# Trial Wise Dog



## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

After this weekend, and getting IGP 1, 2, 3 in just over 6 months my dog has become a bit "trial wise." 

The obedience portion of the exercise wants the dog to show power and focus in heeling and in exercises. He does.. in training.. 

At the trial, OTOH his power has changed to "just taking a walk with me." He is very happy going along as if on the Promenade Deck of a cruise ship.. tipping his top hat to any ladies as he passes by. He doesn't do anything terribly _wrong_ but it's the sort of heeling that will find no point forgiveness from a judge! 

He is a very very powerful dog in protection. He is also the epitome of confidence. If he were a person he would be a CEO of a large company (he is THAT confident in his power). All three trials he was on relatively new helpers.. and he flipped them around a bit. In his "2" he took the helper down on the last drive and it took me screaming "Out!!!" twice (from length of field distance) to get him to out (phew.. a third "out" would have DQ'd us). 

The last trial on Sunday for his "3" the helper did their very very best. He almost stopped the helper in the escape (which is his job in the trial) so the stage was set and he just became more powerful throughout the routine. The helper did not have enough upper body strength to "lock up" for the out. Therefore the "lock up" was a tug of war and while my dog DID "out" (a different dog would not have!) he took an extra bite on the way out.. as if to say , "You move there is more where that came from!" These things cost points. He also took a couple of dirty bites... after the walk up and "sit" before the transports (New Behavior.. and very naughty with point deductions.. but more of him giving attitude and having WAY too much fun based on his tail position and overall attitude). 

I think he needs to get on some really strong helpers and I will be traveling to get that and hope to "fix" the above mentioned issues without damaging his power. I also need to be choosey when I trial him to strong helpers.

The bottom line is he has become quite trial wise. He sees the spectators and he is like "Oh FUN TIMES coming up! No ball reward but I own everything here! Let's go have fun!" and boy does he (even in tracking even though he got a 90... he was naughty and played with the articles!). 

He is a very good dog and loves to work but with his confidence and complete lack of nerve (a little nerve can be your friend at times) and now _knowing_ it's a trial we lose points. I have my work cut out for me. 

That said he is sooooo happy it is very hard for me to be "stern" with him. In fact I try to hide my mirth but he KNOWS. I mean playing with the tracking article as I walk up? I am grateful he doesn't roll on it to make it smell like him instead of the track layer! 

While I know most here are into other disciplines and/or pet dogs, I have found that the community can sometimes make suggestions or have ideas that are "outside of the box" in this sport. 

Sooo...suggestions on getting more power and "discipline" (maybe not the right word?) with my smart, confident and (too) happy dog are welcome.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Sounds to me like your dog has become "_collar_ wise".

This is one of the pitfalls of training with corrections. Collar comes off during a trial, performance level falls.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Are there ever matches for IGP like there are for obedience? Some obedience matches allow training type things like rewards and corrections. That's about all I can think of that would really help a dog that knows the difference and is taking advantage of it.

My sympathy on having to supress the urge to laugh. Been there many times.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

@storyist there are almost never any IGP "matches." So much goes into the sport and it is a contact sport.. so rare are matches.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

@petpeeve actually it is more like "reward wise" than "collar wise." 

I train frequently with no e collar on at all. Power is there because the rewards are present. Even if the reward is off me outside the ring he knows the difference between "training" and "trialing." 

_If anything the issue is reward based, *not* correction based_.

I am looking for helpful input, not "I hate e collars and because you use one it has to be that" input. Thanks!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Well if you frequently train with no shock collar, and frequently train with no food rewards, which one is it that's causing the issues?

It seems like it could be either one, or possibly even both. Or for that matter, neither. I certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility that it's correction-related.

Although I can't say for sure. And I don't think anyone here is in a position to offer concrete suggestions, especially not without seeing it first hand. Posting a video would definitely help.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Thank you @petpeeve but I think you may not understand.

The rewards are, at this stage, a ball in obedience and a bite in protection.

Food is used to teach a completely new behavior (food is a learning reward as the drive is different). The ball is used to bring power and speed to the behavior previously learned using food. These dogs, in general, want that ball. Many call it "ball drive" but it is really a form of prey drive. The ball provides "drive satisfaction" which makes it highly desirable.

We have several seminars upcoming. The atmosphere at those is very trial like and the trainers are far more skilled than I am with titles/experience at world level. I am hoping to duplicate "Mr. Promenade going for a stroll tipping his hat to the ladies" there and get help and ideas. We shall see .. 

We DO sometimes return to food for lower drive exercises sometimes such as sit/down/stand out of motion. Food is used in tracking most of the time though a ball lightly buried on the track is also used. It depends on the dog. 

In training there is a ton of drive and focus whether or not an e collar is on. This drive CAN be increased by use of the e collar stim, but the issue is no e collar in trials so I personally do not use it for that. 

It may surprise you, but there are many dogs that become absolutely crazy driven when stimmed with an e collar.. upping the ante instead of responding with a drop in drive and the desired corrected obedience. THAT is not what I want so I don't travel down that road. 

These things most lay dog trainers and owners do not understand. They think the e collar leads to an irrecoverable fear due to a "shock." That is simply a total misunderstanding of the tool or how/when/why it is used. I often say here that while I use this tool it is not the right tool for most pet dogs and most pet owners and so do not typically recommend it. 

However, let's not get going on the e collar thing. 

I think this dog has figured out how to "self reward" in a trial. I will add that his heeling for an AKC obedience trial would be more than "blue ribbon." This is not that and demands more drive.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

My guess is you'll get a lot more helpful advice at those seminars than here where from what I've seen in posts no one else does IGP.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

storyist said:


> My guess is you'll get a lot more helpful advice at those seminars than here where from what I've seen in posts no one else does IGP.


Probably true. Sometimes folks here come up with ideas that are very worthwhile, so I put this up here for that.


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