# Looking for a food



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Do you know of any grain free foods from a good company with 27% protein? I am feeding a food with 30% protein right now. I want to see if changing the protein will change my dogs ph and protein in their urine. It really was not that high at all, but I am curious if it is the protein causing it like my vet said. Which I know I know vets and protein..... 
I did see Pinnacle has 27% in two formulas, but they use canola oil. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

and what do you have against canola oil?


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Is the PH high or low?

People with more knowledge than I say to lower PH you raise the protein. But if you have protein in the urine then it may be a different story. If the PH is high - have you tried some cranberry extract or Solid Gold Berry Extract to lower it?


----------



## TRDmom (Mar 3, 2013)

Have you looked at Canidae (all life stages - chicken and rice)?

http://www.canidae.com/dogs/life-stages/dry/chicken-meal-rice

Its not totally grain-free, but take a quick look at the link above. There is a higher meat content, protein is 26%, and has been rated by the dog food advisor/analysis sites that tend to be more reliable at 4 stars (out of 5).

I feed three dogs (of various breeds) which total about 120 pounds and a 30-pound bag of food lasts for a month (and is about $45 with tax). All have good coats and regular bowel movements (not strong smelling either). For us, it has been a higher quality, cost effective food. I've looked a various foods, but this has been the best for me. I have seen much lower quality foods for twice the price!!


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

zhaor said:


> and what do you have against canola oil?


Gmo. Plus I don't think it gives as nice of a coat.


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> Is the PH high or low?
> 
> People with more knowledge than I say to lower PH you raise the protein. But if you have protein in the urine then it may be a different story. If the PH is high - have you tried some cranberry extract or Solid Gold Berry Extract to lower it?


It was at 8.5 with a range of 5.5-7.0. Cran caps protect the kidneys? Her protein was 3+ and neg. However her microalbumin was .2mg/dL.
Such confusing stuff.


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

TRDmom said:


> Have you looked at Canidae (all life stages - chicken and rice)?
> 
> http://www.canidae.com/dogs/life-stages/dry/chicken-meal-rice
> 
> ...


 I'm nervous about it still being produced in a Diamond facility. I know some of their foods are made on their new Ethos plant, but not all.
Hate to be so picky, but these dogs are my life.


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Check out Annaemet-- I had never heard of it (I am a long term Solid Gold fan-- the Bison blend-- I steer clear of beef and chicken if I can help it there is just too much in the way those meats are produced commercially)-- but they had a booth at the Dog show today it sounds pretty good-- they use brown rice same as Solid gold (I find many grain frees use too much filler for me)-- I think I will try out their Venison and brown rice blend-- its got a good ash level 7.3 % and well priced at $60/ 40 lbs (cheaper than many other 5 star foods and I need big bags with 3 large breed dogs).... Check them out-- I am also hearing more and more reccs on this brand from other Dog Forum-ers too....
They are out of Ohio, forgot name of the plant, but its not Diamond, and small, and has never had a recall, in 40 years....


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Does your dog have kidney issues? Is that your concern-- Kayla Nicole's wheaten has kidney issues and she did a great Thread(Jan 18) on ash levels in food pertaining to helping out her dog's kidney function.... (protein in urine is kidney issues?)....


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Check out Annaemet-- I had never heard of it (I am a long term Solid Gold fan-- the Bison blend-- I steer clear of beef and chicken if I can help it there is just too much in the way those meats are produced commercially)-- but they had a booth at the Dog show today it sounds pretty good-- they use brown rice same as Solid gold (I find many grain frees use too much filler for me)-- I think I will try out their Venison and brown rice blend-- its got a good ash level 7.3 % and well priced at $60/ 40 lbs (cheaper than many other 5 star foods and I need big bags with 3 large breed dogs).... Check them out-- I am also hearing more and more reccs on this brand from other Dog Forum-ers too....
> They are out of Ohio, forgot name of the plant, but its not Diamond, and small, and has never had a recall, in 40 years....



Annamaet is from Pennsylvania the plant is Ohio Pet Foods. Longstanding, highly reputable company with roots in sledding. People on the east coast know it well.


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> Gmo. Plus I don't think it gives as nice of a coat.


GMO? That is incorrect. Even if the canola was GMO the oil contains none of it. It is physically impossible. Where did you read Canola Oil has genetically modified material in it?

By the way, the Non-GMO Canola crop is larger than GMO crop.


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

I am feeding Annamaet grain free actually.  

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> GMO? That is incorrect. Even if the canola was GMO the oil contains none of it. It is physically impossible. Where did you read Canola Oil has genetically modified material in it?
> 
> By the way, the Non-GMO Canola crop is larger than GMO crop.


http://vanessaruns.com/2011/02/08/gmos-and-why-you-should-never-use-canola-oil/

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Does your dog have kidney issues? Is that your concern-- Kayla Nicole's wheaten has kidney issues and she did a great Thread(Jan 18) on ash levels in food pertaining to helping out her dog's kidney function.... (protein in urine is kidney issues?)....


No she does not have kidney issues, but I would like to keep it that way and I don't know in all honesty if the 30% is affecting her or not. It's so hard to say. Makes me want to do a u/a every month to check her values.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

dogloverforlife said:


> It was at 8.5 with a range of 5.5-7.0. Cran caps protect the kidneys? Her protein was 3+ and neg. However her microalbumin was .2mg/dL.
> Such confusing stuff.


This sounds like UTI to me. Bacteria setting up shop on the urinary tract walls causes high pH. Has a sterile urine sample been cultured? I wouldn't be looking to change the food just now.


----------



## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

dogloverforlife said:


> No she does not have kidney issues, but I would like to keep it that way and I don't know in all honesty if the 30% is affecting her or not. It's so hard to say. Makes me want to do a u/a every month to check her values.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If she's healthy, then you're pretty much over thinking it. Honestly, it's more about the quality of protein rather than being 30% or 27%. But really imo the best and easiest way to ensure kidney health is just to drink lots and lots of water (and pee frequently) to keep the urine more diluted.

As for pH, generally speaking, higher dietary protein means lower urinary pH. Cranberries also serve to lower pH.


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> I am feeding Annamaet grain free actually.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lower the protein. I work with people. Unless you are feed just raw, it is a good idea to lower the protein levels if your dog has kidney issues. Its just hard on their kidneys...


----------



## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

I live in Pa. I also feed Annamaet. Bumper1 is correct they are in Pa in Sellersville. I also feed home cooked for toppers. My dog is on grain free low fat Annamaet.


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> This sounds like UTI to me. Bacteria setting up shop on the urinary tract walls causes high pH. Has a sterile urine sample been cultured? I wouldn't be looking to change the food just now.


Yes it was sterile with a needle and ultrasound guided. She is not peeing any more frequently than normal. I do need to get her to drink more water. She's never been a big drinker. I add enough to her food that it floats.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

zhaor said:


> If she's healthy, then you're pretty much over thinking it. Honestly, it's more about the quality of protein rather than being 30% or 27%. But really imo the best and easiest way to ensure kidney health is just to drink lots and lots of water (and pee frequently) to keep the urine more diluted.
> 
> As for pH, generally speaking, higher dietary protein means lower urinary pH. Cranberries also serve to lower pH.


This is kinda what I figured I was doing. I think for the heck off it I will check her urine again in a month to see if maybe she had just been a little dehydrated that day. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Lower the protein. I work with people. Unless you are feed just raw, it is a good idea to lower the protein levels if your dog has kidney issues. Its just hard on their kidneys...


Do you know I'd any options that are grain free?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If you're open to freeze dried/dehydrated options, The Honest Kitchen has several grain free choices that are as low as 21% protein and Grandma Lucy's has choices at around 26% protein.


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Here's a link on an article about cranberries: http://www.ehow.com/facts_5641433_cranberry-urinary-tract-infection-dogs.html

If you have a Tractor Supply look at the 4Health brand of grain free foods - they have lower protein levels.

Here's an article and list of low protein dog foods: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/best-dog-foods/low-protein-dog-foods/


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> This is kinda what I figured I was doing. I think for the heck off it I will check her urine again in a month to see if maybe she had just been a little dehydrated that day.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


If urine isn't fresh from the bladder, the Ph will change very quickly. I read your link about Canola Oil and its incorrect.


----------



## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I personally do not believe the to much protein is hard on the kidneys bit...... I think that's another myth made up by idiots like Science Diet to make people buy their ridiculous "prescriptions"..... I don't believe that it's ever been proven. Lower ash being a must is more realistic but the real culprit for kidney problems being an issue in the first place is LACK OF WATER in the diet...... Not to much protein.... The lower you go in protein the higher you climb in carbohydrates which contributes to obesity and diabetes.... Not a good thing... 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> Gmo. Plus I don't think it gives as nice of a coat.


Here is the source of the misinformation:

"Meagan, about 29% of the rapeseed that canola oil is made from is GMO (Roundup-ready). The problem is, you don't know which one is in the dog food, unless it's certified GMO free. 

Oh and Hershey has found a new home? *sigh*

I'm adding this info I posted from the other forum:

That said, not all canola oil is genetically modified. It was originally created using standard hybridization. But of course, Monsanto had to get their paws into it, to infuse it with their roundup resistance technology. About 29% of the canola oil is made from Roundup ready genetic engineering. But there's no way to tell which one you're getting, since there are no requirements for labeling.

That's my main reason for not liking it, but also, it's really not as good of an oil as it was initially made out to be, particularly for dogs. If you can't have chicken fat in the food (which is actually a good fat) due to sensitivities, a better alternative is sunflower oil. It's the way it's processed. Although this article refers to olive oil, it's relevant in that it explains the difference:
Olive Oil vs. Canola Oil / Nutrition / Healthy Eating

And in an article at Mercola, Beware of Canola Oil

which brings up why I don't buy it for personal use, either:One problem with canola oil is that it has to be partially hydrogenated or refined before it is used commercially and consequently is a source of trans fatty acids; sometimes at very high levels.Another problem is that it is too unsaturated to be used exclusively in the diet; some of the undesirable effects caused by feeding canola can be rectified if the diet is made higher in saturated fatty acids"

Whenever someone quotes Joe Mercola, you know that person is not very informed.

1) Canola that is hydrogenated and partially saturated is for commercial frying. You can check with the company that makes your food but I would highly doubt this grade of Canola Oil is used. Besides, are trans fats an issue for dogs?

2) Even oil from GMO Canola plants will never test positive under the most stringent thresholds. Why? Because the oil is processed and filtered. What little of the protein is in the seed is gone once its ready for packaging.

3) It is true that Canola is largely unsaturated but who cares because it is not the only fat in dog food. Chicken Meal is 10% - 20% fat, dried egg is at least 50% fat, fish meal is 10 - 15%. Even if the food doesn't have another liquid fat added like chicken fat or fish oil, Canola isn't as big a part as you think just because its listed. I would doubt even in the most liberal uses Canola is more than 50% of the fat in the average food, generally much less.

4) Canola is used because it is well balanced and has a neutral taste.

This person specializes in not knowing the facts.


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> If urine isn't fresh from the bladder, the Ph will change very quickly. I read your link about Canola Oil and its incorrect.


It will be fresh. Read the above post. How's it going hershey123, monsters dad? 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Annamaet is from Pennsylvania the plant is Ohio Pet Foods. Longstanding, highly reputable company with roots in sledding. People on the east coast know it well.


According to Kit Brown the plant is in Lisbon Ohio, not Pennsylvania. Hence the name OHIO pet foods.


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

dogloverforlife said:


> According to Kit Brown the plant is in Lisbon Ohio, not Pennsylvania. Hence the name OHIO pet foods.


Yeah no kidding.....where does it say Ohio Pet Foods is located in PA? Annamaet is in PA and the plant is Ohio Pet Foods and yes located in Ohio.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I've looked at thousands of urines in my career as a medical biochemist. Animal protein tends to produce a lower pH. Humans using high protein diets often eat protein until they reach the point of ketoacidosis, which can be detected by dipsticks available at pharmacies, usually in the section with diabetic supplies. So rather than look at the amount of protein in the food, I would look to see if it is animal or plant proteins. Plant proteins are well known to raise pH.

However, given the combination of high protein, high pH, and a normal microalbumin (normal for canines is <2.5 mg/dL last time I looked)...I would also be thinking more about bacteria if I was worried about it at all in a dog without kidney disease and a breed without risk factors for kidney problems. On the other hand, since the sample was obtained by aspiration and was proven to be sterile, then that leaves out a UTI. 
So, all things considered I wouldn't worry about it. My dogs eat a raw diet which of course is very high in protein. I do not feed any plants, fruits, vegetables. I've never done UA's on my dogs but their blood levels of everything are perfectly normal, and even more normal than usual as they age. My 14 year old papillon has the same blood profile as she did when she was 5 years old. I haven't seen a study that proved a high protein diet leads to kidney disease in people wth normal kidneys. And I realize tha dogs are not humans, but there are far more studies on humans so it's really all we have to go with.

If you really want to monitor the urine, you can, by just buying dipsticks at the pharmacy or have your vet order a container of them for you. They usually come in cans of 100 sticks and they do expire. So if you choose to buy them be sure you are going to use them. Be sure to run a control occasionally to be sure the sticks are performing correctly (exposure to heat and moisture is a problem) and dispose of them at the expiration or when the controls are no longer producing appropriate results.


----------



## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

briteday said:


> I haven't seen a study that proved a high protein diet leads to kidney disease in people with normal kidneys. And I realize that dogs are not humans, but there are far more studies on humans so it's really all we have to go with.


Yea I didn't think there was or ever has been a study. People forget that dogs are a descended domestic carnivore and to say that what they were born to eat is hard on their kidneys is absurd to me..... :/ it just does not make sense.... People are blinded by incompetent science diet trained veterinarians out there and it severely angers me. No one ever wants to question the supposed "truth" and think about things logically... I question everything and I don't understand why no one else wouldn't want to. :/ that's just me... 




Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Zilla said:


> Yea I didn't think there was or ever has been a study. People forget that dogs are a descended domestic carnivore and to say that what they were born to eat is hard on their kidneys is absurd to me..... :/ it just does not make sense.... People are blinded by incompetent science diet trained veterinarians out there and it severely angers me. No one ever wants to question the supposed "truth" and think about things logically... I question everything and I don't understand why no one else wouldn't want to. :/ that's just me...
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I think the problem is there isn't a lot of info out there about dog nutrition. I went to one site, petmd, and it talks about dog nutrition and as you said it was a Vet with expert from Hills ... the first ingredient was wholesome grains! I also think people (and I also use to) believe that Vets know every aspect about dogs, cats and whatever other animal they treat. It was news to me when on this forum that it was said differently - the problem is people trust those who they think know about something. And remember brands like Purina, Hills and Iams have been selling pet foods for years and people grew up with those names ... "they have to be good if they've been around for that long".


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Not a lot of information? There is a $300 book you can buy with a huge amount of information on the amino acids, fatty acids, minerals and vitamins dogs need. Here is the old version of that book. http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309034965&page=44 Where the kibble companies and a lot of dog owners differ is how to provide those nutrients. I look for them in minimally processed foods where they don't care to do so and may find them in foods that aren't suitable for some dogs then mix in a mineral and vitamin complex to take care of any possible deficiencies.


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Kathyy said:


> Not a lot of information? There is a $300 book you can buy with a huge amount of information on the amino acids, fatty acids, minerals and vitamins dogs need. Here is the old version of that book. http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309034965&page=44 Where the kibble companies and a lot of dog owners differ is how to provide those nutrients. I look for them in minimally processed foods where they don't care to do so and may find them in foods that aren't suitable for some dogs then mix in a mineral and vitamin complex to take care of any possible deficiencies.


Most people don't want to read a textbook; I don't want to read a textbook or spend $300! If feeding precise foods for nutrition is something you're into that's great but 95% of the dog owners feed good enough to their dogs. What I was referring to is Google "Dog Nutrition" and have something pop up. Most of the Google stuff I have seen say to feed a dog about 20% protein, maybe a little more. People look up AAFCO and see what it is and the label on the dog food says "meets AAFCO requirements for ..." - "OK I can feed this to my dog". My sister loves her dog, she cooks for her dog - Chicken and rice with a little bit of kibbles and bits thrown in because her dog likes it. The people on this forum are not the average dog owner.

A Google search: https://www.google.com/search?sourc...&gs_l=hp..0.0l4.0.0.0.7090...........0.&pbx=1 If your gleaming for info you're not going to delve deeply and the crap you'll get (and this is true of any subject) will be something "has to be correct because I've seen it repeated". The Westminster Kennel show was sponsored by Purina which 11 of the last 12 Champions were fed Dog Chow - that's what people know. 

Honestly Kathyy, I respect what you know but I'm not into worrying about every aspect of my dog's food but I am about trying to give her good food at a reasonable cost. I read what others have said about certain foods and do whatever research that I can do on-line. I fed Orijen because apparently a lot of people said it was great, Zoey didn't do so well on it. So I went to other foods, Zoey has infections and with the help of people here I am trying Victor food (no grain or white potato) along with probiotics (ear) and cranberry extract (UTI). She's not eating really crap food like my other dog did but I didn't know better.


----------



## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

Look into Zignatures... It's grain/potatoe/chicken free, and they have a few different flavors. It's gaining popularity in my area (South Jersey) and I've heard great results, not only for dogs with allergies. Visit their website. Also, Grandma Mae's Country Naturals is a family owned company, based out of the East side, has a grain free all life stages kibble . Usually, if you email a company directly, or visit smaller feed shops, you can get a few small sample bags. I feed my dogs Acana and Orijen, but they have higher protien, but my dogs probably get more exercise than most. Finding the right kibble to feed your dogs is trial and error. I Definitely recommend finding a smaller feed store, other than stores like Petsmart or Petco, because they tend to have more holistic products.


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

For the record there have been some studies done on the effects of different levels of protein in a dog's diet and it's effects on the kidneys.

http://dogaware.com/health/kidneyprotein.html

Dogaware.com is also a pretty good place to research dog nutrition in general and to find current information on recommended diets for different illnesses.


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

SillyDogs said:


> Look into Zignatures... It's grain/potatoe/chicken free, and they have a few different flavors. It's gaining popularity in my area (South Jersey) and I've heard great results, not only for dogs with allergies. Visit their website. Also, Grandma Mae's Country Naturals is a family owned company, based out of the East side, has a grain free all life stages kibble . Usually, if you email a company directly, or visit smaller feed shops, you can get a few small sample bags. I feed my dogs Acana and Orijen, but they have higher protien, but my dogs probably get more exercise than most. Finding the right kibble to feed your dogs is trial and error. I Definitely recommend finding a smaller feed store, other than stores like Petsmart or Petco, because they tend to have more holistic products.


Thanks for that! The Vet at her last ear infection visit didn't believe it was an allergy related infection. Whatever it could have been was only in one ear this time. Based on some help from members here I am trying now to stay away from brewers rice and white potato just in case Zoey does have an issue with them.

I have fed her a variety of foods -Orijen, Pinnacle, 4Health and now Victor. As a puppy, I fed her Orijen as a puppy but Zoey had gas and her poop stunk so she went onto Pinnacle. IMO there wasn't much difference in the Pinnacle vs 4Health and the price for the 4Health is 1/2 of the Pinnacle. Because of her ear infection and the fact that 4Health has brewers rice I am switching to Victor. Victor is grain and white potato free and if Zoey likes it we'll see how she does on it. I know about the Petcos and Petsmarts but even if you go to a "dog food store" and I have 2 near me some of the foods aren't that holistic. I did look into Grandma Mae's but they only have chicken so I decided to try the 2 Victor foods and may try 2 of the Nutrisca foods to rotate flavors.

If the Victor or Nutrisca doesn't work out I'll look into Zignature.


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

What are the specs of the food you are feeding now?


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

For 4Health:


Ingredients: 
Chicken, chicken meal, cracked pearled barley, millet, brewers rice, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), dried plain beet pulp, natural chicken flavor, flaxseed, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, yucca schidigera extract, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, chondroitin sulfate, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid. 
Guaranteed Analysis: 
Crude Protein 26.0% (min.), Crude Fat 15.0% (min.), Crude Fiber 4.0% (max.), Moisture 10.0% (max.), Zinc 150 mg/kg (min.), Selenium 0.4 mg/kg (min.), Vitamin E 150 IU/kg (min.), Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.5% (min.), Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.4% (min.), Glucosamine* 300 mg/kg (min.), Chondroitin Sulfate* 100 mg/kg (min.), 

For Victor:
INGREDIENTS​:

​Beef Meal, Sweet Potato, Chicken Meal, Peas, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Pork Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Dried Egg Product, Flax Seed (Source of Omega 3 Fatty Acids), Potassium Chloride, Dried Kelp, Natural Chicken Flavor, Alfalfa Nutrient Concentrate, Montmorillonite, Salt, Vegetable & Fruit Pomace (Carrot, Peas, Tomato, Celery, Beet, Parsley, Lettuce, Watercress, Spinach, Cranberries, Blueberries), Pumpkin Seed, Blueberries, Apple, Spinach, Monosodium Phosphate, Yeast Extract, Dried Chicory Root, Yeast Culture, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Biotin, Riboavin Supplement (Source of Vitamin B2), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Ascorbic Acid, Folic Acidt, Minerals (Zinc Sulfate, Calcium Carbonate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Sulfate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Sulfate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Carbonate), L-Lysine, Selenium Yeast, Lecithin, Choline Chloride, Hydrolyzed Yeast, Dried Enterococcus Faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Product, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Product, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid (Preservatives), Rosemary Extract

Can't copy and paste the GA but: http://www.victorpet.com/#!grain-free-all-life-stages-dog/c156m


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> For 4Health:
> 
> 
> Ingredients:
> ...


Victor is a high ash, high phosphorous food. Forget anything with Beef & Bone Meal.

http://drtims.com/kinesis/

5.8% ash max, .71 phosp, .97 calcium


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Victor is a high ash, high phosphorous food. Forget anything with Beef & Bone Meal.
> 
> http://drtims.com/kinesis/
> 
> 5.8% ash max, .71 phosp, .97 calcium


I thought in previous posts you have said Victor is a good dog food - or is it just certain flavors in Victor you don't like?


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> I thought in previous posts you have said Victor is a good dog food - or is it just certain flavors in Victor you don't like?


It is fine but not for a dog that may have early signs of kidney trouble. It also has mineral clay which I would stay away from in this case.


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> It is fine but not for a dog that may have early signs of kidney trouble.


Do you care to elaborate on how you determined that my dog may have kidney problems? Her Vet mentioned that she may want to put her on a prescription diet to lower her PH - never said anything about kidney problems.


----------



## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

Did you look into Zignatures brand kibble?


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

SillyDogs said:


> Did you look into Zignatures brand kibble?


I did look at it online, didn't go to a store yet ... I have a 15 lb. bag of Victor I'm transitioning to at this point.


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

I think the OP should try SportMix. OP has lots of mouths to feed and hounds do well on it.


----------



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

SillyDogs said:


> Did you look into Zignatures brand kibble?


This is an odd company and odd formulas. Calls go right to voice mail. I don't see any expertise in this company at all other than marketing.


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> I think the OP should try SportMix. OP has lots of mouths to feed and hounds do well on it.


My male hounds are doing just fine with Dr. Tim's Momentum.
I've decided I will switch the two females, a border collie and a lab, that I am talking about in this thread to his kinesis formula. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> It is fine but not for a dog that may have early signs of kidney trouble. It also has mineral clay which I would stay away from in this case.


Bumper 1 I'm going to repeat myself because maybe you missed it and obviously you're still responding to this thread ...

Do you care to elaborate on how you determined that my dog may have kidney problems? Her Vet mentioned that she may want to put her on a prescription diet to lower her PH - never said anything about kidney problems.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Dog Person said:


> Bumper 1 I'm going to repeat myself because maybe you missed it and obviously you're still responding to this thread ...
> 
> Do you care to elaborate on how you determined that my dog may have kidney problems? Her Vet mentioned that she may want to put her on a prescription diet to lower her PH - never said anything about kidney problems.


It is something to discuss with your vet to be sure, but when Chester had a UTI and crystals in his urine, my vet specifically did a blood panel to check for any kidney problems. Once she'd checked that his kidneys were perfectly healthy, she gave me the go-ahead to continue feeding high protein, mostly raw. The urinary prescription diet is very low protein and very high carbs, so in his case, it wasn't going to be all that helpful. A little extra salt in it to encourage water drinking but I'm capable of using a salt shaker for that


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Shell said:


> It is something to discuss with your vet to be sure, but when Chester had a UTI and crystals in his urine, my vet specifically did a blood panel to check for any kidney problems. Once she'd checked that his kidneys were perfectly healthy, she gave me the go-ahead to continue feeding high protein, mostly raw. The urinary prescription diet is very low protein and very high carbs, so in his case, it wasn't going to be all that helpful. A little extra salt in it to encourage water drinking but I'm capable of using a salt shaker for that


Thanks Shell!

I did speak to her Vet about it and according to the Vet everything was OK with the last urinalysis - no, it wasn't a blood panel but they aren't calling for one either so they don't seemed to be too concerned at this point but I am if it continues to happen. After the 2 weeks on Clavamox the Vet said that her PH was down, there was no protein, blood or crystals in her urine. 

I asked the question because 1) If there is knowledge that someone has then get it out there; 2) One sentence blurbs are useless IMO and 3) Bumper1 seems to be a little controversial on almost all subjects food. 

Her Vet doesn't believe in high protein, raw or holistic medicine (cranberries and probiotics); maybe it's time for a new Vet or maybe they are OK and they've seen enough to know it isn't needed or doesn't work.

I will readily admit that other than reading the label on the dog food bag and kind of understanding the concepts of why, I really can't hold an intelligent conversation about the subject. So, I try to feed food to my dog food that is better then the food I fed to my last dog. People say high protein is good, the use of cranberries and probiotics work and I am willing to try them. I will probably never feed raw but only because it's something I'm not interested in and it is much easier to feed kibble and having 3 other people in the house. Having a dog that has issues has been a real experience for us, something quite frankly we weren't prepared for since our last dog had only one easily addressed issue. 

Anyway, thanks again!


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Dogperson, you might want to read dogaware.com. There is a lot of information on dog health and nutrition there with links to further reading for you. Most of the information there was published in Whole Dog Journal and other hard copy publications.

If you want a book in hand you might see if you can get Monica Segal's book K9Kitchen. She discusses feeding all types of food in that book.

There is no right answer, there is a lot of trying this and that to feeding dogs. I was amazed at how much better my dogs do on fresh food and will never go back to kibble. Others find their dogs are better on kibble than fresh food for whatever reason.


----------



## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Kathyy said:


> Dogperson, you might want to read dogaware.com. There is a lot of information on dog health and nutrition there with links to further reading for you. Most of the information there was published in Whole Dog Journal and other hard copy publications.
> 
> If you want a book in hand you might see if you can get Monica Segal's book K9Kitchen. She discusses feeding all types of food in that book.
> 
> There is no right answer, there is a lot of trying this and that to feeding dogs. I was amazed at how much better my dogs do on fresh food and will never go back to kibble. Others find their dogs are better on kibble than fresh food for whatever reason.


Thanks Kathyy!

I'll go on there and read the info.


----------



## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Well I ordered Dr. Tim's Kinesis. The ASH is good and the phosphorus is low. Now if only the online retailers will hopefully keep it in stock. 

Guaranteed analysis:
Crude protein: min. 26%
Crude fat: min. 16%
Crude fiber: max. 3%
Moisture: max. 10%
*Ash: max. 5.8%*
*Calcium: min. 0.97%
**Phosphorus: min. 0.71%*


----------

