# Uncontrolable Biting



## osva (Dec 22, 2014)

Hello guys,

I have already started a thread about my Cavoodle (Happy) asking for help on how to train him overall. I have had some wonderfull feedback and it has done wonders for us and his training. However, that thread is now very mixed with different conversations and in the last 2 days I have come accross something that is starting to worry me.

Happy was born on 23rd of October so he is just over 8 weeks. We picked him up from a Breeder when he was 7.5 weeks old. I know they have to stay with their littermates for at least 8 weeks to learn things such as biting inhibition, but the breeder said the 2 days wouldnt make a difference and due to the distance to the breeder we had to get him earlier. I actually believe that he was separated from his mother around 7 weeks of age. I don't think this was a good idea, but I was not aware that she had done that at the time. She said she always does this to help the pups settle into their new home. Not sure how that works....

I have had Rotties as well as Golden Retriever (my parents dog). Retrievers are known to be biters and love mouthing, but we had no issue with him at all with biting - he was never interested it any of it (massive surprise for us). Rotties chewed up everything in their path but never mouthed or bit us - and I was a child at the time so I would've got quite annoying for them trying to play with them.

My Cavoodle, Happy, is driving us mental. I have read probably 20 different articles/training tips and forum threads about people saying how to stop it. There is even one here about making a connection between bite and physical contact.

So here is my trouble:
He started mouthing when we first got him, which I did research on, and it is normal behaviour as they are getting familiar with the world and that is how they learn. As the owner it is my job to teach him how hard is too hard and how to help him be soft and gentle via positive feedback, treats and persistance. I tried this method, but he did not seem to really be interested that much.

I read something interested too, that teaching him what is soft and gentle is not a good idea, it is confusing as what is soft for me might not be actually that soft for someone else and he may hurt someone. As well as trying to each that biting is OK but only sometimes and not all the time. So the next step was to try ignoring him if he bites. Here is how that went:

Playing with a toy and patting him on the ground and giving him good feedback. Bites on my fingers - say ah-ah no biting. He licks - praise. Bites - no-biting (louder)! Continues biting. Move the hand away, he goes for the other hand, move that had away, he will bite whatever is near - feet, legs, other part of my arm and if he cant get to that - clothes - I stand up. He then goes for my feet, bare feet = toes, with socks = bite even harder, shoes = even more fun. So I start walking away, he chaces and bites my ankles. I have tried this over and over and over again. The more I try the faster, more often and harder he bites. It is like he loves the fact that I try to 'run away' from him and it is all a fun game.

I spoke to some people who have had biters and they said its a longer process and he will continue doing so until he is done teething and I should just keep doing the repetitions. 

The pup is already 98% potty trained and he is 8 weeks old! He sleeps with us in our bedroom with the door open and he will not pee/poo anywhere and that is for about 7 hours while we sleep. I wake up and take him to the balcony and he does it, he even runs and sits near the door when he needs to go. I thought this would take me months and I was able to achieve this potty training in under a week. So he is a good learner.

The biting has gotten much worse now. He has now made the connection that if he bites us or the furniture or anything else he gets attention. And it is not possitive attention. He was never scared of clapping or rolled newspaper or any other noise - it all had no link for him and I have never hit him with anything. Which makes it hard to get him to stop doing something, as this is reinforcment. Bite and chew = gets picked up = attention. This is what is happening the last 2 days:

All the above when I walk away, but then he will go and bite an object, table legs, chairs, fridge or anything else, leading to me having to pick him up or drag him away or push him away from the object. This encourages him to go at it even harder and it turns into a game of me pulling him away from the object and him going at it. If I pick him up, he will bite my hands, i put him down, bites my feet and we have just done a full circle. Bite bite bite and if he cant bite me, he bites an object. He has now learned that if he bites he gets attention and he can get things, ie being put back down on the floor when we are carrying him or holding him at the door while someone is leaving so he cant run out - he bites us.

Next step, we can no longer play with him, tug of war, or chasing the toy around the house has turned into painful games. If I am dragging the toy on the floor or holding it up away from him so he needs to run and grab it and pull it away from me, he now just goes straight for my hand/arm. No interest in the toy itself, he does not even chew the toy on his own. I move my hand away, stand up and there we have it again - same circle.

So far, redirection to a toy with praise has not worked, ignoring has not worked. I have also tried punishment via time out in the pen. When he bites my legs after I get up, I snatch him up, say ah-ah no biting and put him in the pen. He cries for about 2-5mins then sits there watching me. I give him some praise once he is queit and let him out. Take a guess what he does next? - charges towards an object and bites it. Causing me to pick him up/pull him away - and we are back to the same circle. 

You may say, remove objects that he bites - there is nothing left to remove! He even bites the skirting around the floor! Or the corner of the wall, a door stopper and if there is nothing else - the carpet or anything else. If i let him just bite away at it, he will then look to see where I am and charge at my feet again, back to step 1 

Any other tips, or suggestions?

He is also biting much harder than before. And this is before his teething started?? I am going to be in a lot of pain if I cant solve this before teething starts. Not to mention I had to ignore him this whole morning, leaving for work without playing him, which leaves us both sad 

Should I be seeing professional help? Has anyone else had such a persistant biter?

Thanks!

EDIT:

I have just read an article online about Kind Charles Cavalier (who is one half of the pup) and they are advising not to play any games that encourage biting, ie tug of war or chase the toys and only play these games once he learns not to bite. It seems that these games have increased the biting since I have started playing them. So they are saying to remove any ques to initiate biting=/

Then the next article says I should play tug of war and other games to teach that he can play the game but as soon as he comes in contact with my skin - pull away and stand up.

No idea now....


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

So, you've had him a week? That's probably your problem right there. 

It sounds like you are literally doing everything right. But, unfortunately, it takes more time than a week. Depending on the breed, it can take months. 

I would stick with the time outs. Watson threw huge temper tantrums when I used to give him time outs for biting. He would literally ram his ex pen with his head. He would howl. Have you ever heard a corgi howl? It's weird. So, I just waited him out till he calmed down, and let him out. And he would bite me right away. So I put him back in his ex pen, he would throw his temper tantrum, and we would try again. It takes a lot of consistency. We got him at nine weeks old. And he was 12 or 13 weeks before we saw any progress at all. That's three weeks of CONSTANT biting. But I'd say by the time he was 16 weeks old, we had the biting well under control. There were still some slips up, but nothing catastrophic. At 6 months, he doesn't bite at all. 

Puppies that age aren't always terribly interested in toy. I'll keep giving you Watson examples so you can understand what I went through. He didn't touch a toy till he was 12 weeks old. Didn't like them. Not balls, not ropes, and chew toys. Nada. My hands were much more interesting. He learned though. Puppies don't naturally understand that toys are for them to play with. I didn't do anything in particular to get Watson to like toys. I just kept trying. Eventually, he got it. It clicked. Now he's a toy fiend. He has a dragons horde of toys that he love. I'd try food toys first. Bully sticks are great. Dog naturally want to chew on them. I have a tricky treat IQ ball from Amazon, and that got Watson interested in balls pretty quickly. 

I don't really know what else to tell you. The only thing I would add to what you're doing is a little more management. If he can't bite something, don't let him near it. If he bites the carpet, put him in the kitchen. You may also try bitter apple spray. It may work for you for a little while,but usually loses its effectiveness once a dog has tasted it a ton.


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## mama23dogs (Dec 18, 2014)

I posted the handout I use for class. You are a bit beyond that, or he is.
He isn't respecting you, which makes me think you are being to easy. You spoiled him.

You need to say "NO " loud, deep, sharp and scare him a bit. NEVER pull back, that creates a game, as you discovered. STOP playing it! Do not let him intimidate you.
If he doesn't retreat, then he goes onto crate or playpen for a time out. At the very least, keep him on a leash indoors as well and use the leash to keep him at arms length.

He needs more structure, training. Right now you are all free lunch, and a nice bed too ( which I would also no allow )
He needs to earn his place in the house with good behavior.

All the charging and biting only happens when you leave yourself available. Scoop him and dump him, no more nice lady until he behaves. As noted below, any game that gets him biting is not to be played.

Get him some proper chews, bones, real ones are best. Consider feeding his meals in a Kong. Soften dog food with water and or canned food, stuff kong and freeze. Serve instead of food in a bowl to keep puppy busy.

"You may say, remove objects that he bites - ". From now on, it's the puppy...LOL 

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stop Puppy Nipping 

Keep in mind, your puppy uses his mouth to explore his world. Dogs and puppies use their mouth on each other affectionately and as part of play. Your puppy will have learned to be careful with his teeth from his litter-mates and his Mom. 

You can let your puppy know when his "exploring" hurts the same way his litter-mates did - with a yelp!

This doesn't work as well if you don't speak with the correct "dog accent".

Your puppy may understand a firm "NO" better. 

Say "NO" sharply, then immediately get up, turn your back and ignore your puppy for 30 seconds. (I find a deep voice works best.)

This may not seem like much, but to a dog this is a serious punishment. Your attention and affection is very important. 

Your puppy will learn quickly that biting ends playtime. 

Dogs are very forgiving with each other. Mom and litter-mates will quickly forgive, forget and go back to playing. And so should you.

If your puppy bites again right away, extend the second "timeout" to a full minute. The third time requires a more serious time out. Crate puppy for a while till he calms down.

Never play any game that encourages your puppy to bite. That's only fair.

Trick of the trade! Some puppies need to learn how to use their mouth gently by learning a new behavior in place of nipping. Teaching an alternate behavior like licking is helpful. I use the cue word " lick" and offer a spot of peanut butter, cream cheese or canned dog food on my hand as a reward and teaching tool .


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

There's never a reason to scare a puppy (or adult dog). Training and structure are good - very good - but expecting respect (in the human sense of the word), using positive punishment or intimidation to train your pup, and/or making training a battle of wills can lead to bigger problems. Here's some advice from another thread:



> Puppies explore the world with their mouths! Stopping the nipping takes time and consistency - you need to stick with one method for several weeks (even months) for the nipping to stop completely. One of the most effective techniques is to remove your attention every time he bites. Here's some excellent advice from HankSimon
> 
> 
> hanksimon said:
> ...


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## osva (Dec 22, 2014)

chimunga said:


> So, you've had him a week? That's probably your problem right there.
> 
> It sounds like you are literally doing everything right. But, unfortunately, it takes more time than a week. Depending on the breed, it can take months.


Thank you for your response. And you are right, it definately helps using the examples. It is easy to read a step by step process, but it is hard to know what to do when the resulted behaviour is not expected. He only has been with us for over a week but his biting is much worse. I think it has been caused by me playing with the toy and making him attack the toy. I will keep at it and see how it goes. I was just worried I was doing something wrong as the results were making him bite more.

Thank you all for the replies. At least I know I am not alone in this and others are having problems too. I will try the ignoring technique as per suggestion cos I think that will actually work...eventually! 

He is such a bundle of joy and this biting is taking away the fun..

Do you guys know of any games to play besides once that encourage biting? I mean the only ones I can think of are fetch, but thats about it =/

I was told not to give the pup any real bones yet until he has real teeth cos his ones now are too soft and he can break them?=/

Thank you!


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

I have been through the biting thing so many times I guess I am just use to it. Many will tell you different things and what works for your dog may be different so you are going to have to try other things if the one does not work. the one cookieface linked is one of the best ones to try, it usually works. I have always let them bite me the first few times-as they have to bite you to learn not to do it-and they will! I would not change the games you play you need to make him learn now since you don't want an older dog doing it.
I have always given real non cooked bones to my pups as young as 8 weeks and have never had a problem, you do need to supervise any chew activity where they can shred/bite parts off(frozen washcloth for example).


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## StephanieE (Nov 19, 2014)

My pup is 6 months old and daily I still have to work with him on bighting. Somedays are worse then others. When its raining out and walking doesnt happen that day or our fetch game is not as long that night. Your pup in my eyes is still young. So teething is a major factor. Sometimes when I am sitting or kneeling on the floor, playing with him and if he nips me I just scoop him up remove him from the situation, putting him in a puppy proof space, and then try again. I also make a really loud aweful sound, which my husband hates, like if u accidentally stepped on your puppies paw the sound they make...my pup will look at me like what?!!?! I only work with him for short intervals. We are still having issues but I have a young toddler that sudden movements or sounds rile my pup up. Best way to get results is training in a quite space without any destractions.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I am on my phone so will make this short:

I work at a shelter. I train service dogs. Calm down. No dog is going to be perfect in a week. You are talking about things that take MONTHS. You are expecting way too much and way too soon.

Take a deep breath. Buy some neosporin. Put pup in crate when you need a break. Reevaluate in five months


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

I had bruises up and down my arms for months when I got my little angel. Considering that the the full force of his bite would probably break my arm, I guess I should have been impressed with how much bite inhibition he already had, lol.

As others have said, it takes a while. But if you keep enforcing the rules (Behavior A causes Consequence B, etc) in a timely manner, it will eventually click. As for games, the only one I can think of that doesn't involve the mouth is "Find It." Although, considering how much he bites inanimate objects, that might be best played outside.  I don't know much about exercising puppies, but my dog was pretty athletic (and older when I got him) so I would often run out all his excess energy to reduce the cabin fever that seemed to exacerbate the biting.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

He is so very very young! I agree with the others that you need to just take a step back and view him as the baby dog he is. My dog bit me, hard, until he was at least 8 months old. He's still a mouthy hell beast at over 2 years, but now he has a wonderfully inhibited bite and never leaves a mark no matter how excited and overstimulated he is. It just takes a very very long time in some dogs. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your puppy or with your training methods - you just need to allow him to grow up and for the ignoring method to work.

At the least, most puppies don't let up in mouthing until they are finished teething, around 6 months. Some stop dramatically at that point, and some keep going with the mouthing.

Also, tug of war and playing with toys are great outlets for his energy. Yes, at some point you need to be clear that going for your hand instead of the toy makes the game end, but he's so young. For now, just try to shove the toy into his mouth, instead of expecting him to know where to grab the toy. He will get it.


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## osva (Dec 22, 2014)

Thank you all for your responses!

I think the biggest part where I am going wrong is that I forget how little he is. We only had him for 2 weeks only.

I am just surprised I was able to train him to poo/pee outside within 2 weeks. 2 days ago we were down to 2 accidents and yesterday we only had 1 and that was my fault for not being quick enough to let him out after nap/play time. This I thought will take me months to do and now he holds his wee and poo all through the night until we wake up in the morning and when he does need to go he sits by the window waiting.

My biggest worry was that I was doing something wrong as his biting was getting worse. One day there is improvement and the next we are going backwards. Just wanted to make sure I am taking the right steps to ensure he is set up for success now and wont need to get his behaviour modified later.

I will keep doing what I am until it makes a difference. My fiance had to run from him yesterday as he was biting her quite hard. Had to give him a time out in the ex pen..this morning he tried to nibble my fingers but as soon as I pulled back he would stop and it seemed to work - so who knows how long this will take..

Thank you all for help!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

What you want is called Bite Inhibition. The experts say that you can NOT teach a dog to STOP biting all the time, but that you can train him to moderate how hard he bites (or even if he 'bites' with his lips). What mama23dogs posted is a short form of the Bite Inhibition training method. You can say "No" or any other word or cue. And you say it loudly, to get the pup's attention and to Startle the pup rather than Scare the pup ... as cookieface wrote. Subtle difference. 

Post #4 and the links that cookieface posted for a detailed understanding of the method with included steps and explanations. It'll take a minimum of 3 days for the pup to understand that your "no" or "yelp" or "Ouch" means stop biting so hard, as opposed to "you hurt me, but I'm OK, Let's play some more!" Then, it'll take a couple of weeks for you (and everyone else) to understand how to react so that the pup stops drawing blood.

I used this method while also teaching my 65lb pup to play-wrestle on cue, and to play a rough (but safe) game of tug on cue. When you learn how to use it, it is a very powerful method of communication. Also, despite what you may read online, you'll have to keep up Bite Inhibition training periodically. I had to give my 12yo dog a 2 sec. reminder, recently.

If you can't get the process to work, you may want an outsider to help.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

It took us several months to get good bite inhibition with Annabel, and Newfoundlands are not at all land-sharks. We used the yelping method, which worked really well for us. If she got too excited and the yelping wasn't working, we would stop playing, then leave the room for a bit if she continued. The advise you're getting here is great (though I wouldn't recommend scaring your pup, just startling). Our pup's almost 2 years old now and we'll still yelp at her occasionally if she gets too excited. But that's really rare. We just like to remind her sometimes to use her "inside mouth" when we're playing.


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## osva (Dec 22, 2014)

Thank you both for the reply!

Yelping or shouting ouch! or ow! does not seem to startle him at all, he has not reacted to any loud noises since the day i got him. No clapping or even rolled up newspaper does not seem to matter.

I am sticking to the walking away if he goes a little too crazy, but he chaces me when I walk biting (he really sees it as a game) and if i just ignore and stand there in pain he will stop biting me and run off and bite another family member.

At this time I grab him and take him to his ex pen. However, how long do you keep him there? At first his reaction is "what? what did just happen? why am i here?" then he goes and picks his toy or just looks at us. Would you let him out in 1-2minutes? If I keep him in there for 3-5mins he will start crying cos he wants out and then it takes 5mins for him to calm down and stop crying so I can let him out - then he comes out. But that becomes a 10-15minute time out which I think may be too long? Would you guys say just do 2-3mins, he calms down and let him out, then if he bites again - back in the ex pen?

Thanks!


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

A minute or two is fine. It doesn't take long at all for the dog to get the picture. Here are some time-out tips I found helpful:

https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/using-time-outs-effectively


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