# Co-Ownership? The good, the bad, the ugly?



## MysticRealm

So if you saw my other thread you know I am trying to get into showing, and that usually comes with co-owning with the breeder, and that is what the breeder I'm looking into would like to do, at least till the dog is neutered after showing (though breeder has asked to possibly breed him if he turns out well so I may not be able to neuter him as soon as I'm done showing him) I'm trying to ask the breeder all the questions I need to to go into it with eyes wide open, but I wanted to hear co-ownership stories from people who have done it.
What was the good?
The bad?
THe ugly?
What did you ask the breeder being agreeing to it?
What did you wish you had asked the breeder going into?
What did your co-ownership all entail in as much detail as possible would be great. 
Thanks!
I don't really need to hear from people that have never done it but could never imagine doing it, I would like first hand experiences from people who have done it.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

I co-own my BB with her Breeder. She is a good co-owner, she gave BB to me, she does not tell me what I can and can not do with her, she helped us decide on a stud (which was one of hers), she was with us through her whole show career, she shared in our enthusiasm as BB won groups, she loves this dog just as much as we do. I did know her for years before getting BB though, we are good friends. 

I co-own my two pups with her now too. She did get a pup back, but that was not apart of any agreement (which we really did not have), she just wanted her.

I know that like with BB, she will be with us every step of the way with these too pups, just like I will be with hers.


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## trainingjunkie

My only purchased pup is co-owned until spaying (still intact at 4 years) and absolutely no problems or drama at all. A non-event.

The only concern I had was when I had a health scare. I called to make sure that the co-owner would allow my husband to retain the dog if something happened to me. They assured me that he could.

If you trust the breeder, I wouldn't worry about co-ownership.


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## Margot49

Good idea to think about this before going into a co-ownership. Some people can work very well together and some not so much. You want someone that will be a good mentor to you. Are they going to help you learn the ropes? Will they teach you how to properly groom this breed? Will you both show the dog or just you? Will you assume all the expenses of showing, health, breeding? If the dog ever went out with a handler, would you split expenses? If the dog does not turn out to be show quality, woukd she replace him? Would she let you keep him? Are you paying a show puppy price or a pet puppy price? Some breeders will charge a pet price and, if the pup does turn out to be show quality, then you might owe more later. If it is a male and might eventually be used for breeding or stand at stud, what financial arrangement would be made? 
Contracts can be pretty simple and black and white and some can be quite inclusive. You need to discuss these things. You need to figure out what you want to do and expect down the road. Whatever the case, get everything in "writing". 
Co-ownerships can be great for someone starting out. Do not be afraid to ask questions.
I have co-owned a couple of show dogs that were females. One I owed a pick puppy out of the first litter, co-owner picked the stud dog. Second litter, she got second pick. There can be many variations and conditions to contracts. I have a friend that had wonderful dogs and dud very well showing and with her breedings. Twice, she tried to talk me into a co-ownership on a couple of gorgeous puppies. I was tempted but I know she is very picky and can be hard to deal with so I declined. We are still friends and that worked out better, I am sure. Lol


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## elrohwen

I am wary of them. I have seen relationships fall apart over co-owns and both sides end up resentful and disliking each other, though they are all nice people who I get along with individually. I would only consider a co-own with someone I already knew. 

I think the biggest issue is when people do not have the correct expectations of the relationship (either from the breeder side or the owner side). If the breeder expects you to be showing every weekend and you don't want to do that, is she going to get upset? If the breeder says she's going to cover all show and health testing fees, but then expects you to give up your time driving the dog around, are you going to get upset? What if you are struggling to finish the dog? Will you pay for a handler? Will the breeder cover the handling fees? 

If the dog is going to be used at stud, are you going to get any of the stud fee? Are you going to be ok either driving your dog around to the female, or having someone show up at your house with a bitch in season to breed to him? Breeding dogs is often last minute and time consuming and involves taking days off of work to drive around for health testing or to do the actual breeding. If you're not ok with that, is the breeder going to do it for you? Will you full own the dog after he is neutered?

Maybe I'm not who you wanted to hear from, since neither of my dogs are co-owned, but I am friends with a lot of people in my breed who are in co-ownerships and I've seen some work very well, and I've seen others ruin relationships and cause a lot of stress.


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## MysticRealm

Thank you everyone. Those are great questions to ask and good things to think about!
No elrohwen, I appreciated your responses. My reasoning for saying I didn't want to hear from people who didn't co-own was because I have seen a few threads (on other forums) where somebody even mentions co-owning and gets 5 people getting on their high horses responding how they would NEVER allow anyone to co-own their dogs, even though they have never even seen co-ownership in real life or had any experiences with it.

Unfortunately my breeder is not even in my province so won't be able to really help me out, but I have already talked to a couple show poodle breeder/grooms/judges who are willing to help me out. 
My dog would be a regular puppy price because I have no intentions of breeding him (planning for a male) myself. Breeder said if I had wanted to become a breeder then the price would be different, and she very rarely allowed her dogs to go to breeding homes.


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## Margot49

Is she selling you a pet puppy or a show prospect puppy? This last paragraph is a bit confusing to me unless we just do it differently. I assume the dogs have to be intact to be shown, right? Assuming you are getting a show prospect puppy, and puppies do have to be evaluated at different stages of development to try to determine if they might be a show quality dog, I wonder why she would sell an intact male to a novice if she rarely allows her dogs to go to those that want to breed. Well, unless she stayed on as co-owner and would have to approve breedings. Start reading up on Poodles and the Standard. As in the breed I showed, puppies are evaluated regularly, esp size. We have charts we go by (and "lines" can vary a bit) and puppies are measured at regular intervals. I might have a puppy on the larger side, is measuring over the chart for his age, which helps to determine he is probably going over the Standard and would be sold as a "pet" puppy on limited registration and would have to be spay or neutered. I may have a pup that is "iffy" so may decide to grow it out longer to determine if I think it is possibly a show quality pup. I may have a litter where I have 3 promising puppies and cannot keep them all but want them to be shown. This is where a co-ownership might come in to play, then the contract stipulations begin. 
You need to make sure you are getting a show prospect puppy if you really want to get into Conformation. I certainly would not sell to a Novice and give them carte Blanche when it came to breeding. 
Have you talked to other breeders or just this one? If you have any dog shows in your area, or within travel distance, buy a show catalog and it should list the names of those showing Poodles. These are the people you want to talk to. 
Poodles take a lot of maintenance and grooming. If you don't have a Conformation person near you, check with a couple of local groomers that do Poodles. Maybe for a nominal fee they would let you come in and learn from them. There is a lot of scissoring involved, brushing, shaving, etc. 
Good luck!! Take your time.


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## PatriciafromCO

I have heard the good the bad and the ugly,,, and usually the dog with possession of the dog walks away breaking what ever deal that was discussed or in contract. That is the worse is having two people in two different states or further... who governs over broken contracts of this type.... Is it only Civil Courts, is there any AKC discipline, is there any area of CO owner ships that is covered by AKC to investigate to pass out punishments like not able to register litters, ... I have known AKC to get involved in for false breeding information in submitted forms.. How good is a contract to enforce it. what specifics and alternatives should be listed if the specifics can not be met. like when you suppose to get a pick puppy from certain breeding's and those breeding's don't happen or you don't like the pups is there then a monetary value to receive instead.. that and if the person keeps refusing a pick pup is there a dead line on that so you can fufill you contract and be done with the other person.. things like that.


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## MysticRealm

Thanks guys.
I am getting a show prospect but under our agreement I would not be breeding him (which I have no real desire to do) but if she felt he was worthy she may choose to breed one of her dogs to him in the future. That is one of the reasons why he'd be under a co-ownership. This is one question I need to make sure to ask is about who covers the cost of health testing if she chooses to breed him. I'm making a list with a lot of the questions that have been listed in this thread.
Like I said, I already have show breeders/groomers/judges in my city lined up to help me out with all the know how.
If my puppy doesn't end up being show quality that's ok with me. My main goal is a good pet, but if I can show him then I'd like to do that. I have already sent the breeder some questions in regards to requirements on my end and what happens if I don't get a championship on him and such. She's out of town for a few days so will be emailing me when she gets back.


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## PatriciafromCO

Have you run the show circuit before ? that is some $$$$ out of your pocket, depending on your breed and how many points you need, and where to find shows with the right amount of entries to make your points that you need.. I wouldn't walk away with no compensation of the money and time that is needed to finish a dog, without options of compensation like future pick pup(s) or stud fees and an idea how many breeding's she is going to require you to agree too... if she is going to retain sole breeding right for the life of the dog...


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## MysticRealm

Thanks, yes I am definitely going to clarify with her about all those things. I'm also going to be clear that I will be more casually showing and can't do tons of traveling for it or anything so we may never get that championship.


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## fourdogs

I had a bad experience. I raised and loved this puppy, showed her to her CH, and then bred her twice. 2nd litter was VERY difficult for her to whelp and I wanted to spay her and make her a pet. Co-Owner said, no he had plans to breed her to 3 more males  He ended up taking her back and breeding her- 2 c-sections and then finally spaying her. To his credit, since she was housebroken, he kept her the rest of her life and adored her to the end. But still, very heart breaking for me. Won't repeat that again. I want them 100% mine.


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## elrohwen

fourdogs said:


> I had a bad experience. I raised and loved this puppy, showed her to her CH, and then bred her twice. 2nd litter was VERY difficult for her to whelp and I wanted to spay her and make her a pet. Co-Owner said, no he had plans to breed her to 3 more males  He ended up taking her back and breeding her- 2 c-sections and then finally spaying her. To his credit, since she was housebroken, he kept her the rest of her life and adored her to the end. But still, very heart breaking for me. Won't repeat that again. I want them 100% mine.


Wow, that is horrible!


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## Margot49

fourdogs said:


> I had a bad experience. I raised and loved this puppy, showed her to her CH, and then bred her twice. 2nd litter was VERY difficult for her to whelp and I wanted to spay her and make her a pet. Co-Owner said, no he had plans to breed her to 3 more males  He ended up taking her back and breeding her- 2 c-sections and then finally spaying her. To his credit, since she was housebroken, he kept her the rest of her life and adored her to the end. But still, very heart breaking for me. Won't repeat that again. I want them 100% mine.


How horrible for you and the dog!! Was that a contract stipulation? I never would have agreed to that. Too bad you didn't get her back. So sorry. That worked out for him real well!!!


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## MysticRealm

That's terrible fourdogs!
SO after a lot of research and talking to people I have decided that I need to go with a breeder near my city for my first show dog to have help from my breeder during the whole process. I have talked to one of the people that already offered to help me, who is a judge and standard poodle breeder, and she is willing to meet me and sell me a show prospect. From what I can understand, for a male at least, I wouldn't be required to do a co-ownership, but the cost is 1000 more than the other breeder! Phew! So I may need a second job to get the money for the dog if it's gonna be born within a few months haha. I have money for upkeep and everything but an extra 1000 more than I was kinda expecting is gonna take a bit of work haha.


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## elrohwen

Wow, an extra $1k is a lot more! It is nice to have full ownership though. My male was bought on full ownership and while I've had a lot of input from his breeder, and she used him for breeding, all of the decisions have come down to me only.


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## PatriciafromCO

not sure how things are today...... but I would expect to pay less for a top higher quality show prospect for doing a CO ownership where the other CO owner would be getting money back for services and stuff and that the dog would not be fully mine..... I rather pay the full higher price for the higher quality for a top show prospect then enter into a CO owner ship at all. and then allow the breeder to pay me a $500.00 stud fee in the future for having a good relationship.. All you need is a good Representative of the breed, a training center that does conformation classes and a phone , email to be in contact with a breeder that is happy to mentor you for having one of their dogs...


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## MysticRealm

PatriciafromCO said:


> not sure how things are today...... but I would expect to pay less for a top higher quality show prospect for doing a CO ownership where the other CO owner would be getting money back for services and stuff and that the dog would not be fully mine..... I rather pay the full higher price for the higher quality for a top show prospect then enter into a CO owner ship at all. and then allow the breeder to pay me a $500.00 stud fee in the future for having a good relationship.. All you need is a good Representative of the breed, a training center that does conformation classes and a phone , email to be in contact with a breeder that is happy to mentor you for having one of their dogs...


Yes, I realize that it is common/normal to pay more for a full ownership than co-ownership. I'm still happy to go with the full ownership even with the higher cost.


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## PatriciafromCO

MysticRealm said:


> Yes, I realize that it is common/normal to pay more for a full ownership than co-ownership. I'm still happy to go with the full ownership even with the higher cost.


am glad you can see the difference ... it is shameful how newbies are treated in the dog world to take advantage of them for being too trusting .. My first show prospect was more then I ever paid for a dog, had them shipped in only to find out they sold me a dog that had a uterus infection that they cleared up and sold her at full cost knowing she could never have puppies.. She could of died if we hadn't realized what was happening to her and seen the previous damage, and when I called her breeder the only thing she said was she sold me a bitch that would show in the ring. so her contract end was fufilled... not a brood bitch to every have puppies... How SAD is that.... Never had a problem with my standard $500.00 pet quality dogs with decent pedigrees, good hips/elbows and life long good health, who beat everyone in their class and took winners at their shows in breed... .. A good no fault dog that is worthy to be in the show ring to be judged is a good dog to have...


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## MM1234

I did a co-ownership with my German Pinscher male when I first bought him. I didn't pay full price for him and in my case, my dog was practically mine. On paper he had 2 owners, but he is MY dog. My breeder did not have any stipulations on how much to show my dog or about doing any breedings together. She did ask me not to neuter him in the case she wanted to breed to him, but in almost 13 years that has not happened & I doubt it will now. I'm one of those people that LOVE showing in conformation but don't do the breeding aspect of it.

One thing I have learned in this showing game is that contracts are only as good as the paper they are written on. Before signing any contract, have a lawyer look it over for you & even tell you if the contract is really enforceable or not or if it is one-sided. Some breeders have contracts that technically speaking aren't really enforceable or only benefits the breeder, but you wouldn't know that unless you're a lawyer.

Showing dogs is an expensive hobby. So think about that when signing a contract...I wouldn't want a breeder dictating to me how much I should show unless they are covering a portion of the expenses as part of the co-own. Certain breeds are hard to finish as an owner-handler due to the influx of professional handlers & the politics. So it may take you longer to finish your dog depending on the breed.

Another thing to take into consideration is health testing. There are breeders out there that want their dogs health tested at a certain age. If you are co-owning, does that mean both you & the breeder split the costs or are you footing the bill?

I was lucky to have a really nice breeder that wasn't a control freak. She was happy to show a newbie the ropes (we are both in the same state) & had a very basic co-own contract that I could live with. I have a very close friend who has had two terrible experiences with co-ownerships, so that has left her with a very bad taste in her mouth.

I personally would suggest to shy away from co-ownerships, but sometimes that's the only way to get into your breed. So it's like a catch-22. Whatever you do, ask LOTS of questions & have the contract looked over by an attorney.


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