# I'm going insane.



## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

This is going to be a bit of a babble. 

My dog has no recall. He knows what come means. He comes when he feels like it. We had a big fight (contest of wills more like) back in January where I basically said "If you don't come when you're called, you don't eat." He stayed outside in the snow with no food for 2 days before he finally gave in and came to me. And his recall got better for about a month. I'd go outside, call him, he'd come, and sometimes I would give him part of his dinner and let him stay outside, and sometimes I would bring him inside and give him part of his dinner and a high value treat. It was working well. And then it just wasn't. Like one day he just got bored with it. So I tried bumping up the reward, using treats every time instead of his dinner. But I feel almost like he's training me. "Oh if I ignore the dinner, she'll come back with something better." But I'm not sure dogs actually think like that. But like today, he was in the yard, and it started hailing. Like actually hailing.... So I take a chicken leg outside, and he just stands there, getting soaking wet and pelted by bee-bee sized hail, and only a complete moron would *want* to stay outside in that crap, but he refused to come in. So I went back inside, determined to ignore him, but I can't make my dog stay outside in the hail!! So I went back out with a slice of Swiss cheese. And he stood there for a bit, then trotted over to me like it was some sort of privilege he was extending me! Gah!!! I feel like I'm rewarding him by upping the treats when he doesn't come, but I feel like a complete "insert expletive here" if I leave him outside. And I swear to god that dog is laughing at me! *SCREAMS* I can't walking him because he lunges at cars, outweighs me by 20+ pounds, and has almost dragged me into traffic twice. He failed he obedience class, by acting worse every class instead of improving, until the trainer had to separate me from the rest of the class, and then I just spent the entire time trying to get him to stop barking at the other dogs. He doesn't even sit if he doesn't feel like it! I've tried every treat in the book, read every article I can get my hands on, and I'm so past done right now, I just want to throw him outside and leave him there. 

I thought my other dog, an abuse case doxiepin, was going to be hard, but he's so eager to please it's crazy. This monster doesn't care about pleasing me. He doesn't care about treats. He doesn't play with humans. I can't find a single motivator or bribe that will convince him to do anything. :frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty:


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

There ARE things that he likes, I think you're pretty emotional because he's driving you crazy, there are things EVERY dog likes, or he'd just lay around like a bump on a log all the time. I think you should consider several things, take a hard look at what DOES motivate your dog and figure out how to use it to your advantage. You control access to those things and you can use them to ask for behaviors you want to see. When I first got Lucas there was very little he liked, but there WERE things, often they were things I didn't like him doing. Still, learned to use them even though I didn't like them until I was reinforcing to him just because I was the one with access to what he did like. Once I was reinforcing I could start phasing out some of the things I hated but he liked and using other reinforcers. Does that make sense?

Lucas had a short list:

Walks (even though he had atrocious leash manners)
car rides
rough play
sniffing things
running
peeing on bushes
problem solving (normally doing things I didn't like-such as how to open the drip drawer to the grill so he could lick charcoal)
being around the other dogs

He didn't care one lick about what I might have wanted.

That's about it. 

I'd try some NIFL with this dog. 

You also need to consider reading some books, not just articles. I'd start with When Pigs Fly. This sounds like a Pigs Fly kind of dog. 

You might also want to consider a trainer who will work with just you and your dog (Positive Reinforcement trainer) because group classes are just too exciting and distracting for a dog like this.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I had a dog a lot like that.

Tinker was a Carolina Dog mix (pariah dog from the south) that I got from a local shelter. We have no way of knowing what her life was like before she came to us, but she was highly intelligent and VERY independent and strong-willed. It's likely those qualities served her very well when she didn't have a home, but they made her particularly challenging in our home.

Regretfully, this was at the time I was a follower of the Dog Whisperer methods, which likely only made things worse. I was harsh with her, trying to get her to "submit to my dominance" at the very time I probably should have been working to gain her trust and create a bond between us. As a result, we were in a constant power struggle the entire time until she had to be put down due to cancer. The harder I pushed to gain ground, the harder she resisted. It wasn't fun and I didn't get to enjoy her for the amazing dog she was and I doubt she felt like she had a loving family, either, with me constantly at her.

Looking back, I wish we'd had a behaviorist look at her or a positive trainer. We did consult trainers, but these were the old school "choke chain and prong collar" types. I'd get control with a prong collar, only to have her jump a 6 foot fence and think it was a fun game to have me chasing her around the neighborhood. (It probably was, looking back, the most fun she'd had in a while!) I think, if I'd had at least a positive trainer or even better, a good dog behaviorist supporting me, I might have been able to see past this me vs. her mentality that I had, been able to create a bond, and gain trust and work with her. I feel like I learned all the things that would have made our lives together better...too late.

It sounds like you have that chance now and I hope you're able to seize it!


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

I bought the book. lol When Pigs Fly... That's about the thought I've been having these past weeks... Cthulhu will come when pigs fly. Actually it was usually, If pigs fly, Cthulhu will chase them and still ignore me, LOL. At this point, I'll try just about anything. So I'll go read it and pray it helps. Thanks


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I love the name Cthulu, too.  It's good to see another geek roaming about!


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

What type of dog is he??

I know great Pyr are known stubborn dogs...
Biggest challenges is the recall command and you will almost never make a Pyr do anything it does not want especially if the Pyr does not trust you. Down is also one of the hard command too.

With Roman, I always tell him to come and something good always happen.
Like rubs, treats, walks, coming inside etc. Never associating come with anything negative.
That is how many other Pyr owners recommended as training due to breed's independent trait.

He does good on his commands now at 9 month old but am dreading a relapse of his teenage years.
We will see... so far so good though....

To out weigh you by 20lb... wow how heavy is your dog???


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

jfinner1 said:


> I bought the book. lol When Pigs Fly... That's about the thought I've been having these past weeks... Cthulhu will come when pigs fly. Actually it was usually, If pigs fly, Cthulhu will chase them and still ignore me, LOL. At this point, I'll try just about anything. So I'll go read it and pray it helps. Thanks


I think I may be interested in that book based upon that title alone... lol.
Love the title.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Cthulu.. is a great Pyr too???
I highly recommend reading the great Pyr forum and Google search great Pyr stories (Ontario based GPC) one about Frankie and a bear story etc.

Great Pyr is very different than other dogs.
They are truly more cat-like.
Compare Roman to Timothy, day & night difference.

My Pyr has an outdoor run attached to the house, deck / porch area.
The porch is covered so for rain & snow he shelters there if he wants.
He also loves the rain & (hail a week ago) outside... and don't even shelter at the porch.
Dunno why... hubby calls him crazy dog when he does that getting all drenched and stuff.

I never use his dinner for training though... only treats.
His dry is always left out all day for him... he self regulates.
His dinner homemade... usually after his walk and after family has eaten.
He loves coming indoor after the night out (nocturnal now) to be with me to enjoy his scramble eggs or omelette.

Even if he gets fed all the time... he still look forward to my treats.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Yes, Cthulhu is a Great Pyr. And I keep wanting to put him on DogShaming with my cat. Khepri will hold a sign saying "I walk nicely on a leash, come when I'm called, and play fetch"; Cthulhu will hold a sign that says "I Don't". My cat has been 100 times easier to train... 

All three of my meat eaters are raw fed, so I can't leave his food out all day. Plus my other dog has food issues, so any food left out is a bad idea, lol.

Cthulhu only seems interested in food if he's hungry, which is why I was trying to use his dinner as food. He also has a LOT of stomach problems, so I have to be careful what I give him. Every store bought treat I've tried he either hated (as in spit it out, lol) or he loved but it gave him diarrhea, even in small quantities. Hotdogs, dehydrated chicken and liver worked for a bit, but then he got bored with them. String cheese upset his stomach. He favorite thing in the whole world is baby swiss cheese, like from the deli, but that's fairly expensive, and I'm not sure it's good for him, lol. I've probably been one here half a dozen times looking for treat ideas, and I try every single thing people recommend (assuming I can find it), and I still only have 3 low value treats, and one high value but outside of my price range treat... Not exactly a good start, lol.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

I think that when you are at the back door calling him in, he senses your anxiety. Or else he just does not want to come in. Do you ever just call him to you, give a treat, and then leave him outside?


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

jfinner1 said:


> Yes, Cthulhu is a Great Pyr. And I keep wanting to put him on DogShaming with my cat. Khepri will hold a sign saying "I walk nicely on a leash, come when I'm called, and play fetch"; Cthulhu will hold a sign that says "I Don't". My cat has been 100 times easier to train...
> 
> All three of my meat eaters are raw fed, so I can't leave his food out all day. Plus my other dog has food issues, so any food left out is a bad idea, lol.
> 
> Cthulhu only seems interested in food if he's hungry, which is why I was trying to use his dinner as food. He also has a LOT of stomach problems, so I have to be careful what I give him. Every store bought treat I've tried he either hated (as in spit it out, lol) or he loved but it gave him diarrhea, even in small quantities. Hotdogs, dehydrated chicken and liver worked for a bit, but then he got bored with them. String cheese upset his stomach. He favorite thing in the whole world is baby swiss cheese, like from the deli, but that's fairly expensive, and I'm not sure it's good for him, lol. I've probably been one here half a dozen times looking for treat ideas, and I try every single thing people recommend (assuming I can find it), and I still only have 3 low value treats, and one high value but outside of my price range treat... Not exactly a good start, lol.


 Have you tried Bacon- even the perservative free stuff-- do you play with him at all? My dog would spit out treats and only worked for a special squeaky have you tried that (helps if you play with your dog/ that is something they enjoy to begin with).... Just a few ideas....


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I would be wondering why your dog doesn't like to come to you? Do you spend fun, quality time with him every day? Just playing or cuddling and having fun? How do you train? Reward based training or with corrections? When you train, is he having fun? Or is he just tolerating it? Are your training sessions too long (i.e. longer than 5 minutes in one go)? Do you ever get frustrated and annoyed during your training sessions? When he comes do you, do you ever get angry at him for something he did before you called him? Do you call him over to do things he doesn't like, like bathing, clipping claws, brushing, getting in the car, etc ?

If your dog knows what come means, but he doesn't want to come, then you have a motivation issue. He's not being stubborn, he's giving you important feedback that coming to you isn't that great. So you need to look at why coming to you isn't great.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

I've never used a correction on Cthulhu, though I can't say I've never gotten frustrated with him. Lately, it seems I spend more time frustrated then not. I am a firm believer that this dog doesn't like me. He's really my fiance's dog, but my fiance is at work 10+ hours a day, and I'm not. As his behavior has gotten worse, so has our interaction... It used to be that I would wake up in the morning and take him for a walk. We would hang out in the house together, doing short 2-5 minutes training sessions throughout the day. In the afternoon we would go for another walk, and usually spend some time running around the park down the street (no dogs to play with, but usually a few kids, and he LOVES kids). Then he would get dinner (whatever was left, since I used to use his dinner during training) and then he would go in the back yard for about an hour until my fiance came home. Then Gavin would bring Cthulhu inside, and Cthulhu would spend most of the rest of the evening sleeping at Gavin's feet. One more trip outside before I went to bed, and then he was kenneled for the night.

Now, I can't walk him. He's literally almost killed or sent one or both of us to the hospital twice now. I actually blame this on Gavin. He decided to start walking him in the morning before he left for work. Next thing I know, Cthulhu is lunging at cars and pulling my arm off. Ends up, Gavin wasn't working with loose leash walking, and I didn't realize it until it was a serious problem. I let him read an article about how lunging against a collar can damage the throat and cause the windpipe to collapse, slowly suffocating the dog. Gavin doesn't walk him anymore. But I can't walk him either. So I wake up and put him in the yard. And that tends to be where our interaction ends lately. I go outside and try to play with him, but he just ignores me. He doesn't fetch, he won't ever chase things that I throw. For example, I'll toss a ball, or a stick, and he'll look at me like I'm nuts, and go lay down and chew on something. I've even tried the "chase game" which he LOVES to play with Gavin. I'll chase him, and he'll run away, but when I turn to have him chase me, he just stops and lays down. So I just feel like I'm chasing him around, and I don't think he actually enjoys it. He loves to play tug with the other dog; he'll grab one of his toys, wag it in front of Otto's face, and off they'll go. But if I try to play tug with him, he just drops the toy. I can't get him in the house, so most days he just stays in the yard until Gavin comes home.

Even when we had our short training sessions, he never seems very interested. That's why I tried to keep them so short. But now he just avoids me, so there really aren't any training sessions. How can there be when he is on the other side of the yard? 

Every time I call him and he actually comes, it a "big flippin' deal". He gets the whole "Yea! Good boy! Have a whole slice of cheese, let me scratch your favorite spot on your cheek! WooHoo!" I try to make it as exciting as possible. He never seems that excited. The only thing that I call him for that he doesn't like is to go back in the house. But that's kinda unavoidable from what I can tell? I mean, I have to call him to get him to come inside, and he NEVER wants to come inside, but I don't know any way around it. I don't always make him come inside when I call. I try to go out multiple times during the day with cheese, call him, treat if he comes, and then leave him outside, or join him in the backyard. He may not like to play with me, but I at least go sit out there with him as long as the weather is nice. I try to follow the same "leaving the dog park recall" rules, so I call, he comes, he has to let me touch his collar, and then treats, praise, and go play some more.

I hope that info helps. Let me know if I forgot to answer something, or something needs clarified.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

For the walking, for now, I'd recommend a halti or gentle leader or one of those harnesses that has the ring in front. That way, when he lunges, it pulls him back to you. This might help make walking him less painful for both of you. You can continue to work on loose leash walking otherwise, but at least this way you can get him exercise to help with the other issues.

It sounds like you were on your way to a good relationship with him and then some things kind of headed south, but if you're like me, even getting a grip on ONE of the problems will help you have more patience with the others. The more time you spend with him, the more he will begin to trust you and build a relationship with you. The more you avoid him, the less inclined he'll be to obey you. It's kind of like the two feed on each other. More avoidance = Him giving you more reasons to avoid him. More interaction = Him giving you more reasons to want to interact with him.

Good luck! I know this is frustrating. I'd never had a dog before Tinker that didn't really seem to care about me and for me, it was really hard to stay engaged when she seemed like she could take me or leave me. Like any relationship, it's hard to keep putting in the effort when you feel like it's not returned. For some reason, my gut says that being able to walk him again and get that under control will lead to good things in the other areas you're struggling with him in.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

I can really agree with that packetsmom. Our walks seemed to be the one thing that we both really enjoyed. Without those, I feel like we have no connection... It's very frustrating. I've never met a dog like Cthulhu... We're heading to the pet store for a groom on Saturday; I'll check out the different harnesses while I'm there. My only concern with the front clip harnesses is that when Cthulhu starts to lunge at things, he will end up doing the turn around and shake his head thing, like he's trying to pull out of his collar. I worry that the harness will be easier to slip out of. Anyone have any advice or opinions on that?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

My Carolina dog was a real puller and I used a halti on her. She didn't particularly like it and would try to rub it off on the ground, but if I kept her distracted by walking, she did fine and it STOPPED the pulling entirely while I worked on training her to walk on a loose leash. I have also heard good things about the ones with the ring on the front, but I'm not sure how great they are with the great big dogs. I would assume that if it is sized right it should be no easier to slip out of than any other harness. You may also want to look into the kind of head collars that clip on to a regular collar, as a backup.

Sadly, we were just starting to really make progress on that when she had to be PTS with osteosarcoma.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

If Cthulhu is crazy pulling on the leash, I wouldn't do the head collar, head collars are meant for slow, steady pressure put on by the dog and best for dogs that have issues like, oh, you want to break eye contact with other dogs, or things the dog is nervous about. No pull harness is what Lucas wears, I'd be shocked if he could get out of it. Unlike a flat collar a harness should be snug.

What kind of loose leash walking methods were you using? May be we can suggest another method, and that coupled with the no pull whatever instead of a flat collar can get you guys back out walking again.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

jfinner1 said:


> Yes, Cthulhu is a Great Pyr. And I keep wanting to put him on DogShaming with my cat. Khepri will hold a sign saying "I walk nicely on a leash, come when I'm called, and play fetch"; Cthulhu will hold a sign that says "I Don't". My cat has been 100 times easier to train...
> 
> All three of my meat eaters are raw fed, so I can't leave his food out all day. Plus my other dog has food issues, so any food left out is a bad idea, lol.
> 
> Cthulhu only seems interested in food if he's hungry, which is why I was trying to use his dinner as food. He also has a LOT of stomach problems, so I have to be careful what I give him. Every store bought treat I've tried he either hated (as in spit it out, lol) or he loved but it gave him diarrhea, even in small quantities. Hotdogs, dehydrated chicken and liver worked for a bit, but then he got bored with them. String cheese upset his stomach. He favorite thing in the whole world is baby swiss cheese, like from the deli, but that's fairly expensive, and I'm not sure it's good for him, lol. I've probably been one here half a dozen times looking for treat ideas, and I try every single thing people recommend (assuming I can find it), and I still only have 3 low value treats, and one high value but outside of my price range treat... Not exactly a good start, lol.


Yah... Pyr can "forget" hunger... and they are a known breed to do that especially while on their job.
"Stubbornness" is a breed trait. Google, wiki, AKC, GPC... they all note that in the breed.

I have a cat as well...
And that cat can "talk" seriously.
" MeeooOut" = out for her.
She says yes clear as a bell.

I taught Roman how to ring the bell but once... then the next day Pepper (cat) starts to use the bell too to be let out.
Then they kinda repeat that action to each other & show each other they know how to use it... so no other reinforcements needed for that trick.
So yah... my cat is actually smarter than Roman... but by no means is Roman not smart.
In fact, compared to my old dog Timothy... Roman's manage to grasp commands much better than Timothy.

Roman is also master manipulator...
He can strategically maneuver and try to outthink me.
Eg. I was at the top of the steps barring him from going down... after staying at my side trying to "go down" for 5-10 mins... he went towards the red sofa he knows he is not supposed to get on...perked my interest but I still held position till he started to mock chew the suede pillow on it
.. that is when he "tricked" me into getting up and leaving my post.

No.. Great Pyr really isn't like other dogs.
To think so will be making a big mistake... 
Just Google Great Pyrenees and read the owners stories to relate.
These dogs have a thousands of years old developed brains for independent thinking...
That is why they can make that call and decision that save and lead their flock to safety during a fire.

They may be stubborn... but make no mistake on their intelligence.
Its a breed trait... a well documented trait even found in the old dictionaries and encyclopedia.
That is why we Pyr owners have to have that pyrpatience to go along that stubborn trait and also beat them at stubbornness.

I love love Pyr.

P.S. I had Roman since Oct 2012 when he is but 11weeks old. Now 6 plus months later he is a monster 9 months old.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Ok, I'll describe the before and now on our loose leash walking. See if anyone has any advice, or things I could /should try differently.  

Then (AKA when things were going well):
When we were walking, the clip on his leash needed to be hanging straight down (6 foot leash). If he started to pull, I would stop. Usually he would turn around, look at me, and either back up, or start walking toward me. I would give him a "good", and start walking again. If he didn't stop pulling, I would start to walk backwards. If just stopping didn't work, walking backwards almost always did, to the same result. If for some reason this didn't work either (fixated on a squirrel or something) I would turn completely around, say "Nope, this way," and walk in the opposite direction. He also got treats every few seconds that he walked nicely, really close together at first, but I think we were at about every 45 seconds to a minute before things started to go wrong. Also, if I saw something I knew he would fixate on, like another dog, we would stop, back into the closest driveway, I'd put him in a sit, treat in hand, body block the dog or whatever, and ask for "Focus" (most people use "Watch me"). This was our weakest point. Sometimes he would give me focus and I'd keep popping treats in his mouth and praising. Sometimes, he wouldn't, and he'd start lunging at the dog and barking like nuts, in which case we would walk away. I noticed he was better with little dogs then big dogs. And I think that about sums it up...

Now:
He starts pulling right out of the gate. Stopping doesn't work, backing up sometimes does, but not for any length of time. I actually haven't been able to even get out of the driveway in weeks. If he sees a dog, and I try the previous method, he literally bowls me over, knocks my legs out. If he sees a car, I better find something to hold on to. Last time I tried to actually walk him, he decided to go after a blue pickup truck. All I could do was grab onto a telephone pole, and pray. He was halfway in the street, flipping out, trying to get out of his collar, and we were only two houses away from our house. It's that bad...

Oh, and for clarity's sake, Cthulhu weighs about 105-110lbs. I weigh 93lbs...


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Ohhh.. heavier than Roman.

Try reinforcing his "sit".
We also be the tree while walking... but when we stop, we usually tell him to sit.
Now... even without command, he will sit whenever we stop.

One of Roman's fav. treat is raw deer meat.
We feed him raw occasionally... he is not solely on raw because my vet is worried about salmonella ecoli etc.
So only really fresh kill and certain types of meat.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

To me it sounds like you need to take him to a real, in person trainer. You can't have a dog that large that doesn't listen. Has he been to any kind of obedience classes?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Pyrs are LGDs bred to think on their own without the help of their master. Perhaps you should read up on pyrs before calling your dog "dumb" & "unwilling to learn" they arent bred to take direction fron strangers & have a thick, double coat that protects them against the elements ... like hail. I also dont usually recomend this but pyrs actually like being outside dogs, just give them a good dog house & they are happy.

edit: read your post again & it seems that you know nothing about LGD's, perhaps you should visit some pyr rescue sites because IME rescue sites have the best, tell-it-like-it-is info on their breed. 

Most LGD's are developed in harsh regions where food is scarce, therefore they evolved to be able to exsist on little or "bad" food. They are a "eat a little here & there" type of dog, they arent a type to eat 2 squares a day like other dogs. Training should have been started (if possible) when this dog was small. 

I should know, I had an anatolian shepherd for 7 years, he never even came up to the house, he ate, slept & lived with his herd of goats. Is she a pure bred pyr? do you have any pics? I'd like to see her ... bet she's pretty 

If you were in Texas I would offer to take her, I actually have goats & a horse she could guard & I just lost my old LGD.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LGDs can actually be perfectly decent house pets in the right home and I've never had a problem with one refusing to eat twice a day, BUT the remark about being independent and hard headed is right on. I wouldn't advice IGNORING the issue, but you need to change how you're approaching this dog and thinking of him. He's going to be less than inclined to give two craps about what you want. You're going to have to add management (in healthy doses) to how you do this and always make it worth the dog's time to listen. Since that hasn't been the case for a while, it's going to take longer. Use a long line, prepare to reel the dog in or go get it. T hen treat the stuffing out of the dog. 

And work on bonding.

DO NOT leave the dog outside alone. LGD that are working and living with livestock are fine - their herd is their family/social structure - but they're still dogs and a pyr totally alone is no better than any other dog totally alone.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

He has been to obedience class, though a group one. We honestly can't afford a private trainer. I thought I had mentioned that in my first post... Maybe not. He failed the class, the trainer didn't know how to deal with him, and it was an exasperating mess for both of us. 

DogDragoness, I'm not sure where you're coming from. I never called him dumb, or unwilling to learn. In fact, I'm much more likely to say that he's too smart for his own good. He gets bored fast, I can't keep him interested, , and he's not easily motivated to do something that he doesn't want to, but he's not dumb. And I really have read a lot about the breed. I read a lot about Pyrs before we got him, and yeah, I wasn't completely prepared for the extent of his size, strong will, and independence, but I wasn't completely in the dark either.

BUT To give you the benefit of the doubt instead of just being defensive, I would like to know what part of my post led you to believe that I know nothing about LGDs. For example, you are right and I did not know that Pyrs could ignore hunger like that. Oh, and Cthulhu is a rescue; he was a year old when we got him. I started training basically the day we brought him home, but I didn't have him though puppy-hood. 

Here's a picture. It's not the greatest, since it was taken with my camera phone, but it's the best one I can find right now, lol.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

The context of your post led me to believe that you werent familiar with LGDs, given your comments on his unwillingness to obey. I actually discourage LGD ownership in the city, I dont think its in their best interest IMHO.

Im sorry if I was offensive, I just get kind of passionate about LGDs, having our anatolian really gave me a new respect for LGDs & they have become one of my favorite breeds.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> LGDs can actually be perfectly decent house pets in the right home and I've never had a problem with one refusing to eat twice a day, BUT the remark about being independent and hard headed is right on. I wouldn't advice IGNORING the issue, but you need to change how you're approaching this dog and thinking of him. He's going to be less than inclined to give two craps about what you want. You're going to have to add management (in healthy doses) to how you do this and always make it worth the dog's time to listen. Since that hasn't been the case for a while, it's going to take longer. Use a long line, prepare to reel the dog in or go get it. T hen treat the stuffing out of the dog.
> 
> And work on bonding.
> 
> DO NOT leave the dog outside alone. LGD that are working and living with livestock are fine - their herd is their family/social structure - but they're still dogs and a pyr totally alone is no better than any other dog totally alone.


I find bonding to be SUPER important when it comes to intelligent, independent dogs. If they don't know you, as in have some kind of bond with you, then they are very hard to get to listen. I'd probably also recommend NILIF and, if you can manage it, hand feeding. The dog needs to learn that good things come from you and that following your commands leads to even more good things.

I've found that with dogs that don't trust much, that it is also helpful to try to catch them doing something right, as often as possible. Even if it's not the specific thing you're working on or that big of a deal, catch them doing something you like and then make a huge deal out of it, with praise and treats (if that motivates them) and play. It can take time and patience, but I find this really changes the relationship.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Oh...and he TOTALLY looks so cuddly! 

I had a neighbor who had a Great Pyrennes. That dog looked so beautiful laying down in their front yard, with a gentle breeze billowing his thick coat. I always admired him.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

jfinner1 said:


> He has been to obedience class, though a group one. We honestly can't afford a private trainer. I thought I had mentioned that in my first post... Maybe not. He failed the class, the trainer didn't know how to deal with him, and it was an exasperating mess for both of us.
> 
> DogDragoness, I'm not sure where you're coming from. I never called him dumb, or unwilling to learn. In fact, I'm much more likely to say that he's too smart for his own good. He gets bored fast, I can't keep him interested, , and he's not easily motivated to do something that he doesn't want to, but he's not dumb. And I really have read a lot about the breed. I read a lot about Pyrs before we got him, and yeah, I wasn't completely prepared for the extent of his size, strong will, and independence, but I wasn't completely in the dark either.
> 
> ...


Omg... what a cutie!!!
Don't give up on him... and also most trainers aren't Pyr compatible else they would not have put Pyr as 50something place for a breed to be easily trained. = proof of breed stubbornness.

Everyone who says bonding... that is great advise.
I only joined this forum less than a month ago...
I got the head start of Roman from Pyr specific forums.... so please refer back to them.

With Rescues you'll need extra patience than the already hard to do pyrpatience.
Also like others mentioned... Pyrrescues and GPC can probably help with troubleshooting.

While I am lucky Roman is food motivated (plus he lives for my cooking)...
If your Pyr is not food motivated try play or if Pyr is too easily aroused... try calm bonding times, give massages and rubs.
Also with bad mouthing issues... don't give the Pyr the idea that you are afraid of the mouth... try exploring and mock check his teeth as a dentist would... he may feel uncomfortable enough to lay off mouthing (no one likes a dentist). Show no fear... works with Roman at least.

Loose leash and heeling proper walking takes time.
Even Roman relapse occasionally but just be consistent.
Once they mature they will settle into the habit.

With Roman... I had a prong type collar but being stubborn Pyr... he would rather hurt himself struggling than be in that collar.
So I had to show him a regular collar & also the prong.. as if telling him in words regular collar you walk nice then no prong...
He walked nice after.
I think with that action I gained his trust.

Gaining trust is very important with dogs / Pyr alike. But with a Pyr when he/ she trusted you to make that decision to be best for it... its when training becomes a breeze. 

Trust for a Pyr is almost everything.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I find bonding to be SUPER important when it comes to intelligent, independent dogs. If they don't know you, as in have some kind of bond with you, then they are very hard to get to listen. I'd probably also recommend NILIF and, if you can manage it, hand feeding. The dog needs to learn that good things come from you and that following your commands leads to even more good things.
> 
> I've found that with dogs that don't trust much, that it is also helpful to try to catch them doing something right, as often as possible. Even if it's not the specific thing you're working on or that big of a deal, catch them doing something you like and then make a huge deal out of it, with praise and treats (if that motivates them) and play. It can take time and patience, but I find this really changes the relationship.


Yes and yes!!!!

NILIF... also a motto with Pyr specific forums. Great advise.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Omg... what a cutie!!!
> Don't give up on him... and also most trainers aren't Pyr compatible else they would not have put Pyr as 50something place for a breed to be easily trained. = proof of breed stubbornness.


Plenty of breeds, besides Great Pyrenees, are intelligent, independent, or "stubborn." (I don't necessarily like that word since I don't think it's really them trying to be a pain.) GP are really not a completely different species of dog and the same techniques that work with other LGD's generally work well with them as well. While there are good trainers and bad trainers, I don't think that just because you have a certain breed of dog that means that it is suddenly impossible to find a decent trainer. I know we all like to think our breed is unique and special, but there is a limit to it, particularly when it becomes counter-productive or limits our expectations of what we can do with our dogs or what we expect of ourselves as their owners.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Plenty of breeds, besides Great Pyrenees, are intelligent, independent, or "stubborn." (I don't necessarily like that word since I don't think it's really them trying to be a pain.) GP are really not a completely different species of dog and the same techniques that work with other LGD's generally work well with them as well. While there are good trainers and bad trainers, I don't think that just because you have a certain breed of dog that means that it is suddenly impossible to find a decent trainer. I know we all like to think our breed is unique and special, but there is a limit to it, particularly when it becomes counter-productive or limits our expectations of what we can do with our dogs or what we expect of ourselves as their owners.


I agree overall, but I do absolutely believe you have to adjust your expectations depending on breed. Breed traits and breed traits for a reason. Trying to make a husky off leash reliable is an exercise in frustration, that can be avoided by recognizing it as a breed trait and MANAGING the tendency. Just like trying to get a beagle not to scent track, or a small terrier to get along with your pet mice. The same applies for a Pyrs tendency to cover ground and not come when called. That's the way they work and were bred to work - pyrs off leash are called Disa-Pyrs by the community for that reason: they're meant to be covering a LOT of ground, and they ain't coming back because you called them. 

Absolutely, training methods are training methods, and letting a breed tell you what your individual is capable of is foolishness, but at some point the answer is to stop trying to make the dog what you think it should be, and deal with the dog you HAVE. Some of that means accepting that your dog may not be the right dog for x, y, or z, and slapping a long line on the dog for play time, rather than driving you and the dog nuts trying to make it come when its called, when genetically (behaviorally, or because of past experiences) it just ain't gonna happen.

(THAT said, pyrs are among the easier dogs out there to own and train, as far as LGDs go. Overall. It's just... coming when called, not so much )


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

My main issue is by dismissing most trainers as not "Great Pyrenees compatible." Breed does play a part in how you handle a dog or some expectations, but it doesn't mean that every breed has to have a different trainer or that you throw away everything that applies to other dogs entirely because you have a specific breed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> My main issue is by dismissing most trainers as not "Great Pyrenees compatible." Breed does play a part in how you handle a dog or some expectations, but it doesn't mean that every breed has to have a different trainer or that you throw away everything that applies to other dogs entirely because you have a specific breed.


That I agree with, completely. 

And, honestly, pyrs aren't even particularly difficult to own dogs, as far as LGD go. They have their challenges (as breeds do), but those are mostly a tendency toward same sex dog aggression, food aggression (like they're often fighting with siblings by 4 or 5 weeks old) being REALLY loud, digging and, well, a total disinterest in coming when you call/roaming off. Beyond that? Meh. 

I also agree with your absolute hatred of the word stubborn, at least in this context.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

While I normally dislike head collars for lunging dogs due to the risk of neck injury, I think the Newtrix head collar is better than the other options. It works on a different premise and by attaching at the back of the head (base of the skill near the neck), it doesn't seem to have the neck injury risk that the ones attaching at the muzzle have. I have not used it myself but I have seen it in use on a few dogs.

For when you let your dog out in the yard, have you considered a drag line or long rope attached to a body harness? Not a tie-out, just something that tails along with him and for you to grab and reel him in.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

To me, "stubborn" implies intention, as if the dog would otherwise be perfectly capable of obeying, but is choosing not to simply to be difficult. I think, in the case of many intelligent independent breeds, there may be a couple of things going on, but neither are just to make our lives harder. For one, if they're not bonded with you, they don't yet know you well enough to trust that your the right person to follow. This same distrust would be very useful if a stranger was trying to tell the dog to do something you didn't want it to do. Another factor is that some dogs are bred to work without much human intervention and to make their own decisions. For those dogs, to me, calling them stubborn is similar to being irritated when a border collie tries to herd everything or a terrier wants to chase rodents. It's not that the collie is running in circles just to be annoying, so I don't think a LGD being slow to trust and more independent is them being stubborn.

However, it really is a matter of choice of words, but sometimes, changing the words we use about people or animals changes how we feel about their behavior.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Plenty of breeds, besides Great Pyrenees, are intelligent, independent, or "stubborn." (I don't necessarily like that word since I don't think it's really them trying to be a pain.) GP are really not a completely different species of dog and the same techniques that work with other LGD's generally work well with them as well. While there are good trainers and bad trainers, I don't think that just because you have a certain breed of dog that means that it is suddenly impossible to find a decent trainer. I know we all like to think our breed is unique and special, but there is a limit to it, particularly when it becomes counter-productive or limits our expectations of what we can do with our dogs or what we expect of ourselves as their owners.


No... you may have misunderstood what I said.
Again unless you know and have experience with working with the breed... like even a vet... may have given that same dosage of anesthesia you would a same weight dog... that mistake could kill a Pyr.
They only eat the same amount as a retriever... not a st. Bernard
Same with trainers... even for the norm. reg. Pet store trainers... how many has worked on a farm with a Pyr???

Maybe in Alaska... where most people have open lands but the majority of people dwell in cities and burbs.
Pyr is by no means that common.

So via breed knowledge comparison even, I would not trust anyone who don't have that breed experience to do that job of teaching my Pyr.
Same with trusting a vet who is unfamiliar with Pyr dealings... that and you have to remind that vet that Pyr s are sensitive to anesthesia.

Would you hire just anyone to be your surgeon???
Why specialty is important... = specific knowledge, the more detailed the better???

That is what I meant.
Else in our world dogs will just be dogs... not breed specific even.

P.S. Again... its not us Pyr owners who state Pyr to be "stubborn" and they are.
Again.. this "stubborn" word is found in wikipedia, AKC breed trait, encyclopedia describtion on Pyr.
That "word- stubborn" is not going to change whether the owners like it or not.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

If a trainer has worked with LGD's, they'll be fine with a Great Pyrenees. I would argue the same is true for a vet. I worked for a farm vet in HS who treated everything from cows and horses to chihuahuas and also a GP or two and several other breeds.

All breeds have their quirks, not just GP's, but even that being the case, treating them as if they are a different species...is a bit much.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Pyrs are actually pretty common depending on what area of the country you are in. I've lived in TX and OK and they are the breed of choice on farms for a stock guard. Everyone either has a pyr or an anatolian. When I worked in the shelter, we usually had 2-3 pyrs in at a time. I've also had several neighbors with pyrs and see them at the park quite often. Not lab common, but not rare.

I would try to find another trainer, if it was me. It was probably just a case of wrong trainer for the dog. Any way you could save up for a private consultation? It is really just such a liability to have a dog that size that is out of control. I wouldn't write off training classes because one trainer couldn't help.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

It could also have just been a novice or even a bad trainer. It does happen, unfortunately.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> If a trainer has worked with LGD's, they'll be fine with a Great Pyrenees. I would argue the same is true for a vet. I worked for a farm vet in HS who treated everything from cows and horses to chihuahuas and also a GP or two and several other breeds.
> 
> All breeds have their quirks, not just GP's, but even that being the case, treating them as if they are a different species...is a bit much.


Yes, if a vet or trainer have worked with LGD may see some similarities... yes.
Its like saying even the general practice doctor can deliver a baby in a pinch if the circumstance called for it.

But does not mean every one should prefer it that way.

Already there are dog owners who may be pro Victoria s and CM haters... prefer one way to a next.
What makes me or you think that any LGD trainer will do???
What happens if that LGD trainer is pro one way that I think will not fit my dogs training???
KWIM???

Before anyone jumps into that water in that beginning...
Would be safer to find out "how deep" is that water... and are you that great of that swimmer to handle it.
That is all... logic.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

This is more similar to how any parent thinks that their child is exceptional and that every rule for them is different and, frankly, it gets just as annoying over time.

Great Pyrenees are a great breed and they have their quirks, but so does any other breed. If we start insisting that trainers and vets get some kind of special certification for each breed of dog...well, that starts getting pretty silly in a hurry. In addition, as has already been mentioned, GP's aren't really that rare of a breed, so it's not that unusual for trainers or vets to have at least had some exposure to them. Of course you should pick the vet or trainer that fits best with your own style of training or dog ownership, but to say that this one breed is just that exceptional that they require a whole new set of tools?

Now that isn't logical.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Op...

Go to the breed specific sites for trainer recommendations.
That way... at least you get someone who knows the breed and hopefully, hopefully..
Won't be making the mistake of giving a bad training because they don't know and have the experiences of working with the breed.

I think even in the job world... people still trust that word "resume" and "work experiences".

Add: If I am paying any kind of $$$ I would be wiser to spend it the right way... get that someone who "knows"... with tons of experiences with my needs = knowledge of ???.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

packetsmom said:


> This is more similar to how any parent thinks that their child is exceptional and that every rule for them is different and, frankly, it gets just as annoying over time.
> 
> Great Pyrenees are a great breed and they have their quirks, but so does any other breed. If we start insisting that trainers and vets get some kind of special certification for each breed of dog...well, that starts getting pretty silly in a hurry.


One of my friends has a Great Pyr that has been taking training classes at a location I recommended to them. The dog is doing very well and the owner likes it very much. The trainer owns Great Pyrs. But guess what? The same basic training techniques are the same as what she uses for the pit bulls that I know trained with her and why I recommended her. Her experience with LGDs is beneficial, but a good trainer with experience with a wide variety of dogs of different breeds and different personalities would likely serve just as well. 

Great Pyrs aren't that rare here, some live in the city and some live on farms, but most people I know have at least met one around town I'd say.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Pyrs are actually pretty common depending on what area of the country you are in. I've lived in TX and OK and they are the breed of choice on farms for a stock guard. Everyone either has a pyr or an anatolian. When I worked in the shelter, we usually had 2-3 pyrs in at a time. I've also had several neighbors with pyrs and see them at the park quite often. Not lab common, but not rare.


Yep, we have Pyrs EVERYWHERE. Like littering craigslist 'fifty dollars a pure bred pup from working parents' common. They are possibly MORE common than labs (but not more common than pit mixes). They're just extremely common dogs about here. If you have any livestock at all, you probably have one. If you don't have livestock, you still probably know someone who has one, have had one yourself, or see them around a lot. It's one of the reasons my assumption of Thud's mix involves pyr - the other giant breeds are not common but Pyrs? Dime a dozen.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Good for you guys so long it is common for you...
Not that common where I live though.

Still resume is how people get the job.
Common experience with Pyr great.
Case closed.

But if not... get someone with that "common Pyr" experiences.

The more common the Pyr is, the superior the knowledge = Pyr common experienced. Great.

No Pyr experience.. don't ever hire.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

hueyeats said:


> Good for you guys so long it is common for you...
> Not that common where I live though.
> 
> Still resume is how people get the job.
> ...



You're missing the point, entirely.

Pyrs, common or not, are not magical special breeds who have a set of rules for them. They're dogs. Just dogs. They're no different than someone who can train a husky, a scent or sight hound, or any one of a million different breeds. Pyrs have a few breed traits, sure, but so does any other breed. Dog psychology is still dog psychology. Any half-way decent trainer can train a pyr.

And before you say it: Yup. Had one. One of the EASIER dogs I've owned, actually.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

You know... I am not that trainer so desperate for a job in hard economy.

I could be that potential client..
If Roman relapse bad.

Just saying from a potential client's point of view.
If I won't hire a shoemaker to build me my house...
Why should I even consider anyone without my breed specific knowledge to train my dog???
Or worse... too lazy to get to know my breed and lump all breeds together.. lazy right???
(Now... if that shoemaker gained that specific knowledge about building that house and already built his own as research... mine will be no guineapig house that jack built... now we talking...)

That ain't gonna happen.
When and if I were to need to hire anyone... they better have money back guarantees
.. else I'd happily take them to court.

My money, my breed, my way.
Its my business right?? 
And it reads... no prior experiences.. need not apply.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Money back guarantees...for dog training? You do realize that most dog trainers actually train the owners on how to work with their dogs and it's then up to the owners to do the actual work...right? The closest thing I know of are training programs that let you retake group classes for free if you feel you and your dog need more remedial work.

I guess it is a lucky thing that your breed is not that rare if you are going to specify that anyone dealing with your dog must have previous experience with that exact breed...if you had a rare breed, that might be tough to find.

So...for those of us who have dogs of dubious origins...where would that leave us? Should all mutt owners get a genetic test before getting a vet or trainer? What if the trainer has experience with one or two of the breeds in the mix, but not all of them? Are they then disqualified?

I've had a lot of crazy at work today...but I think I've almost passed my limit, however you are definitely entitled to your opinions and good on you for doing what you feel is best for your dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Money back guarantees...for dog training? You do realize that most dog trainers actually train the owners on how to work with their dogs and it's then up to the owners to do the actual work...right? The closest thing I know of are training programs that let you retake group classes for free if you feel you and your dog need more remedial work.


There are some places that offer this kind of guarantee - they require you send your dog to them and you get them back trained after 8 weeks or so.

They are definitely not positive trainers, and most in my experience rely pretty heavily on shock collars.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

One of the breeds I'm considering... there is only one in the entire state. lol


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think I will look for a trainer and vet with a split personality or two for Sam (no offense to those suffering from such a condition). That way, I might be able to find a vet or trainer for each breed that might be in him...all in one.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> There are some places that offer this kind of guarantee - they require you send your dog to them and you get them back trained after 8 weeks or so.
> 
> They are definitely not positive trainers, and most in my experience rely pretty heavily on shock collars.


Ditto. 

Money back "guarantee" for working with a living thinking creature? Nope. Retake a class, sure, I know a few places that allow a retake for more practice. I also know training clubs with unlimited yearly membership which is useful to many people and you can get your money's worth easily.

But in order to really truly guarantee anything, a trainer would have to either A) be able to control the owner of the dog 100% since the owner is really the one doing the training or B) control the dog 100% which all too often means harsh methods that shut down the dog so he returns to his owner appearing to be trained but in reality is just too afraid to make any waves



hueyeats said:


> Just saying from a potential client's point of view.
> If I won't hire a shoemaker to build me my house...
> Why should I even consider anyone without my breed specific knowledge to train my dog???
> Or worse... too lazy to get to know my breed and lump all breeds together.. lazy right???
> (Now... if that shoemaker gained that specific knowledge about building that house and already built his own as research... mine will be no guineapig house that jack built... now we talking...)


Poor analogy. The difference between a shoe and a house is in no way even a good comparison to a Great Pyr and any other breed.
A better (simplified) analogy would be, would you hire a person who has built a 3 bedroom house and a 5 bedroom house to build a 4 bedroom house? Sure- the same principals apply and only minor planning adjustments and different materials calculations would be required.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

jfinner1 said:


> He has been to obedience class, though a group one. We honestly can't afford a private trainer. I thought I had mentioned that in my first post... Maybe not. He failed the class, the trainer didn't know how to deal with him, and it was an exasperating mess for both of us. ,.......
> ]


Did the trainer in the group class know and have that experience of dealing with a Pyr???
You are not alone in your Pyr failing a "general training" class... in fact on the Pyr threads on E G C and Pyr forums... I read many others whose Pyr also failed at training. Again... Pyr don't rank 50 something for trainable breeds... there are harder breeds to train of course but fact is their ranking is not at the top... so probably deterred most dog owners as a 'good to own' dog. 

≠==========================

Hence why I answered what is the "question most people asked you about your dog" thread..."what kind of dog is that???" Never fails every time we are out on walks, hikes and especially pet stores.
Yah... Texas have tons of Pyr... so does Canada...
But even this forum Pyr is not as common as a bully breed or gsd.

Now... even GSD or many specialty German hounds have their own specialty training.. like "K9" sites for GSD...
You guys want me to go "general practice" for a specialty heart problems???

Packet mom... and shell too.

I am not saying "you shouldn't" go to a general practictioner (a general dog trainer for a general dog with general dog breed)...
YOU can! 
Your heart, to trust that general practioner for specialty surgery... your choice = your problems.
But you shall not tell me to go "non specialized" treatment just because "you" do.

Your dog "generally" does not apply to my dog.
Like you should not tell a police dog GSD to go to any dog trainers if there is a specific task they should be trained to do.
Sure... if I want my Pyr to learn police task jobs for my Pyr I would send him to K9 training... but he may very well fail at that.
Don't think Roman would be hired by the police force anytime soon... nor Roman's breed.
The most Roman can probably do right would be to pull a wagon filled with artillery.

P.S. If a good Roman is that easy for me to get...I wouldn't have chosen to spend all that money and time to drive 7 plus hours each way to get him. Just like why I don't buy anything I can't see or touch... I choose to know before jumping into a decision.
Why should I expect any less from my to-be trainer???

My money, my heart = my way.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

While again.. just as you guys judges everyone and think yourself the best... CM haters and all... ( no I don't condone physical abuse as any part of training nor need training collars for my Pyr)... just saying Don Sullivan also gives money back guarantees.. much cheaper than a court case.

Same with those to satisfy customers "replacement " classes...
Cheaper than being taken to court.

And as to court cases... when there is binding contracts and agreement to sign...
Yah.. you can take that case to court. Why? No trainers have ever been sued???


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Dogs fail obedience classes all the time, but it doesn't mean you can't try again. Sometimes it's because the instructor wasn't good, and that happens. Sometimes the owner didn't put in enough work outside of class, or the dog just doesn't learn that fast. I'm repeating obedience II for the third time now. Watson is an adolescent and has trouble focusing in class, so we're going to repeat until he gets it. Did I demand a refund? No, of course not - it's not our instructor's fault that he's a young sporting dog whose brain hasn't grown in yet. It was nice of them to offer the repeat classes for half price though.

Oh, and my primary obedience instructor owns siberian huskies. Some of the other trainers we've worked with own corgis and shelties. My show handling instructor specializes in toy and hound breeds. So what? They're all experienced professionals who know how to train a dog, even if none of them have trained a Welshie or even have a ton of experience with sporting breeds. My dog acts nothing like a husky or a herding dog, but the principles of training are the same and an experienced trainer will know how to apply them to dogs with different personalities.

If I wanted to train my dog for field trials, sure I'd go to a field trial trainer who had experience with flushing spaniels. But for recall and leash walking, I'm going to go to trainers who have a lot of experience teaching other dogs and their owners these basic skills. It's not the difference between going to a general practitioner or a heart surgeon. It's the difference between a good trainer and a bad trainer, and one whose training philosophies agree with your own. It really doesn't matter if they have extensive experience with your breed. Pyrs are not any more unique than many other breeds with special breed traits.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There is something to be said for a trainer that has worked with many different breeds. One of my current trainers has border collies and a welsh sheepdog and she wants something different (smaller) next go around partially because she thinks it will help her train other peoples' dogs better. One of my other trainers has labs and the other one has had malamutes, lacy dogs, belgians, a border collie, and vizsla. My obedience trainer had aussies, my old agility trainer had giant schnauzers. None have had papillons or shelties so far.

I would not go to a trainer for a specific sport or work if the trainer hasn't titled/competed/or practically done that work with quite a few dogs. If you add in that the breeder MUST have your breed too, then... problems. Motivation is the big key for any dog training and good trainers are fantastic at figuring out what motivates your particular dog. Just because you can't find a trainer with your breed, doesn't mean you should completely forgo training classes.

I am actually looking at maybe getting the OTHER kind of pyr(shep). They're also very different kinds of dogs in a lot of ways from your average dog. The great pyrs did the guarding and the pyr sheps did the herding. Both very remote breeds that are quite primitive. Like I said there's only one I know of competing in the state and it's a long ways away. But my trainers have lots of experience with other breeds, they'll be fine if I go this route.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> Plenty of breeds, besides Great Pyrenees, are intelligent, independent, or "stubborn." (I don't necessarily like that word since I don't think it's really them trying to be a pain.) GP are really not a completely different species of dog and the same techniques that work with other LGD's generally work well with them as well. While there are good trainers and bad trainers, I don't think that just because you have a certain breed of dog that means that it is suddenly impossible to find a decent trainer. I know we all like to think our breed is unique and special, but there is a limit to it, particularly when it becomes counter-productive or limits our expectations of what we can do with our dogs or what we expect of ourselves as their owners.


I have heard a few trainers (since LGDs are pretty common down here as well with lots of goat/cattle farmers) say they wont even work with an LGD ... which makes me sad bacause they are great dogs in their own right, they just dont learn like other dogs do because its not in their nature to be complacent to commands, they are bred to think on their own without taking direction.

I know someone with a maramma pup that actually was turned away from a training center, the trainer took one look at him & said that she wouldnt even "waste her time" on LGDs


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> My money, my heart = my way.


I don't think anyone here is telling you specifically what you should or shouldn't be doing with YOUR dog. You SHOULD choose the vet and trainer that you are most comfortable with.

It's your generalization that Great Pyrenees is some kind of unique breed to which none of the regular rules of dog ownership apply that gets annoying and counter-productive when trying to give others advice. You want a trainer or vet with experience with your particular breed...great. However, not everyone is going to have that luxury, particularly if they live in a less populated area or their breed is more rare.

To tell someone that is having trouble with their dog that they shouldn't expect as much from their dog due to its breed or that they shouldn't seek out a trainer unless they can find one with experience with their specific breed...well, that's what I have a problem with, not what you personally choose for your own dog.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Above^^^agreed with dogdragoness.
I can verify that I have also read in other forums of trainers refusing to work with LGD due to trait issues.



packetsmom said:


> I don't think anyone here is telling you specifically what you should or shouldn't be doing with YOUR dog. You SHOULD choose the vet and trainer that you are most comfortable with.
> 
> It's your generalization that Great Pyrenees is some kind of unique breed to which none of the regular rules of dog ownership apply that gets annoying and counter-productive when trying to give others advice. You want a trainer or vet with experience with your particular breed...great. However, not everyone is going to have that luxury, particularly if they live in a less populated area or their breed is more rare.
> 
> To tell someone that is having trouble with their dog that they shouldn't expect as much from their dog due to its breed or that they shouldn't seek out a trainer unless they can find one with experience with their specific breed...well, that's what I have a problem with, not what you personally choose for your own dog.


Errr... I already said. 
Don't put words in my mouth...
One... I did not say "unique"... go find unique in my above posts.
Two... I stresses breed specific traits... why not??
Every breed has different traits... AKC standards or CKC... what ever.
Hell.. there is even a thread here " the best breed for me quizzes"???
Equates not every breed trait is cool with everyone.

Else there won't be books on all the unique different qualities with all the so many different dog breeds yah???
I didn't start those documents on these "breed trait standards"... go talk to people long dead for that.
But it does not end the facts and age old documents that Pyr has Pyr standards.
Again don't like that... you still can't change the facts... they are a specialized breed for a purpose and a reason... to help shepherds and farmers.
Not your nowadays regular pampered pooch with no job to do... like Roman.

Don't like the word specialized breed standard not my problem...
Does not apply to me. I am OK with specialized and specific breed standards... Roman could be a show dog... he even has all his standard traits (aloofness is a must for show Pyr). 

As for your regular rules... I am not communist... why should all rules apply to all dogs???
Most maybe... all ???
Roman is nocturnal.. doesn't mean your other dogs are also nocturnal and can not only sleep during the day while you are at work and then be awake at night while you sleep.
Or your dog can be left outside in the teens or single digits and still won't need a kennel...
Mine can (but again he house pet not working).. most dogs don't have that kinda coat.
Or have that chihuahua pull a wagon or cart to help you carry your 100 lb load.

If specialty breed trait history is so unimportant...
Then why even bother with questions like "what type of dog do you think my dog is... I'd please???"
Who cares for DNA gene tests then???

Hypocritical much?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> I have heard a few trainers (since LGDs are pretty common down here as well with lots of goat/cattle farmers) say they wont even work with an LGD ... which makes me sad bacause they are great dogs in their own right, they just dont learn like other dogs do because its not in their nature to be complacent to commands, they are bred to think on their own without taking direction.
> 
> I know someone with a maramma pup that actually was turned away from a training center, the trainer took one look at him & said that she wouldnt even "waste her time" on LGDs


It's a lousy attitude on a few fronts. Because LGD are FAR from the only class of dogs bred to work without taking direction from humans. If they'll train scent hounds, they should be capable of working with an LGD. Seriously. They're. Not. That. Hard. They're all over, here, like I said - at least Pyrs. They're pretty independent, yes, and you have to make it worth their while. But most are also CRAZY food motivated and if they have been pets/are pets.... the people are their flock, they're devoted to that, AND they tend to be crazy food motivated. I've found more challenge in the large working hounds (beagles are slightly easier) than most pyrs. 

I just... don't get people insisting that they're some impossible, extra difficult dog. You get into Caucasians or something, yeah, you're dealing with a more serious dog, but even working pyrs are not hard to get through basic obedience. You want to start making them work off leash you might have more issues, but otherwise? Not a huge deal. AT ALL.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

There are beagles who can hunt for 2-3 days and never get lost...
There are dogs that will walk off leash besides you...

Care to apply that for a Pyr???
Do you think a Pyr who will roam easy 500 square miles a day won't get "dis-a-pyring" and will come home without the humans looking for it???
Do any trainer even recommends that... Ohh... your Pyr will be fine like most dogs with off leash walks and will easily mark your scent to come back to you... yah.

Difficult does not only mean taming the beast like OC...
Difficult because Pyr gets 'lost' due to its urge to find home in the Pyrenees (the common legend why Pyr disapyr)... heard of that???
Don't think OC or most LGD nonpyr pines for pyreenes mountains.
Just saying...


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

hueyeats said:


> There are beagles who can hunt for 2-3 days and never get lost...
> *It's called training*
> 
> There are dogs that will walk off leash besides you...
> ...


Positive training, such as clicker training or rewards based training in general, works with basically any animal. Dolphins, horses, pigs, even cats and rabbits, and of course humans. 

If the same basic training techniques apply well to such a disparate bunch of creatures as that, why in the world are you continuously suggesting/implying that a Great Pyr is so different from other dog breeds that they need super-special training and need to be treated like a different animal all together?

I agree with CptJack that someone used to working with the large hound breeds could also be well suited to working with the more common LGDs. There's a commonality of independent thought there and less of the super eager to please found in say, most bully breeds as an example.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Again.. as a trainer tell your Pyr clients any clicker training can make your Pyr not "disapyr"...
I urge you to try that with Pyr forums and see how far you go with the Pyr crowds.

Seriously... try it.

Not recommended though... you will most likely have to at least buy another Pyr to replace that disapyred Pyr rather quickly.
Again.. they are not called dis-a-pyr for nothing... breed trait.
Since come, recall and down they are already "questioning" these commands...
Out of sight (500 sq miles covered easily... they may be steady, Pyr can also be fast) woo hop... out of mind.

To top it off...
While some dogs like GSD do hear better due to "erect ears" and likes obeying..
Pyr had that breed standard excuse of a floppy ears... act half deaf.

Good luck, you will need it.

P.S. if you are actually successful in training Pyr to not disapyr... that would be a training I won't mind having Roman learn. Remember... off leash, fence free never wandering or roaming off ever (money back guarantee right???) Definitely interested if you are that confident.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

our anatolian was a "homebody" the fence isnt totally secure ... like he "could" escape if he wanted to ... but because he was conditioned to know where his "home" range is hee had no need to. when he was young the people we bouight the property from (they raised him) taught him well ... dont know how they did it though But i am a better dog enthusiast for knowing "Scout"


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hueyeats said:


> Again.. as a trainer tell your Pyr clients any clicker training can make your Pyr not "disapyr"...
> I urge you to try that with Pyr forums and see how far you go with the Pyr crowds.


Umm, nobody said that a quick clicker training class would make a Pyr stick around without a fence. I'm pretty sure most people would agree that most huskies and hounds aren't likely to stick around either, despite training. So? I'm not sure I see the point. The OP's questions have nothing to do with wanting her dog to stick close off leash. The problems she's having could be fixed by any experienced trainer, whether they had direct experience with Pyrs or not.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Again.. as a trainer tell your Pyr clients any clicker training can make your Pyr not "disapyr"...
> I urge you to try that with Pyr forums and see how far you go with the Pyr crowds.
> 
> Seriously... try it.
> ...


My inlaws next door neighbors trained their 3 pyrs using standard positive training with clicker mostly using standard books and videos. They've had pyrs for over 13 years always off leash and never had one disappear.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Beagles hunting 2-3 days without getting lost? It's called a GPS collar, more often than not  And the fact that the hunter's job is to TRACK THEM, not the dog's job to stay with the hunter. Since the dogs are, you know, following rabbits not giving a [email protected] about the hunter. They find and chase the rabbit, the hunter tracks the dog and shoots the rabbit when it goes running by  Very minimal 'stay with me' training there, since if the dogs stayed with the hunter, there wouldn't really be hunting going on. I grew up with a pack of rabbit beagles and **** hounds, and a family that hunted both. You let the dogs go, you listen and FOLLOW AFTER THEM. They get stuck on a tree or a hole, and that's... how you get them back. Not with a recall. And a lot got lost before GPS collars.

And yeah, I've never heard a single trainer suggest most dogs are fine off leash from the get-go. Ever. I would probably not bother trying with a pyr, except the part where unlike hounds and huskies they don't bolt. They just... don't come. It's like the slowest run away ever.

And yes, re: positive clicker training. I don't know how many times I have to say I'm familiar with and have owned Pyrs. They're food motivated, intelligent dogs. You won't train them out of the desire to wander off, bark at things in the night and dig holes, but basic obedience and manners with positive reenforcement. As easy with a pyr as a lab. The idea that it's not is _LAUGHABLE_! I have no idea why you're so invested in this, except perhaps the idea that you think it makes you a super special dog owner of a special hard dog and I'm sorry, that's just not the case. Pyrs are not any harder headed, more independent, or difficult to own if you have the right PHYSICAL environment than your average hound or hound mix.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

dogdragoness said:


> our anatolian was a "homebody" the fence isnt totally secure ... like he "could" escape if he wanted to ... but because he was conditioned to know where his "home" range is hee had no need to. when he was young the people we bouight the property from (they raised him) taught him well ... dont know how they did it though But i am a better dog enthusiast for knowing "Scout"


Again.. I can attest.
Roman if he want to he could open the gate... but he knows he is not supposed to.

What I am interested in is when you let that gate down and he will actually stay around his perimeter boundary (marked by shit) in unfenced area and not travel into neighbouring farms. Or wanders off during hikes on unfamiler territories. Or ever gets lost. "Ever" being that trick question.

Roman is actually already one of the easy Pyr to train... and I have the fear of him disapyring as well... else won't be looking for that good GPS device.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Umm, nobody said that a quick clicker training class would make a Pyr stick around without a fence. I'm pretty sure most people would agree that most huskies and hounds aren't likely to stick around either, despite training. So? I'm not sure I see the point. The OP's questions have nothing to do with wanting her dog to stick close off leash. The problems she's having could be fixed by any experienced trainer, whether they had direct experience with Pyrs or not.


...I'm not sure my dogs would stick around without a fence. They're off leash all the time but tossed in the yard sans fence? They'd leave. (Also, why would I want to do that? who would want to do that? What's the point? I mean working dogs excepted, and at that point the pyr ain't leaving the flock.... which is also a breed trait)

Pyrs have, at least, the advantage of SAUNTERING off, rather than dashing, you know? They're NOT particularly fast dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

hueyeats said:


> Again.. as a trainer tell your Pyr clients any clicker training can make your Pyr not "disapyr"...
> I urge you to try that with Pyr forums and see how far you go with the Pyr crowds.
> 
> *Where did I say anything about clicker training vs roaming off? My point is that Pyrs are dogs. Just dogs. Every breed has quirks, every individual dog has individual needs. There are hounds that a perfect off-leash and there as companion breeds that will run for the hills. If the original poster finds a trainer that she likes and that can work with her individual dog, that is what matters.*
> ...


Train your dog however you want, I really don't care. But for the original poster who may need options, she needs to know that the experience and qualifications OVERALL of a trainer matters more than experience with any specific breed. Looking for experience with breeds who share common traits can be helpful though.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

CptJack...
My father in law has beagles too besides coonhounds.
(Won hunting competitions ones).

In the 70s80s... what GPS collars???

And they stick around that 6-700 acres always coming back after going after rabbits for 3/4 days.
They stay too... if my fil wants them to.
Again they are beagles.... not disapyred... Roman can cover the territory of 700 acres in what??? A day?? An hour???
Beagles also likes 'circling' back = why good for chasing bunnies.. Roman... not his trait = not beagles.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> ...I'm not sure my dogs would stick around without a fence. They're off leash all the time but tossed in the yard sans fence? They'd leave. (Also, why would I want to do that? who would want to do that? What's the point? I mean working dogs excepted, and at that point the pyr ain't leaving the flock.... which is also a breed trait)
> 
> Pyrs have, at least, the advantage of SAUNTERING off, rather than dashing, you know? They're NOT particularly fast dogs.


Uh, ditto with Watson. He's off leash daily in our fields, and has decent recall, but if I left him out without supervision, he'd be gone to the neighbors pretty quickly. Pretty sure almost any dog would, which is why fences or tie outs are recommended for all dogs.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I just can't wait to tell my lab friends that their dogs are half deaf because of their ears. :laugh:

op2:


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Umm, nobody said that a quick clicker training class would make a Pyr stick around without a fence. I'm pretty sure most people would agree that most huskies and hounds aren't likely to stick around either, despite training. So? I'm not sure I see the point. The OP's questions have nothing to do with wanting her dog to stick close off leash. The problems she's having could be fixed by any experienced trainer, whether they had direct experience with Pyrs or not.


Huh... then I must have made up that word dis-a-pyr.
Care to share who they are???
I'd like to learn from them.



packetsmom said:


> I just can't wait to tell my lab friends that their dogs are half deaf because of their ears. :laugh:
> 
> op2:


I said act deaf. Read much?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hueyeats said:


> Huh... then I must have made up that word dis-a-pyr.
> Care to share who they are???
> I'd like to learn from them.


What? I'm so confused. Your comment made absolutely no sense in relation to mine.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> What? I'm so confused. Your comment made absolutely no sense in relation to mine.


They think pyrs are special Not Really Like Other Dogs (any other dogs). Your comment implied otherwise. /helpful translation.



packetsmom said:


> I just can't wait to tell my lab friends that their dogs are half deaf because of their ears. :laugh:
> 
> op2:


Well mine are awesome! have you SEEN the ears on my guys? They must be able to hear for miles.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Shell said:


> Train your dog however you want, I really don't care..... Looking for experience with breeds who share common traits can be helpful though.


Hah! Thank you.
Very helpful indeed.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> I said act deaf. Read much?


You can insult me all you like, but, similar to a Pyr (is it just too much work to type the breed name out?), I have selective hearing, despite my non-floppy ears.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> They think pyrs are special Not Really Dogs. Your comment implied otherwise.


Maybe there should be a special "Pyr Approved" designation for training facilities. 

It's a good thing this only applies to Pyrs though - I would have a hard time finding a special spaniel trainer around here.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> What? I'm so confused. Your comment made absolutely no sense in relation to mine.


Don't act confused... who are these Pyr owners???
Care to refer so I can learn from them???

Seriously, its a good thing for me to learn from Pyr owners with experiences of 4 dogs.
That is Pyr knowledge I totally recommend.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Maybe there should be a special "Pyr Approved" designation for training facilities.
> 
> It's a good thing this only applies to Pyrs though - I would have a hard time finding a special spaniel trainer around here.


Oh man. I don't even know what I would do if it applied to all of mine. What would I even look for, with Kylie? "Small mutt with no identifiable single breed, but who is probably smarter than you" trainer?

Thud could probably use the Pyr Approved facilities, but I suspect those use prong and shock collars and a lot of yelling and I think he'd just cower and cry a lot. He's half pyr and half gsd, but he's kind of a big baby and I think he'd break. Okay, he wouldn't, since not much phases him but food and praise work well with him.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hueyeats said:


> Don't act confused... who are these Pyr owners???
> Care to refer so I can learn from them???
> 
> Seriously, its a good thing for me to learn from Pyr owners with experiences of 4 dogs.
> That is Pyr knowledge I totally recommend.


I never said anything about Pyr owners? I said that nobody on this forum suggested that someone could train a Pyr to be ok off leash with a quick clicker training class. But that doesn't mean Pyrs are some super unique special breed - huskies and hounds often can't be trained to be off leash either. My point is, lots of dogs aren't good off leash. The OP wants her dog to come to her occasionally (from a fenced in yard, not from 1,000ft away) and walk correctly on a leash. Both things can be taught by any good basic obedience instructor. 

I just don't understand why you are so defensive and insistent that Pyrs are dogs unlike any other. All breeds have their traits, but at the end of the day they are just dogs. Plenty of traits overlap between breeds too (huskies, hounds, and LGDs are all known for taking off and not looking back), but positive reinforcement training done by a good, knowledgeable, experienced trainer, will work for all of them. Maybe those dogs will never be solid off leash dogs - but so what? That's not even the point of this thread.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> You can insult me all you like, but, similar to a Pyr (is it just too much work to type the breed name out?), I have selective hearing, despite my non-floppy ears.


Lol....
Did you even refer to 'this' forum...
Great pyreness people often refer them as Pyr??? 
Just go search at that search bar on this forum to the breed.

So... you don't like breed specific.
You don't like that I refer Pyr as Pyr...

Your problems not mine.
Ad to selective hearing... good that you admit.
Thus why you act deaf?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> Don't act confused... who are these Pyr owners???
> Care to refer so I can learn from them???


I'm RIGHT HERE!

Use a clicker, positive reenforcement and treat them like other dogs. AMAZINGLY they learn! Now, I'd still suggest a fence or long line/tie out, unless you're out there with them or they're working. But like I keep saying: I've had pyrs. They're not hard. They respond to the same training methods as other dogs and better than some! They don't need special, more harsh, or unique training methods. They DO need an owner who doesn't expect them not to have breed traits, but those same traits are found in sledding dogs, most northern breeds, and both scent and sight hounds.

You just keep telling me I'm a liar.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Thud could probably use the Pyr Approved facilities, but I suspect those use prong and shock collars and a lot of yelling and I think he'd just cower and cry a lot. He's half pyr and half gsd, but he's kind of a big baby and I think he'd break.


The old school super spaniel trainers like shock collars and the forced fetch, so I'll stick with my R+ trainers, even if they do only know about huskies/corgis/shelties/chessies/wheatens/toy breeds/hounds/etc/etc


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Lol....
> Did you even refer to 'this' forum...
> Great pyreness people often refer them as Pyr???
> Just go search at that search bar on this forum to the breed.
> ...


Wow...classy.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> The old school super spaniel trainers like shock collars and the forced fetch, so I'll stick with my R+ trainers, even if they do only know about huskies/corgis/shelties/chessies/wheatens/toy breeds/hounds/etc/etc


In fairness, I don't think Thud would really care if you hit him over the head with a 2X4, but given how easy he is to train with R+, I see very little point. I know, I know, he's a Big Serious Dog, I should want to beat him into submission or something, but man. I LIKE HIM and it doesn't SEEM like he's planning world domination any time soon. I don't know, call me lazy and delusional I guess. Maybe he's actually an alien?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> In fairness, I don't think Thud would really care if you hit him over the head with a 2X4, but given how easy he is to train with R+, I see very little point. I know, I know, he's a Big Serious Dog, I should want to beat him into submission or something, but man. I LIKE HIM and it doesn't SEEM like he's planning world domination any time soon. I don't know, call me lazy and delusional I guess. Maybe he's actually an alien?


Well...you know my theory about the imminent world takeover by Thud and his followers! Of course, I think that as long as we provide treats and belly rubs, our new overlords will be benevolent.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I never said anything about Pyr owners? I said that nobody on this forum suggested that someone could train a Pyr to be ok off leash with a quick clicker training class. But that doesn't mean Pyrs are some super unique special breed - huskies and hounds often can't be trained to be off leash either. My point is, lots of dogs aren't good off leash. The OP wants her dog to come to her occasionally (from a fenced in yard, not from 1,000ft away) and walk correctly on a leash. Both things can be taught by any good basic obedience instructor.
> 
> I just don't understand why you are so defensive and insistent that Pyrs are dogs unlike any other. All breeds have their traits, but at the end of the day they are just dogs. Plenty of traits overlap between breeds too (huskies, hounds, and LGDs are all known for taking off and not looking back), but positive reinforcement training done by a good, knowledgeable, experienced trainer, will work for all of them. Maybe those dogs will never be solid off leash dogs - but so what? That's not even the point of this thread.


Then think from my POV...
I don't understand why people is sooooo defensive when breed specific is mentioned???
And Pyr being cat-like is referred by others GPC breed info I think.
Why should others be defensive even if I want to see my dog as unique and special???

Their problems right???

Roman IS special... to me... why how many dogs you know get to eat foie gras???
Again... why should I be defending what I feel special about???
I sure don't go telling you guys you should not feel special about your dog breed or not.

If I want to feel Pyr is not dog like and agree with someone else saying they are cat like... My Right.

If I want to say I only will hire people who knows Pyr... why should anyone suddenly become defensive and say... I am wrong???

Seriously. Who is defensive?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

hueyeats said:


> Then think from my POV...
> I don't understand why people is sooooo defensive when breed specific is mentioned???
> And Pyr being cat-like is referred by others GPC breed info I think.
> Why should others be defensive even if I want to see my dog as unique and special???
> ...



Because it's not breed specific. Catlike is referred to and mentioned in relation to many asian breeds and hounds, too. Your insistence that what PYRS AS A BREED need, when dealing with a pyr question, is frustrating and WRONG -= as in factually incorrect. Also, by implying your dog is THAT special, you're discounting the fact that we ALL feel passionately about our dogs. 

As for dogs who eat fois gras? Not many. The level of fat in that would kill mine, but that's your call. I stick to raw and/or 5 star kibble. Though I suppose I use various forms of poultry liver for treats, so I suppose maybe it counts as a treat food they (and many other dogs) regularly get. 

You can feel as passionately about your dog as you want. You can love him as much as you want. when you make claims that your dog breed is some mythical creature with super-special requirements for learning, you're doing the breed as a whole a disservice. They're dogs. Lots of dog breeds do have special requirements not a single one I am aware of is totally unique in those. Pyrs and Northern breeds and large hounds and many terriers are all the same with those digging, noise, and 'cat like' temperaments. Many of the others are harder to own and train. This doesn't seem like you feeling deeply in love with your dog, it seems like you consider yourself a superior dog owner for owning a 'hard' breed. Who is not,a ctually, ALL THAT HARD. 

If you want to impress me, get an Airedale or a bloodhound. (And even THOSE respond to the same classical conditioning and training methods as dogs, cats, dolphins, parrots, goldfish and jaguars.)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hueyeats said:


> Then think from my POV...
> I don't understand why people is sooooo defensive when breed specific is mentioned???
> And Pyr being cat-like is referred by others GPC breed info I think.
> Why should others be defensive even if I want to see my dog as unique and special???
> ...


I think you're defensive, honestly. 

Nobody ever said you had to use trainers we like. Nobody said you can't feed your dog what you want. And certainly nobody said that you can't think your dog is special. We *all* think our dogs are the most special dogs out there.

But going onto a thread by a Pyr owner and claiming that they are such special and different dogs that no normal person can train them, and they need special methods and special handling, is doing the OP a disservice. Her dog may be difficult, but plenty of dogs are difficult and good trainers can help her work through that. The traits Pyrs display are not unique and are shared by plenty of other breeds who are trained easily by normal methods.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

hueyeats said:


> Why should others be defensive even if I want to see my dog as unique and special???
> 
> If I want to say I only will hire people who knows Pyr... why should anyone suddenly become defensive and say... I am wrong???
> 
> Seriously. Who is defensive?


No one is saying you cannot think your dog, as an individual, is unique and special. I bet most people feel their dog is special to them and probably has a few unique (to that dog) quirks or likes or dislikes. No one is saying that YOU cannot hire a trainer that specializes in whatever- be it a breed or a technique or a sport.

What people are trying to point out to you, is that AS A BREED, the Great Pyrenees is not all that unique among the various dog breeds. There are overlapping breed traits with a number of other breeds that for the problems the original poster has and for the vast majority of problems and needs of Average Joe dog owner, an overall experienced training will be perfectly competent to serve the needs to their dog.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

[QUOTEcptJack;1746538]I'm RIGHT HERE!

Use a clicker, positive reenforcement and treat them like other dogs. AMAZINGLY they learn! Now, I'd still suggest a fence or long line/tie out, unless you're out there with them or they're working. But like I keep saying: I've had pyrs. They're not hard. They respond to the same training methods as other dogs and better than some! They don't need special, more harsh, or unique training methods. They DO need an owner who doesn't expect them not to have breed traits, but those same traits are found in sledding dogs, most northern breeds, and both scent and sight hounds.

You just keep telling me I'm a liar.[/QUOTE]

Huh???
Where did anyone ever read that I condone yelling and prong collars...???
Go quote me???

Sorry I don't believe in clickers.
I have one for my cat... Roman does not respond to it. 


And as to harsh training... Roman will probably become harsher = back fires.
I do do "trust" training though...
He observes and experiences to learn from things he should or shouldn't do.
Like jumping on top steps equals to falling down a couple steps so he refuse to fall hence just don't and won't do that again.
Not even a no... so what yelling???

I tried prong on him once... he don't like it... show him his regular collar back... he trust me to him being safe = walk loose leash the way I want him to.

I ask him to sit, he trust me sit is best for him... he sits.

Ohhhh very harsh right???
In fact because of that stubborn breed trait you don't do anything to cause mistrust. Period.
That includes protecting that Pyr if you don't want a guard dog like a baby china piece of fragile antique so he remained the child and never have to grow up stressing how to defend that territories. = Trust in territories already secured by owners so Pyr don't need to work.

So tell me where did any harsh training ideas come from???
I only used Don Sullivan as example because someone above that post mentioned money back guarantee could mean use prong or control collars... did I say I am "pro" anyone??

(I will stress... I will never pick one method over another... why?? Open mind collection of all knowledge is better than a narrow inflexible choice of only one or two... Power of knowledge you know.. vaster the better... yah includes negative and even bad ones... else how can one even learn from mistakes to a better results???)

Yah... welcome to bullying on the internet.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

op2:

//too short


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

> Open mind collection of all knowledge is better than a narrow inflexible choice of only one or two... Power of knowledge you know.. vaster the better... yah includes negative and even bad ones... else how can one even learn from mistakes to a better results???)
> 
> Yah... welcome to bullying on the internet.


This is exactly what the rest of us have been saying. Why be closed minded about a vet or trainer who, in every other respect might be a great fit, but who hasn't yet worked with one particular breed, particularly if the problems the OP needs work on are not necessarily unique to that breed. We are advocating that you not push a narrow inflexible choice on people simply because they happen to have a certain breed.

And...as far as bullying on the internet...please point to where anyone else insulted you personally rather than discussing the content of your discussion. You are the one who has been flinging insults at pretty much anyone who disagrees with you.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I feel like there is a language barrier problem going on here. 

hueyeats, you're taking this all way too personally, and I think you're missing the points we're making. No one is trying to bully you, but I think everyone is getting frustrated that you don't seem to understand what we're saying, no matter how we say it.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

P.S. and you know why I like to read others problems or issues on dogs???
Their mistakes = my gain in knowledge... 
And I happened to believe in that.

To me... sometimes reflection of negative results is more meaningful... mistakes you actually learn not to repeat.
Like the steps experiment with Roman.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I feel like there is a language barrier problem going on here.
> 
> hueyeats, you're taking this all way too personally, and I think you're missing the points we're making. No one is trying to bully you, but I think everyone is getting frustrated that you don't seem to understand what we're saying, no matter how we say it.


I don't care to be made fun of... like that floppy ear comment.

OK.. done.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hueyeats said:


> I don't care to be made fun of... like that floppy ear comment.


I'm not making fun of you at all, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I just find it hard to understand your posts sometimes and I don't think you are reading ours the way they are intended, so I thought perhaps you weren't a native English speaker. I'm sorry if that's an incorrect assumption.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

:jaw: Holy Cow what happened! I leave my thread for a day, and come back to 3 more pages of posts, and lots of bickering... I tried to read through it all, but I have to admit, I by page 4 I was skimming....

So I'll hit the points I thought were actually aimed at me, and if I missed something important, please point it out.

First, he may look cuddly, but he HATES being cuddled, lol. My cat and other dog with both snuggle like cute little teddy bears, but Cthulhu isn't a fan of being hugged, leaned on, or even really sat next to, though he will occasionally sit on your lap if you try to sit on the couch. It's a shame, since he really is so soft and fluffy, but I don't push it. He doesn't like it, I don't do it. 

The obedience class I took hi to really wasn't a good fit. I'm not sure if she just wasn't that great of a trainer, or if he needed more one on one time, or if her methods just didn't work with him. She was very into luring with treats, and since Cthulhu gets bored with treats easily... Well, it was a problem. I think I may have come in here asking for help while I was in the class. The funny point was that the trainer at one point was insisting that he wasn't doing well because I wasn't doing what she told me to, and she took Cthulhu's leash to try to "demonstrate". He gave she the exact same problem he was giving me... I think that was the point things really went bad, because it was almost like the trainer wrote him off as a lost cause, separated me from the group, and really didn't directly interact with me or Cthulhu again... I'd love to try a different trainer/class, but there are no other PR group classes locally (except at the pet stores), and private lessons are way out of my price range.

I really like what people said about me needing to bond with Cthulhu. I've always said that he just don't like me much, and I think what I really mean by that is that we haven't bonded. At all. He LOVES my fiance; they practically bonded the moment they met. But where he's crazy excited when Gavin gets home, he's pretty indifferent toward me. Does anyone have any specific advice on things we can do to bond? 

Also, I've seen several mentions of Pyr specific forums. I'd looked before, and I joined a yahoo group, but honestly, I've always had a hard time keeping track of the trains of thought on email groups like that. The only other Pyr forum I found was very dominance based, so I didn't bother. I'm assuming there are other ones out there that are more PR oriented? Could anyone give me a name or a link so I could check them out?

Finally, I've been reading the "When Pigs Fly" book. Yeah, that's my dog... I'm still not comfortable with a clicker, (did I mention that in this post, or my one about my other dog? I'm still clumbsy, and I feel like my timing is off.) but I'm goingto do my best and start with him on Monday. I'd say tomorrow, but I'm crazy busy this weekend, and I figure waiting two days can't hurt, lol.

Ok, I think that's all the stuff I saw that required a reply. Like I said, if I missed anything, let me know. Thanks for all the help!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Have you looked for places like agility clubs or other sports? I'm not saying go to those places but they may have some referrals to other obedience type schools. I know around here that some of the trainers are kind of hard to find unless you're in the 'know'. Which sucks for the average public because if you're not in the dog world around town, you just don't know of all your resources. But not all good trainers are great at marketing, unfortunately.

What does Cthulhu like to do? I would focus on that and then do that with him. Something low stress that he enjoys and you can enjoy. Belly scratches, car rides, playing toys, whatever. Make sure the two of you do something fun together every day. Training also helps- and by training I mean playing games like 101 things to do with a box.

What kinds of treats have you been using? Most dogs are food motivated to some extent but you may need to up your value of treats. Human food is often the best. I haven't found a dog yet that doesn't go crazy over tuna treats or hot dogs. But if food is really not working, you need to get more creative. Toys are often used as a reward. Tug, playing ball if he's into that. If he's not into that then even more creativity. I've seen people use tire pumps, plastic bags, letting the dog run free, sniffing, etc as rewards. Watch him closely and see what makes him light up. Try to harness that joy of whatever it is to work FOR you and not against you.

If you're having trouble fumbling for the clicker, the clicker is totally not necessary. I find the clicker makes things clearer to the dog however you can replace the clicker with a short, consistent word. I use 'yes!' more often than a clicker.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I used to wear my clicker around my neck when I trained so it was always at easy access.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Sorry about that...now back on track.

Specific advice on bonding...

I think, honestly, getting the walks back a lot will help. Beyond that, I'd probably try hand feeding him his meals. Very often, the way to a dog's heart is through his tummy. Also, are there any games he likes to play? He needs to learn being with you is fun. At the same time, though, I'd also practice some of the stuff in the NILIF sticky as well.

I think you'll be able to turn him around with just a little patience and persistence.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Bonding... Roman first bond with me through food (foodie mom) and I know your Pyr don't.

About cuddles... Roman also slowly learn to love cuddles... takes time that one.
We first start by just sitting close and can be playing... like throwing a toy or treat so he go to get it (he is kinda like a retriever seriously). But we'd ignore him most of the time (so he actually solicite that attention... ignoring a a good trick).
We also get his attention to "check us out" by pretenting to be interested in the toy and treats more than interested in him... that works too. And as he gets more comfortable with us... the treat play time gets longer.
Note: We always are the ones to "end playtime" though... leave him wanting more.

Roman has been with us for 6 months already... if you are still new to your Pyr, it will take some time.
Practice the "PyrPatience"... and yah... you do need the patience of a Buddha like someone else mentioned.

***Reward good behaviour, ignore the bad.
^^^Taken from someone else as well.

Now... sharing Roman's pic.







^^^Oct 2012, First day we got him...







^^^Nov 2012







^^^Roman's fav. couch and green pillow at 7 months







^^^Totally out 8 months














^^^More 8 months (house dog)







^^^Winter Feb 2013 







Roman april 2013

P.S. If it is not too gross to you... try a piece of his fav. meat (not raw... Roman loves raw deer though) in your mouth (make sure he sees it there), use your finger to tear the meat to feed him the meat. Roman and I share meals sometimes like that (him on one end, me on the other... Roman enjoy that alot).


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

jfinner1 said:


> oes anyone have any specific advice on things we can do to bond?
> 
> Finally, I've been reading the "When Pigs Fly" book. Yeah, that's my dog... I'm still not comfortable with a clicker, (did I mention that in this post, or my one about my other dog? I'm still clumbsy, and I feel like my timing is off.) but I'm goingto do my best and start with him on Monday. I'd say tomorrow, but I'm crazy busy this weekend, and I figure waiting two days can't hurt, lol.


When I read When Pigs Fly, I thought OMG, THAT IS LUCAS! I was so relieved to find a book that addressed his personality type so well. With him I don't think it's the breed, great danes are not known to be especially independent minded, I think it was just the way he adapted to his hearing and vision impairment because of the environment he lived in previously (not to say that all deafies are like Lucas). 

Just keep practicing with the clicker, you will get better and the better at it you get the faster the dogs will pick up things. Besides, the clicker relies mostly on skills similar to any kind of marker you'd use, observation, timing, treat delivery, the only additional skill is a little more hand dexterity.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

Hello again everyone!

*Laurelin:* The place Cthulhu and I took our class was at the local dog "club" I guess. There's the only place I know about around here, and they do basic obedience, obedience trials, agility, rally, doggy dancing, the sport with the dumbbells... Basically all the sports I know of. They have different trainers that work for and through the club, but it seems like the trainers are all specified. Like, this person teaches the agility classes, this person teaches obedience, etc. I think there was only one obedience trainer there, though I'm not positive. There are two other training facilities, but they are both dominance/correction based training. I don't know of any other dog clubs in the area, but we are frequent visitors at our local dog park, so I can ask some of the people there about trainers. Maybe they will know about someone I haven't heard of.

Cthulhu favorite thing in the world to do is chew on socks... I'm not sure how I could use that. I've tried playing tug with his socks, like he does with the other dog, and he just drops it. I think he may have previously gotten in trouble for his sock thieving? He kinda acts like I'm going to yell at him whenever I reach for a sock. Not quite a cower, just droopy ears and ducked head, if that makes sense.

His next favorite thing is car rides, and going to the dog park. I'm going to try to take him more this week, but my fiance and I share a car, so I only have the car usually twice a week. 

His next favorite thing is walks. I bought an Easy Walk harness yesterday. I won't say it fixed his pulling, but it did help. My fiance and I took him out today (I brought my fiance along in case it didn't help), and I was able to control him when he went after a car. He still pulls, but I think he can tell that throwing his weight against it won't help. I'm planning on taking him for a nice long walk tomorrow and really work on getting his LLW back on track.

Cthulhu is a pain on the treats end. Hotdogs, chicken jerky, and liver jerky, which should be high value treats, he finds boring. String cheese made him sick. He loves Swiss cheese, so I bought a block of Swiss at the store today. I'm gonna slice it up into training size pieces tomorrow, and hope he doesn't get bored with that too... I'll mix it up with the hotdogs and chicken to try to keep it more interesting...

*packetsmom:* I tried hand feeding him his dinner today. He thought I was pretty nuts... I sat there holding a piece of chicken. He sniffed it, then looked at me, licked it, looked at me, and it looked like he started to take it from me, like he'd mouth it, but as soon as I let it go, he would drop it. And refuse to pick it up. 20 minutes later, he still hadn't eaten a singe piece, and my own dinner needed to come out of the oven, so I tossed it in his kennel and left, which is basically how I normally feed him. When we first got Cthullhu, we had a problem with him and my other dog fighting over their dinners, so I managed to train both of them to sit politely and wait for their dinners. The routine has changed now that they are on raw (first time we fed raw in the house, Cthulhu tried to take a raw chicken leg onto the couch. Now he gets fed in his kennel, lol.) Is it possible that this previous training is preventing him from taking food from my hand? Either way, should I just keep trying, or should I try a different way, or any ideas?

We do do a bit of NILF work. He has to sit and wait at the door before going outside, and has to sit and wait in the car before getting out. Still working on the waiting before jumping in, but he loves car rides, lol. I have him sit every time he wants pet. He has to "go to bed" before he gets dinner. I'll re-read the NILF stuff, see what other stuff we can incorporate.

*hueyeats:* I'll keep trying, lol. I tried to use that advice to get him come "check me out" earlier today. He was laying in the living room, looking bored, so I sat down a few feet away (if I'd sat down next to him, he would have gotten up and moved, lol) and picked up one of his chew toys. I played with it, waggled it, tossed it around a bit... And the cat came over and tried to play with me. Cthulhu just sat there and stared at me... Lol! I must be REALLY BORING!!!! I'll keep trying...

*Tylerthegiant: *I am going to have to read some of your posts... Hearing AND vision impaired? Wow! I wouldn't even know where to start! I've only ever met one dog that was both hearing and vision impaired, and I didn't know him well. He was my ex-husband's mother's neighbor's dog, and he was I think 23 years old or something. But he was apparently beautifully trained when he was younger, didn't loose his sight until later in life, and still had some hearing left. He died about a year after I first met him (old age of course); I don't even remember his name...


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

Sounds like your making some great sides! I also think it's great how you focus on the advise, and the spirit in which it is given. 

Lucas can hear some tones, and he is not blind, but he does have some vision problems, has trouble seeing in low light, seeing movement, poor peripheral vision but he can see, just not real well. But yeah, imagine a dog something like Cthulhu as far as biddability, motivation, a rehome with trust and bonding issues, another giant breed, and deaf and visually impaired! Lucas was born with these impairments though and doesn't know he has them, and neither would most people who meet him. It comes from a double merle gene, called the "lethal white" gene since many pups with the double merle don't live through gestation, and is common to other breeds as well, as I'm sure Aussie members on here could tell you about. 

But that's why I know you can bond with this dog and make your life easier. I know it can be done.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

ITA with ^^^.
Great points.
Keep trying... we are all with you and hope he turn around and be that best dog he can be.

"Staring" is good... its "contact"... he is looking at least, a reaction.


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## jfinner1 (Mar 4, 2009)

We have progress! Lol. Cthulhu and I just went for our first walk in ages. It went really really well. We only did a half mile, so not far compared to what we used to do, but it's a start. He wasn't perfect, but the easy walk harness made it so that even when he decided to try and pull me over, he didn't get anywhere. And he only really tried three times, once after a squirrel, once to go meet a jogger, and once to say hi to another dog. We even stopped at the park to say hi to a bunch of kids, and he was very good. I'm thrilled that I can walk him again, and I think that it's really going to help us. So excited!


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

^^^Great!!!!:clap2::rockon::whoo:

Ohhhh... and do share a whole bunch o' pics in the picture thread!!! 
I'd love another fellow Pyr's pics.


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