# CM gets bitten... again ('showdown' with Holly) :(



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I know he is a sensitive topic on here but I felt compelled to share this disturbing vid someone shared on FB... beforre it gets taken down :/, i didnt see the entire ep, just the second half of it, but this three minute video is horribly disturbing, as are many of the comments on how many ppl think this is ok to do to a dog!!! anyway here is the vid, judge for yourself. 
*spoiler*
later it shows that he has 'adopted' the dog & that he used a rubber hand to 'cure' her of her FA & she is terrifed of the hand... hmm... wonder how she got that way :doh:


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

I only saw this on tv and i thought this guy is not a "good" trainer. I am not from the states, so i havent heard from him until sunday. I also watched the one with the brown chihuaha...how was that better? I dont know. I am not a fan of CM and his techniques.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I once watched him grab a doxie by the harness and swing him off the couch to the floor in a fast arc. That's not dog training, that's abuse.

That poor Holly could have easily been desensitized using clicker training. No fear of hands, no bites. Poor thing.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Poor dog!  Excuse me ... but then the dog is cornered! What else could be expected from the poor thing ... she was petrified from what I was reading! :doh:

Sheesh!!!:doh:


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

HOW could he have interpreted that dog's behavior as relaxation?? He's laying down but he's doing lots of whale eye, trying to not make eye contact with him, etc. When he first laid down he was sort of crouching in fear/discomfort. I know these signs are very subtle, but he is HELPING the general public miss them by describing the dog's behavior as relaxed when that's not at all what it is. At the end he's stiff and blinking when Cesar says, "That's better." Uh, no it's not. It's exactly the same as before the bite.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

i dont mess with my dogs at all, i dont know who most owners thing they have to!!! i just feed them in their crate or a quiet room where they wont be bothered & leave them be & make sure everyone else does too! I have never had an issue with RG or FG, i let my dogs see that they can trust me, that i am the giver of all things good, i can even 'trade' them for their raw recreational bones i give them sometimes, if course i wait til they are 'done' with them but i still treat them when taking them. 

i think that dog showed a lot of restraint & bite inhibition he really wasnt injured 'that' bad all things considered, a dog like josefina who doesnt have very good bite inhibition (orphan, no mom) would have torn his hand up if she got mad enough, which is why i'm glad i got her so she wouldnt have the chance of being subjected to this kind of treatment


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I watched it in silence just to watch the dogs body language ..............


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Why would anyone who is supposed to know dogs challenge a dog like that? He comes at the dog like a predator, I do not blame the dog one bit for biting him and you could see it coming even if he couldn't. That is certainly not the way to go about it, he has just made the dog worse. I do not usually remark on his videos but this one made me so mad and sorry for the poor dog.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

It's a good thing he didn't try to pet her again towards the end because her cornered like might have resulted in a more serious attack. And I was about to grab the popcorn too!


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

What bothers me most is (besides the poor dogs on the show) that this show is on tv and lots of people think this is how you train a dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Did you see the comments ppl made? Very very sad  I assume this vid will be taken down eventually as more ppl see it & post it, I got this from FB when a friend sent it to me. Very very sad, & his face when he was doing it, poor dog  just nervous & misunderstood, I'm glad Josefina got an owner like me & not like CM or these ppl, that could have been her due to he not having a mom & being an orphan & not knowing how to communicate, her intentions could be easily misinterpreted as 'challenging' or 'aggressive' when she relly means no harm. CM would ruin a dog like her.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

This video makes me belligerently angry. I largely do not pay any attention to CM, but this video is the quintessential wrong way to handle/interpret a dog and their behavior.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Not gonna lie though, it makes for interesting TV for the general public. It's awful as an "educational" show certainly.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lovejc said:


> That dog needs to be shot. I don't care who trained it it is a liability and should be euthed ASAP. I feel bad for Cesar...


Are you kidding me? You feel sorry for him for bullying a dog who is trying desperately to communicate to him that she does NOT want a "showdown"? This is the worst imaginable way to try to deal with a resource guarder, and he should have seen from a mile away that he was going to get bitten if he reached for her.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

lovejc said:


> That dog needs to be shot. I don't care who trained it it is a liability and should be euthed ASAP. I feel bad for Cesar...


Really? Sometimes when you aggress a dog they aggress back. It appeared to me that the dog was trying very hard not to respond. Resource guarding is usually a fairly easy fix. Of course the "fix" looks exactly opposite of this video. And now many clueless people will think this is how you handle it - and get bitten. But Cesar is good at getting people bit. Including himself.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

lovejc said:


> That dog needs to be shot. I don't care who trained it it is a liability and should be euthed ASAP. I feel bad for Cesar...


No. Just.. no.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

On top of that, that dog showed TREMENDOUS bite inhibition! She bit him more than once, but only ONE bite drew blood. She COULD have chosen to turn that hand into HAMBURGER!

That is a dog that is SANE and CLEAR HEADED and made every attempt possible to communicate with him that she was uncomfortable! Cesar is a DISGRACE!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

lovejc said:


> That dog needs to be shot. I don't care who trained it it is a liability and should be euthed ASAP. I feel bad for Cesar...


Sorry. But Holly gave plenty of signs that she was uncomfortable and needed space. Backing away, avoiding eye contact, etc. CM didn't heed her warning. He did everything wrong--and make the situation worse as opposed to better. He also gave her reason to fight considering he physically assaulted her for RGing.

Honestly, just look at CM's body language in the freeze frame of the video. How is that the dog's fault?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Xeph said:


> On top of that, that dog showed TREMENDOUS bite inhibition! She bit him more than once, but only ONE bite drew blood. She COULD have chosen to turn that hand into HAMBURGER!


And look how far he had to push her and how hard she tried to appease him before she bit him. Set her up to fail, and keep pushing her and pushing her when she does. NICE TRAINING.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Pressure a dog, ignore her "whispers" and she's going to scream (bite). The dog did nothing wrong...the human, however, should be euthed asap.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lovejc said:


> However, that dog is unstable.


That dog showed an incredible amount of restraint and inhibition. How exactly is that unstable?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She created one small puncture wound. Your assessment is laughable, in my opinion.

There was no instability in that dog. If she were unstable, she would have mauled him and not stopped, rather than just bitten his head, and then IMMEDIATELY gone into appeasement behaviors and avoidance again.

She didn't WANT to bite. The stupid human gave her no choice.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Let me break it down for you so that you can understand a bit better. If a dog draws blood-- shoot it.


Let me break it down for YOU.

That is insanity.



> You must be a proud owner of a couple of your own man biters?


Your powers of assessment are AMAZING! Ask the people on the forum who have met my dogs what man biters they are


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

lovejc said:


> I agree that he did not read her properly. However, that dog is unstable. If my dog did that (I don't care what situation) to me or anyone I would have her euthanized. Bite inhibition... wow. That dog created enough damage that she should not be alive. That is my opinion. People waste so much time on dogs like that, when there are so many awesome well behaved dogs in pounds being killed for no reason at all.
> I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to counter my opinion BUT no amount of bleeding hearts will make me change my mind.
> Cesar did not continue trying to pet her or do anything to her and she continued her attack. Cull man biters.


A dog that was not read properly (and by properly I mean HOLY WRONG) and pushed then physically assaulted while RGing is.. unstable? Sounds normal to me. If I tell you 50 times to stop doing something, and then when I make a physical move to stop that and you hit me, how much would you like to bet that I will hit you back? 

Fortunately for me and my "man biters" and resource guarders, you just have an opinion and no say over what happens to them.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I will take this step by step:



lovejc said:


> I agree that he did not read her properly. However, that dog is unstable. If my dog did that (I don't care what situation) to me or anyone I would have her euthanized.


Even if the dog did everything in its power NOT to bite and someone pushed it to that point? That makes no sense at all to me. Holly tried NOT to bite. CM pushed her to it. Does she need work? Of course. Is it HIS type of work? No.



> Bite inhibition... wow. That dog created enough damage that she should not be alive. That is my opinion. People waste so much time on dogs like that, when there are so many awesome well behaved dogs in pounds being killed for no reason at all.


This comment makes me rage beyond all comprehension. All dogs are worth trying to save. No dog is throwaway. I appreciate the fact that the owners wanted to get help--I don't think they called the right person. That dog did what she was pushed to do. I have two well mannered dogs, but I bet you if they were pushed like that, they would lash out to. Is this dog suitable for an uneducated owner? Nope. But you comment that she should be so quickly disposed of is harsh and uncalled for...in my opnion.



> I have a right to my opinion and you have a right to counter my opinion BUT no amount of bleeding hearts will make me change my mind.
> Cesar did not continue trying to pet her or do anything to her and she continued her attack. Cull man biters.


Did you WATCH the same video? He continued to stare her down, do crowd her and to force her to take action. Bleeding heart? You bet. Especially when a dog that was set up for failure from the beginning is being labeled as not worthy of life.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

lovejc said:


> That dog needs to be shot. I don't care who trained it it is a liability and should be euthed ASAP. I feel bad for Cesar...


Unfortunately, lovejc, this dog may very well end up dead..but it's Cesar that deserves to be hurt here. Holly defended herself against increasing threat from Cesar and only after MULTIPLE appeasement signals. CESAR CAUSED THE DOG TO BITE. I don't feel bad for him at all. Nope. His hand must hurt like hell. Oh well. He's lucky that he didn't get in the crotch when he was doing that ridiculous ninja pose. He's a detriment to dog training and to the welfare of the dogs of all people who follow him. 

Good dog trainers and true behaviourists do their best NOT to get bitten and work under threshold KNOWING that issuing a bite can kill a dog. 

Don't feel sorry for Cesar. He's laughing all the way to the bank. People like you, well, not everyone is able to think critically and intelligently about things that are not black and white. Discernment takes practice.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I show German shepherds so I must be an expert trainer.... *gag*


That's right! That's TOTALLY how I feel! *thumbs up*


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

lovejc said:


> No. Valuing an animals life over a humans life is insanity which is what this entire forum is made up of...


CM wasn't mauled to death. He was bitten. Heck, the trainer I was working with tonight was bitten by a chihuahua who was a fear biter. Trainer admitted that the bite was his fault today and that the dog needs work. 

And SHOCKING that there are dog lovers on a dog forum.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

So then just pressure those dogs at the shelters until they bite and they dont die for no reason??? How would it be ok to kill a friendly dog with a food guarding problem? Did you watch the episode? Nice family dog...yes, with a problem and a small child what makes the situation dangerous. But just because CM is a bad trainer that pushed that dog until he bit him, does not make it ok to put a dog like that aseelp.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If that were a baby and that baby was around when she was eating and then did that to a baby's face what would you say?


Why would you let a baby around a resource guarder in the first place? I feed my dogs in their crates or separate rooms, so they can eat their meals in peace.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lovejc said:


> Dogs are pushed much farther and never bite a human. You must be a proud owner of a couple of your own man biters?


Oh, for crying out loud. Grow up. And while you're at it, why don't you Google "ad hominem attack"?

It doesn't matter how far "some" dogs are pushed. THIS dog was scared, and there was NO reason whatsoever for her to push her to the point he did. NONE.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I don't feel bad for him at all. Nope. His hand must hurt like hell.


Unlikely he even needed stitches. I've seen REAL bites (worst one I've seen was from a fear biting Dachshund). Holly thought clearly and only used the force necessary to get him to back off....and even then, he STILL didn't. He went right back to harassing her.

How the man still has a face is beyond me.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Unfortunately, lovejc, this dog may very well end up dead..but it's Cesar that deserves to be hurt here. Holly defended herself against increasing threat from Cesar and only after MULTIPLE appeasement signals. CESAR CAUSED THE DOG TO BITE. I don't feel bad for him at all. Nope. His hand must hurt like hell. Oh well. He's lucky that he didn't get in the crotch when he was doing that ridiculous ninja pose. He's a detriment to dog training and to the welfare of the dogs of all people who follow him.
> 
> Good dog trainers and true behaviourists do their best NOT to get bitten and work under threshold KNOWING that issuing a bite can kill a dog.
> 
> Don't feel sorry for Cesar. He's laughing all the way to the bank. People like you, well, not everyone is able to think critically and intelligently about things that are not black and white. Discernment takes practice.


Well put. Everything he did in that video was all kinds of crazy wrong. 

I was working with a fearful GSD mix last week and made a move that was too quick for her and she snapped at my arm. Didn't break skin, but startled me. You know what I did? I backed off, broke eye contact and backed away while she figured out I wasn't going to hurt her. After that, we were good. Had I pushed this issue (like CM here), I would made the situation worse. 

I just hope that people stop thinking he knows what he is doing sometime soon.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lovejc said:


> No. Valuing an animals life over a humans life is insanity which is what this entire forum is made up of...


What about this situation pits an animal's life against a human's life? Add "strawman" to the list of logical fallacies you need to Google. 



lovejc said:


> If that were a baby and that baby was around when she was eating and then did that to a baby's face what would you say?


What kind of idiot would allow a baby around ANY dog when it was eating?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

lovejc said:


> Physically assaulted. Let me guess you would have clicked the *** out of your pathetic clicker and then given her a bunch of treats...? If that dog would have bit me like that it would be dead.
> If that were a baby and that baby was around when she was eating and then did that to a baby's face what would you say?


What do you call it when he strikes Holly? I don't have a clicker, no, but I have two RGers and two rehabbed formerly seriously fearful dogs. I have been bitten by two of them. Zero of them are dead. And..?

Sorry, I'm talking about a video where someone did something totally mindless was bitten. Not arguing in strawman about fabled babies, who lack physical and mental capacity to do what was done here.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> What kind of idiot would allow a baby around ANY dog when it was eating?


We all know the answer to this is "lots"

I love my man biters <3


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## lovejc (Aug 28, 2012)

Most people here are making comments to me so I will make one more blanket comment. 
Dog forums and dog lovers in general seem to think that Max, Ruby and Fluffy are more important then the general population of HUMAN BEINGS in this world. That is shit.
I am not bleeding heart and I am of the school that if a dog bites hard enough to draw blood then it should be euthanized. I don't care who's opinion differs. 
I love my dog and would do a lot for her but tolerating being bit will not be one of them. 
You can flame away and make your bleeding heart comments but I will not change my mind. 
I have fostered upwards of 220 dogs and been put in situations much worse then what Cesar did and they have NEVER bit. Mixed breeds, pure breds, registered dogs. Not ONCE. 
You can tolerate your sweet fwuffy man biters *cooooo sigh* but I will not. 
Even Cesar would disagree and say don't euthanize. That man won't even have human aggressive pit bulls put down!!! Idiocy.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Ah, so apparently context of bite doesn't matter. Awesome.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lovejc said:


> Dog forums and dog lovers in general seem to think that Max, Ruby and Fluffy are more important then the general population of HUMAN BEINGS in this world. That is ***.


Again, how is this relevant to THIS situation, THIS video, and THIS discussion? 



> You can tolerate your sweet fwuffy man biters *cooooo sigh* but I will not.


Why do you feel the need to insult people who disagree with you and make up lies about their dogs? Because you are so, so secure in your opinions, hmm?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My favorite "man biter" is a successful service dog and was recognized by the Asisstance Dogs Advocacy Project.

Weird....I thought his lot in life was to eat people.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

lovejc said:


> No. Valuing an animals life over a humans life is insanity which is what this entire forum is made up of...


No. I think this forum simply doesn't approve of sadism which CM seems to be preaching as any person with a semblance of sense would see the signals the dog was giving off. There are ways to train a dog with resource guarding to increase its threshold and lower its sensitivity. What CM showed in that video is not one of those ways. It is however a good way to get bit which he demonstrated very well.

One of my dogs has RG and it is manageable after two years of training. Would I trust him with a kid? In a supervised environment, definitely. Though I would never leave a child or infant alone with ANY dog because kids are a lot LESS predictable then dogs are.

Now if the behavior were truly unpredictable on the dog's part then it certainly should be dealt with. However, this dog's behavior is not random aggression and it's asinine to suggest so.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

lovejc said:


> Wow you got me. No I know exactly where I stand. Bite to bleed=dead.


It's a good thing that the true, educated experts disagree with you.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

lovejc said:


> I dont know. I know the dog would be dead before I could find out.


What qualifications do you have to whether a dog lives/dies? Do you believe that people should take the time to rehab dogs with issues or should we just get rid of the defective ones so that the good ones remain? I have a dog with leash frustration, she resource guards from other dogs and she has anxiety. Should I have just thrown her out and got a better one or were her issues worth working on? I am trying to figure out your philosophy. 

In terms of the video--vet's look at it this way. If someone got into MY face and I gave them every opportunity to back off and they didn't, I would retaliate. That is instinct--to protect yourself.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

So you think that if your dog misjudges the tug you have in your hand and accidentally bites you instead, the dog should be euthanized?

Good god, all my dogs would be dead. Would hate to see you at a schutzhund club! The motto there is "If you're not bleeding, you're not training"  (talking about misjudged strikes, scraped knees, etc).


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Xeph said:


> On top of that, that dog showed TREMENDOUS bite inhibition! She bit him more than once, but only ONE bite drew blood. She COULD have chosen to turn that hand into HAMBURGER!
> 
> That is a dog that is SANE and CLEAR HEADED and made every attempt possible to communicate with him that she was uncomfortable! Cesar is a DISGRACE!


this. just this. when he pulled away i was like "thats it???" 

she could have TORN his hand OFF and she didnt. that poor, poor dog. cesar just gets too riled up. I know last week when i was really stressed about being late to a test i hadnt studied for and bubba wouldnt heel walking to the test. out of frustration i popped his leash a few times too many, and i wish someone had been there to film it and show me. bubba wasnt worse for the wear, it just in hindsight was me responding in stress to a stressful situation that he was picking up on. 

that being said, god, just GOD why does he do this to these poor dogs.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lovejc said:


> Wow you got me. No I know exactly where I stand. Bite to bleed=dead.


Pay attention. I didn't say you didn't KNOW where you stand. I implied that you were INSECURE in your position. People who are secure in their opinion don't feel the need to insult other people (or their dogs) just for disagreeing.


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## Salina (Sep 2, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Again, how is this relevant to THIS situation, THIS video, and THIS discussion?
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you feel the need to insult people who disagree with you and make up lies about their dogs? Because you are so, so secure in your opinions, hmm?



:clap2: exactly


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

lovejc said:


> Yes he is such a sadist. He's a crazy brainwashing sadist that beats and strangles dogs.... Oh my goodness. When I started watching cesar I didn't agree with everything he did but I see the absolute love he has for the dogs he deals with.
> I guess maybe if he clicked at the "truly" aggressive dogs he deals with they might be properly trained. Eye rolls


What is your obsession with the clicker?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

am i missing something, or did a forum participant just dissappear?? i cant even see any of his original posts?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Banned most likely


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

So, this is about clickers? It's not about pushing a dog til it bites and then shooting it? Colour me confused...

You have some preconceived ideas about how professionals (CM is not included in that group, btw) work with aggression and behaviour modification. Your preconceptions are wrong and show a distinct lack of understanding of the scientifically backed methods being used. I'm not suprised. Most people who agree with CM and his methods show a similar lack of knowledge and ignorance of dog behaviour and modern training methods. It's like shooting ducks in a barrel, kiddo. You are outgunned and you know it. If you weren't you wouldn't be just throwing insults, at least without backup. I have backup. Come back when you actually have a decent argument to contribute to the discussion.

Dang. Already? LOL


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## Analogdog (Apr 3, 2012)

CM is being a total jerk in this video, getting in this dog's space more than one time, and acting all cocky. He certainly has little idea how to deal with dogs well, and its sad he is on TV. Lets have someone that shows compassion be on TV.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

I watched the video last night :-( makes me so sad that a person like that is on tv. And sadly enough, a show was just launched in my home country which imitates it because ceaser is the hosts idol. She is a vet and a great one and I have even worked with her, but I'd sooner come closer to punching her then talking about dog training.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

kafkabeetle said:


> HOW could he have interpreted that dog's behavior as relaxation?? He's laying down but he's doing lots of whale eye, trying to not make eye contact with him, etc.


What I have always found ironic for a guy who frames everything as dominance/submission is how he doesn't understand calming signals are often a dogs way of showing submission/deference/no desire for challenge or conflict.

For someone who is supposed to know how to communicate to dogs, he knows nothing of how dogs actually communicate. It's like me saying I know how to speak German and then speak Japanese as German and wonder why the native Germans don't understand me.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Rescued said:


> that being said, god, just GOD why does he do this to these poor dogs.


And why are people so...ignorant to think this is a correct way to handle dogs. 

Even if you're a "correction trainer" you don't do this crap - so it doesn't even go to that.


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## Losech (Apr 5, 2011)

http://canineaggression.blogspot.com/2012/09/food-aggression-and-famous-trainer.html

http://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/pushed-too-far/


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

KBLover said:


> And why are people so...ignorant to think this is a correct way to handle dogs.
> 
> Even if you're a "correction trainer" you don't do this crap - so it doesn't even go to that.


I've told this story before on DF (since I'm correction type trainer) of the dog that each morning I would enter kennel and dog would immediately retreat to back of kennel growling etc. 

I would sit at front of kennel my back to the dog on a low portable folding chair while reading a good science fiction book (one of my weaknesses) anyway 2 weeks passed and one day a nose nudged my back and we began a training program. (which we completed) It really wasn't rocket science, it was my fear of being bit that designated the training program with this particular dog.

As usual, I am neutral on CM.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Looks good on him. Too bad it was only his hand and not his face.

Maybe it's just be, but if any trainer actually placed a hand on my dog, it's me they'd be trying to kick off of them. What a scumbag.

Maybe all those animal rights nutjobs should stop worrying about shutting down breeders and dog shows for a while and focus on getting this guy arrested or deported or shot into the sun.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

quote Cesar: "*I didn't see that coming*" 

= understatement of the century :doh:.



Anyone else secretly wish infection sets in, big time ?


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> On top of that, that dog showed TREMENDOUS bite inhibition! She bit him more than once, but only ONE bite drew blood. She COULD have chosen to turn that hand into HAMBURGER!
> 
> That is a dog that is SANE and CLEAR HEADED and made every attempt possible to communicate with him that she was uncomfortable! Cesar is a DISGRACE!


^^^ This! I'm no trainer, I have easy dogs but even I could see all the warnings Holly was throwing his way


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>>> I would sit at front of kennel my back to the dog on a low portable folding chair 
This is the same method that Dunbar recommends... and he's a positive trainer... Did you switch 

I agree with CM - if I were blind to Calming signals and normal dog behaviors, I wouldn't have seen it coming either... of course, I'm not going to grab ANY dog's nose. My own dog would not react badly, but that's one of our signals to start wrestling, b/c he doesn't like it.

I think CM is very lucky that he has a 'friendly' and forgiving Lab. I think the Lab held on to say, "I don't think you're getting it." Because I think the Lab could've crushed bones and dropped the hand as quickly as a snap. After each encounter, the Lab is clearly 'upset'. But the other very blatant point that CM doesn't get is that after each training event that the Lab presents to CM (who doesn't seem to get it ), the attack stops completely. The dog is not 'people' aggressive. I believe that the dog might have accepted gentler, non-threatening petting. And, if CM hadn't loomed over the dog, maybe dropping to a knee, the dog might have come over tentatively. 

A big problem is that CM does not respect a growl and back-off, instead elevating the confrontations. 

If the 'gratuitous' violence were editted, I think this would be a terrific Calming Signals training video - Don't do these things ... ever!


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

If you choose to ignore a dogs "whispers", they're going to "yell" (bite). Its not rocket science, its not training, its communicating with another species in the only way they know how. 

We've never had an issue with food, I (or the girls with supervision) place the bowl on the floor, release and leave. Basically my rule here is if I gave the item, its his. I wouldnt have given it if I didnt know it was safe so there is no need for me to take it away. Thankfully Bus has never been big on stealing things he shouldnt have. Even so, we do have a bit of an issue with chewies. He leaves no doubt that he's uncomfortable being approached while he has them (silently stiffens and lifts his lips). It goes back to that very basic rule (I gave it, its safe, leave him the heck alone). I dont give chewies when the kids are around (he gets them when they're in bed or at school), never when guests are here/expected and I dont give them anytime I can predict I'll need to leave before he's done chewing. If it happens I have to remove it, I remove HIM...lure with a treat (freeze dried beef liver is his biggest weakness). 

Under the right (wrong) circumstances any dog will bite. Buster is one of the sweetest, most gentle dogs Ive ever known. He's a very tolerant dog but even he has his limits. We had an incident where he was growling at my teenage daughter anytime she went to move him. It wasnt a matter of where he was, he wasnt guarding any particular spot, but she would approach when he was comfortable and take him by the collar to move him. He growled to let her know he was uncomfortable. If she had continued to pressure him I have no doubt he would have eventually "yelled" (bitten). Instead she backed off and I had the chance to teach all 4 girls some better options for handling Bus (words, treats, play invitation/toys). 1 1/2+ years later the relationship between my teenager and Buster is stronger than ever. Buster learned a valuable lesson in all of this, too. His "whispers" will be heard. We may not "hear" him right away (I am positive there were some missed communications way before he growled) but we will always be trying to "listen" to what he's telling us.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> As usual, I am neutral on CM.


I can't be neutral to someone to antagonizes a dog sending clear signals to back off, then act like the dog did something wrong when it keeps escalating signals until it gets physical, then, of course, it's the dog's fault again when it's the human that wasn't "listening" to the dog. 

You didn't aggress on this dog, try to "dominate" the dog. You turned your back on the dog (calming signal, non-threatening) and constantly presented this image to the dog and made yourself part of his environment. 

I basically did the same thing with Wally. I didn't worry about being bitten, but I also didn't force myself on him. CM forces himself on a fearful dog trying to DISengage and then acts like the dog is "dominating" him. 

I just can't be neutral to that. I wouldn't want anyone doing that to Wally.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LuvMyAngels said:


> If you choose to ignore a dogs "whispers", they're going to "yell" (bite). Its not rocket science, its not training,* its communicating with another species in the only way they know how*.


And you can do it while still training the dog. In fact, it often helps training proceed quicker, imo.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> >>> I would sit at front of kennel my back to the dog on a low portable folding chair
> This is the same method that Dunbar recommends... and he's a positive trainer... Did you switch


No, but it's a no-brainer that should be in any trainer's tool bag regardless of methods used. Remember I was here before Ian Dunbar and I was even starting 10/12 week old bird dog puppies in the field. (I think even before he was published) You drive down a gravel road early in the morning and see pheasants out getting their gravel, you drive up to the area, the pheasants run off and you put a young puppy down in that wild bird scent left behind and just watch the fun. Yes that is also training because you have pup in right area and the little puppy's mind trapdoors are flopping open. You are building a future bird dog. 



> I just can't be neutral to that. I wouldn't want anyone doing that to Wally.


I would not want Wally in that predicament either. 

As far as CM he's just a person I've seen on TV and I don't get to involved with that stuff. Or maybe it's too many trainers seen through the years. Good, Bad and the Ugly so to speak.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Being here before Ian Dunbar doesn't make you right... especially since he proved you wrong.

How someone can be neutral to blatant animal abuse is beyond me, but in this case I guess it's not too surprising.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TorachiKatashi said:


> Being here before Ian Dunbar doesn't make you right... especially since he proved you wrong.
> 
> How someone can be neutral to blatant animal abuse is beyond me, but in this case I guess it's not too surprising.


I'm sorry as I don't have a clue as to how Ian Dunbar proved me wrong. Please enlighten me. Also what is that I'm not right about,
I actually never claim anything I do is right, I just say it's what I do.

I never said I was neutral to blatant animal abuse, just neutral to a TV star. No more, no less.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Wvasko doesn't need me to explain him, but I think I understand his POV.

I've made the comparison to Mike Rowe in Dirty Jobs - except I find Mike pretty entertaining.

They both do stuff on TV that I would never do and never suggest ANYBODY do. No sane person would ever use either one as an example of how to get thorugh your day. 

What makes Cesar a potential hazard is that some people DO take him seriously. Still, I think that's more on the viewer - who ignores all the common sense disclaimers - than it is on Cesar.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> >>> I would sit at front of kennel my back to the dog on a low portable folding chair
> This is the same method that Dunbar recommends... and he's a positive trainer... Did you switch


That doesnt sound positive or negative... just good common sense. Dog is terrified, wait until dog is more comfortable before doing anything else. I do think CM has some good points, the calm assertive mindset (its good to remind yourself the dog feeds off your energy), exercise discipline affection (most people reverse those ideas).

Just a couple months ago I watched a lot of DW before getting Pete, I'd never even heard of another dog trainer or considered that there were different philosophies, I think sometimes we forget that people just don't have a frame of reference for most of this stuff. I really liked it at the time... watching it again I've learned a lot and see it with new eyes, doesn't look like such a good idea to me now. I do think RG is a problem, I would not feel comfortable just managing that behaviour but I wouldnt handle it like that.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> That doesnt sound positive or negative... just good common sense.


Yes, that's kinda what I thought at the time I was doing it. Dog had teeth, why put anything I like into teeth area.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

i dont think Dunbar subscribes to any 'method' he just is really good at 'dogspeak' & knows how to comunicate & work with dogs without intimidating them or stressing them out. i will admit to using the snapping fingers & body blocking to stop a dog who is harassing another, i have one here that likes to pick on my folks 12 yr old JRT when all the dogs are playing, she doesnt want to join in, she just want to make trouble for the other dogs playing away from hr minding their own business, she crouches down & ambushes them. so i snap my fingers at her & use body blocking to send her away to lie down. after a couple of time of this she doesnt do it anymore & its getting less frequent. i dont use my voice, yell or stand over her until she cringes like Junior did when he went for the ball. she just goes away & lies down. 

same goes for any of the other dogs, they can play & such but (espscially Josefina) if any of them put their teeth on another dog & make them yelp, they get a time out & dont get to be part of the fun anymore.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

lovejc said:


> Most people here are making comments to me so I will make one more blanket comment.
> Dog forums and dog lovers in general seem to think that Max, Ruby and Fluffy are more important then the general population of HUMAN BEINGS in this world. That is shit.
> I am not bleeding heart and I am of the school that if a dog bites hard enough to draw blood then it should be euthanized. I don't care who's opinion differs.
> I love my dog and would do a lot for her but tolerating being bit will not be one of them.
> ...


I feel so sorry for this person's dog. Yesterday she was expressing concern that her puppy bit her son on the head when he was crawling at the dog and playing rough with her. Good thing there wasn't a scratch (blood) or she'd have surely killed the puppy. And, if she continues to allow this sort of inapproriate, rough play, it's only a matter of time till she kills this one and gets another.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Xeph said:


> On top of that, that dog showed TREMENDOUS bite inhibition! She bit him more than once, but only ONE bite drew blood. She COULD have chosen to turn that hand into HAMBURGER!
> 
> That is a dog that is SANE and CLEAR HEADED and made every attempt possible to communicate with him that she was uncomfortable! Cesar is a DISGRACE!


ABSO-FRICKEN-LUTELY! First thig I thought when that dog went for him is how restrained she was. She impressed me a lot, and shows that she CAN be rehabbed, IF it is done the right way! She didn't want to bite him, and tried to tell him that. He didn't listen, so she felt she had no other choice. Poor girl!


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Xeph said:


> So you think that if your dog misjudges the tug you have in your hand and accidentally bites you instead, the dog should be euthanized?
> 
> Good god, all my dogs would be dead. Would hate to see you at a schutzhund club! The motto there is "If you're not bleeding, you're not training"  (talking about misjudged strikes, scraped knees, etc).


No dog would ever make it past puppyhood! I know my little guy has done his share of "nibbling!"


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

This video was posted in response. See, you don't need to provoke aggression to change it! Granted this dog didn't have near the level of aggression as "Holly" was showing but regardless, counter-conditioning and rewarding for an alternate behavior can be used safely and is highly effective.


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## MusherChic (Nov 6, 2010)

I'm waiting for the video to load on my stupidly slow dial-up internet... :smash:

I can only imagine though, with what people have said on this thread and from what I've seen from Ceasar Millan in the past, what kind of a disaster took place. :doh:

Omg, I finally watched the video. He handled that so poorly it makes my head hurt. I'm surprised he hasn't been seriously injured the way he handles situations like that. He's surely asking for it...and it would be 100% his fault.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> As far as CM he's just a person I've seen on TV and I don't get to involved with that stuff. Or maybe it's too many trainers seen through the years. Good, Bad and the Ugly so to speak.



Maybe - but, to me, bad handling is bad, not neutral. And the person using the bad handling is a bad handler - not a neutral one.

Neutral is the difference between you and me in our 'standard' training methods. I use shaping, you don't, that's neutral. We both (assuming I had your experience) could help/develop excellent dogs and help people with their problems.



RonE said:


> What makes Cesar a potential hazard is that some people DO take him seriously. Still, I think that's more on the viewer - who ignores all the common sense disclaimers - than it is on Cesar.


That doesn't make what he does in this video any better. It's true that people should use common sense, but how does that make what he does to that dog/fearful dogs any better or more correct/helpful to the dog?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Maybe - but, to me, bad handling is bad, not neutral. And the person using the bad handling is a bad handler - not a neutral one.


Well that's where I differ because I have seen trainers in real life with my own eyes on the trainer not on a TV or youtube video that make CM look like Mother Theresa.

I also have met good dog trainers that were bad competition handlers and the opposite, but I'm probably using the handler word differently than you.

Suppose I do a complete change and start beating up CM's training program, hmmmm will it change anything or save any dogs. 

Through the years I have been this forum if somebody asked about getting a trainer I have always had the same answers, references, references, references and the statement that there are many trainers out in the world that should not be allowed near a dog lead let alone a real live dog.



> I use shaping, you don't


I'm surprised that you would think "shaping" is not in my tool bag.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Pawzk9 said:


> Sometimes when you aggress a dog they aggress back.


You would think that was common sense but...

I found this out one day when I was young. My parents were pretty old school and I learned you needed to teach the dog you were the boss. Nikki was a resource guarder. I thought I needed to bully her into letting me take her food. I loomed over her and she growled. Grabbed her treat. She air snapped. Pushed her back. She bit me. Lesson learned. 

Really, he is asking for it. The dog throws calming signal after calming signal. Warning after warning. CM doesn't back off, instead he escalates things and does not back off of the dog. He just keeps pushing her and pushing her then finally puts his hand on the dog's muzzle and the dog snaps. I think you could substitute that dog with MANY dogs and the end result would be a bite.

It is not the dog's fault it escalated to where it did.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Just curious, does anyone know what happened to the dog after the taping. Watching the video gave me the creeps. If anyone did that to one of my dogs, they would be gone in an instant. I just don't get why this guy has so many supporters.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

So Cavalier said:


> Just curious, does anyone know what happened to the dog after the taping. Watching the video gave me the creeps. If anyone did that to one of my dogs, they would be gone in an instant. I just don't get why this guy has so many supporters.


I believe Cesar now has her.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Suppose I do a complete change and start beating up CM's training program, hmmmm will it change anything or save any dogs.


Well, someone asked me if I used CM's methods on Wally to get him over his fear issues because they have a fearful dog. I certainly wasn't neutral or indifferent towards his methods. So, perhaps I did change the fate of that dog by suggesting ways, books, sites, and what I did try with Wally that would at the least not get the dog in position to where he's going to pushed so far to where he feels like the need to bite, which would lead to a world of issues outside the stylized TV world.

But, even if I didn't, there are lots of things I can't rid the world of, both in the human and canine worlds, that doesn't mean I'm neutral towards them. 




wvasko said:


> I'm surprised that you would think "shaping" is not in my tool bag.


Why did you put shaping in quotes?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well 2 things, 1. being neutral means no bad mouth and no referral. 2. You and I are totally coming from different directions in the world of dogs and humans.

Quotes was just so it would stand out a bit, no more, no less. It just surprised me that you would think shaping was something I had never used in training. Perhaps quotes not used properly, remember high school dropout.

Our dumpee dog Pierce is being shaped daily to change his wild as the pure driven snow attitude without aversives that would be used on a 30 to 45 day dog here and then sent home with owner. Time is a marvelous, luxurious weapon.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I honestly don't understand why he frequently points and waves his hands in dog's faces . Perhaps gesticulation is his way of communicating with humans, but it doesn't seem to go over too well with the dogs.

Also, seems as though hands and feet are his perpetual tools of choice. Unless I'm mistaken, he appears to 'kick' the dog immediately after the bite. Personally, I prefer to minimize these types of extraneous body language, and 'train with the brain' instead --- apparently in this case CM left his brain out of the equation, entirely.


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## Deaf Dogs (May 28, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> I honestly don't understand why he frequently points and waves his hands in dog's faces . Perhaps gesticulation is his way of communicating with humans, but it doesn't seem to go over too well with the dogs.
> 
> Also, seems as though hands and feet are his perpetual tools of choice. Unless I'm mistaken, he appears to 'kick' the dog immediately after the bite. Personally, I prefer to minimize these types of extraneous body language, and 'train with the brain' instead --- *apparently in this case CM left his brain out of the equation, entirely.*


Seems to have eh?:drama:


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Wow, that was REALLY bad. I have to say I had always been neutral on CM in the past. I started out really liking him and his show in the beginning of dog ownership... but I never used any of his methods on Jackson because I just never needed to, he never needed them. Except for the door thing -- I never let him out the door before me, which actually came in handy because it taught him to never rush the door or go out ahead of me which is nice. I also always applied lots of exercise. But other than that, no. However once I learned another method, I started watching the show and being like "ugh, why did he do that... he could've done this...?" etc etc.

Anyways I was feeling like Cesar was changing a bit... the last episodes that I caught he had seemed much more on the "positive" side (for him anyways) than ever before and I was happy. I felt like he was changing and evolving and doing better. I even watched one episode where he got the dog into agility with a local trainer. 

But seeing THIS... this was absolutely the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen. Worst way EVER. If someone approached Jackson like that, he would NEVER like you. He's never bitten anyone or shown any aggression, but your darn well right he would if a guy came up to him like that. That is so ridiculous. 

How in the world did the dog end up with Cesar? Did they really give him up for RG, or were there other issues?

Yeah, completely utterly disgusted with Cesar.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Our dumpee dog Pierce is being shaped daily to change his wild as the pure driven snow attitude without aversives that would be used on a 30 to 45 day dog here and then sent home with owner. Time is a marvelous, luxurious weapon.


Wvasko, I'd love to hear more about this. I was sort of under the impression that you were using aversives on Pierce as with other dogs you've trained. Are you using a clicker with him? 

My parents have a bird dog (Korthals Griffon) and took him to a "natural ability" trial when he was young. He flushed the birds and failed the test, and then my dad realized that all the other trainers were using electronic collars on their puppies. "Natural," indeed.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

hamandeggs said:


> Wvasko, I'd love to hear more about this. I was sort of under the impression that you were using aversives on Pierce as with other dogs you've trained. Are you using a clicker with him?
> 
> My parents have a bird dog (Korthals Griffon) and took him to a "natural ability" trial when he was young. He flushed the birds and failed the test, and then my dad realized that all the other trainers were using electronic collars on their puppies. "Natural," indeed.


Wild, a bamboo pole, fishing line and a bird wing, this can in most cases brings out pointing instinct, the wing lying on the ground and jiggled to get pup's interest and if he approaches to catch wing it's jerked out of his reach to land in different area. this repeated till pup decides to stalk wing instead of flushing and pretty soon a pointing program instinctively starts. I started pups very young (before birds) a stand or in bird dog language a Whoa. Then when pups did start some flash pointing using the whoa word as approaching actually helped because they knew whoa meant stand. No aversives used in this kind of work cause you want to bring out bird ability not crush it. 

No clicker with Pierce just voice.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Wow, that was REALLY bad. I have to say I had always been neutral on CM in the past. I started out really liking him and his show in the beginning of dog ownership... but I never used any of his methods on Jackson because I just never needed to, he never needed them. Except for the door thing -- I never let him out the door before me, which actually came in handy because it taught him to never rush the door or go out ahead of me which is nice. I also always applied lots of exercise. But other than that, no. However once I learned another method, I started watching the show and being like "ugh, why did he do that... he could've done this...?" etc etc.
> 
> Anyways I was feeling like Cesar was changing a bit... the last episodes that I caught he had seemed much more on the "positive" side (for him anyways) than ever before and I was happy. I felt like he was changing and evolving and doing better. I even watched one episode where he got the dog into agility with a local trainer.
> 
> ...


Yeah me too, i was so hoping & was ready to believe that he had or was at least TRYING do change, the most i had seen him use is gestures & body blocking in the more recent eps & the agility ep was was actually informative to the average dog owner IMO. 

But this last episode... i lost every inkling of respect i might have had for the man & my trust that he was trying to change was broken & I dont know if i can come back from that (yes i know its a TV show & you cant take to heart what you see onTV, but i like to give a guy cred & the benefit of the doubt for trying to change) . I'm not going to bash the guy outright, I'm not a 'hater' of him, but I do express my distain for the wat he handles situations, IMO he got what he deserved & iff that had happened to me (& it has... & its always been my fault) I would be saying the same thing.

Yeah they were having a kid or some crap like that... why is it always standard precedure to dump your dog off for minor behavorial issues (or even if they HAVE none & are just being a dog???) when ppl find out they are having a kid??? what about the dog, doesnt he matter?


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Yeah me too, i was so hoping & was ready to believe that he had or was at least TRYING do change, the most i had seen him use is gestures & body blocking in the more recent eps & the agility ep was was actually informative to the average dog owner IMO.
> 
> But this last episode... i lost every inkling of respect i might have had for the man & my trust that he was trying to change was broken & I dont know if i can come back from that (yes i know its a TV show & you cant take to heart what you see onTV, but i like to give a guy cred & the benefit of the doubt for trying to change) . I'm not going to bash the guy outright, I'm not a 'hater' of him, but I do express my distain for the wat he handles situations, IMO he got what he deserved & iff that had happened to me (& it has... & its always been my fault) I would be saying the same thing.
> 
> Yeah they were having a kid or some crap like that... why is it always standard precedure to dump your dog off for minor behavorial issues (or even if they HAVE none & are just being a dog???) when ppl find out they are having a kid??? what about the dog, doesnt he matter?


IMO ... I believe he has changed ... for the worst. I cannot help but think that look on his face was anything other than pure hatred .... 

I also believe there are many many people who are dog "wanters" and not dog "lovers" ..........


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> Yeah they were having a kid or some crap like that... why is it always standard precedure to dump your dog off for minor behavorial issues (or even if they HAVE none & are just being a dog???) when ppl find out they are having a kid??? what about the dog, doesnt he matter?


Well, to their credit, they recognized a problem and tried to get help from who I'm sure *to their knowledge* was like the most respected trainer out there. And that trainer made things worse. Seems like plenty of people would like to keep their badly behaved dogs when they have kids, but the kid comes first (doesn't mean the dog's worth nothing) and people around them are just full of bad advice that leads them to think the situation is unworkable. To me, it's more than just an individual problem. You make decisions based on what you know, and what you know comes from who you've been led to believe is the right person to ask. 

When I was a kid we had a JRT that exhibited fear aggression. He bit my dad once in a situation similar to the CM video, and bit my brother once (seemingly) unprovoked. My parents hired a trainer and it was really expensive. We instituted the rules this trainer suggested (which were mostly meaningless dominance based stuff like "don't let him walk out the door before you" and "don't rub his belly, because he's trying to control you") but the problems remained. My parents got rid of that dog because he was a safety issue and they didn't know how to fix him. The training made it sound hopeless. For a long time, I hated him for making that decision, but looking bad I understand that it wasn't just his failing. Everyone who was supposed to be teaching us the right way to handle the situation failed *us*.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

which is why i dont have kids, because i love my dogs too much to put them on the back burner... that & i have like... no maternial instincts LOL

i miss the days where if a dog bit a kid (usually the kid's fault... you know kids being kids) the KID was the one that wwas scolded, now its the dog that gets dumped off at the shelter to be euthed... a sad ssad world we live in


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Abbylynn said:


> IMO ... I believe he has changed ... for the worst. I cannot help but think that look on his face was anything other than pure hatred ....


Yes, this! He looked absolutely furious. You can even see it in the Youtube still. It felt like he was doing the whole thing just to make a scene for the cameras, at the expense of this poor dog. The very first thing any trainer should know is that the second you get frustrated or angry at the dog, you should STOP. Back it off in the least harmful way possible. Just ugh.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> i miss the days where if a dog bit a kid (usually the kid's fault... you know kids being kids) the KID was the one that wwas scolded, now its the dog that gets dumped off at the shelter to be euthed... a sad ssad world we live in


I think it's fair to say that both the child and the dog could use some schooling if biting is happening.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

hamandeggs said:


> Yes, this! He looked absolutely furious. You can even see it in the Youtube still. It felt like he was doing the whole thing just to make a scene for the cameras, at the expense of this poor dog. The very first thing any trainer should know is that the second you get frustrated or angry at the dog, you should STOP. Back it off in the least harmful way possible. Just ugh.


i know it was like, I'm gonna show YOU! a bully's expression if i ever saw one, then after he got bit he had an even worse expression like 'how dare you make me look bad!'


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I believe Cesar now has her.


That's sort of horrifying. Where'd you hear this from? The only thing I found was that this is a very recent episode.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Canyx said:


> That's sort of horrifying. Where'd you hear this from? The only thing I found was that this is a very recent episode.


Guh, I have to leave for work and I couldn't track down the video I was thinking of. I saw a post on reddit about this where Cesar declared the dog was not safe and took her with him. There is a video update of his "work" with her after he took her that is equally depressing as this video.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Guh, I have to leave for work and I couldn't track down the video I was thinking of. I saw a post on reddit about this where Cesar declared the dog was not safe and took her with him. There is a video update of his "work" with her after he took her that is equally depressing as this video.


Blimey. Well if you ever find it I would still be interested in seeing it 
I wonder what would happen if a REAL behaviorist were to contact this couple and, without the Caesar bashing, explained to them why this method is dangerous and that many other behaviorists out there would be able to fix this in a positive way...


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

yeah he had this rubber hand to 'test' her instead of his own & as soon as he pulled it out she was outta there, gee... i wonder hoe he achieved that  so sad, it didnt need to be like that


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Yeah they were having a kid or some crap like that... why is it always standard precedure to dump your dog off for minor behavorial issues (or even if they HAVE none & are just being a dog???) when ppl find out they are having a kid??? what about the dog, doesnt he matter?


Having a kid is crap? Honestly, resource guarding and toddlers can be a dangerous combination if it's not addressed correctly (and this certainly wasn't how you fix RG - it was how you make it worse. Resource guarding is a behavior that can usually be successfully modified, but it does have a genetic component and in some dogs can approach OCD. There are some dogs who will never be truly safe around small children - kids are quick to grab at stuff, unable to read warning signals (unlike CM where it's inexcusable to be so stupid) and right at face level. Still, I don't think going to live with CM and being daily subjected to this kind of abuse is any answer for this poor dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I found it, TWAB:






You see Holly at around 2:15. Cesar won't let the poor thing eat her food without jerking her around. You can also see his pit going belly-up. It's sad to see how nervous that dog is and how much it wants to appease Cesar.

(You also get to hear some crap about how when dogs eat out of a bowl, the fact that their feet are on either side of the bowl makes them dominant.)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> (You also get to hear some crap about how when dogs eat out of a bowl, the fact that their feet are on either side of the bowl makes them dominant.)


That's a new one.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> I found it, TWAB:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. What is he even trying to teach this dog here? I don't even.
2. The fact that Holly will still go anywhere near him is a testament to that dog's good temperament. Of course she is still sending calming signals at him left and right to no avail, but she seems remarkably stable given what she's gone through. 
3. What is with the obsession with messing with dogs when they're trying to eat? Just let the dog eat in peace. Ugh.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Why do people sneer about positive training for resource guarding and aggression? It works.

Kabota RG'd the first marrow bone I gave him. After 3 days of throwing treats at him, he was done RG'ing. Completely. I can touch the bone in his mouth and he just looks up to see what wonderful treat he's getting now.

Muggsy was the most dog aggressive dog possible. He went through a glass window to attack a tiny puppy- and the shards of glass sticking out of his face didn't slow him down one bit. (What did was the owner snatching up the puppy and shoving it under her coat. Muggsy would not attack people.) It took a year, but for the next 10 years, our walks were nice and calm.

Positive training works. It's that simple.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I just want to adopt his fluffy white dog that keeps trying to stay out of his way and behave before it gets "alpha rolled" .... or something worse.  That poor Pit doesn't want to be any where in the vicinity. Poor thing kept trying to appease him and was cowering all the while It was walking. So sad.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> Having a kid is crap? Honestly, resource guarding and toddlers can be a dangerous combination if it's not addressed correctly (and this certainly wasn't how you fix RG - it was how you make it worse. Resource guarding is a behavior that can usually be successfully modified, but it does have a genetic component and in some dogs can approach OCD. There are some dogs who will never be truly safe around small children - kids are quick to grab at stuff, unable to read warning signals (unlike CM where it's inexcusable to be so stupid) and right at face level. Still, I don't think going to live with CM and being daily subjected to this kind of abuse is any answer for this poor dog.


Its not just that, he also runs i guess a kind of an adoption center of sorts where he adopts dogs out to the 'right' home (make one wonder how what he baises THAT decision on :/), i really am afraid for anyone who gets this dog or any of his dogs he has rehabbed... who will likely continue the same methods per his horrible advice, thus prolly causing fallout.

its sad that he takes most of the fun out of owning a dog ... for owner & dog.

& yes having a kid is a crap reason for getting rid of a dog without even trying, most say CM is their last resort... but most had only tried at home training & not a true professional. i think they choose CM because they know if they get used on the show its no charge or something like that.


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## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

I love ow them made the growls louder/ more fake sounding XD


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> & yes having a kid is a crap reason for getting rid of a dog without even trying, most say CM is their last resort... but most had only tried at home training & not a true professional. i think they choose CM because they know if they get used on the show its no charge or something like that.


Yes, but the average person does not have the knowledge to distinguish between a true professional and a television personality. Before I became a member of this forum, I thought Cesar was a good trainer. I didn't know any better. I didn't know what calming signals were, I didn't know about clicker training or operant/classical conditioning and I only had the foggiest idea on how to read a dog's body language with any accuracy. And most people start out *just like I did*.

People can only make decisions based on the information they have at their disposal, and usually that points to trusting someone like Cesar, who *seems* to rehab tons of dogs and have a lot of skill. I will never fault someone for not knowing what they do not know. I will only ever get upset at someone for doing something harmful when they know better, or ignoring useful advice. I have no doubt that people who end up on Cesar's show have the best of intentions, whether or not the training is free (I personally don't know if it is or not). It's a matter of being misled by a person they have been told they can and should trust.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Having a kid is a crap reason to get rid of a dog with no issues. Having a kid is a crap reason to get rid of a dog with reasonably easily manageable issues. However, since the kid is going to be in the house for 18 years, and at least 5-6 of them before the kid has a brain, a dog who would not be trustworthy with the child and dog interactions being supervised (and resource guarding, if it goes beyond VERY few resources) and a child is a damned good reason to rehome the dog. BEFORE it has a bite history, that will result in it being *dead*, depending on laws and/or the kid being taken by cps for the parents refusing to keep their kids safe from a known danger in the home.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> I found it, TWAB:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hey is it me or does CM look like... seriously possessed in the freeze frame before you click 'play' on the vid cranastic posted? Yikes *_*


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

He made a pretty big deal about the paws on each side of the bowl, but her paws weren't on each side of the bowl, they were back, I'm confused. 

And that poor fluffy white dog "Come get some affection." I actually flinched when he touched that dog, that was some harsh affection!


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## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

Those pore dogs are afraid of him 

I want a relation ship not a dictatorship


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hamandeggs said:


> 1. What is he even trying to teach this dog here? I don't even.
> 2. The fact that Holly will still go anywhere near him is a testament to that dog's good temperament. Of course she is still sending calming signals at him left and right to no avail, but she seems remarkably stable given what she's gone through.
> 3. What is with the obsession with messing with dogs when they're trying to eat? Just let the dog eat in peace. Ugh.



Interesting that she allows the Wheaton to share the bowl with her. Man those are some shut down dogs - especially the blue Pittie


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Interesting that she allows the Wheaton to share the bowl with her.


I was just going to say the same thing!
I don't approve of this method at all, but I gotta say... Can someone explain a "shut down" dog to me? Because in my mind a shut down dog is the pit at that point went it rolled over as Caesar approached it, and the point where the wheaton was hunched in the corner when the other dogs got 'affection.' But I always thought shut down dogs were like that all the time... I was surprised to see that dogs like Holly were still willing to _play_ with him instead of just slinking away and cowering.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Canyx said:


> Blimey. Well if you ever find it I would still be interested in seeing it
> I wonder what would happen if a REAL behaviorist were to contact this couple and, without the Caesar bashing, explained to them why this method is dangerous and that many other behaviorists out there would be able to fix this in a positive way...


Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXE-fwI0SWU&feature=share

It starts at about 1:50, and it's depressing immediately. Junior honestly makes me so sad.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Canyx said:


> I was just going to say the same thing!
> I don't approve of this method at all, but I gotta say... Can someone explain a "shut down" dog to me? Because in my mind a shut down dog is the pit at that point went it rolled over as Caesar approached it, and the point where the wheaton was hunched in the corner when the other dogs got 'affection.' But I always thought shut down dogs were like that all the time... I was surprised to see that dogs like Holly were still willing to _play_ with him instead of just slinking away and cowering.


 To me a "shut down" dog is a dog that has basically given up. It doesn't want to try anything or offer any kind of behavior, usually for fear of being corrected. Better to cower and try to appease than offer the wrong behavior. Dogs can have moments where they "shut down" then bounce back. Bounce back time varies a lot by dog. Some dogs come right back, others take several minutes or longer. It can happen in training when too strong of a correction (or *any* correction to a soft dog) is given. I haven't personally seen any dog completely stuck in a shut down mode but I'm sure they exist.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> I found it, TWAB:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whoops should have read ahead!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Sibe said:


> To me a "shut down" dog is a dog that has basically given up. It doesn't want to try anything or offer any kind of behavior, usually for fear of being corrected. Better to cower and try to appease than offer the wrong behavior. Dogs can have moments where they "shut down" then bounce back. Bounce back time varies a lot by dog. Some dogs come right back, others take several minutes or longer. It can happen in training when too strong of a correction (or *any* correction to a soft dog) is given. I haven't personally seen any dog completely stuck in a shut down mode but I'm sure they exist.


Okay, I agree with everything here. But then it seems that Caesar's dogs shut down when he is reprimanding them, but otherwise they are more-or-less (to my inexperienced eyes perhaps) astonishingly normal. Again, I am not a fan of his methods at all. I agree with everything negative said about him barring the ones that are just ranty and imply he is such a horrible human being he should just go in a hole and rot. I think it is extremely dangerous that this show is so popular and so many average owners believe in his techniques.
But so far I have kept my opinions to myself because I am still trying to figure out if the ends justify the means; if he 'fixes' a dog in his own way so that a family doesn't give up on it and take it to the shelter. When I heard from TWAB that Holly had gone to his house, for some reason my mind pictured her completely shut down, and in a way I was surprised not to see that.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

kafkabeetle said:


> Yes, but the average person does not have the knowledge to distinguish between a true professional and a television personality. Before I became a member of this forum, I thought Cesar was a good trainer. I didn't know any better. I didn't know what calming signals were, I didn't know about clicker training or operant/classical conditioning and I only had the foggiest idea on how to read a dog's body language with any accuracy. And most people start out *just like I did*.


I don't know - I think I'm as average as the next guy. I didn't know any of that stuff either, of course, first time taking care of a dog and such. Never heard of his breed (since they weren't on a dog show). Calming signals was like the greatest revelation ever when I first learned about them. I guess I never even thought to go Google up CM stuff or search for his books. I can't tell you why because, of course, I had no idea that what he was doing wasn't right, etc. Even in all my info and book reading overload, CM entered the picture. 

Got lucky I guess?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> I am still trying to figure out if the ends justify the means; if he 'fixes' a dog in his own way so that a family doesn't give up on it and take it to the shelter.


I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately, myself. Not about Caesar in particular, but about a (semi)local 'send your dog to us for 6 weeks, we give 'em back trained' places. They get results, but they get them with a shock collar and a lot of rough methods. I can't come to a clear decision, to be honest. I don't want to see a dog put down. I can't really blame owners who, at the end of their rope, seek help and find these people instead of a trainer I'd be more comfortable with. By the same token - I would probably at least think seriously about putting my own dogs down before utilizing that place (or Caesar), if I existed in some magical world where those were my only two options. 

Which means, basically, I still don't know.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Canyx said:


> Okay, I agree with everything here. But then it seems that Caesar's dogs shut down when he is reprimanding them, but otherwise they are more-or-less (to my inexperienced eyes perhaps) astonishingly normal. Again, I am not a fan of his methods at all. I agree with everything negative said about him barring the ones that are just ranty and imply he is such a horrible human being he should just go in a hole and rot. I think it is extremely dangerous that this show is so popular and so many average owners believe in his techniques.
> But so far I have kept my opinions to myself because I am still trying to figure out if the ends justify the means; if he 'fixes' a dog in his own way so that a family doesn't give up on it and take it to the shelter. When I heard from TWAB that Holly had gone to his house, for some reason my mind pictured her completely shut down, and in a way I was surprised not to see that.


 Exactly.. they are fine until he comes near them, then they often are avoiding him and offering appeasement behaviors. If he moves toward one, it crouches, head lowered, ears back, tail down, might look away from him. These dogs are scared of him, or at least nervous, and don't want to do anything for fear of being punished.

These dogs can be "fixed" using other methods that don't harm the dog psychologically. CM uses dominance and fear. Usually dogs are taught to change their behavior. Instead of growling when a person comes near the food bowl, look up and get a treat. The result is the same but the dog isn't taught to be wary of the human, but rather to trust the human.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I've been doing a lot of thinking about this lately, myself. Not about Caesar in particular, but about a (semi)local 'send your dog to us for 6 weeks, we give 'em back trained' places. They get results, but they get them with a shock collar and a lot of rough methods. I can't come to a clear decision, to be honest. I don't want to see a dog put down. I can't really blame owners who, at the end of their rope, seek help and find these people instead of a trainer I'd be more comfortable with. By the same token - I would probably at least think seriously about putting my own dogs down before utilizing that place (or Caesar), if I existed in some magical world where those were my only two options.
> 
> Which means, basically, I still don't know.


Same here. One specific example I can give is I would never use shock collars on my dog(s) for so many reasons. But I am not against the proper use of them. I would rather see a dog shock-collar trained to have a great recall, as opposed to a dog not allowed to run because a responsible owner knowing it can't be trusted off leash, or a run over dog because of an irresponsible owner. Of course, I would most prefer to see an owner working patiently with said dog on a long line. But I feel like the proportion of owners who do that are comparatively low.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Sibe said:


> Exactly.. they are fine until he comes near them, then they often are avoiding him and offering appeasement behaviors.


Okay, just watched it again and I get what you mean. Like when Junior comes near him tail wagging (low) after he belly rolled, but he was licking his lips the whole way.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I don't know - I think I'm as average as the next guy. I didn't know any of that stuff either, of course, first time taking care of a dog and such. Never heard of his breed (since they weren't on a dog show). Calming signals was like the greatest revelation ever when I first learned about them. I guess I never even thought to go Google up CM stuff or search for his books. I can't tell you why because, of course, I had no idea that what he was doing wasn't right, etc. Even in all my info and book reading overload, CM entered the picture.
> 
> Got lucky I guess?


You've got me there. I'm still trying to explain to myself why my approach to dogs is so different from everyone else's I know...and why my entire approach to life is different from my whole family. I'm going with either lucky, or unusually advanced critical thinking skills.  But my experiences have led me to not expect as much from other dog owners as I expect from myself. And it's not that I really think I'm better or smarter than average or anything like that. It's just that, what if I hadn't had as much access to the internet as I had when I was first starting out, or if I hadn't stumbled upon this forum? I mean, my dad was very well meaning when we got our first dog. He checked out and read several books on dog training from the library. But it just so happened to be that those books were full of "conventional" mainstream wisdom about dominance and arbitrary symbolic behaviors (like making sure to eat before your dog, not let them sleep on your bed, etc). How was he to know what advice to trust and what not to? Why are some people gullible, and likely to take information at face value and why are other people more skeptical? Really, I wish I knew.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> You've got me there. I'm still trying to explain to myself why my approach to dogs is so different from everyone else's I know...and why my entire approach to life is different from my whole family. I'm going with either lucky, or unusually advanced critical thinking skills.  But my experiences have led me to not expect as much from other dog owners as I expect from myself. And it's not that I really think I'm better or smarter than average or anything like that. It's just that, what if I hadn't had as much access to the internet as I had when I was first starting out, or if I hadn't stumbled upon this forum? I mean, my dad was very well meaning when we got our first dog. He checked out and read several books on dog training from the library. But it just so happened to be that those books were full of "conventional" mainstream wisdom about dominance and arbitrary symbolic behaviors (like making sure to eat before your dog, not let them sleep on your bed, etc). How was he to know what advice to trust and what not to? Why are some people gullible, and likely to take information at face value and why are other people more skeptical? Really, I wish I knew.


I think most people still go the 'conventional' way for a few reasons...

1. Quick fixes to behavior problems. It takes more time to teach a dog not to jump on people than it does to simply knee it in the chest or hit it or something

2. It feels good to be in control. Even if that control is fear based, I think many people would be willing to sacrifice that 'trust' for a dog that will sit consistently because it's too shut down to dare try anything. I had the hardest time grappling with this one. Not to go into too much detail, but one of the main areas where I initially failed was I corrected Soro for eating food off the ground on walks. It just made him sneakier and swallow faster, which is dangerous. It took years for me to finally let go of the illusion of control and work on making him not jump away when I 'caught' him with food on the ground. And I completely admit I felt like I FAILED whenever he did that (whenever he got to the food, and later on, I realized the true failure was creating a dog that jumped away from me). One day I'll write a book on how having a dog completely changed me, but that's another story 

3. When people are not in control, they take their frustration out on the living thing they are trying _so hard_ to control.

4. Most people don't do nearly half as many things with their dogs as some people on this forum do. A well behaved dog in the household is all they need, not an adjusted dog to take on trips, or an agility competitor, etc. "Dog jumping on guests? Into the laundry room."

5. People anthropomorphize their dogs all the time.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

To add on, I think 'average' dog owners fall under AT LEAST one of these categories. But even one reason is enough to resort to conventional means.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Canyx said:


> To add on, I think 'average' dog owners fall under AT LEAST one of these categories. But even one reason is enough to resort to conventional means.


I think there's also something appealing about these really simple, straightforward explanations, especially involving dominance. People think they can pin-point a specific reason why their dog is behaving this or that way and do some specific thing that should work every time. So much of what I know about dogs is NOT that simple. I've learned that every dog is unique, and you have to find what motivates them and that dominance theory is bunk but kind of sometimes true, etc etc. Kind of goes with that whole "with knowledge doubt increases" business. Things get a whole lot more complicated usually when you understand them as they really are and I think that frustrates people, especially people in category number 4 who just want their dog to behave goddamnit, instead of being really interested in getting into the nitty gritty of it. I think that is the source of a whole lot of problems in the world, actually, way beyond dogs and training.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> I think that is the source of a whole lot of problems in the world, actually, way beyond dogs and training.


Yes x999999. People (in real life) think I'm way out of character and being overly romantic about dogs when I say "training a dog changes you." But I am not just making deep quotes when I say that. When people _really_ start getting dog behavior and the thinking behind these positive based methods, it changes the way they view everything. It HAS to. Or else they wouldn't understand these methods. Seriously, dog training is like picking up a new language.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Sibe said:


> Exactly.. they are fine until he comes near them, then they often are avoiding him and offering appeasement behaviors. If he moves toward one, it crouches, head lowered, ears back, tail down, might look away from him. These dogs are scared of him, or at least nervous, and don't want to do anything for fear of being punished.
> 
> These dogs can be "fixed" using other methods that don't harm the dog psychologically. CM uses dominance and fear. Usually dogs are taught to change their behavior. Instead of growling when a person comes near the food bowl, look up and get a treat. The result is the same but the dog isn't taught to be wary of the human, but rather to trust the human.


Part of the really sad thing is that he probably enjoys having dogs go belly-up when he looks at them. That's pretty much what he's going for.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> Interesting that she allows the Wheaton to share the bowl with her.


I was thinking that myself.



> Junior honestly makes me so sad.


Me too.



> If he moves toward one, it crouches, head lowered, ears back, tail down, might look away from him. These dogs are scared of him, or at least nervous, and don't want to do anything for fear of being punished.


Personally I think the guy has a real bully mentality. I feel sad for his dogs. I personally can't see how slapping your dog around is considered "playing"...a fun game of tug, yes, ....I don't know......is it a guy thing?


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Canyx said:


> Yes x999999. People (in real life) think I'm way out of character and being overly romantic about dogs when I say "training a dog changes you." But I am not just making deep quotes when I say that. When people _really_ start getting dog behavior and the thinking behind these positive based methods, it changes the way they view everything. It HAS to. Or else they wouldn't understand these methods. Seriously, dog training is like picking up a new language.


Oh I completely agree! I have a friend that could never understand why I have so much interest in it, until I had him watch me do some freeshaping with Sydney. I was teaching her to put her toys in her box...it was maybe the third or fourth session. He found the type of communication we had then-- how nuanced it was and how there was an actual, viewable exchange of information-- kind of baffling. He kept remarking on how you could see her thinking and asking questions about why I was doing this or that in this situation but not in that situation. I like to think it was a learning experience for him. There's a big learning curve when you try to understand how dogs work and how *your* dog specifically works, but once you do, it's so much more valuable than any arbitrary rule or guideline I've ever heard. It's hard to put to words what it's taught me, but it's something really important to how I think these days. lol


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

So Cavalier said:


> ....I don't know......is it a guy thing?


THAT I am not touching, hahaa!


But I slap my dog around all the time and he loves it  With these dogs though, especially that wheaton, I guess it's hard for them to tell when "affection time" might become "correction time" with Caesar if they're having too much fun or something.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

Glad to see I wasn't the only one surprised by this food aggressive dog sharing her bowl.

That Pit bummed me out so much. Can anyone tell what Caesar got onto him for? I heard a sort of grunt or schuff and Caesar said "Are you kidding me?" but when the camera panned over the dog still had a ball in his mouth so I don't know what could have been going on. Either way, he's practically screaming "Don't hurt me!" when CM walks toward him


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I believe the pit was trying to play. Right after that, Cesar says he doesn't allow playing at mealtimes.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> I believe the pit was trying to play. Right after that, Cesar says he doesn't allow playing at mealtimes.


YEAH. Except he immediately started playing with the other dogs so.... ???


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> 3. When people are not in control, they take their frustration out on the living thing they are trying so hard to control.


Just got a text from my dad who's watching Pete while the house is on the market. "Pete has defiance issues, needs to be trained out of him if he's going to stay". Defiance issues? My simpering, overly attached, soft soft soft little dog? Heres what happened, Pete is in a strange place, he's used to being around me almost all day (I've now disappeared), has mild SA already and was fed a cup of Pedigree instead of his usual 1/3 cup of blue buffalo wilderness and was not reliably housetrained to begin with. While dad walked our other dog Pete pooed 3 times in the house. Pete is feeling sick and VERY anxious, he goes ballistic with happiness when dad returns. Dad interprets that as spite for taking Callie out and glee about having made him pay.

Dad is a CM fan, before he has tried to "change the dogs state" (straight out of CM). I don't really mind someone performing jedi mind tricks on my dog but I'm pretty sure by "trained out" dad is now talking overbearing dominance, physical corrections, a lot of frustration about cleaning up a dog mess and a 'battle of the wills'. My sensitive, insecure dog would become a nervous wreck, and dear god what if he made the SA worse?! A few months ago I might have agreed with the CM style (I was a big fan of the show) I've learned a lot here and you can bet your boots those methods won't be used on my dog. Might be okay for some... definitely not Pete.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

People like to be violent. It makes the human brain happy and is addictive. The only thing that gets in the way is guilt. So if you can get someone to tell you that it's the right thing to do and you don't need to feel guilty, most people will take full advantage.


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## jdudziak (Sep 19, 2012)

I don't like the way he hit her in the chest in the beginning of this video. This is abusive. I don't care that he thinks that it is showing the dog who is the alpha. I think he sort of had it coming. You don't hit the dog like that and expect no retaliation.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

The difficult part is on TV nobody can see what the dog really was like before training started (before the video) and what the dog was when training was completed. 

Now add 3 or more dogs to the mix all loose at one time without knowing what the problems were with each individual dog makes the judgment of any trainer difficult.

I watched the Holly dog and saw a dog that showed improvement, will it be a dog that original owners can handle, I don't know, probably not. They could not handle the dog before training started.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Sad, for me anyway, to watch Junior, Cesar's own dog, roll over when he approaches.


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## The Feather Duster (Apr 14, 2010)

What on earth is wrong with CM, because something is definitely wrong. Rather than the dog "whisperer," he seems more like the dog "aggressor." His body language around dogs seems confrontational, as in, "We are about to have a fight and I plan to win and I'm going to win by dirty measures." He seems a bit of a bully, as mentioned.

Maybe I just have a soft dog and many others don't have softies. But hard dogs or soft dogs, whichever training methods work for either kind of dog, I am not okay with harsh methods/corrections and heavy-handed treatment that just shuts a dog down.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

So Cavalier said:


> I personally can't see how slapping your dog around is considered "playing"...a fun game of tug, yes, ....I don't know......is it a guy thing?


A guy thing to, what, kick and slap your dog? 

As a guy - it's not MY thing. The closest thing to that is when a pat Wally's butt, which usually gets him in to play-bow-and walk across the bed with his face on the covers and tail wagging mode, which is my cue to scratch his butt and hear his hahhahhahhahhahhahhahhah sounds and then I'm "obligated" to play now. I'll lightly grab his hair or tickle him on his chest which makes him bound away and play bow and slap his paws on the ground like "get me now hahahaha!" Or "attack" him with his toy fox or rabbit skin and get him to chase it around and try to slap a paw on it (to stop it from moving) or grab and pull it and shake it.

Other than that, my hands and feet make no intentional intimidating or threatening physical contact with him. My hands are for the aforementioned game or to dispense his well-earned rewards, check for mats (which he hates) or stroke him gently (which he loves), if he needs (or wants) a belly rub, he'll lay sideways so I can do one of my jobs LOL.




Canyx said:


> 2. It feels good to be in control. Even if that control is fear based, I think many people would be willing to sacrifice that 'trust' for a dog that will sit consistently because it's too shut down to dare try anything. I had the hardest time grappling with this one. Not to go into too much detail, but one of the main areas where I initially failed was I corrected Soro for eating food off the ground on walks. It just made him sneakier and swallow faster, which is dangerous. It took years for me to finally let go of the illusion of control and work on making him not jump away when I 'caught' him with food on the ground. And I completely admit I felt like I FAILED whenever he did that (whenever he got to the food, and later on, I realized the true failure was creating a dog that jumped away from me). One day I'll write a book on how having a dog completely changed me, but that's another story
> 
> 3. When people are not in control, they take their frustration out on the living thing they are trying _so hard_ to control.



Maybe it's these two that made me never look at CM. Control is something I want minimal amount of. Basically, enough to guide him through the human world, to see he's about to walk into a pit because he's trying to follow a scent and enough to start up fun games and training, which often doesn't need control because he's coming to me with his "I need to play something, please!", or to on occasion have to say "not now, maybe later" and not have him throw a temper-tantrum...or his stuff all over the room.

Basically, enough control to keep him safe, happy, and healthy. Most everything else is negotiable.

Even when looking at information - things like NILIF just seem control oriented - and I mean me having all the control, not just him being self-controlled, yet independent in thought. That's when shaping really appealed to me. What's this? Almost self-directed learning? Unlocking creative and independent thinking skills? Encouraging him to try to solve problems he encounters instead of sitting and looking miserable? Becoming an active participant in his environment of his own initiative? Yes, please! 

More a teacher than a controller. Just turns out that being a teacher who, seemingly randomly, rewards stuff and protects him from the "scary" stuff inside and out, he does tended to make him want to be around me and do stuff so I can maybe hand him a reward and feel safe around me. I got the control by him giving himself to me instead of saying "do it or else".


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

So ... he's now using a pack of dogs to 'test' or possibly provoke an aggressive response in a RG dog, rather than subjecting his own flesh as before? (... who says punishment doesn't work, lol). 
Other than that I'm baffled as to WHY he has those other dogs present.



As per the thread title, I wonder how many times he's actually been bitten. Perhaps I misinterpreted but doesn't he claim Holly was the first and only incident? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY-_vpo-Ayc&feature=player_embedded
Somehow, I'm sure there are many more.





InkedMarie said:


> Sad, for me anyway, to watch Junior, Cesar's own dog, roll over when he approaches.


Hearbreaking for me, to see the dog lie down WAY OFF in the distance when there is feeding going on. Dog food comes out = dog gets as far away as possible? 
... and that poor Booda (sp) seems to be off in his own little world, totally detached for the most part.


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## Devoncroix (Sep 5, 2012)

I watched both videos posted and I am horrified. I have heard of CM but have never actually watched him before. Now I am glad I never bothered. I learned to train dogs many years ago when I was a teen and I worked as a handler, showed my own dobie and assisted a professional dog trainer. We used chokers and clickers had not even been invented yet, but there was never any talk of dominance or "alphas". We used squeakers to get attention and treats as rewards. We did pop chains but owners were taught the proper use of chokers, as opposed to people who put them on backwards and leave them on all the time instead of just for training. For some reason when I read complaints against CM I kind of had that kind of old fashioned training in mind, but this is something all together different, and very very dangerous. This kind of training will create dogs who will eventually go insane and attack humans. Suppression of this kind would make any living creature eventually snap, not just dogs.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

KBLover said:


> Even when looking at information - things like NILIF just seem control oriented -


It's interesting you say that. I've never thought about it that way but it could make sense... It might be the reason why I subscribe to that theory so strongly! I'm not longer a control freak, like getting upset if Soro does anything wrong. But a part of me still likes having control. I've just found more positive means of attaining it I guess.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

Canyx said:


> I was just going to say the same thing!
> I don't approve of this method at all, but I gotta say... Can someone explain a "shut down" dog to me? Because in my mind a shut down dog is the pit at that point went it rolled over as Caesar approached it, and the point where the wheaton was hunched in the corner when the other dogs got 'affection.' But I always thought shut down dogs were like that all the time... I was surprised to see that dogs like Holly were still willing to _play_ with him instead of just slinking away and cowering.


Based on my experiences a shut down dog to me is a dog that has completely given up and is terrified. Usually ears are back, body is very stiff, it's almost like they are curled in a ball, they don't move and you really don't see them breathing. I've seen this kind of stuff happen when people hit their dogs a lot or one time really hard or the dog is just real fearful, one GSD I worked with comes to mind, I was walking with her from the garage to main house and she shut down like that and when I invited her to come to me, she just curled up even more, took a few minutes for her to bounce back and come to me.
What I see Junior do in the video where he rolls on his side isn't really "shut down" to me, and after that he's just very cautious about the situation, which is normal. I wouldn't be surprised if the rolling on his side by choice is a taught behavior when Cesar moves towards him. I've never seen a dog willingly give it's stomach to another dog, unless they are playing, but I've seen hybrid wolf dogs give their stomach when they are scared of being disciplined. It's probably something Cesar taught his dogs to support the whole "dogs are wolves" thing.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

EdDTS said:


> Based on my experiences a shut down dog to me is a dog that has completely given up and is terrified. Usually ears are back, body is very stiff, it's almost like they are curled in a ball, they don't move and you really don't see them breathing. I've seen this kind of stuff happen when people hit their dogs a lot or one time really hard or the dog is just real fearful, one GSD I worked with comes to mind, I was walking with her from the garage to main house and she shut down like that and when I invited her to come to me, she just curled up even more, took a few minutes for her to bounce back and come to me.
> What I see Junior do in the video where he rolls on his side isn't really "shut down" to me, and after that he's just very cautious about the situation, which is normal. I wouldn't be surprised if the rolling on his side by choice is a taught behavior when Cesar moves towards him. I've never seen a dog willingly give it's stomach to another dog, unless they are playing, but I've seen hybrid wolf dogs give their stomach when they are scared of being disciplined. It's probably something Cesar taught his dogs to support the whole "dogs are wolves" thing.


This is not at all what I'm reading from Cesar's pit, but Sydney does go belly up when she's REALLY happy to see someone, especially my dad...but anyone she really likes. Not sure if she's intending to show submission like "look how good and deferential I'm being LOVE MEEEE" or if she's just inviting belly rubs (well this one is for sure true, but I'm not sure if it's the *only* reason, lol) but it's something she does fairly often. If she doesn't know somebody and is excited to see them, she'll jump up and be annoying, but if she has a good rapport with them she just whines and whines and rolls on her belly like "I love you so much my heart will break if you don't pet me!!!!"


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> I think there's also something appealing about these really simple, straightforward explanations, especially involving dominance. People think they can pin-point a specific reason why their dog is behaving this or that way and do some specific thing that should work every time. So much of what I know about dogs is NOT that simple. I've learned that every dog is unique, and you have to find what motivates them and that dominance theory is bunk but kind of sometimes true, etc etc. Kind of goes with that whole "with knowledge doubt increases" business. Things get a whole lot more complicated usually when you understand them as they really are and I think that frustrates people, especially people in category number 4 who just want their dog to behave goddamnit, instead of being really interested in getting into the nitty gritty of it. I think that is the source of a whole lot of problems in the world, actually, way beyond dogs and training.


I also think that if one is hooked on to dominance theory, one believes that everything the dog does is trying to take over control. There becomes a certain amount of fear involved that your dog is trying to take over the universe, and it makes it a lot more comfortable to use harsh techiques than if you believe the dog is simply confused, not yet trained or occasionally has a priority which is not the same as yours. Dominance theory sees the dog as a rival, not a partner.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> People like to be violent. It makes the human brain happy and is addictive. The only thing that gets in the way is guilt. So if you can get someone to tell you that it's the right thing to do and you don't need to feel guilty, most people will take full advantage.


I don't think all (or even most) people like to be violent. And I think, given a better way than violence, most people will take it. A number of statements just on this thread indicate that.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> As per the thread title, I wonder how many times he's actually been bitten. Perhaps I misinterpreted but doesn't he claim Holly was the first and only incident? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY-_vpo-Ayc&feature=player_embedded
> Somehow, I'm sure there are many more.


I remember him being quite bloody after the Shadow incident, and several other incidents where he is bitten. And this guy has pretty fast reflexes. I shudder to think what happens when people ignore the warnings not to try this at home.


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

I'm not going to comment much on Cesar other thango say I really don't like him and his methods (though like many have said when I was younger and less dog savvy I liked his show). What I do want to say is oh my god, the comments some people leave on these videos are horrible. I need to stop reading them. They make me feel sick.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> People like to be violent. It makes the human brain happy and is addictive. The only thing that gets in the way is guilt. So if you can get someone to tell you that it's the right thing to do and you don't need to feel guilty, most people will take full advantage.


Wow!!!! It must be tough being you.



> I don't think all (or even most) people like to be violent. And I think, given a better way than violence, most people will take it. A number of statements just on this thread indicate that.


I have met some bums and bunches of very nice people in my travels. Thank doG that the nice definitely outnumbered the evil.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Canyx said:


> It's interesting you say that. I've never thought about it that way but it could make sense... It might be the reason why I subscribe to that theory so strongly! I'm not longer a control freak, like getting upset if Soro does anything wrong. But a part of me still likes having control. I've just found more positive means of attaining it I guess.


To me, it's like a "kinder, gentler" dominance system. 

It doesn't work well for me. Too many things in Wally's life are indeed "free", especially in the context of NILIF. Like if I just give him a treat right now because he's just laying there - that would be "free" in the context of NILIF (he didn't do a behavior I explicitly wanted or expect in that situation, yet got a reward). 

I guess in the view of capturing and shaping - NILIF is more control oriented than "let the dog come up with stuff and if you see some you might want him to do again or is a step in what in direction you had in mind, reward it". I never know what I'm going to get or how it exactly it will (or even should) go. I just present a scenario, so to speak, and see where he goes with it.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

KBLover said:


> To me, it's like a "kinder, gentler" dominance system.
> 
> It doesn't work well for me. Too many things in Wally's life are indeed "free", especially in the context of NILIF. Like if I just give him a treat right now because he's just laying there - that would be "free" in the context of NILIF (he didn't do a behavior I explicitly wanted or expect in that situation, yet got a reward).


Except, if he's laying there, not getting into trouble, aren't you rewarding behavior you find acceptable?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Canyx said:


> It's interesting you say that. I've never thought about it that way but it could make sense... It might be the reason why I subscribe to that theory so strongly! I'm not longer a control freak, like getting upset if Soro does anything wrong. But a part of me still likes having control. I've just found more positive means of attaining it I guess.


It's controling, but in a different way, you control by (as i understand it) giving... or withholding something the ddog wants until you get the behavior YOU want. I.e. me not throwing the ball until Josefina sits, i dont get mad, roll her, grab her scruff, etc... but i still get what i wantbecause i have patience & all day to wait for the behavior i want, which luckily i dont have wait long LOL because Josefina is NOT patient & has a lot of drive, so witholding play works for her. just like REWARDING with play does as well... 'good sit... you get to chase ball now!" believe me it didnt take her long to learn.

i dont understand why hee got mad at Junior for picking up that ball, if it was me i would have turned it into a command & called him over to me to throw it. Oh wait he doesnt believe in a pack of dogs playing together without 'killing' one another which is funny because mine all chase the same ball, play if someone reaches it first they dont fight over it, they rough house (buddy & Josefina usually run back & forth together, biting & growling at each other as Bear... the JRT fetches the ball) no one kills or hurts one another, if they get too out of hand they get a time out & dont get to play or have any contact with me for the rest of the session.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

kafkabeetle said:


> Except, if he's laying there, not getting into trouble, aren't you rewarding behavior you find acceptable?


What I find acceptable? Yes. Is it what I want to encourage? Yes. 

Did I request/ask/cue/command/expect/signal that behavior? No. Do I require it? No. He could go walk around the basement, sniff the room, whatever. In fact, he usually does those things between the laying down - I don't make him stop and lay down, then reward it.

By NILIF definition, that's a "free" reward. It was not given in response to a human-directed or signaled or previously taught behavior. 

About the only examples of NILIF are him sitting before I go out (I expect/require a sit before I take him out), and to stay out of the kitchen since mom doesn't want Wally in the kitchen, so I teach it so he won't get in trouble with her (I don't really care), and even that might have been more shaping since I got him so interested in the edge of the rug that he uses it to stop at instead of going to the kitchen.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> I don't think all (or even most) people like to be violent.


Agreed. Although there is a certain amount of venting frustration with harsher corrections I don't think its truly violent, if it were people wouldnt stop at a leash pop. Also the idea that everyone is evil directly contradicts my view of the world. I think mostly people hear about the CM system and it makes a lot of sense. 

The rationale is dogs are pack animals, packs have a hierarchy, therefore you must be at the top to keep everything stable for everyones good. We are teaching a dog and must speak their language, look how other dogs discipline each other and whether or not they reward each other, lets take our cue from them.

When its put that way... it still makes a lot of sense to me. I see a lot of nuances and contradictions now than I didnt before but it still looks like a cohesive philosophy. Honestly, I don't have enough experience or information to make a ruling on what system is 'right' or 'best', anyone who's worked with just a couple dogs couldnt possibly generalize that far. For now I'm just trying to do what Zim suggested in another thread, try to understand Pete, how he thinks and operates and just try to build communication. Notice what works and what doesnt. I'm not going to limit myself to any single system, just trust my own judgement.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> This is not at all what I'm reading from Cesar's pit, but Sydney does go belly up when she's REALLY happy to see someone, especially my dad...but anyone she really likes. Not sure if she's intending to show submission like "look how good and deferential I'm being LOVE MEEEE" or if she's just inviting belly rubs (well this one is for sure true, but I'm not sure if it's the *only* reason, lol) but it's something she does fairly often. If she doesn't know somebody and is excited to see them, she'll jump up and be annoying, but if she has a good rapport with them she just whines and whines and rolls on her belly like "I love you so much my heart will break if you don't pet me!!!!"


In my times at the dog park, I have seen several scared dogs roll over and show their bellies out of what is plainly fear. Their owners always seem to interpret it as playing, but these dogs are clearly not playing - they're usually in the dog park for the first time and being ambushed by 3-4 overly friendly other dogs. To me, this sort of thing says "I am terrified, please don't hurt me, I am just a friendly little dog with a soft vulnerable belly." Which is basically what I saw Junior doing in the second Cesar video up there. "I hear you making that ominous Tsst sound. Perhaps if I show you what a nice, vulnerable little dog I am, you won't alpha roll me or shock me."


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Canyx said:


> Okay, just watched it again and I get what you mean. Like when Junior comes near him tail wagging (low) after he belly rolled, but he was licking his lips the whole way.


 I saw LOT of lip licking, but then I remembered there was food so Junior was probably salivating too which caused extra lip licking.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

hamandeggs said:


> In my times at the dog park, I have seen several scared dogs roll over and show their bellies out of what is plainly fear. Their owners always seem to interpret it as playing, but these dogs are clearly not playing - they're usually in the dog park for the first time and being ambushed by 3-4 overly friendly other dogs. To me, this sort of thing says "I am terrified, please don't hurt me, I am just a friendly little dog with a soft vulnerable belly." Which is basically what I saw Junior doing in the second Cesar video up there. "I hear you making that ominous Tsst sound. Perhaps if I show you what a nice, vulnerable little dog I am, you won't alpha roll me or shock me."


Yep, this. KYLIE responds to unknown large, scary dogs by flipping and screaming.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Sibe said:


> I saw LOT of lip licking, but then I remembered there was food so Junior was probably salivating too which caused extra lip licking.


Could be both. Plus, appeasement doesn't necessarily mean fear or intimidation. It can also be a way dogs "ask" for things. Wally has poked my leg lightly and then sit and rounds his face/ears and nose licks while blinking. Or he'll bark but playbow and "bark out the side of his mouth" with a tilted gaze. A mix of appeasement and wanting something. I think it depends on how this dog is/was. If he didn't normally do that, but then started to after interacting with CM, then I would agree there is possibly more than just appeasement mixed in.



hamandeggs said:


> In my times at the dog park, I have seen several scared dogs roll over and show their bellies out of what is plainly fear. Their owners always seem to interpret it as playing, but these dogs are clearly not playing - they're usually in the dog park for the first time and being ambushed by 3-4 overly friendly other dogs. To me, this sort of thing says "I am terrified, please don't hurt me, I am just a friendly little dog with a soft vulnerable belly." Which is basically what I saw Junior doing in the second Cesar video up there. "I hear you making that ominous Tsst sound. Perhaps if I show you what a nice, vulnerable little dog I am, you won't alpha roll me or shock me."


IMO/IME, depends on the context. 

Wally flips on his belly now that he knows how to roll over. He'll do it and thump his tail on the floor. Not likely fear. More likely "come interact with me, I'll even show my belly to show I'm peaceful!" 

Dogs do sometimes play with flipping over like that. Typically, it looks like part of the game and it usually doesn't last long/role reversal (I've seen it when the lower dog wrestles the top dog off and then the roles flip and then they start something else). Wally plays like that sometimes, he'll flip over, I'll scratch/tickle him, then he'll flip back and jump up on me or play bow while slapping his paws on the floor.

However, if a dog doesn't normally flip, but then does so, especially in the situation you describe - maybe a little uncertain about the new environment and wanting to check it out and then suddenly pounced on/ambushed by very forward dogs - that's probably just appeasement/'you really scared me, please back off some" like you said. 

I think it can go either way and it depends on the dog and deviation from how the dog normally communicates and all that. At least, that's how I'd interpret it for Wally.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> IMO/IME, depends on the context.
> 
> Wally flips on his belly now that he knows how to roll over. He'll do it and thump his tail on the floor. Not likely fear. More likely "come interact with me, I'll even show my belly to show I'm peaceful!"
> 
> ...


Yes, it depends on context. Did you WATCH the video. That poor pitbull isn't playing, he's terrified. And the wheaton is doing his very best to stay out of the way and not get noticed. I didn't see a dog who was happy or trying to play in the whole group.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Slightly off topic--- I was just wondering if CM ever defends himself or explains his choices. The things that CM does often light up the training boards. Does he ever respond? Certainly, this incident with Holly has caused a storm. Has he explained his thinking anywhere besides in the episode itself?


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> Slightly off topic--- I was just wondering if CM ever defends himself or explains his choices. The things that CM does often light up the training boards. Does he ever respond? Certainly, this incident with Holly has caused a storm. Has he explained his thinking anywhere besides in the episode itself?


I've never seen him post anywhere, I don't even believe he has an official forum like how we have it set up here at dogforums.
I know his usual defense when asked in interviews by reporters about his methods and the controversy surrounding his methods is, "my way is not the only way, it is just a way."


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> "my way is not the only way, it is just a way."


When he's right, he's right. All trainers have their ways. It would be nice if minds weren't closed and the ways could be improved. Doesn't always happen cause it's not a perfect world.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

KBLover said:


> IMO/IME, depends on the context.
> 
> Wally flips on his belly now that he knows how to roll over. He'll do it and thump his tail on the floor. Not likely fear. More likely "come interact with me, I'll even show my belly to show I'm peaceful!"
> 
> ...


Oh, sure. Biscuit sleeps on her back with her paws in the air and she rolls over for belly scratches. This dog, in this video? No. That dog was scared and trying to appease Cesar. Poor little guy. 

I don't even understand why someone who thinks "Cesar's Way" is the best way would want to own a dog in the first place. Why would you want to be around a creature that is scared of you and snivels away when you show up? That does not seem like a pleasant contribution to one's household, but maybe I'm not being cynical enough here.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

KBLover said:


> To me, it's like a "kinder, gentler" dominance system.
> 
> It doesn't work well for me. Too many things in Wally's life are indeed "free", especially in the context of NILIF. Like if I just give him a treat right now because he's just laying there - that would be "free" in the context of NILIF (he didn't do a behavior I explicitly wanted or expect in that situation, yet got a reward).
> 
> I guess in the view of capturing and shaping - NILIF is more control oriented than "let the dog come up with stuff and if you see some you might want him to do again or is a step in what in direction you had in mind, reward it". I never know what I'm going to get or how it exactly it will (or even should) go. I just present a scenario, so to speak, and see where he goes with it.


See to me, if I was working with that dog and trying to teach it calmness, I would agree with kafkabeetle and count it as a reward. But if it was my dog or another dog that has already 'learned' to be calm when I'm busy or whatever, it would be a freebie. This is just me though.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

wvasko said:


> When he's right, he's right. All trainers have their ways. It would be nice if minds weren't closed and the ways could be improved. Doesn't always happen cause it's not a perfect world.


Dog trainers love to compete with other dog trainers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8NqDJwRRdM

This one always makes me laugh


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

EdDTS said:


> Dog trainers love to compete with other dog trainers.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8NqDJwRRdM
> 
> This one always makes me laugh


I'm not sure but I think wife and I watched that on TV, At the time we thought it was kinda silly. You wonder how much if any is directed to raise interest in the show etc or if it's all real.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I'm not sure but I think wife and I watched that on TV, At the time we thought it was kinda silly. You wonder how much if any is directed to raise interest in the show etc or if it's all real.


Victoria is an actress whose dog training message is somewhat less dangerous than CMs (and she's really come around in the past few years - used to blast airhorns in dogs ears.) I do wish we'd see shows with real, legitimate trainers who came to dog training through an actual study of dog training. Patricia McConnell is cute and perky and there are many good young trainers out there who are actually dog trainers and have a bit of camera appeal. The problem is, good positive reinforcement based training is sorta boring to watch if you don't understand what is going on.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> I do wish we'd see shows with real, legitimate trainers who came to dog training through an actual study of dog training. Patricia McConnell is cute and perky and there are many good young trainers out there who are actually dog trainers and have a bit of camera appeal. The problem is, good positive reinforcement based training is sorta boring to watch if you don't understand what is going on.


Me too. Unfortunately, it is the entertainment industry that we are dealing with here. Those of us who are seriously interested in training seek these out ourselves in books and videos. We are a small audience base. The general public wants to be entertained and wants results NOW. I do like watching Victoria's show. There are some really clueless people out there....If I had to choose, I would rather they watch her show than Cesar's.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I do like watching Victoria's show. There are some really clueless people out there....If I had to choose, I would rather they watch her show than Cesar's.


Got to watch it all cause it's important to learn what to do and what not to do.


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## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> I do wish we'd see shows with real, legitimate trainers who came to dog training through an actual study of dog training.


It doesn't make good reality TV. Good reality TV involves competition (Survivor), stupidity (Honey Boo Boo), humor (Funny or Die), drama (Real Housewives), weirdness (Hoarders), danger (DW) or a combination of these elements. Just training a dog, boring.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Canyx said:


> See to me, if I was working with that dog and trying to teach it calmness, I would agree with kafkabeetle and count it as a reward. But if it was my dog or another dog that has already 'learned' to be calm when I'm busy or whatever, it would be a freebie. This is just me though.


I would agree - it's just that Wally fits the second sentence moreso. He's typically calm by nature, especially in the home.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

bgmacaw said:


> It doesn't make good reality TV. Good reality TV involves competition (Survivor), stupidity (Honey Boo Boo), humor (Funny or Die), drama (Real Housewives), weirdness (Hoarders), danger (DW) or a combination of these elements. Just training a dog, boring.


Well, we could always have a show called "The Next Dog Training Star" and have the judges be dog trainers that all fit that criteria. It'd be like edutainment - the judges could tell them what they did wrong, and by extension explaining the do's and don'ts of training. 

Heck, take the Project Runway format and the "In" or "Out" would be the dog performing some tricks, behaviors, tasks, whatever on a stage. Then they explain how they got the dog to do it when time to eliminate one. Let Heidi Klum do it even - her and two legit dog trainers. A third one could play the "Tim Gunn" role.

I'd watch it


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

How bout a show that's like Pet Star, or America's Got Talent, or whatever... But just much more highly diverse, so maybe episodes featuring dogs that know amazing tricks, but also dogs who work with sheep, and dogs on the other side of the world and how people raise them differently... So there would be a WOW factor from seeing dogs do amazing things, but not just ONE thing (like JUST agility). It could also go into the history of some dog breeds if there is a focus on the sighthounds of the middle east or something....
And THEN, there can be a side component of "okay, we just saw those dogs do those amazing things. How could you get YOUR dog to do that?" And there can be some very basic, groundwork building tips for the viewer. Heck, they can even do it so that the viewer can 'follow along' and each episode can revisit and build on the tips before.

I think there is HUGE potential to present positive dog training in an entertaining light. Shows that come to mind are ones like Kratt's Creatures, and Zaboomafoo... Education component, 'real' look into the animals' lives, then back to animal junction to 'have fun' and talk details.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Canyx said:


> How bout a show that's like Pet Star, or America's Got Talent, or whatever... But just much more highly diverse, so maybe episodes featuring dogs that know amazing tricks, but also dogs who work with sheep, and dogs on the other side of the world and how people raise them differently... So there would be a WOW factor from seeing dogs do amazing things, but not just ONE thing (like JUST agility). It could also go into the history of some dog breeds if there is a focus on the sighthounds of the middle east or something....
> And THEN, there can be a side component of "okay, we just saw those dogs do those amazing things. How could you get YOUR dog to do that?" And there can be some very basic, groundwork building tips for the viewer. Heck, they can even do it so that the viewer can 'follow along' and each episode can revisit and build on the tips before.
> 
> I think there is HUGE potential to present positive dog training in an entertaining light. Shows that come to mind are ones like Kratt's Creatures, and Zaboomafoo... Education component, 'real' look into the animals' lives, then back to animal junction to 'have fun' and talk details.



Get on it - I want to watch this next season!


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

Canyx said:


> How bout a show that's like Pet Star, or America's Got Talent, or whatever... But just much more highly diverse, so maybe episodes featuring dogs that know amazing tricks, but also dogs who work with sheep, and dogs on the other side of the world and how people raise them differently... So there would be a WOW factor from seeing dogs do amazing things, but not just ONE thing (like JUST agility). It could also go into the history of some dog breeds if there is a focus on the sighthounds of the middle east or something....
> And THEN, there can be a side component of "okay, we just saw those dogs do those amazing things. How could you get YOUR dog to do that?" And there can be some very basic, groundwork building tips for the viewer. Heck, they can even do it so that the viewer can 'follow along' and each episode can revisit and build on the tips before.
> 
> I think there is HUGE potential to present positive dog training in an entertaining light. Shows that come to mind are ones like Kratt's Creatures, and Zaboomafoo... Education component, 'real' look into the animals' lives, then back to animal junction to 'have fun' and talk details.


Love this idea, I loved Zaboomafu as a kid!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Dr. Yen is another 'cute, perky' trainer, too. 

Stilwell is an actress? Lol didn't know that one


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## Corinthian (Sep 21, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> Slightly off topic--- I was just wondering if CM ever defends himself or explains his choices. The things that CM does often light up the training boards. Does he ever respond? Certainly, this incident with Holly has caused a storm. Has he explained his thinking anywhere besides in the episode itself?


CM has been lucky in that he gets general interest reporters who act as little more than nodding heads, agreeing to every bit of nonsense that comes out of his mouth. CM would get crushed like a bug if he was interviewed by a knowledgeable trainer who could call him on all the BS


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

bgmacaw said:


> It doesn't make good reality TV. Good reality TV involves competition (Survivor), stupidity (Honey Boo Boo), humor (Funny or Die), drama (Real Housewives), weirdness (Hoarders), danger (DW) or a combination of these elements. Just training a dog, boring.


You forgot: Shocking/gruesome (TWD) silly (animal practice) so if there isn't some level of suspense to is I guess it isn't a marketable show, it's sad really that ppl expect the same 'drama' from something that is SUPPOSED to be educational.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Dr. Yen is another 'cute, perky' trainer, too.
> 
> Stilwell is an actress? Lol didn't know that one


Yes, Stilwell is an actress turned dog walker, turned "trainer." I really like some of Sophia Yen's DS videos, however the one where she playing bucking bronco with the dog on the head halter and the cutsey one where she uses a scat mat on a counter walking JRT are a bit concerning to me. It could be that they are very old. But they are still up and available.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> Yes, Stilwell is an actress turned dog walker, turned "trainer." I really like some of Sophia Yen's DS videos, however the one where she playing bucking bronco with the dog on the head halter and the cutsey one where she uses a scat mat on a counter walking JRT are a bit concerning to me. It could be that they are very old. But they are still up and available.


Why is a scat mat bad? I was actually honking about using one to stop Josefina's digging around this one tree in the back yard. But I think I will just put wire mesh around the areas... Cheaper.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> Why is a scat mat bad? I was actually honking about using one to stop Josefina's digging around this one tree in the back yard. But I think I will just put wire mesh around the areas... Cheaper.


Don't they shock the dogs or something - like on their paw pads when they walk on it? It's like an e-collar laid flat and more flexible from the descriptions I've read.

I wouldn't use one with Wally if they work like that. Last thing I'd want is him scared to walk because the floor might zap him. For the issues I've seen them used/recommended for (not being on furniture, etc), seems like they could just handled as easily with R+ techniques and teaching alternative behaviors or stimulus control (i.e. cues).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Why is a scat mat bad? I was actually honking about using one to stop Josefina's digging around this one tree in the back yard. But I think I will just put wire mesh around the areas... Cheaper.


It's not bad if you are okay on relying on positive punishment to fix your problem.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Canyx said:


> How bout a show that's like Pet Star, or America's Got Talent, or whatever... But just much more highly diverse, so maybe episodes featuring dogs that know amazing tricks, but also dogs who work with sheep, and dogs on the other side of the world and how people raise them differently... So there would be a WOW factor from seeing dogs do amazing things, but not just ONE thing (like JUST agility). It could also go into the history of some dog breeds if there is a focus on the sighthounds of the middle east or something....
> And THEN, there can be a side component of "okay, we just saw those dogs do those amazing things. How could you get YOUR dog to do that?" And there can be some very basic, groundwork building tips for the viewer. Heck, they can even do it so that the viewer can 'follow along' and each episode can revisit and build on the tips before.
> 
> I think there is HUGE potential to present positive dog training in an entertaining light. Shows that come to mind are ones like Kratt's Creatures, and Zaboomafoo... Education component, 'real' look into the animals' lives, then back to animal junction to 'have fun' and talk details.


There was. America's Greatest Dog or some such. A number of people with their pet dogs lived in a dog themed house and had challenges to meet. I remember an elephant and the last show was getting the dog through an obstacle course without any handling. A young man with a young boxer won I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_American_Dog

It wasn't a competition but Zak George taught ordinary dog owners to sort of do extraordinary tricks on Super Fetch. I don't know who learned more, the dog or the dog's human.
http://animal.discovery.com/tv/superfetch/

My all time favorite training show was Barking Mad. Loved that show, sure wish it was still on the air. 
http://www.locatetv.com/tv/barking-mad/1767396


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

It's hard to redirect when you can't be there all the time, they go out during the day, some times I can be out with them (it's a safe fenced yard but hey are never out when no one is home). I think I'm going to go with thr buried chicken wire.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> It's hard to redirect when you can't be there all the time, they go out during the day, some times I can be out with them (it's a safe fenced yard but hey are never out when no one is home). I think I'm going to go with thr buried chicken wire.


One thing to keep in mind is that driven hole diggers can hurt themselves when they get to the chicken wire. 1. it's thin and can cut, 2. realistically it's not very strong. Years ago before we poured concrete all kennel runs were cedar posts and 2 by 4 inch Mason horse fence, I also would use same fence on ground then cover it with 4 inches of road gravel that would pack down a bit. It was more expensive but if a dog cuts his pad etc it also could be expensive. Not advising just throwing it out here.

The horse fence was 6 ft high but can be cut down to 2 ft strips. 

Chicken wire may do the job if the dogs don't work at it too hard.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> It's hard to redirect when you can't be there all the time, they go out during the day, some times I can be out with them (it's a safe fenced yard but hey are never out when no one is home). I think I'm going to go with thr buried chicken wire.


The reason most people use positive punishment is because it is less work than actually supervising and teaching the dog what to do. Chicken wire falls outside those lines and is more management. I'd go with hardware cloth instead (smaller mesh). Scat mat? Well it's shocking your dog pure and simple, and I'm surprised Yin would be so cutesy and cavalier about doing that. Another option, of course is to give the dogs a "sandbox" with toys and treats buried, and redirect them to their special digging place any time you catch them digging in an unacceptable place. Unless, of course, they are digging to escape.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

i have set up an area in the yard where she really loves to dig (the sand put where we burn limbs), I have been treating her & praising her when she chooses to dig there & telling her no or, if i am inside, tapping on the window when i catch her digging anywhere else. she's getting it, i just have to tell myself to have patience. i also dont want to have to be out there every second of the say, IMHO that doesnt teach her anything except just not to do it when I'm out there, i know her as soon as i went back inside (i love my dogs & love training but i cant spend every waking moment supervising them like they are 4 month old puppies) or sometimes i have to go somewhere (they are only left out when im not there if my parents are home if no one is home they are brought inside when i leave).

i get that its wrong for someone to just yell at their dog for something gthey are doing wrong, then go back inside like a lazy person, thats not me, i make sure that they know where they can dig & where they cant, its not like im telling her she cant at all, thats not realistic, she'd a digger & always will be. but if she can enjoy herself while making herself useful (keeping our burn pit dug out LOL) then cool.

@Wvasko thanks for the heads up on the chicken wire, not that i think about it you are totally right. i mwan her digging (around a particular tree next to the house) is aggrivating but i would never put something there that would cause her bodily harm. I will try the screen or the fencing you suggested.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I follow a similar philosophy, and after many years, my dog digs in the right places. I accept two 'consequences:' 1) He will dig elsewhere if he finds a mole or shrew to dig up; 2) He will eat random twigs, grasshoppers, and swallow an occassional pebble (not chew, just swallow... and just one or two  ). These behaviors don't seem to cause major harm to him or the yard.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> but if she can enjoy herself while making herself useful (keeping our burn pit dug out LOL) then cool.


That's the mindset I always try to take. 

How can I make this behavior useful to me instead of fighting against it or suppressing it? Lately in my case it this observant nature he has and stuff that's there at night that wasn't there early. He sees it and gets all alert about it. 95% of the time it's something stupid like a box in a field or last night it was a tricycle some kid left that wasn't there in the afternoon, but he must want to be my eyes and ears at night, pointing out stuff that looks strange to him. I definitely encourage it, watch his reaction, ask him "what do you see?", let him know that it matters to me - instead of just telling him to come on or whatever. I might need that observant night behavior some day.

Trying to pry open the cabinet doors with his nose and pawing on doors led to him opening and closing doors for me.

For behaviors I've taught - I want to find ways he can use it on his own not just 'when I say so'. If he runs with pawing things - I try to have him "pull" things with his paws, or set up situations where he has to "pull it to him" with his paws so he can pick it up (which freaks my mom out when he does it - she's like "he's using his paws like hands!"). With his throwing of rugs, trying to teach him to grab and fold it, which can lead to him folding things for me (still want to make him a "house-working dog", open/close doors, pick up and carry things, folding things, sometimes his size gets in the way - not big/strong enough to carry some things, etc)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> @Wvasko thanks for the heads up on the chicken wire, not that i think about it you are totally right. i mwan her digging (around a particular tree next to the house) is aggrivating but i would never put something there that would cause her bodily harm. I will try the screen or the fencing you suggested.


Pawz mentioned the hardware cloth's smaller mesh that might work and actually be safer, I've just never used it and am not sure how strong it is. Might be interesting to experiment with, try it around tree or any smaller area.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

This is just awful. I'm beginning to think he really does have a screw loose. That poor, poor dog. Why, oh why, would one punch a dog while it is eating?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Kathyy said:


> There was. America's Greatest Dog or some such. A number of people with their pet dogs lived in a dog themed house and had challenges to meet. I remember an elephant and the last show was getting the dog through an obstacle course without any handling. A young man with a young boxer won I think.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greatest_American_Dog


Thing is, I think it's unreasonable to ask dogs to leap off high places or remain still when being approached by an elephant.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> I think it's unreasonable to ask dogs to leap off high places or remain still when being approached by an elephant.


Not to mention unsafe. I would not have put any of my dogs in the situation where they had to sit still near an approaching elephant. Me either...


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

That's not just unreasonable it's dangerous ??? 

I know I was like... WTF??? A Greg way to put a dog off eating IMHO.


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