# What to do with an aggressive dog?



## Mrswindupbird (Jul 6, 2012)

I adopted a puppy when he was about 8 weeks old, and made sure to socialize him because I wanted him to be friendly, happy and healthy. Anyway, I use to take him to public places, he had a puppy play/training class, and went to the dog park. When he was about 8 months old, I couldn't take him to the dog park anymore because he started being rough with the other dogs, more than just playing.

Fast forward to today, he is horrible. I love him, but he just is not friendly. He doesn't like any people, animals...anything. Which makes living in an apartment nearly impossible, because every time I have to walk him it is like a fbi mission to get him out around the other people and dogs. He seems to just be getting worse, which is probably my fault for trying to keep him away from people now. I did buy a muzzle when he started getting worse but he can still bark in it (a mesh one from petsmart) so he could probably still bite, even though it is tight on him.


Sorry for the rant but I am just not sure how to help him. This morning while getting off the elevator (I live on the third floor) a lady was about to be getting on the elevator, he didn't have his muzzle because I had left it in the car, stupid I know, but I have never seen him try to bite someone that hard before....he actually bit me trying to get to her.


I know if you don't have money you shouldn't get a pet, I have money for his food, toys, and can usually find enough when he needs to see a vet, but I just can't afford special aggressive dog training. Every trainer I have contacted that works with aggression cost 800 - 1200 dollars.



If any one can offer me some advice, I would greatly appreciate it. Sorry for the long rant


(I am trying to save up for aggression training, just looking for things to do and tips on how to help in the mean time. )

(he is a mix, I believe his parents were Lab/pitbull/Catahoula Leopard dog mix, maybe some shepherd in him as well, he is pretty big, about 70 pounds. He will turn 4 in November.)


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## PinkySue (Jul 8, 2012)

*Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

As a dog owner for many years and having lived amongst dog owners, I have seen dogs have a lot of different personalities. Now I consider dogs to be as individual as human beings, but no dog should ever go over a person in terms of the hierarchy that you lay forth. If the dog is dictating your behavior, such as sneaking out at night to avoid contact with others, something is very wrong. You need to establish your dominance and that could mean serious discipline.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



PinkySue said:


> You need to establish your dominance and that could mean serious discipline.


I'd love to hear some elaboration on this.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Bleh, do not take any advice that contains the word "dominant" at all. Unfortunately, it's pretty dangerous to give any advice on aggression over the internet. While you save, all I can say is the relaxation protocol: http://www.dogscouts.org/Protocol_for_relaxation.html 

and begin safe Look at That games. You can manage the reactivity in the mean time without actually putting any one else at risk. Also, have you had a full panel of blood work checking for thyroid levels and the like at your vet?


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Get a different muzzle, like a full leather basket type he can't bite with. Do not give him access to bite, ever. If you are not experienced handling people aggressive dogs, you are in over your head, and need to get the dog with someone who can help the situation. He needs work, and the best thing you can do is preventing him from being euthanized at this point if he were to bite.

If you don't understand what is causing.g the aggression, you will definitely make it worse by doing serious corrections. Some dogs do need corrections with aggression, but you have to know what is going on, why he is behaving the way he is, and if a correction or redirection and exactly when.to apply. Many think to give corrections when showing aggression, and if the dog is acting out of fear, it will make it worse ten fold. 

Contact the shelters or humane societies, vet clinics, or rescues to see if they can recommend someone at a.more affordable price.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

I think you've been given really great advice so far. 

I just wanted to say I'm sad for your situation and hope that you and your dog can find a good way to be around others soon. 

Sneaking around is definitely a bad idea. I had an animal aggressive foster rescue with no bite inhibition, in a neighborhood where everyone (literally) had a dog. We drove to the cemetery and walked there- usually at 5:30am. The people who adopted her had the time and money to get her help, but she was never a dog that could go to the dog park or be left unattended outside.

Hoping good things for you!


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## oldhounddog (May 31, 2010)

How much time do you have to work with your dog on a daily basis?
Do you have a strong crate for your dog?

The bite to you is a reaction from a dog that is already in high drive and vision to target is blocked. I have seen this before in bite work training , the dog is in full drive and a trainer steps forward unexpectedly before release and is bitten on leg. 

I am currently working with a aggressive dog that was pinned up so long without human interaction and food thrown to dog and water poured into fenced area and prolly mistreated also that became a liability to owner.

I agree with Juliemule , you need a properly fitted quality basket type muzzle of heavy duty construction that will not loosen and come off. Your crate will need to be quality construction that dog cannot destroy and get out.

You know full well that this problem did not just appear one day, and , you have been seeing warning signs of aggressive behavior for a long time if dog is 4 yo. Living in a building and having to use an elevator with dog will require you to make safety decisions that will insure the safety of others as well as you and your dog right away.

What types of aggression have you witnessed with dog?

What sets dog off?

What is day like with dog and who besides you can handle dog safely? 

What kind of leash and collar do you use?

There are some basic steps you can take to improve in most cases with limited resources if you keep safety first and you are honest with self about your ability to handle dog.
Give as much information as possible.............

oldhounddog


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

Oh, and I was going to recommend the stairs if you can manage it.....just until your dog gets more comfortable.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



PinkySue said:


> but no dog should ever go over a person in terms of the hierarchy that you lay forth. If the dog is dictating your behavior, such as sneaking out at night to avoid contact with others, something is very wrong. You need to establish your dominance and that could mean serious discipline.


Or it could be that you need to carefully manage his behavior around strangers, and start setting some rules and controlling his resources so that all good things come from you. (NILIF). A book you might want to read is "Click to Calm" by Emma Parsons. Also "Feisty Fido" by Patricia McConnell. It does sound like you could use professional help, and I hope it will come from someone who doesn't ask you to "seriously discipline" your dog - which will leave him with nobody he can trust. By the way, for walks, a basket muzzle is much better than a mesh one. They can take treats and they can open their mouth to pant. This is a nice secure one: http://store.clickertraining.com/baskerville-ultra-muzzle.html


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## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



PinkySue said:


> You need to establish your dominance and that could mean serious discipline.


That's a good way to get people hurt and the dog put down because of it. 

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/
http://drsophiayin.com/resources/dog_behavior/#dog bite prevention


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

This can be treated and fixed. It's really hard to tell what is causing this (owner not taking the lead role, something bad happen, lack of socialization, boredom/not enough exercise) over the internet. Now no disrepect Pawz9, click to calm and feisty fido are good books, but treats and clickers SHOULD NOT be used in this situation. The situation seems past the clicker and treat point, any respected "aggression trainer" won't use either of those training tools. Personally, I think the use of "dominance" from an earlier post was the wrong word choice, you do need to become the leader of your household. You DO NOT need to do that with force. By your dog trying to bite you to get to the lady in the elevator, that shows a lack of respect and trust the dog has for/in you. You need to start running a tighter ship, and not sure if your dog is pulling, lunging and barking on walks, but you need to get those walks structured (at your side, focused on the walk, no need to be sniffing anything). A structured walk is the first step in building a solid foundation with your dog. Best of luck to you! By the way 800-1200 is an awesome price for a board and train. It's a AWFUL price if its one on one training at your house. Do your research on trainers that work with aggressive dogs, a lot say they do, but in reality a lot have not/or would not taken on certain aggression cases.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

There isn't much more to add onto the advice you've already been given, don't try to "dominate" your dog with force, if he's already bitten you, then you are beyond a point where you can try that. He has little trust in you, and you can't really blame him, taking him out on a walk you're nervous, scared, frustrated, how could he possibly react calmly, when his handler isn't calm. You see a person and you get scared because you're scared he's going to bite, he feels that, he has to control the situation, and then a bite happens, and you get even more scared and he gets more controlling.
You've been in situations where you have stopped him from biting someone, you've survived essentially. Use that to give you confidence and you'll stay calm. You can stop him without freaking out. 
Every time he messes up is just a chance for you to help him get it right. When he messes up just try to get him into a sit position and get him to stay in a sit position until the person/dog/whatever can go by, reward him for that. Better he learns to be in a sit position, next to you when something shows up than lunging at it barking. It's not a solution, I couldn't offer one without actually working with the dog, but it's management, until a proper trainer can be reached.

Here are two videos teaching you how to teach your dog the heel command, which would be useful in getting your dog into the sit position next to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi_WJN8v3ag

This one is by Victoria Stillwell, but it is essentially the same as the other one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYmRaGyqsJs


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## DaneLover228 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

You've gotten some good advice so far. 

I would suggest getting a basket type muzzle. Those have absolutely no chance of being able to still bite. Is your dog neutered? Could there be an underlying medical issue that you just don't know about? A lot of times when dogs are sick or in some sort of pain, they become aggressive. Just because he doesn't show outward signs of being sick, doesn't mean he isn't.

I would also suggest a behaviorist. They know what to do with aggressive dogs. I know they are expensive, but this is something that can be dangerous if tried to fix by yourself.

Definitely don't try to assert your dominance. Yes, your dog should know that you are in charge, but you don't do that by being dominant over him. Especially with one that is already aggressive. Since he is also aggressive towards you, he thinks he is the alpha in the house. I would suggest NILIF (nothing in life is free) training immediately. Which means he gets no treats, attention, etc unless he is being non aggressive. When its feeding time, have him sit and wait for his food. Don't let him have it until he is sitting quietly and you say it's okay. Thats what I did with my dog who had food aggression. If you are in charge of their food, they are more likely to view you as the leader. You can read more about NILIF by googling it.

I hope at least some of my advice is helpful. Good luck!


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

You do not need a behaviorist. You need a trainer whose main focus is aggression. Also stay far away from anything Victoria Stillwell, as all trainers should know Victoria Stillwell is not even a trainer. She was/is an actor that was picked out for the tv show, and things took off from there. Google it to see for yourself. Shame on you for even recommending her. I've seen more footage of her telling people to put their dogs down, when in reality 10-15 minutes with a real trainer could have saved the dogs life. You want to see a real trainer in action, youtube Solid k9 training. Jeff Gellman is probably one if not the best aggression/rehab trainer in the country.


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## DaneLover228 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> You do not need a behaviorist. You need a trainer whose main focus is aggression.


That's what a dog behaviorist is...it's a trainer who focuses on dog behavior such as aggression....so yes, she needs a behaviorist.


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Actually they are not the same. Behaviorists are different than dog trainers perhaps most strikingly in their approach. Behaviorists look backwards to determine the etiology of the behavior in order to determine which method of modification is best, or to decide, in some cases, that the behavior cannot be sufficiently modified to satisfy the owners and be safe. Behaviorists certainly use classical dog training as an essential technique, but they go through extensive diagnostics first. Dog trainers look forward and set their goal on a particular behavior and then implement standard training techniques. The behaviorist wants to understand the behavior itself; the dog trainer wants to get the dog to do something.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> You do not need a behaviorist. You need a trainer whose main focus is aggression. Also stay far away from anything Victoria Stillwell, as all trainers should know Victoria Stillwell is not even a trainer. She was/is an actor that was picked out for the tv show, and things took off from there. Google it to see for yourself. Shame on you for even recommending her. I've seen more footage of her telling people to put their dogs down, when in reality 10-15 minutes with a real trainer could have saved the dogs life. You want to see a real trainer in action, youtube Solid k9 training. Jeff Gellman is probably one if not the best aggression/rehab trainer in the country.


I have never heard of the trainer you recommend, but I agree with you on Victoria stillwell. So much drama, and I don't care for her methods.
Any good trainer should know dog behaviour, and how to work with them. If not they aren't a good trainer. Seems likeo now, everyone has to have a title to be something, when the best "behaviorists" are good experienced trainers.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> This can be treated and fixed. It's really hard to tell what is causing this (owner not taking the lead role, something bad happen, lack of socialization, boredom/not enough exercise) over the internet. Now no disrepect Pawz9, click to calm and feisty fido are good books, but treats and clickers SHOULD NOT be used in this situation. The situation seems past the clicker and treat point, any respected "aggression trainer" won't use either of those training tools. Personally, I think the use of "dominance" from an earlier post was the wrong word choice, you do need to become the leader of your household. You DO NOT need to do that with force. By your dog trying to bite you to get to the lady in the elevator, that shows a lack of respect and trust the dog has for/in you. You need to start running a tighter ship, and not sure if your dog is pulling, lunging and barking on walks, but you need to get those walks structured (at your side, focused on the walk, no need to be sniffing anything). A structured walk is the first step in building a solid foundation with your dog. Best of luck to you! By the way 800-1200 is an awesome price for a board and train. It's a AWFUL price if its one on one training at your house. Do your research on trainers that work with aggressive dogs, a lot say they do, but in reality a lot have not/or would not taken on certain aggression cases.


What is with this thread? 

OP: Treats and clicking absolutely can work. I had a severely DA dog (he went through a glass window at another dog. he dislocated my shoulder to get at a dog. he was bad.) that I trained, myself, with treats and patience. I'm not going to recommend you do this yourself (Muggsy was absolutely safe with humans), you do not need to crack the whip or show 'im who's boss or any other silliness. Get a muzzle for now (basket muzzles are best. I used one with Muggsy for a year) and save up for a *positive *behaviorist.

Oh, and you need to be calm when you're walking the dog. I know, I know, easier said than done, but emotion does "travel down the leash". Your dog knows you're scared, but he will never think that he is causing that fear. He assumes it's that guy walking down the street, or that child riding his bike or that dog over there. So he becomes aggressive towards those things to make them go away.

I'm not saying you cause your dog's aggression, but his aggression + your fear of the worst happening becomes the most vicious of negative feedback loops. You'll need to short circuit it.


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Prior to the dog going through the glass to get at another dog, what kind of training did the dog have? Treats and clickers do work for "some" dogs, what about the ones those tools don't work for? What about the dogs that aren't treat motivated? Then what? You can save up for a "positive" trainer. Just be prepared to spend some money because to get to point A to point B its going to take some time (plus you more then likely will have to hire someone else, who doesn't take the "positive" approach). Also, don't forget to purchase a tool belt, to carry your clicker and treats, because I'm pretty sure you are going to need both hands to control your dog on the leash. Best of luck!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> Now no disrepect Pawz9, click to calm and feisty fido are good books, but treats and clickers SHOULD NOT be used in this situation. The situation seems past the clicker and treat point, any respected "aggression trainer" won't use either of those training tools. .


Bunk (I know, too short, but that sums up the above statement) And if you'd read anything by McConnell, you'd know she's not a clicker ttrainer.


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

I was talking about click to calm, she even talks about how it took over a year to get her dog to accept certain things through clicker training. A year?? Really? Pick apart what you may, quote authors of "positive", suggest "positive" reading material, whatever makes you feel better about your "positive" approach. I see more dogs that are surrendered to shelters because of certain behavioral issues that couldn't be treated the "positive" way. People getting bad advice from "positive" trainers because their methods didn't work with that dog. I see it everyday and its very sad. Coming from a Senior Member I would expect something more intelligent and mature then using "bunk" to describe something.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> Actually they are not the same. Behaviorists are different than dog trainers perhaps most strikingly in their approach. Behaviorists look backwards to determine the etiology of the behavior in order to determine which method of modification is best, or to decide, in some cases, that the behavior cannot be sufficiently modified to satisfy the owners and be safe. Behaviorists certainly use classical dog training as an essential technique, but they go through extensive diagnostics first. Dog trainers look forward and set their goal on a particular behavior and then implement standard training techniques. The behaviorist wants to understand the behavior itself; the dog trainer wants to get the dog to do something.


I agree that behaviorist and trainer are not interchangable terms. In the US, a behaviorist has college credentials - either as a vet with a specialization in behavior, or as an applied animal behaviorist. The thing is, you can punish certain behaviors until the dog avoids giving them. But if you haven't changed the meaning of the situation for the dog (which smart behaviorists AND smart trainers work on) the unwanted behavior can surface again, or the dog's perception can cause other unwanted behaviors. Because the dog is still feeling froggy about the situation. If the dog still perceives a threat, but you've punished the symptom away, you've simply put a bandaid on the problem. For some dogs in some situations, that may be enough. For others it is not.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> I was talking about click to calm, she even talks about how it took over a year to get her dog to accept certain things through clicker training. A year?? Really? Pick apart what you may, quote authors of "positive", suggest "positive" reading material, whatever makes you feel better about your "positive" approach. I see more dogs that are surrendered to shelters because of certain behavioral issues that couldn't be treated the "positive" way. People getting bad advice from "positive" trainers because their methods didn't work with that dog. I see it everyday and its very sad. Coming from a Senior Member I would expect something more intelligent and mature then using "bunk" to describe something.


You mentioned both books. It probably took her longer to modify her dog's behavior because she mistakenly went to a traditional trainer first - who jerked the snot out of her dog on a prong collar for looking at other dogs, and escalated the problem. I see that all the time when people come to me because force has only made the bad behavior worse. Bunk was the most descriptive term I could think of for the misinformation I was reading that wouldn't get me banned. Sorry. By the way, I did traditional way longer than I've done clicker training. In 34 years, I've had plenty of time to observe what works and what doesn't. I choose and recommend what I find to be most effective.


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

I'm going to leave this thread with this....There will always be a battle between the positive and non-positive training approach. Maybe one day both approaches can find common ground and realize it's about the dog. We waste a lot of time arguing with each other, at times the main reason of what we do and who we do it for gets lost in the shuffle. Just a thought.


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

By traditional, I think you mean Kohlers yank and crank method..right? Does anyone still use that method? Todays "non-positive" methods are about allowing the dog to make the right choices. So if you aren't up to date on todays training approaches besides treats and clickers, I suggest you brush up on your "traditional" verbage.


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## skitty56 (Jan 22, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> By traditional, I think you mean Kohlers yank and crank method..right? Does anyone still use that method? Todays "non-positive" methods are about allowing the dog to make the right choices. So if you aren't up to date on todays training approaches besides treats and clickers, I suggest you brush up on your "traditional" verbage.


I don't think you correctly understand the verbiage, positive training is all about letting the dog choose their behavior-you reward the stuff you want, and ignore what you don't want. Eventually they realize what they get rewarded for and offer those behaviors--it is the dog's choice, we just help them figure out what will get them rewarded and what won't.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> Todays "non-positive" methods are about allowing the dog to make the right choices.


Really? You mean, like .. the way Jeff Gellman *allows the dog to make the right choice* to lie down, in this video? ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ1LVlo0blU&list=UUdxxOQ_Le6xh2_2gDXX2Ukw&index=6&feature=plcp

Lying down is probably the most simple, and easiest behaviour to teach a dog through R+ methods. Any half-way competent trainer can accomplish this in short order, without resorting to any type of force.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> I'm going to leave this thread with this....There will always be a battle between the positive and non-positive training approach. Maybe one day both approaches can find common ground and realize it's about the dog. We waste a lot of time arguing with each other, at times the main reason of what we do and who we do it for gets lost in the shuffle. Just a thought.


I think the best way to find common ground is for the people who are clueless about certain methods to stop declaring that those methods don't work. Especially to people who ARE familiar with the method and have seen/had it work.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> By traditional, I think you mean Kohlers yank and crank method..right? Does anyone still use that method? Todays "non-positive" methods are about allowing the dog to make the right choices. So if you aren't up to date on todays training approaches besides treats and clickers, I suggest you brush up on your "traditional" verbage.


I thought you just said your goodbyes? By traditional I don't necessarily mean Koehler (and it wouldn't hurt to spell his name right. Kohler makes bathroom fixtures, I think. And yes, the KMDT is still in use by quite a few folks.) There's a wide range of techniques out there. It's more a difference of philosophy than "yank and thank" vs. "clicker". I would,for instance, consider luring to be more on the traditional side, though it clearly uses food (and I've been known to recommend it for dogs who were afraid to offer behaviors because of previous training).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



skitty56 said:


> I don't think you correctly understand the verbiage, positive training is all about letting the dog choose their behavior-you reward the stuff you want, and ignore what you don't want. Eventually they realize what they get rewarded for and offer those behaviors--it is the dog's choice, we just help them figure out what will get them rewarded and what won't.


You don't actually completely ignore stuff you don't want. You just don't reinforce the dog with attention for doing it. But there are some behaviors that are self-reinforcing, and you have to come up with a better plan than just ignoring them. Fortunately, with clicker training, that is very do-able without resorting to physical force.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> This can be treated and fixed. It's really hard to tell what is causing this (owner not taking the lead role, something bad happen, lack of socialization, boredom/not enough exercise) over the internet. Now no disrepect Pawz9, click to calm and feisty fido are good books, but treats and clickers SHOULD NOT be used in this situation. The situation seems past the clicker and treat point, any respected "aggression trainer" won't use either of those training tools. Personally, I think the use of "dominance" from an earlier post was the wrong word choice, you do need to become the leader of your household. You DO NOT need to do that with force. By your dog trying to bite you to get to the lady in the elevator, that shows a lack of respect and trust the dog has for/in you. You need to start running a tighter ship, and not sure if your dog is pulling, lunging and barking on walks, but you need to get those walks structured (at your side, focused on the walk, no need to be sniffing anything). A structured walk is the first step in building a solid foundation with your dog. Best of luck to you! By the way 800-1200 is an awesome price for a board and train. It's a AWFUL price if its one on one training at your house. Do your research on trainers that work with aggressive dogs, a lot say they do, but in reality a lot have not/or would not taken on certain aggression cases.


You don't know if it can be treated and fixed. No one here knows that. 

And, interesting. I rehabbed my aggressive Dachshund with clickers and treats and all that fun stuff. It's also working wonders with my previously totally shut down terrified foster. 

Small potatoes, but a redirected bite has nothing to do with a dog respecting or trusting you. You are the force stopping a dog from going after something it wants, and some dogs redirect.


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

All good, rip me apart anyway you would like. You have your ways, I have mine. I was not looking to get into an argument. Sorry if I offended anyone, was truly not my intention. If what you use works, great. If what I use works, great. All I know is tomorrow I have to go down to the shelter and see about two dogs that are on the elist. I fully intend to rescue, rehab and find good homes for. hopefully we can all agree its about saving these great animals. Thank you and have a good night.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> All I know is tomorrow I have to go down to the shelter and see about two dogs that are on the elist.


Well, great? I go to work at a shelter every day and I have my very own euth list dog.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> All good, rip me apart anyway you would like. You have your ways, I have mine. I was not looking to get into an argument. Sorry if I offended anyone, was truly not my intention. If what you use works, great. If what I use works, great. All I know is tomorrow I have to go down to the shelter and see about two dogs that are on the elist. I fully intend to rescue, rehab and find good homes for. hopefully we can all agree its about saving these great animals. Thank you and have a good night.


or . . . ._I'm going to leave this thread with this_.... Why is it some balanced trainers (not all, I'm not big on painting with that broad a brush) go storming in, making uninformed statements about other methods and then want to play the martyr if anyone dare speak up to correct the misinformation?


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Ok, I tried to apologize. Accept or don't....fair enough. Not playing the martyr at all, your views are just that, your views. Mine just the same. This can go on forever, since I started it, I thought I would try to end it with an apology. @thosewordsatbest- If you work at a shelter then you know how many good dogs or dogs with potential get euthanized everyday. Its very sad to see them get left to figure out their own way alone. So good for you for the elist dog and shelter job, not a whole lot of people doing it. Hope this ends here.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Sorry, just a small beef of mine to end a discussion with one of those "Well I'll be off saving dogs." statements because that's what a lot of us here do, and in a disagreement about training it's kind of unfair to imply those who differ somehow aren't saving dogs. The dogs ARE what matter, like you said, however the approach matters as well. Had I approached my euth list foster the wrong way I could have irreparably damaged her, and then I wouldn't have really been saving her just because I removed her from the environment that wanted to euth her.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Mostly my only problem with responding to this thread (and others like it) is that we do not know the dog in question, we do not know any thing about what is causing the aggression, and offering any advice on aggression here is dangerous. The OP should be seeking out a professional.


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## Empowered K9 (Jul 9, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Totally agree! Saving dogs off the elist to getting them rehomed is something I do, not a childish statement at all. I go there once every two weeks, couldn't imagine doing it everyday. An hr there is hard enough. I sent a message to Pawz, guess I could have posted it here. 3 times in the last week I've gotten calls from people about "positive" trainers recommending their dog be put down (3 in one week is crazy), and this is by 3 different companies. Now in each case, sure the dog had issues, but nothing that couldn't be fixed. Not sure what is going on out here, but it does worry me. I took my frustration out on positive trainers, who to me know what their doing. Wasn't fair, wasn't right and I'll admit that. So thanks for bringing this to an end. I will definitely be more aware of my response to a topic next time.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



Empowered K9 said:


> I sent a message to Pawz, guess I could have posted it here. 3 times in the last week I've gotten calls from people about "positive" trainers recommending their dog be put down (3 in one week is crazy), and this is by 3 different companies. Now in each case, sure the dog had issues, but nothing that couldn't be fixed. Not sure what is going on out here, but it does worry me. I took my frustration out on positive trainers, who to me know what their doing. Wasn't fair, wasn't right and I'll admit that. So thanks for bringing this to an end. I will definitely be more aware of my response to a topic next time.


Yes, we've buried the hatchet (hopefully not in each other). As I pointed out to this poster in PM, not everyone who claims to be "positive" really meets what most people's definition would be. It's become a catch phrase and marketing tool. The Chicago Ami Moore, who gets dogs to move around by strapping multiple ecollars to different parts of their anatomy refers to herself as a positive trainer and her ecollars as "e-clickers". Bark Busters, whose method seems to involve basically throwing chains at dogs and shouting Bah! claim to be "positive" in their methods. The person who trained in my area who most often recommended killing dogs for behavior reasons referred to her methods as "positive" even though her most used tools were the prong and ecollar. Not wanting to get into debate about those tools, but someone whom I have witnessed actually balancing her clicker on top of her remote would probably be considered, at most, a "balanced" trainer. Because she recommended euthanasia for dogs who later came to my school and left not dead but much improved, doesn't mean the blame lies with either the philosophy she claimed to embrace or the one she actually did embrace. I knew her for many years, and always got the impression that she was a wee bit afraid of dogs. This does not mean I think there's never a cause to euthanize a dog for dangerous behavior. In 34 years, I think I've recommended it once, for a dog who, in my opinion, was somewhat miswired and could go from totally friendly demeanor to a level four bite in a split second. He was on his fourth home in 6 months and his elderly owners were terrified of him. I did not consider that he could be made a "safe" rehome. I've also told some people that it might be an option they needed to consider if they were unable or unwilling to really follow a behavior protocol and maintain it, and keep the safety of everyone priority one. And I would never recommend it over the internet.


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## pawsplus (May 4, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

All other things aside, first steps are to neuter the dog if he has not been neutered (OP has never returned to answer questions!) and have a thyroid panel run, as hypothyroid dogs are not infrequently aggressive.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

bringing back an old thread. The trainer recommended earlier for aggression has a philosophy about how a dog should live that I think most here, "positive" or "balanced", would find abusive.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Did we ever find out what happened to the original OP/ her dog?

I did send my dog to boot camp(not for aggression specifically, but most of the dogs there were large male aggressive dogs) and there were, eventually e- collars in play-- but he must have been a good motivator b/c when you would go the line of kennels, those dogs would be right up against the chain link to be selected to Work, and he really loved dogs... he was pretty fair imo...

My dog loved him and would get so excited when we went back for weekly classes....


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

Im not speaking of E-collars. I use them.

Its his views as expressed in this vid that a dog should sit in its kennel w no stimulation and do nothing, structured walks/treadmill only no activity that may excite the dog like "throwing a ball" not to mention SA doesnt exist or will be gone in 24 hours(that only happens if the dog is totally shut down). . 

Did you send your dog to gellman?


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



jiml said:


> Im not speaking of E-collars. I use them.
> 
> Its his views as expressed in this vid that a dog should sit in its kennel w no stimulation and do nothing, structured walks/treadmill only no activity that may excite the dog like "throwing a ball" not mention SA doesnt exist or will be gone in 24 hours(that only happens if the dog is totally shut down). .
> 
> Did you send your dog to gellman?


No way, I sent mine to a local guy reccomended by a friend who is pretty well regarded in the local Schutzhund community as well as breeds and shows, and works with Canine Companions for Independence ...
Just letting the OP know she isnt the only one who ever used(or thought to use) Boot camp....


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*

He's not saying that "a" dog should live it's life this way. He's suggesting a training protocol for specific dogs who are suffering from a constant state of arousal, which consists of NOT arousing the dog.

To be clear I'm not defending him. I think his ideas are totally off-base 99% of the time, from what I've seen.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



pawsplus said:


> All other things aside, first steps are to neuter the dog if he has not been neutered (OP has never returned to answer questions!) and have a thyroid panel run, as hypothyroid dogs are not infrequently aggressive.


THIS^^^^^And get a basket muzzle, not the nylon ones.
OP_The nylon ones that fit snugly are used only for things like being examined at a vet, nail clipping, or other quick things. They aren't meant to be worn when being walked, as they can't pant in them and being tight, add to a dog's stress level, if put in a situation where they are seeing other dogs.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

*Re: Dogs Are Only as Aggressive as You Let Them Be*



spotted nikes said:


> THIS^^^^^And get a basket muzzle, not the nylon ones.
> OP_The nylon ones that fit snugly are used only for things like being examined at a vet, nail clipping, or other quick things. They aren't meant to be worn when being walked, as they can't pant in them and being tight, add to a dog's stress level, if put in a situation where they are seeing other dogs.


Just wanted to second basket muzzle. My friends dog had a nylon one and he nipped my butt pretty good through one.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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