# Duclaws???



## Pittsburgh Duke (Apr 5, 2014)

Duke will be a year old this December. I plan to get him neutered around Thanksgiving. I've noticed his duclaws get caught constantly even though I try to keep them trimmed. I'd like to ask the vet to remove them when he's neutered, but I'd like to hear from you all first. Good stories, bad stories--please educate me about what you know. Thanks in advance!!!! =)


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Some dogs, such as Labs, may have dewclaws that are attached by skin rather than more solid tissue. If the dewclaws get caught, the skin may tear... good justification for removing the dew claws when the puppy is young. I don't see an issue with removing dewclaws... except:

Ask your Vet's opinion, and ask about recovery/healing in your specific case, especially in an adult. Your Vet understands the issues, and knows your dog, so he can explain any issues.


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## Pittsburgh Duke (Apr 5, 2014)

Thank you!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It's a difficult recovery for an older dog. The wounds are in an area that's easy to lick/chew (and hard to prevent licking/chewing there), and are easily re-injured. There was a thread here someone made about her dog's recovery from having dewclaws removed as an adult and it was a real ordeal. I guess you'd have to decide if they're enough of a problem that the removal would be worth it.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Are you talking about front dewclaws or back? How attached are they? 










I've read that the front ones are actually attached to ligaments and there for a reason (if not just floppy hanging ones). They're used by the dog for holding things and when they're running.


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## Pittsburgh Duke (Apr 5, 2014)

Wow, I didn't know that. I'm talking about his front dewclaws. Thank you for sharing that research.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

SDRRanger said:


> Are you talking about front dewclaws or back? How attached are they?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dogs have back dewclaws? ....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

BostonBullMama said:


> Dogs have back dewclaws? ....


Some do. Not all. Not most, IME (I've actually only ever met 2 dogs with rear dewclaws), but some breeds are more likely to have them than others.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

BostonBullMama said:


> Dogs have back dewclaws? ....


Yup, Dexter had rear dewclaws, and they were pretty big, and they wobbled when he walked. They weren't attached by tendons or bone, just a flap of skin, so we had them removed. Front dewclaws on the other hand.....his were fully attached, so are Caeda's, and being attached, I personally wouldn't want to mess with them.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Toby doesn't have them, I'd never even thought it was a thing until now.. lol. I don't think I've ever even clipped a dog with rear dewclaws.


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## Pittsburgh Duke (Apr 5, 2014)

Thank you, everyone. That makes my mind up--Duke's dewclaws stay!


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Good decision. IMO
Here's a great video on why you should keep dewclaws, at least for retrieving dogs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4XflsMEk-k


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Yup, Dexter had rear dewclaws, and they were pretty big, and they wobbled when he walked. They weren't attached by tendons or bone, just a flap of skin, so we had them removed.


Our foster has ones like this.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

BostonBullMama said:


> Toby doesn't have them, I'd never even thought it was a thing until now.. lol. I don't think I've ever even clipped a dog with rear dewclaws.


It's definitely weird seeing them back there. I've seen a few saints with them in the back. Apparently the back ones are usually free floating so they can be removed without too much concern (and it tends to be suggested with certain dogs as they will tear and rip if they're banging through the woods. 

I don't have any issues with Ranger's front ones (they are tight like your dog Pitts Duke) even with the amount of smashing he's done off roading. I know Flyball dogs will have them taped down (with vetrap or even little booties) so they don't tear them off during practice/competition. I'd rather manage certain situations than remove them anyway. 

Duke: Glad to hear they're staying


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

If they are loose and causing the dog pain they can potentially rip and I do think they should be removed. Also although they can help some with holding stuff and running a dog is still capable of doing the exact same stuff without them. Try telling Raggy he can't run,climb,make quick turns or hold toys with his paws because he lacks dewclaws. They can help if the dog falls into icy water though,and feel their really is no reason to remove them in most dogs.
Also rear ones are completely useless and sense their barely attached the removal should not be traumatizing at all in a healthy dog.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Foresthund said:


> If they are loose and causing the dog pain they can potentially rip and I do think they should be removed. Also although they can help some with holding stuff and running a dog is still capable of doing the exact same stuff without them.


I'm not saying that a dog can't learn to work around the amputation of their dew claws, but a tight affixed claw on a dog is used for turning to prevent torque on the leg (which can lead for carpal arthritis). Those buggers actually hit the ground when a dog is galloping or turning. Floating ones though do nothing and are definitely problematic.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I know with watching my own dog that if he had dewclaws they would be touching the ground while turning sharply and sometimes running. I also know that their is some belief that it can lead to arthritis,although not proven. It's more that I can see dogs do the same kind of movements and be happy healthy pets without them thus keeping a miserable dog for the sake of them or refusing to adopt a dog because of it seems worry some. They are still dogs without them.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Hence the reason I said they can manage without them and that problem ones should be removed for the sake of the dog.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

SDRRanger said:


> Hence the reason I said they can manage without them and that problem ones should be removed for the sake of the dog.


Dr Zinke (the sports-dog vet) does not agree with you. 
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation.pdf

Quoting a few sentences from this article

_If you look at an anatomy book . . . you will see that there are 5 tendons attached to the dewclaw. Of course, at the other end of a tendon is a muscle, and that means that if you cut off the dew claws, there are 5 muscle bundles that will become atrophied from disuse.
Those muscles indicate that the dewclaws have a function. That function is to prevent torque on the leg. Each time the foot lands on the ground, particularly when the dog is cantering or galloping (see Figure 2), the dewclaw is in touch with the ground. If the dog then needs to turn, the dewclaw digs into the ground to support the lower leg and prevent torque. If the dog doesn't have a dewclaw, the leg twists. _

And if you work your dog on ice, dewclaws become doubly important. Do look at the video I posted above. It shows dogs with and without dewclaws doing retrieves on thin ice. Those with dewclaws get out easily. Those without struggle, and might easily drown should they break through thin ice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4XflsMEk-k


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

also someone pointed out that rear dews are not functional ut that's not always true, certain breeds do have functional, firmly attached rear dews.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> Dr Zinke (the sports-dog vet) does not agree with you.
> http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation.pdf
> 
> Quoting a few sentences from this article
> ...


If you'd read the other posts I had made in this, you'll see that the quote you took from Dr. Zinke is actually the same as the photo I had originally posted stating that I am against dew claw removal. What you quoted there, was my response to Foresthund regarding dogs who have unattached floppy ones, OR dogs that have had them removed can manage (as in, you dog rips one off/needs amputation or had them previously removed they can still be a dog).

So I think Dr. Zinke would probably agree with what I said.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Looking at the picture of the dewclaw you posted, I would trim back the dewclaw further. I would get rid of the little hook at the end of the claw. I would not remove the dewclaw because of the age of the dog. Front dewclaws are attached and can be a bugger during the healing process. E-collar and bandage changes are part of the process. A big dog with a big e-collar becomes a wrecking ball inside the house. 

If it was those dangling rear dewclaws, I would suggest removing them. The danglers are a real problem for some dogs. It can change the way they walk and can get caught on so many things. I have a dog who the previous owners had them removed and I am glad the past owner did.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Yup, Dexter had rear dewclaws, and they were pretty big, and they wobbled when he walked. They weren't attached by tendons or bone, just a flap of skin, so we had them removed. Front dewclaws on the other hand.....his were fully attached, so are Caeda's, and being attached, I personally wouldn't want to mess with them.


That's how Josefina's are attached, by tendons and more secure ... stuff lol. It's clear she uses them, because when I play fetch when her and bear, the JRT (who had his removed per his breed standard) the difference is clear, he has a lot more trouble gripping and is prone to losing his footing, she has a lot less trouble and it's clear she uses them to grip.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think nonfunctional, loose rear dewclaws are commonly removed in Labs. However, the front dewclaws are frequently used as rigid thumbs and I never considered removing those. Good Catch, SDRRanger! ... Cool about dewclaws and ice! Not something we run into in Charleston, but interesting.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree, I think that if they are more a hindrance then a help, then they should be removed.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

SDRRanger said:


> If you'd read the other posts I had made in this, you'll see that the quote you took from Dr. Zinke is actually the same as the photo I had originally posted stating that I am against dew claw removal. What you quoted there, was my response to Foresthund regarding dogs who have unattached floppy ones, OR dogs that have had them removed can manage (as in, you dog rips one off/needs amputation or had them previously removed they can still be a dog).
> 
> So I think Dr. Zinke would probably agree with what I said.


If you're going to copy things from a source you MUST cite the source. Especially when the source is apropos to the discussion at hand and readily available to the audience.

Sorry. I read posts piecemeal.  I didn't go back and compile and cross reference to see that a previous post against dewclaw removal was written by you.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> If you're going to copy things from a source you MUST cite the source. Especially when the source is apropos to the discussion at hand and readily available to the audience.
> 
> Sorry. I read posts piecemeal. I didn't go back and compile and cross reference to see that a previous post against dewclaw removal was written by you.


Sorry, didn't know I needed to cite on each response what my original opinion was...

Just in case people are confused still by my opinion: 



> I've read that the front ones are actually attached to ligaments and there for a reason (if not just floppy hanging ones). They're used by the dog for holding things and when they're running.





> It's definitely weird seeing them back there. I've seen a few saints with them in the back. Apparently the back ones are usually free floating so they can be removed without too much concern (and it tends to be suggested with certain dogs as they will tear and rip if they're banging through the woods.
> 
> I don't have any issues with Ranger's front ones (they are tight like your dog Pitts Duke) even with the amount of smashing he's done off roading. I know Flyball dogs will have them taped down (with vetrap or even little booties) so they don't tear them off during practice/competition. I'd rather manage certain situations than remove them anyway.
> 
> Duke: Glad to hear they're staying





> I'm not saying that a dog can't learn to work around the amputation of their dew claws, but a tight affixed claw on a dog is used for turning to prevent torque on the leg (which can lead for carpal arthritis). Those buggers actually hit the ground when a dog is galloping or turning. Floating ones though do nothing and are definitely problematic.





> Hence the reason I said they can manage without them and that problem ones should be removed for the sake of the dog.


I believe dew claws are like extra cat toes in that they should be left unless causing issues. Yes, having your dew claws is probably best, but if you have a loose one that continues to be torn, or floppy hind ones that you know from experience are going to cause issue and not not well connected then you should speak to your vet about removal.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My foster dog had rear dewclaws. They really are just flaps of skin with a nail stuck out for a lot of dogs. Some breeds have attached rear dews and some even have two dewclaws on their rear legs (pyrsheps for example can). 

The floppy ones are the ones that are usually removed. As a puppy, some breeders may remove the front dews but they are a big deal to remove as an adult because it's a fully functional toe. 

Beau has ripped his dewclaw off 4 times now but he's also ripped off other toenails here or there. He's the ONLY dog I know with repeat toenail issues. No idea why. My others all have their dews and are fine.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I was glad to see when I got Kris, that they had not removed her front dew claws. On the little dogs, I hate it when they have back dew claws as it makes it harder when you have to clip their hair and the nails grow in such a tight circle that you have to be forever trimming them as they have no contact with the ground so do not wear on their own at all. I have never taken off their front dew claws but like it when they are born without the back ones.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have had dogs with and without and there is a difference, but they all get along without them fine, as well as with. Personally, as a sport dog person I would prefer for my dogs to have them. But I can work with it if they dont


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

sandgrubber said:


> If you're going to copy things from a source you MUST cite the source. Especially when the source is apropos to the discussion at hand and readily available to the audience.
> 
> Sorry. I read posts piecemeal. I didn't go back and compile and cross reference to see that a previous post against dewclaw removal was written by you.


Calm down, this isn't a research paper.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

But the doc is right about the leg twisting without the dewclaws. I can kind of understand why breeders remove them if the breed standard doesn't say specifically to leave them, because they can be a hindrance and a source of injury to dogs.

Most of the terrier breed standards call for them to be removed.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

bowie said:


> Calm down, this isn't a research paper.


No it isn't. But the Zinke paper from which he/she grabbed a bit without acknowledgement is a really good statement of the 'keep front dewclaws' argument. It shortchanges the reader to summarize it in one sentence and not name the source . . . and copying a diagram without acknowledgement is, technically, violation of copyright.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> No it isn't. But the Zinke paper from which he/she grabbed a bit without acknowledgement is a really good statement of the 'keep front dewclaws' argument. It shortchanges the reader to summarize it in one sentence and not name the source . . . and copying a diagram without acknowledgement is, technically, violation of copyright.


Then report me


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> No it isn't. But the Zinke paper from which he/she grabbed a bit without acknowledgement is a really good statement of the 'keep front dewclaws' argument. It shortchanges the reader to summarize it in one sentence and not name the source . . . and copying a diagram without acknowledgement is, technically, violation of copyright.


No its not :/, she didn't publish it or make money on it.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

talked to a lab breeder about dewclaws and if she had watched this video. Yes she had and because of it had stopped removing the dewclaws. Now she is back at removing the dewclaws. Hunters complained about weeds and such getting caught up in the claw and some dogs had injuries occur and the claw bled a LOT when they are out in the field. ( It kind of reminded me of the englisman and the docked tail episode) Anyway, she tells me she is back to removing the dewclaws. Her comments about the video. Dogs that are gonna be in ice water need to have a life jacket or a neoprene jacket on it. She was more mad that none of the dogs had either one of these things on them. Just thought I would add this to this thread. She raises labs for field and show.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Emmett is probably ten years old. About two months ago he had his front left dewclaw removed due to a suspicious soft tissue growth. The vet left the last bone of that digit behind because apparently that is the bone that has the most connections and it's removal causes the most problems. Emmett had two days of pain meds, but truthfully probably didn't even need the second day. He was playing and running and doing all the same things he had been doing before the removal. I saw no evidence of a particularly painful or difficult recovery and in fact he had more trouble with pain and walking after we had to aggressively trim back his overgrown nails under sedation.

Now, I'm not saying that all or even most dogs will have this kind of reaction to this surgery. But I am saying that I was freaking out that he was going to have just this horribly painful and debilitating experience based on all the articles and anecdotes I have read about this procedure...which couldn't have been further from the reality of his recovery. My vet has done a number of these procedures in his 25 years of practicing and he said most adult dogs he's seen that haven't needed that last bone removed and aren't undergoing the removal due to trauma fare pretty much as Emmett did. So, if the procedure is deemed medically necessary I think people shouldn't be anxious about it. I wouldn't however do it unless it was medically necessary because they ARE useful and beneficial so I don't see the point in removing them in an adult dog without cause.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

luv mi pets said:


> talked to a lab breeder about dewclaws and if she had watched this video. Yes she had and because of it had stopped removing the dewclaws. Now she is back at removing the dewclaws. Hunters complained about weeds and such getting caught up in the claw and some dogs had injuries occur and the claw bled a LOT when they are out in the field. ( It kind of reminded me of the englisman and the docked tail episode) Anyway, she tells me she is back to removing the dewclaws. Her comments about the video. Dogs that are gonna be in ice water need to have a life jacket or a neoprene jacket on it. She was more mad that none of the dogs had either one of these things on them. Just thought I would add this to this thread. She raises labs for field and show.


I side with the 'keep 'em' group for a similar argument. I used to breed Labs and still have three. My mentor in breeding removed dew claws because she thought dogs look better in the show ring without them. She regarded the 'clean line' with the dew claw removed as attractive. I resist doing anything for purely cosmetic reasons, and I feel that removing front dew claws is a bit like removing a thumb from the hand. I've owned well over a dozen Labs and have never had a problem with a dew claw catching on things or getting torn.


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

Belle has both front and back dew claws. The front ones are attached firmly and she uses them all the time. After reading this it is no wonder she can move the way she can since the dew claws aid in the turning/grabbing when they run. Her back ones are pretty floppy but seem to be up high enough not to be a problem. One is more floppy than the other but so far no problems with them. (knock on wood!) We had planned on having them removed when she was spayed as a puppy but then she got sick and the spay was delayed for quite some time. Once she was able to be spayed I figured she didn't need any unnecessary surgery


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

sandgrubber said:


> I side with the 'keep 'em' group for a similar argument. I used to breed Labs and still have three. My mentor in breeding removed dew claws because she thought dogs look better in the show ring without them. She regarded the 'clean line' with the dew claw removed as attractive. I resist doing anything for purely cosmetic reasons, and I feel that removing front dew claws is a bit like removing a thumb from the hand. I've owned well over a dozen Labs and have never had a problem with a dew claw catching on things or getting torn.


I have some dogs who have them and some who do not. I have not had any problems with weeds creating a problem either. I think a couple of times, a dog may have split a nail but a good trimming back and bandaging for a couple of days fixed the problem. I am not a stickler for any camp, I can be the no dewclaws or the dewclaw camp. I just do not like to see the dogs who grow a weird shaped nail because the dewclaw was not removed all the way and grew back. I do not like to see that at all


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