# Would you be bothered by off leash dogs not in a dog park?



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm just curious what others think about this.

My neighbors and I have some small dogs, all under 15 lbs and we sometimes let them off leash in the field of a school. According to our city, all dogs have to be on leash unless it's a dog park(which we only have 3 of). We let them off so that they can run with more freedom and get more exercise. They don't rush at other people or other dogs. Sometimes they will go sniff another dog if the dog is very close to them.

In my opinion our dogs are not bothering anyone although I know it's wrong to let them off where we are not supposed to. 

However, there has been this guy that threatens to report us and call the city to check our area. His dog is a giant poodle and around 55-60 lbs I think. The first time we met, he had his dog off leash too in the same area and his dog completely rushed at our dogs in excitement. He pinned down one of our dogs and then chased the others. He also jumped on my mother who was there at the time holding my dog. The man then put his dog back on leash and we didn't say anything.

The next time he met, our dogs went to say hi to his because they've seen his dog before and know him now. They weren't barking or aggressive in anyway but the man got very angry. He said "last time I let my dog off leash you guys got pissed. I'm going to report you guys to the city. Or do you want me to let my dog off too? I can do that you know?" He was very angry and even kicked at one of our dogs (missed thankfully).
I think he was unreasonable in that he was very rude. He could have said that our dogs running around bothered him and excited his dog but instead he chose to yell at us even though his dog is the worst behaved.


So what do you guys think? Would you accept seeing some small (absolutely non aggressive) dogs off leash? Or any sized dog for that matter if he/she's well behaved? Or would you be bothered by it?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It depends. I am not bothered by offleash dogs that don't bother me or my dog. I see them often in areas where it's technically not allowed. But if they're behaved and stay away then it's fine. But I would be annoyed if even a small, friendly dog came up to my dog because my dog would react poorly to it most likely. It really sets back my training with her when that happens, and it's happened a lot with big and small dogs alike offleash. I love dogs I just don't appreciate strange dogs coming up to me uninvited, especially if Summer is with me. 

I do let one of my dogs offleash in areas where we can (where dogs simply have to be under control at all times). Her recall is great and she has zero interest in other dogs. She's never gone up to someone unless they've invited her over and I let her know it's okay. 

But I think if his dog was offleash too, well, he has no place to complain.


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## HayleyMarie (Dec 22, 2008)

I think the one big problem with me with having dogs off leash in a public place is that you have no clue if the dog is friendly with people or with other dogs. There are people like you who have very well behaved dogs then there are people like you were describing that have very bad behaved dogs. I have heard many stories where dogs were off leash and attacked other dogs that were waking by with their owners on leash.


The way I see it is that there is a law in place for a reason.


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## GatsbysMom (Jul 20, 2009)

This guy sounds like he overreacted... I don't mind off the leash dogs at all, as long as they're well-behaved. I live in a densely urban environment, though, so it's a little weird here to walk with your dog off its leash. Everyone would be too worried about a dog running into traffic, etc. I've only seen an off-the-leash dog outside of the dog park once.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I think he was more angry with the fact that his dog cannot be let off leash because he's out of control and he was bitter that we could let ours off so he thought it wasn't fair.

I've never minded a strange dog coming up to us to say hi but I guess with a lot of shy dogs, barky dogs, aggressive ones it can be a big problem.



GatsbysMom said:


> This guy sounds like he overreacted... I don't mind off the leash dogs at all, as long as they're well-behaved. I live in a densely urban environment, though, so it's a little weird here to walk with your dog off its leash. Everyone would be too worried about a dog running into traffic, etc. I've only seen an off-the-leash dog outside of the dog park once.


Haha we live in a suburban area so there are lots of fields, parks and grassy areas where dogs can play.

Actually this has happened to us twice already. There was another man with a big dog this was was like 90 lbs and he was annoyed at our dogs because they were running around the field chasing each other. He specifically said he was sick of our "little" dogs running around while the big ones can't. But he was very polite about it. He said it bothered him and it wasn't fair to all the other owners so we put ours back on lead and no conflict.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

If your off leash dog obeys you, and doesn't come anywhere near my on leash dogs, I don't care. But I HATE people that let their dogs off leash, then their dogs come running up to my on leash dogs.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

No as long as they are under control. I dont see what size has to do with it.

I let Blaze offleash in alot of areas where leashs are the law. But what ever IMO. he is well trained, and if I see another dog or person coming our way, I just re leash him. Simple as that. He is a good boy. and if I relyed on the dog park only, there would be days he never gets off his leash. We bike ride everyday for about a hour or so. And he is offleash majority of the time. As he will just run past other dogs and people while we go riding. And when we are riding home up our road is a huge hill, I take him off there so I dont end up dragging him up the hill, So he can keep a good pace behind me, but I can also ride up the hill with out worry about dragging him and going slow.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

HayleyMarie said:


> I think the one big problem with me with having dogs off leash in a public place is that you have no clue if the dog is friendly with people or with other dogs. There are people like you who have very well behaved dogs then there are people like you were describing that have very bad behaved dogs. I have heard many stories where dogs were off leash and attacked other dogs that were waking by with their owners on leash.
> 
> 
> The way I see it is that there is a law in place for a reason.


That makes sense. The problem is, our dog parks here have no gates, no fences or any kind of pens. All the dogs play together and 90% of them are huge dogs like labs, siberians, st. bernards, german shepherds. 2 parks are by the beach so a lot these dogs go swim or fetch and us small dog owners are worried because some of these big dogs get very excited and jump on ours. There are a few medium sized dogs but since all the dogs run free, they can all chase each other and sometimes the owners are too far away to stop them when they become aggressive or over excited. 

So basically there is no place for a small dog to run around and play with friends because our city doesn't allow it, none of us has a huge backyard and the dog parks have a lot of big dogs.

I personally don't mind the big dogs that much and we do go to the dog park every 2 weeks or something like that. But some of the other owners in our group get very concerned that their tiny 5 lbs dog will get bitten or attacked. 

I like to think the dogs are mostly well behaved in the dog park because how else can you trust them off leash? But some don't agree with me.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

We don't have a small dog section of the dog park either. I can't take Summer obviously but I've tried once with other dogs. The big dogs aren't mean or anything, it's just I don't know them and there's SO much going on I don't feel comfortable bringing my guys in with a bunch of large dogs. I have no problem letting them around large dogs I know but I just don't know these dogs. No one ever got hurt but after a few run ins with some nice but very rowdy large pups, I decided to play it safer. 

What I'm doing for Mia is buying a 30 ft training lead and taking her to places where she can't be offleash.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

I think that guy probably over-reacted.. but, yes.. usually I -am- bothered by off leash dogs where there should be none. I don't trust the average joe to be smart enough to know if his dog is going to be dog aggressive or not.. So far, we've come into contact with two dog aggressive dogs off leash on our walks that race up barking, snarling and causing my dogs to run in fear.. One was a pitty mix of some sort, the other a poodle. The rest of the off leash dogs we have met have been friendly.. but it still bothers me.. because until they get there.. I don't know. I don't know why it's so damn hard for some people to walk their dogs on a leash.. Get a flexi if you can't keep them next to you.. There is no reason to have them off leash on a walk.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> We don't have a small dog section of the dog park either. I can't take Summer obviously but I've tried once with other dogs. The big dogs aren't mean or anything, it's just I don't know them and there's SO much going on I don't feel comfortable bringing my guys in with a bunch of large dogs. I have no problem letting them around large dogs I know but I just don't know these dogs. No one ever got hurt but after a few run ins with some nice but very rowdy large pups, I decided to play it safer.
> 
> What I'm doing for Mia is buying a 30 ft training lead and taking her to places where she can't be offleash.


Sorry if I sound ignorant but I haven't heard about Summer's issue? Could you explain to me (or link me to) why Summer can't be off lead?

We have a 30 ft training lead as well but it's not convenient at all! For some reasons Nia runs in the weirdest fashion or direction and the lead gets tangled all around her. She ends up unable to move with the lead wrapped around her legs and body.

I suggested to all our small dog owners that we each get a 30 or even 50 ft lead. But It's very very hard to keep them untangled when the dogs start to play. 

For now, we've resorted to confining our dogs to 2 fenced tennis courts when no one is around. The tennis people are nice enough to let us use the courts and we move out when someone needs or wants to play tennis. 

It would be much easier if someone had a large backyard or piece of land for the dogs to play on.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

it makes me furious. and without fail I call AC and report them.

here's why.

parks and areas where dogs are required to be leashed are last refuge exercises areas for people like me whose dogs have issues like my dog does. My dog is NEVER offleash because she is dog aggressive. I should be able to take her to an on leash park and jog with her without having to worry about being slapped with a lawsuit because SOMEONE ELSE'S DOG is offleash and runs up to mine. She is calm and composed unless a dog comes within her reach. 

I have had to resort to giving her exercise time in the dead of night or traveling a couple miles to find the nearest fenced in tennis courts for playtime. 

yes my dog has issues but if she is adequately contained per the law and all other dogs are adequatly contained there should be no problems.


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## tunisianswife (Aug 11, 2009)

I have to say that this is a huge pet peeve of mine. I'll explain why. I hear this all the time: "he/she won't hurt. he/she is friendly". all fine and well. I have a lhasa and he puts on the 'big man display' whenever he feels threatened. he puffs his chest, tries to stand on his hind legs, and has the worst growl/bark/yelp I've ever heard come out of a smaller dog. People have actually turned and looked because it sounds like there is a huge dog fight going on. 

If my dog is on a leash and your dog comes into my dog's personal space, there is no telling what my dog is capable of, or how your dog may react if it feels threatened. that is where things get sticky. I'd hate to see anyone's dog get hurt simply because the dog wasn't on a leash. (and I couldn't be held liable for vet bills)

I just think people are setting themselves up for possible trouble by not leashing in public leashed areas. Your dog may be fine, but the dog it runs up to may not be so much so and you have no way to control the situation.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Amen Zim.

If offleash is allowed somewhere, fine. But if dogs are offleash where they aren't allowed, well, that's going to cause problems for those that are trying to rehab issues.

My dog is fearful/reactive and the LAST thing I need is dogs running up to us when they shouldn't be offleash in the first place. It happened to us the other day early in the morning.. admittedly the park DOES allow offleash before 9 AM, but only when the dogs are controlled. This dog was NOT controlled, blew off his owner's recall command and went up to my dog to sniff, which agitated her. I don't need any more behavioral setbacks just because someone else's dog is "friendly and just wants to play." I've heard that line too much and I'm sick of it.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I think it's a good idea to follow the rules and only allow them off-leash in dog parks.

1, There's always a possibility that a jerk like the man with the poodle will come and ruin things. If someone's walking down the sidewalk and someone's dog rushes them, you can all get in trouble if they decide to report you, even if your dogs are behaving perfectly, because you're still violating leash laws. You can't get in trouble if you obey the rules, though.

2, Is the area 100% fenced? If not, I don't believe it would be safe to allow the dogs off leash. Even if your dog doesn't chase squirrels and things, one dog may, and the rest may follow because they're all worked up and in the moment. And they could end up on a busy road...

Personally, I really don't like it when people allow their dogs offleash in places that require you to use a leash. There a tons of people at our apartment complex that allow their dogs to just run out the door and wander around for their potty-break, and on several instances they've rushed up to us and scared Basil and I. If I had been walking Sasha (Boyfriend's sister's aussie, very leash-reactive and aggressive) then a dog fight would have most definitely happened. My boyfriend and I agreed that next time we see somebody do this, we're going to the main office and complaining. It's very clearly stated in the renter's contract that all pets must be kept on-leash, and I believe it's VERY dangerous to break this rule.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> Sorry if I sound ignorant but I haven't heard about Summer's issue? Could you explain to me (or link me to) why Summer can't be off lead?


Actually Summer is fabulous off leash. She sticks basically in a heel with me. She's a super clingy dog and I don't know that you could _make_ her go further from me, lol. Since she typically doesn't like other dogs, she ignores any other dog she sees around. 

She is pretty dog reactive, though on leash or offleash. She cannot go to a dog park because of this. And if an off leash dog comes up to her, she will respond by growling and even sometimes snapping at them. She has never landed a bite though. The problem is that people assume she's friendly because she's small and typically she IS a very friendly dog. She adores people and if introduced to a dog over a course of time, she's fine with them. She's wonderful with her housemates and her old housemates. She's probably lived with 30 dogs over her life (she lived with 2 different breeders and their crews plus mine) and never fought with any. You can walk her in a crowd full of people and dogs just fine. In most ways she's the easiest dog I own. But once someone lets their dog come up to her she will get very defensive. I do warn people that she's not going to be friendly with their dog, but most people seem to ignore that since she's so small and their dog 'is friendly so don't worry!'.

If you work with a DR or DA dog, you can help them build confidence but every encounter even with a friendly dog can be a huge step back. After being the owner with the DA/DR dog I can definitely see how bad it _could_ be for my dog to go up to a strange leashed dog. My dog may be friendly but the other could not be. It's not my fault if someone's dog is allowed to come up to my leashed dog and she bites them. I should be able to walk her on a leash fine without worrying if a dog will run up to her because they're not allowed to legally. But it still happens every now and then. And of course most people think that because their dog is friendly it's my fault regardless of the fact that my dog is leashed and theirs isn't.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

I've got a HUGE problem with it. It has taken more work than I care to ever repeat to get one of my dog's threshold down to a couple of yards. That all goes right out the friggin' window when an off leash dog approaches. My dogs are leashed because of a pack reaction that occurs when a loose dog tries to greet. If someone's "well behaved" dog tries to greet my dogs before I can appropriately handle the introduction the results can be off putting and may include blood. That is why I would appreciate if *EVERYONE* would leash their dogs where they're supposed to. Or recall their off leash behavioral wonder until I can pass without incident.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ps.

I will still call animal control if your dog is unleashed and apparently well behaved. 

this is why.

you let your dog off leash. someone else with a not really trained dog shows up and thinks "oh their dog is offleash..must be ok" and promptly lets their ill behaved monster go tearing around the park. 

if you think you can break the law with no repercussions I should be able to as well..which isn't the case obviously. circumstances are irrelevant. if the park says leash your dogs..leash them or I will report you the instant I see it.


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## tunisianswife (Aug 11, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> And of course most people think that because their dog is friendly it's my fault regardless of the fact that my dog is leashed and theirs isn't.


I get that alot. they look at my dog like he is the most ill-behaved dog on earth, which he is not. some dogs he takes fine to, usually the bigger ones he is very leary of when they come up in that fashion. He does fine w/gradual introduction.

again, it is a very big pet peeve of mine and I have had to tell people on more than one occasion that their dog 'may be fine' but they can't control what my dog does when it comes into his personal space.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Off leash dogs don't bother me personally if they are dog social and under control. I really don't even mind them coming up to me and my dogs, but I am fortunate that my dogs like interacting with other friendly dogs. I can see how it would be irritating to many people though, and that's why I'm careful about where I let mine off leash. Normally just at the lake, hiking in remote areas (and there I still leash them if we come upon people), and at the dog park. I don't let them off leash at regular mixed use parks because there are so many people/dogs there that might not be ok with it. 

I actually used to run them at the local middle school field after hours and there was never anyone there, but one day a staff member who was working late freaked out on us and started screaming that we couldn't be there...we said ok and leashed them and she continued screaming get out of here you can't be here even as we were leaving....so yeah, we don't go there any more. We fortunately found a nice dog park instead.

Oh, and there is no leash law here in the boonies of GA...it is posted "leash only" in certain parks, but anywhere else the law states that "dogs must be leashed or under voice control of a competant adult"....so no roaming dogs I guess, but other than that it's pretty open.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I agree w/zim. And if the yahoo with the ill-behaved dog sees other dogs running around loose and decides to let his/her dog loose, too, that ill-behaved dog could be having yours for lunch pretty quickly. 

Not that I would ever let my dog loose in any space with less than an 8 ft high fence , but if I did, my 65-lb extremely dog friendly girl would be whomping your little one in about 2 seconds. Her play style is pretty rough and if I was a yahoo who wasn't careful about who I let her play with, your pup could get hurt.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

I HATE it when people let their dogs off leash with other dogs around. Hate it! 

*Your dog may not have a problem being around other dogs, but some dogs (like mine) do!!!* My dog has leash aggression, she doesn't like to be around other dogs when she's on a leash. 

One time I was at the park and this guy stopped and let his dog out, I had to keep moving farther and farther away from this dog, which kept coming closer and closer! It drove me crazy, and made me very annoyed.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Around here pretty much every owner that takes their dog into the school park or the other park that runs along the creek trail lets their dog off leash. A lot of the dogs on the path are even off leash even though there's signs every where about the leash requirement. I don't really mind.

That said, these dogs are ALL very well behaved. The owners always call them back and put the leash on when they see another dog approaching so there isn't really a problem.


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## CorgiKarma (Feb 10, 2009)

I have a huge problem with it. Your dog may be fine with other dogs but it is very naive of you to assume that the dogs that your dog is greeting are all going to react in a friendly manner. It's very risky to allow this kind of behavior.
Laurelin, it sounds like my Bailey is just like your Summer. She does not respond well to other dogs that approach her. She will snap but also has never landed a bite. She's fine with all of my neighbors' dogs and my familys' dogs, but if a new dog approaches her it's not a good thing. I have also warned people but they either don't listen or don't care. In our agility class I can take her off leash because she won't approach the other dogs, she absolutely adores people, though.
It is very annoying to me that people let their dogs run up to my dog, and when my dog reacts badly they look at me like I'm the irresponsible owner. My dog is on a leash, you're the one breaking the law.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

CorgiKarma said:


> It is very annoying to me that people let their dogs run up to my dog, and when my dog eacts badly they look at me like I'm the irresponsible owner. My dog is on a leash, you're the one breaking the law.


Yes! This annoys me as well! The guy whose dog I was backing away from at the park looked at me like I was nuts...ugh!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

pps.

if there is no leash law or requirement..my dog will not be there. I don't take her to places where off leash is allowed unless its private, fenced in property owned by relatives and friends or occasionally the tennis courts which have fifteen foot fences and latching doors. 

that way..ideally...the public areas where off leash is not allowed can be safely and comfortably frequented by people who have dogs like mine who don't appreciate off leash dogs...and the people who want to take their dogs off leash can take them to those areas where its allowed and not have to be concerned about their dogs approaching dogs with issues...ideally...if everyone would follow the rules.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

harrise said:


> I've got a HUGE problem with it. It has taken more work than I care to ever repeat to get one of my dog's threshold down to a couple of yards. That all goes right out the friggin' window when an off leash dog approaches. My dogs are leashed because of a pack reaction that occurs when a loose dog tries to greet. If someone's "well behaved" dog tries to greet my dogs before I can appropriately handle the introduction the results can be off putting and may include blood. That is why I would appreciate if *EVERYONE* would leash their dogs where they're supposed to. Or recall their off leash behavioral wonder until I can pass without incident.



I agree with this because I have a dog that had nearly killed a dog that rushed up to us with knarling teeth. And my Dozer is not aggressive. It hindered my training for months because i was just dang afraid of it happening again. And i had a nice chunky vet bill cause i wanted to save the dog.

Plus i think the last sentence is really funny.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

I guess I'm very lucky that my two have no issues. If we see an off leash dog, I will do my best to gauge it's behaviour. If it seems friendly, I let it approach, but of course pay close attention. If we see a dog that seems aggressive, I will tell it NO!!, and do what I need to to protect my dogs. Neither of these thins has happened yet btw.

I only let them off leash in designated areas. I have a Rotti mix, I refuse to do anything to promote BSL.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> it makes me furious. and without fail I call AC and report them.
> 
> here's why.
> 
> ...


I see what you mean. But what if it's not a park? It's just a piece of land/grass beside our building and it doesn't specifically state dogs need to be on leash?

Edit: Nevermind! I just read your pps post. 

I never ever let my dog off if it says dogs need to be on a leash. I used to let her off in areas that are not usually busy such as parks but just empty pieces of land and field. We have a lot of them around here.

But now, we're sticking to the tennis court near our area.



zhaor said:


> Around here pretty much every owner that takes their dog into the school park or the other park that runs along the creek trail lets their dog off leash. A lot of the dogs on the path are even off leash even though there's signs every where about the leash requirement. I don't really mind.
> 
> That said, these dogs are ALL very well behaved. The owners always call them back and put the leash on when they see another dog approaching so there isn't really a problem.


Same with our area. Most people let their dogs off leash. I'm actually one of the more on leash people. Some dog owners around my neighborhood don't even OWN a leash. There's 3 guys with dogs that always walk beside them, no leash. One guy I met didn't have a leash (or holding one) with his dog and I asked him. He was like oh he doesn't need it anymore and since the old one was getting pretty worn out, I just threw it out. Didn't want to buy a new one.

I see a lot of people letting dogs off leash in areas with big signs saying keep your dogs on leash.

We used to only try to go off leash in areas with no people and no dogs but when people see us going there, they think it's a good place to exercise their dogs too and things get out of hand and people like that poodle's owner starts to get angry. Thank god for tennis courts with fences.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

I can understand others problems with dogs offleash. IE: running with no control, owner can not get them back ect.

I get annoyed to no tell when a offleash dog approchs me and my dog (when he is leashed or not) But my boy will ignore any dog, rabbit (and we have what seems to be a million of them), bike, skate board ect that goes by. I have done a crap load of training with him. I trust him 99% to not bother with any one. he is the least caring dog when it comes to strangers. other dogs he wants to meet, but I call him bakc and leash him. I too dont trust other do owners with offleash dogs, as I dont belive they are as strict with their dos as I am.

If people hate me/mad at me for letting my dog off illegally, so be it. I will continue to do it, as I DO have full control, Im not just joe shmo public.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

key word there Tankstar is 

>illegally<

Why are you above the law and not everyone else? We might as well not have any laws.


if someone's dog is offleash legally...I have no problems with it. 

but I will report ANYONE, well behaved dog or not who lets their dog offleash >illegally<...because if one can do it..others will as well.


hate doesn't play into it. Im protecting myself and my dog.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm with Zim here. I'm not a square, but I tend to think laws should be followed, especially when they make sense. Not only is having my dog on a leash when he's supposed to be on a leash a safety issue, it's a courtesy issue. People should be able to go places where they expect dogs to be leashed and not encounter off-leash dogs. It doesn't really matter how well behaved a dog might be, I don't know anything about it until the encounter is over and I don't want to have to wonder as I approach if I'm going to be mauled. Or even jumped/slobbered on. I don't want to have to keep an eye on the illegally off-leash dog in order to ensure it isn't going to crash my picnic or knock my kid over. Just put the dog on the leash like it's supposed to be and no one has to wonder or worry.

I live in an extremely urban area where leash laws mean the difference between a pet and roadkill. I grew up with a number of dogs and, as an adult, have had sole responsibility for two. Until I got Alvin, I'd never even heard of a dog park. All my dogs have been perfectly content getting a majority of their outdoor exercise on-leash. I'm not claiming that every dog or every breed would be fulfilled with this type of exercise. I'm also not saying that dogs don't enjoy romping off leash. But given that it is totally doable to at least minimally exercise a dog while observing leash laws, I feel that there is really no excuse to disregard them.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> If your off leash dog obeys you, and doesn't come anywhere near my on leash dogs, I don't care. But I HATE people that let their dogs off leash, then their dogs come running up to my on leash dogs.


This is exactly how i feel.


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## chriley58 (Mar 9, 2009)

I live in a city with no dog park and a leash law. We have a wonderful walking trail around a local pond, playground, soccer fields, ball fields all in one spot. The walking trail states clearly in both entrances DOGS MUST BE LEASHED. I have stopped walking my dogs there - always leashed - as the unleashed dogs are truly a menace to me, my children and my dogs. I have had barking, snarling dogs approach me while their owners are laughing and chatting, stopping long enough to say "don't worry, he'll just growl" or "he's harmless". Meanwhile I am keeping my three under control and having to watch my kids and battle through their roaming pack of dogs. Also, when your dog is running ahead of you, you aren't keeping an eye on where it goes poop - so that's not picked up either. We have had a woman scream at us about yelling at her unleashed dog coming at my three under control LEASHED dogs. It's made it so that I won't go back to this park to walk my dogs, which is unfair as my three have always been leashed and under control. The ones ruining for me are the unleashed animals and their owners.

We have another area in a neighboring town, again a dirt trail around a large pond, that we have walked. We have met many mountain bikers with their dogs running alongside, these dogs don't so much as look at us, they run by with their owner clearly intent on the run. That doesn't bother me as I am not being assaulted by their dog, nor are my family members or my dogs. And while my dogs would be fine off leash, there's no reason for them to be off leash to enjoy the walk.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Tankstar, even though your dog is under control, that doesn't stop people from seeing you and your dog playing offleash, then decide to let their untrained dog offleash, too. If you can do it, why can't they? There's no way to measure how much someone has trained a dog, and how trustable they really are. Someone who's done have the training but has a big head may think their dog is perfectly trustworthy, only to have it run up to someone and cause trouble


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## tunisianswife (Aug 11, 2009)

I so agree with the on leash comments. this has been an interesting thread to follow, as it is one of my pet peeves. 

Like someone stated and is a very good point: YOU may know that your dog is friendly, won't come near, stays on command but I don't! I am always so alert whenever we go out. my one dog is leary of larger dogs and I have to keep him on a very short leash, lest one approaches us. I go out of my way with my LEASHED dog to avoid any problems; for you and for me.

It's also a case of 'monkey see, monkey do.' The clod that hasn't a clue will also think it is 'okay'.

this past spring, my dogs and I were walking the wooded trails at our city park. Out of nowhere(I didn't even hear or see beforehand), this very friendly dog came running down the hill and very briefly brushed past my dogs. I was so caught off surprise, as was my lhasa. we were walking down these wooden steps placed in the hill and he apparently caught his paw when he turned quickly as this dog brushed past. I saw a couple down below and was yelling to get their dog. they very calmly called it, never so much as looked to see who was calling, and kept on going. every time my dog tried to move he would stop, as he had hurt his paw. Not something serious but all the same, this could have been avoided.


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## Adustgerm (Jul 29, 2009)

We live in town, but we bought up all of the surrounding properties so nobody can build there. and people actually bring their dogs to our property and let them run. We don't mind it. They don't know know we own everything past the hedges.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

If the dog is well trained, and ignores/doesn't approach me or my dog, then I don't mind at all. If I did, I'd be a hypocrit! My dog is rarely leashed, but he stays by my side, and he does not approach anyone, human or canine without permission. He isn't that interested in the first place, as he's very well socialized and allowed to play and interact very often.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> I'm with Zim here. I'm not a square, but *I tend to think laws should be followed, especially when they make sense. Not only is having my dog on a leash when he's supposed to be on a leash a safety issue, it's a courtesy issue.* People should be able to go places where they expect dogs to be leashed and not encounter off-leash dogs. *It doesn't really matter how well behaved a dog might be,* I don't know anything about it until the encounter is over and I don't want to have to wonder as I approach if I'm going to be mauled. Or even jumped/slobbered on. I don't want to have to keep an eye on the illegally off-leash dog in order to ensure it isn't going to crash my picnic or knock my kid over. *Just put the dog on the leash like it's supposed to be and no one has to wonder or worry.*
> 
> *I live in an extremely urban area where leash laws mean the difference between a pet and roadkill.* I grew up with a number of dogs and, as an adult, have had sole responsibility for two. Until I got Alvin, I'd never even heard of a dog park. All my dogs have been perfectly content getting a majority of their outdoor exercise on-leash. I'm not claiming that every dog or every breed would be fulfilled with this type of exercise. I'm also not saying that dogs don't enjoy romping off leash. *But given that it is totally doable to at least minimally exercise a dog while observing leash laws, I feel that there is really no excuse to disregard them.*


I can agree with everything, especially what I put in -bold-.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> *Why are you above the law and not everyone else? We might as well not have any laws.*
> 
> *if someone's dog is offleash legally...I have no problems with it. *
> 
> ...


I see a lot of people who think they're above the law... They see one person wtih a dog off-leash so they decide to try it, and without any previous training to the dog!!

Just because your dog has a 100% recall, if you can believe your dog has that, it's still not right to have the dog off illegally... It's just not... Too many things can happen and those situations and the authorities in those situations will hold _you_[the one with the dog *off-leash*] responsible.


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## Bird-Dog (Dec 24, 2008)

I would agree with the "if they're behaved and don't bother me" statement, _if_ I had actually ever seen a well-behaved, off-leash dog. We have been at the regular park and run into off-leash dogs that don't even know their name and twice I've had owners get mad _at me_ because their dog won't leave me and Hershey alone as we walk by. One dog ran across the street to get to us and then followed us half a block, the other ran under a patio fence and out of the apartment complex to get to us. 

Hershey is a little social butterfly at the DP and DB and perfectly happy playing with dogs 5x her size. But when she's on leash she can feel threatened when an un-leashed dog charges at her.

The most "entertaining" part is these people don't realize that no matter WHAT happens between our dogs - it's their fault. While it's highly unlikely, if Hershey fatally injures the other dog, not my fault...I'm not the one breaking the law.

This is a HUGE pet peeve of mine because most people in my very urban area _don't_ leash their dogs (unleashed dogs in stores, dogs walking 100 feet behind their owner, etc), and without a leash they don't have any poop bags either  and, honestly, I have yet to see any examples of well-trained dogs.

On the flip side, when we're at dog beach and come across the occasional leashed dog I tell Hershey "Leave it" so she doesn't put other dogs in the same situation that she dislikes and I usually get this, "What, isn't your dog friendly?!" look from people...all because I'm trying to be polite!

/soapbox


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Where Im at the law states: All dogs in <city name> are required to be under their owner's control at all times, generally on a leash or confined in a home or yard. 

I have no issues with an off leash dog that behaves as if he/she is leashed. Most mornings I see an Aussie jogging with his/her owner. The dog is never leashed, though I had to really look to be sure of that. I have never seen this dog stop for any reason or attempt to interact with someone other than the owner. 

The dogs that annoy me are those running loose unsupervised and theose that are out of control yet the owners are dumb enough to walk them off leash. During our 20 minute walk last night, Buster and I encountered 3 unleashed dogs. The first was the usual little female (terrier, I think) who's owners dont appear to care she's loose...Ive returned her a few times letting the guy know my concern for her safety (I allow Buster to greet her, she's a sweetheart and Buster LOVES little dogs...she might be 5lbs to his 80ish lbs). Then there was the guy out with his dogs, he walked down one side of the street while the dogs were on the other side. The dogs took off down a side street after some kids  and he stood at the corner yelling their names while they ignored him.

The ones that really tick me off...loose, fearful/aggressive dogs in MY yard barking at MY dog. 10pm I took Buster out into our yard only to encounter yet another loose dog (I think I missed the memo stating yesterday was "let your untrained dog off leash day").


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

> If your off leash dog obeys you, and doesn't come anywhere near my on leash dogs, I don't care. But I HATE people that let their dogs off leash, then their dogs come running up to my on leash dogs.


Yup! All to often those well behaved dogs have rushed my dogs with the owner's yelling behind them, "don't worry, they are friendly" On several occasions my on leash dogs have been chased by those "friendly" small dogs and have received bites. One occasion sticks out in my head of a Westie with an idiot for an owner. The owner kept saying "come her poopsie, that dog will eat you" all the while his Westie was poking holes into my dog with his "friendly" teeth. 
I would never say a word to someone who has their dog off leash and the dog stays VERY clear of my dogs but if the dog even heads in my direction, I would call the ACO immediately.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

If you can keep your dog far from mine, cool.

Gizmo has leash aggression, and has snapped before at other dogs while on the lead. His recall sucks so we only go offleash at the DP, where you'd never even know he had any sort of aggression in his body, since he loves to runrunrun and playplayplay. -shrug.-

But he'll freak out if your offleash dog comes close to him while he is leashed, so I'd say it is safer for you and your dogs to not play offleash where it's not allowed.


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## GatsbysMom (Jul 20, 2009)

A lot of people here have posted about their dogs have leash aggression and I am unfamiliar with this issue. Is it a problem that you work actively to resolve or is it just something one becomes resigned to? Is it acceptable behavior? Just curious because I don't know anything about leash aggression. My dog behaves the same on or off his leash.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

My dog is older and is not a runner. He's the kind of dog that can be walked at heel through even a crowded city street without a leash, and he he appears oblivious to anything, relaxed, calm, and maybe a little bored. This is why I can be so free with him. He's not going to get distracted by screaming kids, a woman calling to him because he's pretty and she wants to pet him, another dog passing by, a cat darting across our path, pigeons landing in front of us, or the smell of the hot dog vendor's cart. All of these things are old news to him. He simply walks by my side. If I stop, he stands around for a time, and if I'm taking a while, he lies down and goes to sleep- even in a crowd so large that people are stepping over him. I have taken him out SO much that in this regard, he behaves much like a professional trained service dog- he's had public access type training. 

So yes, I walk down the street with my dog to get a paper, and he walks beside me leashless. Dogs may pass- he doesn't look or care. I admit to some pride when a passing dog is barking and lunging at the end of its leash like a maniac because it sees my dog, and my leashless dog acts as though he doesn't even see or hear the other dog. We take a hike around the neighborhood lakeside path, and he is leashless, stopping to sniff the odd tree and leave his mark. If there's no one around, I will tell him to stay and walk way ahead and call him- he'll run as fast as he can barely stopping on a dime at my feet, with a big goofy Whippet smile on his face. Still without a leash, we come home and load up the van, then drive to the beach. There's a street festival and a live band at the peir. My leashless dog walks beside me as we browse the tables of hand made trinkets, navigating a reasonable crowd. He rolls around in the sand by my feet as I catch up with the gossip on the island with an old friend. I stop to admire the sunset, and he snoozes beside me on a bench. Then I stroll over to the nearby corner store, and he walks right in beside me and gets a cookie from the store clerk, and I grab some bottled water and we head back towards the quiet street where I parked my car. That's a typical day in our lives.

That's entirely different to me than taking a high energy dog in dire need of some exercise off leash and letting him zoom around willy nilly. it's also different from letting your dog slobber on people, jump, be noisy, or otherwise take away from other peoples' enjoyment of where-ever you may be. 

I also do let him run, but only on isolated beaches, woodland hiking trails, and wide open spaces. 

In addition, I don't think it's too much to ask a dog owner to realize that just because my extremely well trained and socialized dog is walking beside me calmly, that doesn't mean she should let her untrained nut run around and terrorize the park. 

I can't imagine leashing my dog to, say, take him out to pee when I lived in an apartment, or in my current front yard. Or leashing my dog on the way from my van to the dog park entrance. He listens. He doesn't walk more than two feet away from me, and we can even pass another dog in a narrow hallway and he will look away from the dog and walk straight ahead without much, if any, prompting from me (unless it's a dog we know and like, then they may greet). Most dogs I've had have been like this after any length of time in my household, and without all that much effort on my part. Some of it may be the easy going and low energy temperament of most of the dogs I am attracted to, and some of it may be that my dogs are walked, run, and trained constantly, daily, all the time. Being off leash just is NOT exciting to them. 

So, I can appreciate the POV of someone not wanting a dog running up to them, because I totally agree. My leash law states that animals should be under control at all time- and the last time I checked, that included verbal control. They are, however, required to wear a license at all times, and he does when outside of my home.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Anytime someones dog is off leash, it places my wife in danger.

I dont care how well trained one thinks their dog is, how well behaved they think their dog is, or how non-aggressive they think their dog is, anytime it is not under their control (read: "leashed"------ voice recall is unreliable), they are placing my wifes safety at risk.

I stopped counting the number of times that an unleashed "well behaved, non-aggressive, wont bother anyone, he just wants to say hi" dog has come charging, walking, sniffing and even outright attacking my wifes Guide dog as she has gone about minding her own business. My wife has been tripped, bitten and knocked over by dogs that have been off leash (and some that were on those useless "retractable" leashes). Her Guide has been attacked, bitten and distracted to the point of placing my wife in danger by "well behaved, non-aggressive, just wants to be friendly, dont worry he doesnt bite" off leash dogs.

It doesnt matter how well trained one believes their dog to be------leash it. For the safety of the dog, for the safety of others, for the safety of yourself.
If one wants to be off leash anywhere remotely public, go to the dog park. Thats where off lead belongs.


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## DragonNighthowler (Aug 12, 2009)

Well, first I'm new here.

Second, I find this topic interesting, as it is something that affects dog owners a lot.

I personally own two dogs right now, a pomeranian (who lives with my parents), and a greyhound, (who lives with me).

The pomeranian is dominant, and could be dog and human agressive if bothered.

The greyhound is fearful of barking dogs, and capable of ripping off the collar off his thin head, and running off. I've still got to meet the human capable of outrunning a 1 year old greyhound.
Also, he usually gives the wrong signals to other dogs, and ends up getting in trouble.

I personally like to keep my dogs on a leash. I walk them long enough, and excercise them through activities (such as agility for the grey), as to not need to keep them off leash.

I'm also a person who likes to keep her personal space, and so does my pomeranian. There is NO reason why any unknown dog needs to come anywhere close to us.
I'm also tired of hearing the sentence "he's friendly, he doesn't bite", and having to respond every time "my dog DOES bite!"

Or having to throw myself over the greyhound to keep a firm grip of him, and avoid him running off.

I don't know if your dog is friendly, or not. 
I am a friendly person, but that doesn't mean I won't find certain people annoying, and want to beat them up.
Same goes with dogs. I've met very friendly dogs, I personally knew, who wanted to rip my poor greyhound to shreds. 
(when my grey shows interests, he adopts the position of "dominance", even when he's not a dominant dog).

Therefore, laws are to be respected. I want to be able to walk my dogs without having to cope with the daily fight of holding back my animals, while yelling back at the owner of the "friendly dog".

Also, I don't trust people. I'm tired of people saying "I know that much about dogs, they are so well trained..."
Erm... really, I've met boxers that wanted to eat me alive. I've even met golden retrievers so ill mannered they were closer to wild colts, than actually dogs.

I know I might have made some mistakes with my dogs, for example, not properly socializing the pomeranian. 
But that's the reason why I'm conscious of what my pom is, and why I'd never let her off leash, or trust her around other dogs.

But many idiots out there, with their planet sized ego, will believe their stupendous dog is so well mannered, he has the right to let it off leash.

The problem is, like someone said, there is no way to measure how well trainned a dog is, so we can't make specific laws such as "your dog can, yours can't".

For example; Small dogs allowed off leash, but not big dogs?
But my 4 kg pom is dominant, and might be aggressive, she might not be able to hurt a big dog, but she could pretty well kill a small dog.

Or the opposite? 
Ill mannered large dogs can be VERY dangerous (note, I love large dogs, I'm planning on getting a dobermann, or a husky soon enough).

The safest, dogs on leash where they have to be on leash.
Off leash where they are allowed to be off leash. I'll be careful enough to walk my dogs away from the "off leash allowed" areas.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

GatsbysMom said:


> A lot of people here have posted about their dogs have leash aggression and I am unfamiliar with this issue. Is it a problem that you work actively to resolve or is it just something one becomes resigned to? Is it acceptable behavior? Just curious because I don't know anything about leash aggression. My dog behaves the same on or off his leash.


I have worked actively and quite honestly every day to overcome this. With individual dogs there is never a problem, and working with the group as a whole I have to be very careful not to break a single threshold of distance. It's taken *me* a year to get them to walk past other dogs on the same sidewalk, but the other dog(s) must be leashed. I doubt anyone here would call it acceptable behavior, and being setback by at least one assertive friendly dog rushing up to us every week gets annoying. 

Training my dogs to down-stay when a loose dog approaches is difficult but I'm getting there dammit. I've been resigned to being the aggressive one when another dog approaches so they don't get too close and start a fight. People are always going to be out there without a leash. I guess it's something my dogs need to know. So whoever is going to do it regardless, keep doing it.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

The way I see it. Yes I am selfish And I have stated my view in another forum.

I have worked with my girl for 7 years. Her "come" command has never failed, and I am confidant that it wont. I tell her to heel and she stares at me there is no other world when she's on her heel command. Because of all my hard work I have the right to take her off leash in areas where off leashed dogs are allowed, be it in a dog park or walking down the street. If the law says I must leash then I will. but my city has a "Dogs must be ether leashed OR under vocal control" law. I WIll take full advantage of that law.

My personal experiance has been that vocal commands and leashes have the same strength when used properly.

It is one of my goals to awe people with an extremely well trained dog, to help people change their mind of how a dog can behave.

%90 of people I talk to with off leash dogs have never seriously trained their dog, they just "Think" their dog wll be good.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Foyerhawk said:


> In addition, I don't think it's too much to ask a dog owner to realize that just because my extremely well trained and socialized dog is walking beside me calmly, that doesn't mean she should let her untrained nut run around and terrorize the park.


You are allowed to break the law, but someone who witnesses you break it is not? This is illogical.

And we again return to the point of common courtesy. YOU know that your dog is well behaved, but the people you pass on the street do not. The simple fact that a strange dog is off leash where it shouldn't can be enough to ruin some people's enjoyment of their surroundings, because they now have to pay attention to what your dog is or isn't doing instead of simply relaxing and enjoying themselves. I would most likely go out of my way to avoid you as soon as I saw your dog was not on a leash because I have no idea how it might respond to me and my own well-behaved, on-leash dog. I should not feel the need to change my walking route or my plans because you won't follow the law. If your dog is in the habit of walking calmly within two feet of you anyway, then how would it change the nature of the walk to clip a leash to the dog's collar? Will it not still be walking calmly within two feet of you?

I have yet to hear a good reason for a dog being off-leash in an on-leash area.

I had another thought this morning, as I was walking Alvin through the park on his leash: I don't trust dogs. They are animals and our control over them is tenuous, no matter how well trained we believe them to be. Even humans make mistakes...how could we expect our canine friends, who are so much more driven by instinct, to avoid screwing up once in a while? I was thinking all this because we passed several other on leash dogs over the course of the walk. Alvin ignored four of the five because 1) his personality is such that he is naturally indifferent to them and 2) that's what I ask him to do while we walk. Then the fifth came by and he was on hyper-alert. The fifth dog wasn't _doing _anything and Alvin didn't bark or lunge or growl or leave his heel position...but he couldn't tear his eyes away. It seemed completely arbitrary to me. I would have no way to predict that sort of reaction from him. So what happens if, after ten years of impeccable off-leash behavior, a dog has a momentary lapse and runs into the street after a cat or squirrel? Or attacks another dog? Or small child? Or just plain runs off? I'm not willing to stake the well-being of my dog and my neighbors on him remembering every moment of every day exactly how he should behave off leash.

ETA: I just discovered something interesting. My city's leash law actually states that "All dogs must be restrained by a leash not exceeding six feet." Who knew a Flexi-lead was illegal?!?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Personally I don't care. If you have control over your dog - via leash or otherwise, it doesn't matter to me. 

And I think leashes are given too much credit for "controlling" dogs considering larger/stronger dogs have pulled their way to us - so a leash doesn't always prevent a dog from approaching another if the handler truly has no control.

I still remember that boxer female we ran into a while back. Friendly as can be (though her tail wag is deadly - that thing was a like a whip!), used calming signals and when I turned away, she pulled her owner over to me so she could sniff me to death.

Leashed and all. 

Leashes are NOT subs for owner control - though some people think they are. I'd rather have owner control over their dog(s) rather than them leashed and pulling their way over anyway.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> ETA: I just discovered something interesting. My city's leash law actually states that "All dogs must be restrained by a leash not exceeding six feet." Who knew a Flexi-lead was illegal?!?


That's actually the leash law in a surprising number of places. It often does specify 6 feet maximum. Only no one seems to realize it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> If your dog is in the habit of walking calmly within two feet of you anyway, then how would it change the nature of the walk to clip a leash to the dog's collar? Will it not still be walking calmly within two feet of you?


Actually, in Wally's case, no.

When he first arrived, a leash scared the crap out of him. He seemed to be trained to walk off-leash near his people (which he did beautifully, even though he wasn't too sure about me), but when I put the leash on, he acted like a totally different dog. 

In fact, he got out of the collar he was in (I promptly got him a new one) because he didn't want to be on leash. He didn't run away, though, he just looked at me like "I don't need that thing, let's just walk side-by-side"

So NOW, there's no difference between the two - but that didn't just happen automatically.



MafiaPrincess said:


> That's actually the leash law in a surprising number of places. It often does specify 6 feet maximum. Only no one seems to realize it.


How do these areas expect you to train stay/wait/recall over longer distances and generalize it to all locations?

I guess the laws don't care about that.

Unless you are lucky enough to have a place where dogs can do such things from longer than 6 feet. I don't 

So I technically broke the law training my dog to recall - good thing Zim didn't see me. I'd be the first owner going to jail for teaching his dog how to come using positive training


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> Personally I don't care. If you have control over your dog - via leash or otherwise, it doesn't matter to me.
> 
> And I think leashes are given too much credit for "controlling" dogs considering larger/stronger dogs have pulled their way to us - so a leash doesn't always prevent a dog from approaching another if the handler truly has no control.
> 
> ...


I totally agree! I have had an OES pull his way to us while still on a lead that his owner was holding. I don't understand how people think that's okay.



> A lot of people here have posted about their dogs have leash aggression and I am unfamiliar with this issue. Is it a problem that you work actively to resolve or is it just something one becomes resigned to? Is it acceptable behavior? Just curious because I don't know anything about leash aggression. My dog behaves the same on or off his leash.


My dog is not leash aggressive but she's reactive. Leash or not doesn't matter. It's something that I do work on actively but I'm resigned to the fact that she's never going to be a dog park dog. She's never going to immediately accept a strange dog. I don't know that I can expect that of her either. She behaves in a perfectly normal manner in every other situation. Just because she doesn't like rude dogs who don't read her 'go away' signals she sends them, doesn't mean she needs to be fixed. I do my best to keep her out of situations like that by keeping her leashed and avoiding areas like the dog park.


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> key word there Tankstar is
> 
> >illegally<
> 
> ...


I agree 10000000000000000000%. I agree with most of the things said here about off leash dogs, but I think one of the things that bothers me most is that people seem to think that the law applies to everyone else BUT them.

The leash laws are in place for the safety of other animals and humans alike. Even if the dogs are well behaved, I would still be annoyed.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> key word there Tankstar is
> 
> >illegally<
> 
> ...





deege39 said:


> I can agree with everything, especially what I put in -bold-.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never said Im above the law. But to excersise my dog well, I like him to be offleash so he can run, we have 100's of acres of wood and fields all around my house, so yes darn right Im going to go up there and play offleash with my dog. No one is around, and if I happen upon some one with my dog beside me a quick "stop" and blaze stops dead in his tracks and I put the leash on until no one is around again. Simple. I run across more agressive dogs on leash, on flexis trying to attack me and my dog (had a black lab on a flexi with a halti try and bite my leg the other day while riding with blaze, and yes he was leashed to my bike then)

If peple have well trained dogs, then why not let them off the leash in deserted areas? no ones around, so who cares. 

Some laws IMO are just a littler to far. legally around here yo are not allowed more then a 6 foot leash. so he either stays on that, and doesnt get free dom


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Tankstar said:


> Never said Im above the law. But to excersise my dog well, I like him to be offleash so he can run, we have 100's of acres of wood and fields all around my house, so yes darn right Im going to go up there and play offleash with my dog. No one is around, and if I happen upon some one with my dog beside me a quick "stop" and blaze stops dead in his tracks and I put the leash on until no one is around again. Simple.


I'm not really accusing you of anything, because personally- I don't care, and not in a mean way, but a logical way.  We don't live in the same neck of the woods, so really it's none of my business, but I so envy you for having a dog that's as well trained as Blaze. Kudos to you. 



> If peple have well trained dogs, then why not let them off the leash in deserted areas? no ones around, so who cares.


In areas, in the country, where there are woods and fields, I can _understand_ and fathom that a little better then some of the yay-hoots I see here in the Metro-Atlanta area with Pit-Bulls and Mastiffs running around next to a four-lane highway in an apartment complex with spiteful children... 

I just think the leash laws should be followed by everyone, especially those that don't/can't/won't train their dogs...



> Some laws IMO are just a littler to far. legally around here yo are not allowed more then a 6 foot leash. so he either stays on that, and doesnt get free dom


I agree about many laws being ridiculous, especially the 6ft leash law... Donatello has a five foot leash, a six foot leash, a 15ft leash, and then a 16ft flexi-lead. I use the flexi-lead the most, because he can get run and romp, trot and walk faster than I can keep up, so I dare some offical to tell me to put him on something different! 

FYI: When I see other people or kids walking, with or without dogs, I stop Donatello, reel him in, and lock it as far back as it will go so that he's walking _right_ next to my legs... I'm a big stickler on people using those leashes and just letting them rush whoever is up ahead... That has never happened under my watch and never will.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Yes.
I do not enjoy other dogs coming up to greet my dogs. I've never been in a circumstance when someone was able to call back their dogs away from mine. It's extremely annoying. So I assume that any off leash dog in an area that does not allow off leash dogs, could cause a problem.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Having worked with service dogs and their trainers and handlers, I 100% agree with you Smith... I would NEVER allow my dog to go near a service dog, and I never have. 

I am not breaking the law in my area- dogs under verbal control are legal.

My dog would never go up to your dog without my permission, and I would never give that permission without YOUR permission. I'm a bit of a loner, and we walk the other way when we see another dog- especially off leash. I always assume the other dog is disobedient until proven otherwise. Perhaps you'd have to actual meet my dog to grasp why he is not a threat. A common comment I get is, "OH! I didn't even realize there was a dog here!" 

*shrugs* I agree that untrained dogs don't belong off leash, and that dogs approaching other dogs are a nuisance and a problem. I can't believe the disrespect some people show for others. I've had many dogs I would never take off the leash at a beach or park that wasn't a dedicated dog area or a wilderness area. My current dog is just not like that, and we will continue to be respectful and polite and enjoy our life on the beach


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> How do these areas expect you to train stay/wait/recall over longer distances and generalize it to all locations?


I don't know about other places but here it is VERY rare that someone will ask you to leave if you're doing training on a long leash.

Technically it's the 6ft law here too in most places.. however, in the field across from my house my dog is almost always on her 20ft. The park rangers see us and don't make a peep.

I guess you could refute and say "so it's okay to break the length law but not the off-leash law?" But hey, I have a strange feeling that a dog being actively worked with on a 20 ft leash in a park or field is going to be much less likely to cause problems than a dog on no leash at all.

That said, I'm bowing out of this thread now because it goes sour every time the leash/no leash thing is brought up.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

I completely agree with the people who said that dogs should never be off-leash illegally, for all the reasons that have been mentioned.

I just wanted to add something to the discussion: if your dog is off-leash illegally and s/he is injured or killed by another dog, you won't be able to do anything. Even if you believe your dog was under control and it was entirely the other dog's fault. Because you were breaking the law, you won't have any legal recourse.

And for the "oh my dog's perfect" people, yeah right. Your dog is a dog, not a robot.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

If you want your dog excercised off-leash, take it to a designated off-leash dog park. There are reasons that people are there excercising on leash, and that should be respected. Not only that, but there are probably non-dog people there as well who should be respected and not approached by off-leash dogs.

If your DP has no small dog part (all of ours do, and it may be something you should bring up to your town, but I never had this problem with Gizmo, he handles himself perfectly with big dogs and small dogs alike off-leash, it is Roxy who I worry about since she is so tiny.), then try going to the DP when it isn't busy. Plan an early morning meet-up, and hit the park around 6am.. Around here, no one is at the DP until 11 or so. When the bigger dogs start to come, leash your dogs and take them to your on-leash place for a nice jog with your friends. And there you go, lots of excercise, including safe off-leash excercise as well. I am always frustrated by off-leash dogs not in designated areas..since so many are not in 'perfect' control. My mother's 8 year old Pug never needs a leash, yet we still leash her when not in our own yard, or a DP..not everyone loves dogs.

And a good example of why your dogs should always be leashed, is what just happened to my poor Gizmo, on leash in his own yard, and attacked by our neighbor's loose pitbull in front of children.

As far as leash aggression goes, it is something that I work on with Gizmo every day. He's come a very long way, and is not always aggressive, but set off by certain other dogs at times. He gets very excited, very vocal..and has snipped at other dogs who reacted the same way, even after I've asked other owners to please not come near, they think he is a cute little guy and want to. -sigh-.. it is an ongoing process that I am not willing to give up on him for.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> If you want your dog excercised off-leash, take it to a designated off-leash dog park.


There are no dog parks in my area.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Also, I don't EXERCISE my dog off leash in town. I WALK my dog off leash in town, with him by my side. There is a difference there, too.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> So I assume that any off leash dog in an area that does not allow off leash dogs, could cause a problem.


I suddenly realized that this might be a large part of my problem with off-leash dogs. Because my city has a strict (and fairly strictly enforced) leash law, I assume an owner who refuses to follow it is a potentially more of a problem than someone who does. If a person irresponsibly flaunts an easy to follow rule, I find it difficult to trust that they have been responsible enough to impeccably train their dog.

I don't claim that leashes are a magical fix for misbehaving dogs. But a dog off a leash is much more likely to be out of control than a dog on because...well...there's nothing to control it.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Actually, in Wally's case, no.
> 
> When he first arrived, a leash scared the crap out of him. He seemed to be trained to walk off-leash near his people (which he did beautifully, even though he wasn't too sure about me), but when I put the leash on, he acted like a totally different dog.
> 
> ...


if you want to teach recall go to a fully fenced in area or where offleash dogs are allowed. 


-------------------------------

as far as "voice control" it isn't 100% reliable. period. I don't give a carp what anyone says. and everyone I see who supposedly has "voice control" doesn't use it. their dogs are wandering around in my yard and taking craps in it;meandering along 15 feet behind their owners, going up to the neighbor dogs behind fences etc etc. 

and if you can't handle a dog on a leash..YOU in particular shouldn't be walking that dog. thankfully around here there is a law that deals with THAT too. 

if you are letting your dog offleash where its illegal...then you are behaving as if you are above the law. If one exception to the law can be made...it may as well not be a law. you don't have to like the law..you can even petition to have it changed... but until then..if someone breaks the leash law and I see it...im reporting it. period. even if you are my best friend standing right next to me(which I've done...and I even let her borrow money to pay the fine.)

so what if that's harsh...im protecting myself and my dog.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Are you positive? I only ask as DPs are a growing trend. There's a site..actually... www.dog-friendly.com that lists dog parks by state.

If none are available to you, there are usually options.. the OP said they use a fenced in tennis-court when it's empty.. I've used my kid-sister's fenced in school playground before, during the summer when it's empty..(killed 2 birds with 1 stone there, the sister got excercised and so did Gizmo!)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> I don't claim that leashes are a magical fix for misbehaving dogs. But a dog off a leash is much more likely to be out of control than a dog on because...well...there's nothing to control it.


And of the owner on the other end of that leash isn't in control - there's still nothing controlling the dog.

Like with the boxer that pulled her owner to me.

Dogs are out of control because their owners/handlers allow it, imo, leashed or otherwise.

I mean, if people here with reactive dogs, etc can keep their dogs under control - that tells me its not the leash. It's the handler.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Foyerhawk said:


> Also, I don't EXERCISE my dog off leash in town. I WALK my dog off leash in town, with him by my side. There is a difference there, too.


Which again leads me to ask, why? If he's by your side anyway, why not clip a leash on? I see that leashes are not required where you live, so my question does not come from a place of trying to trick or trap you. I'm just wondering as to the purpose of this exercise. What does the dog gain from being off leash in this scenario?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> Are you positive? I only ask as DPs are a growing trend. There's a site..actually... www.dog-friendly.com that lists dog parks by state.
> 
> If none are available to you, there are usually options.. the OP said they use a fenced in tennis-court when it's empty.. I've used my kid-sister's fenced in school playground before, during the summer when it's empty..(killed 2 birds with 1 stone there, the sister got excercised and so did Gizmo!)


Nope.

The county is supposedly "considering one" but it hasn't happened (and that was in 2003).


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

KB, the gorillas at the zoo can jump over those ditches between them and the fence, too. I'm still glad the ditches are there.

Again, I don't claim that a leash is a cure-all for a misbehaving dog. But I would rather have the leash as a line of defense against a strange dog than not have it at all.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Um, yeah, letting a dog that is such a nut you can't walk it ON a leash run OFF a leash is obviously stupid! lol

I also would never let my dog wander around (anywhere) and crap in peoples' lawns, etc. How rude. I hate it when people let their dogs crap in our yard!

There are dog parks here, but they are full of untrained, aggressive dogs. I don't often take my gentle, elderly dog there where he will be body slammed and chewed on by even friendly dogs, since he despises being treated that way. 

No point in carrying this arguement further, since for the most part I actually agree at least on a level with all of you, and until you've met the particular dog I am talking about, you can't know that he doesn't fit any of the stereotypes listed here. As mentioned I've had MANY dogs that I would NOT let off leash, and I still am not offended by an obedient dog heeling off leash or playing ball politely with his owner.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> if you want to teach recall go to a fully fenced in area or where offleash dogs are allowed.


Aren't fenced areas still required to have leashes of X length?

Unless I own it, I guess, and I don't. Like the tennis court example.

Yeah, I could train in my yard, but that's not exactly going to generalize the behavior.

I guess I better carry a tape measure with me. I don't want to get in trouble with having a 6 ft and 1 cm long leash!



Foyerhawk said:


> I also would never let my dog wander around (anywhere) and crap in peoples' lawns, etc. How rude. I hate it when people let their dogs crap in our yard!


What's funny is that the dogs that do that around here are on leashes!

Goes back to the owner, imo.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

By the way everyone, something quite terrifying happened yesterday while all our dogs were on leash. 2 dogs one named Zeze (toy poodle about 5-6 lbs) and one named Denny (shih tzu/mini poodle mix 23 lbs) go tangled together while both were on flexi leads.

First, a aggressive, excited dog approached out dogs on leash with the owners and our dogs started to get riled up too because the other dog was trying to claw its way towards us while being pulled away by the owners. 

While our dogs were excited, Zeze somehow got tangled around Denny's lead. Zeze's lead was on his collar by the way while Denny's was on his harness. Basically as Zeze struggled, he became stuck on Denny's back while he was choking badly so he started to snarl and struggle and bite. Denny became very scared of the thing snarling and biting him on the back, so he thought he was in danger and he reacted by snarling and trying to get Zeze off him. Both started to bite and the leash got more and more tangled while Zeze was choking to death. Since both had big flexi leads, it was very hard to get it around and through the lead/string to get untangled. They couldn't drop the flexi either because it would automatically redraw and snap the dogs very hard on the back/butt. This went on for 30 sec - 60 sec while all the other dogs started barking and snarling trying to help either Zeze or Denny. In the end, we managed to get Zeze's collar off.

I thought I would just warn everyone the dangers of flexi leads. I'm not going to use one from now on around other dogs. And I definitely will NEVER put it on Nia's collar anymore, only on her harness.

In the end, both dogs got away with no injuries. The bites didn't go through the skin since they were in such tangled and awkward positions. But I think now Denny and Zeze don't get along anymore because even after they were untangled Zeze's housemate was snarling at Denny and Denny was growling back.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Case in point:

About 30 minutes ago, we went to the bank. Nice safe place, right?
I get out of the van, my wife gets out with her Guide, and we walk across the parking lot and in the front door. We conduct our business and leave. As we walk past a truck on the way back to our vehicle, out of an open window jumps this very large Yellow Lab, which then charges my wifes Guide. The owner is standing next to the truck screaming frantically, "Jake, Jake, come here, come here!" to no avail.
Now, I have no idea what the dog's intentions are: play, protect, curiosity, dominate, whatever, I dont care. All I know is now my wife's safety is compromised. She tried to move aside, and got bumped into by "Jake", almost knocking her over. I stepped in to intervene. All it took this time was one well planted boot in the ribs before "Jake" disengaged; I have used pepper spray and even a stun prod on errant dogs in the past. The goober was able to recover enough to stop screaming at his mutt and come grab it, while shooting me nasty looks; once again, I dont care. I make no excuses and offer no explanations for the safety of my wife and her Guide. We get back to our vehicle and hastily exit the parking lot. We called Animal Control from around the corner, but of course the goober and his mutt are now gone; all I could do was give a decription of the vehicle they were in (no plates on it-----of course) and of the dog. Sadly, this is an all too common occurrance. I call it a "hit-and-run sniper attack" because it happens so fast, and the perpetrator always manages to disappear in the confusion.

Do any of you know how terrifying it is for a blind person who uses a Guide for independent travel to hear an impending attack on or interference with their Guide from an unleashed/uncontrolled dog, and not knowing where to go for safety or how to get away?

I know that for the most part I am preaching to the choir, but the idea that one can have their dog safely off leash in a public venue is misleading. All dogs, even service dogs, are at times unpredictable, and must be under physical restraint when in public. If you love them, train them *and* leash them.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

No empty playgrounds, tennis courts, etc either, KB? Another thing I've noticed are alot of Doggie Day-Cares have play date groups in their fenced back-yards, we've been to a few of those as well..Might be something to look into..

I drive almost a half an hour, either every day or every other day to exercise my dogs off-leash..because I do feel that they need a sense of freedom...but while they have that sense of freedom, I have a sense of security knowing that there is still a boundary protecting them from non-dog lovers, cars, and dogs who don't do well off-leash.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Regarding training, I could not train my dog at the dog park unless I illegally went there after hours, because one cannot bring food of any kind into any dog park in my county (and I train with a clicker!).


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I mean, if people here with reactive dogs, etc can keep their dogs under control - that tells me its not the leash. It's the handler.


no..its a combination of leash plus handler. Bolo's threshold is currently about a four foot radius around her in any direction. outside of that radius I can control her with my voice. if a dog crossed that threshold, she is on them in a split second. the leash allows me to stop her, midlunge from tearing the hapless trespassor's throat out.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I was just over at the "If you can't afford S/N, should you have a dog?" thread, which could be rephrased to be relevant here.

If you live in such a place where you cannot exercise or train your dog legally, should you have a dog?

If a person believes that the only way to properly exercise a dog is off leash, but said person lives in a town with a leash law, does not have a yard, and does not have access to a dog park, is this person in a good situation to have a dog?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> No empty playgrounds, tennis courts, etc either, KB? Another thing I've noticed are alot of Doggie Day-Cares have play date groups in their fenced back-yards, we've been to a few of those as well..Might be something to look into..


There's those places, but technically by law, the dog has to be on-leash (it's still a public area not on my property). 

Though I do use empty playgrounds/safe, wide-open fields to work in, it is still technically illegal (unless I'm misunderstanding the local laws). I've seen others do it as well without incident - like a German Shepard just laying, gnawing on his toy while his family plays in the field.

I wish there was some doggy day-cares - I probably would look into it not only for play/exercise, but it would help with socializing him to dogs as well.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Aren't fenced areas still required to have leashes of X length?
> 
> Unless I own it, I guess, and I don't. Like the tennis court example.
> 
> ...



That's why you ask. the tennis courts I use are part of an apartment complex. I went to the offices and explained my situation and as long as I a. pick up the poo and b. leave if any of the residents show up wishing to use the courts...I have their complete permission to let Bolo play there.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I actually do believe that all dogs should be run HARD off leash every single day, but I would not claim someone who lacks the health, ability, or finances to do so should not have a dog. When I have not had a local place to do so, I have driven to a suitable location, but I always was able to fund that, because it was/is a priority to me. I also don't think a yard is enough, unless you have honest to god LAND for the dog to really run, leap, explore, and walk far. But, just because *I* think that doesn't mean I make the rules. Plenty of good dog owners give their dogs plenty of exercise on a leash. I have my ideals, but I try not to push them on others. If your dog is fit, muscular, and not hyper or overweight, I will assume you're doing just fine.

A yard (which I do have) is pointless with my dog. I have to actually walk or run *with* my lazy dog or he'll just stand around... I'm the goofy lady saying, "Come on! Come on! Yay!!!! RUN! WOOHOO, go boy, go!!!" while my dog stands around looking like a statue, glaring down his needle nose at me. Eventually, though, I tap his silly side, and get him to play! He really prefers woodlands hikes for serious exercise, which requires a lot of driving and creativity on my part.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Foyerhawk said:


> I actually do believe that all dogs should be run HARD off leash every single day, but I would not claim someone who lacks the health, ability, or finances to do so should not have a dog. When I have not had a local place to do so, I have driven to a suitable location, but I always was able to fund that, because it was/is a priority to me. I also don't think a yard is enough, unless you have honest to god LAND for the dog to really run, leap, explore, and walk far. But, just because *I* think that doesn't mean I make the rules. Plenty of good dog owners give their dogs plenty of exercise on a leash. I have my ideals, but I try not to push them on others. If your dog is fit, muscular, and not hyper or overweight, I will assume you're doing just fine.
> 
> A yard (which I do have) is pointless with my dog. I have to actually walk or run *with* my lazy dog or he'll just stand around... I'm the goofy lady saying, "Come on! Come on! Yay!!!! RUN! WOOHOO, go boy, go!!!" while my dog stands around looking like a statue, glaring down his needle nose at me. Eventually, though, I tap his silly side, and get him to play! He really prefers woodlands hikes for serious exercise, which requires a lot of driving and creativity on my part.


what's the difference between a hard offleash run and a hard on leash run?

I slap on some skates, fit Bolo with a harness and we go at a dead run for seven miles give or take with her doing ALL of the physical work. Im just there to provide weight for her to pull and supervision to keep her under control. 

offleash? she kills things. bugs, squirrels, and if a dog happens to pass by the fence she makes quite the racket launching herself full force like a rocket and smacking hard into the fence. it sets training back lightyears...in the tennis courts she is leashed on a long line as a result. off leash is TERRIBLE for this dog...and I would bet money she is not the only one.


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## DragonNighthowler (Aug 12, 2009)

People should get a dog suited to their needs.

Many people get the "cute", or "popular" breed because it's just that, popular. And don't bother checking the needs for this dogs.

It so happens, popular breeds are not always the easiest to handle. Dalmatians, for example, became very popular in the 2000, due to the movie (was it in 2001?). The thing is many people found out these dogs were highly energetic, and if bored, they became rather destructive.
The consequence, many dalmatians ended up in shelters. 

Same goes for labradors, and golden retrievers. These are one of America's most popular, yet they are very energetic.

People should get informed of the dogs needs. I, for instance, couldn't own a retriever of any sort, because I normally don't have a place where it could go swimming.

But I could cope with a dalmatian tho, because I love going to the country with the horse, and dalmatian dogs fare fantastically with horses. 

What I mean is, dogs needing to be excercised off leash, is not a valid excuse, to me. 
When people get a dog, they don't only get a pet. This "pet" has its needs.

People not willing to do sports, or next to areas where it is legal to let the dogs off leash, shouldn't get highly energetic dogs.
If they do, then they should assume the consequences of their options, and not force the rest of us their mistake, because their dog has to exercise off leash.

I really don't mind people letting their dogs off leash as long as they are well mannered. 
The problem is that your dog might be well mannered, but 90% of people don't have a clue of how to train a dog, have a disobedient dog (friendly or not, I don't care, my dog is fearful and the other is aggressive), who will not listen to the owner. 
These people as well say their dog is "so pweety, and perfect"!

If you let your dog off leash where it is illegal, these people will want to do so as well.

Like I already stated, I don't mind if people go to the countryside and let their dogs off leash. I'll avoid those places.

But I love going for walks, LONG walks, and I like to do so calmly, chatting with my boyfriend, and peacefully walking with my dogs.

Mr Smith, I'm so sorry you have to go through those problems, because of such irrespectful people. I live close to a guide dog training facility, and we have these dogs around much.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> what's the difference between a hard offleash run and a hard on leash run?


For my dog, the difference is inactivity. Left to his own devices, Alvin would most prefer to stand and sniff every single blade of grass in a two foot square area. I posted a thread a gazillion years ago demonstrating what Alvin does when off leash in an enormous (but still enclosed) space. He does not run, he does not leap, he does not even leave the entrance area unless I walk away from it with him.










Yes, that's right...he saunters around the perimeter of the fence and pees on it. If, on the other hand, I jog, then he will jog with me. I guess I could jog him off leash at the dog park, but it seems silly to load up the dog and drive to the park when I could jog in my own neighborhood. Since I live in a place with a leash law, I put him on a leash when we go for a jog. 

In what way would jogging off a leash be better than on?


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

For a dog like Alvin, a leash walk is clearly better, then!  My dog is a bit similar in that, often times, as I said above, he doesn't run unless I run or walk with him.

It's pretty obvious Bolo clearly gets a lot of good, quality exercise which suits her breed and her needs. Nothing wrong with that.

Sighthounds need to run flat out, top speed (way faster than any human!) on natural ground to maintain health and fitness (many of them can be calm house dogs without routine exercise, but I don't believe they can be truly fit or healthy without it). This means driving the dog to a beach or field, or owning land. JMO 

Whatever works for you and your dog is what matters- obviously your ways work for you (all) and my way works for me.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Foyerhawk, you've been repeatedly asked what benefit you derive from not just putting a leash on your dog, but you've avoided answering.

Seriously, why is it so important that you not put a leash on your dog? If he's just walking/running next to you, without wandering, why not put a leash on?


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

And sometimes I do. My entire point was that I don't do it a lot, because I don't need to with this particular animal. Why is it so important either way? The whole original point was that no, I don't get bothered when I see another dog off leash that behaves as well as mine does (and I see lots of them, actually), and leaves us alone. I stand by that


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I actually do let Summer offleash a lot so I'm kind of a middle ground person. Here it's legal to have them off leash as long as they're under voice control. Summer's recall is great and she has never once approached someone or a dog uninvited (actually I dont remember seeing anyone really). So I have no problems letting her offleash here. I take her to my friend's pasture (60 acres unfenced) and let her roam with me. I'll take her a few other places like that (family properties and such).

When we're at school we live in an apartment and we walk campus often. There's people everywhere. I'm 99.9% sure she would just walk in a heel next to me regardless but it's not legal to do so and it's safer with her on a leash. I don't know how much she gets from being off leash anyways, she won't run and play by herself, she just stays with me. The only way you get her involved in an activity is by doing it too. So she's virtually never off leash at the apartment but I don't think she minds. She gets much more out of training sessions and agility class (where she is off leash in a fenced area) than just being set to run. Unless I run around all the acreage with her she won't move. She DOES enjoy practicing stays and then charging full blast at me. And also a lot of people would say a dog needs socialization with other dogs to be 'fulfilled'. Summer would honestly rather not. Of course she now gets to play with the other dogs, but she spent a year as an only dog just fine. There is no set way to exercise a dog, a lot depends on the dog. Having a hyperactive, non-dog friendly, and not very playful dog like Summer has made me much more creative about exercising her properly. I can't just throw a ball and tell her to get it and I can't just let her loose in a yard either. 

My yard is actually not fenced either and they're offleash every time they're outside.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I believe I originally asked the question and I asked it out of simple curiosity. You seem very adamant about your dog being off leash, but you haven't mentioned any activity that the dog couldn't do on leash, so I wondered what you saw as the benefit of the dog being off leash. As I understand you, there isn't one. Your dog is well-behaved off a leash and your city does not have a leash law, so you see no reason to use one.

I would like to note that the original post was not simply about being bothered by off leash dogs. It was about being bothered by off leash dogs in an area where dogs are supposed to be on leashes. The OP asked for feedback on a situation where s/he had his/her dog off leash in a public area when s/he knew it was illegal to do so.


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## GatsbysMom (Jul 20, 2009)

harrise said:


> I have worked actively and quite honestly every day to overcome this. With individual dogs there is never a problem, and working with the group as a whole I have to be very careful not to break a single threshold of distance. It's taken *me* a year to get them to walk past other dogs on the same sidewalk, but the other dog(s) must be leashed. I doubt anyone here would call it acceptable behavior, and being setback by at least one assertive friendly dog rushing up to us every week gets annoying.
> .


Thanks for the response, *harrise*, I understand what a setback it can be in training for other loose dogs to run up to yours, who has leash aggression. It's like everyone trying to pet your dog when you're trying to get him to go potty... *sigh*


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

If the dog is bothering me, yes then I'm bothered. 

If the dog is not bothering me, then I'm not bothered. 

If the dog is trespassing on my property then I'm very bothered.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Well, fair enough. 

I guess I don't care even if it is in an area with a leash law, as long as the dog isn't bothering me. Not given it much thought, though, as I haven't ever lived, to my knowledge, somewhere with a very strict leash law.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> That's why you ask. the tennis courts I use are part of an apartment complex. I went to the offices and explained my situation and as long as I a. pick up the poo and b. leave if any of the residents show up wishing to use the courts...I have their complete permission to let Bolo play there.


Same with me. The tennis players and instructors that co-own the courts told us that it was fine as long as we clean up and leave when someone needs to use the courts. We typically use them after 9 pm and we haven't met any tennis players yet because this court is outdoors and doesn't have lights.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I didn't read the whole thing sorry, only your first post, but in my opinion if it doesn't say "dogs are allowed off leash" then you should keep them on a leash as you're breaking the law. 

As far as that guy goes you can tell him his dog was off leash too and almost harmed one of your dogs and your mother and maybe tell him you'll go to the police if he doesn't stop yelling, etc to you. 

Personally I don't like it when people let their dogs off leash when they're not supposed to. I don't care if the dog is small or large, friendly or not, they're not allowed. This law is in effect for a reason to keep people and animals safe.

Now if it was a dog park that allowed it, sure let the dog off leash to roam and have fun. But otherwise it's wrong and I feel people know this and just choose to ignore it, if I seem bitter I'm sorry. Many people in our area just let their dogs roam and I don't care how obedient they are it's just wrong plain and simple!


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> what's the difference between a hard offleash run and a hard on leash run?.


I can never run my dog hard on leash because I cannot run as fast or as long as her. That's my biggest problem. When I let her off leash she will run for 2 hours straight at very high speeds that I cannot match and I don't even have a sight hound. So I can imagine some owners of very fast dogs say their dogs are not exercised enough. 

I ran with my dog Nia for 1 hr yesterday and walked for another hour yet she still did not get enough exercise because 1st she wasn't hungry when she got home. She's a terrible eater and won't eat (only a few bites) unless she's had a very good hard exercise routine. Second, when she got home she was still very hyper and running all over the house. In the end she only ate like 10 kibble the whole day yesterday and I had to play with her for another hr with balls, chase, tug of war before she calmed down enough to go to bed. Usually I can achieve the same level of exercise with a few dogs off leash in about an hr because of them running so fast. That is why I prefer to be able to let dogs off leash for exercise. 

I've tried rollerblading with her and biking with her but I've found it rather dangerous, especially biking. She will sometimes stop dead in her tracks while running and once I was biking, I yanked her off her feet and dragged her for a few meters. It was really terrible and I've stopped doing that.

For this winter, I will try to get a treadmill so she can run as fast as she wants on it. This way she can get a good run without me worrying about speed, stopping, etc. Also she can run everyday even when it rains heavily like it does here. It rains for 3 months almost every day with maybe 7 or 8 sunny days in 3 months.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Wow this thread is going strong.

Ive seen alot of debating here weather dogs should be allowed off the leash at all,i think they should.
I said earlier that i wouldnt want an offleash dog running up to mine but offleash dogs that are trained and listen to their owners are fine with me,after all what life would it be for a dog to never have some freedom.

Every day i walk my dogs i see the same people,some in groups with their dogs or some solo,their dogs never run up to mine and i like to see dogs running around and having fun.
The problems i have are normally people who i dont see frequently or ever,idiots who are talking on the phone whist their dog is making its way towards mine,more often than not the owner looks up and spots my crew and grabs his/her dog quick sometimes though i bump into what i call *status symbol boys*,these are the fools with a bully breed for no other reason than to look the part,these idiots like to size up situations and occasionally not put their dog/s on a lead,now these are the people who i WILL NOT tolerate on my walks,im not going to hold back 2 SBT and a 156lbs of mastiff because your an asshole and if my dogs HAVE to fight because of ignorance then you can bet your life im headbutting someone after (providing said owner/asshole is not a woman that is) my walks are to be stress free so if your dog is offleash just have it under control and all is good.

Oh and i take my dogs to the football pitch for offleash runs,there are no leash laws here and i feel for anybody who lives where you have to have your dog on a 6ft lead 24/7.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I can never run my dog hard on leash because I cannot run as fast or as long as her. That's my biggest problem. When I let her off leash she will run for 2 hours straight at very high speeds that I cannot match and I don't even have a sight hound. So I can imagine some owners of very fast dogs say their dogs are not exercised enough.
> 
> I ran with my dog Nia for 1 hr yesterday and walked for another hour yet she still did not get enough exercise because 1st she wasn't hungry when she got home. She's a terrible eater and won't eat (only a few bites) unless she's had a very good hard exercise routine. Second, when she got home she was still very hyper and running all over the house. In the end she only ate like 10 kibble the whole day yesterday and I had to play with her for another hr with balls, chase, tug of war before she calmed down enough to go to bed. Usually I can achieve the same level of exercise with a few dogs off leash in about an hr because of them running so fast. That is why I prefer to be able to let dogs off leash for exercise.
> 
> ...


my dog is the same way. she wont eat unless she has been adequately exercised. she will also destroy my house if i dont exercise her. and she is a pit bull...she is not built to run like a sighthound but she is absolutely bursting with energy.

as far as rollerblading/skating is concerned...that has to be a thing you train the dog to be able to do without issue, it takes some work to get them to understand the idea.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> my dog is the same way. she wont eat unless she has been adequately exercised. she will also destroy my house if i dont exercise her. and she is a pit bull...she is not built to run like a sighthound but she is absolutely bursting with energy.
> 
> as far as rollerblading/skating is concerned...that has to be a thing you train the dog to be able to do without issue, it takes some work to get them to understand the idea.


Mine too. Although mine is a small 6 lbs Pap, she will dig, chew and claw holes in my wall if she didn't get enough exercise in one day although she has toys all over the house. She chooses not to chew those but to chew through my wall. I currently have 3 holes where I've fixed with plaster but haven't painted over yet in my house because she scratched and chewed her way into it. I don't even know how she does it, I keep her nails incredibly short (clip every week)... I swear sometimes she's more cat than dog.

Nia does understand the concept of rollerblading beside me. 98% of the time, she does it perfectly fine. However, that 2% she will somehow get distracted by another dog, a sound, s very strong smell, whatever it may be and suddenly stop. Since I'm afraid I'll hurt her because I can't stop that quick, I've just chosen not to do it. Most people don't recommend rollerblading or biking with such tiny dogs anyways.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

there are other ways.. it just requires a bit of ingenuity. have you tried doing agility type stuff with her?

my sister has a little tiny rat terrier and they built her an obstacle course inside the house complete with jumps, tunnels, weave poles and platforms.

the jumps were made with short x pen pieces, the tunnels are those cat tunnels you buy at walmart, the weave poles made from old broom handles screwed into a board and the platforms are just your average cardboard box. Paqui LOVES to run on her indoor agility course and my sis lives in a small apartment..but her dog is about the size of a pap and there's plenty of room. and no danger.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Adustgerm said:


> We live in town, but we bought up all of the surrounding properties so nobody can build there. and people actually bring their dogs to our property and let them run. We don't mind it. They don't know know we own everything past the hedges.


This would frost me no end. I would either put up a fence and charge admission or I would put out some very long hoses with motion-detector sprinkler heads attached to them to hose anyone who comes into my yard. People crossing your yard is one thing - who cares about that. Deliberately using your property w/o permission, esp. as a dog bathroom which you know is happening, is beyond the pale. Sheesh!




Foyerhawk said:


> I actually do believe that all dogs should be run HARD off leash every single day...


You haven't met my dog.  Scan down a few inches to my sig -- Hi, this is Poca. She likes to run. And run. And run. And run. I would never see her again if I let her off leash. No amount of recall training has fixed it. Maybe I'm a lousy trainer, but I think some dogs are just built that way. So we have 6 ft leashes and 30 ft and 60 ft and there are tennis courts and doggie daycares with big high fences, thank goodness.



Foyerhawk said:


> A yard (which I do have) is pointless with my dog. I have to actually walk or run *with* my lazy dog or he'll just stand around... I'm the goofy lady saying, "Come on! Come on! Yay!!!! RUN! WOOHOO, go boy, go!!!" while my dog stands around looking like a statue, glaring down his needle nose at me. Eventually, though, I tap his silly side, and get him to play! He really prefers woodlands hikes for serious exercise, which requires a lot of driving and creativity on my part.


I _*so*_ want your dog. Leashed. Unleashed. Don't care. Send him over.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Ooooh, ooooh, wanna really open a can of worms?!? Let's talk about leashes on children!! I see them at my vacation job (Disneyland) all the time, but we don't sell them on property because Walt Disney himself said he didn't like them.

I had a little girl, maybe three years old, come hurtling up to me and Alvin on our walk today. This doesn't bother him, because nothing bothers him, but I got freaked out because it seriously looked like she wasn't going to stop. You know when your 70lb dog comes full tilt at you from the far end of the dog park and you just stare in horror, feeling sure you're going to be on your butt in the dirt in a second? I honestly thought this little girl was just going to crash into our legs and send us sprawling!

She stopped on a dime when she got to us, but I wouldn't let her pet Alvin 'til she asked nicely, which she was NOT planning on doing until I required it.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> So we have 6 ft leashes and 30 ft and 60 ft and there are tennis courts and doggie daycares with big high fences, thank goodness.
> 
> I _*so*_ want your dog. Leashed. Unleashed. Don't care. Send him over.


But you DO run your dog off leash- in fenced places- it's still off leash! You're still getting her good and exercised!! And that's awesome!

LOL You can't have my boo, though. But, here's some examples of my dog's off leash behavior:





































See? He's always just sort of chilling and drinking in the air! lol

Anyway, I have never had a toddler, so I don't feel truly qualified to say whether kids should be on leashes. My gut reaction, though, is that it's not cool.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> there are other ways.. it just requires a bit of ingenuity. have you tried doing agility type stuff with her?
> 
> my sister has a little tiny rat terrier and they built her an obstacle course inside the house complete with jumps, tunnels, weave poles and platforms.
> 
> the jumps were made with short x pen pieces, the tunnels are those cat tunnels you buy at walmart, the weave poles made from old broom handles screwed into a board and the platforms are just your average cardboard box. Paqui LOVES to run on her indoor agility course and my sis lives in a small apartment..but her dog is about the size of a pap and there's plenty of room. and no danger.


I think this is a great way to exercise too, thanks for the advice! I would actually like to set up an agility course, or enroll her in an agility program. Currently that's not possible for me since my grandparents are staying over in our tiny place. They're sleeping in the living room because we don't have a guest room. After they leave, I will probably try to set up some equipment in the living room.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Oh and i take my dogs to the football pitch for offleash runs,there are no leash laws here and i feel for anybody who lives where you have to have your dog on a 6ft lead 24/7.


If it isn't illegal and your dogs are not a menace, then no one can argue with you. The situation the OP describes is one in which dogs are required to be on leash and his/hers isn't.

Surely no one lives in a place where dogs have to be leashed 24/7! I would think that sort of law would be impossible to enforce and would make dog ownership vastly too difficult for people who attempted to follow it.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> I can never run my dog hard on leash because I cannot run as fast or as long as her. That's my biggest problem. When I let her off leash she will run for 2 hours straight at very high speeds that I cannot match and I don't even have a sight hound. So I can imagine some owners of very fast dogs say their dogs are not exercised enough.


I guess this was the point I was trying to make earlier. If I encountered a dog I truly thought I could not sufficiently exercise without letting it off leash in an area larger than my yard, I would avoid owning said dog, because my circumstances (living in a city with leash laws) would prevent me from giving it what it needed. I would not get the dog and then justify breaking the law by saying I was trying to fulfill the dog's needs. I own dogs whose needs I can fulfill legally.

Having said that, I am still unsure as to how a dog's need to run full out for prolonged periods of time could not be fulfilled on leash with the use of a bike or roller blades, if one did not have access to a dog park or other large, dog friendly space.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> I've tried rollerblading with her and biking with her but I've found it rather dangerous, especially biking. She will sometimes stop dead in her tracks while running and once I was biking, I yanked her off her feet and dragged her for a few meters. It was really terrible and I've stopped doing that.


Yikes! You have to _train _a dog to run next to you on a bike!


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## hommi16 (Aug 13, 2009)

Eventhough I love dogs and would love to see them of leash, there are two main problems with dogs beign offleash on the streets. First, the majority of people I came across don't have full control of their dogs. Even if the dog is behaved around other people, when they see other dogs they are more inclined to run up to them and that is asking for trouble. The second reason is that there are many people that are uncomfortable with dogs, especially big ones. I have a boxer and even when he is on leash I notice people's reactions.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

FilleBelle said:


> Ooooh, ooooh, wanna really open a can of worms?!? Let's talk about leashes on children!! I see them at my vacation job (Disneyland) all the time, but we don't sell them on property because Walt Disney himself said he didn't like them.


Ok, I'll bite...what's so bad about kids on leashes in places like Disneyworld? I've never used one, but I've often thought it would be a good idea for kids in the 2-3 age group...I've taken my kids to Disney a few times and it was always a huge pita dragging the stroller on trams and then an excited toddler doesn't want to sit in it...out of the stroller though they could be separated from you in two seconds flat. I don't see the big deal, we hold their hands, confine them in strollers, why not put them on a leash in a place like that and give them a little freedom while at the same time keeping them safe?


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

sheltiemom said:


> Ok, I'll bite...what's so bad about kids on leashes in places like Disneyworld? I've never used one, but I've often thought it would be a good idea for kids in the 2-3 age group...I've taken my kids to Disney a few times and it was always a huge pita dragging the stroller on trams and then an excited toddler doesn't want to sit in it...out of the stroller though they could be separated from you in two seconds flat. I don't see the big deal, we hold their hands, confine them in strollers, why not put them on a leash in a place like that and give them a little freedom while at the same time keeping them safe?


I tend to agree. I've never really had a problem with such things...it keeps young kids from getting separated in a crowd and it's not like the child is suffering. So I don't really see what the issue is.

I do know for some people though, it's the whole 'leashing a kid' thing that bothers them. As in, a 'leashing is for animals, not people' type argument.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm just reporting company policy. Walt Disney said he didn't like them, so we don't sell them. As I am not Walt Disney, it follows that this is not necessarily my opinion.

Surely after reading this thread about dogs on leashes, though, you can see how the issue of children on leashes might be the can of worms that I mentioned!


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

sheltiemom said:


> Ok, I'll bite...what's so bad about kids on leashes in places like Disneyworld? I've never used one, but I've often thought it would be a good idea for kids in the 2-3 age group...I've taken my kids to Disney a few times and it was always a huge pita dragging the stroller on trams and then an excited toddler doesn't want to sit in it...out of the stroller though they could be separated from you in two seconds flat. I don't see the big deal, we hold their hands, confine them in strollers, why not put them on a leash in a place like that and give them a little freedom while at the same time keeping them safe?


We just went to Disney... I would not object to a child leash there, especially if you have multiple children under a certain.
There are soo many people there. I can imagine it's rather easy to get accidentally separated in lines. If I was bring my small children there, I'd be terrified someone might just grab them or they'd get lost. I doubt anything like that'd ever happen, but I guess I'm just paranoid.

What bothers me, is when someone leashes their kid at the grocery store because they don't feel like teaching your children manners and how to behave properly in public.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

A like the idea of leashing children. it also stops them from running up to my dogs while I'm out for a walk. Parents these days just let their kids roam, so irresponcible XD!


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Just like with the pups...leashes save lives.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Tankstar said:


> Some laws IMO are just a littler to far. legally around here yo are not allowed more then a 6 foot leash. so he either stays on that, and doesnt get free dom





FilleBelle said:


> If it isn't illegal and your dogs are not a menace, then no one can argue with you. The situation the OP describes is one in which dogs are required to be on leash and his/hers isn't.
> 
> Surely no one lives in a place where dogs have to be leashed 24/7! I would think that sort of law would be impossible to enforce and would make dog ownership vastly too difficult for people who attempted to follow it.


Fillebelle i realise what the OP was saying but like many others in this thread i was just sharing the off/on leash scenarios where im at.

The reason my dogs are leashed is because one of my dogs is indeed a menace if he is off,he is very DA so thats why off leash dogs running up to me is a problem as he will attack them straight away,he does have a muzzle but still i dont want him getting stressed when it can be avoided so if off leash dogs are good with recall its fine with me.

The 6ft leash 24/7 thing (i obviously meant when the dog is outside) ive quoted above by Tankstar,if i was Tankstar i wouldnt comply with that either and i would still go to the football pitch for off leash runs where there are no other dogs around.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I feel like this question has been asked several times, but never answered: Why does a dog need to be off leash to run?

To be clear, I am not advocating that dogs spend every waking moment on leashes. I am only trying to understand why there is such a strong feeling that a dog must be off a leash in order to exercise properly.


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## GatsbysMom (Jul 20, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> I feel like this question has been asked several times, but never answered: Why does a dog need to be off leash to run?


Just taking a shot here since there are no other responses anyway, but maybe the owner himself is inactive. I can imagine an inactive person living in a city, as I do, so thus they don't have a backyard for the dog to run in, and they won't or can't put on sneakers to run with the dog on a leash.

I am a pretty avid runner, but I don't really like running with my dog, Gatsby. He gets out of breath faster than I do and I don't like to slow down! So I let him run off leash at our dog park, as we don't have a backyard (nor do 98% of people living in my city).

I feel sorry for the big dogs whose owners are clearly inactive, and they also don't give their dog a chance to run by themselves. These are usually the folks who end up blaming the dogwalker for the dog being overweight... can I tell you how many times dogwalkers I know have heard, "Are you really walking my dog, or are you just taking him outside to go pee and then coming back in?" As in the 20 minutes a dog walker takes a dog out is going to be enough exercise!

ETA: In a city like Chicago, there is NO excuse not to let your dog run off leash for some of the time, if you aren't running the dog yourself... there's practically a dog park around every block, like Starbucks. My neighborhood, River North, is pretty small and easily has 3 or 4 off-leash parks.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> I feel like this question has been asked several times, but never answered: Why does a dog need to be off leash to run?


Well, I think the people that do walk their dogs off leash, even when leashes are required, are just trying to feel proud of something they've worked very hard for. They work hard so they can have a well behaved dog off leash, so they don't understand why they should have to leash them. To me, it's seems to be totally out of personal satisfaction.

Maybe I take things for granted because I have a nice yard for my dogs to run in, but I still can't see why people have to have their dogs off leash where they aren't supposed to.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

NM, no point! lol

I'll never agree that a Saluki or Borzoi can be correctly exercised and healthy if never allowed to gallop full out. So I'm bowing out!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Foyerhawk said:


> NM, no point! lol
> 
> I'll never agree that a Saluki or Borzoi can be correctly exercised and healthy if never allowed to gallop full out. So I'm bowing out!


from my friend Liana (we both saw what you posted)


hi I have sighthounds and I never let them off leash. but just because a dog is leashed that doesn't mean they can't run full steam. its easy; get a long line and a longe whip and a plastic bag. tie the plastic bag to the end of the whip and put the dog on the long line, in effect creating a safely contained lure coursing situation.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

FilleBelle said:


> Ooooh, ooooh, wanna really open a can of worms?!? Let's talk about leashes on children!! I see them at my vacation job (Disneyland) all the time, but we don't sell them on property because Walt Disney himself said he didn't like them.


Leashes on children are the exact same thing as holding their hands, just they get to wander a little farther away! Plus, you don't have to deal with all the sticky, clammy goodness of little kid hands, and if they want to go hug Mickey, you've still got a hold of them.

Also, I used to want to get either a Whippet or an Italian Greyhound, but I'm very glad I got a Pap! Basil can tire himself out running around our living room in our tiny one bedroom apartment. But even so, he prefers to wrestle instead of running. He's a very easy keeper in terms of exercise. I take him for walks everyday, (speeds range from lazy ambling to brisk power-walk) but that's mostly because it's healthier for both of us to get out and get some fresh air once in a while.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Leashes on kids?? WTF.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Leashes on kids?? WTF.


Yup. Leashes on kids.
When we had our twin boys, that was the only way my wife could keep track of them on our outings. How else is a blind woman going to "watch" two boys full of energy?
It worked very well for us, and we got lots of compliments from those who saw how it worked. In fact, the school for the blind my wife attended is now teaching young blind mothers to use the leash if needed when they are alone with their children for short periods of time.
It all depends on the individual situation.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

I HATE the rats that cal the SPCA, they need lives. Or at least a darn hobby.

I call the Animal Control because it is a violation of both State and Federal law for an off-leash (and on-leash) dog to attack or interfere with a working service dog. A "rat" I may be, but I make no excuses nor offer any explanations for taking actions to keep my wife and her Guide dog safe. That is my life, and consequently, my hobby.
Now, some Swiss would be great to go with the pepper spray for the offending dog...........


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

PappyMom said:


> The 6ft leash 24/7 thing (i obviously meant when the dog is outside) ive quoted above by Tankstar,if i was Tankstar i wouldnt comply with that either and i would still go to the football pitch for off leash runs where there are no other dogs around.


Thanks. Its not like I just walk him on the path with no leash to get to the field. We get there, if there is another dog we dont know (we have come to know majority of the dogs int he area, who is friendly and who is not, who Blaze can play offleash with and who he cant) we do some more wlaking to the next field, and again tot he next if there are people. Im not ignorent and just walk him the 1/2 mile from my house ont he roads offleash. we wait until we get to the school field, corn field, creek path ect.



FilleBelle said:


> I feel like this question has been asked several times, but never answered: Why does a dog need to be off leash to run?
> 
> To be clear, I am not advocating that dogs spend every waking moment on leashes. I am only trying to understand why there is such a strong feeling that a dog must be off a leash in order to exercise properly.


 Why do I let my dog offleash to run> for some freedom. why not, he enjoys it, I enjoy sitting down and taking a break from our long walks under a tree and having a smoke. its my time and his time. He doesnt stray far, smells the bushs, pees on some stuff. Perks up his head if he sees a dog, bike, rabbit, bird ect. But then goes along again just smelling stuff. He is no nusience. Comes when called, doesnt go further then 20 feet, unless I release him and tell him its ok to run. Most times he just smells trees, goes down the the creek gets a drink takes a swim and comes back up to roll int he grass. Im not walking down the steep, prickly very busy hill to the creek. he enjoys going the 15 feet there, I dont. So I let him off for some enjoyment.

He doesnt need to be offleash. as I also bike ride with him every day. Some days he stays ont he leash the whole time, others I let him off to do the above. Others I let him off, and I myself ride around the school field, practicing hand signals (I like using those for bike riding with him, instead of calling out, turn, stop, slow down ect)with him while he is offleash. he is "working" and paying attention to me.


Smithcat said:


> I HATE the rats that cal the SPCA, they need lives. Or at least a darn hobby.
> 
> I call the Animal Control because it is a violation of both State and Federal law for an off-leash (and on-leash) dog to attack or interfere with a working service dog. A "rat" I may be, but I make no excuses nor offer any explanations for taking actions to keep my wife and her Guide dog safe. That is my life, and consequently, my hobby.
> Now, some Swiss would be great to go with the pepper spray for the offending dog...........


I think the other poster meant, people who call just becuase they see a dog walking offleash, minding its own business. I too would and have called A/C on people who have rude dogs that are on OR offleash. But if I see a dog, walking at a heal, minding its owner, Im not calling. Why bother? dog isnt bothering any one. A/C around here has much more importent things to do then go after sme one breaking a petty leash law. compared to a dog agressive dog, a dog at large with no owner, a animal neglect case. 

Around here it takes A/C 2 days to call back for anything even serious. I have been calling about a tied out GSD for days, who I have seen be abused with a baseball bat, My boyfriend and I watched as the owners child beat it. And when I went to the hosue to tell the parents, the laughed and said they were playing. Playing my ass, when a dog rolls on its back and pisses itself it is NOT playing.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i dont just randomly call AC on every offleash dog.

if the area is one where offleash is legally permitted. fine. i dont care.

if the area is one where offleash is NOT permitted..yes i will call because no one is above the law. the law is in place to protect people and if no one gives a damn about it then why have it in the first place? the law is there. if someone doesnt like the fact that i report them for BREAKING THE LAW, they can go to city council and petition to have it changed.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i dont just randomly call AC on every offleash dog.
> 
> if the area is one where offleash is legally permitted. fine. i dont care.
> 
> if the area is one where offleash is NOT permitted..yes i will call because no one is above the law. the law is in place to protect people and if no one gives a damn about it then why have it in the first place? the law is there. if someone doesnt like the fact that i report them for BREAKING THE LAW, they can go to city council and petition to have it changed.


I think if you lived in our area yo would be calling animal control everyday. We have dogs off leash, dogs with no owners, dogs with owners that don't own a leash, groups of dogs off leash, etc. all the time. Everyday I meet at least 5 or 6 off leash dogs and we never have a problem.

One dog that lives here called Arrow leaves his house by himself whenever he wants to go and play with all the dogs in the neighborhood and the field. When he's done, he goes home. He's been doing this for 4 years and no one has called anybody.

For me it's as long as the other dog or my dog is not going up to other dogs, bothering them, etc. I don't care in the slightest. Even if another dog were to growl at mine, I just make it leave. I won't call animal control unless there's really a aggressive dog that bites and attacks other dogs for no reason.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> One dog that lives here called Arrow leaves his house by himself whenever he wants to go and play with all the dogs in the neighborhood and the field. When he's done, he goes home. He's been doing this for 4 years and no one has called anybody.


I hope he doesn't go near any roads while he's on his way to these neighborhoods and fields. I also hope that he never runs into the wrong dog one day.


One thing I cannot stand more than anything is when people allow their dogs to roam.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

if a dog is offleash with no owner around..I catch it. I leash it up, run by the vet's to check for a chip..if there's a chip I call the owner. if theres no chip I take it to a shelter. 

Ac responds here. they have to. here by law if you feel threatened by a dog for whatever reason..that dog is considered a dangerous dog. and I do feel threatened by unleashed dogs because they are an unknown quantity. the reason I started doing it this way is because there was one owner around here with a 160 pound mix she used to walk offleash. I thought nothing of it because the dog behaved very nicely offleash and stayed near the owner. for months it continued this way..until one day I pulled up with a stray that I had just taken to the vet. he had a fairly large wound and I was going to hang onto him until he healed before giving him to the shelter. this offleash mix was passing by with her owner and started sniffing at the air. I guess she smelled the blood or something but she charged us and shattered the glass on my door that I just barely got inside before she hit it. 

Nothing is certain and no training is foolproof. 

fortunately most around here are decent law abiding citizens and keep their dogs legally contained. I maybe at most end up calling about once a month. 

if there is abuse going on, I invoke my rights under Chapter 19a (an NC law that allows private citizens to make a civil suit against animal abusers) and sue the bejeebers out of them. which has only happened once but I would be glad to do it again.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> I hope he doesn't go near any roads while he's on his way to these neighborhoods and fields. I also hope that he never runs into the wrong dog one day.
> 
> 
> One thing I cannot stand more than anything is when people allow their dogs to roam.


He belongs to an orphaned girl that lives with several orphans in the same house with a lovely couple. They take in some orphans when orphanage are full.

The girl doesn't want her dog out but he's dug a hole into the fence and always gets out by himself. Whenever she notices, she will go and catch him back but 95% of the time she doesn't notice.

He does go on busy streets and everyday he crosses the street twice to get to the park. He knows how to do it properly and never walks when there are cars anywhere in sight. The 2 street aren't that busy.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> if a dog is offleash with no owner around..I catch it. I leash it up, run by the vet's to check for a chip..if there's a chip I call the owner. if theres no chip I take it to a shelter.


Arrow does have a chip but he won't be caught by anyone. He'll happily sniff people and come up to them if you say hi to him but the moment you try to catch or pick him up, he runs home.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

there was one dog I caught that was like that. he'd come towards you if you called but would run away if you tried to touch him. I had my sister stand behind my open front door and stood waaay back in the hall with some treats. as soon as he crossed the threshold of the door, she closed it.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> there was one dog I caught that was like that. he'd come towards you if you called but would run away if you tried to touch him. I had my sister stand behind my open front door and stood waaay back in the hall with some treats. as soon as he crossed the threshold of the door, she closed it.


Funny thing is Arrow never eats treats. He doesn't eat anything anyone gives him. He always seems to know which people to go to and when to get away. I'm pretty sure someone or another have tried to catch him (mainly to sell or keep) in the last 4 years and yet he's still here and well.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

then he is a lucky guy not to have been killed by a dog or wild animal or been snatched by a buncher or worse.


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## Nicotine (Aug 14, 2009)

I don't think it's as much an issue with the DOGS, as it is the owners....

there's a time and a place. 

if it's not safe, or there is aggressive dogs around, or if YOUR own dog is aggressive - then just be smart about it.


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## ShadowSky (Aug 6, 2008)

If it's under control and you keep it away from other dogs? Fine. There are plenty of people around here who bring there dogs to the beach and to the bluff and let them off leash, and they mind their own business and keep their dog(s) with them, and in my experience they have good recalls.

If you're like two of my neighbors and just let your dog run the neighborhood unsupervised? No. Not cool. One of them is over here often harassing our dogs at the fence. The problem is that he is an incredibly likable dog. But it makes me afraid to walk Jake on our own street, because I'm not sure how he would react to Charlie outside of the fence, and he can be a bit odd about strange dogs; and it isn't safe to the dog. The family's guests also allow their dogs to run loose about the neighborhood. 

Incredibly frustrating. There IS a leash law, and it states that the dog must be on leash or under voice control. I don't call being turned out into the street for the neighbors to deal with, no matter how friendly the dog, as being 'under control'.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

I have no qualms with off leash dogs provided they are extremely well behaved/trained. I get pissy when people just let their dogs run up to mine whether it's on or off leash. They need to ask. Sometimes, I'm just not in the mood for it. Kaki does very well off leash. She heels perfectly even when there's cars, kids, food, dogs, small furries. I have complete control of where she goes and whether or not she is allowed to chase a small furry or greet a dog. However, I'd never let Hugh run free outside of the DP because I know he'd annoy the living bejesus out of some passerby.

I'm aware that I'm breaking the law but Kaki disturbs nobody. And her ability to be off leash has been so helpful when I need an emergency leash with strays etc.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> He belongs to an orphaned girl that lives with several orphans in the same house with a lovely couple. They take in some orphans when orphanage are full.
> 
> The girl doesn't want her dog out but he's dug a hole into the fence and always gets out by himself. Whenever she notices, she will go and catch him back but 95% of the time she doesn't notice.
> 
> He does go on busy streets and everyday he crosses the street twice to get to the park. He knows how to do it properly and never walks when there are cars anywhere in sight. The 2 street aren't that busy.



There is a dog that lives down the road from me. Sweet guy just like the one you describe. He's been roaming out of his yard from a few years. A few months ago he got hit by a car. It nearly broke my heart to see him limping around.

It is only a matter of time. Dogs cannot predict drunk drivers and other people that are just driving recklessly just for the heck of it. Other meaner, dogs may get out of their fences one day and attack him. Things happen.

I really do hope for the little girl's sake that no harm ever come to Arrow. Of course she does not want him to get out, and yes things do happen, but things need to be done to prevent escape artists.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> One dog that lives here called Arrow leaves his house by himself whenever he wants to go and play with all the dogs in the neighborhood and the field. When he's done, he goes home. He's been doing this for 4 years and no one has called anybody.
> 
> .


Thats when i would be calling, A/C, Catchin that dog and driving it far away to a remoter shelter. I dont care if they arew orphan girls, and that 95% of the time they go looking for their dog. They need to learn how to contain the dog. period. 


zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> if a dog is offleash with no owner around..I catch it. I leash it up, run by the vet's to check for a chip..if there's a chip I call the owner. if theres no chip I take it to a shelter.
> 
> Ac responds here. .



Thats what I do.

and here, it takes days for A/C to respond to what they think of as "petty calls" there is only 3 I believe A/C officers for the county. thats5 towns, with about 100K (give or take) in each town. I cant even get them to go after the GSD owners who abuse their dog.


I have never met any dogs offleash here with a problem. The dogs I have problems with are the beagle, the black lab and the GSD, ALL on flexis, wearing haltis (I call that a oxymoron, a long leash for some freedom, but a halti for control? huh) who are so agressive when you pass by they stand on their back legs trying to get to any dog that passes, growling and snorting. The beagle has got Blaze in the face, I wish I had my phone on me that day. I chewed that "lady" ot really bad.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I think it's cruel not to let dogs like Salukis and Whippets run, and not on a line where they can get tangled and injured. I am entitled to that view, just as much as you're entitled to yours. And that is okay.

I will continue to run my dogs which have never done harm to anyone, and you will continue to leash your dog which has never done harm to anyone. It's all good!

I also have a European perspective too. I spent time there, and in the UK it's pretty much a cultural norm to run your dogs every day off leash. People who do not do so are often looked down upon. It is a different world, there, too- with open fields, very socialized dogs, and a lot more dog friendly cities and towns and culture. I loved it!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Tankstar said:


> Thats when i would be calling, A/C, Catchin that dog and driving it far away to a remoter shelter. I dont care if they arew orphan girls, and that 95% of the time they go looking for their dog. They need to learn how to contain the dog. period.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the following is why I can't stand offleash dogs in areas where it is NOT allowed..

"She's never run off or acted like that *before*. And I promise she'll never do it *again*"

yeah. right. I don't understand how a false sense of security is supposed to be reassuring to myself concerning both my dog AND my three year old child. I've had a so called "well behaved" off leash dog knock my child's stroller over because it was playing with another dog and they rolled down the hill. My kid got scraped up and busted his lip open and then owners had the gall to get mad at me for reporting them because "they were just playing"

my child was hurt. he could have cracked his head on the pavement and hadto go to the hospital. if he had, those owners would have had the crap sued out of them.

things like that are the reason the areas that off leash is banned are the way they are. They aren't area for dogs to play and socialize. Parks are where children play and even the most well behaved friendly dog can cause a child harm if they are roughhousing and whatnot.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I agree. I wouldn't let a dog rough-house or play in a place like that either. (My dog doesn't rough-house anyway- he doesn't like that kind of play and he's 12 years old). It's also why I get upset when people take small kids into a dog park. That IS where dogs are supposed to play rough- then the parent gets mad when the child gets knocked down. I feel sorry for the child in that case... being taken somewhere inherently unsafe for children 

I'm sorry your son got injured, and I am glad it was not worse than it was.


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## DragonNighthowler (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm european too, and I like walking my dogs without risk.

I've seen enough of how people "educate" (to call it something) their dogs, to not trust off-leash dogs.

I own a greyhound, I know how much he loves to sprint. That's why I normally let him off the leash at 3 am, in enclosed places, where he won't bother anyone, nor be bothered by any other dog.
Like I already stated, my dog is fearful, if others come up very straight to him, or bark at him. It's not the first time I have to hold him from the waist, because he's been very close to ripping off the collar, or harness.

Why do I have to risk loosing my dog, because and idiot's dog thought it a fantastic idea to come barking at mine?

Same goes for the pom. She could bite, and get in a quarrel with bigger dogs. She doesn't like contact, so why does anyone's dog have to come ruin our walks?

Your dogs have a reliable call? Fantastic, mine do too (although I'm not sure the grey would come back if frightened). 

BUt Mr Ed's dog might not have a reliable call/ might be aggressive/ who knows what else.
You're giving that man the precedent for letting his uneducated, unpolite dog off leash, and ruin the rest of our walks.

I have owned a dalmatian. I have let it off leash in forest areas, where it couldn't bother anyone. I'm fine with that, as I do it myself with the dal (when she was alive), and a couple of days a week with the greyhound.

I'm completely and totally against letting dogs off leash in urban areas. First because there is a law.
Second, your dog is your choice. I want a siberian husky, and I don't own one because I can't make sure I'll be able to give it what it needs. That's why I chose a dog that fit my life style.
That's why my parents own a pomeranian, not a dalmatian (like they used to when they were younger).

I mean, it isn't cruel walking a greyhound on leash. 
Cruel is getting, for example, a highly energetic dog like dalmatian, and walking it 20 minutes twice a day, because the place where you live in makes it impossible, or your lifestyle, to properly care for that dog.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the places around here where offleash is banned are as follows 

neighborhoods...where children and cats are everywhere, and where people's property rights need to be respected.

business sections of town...where there is heavy traffic of both the pedestrian and the vehicular variety. A dog running into the street could both get that dog injured/killed and could even cause people to get hurt if someone were to swerve to try to miss hitting a dog.

parks THAT HAVE PLAY FIXTURES FOR CHILDREN. 

schools...again..the children issue...

and private property at the discretion of the owners..if the owners are cool with it..there are usually signs posted saying so. and that goes back to the property right issue.

imo those are all GOOD reasons not to allow offleash dogs. its for the protection of both people and dogs alike. 




there are parks and places where its ok to let your dog go offleash. they have signs posted that say so which lets parents know that dogs could be playing there. there is NO good reason for people who live here to be letting dogs offleash where it isn't allowed. 

Im not a rat. I care about safety.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Not to mention that they are DOGS. You can say they have excellent recall, but let's just say your male dog is off-leash where it's not supposed to be, and a sweet little unspayed female poodle in heat walks by, on leash. Do you really think your dog is going to turn around when you call it's name? Haha, I doubt it highly. Also, not mentioning the fact that even the sweetest of dogs can become aggressive when females in heat are around.

Stop being stubborn and leash your dogs to protect them. There are plenty of places to go for off-leash sessions, you just have to look around. And if you do not have DPs, get a group of dog lovers together, and start one. Figure out fundraising activities, a good place to construct one, etc. In no time, you'll have a DP where you can safely let your dog off-leash. Until then, figure out different ways to exercise your dogs.

Also, if you think that you can't do it (start a DP, that is), Check out: http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/news_wtnh_middlefield_boy_scout_dog_park_200904012302_rev1

If a 15 year old boyscout can do it, then I'm sure any of us could do it too. I've been to this park as well, and it's a nice start, they are expanding it and working on the removal of some tree stumps, but other than that, he did a great job, and did it all on his own.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the following is why I can't stand offleash dogs in areas where it is NOT allowed..
> 
> "She's never run off or acted like that *before*. And I promise she'll never do it *again*"
> 
> ...



That sucks. I can understand why you called. I would have also. Thats why I dont let my dog offleash around people children if they are close by. even though Blaze has no intrest in people at all. Not even my friends he has known since he was 8w eeks old, they come over and he looks at them and walks off. he is not a people dog lol I like that about him.


zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the places around here where offleash is banned are as follows
> 
> neighborhoods...where children and cats are everywhere, and where people's property rights need to be respected.
> 
> ...


Understandable again.
I would never walk Blaze offleash in the town, I live ont he back roads of town. My town isnt huge, but its busy enough that I wouldnt risk it ever.

Achool yards I let him off at the one by my house, It is fenced in on 3 sides, has 2 paths, a tall hill I stand on top off, I can see ALL around me (heck I can see the skyline of Toronto in the distance, its a tall hill lol) If I see some one, I leash him, even though I know he wouldnt bother to even do more then look in their direction. It is after all a soccer field, and people have more of a right to be there then me, my dog and a tennis ball. So we leave if they enter the field. simple.


We will not agree. But I too will continue to let my dog offleash where I feel he is safe, the public is safe ect.



PappyMom said:


> Not to mention that they are DOGS. You can say they have excellent recall, but let's just say your male dog is off-leash where it's not supposed to be, and a sweet little unspayed female poodle in heat walks by, on leash. Do you really think your dog is going to turn around when you call it's name? Haha, I doubt it highly. Also, not mentioning the fact that even the sweetest of dogs can become aggressive when females in heat are around.
> 
> Stop being stubborn and leash your dogs to protect them. There are plenty of places to go for off-leash sessions, you just have to look around..



I know fpr a fact my dog listens when a female in heat is around. My dog is so non dog agressive, and he is intact. All his attention can easily be brought to me with a call of his name, picking up his tennis ball, or even a freaking rock (he is obsessed with rocks for some reason.)

There is plenty of places to play offleash in my neighboorhood. and I use them. even if alot of people here dont agree. You dont live here, or see the neighboorhood, so you dont get the full picture.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

1) My dog WOULD listen to me around a bitch in season. For one, he's neutered, and even before he was, I had absolute (and not difficult to achieve) voice control over him even in such a situation. I have, however, had dogs where that would not be the case, and I did not offleash them in public ever.

2) I am not arguing that dogs should be free run exercised in parks and school yards, or even anywhere unfenced and not legal. At one point, the discussion here was, simply, can a dog be exercised adequately without EVER being off of a leash in a yard or other place to run. My answer to that is still, "In most cases, no". However, that running does not have to be illegally in the school soccer field


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> He doesnt need to be offleash.


My question was not why you do let your dog off leash. My question was why is it necessary to exercise a dog off leash. As I understand you, it isn't. You sometimes prefer to let the dog off the leash so that you don't have to exercise with it. I definitely get that. Alvin would probably like to take three walks every day, but I generally only have the time and inclination for two, so I often chill on my porch with a glass of iced tea and throw a stuffed toy around the yard for him to catch. He gets exercise, I get to relax. But I'm also doing it legally.



Foyerhawk said:


> NM, no point! lol
> 
> I'll never agree that a Saluki or Borzoi can be correctly exercised and healthy if never allowed to gallop full out. So I'm bowing out!





Foyerhawk said:


> I think it's cruel not to let dogs like Salukis and Whippets run, and not on a line where they can get tangled and injured. I am entitled to that view, just as much as you're entitled to yours. And that is okay.
> 
> I will continue to run my dogs which have never done harm to anyone, and you will continue to leash your dog which has never done harm to anyone. It's all good!


You are frustrated with a conversation that doesn't exist. No one is claiming that dogs don't need or should not be permitted to run. That would be completely insane. I've asked two questions and neither of them have to do with whether or not dogs should be allowed to gallop full out.

1) How is galloping full out on a leash superior to galloping full out off a leash?

2) If a particular dog (or breed) must be exercised off leash in order to be happy and healthy, why would someone who cannot legally fulfill that need due to a lack of yard, no access to a dog park, and/or leash laws obtain such a dog?

Here's my deal: I don't really mind a little law breaking. If my destination is directly across the street from me and the nearest crosswalk is half a mile down the road, I'm going to wait for a stop in traffic and I'm going to jaywalk. If a person's dog is well behaved and focused, I'm not going to call animal control if I happen to see them practicing recalls on a long line in a secluded area of the local park, even though it's supposed to be on a six foot leash.

What _does _drive me crazy is the arbitrary breaking of rules that are easy to follow. For example, when the high school students I teach jaywalk, they do it six yards from the crosswalk and they stop traffic to do it. Or when people with off-leash dogs go places where leashes are _required by law_ when no one can provide me with a reason for doing so. 

I also dislike illogical arguments such as, "My dog is well behaved so I should be able to let him off the leash." Well, yes, that would make sense, but the law isn't for people who are already doing what they are supposed to, is it? Just because I drive the speed limit doesn't mean we should abolish it. Laws are to protect everyone and, as such, everyone must participate for them to work. 

"My dog is well behaved" is also open to interpretation, which a law tends to put an end to. We could certainly write a law saying that well behaved dogs may be off-leash in on-leash areas. But what if I don't care that my dog jumps on other people, so I claim that it is well behaved? What if I am like the OP and I claim that my off-leash dog is well behaved even though it approaches other dogs without my permission "if they get too close." Or what if I don't think _your _dog is well behaved? What if it frightens me or bothers me?

Finally, laws are preemptive. We all know what follows a dog biting a child or jumping on an elderly person or growling at another animal: "Well, he's never done THAT before!" All dogs are well behaved...until the moment they're not. I am a human being, with the capacity to reason and to think ahead. Still, there are stimuli that would cause me to act erratically. I am not a generally fearful person, but I can think of a few things that might occur that would cause me to panic and run or fall to the ground in tears. I am also not a violent person, but I can think of a few situations in which I could and would cause another human (or animal) bodily harm. Are these things not also true for our dogs? The problem with dogs, of course, is that they can't tell us what might cause them to behave erratically, so we can't know if they are suddenly going to decide to chase THIS squirrel into the street or lunge at THAT dog or knock down THAT child. Putting a law in place reduces the possibility _before _it occurs.

Whew...I think I got out about all that I have in me! I read the new posts in this thread last night but I couldn't respond because I was working, so I had all night to think about it, lol.



Foyerhawk said:


> At one point, the discussion here was, simply, can a dog be exercised adequately without EVER being off of a leash in a yard or other place to run. My answer to that is still, "In most cases, no". However, that running does not have to be illegally in the school soccer field


Where was this question asked?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

my position is pretty simple.

people who don't want to deal with offleash dogs should be able to go to places where it is prohibited and expect to see NO offleash dogs.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> my position is pretty simple.
> 
> people who don't want to deal with offleash dogs should be able to go to places where it is prohibited and expect to see NO offleash dogs.


What the big difference, a well behaved dog offleash, obeying its owner, or a dog onleash? not much, if neither are coming up to you, are ignoring you, whats the problem with that?

Around here the problem dogs like I said earlier are on flexis, 15 feet away from their owners, zig zaging around the bike path, causing me to slam on my breaks on my bike to avoid one. although my dog who is leashed, at this point, as it is a bust pedestrian area/dog area is ignoring that dog, until that dog on his leash full out tries to attack me and my dog? happened just a few days ago with the stupid black lab I hate with a passion.

The dog is ON a leash, yet is still a menace, even thought the nasty beast is still some what contained (I dont call a flexi leash a real containment or a leash IMO, but most do seeing as how popular the horrible things are), yet (cant think of the freaking dogs name) is walking, offleash at a heal with its owner, not even a collar on, while her owners is pulling a wagon. Doesnt even so much as glance at Blaze and I riding by on our bike. The dog is perfect, never takes her eyes of her owner, sits the second he stops walking, and has a stay to die for.



FilleBelle said:


> My question was not why you do let your dog off leash. My question was why is it necessary to exercise a dog off leash. As I understand you, it isn't. You sometimes prefer to let the dog off the leash so that you don't have to exercise with it. I definitely get that. Alvin would probably like to take three walks every day, but I generally only have the time and inclination for two, so I often chill on my porch with a glass of iced tea and throw a stuffed toy around the yard for him to catch. He gets exercise, I get to relax. But I'm also doing it legally.


Why not Fulfills his wants and needs, to walk around and smell junk. I personally think it is necassery for a dog to just be a dog, off a leash in a area where he can just be a dog, roll in stuff, chew grass, sniff bushs, pee, take a swim. No one is aroud. We are not bothering any one. Im glad you have a large enough porch to play on with your dog.my backyard is about 15X15 feet, the front yard is non existent as its all driveway, and about 20 feet from the road, its a town house, no room for play on our property,


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the problem imo with that line of thinking is that an unhealthy precedent gets set. 

like "oh that person can get away with it here...I should be able to as well"

and invariably this excuse "but they get to do it, why can't I?" pops up. 

by making ZERO exceptions in enforcing the rules..I and others in my neighborhood have cut the number of serious offenders WAAAAAAY down. We get an average of maybe one every one or two months as opposed to more than one problem dog a day. Because people tell others..."Don't take your dog offleash there...you'll get in trouble. I got a fifty dollar fine for it. "

in areas where people let it slide its a big problem. 


and I hate flexis. I've been known to whip out a pocket knife when confronted with unruly psycho dogs on flexis, cut the flexi off at about three feet and tie a loop on the cut off end as im calling AC on them for their dog being a monster that's terrorizing people.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

The difference is that, according to my city's leash laws, one is legal and one is not. In fact, the stupid black Lab that you hate with a passion is also illegally contained, as my city requires a six foot lead. If you were here and the owner of said dog was following the law, you would have to worry considerably less about the dog getting in your way on the bike path. (Why are there dogs on the bike path?) You could also seek legal redress if the dog on the flexi lead caused you or your property harm, as the owner is breaking the law.

Your proposal seems to be that, because leashes are not always successful at keeping a dog under control, leashes should not be required. This is illogical. Red lights are not always successful at getting people to stop at intersections. Should we remove them? Just because there is a law does not mean it is going to work as intended 100% of the time. But if a leash law keeps even 50% of random dogs that I don't want to interact with away from me, then it is better than nothing at all. Is it truly your opinion that, in a majority of cases, a leash does not afford an owner an extra measure of control over his or her dog?

It seems that there is a feeling of injustice here, as thought leash laws are somehow a punishment to well behaved dogs. How is walking on a leash a punishment for a well behaved dog? Why is the well behaved dog in your scenario with the wagon off-leash? Is walking at a heel something that could not be accomplished on-leash? Why break a law when it is completely unnecessary and unbeneficial to do so?


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the following is why I can't stand offleash dogs in areas where it is NOT allowed..
> 
> "She's never run off or acted like that *before*. And I promise she'll never do it *again*"
> 
> ...


I've often seen children hurt dogs as well. My friend's Pomeranian cracked his spine because he is a senior 10 years old and some kids were trying to play with him and ended up stepping on him by accident. He was on a leash as well. So doesn't this argument go both ways? I've also often seen children throwing rocks, cans, leaves, whatever they can find at dogs even if they're on a leash. One time a rock hit this boxer so hard blood started to come out of his eyelid. Shouldn't children and dogs both be on leashes then? I think sometimes some children's recall is worse than dogs. so should dog owners say for the safety of our dogs, children have to be kept on leashes at all times?

Also I agree that in Europe dogs leash laws are not as strict. I live in London England 3 months of every year most of the years and dogs are allowed off leash in all parks. There's tons of children and on the beach there are even babies playing in the sand and nothing bad happens at least not that I'm aware of. In Paris dogs are even allowed in restaurants and stores. My friend brings her Yorkie into every restaurant and every shopping place. They don't even require dogs to be on leash so I don't really see a problem.

Also, some people are saying that everyone needs to stay within the laws. I think most people have crossed a street when there's no pedestrian crossing light or something like that. It's illegal here too but 90% of people still do it. They know they are at risk and could get themselves killed but since they understand and accept the risks, I don't think it's a problem. 

Here, biking or rollerblading on the sidewalk is illegal too so if you were biking your dog, you would have to do it on the street which is a bit dangerous in my opinion. Some cars are not very friendly towards bikers. 

I think leashing or not really depends on a city's situation. Here, probably 50% of the people don't leash and no one really cares. There's not that many cars and dogs are well behaved. I can understand some cities there are more problems with dogs and people tend to follow the laws and keep their dogs on leashes. Our city is quite strange, my friend's dog got fined $100 for not leashing her dog although she put her dog off the car on the passenger side and she was holding the lead to put on her dog after she got out of the driver's side of the car. Her dog was 50 lbs and it was a freeway so it was dangerous to let her dog off the driver's side. The city animal patrol saw and fined her although her dog was 1 m away from her and she was reaching to put the leash on. Yet the officers don't come to check the parks, school fields, etc. and other areas where most people let their dogs off leash.

Due to this thread, I've stopped letting my dog off leash except for the dog park and tennis courts. I think for now it's fine for me. I will definitely get a treadmill to fulfill her running requirements off leash and I will run her in our small backyard or even in the house.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

A little off topic from whats being discussed here currently (this thread has twisted and turned alot.haha) about an hour ago i was walking the dogs and as i came to the last pathway a lone dog came right in my direction,i thought "s%$*" i didnt move (and ive never seen a stray dog here before) the dog looked at me and my dogs,put his/her? head down and calmly turned back. The owner appeared and the dog followed him.

Point is i really dont mind dogs like that who clearly have no interest in other dogs and stick by their owners even if they are 10 feet or so behind.
As the owner walked past i told him his dog was very well behaved and he smiled and said "thank you"

Ive also never seen the breed before,it was as big as a lab,maybe taller and had jet black fur which was like afro hair,shame i didnt ask the owner but it was a cool dog.


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## GatsbysMom (Jul 20, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I've often seen children hurt dogs as well.


Funny you mention that. The last time I was at a dog park, an older gentleman was there with his three granddaughters. I found out that he didn't even have a dog at the park, he had just brought his grandkids out to see all the puppies. Something about that struck me as inappropriate. Dog parks are not petting zoos for children.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

GatsbysMom said:


> Funny you mention that. The last time I was at a dog park, an older gentleman was there with his three granddaughters. I found out that he didn't even have a dog at the park, he had just brought his grandkids out to see all the puppies. Something about that struck me as inappropriate. Dog parks are not petting zoos for children.


I agree. That drives me nuts. Children are not allowed in most of the dog parks around me, I'm pretty sure. Definitely unsupervised children are posted as never allowed.

Food of any kind is not allowed either, and it really bugs me when someone brings McDonald's to a dog park and then kicks all the Labs and Beagles (or any greedy dogs) that proceed to follow him around and beg. Duh? 

I once even saw a moron dump out a half a box of unwanted fries onto the GROUND at a dog park, which of course resulted in a pack of dogs, none of which knew eachother, racing towards the fries. A huge fight broke out, and luckily I told my dog no and he stayed by my side, as did a few other well trained or elderly/indifferent dogs. But my word, the idiocy!

I know that was off topic, but it's been bugging me for about a year now! (the fries incident!) lol


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I wouldn't even take a dog friendly dog to a dog park..why the crap would I take my child?


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> Why not Fulfills his wants and needs, to walk around and smell junk. I personally think it is necassery for a dog to just be a dog, off a leash in a area where he can just be a dog, roll in stuff, chew grass, sniff bushs, pee, take a swim. No one is aroud. We are not bothering any one. Im glad you have a large enough porch to play on with your dog.my backyard is about 15X15 feet, the front yard is non existent as its all driveway, and about 20 feet from the road, its a town house, no room for play on our property,


Walk around, smell junk, roll in stuff, chew grass, sniff bushes, pee, swim. Which one of these cannot be done in your 15' by 15' yard? The swimming, obviously, unless you have a very tiny pool. Which of these cannot be done on a leash off of your property? None of them.

I too am glad I have a large enough yard for the dog to play. I did this on purpose. I already had the dog when I moved, so I found a place that suited his needs as well as my own. Next time I'm choosing a dog I will, of course, already have the place, so I will select one that suits my circumstances. Which returns me to my second question: If a particular dog (or breed) must be exercised off leash in order to be happy and healthy, why would someone who cannot legally fulfill that need due to a lack of yard, no access to a dog park, and/or leash laws obtain such a dog?



Michiyo-Fir said:


> so should dog owners say for the safety of our dogs, children have to be kept on leashes at all times?


You are employing a form of a classic logical fallacy: the slippery slope. If we do A, it will lead to B. We do not want to do B, therefore we should not do A. If it makes sense to put leashes on dogs, then it makes sense to put leashes on children. We don't want to put leashes on children, so we shouldn't put leashes on dogs.

Seriously?

B does not always follow A. While we have discussed the merits of leashing children in this very thread, I am going to assume that you know as well as I do that this argument is astoundingly silly.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> [Europeans] don't even require dogs to be on leash so I don't really see a problem.


There is no problem. If there is not a leash law, then no one can reasonably quibble with an off-leash dog. I will, however, quibble with someone who tries to use legally off-leash dogs in Europe as a justification for letting his or her own dog off-leash in a city with leash laws. (But, Ma! Everyone is doing it!)



Michiyo-Fir said:


> Also, some people are saying that everyone needs to stay within the laws. I think most people have crossed a street when there's no pedestrian crossing light or something like that. It's illegal here too but 90% of people still do it. They know they are at risk and could get themselves killed but since they understand and accept the risks, I don't think it's a problem.


You are right to say that jaywalking presents the most risk to the jaywalker, but the breaking of laws generally presents a risk to others as well. When you are the driver who kills the jaywalker, you may suddenly decide jaywalking _is _a problem. When I see you and your dog off-leash where you are not supposed to be, I neither understand the potential risks, nor do I accept them. You are forcing a risk upon me that I do not want.



Mr Pooch said:


> A little off topic from whats being discussed here currently (this thread has twisted and turned alot.haha) about an hour ago i was walking the dogs and as i came to the last pathway a lone dog came right in my direction,i thought "s%$*" i didnt move


_My _point is that I should be able to walk around my neighborhood without having to freeze and think "s%$8*" at the approach of an oncoming dog. Now a lone dog is clearly more frightening than an off-leash dog with its owner, but the off leash dog is also a liability because it is an unknown element. I can only know that an off-leash dog is well behaved after my encounter with it is over, which is too late to save me from the anxiety that comes from not knowing how the interaction will turn out.

Everyone who is prepared to accept the consequences of his or her actions has the right to break laws as he or she sees fit. But as someone who isn't willing to break a particular law, I have the right to hear a logical reason in defense of it being broken by someone else who may be putting me and my property at risk.


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## DragonNighthowler (Aug 12, 2009)

I know many people cross the street outside from a pedestrian cross. But how does it affect me, unless I'm the angry driver who almost ran you over?

Off-Leash dogs do affect me, tho. Like I already mentioned, if there are on-leash, and off-leash areas, to choose, and I want to choose on-leash area because I feel more tranquil walking with my pets that way.
Then why do I have to be bothered by someone's dog, who is clearly breaking the law?

I also want to choose. I want to choose whether to encounter on leash dogs, or not.

As for children... yes, I believe they should be on leash too. Actually, if I ever have children (highly unlikely, as I don't like kids at all), I'm getting a leash for it.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> my position is pretty simple.
> 
> people who don't want to deal with offleash dogs should be able to go to places where it is prohibited and expect to see NO offleash dogs.


I guess I'm going to give some suggestions to the city as well as some of our other dog owners. Because in our city EVERYWHERE is on leash except for 3 dog parks. The closest one is a 20 min drive away from me.

Also I don't understand why 1 school field is a dog off leash area and everywhere else is on leash? No schools here have fenced yards.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

I drive 30 minutes almost every day so my dogs can enjoy off-leash time at the DP, it's worth it to me..and it's safe for my dogs. I do not have to worry about the unpredictableness of my canine companions, or anyone else's for that matter.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

PappyMom said:


> I drive 30 minutes almost every day so my dogs can enjoy off-leash time at the DP, it's worth it to me..and it's safe for my dogs. I do not have to worry about the unpredictableness of my canine companions, or anyone else's for that matter.


Ours are not the safest. Lots of big dogs and some very very hyper ones.

I think it's quite confusing that some school's fields are off leash and others are not. Actually I only found out not every school field is off leash about 2 or 3 months ago. I had assumed before all school fields were off leash since we had off leash ones (actually one).

Also no where in our city are there dogs must be on leash signs. Yet we're all supposed to know it somehow...it gets pretty confusing.

I hope our city at least put up more signs to indicate on leash and off leash areas.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

FilleBelle said:


> Walk around, smell junk, roll in stuff, chew grass, sniff bushes, pee, swim. Which one of these cannot be done in your 15' by 15' yard? The swimming, obviously, unless you have a very tiny pool. Which of these cannot be done on a leash off of your property? None of them.
> 
> I too am glad I have a large enough yard for the dog to play. I did this on purpose. I already had the dog when I moved, so I found a place that suited his needs as well as my own. Next time I'm choosing a dog I will, of course, already have the place, so I will select one that suits my circumstances. Which returns me to my second question: If a particular dog (or breed) must be exercised off leash in order to be happy and healthy, why would someone who cannot legally fulfill that need due to a lack of yard, no access to a dog park, and/or leash laws obtain such a dog?
> 
> ...


Your porch? so is your front yard fenced? or is your dog tied up

Would you like to only be off a leash in your living room? to see the same stuff, over and over and over? The back yard we have, if you can even call it that. Is grass, a smal shed, nd a few bushs at the back. and some broom handles (4) I placed to use as weave poles, which dont work well due to the fact the back yard is so small.

I didnt choose this house, I moved here with my family when I was 13. we had no choice but to move here. We picked this areaa due to being a cheapo brand new house. it also has lots of woods around it where we could walk our (then) 3 dogs we had (another colle, a toy poodle and a chi/poodle mix, all at the RB now)

If I had my choice we would have the 3 acre property down the road, but being as it is almost 1 million dollars to buy (yes 1 mill for a 3 acre property with a small house on it), its a dream that wont be accomplished in Blazes life time, unless I win the lottery.




FilleBelle said:


> (Why are there dogs on the bike path?) It seems that there is a feeling of injustice here, as thought leash laws are somehow a punishment to well behaved dogs. How is walking on a leash a punishment for a well behaved dog? Why is the well behaved dog in your scenario with the wagon off-leash? Is walking at a heel something that could not be accomplished on-leash? Why break a law when it is completely unnecessary and unbeneficial to do so?


Dogs are allowed ont he bike path, its a bike/walking path, it goes through town to the lake, with out being on busy roads.

Never said its a punishment for a dog to be on a leash. Heck Blaze and I went on a hour walk today. I didnt feel like going out of my way to get to the secluded field, so I kept him on a leash the whole walk, since we were on the bike path walking, I wouldnt let him off there.

Its seems like you think that I just let him off where it is highly ppulated. I dont. I let him off in areas I either know are secluded (such as the creek trail at the bike path It is fenced on one side, only 2 ways to get in to it. its a dead straight flat walk, so you can see both exits from any where on it and a large creek runing on the other side.), or are fenced off, and I can see every which direction of who is coming near us (such as the school field)

I dont know why the dog with the wagon is offleash. I never asked, as I can tell it is one well behaved dog.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

My yard is fully fenced. It was a requirement for me when I was looking for a home because I already owned (at the time) two dogs. If I simply could not have found a place with a yard, I think I would have had to give the dogs to my parents, as I am unsure how I would have taken care of their bathroom needs when I was at work during the day if they had not had access to a yard.



Tankstar said:


> Would you like to only be off a leash in your living room? to see the same stuff, over and over and over?


The opposite of being off-leash is not being permanently confined to the living room. The opposite of being off-leash is being on-leash. I would think that anywhere one could take a dog off a leash, one could also take a dog on a leash. The only reason for the dog to see the same stuff over and over would be if its owner took it to the same places over and over...which I'm guessing many of us do, on or off leash. 

I don't believe you would ever let your dog off-leash in what you judged to be an inappropriate environment, nor did I say that I do. I noted before that "appropriate" and "legal" are not always strictly in accordance.



Tankstar said:


> I dont know why the dog with the wagon is offleash. I never asked, as I can tell it is one well behaved dog.


I don't know why, either. It sounds like an arbitrary decision to not follow city law on the part of the owner. It is good to hear that the dog was behaving well on the occasion that you saw it.

I have already confessed that I, like many others, am not terribly bothered by a little lawbreaking when it doesn't affect me. (Aren't humans awful that way?) But off-leash dogs in cities with leash laws have and do affect me. As someone who chooses to follow her city's leash laws, I believe I have the right to a logical explanation for why others choose not to, thereby putting me and my personal property at risk. 

I somehow thought if I kept asking, I might get that explanation in this thread, lol. Instead, I find I have become a broken record!


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> I somehow thought if I kept asking, I might get that explanation in this thread, lol. Instead, I find I have become a broken record!


Well some people just think it's good for a dog to have some freedom to run and play and romp as they like without being restrained to a lead. 

But you don't sound like a broken record to me. I think most arguments here make sense whether it be on leash or off leash. To be honest, I do prefer to have dogs off leash if it's possible but since there are laws and from this thread I see many people have been or are concerned that their dogs can be hurt, attacked, threatened, etc. and some dogs do have problems that can cause harm to other off leash dogs, I will not let my dog off leash anymore unless it's an off leash area or a confined space like a backyard (our laws say personal backyards are places where dogs are allowed off leash as long as they stay in the yard. Unfenced yards are also allowed to have off leash dogs providing the dogs stay within the yard). 

I don't want others to think I'm selfish for letting my dog off leash which could lead to injuries for my dog and other dogs. Believe me, I don't want anyone(dogs/cats/squirrels/whatever animals) to get hurt. I will however, contact the city to see if we can have better off leash areas like separate pens in the dog park for different sized dogs, or designated areas where it's fenced off and people can hold dog play dates if they reserve the spot, etc.


I just spoke with my friend on the phone, he has 2 well behaved Australian Shepherds. His response to on leash off leash is that we are trying to find what is natural for dogs. For example, these days many people try to feed raw which is the natural diet. Simulate lures for sighthounds, scent courses for scent dogs and even herding classes/competitions for herding dogs to try and get them to do what's natural for their species but always having a dog on leash is not natural. It's natural to let them off to roam as they want and play as they do in the wild but it can be done at dog parks. He would prefer less leash laws on parks and beaches in our city but he will follow them. Every week he travels 3 hrs to a farm just so his dogs can run free as much as they want with sheep as well. He said the dog parks can sometimes be dangerous since he's seen many attacks there but he still visits when he cannot get to the farm. He doesn't believe in dogs kept on leash all the time everyday of every year when they're outside.


Also this is my dog trainer's view on underconfident, nervous dogs. This is from when I was asking her about a very nervous/shy rescue dog.



> Get the leash off as it is your energy that may be translating to your dog and this is not a training matter though training can most definatly help build your dogs confidence which is much needed but you also need to up your socializing which means every day off leash not twice a week.


She emphasized that it's better for the emotional health of dogs to be let off leash. She does want people to do it legally though hehehe. Not by putting other dogs in danger or hurting anyone.

Here's her website. Send her an email and ask her the importance of having a dog off leash if you'd like. 
Shelley Smith


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Lol...I think the concept of treating dogs "naturally" is one that could fill an entirely new thread, so we should probably not go there.

Your reasons for having a dog off leash are lovely, but that wasn't the question. No one is claiming that dogs should never be off leash. The question was why do it illegally?

I think the reason I'm not getting an answer to that question is because there isn't one. Breaking a law can have few or no consequences, but ultimately it is breaking a law and it's very difficult to reasonably defend it.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Well some people just think it's good for a dog to have some freedom to run and play and romp as they like without being restrained to a lead.
> 
> But you don't sound like a broken record to me. I think most arguments here make sense whether it be on leash or off leash. To be honest, I do prefer to have dogs off leash if it's possible but since there are laws and from this thread I see many people have been or are concerned that their dogs can be hurt, attacked, threatened, etc. and some dogs do have problems that can cause harm to other off leash dogs, I will not let my dog off leash anymore unless it's an off leash area or a confined space like a backyard (our laws say personal backyards are places where dogs are allowed off leash as long as they stay in the yard. Unfenced yards are also allowed to have off leash dogs providing the dogs stay within the yard).
> 
> ...


I never said anything about never having a dog off leash.

There are a select few dogs that Bolo gets along with. once a week or so we drive out to a friends house who they have enormous acerage. and the dogs charge around the property and we follow them on atvs.

though...Bolo ALWAYS kills something. Her prey drive is INSANELY overdriven. its kind of annoying to always have to be prying dead or dying animals from her jaws.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> Your reasons for having a dog off leash are lovely, but that wasn't the question. No one is claiming that dogs should never be off leash. The question was why do it illegally?


Didn't someone ask why dogs need to be off leash before??? Someone said they don't see why dogs need to be off leash at all because they can do everything on a leash.

As for your question. The reason that some find it necessary to let dogs off leash illegally is because there are no safe enough places for dogs to be off leash legally. The dog parks have many uncontrollable, aggressive, excited dogs that pounce on other dogs and cause fights. There are no pens for different sized dogs. Heck one dog park even has coyotes that eat puppies and rabbits and anything that looks small enough (it's in a forest/park area). People think parks where humans are considered safe are safe for their dogs as well. But of course, if everyone did this it would just become another wild dog park. But still, some take the advantage while there still is one.



canteloupe said:


> Foyerhawk, you've been repeatedly asked what benefit you derive from not just putting a leash on your dog, but you've avoided answering.
> 
> Seriously, why is it so important that you not put a leash on your dog





FilleBelle said:


> I feel like this question has been asked several times, but never answered: Why does a dog need to be off leash to run?
> 
> To be clear, I am not advocating that dogs spend every waking moment on leashes. I am only trying to understand why there is such a strong feeling that a dog must be off a leash in order to exercise properly.


I just got the impression that some people were implying that dogs don't need to be off leash ever(not FilleBelle) since she said not every moment, especially not to exercise. Maybe I'm wrong and they're only referring to running and/or walking. I hope I'm not offending the people that said these in saying they think dogs don't need to be off leash!


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> As for your question. The reason that some find it necessary to let dogs off leash illegally is because there are no safe enough places for dogs to be off leash legally.


Which brings us back to my second question yet again: If a particular dog (or breed) must be exercised off leash in order to be happy and healthy, why would someone who cannot legally fulfill that need due to a lack of yard, no access to a dog park, and/or leash laws obtain such a dog?

Let's look at a different law: speed limits. People speed all the time, right? I go at least five miles over the speed limit on the freeway to my summer job every single day. I have never been in an accident caused by speeding, nor does going 70mph instead of 65mph cause damage to my vehicle or the freeway. But when I get pulled over by a police officer, what am I going to say? How can I possibly justify breaking this easy-to-follow rule?

As I see it, the problem is that there's no logic to illegally having a dog off-leash, so any arguments for it end up being an attempt to justify "Because I want to." One can use this "reason" to break any law one likes, but one cannot also expect much support or sympathy.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> I just got the impression that some people were implying that dogs don't need to be off leash ever, especially not to exercise. Maybe I'm wrong and they're only referring to running and/or walking. I hope I'm not offending the people that said these in saying they think dogs don't need to be off leash!


"Advocating" means "supporting." What I said in the post that you quoted was I do not support a dog being on a leash all the time. I'm not sure how that could be interpreted as an implication that dogs should be leashed all the time.

Not offended...just...confused, lol.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> "Advocating" means "supporting." What I said in the post that you quoted was I do not support a dog being on a leash all the time. I'm not sure how that could be interpreted as an implication that dogs should be leashed all the time.
> 
> Not offended...just...confused, lol.


Sorry LOL, I was just editing that. I'm not saying you were the one that said dogs don't need to be off leash but I'm pretty sure someone did say it.

And in my opinion ANY breed of dog should be let off leash to run one in a while. So unless you're telling me that everyone that lives in places with leash laws and only a few dog parks which are free for all for big dogs or very excited dogs should not be allowed to own dogs. Even if they have adequate funds, space in the house, and a small yard...

I personally believe any breed of dog should be let off leash once in a while to be happy and healthy and to have a chance to mingle with their own kind without leashes and people controlling them all the time. It may not be true but I find my dog happier when she gets to play off leash.

I'm trying to give you a reason for letting dogs off leash illegally but you're telling me that I'm making it up to justify myself. What can I say?

To put it simply(this is my thought and opinion), dog parks allow off leash dogs, some dogs get trampled and attacked in dog parks, all dogs need to be off leash sometimes to be happy, city has leash laws everywhere other than dog parks, dogs get let off leash in other places to fulfill social/mental needs.

I'm still defending that dogs don't bother me off leash in areas that are not the dog park. Even if I don't do it anymore, I'm not against other people doing it. I will warn them that some people may not like it but if they think it's alright, it's not a problem with me.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir: But no one is saying that dogs should never be allowed off-leash! What is the point of your message? To defend a point that no one else disputes?

The discussion is about having dogs off-leash specifically in places where it's illegal. Not all the time.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Michiyo

your points raise an interesting question.


im wondering if there is any relationship between the point that dog parks are unruly and somewhat crazy places and the fact they are off leash ?

here's my thought on the whole 'natural' argument.

left to their own devices...dogs would do all kinds of things we find unacceptable as owners. Killing, indiscriminate breeding, eating carrion and feces and destroying things...these things are only bad because WE don't like them...but they are 'natural'

If we should do things 'naturally'...then stick your dogs out the door and let them fend for themselves. 

but we can't do that. the way our society is set up doesn't accommodate those things. In order to keep order...dogs must be kept contained. 

owning a dog is NOT a right. its a privilege. to protect that privilege and keep people from taking away our dogs...they must be kept contained. 

that doesn't mean NEVER offleash. that means offleash in legal places.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I think dogs act like lunatics at dog parks because they are not off leash often enough, or exercised enough, and because people only run their dogs at dog parks, so the dogs are over excited nuts at them.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Foyerhawk said:


> I think dogs act like lunatics at dog parks because they are not off leash often enough, or exercised enough, and because people only run their dogs at dog parks, so the dogs are over excited nuts at them.


LOL, so you've seen Gizmo? Last night he got this big boxer to chase him up and down the fence, barking like crazy! Funny thing is, he is probably one of the most exercised Paps you'll meet. I walk him twice a day, and my fiance takes him for a run every night. Prior to going to the dog park, we hit up our town park (beautiful park google image search : http://images.google.com/images?hl=...ard park meriden CT&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi ) and we walk the whole thing, then we go to the dog park..and yet, once we get to that DP, he's a ball of fire, because nothing pleases him more in life than to run along the stupid fence and get dogs to chase him. Whatever makes him happy! LOL..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> owning a dog is NOT a right. its a privilege. to protect that privilege and keep people from taking away our dogs...they must be kept contained.
> 
> that doesn't mean NEVER offleash. that means offleash in legal places.


And a handler that can contain their dog's behavior.

I don't think dogs are being done a service when they, on a leash, walk into someone's yard to pee/poop. Or pull their handlers around on a leash to get to that yard they want to poop on.

All that does is make it look like leash laws aren't enough because I'm willing to bet they were created (at least in this area) so dogs, supposedly, won't do stuff to other people's property or public property unsupervised. 

I guess the law didn't consider the fact that a leash doesn't make a handler a better handler or make them really care about what the dog does. It just makes them make sure it's on a leash.

I still contend only the handler is the way to stop that and from what I see around here, it seems I'm right.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> And a handler that can contain their dog's behavior.
> 
> I don't think dogs are being done a service when they, on a leash, walk into someone's yard to pee/poop. Or pull their handlers around on a leash to get to that yard they want to poop on.
> 
> ...



leash laws were created to keep dogs from running amok for the purpose of protecting people.

and that's really a silly argument...because..

let me ask you a question...Which group do you think is the larger one...the people who have so called 'voice control' over their dogs or the people who can handle a leashed dog?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> leash laws were created to keep dogs from running amok for the purpose of protecting people.
> 
> and that's really a silly argument...because..
> 
> let me ask you a question...Which group do you think is the larger one...the people who have so called 'voice control' over their dogs or the people who can handle a leashed dog?



Practically speaking, it doesn't matter.

If the leashed people can't control their dogs and they act like they are off leash anyway, it doesn't really matter which group is larger because they are acting largely the same way. 

I would rather a handler with control over their dog without a leash than one that's still out of control and attached to a handler that either doesn't care or is unable to control the dog.

Having a leash shouldn't mean that the handler has no control otherwise over the dog. If that's "silly" to you, so be it.

And around here - that's what's going on. Maybe not where you live and thus it's "silly" but here - leashed dogs do this all the time.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KB you are sidestepping. it DOES matter because its an issue of SAFETY. 

two dogs, one on leash and the other off and both are behaving unruly and dangerous...which one is most likely to cause harm? .*the offleash *


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> And in my opinion ANY breed of dog should be let off leash to run one in a while. So unless you're telling me that everyone that lives in places with leash laws and only a few dog parks which are free for all for big dogs or very excited dogs should not be allowed to own dogs. Even if they have adequate funds, space in the house, and a small yard...


My question was, if a particular dog (or breed) must be off-leash in order to be happy and healthy, why would a person who cannot legally fulfill that need obtain such a dog? If the person in your example has space in the house and a yard, then this person is able to _legally _let his or her dogs off leash and therefore is irrelevant in answering the question.

Everyone is allowed to own dogs, sadly. That does not necessarily mean that dog ownership is appropriate for every person at every time in their lives. Generally when someone tells me they are unable to adequately provide for a particular dog at this time, I either advise them to choose another dog for which they CAN provide or to wait until they can provide for the dog they would prefer. I could not, in good conscience, tell a person to get a dog that they could only take care of properly by breaking the law. 



Michiyo-Fir said:


> I personally believe any breed of dog should be let off leash once in a while to be happy and healthy and to have a chance to mingle with their own kind without leashes and people controlling them all the time.


No one disagrees with you. The question is not, "Should dogs be off leash?" the question is, "Why do people let dogs off leash when it is not legal to do so?" I would also like to point out that "without people controlling them" is exactly why I am wary of off-leash dogs. 



Michiyo-Fir said:


> I'm trying to give you a reason for letting dogs off leash illegally but you're telling me that I'm making it up to justify myself. What can I say?
> 
> To put it simply(this is my thought and opinion), dog parks allow off leash dogs, some dogs get trampled and attacked in dog parks, all dogs need to be off leash sometimes to be happy, city has leash laws everywhere other than dog parks, dogs get let off leash in other places to fulfill social/mental needs.


You are not "making it up." You have simply come to a conclusion that I cannot agree with. If I understand you correctly, you are saying it is more important to own a dog than to follow the law. I do not believe this. I do not define responsible dog ownership as "Habitually breaking an easy to follow law in order to provide for my dog." 



KBLover said:


> I guess the law didn't consider the fact that a leash doesn't make a handler a better handler or make them really care about what the dog does. It just makes them make sure it's on a leash.
> 
> I still contend only the handler is the way to stop that and from what I see around here, it seems I'm right.


Your conclusions about the behavior of on-leash dogs may be based on faulty observations. I had a first year teacher come to me for advice last year. "I don't understand," she said. "The boys in my class are causing so much more trouble than the girls. Once almost every week I have to pull one of the boys out of class to talk to him about his behavior. I hardly ever have to pull out one of the girls!" I went to observe her class and saw part of the problem immediately: she had thirty students in the room and twenty of them were boys. She had poor classroom management, so none of the students was particularly well behaved, but she had more problems with males than with females because there were more males to begin with! I cannot say without seeing your local dog population if this is the case for you, but I know that it is the case here. Since there will always be badly behaved dogs, regardless of leashes, it may appear that more on-leash dogs are badly behaved simply because there are more on-leash dogs to begin with. 

It has already been mentioned several times in this thread that a leash is not a substitute for handler control and a well-behaved dog. As far as I'm concerned, a leash laws are not meant to control, they are meant to contain.

It is difficult to judge exactly how a dog would behave off a leash if you have never seen it thus. You may walk by twenty dogs a day who appear very well behaved on a leash, but whose owners have no voice control over them and are therefore dangerous or irritating when off. More likely, you walk by a few dogs that are clearly not under their owner's control, but are kept from creating mayhem by the sheer fact that they are tethered to their owner's wrists.

I saw two examples of this morning as I was walking Alvin. Twice we passed others walking their dogs, one a Boston Terrier and one a yellow Lab. Both times I did what I always do: I pulled off the sidewalk onto the strip of grass by the street, I put Alvin in a sit, and I told him to wait. Both times the other dog passed us, straining on the leash in our direction. The Boston also barked...not sure if it was viciously or playfully. If either dog had been off-leash, I have no doubt that they would have been over in Alvin's face. As it was, their owners simply kept walking and essentially hauled them away without any interaction between their dogs and mine.

I do not contend that this is ideal. In an ideal world, all dogs owners would have perfect voice control over their off-leash dogs. Knowing that this is not, nor will it ever be, the case, we have created leash laws.

So, because leashes are not successful in keeping all dogs under control all the time, shall we get rid of leashes? Because traffic lights are not successful at keeping all people from running through intersections all the time, shall we get rid of traffic lights?

If traffic lights keep only 50% of people from t-boning my vehicle as I drive through an intersection, then they are better than no lights at all. If leash laws stop only 50% of dogs that I do not want to interact with from approaching me, then they are better than not requiring leashes at all.

But this is really a whole different conversation, isn't it? I don't believe that the question at hand is, "Should there be leash laws?" I believe the question at hand is, "Why do people illegally allow their dogs off leash?"


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

But this is really a whole different conversation, isn't it? I don't believe that the question at hand is, "Should there be leash laws?" I believe the question at hand is, "Why do people illegally allow their dogs off leash?"



Good question.

The "Why" is simple; because people are ignorant, believe that they are above the law, oblivious to their surroundings, egomaniacal, arrogant, or just plain stupid.

That may be simplifying things a bit, but all of the illegally off lead dog owners can be placed into one of the categories listed.

There is a time and a place for off lead fun, but the time and the place is never in the public venue.

All of the attacks on my wifes Guides in the last 10 years have been from unleashed dogs, all in places where she should have been safe, and all of them would have been prevented if a leash had been used. None of the incidents occurred because a dog "got out" of a backyard, or through a hole in the fence, or past an open door, or because a gate wasnt latched properly. All happened in urban settings where a dog that <by law> was supposed to be on lead was not, by the choice of the "owner". I was not present for only one of the attacks, and that one was the one most severe. All the others were stopped by my proactive response: either pepper spray, physical intervention or in one case, a stun rod.
(Just as an aside, not once in the last 10 years has any of her Guides or the Guide pups we raised ever "gotten out", "got loose", or "run off". If a blind woman can keep her dogs in check, why does it seem so hard for those who have use of their sight to keep their dogs in check? Or maybe that is a question for another time.) 

Have there been attempts by dogs *on* leash to go after my wifes Guide? Certainly. That will never stop as long as there are dogs on planet earth, and stupid humans that own them. Was I ready to take action to protect her and her Guide? Yes. But, I did not have to hose down the offender or zap it in any of those incidents. Why? The simple, humble leash.

Dogs, no matter how well trained, can at times be unpredictable, (yes, even Guides) and we will never know what will "trigger" a negative response or action from them, so they must be contained and restrained to the best of our ability. A leash is a useful tool in that containment. A leash is safe, simple, cheap, and effective. When in the public venue with your dog, just use one.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

I personally would not be bothered by it as long as the dog wasn't running up to attack me or anyone. I wouldn't mind if it came up to say hello to me (although I can understand that bothers some people who are afraid of dogs, allergic to dogs, or just plain don't like dogs).


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

How would you know if a dog was running up in order to cause mischief or just running up to sniff until AFTER the interaction had occurred?

What can we do to keep every off-leash dog from "saying hello" to people who are afraid, allergic, or just plain don't like them?

A person is not generally bothered by illegal activities until those illegal activities cause harm or irritation to him or her. What could be done to ensure that illegally off-leash dogs never cause harm or irritation?


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> What can we do to keep every off-leash dog from "saying hello" to people who are afraid, allergic, or just plain don't like them?


Obviously you can't, I didn't say you could. All I said is that it would not bother ME personally. But that I can understand how it would bother SOME people. I didn't say everyone should have their dog off lead, I just said it doesn't bother ME personally. 



> A person is not generally bothered by illegal activities until those illegal activities cause harm or irritation to him or her. What could be done to ensure that illegally off-leash dogs never cause harm or irritation?


Like I said I don't mind it if the dog isn't charging to attack me. So it doesn't bother me when I see a nice dog walking off leash so I'm not going to call AC on the owner.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I don't allow my dog, leashed or not, to say hello to *anyone* unless the person invites him, and I still don't allow it until *I* also give the okay. However, that's not especially difficult, as while my dog is not timid or anything, he really doesn't give a crap about greeting anyone. He's a snob, and he's a snob that's 12 years old to boot. However, regardless, I just think it's rude to let any dog approach any stranger without express permission. 

That said, I know that clearly many careless owners do not care, and I have no ability to control their actions. I am annoyed if a dog comes to say hello to me without my permission. I am equally annoyed if the dog is on or off leash when this occurs.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Foyerhawk said:


> I think dogs act like lunatics at dog parks because they are not off leash often enough, or exercised enough, and because people only run their dogs at dog parks, so the dogs are over excited nuts at them.


I agree.

I see it all to often, which is why i dont go to the dog park, unless its during the day, during the week. I hardly ever attempt to go during the weekend. I go at the same time every day, 2pm ish. I know all the dogs who will be there for the most part, as all us regulars meet up at that time.

when I do venture there at odd times (after 5pm during the week, or on weekends) its crazy and scary to me, So I hide out in the woods lol



Smithcat said:


> The "Why" is simple; because people are ignorant, believe that they are above the law, oblivious to their surroundings, egomaniacal, arrogant, or just plain stupid.
> 
> That may be simplifying things a bit, but all of the illegally off lead dog owners can be placed into one of the categories listed.



I dont think Im above the law, Im not oblivious, Im exact opposite, as I use areas that hardly any one walks down. And if I see some one, I leash up the dog. Im not egomanical arrogant or stupid.

I let my dog offleash in areas that are safe to do so. legal or not. if its a safe secure place that I know well (I have lived in this exact area for over 10 years, so I know every path and wood very well)


Foyerhawk said:


> I don't allow my dog, leashed or not, to say hello to *anyone* unless the person invites him, and I still don't allow it until *I* also give the okay. However, that's not especially difficult, as while my dog is not timid or anything, he really doesn't give a crap about greeting anyone. He's a snob, and he's a snob that's 12 years old to boot. However, regardless, I just think it's rude to let any dog approach any stranger without express permission.
> 
> That said, I know that clearly many careless owners do not care, and I have no ability to control their actions. I am annoyed if a dog comes to say hello to me without my permission. I am equally annoyed if the dog is on or off leash when this occurs.


Exavtly Im the same as you. I dont like dogs just approching Blaze and I, on or offleash. I dont allow him to do it. and I dont tolerate other dogs to do it. On or offleash. Unless the owner and I speak first, then we introcude our dogs.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I don't believe I'm above the law...I just don't think I have to follow it! Lol...

I guess the difference in opinion comes down to whether or not one thinks just laws should be obeyed simply because they are just laws. I do believe this. I believe even more strongly that they should be obeyed when they are easy to obey and when NOT obeying them provides no logical benefit or may, in fact, present a safety hazard.

I'm going to go ahead and get out of this conversation. I've enjoyed the heated discussion, but no one has added anything new for a couple of pages, so it's probably time to let it go!


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Me too. 

My conclusion is that I was inconsiderate to other when I let my dogs off leash to play but that man with the poodle was also very rude and inconsiderate as his dog did pin down one of ours and bite him before. 

We actually saw that same dog again today while our dogs were playing in the tennis court. Ours didn't care about his or look at his dog and his dog stared at ours for a while but was pulled away by the owner. I think he doesn't care as long as our dogs do not go close to each other. Our tennis courts have huge fences so it's not a threat to either side.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

FilleBelle said:


> I don't believe I'm above the law...I just don't think I have to follow it! Lol...
> 
> I guess the difference in opinion comes down to whether or not one thinks just laws should be obeyed simply because they are just laws. I do believe this. I believe even more strongly that they should be obeyed when they are easy to obey and when NOT obeying them provides no logical benefit or may, in fact, present a safety hazard.
> 
> !


Not that I dont thnk I have to obey the law. I do in places where a saftey hazard can occour. Ou in the woods (which is a 80 acre field) is not dangerous to Blaze or I. Its a field. a old corn field. Nothing in it. We go there to Play ball, the road is about a 300 foot walk behind us, No saftey issue. No cares can get in there at all (as the perimeter is surrounded by a thin wall of trees, well thin compared to the size of the field)


I bet people in this thread jay walk. and drive above the speed limit as well, even if its only 5 or 10 over. its still illegal. I bet people here also break for balls flying in to the road, or a squrrial also, illegal. I bet even more some people on this thread have or have had cats who they let wander outside. illegal. Lots of things we do in life break the law at some point. Its not like I go out with a gun on my hip and rob stores, Or even play loud music past 11pm, or let Blaze bark for 20mins straight. Or even have a beer before going home after haveing a drink with a friend (at least here it is illegal to have a full drink of any sort before driving. when before you were allowed one beer) we go to a empty field, where no one is, and if there was I would see them coming long before my dog would even notice them (which wouldnt matter as he wouldnt approch a stranger)

Rules are rules and laws are laws. But there are times when it is safe to"break" them and live how you feel like living. anf if im a iggnorent bitch oh well. what I do with my dog has no impact on any one, person, dog, cat or rabbit. He doesnt bother any one, ignores people. And other animals. We do so safley and out of other peoples way. and if you guys dont like it. oh well. I really couldnt care to much.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Tankstar said:


> Not that I dont thnk I have to obey the law. I do in places where a saftey hazard can occour. Ou in the woods (which is a 80 acre field) is not dangerous to Blaze or I. Its a field. a old corn field. Nothing in it. We go there to Play ball, the road is about a 300 foot walk behind us, No saftey issue. No cares can get in there at all (as the perimeter is surrounded by a thin wall of trees, well thin compared to the size of the field)
> 
> 
> I bet people in this thread jay walk. and drive above the speed limit as well, even if its only 5 or 10 over. its still illegal. I bet people here also break for balls flying in to the road, or a squrrial also, illegal. I bet even more some people on this thread have or have had cats who they let wander outside. illegal. Lots of things we do in life break the law at some point. Its not like I go out with a gun on my hip and rob stores, Or even play loud music past 11pm, or let Blaze bark for 20mins straight. Or even have a beer before going home after haveing a drink with a friend (at least here it is illegal to have a full drink of any sort before driving. when before you were allowed one beer) we go to a empty field, where no one is, and if there was I would see them coming long before my dog would even notice them (which wouldnt matter as he wouldnt approch a stranger)
> ...


I understand the point you are making but, I've never heard of breaking for a squirrel being illegal. And I know its not illegal to let your pet cat roam outside. At least not in my state.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Tankstar said:


> Not that I dont thnk I have to obey the law. I do in places where a saftey hazard can occour. Ou in the woods (which is a 80 acre field) is not dangerous to Blaze or I. Its a field. a old corn field. Nothing in it. We go there to Play ball, the road is about a 300 foot walk behind us, No saftey issue. No cares can get in there at all (as the perimeter is surrounded by a thin wall of trees, well thin compared to the size of the field)
> 
> 
> I bet people in this thread jay walk. and drive above the speed limit as well, even if its only 5 or 10 over. its still illegal. I bet people here also break for balls flying in to the road, or a squrrial also, illegal. I bet even more some people on this thread have or have had cats who they let wander outside. illegal. Lots of things we do in life break the law at some point. Its not like I go out with a gun on my hip and rob stores, Or even play loud music past 11pm, or let Blaze bark for 20mins straight. Or even have a beer before going home after haveing a drink with a friend (at least here it is illegal to have a full drink of any sort before driving. when before you were allowed one beer) we go to a empty field, where no one is, and if there was I would see them coming long before my dog would even notice them (which wouldnt matter as he wouldnt approch a stranger)
> ...





I don't speed....because I don't drive. So no braking issues, DnD(which is supremely stupid!) or any thing like that. Even if I had a car id avoid those things.


I don't jaywalk. I walk about 75% of any commuting I do and traffic can get ugly. its dangerous.

My cats are allowed outside either on leash or in their playpens. never free roaming. 

and I never let my dog illegally offleash. I could. we often go to the park in the dead quiet of night to walk and the place is deserted. I don't because a. its illegal and b.in the past 3 years, there's been two encounters with offleash dogs at those times. that's too much of a risk.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I don't speed....because I don't drive. So no braking issues, DnD(which is supremely stupid!) or any thing like that. Even if I had a car id avoid those things.
> 
> 
> I don't jaywalk. I walk about 75% of any commuting I do and traffic can get ugly. its dangerous.
> ...


I'm just being silly but isn't it illegal to be in any park after dusk? It is here.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

no because the park I go to is privately owned by the living complex. residents are permitted use anytime they please.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no because the park I go to is privately owned by the living complex. residents are permitted use anytime they please.


nice )
Ours closes at 10


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I will say this though...I used to break a lot of laws...when I was younger I was an outright criminal.

perhaps that gives me a different perspective.

there's really no fundamental difference in my eyes between disobeying little laws and disobeying big laws. in either case you are doing a very not cool thing..

making the assumption that you are qualified to make judgements about other people's safety. We have lawmakers to do that. 

the only time I would agree with breaking the law is when the law is unjust and endangers people.


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## KarliMom (Jan 7, 2009)

Karli is always on her leash unless we are at the dogpark because her prey drive is to strong and she has no recall . If other dogs are around that are leashed you are asking for trouble leting your dog off leash . If you came near us I would be so angry .


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Hmmm...there is another thread going on here about a dog without tags, tattoos or chips that got spooked, ran off and now is missing.

I cant help but wonder if a leash would have prevented it from happening........


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## Hiaja (Aug 15, 2008)

Well it sounds like the poodle REALLY wants to play! He may accidenty hurt one of your dogs but sounds like a sweetie so to answer his question about letting his dog off leash again I would say sure, go ahead! My hope is that he would work with his dog and you with yours so they could play safely and nicely.

Personally if they are well adjusted, friendly dogs it wouldn't bother me at all to see dogs off leash in a safe environment. (Not running on the streets) I would be a little concerned about getting in trouble and would probably try and stick to the parks where dogs are allowed off leash.

I actually dream of a world where no dog needs to be onleash, there leash is you, your commands and their loyalty to you, that's my Utopia.^^


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I will say this though...I used to break a lot of laws...when I was younger I was an outright criminal.


I knew it! Just another criminal with a Pit Bull...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

lol Fillebelle

except when i was a criminal

i didnt have a pit bull, my family had english setters


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

My girls are allowed off-leash at the park, but I think I am ending that until I can train them to have a better recall. Plus someone's dog with kennel cough ran up to my dog and gave her kennel cough too, which is frustrating in itself. She is vaccinated but the vaccine doesn't prevent all strains.


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