# The Truth About the Ingredients in Pet Food



## dogtorj (Jul 24, 2006)

Hi Everyone,


The article below is something I just put together after a week of discussing this vital (and unsettling) subject matter with clients in the exam room. Their reactions compelled me to put it all in writing. I hope this helps and motivates change. Please give this information to anyone who has pets. It can be the difference between a pet living to be 5 or 25. 

Cats have been known to live to be 40 years and dogs 30 and yet the average age in this country is 13 and 12 respectively. What could be the single most important factor here? If you said "diet", I think you're right. 

I hope this helps,

John

John B. Symes, D.V.M. (aka "Dogtor J")
www.dogtorj.net *
* Read- "Food Intolerance- Man and Animals versus Gluten, Casein, Soy, and Corn OR How We Won the Battle of Helm's Deep"



*The Truth about the Ingredients in Pet Food*

By John B.Symes, D.V.M. (aka "DogtorJ")



A client came into the exam room the other day with two Boston terriers, one that was about three years old and looking pretty healthy and the other being eight and the main reason for the office call. The latter was having both digestive and skin issues and had been for quite some time. They came to get a second opinion because previous treatments had been less than successful.

As I am prone to do, my first question concerned what they were feeding. They told me that they were feeding a popular brand, the commercials for which are all too familiar to anyone with a television. You have seen it: The vegetable and whole grains falling from the sky, leading all who are watching to believe that this food was a very healthy blend of all of the things we have come to accept as nutritious and necessary for us all. But sadly, most people are like these new clients in that they have never really read the ingredient label for this or any food and simply go on the perceived quality of the food. Marketing is quite effective, isn't it? 

I promptly told them that this particular food...unbeknownst to them...was one of the worst dog foods ever made. Once they put their teeth back into their mouths, I explained. They had not yet gotten my "food lecture" for which I have developed such a reputation. (Good or bad, I'm not sure but I have been told that I have a reputation now.) I quickly ran them through the "big 4"- gluten (wheat, barley, rye), dairy, soy and corn- and explained food intolerance using celiac disease as the model. Thankfully, they did not get the deer-in-the-headlights look that I so often get as I launch into this medical soliloquy. They, in fact, asked very intelligent questions and then proceeded to relate what I had said to their own health, something that excites me to no end. We could have spent hours on their medical history and afflictions but they left armed to deal with them in a more effective manner.

But when I printed out the ingredient label of this popular grocery store brand dog food, they excited me even more when they got visibly angered at what they saw. And they should get mad! We all should when we see that the marketing of these foods is barely...if at all...within the limits of the law when it comes to truth in labeling. It is certainly waaaay outside the realm of decency.

Here is the ingredient list. Remember that we are trying to avoid all wheat, barley, rye, soy, and corn. Also keep in mind that the ingredients must be listed in order of concentration in the food, with the highest levels listed first. Also keep in mind that the more ingredients there are in the food, the higher the "dilution factor", meaning that the use of multiple grains, for example, will artificially elevate the meat or meat by-products to a position toward the front of the list. In other words, if they used only corn, then corn would be first. But, if they use corn, wheat, barley and soy, then something like chicken by-products may be higher in concentration than each of those individually but not if they used corn alone. 

So now, here are those ingredients:

INGREDIENTS

Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, salt, phosphoric acid, animal digest, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), DL-Methionine, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin A supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin B-12 supplement, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, copper sulfate, biotin, garlic oil, thiamine hydrochloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite.

First of all, note the main (animal) protein sources and their placement on the ingredient list. Again, by label regulations, the most abundant ingredient is listed first and the least is shown last. But, we must also take into account the "dilution factor", which is a false elevation of the concentration of an ingredient due to the use of multiple similar ingredients that accomplish the same goal (e.g the use of multiple grains to artificially elevate the amount of meat in a particular formula).

With this in mind,we see that the first animal protein source is chicken by-product meal, not chicken or chicken meal. Chicken by-products are the ground, rendered parts of the chicken carcass, such as necks, breast bones, feet, and intestinal tract, not to include feathers, except in the small quantities that may unavoidably occur unavoidable in processing. Basically, it is what is left after the meat has been removed. The next animal protein source is beef, which is the eighth ingredient and well behind the corn, wheat, soy and rice. In fact, the beef is listed after the animal fat. So, for a basically carnivorous animal such as a dog, how does this food stack up to its natural diet? Not too well.

Secondly, I want the reader to see is the positioning of the dried peas and dried carrots relative to the other ingredients. 
In this particular food, the commercials for which show vegetables and whole grains falling from the sky and the bags prominently display peas and carrots, these vegetables are listed after such things as sugar, salt, water, and added minerals. The fact is that there is more sugar and more salt in this food than peas and carrots. There is more water in this dry food than peas and carrots. There is even more L-Lysine monohydrochloride in this food than peas and carrots. So, how many vegetables can possibly be in this pet food? Yet, the commercials and bag lead one to believe that this formula is a healthier choice for your pet because of the vegetables it contains. Does this really meet the qualifications of what we like to think is "truth in labeling"?

The sad truth is that this food, like so many others, is loaded with the things that are doing harm to our pets (and many of us) while being devoid of truly healthful ingredients. Our pets need the phytonutrients found in fruits and vegetables as badly as we do if, maybe even more so if we base things on the quality of the ingredients listed above.

Let's try another food. This one is a popular formula among breeders and sold in the grocery stores and pet marts. The name of the formula includes the words "with Lamb and Rice". I suppose from reading the ingredient list that the use of the word "with" is a legalism and justifies the placement on the formula's list. The reader can decide. 

Here is the ingredient list:
INGREDIENTS
Ground Whole Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Wheat, Meat and Bone Meal, Animal Fat (preserved with BHA/BHT), Natural Poultry Flavor, Wheat Flour, Lamb, Rice, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Gluten, Potassium Chloride, DiCalcium Phosphate, Vegetable Oil (Source of Linoleic Acid), Carmel Color, Dried Beet Pulp, Titanium Dioxide, Vitamins (Choline Chloride, dl-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate [Source of Vitamin E], L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate [Source of Vitamin C*], Vitamin A Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Biotin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement [Vitamin B2], Vitamin D3 Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement), Minerals (Zinc Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Potassium Iodide), Added FD&C and Lake Colors (Yellow 6, Blue 2, Red 40, Yellow 5).


Look familiar? The thing to see here is the placement of the lamb and rice. Note that the lamb comes after natural poultry flavor. How much lamb can there be in this food? Once again, the grains make up the bulk of this food and even with five different ingredients derived from grains, there is still more natural poultry flavor ("chicken squeezin's" as one client termed it) in this food than lamb or rice. Also note the use of artificial colors in both of these food formulas. Do the dogs really care what the color is?

End Part 1


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## dogtorj (Jul 24, 2006)

*Re: The Truth About the Ingredients in Pet Food- Part 2*

*Part 2*

But what about cat foods? (errrrrrh). Yes, most cat foods are even worse, especially when it is taken into consideration that this species is considered an obligate carnivore. They eat meat. The biggest decision of the free-roaming domestic cat would be whether they will have a squirrel, a mouse, a rabbit or a bird for dinner. Can't you just see them "stalking" some corn? And yet, the vast majority of commercial dry cat foods are loaded with the "big 4". 

Here is the ingredient list of one of the most popular dry cat foods at the grocery store:

INGREDIENTS

Corn meal, Poultry by-product meal, Corn gluten meal, Animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), Powdered cellulose, Salmon meal, Animal liver flavor, Soybean hulls, Malt extract, Calcium carbonate, Phosphoric acid, Salt, Choline chloride, Potassium chloride, Taurine, Vitamin E supplement, Zinc sulfate, Ferrous sulfate, Manganese sulfate, Parsley flakes, Niacin, Added color (Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 2)...

...and other vitamins and minerals as seen in the other formulas.

In this formula, note that the salmon meal is listed after powdered cellulose. Also, note that the parsley flakes come after zinc, iron, and manganese. This is the case in a food about which the manufacturer's Website print advertising boldly states that our formula "contains a special blend of ingredients- including the wholesome grains and garden greens she craves." Do cats really crave grains? (Only if they have become addicted to them from eating gluten-based cat foods.) Isn't it a major stretch to call this amount of parsley "garden greens"?

After the big pet food recall, this same pet food giant came out with their "naturals" line. Let's take a look at it:

INGREDIENTS

Chicken meal, Corn gluten meal, Soybean meal, Brewer's Rice, Animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), Poultry by-product meal, Corn meal, Chicken, Salmon, Ground Whole Wheat, Soybean hulls, Malt extract, Brewer's Dried Yeast...

......and other vitamins and minerals as seen in the other formulas.

The good news is that this food has an "upgraded" protein source in the form of chicken meal but is the ingredient list quickly deteriorates into the usual fare of unnatural and downright harmful "big 4" components. At least this one does not contain dairy products like so many others contain. We took all of the dairy our of pet food almost twenty years ago and for very good reason. Why it is making a comeback in a number of misguided manufacturer's formulas is almost beyond me. But this blunder is understandable when we grasp that they decided to start making pet foods wheat-based twenty years ago in the face of current veterinary knowledge clearly stating that wheat was the number two food allergen behind dairy. Perhaps they, too, were deceived by the crazy notion that lactose is the real culprit in milk.

The good news is that there are other pet food formulas that are much better than those above. One simply needs to read the labels and read them carefully, taking the ingredient list rule of diminishing quantity in mind. Also, look for key words like "lamb", "lamb meal", "chicken" and "chicken meal" rather than the by-product version of those components. Then look for a food that is devoid of the "big 4"- all gluten (wheat, barley, rye, dairy , soy and corn). If the food also contains significant quantities of veggies and fruits then the manufacturer is at least making an attempt to create a balanced formula. The bad news is that the kibbling process (production of dry food) makes it very hard for delicate phytonutrients to survive. As it is still necessary to add fresh fruits and vegetables to the pet's diet to make it more appropriate, I would never opt for a food with added vegetables if that formula still contains any of the "big 4". It would be much better to get a "clean" food (one devoid of the big 4) and add fresh (raw or steamed) vegetables and fruits. We can give them any of the fruits and veggies that we eat except for grapes, raisins, and onions.

I truly hope that this helps people sort through the jungle (or quagmire) we call the pet food industry. I also hope that it motivates...even angers...the reader into doing something proactive in the way of contacting pet food manufacturers or sharing this vital information with friends, contacts, and loved ones who have pets. 

It is time for this situation to change. ("It's way past time", many would say). The pet food giants have had their time of taking full advantage of our nutritional ignorance. Whether the manufacturers are simply ignorant or incredibly greedy is another topic altogether. But we as consumers do not have to be so unknowledgeable in these matters. Nutrition is not as hard to understand as some would think. We simply have to eliminate the bad things and consume the good things. It takes a little thought and research to do the former and some willpower to do the latter but it can be done. For the pets, it is easy: Buy dog food A instead of dog food B (or better yet, home-cook for the pet) and we're off and running. For those people who are afflicted, it is a bit more complicated...but still very do-able. 

We do have the destiny our health and that of our pets in our own hands. That should be good news.


John B. Symes, D.V.M. (aka "Dogtor J")


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Great post. Thank you! I feed raw, but I think this might help other members realize the junk they might be feeding.


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## Lightwingcreations (May 7, 2007)

Great post! I too feed raw to my dogs, but understand when people don't or can't feed a home-made diet, so your thought provoking post will help many folks figure out for themselves what is good for their pets.


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## dogtorj (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks for the positive comments. I am a BIG fan of home-made diets. The sad fact is that the average client is not willing to go that route...yet. It has been an uphill battle just to get them to stop buying grocery store kibble, _none _of which can I recommend. The pet food recall helped to change that some, thank Goodness. Perhaps in another 5-10 years, the public will catch up with what you guys have known for a long time.

Keep spreading the word. 

John


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

And what a relief there is to know that not ALL vets are opposed to a natural or homemade diet.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Just Curious Dogtorj, Are you one of those vets that pushes Science Diet onto your clients? Have you looked at the ingredients in that? So many vets push that too. Purina is at least as good as that Crap. I am glad you posted that. I think many people overlook the importance of diet.


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## Lightwingcreations (May 7, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> And what a relief there is to know that not ALL vets are opposed to a natural or homemade diet.



*No kidding!* I just recently switched to a different Vet and I asked her what her stance was on raw and she stated that her only reservation about it is the pathogenic potential. Then she went on to tell me that she thinks that when raw feeding is done well it is a very sound complete diet. I also noticed that she did not have any presc. diets in sight, but she may just keep those in storage if she does carry them. Hurrah! It seems that there is a light at the end of that dark tunnel (vets not knowing nutrition).
Also, I do talk to anyone that will listen if the topic of pet health or diet comes up. The more people become informed, the better. I just think it's so sad that many people don't really want to know or think about what can help their pet lead a healthier, longer, happier life. But then again, I'm extremely passionate about animals and their quality of life. Keep up the good work DogterJ, I've already started reading through your "book", lol. You've got so much stuff to read it's great, and also hard to believe you "don't" like writing. 


Inga, after reading some of DogterJ's site I doubt that he uses any of the Hill's diets.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

It's nice to hear a Vet actually talking about GOOD nutrition. I plan to feed my upcoming pup a primarily raw diet with some high quality kibble (http://timberwolforganics.com/s.nl/it.A/id.85/.f?sc=2&category=-102).


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I think is important to add that when meat is listed in dog foods, it is listed inclusive of water content, after the cooking process, naturally the ingredient would move further down the list being that with out the water content, there is considerably less of it.

Great post!


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## crazydays (Jul 24, 2007)

DogtorJ- thank you for your post! I am becoming more and more educated about the food I am feeding my dogs--from what I gather there are alot of us out there. I have a question relating to your post.

Q- Premium dog food companies-very reputable, have been marketing the high protein content, grainless food theory. I find we are all getting swept up with thoughts that if the food has 42% protein and is grainless and is a #6 rating-its the best there is and I want it for my dog. Every reference I have ever heard from a Vet indicates these levels could be problematic for your dog ie-???kidney/ liver problem.

Who do we listen to??? The food companies are becoming very slick-and with the scandals, I have lost faith. Its all word of mouth on who thinks they know the answer.

Whats your opinion???


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## dogtorj (Jul 24, 2006)

Inga said:


> Just Curious Dogtorj, Are you one of those vets that pushes Science Diet onto your clients? Have you looked at the ingredients in that? So many vets push that too. Purina is at least as good as that Crap. I am glad you posted that. I think many people overlook the importance of diet.


Hi Inga,

No, I do not even carry Science Diet. I stock the IVD potato-based diets for those pets with serious food allergies/intolerance and Life's Abundance for those who want a good quality food that is free of the "big 4". 

The history of Hills is really interesting. I touch on this when I speak on this topic at veterinary conferences. Hills rose to fame about 20 years ago when the pet food industry took that big LEFT turn and started making pet food out of wheat. It was a geopolitical phenomenon that led to wheat becoming cheaper than corn, (part of which has just come back to bite us. China rather suddenly became the number one grower of wheat in the world rather than one of biggest importers of wheat. Now, 20 years later, they are one of the main exporters of wheat/wheat gluten. BUT it is coming back to us tainted, and in more ways than one).

About twnety years ago, some smart exec at Hills probably said something like "You know what? I don't think we should make our food out of the number two pet food allergen (wheat...cowmilk was number one). Let's stick with number four (corn). And Hill's Science Diet was born. They claimed less allergies, less intestinal problems and overall better health. And they were right! Wheat is ugly stuff for dogs and they _DO_ do (and doo-doo) better on corn. 

BUT, corn is not natural either, especially the corn we eat now. What they have done to corn over the past 20 years is downright scary. Check out Starlink corn (CRY9C). Ugh. (People _really _need to be on top of the GMO issue.)

BUT, a while back, Hills was bought out by a big conglomerate and now their diets have wheat, soy and even some dairy (casein) in some. They also use artificial colors and one of their flagship foods now comes in cutesy little shapes. The just took that left hand turn later than most.

So, nope...I''m over-the-Hills. 

John


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

A funny thing happened with me and Science Diet.

About the time I started hanging around this forum, I decided I should be getting a better food for my hyper-active Plott hound. I bought the largest bag of Science Diet.

Before I opened it, I started reading food posts here and started a new search - armed with some information. I took my short list of possibilities to a store that carries most of them and spent a few hours reading labels and comparing ingredients.

As I left with my 40# bag of Canidae, I noticed a food collection bin for the local Humane Society. The bag of Hills was still in my van so I brought it in and gave it to the shelter.

A much more generous gesture would have been to give them the Canidae, but I did not.

I've been happy with Canidae, but I was happy with Purina One before that, so I'll continue reading and considering.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

RonE said:


> I took my short list of possibilities to a store that carries most of them and spent a few hours reading labels and comparing ingredients.


I did that same thing at my feedstore. Stayed for about an hour, just reading. Everytime I passed by my the proplan section I gained new energy.


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## Doggies4Evers (Apr 19, 2007)

Whar dog foods are you allowed to give your dog? are the healthest ones.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Doggies4Evers said:


> Whar dog foods are you allowed to give your dog? are the healthest ones.


You're "allowed" to give your dog whatever you choose, good or bad, but if you want good choices research raw diets (or even cooked homemade diets) or go to http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com and check out the ratings of various dog foods (range from a high of 6 stars to a low of 1 star). Then make the best choice/s for your dog as well as for your food philosophy and family budget. Just don't forget that you'll most likely have fewer vet costs if you feed your dog a better diet.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Yikes! The idea of having a dog that one claims to love and then feeding them a food with one star. I understand not being able to afford a lot, but you are really saving money feeding a better food. I have taken in rescues that were fed some of those crap foods. The size of the land mines they leave in the back yard make me think there was a loose elephant in the area. Keeping your dog on a good food will cut down the amount of waste they produce as well and they will feel a whole lot better.


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## Lightwingcreations (May 7, 2007)

Inga said:


> The size of the land mines they leave in the back yard make me think there was a loose elephant in the area. Keeping your dog on a good food will cut down the amount of waste they produce as well and they will feel a whole lot better.


LOL! I babysat a little rat terrier, Cookie, for two weeks a short while ago who ate Eukanuba. I couldn't help but laught at the size of her "deposits" comparted to Blondies, it was so sad it was comic. Can you guess who's was bigger? Hint: I feed my two dogs a raw, prey model diet. I couldn't believe that Blondie's stools were about 1/4 smaller than that little bitty rat terriers. Cookie might weigh all of 6lbs and eats around a 1/2 cup of food per day, whereas Blondie eats around 3lbs of food per day, not including snacks, and she weighs in at around 70lbs. It was a definate eye-opener for me on how well my dogs are utilizing the food they eat.


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## dogtorj (Jul 24, 2006)

Lightwingcreations said:


> LOL! I babysat a little rat terrier, Cookie, for two weeks a short while ago who ate Eukanuba. I couldn't help but laught at the size of her "deposits" comparted to Blondies, it was so sad it was comic. Can you guess who's was bigger? Hint: I feed my two dogs a raw, prey model diet. I couldn't believe that Blondie's stools were about 1/4 smaller than that little bitty rat terriers. Cookie might weigh all of 6lbs and eats around a 1/2 cup of food per day, whereas Blondie eats around 3lbs of food per day, not including snacks, and she weighs in at around 70lbs. It was a definate eye-opener for me on how well my dogs are utilizing the food they eat.



That's what I call great "output insight".  Very good point!

The simple stomached animal (non-ruminant) produces what little cellulase it makes in the cecum (or the appendix in the human). This enzyme for the digestion of cellulose/fiber is made by the bacteria housed in this little pouch at the junction of the small and large intestines. The horse has a huge, complex colon and can digest large amounts of cellulose like a cow, just in a different fashion. Humans and dogs can handle reasonable amounts (e.g. that found in fruits and veggies) but we cannot digest grasses that are rich in cellulose. That either requires the fermentation done by cattle/ruminants or the large cecum found in horses and other herbivorous species.

Grains like corn and wheat are a bit different but the incomplete digestion of these things is a major contributing factor to why they are involved in the food intolerances. And the small cecum of the dog (and lack of sufficient bacteria) is one of the reasons dogs on high grain diets produce these voluminous stools while the toy breeds eating something like meat-only or canned foods produce those little brickettes for stool. We talk about "the fiber" in the diet as being the difference but it is more accurately the lack of the digestion of the fiber that causes those mountains of poop produced by dogs on poor quality commericial kibble. 

No matter how we approach it, the gluten grains (wheat, barley, rye) and corn are unnatural and downright harmful for dogs and cats, as are soy and dairy products.


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## MayaTheLab (Oct 15, 2007)

Good Post! We fed our last dog CA Natural, and the new pup gets Innova. When they are sick they get home cooked chicken/beef and rice. 

I would like to be able to say I can't understand why people would feed their pets the cheap walmart alpo garbage, but then I see so many gorging themselves at mcdonalds and realize that they really have no clue what they are putting in their own bodies let alone their pets.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I loved your information...it also gives me an insight as to what I need to look for in dog foods since I am on a hunting trip for a better kibble...The kibble is out there...somewhere! Anyway, here's a question, a pet that has been fed Ol'Roy (such as my basset hounds before I got them) and only God knows what my Bullmastiff/pit mix has been fed - are the negative effects already done since they are adult dogs (15,5, and 3) and has it already possibly shortened their lifespans or worse...? I have the idea that changing kibble now to a premium brand will help their health for the future...but has the damage already been done?


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## The Mack (Mar 24, 2007)

Inga said:


> Just Curious Dogtorj, Are you one of those vets that pushes Science Diet onto your clients? Have you looked at the ingredients in that? So many vets push that too. Purina is at least as good as that Crap. I am glad you posted that. I think many people overlook the importance of diet.


I hope not, Science Diet sucks and is horrible.
Only recommended since Vets get kickbacks from it.



ACampbell said:


> I loved your information...it also gives me an insight as to what I need to look for in dog foods since I am on a hunting trip for a better kibble...The kibble is out there...somewhere! Anyway, here's a question, a pet that has been fed Ol'Roy (such as my basset hounds before I got them) and only God knows what my Bullmastiff/pit mix has been fed - are the negative effects already done since they are adult dogs (15,5, and 3) and has it already possibly shortened their lifespans or worse...? I have the idea that changing kibble now to a premium brand will help their health for the future...but has the damage already been done?


Possible their life span might be affected, but switching can't hurt anything.
You don't need to spend $50 on a 20lb bag of dog food to feed a good premium meat based food, but $9.99 for a 55# bag isn't gonna cut it.


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## Occy (Oct 3, 2007)

I have a 13 yo gsd X who has so many issues - including a stomach bug when she was about 6 and a thyroid condition since age since and a stroke last year. One of the few food she can stomach happily is SD sensitive stomach. I hate the stuff personally but it works for her so I cant dismiss it outrigh tnow can I...


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## The Mack (Mar 24, 2007)

Have you tried any other sensitive stomach food?


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## squirt1968 (Feb 19, 2007)

Occy if it works for your dog that is what matters


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## Occy (Oct 3, 2007)

mack - Ive tried umpteenth foods - from supermarket crap to high end things such as that stuff made in france - name escapes me right now. 

She is on pro plan salmon and rice with the others right now and she has crumbly poos - they cant be comfortable. In fact she has started going in the house again - on SD she simply didnt do any of that stuff. We put it down to old age but once I had her here and on that food she was fine.

Im going to try simply adding more oils to her diet to see if makes a difference before going back to it because I have never liked that food


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

LOL, Ok I don't feed anything as cheap as $9.99 for a 55# bag...but the question is whether the damage is done by the previous owners or not? I have no idea what my bullmastiff/APBT was fed...I can't imagine it was anything good considering he only weighed 75 lbs 2 weeks ago, could see all his ribs, was badly abused and used for fighting...something tells me those weren't owners that cared what the dog ate. The other two I got from a friend because she was moving and didn't want them anymore, she was feeding Ol'Roy (because she gave me the bag when she gave me the dogs) I've been feeding Purina Dog Chow (to be honest, didn't know any better until I started reading on here the problems with the ingredients) and am probably switching to Canidae or something similar...I'm just curious if their previously bad diets will ultimately cause them problems. I think changing now has a good chance of giving them a better, longer life...I guess it's kind of like going from eating McDonalds to eating real food cooked at home...some of the damage might be done but you're helping yourself in the end?


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## The Mack (Mar 24, 2007)

ACampbell said:


> LOL, Ok I don't feed anything as cheap as $9.99 for a 55# bag...but the question is whether the damage is done by the previous owners or not? I have no idea what my bullmastiff/APBT was fed...I can't imagine it was anything good considering he only weighed 75 lbs 2 weeks ago, could see all his ribs, was badly abused and used for fighting...something tells me those weren't owners that cared what the dog ate. The other two I got from a friend because she was moving and didn't want them anymore, she was feeding Ol'Roy (because she gave me the bag when she gave me the dogs) I've been feeding Purina Dog Chow (to be honest, didn't know any better until I started reading on here the problems with the ingredients) and am probably switching to Canidae or something similar...I'm just curious if their previously bad diets will ultimately cause them problems. I think changing now has a good chance of giving them a better, longer life...I guess it's kind of like going from eating McDonalds to eating real food cooked at home...some of the damage might be done but you're helping yourself in the end?


I think switching his food will help him. His body should overcome anything previous. You can feed him puppy food to put the weight on quick.

Or a high protein food, but it might upset his stomach to start with.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

His weight gain has been sufficient...he's up to 85 lbs from 75 on Oct. 06...just like dieting, I can't imagine it would be good for him to gain a lot at once, so i'm avoiding puppy foods. He's on a high protein diet as it is, supplimenting with vitamins and raw meats until he's in good weight.
You should see the looks I get when I take him for walks, I get that "look at the poor starved dog" look...good thing my neighbors know better, or I'd have Animal Control banging on my door...my male is obese and the female is in good weight...thank God.


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## allab (Oct 6, 2007)

quoteogtorJ- thank you for your post! I am becoming more and more educated about the food I am feeding my dogs--from what I gather there are alot of us out there. I have a question relating to your post.

Q- Premium dog food companies-very reputable, have been marketing the high protein content, grainless food theory. I find we are all getting swept up with thoughts that if the food has 42% protein and is grainless and is a #6 rating-its the best there is and I want it for my dog. Every reference I have ever heard from a Vet indicates these levels could be problematic for your dog ie-???kidney/ liver problem.

Who do we listen to??? The food companies are becoming very slick-and with the scandals, I have lost faith. Its all word of mouth on who thinks they know the answer.

Whats your opinion???

*here is what Dogtorj answered*
Your question raises a VERY important point that most fail to make when talking about protein levels and that is the SOURCE of the protein. It is critical that we distinguish between animal protein sources and those from grains/soy when talking about the potential damage to our health, such as liver and kidney disease. As crazy as it may sound, those in research don't do this when discussing high versus low protein diets and when formulating their "prescription diets". I find that to be remarkable and quite insane.

Let's look at the cat,who is an obligate carnivore. Their diet is almost exclusively protein...ANIMAL protein in the wild. They do not eat wheat, barley, corn or soy or consume dairy products. Outdoor domestic cats find that their biggest decision is whether to have bird, squirrel, rabbit, or mouse for dinner, right? A PBJ with a glass of milk, a bowl of cereal, or a slice of pizza is not an option. And when the cat gets sick...no matter what the cause, whether it be kidney failure, liver disease or what...all they want to eat is meat...pure protein. Are they wrong? No, because the damage to their liver, kidneys, pancreas, bowel, etc were all brought on by the unnatural grains in their diet and when they get really ill, they won't eat those things. We always have to tempt them to eat with things like chicken, tuna, roast beef, meat baby food or some form of pure animal protein, which is what they should have been eating all along.

It is still unbelievable to me that when manufacturers of pet food (e.g. Hill's Science Diet) make a food to support a dysfunctional organ such as the liver or kidneys, that they simply cut the protein while still using these ugly grain/soy proteins, the lectins of which did the harm to start with. How can that be? How does Purina, one of the oldest and biggest pet food companies in the world, make the total garbage foods that they do and get away with it.

Well, on the way to church today, I was contemplating this and the answer that came to me was: There are two things that account for most of what it wrong in the world...ignorance and greed. the Bible say that greed (the love of money) is the root of all evil. But ignorance is the reason why greed affects those who are not greedy. The greedy take full advantage of the ignorant, don't they? So, if we KNEW better, we would be able to deal with the greed in the world more effectively. Conversely, our ignorance of what these huge corporations and institutions are doing is allowing them to run rampant. So, wisdom is the defense against greed but charity (love) is the antidote. 

These companies are both ignorant and greedy, a very bad combination. I'm sure that the vast majority of their employees/reps are sincere believers that their companies are doing a good job. But as the now famous pastor Rick Warren used to say when I attended his church for years, "Just because someone is sincere doesn't mean they are right. They can be sincerely wrong!". Most doctors and vets are sincerely wrong, with their wrong-doing being fueled by their ignorance. Hey...been there, done that. That was me for the first 20 years of my career. But now my eyes have been opened. 

So, back to the protein. Does animal protein cause liver or kidney disease? I don't think so. That would be a cruel thing to design an animal who would die prematurely from their natural diet, wouldn't it? The fact is that we die prematurely due to UNnatural diets as do our pets. As you have probably read, that is the whole premise of the site and the diet I recommend.

It's hard to believe that this is news to people but...it is! Many people just don't know about the harm the "big 4" (gluten, dairy, soy and corn) can do. They also don't know the wonderful things found in fruits and veggies. They are mostly thinking "vitamins and minerals" when in fact the phytonutrients are even more important. 

Bottom line: I don't think dogs and cats (or people) can get too much animal protein UNLESS they already have organ damage that might restrict that intake. It is the grain/soy protein that is doing the harm and that needs restricting, with the latter being the thing that accounts for the successes seen in "low protein" diets.

On the best pet food, when looking for a good food, the main things to look for are:

1) To be free of what I call "the big 4"...all gluten (wheat, barley, rye), dairy products, soy and corn. Eggs are not dairy, as so many ask me. The fact that they are usually in the dairy case confuses people.

2) You want a food that has the meat-based protein source as the first ingredient (e.g. lamb, chicken, beef).

I then recommend adding fruits, veggies, and some fresh protein (eggs /meat) to these. The best duet would clearly be a fully home-prepared diet, but most people will not do this. I have gotten into "shouting matches" with people on pet forums defending their use of one kibbled diet over another but the bottom line here is that kibble is a compromise. There is really no true defense from that fact. We all have to decide just how important it is that we feed our pet an optimal and natural diet and then implement what we are willing to live with.

I hope this helps,

Dogtorj. 

www.manna4pets.com - Life's Abundance Pet Foods
* Read- "Food Intolerance- Man and Animals versus Gluten, Casein, Soy, and Corn OR How We Won the Battle of Helm's Deep"


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## ispphd (Dec 8, 2011)

All good info...if you can't home prepare, then living in a time where time is so valuable to us, find a commercial diet with minimally 2 meat meal sources in the top listed ingredients will have many many times more meat in the finished kibble than any grain free product or product with "meats" listed. As almost all "meat" utilized in the pet food industry are slurries or a wet form of the meat (like hot dogs meat but with lots of filllers added) resulting in it being very heavy therefore legally listed in the front of the listings but they don't end up as more in what you are paying for, the kibble!...Then add a raw meat, it's not neccesary to buy a pre-packaged fresh meat for dogs as any raw meat good enough for you is fine for your best friend. balance it off with some added leftovers for variety...and you got it! I know it sounds crazy, but i know thousands of people over the past 15+years doing this and their loved companions have thrived and experience desease free lives for years, easy & logical.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

We love it when someone dredges up a 4-year-old thread instead of starting a new one.


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