# The use of "negative reinforment"



## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

First I do need to buy a couple more pounds of patience for myself, this is week 4 with our 9 month old Golden retriever who was poorly trained by it's original owner.

I work at home and spend alot of time with her, overall things are going great! I am following the advise of experts (which i am NOT), positive reinforcement training.

But she still will not obey the command come when off the lease (invisible fence has been installed). 

It seems the dog understand there is no negative consequence when ignoring the command 'come'. So I have been debating the use of a training collar (tone and electrical shock) and combine negative consequence with positive reinforcement.

Any suggesting or opinions would be highly welcomed.


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## Shoul (May 8, 2012)

I think the advice is mostly going to go along these lines for this forum: I would not use the shock collar to teach your dog anything.

Why not use a long lead so you can always drag him back if he doesn't come? I would also potentially up your treat reward when he does come when called in the backyard. Something like hot dogs or delicious leftover meat (chicken, pork, beef, tuna, etc..). You have to remember that whatever reward he gets for coming to you has to be better than running free in your yard, at least for the first few training session until you can tell your dog understands. Start with practicing come with your dog at a close distance (you want them to easily succeed at the start) and slowly build up more and more distance. Even if you've already trained the come command indoors, it's always a whole new ball game and most dogs just forget what they learned in a new environment.

I would not use a shock collar because it is easy to make mistakes. Accidentally shocking the dogs when he made a quick split second decision to come to you is a good way of installing fear in your dog to certain commands. There's also no way for your dog to discriminate as to what he is supposed to do to make the shocking stop, especially if it hasn't clearly been outlined to the dog what he's supposed to do (ie: by training him with rewards the way outlined above - but then you also shouldn't need a shock collar). In my opinion, there are too many things that can go wrong that will cause a dog to be fearful. For example, one dog might just shut down and stand there not moving for hours when he is repeatedly shocked for going in any direction other than yours.

Also, for the exercise I outlined for giving treat rewards, try and recall your dog and set him free again right away many times. If your dog only has to go inside (where the fun stops) 1/10 times when he comes to you, he'll have more incentive to come and it'll likely turn into a fun game between the two of you. Also sounding happy and cheerful everytime you call him always helps.

I'm not sure how much of this you already knew, but I just figured I would try and iterate over a number of things and hopefully fill in a few knowledge gaps.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

In reward based training, you don't try to create negative consequences when the dog doesn't respond to a command. Any time the dog fails to comply, it's simply feedback to you about where the dog finds value. If the dog doesn't come when you call, it's because sniffing that piece of poo or dead animal is more interesting than you. So the way to fix it is to make it more fun to come to you, and to keep practising this loads and loads until it's so much fun to come that the dog doesn't even think twice about it. When you get to that point, you can always release the dog back to what it was doing as a bonus reward.

Using punishment for basic training is like punishing the dog for your bad training.

Of course you can use a negative consequences for non-compliance, but if you're going to use correction collars you NEED to get a professional trainer to show you how to do it correctly. Slapping an e-collar on the dog and using it without knowing all the rules for the correct use of aversives in training has a very high risk of negative side effects. So if you're going to do it, you need to do it right.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

ModMark said:


> It seems the dog understand there is no negative consequence when ignoring the command 'come'. So I have been debating the use of a training collar (tone and electrical shock) and combine negative consequence with positive reinforcement.
> 
> Any suggesting or opinions would be highly welcomed.


you don't want a negative consequence...you want the dog to think, that coming to you i the best thing in the world. so what i did, i had my dogs very favorite treat always available...and whenever you call and he comes, he gets that treat...and only then. he will soon learn that there is nothing better than listening to you.
also, you can practice with a long leash. call your dog and wheel him in, then give treat (use harness).
and never NEVER punish for not coming! or he will learn that coming is a bad thing. always praise, when he comes to you.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Using punishment for basic training is like punishing the dog for your bad training.
> 
> Of course you can use a negative consequences for non-compliance, but if you're going to use correction collars you NEED to get a professional trainer


To be clear, I got the dog at 9 months old and I doubt for the first 9 months of her life, she never responded to the command come. So you are correct, this dog has been trained to ignore the command come, I need to correct this behavior.

For the past two weeks I been using long leasing training on walk thru the woods and down the street, I gotten great results by the way. She no longer pulls on the lease, is starting to heel and will come on command if the lease is attached.

It is the off lease training which is the problem. 

I will seek expert advice on training collars, that is why I am posting these question on a dog forum.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

stick to the long leash longer! two weeks is not a long time. and try to reward with high value treats when she comes. you have to practice the command "come" in different situations. it takes a long time, until a dog is 100% reliable with recall in ever situation. there is probably a lot of interesting things out in the woods for your dog...and you have to make yourself more interesting than the woods. i do not think you should use a "training" collar.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I have one dog that I did use a collar for, I got him at 4 years old and NOTHING was more rewarding to him then whatever he was doing if he didnt have a long line on then he knew darn well he could blow me off and there was not a thing I could do about it. Collar solved that in one day 5 years later he still gets a treat everytime he comes when called but I don't care at least he will actually come for a reward now lol. That said I didn't do this till I had had him for a year and all other methods failed. I would keep trying a long line and heavy rewards, you h ave only had him a month give it some more time.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

Salina said:


> and never NEVER punish for not coming! or he will learn that coming is a bad thing. always praise, when he comes to you.


Understood and agree 100%, when she comes give her praise and a treat then say OK and let her roam some more in the backyard. 

So the question I have, why is a negative consequence wrong when a dog chooses to ignore your command? With a shock collar, give the dog an audio warning or zap of electric then praise her when she she does come. 

And please understand in my situation, once she obey off the leash then from my backyard we can take a daily walk thru the woods, go swimming in a pond with no leash. Her quality of life will drastically improve, did this for 20 year with my first two golden's......


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

ModMark said:


> To be clear, I got the dog at 9 months old and I doubt for the first 9 months of her life, she never responded to the command come. So you are correct, this dog has been trained to ignore the command come, I need to correct this behavior.
> 
> For the past two weeks I been using long leasing training on walk thru the woods and down the street, I gotten great results by the way. She no longer pulls on the lease, is starting to heel and will come on command if the lease is attached.
> 
> ...


I would retrain the recall with a different command, if the dog has a history of ignoring the command. Why make training harder than it has to be? Also, two weeks is nothing. You need to make a really concentrated effort for at least 8 weeks, and you need to make the recall extremely fun by rewarding with extremely high value treats, but also with toys and games.

Practise it many times per day, until coming on command becomes habit, and practise it in areas where you will be the most interesting thing, such as inside the house. That way, she experiences being right most of the time. Until you've put in the time and effort, the dog shouldn't be off leash at all, and you shouldn't be calling her to you if there are distractions in the environment.

Turn the recall into a fun game. Have another person opposite you and call her back and forth between you. Throw a treat away from you, let her run and get it, then take off running the opposite way as you call her, reward her when she gets to you. Get someone to hold her and rev her up while you run away, when she's trying to break loose to get to you, call her and the other person will then let go, reward her when she catches up. Etc. The recall should be the most fun game ever for the dog. Only when you've put in a proper effort to actually teaching the dog what the recall command means, should you consider applying aversives.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

ModMark said:


> First I do need to buy a couple more pounds of patience for myself, this is week 4 with our 9 month old Golden retriever who was poorly trained by it's original owner.
> 
> I work at home and spend alot of time with her, overall things are going great! I am following the advise of experts (which i am NOT), positive reinforcement training.
> 
> ...


I can sum up the things I would do pretty easily:

- Rip out that invisible fence. I wouldn't come back to you either if at randomly determined times, I suddenly got an electric shock. As far as I'm concerned, they should be illegal.

- Put her right back on leash. Why is she off-leash if she hasn't earned the right to be? Will she come to you in your bathroom? In the hallway in your home? In the living-room? In the kitchen? I would not allow her off leash at all until she has proven to have a rock solid recall all throughout your home.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

ModMark said:


> So the question I have, why is a negative consequence wrong when a dog choice to ignore your command? With a shock collar, give the dog an audio warning or zap of electric then praise her when she she does come.


because you have no reason to use a shock collar. you said she made progress in the past 2 weeks, that means positive methods work great. just keep working on it. keep her on a long leash, until you feel like she is ready. also practice without leash inside the house, in the backyard ... and then move to other areas. i am pretty sure, if you keep training this way, you will be successful! be patient. and having a high value treat, that she ONLY gets for recall, you will see she will associate you with what she wants...that treat!
using a shock collar can go wrong quickly. what if you call her...she doesn't come, you use the shock collar und she thinks "what? he called me and now i get shocked? i better never listen to that "come" word again" (sorry, bad example, but a shock collar is just nothing you should use).


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

By chance did you keep her name from her last home ? We have a dog we adopted at 8 months if you called his name no amount of rewards in the world was going to make him come.. so we changed his name and retrained from scratch which solved the problem.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

Shoul;1251175
I'm not sure how much of this you already knew said:


> And I thank you Shoul for repeating this advice, I am seeking advice from others and been doing what you suggested.
> 
> I DON"T want to use a shock collar and would use extreme care if it came to that. But the invisible fence is working great after 3 days of training, now she has a 320' circle in the back to roam around. She is quite happy to get off the dog run we had set up.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

ModMark said:


> And I thank you Shoul for repeating this advice, I am seeking advice from others and been doing what you suggested.
> 
> I DON"T want to use a shock collar and would use extreme care if it came to that. But the invisible fence is working great after 3 days of training, now she has a 320' circle in the back to roam around. She is quite happy to get off the dog run we had set up.


It's a punishment. No matter what way you try to spin in, you're punishing your dog for something they cannot possibly understand (a barrier they must not pass but cannot see - how fair is THAT?)

Sorry, but you can't use something like that and try to claim that you use positive methods. A positive training would inspire the dog to WANT to stay nearby, not hurt them until they are too scared to go anywhere.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm confused. Are you wanting to shock your dog for NOT coming when called? Just trying to line this out.

If so, why? She's obviously not fully trained, so train her. She's not going to understand being shocked for not coming. All she'll know if her name + come command = ow.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Miss Bugs said:


> I have one dog that I did use a collar for, I got him at 4 years old and NOTHING was more rewarding to him then whatever he was doing if he didnt have a long line on then he knew darn well he could blow me off and there was not a thing I could do about it. Collar solved that in one day 5 years later he still gets a treat everytime he comes when called but I don't care at least he will actually come for a reward now lol. That said I didn't do this till I had had him for a year and all other methods failed. I would keep trying a long line and heavy rewards, you h ave only had him a month give it some more time.


Indeed, you worked with your dog for a year and the e-collar used after other work tried. Then let us not forget your dog is 4 years old not a 9 month old puppy.

Now a 9 month old teenager dog that has a new owner for a month does not have a chance of good recall work. The dog may have had no work in 1st 9 months.

The problem as I see it, because the electric fence worked the OP thinks the e-collar may also work and he/she will have a completely trained dog with very little work/effort on his/her part, just the pressing of a couple buttons and the frying of a dog that is probably not even bonded yet.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Sorry Canyx! I accidentally deleted your post.

OP, what reinforcer are you using to reward 'come'. Perhaps this isn't appetitive enough. And how often to you reward a successful 'come'?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Sorry Canyx! I accidentally deleted your post.
> 
> OP, what reinforcer are you using to reward 'come'. Perhaps this isn't appetitive enough. And how often to you reward a successful 'come'?


You mods and your powertrippin'! 

But no worries. Short summary: OP, if you're dead set on using a shock collar you should find someone to safely teach you how to use it for YOUR dog and YOUR specific problem. I don't think this is something that even pro shock collar people here can advise because we can't see the situation for ourselves, and if used incorrectly it could cause more problems than what it's worth. But the positive methods being recommended have no adverse side effects, if you have it in you to stick it through longer.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

TorachiKatashi said:


> I can sum up the things I would do pretty easily:
> 
> - Rip out that invisible fence. I wouldn't come back to you either if at randomly determined times, I suddenly got an electric shock. As far as I'm concerned, they should be illegal.


A few days ago, she decide to take off running while on her run. Yep, she hit the end of her rope and spun around from the force. I could see the dejection and frustration in her, she just wanted to run.

This morning after a game of fetch, she took off running a full speed around the yard. I could clearly see the joy on her face as she is sprinted past me. I am using a wireless system with a 320' diameter setting.

So I will pass on your advice, keeping a Golden retriever on a 60' run is cruel when I have a far better option.

And with 4 100 year old oaks on my property, the squirrels and chipmunks will now get plenty of exercise.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ModMark said:


> To be clear, I got the dog at 9 months old and I doubt for the first 9 months of her life, she never responded to the command come. So you are correct, this dog has been trained to ignore the command come, I need to correct this behavior.
> 
> For the past two weeks I been using long leasing training on walk thru the woods and down the street, I gotten great results by the way. She no longer pulls on the lease, is starting to heel and will come on command if the lease is attached.
> 
> ...


I got my Doberman at 6months, she hadn't been of of a kennel run since her previous owners got her from the breeder, wasn't house trained and had NO CLUE what a command was. I have NEVER used punishment to train. Using a shock collar to train recall (or any other command) is a HUGE mistake, it could cause fear issues. Others have given you very solid advice on training recall. Id also suggest you invest in the book "Really Reliable Recall"


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

Canyx said:


> You mods and your powertrippin'!
> 
> But no worries. Short summary: OP, if you're dead set on using a shock collar you should find someone to safely teach you how to use it for YOUR dog and YOUR specific problem.


Good morning Canyx

I unsure why you have so much confidence in finding an "expert trainer" locally, they may claim they are experts but as you say, they may cause more harm then good. On the internet you can find experts with proven credentials. 

My neighbor used one of these with a fully equipped male hunting hound. He let the dog freely roam then would zap him when he took off following a scent. 

Poor dog, he only lived for a few years, got hit by a car.

Anyways, just exploring all option and some good news, just got back from the store and patience was on sale today so I did stock up!


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

I second pretty much everyone's opinion. I vote no on the shock collar. Recall takes a lot of time to perfect and even then, it is never perfect. Shock collars are dangerous to use without a professional and even with one they can scar a dog. Apart from the actual training problems that can happen you can have a failure in equipment. The remote could break, the collar could malfunction, you could lose it, etc. When you rely on a piece of equipment for behavior, you are at the mercy of that equipment. I don't like that. I want the dog to learn that I am the reason they should listen. 

Start slow. Use lots of rewards on a long line outside. When they get it, use a different long line that is lighter and thinner so they think they are free. Work on this. Sometimes instead of a vocal cue dogs do better with a whistle cue with a dog whistle or regular whistle. It carries further, is more pronounced, and the cue has very little change in inflection, tone, etc. To do this, blow the whistle and feed 20 high value treats one at a time. Wait 3 minutes. Then do it again. Then stop. Repeat this in 20 minutes. Then, once the dog REALLY wants to hear that whistle, nonchalantly walk in another room and blow the cue. If they come running, 40+ pieces of high value treat one after another. If they don't come, then you know you need to practice more. 

A newer dog who hasn't learned to come can learn to come reliably. My dog was 4 when we adopted her and she liked to bolt after EVERYTHING including that squirrel that was 3 blocks away. So we worked and worked and worked and now have a reliable whistle come and a voice cue. It's easy to use something like a shock collar because it can produce fast results. BUT, you will end up becoming reliant on the equipment or hurting your dog, more than likely. Punishing bad behavior can leave you in a situation where you feel you need to always do that. Eventually you have to increase the intensity of the punishment as the dog becomes used to it. It is a vicious circle, especially if you are new to training. I would stick to positive reinforcement.

It takes longer but I would argue you are in a better situation in the end because the dog has a closer relationship with you and doesn't have a reason to fear making choices. just thought I would throw that out there.


Edit: I wanted to add that I ended up using a shock collar on my dog at first (I was very uninformed about dogs when I got her) and as my interest in training grew I saw the many holes in my training. There was the illusion of recall and an illusion of a well behaved dog but in the end it wasn't a good way to train and left both of us disappointed. I was using a trainer who was very well liked in the community and looking back wasn't a bad trainer, it's just a method that requires so much effort to learn how to use properly that if you do screw up, you have screwed up good and most likely have a dog with some issues. The worst you can do with positive reinforcement is make your dog fat. When I switched to positive reinforcement it was hard and took a lot longer but I have a much more well behaved dog now and I love our relationship. There was a lot of stuff to fix and a lot of stuff I had to do to get her to want to train and try new things, but she is and now she has more freedom than ever. I wanted to mention this as someone who had tried an e-collar and switched.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

Miss Bugs said:


> I have one dog that I did use a collar for, .... Collar solved that in one day


So if you had to do it all over, would you wait a year before using the collar?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

ModMark said:


> Good morning Canyx
> 
> I unsure why you have so much confidence in finding an "expert trainer" locally, they may claim they are experts but as you say, they may cause more harm then good. On the internet you can find experts with proven credentials.
> 
> ...


There are bad trainers but there are also people who use the tool correctly. 
Also, I feel like there must be more to your story... How did your neighbor's trained dog end up being hit by a car?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Och, my apologies I had written something else in my post that was deleted...
My reason for recommending someone to teach you is there CAN be consequences to using the tool incorrectly but this sort of thing is hard to get advice on via the internet because none of us are there to assess your situation in person. Also, as you can see, most people here prefer other methods. It is harmless to recommend positive techniques, but no one here can really tell you what to do in terms of negatives. I think wvasko has said in multiple places that she is an "aversive trainer" at times but would never pass recommendations through the internet to people she does not know (and wvasko, correct me if I'm wrong!). As an example, even if Miss Bugs "would wait one year" before using the tool on her dog, that says absolutely nothing about what you should do for YOUR dog.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

Nil said:


> Apart from the actual training problems that can happen you can have a failure in equipment. The remote could break, the collar could malfunction, you could lose it, etc. When you rely on a piece of equipment for behavior, you are at the mercy of that equipment.


Even before I posted this, I would view shock collars as a very short term device to correct a behavior problem. And by short term I mean try it for few times and see if she responds. 

The permanent use of a shock collar is ridiculous. Even for hunting dog they now have long range GPS system ie: you can located your dog.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

I guess i'm not sure about this post then. If you want to use a remote collar then go for it. Most people here don't like them for various reasons, but it is not our dog. If you were looking for opinions then I think you got them. 

Best advice I can give at this point is find someone who uses it in the right way. Read up on the ways to train dogs, inform yourself.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

I just do not understand why you are looking for another method...you said your dog made grat progress in the past two weeks. So keep training with positive methods and you will see results!


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

Canyx said:


> How did your neighbor's trained dog end up being hit by a car?


He just let this dog roam and he got the scent of hot dogs being cooked in a park across a busy street. 

He seem to think that training a hunting dog will take away it's ability to hunt ie: a good hunting dog needs the freedom to roam.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

But didn't he zap the dog when it followed a scent?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

9 months old and you've had her for a month? Yeah, not exactly time to whip out the shock collar.

It seems you have an odd impression of how dogs think. She "ignores" you, she is joyful to run, etc. Well, yeah, running is fun. So make recall funner. As to "ignoring". she's not thinking "hmm. he said to come and I know what that means, but I think I'll blow him off because f**k him!" It takes at least 300 successful completions of a command for a dog to have learned something, and that number is variable depending upon the dog's biddability, age, etc.

tl;dr? She doesn't know what you want. She needs more practice. 

Besides that, are you even sure she can complete the command? I've realized over the last week that my rescue is deaf in one ear. The vet confirmed it today. (Well, to be absolutely certain what he hears, we'd need a BAER test, but it's not necessary.) You need two ears to place sound (tell where it is in relation to you), that's why everything has two ears and not one big one. If I recall Kabota and he can't see me, he takes off in a random direction until he can see me. For the longest time, I thought he just wasn't getting recall. He was, he just couldn't do it.

So, yeah, no shocking the teenaged, untrained, not yet bonded dog. Just work harder.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ModMark said:


> To be clear, I got the dog at 9 months old and I doubt for the first 9 months of her life, she never responded to the command come. So you are correct, this dog has been trained to ignore the command come, I need to correct this behavior.
> .


If she has been trained to ignore the "come" cue. I would change the word and start over. A great little pamphlet for you to read on teaching the dog a reliable recall in all situations, using positive motivation (and a wee bit of negative punishment) is Really Reliable Recall by Leslie Nelson. It will give you step by step on teaching and proofing your recall.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

As others pointed out... you've only had her for a month, so she's probably not even settled into her new home yet! As someone who also recently adopted a dog with questionable recall... results take time and depend on the amount of work you're able to put in. It took us several weeks of working on recall multiple times a day, every day, to get a half-decent recall out of our dog. I also find that praising him when he starts towards me gets him to move a bit faster, probably because by now he knows "Good boy!" or "Yes!" = Treats.

Another thing you might want to try is something other than a voice command. A whistle or clapping might work better, especially if he's already learned to ignore "come" (as others have mentioned), especially if you're recalling over long distances where your voice might be distorted by distance/wind, or drowned out by other sounds. A sharp sound gets attention better than a drawn out one. Another thing that might help is just be REALLY OVERLY EXCITED. Make it seem like there is something SO AMAZINGLY AWESOME where you are that she's missing out on, when she comes over to see what it is give her an amazing treat. Try doing it with a friend/family member, so you can just send her back and forth (twice the training for half the effort )

Good luck!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ModMark said:


> Understood and agree 100%, when she comes give her praise and a treat then say OK and let her roam some more in the backyard.
> 
> So the question I have, why is a negative consequence wrong when a dog chooses to ignore your command? With a shock collar, give the dog an audio warning or zap of electric then praise her when she she does come.
> ......


 for one thing, you have a puppy who has not been trained on the basics. A month of training for a puppy who doesn't even know you is nothing. Take TIME to get those basics. Many people jump right to punishment because it seems easier than actual training. Start in low distraction environments and graduate to more difficult situations. For those, she can drag a long line. Put a few knots in your end, so you can step on it - not use it for collar pops, or reeling in - just to limit her options. For another thing, praise may not be enough (I'd have a high rate of reinforcement with excellent treats.) If the dog receives an ecollar shock every time you ask for "come" you risk her wanting to avoid coming to you, and make "come" an un-fun response. You poison your cue. Sure she may come because she has to, but wouldn't you rather she come because she wants to? Who wants a robot dog. I can call my dogs off a squirrel or rabbit when they are in pursuit. I didn't practice on rodents, but rather made recalling a habit, so the dog doesn't actually take time to consider their options or wonder what I want. We have practices on thrown toys, with better prizes when they give up that prize.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

As you can guess, most of us don't like to use punishment when training, even in a shock collar.

It sounds like you have significant experience with Goldens and know they are easy to train (see my avatar!). I'm positive that your new dog doesn't understand 'Come' yet, and I think that folks would recommend that you start from the beginning and train her the same way that you'd restrict and train an 8 week old puppy to come, then work from there, resulting in a gentler, more trusting relationship.

Barring that level of patience, I don't see a problem in using the beep in the collar to distract from distractions and turning off the shock. I've seen a Bichon and a Bluetick in my neighborhood who have been trained using a shock collar. After 3 years, the dogs still need a tune-up once in a while, so they still need the collar. I have to admit that their rigid obedience not to go into the street is much more precise than what my dog does. ... But my retriever smiles a lot more!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ModMark said:


> A few days ago, she decide to take off running while on her run. Yep, she hit the end of her rope and spun around from the force. I could see the dejection and frustration in her, she just wanted to run.
> 
> This morning after a game of fetch, she took off running a full speed around the yard. I could clearly see the joy on her face as she is sprinted past me. I am using a wireless system with a 320' diameter setting.
> 
> ...


I hope she is only out in that area supervised. IF doesn't keep anything out, and if your dog is really involved in the chase, she may go through the shock and then not be able to figure out how to get back in the yard without shock. I worked with one dog who was absolutely terrified to go into the yard and panicked when she got near the fence.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Never used a shock collar , seen many others use it, get a great first time response and instead of calling it a day on that high note, they keep going doing it over and over again and the dog learned to ignore the shock and go through the shock all within 20 minutes now the shock collar for all the money they just paid had no value. 

Love the response every one gave I would be on the same line. I got my Corso when she was 5 months old, solid on her training from her breeder. But would she listen to me NO, would she walk on a leash NO how imbarrasing I had to suck it up and choose wisely how I would get her from the parking lot into the vet clinic for that new pup vet check up within 24 hours thing.. I just had to be patient because I do not pull and drag it's not my thing to introduce for my future. Was on Adele's time clock in the beginning not worried . She was just ignoring me and blowing me off I had no value to her and that didn't bother me since it was only a matter of time lol .. I don't waste a command, if I needed Adele I just go get her and we come in together. My main thing is don't set yourself up to fail in what the dog learns from your interactions. Make sure that when you direct something your in the position that it gets done either the dog has learned it to do it on their own, or your right there to step in and do it show them with them because they haven't learned it yet. Dogs remember body position and action to repeat. Those are my main marks to work towards. Adele is awesome and it was quick to build a working relationship with her.. You can do this Goldens are awesome smart dogs and willing team players. Just stay focus on your end goal, be consistant but don't over do it as basic ob is really boreing.. try to play a game while using OB skills as rules, I love doing home made obsticles and teaching OB skills.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ModMark said:


> I unsure why you have so much confidence in finding an "expert trainer" locally, they may claim they are experts but as you say, they may cause more harm then good. On the internet you can find experts with proven credentials.


Point being, on the internet you will get many opinions from people ranging from expert, to average pet owner, to whatever. On this forum we aren't allowed to post links to our website, so there is no way for you to know. As to local trainers - most will let you watch them work, and answer questions. You can ask for credentials. If they won't answer your questions and show credentials, or if they are doing things to dogs that make you uncomfortable (and if you're willing to slap a shock collar on an untrained puppy, I'm not really sure what might make you uncomfortable.) walk away. Just like you would want to see carfax before buying a used car, and might research Consumer reports for performance results, you need to research whom you will choose to help you train your dog. And by seeing the dog they can pick up small clues that it's impossible to do over the internet.


ModMark said:


> Anyways, just exploring all option and some good news, just got back from the store and patience was on sale today so I did stock up!


Patience is always a good thing to stock up on with a puppy.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ModMark said:


> Even before I posted this, I would view shock collars as a very short term device to correct a behavior problem. And by short term I mean try it for few times and see if she responds.
> 
> The permanent use of a shock collar is ridiculous. Even for hunting dog they now have long range GPS system ie: you can located your dog.


Your puppy has been in training for two weeks. You would not be correcting a behavior problem, simply punishing the dog for something she's not yet had the opportunity to learn consistently.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I have one dog that I did use a collar for, .... Collar solved that in one day





> So if you had to do it all over, would you wait a year before using the collar?


I believe dog was worked a year before collar tried.



> I think wvasko has said in multiple places that she is an "aversive trainer" at times but would never pass recommendations through the internet to people she does not know (and wvasko, correct me if I'm wrong!).


You are correct with everything except the "she stuff" I am a male T-Rex


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

wvasko said:


> You are correct with everything except the "she stuff" I am a male T-Rex


Oops, I thought from my first day here that you were female. My bad


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

This is a puppy you have had for a month, who, by your own admission, hadn't been properly trained by her previous owner. So, she is not ignoring the come command because she is being willfully disobedient. She is "ignoring" or not responding, because she hasn't been properly trained yet. There is a difference. So, if I was ever one to use negative consequences, I would not do it in this situation, as she is simply not totally aware of what you want ENOUGH to be able to do it reliably every time.

A month is a drop in the bucket. Recall is hard to train. It takes time and patience and lots and lots of repetition. 
As for the long leash, it is such an important tool for teaching recall. If you have her on a long leash, she will ALWAYS come, either of her own will, or, from you reining in the leash until she's by your side. Either way, you have the ultimate control, and if you say come she will wind up at your side. 

If you don't have her on the long leash, there is the possibility that she won't come when you say come, and, any time you say come and she doesn't come, it is a step backwards, because she starts to learn that coming is an option and she doesn't always have to do it. 

I think you need to keep her on the leash until her recall is better. And, stick with positives.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> This is a puppy you have had for a month, who, by your own admission, hadn't been properly trained by her previous owner. So, she is not ignoring the come command because she is being willfully disobedient. She is "ignoring" or not responding, because she hasn't been properly trained yet. There is a difference. So, if I was ever one to use negative consequences, I would not do it in this situation, as she is simply not totally aware of what you want ENOUGH to be able to do it reliably every time.


Yes indeed if you're gonna use negative the dog has to know what's up. I've said it before using an e-collar on pups is like using elephant gun to hunt fleas. Definitely gonna kill the flea but not gonna be much left.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> As you can guess, most of us don't like to use punishment when training, even in a shock collar.
> 
> It sounds like you have significant experience with Goldens and know they are easy to train (see my avatar!).


Well I did know suggesting a shock collar would get me into the dog house! But nothing wrong with a healthy discussion concerning a training method used by many.

This is my 3rd Golden and I did not have this problem with the first two. My first was never on a lease starting around age 2-3, he heeled amazing well. And give credit to the dog and not the owner.

Now my first two Goldens were males, this is a head strong stubborn female. That may be the problem


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

I wouldn't call her stubborn if she doesn't KNOW what you want. Come may mean "go to owner now" in the bedroom or outside on a leash, but come means nothing when "sniffing in the backyard". Come may mean "go to owner even if I am sniffing poop" but come means nothing when "sniffing squirrel". Dogs are bad at generalizing and recall is a behavior that takes lots of time and consistency. For some dogs you need to be patient and really go over very possible scenario to show her and teach her that come means come at all times.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

Chances are it has nothing to do with her gender. You can't expect her to behave like your other dogs, either. I'm sure you know that she's an individual, that includes the rate at which she learns. She's still learning. If I was teaching a child French, I wouldn't give them a month of lessons and expect them to be fluent, would you? Similar situation: you have to give her enough practice that she can be confident. Dogs WANT to please you. They were bred for 15,000 years in order to work with humans. You just have to supply her with the tools to understand you. An e-collar is not one of these tools. To go back to my language barrier example, it's like shouting in English to someone who doesn't speak it very well; they're not deaf, they just don't understand. Why shock punish her instead of helping her to understand?

A few other people mentioned this, but e-collars can be dangerous. What if she learns that you= shock? Or fetching=shock? Or outside=shock? WE know what we're correcting, but the problem with corrective-based training is that sometimes the dogs don't.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Wow. Gender doesn't have anything to do with this. Dogs are individuals and can't really be compared to other dogs.
It's real simple, just continue to positively work with the dog and you should start to see results. A shock collar likely won't fix this.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

No I would not have used the collar sooner had I known. I do use adversives in training and I am highly critical of all positive however I prefer never to use punishment when training a recall..even in this case it was a by product I got the collar for his barking issue I never had any intention of using it for his bad recall.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Miss Bugs said:


> I am highly critical of all positive



If you withhold a reward, that's negative punishment. You don't have to have a training collar to not be "all positive".


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## Dante (Sep 4, 2007)

There have been plenty of times I thought if I could only use negative reinforcement it'd be so much easier. In the long run it's just not worth it for me. This video albeit a little long has some good tips.

http://www.thedogtrainingsecret.com/blog/river/


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> Wow. Gender doesn't have anything to do with this.


Opps, I see the problem, dragging the smiley didn't work. Time to go old school


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Canyx said:


> Oops, I thought from my first day here that you were female. My bad


Heh, I almost default to everyone being a girl since there's so many womens on the forum 

If I didn't know before hand, I'd probably have done the same thing at some point


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

Dante said:


> This video albeit a little long has some good tips.
> 
> http://www.thedogtrainingsecret.com/blog/river/


Thanks for the link, that is basically what I been doing for the past couple weeks. One trick I been using while walking in the woods, when there is a fork in the trail I let her go one way then tell her to come down the other trial. 

As suggested by other, my next step may be to change commands to 'here' and start over. I think the dog receive alot of physical punishment by the original owners father.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but there is a disconnect between using a shock from an electric fence to mean "stay away" and a shock from a collar to mean "come here"
I am admittedly not a fan of either, but if you are going to use adversives, mixed signals are going to make things much harder.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ModMark said:


> I think the dog receive alot of physical punishment by the original owners father.


If this is the case the shock collar will most certainly make things worse. You need to be sure she gets VERY positive associations with coming to you AT ALL TIMES. Please read the article I'm linking.


Really reliable recall _or_ Fido, PLEASE come home! by Pamela Dennison


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Also there is a big risk here the dog might understand 'Fluffy, Come'....*zap* as getting zapped for failure to come OR he could just as easily associate the shock with you saying his name and calling him. If he thinks you will zap him every time you say his name I think he will be much LESS likely to want direction from you. 

You can still have her offlead to run... just leash up when its time to practice recall.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

I have a golden and I don't think that he would do well with the collar...I don't think that golden's in general would do well. They are soft dogs that generally love to please. Mine will do anything for praise alone, a treat is a bonus. Try a different word then come. Come is a very general term and is used often and usually not for good things....Dogs name...come here..they come and they get medicine, they get nails trimmed..etc. This dog was probably exposed to this and has decided that she doesn't have to come and something not good will happen if she does. Try HERE or FRONT as the command and never tell your dog here or front and do something negative. If you want to trim the nails, brush them, give medicine...you go to them.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I've skimmed through everything but I don't think this has been mentioned.

The people who do use aversives in training and use them correctly and properly, they only introduce them once the dog knows a command. You never use an aversive (other than maybe some pressure in the form of R-) to teach a new behaviour.

Once the dog KNOWS a command, you might consider using an aversive for non-compliance for added reliability. But even that is questionable, because there are dogs trained with aversives who aren't 100% reliable, and dogs trained with reward based methods who are, so one can't say that punishment makes a dog reliable.

Only a really bad or lazy trainer will use an aversive to teach a new behaviour. It might work if you do it correctly (which is why you need to get a trainer to come to your house and show you how it's done), but you will never have a dog who LOVES to come running to you at full speed. The dog will come slowly and grudgingly. So if having a recall fast is the most important thing ever, then sure, get a trainer to come and work with you with an e-collar (I'm a trainer and I would refuse to do this, so I would question any trainer willing to do this). But if you want a strong bond with your dog and a dog who loves to run to you, then you have to put the time and effort into training the dog.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

aiw said:


> Also there is a big risk here the dog might understand 'Fluffy, Come'....*zap* as getting zapped for failure to come OR he could just as easily associate the shock with you saying his name and calling him.


That's most likely what's gonna happen.
If a dog can't understand being spanked for peeing INSIDE, then how are they supposed to understand being shocked for not recalling?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

just a question, have you done focus work with her? When she gives you eye contact is she looking at you or through you? Reason I ask is that my little J had nothing in her first environment, she was a kennel pup to the age of 2 years old. No one ever hurt her, but she lacked the basic puppy skills that an 8wk old pup would of gotten. J was all about J and J's world kennel pups learn to amuse themselves. I needed to stop and kneel down to cup her face to work on eye contact before I talked to her she just never learned how to learn and that humans had something to say or give directions. Just something you said that when she runs loose she is so happy with herself. Met many of people who werent getting real eye contact and were basically just talking to their dogs foreheads and the backs of their heads and not getting through to make progress  just a thought


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> The people who do use aversives in training and use them correctly and properly, they only introduce them once the dog knows a command.
> Once the dog KNOWS a command,


She knows the command come, there is no doubt about that. I have been following the advice given to me concern positive reinforcement for the past few weeks, she has come to me hundreds of times in different situation.

If needed, how I planned on using a shock collar...

In the backyard she will be 50 feet away from me unleashed. I tell her to come and she will stop and make eye contact with me. After a few seconds, she will turn her head and start walking away from me. First give her a sound warning then zap her if needed Two things can happen.

A. She continues to run away from me. If this happen well that didn't work and back to the drawing board...

B. She does come back to me and now I give her lot of praise, a nice little treat and then say OK,let her go sniff about the yard. The dog was caged 8-16 hours/day with her original owner, she need to get out and explore.

I DO NOT underestimate the dangerous situation I am in. We had an equipment failure (she crews thru the rope) one day, she saw a squirrel and off she went. At the edge of some marsh land and woods, she saw 4 deer and off she went in full pursuit. In my mind, she was gone would not find her way back. Luckily she did find her way back but...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

ModMark said:


> She knows the command come, there is no doubt about that. I have been following the advice given to me concern positive reinforcement for the past few weeks, she has come to me hundreds of times in different situation.
> 
> If needed, how I planned on using a shock collar...
> 
> ...


Your plan has flaws in it. You can't use an e-collar without knowing the correct use, you NEED to get a trainer to come to your house and show you how it's done.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> just a question, have you done focus work with her? When she gives you eye contact is she looking at you or through you?


I am an engineer and what an engineer hears concerning "looking at you or through you"..

"Bla bla bla bla bla" (credit to Gary Lawson and the far side)

However I do use lots of eye contact, during punishment hold her by the jowls and looking right into her eyes.

And during those tender moment of affection, eyes drop down and those big puppy eye looking right at me....


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Your plan has flaws in it. You can't use an e-collar without knowing the correct use, you NEED to get a trainer to come to your house and show you how it's done.


You say the plan has flaws yet offer no reason why it is flawed. To be fair, this is the wrong forum on getting information concerning the proper use of shock collars...

Hiring a professional training is not an option. I have 2 kids in college and goggle 'Kodak' and you will understand why I am starting a business in my garage. 

But thanks for your reply..


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> You say the plan has flaws yet offer no reason why it is flawed. To be fair, this is the wrong forum on getting information concerning the proper use of shock collars...


Hmmmmmm! I have done e-collar work through the years on a selected type of dog. The warning of using an e- collar on a pup 9 months old with a brand new owner of 1 month is not a bad thing. 

I try to warn all amateur types about possible problems with e-collar work. The flaws you are asking about sometimes are not seen/experienced until the button is pressed. That being said it's your dog, if you want to fry the dog it's your decision not the forum's.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

luvmyfurballs said:


> I have a golden and I don't think that he would do well with the collar...I don't think that golden's in general would do well. They are soft dogs that generally love to please. Mine will do anything for praise alone, a treat is a bonus.


I agree with you 100% concerning the nature of Goldens, my first one learn how to heel in one day with no treats. But I got him at 7 weeks old, this one is 9 month old. That is why I agree to take this dog, Golden are so easy to train.

I just never encounter this type of behavior from a golden, quite baffled right now.

Right now I am researching and learning about all option, goggle is a wonderful thing....


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

ModMark said:


> You say the plan has flaws yet offer no reason why it is flawed. To be fair, this is the wrong forum on getting information concerning the proper use of shock collars...
> 
> Hiring a professional training is not an option. I have 2 kids in college and goggle 'Kodak' and you will understand why I am starting a business in my garage.
> 
> But thanks for your reply..



I'm not telling you why it's flawed because I'm not going to help you when you're clearly not interested in educating yourself. You came on here asking about reward based training, when clearly you've already made up your mind about what you want to do.

Btw, I'm a professional dog trainer, so you've had an expert opinion, which is what you claimed you wanted.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ModMark said:


> I am an engineer and what an engineer hears concerning "looking at you or through you"..
> 
> "Bla bla bla bla bla" (credit to Gary Lawson and the far side)
> 
> ...


You're giving a negative association for eye contact. 

When she comes to you JACKPOT reward her. The only way to get a RELIABLE recall is to make YOURSELF more rewarding than ANYTHING else.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ModMark said:


> I agree with you 100% concerning the nature of Goldens, my first one learn how to heel in one day with no treats. *But I got him at 7 weeks old*, *this one is 9 month old*. That is why I agree to take this dog, Golden are so easy to train.
> 
> I just never encounter this type of behavior from a golden, quite baffled right now.
> 
> Right now I am researching and learning about all option, goggle is a wonderful thing....


Therin lies the difference, you ESTABLISHED a relationshio with the first one, you haven't done that with this dog, you've only had her a month. At 9 moths she's going through hte 'teenager' stage anyhhow and testing her limits, add to this that she hasn't been trained by her first owner. You need to lay the foundation work, no off leash in open areas until then. 

Again, Pam Dennisons Recall training READ IT!!!!!!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

It really seems like OP is dead set on wanting to use the shock collar despite all this advice not to and is looking for any reason to use it.
I don't understand the point of asking for advice you don't really want.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> It really seems like OP is dead set on wanting to use the shock collar despite all this advice not to and is looking for any reason to use it.
> I don't understand the point of asking for advice you don't really want.


Seems to happen a lot though. Ob this forum, but also in life in general.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

cshellenberger said:


> Again, Pam Dennisons Recall training READ IT!!!!!!


I did yesterday, thanks for the link. I am an early riser and been reading anything I can find concerning my situation. 

Ms. Dennison did offer a different perspective, the vast majority of articles are quite similiar.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> It really seems like OP is dead set on wanting to use the shock collar despite all this advice not to and is looking for any reason to use it.
> I don't understand the point of asking for advice you don't really want.


Nope, that is not true. I have no clue if I am going a shock collar.

I was looking for knowledge concerning the use of shock collars, why is learning about different training method such a bad thing? Regardless if I going to use one, I really would like to understand the proper use of these collars.

Now if you want to know what my next step is, I am going to spend some time with my neighbor this weekend. She had similar problem with one of her dogs. 

But once again, I am in a very dangerous situation with this dog. Once the mating season ends, the deer will be a daily sight in my backyard. One slip and she could be miles away from the house in full pursuit. The probability of losing this dog is quite high right now.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yes, losing your unrestrained dog is a real threat. But using aversives (shock collar or otherwise) is not going to magically make her reliable on recall. Sometimes using aversives can totally ruin a dog's recall (who wants to come to someone who hurts them?). So "being in a dangerous situation" doesn't really have any bearing on using a shock collar or not.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

ModMark said:


> I am an engineer and what an engineer hears concerning "looking at you or through you"..
> 
> "Bla bla bla bla bla" (credit to Gary Lawson and the far side)
> 
> ...


it was ment if she is really paying attention to you directly or looking in your direction but paying attention to everything beyond you. I agree in your situation after having multiple successes with your other goldens you want that same feeling of response from this one, that smoothl flow . It is visually awkward when you see an almost grown dog, with still a puppy mind and the rough edge in behavior. There is a normal expectation that their behavior maturity should match their size and that it looks and feels a certain way. You would feel and act differently if you had a small 8wk old pup to look at in front of you , you would give that small pup much more consideration towards what they need to learn and even find some of their mischiveious behavior funny.

1 month is not enough time, and you always have to consider and stop to choose wisely about how your actions affect the dogs long term. Is this going to bring the dog to me, or is it going to push the dog away from me. When I said I knelt down to talk to J, is was never to punish her. I needed to draw J out of her little world and into mine if we were going to be able to move forward to even start doing training. Training is a two way street, I can't do it by myself need a willing participating partner. 
You've done this before and done it successfully with a great relationship of your previous goldens, no reason you can't step back not feel so rushed and do it with this pup.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If two pro trainers -- one of whom has used e-collars in his 50 years of training -- told me not to try an e-collar without consulting a pro, I wouldn't try an e-collar without consulting a pro. If for some reason I decided to ignore their advice and try it anyway, I would not jump straight to a shock; I'd try the "tone" option on the collar first and see if the noise broke the dog's focus on whatever was more important than me.

Like others have said, your dog is young and in the teenager stage (most dogs are little jerks at this stage; I say that with affection), and you've only had her a month. It takes longer than that for most dogs to bond with their owners and start wanting to please them. Even my AKK, who I got as a nine-week-old puppy, didn't actually want to please me until he was nearly a year old.

Could an e-collar work? Maybe. But there's also a good possibility that the dog would be confused (because the zap from the perimeter fence means "back away!" while a zap from you would mean "come"), or that the dog would be afraid and not want to come to you. Like Carla said, you have also turned eye contact into a bad thing by grabbing her face/staring into her eyes when "punishing" her, so that could contribute to her not wanting to come to you.

(Eye contact is the very first thing I teach all of my dogs -- I use a method similar to this one. I WANT them to sit and stare directly into my face when they want something. I find that this helps with creating a bond, AND it helps with attention and focus. If I say my dogs' names, they snap their heads around to stare right into my eyes and see what I want. And if they come and sit by me and stare at me, I know they're trying to communicate something to me -- in this photo, Casper was silently telling me it was dinnertime.)


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ModMark said:


> She knows the command come, there is no doubt about that. I have been following the advice given to me concern positive reinforcement for the past few weeks, she has come to me hundreds of times in different situation.
> 
> If needed, how I planned on using a shock collar...
> 
> ...


Third thing that can happen: you punish her for acknowledging you and you poison your cue. I would suggest that if she reallty KNEW the cue to come, and reinforcement is great enough, she'd be doing it.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Miss Bugs said:


> No I would not have used the collar sooner had I known. I do use adversives in training and I am highly critical of all positive however I prefer never to use punishment when training a recall..even in this case it was a by product I got the collar for his barking issue I never had any intention of using it for his bad recall.


Can you name the trainers who are "all positive"? Personally, I don't know any. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/988


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Can you name the trainers who are "all positive"? Personally, I don't know any. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/988


Great link and it's why I hate these labels.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ModMark said:


> I am an engineer and what an engineer hears concerning "looking at you or through you"..
> 
> "Bla bla bla bla bla" (credit to Gary Lawson and the far side)
> 
> ...


What does being an engineer have to do with the dog giving you eye contact? What is so "blah blah blah" about "is the dog looking at you?" Is she or isn't she? How is that eye contact maintained? Have you worked on duration of eye contact? Have you proofed in various situations? Is your "look at me" cue strongly conditioned to where it can overcome other stimuli?

The eye contact you described is not what's being talked about. You're forcing eye contact. What about the contact offered to you by your dog? Are you capturing it and rewarding it, and then repeating it constantly to build up the habit/conditioning of it to where it's just about a reflex? 

That's what's being talked about.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ModMark said:


> In the backyard she will be 50 feet away from me unleashed. I tell her to come and she will stop and make eye contact with me. After a few seconds, she will turn her head and start walking away from me. First give her a sound warning then zap her if needed Two things can happen.
> 
> A. She continues to run away from me. If this happen well that didn't work and back to the drawing board...
> 
> B. She does come back to me and now I give her lot of praise, a nice little treat and then say OK,let her go sniff about the yard. The dog was caged 8-16 hours/day with her original owner, she need to get out and explore.


Why not just give her a stay cue? Then call her again? You have taught her stay, considering the circumstances, yes? 

If your recall doesn't overcome whatever is pulling her away, you need more work on recall in less distracting conditions. Dogs learn in context, and being a different distance from you IS a chance in context, not to mention the change in the sound the dog hears - might not get picked up as being the same cue, depending on how "picky" the dog is in interpreting sounds (i.e. does the dog consider even a slight difference as a different sound or is the dog more "tolerant" of differences in sound, especially once the cue is well-practiced - a sort of "I knew what you meant" thing).


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

What would get a golden to move forward that is the question? as that is the first step in a recall,, dog move forward with excitment and speed as a goal... a game of chase after me and when you catch me there's a ball throw or tugowar game with me, or a game of ball thrown behind you doesn't matter if the dog runs past you to get the ball in the beginning. just get the movement with motion with excitment and speed.. where's the value of doing it


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

You've gotten lots of great advice, some of it was from professional trainers with vast experience. This thread is long, and some of the advice is worth repeating.

Here's what I, in my own personal opinion, find most important:

* This is a 9 month old dog. If someone was going to use a shock collar, it should be on a dog that was a bit older.
* This is a dog you've had for a month. You don't have much of a relationship yet. You may seriously damage what relationship you've managed to get so far, or a future relationship.

You say she's performed this command successfully hundreds of times. Good. But, she's 9 months old. That's a teenager, in dog development stages. So, not only do you have a dog that isn't bonded to you yet, and likely doesn't feel totally settled in yet, you also have a pup going through teenage rebellion.

Many people who have had their dogs since 8 weeks old or so also go through this teenage rebellion. What I'm saying is, most of us have had teenage pups who "selectively" choose what to listen to. YOU have TWO situations at the same time, a new dog who isn't bonded to you and settled in, so doesn't totally respond yet AND a dog that is a teenager. 

It's not that she is saying "f-you, I don't want to listen because I am a bad dog." She is new to you, AND going through her teenage butthead time. 

If it were me, I would continue to work on recall as you are doing, and UNTIL she is 100%, I would not let her outside unless she was on the long leash, so that she doesn't run off. If this is your forever dog, there is time on your side, that as you continue to work with her, you will get her to 100% without damaging your relationship with her. And, there is a safe way to have her outside without allowing her to run off. It's NOT forever, it's until you get this.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> However I do use lots of eye contact, during punishment hold her by the jowls and looking right into her eyes.


When you do that you teach her that looking into your eyes is scary and bad and that she shouldn't do it. This is going to make it harder for you to train her to focus on you (in essence, its part of the problem with recall).


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Problems I see here:
- Zap from the fence means 'stay away' but the zap from you is supposed to mean 'come closer'
- You will call her name and zap her, she may learn that commands from you are painful and scary
- If it is such a real possibility she will run away (and yes with wildlife even the best trained dogs sometimes ignore) then why ON EARTH are you leaving her unleashed in an unfenced area. She has already run off once, a shock collar won't stop her from doing it again, if she runs through the shock of the fence what makes you think she will stop for the collar?

Get a longer leash (maybe 100') and don't let her off unless she is in an enclosed, safe space. This is your responsibility and if she runs off it will be your failure, not her fault.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

aiw said:


> Problems I see here:
> - Zap from the fence means 'stay away' but the zap from you is supposed to mean 'come closer'
> - You will call her name and zap her, she may learn that commands from you are painful and scary
> - If it is such a real possibility she will run away *(and yes with wildlife even the best trained dogs sometimes ignore)* then why ON EARTH are you leaving her unleashed in an unfenced area. She has already run off once, a shock collar won't stop her from doing it again, if she runs through the shock of the fence what makes you think she will stop for the collar?
> ...


Not sure OP even comes close to understanding prey drive just as he does not understand possible damage to a young pup.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Yeah... OP seems pretty set in his choice. I think at best it won't work and at worst it could damage the dog, but of course not my dog, not my choice. I think I'll bow out and save myself the frustration.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yes let's say for conversation sake it works for the recall. It will do nothing for a recall on a dog that is chasing a deer. I am gonna do the bow out thing too.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ModMark said:


> You say the plan has flaws yet offer no reason why it is flawed. To be fair, this is the wrong forum on getting information concerning the proper use of shock collars...
> 
> Hiring a professional training is not an option. I have 2 kids in college and goggle 'Kodak' and you will understand why I am starting a business in my garage.
> 
> But thanks for your reply..


Even the people who DO use shock collars are telling you that using a shock collar on a 9 month old puppy with two weeks of training and probably 8 months of no training is NOT a good idea.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Yes let's say for conversation sake it works for the recall. It will do nothing for a recall on a dog that is chasing a deer. I am gonna do the bow out thing too.


*gets on Wvasko's back and rides him out*

Rapido, dinosaur, there's some fresh meat (or veggies in case you're one of them there plant eatin' lizards) in it for you *gets clicker out*

XD


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## savvy (Nov 6, 2012)

I used an E collar and I would not recommend it for just anyone or any dog, it can easily ruin a dog if you are not careful.

When I first used the E collar I had no options left, my dog was barking all day long and all night long, he probably got 3 hours of rest every day and took 10 minutes eating, the rest of the time it was constant barking, our neighbors dog did the same thing, couldn't shut one up unless you could shut the other one up, both me and my neighbor would try and try to get our dogs to stop barking and it was useless because the only thing they wanted to do was bark senselessly at eachother! So I started using it very quickly without getting him used to the feel of it, so he was quite aware that the orange plasticy collar with the black poky things on it wasn't fun. So he became fearful of it, and this was really hard for me because I didn't want to become one of those people who uses force for everything, but when he wanted something he couldn't care less about my attempts to calm him down and even treats were starting to become less and less of a distraction. When I used it he would stop barking, but he started to become a little distant with me (I didn't use a setting I couldn't handle, the norm was 2 and when he was really distracted I would use 3) and became less and less comfortable with me handling him. So I stopped using it and slowly he started to become more comfortable with me touching him and now responds much better to my commands and his come is really good!

This happened with a very stubborn dog, very much the opposite of timid, and Goldens can be very soft and sensitive, so you really need to be very careful!!!

And the problem with the invisible fence is that dogs can become very jumpy and fearful because they never know when this random pain is going to come, and they can start to blame it on the objects they are near to when it happens, like a garbage can or the mailbox, or she could start to blame it on you. I would stop using the invisible fence right away!

And if you intend to use an E collar I would really suggest seeking advice from a professional, Schutzhund trainers are very experienced with these tools, but you will need to find someone who has a lot of experience with pets aswel because some can start to think all dogs can handle those rough techniques and don't realize they are dealing with dogs that are bred to attack.

I have seen some GOOD dogs ruined with this tool, one guy I knew used it for every little thing his dog did wrong, and this dog was SO willing to please and his owner never had any one on one training with just a bag of treats, he was never given the chance to learn any commands or learn how to be good without being shocked, and his owner was SO lucky this dog could handle it because if the dog was aggressive he would have definitely attacked someone, and if he was timid his temperament would have been irreparable.

I don't believe in pain punishments, I will flick my dog on the nose or slap his rear to startle him, but if you are hurting your dog you should reconsider owning a dog! But I do believe in taking away your dogs happiness! Not quite like that, but if you take away a dogs toys or lock her in her kennel and connect that to a bad behavior and make her realize she can have her toys back and her freedom if she behaves it can be really effective! And you can also try a spray bottle or Bitter Apple in the mouth (to stop barking, didn't work for my dog because I couldn't catch him!) as a less forceful way to punish you dog.

Dogs are individuals, different tactics work on different dogs! Some need a firm owners and others just need to be shown what the right thing to do is!


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

savvy said:


> When I first used the E collar I had no options left, ...
> And if you intend to use an E collar I would really suggest seeking advice from a professional,


Same as you, I view the e-collar as my "Plan B". I don't think I will need to use one but I do want a plan B. And I am seeking 'expert' advice on e-collar, that is why I posted this question on this forum. And there is a difference between professional and expert., charging a fee does not make one an expert. 

Not once did I ever assume an e-collar can be use for recall, that was not my intent. Based on much reading, the dog was taught that the command come is optional. It is the optional behavior I need to correct.

This is similar to long leash training, when a dog chooses to ignore us, we reel them in on a rope. And there is nothing positive about being pulled on a rope. 

Long term, I have to use a invisible fence. A neighbor two houses down is constantly feeding the wildlife with leftover food ie: bread, moldy cheese, table scraps. The only other option long term, a 60' dog run and constantly getting tangled in trees.

Using invisible fence now is open for debate. This dog was caged 10-20 hours every day, she needs to play, explore and run. She need to learn with her new owner, she get play, explore and run all you want. No need to escape. I did not use the fence yesterday, it was a long lease training day and she never got close to the border.

And thanks for your post. And by the way, not once in 23 years of owning goldens have I used physical pain for punishments. That is ridiculous for goldens, they are soooo sweet and gentle.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

ModMark said:


> Same as you, I view the e-collar as my "Plan B". I don't think I will need to use one but I do want a plan B. And I am seeking 'expert' advice on e-collar, that is why I posted this question on this forum. And there is a difference between professional and expert., charging a fee does not make one an expert.


Who would you consider an expert then? Most of the people on the forum are pet dog owners, like you. If you don't consider trainers experts, then pet dog owners certainly aren't, and this is the wrong place to ask for advice.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Who would you consider an expert then?


Good question, hunting forums may be my next search. Now of course I have a neighbor who is a big time hunter. He used a e-collar on two hunting dogs, both were killed on a busy road. My next door neighbor uses an e-collar, the dog has zero recall! He gets loose and it is a 2 hour venture tacking the dog down. I pass on them 

And in defense of the dog owners in this forum, I think many of you are experts. Clearly the training method I use for my first two goldens was not going to work with my new arrival. I am using the advice from this forum and getting positive results.

And I appreciated the help. 

Well the the 8 deer in my neighbor feeding station have scattered, time for some long lease training this morning.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

I still do not understand why you are even looking for a plan B???? from what you told us, there seems to be no real issue?! you trained her and it gets better...all she needs is more time and training...and more time in her new home...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

ModMark said:


> Good question, hunting forums may be my next search. Now of course I have a neighbor who is a big time hunter. He used a e-collar on two hunting dogs, both were killed on a busy road. My next door neighbor uses an e-collar, the dog has zero recall! He gets loose and it is a 2 hour venture tacking the dog down. I pass on them
> 
> And in defense of the dog owners in this forum, I think many of you are experts. Clearly the training method I use for my first two goldens was not going to work with my new arrival. I am using the advice from this forum and getting positive results.
> 
> ...


Sorry, had to jump back on, with 8 AKC Field Champions, a couple National Placements, 1 National Field Champion, a Regional Field Champion and Runner up (same trial), 1 field futurity placement and 1 Field Futurity Winner I believe I may have just a little hunting dog experience. The above work accomplished in 14 yrs and during that work did indeed fry some dogs with an e-collar. *I'm still sayin it's not necessary to fry a 9 month old pup.*


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

wvasko said:


> *I'm still sayin it's not necessary to fry a 9 month old pup.*


Agreed. Unfortunately this discussion concerning e-collars did not advance to the point of what age should the dog be before using one. You are assuming I am going to fry my 9 month old golden.

I still at the prelim stage of can this device be effectively used to correct bad behavior.

Any information concerning e-collars would be greatly appreciated..

By the way, my dog got to go swimming this morning, unleashed! Next up, go watch a cross country meet in the park. Time for some exposure to larger crowds.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Can you name the trainers who are "all positive"? Personally, I don't know any. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/988


This is a fantastic article!
In the paragraph talking about various forms of negatives that trainers may or may not use, what does this phrase mean: *Some use some of the above in real life but not in training.* I don't understand where the separation between 'real life' and 'training' is.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

To the OP--

We have a very different approach to bonding and training, although I think we both want the same result and both value the dog intensely... So here are my thoughts, which of course you are free to take/leave/ignore...

I have taken in about 50 fosters and have adopted 6 dogs, all out of bad situations. When I get a new dog, I want that new dog to pair all of the very best things in life with me. This might seem "mean" or "controlling" but I have found that the more the dog likes being with me and associates great things happening with me being around, the easier the real training happens. Therefore, I am a part of all things wonderful. 

Because of this, in the first few months, all of my dog's freedom happens on a long line. I get out there and walk and explore and play with the dog. To begin with, for recall training, I wait until the dog is relaxed and not focused away from me on the long line. That's when I call him. When he comes, he get rewarded and sent back out to play immediately. I keep it easy. That way, the dog learns that coming when called means a great treat and more freedom. There's no reason NOT to come. I do this for months. Literally, months. If the dog doesn't come, it means I have picked a poor time to call and have not built in enough fun and positive recalls. I DO use the line to bring the dog in to me then, but I will have learned that my dog needs more proofing. If a dog isn't 1000% perfect on a long line, there is no hope for an off-lead recall. Recall training takes months and months with an older dog. Puppies are quick and easy until they hit adolescence. 

My new dogs get a ton of exercise, but it's all with me. I want my dogs to see me as the gateway to all great things. It charges our relationship. Later, I will let them self-reward and find the joys of exploring with freedom, but in my home, this happens after we have a deepened and dependable relationship. Takes a long time. Hanging out with the long line keeps me really relevant to the dog in the bonding stages.

Oh, and when I decide to test my off-lead recall work with my dogs, I do it in fenced areas and horsebarns. A failure on their part means going back to the long line. It means that I hadn't built the behavior stongly enough and it needs more work.

I understand the desire to let the dog run, but for me, I would leverage the positive joy of exploring. I would want the dog to associate it very, very strongly with being with me. Recall work, if done well, takes a lot of time.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well maybe this is going to fall on deaf ears but rather than thinking of recall in terms of "what is the consequence of _not coming_ when called" I like to think of it in terms of "what can I do to make sure my dog _wants_ to come when called?" That is, why on earth would the dog want to leave what it is doing and come to me? It's a much different mindset than "a dog should do what I say because I said so" (which I'm not saying you have, necessarily, but is the usual objection I get to my approach). This is the method I used to teach Squash recall: 

First, rule #1 is that I strive to make every single time my dog comes to me a positive experience in some way. Obviously in the real world it isn't actually possible. But I do my best. That includes when we're just hanging around the house or yard, not only when we're actively training. If I'm sitting on the couch and one of the dogs wanders over, as long as they aren't being a nuisance (eg no pawing, barking, or other demanding behaviors) they get jolly talk and lovin'. That means I have to be aware of what they are doing. A trainer I like very much uses the phrase "bust your dog for being good" for stuff like this - that is, pay attention to their behavior even when you're not actively training and reward things the dog does spontaneously that you want them to do. Give them a reason to do it again.

Second, unlike many other people I personally do not like to use a long leash to reel dogs in for practicing recall. I feel like it is unpleasant and contradicts the above. If I'm not confident about their recall I will walk them on a long leash, but I don't like using it to enforce a recall. Having said that, many people use the method quite successfully. It's just not my cup of tea.

Third, at first I don't use a leash or any words or even actively try to get a dog to come to me. I just hang out in the yard and house and mark/reward every time they orient to me - whether it's actually coming to me or just looking in my direction. At first, whether it's on purpose or they just happen to turn in my direction in the course of doing something else. Later, only when it's intentional. And even later, only when they actually come over to me. I find that this results also reinforces a tendency to "check in" frequently which comes in handy off leash.

Fourth, when I start putting a cue to the behavior, I start on a short leash - 6' at most. Recalling 6' may seem dumb, but it's much easier to get their attention when they are really close and practicing close lays the foundation for recalling at a distance. They're already used to orienting to me and coming to me at that point, but I also make it a fun game - "Squashies, come!" and jog backwards, maintaining a lot of happy talk when he follows. Gradually increase the distance. 

Fifth, I don't even use the command if they're obviously not going to recall... too distracted or whatever. I just go and get them instead. And I don't repeat over and over if they don't recall after one or two calls - I just go and get them. And I never, ever, EVER recall angry. Learn to act, so frustration doesn't show.

Sixth, I practice a LOT of "recall and release" - recall, praise/reward, then just let them go back to what they are doing. In the house, in the yard, wherever. Most of the time, the fun should NOT end just because they recalled. 

Now Squash is a natural orbiter, so he's been easier to teach recall than some other dogs (*cough*Maisy*cough*). Also, because of mushing we have practiced a LOT of leave it/on by type of stuff and so he's accustomed to not being able to run off after every little thing he wants to. Having said that, he has a really excellent recall... I have recalled him off of wildlife and out of play with other dogs easily and cheerfully. He's had some really spectacular failures, most recently when we did the CAT (coursing ability test) on the second day he was SO tired and overstimulated that his mind went away after his run, so I had to go get him. No dog is perfect. NOT EVEN MINE.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Canyx said:


> This is a fantastic article!
> In the paragraph talking about various forms of negatives that trainers may or may not use, what does this phrase mean: *Some use some of the above in real life but not in training.* I don't understand where the separation between 'real life' and 'training' is.


My understanding: Training = formal training sessions. Like my shaping sessions with Wally or when we do whistle recall, all we do is me going some ungodly distance away and signalling to him. 

Real life = using it in everyday practice - like telling him to sit. We're not "training sit" because it's learned already and I'm asking him to do it for whatever reason, if only to stop him from roaming around momentarily (like I need to get by with something big and don't want to trip on him because I can't see him). I'm not "formally training" "walking by with something big" but it happened in the course of the day. Same for if I ask him to open the door for me - it's not practice, I need him to open the door. We're not shaping it or playing the "let's open and close the door 100 times!" game.

I agree you're always teaching something, but you may not always be formally training.

So the thrust of the phrase to me is:

"Some things I'll do once a behavior is learned and needed in some application, and some things I won't do if the dog is just trying to form an understanding of the behavior or is in process of proofing/mastering the behavior."

Personal example: I will redirect/correct/whatever you want to call it Wally if he doesn't do something I ask him to do and I know he can do it in that situation. I won't do any of it if I'm trying to shape a behavior from nothing and he's trying various things to try to solve the problem or figure out what I'm wanting. For example, if he doesn't get on his scale because he wants to do something else, I'll redirect him to the scale, and restate the instruction. When I was shaping the behavior, I didn't do any of that while he was trying to figure out a) what is this thing? b) what am I supposed to do with it? and c) how do I do it? during our shaping sessions.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Another meaning could be competition training versus everyday member of the family training.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

KBLover said:


> Why not just give her a stay cue? Then call her again? You have taught her stay, considering the circumstances, yes?


I promise I was going to let this thread die but I wanted to thank you for that tip, I am going to try that.

FYI, I think the issue with this dog, she receive alot of physical abuse from her original owners. After a month of highly positive environment, she still wakes up with this look of fear with me. Only time will resolve that issue.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

This dog was physically abused and is fearful, and yet you're still considering using an e-collar? At least you're willing to keep trying positive techniques for now, and I do commend you for that. I hope you never feel like you "need" to use the collar.

Also, if nothing else, please stop making eye contact a bad thing for this dog. Actually, please stop "punishing" her at all; redirect her instead and praise her for doing the good thing instead of the "bad" thing. Punishment is just going to make a fearful dog worse. You want to strengthen your bond, not undermine it. That will help with recall, too. Would YOU want to run to someone you feared?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

The other thing I have to say is this: If her recall is that poor, don't let her off leash right now. Yes, it's a pain. But if you KNOW that she doesn't have a good recall and that she has previous negative training experiences, then what is the point of allowing her off leash right now? It just lets her practice not recalling and frustrates you. Train the recall first.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ModMark said:


> FYI, I think the issue with this dog, she receive alot of physical abuse from her original owners. After a month of highly positive environment, she still wakes up with this look of fear with me. Only time will resolve that issue.


Time and offense.

Meaning - attack the problem. If you know she still is fearful - attack the fear with counter conditioning. You'll still need to take time, but you can speed up the process. Even something as simple as saying her name, and giving a treat. Or every time you wake her up, give her a treat. When she sees you, give her treat. There's all kinds of ways to play offense against fear instead of just waiting it out. I know, Wally was a very fearful dog who may or may not have been abused, but given how neglected he was, I wouldn't be surprised.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> I think the issue with this dog, she receive alot of physical abuse from her original owners. After a month of highly positive environment, she still wakes up with this look of fear with me. Only time will resolve that issue.


I had to jump back on after reading this. Please, please, please don't use a shock collar on a dog who has been physically abused and is fearful. You need to show her that unlike her other owner you are gentle and kind and someone she will want to come bounding home to. That may be part of her problem, its possible she learned that training = pain and that coming within arms reach is dangerous. Time AND gentle handling will build her confidence and your bond. Try anything on youtube by kikopup, its been great for building confidence in my insecure dog.


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## savvy (Nov 6, 2012)

ModMark said:


> Same as you, I view the e-collar as my "Plan B". I don't think I will need to use one but I do want a plan B. And I am seeking 'expert' advice on e-collar, that is why I posted this question on this forum. And there is a difference between professional and expert., charging a fee does not make one an expert.


Does that mean you are unwilling to spend the money it takes to get professional help?

Expert is a very abused word that many people use because they have done some research, but those who have really done research know that they are not qualified to say half of what they say. Usually a professional has real education and licenses for what they do and do it well. and anyone with half a brain knows better than to question a professional even if they don't agree with them. If you haven't yet talked to anyone like that then you haven't really been seeking advice. And besides that none of us actually know your dog so we can't accurately give you advise!

Please stop seeking advice from pet owners and contact someone qualified, a PROFESSIONAL.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

savvy said:


> Please stop seeking advice from pet owners and contact someone qualified, a PROFESSIONAL.


The OP has, in fact gotten the opinions of at least three Professionals right here on this board, two are trainers the third is a Veterinarian.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

cshellenberger said:


> The OP has, in fact gotten the opinions of at least three Professionals right here on this board, two are trainers the third is a Veterinarian.


The only problem I have with this is there is only so much you can learn about a dog from the internet.
There's so much in dog language that people can't read or misread that it's better to call a professional that can actually be there and observe.

I've gotten tons of calls where the owner tells me, "my dog is vicious and crazy" and it turns out the dog is only play nipping.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

EdDTS said:


> The only problem I have with this is there is only so much you can learn about a dog from the internet.
> There's so much in dog language that people can't read or misread that it's better to call a professional that can actually be there and observe.
> 
> I've gotten tons of calls where the owner tells me, "my dog is vicious and crazy" and it turns out the dog is only play nipping.


That's true, but it's pretty easy to determine that a 9 month old dog that has possibly been abused and has only been in the house for a month should NOT have a shock collar used on it. Then again, common sense isn't that common is it?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

EdDTS said:


> The only problem I have with this is there is only so much you can learn about a dog from the internet.
> There's so much in dog language that people can't read or misread that it's better to call a professional that can actually be there and observe.
> 
> I've gotten tons of calls where the owner tells me, "my dog is vicious and crazy" and it turns out the dog is only play nipping.



Well I think the OP is probably capable of determining whether the dog is coming when called or not. :/


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