# Why are pit bulls so discriminated against?



## THE_biggest_canine_lover (Dec 26, 2010)

I was watching a show earlier and this lady didn't want adopt this dog because there was a possibility he had some pit bull in him. I don't know what you guys think or what is true but I personally believe that its how the dog is raised which will make up its personality. Sure there breed may give the dog a few instinctual habits, but as long as you get the dog socializing at a young age with small kids and other dogs, wouldn't it be ok? How much more dangerous is a pit bull then a german shepherd, isn't the german shepherd alot stronger, which should make it potentially more dangerous.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

I find if you hang around a while here you will notice everyone here respects the pit bull breed and we do not sucker into media hype. Pit bulls are not a breed for everyone this is fact but it has nothing to due with the temperament of the dog and everything to do with potential owners. All breeds and all dogs have their own criteria. Working dogs need people who are pretty active and somewhat strong willed have a bit of a lengthier patience level. Herding dogs need people who are extremely active and can really entertain the dog mentally . Toy dogs need people with a good lap and depending on the breed a good yard. All dogs are different and require people that match their needs..think of it as e harmony for dogs you got to find the right match. 

Pit Bulls do not have an instinctual habit to attack people they don't have instinctual habit to fight. They are actually instinctual loving dogs that are great with kids fantastic working dogs and wonderful companions. There is no difference in their trainable then any other dog in his stature and they are extremely smart. They can be willful with people they can "run over" but this comes with any "bully" breed. I think you will find that if anyone takes the time to do any kind of reasonable research on the breed and actually interact one with that has been trained by someone with a half a brain that they are as great as any other dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Actually, pit bulls DO have an "instinctual habit to fight". It's what they were originally bred for, and it does nothing good for the breed to dismiss their natural inclinations. Yes, pit bulls do have a tendency toward being aggressive with other dogs. This is not exclusive to pit bills (my LAB was dog-aggressive!), and is fully manageable. And not all pit bulls will be dog-aggressive, but it is necessary to acknowledge the tendency. They should, however, always be good with humans. This is, in my opinion, the main reason for their huge popularity (which is never good for a breed, because the more popular the breed is, the more irresponsible twits will own them. Irresponsible twits do not make good dog owners). The way that many pit bulls are kept would lead to large-scale disaster with a less tolerant breed.

As for why they're so discriminated against, well, there's always some breed that people like to get hysterical about. In the 80s, it was Rottweilers. Dobes, bloodhounds, GSDs, and many other breeds have all had periods of being the scapegoat breed for the media. Eventually they'll get sick of picking on pit bulls, and will move on to some other breed.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

While the purpose of breeding may have been for a stronger more powerful dog to fight each each other I still don't believe that instinctively it wants to fight. I think it has been shown by too many people that trained young and provided proper socialization that it can be friendly to any animal . I believe the media has done so good at it's job and people have used the dog for its purpose for so long people just truly believe that this dog is a naturally aggressive or can be an aggressive dog or the way some people make it sound WANT to be an aggressive . I just don't buy into that. I think any breed not socialized and not handled correctly CAN become aggressive to animals and dogs a like. I mean this is just my opinion you don't have to take it for face value .


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## Rinchan (Jan 4, 2011)

Well the media doesn't do any good for them. Especially with people falsly claiming that a dog attack was by a pit bull when it was a different breed all together. I think when most people hear about pit bulls they think of fighting dogs and dogs that attack people. I can't convince my mother that they can be great pets, all I hear is "well on the news blah blah blah"

I think dogs such as Rotties, GSDs, Dobermans are still discriminated against. When I tell people that I want to own a GSD someday, the first thing most say is "That dog could attack you!" and I usually respond with "yes it could, as could a golden retriever or a lab." To which I get a response "but labs and golden retrievers are such nice dogs!" >.< Its hopeless sometimes.

I often wonder if the two shows on animal planet, Pit Boss and Pitbulls and parolees will help or hurt pit bulls in the long run. I do remember a story I read in Dog Fancy magazine about a guy, who said that he would not have adopted a pit bull before seeing Pits and Parolees, but that is only one case.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

In my mind the best the thing those shows could do, and I love them watch both of them, lol , is they are at least positive media. And when things get into the media that is just how it plays out good cop bad cop. I am hoping it will start to open peoples eyes some but you know people love to choose ignorance sometimes. It is just easier to accept what people tell them to it makes them feel safer. I get comments all the time about how scary my "pit bull looks" I dont even bother telling them isn't a pit bull because it dosent bug me I just smile and go yea she is one big scary monster. And what is great is she dosent even look like a pitbull so like Rinchan said 50% of the time people don't even know what the hell a pit bull looks like.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

But it's not a matter of opinion. For instance, herding dogs were bred to herd. If you don't have a flock of sheep for them to herd, they will herd the kids or the cats, or _something_. This is instinctual behavior for them and can't be trained out, although it can be managed and directed toward more constructive pursuits. 

Same for dogs who were originally bred to fight. The behavior can be managed and directed toward more constructive pursuits, but some dogs will always have that "gameness", and that can't be trained out. Some dogs are dog-aggressive. That's not a bash on the dogs, or the breeds that are inclined toward dog-aggression, it's just a statement of fact. It's not really a big deal. There are manymany dogs (of any breed) who were socialized and trained properly, who "turned on" at a certain age and became dog-aggressive. It's just they way they are. But like I said, dog-aggression is not a big deal, it's entirely managable. Not every dog is doggie daycare material.


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## Rinchan (Jan 4, 2011)

Yes I do love that the shows give pit bulls some positive press and portray the dogs in a positive light. However, go to Pit boss's imdb page and there is some guy that posts stories about pitbull attacks and mocks the idea of them being a misunderstood breed. Some people really hae it out for this breed. And PETA's stupid article about having them banned and pts doesn't help <.<

I have noticed that people are afraid of dobermans too. In every story that needs an evil dog, it is usually the doberman. Has there been any movies where the dobie wasn't the villian?


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

My matter of opinion is not towards weather or not they are naturally go lucky friendly with other dogs but that their is this image about them just being instinctively aggressive in general which I don't think is true at all. I don't believe any dog is just going around naturally wanting "fight" something. They may be more guarded or less inclined to flight and more enticed to fight when they are nervous or apprehensive of a new dog but I think that is different then aggression. it is a strong willed dog and very fearless. I feel traits like these can be abused and turned into aggression. I in no way said this breed would be go great thrown in a family with other dogs without being acclimated or am I saying that all the dogs they meet it's going to go smooth sailing. I am just saying that I haven't seen a breed yet with proper socialization ( which I have made this several times my MAIN factor in the equation) to just instinctively pick a fight. I think I mentioned in my first posts how all dogs in certain categories require certain things from their owners to ensure better quality of the dog's natural personality. A pit bull owner needs to be aware of all his traits and train accordingly I just don't like tossing the word aggressive around with the breed because I feel it is tossed enough. I don't think its intended purpose of the breed should be something we push for or accept as a behavior and I think with training that is useable for almost all breeds has proven to work with this breed as well.



> Has there been any movies where the dobie wasn't the villian?


What i find funny about all the dogs they use in movies as the "bad guys" i think its because they are easily trained lol. germand shepheards , rotties, dobies, st bernards, all very smart dogs that work well under pressure. Unfortuattly people get caught up in the plot of the evil dog and forget this was a perfectly wonderful dog that worked well with all the actors and children in the movie. Like I said people believe in what they are told to believe.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have worked with a HUGE amount of Pit Bulls in rescue. The truth is that Yes, there is an instinct to fight with other dogs. Now, does that mean that every single one of them has it? No. Does it mean that a dog that is normally nice with NEVER become aggressive with other dogs? No. Each breed of dog is bred for a reason. The original purpose to Pit Bulls was as a blood sport dog. They were not bred to be human aggressive at any point. I think that people who chose to own a Pit Bull need to be responsible and that will mean not assuming their dog is friendly with other dogs. 

When Spicy or Zim show up, they will probably post further on this. Owning a dog is a responsibility but owning a Pit Bull, Rottweiler, Doberman, GSD or any of the other "dangerous breeds" (that term annoys me by the way) is even more of a responsibility. We responsible owners of those breeds do not have the luxury of being lax at any point. 

Ex. the other night at the kennel club I was standing along the wall with my Rottie in a down. Next to me was a gal with her Doberman and another gal with her Chow. All 3 of these breeds are considered "dangerous dogs" All 3 of these dogs were laying, well behaved not causing any issue and only a few feet apart. Another 5-7 feet away was a Lab and a few feet from that a petit basset griffon vendeen and another Lab. So, 3 "friendly dogs" the 3 friendly dogs were very aggressive, snapping at other dogs that passed, growling and 1 of them even snapped at their owners. If one of them snapped at one of our dogs, our dogs would have likely defended themselves. Who would have been blamed? Now days, a Lab or some of the lesser known breeds has the luxury of making a mistake, a Pit Bull or any those other "dangerous" breeds, do not. There is still discrimination in this world.

It is unfair but it is. I know that there are people out there that don't think this is true but people who own these breeds understand it to be true.

Anyway, if I had a Pit Bull, I would assume he/she has the potential to be dog aggressive and treat him or her as such. In other words, I wouldn't take said dog to the dog park I would make sure he/she was under my control out in public. Leashed and trained and socialized, but that is me.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

THE_biggest_canine_lover said:


> I was watching a show earlier and this lady didn't want adopt this dog because there was a possibility he had some pit bull in him. I don't know what you guys think or what is true but I personally believe that its how the dog is raised which will make up its personality. Sure there breed may give the dog a few instinctual habits, but as long as you get the dog socializing at a young age with small kids and other dogs, wouldn't it be ok? How much more dangerous is a pit bull then a german shepherd, isn't the german shepherd alot stronger, which should make it potentially more dangerous.


I remember the episode.. Bondi Vet right? I remember thinking at the time how silly the woman was (the puppy turned out to be a whippet x staffordshire bull terrier after a DNA test), but what really bugged me was that the VET didn't bother correcting her. But then, he has a lot of weird ideas, I usually don't watch it anymore. Like when the two dogs who lived together got in a fight and one was seriously injured, and the vet said it's because the other one thinks he's dominant and sees the other dog (the victim) as competition. His solution - neuter the victim so he's no longer a threat to the dominant dog.

And recently he did a special show where he was supposed to deal with normal puppy problems, I think the show was called "Your first puppy" or something like that. I didn't watch it, but people told me how bad it was, the families on the show got their puppies from pet stores and backyard breeders, the vet didn't say anything, and he recommended using an airhorn as a deterrent for bad behaviour.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Actually, pit bulls DO have an "instinctual habit to fight". It's what they were originally bred for, and it does nothing good for the breed to dismiss their natural inclinations.


this is mostly correct. Pit Bulls do have a slightly higher tendancy towards dog aggression..but it's not exactly an instinctual habit to fight.

It's more predatory drive gone a bit wacky in the most obvious cases like Bolo. But the type of aggression Bolo has is like 1 in a million and can be fairly easily managed with consistency and vigilance. 

other cases will be less obvious but in some ways more extreme, resulting from temperamental instability (dog aggression is sort of a non issue even with responsible pit bull breeders...but the best bred pit bulls who turn up DA, are usually easily managed and that's a key consideration when breeders are selecting dogs. the dog should not be _uncontrollably_ dog aggressive and NEVER man aggressive) where breeders are breeding slavering, unstable crazies or you get a dog that's game.

a game dog isnt aggressive by nature. they're usually pretty friendly...unless they get exposed to a conflict situation. this is something to keep in mind. a game dog wont necessarily START the fight...they dont go looking for battles..but once a fight gets brought to them, it's on and it's not gonna stop until the opponent is soundly and thoroughly whooped. This is actually a really awesome trait in other contexts. A game pit bull is relentless in her pursuits. Take a game pit and train it to be a SAR dog and you'll get a FANTASTIC SAR dog. but put that same dog in a dog to dog conflict..they wont give up. And once exposed, they may develop DA.

Inga is correct. Pits are not dog park dogs generally speaking. they're not for everyone. but that doesnt mean they should be banned or persecuted. 

as for why they're so persecuted..

People fear and hate what they dont understand. For a lot of people it's very difficult to wrap their brains around the idea that just because a dog is one kind of aggressive, doesnt mean it is aggressive across the board. it's also difficult for people to concieve of the idea that not all dogs want to be happy super friendly buddies with EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. it runs counter to the stereotype of what a dog is "supposed to be". and because people have these preconcieved notions about what dogs are supposed to be like..they get a dog like a pit bull..and make huge errors out of either blind ignorance or just plain ol stupidity and that often results in bad things happening. which in turn reinforces the idea that for some reason..a pit bull is an abnormal dog and should be feared.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Because of the large number of Pits out there in Shelters, I investigated the idea of fostering a Pit and due to the DA part of the breed decided not to. Could I manage it? You betcha... but I do not WANT to manage it. So.. I dropped the idea. 

A LARGE part of the Pit Bull discrimination has to do with the perception of who owns the dogs. A lot of regular people own Pits but when you go to the drug dealin' end of Town, the majority of dogs owned there are Pit Bulls. The landlords and insurance agents and banks are prohibited from Redlining an area of town as a place where they will not do business due to anti discrimination laws.... but they can get around it by not insuring, renting or lending to anyone who has a Pit Bull. When I used to watch Animal Cops Detroit.. the majority of dog cases involved Pit Bulls and in that place they Euthanize any Pit who comes into the shelter. Are all these dogs BAD? No.. but the people who own them are deemed "bad." 

Do I agree with the above paragraph? NO I DO NOT. You asked and that is what I have both seen and heard. 

Meanwhile I have GSD's and that has caused me some issues too.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> People fear and hate what they dont understand. For a lot of people it's very difficult to wrap their brains around the idea that just because a dog is one kind of aggressive, doesnt mean it is aggressive across the board. it's also difficult for people to concieve of the idea that not all dogs want to be happy super friendly buddies with EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. it runs counter to the stereotype of what a dog is "supposed to be". and because people have these preconcieved notions about what dogs are supposed to be like..they get a dog like a pit bull..and make huge errors out of either blind ignorance or just plain ol stupidity and that often results in bad things happening. which in turn reinforces the idea that for some reason..a pit bull is an abnormal dog and should be feared.


Willowy said that there are trends in which breed is persecuted and eventually the media and the public will choose another breed to pick on. Unfortunately, this paragraph makes me think differently. I'm absolutely not saying that the pit bull's reputation is deserved, but breaking it is going to be a gargantuan task.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

They are discriminated against because they are, unfortunately, an easy target. Most people don't know jack about dog behavior, especially terriers. So, it's easy for the ignorant to discriminate against them. Which is a shame because terriers like the Pit have such a rich history of service to us. Rarely is that illustrated now, no thanks to the media.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Willowy said that there are trends in which breed is persecuted and eventually the media and the public will choose another breed to pick on. Unfortunately, this paragraph makes me think differently. I'm absolutely not saying that the pit bull's reputation is deserved, but breaking it is going to be a gargantuan task.


there are trends in which breeds are persecuted. Unfortunately for the APBT, their past is rather..infamously recent. People dont think like..Mastiffs were fighting dogs at one point in their history..because that goes back to like ancient Rome. Pit Bulls on the other hand have been stigmatized by their rather recent past. it made them an easy target for the trend to settle on. 

and yes, breaking that stigma is going to take a massive effort that goes far beyond just pit bull people. or even dog people. because the non dog people are the ones that need to be convinced the most and they are also going to be the hardest to convince.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

amavanna said:


> Pit Bulls do not have an instinctual habit to attack people they don't have instinctual habit to fight. They are actually instinctual loving dogs that are great with kids fantastic working dogs and wonderful companions. There is no difference in their trainable then any other dog in his stature and they are extremely smart. They can be willful with people they can "run over" but this comes with any "bully" breed. I think you will find that if anyone takes the time to do any kind of reasonable research on the breed and actually interact one with that has been trained by someone with a half a brain that they are as great as any other dog.


True the majority don't have an instinct to attack people. Most culled man biters and due to other factors a stable, human friendly temperament endured and flourished. Medical attention needed to be given for one. Dogs would go to other people to be put through keep at times. Of course they didn't receive much socialization but still needed to be safe around family and may be sold to others later in life. There was no use for a HA dog, it wasn't needed since their "job" was fighting. So we ended up with a breed that is generally great around humans. Though we must remember some HA dogs were bred and we are also living in a different time with many ignorant breeders. HA can be a problem, one should always consider the source before they get an APBT. HA is a huge liability in this breed and very damaging to their image. 

Pit Bulls do have an instinct to fight. Fight drive, the will and desire to fight was one of the traits bred into them. Not every APBT has it, not every one will be DA. One important factor to remember is that even if they are not DA they may still retain their fighting ability. This is why it is important to never leave them alone with other dogs. Also to be aware of the fact, as you obviously can't be prepared for something you don't know about or are in denial about. Which ends up bad for the dogs involved and isn't fair to them. 

In general I've never found them to be willful, and I've willful breeds and worked with willful dogs. I've found them to be easy dog to train in general. Some are more bidable than others, however the main issue I see is lesser intelligence and focus in some compared to those who get it right off that leads to needing more repetitions rather than the dog is stubborn. I've had to change and adapt new training style for other breeds, time and patience! They don't just learn it and do it like Pits.

Actually anyone that takes the time to research will come across the DA tendencies and fighting side of the breed.



amavanna said:


> While the purpose of breeding may have been for a stronger more powerful dog to fight each each other I still don't believe that instinctively it wants to fight. I think it has been shown by too many people that trained young and provided proper socialization that it can be friendly to any animal . I believe the media has done so good at it's job and people have used the dog for its purpose for so long people just truly believe that this dog is a naturally aggressive or can be an aggressive dog or the way some people make it sound WANT to be an aggressive . I just don't buy into that. I think any breed not socialized and not handled correctly CAN become aggressive to animals and dogs a like. I mean this is just my opinion you don't have to take it for face value .


That was never the purpose. They have been bred to fight for likely close to 200yrs. You don't erase the traits they were bred for in a few generations. Desire to fight hasn't been lost. Breeding for a more powerful dog wasn't the goal gameness was the goal along with other traits that a specific breeder sought or traits that would be beneficial in a match.

There are plenty of powerful breeds, but they are not bred and used for fighting because they do not have the desire to fight nor the other traits of the APBT. Now there are some that do take an DA individual of that breed and try it, but they are ignorant to pit dogs. It is why a Rott who is powerful and larger will lose to a pit, why an aggressive acting Dobie will be done in short order, why a GSD will be mauled and killed. They do not have the same will and desire, nor ability.

The dog wants to fight or they wouldn't do it. That is the point of selective breeding. Dogs that quit would be culled and dogs that were game would be bred. In order to prove gameness a dog must have a will to fight. A cold dog might be bred by some, which is a dog that doesn't want to and wont fight, but he or she can't be known as game or cur so not all dogmen would breed such a dog. 

Traits are bred into dog breeds. A dogs environment and genetics makes a dog what it is. You have the dogs personality and temperament and what the owner chooses to do with it. A dog is a reflection f their pedigree, bloodline and breed. You can have dogs of different breeds with different traits but bloodlines tend to produce predictable traits and then the exact pedigree factors in.

Bloodhounds are bred to trail, they trail because they want to. Just like a Pit fights because they want to. They same way the hound needs no encouragement and will trail itself to exhaustion, over heating or even death if on his own or with a careless handler. Is no different than an APBT who fights until collapse, exhaustion or death because of a careless handler or a pet owner who "didnt know better" their sweetums would never fight.

A dog doesn't fight for 1 or 2 hours because they are badly socialized. They want to. Puppies don't kill eachother because they were trained to, they are much to young. They don't fight like adults because they haven't been socialized again, much too young as a matter of fact most people say they need to be WITH their littermates as part of learning social behavior. Pups don't have to be separated, managed and worked with because of a bad owner, its the opposite, they wouldn't need such intervention and training if it wasn't their nature.

Media has no influence on my opinion. It's experience and basic facts of canine genetics and breeding. 

An APBT get excited wags their tail whine, ect because they want to fight. It isn't about fear nor other factors. They don't display DA like other breeds. They want to fight, not give off a threat display. They don't growl and make noise when fighting and knash teeth. They simply grab a hold. They give some indications (which are similar to a prey driven dog wanting a bunny or a Malinois wanting a man) others do not and simply go for it. Those which do show signs clearly WANT TO FIGHT, with a high desire. They are compelled to do it, want it and distressed if they can't. Is it the dogs fault? Is it fair to have created such a breed? Nope. But it was done. Leaving an unnatural dog. A dog that lacks self preservation.

Considering everything shown to be genetic within them I don't see how it can be denied. 
Certain bloodlines tend to turn on early, others are late starters maybe nearing 3yrs old. The DA isn't only genetic but the age at which it is displayed. Some lines throw more hot dogs (showing the DA is genetic, as well as the level displayed), while some seem to produce calmer dogs. Some are great wtestlers, others have no ability at all. Some have hard mouth, [email protected] soft nought. Some are chest dogs, others like the stifle while some lines produce head dogs.

These dogs can be managed, controlled, trained, co exist with other dogs even, but you wouldn't have to put in the work if they didn't have the traits. It goes for any breed. You work with or against nature when you train and use behavior modification. When training a dog not to do something you need a reward of higher value, but in some cases that is easier said than done.

Considering aggression is hereditary in dogs in other animals it is senseless and illogical to think that APBT are exempt.




amavanna said:


> My matter of opinion is not towards weather or not they are naturally go lucky friendly with other dogs but that their is this image about them just being instinctively aggressive in general which I don't think is true at all. I don't believe any dog is just going around naturally wanting "fight" something. They may be more guarded or less inclined to flight and more enticed to fight when they are nervous or apprehensive of a new dog but I think that is different then aggression. it is a strong willed dog and very fearless. I feel traits like these can be abused and turned into aggression. I in no way said this breed would be go great thrown in a family with other dogs without being acclimated or am I saying that all the dogs they meet it's going to go smooth sailing. I am just saying that I haven't seen a breed yet with proper socialization ( which I have made this several times my MAIN factor in the equation) to just instinctively pick a fight. I think I mentioned in my first posts how all dogs in certain categories require certain things from their owners to ensure better quality of the dog's natural personality. A pit bull owner needs to be aware of all his traits and train accordingly I just don't like tossing the word aggressive around with the breed because I feel it is tossed enough. I don't think its intended purpose of the breed should be something we push for or accept as a behavior and I think with training that is useable for almost all breeds has proven to work with this breed as well.


It's not that they want to fight something, its another dog they want. If they see, smell or hear one. It's a desire to make contact and engage. For some they also have a high prey drive and want a small animal.

They don't fight because they are apprehensive or nervous. Hardly. Fear aggression is easy to peg. Many won't fight and those that will pick fight over flight when their threat display doesn't work won't fight for a long length of time because unlike the APBT they don't want to fight.

If you haven't seen it then you haven't had enough experience with the APBT. Socialization or lack there of isn't a factor. It also isn't a matter of picking fights. It's grabbing another dog, working a hold, shaking and not letting go except to get a different better hold or try to pick the other dog out of a certain area. 

Plenty are properly handled and socialized. Pits are not somehow immune to genetic aggression. Including unfortunately HA within some.

Exactly they need to be aware. These traits are highly important to be aware of. It's a little more serious than a hound that bays in the backyard.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Because people like neat, tidy answers to complicated issues. Especially if they can scapegoat a bad guy. That's why.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> True the majority don't have an instinct to attack people. Most culled man biters and due to other factors a stable, human friendly temperament endured and flourished. Medical attention needed to be given for one. Dogs would go to other people to be put through keep at times. Of course they didn't receive much socialization but still needed to be safe around family and may be sold to others later in life. There was no use for a HA dog, it wasn't needed since their "job" was fighting. So we ended up with a breed that is generally great around humans. Though we must remember some HA dogs were bred and we are also living in a different time with many ignorant breeders. HA can be a problem, one should always consider the source before they get an APBT. HA is a huge liability in this breed and very damaging to their image.
> 
> Pit Bulls do have an instinct to fight. Fight drive, the will and desire to fight was one of the traits bred into them. Not every APBT has it, not every one will be DA. One important factor to remember is that even if they are not DA they may still retain their fighting ability. This is why it is important to never leave them alone with other dogs. Also to be aware of the fact, as you obviously can't be prepared for something you don't know about or are in denial about. Which ends up bad for the dogs involved and isn't fair to them.
> 
> ...


this is what i was trying to say basically. but you're better at it than me Spicy.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

As far as I know ALL dogs can be socialized as pups to avoid any problems with Dog aggression. However, I did learn a 'neat' fact about Pits. Pits are tough, pain resistant dogs. They don't 'like' to fight any more than other dogs ... however, they can get over-excited quickly and draw blood without adequate Bite Inhibition. Other dogs, such as Labs, can do the same, but they tend to be very mouthy as pups and get Bite Inhibition training... even inadvertently. A Pit Bull pup may not bite as hard, as a pup, so may not get the needed training... This is a modified explanation that Ian Dunbar gave me for the following observation at a dog park.

My 10 yo Lab was playing with a 1 yo Pit Bull. The Pit was too energetic, so my Lab went away. Later, a gentle Rott was playing with the Pit, and they had a great tussle. Then we heard a shreik, and saw the Pit hanging on the cheek of the Rott with the Rott screaming. After we separated them, the Pitt owner left the park, while the Pitt owner ministered to the bleeding wounds. The thing that I did understand is that as soon as we separated them, the Rott did not shrink away, instead trying to get back to the Pit to continue playing !

Experienced puppy owners recognize that behavior as a puppy that looks like he's being bullied, but instead is playing roughly, very happily. My interpretation of Dunbar's explanation is that the Rott was having a great time, and a little bloodshed was just part of the game... However, not all dogs like it, and I imagine that a Pit can go too far... without being aggressive, even though the result may be just as catastrophic.

BTW - See: The Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs for more about Pit bulls and fighting.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

hanksimon said:


> As far as I know ALL dogs can be socialized as pups to avoid any problems with Dog aggression. However, I did learn a 'neat' fact about Pits. Pits are tough, pain resistant dogs. They don't 'like' to fight any more than other dogs


incorrect. some DO like to fight. i own one of them. 



> however, they can get over-excited quickly and draw blood without adequate Bite Inhibition.


she has SPECTACULAR bite inhibition. she can grab my arm and shake it and drag me when we wrestle and not leave so much as bruise. Dogs are a different story.



> Other dogs, such as Labs, can do the same, but they tend to be very mouthy as pups and get Bite Inhibition training... even inadvertently. A Pit Bull pup may not bite as hard, as a pup, so may not get the needed training... This is a modified explanation that Ian Dunbar gave me for the following observation at a dog park.
> 
> My 10 yo Lab was playing with a 1 yo Pit Bull. The Pit was too energetic, so my Lab went away. Later, a gentle Rott was playing with the Pit, and they had a great tussle. Then we heard a shreik, and saw the Pit hanging on the cheek of the Rott with the Rott screaming. After we separated them, the Pitt owner left the park, while the Pitt owner ministered to the bleeding wounds. The thing that I did understand is that as soon as we separated them, the Rott did not shrink away, instead trying to get back to the Pit to continue playing !
> 
> Experienced puppy owners recognize that behavior as a puppy that looks like he's being bullied, but instead is playing roughly, very happily. My interpretation of Dunbar's explanation is that the Rott was having a great time, and a little bloodshed was just part of the game... However, not all dogs like it, and I imagine that a Pit can go too far... without being aggressive, even though the result may be just as catastrophic.


pit bull puppies dont bite hard? that's hysterically funny. the rest is to some degree correct..for many pits..BUT not ALL.



> BTW - See: The Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs for more about Pit bulls and fighting.


i wouldnt recommend such biased garbage for "The Real Story" about pits.


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## kosmeds (Mar 21, 2010)

I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption. 

I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


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## cruiser73 (Jan 27, 2011)

Wow! So many +ve and -ve thoughts about the breed! PBTs and all their cousins (APBTs, Amstaffs, SBTs, Bts, etc.) are banned here in Singapore. Only get to watch them on TV. Always wanted to work with this breed, but I'd probably would never get to:-((


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


to be honest your attitude is absolutely disgusting. 

Id rather get kicked in the head than have to pick a retriever over a pit bull. 

and if you're going to start talking statistics, you need to back them up. they may dominate the rosters where YOU are but here...LAB MIXES. the distribution of breeds in shelters is regional. 

and as for the kind of laws you mention, they repeatedly FAIL and do nothing but cause grief and harm.


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## warmweenies (Feb 5, 2011)

I am respectfully cautious around all strange dogs especially those bred for fighting. This is because I see that many (I want to say most) dog owners don't have a clue how to raise/train them, or don't particularly care. A neighbor's Pit escaped from the garage he was kept in (starving as I could see) and the police had to be called. Eventually the officer had to shoot the poor animal as no one could get near him safely. That dog was in the garbage and had finally found something to eat. I'd defend it too. Let's discriminate against stupid people instead of the pups they destroy. I wish people had to be licensed to keep dogs. Maybe we could have a better handle on who is responsible enough to care for a potentially dangerous animal.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I do have to say this cracked me up:



> Herding dogs need people who are extremely active and can really entertain the dog mentally . Toy dogs need people with a good lap and depending on the breed a good yard.


Considering my toy dogs have been about 10 times more active than my herding breeds. Just saying....


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

The book "the pit bull placebo" by Karen Delisle is a fascinating read on this topic. It is available online. 

As for why people discriminate against Pit Bulls, my opinion is that people like simple answers: dog bites, dog is a pit bull, pit bulls bite, pit bulls are dangerous. Add to that the fact that most people get their information out of biased media sources who would rather highlight insignificant facts (breed) than important elements (tethered, unsocialized dog, ie) and what you get is a misinformed people who believe what they have been told for years.

Most people who hate or are scared of pit bulls have never met one, couldn't recognize one if it was humping their leg, and are convinced the "information" they know is fact. Most people have never spent a second researching the breed or trying to inform themsleves.

Around here, the good old myths about pit bulls are still propagated as gospel:

pit bulls have locking jaws
pit bulls have the most powerful bite of all dogs, comparable to a great white shark 
pit bulls can turn on their owner without warning
pit bulls are intolerant of children
pit bulls don't feel pain at all, which is why they cannot be pried off their victim once they bite
etc, etc, etc.

it is very hard to argue with someone who has been raised with these myths from infancy and believes them to be the doG given truth. Heck, even a guy I had talked to for 30 minutes, who had been petting a pit bull the whole time, ended the conversation with "well, this one is a nice dog and all you told me makes sense, but I still would never trust a pit bull around my family".


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## Horseshoe (Nov 10, 2010)

Unfortunately some PB's are bred to be dog aggressive today not all are but there are plenty. Media gives them a bad rap and stupid owners and breeders give them a bad start and then the bad rap. My sisters dog was attacked by a DA pitbull, her's was on a leash the other dog wasn't, her dog was taken to the ER for stitches.

I went to shoeing school with the nimwit that bred pitbulls for aggressiveness...if any of the pups in the liter weren't aggressive it was electrocuted to death, nice huh? So he is one of hundreds of people breeding for aggressive temperaments...not cool. 

I love the bully breeds, my other sister has 2 pit bulls and my niece has 1 pit and 1 ATS. Even if the pups were bred for aggression it would need a good responsible owner to help train appropriately and to really socialized this dog but unfortunately these will get into bad hands and its a horrible recipe and the dog is the one who suffers and give the bred a bad name. 

This is how I feel they get a bad rap.


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


I'm not attracted to any of the retrieving breeds. Or sporting dogs in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the dirty hunting contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in rivers and parks, and I'm not even going to go into the tennis ball shortage. It's pandemic.

I think most people are better off with toy types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be increased unenforceable regulation of dog ownership and breeding based entirely on my own ignorance and prejudice. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs. And if we start now we might still be able to positively impact the dramatically depleted tennis ball population.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

It is unfortunate that they are discriminated against. They are wonderful dogs..aren't they the breed that use to be called "nanny dogs" because of how good they were with children? I believe Petie from the Little Rascals was a pitbull.

Anyway , one contributing factor that I did not see mentioned here , was the fact that once a breed gets this reputation , they become..pardon the expression , A-hole magnets. Back when German Shepherds , Rotties , Dobes were the bad dog de jour ,that is what was on the other end of the leash when you saw a drug dealer , thug , or generally misguided young male that wanted to look bad ass with his dog . Given the fact that bad owners make bad dogs it does not surprise me that PBs are the ones that end up in the spotlight.

For every good PB owner , there are probably 2 or 3 bad owners who picked the breed BECAUSE of the hype.

This contributes to the vicious cycle of a wonderful breed being victimized by bad press and bad owners.

I did not see that show , but reasons why that woman might not have wanted a dog with pit in it? Could have been misinformation that made her fear them..but it could also be for more practical reasons , such as the fear of being attached to a dog that gets ripped away from you due to BSL..it could be not wanting to be judged for choosing the breed , it could also be because her home owners insurance precludes her from having a pit bull. Mine does. I looked into a home owners insurance that does not ban pits ( out of principle )..they were double or triple the cost of my rate.

This is why it is imperative that the breed is rescued from not just bad owners and dog fighting rings ,but BSLs , insurance discrimination , and unfair media coverage.

It is easy to say well , just start with a sweep of dog fighting rings , because the activity is illegal. But how do you save them from bad owners who do not necessarily fight them? Start by taking away the media hype.

But heck , if media hype was easy to control we would not have spent 48 hours watching every blessed network blame a stupid political poster for a deranged man's shooting spree.

I swear the media is the true antichrist.....


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

hanksimon said:


> As far as I know ALL dogs can be socialized as pups to avoid any problems with Dog aggression.


Hardly. Genetics plays a role in a dogs personality, temperament, ect. Socialization is a factor, but the dog still has their innate temperament. You can't socialize a specific trait out of a dog. You can control that dog with training and behavior modification. 

You also can't fix all temperament problems through socialization, whether that is human or dog aggression. 

There are plenty of unsocialized Pits which are friendly, non aggressive dogs. I've had plenty of rescued like this, which were Pits. 

Many dogs are socialized properly from an early age and become aggressive, have aggression issues or show aggressive tendencies or aggression in certain situations. Aggression is a term used for a broad number of behaviors.

Socializing a dog as a puppy doesn't mean they won't become dog aggressive. 



> However, I did learn a 'neat' fact about Pits. Pits are tough, pain resistant dogs. They don't 'like' to fight any more than other dogs ...


That isn't a FACT about Pits. 
Yes they are a very "tough" breed I suppose. 
Yes they have a high pain tolerance and are very determined, driven, game. 
Wrong. Some like to fight, some do not. And they certainly can't be compared to any other breed, or most others. 

A dog doesn't do something and isn't extremely determined to do something he/she doesn't want to do/doesn't like/doesn't enjoy. A dog doesn't do something for a long period of time if he/she dislikes it. Show me a Lab, GSD or even Tosa Inu which fights for 1hr or more. A Pit that doesn't want to fight won't, a Pit that doesn't like it will show signs that they don't. Dogs which don't really enjoy to fight will submit, stop, end a fight no matter what breed but it won't be a lengthy fight. 



> however, they can get over-excited quickly and draw blood without adequate Bite Inhibition. Other dogs, such as Labs, can do the same, but they tend to be very mouthy as pups and get Bite Inhibition training... even inadvertently. A Pit Bull pup may not bite as hard, as a pup, so may not get the needed training...


Lots of dogs can draw a little blood in rough play. Which is very different from a fight or attack. CLEARLY DIFFERENT. That is ridiculous, Pit Bull pups can and do learn bite inhibition, but if they are aggressive it won't stop them from biter harder/fighting. It is very laughable to say Pit Bull pups don't/won't bite as hard. They bite hard enough to cause punctures, need of stitches at times unfortunately serious injure or kill each other. Um yeah I'd say that is hard enough. 

Most Pits who play with other dogs show fine bite inhibition. They softly mouth each other, NOT bite each other. And the same dog which plays with one dog but fights with another shows a clear difference in behavior and obviously the bite. If they run around with one dog, MOUTHING them without causing harm, but are locked in holds with another dog requiring them to need their leg stables shut um that is more than rough play. It was a fight, it was aggression not playfulness. 

A Pit that is playing and a Pit that is fighting is a totally different scene. I can't imagine how anyone could mistake the two. 



> This is a modified explanation that Ian Dunbar gave me for the following observation at a dog park.
> 
> My 10 yo Lab was playing with a 1 yo Pit Bull. The Pit was too energetic, so my Lab went away. Later, a gentle Rott was playing with the Pit, and they had a great tussle. Then we heard a shreik, and saw the Pit hanging on the cheek of the Rott with the Rott screaming. After we separated them, the Pitt owner left the park, while the Pitt owner ministered to the bleeding wounds. The thing that I did understand is that as soon as we separated them, the Rott did not shrink away, instead trying to get back to the Pit to continue playing !


The point being? This scenario has nothing to do with DA being spoken of in this thread. 



> Experienced puppy owners recognize that behavior as a puppy that looks like he's being bullied, but instead is playing roughly, very happily. My interpretation of Dunbar's explanation is that the Rott was having a great time, and a little bloodshed was just part of the game... However, not all dogs like it, and I imagine that a Pit can go too far... without being aggressive, even though the result may be just as catastrophic.


Yes and experienced dog owners or those who are not blind understand and see the difference between playing, even roughly or over excitedly causing a little blood and scrapes and an actual fight. 

They should also be able to recognize when a dog "likes" to do something or not. Whatever that activity may be.

The result of rough play is not catastrophic. The only way I could see is if the dog was a lot smaller/fragile. Otherwise that is a ludicrous statement. Dogs do not need medical attention because of rough play. Catastrophic events like bad injury and death don't occur because of rough or over excited play. 



> BTW - See: The Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs for more about Pit bulls and fighting.


I've experience and information from reliable sources. Much more than one can learn about Pit Bulls and dog fighting from reading a book. 

But you are probably right, it is just rough play being misinterpreted and sometimes casualties occur when dogs are playing. As tragic as it is, these dogs are just eager and excited to play. Punctures, gashes, broken bones are just part of it. No dogs exist that like to fight, want to chase squirrels or like to kill rabbits. Socialization makes all dogs nice to everything and everyone around them. They won't have these behaviors and they certainly don't enjoy them.



kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


I'm not attracted to ANY of the Ret type breeds. Terriers and bully breeds have a different temperament than they do. Not all breeds fit all people. I like terriers, bullies, mastiffs, most any molosser.



warmweenies said:


> *I am respectfully cautious around all strange dogs especially those bred for fighting.* This is because I see that many (I want to say most) dog owners don't have a clue how to raise/train them, or don't particularly care. A neighbor's Pit escaped from the garage he was kept in (starving as I could see) and the police had to be called. Eventually the officer had to shoot the poor animal as no one could get near him safely. That dog was in the garbage and had finally found something to eat. I'd defend it too. Let's discriminate against stupid people instead of the pups they destroy. I wish people had to be licensed to keep dogs. Maybe we could have a better handle on who is responsible enough to care for a potentially dangerous animal.


This is part of the reason Pits face so much negativity and discrimination. They are very misunderstood. Most dogs bred for fighting are very friendly and stable dogs. Some fighting dogs were HA but we are speaking in general, the vast majority. Due to many factors a stable, human friendly temperament flourished with man biters here and there.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Being an owner of a pit bull type i feel for the breed and what has happened to it,their temperament and DA traits were created by man and it was man too who made shit loads of money watching them fight each other yet now they are the devil dogs of the twentieth century. The other traits that man bred in,like unconditional loyalty,nanny dogs and overall adoration of people is no longer remembered (by people not familiar with them). I get annoyed at the constant amount of negative attention they get,i know what they were bred for and i make sure they never get to do that. Guess what its easy doing that too,no biggy at all.

I'd be more worried about mollosser type breeds that WERE bred to be wary of people,these dogs are more than double the size and capable of much more damage than a pit bull is.



Spicy1_VV said:


> Socializing a dog as a puppy doesn't mean they won't become dog aggressive.


Too true spice!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Hmmmm sh*t loads of money. Not sure about that one, maybe a few people. Not in US I wouldn't say. I mean big money dogs and purses exist, but I wouldn't call that the norm. Some don't even match dogs or rarely matched. Others wasn't for big money. FB told me he only made a couple hundred here and there. Minus the cost of up keeping dogs people like that can't be over turning a profit.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Im talking about back in the day when having a prized fighter could make you a few grand. Any way point is it used to make money,weather it was alot or not is not the point the point is they are not used to make ANY now yet their past still haunts them and the positive attributes are ignored not to mention that we as pit bull lovers DO find them the most attractive type dogs even if some think they are ugly.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok but sh*t loads sounds like a lot. I understand the point and that type of money was a lot back in that day. It seems like that while dog fighting was said to be an underground sport for the under class there is history showing that it was done by the upper class and to even get into an English dog fight could be costly. 

Here dogs are sometimes fought for big money, IN THIS DAY. It just isn't the norm. Not to mention you got to lose sometime.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


I did not see this reply as I scanned this thread. While it is true it is the "junky contingent" is responsible for a lot of incidents with PBs , there are also the problems group with weapons that other people have true purpose for such as boxcutters, using Nyquil to make meth , and using spray paint for graffiti . 

We can either speak up and demand our tax dollars go more towards controlling the "junky contingent ", or we can , as good citizens , be denied the right to have boxcutters to install rugs , nyquill to treat a cold , spray paint to brighten up a fence , or pit bulls as wonderful companions.

Talk about giving in. Afraid the wrong person will get it? Just make it illegal for everyone..I don't want that , not in my country.


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## Rinchan (Jan 4, 2011)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


I don't think these people would have been better off with a retriever type 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M16cKwrkjGM

Pit lovers and dog lovers with a soft spot for bully breeds will love the video.


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## BrittanieJo (Sep 23, 2010)

I just wanted to say that I've enjoyed reading all the responses. We have a lab mix who is likely mixed with a pit ( in our shelters here that is the number one dog, lab mix ). I'm perfectly okay with that because I know she will be a wonderful dog around humans and if she becomes dog aggressive (because I DO agree pits can be more DA than other dogs) no big deal, our last lab was dog aggressive and she lived a perfectly happy life. For now, Aggie loves other dogs (minus two particular dogs at the dog park and we simply leave when they get there because their owners are twits and have made their dogs into neurotic idiots and I don't feel like constantly having to keep Aggie away from these two dogs because she "plays too rough", mind you NO one else thinks this everyone else thinks she's wonderful) so we go to the dog park every day/close to every day because she likes it and because it is important to TRY to interact with other dogs till it's irresponsible to do so. At least that's how I've always thought(please correct me if I'm wrong). We took our lab around other dogs, but then she got old and decided she wanted to eat the other dogs so we just avoided them. No big deal. For now, I keep a close eye on Aggie (and all the other dogs, not just pits, who come to the dog park) at the dog park so that I minimize any issues at the start of it. So far so good but we are perfectly okay with her being a one dog house if we need to. Will save us money in the long run lol.

For the OP: I think pits are discriminated against because when they are in the news it's rarely for something good, just like rotties, and dobes (I think GSDs get some good coverage for police work lol). I also agree with the irresponsible owners leading to a lot of problems with the breed. Just my opinion of course.


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## warmweenies (Feb 5, 2011)

Okay, here goes...(whew, I know I'm in for it now!) Gotta put my thick skin on. 
1. Hunting dogs like to hunt
2. Badger dogs like to dig and to squeeze into tight places
3. Herding dogs like to herd
4. Lap dogs like to sit on laps
5. Guard dogs (like Chow Chows) like to guard
6. Sight hounds like to run
7. Scent hounds like to trail
8. Water dogs like to swim
9. Fighting dogs like to fight
You can train a dog as much as you want, but they are still what they are and you should always remember that.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

kosmeds said:


> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


Really? What about 'retriever types' makes them so perfect for people?

So not Bichons or Papillons or Pugs or Newfoundlands or Beagles or Poodles or Spaniels? Just 'retriever types'? 

And this is based on...what? 

What proof would be needed to definitively prove someone is worthy of owning or breeding a dog? And what makes you think irresponsible people are going to go through legal channels? It's like gun laws - good people jump through hoops yet the criminals still have their guns.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Really? What about 'retriever types' makes them so perfect for people?
> 
> So not Bichons or Papillons or Pugs or Newfoundlands or Beagles or Poodles or Spaniels? Just 'retriever types'?
> 
> ...


I was once told the same thing at a dog friendly BBQ. Obnoxious chick asked me why I didn't just want a golden retriever. Why would I ever want another breed?

...


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## loveourbullies (Jun 29, 2011)

I don't know what people's problem with pitties is. We have a mix (double whammy-his other half is American Bulldog) and he's an ANGEL. He sits on laps-all 80+ pounds of him-and licks faces and smiles. But people fear our Edgar, which is rather odd because it's the American Bulldog, Sancho, that'll rip off someone's face. But ah, well...if they think Edgar's dangerous, they won't pop by unexpectedly.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

Well, everyone has their prejudices and it really isn't possible to educate a person if they don't want to learn. So dog owners will always have to deal with 'pure-bred' snobs that don't like mutts, large dog owners that don't like toy dogs, people that hate poodles just because of the silly haircuts they're given, etc...


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## Polywoggy (Mar 7, 2011)

I am not going to get into the Pitbull debate. I honestly have not spent much time with them. They are a restricted breed in Ontario, and unfortunately, in the city I live in, they are the breed of choice for angry young men. For me to spend any time with a powerful breed, I have to trust its person/handler. All I really know is what I have read in venues such as this.

One thing that I do notice though, is that every time this topic does get discussed, retrievers end up being vilified. I am certainly not going to say that there has never been a poorly behaved retriever. People get them as the "perfect family dog" and think that it is just supposed to happen- no training, no exercise, no socialization required. That can be said of any breed/mix of dog. 

By all means defend and educate others about the breed you enjoy and have worked with- just don't throw another specific type of dog under the tires to do it. That is discrimination too.


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## Brittany Barrix (Jun 24, 2011)

The media along with dog fighters and bad owners have portrayed Pit Bulls to be violent when they aren't. An example would be the neighbor on the other side of the fence in our backyard. He owns a Pit Bull that jumps on our fence and shakes it like an earthquake, but I don't blame the dog because he doesn't understand that he shouldn't be acting in that mannor. Instead I blame the owner because it's his fault for not taking the time to educate himself on the breed and how to properly train it. We brought the fence issue to his attention and instead of doing further research on the behavior he bought a shock collar and shocks the poor thing every single time he jumps on the fence. It's times like these where I wish I would've kept my mouth shut about the fence, but I didn't know that he was going to send electric bolts through the poor dog's neck. That's what makes a mean dog and a perfect media Pit Bull. Humans are an ignorant species. That's all it comes down to.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

I don't think people are trying to discriminate against retrievers, I think they are trying to point out that it is the individual dog, not the breed in general that can have aggression problems. I'm sure most people agree that Labs are mostly goofy happy energetic dogs! There are some aggressive Labs, just like there are some aggressive Pits. I've done a lot of Pit research, and had a fair amount of personal experience with them, including owning one. I have personally never met one that is people-aggressive. I've also never come across one that is dog aggressive, but I have read that they tend to have a fighting drive. My dog is the biggest wimp you'll ever meet. He has had multiple dogs snap at him and he either doesn't get it and keeps trying to play, or he walks away. 
Last time we went to Petsmart 2 different Labs tried to attack him (sorry previous poster! he has a lot of lab friends too!) One thing I do notice that may cause people to think Pits are dog-aggressive is that they play a lot rougher than other dogs. When my dog plays with his bulldog cousin, they bite, growl, roll around on the ground together... if you didn't know better you'd think they were fighting, but they are not and they're having a blast!!! My dog lays down to play with smaller dogs and seems to figure out the different playing styles of different dogs. 
As for people who say no dogs are genetically aggressive, I strongly disagree. My parents have a boxer who was brought up the same as their other dogs, had nothing traumatic happen to her, etc etc... when she hit maturity she started attacking other dogs... and I mean going for the throat trying to kill. She had my mom's boston terrier (who she used to cuddle with on the couch) by the neck and was shaking her drawing blood (the dog is fine). So now the boxer is kept away from all other dogs. Incidentally every female boxer I've ever met has some type of aggression towards other female dogs. They sure are sweethearts with people though! 
Pits are discriminated against because they are the dog of choice for lowlifes unfortunately. They are trained to fight, etc.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> and unfortunately, in the city I live in, they are the breed of choice for angry young men.





> Pits are discriminated against because they are the dog of choice for lowlifes unfortunately.



Yeah, this doesn't help at all. I see this all the time in my city--you drive through the 'poor' section, houses boarded up, litter all over the place, glass all over the sidewalks, and you have packs of young men swaggering around in hoodies with their pants halfway down their legs, on the other end of the chain leash--an intact pit bull. It's never a Schnauzer, Husky, Coonhound.... it's almost always a pit bull. Occasionally a Rott. To be honest, I think this is why a lot of these types of dog are discriminated against... because of the demographics of a lot of people who own them... which is sad. Not the dogs' fault.

Jen


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## Irishman (May 13, 2011)

Pit Bulls are (in general) very loving, patient dogs. They are extremely affectionate, and will put up with a lot of guff before even showing irritation. The reason they are discriminated against is media sensationalism and also general human nature. It is true that some dogs have different instincts associated with their breed, such as guarding instincts or hunting, etc. People that try to tell you that any dog can be trained to do mostly anything is telling you the truth, but oversimplifying it. With some dogs, this is much harder, because of what they are. Livestock guardian dogs are highly intelligent and usually very affectionate with their family, but they're not obedience stars. This is because their various breeds were bred to think independently, to protect their flock without a human telling them to. 

OK, so that's the 'difference' as I know it, but why are Pits so feared? Simple. Because they bite *really *hard. Any dog that is abused or improperly socialized is likely to be aggressive and bite. I've known humans prone to this as well. However, when grandma's Chihuahua freaks out and bites someone, you're probably looking at a few stitches, worst case. When a Pit does it, they can tear your arm off. So, they get lots of media coverage whenever an attack occurs. Any of the stronger breeds of dog, particularly those with a very strong bite, are going to do major damage if they flip out. Just think of jail movies. Jails are full of humans that didn't receive the care they should have received, but the really strong, mean, or cunning ones always do more damage. 

A GSD isn't a lot (or any) stronger than a Pit. Pit Bulls are often entered into pulling competitions. I've seen a Pit pull more than 7 tons. And their bite is massively strong, due to their muscular build and a skull that's huge relative to their medium body size.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Irishman said:


> OK, so that's the 'difference' as I know it, but why are Pits so feared? Simple. Because they bite *really *hard. Any dog that is abused or improperly socialized is likely to be aggressive and bite. I've known humans prone to this as well. However, when grandma's Chihuahua freaks out and bites someone, you're probably looking at a few stitches, worst case. When a Pit does it, they can tear your arm off. So, they get lots of media coverage whenever an attack occurs. Any of the stronger breeds of dog, particularly those with a very strong bite, are going to do major damage if they flip out. Just think of jail movies. Jails are full of humans that didn't receive the care they should have received, but the really strong, mean, or cunning ones always do more damage.



This is exactly true. A LOT of small dogs are people aggressive... mainly because they don't do enough damage for their owners to take it seriously and correct the problem... and also because people carry them around all the time like little princesses (or princes lol). 
I had a friend who got a bad dog bite that required surgery (lab)... did that make the news?? Nope!! If it was a pit bull I bet it would have! 
When my dog was a tiny puppy I've had people come up and be petting him and saying how cute he is... then they ask what breed he is, I say Pit Bull, and a couple people have actually turned around and walked away without saying another word! Other people say "oh aren't they vicious!?". I think the stereotype has started to turn around though.. we shall see.


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## Dorim (Jun 10, 2011)

The answer to your question is fairly simple IMHO: While pit bulls are not THE most likely dog to bite, when they do they can cause some severe and devastating damage. THIS is what gets them the bad press. Chihuahuas probably actually bite more people but you never hear about the chihuahua attack on the news. I used to be a professional pest control technician and was in literally thousands of different homes during my career. The most memorable dog attack I have had was perpetrated by a tiny little teacup poodle. The little stinker could not reach the top of my boot but he kept coming and ripped a hole in my pants leg. The scariest dog I ever encountered was an English Bull Terrier. He scared me because he had no respect for his owner and she was terrified of him and he kept trying to chew through the garage door to get to me. Her mail had been stopped because of the dog and he was out of control. Both dogs had idiots for owners. My second scariest dog was a yellow lab that had been kept on a chain for his whole life....poor thing was crazed. My favorite dogs were a boxer named Jim and Rhodesian Ridgeback named Gus. Jim would meet me at the gate with his ball which I would throw for him...dozens of times. I always scheduled extra time for Jim. Gus met me with a doggie smile full of teeth the first time I met him and I was in love. His owners were never home when I went. I didn't meet them for 6 months until they scheduled for special service. They didn't believe that I was servicing the back yard because of Gus....I explained that Gus and I were good friends, I had to go out and prove it to them. Gus met me with his customary smile and they were amazed that I wasn't scared of his toothy grin. People can be silly sometimes.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

In short, ignorance. Pitbulls are actually very gentle, loving and devoted dogs to _humans_. Their issue is with other dogs because they were bred specifically for dog fighting. People don't understand the difference between dog aggression and human aggression and think because Pitbulls have the tendency to be aggressive towards other dogs, that they will be dangerous towards humans too. There's no more dog attacks in the U.S.A involving Pitbulls then there is any other breed, you just hear more about it because of that fact.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


Wow, just WOW! With out the Terrier and Bully (molossor) types there would be a HUGE gap in working dogs. Terriers AND BULLIES have been used to develop the majority of the Working breed dogs this INCLUDES most of the gaurdian breeds and many herding breeds as well as ratters and ground dogs. It would be a boring worlds indeed if there were only retrievers (which are HUGELY prone to retriever rage and 50 years ago Irish Setters were the #1 dogs for human bites). 

As far as govenrnment involvment in dog breeding, that's what put us where we are now, government FUNDING of Puppy Farms to try to pull us out of the Depression.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Yeah Kosmed thats pretty harsh but i guess quite true.

We can moan and discuss this until the cows come home but i very much doubt the status owners will cease owning pit bulls.

I own SBT which are very similar and here in the UK they are the dogs of status,along with pit bulls and mastiff or mixes of either. I used to get really angry when i was judged because of the breeds i owned but i dont let it bother me anymore.

In the last year (since my oldest dog reached 12) ive been taking Bless out on solo walks and meeting so many people with smaller breeds of dogs,they all fall in love with her and ive also made good friends with the owners. Shes just one dog yet she has changed so many perceptions of her breed and "shady looking owners"hahaha,Aslan goes down a storm too and even Blake (my DA pooch) has proved that not all pit bull types with DA are baby killing monsters,he is such a loving dog.

So it doesn't bother me that people don't like my breeds of choice or other similar,what gets to me a bit is here on this forum are some incredible owners of the pit bull (and similar breeds) and they have taught me so much not just about pit bulls but dog ownership in general,it bothers me that their hard work educating and helping the breeds image is basically ignored when reading threads like this and still people assume the pit bull goes hand in hand with a gangster on the street corner. really???


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Irishman said:


> And their bite is massively strong, due to their muscular build and a skull that's huge relative to their medium body size.




this is false. 100% pure bull malarkey. someone fed you a lie. 

their skulls and skull musculature show no sigificant exaggerations in morphology that would contribute to any excess force. their skulls are actually slightly smaller on average than other molossers.


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## THE_biggest_canine_lover (Dec 26, 2010)

Golden retriever attacks which is "very unusual for this family friendly pet as golden retrievers usually are"... "Such a strange and bizarre attack, from such a lovely breed of dog."

Watch the first one about the pit bulls and the last one is about the Retriever...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8262554/large-number-of-savage-dog-attacks-in-nsw

I was surprised they even reported the golden retriever on the news... I never saw it on tv, I only saw the pit bull on tv and when I went looking for it I found the retriever in the 'video library'.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


I just read this one... are you aware that the first face transplant was done on a woman whos LAB mauled her face when she was asleep??? I don't think everyone would be better off with a certain type of dog. That is ridiculous. I know several labs who I love, I know several pit bulls who I love, I know boston terriers, rotties, etc etc etc who are GREAT dogs. Growing up, my parents had a lab, boston terriers, and a boxer. I never knew any pit bulls until I started training at PetSmart and discovered that they are wonderful animals. 
Different breeds have different personalities, and I personally love Pits. Do I think every Pit is a great dog? No... just like I don't think ANY breed has all wonderful examples. My sister owns a rottie (another discriminated breed) who is the sweetest dog I have ever met (with adults, children, babies, other dogs, cats, everything), and obviously I've met a ton of different breeds as a trainer. 
Dogs are individuals just like people are individuals. My pit lays down to play with small dogs, loves kids, has been snapped at by strange dogs and has never shown an ounce of aggression.. I couldn't ask for a better dog.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Irishman said:


> OK, so that's the 'difference' as I know it, but why are Pits so feared? Simple. Because they bite *really *hard. Any dog that is abused or improperly socialized is likely to be aggressive and bite. When a Pit does it, they can tear your arm off.
> 
> A GSD isn't a lot (or any) stronger than a Pit. Pit Bulls are often entered into pulling competitions. I've seen a Pit pull more than 7 tons. And their bite is massively strong, due to their muscular build and a skull that's huge relative to their medium body size.


None of this is true you know. GSD have the strongest bite PSI over a Pit. Weight pulling is considerably different than true strength. I weigh 100 lbs and I could probably pull thousands of pounds on a cart. I've also been to weight pulls and I've seen a Malamute pull quite a substantial amount of weight.

The skull and muscular bit making their bite stronger is a bunch of malarky as well. It's one of the media's favorite things to toss out there.



katG said:


> This is exactly true. A LOT of small dogs are people aggressive...


Statistics on that? 



Dorim said:


> Chihuahuas probably actually bite more people


Do they? Statistics on that? 

This is where these threads start to annoy me. A lot of generalizations going on and generalizations are a big part of what is killing the Pit. No breeds should be thrown under the bus in effort to prove a point because now it's the Pit but when they're gone they'll move on to the next breed, then the next, then the next. 

Human aggression is pretty rare, folks. There is a big difference between a dog that bit/attacked for whatever reason or bites for whatever reason and a dog that will attack you on sight BECAUSE you're a person.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

There are no statistics on Chihuahua bites because who is going to report being bit by a 5 pound dog?!?! I speak from personal experience working at PetSmart and whether you like him or not, I think Cesar Milan even had a show on Chihuahuas because they can be such terrors. I'm not saying it is the breed or their genetics that make them this way... its the fact that people tend to carry them around and not treat them like dogs. I think it is pretty obvious that small dogs are not disciplined or trained in the same way that large dogs are. I've seen plenty of people laughing at behavior in small dogs that they would be horrified with if it was done by a large dog.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

katG said:


> There are no statistics on Chihuahua bites because who is going to report being bit by a 5 pound dog?!?!


My point exactly. You have no statistics, so you have no basis for your claims. 



> I speak from personal experience working at PetSmart and whether you like him or not, I think Cesar Milan even had a show on Chihuahuas because they can be such terrors.


Personal experience means nothing. And you worked at PetSmart you say? And Cesar Milan did a show on a handful of Chihuahuas? Well great, I worked at PetSmart too, and my experience is clearly different than yours thus proving nothing. And a sample size of Chi's on a TV show means nothing either. Weird, I'm pretty sure it's the media that has a big hand in how Pits are portrayed so the idea anyone would watch something and say "Yes, yes Chihuahuas ARE terrors." is pretty funny. 



> I'm not saying it is the breed or their genetics that make them this way... its the fact that people tend to carry them around and not treat them like dogs. I think it is pretty obvious that small dogs are not disciplined or trained in the same way that large dogs are. I've seen plenty of people laughing at behavior in small dogs that they would be horrified with if it was done by a large dog.


Again, because x amount of people did it does not make it a general rule. I know quite a few Chi owners that do no such thing and have lovely little dogs. Does my experience over rule your experience? How do we decide who has the true generalization? My point is we should not paint a breed with a single brush. My small dog is trained just the same as my large dogs.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> My point exactly. You have no statistics, so you have no basis for your claims.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay well you are clearly a responsible dog owner. I trained at Petsmart and repeatedly had to tell people to put their tiny dogs down on the floor. If you seriously think that the majority of small dogs are trained exactly like large dogs then I don't know what to tell you. All I'm saying is that people want to breed discriminate, but only about certain breeds. We can sit around and generalize all day, but as I've said several times, dogs are individuals, as are the owners who train (or not train) them. My observation on small dogs had nothing to do with the dogs, but how they are treated and trained that shapes their behavior. I think the same holds true for pit bulls... a pit bull with a responsible owner is going to be a lot different than a pit bull with an irresponsible owner. But apparently personal experience counts for nothing so I don't know why we should have opinions on anything other than numbers we are told by some publication.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Irishman, I think I've said this to you before, You have a LOT to learn about Pit Bulls, and as a Pit Bull owner, I would appreciate it if you kept your mouth shut until you learn the facts. I'm not talking about the media fact, but the REAL facts.




Irishman said:


> OK, so that's the 'difference' as I know it, but why are Pits so feared? Simple. Because they bite *really *hard. Any dog that is abused or improperly socialized is likely to be aggressive and bite. I've known humans prone to this as well. However, when grandma's Chihuahua freaks out and bites someone, you're probably looking at a few stitches, worst case. When a Pit does it, they can tear your arm off.


You do realize, that the first face-plant was for a woman who's face was tore off by a Lab right? You also realize that a German Shepherd and Rottweiler both have a stronger bite then the "Pit Bull" has. You also realize there is NO SUCH BREED AS A PIT BULL right? It's a mixture of 4 to 6 different breeds, their mixes and anything that resembles the breed. Stats are very much skewed and not in favor of these dogs.



> So, they get lots of media coverage whenever an attack occurs. Any of the stronger breeds of dog, particularly those with a very strong bite, are going to do major damage if they flip out. Just think of jail movies. Jails are full of humans that didn't receive the care they should have received, but the really strong, mean, or cunning ones always do more damage.


 Actually they do no more damage then any other large breed of dog. The media has chosen the "Pit Bull" because they are a scary looking dog to most people. They are strong, powerful looking dogs with square jaws which people seem to fear. The Media sells fear. This is how they stay in business. Don't think do? Just remember that the media had American convinced that there were Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. How did that really turn out?



> A GSD isn't a lot (or any) stronger than a Pit. Pit Bulls are often entered into pulling competitions. I've seen a Pit pull more than 7 tons. And their bite is massively strong, due to their muscular build and a skull that's huge relative to their medium body size.


Um, you realize this is incorrect. I've seen GSDs out pull MANY APBT's. 

This dog pulling over 11,000lbs is an American Bulldog









Yes, Pit Bulls are powerful dogs, but so are Chinese Crested's. One pulled over 250 times it's body weight! So are Basenji's which I've seen win over Pit Bulls with percentage weight pulled by body weight. Right now, yes the current record for most weight ever pulled is a rescued Pit Bull named Jake at over 12,000lbs. An average dog could NEVER do this, I don't care about the breed. Jake is the Number 1 pulling dog in the country, and his owner works him daily on it. He's also 8 years old. 

While yes they are strong, it has NOTHING to do with why Pits are feared. They are feared because of people like you who spread lies and sound like they know what your talking about.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

katG said:


> Okay well you are clearly a responsible dog owner. I trained at Petsmart and repeatedly had to tell people to put their tiny dogs down on the floor. If you seriously think that the majority of small dogs are trained exactly like large dogs then I don't know what to tell you. All I'm saying is that people want to breed discriminate, but only about certain breeds. We can sit around and generalize all day, but as I've said several times, dogs are individuals, as are the owners who train (or not train) them. My observation on small dogs had nothing to do with the dogs, but how they are treated and trained that shapes their behavior. I think the same holds true for pit bulls... a pit bull with a responsible owner is going to be a lot different than a pit bull with an irresponsible owner. But apparently personal experience counts for nothing so I don't know why we should have opinions on anything other than numbers we are told by some publication.


Personal experience counts for exactly what it is. Personal experience. It does not represent fact or a general truth. "Personal experiences" are skewed and greatly attributing to what gets Pits banned and killed. You get one person saying "Well, in my experience, Pits kill." and it clearly snow balls. You read statistics and take them for what they're worth. There ARE bite statistics based on bites reported to hospitals/AC. You can glean what you like from them and realize they don't cover the big picture, but it's factual where people are often not. Most people can't identify an APBT from a hole in the ground.

_We_ aren't generalizing. I'm arguing we need to stop generalizing.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Personal experience counts for exactly what it is. Personal experience. It does not represent fact or a general truth. "Personal experiences" are skewed and greatly attributing to what gets Pits banned and killed. You get one person saying "Well, in my experience, Pits kill." and it clearly snow balls. You read statistics and take them for what they're worth. There ARE bite statistics based on bites reported to hospitals/AC. You can glean what you like from them and realize they don't cover the big picture, but it's factual where people are often not. Most people can't identify an APBT from a hole in the ground.
> 
> _We_ aren't generalizing. I'm arguing we need to stop generalizing.


Is your opinion based on personal experience??? You're not generalizing you're just stating your opinion about "most people". Statistics are often not representative of reality, hence the need for people to talk and debate, using personal experience and opinion. I bet I can find a lot of statistics that make pit bulls look horrible... and I bet I can come up with an opinionated explanation for why the results are what they are.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

katG said:


> Is your opinion based on personal experience??? You're not generalizing you're just stating your opinion about "most people". Statistics are often not representative of reality, hence the need for people to talk and debate, using personal experience and opinion. I bet I can find a lot of statistics that make pit bulls look horrible... and I bet I can come up with an opinionated explanation for why the results are what they are.


I'm fairly certain at this point in the discussion you have no idea what my point is, are back and forth contradicting yourself, have no idea what generalizing means, and are irritating me. Move along.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

katG said:


> Statistics are often not representative of reality...


Any statistics on that?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

*slow clap*


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

warmweenies said:


> Okay, here goes...(whew, I know I'm in for it now!) Gotta put my thick skin on.
> 1. Hunting dogs like to hunt
> 2. Badger dogs like to dig and to squeeze into tight places
> 3. Herding dogs like to herd
> ...


Gross generalizations get you nowhere. For example .... I know a standard poodle (water dog) that hates water.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I will just stick to the original question, as I have fought the roundabout APBT battle in other places and it just gets nowhere. 

As to why they are discriminated against, various reasons. Ignorance being the biggest, Intolerance plays a small role, and just plain greed plays another big role, and of course the contagious sheepism (and yes I know it is not a word). 

The media (and yes this is a generalization) IMO are just plain ignorant about this breed. So they spew their ignorance because, as bad as this sounds, it sells. As bad as this also sounds, nobody cares about a chihuahua mauling the face of a child (except those that are dog savvy), but everyone tunes into "Pit Bulls kills baby" (again giving exception to the dog savvy). 

And people believe it, because let's face it a lot of people are sheep, they'd rather conform to the norm than think outside the box, they hear something on the news and it must be true. When more than half the time the breed is not an APBT, but something else that "looks like" an APBT and the media has to write a retraction (doesn't always happen though). 

If it has a block head, short coat, muscular body, round eyes, high set ears, etc it must be a "pit bull". As already stated here, most people wouldn't know a true APBT if it bit them in the butt.

Way too many of the myths about this lovely breed are still spread, which perpetuates more ignorance. Locking jaw is the number one of course, although lock jaw can occur it is a rare disease that any breed can get. 

It is sad that a breed that was once "America's Dog" has become the plague it seems.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I'm fairly certain at this point in the discussion you have no idea what my point is, are back and forth contradicting yourself, have no idea what generalizing means, and are irritating me. Move along.


No actually YOU have no idea what my point is. You're rude and condescending, congratulations. I personally enjoy conversation and debate on differing opinions, but you're obviously too full of yourself to talk to someone who doesn't have the same views as you (even though you started criticizing me in a rude manner). I stated opinions, and if you'd actually read what I wrote I said repeatedly that breeds often get discriminated on based on how OWNERS treat different breeds differently. That is my opinion after my experience with hundreds of dogs and owners. I'm sorry that you feel the need to be rude and put me down and belittle me. Have a nice day.



sassafras said:


> Any statistics on that?


Not other than my various college courses on statistics and research. I guess my degree probably means nothing, as its just personal experience. You people are acting like I'm sitting here spewing things about different breeds when all I've done is state my opinions on a breed I love, and used generalizations and stereotypes of other dogs as an example to show that many dogs are discriminated against, and its not always true! I love how people feel as though they can be rude behind the safety of their computer screen.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.
> 
> I think most people are better off with retriever types. But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding
> dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


You know, prior to getting Charlotte, I had retrieving breeds for many, many, many years, and while I loved them, they were NOTHING like Charlotte. She's by far more intelligent, perceptive, loyal and gentle then ANY retriever I've EVER owned. It was never my choice to get a dog that was a Pitbull mix, and prior to meeting her, I probably never would have taken one in (mainly because I travel a lot and there are so many BSL cities), but I'm beyond happy I did, because while the stigma makes living with one difficult sometimes, I'm convinced Pitbulls are one of the greatest family breeds and companions, even more so then retrievers.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

katG said:


> I love how people feel as though they can be rude behind the safety of their computer screen.


I love how it always comes to that. You have no idea what anyone on here acts like in normal life, so it's kind of stupid to even say that.

People just get defensive when you try to throw another type of dog under the bus to show how "pits aren't the only breed that's bad!" It's counter productive and wrong.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

katG said:


> This is exactly true. A LOT of small dogs are people aggressive...





katG said:


> I speak from personal experience working at PetSmart and whether you like him or not, I think Cesar Milan even had a show on Chihuahuas because they can be such terrors. ... I think it is pretty obvious that small dogs are not disciplined or trained in the same way that large dogs are.





katG said:


> all I've done is ... use[d] generalizations and stereotypes of other dogs as an example to show that many dogs are discriminated against, and its not always true!


So you _don't/I] think that small dogs are people aggressive or that Chihuahuas tend to be terrors? You were just using those as examples of generalizations that a more ignorant person, who doesn't know small breeds very well, would say? Because that was certainly not clear from your posts_


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## Cat Condos (Jun 30, 2011)

Rinchan said:


> Well the media doesn't do any good for them. Especially with people falsly claiming that a dog attack was by a pit bull when it was a different breed all together. I think when most people hear about pit bulls they think of fighting dogs and dogs that attack people. I can't convince my mother that they can be great pets, all I hear is "well on the news blah blah blah"
> 
> I think dogs such as Rotties, GSDs, Dobermans are still discriminated against. When I tell people that I want to own a GSD someday, the first thing most say is "That dog could attack you!" and I usually respond with "yes it could, as could a golden retriever or a lab." To which I get a response "but labs and golden retrievers are such nice dogs!" >.< Its hopeless sometimes.
> 
> I often wonder if the two shows on animal planet, Pit Boss and Pitbulls and parolees will help or hurt pit bulls in the long run. I do remember a story I read in Dog Fancy magazine about a guy, who said that he would not have adopted a pit bull before seeing Pits and Parolees, but that is only one case.


I think those two shows are helping. At least I would like to think so. I am tired of the bad talk about pit bulls.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

waterbaby said:


> So you _don't/I] think that small dogs are people aggressive or that Chihuahuas tend to be terrors? You were just using those as examples of generalizations that a more ignorant person, who doesn't know small breeds very well, would say? Because that was certainly not clear from your posts_


_

I'm sure a lot of small dogs are people aggressive AND a lot of big dogs are people aggressive! I did not say Chihuahuas tend to be terrors, I said they CAN be terrors... just as any dog can be! They are one of the smallest breeds, and they CAN be just as aggressive as any big dog, but common sense and experience tells me that a Chihuahua bite is not going to be reported! This statement does not indicate that I believe all Chihuahuas are aggressive. Yes I did say a lot of people tend to hold small dogs and treat them differently than a large dog, which CAN cause behavior problems. 
My point is that PIT BULLS get the worst reputation because they are BIG dogs who can do damage, and when they do, the media goes crazy (and because a lot of low lifes own and fight them). I know small dogs who are wonderful, small dogs who are crazy, big dogs the same... I don't know what I've said thats so obviously offensive to the two of you. Geez. My best friend growing up had Chihuahuas who were sweet as anything. I don't think any breed follows a specific set of behaviors... I think any breed CAN exhibit bad behavior. 
Within my family we have boston terriers, an english bulldog, a boxer, a rottie, a jack russell, a lab, a golden retriever, a pit bull, and a mixed breed (part chow I believe). I love them all _


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

katG said:


> Yes I did say a lot of people tend to hold small dogs and treat them differently than a large dog, which CAN cause behavior problems.


Ugh, I'm getting SOOOO sick of hearing statements like this. People relate to small dogs differently than big dogs, many of which were bred to be treated differently. Just because a dog is a companion and their owner holds them etc etc doesn't mean they are any more likely to develope behavior problems than a dog who is ignored and keeps all four paws on the ground at all times. Most behavior problems develop because an owner doesn't understand how to or isn't able to prevent them. It has little to nothing to do with whether a 4 pound dog is "treated the same" as a 100 pound one. Because expecting dogs that different to be treated exactly the same is kind of absurd.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I agree with Kafka. Shoot.. I held Bella for as long as I possibly could before she got too big... she turned out ok.. by my standards anyways.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

I still hold my pit bull! And my boston terriers! Apparently I'm not very good at making a point lol. Sorry to any I have offended.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

katG said:


> No actually YOU have no idea what my point is. You're rude and condescending, congratulations. I personally enjoy conversation and debate on differing opinions, but you're obviously too full of yourself to talk to someone who doesn't have the same views as you (even though you started criticizing me in a rude manner). I stated opinions, and if you'd actually read what I wrote I said repeatedly that breeds often get discriminated on based on how OWNERS treat different breeds differently. That is my opinion after my experience with hundreds of dogs and owners. I'm sorry that you feel the need to be rude and put me down and belittle me. Have a nice day.
> 
> That's pretty cute you gleaned all that and had yourself a mini melt down over what I said in TEXT. I'm not going to have an implied tone argument with you.
> 
> ...


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Yep I'm pretty cute thanks


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

And exceedingly mature. Don't need much other than that to gather that.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> It usually makes me laugh because uh, what do you want me to do, drive over to where you are and talk to you? Because I guarantee it will be in the same manner I do online. That and if I were truly offended in real life, you'd be happy to not be face to face with me.


Well yeah, and even if someone did "act differently" online than in real life, who gives a crap?? If you only talk to someone online then their behavior in person is absolutely irrelevant. And I think it's a very good thing that lines of communication become more open because people aren't afraid of offending others online. It gets stuff out in the open where you can discuss it with honesty and clarity that might not be possible IRL. That's a good thing, not something to be used as an insult...or at least not a good one, lol.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

kafkabeetle said:


> Well yeah, and even if someone did "act differently" online than in real life, who gives a crap?? If you only talk to someone online then their behavior in person is absolutely irrelevant. And I think it's a very good thing that lines of communication become more open because people aren't afraid of offending others online. It gets stuff out in the open where you can discuss it with honesty and clarity that might not be possible IRL. That's a good thing, not something to be used as an insult...or at least not a good one, lol.


LOL couldn't have said it better.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Okay well I tried apologizing to anyone I offended but apparently you're too offended by my opinion, which I think you misunderstood. I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am sorry if what I said offended you, and I should have given up a long time ago. I love dogs (all breeds!) and used a poor argumentative style to make my point. I honestly have no issues with any breed, or with people who hold their dogs, as I hold my dogs. I was referring to irresponsible dog owners who think bad behavior in small dogs is cute, as well as irresponsible dog owners who enjoy aggression in large dogs. We're all dog lovers here!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

That's why I hate PETA, they so talk out of both sides of their stupid, ignorant mouths. One side says how they want to help ALL animals, the other slanders certain dog breeds (not just potties) & according to them even OWNING a dog is cruel! 

Dumb arses >_<


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> (not just potties)


LOL I think the auto-correct got ya!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> LOL I think the auto-correct got ya!


LOL... Windows 7... a blessing & a curse, its great most of the time, as I am a typo queen & not the best speller... But it sucks when I want to use a cutsey little breed nickname :-S.

All joking aside, its not just pits that are discriminated against ANY breed/dog will be thrown under the bus if they even show justified aggression (protecting owner, family, property etc... Against a criminal).


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## Dorim (Jun 10, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> That's why I hate PETA, they so talk out of both sides of their stupid, ignorant mouths. One side says how they want to help ALL animals, the other slanders certain dog breeds (not just potties) & according to them even OWNING a dog is cruel!
> 
> Dumb arses >_<


UhUh...PETA doesn't want to HELP any animals. They want to remove animals from the human experience. Their ultimate goal is to keep animals from being kept as pets or used for work, food, research or clothing. Period. In the meantime they are using donations from the gullible to fund some fairly fabulous lifestyles for humans.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Reading threads like this makes me upset....

I have a house, 3 small children, me and my husband are not drug dealers, we own a cleaning company lol.

I have a presa mix and 2 bulldogges (I would probably have a pit bull if they were legal here)

I did rescue for many many years and have fostered many many different breeds and mixes and by far the bully breeds beat the rest as far as being "family friendly" breeds. I don't know why anyone would think any differently unless they just were not exposed to these breeds or fell victim to the media hype about "bully" breeds. I participate and train in SchH with both of my bulldogges (according to some teaching them to bite and making them aggressive >insert sarcasm here<) and I trust my dogs completely with my children and others children. YES they can be dog aggressive so can many other breeds, its a combination of prey drive and sometimes fight drive in these breeds but there are MANY MANY breeds that fall under the may be dog aggressive upon maturity label. Temperament is GENETIC and I can't believe some are still of the school that temperament is environmental, all dogs have a range of temperament traits that can be brought out or pushed back by their environmental exposure but the traits need to be there GENETICALLY for this to happen.

High pain tolerance, confidence and nerve (which are genetic temperament traits of most bully breeds) are the ideal temperament traits that make these dogs ideal companions for children/family pets under the right care and supervision/training on behalf of the parents. 

I have personally taken bites by a few dogs, including a pug lol, but never by a bully breed. Not saying it doesn't happen but certainly these breeds are no more HUMAN aggressive then any other breed with a bad genetic temperament (fearful, nerve bag of a dog - which is what causes dogs to bite 90% of the time IMO).

You will also be surprised to know that dutch shepherds have a more powerful bite then a bull mastiff, its not about the head size that makes a dogs bite powerful its genetics, and when training in bite sports its a desired trait.

These are dogs people they are not ornaments, sometimes it seems as if the public likes the lazy, sloppy, sleep all day, needs minimal interaction/training type of breeds. If this is the type of dog you want then why bother to get a dog in the first place?


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

LuckySarah said:


> These are dogs people they are not ornaments, sometimes it seems as if the public likes the lazy, sloppy, sleep all day, needs minimal interaction/training type of breeds. If this is the type of dog you want then why bother to get a dog in the first place?


It always comes back to insulting other people's taste in dogs...just always, ugh! This is why nothing is going to change anytime soon. 

I know people who get companion breeds like maltese, for instance, because they want a companion whose needs they can reasonably provide. They know they aren't especially interested in or skilled at training, and are couch potatoes themselves, so they don't set themselves up for a problem by getting a highly intelligent high energy breed. I think those people are extremely admirable because they are realistic with themselves and what they can/are willing to provide. That is much better than getting "your type of dog" and then realizing they don't fit their lifestyle and rehoming them, which plenty of people do.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

kafkabeetle said:


> It always comes back to insulting other people's taste in dogs...just always, ugh! This is why nothing is going to change anytime soon.
> 
> I know people who get companion breeds like maltese, for instance, because they want a companion whose needs they can reasonably provide. They know they aren't especially interested in or skilled at training, and are couch potatoes themselves, so they don't set themselves up for a problem by getting a highly intelligent high energy breed. I think those people are extremely admirable because they are realistic with themselves and what they can/are willing to provide. That is much better than getting "your type of dog" and then realizing they don't fit their lifestyle and rehoming them, which plenty of people do.


Bottom line is its a dog, ALL dogs require training and exercise, even companion breeds.

If you don't want to or have the time to then get a cat.

It has nothing to do with breeds of dog but everything to do with lazy owners.

Its this perception of breeds (companion, herders, pitbulls) that makes bad dogs. My type of dog no matter if its a pug or a pit bull will be properly trained, exercised and socialized.

Its extremely admirable to me when someone can recognize that they probably don't have the time/space/skills to own a dog and make changes to their lifestyle and knowledge base BEFORE getting a dog of any breed. Then just thinking that because they have a family they need a lab or because they are lazy they need a pug.

I wasn't insulting any ones taste in dogs, I was insulting those who think that having a dog should involve minimal effort on their part and the breeders who try and create breeds or label breeds as "minimal" effort breeds. No dog should be minimal effort.

ETA if someone isn't interested in training or willing to make an effort then they have no business owning a dog (and probably a cat too), maybe they should get a gold fish.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

LuckySarah said:


> Bottom line is its a dog, ALL dogs require training and exercise, even companion breeds.
> 
> If you don't want to or have the time to then get a cat.
> 
> It has nothing to do with breeds of dog but everything to do with lazy owners.


Yes, but some breeds can get their exercise and mental stimulation needs met with short walks/romps around the yard, and a small amount of play. There is nothing wrong with someone wanting a breed that needs only that, and that is content to spend the rest of it's time sleeping, so long as you don't expect that from a breed which that won't be happy with that lifestyle.

I think it's screwed up to say that people who would be bad dog owners in your eyes would be great cat owners. Cats have needs too, and the only cat I ever owned what MUCH higher maintenance than the maltese I know.

Again, you're veering away from just saying you shouldn't hate on pitbulls and instead saying owners who interact differently with their dogs than you do are irresponsible. And that's bullcrap.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

kafkabeetle said:


> Yes, but some breeds can get their exercise and mental stimulation needs met with short walks/romps around the yard, and a small amount of play. There is nothing wrong with someone wanting a breed that needs only that, and that is content to spend the rest of it's time sleeping, so long as you don't expect that from a breed which that won't be happy with that lifestyle.
> 
> I think it's screwed up to say that people who would be bad dog owners in your eyes would be great cat owners. Cats have needs too, and the only cat I ever owned what MUCH higher maintenance than the maltese I know.
> 
> Again, you're veering away from just saying you shouldn't hate on pitbulls and instead* saying owners who interact differently with their dogs than you do are irresponsible. And that's bullcrap.*


I never said that, don't put words in my mouth.

What I said was people who expect a dog to need minimal care have no business owing them. 

If you don't want to do any work then don't get a dog, bottom line. It has nothing to do with working vs non working breeds, but I like how you tried to twist my words around.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

But you DID say that. 



LuckySarah said:


> These are dogs people they are not ornaments, sometimes it seems as if the public likes the lazy, sloppy, sleep all day, needs minimal interaction/training type of breeds. If this is the type of dog you want then why bother to get a dog in the first place?


This statement implies that people who want lazy dogs who sleep all day and need minimal training (you didn't say NO training) think of their dogs as ornaments, which is irresponsible. You said if someone wants this type of dog they shouldn't have one. No word-twisting necessary.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

kafkabeetle said:


> But you DID say that.
> 
> 
> 
> This statement implies that people who want lazy dogs who sleep all day and need minimal training (you didn't say NO training) think of their dogs as ornaments, which is irresponsible. You said if someone wants this type of dog they shouldn't have one. No word-twisting necessary.



OMG Get over it

I said DOGS ARE NOT ORNAMENTS they are dogs that require interaction and WORK. 

So I am looking for a lazy breed who will sleep all day and will be happy with minimal interaction and training?
What breed do you suggest?


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

LuckySarah said:


> OMG Get over it
> 
> I said DOGS ARE NOT ORNAMENTS they are dogs that require interaction and WORK.
> 
> ...


I would explain that no dog will sleep ALL DAY but that many adult shih-tzus and maltese would be quite happy to hang out in your lap for most of the day. Training would be nice, but a lack of training beyond housetraining is usually a-ok. Which is why so many older people have these dogs. Of course, I would also suggest finding an adult animal whose temperment is already established.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Lack of training beyond house training is a big mistake and a big misconception, I hope you never give this advice out to anyone looking for a dog no matter what the breed.

THAT my friend is irresponsible


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

LuckySarah said:


> Lack of training beyond house training is a big mistake and a big misconception, I hope you never give this advice out to anyone looking for a dog no matter what the breed.
> 
> THAT my friend is irresponsible


I just think you're making some very extreme statements here. Yes, training is always good, but is it irresponsible to not focus on training when a dog doesn't have any behavior problems? No. You can't paint every human or dog with the same brush. People obtain dogs with different expectations and goals, and it isn't always to make that dog an obedience champion. While that can become a problem, it isn't always, and if you choose a dog that tends to fit into your lifestyle, you stack the cards in your favor. So it's wrong to look down on someone for desiring a certain type of dog. The same way it's wrong to look down on someone who desires a dog which was bred for fighting.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LuckySarah said:


> Bottom line is its a dog, ALL dogs require training and exercise, even companion breeds.
> 
> If you don't want to or have the time to then get a cat.


Uuuuuhhhhh quite the contrary! My cat requires WAY more maintenance then my dog!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL it's not enough to throw other breeds of dogs under the bus, we have to toss the kitties now, too?


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

RCloud said:


> Uuuuuhhhhh quite the contrary! My cat requires WAY more maintenance then my dog!


Oh sorry I was generalizing,

My cat, and also my friends cat require minimal care so I thought every cat was like that.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

LuckySarah said:


> Lack of training beyond house training is a big mistake...


I don't really care for the Pit Bull discussion, but this interests me. Why would a lack of training beyond housebreaking be a big mistake? Aside from housebreaking, here's what I've taught my Lab/Shar Pei mix: sit, down, spin right and left, back up, peekaboo (I stand with my legs apart and he pokes his head through them to look up at me), and shake hands right and left. Clearly none of those commands is necessary to my dog's well-being; I taught them because it amused me to teach them. I like to think it amused him to learn them, too, but I suspect it mostly "amused" him to get chicken rewards. I didn't need to teach anything beyond this because Alvin didn't have any behaviors that needed correcting. He doesn't resource guard, he doesn't pull on the leash, he doesn't jump on people. In what way would you say I've made a big mistake?

My parents have taught their poodle mix exactly one thing: dance. He gets up on his hind legs and twirls around like a furry little ballerina. It's very cute, but totally useless. There was no reason at all to train him to do it. They didn't even bother to teach him to walk on a loose leash because, well, he hardly weighs anything so pulling on the leash doesn't even count as an inconvenience. But he is a healthy weight, gets walked twice a day, has another doggy friend to play with, is professionally groomed twice a months, and gets all the attention and lap-sitting his little heart desires. He is confident and friendly with strangers and absolutely adores children. In what way have my parents made a big mistake?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

kosmeds said:


> I'm not attracted to any of the bully breeds. Or terriers in general, to be honest. I've never understood why anyone would want one. If it weren't for the junky contingent of dog owners that are attracted to such breeds there wouldn't be such a huge problem in shelters and the bad reputation. Over 60% of all the dogs euthanized in shelters are pit bull types. They also dominate the rosters in available dogs for adoption.


wow the ignorance of some ppl astonishes me, I personally stay away from retrevier types, hounds, & sporting types (no offence to anyone who loves or owns those dogs) not that they aren't great & all, but they aren't for me. I work on a ranch, I have livestock so I have ACDs that not only are my very good friends, but are my work partners. Personally I couldn't imagine owning any other breed or breed-type.

I have always loved pits & bully breeds, but I prolly would never own one due to the fact that although they are great dogs, they just don't fit my lifestyle right now. 



> But all things considered, there probably ought to be laws regarding dog ownership and especially breeding such that people would have to provide reasonable proof that they are worthy before. That might do something to alleviate the oversupply and the damage to the dogs.


Now this i kinda agree with, i wish they had more restrictions on breeders to prevent BYB-Ing, not sure what those should be, & for goD's sake MAKE PUPPY MILLS ILLEGAL!!!!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

One might say the kitties have taught us a lesson here about generalizing the requirements and behavior of pets into "always" and "never" statements.


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## joe_g (Jun 29, 2011)

LuckySarah said:


> Oh sorry I was generalizing,
> 
> My cat, and also my friends cat require minimal care so I thought every cat was like that.


A pit bull attacked my dog once so I thought every pit bull was like that


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> I don't really care for the Pit Bull discussion, but this interests me. Why would a lack of training beyond housebreaking be a big mistake? Aside from housebreaking, here's what I've taught my Lab/Shar Pei mix: sit, down, spin right and left, back up, peekaboo (I stand with my legs apart and he pokes his head through them to look up at me), and shake hands right and left. Clearly none of those commands is necessary to my dog's well-being; I taught them because it amused me to teach them. I like to think it amused him to learn them, too, but I suspect it mostly "amused" him to get chicken rewards. I didn't need to teach anything beyond this because Alvin didn't have any behaviors that needed correcting. He doesn't resource guard, he doesn't pull on the leash, he doesn't jump on people. In what way would you say I've made a big mistake?
> 
> My parents have taught their poodle mix exactly one thing: dance. He gets up on his hind legs and twirls around like a furry little ballerina. It's very cute, but totally useless. There was no reason at all to train him to do it. They didn't even bother to teach him to walk on a loose leash because, well, he hardly weighs anything so pulling on the leash doesn't even count as an inconvenience. But he is a healthy weight, gets walked twice a day, has another doggy friend to play with, is professionally groomed twice a months, and gets all the attention and lap-sitting his little heart desires. He is confident and friendly with strangers and absolutely adores children. In what way have my parents made a big mistake?


I was referring to the novice dog owner, if your dog (or your parents dog) is a happy well rounded dog and is only house trained then you have a good sound dog.
But its not accurate to believe that all dogs (or even most dogs) will be this way, to say that one breed requires only house training is not accurate and its a big reason why dogs end up in shelters. By teaching tricks you are interacting with your dog right? its an important part of owning a dog, all dogs need it.

What urks me is people have this pre determined assumption that because of the breed that the dog will require minimal care or work, its just not true. All dogs require work and effort and potential dogs owners should expect the worst and hope for the best.

I am sure if your dog needed training beyond house training you would provide that right?
and if someone is not willing to provide that then they should look at another pet (not a cat because apparently they can be very high maintenance)


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

It comes down to the individual dog as well folks. There are dogs in rescue every where that fit SOMEONES lifestyle. Even dogs atypical for their breed. When we got Jack he required zero training. ZERO. He knew all basic commands, was good on the leash, house trained, the works. Pretty much the same deal with Magpie. An Elkhound and a Shepherd mix. Not every one is the idyllic owner.. but I forget what we are even talking about any more.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

LuckySarah said:


> I was referring to the novice dog owner, if your dog (or your parents dog) is a happy well rounded dog and is only house trained then you have a good sound dog.
> But its not accurate to believe that all dogs (or even most dogs) will be this way, to say that one breed requires only house training is not accurate and its a big reason why dogs end up in shelters. By teaching tricks you are interacting with your dog right? its an important part of owning a dog, all dogs need it.
> 
> What urks me is people have this pre determined assumption that because of the breed that the dog will require minimal care or work, its just not true. All dogs require work and effort and potential dogs owners should expect the worst and hope for the best.
> ...


I don't really think we disagree generally. I just took issue with your statement that people who want a lazy dog are irresponsible for WANTING THAT, and necessarily think of their dogs are objects or however you put it.

You might also remember that I stated a person wanting this sort of dog should start with an adult that already has this personality. Breeds are just a starting point. Obviously dogs are individuals. I never said any different!


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Charlotte required little to no training beyond marking in the house when we first got her, and she was a stray for lord knows how long. Everything she just seemed to know automatically. 

Of course, we don't know her history and it's very likely she was someone's pet at some point in time, but the point is the amount of training your dog needs depends entirely on the individual dog.


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## LenaCara (May 11, 2011)

Just cause everyone is arguing I would like to add that goldfish are an incredible amount of work. If you don't believe me, jump on a golfish forum and watch them go after each other  . Honestly responsible dog owners are going to do the reaserch and work and read these threads. Irresponsible dog owners don't even know they exhist so everyone on here should just get along cause we obviously love our dogs or we never would have found this forum in the first place.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

LenaCara said:


> Just cause everyone is arguing I would like to add that goldfish are an incredible amount of work. If you don't believe me, jump on a golfish forum and watch them go after each other  . Honestly responsible dog owners are going to do the reaserch and work and read these threads. Irresponsible dog owners don't even know they exhist so everyone on here should just get along cause we obviously love our dogs or we never would have found this forum in the first place.


Good point! I agree!


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

LenaCara said:


> Just cause everyone is arguing I would like to add that goldfish are an incredible amount of work. If you don't believe me, jump on a golfish forum and watch them go after each other



Lol. I would honestly rather scoop poop than clean an aquarium. Even having to clean a small fish bowl is too much like washing dishes, which is a chore that is so not fun for me. And guess what my husband wants...an aquarium full of fish! :O I told him if we get one it better be full of fish that are good to eat because I'm not taking care of them and if I see he isn't either then they'll be what's for dinner.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Hahaha, fuzzy pants that's funny. SO has a beta fish & a bird, a finch. But he cares for those himself, they are his animals . The dogs are my responsibility, I wanted them, so they are my problem, which is ok with mw, its the agreement we had, he gets more fish/birds hr cares for them, I get more dogs I care for them.


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## LenaCara (May 11, 2011)

Fuzzy Pants, I have a 75gal goldfish tank and it's only big enough for 6 if I want to see them live for 20+ years, which I do. But I am kind of a pet freak. So far I have 2 cats, 6 golfish, 1 beta (with his own 20gal tank), a 4 month old puppy, and as of last weekend one bearded drago. I have a very strict routine when it comes to maintenance but when I think about it, it seems insane. The fish were only bad for the first 2 months till the tank was running well, not it only takes 1hr once a week. But for those first 2 months I questioned my decision every day so if your hubby wants some, make sure he does the reaserch first. It was way more involved than I thought going in.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

You guys would die if you saw my Guinea pig habitat and care.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I used to have a rabbit named Gypsy Rose, she was the meanest rabbit ever lol. She stayed outside in a habitat I made with dad's help. She had a cover for the rain & an enclosed house with shavings foe the cold but it also stayed pretty cool in summer. 3 times a wk or so, I would let her run (supervised of course) around the yard while I cleaned her cage. She lives for over 10 yrs but I had to wait for her to die before I got Bear, my JRT


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I used to have the nastiest rabbit ever. I named him Officer Carl Winslow. He was huge. growled like a dog, and would kick or bite the crap out of you if he got the chance. I still went through the terror of caring for him and letting him out.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

hahaha.. I care for 4 dogs, 3 horses, and 3 cats everyday. I am TERRIFIED to own fish. I bought a beta for my exbf for his birthday a few years ago, and I had such anxiety about keeping the water temperature right, cleaning the tank, feeding... it was crazy! It seemed like it was so much easier to accidentally kill a fish. I'll stick with my fellow mammals. Horses are by far the most difficult to care for. I've had some nasty ones (I got kicked once and spent 30 days in bed with a broken rib, lacerated spleen and liver, and had a collapsed lung when I got to the ER). Horses can't throw up so feeding right is crucial, and its hard to find people to care for them if I'm away. What a joy!! lol


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Brittany Barrix said:


> It's times like these where I wish I would've kept my mouth shut about the fence, but I didn't know that he was going to send electric bolts through the poor dog's neck. That's what makes a mean dog and a perfect media Pit Bull. Humans are an ignorant species. That's all it comes down to.


Shock collars can be a very effective training tool when used properly. Doesn't make a dog mean.



katG said:


> As for people who say no dogs are genetically aggressive, I strongly disagree. My parents have a boxer who was brought up the same as their other dogs, had nothing traumatic happen to her, etc etc... when she hit maturity she started attacking other dogs... and I mean going for the throat trying to kill. She had my mom's boston terrier (who she used to cuddle with on the couch) by the neck and was shaking her drawing blood (the dog is fine). So now the boxer is kept away from all other dogs. Incidentally every female boxer I've ever met has some type of aggression towards other female dogs. They sure are sweethearts with people though!
> Pits are discriminated against because they are the dog of choice for lowlifes unfortunately. They are trained to fight, etc.


People who make such statements are clueless about genetic temperament in dogs and other animals. My Boxer had HA issues among other genetic health and temperament problems. It's a shame how overbred they are!

Pit Bulls are not trained to fight. They are pitted against 1 another by careless people.



Miranda16 said:


> Gross generalizations get you nowhere. For example .... I know a standard poodle (water dog) that hates water.


Not really. With people who breed for only looks, pets, bybs mills you are going to get dogs that lose traits and don't conform to their breed. It's not gross generalization to say certain breeds have certain traits just because some within the breed are exceptions or traits lost due to breeding. Terriers go for prey, herding dogs like to herd ect if not then there would be no point to selective breeding.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Spicy1_VV said:


> People who make such statements are clueless about genetic temperament in dogs and other animals. My Boxer had HA issues among other genetic health and temperament problems. It's a shame how overbred they are!
> 
> Pit Bulls are not trained to fight. They are pitted against 1 another by careless people.


My father picked up our Boxer from a random breeder in NYC, and the breeder wouldn't let him see the father dog because he was "mean". My dad obviously did not make an intelligent decision (he did this as a surprise for my mom... she was thrilled of course...not). The Boxer has a ton of health issues and is incredibly dog aggressive. However, she is the best dog with people you could have, and she is incredibly intelligent.

You're correct... trained to fight is not a good way to describe what they do.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

There was 1 in town (Boxer) who was HA & DA and the owner allowed the dog of leash. One day that ended poorly, of course it was inevitable with an aggressive dog and irresponsible owner. 

BTW your signature is adorable


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Spicy1_VV said:


> There was 1 in town (Boxer) who was HA & DA and the owner allowed the dog of leash. One day that ended poorly, of course it was inevitable with an aggressive dog and irresponsible owner.
> 
> BTW your signature is adorable


Unbelievable. People can be such idiots. We have a neighbor with a GSD who always leaves it off leash... we frequently walk by their house with our dogs (on leash of course). So far their dog has attacked the boxer, my sister's rottie, and lunged at my horses as I rode by in the road. Nobody has gotten hurt or injured (fortunately), but the people are such morons they never apologize or say a word they just grab their dog and walk away. 

Thanks about the signature! The one on the left is the one in the middles mother (boston terriers) and the one on the right is my pit bull as a 12 week old puppy.


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## Irishman (May 13, 2011)

FilleBelle said:


> I don't really care for the Pit Bull discussion, but this interests me. Why would a lack of training beyond housebreaking be a big mistake? Aside from housebreaking, here's what I've taught my Lab/Shar Pei mix: sit, down, spin right and left, back up, peekaboo (I stand with my legs apart and he pokes his head through them to look up at me), and shake hands right and left. Clearly none of those commands is necessary to my dog's well-being; I taught them because it amused me to teach them. I like to think it amused him to learn them, too, but I suspect it mostly "amused" him to get chicken rewards. I didn't need to teach anything beyond this because Alvin didn't have any behaviors that needed correcting. He doesn't resource guard, he doesn't pull on the leash, he doesn't jump on people. In what way would you say I've made a big mistake?


In many ways. Training a dog basic manners, such as not jumping on people, can keep children and elderly guests from winding up in the hospital. Also, training a dog outside and away from your home gets them used to accepting different environments and meeting strange people. This is basic socialization. Without it your dog can become adversely reactive.

It's good that your dog doesn't jump on people or pull on the leash. Many dogs will do this without being taught not to. It's so universal that they're some of the most asked about problems I've seen.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Come when called and stay are also very important. Could save your dog in many situations. "Leave it" is important as well.


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## curiositee (Jul 4, 2011)

I used to be deathly afraid of Pitbulls growing up because there was a house nearby that had a low fence (we're talking like barely 3-4 feet) and three Pitbull-looking dogs would snarl, bark, and jump up at the fence whenever I walked by with my chicken-in-disguise Lab (RIP baby girl), clear on the other side of the street. I hated walking by and avoided doing so whenever I could, because judging by their behavior, I was sure that if they ever got loose, my utterly useless 80 pound dog, who froze in terror in the presence of everything from seagulls to yapping Yorkies, would never make it home whole.

Looking back, I realize I may have been a little ignorant in automatically assuming they were Pitbulls - I think they might have been Staffies or Bullies or something similar. A lot of people make the same mistake, I think.

Can someone shed some light on how to tell between a Pitbull and other "Pitbull-like" breeds? Google Images is hardly helpful; it lumps together all the different breeds (along with the occasional rapper).

And what are these guys, actually? http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images21/PitBullTerrierTiggerFetch1.jpg | http://www.freedoglistings.com/pics...ue/010345_I9T_Pit-Bull-Terrier-Mississipi.jpg I'm a little skeptical that they are both Pitbulls like the sites claim. Because I'd probably take the first one home with me, and run far, far, FAR away from the second. Thoughts?


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I used to have a rabbit named Gypsy Rose, she was the meanest rabbit ever lol. She stayed outside in a habitat I made with dad's help. She had a cover for the rain & an enclosed house with shavings foe the cold but it also stayed pretty cool in summer. 3 times a wk or so, I would let her run (supervised of course) around the yard while I cleaned her cage. She lives for over 10 yrs but I had to wait for her to die before I got Bear, my JRT


lol yeah...you think my pibble is vicious. You haven't met Boobah my rabbit. The dogs...will show you where the good stuff is if you're breaking in and happend to pay attention to 'em. The rabbit on the other hand growls...actually GROWLS. And snaps her teeth >< VICIOUS ATTACK BUNNY! RUUUUN D:

And here's something to think about. All those 'vicious pitbull attacks' may not be bullies at all. 

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/breedbanslabradormistake.htm

This is a case where a purebred lab was mistaken for a pit.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

curiositee said:


> I used to be deathly afraid of Pitbulls growing up because there was a house nearby that had a low fence (we're talking like barely 3-4 feet) and three Pitbull-looking dogs would snarl, bark, and jump up at the fence whenever I walked by with my chicken-in-disguise Lab (RIP baby girl), clear on the other side of the street. I hated walking by and avoided doing so whenever I could, because judging by their behavior, I was sure that if they ever got loose, my utterly useless 80 pound dog, who froze in terror in the presence of everything from seagulls to yapping Yorkies, would never make it home whole.
> 
> Looking back, I realize I may have been a little ignorant in automatically assuming they were Pitbulls - I think they might have been Staffies or Bullies or something similar. A lot of people make the same mistake, I think.
> 
> ...


This first is an AmBully (not to be confused with the Am Bulldog), the second looks like another AmBully but one of the less extreme ones. AmBullies have like 6 different looks to them all apart of their "Standard".


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

curiositee said:


> I used to be deathly afraid of Pitbulls growing up because there was a house nearby that had a low fence (we're talking like barely 3-4 feet) and three Pitbull-looking dogs would snarl, bark, and jump up at the fence whenever I walked by with my chicken-in-disguise Lab (RIP baby girl), clear on the other side of the street. I hated walking by and avoided doing so whenever I could, because judging by their behavior, I was sure that if they ever got loose, my utterly useless 80 pound dog, who froze in terror in the presence of everything from seagulls to yapping Yorkies, would never make it home whole.
> 
> Looking back, I realize I may have been a little ignorant in automatically assuming they were Pitbulls - I think they might have been Staffies or Bullies or something similar. A lot of people make the same mistake, I think.
> 
> ...


From my understanding (and I know some people disagree) a "Pit Bull" is a type of dog that includes a few different breeds including- American Pit Bull terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire bull terrier... People also like to breed other breeds into the Pit Bull to make them larger, more muscular etc. This includes breeding Pits with different type of Bulldogs. My dog (from an accidental litter) is 1/4 American Bulldog and 3/4 Pit Bull of whatever variety. He will be taller and heavier than a Pit due to the Am Bulldog in him. I believe (back me up here anyone), that a American Pit Bull Terrier and AmStaffs are more in the 50-60 pound range, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are smaller than that. My dog will be 75-80 pound when done growing, but looks just like a Pit. I don't really care about the distinctions of Pit, Staffie, etc, I just call them all Pit Bulls (however some people do care, so don't get mad at me lol). 
The first dog you posted looks like a Pit Bull. The second looks like a Pit with something else bred in to form a line that looks like that. Pit Bulls were not originally that stocky... maybe English bulldog? 
As far as the Pit Bull looking dogs barking at the fence, regardless of the type of dogs, many dogs will bark when behind a fence and not necessarily be aggressive when you're on the same side of the fence as them. My dog barks at the fence when he sees someone walk by, but has NEVER attacked a dog or person. Same with my sisters rottweiler, who believe me sounds MEAN... she is the nicest dog you'll ever meet!



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> This first is an AmBully (not to be confused with the Am Bulldog), the second looks like another AmBully but one of the less extreme ones. AmBullies have like 6 different looks to them all apart of their "Standard".


Oh I thought the first one looked like some type of regular Pit... maybe because its sitting down its hard to tell. I guess its just I consider a lot of different looks "pit bull types". Do you know much about AmBullies? Are they the ones bred with English Bulldogs? I may be misinformed... I've done some reading but everyone says something different... hence me giving up and calling them all pit bull type dogs ha ha


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

katG said:


> I believe (back me up here anyone), that a American Pit Bull Terrier and AmStaffs are more in the 50-60 pound range, and Staffordshire Bull Terriers are smaller than that. My dog will be 75-80 pound when done growing, but looks just like a Pit. I don't really care about the distinctions of Pit, Staffie, etc, I just call them all Pit Bulls (however some people do care, so don't get mad at me lol).


APBTs by standard are 30-60lbs generally w/ listing of 30-50lbs for females and 35-60lbs for males. Though they can be larger CH Alligator was 80lbs, GR CH May Day 75lbs or smaller VG's Coca Cola 27lbs. I've had them 25 - 60lbs. Though my preference is to smaller. 25-40lbs max. 

Since APBT were not bred for physical type there isn't always a lot of conformity. Bloodline will give you an idea and the pedigree. Though nothing is written a stone, a 65lbs Put can produce a 40lbs Pit and vice versa. 

AST don't have a weight standard. 18-19 for male and 17-18 for females. I've seen some nice old school staffs which were upper 40s to mid 50s that looked great. But many are bred larger and needy too. 70, 80 or larger. Weight & height should be proportionate its just not always the case 

SBT weight overlaps w/ smaller APBT. Males 28-38 and females 24-34. Height 14-16"

American Bully are typically heavy weights though sometimes thriwbacks are seen who are smaller look and size of Pits.

Your pup is cute. Being a mix could be larger but that's not always true. A mix could still be the size of a Pit, ect.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Irishman said:


> In many ways. Training a dog basic manners, such as not jumping on people, can keep children and elderly guests from winding up in the hospital. Also, training a dog outside and away from your home gets them used to accepting different environments and meeting strange people. This is basic socialization. Without it your dog can become adversely reactive.
> 
> It's good that your dog doesn't jump on people or pull on the leash. Many dogs will do this without being taught not to. It's so universal that they're some of the most asked about problems I've seen.


I was responding to a post in which the blanket statement was made that owners who are not interested in extensively training their dogs should not own dogs at all. My point in discussing my own dog was that there are plenty of available dogs that don't _require _extensive training. Rather than saying people who don't want to extensively train their dogs shouldn't own them, it would be more appropriate to say that people who don't want to extensively train their dogs shouldn't own dogs that require extensive training.


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## Doggy Girl (Jul 7, 2011)

Why pitbulls if you treat them right their lovable and caring dogs!
Staffies are also treated diffrently because of their breed but i the most lovable staffie! 
She loves everyone that we love. Shes a fantasitc guard dog and would protect the family against anything!
Dogs bit her (mostly little ones) i dont understand and she dosent either.
She hasnt reacted but its been going on for sometime and i've noticed she's had enough when dogs do it too her now she'll put her shackles up;
I dont know what to do its not like a can tell off all of the dogs and they'll probaley just keep doing it.  I need some help guys


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> I was responding to a post in which the blanket statement was made that owners who are not interested in extensively training their dogs should not own dogs at all. My point in discussing my own dog was that there are plenty of available dogs that don't _require _extensive training. Rather than saying people who don't want to extensively train their dogs shouldn't own them, it would be more appropriate to say that people who don't want to extensively train their dogs shouldn't own dogs that require extensive training.


Where did I say extensive training?

please quote it for me

I believe I said minimal training, and I even went back to read the old posts.....
There is a big difference.



Irishman said:


> In many ways. Training a dog basic manners, such as not jumping on people, can keep children and elderly guests from winding up in the hospital. Also, training a dog outside and away from your home gets them used to accepting different environments and meeting strange people. This is basic socialization. Without it your dog can become adversely reactive.
> 
> It's good that your dog doesn't jump on people or pull on the leash. Many dogs will do this without being taught not to. It's so universal that they're some of the most asked about problems I've seen.


Exactly, how many posts do we see on this board about people who can't even house train a dog, yet we are saying that its ok to get a dog and expect nothing beyond house training. Its unrealistic, for any breed. TBH I can't even believe that there is argument about it.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

I think in a lot of situations the human needs to be trained just as much as the dog lol. A lot of dog owners are probably irresponsible because they are uneducated about dogs! I agree that dogs should all have some training and socialization. 
Heres my idea- I think EVERYONE who wants a purchase or adopt a dog should have to take some type of course and test. An informative, human only, class about dog nutrition, dog behavior, dog training, common issues, safety, socialization and just being responsible in general. A test after this to make sure people actually retain information. Then a dog obedience course with their new dog. Then some type of certificate and tag would be given and required by law to have. This may be a pain to some people who know a lot about dogs, don't want to bother, etc., but it would be informative, good for the dogs, and worth it for me if its going to educate people who may not be as informed as me. 
I would draw a comparison between this and procedure to get a pistol permit or license, or even a car permit or license. Guns are not dangerous themselves, but if they are in an uneducated persons hand an accident is more likely to occur, so people must take a course, a test, and have references to get the permit (at least in my state). 
Cars the same... they can be potentially dangerous without education and testing. Its not that people are going to go out with the intention of hurting someone or something with a vehicle, its that some people just aren't as good at driving as others.
Just my thoughts.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

katG said:


> I think in a lot of situations the human needs to be trained just as much as the dog lol. A lot of dog owners are probably irresponsible because they are uneducated about dogs! I agree that dogs should all have some training and socialization.
> Heres my idea- I think EVERYONE who wants a purchase or adopt a dog should have to take some type of course and test. An informative, human only, class about dog nutrition, dog behavior, dog training, common issues, safety, socialization and just being responsible in general. A test after this to make sure people actually retain information. Then a dog obedience course with their new dog. Then some type of certificate and tag would be given and required by law to have. This may be a pain to some people who know a lot about dogs, don't want to bother, etc., but it would be informative, good for the dogs, and worth it for me if its going to educate people who may not be as informed as me.
> I would draw a comparison between this and procedure to get a pistol permit or license, or even a car permit or license. Guns are not dangerous themselves, but if they are in an uneducated persons hand an accident is more likely to occur, so people must take a course, a test, and have references to get the permit (at least in my state).
> Cars the same... they can be potentially dangerous without education and testing. Its not that people are going to go out with the intention of hurting someone or something with a vehicle, its that some people just aren't as good at driving as others.
> Just my thoughts.


I 100% agree, a friend of my husbands just got a dog (a BYB english mastiff/lab mix at 5 weeks old lol) He didn't even know that dogs required training at all, didn't know what a crate was, didn't know that rubbing a dogs nose (never mind a 5 week old puppy) in their own mess will teach them not to mess in the house...... good god the list goes on and on.

I can so picture this dog in a shelter in about a year or 8 months from now.
Its a shame because his intentions are good, he just does not have the education behind him to handle this dog properly.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

LuckySarah said:


> I 100% agree, a friend of my husbands just got a dog (a BYB english mastiff/lab mix at 5 weeks old lol) He didn't even know that dogs required training at all, didn't know what a crate was, didn't know that rubbing a dogs nose (never mind a 5 week old puppy) in their own mess will teach them not to mess in the house...... good god the list goes on and on.
> 
> I can so picture this dog in a shelter in about a year or 8 months from now.
> Its a shame because his intentions are good, he just does not have the education behind him to handle this dog properly.


Ugh thats horrible... people really don't know!! Even people who have had dogs their whole lives don't do the right things frequently. My parents always had dogs, they were healthy, vaccinated, happy... but they didn't realize the key socialization part of dog ownership. Their dogs would freak outside of the house/yard. It was stressful for the dog, and stinks because you can't take them anywhere with your or they were frantic. They also used to feed with just leaving dog food out and allowing the dog to eat whenever. I became a dog trainer at PetSmart and they have learned a lot. They didn't have bad intentions, just didn't know what the best things for the dogs were. 
I think if there were required classes for dogs and people it may help immensely to make dogs and humans happier with dog ownership!
Another thing that I'm sure bothers many people is breed specific legislation and apartments etc not allowing certain breeds. My sister has a rottweiler and could not find an apartment anywhere that would allow her with the dog! Yet there are other huge dogs living there. Solution- if you own a dog (any breed) and want to rent an apartment or house from anyone, your dog should have some sort of specific training and certification. There is no reason a certain breed should be discriminated against. If they want to discriminate based on size then fine. Drives me crazy, and this seems like a good solution that would increase safety as well.


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

Doggy Girl said:


> Why pitbulls if you treat them right their lovable and caring dogs!
> Staffies are also treated diffrently because of their breed but i the most lovable staffie!
> She loves everyone that we love. Shes a fantasitc guard dog and would protect the family against anything!
> Dogs bit her (mostly little ones) i dont understand and she dosent either.
> ...


If your dog doesn't enjoy having other dogs around her, it sounds like you should control her situation such that she is not forced to have close encounters with other dogs. Or work with someone who can better read the situation and language signals that are occurring. If she has escalated her behavior such that she now snarls at dogs that approach her, don't ignore it, if anything happens she will be the one blamed, it really doesn't matter how it all goes down. Also, where are you taking her that includes so many dogs biting her? I would stop going there, wherever that is.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

LuckySarah said:


> Where did I say extensive training?
> 
> please quote it for me
> 
> ...


I think you're being extremely silly and taking the argument somewhere different from where it started. You stated that people who prefer to only provide minimal training (which to me means housetraining) should not have a dog. And it's just bullsh*t to say that. My disagreement with that didn't mean it's responsible to get a dog with lots of problems, then not train it. It meant that if someone doesn't have the time or interest to do much training, their are options for them which are responsible. The main option would be buying a middle-aged dog from a shelter, who doesn't have any major behavior problems.

My mother "in-law" has three companion breeds that aren't formally trained. They don't have good recall so she keeps them on leash. They jump on people, but they are quite small so that is harmless. Otherwise they have absolutely no problems, and in all honesty I do not believe that they need the training. I would never say she was a bad dog owner because of her dog's lack of training.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

On the topic of Pitbulls being Discriminated against:

My City's newspaper just made quite the lengthy article on July 3rd. in what is called our "Connect" section of the paper. Titled: "Pit bulls 'Nanny dog' or neighborhood nightmare?" That has created quite the stir - mostly from people who hate the American Pit Bull Terrier. 

One person was even quoted from the newspaper's website in a publication of the paper a few days later stating that "..pitbulls serve no purpose to the general public and they should all be put down.."

I was raised around four pitbulls and even personally trained two of them. My best friend has a 4 month old pit-mastiff mix and couldn't be described as anything other than a "gentle giant".

People only hear the bad things about the breed and judge the entire population of pit bulls based off of new reports like "Pit bull kills child next door" or "Police shoot pit bull after biting man"
Or the big headline story a few years back about Michael Vick's dog fighting.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Niraya said:


> On the topic of Pitbulls being Discriminated against:
> 
> My City's newspaper just made quite the lengthy article on July 3rd. in what is called our "Connect" section of the paper. Titled: "Pit bulls 'Nanny dog' or neighborhood nightmare?" That has created quite the stir - mostly from people who hate the American Pit Bull Terrier.
> 
> ...


Ugh. Some people. Bad drivers kill people, should we outlaw cars? I swear some people have nothing better to do with their time. I think the Michael Vick story actually started a movement to improve the image of Pit Bulls since so many of his dogs were able to be adopted out as pets. 
I take my Pit Bull everywhere I can with me because he is so friendly with other dogs and people. A lot of people seem to be shocked by this. "I thought they were vicious!" etc. Then there is the occasional person who will pet the dog, find out he is a pit, and then walk away disgusted. Uh you seemed to like him before you knew his breed?? And if you can't even identify a Pit by looking at one then you probably don't have a very good basis to discriminate against them!


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

katG said:


> ...I think the Michael Vick story actually started a movement to improve the image of Pit Bulls since so many of his dogs were able to be adopted out as pets...


I didn't mean the incident was bad for the breed. I meant that people heard what kind of dogs were fighting and that's all they see about the breed "Pitbulls are fighters" "Pitbulls are bred to kill" this that and the other.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Niraya said:


> I didn't mean the incident was bad for the breed. I meant that people heard what kind of dogs were fighting and that's all they see about the breed "Pitbulls are fighters" "Pitbulls are bred to kill" this that and the other.


I know I agree with you, I was just ranting along with you


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

katG said:


> I know I agree with you, I was just ranting along with you


Oh! I thought I had maybe confused you!! I was so worried!

Ranting is good though 

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/entertainment-general/index.ssf/2011/07/the_american_pit_bull_terrier.html

^ this is a link to the article that was published in my local newspaper.


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## JSporty1 (Jun 28, 2009)

I have a pit bull/great dane mix and a pittie. They are wonderful dogs, and I thank God every day for bringing them into my life. My big girl, Gir, is the sweetest, most amazing dog I have ever owned, yet because she is large and looks like a pit bull, most people are initially terrified of her, and I routinely get criticized by ignorant people for having pit bulls. The ignorance surrounding the breed never ceases to amaze me.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Probably cause their jaws are so much more powerful than other dogs. M not exaggerating. Had an incident in which my grumpy old boxer (female) tried to break up a play session that my Giant schnauzer pup(8 or 9 months old) was having with 2 one year old Pit brothers-- she(the Boxer) just got in the middle and tried to dominate. One of the Pits whirled around and grabbed her. I immediately caught her and put her on leash and we (me and the other owner) ended the play session. There was no blood, and none of the 3 young dogs were growling, so we parted ways pretty amiacably. Over the next few days however the Boxers shoulder began to swell and eventually burst open. Her entire shoulder had been crushed by the force of the single bite. Luckily she is a 80 pound German style Boxer girl and built like a truck... she required extensive wound care (it healed inside out, and drained continously for 3 weeks) and antibiotics... 
Since then, I take Pits way more seriously then I ever did-- and I have a friend who is in Pit rescue who I always thought was being too over protective ( I am ashamed to say this) in the way she handled her Pits....
I see now what all the fuss is about. And I dont blame the Pits. Just aware that their awesome strength is to be respected and managed carefully.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If the entire shoulder had been "crushed in a single bite", your dog wouldn't have been able to walk. I think it's more likely your dog developed an abscess from a puncture wound.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Candydb said:


> Probably cause their jaws are so much more powerful than other dogs. M not exaggerating. Had an incident in which my grumpy old boxer (female) tried to break up a play session that my Giant schnauzer pup(8 or 9 months old) was having with 2 one year old Pit brothers-- she(the Boxer) just got in the middle and tried to dominate. One of the Pits whirled around and grabbed her. I immediately caught her and put her on leash and we (me and the other owner) ended the play session. There was no blood, and none of the 3 young dogs were growling, so we parted ways pretty amiacably. Over the next few days however the Boxers shoulder began to swell and eventually burst open. Her entire shoulder had been crushed by the force of the single bite. Luckily she is a 80 pound German style Boxer girl and built like a truck... she required extensive wound care (it healed inside out, and drained continously for 3 weeks) and antibiotics...
> Since then, I take Pits way more seriously then I ever did-- and I have a friend who is in Pit rescue who I always thought was being too over protective ( I am ashamed to say this) in the way she handled her Pits....
> I see now what all the fuss is about. And I dont blame the Pits. Just aware that their awesome strength is to be respected and managed carefully.


The fact is in terms of jaw strength when measure in pounds per square inch the PB came in third or fourth in comparison to other breeds. That the PB has the strongest bite is fiction that is told over and over again based on useless anecdotal evidence.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If your dog's shoulder was crushed she would have need surgery. I knew a dog who got hit by a car and shattered his shoulder, and he certainly needed more than antibiotics and wound care (like surgery and physical therapy). I think that was just a bad bite infection.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Bones said:


> The fact is in terms of jaw strength when measure in pounds per square inch the PB came in third or fourth in comparison to other breeds. That the PB has the strongest bite is fiction that is told over and over again based on useless anecdotal evidence.


[/QUOTE]
If the entire shoulder had been "crushed in a single bite", your dog wouldn't have been able to walk. I think it's more likely your dog developed an abscess from a puncture wound. [/QUOTE]

OMG people I was just saying that I have had dogs for hmmmm (first dog age 5) 38 years now and was shocked that such a seemingly minor-- 2 second-- contact (no blood or visible bite mark remember) caused such injury to a very solidly built dog.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Candydb said:


> If the entire shoulder had been "crushed in a single bite", your dog wouldn't have been able to walk. I think it's more likely your dog developed an abscess from a puncture wound.
> 
> OMG people I was just saying that I have had dogs for hmmmm (first dog age 5) 38 years now and was shocked that such a seemingly minor-- 2 second-- contact (no blood or visible bite mark remember) caused such injury to a very solidly built dog.


OMG people are just saying they find your story hard to believe.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Not for all the money in the world will I go down THIS road again.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm always surprised when someone gets a raging infection from a simple cat bite. That doesn't mean the cat has strong bite pressure, it just means cat mouths are germy and puncture wounds tend to get infected.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Candydb said:


> Probably cause their jaws are so much more powerful than other dogs. M not exaggerating. Had an incident in which my grumpy old boxer (female) tried to break up a play session that my Giant schnauzer pup(8 or 9 months old) was having with 2 one year old Pit brothers-- she(the Boxer) just got in the middle and tried to dominate. One of the Pits whirled around and grabbed her. I immediately caught her and put her on leash and we (me and the other owner) ended the play session. There was no blood, and none of the 3 young dogs were growling, so we parted ways pretty amiacably. Over the next few days however the Boxers shoulder began to swell and eventually burst open. Her entire shoulder had been crushed by the force of the single bite. Luckily she is a 80 pound German style Boxer girl and built like a truck... she required extensive wound care (it healed inside out, and drained continously for 3 weeks) and antibiotics...
> Since then, I take Pits way more seriously then I ever did-- and I have a friend who is in Pit rescue who I always thought was being too over protective ( I am ashamed to say this) in the way she handled her Pits....
> I see now what all the fuss is about. And I dont blame the Pits. Just aware that their awesome strength is to be respected and managed carefully.


are exaggerating. because they arent.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

It is really mind boggling to me how much people buy into this stuff.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> It is really mind boggling to me how much people buy into this stuff.


I need education then. 
Isnt there something about the way they lock their jaws -- or do all dogs do that when fully engaged in a full on bite?
I saw one lock her jaws around another dogs head (a pup) --and it was really hard to get her off of him. And I dont mean neck I mean head-- he was screaming his little head off. 
I live in a fairly urban area -- run into a lot of Pits -- and most are great. Unfortuantly there is a whole contigent of (yes they are guys-- the human owners that is) that bring their unneutered pits to a favorite park.. One guy never has a collar on his dog either... Its pretty provocative behavior. I have females, fixed but even they respond very differently to unneutered male dogs....
I dont feel that I am buying into hysteria or that I even dont like Pits-- I have always been drawn to Bullies.... I like dogs with a bit of gameness (I always saw that as spunk) and spent years researching Cane Corsos... before deciding I didnt have the room for them...
O and in my previous post re the bite wound that yes abcessed, I didnt mean literally that her shoulder BONES were crushed, but that the shoulder muscle had really been squashed/ bruised very thoroughly. SHe was limping but I never saw any blood until the poor things shoulder swelled up and burst open.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

All dogs can resist their mouths being opened when they don't want it to be. My brother's chiwinnie can force her mouth closed with a fair amount of power when she wants to. Pit Bulls' jaw, to just be short and sweet, do NOT 'lock'.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Candydb said:


> I need education then.


Then you should start by reading this thread from the beginning.

And then:
Bad Rap
Pit Bull Central
The Encyclopedia of the American Pit Bull Terrier
Pit Bull History


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## shaunna (Jul 14, 2011)

I've only been lucky enough to know 1 pit in my life. He was owned by a bad lookin' dude, like some of you have described in this thread. One difference, he never had a chain for a collar because he never owned a collar or leash. We were roomates for about a year. They had 2 babies and 2 cats, as well as the pit living there. I moved in with my lab/rottie cross (female), an iguana, a hedge hog and a parrot. We NEVER had any sort of issue. This pit was the most lovey, dovey dog that I've ever known. The ONLY thing that he did wrong was when we'd go out at night, he'd open the window, jump threw, and walk across town to find us. We'd come stumbling out of the bar at 2am and there he'd be waiting for us! Maybe he was over-socialized? Because ALL he wanted to do was be with living, breathing beings, whether they were animals or people. He was a GREAT dog, so personable, intelligent, eager to please, and a big suck to boot :O) That was 15 yrs ago, but because of him, I have never generalized when it comes to that breed.


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

Candydb said:


> I need education then.
> Isnt there something about the way they lock their jaws -- or do all dogs do that when fully engaged in a full on bite?
> I saw one lock her jaws around another dogs head (a pup) --and it was really hard to get her off of him. And I dont mean neck I mean head-- he was screaming his little head off.
> I live in a fairly urban area -- run into a lot of Pits -- and most are great. Unfortuantly there is a whole contigent of (yes they are guys-- the human owners that is) that bring their unneutered pits to a favorite park.. One guy never has a collar on his dog either... Its pretty provocative behavior. I have females, fixed but even they respond very differently to unneutered male dogs....
> ...


No they don't lock. They do have strong jaws, and like to "hold on" when they are biting something (try playing tug of war with my Pit... its a workout lol). Any type of dog can bite down and hold on, ie. my mom's boxer clamping down on her boston's neck and lifting her off of the ground, that took a lot to get her to let go, including stitches for my mom. 

I think a person could probably bite someone hard enough to cause an abscess. I don't think you should be wary of the dog, you should be wary of irresponsible owners.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Candy I can't seem to quote you on my phone but I am glad you are willing to read up on Pits.  Some people get a preconceived notion about them and are not open to learning.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Candydb said:


> Probably cause their jaws are so much more powerful than other dogs.


 You are incorrect. Actually The Rottweiler has the strongest jaw pressure followed by the German Shepherd. Pit Bulls are no stronger in the jaw then any other medium sized dog really. What makes them different then a Rottie or GSD is the terrier in them. They don't like to give up, which is where the myth of "Pit Bulls jaws lock" which is a myth. The truth is, they LOVE to grip and hold, and do not like to give up. Their jaws aren't locked like people want to believe, they just don't like to lose. 


> M not exaggerating. Had an incident in which my grumpy old boxer (female) tried to break up a play session that my Giant schnauzer pup(8 or 9 months old) was having with 2 one year old Pit brothers-- she(the Boxer) just got in the middle and tried to dominate. One of the Pits whirled around and grabbed her. I immediately caught her and put her on leash and we (me and the other owner) ended the play session. There was no blood, and none of the 3 young dogs were growling, so we parted ways pretty amiacably. Over the next few days however the Boxers shoulder began to swell and eventually burst open. Her entire shoulder had been crushed by the force of the single bite. Luckily she is a 80 pound German style Boxer girl and built like a truck... she required extensive wound care (it healed inside out, and drained continously for 3 weeks) and antibiotics...


 No single bite can crush a shoulder of a dog unless the dog already has an issue with it's bones. I am sorry that that happened, but even another boxer, bulldog, or lab could cause the same injuries. It just happens that you say a "Pit Bull" and because of what you've been forced to believe by the media, just put things together. Pit Bulls do not belong in dog parks because of this reason. They get blamed for everything even if they aren't at fault.




Candydb said:


> I need education then.
> Isnt there something about the way they lock their jaws -- or do all dogs do that when fully engaged in a full on bite?


 See my first pont



> I saw one lock her jaws around another dogs head (a pup) --and it was really hard to get her off of him. And I dont mean neck I mean head-- he was screaming his little head off.


 again see point one



> I live in a fairly urban area -- run into a lot of Pits -- and most are great. Unfortuantly there is a whole contigent of (yes they are guys-- the human owners that is) that bring their unneutered pits to a favorite park.. One guy never has a collar on his dog either... Its pretty provocative behavior. I have females, fixed but even they respond very differently to unneutered male dogs....


 This is what we refer to as an irresponsible Pit Bull Owner. These owners are what gives the breed a bad name. Now would you think the same of this guy if he has a Lab? GSD? Standard Poodle? No? Welcome to breed stereotyping. 



> I dont feel that I am buying into hysteria or that I even dont like Pits-- I have always been drawn to Bullies.... I like dogs with a bit of gameness (I always saw that as spunk) and spent years researching Cane Corsos... before deciding I didnt have the room for them...


 Yes you are. You are very much buying into the hype. Pit Bulls are no more dangerous then any other breed of dog out there. There are bad apples in the breed like every other breed out there. Cane Corsos are a totally different breed then the APBT. CC's are guard dogs, while the APBT is not. Totally different temperaments.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> This is what we refer to as an irresponsible Pit Bull Owner. These owners are what gives the breed a bad name. Now would you think the same of this guy if he has a Lab? GSD? Standard Poodle? No? Welcome to breed stereotyping.
> 
> Yes you are. You are very much buying into the hype. Pit Bulls are no more dangerous then any other breed of dog out there. There are bad apples in the breed like every other breed out there. Cane Corsos are a totally different breed then the APBT. CC's are guard dogs, while the APBT is not. Totally different temperaments.


The owners I was talking about have their Pits ears cropped almost to the skull-- in the fighting crop-- that leads to breed stereo typing. Owners of labs standard poodles GSD's do not. 

My dog was injured by 2 Pit brothers. I know cause I was hanging out with the owner! My 12 yo dog has had a few skirmishes in her years, this was the only serious dog related injury she has ever had!
My first dog in the City was a Pit and we spent years trying to work with her dog aggression and it WAS NOT FUN. Please do not minimize how difficult these dogs can be in an urban environment if you dont have a yard and they must be walked in public. It is a serious responsibility.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Candydb said:


> The owners I was talking about have their Pits ears cropped almost to the skull-- in the fighting crop-- that leads to breed stereo typing. Owners of labs standard poodles GSD's do not.
> 
> My dog was injured by 2 Pit brothers. I know cause I was hanging out with the owner! My 12 yo dog has had a few skirmishes in her years, this was the only serious dog related injury she has ever had!
> My first dog in the City was a Pit and we spent years trying to work with her dog aggression and it WAS NOT FUN. Please do not minimize how difficult these dogs can be in an urban environment if you dont have a yard and they must be walked in public. It is a serious responsibility.


i have a dog aggressive pit. i live in an urban environment. takes no more work than any other medium to large drivey dog. owning ANY dog is a serious responsibility. singling out pit bulls is completely illogical.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i have a dog aggressive pit. i live in an urban environment. takes no more work than any other medium to large drivey dog. owning ANY dog is a serious responsibility. singling out pit bulls is completely illogical.


Here in this urban environment dogs that bite. And mine did. Are required to wear a muzzle at all times when out of your apartment. We did not and do not have a house with a yard for the dog to hang out in. She had to be walked in public or not walked at all( we did all sorts of back trails in the huge city park and on the beach at night-- do you know you can get skunked at night on a beach!) She was waaay more work than our 2 70-80lb Boxers or our Giant schnauzer that we have in the city( I have also had a Treeing Walker, a shepherd mix, a chow, an airedale, a dalmation, a golden retriever-- but these were not in urban environments, she was still more difficult than all of these...). For me the hardest part was her unpredictability-- never being able to trust her. It was like walking a tight rope never knowing if there was going to be a dog around the corner, passing by on the street. And I did not want her to spend her life in a muzzle....Its just not the breed for me.. They take a special person to own them....They are not for the average person.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Candydb said:


> Here in this urban environment dogs that bite. And mine did. Are required to wear a muzzle at all times when out of your apartment. We did not and do not have a house with a yard for the dog to hang out in. She had to be walked in public or not walked at all( we did all sorts of back trails in the huge city park and on the beach at night-- do you know you can get skunked at night on a beach!) She was waaay more work than our 2 70-80lb Boxers or our Giant schnauzer that we have in the city( I have also had a Treeing Walker, a shepherd mix, a chow, an airedale, a dalmation, a golden retriever-- but these were not in urban environments, she was still more difficult than all of these...). For me the hardest part was her unpredictability-- never being able to trust her. It was like walking a tight rope never knowing if there was going to be a dog around the corner, passing by on the street. And I did not want her to spend her life in a muzzle....Its just not the breed for me.. They take a special person to own them....They are not for the average person.


i have almost no yard. i walk her in public, without a muzzle and without worrying about it. it's just a matter of what type of training you use and how well you use it. 

all breeds take a certain kind of person to own, generally speaking. that's why there's no one size fits all breed. because different breeds suit different people differently. still not seeing any reason to single out pit bulls.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And not all pit bulls are DA like that. And not all DA dogs are pit bulls. I had a Lab who was exactly like that. Yeah, it wasn't fun worrying about whether another dog would be around, but it was manageable.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I have to side with Zim.

In the past I had a dog aggressive dog that I never walked with a muzzle. It took training, and time but he could walk past dogs no trouble. These dogs aren't "special" they are just dogs. You have extreme dogs like Zim's Bolo who would pick a fight for fun, then you have the other end of the spectrum which would be my Pit Bull Nubs, who HATES to fight, but won't back down from one. Nubs protected me once from a very aggressive Lab, and ended up killing that Lab. That night he was playing with his friends 2 Mini Pins, and tonight he plays with his best bud Peanut a rescued Pit Bull Puppy. 

You walking around with a tight leash and "expecting the worst" is going to cause you more trouble then good. I walk my Pit Bull who has been attacked multiple times by Labs, GSDs, and a Jack Russel and you know what all these dogs had in common? Bad owners. It's not the dogs fault it attacked us. It's the owners fault for letting their dogs run loose. Guess which dog has done the most damage to Nubs? The Jack Russel. It ripped his armpit open. 

I've been bitten by a Cattle Dog mix. Walked into my yard, and nailed me. Thankfully I had a thick coat on so it only left a bruise. It tore my coat up, so she would have done damage to me if it wasn't for that.

Pit Bulls aren't monsters, far from it. WE are the monsters. And yes you are playing very well into the media hype.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Candydb said:


> Here in this urban environment dogs that bite. And mine did. Are required to wear a muzzle at all times when out of your apartment. We did not and do not have a house with a yard for the dog to hang out in. She had to be walked in public or not walked at all( we did all sorts of back trails in the huge city park and on the beach at night-- do you know you can get skunked at night on a beach!) She was waaay more work than our 2 70-80lb Boxers or our Giant schnauzer that we have in the city( I have also had a Treeing Walker, a shepherd mix, a chow, an airedale, a dalmation, a golden retriever-- but these were not in urban environments, she was still more difficult than all of these...). For me the hardest part was her unpredictability-- never being able to trust her. It was like walking a tight rope never knowing if there was going to be a dog around the corner, passing by on the street. And I did not want her to spend her life in a muzzle....Its just not the breed for me.. They take a special person to own them....They are not for the average person.


In my life I've owned a Beagle, Malamutes, Labs, Pomeranians, an American Eskimo, Wolf hybrids, a Rat Terrier, various Shepherd mixes, and Great Danes mixes. My Pitbull has been hands down the easiest to handle in Urban Environments, both in public and on private properties. Charlotte's DA only seems to be triggered when confronted by an aggressive dog or one that shows threatening behavior, so we leash her when in the city for that reason, but we allow her to greet other dogs cautiously if the owner okays it.

Pitbulls aren't for everybody, no. But they aren't all wild neurotic beasts, even the ones that DO have DA.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

> Isnt there something about the way they lock their jaws -- or do all dogs do that when fully engaged in a full on bite?


MYTH! there is NO dog that locks it's jaws. The structure of a Pits skull is the same as any other dog, there for it cannot lock it's jaws. yo ureally needx t oget some facts and stop believing the lies the people out there that want to bann the breed are spreading. Here's a great place to start.

http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html


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## katG (Jun 27, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> MYTH! there is NO dog that locks it's jaws. The structure of a Pits skull is the same as any other dog, there for it cannot lock it's jaws. yo ureally needx t oget some facts and stop believing the lies the people out there that want to bann the breed are spreading. Here's a great place to start.
> 
> http://www.realpitbull.com/myths.html


I have a question about Pit Bull muscle structure in the jaw. I know that they do not lock and there are other breeds have a stronger bite. I remember seeing somewhere on TV (I think animal planet) a show about Pit Bulls where they said they do not lock, but the muscles wrap up farther towards the top of their head than a lot of other breeds? I think they had a diagram, and it was not an anti-Pit show. When you look at a Pit, they have those round muscles on the side of their faces that a lot of dogs don't have... is this a jaw muscle and does it have anything to do with bite strength?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

all dogs have that.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Trillian said:


> All dogs can resist their mouths being opened when they don't want it to be. My brother's chiwinnie can force her mouth closed with a fair amount of power when she wants to. Pit Bulls' jaw, to just be short and sweet, do NOT 'lock'.


Try getting my 14# dog's mouth open when he is in pain but needs the meds. I swear, he is part "pit" if jaw strength is what makes a Pit.

And I had a dog who was so lean, that when she was bitten on the thigh, there was no blood, just a whole. Took stitches and anti-b to treat it. So, the shoulder problem could very well have had been a bite that became abscessed.


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## koukennin (Jul 25, 2011)

Any dog has the equivalent of a mouthful of knives at their disposal, and people lose sight of that. Owning a dog is a serious responsibility, but a lot of people treat it more like picking up a new toy. I've heard parents tell kids who promise to take care of the puppy they want, "If you don't, we're going to get rid of it." With that kind of attitude, it's obvious that training isn't going to be their strong suit. Socialization takes work and time, and a lot of people think their back yard is the proper teacher. 

I think Pits are discriminated against because of the media hype around their sad history of being used for dog fighting. People need a label for something they fear. For terrorism it was bin Laden. For bully breeds the Pit Bulls got the short straw. I've also seen various mixes and other breeds thrown in as 'Pit Bulls' when an attack happens. Every Pit Bull I've ever seen has been very well behaved. Also, I think that people who buy Pit Bulls, in light of the media hype, are often people who think owning a strong, dangerous dog is cool, and people like that won't waste any energy trying to socialize their dog. These are the ones that swing sticks and encourage their dogs to be aggressive to people. There are a lot of causes, and I think very little of it has anything to do with the Pit Bull breed.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

Darkmoon said:


> I have to side with Zim.
> 
> Nubs protected me once from a very aggressive Lab, and ended up killing that Lab.
> 
> ...


Yikes...sounds like you've encountered TONS of aggressive dogs. I feel like if I had your experiences, I'd have reached the point where I'd see a dog (any dog) walking down the street and freeze up as if it were a wolf. I can't imagine encountering *that* many aggressive dogs!


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

For me it has to do with the amount of damage they do when they attack. One of my first patients was a little boy that had been attacked by a pit. It was horrendous, he barely survived and he wasn't entirely intact (neurologically or physically) after. I've seen attacks that were as severe by rotties, too... While this is just my own experience, it does allow for some significant prejudices on my part.



Sloth said:


> Yikes...sounds like you've encountered TONS of aggressive dogs. I feel like if I had your experiences, I'd have reached the point where I'd see a dog (any dog) walking down the street and freeze up as if it were a wolf. I can't imagine encountering *that* many aggressive dogs!


 That is extraordinarily impressive!


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Choosewisdom said:


> For me it has to do with the amount of damage they do when they attack. One of my first patients was a little boy that had been attacked by a pit. It was horrendous, he barely survived and he wasn't entirely intact (neurologically or physically) after. I've seen attacks that were as severe by rotties, too... While this is just my own experience, it does allow for some significant prejudices on my part.


You really don't think a golden retreiver or basically any medium-large breed dog could do the same damage? Because they can.


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> You really don't think a golden retreiver or basically any medium-large breed dog could do the same damage? Because they can.


Absolutely, they CAN, but what I have seen myself (so my anecdotal evidence) is that other breeds may bite, but dead kids, kids that end up in PICU... That has every.single.time. Been a pit or rottie. I have a dear friend that owns the sweetest rottie and my GD was playing with a pit puppy in the park, but I would never own one because of my experiences at work.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Choosewisdom said:


> Absolutely, they CAN, but what I have seen myself (so my anecdotal evidence) is that other breeds may bite, but dead kids, kids that end up in PICU... That has every.single.time. Been a pit or rottie. I have a dear friend that owns the sweetest rottie and my GD was playing with a pit puppy in the park, but I would never own one because of my experiences at work.


and i and my child would both be *dead* if it _wasnt_ for the pit bull that saved my life on multiple occasions and my son's life in a completely different scenario. personal experience is only a sampling. others will have wildly different personal experiences.

oh yeah...my mom is missing part of her hand because of a nasty as hell retriever. again...i think you see my point...


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> and i and my child would both be *dead* if it _wasnt_ for the pit bull that saved my life on multiple occasions and my son's life in a completely different scenario. personal experience is only a sampling. others will have wildly different personal experiences.
> 
> oh yeah...my mom is missing part of her hand because of a nasty as hell retriever. again...i think you see my point...


The original question was, "Why are pit bulls so discriminated against?" I was offering my experiences as to why I, personally, discriminate against the breed. I realize I am discriminating, and stated my personal experiences. Well, and you kind of supported what I was saying, your mom is missing part of a hand. I was talking about kids missing portions of their brains, large portions of vascular systems, a jaw, entire arms, etc. I could go into detail, but I'm sure others would prefer to keep their dinner.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Choosewisdom said:


> The original question was, "Why are pit bulls so discriminated against?" I was offering my experiences as to why I, personally, discriminate against the breed. I realize I am discriminating, and stated my personal experiences. Well, and you kind of supported what I was saying, your mom is missing part of a hand. I was talking about kids missing portions of their brains, large portions of vascular systems, a jaw, entire arms, etc. I could go into detail, but I'm sure others would prefer to keep their dinner.


and there are tons of people who owe their lives to pit bulls. my point..is that your basis for discrimination is illogical. they are no more or no less dangerous than any other dog.

they are just more populous. there are waaaaaaaaaaay more pit bulls out there in nasty situations being treated like garbage which cause them to end up biting people than any other breed. that's documented. i dunno...i tend to respect objective facts more than i do subjective bias. Im sure you've seen some horrible stuff. so have i. your experiences have been with pit bulls. mine have been with pit bulls as the victims.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Choosewisdom said:


> The original question was, "Why are pit bulls so discriminated against?" I was offering my experiences as to why I, personally, discriminate against the breed. I realize I am discriminating, and stated my personal experiences. Well, and you kind of supported what I was saying, your mom is missing part of a hand. I was talking about kids missing portions of their brains, large portions of vascular systems, a jaw, entire arms, etc. I could go into detail, but I'm sure others would prefer to keep their dinner.


A Pit stopped two GSDs from taking my arm and maybe worse. What terrible creatures.

ETA: My own Dachshund nearly blinded me.


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> and there are tons of people who owe their lives to pit bulls. my point..is that your basis for discrimination is illogical. they are no more or no less dangerous than any other dog.
> 
> they are just more populous. there are waaaaaaaaaaay more pit bulls out there in nasty situations being treated like garbage which cause them to end up biting people than any other breed. that's documented. i dunno...i tend to respect objective facts more than i do subjective bias. Im sure you've seen some horrible stuff. so have i. your experiences have been with pit bulls. mine have been with pit bulls as the victims


Me too! Feel free to share some objective facts. I shared
Experiences, you shared experiences. Fact: more than 60% of fatal dog attacks are by pit bulls. I'll share the article from the medical journal where I read that when I return home from vacation.


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## TheBearCat (Jun 5, 2010)

Of those 60% how many are _actually _pit bulls?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Choosewisdom said:


> Me too! Feel free to share some objective facts. I shared
> Experiences, you shared experiences. Fact: more than 60% of fatal dog attacks are by pit bulls. I'll share the article from the medical journal where I read that when I return home from vacation.


Well, probably 60% of the medium/large dogs in the U.S. are pit bulls. It's all about numbers, really. And the media VERY frequently misidentifies dogs involved in bite incidents as pit bulls, even when it's completely obvious to anyone who knows anything about dogs that they're not. 

Anyway, you came to the right place! Some people here collect this kind of info. I'm sure you'll be sufficiently fact-ified .


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

TheBearCat said:


> Of those 60% how many are _actually _pit bulls?


Ding ding ding.

This is the same crap we already squabbled over, I think even in this thread. If you don't like Pits, great, don't own one and don't even look at them if you don't like, but keep your laws the hell away from them.


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Ding ding ding.
> 
> This is the same crap we already squabbled over, I think even in this thread. If you don't like Pits, great, don't own one and don't even look at them if you don't like, but keep your laws the hell away from them.


 Wow, once again, I answered a question. I fully think that the problem is with the owner 95% of the time. You know nothing about me, but I have very strong feelings against the government passing laws that tell me what to do, and I would not support a law restricting the responsible ownership and breeding of any animal. So, if you realize you have no objective facts to share dont share or respond. If you do, feel free. You brought up facts and then started cussing. Ok, you certainly fit the stereotype for a Pit owner. 

Oh, and in regards to the article, it is very interesting, and offers discussion at length about misrepresentation of the attackers breed by witnesses. Actually, even more than 75% are claimed to be Pit bulls. Can't wait to share, and read information offered here. That is why I am here, to learn. I have not owned many dogs and want to know all that I can so my baby can live a long, healthy life.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Choosewisdom said:


> Wow, once again, I answered a question. I fully think that the problem is with the owner 95% of the time. You know nothing about me, but I have very strong feelings against the government passing laws that tell me what to do, and I would not support a law restricting the responsible ownership and breeding of any animal. So, if you realize you have no objective facts to share dont share or respond. If you do, feel free. You brought up facts and then started cussing. Ok, you certainly fit the stereotype for a Pit owner.
> 
> Oh, and in regards to the article, it is very interesting, and offers discussion at length about misrepresentation of the attackers breed by witnesses. Actually, even more than 75% are claimed to be Pit bulls. Can't wait to share, and read information offered here. That is why I am here, to learn. I have not owned many dogs and want to know all that I can so my baby can live a long, healthy life.


I don't think I presumed to know any thing about you. I didn't even address you at all. I said what my point was for this thread and all 80 billion of them that come up on DF all the time. 

It's interesting you would get defensive when you thought I insinuated any thing about you, but would insult Pit owners and call me the stereotypical owner because I.. told you facts? Not that that makes any sense, but I hate to burst your bubble. I am not a Pit owner.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Choosewisdom said:


> Me too! Feel free to share some objective facts. I shared
> Experiences, you shared experiences. Fact: more than 60% of fatal dog attacks are by pit bulls. I'll share the article from the medical journal where I read that when I return home from vacation.



dog bites and bite statistics and how they get skewed.


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Well, probably 60% of the medium/large dogs in the U.S. are pit bulls. It's all about numbers, really. And the media VERY frequently misidentifies dogs involved in bite incidents as pit bulls, even when it's completely obvious to anyone who knows anything about dogs that they're not.
> 
> Anyway, you came to the right place! Some people here collect this kind of info. I'm sure you'll be sufficiently fact-ified .


 I didnt know the percentage of pit bulls was that great. I'm sure it varies greatly from region to region, so maybe that is why I hadn't seen that where I live. I am really excited to learn. I really just responded with the reason I feel the way I do, much like any other prejudice or belief, it is very personal. I didn't expect to have someone respond with remarks that were said or ask for facts after I stated clearly it was what caused my prejudice. I have already read a lot of information that I never knew, and look forward to learning more.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Choosewisdom said:


> Me too! Feel free to share some objective facts. I shared
> Experiences, you shared experiences. Fact: more than 60% of fatal dog attacks are by pit bulls. I'll share the article from the medical journal where I read that when I return home from vacation.


BUT what is a "Pit Bull" Here again, no one can really say what a "Pit Bull" is. What a common person thinks of a "Pit Bull" isn't really a REAL American Pit Bull Terrier. "Pit Bull" is a grouping of many different dogs and dog breeds that resemble a similar "look" meaning, yes, "Pit Bulls" may cause more fatal dog attacks, but if you actually break it down by REAL breeds, then they are no more deadly then the next breed. Don't give into propaganda. I've seen dogs that were really German Shepherds labeled as "Pit Bull mix" when it was far from it. Most Lab attacks are labeled as "Pit Bulls" because Labs and APBTs have a very similar looking head. 

Want proof? Take my puppy that I rescued:









According to my dad, this is a Lab mix. He is 100% convinced that she is a Lab mix, or mostly Lab. Anyone that's in the breed can tell you she's some sort of Pit Bull mix. 

Another dog: 









I've had a number of people tell me that he's a BOXER, not a mix, but a BOXER. I could understand Bulldog mix, but NOT a Boxer. He's registered with the UKC as a American Pit Bull Terrier.

This is why Pit Bulls have such a bad rap. EVERYONE has a "Pit Bull", the more you have of something, the more likely you are going to have bad eggs. These dogs are known to be owned by irresponsible people. 

I welcome you if you are EVER in Michigan, to stop in and meet my Pits. I welcome you to stop into any UKC dog show and meet the Pit Bulls there. I am not joking. Come meet some Pit Bulls owned by responsible people. You'll change your mind on the breed. I will not say that there aren't dangerous dogs in the breed, there are. The thing is, even a dog that could be dangerous in the right hands isn't a danger to the general public.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm only guessing on the number of pit bulls. Nobody can say for sure, because only a very small percentage of them are registered. But it seems like a good guess. In some places almost all the not-small dogs are pit bulls. So I wouldn't be surprised.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

another pit bull..pure...to add to Darkmoon's point


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> BUT what is a "Pit Bull" Here again, no one can really say what a "Pit Bull" is. What a common person thinks of a "Pit Bull" isn't really a REAL American Pit Bull Terrier. "Pit Bull" is a grouping of many different dogs and dog breeds that resemble a similar "look" meaning, yes, "Pit Bulls" may cause more fatal dog attacks, but if you actually break it down by REAL breeds, then they are no more deadly then the next breed. Don't give into propaganda. I've seen dogs that were really German Shepherds labeled as "Pit Bull mix" when it was far from it. Most Lab attacks are labeled as "Pit Bulls" because Labs and APBTs have a very similar looking head.
> 
> Want proof? Take my puppy that I rescued:
> 
> ...


We are planning a few trips to dog shows. We just rescued our GD recently and hope to learn more and see a show. We have a cabin in the UP. I love it up there, we can only go about twice a year with my husbands travel schedule at work, and having to work around busy times in my unit, but it is my favorite. Maybe sometime we can stop in and meet your babies.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Cindy, not to mention every one at the salon thought Peanut was a Lab mix. They kept telling people we had a Lab mix there and I kept saying "No, we have a Pit puppy here." 

And I really need to upload the new photos because he is SO MUCH BIGGER now, but don't forget Clove is a Pit according to EVERY ONE who doesn't realize he.. is not:


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

He doesn't look Pittish to me at all. Muttish, but not Pittish xD


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Cindy, not to mention every one at the salon thought Peanut was a Lab mix. They kept telling people we had a Lab mix there and I kept saying "No, we have a Pit puppy here."
> 
> And I really need to upload the new photos because he is SO MUCH BIGGER now, but don't forget Clove is a Pit according to EVERY ONE who doesn't realize he.. is not:


yeah most people would be like WTF to learn that Clove there...is a type of HUSKY.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

A woman at the vet last Wednesday with TWO Pits said "Oh he's beautiful! Pit and what else?" 

It's really hard explaining the Alaskan bit to people. Like, stupid hard.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Then again, Nekomi doesn't know who the pups' father was, and sometimes bully breeds are added to the Alaskan Husky mix. So maybe a little. He's so handsome.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Clove's Mom Linney. She's an alaskan husky. which is a working husky type. they come from husky, greyhound, sometimes lab and every once in a while a little bully(not necessarily pit bull) stock. 

she does know that his dad was more than likely another alaskan husky considering where she was when she got pregnant.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Judging by the fact he's now 8 months old and 70 lbs and growing, I sincerely doubt there is any Pit floating around. That photo of him is unfortunately old. He's considerably taller than even Jack now.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Choosewisdom said:


> Wow, once again, I answered a question. I fully think that the problem is with the owner 95% of the time. You know nothing about me, but I have very strong feelings against the government passing laws that tell me what to do, and I would not support a law restricting the responsible ownership and breeding of any animal. So, if you realize you have no objective facts to share dont share or respond. If you do, feel free. You brought up facts and then started cussing. Ok, you certainly fit the stereotype for a Pit owner.
> .


Guess I fit it too if all we have to do is state facts and cuss... guess my dog being both a therapy dog and CGC awarded means nothing if I cuss... BTW, TWAB doesn't even OWN a pitbull. 


I want to add that EVERYONE comes up to us and tells us what a pretty LAB we have when we take jetta out. Because 47 pounds of pibble looks like a lab. ><

People around here are just too used to seeing a 'bully pit' or whatever they call them.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Choosewisdom said:


> Absolutely, they CAN, but what I have seen myself (so my anecdotal evidence) is that other breeds may bite, but dead kids, kids that end up in PICU... That has every.single.time. Been a pit or rottie. I have a dear friend that owns the sweetest rottie and my GD was playing with a pit puppy in the park, but I would never own one because of my experiences at work.


Or the dogs have been misidentified by the victim or witnesses, most people don't know one mollosor breed from another. I've had people misidentify my English Mastiff as a Pit, I've had people ask if my Dobe was a Rottweiler and I've seen people misidentify Boxers, Shar pei and Dogue de Bordeux as Pits as well.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I've said this here before, but I've had multiple occasions where people have mistaken my PUG for a Pit Bull!


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Or the dogs have been misidentified by the victim or witnesses, most people don't know one mollosor breed from another. I've had people misidentify my English Mastiff as a Pit, I've had people ask if my Dobe was a Rottweiler and I've seen people misidentify Boxers, Shar pei and Dogue de Bordeux as Pits as well.


Not unless they were sold fake Papers and dogs from the breeders. In the last 4 years we have only had one kid come to the unit that the dog was not the family dog. So, the breed was identified absolutely by the family. We did have one woman try to lie about the breed because she thought it was more likely that her dog would be put down if she said it was a pit. There was a huge fight between the family in the waiting area and she finally identified the dog responsible. Not that it mattered to us other than collection of scientific data and ensuring the offending dog wasn't carrying any illness, etc.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Or the dogs have been misidentified by the victim or witnesses, most people don't know one mollosor breed from another. I've had people misidentify my English Mastiff as a Pit, I've had people ask if my Dobe was a Rottweiler and I've seen people misidentify Boxers, Shar pei and Dogue de Bordeux as Pits as well.


Don't ya know that Uallis is a Boxer? He could probably set a record for being the biggest, heaviest Boxer ever. He's also a Shar Pei and a Great Dane.


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

Trillian said:


> Guess I fit it too if all we have to do is state facts and cuss...


I should have been much more clear with my language seeing as how my answering a question honestly about how my own personal prejudices were formed turned into all that it did. I meant she said we should stick to facts and then decided she decided against sharing the facts she asked to compare. I really, truly thought the intent of the question was to ascertain how the opinions are formed. I forget that I am on a board with mixed backgrounds and that not everyone is on here with the pure intent of understanding. I have little knowledge of the raising of dogs, but had knowledge of how my prejudice was formed. I shared because I thought that was the purpose.

I thought her response was very funny and responded with a quip that was probably not taken in the way that it was meant... To point out that stereotypes and prejudices usually have some minute basis in fact from a singular incident/experience. Anyway, I really am reading and learning a lot about the breed and stand by my belief that I have a prejudice against the breed that has been caused by a lot of irresponsible owners. 



Kuma'sMom said:


> I've said this here before, but I've had multiple occasions where people have mistaken my PUG for a Pit Bull!


Hahahaha, that actually made me LOL. My poor husband thinks I have lost my mind.  I have only ever seen one pug bite, and it required two sutures to a tiny hand that got nipped.

Also, my prejudice against dogs isn't the only thing I have picked up from my profession: my daughter is not allowed on motorcycles, children are to always be supervised around the tiniest bit of water, I assume that everything will form incorrectly in utero, etc. )


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Choosewisdom said:


> Not unless they were sold fake Papers and dogs from the breeders. In the last 4 years we have only had one kid come to the unit that the dog was not the family dog. So, the breed was identified absolutely by the family. We did have one woman try to lie about the breed because she thought it was more likely that her dog would be put down if she said it was a pit. There was a huge fight between the family in the waiting area and she finally identified the dog responsible. Not that it mattered to us other than collection of scientific data and ensuring the offending dog wasn't carrying any illness, etc.


You can continue to argue with everyone, and everyone can continue to argue with you. However, what you are talking about is peronal experience and there will ALWAYS be people to argue with you about it. 

Maybe that's an issue here and everywhere it's not the DOG but the breeding of the dog. IMHO any dog that turns on it's owners/family while being properly raised is mentally unstable and needs to be put down. So maybe where you live there is just a shortage or properly raised, properly tempered dogs.


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

Trillian said:


> You can continue to argue with everyone, and everyone can continue to argue with you. However, what you are talking about is peronal experience and there will ALWAYS be people to argue with you about it.


I am not arguing, I honestly was giving an opinion on how a prejudice can be formed. I felt safe stating how mine was formed because I know it is a prejudice, I realize there are wonderful individuals of this breed, but I could still never own one. I am sure there are people that would never want to own a GD, and there are people that believe that children that are not punished with a belt or other physical punishment can not be good kids but I love my Dane and have a wonderful, brilliant kid that would show otherwise. I was beyond excited to find this forum and share my love of dogs. I am quite sorry that I chose to share my answer to this question on this board. I went to most recent and this was the first listing there. This has been beyond ludicrous and has even gone past my point of finding humour, which is quite difficult to do under even the most difficult of circumstances. Perhaps I will see the humor again after I finish my task at hand.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wrong Choosewisdom. i posted a link for you. you ignored and then accuse me of backing out of listing facts?

shaaaadddyyy...


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> wrong Choosewisdom. i posted a link for you. you ignored and then accuse me of backing out of listing facts?
> 
> shaaaadddyyy...


I am traveling and reading on my iPhone. If I missed a link I sincerely apologize. I saw no link, but I will return to the page and find it... I certainly want to learn about other breeds because we plan to rescue another dog after our puppy has completed a few levels of obedience training.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> dog bites and bite statistics and how they get skewed.


 Oh, this I see it now. I know how statistics work. Had that class  The problems I am talking about are fatalities, not my dog scratched a kid and it counts as a dog bite. Also, this has zero to do with how my prejudice was formed or how I obtained the anecdotal evidence that formed my opinion. Just as someone who had a pit that saved their family would never be convinced by hearing about all of the awful things I see that turn my stomach toward the breed. Fatalities are not bites, and what is legally considered a bite is not the same as cases reported in medical literature for study and discussion.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Choosewisdom said:


> This has been beyond ludicrous and has even gone past my point of finding humour, which is quite difficult to do under even the most difficult of circumstances. Perhaps I will see the humor again after I finish my task at hand.


And what is your task at hand? I'm not trying to be rude or snappy or 'aggressive' in this thread. But some of us take these things like protecting our favorite breed from people who just want to hate, very seriously. 

Every comment you make seems to be defended as 'trying to be humorous' but I honestly don't see the joking in it and a smily face at the end doesn't make it any more funny or light hearted then not having one. You can not own a bully, and really if you're THIS set agianst them I hope you never do. But to ignore things that people are trying to educate you with and then to say things like 'fitting into the perfect stereotype' to people you don't even know is rude. The people who raise and train their bullies RIGHT (or at least the ones I know very personally) try very hard to prove that it doesn't matter what the hell you look like on the outside but how you raise and treat your dog.


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## Choosewisdom (Jul 27, 2011)

Trillian said:


> And what is your task at hand? I'm not trying to be rude or snappy or 'aggressive' in this thread. But some of us take these things like protecting our favorite breed from people who just want to hate, very seriously.
> 
> Every comment you make seems to be defended as 'trying to be humorous' but I honestly don't see the joking in it and a smily face at the end doesn't make it any more funny or light hearted then not having one. You can not own a bully, and really if you're THIS set agianst them I hope you never do. But to ignore things that people are trying to educate you with and then to say things like 'fitting into the perfect stereotype' to people you don't even know is rude. The people who raise and train their bullies RIGHT (or at least the ones I know very personally) try very hard to prove that it doesn't matter what the hell you look like on the outside but how you raise and treat your dog.


It was a bit rude, but not Said with malice. I was laughing about how silly that I was on here stating a reason that I may be seen as discriminating when she goes off about changing laws. Everyone else had been defending the breed on the page so it felt a little odd. I am very light-hearted, that certainly may not convey well over text. As far as my task at hand, I am writing a rough draft for an article. It is a bit of a taxing subject, so I keep putting the notebook down and reading forums on my phone. Not sure why it mattered but there you go.


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## Alanius (Jul 28, 2011)

Because people think that they're dangerous. If you guys think careful you don't hear about a pitty on the news doing good deeds what a great story on the newspaper that would be. However those reporter will only want to find pitty that have hurt-en people if u get what i mean. Mainly because it is able to kill us with it's jaw lock. But do they really jaw lock? If you guys understand what i mean is here an example:

Pitbull kills ...blah blah. Of course they're going to put it on the news. There not gonna put anything nice on the news. Remember they're being bias - bias is when your point of view is not equal and that you are either on there side or the other side.

Pitbulls are great and awesome dogs. I've never own them but in the past I've met 3 pittys. One pitty followed a mate of mine and he came to my house with it. It did not attack us it was lost. As we tried to take him out of my house we walk down my street. The pitty even followed us and got hit by a car.. Indeed sad but atleast he was still alive and his owner found him. I would be sad and very scared for the owner. Because people say this dog is dangerous. When you think about it you don't know what this dog can do when it goes missing. But i guess this dog was treated-well and was very kind to humans. Such as me and my mates.

2nd Pitty. Was my mates pitty Medusa. It was still young but big still. I'd love to play with it. I threw a ball once and it went and fetch it and brought it back to me to throw again. I was very surprised, as my dog cannot do that. My dog would of took the ball and lay there biting on it and did not bring the ball back. It shows how intelligent this dog was. I don't think the dog like its owner, one time when i came over to his house, I saw medusa sneak out, I called it to come back and it immediately came back to me. I guess the dog knew who i was and wanted to play with me. Unfortunately the dog messed up and was sent away. Poor fella. It was an amazing dog. Oh yeah i use to run back and foward with this dog and it will jump in the air and try to bite me. I think he was trying to bite me as i see his teeth trying to get me. It never attacked me. But we had fun and i think it understand when we played.

The third pitty. Mishka. It was a puppy, and wasn't like the pitty above. This one was a puppy. It like to bite on my shoe lace a lot. Can't remember much but I'd visit this dog a lot as the dog's owner was the same as Medusa. Apparently this dog liked me that what the owner said. Haven't seen it in a long time maybe couple of months lets say since March or April. I reckon it be bigger than before and i doubt it still remember who i am. It might just bark at me and attack me.

Anyways as I said i met 3 pittys and i think they're a great guard dog. Actually i met four pittys. The fourth pitty is a full grown one and a female. This dog is amazing, as it listen to the owner very well. This owner told me if u keep talking to it, it will listen to you always. I seen the proof, whenever I'm inside this owner house and when the owner does not want this dog, he will tell the female pitty to get out, get lost, go away and it will leave and go outside. 

- I have not read the first post of this forum and just read the title and wanted to have a say in this.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Choosewisdom said:


> Not unless they were sold fake Papers and dogs from the breeders. In the last 4 years we have only had one kid come to the unit that the dog was not the family dog. So, the breed was identified absolutely by the family. We did have one woman try to lie about the breed because she thought it was more likely that her dog would be put down if she said it was a pit. There was a huge fight between the family in the waiting area and she finally identified the dog responsible. Not that it mattered to us other than collection of scientific data and ensuring the offending dog wasn't carrying any illness, etc.


I'm talking about people coming up to ME on the street and and saying what a nice Pit Bull I have when I'm walking a 200lb English Mastiff.



Alanius said:


> Because people think that they're dangerous. If you guys think careful you don't hear about a pitty on the news doing good deeds what a great story on the newspaper that would be. However those reporter will only want to find pitty that have hurt-en people if u get what i mean. Mainly because it is able to kill us with it's jaw lock. But do they really jaw lock? If you guys understand what i mean is here an example:


Actually ther have been a NUMBER of stories recently that were positive about Pitts


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Choosewisdom said:


> Not unless they were sold fake Papers and dogs from the breeders. In the last 4 years we have only had one kid come to the unit that the dog was not the family dog. So, the breed was identified absolutely by the family. We did have one woman try to lie about the breed because she thought it was more likely that her dog would be put down if she said it was a pit. There was a huge fight between the family in the waiting area and she finally identified the dog responsible. Not that it mattered to us other than collection of scientific data and ensuring the offending dog wasn't carrying any illness, etc.


I don't think you know much about the "Pit Bull" breeds from this statement alone. I'm also guessing you've never heard about the breed "American Bully" which is now a separate breed from the American Pit Bull Terrier and is what most people think of "Pit Bulls" when they think about the breed. This breed still says "American Pit Bull Terrier" oh it's paperwork, because it came from the breed. They aren't APBTers anymore. I've had people sit there and argue with me about their dog, only to take a look at an "American Bully" and go "Oh! I guess you are right" Yes they CAN still say APBT on their UKC/ADBA paperwork but they no longer are. It's an issue we are having and one of the main reasons why the UKC closed it's books on the breed.

Also no one walks up to you and asks for paperwork. Not even police officers. They only go by what they "saw". If it even LOOKS like what people think of when they think of "pit bulls", then it HAS to be a pit bull. Take a look at this photo:

Pit Bull right? Wrong. The shelter knew his parents, they were a Lab and Boxer. Had he bitten someone, he would have been labeled as a Pit Bull, people don't care about papers when it comes to attacks. 

I think you really should learn more about the breeds that are labeled under the generic "Pit Bull" label. They really aren't bad. With Carter (pictured above) I had a lot of issues with him and ended up researching the breed and knowing that the breed was perfect for me. American Pit Bull Terriers are loyal, strong, stubborn, bullheads, are very people friendly, agile, and have a STRONG will to please. It's not the breed, it's the owner.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Choosewisdom said:


> It was a bit rude, but not Said with malice. I was laughing about how silly that I was on here stating a reason that I may be seen as discriminating when she goes off about changing laws. Everyone else had been defending the breed on the page so it felt a little odd. I am very light-hearted, that certainly may not convey well over text. As far as my task at hand, I am writing a rough draft for an article. It is a bit of a taxing subject, so I keep putting the notebook down and reading forums on my phone. Not sure why it mattered but there you go.


Are you seriously still talking about me when I already responded to you and you NEVER even responded back? If you're willing to learn, then the first thing you need to learn is that no one gives a care if you don't like a certain dog. They care about people with ridiculous prejudices 1. Saying things that aren't true about their dogs and 2. Being any part of voting for BSL. Now move along for crying out loud.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i dunno...i wonder how much of the medical literature details relevant information about the dogs in question...housing, diet, medical condition, altered status, methods and levels of training, rehoming history....which...are not really a result of an animal's breeding and all play into not only why a dog bites but _how_. dont bother linking, i can pull it up myself.

you didnt look through the link beyond the first few pages did you? there's quite a bit there...including a downloadable free book by Karen Delise. it doesnt really make sense for me to link each individual bit when theyre all on the same site. ill link you to several other sources later when im off work.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Inga said:


> I have worked with a HUGE amount of Pit Bulls in rescue. The truth is that Yes, there is an instinct to fight with other dogs. Now, does that mean that every single one of them has it? No. Does it mean that a dog that is normally nice with NEVER become aggressive with other dogs? No. Each breed of dog is bred for a reason. The original purpose to Pit Bulls was as a blood sport dog. They were not bred to be human aggressive at any point. I think that people who chose to own a Pit Bull need to be responsible and that will mean not assuming their dog is friendly with other dogs.
> 
> When Spicy or Zim show up, they will probably post further on this. Owning a dog is a responsibility but owning a Pit Bull, Rottweiler, Doberman, GSD or any of the other "dangerous breeds" (that term annoys me by the way) is even more of a responsibility. We responsible owners of those breeds do not have the luxury of being lax at any point.
> 
> ...


 
This is all so true. And I just have to say this....does it mean my dog is 3x as dangerous because it is Dobe/Rott/Shep mixed! No! It is the responsible ownership that counts.
Unfortunately in some places not too many miles from where I live the poor Pitt is being used as a fighter and also a lot of byb's and a statement of prestige amongs certain members of certain clubs, putting it mildly. There were 2 cases last year of Pitt Bulls killing children. I am sure these are the doings of all the wrong people with all the wrongly trained dogs.
My very first dog of my own was a Doberman and it was 1976. I trained him as a guard dog. But he never bit a single person. It is all in responsible ownership and training.

Is there not something different with the power of pressure that a Pitt Bull's jaw has that is so lethal if he bites?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> Is there not something different with the power of pressure that a Pitt Bull's jaw has that is so lethal if he bites?


There is not. A pit bull's bite is no more lethal than the bite of any dog that size. And it's pit bull. One t .


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step sister ....She also works as nurse in an ER...she has the same prejudice against Pit Bulls due to injuries that she has seen in the ER
My question to her was does that prejudice carry over into everything you witness in the ER?...you see the worst of the worst every day because of your job...but is that a true representative of the whole picture?

example I brought up to her.....you interact with rape victims and domestic assault victims regularly ....an over whelming number of those crimes are committed by men ....do you think that all men are dangerous violent people? ready to rape and hit at any moment? ...is what you see from those interactions a true picture of a whole gender?


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Willowy said:


> There is not. A pit bull's bite is no more lethal than the bite of any dog that size. And it's pit bull. One t
> 
> Sorry....one "T',....I must watch too much animal planet! LOL!


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

pugmom said:


> This reminds me of a conversation I had with my step sister ....She also works as nurse in an ER...she has the same prejudice against Pit Bulls due to injuries that she has seen in the ER
> My question to her was does that prejudice carry over into everything you witness in the ER?...you see the worst of the worst every day because of your job...but is that a true representative of the whole picture?
> 
> example I brought up to her.....you interact with rape victims and domestic assault victims regularly ....an over whelming number of those crimes are committed by men ....do you think that all men are dangerous violent people? ready to rape and hit at any moment? ...is what you see from those interactions a true picture of a whole gender?


I'm curious to know what her answer was. And you made a very valid point...just because one/a few [___-insert animal, person etc] does it, does that mean all will?


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

There is a guy on youtube who has posted news articles/clips of pretty much every fatal/severe dog attack in America. Attacks done by NOT Pitbulls. Goldens, Labs, Greyhounds, Poodles, and so on and so forth with very graphic/gory images. I can assure you, Pitbulls aren't the only dogs in this world who can and have killed/hideously disfigured human life.


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## koukennin (Jul 25, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> and there are tons of people who owe their lives to pit bulls. my point..is that your basis for discrimination is illogical. they are no more or no less dangerous than any other dog.


That depends largely on how you quantify the threat level of a particular dog, but I still agree with you. Pit Bulls have good temperaments compared with many other breeds, and aren't any more dangerous than any other from that standpoint. In terms of ability, Pit Bulls are simply stronger than many other breeds, and not as strong as others. If you were to base their threat level solely on physical power and bite force, Pit Bulls would score pretty high, but that would be like saying a strong human was threatening, just for being strong. Then you could also include agility and speed, both of which are instrumental in raising threat levels, and so you'd have to declare that Border Collies were dangerous dogs. Honestly, there are (IMO), too many variables to declare a given dog breed as inherently dangerous, and to do so seems irresponsible. The worst bite I ever suffered in my life was from a sheep dog puppy who didn't realize the butt hanging down off the playground equipment wasn't a toy. That doesn't make sheep dogs (any of them) vicious or more dangerous. It just meant that I had a sore butt for awhile.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

koukennin said:


> That depends largely on how you quantify the threat level of a particular dog. In terms of temperament, I'll agree with you. Pit Bulls have good temperaments compared with many other breeds, and aren't any more dangerous than any other. In terms of ability, Pit Bulls are simply stronger than many other breeds, and not as strong as others. If you were to base their threat level solely on physical power and bite force, Pit Bulls would score pretty high, but that would be like saying a strong human was threatening, just for being strong. Honestly, there are (IMO), too many variables to declare a given dog breed as inherently dangerous, and to do so seems irresponsible. The worst bite I ever suffered in my life was from a sheep dog puppy who didn't realize the butt hanging down off the playground equipment wasn't a toy. That doesn't make sheep dogs (any of them) vicious or more dangerous. It just meant that I had a sore butt for awhile.


no more and NO LESS dangerous...as i said..


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## koukennin (Jul 25, 2011)

Choosewisdom said:


> Also, my prejudice against dogs isn't the only thing I have picked up from my profession: my daughter is not allowed on motorcycles, children are to always be supervised around the tiniest bit of water, I assume that everything will form incorrectly in utero, etc. )


I'm wondering at the choice of your username, "Choosewisdom". You freely admit to a prejudice against dogs, which by definition isn't based on wisdom. The other bits you included are just common sense. I'd keep my kids off motorcycles until they were adults (and I couldn't anymore), and it's hopefully common sense not to leave children alone around water. In any case, good for you on both counts. I'd advise you to spend time around Pit Bulls (since that's the breed in question here) that are owned by responsible people. You might find some at dog parks. These tend to be led by responsible owners, as is evidenced by the lack of dog fights and blood at the dog park. I've seen many Pits at dog parks, and a few in the pet supply stores, and they've always been fun to give a quick pet (with owner's consent). The Pit Bull's face always seems like it's smiling.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> I'm curious to know what her answer was. And you made a very valid point...just because one/a few [___-insert animal, person etc] does it, does that mean all will?


Being as I have the same sister and have had similar conversations I can tell you what her answer most likely was.

She doesn't care what you tell her. She sees what she sees, hears pit bull (which BTW are banned in the county she works in) and that's that. She's CONVINCED that no matter what eventually they can "turn on you" and no amount of facts or history on the breed is going to change her mind.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

pittsabowawa said:


> Being as I have the same sister and have had similar conversations I can tell you what her answer most likely was.
> 
> She doesn't care what you tell her. She sees what she sees, hears pit bull (which BTW are banned in the county she works in) and that's that. She's CONVINCED that no matter what eventually they can "turn on you" and no amount of facts or history on the breed is going to change her mind.


maybe when Isis lives to a ripe old age and passes quietly without ever tearing anyone's throat out? hope?


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## koukennin (Jul 25, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no more and NO LESS dangerous...as i said..


I wasn't arguing the statement - only adding in some of the reasons people tend to draw conclusions about 'dangerous' dogs. I agree with you completely. It doesn't matter if your dog could bite through a car - if they are socialized properly. What they _could _do is not what they necessarily _will _do. Any of my dogs could easily take off several of my fingers any time I reach out to them, but I still have all 10 and am not fearing the loss of any.

Edit - The 'bite through a car' remark was facetious. I don't mean to say that any dog could actually do this.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

koukennin said:


> I wasn't arguing the statement - only adding in some of the reasons people tend to draw conclusions about 'dangerous' dogs. I agree with you completely. It doesn't matter if your dog could bite through a car - if they are socialized properly. What they _could _do is not what they necessarily _will _do. Any of my dogs could easily take off several of my fingers any time I reach out to them, but I still have all 10 and am not fearing the loss of any.


dats cool man..


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

One would hope. Unfortunately she's never had the great fortune of meeting Isis. She loved Bella... but to her Bella is a Boxer and nothing else and since her husband likes Boxers they must be ok. Wonder what she'll say when I finally get my Pit Bull.

Although... this does look like the face of a true born killer. The only thing she kills is your will to say "no you may not have some of my dinner".


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Harking back to the thread about the guy who wants to adopt a dog labeled as "Pit bull" and cannot unless he is willing to move d/t the insurance issues on his place of residence... I feel badly about all the discrimination. It should not stand in the way of a person and his Dog, really. That is just sad that a Dog may not get to be with a person it loves and vice versa b/c of all this hype.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Sadly, Candydb, that is extremely common and a LOT of people around here don't want to put in the effort to find places to live that will allow them. So here you find a lot of "OMG D: I love her SOOOOO much but I'm moving in a week and can't take her with me...she needs to be gone NOOOOW.....but you must pay me XXXX amount of money for the PRIVILEGE of taking my dog!" It's just SO easy for people to get rid of their dogs and not TRY (cause trying is too hard ><) but to me, if I go, my dogs go, no if ands or butts.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Holy crap, I never knew you two were related!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Holy crap, I never knew you two were related!


Pitts is a mini Pugmom. LOL

whhoaa that sounds bizarre when you say it out loud. 

this isnt positive pit bull press. Im not claiming that other breeds dont experience this sort of thing. they do. but few others breeds stand out as being in a prime position to experience it like Pit bulls are. the reason they are is the ignorance and hate spawned by all the fear, the myths, the lies and the hype. 

Remmy
Hope
Phoenix
another girl named Hope

i have more. shot, burned, stabbed with knives, with steel cables, railroad spikes, decapitated, beaten, sexually abused, flayed alive, starved, overbred, fought..i mean..they're pit bulls right? why should anyone care what happens to those awful monster dogs? good riddance. right? 

just sayin...


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Holy crap, I never knew you two were related!


Yup !...Sister DFers lol


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## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

I was just at the local shelter (attached to a clinic I was getting vaccinations for my pets) and I decided to look at dogs as they are having a big adoption event (free vaccines/check ups for life for any dog adopted this month). Out of all the dogs, a pit bull male puppy (who was adopted while we were there), a pitbull 1 year old female and a weimaraner/pitbull older female stood out for me. They were the most calm, friendly dogs there and definitely the ideal personality for a family. Some of the pit bulls looked scared to death and it makes me wonder where they came from and what they did to them but not one of the many of them were overtly hyper nor mean. One was scared but since we sat and talked with him he came to the cage to sit and smell my hand and pressed his head on the holes to be petted and licked our hands. He was full of love. This isn't a creature to be scared of at all. All of the typical popular breeds there were just running about wild and even had labs snarl at me, but I get those dogs will be taken first over some of the really great pit bulls. :-/

I never really thought about getting a pit, but I think this visit changed my mind to their possibility of being a good fit.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Its just another form of racial profileing..and discrimination.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I'll never forget Mystic, a Pitbull that was found at an abandoned homeless camp near Nashville, TN by a friend of mine, starving and half dead, apparently just dumped there. He was terrorfied and starving. Looked like a walking skeleton. And yet didn't even so much as growl at them when they approached. 



















I wanted to take him in myself, but was way to far off around the time they found him and there was no way of him getting to us. So I donated a ton of money towards his vet bills. He eventually made a full recovery and found a home, but the point is even after all he had been through, he was so trusting and loving towards humans. As are most pitbulls, despite all the bullshit they get dragged through, and they're like that because it's in their nature to _love_ people.


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