like they're labeling "powder blue" "steel blue"...they aren't real designations of color, only of shading.
> 
> Black and Red, black and silver, black and cream are all black and tan, it just has to do with the genetic shading of the dog that makes a dog appear darker or faded out



The designation or name of the color *IS* important because it denotes a different genotype. A black and silver is NOT a black and tan. There are different genes involved in each coloring. Yes they both have the same alleles on the agouti locus, BUT when naming a color as black and silver instead of black and tan that tells anyone with knowledge of coat color genetics that that dog also has dilute genes that the black and tan does not.

When someone tells me they have a black and tan dog, I expect black and tan, not black and cream nor black and silver.

A liver is d/d,B/B or d/d,B/b. A "fawn" or lilac or izabella is d/d,b/b every time. It is important to know that and to note it ESPECIALLY if you are breeding and that is why name designations are important in regards to coat colors in dogs. 

In regards to powder blue and steel blue, the site does not go into it and I can't be sure but I would think this may have do with the addition of the greying gene or possibly one yet undiscovered.

It is semantics I know, but in regards to coat color genetics in dogs you will find that those of us interested usually site the lack of common color names shared across dog breeds and the lack of semantics being used by breeders as a pet peave.

There is a dog colour genetics Yahoo group where indeed this pet peave has been discussed at length. Google and join if the topic interests you.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

So Xeph, typically what _would _a reputable breeder do with a litter of 6 blues or 6 livers if they want to keep it hush-hush that the pups were produced? Cull the puppies? Pet contracts? Not passing any judgement, wondering just cause I don't know.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Beauty of a dog cannot be based solely on "Ooo! Pretty color! Let's breed it!"


Then why ban certain colors from the standard at all then, if it's not a clear bias for a certain color over others. If the breeders were really 'above' such shallow things there would be no color DQ in the standard in the first place. Plenty of other breeds allow 'all colors'.

Even if the 'wrong colored' dog is perfect in every other way, too bad, cuz it's the 'wrong color'! That attitude is just as shallow as breeding SOLELY for color, imo.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> A black and silver is NOT a black and tan.


Yes, it is...I never said ANYTHING about agouti (sable) Silver is NOT Blue...blue is blue

In AKC all these ridiculous color names were added when people started trying to sell "rare' colors.



> http://www.longcoatgermanshepherds.com/files/kona.JPG


Black and silver (AKA poorly pigmented)

All black and tan/black and silver/black and cream/black and red are are variations of pigment/shading.

People designate colors because it makes things easier ( especially to market >.<), doesn't make it correct.

We have color designations for Sable too...red, black, gold...but they're all still "just" sable, and you register them ONLY as sable. Not Red Sable or Black Sable or Silver Sable...just Sable



> So Xeph, typically what would a reputable breeder do with a litter of 6 blues or 6 livers if they want to keep it hush-hush that the pups were produced? Cull the puppies? Pet contracts? Not passing any judgement, wondering just cause I don't know.


In American circles they're likely to just sell on pet contracts to pet homes...but one woman stated she's not seen a liver in 30 years. Blues yes, but no livers.

The German side of things tends to cull puppies. They are what the whites used to be...verboten.



> Then why ban certain colors from the standard at all then, if it's not a clear bias for a certain color over others.


Blues and livers are a combination of issues...they're "seriously faulted" for having pale color, however, THAT isn't what disqualifies them. What disqualifies them is that the nose of the GSD MUST be black...theirs aren't (and can't be), so they're disqualified on a technicality



> Plenty of other breeds allow 'all colors'.


And plenty of others don't...and others still restrict what PATTERN a dog can even have.



> Even if the 'wrong colored' dog is perfect in every other way, too bad, cuz it's the 'wrong color'!


Yup, because there are plenty of other dogs that are the "right color" with the same (or better) attributes that can still be used


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Yes, it is...I never said ANYTHING about agouti (sable)


Maybe you didn't know you did, but you did. It's that semantics thing. Black and tan and its variations are determined initially by the Agouti locus, which holds the alleles for sable, wolf pattern, probably but not necessarily saddleback, black/tan and recessive black. The variation of the tan or black colors happen because of the other dilute alleles.

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/agouti.html



Xeph said:


> Silver is NOT Blue...blue is blue)


This is true, but in one dog it would be possible to have both blue (d locus) AND silver (graying gene) making a "light blue".



Xeph said:


> In AKC all these ridiculous color names were added when people started trying to sell "rare' colors.
> 
> Black and silver (AKA poorly pigmented)
> 
> ...


These color names were not "added". There are whole breeds which had these rare colors long before they were just bred for their sale-ability. In the study of coat color names geneticists look at the color names most commonly used in these established breeds and extend them to all canines. The terms lilac and izabella come from the Great Dane breed I believe. It is not ridiculous but important in these breeds to know the proper color names and the genotype they refer to. Of course these names should transfer to other canine breeds.



Xeph said:


> We have color designations for Sable too...red, black, gold...but they're all still "just" sable, and you register them ONLY as sable. Not Red Sable or Black Sable or Silver Sable...just Sable)


Interesting. In some Tibetan breeds there are designations for silver sable, black sable, red sable etc. right on the pedigree sights. Because I'm admittedly a pick about this, in conversation I always state colors with specifics. Must depend on the traditions in the breed.



Xeph said:


> Blues and livers are a combination of issues...they're "seriously faulted" for having pale color, however, THAT isn't what disqualifies them. What disqualifies them is that the nose of the GSD MUST be black...theirs aren't (and can't be), so they're disqualified on a technicality
> 
> And plenty of others don't...and others still restrict what PATTERN a dog can even have.
> 
> Yup, because there are plenty of other dogs that are the "right color" with the same (or better) attributes that can still be used


I think this is where some people like myself take exception to color specifics in breed standards. To restrict the color of the nose of a dog or the color of the coat without there being any health reasons to do so just seems so trivial. I know many of these restriction were decided upon to make sure crossbreeding didn't occur and to clearly define the "look" of a breed, but then to me, a fan of the historical landrace type of breeding where breeds were defined by temperament and purpose (a working English Shepherd and a working Border Collie can look identical, but are very different by temperament and working style), definint a breed by its look and its purity seems like an odd requirement as well. 

It is something I have no problem agreeing to disagree on though, as neither side will ever convince one another of the importance or lack thereof of colors or many other things.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> These color names were not "added"


In AKC they were...you do not have "Black and Silver" and all those other silly designations in the German registrations

They are: 
Black and Brown
Black and Tan
Black
Gray (Sable)
Gray and Tan

There is no black and red, silver, cream, etc

And there's nothing "rare" about poor pigment

Personally I think blues are quite striking...I tend not to care for livers because their red faces give me the willies.

If both colors had darker eyes, I'd have one. My own sable male has eyes that are too light, and I find them a bit creepy and lacking in expression...he actually looks more expressive in profile than he does in frontal view x.x


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> I know squat about German Shepherd coat color terminology obviously (I know even less about German Shepherds truly). What is called lilac or double dilute or isabella or blue liver in other breeds seems to be called "fawn" in the German Shepherd. (I'm just going by this page of photos with double dilute pups called "fawn").
> 
> http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/fawn.html
> 
> ...


I'd just like to point out that even on that site Kaiser is labeled a liver and not a fawn, as he's a nice dark liver color and not so washed out. And Xeph is right fawn is just a lighter variation of liver.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

upendi'smommy said:


> I'd just like to point out that even on that site Kaiser is labeled a liver and not a fawn, as he's a nice dark liver color and not so washed out. And Xeph is right fawn is just a lighter variation of liver.


I just went back and looked and you are right. I had seen the sight before, and found it this time by google image searching "izabella german shepherd" and it came up with Kaiser's image labelled that way and that photo of him when younger and "pinker". His adult pictures show more pigment. He still does look light to me for a liver but I'm not accustomed to seeing these colors in Shepherds at all, and liver (or chocolate) usually comes with more pigment in breeds that I see commonly (like the lab).

Fawn, of course IS a lighter variation of liver but it has to be noted that it is caused by additional dilute genes on a totally different locus. By giving the lighter version its own name (like FAWN or LILAC or IZABELLA) you are designating that there are other genes at play that cause that variation. 

I will add that calling "Fawn" just a "light liver" is comparable to calling a Chocolate Lab a "Light Black" Lab, as a chocolate lab IS just the diluted variation of the black lab. It is much more accurate to have real names for these colors.

Those are the semantics that are important to people who are breeding or dealing with these colors in these lines. There are people that study this to the point of coming up with DNA tests for the colors (Sheila Schmutz is one) They are trying to help dog breeders by encouraging the use of common terminology between the breeds. 

I certainly will support them toward that goal, as it is much easier to cheek swab a dog you think carries a color (and find out if it does) rather than create extra pups through test matings. This is especially important in breeds where most or all colors are allowed.

As an example, American Cocker Spaniels has long been a breed almost subdivided by color with breeders limiting themselves to breeding within a single color or maybe two close colors, and therefore limiting their choices in pairings. As time goes by they are finding themselves in a limited gene pool. Having knowledge of how these genes interact and a way to test allows these breeders who seem to favor certain colors, to diversify within their own breed to lines of other colors and know what they are going to get in the pups with certainty. This diversification is helpful for the breed as a whole.


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## ParadiseCreekGSD (Jun 27, 2011)

Xeph said:


> You mean the same guy from a year or two ago that chooses to ignore the standard for no other reason than he wants to? Not breeding for standard makes him a BYB
> 
> The Paradise Creek site is a lie. The original GSDs were NEVER that large x.x
> 
> ...


I know this post is a bit old, but I feel I need to reply to it.

I do not OFA!!! I PennHip which is better than 3 doctors sitting around giving their opinion on what they are viewing. I have sent OFA Xrays in to one and came back with one score, then sent out the same Xrays to another and came back with another score. Which tells me their is no set standard!!!

OFA is solely based on opinion and isn't a scientific analysis. You actually get hard core numbers with PennHip which gives the breeder a better understanding of where his Dam or Sire is on the scale.

Example: If you are a responsible breeder and are trying to breed to tighter Hips, then you will always breed a lower number to a higher number. Which slowly brings you to the ultimate goal. With OFA... you either have Normal, Good or Excellent and any one of those has a wide range. Then again.... what was "Excellent" to one Doctor would be "Good" to another. So you really have no idea where your breeding stock is to begin with.

I have 4 Dams in that have been spade within my Kennel because they DID NOT meet the standards in which Max von Stephanitz set out for. Yet they still live here and were not tossed aside because they will never get me that ribbon or title.

I don't post the results or the pedigrees on my web site because of idiots copying it and using it for malicious crap, which is one less thing a puppy mill has to use.

If someone is interested in the results, the pedigree or the x-rays, then I am more than happy to provide them. I have everything in hard copy and digital format. I am more than willing to let them talk to my vet if they are that determined. Actually.... I praise anyone who actually goes that far to do their research.

I only SELL limited AKC registration. I deal with a certain group of breeders who share information, have the same goals and we allow out cross just between us. I keep track of every puppy that leaves here to the best of my ability so I know how they progress throughout their lives. That way if I need to make changes within my program, I can do it with a clear conscious knowing it is better for the breed and not my wallet or "Love Me Wall"

I assume you are the same jack ass that sent me a nasty e-mail a few years back and I will tell you the same thing now as I did before....

If you are interested in the perpetual carpet stain master "show dog", then more power to you. Everybody has a certain idea of what a GSD should be and yours is just a few inches away from dragging it's ass across the carpet.

If the GSD is only worth a blue ribbon to you then I feel sorry for the blood line in which you are promoting. I have seen breeders of the "Show boats" complain because the dogs have literally lost a lot of the traits in which they were original bred for.

When someone who shows GSD in the ring decided to get up and find a better spot and 40 of the GSD's around her get so scared, pissing in their Kennels and cowering in the back, then their is a serious issue.

The pendulum swings both ways.... If you are strictly breeding for police dogs and ignore the other traits, then the GSD suffers and loses another set of traits. Most people don't want a Shepherd which bounces off the walls, overly protective and extremely territorial with a roach back.

A breeder should be looking at all the traits which made the GSD the dog it once was. A dog with the intelligence to know danger, act when necessary (not when frightened), capable of running alongside you for a few miles, laying down at your feet for the entire day WITHOUT going stir crazy and capable of living to a healthy age of 12+ with being medicated most of his/her life.

Somewhere along the way breeders have forgotten that in search of the title or ribbon.

I have presented the differences on my web site and if the information struck a cord with you, then obviously the truth hurts. It is well documented with plenty of resources, so next time you want to run your mouth, at least do some research!!!

I DO NOT breed for the money, the ribbon or the title!!!! I breed strictly for the breed itself!! I CAN NOT please everyone (obviously) and if someone received a puppy from me and was unsatisfied, then that puppy comes back to me. MY FIRST priority is the dog!!!

I give a guarantee Hip and/or in case of Genetic defect!!! Yes... it still happens no matter how hard you try because the "show boats" had over 40 years to screw with the line, so it will take awhile to breed that out of them.

By the way..... My Shepherds have also been donated to children with cerebral palsy, so they are capable of doing both and they won't drag their ass while doing it!!!

http://www.yourdailyjournal.com/vie...ld?instance=newssecondary_stories_left_column

"Not all good dogs are champions, and not all champions are good dogs" 
This is the German Shepherd by Capt. WM Goldbecker

Perhaps you should try reading that book!!!!

God Bless,
Paradise Creek German Shepherds
www.pcgermanshepherds.com


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

I'm not a German Shepherd fan, but I gotta say the ones from this last poster are a lot better looking that the ones with the really sloped backs. I'm not very knowledgeable about the breed... but they look a lot healthier and better put together than a lot of German Shepherds I have seen. As far as this ridiculous color debate... as long as a dog is healthy people should get off their snooty breed BS and appreciate the dog for the dog!! I personally could care less about breed standards and regulations... if a dog is healthy and has a good temperament that is all that matters to me. Personal experience... mutts on farms are the longest living and happiest dogs I've met... probably because they aren't being bred for certain colors or characteristics and are allowed to be DOGS.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I assume you are the same jack ass that sent me a nasty e-mail a few years back and I will tell you the same thing now as I did before....


Uh, yeah....not me.



> Everybody has a certain idea of what a GSD should be and yours is just a few inches away from dragging it's ass across the carpet.


Mine all train/compete in various venues. Rally, obedience, agility, herding, etc, soooo.....

I don't care for dogs that I cannot do performance/work with.



> I have presented the differences on my web site and if the information struck a cord with you, then obviously the truth hurts.


Yes....and you presented it wrong. Your "international working lines" are more than that. There's Czech, DDR/East German and West German Working.

And your "international show line" and "North American" show line pics show the same type of lines....European show lines. You didn't post any ACTUAL American lined dogs.


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## ParadiseCreekGSD (Jun 27, 2011)

> assume you are the same jack ass that sent me a nasty e-mail a few years back and I will tell you the same thing now as I did before....





> *Xeph:* Uh, yeah....not me.


Let me be the first one to apologize for making an assumption then.



> Everybody has a certain idea of what a GSD should be and yours is just a few inches away from dragging it's ass across the carpet.





> *Xeph:* Mine all train/compete in various venues. Rally, obedience, agility, herding, etc, soooo.....
> 
> I don't care for dogs that I cannot do performance/work with.


That would be your prerogative and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavor. I don’t have the time or the desire to compete for such titles. Paradise Creek is strictly for the love of the breed and doesn’t make enough money for me to quit my full time job in search of the title or ribbon.
Since you are so familiar with the competition, then you should also be familiar with Valiantdale line which happens to be very strong within my own line. The line carries titles such as UD, TD and CDX to name a few, but like I mentioned before…. I am not interested in titles, just the overall health and temperament of the GSD. I am sure it was an honest mistake since I don’t post my pedigrees and you never bothered to call or email me requesting them, instead you made an “assumption”.




> I have presented the differences on my web site and if the information struck a cord with you, then obviously the truth hurts.





> *Xeph:* Yes....and you presented it wrong. Your "international working lines" are more than that. There's Czech, DDR/East German and West German Working.
> 
> And your "international show line" and "North American" show line pics show the same type of lines....European show lines. You didn't post any ACTUAL American lined dogs.


You should take it up with the G.S.D.C.A. and the I.W.G.S.D.C. and complain to them about misrepresenting their dogs since that is the source I used to present the different lines.

Sorry for my abrasive post earlier, but I thought I had no choice but to defend my Kennel from a complete stranger who thought it to be wise to state something they had no clue about or ever intended research for themselves. In the future…. Make sure you have all your ducks in the row before going out on a limb and making such disparaging remarks.
“I say tomato and you say tomahto”
Thank you for the kind words from those who had them.

Paradise Creek GSD
www.pcgermanshepherds.com


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Make sure you have all your ducks in the row before going out on a limb and making such disparaging remarks.


While some of my opinions have changed over the years (and it is good to know you PennHip), I will admit I stand behind the majority of what I said (two years ago)....you're not a breeder I'd recommend, but you'll breed what you want to breed.

I require my own dogs to be titled on both ends...preferably before breeding (very doable for the boys...the girls can be harder due to heats and litters). I won't breed an entirely untitled animal of my own (there has been ONE untitled stud dog I've looked at ever....and he was a dog I've worked personally and extensively). Working the dog tells me what the dog REALLY is. My dogs just being pets tells me nothing other than that they can be suitable pets.

I am not looking for suitable...I am looking for exceptional.


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## ParadiseCreekGSD (Jun 27, 2011)

Sorry to hear that. 
"To each is his own"

I would be happy to recommend you next time someone calls looking for a title from the parents. I will let them all know that there is a breeder with an extensive 7 years of experience with breeding titled GSD's in Virginia who can tell you everything you know.

Don't worry about the 20+ years I have or 50+ years of proven lines that I have, thats just window dressing.

Have a nice day Jackie


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh god the "My (insert length of time) experience!" show down. Big deal. I have less than a year experience in my field and I'm more knowledgeable and undeniably better than a lot of hair stylists out there. 

How do I know when the thread title says GSD it will generally be more than 2 pages?


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## ParadiseCreekGSD (Jun 27, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Oh god the "My (insert length of time) experience!" show down. Big deal. I have less than a year experience in my field and I'm more knowledgeable and undeniably better than a lot of hair stylists out there.
> 
> How do I know when the thread title says GSD it will generally be more than 2 pages?


ROFL
Perhaps GSD lovers are just a bit passionate about their breed. Thanks for putting in perspective


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

ParadiseCreekGSD- like I said I'm not a GSD fan (not that I dislike them, I'm just a pit bull lover lol) but I think your dogs are very pretty and I like the straight backs way better. I think that some people should stop wasting their time spewing bad things about people over the internet that they don't even know. If you want to put someone down and act all high and mighty why don't you complain about a legitimate issue like puppy mills, dog fighters, or animal abuse in general? I'm no breeding expert but ParadiseCreek obviously loves his dogs and they appear to be well taken care of... if you don't want to do business with someone fine but its a shame to bash someone over and over like you're so much better than them.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

ParadiseCreekGSD said:


> ROFL
> Perhaps GSD lovers are just a bit passionate about their breed. Thanks for putting in perspective


Well don't take all the credit! I've seen Aussie threads get just as crazy on a dog forum or two in my day. I will just happily sit back with my Dachshund. ;D


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## ParadiseCreekGSD (Jun 27, 2011)

KatG,
You are absolutely right!!! My last post was a bit over the top. I was offended when another breeder pointed out someone was calling me a liar and bashing the kennel. Let me appologize to the rest of the board members for allowing this to get under my skin. Next time I will just let my GSD's speak for themselfs.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

ParadiseCreek, I am another one who absolutely LOVES the dogs you breed. They look healthy and happy and like others, I enjoy the straight-backed GSDs way better than the sloping ones I see at dog shows. 

Mason, especially, is one of the lovelier GSDs I've seen in a while  Keep at it, and your love of the breed and dedication to keeping it healthy is very recognizable, in my opinion!


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## ParadiseCreekGSD (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks for the compliments!!!

Mason is my big hairy lovable ox and happens to be a great foot warmer to boot. I try to sneak him into my bed every chance I get when his human Mommy isn't watching


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> While some of my opinions have changed over the years (and it is good to know you PennHip), I will admit I stand behind the majority of what I said (two years ago)....you're not a breeder I'd recommend, but you'll breed what you want to breed.
> 
> I require my own dogs to be titled on both ends...preferably before breeding (very doable for the boys...the girls can be harder due to heats and litters). I won't breed an entirely untitled animal of my own (there has been ONE untitled stud dog I've looked at ever....and he was a dog I've worked personally and extensively). Working the dog tells me what the dog REALLY is. My dogs just being pets tells me nothing other than that they can be suitable pets.
> 
> I am not looking for suitable...I am looking for exceptional.


Totally agree here.


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