# Taping ears down.



## HayleyMarie

So Pans ears are pretty rose snapped right now so I have decided to tape them down so they hopefully will lay flat. Anyone experienced with taping ears flat? What age did you start? What method and materials did you use?

Thanks guys


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## Echofox

Good luck with that !  Mother Nature probably has a different plan.


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## georgiapeach

Here's a site for boxers, but it would work for any drop eared dog I would think. http://www.raevon.net/TAPING.html. "Fly" ears happens a lot when puppies are teething.


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## Sparkles123

Why would you want to torture that cute dog?


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## Graco22

What breed? What age? Current photo of the head and ears from straight on, and I can offer help.


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## Kayota

Sparkles123 said:


> Why would you want to torture that cute dog?


How is taping the ear torture...? It doesn't hurt them...


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## Sparkles123

Let me tape yours down for a while!


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## CptJack

Sparkles123 said:


> Let me tape yours down for a while!


...It really doesn't bother the dog. Can you wear a band-aid? It's about the same level of thing. I don't even know what you're thinking of here.


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## Kayota

A dog's ears are a LOT more flexible than a humans... Not the same.


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## PatriciafromCO

Not sure what rose snapped means and which breed it goes to...  know a collie breeder that would glue the tips down in her pups as soon as they stood, very young age, as they were not old enough to go to their new homes yet.


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## CptJack

PatriciafromCO said:


> Not sure what rose snapped means and which breed it goes to...  know a collie breeder that would glue the tips down in her pups as soon as they stood, very young age, as they were not old enough to go to their new homes yet.












Those are Rose ears.

Or to use one of my own images:


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## Crantastic

Sparkles123 said:


> Let me tape yours down for a while!


I'm used to seeing people vehemently oppose ear cropping, but this is the first time I've seen someone upset over taping ears! Wow.


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## CptJack

Crantastic said:


> I'm used to seeing people vehemently oppose ear cropping, but this is the first time I've seen someone upset over taping ears! Wow.


Yeah, I don't even know how you can get worked up about that one. It seems annoying for the owner, and to be honest I THOUGHT about taping Thud's down in an attempt to avoid what they're doing now, but in the end it wasn't worth it for ME. 

But I figure the ability to fold, flop, bend, and twirl their ears without causing distress means taping them down rates at negative zero on the scale of annoyance for the dog.


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## PatriciafromCO

Thanks CptJack,, I also looked at georgiapeach link.. Can see it will depend on the actual ear construction over all for what your able to get in results.


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## HollowHeaven

I don't see the harm in it but...

what's the point? I mean... are they supposed to flop?


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## amymoonan

I hope my shepard mix's ears stand they flop lol


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## Laurelin

HollowHeaven said:


> I don't see the harm in it but...
> 
> what's the point? I mean... are they supposed to flop?


You can tape ears to be pretty much any shape. I know people that have taped prick ears, drop ears, semi-prick, etc. Why? Some people prefer a certain ear set in their breed or a certain ear set is required by standard. Or they have a dog with two different earsets and want both their ears to match.

We tried taping Nikki's ears and failed. Trey came to us with taped ears and they were pretty much done when we got him (11 months). Once the tape fell off we just left them alone and his ear set was perfect. Most shelties have their ears taped.

I am not sure I'd tape ears again but it really did not seem to bother the dogs.


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## Loki Love

HollowHeaven said:


> I don't see the harm in it but...
> 
> what's the point? I mean... are they supposed to flop?


I know that in the Dane world, people will tape the natural ears down to help correct/adjust the ear set so the ears will lay more naturally. Sometimes the ears get very wonky and end up staying that way if you don't tape them.


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## lil_fuzzy

I don't have a problem with ear taping from a welfare pov, or just because people prefer a certain type of ears, but it seems to me that if the reason for taping them is to meet the standard, isn't this counter productive? If you end up breeding a dog who didn't have the right ears they may produce puppies that don't have the right ears, and more taping is required. If the dog doesn't meet the standard, is it right to make it meet the standard by taping the ears?

In some breeds having the wrong ear set is a DQ fault, and if you then tape the ears to make them correct when otherwise you wouldn't even be able to show the dog, that seems to go against everything that breed standards and conformation is all about. How is this different from dying a dog to change its markings when otherwise you wouldn't be able to show it due to a fault?


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## Loki Love

lil_fuzzy said:


> If the dog doesn't meet the standard, is it right to make it meet the standard by taping the ears?


There's a lot more to a breed standard then just how the ears look. Again, my experience is only with Danes and most of the time it's just your average joe pet owner who is taping the ears down because they look wonky - nothing to do with showing, etc. That said, if someone wants to tape a show dog's ears down then I see nothing wrong with it - if it's helping to correct the way the ears look, where is the harm in that..? If the dog is structurally sound and meets the standard in other areas, then really - the ears looking a bit nicer shouldn't be a huge factor


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## sassafras

Just F-everyone's-I, the dog is question is a boerboel puppy, not the westie in HayleyMarie's avatar and signature.


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## lil_fuzzy

Loki Love said:


> There's a lot more to a breed standard then just how the ears look. Again, my experience is only with Danes and most of the time it's just your average joe pet owner who is taping the ears down because they look wonky - nothing to do with showing, etc. That said, if someone wants to tape a show dog's ears down then I see nothing wrong with it - if it's helping to correct the way the ears look, where is the harm in that..? If the dog is structurally sound and meets the standard in other areas, then really - the ears looking a bit nicer shouldn't be a huge factor


If ears weren't a big deal, faulty ears would be a dq'ing fault in some breeds. And there are also dq'ing or undesirable markings/colours in many breeds. But as long as the dog is sound and has a good temperament, it's ok to ignore the parts of the breed standard that doesn't suit you?

(I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious about the reasoning behind fixing parts of a dog that would otherwise disqualify it from being shown and bred).


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## Loki Love

lil_fuzzy said:


> I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious about the reasoning behind fixing parts of a dog that would otherwise disqualify it from being shown and bred


I can only speak on my own experiences, and what I've read/heard - but honestly, some people just prefer a nicer looking ear set over something that looks wonky and silly. Others may prefer the wonky look (and that's fine too). I don't even know that a wonky ear set would disqualify a Dane from the ring (but it would certainly be noted as a fault) - there are more important aspects to be looking at such as chest depth, angles, etc. I know if my Dane had wonky ears - I'd tape them down as I prefer the ears to lay more naturally against the head.

To me - the fawn's ears look much nicer than the merle's ears (sorry for the crazy image sizes!)


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## Laurelin

Personally I think it's silly that there are breeds where dogs HAVE to have ears taped to go in the ring. In shelties... pretty much all dogs have their ears taped. The 'natural' look will not win in a show ring. Very few dogs naturally have ears that are semi-prick and break in the right spot. In paps I've seen a few breeders here and there that tape dog ears and I hope it is never becomes common because the ears are such a characteristic of the breed. I wouldn't want to start having trouble with weak ear leather all the time.


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## georgiapeach

Loki Love said:


> I know that in the Dane world, people will tape the natural ears down to help correct/adjust the ear set so the ears will lay more naturally. Sometimes the ears get very wonky and end up staying that way if you don't tape them.


Same with boxers. Ear massage helps too, between tapings. Massage the cartilage at the tops of the ears gently down and forward for a few minutes with your thumbs. Many dogs grow to love this.


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## Crantastic

I have seen papillons who have had ears taped, too, and I can tell. The ears still look floppy to me, and usually still hang low. I agree that I hope this doesn't become common in the breed. 

Taping is only going to change ear type, not earset, though, right? Taping isn't going to move a dog's ears on its skull. If you breed a bad earset, there's no hiding that, really (although I have heard of papillon breeders who have tried by surreptitiously pulling on some of the ear fringe during a show).


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## SDRRanger

Is ear taping done when the animals are young or do people do it to any age dog?


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## Keechak

lil_fuzzy said:


> If ears weren't a big deal, faulty ears would be a dq'ing fault in some breeds. And there are also dq'ing or undesirable markings/colours in many breeds. But as long as the dog is sound and has a good temperament, it's ok to ignore the parts of the breed standard that doesn't suit you?
> 
> (I'm not having a go, I'm genuinely curious about the reasoning behind fixing parts of a dog that would otherwise disqualify it from being shown and bred).


I know this answer isn't perfectly related to your question but here it goes. In Aussies both a prick ear and an ear lacking lift are written as "Severe Faults", A severe fault is one that effectively eliminates the dog from ever winning in conformation even though he technically wouldn't be kicked out of competition. With that said, I bought Hawkeye from a breeder who bred his prick eared dam, why did I buy a puppy who came from a dog with such a terrible breed standard fault? Because she was superior in many other ways that made her "problem" a non issue for me. So I guess what I'm saying is if a dog is a superior specimen in other ways I wouldn't let something like ears stand in my way of breeding it. Although I would not try to strengthen the problem either by breeding two prick eared dogs together.


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## PatriciafromCO

SDRRanger said:


> Is ear taping done when the animals are young or do people do it to any age dog?


can only speak from my own experience.. gsd's done at a young age, ,, and you can only assist to build strength by rolling a big sloppy puppy.. uf the ears are not correct form, shape,setting rolling them will not make a difference they will not stand correctly or strong as an adult. And my own experience it is genetic,, easily corrected breeding to a stronger more correct ear line. True it is cosmetic but what is the purpose of taking the trouble of purchasing or breeding a purebred dog with specific characteristics if you don't find meeting those standards important to achieve


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## sassafras

SDRRanger said:


> Is ear taping done when the animals are young or do people do it to any age dog?


I think it has to be done while they are puppies. After a certain age (I don't know exactly where that line is) it's not effective.


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## Keechak

I think they only real way to see if it actually works is to take 10 Labradors and tape their ears up and then take 10 Siberian Huskies and tape their ears down, I think that would be the best way to determine weather any of it has any effect what so ever. 

Now to get a hold of these dogs for my experiment!


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## lil_fuzzy

Crantastic said:


> I have seen papillons who have had ears taped, too, and I can tell. The ears still look floppy to me, and usually still hang low. I agree that I hope this doesn't become common in the breed.
> 
> Taping is only going to change ear type, not earset, though, right? Taping isn't going to move a dog's ears on its skull. If you breed a bad earset, there's no hiding that, really (although I have heard of papillon breeders who have tried by surreptitiously pulling on some of the ear fringe during a show).


Ah, I was getting ear type confused with ear set in my posts. I meant ear type.


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## lil_fuzzy

Keechak said:


> I know this answer isn't perfectly related to your question but here it goes. In Aussies both a prick ear and an ear lacking lift are written as "Severe Faults", A severe fault is one that effectively eliminates the dog from ever winning in conformation even though he technically wouldn't be kicked out of competition. With that said, I bought Hawkeye from a breeder who bred his prick eared dam, why did I buy a puppy who came from a dog with such a terrible breed standard fault? Because she was superior in many other ways that made her "problem" a non issue for me. So I guess what I'm saying is if a dog is a superior specimen in other ways I wouldn't let something like ears stand in my way of breeding it. Although I would not try to strengthen the problem either by breeding two prick eared dogs together.


I probably wouldn't let the wrong ear type stop me either, if the dog was superior in every other way. But that's because I don't care about showing, I'd only want to do sports. If I was after a show puppy, I would think it might be a bit risky to get a puppy from parents with a severe fault?


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## CptJack

lil_fuzzy said:


> I probably wouldn't let the wrong ear type stop me either, if the dog was superior in every other way. But that's because I don't care about showing, I'd only want to do sports. If I was after a show puppy, I would think it might be a bit risky to get a puppy from parents with a severe fault?


The thing is, even with conformation, something's always wrong - sometimes even severely faulted. Jack finished his CH, but his ears are BAD. 

But he's got a TON of good things going for him, that were wanted moving forward.

Breeding him to a bitch with great ears and weaknesses in areas where Jack was strong resulted in a next generation with better ears AND an improvement in the areas the bitch was weak. 

That's sort of the definition of striving to improve the breed - not just ears or appearance, obviously, but every generation becoming better. If a dog has a mismark or bad ears, then you need to know what you're breeding to, to improve those in your dog and to still pass on their strengths (conformation, working ability, size, coat type, whatever).


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## Crantastic

Yep, pretty much. No dog is perfect. Sometimes a dog will be near-perfect, but if you only bred those dogs, a breed would die out pretty quickly (or the gene pool would become a lot more shallow). The idea is to choose mates very carefully so that they enhance each others' good qualities and mitigate each others' bad. Got a dog with too much coat? Maybe breed to one with a lighter coat. Got a dog with a high earset? Breed to one with a lower earset. Hopefully you'll get a puppy that strikes that middle ground that you want.


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## lil_fuzzy

CptJack said:


> The thing is, even with conformation, something's always wrong - sometimes even severely faulted. Jack finished his CH, but his ears are BAD.
> 
> But he's got a TON of good things going for him, that were wanted moving forward.
> 
> Breeding him to a bitch with great ears and weaknesses in areas where Jack was strong resulted in a next generation with better ears AND an improvement in the areas the bitch was weak.
> 
> That's sort of the definition of striving to improve the breed - not just ears or appearance, obviously, but every generation becoming better. If a dog has a mismark or bad ears, then you need to know what you're breeding to, to improve those in your dog and to still pass on their strengths (conformation, working ability, size, coat type, whatever).


That makes sense. I just never thought a reputable breeder would breed a dog with a disqualifying fault, because that means the dog can't be shown, and then how do you prove that the dog is worthy to breed from? Fair enough if it's a working breed, then just get some working titles, but what if it's a non-working breed?

I know good breeders put a lot of thought into breeding, so it makes sense that things like this would happen if the breeder knows what they're doing and the dog is otherwise a really good dog. I guess I just need to adjust my view of what a good breeder is. I keep thinking that a good breeder would never breed a dog who hadn't proven itself in some way, but I have heard of breeders breeding a champion dog to a dog with no titles at all, and I always thought that was weird if they're supposed to be a good breeder.


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## Laurelin

Some faults and even DQs are ridiculously easy to breed away from. If you had a spectacular dog in every way but it was the wrong color (for example), why wouldn't you breed it?


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## Kyndall54

Ammy's ears have started to "fly" now between 5-7 months. I am going to tape her ears a little bit for the next couple of days to see if it will make a difference because I'd rather have this ear set... 



Than this.. 



It's just personal preference for me. Here's her and the foster I'm watching from yesterday


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## HollowHeaven

sassafras said:


> Just F-everyone's-I, the dog is question is a boerboel puppy, not the westie in HayleyMarie's avatar and signature.


Thanks for clarifying.
I thought she meant the dog in her signature and I was SEVERELY confused.


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## elrohwen

lil_fuzzy, I can see it form both sides. If you are taping ears, then you aren't necessarily breeding dogs with naturally good ears. 

On the other hand, if a dog is wonderful otherwise, isn't conformation, soundness, movement, and temperament more important than ear set? I personally wouldn't want to take good dogs out of the gene pool because their ears aren't perfect.

The point of the standard is to keep the breeding looking as it has always looked, and true to type. If ears and coat pattern are a part of that, then it's going to be very hard to get the breed club to change the standard. It still stands that some things are less of a priority to a breeder than others. And sometimes, the ears might not be a big part of the standard, but wonky ears stand out and are going to make it harder to get the dog placed in the show ring. Often ear type is a fault, not a disqualification - big difference. My dog's eyes are too round, which is a fault, but it doesn't disqualify him from the show ring. Eyes are also much harder to see from a distance than ear type which stands out.


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## Graco22

lil_fuzzy said:


> I don't have a problem with ear taping from a welfare pov, or just because people prefer a certain type of ears, but it seems to me that if the reason for taping them is to meet the standard, isn't this counter productive? If you end up breeding a dog who didn't have the right ears they may produce puppies that don't have the right ears, and more taping is required. If the dog doesn't meet the standard, is it right to make it meet the standard by taping the ears?
> 
> In some breeds having the wrong ear set is a DQ fault, and if you then tape the ears to make them correct when otherwise you wouldn't even be able to show the dog, that seems to go against everything that breed standards and conformation is all about. How is this different from dying a dog to change its markings when otherwise you wouldn't be able to show it due to a fault?


Ok, this would appear to make sense, however one must understand the process of growing cartilage. When a puppy starts teething, calcium from the cartilage in the ears (closest spot to the mouth) goes to the new forming teeth. This causes the ears to become limp and flacid. The ears can either start to droop, or lift. When teething is done, and the calcium goes back to the cartilage in the ears, the ear leathers firm back up and set. This can cause a dog that had correct ears as a puppy, to have floppy, flyaway or lifted ears.


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## Graco22

So setting, whether with glue or tape, does not change the location of the earset on the head. It simply keep the crease in the ear where it is, and is supposed to be, so that the ear doesnt form a new wrong crease, that causes the ears to stand too high, low or off to the side. Nothing rujns an expression to my eye like flyaway ears, or standing ears on a breed whose ears arent supposed to stand. The the OP I would ABSOLUTELY be gluing or taping the ears on a boerbel! They would look silly with flyaway ears, imo.


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## lil_fuzzy

Graco22 said:


> Ok, this would appear to make sense, however one must understand the process of growing cartilage. When a puppy starts teething, calcium from the cartilage in the ears (closest spot to the mouth) goes to the new forming teeth. This causes the ears to become limp and flacid. The ears can either start to droop, or lift. When teething is done, and the calcium goes back to the cartilage in the ears, the ear leathers firm back up and set. This can cause a dog that had correct ears as a puppy, to have floppy, flyaway or lifted ears.


I see, that makes more sense now


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## HayleyMarie

Wow sorry guys I don't check my thread in a few days and it explodes. Yes, Panzer is a boerboel pup. He will be 14 weeks on Monday. I've started tapping his ears down and already it's making a difference. Took the tape off on the weeknd because we where going camping. One ear stayed nice and floppy and the other one took too flying a little bit. I am trying a differnt method this time around. With boerboels flying ears dont disqualify a dog, but I can cause them to loose points when they get appraised. 

As a younger pup he had proper ear set, I am betting his ears are wonky because of teething not because of genetics.

This is the first method I used http://www.vonhobsonrotts.com/Ear_Taping.html

This is the second method I am using right now http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vriwjZB7X4Y


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## johnmcleren

I've never undergone such situation because they were in correct condition. But just on imagining of taping ears I feel how annoying it would be to the dog which may sometime leave scratches on their ear.


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## kbt_guy

Graco22 said:


> Ok, this would appear to make sense, however one must understand the process of growing cartilage. When a puppy starts teething, calcium from the cartilage in the ears (closest spot to the mouth) goes to the new forming teeth. This causes the ears to become limp and flacid. The ears can either start to droop, or lift. When teething is done, and the calcium goes back to the cartilage in the ears, the ear leathers firm back up and set. This can cause a dog that had correct ears as a puppy, to have floppy, flyaway or lifted ears.


Kerry ears are typically glued for this reason. Through the teething process, ears that were correct sometimes fly or sag and do not return to correct position after teething, so they are glued to insure the correct position. The adhesive sticks to the hair, not the skin, and as the hair grows it's pretty easy to clipper under the adhesive about once a month, get all the old glue off and reset them.

For our Kerry, I left the ears down for a few days at 8 months and kept an eye on them. In a few days one side started sagging, so I re-glued them and checked again at 9 months. One side started sagging again after about 4 days, so I glued them again. At 10 months, the set held.


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## zeronightfarm

Why is there a buch of new people commenting on this thread all of the sudden with negative feelings on this??


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## Indigo

Because this thread is probably coming up in a Google search.


Personally I've never felt that anything that has to be cosmetically altered should be in a breed standard, whether the look is traditional or not. It's not there in the genes, too bad so sad, it's not getting passed on genetically so it shouldn't be judged -- by judging cosmetically altered dogs we may be overlooking inheritable traits that are more important than this cosmetic trait that is apparently not important enough to breed towards anyway.


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## Graco22

Indigo said:


> Because this thread is probably coming up in a Google search.
> 
> 
> Personally I've never felt that anything that has to be cosmetically altered should be in a breed standard, whether the look is traditional or not. It's not there in the genes, too bad so sad, it's not getting passed on genetically so it shouldn't be judged -- by judging cosmetically altered dogs we may be overlooking inheritable traits that are more important than this cosmetic trait that is apparently not important enough to breed towards anyway.


Indigo, did you read why ears are taped/glued? It does not change the genetics factor...its just keeps the correct earset the dog was born with. You cannot tape or glue something to be different than genetics made it. Just keeps ears from standing up, etc because of the teething.


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## Keechak

Graco22 said:


> Indigo, did you read why ears are taped/glued? It does not change the genetics factor...its just keeps the correct earset the dog was born with. You cannot tape or glue something to be different than genetics made it. Just keeps ears from standing up, etc because of the teething.


You can certainly get a Dobermans ears to stand up, granted only after taking off a significant chunk, but it does prove that you can train cartilage to grow a certain way other than what genetics intended.


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## Graco22

Keechak said:


> You can certainly get a Dobermans ears to stand up, granted only after taking off a significant chunk, but it does prove that you can train cartilage to grow a certain way other than what genetics intended.


 Yes, and danes, and pits, etc also, just as you can get button ears that start to lift to stay down. But you cannot change the earset. How and where the ears are positioned on the head. Even if a dogs ears are hanging or standing correctly for the breed, if the earset is off, its off. Nothing you can do.


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## Keechak

Graco22 said:


> Yes, and danes, and pits, etc also, just as you can get button ears that start to lift to stay down. But you cannot change the earset. How and where the ears are positioned on the head. Even if a dogs ears are hanging or standing correctly for the breed, if the earset is off, its off. Nothing you can do.


oh I thought Indigo was talking about ear carriage not set


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## sassafras

Ears don't have anything to do with teething.


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## Kayota

Why do breeders always say the ears change during teething?


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## sassafras

I don't know, maybe because ear changes and teething tend to coincide? 

But the adult teeth are fully formed long before teething actually occurs, there's no need for the body to mobilize calcium to form them. And even if there were, that's not how it works; how close or far something is doesn't make any difference in where calcium is taken from.


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## Kayota

Makes sense.


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## Keechak

Kayota said:


> Why do breeders always say the ears change during teething?


Because they do change during teething that's always been a fact for all of my dogs. However correlation doesn't mean causation, I haven't seen any real studies on the matter.


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## Vivyd

I would tape if I were you. Linken's ears started changing and I thought about taping but never followed through. Kind of regret it now. I think he looked cuter with button ears than he does with rose ears. I'll still love him to bits nonetheless. You can see the progression of the change when you look back through his photos...

Button ears





Then one of them lifted up....



Now they're both up


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## Vivyd

Still can't believe my girlfriend shaved him....his Mohawk fuzz better grow back


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## sassafras

Keechak said:


> Because they do change during teething that's always been a fact for all of my dogs. However correlation doesn't mean causation, I haven't seen any real studies on the matter.


I'm not sure what there is to study? It's an established fact that the adult teeth are fully formed with enamel completely in place well before teething. 

In fact, the dentin layer of the teeth grows throughout a dog's lifetime. So by the logic of "teeth need calcium, ears fall," the ears would never go back up - they'd always need to be mobilizing materials from the ears. Although it's also a well established fact that the body does not mobilize needed materials based on how close or far the supply and demand is. But you can't have it both ways - either teething affects the ears or it doesn't. And it doesn't. 

Just one of those things that someone once noticed a correlation, invented a reasonable-sounding explanation, and it's been passed down through the ages.


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## Keechak

I knew I didn't believe in the teeth taking calcium from the ears and now I have a reason for not believing in it other than just "well because", thanks Sass.


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## Kayota

I always assumed it was because of the muscles or something... I think it sounds really weird to say that the teeth "take calcium" from anywhere.


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## Graco22

That POV is interesting Sass. I have been googling since I read your post, and not finding much info, unfortunately. I have always been told by breeders, that the teething/calcium issue was why ears life (or droop) and generally, after teething is done, the ears are usually set where they are going to be, and not much more can be done at that time. I wonder if the calcium thing is a myth, what the corrolation is to the teething process? Off to google some more. If I find any info, I will share it.


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## sassafras

I wish I could link, but I actually asked a couple of veterinary dentists to confirm that the teeth are formed before teething just to make sure I wasn't really off base before I said anything. Unfortunately it was on a subscription site so I can't link to it.


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## HollowHeaven

Vivyd said:


>


Puppy looks like he's so proud of himself over something. xD


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## Christene

Sparkles123 said:


> Let me tape yours down for a while!


Okay? It would be fine because it doesn’t hurt.


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## RonE

You're responding to a 12-year-old thread. Please don't do that. It causes confusion and is a waste of your time.


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