# I Hate To Heel



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I really, really do. 

So when Marsh's first obedience class with me (ever? I have no idea, so might as well be ever) is *20 minutes of heeling* I am not impressed. Especially when 

a) He can't heel at all, because we've never worked on it
b) We are told to keep the leash tight to teach the dogs where heel position is (most of the dogs are on choke chains, so how does this make sense?!)
c) I am told to push his butt down we he sits crooked

He is sitting crooked because I inadvertently taught him that "S-I-T" means "turn to face me and put your butt on the ground." He is not looking for his treat. He is actually great at not staring at the treat. He's trying to find eye contact. He is being a good boy. And besides, I am not going to push down on his butt. It makes him sad.

I do not go to class to learn how to train my dog. I know how to do that. Well, ish. I have a plan, at any rate. Class is not where I go to fix problems, simply because the way I solve problems is not very compatible to a class where you heel in a circle for twenty minutes.

I do try to keep my arrogance in check and not be disruptive to the class. But the instructor also has Tollers so he's paying special attention to us and wants us to do well and tries to help, but I'm flustered and defensive and I'm pretty sure I was super rude. :/

Blurgh. I hate heeling. This is why Gatsby can retrieve and down on recall, but he can't turn left.


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## aBlueDog (Feb 14, 2011)

Its ok to disagree with the trainer. It really is. I do it all the time, Im much more of a positive reinforcement and she is a weird combo of old school and PR.

20 mins is a LOOOONG time in a dogs mind, they are probably bored out of their minds hence the need to pull and break heel position... 

Look on YouTube for Tab289 and Kikopup. They both offer positive ways to teach heel with out risking damaging the relationship you have with your dog. Just work on it outside of class


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Marge sits crooked on halts, too, and the teacher told me to bring my hand out as I'm halting and feed her there, so that way the treat is right in front of her nose (I of course vary whether or not I have treats in my hand, though). Also working up against a wall helps, as I'm sure you know.

It sounds like the bigger issue is your instructor, not heeling itself


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If I had to heel for 20 minutes I'd go mental.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Exactly. The idea that classes are still taught this way (I have been in another class that was structured similarly, and suspect it's the sort of default setting) is mind boggling. On one hand I understand spending so much time on heeling, if you're planning on going on to compete in AKC obedience (which I am with Marsh), it's kind of important. And pretty much all of Novice is heeling. But just walking in circles when the dogs are clueless is just practicing incorrect behavior and hoping the dogs figure it out, which is sloppy training. 

And it is BORING. 

I really just need to buy a training building and set up shop. I could do it so much _better!_


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

You do know that if YOU hate to heel, inevitably, YOUR DOG will hate to heel as well ? Try to find _some_ level of joy in it ... somehow ... somewhere, .. and build upon that.

I disagree with the tight lead to teach heel position. IMO that's not teaching, that's dictating, and I suppose it'll work .. but perhaps this is also an area where both party's desire is being siphoned off. A breakdown into one or two steps forward at the most, coupled with a high initial RoR for correct position would be my preferred approach / advice, to start to re-generate some desire. Also if future classes require the same extensive heeling sessions, I would be tempted to inject some vigorous play every few minutes or so, ... I'd temporarily heel right out the door into the parking lot if I had to, to accomplish this, before returning to heeling once again.

As far as rectifying crooked sits on halts, as mentioned you can work closely against a wall, and you can also try feeding 'slightly to the left and behind' the dog's head, as this will have a tendency for him to scoot his butt to the right into the correct position. A number of reps of that, and a well-timed jackpot at breakthough, will hopefully help.

For the pushing the butt down or even sideways into position, that does little except to invoke opposition reflex in most cases, so I'd forego that idea as well. Rather, work on shaping and capturing a fast and square sit.



Overall, I understand that it's very difficult for people to find classes which are _completely_ beneficial. For the most part you have to learn to get in ... find the stuff of value ... and get out, .. kinda the same as you'd do with reading material, kwim ?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

He's more than just crooked, he's popping he butt out 90* so he's perpendicular. The problem is that he well and truly has no idea what I'm asking him to do. He's NEVER been asked to be inline with me, and since most of the work we've done has been building retrieve drive for field, most of what has been rewarded is dancing around in front of me waiting for something to be thrown.

I've been working a little bit on trying to get him into position. We've done a little bit on brick pivoting and today I told him to sit, I put myself into heel position, marked and chucked a ball for him. My goal is to do a little bit of work every day and hope he gets the idea well enough to go to class on Tuesday. With Gatsby, who heels well enough for Rally, I just fedfedfed in position, but that ended up breaking him for agility; he'll blind cross me if I put him on the right. Once we get going I can enjoy it, and Gatsby seems to like it enough that I think he could actually get an RN, but I still hate teaching it, partly because I don't know a really good way.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

If he has never been taught to be in line with you, it sounds like he needs a foundations class or something. My club offers Attention classes as a pre-requisite for the Show Ready Novice class. It's probably a bit below Marsh's (I keep wanting to type Marge!! lol) level but teaches the beginnings of heeling and all of the other exercises. IMO (and admittedly I am still very new to obedience) you should be taking a few heeling steps and releasing with food or a toy, and working halts separately with the pivot games and stuff.

A good teacher is really key.. I was petrified out of my mind about obedience classes, but I agree about 90% with my instructor's methods and that's made me really enjoy it. She is very heavily into motivation and +R stuff with a tiny bit of punishment but is VERY VERY in-tune with how the dogs are feeling (never punishes stress/fear for example).


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

In our formal obedience classes they expect us to lure the dog into heel position, 'try taking 2 steps forward' then 'try taking 6 steps forward' and then they expect us to heel for the rest of the class. Everyone else drags their dog along, and I kept stopping to get her back into position, trying to make it all fun and pleasant for her, but of course we then fall massively behind everyone else.

So I decided to not go to the class for a couple of weeks to work on heel at our own pace. I bought a book called "Clicker training for obedience" by Morgan Spector, which is really good.

He recommends not starting out with heeling for a few steps and then build duration on the perfect heel like most people say to do, but rather to start with a really loose control area, which is next to you and slightly forward (because forging is easier to correct than lagging) and being really relaxed about automatic sits and perfect position and all that, and simply build duration on left side walking and make it a rewarding place to be. I have started doing this with my dog, and she is responding really well to it, I do it in the house and also on and off during our walks, and I just don't care if she's too far away or too far forward or whether she is sitting etc. Of course you can't let them slack off too much, but it should be really loose and easy for the dog to do. Once you have built a really long duration (say like the whole walk) then you can start fine tuning the heel.

I figure if I just get left side walking in place then that is good enough to continue with the class.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also I don't know about your area, but around here a couple of the training schools offer a whole multi-week class just on leash-walking. I haven't taken one so I suspect they're more geared towards pet owners who don't want to get dragged around than obedience, but you never know what's out there, maybe it's worth a try trying to find one.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> I really, really do.
> 
> So when Marsh's first obedience class with me (ever? I have no idea, so might as well be ever) is *20 minutes of heeling* I am not impressed. Especially when
> 
> ...


20 minutes of heeling??? Gahhh....
Tag and I started heel position when he was around 4 months; by 5 months he could heel about 10 steps (on a good day). At almost two, he can heel well for about one minute. If we were asked to heel for 20 minutes, we'd both be epic fails...
I agree with aBlueDog. Work on it outside of class and break it into very small pieces (halt is completely different than heel, kwim?) I don't know how many dogs can successfully heel for 20 minutes, but I've yet to meet one. Competition heeling is hard work...


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> He's more than just crooked, he's popping he butt out 90* so he's perpendicular. The problem is that he well and truly has no idea what I'm asking him to do. He's NEVER been asked to be inline with me, and since most of the work we've done has been building retrieve drive for field, most of what has been rewarded is dancing around in front of me waiting for something to be thrown.
> 
> I've been working a little bit on trying to get him into position. We've done a little bit on brick pivoting and today I told him to sit, I put myself into heel position, marked and chucked a ball for him. My goal is to do a little bit of work every day and hope he gets the idea well enough to go to class on Tuesday. With Gatsby, who heels well enough for Rally, I just fedfedfed in position, but that ended up breaking him for agility; he'll blind cross me if I put him on the right. Once we get going I can enjoy it, and Gatsby seems to like it enough that I think he could actually get an RN, but I still hate teaching it, partly because I don't know a really good way.


A lot of dogs learn to look for "front" position in a sit. Also, be aware of how you are delivering treats (if they let you use them). If you are feeding across your body, you're encouraging crooked. Feed with the hand closest to the dog in the position you are looking for. If he's not there, keep the treat there so he has to get in approximate position to find it. Tight leashes encourage pulling.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Tight leashes also encourage the dog's head to be at your side and his butt to be swung way out.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

This is the manner I like heel work to be conducted.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I cannot watch the video until Monday.. but I will comment on this. Heeling should be FUN. It is not a drill. You don't even teach the sit at halt to start.. and the lure is your friend. This luring the dog to the correct position takes some thinking on your part and rotating your hand so that the dog does maintain the correct position in a left turn,l right turn and the about. Getting a dog to come out of a sit and take a single step and keeping his attention on you (shoulder, face, knee whatever spot you have trained the dog to look at) is a huge accomplishment. 

It takes 2 years to put a competition heel on a dog. I have Atka so she actually stands on her hind legs to heel.. she is so excited about it. We do a lot of releases STILL and she is 4 years old. 20 minutes in a beginner class is nutz. Heck.. 20 minutes in an advanced class is nutz.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

That video was terrific. Am going to try it with poca who has been trained to think "heel" means rush over and sit facing mom at a 45 degree angle on the left. When no treat appears, butt hop to a 20 degree angle and stare at mom with a WTH look. Then walk away. Love how she used 
the board.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

winniec777 said:


> That video was terrific. Am going to try it with poca who has been trained to think "heel" means rush over and sit facing mom at a 45 degree angle on the left. When no treat appears, butt hop to a 20 degree angle and stare at mom with a WTH look. Then walk away. Love how she used
> the board.


I tried it but the only thing I had handy for the "square" was the rug I've been using for "go to your mat" exercises... so Squash just laid down on the mat and wouldn't budge, LOL. Kind of dumb of me in retrospect. I can see a trip to get a square of plywood or something is in order for today.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

LOL! Poca does the same thing with any rug or carpet handy. She generalized "go to your rug" pretty quickly. Now she flops all around until she lands on the one that will make the treat appear - its pretty funny. Not a great reflection on me as a trainer, tho.


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