# Historic pics of your breed



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Spicy's thread reminded me that we did this on another forum. It was pretty cool. So add your historic pics!

Here's a pic from I think the 1500s 










Then a modern phalene (for those not familiar, the Phalene is the drop eared version of the Continental Toy Spaniel, and the papillon is the erect eared version):










That's pretty crazy to me.

A couple more pics:










Fist pic depicting erect ears (1600s ?) I am so glad my dogs don't look like this, lol










More coming...


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Some of the first papillons to enter the US with writer Edith Wharton:










GB Ch Gamin de Flandre - 1923










Interesting both of those pics above depict solid colored dogs which are no longer found in the breed. (Written out of the standard completely in 1975)

First AKC BIS winner- 1930's - I think his name was Black Diamond something...










Breed specialty in the 50s


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I'll just leave this up to you, Laurelin XD

I love seeing old paintings of Papillons, though! Especially pictures where they look like little spaniels, almost like they could have been used as a hunting dog at one point, but the hunter's wife wanted a lapdog, lol!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ch Datsa of Springhaven - 1948










Another painting, dunno when (1400-1600s likely:










Border collies.

Old Hemp, generally considered one of the most important dogs in the breed's founding:










Wiston Cap - 1970s


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Nargle said:


> I'll just leave this up to you, Laurelin XD
> 
> I love seeing old paintings of Papillons, though! Especially pictures where they look like little spaniels, almost like they could have been used as a hunting dog at one point, but the hunter's wife wanted a lapdog, lol!


It really seems like they've been pretty small for a long long time. They're ridiculously old and it's pretty interesting the old paintings look almost exactly like modern phalenes. 

Here's another early erect eared dog:










The erect eared paintings really debunk the theory that chihuahua was crossed in. Erect eared dogs appear occasionally in paintings before the spanish brought chihuahuas back to europe. 

And a few shelties. They're really quite different looking.

Lerwick Jarl:










Fipinella of Mountfort (1919)










En Ch Walesby Select- 1919










Okay I'm done with my breeds lol. I have a lot more but they're basically the same thing.


----------



## KelliCZ (Aug 1, 2008)

Dobermans from the 1890's 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4IoctA4vtc&feature=player_embedded


This web site has dobes by the decade 

http://www.dobermann-pedigrees.com/index2.htm


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

This is one of the major founding Sires of the Breed

Kechara's Great Great Great Great Grandsire (on her fathers side)
Hawkeye's Great Great Great Great Great Grandsire (on both his fathers and mothers sides)
Jack has no relation










Next 1800's Old West America (unnamed Mutts Of the Australian Shepherd Beginnings)



























More to come


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Nargle (and anyone else interested!) The PCA has_ tons_ and tons of paintings in their gallery from the 1400's-1800s of old paps and phalenes.

http://www.papillonclub.org/History/PhotoGallery-OldMasters.html

Tons of good stuff there.

They also have a gallery of every BIS winner in the breed's history:

http://www.papillonclub.org/History/BIS-p1.html

Ironically the first AKC BIS for a phalene happened this year in 2009. 

One of my favorites, UFO:


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

An Old Relative of My Dogs His real name was Stub too not just his stage name hehe









Late 1910's









1940's Sisler's Dogs His lines still run strong (yep that's Stub again) This is when the Aussie first started to become known as a breed.










Another Relative.









More to come if people want them.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Keechak said:


> More to come if people want them.


Please do! I loooove the old pics. It's fascinating to me.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

This is a great idea. I did this on another forum also. 

I like to see any breeds historic photos, especially when it goes across decades or more of time. 

It is interesting how some breeds remain similar in looks and others have had a drastic change. 

I will add some photos here too, maybe a little more organized and with dog info.


----------



## KelliCZ (Aug 1, 2008)

I really need to get a scanner - This is a picture of a 1936 magazine


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Laslie Sister to Shiloh


























Thats all for now


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Spicy1_VV said:


> This is a great idea. I did this on another forum also.
> 
> I like to see any breeds historic photos, especially when it goes across decades or more of time.
> 
> ...


That always fascinates me too. Why do some breeds change so much and others don't?

It also intrigues me that some breeds are so much older than others. Some of our 'staple' breeds are not old at all. Taking my two favorite breeds for example, the border collie is only about 150 years old and the papillon as a breed is 600+ years old with the toy spaniels as a group going back about a thousand years. Then of course there are breeds that are thousands of years old.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Since Laurelin's got Papillons covered, I'll post some pictures of old Spitz type dogs, because I've always liked Spitzes =D


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

and then there is the Aussie that has been a breed for only around 70 years

Lauralin there is one old picture in the AKC breed book 20th edition named "Dog with a Ball" by Malcom S. Tucker 1890 it is a _beautiful_ picture of a solid red Pap with Irish White.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> That always fascinates me too. Why do some breeds change so much and others don't?
> 
> It also intrigues me that some breeds are so much older than others. Some of our 'staple' breeds are not old at all. Taking my two favorite breeds for example, the border collie is only about 150 years old and the papillon as a breed is 600+ years old with the toy spaniels as a group going back about a thousand years. Then of course there are breeds that are thousands of years old.


I know what you mean about the staple breeds. GSD comes to mind.

Here is a neat pic I put together









Baso is in his 6th
They look a lot alike though


----------



## Jennyfur (Oct 14, 2009)

The Chinook breed originated in 1917, so I don't have to go too far back!

From http://www.chinook.org/history.html:



> Arthur Walden's famed lead dog, Chinook, was born in New Hampshire on January 17, 1917. He was tawny with a black mask and descended from mixed parentage. His dam was a Greenland Husky, his sire, a large tawny, Mastiff/St. Bernard-type dog. Chinook had the intelligence, power, endurance, speed, and friendly nature that Walden was trying to develop in a sled dog. He was a great lead dog, but was also known for his gentle disposition toward children.
> 
> Chinook was bred to German Shepherd Dogs and Belgian Sheepdogs (at this time, all varieties were considered the same breed) from working backgrounds, Canadian Eskimo dogs, and perhaps other breeds. These offspring were bred back to Chinook, and to each other to create the Chinook breed. He was considered a sport of nature because he sired pups that resembled himself in size, color, drive and intelligence.


Here's a picture of Chinook himself:










And here's a picture of my puppy's mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother:










The Norwegian Buhund reputedly traveled with the Vikings over 1,000 years ago, but I can't find a historical picture. So instead, I present to you a picture of my own Bu:


----------



## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Here are some Bostons



















Here is one of the fist Bostons circa 1890's


----------



## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Pugs









*1730*









Joséphine de Beauharnais ..Napoleon's wife










1786


----------



## kspdogs2 (Oct 13, 2009)

pugmom said:


> Here are some Bostons
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I just love Bostons and Pugs ! I have 2 Bostons and 5 pugs 2 black and 3 fawns .


----------



## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

First the Yorkshire Terrier:



















That's an Italian Greyhound next to the terrier. Shows how big they used to be!



















more...


----------



## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

He's considered the 'father' of the breed










Now Great Danes:



















More...


----------



## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

This is from 1381!


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

> That's an Italian Greyhound next to the terrier. Shows how big they used to be!


I'm not sure I see much difference in size between then and now. maybe a couple pounds.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Great thread and great to see what the history of all these breeds is.

Heres a few historical Staffordshire bull terrier photos dating from the 1900's...

1st up a "bull and terrier" cross before any of the pit bull type breeds were created..









A painting of SBT bull baiting..









The 1st ever Champion SBT.. CH Gentleman Jim and CH Lady Eve









One of Gentleman Jim i really like..









more..


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

red rum









Stowgate pride with his owner Jim Mallen..









CH Tawny of Drugade..









The Bomber..


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

CH Lady eve with owner Joe Dunn









Game Lad..









I love this photo it looks just like some old ones my nan has 









lastly another with CH GJ and CH lady eve


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

crzy_brunette77 said:


> This is from 1381!


This dog is what i'd imagine the Alaunts to look like maybe.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> Lauralin there is one old picture in the AKC breed book 20th edition named "Dog with a Ball" by Malcom S. Tucker 1890 it is a beautiful picture of a solid red Pap with Irish White.


That would be really interesting to see! I've only ever been able to find those two photos (as opposed to paintings) of solid dogs. I'm really not sure why we don't still have solids in the breed but it was written out of the standard in the 1970s and the only pics I can find of solid dogs are from the 1920s.


----------



## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

A surviving picture of Buccleuch Avon (b.1885), the foundational dog of many modern Labradors










Ben of Hyde (b.1899), the first recognised yellow Labrador


----------



## HayleyMarie (Dec 22, 2008)

So aparently westies came from the White ospring of the cairn terrier, but they were killed because only the dark colored ones were wanted. In the 1800's Colonel Malcolm of Poltalloch accidently shot his own dark colored cairn terrier mistaking it for wild game, and after that he swore only to breed white cairns.]









Probably the most famous Westie painting of the late nineteenth century painted Sir Edwin Henry Landseer. 









"The Warrener's Pony and Terrier and Puppy" John Emms 1876









1899


----------



## spugs (May 4, 2009)

Love this thread, it was only last week I was googling trying to find some pics of papillons in paintings etc. The solid ones are lovely, I wonder why they bred it out? They look a lot like a long haired chi. The faces on some of the earlier ones dont seem to have the white blaze either. Its really interesting how they've changed


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spugs said:


> Love this thread, it was only last week I was googling trying to find some pics of papillons in paintings etc. The solid ones are lovely, I wonder why they bred it out? They look a lot like a long haired chi. The faces on some of the earlier ones dont seem to have the white blaze either. Its really interesting how they've changed


There are still lots of modern paps that have no blaze (like my Rose for example). I know solid heads though are a lot more common over here in the US than they are in the UK where you are. They're a lot more picky about markings there than they are here. 

I don't know why the completely solid dogs disappeared though. I may go ask on my list serve. Solids are still found in almost every other spaniel breed.


----------



## ScottyttocS (Sep 24, 2009)

Would love to join in but I have no idea what my pup is! lol


----------



## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

This is a great thread!

Here's King Cob circa 1838, England. He's pretty much start point of the modern racing greyhound. The first successful public stud dog.









My personal favorite greyhound from history: Master McGrath circa 1868. The first Irish greyhound to win the Waterloo Cup. And he did it three times. Here you see him depicted in an artist's rendering









And an actual photo of Master McGrath









Functional/Working Greyhounds haven't changed much throughout history. This is Harmonicon from 1913


----------



## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

This is a dog from the NGA Hall of Fame for racing greyhounds and important sire, Tell You Why*









Rural Rube, also in the Hall of Fame, 1913









This is a very early Celtic rendition of a vertragus from 500 *BC* - the earliest greyhounds. Despite what you may have heard or read, the greyhound is a Celtic breed, NOT a desert, Egyptian or Arabian breed.


----------



## MakeShift Heart (Sep 12, 2009)

Aww no poodles  And I don't have any old pics of poodles either lol


----------



## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

lovemygreys said:


> This is a very early Celtic rendition of a vertragus from 500 *BC* - the earliest greyhounds. Despite what you may have heard or read, the greyhound is a Celtic breed, NOT a desert, Egyptian or Arabian breed.



I have always wondered about that because while looking at Celtic designs you see dog depicted that are very Greyhound looking


----------



## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

pugmom said:


> I have always wondered about that because while looking at Celtic designs you see dog depicted that are very Greyhound looking


That is very interesting! I LOVE greyhounds.


----------



## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Keechak said:


> I'm not sure I see much difference in size between then and now. maybe a couple pounds.


Italian greyhounds are 8 to 18 inches high and 8-18 lbs while Yorkie's are 6-7 inches and 3-7 lbs. Maybe it's just me but in that picture the Yorkshire and the IG seem more comparble size wise (IG is only a little taller) then nowadays.


----------



## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I have always wondered about that because while looking at Celtic designs you see dog depicted that are very Greyhound looking


Yes, in fact the greyhound is still an important part of Irish life (coursing and racing). The Ancient Celts actually coursed the dogs for fun and sport...a tradition we still do (and enjoy!) with them today. The vertragus (precursor to the greyhound) migrated from the Celts to Rome where they replaced a lot of the molossar and laconian type dogs for hunting. The vertragus was much more adept at hunting things like rabbit. The greyhounds were actually able to catch the game 

It's a peeve of mine when greyhound owners say there are depictions of them in the pyramids so the gh is one of the oldest breeds. Probably the precursor to the saluki, not the greyhound. Personally, I don't care whether or not the greyhound is 'the oldest' breed of dog, that so many breeds seem to strive to claim. I'm interested in their real history. I do think it's pretty cool to see breeds that are pretty much unchanged in their form and function for thousands of years. Our hounds tell me that you can't improve on perfection LOL


----------



## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

The ancestor of the beagle-









Early forms of the beagle-


















The early early original stock dogs once they started refining the breed-


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Lots of Beagles!










*The Gas House Dog 9xw* 1870 
Conditioned at 31lbs









*CH Charlie Lloyd's Pilot* 1878
Imported









*GR CH Richmond 8xw*
Imported









*Delihant's Paddy 5xw* 1900
bred down from CH Pilot


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

*King Paddy* 1909
Son of Delihant's Paddy, grand son of Richmond on bottom
King Paddy competed in a English Bull Terrier bench show taking a first place.









*Colby's Galtie* 1910
Of Irish breeding, born of imported parents 









*Colby's Pincher 24xw* 1896
Pincher was a larger dog, conditioned at 56lbs
His sire (Jack White's) Teddy 2xw was a grand son of CH Pilot and CH Paddy. 
His dam was CH Colby's Pansy









*Colby's Tige 2xw* 1896
Conditioned 35lbs
CH Colby's Paddy x Colby's Jennie 1xw
He went over 3hrs in a well known battle


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

*GR CH Clark's Tramp aka Armitage's Kager* 1914
Conditioned at 48lbs
Grandson of Pincher
Bred multiple times on Tige 2xw and GR CH Duffy's Jack









*CH Tudor's Fighting Peter *
Son of Galtie, dam Colby's Nancy was line bred on Tige.
He was the first UKC fighting champion, conditioned at 33-34lbs.
Tudor went on to win many UKC matches with several dogs. 









*CH Ferguson's Centipede*
An Old Family Red dog with a lot of Colby/Lightner blood. A dog of good intelligence and temperament.
His sire Red Devil is a grand son of CH Fighting Peter, Red Devil is also his great grand sire on bottom. 
Centipede is the sire of GR CH Williams' Red 8xw who was conditioned at 50lbs and Wallace's Red Rustler when bred to his daughter. 
He is also the sire of Hemphill's Flame and many other dogs seen in the OFRN pedigrees









*Wallace's Searcy Jeff* 1940
Conditioned at 39lbs
Grandson of Harvey's Red Devil


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

*Colby's Primo* 1935
His sire was double bred Colby's Galtie
Primo was registered with both the UKC & ADBA and was also one of the early APBTs registered with the ACK as a Staffordshire Terrier. He is said to be the basis of the original AmStaff standard. 









*Fly Of Panama*
Goes back to a lot of Colby blood









*Corvino's Gimp*
Dam was Fly Of Panama
Sire was heavy bred Feeley









*CH Tudor's Dibo Rom* 1951
Grandson of Hubbard's Gimp (Corvino's Gimp x Corvino/Tudor's Goldie)
Dibo is brother to CH Heinzl's Arizona Pete and CH Tudor's Lil
He is also a major foundation dog for many APBT/bloodlines such as GR CH Zebo and Eli 2xw (who was the foundation for many himeself)
Some of his offspring include CH Spike, Buck 2xw, Blind Billy 1xw, 1xl, CH Cracker 1xl, CH Jeff, CH Clancy, CH Topper, GR CH White Rock, CH Red Bill, CH Sandri, CH Cry Baby and others


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Retrievers...




































http://www.grca.org


----------



## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

Here are the Miniature Schnauzers .. The original name were changed over the years "Zwergschnauzer" & "Wirehaired Pinscher"

Here's Pt 1


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

And for posterity...

An old picture of a mutt


----------



## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

Pt 2


----------



## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

Pt 3


----------



## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

Pt 4 Last batch of pictures of Miniature Schnauzers


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I can't seem to find any Chihuahua pics...


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

A few more Pug images. 

1872









1865









1853









1804


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

MoonStr80 said:


>


I like this one, you can really see the affenpinscher influence in them.


----------



## ChrisS (Aug 19, 2009)

I find the history behind the fox red labs interesting. I didn't know anything about them before researching when I was looking for my boy. The 1st yellow labs were actually closer to this color than the modern light yellow color most often seen today. 

King George V1 and Queen Elizabeth with their dark yellow Labrador in the 1920's









Ch Wynfaul Tobasco the father of the modern fox red Labrador.









Balrion Red Alert, one of the 1st fox red labs to cross the ocean to the US









I borrowed these pics and facts from http://www.littleriverlabs.com/foxred.htm


----------



## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Here you go Chihuahua people ...you were right they were more difficult to find.

1900









1901









1902-1903?


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

For anyone interested in the Cavalier King Charles, the breed was resurrected using this dog as a model. I hope this works.

 

His name was Ann's Son and he was born in the 20s. According to some old time breeders "in the know", he was more likely sired by a tricolor Phalene than by the King Charles sire intended for his dam (his breeder housed both breeds). The litters recorded pedigree is also now known to be a genetic impossibility as Ann's son had a tricolor litter sister, which can't happen from a blenheim x blenheim pairing.

From Shealagh Waters, long established breeder of King Charles and Cavalier King Charles Spaniels.

_"No other breed has been given the name of a King of England

But we are no more short faced Cavaliers than Cavaliers are long nosed King Charles Spaniels. 

I think the often repeated myth that Cavaliers were were bred entirely from mating together short nosed King Charles Spaniels perpetuates this idea. 

Anns Son the dog on whom the Cavalier King Charles Breed Standard was drawn was, in fact, a Papillion x King Charles Spaniel cross mating (This was verified by Mrs Phyliss Watson with cared for Anns son for over 8 years worked for Mrs Raymond Mallock Ashtonmore." _

http://www.shealagh.fsnet.co.uk/King Charles Spaniel.html

_"While some have denied this, there was most likely some mixing of other breeds in the early days. In fact it is said that the famous Ann’s Son, winner of the special “old type” class at Crufts 3 times and who was the living model when the breed standard was drawn up, was out of a tri King Charles Spaniel bitch but sired by a Papillon. Other breeds that have been suggested as being used in the earlier development of the breed were the Welsh Springer, Dachshund and English Cocker"_

http://rhiannoncavaliers.blogspot.com/

Ann's Son's "in dispute" pedigree can be found on this page: http://www.arkwebshost.com/nonprofit/cavalierkcsuk/Cavalier_King_Charles_Spaniel_History.shtml


There is some great info on Cocker Spaniels here, and the two pictured at the top of the page look like an unregistered Cocker (or mix) I had a long time ago that sparked my love of small spaniels.

http://www.spanieljournal.com/bkolehouse.html


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> For anyone interested in the Cavalier King Charles, the breed was resurrected using this dog as a model. I hope this works.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, that's really interesting! I wasn't aware that the Cavalier was a recreation of an older breed. I assumed it had come from a similar ancestry as the papillon.


----------



## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

Herey you go! Who asked for Chihuahua I think Historical pictures itself are very hard to find in general


----------



## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

One more ...


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Great thread! Hard to believe no one’s done German shepherds yet, so I guess I’ll post some pictures. Because I’m lazy, all of these dogs are pulled off from Trent’s pedigree, so not necessarily dogs that have made a huge impact on the breed.

I’ve listed them by their date of birth. These are what “old style German shepherds” truly are – 

1990s

Duarto








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/17395.html

1980s

Marko








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/12274.html

1970s

Wanko








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1725.html

Iwan








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/2362.html


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

1960s

1971 BSP Sieger V Racker vom Itztal SchH3 FH KKL1








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/3291.html

Pollux








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1519.html


VA3 Bernd vom Lierberg SchH3 FH KKL1








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/187.html


1950s

Arko








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/7314.html


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

1940s

Pirol








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/2136.html

Lex








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/517.html


1930s

Gockel








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/691.html

Irma








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/4795.html


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

1920s

VA1 Sieger Ch. Klodo vom Boxberg KKL1








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/920.html


1910s

VA Sieger Grand Victor Ch. Erich vom Grafenwerth SchH3 PH KKL1








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/976.html


1900s

Roland (black German shepherd!)








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1120.html



Annnd *drumroll*….
Horand von Grafrath








http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/1208.html


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Wow, that's really interesting! I wasn't aware that the Cavalier was a recreation of an older breed. I assumed it had come from a similar ancestry as the papillon.


You shouldn’t have asked . . . no really . . . you shouldn’t have . . . *VBG*.

The original King Charles Spaniel and the Phalene DID share a lot of common ancestry up until the mid 1800s. At that point the King Charles Spaniel looked like this.










There were also small sporting spaniels that looked a lot like the “Toy Spaniel”, and they were also called King Charles Spaniels. They did have a lot of "Cocking" Spaniel blood in them but they were small - 15-20 lbs. often.

cont->


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

. . . One was the Marlborough or Blenheim Spaniel. (Some believe the Blenheim Spaniel did have some infusion of Toy Spaniel in his blood).



The Sussex Spaniel was another small sporting spaniel sometimes mistakenly called the King Charles Spaniel.




From the mid 1800s onward, the dome headed dogs were more fashionable, and the dome head and short muzzle were selected for. It is also accepted that those that bred the King Charles mixed their toy dogs with Japanese Spaniels, (and some say Pekingese and Pugs) to get the brachycephalic face. This was at least the second time Japanese Spaniels had influenced the European Toy Spaniel, the first being when Captain Saris returned with some in 1613. Catherine of Braganza, bride of King Charles II, also brought some with her from Portugal as part of a dowry gift (1662).





cont->


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Here is a painting from 1867 of a King Charles Spaniel which has obviously been influenced by a Pekingesish type dog – even though not one member of the Pekingese breed had officially been bred in Europe, and the first official Pekingese – Looty – had just recently been gifted to Queen Victoria.



Toward the end of the Century the King Charles changed and looked like this,



And then at the end of it all this,





This is an interesting quote from Alicia Pennington in the 1930s.

_“The Royal Courts and Ducal houses all had their own strains of toy spaniels. In fact, one Duke of Norfolk used to feed his surplus King Charles pups to his pet eagles!

There have always been short-muzzled, round-headed little spaniels. Evolution and selective breeding over the centuries, culminating in the more intensive breeding of the nineteenth century, have set the standard we know today.”_

In 1926 Roswell Eldridge offered a monetary prize for someone who would breed back the type of King Charles found in the painting of old . . . . the Phalene would have been the obvious candidate to work from, but at the time it too had fallen out of favor and been mostly replaced by the Butterfly eared Papillon.

The Cavalier breed was then resurrected, and although some would love to believe it was from just the - now out of favor - longer muzzled King Charles Spaniels, too many others know this was not the case. Besides the obviously mistaken pedigree behind the breed founder, Ann’s Son, there is also on record at least one Cocker Spaniel by the name of Suntop Joyful whose descendants later went on to be Australian and German Champions. Suntop Franconia is the daughter of Suntop Joyful, and you can see her in this pedigree. 

http://dhvg.ckcs-kcs.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/geneal_EN.pl?op=tree&index=XC28F432&gens=5&db=CKCS.dbw

On forums older breeders openly admit to “new blood” coming into Cavalier through the 20s, 30s and 40s. I understand Barbara Garnett has a wonderful Cavalier art book which shows the huge variation in type still long after the breed was given its own name. (The book is on my Christmas list).

At the time the breed was resurrected there was also a big furor about it and about the fact that the breeders would never be able to get the “type” right. In fact recreating the original small size was a problem, as breeders were breeding on a false foundation. Mistakenly* it was thought that the larger blenheim or Marlborough spaniel had contributed greatly to the original toy spaniel, and lots of those were used in the new Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. 

*Robert Leighton and Neville Lytton write about this extensively, sure that the Blenheim/Marlborough Spaniels came long after the Toy Spaniels and were not of the same type bred forward from ancient toy dog lines, but of a similar looking but larger type, bred down from sporting spaniels.

This is from Lady Wentworth in 1937:

http://www.nationaldog.com.au/2008/2008-may/breed-feature/bfpage16.pdf

_"Cavaliers

This revival of an old breed interested me, for my father kept the old type with which I am quite familiar, and I spent some years trying to preserve it from extinction. Almost all these dogs are far too big and heavy boned. I know it is difficult to bred them right, the old material having almost died out. They now have much too long noses, with square ends. The old type had a moderate and pointed nose (about the same proportion as a Pom) with good stop, high-set ears, placed well forward – was short in back cobby and smart, and the extreme size about 16lbs or less (some only weighed 7 or 8 lbs). They had masses of coat, very often tightly curly. The best were all curly and Black and white waistcoat or red and white, or red with white facings. Tricolour hardly ever seen and never of such good type. With such a variety of types shown today I did my best to sort them out reasonably.”_

Laurelin, the above link would probably also interest you as there is a write up on it about the "Royal Toy Spaniels" which includes those that share ancestry with the Papillon.


----------



## jmead (Oct 20, 2009)

Pomeranian 1916


----------



## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

KelliCZ said:


> I really need to get a scanner - This is a picture of a 1936 magazine


Oohh... now THOSE are beautifully cropped ears. I don't usually like the cropped look, usually because they are cut soooooo tall and thin and the tops of the ear flop around all weird.. but man.. that is a nice crop as far as crops go.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


>


Really interesting post Spanialorburst i would have thought these were Paps.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Alright so somewhere I have these great historical pictures of Rotties and when I am looking, they seem to be hidden. I have only unearthed a few and will share these until I can find others.

The Rottweiler was originally a drover used to drive cattle and then used to pull carts to market to help their owners. 









Originating in Rome and then used to drive Cattle across the alps. They started becoming popular again in a small Villa called "Rottweil" or "The red tile" seen in this picture. The name of the breed has obvious origins. 









known as an overall working farm and family dog the Rottweiler gained popularity in select areas.









It wasn't until Hollywood used this breed in the movie "The Omen" that this breed suddenly was seen as evil. The dog in the movie used to guard the gates of hell and the devil incarnate. 









How sad is it that people latched on to that view of this Nobel breed and suddenly the breed is a smash hit? Sadly it is that view that we (Rottweiler lovers) are still fighting against today. Obviously people who get a breed to look tough are not the best homes for those breeds. 

History repeats itself in the Pitbull as seen in Spicy's wonderful thread showing historical pictures. A great family dog with a fighting background is now only seen for fighting. People tend to forget all of the positives. 

I really have to search for some of the wonderful historical pictures I have.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

A couple more but not good ones.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> Laurelin, the above link would probably also interest you as there is a write up on it about the "Royal Toy Spaniels" which includes those that share ancestry with the Papillon.


That was all fascinating! Thanks and thansk for the links too.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin, I love history, I love dogs, and I love art and photos, and I love how they go together. I find there are also clues in photos when written history is not available.

Studying the old small spaniels was where I started. The fascinating thing about the Phalene, is it truly is very representative of spaniels that have been bred probably for 2000 years. I will never be convinced they've been bred "pure" as we describe it today, but they were bred to a roughly consistent type for centuries upon centuries, (the essential "types" of these breeds existed) and they were used as part of the make-up of many, many other small breeds.

We've discussed the raised ear of the Papillon before, and we are of differing opinions about how those ears came up. 










I once read on a breeder's site an old article with the name and photo of an "unregistered dog" used to sire a turn of the Century Papillon, and he was sooooo obviously a Pom, but I lost that link when I lost my last computer to a bug, so my memory and word are all I have on that. My understanding was that Madame Delville kept record of her cross breedings as well, but I cannot find that reference except for mentioned above. Mme. Delville's Papillons can also be seen on this next link.

http://metroareapaps.org/content/view/14/28/

One of the things you should look at, being interested in Papillons, is that solid coloring is dominant to piebald (mostly white with patches of color). I find it more than coincidental that the Papillon's ears came up "en masse" and about that same time that "en masse" full color Papillon's came onto the scene . . . . A dominant gene (the full color gene) had to have been introduced from a cross if it had been bred out already.

. . . of course the truth might be lost in time and there will always be those who say "no they didn't cross" and those who say "yes they did". 

On the topic of turn of the Century breeding practices, I just found these photos and the writing about them, today, though, and they speak to this issue in some other breeds that claim a "2000 year history".

The photos and explanations were taken from a PDF on the Pekingese Club of America site.

http://www.thepekingeseclubofamerica.com/The Pekingese and The Happa Dog, with photos.pdf











This photo shows a short haired Pekingese - a Happa dog. 










It is all very interesting stuff, and I can get lost in it for days.

A very significant point of interest is that when the genetic structure of the dog genome was done, the Pekingese and Shih Tzu were found to be almost identical. The Pug had been inundated with European dog type genes, and was no longer considered one of the "ancients". Further study shows that the criteria for determining "the ancients" is very questionnable, however this does show that the Pug has grown far from its roots in the Happa Dog, or it would still be very similar, genetically, to the Peke and Shih Tzu.

Genetic structure of the purebred dog: http://www.britainhill.com/GeneticStructure.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_dog_breeds

What was more interesting, though, (according to Hellmuth Wachtell on the Cangen list - I know not how to decipher this stuff) is that in the Pekingese/Shih Tzu genes is found A LOT of "european spaniel" genes, enough that he surmises that these spaniels are as ancient as the Eastern small dogs. Malta was known for having numerous varieties - short coat, long coat, bearded and not - of small dogs (all varieties called canis Melitei) for thousands of years, and was a trading partner with the East for that long as well. 

These are other links that might be of interest to anyone loving the little spaniel varieties.

http://www.ourhavanese.com/ourhav.html

"Spain’s dwarf dogs (Spaniels) were noted for temperaments awash with sweetness and merriment as well as for abilities to hunt and scavenge. Used often for crossbreeding with these dwarfed spaniels was the canis Melitei, now called the Maltese. Each cross was used to impart beautiful coats to other toys, much as the Bull Terrier in later times was used to impart strong heads to other terriers. In fact, the double-coated Skye Terrier was once called the Skye Maltese Terrier . . .

. . . Emerging from one successful crossbreeding of the Maltese with the small Barbet were the Silky Toy Poodle and the Tenerife (Bichon Frise). The French had developed the Barbet from the rough water dog. Canis Aquaticus, who had been carried from Russia to many European countries. Named Poodle in France, Pudel in Germany and Cao de Aqua in Portugal, the French called it, Canichbe, Chien Canne or le petit barbet. The Barbet was a small dog weighing from 15 to 20 pounds, with long, curly hair. In 1845, W.C.I. Martin wrote that he grouped the little Barbet with “Spaniel and fancy varieties,” saying of them, “hair, long and fine; muzzle, moderate; forehead, developed; scent, acute; intelligence at a high rate.”​


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> Laurelin, I love history, I love dogs, and I love art and photos, and I love how they go together. I find there are also clues in photos when written history is not available.
> 
> Studying the old small spaniels was where I started. The fascinating thing about the Phalene, is it truly is very representative of spaniels that have been bred probably for 2000 years. I will never be convinced they've been bred "pure" as we describe it today, but they were bred to a roughly consistent type for centuries upon centuries, (the essential "types" of these breeds existed) and they were used as part of the make-up of many, many other small breeds.
> 
> ...


Just wondering where you heard that solids came in at the same time as the erect ears? I had never heard that before. Don't have time to look right now though.

I think spitz is more likely than the chihuahua theory I agree though. But I have never seen it substantiated at all. I'd be interested in anything you have on that issue.  And I definitely think that they crossbred a lot of the small spaniels back then but it is true that the phalene is pretty much still the same as many toy spaniels were back in the day.


----------



## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

pugmom said:


> Here you go Chihuahua people ...you were right they were more difficult to find.
> 
> 1900
> 
> ...


Where in the world did you find those?! I found a few last year but deleted them on accident. Chihuahuas are very very very hard to find anything of- even early paintings are hard to find!


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

http://www.encore-editions.com/dogs2.htm 

Encore Editions has a gallery which shows old photos/paintings/art of many different breeds.

This Papillon-Chihuahua plate is from their collection. I am of the impression these plates are from the 1920-30ish era.










I have had tons of trouble finding old pics of Chihuahuas as well. I'll keep looking.

Here are some more Papillon ones that are a little different from many shown on sites:



















This one makes me think about the "unknown" origins of the Russian Toy Terrier!











Laurelin, in regards to the solid coloring and the ears of the Papillon coming erect at the same time . . . 

http://www.papillonclub.org/paphistory1957B.html

_Suddenly, *toward the end of the 19th Century, the erect ear carriage with its butterfly appearance became highly fashionable*. In fact, it so caught the public fancy that the new term of "Papillon" quickly became the name for the entire breed . . . 

. . . The Titian dogs were red and white. Before long, specimens appeared in all shades from pale lemon to deepest chestnut, while some of the most beautiful examples were black and white or silver-grey and white. All these colors were usually marked with a white blaze and often with the thumb mark on the top of the head. Then, *toward the end of the l9th Century* through the first two decades of this one, *the vogue was for solid colors *or for dogs with only the feet and chest splashed with white._

Genetically, the easiest way to get a white splashed dog is to breed a solid or full colored dog to a piebald. The white spotting locus is then S/s, so that dog is a carrier of piebald (Papillons are now all piebald -mostly white dogs with colored patches). Bred to a piebald "s/s", half the pups would be piebald, and half "full-colored", most likely with some white splashes.

The black masking gene, and the sable color (red), appears to have come more predominant in the Papillon in this time period as well. It is rare to find a true tan based red or lemon (e/e) anymore, although a red sable, full grown, can look e/e, so we can never know what color (genetically) was in those Titian paintings. Masking is also dominant to non-masked (on the extension locus.)

Have you gone through the photo gallery here?

http://www.papillonclub.org/History/Welcome.html


----------



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

I'll have to go back to finish reading...

but my neighbour has a dog that looks EXACTLY like this.


----------



## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

No collie pics yet? Well, I have to add some, then! It was easy to find old paintings of collies, mostly from the Victorian era when they really became popular as a family pet. But I didn't have as much luck looking for old photos. I'm sure someone else would know where to find them, but I didn't. I never get tired of looking at pics of these sweet dogs, but then, I am sort of biased! 

Rough Collie circa 1915









Collie and Draft team (date unknown)









illustration from Dalziel's British Dogs, 1889









Painting by Edwin Douglas, 1877









(more....)


----------



## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Scotch Collies, Basil Bradley, circa 1890









Honour, Maud Earl









Painting by Edwin Megargee of Rough and Smooth varieties









The Shepherd's Pet, Walter Hunt, 1897









(more...)


----------



## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Late for the Train, Arthur Wardle, collie and Jack Russell terrier, 1897









We Just Want to Play, Arthur Wardle, collie and fox terriers








(This one really looks more like a sheltie, actually, but still a cute pic!)

Twixt Love and Duty, Sir Arthur John Elsey, 1919









Golden Hours, Sir Arthur John Elsey









(just a few more!)


----------



## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

Queen Alexandra with Grandchildren and Dogs, Blinks and Morgan, 1902
Collies, Borzoi, Foxhounds and Schipperke









Mr. A.H. Megson's Ch. Ormskikk Emerald, circa 1890









And, of course, Pal, the original "Lassie" from the 1934 movie









Okay, that's all from me!


----------



## dleggs15 (Mar 4, 2008)

CH Rodney Stone -1907


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

MakeShift Heart said:


> Aww no poodles  And I don't have any old pics of poodles either lol


1881 Poodles









1897









1899


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

More Poodles:

1902









1905

















1907


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Chinese Cresteds:

*Engravings from the 1880s and a photo from 1903*









*1960s (Dogs from the first Chinese Crested kennel, Crest Haven. All modern Cresteds are descended from their and Gypsy Rose Lee's lines)*









*1966-1970*









*1980s*


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

English foxhound (part of Cracker's mix...at least we're pretty sure...her colouring is lab but her body and personality are more hound)









A picture of Cracker (her tail is not up in this one, but usually she carries it up over her back like in the painting)


----------

