# Training an overly submissive dog.



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

Hello good people!

My fiancee and I have just adopted a 3-4 yr old wire haired dachshund, rescued from the local shelter.

His name is Sarma (which means "wire" in Romanian)










While he is very smart, obedient and quick to learn, he's also overly submissive. We've only had him for about 4 days and I have started training him the simple and basic commands of "sit" and "come". So far so good, he learns fast, but we're having trouble with the down command. After I've brought him into a "sit" I try "down" but he drops, turns on his back, feet up in a very submissive posture. 

Which brings me to the second part of our problem, submissive-excited urination. It seems to be a combination of both. I say this because it happens when, for instance, I wake up and walk into the kitchen where we meet (he is not allowed to sleep in our bedroom). He is joyous, making circles around me and touching my legs. He is obviously happy, if a bit excited and it is then when he sometimes squirts a bit of pee. Same when I come home from work.

Now, after reading up on this matter, what I do when I come home is simply ignore him for the 3-5 minutes it takes for him to settle down and once he is calm, I give hit a bit of attention - a gentle rub on the head and a few words in a soft and calming tone. Usually, but not always, he pees a little even after he's calmed.

Because I said I think this is also a case of submissive urination, I'll explain why. 

On the very first night he came home with us, not even 30 minutes after arriving, he went up on our bedroom bed. Immediately upon noticing it I told him to get down pointing to the floor. He cowered on the bed and peed a little. I might have been a bit too firm, having also made the mistake of bending over him... 

Since then I have toned it down a lot and I am very calm and always try to lower my height in relation to him when trying commands. But he will also sometimes pee during training sessions. 

I do short and random training session throughout the day and always try to end with a command he does well (like sit or come) so we can finish in a positive vibe. However, I can't get to him to lie down. I tried with treats but he's not overly excited about food. After I get him into a "stay" and try a "down" he drops on his back and sometimes pees.

I'm sorry this turned out to be so long but I wanted to give a clear picture of what we're doing and what is happening. 

Any advice would be great as I already love the little bugger and it almost breaks my heart to see he's so submissive. I'd love him to be a joyous dog that loves to play and do tricks.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Here is a topic I have had too much experience with. I used to take in many rescued Rottweilers. One such dog was a dog that had been hung, beaten, and used as bait for dog fighters. That dog was a nervous wreck and would pee all over at any raised voice, too fast of a movement etc... Teaching her was a lesson in complete calm and patience (as all training should be) I used very quiet soothing voice rather then excitement like I normally use for training. Praise was always just a word " yes " and a nice piece of seared steak or boiled chicken. High value items work best for training. In the beginning because I was concerned about her "fear biting" a stranger, I introduced her to very few people and just worked at home. As training progressed I began having others work with her by simply knocking on the door, coming in and handing holding a tasty treat out for her (not talking to her or even facing her) 

Working on confidence building helps a lot. Setting them up for success to build that confidence is the key. Time, work, patience,love. You will get there. 

For down, I had that roll on the back thing too. I just sat on the floor and lured her down without saying anything. Once she would go down, I would say calmly "good down" or just "down" and give her the bonus of rapid fire treats. In time she mostly gave up on the urination. My one brother who just didn't get it would still make her pee by talking in a loud gruff voice. She soooo wanted to love him and be loved by him but he is a nonforgiving type and would get irritated by her and yell at her to get away. She made huge strides however with everyone else. She was a most wonderful dog. I hope your guy will be the same. 

Also, talk to the vet about the urination. Sometimes there is a medical condition that goes hand in hand, though not always. Would be worth asking the question. Sounds like you are doing everything right and it just takes time. The more you can work, the better it seems to be. Keeping all the training low key and positive at all times. Games are good confidence building as well. Find it games and even fetch builds confidence. I played a lot of tug of war and let her win often. 

Your dog is so cute I am sure it is hard to not just grab him and snuggle him but that is a no no until he is confident.


----------



## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

You said you "just" adopted him. How long has it been? If it's only been a week or two or three, please be patient. He needs time to become comfortable and secure in his new environment. You're still getting to know each other. For now I'd try to avoid exciting him in any way and I'd also be very careful when training him not to be stern. If you want him to lie down, wait until he lies down on his own, then click and treat. Do that for a while, then add the word you want to use for lying down and use the click and treat. Soon he'll learn what you want him to do. Oh, and if he hasn't been introduced to the clicker, do that first. If he's too sensitive for the clicker, then use a word like "yes" and a treat.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

He's been with us since Saturday evening and I guess you're right... he might still be adapting. I got him from a friend that does volunteering at the local pound where she takes dogs and finds them owners. 

Also, prior to me having him, he has switched 3-4 owners over the last couple of months... Poor fellow's been through a lot. 

Probably unrelated but he's had a bit of diarrhoea for the last 2 days. I feed him home made food consisting of pasta, rice, potatoes, carrots, hard boiled eggs, and boiled chicken meat. To help him adapt to the change of diet I also threw him half a handful of commercial dry dog food. As of today he only eats home-cooked food. Could the diarrhoea be due to the stress of him changing his environment? Or is it the food, though I doubt it.

And yeah, it kind of breaks my heart I can't just smother him with hugs, but we're working on him being comfortable and trusting around me.

Might be worth mentioning he seems to be a bit more at ease towards my fiancee.

Thanks.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Four days. He's still figuring things out and whether you guys are his forever home and what he's supposed to do with you. Yes, the diarrhea is likely stress related, it's not unusual, but if it doesn't clear up or gets worse or he starts vomiting a vet check is in order.

Honestly, dachsies I have found often difficult to teach the down cue to. Like other small/shortlegged dogs, luring them down is barely evident to them that they are actually doing anything and often their tummies are pretty hairless and cold floors can be an issue. I would stop trying to do lure and reward and simply do a capture at first...you see him lie down and then mark and reward. It's really not urgent that he do down for you right now. I would also likely give him a week or so with no training at all, unless he REALLY seems excited about it. Just let him settle..go for short walks, manage stuff around the house and let him be aside from the occasional reward for just being there. Not only will this likely help with the submissive urination (because it will reduce his basic stress) but will also give you a better idea of his triggers with simple observation.

He's really cute by the way, I really like the wirehaired dachsies.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

To be honest he doesn't really seem at all excited by training... I'll give him a week before we try again.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks so much for saving the dog. Sounds like you are doing the right things. I agree with the previous posters.
It took me 2 months to figure out how to get my low, long Puddin to lay down. Although behaviorist Jean Donaldsons says that dogs don't imitate, I asked Puddin to lay down, then I layed down flat on the ground. She immediately followed. She also copies her siblings when they are performing a desired behavior.
When I tried the "mirror method" with Puddin, I didn't know about "shaping" at the time. With shaping, you reward baby steps. Click and treat when she puts her head down. click and treat when she puts her shoulders down next time. Next time click and treat when her front feet move a little, and so on and so forth.
You can also look at increasing the value of the treats i.e. baked chicken verses milk bones.

Most dogs don't care for being petting on top of the head (well many of them indure it well because they love us so much). But shy dogs especially can have issues with this. And it can make a non shy dog more excited.

I believe the urination will subside once she feels safe and secure and you continue to be calm and patient with her.

Some info on shy dogs:
Information adapted from Animal Defense League:
http://www.adltexas.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=11&id=121&Itemid=278 
Shy Dog Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When helping dogs, it's important to be aware that some might have never have been in a home environment before; others might have suffered previous abuse. It takes patience and a kind hand and heart to gain the trust of a shy or fearful dog – but the love of this pet companion can be worth the extra effort. Here is some information that should help in the transition of your new family member. 

Bringing A Shy Dog Into Your Home
It may take your new pet a few days to settle in; during this time his appetite may be decreased. If your pet is not eating in the first few days, do not be concerned. After two or three days, if he is still not eating, try to mix in some wet food. If she still does not eat, talk to your vet. Make sure the pet stays hydrated as well. If the dog goes a day without drinking water, talk to your vet.

Some dogs may have never been in a home before. They may be hesitant to go through doorways and go up stairs, walk on carpet, etc... To help them adjust, start them in one room of your home and slowly introduce to new rooms. It is important for you to give them plenty of space. Give her time to explore on her own. Hugging, petting when not wanted will only slow down the socialization process. Let the dog come to you. Once the dog settles in, you can try the "breadcrumb" approach. Lay down some tasty treats in a line starting from far away and line them up in succession closer and closer to you. Eventually putting some treats in your lap. Let the dog take her time picking up the treats. Look away as the dog contemplates taking the treats and walking closer.

Shy dogs also feel better when they perceive that they have a place to escape to. So when sitting in a room with them, don't block the doorway, don't close the door, don't block the entrance to their kennel or crate. You don't want them running out of the house, but let them feel like they can escape to a safe place.

Many abandoned or stray dogs have never been on a leash before. And many of them are very shy about going potty on a leash. But because many of these dogs have never been in a home before, you might have a hard time getting them back in the house if you let them outside to potty off leash. Especially if you have a big yard. Put the dogs on a 20 or 30 foot training leash. Let them drag it around the yard. If you have difficulty getting them to come back in the house, slowly pick up the leash and lead them back in. Never leave a dog on a leash unattended. The potential for injury is too great.

Before you start taking the dog for neighborhood walks, be sure that he or she is comfortable on leash close to your house or in your yard.
When you are ready to go on walks, a slip leash or martingale is a must - with a separate collar with ID tags, rabies tag and microchip tag. 
Make sure you have the martingale collar and leash or slip leash securely attached before you open any doors. Always have a good grip on your leash; there can be many things that may scare your new pet on walks. More info on martingale collars here: 

http://www.meetup.com/sabigdawgs/messages/boards/thread/9347136#36476596. 

More info on slip leads here: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHIY4UTjFjo
Learning how to walk on a leash can take some time. Be very patient. Try to not "drag" the dog. Also note that shaking the leash to get the dog's attention is extremly counter-productive. This frighten a scared dog. 

Be very watchful of children around your new shy dog. In a time of fear, dogs have two options: fight or run. If a child corners a shy dog, or takes away her option to run, she may bite. To avoid any possible incidents, make sure to always supervise when children are with a shy dog (or any dog for that matter. No running or screaming. And just like adults, children must give the shy dog plenty of space and time. It is natural for children to be excited about a new pet but they must learn to let the dog come to them.

Have all members of the family be prepared to give small treats to your new pet, and reward your dog every time he comes to sniff or say hi. This will help your new pet feel comfortable with all members of your family. 


Pacing and circling can be expected the first few days. These are signals your dog just hasn't quite settled in yet. This should go away as she becomes more comfortable. 
It is a good idea to give your new dog a crate. Don't shut the door; just make it nice and comfy inside with food treats and a bed. He may want a quiet place he can go. 



Note: Shy dogs should NOT be outside-only dogs. In the beginning, these fur babies may think they want to be outside only. But they don't know how good house living is yet. Leaving a scared dog outside all day, every day will greatly hamper the socialization process.

Once the dog is comfortable with you, comfortable in the house, comfortable on walks, you can start socializing him with other people. Remind people:
- do not look at your dog
- speak in soft tones
- do not talk with hands
- remove hats, shades, backpacks, loud jewelry
- squat, get or their knees or bend down the their heads.

Have others offer your dogs treats, but have them look away when offering.

My basic philosophy when working with or living with a shy dog:
3 main things:
1. Patience - it could take days, weeks, months for a shy dog to come out of her shell. Give them that time. Rushing things will be counter productive
2. Leave them alone - Let the shy dog come to you when he is ready.
3. Keep them secure - keep them far away from open doorways and/or keep barriers in front of doors. Never open the fence gate when they are in the yard, make sure your yard is every secure and never leave them in the yard unattended - at least until they have settled in.


Note, some professionals advise that shy dogs should not have other dogs around because the shy dog needs to learn to depend on humans. I personally know of several cases where the exact opposite is true. I'm not saying adopt a friendly dog just for the scared dog, but I am saying don't isolate the scared dog in an attempt to socialize him. Let the dog have dog friends, human friends, toys, etc.. Dogs are natural social creatures and most humans can't be with their dogs at all time. Let them be around others dogs. It is not only good for socialization, but it can also help them from becoming lonely and board when you are not around.

Related Articles:
Recognizing a shy dog http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddtbr7bw_813hht27mdp 
Precautions when living with shy dogs: http://fuzzychildren.blogspot.com/2009/11/precautions-when-living-with-shy-dogs.html
Shy Dog Instructions http://docs.google.com/present/view?id=ddtbr7bw_547ghvs6msr
Approaching, Socializing Shy Dogs - mainly for shelter situations http://fuzzychildren.blogspot.com/2009/06/shy-or-unsocialized-dogs-approaching.html
Lost and Found - Rita's Story: http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddtbr7bw_797dz5c3xft
Escape Artists http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddtbr7bw_783f77z5sc3 
Rescuing http://docs.google.com/View?id=ddtbr7bw_762fvbhqjdk 
Tucked Tail http://fuzzychildren.blogspot.com/2009/06/tails_02.html
How to make a slip leash http://fuzzychildren.blogspot.com/2009/06/how-to-make-slip-leash.html
Using a slip leash Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHIY4UTjFjo 
Using a slip leash Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARA7pVgmOq0
Dog Walking Devices: http://fuzzychildren.blogspot.com/2009/06/dog-walking-devices.html
Lost and Found - ID: martingale collars, etc.. http://www.meetup.com/sabigdawgs/messages/boards/thread/9347136#36476596


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

Thank you for such and insightful post. It will keep me busy for some time. op2:


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Oh, I forgot to mention the diarrhea. Yeah some dogs can get it when they are stressed. This could be a normal reaction to a new home environment. But if continues for too long I'd see the vet.
Many vets will recommend a 12 to 24 fast to "reset" their stomach then a bland diet of chicken and rice for a few days until the poop starts looking normal again.
Way to go on the whole food diet!

When my Matt-Matt's poop gets a little runny, I give hime some canned pumpkin and acidopholis until his poop firms back up again. Did the stuff help or was he going to firm up in a couple of days anyway? I don't know, but he likes pumpkin and acidophilis so why not! . Oh if I don't feel like driving to the whole foods store for acidophilis, I give him some sugar free yogurt.

I agree with the other poster on "capturing" a behavior then rewarding. I forgot about that technique.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

I would like to add he is also very afraid of climbing stairs and I think it has more to do with darkness. You see, we live at the 2nd floor in an very new apartment building which has no electricity on the staircase (apartments do have electricity, just not the staircase) and thus no light. He will climb the stairs to the first floor no problem, they are lit from the light outside, but when we get to the bottom of the stairs leading to the 2nd floor he will drop on his belly and freeze.

Now, most of the times he will actually climb the stairs (I always light the way just in front of him, so he can see the stairs) but now and then... about 25% of the times he will not climb and I have to carry him up the stairs.

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

zgomot said:


> I would like to add he is also very afraid of climbing stairs


You could try a reverse Hanzel and Gretel - tossing tasty treats up the stairs - it might work but it may or may not make him feel better about the stairs. The best way to do it would be desensitization and counter conditioning. Below is an excellent video on D&CC.

Other things to try might be running away from her (of couse she needs to be safe on a long line) or you can get a running start and try to run up the stairs - being careful not to drag or yank of course.

However you accomplish this, *use extreme caution because of your baby's long low build.*
Actually some dachshund people don't care for stairs at all - whether or not the dog is afraid. * Talk to your vet. He or she might advise carrying the dog up the stairs all the time anyway. Or maybe a comfy doggie carrier or something.**Actually now that I think about the running thing, I wouldn't encourage running up the stairs. You could run towards the stairs then slow down once you get to them.*Actually a friend of mind taugh his dog a little trick where he goes up the stairs one at a time - following his dad's lead. When dad stops, the dog stops. That might be safer. She'll have fun and maybe protect her back.






Oh I forgot to mention. You shouldn't stand in front of her, facing her trying to get her to come to you. This just frightens a shy dog. Better to be by her side. Or maybe boyfriend can walk ahead, with his back to to the dog, calling him, you safely holding the leash.

If any of your neighbors have dogs, you could ask if they would help. Their dog could be the model. Many dog friendly dogs will follow a more confident dog.

Of course make sure your dog likes other dogs and make sure the model dog is friendly or else this will make things worse.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> Or maybe boyfriend can walk ahead


I wonder how I've given the impression of being a girl. Maybe 'cause I like to cook. Haha. I am the boyfriend!


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

LOL. It's a common assumption here that most posters are female unless the user name is obviously male or there is a signature of the name of the poster. It's obviously not a good assumption, but it happens.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

To the original poster, I would say that you don't need to worry about training "commands" at this point. Realize that training occurs 24/7 in the dog's life, and most of it is not commands. Your dog is learning your body language, who you are, what he's supposed to do to survive, etc. Those are the important things you should be concerned about teaching him.

For the submissive urination, I've had more than enough experience with this. You say you ignore for 3-5 minutes before you give attention, and he still pees. So, this is your dog giving you feedback that he wasn't ready. Don't even worry about giving attention when you come home, it's not necessary. Your dog just needs to smell you, he doesn't need to hear what you have to say. Good luck!


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

zgomot said:


> I wonder how I've given the impression of being a girl.


Thanks for corecting me. After 8 years working in HR, I should have known better than to make assumptions 

Oh yeah. I meant to mention before: I'm realy glad that you know not bend over him. That can be frightening for a shy dog.
Sarma is a lucky dog.
Oh and sorry about calling your dog a girl a couple of times. My eyes aren't so great and I thought I saw "samantha" for his name


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

qingcong said:


> To the original poster, I would say that you don't need to worry about training "commands" at this point. Realize that training occurs 24/7 in the dog's life, and most of it is not commands. Your dog is learning your body language, who you are, what he's supposed to do to survive, etc. Those are the important things you should be concerned about teaching him.
> 
> For the submissive urination, I've had more than enough experience with this. You say you ignore for 3-5 minutes before you give attention, and he still pees. So, this is your dog giving you feedback that he wasn't ready. Don't even worry about giving attention when you come home, it's not necessary. Your dog just needs to smell you, he doesn't need to hear what you have to say. Good luck!


These are very good points, I'll take them into consideration. Thanks.




Puddin's Training Tips said:


> Thanks for corecting me. After 8 years working in HR, I should have known better than to make assumptions
> 
> Oh yeah. I meant to mention before: I'm realy glad that you know not bend over him. That can be frightening for a shy dog.
> Sarma is a lucky dog.
> Oh and sorry about calling your dog a girl a couple of times. My eyes aren't so great and I thought I saw "samantha" for his name


That is quite all right, no need for apologies. I found it funny more than anything else.


And a little update. Sarma seems to be getting along nicely. He's a lot happier, wags his tail a lot more and is generally very curious as to what we are doing around the house. He is always around us. His diarrhoea is a lot better now, as well and he's been climbing the stairs by himself for the last couple of days.

One thing though, since he is becoming more confident he's started pulling on leash a little. Should I be trying to discourage that early, or give him a few more days of freedom and time to accommodate?


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I would start correcting it immediately, before it becomes a habit. This can easily be done without being harsh or nasty or scary in any way. You simply stop, wait for the dog to come to a full stop, then walk the other way. The dog will learn that pulling doesn't get him where he wants to go, and that he can't assume which way you will be going.

You can also take yummy treats with you and reward for walking next to you.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> You can also take yummy treats with you and reward for walking next to you.


Well you see, I have yet to discover something he really enjoys. I mean he does eat, most of the times a plateful of what I'm cooking him (see up the thread) but there's nothing that I've given him that makes him overly excited about food. At times he will just ignore the treat completely.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Does he like to sniff stuff? If he's pulling towards something he wants to sniff, you can use that as a reward. When he starts pulling towards it, stop and turn and walk a few steps the opposite direction. Then start walking towards the pole (or whatever it is) and as soon as he starts pulling towards it again, you turn and walk back to the starting point (you just mentally set a starting point somewhere, say 5 metres from the pole or something). You'll eventually get closer and closer to the pole, and each time he pulls you go back to the starting point. In the end he should be able to walk the whole way without pulling. Be careful to not let him pull the last couple of steps.

There is no need for treats this way, because the end reward is something that he decided he wanted, and he gets it once he can walk the whole way to it without pulling.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

He indeed loves to sniff around. Nice tip, it'll come in handy.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

zgomot said:


> Well you see, *I have yet to discover something he really enjoys.* I mean he does eat, most of the times a plateful of what I'm cooking him (see up the thread) but there's nothing that I've given him that makes him overly excited about food.


.... may be a little difficult at first, since he's getting chicken, carrotts etc as his daily staple. Keep experimenting, I'm sure once he settles in that you'll be able to find SOME kind of treat that turns his crank. He is a dachshund after all ... four short lil legs connected to a stomach  LOL



zgomot said:


> At times he will just ignore the treat completely.


One of the classic signs of being stressed. Again this could just be due to being re-homed, and being a bit unsure of what his future may hold in store. Allow him to settle in to his new digs for a while, always be patient and understanding.



Food tip: if you're competing against chicken and carrots, then maybe try things even MORE enticing to the senses, in particular the nose .. ie: stinky cheese, leftover steak from the bbq, baked liver with a touch of garlic, or even organ meat such as cooked chicken heart or beef heart, etc. Most dogs just can't resist that kind of stuff. If neccessary, tease him with it: pretend to eat it yourself "mmm mmm this is GOOD mmm" just to get him started.


Training tip: keep in mind that 'down' is a very vulnerable and submissive posture in and of itself. Many dogs will show reluctance to perform it at first, but should overcome that reluctance as their confidence / trust grows. Give the relationship ample time to develop and bloom before setting any significant expectations on this type of training.


Also: dachshunds are a bonafide hunting breed, so you may find that games of tug, fetch, chase etc are more appealing to his prey drive. Something to consider for use as reinforcement, and as a confidence-builder, ... perhaps ?



And, thanks for rescuing :clap2: .. he looks absolutely adorable !


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Terrific info and insight from petpeeve

My nervous Belgian Malinois mix will eat canned sardines (check the salt content) and canned salmon when we are out.

Definitly get a handle on the pulling now for two reasons
1. It's self rewarding and the more it continues, the harder it will be to stop it later
2. He has a long back so all that pulling can't be good for hijm

Stopping and turning around is great. But be extra careful with him since he is a sniffer. You don't want to physically pull him back to you when turning around. This will twist his back. It also engages the opposition reflex in most dogs and just makes them puller harder. You will have to get his attention and call him back to to follow you as you turn around. Now this might be hard with a nose-on-the-ground kind of dog.
I suggest Red Light Green Light - Perfected by Ian Dunbar
My long low dog also loves the Heeling Spoon. But that might be harder for your baby if he isn't into treats yet. 
See this article for Red Light Green Light, Harnesses, and other methods: http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/04/red-light-green-light/
See the video below for the healing spoon
Oh, a great little pamphlet on leash pulling -"My Dog Pulls; What Do I do" By Truid Rugaas: http://amzn.to/hgm7Gn






Just remembered two more things. Probably stuff you already know since you seem pretty smart but it bears mentioning anyway:

Absolutely no leash yanking. The above article explains why. But this could be especially bad in long, low dogs.

Walk him before breakfast. Maybe he will be a little bit more motivated by food if he hasn't eaten yet. 

Actualy Ian Dunbar tells new pet parents to ration out their meals, put them in treat bags and use all their food for little rewards. i.e. when you are on a walk and you meet the mail carrier without lunging, dog gets a treat. You walk a little further, meet another dog without pulling, dog gets a treat. Loose leash, treat. Scary garbage truck goes by and pup doesn't cower, treat, etc..
The Nothing in Life is Free Program is a great way to establish yourself as a Benevolent leader. Letting the dog know that all great things come from you. Saldly lot's of folks still think that pet parents need to use their hands to show who is leader


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

I just finished another loose leash walking video. This method is called the "Crazy Man" by some trainers.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm back again and I need some more advice from you lovely people here.

I've been studying a lot on dog behaviour, psychology and training lately and I found Cesar Millan's techniques to be fantastic. Especially the part about a dog's need for rules boundaries and limitations. It all makes sense - having an ALPHA that they sense to be strong and calm, offers them the peace of mind of knowing their guidance and protection is assured. Now my fiancee and I have sort-of decided our bedroom to be our den, where are little fellow is only rarely allowed, at our invitation and where he is to leave the moment we decide he should do so. 

If until tonight most of the times, with the door open he would simply not enter until called (and I do invite him in at times) this evening he went in the room by himself, while none of us was there. He went up on our bed and wouldn't come down, he wouldn't respond to neither of our calling. Moreover he appeared a bit scared and when approached, he cowered and started to turn on his back, legs up. Eventually I had to lift him off the bed and place him down on the floor as it was clear he wasn't going to come down by himself any time soon. 

I don't know what to think... I am reluctant to believe he was trying to claim the bed, as he showed no signs of aggression what so ever, on the contrary he seemed very calm and submissive, scared even. Even though he has a nice bed with a soft pillow in the living room, he sleeps most of the time right on the other side of our bedroom door. Every morning when I wake up he's right there. Even now, my fiancee is sleeping and he is lying on the floor right outside the door. Maybe he just wants to feel close to us?

TBH it breaks my heart to see him like this - he appeared genuinely sad I took him off the bed and both my fiancee and I would actually love him to sleep with us on our king-size bed, but I do not want him to start thinking we're weak and take control of the pack only to turn into a tyrant, believing he's in charge and entitled to everything.

Might be worth mentioning I, although unwillingly, gave him a bit of a scare tonight. I bought a clicker and prepared some treats he seemed to be quite interested in, called him to me and clicked when he came. Just when I was prepared to treat, literally a second after the click, the poor bugger ran off scared. The clicker must've been too loud or something but it scared the bejesus out of him. He never took the treat and completely ignored it when I brought it right up to his nose. This was all before he went into our bedroom and up on our bed... could have this been the cause? Did I really frighten him so much?

Also, he never plays. He is completely uninterested in the chew toy we bought him and is generally very slow and inactive while indoors - all he does all day is lie on the floor, than move to another spot in the house to lie on the floor, than follow me or my fiancee in the bathroom or the kitchen where he lies on the floor some more.

I am frustrated... Should he be allowed in our bedroom more often? Should he sleep with us, at least a week or three until he accommodates? Should I simply let him be and postpone all training and all pressure what so ever for a few weeks?


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

You're a bit like myself when I first started out. I loved Cesar Millan, I also bought myself a clicker. As it turns out, Cesar Millan and clickers don't actually mix well. CM isn't actually dog behavior or dog psychology, he's a celebrity with a unique set of views on dog training. Everybody has a unique set of views. He's talented and charismatic, so innocent dog owners are attracted to him. He doesn't represent where the dog training (dog behavior/psychology, if you will) world is actually headed. I like many of his ideas, but they are vague and easily taken out of context. 

Judging by how you are questioning the notion of your dog becoming a tyrant who rules the house, I see you are interested in learning the truth. The truth is, your dog has no incentive to become a dictator. His only incentive is to do what's good for him, he's 100% innocently selfish, just like a young child. He didn't read the book on pack theory and wolf dominance. The more you discover, the more you will come to this conclusion. 

As I mentioned before, training is 24/7. Teaching him that you are a trusted figure is training.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Dear Zgomot
So great that you are trying so hard with the little one. And so great you are taking the time to study and read.
Despite what some people teach, dogs in general aren't these creatures that are waiting for us to slip up so they can take over. Reading and watching Cesar is fine but Cesar continuously says these things about himself (this is *not* me saying this; this is Cesar). He is NOT a trainer; He is NOT a behaviorist, He has NOT studied animal behavior.

I am NOT saying that dogs don't need rules, structure, boundaries, etc.. because they do. And they do need to look to us for leadership. But what I am saying is that in addition to Cesar, I urge you to read books by people who have studied animal behavior, people who have degrees in Behaviorism, Psychology, Ethology, and the like. Read several different authors then come to your own conclusions.

I would start with Patricial McConnell's " How to be the Leader of the Pack.." http://amzn.to/e2lCks. It's only 16 pages and can be read in one sitting.

Then read "The Other End of The Leash.." by McConnell: http://amzn.to/h0LnDQ - a wealth of information about dog behavior

"..Calming Signals.." by Turid Rugaas - http://amzn.to/hytagS Seems you are already reading your baby well. But this is a great book on dog language. It can be read in one sitting also.

"Then Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson: http://amzn.to/g2WEaM

Clickers are definately scary to shy dogs. I'll post some thoughts on clickers, sleeping arrangments, managing behaviors later tonight or maybe tomorrow. Gotta get back to work.



qingcong said:


> he's a celebrity with a unique set of views on dog training. ...charismatic, so innocent dog owners are attracted to him. He doesn't represent where the dog training (dog behavior/psychology, if you will) world is actually headed. I like many of his ideas, but they are vague and easily taken out of context.


Great info qingcong!!


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

Thank you all for being so prompt and thorough in providing advice. This is hands down the warmest and friendliest forum I read/post on and I do so on quite a handful - I've been called a forum-whore on quite a few occasions 

And yeah... I love to read (and write needlessly long forum posts LOL) so I'll get busy with those books. Thanks again.

PS. I need a lot more tips on how to achieve this:



qingcong said:


> Teaching him that you are a trusted figure is training.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

zgomot said:


> PS. I need a lot more tips on how to achieve this:


There's no easy answer to this. It's something I've learned to do by reading books and experience. All dogs are sensitive to body language, some more than others, but they read body language much better than humans do because that's one of the only things they can rely on in their world. They have no idea what human language mean, body language is all they have. 

Patricia McConnell's two books - The Other End of the Leash and For the Love of a Dog are excellent books on instinctual body language. Cesar Millan is a master of body language, from being very dominating to being very approachable. 

Some quick tips on being less intimidating
- approach sideways
- avoid eye contact
- say nothing

For example with the bed, just go up and claim the bed. Use your body to take up space and he will get off when there is no room. There's nothing intimadating about that and there's no need for you to get frustrated. If he tries to get back on, block with your body. Body blocking is a key skill to develop. When you are not there to supervise, close the door so he doesn't get the chance to practice it. If he doesn't get the opportunity to practice getting on the bed, he won't learn to do it.

I think the real key is being able to read your dog, seeing signs of stress and easing off. If you can stay "calm" and even tempered through your dog's worst tantrums, you will earn an extra point of trust each time. It will come over time though, you just have to be patient. My friend who isn't all that great at dog training eventually got through to his extremely skittish shelter dog. You'll get there.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

> having an ALPHA that they sense to be strong and calm, offers them the peace of mind


As I mentioned in my last post, I agree that our pets should look up to us. But I disagree with some ways that folks go about this. 
Pets should see us as the benevolent leader - all good things come from us. Of course feeding the dog is one way. When the dog is comfortable, asking for impulse control is great. Asking for a sit or stay before getting fed works fine - as long as the training is all positive reinforcement.

Since you have a shy dog, you can show the dog you are the benevolent leader by "stepping out in front" of things that frighten him. I live with 3 shy dogs. When a stranger insists on petting them on the head, standing over them, looking at them directly in the face, I step in front. I protect my dogs from the scary stranger. 
If an off leash dog runs up to my dog and acts rudely, then I step in between the rude dog and my dog. Turid Rugaas talks about "splitting up" in her "Calming Signals" book. : http://amzn.to/fL8AKU



> I have sort-of decided our bedroom to be our den, where are little fellow is only rarely allowed,


"Sort of decided"? Try not to confuse the little guy. If the bedroom is your private den, then that is fine; but for the dogs sake, make sure your mind is made up either way. 

If you are sure that this is the case, then as the poster mentioned, start with "management" so the dog doesn't get self-rewarded for going in there. I suggest a baby gate. That way, he can still feel close to you without going in. Be sure that the little fella can’t' jump over the gate. My little weenie dog can.
Video on Management: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el1h90bq998&feature=channel_video_title

As the dog settles in then you can put the behavior on cue. Maybe give an in or out command. Or work on perimeter training. Train the dog (through positive, non-touching methods only) not to cross the bedroom door barrier unless you give a release word. Here is some stuff on perimeter or barrier training. These links mainly apply to yards, but it can be extrapolated to any situation or area.
http://www.meetup.com/sanaturehounds-com/messages/boards/thread/10578313/0#40277440
http://www.helium.com/items/1485164-how-to-train-a-dog-to-stay-in-an-unfenced-yard
http://books.google.com/books?id=j7...#v=onepage&q=perimeter train your dog&f=false



> this evening he went in the room by himself, while none of us was there.


1.He is getting a little more used to his new environment and venturing out more, exploring more.
2. Dogs love to lie on and be close to things that smell like us - bedding and clothing especially



> he wouldn't respond to neither of our calling.


I know you are being patient with him. Please continue to do so as he learns. If your dog doesn't respond to a command, it's probably because it isn't fully "proofed" yet. If he learned how to come to you when you called him in the living room, that doesn't directly transfer to the bedroom. When teaching a command you will have to proof it in a variety of locations under a variety of increasing distractions until the command is fully proofed. This will take some time. 
A good book that addresses this is Family Friendly Dog Training by Patricia McConnell: http://amzn.to/hG1hhI

Additionally, most dogs prefer to come when we are running away from them. If you are staring directly at them, it's much harder and more uncomfortable for them. Especially for shy dogs. 
I think Patricia McConnell address this in The Other End of the Leash: http://amzn.to/gQJs24. 
Here is my interpretation of one of the methods mentioned in that book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nfr-u1BJMs



> Moreover he appeared a bit scared and when approached


It's great that you noticed this. Next time this happens, try to take note of your body language, your body position, your tone of voice at the exact moment that the dog looked scared. Actually you are going to have to look for some very subtle signals that the dog might display before the scared look. Turid Rugaas talks about these calming signals: http://amzn.to/fL8AKU
Yawing, head turning, scratching, wide eyes, eyes darting back and forth, dilated pupils, turning of the head, etc.. are all things you should look for that might either indicate the dog is stressed or the dog is trying to appease you or calm you down.

Digressing a little bit here. Ian Dunbar also mentions this when he talks about TV trainers. Dunbar advises people to turn the sound down, and with the dramatic music off, the charismatic trainer's voice unheard and the announcer's voice unheard, just look at the dog and how he/she is acting. More on that here: http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/tvtrain.aspx



> Eventually I had to lift him off the bed


Ian Dunbar says that hands should only be for petting . This is a great rule to go by for shy dogs. The other poster mentioned body blocking which could work well. I'd use that before using my hands. But body blocking could also scare a shy dog so watch for calming signals. You could also just try running away from the room to see if he follows or throwing a tasty treat on the floor. But of course, I'll reiterate management next time. Keep him out of the bedroom using the doggie door or closed door until he is perimeter trained. 
If you make a mistake and leave the door open (I mess up all the time) then just remind yourself that it was your fault and not the dog's.

"Hands should be only for petting" : I read that in Cesar's last book - the book where he gathers info from several different trainers. I'm not linking the book here because the book also has a lot of stuff I disagreed with - like pushing on a dogs butt to teach sit.
But here is a link to one of Dunbar's Books. "Before and After Getting Your Puppy: http://amzn.to/euupAL
And here is Dunbar's Blog: http://dogstardaily.com/

You could also teach the on/off command using treats when the dog is ready. i.e. throw treats on the floor and say "off" as the dog jumps off. But you have to be extra careful with long backed dogs. Some doxie people don't advocate letting long backed dogs on high surfaces just for safety issues not for Alpha issues.



> I am reluctant to believe he was trying to claim the bed


As I said in my other post, everything isn't about dominance or claiming



> Maybe he just wants to feel close to us?


Probably



> I would actually love him to sleep with us on our king-size bed, but I do not want him to start thinking we're weak


If you don't want the dog in your space that is fine. But I wouldn't banish him from your room just because some person who has not studied animal behavior told you to do so. 

Not only are my dogs allowed on the bed, the sofa, any chair, it is highly encouraged. Sometimes I sleep with 3 dogs at one time. The 4th one is welcome but he can't get up there (bad hips and knees). None of them have "taken over"

I'm not saying there aren't status seeking dogs out there. But I doubt this shy guy is one of them.



> clicker


Yep, my shy guys are afraid of the clicker 
What you can do instead. 
1. Decide on a marker word like "yessss!" and use it consistently and exactly the same way each time. Use that instead of the clicker
2. Put the clicker behind your back
3. Muffle the clicker in your hand
4. Get a quieter clicker like the I-clicker: http://amzn.to/gBv95b
5. Put some sticky tape at the clicker mechanism
6. Try a ball point pen as a clicker



> could have this been the cause? Did I really frighten him so much?


Possible. Just remember to go slow with shy guys - as I mentioned in my first post on shy dogs. You have all the time in the world.



> Also, he never plays.


Give him time to get comfortable. And the actions that a lot of humans use to incite dogs into play with scare a shy dog and make him move slower like thigh slapping. BTW, moving slowly is also a calming signal.



> He is completely uninterested in the chew toy


Try different things. Nylabones, Kongs, Antlers, food puzzles, different types of squeaky toys, etc.. Show them to him once and just leave them out (with supervision of course), let him take his time and go to them when he is ready. Don't wave them at him.



> follow me or my fiancée in the bathroom or the kitchen where he lies on the floor some more.


Sounds good that he follows you. If he is acting too lethargic, I'd be concerned that he might have a medical issue. A vet check might be in order.



> Should he be allowed in our bedroom more often?


If you want your dog to sleep with you, then let him. He's your dog. If he starts "taking over", which I doubt, then banish him from the bedroom.



> all pressure what so ever for a few weeks?


Definitely take away pressure.
I don't know what training methods you use, but make sure that anything you teach is fun and positive and completely hands off. i.e. you don't need to push on the butt to teach sit, you don't need to pull on a leash or push on the back to teach down.
And you never even need to use "Eh! Eh!" when teaching stay. 

References:
On Leadership and Dominance: https://docs.google.com/a/stubbypuddin.com/View?id=dfh2gdgv_11fqsg5hgp
Benevolent Leadership: http://www.stubbypuddin.com/2011/02/benevolent-leadership.html

The Cautious Canine by Patricia McConnell: http://amzn.to/dUWBR6

Scardey Dog by Ali Brown: http://amzn.to/hLcuOf
Note: this book is about dogs who react to other dogs. But it does have some interesting info on stress hormones in scared dogs.

WAIT







zgomot said:


> PS. I need a lot more tips on how to achieve this.. trusted figure.


More on that above. Also the book "How to be the Leader of the Pack"by McConnell has some good tips.
Good luck


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

Thanks for the heads-up, I find it odd how easily I fell into the trap of thinking Cesar's method was the best in the world. 

For the last couple of days I've been doing some reading and learning about different training methods and started to see some things in Cesar's way of doing things which may not be optimal. If you haven't already seen it, dr. Ian Dunbar's talk for TED was a moment of epiphany for me. Made me think how I could improve and maintain a good relationship with my fiancee too. 


Now to the point of my post, sorry I digress a lot. This morning, while walking with Sârmă, we tried to tone down his pulling of the leash and each time he started to pull and the leash got tense, I would stop. He would stop as well and as soon as he seemed calm (he yawned a couple of times) I would resume the walk. The very interested thing that happened is that at one time about 5-10 seconds after I've stopped, the little dude literally backed up a couple of feet until he was right by my ankle in a healing position (we worked a bit on this as well a few times). Now, I didn't say anything the whole time and he didn't just turn around to come heel - he went into reverse and came to heel. He did this twice in a a couple of minutes. Of course I praised him quite a bit, he is such a a fast learner!


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

That is a GREAT video...I've shared it on my facebook. 
I'm so glad that you are so open to seeing more than is evident in CM's world. Education is key. 

Oh, and GoodWork!


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Dear OP



> Dunbar


My friend sent me that video and I just watched it this morning before seeing your post. I loved it - as I love just about anything I see, read and hear from Ian Dunbar. Be sure to check out his blog at
http://dogstardaily.com/
And get his books



> Walking


What great news and what a smart little fella you have there. Congrats to both of you.



> Yawning


In this context, I'm almost positive that this little guy was NOT yawning out of relaxation.

In her book Calming Signals, Turid Rugaas talks about signals that dogs display to other dogs and their humans to avoid conflict, to appease. Dogs also display certain signals to try to calm themselves down when they are stressed i.e. scratching, digging, head turns. Yawning is a big one. Now of course, these behaviors can mean other things i.e. scratching could also mean they have an itch. So you look at the context in which the signals are displayed.

In your baby's context, I suspect he was a little bit stressed, but also in the leash walking context, it was not really a bad type of stress.

Example.
You are trying to figure out where a puzzle piece goes. You scratch your head and get a little stressed. But you don't want any help figuring it out. You can get it eventually. When you do get it, you are proud and happy.

So you will see dogs yawning during free shaping. They get a little stressed trying to figure out what you want (Why is Dad stopping?) but when they figure it out, they are happy (Ooooh! He likes it when I back up. Cool! I'll back up then). 

Free shaping makes for a smarter dog. It lets them figure it out themselves. One book I read (I think it was the Power of Positive Dog Training) said that the sure way to a stupid dog is to do everything for him - like the people who push on a dog's butt to get him to sit. Let the dogs figure out what you want, then praise highly.

Or course you never ever punish or get mad when they don't figure it out right away. Seeing your insight, I'm sure you'd never do that. But some would.

I haven't read this book yet, but I hear that it has some great info on free shaping:
Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm back...

The dog has made considerable progress regarding his general demeanor. He's more active, seems happier overall, however we are making no progress with training.

I mentioned he knows "sit" and "come" well. Now I doubt this too. His sit is never an answer to a command. Whenever I call him to me, once he comes he immediately and always sits. I can't get him to stand - luring doesn't work. He will just come towards me dragging his behind on the floor. He won't even bother to lift his bottom up. With "down" I gave up completely on teaching him that for the time being because he seems very confused by it.

About the walk now... he has a slight tendency to pull so I'm trying the technique I described a few posts up where I stop each time he pulls and wait for him to settle down. Leaving aside the fact that this way, I have to stop every 2 steps and a 50 meter walk turns into a 30 minute walk, I noticed something strange. The dog pulls a lot more in the first half of the walk and as soon as I decide to go home and tell him we're going home he sometimes immediately assumes the heeling position and walk perfectly on a very loose leash for minutes on end, without ever having been given any command at all. This is leading me to believe with confidence that he KNOWS how to do it, but just doesn't want to.

Related to this, sometimes I cannot get him to come to me at all. If 6/10 times he gladly comes to me - tail wagging, happy face and all, sometimes he will no come and if he does he does so in a very hesitant and fearful manner - head down, walking very slowly, almost crawling and as soon as he reaches my position he sit down and immediately afterwards lies down and turns on his back. Yes, we still have that problem.

So apparently there are only 2 reasons a dog will refuse to do something: 1. he doesn't understand what hie's being asked and 2. he doesn't feel that it's worth it or the reinforcement isn't strong enough. 

While I am pretty confident the latter is the case in my situation I am unsure how I could improve this. I have tried several treats from smoked bacon, to home made sausages (a delicacy even for me) to pieces of meat, but nothing appeals to him. 

What I do is when he's walked nicely, without pushing for a few meters, I tell him "free" and let him pull for a bit. I even do a short sprint with him. See... I'm not sure if this even correct and I'm a bit worried I'm sending contradictory signals (please correct me if I'm wrong) but seeing how he enjoys to run and go where he wants, I thought of rewarding him with just that after he's walked nicely for a bit.

One more thing and I promise I'll end this post  I keep reading about the "hands-off" training technique and how it's most advisable for shy and fearful dogs. Now I think I get the general gist of things, but there are times I HAVE to put my hands on him, like when I'm giving him a bath (the tub is rather high and I wouldn't want him jumping that high, so I lift him and put him inside) or he will refuse to climb the stairs, when I have to take him up... What does "hands-off" really mean?

I'm starting to feel a bit frustrated, please help.

NB: I NEVER hit, kick, yell at, scold, punish or abuse this dog in anyway. I'd rather lose an arm than do so, I already love the bugger that much, yet he still seems to be afraid of me.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

> This is leading me to believe with confidence that he KNOWS how to do it, but just doesn't want to.


*Please please get that thought out of your head right now*. Dogs are not good or bad. Just products of their environment and genetics. They do things that are rewarding and cease to do things that aren't rewarding; and they do things to avoid fear or being killed or injured. That's it. 

*Assuming a dog "knows" just impedes training and puts the blame on the dog rather than the training technique or the trainer.*

He is probably slowing down on the way back home because it is much less exciting to go home. That is just a guess though. As behaviorist Jean Donaldson would say.. we don't know what is in a dog's head.




zgomot said:


> "sit" and "come" well. Now I doubt this too...I can't get him to stand -


You can try "capturing or shaping"
Capturing - wait for the dog to do it, then praise highly.
Shaping - reward baby steps
"Don't Shoot the Dog" has info on shaping http://amzn.to/gflNsk




> About the walk now...


Just be consistent. Also try other non aversive methods in addition to red light green light. I think someone mentioned the premack principle already?
That is a great idea for a nose on the ground dog.
And in another post, I mentioned the crazy man, harnesses, etc.. I think I idd anyway.

Also, what i do for my little sniffer. Some behaviorists suggest this, some won't like it. - At least once a week, I take my weeny mix to the park early in the morning on a 30 foot leash and let her have more freedom. I still don't allow pulling. But this gives her a way to burn off energy and smell more stuff. 

Some people suggest different equipment when doing this.
like a collar for the 6 ffoot leash walks and a harness for the 30 foot leash walks so the dog will start learning the difference.

Since I use a harness all the time, I tried using different harnesses but I occasionally will misplace a harness then I just have to use what I have on hand.




> head down, walking very slowly, almost crawling


This is a calming signal (as mentioned in my other posts). He is either afraid of you or he is trying to appease you because he thinks you are upset.

Are you squatting down directly in front of the dog, looking directly at the dog, with your arms open? This is uncomfortable for most dogs, especially shy ones. Run away from him when you call. Or at least look in the direction that you want him to proceed.


["hands-off"]
Yes, you have to touch the dog to pick him up occasionally, that is perfectly fine. And calm petting is fine. 
Hands off means there is no need to push on the butt to teach sit, there is no need to push on the back or to pull on the collar to teach down, etc..
All basic commands can be taught using capturing, luring, or shaping.

I'll post more later today.

*Scratch the 30 foot leash idea for your dog*.
My puddin is friendly and outgoing. 
*It's not a good idea at all for a shy dog*. It's too much stimulation at once and he could get frightened too easily and hurt himself
More later


----------



## Shiningsummer (May 24, 2010)

You've gotten some fantastic advice in this thread and it sounds like you are doing really well! As the owner of a fearful dog myself, I know things can get pretty frustrating at times. Good job on your progress so far!

Anyway, just wanted to emphasize the advice about "come" and walking. As far as walking is concerned, it's very important to work on loose leash walking at home first. I would avoid walking him in the neighborhood for now. Just walk him around the house and the yard at first. Practice loose leash walking in the home until he is really good at it. Once he gets it at home, then practice in the backyard until he is rock solid on loose leash walking there. Then proceed to the front yard, then the sidewalk, the neighborhood, etc. You want to start in a place with fewer distractions and in the least scary place for him, which would be home. Each stage may take weeks or months for your little guy, so be prepared to be patient. I think this would really help you with walking.

For "come" you should praise him like crazy, treat him, or give him whatever he really likes when he comes to you. Do this even at times when you don't actually give a command but he comes to you anyway. He needs to learn that he will get rewarded for coming to you. He sounds like he's already very attached to you and your fiance, so this shouldn't be too difficult! If he doesn't come when you call, walk away from him and he'll follow. For example, when he was on your bed and wouldn't get off, I would have walked away to get him to follow.

Also very important: Never call him to you for anything unpleasant. For instance, if he hates baths or nail trims, do not call him to you for that! Go get him instead or get him to follow you.

Also, have you seen him interact with other dogs? I'm just wondering if he would enjoy a playdate with another dog. Nothing too overwhelming, just one dog at first and see if he could get some confidence and mental stimulation through that.

If you can get him to play tug or fetch, always let him win because this will help him with building up his confidence.

The most important thing we can give our dogs is our time and patience. Don't forget that you'll be living with him for many years to come, so don't try to push him too far too fast. You're doing really great with him so far so keep it up!


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> more later


I agree with everything the last poster said.
I also went back and looked at some older posts on this thread - yours, mine and other posters. I think you should go back and look at those as well since "proofing" as the last poster suggested is mentioned, several different leash walking methods, methods for come etc.. are also mentioned. 

I posted earlier that I thought the Premack Principle was posted. Someone did suggest letting Sarma sniff bushes when he didn't pull. This is the Premack Priniciple. Dunbar also calls this life rewards. The terms wasn't used in the post, but the concept was.

Looking at your last post and some previous ones, it appears to me that Sarma is clearly signaling to you that she is stressed or nervous or just plain scared - yawning, approaching slowly, crawling, etc.. are all calming signals.
Someone mentioned holding off on training - that might be a good idea.

You also mentioned that you are on a lot of forums. Nothing wrong with that but please be careful. I've seen some extremely awful advice on other forums (not this one). You don't know these people. 
You don't know me of course, but I usually post what I read about from experienced people and I list those sources.

So to sum up, here is what I suggest
1. Stop training for at least one week (except for loose leash walking - you can't let that go or it will be harder to fix. 

a. During that week, take some time to find some good training books - I like the ones that I suggested but there are others. Just be sure to buy some that are written by someone who has a degree in behaviorism, ethology, psychology, etc.. 
I really think you should get the calming signals book

b. You and Sarma can just take a break and relax during this time. Like the other poster said, you should definately reward desirable behavior during this time - when she approaches, when she looks directly at you, when she walks by your side, etc.. 

2. When you start back training, keep sessions extremely short. No more than 5 mintues total during the entire day - spread out through the entire day in 1 minute sessions. But sure to use some techniques that you learned about from some experts. It's hard to say what (if anything) you are doing wrong right now, since we can't see you. 
But you can compare what the books say against what you are doing.

3. When you get frustrated, quit. Pick it up later or the next day.

4. When Sarma displays calming signals, quit. Pick it up later and/or try another method that doesn't stress him.

Now, I really hesitate to mentioned this last part. But I'm going to go ahead and say it.
Look into hiring a trainer to help you with some techniques.

I really hesitate because unfortunately, there are still a lot trainers out there who advocate adversive methods. As evidenced by my own personal experience and as evidenced by some of the posts I've seen. i.e. one person posted that a trainer told him to smear hot sauce on his hands to stop puppy nipping 

I also hesitate because any person can legally call him/herself a trainer without any credentials at all.

And I hesitate because you have a special needs dog.

Since you have a special needs dog, here is what I would look for.

All of this is my opinion

Someone who has an advanced degree in psychology, ethology, behaviorism etc..*
I know, I know, there are some stupid people with degrees and there are plenty of great people without degrees, but this is just one thing to look for; and an advanced degree tells you that this person has done some studies.

Someone who has some experience with shy dogs

My own personal red flags - words that if i heard, would make me run away and look for another trainer
- you are too soft
- you aren't being hard enough
- you need to show him who's boss
- the dog is dominant.
- the dog is stubborn
- the dog is spiteful


These words aren't always bad, but they do raise my hackles when I hear trainers use them. I would just exercise caution
- corrections
- control
- we use a variety of methods.

Now all of the above were merely the opinion of an anonymous person on the internet. 

Ian Dunbar has some great info on his Assocation of Pet Dog Trainer's website:
How to search for a trainer, a list of registered trainers, etc..
http://www.apdt.com/

Oh. One more thing.
There is no rush. It took me two months to teach Puddin how to lay down (this is before I knew about shaping) and I didn't feel the least bit bad about that. 

If it had taken 4 months, what was the harm? If she had never learned it, but she was happy and comfortable, what is the harm?

There is no time limit. You have all the time in the world.


----------



## zgomot (Mar 11, 2009)

Thanks for such wonderful advice!

Indeed we are in no hurry, I'll take it slow and study some more.

I am at a slight disadvantage because I live in Romania, where Amazon won't send any of the books you suggested. Then, regarding trainers, I don't think there are that many, if at all, that use positive reinforcement techniques and even if there were, I wouldn't be able to afford it.

I will find a way to get those books and do all the training myself. Good I am calm and patient by default.

Regarding me mentioning being on a lot of other forums, I should have mentioned those have nothing at all to do with dogs - this is the only dog forum I read and post on.



Puddin's Training Tips said:


> Are you squatting down directly in front of the dog, looking directly at the dog, with your arms open? This is uncomfortable for most dogs, especially shy ones.


Actually, I am doing exactly that, how else should I position myself?

One more thing, Sarma, or Sârmă (spelled: surmuh) how it's correctly written in Romanian is a HE.


----------

