# Pit bulls ( Hopefully this doesnt offend anyone )



## SkiGirl (Jan 22, 2007)

What's your take on them ? Im just asking because the next door neighbor just got one and i don't know to much about them ? Seem's like a nice puppy just hyper like ours ha


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## brokendreams490 (Oct 24, 2006)

Hmm.. well I guess any dog can be a good dog if trained properly. I would never own one, and honestly seeing one scares me. All the stories I have heard have always been negative about them. I dont know maybe if they a raised right then they may be fine dogs, but i would never own one and I dont really like them.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

Wonderful dog, stupid people.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

My honest opinion. Like any other dog there are good and bad examples. I've encountered both with APBTs. And it holds true, the badly behaved and aggressive ones I've met, were down to the owners. My one friend had one that was really "testy", but spent probably 90% of his day either crated or tethered up to a tree. Same goes for my old neighbour, his dog was outside 24/7 to "protect the house". Neither dog had any training or socialization.

Other friends of mine have had awesome Pitties, and quite honestly I wanted to nab em and drive off with them...LOL. Such incredible dogs. But they took the time, did the training and socialization.

I hate how the media portrays them, making them seem like monsters. And I hate even more that because of irresponsible owners, and the media hype, many places have now banned the breed. Since when has it ever been "guilty until proven innocent"? I hate BSL, it solves nothing.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

In Toledo they are consided a "Dangourus breed" and you can not have more then 1. TO me it is just the Dog wardens way of getting his own way and for the mayor to be able to say their is not a Gange problem in the city. Along with so much more politices I will not even get into it.

It is not the dog but the owner.

Heidi


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## sobreeze (Oct 31, 2006)

*pitbulls*

i think they get a bad rap i have never owned one but i have meet a few i think it boils down to bad owners bad dogs good owners good dogs a lot of them are bred by stupid people for fighting or like my nephew that has two he dont keep a job or support him kids can you just think what care his dogs get he would fall under stupid  they ones i have meet were very nice dogs i like the bull breeds english bulldog , boston terrier , frence bull ,bull terrier , boxers


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

SkiGirl said:


> What's your take on them ? Im just asking because the next door neighbor just got one and i don't know to much about them ? Seem's like a nice puppy just hyper like ours ha


It depends on your neighbor and how he trains him...if he does at all. Unless you know your neighbors personality pretty well, I wouldn't turn my back on his pet. He may be like a lot of others who think they can turn a canine into a lean, mean, fightin' machine and many have been bred that way. In the wrong hands they're dangerous and I'd just be watchful. Most of us "ain't no dog whisperer". I've seen some the only way I'd go around them with them off lead is with a .45 Colt in my pocket.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

They do get a bad rap because they often get bad owners


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

They get a bad rap becuase people who own them are wannabe gangsters and watch to many music videos. They are a status symbol, and in most places the tougher dog you have the better they think they are. That is why they are on th enews all the time. Becuase those dogs were not trained and were more then likley caged with no socialization and then escape and attack.

Now the people that own them becuase they love the breed, those are the good dogs. The sweet family pets they are meant to be. They were never breed to be aggresive to people, they are bred to be awsome with people. 

They are a good breed with proper training and socialization and love, just like any breed needs. A collie a lab a husky will all turn and attack if locked up with no training and teetherd to a 4 foot rope 24/7.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

My opinion, which is mostly based on information I've gotten from pit bull rescues, is that a dog is made out of three factors - 

Factor One - what they were originally selectively bred to do which is dog fighting. When a dog is selectively bred, all examples that are not desirable for that purpose are "culled" which can mean killed or just not bred. Pit bulls that attacked their owner/handlers in or out of the fighting arena were culled. Which meant that only people friendly, dog aggressive dogs were chosen to produce the next generation of pit bulls.

Factor Two - how they are bred now. Responsible breeders, of which there are few in any breed, selectively breed pit bulls to not only be people friendly, but also they have tried to breed out the dog aggressiveness. IMO this has to be difficult when it's considered that other breeds are selectively bred to preserve the original breed and what it was bred for. But responsible breeders now are trying to change the temperament for the better, while preserving the rest of what the dog originally was. The problem is, most breeders are not responsible. The balance are either backyard breeders who just breed two pit bulls because all their friends want them, or some other ridiculous reason, without having a clue about the parent dog's health or temperament -- or they are breeders that selectively breed for aggression, hoping to fight the offspring, or use them for guard dogs.

Factor Three - Who owns them and how they are trained. Responsible breeders make sure that they sell their dogs to people that are able to handle a strong tenacious dog, and who are ready and willing to properly train them. Backyard breeders just look for people to buy their dogs, and don't bother asking questions. And breeders breeding for aggression are likely to be selling their dogs to others with the same vision for the dog.

So given those three factors, and given that most people really don't know how to properly train any dog, much less than a power breed, my suggestion is that you hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. I would not put my dogs (or cat) in a position where they could be attacked by the neighbors dog. I would be very careful with children, and it's advised that all children learn how to act around any dog - like don't act like prey - running and screaming is dangerous, even in play. I'd also talk to my neighbor about my concerns. The best way to start that is to admire his dog. He'll probably gladly tell you all about him - and you can decipher a lot about the dog by what he tells you.


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## SkiGirl (Jan 22, 2007)

Well we did ask him because his dog was trying to jump our fence to get to our dog . HE said the dog is very nice it just doesnt like other dogs in which my husband was pretty upfront in the fact we have a baby and we don't want his dog to jump our fence he seemed nice aobut it but I guess its not his it's his son's who doesnt live there . I don't have a problem with the breed I had a friend who had them and they were nice dogs however they do scare me and I feel crappy saying that they just do however I don't really trust any dog when it comes to my son . For example we have a chihuahua and she bit him in the face she only weighs about 3 pounds but she still hurt him she is going to petsmart for training next week lol


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

After all I've read about breeders, there is NO WAY I would ever get a pit bull and would not like one being next door.

If I can't even get a "reputable" breeder to figure out how to produce healthy Golden pups, how would I ever trust someone to produce a pit bull that isn't prone to aggressiveness? The whole business is pretty shady to me. Apologies to those of you who are truly good at what you do...
"Bad dogs, bad owner", etc. Yes, that is partly correct. But I wouldn't trust that a "good owner" would be able to overcome any genetic traits. Pit bulls are powerful animals and can turn without a moment's notice. Everyone always says, "Oh, not my dog. He's a sweetheart." Yeah, right.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

I really think DA hit it on the head.
Every breed is personal choice


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

SkiGirl said:


> Well we did ask him because his dog was trying to jump our fence to get to our dog . HE said the dog is very nice it just doesnt like other dogs in which my husband was pretty upfront in the fact we have a baby and we don't want his dog to jump our fence he seemed nice aobut it but I guess its not his it's his son's who doesnt live there . I don't have a problem with the breed I had a friend who had them and they were nice dogs however they do scare me and I feel crappy saying that they just do however I don't really trust any dog when it comes to my son . For example we have a chihuahua and she bit him in the face she only weighs about 3 pounds but she still hurt him she is going to petsmart for training next week lol


Don't buy into the idea that it's not your neighbors dog. If he is harboring the dog, then he's responsible for it, and/or any damages it might do.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Dobies, Rotts, and GSD have been where the Pitts are now. As soon as the media gets tired of concentrating on these dogs all the hype will be directed at another breed.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> HE said the dog is very nice *it just doesnt like other dogs*


A pit bull next door wouldn't necessarily worry me. I've met some very sweet ones. 

A pit bull that the owner admits doesn't like other dogs would scare the **** out of me. 

I'd ask the owner if they'd consider putting up a higher fence, or even ask if they'd like to go halfsies with you on a fence. If they refused, though, I'd want an 8ft stockade fence between an agressive pit and my yard, and would put it up myself if I had to.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> If persons who love dogs feel this way, those of us who enjoy the hobby of purebred dogs are doomed.
> 
> Your statements are just so wrong, it is so upsetting to realize that people really do think this way.
> 
> ...


But they do turn on a moments notice. If a dog is bred to be protective (like my Dobie) it will turn from a sweet lovable dog to a sharp, cautious, and jumpy animal. You cant train the dog to avoid what is in-bedded in their genes.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> But they do turn on a moments notice. If a dog is bred to be protective (like my Dobie) it will turn from a sweet lovable dog to a sharp, cautious, and jumpy animal. You cant train the dog to avoid what is in-bedded in their genes.


I may be wrong, but I took that to mean that they don't turn without warning that could be read by those knowledgeable about dogs. I've seen dogs give subtle signs through body language that they are about to attack, that their owner/handlers totally missed. I think most people tend to be so busy saying "he wouldn't hurt anyone" that they miss the clues just before he does hurt someone.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

I have owned them for over 30 years. They are good dogs. Now days it is a little harder to find a breeder that cares what they breed.I would be very careful about who i bought one from now. A well bred pit is not people aggressive and mosy certainly would not turn on their owner. That is just crazy. The only fault a pit has, is they will become anything their owners want them to become. Dog aggressive yes,some more than others. The problem is just stupid people,and uneducated owners.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

All animals will give off sings of what they are going to do. You just have to learn how to read it. Once you do and pay even 1/2 attention to the animal you will know what they are going to do.

Heidi


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## SkiGirl (Jan 22, 2007)

Lorina said:


> A pit bull next door wouldn't necessarily worry me. I've met some very sweet ones.
> 
> A pit bull that the owner admits doesn't like other dogs would scare the **** out of me.
> 
> I'd ask the owner if they'd consider putting up a higher fence, or even ask if they'd like to go halfsies with you on a fence. If they refused, though, I'd want an 8ft stockade fence between an agressive pit and my yard, and would put it up myself if I had to.



yeah that's what I thought we are putting a fence up this summer not just because of the dog but because we dont want our dogs jumping the fence when they get bigger lol



RedyreRottweilers said:


> My dogs are quite correct in temperament.
> 
> They are never sharp or jumpy. Cautious, yes. Early training and socialization is important with breeds that can be territorial or have guarding tendencies.
> 
> ...


The guy on the otherside has a rott and she is a dollbaby however she stays on a chain but from what i can tell petting her she's really sweet.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

To be honest, I have not had great dog experiences with terrier breeds in general. I find that most people who do have terrier breeds, whether it is the larger breeds, or the smaller, don't take the time and effort to properly train and socialize them. 

The only really great pit I've met happened to be a lab/pit mix, who was the SWEETEST girl, ever. She was absolutely beautiful- a red color with white feet and the bluest eyes I've ever seen (ok, so she was probably a Heinz 57, but she looked mostly pity) 

She was also just wonderful with other dogs, but she'd also been taken to puppy class, then obedience, then obedience ii. 

In my opinion, if a person is going to have a dog like a pit, they should take all proper precautions. They should educate EVERYONE around them with their dog, and encourage great amounts of great socialization. 

In my opinion, pit bull owners should go out of their way to have the sweetest, most well behaved pet on the street. They should make the example, just to prove to other people that pit bulls can be sweet, well socialized and controled animals. 

If their dog shows aggression, they should buy that 7 foot fence or that public muzzle and be responsible. They should love their dogs and the breed enough to do the safe thing. 

All of the pits that Orchid and I had the "pleasure" of meeting in dog parks or just on the street have been terribly aggressive- pulling their owners towards us in some cases, or just full out attacking with the owners trying to catch them. 

That's NOT the dog's fault. It's the PEOPLE WHO OWN THEM. IF their owners had better control or at least HAD THE SENSE NOT TO TAKE A DOG AGRESSIVE DOG TO A DOG PARK then likely my heart would not skip a beat when Orchid and I pass one on the street.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Snowshoe said:


> To be honest, I have not had great dog experiences with terrier breeds in general. I find that most people who do have terrier breeds, whether it is the larger breeds, or the smaller, don't take the time and effort to properly train and socialize them.


How does this differ with other non-terrier breeds? It seems to me that most people don't train their dogs, no matter what breed they are.


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## babydolwv (Dec 5, 2006)

My best friends mother has a pit...and omg that is the sweetest dog ever and spoiled rotten as well, but she obey's her owner as well... but she is the biggest sweet heart...

and i totally agree... with any dog that is going to attack they give off some sort of signal... if the own pays enough attention he/she will know the signs and can maybe stop the incident before it happens... but then as many have said.... good owner, good dog; bad owner, bad dog....


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## SkiGirl (Jan 22, 2007)

Totally off subject here but babydoll what part of wv ? Im from around clarksburgh.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> How does this differ with other non-terrier breeds? It seems to me that most people don't train their dogs, no matter what breed they are.


This is true. 

My point was that (and this is just me) I'd rather have Orchid meet a friendly, untrained pup then an unsocialized dog aggressive dog. This is, of course, stating that both were untrained.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My take on pit bulls? I think they're good dogs, but I think all dogs are good dogs. They're definitely not the breed for me, however they're perfectly fine for people who can handle them. The problem is many pit owners do not have the dog's well being in mind all the time or do not understand the breed. Pits can be dog aggressive and a responsible owner would know this and take precautions. Obviously all owners have to take these precautions. 

So basically, pits are fine, but many owners of pits shouldn't have pits let alone any dogs...


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## Alasse (Jan 20, 2007)

Personally i wouldn't have one...not really fond of them at all

But then its a moot point for me...they are a banned breed in my city


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## mistyinca (Oct 25, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> Factor One - what they were originally selectively bred to do which is dog fighting. When a dog is selectively bred, all examples that are not desirable for that purpose are "culled" which can mean killed or just not bred. Pit bulls that attacked their owner/handlers in or out of the fighting arena were culled. Which meant that only people friendly, dog aggressive dogs were chosen to produce the next generation of pit bulls.


That seems to mean then that it is an uphill battle to selectively breed for not only the people friendly, but the dog friendly too, if the gene pool has been limited now for generations to the dog aggressive specimens.

It seems that maybe 100 or so years ago, then, there might have been a greater variation in the gene pool. If the non-dog-aggressive traits were culled, then it must be very hard to find one that has that range of traits to even select from. Of course, the job would not be any easier with the irresponsible breeders out there.

I know there are wonderful pits some people have as pets. One of the girls in my bunko group has one that I have heard is a just the sweetest dog in the world.

I, however, am still on the fearful side of them. I don't dislike the breed, but I maintain a respectful distance.


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## sucker4pups (Jan 19, 2007)

I love pitts. my one dog Rosco has pitt and german shepard in him. i think they are one of the most loyal breeds you could ever own. they are the kind of dogs i would think to see on those animal rescue miracle shows where the dog rescues their owner. another part with being so loyal is they are very protective so if you are not getting your pitt out their and socialized you probally will have a problem. Rosco is great with people and other dogs when we are out at the dog park or on dog hikes and stuff. but when he hears someone come in through are gate of our home he hits my front door so hard i think he is going to bust through the glass! i think it is just a pitts nature to be a protective loyal dog. when our guests are inside he is so loving twards them. i think it is the fear of the unknown at first of who is at the door, and if i want that person to be their!


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

MagicToller said:


> Wonderful dog, stupid people.


Very nicely said..

If I didnt live where I live (and APT and they dont let me have a pit ) I would totally consider one .. IS my life style would be good for him....

ANyways! I do hate when people are soo mean to them . 

Its alll in the training...agh ..people....people....



mistyinca said:


> That seems to mean then that it is an uphill battle to selectively breed for not only the people friendly, but the dog friendly too, if the gene pool has been limited now for generations to the dog aggressive specimens.
> 
> It seems that maybe 100 or so years ago, then, there might have been a greater variation in the gene pool. If the non-dog-aggressive traits were culled, then it must be very hard to find one that has that range of traits to even select from. Of course, the job would not be any easier with the irresponsible breeders out there.
> 
> ...


I am actually not quotingMistyinca but the quote DogAdvocat said.... YEs they were bred for fighting well beagles were bred for hunting ..doesnt mean they are going to kill cats and rabits (sorry my spelling..kinda early)


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

iwantmypup said:


> YEs they were bred for fighting well beagles were bred for hunting ..doesnt mean they are going to kill cats and rabits (sorry my spelling..kinda early)


Sorry, in defense of the beagle, they weren't bred to kill...the hunters did that. Beagles were bred to track (with their nose), and I personally have never known a beagle who refused to track or chase prey. I had a basset who would chase cats, but once cornered, he didn't have a clue what to do with it, so he'd simple let it go to chase it again. Sorry, I had to point that out.


Bad Rap : Bay Area Doglovers Responsible About Pitbulls


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> My dogs are quite correct in temperament.
> 
> They are never sharp or jumpy. Cautious, yes. Early training and socialization is important with breeds that can be territorial or have guarding tendencies.
> 
> ...


Why would I go and train the dog to be something its not? The reason I got him is to have those characteristics and I would be an idiot to try and suppress them


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I also would never really look for a Pitbull or amstaff as a pet... No reason for it, just not my breeds. On that note I wouldnt get a shih tzu or a pom either.
And toboot pits are banned province wide here, stupidity I know, but gotta love Ontario... the dog hating province. ( rolling eyes)


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

sucker4pups said:


> I love pitts. my one dog Rosco has pitt and german shepard in him. i think they are one of the most loyal breeds you could ever own. they are the kind of dogs i would think to see on those animal rescue miracle shows where the dog rescues their owner. another part with being so loyal is they are very protective so if you are not getting your pitt out their and socialized you probally will have a problem. Rosco is great with people and other dogs when we are out at the dog park or on dog hikes and stuff. but when he hears someone come in through are gate of our home he hits my front door so hard i think he is going to bust through the glass! i think it is just a pitts nature to be a protective loyal dog. when our guests are inside he is so loving twards them. i think it is the fear of the unknown at first of who is at the door, and if i want that person to be their!


What happens if you ever are in need of paramedics? Are they going to be safely able to come through the door if you aren't able to handle the dog?



iwantmypup said:


> I am actually not quotingMistyinca but the quote DogAdvocat said.... YEs they were bred for fighting well beagles were bred for hunting ..doesnt mean they are going to kill cats and rabits (sorry my spelling..kinda early)


A beagle might not kill a cat or rabbit, but why would you want to take a chance? When a breed is selectively bred to do a job, should it surprise anyone that a dog of that breed actually does that job?

One of the things that's advised to those planning on buying or adopting a dog is to do their homework and consider what the breed they want, was originally bred for. Dachshunds, for instance, and some of the terrier breeds, were bred to "go to ground" and dig in the search for prey. It's not impossible to keep a dachshund from digging, but they have been selectively bred to do it, so it's going to be difficult and just isn't advised for those that value their landscaping.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

DogAdvocat said:


> What happens if you ever are in need of paramedics? Are they going to be safely able to come through the door if you aren't able to handle the dog?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I am sorry if i gget this worng but are you saying NO one in the world should get a Pit Bull for instance because they were bred as fighting dogs?


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

iwantmypup said:


> I am sorry if i gget this worng but are you saying NO one in the world should get a Pit Bull for instance because they were bred as fighting dogs?


No, what I'm saying is that no one should get a pit bull, or any other dog, from an irresponsible breeder. It's the irresponsible breeders that are producing bad quality dogs and placing them in inappropriate homes that won't properly train them. Responsible breeders are selectively breeding the dog aggression out of pit bulls, and the human aggression has always been taboo.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

DogAdvocat said:


> No, what I'm saying is that no one should get a pit bull, or any other dog, from an irresponsible breeder. It's the irresponsible breeders that are producing bad quality dogs and placing them in inappropriate homes that won't properly train them. Responsible breeders are selectively breeding the dog aggression out of pit bulls, and the human aggression has always been taboo.


oh oknow i get it..sorry .. I get so frusterated....really sorry

Me


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

No problem.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Personally I see absolutely nothing appealing about the PB's. They appear to me as a well below average looking dog that is made of pure muscle and is a perfect fighting machine. 

I personally just don't see any reason for having one unless you are tryng to protect yourself from other dogs. 

Don't be too fast to think I single out PB's because I also find very few dogs as beautiful as the German Shepherds that I have had. 

Any dog can be made mean and the people that train and raise them certainly are important but it is my opinion that the PB is the perfect terminator and I wouldn't want my child alone with one. I have friends that have many PB's and they love them and I can tolerate them when visiting but I never feel comfortable. I can handle any German Shepherd but the PB is one strong muscle with vice-grip jaws without a tail to alert you to it's moods.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Personally I see absolutely nothing appealing about the PB's. They appear to me as a well below average looking dog that is made of pure muscle and is a perfect fighting machine.
> 
> I personally just don't see any reason for having one unless you are tryng to protect yourself from other dogs.
> 
> ...


Why dont you feel comfortable with one? did you personally get bit by one or are you just thinking about whats on the news?


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Don't be too fast to think I single out PB's because I also find very few dogs as beautiful as the German Shepherds that I have had.


As a counter-point, the first dog I was ever attacked by was a German Shepherd. The only dog that ever put me in the emergency room for stitches was a German Shepherd (different one). I won't compare GSDs to pitbulls, but I've found GSDs to be a bit unpredictable and the one's I've dealt with have given very few indications that they were about to attack. This is only my experience, and has nothing to do with the breed as a whole.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Good question Iwantapup, 

My answer is simply:

They are bred for fighting!
They are all muscle and jaws.
They don't have a tail to wag! 

I am very strong and can pick most dogs up by their necks if needed! My son has picked up a 150lb Burmise Mountain Dog that was attaching my German Shepherd and gotten him under control in seconds. I doubt that would have been as easy had it been a PB. A pit bull has very little area to get ahold of them if needed because they are so bulky. 

I just plain don't like them and prefer dogs bred to protect and guard people and breeds that get along with other dogs. 

If you ever had a good German Shepherd you would completely understand. They come with brains, loyalty, protect you family from babies on up without fear of them attaching them. They get along well with other dogs and in my experience only need to be watched when strangers are approaching because they are very protective to their complete family, including other animals.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Good question Iwantapup,
> 
> My answer is simply:
> 
> ...


Most the GSD's i have met have been highly dog agressive. I think that it depends on the dog. Iv'e seen some shepherds that were more dog agressive than any pit.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Let's please not make this a "my dog is better than your dog thread". That will only cause people to be offended, and frankly I was done with that kind of stuff in middle school. Thank you.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> *If you ever had a good German Shepherd you would completely understand. *They come with brains, loyalty, protect you family from babies on up without fear of them attaching them. They get along well with other dogs and in my experience only need to be watched when strangers are approaching because they are very protective to their complete family, including other animals.


But that's the whole point with any breed. "If you ever had a good" one. The problem is, there are far too many, of all breeds, that aren't good because they've been badly bred and badly managed. If you compare a well bred and well trained dog of any breed with any other breed, it would simply come down to personal preference, with no breed being better than another.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Let's please not make this a "my dog is better than your dog thread". That will only cause people to be offended, and frankly I was done with that kind of stuff in middle school. Thank you.


OK  But MY dog is the best !!!!


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## Six (Jan 24, 2007)

Speaking from experience. I thought that I had the perfect bully breed. Sugar was not dog aggressive nor was she ever aggressive to anyone she ever encountered. But one day she just snapped and growled at my baby girl while she was climbing on the couch. She did it several times after that one incident and well, she had to go. I think that there are very few quality bully breeders left in the world which really scares me.


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## GitSol (Jan 22, 2007)

Interesting thread...

I really can't comment on personal experience seeing as I have never met a Pitbull (Banned under the DDA in the UK). 

From what I've read and heard about them they sound like lovely people dogs. I do, however, think that Pitbulls can be ruined by bad breeding, lack of socialisation and poor handling. 

One of the major problems we have with Pits in the UK is that they are banned. I think that breed specific legislation causes all sorts of problems - it drives breeding underground so that the few responsible breeders stop breeding and the backyard breeders and illegal fighting breeders take over making the situation a whole lot worse. But that's another dicussion all together...

They wouldn't be my choice of breed but neither would a border collie or a Maltese  . That's just my personal preference - for example; my favourite breed is the Newfoundland whereas for many people they are nightmare dogs because of the hair and drool.  With responsible breeding and the right owner I'm sure they make wonderful pets.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

GitSol said:


> Interesting thread...
> 
> 
> One of the major problems we have with Pits in the UK is that they are banned. I think that breed specific legislation causes all sorts of problems - it drives breeding underground so that the few responsible breeders stop breeding and the backyard breeders and illegal fighting breeders take over making the situation a whole lot worse. But that's another dicussion all together...
> .


That is so very true. The ban has attracted all the wrong people. People that shouldn't have ANY dogs.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

DogAdvocat said:


> OK  But MY dog is the best !!!!


LOL We will see aboutthat..when i get my pup he will be the king of the forums..hehe Just Kidding!


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Good question Iwantapup,
> 
> My answer is simply:
> 
> ...


Oh okies.... Yess If i had one..i would like a good trained one...but one wouldnt fit in my apartment hhehe.. But i heard they are very agrresive..im sure a trained good one wouldnt be thougha


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## cdubb68 (Jan 24, 2007)

Good article here:
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060206fa_fact

To paraphrase, it basically says that people can learn a lot about stereotyping via the way we do it to dogs. Our quick judgement of similar groups of people/dogs ends up biting us in the a**, no pun intended. 

I have a full grown pit and a 3 month old. Both are properly socialized, which is EXTREMELY important with pits especially. However, I would be f*ing crazy to trust ANY dog around kids unsupervised. Some say GSDs would never attack a child...to that I say "do more research." As soon as the media and irresponsible owners/breeders are done exploiting the pit bull there will be another icon of carnage. It used to be dobes, then rotts...right now it is the pit so don't fall for the hype. I think all the hysteria would be a GOOD thing if people would think for themselves and not allow the media to do it for them. It would be good because pit bulls right now are a wake up call to dog owners that dogs are just that--dogs! Because we are people, we cannot understand their needs exactly and thus should not be so exclusively trusting or distrusting of ANY breed...you just have to be responsible. On a final note BSL is terrible. Stats have already shown that when you try to ban one breed, their breeding goes underground and bite statistics for another breed immediately take the place of the banned ones.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> OK  But MY dog is the best !!!!


LOL. Fair enough.


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## Angel69nznz (Jan 24, 2007)

I have personally never had an issue with Pit Bulls, the ones I've met have been beautiful friendly dogs. However, I spoke to a Dog Psychologist who has been studying dog behavior for over 25 years about the breed and he gave me the so called psychology behind the breed, here's what he said: Because Pit Bulls were originally bred for fighting they have a behaviour pattern unlike any other dog, when we introduce a dog into our home one of the first things we do (or are supposed to do) is assert dominance over it, to gain respect, and this is a relatively easy thing to do, unfortunately Pit Bulls can not traditionally be dominated, owners think they have the dog dominated and they argue the point till they are blue in the face, or they think they are "Alpha" but in Pits this is damn near genetically impossible, what can then happen is when the dog feels its dominance threatened by anyone, whether the owner or someone else, they turn, this can happen at any time, for any reason, or may never happen at all, MAY being the operative word. He cringes every time he hears someone say "My pitbull is great with my kids" because whilst they are great with very small children, this is because the little ones pose absolutely no threat at all to them, unfortunately children grow up, and this is where Pit Bull attacks on children happen, all of a sudden the child gets bigger and starts trying to tell the dog what to do and all hell breaks loose. Pit Bulls are a banned breed in my country for this reason, doesn't stop anyone getting their hands on them, my town alone is rife with them. This is not a post to down the breed, I personally love all dogs, the point that the Psychologist was trying to make with me is that they absolutely cannot be trusted, many live and die without attacking, but unfortunately it can be the smallest trigger that can make them feel their dominance is threatened and they attack, and it doesn't matter how long they have been in a family and how "well" they have been trained and treated, its simply their makeup, they don't do it on purpose, its an instinct. Hope this helps, and again, I'm quoting what this Dog Phychologist told me, take what you want from it.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Angel69nznz said:


> I have personally never had an issue with Pit Bulls, the ones I've met have been beautiful friendly dogs. However, I spoke to a Dog Psychologist who has been studying dog behavior for over 25 years about the breed and he gave me the so called psychology behind the breed, here's what he said: Because Pit Bulls were originally bred for fighting they have a behaviour pattern unlike any other dog, when we introduce a dog into our home one of the first things we do (or are supposed to do) is assert dominance over it, to gain respect, and this is a relatively easy thing to do, unfortunately Pit Bulls can not traditionally be dominated, owners think they have the dog dominated and they argue the point till they are blue in the face, or they think they are "Alpha" but in Pits this is damn near genetically impossible, what can then happen is when the dog feels its dominance threatened by anyone, whether the owner or someone else, they turn, this can happen at any time, for any reason, or may never happen at all, MAY being the operative word. He cringes every time he hears someone say "My pitbull is great with my kids" because whilst they are great with very small children, this is because the little ones pose absolutely no threat at all to them, unfortunately children grow up, and this is where Pit Bull attacks on children happen, all of a sudden the child gets bigger and starts trying to tell the dog what to do and all hell breaks loose. Pit Bulls are a banned breed in my country for this reason, doesn't stop anyone getting their hands on them, my town alone is rife with them. This is not a post to down the breed, I personally love all dogs, the point that the Psychologist was trying to make with me is that they absolutely cannot be trusted, many live and die without attacking, but unfortunately it can be the smallest trigger that can make them feel their dominance is threatened and they attack, and it doesn't matter how long they have been in a family and how "well" they have been trained and treated, its simply their makeup, they don't do it on purpose, its an instinct. Hope this helps, and again, I'm quoting what this Dog Phychologist told me, take what you want from it.


Ahh i sees tyty thanks yousa!!thanksz!


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Oh isn't that nice... Two pit bulls attached a man and his Jack Russel today in Ohio.. Really nice dogs... everyone should have one. We could cut down the population problems, no need to neuter, just let those pits run and attack.. Great dogs!!!!!!!!!!! Have terror will travel... Have a Pit Bull...


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Oh isn't that nice... Two pit bulls attached a man and his Jack Russel today in Ohio.. Really nice dogs... everyone should have one. We could cut down the population problems, no need to neuter, just let those pits run and attack.. Great dogs!!!!!!!!!!! Have terror will travel... Have a Pit Bull...


OK number one we do not need your sarcasm because this is not a joke! this is a real issue so congrats for you and your shepherds . but no need to rain on Other peoples parade when the might have a great pit bull *Not allll pitbulls attack! *


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Oh isn't that nice... Two pit bulls attached a man and his Jack Russel today in Ohio.. Really nice dogs... everyone should have one. We could cut down the population problems, no need to neuter, just let those pits run and attack.. Great dogs!!!!!!!!!!! Have terror will travel... Have a Pit Bull...


It's too bad the news media doesn't sensationalize irresponsible breeding like they do dog attacks. I'm no geneticist, but I would imagine if all pit bull breeders were forced to be responsible, in a matter of a decade the temperment of the pit bull could be altered enough to be even more favorable than your beloved GSD. Because no one seems to realize that's what a responsible pit bull breeder does. But I won't hold my breath for that story.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Oh isn't that nice... Two pit bulls attached a man and his Jack Russel today in Ohio.. Really nice dogs... everyone should have one. We could cut down the population problems, no need to neuter, just let those pits run and attack.. Great dogs!!!!!!!!!!! Have terror will travel... Have a Pit Bull...


The problem with citing these stories, and condemning a whole breed because of a news report is the your own breed is subject to the same stories. Now if you are to be fair, you'll condemn all German Shepherds because of this news item:

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...5F7522C6B0C8FC7C862572660011BF29?OpenDocument


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

The problem i have with this is, was it 2 pit bulls or a pit mix or was it pit at all. A lot of people can not pick a pit out of a bunch of dogs if their life's depended on it. If it's color looks pit or it's build looks pit, then it must be a pit. The media reports the news as it is told, so if some one say's they were pits(then i guess that must be true) NOT.......... They are great dogs if bred right and raised right. Yes they can be your worst nightmare if not. I would not stick up for them if i did not know the breed as well as i do. I have lived with them all my life. This breed is very close to my heart and it sicken's me to no end seeing what the BYB and stupid owners are doing to it. It is not the dog, i repeat it is not the dog.... It's bad breeders and stupid owner's that are taking a very loving breed and making it bad...


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

The problem with citing these stories, and condemning a whole breed because of a news report is the your own breed is subject to the same stories. Now if you are to be fair, you'll condemn all German Shepherds because of this news item: By Dogadvocate...............


You are absolutely right Dogadvocate, If I continued to see these types of stories like you pointed out I would condemn them. Fortunately this is the first article I have seen about a German Shepherd. I have had them since I was 5 years old and will quickly admidt that you have to be careful when strangers are first introduced to them but as far as seeing horror stories day after day, it just isn't happening... Show me story after story, day after day and I will condemn them regardless of them being my favorite animal. I love dogs , but I love people more... 

This is like comparing oranges to apples... Lets be honest now and stop trying to sugar coat the Pit Bull ....:


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

GitSol said:


> I think that breed specific legislation causes all sorts of problems - it drives breeding underground so that the few responsible breeders stop breeding and the backyard breeders and illegal fighting breeders take over making the situation a whole lot worse. But that's another dicussion all together...


The same irresponsible breeders continue to breed underground, effectively making the breed exactly what people fear. There would no longer be confusion about good or bad, they'd all be bad. I guess at least that way the good dogs wouldn't be targetted along with the bad, because there wouldn't be any good ones. 

Which is why I think it's so important to stop protesting BSLs and start promoting BREEDER Specific Laws. Promote the good and get rid of the bad breeders. Develop legislation that would support good breeding practices and outlaw irresponsibility - in all breeds.



German Shepherd Lover said:


> The problem with citing these stories, and condemning a whole breed because of a news report is the your own breed is subject to the same stories. Now if you are to be fair, you'll condemn all German Shepherds because of this news item: By Dogadvocate...............
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right Dogadvocate, If I continued to see these types of stories like you pointed out I would condemn them. Fortunately this is the first article I have seen about a German Shepherd. I have had them since I was 5 years old and will quickly admidt that you have to be careful when strangers are first introduced to them but as far as seeing horror stories day after day, it just isn't happening... Show me story after story, day after day and I will condemn them regardless of them being my favorite animal. I love dogs , but I love people more...
> ...


I have no interest in targetting any breed with negativity, so a day-after-day search isn't in my plans. HOWEVER, doesn't it strike you odd that it only took me a minute to find that story about a GSD attack on google? And it's a current story, not something from months ago. So my point remains, if you don't want your breed targetted (and it did used to be a breed that was feared), then don't you think it unfair to target other breeds as a whole? Should I assume that since I found this story so easily, that ALL GSDs are bad?



cdubb68 said:


> To paraphrase, it basically says that people can learn a lot about stereotyping via the way we do it to dogs. Our quick judgement of similar groups of people/dogs ends up biting us in the a**, no pun intended.


And yet a certain amount of stereotyping is acceptable and common in the dog world. We accept that the various breeds will follow the breed type that they were originally bred for. Border Collies herd, Dachshunds dig, Bassets follow their nose wherever it may lead, etc. etc. We advise people when they are choosing a breed, that they consider the stereotypes of the different breeds to find the right one for their lifestyle.


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## gilbertsmom (Jan 5, 2007)

I worked as a dog groomer for eight years. We groomed Pit Bulls, but only if the owner put a muzzle on them before they even entered the grooming room. It wasn't only because they were a so-called


> aggressive breed


. It was the idea that if they did attack, they are capable of doing sooo much damage. Not a chance we could take in the shop. In eight years I was bit five times. Three Cockers, a Lhasa and a Shih Tzu. (Those flat face muzzles really don't work well at all!) Didn't get a lot of GSDs in the shop. But in walking my own dogs, they have been attacked twice-by German Shepards (different dogs). I'm sure smaller dogs bite way more often, we just don't hear about it since they usually don't do as much damage.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Angel69nznz said:


> I have personally never had an issue with Pit Bulls, the ones I've met have been beautiful friendly dogs. However, I spoke to a Dog Psychologist who has been studying dog behavior for over 25 years about the breed and he gave me the so called psychology behind the breed, here's what he said: Because Pit Bulls were originally bred for fighting they have a behaviour pattern unlike any other dog, when we introduce a dog into our home one of the first things we do (or are supposed to do) is assert dominance over it, to gain respect, and this is a relatively easy thing to do, unfortunately Pit Bulls can not traditionally be dominated, owners think they have the dog dominated and they argue the point till they are blue in the face, or they think they are "Alpha" but in Pits this is damn near genetically impossible, what can then happen is when the dog feels its dominance threatened by anyone, whether the owner or someone else, they turn, this can happen at any time, for any reason, or may never happen at all, MAY being the operative word.


Does he factor in that they were originally bred to be "dog aggressive" and not "people aggressive"? Human alpha over these dogs was a must or they were culled. The handlers HAD to be able to pull the dogs apart. If you've ever seen any fight footage (which is truly gruesome), the dogs are frenzied to get at each other, and they never turn on the handlers who have their hands right on them. Normally, people are warned to never get between two fighting dogs of any breed (been there, done that), and yet the fight handlers did it all the time when separating the dogs.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> The problem with citing these stories, and condemning a whole breed because of a news report is the your own breed is subject to the same stories. Now if you are to be fair, you'll condemn all German Shepherds because of this news item: By Dogadvocate...............
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right Dogadvocate, If I continued to see these types of stories like you pointed out I would condemn them. Fortunately this is the first article I have seen about a German Shepherd. I have had them since I was 5 years old and will quickly admidt that you have to be careful when strangers are first introduced to them but as far as seeing horror stories day after day, it just isn't happening... Show me story after story, day after day and I will condemn them regardless of them being my favorite animal. I love dogs , but I love people more...
> ...


I cant believe you think Dogadvocat is trying to sugar coat the pit bull. While you saying that the GSD are the best...they have attacked people and maybe that wont make you love them less but dont get all mad at the people who love PB's saying they are the besst// I mean come on!



German Shepherd Lover said:


> The problem with citing these stories, and condemning a whole breed because of a news report is the your own breed is subject to the same stories. Now if you are to be fair, you'll condemn all German Shepherds because of this news item: By Dogadvocate...............
> 
> 
> You are absolutely right Dogadvocate, If I continued to see these types of stories like you pointed out I would condemn them. Fortunately this is the first article I have seen about a German Shepherd. I have had them since I was 5 years old and will quickly admidt that you have to be careful when strangers are first introduced to them but as far as seeing horror stories day after day, it just isn't happening... Show me story after story, day after day and I will condemn them regardless of them being my favorite animal. I love dogs , but I love people more...
> ...


Oko ok lets be honest.. do you seriously think that pit bulls are horrible? And if anyone you are seriously sugar coating the gsd so dont even


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

I felt that an honest answer was deserved to the original author of this post and that is what I have inserted..... 

If you want a Pit Bull, by all means have one........ 

I will stick with my German Sheperds.....


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> I felt that an honest answer was deserved to the original author of this post and that is what I have inserted.....


I prefer your honest opinion GSL. To have a enlightning discussion, there has to be a difference in understanding or opinion. To pose only one side of an argument doesn't give an unobjective reader anything to think about.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> Fortunately this is the first article I have seen about a German Shepherd.


Then you did not venture far enough.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Maybe according to Majictoller I didn't venture far enough, but I didn't have to leave the port to find the articles about the PB's, now did I ?


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Maybe according to Majictoller I didn't venture far enough, but I didn't have to leave the port to find the articles about the PB's, now did I ?


My boat was still tied to the dock when I found the GSD article.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Ooh hmm lookey here what i found just by going "German Shepherd attack" and on the first page and number three " 


Little Boy Mauled by German Shepherd

by Steve, Friday, July 22, 2005 

I don't normally blog about specific dog attack cases, but I wanted to point this one out, in light of "gestapo-style tactics" targeted towards owners of pit bulls.

In this case, a six-year old boy in St. Joseph, Saskatchewan, was mauled by a german shepherd. The dog, which belonged to a neighbor, put deep cuts into the boy's face, around his left-eye. He will be requiring plastic surgery.

As a result, the mother wants the town to force all dog owners to keep their dogs "locked up". AS IF, laws in Saskatchewan permit dog owners to let their pooches run wild.

Well, I don't know what the laws are in SK, or in St. Joseph, but if I assume the city and/or the province already has laws against free-roaming dogs, then punishing all dog owners for the sins of just one, is retarded. The town needs more law enforcement officers, not more laws.

But this points out that targeting pit bull owners in an effort to prevent dog attacks, is short-sighted. Any breed can attack. Thus, as long as there are irresponsible dog owners, there will continue to be dog attacks.

In a free society, people will instinctively test the limits of freedom. That's why we have law enforcement officers, and this is why we need more of them. Creating more laws to address lawbreakers, is an oxymoron. '"


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

I still wouldn't have a Pit Bull and will continue to have German Shepherds. 

I would although have any, and I mean any dog that I owned, be quickly destroyed if it ever turned on any person for no reason. 

The only justification I would ever let a dog have to turn on a human is when he is actually protected someone from a real and not perceived threat. That is what a well trained dog is all about... 

I didn't even have to do a search for the article about the PIT Bull in Ohio today.... It appeared on the TV all by itself... 

Still wouldn't own a Pit Bull.. Enjoy yours and don't turn your back!!!!!


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> Maybe according to Majic Troller I didn't venture far enough, but I didn't have to leave the port to find the articles about the PB's, now did I ?


Perhaps you miscomprehend. I'm not in this to win a little piss contest like a fourth grader.

Yes, Pitbulls are notoriously accused for being bully breeds. Fluctuating trends in this country have knocked down _your own_ breed from the number one slot, and pushed up Rotties and Pits. The point in the advocacy here is yes, opinions are a right of passage, but commenting as you did in blind flame against this breed is simply stupid and ignorant. How will we ever have a day when the lovers of the breed can freely enjoy their dogs (although there are those who are blessed enough to have this freedom) in peace without the fear of hearing their beloved breed on the headline of yet another attack? Shouldn't we be targeting the people who breed dogs for aggression and ignore socialization and training? Germans Shepherds were once an icon of fear and a mindless taste for blood. It has taken alot of people to try to change this, and in many ways it's worked.. although I can't say it's true for everyone and all areas. The point is that there needs to be a breech of ignorance here. 

Yes, Pits are a fighting breed, to deny so is to ignore their heritage. But screaming bloody mary and ostracising will not solve this problem. Many people successuly train and properly socialize their pitbulls to be wonderful family pets and working dogs. This can be done.

You love people more? Yeah, alot of us do. But it's the people to blame here. Not the dogs.

Let's bring on the knowledge and stop the stupidity.


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## cdubb68 (Jan 24, 2007)

GSD Lover, I'm glad you're so fond of your breed. Just FYI, I have nothing but bad experiences with GSDs. I was bitten severely on the hand when I was 6, putting my hand through the neighboring fence that surrounded a hydraulic equipment boneyard. Later in my teens when I moved, another neighborhood GSD was eventually destroyed from absolutely TORMENTING residents as it was never leashed or fenced in. I am very involved in politics and have seen MANY-a-police dog brutality video clips and find them mortifying. However, I am confident that I could raise a GSD to be a perfectly sedate, loving pet. I would never alienate your beloved breed like you have to mine just because the dog falls into irresponsible hands more often than not. Have you ever seen ATTS temperament test results? I hate to tell you that GSDs are of much greater risk to people. Grow up.

P.S. do you believe everything you see on the news to be unbiased and factual? I would bet my last dollar that if rotts, dobes and pitts no longer existed the GSD would be the new violent dog fad.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

I too am not in this for as you say, a pissing contest, but I am not going to in anyway promote a dog that has a history of fighting and consistently makes headline news with unhappy endings. 

If one of my neighbors had a PB and it attacked my dog I wouldn't be surprised and would react accordingly. They just have a terrible reputation and if you read all of the posts even the PB owners have admitted that they have to be closely supervised and never left alone with other dogs. 

If the same stories were constantly bombarding us about any other breed, including the German Shepherd, I would feel the same way. I certainly monitor everything my GSD's do. 

Also I have to blame the dog if he bites someone since it has a brain and it did the biting. You can't always blame everthing except the real culprit. 


I have a good friend that has 7 or 8 pit bulls and he rescues them because he loves the breed and I don't have to agree with him but we are still friends. That is what friendship is all about. 



I don't understand why you think I can't comprehend the question but I never claimed to be the sharpest tack.. 

If my posts are not according rules of these forums, I will gladly drop off, These posts seem to be getting stale anyway. Good day!!


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I think...that what MT was saying was that 

*IF* a dog is poorly bred

and *IF* a dog is poorly handled

*than *those factors take the blame off of the dog. 

Do you see how those are factors that the dog can't help? 

A dog doesn't choose to be poorly bred- it doesn't choose its parents. 

A dog doesn't choose to be poorly handled- that is the fault of the people who are unable to train it. 

ANY dog can be vicious. I've known many smaller, vicious dogs who've had the same problems that the pities do now.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> If the same stories were constantly bombarding us about any other breed, including the German Shepherd, I would feel the same way. I certainly monitor everything my GSD's do.
> 
> Also I have to blame the dog if he bites someone since it has a brain and it did the biting. You can't always blame everthing except the real culprit.


Apperantly you've only been reading the pitbull stories, because Rottweilers, Dobermans, GSD's, as well as the Pit all share the heat from the public. Within the latest years, the PB has been placed on the spotlight in aggression. Increase popularity of the dog (Appealing to irresponsible people who engage in fighting, overbreeding, and abuse), increase in the number of bites and attacks.

These breeds have the predisposition to be "aggressive." Perrogative of the human.

These breeds can also be raised correctly, and public education can help rescue groups and public awareness. Again - perrogative of the human.

Yes, dogs have brains. I'm glad you realize this. But dogs, as well as a plethora of other animal classifications, are reactors to the environment. Early stimulation and socialization of the brain can lead to a healthy and stable life of a dog. 

Let's say for example, that someone snags a GSD puppy and purposefully reinforces aggressive behavior towards people and other dogs. The dog is also ill-socialized in the crutial developing periods of the brain and becomes extremely fearful and aggressive.

Did the dog for once have a chance to say "Hey Bob. Stop doing this. Please." ..? People need to stop anthropomorphing canine behavior. This is by no means a mode of sugar coating the situation of human attacks, but it just goes to show how nurture can beat our nature.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I think what I can conclude from this discussion is that it's better to side with caution, regardless of the breed. So to that point, I think GSL has every right to side with caution in regards to pitties. Personally, I don't trust any dog until I've spent some time with it, and can learn to. However, in my mind it's a sad day when breeds are spotlighted in the news for things that hint they should be banned. If it's the pitts, it will soon be the rotts, then the dobes, then the GSD's, and then whatever breed of the week that's perceived to be overly aggressive. If you think a pitt can be made aggressive, guess what a rott will become if pitts are banned...the next big headline in dog attacks. If you think bad breeders are ruining the pitt, I assure you they can do the same for the rott, or GSD, yada yada yada. But as others have pointed out, these dogs, these breeds, don't have a voice in the matter. Point your finger at the bad breed all you like, I still feel if you follow that finger you'll miss the mark. Because history tells us, that regardless if it's a pitt, a rott, a GSD, or a mini schnauzer, they all have a rich history of service to us humans that can't be denied. Whether it's protecting homesteads like pits once did (and probably still do), or sniffing out car bombs like GSD's do, or protecting businesses like dobes do, we need these dogs more than our preference. Yes, be cautious. Yes, pits do kill...but so can any dog in the wrong hands. Funny that...dogs don't have hands. So lets blame the hands, and promote...no, demand better brains to assist the hands in the proper care of our beloved pets, companions, and voiceless friends. Can we all agree to that?


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I think what I can conclude from this discussion is that it's better to side with caution, regardless of the breed. So to that point, I think GSL has every right to side with caution in regards to pitties. Personally, I don't trust any dog until I've spent some time with it, and can learn to. However, in my mind it's a sad day when breeds are spotlighted in the news for things that hint they should be banned. If it's the pitts, it will soon be the rotts, then the dobes, then the GSD's, and then whatever breed of the week that's perceived to be overly aggressive. If you think a pitt can be made aggressive, guess what a rott will become if pitts are banned...the next big headline in dog attacks. If you think bad breeders are ruining the pitt, I assure you they can do the same for the rott, or GSD, yada yada yada. But as others have pointed out, these dogs, these breeds, don't have a voice in the matter. Point your finger at the bad breed all you like, I still feel if you follow that finger you'll miss the mark. Because history tells us, that regardless if it's a pitt, a rott, a GSD, or a mini schnauzer, they all have a rich history of service to us humans that can't be denied. Whether it's protecting homesteads like pits once did (and probably still do), or sniffing out car bombs like GSD's do, or protecting businesses like dobes do, we need these dogs more than our preference. Yes, be cautious. Yes, pits do kill...but so can any dog in the wrong hands. Funny that...dogs don't have hands. So lets blame the hands, and promote...no, demand better brains to assist the hands in the proper care of our beloved pets, companions, and voiceless friends. Can we all agree to that?


Very nicely said! thank you sorry to all!


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

I guess I was wrong. Actually it seems you can grab a pit bull if it has a collar on it. 

Man Wins Fight With Vicious Pit Bull........... Conroe, Texas......

What a wonderful breed...........!!!!!

http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=a7dd33e7-8515-4526-ada5-9c3bd35cee86


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

I live next to a dog park and there have been problems with 2 of the Pit Bulls that come to the park on occasion, to the point where people leave the park when they see one coming, including me. There have also been some really bad attacks in the county where I live, by Pit Bulls.

It is also more difficult to find a place to board a pit, because many boarding places won't accept them in the city I live in.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

The pit bulls are so strong that they can break away from weaker people easily. If they aren't completely under control like any other breed should also be, they shouldn't be allowed in the park. The owners need to take better control and shouldn't be only charged with a misdemeaner but should face stronger penalties when there dogs attack someone. 

It is my experience that PBs are a bag of muscles poored into a giant jaw with excellent fighting abilities. I no longer think these skills and abilities are needed since the invent of the gun.. 

On a lighter note: I just visited the Georgia Aquarium in Atlanta and what a terrific place. The whale sharks are quite a site. I assume someone in Atlanta wouldn't miss it.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

were thewhale sharks awsome??they sound amazing


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

pit bulls should not go to dog parks and i understand why some boarding places won't take them either. They are dog aggressive. This still dose not take away the fact that they are great with people......


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

workingdog said:


> pit bulls should not go to dog parks and i understand why some boarding places won't take them either. They are dog aggressive. This still dose not take away the fact that they are great with people......



Yeah, but their owners still bring them. 

The last time we were all at a dog park, Orchid was attacked and pinned by a some kind of pit, or pit mix, or AmStaff...Honestly, I have trouble telling them apart. 

Anyway, his owner was like, "Oh, Bruno! Stop that!" and sort of stood around, wringing her hands. 

My boyfriend got a big stick and broke up the fight. The owner got angry at HIM for using a stick to break up the fight, but my bf's not one to take things sitting down. 

He was like, "Lady, if you had control of your dog, I would never have had to break up the fight. And, I don't know your dog from Adam! I certainly wasn't going to let him kill our dog just because YOU can't control him." 

The lady actually apologized at that point, and admitted that she shouldn't have brought him.


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## Samantha (Jan 19, 2007)

SkiGirl said:


> What's your take on them ? Im just asking because the next door neighbor just got one and i don't know to much about them ? Seem's like a nice puppy just hyper like ours ha



To me, Pit Bulls get a bad reputation because of things you see on TV, and the way people have them made out to be.
They're used for illegal dog fighting *Shrug* and this is what brings their bad nature behind them.

Pit Bulls are GREAT dogs if as everyone has said trained properly, and around people and taken out to public places often. 
If you're close with her I recommend letting her know this as well, that Pit Bulls are no easy task, they're strong and protective dogs!!!
And if not trained right, can snap! They're not dogs that should be tied up outside all day, or left in a crate 24/7. They're dogs that like to do things, walks, drives, the dog park (while the puppy is young, and later if its stable enough). These are all things that your neighbor should do at the earliest stage of the puppies life.

But they are great dogs, and I love them!

Also! The dog should be neutered ASAP, especially if it's a boy! This changes its attitude on a lot of things, and makes for a better, happier dog. Not to mention all the health benifits!

I would also recommend training classes for the dog!


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

"iwantmypup were thewhale sharks awsome??they sound amazing "


Yes, they were awesome to say the least. I wish I could figure a way to paste an image into this post but I can't figure out how. Also I don't know how others have boxed quotes... Any help will be appreciated.


"workingdog pit bulls should not go to dog parks and i understand why some boarding places won't take them either. They are dog aggressive. This still dose not take away the fact that they are great with people...... "

Man you dog looks strong... That is a real exhibit of what the dog is capable of. I also respect your honest accessment of the breed and sincere warnings to what to expect of the PB.. 

I wish the breed didn't have so many bad apples........probably human induced!


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> "iwantmypup were thewhale sharks awsome??they sound amazing "
> 
> 
> Yes, they were awesome to say the least. I wish I could figure a way to paste an image into this post but I can't figure out how. Also I don't know how others have boxed quotes... Any help will be appreciated.
> ...


The situation that happens alot is when a Pit Bull attacks a dog that is being walked by it's owner, and when the owner tries to defend his dog, he in turn get's bitten by the Pit Bull. The big problem with that breed is once they clamp down on you, or your pet, they will not let go. That is why I try to avoid being near one with my dog..


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I think they are beautiful. One of my favorite breeds. But I also think it takes a special kind of person to own one - they're not for everybody, and CAN be dog-aggressive, especially if they're from the wrong lines. I'd love to own one, but I know that I'm not ready to just yet. If I ever did get one, I'd probably get one that was older than 2 years from a rescue.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

workingdog pit bulls should not go to dog parks and i understand why some boarding places won't take them either. They are dog aggressive. This still dose not take away the fact that they are great with people...... "

Man you dog looks strong... That is a real exhibit of what the dog is capable of. I also respect your honest accessment of the breed and sincere warnings to what to expect of the PB..


Thank you, One thing that can not be done is hiding your head in the sand if you own a pit bull. I'm the frist one to admit, if given a chance i'm sure one of my pits would go after another dog, there for i give them NO chance to ever be able to do so. I would never take them to a dog park. I could keep my dogs on a good strong lead but some other person's dog could come over to my dog and bang there ya go. In the news again. Pits are very active you need to give them something to do, they need to tire them selfs out daily. A tired pit is a happy pit.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I have never owned a pitbull ( and most likely never will, not because I have a problem with them, but rather they just arent my breed of choice) 
I admire the good owners ( we all know what I mean there I hope) and also believe only very experienced dog owners should have them, they are not a breed for everyone... by a long shot ( however most breeds arent for everyone)
I respect Pitbulls and AmStaffs, and do not buy into "media hype" about them. My dogs had met their first ever Pit this past summer at camp, and low and behold, since she was from great lines and socialized and raised properly she did great with all 4 of my dogs. Yes they are known to be dog aggressive, but I strongly believe that not every one of them are.
*to express the amount of responsible this gurls owner was... she came to visit armed with her dogs muzzle (province wide law here) and asked if everyone was comfortable with her gurl being muzzle free. Every single one of the people who were around ( approx a dozen people)... to me that shows how she respects fears that people may have of her dog and proves as a responsible owner... that and the fact that the dog was so well behaved **


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

As some of you know, I have an APBT.

He's a year and a half and the sweetest most cuddly thing you'll ever encounter. I've been told not to leave him alone with my bitch because he will kill her someday.  Horse sh*t. I've been told once he hits 2 years old he'll become a dog eating menace. BS. I've been warned and warned again that because APBT were bred to fight other dogs he WILL eventually be DA.

I strongly disagree. My main point to the arguement is not every dog, from every breed does exactly what they were bred to do. Ex) Goldens/labs retrieve, GSD's protect, Border's herd etc.

With that being said, I'm not naive. I'm always very cautious with him and I don't totally dismiss the idea of him being dog aggressive. But in the same breath, I will not label my dog something that he is not.

Pitbulls can be great dogs like any other breed. "Bad" pitbulls can either be a direct result from environment or genetic disposition. The majority of bad pitbulls IMO are the result of their environment. With owners who are ignorant and have no intention of educating themselves, or spending the time or money required to put basic NECCESSARY training into any breed of dog, let alone the pitbull who sadly already has a terrible reputation.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Alpha said:


> As some of you know, I have an APBT.
> 
> He's a year and a half and the sweetest most cuddly thing you'll ever encounter. I've been told not to leave him alone with my bitch because he will kill her someday.  Horse sh*t. I've been told once he hits 2 years old he'll become a dog eating menace. BS. I've been warned and warned again that because APBT were bred to fight other dogs he WILL eventually be DA.
> 
> ...


You should never leave a pit alone with another dog(never) A pit dose not need a reason to fight. It will happen some day to you if you leave him alone with another dog. A pit will fight over the dumbest thing and then can turn around and be best buddies again with the dog it just jumped. If a fight ever breaks out when you are gone, you could come home to a dead dog or a pretty messed up one. Just because it hasn't happened yet, dose not mean it won't.Not a chance i would like to take.


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

workingdog said:


> You should never leave a pit alone with another dog(never) A pit dose not need a reason to fight. It will happen some day to you if you leave him alone with another dog. A pit will fight over the dumbest thing and then can turn around and be best buddies again with the dog it just jumped. If a fight ever breaks out when you are gone, you could come home to a dead dog or a pretty messed up one. Just because it hasn't happened yet, dose not mean it won't.Not a chance i would like to take.



i agree with working on this issue. our pit is a big baby but will growl and snap at our gSD or my daughters chihuhua just because they leaned against him. He will growl at the other dogs all the time for licking his face or just being in the room and he is trying to demand the attention. you can never leave ANY PIT ALONE WITH ANOTHER DOG, no matter how gentle you think they are. as they age they develop dementia like our is and you can no longer trust them the same old way and they become increasingly clingy sometimes to the point of getting under your feet and tripping you


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Iv'e seen it many times. We know a guy that would feed his male and female in the same kennel and we tryed telling him that it was just a matter of time, of corse all he could say is ( oh no!) not them, they love each other. One day they got in to it and allmost killed each other. People owning pits need to be more educated, this is not good for the pit. I'm tierd of hearing not my pit, he/she would never fight. Get your heads out of the sand. They are what they are( fighting dogs) some more than other's but do not take the chance.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I'm sorry to disagree, but this is not true. In almost all cases of dog aggressive pits it's because 1) they are neglected, 2) they are trained to fight....the chance of a pit that you have raised and loved turning on another dog out of absolutely no where is the same as a rottweiler, GSD, doberman, chow, ANY other breed suddenly turning on another dog. We have a pit mix and we actually didn't get her until she was 1 1/2 and she doesn't have an ounce of aggression in her. In fact she got attacked by a husky mix a few months ago and she just lay there and peed all over the place and took the attack! The reason people are afraid of them is because PEOPLE breed them for fighting, but if they are raised right there is as much chance they will turn 'bad' as any other dog...any dog that has been neglected, abandoned, starved, beaten, or abused in any way has a chance of turning against people and other dogs and becoming aggressive. My pit mix has been around another dog for almost year and now we have 2 cats, we've had my 3 month old nephew here tons and she loves him, she is constantly at the dog park and they can really be the sweetest dogs! Every pit I have met at and away from the dog park has had the honor of having great owners and they have been some of the sweetest dogs I've ever been around. It's the owners and not the breed, and it's totally unfair to bash a breed for what people have done to them.


But to be fair and in the case of your neighbors pit bull, I would definitely suggest that you watch out for how the dog is being treated. Ask them if it has had aggression problems towards other dogs and see how it reacts with your dogs through the fence. I would just keep an eye out for them and try to distinguish if they are the kind of people that would mistreat or train it to be a fighter. There is no denying that if it is going to be trained to protect then it will and they can be mean dogs just like any other more aggressive breeds. But just keep an eye out and a taller fence is probably a good idea here to keep your babies safe!!


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> I'm sorry to disagree, but this is not true. In almost all cases of dog aggressive pits it's because 1) they are neglected, 2) they are trained to fight....the chance of a pit that you have raised and loved turning on another dog out of absolutely no where is the same as a rottweiler, GSD, doberman, chow, ANY other breed suddenly turning on another dog. We have a pit mix and we actually didn't get her until she was 1 1/2 and she doesn't have an ounce of aggression in her. In fact she got attacked by a husky mix a few months ago and she just lay there and peed all over the place and took the attack! The reason people are afraid of them is because PEOPLE breed them for fighting, but if they are raised right there is as much chance they will turn 'bad' as any other dog...any dog that has been neglected, abandoned, starved, beaten, or abused in any way has a chance of turning against people and other dogs and becoming aggressive. My pit mix has been around another dog for almost year and now we have 2 cats, we've had my 3 month old nephew here tons and she loves him, she is constantly at the dog park and they can really be the sweetest dogs! Every pit I have met at and away from the dog park has had the honor of having great owners and they have been some of the sweetest dogs I've ever been around. It's the owners and not the breed, and it's totally unfair to bash a breed for what people have done to them.
> 
> 
> But to be fair and in the case of your neighbors pit bull, I would definitely suggest that you watch out for how the dog is being treated. Ask them if it has had aggression problems towards other dogs and see how it reacts with your dogs through the fence. I would just keep an eye out for them and try to distinguish if they are the kind of people that would mistreat or train it to be a fighter. There is no denying that if it is going to be trained to protect then it will and they can be mean dogs just like any other more aggressive breeds. But just keep an eye out and a taller fence is probably a good idea here to keep your babies safe!!


You better educate your self about pits. I have had them forever and yes we have had a few battles and it wasn't because they were tought to fight or as you say (neglected) They were bred that way. The most loving of pits will fight. As i sit here i can feel my blood boiling. I just can't beleive some people. No wonder my beloved breed is in trouble. You have a pit mix and i thank god that you don't have a purebred pit.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

My general rule of thumb: don't try to fight a dog's genetics. Its the reason our greyhounds are never trusted off leash in an unfenced area...selectively bred for generations to give chase, no amount of recall training can be 100% reliable with a greyhound (IMHO). Their thinking is chase first, ask questions later.

Seems to me that trusting a breed unsupervised with another dog when that breed has been selectively bred for generations specifically FOR dog aggression (and subsequent bad breeding that has resulted in indiscriminite aggression in some lines) is, in a word, foolish. Actually two words: extremely foolish. I have to agree with workingdog on this one.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

workingdog said:


> You better educate your self about pits. I have had them forever and yes we have had a few battles and it wasn't because they were tought to fight or as you say (neglected) They were bred that way. The most loving of pits will fight. As i sit here i can feel my blood boiling. I just can't beleive some people. No wonder my beloved breed is in trouble. You have a pit mix and i thank god that you don't have a purebred pit.


Well that I do find offensive, I have studied and am constantly studying pits and I do know a lot about them so I don't appreciate that attitude!! I know that pits are bred to fight, but NOT ALL pits will fight or even be aggressive. Have you ever talked to anyone who deals with pit aggression. Cesar Millan for instance, is a dog rehabilitator and dogs may be bred to fight but that does not mean they will unless they aren't properly socialized. Some may, but it doesn't mean that all pits will be aggressive or want to fight. Dobermand, sheperds and Rottweilers are bred to be strong and to be guard dogs or protectors, but that doesn't mean that they will attack any person for no reason. It's just not the nature of the animal to do that if they haven't been trained or programmed to do it. 
Don't think for a second that I assume pits can be 100 percent gentle and non-aggressive, but *MY* point here is that *ANY* breed can suddenly become violent, it is not just pits.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

I'm not going to battle with you. I can tell by your post that i would be wasting my time and i'm just to busy. I just hope that if you ever get a pure bred pit, that you do not leave it alone with any other dog. Just a word of advise. I won't be the one digging the hole to bury your dog or if your lucky i won't be paying a huge vet bill. Have a nice day....


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> Well that I do find offensive, I have studied and am constantly studying pits and I do know a lot about them so I don't appreciate that attitude!! I know that pits are bred to fight, but NOT ALL pits will fight or even be aggressive. Have you ever talked to anyone who deals with pit aggression. Cesar Millan for instance, is a dog rehabilitator and dogs may be bred to fight but that does not mean they will unless they aren't properly socialized. Some may, but it doesn't mean that all pits will be aggressive or want to fight. Dobermand, sheperds and Rottweilers are bred to be strong and to be guard dogs or protectors, but that doesn't mean that they will attack any person for no reason. It's just not the nature of the animal to do that if they haven't been trained or programmed to do it.
> Don't think for a second that I assume pits can be 100 percent gentle and non-aggressive, but *MY* point here is that *ANY* breed can suddenly become violent, it is not just pits.


I think what workingdog is trying to suggest is that you need to side with caution when you don't know the breeeding practices that developed your dog. Aggression can be attributed to poor breeding practices as well. So, just because you've done everything right with your dog, what you weren't able to control (breeding), can affect even the sweetest dog. For years, lines of some breeds of dog had to be abandoned because of unprovoked aggresion...some lines today should be abandoned for this same problem. So it's best to side with caution with a pit, and when the pit is considered valuable headline material, even more caution.


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## good_dog (Jan 16, 2007)

*The Good The Bad And The Ugly*

A dog is only as good as their owner. Personally, I am an owner of a one year old Rotti, and we get the same stigma attached to her..however, the difference is that we go OUT of our way to make sure that not only is she well behaved, well cleaned and well trained but that she is BETTER trained, BETTER behaved and BETTER looking than any other dog in the neighborhood, dog park, etc... because of this stigma. 

The thing with Rotti's, pitbulls...even german shepards...They are smart dogs, who are very keen to make their owners happy...how is this different from a lab or a beloved golden retriever?? The only difference is that these breeds have the muscular build in their body and their JAW, that if used in the wrong way they can be prone to attaching, IF trained to do so. I know that both Rotti's and the shepard were and are used by police for this very reason (not sure about the pit bull). Even though we have a Rotti...if we are at the dog park and someone walks in with a pit...not on a leash, obviously not controlled, etc....i will give the dog literally two mins. to change my mind before I pack up our kids and head home. 

Another woman posted and was laughing about this...i don't find it funny...i think that if you take on the responsibility of owning one of these breeds you MUST take on the responsibility to make sure that your dog is an outstanding citizen. It still won't change some peoples mind set of them...For example, it is HARD for me to warm up to German Shepards...i know they are great dogs...but my mom was a police officer and whenever we visited the station it was PRESSED on us not to play with them...that they are not PLAYING DOGS...and that has just stuck with me...i have met ONE that I've warmed up to.Even though i know they are capable of being great family pets..Anyways, thats what i think. I just makes me a little angry at people that just laugh at the fact of the breeds reputation instead of trying to better it.  

Ok, so i just read the WHOLE post...i think that in regards to dogs in general...any statement that deals with all or nothing is dangerous. 

Saying "My dog will NEVER hurt another dog." is just as dangerous as saying "ALL pitbulls are bad dogs or prone to attack".

These all or nothing statements don't get you or the breed anywhere. It's probably best the air on the side of caution with any dog...and never assume that you know your dog 100%....in refering to Ceaser Millan, he is a professional..and he's ALWAYS the first to say that they are animals and when you humanize them..."he's my baby..he'd never hurt me" you can get into trouble...CAN it's not guarenteed...

I LOVE my rotti...she's a great dog! One of the best I've ever had...BUT when we're at the dog park..there has been one time when she gave a look to another dog trying to mount her that told me to get them apart or else....
now, i'm 99% sure that she wouldn't have actually hurt the dog but that 1% of me KNOWS that she could...so i got distracted the other dog well enough with a ball to give her a chance to get out of the corner that he had put her in.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

German shepherd lover, I'm sorry but I think you are being a bit biased. I don't want to start and argument because I think that ANY dog GSD dogs included can be made bad by irresponsible people.
I work as a small animal massage therapist and sometimes will work on large breed dogs. I have the right to turn away dogs when I think they are too aggressive or not able to sit still long enough for me to work with them and I find that the breeds I most commonly turn away are labs and lab mixes, poodles, huskies and retreivers. The most common reason why I turn these dogs away is because they are just to aggressive. When their owner has to bring the to the vets with a muzzle on and on a short leash because they are nervouse about the other pets in the waiting room instead of about the vet, I'm sorry but that is the persons fault.
I am not claiming to be a model dog owner here because my dog (who is a four and a half year old maltese and toy poodle mix...not exactly a killer) is not very well socialized. She is not socialzed because the dogs in my area are big dogs. Only lately have I been meeting the good owners who have trained their dogs and Chloe is alright with these dogs because they don't mob her or try to eat her.
I have just gotten (actually saved is more like it because she was in a card board box under some bushes behind my house) a new puppy and I am finding my dog is more calm around other dogs now because of her. But lets not get too off topic.
I have been bitten and even required stiches by many dogs. One was a standard poodle, whos owner let off the leash and was un-able to do anything as she watched her dog attack myself and my dogs....who by the way were boxers.....yes a bull breed. My dog had to have 13 stitches put in the side of her face and she never once turned to bite that dog only when it bit me did she get aggressive and even then she didn't bite. I have been bitten by lasa apso's, a breed which most people don't realize was bred to be a guard dog, labrador retreiver, schnauzers (both giant and toy), a husky, chihuahua's, I could keep going but I won't. What I am trying to say is, it is not the breed we should be blaming. Yes they were ORIGINALLY bred to be fiting and bull baiting dogs but if we had more responsible owners and breeders out there there would not be so many higly publicised attacks caused by pit bulls. 
And if you check out the stats I am sure you will find the most common breed on the lists of dogs that attack people, probably is not a pit bull. And the other stat that I think is interesting is that of the FIVE MILLION attacks that occur annually, less than half are reported and of those about half of the dogs are put down or owners are punnished. I think THAT is what we should be debating and getting angry about if you ask me.
BSL is BS.


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## good_dog (Jan 16, 2007)

Cholef, I absolutly agree with you! There are a lot more types of dogs that are prone to attack, they are dogs. I do realize that my feelings towards shepards are biased....i don't turn my nose up at them, but i'm just not as quick to warm up to them. As a kid, i was the type that would walk up to every dog on the street and ask to pet them..had i done this with any police dog...shepard or anyother type..while they were working, it would have been mispercieved...thats all. I don't think they are bad dogs by ANY means..i was just trying to be honest and to not mention that i have my own biases against a breed, would have been unfair.
One question with the half of the five million that are involved in attacks, why are you angry? Because only half are punished or put down? or because the dogs are put down instead of rehabilitated? Just wondering.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I think the dogs should be given a second chance. Most dogs don't attack people because "eww they smell funny" or something petty, they bite because of fear, over-excitement, etc... The owners of a dog who has bit someone should try to find out why the dog bit and try to fix that problem. Maybe they are a nervous person and when they step outside with their dog, the dog immediately goes on the defensive and feels the need to "protect?" 
I have met people whos dogs have bitten so many people it is unbelievable and their excuses are even worse. I met a woman who had pure-bred chow chows. Her dog had bitten a little boy and her dog was ordered quarentined and destroyed because he was this dogs third victim. The lady was banned from owning dogs for several years because she never once complied with the court orders which were to give the dogs obedience training by a certified coach, heighten her fence and muzzle her dogs. She argued that she should get to keep her dogs because they were "champion pure-bred show dogs."
If she would have complied she would still have her dogs. But people are so damn lazy and so damn arrogant we just blame the dogs which is not fair and not right. If we had to destroy every animal on the face of the planet that ever hurt a human there would be no species left on the planet. Even people hurt people. Now if we can ALL collectively learn to be smart about breeding and training and even owning certain animals (for example....owning an African Lion in a small Manhatten apartment....NOT POSSIBLE DUMMY!!, banning pit bulls and other related breeds because you think they are to aggressive.....NOT PRACTICAL IDIOTS!!!!) then maybe we could get somewhere. 
Banning one breed because people use them in the wrong way will only make stupid, arrogant little punks get other dogs to train to be mean. If we keep banning breeds because we deem them to aggressive where will that get us? There won't be any dogs left and those stupid little punks will probably turn to cat fighting or bird fighting.....imagine the headlines "Rogue Macaw escapes from house and mauls 4 year old child." "Two crazed tabbies go on rampage in cities downtown district injuring seven people and killing 25 birds." Its a total joke. Like I said BSL is BS.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

working dog- I will NEVER keep my two separated unless I have a damned good reason. I watch my guy, I observe, I LOOK for reasons. But I can't find one, not one reason to be nervous about leaving him alone with my bitch.

I've heard all this crap believe me before. And no one will change my mind. I've spoken in person with reputable people who know both of my dogs, have trained with us etc, and they laughed when they saw how angry these *STUPID* comments made me. Told me to relax.

I'm sorry that you may have had some bad experiences, but that doesn't give anyone the right to label my dog something that he is not. 

My APBT, is not extremely well bred, meaning he's not particularly gamey and to this day, he has not been DA. I know both of his parents, who live in homes with other dogs and get along just fine with no incident whatsoever.

When he gives me a reason to believe that he's going to rip my 83lb dominant bitch apart they'll be separated. But I spend more time with my dogs than the average person does, if he's going to change and become DA, I'll have plenty of warning.

I can't believe that you would call yourself educated, yet make up and pull out breed specific qualities and label them on ANY dog without knowing anything about the dog, the dog's parentage, the dog's training, the dog's environment etc.

It's absurd to me how people can make these assumptions and accusations.

I understand the logic behind it I do. But as I stated before, does every lab retrieve? Heck no.

Does every border have the instinct to herd? Heck no.

Does every GSD protect? Heck no.

Need I go on to prove my point?


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Alpha - I agree not every breed will do what it is bred to do. And all dogs can "snap" and attack another dog or person for what might be no good reason to us. Pit bulls don't fight and kill and tear apart other dogs just because it is a pit bull. ALL DOGS WILL BITE!!!!! All dogs have teeth, all dogs are decended from wolves and therefore have the same basic instincts and social hierarchy. DOgs don't attack other dogs just because "I'm a fighting dog and I want to fight you." 
Biased opinions and discrimination like that will keep this BSL crap going.....which is not fair. Like I said, we can't keep banning breeds because we think they are too aggressive.
We need to promoste spaying and neutering and RESPONSIBLE dog ownership and show people that when you mis-treat an animal it will not be tolerated and you will face the consqeuences. We need to show people training a dog to fight and intimidate people IS A FORM OF ABUSE!!!!!


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

You are misunderstanding what i'm trying to say. I have said that some pits are more dog aggressive than other's. I hope that you will never have any trouble with your's. I'm not saying keep your dogs away from each other when your there but i would never leave home and have my dogs where they could get to each other while i'm gone. I have 2 females and 1 male, they get along fine but with a pit they need no reason to fight. I rather keep them away from each other when i'm not home than to come home to a blood bath, if you have ever seen what a pit can do you might be a little more concerned. My pits are at a dog show at least once a month. They are around a lot of people and other dogs, we spend every day with them in their training, they are good dogs but never the less they are pit bulls. I would never assume that they will not fight and you waiting till you see a sign just might be to late. I'm very educated with the breed since the breed is my life. I have had them for 30 years. I have never been with out one(never) and by the way there is not a sign that they will give you, it will just be a fight bang for no reason that you will see( They need NOOO reason. You do what you want it's your dog .


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I agree wholeheartedly that some pits are more of a risk than others. I trully do. I've seen it with my own two eyes. Not with my dog, but my bitch was recently attacked, not by a pitbull, a staff but seeing as how the law lumps them together.

I think what also needs to be pointed out is you own two bitches and a dog. I have a bitch and a dog. Usually, as in with any breed of dog, the worst fights result from same sex fights. That may have nothing to do with it, but in some cases it does make a large difference. The very fact that you don't trust your dogs together though, says something. That *you* know deep down that if something happened you might not be completely surprised. I trust my dog with my bitch. It's not even trust though. It's just how well I know my dog.

As well, if you own pits, and show your dogs, they're most likely well bred? Being well bred means that by the breed standards your dogs are supposed to be DA. That's the one and only purpose of the breed.

Mine is not neccessarily. He is not papered, doesn't come from any well known APBT lines etc. He, specifically, was not bred for show, or to hold any of the traits that well bred APBT are bred for.

Once again, to assume, and in your post you say: "waiting till you see a sign just might be to late....there is not a sign that they will give you... etc", your assuming that because you know the breed as a whole you know MY dog. I hate to sound so rude, but this topic trully does irk me.

Another point to be made, I only have one pit. I don't have a few that would get in a scuffle together. I have two dogs, a bitch and a dog (pit). My bitch is undoubetly the alpha between the two. There has been disputes every few months while the pit was getting older. More or less the puppy going to far in play, and my bitch has always won hands down. In their few scuffles there has never been blood shed, and I have never seen my pit go for the underside of my bitches throat. EVER.

The signs to watch for are NOT there.

My bitch is a strong, dominant leader.

My pit, is submissive in every way of life. With people and other dogs.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I think you were misunderstanding my point here too, I am not at all saying that pit pulls who are treated well will never attack another dog, I am just saying that I believe ANY breed of dog could do this. Yes pits are bred to be aggressive and yes the bredding of a dog comes into play regardless of their upbringing, but this is also true for many dogs. Before I moved we lived with a heeler mix who was the sweetest, most friendly dog and it was him, not my pit mix that became aggressive towards people and other dogs. My whole point here is that it's really any breed of dog that can suddenly become aggressive. Pits get more of a bad rap becuse they are very strong and do have an immensly strong jaw that was bred for latching onto other dogs during fighting. 

I would definitely be careful leaving a pit alone with another dog, but I would also be just as careful leaving any two dogs together, especially any dog that has a history of being bred for aggressive purposes. I'm sorry if my reaction came off a little harsh and argumentative, but I don't want people to think I am just chatting about pits without knowing about the breed; that's not the case at all. And I very much agree with Alpha in that the signs will usually be there with a dog that can be aggressive, and if you know dog body language and aggression signs then you are well-suited to have a possibly aggressive breed. Even just watching dogs play at the dog park it's often easy to tell which dogs to steer clear of and I do it all the more after my dog was attacked.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Im getting a chuckle out of this and out of all the people who label APBTs as dangerous animals. Its funny how so many people in this country think that this specific dog breed is bad for society because all the "attacks". Just to remind you that in the past Dobermans, Rotts, and GSDs were in the same boat.

I wonder what is the next breed to be labeled as dangerous and I wonder if you will jump on that bandwaggon too...

Stop watching TV, really. You will live longer being less paranoid about the APBTs plot to enslave human kind


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Yeah really, whos next? Before we know it, poodles and shih tzu's will be on the "dangerous dogs" list if we keep up this banning crap.


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## LMIgleheart (Feb 6, 2007)

Like with any dog, as long as you take the time to train them I think they would be fine. they are a little bit more aggresive than other dogs. Do you have small children? I would watch the dog if you do. Make sure your children know the correct way to approach a dog!


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

YES, another smart person..... I couldn't agree with you more LMIgleheart


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> Im getting a chuckle out of this and out of all the people who label APBTs as dangerous animals. Its funny how so many people in this country think that this specific dog breed is bad for society because all the "attacks". Just to remind you that in the past Dobermans, Rotts, and GSDs were in the same boat.
> 
> I wonder what is the next breed to be labeled as dangerous and I wonder if you will jump on that bandwaggon too...
> 
> Stop watching TV, really. You will live longer being less paranoid about the APBTs plot to enslave human kind


You know Doberman_07 I think this is the first time I agree with you 100% especially about the "Stop watching TV, really. You will live longer being less paranoid about the APBTs plot to enslave human kind "


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


> You know Doberman_07 I think this is the first time I agree with you 100% especially about the "Stop watching TV, really. You will live longer being less paranoid about the APBTs plot to enslave human kind "


 

There's a first time for everything


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Down with tv and walk your doggies!!


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

I think that if people raise them right and don't use them for fighting or other illegal uses, then by all means buy one. But I would really look up on how to raise them right and ask other people with experiance. I have met some pit bulls who were so sweet and some who look like they were never properly socialized. But some people think that pits should be banned. Banning a breed won't stop the problem. Teaching people how to properly handle big dogs is the solution.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> You know Doberman_07 I think this is the first time I agree with you 100% especially about the "Stop watching TV, really. You will live longer being less paranoid about the APBTs plot to enslave human kind "


 Took the words right out of my mouth!


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## wimersweiners (Jan 11, 2007)

I keep thinking....There is no akc breed labled..."Pit Bull"
The American Staffordshire Terrier is close...but the "Pit Bull" was generally a mix of the most tenacious breeds to produce a "pit fighting dog" They may have many breeds. As the variety of size indicates. So unless someone produces a Registered Pit Bull then how can a non existent breed be illegal to own?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wimersweiners said:


> So unless someone produces a Registered Pit Bull then how can a non existent breed be illegal to own?


Look at the beginnings of the UKC...the pit bull prompted their formation, and the pit is a registered breed with the UKC. At one time the pit had to prove it's worth to be registered by winning 3 dog fights. Imagine that!


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## horseyplay (Feb 7, 2007)

I'll be real honest, I know nothing about the breed, only what I hear... I do have a friend who breeds and sells pit's but her dogs alway's "appear" to be very friendly. However a neighbor has a pit who charged after me in my yard for no reason a few weekends ago.. He came at me full blast through the woods while I was loading stuff in my shed.. I never made eye contact with the dog but it scared me so bad that I jumped into the shed and closed the door before he had the opportunity to either love me or kill me- I have a feeling it was the later of the two.. the neighbor didn't do anything to the dog but lock him back up in the pen he lives in, I do have horses and this same dog has chased my horses- however My horse kicked the crap out of him and he ran off... but if it were more than one dog, I don't know if we would have been so lucky.. I know nothing about this particular dog as we do not really talk to the neighbors ( very anti-social) but my senses tell me not to trust my neighbor's dog!! I would not own a pit only because I wouldn't trust the breeding it's had and I've heard/read to many stories about pit's gone mad- but I do alway's feel very sad for the dogs when they are destroyed.


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Look at the beginnings of the UKC...the pit bull prompted their formation, and the pit is a registered breed with the UKC. At one time the pit had to prove it's worth to be registered by winning 3 dog fights. Imagine that!


What makes things messy is that any American Staffordshire Terrier registered with the AKC can also be registered as an APBT with the UKC. Some breeders go for the dual registry, but I can imagine that this does not sit well with many AmStaff owners, because the inference is that their peaceable "AmStaffy" is really the same breed as the "dangerous Pit Bull".


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Horseplay,

I hope you are very careful with that PB. Lead poisoning works very well on a viscious dog. I mean the lead that is in a bullet. 

If someone wants a Pittbull bad enough they should be prepared to take complete control of them all of the time. 

I personally think a German Shepherd is an agressive enough dog to contend with because all of them that I have had, will greet any stranger with a very serious warning. You have to be very attentive to aggressive dog types or else someone may be overly aggressive to them if you are not in complete control. 

I suggest you arm yourself with something when you are at the shed. A pitchfork can be a very lethal weapon when needed.


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## akleinsmith (Mar 2, 2007)

I think that Pit Bulls are awesome dogs. I would imagine that it would be easier to get a PBT that is either a puppy or comes from a very good family instead of adopting one with unknown background. It's the same as all dogs, but the Pit Bull is designed for muscle and power and I think that's what makes a huge difference.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

akleinsmith said:


> I think that Pit Bulls are awesome dogs. I would imagine that it would be easier to get a PBT that is either a puppy or comes from a very good family instead of adopting one with unknown background. It's the same as all dogs, but the Pit Bull is designed for muscle and power and I think that's what makes a huge difference.


I agree. I think that adopting any dog without knowing it's background can pose a number of problems. All of the dogs I have owned (and cats) have been rescues so we've never known any of their backgrounds, but we've been really lucky with our current dog. She's (as far as we know) got Pit in her and she was 1 1/2 when we rescued her, but she is FAR from aggressive. I think you have to go on a case by case basis and not single out different breeds, _even though_ some are bred to be more aggressive.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

skunkstripe said:


> What makes things messy is that any American Staffordshire Terrier registered with the AKC can also be registered as an APBT with the UKC. Some breeders go for the dual registry, but I can imagine that this does not sit well with many AmStaff owners, because the inference is that their peaceable "AmStaffy" is really the same breed as the "dangerous Pit Bull".



Actually they are, or were at one time.

The American Pitbull Terrier came first, than the American Staffordshire Terrier. The Amstaff was supposed to be the "show strain" of the APBT.

Hence why APBT aren't as bulky or short. They're leaner, thinner and taller.

I believe the rule is, the dog has to registered with the AKC first too. THAN the UKC as a secondary registry.... AKC and how it's superior to every other registry....

Here in Ontario, Canada, ANY "pitbull" (which is such horsecrap becaue the only *true* pitbull is the APBT) is under the ban. Which means any pit cross, Amstaffs, EST etc.

It is the owner when it comes to this breed. It is unfortuante that this breed seems to attract the wrong kind of owner more than Goldens.


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## Dogsareme (Mar 1, 2007)

Remember the 80's?? (Maybe, Maybe not)
If not look back and see what you can dig up.

The Doberman was the "Pitbull" in the 80's. They had the worst Rep. You constantly heard about them attacking or mulling people. The media would not let it rest. 
Unfortunatly the Doberman was the Fad Dog of the 80's just like the Pitbull is the Fad Dog of today.To many pitbulls with irresponsible owners who don't raise them properly so there for you get alot of problems. That's what happened with the Dobermans. They are what someone else called a "status symbol". People think they make them look tough. But little do they know they are destroying a good breed. 

I've said this a million time to people, ban this breed and those people will just find another 'Tough' image breed and the same thing will happen again. It's the owner who need to be banned not the breed. 

Actually if you look at the media right now they are after the Staffordshire Bull Terriers, they seem to be making headlines fast. I think the biggest reason is they resemble the pitbull and the media is finding that out so they are just labeling any dog attacks and what not now on the Staffordshire.

Some of the attacks that they did put on the news were later found out not even to be done by pitbulls, but the news stations would not retract there statements. Alot of people are even saying other dogs that are mean or growly or attacked were pitbulls, even though they could be labs, or Goldens (these are people that don't know their dogs obviously) because the pitbull is what they heard in the news and it was the only possibility when a mean dog came along. Unfrotunatly alot of people don't even know what a pitbull looks like. I have had people come up and pet my dog and ask me what breed she is as soon as it's mentioned she's part pit, some people have actually stopped petting her or back away. It's really horrible people are so ignorant this way. 

Please don't be scared of pitbulls, their is absolutly nothing wrong with them, don't follow suit with the rest of the world, we need more people to care about there well being. Find fact, don't believe in the fiction. 

Here is a link to a very touching video showing the true pitbull. Please watch and have sound on, and please please please watch the whole thing.

http://gprime.net/flash.php/thepitbullproblem


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I also feel sorry for the dogs that get a bad rap for the few. 

This is my personal opinion and other are, of course, free to disagree....

First, I think that there are NO bad dogs. Just bad owners!!!!!


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## GSDBulldog (Feb 27, 2007)

The American Pit bull Terrier, the breed most often referred to as a "pit bull" is a dog with much stigma surrounding it. 

The American Pit Bull Terrier is an all-purpose breed that can and will excel at anything thrown at it. Hunting, fighting, baiting, weight pull, bite sports, police work, therapy work, agility, dock-diving, herding... You name it, and an APBT has done it. They are still the tenacious, driven dog they were a century ago. 

The proper APBT is a sound, confident dog with a zest for life & love for all people. A true APBT would never lay teeth on a human. However, given their history & current use as a fighting dog, dog-on-dog aggression is a prevelant and *accepted* trait in the breed. Regardless of what was said earlier, good breeding programs are not trying to remove the dog aggression from the APBT. *They are trying to preserve & better the breed, without making them even more appealing to John Q. Public. *

As far as the OP's neighbor's dog, it's both a question of genetics and enviroment. Sometimes it is not always a question of "how you raise them". No, blood runs deeper, and an unsound dog will be unsound from birth. Backyard breeders often peddle puppies to newcomers in the breed, and produce dogs willy-nilly with no regard for health, temperament, or soundness. They are to blame for the uprising of human-aggressive American Pit Bull Terriers. 











One of my own dogs demonstrating the loving nature of the breed.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

horseyplay said:


> I'll be real honest, I know nothing about the breed, only what I hear... I do have a friend who breeds and sells pit's but her dogs alway's "appear" to be very friendly. However a neighbor has a pit who charged after me in my yard for no reason a few weekends ago.. He came at me full blast through the woods while I was loading stuff in my shed.. I never made eye contact with the dog but it scared me so bad that I jumped into the shed and closed the door before he had the opportunity to either love me or kill me- I have a feeling it was the later of the two.. the neighbor didn't do anything to the dog but lock him back up in the pen he lives in, I do have horses and this same dog has chased my horses- however My horse kicked the crap out of him and he ran off... but if it were more than one dog, I don't know if we would have been so lucky.. I know nothing about this particular dog as we do not really talk to the neighbors ( very anti-social) but my senses tell me not to trust my neighbor's dog!! I would not own a pit only because I wouldn't trust the breeding it's had and I've heard/read to many stories about pit's gone mad- but I do alway's feel very sad for the dogs when they are destroyed.


 I'm with GSLover on this one. That dog is most likely dangerous...but then, just look at his owners! Any dog could be off his rocker if he was kept in a pen all day...my neighbor's have a Lab/Coohound mix that is kept in a pen 24/7 and she tried to eat me the first time I met her. After lots of treats and me acting as submissive as possible, she now loves me. But Pretty is an extreamly subbmissive dog...I'd hate to see a dominant dog in her position! That dangerous Pittie is an example of what you SHOULDN'T do with your dog...keep it untrained, unsocialized, and in a pen all of the time. 
If you bought a Pittie from some BYB that bred aggressive dogs, then I would also be shaky about owning a Pittie from that person...but if you find a reputable breeder or adopt from a shelter where they do temperment tests, then I wouldn't worry about it. 


> I personally think a German Shepherd is an agressive enough dog to contend with because all of them that I have had, will greet any stranger with a very serious warning. You have to be very attentive to aggressive dog types or else someone may be overly aggressive to them if you are not in complete control.


 Ya, just think of it in GSD terms. If you had a GSD that you didn't socialize, didn't train, and kept in a pen...it would probably be a mean ol' dog too! Dominant dog breeds like that need an experienced owner or else they can became dangerous.


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## GSDBulldog (Feb 27, 2007)

You cannot compare a GSD to a pit bull, simply because they both have two very different temperaments. A sound APBT will always be sound, regardless of what is done do it. 

For a personal example, I will use Roush, littermate brother to my dog Nos. He was "adopted" by a man who ended up not only both physically & mentally neglecting him (He lived in a 4x6 pen, covered in his own feces, with inadequte food and water), but came back to us scarred and beaten.

He has since made a complete recovery and has a future as a therapy dog. That is the true pit bull temperament. An unjust love & trust for human beings.









Roush at a local ADBA fun show.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I think that people forget that just because the dog is bred for dog fighting, doesn't neccessarily mean first off it will be DA, and secondly that if the dog is DA, a responsible owner knows how to train and manage those behaviours.


My bitch (not a pitbull) is HA. Does that make her a complete menace to society? Nope. Has she bit anyone? Nope. We work hard in OB to control these behaviours and so far we have been more than successful.

Just because a dog is aggressive, doesn't mean that it's a "menace to society". It's the OWNER that makes the difference. If the OWNER is responsible, spends the time and effort to train and is aware and not naive about their dogs behaviours, it's much less likely that an issue would ever arise.

GSD's were not bred for dog fighting. 

Doberman's were bred for human protection. The sole purpose of the breed, hence why they can be outwardly HA/DA, whatever species an intruder is. More or less humans. A lot of the protection breeds have been "dumbed" down during the past few decades, but don't get a Doberman if you don't plan on socializing, training and being honest about your dog's temperment.

If the dog is clearly HA/DA don't lie about it, don't hide, work on it and be cautious.


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## cleo (Feb 25, 2007)

My husband's cousin own's one,she is a female named Mary and she is very sweet.I think it has a lot to do with the owner and how he/she trains the puppy.I don't understand why people feel the need to train them to attack,when it's in them instinctively to begin with.As with any breed be careful and approach the animal carefully,with your hand out,making a fist so it can smell your scent.The reason I say make a fist is so that if it does bite it won't get any of your fingers.This is what I have been told.Also watch how the puppy as it grows into adult acts around people and other animals.Also watch the owners too,in how they are with the dog.Basically it is all about how the puppy is trained.In Cincinnati Ohio I have heard this breed has been banned.All I can say is just be careful,but it isn't only towards this breed it's to all dogs.Just as people you just never know what can turn a dog so quickly on someone.For example my dog Max he is a mix breed not sure what he is,but I think he may be a Golden Retriever and German Shepherd mix.I was trimming his nails,his nails are all black.I have been doing his since he was a puppy.Well I clipped one of them and got the quick.He didn't forget.The next time I clipped them he bit me out of fear.He got me real good too.So now I have them professionally trimmed at the vet.I didn't think he would bite me,but he did out of fear.Some people were telling me I should get rid of him.It isn't his fault it is mine.If I was him I probably would have done the same thing out of fear.I hope it all works out for you and your neighbor.Just take precaution with any dog.This breed does get a bad rap and I feel it is prejudice too.


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## GSDBulldog (Feb 27, 2007)

> people feel the need to train them to attack,when it's in them instinctively to begin with.


It is NOT in their nature to attack a human!



> I think that people forget that just because the dog is bred for dog fighting, doesn't neccessarily mean first off it will be DA, and secondly that if the dog is DA, a responsible owner knows how to train and manage those behaviours.


But in the case of the APBT, of which can "turn on" at any age, it is better to be safe than sorry. It's one thing to realize that your pit bull does not care too much about other dogs. It's another to take one to the dog park.


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## cleo (Feb 25, 2007)

Wimble Woof- I Have A Question Don't Think I Am Attacking You,but Why Wouldn't You Get A Pom Or Shitzu? I Just Recently Rescued A Pom From A Bad Situation Is There Anything I Need To Know About This Breed? Thanks A Bunch In Advance.i Have Never Owned A Small Dog Til Now,i Have A Golden Retriever And German Shepherd Mix And A Louisianna Catahoula Leopard Dogs.


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

I know I''m jumping into this late but I wanted to put in my own 0.02

I personally LOVE pit bulls and would adore to have a well-bred working-line American Pit Bull terrier. I also have my eye on a well-bred working-line Bull Terrier, but thats another topic LOL When people ask me for a good family dog that can keep up on activities with the kids, depending on who they are and where they live I recommend the APBT. IMO it is one of the best family dogs out there! 

APBT are NOT inheritantly (sp?) human agressive. However, there are some people out there who have been breeding the oversized pit bulls by crossing them with Neopolitan Mastiff and/or Dogue de Bordeaux and instead of calling them the Bandogges that they are, they slap on the name APBT or simply call them pit Bulls. Suddenly uneducated people are getting the wrong impression of the APBT. Neos and Dogues are both people-biters (bred to guard) so infuzing their blood into pit bulls will mean a higher chance of human aggression. This is where things get hairy. People call it a ""pit bull"" and suddenly the APBT is also a bad dog  Its like when an Alaskan Malamute attacks someone but everyone calls it a Husky and then suddenly all Siberian Huskies are bad dogs. It makes no sense.

*sigh* But I digress. The dishonest ones are the ones ruining the breed, and the dishonest ones are the ones that would keep breeding regardless of BSL so eventually the proper APBTs die out and all that is left are the over-done Bandogges....being called APBT.


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## mscar22 (Mar 14, 2007)

my mums best friend owns 2 pits. their 2 of the most sweetest most gorgeous dogs i've ever met!

the male is just adorable. he has no teeth and his favourite toy is a barbie ball.

plus, pits may be inclined to be a bit more dog agressive as they were used for fighting. but a good owner can train and socialize a dog out of that. but pits were never bred to attack people. no one wants a dog that would attack their handler. what the point in trainging that trait? it doesnt make sense


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

mscar22 said:


> my mums best friend owns 2 pits. their 2 of the most sweetest most gorgeous dogs i've ever met!
> 
> the male is just adorable. he has no teeth and his favourite toy is a barbie ball.
> 
> plus, pits may be inclined to be a bit more dog agressive as they were used for fighting. but a good owner can train and socialize a dog out of that. but pits were never bred to attack people. no one wants a dog that would attack their handler. what the point in trainging that trait? it doesnt make sense


You're right, dog fighters would breed the most dog-aggressive/people-friendly dogs together so that they didn't have to worry about a dog attacking a person.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> You're right, dog fighters would breed the most dog-aggressive/people-friendly dogs together so that they didn't have to worry about a dog attacking a person.


The way the would do that is, if any time during a dog fight, one of the combatants attacked a handler by mistake it was destroyed or used as a bait dog. That was many, many years ago, and has not been done since as far as I know. Remember that these dogs were originally selected for fighting, because they are probably the best dog you can get for sustained fighting ability and strength . The issue that bothers me the most as I have said quite a few times, is that many of the people that purchase these dogs today are not interested in training, or socializing the dog's behavior. In fact, just the opposite, they are thrilled when the dog has an aggresive edge to it, and almost encourage that behavior. In the two dog parks that I go to on a regular basis, the dogs that frighten people the most are the PB's. What really frightens other dog owners is when there are 2 PB's with the same owner, and it is obvious that they are poorly trained by the way they drag the owner around. The people that are concerned are people that are not uneducated about dog behavior, many of them are professional people, and a few of them are even dog trainers. When I read these threads about what great pets they make, it doesn't seem to correlate to what I am seeing with my own eyes on a regular basis. 

Now I am not saying that there are probably some great PB's out there that make great pets, but the public perception that I see, is that they are to be avoided as much as possible. I have heard this from kennel owners, landlords, vets, cops and insurance agents. If you have an out of control dog that has a bite strength of arouynd* 2500 PSI,* which is enough to* crush a persons skull,* that is a potential danger that should not be ignored. Police have shot these dogs multiple times trying to stop an attack, and the dog kept the attack up until it was finally brought down. 

I think the pro PB people have a gigantic job on their hands, to try and turn this common perception around, and the people that I see buying these dogs are making it worse day by day.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Captbob, I don't disagree with you at all. I do think that the prejudice should not be against the breed itself though. It should be against the irresponsible owners/breeders of theis breed that have ruined it for other people. I am lucky that at our dog park the Pits I have seen there are always the sweetest ones there and they are LUCKY as heck to have owners who have trained and socialized them properly. I actually saw a lady the other day with two 3 month Pit puppies and I have to say they were the most well behaved 3 month olds I have ever met. It was great to see someone taking the responsibility, time and energy to give these dogs a good chance at life. I chatted with her for a while and she said she'd always loved Pits, but waited two years before adopting some as she wanted to do all the research she could. I just wish more people could have that attitude when buying/adopting a Pit (or any breed for that matter, but especially the Pit because of its rep). I will definitely say that I don't think ANYONE should own a Pit unless they have done a LOT of research on the breed and what it takes to own, train, socialize and control the dog.


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## siberian husky lover12 (Nov 17, 2006)

SkiGirl said:


> What's your take on them ? Im just asking because the next door neighbor just got one and i don't know to much about them ? Seem's like a nice puppy just hyper like ours ha


Well, I myself dont care for them that much, but i would get a pup and raise it right, my dog had his heart ripped out by one and i was scared of them from then on. But puppies i do not mind.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Sorry Captbob, I like you  But pitbulls do not have a PSI of 2500 

Rather closer to 300 PSI, like any other dog.

I recently got in arguement with a lawyer fighting a case that involved pitbulls who had also stated the same "fact". He has since regressed, taking that statement off of his website, and replacing it with an apology 

I do agree that a lot of people out there that own APBT's are pretty clueless about the breed in general.

For all of those who are afraid of pitbulls, Hades gives you kisses  And longs to snuggle with you all day on the couch LOL


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Sorry Captbob, I like you  But pitbulls do not have a PSI of 2500
> 
> Rather closer to 300 PSI, like any other dog.
> 
> ...


THE FACTS
# A Pit Bull bite is three times worse than a Rottweilers.
# A Rottweilers has 800psi (Pounds Per Squire Inch Jaw Pressure).
# A Bull Terrier has 1200psi, 
# A pit bull’s bite force is 2000+ psi plus. 
# A Pit Bull does not lock its jaw as do other dogs, but it lower jaw scissors back and forth to rend flesh from the bone. 
# Pit Bulls are bred from Staffordshire Bull Terriers – Gaining their incredible musculature - and Bull Mastiffs Gaining a Cold-Hearted lack of emotion and Phenomenal resistance to pain.


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## siberian husky lover12 (Nov 17, 2006)

I like rotties, but not pitts, i want to throw in onother thing to. It was pretty stupid of me to do so, but i was trying to get my dog out of it's jaws as fast as i could and i got a pretty large and deep cut. Thats why i am scared of them. I like htem when there pups but not grown.


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## beemerchef (Mar 12, 2007)

brokendreams490 said:


> Hmm.. well I guess any dog can be a good dog if trained properly. I would never own one, and honestly seeing one scares me. All the stories I have heard have always been negative about them. I dont know maybe if they a raised right then they may be fine dogs, but i would never own one and I dont really like them.


I can't read the whole thread... and I will be kind with you as... we do have a freedom of speech... here! You have been listnening to the MEDIA or reading!!! How cool is that... SPIRIT and I have been on the road for six months NOW!!! He has had media attention... they all LOVE HIM... he is the coolest dog you will ever meet... and by the way... he WILL know that you really as you said do not like them... but he will not tear off your drumstick!!!
Come on... and I say come on again!!! Could it be because of people like you that the media is feeding yourself to such stupid... news!!! Please... I am even wondering somehow what you are doing here... or if you even own a dog...because you know what??? I LOVE ALL DOGS... and a DOG LOVER loves all dogs... and I think this Forum is for DOG LOVERS... not with people with prejudism... because that is all it is!!! read our story here... please... educate yourself... 
I am not upset with you... I am just irritated at the IGNORANCE that the Media feeds to all...
Be well...










Homeless and happy with my buddy Spirit...

My Blog in colors... www.theoasisofmysoul.com

Ara & Spirit

The Blog... in colors... www.theoasisofmysoul.com


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but please do your research first. I can understand that if you or your dog got attacked by a Pit you might be less likely to like them, but remember that 1) it was ONE dog and thus not every Pit is 'evil' or 'vicious' and 2) it is MORE than likely because of the way the dog was trained, socialized and brought up. YES Pits can be very dangerous and YES their have bee Pit bull attacks, but keep in mind that there are many dog attacks that don't get publicized. The media is making the entire Pit Bull breed look like a bunch of killing machines and that's just not how it is. I mean seriously, if the media started publicizing Chihuahua attacks above all other dog attacks, would everyone start hating Chihuahuas? Granted they are much smaller, but ANY breed can attack a person. I don't disagree that Pits can be very scary dogs, but they can also be sweet, friendly family pets. You do need to know the breed if you own one, and I do think they take a lot of work and training to ensure that they do not become aggressive, but don't punish the breed, punish the deed!


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

beemerchef said:


> I can't read the whole thread... and I will be kind with you as... we do have a freedom of speech... here! You have been listnening to the MEDIA or reading!!! How cool is that... SPIRIT and I have been on the road for six months NOW!!! He has had media attention... they all LOVE HIM... he is the coolest dog you will ever meet... and by the way... he WILL know that you really as you said do not like them... but he will not tear off your drumstick!!!
> Come on... and I say come on again!!! Could it be because of people like you that the media is feeding yourself to such stupid... news!!! Please... I am even wondering somehow what you are doing here... or if you even own a dog...because you know what??? I LOVE ALL DOGS... and a DOG LOVER loves all dogs... and I think this Forum is for DOG LOVERS... not with people with prejudism... because that is all it is!!! read our story here... please... educate yourself...
> I am not upset with you... I am just irritated at the IGNORANCE that the Media feeds to all...
> Be well...
> ...


See, that is the kind of attitude that people resent when they tell you about a Pit Bull attack, and the media mantra pops out. I met a couple las summer at a Vet ER that had their dogs leg severed off by a Pit Bull, while their daughter was walking it down the street *. No media, no mistake, it was a PB.* There have been several other severe attacks in my county in the last 6 months resulting in very bad injuries and one death, and animal control investigated and found that they were indeed Pit Bulls.. So stop with the "blame the media" mantra, please.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Captbob said:


> See, that is the kind of attitude that people resent when they tell you about a Pit Bull attack, and the media mantra pops out. I met a couple las summer at a Vet ER that had their dogs leg severed off by a Pit Bull, while their daughter was walking it down the street *. No media, no mistake, it was a PB.* There have been several other severe attacks in my county in the last 6 months resulting in very bad injuries and one death, and animal control investigated and found that they were indeed Pit Bulls.. So stop with the "blame the media" mantra, please.


I don't think anyone is saying that PBs aren't actually attacking people or dogs or whatever, just that if you look at dog attacks as a whole it is not just PBs that attack people. And even if it is that's no reason to be against PBs as a breed! Yeah maybe there are more PB attacks than any other breed, but why is that? Its because PBs are an attractive breed to the wrong kind of people. If it weren't for the people who use PBs for fighting and other aggressive natured reasons we may not even have the problem at all. It's just sad that this particular breed has fallen into the wrong hands. But it's ridiculous to persecute an entire breed for this problem that is caused by people.


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## ScareCrow (Mar 9, 2007)

I've never been a very big fan of any dog that I didn't know personally. It wasn't that I hated dogs, it was just that I didn't bother them if they didn't bother me and I knew I wouldn't get bit that way. The dog I just recently adopted from the animal shelter is a pit bull and having a family, well lets just say that I don't believe all the garbage the media feeds me on anything and I set out to do some research of my own which calmed me down a lot about this dog. Since I spent so much time looking up stuff for myself I will share some of the more important stuff here because some people have already shown their true ignorance about pit bulls.

There are approximately 4.5 million reported dog bites annually in the United States (nearly 2% of the American population). The majority of dog bites are never reported to local authorities.

According to the American Medical Association, dog bites are the second leading cause of childhood injury, surpassing playground accidents.

Dogs not known to the victim account for approximately 10 - 20% of all reported dog bites. (I would just like to point out here, that means 80-90% of all dog bites are by a dog known to the victim!)


Mixed breeds and not pure bred dogs are the type of dog most often involved in inflicting bites to people. The pure-bred dogs most often involved are German shepherds and Chow chows.

The list of breeds most involved in both bite injuries and fatalities changes from year to year and from one area of the country to another, depending on the popularity of the breed.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention document that a chained dog is 2.8 times more likely to bite than an unchained dog.

Canines not spayed or neutered are three times more likely to bite than sterilized ones. 

Approximately 20 people die every year as a result of a dog attack in the United States. By far, the majority of the victims are children.

The breeds most often involved in fatal attacks are Rottweilers and Pit bulls.

Most of these statistics were gotten here, http://www.fataldogattacks.com/statistics.html

Some things you can learn from these if you just use a little common sense. 

About 20 people die a year from dog bites and yet lighting claims about 83 deaths per year. This means you are 4 times more likely to be killed by a bolt of lightning than by your neighbors pit bull(technically the statistics are higher than 4 times more likely because pit bulls don't account for 100% of deaths but I don't feel like doing the math.) 

Rottweilers and pit bulls account for the majority of deaths caused by dog attacks but they are also two of the strongest breeds most capable of killing. Does this mean that all these dogs are killers, well if 50% of these deaths are from these particular breeds and there are roughly 20 deaths per year that equates to 10 deaths per year from pit bulls and rottweilers combined. You have a better chance of winning your local lottery than you do being killed by a pit bull or rottweiler! I would also like to point out that these two breeds are often kept as guard dogs and it could be very likely that each of these deaths came from a dog that was trained to kill, statistically probable in fact.

Notice that dogs that are not spayed or neutered and also dogs that are chained make up the biggest majority of dog related injuries. This right here proves that the majority of dog related injuries are caused by improper care of the dog. If we wanted to significantly reduce the number of injuries caused by dogs each year we would want to pass legislation that encouraged proper care of animals and punished those who didn't take proper care of their dogs. Laws that prevent dogs from being tied to a chain all the time, laws that prevent people from owning a dog that is not spayed/neutered without a special permit, and laws that prevent people with prior criminal records(serious of course, nothing like seatbelt tickets) from owning a dog would all be laws that would help reduce the number of dog related injuries significantly. 

I also found that pit bulls are one of the most commonly mistaken dogs around, as proof I offer this http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0212/articles/021217a.htm

Last, if you still want to cling to the beliefs that pit bulls are evil or dangerous I want you to click this next link. I want you to see what we put these dogs through, they do it only because they want to please their owners. My experience with pit bulls shows me a breed that does everything it can to please it's master, a dog that almost cries when you get onto it for any reason. These dogs go through so much and still have such a huge affection for humans, it amazes me that people could demonize them. As a warning, there are graphic pictures of pit bulls included on the page I'm linking too. If you still claim pit bulls are evil they shouldn't bother you though, it's just an evil dog right.

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/sadreality.php


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

ScareCrow said:


> I've never been a very big fan of any dog that I didn't know personally. It wasn't that I hated dogs, it was just that I didn't bother them if they didn't bother me and I knew I wouldn't get bit that way. The dog I just recently adopted from the animal shelter is a pit bull and having a family, well lets just say that I don't believe all the garbage the media feeds me on anything and I set out to do some research of my own which calmed me down a lot about this dog. Since I spent so much time looking up stuff for myself I will share some of the more important stuff here because some people have already shown their true ignorance about pit bulls.
> 
> There are approximately 4.5 million reported dog bites annually in the United States (nearly 2% of the American population). The majority of dog bites are never reported to local authorities.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! That was very interesting and insightful, even to a fellow fan of the Pits. I think it's just sad that people assume all PBs are killing machines. No one on here is denying that PBs have injured and killed people or that they can be dangerous, but so have/can other breeds (and mutts) and the facts just go to show that PB attacks are not as prominent as people think they are. I would be vary scared if I ran into a PB loose on the street, but I'd be just as nervous/scared of any dog loose on the street. PBs are strong, but not every single one is a dangerous, vicious dog....and even the ones that are (usually) have humans to thank for that.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Some links regarding the myth of pitbulls having "lock jaw" and an irregular PSI.

http://dogs.about.com/od/dogbreeds/a/pit_bull_faq.htm

http://stason.org/TULARC/recreation/dogs/american-pit-bull-terriers-breed/06-Do-APBT-s-really-have-1600-psi-biting-pressure-and-locki.html

The study I forwarded to the firm is now an unavailable web page, while they did admit that their tests are not 100% conclusive like all other reputable studies show, their tests were composed of a number of SchH trained Rottweilers (So in other words, dogs that are trained in bitesports) and APBTs.

Each were around 300 PSI.

It's myth. As well pitbulls were NOT designed to tear and render flesh, rather grab a hold and don't let go. They shake, not to tear flesh, but to kill.

Two different things. I'll try to get some pictures of my dogs mouths/teeth and it makes a lot more sense.

Roxy's mouth/teeth are typical of a Doberman. Long, sharp, smaller more narrow mouth, designed to take small, but DEEP chunks of flesh.

Hades mouth/teeth, is wider, the teeth would appear thicker. Designed to get a good hold and not to let go.

Hence why you'll often see pictures of APBT's hanging off ropes. Hades does this often. They are NOT designed to tear flesh. Grab a hold of the neck and shake until it dies. Period. Not rip chunks out of the other dog, although I'm sure it happens in dog fights because the other dogs are defending themselves.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

All dogs have the potential to bite just like a dogs, regardless of the breed or mix can be a real goosh. I think it has more to do with the owner and how the dog is trained and raised. Unfortunately there are many people that reproduce (I cannot use the word breed in this instance) pitbulls just to fight, it is sad and it is human error. Last night Cesar Milan, The Dog Whisperer, had a great show on specifically about Pitts and Rotties and how he rescued them from death--One pitbull, Popeye, the biggest (and I mean physically as well as personality) sweetie I have ever seen is used to help people with their fears of big dogs and pit bulls. Cesar Milan's first dog pack was a group of rotties so I have to agree with his theory, there are no bad dogs but there are bad owners. I have seen it time and again at the dog park, someone's dog is having a bad day for whatever reason but instead of leaving, they force their dog to stay a few more minutes for a little more "socialization"--this stresses the other dogs and their owners out. I try in every way I can to be a responsible pet owner with my cats, dog and my bird (who passed away)---if everyone tried to be responsible I think statistics would be different/better. Additionally, Cesar Milan (and me for whatever that is worth) feels it is of utmost important to spay or neuter a dog as that in and of itself can alleviate problems.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

CaptBob I will have to disagree with your "facts." Most dogs have a very high pain tolerance. My dads old dog a catahoula leopard dog fell down a steep embankment with large boulders at the bottom and managed to climb all the way back up (about 25 feet deep at an almost 90 degree drop) and walk all the way back home, she only gave a hint to her pain when she layed down strangely that evening. My dad brought her to the vet and found out she had broken her front leg in two places and in one spot the bones were completely seperated. Yet she walked home, jogged up the stairs and into the living room, jumped up to greet my mom and even layed down on the floor to say hi to me and my brothers and rolled over for a belly rub. And even my dog Chloe, after being attacked and ripped up by another dog, she was on pain meds for four days and even when we phased her of of them you could run your hands over the wounds and wipe them with clothes and she never even flinched. And as for the tremendous bite force you say they have....2000psi? I find that very hard to believe. I would have to see it with my own eyes in order to believe an APBT or related breed has the same bite force of a full grown crocodile. 
I think the reason PB bites are so bad is because they have a very large mouth therefore can take in a large area of skin or body and they tend to hold on and shake when they bite. That is what (IMO) causes the serious damage that pits and rotties and other breeds like them can inflict. 
If I were to be afraid of every breed that has bitten me or shown aggression towards me than I would persecute and fear poodles, schnauzers, labrador retreivers, golden retreivers, chihuahua's, minature pinchers, doberman pinchers, huskies, cocker spaniels, springer spaniels, boxers, belgian shepherds, shih tzus, chow chows, german shepherds, akitas, jack russel terriers and cairn terriers. Those are all the breeds of dogs that I have met that have bitten, chased and acted in any way aggressively towards me and my dogs and that doesn't include the mix breeds.
A story that some people may find upsetting and other may find informative a friend of mine is a vetrinarian in London and she had a client who owned two different dogs that she bred. Both were bitches and both had only one litter before being euthanized. One was a german shepherd and she was euthanized because after she had her litter of ten puppies she attacked and killed two of the puppies and severely injured three others. The owner claimed she had no idea why the dog did this and she was heart broken. She had the bitch euthanized and hand raised the pups and sold them all. Several months later she got a statforshire bull terrier bitch. She bred the bitch and it had a litter of seven pups and it also attacked its own pups. Unfortunately this bitch killed five of the seven pups because the owner was outside and only came inside when she heard one of the pups scream. She immediately had the bitch euthanized and hand raised the other two pups. Owners of one of the staffie pups were suspicious of this lady and called ASPCA who investigated her and found out she had been raising german shepherds and belgian shepherds as fighting dogs. She had gotten the staffie because she had heard they wre superior fighters unfortunately her two bitches killed her cash crops so she got out of the breeding circle luckily.
Just goes to show you how awful some people can be. They train their dogs to be DA so much so that bitches kill their own pups. How awful, people should be ashamed.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

My experience at the dog park today. I was there with my dog and 3 other dogs that I knew and that my dog plays with. A women comes in with about a 9 month old Pit Bull and lets it loose. Immediately it starts running at my dog and one other and starts mounting both of them. My dog threw a fit, which is not her usual behavior, and started really growling at this dog and it sounded to me like stage one of a major dog fight. I yelled at the women and told her to get control of her dog, as I pulled my dog away. Instead of doing that , she starts arguing that her dog isn't fixed yet, and that is the way they act and she made no attempt to control her dog. I let my dog loose again, and her dog went over and did the same thing with the same result. I leashed up my dog and left the dog park.   Maybe I am the unluckiest person in the world when it comes to Pit Bulls, but I am startting to think that they are a major PIA...


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

My son's dog Sooty is 1/4 pit bull. She is the loveliest, funniest, smartest dog I have ever had. When she goes to the park all she wants to do is fetch a ball & ignores other dogs. The only time she gets upset with other dogs is when she's on leash. She has escaped a couple of times & gone down the road to talk to a neighbours min foxie. The neighbour has both times brought her home for us. His wife said she was a bit dubious of Sooty at 1st but now thinks she's only a sook, which she is. She wines to get let in & is terrified of storms & fireworks.
Pit bulls are now banned from being imported into Australia. Whenever there's a dog attack its always reported as being a pit bull, whether its a staffy, shephard or any other dog the reporter can think of.


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## HarleyQuinn (Mar 24, 2007)

Only ever met great Pit Bulls.


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## Whitney (Jul 12, 2006)

I baby sit two pit bulls ever so often... the male is great with people, and is just super hyper. The female (mother) is horrible with other dogs, and she can be a bit shy around people -- mostly males -- sometimes. The sad part is, is that they spend at least 80% of their day in a crate, or without human contact. The mother can not even SEE her son, as they will fight. I only baby sit them because I love dogs, but it's a drag because you can't let them run around the house and stretch their legs, or even in the backyard together. I will let the female out first, and then put her back in, and then the male. The female goes nuts and barks the entire time that the male is out of his crate.

The owner is not the "real" owner. His daughter bought them with her ex-husband, and now she has two twin babies, and no father. So, they stay with that woman's father, and he doesn't have the time or the desire to take care of them. I was going to take the male, but when he was brought over to our house to see how he'd interact with my dogs, he got very aggressive and tried to fight with all three. It makes me sad, because they are both so happy around me, but I can't provide for them. They are both smart too, and I think that it will be awhile before they can be placed in good homes, seeing how they are both going to need a lot of work.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> THE FACTS
> # A Pit Bull bite is three times worse than a Rottweilers.
> # A Rottweilers has 800psi (Pounds Per Squire Inch Jaw Pressure).
> # A Bull Terrier has 1200psi,
> ...


Since when did bullmastiffs ever have a cold-hearted lack of emotion??? Apparently you've never met one. These two would beg to disagree:



















Seriously, bullmastiffs are just big laid back goofballs. 

And have you ever even seen a Staffie? They're not very large dogs at all...

http://www.showdogs.co.za/results/allbreed_open/brvkc2/rbis.jpg


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Laurelin- All of those topics mentioned above are now well known to be myth.

The links in my previous post disprove the idea of pitbulls having an irregular PSI when compared to other dogs.

It's just that, an old wives folks tale.

In some studies APBT's actually had the LEAST PSI after Rottweilers and GSD's.

I could very easily be breedist.

I was out sledding with my dogs the other day and a man walking two Golden's (off leash which is ok if you have your dogs under control).

One of the dogs ran straight up to Hades, whom I ran and PICKED UP. The man didn't say ONE word. He didn't apologize and after he realized I was struggling holding this 60lb dog crying and wimpering in my hands, called his dogs off.

My APBT has NEVER instigated or even acted in any dog fights.

WE have ALWAYS been the victims. 

So does that mean I should write a letter to my town asking for Golden's to be banned?

Pretty ridiculous if you ask me. It was clearly the owner's fault.

Just as the case with most pitbull attacks. 

Sometimes training has no effect on whether a dog is DA or not, but there are a tonne of DA pitbulls out there and no one, including myself would be able to tell because the OWNERS are so responible.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

The few times I had problems with Bess it wasn't our fault. One incident I remember well was when my family was having our annual reunion and Bess was laying under the picnic table at the big pavillion we rent out. She was on a leash but no one was holding it and it wasn't tied to anything. Some guy and his chow chow were walking (dog not leashed) when the dog suddenly charged some of my little cousins who were playing soccer. My aunts started yelling at the guy to leash his dog because it was trying to attack the little kids but he just yelled back and said it was the kids fault and them running with a ball made his dog want to play. All the while he is yelling the dog is running through the few hundred people at my reunion charging, barking, growling and snapping at people. Bess stood up and barked and it ran over and started attacking her. My dad grabbed the dog by the collar and walked it back towards the guy with his hand around its muzzle holding it by the collar and they guy stared freaking on my dad saying he was abusing his dog and Bess instigated the fight, she was a pit bull and pit bulls alwasy instigate and his dog wanted to get the ball and play with it and he snapped at people because we have food. Well needless to say when all eight of my uncles stood with my dad who was still holding the guys dog he shut up and ran away tail between his legs. Bess had scratches on her neck and legs but she was ok.
IMO I am more nervous of the akitas, chow chows and golden retreivers around here than the pit bulls and rottweillers.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Captbob said:


> My experience at the dog park today. I was there with my dog and 3 other dogs that I knew and that my dog plays with. A women comes in with about a 9 month old Pit Bull and lets it loose. Immediately it starts running at my dog and one other and starts mounting both of them. My dog threw a fit, which is not her usual behavior, and started really growling at this dog and it sounded to me like stage one of a major dog fight. I yelled at the women and told her to get control of her dog, as I pulled my dog away. Instead of doing that , she starts arguing that her dog isn't fixed yet, and that is the way they act and she made no attempt to control her dog. I let my dog loose again, and her dog went over and did the same thing with the same result. I leashed up my dog and left the dog park.   Maybe I am the unluckiest person in the world when it comes to Pit Bulls, but I am startting to think that they are a major PIA...


You were right, that lady (?) should have left and I hope to goodness she has that dog spayed or neutered. In the dog park the other day there was the sweetest nine month old English Bulldog named Hank problem was he was not spayed, he was not going to be spayed and that got other dogs in a tizzie. It all worked out but it was a potential problem that might have turned ugly. I am starting major obediance training with my dog and was told by several trainers that he should not visit the dog park too often as that can contradict his our training efforts......


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Chloef_2799 said:


> The few times I had problems with Bess it wasn't our fault. One incident I remember well was when my family was having our annual reunion and Bess was laying under the picnic table at the big pavillion we rent out. She was on a leash but no one was holding it and it wasn't tied to anything. Some guy and his chow chow were walking (dog not leashed) when the dog suddenly charged some of my little cousins who were playing soccer. My aunts started yelling at the guy to leash his dog because it was trying to attack the little kids but he just yelled back and said it was the kids fault and them running with a ball made his dog want to play. All the while he is yelling the dog is running through the few hundred people at my reunion charging, barking, growling and snapping at people. Bess stood up and barked and it ran over and started attacking her. My dad grabbed the dog by the collar and walked it back towards the guy with his hand around its muzzle holding it by the collar and they guy stared freaking on my dad saying he was abusing his dog and Bess instigated the fight, she was a pit bull and pit bulls alwasy instigate and his dog wanted to get the ball and play with it and he snapped at people because we have food. Well needless to say when all eight of my uncles stood with my dad who was still holding the guys dog he shut up and ran away tail between his legs. Bess had scratches on her neck and legs but she was ok.
> IMO I am more nervous of the akitas, chow chows and golden retreivers around here than the pit bulls and rottweillers.



I really love my animals and I do my best to keep my animals from causing anyone any stress or annoyance, much less endanger them or their animals.
If I were you, I would carry something lethal and give the dog a wack and get on with life. You shouldn't have to be so afraid to take your dog for a walk. I personally have no problem deep sixing another persons animal if it endangers me or anyone else I feel the need to defend. 

Go to a farm supply store and purchase a cattle prod and take it with you on your walk. It will make your pesty dogs go away in a hurry. If you live in a Concealed carry friendly state you may want to arm yourself with a more lethal weapon.


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

Im not a big fan of using a gun on a dog unless the dog is just going nuts tearing someone apart or really attacking someone. Ive heard too many stories of police officers shooting harmless dogs because the dog barked at the officer or walked over to sniff the officer and stuff like that. 

And I think citizens can make that same mistake if confronted by a barking dog and they feel threatened. I would suggust a "non leathal" weapon for use against dogs such as bear mace, which has a range of 20 feet ($40 price tag- ouch!) Or a tazer. 

Even the best pet owner can make a mistake, a window accidently left open, a gate latch opened by a kid etc.... and I would certianly be upset if one of my dogs was shot and killed because he got out accidently and barked at someone walking past. 

I knew a homeless man who rode a bicycle around town and he always had a little chow dog in one of those kid carriers people attach to their bikes so they can haul kids around as they cycle. One day he went to the park and a couple 10 year old kids had their pit bull in the park running loose, the pit bull ran over and killed the chow dog and those kids were happy and smiling that their pit had killed another dog. If I had been there that day, I might have beaten those kids half to death, I would temperary insanity but probably go to jail anyhow. That homeless guy loved his dogs, he was crying for 3 days. 

There will always be people in our world who have no compassion for animals, all they care about is that their pit bull is "cool" and "tough"


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I've got some dog and bear mace 

I've used most of my dog mace up though on wandering neighborhood dogs in our yard


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I've got some dog and bear mace
> 
> I've used most of my dog mace up though on wandering neighborhood dogs in our yard


Yeah I'd be the same way if I had mace. Bridgette is a pit mix and people give me strange looks when I ask them if their dog is friendly. Despite whatever breed Bridgette is I can trust her, but I sure as heck won't trust other dogs...especially unleashed ones. She was attacked about 3 months ago by a husky mix off leash and she just lay there on her back and almost got her freaking leg ripped off. She peed everwhere, but never took a growl, snarl or anything towards the other dog. Heck, she's scared of our 5 month old cat!! I think any dog has the potential to be aggressive (whether to other animals or humans) and it is always down to their upbringing and owners.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

vanbum said:


> Im not a big fan of using a gun on a dog unless the dog is just going nuts tearing someone apart or really attacking someone. Ive heard too many stories of police officers shooting harmless dogs because the dog barked at the officer or walked over to sniff the officer and stuff like that.
> 
> And I think citizens can make that same mistake if confronted by a barking dog and they feel threatened. I would suggust a "non leathal" weapon for use against dogs such as bear mace, which has a range of 20 feet ($40 price tag- ouch!) Or a tazer.
> 
> ...


I got one of these Pepper sprays a couople of weeks ago. I use to use Halt but decided that it probably wouldn't work very well with a really angry dog. This is about 50 times stronger than Halt and made by a company that makes Bear Spray. It is for Joggers, comes with a Holster and costs about $20...

https://store.udap.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=P&Product_Code=3P&Category_Code=PS


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

I suppose if you are gonna get pepper spray, might as well get one that works on people too. I thing the odds of getting attacked by a person is greater then being attacked by a dog.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

GermanShepherdLover - I have a small can of dog mace now. After the incident with Chloe and Sadie it will be in my pocket always along with my cell phone. 
The reason we never carried any protection devices around when we had Bess was because 1 - she was very large for a female boxer. 24 inches at the shoulder and she probably weighed about 60 or 70 pounds (which is a guess so don't quote me on that). 2 - Most people in my area didn't have dogs who were willing to attack her. She was never a dominant or aggressive dog but when other dogs got close to her and were being aggressive or dominant she would puff herself up and growl softly. She never fought or attacked other dogs I think she growled just to let the other dog know "hey bud...I am not going to fight you so bug off." And 3 - at my family reunions for some reason the guys in my family are very big (my dad is the shortest at 6'3" and the tallest uncle is 6'6") so most people tend to leash their dogs as soon as my family asks them to. We are not a bunch of mean people though we are always polite and treat people like we want to be treated so often when we have our reunions we have dogs running around with us and some people will ask us to leash them up and we do and we appologize. it was just that this guy was an idiot. He even yelled to another person waling by that we had a pit bull and it attacked his dog. The lady ended up runing away with her little dog instead of calling for help like he asked her but yeah.....what a jerk.


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## Marley (Mar 26, 2007)

I think that Pitt Bulls really do get a bad rep. There are lots of "bully breeds" who get mistaken for pitts that have similar heritage and the aggressive traits bred into them. 

I personally will NEVER trust one. I don't understand why anyone would take the chance. I'm not a dog behavioralist, and am not always around to watch my dog in the back yard (fenced) so I'd never trust a pitt around other dogs when I am not prepared to see the subtle cues he might give off before visciously attacking another dog or human. 

My roommate has a pitt mix. I don't trust her. She's mostly playful, but even my roommate and her bf (the owners) don't fully trust that one day she won't "turn". They decided then to adopt the bf's brother's full pitt who is 8 months old. They brought just her home without the part pitt around, and it only took her 30 minutes to decide to attack my shepherd/lab/husky mix who is so gentle and mellow and reserved with other dogs. There probably were some "signs" that she was going to, but she'd never been aggressive before! Of course not, no dog that one day attacks has EVER been agressive before! (Note sarcasm!) So now my dog is locked in a crate even more during the day because he can't be out with her, because the roommate can't get her out of the house until the weekend! 

I will never trust a pitt, or any of the other "bully" breeds. I don't see the point of even bothering. I want to have kids one day (i'm 23 now) and I make a lifetime committment to my animals. Who would ever have a pitt or any other typically aggressive breed around kids is just being neglectful. But what do you do when you have kids and the kids irritate the dog and the dog snaps and attacks the kid? You take him to the pound. And add to the overpopulation and lack of responsibility that already exists. 

I know a lot of their behaviors has to do with their environment and training, but you don't always know what has been bred into a particular dog, and as someone else commented earlier, I am not about to go up against an extremely strong dogs genetics!


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Marley the fact that you mispell "pit" already tells me that you are uneducated and unwilling to listen to any facts or stories from any of the responsible pit owners here on DF like myself.

I'm especially a bit perturbed that you imply I'm irresponsible for having a pitbull around children.

Your post makes it quite clear to me that your just plain ignorant.

ANYONE that's done ANY research about APBT's would know that they were WELL KNOWN to be GREAT family members, ESPECIALLY with children because of their high pain tolerance and general, limitless love of humans.

The fact that imply that it's in APBT"s GENETICS to be human agressive once again proves how IGNORANT you trully are.

I'm not telling everyone to go out and buy a pitbull and guarenteeing that it's not going to be DA or even possibly HA.

The FACTS about the breed are they are NOT bred to be human agressive.

What do you think of GSD's? Rottweilers? Dobermans? None are bully breeds but are bred FOR human protection, meaning they have more of a possibility for being human agressive than a pitbull.

Please, if your just going to post your opinion, dandy.

But don't make it sound like your knowledgeable about the breed than make clearly ignorant comments that are based on no fact, rather myth. 

I could post a dozen pictures of Hades with my niece and nephew. 

I could tell a dozen stories about some of the abuse Hades has put up with, and his reaction. Although it's clear your one of the so-called "dog people" that have made a decision about a breed without first off, knowing anything about it, or secondly trying to understand WHY the breed has such a bad reputation. (I'll give you a hint, it's mostly from the owner)

I KNOW MY DOG. I've researched the breed, it's pretty darn clear you have not.

ETA- Holy crap I just re-read your post and see that already OWN a lab/GSD! And you plan on having children!??!

Did you know that labs were #1 in my town for biting small children in the family last year?

Or that GSD are BRED for human protection, therefore they're more likely to bite a human than a pitbull?!?!

OMG!! How irresponsible of you to plan on having children around that dog!


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Marley the fact that you mispell "pit" already tells me that you are uneducated and unwilling to listen to any facts or stories from any of the responsible pit owners here on DF like myself.
> 
> I'm especially a bit perturbed that you imply I'm irresponsible for having a pitbull around children.
> 
> ...


I was going to post a reply to Marley's post, but you said it all Alpha! Nice post and I agree with every word.

Also want to add that my pit mix has been very loving and loyal to us and to my (now 6 month old) baby nephew! She's SCARED of our 5 month old cat, and is the biggest baby when it comes to actual aggressive dogs. She got attacked by a husky/gsd mix and just lay there and yelped/peed. So please don't tell me that all pits and pit mixes are untrustworthy. As Alpha said, you clearly know nothing about the breed.


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

I agree with CrzyBritNAmerica and Alpha's replys - But I can understand why some people feel the way Marley does. 

We all know that the media tends to jump on any story in which anyone gets attacked by a Pit while they might ignore the same stories if the dog was a lab or a golden or something, but it sure seems like sometimes when A pit is involved the damage can be very bad. Kids face gets torn off, someones leg needs amputating, a 2 year old is killed etc.... 

So I think when people see those stories, they think that any pit might "snap" one day and go nuts and cause that kind of damage and it scares them. 

If someone says they will never trust a pit, then maybe they shouldnt own one. Maybe their lives are too busy to learn the facts and put forth the effort to be a responsible pit owner. 

Perhaps a poodle would be a better choice.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

vanbum said:


> Perhaps a poodle would be a better choice.


Poodles imo, especially standards, are another one of the most judged breeds of dogs. Standard poodles are gorgeous athletes and never seem to get the kind of respect they deserve. Poor things.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Growing up I was terrified of poodles (mini and standard) and keeshonds because some neighbours around my area had these kind of dogs and they were quite aggressive and un-p[redictabel. The lady who had two keeshonds had to muzzle the one because it had bitten other people and the un-muzzled attacked a few people as well but not as badly as the male. As I got older however and learned more about dogs I realized these dogs were unfrotunately not trained, socialized and I am quite certain the standard poodle was badly abused (he attacked my dad when he was walking Leslie and both dogs had to see a vet because the tore each other up pretty badly). I am no longer terified of keesies or poodles. As a matter of fact I think keshonds are great dogs and would love to have one but I am not prepared to take on a third dog nor one who would require the grooming a keeshond would need. But maybe one day I will. 
I have said it many times and will say it again people need to research and educate themselves before saying one breed or species is bad. With bad education thats how people make bad decisions.....just look at certain endangered species and (perfect example) pit bulls. People used to think wolves and bears were blood thirsty live stock murderers and baby killers so they hunted them almost to extinction. Bears hardly eat meat (90% vegetation and 10% meat) and wolves are hardly vicious man killer. As a matter of fact they are afraid of people and would sooner head for the hills than attack a human. Its all about education and research. Need I say more?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Vanbum- You're so right. And while it's not the general publics fault that the media misleads them, if they are trully dog lovers before they start making general negative comments about a breed, perhaps they should educate themselves first.

I've met a few people in my small town that were right up there jeering for the pitbull ban here in Ontario. But after they met my Hades, and saw my 5 year old nephew walking him ALL BY HIMSELF downtown in our city doing a fine job I must add, a lot of them have changed their minds, about pitbulls and just in general dog training.

After reading my post again it's kind of harsh, I'll admit the topic angers me sometimes.

It's a little different on the internet, if I were to meet some of the people who post negative opinions about people in PERSON, I would respond much differently...

So in other words, in person, about this specific topc, I'm nicer  LOL

It's just soo much easier when people can hear me talk and you can SEE and PAT and LOVE ON my dog. You can see him with my other dog Roxy, who picks on him relentlesly, poor little guy. LOL And yet he does nothing to defend himself other than look up at me with sad, caring eyes.... (actually much like in my signature, the pic on the right  )

*sigh*

Or see him with my niece and nephew walking politely down a busy crowded road with dogs and people and cars....

Chloef- All great points in your posts


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Vanbum- You're so right. And while it's not the general publics fault that the media misleads them, if they are trully dog lovers before they start making general negative comments about a breed, perhaps they should educate themselves first.
> 
> I've met a few people in my small town that were right up there jeering for the pitbull ban here in Ontario. But after they met my Hades, and saw my 5 year old nephew walking him ALL BY HIMSELF downtown in our city doing a fine job I must add, a lot of them have changed their minds, about pitbulls and just in general dog training.
> 
> ...


You are saying that the people that see your particular Pit Bull, think it is friendly so therefore, everyone should feel that way about all PB's. At two dog parks that I attend on a regular basis, that is not the perception that the *vast majority of people* who also happen to be dog owners, have of the breed. This is after they see examples of D/A in the PB's that attend the park. This has nothing at all to do with any media, this is something you are seeing with your own eyes. They have regulations about prong collars and studded collars not being allowed in the dog park, and every day, there are PB's that are brought into the park wearing them. Many of the PB owners have crappy attitudes, and it doesn't take them very long to make quite a few enemies among the regulars in the park. One of these parks is quite large, and one or two of these dogs can force all the other owners to leave to avoid a hassle. 

Now if this is the impression that dog owners are getting, you can probably see how that would affect to the general public's perception of the breed.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Captbob said:


> You are saying that the people that see your particular Pit Bull, think it is friendly so therefore, everyone should feel that way about all PB's. At two dog parks that I attend on a regular basis, that is not the perception that the *vast majority of people* who also happen to be dog owners, have of the breed. This is after they see examples of D/A in the PB's that attend the park. This has nothing at all to do with any media, this is something you are seeing with your own eyes. They have regulations about prong collars and studded collars not being allowed in the dog park, and every day, there are PB's that are brought into the park wearing them. Many of the PB owners have crappy attitudes, and it doesn't take them very long to make quite a few enemies among the regulars in the park. One of these parks is quite large, and one or two of these dogs can force all the other owners to leave to avoid a hassle.
> 
> Now if this is the impression that dog owners are getting, you can probably see how that would affect to the general public's perception of the breed.


Well if you are all dog owners and dog lovers then you should see that its nothing at all to do with the breed. It's the owners. I mean, come on, the dogs didn't put the spike/prong collars on themselves....the PB puppies weren't born thinking "oh yeah I am going to kill all kinds of dogs when I grow up." 

If it wasn't for the media then you guys at your dog parks would simply think "This _dog_ (refferring to the aggressive dog at the park) is a problem...and not "oh it's a Pitbull, it's a problem." Does that make sense? My point is, if it wasn't for the way the media played on the entirety of the breed then people would see the problems on a dog to dog basis and not by seeing the breed as a whole. 

*It's the owner's fault!* Alpha is trying to make the point that not just his PB is friendly and well adjusted, but that anyone who takes the time to train and socialize their PB will have a friendly and well socialized PB too. People assume that EVERY PB will 'turn' and attack it's owner someday....maybe a few will, but it has nothing to do with the breed. I've seen plenty of passive dogs become suddenly aggressive, and of the ones I have seen not one has even been a PB. Any dog can be aggressive and it's not strictly PBs that are the problem. If ANY BREED (or mixed breed) dog falls into the hands of a careless/abusove person it has the potentiality of becoming an aggressive (whether DA or HA) dog.

It's sad that you live in an area where people don't bother to socialize and train their PBs...but you are only talking about 2 dogs parks, in YOUR area. We have a majority of PBs that come to our 2 dog parks and I've seen plenty of aggressive dogs...not one of those was a PB. We are lucky here that the PB owners are taking the time to create friendly dogs.

So *no*, it's not the entire breed that causes the problem...it's the people who don't care that this dog is probably going to be PTS because of their freaking carelessness to train them. It's just sad that everyone can't think tis way. If everyone thought of it as a problem based on a dog to dog basis then they could tell others and maybe people would take the hint and stop training their PBs to become aggressive, angry "killers". I mean seriously, look at the people who own these PBs that are aggressive...with most people you can tell that the dog is not in good hands. They are just a popular breed for the wrong people and that is why they are getting this sad reputation. If every PB was owned by some like Alpha or other PB owners on this forum, then I think we'd have NO problem with PBs at all!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I agree with you CrzyBritNAmerica. (I need a shorter name to call you though  )

Anyways, I don't see how any of the things you are seeing reflects on the breed, it just reaffirms the fact that we are all aware of here that many people attracted to pits are attracted to them for all the wrong reasons. obviously these people are not responsible, they put little to no time into their dogs, they possibly have trained them to react this way, they most likely haven't socialized their dogs, yet you blame the breed? Any dog would turn out badly under those circumstances. 

Obviously pit bulls have attacked people before. No one says they haven't. All they are saying is that it is blown out of proportion and often times mis-identified. 

The problem with the breed is that unfortunately it is popular. All breeds suffer because of this. It is attracting many horrible horrible owners and breeders who don't give a care about their dogs' temperaments. It's not in the breed, it's just due to irresponsibilty. All breeds that are overbred and bred without care by BYB produce dogs with temperament issues. It does not mean that is how the breed is *supposed* to be.

It's like saying that all little dogs are ankle biters that are treated like accesories and never trained. Obviously some dogs are treated like this- and people notice them. That doesn't mean all little dogs are. I sure as hell don't treat my toy dogs that way. It shouldn't be that since a portion of badly bred, badly kept small dogs are vicious or badly socialized that no one should be able to keep them. I love them. Mine are well behaved and I have every right to keep them whether people like them or not.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> It's like saying that all little dogs are ankle biters that are treated like accesories and never trained. Obviously some dogs are treated like this- and people notice them. That doesn't mean all little dogs are. I sure as hell don't treat my toy dogs that way. It shouldn't be that since a portion of badly bred, badly kept small dogs are vicious or badly socialized that no one should be able to keep them. I love them. Mine are well behaved and I have every right to keep them whether people like them or not.



Nice reply! I think you probably said it better than me.  But to add on to this statement I think it goes for ALL dog "stereotypes"

Chihuahuas and other small breeds: They are (like Laurelin said) seen as people's 'accessories' but not everyone who has a small breed treats them like that. They are known to be yappy...but I have met plenty who have been trained not be yappy. Again here it comes down to the OWNER and the training.

Dalmations and Chows: People see these dogs as HA and say they aren't good with kids. Well I have seen plenty of Dalmations and Chows around kids. Again, down to the owner and the training.

Anyone could do this with every breed specific stereotype and see that it comes down to the owner and the type of people these dogs appeal to. Chihuahua's appeal (at the moment anyway) to people like Paris Hilton (not that I have a problem with Chihuahua's or Paris Hilton...don't want to offend anyone) but it is a FAD at the moment to see people with these little dogs in their purses and treated like more of an accessorie and not a dog. 

PBs appeal to a different kind of person, but it's the same situation. It's the owners irresponsibility.


Oh and PS. Laurelin everyone usually just types CrzyBrit... lol


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

Owning a "bull breed" or two, I feel I should make a comment.

I have owned an english Bulldog who has past in Feb. He was the BEST family dog I have ever owned. When I was younger, I owned a Black Lab and she was more "viscious" than my bulldog. My EB was very protective over my kids and that was it. if you tried to hurt my kids, he'd try and hurt you. Other than that, if you didn't hurt my kids, he was your best friend- with treats or without.

I own an American Bulldog now. He's a puppy, so he still does the puppy nipping. I have a 2 year old and a 5 year old, and I would trust this dog around my kids even if I wasn't around. (But, of course, I'm always with them when the puppy is around them- only because he's a puppy. I'm the same with my mom's chihuahua puppy).

If you were to say you hate pits because they hurt or sometimes kill people, then it would be like saying I hate men and women because they are known to kill people also. If that's the case, people who feel this way about the different breeds, should not reproduce and have children, because their children might hurt or kill someone else.

Just my 2 cents...


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

One of you mentioned a city that was going to ban Pit Bulls as many cities are considering doing. 

Perhaps a better idea is to ban breeding of Pit Bulls, make it an automatic one year in jail if you are caught breeding a Pit Bull. 

Or maybe every pit owner would need a special licence which requires a 4 hour manditory training course from a pit bull behaviour expert. This would help weed out people who want a pit for the wrong reasons. I personaly wouldnt mind going through that, I might learn something I didnt know and would be happy to do it knowing it might make gangbangers and other idiot people think twice about getting a pit because they are tough and its cool to have one.

Ive met people who purposly treat their pit badly to make the dog meaner. I even met one clown who wouldnt let his pit puppy be touched or petted by anyone, because he said he wanted the dog for protection and didnt want the dog to be a wuss (sigh)


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

vanbum- I live in Ontario, Canada, and we HAVE the pitbull ban.

This means all Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Staffordshire Terriers and American Pitbull Terriers MUST be muzzled and on leash in public areas and MUST be spayed and neutered.

In May of last year they took it to court and recently it was upheld in the Supreme Court. They did appeal it though. Hundreds of thousands of dollars were raised to hire the BEST lawyer in Canada, Clayton Ruby.

I agree with Laurelin and CrazyBrit.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. It's not just MY dog.

There are plenty of "pitbulls" (meaning staffs as well) that are just like my little guy.

I hate to bring up the topic of race, but according to your post than, if in a small town a middle eastern man would be ostracized than for robbing a bank, or let's say two middle eastern men.

That would be thier own "personal experience" with that race right?

Of course NORMAL people don't think that way. They know that not ALL people of X race are like that, but it's just unfortunate that it was their only meeting with them.

It's the same with ANY breed of dog especially pitbulls.

Just because you've met a few that aren't in the most responsible household doesn't mean that ALL pitbulls are like that.

I've met a TONNE of annoying, ill mannered Golden Retrievers believe it or not at our training school. Do I hate Golden's because of it?

No.

It just bothers me when people post their opinion, after meeting a few ill mannered pitbulls as if it were FACT about the breed in general. There's no other word for it than plain ignorance IMO.


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

Im confused Alpha - your post seems to disagree with my post, but I agree with what you say 100% , Maybe I didnt type what I meant correctly or maybe there was a simple misunderstanding. 

Let me put it this way:

There are 2 types of people who own pit bulls. I dont need to explain the difference between the 2, im sure you already know.

The problem is, they outnumber us, probably by 20 to 1. So when they pass laws to try and stop problems caused by those 20 idiots, the one responsible owner has to suffer too, and that sucks.

Im not sure what I posted that rubbed you the wrong way, but I agree with you totally. 

I have a pic on my PC, im not gonna post it here cause its too depressing, its a pic of 5 or 6 barrels at the dog pound full of the dogs they had to euth that day. Cats and dogs just piled in barrels, and you can clearly see a pit mix sticking out of one of them. I cried the first time I saw that pic. I cant even go to the dog pound because its like walking past cages of dogs that are on death row, but they didnt commit any crime, their owners did and they will die for their owner's sins. Its just too depressing.

I gave up on watching shows like "animal cops" on the Animal Planet channel. They respond to a call of some idiots involved in a fighting pit bulls and theres a pit covered in blood and the owner could care less. 

As his pit is taken away, the owner has a look on his face like "I dont get it, the dog is my property, I can do what I want with it" aagghhhh - it drives me mad. so I cant watch those shows anymore. 

They outnumber us. 

Those of us who love our dogs, we want to provide them with a good life because thats what they deserve. But to so many, a dog is just something that exists for their entertainment, and they have no compassion for the animal at all. 

And they outnumber us greatly.


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## yellerlab (Mar 28, 2007)

I think that if they are raised right, then they are less likely to be aggressive dogs, but they are bred to mean and fight. It is like trying to get a labrador retriever to stop retrieving. They can't something just tells them that they have to go and get that stick for you and bring it back.


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

I dont agree. 

I see news reports all the time about a pit killing some baby or chewing up someone's leg or something like that. 

lets go back in time, and give me that same pit as a puppy, and no way would he grow up and have the same future.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

yellerlab said:


> I think that if they are raised right, then they are less likely to be aggressive dogs, but they are bred to mean and fight. It is like trying to get a labrador retriever to stop retrieving. They can't something just tells them that they have to go and get that stick for you and bring it back.



I agree with you. It is like trying to get my dog to stop chasing squirrells.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I agree with you. It is like trying to get my dog to stop chasing squirrells.


I think that's a very biased and untrue statement. It's a huge generalization. Obviously some people are breeding pits with crappy temperaments that are human aggressive then training them to attack or not socializing them. Those particular dogs and owners and breeders are a problem- and a big problem at that. It does NOT mean however that ALL pit bulls are like that or that ALL pit bull owners treat their dogs this way. 

In my opinion punish the ones who are doing things wrong and support the ones who are doing things right and trying to turn things around for the breed.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

OMG! *dies*

Every lab retrieves?!??! Seriously!?!?

Well, you'll have to tell that to one of the field triallers I go to school with, because she's having a heck of a time with her dogs!

Same with a lady at our school who breeds NSDTR.

Once again, TOTAL and complete utter ignorance.

NOT EVERY dog bred to do a specific job does that job.

It's the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard!

While I agree, when purchasing a breed, you should research them fully because they most likely will have many of the breed specific qualities, it BY NO MEANS guarentees the dog to have those qualities.

I must inform those two breeders that they're wrong, and that ALL of their dogs (labs and NSDTR) retreieve. Period, because that is what they were bred to do.

The lady who breeds the NSDTR also does some e-collar training, and was telling us a few months ago about a woman who came with her lab. She was pretty inexperienced but was ambitious, and wanted to do hunt tests with her lab. The big problem was her lab didn't retrieve! She didnt' understand it, isn't he a Labrador RETRIEVER?!?!? ROFL. After some education she sucombed to the fact that it didn't mean her dog was a programmed robot that would do whatever it was hopefully programmed to do! LOL

End of story is with some positive training methods the dog retreives, but it was only by the skin of his teeth and it took a lot of work.

I guess it could be comparable to beating a pitbull to make him dog aggressive.

vanbum- I wasn't disagreeing with you, just saying that where I live we have the ban is on  It was a recent discussion at class on Tuesday, so perhaps I gave TMI! ROFL

ETA- It was brought up something about "trying to stop dogs from chasing squirrels".

I have you know that Hades, being a Terrier, LOVES to chase squirrels. Well, it would appear he loves to, but all the work we do in OB is engrained in him MUCH to strongly for him to risk breaking that "here" command, which means he has to stay within approx. 5 feet away from me.

All it takes is A LOT of time and the right methods for your dogs and you can train them to do anything  Whether they like it or not, that's another story LOL


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I agree with Alpha and vanbum 100%. Just because a dog is bred to do something does in no way mean they will do that without training. For instance, if you go out and buy a herding breed you cannot just let it in with sheep and expect the dog to start herding perfectly. 

These breeds are bred with the best characteristics for the job that we have intended them to do...but that does not mean they will automatically do this without training first. How can anyone even say that? PBs are strong dogs...like many others...they are ideal for the sick people who feel the need to sport in dog fighting. They could just as easily be using Rotties, Doberman's or any strong breed to fight with. 

And as said before Pitbulls were NOT originally bred as fighting dogs. AND they STILL are not bred as human aggressive dogs! Even the people who breed PBs as dog fighters breed the most DA/human friendly dogs...they don't want the dogs attacking people...although it happens because of the abuse the poor dogs have to suffer. If you have seen the way these poor dogs are abused then you'd want to attack people too. It's disgusting.

There's a lot of people who have retrievers who don't retrieve and herding dogs who couldn't herd if they wanted to. That is utter ignorance IMO.


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## Beckie (Mar 28, 2007)

I can only say : a Apbt are a very good dog breed. and I own a purebred Apbt boy inself and they are a very friendly,nice,funny and very funny dogs.
my own are a very funny and nice dog and I love him so much  
I live in a country there this dogbreeds not are banned.and that are very lucky for all us with apbts,amstaffsand staffs and other bulldogs breeds. 
this dogs been 
a dog been what we learn them to. if a dog been aggressive so are that not a dogs wrong. thats are a owners wrong.


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

Hearding breeds? ack. ya know what, I hate people who get a dog for a needy purpose to serve themselves, like for protection or to heard something or whatever. Were dogs put on this planet to serve us? 

I even hate Agility and Dog shows - they only exist to please humans, a dog who wins Agility or a Dog Show has no idea whats going on, its just the stupid owner who enjoys the fact that by pure luck, their dog won a prize given out by some judge. I hate it. 

Dogs are not here to provide us with entertainment nor to be our work slave. 

A few years ago, there was a story in the paper about a show dog who escaped at the airport, a whippet (remember the Whippet angel in "all dogs go to heaven" ya know, when Charlie goes to heaven in the begining? - my fav cartoon movie  " well they didnt catch it for a few weeks and then the story faded, not sure if they ever did. 

Part of me was sad that this dog may have to go without food and water and have a warm place to sleep, but part of me was Happy! Go Whippiet, be free! no more being crated from show to show so you can win prizes for humans so they can feel special about themselves. 

Im sorry if I may offend some people with this post, and im not sure why i even decided to post it now. I guess its just always bugged me. 

When a person decides to train their dog to do agility or be a show dog, are they doing it to benifit the dog, who has no idea what a prize is, or a medal is. Or are they doing it for their own needs?


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Sad thing is the Whippet got free around JFK airport in NY. If anyone is familiar with that area it is not the best place to "run free"--the Belt Parkway alone is a reason not to run free. At the last Westminster Dog show in January they did a whole segment on this Whippet and asked for help in finding him/her so it is really not forgotten.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

vanbum said:


> Hearding breeds? ack. ya know what, I hate people who get a dog for a needy purpose to serve themselves, like for protection or to heard something or whatever. Were dogs put on this planet to serve us?
> 
> I even hate Agility and Dog shows - they only exist to please humans, a dog who wins Agility or a Dog Show has no idea whats going on, its just the stupid owner who enjoys the fact that by pure luck, their dog won a prize given out by some judge. I hate it.
> 
> ...


Wow...spoken like a card carrying member of PETA  

Do dogs know what ribbons or a trophy are? Of course not...those are for the humans. But that doesn't mean they don't love every second of whatever sport their owner has entered them in.

Personally, I don't "get" dog shows...but I've been to a couple and all the dogs seemed to be quite happy and content. They are spending time with their human, getting out and about to see and do new things...I can see how some dogs would like it. It's my understanding that dogs who *don't* like the show scene are often retired from it, b/c like all other dog sports, you can't really make a dog do it <and do it well>.

Are dogs here to serve humans? Well, I suppose it could be debated that they are. And that the servitude goes both ways  The relationship between dogs and humans has always been one of mutual benefit. The dogs provide the humans with something we need and want (companionship, protection, hunting, etc...) and in return, the humans provide the dog with something they need and want (protection, security, companionship...).

Some of our dogs lure course (I wish they all could!)...is it fun and entertaining for the humans...you bet it is!! It's also a LOT of work and $$$. The dogs get to just show up and do what _they _love to do...chase! Everything from pre-event training/conditioning to the actual field trial, the dogs love spending time with me and my husband. Do they care about the ribbons or the titles? Nah....they could care less. But they still benefit from and enjoy the sport. If they didn't, I wouldn't (and couldn't) *make *them do it. In fact, we have a greyhound who looooooooooooves to chase, but doesn't enjoy the training aspect (she hates walks and getting her to run w/o a lure is practically impossible)...so she's retired from lure coursing. If she doesn't enjoy every aspect of it, she shouldn't have to do it. We are trying her out in straight racing though, b/c I think she will enjoy that more and it requires less intensive training. I certainly have my handsful with the other dogs and their coursing events, but I know that Harmony wants to do *something* so I'm trying to find something that *will* make her happy and fulfill her that will also be something that I enjoy doing with her...I guess, in your mind, that's a bad thing.  

I know the agility trials I've seen are nothing but happy, excited dogs who appear to love every single second of what they are doing! How can you be against that? Handler and hound being happy.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

vanbum said:


> Hearding breeds? ack. ya know what, I hate people who get a dog for a needy purpose to serve themselves, like for protection or to heard something or whatever. Were dogs put on this planet to serve us?
> 
> I even hate Agility and Dog shows - they only exist to please humans, a dog who wins Agility or a Dog Show has no idea whats going on, its just the stupid owner who enjoys the fact that by pure luck, their dog won a prize given out by some judge. I hate it.
> 
> ...




From your post i can see that you know little about dogs. Go to some working events and watch the dogs and you tell me that the dogs do not enjoy what they are doing. What do you think a dog should do? Nothing! that would be sad.


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

Oh the abuse I give my dogs...clearly they are hating every moment of this....oh someone call the humane society on me as I am the worst owner in the world for actually getting off my lazy butt and working my dogs!!!! Allowing them to do what they have been bred to do, allowing them to do what they LOVE!!!!!







Trust me, its impossible to get a dog who doesnt want to pull to do it. They will just simply lie down, or run in the perfect spot that they can keep up with the team but not actually be pulling anything. Dogs love it when they have a job. A purpose in life if you will....and no, ""holding down the couch"" doesnt count as a job! If they arent given one they will find one for themselves such as patroling the yard or something.

I dont compete in dogsledding for pretty ribbons or titles. I do it because my dogs love it. Heck, I didnt even make it out to a single race this year!! I know I dont have the fastest team out there but I dont care. When I attend a race my only goal is for all of us to have fun and I aim to beat our personal best time. I''ve come dead last at races before, but you know what? I left the trail smiling as big of a smile as the days we placed because we had beaten our best time by 2 minutes!!! I was so proud of my dogs!

If I dont give my dogs work they go stir crazy. merely walking around town just isnt enough for them. Ronan will literally sit and stare at me, pleading for me to reach for the harnesses if its been too long since our last run. I often joke that if I were to ever hang up the harnesses for good, Ronan would literally kill me in my sleep! LOL


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Oh the abuse I give my dogs...clearly they are hating every moment of this....oh someone call the humane society on me as I am the worst owner in the world for actually getting off my lazy butt and working my dogs!!!! Allowing them to do what they have been bred to do, allowing them to do what they LOVE!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think dog sledding is fascinating. The scenes in the movie 8 Below, were awe inspiring. Must be fun.......


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I can speak from the conformation end of things. Most dogs you see showing absolutely love it. They seem to feed off of handlers excitement. It always amazes me how the dog that wins is always jumping up and down. I think it's because they can tell the handler is pleased. Anyways...

Dogs that do not enjoy showing do not show well. They often times sulk around the ring, refuse to hold their tail up, etc. I can assure you a dog that doesn't show well won't be shown for long as long as the owners/handlers have any common sense. The handlers I've been around will not handle a dog that does not enjoy it. Sometimes they try to socialize the dog more, many times the dog is never shown again. My dog's half sister absolutely hated being shown. So she's not showing any more. My dog, however, loved it. He really enjoys pleasing humans, so he'd act so perfect in the ring. He's very outgoing and animated. He just did very well and if you ask me he seemed to enjoy it. Same with obedience. 

Shows are somtehing I'm going to be involved in as long as I'm in dogs and especially if I ever get into the breeding aspect of dogs and especially toy breeds. There's not any 'work' a toy breed is bred for that I can test my dogs with. Sure agility and obedience are fun but they really say little about how the dog compares to others of the breed. I can see herders and other working breeds putting traits like herding first. Those are instinctual and not something any dog (basically) can do with training. Yes, the ribbons are for me (though I have seen dogs carrying their own ribbons around the show in their mouths). But I like to know how close my dog is to standard and to compare him to other potential breeding stock. He enjoyed getting out on the weekends and going new places, meeting new people, and new dogs. 

I fail to see how that is abusive in any way.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Wow vanbum, you have a whole lots of guts calling me selfish. Saying everyone who shows or competes their dogs is selfish and only into their dogs for the prizes and the money that they get? 
Do you think you are so much better? Are you not the person who is driving around the country in your van with 5 dogs? IMO I feel bad for your dogs and I could call you selfish and a bad dog owner just as easily. Do your dogs have 24 hour access to a safe, enclosed yard that they can run around in? Do they get to go for walks every day? Do they have access to water and food whenever they want it every day? Do they have regualar vetrinary access? Leaving dogs inside a car is dangerous especially in warm or cold weather. They tend to die. I think that your life style is not suited for a dog personally but you don't hear me walking around saying your a bad person. You love your dogs and truly believe that what you are doing is right for them. That is debatable IMO. 
My dogs have 24 hour access to a very large enclose safe yard. They go for two sometimes three walks a day. Have access to water and food whenever they want it and they have a vetrinarian. And by the way they happen to love agility trials. I know they do because when theys see their harnesses they go berserk and start running around the house and barking and jumping up and the door and myself. They run straight for the car and when they get out I don't even have to ask them anymore they go over the jumps and frames and through the poles and tubes, they do it for fun not food or because I make them, because they enjoy it. I would never force my dogs to do something they don't want to do EVER!
I agree with lovemygreys. You sound like a member of PETA or worse ALF.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Wow, I didn't know there were this many ways to abuse your dogs.  We must be creative- agility, obedience, conformation, weight pulling, sledding, lure coursing, herding, hunting... So uh... what CAN we do with our dogs? 

I can assure you that my little 'show dog'- who is _obviously_ only there to boost my ego and make me feel special by winning ribbon after ribbon- is first and foremost my companion. Yes, I am happy when he wins, but I'm also happy when he just does his best. He's my buddy and he's perfectly content. 

I guess I'm doing better as he's not showing right now, but we are doing obedience, which is also _obviously_ only for my benefit to make him 'work'. nevermind the fact he enjoys going and seeing his sister and that he likes to work with his people. That and it makes him a much better ambassador for small dogs in the fact that he's actually trained...


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

My dogs dont get stuck in a crate all day in the back of some pickup headed to a dog show so that their owners can feel happy that their dog "won" something. If you want to personally attack me then go ahead, but how many of you would go this far to keep the dogs they love? Not many I bet. 

I used to work at a stable for show horses, it was rare for me to see an owner of a horse, the owners paid people like me to care for their horses between shows. Im betting that "most" dog shows are the same way - sure theres a handful of caring family dog owners who enter their family pet, but im willing to bet you that MOST of those show dogs are being kept at a kennel somewhere and some rich clown is paying somebody to groom them and feed them etc...... 

Please tell me im wrong, tell me that all show dogs are owned by a loving family who cares for the dog and not some greedy idiot who just wants to brag about the medals their dog won over "tea time" 

I wish. 

Anyway. this topic is about pit bulls - if you want to personally attack me- please do so in my topic and I will gladly defend my actions.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

vanbum said:


> My dogs dont get stuck in a crate all day in the back of some pickup headed to a dog show so that their owners can feel happy that their dog "won" something. If you want to personally attack me then go ahead, but how many of you would go this far to keep the dogs they love? Not many I bet.
> 
> I used to work at a stable for show horses, it was rare for me to see an owner of a horse, the owners paid people like me to care for their horses between shows. Im betting that "most" dog shows are the same way - sure theres a handful of caring family dog owners who enter their family pet, but im willing to bet you that MOST of those show dogs are being kept at a kennel somewhere and some rich clown is paying somebody to groom them and feed them etc......
> 
> ...



If you don't KNOW and are only ASSUMING, why would you make the worst possible assumption: that *most* show dogs are not first and formost, pets. We dont' have show dogs but know many, MANY great dog people who do. Their show dogs also compete in lure coursing, agility, obedience,flyball, tracking...you name it. Showing is only one facet of their relationship with that dog.

Last weekend I was standing on a field in the middle of Georgie with tears streaming down my face as my little girl, who failed at the race track, ran the most beautiful course in her entire coursing career...and as the end of it, as I pulled her off "the bunny" (plastic bags), she was wagging her tail and had the happiest expression...pulling on the leash for another chance to run. She KNEW she was having a fantastic day on the field. Yes, I was happy that the judges decided she was the best dog on the field that day...it validates to me that the training and work I'm doing with my dogs is headed in the right direction...but if she hadn't "won," I would have been JUST as happy and JUST as proud. Ribbons and titles are nice....but the time you spend and experiences you have with your "working dog" are _priceless_.


....and I have NEVER seen a show dog transported to a show in the back of a pick up  Travelling with dogs in crates is a safety measure many people use because they LOVE their dogs and want them to be as safe as possible in the event of an accident.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well obviously some dogs that show are owned by people that get all their glory out of their dog winning. There are rotten eggs in ALL sports and competitions. 

I know a girl who hasn't seen her dog in a year. She doesn't even know where he is showing half the time. He's top 10 BOB winner at Westminster, but how much of a pet is that? Not much. But many times these dogs end up bonding more with their handlers than their owners. 

Certain celebrities own dogs that are winning all over the place that never see their dogs, true. 

Even dogs with handlers are not mistreated. The handlers often times really do care about the dogs they are in charge of. They know what they are doing. A unhappy, uhealthy dog does not do well in the ring. It's a business for them. If they want work, they need to win. Sure, it's not all sunshine and roses but a professional handler is just that, professional. Many times they handle dogs for years. Yes, they do get attatched. 

You say you are 'betting' that dog shows work the same way. Have you ever been involved in showing? Have you ever been to a dog show? The vast majority of people there really do care about their dogs. Most people at shows at least in my breed are small kennels who either show their own dogs or have handlers on their dogs- and no, just because they have a handler does not mean they don't care about their dogs or that they are rich. There's many many reasons to have someone handle your dog, but I won't go into that. There are actually quite a few owner handlers around too. Many exhibitors regardless of whether they handle their dog or not go to shows to watch their dog show. A lot of 'show people' are retired and have nothing better to do than travel with their dogs and show across country. 

I don't know, it seems a bit presumptuous to be commenting on something you've never been around.

Ah yes, the many abuses of dog shows:




























And here's my depressed 'show dog':


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

Know why the whippet ran away at the airport? because it was going to again be loaded onto a crate and stuffed in the cargo section of a large airplane. Do you know how loud the engine is of a jet airplane? Can you imagine a a dog like a Whippet going through that? No wonder it ran like hell. 

I like to believe the Whippet was rescued by a loving family who didnt want to see it go through the hell of "dog shows" anymore. 

Let me clarify one thing. Im not too concerned with small time dog shows where you take a family pet to a local dog show and have fun and good times. Personaly, I wouldnt do it, unless I just happened to have a dog that looked really good and if all I had to do was walk him around on a leash then sure. But im not gonna yank his leash or force the dog in any way to do something he does not want to do in the name of "training" him, thats where I draw the line. 

Its the large national circuit of dog shows that I really cant stand (like the one the Whippet was in) in which they BREED many hundreds of dogs in hopes of getting that ONE show quality dog. What do you think happens to those dogs that are bread who dont qualify to be in a show? Do you seriously think they all end up in good homes? Do any of you know what goes on behind the scenes at the kennels these show dogs are bread at? 

We didnt know what goes on behind the scenes in the greyhound racing industry until they found the bodies of dogs who were shot in the head and dumped in a field. 

The Pro Circuit dog shows do more to harm dogs then it does to help them. Every single dog you see perfectly walking around in a circle and standing straight while its teeth are checked do it because they were FORCED to do that, NOT because the dog wants to. 

I can have the same amout of fun with my dogs in the park without making them run through loops and jump over things and walk straight and sit still while someone inspects their teeth. 

The whippet on the airplane states my case perfectly. 

Well... some of you probably believe that Whippet was looking forward to its fun ride home I bet.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

vanbum said:


> Know why the whippet ran away at the airport? because it was going to again be loaded onto a crate and stuffed in the cargo section of a large airplane. Do you know how loud the engine is of a jet airplane? Can you imagine a a dog like a Whippet going through that? No wonder it ran like hell.
> 
> I like to believe the Whippet was rescued by a loving family who didnt want to see it go through the hell of "dog shows" anymore.
> 
> ...


Um... your perception of dog shows and people that show dogs is horribly wrong. 

I *do* AKC showing. 'National circuit' or whatever you want to call it. I've *worked* with several AKC show breeders that you keep insisting you know so much about. 

These kennels that breed most of the show dogs have one or two litters a year. The ones that do not make it are sold on spay/neuter contracts and sold to pet homes. I have one of them. He's a show reject. I've had him over 10 years. His breeder _still_ talks to us. Still checks up on how he's doing. She'll still take him back if we were to have to get rid of him. Beau, our 'show dog', and Harry's breeder talks to us at least once or twice a month- more if we're showing. These people care so much about their dogs and I find it ridiculous that you sit here and assume things about them when you've never been around them in your life. They're some of the most responsible, dog savvy people I know. Beau's breeder has 1-2 litters a year at most- that's a grand total of 5 dogs at max a year since I've known her. All the 'rejects' are in homes being loved and she still talks to them. The show prospects she either keeps or sells to show homes. All the ones that show are loved and adored by their owners. Show comes after the quality of home she places them in.

As far as litters, Beau's litter was 2 puppies- both were show quality and finished their championships. Definitely not a hundred dogs bred to produce one show dog. 

As far as training goes- I have never abused my dog training him. They use reward systems and _positive_ training to get the dog to do what they want. Like I said, a unhappy, unhealthy dog shows poorly. That's not what you want. 

I also find it ludicrous you think the whippet is better off running loose than being home. If the dog was extremely lucky it found a home. Be realistic, the dog is probably dead. It wasn't running from the show- it ran because it's crate came open and ran from the planes/noise. They still showed a segment about her on Westminster with her owners/handlers talking about how worried they were about her.

Stop talking about things you know nothing about.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

vanbum, by your logic, you shouldn't own or confine a dog in a van. I expect you to return your dogs to their natural state - free and on their own. Why are you holding them hostage? BTW, I'm not advocating that you do let your dogs free, but you're being hypocritical.

I also believe you don't understand what motivates a dog. I assure you, a dog that's pulling a sled, herding cattle, or standing proud for a judge is quite content, and possibly happier than a dog confined in a van.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Laurelin - reading your post, it's almost identical to several posts I've made regarding greyhound racing and the complete and total misconceptions the misinformed have about the sport.

After reading several of vanbum's replies, trust me when I tell you that future posts will be as effective as banging your head against a wall. A mind that chooses to shut out reason and information, can not be swayed or enlightened.  

vanbum - I am curious as to why you choose to keep dogs "enslaved" as your pets (to use a PETA/HSUS term)...you are so concerned about dogs not ever being "forced" to do anything, why not set your own dogs out to the wild to be free to live as they choose? And if you want to trot out isolated expamples of bad apples in dog sports, I can match you case for case...and probably in triplicate...with abuse and neglect cases from regular ol' PET homes.

p.s. The whippet ran away from at the airport b/c the crate came open. Not sure what you mean by "a dog like a whippet" going through that, because I've certainly met dozens and dozens of whippets with wonderfully sound and outgoing temperaments.


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## Weebles (Feb 12, 2007)

vanbum said:


> Know why the whippet ran away at the airport? because it was going to again be loaded onto a crate and stuffed in the cargo section of a large airplane. Do you know how loud the engine is of a jet airplane? Can you imagine a a dog like a Whippet going through that? No wonder it ran like hell.
> 
> I like to believe the Whippet was rescued by a loving family who didnt want to see it go through the hell of "dog shows" anymore.
> 
> ...


Hmm... either you're joking, or all that living in the van with your dogs has made you lose your grip on reality! I would be willing to bet that Vivi did not plan on running away in order to escape from the show circuit or in anticipation of the plane. She probably ran away because she is a dog, and dogs are curious, plus they like to run. Also, I hate to burst your bubble, but she probably was not rescued by some great family. She is probably (and sadly) not alive right now.

But, say that you are right, and she planned out her escape to leave her horrible life behind. This is one instance. If dogs were THAT unhappy with this life and were able to mastermind their escapes like that, why don't they all run away?


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> What do you think happens to those dogs that are bread who dont qualify to be in a show? Do you seriously think they all end up in good homes? Do any of you know what goes on behind the scenes at the kennels these show dogs are bread at?


I think you're doing a little too much bunching here, and overlooking the ethical breeders that do indeed take their time to find pet homes. There are also those in the industry who stray into that path with eyes fixed on a prize that doesn't benefit the general interest of the dog, but that does not mean that every person involved in the sport is tainted. Those who are unethical in their deals don't do any justice to the welfare of the dogs, and you are right in disagreeing with it - but to say that everyone does this indefinately is incorrect.



> Every single dog you see perfectly walking around in a circle and standing straight while its teeth are checked do it because they were FORCED to do that, NOT because the dog wants to.


If a dog was negatively forced to do something, they would not radiate a happy expression in the ring, nor win anything for that matter. If it were up to the dog, he'd be running around somewhere licking balls and eating deer poop - but humanity didn't agree with that. It's called domestication, and if that's wrong for you, well so be it. Those dogs are trained through means of positive reinforcement and are taught to like it. I'll say it again, if those dogs were not truelly enjoying themselves, they wouldn't strut around a ring and work for their handlers.



> I can have the same amout of fun with my dogs in the park without making them run through loops and jump over things and walk straight and sit still while someone inspects their teeth.


The same right that allows you to feel that way, gives us the right to want to exhibit our dogs in their purebred splendor and challenge them mentally and physically in performance events such as obedience and agility. Ring life is not everything.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

lovemygreys said:


> Laurelin - reading your post, it's almost identical to several posts I've made regarding greyhound racing and the complete and total misconceptions the misinformed have about the sport.
> 
> After reading several of vanbum's replies, trust me when I tell you that future posts will be as effective as banging your head against a wall. A mind that chooses to shut out reason and information, can not be swayed or enlightened.


Yeah, they are, aren't they? I wonder where people get these 'facts'. 

I know vanbum will probably never change his opinion or admit the fact he's never been to a show first hand or that he really knows any of what goes on behind the scenes of dog shows- what the dogs or people are like. I'm replying mostly for that person who doesn't know, reads his post then thinks that we all shoot or dump our show rejects and torture our dogs into showing. Though how you beat a dog into standing there and showing happily is beyond me. 

Like I said, I know a lot of what happens at dog shows- I know breeders, exhibitors, and professional handlers alike. Most of them are great people. Yes, some people only care about the reputation, but as I've said, that happens in all sports.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

only begets


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Humans and dogs have been together for tens of thousands of years.

I'm sorry but I can't remember who posted it, I think it was lovemygreys, but teh relationships humans have with their dogs is a give and take. Always has been.

Humans do and take things from dogs, and dogs do the same.

As for now, in this day and age, we probably don't really NEED particular breeds to do the jobs they were once used for, but that doesn't mean that those dogs stop loving that job.

Roxy for instance would shrivel up and die if we didn't work. This dog ALWAYS has to have a job, period. Working in OB, agility or just protecting our home because she quite honestly, despite our best efforts gets bored quite easily.

I haven't attended a CKC or "national" sanctioned show to date and we've been attending school for over a year. Right now we do it for fun, excercise (mental and physical) and so I have polite, well mannered dogs.

Maybe one day we will show, but that's far from what my ultimate goal is.

Besides, some of Roxy's best tricks aren't included in those shows. The tricks that we show off with or often brag about don't include ribbons or places. 

It's funny how Laurelin said how the dogs are SOO happy in the ring whether it be confirmation, OB or agillity etc. and I think she's right. The dogs are happy because their either doing something they like period, or just in general doing something with their owner, and everyone's happy.

While I do agree that there are some breeders that take the whole thing a little far, I really honestly, don't think anyone here on DF's is like that.


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## Gracie Doodle (Mar 13, 2007)

The Human Society where I live immediately puts all pitbulls, that come in as strays or abandoned, to sleep. If you try to bring in a pit bull that you no longer want or no longer can handle they charge you for the shot, $75.00. If you are trying to get rid of dog that you don't want/can't handle are you going to pay $75.00 to do so? Didn't think so, imagine what happens to those dogs after that...I'm sure it's not good, the owner doesn't want them to start with.


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

sounds like you are from toronto ont gracie. we have a partial ban right now on pit bulls but due to people who stood up to the government and fought for these special dogs, it will be over turned. we have already won round one and they can not longer call just one breed or state that a specific dog is a Pitbull without documentation from a licensed vet who is impartial to the whole issue. 

THANK YOU ! 
i worked and night to get it this far and those that i have been working alongside will not give up until it is completely lifted. Our neighborhood shelter hates the sight of me now because i am in checking their call sheet and kennels and paper work daily to ensure that they are not killing without cause. 

if breeders that are bringing them into the world to turn nasty would be all arrested we would no longer have a problem. THE DOGS ARE NOT AND NEVER HAVE BEEN THE PROBLEM. the owners are the problem and the only way to solve this issue is too hold the owner personallly responsible for the actions of their dogs.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

bearlasmom- Sorry to say, but from the sounds of it, the ban will not be lifted 

It has been appealed, but the Supreme Court Judge merely just changed a few minor parts of the law, it's still in effect though.

In ten years there won't be pitbulls in Ontario. They all have to be s/n!

And importing pitbulls is also illegal.

The sad part is, the responsible pit owners as usual, have their animals s/n.

From what I hear there are still a number of APBT pups coming from Toronto, because the poor parents are locked up inside a basement 24 hours a day because they are not s/n and they don't want to risk getting caught with unaltered dogs.

So once again, us respsonsible owners, abide by the laws, (even though the law's aren't trully about OUR dogs) and the bad owners, are continueing to do this breed wrong.


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

Sometimes in life we just have to agree to disagree. I have to remind myself that this is not an Animal Rescue Forum - its a dog forum, people dont come here to discuss rescue, they come here to discuss dogs. I'm an animal rescuer and if you dont like my position on dog shows, then you are gonna downright hate my position on breeding in general. 

I guess it was the flashing banner ad at the top of this forum that advertises a breeder that made me realize this is not the right place to discuss these issues nor are the people here going to want to hear them. 

We agree to disagree.

Now about pit bulls. 

Lawmakers need to work with responsible pit owners to create laws which only effect the idiot BYBers and bad pit owners who cause all these problems. Im sure its been tried many times by letter writing campaigns and visists to lawmakers etc.... But lawmakers have to answer to the public, and when the public watches TV and sees pit bull attacks then they demand action. And lawmakers have to worry about getting re-ellected so they generaly take the fastest and easiest course of action to fix the problem and keep the public happy: The Ban.

I hear you cant get homeowners insurance in some places if you own a pit bull too.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I don't really understand vanbum.

Both of my dogs were what many will call "rescued". I got them both for free from homes that most likely would've ended up drowning them (Roxy) or ending up euthanized (Hades) because of his breed.

So I'm not an animal rescuer because I chose to be more than just a "pet" owner?

Because I chose to work and mentally challenge my dogs?

I don't understand...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Alpha said:


> I don't really understand vanbum.
> 
> Both of my dogs were what many will call "rescued". I got them both for free from homes that most likely would've ended up drowning them (Roxy) or ending up euthanized (Hades) because of his breed.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, you're not the only one.

I've had rescue dogs in the past, I've worked in shelters. Just because the dogs I have now are from a breeder doesn't mean I'm against rescues or that I don't understand the dog overpopulation problem in this country.

Many show people have rescued or work in rescues, especially breed specific rescues. Trey's breeder will pull any sheltie out of the local shelters and foster them and place them in homes. She's saved several older or very shy shelties from shelters where they stood little chance of being adopted. She also shows and breeds responsibly.

And a TON of agility and obedience dogs are rescues. 

But of course, we 'worked' some of our rescues as well. Our golden retriever/GSD was quite happy retrieving for my father.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Interesting thread. 

I don't really think that vanbum has a clue about what he or she is talking about, and I agree with Ilovemygreys, he does sound like he works for PETA. 

However, if he did work for PETA, why does he confine five dogs to a van???? 

Ah well. 

Anyway, I'm involved with showing and I don't think there is too much fact in vanbum's opinion. Any breeder worth their salt doesn't breed enough to have an overflux of dogs. 

In fact, most only breed twice a year if that. 

Also, the pups that don't meet standards are sold with a spay/neuter contract. 

In regards to showing- there's no way that you can tell if a dog meets its standard unless you show it. End of story. 

Dogs were bred to help man kind. They love to work and play. It keeps them from being bored. 

Usually, dogs that don't work end up having some kind of emotional problems: they get neurotic, aggressive, etc. 

And as for dogs in the show ring, just as Lauralin said, if a dog won't show then it won't show. And like Ilovemygreys said, if a dog won't work, then it won't work. 

You can't compete with an unhappy dog. If they didn't want to do it, then they wouldn't. 

And what's this confusion about rescuing? I think anyone who rescues is just awesome in my book. However, there are two sides to the coin, the rescuers and the responsible breeders and responsible pet/ show dog buyers. If everyone fit into these catagories, there would be no dogs sitting in pounds. 

In regards to getting personal: I think that calling show owners cruel is pretty personal. If you're going to be that incredibly insulting, then you have to realize that you're going to get some flak for it. 

Personally, as I've said before, I Think that keeping five dogs cooped up in a van all day is unethical, but that's just my opinion.


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## LoveMyYuffie (Mar 27, 2007)

A dog is only as good or bad as his owner. That includes Pits, Dobies, Rotts, and other breeds tagged as aggressive.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Just a question. How come some posts, contain sentences that look like paragraphs. Each sentence is separated from the previous one by a line space. Is that a problem with the forum software?


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

I'm not give any merit to your personal attacks agaisnt be because I an see a few of you are only doing it out of vengance. Ive said something that huirts you so etc.... 

Im sure there are some of you here who are involved in rescue -and thats great - But you dont speak for the other 4,398 members of this board do you? 

The breeding issue is one Ive seen debated many time, and all breeders say the same thing "oh, were responsible breeders so its ok!" 

No, its not ok and heres why:










I dont want to live in a van with 5 dogs, I wish there was not a need to. 

I know a couple homeless people who live under a bridge with 3 dogs and I know they get drunk and beat on them because ive seen them do it. I know a black homeless couple who have a kitten on a leash and if the kitten walks in the wrone direction she slaps it with her hand repeatedly and yells "better behave cause mamma's gonna tat! Mamas gonna tat!" 

Trust me, my dogs live at disneyland compared to what I have witnessed. And until some of you decend from your state of denial then its going to continue to happen. 

Oh but you want a purebread cause they are prettier and you want to help preserve the bloodline right? Tell that to the animals in the barrels.

Stop breeding. And then my dogs wont have to live in a van.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Vanbum, I don't think you could pick out a reputable breeder if your freedom depended on it. You've lumped them all together as being bad, and you're blaming them all for the over population problem. It's true, BYB's and puppymillers, and puppy brokers are bad, and many of these dogs end up in those barrels - however, if people would be less ignorant about the breeding issue, you wouldn't have any dogs to confine in a van. It's kind of futile to blame everyone without being hypocritical, don't you think? You yourself have worked for a BYB, aren't you part of the problem too? Didn't you contribute to one of those dogs being euthanized? How is my dog, who willingly asks for agility play, contributing to a breeding problem? It doesn't. Her puppymill breeder is the problem. The fact that people buy from these puppymill breeders is the problem. My motto has always been, breeders are considered irresponsible until proven otherwise. You don't know anything about those that prove otherwise, and to include them is shameful.



Captbob said:


> Just a question. How come some posts, contain sentences that look like paragraphs. Each sentence is separated from the previous one by a line space. Is that a problem with the forum software?


I'm guessing it's the OP's style, or pause for thought.


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## Maril (Jan 29, 2007)

Vanbum. posted to you before, didn't have time to catch up on all 200+ post, but will later. Whatever 'sins' you may have committed, I hold with my respect that you love and are doing the best you can for your dogs, and have not abandoned them. I am a spay and neuter fanatic. I have one BYB dog and 10 rescues. I bred and showed dogs for about 10 years. I had a BIS Champion Dane bitch I bred twice in her life. Her brother was the top Working Dog in the country, and 4th ranked all breed. Her sire was the 
4th ranked working dog. I trialed and bred Jack Russels and Patterdale Terriers. I bred responsibly and placed pups carefully to show and pet homes. When I woke up to 'the problem' as you so painfully illustrated (my tears have not dried) i stopped breeding anything for any reason, including horses. Someone has to continue the breeding of quality dogs, but it won't be me. There will always be cruel, stupid, irresponsible people. Too bad we can't euthanize them.

Wow, VanBum, you did step in it. I know you heart is open, but you need to do the same with your mind. There's good and bad everywhere. At least they are fed and cared for, even if they don't have perfect owners. An unhappy dog will NOT show. We had a beautiful Dane bitch who hated shows. We tried twice, and took her home to be a beloved pet. Our other two Champions I carried in my vehicle, they slept in the motel bed with me, and we had a ball. They loved their handlers, even though they were handed to them before the class, and handed back to me after. Dogs know. Always. They would not go in and show with a person they were afraid of or uneasy with. I had 6 Danes and an Irish Wolfhound, all treasured members of the family, and I was a breeder and I showed dogs. I was also very cramped at bedtime...


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Your dogs live in Disneyland compared to others?

While take this into consideration: (I am very sorry about the situation your in, but it appears that you have brought what's coming upon yourself, I trully do hope you do take good care of your dogs but...)

My dogs life (Yes, it includes work, work that they LOVE to do, and yes both were s/n at 6 months of age)

Both have TWO doggy beds, one for the bedroom and one for the living room. (I can fit in ROxy's quite comfortably it's THAT big)

Some breakfast, maybe some duck and sweet potatoe, venison, chicken, lamb, tuna or beef. Who knows! Depends on what they had yesterday, we change it up!

Wash it all down with some mineral water, nope, my dogs don't drink tap water.

Some grooming, with mink oil. 

Countless toys, more than I've seen in some households that actually have children! LOL

Yummy, smoked bones galore.

Off leash walks in a beautiful conservation area.

School, yep work. ANd they love it!

A fireplace, Hades *love* it, that's actually where we have to move his living room bed most of the time.

And so on and so forth.

I'm not in denial and I don't think I'm a mean person.

But the comments you have made did offend me. And I'm trully sorry that I have to pick on your situation, but that appears as to what it's come to.

I'm a horrible dog owner because my DOGS like to WORK.

Well if your dogs live in Disneyland, compared to mine, they must basically be in heaven, excluding the dead part.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Vanbum, I think it's funny how you can sit here and say _very_ insulting things to virtually every member of this board, including personal attacks on other peoples' lifestyles. Yet when someone brings up the fact that they disagree with what you are doing with your dogs, obviously they're only saying that because they're mad.

I don't care what you think about showing- like it, don't like it, whatever. It's when you start rolling out the BS that it gets annoying. You keep inferring things or stating 'facts' that have NO truth in them whatsoever in regards to the responsible people who show and breed- and yes, there are A LOT of them. These 'facts' are NO reason to dislike dog showing because they aren't valid. If you're going to be against something at least be against the truth and not some 'facts' you made up to justify the way you feel. It reeks of PETA, I'll agree.

Things like implying show rejects are routinely dumped. Or that we use abusive methods to 'force' our dogs into the ring. Or that Vivi the whippet was running from her abusive life as a show dog when you don't even know her owners/breeders/handlers- and that is a very personal attack about a particular person you don't know. Or that people stick their dogs in crates in the backs of pickup trucks without a care. Or perhaps calling all show onwers 'rich clowns'.

Yet you say _we're_ getting pesonal.

Even the people in my breed that I don't like and don't agree with at all are not as you'd describe them.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Sorry to say vanbum but someone who lives under a bridge and has a kitten on a leash and says things like "mommas gonna tat" probably is not all there mentaly and is living under the bridge in a cardboard box for a reason. Because the government has gotten rid of the places that would care for and help people like them live a better life (atleast in Canada but I think you live in the states and I don't know what the policies on the mentally ill people are over there very well but I can't imagine they are any better than Canada's).
I rescued both of my dogs. I rescued Chloe and her siblings at six weeks old and had both her parents fixed because their owner didn't have the money or the means to bring them to a vet. I rescued Sadie when I found her and her brother duct taped inside a cardboard box in the field behind my house in a pile of snows under some bushes. So yes I do care about them. I wouldn't have left them there even if someone had payed me and neither would you if you had seen what I had. 
People tend to train their dogs not to enslave them or to "descipline" them but because dogs are like kids, they need a little bit of guidance here and there. And most dogs enjoy obedience and agility because it gives them times to burn off steam and run around with their people. Dogs are pack animals and their people are viewed as part of their pack so I happen to be of the opinion (and I am sure many will agree with me) that it will be a long time comming before we can turn all dogs free and have them not associate with people......because to put it simply they like us.
The deaths of the cats and dogs in the barrels is not caused by ethical and reputable and caring breeders. It is caused by morons who don't spay/neuter their pets and then don't bother to take responsibility for the babies that are born because of their idiocy. Those are the people who need to be punnished.
And I am sure those people would hardly agree with you cooping your dogs up into the back of you van. Sure you care about them and won't dump them in a shelter but come on their life could be SO much better.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

> Sorry to say vanbum but someone who lives under a bridge and has a kitten on a leash and says things like "mommas gonna tat" probably is not all there mentaly and is living under the bridge in a cardboard box for a reason.


I know this wasn't meant to be funny... maybe I'm just evil, but I'm getting a good laugh out of it!


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## LoveMyYuffie (Mar 27, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I know this wasn't meant to be funny... maybe I'm just evil, but I'm getting a good laugh out of it!


 I am also


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## siberian husky lover12 (Nov 17, 2006)

vanbum-

Omg Thats Sick! I Hate People Who Do That!


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

......................This makes me mad  

How can you say all Breeders are bad? Thats equal to saying all white people will kill you and steel your land. Or all black people do/deal drugs. And even like saying all Pit Bulls wanna kill every living thing they see. I really REALLY dont like BYB and puppy mills, but I have worked for a breeder and have met many that absolutly LOVE their dogs/cats and want the absolute BEST for them.


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

im not gonna hijack this topic any longer - i see there is already a topic about this called "the breeding issue". its a sticky topic - im gonna post my thoughts there. but not tonight - im in a hotel room, my first in 5 months. 

"indepenence day" is on TV and im gonna sit back and have a non-stressful evening. 

So anyone who wants to argue the breeding issue with me- i will see you there in that topic lator on.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

vanbum said:


> im not gonna hijack this topic any longer - i see there is already a topic about this called "the breeding issue". its a sticky topic - im gonna post my thoughts there. but not tonight - im in a hotel room, my first in 5 months.
> 
> "indepenence day" is on TV and im gonna sit back and have a non-stressful evening.
> 
> So anyone who wants to argue the breeding issue with me- i will see you there in that topic lator on.


Question...I would like to know what hotel allowed you to bring your FIVE dogs in the room? Please tell me they are not sleeping in your van alone?

Not to be rude...but I am really curious.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

We've had up to six of our dogs at Red Roof Inns and LaQuinta's. They are very dog friendly and have always welcomed our greyhounds


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## vanbum (Feb 28, 2007)

well, this hotel is a fleabag lol - theres an extention cord running across the wall to power the AC, half the power outlets dont work and the broken windows are repaired with duct tape. So the owner is willing to put up with stuff the nice hotels wouldnt. I told him I would only bring one dog at a time in but last night I had 2. The hotel happens to be next to a large dirt field that I can let the dogs out to run for a while. 

Im not gonna try and have all 5 in the room but I will rotate them so they all get to come in and lay on the bed and relax. 

Ive got the room for one more night - i really shouldnt - i cant afford it but its soooo nice to live normally for a day or 2. If I dont find some odd jobs im gonna be walking around collecting cans for sure. My vans registration is due on the 8th. ack. 

i just took this pic:










sleepy dobie! Arial is old and blind. I wish I could provide her a life like this for the rest of her years. 

vanbum.com


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

2 of the cutest pittie pics. he is my sister Pitbull, Luke. Very much a lap dog. He doesn't look mean or scary at all, does he?


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

LeRoymydog said:


> 2 of the cutest pittie pics. he is my sister Pitbull, Luke. Very much a lap dog. He doesn't look mean or scary at all, does he?


Aww she reminds me of my Bridgette!


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Kerry said:


> After all I've read about breeders, there is NO WAY I would ever get a pit bull and would not like one being next door.
> 
> If I can't even get a "reputable" breeder to figure out how to produce healthy Golden pups, how would I ever trust someone to produce a pit bull that isn't prone to aggressiveness? The whole business is pretty shady to me. Apologies to those of you who are truly good at what you do...
> "Bad dogs, bad owner", etc. Yes, that is partly correct. But I wouldn't trust that a "good owner" would be able to overcome any genetic traits. Pit bulls are powerful animals and can turn without a moment's notice. Everyone always says, "Oh, not my dog. He's a sweetheart." Yeah, right.


"can turn without a moments notice"

Ignorance is still killing pit bulls I see.



German Shepherd Lover said:


> Personally I see absolutely nothing appealing about the PB's. They appear to me as a well below average looking dog that is made of pure muscle and is a perfect fighting machine.
> 
> I personally just don't see any reason for having one unless you are tryng to protect yourself from other dogs.
> 
> ...


I'm partially convinced that you don't know what a pit bull looks like.


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

i cant believe simple minded responses like this. "i wouldnt leave my pitbull with a child"

YOU SHOULDNT LEAVE A CHILD WITH ANY DOG. animals and children should always be suprevised no matter what type of animal it is. who ever said pits dont have tails? Mine certainly does as does every other pit i have ever seen. simple minded people make simple minded responses. The dogs are not a problem, the people who train them are the problem (that is if they are being trained to attack) a good pit bull owner does not train to attack. A GOOD DOG OWNER PERIOD doesnt train a dog to attack a animal, human or anything in between. The only other problem with pit bulls are those who know nothing about the breed and make accusations about them yet know nothing about them.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

I'm sure there are pit bulls out there that make perfectly fine pets. I would personally never own one...mostly because I will never be a single dog household and I would never trust a pit bull with another dog. Before everyone gets their panties in a twist, let me just say that when the breed standard states that "most APBTs exhibit some level of dog aggression" I think that says all I need to know about whether to trust a pit bull with other dogs. One look at the physique of a pit bull and you can see that it _can _be a killing machine, just like it can be a tremendous athlete in many other ways. I believe in respecting a dogs history and genetic pre-dispositions...I don't trust my greyhounds off leash unless they are behind a fence or coursing. We board a few pit bulls and pit bull mixes...while they are great with me and my husband, I never turn them out with other dogs - regardless of how well we know them (we have some very regular boarders). They can be a fine dog...they just aren't for me or my lifestyle.

Appearance wise - I've seen some mighty fine looking pit bulls. Nicely muscled and balanced builds...dogs that really look like they could do a variety of types of work. 

I do not support breed bans. As mentioned earlier, if it's not a pit bull, it'll be some other breed.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

lovemygreys 

My panties are in a wild twist!!! 

I think I've mentioned before, that I'm pretty sure with Hades I've lucked out genetically. I'm pretty sure I've also mentioned, that even if the ban is lifted here I probably wouldn't own another one.

Hades just sort of fell into my life. Don't get me wrong, I love him, but in general American Pitbull Terriers aren't really my breed.

I agree that MOST pitbulls do show some signs of aggression, I know a few that do and a few that don't. 

I also agree 100% that a dogs history and predisposition to certain traits shouldn't be ignored.


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## nicol25 (Mar 29, 2007)

Hello again greyhound lover. I just want to say that I love my pitbulls and no one can take them away from me.


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## nicol25 (Mar 29, 2007)

Here are a few pictures of my dogs.


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

I love them! Don't own one but want too! I think that people own them without knowing how toproperly socialize them and that is why they end up attcking people! I want ot start a rescue!


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## suzysmitt (Apr 15, 2007)

I've raised pits all my life, and have never had a problem with any of them being nasty or aggressive. I did my research on the lines I was buying for breeding, and met mothers, fathers, and siblings of pits I bought. I have never had a problem with any of them. I find them very loving, but with any dog if you abuse it or teach it to be mean and aggressive it will be. Watch how your neighbor works with his/her pit. If you think it's too much for them to handle you can always have them email me, and I'd be glad to help out. I find bad pits come from bad owners.


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## icepaws20 (Apr 9, 2007)

Nicol25 - What beautiful dogs, absolutely stunning!

Pitbulls are under the dangerous dogs act in the UK, the last time i saw one was about 5 years ago when i was working as a veterinary nurse,he was a lovely boy,the owners had done a good job with him.

Kirsty and koda xx


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## larryb008 (Apr 17, 2007)

i agree with you totally on that i also have had the plesure of owning pits i would not own any other kind of breed but my wife likes the little dogs one thing that pits are not is people agressive and to any one who does not beleive me take the time at look up the most common breed that is stolen in the world (puppy or adult) and you see it is "amstaff" because the are so people friendly


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## larryb008 (Apr 17, 2007)

suzysmitt said:


> I've raised pits all my life, and have never had a problem with any of them being nasty or aggressive. I did my research on the lines I was buying for breeding, and met mothers, fathers, and siblings of pits I bought. I have never had a problem with any of them. I find them very loving, but with any dog if you abuse it or teach it to be mean and aggressive it will be. Watch how your neighbor works with his/her pit. If you think it's too much for them to handle you can always have them email me, and I'd be glad to help out. I find bad pits come from bad owners.


in the city i live in they banned all pit bull breed and there has only been one pit bull attack claimed here in the 30 years i have lived here and was not an attack at all because my cousion was the victim this what happen the dog was on a chain and very excited to to get some attention for him he had a million times before the dog at the end of his chain pulled his front feet off the ground his nail snag his eye lid on the bottom and it ripped his eye pretty bad when the news paper posted the report they made it sound like vicious attack had happen so i called the paper and told them that was not what at all and were they got there got their info they told the victim which was a lie and when i busted them out on that all ask them is to print a retractment in there paper telling the truth they told me no cuz it made a better story there way. so in truth there has never been even one attack by pit in my town or even the whole county and pit bulls are the only breed banned . so my advice is people should only own dogs that they have the time and know how to train and you can give them my email also i would be more then happy to help them out training there dog or even take it home with me if that was the case so dont call dog catcher with out trying to get ahold of me even if they think not trainable


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## lovemachichis (Apr 21, 2007)

i have never met a bad pit bull. i know that they have a bad rep because alot of ignorant people train them to do bad things, but thats just it. theyre TRAINED to be bad, there isnt a dog in existence that is born mean, its the ignorance of the owner that makes them mean.

pit bulls are in my personal opinion one of the smartest, and most loyal breeds ive ever had dealings with, and if i had enough room to let them run id own 10! not to mention that they are just absolutely beautiful! have you ever seen a blue merle pit, absolutely GORGEOUS! 

so please dont believe the rep that some people have branded for this dog, its not theyre fault that people whove never had one think theyre bad. but if youre really worried, just keep an eye on him from a distance cuz let me tell you, if he has been trained to "kill" theres no getting one off of you once they lock them jaws, unless youve got some tranquilizer and a crowbar, their jaws are not a force to be reckoned with.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

lovemachichis said:


> if he has been trained to "kill" theres no getting one off of you once they lock them jaws, unless youve got some tranquilizer and a crowbar, their jaws are not a force to be reckoned with.


This is the issue bully breed owners have, or any dog owner, really, that they need to stay on top of. IMO, yes you can train a dog to kill, but it must have the motor skill to do so. Not all dogs have that motor skill, but all dogs do have the behavior to kill and or bite, it's just that for some this behavior is more latent than others, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with training. IMO, if you have a dog that has a history of killing other animals, regardless if it's a mouse or a moose, you need to know there's always that chance the kill call will be made, despite your best intentions. 

It's when a dog that has the motor skill to chase, bite, and kill, and it gets in the wrong hands, the hands of an ignorant owner, that bully breed owners, all dog owners, should be concerned. Not because their dogs are different in behaviors than other dogs, but rather because as you say, they are a powerful breed.

To me, a dog as powerful as a pit screams at the need for registering your dog. There's got to be a way to keep dogs out of the hands of the ignorant. I'm not looking for a BSL here, but much like owning a gun, why not require all dog owners to register for a dog...require them to take a course in how to own a dog? On this topic, I think more work needs to be done in registering dogs.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I have met many pitbulls that were dolls. Unfortunately many pitbulls are BRED to fight, not just trained to attack and that in itself is where the problems lies--and again it is because of bad people, not bad dogs.


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## kidalcorn (Apr 17, 2007)

I have very mixed feeling about pit bulls. On the one hand, you have their reputation as being a mean, blood thirsty dogs according to the media. But on the other hand I consider rotts. Having been around afew now, I know that the media is wrong but also strong consistant training is key to a good dog. One could argue that a good owner means a good dog but my father and his wife have a pitt mix, it actually belongs to my stepbrother, but my point is that they've had this dog for two years now, I've been away at college the majority of the time, and this dog is very very protective and can turn at any moment. He especially doesn't like me for some reason even though i've never been anything but nice to this dog. Personally I wouldn't have one but thats just my opinion.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Key word, pit mix. Do not blame the pit if it has something else in there.


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## Doggies4Evers (Apr 19, 2007)

They taken and killed alot of pittbulls, if you had one you had to give it to them or move with the dog to keep it or get it out of the place it was now banned, they killed newborn pittbull puppies and even dogs that look like a pittbull or a mix of one, they were killing alot of pittbulls because of the ban/s.


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## Amaya-Mazie-Marley (Apr 15, 2007)

I've heard about the ban and I think its pathetic. Yes alot of Pit bulls are bred to be fighting dogs, but we need to look at the owners. Also, every dog, can and will bite. Its not just Pits..Plenty of dogs around here where I live, are very mean and will snap in an instant. What kind of dogs are they? Every kind imaginable. From purebred dogs to just mutts, and hate to say it, but they are all owned by old people. Who sadly can't physically train them, or just won't. I live in my grandmothers house, and everybody around here, had their houses built way back when there was nothing else around here but trees. Most of them are in their 80's and use dogs for protection, because its not very safe. Is that an excuse for the way their dogs act? Not at all. I understand that this pit bull stereotype will go on for ages, but its not necessary really.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Again it goes back to the "breeders" obviously people breed dogs to bring out certain characteristics and unfortunately some pit bull breeders bred certain pit bull dogs to bring out the fighting characteristics. If NO ONE paid to watch a pitbull match, or bet on it, or bought a dog for this reason or bred a dog for this reason we could make it extinct and bring the breed back to the way it was meant to be but again we have people to blame for making a dog a certain way and ruining it for the others who may not be that way. And, yes, all breeds are can bite but not many breeds are bred for fighting and biting, etc. but some pit bulls are bred specifically for that reason and that is the problem.


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## squirt1968 (Feb 19, 2007)

My neighbor has a pit bull that is dog aggresive he did 360.00 damage to another neighbors dog. I do not believe he has been taught to be dog aggressive however I do not think he has been taught anything. He is great with the neighborhood kids. The thing is if you have a cocker spaniel that is not trained he probably won't attack the other dogs and if he did would not do the damage a pity can do. I use to walk my shih tzu in the neighborhood but the pity came after us for no apparent reason I grabbed my dog and the pity nipped me in the butt. He only bruised me so I guess it was a warning.
None of the neighbors are happy to have the dog here. They do not keep him pinned up all the time. So not only woujld I not own one I don't like having them around bjut that is just my thoughts.


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## repete (Feb 26, 2007)

I don't think the pitbull reputation goes completely undeserved to all pitbulls. I know that there is a lot of pitbulls that are used for fighting and aggression and has been bred into some pitbulls today, but not that much. It is easily corrected by puppy training. 
Pitbulls are not like any other dog, that's a fact. They are very strong willed, powerful dogs with lots of energy and a high prey drive. If you have not ever owned a dog before or can't keep up with a dog with lots of energy, pitbulls are definitely not for you.

i just found a educational video online about pitbulls, check it out

http://gprime.net/flash.php/thepitbullproblem


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

squirt1968 said:


> My neighbor has a pit bull that is dog aggresive he did 360.00 damage to another neighbors dog. I do not believe he has been taught to be dog aggressive however I do not think he has been taught anything. He is great with the neighborhood kids. The thing is if you have a cocker spaniel that is not trained he probably won't attack the other dogs and if he did would not do the damage a pity can do. I use to walk my shih tzu in the neighborhood but the pity came after us for no apparent reason I grabbed my dog and the pity nipped me in the butt. He only bruised me so I guess it was a warning.
> None of the neighbors are happy to have the dog here. They do not keep him pinned up all the time. So not only woujld I not own one I don't like having them around bjut that is just my thoughts.


Are you blaming the dog for the owners ignorance of not training properly or giving it ANY social skils? You even said it was not taught anything. It's NOT the dogs fault.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

squirt1968 said:


> My neighbor has a pit bull that is dog aggresive he did 360.00 damage to another neighbors dog. I do not believe he has been taught to be dog aggressive however I do not think he has been taught anything. He is great with the neighborhood kids. The thing is if you have a cocker spaniel that is not trained he probably won't attack the other dogs and if he did would not do the damage a pity can do. I use to walk my shih tzu in the neighborhood but the pity came after us for no apparent reason I grabbed my dog and the pity nipped me in the butt. He only bruised me so I guess it was a warning.
> None of the neighbors are happy to have the dog here. They do not keep him pinned up all the time. So not only woujld I not own one I don't like having them around bjut that is just my thoughts.


If a Pity ever comes after my dog, the pity is going to wind up in the Vet ER, guaranteed......


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I just love them, some owners of them I can't stand. They just love people but do need to be socialized early because of their pray drive. If you get along with the people next door suggest to them this pup get around as many dogs and cats that they can get it around. When cought up on all puppie shots and tell them to make sure the other dogs they get the pup around are well socialized themselves. This way they will have a happy well rounded Pit.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

It's so sad... I read that I guess somewhere in Washington...Any dog over 30 pounds must be classified as potentionally dangerous . 
I read it on sfgov.org on PDF


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

iwantmypup said:


> It's so sad... I read that I guess somewhere in Washington...Any dog over 30 pounds must be classified as potentionally dangerous .
> I read it on sfgov.org on PDF


More and more people just have to fight for these dogs, I am convinced that will work if more stick together. I went to FL last year and the only place I asked to go to was the Humane Society. I just love to go and talk to people that work there and see how different areas do things. I looked around and could not get over how many Pits were in there! I know at every pound you have the poor things but this number I could not believe so I asked why so many? They told me that Miami band them and they were trying to save as many as thy could. I was sick and wanted to take them all home.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Captbob said:


> If a Pity ever comes after my dog, the pity is going to wind up in the Vet ER, guaranteed......



I agree, but I wouldn't limit it to Pits only. 

I keep my dog on my property and if he is off of it he will be under complete control. If another dog decides to visit and start trouble it has made a BIG mistake. Friendly visitors are welcome anytime.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

nicol25 said:


> Here are a few pictures of my dogs.


They are so cute! How many do you have and what are their names?


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> I agree, but I wouldn't limit it to Pits only.
> 
> I keep my dog on my property and if he is off of it he will be under complete control. If another dog decides to visit and start trouble it has made a BIG mistake. Friendly visitors are welcome anytime.


I can't agree more owners need to be responsible and keep their dogs on their own property!


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## PsiElement (May 23, 2007)

I've been on both sides of the fence concerning big dogs. Even though most big dogs are sweet as babies and about as harmless concerning temperament, the truth is that they are large and if they are large they do possess the ability to harm and maim people possibly to death. A chihuahua does not have that same ability the way say, an Akita does. I've been attacked by a few renegade dogs, especially in my childhood, usually when I did nothing but maybe run to trigger it (no heckling, yelling or teasing, etc). Actually the worst one was by a dalmatian and to this day I am a bit weird around them! I guess what I am saying though is that when a dog is big and can kill someone, it's more imperative that they are trained properly and are safe. Unfortunately, too many irresponsible owners have made it hard on the responsible ones.

As far as pitbulls go, I work at a kennel and doggy daycare and one of the sweetest dogs I see on a regular basis is a pit bull named Chili. She loves to climb on the couch with one of us and snuggle and rubs against your legs like a cat. She's all in all just a great companion and that's what makes me sad about the bad stereotypes about big dogs.

I guess what I'm saying is that while I see why the Government requires people to register big dogs and are iffy about some more problematic breeds, I do think there are better ways of dealing with it. One way is to identify "problem" breeds (i.e. rottweilers, dobermans, pitbulls.. and by problem I mean ones that are surrounded by the biggest controversy in regards to people killing or maiming) and have people become certified to own these breeds (take a class and a test, perhaps). I think a lot of mis-training or not training comes from ignorance, not cruelty, and educating is the best way to stop the problem.

I know in some states and counties pitbulls are not allowed because of the dog fights. I feel terrible about those but I understand why the police ship out the dogs to other counties, etc. It's sad though that a bad few ruin it for the rest of a generally good bunch.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I applyed for my dog licenses and the lady told me if my dogs were over 30 pounds then they are classified as potentially dangerous and if any complaint comes in about my dogs (if thy were over 30 pounds) it would be taken seriously and I could loose me dogs.....just because they weigh 30 pounds. I think that is going way to far. I mean I have had some crazy neighbours who would call the humane society just to tick me off if they wanted. How fair is that?


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Doggies4Evers said:


> They taken and killed alot of pittbulls, if you had one you had to give it to them or move with the dog to keep it or get it out of the place it was now banned, they killed newborn pittbull puppies and even dogs that look like a pittbull or a mix of one, they were killing alot of pittbulls because of the ban/s.


Where in canada do you live? I live in ontario where the breed is baned and can assure you they were not just culling off the breed. The DID kill puppies that were born after a certain day. People just need to keep them leashed, muzzled and spayed/neutard. they dont have to give up their dogs. They are allowed to keep them.

Either way banning doesnt stop anything you still see puppy pits and young (1-2 year old) pits in pounds. And the breed ban started 2 or 3 years ago.



squirt1968 said:


> My neighbor has a pit bull that is dog aggresive he did 360.00 damage to another neighbors dog. I do not believe he has been taught to be dog aggressive however I do not think he has been taught anything. He is great with the neighborhood kids. The thing is if you have a cocker spaniel that is not trained he probably won't attack the other dogs and if he did would not do the damage a pity can do. I use to walk my shih tzu in the neighborhood but the pity came after us for no apparent reason I grabbed my dog and the pity nipped me in the butt. He only bruised me so I guess it was a warning.
> None of the neighbors are happy to have the dog here. They do not keep him pinned up all the time. So not only woujld I not own one I don't like having them around bjut that is just my thoughts.


So you mean this dog is all pinned up out back or so as you sound like you are saying? With no training? Go figure why he would attack no training and being tied/caged up would make almost any dog attack. 

Collies, goldren retrivers and toy poodles actually bite people more then pitbulls have. Its just you dont hear about those breeds biting becuase it doesnt make such a big poof in the news.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

When I called my insurence Co. years ago to let them know I had American Bulldogs the women said they are so cute I just love their flat faces. So I knew she wasn't thinking about the right breed so I just said to myself JUST WRITE DOWN AMERICAN BULLDOG! This way I would be covered.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Jen D said:


> When I called my insurence Co. years ago to let them know I had American Bulldogs the women said they are so cute I just love their flat faces. So I knew she wasn't thinking about the right breed so I just said to myself JUST WRITE DOWN AMERICAN BULLDOG! This way I would be covered.


 I hear what you are saying but there is a problem. IN an attack or incident causing major harm to someone or anothers ones pet, they will run a dna.. Then you can be charged with falsify information and your insurance wont pay a dime..


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Yes I do agree but I didn't give a false breed I did say AB. After reading your other post I think I am going to call them today.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> You are absolutely right Dogadvocate, If I continued to see these types of stories like you pointed out I would condemn them. Fortunately this is the first article I have seen about a German Shepherd. I have had them since I was 5 years old and will quickly admidt that you have to be careful when strangers are first introduced to them but as far as seeing horror stories day after day, it just isn't happening... Show me story after story, day after day and I will condemn them regardless of them being my favorite animal. I love dogs , but I love people more...
> 
> This is like comparing oranges to apples... Lets be honest now and stop trying to sugar coat the Pit Bull ....:



Just a quick FYI here, I personally was attacked by my cousin's GSD when I was 3. Had over 150 stitches in my head and needed a plastic surgeon to put my eyebrow back together. Granted I surprised him by opening my cousin's door, but regardless the result was the same. I was the fifth or sixth person this dog bit, he was euthanized after my attack. Fortunately I have no real memory of the event. For me, it's a look in the dog's eye that can make me nervous about them much more than any specific breed.


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## mr.x007 (May 23, 2007)

i have a pitt...shes the most well behaved dog n the hole neighbrohood...the houses on both sides of us have dogs n there yappy lil crappers they never shut up as soon as i walk out my own backdoor there barkin...she dosent evn seem to care that their there...she plays along great with the other pits, rottys n the neighbrohood...and all other dogs never 1ce had to seperate her cuz of a fight....shes wonderful around my lil brothers "7,8'...only barks when a person other than are family enters the house on there own..the media blows the breed out of the water...if u look at a chart of reported dog bites resulting n injurie over the last year....pitt bulls are towards the bottom of the list....poodels for God sakes r #1....theres a sayin i love "dont punish the breed punish the deed"....yes pittbulls are agrresive...only when trained to be just like any other dog...i live in a better part of the town...and theres atleast 5 pitts on a street not for protection but cuz there lovable..."1 of the smartest breeds"...great with kids family other animals"cept for cats of course"..haha o yea n squirels and ducks to lol


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## cbow (May 6, 2007)

FYI, it is pit, not pitT.
It is a common mistake but if you own a dog you should know how to spell it.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

mr.x007 said:


> i have a pitt...shes the most well behaved dog n the hole neighbrohood...the houses on both sides of us have dogs n there yappy lil crappers they never shut up as soon as i walk out my own backdoor there barkin...she dosent evn seem to care that their there...she plays along great with the other pits, rottys n the neighbrohood...and all other dogs never 1ce had to seperate her cuz of a fight....shes wonderful around my lil brothers "7,8'...only barks when a person other than are family enters the house on there own..the media blows the breed out of the water...if u look at a chart of reported dog bites resulting n injurie over the last year....pitt bulls are towards the bottom of the list....poodels for God sakes r #1....theres a sayin i love "dont punish the breed punish the deed"....yes pittbulls are agrresive...only when trained to be just like any other dog...i live in a better part of the town...and theres atleast 5 pitts on a street not for protection but cuz there lovable..."1 of the smartest breeds"...great with kids family other animals"cept for cats of course"..haha o yea n squirels and ducks to lol


I have to ask where did you get this chart of dog bites? You certainly got the wrong info!


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

mr.x007 said:


> i have a pitt...shes the most well behaved dog n the hole neighbrohood...the houses on both sides of us have dogs n there yappy lil crappers they never shut up as soon as i walk out my own backdoor there barkin...she dosent evn seem to care that their there...she plays along great with the other pits, rottys n the neighbrohood...and all other dogs never 1ce had to seperate her cuz of a fight....shes wonderful around my lil brothers "7,8'...only barks when a person other than are family enters the house on there own..the media blows the breed out of the water...if u look at a chart of reported dog bites resulting n injurie over the last year....pitt bulls are towards the bottom of the list....poodels for God sakes r #1....theres a sayin i love "dont punish the breed punish the deed"....yes pittbulls are agrresive...only when trained to be just like any other dog...i live in a better part of the town...and theres atleast 5 pitts on a street not for protection but cuz there lovable..."1 of the smartest breeds"...great with kids family other animals"cept for cats of course"..haha o yea n squirels and ducks to lol



there is a thread on this forum with current dog bite statistics, you should chck it out.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I really fail to understand how some people seem to think some breeds are more aggresive then others. It's not about the breed it's about the dog and the way it's raised to behave. The only aggresive dogs I have ever met were a GSD and a little terrior mix that tried to bite my hand of. The only Pits I met were two very sweet loving dogs. One of them being atleast 10 pounds more then me and he climbed right on top of me when I was sleeping and started whining when my sister was shaking the bed to wake me up. He was trying to protect me.
I brought my little mini poodle over to the house and the pit let him jump up and lick his face and everything. (This was when my poodle was a puppy and I didn't have a chance to get him into a training class yet. He was watched carefully, don't worry  ) You could tell he was annoyed but he didn't attack because he was so well trained. A simple, 'go lie down" and he went into the other room and my poodle left him alone. I understand that certain breeds were bred to fight but I think as long as they have a good owner that trains them well and is on top of everything they are great dogs and are unfairly judged. 
Any dog can be aggresive. I think smaller dogs have more of a chance of being aggresive because of their size and their feeling that they need to protect themelves, they're just too small to cause as much harm as a larger dog would.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Aggression is a part of every dog's repertoire. It's how dogs resolve conflics in their ritualized behavior. Some believe certain breeds are genetically prone to aggression, well it's true, dogs are part predators and this can't be denied. Then some take it further and say that certain breeds are genetically predisposed to either dog on dog aggression or dog on human aggression...this IMO, can't be neatly defined with any kind of certainty. All we can neatly define is that some dogs are harder to train than others (harder means you need a smarter handler, not a smarter dog), even among the same litter. Is this caused by screwed up genetics...possibly, not entirely IMO. It's always nature and nurture, it's never one or the other...it's both.

Larger dogs and bully breeds are disadvantaged by being too powerful for the common dog handler. So it's just easier for the common dog handler to blame the dog versus the dog handler itself. Kinda unfair IMO, but if these dogs are ever to find a place among us, excellent breeders need to take a hold of the dogs being produced, and handlers need to be better equiped to own such strong dogs. It will take both IMO, not one or the other.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I think that if people looked into the breed the want andwhat the dog was breed for up on the history of the do will help things work out ofr both people and dogs.


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## siberian mom (May 27, 2007)

i am a groomer and come across a ton of breeds. i would trust a pitbull before i would trust a yokie to not bite me. they just need to be raised by good people and very well socialized. but that goes for any breed. i have seen some pretty nasty golden retrievers out there to and there belieeved to be one of the greatest family pets. so much for all those bad pitbull belifes out there.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

siberian mom said:


> i am a groomer and come across a ton of breeds. i would trust a pitbull before i would trust a yokie to not bite me. they just need to be raised by good people and very well socialized. but that goes for any breed. i have seen some pretty nasty golden retrievers out there to and there belieeved to be one of the greatest family pets. so much for all those bad pitbull belifes out there.


That was great and so true, I have been bit a few times and never by a Bully breed and I am around them all the time.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Aggression is a part of every dog's repertoire. It's how dogs resolve conflics in their ritualized behavior. Some believe certain breeds are genetically prone to aggression, well it's true, dogs are part predators and this can't be denied. Then some take it further and say that certain breeds are genetically predisposed to either dog on dog aggression or dog on human aggression...this IMO, can't be neatly defined with any kind of certainty. All we can neatly define is that some dogs are harder to train than others (harder means you need a smarter handler, not a smarter dog), even among the same litter. Is this caused by screwed up genetics...possibly, not entirely IMO. It's always nature and nurture, it's never one or the other...it's both.
> 
> Larger dogs and bully breeds are disadvantaged by being too powerful for the common dog handler. So it's just easier for the common dog handler to blame the dog versus the dog handler itself. Kinda unfair IMO, but if these dogs are ever to find a place among us, excellent breeders need to take a hold of the dogs being produced, and handlers need to be better equiped to own such strong dogs. It will take both IMO, not one or the other.


I love what you wrote and I also think that their are more small dog bites not reported because medical attention is not needed.


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## Bitza (May 25, 2007)

I love Pitties. Wonderful dogs. I have a friend who has two, she loves them more than anything.
This website is great, American Temperament Test Society. 
If you look at the stats it compares breeds. On Page 1 the Pitties rule over the Basenji's and Australian Shepherds.
Makes people think.


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## shitz_tease (May 19, 2007)

Its not the type of dog its the owner. I work at boarding kennels and i see plenty of pit bulls, 90% have a beautiful nature. same with staffy,german sheperds,bullmastif ect... Owner/training not breed.


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## puzzledbypets (May 27, 2007)

I love pits however the only way i would own one was if i found a reputable breeder and could cough up the $2,000 for one. The recent popularity has led to a lot of backyard breeders. People who know nothing about the breed or the history of their own dogs are breeding just to make a profit. Theyre inbreeding dogs and breeding them with othe breeds (like labs) that have a completly different skull shape...i could go on for days its not only pits the same thing was done to dalmations when i was a kid It drives me nuts to see a perfectly good breed ruined by human greed and stupidity


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I really fail to understand how some people seem to think some breeds are more aggresive then others. It's not about the breed it's about the dog and the way it's raised to behave.


So you're saying that if you took a dachshund, and raised it properly, it wouldn't have a desire to dig? If you raised a sighthound properly, it wouldn't have the desire to run, especially after perceived prey? A properly raised basset wouldn't have a desire to follow scent trails on the ground? 

One of the things we tell people in choosing a breed is to learn about what the breed was originally bred for, because that's going to tell a lot about their nature and whether the breed would be good for the person's lifestyle. Are you suggesting that's not true? Maybe we could properly raise a basset to be a sighthound? 

This isn't meant to be argumentative, but just to show you that the breeds, including pit bulls, are going to follow certain patterns, and you just can't take what the breed was bred for, out of the equation.

In my opinion, a dog is based on 4 things. One is breed type.

Two is parentage, if a breeder continually chooses (selectively breeds) dogs with good temperaments, then the dog you get is more likely (not a guarantee yet) to have a good temperament. If the breeder throws any two dogs together that s/he has available, without concern for temperament, then you have potential disaster. And if the mother dog has an aggressive nature, she's the one that is teaching her puppies to be dogs.

Three is socialization. This is tied with "two" above in that the puppies can imprint on the mother dog's reactions to human involvement with her puppies. But just on it's own, if the breeder isn't properly socializing the pups, there's going to be more of a chance of problems.

And then number four, is how they are raised and trained. But if they don't have a good background (numbers 1, 2, 3) then training is a crap shoot, IMO, especially when we're talking about the average person doing the training.


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## big girl beagle (May 28, 2007)

Sorry but the fact is the breed is bred to guard and kill.They have a monstrous little look and with theyre scary barks,sadly bite is worser than bark.In fact they are banned in britain,china,france,australia and even in florida.They are a danger to pedestrians and children and believe me in south africa we have more pitbull attacks a year than three other dogs of any combination put together.A bill is being addressed to make the breed extinct from SA,namibia,zimbabwe,zambia,angola,malawi and botswana.I did my research.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

puzzledbypets said:


> I love pits however the only way i would own one was if i found a reputable breeder and could cough up the $2,000 for one. The recent popularity has led to a lot of backyard breeders. People who know nothing about the breed or the history of their own dogs are breeding just to make a profit. Theyre inbreeding dogs and breeding them with othe breeds (like labs) that have a completly different skull shape...i could go on for days its not only pits the same thing was done to dalmations when i was a kid It drives me nuts to see a perfectly good breed ruined by human greed and stupidity


I think you made alot of good points but I do have to say that from doing rescue, training at the Humane Society, and an area pound I have come across alot of friendly Pits.



big girl beagle said:


> Sorry but the fact is the breed is bred to guard and kill.They have a monstrous little look and with theyre scary barks,sadly bite is worser than bark.In fact they are banned in britain,china,france,australia and even in florida.They are a danger to pedestrians and children and believe me in south africa we have more pitbull attacks a year than three other dogs of any combination put together.A bill is being addressed to make the breed extinct from SA,namibia,zimbabwe,zambia,angola,malawi and botswana.I did my research.


I was in Fl last month and they are not banned in all of FL, they are banned in Miami.


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## cbow (May 6, 2007)

big girl beagle said:


> Sorry but the fact is the breed is bred to guard and kill.They have a monstrous little look and with theyre scary barks,sadly bite is worser than bark.In fact they are banned in britain,china,france,australia and even in florida.They are a danger to pedestrians and children and believe me in south africa we have more pitbull attacks a year than three other dogs of any combination put together.A bill is being addressed to make the breed extinct from SA,namibia,zimbabwe,zambia,angola,malawi and botswana.I did my research.


You need to do more research.


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## scottyhmk (Jun 5, 2007)

I think pit bulls are a very respectable breed. I don't like how people are so judgemental, just because of the pit bulls past. The key thing is the they WERE for killing and guarding and such. It really just depends on the owners form of raising. I will admit that they are a very powerful breed and need to be taken seriously. You can't let down your dominance guard around them, if you are a good dog owner, pit bulls are wonderful and perfectly just a normal dog.


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## BratBoxers (Jun 5, 2007)

Can some of you really say the things you have and still be a dog lover!?!?!

They were originally bred to bait boar, bear, etc. They were never bred to be human aggressive!

I have owned the breed and studied it for the last 10yrs. Try actually getting to know the breed and stop going off what you hear. BTW "Pit Bull" is not a breed it a general statement for many different breeds.

I would 100% choose a "Pit bull" type breed over a Lab. The difference between the lab and 'Pit Bull" Type breeds is the "Pit" Is more loyal, easier to train, 100% willing to do what is asked of them. Most human type personality I have ever seen in any breed I have come across.

I'm so sick right now from some of the statements I have read 

They are not baby killers!

Please tell me, this is my 8 yr old APBT or AmStaff which ever you prefer same breed or suppose to be Tell me now when is she suppose to kill me/stranger or my child?!?! This dog is one of the best dogs! She keeps my chickens safe allows them to even roost on her. She took My chickens in the minute we brought them home as baby chicks a few months ago. Just one of the many stories I have of her.


































Does she really deserve the rep she gets? No. Very sad that some of you feel the way you do.

This breed is not a guard dog by any means, they will protect their humans. Tigger actually saved my friend from being beaten by her husband. 

Its about breeding the right temperament and placing in an appropriate home, not for the first time dog owner IMO. 

Try watching the Dog whisper see how Cesar keeps all of the dogs and dog breeds including "Pit bull" types many of them.

They are not blood thirsty animals that can be controlled. 

Just think about what some of you have said because it could be your reed targeted by the media next remember it used to be the Dob, Rot, GSD.

My Kennel club is actually trying to fight BSL here! Why should I loose my family pet because of stupid ppl?!?


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

scotty said:


> I think pit bulls are a very respectable breed. I don't like how people are so judgemental, just because of the pit bulls past. The key thing is the they WERE for killing and guarding and such. It really just depends on the owners form of raising. I will admit that they are a very powerful breed and need to be taken seriously. You can't let down your dominance guard around them, if you are a good dog owner, pit bulls are wonderful and perfectly just a normal dog.


Staying on your toes! You are right there are numerous breeds that require the owner to be on there toes mine is one even though they haver been anything but lovable, I have had alot through my house and I am always aware of what they can do! They are also bred for the same as a pit!



BratBoxers said:


> Can some of you really say the things you have and still be a dog lover!?!?!
> 
> They were originally bred to bait boar, bear, etc. They were never bred to be human aggressive!
> 
> ...


thoes pics are so sweet!


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## everest (May 29, 2007)

BratBoxers said:


> Can some of you really say the things you have and still be a dog lover!?!?!
> 
> They were originally bred to bait boar, bear, etc. They were never bred to be human aggressive!
> 
> ...


Cesar has a lot of pit bulls, because a lot of their previous owners couldnt handle them, and most people that own a pit bull arent cesar. I'm sure your dog is great, but i'm tired of hearing how gentle pit bulls are, yes under good circumstances with a good owner like yourself, i'm sure their great. BUT, a pit bull with a bad owner becomes more dangerous than other breeds. Maybe i just feel different because i've had bad experiences with pit bulls personally and with people i know, and i'm not bashing how you feel, just stating they can be very dangerous.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

everest said:


> BUT, a pit bull with a bad owner becomes more dangerous than other breeds.


 Maybe a small toy dog, but not any other breed. That is just rediculous. ANY large dog with a bad owner can be dangerous. Dobermans, Saint Bernards, Mastiffs, Newfoundlands, Great Pyrs, German Shepherds, Cattle Dogs, Labradors, Boxers, Huskies, Malamutes, Chows, Border Collies, Rotties, Pointers, Bulldogs, Akitas, Airedale Terriers, Kerry Blue Terriers, Giant Schnauzers...any large breed dog is capable of hurting/killing someone. 

I work in a boarding kennel. The only dogs that have ever tried to attack me were:
3 mini poodles
2 Huskies
1 Chinese Sharpei (this one almost succeeded...luckly, he wasn't bent on killing me, because if I held still and/or ignored him, he was fine.)
1 Bulldog
3 Labs
1 GSD
2 Border Collies
1 JRT (this one actually succeeded...I still have a scar on my hand from her)

and then in grooming:
2 Pugs
2 Chihuahuas
1 American Eskimo Dog
1 Labrador
1 Husky
1 Lab/Husky mix
numerous other small fluffy dogs.
and a couple of sedate dogs. One sedated Cocker hated being groomed so much that even under sedation he kept jerking his head to try and bite me while I was giving him a bath.
I'm sure that I missed a few, because dogs being butts for their bathes and grooms are pretty common, sadly.

And its funny...the three sweetest dogs I've ever had to bathe and board were two Pitties and a Wolf Hybrid. 



> This isn't meant to be argumentative, but just to show you that the breeds, including pit bulls, are going to follow certain patterns, and you just can't take what the breed was bred for, out of the equation.


 Exactly! So why would a breed bred to NOT bite humans, if raised properly, bite a human? A Pittie WAS bred to fight, however, so trusting a Pittie 100% around another dog is stupid. Labs are inclined to be freindly toward people, and so are Pitties. Put a Lab in a bad home and guess what...it probably won't like people much! Same with a Pittie. 



> The key thing is the they WERE for killing and guarding and such.


 But not for killing people....for killing other dogs. A dog that attacked people was culled, no questions asked. 

Human aggression is a new thing that street thugs are incouraging in Pitties. It isn't the Pitties fault that they are the breed of choice. A couple of years ago it was the Dobes, Rotties, GSDs, and Akitas. Now it is the bully breeds. 



> I'm sure your dog is great, but i'm tired of hearing how gentle pit bulls are, yes under good circumstances with a good owner like yourself, i'm sure their great. BUT, a pit bull with a bad owner becomes more dangerous than other breeds.


 So why should the Pitties with the good owners be taken away and killed when you just said yourself that it is the circumstance and the bad owners that turn them into bad dogs? Why should the dogs be punished and killed when it is the *owner's fault*? (I already addressed the "more than other breeds" thing.)

Should Petey, the dog off of the Little Rascals, have been hauled off and killed because he was a Pitbull? Should Stubby, a WWI doggy war hero, have been killed because he was Pitbull? Should the many Pitties trained in search and rescue be killed because they are Pitties? Should the many thearpy dogs that are Pitties be killed just because of their breed?

Should all Arabs be killed because a couple of bad apples blew up our world trade centers? NO! Arabs are great people. You shouldn't judge a whole race based on the bad apples. Nor should you judge a whole breed based on some bad apples! 

To me, that is racism, pure and simple, only in the dog world and not towards human.

I think that you guys should check out this website:
www.badrap.org
--> or more specifically, this link:
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/breed.cfm


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## ERINRHODES (Jun 8, 2007)

I Have A Female Pitbull And She Is The Best Dog Ever! She Just Had A Litter Of Puppies And She Is The Best Mom Now Also! I Love Her And She Is Great With My 3 Kids Also! So I Agree That It Is Not The Dog, It Is The Owner!!


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## everest (May 29, 2007)

blackrose said:


> Maybe a small toy dog, but not any other breed. That is just rediculous. ANY large dog with a bad owner can be dangerous. Dobermans, Saint Bernards, Mastiffs, Newfoundlands, Great Pyrs, German Shepherds, Cattle Dogs, Labradors, Boxers, Huskies, Malamutes, Chows, Border Collies, Rotties, Pointers, Bulldogs, Akitas, Airedale Terriers, Kerry Blue Terriers, Giant Schnauzers...any large breed dog is capable of hurting/killing someone.
> 
> 
> > I watch the news a lot, i havent heard of many newfoundland attacks, or pointer attacks. Maybe watching a pit bull kill a full grown horse by grabbing onto it's throat until it fell left a bad impression on me, maybe if it was a german shepherd i'd feel differently. Or maybe my neighbors dog being killed by a pit bull that got into there yard left a bad impression, or maybe even when i see 4 thugs each with a pit bull walk through the neighberhood park it leaves me with a bad impression. Like i've said, i'm sure a lot of you are good pit bull owners, but wether you like it or not, bad owners have made the pit bull stand out. Plus, everyone is making the point pit bulls aren't people agressive, their dog aggressive, well i dont know about you, but i care about my dog, and the fact that a pit bull will leave me alone but go after my dog still doesnt make me feel better.


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## squirt1968 (Feb 19, 2007)

We have a pit bull in the neighborhood and she is very dog aggressive. Cost one neighbor 360.00 vet bill. I have a small dog and now can't go for walks where we always did as she is outside the yard some and I wil not take the chance with my dog. I am afraid of them and don't apologize for my feelings.
I wish in my neighborhood they were outlawed. I think there are more people that do not spend the time training than do.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This thread has been stumbling around for almost five months. Instead of trying to scrape the mold off, let's start a fresh one.

Most threads probably have a useful shelf life of no more than about 60 days. The exceptions are the ones with timeless information. Those usually become stickies.

This one has become a stinky.


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