# Easy Walk harness?



## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

I read about the Easy Walk in another thread and thought it might help curb my dog's pulling. The online videos of it in use were pretty impressive... I was wondering if anyone here had used it before and how effective it was for them.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

We use them at my dog obedience club. The members that have them say they work great.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

nico8 said:


> I read about the Easy Walk in another thread and thought it might help curb my dog's pulling. The online videos of it in use were pretty impressive... I was wondering if anyone here had used it before and how effective it was for them.


I love it and everyone I know who uses one loves it, and your dog will love it much more then a head halter.

It is not, however, useful for training your dog not to pull. As soon as you take it off, your dog will go back to pulling.


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## mrslloyd09 (Jul 12, 2009)

We tried one for Mandie before we went w/ the head harness. I liked the Easy Walk except Mandie's an awkward size and no matter what we tried she managed to wriggle loose.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> I love it and everyone I know who uses one loves it, and your dog will love it much more then a head halter.
> 
> *It is not, however, useful for training your dog not to pull.* As soon as you take it off, your dog will go back to pulling.


I realize it isn't a substitute for proper leash training but doesn't it, at least, make the dog more controllable on the leash? And would it be possible to loose-leash train with one of these on?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> I love it and everyone I know who uses one loves it, and your dog will love it much more then a head halter.
> 
> It is not, however, useful for training your dog not to pull. As soon as you take it off, your dog will go back to pulling.


There is no magic cure all for pulling. As with every piece of equipment, they are just tools, you still need to do the training to make it work. The easy walk harness, like the head halter, helps to make training easier than if you used a regular buckle collar. 

We use the easy walk harness regularly on walks with our dog. We train him to not pull, but we still use the easy walk harness because it gives us more control and is probably a bit easier on his neck than a regular buckle collar when he hits the end of the leash. 

The easy walk harness is excellent, I highly recommend it. The dog certainly likes it a lot more than a head halter, and it gives the owner more control. One thing you have to be careful with is that if your dog pulls a lot on it, he can chafe himself. We solved this by slipping a pad over the part where he was getting chafed.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I used one with Nash while teaching him to walk on a loose leash, now he walks with a collar. I have met a few people whose dogs were able to get out of them, so for safety you may want to clip a 2nd leash to the collar or use a coupler, clipping one part to the collar and one part to the harness. I have a martingale collar, so I just clipped my leash to that and the harness.


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## moluno (Apr 29, 2009)

I love it. It's a good training tool and is useful in more distracting situations. Juno tends to be okay on a leash for the most part, but she still goes bonkers when we walk past people or other dogs, so I still walk her with the harness because then I can control her without a struggle. (Or if we go to the pet store, vet... just a lot easier to put it on her and KNOW we won't be in a situation where she gets too excited and out of control). 

The only problem I've had with it is that when Juno gets distracted by something behind us, she's able to turn her head around and focus on it, and I have nothing controlling her head. This could be solved by just having another leash clipped to the collar, but I always forget to do that!


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I thought about getting one for bella but opted for the gentle leader instead. The easy walk I found doesn't help with pulling and doesn't make your dog "turn around" as it pulls... when I walked my sister's apbt who is working on not pulling I found that the harness would just get crooked but not disrupt the pulling.

I'm not saying don't get it.. its obvious people have had success. I just wanted to share a not so good opinon of it.

I have had great success with the gl however... but some dogs don't tolerate them well. It all depends on your dog and its personality.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Honistly whenever I see a post about needing a "no-pull" harness, the first thing that comes to my mind is, "get an X-back" LOL.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Keechak said:


> Honistly whenever I see a post about needing a "no-pull" harness, the first thing that comes to my mind is, "get an X-back" LOL.


Haha I wish...can't do much sledding down here in Alabama, though.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> I love it and everyone I know who uses one loves it, and your dog will love it much more then a head halter.
> 
> It is not, however, useful for training your dog not to pull. As soon as you take it off, your dog will go back to pulling.


Not if you train them and then transition slowly. I do this with my students. Once the dog has the hang of it with the easy walk, we attach the leash to the collar TOO, then go from there. It works. I did it with Sadie, and Hadley (Hadley did the GL, but same concept.)


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

nico8 said:


> Haha I wish...can't do much sledding down here in Alabama, though.


you don't need a sled to use an X-back I use a bike or roller blades


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

nico8 said:


> Haha I wish...can't do much sledding down here in Alabama, though.


When Mesquite and I go hiking, I wear my canicross harness and she wears her harness or backpack. She pulls me, and she's become an expert at navigating trails. My fiance took her on a 60-mile hike using this setup. Actually, it was more like she took him on a hike; the trail was apparently so overgrown in some places that Mesquite was the only one who could find it!

As for the Easywalk...I really like the concept, and I've tried it, but it didn't work for us. Mesquite is just a weird shape: narrow from shoulder to shoulder, but very deep-chested. The front of the harness had way too much give and would just shift to the side, like a previous poster wrote.

Now we're on a Halti, but that hasn't been working very well either. Good thing we're starting another training class this weekend


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

- works very well in my experiance
- can be a little uncomfortable but can also be flipped and used like a conventional harness when dog stops pulling
- can be backed out of by an escape artist dog


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

I really appreciate all of the replies so far. Let me reiterate that's I'm not looking for a magic cure all for pulling on the leash , just something that I can use other than a standard buckle collar while training her to walk on a leash. For those that have used both the Easy Walk and the Gentle Leader, which would yall recommend? I don't think Nico would have a problem with the GL if that's what actually works best.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

There's no question the gentle leader head halter is more effective as it gives you ultimate control of the dog (control of the head), but I think it's rare to find a dog who doesn't mind it. If your dog likes the gentle leader halter, then you're in luck. Most of the time, trainers recommend desensitization exercises by associating the nose loop with a treat.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

The GL annoys most dogs, but it does give you more control over their whole movement. I'd start with the Easy Walk, and try it for a week. If you don't like it, exchange it for the GL.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

qingcong said:


> but I think it's rare to find a dog who doesn't mind it. If your dog likes the gentle leader halter, then you're in luck.


I am under the impression that MOST trainers/people/advertisers,ect report that this (the GL) is a non aversive approach that causes no discomfort or stress to the dog. ?? Maybe I am wrong.

Maybe that was in the beginning and things have since changed with more data.


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## Leroy&Lucy'sMom (Mar 2, 2009)

I've used it on Lucy, it did NOT work for us...
Only thing that has worked is the GL. She only tries to rub it off if we stop and stand around, otherwise she tolerates it just fine. 
Good luck!
Oh, btw, i dont know how much your dog weights but if you want a medium easy walk harness for free (you have to pay for shipping though), i would be happy to send it to you... Lucy only used it once.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Like I said the GL works great for me and Bella (although I haven't used the easy walk).

The day I put it on her the pulling stopped. Every once in a while she trys to get cheeky and acts like she's sniffing then tries to rub it off but thats rare.

Like everyone else said and you already know its a training mechanism. Unfortunately my training is basically on halt since I can't constantly reinforce it being away at college and such but my ultimate goal is to have Bella walking calmly on the leash with just a collar.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

sparkle said:


> I am under the impression that MOST trainers/people/advertisers,ect report that this (the GL) is a non aversive approach that causes no discomfort or stress to the dog. ?? Maybe I am wrong.
> 
> Maybe that was in the beginning and things have since changed with more data.


It's non aversive in that it's not a tool designed to give sharp physical corrections like a prong or choke collar, but it's definitely something that requires most dogs time to get used to. 

Trainers are well aware that dogs typically don't like it at first. Our local Petsmart trainer and Victoria Stilwell both recommend the treat through the nose loop trick to get the dog associating the nose loop with positive experiences.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

qingcong said:


> It's non aversive in that it's not a tool designed to give sharp physical corrections like a prong or choke collar, but it's definitely something that requires most dogs time to get used to.
> 
> .


I would take it that there are different LEVELS to physical aversives?

Would clamping pressure across the muzzle and forcing a dogs head to one side (or down) be considered aversive? Should a dog hit the end of the leash at more than a (designed) force level the GL becomes even more aversive to include possibility for injury. It is very difficult sometimes in certain cases (especially initially) to prevent a dog from hitting the end of the leash with other than a very mild force. The amount of physical consequence a dog might recieve from tension on the leash will vary greatly from one persons usage to the next to include any injury from the fitting or dogs discomfort/dislike/stress in desire of or effort in removing the tool.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

There is aversive, and there is also humane. The GL is a humane aversive, like a water bottle or a loud clap. 

A kick is a non humane aversive.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Leroy&Lucy'sMom said:


> Oh, btw, i dont know how much your dog weights but if you want a medium easy walk harness for free (you have to pay for shipping though), i would be happy to send it to you... Lucy only used it once.


I sent you a PM regarding this


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

jesirose said:


> There is aversive, and there is also humane. The GL is a humane aversive, like a water bottle or a loud clap.
> 
> A kick is a non humane aversive.


Hmmm I am not sure that I would define getting water squirted in my eye/s as humane considering that this could be painful. I also am not sure that having my head forced to one side so humane especially if not done so very mildly and slowly. Another thought would be on the issue of humane verses less/more human... I would think it more humane to give one good correction on a rubber tipped prong collar and resolve a undesired behavior than to give lets say 5 shots of water in the eye (or so called less aversives) ..over a period of time....and still have not resolved the issue.


Or what about about the issue of the many injuries and stress that dogs are reported to have experienced in rubbing issues and injuries caused by dogs pawing at the discomforting contraption?

I am not sure that I would classify these experiences more humane than getting a few proper corrections on a flat collar or even a prong collar.

I guess it just depends on what one persons definition of humane is...verses more or less humane.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

sparkle said:


> Hmmm I am not sure that I would define getting water squirted in my eye/s as humane considering that this could be painful. I also am not sure that having my head forced to one side so humane especially if not done so very mildly and slowly. Another thought would be on the issue of humane verses less/more human... I would think it more humane to give one good correction on a rubber tipped prong collar and resolve a undesired behavior than to give lets say 5 shots of water in the eye (or so called less aversives) ..over a period of time....and still have not resolved the issue.
> 
> 
> Or what about about the issue of the many injuries and stress that dogs are reported to have experienced in rubbing issues and injuries caused by dogs pawing at the discomforting contraption?
> ...



Personally, I'd rather not put pressure on her neck and throat if I can avoid it. I've used a flat collar for years and I'm tired of hearing that choking sound caused by the dog pulling against it's collar. In my opinion, a GL is much more humane than the possible alternative, trachea damage caused by pulling against a flat collar. To each his own


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I've used on ALL my dogs, from the Pug to the Masiff and it works GREAT with the proper training behind it, remember it's a TOOL not a miracle though and training is important.



sparkle said:


> Hmmm I am not sure that I would define getting water squirted in my eye/s as humane considering that this could be painful. I also am not sure that having my head forced to one side so humane especially if not done so very mildly and slowly. Another thought would be on the issue of humane verses less/more human... I would think it more humane to give one good correction on a rubber tipped prong collar and resolve a undesired behavior than to give lets say 5 shots of water in the eye (or so called less aversives) ..over a period of time....and still have not resolved the issue.
> 
> 
> Or what about about the issue of the many injuries and stress that dogs are reported to have experienced in rubbing issues and injuries caused by dogs pawing at the discomforting contraption?
> ...


It's more humane using the EW, than any other collar as it doesn't put ANY pressure on the head, neck or Trachea. Even head collars can do damge if used improperly or if you have a dog that lunges (I've seen some ugly neck injuries from head harnesses). You also have to desensitize a dog to a head harness. The EW eliminate ALL of that and is just as, if not more effective against pulling. 

As far as the EW vs Prongs, I have a friend (female, 105 soaking wet) that was dragged across a busy intersection by her nearly 200lb panicked Mastiff in a prong, using the same training she was able to effectivly STOP her mastiff if he started pulling on the EW without injury to herself or her dog.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

sparkle said:


> Hmmm I am not sure that I would define getting water squirted in my eye/s as humane considering that this could be painful.


Who said anything about water in the EYE? That is certainly NOT what I said.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

I guess it depends on how one uses a aversive regardless of how the tool is/ or is not designed to work. .......I guess some aversives are simply more humane than others.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

sparkle said:


> Hmmm I am not sure that I would define getting water squirted in my eye/s as humane considering that this could be painful. I also am not sure that having my head forced to one side so humane especially if not done so very mildly and slowly. Another thought would be on the issue of humane verses less/more human... I would think it more humane to give one good correction on a rubber tipped prong collar and resolve a undesired behavior than to give lets say 5 shots of water in the eye (or so called less aversives) ..over a period of time....and still have not resolved the issue.
> 
> 
> Or what about about the issue of the many injuries and stress that dogs are reported to have experienced in rubbing issues and injuries caused by dogs pawing at the discomforting contraption?
> ...


What you list are unintended consequences of the gentle leader. If someone was skilled enough to give a few proper corrections on a prong collar, then they should be skilled enough to not let the dog hit the end of the leash on a GL. On the other hand, an unskilled handler who lets the dog get whiplash on the GL would probably just as easily hurt a dog with a prong collar since they'd have no idea how to apply corrections. 

Would you consider a pen a weapon? You can take a pen and impale someone with it like a knife, but the primary design of the pen is not for weaponry. The same deal applies with the gentle leader, just because a dog can potentially hurt himself on it does not make the GL an aversive. Its primary design is not to inflict a sharp physical aversive like a prong collar.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

It's still aversive even if you use it correctly. So is the Easy Walk - the dogs just don't fight the easy walk as much.

So, you put the GL on, and get the dog to sit politely at your side. Take a step, reward, etc. If you can do all that with the GL on perfectly, you can do it with a buckle collar. 

In order to need a GL and for it to actually make a difference, the dog is going to pull at some point. Now, it partially depends on how far you let them get before you stop them that dictates how rough the correction it gives is. If you're walking along jerking the GL, that's not right. But if the dog gets a foot ahead and you use the GL to assist in changing direction, that is an aversive, but not harsh, or whiplash.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

jesirose said:


> It's still aversive even if you use it correctly. So is the Easy Walk - the dogs just don't fight the easy walk as much.
> 
> So, you put the GL on, and get the dog to sit politely at your side. Take a step, reward, etc. If you can do all that with the GL on perfectly, you can do it with a buckle collar.
> 
> In order to need a GL and for it to actually make a difference, the dog is going to pull at some point. Now, it partially depends on how far you let them get before you stop them that dictates how rough the correction it gives is. If you're walking along jerking the GL, that's not right. But if the dog gets a foot ahead and you use the GL to assist in changing direction, that is an aversive, but not harsh, or whiplash.


Well said in my opinion and I would agree 

As is my point that a GL is designed as (according to the manufacturers various discriptions over the years) and can be/is used in a aversive way.

Is it possible for someone to use a GL in a nonaversive way..Yes... but highly unlikely when considering what many have said and reported in the usage of the GL...

I think we can safely assume that we will just have to agree to disagree...


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

So is a flat buckle collar an aversive as well? If a dog hits the end of the leash on that, he is going to choke and gag. A leash correction with the flat collar can be more unpleasant than a correction with a prong collar.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Ive used an Easy Walk with Buster for about 3 months now. He was right about 6 months old and 80ish pounds and randomly doing zoomies with me at the other end of a 6' leash. I needed to regain control NOW. 

He's now 9 months old, 126lbs and still wearing his harness every time we leave the property. He has no issues with me putting it on him (lots of treats at first, but he's a "soft" sometimes fearful puppy) and walks like a gentleman while we're out...even with the distraction of a squirrel! I have him near several 4 year olds (youngest childs preschool class) almost daily. The Easy Walk gives me the control I need so that he doesnt barge over and knock a child down. The kids might weigh 30-40lbs.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

So is a flat buckle collar an aversive as well?>>> yes 

In my opinion it depends on the dog. Some do well with the harness others pull

some do well with the GL some hate it to the point that to me its torture (for the dog and the owner) to condition them to it.

I have had dogs that you put a prong on and they dont ever pull again, Ive also had a dog that had a 15 minute fit because a prong was on befoe she even had a correction. 

Ive had dogs on flat collars that pulled and choked themselves and ones that did not with no/minimal training.

some of this is common sense and knowing the dog.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Is giving a dog a generic dog treat an aversive because the corn filling can cause allergies or other health problems?


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

qingcong said:


> Is giving a dog a generic dog treat an aversive because the corn filling can cause allergies or other health problems?


No...

http://www.google.com/search?q=defi...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

What if the dog hates it?


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

If the dog hates a treat, they probably wouldn't eat it


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

sparkle said:


> I am under the impression that MOST trainers/people/advertisers,ect report that this (the GL) is a non aversive approach that causes no discomfort or stress to the dog. ?? Maybe I am wrong.
> 
> Maybe that was in the beginning and things have since changed with more data.





sparkle said:


> Well said in my opinion and I would agree
> 
> As is my point that a GL is designed as (according to the manufacturers various discriptions over the years) and can be/is used in a aversive way.
> 
> ...



I don't get it. One minute you are saying the GL is supposed to be a non aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's non aversive, the next minute you are saying that the GL is designed as an aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's an aversive. 

Did trainers and manufacturers change what they had to say all of a sudden? Why must you always disagree with me? Woe is me!


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

qingcong said:


> I don't get it. One minute you are saying the GL is supposed to be a non aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's non aversive, the next minute you are saying that the GL is designed as an aversive because trainers/manufacturers say it's an aversive.
> 
> Did trainers and manufacturers change what they had to say all of a sudden? Why must you always disagree with me? Woe is me!


Are you serious?

My comment was a tongue-in-cheek counter opinion as many do report that there are issues with a dog stressing out on a GL for a host of reasons and on the contrary it is my opinion and experience in talking with and listening to people it is somewhat common for dogs not to LIKE the GL.

JUst google it.

Actually many trainers in the beginning who where/are primarily against the use of aversives jumped on the GL band wagon and did not see the usage of a GL as aversive....a lot has changed since then. I have talked with many trainers who have changed there viewpoints on the GL when considering the issues that have arisen in thier usage over time as being somewhat less than pleasurable,.

I hope your not upset in having to come to terms with the fact that a GL was designed to be used aversively...


I may not have been so clear in making my point....something I do need to work on apparently.

just my 2 cents worth


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## ypperin (Nov 17, 2009)

My favorite no pull harness is the EZYdog

An ezy dog harness is a specialized harness perfect for large breed dogs, to be completely successful it should be paired with an ezy dog leash.

The harness has a durable, reinforced with a flexible rubber (though fully covered and very stylish I might add) pad that sits from the collar bone down between the dogs front legs and with time moulds to fit the dog's shape. It is a one step harness meaning that the dog's front foot must be placed and then the harness is closed with two clips. The harness serves multiple purposes. 

1. with the pad position and unique way of holding the straps it stops the rubbing and pinching under the arms typically caused by common harnesses.

2. When the owner pulls on the lead, pressure is applied in a down/back motion on the collar bone with out causing issues on the dogs airway and neck.

3. Should the dog continue to pull, instead of the owner being thrust forward the dog is pulled, supported by the central pad, so that his front legs are no longer on the ground thereby removing leverage over the owner.

As well the harness has a seatbelt attachment which comes in very handy for those pooches that have issues in the car.

The lead I use with the harness is a "mongrel" lead with 2 extensions. This offers versatility to the owner on several levels.

The "mongrel" is a t-bar (like a water skiing handle) format with a comfortable grip that won't squeeze the hand if/when the dog pulls. It is ultra short (12") and when used alone, is great for teaching the "heel" command as the dog is incapable of pulling away and because of it's length he is kept close to you. It is highly useful when dealing with a dog near busy streets and highways as well when an owner is unsure of a dog's response to a new situation.

The entensions are a "bungy" style and are 24" long. For large breeds two, in my opinion, is necessary. This bungy works on multiple levels as well. When placed side by each, both attached to the mongrel and the harness, this bungy will act as shock absorption for the owner, while relaying tension to the dog, deterring the dog from pulling. This bungy is encased in a mesh lead so it is not exposed though definitely not recommended as a "chew toy" LOL.

When wanting a longer lead, the extensions are easily placed one after the other still giving shock absorption but allowing a long lead for the dog.

When we became fosters of Augie, who had never been walked on a leash and is an 80lb, perfectly toned and muscular weim, it was physically impossible for me to walk him outside our backyard without it (believe me I tried). I have tried halti's and easy walkers, having had the luxury of working in the pet industry, reps like me to use my pooch as a guinea pig for their contraptions, and every time I've had to foster a puller, I end up right back with the EZYdog. As well, after five days with us, Augie, who gleefully pulled the rescue across my lawn with a regular lead, is now pacing beautifully beside me on a slacked lead and I can comfortably control him, this harness has proved invaluable over and over and over again, and if you get the option to see it and see how it works, I would definitely recommend it to anyone dealing with pulling issues.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

You lost me at "relaying tension to the dog, deterring the dog from pulling". Have you never heard of opposision reflex?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

sparkle said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> My comment was a tongue-in-cheek counter opinion as many do report that there are issues with a dog stressing out on a GL for a host of reasons and on the contrary it is my opinion and experience in talking with and listening to people it is somewhat common for dogs not to LIKE the GL.
> 
> ...



Okay okay, I didn't get your TIC comment at first as the internet hides tone of voice. 

I don't need to google it, I know dogs generally don't like the GL, that's what I've been saying all along. I've experienced it with my dog, the local Petsmart trainer acknowledges it, I've seen it on TV, etc. You don't have to convince me that dogs don't like it.

No, I'm not upset over anything and no one has really convinced me that the GL is an aversive tool. Really, I think labeling the GL as an aversive tool is mostly a matter of semantics. An argument can be made for either viewpoint. 

The definition of aversive in terms of behavior modification is: Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification. 

What I would like to point out in this definition of aversive, is that the punishing stimulus has a direct effect causing avoidance of something.

You use a prong or choke collar to lessen a certain behavior using a punishing stimulus (leash correction). Prong and choke collars clearly fit the definition of aversive.

You touch a hot stove and burn your finger. In the future you learn to avoid touching hot stoves because of the punishing stimulus. The hot stove clearly fits the definition of aversive.

A dog wearing a flat buckle collar who hasn't been trained in loose leash walking, lunges to the end of the leash and chokes. Is this an example of an aversive stimulus? Not exactly, even though there is an apparently punishing stimulus, dogs don't avoid lunging in the future. If they are never taught loose leash walking, they will continue lunging no matter how painful it is.

A gentle leader is designed to stop pulling. In order to say that the GL is an aversive training tool, one would argue that a dog learns to stop pulling because the GL provides an aversive stimulus that creates an avoidance of pulling. There are some flaws to this argument that I will describe below -

A dog finds the nose loop of the GL uncomfortable. Does that make the nose loop aversive? I suppose it does, but the aversiveness of the nose loop has nothing to do with teaching a dog to avoid pulling. All that means is that the dog learns to avoid the GL, as the GL itself has become an aversive stimulus. 

The aspect of the GL that gets a dog to stop pulling is the fact that it dictates the direction of a dog's head. When a dog pulls, his head gets yanked to the side. So the real question is, when the dog gets his head yanked to the side, is that a clear example of aversive? No, it is not, it's not as direct effect as the hot stove example. Clearly, the act of getting your head yanked to the side is an unpleasant stimulus, but is it this unpleasant stimulus that causes a dog to avoid pulling? No, the reason the dog stops pulling is that he no longer has control over where he wants to go - because we are controlling his head. 

Like I said, to me it's a matter of semantics. Certainly there are unpleasant aspects of the GL, but that doesn't necessarily make it a clear cut aversive training tool. If professionals want to start calling the GL an aversive training tool, fine, whatever. My stance is stated above, and I ask that you consider for yourself what it means to be aversive before blindly going along with what the internet says or what an advertiser says.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

qingcong said:


> The definition of aversive in terms of behavior modification is: Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.
> 
> What I would like to point out in this definition of aversive, is that the punishing stimulus has a direct effect causing avoidance of something.
> 
> A.


I think possibly one should not confuse a aversive or punisher with a CORRECTION.

It is quite possible and quite probable in many cases that a dog experiencing a physical aversive (sometimes quite severe) might not and will not change/modify it's behavior to prevent the aversive from being introduced again. Same thing with a punisher I would assume.

So to say that a aversive WILL always modify a behavior seems incorrect in my opinion. A physical aversive or punisher can be anything from unpleasant, discomfortable, to painful in my opinion and have no bearing on changing behavior to still qualify as a aversive..I believe.


If one studies the design of the GL it seems to me that it is obvious what/where stimuli is being administered at various degrees of tension or force present on the leash. Maybe it all is a matter of what the dogs feels and possibly we can never know for certain in some/many cases......especially in the cae of MILD aversives. I wonder if stress can be considered a aversive? Would anyone consider force training a aversive or compulsion training aversive or a aversive? What about restraint? Is flooding considered a aversive?

IF HOWEVER the definition of a aversive requires that behavior must be extinguished from re-occuring than I would certainly be wrong in my understanding of the term....which could be the case????? LOL and not the first time. In which case would not a correction and a aversive have the same definition?
HMMM


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## ypperin (Nov 17, 2009)

jesirose said:


> You lost me at "relaying tension to the dog, deterring the dog from pulling". Have you never heard of opposision reflex?


Very much so, this harness does not continuously apply pressure, and has worked wonders for me, and being a foster of large breed dogs, and regularily having dogs who are either not trained or ill trained and already 80-120 lbs, this has not only worked, but has trained and the dog has retained a good easy walk after a few weeks use.... in Augie's case after 5 days use. I no longer have to use the system with him, I can use a simple buckle collar and a slack lead. This to me in invaluable..... let alone not having to go to the doctor because of the abuse on the arm.  Hey it's just my two cents and thought it might help to relay what worked for me with numerous large breeds.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

*aversive- Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.*


If we are going by this definition of aversive, then IMO it does not fall into the category of an "aversive". There is no unpleasant or punishing stimulus, *if used correctly*.The dog not being able to control where it goes is not a "punishing stimulus". If used incorrectly, with jerking and tugging motions on the dogs head and neck as soon as they exhibit an unwanted behavior, then yes it would be aversive.

The collar itself is a restraint. It allows the handler to more easily restrict the movement of the dog, but in no way does the collar use an "unpleasant or punishing stimulus".

A CORRECTION is aversive, an anti-bark collar is aversive, a choke collar is aversive,a shock collar is aversive, a prong collar is aversive... all of these were designed to inflict a sudden, unpleasant stimulus at the exact moment the dog "screws up". The stimuli mechanism is literally built in to the collar; therefore the collar itself is aversive. 

With the GL there is no stimuli mechanism. Just saying the collar is unpleasant to wear doesn't make it aversive. It's unpleasant because it's itchy, poorly fitted, or just not a natural feeling for the dog. There is no mechanism built into the collar that produces an unpleasant or punishing stimuli at the point of unwanted behavior.

The GL can be used as an aversive, just like any other collar, that just depends on the handler. The second a correction is made, the collar has been used aversively. But, in my opinion, that just puts the GL in the same group as a flat collar...selectively aversive. It's all up to how you use it. Just my 2 cents...



ypperin said:


> Hey it's just my two cents and thought it might help to relay what worked for me with numerous large breeds.


Thank you for the recommendation ypperin. I hadn't heard of the EZYdog, but I will definitely check it out.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

sparkle said:


> I hope your not upset in having to come to terms with the fact that a GL was designed to be used aversively...


Maybe this applies to me



http://www.johnknowsdogs.com/gentle-leader-explained.htm

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/gentle_leader.html


In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive. There are two types of aversive stimuli:
[edit] Unconditioned aversive stimuli
Unconditioned aversive stimuli naturally result in pain or discomfort and are often associated with biologically harmful or damaging substances or events. Examples include extreme heat or cold, bitter flavors, electric shocks, loud noises and pain. Aversives can be applied naturally (such as touching a hot stove) or in a contrived manner (such as during torture or behavior modification).
[edit] Conditioned aversive stimuli
A conditioned aversive stimulus is an initially neutral stimulus that becomes aversive after repeated pairing with an unconditioned aversive stimulus. This type of stimulus would include consequences such as verbal warnings, gestures or even the sight of an individual who is disliked.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

nico8 said:


> *aversive- Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus, as in techniques of behavior modification.*
> 
> 
> If we are going by this definition of aversive, then IMO it does not fall into the category of an "aversive". There is no unpleasant or punishing stimulus, *if used correctly*.The dog not being able to control where it goes is not a "punishing stimulus". If used incorrectly, with jerking and tugging motions on the dogs head and neck as soon as they exhibit an unwanted behavior, then yes it would be aversive.
> ...



Yep, I agree with this. You said it in a much clearer way than I did.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive. 



Would it then be accurate to say (from the text book definition of a aversive) that any stimulus *regardless* of the discomfort level that does not meet this specified critera of eliminating behavior from repeating/avoidance ....IS NOT/would then not be CONSIDERED AVERSIVE?

In otherwords does the administered or experienced stimuli have to act as a correction (not a attempted one) in order to be defined as a aversive?

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

sparkle said:


> In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow you're diving way deep into this...but to answer your question, no. The administered stimulus doesn't have to immediately change the dog's behavior for it to be considered aversive. The fact that there is *administered stimulus*, with the intention to correct, makes it aversive. Some dogs can walk right through prong collars, choke collars, spray collars, shock collars with no problem, but the collars are still aversive if by intent alone.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

nico8 said:


> ...but to answer your question, no. The administered stimulus doesn't have to immediately change the dog's behavior for it to be considered aversive. The fact that there is *administered stimulus*, with the intention to correct, makes it aversive.


SO based on your answer/explaination then would this be a accurate shortened MODIFIED definition of a aversive.............certain elements omitted.

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is *possibly but not necessarily reduced.*

Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). 

I am not sure if the omissions to the original definition would not dramatically change the intent.


To go deeper... based on the above modification in the definition of a aversive I would assume then that we could then define a correction as a stimuli that likely will reduce/extinguish/modify behavior but does not neccessarily have to in order to qualify as a correction.
????????????????????????//


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Sure, a correction is basically a euphemism for aversive stimulus. The effectiveness of a correction does not really have anything to do with whether or not it qualifies as a correction. If an aversive stimulus is applied with the intent to decrease a behavior, then it is a correction. If it doesn't work, it's still a correction, just an ineffective correction.

Back to the GL argument, probably the most unpleasant aspect of it is the nose loop. Dogs generally hate the nose loop. The nose loop itself becomes an aversive stimulus, because dogs try to avoid it. My dog even started running away from the sight of the nose loop. In this respect, sure, you can argue that the nose loop of the GL is an aversive, but the GL wasn't designed to scare dogs of nose loops was it?

The intended operation of the GL is to guide a dog's head. This makes the GL a non aversive training tool. Certainly you can make it an aversive tool by jerking the dog's head around, just as you can make a pen a weapon by stabbing someone with the tip.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Ok I get it now.. I think

A correction does not really have to change anything to be a correction.

A aversive does not have to change anything to be a aversive..

In dog training, positive punishers are typically called "corrections" or "compulsion" and involve the addition/use of force, discomfort, a startle reaction, irritation,or even pain and fear. 

Certain forms of Force training may not be aversive but is considered compulsion so therefore if used correctly a GL is simply designed as a compulsion training tool. The force that a GL is design to generate is not (should not act as) a aversive but could be considered a correction in that the GL can condition a dog not to pull,jump up,bark,lunge,ect according to the designer and manufacturer as referenced in a prior post. The administration of a correction does not need to be aversive, punishing, or result in a change of behavior to be considered one. 

so when considering the below definition....
verbal warnings and gestures can be a aversive as long as they (have been paired) are considered unpleasant/irritating and induce changes in behavior as a punisher.

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (such as an electric shock). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive.

Contents [hide]
1 Types of aversive stimuli 
1.1 Unconditioned aversive stimuli
1.2 Conditioned aversive stimuli
2 Use in ABA
3 References
4 See also
5 External links

[edit] Types of aversive stimuli
Main article: Classical conditioning
There are two types of aversive stimuli:

[edit] Unconditioned aversive stimuli
Unconditioned aversive stimuli naturally result in pain or discomfort and are often associated with biologically harmful or damaging substances or events. Examples include extreme heat or cold, bitter flavors, electric shocks, loud noises and pain. Aversives can be applied naturally (such as touching a hot stove) or in a contrived manner (such as during torture or behavior modification).

[edit] Conditioned aversive stimuli
A conditioned aversive stimulus is an initially neutral stimulus that becomes aversive after repeated pairing with an unconditioned aversive stimulus. This type of stimulus would include consequences such as verbal warnings, gestures or even the sight of an individual who is disliked.





Am I confused or what?

Is thier someone with a skillset that can get through to a hard skull like mine?

I need help!

The only thing I have learned for sure is that the GL was not designed to be used aversively but rather compulsively regardless of the likelyhood that aversive results can occur.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

qingcong said:


> Back to the GL argument, probably the most unpleasant aspect of it is the nose loop. Dogs generally hate the nose loop. The nose loop itself becomes an aversive stimulus, because dogs try to avoid it. My dog even started running away from the sight of the nose loop. In this respect, sure, you can argue that the nose loop of the GL is an aversive, but the GL wasn't designed to scare dogs of nose loops was it?
> 
> The intended operation of the GL is to guide a dog's head. This makes the GL a non aversive training tool. Certainly you can make it an aversive tool by jerking the dog's head around, just as you can make a pen a weapon by stabbing someone with the tip.


Well said.


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## 2houndsdesign (Nov 8, 2009)

We offer a patented no-pull harness that has a front connection and a martingale loop connection on the back of the dog. This allows you to walk your dog from the back, keeping the spine in alignment, while the martingale loop tightens slightly around the chest to prevent pulling. 

We are in the process of launching a new site, let us know what you think! http://www.wiggleswagswhiskers.com/newsite.html


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## REB (Sep 18, 2009)

When we first got Mac he didn't know how to walk on the leash without pulling, and he'd end up choking himself when we passed a dog or a squirrel or... anything. The Gentle Leader definitely kept Mac from pulling and gave us more control over his head. We thought he'd get used to the nose loop over time, but after 2 months, he still hated it (pawing at his face to get it off!). We switched to the Easy Walk and have had much better luck. He's learned to walk with the leash loose with the harness, and on the rare occasions that I clip the leash to his regular collar, he doesn't really pull much on that anymore, either.

Quick question about the Easy Walk, though-- the last week or two, Mac has started shying away slightly as we put the harness on him, although he loves his walks and knows that harness=walk. It's not too tight, and I thought maybe I'd accidentally pinched him once as I put it on without knowing it, and so he started getting nervous? Mac's not generally an anxious dog, so this is kind of weird and unusual for him. Any theories?


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Hadley and Sadie did the same thing. 

I spent a few weeks giving them a treat every time I put the harness on, and it stopped. Just give the treats through the harness, they can't eat it unless the harness goes on.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm not really one for harnesses, as the original general concept FOR a harness was for pulling...Lol! I think for a dog who's been taught how to walk nicely on a lead, it can be an option for walking, however, I think it is easier for a dog to revert to behaviors like pulling, because a harness makes it easier, due to not having control of the head or neck. 

A dog may not 'like' a GL but that is my tool of preference over a 'no pull' harness. You just have to spend a bit of time getting the dog to accept a GL, but once that's done, you can resume training easily. I use treats to help a dog understand the GL isn't something to be feared.


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