# Food for weight loss?



## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

If all goes well I will have a pretty dang obese dog from the local SPCA in about a month! I have been reading a lot about what food to feed her, and have found varying opinions. Initially I was dead set on Wellness Core Reduced Fat, but now I am reading people claiming the carb content is too high and there isn't enough calories for the dog to be energetic? Some people swear by it though, so I'm conflicted!

I'm really not an expert on dog nutrition, so this is kind of confusing to me! I do like how grain free has worked for my parents' dogs, so I personally would prefer to feed her grain free. Otherwise I am open to any kibble or canned options that people have had successful weight loss on! 

She needs at lose probably at least 30 lb overall and is a short pit bull who maybe should be around 50 lb, so this is not just a few extra pounds of chubbiness! I want her to be healthy and I just don't know if feeding her less of a 'non-diet' food would cut it. Help?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

What's your budget like?

Raw takes some extra effort and planning, but can be a very good way to tailor a diet for a dog's specific needs. No or very low carbs of course, the water weight helps the dog feel full, the chewing time seems to make the dog think they are eating more and you can select lean meats to have a lower than usual fat percentage.

Canned would probably end up more expensive than raw but a good canned food is going to be heavy on the meat and low on the carbs compared to a dry food. Merrick's 96% is good, I use it to fill Kongs and freeze them. 

Probably close in price to canned would be a dehydrated. Two low fat options are Grandma Lucy's PUREformance chicken and The Honest Kitchen Zeal. I prefer the Grandma Lucy's and the price is a little better. 

Annamaet Lean is a grain-free food that is very low in fat while still having a good protein content. Too many low fat foods are also low in protein and since the dog is healthy aside from her weight, she still needs healthy protein.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

My girlfriend and I are both graduate students in medical professions, so spending the extra time for raw just doesn't sound feasible or really worth it for us right now. It is something I'd like to consider for her and future dogs sometime down the line, but right now my time and energy needs to be focused on other aspects of both dog care and my own life! 

Is there anything about Annamaet Lean that would make it better than Wellness Core Reduced Fat? The Wellness has 33% protein and and ~11% fat, while Annamaet has 30% protein and ~8% fat. I am honestly not sure which one of those would be better. They're both grain free so I do like that!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Wellness Core Reduced Fat has a min fat of 10% and max of 12%, Annamaet has a min of 7% and a max of 9%

Calories per cup are nearly the same. 

Annamaet has slightly less ash content but both are on the low compared to many grain-free foods. Max 6.8% vs 7.73%

I'd say either one is a good food.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

I've been reading lately that low fat might not be the best option. I too am trying to get my dog to lose weight. Anyway, a vet told me typically he recommends higher protein and fat as this equals lower carbs. He said the higher fat will keep the dog full as opposed to a higher carb diet which will leave the dog feeling hungry more often.

So far, I'm having great success with my dogs weight loss. She has lost 3 ounces in 2 weeks (which is very good for her size). Currently she is on Nature's Logic Sardine formula 36% protein 8% fat. I bought this before I was told higher fat would be better. Needless to say, she acts like she is starving throughout the day since cutting back on this food. She was losing weight on her old food that was 38% protein and 18% fat just by cutting back and she didn't act hungry at all. Unfortunately I switched to lower fat because I thought that would help more.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Higher protein and lower carbs seem to work OK to make dogs lose weight ... along with exercise. Victor dog food is high protein with lower carbs and is grain free but the ash is kind of high.

I'm no expert but Zoey is doing well on Annamaet food. I feed her the Extra which is 26% protein but it is grain inclusive; they have the Lean as Shell said and they have the Ultra which is 33% protein but it's fat content is 20% I think.

The other thing as well is we all look at the side of the bag or use calculators and go by that - they are not the correct amount to feed ... you need to feed the appropriate amount for the activity and size of your dog. Just because it says feed 2 cups doesn't mean that the amount is correct for your dog. Zoey is 35lbs. and gets only 1 cup of food a day; when she starts getting some more exercise (nice weather) it's be increased to 1 1/3 a day and when she goes to daycare when we go on vacation it's increased even more because she's playing all day long.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I. Used Wellness Core reduced fat, with great success. While I haven't used it, others have had success with Annamaet lean.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My dogs would not eat Wellness Core Reduced fat very consistently. Now we're trying Annamaet Lean. My dogs aren't fat but Mia gets fat easily and so we're trying to keep on that. Her medical issues mean she needs to be kept very lean.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

My dog a Bichon was near 21 pounds and is now 18.3. I tried wellness Reduced fat and had to return the bag. he was sick on it. I am on my third bag of Annamaet lean, the low fat no grain bag. I also mix my own food in with it.I make him salmon, sweet potatoes chicken etc. I like it cause it is low fat high protein and low ash. I think Annamaet is a good food to try although I am no expert myself. He actually did very good when I home fed versus dog food.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

i think you should take the dog to the vet when you get him to make sure his
weight gain isn't medical. when my dog gains unneeded weight i cut back on the
food and treats.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

doggiepop said:


> i think you should take the dog to the vet when you get him to make sure his
> weight gain isn't medical. when my dog gains unneeded weight i cut back on the
> food and treats.


I believe that the dog has been to a vet for this already, although that is very good advice in general.

I would probably supplement the dry food with some low fat meat. Remember to subtract the calories of the meat from the kibble portion though. You can buy chicken gizzards and hearts at most grocery stores for about $1/lb. Gizzards are low in fat and they have natural glucosamine (not a huge amount but its a bonus). Protein packed and the water weight helps the dog feel full plus the food is a very high value item for most dogs so it is great for training.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

oops, i didn't read that anywhere.



Shell said:


> >>>>> I believe that the dog has been to a vet for this already,<<<<<
> 
> although that is very good advice in general.
> 
> I would probably supplement the dry food with some low fat meat. Remember to subtract the calories of the meat from the kibble portion though. You can buy chicken gizzards and hearts at most grocery stores for about $1/lb. Gizzards are low in fat and they have natural glucosamine (not a huge amount but its a bonus). Protein packed and the water weight helps the dog feel full plus the food is a very high value item for most dogs so it is great for training.





doggiepop said:


> i think you should take the dog to the vet when you get him to make sure his
> weight gain isn't medical. when my dog gains unneeded weight i cut back on the
> food and treats.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

doggiepop said:


> oops, i didn't read that anywhere.


It was a different thread, no reason you should have seen it. I would also say vet check first in general.


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

Ill give you the quick and dirty breakdown: mostly meat, fat doesnt make them fat, grains and corn to a minimum.

The longer story would be to look for a higher protein food. Some fruits and veggies in it are fine, just minimize grains and corn and soy. Dont worry too much about the fat percentages, fats are essential for their coat and skin. I would say to feed her both dry and wet, so if you have to go away for the weekend or something, you'll have easy to feed dry for her. Make more of her diet wet if you can. For her teeth, brushing and things to chew on are the way to go.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Minka, if fat doesn't make them fat then how come all weight management foods are very low in fat? If it makes people fat I would assume it would be the same for dogs? I'm just sayin. The only problem is I think my dog feels hungly for not having enough fat is his tummy.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Benjismom said:


> Minka, if fat doesn't make them fat then how come all weight management foods are very low in fat? If it makes people fat I would assume it would be the same for dogs? I'm just sayin. The only problem is I think my dog feels hungly for not having enough fat is his tummy.


Calories make people fat. Barring metabolism or medical issues, it is basically calories in vs calories expended. Different proportions of protein, fat and carbs can work differently for different people but on the whole, if you eat more calories than you burn, you can weight and vice versa. 

I think in general, a balance of protein and fat is the best. In kibble, I like about 3:2 ratio or about 30% protein to 20% fat or 35% to 23-24%. I let Chester gain a couple lbs last winter and when I dropped the kibble completely for a month or so in exchange for raw (so, very very low carbs), he dropped weight nicely without acting hungry or acting more hungry than a hound always acts 

Since dogs are far more on the carnivorous side than humans are, and a low-carb diet (Paleo for example) does work to drop weight in humans, then it stands to reason it would work well for dogs. In humans, a very high protein and low carb diet can stress the kidneys but for a healthy dog with no existing kidney problems, high protein is a good thing. They need fat for energy but too much fat can cause pancreatitis.


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

Benjismom said:


> Minka, if fat doesn't make them fat then how come all weight management foods are very low in fat? If it makes people fat I would assume it would be the same for dogs? I'm just sayin. The only problem is I think my dog feels hungly for not having enough fat is his tummy.


Because most weight management plans don't actually work. 
Keeping on subject however, humans and dogs are completely different species. Wolves eat protein, fat and bone almost exclusively. It's what their bodies are made to process. Dogs after thousands of years can now also process our scraps, which includes vegetation, but it can't be their primary source of calories. Protein, fat and bone are still the winners. Too many carbs will make dogs fat. And most commercial foods that are low fat, replace the fat with, guess what? Carbs.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Light foods or reduced fat food etc is a gimmick designed to make you part with money. The key to weight loss is to eat less, not eat too much but of a light/reduced fat variety of food.

It's much easier to make dogs lose weight than for humans to lose weight. People are in control of what food they buy and eat and have to rely on self control to stay at a healthy weight. Dogs don't have a choice, they will eat what we feed them, so just don't feed them too much and they won't be fat.

Feed her the correct amount of food for her *ideal* weight and make sure you walk her every day, preferably not just along the street in the city or suburb, but on a long line in uneven terrain so she has freedom to move more and builds more muscle.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

One advantage of a low fat food in this case is that since so many treats are high in fat, it can help with not overloading the fat content when it is a new dog and they might be using a lot of treats. Yes, I know there are plenty of low fat treats too, but common things like peanut butter, cheese, hot dogs, sardines and such have a decent amount of fat.

If the price is similar to a normal fat food, then it might be easier to add a little fat separately to the kibble then to find low fat/low carb treats at a good price.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Okay, well we live in Center City Philadelphia with no access to uneven terrain. So basically her options for exercise are walks on the sidewalk or treadmill. 

I've read a lot of positive things about Wellness CORE Reduced Fat. I know she is already eating less and hasn't really lost weight. I don't think giving her less of a normal food will help her lose the 30+ lb she has... But maybe I'm super wrong? This food is grain free and has a lot of meat and high protein content. I think the low fat is just an added bonus that will aid weight loss. It's not a junk food with no protein and tons of fillers or anything.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Fairmount Park has some hills like around Lemon Hill and Belmont plateau,but also just wandering room. I wouldn't want her climbing real hills or stairs much yet being that overweight. So just long walks and meandering walks would be what I'd start with, such as looping around UPenn campus. Letting her have room to move left and right and not just in a straight line on a leash will be better for muscles and joints.


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

Eenypup said:


> Okay, well we live in Center City Philadelphia with no access to uneven terrain. So basically her options for exercise are walks on the sidewalk or treadmill.
> 
> I've read a lot of positive things about Wellness CORE Reduced Fat. I know she is already eating less and hasn't really lost weight. I don't think giving her less of a normal food will help her lose the 30+ lb she has... But maybe I'm super wrong? This food is grain free and has a lot of meat and high protein content. I think the low fat is just an added bonus that will aid weight loss. It's not a junk food with no protein and tons of fillers or anything.


What was she eating at the shelter though? And how much? They may have said they cut down but if that amount is still too much and she is sitting around all day, it won't make much difference. 
Wellness isn't a junk food no, but you have to remember that with the lower fat that puts carbs way up at 46.5%.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Eenypup said:


> Okay, well we live in Center City Philadelphia with no access to uneven terrain. So basically her options for exercise are walks on the sidewalk or treadmill.
> 
> I've read a lot of positive things about Wellness CORE Reduced Fat. I know she is already eating less and hasn't really lost weight. I don't think giving her less of a normal food will help her lose the 30+ lb she has... But maybe I'm super wrong? This food is grain free and has a lot of meat and high protein content. I think the low fat is just an added bonus that will aid weight loss. It's not a junk food with no protein and tons of fillers or anything.


It doesn't have to be uneven terrain every single day. It can be outings on weekends to beaches and parks etc.

Of course eating less of normal food will make her lose weight. Maintaining fat requires her to burn calories, so if she's eating fewer calories she can't maintain her current level of body fat and will burn it as energy instead.

It's like in humans. You don't need to go on a crash diet consisting only of smoothies and shakes to lose weight. A healthy diet that is maintained long term is all it takes. It may take a little longer, but it's healthier and more sustainable.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

All right, would something like Acana Wild Prairie be better? 31% protein, 17% fat, and something like 34% carbs if I'm figuring it out right. So theoretically the fact that this is higher in fat but lower in carbs might make it a better idea for her? And just reduce the amount so she's eating at what a 50lb-ish dog would eat?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Ginger is an ongoing project but I did get Max's extra weight off. Took a year and he needed to go from 44 to 38 pounds, quite a lot. I thought he needed to get back to 33 pounds but he ended up with more muscle than he had had. 

The last of it didn't come off from restricting food, came off by feeding really big really lean hard to eat stuff which for raw fed Max was whole prey lamb and baby goat. The meals lasted for 30-90 minutes per day and he could get quite active, backing away, shaking it and such to get the right angle on it. For this reason I wonder if feeding her by hand, scattering her food so she gets to hunt it down, using it for training and feeding anything left from puzzle toys isn't the way to go as well as choosing a kibble high in protein with moderate amounts of fat. You may not have mountains to climb but keeping her up and moving more is really the goal.

As for uneven terrain, a friend used to walk her elderly dog through ground cover. That isn't a nice thing to do but what about unmown grass? Stairs count. My local park has berms separating the playing fields. Be sure to just walk her slowly through until she is close to her goal weight, don't want to blow out knees.

I don't think the super low fat kibbles are a good idea but if they could just puff up or change the shape of the kibble so where 1 cup of regular kibble might be 100 grams to 100 grams is more like 1.5-2 cups it would help people like me who think their precious darling puppy wuppy will starve with that tiny bit of food in that big bowl. I am not kidding, Max got fat when I couldn't feed him 1.5 cups of home cooked chicken and rice a day as it didn't look like enough food and he got 2 cups instead. Course you would be buying what feels like a giant bag of popped popcorn.........


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes I was definitely planning on using puzzle toys and probably taking a bit of her food for training purposes. Figured I could just measure out what she needed for the day and then take a little bit out to use for training, especially since she'll be new and I don't know if green beans will cut it for 100% of her training! 

We'll be living on the second floor of a walk up, so she'll have to use stairs at least a bit. Don't know if I want to push it much more than it will be necessary at first. I'm thinking it will be enough going up and down stairs to come and go from the apartment. Don't want to mess up her joints! 

And I don't think I'll feel bad about feeding less food! What makes me feel bad is looking at her and how obese she is now, knowing how hard it must be for her play! She loves playing and going for walks, but poor girl is just not fit enough!


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

Eenypup said:


> All right, would something like Acana Wild Prairie be better? 31% protein, 17% fat, and something like 34% carbs if I'm figuring it out right. So theoretically the fact that this is higher in fat but lower in carbs might make it a better idea for her? And just reduce the amount so she's eating at what a 50lb-ish dog would eat?


It comes out to 43% carbs, give or take. You have to convert to dry matter basis to figure it out. I've heard great things about that brand. 

Because she is So overweight, I would feed her for a dog who is supposed to be 70lbs first. Then when she stops losing weight on that amount, ratchet it down again. 
And because all foods have different calorie counts and the amounts on the bags are usually off, it may take a bit to figure out how much you need to start her off on.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

So then if the carb content is so similar to Wellness CORE, what would make that a better choice?


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Here's what I would do. I would have a decent food picked out that is at or under 400 calories per cup. (I feed dry + canned for the majority of the time, and I Feed my dogs by number of calories vs. "cups") 
I am super happy at the moment with Precise Naturals line, because my dogs have not done well on the high protein/fat foods that everyone else loves. 
Anyway... Figure out how much he "should" weigh, and then figure that in your calories. Dogfoodadvisor.com has a calorie calculator that is helpful, and remember to adjust amounts down if you use treats for training. 

I add a good splash (don't float the kibble) warm water to the dry/canned right at feeding time, I don't soak, just give it to them like you would milk on cereal. The water will help the dog feel fuller, and it also stops the gorging at the water bowl after they eat. 

Baby carrots are excellent treats for weight loss/controlling weight. 

Congrats on your new guy


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

Eenypup said:


> So then if the carb cothere. is so similar to Wellness CORE, what would make that a better choice?


Imo Acana is a better quality food. You have to keep in mind that the guaranteed analyses are minimums/maximums, not set in stone. And a better quality food is more likely to actually have a much higher protein level (aka lower carbs) than what is put on the label. Smaller companies also tend to put much more effort into their foods. 
Case in point, back when Merrick was small, they had a Before Grain line. I fed this line to my cat because even though the bag probably said around 30% protein, there was actually much more in there. I found this out from someone who had contacted the manufacturer about it. 
Now that they've grown, Merrick no longer makes that line, or any of the foods my cat is able to eat in fact.. 
They are still a company I would recommend, but they are no longer way up there like they used to be. 
As far as I know, Acana is small and reliable, and I've never ever heard anything bad about them. They don't have added flavorings or things like pea fiber and tomato pomace like Wellness does. All of their ingredients are high quality and make sense. 

Really the food you pick depends on how much money you want to spend on it. There are even higher quality foods than this. Usually the best companies have the least gimmicks. If they have puppy, adult, indoor, outdoor, weight loss, senior, small breed, large breed, on and on and on, they have probably grown too large for their own good. (Some of those labels Are legit, but when you see 20 different types, it's my signal to be concerned..) 

In the end, only you can pick what is right for your dog. You have to decide what is or isn't important to you.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Minka said:


> As far as I know, Acana is small and reliable, and I've never ever heard anything bad about them. They don't have added flavorings or things like pea fiber and tomato pomace like Wellness does. All of their ingredients are high quality and make sense.


Acana Wild Prairie Ingredients:


> Deboned chicken, chicken meal, *green peas*, turkey meal, chicken liver oil, ﬁeld beans, red lentils, whole potato, deboned turkey, whole egg, deboned walleye, sun-cured alfalfa, *pea ﬁbre,* chicken liver, herring oil, whole apples, whole pears, sweet potato, pumpkin, butternut squash, parsnips, carrots, spinach greens, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, chicory root, juniper berries, angelica root, marigold ﬂowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, lavender, rosemary.


Wellness CORE Original ingredients:


> Deboned Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal,* Peas*, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Tomato Pomace, Chicken Liver, Natural Chicken Flavor, Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Oil, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins [Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Biotin, Folic Acid], Minerals [Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate], Choline Chloride, Mixed Tocopherols added to preserve freshness, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Green Tea Extract.


Both use peas, only Acana has pea fiber as a separate ingredient. CORE has 3 meats/meals before peas, Acana has 2. I don't see a huge difference. AFAIK, Wellness no longer purchases or manufactures any of their product line at the Diamond plants

IMO, there are good quality foods at all price levels and price alone doesn't tell me that a food is any better than another. 

For example, one of my go-to simple dry foods is Professional Active Chicken and Rice (30% protein, 20% fat) and it runs about $1/lb
(INGREDIENTS
Chicken, chicken meal, ground rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, dried beet pulp, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, yucca schidigera extract, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid.)


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

That's because you are comparing the wrong foods. 

Acana: 
Deboned chicken, chicken meal, green peas, turkey meal, chicken liver oil, ﬁeld beans, red lentils, whole potato, deboned turkey, whole egg, deboned walleye, sun-cured alfalfa, *pea ﬁbre*, chicken liver, herring oil, whole apples, whole pears, sweet potato, pumpkin, butternut squash, parsnips, carrots, spinach greens, cranberries, blueberries, kelp, chicory root, juniper berries, angelica root, marigold ﬂowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, lavender, rosemary



Wellness Reduced Fat: 
Deboned Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Peas, Dried Ground Potatoes, *Pea Fiber*, *Tomato Pomace*, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Chicken Liver, *Natural Chicken Flavor*, Ground Flaxseed, Salmon Oil, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins [Vitamin E Supplement, Beta-Carotene, Niacin, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Biotin, Folic Acid], Minerals [Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Calcium Iodate], Choline Chloride, Mixed Tocopherols added to preserve freshness, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Taurine, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum Fermentation Product, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus casei Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Product, Rosemary Extract, Green Tea Extract.

(will add more info when I have time)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Minka said:


> That's because you are comparing the wrong foods.


I was comparing CORE because the OP asked about CORE


Eenypup said:


> So then if the carb content is so similar to Wellness CORE, what would make that a better choice?


But overall, Acana does use a lot of legumes too. Many/most of the grain frees do.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I was specifically asking about Acana Wild Prairie vs Wellness CORE Reduced Fat. But I'm not against trying Wellness CORE Original, I just figured if Original was considered good that the Reduced Fat would be good too! I guess that's not true because of the differences in ingredients, right?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Eenypup said:


> I was specifically asking about Acana Wild Prairie vs Wellness CORE Reduced Fat. But I'm not against trying Wellness CORE Original, I just figured if Original was considered good that the Reduced Fat would be good too! I guess that's not true because of the differences in ingredients, right?


Ah, well then both Acana WP and the CORE Reduced Fat include pea fiber anyway. 

Food is a highly debated topic and there isn't really a one size fits all type food. I mean, it is pretty well accepted to stay away from things like added sugar, artificial colors, and the cheapest of the cheap "junk foods" that may not have any recognizable meat product but the details of specific fat and protein content or ingredients like peas, tomato pomace etc is a lot more subjective. 

If you like Wellness and want to stick with grain-free, I might suggest the CORE grain-free Ocean formula as a "new" protein since most foods (esp those fed at shelters) are chicken based and the fish oils may help keep her coat nice. 

I like the option of grain-free diets for dogs that don't do well with grains, but I've found that for many dogs, it isn't really worth the extra price to switch grains out for peas and potatos.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Ah, I see. So maybe grain free isn't necessary? I can check but I doubt she's on grain free at the shelter and nothing besides her weight seems out of the ordinary. Normal stools, nice coat, etc. 

I was looking at Acana Light & Fit, which isn't grain free, but on top of the grains it also has peas and potatoes pretty close to the top of the ingredient list. 35% protein and 10% fat, but I don't really get how to do the carbs calculations?

And maybe I'm over thinking all of this, but I tend to do that!  Maybe just try a high protein relatively low fat and carb food and see how she does? It's not like I can't change if she's not doing well or not losing weight.


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

Unless its canned (and even then) any healthy oils that were in the fish are basically gone. Its a much better idea to simply add fish oils to the food.
I personally wouldnt switch to a novel protein unless she already has sensitivities, but thats probably me just being paranoid because i have a cat with allergies and if i had fed him fish before, i would be rightly screwed now, lol!

Carb calculations are pretty easy. You convert to dry matter and then subtract from 100%. So if it has 35% protein, 10% fat and 8.5% fiber, then you divide each by 90 (because the food has 10% moisture). So you get 38, 11 and 9. Now subtract from 100 and you get 42% carbs.
So, see, even though Acana and Wellness both make weight loss formulas, the Acana one is lower in carbs. It's the better brand imo.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Yes, I clarified that I was considering Wellness CORE Reduced Fat. But I am open to trying other CORE formulas.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Minka said:


> Thats not what i read:


We sorted it out-- because the more recent post hadn't specified "reduced fat", I read it as the original aka "Wellness CORE" without any qualifiers such as Ocean or Reduced Fat which usually means it references the original. 

But my point was actually that Acana Wild Prairie DOES have pea fiber in it, contrary to your statement, so if someone were wanting to avoid pea fiber, then it wouldn't be any better choice than some of the Wellness line. 




Eenypup said:


> Ah, I see. So maybe grain free isn't necessary? I can check but I doubt she's on grain free at the shelter and nothing besides her weight seems out of the ordinary. Normal stools, nice coat, etc.
> 
> I was looking at Acana Light & Fit, which isn't grain free, but on top of the grains it also has peas and potatoes pretty close to the top of the ingredient list. 35% protein and 10% fat, but I don't really get how to do the carbs calculations?
> 
> And maybe I'm over thinking all of this, but I tend to do that!  Maybe just try a high protein relatively low fat and carb food and see how she does? It's not like I can't change if she's not doing well or not losing weight.


I highly doubt she's on grain free at the shelter. My thing about grain free is that on the whole, you're paying a premium for peas/lentils/chickpeas compared to rice/oatmeal/barley. Since the protein contents are often similar to the higher end grain-inclusive foods, means that grain-frees may actually have less meat protein sources then a grain-inclusive which doesn't have as many plant based protein sources. Some grain frees also tend to be very high in ash (mineral) content which may stress the kidneys over time. 
I prefer to find a manufacturer with a good reputation (as much as possible), good sources of ingredients with minimal ingredient splitting, a protein and fat content I like and something affordable and then use that money I saved to supplement with real meats. 
Doesn't make GF a bad choice, just that I haven't seen any real benefit for "Average Joe Dog"


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## Minka (Nov 29, 2011)

Shell said:


> We sorted it out-- because the more recent post hadn't specified "reduced fat", I read it as the original aka "Wellness CORE" without any qualifiers such as Ocean or Reduced Fat which usually means it references the original.


Hmm, yea, i responded before i saw that post, but i edited it right away, so im not sure why it didnt go through.. :/



> But my point was actually that Acana Wild Prairie DOES have pea fiber in it, contrary to your statement, so if someone were wanting to avoid pea fiber, then it wouldn't be any better choice than some of the Wellness line.


I also didnt see the pea fiber in the Acana, but i think thats because its so far down the list whereas in Wellness it's way up there.




> Since the protein contents are often similar to the higher end grain-inclusive foods, means that grain-frees may actually have less meat protein sources then a grain-inclusive which doesn't have as many plant based protein sources.


Ive never experienced that to be the case. Do you have any sources for that?


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Also, would trying to top with canned food be too tricky? I don't know if I trust myself to calculate calories correctly if I decide to top with canned food... I know the carb % of canned food will generally be lower which might help her, but I don't want to accidentally overfeed calorie wise and end up messing everything up!


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

Eenypup said:


> Also, would trying to top with canned food be too tricky? I don't know if I trust myself to calculate calories correctly if I decide to top with canned food... I know the carb % of canned food will generally be lower which might help her, but I don't want to accidentally overfeed calorie wise and end up messing everything up!


I top my dog's kibble with canned food every day. It's not hard at all. The can will tell you how many calories are in the whole can. Divide the amount of calories per can by how many ounces are in the can and you'll know how many calories are in an ounce. Subtract the amount of kibble that would make the same amount of calories.

For instance, I have a 13.2 ounce can of wet food that has 400 calories in it. Divide that by 13.2 and I get about 30 calories per ounce of wet food. If you were to feed an ounce a day you would then just minus 30 calories worth of kibble from the meal. Sounds complicated but super easy. I find that it's easiest when I make a note of how many calories are in a certain amount of my dog's food. That way I'm not always recalculating.

The wet food has really helped with my dog not feeling like she's starving. This is because she gets more wet food than she would dry food for the same amount of calories. Canned foods tend to have a lot less calories per ounce than kibble, allowing you to feed more.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

doggiepop,if you were referring your post to me he was to the vet for this issue. most certainly he was. They wanted him to eat Low weight ideal balance. They feel there food has been tried and true and back up there claims on Hills 100% touting they have never had a call back on there foods. I did not give my dog that---He has been back and they liked 18 pounds but would like 17 better. I can't seem to get there with my dog.


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Eenypup, I live in Pa in Lower Bucks county. I like Annamaet dog food I use the low fat. This is made in Pa. local. I trust it completely and where they get there food. The low fat grain free however is a 3 source protein. Chicken herring, and duck. Are the carbs high in this? He is only 18 pounds so he gets very little and I do use a heaping teaspoon of wet food from wellness on top.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Minka said:


> Unless its canned (and even then) any healthy oils that were in the fish are basically gone. Its a much better idea to simply add fish oils to the food.
> I personally wouldnt switch to a novel protein unless she already has sensitivities, but thats probably me just being paranoid because i have a cat with allergies and if i had fed him fish before, i would be rightly screwed now, lol!
> 
> Carb calculations are pretty easy. You convert to dry matter and then subtract from 100%. So if it has 35% protein, 10% fat and 8.5% fiber, then you divide each by 90 (because the food has 10% moisture). So you get 38, 11 and 9. Now subtract from 100 and you get 42% carbs.
> So, see, even though Acana and Wellness both make weight loss formulas, the Acana one is lower in carbs. It's the better brand imo.


I agree on holding back a few novel proteins, I've just never thought of fish as a novel protein since it is a secondary ingredient in a fair number of non-fish formula dry foods already. 

One thing I've noticed with the fish formulas is that they tend to be stinky. Which is good for using as training treats. If you're trying to limit total calorie intake, then you probably will end up doing most training using the dog's regular meals and the smellier fish kibbles seem to be a higher value then the chicken kibbles. I'll use sample bags of fish based kibble as training treats and even for already food motivated dogs, they are more interested generally.



> Ive never experienced that to be the case. Do you have any sources for that?]


What I mean is that if the protein and fat and calories/cup are basically the same but one food has 3-4 plant based protein sources and another food has 1-2 plant protein sources (or plants that are lower in protein) in the first say, 6-8 ingredients (which make up the bulk of the food), then the one with less plant protein has to have more animal protein in order to keep the same total protein content in the food. Unfortunately, since there aren't really any percentages listed of each ingredient and those with equal percentages can be listed in any order, adding a lot of legumes is a cheap way to boost the protein a bit and charge a lot more. It is also hard to figure true values for ingredients if you're not sure exactly how the ingredient is processed (before being figured into the ingredient order) 
I'm not saying there is always less meat content, just that it MAY have lower meat content then an equivalent grain-inclusive and even if the meat content is a bit higher, the price premium for GF is generally paying for peas/lentils/chickpeas/potatos rather than a whole lot more meat. 

For example: 
Earthborn Meadow Feast (Grain Free) is 26% protein, 15% fat, 5% fiber, 10% moisture
First 6 ingredients: Lamb Meal, Peas, Tapioca, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed Tocopherols), Pea Protein, Pea Fiber, Flaxseed

Professional Adult Dog Chicken & Barley Formula is 26% protein, 15% fat, 4% fiber, 10% moisture
First 6 ingredients: Chicken, chicken meal, cracked pearled barley, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), oatmeal

100g of cooked pearled barley has 2g of protein. 100g of cooked green peas has 5g of protein. 
Pea protein is protein of course, it has amino acids and vegans often use it for a protein supplement in place of whey so its quite healthy for people although I don't know how much that translates for dogs. 
Canola oil vs chicken fat as a main fat source.

Like I said, I think grain-free has its benefits for some dogs but I also think that they try to imply that a lack of grains somehow means a lot more meat. If a dog does well on a grain-inclusive formula with good protein and fat, I just can't see paying 25-35% more to avoid barley, rice and oatmeal


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

Benjismom said:


> Minka, if fat doesn't make them fat then how come all weight management foods are very low in fat? If it makes people fat I would assume it would be the same for dogs? I'm just sayin. The only problem is I think my dog feels hungly for not having enough fat is his tummy.


There are good fats and bad fats.
Fats from olive oil, coconut oil, fish and nuts are essential for having good hair and skin. The same applies for dogs. People are obsessed with 'low fat' but you really should be obsessed with 'low carb'.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

So if Acana is better and lower carb, and grain free probably isn't that important, I would theoretically want Acana Light & Fit over CORE RF. But I don't see the Light & Fit anywhere online or that it's available anywhere really...

And thanks for the info on topping with canned! I think I could probably figure it out, and it would be great for her to feel like she's getting more food!


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Well I just lost 17 pounds in 6 weeks and I was obsessed with BOTH. It is the only way--I did this on a well known physician approved program. Of course we all know there are good and bad fats. My DH had open heart surgery with clogged arteries in 3 of them. We were counseled by Nutrition experts who said you could take a bath in Olive oil and it would be good for you. I think we need to be cognizant of both in equal amounts. Fat clogs the arteries. In my house his diet has changed drastically. Fat clogged his arteries. I know dogs are different.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

Eenypup said:


> So if Acana is better and lower carb, and grain free probably isn't that important, I would theoretically want Acana Light & Fit over CORE RF. But I don't see the Light & Fit anywhere online or that it's available anywhere really...
> 
> And thanks for the info on topping with canned! I think I could probably figure it out, and it would be great for her to feel like she's getting more food!


You live in America? I'm pretty sure only the Acana Regionals and the Acana Singles lines are available in America. I could be wrong though but I remember someone telling me that on one of these forums.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Eenypup, I'm guessing you are torturing yourself with all the advice you have been given. Calories/fat/carbs/ blah blah blah. This commercial food, that commercial food, blah blah...One of your first responses was for a raw diet, of which I am in total agreement of, but of which you are not willing/able to do....and that is okay...at this point in my life...retired yet with four large dogs, I can't afford it. Which means I also can't afford feeding them way over-priced "designer" foods or so-called "medical" foods that vets love to hawk. What I can afford is a mid-level commercial food (what USED to be high level 30 years ago), but also buying cheap meats and fish and whatever else is on sale to add to my dogs' food...for two important reasons....one...it get's their gut used to a variety of foods so they DON'T get upset if something changes, and two...I believe they deserve to relish their meals with something different each time they eat.

Why am I telling you this? Why does this conversation spark my interest? Because I just recently got back a dog I bred five years ago....and my contract states that if that home can no longer keep the puppy...regardless of age...that dog comes back to me...the breeder. Well...that happened. I got back a five year old female that should have weighed 65 pounds, but at the time I got her, she was obese at 90 pounds. They gave me what remained of her food, which was crap food....kibbles and bits sort of thing....but I took it in order to "transition" her to what I was feeding. I feed a better commercial food than kibbles and bits sort of thing...but that is not all I feed them. Every week, with manager special meats I find at the market...I buy chicken, beef, pork and fish and make stews...and I even buy in bulk some canned food simply in order to give a new experience to every meal. I fed her LESS....I didn't concern myself with grain-free....didn't concern myself with fat/protein levels...I FED HER LESS. A lot less.

The first night I got this obese dog back, I had a chicken stew already made for my other dogs (simply...a whole chicken braised with carrots and celery for a couple of hours, with potatoes thrown in with the last 15 minutes). I gave her that stew with the food I got from her previous owners....she was so enthralled with that that in her slurping, a bunch of her dry kibble got thrown from the dish...she noticed that, but when she realized it was kibbles and bits thrown from her dish, she turned her nose away....unlike my other dogs who scarfed it up. So why was this obese dog turning her nose up at this cheap food? Because, I think, she knew there was something more tasty...over the weeks, because I knew this dog desperately needed to lose weight... I ended up throwing out the rest of the kibbles and bits outside for the ravens. I was giving her, compared to my normal weighted dogs, very little food, but she got all the "tasties" that I normally give my dogs...but with her, I always made sure there was more liquid or vegetables (to fill her up) than the other dogs.

Unfortunately, it was during this time that I found out one of my other dogs had cancer. So I had her who was being eaten by cancer for whom I tripled her food intake, and the new dog who was obese for whom severely reduced the AMOUNT of food....but simply gave her a tastier experience. After just four weeks during a trip to the vet for my cancer dog, this 90 lb obese dog came along for a weight check....She was 78 lbs....well on her way to her 65 lb target weight. Now...because I simply fed her a lot less food, I'm sure some people will cry foul that I was "starving" her....but a funny thing happened...when I got her, she was lethargic....after she one week of simply getting less food...a LOT less food, she actually became MORE energetic...she started playing with my other dogs, she actually started running around the yard....LESS food wasn't a bad thing.....losing the weight was what made her energy higher. 

By the way, I use a LOT of fish for my dogs..."fish days" are the absolute favorite, and I enjoy giving my dogs that experience. I could care less that it is "stinky" to some people. Also by the way...when you see "plant-based protein" just know that it typically means SOY. Of course it is all the rage these days that soy is "so wonderful" but do some research...whether we are talking about dogs or people, soy is a HORRIBLE form of protein. The big corporations would love for people to embrace soy because it is easy to produce and it is THE GMO product that chemical companies produce that want to use "round up" to avoid weeds, so they have genetically modified the soy plant to RESIST roundup....so heck....they soy you eat has been thoroughly doused with Round up. You won't see "soy" on ingredient lists...you will see "plant-based" protein...THAT IS SOY.

Do your research...but give your dog a mid-level commercial kibble without "plant-based protein" but for sure bolster the flavor with a once a week stew you make, or with some canned or frozen fish....you can do this easily without the angst of a full blown raw diet.


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## sisu (Dec 31, 2012)

Feed the dog a quality food that fits your budget. Avoid Innova and EVO as they are high calorie foods. Feed the amount that is appropriate for the ideal weight. If she seems to be hungry gradually reduce the amount being fed over 2-3 weeks not all at once. You can also add frozen green beans and/or shredded carrots as they will help the dog feel full with few calories. Feed 2 times per day approx.12 hours apart to avoid the feeling full, feeling empty roller coaster. It also help with maintaining a consistent blood sugar level. Giving the dog something healthy to chew may also help.

Exercise is essential. 2-3 times every day. Start with long walks. Progress to mixing walks with jogging. Try to keep the dog on grass or dirt to avoid joint injury. Play catch and Frisbee. Practice obedience exercises while inside. Sit, down, stay, heel. Set up an agility course at home. It can be done with things found around the house. Stacked bags of garden mulch was my pause table. An open end table can be a tunnel. A broom stick between cinder blocks or chair rails can be a jump. Learn freestyle dancing with the dog. Anything to keep busy and burn off calories. Let the dog be your guide. When interest is lost or the dog seems tired stop. It is great mental stimulation for the dog and a bonding experience for both of you. There is no better way to "learn thy dog".

It will take time. A lot of time. When my boy joined us he weighed 24 lbs. His normal weight should be 15-16 lbs. It took 6 months. Now, his food is adjusted up or down depending on rather he is starting to look a little chunky or if I can see too much waist and tuck up.

The point is not to make either of you miserable. Enjoy the journey!

Just a suggestion. Put your "Location" in your profile. At least the state if you are in the US. It helps others to have a general idea of resources available when making recommendations.


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## sisu (Dec 31, 2012)

Some quick calorie, protein/fat and cost research. When my overweight dog joined us I did not feed diet food. I fed less of a regular adult formula. Added green beans for a few weeks. Then, gradually eliminated the green beans.

15 years ago I fed Wellness Super 5 Mix for a couple of months. I found the dogs lacking in coat condition, so I moved on. If I were in your position and my formerly obese boy was joining us now I would be very tempted by the new Farmina Low Grain Chicken or grain free. I am not one to jump on the latest and greatest band wagon but Farmina sure looks good on paper. The calories, protein and fat are perfect for keeping a dieting dog healthy without being concerned about adequate protein/fat etc. If it weren't Farmina it would be Dr. Tim's. I have fed the grain free Kinesis and been very pleased. Dogs changed immediately from another brand that they were fed long term had no digestive upset. Nice coat condition. No yeasty ears. The dogs like it. Dr.Tim is one of the good guys of the dog food industry. He will correspond or talk with you personally about any problems your dog may have with the food. 

Wellness Core Reduced Fat GF - 360 kcal per cup
33% protein, 10% fat
$53.95 26 lb.
http://www.wellnesspetfood.com/product-details.aspx?pet=dog&pid=70&dm=grainfree#feeding-guidelines
http://www.chewy.com/dog/wellness-core-grain-free-reduced-fat/dp/30134

Farmina N&D Chicken & Ancestral Low Grain - 380 kcal per cup
30% protein, 18% fat
$46.99 26.4 lb.
http://usa.farmina.com/?q=content/product/chicken-ancestral-grain-recipe-adult
http://www.chewy.com/dog/farmina-natural-delicious-chicken/dp/55909

Farmina N&D Chicken GF - 408 kcal per cup
37% protein, 18% fat
$64.99 26.4 lb.
http://usa.farmina.com/?q=content/product/grain-free-chicken-recipe
http://www.chewy.com/dog/farmina-natural-delicious-chicken/dp/55913

Dr.Tim's Kinesis Grain Inclusive - 415 kcal per cup
26% protein, 16% fat
$41.99 30 lb.
$60.99 44 lb.
http://drtims.com/kinesis/
http://www.chewy.com/dog/dr-tims-kinesis-all-life-stages-dry/dp/37810

Dr. Tim's Kinesis GF - 415 kcal per cup
32% protein, 18% fat
$53.99 30 lb.
http://drtims.com/grain-free/
http://www.chewy.com/dog/dr-tims-kinesis-grain-free-formula/dp/37814


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