# When can we stop crating



## donedeal (Jan 28, 2009)

My dog hates her crate....we have to drag her into it in the morning before work. 

Here's the full story:

When we first got her, we confined her to a room in the house, she began destructive chewing and tore up the carpet by the door. We began crating her. Followed all the stuff I've read about crating (safe place, never scolding in the crate, leaving treats, leaving door open when were home, start by leaving her in there for periods of time while were home, keep arrivals/departures low key, plenty of exercise/walks when we are home). She hates it and she hates being confined as well. She exhibits signs of separation anxiety and we are working on that as whole. 

We work 8 hours M-F, and come home to let her out for a lunch potty break. But its a pain getting her in there and she's way too excited when we come home. 

So I guess my question is, do some dogs behave better with free rein of the house while owners are gone? We don't want more things destroyed, nor do we want her to hate life in the crate. Suggestions?


----------



## Baxter31 (Dec 17, 2008)

You might have tried this already but... leave special treats in the crate that she gets nowhere else. Like a Kong with yummy stuff inside. Something she really loves and she ONLY gets it when she's in the crate so that makes it a special treat (as opposed to other toys that are around the house).

How old is she and how long have you had her? Some dogs go through the destructive puppy stage quickly and soon can be trusted with run of the house. Other dogs need much more time before they are given that.

Also, I would recommend a big, long walk in the morning before work. That will tire her out and she'll take a long nap while waiting for you to come home for lunch.


----------



## chasse (Jan 28, 2009)

According to Brian Kilcommons and Sara Wilson's 2005 book, "My Smart Puppy" most sporting breeds require 1 1/2 to 2 years crated (larger breeds take longer to mature and sporting breeds are typically larger), some other breeds can start at a year, plus or minus. They say "Either way, six to nine months is too young for most dogs. Don't rush this part!" "They will find all sorts of interesting games if allowed like 'What's in the couch?' or '101 things to do with a roll of toilet paper'."


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Just think about your home, clothes, walls etc. There are a number of questions, How wealthy are you? (Home repairs) How patient are you? (some people dump their dogs after damage to stuff) Do you have a good Vet?(sometimes dogs get sick on stuff they swallow while chewing) How lucky are you? (some people like to gamble) On the other hand your dog does not like crate. You do not like the difficulty of getting dog in crate. With me it was a very simple decision as life is tough, not people or dogs are guaranteed a perfect life. I always crate my dogs. This is always an owner's personal decision to make.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

chasse said:


> According to Brian Kilcommons and Sara Wilson's 2005 book, "My Smart Puppy" most sporting breeds require 1 1/2 to 2 years crated....


My Golden was just past his 2nd birthday before he was allowed to sleep out of his crate at night. He still goes in if he has to be left alone in the house for more than a brief period. Think about electrical cords. A dog chewing live electrical cords can not only kill himself, but he can burn your house down to boot.

You can make the crate an attractive place for the dog, but not if he's only put in when he is to be left alone for 8 hours.


----------



## ronniechia (Jan 29, 2009)

I have two Shelties, and have never crate them when they were puppies. Yes, I have a few things damaged but that is part of having dogs. We fenced them off in the kitchen which has a toilet when we go out. We rather they are able to roam around the place.


----------



## donedeal (Jan 28, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> You can make the crate an attractive place for the dog, but not if he's only put in when he is to be left alone for 8 hours.


Do you suggest she be crated while we are home and/or at night too? I feel like that is such a long time to be in the crate, no?


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

donedeal said:


> Do you suggest she be crated while we are home and/or at night too? I feel like that is such a long time to be in the crate, no?


Not all the time, but you need to break the association with being left alone. My dog is a retriever, which means he'd rather fetch than eat (your dog may have different motivators). I started throwing a bumper into his crate and immediately calling him back to me. In + out = big reward. 

Associate a command with going into the crate, and lose the object. In + out (on command) = big reward. Eventually, I added a very brief "stay" to the sequence.

So going in the crate--and staying inside with the door open--became a positive activity before I made it mandatory. Gradually make his stay in the crate longer and longer. What going in the crate should signal is that all systems, with the exception of primary life support, should shut down until further notice. This is easier if you don't have to undo a negative association, before you create a positive association, but it is still quite do-able.


----------



## donedeal (Jan 28, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> This is easier if you don't have to undo a negative association, before you create a positive association, but it is still quite do-able.


Given that we have definately created a negative association to the crate, would you recommend following the same actions you stated above, or implementing something else? Thanks!


----------



## armymil (Feb 7, 2009)

I am not dog expert and I am looking for the same answer. I wanted to provide some feedback on my German Shepherd Dog. He is almost 5 months old coming up but I have tested the waters with him. I like the 101 things about the roll of TP as mentioned previously because my dog has discovered 2 rolls until his smart master shut the bathroom door.

However, just in my experiment, you really have to judge your dog. I think it was mentioned before as well, but is your dog the kind of dog that is independent or dependent and follows you around faithfully most of the time? My dog follows me. I have taken him to an open field and let him run without a leash to see what he would do and have kept doing that. He doesnt go too far off unless there is another dog and he wants to say hello. But my point is, my dog is the kind of dog that seems to show that he wants to be around me. My mom comes over and watches my dog while I am at work but when I get home he is so happy. So I tried an experiment.

I didnt crate him one night and I slept on the pull out bed in couch. <Its comfy enough.> He acted up. He was only 3 months old anyhow. He liked sleeping there but he moved a lot which kept me up. I tried it a few more times but I dropped the idea but later came back with an idea to just sleep on the top of the cushions to see what would happen. We also have a big pillow dog bed that he likes to lay on and/or hump when he is in that mood. I laid it beside the bed and he sleeps on it each time. After not sleeping on my bed at least 2-3 weeks now, he got use to sleeping on this pillow bed. I can point to it, and he will get on it and sleep all night. He might walk around and sleep in a different spot if he gets too cold from the fan but he doesnt relieve himself <that I am aware of XD > Because I am a light sleeper too, when he gets by the door, he makes a slight whimper, and rattles the door handle a little and I jump up and let him outside. Then he comes back in and sleeps. 

Again, I think I have a good breed and a smart dog who is dependent. Your dog might be different. I also train my dog too so he has some respect for me. 

I guess the big question overall is, "does you dog let you know when he needs to go outside uncrated?" Train him on that at least and I think you can start working with him out of crate. 

This example only has worked at night. When I was just outside working on a project, I had an empty box that he shredding up because he wanted to get to me but couldnt. He was also teething too and was in a pain when touching his gums during this time. He couldnt see me but I am very sure he could hear me talking. I have to work with him more for the day time but night time seems to be a breeze. I also puppy proofed my living room and he doesnt seem to have any notice to electrical cords although now i have apple bitter now too. I will try to leave him alone in the day time for 10-20 minutes and see what he does later and I will try to report it on here.

Oh and also, my dog did go through teething stage. It was really bad early on. I am having a vacation right now. He bites every now and then but it is a "soft bite" and I wont scold him for it since he knows not to bite hard. I am not ready for the adolescence stage though.

Anyhow, sorry about the ramble. I typed as things came up in my head. I am dead tired but wanted to share my story. Maybe someone googling and reading this, it will help them if you already have your answer.


----------



## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

donedeal said:


> Do you suggest she be crated while we are home and/or at night too? I feel like that is such a long time to be in the crate, no?


He should be crated or confined in some way such as an ex-pen or dog-proofed room whenever you can't supervise him. Better to be confined in some way than risk major injury or worse because he happens to get into the wrong thing.

To associate the crate with something positive start feeding him in the crate (with the door open). If need be you can start out with the food just inside the crate near the door and gradually move it back until he has to go in to eat it. You can also lure him into the crate at various times of day with a really yummy (to him) irresistable treat. Once he's in the crate close the door and give him the treat through the back (or back side) of the crate. Praise him, then open the door and release him. Sometimes release him immediately as in the previous sentence and at others wait varying lengths of time before releasing him, but only if he's quiet. If he's acting up wait for him to settle down first before releasing. Reward and praise for entering and behaving in the crate but never for coming out. And keep your attitude towrds crating confident and upbeat. Dogs definitely pick up on our attitudes.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well, you believe there are a lot of good things going on with your dog. I will fight for your right to believe whatever makes you feel good. You are still dealing with a dog that will never be smarter than a 3 year old child. You mention your 5 month old pup does not want to leave you when you turn it loose, of course he doesn't he is a puppy. Please come back when he reaches the teen age years as you could be in for a big shock. I am wondering what you do to make your puppy respect you but I suppose that's none of my business. 
With the crating, I think a Clint Eastwood movie quote covers it all. "Are you feeling lucky today punk" The punk does not refer to you it's just his quote if I remember correctly.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

It really depends on the dog. Lizzie was trustworthy at 5 months to be loose- but then teenagerdom hit and she discovered counters.... (Yes, this is a 10 pound dog.) She's crated. 

Mal is loose in the guest room (mostly dog proofed- there's furniture and a bed in there, but no cords, which are his favorite thing to chew IF he's going to chew something. He's going to be 3 this summer and he's 99% of the way there- if he chewed anything OTHER than cords, I'd just leave him loose, but it's specifically USB cables that he has a taste for (he doesn't mess with actual power cables, but he's chomped THREE USB cables....weirdo.) Kaylee has been staying uncrated since we moved in in October (she was 18 months) and Rittie hasn't been crated since I got her except for a few minutes here or there. 

It just really, really depends on your dog. I know some dogs that are STILL not trustworthy loose well into middle age.


----------



## armymil (Feb 7, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Well, you believe there are a lot of good things going on with your dog. I will fight for your right to believe whatever makes you feel good. You are still dealing with a dog that will never be smarter than a 3 year old child. You mention your 5 month old pup does not want to leave you when you turn it loose, of course he doesn't he is a puppy. Please come back when he reaches the teen age years as you could be in for a big shock. I am wondering what you do to make your puppy respect you but I suppose that's none of my business.
> With the crating, I think a Clint Eastwood movie quote covers it all. "Are you feeling lucky today punk" The punk does not refer to you it's just his quote if I remember correctly.


Someone is having a bad day. Perhaps if you think so negative of dogs, maybe you should visit the anti-dog forum? Otherwise, as a senior member, I would figure you would be more positive towards the situations and give better suggestions. I take it you are probably just a kid or maybe one at heart. Thanks for your comments though.


----------



## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

> Well, you believe there are a lot of good things going on with your dog. I will fight for your right to believe whatever makes you feel good. You are still dealing with a dog that will never be smarter than a 3 year old child. You mention your 5 month old pup does not want to leave you when you turn it loose, of course he doesn't he is a puppy. Please come back when he reaches the teen age years as you could be in for a big shock. I am wondering what you do to make your puppy respect you but I suppose that's none of my business.
> With the crating, I think a Clint Eastwood movie quote covers it all. "Are you feeling lucky today punk" The punk does not refer to you it's just his quote if I remember correctly





armymil said:


> Someone is having a bad day. Perhaps if you think so negative of dogs, maybe you should visit the anti-dog forum? Otherwise, as a senior member, I would figure you would be more positive towards the situations and give better suggestions. I take it you are probably just a kid or maybe one at heart. Thanks for your comments though.


LOL......yeah wvasko, you grumpy old coot!...its not like you have decades of dog training under your belt or anything


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

armymil said:


> However, just in my experiment, you really have to judge your dog.





armymil said:


> Someone is having a bad day. Perhaps if you think so negative of dogs, maybe you should visit the anti-dog forum?


I don't think wvasko is saying anything more than what you suggested. If someone judges to the side of caution, even if stated in a not-so-serious manner, how is that not one opinion to consider? If we all go around sugar coating our experiences there's not going to be much room for discussing alternatives.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't believe there is anything negative, I actually was being positive by telling OP the truth about dogs/pups in general. Many pups/dogs are dumped at the local shelters after running loose in home too early and eating through a wall or a new couch etc. If you have any experience with dogs smarter than a 3 yr old child please share your thoughts. I notice you are new member, do a search about the term teen-age years of the dog when they turn from sweet to outrageous. I did not say that was a bad thing or a bad dog, I just said that it's gonna happen.

Pugmom
I know, I'm such a grouch

CP
Thank you as I was trying to be of assistance to OP

Armymil
Thank you so much as it has been a very long time since somebody called me a kid, I actually have been called young at heart though but even that was a long time ago.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

We had a couple who brought two young shih tzus to the first two sessions of intro obedience. They wanted to help their dogs be better behaved while they are gone to work and be more obedient in general. There immediate problems are that the dogs are getting on to the dining room table and scratching the surface while they are gone to work for 8-10 hours per day.

Ok, so we start with sit, heel and sit-stay the first day. The trainer showed themhow to use martingale collars and do a proper correction. The couple agreed to the martingales but by the end of the second session decided that they just couldn't do a "pop and release" correction because it was too cruel to their dogs. They told the instructor that they got the dogs so they could dress them up and carry them around in little bags. But they didn't think such small dogs could make such a mess of their home.

As a group (we often sit in a circle before class discussing our current issues and possible solutions) we suggested that they crate the dogs and have someone come in midday to play with the dogs or doggy daycare. They thought crating was cruel and having someone else play with their dogs would give the dogs someone else to be attached to. We suggested gating the dogs in their family room which has a doggy door to the yard for potty purposes. They said they tried that but the dogs were destroying everything in the family room, they assumed the dogs were bored with just one room of the house as their playpen. So at that point they gave the dogs full run of the house. Now they have total destruction in every room and the dogs do not use the doggy door any longer for eliminating outside...they spend an hour every day cleaning up inside.

They have been missing for the last few classes and I asked the instructor what happened to "my lttle buddies" (they really are cute littles buggers!). She told me that the owners did not want to "control" their dogs (owners' words) and that correcting them with the "pop and release" was cruel to them so they forfeited their fees and quit the class.

Two of my dogs are 9 years old and they are still crated at night and when I leave the house for more than a walk down the driveway for mail. My dogs are small. But if they have to pee, they will do it in the house. But they will not do it in the crate and I never crate them for longer than reasonable periods of time. My dogs ride home in a crate from the first time they are picked up from the breeder. In fact the breeder we use will not release a dog to anyone who does not bring a crate. The first couple of nights I will smear a bit of peanut butter on the back wall of the crate to get them to go into the crate. After that, I pick up the dog if I have to, to put them in the crate. 

The crate is for their safety. You wouldn't leave a 2 year old child unsupervised for any length of time in a separate room or leave them home alone to wander into dangerous territory. So I won't leave my dogs to accidentally chew on or ingest something harmful.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

armymil said:


> Someone is having a bad day. Perhaps if you think so negative of dogs, maybe you should visit the anti-dog forum? Otherwise, as a senior member, I would figure you would be more positive towards the situations and give better suggestions. I take it you are probably just a kid or maybe one at heart. Thanks for your comments though.


Wvasco is correct on several points, an adult dogs intelligence IS that of a three year old. Your pup is out of control and you're fooling yourself by thinking it's not and you NEED to take some leadership and instill some manners NOW before he becomes a rowdy teenager.

I can't link to my favorite threads I. The training forum because I'm replying from my Iphone at work. Look at the training forum and print up NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free), Doggy Zen and in first time owners for The Bite Stops Here. A dog should NEVER be allowed to mouth or bite UNLESS being trained for bite work and then there Are very strict rules.


----------



## DoubleDaxiTrouble (Feb 5, 2009)

It sounds like Seperation Anxiety. There are a number of exercises you can do to help your dog relax in the crate, and also to trust that you are coming back for her. Do you ever have her in her crate when you are home? I used to keep my dog's crates in common areas of the house so that they could spend time in their crates while we were home, so they would not automatically associate their crate with your leaving.


----------



## armymil (Feb 7, 2009)

Yo wvasko. 

Its all good man. Let me apologize for my response. I was upset because on how I read your message. If you read the message, it can be interpreted in a negative sense. "I am wondering what you do to make your puppy respect you but I suppose that's none of my business." and "make my day punk" whether you meant it harsh or not. My mind over looked the minor explanations. I did reread it. The “what you do with your puppy” answer did anger me the most which probably made me over look everything else.

I know a lot of people who get a dog, then stop caring for it once it leaves its puppy stage. It becomes to destructive and this or that. I am sure you (wvasko) or others have gave support to someone and basically told them the issue they were having was due to the way the owners were behaving. It was not the dogs fault for doing (fill in the issue).

When you said “I am wondering what you do to make your puppy respect you but I suppose that's none of my business,” the reason I got upset is because I work so hard at not becoming one of those kind of people. I read extensively on German Shepherd dogs and didnt go to dog parks or puppy classes until he reached 4 months old due to fears of catching an illness. I stayed current as close as I could for the shots. I try to make time to train him everyday but sometimes he is too tired because I take my dog to a daycare during the day M-F or have someone come over and spend most of the day with him while I am at work and college. On the weekends, I spend most of the time with him whether at a dog park, or playing in the house on a cold day. 

Instead of not answering back to your response, I wanted to let you know why I was upset and show you where I was coming from. To me, he is part of my family and I took it personally.

I also know about the teenage years and thats why I made the comment, I am not looking forward to when he reaches adolescence. I try to carry a high standard for my dog and am proud when he does what I want. I saw some German Shepherds who totally didnt listen to anything they were told to do and were a just a complete mess due to the owners fault. It is sad when my dog knows more commands than a 2 or 3 year old dog. 

Pugmom made a comment that you had some training under your belt. What type of training have you done?

I am going to be asking a question in another thread about neutering. I was hoping for some of the people in here to answer that one but did not want to mix and match in this thread. 

So again, my bad. I can jump off the handle sometimes.

Now, next post is for everyone else. 

To everyone else,

I dont have an issue with my dog, cshellenberger. My dog is sound for now during this puppy stage. In my very first post, I mentioned what I was doing for create training. Wvasko replied back and I have answered him back in my last response. Soft bite is a controversial technique. I am working with a trainer and I will be training for a guard dog. I need him to understand the bite control. I do NLIF before I give a Nilabone or any dog food or doing sit before going inside or walking on a walk or even a toy. I have even on occasion, made him find his treat using the command find. I dont care if he is compared to a 3 year old. That wasnt the problem. Just refer to my last post. 

Briteday, that is unfortunate that your dogs relieve themselves in the house. I hope my dog doesnt ever pick up that habit.

Thanks all!


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

armymil
Close to 50 yrs training 14 yrs campaigning GSPs in field trials, 15 yrs personal protection, obedience training all the years and 90 total breeds trained, and looking for my 91st.

The do you feel lucky/punk Eastwood quote was toward OP about his dog out of crate because that's what it is (luck when you un-crate a young dog in your home).
As far as the none of my business, it's not my business as everybody has their own way of doing things. Their way may not be my way, I am old school trainer and tough on dogs by today's standards of training but I have a solid rule that puppies can not do much wrong as I will change their attitudes when I think they can handle pressure as some puppies have fragile egos. Through the years I have had too many pup 4 months and older that come to kennels and look like wet noodles because of early pressures by owners. Just give me a wild woolly pup, much easier to train than a wet noodle. No offense taken by your reply.


----------

