# My dog yelps with a prong collar?



## Bayonet (Dec 26, 2012)

Hello guys!

I have come to you to ask a question I can't really find a straight-forward answer on. As a disclaimer, I do not believe in the slightest that prong collars are cruel or medieval torture, so please.. If you plan on bashing this type of collar it is not contributing to my questions and will not be very appreciated.


I adopted a 5 year old Pharaoh Hound/Catahoula Leopard Dog mix in October. She was found as a stray, so background is unknown. When I got her, she was EXTREMELY unruly, especially on a leash. I have tried almost every collar on the market, all with 0 results. Then I turned to the prong collar. The difference was phenomenal. She now 9 times out of 10 will walk loose leash right next to me with no corrections needed. Any corrections given were very light. However, she is pretty dog aggressive (another issue I am working on currently), and everytime we pass by another dog on the same side of the street, she WILL lunge. And when I correct, she yelps. However she will continue to lunge. I have noticed her yelping behavior before, and it seems like if she doesn't get her way it's her reaction to me asserting my position as the boss. I've only seen her get hurt once, and she yelped with an accommodating snap. I guess my real question here is is she yelping in protest of my corrections, out of surprise, or out of pain? I went out of my way to ensure that the prong collar is not too tight, and I do not yank with all my might to correct (usually she'll lunge too fast for me to react, and cause herself a big yank). She still loves going for walks, and she does not seem jaded by me in the slightest.


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## Bayonet (Dec 26, 2012)

Oh also.. After reviewing the pictures I thought I'd mention that she is NOT wearing the prong collar in these pictures, it's a choke chain that I only use inside the house. Her red collar is obscenely large and she can easily slip from it.


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## beretw (Sep 25, 2012)

Are you sure that the prong is properly fitted?


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## Bayonet (Dec 26, 2012)

Absolutely. It is not directly behind her ears, but definitely not down at the base of her neck. She is a sighthound, so her neck is incredibly long and skinny. I always put it on right behind the ears, but it usually slips a bit lower. I cannot remove anymore links to make it stay behind the ears, or else it will definitely be way too tight.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> Any corrections given were very light. However, she is pretty dog aggressive (another issue I am working on currently), and everytime we pass by another dog on the same side of the street, she WILL lunge. And when I correct, she yelps. However she will continue to lunge. I have noticed her yelping behavior before, and it seems like if she doesn't get her way it's her reaction to me asserting my position as the boss. I've only seen her get hurt once, and she yelped with an accommodating snap. I guess my real question here is is she yelping in protest of my corrections, out of surprise, or out of pain? I went out of my way to ensure that the prong collar is not too tight, and I do not yank with all my might to correct (usually she'll lunge too fast for me to react, and cause herself a big yank). She still loves going for walks, and she does not seem jaded by me in the slightest.


For one, although I do not consider prongs cruel and use them myself for certain dogs and certain situations, if a dog is yelping (generally a pain or fear response) then a prong may be cruel for THAT particular dog.

It doesn't matter if she is yelping in protest as you say, because her reasoning for protesting it would be that is it painful or scary to her in some way. 

Using corrections on a dog aggressive dog in the presence of other dogs has a big way of backfiring. Dog sees dog, lunges, feels pain. Dog associates the pain with the other dog and becomes MORE aggressive. If the issue is more of a leash reactivity case rather than true dog aggression, then the correction reinforces the reactivity; the dog tries to get rid of the other dog with snarls or barks because he associates other dogs with the leash correction and yet that is the very action that you are using a leash correction to try to stop.

Forget the "asserting yourself as boss" stuff. It is bunk and liable to create far more problems for the dog and for you by making your relationship with the dog based on her fear and submission rather than trust and cooperation. 

Just because she still likes walks doesn't mean she is okay with the prong collar. My dog ripped a toenail that was obviously painful and he still wanted to go for walks because the walk was worth dealing with the pain. Dogs will put up with a lot of bad things in order to enjoy what they consider good things.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I personally don't agree with things like prong collars or the like. Walking calmly on a leash has little to do with the type of collar you use. It's a training issue.

"and it seems like if she doesn't get her way it's her reaction to me asserting my position as the boss."
Incorrect. Dogs don't recognize a hierarchy status with people. 

It's very plausible that the prong collar is hurting her. 
Have you tried a martingale on her?




> Using corrections on a dog aggressive dog in the presence of other dogs has a big way of backfiring. Dog sees dog, lunges, feels pain. Dog associates the pain with the other dog and becomes MORE aggressive. If the issue is more of a leash reactivity case rather than true dog aggression, then the correction reinforces the reactivity; the dog tries to get rid of the other dog with snarls or barks because he associates other dogs with the leash correction and yet that is the very action that you are using a leash correction to try to stop.


Quoting this for emphasis.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Bayonet said:


> And when I correct, she yelps. However she will continue to lunge.


_"Only a fool fights in a burning house"_ ~ Klingon proverb, lol.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> For one, although I do not consider prongs cruel and use them myself for certain dogs and certain situations, if a dog is yelping (generally a pain or fear response) then a prong may be cruel for THAT particular dog.


Agree and yelping is not necessarily a reason to panic, many dogs will yelp and can still be worked through it. It's not for the faint of heart and experience is necessary.

I would purchase a Martingale collar, dogs cannot slip out of a Marti collar if adjusted properly. It will close to the dogs neck without the choking program.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't have an issue with a correctly used prong collar. But for reactivity on walks, I don't believe that a prong collar is the best tool. It does work for some dogs, and I've seen some dogs get much better after that type of training, but if it's not working, it's time to try other methods. Some dogs do react more when given a correction, not less, and you are then inadvertently making the problem worse.

So prong collar is fine for loose leash walking, but for reactivity on walks I would look into BAT (Behaviour Adjustment Training) and normal desensitisation and counter conditioning.


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## beretw (Sep 25, 2012)

Also, prongs are self-correcting. You don't need to issue a correction. This is an especially bad idea with DA or reactive dogs, as they can interpret the correction as coming from the other dog. How much distance are you creating when you come across another dog?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Additional thoughts:

For one, are you using the right size prong? I don't mean in terms of length but in terms of actual prong size. The smaller collars, which seem like they would be for smaller dogs, are actually harsher collars because the prong tips are "pokier." If I use a prong collar, I only use the large size which has the most blunt ends and which I have tried on my own leg to feel the impact level. The smallest collars are quite painful really while the largest one is just mildly uncomfortable.
If the dog has sensitive skin, they make rubber caps to fit over the metal ends of the collar. 



> I have tried almost every collar on the market, all with 0 results.


How long did you try these items and with what techniques?
I trained a leash reactive and selectively dog aggressive young dog on a plain "H" style harness using positive reinforcement and basically turning random directions all the time for training. She quickly learned to follow me and when a dog was passing us, I got her attention before the dog was near and worked to hold her attention while the dog passed by. It wasn't perfect but it was generally good and on the rare times she did lunge for a dog, there was no physical pain for her to associate with the other dog and I had a very solid grip on her (prongs can and do come loose, if the dog is aggressive there should ALWAYS be a back up clip like a carabiner attached to a martingale collar). She passed her CGC test after about 10-12 weeks of work with her.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

A number of people on this Forum are experienced with a prong collar. The idea is that you very briefly snap the collar and release with minimal pressure in order to get the dog's attention or distract him from other distractions. 

However, for most people, a prong collar doesn't work well after about a month, because the dog starts to realize that he isn't hurt, so they get used to any pain or discomfort, and start to ignore it.

I'm guessing that she yelps because your snap is not brief enough, providing too much pressure.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Wouldn't you yelp if there were prongs sticking in your neck?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

JulieK1967 said:


> Wouldn't you yelp if there were prongs sticking in your neck?


I think with me it would depend on who was was on other end of lead. In order for prongs to "stick" in my neck they would indeed have to be sharpened to points.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

I use a prong and so I don't see it as medieval torture device if used correctly. I also have a dog reactive dog, so maybe I can share my own experience.

I've never thought that I'd use a training collar (choke, prong) before. But then we went to a trainer that was supposed to use both reinforcement and corrections for our dog's reactivity issue. Turns out he's more old school than he seemed, believing in Cesar Millan dominance theory and not really updated in positive methods, but rather master in issuing collar corrections.

With enough correction intensity, he has always been able to stop my dog's reactivity no matter how bad it was. He has +20 years experience and again, is a master at jerking with the perfect angle, attitude and intensity plus timing. Dominant aura is all over him.

But with me and my husband, things were not as easy. We could jerk as harsh as we attempt to, but in situations in which our dog's reactivity is too high, we would only worsen the situation, as if adding oil to fire. The only times we can cut the reactivity is when it is low to mild.

The key is that the correction intensity must be higher than the reactivity intensity. If the correction intensity is lower, than it only serves to build up the reactivity even worse.

Actually, do you know that prongs are used for motivating dogs to bite more, at least in older ways of dog guard training? The pain that is not too much but that is there enough to motivate them to bite and continue biting.

Prong is not a good tool to deal with reactivity issues, it has that big pitfall. Many prong users only uses it to correct lack of focus but would never correct for reactivity.

Funny is, that trainer did not understand why it did not work well with us. He who is the master at prongs should have known its properties better than anyone.
But in any ways, since we never really agreed with many aspects of his philosophy, we ended up stopping the classes.

Right now, we still have the prong while we seek for another solution. What we do is, whenever we cross path with another dogs, we try to tell our dog "go go go!" and avoid correction or only use small corrections (if he tries to change walking direction). With "go go go!", he would still growl but then he would continue walking forward. And if we ever let reactivity escalate too high, correction would be avoided and we would simply walk away from the other dog instead.

Right now, we found another trainer that is a positive one. We did not start classes yet, but he told us to start doing another method during our walks. Unfortunately, it did not go well and I need the prong again to reduce reactivity to minimum (we realized that our boy had grown up more and now we might be dragged if he pulls too much and we are not careful).
But on the other hand, I'm thinking about another method that seems great. Check the following videos:

http://abrionline.org/videos.php (the videos are called "Working with on-leash aggression" and "Tips for Handling a Dog-Reactive Dog")

In these videos, gentle leader (a head halti) is used. You can do gradual approach towards other dogs, and if the dog reacts or is about to, you can turn his muzzle to another direction, breaking eye contact, or you can simply apply some pressure so that it shuts the muzzle. Of course, you have to have a minimum distance so that your dog wouldn't feel too stressed, while if she reacts, you take away a bit of her defense capacity (turning her away and shutting her muzzle) so that she would learn to focus on you and that reacting is not good. This is a gentler way, a different kind of punishment and has much less chance to worsen the reactivity like prongs. Also, there's no constant neck pressure like flat collars.
I'm seriously considering to try this myself.


By the way, almost forgot about the yelping. Well I can say that at least for my own dog, he doesn't really yelp even when corrected harshly by my trainer (which is another thing I don't agree with him). But he can yelp and cry in frustration sometimes when he sees other dogs and I restrain his movement and even ask him for sit, even when I don't correct at all. I compare it to human (kids?) feeling frustrated and angry whenever not being able to reach something and is ordered to stay still and/or is restricted.
But you have to be observant and see how your dog reacts to corrections of the same intensity when you correct in a different situation. Also, depending on the perfect angle and intensity, sometimes a correction that seemed to be of the usual intensity might end up being harsher or really hurting.

All in all, if your dog is dog reactive, you might want to resort to other tools instead of corrective ones. If you can find a positive trainer then it would be better. Our current trainer is one, and he is not the kind that looks at prongs disgustingly but he knows that it's not the best tool and has better methods instead. I personally feel that trainers that looks at methods objectively and without emotional judgment are the best. I feel that I can trust him for not discarding corrective methods just coz he doesn't like them, but rather coz he knows better alternatives.


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## amosmoses89 (Jun 19, 2011)

Try these. I find visual aids incredibly helpful and this woman is awesome!!


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Why are you using a choke chain inside the house? You're training this dog using entirely negative reinforcement, aren't you?

Please stop. Please.

You can train a dog without causing pain, fear or itimidation. It really isn't necessary. I've done it. With a dog aggressive dog. A 90 lb GSD mix whose dog aggression went up to 11. I never once used a prong or choke collar. Just treats and a lot of work.

Ditch the collars, buy a good fitting harness and watch the videos above. Please.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I think with me it would depend on who was was on other end of lead. In order for prongs to "stick" in my neck they would indeed have to be sharpened to points.


You don't like "stick"? How's "poke" or "jab"? Regardless of the semantics, it's a tool designed to hurt dogs in order to train them. I certainly wouldn't want one of those things around my neck and I fail to see how my choice of word changes anything about the purpose of that particular tool.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

JulieK1967 said:


> You don't like "stick"? How's "poke" or "jab"? Regardless of the semantics, *it's a tool designed to hurt dogs in order to train them*. I certainly wouldn't want one of those things around my neck and I fail to see how my choice of word changes anything about the purpose of that particular tool.


I disagree. While the prong is certainly used to cause discomfort in the dog, I wouldn't agree that it actually _hurts _the dog. Be as they may, choice of words send a message so one should be careful in choosing the words they use to describe something.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> I disagree. While the prong is certainly used to cause discomfort in the dog, I wouldn't agree that it actually _hurts _the dog. Be as they may, choice of words send a message so one should be careful in choosing the words they use to describe something.


Discomfort, hurt, that's just more semantics. We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I personally find it a disgusting tool and I hate seeing it being used. Yes, I fully know what the word "disgusting" means and I fully mean it.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

ANY dog can be taught loose-leash walking with a regular collar. You don't need a pinch collar but you DO have to train (FYI, we do use a pinch for specific purposes - NOT for training LLW).

Many, many web resources will tell you how to do it, including some with videos- any basic dog training book will cover it - and there is a "sticky" on the top of this forum that explains it very well.

If you have a very reactiVe dog, once you have taught LLW, you would then teach the "Look At That" game.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

JulieK1967 said:


> Discomfort, hurt, that's just more semantics. We'll have to agree to disagree on this issue. I personally find it a disgusting tool and I hate seeing it being used. Yes, I fully know what the word "disgusting" means and I fully mean it.


LOL.. okay...

As long as you realize hurt is a FAR leap from discomfort, then yes, we can agree to disagree.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If a dog is yelping I kind of think that would qualify as pain (causing pain = hurting, unless the English language has changed recently ). I'm not totally against prong collars but I don't think people should lie to themselves either.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Yes, prong collars are meant to cause discomfort to a degree. But they shouldn't be causing "pain" to the point of a dog yelping, cowering or showing any other signs of distress or hurt.

I know that the prong collar is uncomfortable for the brief second that it is engaged. I also know that it puts less pressure on his neck and has less sharpness to it than the teeth of the other dog when they are wrestling hard and playing "bitey face" and gnawing on each other's necks (quite happily I might add). I tested the collar on myself before ever putting it on my dog.

I use one on my hound dog when I expect to be around deer or fast moving prey animals (rabbits, geese and such). ALL it is for is to give me that half second break in his attention on the prey to issue a command. He walks very well on a loose leash, he knows stay and leave it etc. But if he sees a deer before I do, there isn't anything short of some physical action that will break his focus and desire to chase. I could wave raw meat under his nose and he wouldn't even notice. On a harness- which he wears about 90% of the time- he has the strength to pull down a grown man while a head collar is more risky for chance of neck injury.

On the flip side, there are some dogs that are completely unsuitable for a prong collar and other dogs that have no need at all. People raising a dog from a puppy have a physical advantage in that they can begin teaching LLW with a dog that can't drag them down the street  I've used a prong collar in addition to a harness to train walking, that gives me the gentleness of a plain harness with the "oh crap" control of the prong if absolutely needed. My goal for all the dogs that come through my house is to walk nicely on a plain harness (not a no-pull harness, just a regular step-in or H style) and so far, I am 5 for 5 on that in 95% of situations; but yes, in some of those cases a prong collar was a successful stop along the way.

I've seen dogs in pain from the "gentle" head collars and dogs choking themselves on martingales and flat collars. Of course both require training but there is still that time frame for a person to train the dog and the bad habits a dog might come with from another owner that have to be worked past. If someone gets a new adult dog and puts a flat collar on it and steps out the door for the dog to yank the leash out their hand and run away (I have seen this happen) then how is that better than having caused slight discomfort with a prong and had a safe and successful walk? 
Each is simply a tool which needs to be assessed for a given dog and a given situation. 

In the case of the OP, all the indications are that the prong is not suitable to this dog, regardless of its advantages and disadvantages for any other dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

JulieK1967 said:


> You don't like "stick"? How's "poke" or "jab"? Regardless of the semantics, it's a tool designed to hurt dogs in order to train them. I certainly wouldn't want one of those things around my neck and I fail to see how my choice of word changes anything about the purpose of that particular tool.


Poke and jab is a much better description. The pupose of that particular tool is training, no more no less.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> LOL.. okay...
> 
> As long as you realize hurt is a FAR leap from discomfort, then yes, we can agree to disagree.


As long as "I" realize? LMAO! Man, the patronizing that goes one here is thick. Yeah, we're done here.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> If you plan on bashing this type of collar it is not contributing to my questions and will not be very appreciated.


Let me be very clear about this before you get yourself in trouble here.

When you ask for opinions, or state an opinion of your own, on an open forum, you open yourself up for contradictory opinions. You don't get to pre-qualify what types of opinions can be expressed. It would be a very tedious forum if everyone agreed on everything.


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