# I can't stand my dogs anymore!!



## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

Hello. My name is Nicole and I have two dogs. One is a Great Swiss Mountain Dog (6 years old) and the other is a Pitt Bull Terrier (4 years old). I've had both dogs since they were about 1 year old. 
I am married, and have two kids. My kids are 2 years and 6 months. 

My problem is that my dogs are just a nuisance to me now. I use to play with them every day. We'd go for long walks several times a day. I trained them each for an hour a day. 

Now that I'm a mom, I don't even have enough time for my kids! I'm already stressed trying to keep up with all of my responsibilities. The dogs are just in my way. I don't have time to be taking care of them, let alone dealing with their mess when they are bad. 

They will steal food right off of our plates, right in front of us! 
They steal whole loaves of bread off of our counters and will eat it. Then I go to make sandwiches for lunch, just to find that the dogs ate the bread! 
Now, whenever my older dog gets in trouble, he hides under the bed or table, and if I go to get him out, he will try and bite me!

Now, I must say that these dogs are WONDERFUL with my kids. So gentle and patient and kind. 
I am torn. I want to find the dogs a better home; one where someone will actually be able to give them proper attention. But my son, 2, loves them. I know that they bring him great joy, and will continue to do so as he gets older. 

I don't know what to do. 
Any help would be greatly appreciated. 

Thank you.
Nicole-


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Well, think about it. What did you use to do in the past that you no longer do now? 

Have the answer yet?

How about now?

Exercise! 

Look, rather you have kids or not, your dogs NEED to still be walked daily and they still NEED training. Without constant training, dogs relapse back to how they want to act. Both dogs you have are VERY HYPER dogs that NEED outlets. I would suggest a daycare at least once or twice a week, but it's no place for a Pit Bull (ONE t not two) to be. You can also hire a dog walker to help you out. Even better, get a double stroller, put your kids in it, and take your dogs for a walk anyways. You can even use a treadmill to walk them if you have one. Theres also Flirt poles that can help tire the dogs out. Theres many ways to work a dog.

You can't expect to stop working your dogs and to have them remain perfect angels. Dogs need an outlet and at the age of 6 and 4 they are still pretty young and full of energy. Start working them again, get the 2yr old involved as well, start training again and your dogs will return to what they use to be.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

Obviously , the best thing to do here is to get to work finding your dogs good new homes. If you don't have the time to train them , this situation won't work. As for your son , I would rehome them now before he is old enough to understand the whole situation , lest he learns a bad lesson about proper pet ownership and care. 

I know it sounds like I am being harsh , but this is a bad situation. .it is just that having dogs for 4 and 6 years that steal food and have resource guarding issues means they were not properly trained to begin with , and since you no longer have anytime due to having children this situation it can only continue to get worse. Having a Swiss Mountain Dog that tries to bite while guarding food under the table is a scary report to hear when toddlers and babies also live in the home.

I really think this is one of those situation where rehoming and then not getting another dog is the best option. Sorry :/



Darkmoon said:


> Well, think about it. What did you use to do in the past that you no longer do now?
> 
> Have the answer yet?
> 
> ...


This was my 1st thouight too..but the poster is pretty clear about not having any time at all to work on the dogs


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

We do still go for walks a couple times a week; but I agree that they need vigorous exercise at least once a day. 
We have a large yard that they run around in with each other, but I am going to get out there more often with them. Thank you.

And honestly, the Great Swiss has done stuff like this always, despite being in Obedience classes. He's very independant, and a runner. Any time he has the chance he runs away. He will be a good dog inside and will listen, but outside it's like you don't even exist. 

After consulting a couple of trainers, they said there was nothing we could do, that that was just the way his breed was.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

Well to me it seems like you stopped that hour a day training a lot to soon. It just seems you got dogs that don't know how to behave and you have grown accustomed to scolding and cleaning up messes rather then redirecting and preventing messes. I really think you should take a step back and try to remember why you got the dogs in the first place. And really ask yourself if the dogs are the problem or if it is something else. I mean I got a 7 year old kid and now granted it is not two babies crawling around but she can be just as frustrating if not more so when dealing with her and my dog at the same time. Espically since lela is like a toddler herself. When you have dogs there are always going to be a certain lvl of correction and redirection going on just like with kids. But it seems to me your dogs don't even know what is expected of them so they just do what they want. If a dog is trying to bite you when you get from under the bed that is a pretty big issue. How do you usually reprehend the dogs do you hit them or yank him out of the bed, have you given him a reason not to trust you when he does something wrong? If you have not then it seems odd he would bite before a growl, are you paying attention to warning growls. I wouldn't forcefully move the dog from the bed but rather coax him out with treats. He is only hiding because he feels you are upset with him and he dosen't understand why.

You will prolly get a few varied responses. Some will tell you like I have that it just seems training is the biggest issue, where as others may say its just best you rehome them. I think it depends on if you truly love the dogs anymore. If you really just don't care for them the way you used to then yes please rehome them. Maybe when your kids are older and you feel like you have more patience to deal with another dog you can consider getting another dog then, but if you really do still love them and just feel frazzled then take the time to read this forum, look up some threads on issues you are having, and just try to work it out. I hate to see anyone have a dog they don't want their because honestly you just want treat the dog right one way or another. Be it you don't pay attention to it , yell at it to much, or just generally ignore it. These are things that can cause emotional issues for a dog and it isn't healthy for them, it can cause social problems and being around children you don't need a dog with issues like unwarned biting.

I mean just going by one of your issues, stealing food on your plate right in front of you. Consider this if you will. You are watching someone eat a big juicy meat pattie and set it down, all you have is these dry kibblets in your bowl that are not to appetizing and that meat pattie is just smelling really good. I know nothing good will happen if I *don*'t take it, they might yell at me but I can go hide under the bed and she stops yelling. Ok I will take the meat. 

The dog needs to know that it is a GOOD thing NOT to take the food. You need to go back to basics. Self control. NILF. aka nothing in life is free. If starting over to have a better relationship with them isn't what you want to do then, yea it prolly is better they find someone who will want to make the effort, and it WILL take effort. They are older dogs and though any dog is trainable regardless of age, they are still somewhat "set" in their ways and will need extra praise and extra love when they get things right. So I will let that be my two cents I know someone else will jump in here.




> After consulting a couple of trainers, they said there was nothing we could do, that that was just the way his breed was.


I call bonk on this. Any trainer that says "deal with it , its the breed" shouldn't be training. Some personailty traits and behaviors are breed specific but lack of consistent training is not one of them. Find a new trainer


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

He's not gaurding food. He eats the food in the night, and then in the morning when I find the wrappers, I will find him and he immediatly runs under the table. When I go to try and get him out, if I reach my hand under, he will then try to bite. I think he's afraid.

I'm sure there are super moms out there who ARE able to handle a career, kids, pets, husbands, households, meals, shopping, etc. Unfortunatly, I am not one of them.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

I would question a trainer that would say that about a breed! 

I was basing my advice on your statement:
"Now that I'm a mom, I don't even have enough time for my kids! I'm already stressed trying to keep up with all of my responsibilities. The dogs are just in my way. I don't have time to be taking care of them, let alone dealing with their mess when they are bad. "

If you really mean that , definitely spend your energy on finding them good homes. If that was just said out of frustration , well...are you willing to try some of the exercise strategies? This situation can only be solved be extra effort from you , the owner.

And really make sure the kids are never left at all unsupervised around your dogs. If your dog has food under the table or bed and one of your babies tries to take it , it could spell absolute disaster if your dog bites when guarding food like that. ..I just read that it isn;t guarding..same situation though. If he tries to bite you when he is under the table , this is a very dangerous situation with young babies around.


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## myahele (Nov 6, 2010)

While I'm not too sure if you're still walking them regularly or not, I believe your dogs need to be walked more. It seems like you're busy with your kids, so I'd recommend hiring a dog walker or to save money in the long run then I suggest you get a treadmill where the dogs can walk at whichever time of day is convenient for you.

Are they crate trained? Maybe you can put them in the crate (or another part of the house) while preparing meals and/or while eating.

It seems like they also need to be re-trained to understand the word "no"


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

Well like I said, they are not gaurding food. I believe my dog is scared of me when I come to find him after he ate my bread. I dont want to coax him out with treats, because I'm pissed he ate my bread! lol 
I dont want to sound mean, I'm just being totally honest, so I can know the honest thing to do for these dogs. 

I guess I don't know what I should do when they do something wrong. Usually I just show them the empty wrapper and yell "No!" 

I do love them. My husband was going to rehome them awhile ago, and we just couldn't do it. It was so hard.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

I am not entirely convinced he isn't resource guarding but that is just a minor issue when you compare it to the major source of the problem, which the dogs are running things,and I have to agree with sandy no matter how good the dogs are with the kids no dog that tries to bite at people in any situation should be left with a child unsupervised .



> I'm sure there are super moms out there who ARE able to handle a career, kids, pets, husbands, households, meals, shopping, etc. Unfortunatly, I am not one of them.


I am no supermom. In fact I have never met one in real life. I have one kid one dog one husband and I require each of them to pull their own weight. My daughter has routine chores and has ever since she was old enough help me. Most YOUNGER kids love to help and even a two year old can help you with small things. My daughter was helping me fold laundry by then and you can make it fun. My husband helps me with dishes we alternate days and when he gets off of work he takes the dog out for her evening walk. If there is a mess somewhere people don't waiting around for "mom' to get it people get it themselves. To me it seems you are more frustrated with your entire situation and the dogs are just adding to it. I almost feel like you are just wanting comfort that it is OK to rehome the dogs in your situation. If that is the case then yea I do think it is ok, I think it would be better for the dogs if they were somewhere they could be the focus of attention for at least a little while. If you want help on the other hand to figure out how to juggle this, then there is help to be had here there too. But I think it would help to know fully what it is you really want to do



> I dont want to coax him out with treats, because I'm pissed he ate my bread!


The problem with that is you are really assuming he understands what you are upset about. Dogs just don't generalize and as far as it seems all you do is scream no at them when something ends up messy or food gets stolen or what ever the case is at the moment. All they understand is NO means MAD. They have no understanding that NO means I shouldn't have taken that . I stand by going back to basics.



> I do love them. My husband was going to rehome them awhile ago, and we just couldn't do it. It was so hard.


This tells me there is hope as long as you want to give it that one last college try . I think you should ^_^


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## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Well, you certainly have your hands full but this is doable. First, take a deep breath every now and then.  Try to lift your mood and destress yourself, your dogs (and probably children as well) can pick up on your stress and act upon that.

The doggy daycare that was mentioned is a good idea if your dogs are good with other dogs, gives them (and you) an outlet. You could also consider dropping them off at a friend's or relative's house.

I was also going to suggest taking your kids on a walk with the dogs. Great exercise for all! Your husband could go as well and you can make a family event of it.

Everything you mentioned are all able to be delt with, with proper training. Which, btw, if your dog is cowarding under the table and trying to bite, you are training/correcting Way Too Harsh! Try approaching the problem from another angle.

While you've babyproofed your house, you can also doggyproof. Use babygates for the dogs also, get taller ones if your dogs can clear the standard gates. I got my extra tall gate from Petsmart and it has hinges and a latch lift so there's no inconvenience going through the gate. As for your bread, get a breadbox and put it on the far side of your counter, against the wall.

If you honestly don't think this will work out or you won't be able to find the time, re-homing them may be the best option. Your son probably wouldn't remember for too long being only 2.

Edit: a lot of posts were made before I posted mine. Sorry if I back-tracked.


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

The dog walker and treadmill are great ideas. I've tried taking them both for walks with both of my kids, and it went horribly. My pitt is still learning NOT to lunge at squirrels! 

I then tried taking them one at a time for walks with both the kids. We walked to a park, and I tied them up so we could play at the park and each time I did, each dog just sat there staring at us, and whined until we came back to them.

I agree with you all that I am stressed at everything. I am learning how to juggle everything. It's a lot harder than I thought it was going to be. 

I want to keep our dogs, so here is a new question: 
What should I do when I find my dogs stealing something off the counter or out of the trash? 
I believe that I do respond too harshly.


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## Dreadog (Jun 12, 2009)

I can completely related to your frustrations. Raising children, caring for dogs, maintaining a home, and working ( I work, atleast) can be very stressfull. To try and decrease the stress, I have made a few changes that are helping me enormously:

1) I rededicated myself to walking my dog. I work full time and have 2 little kids, but I need to feel good about myself and my life, so I have decided that a 30 minute walk everyday is necessary for me and my dog. I just was feeling awful because I had practically stopped walking Hoku, and I felt terrible for her being cooped up in the house all day with no stimulaiton. 

2) I brought the crate back out. We had been crate free since September, but Hoku had been getting increasingly more destructive. At first she hardly chewed anything, but for the last month, we have been coming home to something destroyed nearly everyday. Usually just a kids' toy, or some shredded paper from the garbage, or she would steal fruit and vegetables from the counter. Now, she is back to being crated while I am at work. I feel bad about crating her, but i had no other choice. I would suggest you invest in a crate, or lock the dogs in a separate part of the house when you are either preparing food or eating. Or, just never allow them in the kitchen.

3) If you can't take them to daycare, maybe you can hire a neighbor or friend to walk them for you. When I am desperate, and I know Hoku needs some exercise, I will sometimes call the 15 year old neighbor and pay him $5-$10 to exercies Hoku. Also, i invested in an everlasting fun ball treat dispenser, and my dog loves it. it takes her awhile to get all the dog food out, so it keeps her busy and exercises her brain, so she is better behaved otherwise.

4) Try to relax. Do what you can, and try not to stress about what you can't. How you feel about your dogs, and your attitudes towards them is what will help you be happy with them or not. Your dogs are not likely to end up in a better situation then they have. Do your best to carve out a little time for them everyday, remember the joy they bring, and it will get better...

just my 2 cents.

Drea

regarding the food stealing and trash stealing: prevention is best. We know Hoku will get into the trash, so we have placed the garbage bin in the garage so she can't get to it. Also, we just don't leave food on the counter that she might eat. The key is catching the dog WHILE they are stealing the food or getting into the trash. If you catch them after they have stolen the food or trash, there is nothing to do, just clean it up. If you catch them trying to steal food or trash in front of you, I would just give a low "uh-uh" and when the dog walks away from the "prize" I would praise for walking away, and not taking the food/trash.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

Someone will correct me if I am wrong but I believe that is considered counter surfing. What on the way of toys do the dogs have to keep them occupied and what food is available to them through out the day.



> I've tried taking them both for walks with both of my kids, and it went horribly. My pitt is still learning NOT to lunge at squirrels!


I really think proper leash training and walking should be trained before you bring the kids, will take longer and it may take some extra working getting them walked and having someone watch the kids but I think it would be better because you can't expect to split your attention between the kids and the dogs when it comes to something as important as training on the leash, also its not fair to the kids to have to have to wait to get to the park because you have to deal with a dog running after a squirrel lol


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Did you get these dogs from breeders? Or how did you come by them? If YOU made the decision to bring these dogs into your life (as it was to bring your kids into your life) then it is your responsibility to care for them.

Your dogs are acting in that way because they are under excersised & also are starved for attention... any attention weather it be negitive or positive. If you don't witness the stealing of food then yiu can't punish for it! If you do, then use a marker word to interupt them ('ah ah!' Or 'ahhht!' With a clap of your hands) do NOT use corpreal punishment EVER you wil only end up with a fear biter & all the dogs will learn is to fear you not what they are doing wrong!

Are you a single mom? Or do you have a BF or huby that can watch the kids for an hour or so in the evenings while you walk the dogs? Or perhaps he can walk them.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

They shouldn't be able to get to the wrappers. If they are counter surfing or trash diving at night, then you need to either cage them at night again, or block off access to these areas. Most of training is prevention and since these behaviors are self rewarding behaviors, then you just have to make sure that they are unable to complete those behaviors.

When my Pit Bull hurt his leg, he stopped getting all the training and walks he needed to be happy and started counter surfing and trash diving when I would leave for work. Everyday for a bit I would come home to a MESS. The final straw was when I came home and I forgot I threw some raw porkchops in the garbage and Nubs tore the garbage out and strewn it across the house. NASTY! I started crating him.

One thing your doing wrong is your yelling at your dogs when your not catching them in the action of doing the bad behavior. When I came home to that mess, I didn't say anything. I kept my temper in check, tossed the dog outside, and then once he was out of sight, I screamed, cussed, cried, ect. *You can NOT punish dogs for behaviors you do NOT CATCH THEM IN THE ACT OF DOING! *. You get the fear responses your getting when you do. Now I've caught Nubs red handed with his nose in the garbage and you bet your behind he gets laid into. Never touched, only yelled at, and removed from the area. He will NOT touch that garbage when I'm in the house now. When I'm not home though it's still open game so he is crated or I use a baby gate to block off the kitchen. 

Start Nothing In Life Is Free training again. It's easy and works wonders. Do not punish your dogs unless you catch them in the act of the bad behavior, and reward them like crazy when they do things you want them to do.

Here's my question about your SMD and running away. When he runs away do you punish him when he returns? If you do STOP!!!!!! As long as the dog returns to you, you better make it be the BEST THING EVER no matter how mad you are or how long it takes to get your dog back. Why would your dog want to recall back to you if they are just going to get in trouble? Now grab a long rope, take your dog out back and start recall 101 again. Get some YUMMY treats like Chicken or cheese, a treat that will only for now be used for recall. Let your dog go run around the yard while you hold the rope. Call him to you ONCE and if he doesn't start to come reel him in. Once he comes to you, give him a treat, lots of praise, then let him go back to playing. Then do it again, then release him again. Repeat 4 or 5 times then call it a day. Do this every day for about 2 weeks, and you'll have a dog that WANTS to come back to you. If you don't happen to have a treat on you when he gets loose and returns, then praise like heck, run into the house and give it to him as soon as you get there.

It's all training, and even with Kids you shouldn't have issues doing this. Get the 2 year old involved, more so in the recall game, because that is what it is to the dog, it's a game.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I agree darkmoon, when josie was learning recall, she ran off in the yard after the genieas soooo many times & one time it took forever to get her recalled back, yeah, I was pissed but I didn't take it out on her, because I don't want to punish her for coming back would make her fear me.

If I do any adversive, its yelling NO! Or LEAVE IT! Very clearly & loudly, when she looks at me, I recall her & praise her like crazy. Its all about finding the dogs week spot (the trick that gets them to respond) & run with it!

I agree darkmoon, when josie was learning recall, she ran off in the yard after the genieas soooo many times & one time it took forever to get her recalled back, yeah, I was pissed but I didn't take it out on her, because I don't want to punish her for coming back would make her fear me.

If I do any adversive, its yelling NO! Or LEAVE IT! Very clearly & loudly, when she looks at me, I recall her & praise her like crazy. Its all about finding the dogs week spot (the trick that gets them to respond) & run with it!


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm sorry you are going through this. Please take a deep breath and try to take a step back from your situation before you make any decisions. It's so stressful to be a mom, and your kids are so young! 

How long have your dogs been stealing food?
When the older dog "gets in trouble" do you yell at him? WHY do you need to go get him out from under the bed or table? He obviously feels a bit threatened, even if there's never been any actual threat. And, when a dog feels threatened, that's not really the best time to go grab him.

IF you're willing to put the time in, you can train them to not go after food. IF you got rid of the food issue, would you feel better about the dogs? The thing is, time seems to be your number one problem. Do you have anyone helping you at home?


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

Thank you everyone so much. 
I never thought that Virgil (my great swiss) was snapping at me because I was threatening him. I just felt that I was the boss and he needed to listen to me no matter what. I've forgotten about their feelings. 

I've been treating them just like another chore in my life. I need to remember when they were a release for me. 

I've always yelled and grabbed them by the scruff. I had learned that you had to show dogs that you were the boss, physically, or else they would turn on you. 
I guess I tried to make my dogs physically afraid of me.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> I've always yelled and grabbed them by the scruff. I had learned that you had to show dogs that you were the boss, physically, or else they would turn on you.


It sounds like you have been poorly informed to follow alpha dog training, but even in alpha dog training it was never to make them afraid of you and surly they will not turn on you. I really think you will benefit from this forum.

i also think that you are going to have to start all of this by reforming a bond with the dogs. And try to forget that whole "your the boss" thing for a while and try to think of it as "we are friends" I have never followed the "alpha" dog thing.

As a dog owner much like being a parent, I have rules. The rules are followed no matter what, my rules may be more lenient or more strict then someone else's rules but for me and my lifestyle what I have set is followed and never once do I need to feel "alpha" over the dog to enforce them. For example when me and lela are play lela wiill paw me and put her paw on my head and stretch out and cuddle my neck. To some people she is showing dominance, maybe so but to me its just affection and playing, and like wise I can roll her on belly and give her belly scratches and raspberries..she loves raspberries and will roll over immediately if i make the sound. So to me it isn't an alpha thing or who is in charge thing.. its a trust and respect thing. You got to give a little and you then you can learn to take a little. 

With dog biting and snipping at you this was caused by being afraid and the only way to change that is to show him you won't do what he is afraid of which is prolly the scruff grabbing and man handling. Even if you don't HIT the dog you can still be causing him discomfort that he just simply dosen't want to put up with. As far as turning on you, I would sooner expect a dog being handled in a rough manner to turn on me then a dog I used positive reinforcement with.

So for starters you need to work on trust and NILF and Basic obedience.

Oh and someone else mentioned getting the older child involved in training and I agree with this. One thing that the dog needs to know is that what goes for one person in the house goes for everyone in the house. You don't want to end up with a dog that is perfect for you but will run all over the kid. So it is imperative the dog know to respect and trust the kid as well.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

These dogs were untrained before you had kids. You were not dedicated to consistant training then.. and now it is even harder to do. This is what I am getting out of your posts. Your posts are EXACTLY why I say do not get a dog until the kids are at least 10 years old. 

Training dogs is mostly prevention and consistancy. Punishing a dog by showing him a wrapper only tells the dog you are to be feared (and you are because you have punished this dog enough that you have crossed his bite threshold). You have summed it up by saying you are "pissed." Instead of being angry with the dog, you should be angry at yourself for leaving the bread on the counter where the dog can get it!

If you do not want the dog counter surfing, leave NOTHING on the counter. If you do not want the dog to steal food off your plates when you are eating, crate the dog or teach a reliable Lie down (and stay.. tho if the dog is lying down, he is staying). 

If you want a dog to STOP getting in the trash, put the trash where the dog cannot get to it or get a dog proof trash bin. 

You need to train these dogs to do things consistantly. This means if you ask for sit, then the dog is to sit until you release the dog or give another command cue. Same for lie down and the rest. ONE command and the dog is to do it.. if he knows it. Sit is just that.. NOT SIT SIT SIT..... 

Recall is a whole 'nother thing and once a dog has learned that recall is not required, they will ignore you. 

I would first of all get a crate. When you cannot watch the dogs and when you are fixing food, the dog is in the crate. If you find (or think) the dog is in the crate for many hours a day because you are too busy.. then you need to rehome the dogs. 

I am sorry if I am tough sounding here. I would say these same things in person (just so you know). 

At this point you need to decide if you are going to follow thru and be a consistant and fair handler of the dogs and if you are able to be a consistant and fair handler of the dogs. If you are honest with yourself you will be able to answer that. If the answer is no.. cannot do it.. the dog would be better off with someone who can do this. 

Good luck with whatever you elect to do.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> If you do not want the dog counter surfing, leave NOTHING on the counter. If you do not want the dog to steal food off your plates when you are eating, crate the dog or teach a reliable Lie down (and stay.. tho if the dog is lying down, he is staying).


Let me share a story a lot of members already heard. My step daddy who I loved very much passed away when i was young. I have very little left matieral wise that he owned. One of the few things I had that I TREASURED was his baseball cap with a eagle logo from the football team. I wore this hat all the time. I LOVED this hat. Because I LOVED my dad. In case you are wondering what this could possiably have to do with your situation. Well you guessed it. I left it out on the arm of the couch for NO LONGER then 2 MINUTES . Lela completely destroyed it. I was DEVASTATED. I cried for a long time. But I tell you what I did not do. I did not yell at my dog. To the dog it was a smelly old hat that really could use a good chew . To your dog that bread just needs to be eaten I mean it is just sitting there going to waste . I agree if you don't want it to chewed PUT IT UP. I am not saying you will have to do this forever and you shouldn't expect to but you need to do it NOW because the dog dosen't yet understand what is acceptable to chew and eat and what is not. 

I also would like to hear more of what toys the dogs have and weather the dog has food out all the time. With lela I have no issues leaveing her food out when she wants it, but some people have to keep the food up and require the dogs sit and stay before the food is put down and then they can eat.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

Unfortunately scruffing and things like alpha rolls are a very old form of training that far too many people use do to the sudden popularity in a number of trainers. Many good hearted well meaning people have succumb to harsh unnecessary tactics in the training of their dogs. Only resulting in far worse behavior then the intended outcome. Just know that you are not the only one out there with these problems and that many take up this kind of training without knowing there are better more effective methods out there. 

It is understandable that you are overwhelmed considering it is like having 4 children in your home. Two of which don't live in the same social structures as humans. Dogs are far more intelligent than we give them credit for, but as much as they love and enjoy our companionship with them....we are still very hard to understand. Frustration is totally normal and can be very hard to control, hell even dogs get frustrated. Which is one of the reasons your Great Swiss is likely acting out, he is frustrated that every time you "find" him he has long forgotten about the yummies he ate earlier. To him he just knows when he sees you angry he must hide and keep you away or be reprimanded for nothing. 

It sounds like you would like to keep your dogs and are just overwhelmed at the moment. I think the first thing you may want to look at is adjusting your view of how dogs work. There is a fantastic book that really sheds a lot of light on the matter and has helped me out very much. It is called: The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell. 

Whatever you decide I wish you the best of luck and if you do decide to work with them keep us informed, we are here to help =)


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> These dogs were untrained before you had kids. You were not dedicated to consistant training then.. and now it is even harder to do. This is what I am getting out of your posts. Your posts are EXACTLY why I say do not get a dog until the kids are at least 10 years old.
> 
> Training dogs is mostly prevention and consistancy. Punishing a dog by showing him a wrapper only tells the dog you are to be feared (and you are because you have punished this dog enough that you have crossed his bite threshold). You have summed it up by saying you are "pissed." Instead of being angry with the dog, you should be angry at yourself for leaving the bread on the counter where the dog can get it!
> 
> ...


Spot on advice here!


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

I just joined here and I have to say, This is a great forum.  A post almost exactly like this was made at the last forum I was a member of and the poor, frustrated woman was SHREDDED. They had no mercy on her whatsoever and it was painful to watch. As soon as I saw this post, I said 'Oh No!' But you all have given her good advice that she can apply and left her with her dignity intact. I'm happy I found this palce


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

baby2nicole said:


> Hello. My name is Nicole and I have two dogs. One is a Great Swiss Mountain Dog (6 years old) and the other is a Pitt Bull Terrier (4 years old). I've had both dogs since they were about 1 year old.
> I am married, and have two kids. My kids are 2 years and 6 months.
> 
> My problem is that my dogs are just a nuisance to me now. I use to play with them every day. We'd go for long walks several times a day. I trained them each for an hour a day.
> ...


They sound like sweet, wonderful, untrained dogs. I'm sure that having two babies is a lot of work. But you knew that going in, right? It sounds like the dog hiding is afraid. Have you been physically punishing him? If he was "trying" to bite you, he would have done so. Dogs are very accurate with their mouths. But if you keep punishing him for stuff you've been neglectful about teaching him, eventually he WILL bite, and that will make him unadoptable. You need to either find time to work with and train your dogs, or a good rescue before they develop more bad habits. If you chose option number two, you will be teaching your older child that pets are disposable. You might see if you can find a good positive trainer to work with you in your home, if you are too busy for classes.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

These dogs clearly need more of a outlet then waling to a park, and being tied there, and playing in a back yard.

Them getting on the counters, stealing food of your plate ect are all your fault IMO. You are setting them up to grab this stuff. Dont leave stuff on the counter. And train them to lay on their bed, a mat, in a hallway when you are eating. reward heavily when they do go there, so they think "I go to (insert place) and get lots of praise and treats for it".

Find a trainer. who ever you worked with before is a load of crap IMO. telling you because he is a GSM means he is un trainable is bull to me. There are ways, you just need to learn them

get a schedule going. get them in to it. 
such as:
7am, 30mins walk
830am breakfast
12pm play time in the yard.
3pm 30mins walk.
6pm dinner.
8pm 30mins walk.

Not saying use this, obviously. But start somthing like this.
You are making your dogs fear you by roughing them up and yelling at them AFTER the fact they did somthing wrong. if you dont catch them in the act, then DO NOT try and disipline them for what they did.


amavanna said:


> Let me share a story a lot of members already heard. My step daddy who I loved very much passed away when i was young. I have very little left matieral wise that he owned. One of the few things I had that I TREASURED was his baseball cap with a eagle logo from the football team. I wore this hat all the time. I LOVED this hat. Because I LOVED my dad. In case you are wondering what this could possiably have to do with your situation. Well you guessed it. I left it out on the arm of the couch for NO LONGER then 2 MINUTES . Lela completely destroyed it. I was DEVASTATED. I cried for a long time. But I tell you what I did not do. I did not yell at my dog. To the dog it was a smelly old hat that really could use a good chew . To your dog that bread just needs to be eaten I mean it is just sitting there going to waste . I agree if you don't want it to chewed PUT IT UP. I am not saying you will have to do this forever and you shouldn't expect to but you need to do it NOW because the dog dosen't yet understand what is acceptable to chew and eat and what is not.
> 
> I also would like to hear more of what toys the dogs have and weather the dog has food out all the time. With lela I have no issues leaveing her food out when she wants it, but some people have to keep the food up and require the dogs sit and stay before the food is put down and then they can eat.


Same thing here. Soloman my 5 month old beagle got ahold of my grandmothers stuffed rabbit. She has cherished this thing since she was 10ish years old, she is almost 80 now. her uncle made it for her when she was in the hospital. Solo shredded the 70 year old stuffy, since it was so old it just fell apart. I cried so bad. I was able to fix it enough to make it look alright. may have been wrong but i havnt told my Gma, it would upset her, and if she doesnt know, its ok. it looks alright now, not perfect, but its good enough.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

baby2nicole said:


> After consulting a couple of trainers, they said there was nothing we could do, that that was just the way his breed was.



Find better trainers? There are breeds with certain propensities (huskies run, beagles follow their noses, herding dogs want to stop motion). But that doesn't make them untrainable.


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## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

Higher a dog walker. Someone who's there just to mentally and physicaly stimulate your dog for you... 'cause if it's not getting done, they'l find ways to amuse themselves.


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

Such great advise here, I have nothing of substance to add.... I just wanted to let the OP know that I have 3 kids, a dog and a cat, and a SO. I feel your pain.  I am glad you posted here. I hope you stay!!!

I learn something every day from the good folks on this board. WELCOME!!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Such great advise here, I have nothing of substance to add.... I just wanted to let the OP know that I have 3 kids, a dog and a cat, and a SO. I feel your pain.  I am glad you posted here. I hope you stay!!!

*No kids here, but I've (often!) wondered how much more hectic my life would be if I did. I know it's not totally impossible, as many people do it (having kids AND dogs and giving them all what they need), but want to wish the OP good luck. (And welcome!)*

I learn something every day from the good folks on this board. WELCOME!!

*Me too. I'm thinking of starting a DF note book! (Hey, I have one for agility class and one for rally class...why not, right?)
I know it's been mentioned but I would start doing this program to the best of your (OP's) ability: www.k9deb.com/nilif
Also, a 2 year old is more than old enough to sit in your lap and tell your dog to "sit" before he throws a toy for them. An old friend of mine raised ACD's and children of various ages, and she (somehow) made it work. Her toddlers were ALWAYS "part" of the dogs' daily routines. *


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I've always yelled and grabbed them by the scruff. I had learned that you had to show dogs that you were the boss, physically, or else they would turn on you.


The problem with that is that most dogs are physically superior to us humans.

I think about that any time I'm tempted to physically correct Esther. I remember that she is stronger, faster and a whole lot more assertive than I am. 

I also thing about the fact that, if a well-trained animal depends on physical domination by the human trainer, nobody could ride a horse.

When I still had children at home, and we got our first family dog in 17 years, I knew something had to give. What I gave up was television (except, of course, Packer football.) I didn't miss it at all. I coordinated our dog's needs with my own and we went on long hikes. I involved my children (who were 9 and 11 when we got him) in the dog's life. Whenever possible, we did things as a family, and that included the dog.


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

Elena; I feel my dogs were trained before I had kids. Maybe not perfectly trained, but no one is perfect. I know that you have to continue training every day for the whole dogs life.
It was because they were trained that we felt okay to start having kids. And, It is because I have STOPPED training them that they are like this. 

At least that is what I have come to realize. 
After talking to my husband I realize that I need to change my thinking. I would always think "Virgil needs to not get on the counter and steal food!" You are all right that instead of thinking that I need to think "I need to not leave food on the counter for them to steal."

I just felt like they should be smart enough to know that they are not allowed to do that. If he once knew, why doesn't he know now? 

You all have given me really great advice. Thank you so much to the people who have sympathised with me. It made me feel better that I am not the only one who feels frustrated sometimes, and that other people are able to manage. 

I guess having that "superior attitude" changed my whole demenor toward my dogs. It seemed right, that we are a pack and I had to be the leader of the pack. But it is true that no one would want to be man-handled. 
The only attention I have been giving has been negative. 

I'm so hoping that as I learn how to switch things back around, that my dogs will behave again.

Thank you all so much. 
Any more advice about proper ways to correct my dogs or just other training ideas that would for you would be great. 
Thank you again.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't have anything to offer other than hiring a dog walker. My youngest was two before I got my first dog and now, with three dogs, I can't imagine having dogs and small kids!


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

As for the toys and crate; we do have a crate. 
We will use it when guests come over if they are too hyper and when we leave the house. 
I hadn't thought of crating them during the night, because I felt guilty. But I guess it might be a good idea temporarily until we get things under control.

For toys, we do have a lot of toys. My son likes to put treats inside their cones, and then will give them to them to try and get them out. 
They also have tons of bones, rawhides, and cow ears (they luckily never chew things up, and i feel it's because they always have a bone!). 
Their food is left out for them always. 
They love the laser pointer! 

I remember reading that dogs love to please. They WANT to work for you. I just dont remember how to get them to work anymore. 
My dogs use to know many word commands, but they also knew all the commands in sign language. 

I had a routine I would do every day with a little obsticle course that would include all their commands. 
I will have to get my husband to watch the kids so I can get it back out once a day again.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

where's hubby in all this? Why isn't he helping? When he gets home from work, he can take the dogs out for a long walk. I am sure he will use the "I have been at work all day and I am tired" excuse, but you work full time too, with your kids, so you are just as tired, and someone needs to exercise the dogs.

Alternatively, hubby can watch the kids when he gets home and do some housework and you can take the dogs out. Be good for you to get away from the kids and out of the house for a little while.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Firstly, thank you for coming here, posting and being open to the advice and information given. 

Secondly, you seem like a good person who has had some not so good information given and who is overwhelmed by life in general.

My advice:
Talk to your husband about working out a dog schedule sans kids. Then talk to your other family members about an occasional babysitting gig so you and your hubby can go out as a couple, sans kids and dogs. Nothing fancy necessary, just a nice walk together or a coffee at a cafe or something...a half hour a week of time with just you two and then an occasional same thing with JUST YOU ALONE.

Then get to work on the dogs. Find a decent positive trainer who is not going to give you the dog "breed" excuse. I call bullcrap on that one too...that's a copout from a trainer who does not have a good concept of dogs in general. If you post your locality one of us may be able to recommend someone to you. 

Counter surfing etc management has been mentioned. NILIF has been mentioned. Not punishing the dogs has been mentioned. The only thing I want to recommend here is that you realize that dogs are 'innocently selfish' and if an opportunity exists for them to enjoy food or a roll in something gross or to take off and be free to chase the squirrels they will take it. It is all totally normal dog behaviour. Make a list of what you DO want in your dog's behaviours and then figure out how to train them to do that instead of the so called bad behaviours. Dogs can be a real beneficial addition to a family with kids, but they need just as much supervision and leadership (not correction, LEADERSHIP and mutual respect) than kids do. 

I also must add, dogs do not want to please their humans generally...they want to please you so they GET ATTENTION and GOOD STUFF..remember 'innocently selfish'? They like to please their humans because it either prevents being punished or it earns them good stuff...I would much prefer my kids and dogs learn that good behaviour earns them my attention, time and good stuff than that they need to fear me. Fear and respect are not the same thing...

Good luck!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

baby2nicole said:


> I just felt like they should be smart enough to know that they are not allowed to do that. If he once knew, why doesn't he know now?
> 
> You all have given me really great advice. Thank you so much to the people who have sympathised with me. It made me feel better that I am not the only one who .


He doesn't know it now, because he's learned that counter surfing pays (gets you good tasty stuff). I am glad you realize that management is going to go a long way to helping here. Training and exercise should take care of much of the rest. Good luck!


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## dilbert (Nov 1, 2008)

baby2nicole said:


> It seemed right, that we are a pack and I had to be the leader of the pack. But it is true that no one would want to be man-handled.
> The only attention I have been giving has been negative.


The goal is to provide leadership through confident and consistent guidance. Not dominance. Who would you follow? The bossy and harsh dictator? Or the confident, consistent leader that provides clear direction and thanks you (i.e. praises) for a job well done?



baby2nicole said:


> Any more advice about proper ways to correct my dogs or just other training ideas that would for you would be great.
> Thank you again.


I would recommend focusing on teaching appropriate behaviors and _*redirecting*_ (i.e. providing alternatives) rather than correcting (which can imply punishing) inappropriate behaviors.

I would echo Active Dog's recommendation to read _The Other End of the Leash_ by Patricia B. McConnell, Ph.D. It is an amazing and informative book. It is also an enjoyable read. The author has some great stories, and a wonderful sense of humor. If you search the site, you will see it is frequently recommended. 

Also look at _Family Friendly Dog Training: A Six Week Program for You and Your Dog_ also by McConnell and co-author Aimee M. Moore. And _How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves_ by Dr. Sophia A. Yin. Both of these books are great training resources with an emphasis on learning as a trainer simultaneously as your dog learns. 

Finally, search this site and continue to post questions. This is a great site.

Good luck to you and your family (human and dogs alike). Keep us informed.


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## peachesmommy (Sep 18, 2010)

It's not a breed thing..it's a training thing. And everyone here gave great advice. If you exercise your dogs some of the problems will go away. I own a pit bull and I found when I upped her exercise she was soo much better. Do your kids take naps? If they do take that time to work on obedience..if you have a baby monitor take the dogs out in the yard to play fetch or play games. I agree your husband should be helping as well. I do a lot here with the animals but my other half also helps out with things. It's hard but if you want it to work out and keep your dogs you will find a way to do it.


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## myahele (Nov 6, 2010)

With your schedule, I don't think you have to train them for one hour per day. What I do is that I train my dog a few times a day, each lasting only less than 5 minutes. That way it's less of a chore since it only last for a few minutes and then you can do whatever you want afterward.

Additionally, I don't really recommend leaving food out all day for them. That may make them gain extra weight and it may also increase the "boredom" of the food they have since they already know that day in and day out that food will always be in that bowl. Always. Furthermore, you can also help gain more trust from your dogs if they see you're the one basically giving them food. They'll associate you as good since you are giving them meals. Or something like that


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

myahele said:


> With your schedule, I don't think you have to train them for one hour per day. What I do is that I train my dog a few times a day, each lasting only less than 5 minutes. That way it's less of a chore since it only last for a few minutes and then you can do whatever you want afterward.
> 
> Additionally, I don't really recommend leaving food out all day for them. That may make them gain extra weight and it may also increase the "boredom" of the food they have since they already know that day in and day out that food will always be in that bowl. Always. Furthermore, you can also help gain more trust from your dogs if they see you're the one basically giving them food. They'll associate you as good since you are giving them meals. Or something like that


Exactly! I do "commercial break" training sessions. And a dog may get all of their daily ration of food through training. Free-feeding leads to the dog thinking there is a magic porridge bowl, and they don't much need you.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> =baby2nicole;958024]He's not gaurding food. He eats the food in the night, and then in the morning when I find the wrappers, I will find him and he immediatly runs under the table. When I go to try and get him out, if I reach my hand under, he will then try to bite. I think he's afraid.


If you would put things away, this would not be a problem. Don't leave food out where the dog(s) can get at it! Simple.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

myahele said:


> With your schedule, I don't think you have to train them for one hour per day. What I do is that I train my dog a few times a day, each lasting only less than 5 minutes. That way it's less of a chore since it only last for a few minutes and then you can do whatever you want afterward.
> 
> Additionally, I don't really recommend leaving food out all day for them. That may make them gain extra weight and it may also increase the "boredom" of the food they have since they already know that day in and day out that food will always be in that bowl. Always. Furthermore, you can also help gain more trust from your dogs if they see you're the one basically giving them food. They'll associate you as good since you are giving them meals. Or something like that


I agree with the above!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

myahele said:


> *With your schedule, I don't think you have to train them for one hour per day. What I do is that I train my dog a few times a day, each lasting only less than 5 minutes. That way it's less of a chore since it only last for a few minutes and then you can do whatever you want afterward.*
> 
> Additionally, I don't really recommend leaving food out all day for them. That may make them gain extra weight and it may also increase the "boredom" of the food they have since they already know that day in and day out that food will always be in that bowl. Always. Furthermore, you can also help gain more trust from your dogs if they see you're the one basically giving them food. They'll associate you as good since you are giving them meals. Or something like that


This is sound advice right here. Not only will breaking the training time up into 5 minute sessions (as opposed to two 30 minute sessions or one huge 60 minute sesssion) stick with your dogs a lot better, but it will "make it" become daily life. When I work my dogs it's 5-10 minutes at a time. They seem to retain it better. The rare occasions that I've "drilled" for 20-30 minutes, it was wasted time--nothing stuck, and it was ridiculously boring for both of us


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

Last night I made sure to put ALL food away in the cupboards, instead of on the counter. 
We had already invested in a trashcan with a lid, so I made sure that was closed. 
I put laundry baskets on the couch so they wouldn't get up on it. 

We all bundled up and went for a walk in the 8 inch snow! haha 


As for my husband; he works a full time job at night, and goes to school part-time during the day. So during the week while he is home he is sleeping.
I run my own business, so he helps me on the weekends with the kids while I do the things I need to do for that. He also spends time with the dogs much more than I do. He use to walk them much more often, but now that there's so much snow we haven't been getting out as much. 

I plan on going to the library today to check out the books that have been recommended to me. I love to read, and learn best that way. 

Thank you all again. 
I needed to change my thinking, which can be hard. 
Seeing things the way another person would helped put things into perspective. 

My one hour training was more like play. It wasn't just bland "sit, lay down, stay" 
It was an obstacle course that incorperated different commands.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Good for you! You're doing awesome! 

Also, not sure if anyone mentioned it or not, but your babies (the human ones) are so young. Your dogs KNOW that they're not getting as much attention from you anymore because of the babies and, related to that, you don't train as much or exercise as much. 
SO, if your dogs didn't have a problem counter surfing before, it's probably because they weren't bored, were getting exercise, training, and your attention. Now, things have changed, and they feel the need to entertain themselves! 

Keep up the excellent work! And, remember, it will be worth it!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

When im alive again and not feeling so horrible, ill send you a message and tell you about how i trained my dog to help me around the house, picking up after the kid, keeping him out of trouble etc...with a little creativity, you wont want to be a parent WITHOUT the dogs there...


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> I put laundry baskets on the couch so they wouldn't get up on it.


There was a thread a few days ago about getting on the couch and one of the suggestions was the prickly clear mats that you put under computer chairs, you might be able to use those while you aren't on the couch and use it to help aid you to teach him off or down .



> you wont want to be a parent WITHOUT the dogs there...


You have no idea how much truth there is to that. Before Lela waking my daughter up for school in the morning was an unbearable chore. She is very much my child and she HATES the mornings. It was always the same old song " I DONT WANT TO GET UP I DONT WANT TO GO I AM SLEEPY" it didn't matter how much sleep she got she just hates waking up. Now I send in Lela every morning to wake her up with kisses and just like me there is something about waking up to the happy face that just makes you feel better. She gets up laughing and tells her to get down and she has even started to teach her to help her find her backpack in the morning! I don't know how she done that one but at least twice I have seen lela bring her her backpack! So yea dogs are great with helping you kids once the dog knows all those other behaviors are unacceptable. I mean heck back in the day dogs were guard dogs and baby sitters to children lol


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have very few formal training sessions with my dogs (and I am going for obedience titles). I train all day.. a little here and there. The biggest thing is being consistant. For instance, you ask Bubba to SIT. The Phone Rings. You answer the phone. Bubba Gets up from the sit. YOU PUT THE PHONE DOWN and go and Put Bubba BACK in a sit. PICK THE PHONE BACK UP and say, "Hold on a sec" and then RELEASE THE DOG from the sit (or other command). 

When the dog is under a cue, you must consistantly (and kindly) require they do that cue until released or given another cue. 

People call me "mean" and "tough" because I do that. Meanwhile, my dogs behave and I can take them anywhere in public and get comments about them being 'so well behaved.'

When I first learned this, the person telling me about cinsistancy said, "You don't want your dogs to think." I thought.. OH how AWFUL. That is NOT what she meant. What she meant is that you wanted them to concentrate on the cue and not on the consideration that another behavior was an option (like walking away). 

Consistancy does not mean you have to beat the dog or be mean. It also means you need to be very observant and try not to have the dog break the cue.. watch the dog and release before the dog breaks.. so the dog succeeds. No one wants to fail. Not even a dog wants to fail. Set the dog up to succeed and reduce the failures and be consistant and fair. 

No need to scruff the dog, get mad or yell. Like as not you do not do those things with your kids so don't set an example that it is OK to do to dogs (or other animals). Remember.. the dog is feeling it and the kids ARE watching AND learning....


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

How do you 'release' the dog?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

baby2nicole said:


> How do you 'release' the dog?


You teach them a word that means "you can quit doing that now" - Free/Release/Break/That'lldo (some people use "okay' but most people use that frequently for other reasons)


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> When im alive again and not feeling so horrible, ill send you a message and tell you about how i trained my dog to help me around the house, picking up after the kid, keeping him out of trouble etc...with a little creativity, you wont want to be a parent WITHOUT the dogs there...


sorry you're sick Zim but can you share it with all of us?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

InkedMarie said:


> sorry you're sick Zim but can you share it with all of us?


was gonna..i meant POST but im on meds and a little...off....

oh yeah..i should actually share..heh


Id get some harnessess and train them to pull. You can have a dog pull your kids in a wagon on walks. you can put a sofa (or other heavy thing) on runners and have the dog help you haul it up the stairs.

put wheels on your laundry baskets and tie tug toy to them and train the dog to bring them to you.

teach the dog to pick up toys and put them in a toybox. 

teach them to flip light switches for you when your arms are full with sleepin youngins.

you can even teach them to "scare away the monsters under the bed" if needed.


all this involves teaching the dog to target and you learning how to shape. the basics of which can be found in the stickies in the training forum. 

and OP, keep your cool. I got a dog, 12 cats, a 4 year old, a job and im a single full time college student. you can do it. i have to go now though


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

baby2nicole said:


> After consulting a couple of trainers, they said there was nothing we could do, that that was just the way his breed was.


sorry, that's a cop out.....yes the Swissy may be a "harder headed" more independent breed, but when a breeder tells you things like that, it's b/c they don't know how to train to begin w/....i have a couple Swissies in the class i take w/ my rally girl....yes, they can have "a mind of their own" but the owner is of the opinion that certain behaviors are unacceptable and won't tolerate them.......these are fantastic dog and very well behaved....

i had a young couple bring a dog to me for training many yrs back.....she was 10 mo old and had already been to 3 other trainers....this couple had been told by all 3 that they would just have to accept the fact that Natasha wasn't going to learn anything....that this is the "way the breed is" "not to smart" "untrainable" etc......when they came to me, 'Tasha knew nada...she didn't even know how to sit on command.....4 wks later (4 class sessions and what they did at home) and she not only knew "sit" but "down", "stay", "come" and was well on her way to heeling......at 18 mo she finished her CD level in obedience....the dog? she was an Afghan......i had told the people that 1st night that the dog is only as smart as the person training it, and by this, i meant the trainers, not the owners, since the trainers were supposed to be teaching the owners HOW to train her.....

find the time to work w/ these dogs or you can figure it's going to be hard to place them.....most people don't want someone else's problem.....and rescues are full enuff w/ the "good ones" they can't place, let alone the problem dogs.....

as for exercise, there were some great ways listed above (flirt pole, etc)

just my 5 cents worth


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## BrittanieJo (Sep 23, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> was gonna..i meant POST but im on meds and a little...off....
> 
> oh yeah..i should actually share..heh
> 
> ...


Love this advice! Aggie is learning to put her own toys away and I think that's her best trick. My Squirt who passed away would pick up cups or dishes from the living room and take it to the kitchen (sometimes she dind't wait till you were finished cuz she knew she'd get a treat LOL).


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> These dogs were untrained before you had kids. You were not dedicated to consistant training then.. and now it is even harder to do. This is what I am getting out of your posts. Your posts are EXACTLY why I say do not get a dog until the kids are at least 10 years old.
> 
> Training dogs is mostly prevention and consistancy. Punishing a dog by showing him a wrapper only tells the dog you are to be feared (and you are because you have punished this dog enough that you have crossed his bite threshold). You have summed it up by saying you are "pissed." Instead of being angry with the dog, you should be angry at yourself for leaving the bread on the counter where the dog can get it!
> 
> ...


No, I think she had the dogs before the kids (right???) Though please correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah showing a dog the wrapper/package/torn bag anything & then punishing them for it is useless because the dog won't connect it. The best thing yoiu can do if you don't have a securely fenced yard that yiu can leave them during the day (mine stay out during the day) then either have a drag leash on them (if you are a stay at home mom) or a crate to plce them in when you are away. But also keep in mind that after a day of being in a crate they will be full of vigor lol.

The walk is soooo important but if you can't walk them as long as you want, get one of those doggy packpacks & weigh it down with drinks or anything you want to put in there lol. You dogs, esp your swissy, who is a working dog, will benifit from it. Izze used to carry a backpack when I used to hike a lot.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> The walk is soooo important but if you can't walk them as long as you want, get one of those doggy packpacks & weigh it down with drinks or anything you want to put in there lol. You dogs, esp your swissy, who is a working dog, will benifit from it. Izze used to carry a backpack when I used to hike a lot.


I think there is a thread for this and it was really interesting, the only thing you want to keep in mind is to keep the weight evenly shifted so one side of his back isn't carrying more weight then the other. I have heard of water bottles and soup cans being used but someone else who does it can spark up more suggestions. I personally like the the waterbottle thing cause it gives you the bonus of having water with you if you need it


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yeah on trail rides I used to carry gatorade & water in Izze's when we used ti go on trail rides. Yes amavanna is right, of you need to distribute the weight of whatever your putting in there.


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## baby2nicole (Feb 2, 2011)

We do have a HUGE fenced in backyard. During the warmer months I've tried to just let them stay outside, but they go out and go potty, and then just come and whine at the door. They jump up on it, and scratch at it, and cry until we let them in. 

We cannot be in the front yard with the dogs in the fenced in back yard with out them crying constantly. 

And yeah, we had the dogs before kids.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

baby2nicole said:


> How do you 'release' the dog?


I use the word "enough" or "go ahead" as release words. I train it by saying the word and engaging a game... or tossing a bit of food. It is important to train a release word (as important as any command cue). 



baby2nicole said:


> We do have a HUGE fenced in backyard. During the warmer months I've tried to just let them stay outside, but they go out and go potty, and then just come and whine at the door. They jump up on it, and scratch at it, and cry until we let them in.
> 
> We cannot be in the front yard with the dogs in the fenced in back yard with out them crying constantly.
> 
> And yeah, we had the dogs before kids.


Dogs want to be with you. If they did not, why have them? If they did not, they never would have domesticated!

Yes. I know you had dogs b4 you had kids and I did say that.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

My husband made me use "at ease" he plays too much call of duty


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

I entered a very...pink...house and wondered why there were vampire curtains hanging in the window...


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