# Cesar Millan Debate



## JayandPhoebe (Dec 5, 2011)

I always thought his philosophies were supposed to be amazing, but it seems like there's a large handful of experienced dog people on this forum who disagree.

I'm new to dog ownership myself, so I'm just curious. And looking to gain as much knowledge as I can.

Why is he so bad? 

And also, why is he so good?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

One thing that would help is defining his philosophies. I've heard some things attributed to him that he never said/did. And he seems to have changed his philosophies from his earlier episodes, he seems to be a bit more mindful and less aggressive now. But he's a TV personality. . .the disclaimer at the beginning of the show says not to try anything you see without consulting a professional. People should follow that.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I thought Ceasar-Milan was a kind of salad dressing.


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## JayandPhoebe (Dec 5, 2011)

I guess I'm looking for a debate about his theories on dominance, corrections, and pack mentality.

From what I gather, he preaches calm assertive energy. Always praise calm submissive energy. Assert yourself as the pack leader, and reinforce (gently but firmly) that you are in charge. Exercise, discipline, and then affection are the dogs basic needs.

He believes corrections are sometimes needed in order to communicate to a dog what kind of behaviours you don't agree with. Then to redirect and show them what to do instead. The intensity of the correction should match the intensity of the infraction.

And then on the other end of the fence, there seems to be alot of people who think the whole pack leader thing, and being the alpha is garbage old school thinking. Dogs respond to positive reinforcement only and corrections should rarely be used if at all. Dogs need love and affection, exercise, and then discipline in gentle ways if at all. We should not try to act like dogs, because we're people and we're not good at it. Dogs know this.

Both philosophies seem to have approaches that make sense. I'm new to dog ownership, so I'm just looking for a healthy debate, and I'm trying to learn as much as I can. I want to be a good owner for Phoebe and I want her to be happy!

Thanks!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There's nothing wrong with "calm assertive energy" or "exercise, discipline, affection". But alpha rolling and kicking dogs in the stomach can be very damaging. There are many effective training methods, but doing something that can mess your dog up is generally a bad idea, and unnecessary.

Nobody is saying that positive reinforcement is the only thing dogs respond to. But why hurt your dog if there are less violent but equally effective methods?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh not this again. Just search Cesar Milan on here. All your questions will be answered.


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## JESSJAME5 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'm a big fan of Zak George... He's voiced his own thoughts on Cesar too. He's got all his videos up on youtube, they're a good watch.

I agree with Willowy.... I don't disagree with Cesar that his methods may work - but why do it the crueler way when you can do it so easily in a calm, much more humane way? Your dog will appreciate it more too... Dog training should never have to resort to prong or electric collars, stomach kicking, or alpha rolling.. Just not right.


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## oldhounddog (May 31, 2010)

JayandPhoebe said:


> I'm new to dog ownership myself, so I'm just curious. And looking to gain as much knowledge as I can.


JayandPhoebe ,

I don't know enough about CM to make an informed comment , So... I will tell you what I do know. You are at a place where you can learn more and have a real life connection with folks that share your interests. Welcome to DF......................

Best , oldhounddog


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

There's nothing wrong with being a 'leader' to your dog, letting a dog know you're in control of the situation is a good thing, being calm and assertive is a MUST with dogs as it shows the YOU are confident and the dog reacts to that energy. However you need to be a benevolent leader and controlling resources, re-enforcing desireable behavior and counter conditioning is a better way to achieve that goal than alpha rolling, hand biting and flooding (forcing a fearful being into the situation it fears).


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

JESSJAME5 said:


> I'm a big fan of Zak George... He's voiced his own thoughts on Cesar too.


... that he has, my friend. Oh, THAT he has.

Personally, I'd love to see a mud-wrestling match between those two titans --- ZG vs CM --- kinda like a Danny Bonaduce-style "title" bout.

T'would be time well wasted.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

learn what you can and leave the rest.


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

I have watched a lot of Cesar Milan in the past year... I've learned some great things from him and things that weren't so great that people on the board said... this is a better method. So like everything, in moderation... good with the bad.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

JayandPhoebe said:


> He believes corrections are sometimes needed in order to communicate to a dog what kind of behaviours you don't agree with. Then to redirect and show them what to do instead. The intensity of the correction should match the intensity of the infraction.


There are many types of "corrections" for behavior, including redirecting the dog to something else, but I won't belabor what is meant by "correction". The laws of learning do no indicate what "intensity" a correction should be...only that it reduces the behavior in the future. The intensity then is dependent on the dog in question, the relationship you have with that dog, and where you are on the humane scale. These points are what is argued in the debate, not whether something works or not for the purpose of entertainment. 



> And then on the other end of the fence, there seems to be alot of people who think the whole pack leader thing, and being the alpha is garbage old school thinking. Dogs respond to positive reinforcement only and corrections should rarely be used if at all. Dogs need love and affection, exercise, and then discipline in gentle ways if at all. We should not try to act like dogs, because we're people and we're not good at it. Dogs know this.


Speaking for *those* people, you've misrepresented them. +R training does not mean permissive. The truth is, you can only get behavior from reinforcement. So +R trainers start with getting behaviors they want. Strangely enough, if you have the behaviors you want, punishing the dog, as CM may, becomes unnecessary. It can be a big difference in thought.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

JayandPhoebe said:


> I guess I'm looking for a debate about his theories on dominance, corrections, and pack mentality. *Dominance: plays no part in 99% of the behavior and training issues most people experience. Yes, there is often a dog in a group of dogs that will control who has access to resources. No, he/she does not do this by force, biting, rolling, or any other physical means. No, people and dogs do NOT have an integrated dominance hierarchy. You are not "dominant" over your dog, and your dog is not "dominant over you.
> 
> Corrections: IMO physical corrections are never necessary, especially in behavior work. Vocal corrections may provide useful information to a dog but I do not know how to use them properly so I do not train with corrections.
> 
> ...


My own two cents are in bold. Take it for what it is: exhausted ramblings from a long-term dog lover who has only recently delved into the world of current professional dog training and behavior theories. I've had success in teaching dogs the old school (collar corrections, be the boss, control the dog so the dog doesn't control you) way, however I have had greater successes recently thanks to less hands-on and more brain-on training methods and an aggressive dog that needed some guidance.


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## LoveCWCs (Oct 21, 2011)

Cesar Milan is a savant who can read body language like most people can read the newspaper. However, he's not perfect and he doesn't always handle situations the way that I would like to see them handled. 

I don't believe that dogs need to be forced to the ground and forced to submit. I do think that the best dog trainers are themselves calm and assertive and not afraid of their pupils. 

I think that most people misinterpret what they see Cesar doing on TV. People have to understand that it's TV for Dog's sake and it's the canine version of a reality TV show. Things are going to be blown out of proportion and made to look worse then they really are. 

My fear is that some jerk with a rottie is going to try to force his dog to the ground to imitate Cesar and the dog is going to be like, "Oh, I dont' think so," and then the end result will be a man in the hospital and a dog in a grave.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

I haven't watched his show that often so maybe I'm missing something. But from what I've seen I've only ever seen him alpha roll a dog once and it was dealing with a very aggressive dog. I don't think I've ever seen him _advise _people to alpha roll a dog. But maybe I've missed something because I have only seen his show a few times. 

From what I have seen most of the time it's a dog who is under-exercised and under-stimulated and all he does is teach the person how to walk the dog on a leash. Or a dog with some odd neurotic behavior like attacking the vacuum cleaner...

Overall his message seemed fine...your dog needs confidence in you, it needs exercise and stimulation, and boundaries/limitations need to be made clear in a way the dog understands.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

HerdersForMe said:


> I don't think I've ever seen him _advise _people to alpha roll a dog.


Maybe he hasn't (I don't watch his show, I've only caught a couple episodes). But the problem is _he's on TV._ He doesn't have to advise anyone to do anything. Uneducated viewers are watching him, see what appears to be a dog that is successfully corrected using his techniques (the success is questionable, because he's on TV, and the show is edited) and may try to use those techniques on their dog. He didn't advise them to do it, in fact, I think there is a disclaimer on the show saying not to do that, but lots of people are going to do it anyway.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

If you need to get control of an out-of-control dog, laying it on its side as gently as possible, and holding it until it calms down, is not the worst thing you could do. I've never seen Cesar do it in anger or frustration, or just to "show the dog who's boss." Most of the time he does it, the dog is headed for a lethal injection anyway.

Dogs will follow a leader, and a dog who considers you his leader will try to cooperate with you most of the time. I learned this from a big yella hound way before I ever heard of Cesar Milan. Call it "alpha" or "pack leader" or whatever you like, the man really is dialed in to what dogs are thinking.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

perhaps they should do a "road to the horse" thing wih digs btw the three biggest "names" in dog training today & see for one & all who is tops. (kidding of course) for arguments sake, dogs know we aren't dogs, true just like a person from [insert country here] knows you aren't native .... BUT they WILL understand of you are fluent in their language ..... So ..... Why can't it be the same with dogs ?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Geez, it's television entertainment. We could just as well be debating Homer Simpson's work at the Springfield Nuclear Plant.


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## zdonBGSU (May 7, 2011)

I think its more important to know WHAT is right rather than WHO is right. There are trainers that I agree more with and those that I agree less with. They also deal with different situations, CM's isn't how to teach dogs to catch a frisbee, and Zak George isn't dealing with dog aggressive pitbulls. I think taking in different perspectives and form your own theories on WHAT is right rather than WHO is right is more important. Also be critical with whats out there because like anything else, there is not a strong consensus on dog training. 

But if you want something concrete, there is definitely pretty strong scientific evidence and pretty wide acceptance that supports positive reinforcement training which should apply to most normal dog-raising situations.


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

Teen Mom is also on TV but 16 year olds still shouldn't be getting knocked up... and they are.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LoveCWCs said:


> Cesar Milan is a savant who can read body language like most people can read the newspaper.


Wait what? Dog body language? Because I'm not savant, but I'd say reading body language is the biggest problem he has.


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## DELee36 (Nov 27, 2011)

Cesar Milan is fine. Like any method, it is really more reliant on the people than the dog. 
Dogs will earn regardless of the method chosen...dogs do not typically fail training, people fail at training their dogs. training is about consistency and choosing a method that is compatible to the dog AND the person. 
For instance we just had a lady who said her Coonhound was totally untrainable. Well she, on the advice of others and because she felt correction training was "cruel", chose a treat reward training. Well that works great with some dogs...if the dogs personality is suited to it...this dogs WAS NOT suited to that style of training. Coming right out of a hunting kennel, he needed to start training with something more familiar. I took the dog and had him walking on a loose leash and responding to commands in less than 10 minutes.
I am no friggin miracle worker...nor am i necessarily good at training...I just chose what the dog understood. After the dog has some basics under its belt then the treat training will be of benefit.
Had another guy who was told all the treat reward training was bunk and took his dog through correction training. Well he was ENTIRELY uncomfortable performing the training. Because he was uncomfortable performing it he did not follow through or perform with the necessary consistency ( nor was the dog believing any of it)...so the dog learned very little. We encouraged him to try a system more suited to what he wanted and surprising the dog is a whiz! ( of course he now is one of those "reward is the ONLY training that works folks...which is just not true...but anyways)

so anyway...my issue is not with Cesar Milan. His methods work on the dog he trains with it. I believe some of what he says...other stuff just aint for me. I have a problem with people thinking that his method ( or any method) is the only method and is some kind of miracle. Cesar Milan fails at training...they just do not show you that on TV.
Training is about choosing what works for the owner AND the dog...not about one method being the best.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LoveCWCs said:


> Cesar Milan is a savant who can read body language like most people can read the newspaper.


Actually he often MIS interprets dog body language, you want to see a person who PROPERLY reads body language go to Turid Ruugas site and watch her interpretations ot better yet, get her book/video combo "On Talking Terms with dogs: Calming signals" 

http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> Actually he often MIS interprets dog body language, you want to see a person who PROPERLY reads body language go to Turid Ruugas site and watch her interpretations ot better yet, get her book/video combo "On Talking Terms with dogs: Calming signals"
> 
> http://www.canis.no/rugaas/onearticle.php?artid=1


This book/combo was instrumental on saving my dog's life. On our first lesson I had to buy that book/dvd and I have studied it like it was a bible. Because of it, I can tell when my dog doesn't like the way someone or something's approaching or handling him, and I can control the situation before he feels he has to control it himself. 

The "behaviorist" I used before I found my current trainer was actually trained by Cesar's right hand man simply marked my dog as "dominant", forced him into situations he was uncomfortable with, and then punished/manhandled the heck out of him when he would react so he learned he couldn't get away with that behavior. He became MORE aggressive. The "behaviorist" said it always gets worse before it gets better, so we have to up our "corrections." I decided I would rather have a dog that couldn't be around people or other dogs than to subject my dog to that.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yep Lind, alot of CM success comes because the dogs shut down, such dogs end up exploding and doing worse damage than they would have in the first place.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

My big problem with CM is that SO many people take his theories and methods as the bottom line for all that is true about dogs. I also hate it when trainers compare themselves to him as a buzz word to try to lure clients. 

He has done some good stuff, someone here posted his bit about desensitizing the dog to the vacuum cleaner, it was all positive reinforcement, and a fantastic approach. I would recommend that bit to anybody, other stuff....not so much. 

I personally think the "dominance" thing is bunk. I've got a 9 month old dog, she can be a brat, she tests her limits with us, seeing what she can get away with. Like any other mammal, go for the path of least resistance. Why "sit" if you can get the treat without sitting. I'll let her out the door first because its EASIER, she has to sit first, and sit when I close the door. Doesn't mean she is dominant. 

New to owning a dog, interested in the training and stuff, that was me 7 months ago (and now too!). I personally think informing yourself is the best thing you can do, don't just go with the first approach you read or see. Look at the different training styles and trainers, see what works for you and your dog and your ideology. I owe all of Caeda's basic training to Kikopup Youtube videos (aka Emily Yarhlam), especially for the more basic commands, fantastic stuff! I personally think Mike Ellis videos are fantastic especially for a high energy dog (though not a fan of other Leerburg stuff), I like his general philosophies (including one vid I saw where he specifically explains why not to alpha roll). There's lots of stuff out there, way more than just CM that involve more specific information than "exuding energies".


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Here's what I don't like about CM:

- he's had no training on training. I mean, he never received any training. His ideas are just that, ideas. He has admitted that what he learned about dogs he learned by watching them as he was growing up on his grandfather's ranch/farm in Mexico. Some of his ideas may be ok, but without any actual training, it kind of seems to me it's like "I'm not a trainer, I just play one on TV."

- his early episodes had a more violent and aggressive approach. I had seen him provoke dogs so he could bring their bad behavior out, and then he'd roll or pin them.

- he may not actually recommend pinning, rolling, etc, but he basically is an in-home trainer for some of these dogs and owners for a few days or whatever, and if you invited a trainer into your home, you'd probably watch what they did, and try to install that same training after the trainer left. So, he may not actually recommend it, but he's leading through example.

Some things I've seen are good. But, I think there's a lot more negative than positive. And, for the general public, watching this show, not knowing any better, they may believe every thing he says and does.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> Yep Lind, alot of CM success comes because the dogs shut down, such dogs end up exploding and doing worse damage than they would have in the first place.


I can't imagine why that's preferable to addressing the root cause of the problem and retraining the dog not to act in such a way. Reactability/aggression is just a behavior and it is absolutely possible to change behavior through training. 

The good news is my story has a happy ending. Brody is a CGC, is comfortable around all people and dogs, and is now starting his rally career! He'll never be a therapy dog, but I'm extremely happy with where he is.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Sorry I didn't read all two pages, but I did want to say I agree with Willowy on his methods. I don't like how he'll shove a dog, kick them, or do whatever to put them into submission. That's why I don't care for the man. The only thing I agree with is that people have to be the alpha over your dog. 

I like Victoria Stillwell's methods much better. Less aggressive and still you get the results without your dog fearing you.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

What exactly does being "alpha" over your dog entail?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Lindbert said:


> What exactly does being "alpha" over your dog entail?


My understanding is that, when you are the alpha, you get to use the toothbrush before your dog does.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

They refuse to use the toothbrush after me. I guess they don't like the minty flavor, and all of the poultry flavored toothpaste in the world won't cover that up. Does that make me a bad alpha?

I guess I could use the poultry flavor, but I shouldn't adjust my lifestyle for them. I'm the alpha, damn it! Maybe they'll like cinnamon better?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

The alpha toothbrush thing is only a big deal with a brand new toothbrush. After that, it doesn't really matter.

Do they make cowpie-flavored toothpaste?


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

My guys would prefer rabbit pebbles or kittie crunchies, but to each their own. It's not about what they want anyway!


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

The results speak for themselves. that being said some dogs he deals with don't improve much because it's more training than balancing...there needs to be ahappy medium


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Lindbert--It means you are the leader. That your dog isn't above you and telling you what to do, that your dog will listen to you instead. That's it.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> The results speak for themselves.


Do you suppose that, in the interest of full disclosure, they broadcast the failures?


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## DeadIrishD (Aug 8, 2009)

I'm very happy that this was posted, while the information on this could be found with doing a quick search through the search function, I admittedly hadn't thought about this at all.

I guess it's time for me to actually read up on other training methods, and see what one works best for Daisy and I, rather then "This man, looks like a genius!" (How, I wish this was sarcasm)

I'm sorry I didn't really have much to add to this, but I had wanted to at least say Thank-You to the OP for making this thread


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

RonE said:


> Do you suppose that, in the interest of full disclosure, they broadcast the failures?


I believe I also said


Stationgirl said:


> that being said some dogs he deals with don't improve much


He works well with aggressive dogs and dogs with fear issues, just by the good ol' common sense approach.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

stationgirl said:


> I believe I also said
> 
> He works well with aggressive dogs and dogs with fear issues, just by the good ol' common sense approach.


 
Actually he's been sued by several former clients because their dogs became more fearful/aggressive or were injured in his care. There was a child of one of his clients that was SEVERELY bitten doing an alpha roll on the dog (as Milan instructed). Milans techniques of flooding go counter to EVERY instinct I have when working with dogs (which I've been doing as long as CM) and shutting a dog down is only temporary because the behavior WILL return, and often it will be worse when it does.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

I was unaware of this


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Most people are, I have a friend who works for the AC in Milans county, there are several reports of dogs he's worked with that have gone 'over the edge' after his 'training'. The only case that was publicized was the Golden belonging to a former network exec that got hung when fastened to a treadmill at Milans facility and was nearly killed (trachea crushed). The exec sued Milan and was released for his trouble. Most of Milans failures are covered up or paid off by the network people his show is on.


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

That's scary


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yep, and yet the Mythbusters can have ONE accident where NO ONE gets hurt and it's a huge deal!


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

What percentage of dogs do you think he actually helps? I've used some of his methods on my dogs and they work well, like the pack walk etc...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The 'pack walk' can be ok, it depends on the dog, it tends to be a form of flooding. I personally prefer Arcing and parallel walking for introducing dogs as it's a more proven approach that uses the natural body language and calming signals of dogs. ALL introductions should be on NUETRAL ground where the dog doesn't feel it has to defend its 'territory'.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> shutting a dog down is only temporary because the behavior WILL return, and often it will be worse when it does.


This I can attest to from first hand experience. I had a reactive dog, I went to a CM schooled "behaviorist" where he was punished when he showed reactive behavior via leash corrections, alpha rolls, jabs to "snap him out of it," you name it. I started with a dog that growled and lunged at people and would only snap if you wouldn't "knock it off" to a dog that would use teeth first, ask questions later. 

The only reason I went with this person was because I was at a dog park with my non-reactive dogs one day and there was a dog fight and someone stepped in and "disciplined" the dogs and both dogs seemed much "better" behaved after that. He gave me a ton of "advice" and the name of the "behaviorist" who worked with his dogs. This was the mistake that nearly killed my dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Lind, it amazes me that people refuse to underStand that if you punish the WARNING the warning goes away and the dog goes straight to BITE!


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

And, these are probably the same people who alpha roll and "dominate" their dogs; they punish the warnings (growls, body language) because they don't want their dogs to dominate them. For instance, " I'm not gonna let my dog growl at me" or what have you.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Don't you know, your dog isn't supposed to warn you! He's supposed to be submissive to you at all times and not voice the opinion that they don't like the situation you put them in. When I tell people that, I often hear "the only warning my dog should be allowed to know is the warning that my boot is about to hit his ass." Yes, this was a real response when I told someone that hitting their geriatric dog for growling at another dog at a dog park was a bad idea.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

doxiemommy said:


> And, these are probably the same people who alpha roll and "dominate" their dogs; they punish the warnings (growls, body language) because they don't want their dogs to dominate them. For instance, " I'm not gonna let my dog growl at me" or what have you.


Ah yes, when my dog starts to stiffen up that means he's trying to be "dominant." Also, now that Brody has become quite the leaner when he's being pet, a lot of these dominance theory know-it-alls tell me he's trying to be "dominant" over people by trying to push them out of the space they're occupying. I really wish I thought Brody was smart enough for all the world-domination he's apparently plotting.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Interesting thread. Refrained from posting thus far because I didn't think I could be adding anything other than 'I'm not a fan'. If it were even possible, I dislike his methods even more now. I only knew about that dog that got hung on the treadmill, but people I told just passed it off as 'rumor' and all that. Can you believe that at this point in time, I've only met ONE person in real life that WASN'T a fan of Millan? Thank goodness that person also turned out to be a dog behaviorist. Yay


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> Yep, and yet the Mythbusters can have ONE accident where NO ONE gets hurt and it's a huge deal!


So THAT'S where that show went!!! I was wondering what happened?

Intresting, I was always taught (been doing dogs for 20 yrs) that making a dog suppress the behavior teaches the dog "self control" & I have heard Millan say that also. 

I thought the dog that was injured was a lab? The story said it was a lab .... Of course that also could have changed.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

I never saw CM train any dog, in the sense of teaching commands. His show is about going into a home where the dog is out of control, the people are unhappy and in many cases, the dog is nervous or anxious or headed back to a shelter, and quickly showing the owners how to work with their pets so everybody ends up happy. Most of us here want more out of our relationships with our dogs than just peaceful co-existence.

That's how I see it, anyway.

I can tell you this, if you have a big, high-energy puppy of 7 months old, don't waste your time with the "shhht." On the other hand, "no touch - no talk - no eye contact" works pretty good.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Intresting, I was always taught (been doing dogs for 20 yrs) that making a dog suppress the behavior teaches the dog "self control" & I have heard Millan say that also.


I would agree that this is interesting. I think this is true, actually -- but I don't think it negates anything that's been said in this thread about punishing warning signals = no warning signals = dog starts "snapping" and biting "with no warning". Luckily, you can get self-control with positive reinforcement-esque training, too. Think about it -- any situation where a dog makes the choice not to do something that he previously wanted to do because he knows the consequences won't be favorable to him or, if he chooses a "better" behavior, the consequences will be MORE favorable to him, is an example of exhibiting better self-control, of inhibiting "gut reactions".


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> Intresting, I was always taught (been doing dogs for 20 yrs) that making a dog suppress the behavior teaches the dog "self control" & I have heard Millan say that also.


This is certainly true in operant conditioning, however, most of the behavior highlighted in CM's show would not follow the laws of OC. And this is exactly why many people disagree with CM's approach.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> ALL introductions should be on NEUTRAL ground where the dog doesn't feel it has to defend its 'territory'.


This is so basic that normally I would say it's kindergarten stuff, it's been many years since our boy went to school so I'm not sure but I think it would be what they now call preschool. Isn't that before kindergarten. If so it's preschool.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Cesar knows a lot about dogs that I feel has helped me understand certain behaviors. He also bases a lot of his theories on wolf pack behavior, which is wildly inaccurate. Not only have dogs evolved along a different path for approx 14,000 years, but the studies done on wolf behavior were performed on wolves grabbed more or less randomly and made to live together in an enclosed environment which they could not leave. To illustrate with a human analogy, try defining average family behavior, but instead of studying actual families in their homes, grab some random people off the street and force them to live together in a house none of them are familiar with. Trust me, you won't get accurate results. 

Personally, I don't think Cesar is all bad, but I do think that many things he teaches are potentially dangerous. Too many people take just a smidge of his 'pack leader' advice and take to alpha-rolling or other aggressive behaviors when dealing with their dogs. This is never a good idea. I think that possibly the best thing I learned from Cesar Milan is the need for discipline before love. That isn't nearly as harsh as it seems. Even in human families, people that lavish the love on their children but are very lax on discipline often end up with little monsters. Every family structure needs a set of rules and boundaries that everyone can be happy with (or at least live with). 'Discipline' does not mean to yell at or hit your dog, but rather to implement a set of rules for them and sticking to it every time. The discipline is as much for the human as it is for the dog. It's difficult when you're in a good mood not to hug and pet your dog that jumps at you, but this same behavior is undesirable most of the time. Dogs are even more literal than people, so if you reinforce something even 1 out of 20 times, that behavior will persist, because the dog knows that _sometimes_ this behavior gets a good result. 

I also strongly believe in Cesar's philosophy of making certain your dog gets enough exercise. This will be largely breed-dependent, but also different on a case by case basis. I have Aussies, and one of them is mellow and lazy. The others need to run - a lot. Most of the time when someone posts to this forum that their dog is driving them nuts, the most common causes I've found are:

1. Not enough exercise.
2. Dog lives outside (really?).
3. Unstable home environment.

Basically nearly all of them come down to not enough exercise, not enough interaction with their humans, fear of their environment. This last one is generally when a baby is born or a new boyfriend/girlfriend come on board, and aren't very fond of the dog. My advice would be to take whatever you learn from Cesar and other sources, and put it together in a way that makes sense for you.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

wil.wish said:


> Too many people take just a smidge of his 'pack leader' advice and take to alpha-rolling or other aggressive behaviors when dealing with their dogs. This is never a good idea.


This is why I really dislike hearing people talk about alpha and pack leader stuff. Many average dog owners hear the alpha/pack leader stuff and think, "oh, ok, that makes sense" and they go with it, and think they know what they're doing. If they hear one well meaning person give advice, something like, "you have to show your dog who's boss", they suddenly become alpha rollers, pinners, the "don't let the dog walk through the door first" type of owner, and they think they're doing what is best for their dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have never had a dog of mine "drive me nuts" not to the point of getting rid of them anyway.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Intresting, I was always taught (been doing dogs for 20 yrs) that making a dog suppress the behavior teaches the dog "self control" & I have heard Millan say that also.
> .


There is a huge difference between teaching a dog that other options are scarier than the offered behavior (human suppressing the dog's behavior), and the kind of letting the dog suppress the behavior that builds self control (like a solid "leave-it" which was taught without intimidiation. I've only seen CM use the kind of suppression which is based on intimidation. The effect is not the same.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

No the way I do it is "your not getting what you want (whatever that is)" til I get [insert bahavior here]. Dogs will throw their "tantrums" or extension bursts or whatever but nine times out of ten, it works .... Takes some patience tho sometimes, which is why most ppl like & try to imitate DW, bc no one wants to work for anything anymore


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> No the way I do it is "your not getting what you want (whatever that is)" til I get [insert bahavior here]. Dogs will throw their "tantrums" or extension bursts or whatever but nine times out of ten, it works .... Takes some patience tho sometimes, which is why most ppl like & try to imitate DW, bc no one wants to work for anything anymore


If you've been setting the dog up for success from the beginning, there are unlikely to be tantrums or extinction bursts.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

doxiemommy said:


> This is why I really dislike hearing people talk about alpha and pack leader stuff. Many average dog owners hear the alpha/pack leader stuff and think, "oh, ok, that makes sense" and they go with it, and think they know what they're doing. If they hear one well meaning person give advice, something like, "you have to show your dog who's boss", they suddenly become alpha rollers, pinners, the "don't let the dog walk through the door first" type of owner, and they think they're doing what is best for their dog.


This hits close to home because CM was my first introduction to dog behavior and dog training. Before I watched his show, I thought the extent of dog training was "come, sit, down, stay, rollover" etc. I never knew that people actually had the power to change the way a dog feels about something, and to get rid of aggression, excitement, and fear, through actions. I thought if your dog was afraid to go to the vet, that was just part of the dog's personality -- and there was nothing you could do about it. Then I watched an episode of the Dog Whisperer and thought, "Oh, I can do that!" And then I started using his "techniques" with the dogs I worked at the shelter with and was 100% sure that I knew what I was about. I would always walk through doors before them, and "shhht" them, and use "hand bites" on them. 

Then I found a kikopup youtube video, I think, and went "oh, you mean there's actually a science about this stuff?" and embarked on a long journey of learning about operant/classical conditioning and all the other factors that surround changing behavior, like rate of reinforcement/timing/markers/etcetcetcetc. I read all sorts of books and watched tons of videos by different people until I pieced together a method that works for me (although I still change my method as I gain new knowledge). Now I look back on what I did with those dogs and realize how completely clueless about dog behavior I was. It was foolish, but I was convinced I was doing the right thing because I'd seen it work on TV so many times.

I consider myself relatively smart, I guess, so it scares me to think how many people could be walking away thinking they know how to apply his techniques to their own dogs now. I see evidence of this type of thinking on this forum CONSTANTLY ("sometimes I roll the dog over on his side and hold him there until he calms down" etc). It's worrying. 



dogdragoness said:


> No the way I do it is "your not getting what you want (whatever that is)" til I get [insert bahavior here]. Dogs will throw their "tantrums" or extension bursts or whatever but nine times out of ten, it works .... Takes some patience tho sometimes, which is why most ppl like & try to imitate DW, bc no one wants to work for anything anymore


Extinction burst


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## stationgirl (Nov 18, 2011)

He thinks that all aggression can be gotten rid of completely and it's just froma lack of dominance from the human, I've never agreed with that. Genetics has proven that in many cases and cannot be trained out.


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## The Feather Duster (Apr 14, 2010)

Well, I'm not keen on caesar salad and I'm even less keen on Mr. Millan. Alpha-schmalpha. Dog pinning? I think not.

The one and only time I saw a dog owning neighbor alpha rolling his dog when his dog didn't return immediately on command, I was a bit sickened and nearly said something. I bit my tongue. His dog, his way. But, I didn't like what I saw.

I have a bit of an "ouch" feeling to some of the comments I have read on this thread. Does it really have to be a human vs dog thing? I've said it before and I will say it again. Dogs = love (well mine, anyway). Some dogs can be difficult to manage, due perhaps to former abuse, neglect, long time homelessness or under-resourced shelters where they've been caged up for far too long. But, if you are committed to your dog, then you work with your dog. In the most positive way you can.

You feed it the best food you can afford. You get it outside as often as you are able. You give it all the love that is within you and you speak gently and lovingly to it. Your dog will, I promise you (as so many on this forum will attest to), respond positively.

There is no reason to roll, pin, kick or shove a dog. Absolutely none.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

doxiemommy said:


> This is why I really dislike hearing people talk about alpha and pack leader stuff. Many average dog owners hear the alpha/pack leader stuff and think, "oh, ok, that makes sense" and they go with it, and think they know what they're doing. If they hear one well meaning person give advice, something like, "you have to show your dog who's boss", they suddenly become alpha rollers, pinners, the "don't let the dog walk through the door first" type of owner, and they think they're doing what is best for their dog.


Exactly. The only time I won't let my dogs through a door first is if they're over-excited. If I just let them burst out, they do so with wild barking and general freaking out. If I make them calm down first, they're totally fine. I don't think that going through a door first is an indication of 'pack leader'. Even if you go that route, you had to open the door, providing access to a resource, so you'd still be in the driver's seat. 

The only alpha roll I'll ever do on my dogs involves vicious belly-rubbing.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

For the first time IRL I saw someone alpha rolling their dog today. I almost did a facepalm. Oh wait, I think I actually did. For all the wrong reasons too; the dog jumped because it got scared of something and the owner thought her dog was being dominant... :doh:


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

That's why get so sad when ppl "kill their dogs with love" ESP by loving them too much to train them how to behave, but for some reason ppl think that dogs should train themselves.

& yes sometimes I experience extension burst as well tho since I bothered to train my dogs they are mild & mostly happen when I teach a new behavior & my dogs throw all their previously known behaviors at me lol.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> So THAT'S where that show went!!! I was wondering what happened?
> 
> Intresting, I was always taught (been doing dogs for 20 yrs) that making a dog suppress the behavior teaches the dog "self control" & I have heard Millan say that also.
> 
> I thought the dog that was injured was a lab? The story said it was a lab .... Of course that also could have changed.


They haven't 'gone' anywhere, the accident occured about three days ago during filming. They were doing a velocity test at the range facility where they regularly blow stuff up and a cannon ball bounced off one of the hills and went into a neighborhood http://screenrant.com/mythbusters-cannonball-accident-aco-142559/


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

stationgirl said:


> He thinks that all aggression can be gotten rid of completely and it's just froma lack of dominance from the human, I've never agreed with that. Genetics has proven that in many cases and cannot be trained out.


 
Genetics, illness (many so called 'aggressive' dogs have undiscovered health conditions), lack of socailization. There are MANY causes for aggression. The fact is, most so called aggression is fear based, a dog feeling it MUST defend itself from someone or something.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> They haven't 'gone' anywhere, the accident occured about three days ago during filming. They were doing a velocity test at the range facility where they regularly blow stuff up and a cannon ball bounced off one of the hills and went into a neighborhood http://screenrant.com/mythbusters-cannonball-accident-aco-142559/



Intresting, but i do remember the show going away for a while, but I didn't know that's what happened.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> Intresting, but i do remember the show going away for a while, but I didn't know that's what happened.


The cannonball thing JUST happened (Monday? I think. ETA: oops, it was Tuesday), so if you remember the show going away in the past that's not the cause. Maybe you just caught the off-season or they put it on at a different time than you were used to.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> That's why get so sad when ppl "kill their dogs with love" ESP by loving them too much to train them how to behave


In my experience, more dogs are killed by harsh training methods used ineffectively than by lack of training. Those who "love their dogs too much to train them how to behave" are usually willing to put up with the naughtiness. Those who use harsh methods are far more impatient.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> & yes sometimes I experience extension burst as well


Extinction burst


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> In my experience, more dogs are killed by harsh training methods used ineffectively than by lack of training. Those who "love their dogs too much to train them how to behave" are usually willing to put up with the naughtiness. Those who use harsh methods are far more impatient.


In 50 years of dog work I personally know of one dog that died because of a couple boots to the rib cage. This was in field trial competition done by a rank amateur after watching a couple Pros work their dogs and then He decided to add to it. I know you live in a dog meanness bubble in South Dakota and I also know that yes some dogs do get killed by harsh methods and others by lack of training crossing highways etc. I got to say that I'm very glad I have not experienced all the killing and harshness that you have seen and lived through and I spent 14 yrs in bird dog work which can be harsh/tough.

I have read other replies where some questioned your statistics, I never did, I just did a lot of thinking about them.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

wil.wish said:


> Exactly. The only time I won't let my dogs through a door first is if they're over-excited. If I just let them burst out, they do so with wild barking and general freaking out. If I make them calm down first, they're totally fine. I don't think that going through a door first is an indication of 'pack leader'. Even if you go that route, you had to open the door, providing access to a resource, so you'd still be in the driver's seat.
> 
> The only alpha roll I'll ever do on my dogs involves vicious belly-rubbing.


I am with you on the vicious belly-rubbing, too!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> In 50 years of dog work I personally know of one dog that died because of a couple boots to the rib cage. This was in field trial competition done by a rank amateur after watching a couple Pros work their dogs and then He decided to add to it. I know you live in a dog meanness bubble in South Dakota and I also know that yes some dogs do get killed by harsh methods and others by lack of training crossing highways etc. I got to say that I'm very glad I have not experienced all the killing and harshness that you have seen and lived through and I spent 14 yrs in bird dog work which can be harsh/tough.
> 
> I have read other replies where some questioned your statistics, I never did, I just did a lot of thinking about them.


I don't mean killed directly, any more than dogdragoness meant that dogs are literally killed by lack of training. I meant dogs who are put down because they turned mean and reactive, because they defended themselves and bit their owner, or because they got skittish and scaredy, all from harsh training. I think that's pretty common everywhere. How many dogs do you think get killed because they bit their owners in the face when the owner tried to alpha-roll them? I'm guessing it's not just a few.


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## ReneeandSlayer (Dec 8, 2011)

I will not stick around to debate much as it is beating a dead horse but I will speak as a pit bull owner and breed supporter on my main issue with him. He paints a false image of the breed, attempting to convince people that owning one is for anyone. They are a breed predisposed to dog aggression because of the history of the breed and are NOT the type of dogs that should be off leash unsupervised with other dogs. He leaves his running free in his "pack" and newbie pit bull owners will often argue until they are blue in the face that their baby would NEVER turn on another dog. Sadly this sets many pit bulls up for media attacks because uncontrolled play between ANY dogs can be dangerous let alone dogs that were initially bred for dog on dog combat.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ReneeandSlayer said:


> I will not stick around to debate much as it is beating a dead horse but I will speak as a pit bull owner and breed supporter on my main issue with him. He paints a false image of the breed, attempting to convince people that owning one is for anyone. They are a breed predisposed to dog aggression because of the history of the breed and are NOT the type of dogs that should be off leash unsupervised with other dogs. He leaves his running free in his "pack" and newbie pit bull owners will often argue until they are blue in the face that their baby would NEVER turn on another dog. Sadly this sets many pit bulls up for media attacks because uncontrolled play between ANY dogs can be dangerous let alone dogs that were initially bred for dog on dog combat.


Where the hell is my like button!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

True but he also says that what he calls "gladiator" breeds aren't for everyone on several occasions & also goes to say that ppl should know what they are getting when they take a dog into their homes.

The one thing I hate about him is that he portrays himself as supreme all knower of all breeds, I'm sorry but I think I know more about ACDs then he does. All the eps with ACDs I have seen (minus the one with the one who chased tires) he never mentions any games that excersise herding instinct like triebbal or even herding classes on live stock primarily cattle. Physical excersise Alone is not enough for ACDs or most herders need a combo of BOTH (I can play ball with Izze for an hr without much dent, but a couple of runs of agility jumps has her pretty tired).

Just saying.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> & yes sometimes I experience extension burst as well tho since I bothered to train my dogs they are mild & mostly happen when I teach a new behavior & my dogs throw all their previously known behaviors at me lol.


What, please, is an "extension burst"? The first time you said it, I thought you had just mis-typed.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

The Feather Duster said:


> Well, I'm not keen on caesar salad and I'm even less keen on Mr. Millan. Alpha-schmalpha. Dog pinning? I think not.
> 
> The one and only time I saw a dog owning neighbor alpha rolling his dog when his dog didn't return immediately on command, I was a bit sickened and nearly said something. I bit my tongue. His dog, his way. But, I didn't like what I saw.
> .


Since he and the dog were at the same place when he rolled it, my guess is the dog came when called - although slower than he wanted. So in reality, he was punishing the dog for coming. Smart (not).


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## The Feather Duster (Apr 14, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> Since he and the dog were at the same place when he rolled it, my guess is the dog came when called - although slower than he wanted. So in reality, he was punishing the dog for coming. Smart (not).


You make a good point.


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