# How to fix a sloppy puppy sit



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I taught my puppy to sit with the old lift-treat-over-dog's-head method, and he always rolled onto his haunches. I didn't think anything of it, I figured he would grow out of it.

He is 8 months old today, and still does it. I recently learned that this is actually a bad habit, and not something he will grow out of.

I have been luring him forward and clicking when he sits properly, but as soon as the treat is gone and he relaxes he rolls back. Just wondering if there are any cool tricks for teaching a proper sit when a bad sit is this ingrained in him?

I know it doesn't really matter, but it just looks sloppy.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The reason the sloppy sit is a bad habit is because it will lead to a broken sit (into a down) in a long sit stay in the ring. Nothing to do with how it look.. just over on a haunch _invites_ the dog to lie down. Rolled back leads to over on a haunch.

The way I have fixed this is to get a wobble board and have the dog sit on that. When he rolls back, the board does as well and the dog needs to sit back up straight to prevent the roll back. The wobble board is something agility people use with puppies to get them used to the feel of a teeter. It is a piece of plywood with either a small piece of PVC pipe attached to the center OR a ball. For the sloppy sit, the PVC pipe is better as the board will tend to wobble in one direction. You have the dog sit on the board with his but at the center and the if the dog sits correctly, the front feet will hold the board slightly tilted toward the front with the front edge on the ground and the back edge off the ground. When the dog goes to roll back, the front edge of the board comes off the ground as it rolls back and throws the dog off balance.. and he must recover by sitting back up straight. 

The dog does need a fool proof sit. 

Another thing you can do is to stand behind the dog when he is sitting with a foot on either side of him so he is modeled into a square sit with his back to you. I do not find this as workable and I have not found the dog trains as well as with the wobble board. 

Last, but not least, is using oppositional reflex with the leash.. pull on the leash (flat collar) when the dog is in sit so he fights to retain the sit. If he goes to slop back or over, you can sometimes use oppositinal reflex to get him to self correct back up. 

OR you can change the command cue to some other word and retrain the sit from the ground up.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

That's really cool, thanks I don't have regular access to a wobble board, so I think I will make my own.


----------



## I-Love-Autumn (Mar 4, 2011)

That IS cool. I've never heard of a wobble board, and don't need one as my dogs sit well and I don't do club obedience any more, but I am storing that information! I even just like the sound of it - wobble board...lol. Very clever concept.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> The reason the sloppy sit is a bad habit is because it will lead to a broken sit (into a down) in a long sit stay in the ring. Nothing to do with how it look.. just over on a haunch _invites_ the dog to lie down. Rolled back leads to over on a haunch.
> 
> The way I have fixed this is to get a wobble board and have the dog sit on that. When he rolls back, the board does as well and the dog needs to sit back up straight to prevent the roll back. The wobble board is something agility people use with puppies to get them used to the feel of a teeter. It is a piece of plywood with either a small piece of PVC pipe attached to the center OR a ball. For the sloppy sit, the PVC pipe is better as the board will tend to wobble in one direction. You have the dog sit on the board with his but at the center and the if the dog sits correctly, the front feet will hold the board slightly tilted toward the front with the front edge on the ground and the back edge off the ground. When the dog goes to roll back, the front edge of the board comes off the ground as it rolls back and throws the dog off balance.. and he must recover by sitting back up straight.
> 
> ...


Another idea is using fast scoot fronts to encourage a *fast*, tucked sit.


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

At our obedience class, a young lady with a Rottie was upset about his sloppy puppy sit. One of the trainers simply had her lure him forward slightly until he was sitting properly and then treat. He will only get treats when in the proper sit position. By the end of class he was already improving on his sit although I'm sure it will take time.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Another idea is using fast scoot fronts to encourage a *fast*, tucked sit.


I did this, and he bunny hopped nicely into a tucked sit repeatedly, but as soon as I ran out of treats he relaxed and rolled back.



FlashTheRottwuggle said:


> At our obedience class, a young lady with a Rottie was upset about his sloppy puppy sit. One of the trainers simply had her lure him forward slightly until he was sitting properly and then treat. He will only get treats when in the proper sit position. By the end of class he was already improving on his sit although I'm sure it will take time.


This is what I have been doing too, and it seems to be slowly sinking in. I have been monitoring all his sits the last couple of days (at the door, while waiting for something etc) and he seems to sometimes sit nicely, and even when he is rolled back he is slightly more forward than what he has been. So maybe it's all processing in his head and he will get there if I just keep doing what I am doing.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I did this, and he bunny hopped nicely into a tucked sit repeatedly, but as soon as I ran out of treats he relaxed and rolled back.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I have been doing too, and it seems to be slowly sinking in. I have been monitoring all his sits the last couple of days (at the door, while waiting for something etc) and he seems to sometimes sit nicely, and even when he is rolled back he is slightly more forward than what he has been. So maybe it's all processing in his head and he will get there if I just keep doing what I am doing.


I've read (not personally witnessed) that some dogs need "muscle memory" to sit straight where others do it naturally. I've got poor posture myself, so for me to sit or stand properly is something I have to constantly be aware of and remind myself to do. Other people have good posture and never give it a second thought. When I was learning how to execute a front cross in agility, it took many many many repetitions for it to flow naturally without me even thinking about it. But it was a long time before I go that point, so probably continuing to reward for tucked sits will be your best bet


----------



## Shandwill (Jul 23, 2010)

Not to hijack your thread, but... 
On a related note, is there any tricks to getting a dog to lay 'square' with their paws under the "corners" of their body rather than laying over on one hip?


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

There is

Personally I prefer to shape or capture behaviours, so if your dog naturally does it, just capture it with a clicker and reward. Soon enough the dog will deliberately do it just for the reward, and then you can put it on cue. And just don't reward the relaxed downs, or alternatively, put that on a different cue.

If you want to lure it, start with the dog in a stand, and the treat at the dogs nose. Move the treat down under the nose, towards the dog chest, and then sort of push the dog backwards and down (not actual pushing, the dog should follow the treat back and down). With this method they *sometimes* roll over on their hip anyway, but just don't reward that and simply try again. If he's always rolling onto the hip when you do it, more often than going down straight, try adjusting your luring slightly. Like if he always rolls onto the right hip, try luring slightly to your left (his right), etc.

The front of the dog will go down first, and you might get a playbow, just don't give the treat (or click) until the backend starts to go down and is committed to going all the way down. You want to reward while going down, because you want the dog to remember how it got into that position.

To make it extra fun, see if you can get the dog to lie down like that and get back up in the stand without moving its paws



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I've read (not personally witnessed) that some dogs need "muscle memory" to sit straight where others do it naturally. I've got poor posture myself, so for me to sit or stand properly is something I have to constantly be aware of and remind myself to do. Other people have good posture and never give it a second thought. When I was learning how to execute a front cross in agility, it took many many many repetitions for it to flow naturally without me even thinking about it. But it was a long time before I go that point, so probably continuing to reward for tucked sits will be your best bet


I know what you're saying, my other dog has a beautiful sit, all square and nice, and she even tucks forward into her sits naturally, I never taught her to do that


----------



## Shandwill (Jul 23, 2010)

I tried luring, and it worked for a second, then she flopped over.  We'll keep working on it! I tend to think that her size and puppy-goofiness makes some things a little more difficult for her, but she'll get it eventually.



lil_fuzzy said:


> To make it extra fun, see if you can get the dog to lie down like that and get back up in the stand without moving its paws


This is my ultimate goal...sounds like LOADS of fun. Ugh. Thanks!


----------



## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

Have you done any training in 'drive'? Worked beautifully for Batty for both a sloppy sit & drop/down. 

He will literally throw his body down for a drop, squared, even and ready for the next command, and every sit is straight, poised and ready to go. 

Alternatively, I only ever reward proper sits. I don't bother to lure to the correct position, just give a NRM, move away a bit and try again for a better one. 

So it goes "Batty, Sit", he sits but is slumped onto one side. "Uh-uh, Batty, Come" we move away from where we were (so he has to get up) then "Sit" he sits properly, "YES, Good Boy, Well Done" give treat. It took three days with about 4 sessions per day before he had it down pat. Now every sit is picture perfect lol.

I use the clicker, a conditioned reinforcer and a release command. Ie: Yes and the treat does not mean that Batty can get up and walk around, he gets "free" as a release command. This way just because he's been praised he believes it's in his best interest to stay where he is, in that position as it does lead to more treats!


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

A&B said:


> *Have you done any training in 'drive'? Worked beautifully for Batty for both a sloppy sit & drop/down.
> 
> He will literally throw his body down for a drop, squared, even and ready for the next command, and every sit is straight, poised and ready to go. *
> 
> ...


That's how I got a sphynx down with my GSD. We would get going with the flirt pole (his absolute favorite toy), and play "red light green light." Free to run, chase, etc, then I'd put the pole straight in the air and give him the "down" signal. He learned the faster he hit down, the faster he'd be released, so he'd slam into a down, fold-back style (front end down first). 
I know someone who taught her dogs that a simple "down" means sphynx down. When the dog is going to be there for awhile, she says "on your hip". They roll onto their hip and are allowed to get more comfortable. (If only I had that ambition). xD


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Yep, he does perfect sits in drive, but again, as soon as he sits for more than two seconds he relaxes and rolls back. He always starts off sitting properly, and then always rolls back.


----------

