# Loose Leash Issues :<!



## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

Hey yall.

I know theres a lot of information about loose leash walking and heeling on the forums. But I feel like I've tried everything with my Husky, Jak, and nothing seems to work. So I really want to get some advice from other Husky or Husky-like dog owners who know how hard they can pull and how stubborn they can be.

Jak and I completed obedience school about a month or so ago. He's great and I think with a little more training training he'll be able to enter the CGC class and try to pass the test. I'm real proud of how far we've come...but loose leash walking is awful. I tried the Easy Walk harness for a long time and it gives me more control and I feel like I have a better hold of him, but it doesn't do anything to hinder the pulling. The trainer then recommended that I try the Gentle Leader Head Harness, and it didn't work any better. I actually felt that it was worse. Jak would keep pulling really hard and it would look like I was hurting him, when all I was doing was standing still. In fact, whenever I used it he pulled so hard on it that when I took it off, there would be an imprint on his face. 

My routine is that before a walk I get dressed. And Jak already knows its walk time so he gets all crazy and starts running back and forth to the door. So from there I usually go outside and run around with him to burn off some energy, then leash him up and head to the door. But by the time I head to the door he goes all nuts again. So we leave the front door and he bolts out to the end of the lead. And it stays pretty tight until the end of the walk. I try to do the "stop, turn around, go in the other direction" thing when he pulls but as soon as I turn around he runs to the end of the leash and its tight again. This happens over and over. When I practice in the backyard the same thing happens.

I read up on both harnesses and understood that they are made so the pressure generated when the dog pulls is uncomfortable and thus hinders the pulling. But Jak is like totally immune to it, so much so that I it worries me that he's hurting his throat. The trainer said I should let him run loose at a park beforehand to burn off all the excess energy. It makes total sense. But the reality is, driving out to a dog park everyday isn't really practical.

Any suggestions or tips? TT_TT


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jak said:


> Hey yall.
> 
> I know theres a lot of information about loose leash walking and heeling on the forums. But I feel like I've tried everything with my Husky, Jak, and nothing seems to work. So I really want to get some advice from other Husky or Husky-like dog owners who know how hard they can pull and how stubborn they can be.
> 
> ...


Jak
You did not give dog's age. How important is walking on a loose lead to you. I get a lot of dogs to train just for this reason. I use negative motivation (prong collar) for this because of time constraints and age/wildness of dog etc. I'm not advising you to use this method. If I did it would be like 2 fools talking, I would be talking you to you about a dog that I don't know and you if using my advice would be listening to me. Talk to a trainer that knows your dog about using a prong collar. One thing I can tell you, this is not a breed specific problem. All breeds have the ability for heavy duty pulling on lead.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

running around with him to burn off energy is encouraging him to get "hyped up" for a walk. he knows that when you get dressed it means you're going for a walk so try getting dressed and then getting yourself a cup of coffee or sitting down with the paper. when he settles down, bring his leash to him and put it on. if he gets hyper again just stay there reading your paper or whatever you're doing until he calms down. the key is to not leave the house until he's in a calm state of mind and focusing on you. 

when you're walking, don't do the stop and change direction thing. just stop. stand there until he's calm and looking at you. if he's a very high energy dog you may have to jog or speed walk to stay ahead of him


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## Captain (Jan 3, 2008)

My friend has two Siberian Huskies that she has certified in obedience off leash and collar. Like yours, they LOVED to pull. I'm just going to tell you what worked for her...

She used a choke collar (pinch might be better). As you walk the dog...watch it constantly. As SOON as the leash gets tight..."pop" the leash. This is not a pull...but a pop. The collar will tighten against the dog and release just as quickly. This does NOT harm the dog physically (I know from personal experiance) it is just very uncomfortable and the dog will start paying attention to you. 

She did this every SINGLE time the dog pulled. It has to be a forceful pop...not a gentle one; otherwise the dog will ignore it. The dog can jump up and down, walk in front or behind you...it just can't pull on its leash. This is a week long, 6 days a week exercise. 

If you decide to try it...stick with it and be consistent. If you don't...Jak will not take it seriously and go back to pulling. Once he knows that pulling isn't allowed and that there is a consequence to his pulling...he won't do it anymore. 

Good luck.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Captain said:


> My friend has two Siberian Huskies that she has certified in obedience off leash and collar. Like yours, they LOVED to pull. I'm just going to tell you what worked for her...
> 
> She used a choke collar (pinch might be better). As you walk the dog...watch it constantly. As SOON as the leash gets tight..."pop" the leash. This is not a pull...but a pop. The collar will tighten against the dog and release just as quickly. This does NOT harm the dog physically (I know from personal experiance) it is just very uncomfortable and the dog will start paying attention to you.
> 
> ...



I would never recommend this kind of training there are other ways to get a dog to walk on a loose leash that don't require a pop on the leash and hurting your dog...... AND I WOULD NEVER recommend this kind of training with guidance by someone on an internet bulleting board if someone is going to use a harsh training method that is going to cause their dog to hurt (which personally I can't comprehend anyway) then they need to do so under the guidance of a professional trainer. 

giving a pop on the leash can cause many dogs to completely shut down.... it can damage the bond between you and your dog...... it can cause dog aggression and aggression toward people if not utilized correctly. 

I would suggest enrolling your dog in a training class ..... and under the guidance of someone who is there and can observe you and your dog and the interactions between you help you figure out how to work with your dog if you are going to use harsh methods..... 

I have SEVEN retrievers who are very very people oriented and strong.... and they all walk on a loose leash.... simply because when they pull I stop...... period...... they have learned very quickly that pulling gets them nowhere..... 

I have not used a choke or a prong on my dogs...... and you can see by the picture below that they are well trained..... 

Now will I occasionally give my dog a slight jerk on the leash to remind them to wake up and pay attention to me..... yes.... but it is never a pop and it never causes them to be as this poster terms "uncomfortable" which is a code word for it hurts. 

yet they all walk on leash nicely...... 

You don't have to hurt your dog to have a well trained dog. 
s


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree with Shalva on this one. You really need to get your dog into a good obedience program and work with your dog in a positive manner. It is too hard to assess what is happening with a dog on a dog forum. You will increase the bond with your dog through positive training. Timing is everything with corrections and when the timing is bad (as with an inexperienced handler) you can do more damage then good. A good trainer observing you and your dog will be able to guide you and help you to achieve your goal.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't believe Jak is going to use any negative motivation at all. He stated that using the gentle leader was making the dog uncomfortable. Maybe he's just got too much dog for his particular personality/mental state etc. Years ago when I was a much younger man I worked at a riding stable. The owner of the stable also sold horses, He actually would try to match up a horse with an potential owner that had the ability to handle the horse. You would be surprised the people that wanted the horse that was breathing fire. The stable owner being a man of integrity refused to sell fire breathing horses to inexperienced owners. I'm not trying to compare the 2 scenarios, but there are dog owners that are just over matched by their dogs. Now a little venting, I have also mentioned this on other posts, the minute somebody writes about a prong collar or popping the lead the word harsh pops up, as if all the people using prong collars are brutes. I hope that people making bold statements like that, and also about how all dogs being trained with prongs are ruined and will not bond with their owners for using such harsh training methods. I would hope they have at least 15 assorted breeds and at least 100 different dogs trained. Oh just to make it a tad harder I want a lot of temperaments, some dogs like alligators, some dogs like lambs and all the variables in between. At least then, they would have a good start on dog training in general before they made the statements. This is my opinion only, from my personal experiences. There are many, many, many, (I could go on) dogs out in the world that have been trained with prong collars and jerks on the lead. These dogs have bonded with their K9 handlers, have bonded with senior dog owners who are now able to walk their dog comfortably and not worry about getting a broken hip etc etc etc. The prong collar is a tool only, not a cure all. Do not get me wrong, forums are great. I just don't like the, you must not do this, this is bad, do it my way only type of reply. Whew, done venting now. I apologize if I have offended anybody.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

wvasko said:


> I don't believe Jak is going to use any negative motivation at all. He stated that using the gentle leader was making the dog uncomfortable. Maybe he's just got too much dog for his particular personality/mental state etc. Years ago when I was a much younger man I worked at a riding stable. The owner of the stable also sold horses, He actually would try to match up a horse with an potential owner that had the ability to handle the horse. You would be surprised the people that wanted the horse that was breathing fire. The stable owner being a man of integrity refused to sell fire breathing horses to inexperienced owners. I'm not trying to compare the 2 scenarios, but there are dog owners that are just over matched by their dogs. Now a little venting, I have also mentioned this on other posts, the minute somebody writes about a prong collar or popping the lead the word harsh pops up, as if all the people using prong collars are brutes. I hope that people making bold statements like that, and also about how all dogs being trained with prongs are ruined and will not bond with their owners for using such harsh training methods. I would hope they have at least 15 assorted breeds and at least 100 different dogs trained. Oh just to make it a tad harder I want a lot of temperaments, some dogs like alligators, some dogs like lambs and all the variables in between. At least then, they would have a good start on dog training in general before they made the statements. This is my opinion only, from my personal experiences. There are many, many, many, (I could go on) dogs out in the world that have been trained with prong collars and jerks on the lead. These dogs have bonded with their K9 handlers, have bonded with senior dog owners who are now able to walk their dog comfortably and not worry about getting a broken hip etc etc etc. The prong collar is a tool only, not a cure all. Do not get me wrong, forums are great. I just don't like the, you must not do this, this is bad, do it my way only type of reply. Whew, done venting now. I apologize if I have offended anybody.


Again having to vent after my post. LOL I think if you read mine more closely I said timing with corrections is everything. Not, Don't ever correct your dog. I am just concerned with someone giving advice to continually POP the leash on a dog that this person knows nothing about. Not all dogs can handle that. Not all owners can handle that. I think that firm corrections should be done under the supervision of a skilled trainer. As far as pinch collars I have also stated that I have used them. I don't believe everyone out there knows how to use them. Proof to that look around more often then not I see people with the collars not fitting correctly and dragging the dog around with them. Again, having a novice dog owner trying to do corrections without having seen the dog or the owner is just a little irresponsible. IMO I tend to lean on the side of caution though as I don't want to direct someone to do something that could potentially hurt them, or their dog. But that is me.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Inga said:


> Again having to vent after my post. LOL I think if you read mine more closely I said timing with corrections is everything. Not, Don't ever correct your dog. I am just concerned with someone giving advice to continually POP the leash on a dog that this person knows nothing about. Not all dogs can handle that. Not all owners can handle that. I think that firm corrections should be done under the supervision of a skilled trainer. As far as pinch collars I have also stated that I have used them. I don't believe everyone out there knows how to use them. Proof to that look around more often then not I see people with the collars not fitting correctly and dragging the dog around with them. Again, having a novice dog owner trying to do corrections without having seen the dog or the owner is just a little irresponsible. IMO I tend to lean on the side of caution though as I don't want to direct someone to do something that could potentially hurt them, or their dog. But that is me.


I don't get that kind of training as it is just not my style and I find that things can be accomplished other ways..... 

BUT 

what I said was exactly what Inga has said here..... if you are going to do this it needs to be done with a professionals help not based on what one is told by a person on the internet..... 
s


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> At least then, they would have a good start on dog training in general before they made the statements.


Or they have a preference, which should not be ignored, if the customer is to remain a client. Or they understand that punishments do not need to be physical, and therefore they shouldn't be physical. Or, they have are are excellent at applying the laws of learning theory, and never need to use physical corrections. Experience does not always define the level of understanding. 

Classical conditioning rules apply in all forms of dog training, and if the dog does not respond well to physical corrections, you are waging a battle against Pavlov. A battle no companion dog owner should ever want to wage. Advocating physical corrections to novices IMO is akin to playing Russian roulette. But I also know that's not what you're doing.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Loose leash walking takes time....heeling takes even more time...up to 2 years for a really good looking team. 
Have you tried the left about turn when your dog gets slightly ahead of you? I prefer the body block as that's what Alphas do when a lower ranking member tries to pass him. Alphas don't make like a tree or walk in the opposite direction...they cut them off and snap and snarl...you don't have to do the last two!
There is a downside to this tactic and you need to guard against it...the dog will start to move away from you (so he doesn't get bumped) and for close heeling, that is not what you want. So, you need to extra vigilant/reward/praise/treat while in heeling position.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

TooneyDogs said:


> Loose leash walking takes time....heeling takes even more time...up to 2 years for a really good looking team.
> Have you tried the left about turn when your dog gets slightly ahead of you? I prefer the body block as that's what Alphas do when a lower ranking member tries to pass him. Alphas don't make like a tree or walk in the opposite direction...they cut them off and snap and snarl...you don't have to do the last two!
> There is a downside to this tactic and you need to guard against it...the dog will start to move away from you (so he doesn't get bumped) and for close heeling, that is not what you want. So, you need to extra vigilant/reward/praise/treat while in heeling position.


excellent suggestion, I use something similar in that I change direction every time they don't pay attention...... it keeps them watching me trying to figure out where I am going next.... gets them thinking and paying attention.... good suggestion.... 

I have a 7 mos old who is pretty reliably heeling with treats right now.... we haven't started weaning off treats yet.... but its coming. 
s


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

TooneyDogs said:


> that's what Alphas do when a lower ranking member tries to pass him.


Where are they going?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Where are they going?


Haven't got a clue! As a follower our job is to follow that backside wherever it goes!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Inga said:


> I agree with Shalva on this one. You really need to get your dog into a good obedience program and work with your dog in a positive manner. It is too hard to assess what is happening with a dog on a dog forum. You will increase the bond with your dog through positive training. Timing is everything with corrections and when the timing is bad (as with an inexperienced handler) you can do more damage then good. A good trainer observing you and your dog will be able to guide you and help you to achieve your goal.


Inga, So sorry, It was Shalva whose bell I was trying to ring not yours. She had the (harsh) term in her reply that I did not agree with. I think your reply was correct. My original post also stated I would not advise Jak to use a prong collar and that he should seek a trainer for help.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I use something similar in that I change direction every time they don't pay attention...... it keeps them watching me trying to figure out where I am going next.... gets them thinking and paying attention


Perfect! That's the next step. Once they start paying a little attention to where you're going .....weave and bob...make them pay even more attention. 
Straight line heeling gives too much time to look around, take in the sights and kind of encourages them to pull ahead of you as they know where you're going.


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## AkiraleShiba (Dec 9, 2007)

Start by getting your dog to look at you and have its ears turned in your direction. The squeaky toy is a great tool, you can also talk to your dog. I guess that is the most important step. Then I have to admit that I use leash corrections to keep the leash loose and with that technique I have been able to turn around a terrible pulling terrier. The terrier was about to choke himself with his collar so a very few leash corrections have been better than him constantly grasping for air because of his pulling. The way I use it I know I am not hurting my dogs, just surprising them so they go back to paying attention to me.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

wvasko said:


> I don't believe Jak is going to use any negative motivation at all. He stated that using the gentle leader was making the dog uncomfortable. Maybe he's just got too much dog for his particular personality/mental state etc.


I don't think Jak is "too much" for me to be honest. When I got him about 5 months ago from the rescue he was very shy and timid, and if I approached him too fast he would cower. The trainer mentioned that within the 5-week obedience class Jak really went from being timid to being very confident, which is a good thing, but made his true colors show and made him really begin to test me as a handler on walks more than he had when I first adopted him.

Thanks for all the information and replies. To give you guys a little more information I may have failed to make clear. The rescue estimates Jak is around 3 years old, so he's no pup, and can get a big guy like me off my feat if he catches me off guard and gives me a good pull. I just graduated a obedience class with him, and the trainer did observe us walking on the street and thats how I went from the harness to the head harness and back to the harness again. Basically the two pieces of advice she gave was to tire him out at a park beforehand, which as I said makes sense..but not so practical. And that I should turn in the opposite direction when he pulls.

So I'm not really sure what to do now. I'm really weary of using a prong collar, which is why I've been using only positive reinforcement so far and trying less abrasive tools. But Jak really does seem immune to them, and doesn't really react to the pressure on his nose or chest. I've also tried food and praise on walks to try and keep him from tightening the leash, but he doesn't really care about food on the walk, and when I praise by saying "Good!" he usually ends up pulling again. So yeh...I was just kind of hoping someone had another idea I haven't tried yet before I look into another collar/harness or try another trainer. Everything obedience wise is great, and I feel like I have a shot with CGC...but this loose leash walking is just such a problem.

AkiraleShiba> I think I have the same situation. Jak pulls so hard from the moment the door opens to the minute we make it home, that its enough for me to concerned. So maybe its a trade off since if he continues pulling like this it may result in some sort of injury.

For those of you who used prong collars, do you still use them? Or after a few weeks were you able to return to a flat collar or harness again?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well there is sure a lot of info you did not mention in your 1st post. 
1. (So I'm not really sure what to do now. I'm really weary of using a prong collar)
2. (I just graduated a obedience class with him)
3. (Everything obedience wise is great, and I feel like I have a shot with CGC...but this loose leash walking is just such a problem.)

1. Any training tool you use on your dog, the dog lets you know when you stop using it. He keeps pulling you keep using. You did not mention you were using prong on 1st post.
2. How could you possibly graduate an obedience class if the dog was not performing on a loose lead in class. 
3. A repeat of above, Obedience wise is not great if you can't walk your dog comfortably.

After I read your last post either you are fooling us or your trainer is fooling you. One of the most important exercises taught in a class would be proper heeling of your dog. So important to me that if I was judging the work, heeling would count for 50% of your work. So if your dog did everything else perfect, sits, sit stays, down, down stays, recalls etc. He would only score 50 out of 100. Think about it, an unruly dog walk is something you would have to put up with every day of his life that you walk him. Now you mentioned using a harness to walk your dog, The gentle leader is not a harness, what kind of harness are you using. A Husky pulling a sled is hooked up with a harness because it makes it possible to pull he gets his chest body etc into the pull. Why would you put a harness on the dog to give him more leverage to pull successfully. Maybe I misunderstood your statement about harnessing of the dog. Now let's talk about trainers. They are like other tradesman, from plumbers to rocket scientists. There are some that are excellent and others that are thieves.
Now with the emphasis on 100% positive motivation certain trainers are like dairy farmers they will milk training sessions having you come back again and again so on and so forth. Think about it all the trainer has to do is pull the (we don't want to put to much pressure on your dog because) 1. the sun is shining, 2. the sun is not shining, 3. the pup is uncomfortable doing whatever, Reasons come pouring out of his mouth with reasons why dog cannot do the work today. Then I love the graduation of obedience dogs from some trainers, they are usually in charge and can graduate anybody they want. I never have gone in for the diploma method. I train the dog, then I video tape the dog and include instructions on DVD so that the owner can go home with his newly trained dog and have the proper tools to work him. *Very Important, there are many good trainers and yours may be a good trainer and you may be the weak link. * I have never got into the training class routines because you can probably tell from my post, I lack proper people skills. Much better with dogs. I'm done and gone from this post. 
Good Luck


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> I lack proper people skills. Much better with dogs. I'm done and gone from this post.


Perhaps you should keep this in perspective each and every time you post.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

wvasko> Woah. Slow down there. I feel like I just got flamed for asking advice. But you said you lack people skills, so I'll take it with a grain of salt.

"You did not mention you were using prong on 1st post." - Yeh because I'm not. I'm still not. I still consider it my last resort, as it should be.

"How could you possibly graduate an obedience class if the dog was not performing on a loose lead in class. " - Well even if my dog didn't do a thing I would probably graduate. Most dog classes don't withhold a doggy diploma. And it was my first obedience class with other new dog owners, so there was a great emphasis on dog manners, interactions with others, and basic commands, all which appear on the CGC test. Loose leash walking is only one portion of CGC, and it doesn't even need to be a perfect heel...

"The gentle leader is not a harness, what kind of harness are you using. "- I've done my research. I wouldn't use a harness that would encourage pulling. I've tried the Easy Walk Harness and the Gentle Leader Head Halter. Both work by producing an uncomfortable pressure, but both are obviously not enough for my Husky.

"Very Important, there are many good trainers and yours may be a good trainer and you may be the weak link. " - Er...what? Your basing my weakness as a handler on one post asking for help on loose leash walking? Righht.

Anyways, if anyone has anymore advice or whatever I'll still be watching this thread.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jak said:


> wvasko> Woah. Slow down there. I feel like I just got flamed for asking advice. But you said you lack people skills, so I'll take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> "You did not mention you were using prong on 1st post." - Yeh because I'm not. I'm still not. I still consider it my last resort, as it should be.
> 
> ...


Jak, not trying to flame you. My idea of forum posts and replies is to inform. To make people think about different methods out in the world of dogs and dog training. I'm also very serious about dog work. My problem is my dinosaur dog training standards. I forget that now everybody gets a trophy or diploma or whatever they need to keep the (grade on a curve) mediocrity in todays society. I always wanted to improve the dog being trained which made a lot of owners very happy. It appears today's programs are more interested in making owners happy without much improvement on the dog. Well this is my problem only.
Now I must have made a mistake because of this paragraph on your post, 

*(So I'm not really sure what to do now. I'm really weary of using a prong collar, which is why I've been using only positive reinforcement so far and trying less abrasive tools.)*

I thought when I read that, it meant that you were weary of using a prong collar. In closing 
Good Luck with your dog.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Jak probably just made a typo, the word he was looking for is "wary."

Also, the easy walk harness is completely different from a pulling harness. Both accomplish two different functions.

As for ideas, I really have no idea. Were I in your situation (and I'm not, I've never gone to obedience class) I would try to save up for a professional trainer. However, I've talked to a few trainers (mostly in interest of what I could accomplish with Ollie) and I've always gotten a poor impression of them. 

A lot of the training methods they suggest to me involves a dog that wants to please me. That really isn't my case, and I can't see it working. So I'm not too strict about obedience as long as he's friendly to people. But if he tried to pull (and he can pull all 200 pounds of me on a bike no problem, without help) on a leash, it would bother me enough to get a trainer.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

wvasko> I see. Well I respect your dedication to training, but I just think people have vastly different views and priorities on training. Compared to you, I probably have low expectations.

RBark> Thats cool. I have my hopes up for the CGC test, so I'm a little bit more into obedience with Jak. Its great that Ollie doesn't pull. My trainer asked about where Jak came from when we started obedience class, and I told her the rescue found him as a stray. She said since he's a stray thats why I'm having such a hard time, since the leash is so unnatural for him and he's used to scavenging for food and stuff.

And yeh I'm stupid I did mean "wary" not "weary". 

So I just got back from Petco a couple hours ago, after buying a prong collar. After adjusting it, it works great. He still gets ahead, but the difference is amazing, and with only about 15 minutes of practice with it. My dad was amazed at the difference, since all the other collars didn't do a thing to aid walking.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Jak said:


> wvasko> I see. Well I respect your dedication to training, but I just think people have vastly different views and priorities on training. Compared to you, I probably have low expectations.
> 
> RBark> Thats cool. I have my hopes up for the CGC test, so I'm a little bit more into obedience with Jak. Its great that Ollie doesn't pull. My trainer asked about where Jak came from when we started obedience class, and I told her the rescue found him as a stray. She said since he's a stray thats why I'm having such a hard time, since the leash is so unnatural for him and he's used to scavenging for food and stuff.
> 
> ...


What is the CGC test?


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

The ACK Canine Good Citizen test.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

FilleBelle said:


> The ACK Canine Good Citizen test.


Wow. Good luck. Ollie has not a chance at it. LOL.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Lol, did no one else notice that typo?

ACK!!! The Canine Good Citizen test!

Obviously, that should read "AKC."


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jak said:


> wvasko> I see. Well I respect your dedication to training, but I just think people have vastly different views and priorities on training. Compared to you, I probably have low expectations.
> 
> RBark> Thats cool. I have my hopes up for the CGC test, so I'm a little bit more into obedience with Jak. Its great that Ollie doesn't pull. My trainer asked about where Jak came from when we started obedience class, and I told her the rescue found him as a stray. She said since he's a stray thats why I'm having such a hard time, since the leash is so unnatural for him and he's used to scavenging for food and stuff.
> 
> ...


*So I just got back from Petco a couple hours ago, after buying a prong collar. After adjusting it, it works great. He still gets ahead, but the difference is amazing, and with only about 15 minutes of practice with it. My dad was amazed at the difference, since all the other collars didn't do a thing to aid walking.*
That's what I'm talking about!!!

Jak, It's not dedication as much trying to get a proper, quick, nice, easy to do result from your dog. In 15 minutes you wiped out 2 or whatever months of nagging/arm jerked out of socket problems with your dog. I know now that a lot of people get scared off of the prong collar. I believe there are trainers/people who have never touched a prong and (don't' know anything about it) will preach about how bad it is. One last thing about *some* obedience/trainer schools and diplomas, I would tell people if they were looking for a diploma etc. Just drop a check/payment in mail and when I receive the check I will mail diploma to them and we do not have to go through all that silly stuff with their dog. lol


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> One last thing about *some* obedience/trainer schools and diplomas, I would tell people if they were looking for a diploma etc. Just drop a check/payment in mail and when I receive the check I will mail diploma to them and we do not have to go through all that silly stuff with their dog. lol


That would defeat the purpose of working towards a goal, and being tested by an independent tester, wouldn't it? I guess if an owner were striving for their CGC, they wouldn't use you. I guess all you want is their money too?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> That would defeat the purpose of working towards a goal, and being tested by an independent tester, wouldn't it? I guess if an owner were striving for their CGC, they wouldn't use you. I guess all you want is their money too?


I'm not sure I understand your reply, I was telling Jak about some of the shady practices out there that do separate an owner from their money. He had said his whole obedience class had passed the course but he still could not walk dog properly. Any training of dogs I do, I must show results or I don't get paid and would have been out of business 40 years ago.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> He had said his whole obedience class had passed the course but he still could not walk dog properly. Any training of dogs I do, I must show results or I don't get paid and would have been out of business 40 years ago.


Ah, thank you for clearing that up. There's a difference, however, between private training and group classes, so to in what the criteria is between trainers. Just because someone takes a beginner's obedience class, does not mean in 6 weeks you will have a perfectly heeling dog. The onus is on the owner to work on the skills provided, and it's at the instructor's discretion whether to advance the student to the next class, or to offer private training in addition to the class. To say the class is worthless, based on one statement in an internet forum, is hasty, nevertheless.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Ah, thank you for clearing that up. There's a difference, however, between private training and group classes, so to in what the criteria is between trainers. Just because someone takes a beginner's obedience class, does not mean in 6 weeks you will have a perfectly heeling dog. The onus is on the owner to work on the skills provided, and it's at the instructor's discretion whether to advance the student to the next class, or to offer private training in addition to the class. To say the class is worthless, based on one statement in an internet forum, is hasty, nevertheless.


(One last thing about *SOME* obedience/trainer schools and diplomas) was in my reply. The fun is in the picking, whether its obedience classes or plumbers. Now I have to go on what Jak said, that after 15 minutes of using the prong collar the results were amazing . I didn't advise Jak in the 1st place to use prong. I told him to see what trainer said, so I don't really know if trainer then advised prong or he just decided to dive in. If the trainer did not advise him to use collar and he got the amazing results from the internet (other replies). I myself, think it's possible that his trainer might be suspect, I had already mentioned to Jak that he could be the weak link himself. I did try to cover all the bases. I also know enough about classes to not use the term worthless. There will always be 1 or 2 dogs/owners that will benefit from any class, unless the instructor is a total idiot.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

wvasko> No I didn't talk to my trainer. The trainer I had was totally positive reinforcement based (which I great, of course), and suggested before graduation just more back and forth training or releasing my dog's energy beforehand so he would be tamer on a walk. 

But I really am happy with the prong collar, although I still view it as a last resort kind of thing. I think if you've tried a Gentle Leader, and a Easy Walk Harness, and tried for at least a month at training, and see absolutely no progress, then the prong collar would be a viable option. Trainers are probably afraid to advocate them since they can be so controversial, and not to mention scary looking to new dog owners. But after weighing my options I figure my pup is better off with a pinch to keep him in place than having him constantly pulling on the leash for the entirety of the walk and risk a eye or throat injury. And really, the prong collar is just like the others in the fact that they all use pressure to make a self-correction. Plus at Petco I wrapped it around my arm and yanked as hard as I could and it didn't hurt...I was actually surprised my dog responded to it so well, with simply letting him self-correct.



> I myself, think it's possible that his trainer might be suspect, I had already mentioned to Jak that he could be the weak link himself.


Well as I said before I don't think its about being a "weak link", either me or my past trainer. I just think she was against the use of prong collars, and wouldn't be comfortable advising it to anyone. Which is a more than respectable position, considering that the prong as well as any equipment can be dangerous in the hands of certain handlers. When it comes to obedience commands me and my dog are pretty ace. Its just that being a husky and a stray, he pulled more intensely and consistently than any other dog and didn't respond to any other aid. So I definitely felt that the class was worth it, and I'd like to see a trainer who could successfully get my dog to loose leash walk without an aid...because I think it'd be close to impossible.

wvasko> I take it your a trainer and have used the prong collar to help with the loose leash walk before. So about how long should I keep using it until I try on the normal flat buckle collar again (since no training aids are allowed to pass the CGC)?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jak said:


> wvasko> No I didn't talk to my trainer. The trainer I had was totally positive reinforcement based (which I great, of course), and suggested before graduation just more back and forth training or releasing my dog's energy beforehand so he would be tamer on a walk.
> 
> But I really am happy with the prong collar, although I still view it as a last resort kind of thing. I think if you've tried a Gentle Leader, and a Easy Walk Harness, and tried for at least a month at training, and see absolutely no progress, then the prong collar would be a viable option. Trainers are probably afraid to advocate them since they can be so controversial, and not to mention scary looking to new dog owners. But after weighing my options I figure my pup is better off with a pinch to keep him in place than having him constantly pulling on the leash for the entirety of the walk and risk a eye or throat injury. And really, the prong collar is just like the others in the fact that they all use pressure to make a self-correction. Plus at Petco I wrapped it around my arm and yanked as hard as I could and it didn't hurt...I was actually surprised my dog responded to it so well, with simply letting him self-correct.
> 
> ...


Jak. excellent 100% right on the button about trainers being scared about prong. Their not entirely to blame because in most cases positive motivation does a great job. Also some of the new trainers have never used a prong and if you follow the forum here, if you make a mention of correcting a dog with a pop/jerk of leash *life is bad.* What you did by trying the prong collar was a big step that surprised me. One thing you can also try is as you checked a prong collar try doing the same check with a choke collar put it around arm and have somebody give a stiff jerk it will surprise you. I spent the 1st 20 years using choke collars the last 25 prong collars only, unless I get a special needs dog. I have other collars for those dogs Gentle leader, Martingale collar etc. I would not attempt to tell you how long it will take to attain your goals as I'm not there to see dog. I also see you are in a bit of a hurry up program. (really there is no such thing as time constraints with an amateur handler you own the dog) I believe you said you had dog for about 5 months. My personal advise would be 3-4-6 months of working your dog. You know the dog cannot read the award etc you are trying to attain. It's not that important to him. Just concentrate on dog work 1st. The rest will follow. Get on line to Petsmart and do a search for a martingale (nylon)collar This an adjustable nylon collar that I use with prong collar Then I double collar the dog (snap lead to both collars) and if I do correct dog, half of correction is taken up by the Martingale collar(makes it easier on dog) If I get an exceptionally hard headed dog I just snap to prong only. Now you made a huge step trying prong, you may have to actually do a correction if he becomes immune to your prong. What does that mean, well you just try *light* jerk on lead see what happens. Switch directions walking without warning him. If you are unsure or nervous hunt up a trainer in your area that is familiar with negative work. *Please remember if you do make a correction and get desired results dog gets a lot of thumping/stroking/petting/good boy speech etc so he knows he did something good.* I personally use very little food reward but if you get good results use it, if you think prayer will help use it. It's not rocket science, just use the sense god gave a goose, This is important you will see how dog handles this immediately, very simple if you don't like his reaction you stop. Through the years I probably have trained 15 huskies, I never met one that was not trainable. *IF YOU GET MAD AT YOUR DOG STOP TRAINING.* just have fun cause it is fun training a dog. 
Good Luck


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Also some of the new trainers have never used a prong and if you follow the forum here, if you make a mention of correcting a dog with a pop/jerk of leash *life is bad.*


Yes, recommending physical punishments to novice handlers over the internet is bad, and no good trainer would do that. You can't explain or show timing over the internet. You can't show explain what to look for in the dog to prove the correction is punishing over the internet. There's a reason alternate methods are recommend over physical corrections, and it does not always mean the person making the recommendation is new or does not know how to use the tool. If you can't understand the bad in physical corrections, you've lucked out with the dogs you've handled. 

There is a time and place for physical corrections. Teaching loose leash walking is not one of them, unless a third party, non-internet witness, prescribes it.

I really don't understand your desire to demote other types of trainers. It's been a recurring theme in your posts, and frankly, it doesn't add to your credibility. Just something to consider.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

wvasko said:


> I personally use very little food reward but if you get good results use it, if you think prayer will help use it.


Haha. Thanks for the info. So far, from what I've practiced in the house and in the yard, my dog is extremely responsive in comparison to using Gentle Leader/Easy Walk. So at this point, he doesn't need any physical correction from myself. I always pat my leg before I turn or change direction so he gets a warning before the leash goes tight, so its definitely been working out.



Curbside Prophet said:


> There is a time and place for physical corrections. Teaching loose leash walking is not one of them, unless a third party, non-internet witness, prescribes it.


By physical correction do you mean just using a prong collar at all, or the act of "popping" it? Because I have no intention to jerk the collar at all, and Jak is very responsive as is, and since I talk to him he always gets a warning before he self-corrects. But like I said, I've definitely weighed my options and researched it and put in a lot of training and used different alternatives. Honestly I feel all the other harnesses/halters I've used still work on the basic principle of pulling causing pressure on the dog to stop pulling, so its just a matter of how responsive your dog is. Additionally my dog was pulling so hard with the other aids that he was risking injury. Just so you know, I would never use a prong collar haphazardly without trying all alternatives and doing my research.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Yes, recommending physical punishments to novice handlers over the internet is bad, and no good trainer would do that. You can't explain or show timing over the internet. You can't show explain what to look for in the dog to prove the correction is punishing over the internet. There's a reason alternate methods are recommend over physical corrections, and it does not always mean the person making the recommendation is new or does not know how to use the tool. If you can't understand the bad in physical corrections, you've lucked out with the dogs you've handled.
> 
> There is a time and place for physical corrections. Teaching loose leash walking is not one of them, unless a third party, non-internet witness, prescribes it.
> 
> I really don't understand your desire to demote other types of trainers. It's been a recurring theme in your posts, and frankly, it doesn't add to your credibility. Just something to consider.


(I really don't understand your desire to demote other types of trainers. It's been a recurring theme in your posts, and frankly, it doesn't add to your credibility. Just something to consider.)

I think I am writing one thing and you are reading something else entirely. Nowhere was I demoting other trainers. I said some trainers do not use negative motivation. I said positive motivation was great. I myself am not a positive motivation specialist. If one person digs ditches all day and another man walks a scaffold washing windows all day. Even though each man could probably do the other mans job. I would bet they are both more comfortable and productive doing the job they normally do each day. Now let's talk about credibility, I have seen many so called dog trainers who were not. Let's talk about a theme that I have read 30 to 100 times on this forum what a lot of trainers or posters say to fix a problem. The very 1st answer when there is a problem is to get out and exercise the dog. your dog doesn't heel, more exercise is needed, he chews up the furniture, more exercise is needed, He doesn't down, more exercise is needed. I guess I could go on and on and on. Exercise is the modern trainer's cure all. If that is what a lot of trainers are selling that's great. I have no problem at all. My problem is the owners I have dealt with for 40 some odd years are not all 25 yr old athletes that can handle all that running with their dog or even have the time after working a 60 hour week. Most of my owners want to be able to come home after work and when they take their dog for a walk it's a comfortable bonding type of walk. You don't even want me to get into the ignore dog training advice. My real credibility comes from training 90 different breeds, not 90 dogs, 90 breeds, and the reason I'm on this forum is because I'm not done learning about dogs yet. You want to know what really burns my butt is that the bad dog trainers give all dog trainers a bad name. I'M NOT DEMOTING DOG TRAINERS, IT'S WOULD BE DOG TRAINERS THAT I DEMOTE. Amateurs do what amateurs do they love their dogs and try to get through life.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Jak said:


> By physical correction do you mean just using a prong collar at all, or the act of "popping" it?


Yes, I mean just using the prong collar at all. When the dog pulls against the prongs, it applies a physical aversion. That's what the collar was designed to do. Popping the collar would up the ante on the aversion. In order for the prong collar to be effective, it MUST be punishing. Otherwise, it's useless, perhaps even abusive. What's our target behavior? Hopefully loose leash walking. 

That's not to say you shouldn't use a prong collar, but I would never recommend one without suggesting you do so with the assistance of a certified trainer. Prong collars are meant to be a management tool, while you work on teaching your dog loose leash walking, and in ways that motivate the dog in a positive manner. Physical corrections use the motivation of fear. Using fear as a motive is not the way to instruct novice dog owners how to train their dogs, especially over the internet. Physical punishments MUST change behaviors now, otherwise, you're risking serious classical conditioning fallout with it's prolonged use. 



> Additionally my dog was pulling so hard with the other aids that he was risking injury. Just so you know, I would never use a prong collar haphazardly without trying all alternatives and doing my research.


You may very well be a candidate in using the collar, I know many Husky owners who are. As long as you understand it's a management tool (temporary), I'm sure you'll find ways to use it appropriately.



wvasko said:


> I think I am writing one thing and you are reading something else entirely.


Well, I hope that's true.



> I'M NOT DEMOTING DOG TRAINERS, IT'S WOULD BE DOG TRAINERS THAT I DEMOTE.


Because I know a dog trainer who's 5 years old, and all she's looking for is a little encouragement and understanding, not a demotion. Because let us not forget, she's not only a dog trainer, but a 'would-be' dog trainer too.

Criticism is one thing, constructive criticism is something entirely different.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Yes, I mean just using the prong collar at all. When the dog pulls against the prongs, it applies a physical aversion. That's what the collar was designed to do. Popping the collar would up the ante on the aversion. In order for the prong collar to be effective, it MUST be punishing. Otherwise, it's useless, perhaps even abusive. What's our target behavior? Hopefully loose leash walking.
> 
> That's not to say you shouldn't use a prong collar, but I would never recommend one without suggesting you do so with the assistance of a certified trainer. Prong collars are meant to be a management tool, while you work on teaching your dog loose leash walking, and in ways that motivate the dog in a positive manner. Physical corrections use the motivation of fear. Using fear as a motive is not the way to instruct novice dog owners how to train their dogs, especially over the internet. Physical punishments MUST change behaviors now, otherwise, you're risking serious classical conditioning fallout with it's prolonged use.
> 
> ...


Prophet,
Do you really think with all that venting I was talking about a 5 year old wanna-be dog trainer? I would classify the child as an amateur dog trainer, If he/she becomes a professional it knocks her out of the amateur AKC trials. No I'm talking about the (little knowledge is a dangerous thing) type of professional trainer that accepts money for loopy training tips and advice and very little actual results.

One of Jak's replies to me.
wvasko> No I didn't talk to my trainer. The trainer I had was totally positive reinforcement based (which I great, of course), and suggested before graduation just more back and forth training or releasing my dog's energy beforehand so he would be tamer on a walk.

Now please, I am not trying to demote the trainer. That being said could the trainer not have helped and guided him with the prong collar. If she did not because she is 100% against that type of work Ok. I can accept that. Is there a possibility she does not know how to use a prong or possibly not have the ability to read Jak's dog. You know that's what trainers must have to be competent. The ability to read a dog. Instead she gave the standard releasing the energy(exercise) again. Let's hear it for Jak who tried the prong and got positive results above and beyond what his trainer was able to do. The one good thing about all this is that I am enjoying the back and forth chit-chat and exchange of opinions.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Prophet,
> Do you really think with all that venting I was talking about a 5 year old wanna-be dog trainer? I would classify the child as an amateur dog trainer, If he/she becomes a professional it knocks her out of the amateur AKC trials.


That's part of the problem, there is no real definition of a professional dog trainer. Anyone can call themselves a professional dog trainer, and IMO, I'd like to see that change. But no, I do not think you would want to demote a 5 year old dog trainer. I merely wanted to point out the 5 year olds are dog trainer too, and we should do more to be constructive. The prong, as useful as it can be, is not a fix all, it comes with caution, and we can't advocate the tool when we don't know who's using it and on what dog. 



> One of Jak's replies to me.
> wvasko> No I didn't talk to my trainer. The trainer I had was totally positive reinforcement based (which I great, of course), and suggested before graduation just more back and forth training or releasing my dog's energy beforehand so he would be tamer on a walk.
> 
> That being said could the trainer not have helped and guided him with the prong collar.


The answer to your question is...it depends. We don't know what the trainer's curriculum was. I would imagine though, like most beginning training classes, the emphasis is on giving the dog a long history of reward. We could introduce aversions, but you'd also have to individually show what corrections were punishing and which were not, for every dog in the class. You can't do that in a training class, owners want to see results now, and that would take too much valuable time at showing how to reward your dog. In a one-on-one environment, however, it may be different...you can customize the training to the dog and handler. You can't screw up with untimely rewards, however, but you can screw up big time with untimely physical punishments. Trainer who train classes have to be aware of that, and structure their classes to avoid any classical conditioning fallout. They also need to give the owner time to know their dog, and they need to establish an environment for learning. If that environment includes physical aversions, too early in the training process, it not only gets frustrating for the dog, but soon the owner will get frustrated too...perhaps they will even amp up the aversion, and that's a dangerous stretch of road to go down. 



> The ability to read a dog. Instead she gave the standard releasing the energy(exercise) again. Let's hear it for Jak who tried the prong and got positive results above and beyond what his trainer was able to do.


There are results? We haven't heard of Jak weaning the collar off yet, have we? That would be proof of results. Jak has to test whether the collar is effective. If he walks his dog today and there are 100 leash corrections, and a week later he walks his dog and there are 100 leash corrections, the dog isn't learning anything, his training isn't working or the collar isn't working. He either needs to improve his training, or he has to find a punishment that does reduce the frequency of pulling.

Sorry for assuming you're a he Jak, it's purely an assumption.  



> The one good thing about all this is that I am enjoying the back and forth chit-chat and exchange of opinions.


I'm glad for that. That's what these forums are for.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

The answer to your question is...it depends. We don't know what the trainer's curriculum was. I would imagine though, like most beginning training classes, the emphasis is on giving the dog a long history of reward. We could introduce aversions, but you'd also have to individually show what corrections were punishing and which were not, for every dog in the class. You can't do that in a training class, owners want to see results now, and that would take too much valuable time at showing how to reward your dog. In a one-on-one environment, however, it may be different...you can customize the training to the dog and handler. You can't screw up with untimely rewards, however, but you can screw up big time with untimely physical punishments. Trainer who train classes have to be aware of that, and structure their classes to avoid any classical conditioning fallout. They also need to give the owner time to know their dog, and they need to establish an environment for learning. If that environment includes physical aversions, too early in the training process, it not only gets frustrating for the dog, but soon the owner will get frustrated too...perhaps they will even amp up the aversion, and that's a dangerous stretch of road to go down. 


There are results? We haven't heard of Jak weaning the collar off yet, have we? That would be proof of results. Jak has to test whether the collar is effective. If he walks his dog today and there are 100 leash corrections, and a week later he walks his dog and there are 100 leash corrections, the dog isn't learning anything, his training isn't working or the collar isn't working. He either needs to improve his training, or he has to find a punishment that does reduce the frequency of pulling.

Sorry for assuming you're a he Jak, it's purely an assumption.  


I'm glad for that. That's what these forums are for.[/QUOTE]
One of Jak's replies.
*(The rescue estimates Jak is around 3 years old, so he's no pup, and can get a big guy like me off my feat if he catches me off guard and gives me a good pull.)*

Jak did get a short term result, He may relax a tad (I said a tad) when walking his dog. I also told him to be in for the long haul 3-4-6 months or longer of work. My thoughts are if he had to and the dog walked quietly at his side for 10 years with a prong collar it would be better than a broken hip from a fall. If he breaks hip he can't work, if he can't work he can't feed dog. I figure if you can bring up a 5 year old dog trainer I could pull out the broken hip scenario.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> I figure if you can bring up a 5 year old dog trainer I could pull out the broken hip scenario.


Absolutely you can, it's a valid point, and I said as much when I stated he may be a candidate to use a prong collar. But I don't know Jak or his dog to say with certainty a prong collar is best for him. One controlled walk doesn't mean anything to me, that's not my goal for him. Jak (the dog) may be highly motivated by a good ol' game of tug, however, and if so, we can use that motivation to teach him how to walk nicely on a lead. We can amuse ourselves with hypotheticals all day, but if you're like me, your goal is for the training experience to be mutually enjoyable between owner and dog. If not, why own a dog. If Jak's dog doesn't like his training, it may not be long before Jak's dog doesn't like him. In which case, we really need to do more to wean the dog off the prong. And to be honest, I'd rather risk a broken hip than force my dog to do what should be pleasurable. Now, if Jak is an 80 year old grandma, and she has no desire to comply with the instruction I give her, perhaps the prong collar, as a long term management tool, is the better option. Perhaps. But I'm not convinced Jak is this person. To the contrary. I'm sure Jak would prefer a walk by simply clipping his lead onto his dog's everyday collar, instead of reaching for a prong. But, I'll own that assumption if I'm wrong.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

One thing I've found with Ollie is that once a serious aversion is introduced (such as punching him in the eye... I kid.) all that remains is verbal spoken tone.

In my case, yelling at him "hey!" had no effect in stopping his behavior. However, I noted that the first time I yelled "hey!" and he did not listen, and I grabbed him and pulled him away (he was eating the cat's food), my warnings had a more serious note to it. 

I never have to lay a hand on him and since then I've turned it into something of an positive association. After this incident he froze whenever I said "hey" (well, I always say nuh-uh, same thing). What I did from that point on was use different tones of hey. He knows that a light hey is a reminder, a louder and stricter hey is a big warning, and knows there IS some consequence to ignoring it.

So what I did was, every time I said "hey" and he stopped, I would give him a treat. After a bit, he wasn't as worried about consequence and being corrected was a postive thing.

It sounds like the Prong collar introduced that similar element (there is now a consequence, so he responds verbally on walks better).

Of course, I'm no trainer, and I'm sure that a lot of people will disagree with what I did with Ollie. I don't claim to be some kind of dog whisperer, I went with my gut and it worked. It's nice having a dog that, once corrected, looks at me in the eye with tail wagging instead of tucked between the legs.

But Ollie is Ollie, everyone else's dog is theirs, what worked for him won't neccessarily work for others.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Absolutely you can, it's a valid point, and I said as much when I stated he may be a candidate to use a prong collar. But I don't know Jak or his dog to say with certainty a prong collar is best for him. One controlled walk doesn't mean anything to me, that's not my goal for him. Jak (the dog) may be highly motivated by a good ol' game of tug, however, and if so, we can use that motivation to teach him how to walk nicely on a lead. We can amuse ourselves with hypotheticals all day, but if you're like me, your goal is for the training experience to be mutually enjoyable between owner and dog. If not, why own a dog. If Jak's dog doesn't like his training, it may not be long before Jak's dog doesn't like him. In which case, we really need to do more to wean the dog off the prong. And to be honest, I'd rather risk a broken hip than force my dog to do what should be pleasurable. Now, if Jak is an 80 year old grandma, and she has no desire to comply with the instruction I give her, perhaps the prong collar, as a long term management tool, is the better option. Perhaps. But I'm not convinced Jak is this person. To the contrary. I'm sure Jak would prefer a walk by simply clipping his lead onto his dog's everyday collar, instead of reaching for a prong. But, I'll own that assumption if I'm wrong.


Prophet, Statement 1. 1st one is your goal and it's a good one, but did not Jak (man) get some positive motivation by getting his dog to walk better. Who knows maybe he will like it and become an amateur trainer. 

*(One controlled walk doesn't mean anything to me, that's not my goal for him. Jak (the dog) may be highly motivated by a good ol' game of tug, however,)
*

Statement 2. I think people are more important in the long run, I wonder how many dogs get dumped or thrown away because of an owner injury. Through the years I have been bit a number of times. No complaint it's like a carpenter hitting thumb with hammer part of the risks involved. I wonder how many dogs get thrown away after a bite etc.

*(And to be honest, I'd rather risk a broken hip than force my dog to do what should be pleasurable.)*

Now no matter what today's attitudes are on correction training using a prong collar is not tantamount to setting off a nuclear device in the dog kingdom. You made a statement about 100 corrections 1 week, well how about 99 corrections the following week and then 98 etc etc etc. *especially if the other methods of training do not work. *


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## Sean01 (Nov 10, 2007)

You are right everyone's dog is everyones dog but it all boils down to the same thing. In the wild dogs are taught proper pack behavior through threats and controlled corrections. Essentially what you have taught Ollie is that when you say 'hey' you are warning him to stop the behavior much like a mother dog will put her pups entire head in her mouth and growl to let an over aggressive eating pup to chill out and be more gentle. Some dogs a threat is enough and since they have learned that nothing further will come of the warning as long as they stop they will go on about their merry business. You have unknowingly (or perhaps knowingly) established YOUR pack rules in a way that Ollie understands. The problem is we get alot of people who don't understand what it takes to form a succeful family pack and our dogs suffer by never fully understanding their place or the rules. Where you will most see this is with trainers such as curbside profit who try to tell people that training collars are inhumane and should be used as a last resort and that he(or she) never has to 'pop' the collar they just stop walking when the dog starts pulling. Here is where you run into the danger of someone who has bought into the extreme 'hug your dog' attitude which is only effective on a small number of dogs. These are the people who don't realize stopping and letting their dog pull with all their might that they are causing more damage than popping. Popping doesn't hurt at all unless the dog is wearing a prong or pinch collar where the force of the 'pop' totally changes. A real trainer teaches that we use only as much force that is needed. A true 'pop' is a jerk of the wrist that with flat collar does little more than jingle the the dogs tags, with choke collars barely tightens then releases. I have never had to pop using a prong collar or a pinch collar. In fact the point of those two collars is that you don't have to pop. The dog completely controls the level of correction.

I warn anyway against listening to people like Curbside Prophet. Even the trainers who pioneered positive training have came out saying that it's been taken to the opposite extreme. 

This line "You can't screw up with untimely rewards, however, but you can screw up big time with untimely physical punishments." shows that Curbside Prophet is not a real trainer and his advice should be taken with a grain of salt because in fact untimely awards can be just as detrimintal if not more so than untimely corrections. 

Curbside have you studied marker training at all? I mean its one of the most important lessons we learn.

I truly wish this forum did not exist as I see the moderation team giving out out bad advise constantly.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Sean01 said:


> You are right everyone's dog is everyones dog but it all boils down to the same thing. In the wild dogs are taught proper pack behavior through threats and controlled corrections. Essentially what you have taught Ollie is that when you say 'hey' you are warning him to stop the behavior much like a mother dog will put her pups entire head in her mouth and growl to let an over aggressive eating pup to chill out and be more gentle. Some dogs a threat is enough and since they have learned that nothing further will come of the warning as long as they stop they will go on about their merry business. You have unknowingly (or perhaps knowingly) established YOUR pack rules in a way that Ollie understands. The problem is we get alot of people who don't understand what it takes to form a succeful family pack and our dogs suffer by never fully understanding their place or the rules. Where you will most see this is with trainers such as curbside profit who try to tell people that training collars are inhumane and should be used as a last resort and that he(or she) never has to 'pop' the collar they just stop walking when the dog starts pulling. Here is where you run into the danger of someone who has bought into the extreme 'hug your dog' attitude which is only effective on a small number of dogs. These are the people who don't realize stopping and letting their dog pull with all their might that they are causing more damage than popping. Popping doesn't hurt at all unless the dog is wearing a prong or pinch collar where the force of the 'pop' totally changes. A real trainer teaches that we use only as much force that is needed. A true 'pop' is a jerk of the wrist that with flat collar does little more than jingle the the dogs tags, with choke collars barely tightens then releases. I have never had to pop using a prong collar or a pinch collar. In fact the point of those two collars is that you don't have to pop. The dog completely controls the level of correction.
> 
> I warn anyway against listening to people like Curbside Prophet. Even the trainers who pioneered positive training have came out saying that it's been taken to the opposite extreme.
> 
> ...


Well Sean01 
I thought I was a beacon waaaay off in some very dark place. if you go a few replies back where I do a little venting about the exercise answer or the ignore answer. My own opinion is that this is the answer given by SOME trainers who have no business on the end of an empty dog leash. Let alone one with a dog attached to it. They do not have the slightest idea what to do when they have run out of dog biscuits. Now that said, I don't care what methods they use and I will fight for their right to use them. I just wonder where these dogs are, the dogs I get to train *(this means I do the work, I don't do class or 1 on 1, it's kind of like taking your car to the mechanic. He fixes the car you pay him and drive off.)* are totally different type dogs. If I had never trained a dog and came to this forum for help, it would take me 17 years to get one trained. The statement of using only as much force as necessary is absolutely correct. In a perfect world no corrections would be needed. But one thing I do know is that it's very hard to unlock a closed mind. *I have been stating on all my replies that positive motivation is great but sometimes negative motivation is also needed*
Let's just say that Prophets methods that he/she likes and uses are successful with a large amount of dogs. That's also great but again as I stated above those are not the type of dogs that I get to train. I also have had my share of the hug me attitude training class graduated dogs to retrain because of having absolutely no consequences applied to them and they have become the dogs from hell until I fix them and make them functional in their family. This is not my hobby, or my week end job. This is my full/long time business.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Statement 2. I think people are more important in the long run, I wonder how many dogs get dumped or thrown away because of an owner injury. Through the years I have been bit a number of times. No complaint it's like a carpenter hitting thumb with hammer part of the risks involved. I wonder how many dogs get thrown away after a bite etc.


Too many is you ask me, but is that the point? We can manage our dogs to death, but at some point if we are going to fully enjoy our dogs, we have to teach them which behaviors are most favorable to them. This speaks to using motivations that the dog enjoys, not ones he can come to fear. And it's my opinion, most owners are looking for ways to train their dog that the dog will enjoy too. 



> Now no matter what today's attitudes are on correction training using a prong collar is not tantamount to setting off a nuclear device in the dog kingdom. You made a statement about 100 corrections 1 week, well how about 99 corrections the following week and then 98 etc etc etc. *especially if the other methods of training do not work. *


98 corrections would be improvement, but IMO, I'd rather see more than that, and I'm sure the owner would too. Your statement about corrections not being tantamount to a nuclear explosion is not accurate. Which dog are you talking about, and who's giving the correction? Remember, the punishment of the correction is defined by the dog, not you, and not what level you think a correction should be.



Sean01 said:


> In the wild dogs are taught proper pack behavior through threats and controlled corrections.


Dogs or wolves, or either? Does it apply to the human dog relationship? What proof do you have of this? Please don't tell me the Third Reich. 



> Essentially what you have taught Ollie is that when you say 'hey' you are warning him to stop the behavior much like a mother dog will put her pups entire head in her mouth and growl to let an over aggressive eating pup to chill out and be more gentle.


In no way can humans attempt to mimic the ritualistic behavior of dogs. We don't speak dog, and dogs don't speak human. However, dog's are quite capable of understanding that punishment may follow the word 'hey', and he may even learn that he should stop doing what he's doing, but this does not mean we are using communication that is natural to the dog. Dogs have always been capable of learning.



> Where you will most see this is with trainers such as curbside profit who try to tell people that training collars are inhumane and should be used as a last resort and that he(or she) never has to 'pop' the collar they just stop walking when the dog starts pulling.


I'd appreciate it if you didn't misquote me, or take my statements out of context. At no point did I say prong collars were inhumane. They can be if used improperly, and they can be if they are not punishing. But again, the punishment is defined by the dog, not you. Perhaps you've never seen a dog urinate on itself to the self correction of a prong collar? I have, and it was the wrong tool for the dog. Perhaps you've never seen a dog that was launched off the ground with a correction using a prong collar? I have, and it was the wrong tool for the dog. If we continue to think the prong is the right tool for these dogs, yes, we are entering the territory of abuse. 



> Here is where you run into the danger of someone who has bought into the extreme 'hug your dog' attitude which is only effective on a small number of dogs.


I hope you aren't confusing me with a purely positive dog trainer, because you would be sadly mistaken. 



> Popping doesn't hurt at all unless the dog is wearing a prong or pinch collar where the force of the 'pop' totally changes.


I believe you're being anthropomorphic now, and isn't that what you we're accusing me of earlier? Shame on you.



> A real trainer teaches that we use only as much force that is needed.


Who says we need to use force at all? Any trainer who thinks this is a fool. A real trainer teaches owners how to work through the dog's motivations. Perhaps fear is one of them, but of the owners I've met, few care to use fear.



> I warn anyway against listening to people like Curbside Prophet. Even the trainers who pioneered positive training have came out saying that it's been taken to the opposite extreme.


That's your opinion, and I'm sure anyone with basic comprehension of dog training can select which advice is best for them. I like my chances if you're the one they are comparing advice with. 



> This line "You can't screw up with untimely rewards, however, but you can screw up big time with untimely physical punishments." shows that Curbside Prophet is not a real trainer and his advice should be taken with a grain of salt because in fact untimely awards can be just as detrimintal if not more so than untimely corrections.


This speaks to how little you understand learning theory. 



> Curbside have you studied marker training at all? I mean its one of the most important lessons we learn.


I think we understand now what your intent is with your post. I kindly ask that you remain constructive or please do not participate in our forum. These kinds of statement will not gain you any brownie points with me, I assure you.



> I truly wish this forum did not exist as I see the moderation team giving out out bad advise constantly.


Then please don't visit.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Uh, since some words were put into my mouth.

First, Ollie is not a wolf, as much as he may have the appearance of one.

Second, I am neither wolf nor dog, as much as some women have told me so.

He is not my pack, he is family, and free to do as he is so inclined as long as it does not bother anyone. My correction to him has nothing to do with packs, threats, anything like that. It has everything to do with helping someone that's part of my family.

I take 99% of traininv advice with a grain of salt online. They don't know Ollie, and I wouldn't ask a stranger how to raise a family member.

I do learn what various methods there are but all I choose is what I believe would allow me and him to be happiest, not to function as some strange dog-wolf and human-wolf imaginary relationship.

You all are free to do as so inclined. I will say, I have more respect for someone who has been helping people postively for years, than someone who has a few posts and flames a very helpful person for having a differing opinion on training.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Prophet, When you talked about you would rather have the broken hip rather dog being unhappy, your credibility took a big slide downhill with me. 

*98 corrections would be improvement, but IMO, I'd rather see more than that, and I'm sure the owner would too. Your statement about corrections not being tantamount to a nuclear explosion is not accurate. Which dog are you talking about, and who's giving the correction? Remember, the punishment of the correction is defined by the dog, not you, and not what level you think a correction should be.*

Now let us discuss the above. 1st off, I read the dog and then I define what corrections that I think are necessary, otherwise I would have to put collar on my neck and dog holds the lead. That is what dog training is all about. Reading dogs and having the knowledge, the confidence etc in your own ability to make the proper correction/reward etc for the dog. This is not guess work by me, *I know what correction/reward to make and whatever proper adjustments needed after the 1st correction/reward. * again thats what competent dog trainers in the real world do, no matter what methods they use. My nuclear explosion wasn't for one particular dog it was dogs in general. Theoretically I am always talking about me giving the corrections. Remember 47 links ago I was the one, that would not advise Jak to use the prong collar. But I did mention collar as a tool. He made decision as he will continue to do with his dog not me. One of my main reasons to be on forum is to make people aware of other training methods.


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## Sean01 (Nov 10, 2007)

First of all prophet flamed me first in a previous thread. Second of all if you think your dog thinks of you as anything other than a member of his pack I disagree. However I apologize to prophit. A differing opinion does not make either of us a better trainer as long as the dog and owner are taught correctly. I only hope that you give me the same courtesy.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

RBark
*You all are free to do as so inclined. I will say, I have more respect for someone who has been helping people postively for years, than someone who has a few posts and flames a very helpful person for having a differing opinion on training.*

Yes that's what it's all about. If you were talking about me, please remember I was and still am being paid for the work I do. If I assumed incorrectly and it wasn't me I apologize. 

Prophet
*I think we understand now what your intent is with your post. I kindly ask that you remain constructive or please do not participate in our forum. These kinds of statement will not gain you any brownie points with me, I assure you.*

I thought opinions aired were much more important than brownie points. I find that disappointing, My opinion only.

Prophet
*Perhaps you've never seen a dog urinate on itself to the self correction of a prong collar? I have, and it was the wrong tool for the dog. Perhaps you've never seen a dog that was launched off the ground with a correction using a prong collar?*

In the 1st instance self correction dog urinating on itself 100% correct wrong tool. 
2nd instance the launching, a very wrong trainer.
The big point is that there are also many dogs helped by a prong *used* properly.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I was referring to sean's criticism of Curbside. You and Curb obviously have different views and aside from a few misunderstandings of each other, you have been civil so it was not in reference to you.

I don't know what kind of trainer you are and I'm sure you are excellent. I also think Curbside is an excellent trainer.

In a field of so many training styles conflict like this is the norm. How people act during conflict, and how they react to harsh criticism is what sets one apart from the rest.


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## Mastiffluvr (Jan 7, 2008)

Thank God I am not a trainer. I don't see how you all have the time or the energy to carry on such a debate.

You guys have to be tired.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Mastiffluvr said:


> Thank God I am not a trainer. I don't see how you all have the time or the energy to carry on such a debate.
> 
> You guys have to be tired.


We just got to have stuff to do in between poop-scooping adventures.



RBark said:


> I was referring to sean's criticism of Curbside. You and Curb obviously have different views and aside from a few misunderstandings of each other, you have been civil so it was not in reference to you.
> 
> I don't know what kind of trainer you are and I'm sure you are excellent. I also think Curbside is an excellent trainer.
> 
> In a field of so many training styles conflict like this is the norm. How people act during conflict, and how they react to harsh criticism is what sets one apart from the rest.


Thank You for the being civil remark


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## Sean01 (Nov 10, 2007)

Well I guess I'm poop. I am sorry I reacted he way I did. Can you guys forgive me?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Prophet, When you talked about you would rather have the broken hip rather dog being unhappy, your credibility took a big slide downhill with me.


 Please read my statement again, you did not quote me accurately. I did not say I would rather “have” the broken hip; I stated I would “risk” a broken hip. And yes, my dog is that important to me that I would take that risk for her benefit. I’m sure many dog owners would. If that ruins my credibility as a dog owner and trainer with you, I’d rather not have your respect. My dog comes first over your respect. 



> My nuclear explosion wasn't for one particular dog it was dogs in general.


 That’s all well and good, but please be considerate of your voice and your audience. Generalizations like that can make an otherwise good dog appear as if something is wrong with them, when the problem is not likely with the dog, but in an inappropriate use of the physical correction. I don’t know how to say it any more clearly, but you CAN’T teach physical corrections on the internet. You MUST test whether the correction is punishing, and you can’t speak of that in generalities. The use of physical punishment may not be necessary at all. And anyone who advocates that it is a must or good or user error when it fails, frankly, has a warped sense of what dog training should be. It should be fun, and enjoyable for every being involved. Yes, for safety physical aversions may be necessary, especially if it will keep the dog alive, but no, the use of physical corrections in dog training is not desirable, and we MUST work at avoiding them. That’s the only way to define our humanity, when the dog’s life is not at risk. 



> I thought opinions aired were much more important than brownie points. I find that disappointing, My opinion only.


 Actually no, it’s written in our forum rules that attempts to flame a member is NOT allowed. We can have opinions and speak on ideas, and we have done so constructively for the most part, but you may not speak on other members poorly. You should be thankful these rules are in tact here. 



> 2nd instance the launching, a very wrong trainer.
> The big point is that there are also many dogs helped by a prong *used* properly.


 I did not paint the picture clearly, that’s my fault, I apologize. I was attempting to refer to a dog that did not react to any physical corrections, regardless of the trainer’s experience or force. These dogs do exist, and the onus is on the trainer to be a bit more creative. Again, the punishment is defined by the dog, not the one holding the leash.


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## Dharlee (Dec 31, 2007)

I have been reading this thread with interest. I have a new dog, Scruffy. He was a stray about 15 months old. He is a terrier mix with all the hard-headedness that implies. He only wieghs 15 lbs, but wow can he pull on a leash. I am a 53 year old woman who is partially disabled. I can't walk this dog. I can barely walk myself lol. My son is kind enough to walk the dog for me, and he only stays at his side with the use of a gentle leader. He tried removing it last week, but he went right back to pulling so it was put back on him.

Before posting on these forums, I spent a lot of time reading them. I am in no way knowledgeable about training. I am now trying to train, but we are just starting. I have a great deal of respect for many of you who post here, and I don't understand why the Dinosaur Dog Trainer is being flamed so hard for his opinion or advice. Again, this is from someone who is no trainer, but also is no stranger to dogs. If I lived near him, I would seek his advice as it seems to me that he really cares about dogs. Many of the things he said have been misconstrued IMHO. For example (I am not going to go back and copy/paste so forgive mistakes) when he said that about sending him the money for doggie diplomas I could tell he was joking, couldn't most of you?

I just wanted to add a positive post in a thread that I for one really need to understand more about.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Dharlee said:


> I have a great deal of respect for many of you who post here, and I don't understand why the Dinosaur Dog Trainer is being flamed so hard for his opinion or advice.


I don't believe wvasko is being flamed at all. I think what Jak was looking for, were alternate methods for teaching his dog to walk loosely on a lead. The discussion turned into the appropriateness of physical aversions, specifically the use of prong collars. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I deem it necessary to be very clear about how we advocate the use of physical aversions. The use of physical corrections comes with caveats, and we all should be aware of them, before deciding to use them. I would not confuse this point with wvasko being flamed, to the contrary. 



> when he said that about sending him the money for doggie diplomas I could tell he was joking, couldn't most of you?


Tone is not always clear on an internet forum.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dharlee said:


> I have been reading this thread with interest. I have a new dog, Scruffy. He was a stray about 15 months old. He is a terrier mix with all the hard-headedness that implies. He only wieghs 15 lbs, but wow can he pull on a leash. I am a 53 year old woman who is partially disabled. I can't walk this dog. I can barely walk myself lol. My son is kind enough to walk the dog for me, and he only stays at his side with the use of a gentle leader. He tried removing it last week, but he went right back to pulling so it was put back on him.
> 
> Before posting on these forums, I spent a lot of time reading them. I am in no way knowledgeable about training. I am now trying to train, but we are just starting. I have a great deal of respect for many of you who post here, and I don't understand why the Dinosaur Dog Trainer is being flamed so hard for his opinion or advice. Again, this is from someone who is no trainer, but also is no stranger to dogs. If I lived near him, I would seek his advice as it seems to me that he really cares about dogs. Many of the things he said have been misconstrued IMHO. For example (I am not going to go back and copy/paste so forgive mistakes) when he said that about sending him the money for doggie diplomas I could tell he was joking, couldn't most of you?
> 
> I just wanted to add a positive post in a thread that I for one really need to understand more about.


Yes it was an attempt at humor because obviously nobody in their right mind would send somebody money for something that was absolutely useless.
Thank You for your kind words.



Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't believe wvasko is being flamed at all. I think what Jak was looking for, were alternate methods for teaching his dog to walk loosely on a lead. The discussion turned into the appropriateness of physical aversions, specifically the use of prong collars. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I deem it necessary to be very clear about how we advocate the use of physical aversions. The use of physical corrections comes with caveats, and we all should be aware of them, before deciding to use them. I would not confuse this point with wvasko being flamed, to the contrary.
> 
> 
> Tone is not always clear on an internet forum.


Well prophet yes, I believe you flamed me, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks so. When you questioned my credibility a few posts back, I thought I handled it good. It's ok if your dog come 1st over your respect of me. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'm a complete stranger to you of absolutely no importance in your life. I myself think respect has to be earned, that's pretty hard to do with 2 strangers with different ideas on a forum. I think the big surprise is that you don't realize you flamed me. One nice thing about being a trainer that sometimes uses negative motivation is that I have to be patient with my dogs to make sure I do the correct action. Helps me deal with people also.



Sean01 said:


> Well I guess I'm poop. I am sorry I reacted he way I did. Can you guys forgive me?


Hey Sean01 
you did not say anything that I found offensive, but I think I'm in the doghouse to.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Just an oberver from afar here as well. I was thinkin, you could put the "consult a professional" thing at the top and tidy things up by 3-4 pages.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

Wow. This thread really has exploded. But I think its been a good discussion so far. I am far from a professional dog trainer, so I really don't have the experience to add anything of substance to the debate on physical corrections.

But I thought I would update you guys on Jak since I had the chance to do two 30 minute walking sessions with him this afternoon. 

From what I saw in the hour, Jak really has done well with the prong. Its kind of strange actually. In the residential blocks where there is a lot of grass to sniff and its more quiet, he is much better at keeping the leash loose. But for some reason there is this one stretch of sidewalk that faces a street with consistently a bit of traffic. Whenever we make it to that portion he really begins to pull again. So I've been stopping as soon at the leash gets tight, and starting again when he walks back towards me. But I guess it hasn't clicked yet, because as soon as I'd move forward again he'd run back the the end of the leash, over and over again until we finally make it back into the residential area. I don't know what it is, but I'm thinking maybe its because Jak can't hear my footsteps or my voice over the cars...


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

You've got a deaf husky too? They are pretty common  

I kid  

I've decided that he never "didn't hear me". I could be a mile away, and whisper a command, and he heard me, but will pretend he didn't. "Sit, Ollie!" He turns away acting like he just heard something in the distance. I used to think he got distracted, but I'm convinced now. He hears me from everywhere, anytime, through soundproof barriers, just pretends not to or acts like he's busy.


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## Dharlee (Dec 31, 2007)

I have a question that pertains to this discussion. Scruffy (as previously mentioned, a 15 lb terrier mix, 15 months old adopted stray, most likely abused, but with a wild and wonderful personality) pulls and pulls hard on a leash, but walks beautifully for my son with a gentle leader. Is there a point that a dog trained this way will finally stop pulling on a regular collar, or do some dogs always need the collars once you have begun to use them? I guess this might be a stupid question, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask...


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

RBark said:


> You've got a deaf husky too? They are pretty common
> 
> I kid
> 
> I've decided that he never "didn't hear me". I could be a mile away, and whisper a command, and he heard me, but will pretend he didn't. "Sit, Ollie!" He turns away acting like he just heard something in the distance. I used to think he got distracted, but I'm convinced now. He hears me from everywhere, anytime, through soundproof barriers, just pretends not to or acts like he's busy.


Lol selective hearing in dogs..nice. Yeh, you are right on that one now that I think about it. If I eat anything...a chip on the other side of the room at 3 in the morning while Jak is asleep, he will wake up and bolt in my room and get into a "sit" while he's still half asleep. Hearing can't get better than that..

Dharlee> Well with all training aids the goal is to be able to eventually walk your dog with a simply flat buckle collar. So I know for certain training aids aren't meant to be permanent but I really can't offer any advice on transitioning back to a normal collar from a Gentle Leader...


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Ollie likes to sleep, a lot. In the morning he won't even get up for a treat. He's like a teenager (just a few more minutes, dad!!!). Which is unusual because he will do ANYTHING for a piece of the same kibble I give him for breakfast and dinner every day. Just one kibble. LOL.

He also falls in a deep sleep on my bed that, unlike my father's labs (who I almost never let sleep on my bed - they stink, even when washed! LOL), Ollie will curl up into a ball and fall into a DEEEEEEEP sleep that sometimes I have to check if he's still alive. Which is nice because he doesn't take up much space on the queen bed so no dogs sprawled about (well, he does it rarely).

So it takes him about 45 minutes to be half awake. He's never really awake until about 5 minutes into our morning run. Always funny watching him do his "wobble run" in the beginning. Is Jak like that in the morning?

But yeah, he will hear the faint sound of me reaching into the treat bag from upstairs. But he doesn't hear me talk to him? Bah, humbug. LOL.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

RBark > Yup Jak is the same way. When I first got him he was a really light sleeper, the smallest sound would wake him up. But now he's really comfortable. When I can't sleep I'll go into the living room and sit on the couch that he sleeps on, and he won't even move. Which makes him absolutely useless as a guard dog but thats OK lol. Jak does the wobbly thing too, I know exactly what your talking about lol. How old is Ollie again?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Jak said:


> RBark > Yup Jak is the same way. When I first got him he was a really light sleeper, the smallest sound would wake him up. But now he's really comfortable. When I can't sleep I'll go into the living room and sit on the couch that he sleeps on, and he won't even move. Which makes him absolutely useless as a guard dog but thats OK lol. Jak does the wobbly thing too, I know exactly what your talking about lol. How old is Ollie again?


He's 2 1/2. But yeah, Ollie is a pretty terrible guard dog. I've sometimes theorized that a burglar would come into my room, shoot me, and in the morning Ollie will wake up, and FINALLY notice I'm laying in a pool of blood next to him.


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## Sean01 (Nov 10, 2007)

Dharlee said:


> I have a question that pertains to this discussion. Scruffy (as previously mentioned, a 15 lb terrier mix, 15 months old adopted stray, most likely abused, but with a wild and wonderful personality) pulls and pulls hard on a leash, but walks beautifully for my son with a gentle leader. Is there a point that a dog trained this way will finally stop pulling on a regular collar, or do some dogs always need the collars once you have begun to use them? I guess this might be a stupid question, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask...



Thats the problem with the Gentle Leader/Halti. Dogs do not generalize behaviors well so many won't understand that walking is walking and the rules stay the same. They become accostomed to walking politely when the see or feel the Head collar. I would suggest mixing it up. One day doing the head collar and teaching 'NO' and slight correction when the dog runs ahead. (DO NOT JERK THE COLLAR, LIGHTLY TUG IT. THE POINT IS TO GET THE DOGS ATTENTION! THIS IS WhERE INJURY CAN HAPPEN IF IT IS OVER DONE.) The next day do a flat collar and use the same 'NO' and correction. The correction with the flat collar will take a little more of a tug but the point is more to rattle the collar. REMEBER LAVISH THE DOG WITH PRAISE WHEN IT IS WALKING CORRECTLY! Speak in a higher pitched tone during the praise.

If that doesn't work I suggest contacting a professional trainer in your area who will have other methods.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dharlee said:


> I have a question that pertains to this discussion. Scruffy (as previously mentioned, a 15 lb terrier mix, 15 months old adopted stray, most likely abused, but with a wild and wonderful personality) pulls and pulls hard on a leash, but walks beautifully for my son with a gentle leader. Is there a point that a dog trained this way will finally stop pulling on a regular collar, or do some dogs always need the collars once you have begun to use them? I guess this might be a stupid question, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask...


Dharlee, There are no stupid questions, but sometimes the answers aren't so good. As Jak told you yes the goal would be, to eventually walk dog with regular buckle collar. That said, I'm still waiting for the wisdom that's suppose to kick in as a person gets older. Well that's not going to happen. Life is not perfect. If your little dog always needs the gentle leader that's not so bad with the exception that sometimes with the dog wiggling around etc it's hard to get on. Look at it this way, if you had a chronic injury and had to use a cane you would make it through life fine. Then you would have 2 permanent tools. cane/gentle leader. I was wondering are you are able to walk your dog with the leader on. I have a couple of over 70 years of age (boarding customers)that have a very large Dobe female that is a pulling freak. They love the gentle leader and have used it for 3 years.



Sean01 said:


> Thats the problem with the Gentle Leader/Halti. Dogs do not generalize behaviors well so many won't understand that walking is walking and the rules stay the same. They become accostomed to walking politely when the see or feel the Head collar. I would suggest mixing it up. One day doing the head collar and teaching 'NO' and slight correction when the dog runs ahead. (DO NOT JERK THE COLLAR, LIGHTLY TUG IT. THE POINT IS TO GET THE DOGS ATTENTION! THIS IS WhERE INJURY CAN HAPPEN IF IT IS OVER DONE.) The next day do a flat collar and use the same 'NO' and correction. The correction with the flat collar will take a little more of a tug but the point is more to rattle the collar. REMEBER LAVISH THE DOG WITH PRAISE WHEN IT IS WALKING CORRECTLY! Speak in a higher pitched tone during the praise.
> 
> If that doesn't work I suggest contacting a professional trainer in your area who will have other methods.


Sean 
Please check my reply to Dharlee, I am going to leave this problem completely to you. We have some flooding here after some extreme rain the last couple days and my energy is needed elsewhere.
Good Luck


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Well prophet yes, I believe you flamed me, I guess I'm not the only one who thinks so. When you questioned my credibility a few posts back, I thought I handled it good.


Then my apology. I was merely trying to point out were you could be more constructive. And yes, you handled it very well.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

A gentle leader can be dangerous there is no question.... if someone uses a head collar and gives their dog a pop it can harm the dogs neck 

however, to say that they are a permanent tool is also incorrect. I did start my dogs on a gentle leader for those moments only that I could not take the time to train them. On the way into the vet, those kinds of situations.... every other time I didn't use it as I was able to take the time to train a loose lead walking.... 

my concern about physical corrections is that people can and will go to the extreme with them as was seen with other posters hitting their dog.... 

and that you can't properly train them over the internet... you can't see the dog and the person a slight jerk to one person may be something completely different to another..... 

I do give my dogs an occasional jerk on their lead..... the hey wake up kinda jerk..... but I also know which of my dogs can handle it (although the question is always should they have to? at least in my mind) but I have seen to many people take this idea of a slight jerk on the leash and go to extremes where I have seen dogs scream...... 

these types of methods can not be taken lightly and should be trained by a professional IN PERSON..... not over the internet..... 

the other thing is to recognize that if the person is saying that a gentle leader or head harness is a permanent piece of equipment then that is not correct either.... in the same way that a prong collar can serve a purpose until the person trains their dog to walk nicely without it..... a gentle leader serves a purpose until the dog is trained as well..... 

any tool can become a crutch if a person doesn't take the time to really train their dog. 
s


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## Dharlee (Dec 31, 2007)

Thanks guys for the replies. Scruffy walks beautifully with the gentle leader for my son. What we were doing is, he comes over and walks Scruffy (who needs a lot more exercise) and I walk Snickers (my 11 year old tired-like-me-senior poodle- I don't have to walk very far or very fast and we both get winded lol). So honestly I haven't tried it because he needs to go faster and for longer. But i thought about switching to mornings and trying to walk both my boys for the short walk, just for the small exercise for us old folks and the companionship for both dogs. Then Bill can walk Scruffy to wear him out later. I have to walk with a cane, so I need to do this the first time with Bill so that I know I can manage it. But if he behaves for me like he does for Bill then there should be no problem. He never pulls with the gentle leader on, at least not for Bill.

Once again, thank you.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Dharlee said:


> Is there a point that a dog trained this way will finally stop pulling on a regular collar, or do some dogs always need the collars once you have begun to use them?


Theoretically, no, the gentle leader does not offer instruction. The onus is on the owner to show the dog why a loose leash IS the best scenario for him. Plus, training isn't transferable. Your son can teach your dog not to pull when they walk, but as Sean mentioned dogs do not generalize well, so it does not mean the dog will walk nicely with you. At some point, if you wanted to walk your own dog without the gentle leader, we'd have to find a way that you too can teach your dog that a loose leash is preferred and the most rewarding.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dharlee said:


> Thanks guys for the replies. Scruffy walks beautifully with the gentle leader for my son. What we were doing is, he comes over and walks Scruffy (who needs a lot more exercise) and I walk Snickers (my 11 year old tired-like-me-senior poodle- I don't have to walk very far or very fast and we both get winded lol). So honestly I haven't tried it because he needs to go faster and for longer. But i thought about switching to mornings and trying to walk both my boys for the short walk, just for the small exercise for us old folks and the companionship for both dogs. Then Bill can walk Scruffy to wear him out later. I have to walk with a cane, so I need to do this the first time with Bill so that I know I can manage it. But if he behaves for me like he does for Bill then there should be no problem. He never pulls with the gentle leader on, at least not for Bill.
> 
> Once again, thank you.


Dharlee, I had no idea that you were walking with a cane(I must have missed that) sorry. I would go for walk with your son, let him handle the older dog while he's there as your back up program with you handling the younger dog. My own opinion is to get you a base of operations that can be expanded on down the line. 1st step, see how you can at least handle your pup for emergency type walks (son gets sick or whatever) If short walks so pup can dump etc are possible then all else follows. Obedience, collar weaning etc etc etc. This program would also give you a feeling of independence, (being able to walk your own dogs)
There has been mention of hurting the dogs with gentle leader. In my opinion only, If you are just wanting to walk your dog and not attempt training. It should help you. 5 yrs ago I trained a 9 month old golden that had been hit by a car and actually had a disc replaced in his back. I decided to use a gentle leader collar as I thought it would be easier on the dog. It was, I had no problems at all. I don't know if any of this useless history trivia will help you, but it gives you another view.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

I've been watching these threads for a few days. The discussion is what invites me to share my experience with three sled dogs. Other forums just turn into he-said-she-said-I'm-right-you're-wrong. With that being said, it sounds like the heel might have come one step early. My two malamutes learned heeling very quickly with just the turn around corrections. So then a friend of mine says "make my husky do that." That's when I started immersing myself in training books, articles, and threads. What ended up working for him was the 15' lead with a standard belt collar. We went to a nearby school with a 7 acre field, and began the exercise by walking 50'-100' then stopping for 3-5 minutes at each stop, 4-6 stops. The first day was filled with howls and pawing, ignore dog and don't "pop" leash. I didn't give him praise or treats until our arrival home. After a week he began to just sit at my side when I stopped watching me for the first step in a new direction. Then when we moved on to a 6' leash he was surprisingly receptive to the turn around corrections he had previously ignored. Now he is to the point where he will heel off lead for about a mile. Something I thought sled dogs were hard wired not to do. As for our Yorkshire terrier/poodle mutt, her heel came accidentally. She was one that had never been on a leash in her life and had used her previous home as her bathroom, dog run, bed, etc. When I put a leash on she went into whirlwind rolls and screeches. So I put her on a treadmill. I'm thinking that by standing at her side while praising her for continued forward movement, she got used to being in "that spot". Once she was used to the leash, she almost instinctively stuck in "that spot". She turned out easy, I don't think I've turned around on her more than five times ever. 

That's part of my story, and I included the salt for you as well.  









Here's the crew. Ridik, Bubba, Tambi, Coco, and Sioux.


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## Sean01 (Nov 10, 2007)

Just had to tell you harrise you have beautiful dogs



Dharlee said:


> Thanks guys for the replies. Scruffy walks beautifully with the gentle leader for my son. What we were doing is, he comes over and walks Scruffy (who needs a lot more exercise) and I walk Snickers (my 11 year old tired-like-me-senior poodle- I don't have to walk very far or very fast and we both get winded lol). So honestly I haven't tried it because he needs to go faster and for longer. But i thought about switching to mornings and trying to walk both my boys for the short walk, just for the small exercise for us old folks and the companionship for both dogs. Then Bill can walk Scruffy to wear him out later. I have to walk with a cane, so I need to do this the first time with Bill so that I know I can manage it. But if he behaves for me like he does for Bill then there should be no problem. He never pulls with the gentle leader on, at least not for Bill.
> 
> Once again, thank you.


I also have a border terrier mix and there is never a dull moment.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

harrise said:


> I've been watching these threads for a few days. The discussion is what invites me to share my experience with three sled dogs. Other forums just turn into he-said-she-said-I'm-right-you're-wrong. With that being said, it sounds like the heel might have come one step early. My two malamutes learned heeling very quickly with just the turn around corrections. So then a friend of mine says "make my husky do that." That's when I started immersing myself in training books, articles, and threads. What ended up working for him was the 15' lead with a standard belt collar. We went to a nearby school with a 7 acre field, and began the exercise by walking 50'-100' then stopping for 3-5 minutes at each stop, 4-6 stops. The first day was filled with howls and pawing, ignore dog and don't "pop" leash. I didn't give him praise or treats until our arrival home. After a week he began to just sit at my side when I stopped watching me for the first step in a new direction. Then when we moved on to a 6' leash he was surprisingly receptive to the turn around corrections he had previously ignored. Now he is to the point where he will heel off lead for about a mile. Something I thought sled dogs were hard wired not to do. As for our Yorkshire terrier/poodle mutt, her heel came accidentally. She was one that had never been on a leash in her life and had used her previous home as her bathroom, dog run, bed, etc. When I put a leash on she went into whirlwind rolls and screeches. So I put her on a treadmill. I'm thinking that by standing at her side while praising her for continued forward movement, she got used to being in "that spot". Once she was used to the leash, she almost instinctively stuck in "that spot". She turned out easy, I don't think I've turned around on her more than five times ever.
> 
> That's part of my story, and I included the salt for you as well.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you did a great job and I bet you had fun doing it, keep up the work.



Shalva said:


> A gentle leader can be dangerous there is no question.... if someone uses a head collar and gives their dog a pop it can harm the dogs neck
> 
> however, to say that they are a permanent tool is also incorrect. I did start my dogs on a gentle leader for those moments only that I could not take the time to train them. On the way into the vet, those kinds of situations.... every other time I didn't use it as I was able to take the time to train a loose lead walking....
> 
> ...


shalva 
*any tool can become a crutch if a person doesn't take the time to really train their dog. 
*

some people can't train dog and don't have money for training and using a crutch may be the only option open to them to keep their loved one.


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