# New Rescue Dog - Sweet Guy but Concerns/Issues



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Looking for a bit of insight and/or advice.

I adopted a rescue dog over the weekend. Their guess is that he is about 1 year old - he definitely still has puppy energy. Argo/Argos (haven't fully decided) is a chocolate Lab mix. The rescue acted like he was a pure-bred, which is nuts because his ears and snout are not Lab. I'll take him to the vet soon, but my guess is he is part terrier (possibly Pit) based on the ears and wrinkles on the snout/forehead.

He is an absolute sweetheart though. He seemed drawn to me when I first met him and clearly has taken to me once I brought him home. There are a few things that I've learned/noticed that concern me. I do plan on taking him to obedience classes within the next few weeks, but I'm looking for some advice to start improving his behaviour sooner. How long should I wait before beginning classes?

1. I do not think he has ever lived in a structured house before. The rescue I got him from rescued him from the pound, and he was not fostered. He lived with a bunch of dogs at the rescue's farm type setting. He drinks from my toilets, for example, and seems to have trouble just existing - he doesn't seem to enjoy just sleeping/resting near me. I'm not sure if this is a comfort issue or due to past experiences. Fortunately he does understand 'NO' so he isn't causing major problems, but I think his previous situation is going to make adjustment tough for both of us.

It's clear (from my observations while there and his later behaviour) that he was overstimulated at the rescue. When inside the house humans paid attention to him non-stop and there were plenty of other dogs around. Yesterday he was less nervous at my house, but still had trouble really settling. He always wants to play and seeks my attention. I bought him a bone yesterday to occupy him so I could have a bit of time to myself (eat dinner, etc.). He loved the bone and chewed on it on and off throughout the evening and even this morning while I got dressed. However, when not distracted by one of his toys or the bone, he always seeks attention from me. Which leads me to...

2. He suffers from a bit of separation anxiety. They told me he was crate trained, but I don't think he is fully. He already knows what the crate is and fights me going in. I do leave him a kong when I go to work and at night the crate is a few feet from my bed. When crated he does whine a bit initially but eventually settles down. He is restless by morning so I've had to get up a bit earlier than intended but I'm hoping that will improve as he becomes more comfortable. He hasn't peed in the crate yet, although his early morning pees are insanely long (makes me worry he might be holding it too long?). I try to give him a final pee around 11pm before putting him to bed. My ideal wake-up is around 7-730. Is 8 hours too long? He has peed in the house twice, but once I didn't see the signals and the other was right when he first came home. He now has bushes in the yard he uses, but I still feel like I have to watch him closely to make sure he doesn't go in the house. He doesn't go to the door to show me he needs out, probably because he always stays with me upstairs. I'm not sure how to ensure he shows me he needs to go.

He always wants to be with me though. This morning he was eating his breakfast and I left the room to use the washroom. Within a few seconds I heard him bolt into the hallway to come find me. Once he knew where I was he went back to the den and continued eating. The first day I crated him while I showered but this morning I left him loose. He sat just outside the bathroom and watched the shower curtain area most of the time. If he left my sight he would return instantly when I called his name.

Yesterday I was insanely impressed. I left him crated when I went to work but he managed to escape (I've since figured out how). I'm not sure how long he was out, but it could have been several hours. He did pee on a carpet, which I expected, but otherwise he was a good boy. He did chew on a Swiffer handle I left on a table and he destroyed the pom pom on a winter hat, but he did not chew/destroy furniture or anything that didn't resemble a toy. For his first day at home alone (and loose), I was extremely impressed and am happy that I will be able to trust him. I plan on eventually gating him in the den area while I'm at work instead of crating, so yesterday gave me a bit more confidence that he can handle that soon.

3. One of my biggest problems right now is that he clearly regards me as a playmate and not someone in charge. I think this is partially a product of how humans interacted with him at the rescue. They play fought with him all the time and did not discourage mouthing and other mannerisms. If I sit on the couch, he will routinely come to me and expect me to play. He will put his paw on me or even push at my hands with his paw/nose. He also mouths my hands a bit, although I've started to try and correct that. He isn't aggressive at all, but I think it's clear he is being dominant. When sitting on the couch he will sometimes try to climb up on me and stand across me horizontally or even put his paws over my shoulder(s). 

I'm aware I can't tolerate this behavior. The first day I wasn't quite sure what it meant but after reading more about it I know to discourage it. I'm still working on how to do it.

If I ignore him for a while he will find a toy to play with, but he seldom settles and relaxes. If it does he changes spots/positions frequently. If I pet him, even to say 'good boy' while he's relaxing, he immediately sees it as a signal to play. I've stopped petting him in those situations but I'm not sure how to change how he interprets my actions.

Similarly, he is quite poor on a leash. He was better today than yesterday and has moments where he walks well, but still pulls at scents and it's clear he believes he is in charge. He almost knows his new name, but often won't respond when distracted. I give him a 15-20 minute walk in the morning plus ~10 minutes of play (ie. fetch) in the yard before work. Evenings are similar although I want to extend the walk. I think his restlessness in the evening could be due to extra energy, although I did spend a lot of time trying to tire him his first day and he still seemed good to go. But that might have been nerves.

I know this is a ramble but I wanted to get my thoughts down. He's a really sweet dog who loves to give kisses and is clearly going to make a great companion. I'm a little overwhelmed because of other life issues happening right now, but I really want to give him a good home while ALSO ensuring he transitions into a well behaved dog.

Main concerns are:

1. Separation anxiety
2. Dominance / pack leadership
3. Loose leash training

I've read up on these issues and have an idea of how to start working with him before classes, but I'm still interested in advice/information. Especially since these issues sort of overlap and I'm unsure how to tackle them collectively and/or in what order.

Would love some feedback.

Thanks.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm about to run to a meeting, but I can assure you that just about everything you've read about dominance and pack leadership is wrong (unless it's saying that it's out-dated and based on faulty science). Here's a good piece on leadership: Should You Always Eat Before Your Dog?

It will mostly just take some time - a few weeks, 2 months - for your new pup to settle in. For now, put him on an eating / eliminating schedule, work on bonding with him (e.g., playing, walking, some simple basic training), and manage his environment so he has no option but to make the right choice (e.g., put tempting foods completely out of reach, lock up the garbage can, put down the toilet seat).


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

1. Drop the dominance/pack theory idea. Train the habits and commands you want him to learn and what works for your house/routine and you'll be fine. He isn't trying to take over the house, he's a young dog that wants to have fun and get attention from his new person. If you want to play with him, then play with him when he nudges at you. If you don't want to play, then teach him to lay on a dog bed or in his crate with the door open and chew on a treat. 

2. I wouldn't worry about separation anxiety at this point. He's very very new to you and it is normal for a new dog to be a little less confident of his surroundings. Following you around can be a combination of "Hey, something fun might happen or there might be food, I'd better stick close so I don't miss it" and "Gotta keep an eye on things until I figure this place out"
My foster dog for example will follow me from room to room all evening but if I put her in the dog room, she'll lay on the couch and look out the window calmly. the following is just "What's going on?" basically.

3. Close your toilet lids and the dog won't drink out of them  To broaden that, manage his environment to set him up for success and you won't need to use the word NO very often at all. Crate training is great as is later keeping him in a dog-safe room with little items picked up etc. 

4. He needs more exercise in the evenings. The morning short walk and play time is good, but after he's sleeping and lazing around all day, he's going to have built up energy. Try for 45 minutes minimum of walking, 1 hour is better and mix in a few 5-10 minute training sessions (tire out his mind). If the weather is bad and you cannot get that much walking in, then play games in the house like hide-and-seek (for treats or toys or him finding you even) and training (teach sit, stay, come and lie down and then add tricks like shake or roll over etc)

5. I like "penalty yards" for loose leash walking, I think there are some YouTube videos on it. Basically if the dog starts to pull, you turn and go the other direction until he stops pulling, praise him and then turn back around and walk forward again. Repeat over and over and over and over until the dog realizes that pulling gets him nowhere fast.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks for the replies.

Overall you confirmed a lot of what I was thinking. I grew up with dogs (Lab mixes) but this is the first I'm raising on my own. I just want to clearly understand what behaviours are due to comfort/new environment and which are behaviours I should begin correcting immediately.

I agree that longer walks in the evening are going to be key. There is a huge storm coming tonight so we'll see what we can get in before it hits haha.

Overall he is a really nice guy. I don't know much about his past, but he really seems like he's going to be a great friend. I suppose I'm just unsure how much I should put on him right away. Should I wait a few weeks before starting classes?

He already knows sit quite well, but does not know stay or down. Should I start spending time with him on these new commands right away?

Like I said, I'm mostly just concerned with giving him the space/time to adjust to his new home without creating acceptance of bad behaviours that I'll have to retrain later. Will continue to read up on different ideas. 

Still open to more advice/info though. Thanks again.

Edit: For walks, I definitely want him to learn loose leash walking. I've started working on it a bit right away but I did allow him plenty of freedom to explore since he was experiencing so many new things. If I'm taking him out for 45-60 minutes in the evening, should I be trying to enforce loose leash manners immediately? 

Also, how long is too long in a crate? Overnight I expect him to be crated 7-8 hours and probably the same during the work day. I can come home for lunch sometimes but I don't want to get expect me home at that time.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I'd wait a few weeks for classes and work on building a bond with him so that once you get to the more distracting location of a dog class, he can focus on you better and has a little bit of basic manners.

For walks, try playing with him in the yard first to burn a little energy and then walking. There are multiple schools of thought on training loose leash while still trying to get a full walk in. One way is to spend say the first 10 minutes of each walk practicing loose leash and then kinda let him explore for the rest of the walk. Then gradually increasing the time on LLW. This will take longer to sink into his head that he needs to walk nicely but on the other hand, he'll be getting more exercise on longer walks.
Or you spend the first couple weeks making every single walk a training walk and be 100% diligent about using your preferred loose leash walking method (penalty yards, "be a tree" or whatever). The walks tend to be less productive for exercise and more tiring for the human but the dog tends to learn the leash rules faster.

I start teach sit, stay and down right from the start. I like to use the dog's dinner meal as training treats and feed a few pieces of the dry food at a time for each command. 

8 hours in a crate is fine for a 1 year old dog. Personally, I'd work towards leaving him uncrated at night (they tend to get into less trouble at night and you're home to hear him if he starts to wander around or gets restless) so that he's only in a crate a total of 8 hours daily. 

Don't let him get away with bad habits that will annoy you later just because he is new, but have patience with him while he's learning what he should and shouldn't do. Instead of telling him what not to do ("NO"), tell him what he should be doing. Ask for an incompatible action. For example, if he's jumping on you, ask him to sit. If he's trying to sneak into the garbage can, say "leave it" and then ask him to come to you. (And then put the garbage can behind a closed door  )


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

At this point, he's really just settling in and I think you should keep your expectations super low. Work on house training, and crate training, and otherwise let him just figure things out.

As others mentioned, dominance with dogs isn't a thing. He's demanding attention because being an only dog in a house with his own person is new for him. If you don't want him to paw you, don't pet him when he paws. Wait until he's being polite and then pet him. You don't need to "correct" anything he's doing at this point, just show him what works for getting your time and attention and ignore what you don't like. He's figuring you out and you're figuring him out - dogs don't come pre-programmed to know that humans find some things annoying and other things appropriate. Training takes months and months, and bonding takes time, so don't worry too much about having to correct every single annoying behavior right now. Unless he's doing something potentially dangerous, just be gentle and gradually show him the correct way to go about things.

It's up to you whether you think he can handle an obedience class right now. I would give him at least a week or two, but beyond that it's dog dependent. If he seems like he's fairly comfortable with you out and about, then go for it. You can start teaching sit/down/stay and the basics, but keep it fun and don't expect "obedience" right away. Teach him that learning and training with you is the best game ever and you'll be setting him up for success.

If he's a horrible walker, you can use a management tool like a front clip harness for longer walks, while you work on training in your yard. What methods are you using? It's often impossible for a brand new dog to focus on loose leash walking in an exciting and stimulating environment, but if you never leave the yard they can't get enough exercise, so finding a method or tool that works for you is important. 

Overnight in the crate shouldn't be an issue for an adult dog, but there's also nothing wrong with taking him out a little earlier if he needs it right now. In time his house training will get better and he will learn to hold it over night.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks for the tips. I'm just trying my best to get a handle on him and his behaviours while he settles into his new home. It sounds like there's no reason to worry and I should just focus on a few things to correct/teach while letting him get comfortable with me and his new surroundings. 

One thing that does interest me is his reaction to petting.

As I mentioned, if he is relaxing next to me and I pet him (whether I speak to him or not) he sees it as a signal to play. When I first brought him home he also seemed jumpy if I'd pet him without him seeing it coming. For example, if he was looking in one direction or chewing a toy and I stroked his back, he would sometimes flinch when I made first contact. He never growled or pulled away or anything like that - he just seemed unsure about the contact. He's getting better over time as he grows more comfortable with me. I can pet him while he eats or chews a toy and he seems fine with it. I can also take toys and bones from his mouth and put my hand in his food dish so he isn't guarding. 

I'm curious about this. I imagine he isn't used to being petted for no reason since at the rescue physical contact was possibly always an indication of play. With this and the flinching combined, do you guys have any suggestions about what causes that behaviour and how I can help him adjust (assuming there is something I'm not doing).

Thanks again


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Sounds like he's just undersocialized and not used to much human contact.

Also, I would avoid putting your hand in his bowl or actively taking toys for now as this can teach guarding behavior.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ya, I only did it once with his food and once with his bone to check for any problematic tendencies. Thankfully, he's shown no signs of aggression or guarding. In fact, although he's a water fiend and drinks from his dish, his first meal at home he seemed unsure about the bowl (or something) so I fed him food from my hand until he started using the bowl. Really gentle. Still seems unsure of it, although I don't know why (same exact bowl as his water dish but the water one is black and food is red) - colour maybe?


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I have a different opinion about training classes. I agree to wait a week or two, but If you have an opportunity now, vs. 4 weeks from now, I'd suggest taking classes now.

Labs are typically not very food reactive with people, so it sounds like he was well treated. In any case, his personality may change somewhat in a couple of weeks when he relaxes and settles into your routine. It'll be positive, although it may be more energetic. 

As far as bad weather, my Lab mix, Shep, loves rain and storms. Not me, but I'll put on a rain coat and take an umbrella, and go slogging in the rain. Then, I have to dry off a soaking wet dog. Not difficult, just tedious to do this a few times a day. Cold weather is better than rain, b/c I don't have to dry him off, plus it's great to see him so frisky in the cold.

Petting could be a different issue. Shep is more than 10 yo and loves contact. But, if I touch his kidneys, even if he watches me, he'll jerk. No other reaction, but something I try to avoid. He also doesn't seem to like me to touch the tops of his feet... But he tolerates both annoyances. So, my suggestion with your dog is to stroke him, don't pat him, and watch where he doesn't like to be touched .... he may prefer to be rubbed or scratched on those areas.

One last thing .... As a Lab mix, he is a high energy athlete ... and he wants you to take him for a one hour run twice a day, and 15 min. before bed  He also wants a FULL bag of dogfood for each meal.... too bad, but he'll compromise. Two 30 min. walks twice a day and a 15 min walk just before bed may help things. Another thing that helped me was finding a high energy playmate for Shep to wrestle with once a week. That one hour wrestling match did more to drain off Shep's excess of energy than anything else I could do ... and I was jogging with him at the time. The key is finding a playmate with equal energy...


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Appreciate all the help.

I feel like he's settling in more and more, which is to be expected. Yesterday and today he's finally enjoying belly rubs and rolling for the rub itself. Before he used to see it as part of a game and would try to play with my hand. This morning he went into his crate on his own when he smelt the Kong I was handling at the crate door, and before that he sat next to me and watched me while I did my morning routine instead of running about. He's become pretty good about using the bathroom in the yard. In fact, on walks he often waits until we get back to the yard before he goes. Last night I opened the door and said 'Go pee' leashless for the first time (I'd been taking him out leashed prior) and he ran out, went to the bathroom and then ran back in.

He also did great with some basic restraint training last night and this morning. He seems quite smart and eager to please. Within a few tries he was responding to SIT and WAIT while I held treats in front of him (open and closed fist). He also held a WAIT with treats on the floor in front of him for 2-3 seconds, but still needs work there. He can't seem to grasp DOWN yet though haha, but I'm not trying to do too much at once.

About the only thing that I'm still trying to evaluate is his behaviour in the evenings. Last night he got a 40 minute walk + 15 minutes of fetch after work and then another 10 minute walk a bit later. He did settle a bit more than the previous night, but he doesn't seem used to quiet evenings. He will get up and change spots/positions often while relaxing. He also still tries to come climb on me when he wants to play. I'm trying to break this habit using the tree method and then rewarding him when he lies next to me calmly. I don't mind the playful climbing, but I'd prefer it was more on my terms. A product of his excited state is that he has to pee quite often. I have to take him out almost once an hour in the evenings because he is so worked up the whole time (even after long walk). He loves to play, which I don't want to discourage, but I obviously value some quiet time and I am curious about the best way to help him settle down in the evenings. Not just because I want the break, but because monitoring him for bathroom breaks is very time consuming lol. I've started to recognize his bathroom signal when on the main floor (he goes to the wrong door haha...) but when upstairs in my TV room it's a bit tougher. He did pee in the house last night once - he met a friend of mine for the first time and was over-excited the whole time she was over. His pees were so close together that I just didn't recognize or appreciate one of his bathroom signals.

Any ideas? I love that he is so playful and affectionate - he seems very attached to me. I know that his excited state could also be related to him growing into his new surroundings, but I'm wondering if there is anything I can do to help him out? I'll try to increase the walk/play time even more, but I might not have more than an hour on some evenings.

Thanks


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

He'll probably learn to relax a bit more in the evenings over the next few weeks as the novelty of being the center of attention wears off and he gets into a routine more. 

You're already rewarding calm behavior which is great. One of the keys to that is to gradually lengthen the amount of time you expect him to be calm before he gets the treat. 

Lots of dogs have a time of night where they go crazy with energy. It's often called the "zoomies" because the dog goes zoom zoom zoom around the house. Leaping on furniture, etc. Even well exercised dogs will do this. If you have a fenced yard, encourage him to zoom around there. I mention this just because even once he learns to settle in the evenings, he'll still likely have a bit of a wild energy burst and it doesn't really work to try to avoid it.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ah ya, good point.

Now that I can trust him to go in the yard on his own, that should help make his frequent bathroom breaks a little less intrusive. 

I was a little worried because the fence is 6 ft but he seems like a good jumper and there is a small dog in the yard next door. He met that dog (through the fence) for the first time yesterday and seemed OK with him. The other dog was barking in his face and Argo just sniffed at him a bit (no bad body language) before I took him inside.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Noticing some improvements but still some concerns with how he plays.

He mouthes... A lot. He also plays rough. When he plays he often tries to shove his face in yours with lots of licking and some nibbling. Even if I rub his belly he will try to shove his nose into my face if I'm within reach. He doesn't seem keen on settling or cuddling. He doesn't just sit and enjoy being stroked - he just wants to play and will turn those types gestures into a reason to climb on people.

I can't sit at my PC because he will just climb on the armrest to get to me. This morning I let him out of his crate early and invited to sleep with me and he just wanted to play. He'd climb on me and shove his nose into my face like above. If I buried my head he'd eventually stop but would still climb instead of settling or cuddling.

If I sit on my couch at the edge the cushion leaning forward he will ignore me and entertain himself. But if I even lean back (ie get comfortable) he will come climb. 

I dont have a problem with play but his play is rough, includes mouthing and seems to be one of the only interactions he seeks. I saw his environment at the rescue I adopted from and I know this type of play was encouraged. I also believe he had few real interactions with humans and all they did was play and overstimulate him. 

He's a great guy and quite smart but this stuff frustrates me. I can't really just exist because I have to be on guard all the time. I know it isn't his fault but I want to know how to help him break these habits. I also want to know which methods work best for discouraging mouthing. These 2 issues are the only things he really needs to work on, but they are basically unacceptable to me. Any advice?


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

The moment he starts mouthing/jumping, I would stop all interaction with him and leave the room/ignore him. Come back to it a while later and try to interact with him again. If he does it again, leave again. Or if he mouths you can offer him a toy instead to redirect him.

He sounds like he has a lot of energy. More exercise, maybe? I would also try petting him when he's asleep at first to get him used to being calmly petted.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Labs are mouthy and take quite a while to grow up. I agree with Taquitos' advice to cease interaction / leave the room if he starts to mouth or jump or beg for attention. Make sure he's getting enough physical and mental stimulation, too. 

Also, google "Kikopup settle" and "Tab289 relax" and you should find a few videos on teaching dogs to be calm. You can also give him something to do while you work. Stuffed, frozen Kongs, bully sticks, antlers, food-dispensing toys are all great tools for occupying your dog while you do something else.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Argo is making big progress in certain areas, and I'm also better able to identify situations that cause him problems. When around other people he is still very over excited. He wants to play with them constantly, which involves climbing and mouthing. I'm going to try keeping him leashed for these interactions for the next little while.

Around me he is becoming much calmer, at least for more consistent intervals, and the climbing/mouthing is improving. On Saturday and Sunday he spent time sleeping in the TV room near me - either next to me on the couch or on the floor in front of me. In fact, we both fell asleep in that room last night until I woke up and went to bed around 1am. I'm not sure if his ability to settle/rest is due to him settling or because he was happy that I was home most of the weekend, but either way it was a nice change of pace. Probably the first time I've been able to relax without watching him like a hawk all week.

Last night was also the first time I left him out of his crate at night. He did really well. When I first climbed into bed he did try to climb on me, but after pushing him away and burying my head he stopped and slept on the bed all night with no issues. In the morning, around his usual wake-up time, he sat next to the bed and gave a whine or two to show me he needed to go outside. I tried to get a bit more sleep after but he wasn't interested. Can't complain though - I'm glad it seems like I can trust him at night.

Now for the reason he slept with me - he has suddenly refused to go in his crate. The rescue I got him from said he was crate trained and it seemed so over the first few days. A few times he went in very willingly and a few others I had to coax. Saturday evening (for bed), Sunday afternoon (going out for lunch), Sunday evening (bed) and this morning (work) he refuses to go in his crate. I tried to lure him with his Kong but he wouldn't go. He'd just sit back across the room (10-15ft away) and bark at me, wagging his tag, and running to me then away. I know leaving him uncrated in response is bad because it shows him his refusal will work, but I'm not sure what to do to retrain him. I do not want to physically force him in. 

A family member suggested putting the crate in the den (where he eats) and feeding him inside the crate without closing it. I'm not sure he will go in though. I also thought if he did cooperate, perhaps I could try to give him his new toys and bones in there and not close the door. Or, eventually, close the door but stay in the room and read/watch TV. 

What do you guys suggest? I don't think he will destroy anything in the room I've left him in, but I can't be sure. However, I'm not sure I can trust him not to pee if left alone all day without his crate (like he will be today). When I first brought him home I did crate him a bit without leaving the house to help him get used to it, but I didn't get him at the ideal time. I wanted to get him on a Friday evening so I could spend a lot of time with him Friday and early Saturday before using late Saturday and most of Sunday for short crate training sessions. Instead I had to take him on a Sunday afternoon and had to leave him for 7 hours (work) the next day. I'm sure this didn't help because he was still very anxious and unsure at the time, but I don't know how to rebuild the training.

Ideas?

Thanks.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> A family member suggested putting the crate in the den (where he eats) and feeding him inside the crate without closing it. I'm not sure he will go in though. I also thought if he did cooperate, perhaps I could try to give him his new toys and bones in there and not close the door. Or, eventually, close the door but stay in the room and read/watch TV.


This is a good idea. Unless a dog is really scared of the crate, then I simply set the food bowl in the crate and let the dog choose to enter it and eat. It sounds like Argo just doesn't feel like being crated, not that he's really scared or stressed by it, so feeding meals and giving high value treats in the crate is a simple way to connect the crate with good things. 

Try luring him into the crate and closing the door briefly. While the door is closed, give him a small piece of cheese or meat (something smelly and yummy) and then open the door. If he exits the crate, ask him to get back in the crate, close the door and give him another treat. Repeat this several times but then after a few repeats, don't lure him into the crate with the food, just sit and wait for him to choose to enter to get the treat. It is helpful to have him on a leash so that he can't wander off. His choice is basically crate+treat or no crate+boring nothing. When he walks into the crate on his own choice, then jackpot treats (several small treats in a row) and praise happily.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Glad to hear Argo and you are doing well! This isn't a short-term solution, but _crate games_ are great for helping your dog learn to love his crate. Grr, I can't find a good description online; maybe someone else will have a good link.

My dog suddenly became afraid of her crate over the summer. We took a 3-week crate games class and I've continued to work with her, and she's gotten much better. It wasn't a short-term fix, though. 

Has he ever peed in the house? If he's gotten accustomed to eliminating outside and is old enough to have control over his bladder (at a year, he should), I don't think he should have an issue being out of his crate today. There has to be a first time being loose  I remember how anxious I was the first time we left Katie "loose" in a bedroom. My husband and I went to dinner, and I don't think I tasted anything I ate.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

cookieface said:


> Glad to hear Argo and you are doing well! This isn't a short-term solution, but _crate games_ are great for helping your dog learn to love his crate. Grr, I can't find a good description online; maybe someone else will have a good link.


I had typed this up before for another poster so here's a copy and paste:

Here’s how I learned crate games at a seminar:

Have a whole lot of small treats, the dog’s regular dry food if they are reasonably food motivated. They’re going to get treats regularly for over an hour of training so nothing that will upset the dog’s stomach. You can make a trail mix of cheese and meat and dry food to make it more motivating. You may also start with the less exciting food but up it to a natural balance roll or meat or similar high value treats at the training goes on to keep their attention.

Have a collar on the dog and a leash handy and have room around the crate to open the door completely and to step back 5-10 feet from the crate’s open door.

Lure the dog into the crate with food held outside of the crate high and to the back (wire crate obviously). With the food hand, start treating one piece at a time every few seconds. Only treat if the dog is not pawing at the bars, he can sit or stand but not be trying to get out. With the other hand, shut the crate door, latch it and reopen it. Here’s where you need some coordination—repeatedly shut, latch and open the door with one hand while giving a treat at the back of the crate with the other hand when the door is OPEN. The dog will likely begin by looking back at the sound of the latch opening or trying to get out during the second the door is open but that’s where the treats at the back of the crate come into play.

Don’t let the dog out of the crate during this part of the training session.

Hold the door open a few seconds longer each opening up to maybe 6-8 seconds open. Open, close, latch, unlatch, open repeat. Repeat until when the door is opened, the dog is automatically looking to the upper back of the crate where the treats are coming from.

Then, graduate to doing the same repetitive open and close routine but now you reach in from the open door to give the treat. The key here is do NOT let the dog rush out the open door. What you are trying to teach is that staying calmly in the crate when the door is opened is a good thing. You can include a “stay” command if needed.
Repeat until the dog makes no move towards exiting the crate when the door is opened.

Now hook a leash onto the door so it can be closed without having to reach it directly. Get yummy treats ready at the upper back of the crate in one hand and hold the leash in the other. Open the crate door and start feeding treats at the back of the crate. If the dog tries to exit, you pull the door shut with the leash and get his attention back at the back of the crate with the food.
Repeat until you can go several minutes without the dog paying attention to the open door.

Then move back to the front of the crate and start off like you did with feeding a treat through the open door while opening/closing/latching/unlatching. But this time you take a step back away from the open door and then step back up before giving the treat. Be ready to shut the door quickly if the dog tries to exit the crate. Repeat at one step away until the dog stays sitting calmly, then 2 steps away. Then 3 steps away. Then add duration of standing there with the door open and the dog sitting inside it. If you can work up to 1-2 minutes at 3-4 steps away, you’re pretty solid at this stage.

Now put a leash on the door and repeat the previous step. This is to teach the dog that being leashed up does NOT mean fly out of the crate (or the car or the front door). This is a very good safety measure.

Finally, the dog gets to exit the crate. Have him leashed and say a command of your choice for exiting.
Then, sit down near the crate with the dog on a leash and very important—nothing of interest or any treats available to him nearby. Sit and wait for him to go back into the crate. It might take awhile but completely ignore him. The idea is that nothing fun is happening at all. When the dog fully enters the crate on his own, throw a party. Yay! Lots of treats, lots of praise. Then ask him to exit and repeat this. It is like “It’s your choice” for the dog. He can be out of the crate and bored or inside the crate and being given treats and praise.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks, Shell! I was going to try to summarize my handouts from class if no one offered a link or good description.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll read your longer post in a bit Shell, thanks.



cookieface said:


> Glad to hear Argo and you are doing well! This isn't a short-term solution, but _crate games_ are great for helping your dog learn to love his crate. Grr, I can't find a good description online; maybe someone else will have a good link.
> 
> My dog suddenly became afraid of her crate over the summer. We took a 3-week crate games class and I've continued to work with her, and she's gotten much better. It wasn't a short-term fix, though.
> 
> Has he ever peed in the house? If he's gotten accustomed to eliminating outside and is old enough to have control over his bladder (at a year, he should), I don't think he should have an issue being out of his crate today. There has to be a first time being loose  I remember how anxious I was the first time we left Katie "loose" in a bedroom. My husband and I went to dinner, and I don't think I tasted anything I ate.


Ya, he isn't really scared of the crate - I just think he now knows he doesn't like it and is smart enough to refuse to go near it. I guess I'll need to help him like it again.

As for being loose, he's hit and miss so far. He doesn't pee in his crate but he has on carpet upstairs a few times. The first time was his first afternoon in the house and he was very nervous and I missed the signal he needed to go out. The other times were once when he got out of the crate (lock issue since fixed) and was loose for hours and another time when he got out of a gated room and was loose.

When I'm home he's very good about not going in the house and usually shows me when he needs to go out. Loose I'm not sure he's good with it though. Today I had to leave him in the TV room because he wouldn't go in the crate so we will see how it goes. It's carpeted, which worries me.

My plan was to gate him in the den/kitchen since the floors are tiled, but I'm having trouble finding a gate solution. I bought an extra tall one but the doorway is wider than most and it just isn't secure. He's pushed through it twice so I'm going to have to try something else. I considered using furniture to block his side of the gate, but he might just climb it and jump over. So for today I'm hoping he does OK in the TV room. If he does then I guess I can consider letting him stay locked there until I get the den worked out. He can't yet be trusted in the house as a whole though as he does like to grab gloves and shoes from the entryway.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for the description of crate games, I play with the crate and food but never got a real method on how to work it.

When my dogs are being reluctant to do something they need to do and have easily done before I circle around to unstick them and try again. Max sometimes has trouble getting in the car, I circle around and try again and if he is super sticky I put him in the car, have him jump down and then ask him to get in again. I wait in front of the open crate for the dog to decide to go in. Leashes help, holding collars can be counter productive.

I suspect he is testing to see if the rules at your house are the same as at the foster home. Hope you come home to an intact house. My dogs tend to get into food type things, no taking the house apart but even that is scary.

Ginger is horrible about licking faces and hopping into laps too. Some of that seems to be supplication, like a puppy licking the mouth of adult dogs. She seems to be trying to work out how to get everybody to like her more than anything. Not many people really like bouncy 16 pound dogs with big tongues suddenly on their lap. After living with poor suspicious Max for over a decade we really like her gregarious attitude but guess it needs to be toned down a bit.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> Thanks for the description of crate games, I play with the crate and food but never got a real method on how to work it.
> 
> When my dogs are being reluctant to do something they need to do and have easily done before I circle around to unstick them and try again. Max sometimes has trouble getting in the car, I circle around and try again and if he is super sticky I put him in the car, have him jump down and then ask him to get in again. I wait in front of the open crate for the dog to decide to go in. Leashes help, holding collars can be counter productive.
> 
> ...


haha, well Argo is around 30kg (70lbs) so he's pretty hefty to be climbing on me/people. And ya, he loves to lick faces. Sometimes he is a bit rough trying to do it but he's fairly gentle with me now. That being said, waking up in the morning and having a 70lbs dog trying to lick your face 20+ times (if I don't stop him) is pretty funny. 

As for him destroying the house - I sure hope not  The room he is in today is a bedroom converted into a TV room. I made sure there were no cups or cushions within reach and left him his Kong plus one toy I'm not worried about him playing with alone. There's a futon that he has napped on next to me before and a doggy bed I bought him last week. I also left his crate in the room with the door open, in case he wants to rest inside. I can't know for sure, but I'm hoping he behaves and doesn't chew anything. He did OK in that room for 60-90m yesterday. I'm more worried about him not waiting for me to get home re: bathroom. Cleaning up pee (hopefully nothing worse) isn't that bad, but I don't want to reinforce the idea that he can pee in the house.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

At one year old, he doesn't want to pee in the house. Try to make your schedule consistent and try to learn his signals for potty ... standard stuff.

If he is a Lab mix, then he needs to chew. Anticipate that and make sure his Kong and hard rubber bone (!!!) are available. Once he's emptied the Kong, I imagine that he is no longer interested in it.

As far as jumping - there are a few things to try. When you greet him, kneel down to his level and be careful about being knocked over with licking. If he jumps, then turn your side or your back to him, as a signal not to jump. At the same time, ask him to "Sit" before he jumps and reward if he does sit. Be prepared for him to jump when you reward him... so repeat what I just said... it won't go on forever.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Good day yesterday as Argo did not pee in the TV room. I was out for 7-7.5 hours and he behaved. Also seemed like he was sleeping in his crate (left it there with open door) when I got home, which was nice to see. He seems much more relaxed loose right now - his pees after I get home (7-8 hours alone) are much smaller/more normal than when he was in his crate and his pees were insanely long (nerves causing build-up?).

He also had another good night loose in my bedroom last night. He did have trouble sleeping at first as he was barking at random noises in the silence until I turned on the radio. After that he settled and slept all night, and I was the one to wake him this morning (for the first time).

He doesn't often jump up on me when I'm standing, but he will with other people due to his excitability. Like I said previously, the rescue he came from encouraged excitability and "GO GO" type interactions, especially with multiple people around. He just isn't used to calm environments. If I'm sitting on the couch he still periodically tries to jump up/climb on me. Last night he was a little more nervous/excited than over the weekend. Around 10 last night I called him up to climb - he climbed on me and licked my face for a bit, and then settled at my feet until I went to bed. Perhaps he just needs that kind of attention from me from time to time.

Overall Argo is making a lot of progress and it's nice to see. I'm trying to stay calm and not get angry about certain things, although it can be hard (him sniffing at my plate constantly while eating for example). He is getting good with sit+down, although he won't do it outside or around distractions, but at least he's making progress. I'm looking into obedience classes soon, which should help improve his commands and our bond. Overall I think he's getting better about jumping/mouthing with me because he isn't over-excited around me as much, so I just need to find ways to help him remain calm (especially in excitable situations) and continue working towards being able to settle down after walks in the evenings. Will be nice for him to feel comfortable enough to just settle without my attention, and it will be nice to have time for other things in the evenings.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Over the weekend Argo seemed to be settling in. On Saturday he met my sister for the first time and, although he didn't behave all that well, he tired himself out a bit. After going to work for 1.5 hours and coming home, he was fairly calm for most of the evening (either calmly chewing a toy or sleeping near me without looking for constant attention). Bred optimism. Sunday was more of the same. I'm a big NFL fan so I bought him a rawhide as a treat and distraction for when my team played. It worked pretty well as it took him almost the entire game to finish it and then he followed a similar routine as on Saturday. 

I've since come to realize that perhaps he was calmer because I was home with him all day and that helped him settle, since during the week I'm gone for 8 hours between 9 and 6.

My typical weekday routine is to wake up between 7 and 730 (depending on if I work at 9 or 10). We go downstairs and he gets his breakfast followed by 25-40 minutes of outside activities (walk + fetch/games in yard) and often 5-10 minutes of mental exercise (restraint games, commands, etc.). I leave at 9 or 10 and, starting this week, he's staying in a bedroom upstairs. In it he has a futon, his doggy bed (which he rarely uses), his crate (open door), and 2-3 toys. I get home between 5 and 630 and after his pee I give him his dinner (part in his bowl and the rest is fed through games while I cook my dinner). After I finish eating (while he hovers like a hawk near my plate), I take him out for his exercise (generally 45-60 minutes of walk/yard games). 

Despite the progress over the weekend, he has reverted back to his excitable/nervous behaviour that he showed during the first few days home. Last night was especially bad - he moved from toy to toy to toy, would not settle, seemed anxious and continually demanded attention from me. He did settle a little bit right before we went to bed, but before that he wouldn't at all. Monday was about the same, but not quite as bad.

He still likes to climb on me but not really cuddle. He doesn't seem that comfortable with me touching him/hugging him, except when he regards it as a sign to play. I'm trying to take it slow with that stuff, but it makes it tough to interact with him when everything is about play. I'm not even sure it's about energy because his behaviour doesn't greatly change after our exercise time, and on the weekend he was calmer with the same amount of exercise. The problem for me is that his nervousness, excitability and constant need for attention have crippled my entire evenings. I went into this with a realistic outlook and knew that to some extent, and especially early on, I would need to shape my life around his needs. 

The problem is I now have almost no life. I used to enjoy spending 2-3 hours on my PC (games, browsing, chatting with friends) in the evenings but since getting him I basically have not touched my computer. I've sat down there once or twice, but he immediately comes to seek attention (ie. jump on the arm rest). Moreover, on the weekend I was able to lounge on the couch without him climbing on me, but not yesterday or Monday. Instead, like the first few days, if I lean back to get comfortable he immediately comes to climb. I wouldn't mind if his intention was to be a lapdog - sleeping/cuddling on me - but instead he wants to play, paws at me and shoves his face in mine (sometimes licking, sometimes nibbling). The more excited he gets, the more he mouths. This basically means that in the evenings I'm left watching him 24/7 while trying to encourage calm behaviour, I can't get comfortable and I can't really do my normal hobbies. I understand he needs time and attention from me, but I also don't think it's healthy for me to not have time for myself either. And I'm also not keen on crating/locking him in a room for 1-2 hours in evenings to get my hobby time. Would this be a legitimate solution? It seems harsh because he spends his days alone.

Should I start obedience classes? I think there are classes starting within the next few days, but if I miss those then I wait until January. Would classes help these issues in the short-term? I'm going to give him a rawhide every Sunday so I can have a bit of time for football - should I give him nice bones more often? What else would you guys suggest? I know much of this is him adjusting, and I'm trying to remain patient because I don't want to make things harder on him. I know he is depending on me and I want him to trust me, but I'm also feeling a bit depressed/stressed about how things are right now. I guess I'm looking for some reassurance/tips for this situation, and I also needed to vent a bit.

Thanks


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Wow, good job Argo! Max was a mess crated but able to move around the house was quieter and maybe even a little less anxious. Before he arrived I didn't know some dogs were better out of a crate.

Obedience is good stuff. I'd observe a class before signing up. Especially with beginning obedience there is no reason to be punitive with a dog, go for a class that uses flat collars, praise, food and maybe a clicker. The instructor should be giving you homework so basically you are practicing things in an exciting class environment that you have already practiced at home and during walks in as many different places as you can manage. Group classes are wonderful to proof behavior around other dogs and people but lousy places to actually learn/teach anything. You have to keep your eyes on your dog at all times, doesn't make it easy to hear and remember what the instructor is telling you.

Or work on stuff at home. I didn't even take my first dog to class before she had learned a little stuff, sit/down/come. Don't think stay was there yet. She was a complete idiot around other dogs, good thing she had at least heard those words before going to class!

I just put Sassy's bed next to my chair and put her on it using the leash. Treated her every few seconds when she was on it and when she got up I put her back on the bed, no words/anger/annoyance/frustration as this was new and she didn't know what to do yet. From the start one member of the family sacrificed a hot meal and kept her on her bed in the living room during meals as well. I started with 1/2 hour, probably try a shorter time at first. 

I don't think progress is made in a linear fashion. Expect highs and lows to happen. If things change and get horrible then something might be going on but reverting to previous behavior is going to happen.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Just a few thoughts---


> We go downstairs and he gets his breakfast followed by 25-40 minutes of outside activities (walk + fetch/games in yard) and often 5-10 minutes of mental exercise (restraint games, commands, etc.).


I prefer to have about 30 minutes between any real physical exercise and feeding the dogs (before or after). I don't know if there are any studies on if it is safer or not, but I like the precaution of letting them digest before exercising or having them cool down and stop panting before eating.



> He still likes to climb on me but not really cuddle. He doesn't seem that comfortable with me touching him/hugging him, except when he regards it as a sign to play.


Lots of dogs don't like to actually cuddle or get hugs. Most (many?) like to be petted, scratched and to be near their person but not necessarily hugged or held on to closely. 



> The problem is I now have almost no life. I used to enjoy spending 2-3 hours on my PC (games, browsing, chatting with friends) in the evenings but since getting him I basically have not touched my computer..... I understand he needs time and attention from me, but I also don't think it's healthy for me to not have time for myself either. And I'm also not keen on crating/locking him in a room for 1-2 hours in evenings to get my hobby time.


i think this early on, that you're likely to need to put a hold on your 2-3 hours on the PC. Yes, you need time for yourself and yes, he needs to learn to entertain himself some but you also have to consider how many hours there are in a day where you are actually home and able to interact with him. He's home alone all day, you're asleep all night, you've got at least say an hour in the evening taken up by dinner, chores, etc. So really you've got maybe 3-4 hours of time to spend with him each day and he pretty much needs that time. Quality time with the dog is part of owning a dog. So you can work towards getting an hour of your PC time easily enough but 3 hours of PC time? That doesn't leave much time for the dog does it?

If you have a laptop or tablet, maybe sit outside in the yard with him and multi-task for an hour in the evening. After I walk the dogs, I like to sit outside with a book and let them sniff around the yard or in the warmer months, bask in the sun. It isn't quite as good for them as my playing with them or walking them, but it is a step up from hanging around inside and definitely a step up from being crated. 

Over time he will settle down more and be more willing to laze around while you surf the net. But it is early to expect that. I always say that 4 months is an average "settle in" time in a new home and for the first 4 months, you're going to be frustrated and tired and new behaviors by the dog will pop up and he'll sometimes forget his manners and sometimes seem to make progress and then backslide and so on. 



> Should I start obedience classes? I think there are classes starting within the next few days, but if I miss those then I wait until January. Would classes help these issues in the short-term?


I think classes would be good to start. Have you checked out the training facility to observe a class or session before signing up? It is a good idea to see a session first to make sure you are comfortable with the methods, the trainer and the facility (is it clean? Are the dogs relaxed? Are they using treats or choke chains or something in between? It is crowded? Etc)



> I'm going to give him a rawhide every Sunday so I can have a bit of time for football - should I give him nice bones more often?


I don't think rawhides are safe chews. Never give cooked or smoked bones BTW. There are some threads in the food section about chew recommendations. I like raw bones but they can be messy on carpet so they're better for outside or vinyl type floors. Frozen KONGs stuffed with a wet dog food are healthy and pretty cheap. I give cow hooves to chew but some are very smelly (like a barnyard) and some people are more sensitive to smells like that. I just open the windows. Antlers are popular, not cheap but apparently long lasting.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Kathyy, Argo seems similar in that I think he does better loose. His extra long pees coming out of his crate suggest he is pretty stressed/nervous inside, while his pees after being loose in the TV room are much more normal. He also isn't chewing or destroying any unapproved items (knock on wood). I still feel like I need to retrain for the crate, just so I have it available. Since the room is carpeted, it will probably get pretty smelly with him and his toys/bones in there every day. I'm still trying to gate the den properly, which would give him more room and a tile floor, but no luck so far. I feel better that I'm not crating him 16 out of 24 hours now though.

And ya, I think the highs and lows are obviously going to be frustrating for a while. I didn't go in expecting a perfectly behaved dog who needs no attention, but it's obviously a big adjustment for us both (plus other major changes in my life right now).

Shell, thanks again for your detailed response.

1. I don't really mean hug as in clutch, but even if I put my arm around him for a second he fidgets trying to get to the arm/hand. My Labs growing up loved all forms of contact - some weren't interesting in cuddling with you long-term, but they enjoyed the contact in short spurts. Argo still flinches sometimes when I pat/stroke him (especially his upper arm/leg areas). He does enjoy belly rubs now, although if he's worked up he's trying to mouth the whole time. I think he likes being close to me though.

2. I didn't mean to imply that I still want 2-3 hours of PC/hobby time, but that going from 2-3 to 0 is what is causing me anxiety. Obviously I imagine that at some point I'll be able to spend entire evenings doing my own thing from time to time and he'll be OK with it, but I understand that is a long way off. For now I'd just like to be able to relax a bit on my own terms. Perhaps I'll try putting his bed next to the PC chair and try to have him relax on it leashed? 

Overall he just seems like he always needs to be doing something. Whether it is playing with me, seeking my attention, chewing his toys, etc. the only time he's really been content to exist was on the weekend.

3. I haven't observed a class yet but I have been asking around for opinions on good classes. I'll keep looking and see if I can attend one in advance, although there aren't many starting this month due to Xmas break.

4. I read similar things about rawhides and tried to buy ones that are considered 'safer' - thick outer layer with an inner layer that is basically one piece rolled a bunch of times (instead of smaller pieces stuck together to create a filling). He loved his first one and I kept an eye on him the whole time. It didn't look like small harder bits were coming off, and I was careful to take away pieces that came off and might be a choking hazard. I will look into other bones, but I do need options that work on carpets because the TV room I spend much of my spare time in is carpeted. If I can train him to settle on his bed then perhaps the issue would be moot.

Is there anything specific I can do to help him relax/settle easier in the evenings? He has plenty of toys, but I thought about getting him bones more often to let him focus on one thing for a while. I do leave him his Kong when I leave for work - is it OK to use that again in the evening? I was always under the impression that its best used is as a special treat when I'm gone.

Thanks again


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Oh, one other thing.

I'd prefer the dog sleep on a dog bed in the bedroom and not jump up on furniture, except maybe the futon in the TV room. Even then, I might prefer to keep him off that too because his bones/chewing makes a mess. At the very least, I'd like to be able to control when he comes up on the futon.

So far I've not been consistent with furniture. I've been consistent about keeping him off furniture downstairs, but not in the TV room or my bedroom. If I want to discourage furniture in general (with or without futon), I know I need to become 100% consistent.

If Argo has slept on the bed for a few nights and has been on the futon most days since coming home, what is the best way to retrain? I know I would likely need to transition him to a day room without furniture. I also know I'd have to seriously train him to use his bed, in whichever room it is placed (I could move it around the house depending on where I am). What's the best way to tackle this situation?


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Sounds like things are going well for you and Argo! Kathyy and Shell gave great advice (as they always do). It may just take time for Argo to fully settle in and be comfortable enough with his new situation to relax and welcome physical contact. Right now, he's probably still a little on edge and your putting your arm around him may seem threatening or too restrictive. I know you don't mean to be, but dogs don't understand our intentions and hugging is more a human thing than a dog thing. 

Kikopup and Tab289 have videos for reinforcing calmness and training a settle (I'd link, but my computer is being temperamental about video lately). You might get additional ideas there.

Bullysticks and food dispensing-toys are other options for keeping Argo occupied while you have some time for yourself. We have a few, but the ones I like best are the Tricky Treat Ball and Contempo Finn. The treat ball will keep him moving, but occupied. The finn (or stick toy, as I call it) doesn't require too much moving around. There are other food-dispensing toys, but of the ones I've tried, these are the most quiet and longest lasting.

If the training center you find has a web site, folks here will be happy to help you check it out.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> 3. I haven't observed a class yet but I have been asking around for opinions on good classes. I'll keep looking and see if I can attend one in advance, although there aren't many starting this month due to Xmas break.
> 
> 4. I read similar things about rawhides and tried to buy ones that are considered 'safer' - thick outer layer with an inner layer that is basically one piece rolled a bunch of times (instead of smaller pieces stuck together to create a filling). He loved his first one and I kept an eye on him the whole time. It didn't look like small harder bits were coming off, and I was careful to take away pieces that came off and might be a choking hazard. I will look into other bones, but I do need options that work on carpets because the TV room I spend much of my spare time in is carpeted. If I can train him to settle on his bed then perhaps the issue would be moot.


Even if there aren't any classes starting up right now, ask the facility if you can observe a class session for something already in progress or even (if the dog owner's permission) a private training session. The idea is to get a feel for the place and an idea if they are what they represent themselves to be in terms of training style and the location itself. 
Checking online reviews is good, but since you don't know how other people want their dog trained, you don't know if the place is a match for you or not unless you see it. For example, I know some very well recommended trainers that use techniques that I'm not comfortable using on my dog. They are honest about their training style though and if that's what another dog owner prefers, then that trainer is probably a really good one for them.

Antlers are a durable and clean chew. Nylabones also are fairly clean, some dogs love them and others won't touch them. Try the "souper" size chicken flavored one. You can also lay a few towels on the floor to reduce the drool on carpet problem. Even chews that aren't messy themselves will lead to drool spots. If you want to train him to have the chew toy on his bed, then I'd suggest getting a washable cover for it otherwise it will get really yucky and smelly over time. 

For rawhides, I'd be more concerned about the impaction hazard of a mass of congealing cow hide chunks than small pieces breaking off. If you touch a piece that's been chewed on for awhile, you can feel how gummy and sticky it is and not very digestible.


----------



## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

Sounds like he's doing really well! I think the extra energy he has is simply his age and breed. I would love to see some pictures; chocolate labs are so nice looking.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

All I have are phone pics right now, but here he is. 



















Thanks again for all the advice/input. Trying some new things tonight, will report back with how they go


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

I finally figured out how to make the den area work for him so today is his first day there. I feel bad changing his spot a few times since he came home, but the den was always my intended spot for him so hopefully it works out. Before he'd be able to push through the bottom of it, but now I used an old door to laid horizontally to block the bottom of the gate. It also obstructs his view (unless he sits and cranes his neck) of the rest of the house, which probably helps. A nearby chair acts as a brace with the door between it and the wall. I tried this out last night when I went out for 1-2 hours and then again this morning for an hour. 

Anyway, yesterday I tried something new with him. Yesterday I spent time reading up on behaviours and calming techniques for dogs. Natural energy aside, I decided to change my interactions with Argo to see if I could promote calmness. Some articles I read recommended limited vocal interactions, using signals/marks to both praise and correct. I bought a clicker yesterday to try clicker training, since I think removing my voice (and the frustrated/excited tones) might help promote calmness. 

I got home from work around 4:30 and went out again around 7. For those 2.5 hours I basically did not speak to Argo at all. I also tried to keep my movements much calmer and more deliberate, and I paid much more attention to his body language and reactions to me. I still gave him plenty of attention, but I tried to withdraw any time it seemed like he was getting too excited, giving him a chance to calm down. When calm, I treated/praised. This all actually seemed to work really well. He was much calmer than he'd been previously, even before his walk at 6. When I got home around 8:30 I continued the same types of interactions. It was slightly less effective this time around, but I think still helped versus the night before.

Something interesting that I discovered in the process is that his restlessness seems to be influenced by the rooms we're in. Upstairs, either in the bedroom or TV room, Argo is very restless until late at night when he might begin to settle on his own. I began to make this connection last night and tested the theory this morning because I'd noticed in the past that he was much calmer downstairs. This morning I was home until 12:30pm and we spent much of that time on the main floor (den and kitchen). I did dishes, cleaned up the kitchen, brought his crate into the den and cooked myself breakfast and lunch. Throughout all of this he was very very calm - often he would rest on the kitchen floor near me, even laying his head down and breathing calmly. He's done this before, but not that consistently. Anyway, I decided to eat my lunch upstairs in the TV room while watching a bit of TV before work. As soon as we started heading upstairs his energy level increased and he went into his restless mode. Aside from hovering around my food, he couldn't sit still - chewed on 3-4 different toys constantly, changed spots constantly, etc. and only relaxed briefly right before I left. It was like night and day just changing floors of the house. The only environmental different is carpet versus tiles.

Do you guys have any ideas to explain this behaviour or how to reduce its impact? Selfishly, most of 'my' attractions are on the top floor (TV, PC, bed) so I don't spend much time on the main floor. To help him calm I can certainly spend our together time on that floor, but I'm not sure how to help him transfer his downstairs calmness to upstairs. Any ideas?

Otherwise he's still making progress and overall seems like a nice, happy boy. He still has much to learn and gets scared of the funniest things, and I hope he's bonding with me. I also recently learned that he was on death row at the pound after a 3-month stay until his rescue saved him a month before I adopted.


----------



## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

He is adorable! Sounds like you're doing a good job so far! Sorry I don't have any advice to give you on the specific issues, but I imagine he will settle down more with time.

Wow, so glad you saved him from death row!


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Jen2010 said:


> He is adorable! Sounds like you're doing a good job so far! Sorry I don't have any advice to give you on the specific issues, but I imagine he will settle down more with time.
> 
> Wow, so glad you saved him from death row!


 Ya, he's a nice boy.

It's been a few days and I think I've further confirmed my hunch about energy levels and the floors of my house.

Yesterday was very demonstrative of his behaviour shifts. When I got home early from work we went for an earlier walk/exercise and then spent some time doing mental exercises. I decided to try doing these upstairs since most of the time I'd done them downstairs - I thought maybe he associated downstairs with good behaviour and upstairs with play. I haven't discounted this idea yet.

Anyway, he was very hyper upstairs and I was back to having to take him out for a pee every 30-45 minutes. He even peed in the hallway upstairs when I ignored a whine (I thought it was for attention since I was ignoring him to calm him down and he'd just peed 30 minutes before). I tried to eat my dinner upstairs but it was just too worked up. I eventually gated him in the den for 30 minutes so I could eat peacefully. Afterwards he hung around me while I did some other things and then we did a bit of mental exercises in the den - so much better behaved. I took him upstairs to relax but he showed me immediately that he wouldn't so we went back to the den. I ended up watching TV on my iPad for about 1.5 hours while he slept on his bed next to me down there. Although he seeks my attention in the den, he will settle fairly quickly if I show I'm not interested in playing. After about 1.5 hours I decided to go back upstairs to do a few things on the PC. We were only up there for about 30 minutes and he was anxious, hyper, attention seeking, etc. before I took him back to the den. He took a bit to calm down but then slept near me again.

I honestly don't know what to make of his behaviour or how to help him. Today I've been in the TV room upstairs for a few hours and brought a big baggy full of treats (kibble, liver treats and frozen cut up hot dogs). I put his bed next to my chair and was feeding him treats (and marking with clicker) when he sat/lay next to me calmly. He did it for quite a while, although only because he wanted the food and once I put larger gaps between treats he got anxious again. He was pretty OK for a while though, and then I ran out of treats and he went back to his restless behaviour. I got a small amount of treats and tried to space them out more. It worked somewhat, although his impatience bred restlessness and he went back to anxious energy once I stopped. He has just now settled on the futon behind me for the first time ever (never settles when I'm in PC chair).

Do you think my approach is correct and will it help teach him to relax upstairs, or am I just giving him too much food and/or food motivation?

I'm really not sure why there is such a noticeable behaviour difference, but I'm open to ideas/suggestions regarding potential causes and remedies.

Thanks


----------



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Have been following your post and just wanted to say that your thoughtful approach, attentiveness and ability to read your new dog is terrific! It will certainly pay off for you both. I'm a big advocate of helping one of my dogs and some of the other dogs I work with to learn to relax a bit. Did you know you can actually teach your dog to take a deep breath? If you get a chance, you might want to check out "Control Unleashed the Puppy Program" by Leslie McDevitt - lots of helpful tips and exercises there.

Altho I'm certainly no expert, it sounds like you guys are right on track. You've gotten so much good advice: helpful to anyone who reads it! Gotta love this FREE forum! I suppose you will just need to repeat/continue what you've taught him (gorgeous boy BTW) downstairs, upstairs now. Find him a place to settle, make good associations, etc.

It's pretty cool that just carrying ourselves differently communicates what we want from our dogs. I've learned to never underestimate ignoring! Simple things like moving slower, talking less, looking away into the distance - they notice these things! Breathing slower, being relaxed, resting your weight away from the dog - without being weird about it! - they see it all, even really subtle changes. They know when you're being kind not too controlling. One pit mix I fostered learned to mouth less and jump up less by just ignoring it, taking my hands away when she licked for than 2-3 times (she would lick, lick, lick, then nibble, nibble, then bite, bite softly). I just gently but firmly pushed her off with my leg, arm, whatever when she jumped on me, never saying a word, otherwise ignoring her. Then a little reward (treats, praise, attention) when she behaved "nicely." I tried to allow her one jump up when it was just a greeting thing, say hello and acknowledge that yes, she's a wonderful girl!

In time you get to recognize little signs that the dog is even thinking about doing something...then you can redirect earlier and it's even more effective. 

In the evening I try to take some time for each dog, lay down with them and talk to them softly, just one on one, cuddle up - silly I know, but I tell them what I did, what they did, and how great it all was. They love this! I have 2 of my own dogs now, Daisy and Money. Plus one foster mama dog and her 3 eight-week-old puppies. Plus 2 cats. Plus me, that makes 9 in a 1000 square foot house with basically only 3 rooms! Hopefully the 4 fosters will soon find homes tho.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks for the kind words.

Argo had his first vet visit yesterday and it was a fun experience. Not very well-behaved, but everyone agreed he was a really nice boy. Also showed no hints of aggression, despite needing 3 additional people to hold him down for shots (they all agreed he's probably got a bit of Pit in him, and that he's very strong). Thankfully he seems in good health and is now in the 'ideal weight' category.

Last night he actually settled and slept near me in the TV room for hours, but that may have been due to the shots and stress of the day. He also slept well through the night as I once again had to wake him up this morning. About 2 hours before we got up he did come literally sit on my chest, but after I moved to the other pillow he slept on mine while pressed up against me. 

Over the weekend he was calm throughout the days and a bit more excited in the evenings. Overall he's still much calmer downstairs in the evenings, but I'm trying to encourage him to settle on his bed (mark + treats) and I'm also splitting our training exercises upstairs and downstairs. He starts his classes this Thursday and I'm also looking into other ways to exercise him. Walks don't seem to use up much of his energy, even with 10-15 minutes of fetch before/after. I don't think his evening energy is all physical - I think he's just excited to have me home, but I'd like to find ways to burn a bit of that off in the early evenings so that by 9 or 10 he's able to settle. 

He's young with much to learn, but overall I think he's making a lot of progress.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Went to his first obedience class last night. He was definitely the most excited of the bunch, and a bit of a handful, but he's also quite smart and eager to please (once he focuses). His biggest issue is his excitability, especially around other people/dogs, but I already knew this. He also needs to learn to play nice with others dogs - the rescue he was at encourage rough play-fighting between him and another dog he spent time with. Overall he did quite well. He's quickly picking up on some commands and I'll be working with him to improve TOUCH and WATCH this week as well as loose leash walking.

I do have a question/concern about loose leash walking. The technique we are using it to start in a sit, begin walking backwards and then pivot forward while marking/treating. Then keep the dog's attention while treating/praising if he keeps the leash loose and treating on turns. Also use stops+turns with rewards when he begins to pull. We worked on this a bit in the yard this morning but he stays very focused on the treats instead of me. He eyes my hand and even tries to jump at it (walking into my path) instead of walking next to me. I'm trying to reward him on one side only and rewarding low instead of high. I imagine he will figure it out, but is there something else I can do? 

Otherwise progress is slow and steady. He's still fairly excitable upstairs, but is calming even more (I think) on the main floor. Upstairs he's probably calmer than before, but still very excitable and energetic. I'm still trying to find ways to get him good exercise in the evenings now that the temperature has dropped (-15c this week).

Thanks for reading and any tips offered.

Edit: Argo also wishes you all a Merry Christmas


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I would work on getting him to look at your rather than the treat. Hold the treat out in one hand and wait for him to look at your face. When he does, mark and reward. He'll learn that looking to you gets the treat instead of staring at your hand. Basically it's her choice.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If my memory is as good as I think it is, you might find some information on in class excitability in this thread. Kikopup has a number of videos on building attention. I've done what Elrohwen suggested for focusing attention on me, not the treats. 

The only comment on the loose leash walking technique is that all the backwards walking and pivoting would have me flat on my face (or butt).


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> *I think just being in an obedience class will be very helpful, regardless of the different heeling patterns the instructors has you do. *It will be so beneficial for him to learn to focus around other dogs. I guess I wouldn't worry to much about him being so focused on the treats at this point. You can always wean him off those later. The point is he's focused, and that's a good thing. If you have to use treats for now, that's OK.
> 
> You know this, but the more you can get him out for walks the better. The more energy he can drain, the less excitable he'll be in general, which will make everything else so much easier. Keep up the good work!


I agree with the bolded. Although he has mellowed a bit around me and his patterns of excitability are more akin to standard puppy stuff, he has trouble in stimulating situations - seeing another dog or person especially. The classes should help him get used to being around these things without having to focus on them all the time, and learning commands and self-control in these environments should help his excitability in general. 

Exercise is proving to be an issue. Not because I don't walk him, but because it's tough to tire him out. I try to get him at least an hour of exercise after work (walks and/or outdoor games), but they don't really tire him out. We also practice commands and I have started giving him part of his dinner in a dispensing toy to give his brain some extra work. He has an athlete's body with very muscular legs and a somewhat lean build (for a Lab). I think he would be a great dog for Agility one day, but right now I'm looking for ways to actually tire him out (short of 3 hour walks). He really loves going for walks - for stimulation I imagine - and he will even cut our fetch games short and go stand near the yard gate hoping to go for a(nother) walk. Physically they don't seem to tire him out that much. Right now I don't own a vehicle and it's much too cold to be out for 2-3 hours at a time. Come Spring I'll have a vehicle and plan to drive to open areas to let him run and/or swim, and hopefully take him hiking, etc. Right now I'm not sure how to get him exercise that will actually tire him out.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

mooseontheloose said:


> Right now I'm not sure how to get him exercise that will actually tire him out.


You probably can't walk him enough to actually tire him out. So try focusing on engaging his mind while you walk him so that he is mentally tired out too. Ask for a sit at each intersection, ask him to sit and stay in the yard before and after a walk, practice loose leash walking (I don't ask a dog to heel on a normal walk, just not to drag me around on the leash), etc. Things that require impulse control (waiting patiently) are tiring to a young dog like that. When playing fetch, ask him to sit and stay or lay down and stay until you say "OKAY" and then throw the ball.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

You're doing great with Argo!!! It can take a rescue dog two weeks or more to settle into his new 'home.'

1. His problems with upstairs may have been early association with playing while upstairs ???
2. I agree - Don't shoot for tiring him out by walking. Be happy with exercising as much as you can. He will adapt. If you were so inclined, on a cold day, he could probably learn to run for an hour, and be calm and happy [as opposed to tired and asleep ]. He looks enough like a Lab to me, that he probably below freezing weather. My poor Lab mix pants when the temperature is above freezing.
3. One strong recommendation that I have seen work is to find another dog with the same energy level (another Lab, a Pit?) and let them wrestle once a week. In addition, expose him to a lot of other dogs. It may seem counter-intuitive, but he'll learn to play better as he gets experience with more dogs ... especially if a few of them can keep up with him.
4. Young dogs sometimes have a burst of energy just before bedtime. Sometimes, you can drain off this last burst by going on a 15 min. potty walk, just before the burst normally occurs. 
5. Most dogs don't like to be hugged ... but they'll adapt to anything. However, you'll also want to adapt to what he likes - rubbing his belly, scratching inside his ears, under his jaw, and so on.
6. You are allowed to play tug to help drain energy, if you like ... but you may need a little help to learn how to set the rules ... and how to protect your shoulders from a dog that may be able to shake your arms out of the sockets :-0


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

hanksimon said:


> You're doing great with Argo!!! It can take a rescue dog two weeks or more to settle into his new 'home.'
> 
> 1. His problems with upstairs may have been early association with playing while upstairs ??? *I'm not sure. I didn't really play with him upstairs any more than downstairs, but I did originally do training downstairs only until I noticed the difference in his behaviour. It's still a bit of an issue though. If I stand in the kitchen doing something he will sit/down by himself within a minute or two, and he will eventually look away from me or just relax. Same if I sit in a chair in the den, although it does take a bit longer for him to stop seeking attention from me and he does try to jump onto my lap from time to time. Upstairs if I sit on the futon or in my PC chair he is restless constantly. If I give him something to do (ie. treat dispensing toy, special toy/treat, etc.) he will focus on that, but otherwise he wants my attention 24/7 and won't sit/down by himself. And if he does, he whines. He will sit/down if I command it, but he won't stay in it and stares at me waiting for treats. If I don't keep them coming, he gets restless again. I'm doing training upstairs now and doing my best to encourage and reward calm behaviour, but it's still a strange phenomenon.*
> 
> ...


One other issue is that he becomes so fixated on treats during training that sometimes he can't focus on the commands (ie. loose leash walking). I'm working on that. However, his excitement and food drive also causes him to be rough taking treats. He isn't like that inside during normal training, but when doing loose leash training (inside or outside) he isn't gentle at all when taking the treats - he bites at my hand to take it and even lunges for it when he sees it coming.

I think there is a video that shows how to feed treats to dogs but I can't seem to find it now. Anyone have the link or have any tips?

Tomorrow will be 3 weeks since he came home with me. He's certainly made a lot of progress, which I should try to remember, but there's still much to learn and he still needs more time to settle in.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Here's how I taught my dog to take treats gently. I held the treat in my fingers so he couldn't get it, then held it out to him. As long as he was gnawing on me, he couldn't have it, but as soon as he started licking or being gentle, I marked it and let him have the treat. I worked on this alone for about a day or two, and when he had the idea I started expecting him to be gentle taking treats while training other things. No treat until he was being polite about it. Now if he bites I just have to pull my hand away and offer it again and he is much more gentle.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Here's how I taught my dog to take treats gently. I held the treat in my fingers so he couldn't get it, then held it out to him. As long as he was gnawing on me, he couldn't have it, but as soon as he started licking or being gentle, I marked it and let him have the treat. I worked on this alone for about a day or two, and when he had the idea I started expecting him to be gentle taking treats while training other things. No treat until he was being polite about it. Now if he bites I just have to pull my hand away and offer it again and he is much more gentle.


Thanks, will give that a try.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

While it doesn't get cold around here it is annoying having damp gooey fingers when I would rather be wearing gloves. I have experimented a little with food tubes. Get a backpacker's refillable tube and put something yummy like a paste type canned dog food, peanut butter, raw hamburger in there and let him have a lick as a reward. I did this with anchovy paste, big hit and they worked for it in spite of the tiny amount of paste they must have had each lick.

You have been watching kikopup? She likes to treat on the ground. You might try that. If he can have grains an oldie but goodie is Cheerios - dry, low cal and easy to handle. My dogs liked some flavors of Charlie Bears too.

After years of dealing with Sassy's bad manners around food I got a handle on it. The doggy zen elrohwen suggested is the starting point. Once he can see your closed hand and wait for you to release him to it move on. Wait until he looks at you before you release him to the food, go ahead and cheat by moving your fist to your face first couple times if you like. Wave your closed fist around as a distraction with him keeping his eyes on you before releasing to the food. Final step is airplane cookies - he doesn't get the cookie until you place it in his mouth and grabs cause the airplane to zoom out of reach. I don't have a time line on how long this will take, Ginger came here with intense handler focus and I learned a lot of this after Max came home with me plus I haven't even tried airplane cookies yet with her. Go inch by inch and you may need to start at step one every day and maybe every training session for a while. It really works, never thought Sassy would be anything but a rude grabby dog around food but she got it fast and probably was very happy I finally understood how to teach her how to take treats nicely!

He will start to mirror your energy. If you move fast, he moves fast. If you are deliberate, he will be slower too. This is hard for me, I want to reward snappy behaviors quick but then I get chewed on. Is he grabbing as much during the yard LLW as on actual walks? If so try slowing the delivery down using praise as a bridge between behavior and reward so he knows right when you were happy about his behavior. If he grabs more on actual walks then he is really excited. In that case you might just work on LLW right outside the yard and increase distance a little more as he is up to it. I sure wish I knew this stuff with Sassy, Max and Ginger are a lot less grabby about food!

My agility teacher reminded and continues to remind us to use a release word too. So the chain would be LLW, you are happy with his walking so start telling him so and start moving your treating hand to him. When he is politely looking forward to getting his treat and when your hand is close use a release word to let him know the treat is his.

Does he have a spot to lay down upstairs? Maybe drag his bed up there or make something comfy up and work on long down stays.

Early days yet. Ginger has been here a couple days shy of 5 months and we are still feeling one another out.


----------



## SusanLynn (Dec 8, 2013)

This is a terrific thread. I brought home a rescue dog three weeks ago. He's approximately two years old, 57 pounds, and possibly an Anatolian Shepherd mix. He's been keeping me very busy - both spending time with him and learning as much as I can about how to train him. I can relate mooseontheloose's experience so much. I expect to be spending a lot of time studying this thread for tips on making my own interactions with Maru better.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

One thing you can try to reduce treat fixation in the house is to put a number of treat bowls around the house, preferably where he can't easily see them. Then, when you are training, you can have empty hands, give the cue, say Good Dog!, and randomly reach into one of the various treat bowls.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> One thing you can try to reduce treat fixation in the house is to put a number of treat bowls around the house, preferably where he can't easily see them. Then, when you are training, you can have empty hands, give the cue, say Good Dog!, and randomly reach into one of the various treat bowls.


This! Not sure if it will help him stop fixating on the treat in your hands, but it will definitely teach him that doing what you say can be rewarding even if you don't have a treat in your hand when you give the cue.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

hanksimon said:


> One thing you can try to reduce treat fixation in the house is to put a number of treat bowls around the house, preferably where he can't easily see them. Then, when you are training, you can have empty hands, give the cue, say Good Dog!, and randomly reach into one of the various treat bowls.


Thanks, good idea.

There are a few things I've noticed over the past 2-3 days that concern me.

1. I recently changed his food and his stomach seems to be handling it fine. In fact, he seems to be able to eat anything without large changes to his poops. However, a few times recently he will go into the yard and poop, and then 20 seconds later in another spot he will try to poop again (sometimes he will and other times he'll stop trying). Should I be concerned?

2. When I first got him his separation anxiety was mild - he would whine a bit when first left alone but then would be fine. When I first started gating him he whined very briefly and that was it. This past week his whining has become much louder, more pronounced and longer when gated. Moreover, he know jumps up and lean on the gate constantly so he can watch me until I actually leave the house. The whining doesn't stop until I'm out the door. Furthermore, he has been ignoring his Kong while I'm out. As soon as I'm home he'll sit down with it and eat everything out of it but 2 or 3 times this week it has been almost untouched when I got home. I've read that not eating/touching Kongs can sometimes be related to SA. Any ideas or suggestions to help him out?

Thanks


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Much has changed for Argo recently, mostly for the better.

For personal reasons I'd rather not discuss, my wife wasn't living at home when I first got Argo. She returned right before Christmas and the adjustment has been interesting. They really seem to like each other, but in many ways the change caused some understandable regression. While he was/is quite good and calm around me now, he has trouble when we are both around. He's also pretty good with just her. When we are both with him he seems to have trouble controlling his excitement. He has claimed a spot in the living room where he can watch (and bark at) people walking by - he will settle here often when we watch TV. Elsewhere there are issues.

The big problem we are working on right now is: Mouthing. 

He rarely mouths when he's alone with just me, except during play but it's much more subtle than when he first came home. When we are both there (especially during play) he gets very mouthy, sometimes even nipping at clothes. He doesn't bite hard enough to draw blood, but his excitement causes him to nip and/or swat us with his head (big dog head vs jaw = ouch). We are using the same techniques I used alone (end play, ignore, etc.) so hopefully it sinks in. More importantly, he has a big problem with going after clothing. When either of us get dressed he tries to bite at socks, shirts, underwear, etc. If he is excited, he will bite (and hold) the tie on a bathrobe or even the robe itself. He will chew blankets sometimes too - not destructively, but just to gnaw on something. He will also search the room/closet for any socks or gloves or underwear within reach. 

Most of this behaviour is non-existent or significantly diminished when he is alone with me. It is also better when he is alone with my wife compared to when we are all together. And we are trying not to promote excitability. How can I discourage this type of mouthing? He is so excited that he has trouble remembering manners or responding to commands. It makes it difficult to show/reward him for good behaviour and instead we find ourselves telling him 'No' to things (which isn't helping him learn).

Overall he's settling in really well. When it's just me with him he is quite well behaved and has made major progress since my last post. I'm looking forward to spring so I can take him to large fields and places to swim. His strength sometimes surprises me still ... although he's only done it twice, he is capable of jumping from the floor onto our kitchen counter or living room table (neither are unusually low to ground) and he does so without using his front paws for leverage (all 4 paws on ground, no running start). Gave us a good laugh, but still shocked me a bit. Definitely looking into Agility this year.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

For the clothes, I would work on "leave it" and "drop" (or "give"). Really build up the cue simply before you ask for it while he's excited, then when he starts going for you socks you should be able to say "leave it" and have him back off. Eventually, the leave it will become default when you're getting dressed.

For times when you're wearing the clothes and he's hanging off of you, a "drop" cue could work, as well as ending all play and becoming very boring.

Glad to hear he's settling in!


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Would treating him like a mouthy puppy and substitute a toy for your clothes be a good idea? This sounds like clingy uncertain behavior as he isn't used to the more complicated social structure at home yet. If he gets to use his mouth on a toy for acceptable play maybe your approval will help him.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

I've sort of tried that but he doesn't seem interested in the toy during those moments. Sometimes it's tough to get him to release the piece of clothing without using my hands (he doesn't growl and will eventually release if my fingers are in his teeth - not my preferred method but also necessary when he's tugging on attached clothing).

I also don't want to trade treats constantly because then it seems like he's getting treats as a reward for mouthing.

I'm confident it just has to due with the new situation since I just saw proof that he could transition to a calmer mentality over the past 1.5 months when alone with him. 

One other method I've started is locking him out of the room we are in or in another room when he is too worked up and not responding to commands/corrections. I'm not sure how effective this is overall, but sometimes it seems to help to just remove him from us for 3-5 minutes (especially if we are doing something like folding laundry, which is very stimulating for him).

I guess I'm still trying to find the most effective way to discourage the behaviour. In other ways we are having success in rewarding good behaviours, but it's difficult with mouthing sometimes because it's typically when he's excited and has trouble focusing due to his desire to PLAY.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Why is the "wanting to be with you" a problem? Isn't that why people have dogs? For companionship? I wish I still had a dog who as bonded to me like this .

This also could be that he is new tithe home and some dogs take up to a year to show their true selves. Buddy is just now showing his true self after over a year with us (it will be two years this march)


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

When did I say it was a problem for him to be with us? I spend all of my home time with him, either actively doing things with him or relaxing near him (he almost never leaves the room I am in).

My point was that sometimes his excitability makes him unable to control himself and bad behaviour takes over. I don't care if he barks or climbs on furniture, etc. but mouthing/chewing that may be destructive or harmful (unintentionally but still) is something I want to target. I don't see how that is cruel of me. He is my pal, but he still needs to learn proper behaviour.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Going to bump this one more time. The last few days have been fairly frustrating.

In many ways Argo is making great progress, and tomorrow marks the 2 month anniversary of his adoption. Throughout this month he was adjusting pretty well to his living situation as we started to really hammer out a routine. He now goes to bed around the same time every night and sleeps great in his crate. He doesn't fight going in at all these days, although I do need to make sure he's calmed a bit before taking him into the bedroom. He's learned a bunch of commands and seems like a happy dog, but some things still trouble me.

The past 2-3 days have been very frustrating as Argo has been very badly behaved. I've found myself yelling (not screaming, but raising my voice in frustration) at him from time to time, which prompted me to come here and try to recollect my thoughts. 

1. The absolute biggest issue with him is still the excitability, which leads to jumping and mouthiness. When he is calm, he is very well behaved. He will sleep on the couch near me or chew on his toys or stare out our bay window for hours. He'll come seek attention in relatively polite ways, is rarely mouthy, and doesn't jump up on me or counters.

However, when excited he is the complete opposite. He jumps up on my wife, mouths at her gloves, steals our shoes/glove/scarves if they aren't out of reach, jumps up on counters when we're in the kitchen, seeks attention by jumping on us on the couch, including shoving his face into ours (which can be dangerous when he's being mouthy). He rarely actually bites, but his mouthiness has caused a few 'ouch' moments from being struck by his teeth. During these moments he is CONSTANTLY acting out - if we go into the bedroom to change, he will jump onto the bed and start chewing the blankets or wire for the electric blanket (he does neither when calm). Giving him one of his toys doesn't help as he'll chew it for 5 seconds and go back to the other stuff. He'll also search our closet and pull out anything he can find (ie. cardboard boxes).

When he is like this we have a very hard time getting him under control. He doesn't respond well to commands. He will sit when asked sternly, but only for a second and has trouble holding a stay (which he does fine when calm). When he takes something in his mouth and I go to take it away, he gets even more excited and growls (playfully I think - when I do grab the object I can take/pry it from his mouth and he never bites or growls) or runs around, even if I'm offering a trade for a toy/treat. In these moments it seems like the only thing we can do to discourage the behaviour is lock him out of the room for 5-10 minutes to let him calm down. This does calm him down, but sometimes he'll return to hyper mode as soon as he's let back in. This excitability is very consistent when in the bedroom except when he's taken in late at night to sleep (he goes right to crate).

Should we ban him from the bedroom except for sleeping?

What else can we do? I've found myself getting frustrated and I know that isn't productive. I also don't want him to fear me. Sometimes when I reach out (slowly) to grab his collar, he pulls back and/or runs away. He might just be being playful/bad/uncooperative, but sometimes he seems a bit scared or uneasy. Of course I've never done anything to warrant that, but I don't know what's in his past.

One other issue is that the weather here has been exceptionally cold on and off. It's been very cold the last 2-3 days so he's not getting much exercise. I understand that is a major factor here and I'm going to find ways to help stimulate him even on very cold days, but does anyone have any other suggestions for above behaviour?

2. Argo used to be pretty good about going into the gated den for the day. However, I sort of worry about him in there.

Recently he's showing that he knows when we are soon ready to leave. Around the same time in the morning now he will go sit on the couch and not come when called. Even if I'm holding treats or opening back door, he doesn't come because I think he knows I'll soon be gating him and leaving. The last few days my wife and I have had to guide him via collar into the den. 

(as a note, my wife gets up at 5:30 with Argo. After his pee he has breakfast and she leaves for work between 615-630, at which time he is gated. I wake up around 7-730 and I'm with him until I leave around 9, when he's gated again until ~5pm).

When I leave him I always give him a treat and/or throw some on the floor for him. However, he whines very loudly and begins panting quite heavily. I know that once I'm gone the whining stops and he waits for us to return. He doesn't touch his toys and I stopped giving him a Kong because he was ignoring it until I get home. I worry about him being bored since it seems like all he does is wait patiently for us to return (he does the same thing when locked out of a room - he will stay next to the door instead of roaming house). 

I know many dogs have trouble being left alone, especially in new homes. I also know it's only been 2 months, but what are your thoughts on this behaviour? Will he grow out of it or is there something I can/should be doing to help him out?

Thanks for any input, sorry for long post.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

How much exercise is he getting? His behavior honestly sounds pretty typical of active adolescent male dogs and my own displayed a lot of that behavior (and still does sometimes). Increasing his exercise would be the first thing I would recommend. Tire him out mentally and physically. 

The zooming around before bed is also really common. Timeouts can work really well, as they often just need to be forced to settle for a couple minutes. It's like a toddler who throws tantrums and won't go to bed, but it's really because they're overtired. For my own dog, I play some tug with him during this period with clear rules and expectations. The second he bites me, the game ends, toy goes away, I disengage and go about my business. If he continues to stay amped up, he goes in his crate. I find the tugging helps to get out some of that "must play and run around nao!" and setting clear rules has kept it from getting out of hand. But for many months around 11-16 months, he could get out of control, so I know how frustrated you must feel. A lot of it is something dogs grow out of with age.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I would say keep him out of the bedroom except for going to sleep at night at least for now. If he only associates the bedroom with quiet sleeping time, it may help reduce his excitability while there.

Try leaving a harness on him rather than a collar so you don't have to reach for his collar. When you're home, you can also leave a traffic loop or tab leash on the harness so that you have something to grab and guide him into another room if needed. 

I would continue the time-outs for the overexcited jumping and mouthing. But make them shorter-- whatever the shortest time it is for him to calm down like 3,4 or 5 minutes maybe rather than 10 minutes. Then as soon as he is calm, reward him with a treat but do so in a very calm manner with a relaxed "Goood boy" rather than "Yay! Good boy!" (Hard to convey tone over the internet but basically you want a nice pleasant voice but not a high pitch or upwards inflection)

If he isn't destroying stuff while you are gone, he is probably not particularly bored. He will probably relax more over the next 1-3 months and just find a place to nap and look out a window. If he doesn't have a bed of his own in the den, he might like that so he can have "his" spot. Don't call him to you in the mornings by saying "Come"- you don't want to burn the phrase for recall by connecting it with something he dislikes (being left alone, nail trims, bathes, anything of that sort). You can make a new command or just walk him into the den calmly by a lead or harness.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the update! Glad Argo is mostly settling in well. 

In addition to the advice Elrohwen and Shell offered, I'd suggest some of the following
- on days when you and he can't get as much physical exercise, add more mental exercise
- Kikopup (and I think Tab289) has several videos on training a settle cue and reinforcing calm behaviors; although it will take time for Argo to learn well enough to respond when he's in his zoomies mood, the training can't hurt
- (not sure if this has already been mentioned) work on impulse control (e.g., doggy zen, it's yer choice); again, it won't help immediately, but the training can help work his brain and tire him out
- not sure if this will work for the den issue, but I might try approaching it like a recall - you may have read suggestions to recall and immediately release - I'd call him into the den (_not_ using his recall cue), give a treat or play a game or do whatever is reinforcing for him, and then release him from the room
- you might try crate games but use the den instead of a crate


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks, good tips. 

The only harness I have for him right now is an Easy Walk. I could perhaps leave that on him following outings and remove it after he's in the den for the day.

He does have a bed in the den, but I'm not sure he uses it when I'm gone. He's VERY good about behaving when left alone. While he will try to get into the garbage and climb counters when we're there and he's excited, I've yet to return home to any kind of mess or destruction. For that, I am thankful. 

I too think exercise is the issue. He's a very energetic dog, and he Loves to get outside. When I get home from work he runs all over the house to find his fetch ball and then sits by the door with it. He's actually more motivated by his ball and fetch than by treats. He used to get 30 minutes in the morning and then an hour in the evenings, plus mental exercise. I'd like to do even more than that if possible, but recently he's been getting less. I'm going to try and get back to that same level of exercise and then see how it impacts his behaviour. My guess is it's a combination of his age and exercise needs not always being met.

Tug is a good idea. I haven't taught him that game yet, mostly because he absolutely destroyed the first tug toy I bought him within a few days and I haven't replaced it yet. But he does have a ball with a tug string on it so perhaps I'll teach him tug and see if games like that could help, especially on days with less outdoor exercise. 

The one thing I worried about was where to do timeouts. It's easy enough if we are in the bedroom or bathroom because we can lock him outside of the room and he does pretty well just patiently waiting (with a bit of whining). The other rooms upstairs aren't really suitable for locking him IN for a timeout though - is locking OUT as effective as locking IN? Also a concern, when he's really worked up and I move toward him to get his collar to take him out of the room (if he's not coming out when called), he pulls away and darts around, sometimes making vocal noises (not really growls, more like grunts/moans). I think he's just playing and trying to keep away while knowing I want to remove him, but I worry that this behaviour is due to fear or uncertainty.

Also, downstairs I'm less sure. Sometimes when we're eating and he's very worked up (to the point where even leashed he's hard to control) we will put him in gated den. He'll usually calm down (at least until we let him out), but should I worry about doing timeouts in the same place he stays during the day? So far these aren't very common as I've been unsure about this. The kitchen is difficult too. Sometimes he just won't stop jumping on the counter when we're there. In those instances we try to distract him with training and treats for keeping focus on the commands. We're also trying to train him to stay on his bed in the den (has view of kitchen), but he's not good at this yet. Perhaps locking him outside of the den/kitchen as timeout would work.

Edit: Thanks cookieface. I have used the Kikopup settle cues, although it's still a work in progress. Argo does quite well up to the mid levels of Zen, although we haven't worked much on the last few stages. We're trying to continue to reward calm behaviours, and he seemed to be getting the message over the past couple of weeks until the last 2-3 days when he's been extraordinarily restless.

Thanks for the input everyone, really appreciate it and any other advice.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Just want to say you're an awesome owner!

About the tug toy, I'd only have it available to him if you and he are actively playing. Otherwise, it gets put out of reach. That should prevent him from destroying it _and_ make it more special.

Not sure about the timeouts and den. I would think that anything that separates him from you when he's rowdy would work (and it sounds as though it is). As long as the method is effective and humane, I'm not sure (in this instance) that the details matter so much. For timeouts in the den and keeping him out of the kitchen, why not give him something he likes (e.g., kong, antler, bully stick) on his bed. He'll be occupied, associate good things with his bed (and the den), and won't be practicing undesired behaviors.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ya, the first tug toy I bought was when I first got him. He got a hold of it one day and tore it apart before I realized that was the toy he was chewing. 

We do try to occupy him in the evenings, generally when we eat or if/when we want to sit down and watch some TV or relax. He generally gets a stuffed Kong around this time. He gets bully sticks on the weekends usually, and he has an antler he likes available most of the day. I could try giving him the Kong earlier (when we're making dinner) though. I was also thinking it might be helpful to have one of us do commands with him in the den (or on his bed) while the other cooks. Like I said, he's well behaved when it's just one of us, so perhaps removing the 2-person situation and asking him to do good behaviours might also help.

Oh, and since he's such a pretty boy, here are some newer pics:



















2nd picture is him sleeping on his Ottoman. He loves that thing since it's set right next to our bay window. He chews his toys there or perches and stares at the world outside (at which he barks sometimes, but oh well  )


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Aww, what a cutie!

If he's being a pain in the kitchen, I would just lock him out. Training to go to a mat/bed is great, and working on commands is great, but sometimes you just need them out of there and it's fine to shut him in the den. We still have baby gates all over to randomly lock the dog into or out of certain rooms if he's doing something annoying. For example, if we're in the library watching tv and he is pacing around the kitchen whining at the rabbits (who he can see from the kitchen), he gets gated into the library until he settles (in this case his timeout is in the same room as us, but away from what he's fussing about). The details of the room don't matter. If he's jumping on you and being rowdy, he goes somewhere else where he can't get to you. I agree with keeping a short tab leash on his collar or something so you can easily grab him. When he's not rowdy, I'd work on grabbing his collar and giving him a treat, so he learns to associate collar grabs with good things and doesn't play the catch-me-if-you-can game so much (though that game is pretty common if they know you're going to put them in timeout). The timeout doesn't have to be a punishment really, and he doesn't need to think of it as one - it's more like saying "You aren't being appropriate, so sit here by yourself for a minute to calm down".


----------



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Good boy Moose! Hang in in there, you guys are making good progress.
You could try the following games. Start at the earliest signs of over-arousal.
1. have low value treats in your pocket
2. at earliest signs of excitability run him thru some exercises like touch (your hand with his nose), watch me, sit, jump up. Do it at a fairly quick pace, use a marker word or click and deliver the treat by dropping it on the floor. Try to make it pleasant, calmly playful if that makes sense, don't talk much and keep a calm quiet voice, just enough to engage him. Run thru maybe 10-15 treats.
3. release him, then go about your business.
4. repeat as necessary
If he's too far gone and won't/can't play your game I would do the short time outs. Multiple short time outs in a row might help him get the picture. Instead of taking his collar, lure him with a high value food treat to his place. I would just practice taking his collar or better, leash at odd times, using rewards. Be aware if you leave the harness on he probably will chew the belly strap in half eventually.
Impulse control games I do with my mouthy adolescent:
1. take a toy you can throw
2. have Argo sit, squeak the toy and quickly throw it
3. when he goes after it, applaud! when he brings it back, "good boy," gentle tug play as reward
4. drop it into your hand. I use a hand signal for drop it at first. You could throw a food reward in to sweeten the pot.
5. immediately he drops it, ask for sit, squeak the toy and quickly throw it and repeat! great fun for MY dog anyway. We add other things after the sit, like watch me, or she must look away for 1-2 seconds before I throw the toy. She likes 5-6 step games like that, makes her think. Same idea with a flirt pole for more exercise, tho you probably want him in a fairly calm state first for something that exciting.
Another mental game we do is Find It:
1. Take her favorite toy
2. Sit and stay
3. Go out of sight and hide the toy
4. Return the dog and release her to find it.
5. When she finds it, make a big fuss, play fetch a few times and repeat. Daisy really prefers the find it part though.
You could use a stinky treat instead of a toy of course!
The main idea of the above is to just change the dog's focus from over-excited play to pleasant happy play so he can transition to being calmer. Just try to change his focus before he gets all "oh what the hell, I'm going for it attitude," know what I mean?
Of course the most important thing to learn is recall, would practice that in the house once or twice a week. Might be hard since he's already always by you! But you and your wife could team up, maybe one of you upstairs and one of you downstairs and call him between you.
Bet he calms down a lot as he gains maturity with your thoughtful care. Lucky dog!


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ya, he has made a lot of progress in certain ways.

Last night I tried to return to some of the things I was doing earlier - maintaining a calmer disposition myself, in addition to extra attention/exercise. It was too cold for a long walk yesterday but we spent an hour doing physical exercise and then a bit of mental exercise when I got home from work. I started teaching him tug, which he seems to enjoy... he loves the tug toy I bought last night. He kind of wants to chew the toy, but figured out 'tug' a few times and seemed to like it. He's very strong, which makes it fun. I kept the sessions short and tried to begin teaching the rules of the game, but his eyes light up when he sees his tug toy (same as when he sees his fetch ball). He LOVES to play I think, and it motivates him a lot more than food (although he is very food motivated). Although he started to figure out 'drop' as part of the tug game, the first few times I was almost literally shoving a handful of hotdogs up his nose and he still cared more about the toy  

He was pretty well behaved last night, at least compared to the previous few nights. He wasn't as rude about seeking attention, but still needs to work on 'how' he gives/gets attention. When I'm alone with him and he shows me he wants attention, I call him onto my lap and he will sit or get a fuss or chew a toy on me, but he's relatively polite about it. When it's my wife and I together, even if he's polite in showing he wants attention, he still often gets mouthy and/or shoves his face into ours/hers, which really bothers my wife. I think my wife needs some additional confidence with him, because her uneasy and unsure mannerisms perhaps contribute to Argo's behaviour?

After my wife went to bed Argo chewed his antler for nearly an hour. He didn't really relax/sleep near me like he had been doing for a while, but he was at least capable of entertaining himself. He was still a bit worked up when I put him to bed, but his slight struggle going into the crate was short-lived. This morning he was also good. We again played fetch/tug for about 30 minutes and then he was good about relaxing on his Ottoman until I left. I again had to lead him into the den though - even with high value treats like hot dogs or these duck treats he loves, he won't come when he knows it's den time lol.

Thanks for the suggestions goodgirl. The 2nd one is basically how we play fetch - he must sit and/or do something else before I throw it. Some of the other suggestions are quite good, especially the hide and seek game. We are just starting to really work on recall and I also wanted to try hide and seek with my wife and I - might be a fun addition to recall training. 

It's fun watching him grow up and I feel like he's already made so much progress. I guess I just get nervous sometimes because I know my wife is still adjusting. She's never owned a dog before. She really likes Argo, but some of the things he does that are just puppy/doggy things (ie. mouthing, rude face shoving, etc.) bother her more because she isn't as comfortable around dogs in general. This stuff bothers me because I want a well-behaved dog, but I grew up with dogs and know how to handle and interpret his behaviour. She isn't there yet, but I also know it isn't fair to put that on Argo. So it's a multi-party learning curve.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

mooseontheloose said:


> Ya, he has made a lot of progress in certain ways.
> 
> Last night I tried to return to some of the things I was doing earlier - maintaining a calmer disposition myself, in addition to extra attention/exercise. It was too cold for a long walk yesterday but we spent an hour doing physical exercise and then a bit of mental exercise when I got home from work. I started teaching him tug, which is seems to enjoy... he loves the fetch toy I bought last night. He kind of wants to chew the toy, but figured out 'tug' a few times and seemed to like it. He's very strong, which makes it fun. I kept the sessions short and tried to begin teaching the rules of the game, but his eyes light up when he sees his fetch toy (same as when he sees his fetch ball). He LOVES to play I think, and it motivates him a lot more than food (although he is very food motivated). Although he started to figure out 'drop' as part of the tug game, the first few times I was almost literally shoving a handful of hotdogs up his nose and he still cared more about the toy


Sounds like you can make toys into a really great reinforcer for him! One thing you can do with tug is teach him to bring the toy to your hand. So let him have it, then jog backwards and act exciting. You want him to run up to you and push the toy at you. I have the most success with this if I lean back a little and encourage him to jump up on me with the toy. If I stop moving and lean forward, he just lays down and chews on it. So in addition to working on drop, you can work on him bringing it to you as part of the game.



> I think my wife needs some additional confidence with him, because her uneasy and unsure mannerisms perhaps contribute to Argo's behaviour?


This is definitely possible. Dogs know when people aren't comfortable with them, and sometimes they get weird about it. It could just be that he's mistaking her signals for "jump in my face and be obnoxious". And sometimes when we're not relaxed, they just can't relax and get anxious. I can understand why a non-dog person would be nervous about a big adolescent dog in their face, but hopefully she gets more comfortable with him soon!


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> This is definitely possible. Dogs know when people aren't comfortable with them, and sometimes they get weird about it. It could just be that he's mistaking her signals for "jump in my face and be obnoxious". And sometimes when we're not relaxed, they just can't relax and get anxious. I can understand why a non-dog person would be nervous about a big adolescent dog in their face, but hopefully she gets more comfortable with him soon!


This is something I've started considering more. It's clear they aren't as comfortable with each other as he is with me, and not just because he's known me longer. There isn't much a dog can do that would startle me, but that's because I've been through a lot with dogs while she's only been around them when visiting my family, her friends, etc.

For example, when she goes to pet him (especially if he's a bit worked up) her arm movements are very timid. Sometimes she'll pull her hand back quickly if he mouths in its direction, even if no contact is made. Also, when he does bad things like mouths her bath robe or steals socks/shoes, I'm always the one who retrieves them and/or disciplines him (ie. time out). I'm trying to encourage opportunities for them to be home alone together, and they do spend mornings together, although much of that is spent on his breakfast and my wife getting ready to work. I'd like to do more to help them out, but I'm not sure there's much I can do and it may be up to her. 

She is definitely uncomfortable when he's riled up and gets near her face. He's mostly gentle when licking my face when we're alone, but as a trio he is a bit more pushy. I am confident he isn't going to bite or intentionally hurt me, but it freaks her out a bit when he gets into her face like that. Being nervous due to that I think causes he to act nervous when he's worked up and comes for attention.

I guess it's all an ongoing process and they both need to grow on each other, but it just adds another layer to the whole thing. They seem to get along well though, and she likes him a lot.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

mooseontheloose said:


> For example, when she goes to pet him (especially if he's a bit worked up) her arm movements are very timid. Sometimes she'll pull her hand back quickly if he mouths in its direction, even if no contact is made.


Yeah, that can make a lot of dogs even more jumpy and mouthy because they interpret it as play, or at least aren't seeing any signals that indicate they should stop.

Just a quick story on this topic: My own dog loves people and has always been friendly with just about everyone. Over Christmas I visited my parents and the neighbors came over with their college age kids. The younger one doesn't remember when they had a dog, so he really doesn't have any dog experience, and was clearly a bit nervous around Watson. In response, Watson actually barked at him, a lot, and didn't know what to do. Sometimes it looked like Watson wanted to play (he was barking and play bowing), but if the kid tried to pet him he would jump away and bark again. It was so weird and definitely obvious that he was confused because the kid was nervous and making jerky movements. It can really throw a dog off, even if they are normally pretty bombproof.


----------



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Random stuff:
I think a dog can learn to behave differently around different family members and still be happy with all. It's great there are 2 of you to team up, all the more fun for Argo! I've learned to never under estimate the power of ignoring a dog. Like if you 2 are together doing something or just sitting and don't want him in your faces can you just kind of push him off? Don't speak to him except maybe for a one time low quiet off, don't even LOOK at him, even turn away from him. You can fake yawn, ho-hum, take a deep breath, keep relaxed...low value/verbal rewards as he calms and starts to sit, then lie down, then lie on his side.
If your wife doesn't want him around when he's worked up, she could try that kind of thing. If there is a particular trick she would like him to know she could teach it. Once or twice a week for less than 5 minutes a session should do it. It might be good if she concentrates on impulse control and hand zen games. Maybe she would feel more in control and comfortable.
When I adopted my big dog from the shelter I found certain words and actions were, for lack of a better word, polluted. A stern no, or stern anything, just escalated things. Whereas refocusing her attention works. Hand signals and less talking sure seemed to clarify things for her. After a full year she rarely bites at me anymore and is much calmer and happier. She was giving me big hematomas and broke the skin on my hand once before I learned how to help her. But I still have to watch her after excited play, episodes of reactivity to another dog, even longer leash walks (too MUCH exercise), or anything that likely raised her adrenaline level. It can take a few DAYS for that to clear from her bloodstream. It also helps if she has outside off-leash time in our pasture, or a familiar place in the woods; controlled play like your fetch and tug games are better than uncontrolled excitement. Routine means everything to her. She's just kind of a hyper dog. She's finally become an affectionate dog about 9 months in, we've been together for a year now. Hey, it's a process!
For more indoor exercise for Argo, can you and wife practice recall making him run up and down stairs? There are some great threads on here about recall. Also, to practice the off/up cues, have him jump off and on the furniture really fast, over and over - lol! 
I wonder too about what you mentioned about a timeout in the den, his place of rest. If you have other options you could try it. But then I wonder about how much we should cater to our dogs and what is more convenient. 
My other dog is a little guy, I adopted in Oct. He gets quite anxious about me leaving, but is getting much better. I read somewhere about giving him his "I'm leaving" treat toys earlier, when he can tell it's coming and starts the anxiety. So now he gets 2, the second one as I walk out the door! Spoiled boy. He doesn't know it, but I hold back some of his breakfast for one of them. It seems to help. They love having some of their kibble in an empty soda bottle or milk jug. Neither are super-strong chewers. Altho I don't hold back more than half of the meal just for digestive health reasons, read somewhere about that, too. The favorite seems to be beef bones tho - if you get the tube shaped ones you can re-stuff them. Nylabones are great for a strong chewer, especially if you smear them with something tasty at first until they get them started and chewed down a bit.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Still working on the issues recently discussed but have an unrelated concern. Might make a new post in one of the other sections but figured I'd try here first.

Argo's chest fur seems to be thinning. He's always had bald spots at his arm pits and no hair in the groin area, but I think his chest fur is also thinning now. It's hard to judge for sure because I can't remember what it was like when I first got him, but I don't remember it looking like it does now. His chest area (underside) has thinned (I think) and there are patches where you can see his skin. His chest fur (below throat) also feels thinner than it used to. This morning Argo's ears also seemed to be bothering him - he was scratching at one and kept shaking his head from time to time.

Any ideas? My first thought was an allergy, but I'm not sure. If it sounds like an allergy, is it more likely food or environmental, or would symptoms be the same for either?

For food he's still on kibble for now (Merrick Grain-free Duck & Sweet Potato), which he's been on for about a month now. Before that he was on Go. Aside from kibble he gets a Kong daily and it is usually filled with a mix of kibble and 1-3 of the following: hot dogs, plain yogurt, hard boiled eggs, bananas, cheese.

I'm thinking about cutting out dairy to see if that could be the problem, although I have no reason to suspect it is. Anyone have any recommendations to try and figure out what's going on? How quickly should I expect to see results when withholding potential food allergens?

Should I take him to a vet now instead?

Thanks


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Could be demodex. I would see the vet.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Definitely see the vet. 

You might try stuffing the kong with the same ingredients that are in the kibble as well. Stuff with chunks of boiled potato and canned fish maybe. Think if the weather has changed, is pollen count up and such too. Pollen is high in my area, don't know what the heck is blooming though. Is grass sprouting? Mold? New detergent? Max had nasty ear problems with sardines but his coat didn't change at all.

Ginger came here 6 months ago with a thick coat, extremely long and thick furred tail but with bare chest and tummy that didn't seem a result of her flea infestation. Bit by bit her coat thinned and her tail became absolutely scraggly over 4-5 months. This month I am seeing more fur. Her chest and tummy have fur now [her tummy was shaved for spay surgery of course], the tail is getting plumy again and so on. I am guessing the regular shedding plus change in food plus complete change in household is the reason it thinned and I am hoping to see her best fur coat in the next couple years. Never had the same thing happen with Max but it did with Sassy as well. Some years she would seem nearly bald after shedding out the winter coat.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ya, that is why I was a bit concerned. It's still winter here (Canada) so environment shouldn't be the cause, especially since I started to notice this a few weeks ago but wasn't sure I wasn't just imagining it.

He's been home over 2 months now so I'm not sure it could be from the adjustment. He does still stress out when we leave him (though settles while we're gone), but again I'm not sure that would be the cause. I finally found some old pictures of him that seem to prove the fur has definitely thinned. 

Will see about a vet appointment. Thanks everyone.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Sassy started her spring shed in January. Coldest month of the year [not very cold though in southern California] is February here, no idea dogs shed like that but they do. There was a recent thread on dogs filling the house with fur and most of those people don't live in a warm place either.


----------



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Agree, would take him to the vet to be sure, especially if it seems to be spreading. They can do a skin scraping if needed. If it's something that could be contagious you really want to nip it in the bud. Demodex mange is pretty inexpensive to treat.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ya, we're seeing the vet tomorrow when I get off work. 

So far it seems to only be affecting his chest, but it's not really improving and seems to have moved to his upper chest. His ear(s) bothering him this morning is what made me think it could be worth a vet visit. He also developed a few small skin tags near his groin area (where he doesn't have much fur). They are very small tags, some with black heads. He developed a few of them late last week but most are gone now.

His fur has also been changing colors, almost exclusively on his sides near his hind legs. It started with a few spots of darker fur (coin sized) but then more began to appear and a few are larger patches now. It's not super dark, but it's easy to spot. I spoke to a few people (including my trainer) about it and they didn't seem concerned, noting that their coats may change tints over time.

I'm now starting to wonder if it is all related, which has me concerned, but I wasn't sure what it could be. Hopefully we get it sorted out soon as I hate to think he's uncomfortable.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Good call everyone, turned out to be Demodex mange. They gave him some skin drops and just to be safe also prescribed a multivitamin and antibiotic to boost the immune system over the next few weeks while he recovers. Hopefully we will see some improvement soon; the fur loss was starting to get out of control and even to the touch it's obvious his skin/fur isn't healthy right now.

Poor guy, but at least he should be on the road to recovery soon. Thanks again.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Poor pup! Glad you got it figured out though.


----------



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

Glad he's OK and it's nothing serious! Poor Daisy had to take baths 2-3 times a week for a couple months when she had it - just to help clean out the hair follicles, she has lots of fur with a thick undercoat. But she was a good sport about it. And I learned she loved the blow dryer, would almost fall asleep during the process, like a spa day for her!


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Still working on getting rid of the mange 

I've recently been trying to teach calming with a 'spot' using a blanket, but am looking for a bit of guidance.

At the moment, it is myself and a friend living in my house. If either of us is alone, Argo will generally exist by himself. He'll come seek attention from time to time (by coming and sniffing, or by climbing on us) but once he gets a fuss he is fine to relax/exist. When there are two of us it is another story still. He's improved over the past few months but the issue is still there.

For example, when working on the 'spot' I have him tethered to my leg so he can't leave the blanket. He gets rewarded for calm behaviours. At this point when the leash gets attached and the blanket is out he is quick to settle onto the blanket (looking for treats) but will mostly stay there. If he isn't on leash then he generally ignores the blanket. When not on leash he often won't leave people alone - mostly my friend. If, for example, I'm watching TV and Argo is relaxing on the Ottoman, he will immediately run to my friend and climb on her if she tries to sit down. Standing and waiting for him to turn away doesn't work because once he sees her sitting again he comes to her. The issue isn't so much attention seeking, but the fact that he does so by climbing right into her lap and sometimes mouthing. He does this with me too sometimes, but very rarely and usually only when he's waiting for exercise/walk. 

What else can we do to help him relax and improve these behaviours?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

What are you feeding him? Food can also further aggravate skin conditions, ESP in dogs that already have a compromised immune system. I would go with a good quality grain free food


----------



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

It sounds like he's settling in well for you! Had a couple of questions...do you clicker train at all? Also, does he have a nice default behavior? For example, when you're working with him and he's waiting for the next cue, maybe he sits and looks up at you? Or when he's not sure what he's supposed to do, what's the behavior he defaults too? That might be a good place to start...kind of build on that.

If you clicker train, or even if you don't, you could check out kikopup's youtube channel. I like the mat training and default behavior info in Leslie McDevitt's book "Control Unleashed - the Puppy Version."

You could also try the following: when he won't leave your friends alone, have them totally ignore him and leave the room for a couple minutes. Only give him attention when he has 4 on the floor. Then make it calm, quiet attention. Have them be boring! If he's a little too amped up for that you can remove him to a different room for a couple minutes, might help. 

I keep raving about that kikopup video, "Using a positive interrupter," very helpful with my crew. I can see using a positive interrupter when he's bugging your friends and then redirecting him to his blanket and a chew toy or bone.

If you can capture the moments when he is relaxed, even dozing, drop him a treat casually and calmly as you walk by. I'd make it a fairly low value treat so he doesn't just get excited by it. You can even try settling him on a blanket with a bone or a nylabone smeared up with peanut butter or something. That could help him wind down after an exciting walk or playtime.

Just some ideas...he'll grow out of it - in a year or so!


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ya, I'm not that worried about it - I attribute it mostly to his breed and age. He's certainly still showing progress, otherwise it would bother me more. I'll check out Kiko again, thanks.

He seems very attached to me, which is sweet but also makes me wonder if I should try to change that?

Examples:

1. He follows me around the house at all times. He will sometimes leave the room I'm in, but not usually, and only once he knows where I am. If I shower, for example, he will sleep on the floor next to the tub (if door is closed) and/or sit/sleep in the hallway with a view of the bathroom (door open). 

2. If I lock him out of a room (getting dressed, for example) he will sit outside the door and wait for me. He will either lie down or sit, depending on length of time door is closed. He will typically whine or scratch at the door a bit, but if it is a long wait then he will eventually stop and wait patiently. If I go outside and someone else is inside, he will completely ignore that person (even if they have toys/treats) and stare out the window until I come back inside.

3. I'd been locking him in the kitchen + den using a doggy gate when I left the house. While locked up he basically ignored everything in there with him. He never went into the garbage or counter-surfed, and he'd even ignore his own toys and stuffed Kong until I came home again. From what I could tell, he would just sleep/wait until I got home.

4. When leaving him locked up he would whine Very loudly when first put in. As he watched me get my coat on and/or leave, he would whine desperately, but then (to my knowledge) he'd stop and wait patiently once I was out the door.

5. Recently he has started to 'play dead' when he realizes it's time to go in the gated den. He will not come for a lure like food or toys, or even a high value treat. If I come over to him he will basically 'play dead' and force me to literally carry or drag him in. Needless to say, I don't like having to do this or putting him through that. A few times now I've been running late and didn't have time to deal with that so I left him loose. In fact, he's been loose almost every day this week. From what I can tell, his habits are basically the same as in the den - he sleeps either against the front door or on the Ottoman (next to bay window) and doesn't seem to get into trouble. It seems like when the house is empty, he just waits for his people to come home. Moreover, when I'm getting ready to leave he is much calmer and doesn't whine. Even as I head out the door he lets me go without a fuss and then watches me from the window as I leave (but doesn't seem to whine/bark/pant with stress like in the den).

To sum up - should I be concerned about this? I imagine his behaviour falls into the 'SA' category, but I'm not sure if it's something I'll need to actively work on with him or if he will outgrow it as he gets more comfortable in his new life.

Also, should I feel confident about him being well-behaved alone? So far he's done a great job when left alone so I'm inclined to give him that freedom instead of the stress of being locked up, but I'm also worried about him becoming less behaved as he gets more comfortable alone.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I think you should make the area that you lock him up in more positive. Play with him in the area when you are home, feed him in the area, etc. Basically the same thing you would do with crate training.

Besides that I don't see anything wrong with him -- just sounds like he's a velcro dog  There are members on here who can't even go to the bathroom without their dog following them there lol!


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Ya, that's Argo ... follows me in or whines a bit if I lock him out.

Den/kitchen is already quite positive. His food/water dishes are in there, as are most of his toys. We play tug in the den and do most of his training in there as well. He loves fetch and I often throw the ball into the yard from inside the den (patio door open). 

If I close the gate while I'm inside with him he stays focused on the gate. He'll do his usual jumping/leaning to see the other side (bottom half of gate blocked off by plank of wood) and has a hard time not being distracted by it. 

Perhaps it's something about being gated? He does fine in his crate at night, so it's a bit perplexing.

I thought about gating with me inside and then rewarding calm behaviour as a possibility.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

mooseontheloose said:


> Ya, that's Argo ... follows me in or whines a bit if I lock him out.
> 
> Den/kitchen is already quite positive. His food/water dishes are in there, as are most of his toys. We play tug in the den and do most of his training in there as well. He loves fetch and I often throw the ball into the yard from inside the den (patio door open).
> 
> ...


Yeah you can do that. You can also close the gate, open immediately, and throw a treat and praise, and then start prolonging the time, etc. Just get him used to getting locked in there.

I would read up on crate training, and apply the same training techniques with your den/gate. 

Better to work on it now before it becomes a problem!


----------



## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

To me he sounds like an awesome dog with a strong bond to you. I guess shelter dogs are often clingy. If it were my dog and he wasn't chewing up the carpet, walls, and furniture or using the house as a toilet I'd give him freedom to run around on his own. With my fosters it seems to average 3 weeks or so until they're trustworthy. Mostly then it's a matter of separating my bigger dog so she doesn't rough them up too much playing. Puppies are another story! Somewhere I read that 15 minutes of fussing or crying is normal when you leave, then most dogs will just go to sleep. I leave stuff for them to play with or work on. Of course you wouldn't be gone so long that he can't hold his bowel and bladder! Yep, I haven't gone to the bathroom alone for a year now...


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks everyone.

Him being clingy isn't a big deal, but I wanted to be sure it wasn't something I should address for his sake.

He certainly loves people in general, but there is a definite bond between he and I. Now he just needs to mature a bit 

He had his first play date with one of my sister's dogs last weekend and had a blast. Probably going to try with her other dog soon (more energy to match Argo's). Overall I'm pretty confident he's going to be a great buddy for many years, and my only 'complaints' stem from typical puppy-adolescent issues. So really, no complaints


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If he's done well being left loose much of this week, then I'd probably just clean the house well to minimize tempting things to mouth or chew and close doors to any rooms he shouldn't be in like a bathroom or bedroom and leave him be.

If he's relaxed and chill being left out, it will help him fight the mange since being calm is good for the immune system compared to being stressed out.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Shell said:


> If he's done well being left loose much of this week, then I'd probably just clean the house well to minimize tempting things to mouth or chew and close doors to any rooms he shouldn't be in like a bathroom or bedroom and leave him be.
> 
> If he's relaxed and chill being left out, it will help him fight the mange since being calm is good for the immune system compared to being stressed out.


Good point about the mange. Forgot someone previously asked about his food - he was on Merrick's GF Duck + Sweet Potato until this week when they were out of Duck so I got the GF Chicken + Sweet Potato version. I recently found out Fromm and Acana are available locally so I'd been considering switching to one of those, although I believe Merrick's GF has a good rep?

When leaving I put any shoes not being worn onto the dining room table and make sure nothing is really in reach except his own toys. So far he's been pretty good about it. Like I said, when I come home he always seems to be sleeping against the front door or on the Ottoman in the living room. I'm not sure that he actually even wanders the house all that much.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

OK, time for an update.










Overall Argo is still making good progress. He knows many of his commands quite well, although some things are still a work in progress. He and I will be moving into an apartment soon, which will be an adjustment for us both, but I plan to get back to more consistent training for daily habits (ie. going to his bed when I eat, etc.). Here is the biggest issue though, which has been a problem for months.

He LOVES to play and has trouble existing on his own. He loves to play fetch and his entire world revolves around it. Obviously this is great and I'm happy to play with him, but he just never gets enough and constantly hounds me to play or for attention. Daily example:

- I wake up and bring him down for his breakfast/pee. I go back up for a shower and he waits with me in the bathroom. Once I'm done he is worked up and will sort of bolt around when I get close to him (thinking it's time to play). If I go into bedroom to change, the second I open the door to come out he bolts downstairs. 
- We will play fetch for 20-30 minutes most mornings before I go to work.
- When I come home from work he will immediately find his ball (if it's on the floor) and go straight to the door. I feed him and then typically play fetch for 30-60 minutes. He also gets a walk in the evening most nights, and/or sometimes another short fetch session. 

In total he plays fetch 45-90 minutes most days, plus a walk. Problem? No matter how much he plays, it's never enough. Not only does it not tire him out, but he will constantly bug me to play more even right after we finish.

Example: 30 minutes of fetch then a 30 minute walk and the second we come in the door he wants to play fetch again.

In April my house went up for sale and I spent an entire day cleaning. We play fetch by leaving the patio door open and I throw the ball out from inside into the backyard, making it easy for me to play with him while I iron or cook or clean. That day I cleaned for 7-8 hours and played fetch most of that time (4-5 hours at least). Wasn't enough. After we finally finished and I tried to sit down, he still wouldn't settle. 

What I mean is, even after he burns off some energy, he seeks attention constantly (usually to play fetch). If I sit on the couch he might lie by himself and chew a bone for 15-20 minutes but then will come climb on me. He isn't polite about asking for attention as he just climbs right up onto me and tries to play. His used to involve a lot of mouthing but that is improving. He NEVER cuddles or seems content to just lie near me, unless I keep him up very late. Even if he is lying by himself, the second I make a big movement or stand up he bolts up and thinks it's time to play. 

I still can't sit at my computer with him in the room as he will just try to jump up on my outstretched arm and play. At this point I've had to resort to locking him out of my PC room when I'm on it. Sometimes I also give him kongs and put him in his crate to get 30-60 minutes of peace in the evening or on weekends.

He's a nice boy and I don't mind playing with him at all. I love watching him enjoy himself, but I'm honestly getting pretty fed up with the constant need for play and attention. I have no problem devoting a few hours a weeknight to him, but after almost 8 months of him being home with me it is still nearly impossible for me to sit down and watch an hour-long show without having to pause it numerous times or give up in frustration because he can't settle on his own. 

This is partly a rant and partly a request for advice. What exactly can I do here? The marathon fetch session seemed to prove to me that lack of exercise isn't the issue (he was no less calm/subdued that evening). He gets plenty of play time as is, plus mental treats (ie. kong) each day and mental exercise through training most days. He's just over 1.5 years old now so still young for a Lab, but I'm honestly shocked that this behavior hasn't improved much as he settled into the home. It's OK if he never turns into a cuddle dog or couch potato, but I also need to find a way to get him to relax and just exist in between his walks/play times.

Thoughts?


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the update! He's really quite handsome.

A few thoughts:
- Can you increase training time? Perhaps work on actively training settle or calm or impulse control along with other skills.
- Make fetch more mentally challenging by incorporating some training (e.g., sit and wait to be released to chase or toss the ball into tall grass or ground cover so he needs to search).
- Get involved in some type of training or sport that will burn up his excess energy. Something like nosework, rally-o, freestyle, or tracking might be good. Nosework and rally-o use mostly mental energy, but the freestyle and tracking use both. None of them require much specialized equipment or space (although I'm not sure about tracking - that might be difficult to practice on your own - others have experience).

If you haven't done so already, it might be time to consult with a professional trainer. They can assess the situation and make recommendations based on your specific needs. Pet Professional Guild and Council for Certification of Pet Dog Trainers are good places to check.

Here's some information about finding a trainer:
How to Choose a Trainer
How to Choose a Dog Trainer
How to Find a Good Dog Trainer

Good luck with Argo and with the move!


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

He is a beautiful dog, sounds like on the working side of labdom with at kind of play drive...

cptjack usu has a nice piece to say around teaching your dog to "settle", an "off " button can be taught, because one point that was made is that you can actually increase your dogs endurance by excercising and excercising, when instead dog needs to be taught to "settle"...

Kiko pups might have something on this...

here it is, check it out--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wesm2OpE_2c&feature=kp

good luck!


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Ugh, I posted but it was sent to moderation. If / when it's approved, it should appear before BernerMax's. Basic suggestions were to do more mental work with Argo: more training, especially with teaching a settle cue (thanks BernerMax for the link); make fetch more challenging; try a sport that uses more mental and physical energy like freestyle, nosework, or rally-o. You may also want to consider working with a qualified trainer who can make suggestions for your specific situation.

One thing I just remember was an exercise CptJack or Elrowhen has mentioned: sit on your dog. I think the idea is to condition a dog to settle. Hopefully whoever mentioned it will pop in to explain.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

You rang, cookieface? ;-)

Here is Sit on the Dog: http://sanityshome.blogspot.com/2010/01/sit-on-dog-aka-long-down.html

I'll admit I didn't do it as reliably as recommended, but it did help. I do still use it in classes or seminar if he's just being wild and not settling while I'm trying to listen.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Sounds like a retriever to me!

My Muggsy loved fetch like I love breathing air. It was constant, never ending, never enough. What I learned to do was create an "all done" gesture. I would hold up both hands, palms out, fingers spread and say "all done!" and then not play with him. I had to put up with a lot of begging and pestering for a while, but eventually he learned that all done was all done, don't bother me for a while.

I also taught him how to ask politely. He used to wing the toy at my head, then he would drop it on my feet (ouch!), so I taught him to sit with the toy in his mouth. The thing about this is, you have to reliably respond to that cue for it to work. If you ignore him asking politely, you'll discourage asking politely.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Thanks for the ideas, will look into them and see what works. I'm not sure if it's an obsession with play or just extreme restlessness.

For example, this morning I let him out of his crate, fed him and he had his pee. I went back upstairs to get a bit more sleep and decided to let him into the bedroom and on the bed with me (I haven't done this in months). I laid down under the covers. He tried to play/attack at first, then gave up. He lied on or near me briefly, grabbed a few toys/bones to amuse himself, etc. After about 15 minutes he went back to pouncing on me, shoving his nose in my face and nibbling at my hands through the blankets. Not once during the 15 minutes did he just relax/settle and lie with me - he was constantly looking for something to do. Eventually his tackling antics left him locked outside the bedroom for a short period before I got up.

I hate having to lock him outside of rooms, but sometimes he just won't stop and ANY reaction from me gets him more excited.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The above is my youngest/biggest dog.

Honestly? I crate him when he's being pesty, put him in a down and give him tangible rewards at increasing intervals so he stays lying down, because if I am just WAITING for him to settle and stop looking for something to do it, it is never going to happen. He's slowly learning that if he comes and lays down beside my computer when I'm working that I will eventually give him a bit of food. Or that if he downs in front of the couch when I'm watching television if he's quiet and not pesty, he'll get a treat or some attention. 

And also learned that if he's an obnoxious pest ALL the attention goes away and he's going to be removed for a little while and can try again. 

He doesn't settle on his own. He has no natural settle. So he's being taught one. It's not REALLY settling, but he thinks holding that down is doing 'something', because it eventually gets him what he wants and keeps me from strangling the life out of him.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

CptJack said:


> The above is my youngest/biggest dog.
> 
> Honestly? I crate him when he's being pesty, put him in a down and give him tangible rewards at increasing intervals so he stays lying down, because if I am just WAITING for him to settle and stop looking for something to do it, it is never going to happen. He's slowly learning that if he comes and lays down beside my computer when I'm working that I will eventually give him a bit of food. Or that if he downs in front of the couch when I'm watching television if he's quiet and not pesty, he'll get a treat or some attention.
> 
> ...


haha, ya this is basically what i've been thinking. Thanks, definitely helpful.

My solution lately has been to lock him out of rooms (when I'm inside) when he acts like that. Problem is when I open the door he's instantly worked up - almost like he associates seeing me with play time & high energy. I'm trying to only remove him when I've given him multiple chances to behave, but you're right, sometimes it's all I can do to not slap him haha


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

mooseontheloose said:


> haha, ya this is basically what i've been thinking. Thanks, definitely helpful.
> 
> My solution lately has been to lock him out of rooms (when I'm inside) when he acts like that. Problem is when I open the door he's instantly worked up - almost like he associates seeing me with play time & high energy. I'm trying to only remove him when I've given him multiple chances to behave, but you're right, sometimes it's all I can do to not slap him haha


Yeah. It's... a work in progress and requires an insane amount of patience and persistence. With Thud when he just *won't*, or the second he's back out and in the crate and is bouncing again, I literally leash him, make him do a down and then ignore him. Which... isn't easy because he's enormous and hyper but man. Off switch, dog. Learn one.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

One of my main concerns or questions is whether this is mostly related to age or if he's going to be a psycho forever...


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Eh. My dog is 18 months old and he's a giant breed mix and has been overall slow maturing. Most of these dogs are sane by the time they're somewhere between two and three. It takes a while, but they get there.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Sometimes I see glimpses of maturity with him  I think I need to continue to adjust my interactions with him. I like writing about him so just an update on things with room for advice:

1. Normal routine is Argo gets restless in his crate between 7 and 7:30, and I take him downstairs for his pee and breakfast. If I don't need to be up that early, I will often go back to sleep and he stays outside the bedroom (lies outside the door or downstairs in the living room). Can't let him inside without crating because he just pounces on me non-stop lol. When I get up and open the door, he springs up and bolts downstairs expecting me to start our normal morning game of fetch (while I get ready/eat). Last week my girlfriend got up before me and apparently, for the first time ever, he didn't go crazy. He was calm and sat in front of her as she came out of the door. She petted him and he even let her sit down next to him and give him a quick hug. 

Progress? I like to hope so haha. But he still goes nuts when he sees me.

2. Although it can be intrusive at times, him being so attached to me comes in handy. I can let him loose in fields and he stays fairly close, will not leave my line of sight and comes running if I run away from him. I can walk around my driveway/garage area with him off-leash (busy urban residential area) without worrying about him taking off as he just follows me everywhere.

3. Still struggling to get him to settle down in the evenings. I've found ways to keep him occupied so to speak, but there are gaps where he just doesn't know what to do with himself and resorts to climbing on me while I watch TV. Example - Dinner > 45-60 minutes of fetch or walk > recover peacefully from walk > climb on me once recovered.

If I give him a Kong while in the same room with him, he is totally distracted by it (or any other kind of special treat) and will ignore me even if I'm eating. Once he finishes he'll sort of settle while recovering from the effort, but shortly after he's back to climbing on me.

I wouldn't mind him wanting attention if he just wanted me to pet him, rub his tummy, etc. but he wants to play, play, play and literally climbs onto me (sort of roughly) trying to initiate play. I almost never, ever begin play shortly after this behavior (so as to not reinforce it). I typically just stand up, try to stay calm myself and continue watching TV while standing. I'll repeat the cycle of sit > climbed on > stand over and over. Sometimes he will clue in and go find a bone, and other times he won't so if I really need time to myself I'll go into PC room alone. I'd rather spend entire evenings with him after work and entire days on weekends, but going to another room is the only working solution when he just won't stop.

4. Noticed recently that one of his ears is quite red, and a little scaly. Redness went away for a day or two and has come back so probably going to go to vet on the weekend or early next week. His fur also feels a bit less soft than usual, and I think it's thinning on his chest a bit. He had mange earlier this year and was successfully treated with drops. I hope it's not back, both for his sake and my wallet's. Could the ear and fur be related (allergy?)?

Thanks!


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

Curious about the possibility of adding a 2nd dog to the home (medium-large size). I haven't socialized Argo much yet, but he never acts aggressively towards other dogs on walks or when we went to puppy classes. He just wants to play with any and all of them. When he met and played with my sister's dog he was well behaved (but overly excited) and they got along well. Planning to introduce him to my parent's dog, who's recently recovered from leg surgery, soon.

Is it possible that adding a 2nd dog could help improve some of the behavioral issues I'd previously noted with Argo? If he has a dog friend to spend the days with, is it possible he would bond with that dog and be a little less dependent on me for all of his stimulation/interactions? If the dog has a more laid back demeanor, is it possible that Argo might take cues from the 2nd dog if he/she enjoys relaxing and cuddling in the evenings? I don't 'expect' an immediate change in his behavior, but I'm curious about potential fringe benefits of adding a 2nd dog. Obviously playtime would also be more likely to get Argo's energy out if he's playing with another dog instead of just fetch or whatever.

Any thoughts? Not something I want to do immediately, but maybe later this year. Is it possible that adding another dog might actually be beneficial for a dog like Argo based on what I've written previously? Thanks!


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The only behavioral issue I've seen a second dog help with is separation anxiety. So no, I don't think a second dog is likely to help with Argo's issues, except a dog he can play with can help him burn more energy. 

IME, it's as likely for the new dog to pick up on poor behavior of the first dog than the other way around. If the other dog was super mellow, it might not get along with Argo and want to play all the time. If the second dog is more energetic, they might play but you're likely to have similar issues, or different issues entirely with the new dog.


----------



## mooseontheloose (Nov 26, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> The only behavioral issue I've seen a second dog help with is separation anxiety. So no, I don't think a second dog is likely to help with Argo's issues, except a dog he can play with can help him burn more energy.
> 
> IME, it's as likely for the new dog to pick up on poor behavior of the first dog than the other way around. If the other dog was super mellow, it might not get along with Argo and want to play all the time. If the second dog is more energetic, they might play but you're likely to have similar issues, or different issues entirely with the new dog.


Thanks. Those were my thoughts as well, which is why I was a bit skeptical about the potential benefits of adding another. There are probably still some positives to be had there if I'm willing to put in a lot more time/effort with both dogs. 

Will have to find a few more dogs for him to play/interact with and see how it goes. If my parent's dog didn't have such extreme SA, I'd have her sleep over sometime to see how Argo reacts.

Hopefully maturity kicks in soon and then I can get a friend for him without worrying about bad behavior transfer in either direction.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> The only behavioral issue I've seen a second dog help with is separation anxiety. So no, I don't think a second dog is likely to help with Argo's issues, except a dog he can play with can help him burn more energy.
> 
> IME, it's as likely for the new dog to pick up on poor behavior of the first dog than the other way around. If the other dog was super mellow, it might not get along with Argo and want to play all the time. If the second dog is more energetic, they might play but you're likely to have similar issues, or different issues entirely with the new dog.


I agree in general, although I still wouldn't get a second dog just to help one with separation anxiety either. Get a second dog if YOU- the human(s)- want a second dog. A very well matched pair may burn energy well playing the yard but each will still have their own emotional and behavioral needs. Even if both are well trained, both can and most likely will, have personality quirks that require time and effort on the part of the human. 

Personally, I don't leave dogs alone together when I go to work or leave the house. I mean, I'll leave the room, but not leave-leave. Even very friendly dogs can destroy the house by accident in fun romp but also the littlest tiff can up the ante into something dangerous. I know plenty of people who do leave dogs together while they are gone, I just personally don't see an advantage to it and I certainly wouldn't rely on the possibility of it working out in regards to adopting a second dog.

One option for you could be fostering. Ask for a dog that seems suitable to your dog. Somewhere around the same energy, around the same age, female is good. See what happens. You'll get a taste of working with two dogs and supervising two dogs and you will be helping another dog in the meanwhile.


----------



## froeschli (Aug 28, 2014)

You have to be stubborn, if not, you're looking at a lifetime of getting up early and taking the dog out to play at daybreak - my husband started ours on that habit, and has been grumbling about it for years. Funny part is, he's not even a morning dog. When DH is not home, my dog and i sleep in. I think I "growled" at him once for pestering me in the morning, now he just doesn't. He's even very careful to only wake DH when he needs to go out at night  gotta love smart canines


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>>> "is mostly related to age or if he's going to be a psycho forever..."

It is age related, but also he will be psycho forever, just less energetic. My Lab mix is almost 14yo and arthritic... and he's currently 'demanding' that I play with him, after a 30 min walk.  However, after 14 years, he will lie down and stare at me, eventually going to sleep...

Not sure if someone mentioned it, but your dog does not have 'separation anxiety (SA).' He wants to be with you, and he's intelligent, getting bored easily. SA is a 'phobia like condition where the dog NEEDS to be with you and gets scared/anxious when alone, frequently getting destructive to escape being alone. Most Labs just want to be with people, sometimes sticking like velcro. 

Settling - Labs need to chew, like smokers need a cigarette! Get him an 'indescructible' hard rubber bone and watch him calmly destroy it  If he finishes one Kong, Give him another! You can feed him his meals, using more than one Kong. You can also moisten the food with water, freeze it, then let him have it ... Should last at least 5 min. longer  You can give him a thinking toy, such as a Buster Cube, filling it with food and watching him toss it around to get the food.

Tug of war is a very good way to drain energy, but make sure to train specific rules, such as no grabbing, letting go on cue, stopping on cue, no pawing while tugging, growling is OK, etc. 

I still suggest finding a dog that has the same energy level, and let them play once a week. It may help drain the energy. 


Ears - Floppy eared dogs can get ear infections. The skin problem may not be the same as the ear problem, but the reduced immune system may also allow the ear infection. The Vet will diagnose, but a yeasty smell indicates a Yeast infection and an acrid or sweet smell may indicate a bacterial infection. The Vet has meds.... If he does have allergies, that can also increase the chance of ear infections.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Some dogs need to learn how to "settle", with Izze I had to tether her either to me (like be holding a leash) or to a sturdy piece of furniture if she got to worked up and couldn't settle herself. If she knew she couldn't move about and work herself up, she calmed down with her toy or chewie or whatever. Josefina was like that too when she was younger, once she learned where she was to settle and where it was appropriate to cut loose, she was fine.

For mine I NEVER EVER revv them up in the house, all play is done outside ONLY.


----------

