# How well do GSD pups do in cold weather outside?



## Mike778 (May 22, 2009)

So I've finally decided to get a GSD pup and if all things go smoothly, I'll be picking her up within the next few days. Anyways, we plan on keeping the dog outside, however winters can get quite cold where I live being winter here. (Average temps are 6 degrees C at night and 14 C during the day). 

Is this too cold to keep an 8 week old pup outside? We will buy a decent sized kennel for the pup as shelter of course. Thanks in advance.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

No 8 week puppy should be left outside in the cold OR heat... At that age they are less able to regulate their body temperatures. Besides this, leaving a pup unattended anywhere allows him to get into all kinds of dangerous situations including theft, poisoning, escape etc.

To say nothing of the disastrous effects it would have on the dog's mental health. 

I strongly suggest you reconsider this decision.


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## Mike778 (May 22, 2009)

rosemaryninja said:


> No 8 week puppy should be left outside in the cold OR heat... At that age they are less able to regulate their body temperatures. Besides this, leaving a pup unattended anywhere allows him to get into all kinds of dangerous situations including theft, poisoning, escape etc.
> 
> To say nothing of the disastrous effects it would have on the dog's mental health.
> 
> I strongly suggest you reconsider this decision.


Duly noted. How old would you say the dog would need to be before they can be safely left outside?


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I think you can leave an 8 week old outside in a safely secured yard for a few minutes at a time- maybe even an hour or two IF you have no nearby neighbors. 

if you mean live outside? Pretty much never. GSDs are super-social with THEIR people and unless their 'outside living situation' is something like a kennel rather than a crate in the house and they work all day with people? It's just not fair to the dog.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

If you are speaking of the dog going outside for pottying and playing in the cold, the dog will be fine but I have a feeling you're referring to leaving the dog outside either all the time or while you're at work. In a word, WRONG.
If you can't leave the dog inside when you work or you plan to have the dog outside all the time, get a stuffed animal.


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## Mike778 (May 22, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> I think you can leave an 8 week old outside in a safely secured yard for a few minutes at a time- maybe even an hour or two IF you have no nearby neighbors.
> 
> if you mean live outside? Pretty much never. GSDs are super-social with THEIR people and unless their 'outside living situation' is something like a kennel rather than a crate in the house and they work all day with people? It's just not fair to the dog.


I see. So the GSD is best suited indoors then... No big dramas. Will have to spend a whole day re-organising the house though. A lot of stuff lying on the ground that's going to be potential hazards to the pup. Thanks for your advice guys. I apologise if my questions seemed stupid, I have zero experience and I just want to get everything right before the pup comes home and make minimal idiotic mistakes around the puppy. Thanks guys


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm not responding to anyone in particular here but we once had neighbors that had the best set up for their two dogs. They had a heated garage that was blocked off with kenneling so the dogs could use half the garage...they had a doggie door in the garage going out into a good sized kennel. It was the best of both worlds, the dogs were warm in the winter but had access to the outside.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I wouldn't leave any dog outside in 3 degree weather, well maybe if I lived in Alaska and had a team of sled dogs... Some type of warmer shelter would do though.

I have no problem leaving a dog outside while I go to work, some prefer it. Certainly less boring than being cooped up in a house all day alone. But not without adequate shelter from the weather and good fencing.

I have a GSD, not a puppy though, she stays inside but I may start leaving her out at some point I think she might be happier outside when I'm at work, I have a fairly large fenced yard though, with a large back patio that has a roof and screened walls for shade (gets real hot here) and a pool. If I had a dog door I think she would stay outside all day by choice.

When I'm home is a different story, a GSD will want to be where you are, all the time, think velcro dog.. At least with mine it would be cruel to make her stay outside when I am home.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Mike778 said:


> Duly noted. How old would you say the dog would need to be before they can be safely left outside?


When the dog is 27 years old, she/he can be left outdoors all the time. 

Seriously.. this is a social breed of dog. You need to crate train (to help withhouse breaking) and train and socilaize your dog. This means going to puppy classes and at least Obedience 1 so you have a well behaved dog. It means taking the dog with you places so she/he gets used to all sorts of things and is not afraid. 

It means regularly taking your dog to the vet for shots and worming (don't forget to bring the stool sample for testing). 

They need to be mentally stimulated (you can teach this breed anything) and they need exercise.. lots of it. I walk mine 3-4 miles a day. 

Don't let your dog grow up and get fat. My vet told me for every 5 pounds extra this breed carries, you shorten the dog's life by 6 months.

A couple of books you should get:
"Complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training" (Pamela Dennison)
"Really Reliable Recall" (www.dogwise.com)
"The Other End of the Leash" (Patricia McConnell, PhD)


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Mike778 said:


> Will have to spend a whole day re-organising the house though. A lot of stuff lying on the ground that's going to be potential hazards to the pup.


Please read about crates and get your puppy crate trained. Then you don't have to reorganize the house.


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## Mike778 (May 22, 2009)

FourIsCompany said:


> Please read about crates and get your puppy crate trained. Then you don't have to reorganize the house.


How big should a crate be?


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

This is a pretty thorough site for crate training. 

Crate Training

If you get a large crate, make sure you use a box inside it or something to make the space the puppy inhabits just big enough for him to stand, turn around and lie down. This will lower the chances of him soiling his crate (which you NEVER want to happen).

More Crate Training Info


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

like everyone else has said German Shepherd Dogs are a very social breed. To leave a GSD outside all the time, with little human companionship is asking for a mentaly deranged dog that could easily develope aggression issues.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If I left Strauss outside all the time, he'd become a menace x.x

Socialization is HIGHLY important for this breed, and the require a TON of interaction, mental stimulation, and physical ways to burn off energy. They are not the breed for everyone, and I ALWAYS get concerned when someone announces they're getting a new GSD puppy, because it's so easy to get one from a crappy breeder x.x


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I ALWAYS get concerned when someone announces they're getting a new GSD puppy, because it's so easy to get one from a crappy breeder x.x


This is my concern. I know my breeder asked what the dogs' living condition would be... If I had said they were going to live outside, she wouldn't have sold them to me... 

There are very few breeds that I would approve of living outside, away from the family.


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## anonymusneo (Apr 28, 2009)

umm make sure that ur gsd doesnt has a slant back like the kenel club says ...its a genetic disorder


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

FourIsCompany said:


> There are very few breeds that I would approve of living outside, away from the family.



Which one's would those be?


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Livestock Guardians.


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

Alright, you've got me there. Wasn't even thinking them.

But, even they like to be around their livestock. Not alone.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

Oh...where is the popcorn icon???? 

This thread's about to heat up.


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## Dog Tracks (Jan 13, 2009)

Hi Mike, 
Your post reminds me of ME, 7 years ago before we adopted Mabel. My wife and I wanted to do the right things...but we had little to no idea of what those were. 

Follow folks advice on the crate. Best thing we ever did (and my first reaction was "I'll never put my dog in a prison"). If you do it properly, your dog will love his crate and it will make your life a lot easier. A crate should ONLY be large enough for the dog to easily stand up and turn around. If it's any bigger than that it won't feel like a "den". The crate is essentially your dog's "safe place" where he can relax, no one will bother him.

We discovered that Mabel had a moderately low tolerance for children when she would go to her crate whenever they came over. She'd play with them for 10-15 minutes but then make a beeline for her crate. She trusted us to keep the kids away from her crate so she could relax. It gave her a little control over the situation...which is much better than having a dog nip/bite a kid when it's just trying to say "okay, I don't want to play anymore."

I admire how you've responded to the "rough" advice offered here. When I was first learning, and asked what I thought was a perfectly reasonable question ("How many times should I pin/roll my dog before she realizes that I'm the dominant one?" ) I thought I'd stepped on a hornet's nest. Sometimes the answers are a little rough and terse, but they're always meant in the best.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> umm make sure that ur gsd doesnt has a slant back like the kenel club says ...its a genetic disorder


Don't give false information.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Mike,

It seems like you just really are a newbie to dog ownership and don't know exactly what to do. Which is why you've come here for help  I'm glad no one is giving you a hard time and that you're open to suggestions.

I agree with everyone else that a puppy cannot and should not be left outside. Dogs are social creatures, and leaving them outside to their own devices all day is asking for problem behaviors like barking, digging, separation anxiety and aggression. The pup should live indoors with you. If you're concerned about hair, dirt, and things of that nature, consider designating only a few rooms that you will allow the dog in. I know there are people on this forum that do the same. (My dog is not allowed in the bedrooms.)

Crate training is also a great idea because it keeps the dog safe and comfortable in one place I suggest buying a crate big enough that the dog will be able to fit into as an adult (I'd guess probably and extra large) but blocking off only a small part of it for use when the dog is a pup. You want to make sure that it's not too big, because if it is, the pup will sleep at one end and poop at the other. That is NOT what you want. 

Keeping the dog on a good food, brushing regularly, and wiping the dog down after being outside (check out something like this) will keep hair and dirt to a relative minimum.

Remember that socialization is important and you should be exposing the pup to many new people, dogs, and novel things. When s/he is old enough, please consider puppy and beginner obedience training classes.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Living outside is perfectly OK as long as the dog gets enough exercise and interaction. There is nothing magical about being "inside", in fact I think most dogs would rather be outside .... unless the people are inside that is. 

For example, for a household where everybody works and is gone all day, there is no advantage to having the dog inside during those hours. Ditto during sleeping hours. 

Its not outside or inside that is the issue, its the amount of exercise, interaction and stimulation he gets. For most people that will mean having him in the house at least part of the time, because that's were you are. 

I know lots of dogs, especially in more rural areas, who are strictly outside dogs but are very well balanced and have great lives. And lots of "indoor" dogs who never get exercise and are neurotic nuts.

For an adult GSD, temperature wise, being outside is no problem.

Outside / inside is not the issue. Exercise and stimulation are.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> For example, for a household where everybody works and is gone all day, there is no advantage to having the dog inside during those hours. Ditto during sleeping hours.


Sure there are....not having nearby neighbors poison your dog if it's a barker. 
Not having the animal injured by an intruder (human or other animal)
Not having to worry about the animal suffering from heat stroke, or being trapped in inclement weather
Not having to worry about the animal escaping (some of them become climbers and/or diggers in quick fashion)
Not having to worry about the animal breaking his tether if that's what was done to "contain" him
Not having to worry about someone STEALING the animal!

All good reasons to keep them in the house unless you have BEYOND proper precautions to keep them contained and safe.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> For example, for a household where everybody works and is gone all day, there is no advantage to having the dog inside during those hours. Ditto during sleeping hours.


I can think of many advantages..

Not getting stolen, not escaping, being kept safe in the event someone wanders into the yard (think little kid fetching their ball kind of thing)

There are plently of people who keep their dogs outside but it's not without exceptional security and a good reason for them being out there (like being a breeder and owning a large number of animals). If you're going to have ONE dog, a breed like a GSD who DEVOTES themselves to their people, why would you plan to keep it outside? Get an LGD if you want an outside dog.

ETA Wow Xeph we read each other's minds


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I got to stay out of this because I am totally amazed at the idea of putting an 8 week old pup out in cold is so astoundingly out of it, that I am afraid of how I would reply. I'm sure I would say something totally stupid and mean spirited to OP. I'm not worried about the socializing end of the pup as he will never live long enough to get that far.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I think the OP has reconsidered keeping hte pup outside and is asking for info on crate training and housebreaking now.


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## anonymusneo (Apr 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Don't give false information.


umm go watch this " BBC pedigree dogs exposed" download it from torrent then comment on my post


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

That so called documentary is full of half truths and outright lies. It's a propaganda tool for animal rights activists.


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## anonymusneo (Apr 28, 2009)

i dont think so atleast for the GSD part .they are right


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

No, they're not, the sloped back is help them stay low to the ground for herding (their original purpose). Collies are built the same way for the same purpose as are other herding dogs. The lower back end puts more power in the rear and allows for sudden change in directions. It's form follows function.


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

Did we scare ya away yet? Hope not. What did you decide?


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Sure there are....not having nearby neighbors poison your dog if it's a barker.
> Not having the animal injured by an intruder (human or other animal)
> Not having to worry about the animal suffering from heat stroke, or being trapped in inclement weather
> Not having to worry about the animal escaping (some of them become climbers and/or diggers in quick fashion)
> ...


Well these are all the sort of risks people have to evaluate based on their own circumstances. Obviously, the dog should have some sort of shelter and water, so heat stroke is not an issue. I didn't recommend tethering. Yards can be made escape proof. As far as intruders/neighbors/predators stealing or poisoning or killing ... well I guess it depends where you live. 

Sometimes, people can be a bit overly protective. You have to balance off the positives (for both dog or owner) against the risks. At least outside there can be a little stimulation, smells, cars going by, insects to hunt, squirrels to chase etc. An empty house is very boring.

A lot of people just can't seem to picture their little babies outside. But they're not little babies, they're dogs, and its more natural for them to be outside than in.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Alright, here's a question that has sort of been fermenting in the back of my mind for awhile: Why do we assume dogs are always "happier" outside or that its more natural/entertaining for them?

I mean I know my pup loves going outside on walks with me and sniffing around, but if he was by himself in a backyard all day he would probably just sleep the same way he would inside the house. Only inside the house it's temperature controlled and safer and he has a soft bed.

Is it because people think dogs are more like wolves or wild animals? They're not. They're domestic animals.

I guess what bothers me is the naturalization of the assumption that all dogs are meant to be outside. What dogs are meant for is to be with their people I think. Whether that's indoors or outdoors.

Am I making sense here?

It seems almost as bad as anthropomorphizing. We as humans are assuming they would prefer to be outside because we categorize them as animals or think, "if I was a dog I'd prefer to be outside". I'm not saying it's definitely not true that dogs prefer outside but I wish people wouldn't assume it's some irrefutable fact or Truth or something.


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## anonymusneo (Apr 28, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> No, they're not, the sloped back is help them stay low to the ground for herding (their original purpose). Collies are built the same way for the same purpose as are other herding dogs. The lower back end puts more power in the rear and allows for sudden change in directions. It's form follows function.


then what about thier bent rare legs?


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

peppy264 said:


> Obviously, the dog should have some sort of shelter and water, so heat stroke is not an issue.


Yeah, tell that to the half dozen people that bring thier heat stroked dogs into the vet clinic every summer. Apparently the big shady tree and kiddie pool, in adition to the shelter and water, weren't enough to prevent it. I've only seen one dog pull out of it, but ended up being euthed 2 days later because the brain damage was too severe. When It's hot outside the water in the bowl warms up and doesn't do a whole lot to keep an animal cool. And again shade can only do so much, if it's in the 80's or 90's it's not going to be a cool 62 in the shade.



anonymusneo said:


> then what about thier bent rare legs?


All dogs have a bend in thier rear legs.


It's called thier knees.


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## anonymusneo (Apr 28, 2009)

animalcraker said:


> Yeah, tell that to the half dozen people that bring thier heat stroked dogs into the vet clinic every summer. Apparently the big shady tree and kiddie pool, in adition to the shelter and water, weren't enough to prevent it. I've only seen one dog pull out of it, but ended up being euthed 2 days later because the brain damage was too severe. When It's hot outside the water in the bowl warms up and doesn't do a whole lot to keep an animal cool. And again shade can only do so much, if it's in the 80's or 90's it's not going to be a cool 62 in the shade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no no i mean GSD pure bred have lower rare legs as compared to other gsd's


watch the documentary "bbc dogs exposed" u will get the idea what i mean


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Max, your right in that they are domestic animals, but first and foremost they are animals. They have much more in common with wolves then with people. As far as domestication being synonymous with being inside, this is only really true for urban North America, not large parts of the rest of the world.

Take a dog for a walk in the forest. Look at him. Fido is a very happy camper. They get stimulation from natural smells (plants, other animals, etc) that we cannot sense. A back yard is a poor substitution for a forest, but better than the laundry room.

Temperature control and a soft bed are what you need, not many dogs. Many dogs like a GSD are more comfortable outside in the cold then inside at 78 F. Soft bed? Heard of grass?

Your right, a dog O/S will sleep most of the day just like if he was inside. But at least he has a little more stimulation, a little more to smell etc.

There is no doubt that dogs are social and want to be with us. I'm speaking of the time periods when you are not interacting with them (ie your asleep or at work).



animalcraker said:


> Yeah, tell that to the half dozen people that bring thier heat stroked dogs into the vet clinic every summer. Apparently the big shady tree and kiddie pool, in adition to the shelter and water, weren't enough to prevent it. I've only seen one dog pull out of it, but ended up being euthed 2 days later because the brain damage was too severe. When It's hot outside the water in the bowl warms up and doesn't do a whole lot to keep an animal cool. And again shade can only do so much, if it's in the 80's or 90's it's not going to be a cool 62 in the shade.


People have to evaluate their own circumstances (yard, climate, etc) and act appropriately. Its ridiculous to say you cannot keep a dog outside without it getting heat stroke. 

How many dogs die each year from something they ate from inside the house (toxic or foriegn bodies being stuck internally)? How many dogs get sent to shelters because of destructive behavior when left alone inside ? There are hazards everywhere, you just have to deal with them appropriately.


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## anonymusneo (Apr 28, 2009)

ok here i found that documentary video


heres the first part 


for GSD see at 6:00 of this video


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

anonymusneo said:


> no no i mean GSD pure bred have lower rare legs as compared to other gsd's
> 
> 
> watch the documentary "bbc dogs exposed" u will get the idea what i mean


I have watched the mockumentary and I've conversed with the producer of it on a UK dog forum. I'm of the same opinion as Cshellenberger that's is a buch of sensationalized half truths and a propaganda tool for animal rights activists. Yes the GSD is stacked with it's hind end lower that other breeds, but I could just as easily stack my Springer or Cavalier the same way and get a similar effect.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

anonymusneo said:


> no no i mean GSD pure bred have lower rare legs as compared to other gsd's


Pure bred GSDs compared to "other" GSDs? If they're not pure bred, then they're not GSDs. 



peppy264 said:


> A back yard is a poor substitution for a forest, but better than the laundry room.


I actually agree with this. If the dog is in a temperature-controlled area *and protected *from strangers and other threats, then outside is better than a laundry room if no one is in the house anyway. 

Actually, when I leave, my husband tells me that the dogs go outside and don't come back in until I come home. But they have the choice. And when I'm home, they're with me, regardless if I'm inside or out, whether it's hot or cold. The Shepherds are right here beside me, asleep right now.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> i dont think so atleast for the GSD part .they are right


Go read all of my posts on GSD structure, then tell me to go watch that BBC propaganda crap again 

I own, show, and will soon be breeding (YAY!!!) GSDs...I know their structural faults and weaknesses, and I learned through hands on experience, not a propaganda film 



> Look at him. Fido is a very happy camper.


Fido is also on an e-collar to keep him from killing himself when the rabbit takes him on a wild chase to likely doom.



> Many dogs like a GSD are more comfortable outside in the cold then inside at 78 F. Soft bed? Heard of grass?


Tell that to Strauss, Justin, and Delphi, who most definitely want to be inside when the Wisconsin temperature hits -40 F in the winter



> But at least he has a little more stimulation, a little more to smell etc.


Why does it matter when he's ASLEEP!? LOL

To be moderately fair, my dogs HAVE to sleep indoors with me, due to (my) medical issues


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## anonymusneo (Apr 28, 2009)

:| well ok if uguys say so but stil i dont find it false ..xeph gime ur linky's 


ima go sleep now gn


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

peppy264 said:


> As far as domestication being synonymous with being inside, this is only really true for urban North America, not large parts of the rest of the world.




I still think people tend to over-romanticize a dog's connection with the great outdoors.

Anyhooters I didn't mean dogs don't enjoy being outdoors and maybe more than inside but I just question your treatment of it as FACT. 

Also sometimes being the reasonable people we have to make decisions on behalf of our dogs that are better for them. So the same reason I won't give my dog fried chicken for dinner every night just because it would make him happy is the same reason I wouldn't let him stay outside all day. Even for human beings you sometimes have to sacrafice (potential) happiness for safety and practicality.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

anonymusneo said:


> then what about thier bent rare legs?



You mean rear legs? They are positioned that way FOR SHOW, again, if you watch a GSD work you'll see the function. Yes, you will see a few that are over angulated, that's bad, but SOME angulation is needed for them to do their jobs. It's like the back stucture of a Geyhound, the back is rounded so the it acts like a spring for running (much like a cheetah) so the hound goes faster.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

For the OP, who can benefit from these links as well:

The crippled American dog "Justin" herding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwWuEu4eA-Q

The Crippled German Shepherd

The German Shepherd thread

What's with the GSD sloped back

German Shepherd Dogs and their slants


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## Dog Tracks (Jan 13, 2009)

Just a quick thought on the Inside/Outside issue. 

I grew up next to a farm (typical new suburb being built next to farms). The farmer's two dogs were NEVER allowed in the house, ever. ("Inside for people. Outside for animals" he used to say). 

But the farmer and the other members of the family were constantly outside too! And the dogs followed them around like glue. The family was up and outside every morning at 6 am and only went inside the house for meals and to sleep. I don't recall that the dogs had a particular "job" to do (the farm had some livestock, but all in pens, corrals, etc), but they had more interaction with people than 90% of house-dogs have today. Heck, the dogs were probably glad when the people went inside...so they could get some rest.

But most dogs don't live on farms today, or spend the whole day with their person while he/she is doing his/her job. Today being outside means being left alone morning/afternoon/evening/night. Even when his people are only 20 feet away...in the house. How depressing to the dog!

It's two very different lifestyles (farming and non-farming) for the people and for the dogs. 

I think the "people inside, dogs outside" attitude is a holdover from our very recent agricultural past. And one that doesn't apply anymore.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

anonymusneo said:


> no no i mean GSD pure bred have lower rare legs as compared to other gsd's
> 
> 
> watch the documentary "bbc dogs exposed" u will get the idea what i mean



Watched it, it's crap. Oh and ONLY pure bred GSD's are GSD's, anything else is a mix or a different breed all together. I gues being raised with them and knowing what they do makes a huge difference in how i see things.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I think another reason it was "People inside, dogs outside" is that we didn't have the "pest control" items available that we do today.

Frontline, K9 Advantix, HeartGard....those things didn't exist. And so, animals stayed outside to minimize the chance of fleas, ticks, and other such vermin.


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## GSDGAL (May 27, 2009)

ididn't put my dog out until she was 6 months old, even then she only goes out in spring and summer...winter and autumn is inside time


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## Mike778 (May 22, 2009)

Thanks for all the reply guys. I think I didn't explain myself properly. When I said I planned on keeping the dog outside, it was for when I wouldn't be home, which is not that often at all. If I'm at home I would be letting him inside of course.

But I guess a pup would be too young to leave outside alone at all from everything you guys are saying so I'll definetely be investing in a good crate and training him well.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

peppy264 said:


> Well these are all the sort of risks people have to evaluate based on their own circumstances. Obviously, the dog should have some sort of shelter and water, so heat stroke is not an issue. I didn't recommend tethering. Yards can be made escape proof. As far as intruders/neighbors/predators stealing or poisoning or killing ... well I guess it depends where you live.
> 
> *Sometimes, people can be a bit overly protective.* You have to balance off the positives (for both dog or owner) against the risks. At least outside there can be a little stimulation, smells, cars going by, insects to hunt, squirrels to chase etc. An empty house is very boring.
> 
> *A lot of people just can't seem to picture their little babies outside.* But they're not little babies, they're dogs, and its more natural for them to be outside than in.


I will remember that the next time there is a theft of German Shpherds around here (they sweep thru pretty regularly). They steal them for use as more advanced "bait" dogs for dogs trained for fighting. 

My dog, who can be 70 pounds of pure terror, as wella s 70 pounds of pure gentle with an 8 pound cat, is hardly a baby.. 



peppy264 said:


> Max, your right in that they are domestic animals, but first and foremost they are animals. *They have much more in common with wolves then with people. * .


This has been put to rest many many times on the Dog Forums. Dogs have little in common with dogs OR humans. they mostly have much in common with.. well... DOGS.... 



peppy264 said:


> How many dogs die each year from something they ate from inside the house (toxic or foriegn bodies being stuck internally)? How many dogs get sent to shelters because of destructive behavior when left alone inside ? There are hazards everywhere, you just have to deal with them appropriately.


Crate Crate Crate Crate..... 



Dog Tracks said:


> Just a quick thought on the Inside/Outside issue.
> 
> I grew up next to a farm (typical new suburb being built next to farms). The farmer's two dogs were NEVER allowed in the house, ever. ("Inside for people. Outside for animals" he used to say).
> 
> ...


I was an owner/operator of a _Successful_ dairy farm for 20 years )sold dairy cows in 1996 and then had dairy heifers for 3 more years). My dogs were with me all day. Some dogs worked. Other dogs did not. My last GSD worked cattle and she was invaluable. 

And while they spent all day with me.. at night they were in the house. 

In other countries the dogs are not so lucky. In some of those countries the dogs are still considered fit for human consumption. Here in the US they are not. Lucky dogs! 

*As to the "crippled" German shepherd with the sloping "rare" (rear?) end*.. I have posted this b4.. this is my dog. Xeph has likewise posted extensively and with knowledge on this subject. These dogs were bred to tend sheep.. trotting all day long.. and so they are structured for that job. 

As Xeph has pointed out, this individual (my dog) actually slopees too much in the croupo and should carry a level back further to the tail. 

Xeph has posted a lot of good photos. Don't believe every documentary you see.. just because it is on TV does not mean it is correct.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Max'sHuman said:


> Alright, here's a question that has sort of been fermenting in the back of my mind for awhile: Why do we assume dogs are always "happier" outside or that its more natural/entertaining for them?


Because my dog is constantly trying to get me to take her outside? And she seems to enjoy being out there more, just not unless I'm out there too?

Even after 4 mile walk and a half hour of chase/tug play.

Seems given her choice we would both spend most our time in the back yard.

But it really depends on the dog, and the yard too I guess.

I haven't known any that prefer to be outside when it's freezing temps though, and most seem to prefer air conditioning when it's really hot out.

Just observations.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Because my dog is constantly trying to get me to take her outside?


But that's YOUR dog. What about those of us that have dogs that AREN'T crazy about the outdoors?

Strauss likes being outside, but not by himself....he'll just lay down in the grass. He doesn't sniff other than the cursory perimeter run to remark everything after a rain storm.

My dog only wants to be outside if I'm outside, and the only time he asks to go out is if he has to potty 

Justin's the same way....I imagine Delphi will also be the same.

Doesn't matter where I take the boys...they don't really explore. They sort of sniff and then pee all over everything 

Delphi thus far (for the 24 hours I had her) seemed perfectly content to be on her longline and have me throw a toy for her. Neither dog did a ton of exploring at the hotel room aside from finding a place to pee.

Different areas necessary for dogs? Yes. To be outside all the time to be stimulated...no. That's what training is for. That is far more mentally stimulating than different smells


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> This has been put to rest many many times on the Dog Forums. Dogs have little in common with dogs OR humans. they mostly have much in common with.. well... DOGS....


I think you meant to say wolves..

It's rather obvious dogs have more in common with wolves than humans, humans can't breed with wolves and produce viable fertile offspring, dogs can. They are closer to wolves than we are to chimps.

Behaviorally they are very different of course, but still closer than we are by an order of magnitude.

As for GSDs, mine certainly doesn't have a "lower" rear end, unless she is placed in a stacked pose, she's a bit long legged and lanky side for a GSD at 70lbs. But the misinformation and wrong beliefs is a little understandable with the propensity for hip/joint disorders and all. I run into folks that think every GSD has bad hips frequently.

I'm not that familiar, I don't really even know the best way to have my girl checked for it, or help minimize chances of issue later in life. Something I need to get educated about more.

Anyway, the original poster seems to have gotten the info needed.

I would just repeat whatever he decides that a pup that young needs all the people time it can get at that stage of mental development.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

InkedMarie said:


> I'm not responding to anyone in particular here but we once had neighbors that had the best set up for their two dogs. They had a heated garage that was blocked off with kenneling so the dogs could use half the garage...they had a doggie door in the garage going out into a good sized kennel. It was the best of both worlds, the dogs were warm in the winter but had access to the outside.


I just don't really understand this scenario. Do you mean they stayed out there all the time? If so, why have a dog at all?
My dogs are members of our family, where we go, they go, with the exception of work (during the regular week, they do come to the shop where i groom quite often) and school for the kiddos. I enjoy their coompanionship and they seem to enjoy mine . I'm sure if we had a dog park or lake inside the house, they'd never want to leave the house at all LOL.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> But that's YOUR dog. What about those of us that have dogs that AREN'T crazy about the outdoors?


You mst have missed this part...



TxRider said:


> But it really depends on the dog, and the yard too I guess.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

TxRider said:


> I would just repeat whatever he decides that a pup that young needs all the people time it can get at that stage of mental development.


Absolutely, agreed. I think this is not just true for puppies though.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I just don't really understand this scenario. Do you mean they stayed out there all the time?


It just means they turned the garage into a kennel run. The dogs could go into the run or into the house through a doggie door.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> It just means they turned the garage into a kennel run. The dogs could go into the run or into the house through a doggie door.


Oh, OK, I missed the part about a doggie door to the house as well


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Mike778 said:


> Thanks for all the reply guys. I think I didn't explain myself properly. When I said I planned on keeping the dog outside, it was for when I wouldn't be home, which is not that often at all. If I'm at home I would be letting him inside of course.
> 
> But I guess a pup would be too young to leave outside alone at all from everything you guys are saying so I'll definetely be investing in a good crate and training him well.


Glad you clarified. Me, I'd be afraid to leave my dogs out when I'm not home. I have barky breeds so that's the main reason. Second, I'd be a nervous wreck while I was gone



Dieselsmama said:


> I just don't really understand this scenario. Do you mean they stayed out there all the time? If so, why have a dog at all?
> My dogs are members of our family, where we go, they go, with the exception of work (during the regular week, they do come to the shop where i groom quite often) and school for the kiddos. I enjoy their coompanionship and they seem to enjoy mine . I'm sure if we had a dog park or lake inside the house, they'd never want to leave the house at all LOL.


oops, I should have clarified: when they were at work. I agree with you, my dogs are inside all the time, I only work a 4-5.5hr shift so I'm not gone long. Two of mine are crated when I'm at work and when we're gone. If we're gone for the day, neighbors do "doggie duty". For this couple, the garage/access to kennel worked well


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I will remember that the next time there is a theft of German Shpherds around here (they sweep thru pretty regularly). They steal them for use as more advanced "bait" dogs for dogs trained for fighting.


Well we don't all live in the NE U.S.



> This has been put to rest many many times on the Dog Forums. Dogs have little in common with dogs[wolves] OR humans. they mostly have much in common with.. well... DOGS....


Dogs are something like 93% (97%?) genetically identical to wolves. And I don't think anything is every put to rest on DogForums! In any case, my point was that dogs are animals, and most animals (and many humans!) have a natural affinity for the outdoors more than hardwood floors, drywall, carpets etc etc .... Maybe your dogs are different, and maybe lots of dogs which have spent most of their lives indoors have been conditioned to feel more comfortable inside, but you cannot tell me that on some basic level most dogs will not prefer the outdoors (as long as they have company!)



> Crate Crate Crate Crate.....


And why not wrap them in cotton batten while you are at it?
Seriously, I think crates are great at times, and if a dog is kept outside certain precautions are necessary. But if you read these pages:
- don't let your dog be outside unsupervised he might get stolen
- if your dog is inside unsupervised put him in a crate so he doesn't eat the wrong thing
- don't let him chase a rabbit, he might get hurt by a predator
- don't jog with him if he is under 2 yrs old, his joints might be affected
- don't let him meet other dogs before his last shots
- get him neutered ASAP so he doesn't get test. cancer
- don't shoot a gun near him or he will be gun shy
- don't let him swim in the lake (algae, parasites etc)
- don't leave him unsupervised around children for even a minute, they might do something to him..

and so on so forth.

In life we all take certain risks so as to enjoy life more. We cross the street. We play sports. We get in airplanes. We eat junk food. Whatever. Personally I'd rather see my dog live a fuller life, even if it means taking on some very minor risks now and again.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

> Dogs are something like 93% (97%?) genetically identical to wolves


So?? And what are people to chimps?? Are we chimps?? No, we may be closely, almost 100 percent related to them, but we are not them. We think differently, and act differently. Yes there are some similarities, but we are certainly NOT chimps.



> - don't let your dog be outside unsupervised he might get stolen
> - if your dog is inside unsupervised put him in a crate so he doesn't eat the wrong thing
> - don't let him chase a rabbit, he might get hurt by a predator
> - don't jog with him if he is under 2 yrs old, his joints might be affected
> ...


All of those are great things 
But there are more reasons to do those things.

1.) Not just get stolen, could be poisoned, teased, injured, etc..the list goes on
2.) Definitely, dogs chew when they are bored, or just want to chew. 
3.) Or he could run away and never come back!
4.) With some dogs, like XL dogs, yes, makes sense
5.) Well yeah that makes sense, as parvo and distemper can be deadly.
6.) Not everyone believes that, some get neutered to prevent unwanted puppies, etc..
7.) If you didn't know what a gun was, would you be afraid if someone shot one right over you?
8.) many people let their dogs swim in lakes, some prefer not too.
9) DUH!! Why would you leave a dog alone with a child when children are curious evil little things that stick fingers places fingers should go like in eyes!!!

Your dog is not going to live a less full life if he doesn't get to do those things.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> - don't let your dog be outside unsupervised he might get stolen


It's true



> - if your dog is inside unsupervised put him in a crate so he doesn't eat the wrong thing


How is this any different than taking a safety precaution outdoors by using a kennel run?



> - don't let him chase a rabbit, he might get hurt by a predator


How about don't let him chase a rabbit, he could be hit by a car because prey drive overrode his recall?



> - don't jog with him if he is under 2 yrs old, his joints might be affected


Hey, if you want a large or giant breed with severe orthopedic issues by a year of age, be my guest and jog with them on hard pavement! Very few people have access to fully grassed areas where dogs can be safely exercised away from home.



> - don't let him meet other dogs before his last shots


Common sense....I don't know what other dogs may have carried from where. Do we take our new babies a ton of places before innoculations? Generally, no (and in this case it's not anthropomorphizing...it's pretty dang true).



> - get him neutered ASAP so he doesn't get test. cancer


The one thing mentioned that I actually disagree with.



> - don't shoot a gun near him or he will be gun shy


That's just silly xD My dog is gun sure.



> - don't let him swim in the lake (algae, parasites etc)


Strauss refuses to swim, so that's not an issue, LOL 



> - don't leave him unsupervised around children for even a minute, they might do something to him..


Common sense again. How many "unprovoked" dog bites involving children do we hear about every year? "She was just sitting there and he bit her." "He pulled on his ear and she bit him."

I have tons of pictures posted of Strauss laying with my nephew, giving him kisses and resting his head on th carseat...but don't you think for a MINUTE that I'm stupid enough to leave him to "babysit" that child.

Heck, it bothers me a LOT when my mother puts him on the floor in the carseat with the dogs walking around. Buddy has to go to his kennel and Strauss comes with me to my room. And who does my mother worry about? Not the dogs misconstruing a sound from the baby and biting, but the CATS who will "steal his breath away" because they smell milk.

The cats could give a crap about the baby


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

anonymusneo said:


> ok here i found that documentary video
> 
> 
> heres the first part
> ...



It's at 7:20, and these dogs movement is hideous. They almost look like they have wobbles.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The movement is hideous because the presentation is ABYSMAL!

The first dog is incredibly moderate, but also UBER stressed.

He's also PULLING like a loon. Strauss WILL wobble like that if he's pulling like an idiot. I wouldn't doubt that dog wobbles a little when he walks, but not to the extreme that he does when he's heaving into his collar. On top of that, the first dog never even gaits...he paces x.x

I will say his topline is HIDEOUS in motion. He looks much better standing.

The second dog is more extreme in angle, but again presented poorly (do these people know what they're doing AT ALL!?). He too is hard charging the collar, head down. While he roaches in motion, he certainly looks worse due to pulling with his head towards the floor. He also does not gait at all.

The hocks do wobble because they are loosely ligamented (needs to be improved).

That's going to be something I try to improve in breeding Delphi...she's a little loose. Not terrible by any stretch of the imagination, but she needs to be tightened up a bit.

Even at crufts the presentation was HORRIBLE and they didn't show a single dog that was properly presented (and I'm sure tehre were some).


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Pepper said:


> Your dog is not going to live a less full life if he doesn't get to do those things.


Actually, he is going to have a less full life, because:
- he prefers outside to inside (see above)
- he doesn't like spending endless hours in a crate
- he loves chasing rabbits
- he loves going for runs and the exercise is very good for him physically and mentally
- he would have missed the socialization benefits of meeting dogs when he was very young
- re neutering: self explanatory 
- he thinks looking for birds and retrieving them is FUN!
- he loves the lake
- he'd rather be with kids than be alone 

So you can argue whether or not the risks are worth it, but don't pretend you are not depriving your dog of positive things by exercising so much caution. And for most of these things the risks can only be weighted when the particular circumstances are known. There probably are some lakes I wouldn't let my dog in. But am I going to make sure a lake has a 100% clean bill of health before letting him in? No. Let him enjoy himself.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

1.) Some dogs do prefer it, but they also enjoy interaction.
2.) My dog does not spend endless hours in a crate, and whoever does leave there dog for endless hours in a crate needs to work out a new schedule.
3.) Yes, most dogs love chasing rabbits, thats what flirt poles are for.
4.) Runs are great, but do you want to be able to run when your dog is older, or do you want to have to possibly deal with arthritis problems? I know a lab that was ran heavily before she was one and she has joint problems in all her legs and is only 4.
5.) Unless your dog is finishing shots way late, there is plenty of time for socialization with other dogs.
6.) What does that have to do with being gun shy? You should train your dog not to be gun shy, not just surprise them with a startling bang that could scare the crap out of them
7.) If your dog has never been in a lake, he won't miss not being in a lake, therefore, he won't live a less fulfilling life.
8.) If you want to risk leaving a kid and dog alone, that's up to you. Read the newspapers. Your dog isn't going to get all depressed if he can't be alone with a kid. 



I think the only types of dogs that should be left outside, are the ones that obviously want to be left outside, and can tolerate being outside.

Here in the AK, the shelters are over run with huskies, usually retired racers or just bad racers, most do not want to be inside. You bring them inside and they hate it and paw, scream, and howl to be let outside and left outside. They prefer to be outside in the elements whether it be rain or shine. Yes they want your attention, and affection, but they would prefer to be outside. Yes there are huskies in the shelters who want to be inside, but most, do not. They can tolerate our -60 F winters, although it must be horribly cold! They probably still won't come inside. Our shelter has about 40 outside kennel runs specifically for the dogs that do not want to be inside.

Those dogs I can agree with being left outside, because they choose it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Actually, he is going to have a less full life, because:
> - he prefers outside to inside (see above)


Yours does...mine don't


> - he doesn't like spending endless hours in a crate


Being forced to? No. But of their own volition, my dogs DO spend "countless hours" in their kennels. They feel safe and secure there. Nobody bothers them.


> - he loves chasing rabbits


And I love having a LIVE dog.


> - he loves going for runs and the exercise is very good for him physically and mentally


Something I actually agree with!


> - he would have missed the socialization benefits of meeting dogs when he was very young


They can wait a couple of weeks for shots. I actually bring in dogs I know are vaccinated to play with and help socialize puppies.


> - he thinks looking for birds and retrieving them is FUN!


I have Shepherds and a failed Labrador...they could give a whit about birds.


> - he loves the lake


He really doesn't LOL


> - he'd rather be with kids than be alone


Then he can be with kids while I'm supervising


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Nobody here locks their dogs up for hours in a crate, that's NOT what crate training is about, it's about keeping a pup that will get into ANYTHING out of trouble. When done correctly, a dog will use the crate as a 'den' when it wants to be left alone. 

My daughter was bitten by the family dog and ended up with 52 stitches in her face, the dog was PTS, my husbands back was turned for only a couple of seconds while my daughter set a bowl of water on the floor for the dog and the dog gave no warning that he recognized. A dog should NEVER be left alone with a young child, too much can happen (to BOTH) and it can happen in the blink of an eye.

As Xeph said, it won't hurt to wait a couple weeks to take a pup out in the general public , however there are other socialization opportunities that can be used, such as controlled play sessions with dogs you know to be immunized.

Not every dog likes water, my girl will play in the hose, but won't go near a lake, pool or the ocean. I wouldn't allow her near stagant water is she did enjoy such things.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Well just to defend myself ....

i) as I said above, outside can be preferred by a dog to inside when nobody is inside. We all agree the dogs want to be with us regardless where we are!

ii) I am all for crates and use them myself. But in this thread first I was told it was to dangerous to leave a dog outside. I pointed out that there are inside hazards as well - and was told to keep the dog crated! Well I'm not going to keep him crated all the time just to keep him 100% safe as opposed to 99% safe.

iii) I let my dogs chase rabbits in the woods, not near roads. Could he get hurt, attacked by a bear or coyote ...maybe but life has risks.

iv) running in moderation on appropriate surfaces etc, not 20 miles thru NYC with a 6 m old pup.

v) the younger the socialization with other dogs the better. No strays around here, dogs generally have had their shots, a risk worth taking IMHO.

With respect to kids, I take zero risks (ie 100% supervision) with kids other than my own. With my own I know the kid and I know the dog, and like most people I give them some trust / leeway. There's some threads here where people say you have to have 100% supervision with any kid under like 12 years old. Thats getting very carried away IMHO.

I'm not trying to tell others what to do, I just think that the blanket cautions that get thrown around can ofter damage quality of life out of proportion to the risks avoided. People appear to be more cautious with their dogs then with themselves.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> With my own I know the kid and I know the dog, and like most people I give them some trust / leeway.


I know my brothers and sisters too, and know they can't be trusted alone with the dogs unless they're 12+

I don' take risks with ANY kids, not just some kids.

Just because you know your kid doesn't mean you KNOW your kid. Kids are humans, and they do STUPID things sometimes. They may know you shouldn't poke the dog in the eye, or shove their fingers up his nose, but it doesn't mean they won't do it.



> i) as I said above, outside can be preferred by a dog to inside when nobody is inside.


How would we know?! We're not there!



> I let my dogs chase rabbits in the woods, not near roads


The risk of my dog getting lost in the woods over some stupid rabbit isn't worth it for a few seconds of "fun"....nor is the risk of ME getting lost because I won't give up looking for the #@(&$(*&(*# dog because I let him chase a stupid hopper to give him "mental exercise".



> Well I'm not going to keep him crated all the time just to keep him 100% safe as opposed to 99% safe.


I envy your utopia. It's not safe to do that in my suburbia with crazy a$$ neighbors.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Xeph said:


> The movement is hideous because the presentation is ABYSMAL!
> 
> The first dog is incredibly moderate, but also UBER stressed.
> 
> ...


I'm glad somebody said this. The handling of all those dogs in the video was awful. I'm not a handler and I can see that much. It was SO BAD, it almost looked purposeful.

How on earth do crappy handlers such as that get a dog into Crufts?!

Also, on the subject of rabbit chasing, some of us don't allow it for another reason - for instance, in many places around here, there is a LAW against letting your dog torment the wildlife. CO is pretty protective over their bunnies lol. I don't want to get a ticket, so no, my dogs are NOT allowed to chase running animals.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Because Crufts is not (unlike Westminster) about the handling or the grooming, it's about the dogs. 

While I love the really crisp presentation that makes every dog look his/her best in American Shows, I also think there's something to be said for the more casual handling style of the British shows.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Before ANYONE accuses me of "coddling" my dog.. here goes.

My last dog worked on my farm herding cattle and sometimes the horse. She was kicked and she was butted. In her old age she was missing TWO canine teeth from having been kicked by cows.. one was removed by the vet (broken off) and the other was kicked out clean.. lucky she did not have a broken jaw. She had a fall once that injured her stifle ligaments. Nothing slowed her down in her work for very long. She lived to be 14 years old (so much for the GSD being "crippled"). 

Current dog goes everywhere with me. She has worked sheep but I no longer own the farm. I am sorry I don't. I keep her safe days in a crate because of theft issues here where I live now and I live in a rural area. Three or Four dogs, either shepherds or crosses, have been stolen here. Why would I be so blatently unintelligent as to NOT do all I can to prevent my dog from that fate? 

I train this dog in obedience and she works almost exclusively off leash these days. I take her where a leash is required, and she wears it and it lays over her back. When I do photo shoots and she CAN come along, she does. When I have to check out Forestlands (for my job) for purchase and timber tracts for purchase she also goes with me. If she chases anything I can stop her. Have to for herding work anyhow. 

I no longer have the farm or this dog would work every day like my last one did. 

No, not everyone lives in the NE US, but the NE US is largely rural. Just look at an Aerial image to see. 

Keeping your dog from harm is part of the deal of owning a dog. It should be applauded as being responsible in your ownership of an animal, not ridiculed as "coddling" or "swaddling."


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