# Hill Prescription diet Z/D



## stevenham (Oct 7, 2010)

So I have been feeding Scruffy(2yr JRT) Hills prescription diet z/d and fish oil for about 3 weeks now so I had to stop giving him treats. I can no longer train him as his primary motivator were nuked hot dogs. I can somewhat use his kibbles indoors for very short period, but it fails miserably outside. Is there something I can use for treats for training? The protein in his food are chicken liver and chicken. Can I at least feed him some chicken for treats? 

So far I am very displeased with this food. He's been eating a bit more but he poos MUCH less. He used to go twice a day, but now only once and sometimes has diarrhea. Its been 3 weeks but his poo is still not firm as before. I'm also sure that he is constipated most of the time as well. Are there better hypoallergenic foods with better ingredients that I can feed him? Is a hypoallergenic food even necessary? He's been gnawing at his paws a bit and according to the vet his skin is a bit pink.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Is your vet positive that your dog has a food allergy? After 3 weeks of being on this incredibly expensive food, and he's still having skin issues, I'd be skeptical if this is a food allergy. Have you done allergy testing yet? 

Z/D is supposed to be impossible for animals to be allergic to because all the proteins have been hydrolyzed, which is why I'd be quite skeptical of a food allergy if your dog has been eating this food for 3 weeks.
I do not personally feel that a hypoallergenic food is necessary. You could do an elimination diet to determine what the food allergy is, and then feed a food that does not contain the allergen.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

It's quite possible your dog is reacting to the grains in the food? I'd try a grain free food and see if that clears up your pup's itchy paws


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

I would try anything other than that food.

Its very possible your dog is allergic to grains. Get him a grain free food and use boiled chicken for treats.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Stevenham,

Food trials for dogs with food allergies are always recommended for AT LEAST 6 to 8 weeks. 3 weeks is definitely not enough time to evaluate the effectiveness of your food trial. I know this is a long time and you're going to have people recommend all sorts of other foods, but, if you really do want to find out if your dog has food allergies you should either stick with this diet or consult with your veterinarian about trying a novel protein diet (like duck, venisin, etc...). Some dogs do respond wonderfully to grain free diets, but, grains are NOT in the top list of most common food allergies in dogs. 

I strongly encourage you to not just go out on your own and start trying a bunch of random stuff without consulting your vet. If you happen to "try" somethin for a week that he actually is allergic to and then switch off, his signs will continue for at least a couple weeks and it will appear as if the food trial isn't working when in fact it very well could have been - your veterinairan will think the trial failed and his path to helping your dog overcome this will get really sidetracked (when it doesn't need to be).


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Our dog has been on z/d for a couple of years now. It's the only food we've tried (and we've tried many) that keeps her consistently free of bloody, runny poop, vomiting, lethargy, etc. Thank you, Mr V, for speaking up on this. Too many people are quick to shoot down prescription foods without knowing how they work and why they can be very useful tools for some dogs. They do take time to work. It took our dog about 8-10 weeks to stabilize on z/d. And honestly? I'm thankful she's not pooping multiple times a day any more, which she was doing with the rich foods she was on for 2.5 years before the z/d. And I'm thankful that I'm not taking her into the vet every 10-12 weeks for $500 worth of treatment because she got sick again on whatever food we tried next. 

Hills does make a hypoallergenic treat you can try which won't mess up the z/d trial. http://www.hillspet.com/products/pd-canine-hypoallergenic-treats-treats.html

Don't give your dog any other treats or meats - you have to be 100% strict during the trial to know whether or not it's working. I know it makes training difficult, but not impossible. Find other things that motivate your dog, like a favorite toy, or going for a walk or play. For now, it's important to focus on the dog's health.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

I still stand by my answer - there are FAR better hypoallergenic foods available with novel proteins (Instinct, Natural Balance come to mind). I will agree that you do need to give it time and be patient to see if the food is working or not.

I also don't believe your vet is going to be the best resource when it comes to your pet's nutritional needs - not when they continue to sell the garbage they do in their clinics. I'm not saying don't listen to your vet, but don't be afraid to question and do your own research as well.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I don't disagree at all that there are good foods out there for allergies (I've tried many of them). We disagree on the value of using a tool like z/d to diagnose the problem. Z/D takes the issue of protein as the source of the problem out of the equation by making the protein molecules so small they no longer are an irritant. If the dog improves, then there's a clue that protein might be the issue. The dog is then put back on the original food - if symptoms come back, you have an answer. Then you can move on to trying good single source protein foods - same process. But the trial with the z/d has to progress cleanly for 10-12 weeks to know if protein is the issue. 

We still have our dog on it because we've done all the food trials and z/d is the only food we've found after 2.5+ years of trials that she can tolerate long-term. Doesn't mean I don't visit the food aisle at the feed store every visit to see if there's anything new or check out new foods online all the time. If I could find a good food she could handle that didn't cost me $185/month I would be thrilled, believe me! But for now z/d is literally saving her life. Sure beats starving, that's for sure. 

i just get tired of all the ranting about greedy vets out to make money on prescription foods. Does it happen? I'm sure it does. I'm also guessing that more often than not vets are just trying to do the best they can for their patients. Now if you want to generalize about politicians on the other hand.....


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

winniec777, have you looked into cooking for your dog? Then you could use a novel protein and novel carb with nothing else. I am sure you went right through the simple kibbles and are now checking out the new ones with interesting proteins but those all have many extra ingredients. Moncia Segal has a protocol written out in Optimal Nutrition to follow, perhaps there is something in one of her newsletters? Here is one newsletter describing her journey with her own little dog.
http://monicasegal.com/newsletters/2008-05NL.php

Artie is supposed to avoid fish and grain and it isn't easy to find anything with that combination other than low protein NB so I have been checking ingredient lists lately.

For treats you can just use the kibble or even slice the canned and bake it to make a crunchy cookie. I bet being super careful about total food is important so reduce meals if you treat.

Before trying a new protein the system needs to be completely calmed down or an allergy is likely to form to the new protein. Stick it out for the prescribed length of time and then evaluate whether it helped or not. If it didn't help there are a whole lot of other stuff for dogs to be allergic besides food. My JRT was clearly allergic to grass. He needed Benedryl at home but during a camping trip he was clear of itchy pink skin.

There is no such thing as a hypoallergic food or product. Allergies can develop to any substance. Beef and corn was common back when kibble was first developed, dogs developed reactions so the kibble companies came up with chicken and rice. Now dogs are reacting to that and kibble companies are calling lamb and rice hypoallergic food. Recently interesting novel proteins have been introduced but the manufacturers are leaving in all sorts of ingredients that are also in old kibble formulas so allergies might be to one of those items which will also knock the novel protein out of the running for a sucessful food for that dog.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Loki Love said:


> I also don't believe your vet is going to be the best resource when it comes to your pet's nutritional needs - not when they continue to sell the garbage they do in their clinics. I'm not saying don't listen to your vet, but don't be afraid to question and do your own research as well.


This topic isn't about nutritional needs. This is about the client and doctor working together to find the cause of this dog's allergies. Introducing a ton of other stuff right now (and cutting the doc out of any discussion on the food trial) completely ruins any time spent on the currrent food trial. Let's assume you're right and say that there are better (nutritional-wise) foods out there. OK, no big deal. But this food certainly isn't going to be 'bad' for the dog, especially for 6-8 weeks. Personally, If i were itching like crazy I would think that a little time spent on a lower quality (as some may assume it is) food would be totally worth it to find out what the real issue is. Otherwise you're looking at a lifetime of itchyness, ear infections, etc...

But, I'm not a licensed veterinarian and this isn't my patient. So, you can do what you want.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Kathyy - I have thought about going the cooking route but feel too uneducated about it to make sure she would be getting the right nutrients. Thanks for the link - I'll check it out. I'm guessing we'll be going this route at some point.

Your point about all the other ingredients in these foods is bang on. Even if I can find something that is novel/single source, there are usually so many other things packed into the food that I'm unsure about. I'm betting we made mistakes early on that ruled out some of these foods. And even after all the trials I still have no idea which ingredient(s) actually bother my dog. It's a very frustrating process, to be sure, with lots of misinformation out there.

To the OP - sorry to hijack your thread. I hope you find something that works soon for your pup. Let us know how it goes.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Mr. V said:


> This topic isn't about nutritional needs. This is about the client and doctor working together to find the cause of this dog's allergies. Introducing a ton of other stuff right now (and cutting the doc out of any discussion on the food trial) completely ruins any time spent on the currrent food trial. Let's assume you're right and say that there are better (nutritional-wise) foods out there. OK, no big deal. But this food certainly isn't going to be 'bad' for the dog, especially for 6-8 weeks. Personally, If i were itching like crazy I would think that a little time spent on a lower quality (as some may assume it is) food would be totally worth it to find out what the real issue is. Otherwise you're looking at a lifetime of itchyness, ear infections, etc...
> 
> But, I'm not a licensed veterinarian and this isn't my patient. So, you can do what you want.


No where did I say to introduce 'a ton of other stuff'. Nor did I say to cut the vet out of any discussion of the food trial.


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## stevenham (Oct 7, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. 
I don't plan on stopping the z/d diet. I'm going to keep him on it at least until the trial is over, but I do plan on switching to something else when its over. 
I do have the Hills treats, but they aren't too great to use for training. 
We've done a skin scrapping and a fungi test about 2 months ago and both were negative. The vet said that Scruffy might have a mild case of atopy. I haven't done an allergy test so we are starting with the food trial to try and rule out food allergies. He was also on Clavamox for 2 weeks as well as benadryl pills. The vet said I should give him benadryl twice a day for 2 months. He hasn't gotten any better yet, but if the itching were to stop, how am I suppose to know if its because of the food or if the meds are just suppressing it? Also, shouldn't the benadryl be doing something by now? 

I'm just still concerned that he's having diarrhea and constipation even after 3 weeks. It only took him a few days to adjust to his previous food.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

My vet told me it can take a long time for the antihistimine to build up and start working. I went through the whole list the vet gave me for 2 months each and none helped Sassy one bit. One solitary pill helped my JRT's grass allergy and right or wrong I just gave it to him as needed.

If things calm down then you cut out one or the other of the things you were doing. The newsletter I posted tells how Ms. Segal did it.

Not sure about the stool issue. That stuff has 5% fiber. Perhaps that is too much fiber and if he drinks enough water there is soft poop and if he doesn't the poop is hard? Wild guess here. Could ask the vet if water can be added to it. Maybe buy a can of w/d so you can make a 'yummy' gravy with a bit of the stuff that is completely within the diet.


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## stevenham (Oct 7, 2010)

I actually think he might be getting worse. He has begun scratching/rubbing his eyes a bit. He has also been rubbing his face into the carpet. Its not a lot of scratching/rubbing to the point I'm concerned, but he has never done it before. His stool is always soft or watery (diarrhea). I'm pretty sure he's constipated because he will stand in his pooing position for a few minutes trying to push something out. Should I just contact the vet?

All that cleaning effort you made is just amazing to me. If dust is what is causing Scruffy's allergies, then my house is one of the worst environments for him =/ I am very lazy when it gets to cleaning.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

stevenham said:


> I actually think he might be getting worse. He has begun scratching/rubbing his eyes a bit. He has also been rubbing his face into the carpet. Its not a lot of scratching/rubbing to the point I'm concerned, but he has never done it before. His stool is always soft or watery (diarrhea). I'm pretty sure he's constipated because he will stand in his pooing position for a few minutes trying to push something out. Should I just contact the vet?
> 
> All that cleaning effort you made is just amazing to me. If dust is what is causing Scruffy's allergies, then my house is one of the worst environments for him =/ I am very lazy when it gets to cleaning.


There is never any harm in contacting your vet - I certainly would in this case.


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## Kawgirl (Feb 1, 2009)

stevenham said:


> I actually think he might be getting worse. He has begun scratching/rubbing his eyes a bit. He has also been rubbing his face into the carpet. Its not a lot of scratching/rubbing to the point I'm concerned, but he has never done it before. His stool is always soft or watery (diarrhea). I'm pretty sure he's constipated because he will stand in his pooing position for a few minutes trying to push something out. Should I just contact the vet?
> 
> All that cleaning effort you made is just amazing to me. If dust is what is causing Scruffy's allergies, then my house is one of the worst environments for him =/ I am very lazy when it gets to cleaning.


Please keep us posted. I am dealing with the same problems with my little poodle. I am using the ZD _ULTRA_ sensitive but with powdered cellulose and corn starch listed as some of the beginning ingredients, I am not thrilled with feeding it.

Hydroxyzine helped for a while, then we Temaril-P for a while. Our vet said we need to be off all meds for at least 4 weeks in order for allergy testing to work correctly. We started the food testing while using the meds. We are starting this week with no meds and I think it is going to be a long month.

BTW we were feeding her Fromms and Before Gain along with some cooked chicken up until her scratching began. (We tried duck formula's too.) I hope it is not a chicken allergy, but that might be a lot easier than some of the possible things in or around my my home. ( Wool, dust, bird dander, oak leaves....)


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