# 1 year old male getting aggressive....



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Hi guys,

We adopted a 4 month old black lab/shepard rescue in Dec, and he just recently turned 1 year. He is not neutered yet (going on Tuesday) as we were on the wait list at the SPCA and just got our call to bring him in.

We had some food aggression issues when he was around 5 months, but we started feeding in outside, and taught him to sit/stay and wait for us to go back in before approaching the bowl, and that seemed to work out well for us. We couldn't approach the bowl and take it away or anything...... He was fine with bones and toys.....

Well, lately he's starting to show more signs of aggression. Now that he's a big dog (70 lbs), it's a bit more frightening and harder to handle! He barks and snarls as people walk by on the street, sometimes even on walks when we aren't at our own house, or if people come to the door, and he snarled and lunged at a guest I had over!!!! He's also snarled at me and my husband for petting him while he was sleeping, or trying to grab his collar when he was chewing on a bone.

We've crate trained him, walk him on a very short leash, try and make him work for his rewards, take him out for walks regularly, socialize him at the dog park..... This aggression is just extremely alarming.......

He seems to be guarding the house, so I'm afraid to have guests over! I'm getting afraid to walk him, because of the way he snarls and barks at people! Any advice? Is this normal behaviour for an unfixed male of his age? Will neutering help?


----------



## Sighty (Mar 16, 2014)

Neutering will probably not help... might make it worse, hard to know.
Is he getting enough mental and physical stimulation? I would look up BAT-training and take contact to a behaviorist. Try to avoid putting him in situations that he can't handle until you have someone helping you out... Maybe the shelter have some recommendations for behaviorists or trainers?


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

I've booked a behaviourist that our vet referred to us. Do they generally help? They certainly aren't cheap!

I guess I'm just super upset at the moment, thinking that our dog is going to have to be taken from us/put down.....


----------



## Sighty (Mar 16, 2014)

That sounds great. I'd say that your changes of getting a happy and relaxed dog are significantly bigger if you get help from a behaviorist early on, instead of waiting until something actually happens.

Dogs at that age CAN be a bit odd. I would just try to be relaxed in the situations. I have a dog who was the same way when she was around 14 months, barking, growling and lunging at people walking towards me or people looking odd or standing still and so on. I would just walk in a different direction while talking to her in a normal voice and having a relaxed body language to show that it wasn't a big deal and I wasn't scared of those people. She is now 1½ years and is totally cool with 90% of the people we meet, so there is hope!
When you have guests, put him in another room or crate him. When you meet someone he doesn't like on your walks, just walk away or pull over to the side. You COULD buy a muzzle, but it will a lot of training to make him relaxed when wearing it.

I wish you the best of luck, and I'm sure other members might have some tips for you.


----------



## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

I would definitely up the obedience. He's testing you and his limits. I would put him on a strict NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) regimen and would also look into a good trainer. You can look up NILIF online...there's a lot of good info on it.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I agree that it's great you're seeing a behaviorist now. Definitely take some video of the issue to take to your appointment in case the behavior doesn't happen while you're there.

This is also a prime age for a fear period, so that could be part of what's going on. I would check out the book "Mine!" for dealing with the guarding behavior (maybe not helpful for guarding the house, but it will help with the food and bone guarding). Work on collar grabs paired with a treat, so that grabbing his collar is a positive thing.

No, this behavior isn't normal for an intact dog at that age. Neutering may help, or it may not. Since you have to get it done anyway you'll see if that helps.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Galathiel said:


> I would definitely up the obedience. He's testing you and his limits. I would put him on a strict NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) regimen and would also look into a good trainer. You can look up NILIF online...there's a lot of good info on it.


NILF is good but make sure it isnt tweaked toward alpha/dominance, which is NOT what you need right now, this dog sounds very insecure of himself, and that is where his aggression comes from (guessing, without seeing him its hard to tell so DONT take my word as gospel, see what the behaviorist has to say).

I use NILF and basically I couple it with "it's yer choice" (google it), which is basically "you dont get what YOU want until I get what I want" which is for them to obey me. You want to sniff that patch of grass? fine, sit first, heel, stay, whatever. When he is herding, if he EVER doesnt listen, that's it, we are out of there and we try again next time. he learned VERY QUICKLY that if he wants to work, he has to do it on my terms. Of course I wasnt abrasive to him, I just said "uh oh!" and we left.

In the mean time, while you are waiting for the behaviorist, I would work on exercises that build his confidence, make it so that it is set up for him to win. When you feed him, instead of taking his bowl away (even if its empty) present him with a yummy treat, make it something that he doesnt usually get like cubed cheese or whatever (provided he doesnt have a sensitive tummy) show him the treat and touch his bowl if he doesnt do anything, take the bowl while giving him the treat at the same time. For now, with his food aggression, i would just feed him in his crate or in a room alone and wait until you can talk to the behaviorist about that one.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

if your going to spend the money for a behaviorist and they are good at what they do to be worth that type of money.. Be honest so that they can help you... Dogs can be fixed , but everyone needs to be fixed, learn and grow for it to stick and progress for the positive. Not being negative, there are so many little things that seem like nothing that to a dog becomes the source of a reaction that grows and becomes out of control when the owners heartfelt are trying to help them. I hope they are a good behaviorist that will provide helpful information and direction for you yall..


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions!!!

So we saw the behaviourist on Sunday, and had him neutered this morning.

What exactly should a behaviourist do? This guy came highly recommended to us by our vet, so we gladly spent the $800 fee for him to come to our house to assess the dog and give us a behavioural plan. I was a bit thrown off by the fact that he hardly even worked with the dog at all. He asked us to leash the dog when he arrived to assess his behaviour when guests arrive at the house, and said that yes, he was indeed in an aggressive stance upon arrival, so we had him crated for the rest of the visit. He didn't show us how to work with the dog AT ALL, or to even re-visit the dog once he'd calmed down. Is that normal?

He made his assessment based on the history we told him, and his brief encounter with the dog at the door. 

His diagnosis is that he's been aggressive with humans, dog on dog, resource guarding and territorial. And that he's cautiously optimistic that the dog can be managed. The course of action is essentially a) neutering him b) fencing our yard and c) essentially re-asserting our "pack leader status" with NILF. He didn't show us HOW to do it. He just gave us some pointers on what to do. Seems like we already knew that stuff......... he didn't really seem to show us HOW to implement anything. Is that normal for $800? Then he said he'd follow up to see how it was going.......... this guy was suppose to be the best!!!


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I sort of had a similar experience when I saw a behaviorist (though not for serious behavioral issues). Lots of tips, but no attempt to show me how to do it, or to see my dog in the environment where he showed the problem behavior. Though my trip wasn't $800 at least! 

I would use the follow up as much as you can. Ask questions, ask for specifics. 

While I'm a fan of NILF, the "pack leader" stuff doesn't sit very well. Behaviorists as a group have denounced dominance theory.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

This guy was older, so not sure if he's still going on info that he has used his entire career? He showed us videos that were quite old..... things like eating before the dog, not letting him on furniture, going through doors/stairs first, making him sit/stay/look at me anytime he wants anything, withholding attention until he behaves, things like that. 

My question is, how does this stuff help with aggression? Is the theory suppose to be that when he views you as a leader, he'll look to you in a stressful situation to see what is expected of him? So his aggression is currently stemming from being unsure of the situation, and thinking that he needs to protect us? And what about in the case of him being aggressive towards us when he's annoyed with what we are doing? Is that because he currently thinks of himself as the boss, and how dare we bother him in any way? But by showing him that we are the boss, he's suppose to just take anything we dish out?

He's a VERY anxious dog. That was made very clear this morning at the neutering appointment. All of the other dogs were happily waiting in line to be let in..... whereas Oscar was a nervous wreck. Barking, whimpering, freaking out. We ended up muzzling him to even bring him in, because I just didn't know what he'd do. So the behavorist also suggested trying anti-anxiety meds....... really?!?!!


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> This guy was older, so not sure if he's still going on info that he has used his entire career? He showed us videos that were quite old..... things like eating before the dog, not letting him on furniture, going through doors/stairs first, making him sit/stay/look at me anytime he wants anything, withholding attention until he behaves, things like that.


Ugh. While some of that is fine (looking to you for what he wants, not giving him attention if he's acting up), the whole not eating before the dog and never letting him on furniture is a bunch of BS. That's a shame.

I do think the idea of NILF is that the dog looks to you for everything. So if he's insecure of new people, he will look to you. That said, I agree with you that just general training and management probably isn't going to solve specific issues if you don't also address those issues.

The anti-anxiety meds are probably the most valid suggestion. If he's anxious and insecure to the point of being aggressive, that's an option that I would try. I know of dogs who were aggressive and were helped a lot by Prozac or other meds.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

He also suggested putting him on a low-protein diet.... around 15-20%. He was previously on a raw meat diet, so he said that too much protein can affect serotonin levels in the brain that could cause aggression.

So neutering, low protein diet, anti-axiety meds, plus training........ 

Should we also get a trainer???


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

Alpha male trying g to exercise his will on you. Your dog needs to know you are the boss and he is below you. Never let him pull on his leash. Do not let him enter rooms before you. He needs to follow you not come before you. If he has lab. Get him a good ball or toy to fetch on a regular basis. Lots of water exercise is good. He sounds out of place and has some pent up frustration. The food issue could be treated with something he really loves. Introduce treats to his bowl before feeding. Then slowly progress to treat with his food eventually treat him while he is eating by aproaching his bowl with the treat . This will create a positive attitude toward his food. Dogs use senses we do not and obviously sense anxiety and fear in us. They are not like us and not equipped to deal with this. A dog only need to worry about dog things. A single pack leader will always be respected. Your dog should seek your approval in every situation. Be firm and CONFIDENT this is key. And always be consistent. If you are trying alot of different things he will be confused.


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

Never give your dog's meds. And neutering is not the issue. No offense. I don't even know your Dog and am confident I could stop those behaviours quickly.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> He also suggested putting him on a low-protein diet.... around 15-20%. He was previously on a raw meat diet, so he said that too much protein can affect serotonin levels in the brain that could cause aggression.
> 
> So neutering, low protein diet, anti-axiety meds, plus training........
> 
> Should we also get a trainer???


I would play around with protein levels and see. I don't think it is causing aggression, but there is some data that it can cause a dog to be more easily over aroused. The behaviorist I saw recommended trying it for my dog who gets very overstimulated. She didn't recommend anything nearly that low though. Just to go from the 30% foods I had been feeding to something like 25% and see if I noticed a change. 

I would definitely look around for a trainer. Look for someone who uses positive methods, nobody who talks about pack leadership and dominance crap. Fighting aggressive behavior with more aggression from the owners just makes the problem worse. But I'm sure there are lots of techniques you could try to hel phim relax.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Never give your dog's meds. And neutering is not the issue. No offense. I don't even know your Dog and am confident I could stop those behaviours quickly.


LOL okay.



elrohwen said:


> I would play around with protein levels and see. I don't think it is causing aggression, but there is some data that it can cause a dog to be more easily over aroused. The behaviorist I saw recommended trying it for my dog who gets very overstimulated. She didn't recommend anything nearly that low though. Just to go from the 30% foods I had been feeding to something like 25% and see if I noticed a change.
> 
> I would definitely look around for a trainer. Look for someone who uses positive methods, nobody who talks about pack leadership and dominance crap. Fighting aggressive behavior with more aggression from the owners just makes the problem worse. But I'm sure there are lots of techniques you could try to hel phim relax.


Interesting, I didnt know that.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Alpha male trying g to exercise his will on you. Your dog needs to know you are the boss and he is below you. Never let him pull on his leash. Do not let him enter rooms before you. He needs to follow you not come before you. If he has lab. Get him a good ball or toy to fetch on a regular basis. Lots of water exercise is good. He sounds out of place and has some pent up frustration. The food issue could be treated with something he really loves. Introduce treats to his bowl before feeding. Then slowly progress to treat with his food eventually treat him while he is eating by aproaching his bowl with the treat . This will create a positive attitude toward his food. Dogs use senses we do not and obviously sense anxiety and fear in us. They are not like us and not equipped to deal with this. A dog only need to worry about dog things. A single pack leader will always be respected. Your dog should seek your approval in every situation. Be firm and CONFIDENT this is key. And always be consistent. If you are trying alot of different things he will be confused.


Um, no, this has NOTHING to do with "pack status". Dominance theory has been thoroughly debunked by science. Do a search on the forum to find the multitude of links to information on this.



> He also suggested putting him on a low-protein diet.... around 15-20%. He was previously on a raw meat diet, so he said that too much protein can affect serotonin levels in the brain that could cause aggression.


Seriously? LOL, not likely, honestly, given what you've said here, I wouldn't take much of this behaviourist's advice, he doesn't sound very knowledgeable about dog behaviour at all to be honest.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Um, no, this has NOTHING to do with "pack status". Dominance theory has been thoroughly debunked by science. Do a search on the forum to find the multitude of links to information on this.
> 
> 
> Seriously? LOL, not likely, honestly, given what you've said here, I wouldn't take much of this behaviourist's advice, he doesn't sound very knowledgeable about dog behaviour at all to be honest.


Still, it couldnt hurt to see if say, a mainly plant based protein food instead of raw, or a meat sourced food might do him better. 

OP, I would also suggest trying a supplement called "Nupro" it also possible that he might be missing some supplements in his diet and that can also cause temperament problems. here is the link to their main site: www.nuprosupplements.com/ I order mine from chewy . com (no spaces).


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think it's important to remember that this is the same dog/situation from this thread; http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/353434-aggression-over-food-other.html


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

From the first thread, it sounds like the majority of the issues are related to resource guarding. It really is one of the easier behaviors to fix if you follow the established protocols. Definitely get the book "Mine!"


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

You should call him and voice exactly what you have explained... "what is it exactly your getting for $800.00 " for $800.00 this man belongs to you ... to answer every question you have in detail... Thank goodness there is yelp .... 

for me Nothing in life is free is structure.. teaching structured interactions for you and the dog to learn through practicing.. I teaches very specific rules of engagement between owner and dogs.. Dogs learn to anticipate and there is security for a dog knowing what is coming next. it's calming... it's a great foundation you have a focus and a small goal one situation at a time, to work towards so it's not overwhelming. You set up the food aggression situation, first you have to get through feeding a reactive dog and you found a way to make it work to get through it.. (that it was easiest for you and the dog to be ok) and once you set that up you built upon that calmness you knew you could get and took it a little further until you obtained what you have with him being ok with working with you... 

that is what it is all about... looking at your situation and thinking how can I set this up to be able to reach my dog to be ok.. No every situation has to be delt with right on the spot in that moment. If you don't have a good answer, then walk away and call your dog to you when he comes and sits reward and smile at them .. Then sit down and think how you would handle that situation the next time it happens , where would you direct the dog to go to get out of the situation.. or even how to prevent the dog being put into that situation.. Lots of healing starts at home and then transfer out into going into public.. Hang in there I always walked my reactive Caucasian pup out of a intense moment... he's 147lb's now and still intense for his breed , just my presence is calming to him to relax best thing he ever learned about me... 

Hang in there you can work thought this


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Ya, I know right? I thought that he'd work with us/the dog....... instead he left the dog in the crate and showed us brochures of "dog postures" so that we'd know how to read warning signs. Well, seeing a different type of dog/breed in a picture, and being able to read my own dog is VERY different. Yes, I know when he freezes and looks at me he isn't happy and may very well bite me. 

Any advice on getting the dog to listen to me? I've been working with him solidly for 2 weeks now on sitting/staying/looking at me for everything he wants........ which he will happily do when he wants something badly. But to just get him to come when called for no reason, or a small trest is challenging. Even if I show him a treat and call him, he often just sits there and looks at me. I'm not sure if he doesn't respect me as someone he needs to listen to, or if I'm just not being clear on what it is that I want him to do? Also, don't they learn what it is that I want from him over time? If I've been asking him to sit at the back door and stay before letting him out into the yard, why do I constantly need to keep telling him to do so? Shouldn't he be learning this by now, and pre-emtively just doing it? He'll go outside and sit in his "spot" before he gets fed, he's learned that pretty quick. And when we come home, he's learned that we won't enter the door until he lies in his bed. So he'll run to his bed when we arrive home......But seems slow to learn skills with a less valuable reward (like a regular treat). I know, small steps.....it just seems like I've been trying the small steps for months now, and he doesn't seem to be progressing to the larger steps. Am I just not working hard enough at it? How do I prevent him from getting obese if I work with him using treats all day!?!


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Dogs don't have a concept of respect really. They do things for us for a couple reasons:
1) They understand the cue clearly
And
2a) They are either working to get something they want (like a treat, though eventually the treat is a variable thing, or a life reward)
or
2b) They are working to avoid punishment

So I would say either he doesn't really know what you mean, or the alternative (sniffing what he is sniffing, chasing something, eating food off the counter, etc) is more reinforcing than what you can offer. 

If he's staring right at you, not doing anything else, and still won't come, then he either doesn't really understand what you want, or he has had bad experiences coming to you when you call (nail trims, baths, etc) and the cue is poisoned. Do you use a clicker or a marker word like "yes" when you train? How did you teach "come" in the first place?

As for things like sitting at the back door, the problem is likely that you are telling him what to do, so he keeps waiting for you to tell him. Try letting him make the choice. Just stand at the backdoor with your hand on the knob and wait for him to sit. He might try other things first, but ignore him until he sits. Then open the door a bit and if he moves, close it again. Within a couple minutes he'll be sitting there waiting for a release without you having to say anything. Each time you repeat he will get better and better. Teach him how to make choices for himself and see the consequences of those choices, instead of always telling him exactly what to do. Google "It's Yer Choice" for the basic idea - it can be applied to a lot of things in life. And try to use life rewards for good behavior when you can, like access to the outdoors from the door or the car, or getting to go towards something he wants to sniff.

Most of the things you just described in your last post are issues that an experienced positive trainer can definitely help you with.

For treats, you just need to take that amount of calories out of his regular meals if he's getting chubby. One of my dogs has a pretty high metabolism and lots of treats hasn't effected his weight, but others are more sensitive and will gain weight easily. I like using Nature's Balance or Red Barn food rolls, because they are a balanced meal but also work as a high value treat. So I can use those and cut back on kibble and not worry my dog is missing out on nutrients the way he would be if I fed a ton of string cheese and then cut back kibble. They are also pretty easy and convenient and don't crumble in your pockets as much as some other treats. You can cut them as small as you want too.


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

Regarding getting your dog to come. This is
Hard for you. Not for the dog. Your dog needs to know that when you say come if he does not you will go get him and make him do what it is you want. My Corso is 5mnths and when I say come. He will surely come. This was not easy because in the middle of night or anytime for that matter when training to go out to piss.I was not always up to this and he resisted immensely. But I learned that I would say command and if he did not come I would go get him and make him. Try this and focus on this one. Once he understands you mean business he will respect you as pack leader. All you need is to say his name and give command to Come. No other words should be spoken. He will learn this fairly quickly. I would suggest that first and this will build your Pack leader status. Then all else will be easier.


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

I know there is alot of advice here. I'm just stating what has worked with me. Owning a few Breeds in my life. We are training Dogs??? Are we not. Anyone who does not believe in pack leader status is very uninformed. I barely treat my dog in training. It's hilarious. And once he understands commands and obeys on regular basis and respects you as his leader why would you continue to treat him. Again these are dogs we are talking about. Let's not get too carried away.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I do agree with going to get your dog if they blow off a recall, but that's after the dog knows what the recall means. Just saying a random word and then going to get your dog is not teaching him anything. It needs to be taught to a level where you are sure your dog knows what you want and is choosing to do something else. Before that point, don't put him in a situation where he is going to not do it because he doesn't understand it yet. If you have to keep going and getting the dog, you are doing something wrong in your training.



MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> I know there is alot of advice here. I'm just stating what has worked with me. Owning a few Breeds in my life. We are training Dogs??? Are we not. Anyone who does not believe in pack leader status is very uninformed. I barely treat my dog in training. It's hilarious. And once he understands commands and obeys on regular basis and respects you as his leader why would you continue to treat him. Again these are dogs we are talking about. Let's not get too carried away.


Sure, be a leader, teach your dog what you want him to do. But it has nothing to do with being a "pack leader". Dogs don't think we're dogs, and dogs don't have strict hierarchies among themselves anyway.

And I continue to give my dogs treats for obeying commands because I work to get paid, so I don't think it's unreasonable for them to get paid too. By putting behavior on a variable reinforcement schedule, and building up the value of alternative reinforcement (toys, personal play and interaction, etc) I can drastically reduce the number of treats over time, and I don't have to have treats on me to get the behavior. But if you don't motivate your dog in some way to want to work with you, you just have to force him to comply, and I'm not really interested in using pure compulsion to train my dog. That is old school and even the more old school disciplines (IPO, competitive obedience, etc) are teaching behaviors with reward based training now and getting much better results than they did when they used pure compulsion. At some point after that trainers decide if they will use positive punishment or not, but I don't know anybody who is still training the basic behaviors without some sort of reward.

ETA: Also, the OP's dog is not responding consistently and probably doesn't understand exactly what she wants from him, so cutting out treats now is stupid.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> I know there is alot of advice here. I'm just stating what has worked with me. Owning a few Breeds in my life. We are training Dogs??? Are we not. Anyone who does not believe in pack leader status is very uninformed. I barely treat my dog in training. It's hilarious. And once he understands commands and obeys on regular basis and respects you as his leader why would you continue to treat him. Again these are dogs we are talking about. Let's not get too carried away.


Haha I think it is you sir, who is uninformed.


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

Why get a dog.If you are not going to be the leader. I don't understand how this works. This is a loving respectful loyal bond you have because your dog trusts you. He believes in you and FOLLOWS you. You can treat a dog to teach him. But if you have to continue treating then someone needs to treat you. Don't confuse people and complicate the simplest of fundamentals in this situation that is not fair to the owners. Again know your breed. I knew all this before this Cesar fellow was around.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Why get a dog.If you are not going to be the leader. I don't understand how this works. This is a loving respectful loyal bond you have because your dog trusts you. He believes in you and FOLLOWS you. You can treat a dog to teach him. But if you have to continue treating then someone needs to treat you. Don't confuse people and complicate the simplest of fundamentals in this situation that is not fair to the owners. Again know your breed. I knew all this before this Cesar fellow was around.


Cesar Milan is a tv personality, not a dog trainer. Let's just put that out there right now.

I don't think anybody is confusing the OP. She is asking for help teaching her dog to listen to her. Just saying "be a leader" is not particularly helpful advice. Obviously she would like to lead her dog and have him listen, that's why she's asking for help.


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

I can see by your profile that you like to impose your ideas on everyone and every situation
Like I said I trained dogs before Cesar was around. BTW where is your career as a dog trainer currently. I'm not being smart. You can say anything g on the Internet. I'm not here to dispute anything g just saying what works .


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> I can see by your profile that you like to impose your ideas on everyone and every situation
> Like I said I trained dogs before Cesar was around. BTW where is your career as a dog trainer currently. I'm not being smart. You can say anything g on the Internet. I'm not here to dispute anything g just saying what works .


I was training dogs before he was even around, too and you dont see me going on and on about it. 

And if by "impose ideas" you mean "have an opinion" than yes I suppose everyone here does that LOL.

But all joking aside, dominance/pack leader garb even in the most experienced hands would go VERY wrong for this owner and her dog. some dogs are always going to be reactive and guardy, and its just a matter of managing them, they will never be cured. OP I am not saying there is no hope for your dog or that he cant be "fixed" (so to speak) but you have to prepare yourself for the chance that his kneejerk reaction will always be to guard things he deems valuable.

For now I would not give him things when he is in general areas of the house, of if you "have" to, when you walk by, drop a yummy treat as you go, and dont look at him, so he sees you passing by as a good thing not a bad thing, just until the behaviorist gets to him.

Also if this behaviorist even BREATHS a word about dominance, being alpha, or the pack leader RUN SCREAMING from this person as fast as you can.


----------



## MelTruffles (Jan 27, 2015)

The whole "pack leader" stuff has been debunked by animal scientists, if your behaviorist is a dominant bimbo, they don't keep up with their research.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Well now I'm even more confused, as I've just spent $800 on a behaviourist (that came highly recommended by my vet, and is used to testify in court cases involving aggressive dogs to help re-habilitate them), and apparently he's just as wrong as the first woman I went to! WTF!!!! So now I have to dish out even more money to hire a trainer, that may or may not even work/be any good!!! How can the entire dog industry get away with having such poor standards, that anyone can just claim to be a "professional", take your money, and not help you with anything????? If people that have degrees/are recommended by vets aren't even good, how on earth am I suppose to find a proper trainer, without dishing out more money for a bunch of BS??

My questions aren't so much to do with the resource guarding anymore, but the fact that he bit a guest in my house!!! Not hard enough to draw blood, but hard enough for me to now muzzle him when we go to the vet, stop going to off-leash parks/stop the socialization classes, and not want to ever have guests over ever again for fear that he will hurt someone!!!!


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

May I suggest the "LISTEN TO ME "Treat . You can find them at your local dollar store. If that does not work than give your dog's some medication. Best bet would be to get a goldfish.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Well now I'm even more confused, as I've just spent $800 on a behaviourist (that came highly recommended by my vet, and is used to testify in court cases involving aggressive dogs to help re-habilitate them), and apparently he's just as wrong as the first woman I went to! WTF!!!! So now I have to dish out even more money to hire a trainer, that may or may not even work/be any good!!! How can the entire dog industry get away with having such poor standards, that anyone can just claim to be a "professional", take your money, and not help you with anything????? If people that have degrees/are recommended by vets aren't even good, how on earth am I suppose to find a proper trainer, without dishing out more money for a bunch of BS??
> 
> My questions aren't so much to do with the resource guarding anymore, but the fact that he bit a guest in my house!!! Not hard enough to draw blood, but hard enough for me to now muzzle him when we go to the vet, stop going to off-leash parks/stop the socialization classes, and not want to ever have guests over ever again for fear that he will hurt someone!!!!


what was happening when he bit the guest? I know its not much consolation to you, but the fact that he inhibited his bite (didnt draw blood) IS a good thing. I would instruct all guests to ignore him, not talk to him, if they cant (or wont) then I would recommend putting him away in his crate or quiet dog safe room until they are gone, especially if they are kids.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

for the door stuff try introducing what you want using a door fame inside the house.. stand on the same side with your dog and practice a sit wait. introduce stop sign type hand gesture lightly in front of their face as you say wait and just stand there for a second or two.. then get eye contact.. give the OK INSIDE and take the step off and go through the door.. when the pup follows give a happy dance together and have him follow you to the kitchen to get a treat... My dogs pick up the words for inside outside as we are doing it like for first morning potty.. When they get to the closed door before me I say wait.. (which they have to anyway lol lol ) The dogs are doing actual things with me. when I'm doing chores and that is when I introduce words and cues .. they follow my motions in doing them.. and eventually we have done them enough together that I can throw it out towards them to do by them self when I am not there with them.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

So essentially what happened was that when the guest arrived, I had him tied in the yard. I brought him in on a leash after the guest was settled, and let him sniff the guest and say hello. (He'd never been aggressive towards guests before, so the leash was just because he gets really excited and jumps up). He was barking, but sniffed the guest and tried to jump up. I waited until he had calmed down, and gave Oscar a raw hide bone to chew on to keep him busy (otherwise he used to pester people by jumping up)...... Oscar took the raw hide upstairs (which is usual). He came down a few minutes later and sat on the floor between myself and the guest (we were going over some papers at the kitchen table, but had no food). We were just remarking about how much calmer he was, and I was telling the guest that he just needs a few minutes to get his energy out and say hello at the start, and then he's usually ok. Well, the guest started to pet him on the head, and I guess looked into his eyes. A few seconds later, Oscar snarled and bit him in the arm! Luckily I was right there and grabbed him by the collar and took him to his crate. But he'd never done that before, and I have no idea why!!!!! Since then, I've also noticed him barking more "mean" sounding and snarling/lunging at people on the street.


----------



## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> I know there is alot of advice here. I'm just stating what has worked with me. Owning a few Breeds in my life. We are training Dogs??? Are we not. Anyone who does not believe in pack leader status is very uninformed. I barely treat my dog in training. It's hilarious. And once he understands commands and obeys on regular basis and respects you as his leader why would you continue to treat him. Again these are dogs we are talking about. Let's not get too carried away.


 Funny but I would not recommend such things the pack crap is not something that works long term in my experience-- actually my family (brother) has the experiences/bite and other things to prove it. You want to know what happened to the dog???


MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> May I suggest the "LISTEN TO ME "Treat . You can find them at your local dollar store. If that does not work than give your dog's some medication. Best bet would be to get a goldfish.


I find the end of this disrespectful, OP is looing for advice not a "get a different pet"


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> I can see by your profile that you like to impose your ideas on everyone and every situation
> Like I said I trained dogs before Cesar was around. BTW where is your career as a dog trainer currently. I'm not being smart. You can say anything g on the Internet. I'm not here to dispute anything g just saying what works .


First and only warning. you are free to disagree with other posters, lively debates are common here, but you MUST do it respectfully. Insulting other forum members will not be tolerated.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Regarding getting your dog to come. This is
> Hard for you. Not for the dog. Your dog needs to know that when you say come if he does not you will go get him and make him do what it is you want. My Corso is 5mnths and when I say come. He will surely come. This was not easy because in the middle of night or anytime for that matter when training to go out to piss.I was not always up to this and he resisted immensely. But I learned that I would say command and if he did not come I would go get him and make him. Try this and focus on this one. Once he understands you mean business he will respect you as pack leader. All you need is to say his name and give command to Come. No other words should be spoken. He will learn this fairly quickly. I would suggest that first and this will build your Pack leader status. Then all else will be easier.




Why not just do some forced recalls???? The dog gets the idea MUCH faster than if you go get him.... In which case the dog will probably never get it...

Saying the dog's name is quite tedious.... And limiting to say the least..... The only time I say a dog's name before a command is when I want a specific dog to obey the command... 

But what if I want the entire group to respond to the command? 

IF I want all my dogs to sit, stay, come etc... I am not repeating the command four times. I am saying the command one time...


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> I can see by your profile that you like to impose your ideas on everyone and every situation
> Like I said I trained dogs before Cesar was around. BTW where is your career as a dog trainer currently. I'm not being smart. You can say anything g on the Internet. I'm not here to dispute anything g just saying what works .


LOL Nice of you to check out my profile. It's called being an active member and trying to help people. Not just suggesting they are a terrible dog owner and should get a fish. None of your comments so far have been helpful or informative, just condescending and vaguely insulting.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> . Anyone who does not believe in pack leader status is very uninformed.


LOL this is one of the most humorous things I have read on this forum....

In a feral state.... Dogs can form a pack... I have seen it... I have been paid to remove feral dogs....

But dogs in a home environment a pack???? No....

And even if they were a pack.. You ain't a member.... Dogs know you are not another dog.....

Seriously..... I have been working dogs for over 40 years.....

Never heard this pack crap before Cesar came on TV.....


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Well now I'm even more confused, as I've just spent $800 on a behaviourist (that came highly recommended by my vet, and is used to testify in court cases involving aggressive dogs to help re-habilitate them), and apparently he's just as wrong as the first woman I went to! WTF!!!! So now I have to dish out even more money to hire a trainer, that may or may not even work/be any good!!! How can the entire dog industry get away with having such poor standards, that anyone can just claim to be a "professional", take your money, and not help you with anything????? If people that have degrees/are recommended by vets aren't even good, how on earth am I suppose to find a proper trainer, without dishing out more money for a bunch of BS??
> 
> My questions aren't so much to do with the resource guarding anymore, but the fact that he bit a guest in my house!!! Not hard enough to draw blood, but hard enough for me to now muzzle him when we go to the vet, stop going to off-leash parks/stop the socialization classes, and not want to ever have guests over ever again for fear that he will hurt someone!!!!


Stuff happens with dogs. It's not a life sentence.. My gal Adele jumped and ripped my other females throat almost out there was a split second as the blood was pouring out of J at the speed it was, that I thought I wasn't going to be able to stop the bleeding and it was just a matter of seconds before I lost her.. I kept my head and applied pressure to J stopped the bleeding and she is fine.. Adele is fine, they don't get along with each other... but they great dogs in all other aspects of home life and public with people, and dogs ... Now that is horrific right... so you can agree there are worst things that can happen to need to work on, then snapping at your guest right.. OK

Good things your pup was just fine hanging out with you and your guest, and you were just about to appreciate it (until, the dreaded hand came out and maybe the in your face a little too close for comfort) So we know pup is not ready for petting.. not a hard thing to manage.. No touching, but always you rewarding by your own hand for calm relaxed behavior while socializing at home and in public around people who keep their hands to themselves.... you need to start somewhere and this is a good foundation to start. It's not uncommon or a crime for a dog to have space requirements...

will ask this question... when you do attention training.. does he look into your eyes or is he looking some where else to the side or beyond you even though his head is facing your direction.. 
when I got J she was 2.5 years old.. 2 years in a kennel since she was a puppy.. and almost 6 months with her first home who was an experienced GSD person who could not connect with her.... J I had to treat like an 8 week old puppy learning skills on how to learn,,, that she never learned. Any time I need to stop and give direction I would stop get down on a knee and cup her happy little head to get her to look at me, so maybe she would start putting it together to hear me. start learning that I was talking to her .. She never had that before, interaction two ways with a human.. never bonded with a human, never bonded with a home, never bonded with other animals... That is what she was missling, that is why nothing was getting through from an experienced GSD person.. everything was bouncing off of her and not connecting on her end that it meant anything so she was a wild child with nothing sticking to see progress with her.... She's 9 now she is my best off leash farm dog, I wouldn't trade her for the world spending time with her to reach her... 

and I do want to add .. that it has caught my attention that you grab his collar often in heightened situation.. lots of dogs bite their owners because of learning it's a scary situation, in this situation learning it is what is coming. your upset , the situation you do it, is over emotional traumatic for you and for the dog.. never ends well.... what is the difference from a hand coming in to pet or a hand coming in to grab the collar...


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

So do you think I'm over reacting? And that it was an isolated incident brought on by this strange house guest getting too in-his-face, and that he hasn't all of a sudden turned mean? I'm not sure if it makes any sort of difference, but this house guest had very dark skin. I only mention this because perhaps Oscar was cautious and unsure of this guest because he was different then most others we've had? I've been told black dogs are often thought of as "evil" by some people because it's harder to read their expressions then a similar dog with light fur or lighter eyes. Does the same concept hold true for dogs reading humans? That they have a harder time reading the expression of a person with dark skin and dark eyes, and therefore he was going to check him out and was thrown off by the direct eye contact and dreaded hand/head pat?

He's never bitten us and drawn blood..... I'm just concerned with the fact that he bit the guest, then started getting super snarly and aggressive sounding at people on the street, and then the behaviourist wouldn't even go near him, which further lead me to thinking he's some vicious dog........


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I don't have any scientific data to support that.. At dog school we were told that different ethnic groups can carry themselves differently eat different foods, smell differently and sweat differently not to mention some people in general are more fearful of dog and especially black dogs to act nervous or strange around them to make a dog uneasy about that person.. Does it match up to your guest situation as you have explained NO.. your pup was fine accepting sounded like he was minding his own business... until a line was crossed for the dog and he reacted.. Did he bite your guest or did your dog and guest collide trying to fling his hand out of the way in panic of a warning snapping dog.. ????


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> LOL this is one of the most humorous things I have read on this forum....
> 
> In a feral state.... Dogs can form a pack... I have seen it... I have been paid to remove feral dogs....
> 
> ...


Yeah, CMs dogs seem very unhappy, I wonder how they keep order when he isn't there to be the pack leader? I don't know, it seems like a lot of needless trouble to go through because I already am the leader by default, because I control all the stuff the dog wants and needs to survive and thrive.

Thank god I figured that out and now I have much more fun with my dogs, a ND I am sure they have much more fun with me, too


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have a pack and I am NOT the pack leader. I am the goddess who supplies food, open doors, refill water dishes and provide a lift up for those who can not jump. My dogs listen to me, not because I am THEE pack leader but because they know good things happen to those who listen. Believe me, I was not voted on nor ran for the position of pack leader. There is that dog who others avoid or watch out for not because that dog is the pack leader but because that dog can be snarky. It is not like there is any single dog that eats first while the others stand around waiting for their chance. It is a free for all when food is involved. There is no single dog who makes sure they are taller or positioned higher than the other dogs. 

The new studies that are out suggest that the owner look at themselves first before placing the blame on the dog. For instance what was your gut feelings about this guy? Did this person make you uneasy? http://www.tesh.com/story/pets-category/psychotherapy-can-help-your-dog/cc/11/id/2369

Another thing, I would not be giving your dog a rawhide for a treat. I would prefer using something that is smaller and that could be eaten very quick like. I want the reward to be eaten right then and there. With your dog's past resource guarding issues, something that is eaten right away would be better


----------



## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

I think all you can do is try all your options and re-access. If this behaviorist didnt work, maybe try another down the line. I would work on training and take things slow.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

First of all I can't believe you forked out $800 for the behaviorist and not to mention he was that bad? I paid £30 for an hour session with a positive only behaviorist and she gave me a huge plan to follow, procedures to do in certain situations, links about dog reactivity, specific toys to buy, links about why not to use punishment based methods etc and even let me have the dog on a lead and she was throwing treats to him when he calmed down. She left me to it after that session because I'm switched on and understand what I'm doing, you obviously have a very basic understanding of dog behavior etc so this wouldn't be suitable for you and you'd regular meets IMO.

When guests come you need to do the same so he's meeting guests calm and then give him an area where can settle and no one approaches him, be it a room, a crate or just a mat close by but he knows he can settle there and no one will try to pet or approach him. Once he's settling in those places when guests are not there introduce guests and have them throw treats to him or if he comes up to them get them to drop a treat, don't feed directly as this might trigger his food guarding.

She recommended Adaptil collars and plug ins, they're scientifically proven to reduce stress so if you can have a room where you can have him when guests come and have one of those plugged in that may take some edge of his nervousness.

As for outside negative behavior towards people/dogs you need to manage the dog so this isn't happening.
Plan on walking in areas where you have an escape plan and lots of space to move away from people when necessary, preferably an area where dogs have to be on leads because you don't want dogs running up to him and ruining any positive progress you've made.

Look up BAT or LAT training like someone else mentioned earlier in the thread to help with the above.

Look at this link http://careforreactivedogs.com/start-here/ It's really informatve for reactive dogs and under the resources tag there's even a section for muzzle training if you feel safer using one of those.

Also be very wary of something called trigger stacking, explanation here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGIRPAWcSM

Like my dog your dog seems in the early stages so I'd be quite hopeful you can make progress with enough planning and help involved! 

Good luck


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Regarding getting your dog to come. This is
> Hard for you. Not for the dog. Your dog needs to know that when you say come if he does not you will go get him and make him do what it is you want. My Corso is 5mnths and when I say come. He will surely come. This was not easy because in the middle of night or anytime for that matter when training to go out to piss.I was not always up to this and he resisted immensely. But I learned that I would say command and if he did not come I would go get him and make him. Try this and focus on this one. Once he understands you mean business he will respect you as pack leader. All you need is to say his name and give command to Come. No other words should be spoken. He will learn this fairly quickly. I would suggest that first and this will build your Pack leader status. Then all else will be easier.


I'm just going to put this out there... your corso is 5 months now. What are you going to do when he's full grown, stronger than you, and you -can't- physically make him come?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Also, if you are that worried about his behavior, there are over the counter remedies like thunder shirts, and OTC calming aids that you can try before you put him on expensive prescription meds.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I'm just going to put this out there... your corso is 5 months now. What are you going to do when he's full grown, stronger than you, and you -can't- physically make him come?


He's not going to have to do anything because the dog will acknowledge him as pack leader and merely submit to his will. Duh! In all seriousness, I find it rather terrifying that those training methods and approaches are being used on a Corso (or any dog, but especially a dog that will be so large and strong) and cross my fingers that the dog doesn't end up hurting someone severely.

Back to the topic at hand - OP, I think that behaviorist who charged you $800 for a visit in which he didn't even work with the dog is full of crap, and sadly took advantage of you. If I were you, I'd give feedback about your interaction to whoever recommended that person to you, and hopefully they'll think twice about recommending him in the future. 

I have quite a few black and Latino friends who come to my house frequently (I am white), and I can say that my GSD/Dane mix did regard them differently during the first encounter than he did my other lighter skinned guests. He was a pretty environmentally observant, bold dog who definitely had protective instincts. While he never snapped at any of them, he treated them with suspicion until he had a chance to view my interactions with them. He then realized that they were just another person who looked different than the people he had met so far, and they weren't at all a threat. Then he warmed right up.

You've gotten quite a lot of great advice on this thread, so I don't really need to give any training tips. However, a bit of psychological advice - it's not a "one strike and you're out" situation with your dog. Sure, he presented an alarming behavior that you want to stop from happening, but it doesn't mean that he's a wildly aggressive blood-thirsty monster. My GSD/Dane bit a kid in the face when he was a puppy because the kid was chasing him with a stick. My Mal/something killed two cats because his previous owners adopted him and released him into the house without making sure he wasn't small animal aggressive. I simply worked on training and situational awareness to avoid these types of confrontations and both of my dogs led/are leading long and happy lives


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I'm just going to put this out there... your corso is 5 months now. What are you going to do when he's full grown, stronger than you, and you -can't- physically make him come?


Yeah ... glad I dont live near this guy, see what I mean about some people not owning certain breeds?


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

Do you people have nothing better to do. Again you display your very minimal knowledge about dogs. My dog is only going to mature and the relationship between Master and Dog is only going to get stronger. By structure and not by being all over the map as you seem to be. Again it's not about the dog itself it's about the Handler .I unlike others know what I'm doing and will not forget when my dog is 8mnths or a yr or no matter how old he is. My dog knows I am the Boss. He comforts in knowing this and in return listens to my commands. This relationship will not deteriorate unless a handler is very insecure and taking all kinds of advice on forums from people like yourself whom have NO idea what they are talking about and seems that their Live is not for Dogs but for themselves. Neglect comes in the form of ignorance and you display this immensely. I feel for any pet that YOU own.


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

I'm not the one whom has a dog that has bit someone. I would not own one that does. And I certainly would not take advice from INTERNET TRAINERS. Lol your worried that you don't live near my dog that has never showed any signs of aggression. Obviously you are all offended. It's ok. If you would really like to help your pet, yourself, and the innocent HUMANS around you that are getting g bit by this insecure and fearful dog. Stop listening to these jokers on this site .


----------



## MAGNUS ' S Owner (Sep 8, 2015)

To the original poster. I'm going to put this out there and do not care at all what you think. You spend way too much time on this site looking for solutions to your dog's issues. Looking at all the posts and even different issues you present on here it points to you. You seem very insecure and confused and your dog obviously knows this. No treat or medication in the world is going to fix this nor is any other Trainer aside from yourself unless they are going f to live with you and your dog. I can't believe how blind all these people are. Take it for what it is. But when your dog bites a Human. There is a huge problem. Wide up and take control of this situation. . There are people that are serving jail time for crimes like this. SMARTEN UP


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Ya, it's hard to tell whether the dog intended to bite him or warn him....... we were sitting at the kitchen table and the guest was I guess reaching over him to pet his head...... either way the snarl was scary and caught us both off guard so whether the arm and teeth collided or whether the dog intended to bite is unclear...... he's snarled at us before but didn't bite......


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

If anything I want you to take the emotional factor out for yourself.. it's crippling to your ability's when your too emotionally driven.. and that feeds into your pup as well.. Yes, very traumatic and now it's time to move on. Take it seriously for managment that will be helpful for your pup to move forward. Year old pup just starting to mature towards adulthood.. warning growling/ barking are good things.. the pup is using lower levels trying to tell you they uncomfortable .. you need that and should appreciate that and take quick action to assist the pup to relive the situation.. that is a reward for the dog.. when they communicate and you step in to make it right the pup is rewarded that (it works at that level) when it doesn't work at that level and no one steps in to stop, they go to the next level to snap.. and if that works then the pup is rewarded for using that level behavior for everything they want to stop or go away... 

dogs don't want to fight, they will if they have to. dogs don't want to sink their teeth into people or other dogs, ever seen dogs correct each other in the face.. one dog completely freezes to take the correction... and the other dog is right on their face snapping a few times, or right up against the side of the other dogs face snapping, mouthing the fur on their cheek.. They so fast and so controlled in just wanting to give a firm correction with no intent to harm.. and it's over over... Puppies are not as graceful in mobility skils ... you can control the environment in your home, and general open area public situations.


adding and you did say that you recognized the freeze stiff behavior in your pup..... so your pup is normal, trying from the lowest level to let you know they concern'd in a situation.. and it has evolved to higher levels of communicating to you... and the pup will use what works.. for the pup...


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Ya, that is true. Hard not to be emotional when we have a 5 month old baby! And when anyone the dog may hurt/bite is our responsibility! I know I am probably being a bit too dramatic, but one aggressive bite to the baby is too many, know what I mean?

I have been working with him today. Turns out that he didn't actually understand "come" afterall. So after an hour of training with some kibble, and he was sitting, coming, sitting again, and looking at me for a reward. So small steps right!


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Very difficult to say without seeing the incident, but I would guess one of two things. One, your dog may have been resource guarding you from your guest, or two your dog may have been very uncomfortable with being reached for by a stranger. I would be more suspicious of the second.

Your dog is part GSD. It can be normal for them to be reserved around strangers, and at his age he is probably starting to feel a great deal of conflict about strangers. Toast, my malinois, is going through a very stranger suspicious phase right now. It's normal for his age and breed and I agree with Patricia that it is essential to take your emotion out of the equation in order to help teach him navigate it.

First, manage situations like this to keep everyone safe while you work on training. For example, in the situation you described I would have just kept him in a different room and not let the guest interact with him. In your home, after having a rawhide, is not a good learning moment. 

Second, at first you need to set up learning/teaching moments in a way that makes it easy for his brain to learn: low stress, under threshold, guaranteed success. I go to a local park and sit off to the side, playing kind of a hybrid game of "open bar/closed bar" and "look at that." Both are searchable, but basically getting positive associations (tugging or treats) at a safe distance from strangers. As his comfort level grows, you can close the distance. But take it slow and don't overwhelm his ability to cope with stress. He needs to learn to cope with SOME stress but you also don't want him so stressed he can't learn anything. It's a fine line, and if you end up over it and see him getting stressed, just move away from the situation. 

Training for this situation for your dog is something that will happen over a long period of time. Until you have confidence in his obedience and his choices, and your ability to recognize when he is getting stressed, you will need to work on management as well. Over time he will realize he can trust your judgment and hopefully learn to trust his own judgment and make good choices.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Do you people have nothing better to do. Again you display your very minimal knowledge about dogs. My dog is only going to mature and the relationship between Master and Dog is only going to get stronger. By structure and not by being all over the map as you seem to be. Again it's not about the dog itself it's about the Handler .I unlike others know what I'm doing and will not forget when my dog is 8mnths or a yr or no matter how old he is. My dog knows I am the Boss. He comforts in knowing this and in return listens to my commands. This relationship will not deteriorate unless a handler is very insecure and taking all kinds of advice on forums from people like yourself whom have NO idea what they are talking about and seems that their Live is not for Dogs but for themselves. Neglect comes in the form of ignorance and you display this immensely. I feel for any pet that YOU own.


Clearly you chose to disregard my warning. I would say I'm surprised, but I'd be lying. Time for a little positive punishment I guess.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Mine is going through the same phase, but we are slowly getting out of it I think because he is willing to approach strangers now when before he wouldnt even do that, so we are making slow progress.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I personally think it's scary for people, when your thinking in terms of controlling the actions/behaviors/ choices of an animal , and you will never have control of them ..... You do have control of your management ability. you do have control in teaching them skills, and experiences to function and feel confident in the world they live in.. Congratulations on your Baby...    again your management skilsl to control your environment with the safety for you pup to not be put into a position to have to make decision that they are not ready to make good choices in... Taking the time to help your pup develop positive interactions with you, OB, NILIF, daily schedules and use those skills for rules around the baby.. Baby is out starting to try to walk,, puppy gets crate or baby gate rest time.. It's not a punishment for the pup... for a pup that doesn't want anything to do with a stumbling baby... the pup will thank you for keeping that thing baby gated away from them..   Live long journey raising them.. it's not possible for them to know everything at one time...


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Ya, that is true. Hard not to be emotional when we have a 5 month old baby! And when anyone the dog may hurt/bite is our responsibility! I know I am probably being a bit too dramatic, but one aggressive bite to the baby is too many, know what I mean?
> 
> I have been working with him today. Turns out that he didn't actually understand "come" afterall. So after an hour of training with some kibble, and he was sitting, coming, sitting again, and looking at me for a reward. So small steps right!


I think its safe to say that your dog is not going to walk up to your baby and take a chunk out of him, but luckily you have some time until the baby gets mobile to proof behavior and train him. 

About the coming when called, if you have ANY doubts he will obey, then a long line of check cord (they sell them at TSC, they are yellow) will be your best friend 

Also you have to prepare for the fact that this dog might not ever be able to interact freely with your kid, like, the kid might never be able to approach the dog or be around him when he has a toy, etc ...


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

ETA: This kinda comes off accusatory, I think, and I didn't mean it that way. Nobody teaches people how to read dogs and positive training isn't nearly as popular as what CM does. So no judgment on the OP, they're trying and I respect that.

I think, personally, that you've been scaring the crap out of your dog with the collar grabs and a stranger getting a little too close to his collar just pushed him over the line. Adding to that, you've been ignoring his quieter signals (freezing, yawning, lip licking), so he's learned to escalate immediately to growling and biting. On top of that, he's got a fearful temperament, so he started out a lot closer to the line of biting than a more mellow dog. Put all those things together and you've got the perfect storm of bite.

Prozac is not expensive, nor is it dangerous. It's absolutely amazing for fearful dogs if their issue is neurochemical. I would highly recommend giving it a try. If he were just freezing or running away from things, I'd say "sure, wait on the Prozac, do the natural stuff", but he's bitten someone and you have a baby. We're past giving this and that a try, go for the big guns.

Beyond that, you really need to move to positive only training. Nothing that scares him, at all. And remember, it's not what scares you, it's what scares him. Collar grabbing may not be scary to you, but it's obviously terrifying to him, so it's done. You need to start looking for the more subtle fear signs- whites around the eyes, freezing, yawning, nose/lip licking, curling the body, sniffing at nothing- and if you see that, stop whatever you're doing. Back away. Once he learns that you will back off when he gives you calming signals, he'll be less inclined to go straight for the bite. 

Watch kikopup and Zak George. Read Jean Donaldson and Ian Dunbar. Personally, I wouldn't do NILIF. I don't like it for fearful dogs. Fearful dogs need free stuff, lots of it. I would institute Sit to Say Please. This program basically teaches the dog to sit when they want something. This gives the dog the ability to communicate nicely with you and can give a fearful dog a feeling of control that is empowering without being annoying to you.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> I think, personally, that you've been scaring the crap out of your dog with the collar grabs and a stranger getting a little too close to his collar just pushed him over the line. Adding to that, you've been ignoring his quieter signals (freezing, yawning, lip licking), so he's learned to escalate immediately to growling and biting. On top of that, he's got a fearful temperament, so he started out a lot closer to the line of biting than a more mellow dog. Put all those things together and you've got the perfect storm of bite.
> 
> Prozac is not expensive, nor is it dangerous. It's absolutely amazing for fearful dogs if their issue is neurochemical. I would highly recommend giving it a try. If he were just freezing or running away from things, I'd say "sure, wait on the Prozac, do the natural stuff", but he's bitten someone and you have a baby. We're past giving this and that a try, go for the big guns.
> 
> ...


See, I dont agree with that, we werent there, we dont know what the stranger was doing to make him bite, plus, he didnt even break the skin, so he inhibited his bite, that shows he wasnt out of control and was just trying to warn that he wasnt comfortable in the only way he knows how. IMO that is the owner's fault for not reading the signs (no worries though, OP, we have all made that error).

To the OP: I think its also important to remember not to hold your dogs behavior against him, he is scared and he needs you to be there for him, if someone is scaring him or making him uncomfortable, tell THEM to stop, not him.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Do you people have nothing better to do. Again you display your very minimal knowledge about dogs. My dog is only going to mature and the relationship between Master and Dog is only going to get stronger. By structure and not by being all over the map as you seem to be. Again it's not about the dog itself it's about the Handler .I unlike others know what I'm doing and will not forget when my dog is 8mnths or a yr or no matter how old he is. My dog knows I am the Boss. He comforts in knowing this and in return listens to my commands. This relationship will not deteriorate unless a handler is very insecure and taking all kinds of advice on forums from people like yourself whom have NO idea what they are talking about and seems that their Live is not for Dogs but for themselves. Neglect comes in the form of ignorance and you display this immensely. I feel for any pet that YOU own.





MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> To the original poster. I'm going to put this out there and do not care at all what you think. You spend way too much time on this site looking for solutions to your dog's issues. Looking at all the posts and even different issues you present on here it points to you. You seem very insecure and confused and your dog obviously knows this. No treat or medication in the world is going to fix this nor is any other Trainer aside from yourself unless they are going f to live with you and your dog. I can't believe how blind all these people are. Take it for what it is. But when your dog bites a Human. There is a huge problem. Wide up and take control of this situation. . There are people that are serving jail time for crimes like this. SMARTEN UP


OP, (and everyone else who may read this), please ignore this commentary. You are not an insecure owner who is causing issues with your dog. You are absolutely doing the correct thing in seeking help for the problems you're having by any and all means available to you, which is a great and responsible thing to do. 

To MAGNUS ' S Owner - if you believe this forum is full of a bunch of "internet jokers" who don't know how to deal with dogs or give proper advice, you are more than welcome to leave or to stop contributing. Your posts are negative, inflammatory, unhelpful, and rude. While everyone has a different opinion on how to train a dog (indeed, many very experienced handlers on this forum have different approaches that work for them), there is one thing that every valued member of the community can agree upon - we're here to help people in need, if we can.

I usually ignore posts from members like you, however one thing I cannot abide by is someone who uses the anonymity of the internet to bully others. I will not sit idly by while you insult someone for seeking assistance on a forum that is specifically built for this kind of support. It is reprehensible to tear someone down for reaching out for help in a time of need.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> OP, (and everyone else who may read this), please ignore this commentary. You are not an insecure owner who is causing issues with your dog. You are absolutely doing the correct thing in seeking help for the problems you're having by any and all means available to you, which is a great and responsible thing to do.
> 
> To MAGNUS ' S Owner - if you believe this forum is full of a bunch of "internet jokers" who don't know how to deal with dogs or give proper advice, you are more than welcome to leave or to stop contributing. Your posts are negative, inflammatory, unhelpful, and rude. While everyone has a different opinion on how to train a dog (indeed, many very experienced handlers on this forum have different approaches that work for them), there is one thing that every valued member of the community can agree upon - we're here to help people in need, if we can.
> 
> I usually ignore posts from members like you, however one thing I cannot abide by is someone who uses the anonymity of the internet to bully others. I will not sit idly by while you insult someone for seeking assistance on a forum that is specifically built for this kind of support. It is reprehensible to tear someone down for reaching out for help in a time of need.


Very well said!


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MAGNUS ' S Owner said:


> Do you people have nothing better to do. Again you display your very minimal knowledge about dogs. My dog is only going to mature and the relationship between Master and Dog is only going to get stronger. By structure and not by being all over the map as you seem to be. Again it's not about the dog itself it's about the Handler .I unlike others know what I'm doing and will not forget when my dog is 8mnths or a yr or no matter how old he is. My dog knows I am the Boss. He comforts in knowing this and in return listens to my commands. This relationship will not deteriorate unless a handler is very insecure and taking all kinds of advice on forums from people like yourself whom have NO idea what they are talking about and seems that their Live is not for Dogs but for themselves. Neglect comes in the form of ignorance and you display this immensely. I feel for any pet that YOU own.


You know what, you are right..... We are all just a bunch of internet dog trainers.... The fact that we have years of experienced means nothing.... That fact that many of us know each other... Not just on the forum and have witnessed the successes of each others dogs, again means nothing..... The titles our dogs have earned while being trained by us, means nothing....

You said it.... Pack leader.... We got it..... You said it... If the dog will not come, go get it and make it come.... (even though none of us can imagine that would work in a million years... And easy to do with a puppy..... But a grown Cane Corso..... that would be a cute trick.... By the way the white chest spot is not a dominant feature on Cane Corsos... Do some reading... Quite interesting really) 

Only problem with your solutions.... Or lack there of.... They sound like an old Dog Whisperer rerun...... 

No one used that pack leader lingo prior his show..... I know I am just an internet dog trainer and all.... But I was around and involved with dogs prior to anyone ever having heard of CM..... And will be around long after people have long forgotten him.....


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> No one used that pack leader lingo prior his show.....


Is that true? When I was a kid I watched other TV dog trainers because I liked animals and they were the only dog training shows (Stanley Coren & Brad Pattinson... don't remember the names of the shows) I definitely remember Stanley talking about eating before your dog which goes to the typical 'pack' mantra. I remember he said you can eat crackers instead of dog food and to position the bowl and crackers on the counter so it looks like you're eating out of the bowl.

I don't -think- I remember Cesar being a thing at that time. I feel like he's a more recent like 2000's phenomenon?

(not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious)


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You know what, you are right..... We are all just a bunch of internet dog trainers.... The fact that we have years of experienced means nothing.... That fact that many of us know each other... Not just on the forum and have witnessed the successes of each others dogs, again means nothing..... The titles our dogs have earned while being trained by us, means nothing....
> 
> You said it.... Pack leader.... We got it..... You said it... If the dog will not come, go get it and make it come.... (even though none of us can imagine that would work in a million years... And easy to do with a puppy..... But a grown Cane Corso..... that would be a cute trick.... By the way the white chest spot is not a dominant feature on Cane Corsos... Do some reading... Quite interesting really)
> 
> ...


Haha yep, "If the dog wont come, then I will go and get him!" That corso will have you trained very quickly 

And Brad Pattison ... dont even get me started on him, that guy is horrible, just a down right evil man.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> Is that true? When I was a kid I watched other TV dog trainers because I liked animals and they were the only dog training shows (Stanley Coren & Brad Pattinson... don't remember the names of the shows) I definitely remember Stanley talking about eating before your dog which goes to the typical 'pack' mantra. I remember he said you can eat crackers instead of dog food and to position the bowl and crackers on the counter so it looks like you're eating out of the bowl.
> 
> I don't -think- I remember Cesar being a thing at that time. I feel like he's a more recent like 2000's phenomenon?
> 
> (not trying to be argumentative, just genuinely curious)


The only mention of a Stanley Coren show I can find is the show Good Dog!, which according to Wikkopedia is still on, and it only has 4 seasons, so definitely a more recent show, and Brad Pattinson DEFINITELY came after Cesar, he's a recent Canadian phenomenon, sadly.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> The only mention of a Stanley Coren show I can find is the show Good Dog!, which according to Wikkopedia is still on, and it only has 4 seasons, so definitely a more recent show, and Brad Pattinson DEFINITELY came after Cesar, he's a recent Canadian phenomenon, sadly.


Yikes people actually watch him???


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yikes people actually watch him???


Sadly, yes, although I don't think he's on the air anymore, at least I hope not. There's a FB group devoted solely to getting him off the air, lol. I'm a member, and it's been pretty quiet lately. He's still got many of his minions training and promoting his brand of cruelty out in Ontario though, sadly. He's also infamous for getting his lawyers to shutdown any videos that show him abusing dogs, and threatening to sue anyone who publicly disagrees with his methods. There's a bunch of people in the group whom he's attempted to bully that way. Hasn't worked though, lol. His minions tend to try to use the same tactics too.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Ooh yep. Wiki says Brad's show started in 2007. So not super old but still 8 years.

I can't seem to find anything on the original airing dates of the Good Dog show.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> Ooh yep. Wiki says Brad's show started in 2007. So not super old but still 8 years.
> 
> I can't seem to find anything on the original airing dates of the Good Dog show.


Yeah, but Cesar's show started 5 years before that. I couldn't find anything on the dates of the show either, but what I could find made it appear to be a fairly recent show as well. Well, recent as in the last decade anyway, lol.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Yeah, but Cesar's show started 5 years before that. I couldn't find anything on the dates of the show either, but what I could find made it appear to be a fairly recent show as well. Well, recent as in the last decade anyway, lol.


Interesting. Maybe I didn't know about him if he was on a particular network or something. We just had the basic cable back in the day, lol. I didn't realize he'd been around that long.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> Interesting. Maybe I didn't know about him if he was on a particular network or something. We just had the basic cable back in the day, lol. I didn't realize he'd been around that long.


Yeah, his show started in 2002, and while I haven't been involved in the dog world like Johnny has, I can honestly say that I'd never heard of the whole pack alpha, dominance theory garbage until his show came out either.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

not sure I understand if it is not the same as heavy hand correction as a form of teaching the command was what the military was teaching in 1987... the whole stand over dog move chain jerk NO Sit it was a trip and the reason I always got yelled at for not doing it...


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Sadly, yes, although I don't think he's on the air anymore, at least I hope not. There's a FB group devoted solely to getting him off the air, lol. I'm a member, and it's been pretty quiet lately. He's still got many of his minions training and promoting his brand of cruelty out in Ontario though, sadly. He's also infamous for getting his lawyers to shutdown any videos that show him abusing dogs, and threatening to sue anyone who publicly disagrees with his methods. There's a bunch of people in the group whom he's attempted to bully that way. Hasn't worked though, lol. His minions tend to try to use the same tactics too.


Yikes! I dont think that would fly in the states, you know with the first amendment and all. Heh heh ... almost makes me want to make a "anti Brad Pattison page just to see what would happen.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I remember reading an old book before I got Willow (90s, and pretty sure it was not a new book then) advocating eating before your dog, spitting in the dog's bowl (because dogs lick the alpha's mouth, so spit must be the thing?), not allowing the dog to sit on furniture, walking through doors before the dog, etc. Oh, and Monks of New Skete were the ones who started the whole alpha roll thing and that was in the 70s I think? I just don't think that everybody had heard of those things because they weren't on TV. Cesar has no new ideas, he just gave everything new-agey words to appeal to newer audiences.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yikes! I dont think that would fly in the states, you know with the first amendment and all. Heh heh ... almost makes me want to make a "anti Brad Pattison page just to see what would happen.


Really? You have way more frivolous law suits out there than we do, lol. And it was youtube, and American site, where the majority of the videos were posted and then forced to be deleted. So yeah, it does happen there.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Really? You have way more frivolous law suits out there than we do, lol. And it was youtube, and American site, where the majority of the videos were posted and then forced to be deleted. So yeah, it does happen there.


Key word being frivolous, most are thrown out or end up in small claims civil court. The videos being taken down has to do with You tubes policies I think not the fact whether it is illegal or not.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your help!!!! You've put my mind at ease a little bit!!!

So a few questions:

1) I've noticed that he likes to mouth me both when he likes or dislikes something. For example, if I am giving him a tummy rub or a good scratch and he's clearly enjoying it on his back with his legs wide open, he reaches his mouth around to try and chew on my hand....... I try and give him a chew toy or something to chew on instead. Then if he dislikes something, he turns his mouth around to mouth me as well. Not a bite or nip, just an annoyed moan and mouthing my hand if I try and brush him. What is an appropriate response to this? I don't want to scare him or teach him the wrong thing... but certainly want it to be VERY clear that putting his mouth anywhere near human flesh will not be tolerated. I've been saying "NO!" firmly and withholding the positive attention immediately (petting, scratching, etc) for months now, and clearly that isn't working. And if he does it as a negative thing against me doing something he doesn't like, I don't want to teach him the wrong thing there either. Any advice? I'm sure the fact that he's been allowed to get away with this behaviour for months now is one of the reasons he's quick to react/nip in situations that he's extremely anxious. 

2) I've read that some people think he's fearful of us grabbing his collar......... I don't think that's the case. In the case of my husband going to grab his collar to remove him from the bedroom, he had a bone, so in that case it was resource guarding. He's never shown any sort of anxiety or tension when it comes to us handling his collar...... but I will be mindful of it and try and get him to move/come on his own accord from now on. 

3) Does stranger anxiety increase around a year of age? He'd never been fearful of guests before.....in fact he was always really playful and excited. The only "incident" that happened leading up to his "attack" on our guest was a day that he accidentally escaped out of the house un-leashed, and a neighbour who was out in the yard lost his mind!!! Oscar ran towards him (to say hi), and this man started screaming bloody murder!! "Ahhh! Ahhhh! What IS THAT THING? AHHHH AHHHH!!!". Oscar didn't go near him, he just stopped a few feet away and barked, and then ran around the yards a bit before I caught him and brought him back in. Could the man's reaction have startled him/caused him to become anxious around other strangers? (He was also a darker skinned person). He is totally fine with strangers when he is off leash at puppy class, and goes up to people, tail wagging, and lets them pet him. I know that dogs tend to act more anxious when they are on a leash, because they can't "flight" so they tend to "fight" instead when they feel uncomfortable. Could his recent anxiety towards strangers be the fact that we've been leashing him to greet guests, when we didn't used to? (It wasn't an issue when he was 25 lbs, but now that he's 70 lbs and jumping all over people, we started to leash him to hold him back until he calms down, telling the guests to just ignore him until he lies down). Or could this neighbours reaction have caused him to be more fearful of new people?


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

1. Others may disagree, I'm certainly not an expert on aggression, but it hasn't been my experience that mouthy dogs are more likely to bite in other situations. I would rather own a dog who knows how to engage and gentle mouthing because if the dog gets annoyed enough to bite he will understand something about bite inhibition. The only times I've been bitten hard have been dogs who never mouthed or put teeth to skin normally, but when they got scared and over reacted they lashed out hard.

My dogs can mouth me during play, but I don't allow mouthing when I'm doing something like brushing or grooming or things they don't like. 

When you tell him no and withdraw your attention, what do you do exactly? Do you get up and completely walk away from him? What is his reaction?

2. If he doesn't have a problem with collar grabs in general then I would focus on the RG. Have you looked into the book "Mine!" yet? It lays out the standard positive protocol for dealing with RG.

3. Yes, dogs can and do go through fear periods around a year old where they can have increasesd stranger danger or act weird towards things they were previously fine with. And it's also possible that the neighbor's strange reaction really startled him and he's still processing it and figuring it out.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Older puppies and young adult dogs can go in and out of stranger suspicious phases, absolutely.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Ya, he seems to know bite inhibition. I used to play rough with him as a puppy, so I'd yell "OWW!" really loud if he ever mouthed me too hard. So I've never been bitten to the point of drawing blood. At least not since he had those tiny sharp baby teeth.

Yes, I've started to immediately raise my hands up as soon as he bites/mouths and say "ahhh ahh ahh, no" to mark the behaviour and then I get up and walk away, and go sit at my computer and ignore him. He either just sits there looking at me, or he'll let out a big sign and go lie down on the floor. (He used to follow me and try and pester me to keep playing, so it seems like he's learned). 

Yes, I bought the book MINE! and read it back when I was having issues at 4-5 months. I can re-read it and try it again now that he's being fed kibble instead. I haven't noticed him showing any RG behaviours with me since that time, but I was the one working with him. He snapped at my husband, so perhaps he trusts me and not my husband. I am the one that feeds him/gives him bones, and he usually just follows me around the house with them, eating them at my feet...... so I didn't think he was RGing them. It's not like he's taking them into some private place out of the way....... he's trying to eat it right in front of me! So to me, that doesn't really signal distrust/fear......... does it?

Ya, I noticed increased barking at strangers after that incident, especially if other neighbours are out in their yards. He used to only bark at people approaching the house, now he'll bark at anyone that is at their own house, minding their own business. He was even barking at people sitting on their porch as we walked by. (Although I'm not sure if this was a reaction to me tensing up and looking down at him to see what he'd do, because I've started trying to stay calm, walk with my head up and confident when we approach people, and not look down at him to see what he'll do and he seems to be better)..... 

Do they eventually grow out of the stranger danger? Or does it essentially have to be re-trained that strangers are ok?


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

And yes, I've watched a lot of Zak George videos, and have been marking his correct behaviours with "YES!"....... and his incorrect behaviours with "Ahhh ahhh ahh"......


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

If he's not RGing with you, then that's great. Looks like he might need a refresher with your husband. Dogs don't generalize that well and a dog with RG tendencies will need more work to generalize the new behavior than one who doesn't really care about RG in the first place.

ETA: I also wanted to say that it sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. I'm sure it was terrifying to have him react like that to someone in your home, but overall it seems like you have a good handle on most of his behavior and I don't see any huge red flags of things he's doing that are so awful.

And yes, to some extent they grow out of some of that weirdness. Fear periods are just that, periods. You can push a dog too far during that time and potentially make them fearful of that thing permanently, but with gentle handling most come through it as more stable adults. There are things that totally wierded my dog out at 13 months and caused him to bark that he can now walk past without a second glance.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Just be consistent through the fear periods and continue to gently work desensitization and positive association building. Don't avoid, and don't push too hard/over threshold. 

Realize that your dog may never love strangers but it is reasonable to expect him to be tolerant of their presence even if he doesn't choose to interact with them.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

So in the case of the dog-dog aggression, is that also common around a year old? 

In dog class (which ranges between 10-20 dogs of various breeds/ages) as a puppy of 4-6 months, he was very playful and annoying, constantly being told off by the older dogs (which I was told was normal, the older dogs essentially teach the puppies what is and isn't appropriate behaviour). Then at like 6-12 months he became extremely submissive, rolling over and showing his belly to anyone regardless of size/breed (even puppies younger/smaller then him). There was this one dog in class who was always picking on him. No matter what Oscar was doing.... minding his own business, playing peacefully with other dogs, this one dog would just come up to him and lunge at him, pin him to the ground, nip at him, snarl at him. So I could tell Oscar was anxious..... he'd try and hide in the long grass by the fence, or stick by my side. Now lately, he's started to growl/snap at some of the younger dogs in class. I've never seen him do this at the dog park where most dogs are older then him. Usually he just likes to chase/be chased/hump and fetch sticks. Is this him showing aggression towards dogs, or just simply that he's now putting the younger dogs in their place? I didn't see exactly what had happened, but there was a group of dogs over in the corner, we heard some some snarling, and the trainer went in and grabbed him and leashed him for the rest of the class for "mis-behaving," and essentially told me that he has turned aggressive and probably never allowed off leash around other dogs again. But then again, I'd asked her about the aggression in the other situations, and so she was probably on heightened alert. (This was the same lady that got us into the raw diet/told us to leave him with her for 6 weeks to "teach him how to live in a dog pack", etc). He'd been barking like crazy at the start of class in the parking lot before we were let into the yard....... but was fine for the on-leash lead training part of class, and the first 10 mins of the off-leash socialization part. So I don't understand why it's ok for some dogs to correct other dogs sometimes, yet this time it was not ok. Like I said, I didn't see exactly what happened, so maybe he'd taken it further then a small correction and was causing trouble. But why was this other dog allowed to pick on my dog for months and that was totally fine by the trainer, yet if Oscar makes one attempt to do that to another dog, he's essentially labelled as dangerous?

I'm now afraid to bring him to the off-leash dog conservation area now, because I wouldn't be comfortable jumping in the middle of a dog fight if something were to happen (nor do I want to be responsible for him harming another dog). He'd never shown ANY aggression towards any dog so far, besides some humping here and there, but he was an intact male up until this week.....but I'd never seen him snarl, bite, nip, nothing. 

At least at class, he was socialized in an environment where this woman was in charge and knew what to do/would jump in there and break things up, etc. But since we've determined she's not the best match for us and our dog, I don't want to bring him back there. 

I think that socializing him is important.......this conservation area gave him a chance to run, catch balls, play in the river, and generally get exercise that we just can't give him on a leash. He's never shown any sort of anxiety when there........ do you think it's ok to keep bringing him, and maybe just cut out this crazy dog lady's class?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

without seeing it, I cant say for sure but I dont think this dog is aggressive. I think he might have some social awkwardness, we have a dog like that, and she is fine with most dogs but absolutely can NOT be left with other females without being watched, and she couldnt live with another female, either; she will dog other females and when they finally tell her to back off, a fight ensues. 

other dogs have never been a problem for Lincoln, for him its people, especially strange men, which is weird because he lives with a man.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

But how can he have social awkwardness, if he loves playing with other dogs at the conservation area? As soon as he sees another dog in the distance, he bolts towards them...... approaches and does the whole sniff/say hello thing, and then tries to get them to play chase with him. He seems to care less about people...... if there are people without dogs he doesn't seem to care about them. Or you mean awkwardness towards people?


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

From everyone's advice/opinions, it sounds to me like he has anxiety, mixed with some 1 year old stranger fear, and lack of guidance (our fault).

Is that a fair assessment?


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

It's really impossible to say what happened with the other dog without seeing it. 

Maybe he was being rude and the other dog corrected him and he didn't take kindly to the correction. Maybe vice versa. Maybe he's getting dog selective as he matures (only likes certain dogs). Maybe they came across something both wanted and they got into a tiff over it.

Who knows?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Older puppies and young adult dogs can go in and out of stranger suspicious phases, absolutely.


Oh my god, yes. This. 

Molly has wobbled back and forth between wanting to climb people like a tree and shove her tongue down their throat and growling, barking, and backing away from them. Sometimes? She's done BOTH to the same person within 15 minutes. We're at 15 months now and it's better, but from between about 10-11 months and 14 months she was kind of the most conflicted ball of emotions I've ever laid eyes on.

Also, frankly, a lot of this sounds like Molly. Who is a massively insecure dog. The biggest thing that's helped her has been consistent exposure but protecting her from having to (or being allowed to) interact with the public. I put a harness on her that says 'no touch, no talk, no eye-contact'. I don't let strangers pet her. I crate her when people are in the house. I don't let her interact with dogs that aren't well known to her. She's feeling safer and learning that that external stuff is irrelevant to her (and not going to hurt her, bother her, OR be a source of good stuff and thereby put her desire for food and love in conflict with her insecurity). As a result she's growing some danged good focus and turning into a really solid dog. 

But it's been a LONG road with her. She was worse around a year but frankly she's had issues since 5-6 months old.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

dogs are weird.. one day packing the dogs up to go, and my yearlng pup decides she is afraid of the truck,, she is not wanting to go into the truck?? Before all you had to do was open the door and she jump right in.. So I left her home, and took the other dogs. That went on for 2 or 3 months.. I'd open the door of the truck to see her response if not I let her back into the house and go without her. One time she jumped right in and she is my go to gal when it' is fall and winter and throws a fit during the summer months when it's too hot to take her.. She also when through a phase of chewing lots of stuff.. I didn't worry about her, that was "her" being a puppy growing into maturity.. Control my environment for more puppy safe .. Never had a chew-er like that before lol ... extra puppy proofing for me... and she grew past it... my newst puppy is sound sensitive.. bark bark bark bark.. can't watch FB video's, jets flying over, the wind picking up, thunder... she is charging and chasing lots of noises.. she has been in and out of that phase about 3 times her first year.. done nothing except take my ear phones off when she does it as the ear phones really exaggerate the vibration of her barking. Dogs can have and go through lots of sensitivities,, give them the opportunity to learn about their nervous system... you get startled, scared, or upset, or over excited and your flooded with all kinds of sensations.. it's a part of development that you learn to go in and out of stimulus and you can control it as your older having the experience of having extremes of stuff happening.. Main thing is not to make it a huge event ,,that it becomes what they learn and get stuck there, so I don't want to escalate geeky stages... I'll sit on the couch and secretly think to my self lol .. geesh that is awful I hope she grows out of it... lol lol lol ... for my crazy ones,, they do figure things out on their own and move on pretty quickly. don't over worry give it some time to see where they go with it on their own..


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You didn't actually see what happened with the other dog, so it's hard to say. 

Personally, I would probably stick to situations where I was likely to encounter just a few other dogs at a time, at least for awhile. That will keep everyone's excitement and arousal lower and give you more opportunity to observe what's going on.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yes, it's common for dogs to get less dog-tolerant as they age. I wouldn't be in any training class that allowed dogs free play time like that unless they were baby puppies. Dogs don't have to like every dog, and expecting them to all go in there and get along is asking for trouble. There's also not much point.

Match your dogs up with others that he plays well with, and don't worry about him not getting along with every dog. Nothing you described says dog aggression to me at this point. It just sounds like a dog who is less tolerant of shenanigans.

At a year old, you're not socializing him anymore. That's a specific period of puppy development. Forcing him to meet and play with other random dogs doesn't serve a point anymore.

You haven't shared anything that makes me think he wouldn't continue to be fine at a large off leash area. He's not attacking dogs or going for blood, he's just snarking.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> But how can he have social awkwardness, if he loves playing with other dogs at the conservation area? As soon as he sees another dog in the distance, he bolts towards them...... approaches and does the whole sniff/say hello thing, and then tries to get them to play chase with him. He seems to care less about people...... if there are people without dogs he doesn't seem to care about them. Or you mean awkwardness towards people?


Just like teenagers can have periods of social awkwardness, so can dogs.

And I also agree about play time being inappropriate for any dog over 6 months, baby puppies, yes, but older teenage dogs and adults, no. They have to start learning that training class isnt all rough housing and messing around. They need to learn control and structure at some point.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I went back to your original post and re-read it, taking into account the later info you shared. Aside from the RG stuff, it sounds like he's more leash reactive than anything else. You mentioned he barks and lunges at strangers outside, and has started to do it with guests since you starting keep him on a leash when people come over.

I would check out the reactivity sticky for resources. Lots of dogs are reactive, and sometimes they sound like cujo, but really they are insecure and trying to make the scary thing go away. They make take that to the next level of real aggression, but only a small percentage do. For many it's just the fact that the leash makes them frustrated and they lash out barking and carrying on. It's also pretty common for reactivity to show up around this age. 

It's not always the easiest thing to train out, and it takes some work, but it might make you feel better to know that it's pretty common and doesn't mean the dog is a bite risk or super aggressive or anything. Not sure this is what's going on with your dog, but it's possible and I don't know if it's been mentioned yet.


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Was this snarking at the other dog in play group before or after his neuter? I ask because you said he was JUST neutered this week. If he was in a play group his shortly after getting neutered he may have just been more liking to react negatively because he was in pain. Needs some rest time to heal up before being in a play group.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

It was the Saturday before his neuter. I've kept him indoor/resting since the neuter. I won't be taking him back to any off-leash area for at least 2 weeks to give him time to recover.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

I think it was a mistake to neuter him unless it was in a contract and even then I would of tried to reason with them. The testicles produce a lot of hormones and especially some which help deal with confidence and thus fear periods but it's too late now so that's just for future reference.

I really think you should muzzle train with the video I posted, that will give you confidence that you can socialise him without a huge worry on your shoulders. Also look up long lines if you want to take him to the recreation area still but are worried about where he's going to get himself into off leash.

Something else that stood out to me is the fact you let him run up to other dogs in the park, I would stop doing that and start introducing your dog in a calm and controlled manner. Letting your dog run up to other dogs over threshold (shown by humping etc) is intimidating and dangerous and if he picks the wrong dog he could be seriously corrected or over corrected and that will not help your situation and may be why he has been corrected in the past.

He may see the training class as a negative now which is why he's reacting more due to the other dogs so I would find a new one or switch to another way of socializing him.

I would muzzle train to get yourself and him some confidence, calm down intros and do some BAT/LAT distance work to increase his threshold and confidence around people and dogs.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> I think it was a mistake to neuter him unless it was in a contract and even then I would of tried to reason with them. The testicles produce a lot of hormones and especially some which help deal with confidence and thus fear periods but it's too late now so that's just for future reference.


A veterinary behaviorist told me that there's no hard evidence of that. Lots of dogs are neutered at a time that coincides with a fear period naturally, so it may not be related to the neuter at all.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

The testies are part of the endocrine system and help to produce and regulate hormones including ones that gives your dog confidence, deal with scary situations etc so there's a lot of science to support it. 
I'm not saying removing testicles causes fear periods but it won't help or may even do damage if the dog is fearful because it's lost part of the process of producing hormones to deal with the situations.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> The testies are part of the endocrine system and help to produce and regulate hormones including ones that gives your dog confidence, deal with scary situations etc so there's a lot of science to support it.


Could you provide links to some of the science?

Not disagreeing with you necessarily, but I haven't seen any credible studies that support either neutering or not neutering for behavioral issues.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

I personally am not aware of any but it's basic science that if you take away part of a regulatory system and a huge part of producing testosterone then you're obviously going to impact negatively on the dog in most cases especially when they're still maturing.

It's already well documented that neutering can cause behavioral problems to worsen and it's not very reliable with fixing them so there has to be some connection.

Obviously not very scientific but the basic science behind it "makes sense".

Hopefully someone in the future will do a study.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> I personally am not aware of any but it's basic science that if you take away part of a regulatory system and a huge part of producing testosterone then you're obviously going to impact negatively on the dog in most cases especially when they're still maturing.
> 
> It's already well documented that neutering can cause behavioral problems to worsen and it's not very reliable with fixing them so there has to be some connection.
> 
> ...


LOL You probably shouldn't claim that there is "lots of science to support" something that you later call "not very scientific." A lot of things that seem "obvious" really aren't once they're actually studied. This is how internet rumors get started!


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> LOL You probably shouldn't claim that there is "lots of science to support" something that you later call "not very scientific." A lot of things that seem "obvious" really aren't once they're actually studied. This is how internet rumors get started!


Indeed! Correlation =/= causation after all. It used to make sense that the earth was flat because the horizon line was flat.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> I personally am not aware of any but it's basic science that if you take away part of a regulatory system and a huge part of producing testosterone then you're obviously going to impact negatively on the dog in most cases especially when they're still maturing.
> 
> It's already well documented that neutering can cause behavioral problems to worsen and it's not very reliable with fixing them so there has to be some connection.
> 
> ...


"Basic science"? 300 years ago they thought leaching someone to remove 'ill humors' from their blood when they were sick was "basic science". 

I usually find it appropriate to not quote opinions based on assumptions as facts unless I have some scientific backing to prove it. 

Doing a preliminary search on the behavioral side effects of castration brings up a bunch of ASPCA and veterinary propaganda that is being utilized to brainwash the dog owning population that altering a dog is necessary for its mental and physical health.

This is from Ian Dunbar: 



> The behavioral endocrinology of dogs is quite unique. Whereas the castration of most mammals appears to eliminate secondary sexual characteristics, the masculine characteristics of dog behavior appear to be emancipated from adult hormone levels. Whether or not a male dog will lift his leg when urinating, sniff and mount bitches and be more aggressive than females has all been preprogrammed by fetal testosterone in utero. Adult castration has absolutely no direct effect on urination posture, sexual preference or hierarchical rank.


This study proposes just the opposite of what you're saying, and indicates that neutering decreases aggression towards owners and strangers.

ETA: I'm not necessarily agreeing with Dunbar, or the results of the survey, merely using them to point out that even doing a search for 'basic science' turns up results that are in direct contradiction to your assumptions about the results of neutering a male dog.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

I'm not saying that it's fact, I said (or meant) is there's a lot of science that underpins it and has been a lot of evidence that neutering can make the problems worse and rarely fixes them. 
Yes if you fix a well balanced male dog it may not have adverse effects just like a prong collar wouldn't. Used on an unstable dog that is going through a fear period and it might cause the problem to worsen.

As for that study, he's talking about behavioral issues that are documented to not be fixed by neutering because they're habits like marking, humping etc. He says nothing about the behavioral side apart from it doesn't effect their rank in a pack or whatever ( can't read because I forgot to quote) which we all know doesn't apply to dogs anyway.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> I'm not saying that it's fact, I said (or meant) is there's a lot of science that underpins it and has been a lot of evidence that neutering can make the problems worse and rarely fixes them.


I don't think you are using either "science" or "evidence" correctly. If there is hard science and evidence to prove your point, you should provide citations. Otherwise you're just giving your opinion and saying that it's obvious because of science - which doesn't mean anything at all.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> *I'm not saying that it's fact, I said (or meant) is there's a lot of science that underpins it and has been a lot of evidence that neutering can make the problems worse and rarely fixes them.*
> Yes if you fix a well balanced male dog it may not have adverse effects just like a prong collar wouldn't. Used on an unstable dog that is going through a fear period and it might cause the problem to worsen.
> 
> As for that study, he's talking about behavioral issues that are documented to not be fixed by neutering because they're habits like marking, humping etc. He says nothing about the behavioral side apart from it doesn't effect their rank in a pack or whatever ( can't read because I forgot to quote) which we all know doesn't apply to dogs anyway.


If there's "a lot" of evidence, why can't you link any to us? I'm confused, because you say there's a lot and it's a commonly known fact, but when pressed for evidence, you say "I personally am not aware of any but it's basic science". 

So there's a lot, but you're personally not aware of any of it?


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

The science I'm talking about is already in the thread, there's no need for a study to prove that the testies are part of the endocrine system and that they produce and regulate hormones such as testosterone and that's vital in producing a stable if they're going through a fear period. That's what is under pinning my opinion and is science.

It's well documented that neutering can cause issues to progress, I know of a few personally and I'm sure if you searched this forum you'll find a lot more cases aswell.

It's not like I'm standing here yelling I'm right and I have a lot more science behind that opinion than most people who just say "I heard it from a neighbour".

Ofcourse I could be wrong but a lot of cases point towards it as well as the basic science I'm talking about.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> The science I'm talking about is already in the thread, there's no need for a study to prove that the testies are part of the endocrine system and that they produce and regulate hormones such as testosterone and that's vital in producing a stable if they're going through a fear period. That's what is under pinning my opinion and is science.
> 
> It's well documented that neutering can cause issues to progress, I know of a few personally and I'm sure if you searched this forum you'll find a lot more cases aswell.
> 
> ...


Actually, we just had a thread not too long ago about the effects of premature neutering. It is 16 pages long, actually, and had many contributors. While there were many (heated) arguments about the physical drawbacks of pediatric or early neuters, not ONCE in that thread did I see someone say that early altering can cause fear aggression. 

I tend to avoid people who say things like "basic science" and that things are "well documented" but can't produce documentation. I'm a researcher at heart - if you're going to present me with a fact that goes against most of what I hear, I'm going to want proof outside of the words "there are a lot of cases". 

What you are doing is actually worse than someone saying "I heard it from my neighbor". People who hear things from their neighbors are usually rather easy to present facts to and have conversations with. Unlike people who are backed by some sort of invisible and unapproachable "basic science". 

You and the "I heard it from my neighbor" people are in the same camp, UNTIL you can link to some sort of study that backs your ideas (which shouldn't be hard, because apparently there are "a lot" of them around?). Then it's a different story. But until then, it's all hearsay. And in this case, it can be damaging hearsay because you're telling OP that her dog's issues are stemming from early neutering when actually they are most likely rooted in a completely different source.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I have heard many anecdotes that neutering decreases aggression and improves focus. You've heard opposite anecdotes, that it doesn't improve behavior and in fact makes dog more fearful or aggressive.

Neither of these are science or prove anything in any way.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Read what im saying. I did not say this problem stems from early neutering or anything of the sort. I said that neutering can make it worse, have no effect and can help with certain problems but not fear based problems. That's why I wouldn't recommend it because it can have that or any of the other effects.

I'm saying that neutering is altering the endocrine system which is used to regulate and produce various hormones which are used in controlling reactions. That is fact... you could study 400 dogs and you'll find removing the endocrine system reduces hormone production and regulation?? Where is there a need for a study here apart from the part that neutering while in a fear period can make a dogs worse. Yes I can't prove that because there's no study I'm aware of but if you apply logic (that's as far as this part of my opinion goes ) then reducing testosterone levels will effect confidence and thus make the fear period worse. That's all im saying.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Read what im saying. I did not say this problem stems from early neutering or anything of the sort. I said that neutering can make it worse, have no effect and can help with certain problems but not fear based problems. That's why I wouldn't recommend it because it can have that or any of the other effects.
> 
> I'm saying that neutering is altering the endocrine system which is used to regulate and produce various hormones which are used in controlling reactions. That is fact... you could study 400 dogs and you'll find removing the endocrine system reduces hormone production and regulation?? Where is there a need for a study here apart from the part that neutering while in a fear period can make a dogs worse. Yes I can't prove that because there's no study I'm aware of but if you apply logic (that's as far as this part of my opinion goes ) then reducing testosterone levels will effect confidence and thus make the fear period worse. That's all im saying.


What you're doing is called making a presumption, not stating a fact.

You're asserting that based on what you know, this thing causes that thing. You don't have any evidence to prove that, other than just what you believe.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> What you're doing is called making a presumption, not stating a fact.
> 
> You're asserting that based on what you know, this thing causes that thing. You don't have any evidence to prove that, other than just what you believe.


Yes that's what I'm doing. I haven't denied that once! Half this forum is based off of that and to tell me otherwise is bloody ridiculous. Whether you want to keep harping on about that or move on to address the OP situation is up to you.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Yes that's what I'm doing. I haven't denied that once! Half this forum is based off of that and to tell me otherwise is bloody ridiculous. Whether you want to keep harping on about that or move on to address the OP situation is up to you.


So what you should be saying is "I don't know if neutering has an effect or not", not stating your opinion that it does like a fact. Or stating it as an opinion IE "I think that..." instead of "reducing testosterone levels *will* effect confidence and thus make the fear period worse"


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Read what im saying. I did not say this problem stems from early neutering or anything of the sort. I said that neutering can make it worse, have no effect and can help with certain problems but not fear based problems. That's why I wouldn't recommend it because it can have that or any of the other effects.
> 
> I'm saying that neutering is altering the endocrine system which is used to regulate and produce various hormones which are used in controlling reactions. That is fact... you could study 400 dogs and you'll find removing the endocrine system reduces hormone production and regulation?? Where is there a need for a study here apart from the part that neutering while in a fear period can make a dogs worse. Yes I can't prove that because there's no study I'm aware of but if you apply logic (that's as far as this part of my opinion goes ) then reducing testosterone levels will effect confidence and thus make the fear period worse. That's all im saying.


I'm not sure where you're getting your link between testosterone levels and "confidence", or even how you're defining "confidence" as it relates to dogs. 

I'd argue that "confidence" (if I understand your basic meaning of the term) is based on one major determining factor - how the owner trains the dog to handle new or different situations. Otherwise we'd never have any "confident" female dogs because their testosterone levels are low, right?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> The science I'm talking about is already in the thread, there's no need for a study to prove that the testies are part of the endocrine system and that they produce and regulate hormones such as testosterone...


This is fact, yes.



> ...and that's vital in producing a stable if they're going through a fear period.


This is your opinion. If you're going to make this bold statement AND claim that it is basic science, then you need to back it up. There are no studies I'm aware of that either prove or disprove this.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

sassafras said:


> This is fact, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> This is your opinion. If you're going to make this bold statement AND claim that it is basic science, then you need to back it up. There are no studies I'm aware of that either prove or disprove this.


Yes that's my opinion, hence why I said I can't produce studies and I was honest about that. I don't think it's necessary to announce when going from factual to opinion in dialogue. People openly state that neutering can have a positive effect on dogs but I've never once seen a study given or even asked for on this forum? Maybe it's because I'm going against the grain which is why I produced some basic science as a starting point for my opinion. Just because there hasn't been a study doesn't mean I'm right or wrong. Maybe im infact correct and theres yet to be a study performed, perhaps I'm wrong.

@Hiraeth, Testosterone isn't the only chemical regulated by the testicles! If altering the endocrine system had no effect on these suchs things then you would see no effect from neutering a dog but you often do and depending on the dogs "problem" then you see different effects, pointing towards neutering can have negative, positive and neutral effects on the dog, especially one in a fear period. My point was that neutering was risky because they could of potentially made the problem worse, hopefully it had no effect or made it better (doubt this one) but we will have to wait and see. That is my stand point on neutering, it's risky and rarely fixes anything so I do not infact recommend it.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Seems like these days you need to have a PhD in animal behaviour, and run your own controlled studies just to own a dog!


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Yes that's my opinion, hence why I said I can't produce studies and I was honest about that. I don't think it's necessary to announce when going from factual to opinion in dialogue. People openly state that neutering can have a positive effect on dogs but I've never once seen a study given or even asked for on this forum?


Um.. yea it kind of is necessary. Particularly when you start using 'known science' to frame your opinion as fact.

Also are you kidding? Studies are linked to and asked for on a regular basis ESPECIALLY on the topic of neutering. To back up that fact (not opinion), I can link you to the spay/neuter threads where it's happened.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

The general public essentially has NO IDEA about dogs, yet everyone has an opinion.

We were told by our vet to neuter him at 5 months. It was the responsible thing to do. We held off until 12 months because we thought we were doing what was best for him, allowing him to grow and mature intact. 

We got a lot of slack from people, claiming that we were being irresponsible dog parents, and that it was ridiculous that we were waiting. "I've never heard of that before...." and "You are causing him to be aggressive by not neutering him"..... etc, etc. 

Then our BEHAVIOURIST (yup, the one with a PhD in this stuff) told us to neuter him ASAP. 

So really, is there any HARD SCIENCE to back up one vs. the other? Or is it all hearsay? Someones neighbours dog became more/less aggressive after the neuter? Or someone's dog on a forum?


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Um.. yea it kind of is necessary. Particularly when you start using 'known science' to frame your opinion as fact.
> 
> Also are you kidding? Studies are linked to and asked for on a regular basis ESPECIALLY on the topic of neutering. To back up that fact (not opinion), I can link you to the spay/neuter threads where it's happened.


Feel free to show me a study that shows neutering has little/no effect on fearful dogs or even dogs in general?


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Yes that's my opinion, hence why I said I can't produce studies and I was honest about that.* I don't think it's necessary to announce when going from factual to opinion in dialogue.* _People openly state that neutering can have a positive effect on dogs but I've never once seen a study given or even asked for on this forum?_ Maybe it's because I'm going against the grain which is why I produced some basic science as a starting point for my opinion.
> 
> @Hiraeth, Testosterone isn't the only chemical regulated by the testicles! If altering the endocrine system had no effect on these suchs things then you would see no effect from neutering a dog but you often do and depending on the dogs "problem" then you see different effects, pointing towards neutering can have negative, positive and neutral effects on the dog, especially one in a fear period. My point was that neutering was risky because they could of potentially made the problem worse, hopefully it had no effect or made it better (doubt this one) but we will have to wait and see.


Bolded statement - Hahaha. It's not necessary to state when transitioning from opinion to fact on a forum in which you're giving other people potentially life-altering advice?

So I can say things like "Golden Retrievers are great pets who do well with kids. They need almost no training to become good family dogs. Mastiffs are good guard dogs and protective of their home. But every one I have met is vicious and will attack children if given the chance!" (Fact/opinion/fact/opinion, in case anyone was keeping track, and for the record, every Mastiff I've met has been a big sweetheart). It is VITAL that you indicate when you're stating an opinion versus stating a fact. Which is indicated by the multiple forum members who came down on you for stating your opinions as though they're scientific fact.

Italicized statement - I'm pretty sure that the general informed consensus on this forum is that the largest determining factor in a dog's behavior is training, and that altering a dog is not a "cure all" for behavioral issues. If someone stated that neutering/spaying a dog is going to positively alter its behavior, I would immediately ask them where they got their facts and ask for links.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Feel free to show me a study that shows neutering has little/no effect on fearful dogs or even dogs in general?


Feel free to show us a study that it does. You're the one who made the assertion, the onus is on you to back it up.

From what I've read here, there are no conclusive studies that show neutering has any impact on behaviour. If you know otherwise, feel free to bring them forward.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

There MUST be controlled studies done on the subject of male neutering, no? I mean, it's such a common thing.......

Neutering happens at a time in a pups life when he is going through a lot of changes. Some may get less aggressive, some may get more aggressive. But does that really have anything to do with the neuter, or do they just occur at roughly the same time?

Our vet told us to neuter him at 5 months. We also started to see the RG and early signs of aggression at around the same time. Had we neutered him then, we may have attributed his behavioural issues to the neuter. Since they were not present prior to it, and have now surfaced "as a result". So I may have been "that person", claiming that the neuter made my dog more aggressive. I don't have a second dog of the exact same temperament that I left intact to compare to, so why wouldn't I blame the neuter?


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Um.. yea it kind of is necessary. Particularly when you start using 'known science' to frame your opinion as fact.
> 
> Also are you kidding? *Studies are linked to and asked for on a regular basis ESPECIALLY on the topic of neutering*. To back up that fact (not opinion), I can link you to the spay/neuter threads where it's happened.


So are they just asked for and people say no then? Exactly like I did? because there's none but lots of supporting evidence?

Ofcourse if you're making statements like that when it's impossible to discern if they're an opinion you can pop in a IMO. Just like I popped in a I THINK.... What I was saying is read between the lines, I do not have to say IMO at the beginning of every opinion I state but most the time it's obvious and if not then you question me like people did and I say yes or no to a study I have or haven't got and then you for sure know it's opinion.

We're focusing on stupid details now. Please get back on topic of the thread.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> So are they just asked for and people say no then? Exactly like I did? because there's none but lots of supporting evidence?
> 
> Ofcourse if you're making statements like that when it's impossible to discern if they're an opinion you can pop in a IMO. Just like I popped in a I THINK.... What I was saying is read between the lines, I do not have to say IMO at the beginning of every opinion I state but most the time it's obvious and if not then you question me like people did and I say yes or no to a study I have or haven't got and then you for sure know it's opinion.
> 
> We're focusing on stupid details now. Please get back on topic of the thread.


I'm confused. Do you want me to link you to the studies that have been posted in previous threads when asked for?


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

I'm sure testosterone levels may play a role in confidence, but might it also play a role in the actual fear/aggression itself?

I know that humans are totally different then dogs, but I sure as hell was all over the map during puberty (and pregnancy)..  Hormones can certainly affect your mood/behaviour A LOT. So taking them away may help/hinder the dog depending on what was driving the behaviour in the first place?

I'm sure that not all dogs are the same, just like not all people are the same. I'm sure that hormone levels affect dogs in different ways, perhaps some behaviours are caused by certain levels being too high or too low? So removing it may cause different reactions in different dogs depending?

I feel like everything relating to dogs is very generalized across all dogs. Neutering either increases/decreases aggression, and we are trying to say whether or not this statement is a hard fact..... when I'm sure that it depends on the dog?


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> There MUST be controlled studies done on the subject of male neutering, no? I mean, it's such a common thing.......
> 
> Neutering happens at a time in a pups life when he is going through a lot of changes. Some may get less aggressive, some may get more aggressive. But does that really have anything to do with the neuter, or do they just occur at roughly the same time?
> 
> Our vet told us to neuter him at 5 months. We also started to see the RG and early signs of aggression at around the same time. Had we neutered him then, we may have attributed his behavioural issues to the neuter. Since they were not present prior to it, and have now surfaced "as a result". So I may have been "that person", claiming that the neuter made my dog more aggressive. I don't have a second dog of the exact same temperament that I left intact to compare to, so why wouldn't I blame the neuter?


Most of the studies done on neutering focus on the physical side effects of early/late/non neutered dogs. It's harder to do studies on behavior, as there are SO many non-controllable factors that go into how a dog behaves.

Physically, three very prominent studies show a direct correlation between early neutering and HD/ED, CCL, LSA and osteosarcoma. Early neutering also leads to the delay of closure of the growth plates and a lessening of muscle development, meaning that early neutered males will generally be slightly taller and "less filled out" than their non-neutered same age counterparts.

In my personal opinion, 5 months old is too young to be neutering a puppy, and I would not return to a vet who told me that I should neuter a dog that young.

Here's the latest neuter thread, by the way, if anyone cares to read the opinions and evidence presented to inform their own opinions: Here.



Shepador_Oscar said:


> I'm sure testosterone levels may play a role in confidence, but might it also play a role in the actual fear/aggression itself?
> 
> I know that humans are totally different then dogs, but I sure as hell was all over the map during puberty (and pregnancy)..  Hormones can certainly affect your mood/behaviour A LOT. So taking them away may help/hinder the dog depending on what was driving the behaviour in the first place?
> 
> ...


The biggest thing that has a direct correlation to your dog's behavior is you and how you train your dog. High hormone levels, low hormone levels.... It doesn't matter. Many neutered dogs can be aggressive. Many non-neutered dogs are not aggressive at all. Training, training, training.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I'm confused. Do you want me to link you to the studies that have been posted in previous threads when asked for?


I don't even know because I don't know what the studies are about? If they're relevant to the OP so about behavioural changes post neutering then go ahead. If they're about increase in cancers etc which I know there are studies in favour of leaving intact then no it's not relevant to the thread is it.

My point is why should I have to provide studies to tout my opinion on here yet I bet in that neuter thread 100 other people did the exact same I'm doing and based it off personal experience or basic science.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> My point is why should I have to provide studies to tout my opinion on here yet I bet in that neuter thread 100 other people did the exact same I'm doing and based it off personal experience or basic science.


My point is that no, they asked for studies to support claims made and studies were provided. 

Or they stated an opinion and didn't present it as a fact, like you did here. (or if they did present it as fact it would have been dismissed similarly)


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Yes that's my opinion, hence why I said I can't produce studies and I was honest about that. I don't think it's necessary to announce when going from factual to opinion in dialogue.


If you're going to claim it's basic science and that there is a lot of science to support your opinion, then it is. 

IMO.


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

My opinion was mistaken or put forward as fact when it was not meant to be like that. There we go, moving on now or do all have to hammer into someone that they're wrong until they get fed up and quit the forum? It's boring being told the same thing by multiple people and explaining myself 100 times.

The OP is having some issues with his dog, lets address them or atleast have a discussion that is relevent to his needs


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You probably wouldn't have had to explain it 100 times if you hadn't continued to insist your original point. ;-)


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

sassafras said:


> You probably wouldn't have had to explain it 100 times if you hadn't continued to insist your original point. ;-)


Your dog is called Toast and it's pretty, maybe if I compliment your dog you'll think you've got the last laugh and stop going on and on T_T


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Your dog is called Toast and it's pretty, maybe if I compliment your dog you'll think you've got the last laugh and stop going on and on T_T


As opposed to what you're doing right now, lol.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> The OP is having some issues with his dog, lets address them or atleast have a discussion that is relevent to his needs


Agreed. And I'm a "she".... 

So regardless of whether it was good/bad to neuter him, it's already done, and that isn't my question. We waited till he was a year old and now it's done. Whether it will help or not was never my question. I neutered him to prevent unwanted puppies and roaming behaviours, as we like to take him to the off-leash park. 

My questions were to do with resource guarding, territorial guarding the house, inappropriate reactions to guests, and possible dog-dog aggression. I think that most of these have been addressed, and I have a lot of wonderful advice, articles, and suggestions to try, so thank you! I really appreciate it! I wish I would have come here first, before wasting $800 on a behaviourist who essentially did nothing, and gave me poor advice.  

I realize now that a GSD/lab mix was probably a little bit too much dog to handle as inexperienced owners, and that is my fault. I treated him like a toy, let him get away with poor behaviours, and am now suffering as a result. But I do appreciate everyone's insights, as I have a much better handle on how to deal with a dog. I wish that I would have come here sooner!


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> My opinion was mistaken or put forward as fact when it was not meant to be like that. There we go, moving on now or do all have to hammer into someone that they're wrong until they get fed up and quit the forum? It's boring being told the same thing by multiple people and explaining myself 100 times.
> 
> The OP is having some issues with his dog, lets address them or atleast have a discussion that is relevent to his needs


So you're on two different threads right now, contradicting yourself and saying one thing and then backtracking and saying another and getting upset when someone says 'hold on a second here'. Your opinions are put forward as facts in nearly every post I've seen. 

Communicating on a forum is different than communicating IRL. Unlike having a physical conversation with someone, where they can tell what you are trying to insinuate by your tone of voice or mannerisms, all we get is your words. So when you switch between opinion and fact without beginning your opinion statements with "I think" or ending them with "IMO", it's hard to discern their intent. 

I rarely say "in my opinion", or "to me", or "in my experience" in real life, because I don't need to. However, I frequently say those things on the forum so that people can easily understand when I'm communicating a thought versus a fact.

The OP has actually received an abundance of great advice and will hopefully be able to do some research and see what will work for her and her dog


----------



## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

sassafras said:


> As opposed to what you're doing right now, lol.


Im trying to diffuse a situation, you're trying to bait it...


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

I know that it's too early to tell, but since the incident with the guest, I've made some changes and have started to see some positive results.

1) I make him sit/look at me before allowing him to follow me down the stairs, go into rooms, go outside, get any sort of treat or food. It prevents him from charging me when he wants something. He is still difficult to deal with when he's excited (when we come home, in the morning when he gets let out of his crate, etc), but I am hoping we can slowly work up to having him listen while distracted/excited. 

2) During walks, I keep him close to my body, often changing directions or making him sit/stay/look at me before continuing. When we do approach someone/another dog, I've been either avoiding them by turning around or crossing the street, or walking firmly and confidently by if it's just a person sitting on their porch, to show him that there is nothing to get upset about. I've noticed he's less anxious/doesn't bark anymore when I do that. Hopefully I can work with him in our own yard to distract him with good things when people walk by, to get him to stop being nervous when people approach. 

3) I've started to crate him in the bedroom with the door closed and music on when strangers come to the house. (We had a fridge repair guy over yesterday). He barked like crazy the entire time I was downstairs, but I went in there for a bit and sat on the floor in front of him with some kibble, and every time he stopped barking and lied down, I said "yes!" and gave him a treat. Seemed to help him calm down, at least when I was there with him.

4) We've crate trained him at night. Took about two weeks of him barking/yelping/whining/howling at night, but now he'll go in by himself and lie down when I say "Go to your bed" with minimal fuss, and maybe only 5 mins of barking at the very start.

5) We've switched from his raw diet to a low-protein kibble. I've started feeding him the kibble inside, and stay close to him while he eats. I will read the book "Mine!" and start bringing him more enjoyable treats once he gets his "cone of shame" off (from the neuter). The veggie low-protein kibble isn't exactly high up there on the ladder, so it will be easier to bring tastier things to his bowl.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Some things that I'd still like some advice on:

1) Reactivity around the house. He jumps up, runs to the door and barks throughout the day in response to every little noise on the street. I'm trying to train him to come when called when this happens, but he doesn't listen to me when he's in this heightened state of arousal. Any advice on how to decrease his anxiety in this situation? Yelling at him to stop barking, saying no, following him to the door and pulling him away were all things I did in the past that obviously didn't work. Someone suggested I teach him to "speak" on command and then teach him "quiet".... the problem is that he could care less about me/commands when he's in this excited state. Do I just need to keep solidifying the recall/sit/look at me in different situations, slowly building up? How do I slowly build up to a car door closing 4 houses away? haha. I've been trying to de-sensitize him to the doorbell by ringing it myself and having him sit/stay/not react. But he knows it's me....... I'm sure he can sense if someone else is outside. 

2) Jumping up/freaking out when we come home. We have a door separating the garage door and the kitchen, so we've managed to train him to go lie on his mat when we come home. If he breaks from the mat and charges us (and we are close enough), we just go back onto the landing and shut the door. So he's learned that we won't come in until he lies down in his bed. However, the second we are in, he bolts towards us and jumps up almost to face level, runs around in circles whining, and sometimes peeing all over (although this has improved). Any advice on having him stay in the bed until we release him? And upon release, not freak out and jump all over? I don't want to keep a leash on him while we aren't home for safety reasons........ I suppose I could keep some treats in the garage and use one to try and convince him to stay in his bed until I say so..... we've tried ignoring him until he's settled, but pretty hard to ignore a 70 lb ball of energy throwing himself at you at face-level!


----------



## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Even if testosterone did effect a dog and - in this specific case - she did neuter him during a fear period. Testosterone levels don't just drop to nothing IMMEDIATELY after neutering, locking in his current behavior to be set in stone. Everything I've read says hormones can stay in the body for 2-3+ months post neuter. 
So it's not like he doesn't have the testosterone to work through this right now. _If_ that even effects things, it should have nothing to do with _this_ case either way.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

1) puppy's have learning curbs,, letting them work through things is not a bad thing.. I get through more phases quickly, by letting them get excited and learn through the process that it's nothing.. New things Noises, movement are magnets for reactions.. they learn from them. You can cause negative behaviors to develop by causing more stress and excitement over nothing. I have brought dogs into my house that are use to barking up a storm over everything I don't give them my time.. "Bark your little head off until you pass out" lol no one cares.. That is how they just let it go within a week... No one cares and there is no more excitement to keep them going.

2) for the excitement for coming home.... why not just let him out the door to burn off the built up energy ,,, you two walk in put your stuff down, check your mail, and phone message, put your coats ups and then when your ready .. open the door to let your pup in to greet him.... Puppies have energy if you can find a way to let them explode then work with them after the energy has burned off a little.. they in a better state to work with them and teach them calm interactions that will settle anyway as they get older and grasp better control of themselves. Many things are just puppy stuff that they will get over anyway as time goes on...


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

PatriciafromCO said:


> 1) puppy's have learning curbs,, letting them work through things is not a bad thing.. I get through more phases quickly, by letting them get excited and learn through the process that it's nothing.. New things Noises, movement are magnets for reactions.. they learn from them. You can cause negative behaviors to develop by causing more stress and excitement over nothing. I have brought dogs into my house that are use to barking up a storm over everything I don't give them my time.. "Bark your little head off until you pass out" lol no one cares.. That is how they just let it go within a week... No one cares and there is no more excitement to keep them going.
> 
> 2) for the excitement for coming home.... why not just let him out the door to burn off the built up energy ,,, you two walk in put your stuff down, check your mail, and phone message, put your coats ups and then when your ready .. open the door to let your pup in to greet him.... Puppies have energy if you can find a way to let them explode then work with them after the energy has burned off a little.. they in a better state to work with them and teach them calm interactions that will settle anyway as they get older and grasp better control of themselves. Many things are just puppy stuff that they will get over anyway as time goes on...


1) This has been going on for months..... with no sign of him working through it. There are a lot of street noises too (we are in a new subdivision, so lots of construction, contractors, banging, drilling, etc) .... so he ends up barking all day long!!! Kind of hard with a baby who needs to nap!

2) The garage has a lot of things that are unsafe for an excited puppy to be left with!!! The garbage, lawn mower, gardening tools, no name a few. And he doesn't want to run out the door, he wants to jump all over us! We are often entering the house with the baby in the car seat, so it's not cool for a 70 lb dog to be flying through the air!!!!! We could open the door and let him run into the garage and try and trap him in there while we go inside.......but with two cars and a whole lot of things for him to get into, it doesn't seem like a great option!!!! Letting him out in the backyard will eventually be an option, but we are in a new-build and are still waiting on our fence...... so he needs to be tied before going in the yard. Trying to tie a 70 lb dog flying through the air in excitement is also not an easy task (without grabbing his collar firmly and trying to attach the leash while he's squirming, butt wiggling, mouth wide open trying to bite down on anything it makes contact with!).


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Some things that I'd still like some advice on:
> 
> 1) Reactivity around the house. He jumps up, runs to the door and barks throughout the day in response to every little noise on the street. I'm trying to train him to come when called when this happens, but he doesn't listen to me when he's in this heightened state of arousal. Any advice on how to decrease his anxiety in this situation? Yelling at him to stop barking, saying no, following him to the door and pulling him away were all things I did in the past that obviously didn't work. Someone suggested I teach him to "speak" on command and then teach him "quiet".... the problem is that he could care less about me/commands when he's in this excited state. Do I just need to keep solidifying the recall/sit/look at me in different situations, slowly building up? How do I slowly build up to a car door closing 4 houses away? haha. I've been trying to de-sensitize him to the doorbell by ringing it myself and having him sit/stay/not react. But he knows it's me....... I'm sure he can sense if someone else is outside.
> 
> 2) Jumping up/freaking out when we come home. We have a door separating the garage door and the kitchen, so we've managed to train him to go lie on his mat when we come home. If he breaks from the mat and charges us (and we are close enough), we just go back onto the landing and shut the door. So he's learned that we won't come in until he lies down in his bed. However, the second we are in, he bolts towards us and jumps up almost to face level, runs around in circles whining, and sometimes peeing all over (although this has improved). Any advice on having him stay in the bed until we release him? And upon release, not freak out and jump all over? I don't want to keep a leash on him while we aren't home for safety reasons........ I suppose I could keep some treats in the garage and use one to try and convince him to stay in his bed until I say so..... we've tried ignoring him until he's settled, but pretty hard to ignore a 70 lb ball of energy throwing himself at you at face-level!


1. His reactivity may or may not go away with age. In general, Shepherds are fairly active guard dogs and mine are on constant alert for any potential "threats" that may be lurking around the house. In general, Labs are fairly vocal dogs who have no problem being loud. It sounds like your pup has inherited both of those traits. I think you should do exactly what you suggested - do the recall/sit/look at me and slowly build up until you can get his attention even when he's in a heightened state of excitement. Prepare yourself for a fairly vocal dog who guards your house, though, and for the fact that he may never fully break from these behaviors. They are inherent traits that training may curb, but not completely halt, with his breed combination.

2. Where is his bed? Would there be a way to place a child gate between his bed and the kitchen so that there's a barrier that allows him to see you, but doesn't allow him to reach you until you deem his energy level is at an appropriate place for interaction?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

#1 ^^ Agreed with above. In addition, while you're working on training consider keeping a drag line or light leash on in the house so if he's too aroused to hear you or respond to commands, you can physically move him away from the window. 

#2 Is hard. In theory you would just keep removing yourself from the situation until he eventually settled down. In reality, for a young dog of his breeds he may just not have the amount of self control necessary to make this possible. What if you toss him a toy and tug for a minute or teach him a few simple tricks (like spin or roll over) and ask him to do them? That might burn off enough mental and physical energy before you actually physically interact with each other.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Well ... this got interesting while I was away LOL

Anyway I found some links, I dont know hoe "scientific" they are, but a few did studies on early neuter, late neuter and intact dogs.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_24534195/neuter-your-dog-or-not-new-studies-change

http://vitalanimal.com/neutering/

http://www.chicagonow.com/training-...or-neuter-your-dog-one-size-does-not-fit-all/

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/health/articles/neutering-male-dog.html

http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...angers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx

And that is with just one google search, it took me like ... 5 minutes, imagine that . From what I can get, the most they have found out is that neutering or spaying is not a one size fits all deal, like, it may work for some but not everyone. Take me for example, I will always have my females spayed, because I personally dont trust myself with keeping an intact female, I think I COULD, but I dont want the added stress of it LOL. Now males? I likely wont neuter my males unless there is a medical or behavioral reason for it. Surgery is risky, especially for my breed (MAS) and I just dont see the benefit justifying the risk. 

OP- I should say that his recent aggression issues might be due to pain, he is hurting and might be a bit grouchier than normal, also, suddenly cutting off the hormones can also affect their temperament and behavior (CAN, not WILL).


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

For barking in the house, is it at something specific? Like an actual critter or person outside? In that case I would just walk around and shut the blinds so he can't see it. Once he's quiet open them again, and if he barks close them.

If he's barking at sounds and things you can't see it's a little trickier. I would actually mark and throw a treat when he barks. Sounds counter intuitive, but it would break his barking, get his focus more on you, and teach him that people outside mean he gets good things from you. Marking and treating before he starts barking but has noticed the sound would be better, but that's not always easy.

For jumping up when you come home, you're on the right track. I think you just need to keep going outside or go into a different room and shut the door. So far he's learned to stay on his mat until you're fully inside, and then he can jump all over and go nuts. So you just need to show him that even though you're inside, you can still leave again or walk away from him. Bringing treats in with you is a good idea too and may help him better understand what you want. I also agree with gating him into another room so he can't mob you right at the door.

And I agree that these things may be part of his personality/age. You can work on them of course, but with that type of dog at 10 months old, this is a lot of behavior I would expect and it won't go away until he's more mature and settled.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> 1) This has been going on for months..... with no sign of him working through it. There are a lot of street noises too (we are in a new subdivision, so lots of construction, contractors, banging, drilling, etc) .... so he ends up barking all day long!!! Kind of hard with a baby who needs to nap!
> 
> 2) The garage has a lot of things that are unsafe for an excited puppy to be left with!!! The garbage, lawn mower, gardening tools, no name a few. And he doesn't want to run out the door, he wants to jump all over us! We are often entering the house with the baby in the car seat, so it's not cool for a 70 lb dog to be flying through the air!!!!! We could open the door and let him run into the garage and try and trap him in there while we go inside.......but with two cars and a whole lot of things for him to get into, it doesn't seem like a great option!!!! Letting him out in the backyard will eventually be an option, but we are in a new-build and are still waiting on our fence...... so he needs to be tied before going in the yard. Trying to tie a 70 lb dog flying through the air in excitement is also not an easy task (without grabbing his collar firmly and trying to attach the leash while he's squirming, butt wiggling, mouth wide open trying to bite down on anything it makes contact with!).


""" *Yelling at him to stop barking, saying no, following him to the door and pulling him away were all things I did in the past that obviously didn't work*.""""

This is why you are where you are at the level it has continued and progressed too.. why I was saying not to excite them/ escalate them into more of the behaviors. We all make misunderstandings of what works and doesn't.. it's a good learning lesson for moving on and realizing you are currently training to undo poor learned habits. It takes time to undo.. stay with your redirection.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sadly, I am starting to think that this dog might be happier in another home


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> For barking in the house, is it at something specific? Like an actual critter or person outside? In that case I would just walk around and shut the blinds so he can't see it. Once he's quiet open them again, and if he barks close them.
> 
> If he's barking at sounds and things you can't see it's a little trickier. I would actually mark and throw a treat when he barks. Sounds counter intuitive, but it would break his barking, get his focus more on you, and teach him that people outside mean he gets good things from you. Marking and treating before he starts barking but has noticed the sound would be better, but that's not always easy.
> 
> ...


Not that I can tell, no. Our front door and windows are covered. So it's just noises both inside (like the washing machine, dish washer or fan) and out (car doors closing, or other noises I may not even hear). 

Really? Treat the barking? It can be hard in a multi-story home, as I'm often upstairs, and he is downstairs when he barks. I can rarely predict when he may bark, as often it's at seemingly nothing.

Ya, the jumping I think we can probably fix with treats/getting him outside, tying him down, etc.



PatriciafromCO said:


> """ *Yelling at him to stop barking, saying no, following him to the door and pulling him away were all things I did in the past that obviously didn't work*.""""
> 
> This is why you are where you are at the level it has continued and progressed too.. why I was saying not to excite them/ escalate them into more of the behaviors. We all make misunderstandings of what works and doesn't.. it's a good learning lesson for moving on and realizing you are currently training to undo poor learned habits. It takes time to undo.. stay with your redirection.



Yup, sadly


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Sadly, I am starting to think that this dog might be happier in another home


Perhaps you are right, however he's in a better place then where he originally came from........he may not even be alive today if it wasn't for me. We may not be the best dog parents in the world, but he's well loved, fed, walked and his needs are met.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

for the OP I think this pup is "HIGHLY" doable with the OP... lots of suggestions for creating structure ... they work !! takes time ... that's the main thing, everyday you go through the same helping and supporting them, showing them, showing them again... doing it with them.. before it sinks in and they able to do it on their own.. I love love my pups when we are hitting the 2 year and 3 year old mark.. its not that they don't learn and do many things before that,, but you see the most maturity for all the time yall spent together getting through the silly stuff .... Lots of puppies are just like that... nothing different about them..


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I don't think rehoming him should even be considered at this point.... I think OP has shown that she cares enough about the well being of this dog to not only admit to, but put in the effort to address the issues, and that alone is more than what some dog owners do. 

I've been lurking.... most of what I would say has already been said.... 

Redirection will be your best friend. Go get some really meaty -awesome- bones and save them in your freezer for moments indoors that bring your dog into an excited state. Someone's at the door? - Allow him to greet on his terms (ask guests to ignore the dog, don't even look at him), if he moves in and nudges hands in a "pet me" motion - THEN pet him, avoiding eye contact still. Once the initial greeting is over with, go and get him a meaty bone and put it in a place where he will not be disturbed while eating it. 

DO NOT TAKE THE BONE FROM HIM AT ANY TIME. Wait until he is done with it, or outside in the yard before taking it and putting it back in the freezer for another time. You do not want to create a "need" to resource guard, as meaty bones, for most dogs, are very high value. 

Now I am not retaining information from this thread very well right now, so whether or not this is something you *could* or have tried as a way to redirect behaviors in multiple situations - I have no idea. But I think you're doing right by him, by acknowledging that you need help.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BostonBullMama said:


> I don't think rehoming him should even be considered at this point.... I think OP has shown that she cares enough about the well being of this dog to not only admit to, but put in the effort to address the issues, and that alone is more than what some dog owners do.
> 
> I've been lurking.... most of what I would say has already been said....
> 
> ...


But she shouldn't feel bad, if she does decide that the dog is too much for her, not saying he will be, UT if it does play out that way, I was just saying that so she wouldn't feel bad if it happened.

Boy ... I shouldn't post stuff when I am in a hurry haha.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

One thing about owning dogs, when they are old and grey we tend to forget how they were a handful as puppies. 

OP I think that the true answer to help solve your problems is not one line answers. It will involve steps, some tiny, some huge to help you overcome the problems you are dealing with your dogs.


The barking- Hard to say or see over the internet why your dog is barking at everything. Could it be stress? Could it be he is a GSD and just being guardy of his property and his people. You probably already have looked at bark collars. Do your research if you go this route. There are the spray collars and the static collars. Some dogs get really smart and still do bark if they figure out the collars. I would prefer a remote collar to teach the dog to be quiet. I would still want my dogs to bark but be quiet on command. I personally have NEVER used a bark collar but have seen other owners who have. Some owners have had luck while other owners were disappointed with the results. You could try using a DAP plug in to see if that would help if the cause is stress. You could talk to your vet about a product called Zylkene to see if that help him learn how to settle in the house. There are also OTC medications to help with stress. Your dog is having to deal with a newborn in the household. 

The excitement factor- this is very common. Your dog is young has been home and now has all this energy because his humans are home. Could you set up a temporary kennel in the back yard that he can go in for a time when you come home. Have a special treat for him in the kennel. He will learn that when you come home, he will go into the kennel to get something special to chew on. 

Exercise is very important to keep up with in your dog. It may be hard with a baby and all but your dog needs daily exercise to help your dog from having too much pent up energy. 

Yes, the combo of breeds may have been too much for a first time dog owner but I think you are at least trying to make it work. Remember, as the dog's face starts to grey all this moment in time will just be a memory and all you can remember about your dog is how great he is.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I will say this, every GSD I have known has been quite barky (not a bad thing, just saying) like, vocal. Now not saying they are all like that as a breed, but IME they do have a tendency to be vocal.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I will say this, every GSD I have known has been quite barky (not a bad thing, just saying) like, vocal. Now not saying they are all like that as a breed, but IME they do have a tendency to be vocal.


lol yes after 13 of them (yes) talky talky about everything,, Mom's getting her shoes on, moms got the leashes, we going for a ride in the truck, we going outside, we going inside, mom's making dinner... some more quiet then others but definetly in puppy stage..  My Tabe was an insane one... Everything needed to be announced lol lol .. I never noticed how much my GSD group talked about everything.. for the 25 year span of having them until I got my CC and the CO's.. who dont really say much, unless they alerting... lol


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

I think that he's beyond vocal. I don't mind if he barks for a reason. Someone at the door, the garage door opening when my husband gets home... usual dog stuff. But today for example, he freaked out and barked for 5 mins because I closed a drawer, or opened a door and it bumped the wall, or the spoon hit the sink..... those kind of things. Which happen every few minutes or so when you live in a house. The fan turns on, the fridge makes a noise, the dishwasher makes a noise....... I put a plate down on the counter.... you get the point.

So he's a nervous wreck! Today he was pacing the house....... woofing and running around in circles!  Running from one door to the next. He wanted outside, then inside, then outside, barking in each spot. 

We do try and exercise him as much as possible. We try and give him three 30 min walks a day...... my husband also takes him jogging, and we take him to the off-leash park to play fetch, swim, etc at least 1-2 times a week, plus his saturday morning dog class. I'm on maternity leave, so I'm home all day, so anytime I'm not with baby I try to entertain the dog with training, fetch, squeaky toys.... I have my morning coffee with him outside in the yard, I have my evening tea with him outside in the yard.... so I do spend A LOT of time with him. He certainly isn't just cast aside because of the baby. 

Would the baby affect him that much as a puppy? We only had him a few months before she was born, so it's not like he lived his entire life being centre of attention and then she came and ruined it all. He was only 7 months when she was born, and she's 6 months old now.... so half his life has been with her. She isn't a fussy baby either, so she doesn't cry or scream much or keep him awake at night. It's more the other way around!!! And he's never shown any stress around her (that I can tell). I've always let him in the nursery with me, so he'll often lie at the foot of my chair while I'm feeding/playing with her...... I'm always careful to talk to him and give him attention too, so I don't think he's ever been jealous of her, or stressed because of her. I could be wrong, but his body language always seems relaxed when he's upstairs with us, or on walks with us. He seems interested in her, in that he wants to sniff her and lick her face. Luckily she thinks he's hilarious, and laughs when he barks..... and can sleep through almost anything!


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Abhik barked at the rice cooker today.. was the first time I used it since I had her.. the hissing and gurgling noise she was racing out the door to run around barking thinking it was something outside and coming back in barking at it, laying down quiet until it hit a hissing and gurgling point again. she got over it.. I wasn't keeping track of time. but I think the entire cooking process was 30 to 45 minutes.. You have to consider they have baby brains and honestly don't know what stuff is.. Am sure the next time I use the rice cooker which will be all new again, she will have a reaction again,, but maybe the third time I pull it out she'll look then not say anything.. she's a klepto to.. its rattle snake season and she is still in the stage of instant opportunity that I just slip off my shoes where I am sitting and grabs one to run outside leaving it out in the yard somewhere.. Not happy about needing to go out in the yard one shoed looking for it.. I'm old with brain fade not quick enough to stay ahead of her lol lol .. it can be humorous for me because I see them for having empty little heads about things.. I just don't worry about them... 

Have you tried any of the food puzzle toys.. ?? I've never tired one,, I work from home and even at puppies we have to rest and lay down until I get a break, take them for a romp around the yard checking on the other farm animals and come back in for me to work again.. the whole thing of finger to my lip if I am about to make a phone call .. We don't go anywhere day after day after day.. Plenty of property to move around and do chores twice a day. Interaction is all about participating in the daily schedule along with the other animals. Lots of things they learn helping me on the farm. I am definetly not an exciting person, nor to I feel the need to entertain them though we do have lots of fun hanging out and getting into trouble.. 

Dogs are goofy with their antics,, even if it means joining them instead of wanting to control them or conform them... The running in and out and barking you discribed,, could be just puppy Zoomies....... burst of energy... My CO pup at almost a year is over 100lbs she hits like a line backer and laid me out flat on my back 10ft away from where I had knelt down to open my arms and said Abhik come... she came but haven't yet grasped the ( stop when you get there) she gets the zoomies and it's a very dangerous thing for me,,,,, until she gets a grasp of her self to understand how big she is.... getting out of her way and finding the right motions from me that she responds too will come as she matures.. If I take some hard hits until we find what works.. then I take a couple of really hard hits that will hurt.. as she is not trying to hurt me.. she just needs to learn interaction skills...

I've done all kinds of changes to my dogs at so many different ages... brought new dogs in that were crazy and disruptive.. Keeping my dogs structure the same as it has always been they do just fine.. they go with the flow.. I don't change, their life doesn't change.. even when we add a new structure to account for the new dog or needing to have time for a dog that needs some extra time getting through a phase...


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Instead of entertaining your problem pup so much try teaching him to settle down. Put a leash on him and have him stay with you for as long a time as you can manage. He is being busy and winding himself up constantly. I've been doing that with my newest dog who was constantly on the move and getting into mischief mostly to teach him to 'down' but found that once we had a couple sessions he was able to settle in the house as well.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I think that he's beyond vocal. I don't mind if he barks for a reason. Someone at the door, the garage door opening when my husband gets home... usual dog stuff. But today for example, he freaked out and barked for 5 mins because I closed a drawer, or opened a door and it bumped the wall, or the spoon hit the sink..... those kind of things. Which happen every few minutes or so when you live in a house. The fan turns on, the fridge makes a noise, the dishwasher makes a noise....... I put a plate down on the counter.... you get the point.
> 
> So he's a nervous wreck! Today he was pacing the house....... woofing and running around in circles!  Running from one door to the next. He wanted outside, then inside, then outside, barking in each spot.
> 
> ...


Haha yeah, you would hate living with a MAS. He sounds like a typical high drive mix breed to me, all of what you are explaining is fairly normal.

I agree, as much as he has to be turned on, he has to learn how to just ... be, and for a high drive dog that is the hardest thing to do. Teach him a place command, hsve a drag leash on him and have a special place he is to go to, If he gets too rambunctious take the leash and lead him to his place. You will have to repeat this a thousand times before he will stick, every time he barks, place, if he starts fighting around, place, once he knows kind of what you want, if he gets to being a jerk face, give him the command (it can be anything you want, I use "to your place ") lead him there and tether him there (make sure it is next to a sturdy piece of furniture and never leave him unintended) ignore him if he makes a fuss, praise him of he is settling in with a chew or something.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

It sounds like you are on the right track. Does your dog seem more on the 'alert' if you are home alone? I know that it seems that my dogs are more 'barky' if my husband is not home. My reasoning for this is, I tend to be more on the alert to sounds when he is not home. I think the animals pick up on that. Also, as juves and young adults they do tend to want to bark at everything. In my household it is also a matter if the windows are open or closed. For instance, last night I slept with the windows open. I am surprised I have one single dog alive this am. Constantly all night long it seemed at least one dog was barking. One dog barks the rest join in. Of course, the coyotes were pretty vocal last night too. With the windows closed, they are not as vocal. The dogs, I do not know if it affects the coyote sounds if my windows are open or closed! 

It could also be your hormones too. You are on maternity leave you say. Your hormones are whacked right now. It could be that everything is just out of sync in your world because of the birth of your child. Congratulations by the way. Good thing is eventually that problem will be resolved. You will not realize how much this effected your life till a few years down the road. Looking back, you will go 'Oh MY!' It seems by your comments that your dog and your child have a wonderful relationship.

And no it does not sound like you cast your dog aside when the child entered the picture. Give it time and all will work out. The one thing about people who excel at having good dogs and children is consistency. Being consistent and following through seems to be the key to the answer of dealing with problem dogs and children.


----------



## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> We adopted a 4 month old black lab/shepard rescue in Dec, and he just recently turned 1 year. He is not neutered yet (going on Tuesday) as we were on the wait list at the SPCA and just got our call to bring him in.
> 
> ...


You adopted a puppy and you took him to an obedience class, right? It's extremely unlikely that you'd ever have such off behavior if you spend the few dollars it takes to go there. Have you brought it up with the trainer at the school?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

seaboxador said:


> You adopted a puppy and you took him to an obedience class, right? It's extremely unlikely that you'd ever have such off behavior if you spend the few dollars it takes to go there. Have you brought it up with the trainer at the school?


Oh no, some dogs are just ... jerks no matter how you slice it LOL. And he is an intact, teenage working mix breed, and both breeds he has in him are famous for being jerks about this time.

OP please dont be discouraged, everyone goes through things like this, and when I said about rehoming, I was just saying that if you ever get to where you can't deal because I know you have kids at home and their safety matters, too. Dont feel bad about it, sometimes a dog just isnt the right fit for a home, it was nothing you did. Not saying you are there yet (because I dont think you are). If I were you I would keep searching for a good behaviorist, if you feel comfortable, you can PM me and I can try to help as much as i can, I know dog people all over the country, I can reach out and ask them if they know of a good behaviorist in your area.


----------

