# I need to cool down.



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

My brothers chi just pooped in the house. He took him, shoved his face in it, yelled NO, BAD DOG and locked him outside. We got into a big argument when I told him he was wrong. I told him that his other dog got scared when the chi pooped in the house yesterday and he said, "Because he saw that something wasnt right, he should be scared. Would you be scared if you saw a dead body in the living room?" I tried to explain to him that its different, and he went off saying my dogs chew my furniture and aren't potty trained. He said he can lock his dog inside with no doggy door and he wont have an accident because he knows better. My dogs might have an accident, because they dont know better. He argued that you cant train a dog on 100% positive reinforcement. I told him unless you catch the dog in the act, they have NO IDEA what you are yelling at them for. They think they get yelled at when there is poop in the house, and dont put 2 and 2 together. He claims they do. He refuses to believe me. Sigh... oh well. Agree to disagree on this one I suppose. My dogs love me, and come to me. His dogs love him and his gf too, but I dont want my dogs to be SCARED of me if they have an accident, as long as I know it was an ACCIDENT. They dont praise their dog for going outside. They YELL at him for going inside. Oh well. I guess I am the only one who thinks this is the wrong way to train a dog.. Anyone else?


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

You should have said "look at my dogs, I use only positive reenforcment and my dogs don't have accidents and are obedient. My dogs listen because they respect me, not because they fear me." I hate people who think that a dog has to fear you to be obedient.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I know I agree. I dont like it. My dogs dont have accidents, but they have access to a doggy door. If they didnt, they probably would have accidents, because of the change. I know what I am talking about. I said to him, "You haven't shown RJ what you WANT him to do. That teaches dogs to hide. They think, if he sees poop, I get yelled at.....so....I'll make sure he doesn't see poop. And they go in the corner." Oh well. I said that we will have to agree to disagree and he said, "yeah cuz you know ur wrong." I know I am right. I said yes your way WILL work. But it will also teach your dog to be afraid of you. And he said, he should be. I said no, he should want to obey you, he should want to PLEASE you. When your dog poops in the house and then 5 minutes later you bring the dog to the poop and stick his nose in it and yell at him, all you are doing is satisfying YOUR frusteration, you arent teaching him ANYTHING. he says he will only believe me if I show him that is a PROVEN fact. Like facts, from someone with a PhD or something. Ugh it just bugs me. My brother is such a smart guy, but when it comes to dogs... its just all wrong. Are they gonna stick their kids face in it when their kid has an accident?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Jen.. Do you have a copy of the book, "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson? I woud go and get that book (the new second edition) and have him read pages 98-101. If you could get him to read the whole darn book that would be GREAT, but if you cannot, those pages would show him why what he is doing just terrifies the dog. 

You might also ask him if, when he has kids, if he is going to rub their noses in a pooed in diaper and then set them on the toilet and shut them in the bathroom.... 

I have more I could say, but it would not be acceptable under the Dog forum Posting Policies...


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

> You might also ask him if, when he has kids, if he is going to rub their noses in a pooed in diaper and then set them on the toilet and shut them in the bathroom....


That was exactly my thought. Shoving the dogs nose into poop is such a old standard and yet sooo ugly and ineffective. Let the poor pup out more, keep praising for "job well done" and frankly making sure that they dont roam the house until they understand not to poop in the house would help allot. If you can "make " your brother read up some chapters, that would be great, allot of times people wont- door's shut. Maybe a little bet if you're up to it, to let you potty train and help train the pup in exchange for some labor. Let him watch you work with the pup, let him see that there is another way and let him think about it before he comes around on his own. Trying to force something, usually just gets people angry and keeps the door shut


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Thanks for the suggestion Elana55... Question though. Is she "Dr."? My brother says he won't believe random peoples theories. I said it has been proven time and time again that all he is doing is scaring the dog. He doesnt believe me. Well he thinks that its good for the dog to fear what will happen if he goes in the house. I put it this way, "Your dog is a one year old chihuahua. He wants to PLEASE you. He loves you and your gf. Don't you think he would stop going in the house if he knew it didn't please you. He knows you get mad when you find poop in the house. He doesnt put 2 and 2 together that where he needs to go is outside. Maybe he is thinking, oh wow I get yelled at when there is poop in the bathroom, I better go behind the couch now. If you constantly PRAISED him and gave him the love and affection he has been seeking when he goes OUTSIDE and IGNORE him and clean it quietly when he goes INSIDE- your problem would be gone in a week." His gf's reply was, "I work 10 hours a day I dont have time to tell him good job every time hes goes outside." I didnt say this cuz I didnt want to get into this with her, cuz when me and her argue it gets ugly cuz we're girls lol, but I wanted to say, "Than either crate him when you're gone, or you don't have time for a dog if you can't cimply potty train him."

The part that irked me was when he commented on my dogs. My dogs are the happiest dogs I have EVER met. His lab mix is skittish and hides under tables if you raise your voice, not even at him. My brother claims this is bc he came from the pound at 3 months and he can't fix that. I said yes you can. It will take work, but you don't work with your dogs, you just yell at them when they do something wrong and expect them to know what you WANT from them without actually showing them. Thats why they get so scared when you get mad. They dont KNOW what they did wrong." But he was telling me his dogs dont chew furniture. I said, A. Chance was mistreated and very sick as a puppy which caused him some issues of his own. B. GSD's can be known for chewing. and C. My dogs are HAPPY. Not scared. I can yell at SO and my dogs wont cower and hide. That tells me something.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Jen.. Do you have a copy of the book, "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson? I woud go and get that book (the new second edition) and have him read pages 98-101. If you could get him to read the whole darn book that would be GREAT, but if you cannot, those pages would show him why what he is doing just terrifies the dog.


I doubt that would change his mind. Sounds like he has alreayd made up his mind that people who preach positive reinforcement are full of BS so he'd probably just chalk up that book to the same thing.

Kinda like my mom who told me I need to shove my dog's nose in poop. She goes, I know it's all trendy these days to do just positive reinforcement but you need to do it. I've done it with all my dogs and htye've all housetrained in a month. So, same thing, she just figures all this stuff is some trend and thinks it's total bull. Now, if some one who had model dogs who had lots of experience and had success each time with the method were arguing with her, she might consider it. I might even be able to change her mind now that Aurora is housetrained. But you'll never change your brother's mind right now when your dog isn't (Because he already has decided it's bull and in his mind the fact that your dogs are not succesful is just proof).

Sometimes you just gotta learn to pick your battles.


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

It would break my heart if Ella was afraid of me after having an accident in the house. I never yell at her or get mad at her about it. She does know I am disappointed because she acts all nervous and anxious - but I never scold her. I try to speak firmly etc. My parents used to use that method of "rubbing the dogs face in it" and I always thought that was awful. No dog poops on the floor out of spite. It's either poor training or the dog couldn't hold it anymore.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

tigress said:


> I doubt that would change his mind. Sounds like he has alreayd made up his mind that people who preach positive reinforcement are full of BS so he'd probably just chalk up that book to the same thing.
> 
> Kinda like my mom who told me I need to shove my dog's nose in poop. She goes, I know it's all trendy these days to do just positive reinforcement but you need to do it. I've done it with all my dogs and htye've all housetrained in a month. So, same thing, she just figures all this stuff is some trend and thinks it's total bull. Now, if some one who had model dogs who had lots of experience and had success each time with the method were arguing with her, she might consider it. I might even be able to change her mind now that Aurora is housetrained. But you'll never change your brother's mind right now when your dog isn't (Because he already has decided it's bull and in his mind the fact that your dogs are not succesful is just proof).
> 
> Sometimes you just gotta learn to pick your battles.


Oh my dogs are potty trained. HE thinks they arent but they are. They may have accidents if I took the doggy door out, but who wouldnt if you threw them off schedule. Like if one day you came home from work and all the bathroom doors were locked. You'd be like.. OH NO!



Ella'sMom said:


> It would break my heart if Ella was afraid of me after having an accident in the house. I never yell at her or get mad at her about it. She does know I am disappointed because she acts all nervous and anxious - but I never scold her. I try to speak firmly etc. My parents used to use that method of "rubbing the dogs face in it" and I always thought that was awful. No dog poops on the floor out of spite. It's either poor training or the dog couldn't hold it anymore.


EXACTLY! The poor dog doesnt know WHAT they want. He gets the most attention when he poops in the house. Its negative attention, but its attention. When he goes outside, NOTHING. Oh sure sometimes they throw in a good boy RJ, but when my dogs go outside, to this DAY, I act like they pooped a pile of pure gold! Its the way I can ensure they want to keep going outside to please me. My dogs are coming around now that I work with them more. Oh their lab mix has also bitten people. He almost bit my friend in the face when he was sitting on her lap. He bit my dads friend. And he snarls and shows his teeth to other dogs. Do their dogs sound well rounded to you?


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> My brother says he won't believe random peoples theories. I said it has been proven time and time again that all he is doing is scaring the dog. He doesnt believe me. Well he thinks that its good for the dog to fear what will happen if he goes in the house.


 Since your brother doesn't believe in random people's theories, I would buy Ivan Balabanov's video 1 and 2 "Clear Communication." I wouldn't bother go get into fight with him.

http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=V-SCH-BAL-1
And plan to watch it when you know your brother is going to walk into the room. At least, you and your brother can learn something new somehow. If he is not watching it, then thats fine. Let it go.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

God this just breaks my heart.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

French Ring said:


> Since your brother doesn't believe in random people's theories, I would buy Ivan Balabanov's video 1 and 2 "Clear Communication." I wouldn't bother go get into fight with him.
> 
> http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=V-SCH-BAL-1
> And plan to watch it when you know your brother is going to walk into the room. At least, you and your brother can learn something new somehow. If he is not watching it, then thats fine. Let it go.


That guy looks interesting, thanks.



kelliope said:


> God this just breaks my heart.


Tell me about it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

*Jean Donaldson *is a native of Montreal, Canada. She graduated from Vanier College in 1982 with a DEC in Music and Psychology and then went on to study at McGill University where she graduated in 1987 with degrees in both Music and Comparative Psychology (differences among species in cognitive and learning ability). She began in 1975 to compete in dog sports such as Obedience, Tracking and Flyball, winning numerous titles such as OTCh, TDX and HIT.

Also the same thing is said by _Patricia McConnell _*Phd* on page 77 of her book, "Control Unleashed"

Page 77
"It also helps tremendously to give your dog a treat every time that she goes outside - right after she goes, not after she trots back to the house. I’m always surprised at how resistant so many owners are to doing this. Once our dogs are no longer puppies, we seem to have some sense of entitlement that grow-up dogs should go outside, because “they should know better.”But, if they’re going to the bathroom in the house, you can either get upset about it and put on a threat display as any agitated primate would - scaring the heck out of your dog in the process - or you can get over it and give him a treat for going outside. Trust me, the latter works a lot better. " 

and from pages 117-118

"I'm using anthropomorphic examples here to bring home a point, although there's a danger of misinterpreting your dog's behavior by putting yourself in your dog's place. A dog owner who assumes that his dog defecated in the living room because she's "mad" at him for leaving her alone during the day is forgetting that dogs are fascinated by feces. Dogs spend long periods of time checking out poop, sniffing it, and sometimes eating it. The Navajo word for dog is something like "thlee Shaw" and means "eater of horse poop." It makes no sense that your dog would offer you such a wonderful present if she were mad at you. Some people think that their dog is defecating on the rug to spite them, so they yell at the dog, perhaps rubbing her nose in it or, worse, physically harming her. Dogs who are treated this way cower in terror (not guilt) when their owners return home but are much more likely to defecate on the rug out of nervousness or fear in the house, because who knows what that maniac will do next time he comes home. "

*Patricia McConnell, PhD *received her Ph.D. in Zoology from the University of Wisconsin-Madison researching dog behavior and communication between professional trainers and working domestic animals. She is currently the owner of Dog's Best Friend Ltd., and Adjunct Associate Professor in Zoology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, teaching "The Biology and Philosophy of Human/Animal Relationships."

Co-host of Wisconsin Public Radio's "Calling All Pets," Dr. McConnell gives advice about behavior problems on numerous radio stations across the country. She is the behavior columnist for the BARk magazine ("the New Yorker of Dog Magazines") and a Consulting Editor for the Journal of Comparative Psychology. She is the author of the much acclaimed book "The Other End of the Leash," as well as a highly respected series of booklets on the treatment of behavioral problems. McConnell is a sought after seminar speaker, giving seminars and speeches about canine and feline behavior around the world.

I am sorry your Brother owns ANY dogs. He is abusing them. You know it, you have told him this and he is, like so many other simple and close minded people, "always right."


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> *Jean Donaldson *is a native of Montreal, Canada. She graduated from Vanier College in 1982 with a DEC in Music and Psychology and then went on to study at McGill University where she graduated in 1987 with degrees in both Music and Comparative Psychology (differences among species in cognitive and learning ability). She began in 1975 to compete in dog sports such as Obedience, Tracking and Flyball, winning numerous titles such as OTCh, TDX and HIT.
> 
> Also the same thing is said by _Patricia McConnell _*Phd* on page 77 of her book, "Control Unleashed"
> 
> ...


Have I told you lately that I love you?

Copy-paste-email-brother-HA!

This is what my email said right before I copied and pasted what you quoted from the book:

I'm not trying to make an argument here. I am just telling you that if there is one thing I know- it's dogs. My dogs are not 100% trained, I agree with you. Chance was also malnourished, abused, and given a 40% chance of SURVIVING, so yes I babied him, and yes he had separation anxiety and ate things because I didn't crate train him. You have 2 very easy going breeds. Labs and chihuahua's are one of the top few breeds for first time dog owners. German Shepherds and beagles are not because of the amount of training and how stubborn these breeds can have. RJ and Rossi love you guys, of course, I am just trying to HELP you with RJ going in the house because he doesn't know what you WANT him to or he'd go outside all the time. The following is from someone who wrote a book, (which has been given beaming reviews,) and has a PhD in zoology. If you don't want to believe me, fine. But believe her.


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

> You might also ask him if, when he has kids, if he is going to rub their noses in a pooed in diaper and then set them on the toilet and shut them in the bathroom....


That is ridiculous. Dogs are not kids . . .they are not people . . .and they should not be treated as such. They are dogs and should be treated like dogs.

Jean Donaldson also trained her dog to hump her leg. That's just the type of person I want giving me advice on my dogs.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

5dogsandahuman said:


> That is ridiculous. Dogs are not kids . . .they are not people . . .and they should not be treated as such. They are dogs and should be treated like dogs.
> 
> Jean Donaldson also trained her dog to hump her leg. That's just the type of person I want giving me advice on my dogs.


My dog Bailey will hump your leg as you are sleeping. She's 5 years old and spayed when she was 1.

Do you really think that a dog will put 2 and 2 togehter when you're pushing its face in its own feces? Do you think its sitting there thinking oh wow i better not poop in the house, mom gets mad. If dogs arent kids, arent humans like you state, why would you possibly think they could reason like that?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

5dogsandahuman said:


> That is ridiculous. Dogs are not kids . . .they are not people . . .and they should not be treated as such. They are dogs and should be treated like dogs.
> 
> Jean Donaldson also trained her dog to hump her leg. That's just the type of person I want giving me advice on my dogs.


The quotes were not Jeans. They were from Patricia McConnell becuase the OP said her brother would not take advice from anyone less than a doctorate. Jean Donaldson says the same thing. 

I have done what they have suggested for 27 years and I never read either book until this past year. My dogs were house trained quickly and efficiently using this method and accidents only occurred if the dog was sick. 

No, dogs are not kids. The point of my original comment was to show the cruelty in what he is doing to "train" a dog. 

I would no more support abusing a child to get the child toilet trained than I would support abusing a dog to get the dog house broken. 

Sadly there are parents who do abuse their children to toilet train them just as there are dog owners, like the OP's Brother, who abuse their dogs to house break them.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

My parents always house trained their dogs by shoving their noses in their accidents. Lucky has had accidents frequetnly her entire life, shoving her nose in it never helped anything. With management and praising Lloyd when he went outside, he was house trained in a few days and has only ever had 2 accidents, one was the first day we had him and weren't paying close enough attention, the second, he was sick.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Its just sad cuz its tried and true and still so many people are screwing up their dogs.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Um... Patricia McConnell didn't write Control Unleashed. She wrote "For the Love of A Dog" and "The OTher End of the Leash" (which is what that quote is from, I believe.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> Um... Patricia McConnell didn't write Control Unleashed. She wrote "For the Love of A Dog" and "The OTher End of the Leash" (which is what that quote is from, I believe.


OH MY GOSH! YOU ARE CORRECT!! I AM SOOO SORRY!!! 

See, this is what happens when you stay up until 11:00 at night watching some silly thing on TV, then get up at 5:00AM because it is light out and the cats just HAVE to be up and so do you! 

Yes, I stand 100% Corrected on the title. Leslie McDevitt wrote "Control Unleashed" which is NOT the book I quoted.

I quoted Patricia McConnel in "The Other End of the Leash."
At lease I got the "Leash" part right... 

Geeze loueeze.. No Click or reward for that one.. I am going off to my crate...


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

ELANA!!!! BAD POSTER!!!!! Im gonna lock you outside and shove your face in that BOOK!


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

You know, old habits really do die hard. Until now, I always thought that's what you were supposed to do, until I did reasearch before getting a dog.

One thing to try- I have found justifying it as outdated, cruel whatever doesn't work. BUT I have said "well, dogs LOOOOVE poop- they eat their own and all others- so really putting their nose in it is like a treat"- I got a couple of "oh, that makes sense!"


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> ELANA!!!! BAD POSTER!!!!! Im gonna lock you outside and shove your face in that BOOK!


Can I now pee submissively on your new rug too?


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

> No, dogs are not kids. The point of my original comment was to show the cruelty in what he is doing to "train" a dog.
> 
> I would no more support abusing a child to get the child toilet trained than I would support abusing a dog to get the dog house broken.
> 
> Sadly there are parents who do abuse their children to toilet train them just as there are dog owners, like the OP's Brother, who abuse their dogs to house break them.


If I go by what most of you are saying, dogs like poop and therefore shoving their nose in it shouldn't be a punishment. What I was pointing out though, is that dogs are not kids, therefore if you are going to give an example to someone regarding dogs, you should not draw parallels to children . . .or humans at all for that matter . . .because dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs in the first place. If you treat your dog like a dog, he will understand what is expected of him and be more stable.



> Do you really think that a dog will put 2 and 2 togehter when you're pushing its face in its own feces? Do you think its sitting there thinking oh wow i better not poop in the house, mom gets mad. If dogs arent kids, arent humans like you state, why would you possibly think they could reason like that?


I don't think dogs have the mental capabilities of humans . . .however, dogs can draw parallels and learn. I never said you should rub the dog's nose in it . . .all I said was that it's stupid to use the comparison that was used. You should praise your dog for going outside, but it should also be corrected for going inside . . .unless this is a behavior you want to continue. You should also be aware of your dog's needs and give the dog access to someplace to use the bathroom if you do not have a dog door. Dogs learn quickly if trained properly.

And as far as your dog humping anything, I would have put a stop to that immediately. That's a disgusting and embarrassing habit that should never be allowed, let alone encouraged or trained into a dog.


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

good post 5dogs. 

A dog is not a kid or human or any other creature at all so comparing the to shows that you have no idea how dog learn. DOgs are dogs. Dogs learn by simple rules; praise for doing right, and correction for doing wrong. people are the ones who make it complicated.

All the authors listed are idiots plain and simple. It is easy to prove them as idiots. I could care less about their "degrees" in "animal behavior" and "operant conditioning" and clicker training where it was used on whales and dolphins which i far from training a dog. Degrees are just a piece of paper I can light on fire or do whatever with. They don't show me anything. I want to see their dog work. I want it to work in a very distracting and stressful enviroment with no lead and collar on and obey every command the first time it is commanded, regardless of how they train it. You want the results their method produces then you use their methods, no more no less.

dogs are also not as stupid as people make them out to be. They are fully capable of understanding what they are corrected for. I would probably not shove my dog's nose in his pee or dung, but he would be corrected and taken outside, but the dog needs correction some way or another. And the dog needs praise for going outside. not bribery like using a treat. Just praise and petting.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Oh I HEAR you girl!! My hubby and I had a disgruntlement this evening about dog training too. He was working sit and down stays with the new girl, and she just was not getting it today (just a bit more distracted), well, instead of remaining calm, he got all keyed up...so of course, she fed off the frustration, and not only started getting up, but started running away from him when he went to get her back to her stay position...and lets just say he wasn't being 'kind' in setting her back to her 'stay position'!!! She wasn't being hurt, but she was being scared...but he just doesn't get this concept...that a fearful dog isn't a learning dog. 

I told him he needs to control his emotions, and especially needs to 'stick to it' and end on a good note, with the dog; cause he wound up quitting; which I then took the dog, did some of the exercises, with only ONE break out of 4 tries, and handed her back to him, and told him to try again! 

It's so crazy how people can be, because during the first couple weeks we have had her, hubby was amazed at how smart she was, and after just a few days of 'distractedness' she is too stupid to learn and he gives up on her...go figure...He's also slacking on keeping her on the leash...and she does not have an extremely reliable recall...which HE KNOWS full well...but he is so stubbornly set in his thinking that he truly thinks no matter how much I tell him or how much he reads a page in a book, that the dog won't learn how to come off lead unless it is off lead!!!! I keep reminding him what happened to his last dog, because of his sometimes unreliable recall (it was most unreliable for him)...but he refuses to listen and learn  I will still randomly put Sophie's 50 foot long line on, just to ensure her recall 'stays' strong, especially at the parks, and she has a great recall.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

slydogges said:


> good post 5dogs.
> 
> A dog is not a kid or human or any other creature at all so comparing the to shows that you have no idea how dog learn. DOgs are dogs. Dogs learn by simple rules; praise for doing right, and correction for doing wrong. people are the ones who make it complicated..


Actually, it has been proven over and over across the face of many species.... and it is not complicated at all. Really it is not. Reward for success and always set the dog up to succeed.



slydogges said:


> All the authors listed are idiots plain and simple. It is easy to prove them as idiots. I could care less about their "degrees" in "animal behavior" and "operant conditioning" and clicker training where it was used on whales and dolphins which i far from training a dog. Degrees are just a piece of paper I can light on fire or do whatever with. They don't show me anything. I want to see their dog work. I want it to work in a very distracting and stressful enviroment with no lead and collar on and obey every command the first time it is commanded, regardless of how they train it. You want the results their method produces then you use their methods, no more no less..


Jean Donaldson's dogs compete in Agility (very distracting environment and off leash). McConell's dogs herd sheep.. and that is also off leash and in a distracting environment. 

*Education* in any field does do one thing for you.. it *opens up your mind* to new ideas or ways that are different. Whether you agree or disagree with those ideas, you can learn to accept that they do exist. It also teaches you to give new ideas a TRY b4 discarding them if they might apply to what you do.. and maybe _just maybe_, they might work for you beyond anything you could even imagine. 

No, a degree and education does not necessarily equate to expertise, but it can go a long way toward shortening the process to gain expertise. The next time you need medical care or your dog needs a vet, I suggest you take yourself or your dog to some back alley self taught doctor.. because lets face it.. those degrees in medicine (human or vet) "don't show me anything"

A closed mind is one to be viewed only from the outside... *sigh*



slydogges said:


> dogs are also not as stupid as people make them out to be. They are fully capable of understanding what they are corrected for. I would probably not shove my dog's nose in his pee or dung, but he would be corrected and taken outside, but the dog needs correction some way or another. And the dog needs praise for going outside. not bribery like using a treat. Just praise and petting.


FWIW, not knowing ANYTHING about the work of the two authors prior to last year, I had dogs for 27 years and they were well trained dogs. I used the methods for house breaking that are outlined by both those authors and in 27 years I had dogs that were quickly and efficiently house trained (no rubbing their noses in poop and no correction for mistakes indoors). These authors put into words exactly what I have been doing and succeeding at doing.

In the last 27 years and 8 dogs, I can count on one hand the number of accidents any of my dogs had indoors and all of those were due to the dog having an illness. 

How did I EVER manage to pull THAT off w/o a correction? I actually found that by NOT ALLOWING THE DOG TO FAIL and always rewarding the dog for success, I had no failures. The introduction of a marker and food along with petting praise has increased the speed with which I have attained results ten fold. 

Recently, I have read the academic work regarding dog training, which parallels how I have house trained my dogs. I have carried this over to obedience training.. the business of reward for a job well done and trying to set the dog up for success.. and the results in my current dog are often beyond my willdest dreams. 

This does not mean I never correct my dog. I do. I just do it differently than I used to and it is working. I could go back to what I used to do, but what I do now, with the clicker and food, is doing the job (not a bribe BTW that is luring, but that's right.. you already KNOW what I do doesn't work).

In the end, my dog gets compliments on her good training (I am the one who wants it better than it is.. it is MY desire to perfect it). My dog is happy and we are having fun. Her training is progressing and I have stepped up to the challenge of learning something new and different that I previously had not considered as a good course of training. 

As I gain experience and skill in this type of training, I expect to become much better at gaining results in a timely manner. The current training method I have adopted is what I use first and it is what I will use as long as it is working. 

If it was not working, I could always go back to what I used to do.. but it IS working. 

The Academics are correct.



5dogsandahuman said:


> you should not draw parallels to children . . .or humans at all for that matter . . .because dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs in the first place. If you treat your dog like a dog, he will understand what is expected of him and be more stable.


OK.. Treating a dog like a human and expecting human attributes does, indeed, cause issues. Disney has done more to promote anthropomorphism than any other single entity, to the detriment of our relationships with dogs. 



5dogsandahuman said:


> I don't think dogs have the mental capabilities of humans . . .however, dogs can draw parallels and learn.


I do not believe they truly can. This statement expects the dog to infer.. and that is a human trait.. so I think this statement expects a dog to behave like a human which contradicts the statement of remembering to treat a dog like a dog. 



5dogsandahuman said:


> And as far as your dog humping anything, I would have put a stop to that immediately. That's a disgusting and embarrassing habit that should never be allowed, let alone encouraged or trained into a dog.


Ah.. but from your first statement, dogs are dogs and not humans. 

Therefore, dogs, as part of how they are, tend to hump things including each other, as part of their social process in addition to the way they actually breed when a female is in heat. 

Dogs do not find "humping" disgusting or embarassing. Only humans find this disgusting or ebarrassing. Therefore, by _expecting_ a dog to _understand the moral implications surrounding humping_, you have violated your first premise that _"..dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs.."_

I do agree that you can train a dog to not display humping activity, but do realize that when you are extringuishing this behavior you are going against the nature of how dogs socialize, human 'embarassment' aside. It is also something I would NOT encourage my own dog to do. 

I might also add that having been around a lot of animals for a lot of years, the sight of animals humping is neither disgusting or embarassing to me... it is simply another behavior. 

Not to say that every social behavior dogs exhibit toward each other is acceptable.. it is not. They also bite each other, sometimes roughly, to communicate and we don't allow that either.

PS: Where is Curbside Prophet? He has a lot more knoweldge and expertise that I do!


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Can I now pee submissively on your new rug too?


haha go right ahead



5dogsandahuman said:


> If I go by what most of you are saying, dogs like poop and therefore shoving their nose in it shouldn't be a punishment. What I was pointing out though, is that dogs are not kids, therefore if you are going to give an example to someone regarding dogs, you should not draw parallels to children . . .or humans at all for that matter . . .because dogs ARE NOT human and do not behave, respond, or communicate in the same manner. People drawing these parallels and trying to treat their dogs as though they are people is why most people have difficulties with their dogs in the first place. If you treat your dog like a dog, he will understand what is expected of him and be more stable.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will not correct my dog unless I catch my dog IN the act. It is the only way I can be sure that he knows what he is being corrected for. If I come home and find poop, Im not going to bring my dog to it and correct him. Why would that make ANY sense?

I dont set my dogs up for failure. My brother said his dog can be locked inside for 12 hrs and not have an accident. OUT OF FEAR! I cant go 12 hours without having an accident, why should I expect my dog, who drinks more water than I do, to be able to? My dogs always have full access to outside via doggy door. If they have an accident, it needs to be corrected, because they shouldnt, having the door. If I had them locked inside for 12 hours, WHY in the WORLD would i correct them for MY stupidity?

My dogs does not randomly hump people. My boy beagle humps to show alpha status. My female does this when you stick your leg out and say hump, (from having a previous male owner who thought it was funny.) I simply explain to guests that Kody is a dog, and he is showing he is boss, and remove Kody and say enough. I dont find it disgusting, and my guests understand because they know dogs are dogs. Now if I had kids humping each other, I might step in sooner


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

i'm not talking about other species. I'm talking about dogs. dogs are not whales, dolphins, rabbits, or whatever else you want to try to compare them to in order to believe this "positive reinforcement" crap.


show me a video of your dogs working in obedience with no lead or collar in a very distracting enviroment, obeying your first command, every time you command, with no treats in sight. I will show you mine. If your method of training is reliable in the real world that we live in I would like to see it.

Just because you are certified to do something doesn't mean you're qualified. I could get mister just got my degree or mister I've been doing this since I was old enough to walk to come help me with something. I'll choose experience over a silly degree any day. 

here is my videos so far. I will be adding more though:

sly on lawn mower:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjLhU5KtIrc

600ft. recall:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IptUgNjeWys

600ft. Down-stay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLG158V0ShI

In all these videos my dogs had no equipment on whatsoever. My dogs are bonded to me and are driven to work for me not some stupid treat or toy. The stress was the distance, the time they were at that distance and the "blizzard" going on around them. there was about 2 feet of snow on the ground.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Yea, but I noticed that you repeatedly said, good boy and good girl, after giving the command as a way to encourage them to continue coming to you. I don't have to do that when I call my dog. He comes when I say the command once and I don't praise him till he gets to me.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Durbkat said:


> Yea, but I noticed that you repeatedly said, good boy and good girl, after giving the command as a way to encourage them to continue coming to you. I don't have to do that when I call my dog. He comes when I say the command once and I don't praise him till he gets to me.


Tehehee...glad you caught that too...

Umm...do you show these dogs? Because you should know that ANY praise before the judge gives a release is a penalty...the dog is to come without praise, encouragement, or more than one command...That your dogs come from that far away still doesn't show me much about how well trained your dogs are...most loved family pets will come from that far away, especially with all that encouragement. The lawn mower video actually appalled me, because that is such a dangerous place for any dog to be...that is no place for a dog I don't care how 'well trained he is'; if the moter is running he should be at a safe distance away from the mower, not on it. 

I don't care how well trained a dog is, he will not be perfect every single day of his life...to expect that is to expect him to poop gold, and so far I haven't found a dog who has pooped gold yet! I don't expect my dogs to be 100% perfect 100% of the time...we all have our good and bad days; true when training is complete, there are more good than bad, but still...

As long as my girl can compete in obedience, rally, and utility when we are there, I don't care; if we don't make 'perfect' scores, oh well, it's still fun...because we have worked hard to get to a place where we can compete in those events. As long as she is a calm therapy dog no matter who she is 'ministering' to, then I have accomplished what I have wanted there too.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Not only where you encrouaging them to come by constantly yelling "good boy good girl good dog" they also did not perform a proper recall. They should have ended up sitting in front of you for that to have been a recall. Most dogs that like their owners will come running to them after their owner has just left them at such a distance.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yeah.. as the others have said. BTW, the environment for both U Tube examples is *not a "highly distracting environment.." *no matter the weather (which wasn't all that bad IMO.. had my dog do the same in much worse). A highly distracting environment would be one where there are mulitple other dogs (including strange dogs that run up to your dog as he/she is in a stay or recall) and lots of people/kids etc. or one with lots of livestock around (not livestock on your home farm... but in a different location). I can get my dog to do every one of the things you have shown on a farm at those distances.. with the so called "distractions(????!!)" you show.

I have two recalls. One is "come here" and Atka comes running and sits in front of me. That recall is my every day recall. I say it once.. anywhere.. and she comes barreling (I don't HAVE a video camera or I would show you).

Then there is my "really Reliable" recall for emegency situations. That word is "NOW!" and I say it ONE TIME and she comes FLYING to me.. and that is no matter what.. I swear she would come thru a wall of fire to get to me when I say NOW. 

The recall was taught by using a clicker and treats or a toy or, as you so intelligently say it: "some stupid treat or toy." 

She will come to me when I call her if she sees a deer (she will also LIE DOWN on a whistle or hand signal if she sees a deer or any other thing of interest.. taught to her for herding sheep). She will come to me when I call her if there are people around. She will come to me when called at the park, in the yard, in all kinds of weather and over, under, or around obstacles. 

Oh yeah.. and I taught her to come w/o a rope on her, and w/o a choke or pinch collar and w/o a fence in place. I simply used Operant Conditioning and classical conditioning and those "stupid treats and toys." 

BTW she also is learning to go to the refrigerator and get me a beer at the end of those long hot days we are sure to have this summer. 

I have been trying to teach her to poop gold, but so far that has been a complete failure. I may have to go to a harsh method to get that one... 

I can also get it done in a distracting place like I have described above. 
AND I trained it using "stupid toys and treats..." 

Ah well, your mind is closed.... and this discussion is pointless. I knew a fellow years ago.. he could barely read. He had an 8th grade education and was proud of it and a mind like a steel trap.. Completely Closed.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Boy I'm not hearing any love here. I myself was getting worried about slydogges. A lot of sniffles and heavy breathing. I wasn't sure she was going to make the 600 ft. Now let's look at this differently and objectively. I would hazard a % guess and say that 75% of dogs in America could not be left on a 600 ft stay. What I don't understand is the hostility in slydogges post. Eveybody can use whatever method that turns them on to train their dogs, why the anger against positive. I'm a 70% negative old school trainer and I think, whether I use some positive methods or not that they are a step in right direction. With amateurs trainers there is much less abuse. I do have to agree with elana55 really was not much distraction there.


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## whimsy (Aug 19, 2007)

I would hate to call your brother a jerk to his face but as I read your post that was the first thing I uttered under my breath.
Ask him if rubbing the dog's nose in poop and locking him outdoors lessens the mess? Why not save his energy and just clean up the mess? Maybe he needs to put enzyme cleaner on the spot to make sure the dog can't smell the accident and use the same spot again. If he would spend only a few days taking the dog out on a regular schedule and praise and treat when the dog goes outside he would have a happy houetrained dog. I feel sorry for any dog that your brother owns, I consider him to be cruel and heartless to do this.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> I have been trying to teach her to poop gold, but so far that has been a complete failure. I may have to go to a harsh method to get that one....


hehehe- all ya gotta do is teach them to EAT gold- then they'll poop it!



whimsy said:


> I would hate to call your brother a jerk to his face but as I read your post that was the first thing I uttered under my breath.
> Ask him if rubbing the dog's nose in poop and locking him outdoors lessens the mess? Why not save his energy and just clean up the mess? Maybe he needs to put enzyme cleaner on the spot to make sure the dog can't smell the accident and use the same spot again. If he would spend only a few days taking the dog out on a regular schedule and praise and treat when the dog goes outside he would have a happy houetrained dog. I feel sorry for any dog that your brother owns, I consider him to be cruel and heartless to do this.


Yeah... he is a really nice guy. SO smart too. Moved up to head of his whole building in the roughly 3 years he has worked there. His one problem is how stubborn he is. HIS way is the RIGHT way. He deleted the email I sent him. He still thinks he is right. My dogs may not be perfect, but they are NOT scared of me. To have a dog obey you out of fear, IMO is a total power trip. I want my dogs to obey me because they WANT to. Because its FUn and they get PRAISED when they listen. I dont want them to FEAR what will happen if they dont listen.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Besides all that, they get real disappointed when they offer something and you DON'T CLICK and reward.. because you have just upped the ante and want more. Does Kody look at you like you are freaking NUTZ for not giving him a treat? Atka will yap at me.. and then she sort of looks around and makes this high pitched, low barking thing that, for all the world, sounds like mumbling. 

I think she is saying, "what is WRONG with her. The LAST time I did that she clicked... Stoopid owner..." It gets pretty amusing. 

OR when we try something new and I am clicking and she does what I don't want I will conversationally say, "thats not it" and she will yap at me.. like "What do you MEAN by THAT'S not IT!??" 

Honest.. one thing the NON clicker people are missing is the fun. It is REALLY fun to do this and see how the dog reacts once they are operant. Dogs are very smart and will do anything to train you to click the clicker! I swear they think we are the ones being trained.. and that is why it works so well. 

This past week I have been working on the No Jumping thing (my other thread LOL) and in that time.. meeting all those NEW people, she has made a stronger connection to ME. It is so much fun!

I have some interfering things going on this weekend but I have to get her back to the Skate Board Park. We might need to get her a used skate board. She thinks that is fun.. and the kids LOVE it. She will probably do something with it like both front feet on and wheel around on it. 

BTW How is Chance doing with Jumping? We have started that in Agility and last Monday night she was very successful at it.. finding her take off spot and turning on landing! Lots more to go before she is an expert but she is having fun!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

LOL Elana I see the same thing. Sadie now constantly runs up to me and lays down, and when I don't click and treat she cocks her head to the side - "Mom, what the heck? I'm doing it!".

Several times after I have said "That's not in" when working on a cue, she has barked at me and stared. "Yes it IS it, now give me that treat."


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> I'm a 70% negative old school trainer and I think, whether I use some positive methods or not that they are a step in right direction.


It was not long ago you were 90% negative, so there's still hope yet! 



wvasko said:


> What I don't understand is the hostility in slydogges post.


It's simple, he/she is ignorant about learning theory. So narrow mindedness begets what?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It was not long ago you were 90% negative, so there's still hope yet!
> 
> 
> 
> It's simple, he/she is ignorant about learning theory. So narrow mindedness begets what?


CP
I might have been exaggerating a tad with the 70%. I don't want to ruin my image. I understand your narrow mindedness statement but the anger towards people using a gentler method of training still irks me and I am not even a people person.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It was not long ago you were 90% negative, so there's still hope yet!


I suspect that WVasko may actually be a lot more positive than he realizes or we know. 

Have you ever watched a truly gifted dog trainer work? I have.. and something seems to happen between those people and dogs (same thing with a truly gifted horse trainer and I have watched one of those train). I am beginning to suspect that WV may have come up thru the ranks and is one of those people who connects with dogs. 

I always believe "science first" but on the occasions I have had the absolute pleasure of watching a gifted trainer work with an animal, I know there is something else that they have that I do not have. It is a subtle something that you cannot learn in school.. it is there or not. A talent. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> It's simple, he/she is ignorant about learning theory. So narrow mindedness begets what?


It never ceases to amaze me the amount of this that abounds in animal training. 

Some of the most barbaric things I have ever experienced I have seen used on horses.. and it goes on to this day. It matters not that others have shown a better way.. it matters not that someone can get on a horse, bridle-less and saddle-less and ride a perfect reining pattern.. Nope.. they still have to resort to war bonnets and brutal devices to get a horse to do what they want. 

The barbarism and narrow thinking in animal training to this day astounds me... (I am not accusing any one on this Forum of that).

Why not TRY some of this stuff? It is fun! If it doesn't work, you STILL can go and do things the way you have b4.. I mean.. what have you LOST? $1.50 for a clicker and $2 worth of hotdgs you cut up to make treats??? A week of effort? A dog taht worships the ground you walk on??? WHAT have you LOST???? 

And then.. WHAT IF IT WORKS and it works so well that you cannot believe it?


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Besides all that, they get real disappointed when they offer something and you DON'T CLICK and reward.. because you have just upped the ante and want more. Does Kody look at you like you are freaking NUTZ for not giving him a treat? Atka will yap at me.. and then she sort of looks around and makes this high pitched, low barking thing that, for all the world, sounds like mumbling.
> 
> I think she is saying, "what is WRONG with her. The LAST time I did that she clicked... Stoopid owner..." It gets pretty amusing.
> 
> ...


haha so true. Its the clicker confused look. Kody will offer me anything, its cute. If I am holdng the clicker and I have him sit, and he sits and I forget to click, then he waves, then he asks, then he tries to shake. Its pretty funny. Like.. "Okay I usually get a click for that...maybe I misunderstood... did you say ask?? no...hmm" And I say "wrong" if its not what I am asking for and I get the look that SCREAMS "WELL THAN MAKE IT RIGHT!" lol

Chance is jumping but since the move we havent done it much, Kody lights up when I bring out the poles though! I have to get Chance back on leash and work with him more.. hmm Im off tomorrow, new goal!



Elana55 said:


> Why not TRY some of this stuff? It is fun! If it doesn't work, you STILL can go and do things the way you have b4.. I mean.. what have you LOST? $1.50 for a clicker and $2 worth of hotdgs you cut up to make treats??? A week of effort? A dog taht worships the ground you walk on??? WHAT have you LOST????
> 
> And then.. WHAT IF IT WORKS and it works so well that you cannot believe it?


The funny thing is that if my brother tries this way its going to have one of two effects. 1.It will work and he will be amazed. 2. it wont work and he can go back to his ways.

If I try his way it will either 1. work and my dogs will be terrified of me. or 2. wont work and my dogs will be terrified of me..

Which would you rather?


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

> OK.. Treating a dog like a human and expecting human attributes does, indeed, cause issues. Disney has done more to promote anthropomorphism than any other single entity, to the detriment of our relationships with dogs.


I will agree that Disney portrays dogs as very human in nature . . .but Disney is not training these dogs. Kind of off topic.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman View Post
> I don't think dogs have the mental capabilities of humans . . .however, dogs can draw parallels and learn.
> I do not believe they truly can. This statement expects the dog to infer.. and that is a human trait.. so I think this statement expects a dog to behave like a human which contradicts the statement of remembering to treat a dog like a dog.


This does not contradict anything I said. A dog that knows how to sit and knows what is acceptable in one situation can draw a parallel to when they are in new situations and know what is acceptable or not. When I first started working my dogs in longer distance stays, they knew to stay despite the distance or distractions because I taught them to stay in other locations at a closer distance. I still treat my dogs like dogs while I expect them to perform in a manner that is appropriate. Another example would be that I give my dogs chew toys . . .they know to chew on these toys but on nothing else. If I put them in a new environment they would know not to chew anything other than the chew toys even though they were in new surroundings with other new things . . .possibly even tasty food things . . .around them. That is drawing parallels. Otherwise I would have to "proof" the dog in every situation . . .and I would make the excuse, "well, I haven't trained her not to chew on the chair leg at my mom's house . . .only at mine."


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by 5dogsandahuman View Post
> And as far as your dog humping anything, I would have put a stop to that immediately. That's a disgusting and embarrassing habit that should never be allowed, let alone encouraged or trained into a dog.
> Ah.. but from your first statement, dogs are dogs and not humans.
> ...


Never did I say that dogs don't hump nor did I say that it wasn't a part of normal dog behavior. What I said is that it is disgusting and embarrassing to have a dog that humps things. I would NEVER teach my dog to do that. It may be viewed as acceptable behavior in the dog world, but the dog is living in my world and I therefore have the right to say what is acceptable and what is not. Like you said, biting is also a normal dog behavior, but under normal circumstances, this is not something that is acceptable. I am not treating my dogs as humans by not allowing them to hump, bite, dig, fight, etc . . .I am treating them as trained dogs that have boundaries and rules. 

And no, humping as a part of reproduction is nothing that I'm worried about. Having a dog randomly hump another at the park or your friend's leg when they come to visit is. And despite what you might say, NO ONE would want their leg humped by a dog no matter how much they understand dog behavior.

Also, as far as Sly praising her dogs when they are recalled, those of you on here who are so called PR believers should be jumping for joy at that! Who gives a crap if she praised her dogs when they came? In the real world I'm sure you would do whatever it took to get your dog back . . .only stupid AKC rules say you shouldn't praise your dog on recall . . .and I hate to break it to you, AKC is NOT real life! And, as far as the dog having to sit once it is recalled to you, that is another stupid AKC rule. Why would you care if your dog sat in front of you if it came back? All I have to do is tell my dog to sit. All Sly would have to do would be to start telling her dogs to sit after every recall and they would do it. If she were training the dogs to compete in sport or AKC, she might need to work on that . . .but in the real world none of that matters.

For those of you who are attacking Sly for saying that she did not have her dogs in a "highly distracting environment" . . .distractions can be of all shapes/sizes/and types. You can completely stress a dog and cause a high amount of distraction without having other things around. YOU can be the distraction . . .outside distractions are not the only kind that exist. The weather and distance and time spent in the stay are all levels of difficulty as well. There are nights when I train that I am the only distraction my dogs have . . .and then there are days when we visit places like Lowes and I have people/carts/machines and all kinds of other things whizzing by them . . .just as Sly had her dog on the tractor with her (which by the way is not any more dangerous than having a dog not buckled up in a car) to create an environment with varying types of distractions.

And, before you tell someone they are closed minded for not trying the methods first to see if they work . . .you should probably find out the background to see if they have. I tried everything from clickers and treats with PR training to e-collars for retriever training and was told to either keep my dogs separate or put one down because of aggression by people who have "been successful in highly distracting environments" and have had "years of experience training dogs" and "certifications and degrees" but did not find anything that worked until I found the methods that Sly is using. Maybe you should ask her about her experience with PR training methods before you call her closed minded for not "accepting" them . . .she's probably just as frustrated as I am that half the people on these sites are getting advice that isn't going to help and will most likely hurt them and cause them to do nothing but make excuses for their dogs' behavior.


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

Thanks 5dogs. 

That is a real world recall. I could care less about what the silly AKC says. he came to me. I didn't ask for anything else other than that and they both performed. I was praising because they were doing the command I gave them. You all really have do have no idea how to train a dog. The mere fact of being at that distance away from me, his master, was a lot of stress.

I do 4H dog club where they do the akc stuff. My dog is the best one there. He can do all the stupid finish, sit right in front crap. I hardly ever do it as I could care less if he did it in the real world or not. He comes that is all that is important as that is the command I gave. I will praise my dog when he does something, I could care less if I loose points They don't matter when your dog is going after a ball you threw and it bounces in the street and you happen to call your dog to you. I guarantee you that you would be praising up a storm as that just saved your dog's life.

I demand perfection. If you don't demand it, you will never get it.

yes, I did use the PR methods you all talk about. You know what one person WHO SHOWS IN AKC told me? PUT HIM DOWN. PROBLEM CAN'T BE SOLVED. he was aggressive towards other dogs. now I can work him with out lead or collar around 20 dogs, which most had the same issues, with no problem. Put a Gl on for the pulling and lunging was what one trainer told me. he fought it so much he was foaming at the mouth, rubbed his nose raw( after a year there is still a scar there), and it taught him nothing. It was a waste of money. I also was not told that it could hurt your dog's neck. 

here are some articles I found that expose PR training for what it really is :

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/real_training.html

http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/plan_b.htm

http://www3.sympatico.ca/tsuro/_articles/balance.html

and it is no more dangerous for my dog to be on a lwan mower than it is for me to be on one. he enjoyed that ride. Didn't really want to get off.


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

Good articles Sly. Too bad half the people who read them will disregard what he says because he only has 20 years of experience . . .and I didn't see a degree in psychology or animal behaviorism.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

slydogges said:


> Thanks 5dogs.
> 
> That is a real world recall. I could care less about what the silly AKC says. he came to me. I didn't ask for anything else other than that and they both performed. I was praising because they were doing the command I gave them. You all really have do have no idea how to train a dog. The mere fact of being at that distance away from me, his master, was a lot of stress.
> 
> ...


slydogges
I see nothing wrong with the training program you are using and mine as I have stated earlier is 70% negative. I even checked out your articles and could find nothing to argue about because to train a dog professionally I find that balance is necessary to get a proper job within an allotted time period. Owners will not allow me to keep a dog for 6 months, too expensive. Only difficulty I see is your not very forgiving of other training programs. You come across as kind of harsh and angry. Of course this is your right and if you think this is necessary to get your points across go for it.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I never said I trained my dog to hump. She is a dog. She won't hump randomly. If you stick your leg out, she may or may not hump it. She doesnt hump strangers. She does it usually after me and Erik have been cuddling or *canoodling* she tends to get frisky. I dont find it disgusting. Kody will hump other dogs that come over. I dont hump people when they come over, but then again, I am not a dog.


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

I come across as harsh and angry because people are lied to about these methods being "the most humane" when the trainers are telling someone to kill the dog rather than give it the correction it needs and being able to live the rest of its life to the fullest.

did you even read the articles I posted?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

slydogges said:


> I come across as harsh and angry because people are lied to about these methods being "the most humane" when the trainers are telling someone to kill the dog rather than give it the correction it needs and being able to live the rest of its life to the fullest.
> 
> did you even read the articles I posted?


Sly
Did you even read my reply

*I see nothing wrong with the training program you are using and mine as I have stated earlier is 70% negative. I even checked out your articles and could find nothing to argue about because to train a dog professionally I find that balance is necessary to get a proper job within an allotted time period.*

It's a wash out either way as there have been a lot of dogs ruined etc by the negative idiots as by the positive idiots. Save your strength and anger for things you can change or you will burn out early in life. I am now going to leave this thread as I find I'm not much help here.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

5 dogsandahuman:
Lets agree to disagree. If you terrorize a dog into obedience with corrections you lose much of the dog. The dog obeys out of fear not to as opposed to a desire to.

If you recognize that dogs do NOT infer and do NOT generalize what they have learned, you will take the dog to a few different locations and get the obedience as the dog will learn to generalize that particular command. 

Like I said, your mind is made up and closed on this, so there is no point in more discussion. 

Slydogges
I don't show AKC. I do herding (with my last dog) and am starting agility. My dog is starting on sheep. My dog COULD do AKC (she has the papers) but I am not interested. she comes and sits in front of me because that is part of what I ask.. and I have it an automatic. 

You neglected to mention is that the dogs you were working with were Rehab cases with aggression problems. Most are not.. just simply untrained. A rehab dog aggressive dog is a WHOLE 'nother training problem than a dog that is basically untrained. In the former, you do what you gotta do (tho I still say start out TRYING PR). In the latter, I say try PR first.. learn how it works.. and move forward. 

Corrections, or aversives, work in the right hands. Many people are too hard.. get angry at the dog and corrections turn into abuse aand that abuse can truly ruin a dog. That is why, especially on a dog forum, I will NEVER support aversive training methods. PR doesn't typically RUIN a dog and is not abusive.. if used incorrectly it just creates a fat, uneducated dog. 

I am interested in a well behaved dog. I do, still, use some corrections but I try the other way first because it is less invasive... Sort of the old Adage of "first do no HARM." My results have, obviously, been better than yours using this method. Learning the theory is much much easier than actually using it to shape a behavior. I find it interesting and, for the most part, reliable (maybe I am lucky and have a REALLY willing and Intelliegent dog too?). 

You assume much, but this is a forum and we are not face to face. 

The issue, Sly, is the way your posts come across.. ANGRY and CLOSE MINDED. while many dogs would not hold a 600 yd stay, mine would, always have.. and leared to do so w/o corrections or aversives. Yes.. distractions can take many forms. What you showed wasn't much IMO. Not for the average dog. Maybe a lot for that dog but not a lot for most dogs I have worked with. 

You do sound as if education is a waste of breath.. Remember this the next time you are sick or your dog is sick.. and you go to a Doctor or a vet. Would you rather the old lady down the road w/o education guessing at what is wrong, or would you prefer an educated doc or vet? 

Education is another tool in this life, be it dog training or anything else. You read the academics and it can save you a LOT of time learning on your own on many things. Formal education has its place and I suggest you do not throw the baby out with the bath water (as I have not thrown out corrections, merely reduced their need and adopted many of the PR methods). 

Well, as WV says.. I am done here. One thing I learned by education and debates in college and HS is that when a person is emotional you can't talk or discuss. Reason takes a back seat to emotion. All they do is FEEL w/o thinking. 

Hope you can get rid of that.. Anger is a necessity at times, but it is far better to think first and save the anger for things you can do something about. What people think on a dog forum is not one of those places. 

All of life you will meet up with idiots.. but even from idiots you can learn if you open your mind and throw the anger aside. You aren't going to control or change anyone's thinking or actions. Mostly all you can control is YOUR attitude. It took me a few years of living to learn this... in everything. 

To paraphrase Ray Bradbury (Dandelion Wine): _When you are seventeen, you know everything. When you are 25, if you STILL know everything, you are still 17. _ 

Glad you like your dogs, and everything is working for you. 

I'm done here.. not helping anyone as WV has said.


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> 5 dogsandahuman:
> Lets agree to disagree. If you terrorize a dog into obedience with corrections you lose much of the dog. The dog obeys out of fear not to as opposed to a desire to.
> 
> If you recognize that dogs do NOT infer and do NOT generalize what they have learned, you will take the dog to a few different locations and get the obedience as the dog will learn to generalize that particular command.
> ...


I find it funny that you state that I would terrorize my dogs or that they perform obedience out of fear when you have yet to set eyes on my dogs or how they perform. Based on what you are describing, I have no doubts that at this point your dogs would perform better than mine . . .I am still working all five through intermediate obedience . . .however, once the training is completed, I would have no problems putting any one of my dogs up against yours . . .and you will see the happy faces and wagging tails on all. They perform obedience for me because they want to . . .but at the same time they know what is expected and that they HAVE to perform. They do not have a choice in the matter simply because if faced with a dangerous situation in which their lives may be at stake, they MUST listen to me. Thus, if I am not consistent and they do not perform the first time every time under normal circumstances, how can I expect a do to perform under stress? If this is considered terrorizing them, then I am guilty. But I would rather be guilty of this and have a safe, reliable, healthy, living dog than one that decided to chase a squirrel and get hit by a car . . .or one that would react adversely to large numbers of people in tight quarters.

I also find it funny that you say you lose most of the dog . . .I've seen my dogs become more confident and more personality come out of them through this training that they ever showed before. They are confident because they know what is expected of them, and they trust me for it.

As far as my mind being made up and closed . . .on this point you are correct . . .but only because I had my mind open to so many other methods and ideologies before . . .and all they did was screw up my dogs. I've gone to several people for help and instruction . . .I've tried the purely positive training . . .I've tried the treat and clicker stuff . . .I've tried treats mixed with pinch/chokes and corrections . . .and everything I've tried has not even come CLOSE to the results I've seen from the methods I am using now. . .and the results were almost immediate.

If you want to talk about people complimenting you on your dogs, as you had earlier, that's great, but what I will say is that I received compliments on how well behaved and highly trained my dogs must be only after 3 days in the new program. All my dogs were dong was walking on a loose leash . . .that shows how much disobedience people today are accustomed to and acceptive of. Despite what society might say or believe, I will not have my dogs acting in an inappropriate manner . . .and I will take ALL steps necessary to insure my dogs will be safe in all situations. If that means correcting my dog, so be it. But my dogs are happy, healthy, playful, and loving despite the discipline the receive . . .and actually I know it's because of it.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Well I apologize that this thread got so heated.

Last night we were hanging out with my family and my brothers fiancees family. Her dad had a spray bottle that they use on their dogs when they bark. They've had it for a year and *still* have to use it. It stops them from barking...that second.. but they start up again. Anywho- her dad kept spraying me with the water whenever I'd say anything. My brother said, "Interesting on how she stops, so I guess negative corrections work." The more and more he sprayed me, the less and less it bothered me, and a few minutes later I said, "Funny how I am now used to it and it no longer bothers me, so I guess your theory really *doesn't* work now does it?" I believe it CAN all be done using positive only. Many people do not have the time or patience for this. I myself have used negative corrections on my dogs. I just don't support ALL negative.

If there is one thing we can, (I hope,) all agree on, is that if you constantly yell at your dog for what you don't want them to do and never show them what you WANT them to do, than you are only creating a fearful, confused dog. Just yesterday they picked up the floormat in the bathroom and there must have been a square foot on urine on it.

When I got back to my house last night my dad apologized for the way my brother was acting, and I simply said, "Thats okay. My dogs are friendly and may not be the best behaved at all times, but I dont have to lock my dogs up when company comes over out of fear that they will bite, and I don't have dogs pooping in my house. I know I am right. That's all that matters."

(my brother had company yesterday and their lab mix went crazy and they had to lock him in his crate.)


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

How can my methods be "all negative" when you just saw a video of me praising my dog like crazy on a recall? and then you say that I'm not supposed to praise when my dog comes to me. I'm confused.

My dog does the obedience because he trusts the obedience that I am giving. he finds comfort in those commands when in stressful situation because he knows that I, being the master over him, will not let him get hurt.

he is the same dog just more confident when faced with a stressful situation. He doesn't need a collar on him at all and most of the time goes without anything on his neck.

he had an aggressive dog snap and snarl at him and he looked at it like "what's your problem?" when in the past he was the one starting it or lunging back if the dog lunged at him.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

slydogges said:


> How can my methods be "all negative" when you just saw a video of me praising my dog like crazy on a recall? and then you say that I'm not supposed to praise when my dog comes to me. I'm confused.


 You said that it is stupid to use toys or food. How can "praise" not be stupid? Well, praise, food, and toys are three ways to motivate dogs to do something good. I prefer toys out of three because it makes obedience more fun and I don't have to bride anything. I still use food and praise for other things. I think it is stupid to focus on one thing "praise" and ignore other two more positive resources. 



> My dog does the obedience because he trusts the obedience that I am giving. he finds comfort in those commands when in stressful situation because he knows that I, being the master over him, will not let him get hurt.


 Because he trusts obedience? Well no, your dog doesn't trust it, he is interested to please you. There is no such "trust in obedience." A dog has to trust his master to tell him what to do. A dog can be taught sit and ignore his owner because he wants to. He doesn't have to listen. He doesn't need to sit because someone said "sit." It has to be a specific handler someone who he wants to please not some random person said "SIT." 



> he is the same dog just more confident when faced with a stressful situation. He doesn't need a collar on him at all and most of the time goes without anything on his neck.


 So what, that doesn't impress me. Elisa walks around without leash and collar in french ring many times with a decoy standing there. Can your dog go under between your legs and walk at the same time? Guess what, my dog can do it. I'm not interested to brag what things she can do because she does many things enough to blow someone off. She wears muzzle and doing heel without need to scratch her face. I put her on the leash when I am done with the excerise. 

All those things that the helper and I taught her, were basically on food, praise, and toys. She obeys me all the time without toys and food when we are out for walking/jogging/biking. I don't always carry food and toys and she will be off leashed running around and digging holes in the desert. If I call her name, she comes unquestionable.

Your ignorant post is pissing many people off include me.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

It just comes down to common sense. If someone forces you to do something, you may do it, but you probably wont like that person very much. If you do it, it may be out of fear.

If someone gives you a treat every time you did what they wanted, you'd want to do it more often. I mean I know I would, especially if they were using oreos.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> It just comes down to common sense. If someone forces you to do something, you may do it, but you probably wont like that person very much. If you do it, it may be out of fear.


 Exactly, you got this right. I don't want my dog to have a "fear-hate" relationship with me, but I want my dog to be excited to do things for me. I don't want to punish or force her to do things. 



> If someone gives you a treat every time you did what they wanted, you'd want to do it more often. I mean I know I would, especially if they were using oreos.


 Yes, but we have to be careful with "reward" and "bride." I don't want to bride my dog to do something because it won't work if I asked him to do something with no food. Whether food is there or not, he has to be rewarded.


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

4dogs3cats said:


> It just comes down to common sense. If someone forces you to do something, you may do it, but you probably wont like that person very much. If you do it, it may be out of fear.
> 
> If someone gives you a treat every time you did what they wanted, you'd want to do it more often. I mean I know I would, especially if they were using oreos.


Until there is something more interesting than oreos or I am tired of oreos. If the bribe isn't as interesting as the other things going on around you . . .you'll probably blow off the bribe. But once again, you are trying to equate what YOU would do to the dog . . .dogs are not people.

And boo hoo . . .my poor dog was forced to do something. I don't care if the dog likes to sit . . .if I tell him to sit there is a good reason for it and therefore the dog needs to do it. If I let my dogs do everything they wanted to they would be destructive terrors . . .and probably like me less because I wouldn't be able to spend as much quality time with them cause I would have to fix everything.



> Quote:
> Originally Posted by slydogges View Post
> How can my methods be "all negative" when you just saw a video of me praising my dog like crazy on a recall? and then you say that I'm not supposed to praise when my dog comes to me. I'm confused.
> You said that it is stupid to use toys or food. How can "praise" not be stupid? Well, praise, food, and toys are three ways to motivate dogs to do something good. I prefer toys out of three because it makes obedience more fun and I don't have to bride anything. I still use food and praise for other things. I think it is stupid to focus on one thing "praise" and ignore other two more positive resources.
> ...


Praise is a positive reinforcement . . .treats and toys are bribes . . .there is a difference. You also don't have to worry about carrying around "praise" like you do with treats or toys . . .so your dog can always expect it . . .and you don't have to use it as a crutch like most people do with treats and toys . . .so there's a big difference. 

My questions to you would be "Why does your dog need to wear a muzzle? Do you not trust your dog enough not to bite unless instructed? Is your dog so unstable that a muzzle is necessary?" I don't care if my dog walks under and between my legs . . .because I know if I wanted it to I could teach it how and it won't benefit me at all in real life. . .but I DO care that I have a stable enough dog that I don't have to muzzle it.

And I'm glad that your dog recalls to you well and that your dog is obedient enough that it can be off leash . . .but I've yet to see a dog that was trained with treats be as reliable as the ones that I've seen trained solely with praise as the positive reinforcer.

And . . .if the post is pissing you off . . .stay off the post. No one is forcing you to read or be a part of this.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

5dogsandahuman said:


> Praise is a positive reinforcement . .treats and toys are bribes .


 Your post is laughable. Praise, treats, and toys are not bribes.. They are positive reinforcement!



> there is a difference. You also don't have to worry about carrying around "praise" like you do with treats or toys .


 You are a fool to fall for something like that. I don't need to carry toys or food with me all the time. If my dog came to me, it gets a praise. If she is heeling and keeping her focus on my face, I prefer to reward her with a toy. Play a tug of war. 




> My questions to you would be "Why does your dog need to wear a muzzle? Do you not trust your dog enough not to bite unless instructed?


 All dogs should be muzzle trained and that doesn't mean they are necessary vicious. 



> Is your dog so unstable that a muzzle is necessary?"


 Unstable? I find it humor. Elisa works with a decoy, and she does bite work.Does it mean she is a danger to public? No, she is having so much fun playing with her decoy in the field and obey my commands. She does food refusal, wear with/out muzzle, heeling, she has to stay between decoy's leg so he can't out run her if he did, she gets a bite, walking backward (face to face a decoy) while I walk forward, etc. 




> .because I know if I wanted it to I could teach it how and it won't benefit me at all in real life. . .but I DO care that I have a stable enough dog that I don't have to muzzle it.


 If your dog is in a terrible pain, snapping at vets and everyone? Does it mean your dog is not stable? Your statement was ridiculous. Dogs should be taught to wear muzzle like they do with collars and leashes. It doesn't mean they are atomically dangerous. Just safety concerns. 



> .but I've yet to see a dog that was trained with treats be as reliable as the ones that I've seen trained solely with praise as the positive reinforcer.


 Mind you, I am big on positive training and I use toys, food, and praise. Toys and praise are not " bribing" but food can be bribing at some times. I am not keen on food, but some food works marvelous on some dogs. It shouldn't be neglected because it is considered bribing. 



> And . . .if the post is pissing you off . . .stay off the post. No one is forcing you to read or be a part of this.


 Who care if I got pissed off? I think your post was ignorant and I had to chime in. It showed how much you don't understand about "positive" reinforcement.

A video of french ring in case you don't know what it is all about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZso1-pAbM4&feature=related


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

slydogges said:


> I demand perfection. If you don't demand it, you will never get it...


Huh...I geuss you MUST be perfect then too, because to demand perfection, one has to be perfect, lest they fail...For goodness sake; NO ONE is perfect...

And my girl does come "off" of a toy, or treat, or anything I call her off of... and I HAVE had to call her away from the road; I live in town...recall or leave it (as a cue to come off of something) the most important commands I work on; just because of the nature of the place I live...HIGH DISTRACTION!!! But I geuss that doesn't matter to you, because you think that I don't desire my dog to be perfect. It is a great 'goal' but it isn't truly attainable, if you live in the real world that is. My dog is reliable, and with training, I hope our new girl becomes just as reliable. But what matters most to me is that they be the perfect pets that they are; even if they do have their 'flaws' or bad days. So what if I still have to leash up from time to time in a park? It may be safer for them, especially if a loose dog approaches us, and I have to stand between the two, because I don't know if it is 'dog friendly' or not. It's also safer, on those days when neither of us are really focused on 'work', but just want to enjoy each other's company on a pleasant walk. My girl enjoys to play in parks, but lately has been more attuned to simply walking beside me as we stroll around the park...I don't demand her to stay in a perfect heel position, because that is not why we are there, even though she places herself there; she simply wants to be with me. When she seems like she wants to play again, then I take out the ball and toss it for her. 

You said you show your dogs; have you ever had one be able to do the requirements of Utility? To me, if a dog can do those things, then you have done your work right; no matter what 'reinforcement' method you have chosen. Most people can't do shutz...so utility would be the highest obedience they can attain. Oh, and another thing, on your 'I don't care if they sit front' on a recall...what good will it be if they don't when you are faced with something alot more distracting than your homefront? Like if you call them front in a strange park, and they come, but don't complete it, and run around like they did in your video, and an aggressive dog runs up? You have no control over what happens, because you don't have your dog's focus and aren't in a position to grab them. Just a thought.

I do also see the 'relavance' of teaching a dog to accept a muzzle; even a halti can accomplish that; they simply should get used to something on their face, should the need arise for you to HAVE to muzzle them. If they aren't used to it then they can freak out more, or even snap at you more because they don't like you messing with their faces. I groomed a dog this weekend that didn't want her ears cleaned. She snapped at me once and I HEARD her teeth clap together really hard, so I figured I would muzzle her. Well, She wanted NOTHING to do with me handling her face to put that muzzle on; she grabbed my fingers twice; I don't have bad wounds, but still...a dog needs to be taught to have his face handled and even restrained, if a circumstance occurs in which they need it. I eventually had to grab a long peice of ribbon, and 'sneakily' slip it under her chin, then quick tie it, so I could put the actual muzzle on... I think that is what French Ring is trying to explain in 'why' a dog should be used to being muzzled. Even when I took the muzzle off of that dog, to finish grooming her face, she kept wanting to snap...I wanted to smack the owners...


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

What I understand about PR is that the purely PR people have dogs that are highly unstable and unreliable.

I also understand that French Ring is a sport . . .and the fact that the dog went for something other than the weapon hand shows that it's sport . . .and I doubt that in real life that dog would handle the stress or truly be able to protect because the game is not fun and the sleeve is not there.

Believe whatever you want. Call us ignorant all you want . . .but your dog will not compare to ours in the real world situations they will be faced with once they finish training.

And no, we do not have to be perfect to demand perfection from our dogs . . .but perfection should be demanded . . .a slip up in real life can be fatal for the dog or other people.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

5dogsandahuman said:


> I also understand that French Ring is a sport . . .and the fact that the dog went for something other than the weapon hand shows that it's sport . .


 Yes french ring is a sport and nothing else. What else do you need to say? We do have some people in our club who are police officers. Actually, french ring has a lot to offer than schutzhund. 



> I doubt that in real life that dog would handle the stress or truly be able to protect because the game is not fun and the sleeve is not there.


 You are right, my dog might not save me in real life and I don't want her to save my life if she needs to. I didn't get Elisa because I want a protection. Actually, there are PPD dogs who were trained to save lives. 



> Believe whatever you want. Call us ignorant all you want . . .but your dog will not compare to ours in the real world situations they will be faced with once they finish training.


 HUH? What kind of real situation are you talking about? What are you trying to achieve in a real world? I don't think if you depend heavily on obedience with only using "praise" method will teach your dog to protect his life for you. I highly doubt. 



> but perfection should be demanded


 There is no such thing to demand a "perfection." It takes practice to make things perfect. You can't demand a trust and perfection in every dogs. You can't walk in a room and say " I want you do a perfect sit attempt at once and if you didn't do it right then you are no good and unstable." Dogs are not born to be a robot. 

They all have different personality and not all will like the same thing. Maybe one method will work on one dog and not work on other. What if a dog does not care much for positive attention, but he is so intense with toys and food. All he wants is food and toys, and you can work your way around toys and food without need to bride him. 

You are fortunately that your dogs depend heavily on "praise," but maybe your next dog is not going to care much for praise. Not all dogs born to be the same. I have no problem with anyone want to praise their dogs, but they shouldn't be so closed minded on other positive options too. 

Your dogs will never be perfect so is mine. I don't care if she is prefect or not, but I love her with my whole heart for what she is. Elisa is not perfect in everything she does, sometimes she will have a bad day and giving me 80%. Some day she is doing fabulous awesome and giving me more than 80%. If she and I are in a high level competition for french ring and mondio ring, it will be nice if she gives me 120%. If we ended up in last place, I still be happy and proud. At least we tired our best because there are many excellent trainers and dogs that do things better than we do.


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

man, you all really are idiots when it comes to dogs.

there is a difference between an unstable dog and a dog in pain. any 5 year old can understand that. 

and muzzling an unstable dog is different than putting a muzzle on a dog in pain. 

you said it right about french ring, 5 dogs. it is a bit different that schutzhund though. still a sport.

dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe. It showes a false sense that the dog really enjoys obedience, but it doesn't. the dog likes the treat not the command given. A dog would be just as happy doing no obedience.

I do 4H showing and their requirements are kind of the same as AKC. what you do is the same. I haven't showed in any AKC shows as I don't have the time as I work my dog a lot in more stressful situations that a dog show, but putting sly on a down-stay around all those neurotic and treat driven dogs is a pretty stressful.

I have recalled my dog at a park before. I do have control over my dog. if a dog were to try to attack my dog I would down-stay him where he's at and take care of the aggressor as needed. That is my job as master to protect my dog and trust me if a dog is coming after my dog I will do what it takes to make that dog back off. I don't need to grab them. That is the pint of their obedience training at any distance. They could be 100 feet away doing whatever and when I give a command they perform. It just really depends on the situation.

utility is nothing compared to what my dogs can do I could have my dog doing everything for utility if I wanted to, but some of it don't really care about as it is not important to me when I go out into the real world with my dogs. 

I have showed you my videos. where's your's?


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

slydogges said:


> and muzzling an unstable dog is different than putting a muzzle on a dog in pain.


 Still it means your dog is unstable even if he's in pain. Because muzzle is muzzle, inside your head it is "dangerous." 



> dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe. It showes a false sense that the dog really enjoys obedience, but it doesn't. the dog likes the treat not the command given. A dog would be just as happy doing no obedience.


 This is where my biggest irk. I don't hate you or think you are a bad person. I strongly DISAGREE with you about toys, treats, and clickers considered to be a bribe. They are not a bribe at all, but food can be. This is where I have a big problem with your opinion on that because I know it is completely false. 



> I do 4H showing and their requirements are kind of the same as AKC.


 Do you think you are above everyone in here? Wow, AKC does a lot to impress everyone. 



> I have recalled my dog at a park before. I do have control over my dog. if a dog were to try to attack my dog I would down-stay him where he's at and take care of the aggressor as needed.


 I'm glad you do have a control over your dog. Owners should have control over their dogs. This has nothing to do with the debate we are having. 



> That is my job as master to protect my dog and trust me if a dog is coming after my dog I will do what it takes to make that dog back off. I don't need to grab them. That is the pint of their obedience training at any distance. They could be 100 feet away doing whatever and when I give a command they perform. It just really depends on the situation.


 I agree that responsible dog owners' job are to protect their pack from any threats outside their family. I have no problem with that really.



> utility is nothing compared to what my dogs can do I could have my dog doing everything for utility if I wanted to, but some of it don't really care about as it is not important to me when I go out into the real world with my dogs.


 What do you mean by "real world?" We are living in a real world and we aren't living in some fantasy land. 



> I have showed you my videos. where's your's?


 I don't need a video to show you because I have no interest to be competitive to see who has "better" dogs. My opinion, when someone does that, they must be very insecure about themselves. If you believe in what you do, you have no need to prove anyone. 

Things you have taught your dog is different than what I taught my dogs to do. How can we two be compared in something that are so different? French ring is different from doing AKC obedience. All SchH and IPO dogs are required to have intense FOCUS on their handlers. They are walking with their heads looking at handlers and ignoring everyone. They don't take one little peek at anything. From what I heard about AKC Obedience, you don't need that intense focus, but a mild/good focus will be fine.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

slydogges said:


> man, you all really are idiots when it comes to dogs.
> 
> dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe. It showes a false sense that the dog really enjoys obedience, but it doesn't. the dog likes the treat not the command given. A dog would be just as happy doing no obedience.
> 
> ...


Wow...you're something else...

Yes, I use treats, I use praise, and I give huge releases when an exercise has been accomplished, but DON'T EVER ACCUSE ME of not having a relationship with my dog...she goes everywhere with me, even to work (dog groomer here). She doesn't hate my husband, but when it comes down to it, she would rather be with ME...EVEN if he has treats in his hand (which you say is what they are bonded to)!! Tell me that is not a relationship???!!!! What you are saying is absolutely ridiculous...My dog is a dog, and she is allowed to be a dog...yet amazingly...she knows well over 50 cues. 

I don't have a video camera, so I cannot give you videos...I could post pictures of some of the work we do, but you probably wouldn't be impressed anyway...I will save it for the show ring, the parks (where we play, encounter alot of our 'therapy' kids, and work on off lead obedience) and training classes, where we work on improving our skills as a team...

Ummm...guys...can I call troll?????


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

Love,

Don't worry much about it because we both know that what Sly and 5dogs said aren't true.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Oh I know...

I liked what you said about your Elisa too; my dog is perfect for me too, even on her bad days...jeez, it's like they think THEY are the only ones who have a relationship with their dogs...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I wasn't going to get into this thread; I know little about any training method and my dogs are not particularly well-trained. I do find them agreeable to live with, though, so they are trained to some degree. 

What I will say is that, of all the pet dogs I have ever met, I have never met one that could be called very well-trained. Some of them reasonably well-trained, maybe. But, those that were trained using mostly/all negative methods have all been unstable and scared, and those that were trained using mostly/all positive methods are more secure and calm. Since those that were trained using negative methods were NOT more obedient, I see no reason to make my dog unstable and scared by using aversives.

The average pet owner is not experienced enough to use aversives properly, and can easily ruin a dog. It takes a very experienced handler to use aversives in a manner so as not to ruin a dog. Aversive methods should never be recommended to an unexperienced dog owner. I believe I ruined my first dog by reading too many training books from the library, and, by doing as recommended, using too many negative methods. She's highly neurotic now. And my grandpa's dog (trained using HIGHLY aversive methods) was much, MUCH worse. I've never met a more unstable dog. 

And he would not even walk near my grandpa; they had no bond at all. Yes, I know my grandpa was abusive and no good trainer would do that, but the point is that he "trained" his dogs that way because it was recommended to him by more experienced trainers. Great harm can be done by recommending negative methods to novices.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> dogs trained with clickers, treats,toys, or any other bribes is not bonded with the handler at all, but to the bribe.


Hey everybody!!

Take a look at my *clicker trained* GSD and I working in a trial! Look how he's not at all bonded to me, is ignoring me, and is refusing to retrieve the dumbbell!

I know nothing about dog training!!





































Retrieve? Clicker trained. Retrieves 99% of the time with no food involved. Watch me? Clicker trained. The attention in heel? Originally trained with negative reinforcement...got nowhere. Clicker trained it...gorgeous


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Dear, tell your brother that this is what positive training can get you:




























and most importantly:


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Slydogges, I'd really like to see you train a German Spitz (or related breed- Eskie, Pom, or Keesie), a sighthound, or a bull terrier with nothing but praise. To perfection, of course. (And I'll define perfection as a 199+ score in the obedience ring.)

Cait
PS: When you do this, I will concede that praise alone is sufficient and go to that model of training.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Dear, tell your brother that this is what positive training can get you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Xeph
I was not going to jump back on this thread, but after viewing pictures I had to give some constructive criticism. The dog was absolutely stunning but the handler was not smiling. When you work a dog like that you should be smiling broadly as it appears from photos that hard work pays off with dividends.
wvasko


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Dear, tell your brother that this is what positive training can get you:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good example using my breed too! Gorgeous dog!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph
> I was not going to jump back on this thread, but after viewing pictures I had to give some constructive criticism. The dog was absolutely stunning but the handler was not smiling.


The handler never smiles during the exercises  It's based out of stress, not displeasure with the dog. In between exercises I smile and he gets praised for a job well done ^_^

I'd like to smile more, but I tend to get so nervous during performance runs, that I become very serious, from thinking about what I have to do next. I can admittedly be very "stiff" with my emotions DURING the actual exercises.

Outside of the ring I joke to help with my nerves and smile a lot and talk to my dog. Inside the ring it becomes "work time". I'm STILL all about having fun, but the nerves can just get to me.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Xeph said:


> The handler never smiles during the exercises  It's based out of stress, not displeasure with the dog. In between exercises I smile and he gets praised for a job well done ^_^
> 
> I'd like to smile more, but I tend to get so nervous during performance runs, that I become very serious, from thinking about what I have to do next. I can admittedly be very "stiff" with my emotions DURING the actual exercises.
> 
> Outside of the ring I joke to help with my nerves and smile a lot and talk to my dog. Inside the ring it becomes "work time". I'm STILL all about having fun, but the nerves can just get to me.


I understood exactly what was going on in your head and heart. Getting the butterflies and the nerves involved is all part of the thrill of handling your dog. That's what it's all about. Mistake free or not when it's done you still got your dog, how cool is that.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Mistake free or not when it's done you still got your dog


Ain't that the truth 

And even on days we bomb, I wouldn't have it any other way ^_^


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

yawn. no, pics are not enough. They show me nothing except a dog. I want a video or see your dog work in action.

so, instead of showing a person how to correct a dog you condem it to death. very "dog friendly" and "humane" there.

I know of a perosn who has two huskies who need no lead nor collar and did not bribe their dog. I also know of dutch Shepherd's dogs, boxers, rottweilers, jack russel terriers, and other breeds that are toted as stubborn and not able to be off lead let alone off collar. They obey without a collar on them, same as the huskies. Good enough for you..oh wait...I didn't train them so It isn't.


take your dog outside, out of the stupid dog show ring and into the real world where its pouring rain, he has no COLLAR AND LEAD on, and have gun fire going off. see if he obeys you then. and have plenty of cats and other dogs around. makes sure to have a piece of raw steak there too. these are the real world distractions dogs must face every day. and don't tell me about the stupid leash laws. leads break , get dropped, bit in half,etc. 

we had to at one point stop on the side of the highway and fix something in the back of the car. I had to let the dogs out. I puit them on a down-stay with out a collar and lead on them on the side of a busy highway. That is a real world situation and my dogs must obey. They can't decide to break and go into the highway.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> so, instead of showing a person how to correct a dog you condem it to death


Who said that? Not me.

You want video?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HO5MAHiqYnQ


> take your dog outside, out of the stupid dog show ring and into the real world where its pouring rain, he has no COLLAR AND LEAD on, and have gun fire going off.


We do it all the time. It's called schutzhund  Well, not collarless. I'm not going to risk the life of my dog just to prove something to somebody with a fantastically enormous ego ;-) You call me chicken I'm sure, I call myself smart and a responsible dog owner.

I don't bribe my dog. I reward my dog.

Would you work for no paycheck? Is that bribery? By your definition it would be. By your same definition, you should work for no paycheck.



> and have plenty of cats and other dogs around.


You make it sound like these are hard tasks to train for...they're not.

And quit demeaning the hard work of others by calling the AKC ring stupid. It may be stupid to you, but it's hard work for the rest of us who care to show how well we've trained our dogs, and how hard we've worked to get there.



> and don't tell me about the stupid leash laws. leads break , get dropped, bit in half,etc.


I'm not going to break the law and risk the life of my dog to prove anything to you. Good try though.


> I puit them on a down-stay with out a collar and lead on them on the side of a busy highway


Way to put your dog's lives in jeopardy for your ego.



> That is a real world situation and my dogs must obey. They can't decide to break and go into the highway.


Sure they can. They CHOOSE not to.

My dog may be 99.9 percent reliable, but he'll never be 100%, and I don't expect him to be. I won't risk losing him even for .1 percent

Ok, I'm done feeding the troll now ^_^


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

slydogges said:


> man, you all really are *idiots* when it comes to dogs.


When people resort to name calling it is usually a sign that the person is immature, uneducated, lacking in imagination and has limited intelligence, limited writing skills and limited ability to self express. 

Please, stop calling people names. If you are unable to express yourself without calling people names, perhaps you should move on. 



slydogges said:


> ..take your dog outside, out of the *stupid* dog show ring..
> 
> ..and don't tell me about the *stupid* leash laws.


More name calling. Why not just say that you disagree with Obedience ring protocol and in your opinion it doesn't show what you think it should? Then, rather than coming across as an angry child, simply and politely state the parameters of your disagreement?

The same with leash laws? Why are things "stupid" when you can say that you don't like/agree with etc. leash laws? Not that it matters.. if you break them you get fined too... just like the speed limit.. Laws don't discriminate between dogs or drivers. 



Xeph said:


> .. I don't bribe my dog. I reward my dog.
> 
> Would you work for no paycheck? Is that bribery? By your definition it would be. By your same definition, you should work for no paycheck.
> 
> ...


Very well said, Xeph. I know if they stopped paying ME I wouldn't go to work anymore. 

Your dog is lovely and focused. I am sure you are very pleased with him. I don't do formal obedience but you have done a very nice job and TY for sharing it! 



Xeph said:


> .. Ok, I'm done feeding the troll now ^_^


Yeah.. me too. I used to inspect bridges for the County Hiway Department and I can say that I have looked under enough bridges....


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Wow, miss a thread for a few days and... 

Anyway, found the quote I was looking for.



> Classical conditioning of emotions explains why reward-based training procedures seem to work better and establish a stronger bond between the dog and his trainer than punishment-based systems. Every time you give the dog a treat or some other reward, you set up the event sequence "sight of you-treat-pleasant feeling." Even if your timing is off and your not a very good and knowledgeable trainer, there is no harm being done in this case.
> 
> -Stanley Coren


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## reverend_maynard (Aug 4, 2007)

harrise said:


> Wow, miss a thread for a few days and...
> 
> Anyway, found the quote I was looking for.


That's enough with the fancy book learning now!

This has been a good thread. Elana, Xeph, 4d3c, wvasko, all presented some great information. Sly and 5dogs did a great job of playing the shill, though unintentionally, I'm sure.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> What I understand about PR is that the purely PR people have dogs that are highly unstable and unreliable.


Well, I've trained my dog with purely PR, and he is completely stable and reliable, as well as being incredibly bonded to me. Most of the most stable and reliable dogs I've ever seen were trained using PR. Many dogs are primarily food or toy driven and really don't care much about praise. I trained my Pug with food rewards, since he is primarily food motivated, and fazed out the rewards over time. I don't need to have a treat hanging in front of his face to get him to obey me, and he absolutely loves to work with me.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

slydogges said:


> take your dog outside, out of the stupid dog show ring and into the real world where its pouring rain, he has no COLLAR AND LEAD on, and have gun fire going off. see if he obeys you then. and have plenty of cats and other dogs around. makes sure to have a piece of raw steak there too. these are the real world distractions dogs must face every day. and don't tell me about the stupid leash laws. leads break , get dropped, bit in half,etc.


I dont take my dogs where its raining with random cats and dogs running around and some maniac barbequing while shooting a gun...so that isnt the real world for me...


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Who BBQs in the rain? I mean, reallY!


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> Who BBQs in the rain? I mean, reallY!


haha, and I can also assure you if it were any of MY cats....or dogs for that matter, running around, they would NOT be running in the rain. Especially Bailey cuz she hates when her feet get wet. Maybe he can put the gun down and come inside and barbeque- than i think everyone will be happy and I can continue my training...once the rain stops.


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.

can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

slydogges said:


> are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.
> 
> can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.


NO...I am not a hermit, and neither is my dog...did you not read that she goes to work with me? she goes pretty much anywhere I can get away with having her... I don't always have a lead on her...a collar, yes, because she has vital information...like her RABIES tag (should someone come up and ask to see proof of vaccination), on her collar; along with her id tag. And she does obey...there have been times when something freaky loud has gone on, and she has remained calmer than me- and that is saying alot, because she is a soft dog; and all I ever do is give her a subtle stay cue, either by hand, or voice cue...she doesn't run, but stays at my side, or feet in the position she was in before the scarey thing happened. Yesterday a squirrel literally ran under both of our faces...she didn't chase but only looked at it goofily (like, what was that?) after I gave her a leave it cue...we kept walking, her in her normal heel position; leash draped over my shoulder as usual. 

Maybe we should just have DF fun match??? Huh? Cause even if I 'gave' you your proof, or anyone else, for that matter...I find that you probably wouldn't believe us anyway...I would even gander a guess that my dog gets out into public alot more than your farm dogs do...but that is just a guess, especially because you are still in school? My dog is with me during the day, pretty much everyday of the week...so tell me my dog doesn't 'get out'...


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

slydogges said:


> are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.
> 
> can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.


They dont usually all happen at the SAME time. We were being comical. You were being angry.

Why do you keep saying with no collar on. Whats the big deal about no collar on? Will YOUR dog obey you while wearing a dress?


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

slydogges said:


> are you all hermits that never take your dogs out or something? rain, random animals, food smells, sudden loud noises,etc. are things you dog will eventually have to cope with wether you want them to or not.
> 
> can your dog obey you with out a collar even on, the first time you command, every time you command, under any conditions, without any treats or bribes/"lures" in sight? if not then your methods don't work. show me that they work to my standards. if they do then we will talk. haven't seen any proof yet.


Um, given that I know any number of exclusively clicker trained service dogs? Heck yeah they're working in public and yes, entirely without food reinforcement- that's the entire point of a variable reinforcement schedule.

I will say, I *do* consider it irresponsible to have a dog without a collar out in public. You need SOMETHING to hang the tags on.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Yep, Kuma obeys me without a leash, not without a collar, since I would never bring him out in public without a collar, that's just irresponsible. No treats either.  I can take him to the offleash dog park with dogs running all over the place, people with toys, treats, you name it, and he will listen to me, without being bribed by treats.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Heck, I took Strauss out to a strange new place today (wayyyy out in the country) and let him off lead.

He ran around like a mad man, but every time I whistled, he looked at me, and everytime he disappeared around a hill or corner and I said his name or said come, he came back on the first try.

There were other dogs in a fenced in enclosure, there were rabbits, there were birds...he didn't have to obey, but he did because he's a well trained dog, and he's been reinforced postively when he complies.

Did I have food? No. Did I have my clicker? No. Because my dog's training is not dependent on him GETTING those things or me GIVING him those things. His training is dependent on his response to ME.

It is not "Show dog cookie/toy, THEN dog comes!" It is "Dog comes, THEN gets cookie/toy....randomly."

By the way, I'll have some great video for all of you later. He had an absolute BLAST out there, and it was so great to be able to see him running free without having to worry about careless drivers on the road 



> show me that they work to my standards. then we will talk.


This was laughable. Seriously, I lol'd. Why should we prove anything to you? My dog's training clearly speaks for itself as #1, he's got titles to show for it, and #2 he's still alive 

He does more than probably 90% of dogs in America


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Can't wait to see your videos!! I will admit, Your dog looks fantastic...especially his attentive heel...Sophie is wonderful (TD\CGC girl that she is), but she doesn't have THAT nice of an attentive heel...it's something that we have had to really work it from the beginning, because when I first got her, she wouldn't give me her eyes at all...She is extremely soft, so I think eye contact IS truly a hard thing for her!!! But she has gotten qualifying scores in the few fun matches I have gone to with her; if I had her LP, we would be titled both in RN, and CD.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't understand why everyone thinks bribes are a bad thing....even those who are defending using treats and toys for rewards are still denying bribery. I see no problem as long as you can fade the bribes eventually. 

My brother and his fiancee bribe their toddler son shamelessly. But the bribes will fade.....he isn't going to be getting M&Ms for using the "big boy potty" by this time next year, but for now, they serve their purpose. I know kids and dogs are different, but, honestly, what's so wrong with bribes?!?!?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Because they're NOT bribes. A bribe is showing someone something and going "You can have this if..."

A reward is doing something that is expected of you and you get something extra...rewards are things you get SOMETIMES, bribes are "You get always, if..."

I do not show my dog a cookie and say "Sitz!" I say "Sitz!" and he may or may not get a cookie.

Giving somebody something for a job well done is NOT the same as going "Sit, sit, sit, SIT! HEY I'll give you THIS if you SIT!"

I expect immediate compliance, food/toy, or not.

It's a lot different telling the toddler "Timmy, you can have a cookie if you use the potty!" and the toddler GOING to the parents, saying "Mommy, daddy! I used the potty!" and them rewarding that.

"You can have this if..." and "You can have this when..." are two different things. My dogs are the trained with the latter, though I do agree that they start on the former.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

A Story:

My current dog is 16 months old, so she is "in training" and I expect that within another 6 months she will be as reliable as my LAST dog. But I digress.

I had a dairy farm and that was how I made my living. I ran just under 400 acres here in the Norhteast and had a good herd of 72 cows. In June one year it was exceptionally dry. The hay crop was good quality but short and was coming in VERY dry. 

I was driving the 706 (a tractor that needed an overhaul) back from rented land with a load of hay. I am tooling along and a car comes up along side of me and the people in the car are gesturing towards my hay load.. I looked back and it was ON FIRE!!! Yikes!!! As I drove, I was fanning the flames!!! The woods were all around... DRY as a BONE.. (Apparently the fire was caused by cylinder blow-by and the stack had no spark arrestor). 

Well about a mile from the farm there is this wide, gravel pull off. I hoped it was wide enough to prevent fire spread and It was in a little hollow so I hoped for NO wind. The flames were getting pretty warm at my back and I had to dump this load.. but did not want to set fire to the woods. 

I get into the pull off and the fire was SOOOO hot.. I had trouble getting the thing blocked and then unhitching the drawbar. 

Well, I hop on the tractor and go FLYING down the road to the barn (which is a mile away and behind a couple of hills) and call the fire company. My dog was at the barn and so she came back up the road to the fire with me (I was on the tractor.. the truck was in the field at the rented land so all I had was the tractor).

I get back to the fire with the tractor and a shovel to put out sparks and the fire company arrives. I put my dog on the edge of the road in a down-stay.. a SINGLE command to STAY.. There were two fire trucks and a rescue squad.. Sirens, firemen, hoses, smoke, people, noise.. it was mayhem. My dog stayed where she was. 

I was asked to go to the barn and get some hay forks to pull the load apart (asked by the fire chief). Some nice neighbors offered me a ride (can't carry 3-4 forks on the tractor and it isn't FAST). I got in the car (nice car = no barn dog can ride in it)and came back with the forks and continued to fight the fire. Where was my dog? EXACTLY WHERE I LEFT HER... on a SINGLE STAY COMMAND.. at the side of the road.. about 30 feet from the fire. She never moved until I released her and it was a WHILE. 

At the time, my dog was fully trained and about 4 years old.. maybe a bit younger. She worked cattle and was reliable in every way.. EXCEPT when she saw little kids. She LOVED little kids and she understood her SCALE (she was a 95 pound GSD). I would put her in a down-stay and if she saw a little kid she would break her stay.. she would crawl up to the child and lay her head on their feet.. and look at them sadly until they petted her. This was her one "transgression." I never had the heart to break her of this terrible misdeed.... 

Was she this reliable at the same age as my current dog? No. I would say she was almost 3 before she was that good (and she was a working dog.. helped handle cattle and horses.. and had to be 100% or I could end up with livestock in the next State.. as opposed to the next pasture!). Was my training method different than what I am doing now? Yes, some of it. However, I used PR for the housebreaking part and teaching to stay.. I didn't know it at the time, but I used PR for both those things and quite a few others like Recall.. but I didn't KNOW that was what I was doing.

So, there is an example of a REAL LIFE situation of a dog staying for a long period of time on a single command taught using PR methods. 

I expect, the way I am making progress with my current dog that she will be as reliable as my last dog.. and it looks like it will be sooner. I am using a LOT more PR than I did with my last dog.. but the parts where I used PR on my last dog have over lapped. My dog gets kudos from observers at the mayhem at dog school for here "stay" and her "wait" and her recall. All taught with PR.. just like my last dog for those commands.

Last, but not least, there are always situations with dogs and dogs' behavior where trainers give up (same with horses). Does it mean the dog should ALWAYS be PTS? Probably not, IF you can come up with a "work around" and get through to the dog, then I think that it should be used. If you can work round something and get it under control so the dog doesn't die, then _perhaps_ that is the way to go. Each case is different. 

It is sort of a take off on the old adage, "Never a Horse that couldn't be rode, Never a cowboy that couldn't be throwed.."


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## Guardian (May 17, 2008)

slydogges said:


> good post 5dogs.
> 
> A dog is not a kid or human or any other creature at all so comparing the to shows that you have no idea how dog learn. DOgs are dogs. Dogs learn by simple rules; praise for doing right, and correction for doing wrong. people are the ones who make it complicated.
> 
> ...


Exactly!

I too could care less about degrees. Infact if you want to talk paper, I personally have a 4 year Bsc in Psychology and I am currently working on a masters. When it comes to the training of my dogs I would much rather see a trainer that produces results that are valid out on the street, rather then some person with numerous degrees and published papers and who trains dogs in a ring. 

Here is some food for thought: If Pavlov’s dog was able to connect the dots and show the world that dogs can remember things, why do we think that they will not remember that they have gone to the bathroom in the house?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Pavlov's dog also got the ball rolling on operant and classical conditioning, which is what clicker training is. But it's not the same as the dog remembering it had an accident in the house...especially a puppy. There is nothing connecting such a memory to the dog. It's completely counter productive to scold a dog for something that's over and done with anyway, Either catch them in the act and correct, or let it go.


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## Guardian (May 17, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> If there is one thing we can, (I hope,) all agree on, is that if you constantly yell at your dog for what you don't want them to do and never show them what you WANT them to do, than you are only creating a fearful, confused dog. Just yesterday they picked up the floormat in the bathroom and there must have been a square foot on urine on it.


I can agree with you on this. If you constantly yell at your dog why on earth would it want to listen to you? However this goes the same for people who constantly talk baby to their dog. I believe in being less verbal and more about body language- the dogs watch me. I command once and will correct once as well (IMO it is over correcting that is abusive, not correcting itself). Oh and I always show them first how to do it, dogs need to be educated.

As for the spray bottle thing, that does not work for barking either. Chances are the dog barks for a reason-i.e. needs to go potty, bored, wants attention, etc. I have two dogs, one is a German Shepherd/Aussie/Husky and the other one is a GSP. Obviously these are high maintenance breeds in terms of exercise. My dogs are out playing/walking/running about 3 hours a day (I work outside and they come with me). They rarely ever bark unless there is an intruder at the back door, in which case I do allow barking to some extent.



4dogs3cats said:


> They dont usually all happen at the SAME time. We were being comical. You were being angry.
> 
> Why do you keep saying with no collar on. Whats the big deal about no collar on? Will YOUR dog obey you while wearing a dress?


Because that shows you how reliable the training is. Here is perhaps a more relevant example, take your dog in to a market where there are lots of people and things to see, smell, do. Take the leash and collar off and see if your dog obeys your commands. Or here is another one that I see often: take your dog off lead and go walking on a city street. Yes, I know there are leash laws, etc. But trust me on this-people do not have an issue with a well trained dog. Chances are you will not be caught and given a ticket-chances are your dog (if they are well trained) will go unnoticed! I live in the city of Toronto and there are plenty of money hungry city officers who are more then willing to hand out a $200 ticket to owners of dogs off lead. I live in the downtown core and can often be seen with one of my dogs offlead. No one says anything, infact when I approached a by-law officer to ask a question he even commented on how well behaved she is and made no issue of the fact that she was without lead/collar.

I will admit my dogs are not perfect. One is trained off lead and the other is still working on it. But I do plan on having both trained off lead that way they can enjoy the freedoms that every dog should have.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Giving somebody something for a job well done is NOT the same as going "Sit, sit, sit, SIT! HEY I'll give you THIS if you SIT!"
> 
> I expect immediate compliance, food/toy, or not.


Exactly!!

I went to a walk in training class on Thursday and there was a springer there, who was totally out of control. The owners had to continually ask her to do one command, but they would reward her regardless of whether she actually fully completed it; rewarding before the dog's butt is totally on the ground is only training her that 'if I give even a half effort, I get rewarded!'...and the owners did this over and over... she knew how to play the owner's and 'fake' THEM out!!! 

With my dog's, even in the beginning stages, I only treat when the cue has been fully completed by the dog. No compliance=no reward, whether that reward is praise, a toy, or a treat.


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## Ronda (Jul 18, 2007)

slydogges said:


> i'm not talking about other species. I'm talking about dogs. dogs are not whales, dolphins, rabbits, or whatever else you want to try to compare them to in order to believe this "positive reinforcement" crap.
> 
> 
> show me a video of your dogs working in obedience with no lead or collar in a very distracting enviroment, obeying your first command, every time you command, with no treats in sight. I will show you mine. If your method of training is reliable in the real world that we live in I would like to see it.
> ...


If my dogs didn't weigh over a hundred pounds, I could hold them on a mower, too. Ummmmmm the dog COULDN'T get away. Did you see his butt wiggling to try and get free? lol, that video was super cute though. I'm not saying you did anything wrong at all, but I mean, it isn't as though you trained the dog to run the mower, himself. 
I LOVE your farm, it is beautiful


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## slydogges (Jan 6, 2008)

it is imporant your dog be trained to where it has no lead for a collar because that is what training is for. Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped. 

that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog. you can tell it in his eyes hates being on a collar and lead as he obeys without it. It is remedial work for him and he knows it. dogs are not the stupid creatures people make them out to be. They are not humans, but they honestly tell you how they feel.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped.


Which is why my dog is trained in offleash work. Off leash is the SAME THING as being off collar...nothing is connecting me to my dog. But I'm not going to be foolish and take away the chance of SOMEBODY ELSE CATCHING HIM should he spook or have a "moment".

My dogs check in with me, an my dogs come, and yes, leashes and collars DO break, which is why I work my dogs off leash and break the physical connection. That is enough. I'm not taking off my dog's means of identification, nor am I going to take off something I can securely snap a leash to in the even that he does have an "Oh hey! I'm a dog!" moment.

It's irresponsible to do so...and just plain RUDE in other areas.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Which is why my dog is trained in offleash work. Off leash is the SAME THING as being off collar...nothing is connecting me to my dog. But I'm not going to be foolish and take away the chance of SOMEBODY ELSE CATCHING HIM should he spook or have a "moment".
> 
> My dogs check in with me, an my dogs come, and yes, leashes and collars DO break, which is why I work my dogs off leash and break the physical connection. That is enough. I'm not taking off my dog's means of identification, nor am I going to take off something I can securely snap a leash to in the even that he does have an "Oh hey! I'm a dog!" moment.
> 
> It's irresponsible to do so...and just plain RUDE in other areas.


Xeph
Well said, the problem here is that somebody will read slydogges's reply and actually think that's the way things should be(no leads/collars needed) Evidently her dogs are a lot smarter than a lot of the people I know (me included) who are known to make mistakes all the time. I do believe slydogges is young and has not had enough of those Murphy's Law incidents in life that come up and just slaps you silly and maybe you lose something near and dear to you because of bad life decisions.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Xeph
> Well said, the problem here is that somebody will read slydogges's reply and actually think that's the way things should be(no leads/collars needed) Evidently her dogs are a lot smarter than a lot of the people I know (me included) who are known to make mistakes all the time. I do believe slydogges is young and has not had enough of those Murphy's Law incidents in life that come up and just slaps you silly and maybe you lose something near and dear to you because of bad life decisions.


Or perhaps it's just an idealistic 'throw' to all of us who obviously don't have a clue how to train and achieve well trained or titled dogs...I think the titles speak for themselves...from CGC to UDX!!!!  

She hasn't mentioned whether hers even have a CGC...which if they are so 'well trained', they SHOULD have!!! 



slydogges said:


> it is imporant your dog be trained to where it has no lead for a collar because that is what training is for. Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped.
> 
> that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog. you can tell it in his eyes hates being on a collar and lead as he obeys without it. It is remedial work for him and he knows it. dogs are not the stupid creatures people make them out to be. They are not humans, but they honestly tell you how they feel.


Your dog doesn't 'hate' being on a lead...he probably just plain isn't used to it...it's you that makes it like he hates it...he is reading 'your opinion' of the deal...

A collar isn't going to break if a dog is properly trained to walk with you...I can walk my girl with something as simple as fish line...sound's like your 'hateful leash trained dogs' probably wouldn't be so light on the lead; a dog that 'hates' something, is going to rebel against it at some point. Plus, places that do allow pets have signs that say "pets on leash are welcome"...if anything happens with your off lead dog, you could get alot of other complient people in trouble, and get pets 'kicked out' of such fine places. 

To me it sounds like you are just an idealistic teenager who keeps arguing with people, just because they don't agree with "your" method...you aren't a professional, so tell me, why should we listen to you either? There MANY ways to train a pet, and MANY ways to get desired results such as off lead work... Give me proof that your methods work consistantly ACROSS THE BOARD with EVERY breed type out there, and then, maybe then, I will give a bit of ear to what you are claiming...

May you get a dog that will not respond to simple praise, and you HAVE to discover other ways to get your desired result; of course, your attitude depicts to me that you would simply coin the dog as stupid, and rehome it, put it down, or otherwise get rid of it, so you can find a dog who 'will' obey your every whim with just a praise reward.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I will NEVER take my dogs in public with no collar on. If anyone disagrees with me, why dont you head over to Digitsmama's thread- Digit's missing- hurts so bad.

The collar is a way to identify the dog. You can't control everyone. Even if you control your dog, what happens if someone grans it, and runs off? Then dumps the dog somewhere, and some nice person finds it.. I'm not going to lessen my chances of getting my dog back just to boost MY ego.


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## missmolly (May 29, 2008)

Slydogges, why do you do 4H if you could care less about AKC events. I'd say 4H is even more pitiful. Your anger and strong language reminds me of some Richling trash talk.

slydogges, who is your trainer that you work with?

slydogges, who is your trainer that you work with?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

If your dog is well trained, the dog should not care if the lead is on or off. Fact is, the dog I told you about with the hay wagon fire did not wear a collar for 10 years of her 14 year life. 

Interestingly, Leslie McDevitt discusses leads in her book, "Control Unleashed" and says the leash should be no big deal. Dog should not act differently with it on or with it off because you have the dog's focus. 

Most dogs go, "WEE WEE i am FREEEE!" when they leash is off and that means you ahve not trained them properly off leash or on leash. IOW's the dog should not hate the leash if you have trained the dog properly. 

In my other thread I have opted to eliminate the leash in my training. Mostly have anyway but now, due to my own development of a physical problem, I am required to. 

However, my dog does wear a collar with ID and rabies tag on it (rabies is law in NY). She is also PR trained. Due to my current ailment, I have been having a lot of visitors to my house and have taken her in some very distracting places.. and she has been very very good and there has been NO leash. At 16 months old I train for perfection but, on occaision, I don't get it. Usually due to duration and she is not up to that duration level yet. However, she is very good and I simply put her back to where she was and repeat the command. It only takes ONE time at this point so I know that we are on the verge of her not breaking a command ever. Time frame is about the same as with my last dog. 

We are going for our CGC soon.. and TDI.. if I can just get well myself. We are then going to proceed with sheep dog training and agility in addition to all the nice pet dog stuff where we go places and she behaves well etc. Just good obedience things. I am also training her to do a few tricks.. keeps her mentally motivated. I am teaching her her left feet from her right feet right now.. and placement of a particular foot on or in an object. She begs for these training sessions. 

Now if I could teach her to take dictation and type on the 'puter I would be all set.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

slydogges said:


> it is imporant your dog be trained to where it has no lead for a collar because that is what training is for. *Leads and collars break. they come off, they get dropped. *
> that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog. *you can tell it in his eyes hates being on a collar *and lead as he obeys without it. It is remedial work for him and he knows it. dogs are not the stupid creatures people make them out to be. They are not humans, but they honestly tell you how they feel.


Ok, I've stayed out of this, but this just keep annoying me....


Im sorry but i've never dropped a lead or had a lead or collar break.

What kind of *cheap collars and leads* are you using for them to break? Why on earth would a person *like you* who is so focused on their dog *ever* drop a lead? 

I think your banking on this statement too much as you keep repeating it like a broken record.


Taking your dog off collar is irresponsible, rude and illegal. I don't care how well your dog is trained _it is not your right to inflict your off leashed dog on the public_. If i saw a powerful breed being walked off leash i would not only be angry, but frightened. Most people don't appreciate the sight of a large off leash dog walking toward them.

Your practically asking for someone to mace your dog.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, like I said b4.. the only time I use a leash is when it is legally required. However, the other side to this, and I don't believe Slydogges does this, is that when I am in a public place and my dog is off lead she is also at heel. She walks next to me as if there were a two foot lead on her collar. 

However, in situations where there is a leash law, yes, a leash has to be on the dog. 

Anyone who has a dog off leash in a public, non dog park or non dog event situation should have the dog at heel, not running willy nilly up to anyone or going all over the place. Anything else IS rude.


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## missmolly (May 29, 2008)

Reading this post has made me go back and read some other posts on other forums because reading slydogges posts remind me of the training of Richling K9. I have some friends in Louisville who worked with him for a short while until they realized they simply abused dogs to get them to comply. I have heard rumors that he is training again in KY and the local clubs and humane societies in Louisville, Lexington, Cincinnatti, Owensboro, Evansiville are getting ready to take out ads in the newspapers to tell of the abusive training going on at Richling K9, Indian Point K9, and Liberty K9 where his training in employed. There is a big push going on right now to put them out of business.


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## Guardian (May 17, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> Taking your dog off collar is irresponsible, rude and illegal. I don't care how well your dog is trained _it is not your right to inflict your off leashed dog on the public_. If i saw a powerful breed being walked off leash i would not only be angry, but frightened. Most people don't appreciate the sight of a large off leash dog walking toward them.
> 
> Your practically asking for someone to mace your dog.


I think you missed what sly said:



> that's why I walk into a store and if people don't have an issue I take all equipment off my dog


My interpretation of this is that Sly asks the store owners. A store is a private property and thus the owners decides what flies and what does not. If enough customers complain a decent store owner will ask sly to leash the dog. However it has been my experience that not many people will even notice the dog off leash. With my older dog I have done this and I have gotten many compliments and remarks about her good behaviour off leash. 

As for in public places, well to tell you the truth I usually walk her on lead unless we are heading to the park. I live on a busy main street in Toronto, ON, Canada. Our local dog park is 15 minutes away. If I am bringing both dogs with me to the park, I would leash the older one up-just because I believe it helps teach the younger one what is expected on lead.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Guardian said:


> I think you missed what sly said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




People walk into stores all the time, they leave too. Does this person actually stand at the door and ask every person coming in "this ok with you?" 

Personally i have encountered many people who are as terrified of dogs as you'd think a person would be on snakes. 

I have had people, scream, run, and say many a nasty thing. Keep in mind i run a _pet store_ and my dog is tied up. Hes not huge. So there is no reason to be surprised at the presence of a dog. Yet some people react very badly. 

People have fight or flight just like animals and all you have to do is startle the wrong person. I've seen a mail carrier mace a dog that was off lead but was in control, and just sitting there. She walked over to him and hit him in the face with it.

I have had children run up very quickly from behind and try to climb onto my dog. I have had children run up and grab or even try to hit my dog. One child ran up and pulled his tail and ran off. 


YOu can know what your dog will do, but _you can't predict what people or children will do. _ Hence my mace comment.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I agree with the mace thing - I am a complete dog lover, but for many years of my life I was terrified on them. Even since I got my dog I have called AC to come get off lead dogs running around my area. I'm not going to risk myself or Sadie around a dog I don't know that is not restrained. 

If I didn't have Sadie, I'd probably still be a lot more terrified around dogs. Now as it is I can try to find a collar on them, but when they don't have it or they won't come close enough to me, I have AC on my cell, because it's dangerous for the dog, MY dog, MYSELF, and my neighbors (our person AND our property).

The argument that most people will not notice I think is untrue. Everyone notices dogs in a pet store. Either because they like dogs, or they don't. Not that many people are ambivalent about dogs and won't see them. However, not everyone is going to complain. They might just leave. I hate going into the store and having people let their dogs run around on a rectractable and not control them. Am I going to complain to the staff? No, I'm going to glare at them and walk around them. If it got real bad I'd say something but I'm not a big complainer when it comes to that stuff. It'd still really bother me to encounter an off lead dog in a store, especially when you're allowed to bring on-lead dogs in. What if I walked in with my dog on leash? That's a dangerous situation!!


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## Witch Hunt (Jun 3, 2008)

Your own words: _By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws._

I think a few of you should read your own rules. 

I don't normally respond or read these types of forums since I believe that most people on them are never who/what they appear. We can all be so much cooler on line. BUT, since I feel I have been personally attacked with no provocation from this site I will respond....as myself.

My name is Carla Gray and I am the owner/trainer of Indian Point Dog Training. I didn't even know you people existed until a friend of mine informed me that my business had been named as one you would try to have shut down, etc. Who do you think you are? You don't know me or anything about me. You have never been to one of my classes or to my facility. 

I have never done anything illegal and have never harmed a dog in my life. Just because I don't believe in using treats, clickers, halti's, gentle leaders, etc. makes me neither cruel, nor anyone who should be the target of such a Witch Hunt. You are the same type of people that are trying to shut down Milan, the Monks of New Skeet, and anyone else who doesn't subscribe to your particular mindset. When people like you have saved as many dogs from death/shelters, etc. as these individuals, then you can tell me how concerned you are about a dog. Until then I suggest you keep talking amongst yourselves and feel very self-satisfied that your dogs will perform in little rings and living rooms. I think one of you said you take your dogs to off leash dog parks....there are plenty of videos out there to show how safe and humane that is, right? yeah, tell that to the owners of dogs that have been attacked and severely injured or killed by dogs taken to places like this to "socialize" them. 

I trained one dog in PR and I have participated in sport agility classes where as we know it is totally based on treats and, yes, bribes/lures. Never did I attack them or threaten to try to get them shut down. Though that is certainly what I think should happen to these obedience classes that are such a scam on the public. I consdered Our classes are full of dogs these methods failed. The thing is most people just go away and keep their mouths shut. Never demanding their money back for a service that was a total scam. I just tell people when these methods fail their dogs to call me. Oh I know you are all appalled that these methods don't work for every dog....and if they don't....let's just put this one down and get another one. This keeps the shelters and breeders busy for sure. 

I do not argue on these forums, nor do I feel the need to defend myself. I invite any and all of you to come out and visit. You will find nothing inhumane or illegal. That is ridiculous. I will never apologize for using traditional methods of training. Yep, I said "traditional" where dogs are given the respect and dignity of being treated as such. When someone walks into my class with an 85 pound Weimeraner that a grown man can't control and a 9 year old walks the same dog out of my class...that is success to me. AND...not a drop of blood to show for it! It should not take days, weeks, or months to get a dog to walk on a leash without pulling your shoulder out of socket. That is insanity and inhumane to the dog as well. 

In closing, you can all sit here and argue with a 17 year old kid or people who have very little training experience and like to stir the pot and get you guys all up in arms, or you can actually look into things before you become hateful, threatening, etc. I have no fear of the Humane Society coming to my training field, my students would laugh themselves silly. We use our wicked training methods at secret places like Lowes, Bass Pro Shops, Meijers, WalMart, etc. Tonight we took them to a special event at the ballpark and were highly complimented by, guess who, The Humane Society personnel. One of our students was previously asked to join their Behavior Training classes. Your assertions are laughable and ignorant.

Also, I think a lot of this comes from my former personal trainer and your opinion of him. That is fine also, think what you want. I may not like Harvard trained lawyers, but if they can win my case it really doesn't matter.

Carla Gray
www.indianpointdogtraining.com


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I do not argue on these forums, nor do I feel the need to defend myself.


Clearly you do, or you wouldn't have posted in the first place. I don't recall seeing your facility mentioned anywhere.

And the only way PR training is a "Scam" is if the trainer is unknowledgable or if the OWNERS DON'T KEEP UP WITH THE TRAINING


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Clearly you do, or you wouldn't have posted in the first place. *I don't recall seeing your facility mentioned anywhere*.
> 
> And the only way PR training is a "Scam" is if the trainer is unknowledgable or if the OWNERS DON'T KEEP UP WITH THE TRAINING


I noticed that too, but thought i might have skipped a post or two... Glad its not just me....


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## Witch Hunt (Jun 3, 2008)

missmolly said:


> Reading this post has made me go back and read some other posts on other forums because reading slydogges posts remind me of the training of Richling K9. I have some friends in Louisville who worked with him for a short while until they realized they simply abused dogs to get them to comply. I have heard rumors that he is training again in KY and the local clubs and humane societies in Louisville, Lexington, Cincinnatti, Owensboro, Evansiville are getting ready to take out ads in the newspapers to tell of the abusive training going on at Richling K9, *Indian Point K9,* and Liberty K9 where his training in employed. There is a big push going on right now to put them out of business.



Once again, I do believe my facility IS mentioned in the above post....wouldn't you agree? Would you not feel attacked?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

And before the mentioning of Indian Point K9 it is said that th eperson heard rumors.

Would I feel attacked? No. Annoyed? Certainly. But I would feel secure enough in my training methods not to worry about it unless directly approached.


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