# Spectating?



## gingerkid

So, I'm planning on going to see some local dog shows/competitions this summer (conformation, rally, and agility). I do not plan to bring my dog. I was just wondering what the protocol for spectating at these kinds of events are. Is there usually a dress code or entrance fee? Does protocol differ between conformation vs. rally vs. agility? Just generally, tips, what to expect, etc. would be great.

Thanks in advance everyone!


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## RabbleFox

Well... It's gonna be a lot of fun! That I know. 

Some things I keep in mind:
-Do not scream and shout at dogs in the ring (obvi)
-Don't stand too close to the ring
-Don't feed dogs without asking
-Don't pet dogs without asking
-Don't talk to handlers just before they are getting into the ring

-Do chat with other spectators!
-Do enjoy the atmosphere
-Do ask questions to handlers and owners when the dogs are on their bench
-Do take pictures (if allowed, no flash)

Mostly it's common sense. Most breeders and handlers will be more than happy to chit chat if they aren't just about to go into the ring. I love dog shows/events. Don't forget to post any photos you take!


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## ChaosIsAWeim

No there is no dress code, just what you would normally wear in public lol. There is usually either a parking fee or an entrance fee. At least at the shows I go too, never been to shows in Canada. 

Expect it to be busy, people going in all directions, specially at bigger shows. No touching dogs on grooming tables unless you have gotten permission, and yes you may know that but it is worth being said. Usually it is best to save questions for people till after they are done in the ring, the time before is spent getting the dogs settled or focused. 

Try to take in as much as you can, don't spend all your time at one ring, unless that is the breed you really want to see.


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## gingerkid

... what is the "bench"?


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## RabbleFox

gingerkid said:


> ... what is the "bench"?


There aren't many bench shows actually... But the big Detroit Show (the skipped this year  ) has rows and rows of wooden benches that handlers and breeders are required to be at when they aren't showing. Their dogs loiter on the bench or in crates and x-pens. It's a lot of fun but not everywhere has a bench policy!


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## gingerkid

Okay, unrelated (kind of) question: is that what "bench bred" refers to? Show lines?


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## RabbleFox

gingerkid said:


> Okay, unrelated (kind of) question: is that what "bench bred" refers to? Show lines?


I believe so. Most of the shows in the ye olden days were bench shows so I'm 98% sure that's were "bench bred" comes from.


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## GrinningDog

Oo, you'll have lots of fun!

I know I was a little nervous, going to my first dog event. But the rules are basically common sense stuff.  I wanted to advise you to bring money. There's often cool dog stuff to spend it on!


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## SDRRanger

When I have gone to spectate, the breed shows tend to have a fee to watch, but the agility and disc and such don't....also, bring money as a lot tend to have booths (even just a couple) and you know you're going to HAVE to pick something up for the furkids you've left home.

Edit: HA, beat me to it about the money Kirsten lol...I spend sooo much when I go


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## GrinningDog

SDRRanger said:


> When I have gone to spectate, the breed shows tend to have a fee to watch, but the agility and disc and such don't....also, bring money as a lot tend to have booths (even just a couple) and you know you're going to HAVE to pick something up for the furkids you've left home.
> 
> Edit: HA, beat me to it about the money Kirsten lol...I spend sooo much when I go


Oh my gosh, I know. Sooo easy to spend money there! There are all these cool things you never see at pet stores and suddenly, inexplicably must have.


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## elrohwen

Yay!

IME, there is no dress code. My husband shows up as my helper in ratty sneakers, jeans, sweatshirt, and a baseball cap. Haha. The handlers dress nicely, but it doesn't really matter for spectators unless it's Westminster or something where I would try to look a bit nicer.

Generally there is no admission fee, but about half the time I end up paying for parking (maybe $5 or so). You can buy a catalog if you want so you know who the dogs are, though many show steward companies will put them online so you can use a smartphone to look them up. The number of dogs entered is listed like this: class dogs-class bitches (special dogs-special bitches). So at a show this weekend it's 2-5 (3-0) which means there are 2 class dogs, 5 class bitches, 3 special dogs (already champions), and no special bitches. This will help you figure out what's going on in the ring and how many dogs are showing.

Make sure to check the schedule posted online so you know when your favorite breeds will go in. Just keep in mind that the ring time shown isn't exactly accurate. For example, if it says 9:30 ring time, Vizsla, English Springer, and Welsh Springer, the Welshies aren't going on right at 9:30. You have to count up the number of dogs in each breed and give 2 min per dog. So if there are 10 Vizsla and 10 English springers, I have to wait approximately 40 minutes until Welshies will go in. I didn't know that the first time and ended up waiting around forever.

Most conformation shows I've been to offer rally and obedience slightly removed from conformation (though sometimes right next to it). There isn't really a difference in spectator rules, though it's polite to be more quiet and inconspicuous where people are focusing on obedience. Near a conformation ring, people chat and point out dogs, etc. 

Most agility shows here are separate, at local agility facilities, though I did go to one huge show that had it all. In that case agility was pretty casual, just walk around and view what you want. I haven't been to any of the agility specific shows yet.

As others said, use common sense about petting dogs or talking to people. In general, professional handlers won't be too chatty because it's not "their breed" and they have other dogs to show. Owner-handlers are typically more than happy to talk your ear off though.

And yes, "brench bred" just refers to show line dogs. A "benched show" requires people to keep the dogs out on wooden benches basically, so the public can come around and see them. At non-benched shows (which is most) many people leave after their breed, or get there about an hour before ring time, so you won't necessarily see all breeds all day long as they come and go.


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## Laurelin

Some of the big confo shows have entrance fees. Agility is generally free. 

One thing I didn't see mentioned that is if you go to like a barn hunt you can get kicked out for giving the person working clues, even unintentionally. Like saying 'ooo' if they get near the rat, etc.


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## TheOtherCorgi

This has probably been mentioned, but it might bear repeating...

If you see a dog win that you don't like, don't bad mouth it. Even if you're just talking to someone beside you and not deliberately broadcasting the information, people can still hear what you're saying. 

It might not be a bad idea to bring a lawn chair. Seating is limited. 

At the last show I went to, there were a trio of ladies sitting in the very front seats lining the outside of the ring. They were loud, rude, and kept moving around and blocking everyone's view of what was going on through multiple classes. They did not have any dogs they were showing. They were just done with their own breed and just looking for something to do. 

Whether you show or are just spectating, just be courteous to the people around you and aware of what is going on.


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## elrohwen

Something else I just remembered is that some shows hold show tours early in the day. You can find information in the judging program. At my first show I wanted to take the tour, but there was no one else there, so one of the show volunteers just pointed things out for me.

I also agree with bringing your own chair. At many of the small outdoor shows in my area there are no chairs provided (or if there are, they are very limited - like 5 seats at each ring). I stand most of the time, but if you want to sit down and relax bringing your own chair is important.


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## Kyllobernese

They have never charged anything at the Agility shows I have been to. A lot of people do bring their dogs or puppies which is alright as long as they are not noisy or bothering the dogs competing. It is a good idea to bring a chair with you and most people will share their shade tents if it is hot or wet out. People are usually friendly and do not mind explaining the various classes and what is going on. I think Rally is similar but not sure of their rules re: dogs being there that are not competing.

Haven't been to a conformation show since probably the 60's so have no idea how they are nowadays. There used to be lots of benched shows where you had to have your dog there all day long but they were starting to have more unbenched shows so you only had to have your dog there while you were showing it, then could leave when you were finished. I think they usually charge admission but may depend on where they are held.


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## petpeeve

Good tips so far. A few more to add ...

*Always grant the 'right of way' to competitors with their dogs as they're entering / exiting the rings, and as they're travelling to / from the rings.
*Don't 'gun down' any of the dogs as they are competing, especially obedience and rally dogs. It's certainly fine to watch, just be mindful that any long hard stares can potentially throw dogs off of their game.
*Don't, even inadvertently, rattle any potato chip bags or crinkle any plastic water bottles while standing ringside.


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## gingerkid

Thanks everyone for the tips! I'm really excited for the show next weekend. Even more so now that I've seen the list of entries, and its not just all breeds that I don't like/am not interested in.

I did have a question about the schedule though. The show runs Friday, Saturday, Sunday and it looks like all of the breeds are shown on all of the days?

Here's the schedule: http://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/502_BattleRiverCanineAssociation_JudgingSchedule1.pdf

We're planning on going only on Saturday, since we have plans on Sunday.


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## elrohwen

Typically, each day of a show is a completely different show and the whole thing is called a cluster (very big shows like Westminster or Crufts have one show spread out over multiple days). This weekend I showed Saturday and Sunday, and each day it was a new competition with a new judge (though the same dogs were there for the most part). It's not required to come for every day, so many people will be there all 3 days, and others might come for 1 or 2 days. For performance events, they can do it the same way, or have dogs show on only specific days.


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## doggiepop

go to the shows and learn as you go. don't be intimidated.


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## petpeeve

So ... how was your first experience? impressions please, do tell.
Hoping it was a good one, and now you're hooked


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## doggiepop

gingerkid: i read you're planning on taking your dog to
the dog shows. if your dog is anyway reactive to other dogs
don't take him to the shows.


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## gingerkid

doggiepop said:


> gingerkid: i read you're planning on taking your dog to
> the dog shows. if your dog is anyway reactive to other dogs
> don't take him to the shows.


No, you didn't read that. I specifically stated I _wasn't_ planning on taking Snowball to dog shows, at least not in the near future. He's actually been in a similar situation before (a local pet fundraiser) and loved it and was an amazing gentleman, but the conditions to set him up for success in a situation like that are not available at dog shows, and I am not an idiot.

I had a great big long reply typed up about how awesome the show was yesterday, and how neat it was to see the variation within breeds (some more than others). I was pretty good at picking out the winners, at least of breeds I am more familiar with/care about in any capacity. I didn't get a chance to speak to any owners really, I was too busy watching. I think the one that is here in my city in May will be a better opportunity for me to meet owners/handlers/breeders, because I won't have to worry so much about missing a group, or if groups are running at the same time I can go to them on different days, etc.

I really enjoyed actually getting to watch obedience and rally-O. I really only had a basic concept of what they involved, so it was good to see what actually goes on.


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## Laurelin

Just a general thing for anyone reading DON'T tell your kid to go pet the barking dog in the crate if you're at a show. My friend and I had some issues this weekend with a parent wanting to play petting zoo with Mia and her Aussie who are both not kid friendly dogs. Even if you're at a dog event don't assume that the dogs are all overly friendly. Ask before petting or letting your kid pet them.


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## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Just a general thing for anyone reading DON'T tell your kid to go pet the barking dog in the crate if you're at a show. My friend and I had some issues this weekend with a parent wanting to play petting zoo with Mia and her Aussie who are both not kid friendly dogs. Even if you're at a dog event don't assume that the dogs are all overly friendly. Ask before petting or letting your kid pet them.


This. Would. Drive. Me. Nuts. 

Dog type events are the one place I honestly expect people to have a good enough idea not to assume that every dog in the world is friendly and will love them/their kid, and understand to keep their hands to themselves. Somehow, that happening at an agility trial just seems... worse.


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## Laurelin

CptJack said:


> This. Would. Drive. Me. Nuts.
> 
> Dog type events are the one place I honestly expect people to have a good enough idea not to assume that every dog in the world is friendly and will love them/their kid, and understand to keep their hands to themselves. Somehow, that happening at an agility trial just seems... worse.


Yeah. It was annoying. :/

It was RIGHT (like maybe 1 or 2 minutes) after Summer and I got out of the ring. I'm trying to treat her and give her water, etc. Wasn't trying to be mean but Summer had no interest in getting pets at the moment. I'm panting, etc. So the dad thought since Summer wasn't paying attention to his kid that she should go pet Mia. And then they would. not. go. away. For like almost 10 minutes. I finally was like 'OKAY, got to let the dogs potty now!' and they finally left.... to go try to pet the aussies set up next to me. 

We also had a really weird guy come up on a bike (we were inside). I'm thinking he was high or something... very weird vibe. Set the aussies OFF. Did not have Mia that day with me.

I don't even know how non dog people get to these things. This was the smallest trial I've ever been to and way out of the way. No signs posted around or anything....


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## elrohwen

Gingerkid, I'm glad you had fun! Which breeds did you watch? Which were the most fun to watch?


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> Gingerkid, I'm glad you had fun! Which breeds did you watch? Which were the most fun to watch?


 Apparently I have a thing for breeds starting with S. I watched Shibas (3), Schipperkes (4), Shelties (22), Samoyeds (3), Malamutes (12), and Akita (1). We also ended up watching Bernese Mt. Dogs (5) and Bullmastiffs (5) - they were in the middle of the Sams, Mals, and Akita - and also the Working Group (Group 3) Best in Group. They were all really great to watch. It was really cool seeing the huge variation in the shelties! Not just in coat colour, but in amount/length of coat, face shape, ear size, etc. They also had the widest variation in.. temperament? The gap between dogs who clearly LOVED being in the ring and there was a couple of shelties that just were not having any of it. One spent the entire time with tail tucked, ears back the whole time, reluctant to walk, but was great structurally because he went around the ring quite a few times and was in the ring more than once? It was kind of hard to follow what was going on because they don't announce anything and I didn't have the list of entries.

I'd have to say that my favourites though, were the Samoyeds. One of them was still a puppy, and OMG HE WAS SO HAPPY.... and he was a dead-ringer for a Snowball clone, size and everything. And also ZOMG FLUFFY. The Mals were great too - so powerful, but most were a tad bit goofy.

I would've liked to see the ACDs, Kelpie, and Aussies, but they were the first breeds to go - ACDs (3) at 8am sharp, followed by 1 keplie and then 10 aussies.


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## elrohwen

It can be hard to follow if you don't have a catalog and don't know how many classes are going. At the last show I was at, there were Welshie bitches entered in 3 classes - American Bred, Bred by Exhibitor, and Open (maybe even one in the 9-12 month class, I forget). So it was a bunch of bitches going in one at a time, except for Open which had two entered. Then they all come back in together (because they all technically won their classes, being the only dogs entered) and competed for Winners Bitch. Then the Winners Bitch goes back in for the Best of Breed, so one dog can be in and out of the ring up to 3 times. 

Just watching a completely random breed where I don't know how many dogs are entered and which classes they are entered in, it can be confusing as dogs are going in and out. In AKC shows the ring steward typically calls out which class is going in (and the numbers of the dogs), but unless you are standing right next to them it's impossible to hear. 

It's funny, I can't remember seeing any of those breeds at shows, probably because I'm usually near the rings with the sporting dogs. It's funny how I'll see like 20 corgis go past, if they are showing at a similar time to me, but then there are tons of breeds who I don't see a single representative of if they are showing at a different time. 

The variation is always interesting to me. I see quite a bit of variation in Welshies for temperament, coat, head, etc. When I watch the English springers, I can hardly tell one from another. It could be that at small local shows most dogs are related and look alike, but most of the Welshies I meet are related to Watson and some look very different.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

elrohwen said:


> When I watch the English springers, I can hardly tell one from another. It could be that at small local shows most dogs are related and look alike, but most of the Welshies I meet are related to Watson and some look very different.


Most of what you see up that way is likely Cerise ESS, so yeah they are related.


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## elrohwen

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Most of what you see up that way is likely Cerise ESS, so yeah they are related.


Yeah, that kennel name sounds familiar. It's weird though to see 20 ESS and have them look so alike.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, that kennel name sounds familiar. It's weird though to see 20 ESS and have them look so alike.


You might see some Telltale, if her handler goes out that way, but it's mainly Cerise (who is in CT), you might see some others too that names escape me. Cerise and Telltale are two of the biggest ESS kennels though.

The girls that I show go back to Telltale.


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## petpeeve

Laurelin said:


> I don't even know how non dog people get to these things. This was the smallest trial I've ever been to and way out of the way. No signs posted around or anything....


 In my area, conformation shows are generally promoted as being spectator-friendly. People are encouraged to attend by way of newspaper advertisements, roadside signs etc. There is usually an admission fee, and there are numerous vendors who rely on peddling their wares to the public as well as to the competitors. It's a relatively lively event, with a fair share of hustle and bustle.

On the other hand - obedience, rally and agility trials are typically not promoted at all. There is no advertising of the event, no vendors, and no admission fee. The atmosphere is typically low key and subdued. Spectators are not 'directly' discouraged per se, and there always seems to be a few tinhorns who sift in from the streets. Unfortunately, these are the people who have absolutely no clue about proper etiquette because no one has ever advised them otherwise. And they often irk the competitors unknowingly. 

I've often thought that clubs SHOULD promote their trials more to the JQP types, in order to generate interest / wrangle newcomers into the fold, who would then support these sports moving into the future as potential competitors themselves. Perhaps the trial committees could make prepared copies of general etiquette and FAQ's sheets available at the gate? although that's probably asking too much, I don't really know. Sad, because declining entries seem to be a widespread issue worthy of consideration and fresh ideas. And it's tightening the noose of something I'd rather see carry on strongly for generations to come. 

Just how I view things anyway.


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## Shep

petpeeve said:


> I've often thought that clubs SHOULD promote their trials more to the JQP types, in order to generate interest / wrangle newcomers into the fold, who would then support these sports moving into the future as potential competitors themselves. Perhaps the trial committees could make prepared copies of general etiquette and FAQ's sheets available at the gate? although that's probably asking too much, I don't really know. Sad, because declining entries seem to be a widespread issue worthy of consideration and fresh ideas. And it's tightening the noose of something I'd rather see carry on strongly for generations to come.
> 
> Just how I view things anyway.



I agree. It's always kind of amazing to me that people seem to be more interested in watching dogs trotting around in a circle than actually DOING things. One big show cluster I often attend has conformation, obedience, rally, agility, flyball, herding instinct tests, and lure coursing. Yet I see almost no spectators anywhere but at the breed rings. I know as an obedience person I'm totally prejudiced, but to me it's fascinating to watch smart dogs showing off their smarts. I wish more people knew about performance events.


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> I agree. It's always kind of amazing to me that people seem to be more interested in watching dogs trotting around in a circle than actually DOING things. One big show cluster I often attend has conformation, obedience, rally, agility, flyball, herding instinct tests, and lure coursing. Yet I see almost no spectators anywhere but at the breed rings. I know as an obedience person I'm totally prejudiced, but to me it's fascinating to watch smart dogs showing off their smarts. I wish more people knew about performance events.


I think some people just don't understand obedience. At least conformation has pretty well groomed dogs trotting around (and so many breeds to see) so it's flashier even if people don't know what's going on. 

Obedience to me is more like dressage - it's not that interesting unless you have a first hand knowledge of the subtleties and difficultly. Agility is more like show jumping - it's exciting even if you've never been on a horse (or trained a dog). I find that even non-dog people are interested in watching agility. 

The shows around here aren't advertised at all, as far as I can tell. I know someone who is into dogs (trains service dogs) and lives right down the street from one of the biggest shows in the area, and she had no idea it existed until I mentioned it to her. If someone living that close and also into dogs didn't know about it, I don't think the word is getting out to the general public.


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## Shep

Maybe so. I know the first time I saw obedience I was captivated, even though I didn't know what was going on. Just the sight of a lineup of dogs sitting quiet and still while their handlers were nowhere in sight made my jaw drop.  

Then again, I have no idea why people want to spend a beautiful autumn weekend watching large men crash into each other in pursuit of a piece of pigskin, so....


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> Maybe so. I know the first time I saw obedience I was captivated, even though I didn't know what was going on. Just the sight of a lineup of dogs sitting quiet and still while their handlers were nowhere in sight made my jaw drop.
> 
> Then again, I have no idea why people want to spend a beautiful autumn weekend watching large men crash into each other in pursuit of a piece of pigskin, so....


Haha. I'm with you on that! I lose interest in football games about 5 minutes in.


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> It can be hard to follow if you don't have a catalog and don't know how many classes are going. At the last show I was at, there were Welshie bitches entered in 3 classes - American Bred, Bred by Exhibitor, and Open (maybe even one in the 9-12 month class, I forget). So it was a bunch of bitches going in one at a time, except for Open which had two entered. Then they all come back in together (because they all technically won their classes, being the only dogs entered) and competed for Winners Bitch. Then the Winners Bitch goes back in for the Best of Breed, so one dog can be in and out of the ring up to 3 times.
> 
> Just watching a completely random breed where I don't know how many dogs are entered and which classes they are entered in, it can be confusing as dogs are going in and out. In AKC shows the ring steward typically calls out which class is going in (and the numbers of the dogs), but unless you are standing right next to them it's impossible to hear.
> 
> It's funny, I can't remember seeing any of those breeds at shows, probably because I'm usually near the rings with the sporting dogs. It's funny how I'll see like 20 corgis go past, if they are showing at a similar time to me, but then there are tons of breeds who I don't see a single representative of if they are showing at a different time.
> 
> The variation is always interesting to me. I see quite a bit of variation in Welshies for temperament, coat, head, etc. When I watch the English springers, I can hardly tell one from another. It could be that at small local shows most dogs are related and look alike, but most of the Welshies I meet are related to Watson and some look very different.


Are the classes normally listed in the schedule? The show I was at had M, F, SM, and SF?


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## elrohwen

The classes offered are listed, but people won't necessarily enter all of them. Not sure about the CKC so much, but AKC will offer a bunch of classes - 6-9 month old, 9-12 month, 12-18 month, Open, Bred by Exhibitor, American Bred, etc and in a small breed only a couple of those will have entries. Each of those classes is offered independently for dogs, and then for bitches. So dogs in Open don't directly compete with bitches in Open, for example. Only the best of the class dogs (Winners Dog) and best of the class bitches (Winners Bitch) goes into the Best of Breed ring to compete against the "specials" or dogs and bitches who are already champions. 

The catalog will list out every dog entered and the class they are entered in, so it will be clear what class is going on by looking at the dog(s) in the ring and the arm band number of the handler. 

Hopefully that made some sense! The M, F, SM, and SF you listed sounds like it's just class dogs, class bitches, special dogs, and special bitches, but there are probably more classes actually available for the class dogs. It would be easier if you were in the US and this was an AKC show, because I don't know exactly how AKC and CKC differ.

Do you have a link to the premium list or schedule?


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## Foresthund

I understand obedience and can appreciate how well their trained, but I just never got into it,why I like conformation more is just based on all the different breeds in it. 
As a spectator what I like the most can be based on how good of photos I can get, there for Conformation is above indoor agility,indoor agility above rally but outdoor agility is above conformation in my interests. I do prefer seeing dogs in action but I`m kind of obsessed over picture taking as well.


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## cookieface

I've volunteered at agility and obedience trials, and attended a conformation show. Agility is by far my favorite; in addition to being more flashy, everyone - handlers and dogs - appeared to be having a blast. At the obedience trial, handlers were much more serious and many of the dogs seemed stressed; the atmosphere was tense in contrast to agility's friendly, laid-back energy.

The conformation show was kind of boring except when I happened to know a dog in the ring. I didn't have a program and the announcer was impossible to hear, so that didn't help. I was able to visit with Katie's breeder, see her sister, and meet some internet friends, so that made it worthwhile.


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> The classes offered are listed, but people won't necessarily enter all of them. Not sure about the CKC so much, but AKC will offer a bunch of classes - 6-9 month old, 9-12 month, 12-18 month, Open, Bred by Exhibitor, American Bred, etc and in a small breed only a couple of those will have entries. Each of those classes is offered independently for dogs, and then for bitches. So dogs in Open don't directly compete with bitches in Open, for example. Only the best of the class dogs (Winners Dog) and best of the class bitches (Winners Bitch) goes into the Best of Breed ring to compete against the "specials" or dogs and bitches who are already champions.
> 
> The catalog will list out every dog entered and the class they are entered in, so it will be clear what class is going on by looking at the dog(s) in the ring and the arm band number of the handler.
> 
> Hopefully that made some sense! The M, F, SM, and SF you listed sounds like it's just class dogs, class bitches, special dogs, and special bitches, but there are probably more classes actually available for the class dogs. It would be easier if you were in the US and this was an AKC show, because I don't know exactly how AKC and CKC differ.
> 
> Do you have a link to the premium list or schedule?


The schedule only lists M/F/SM/SP. This is what they've called the Premium List on the website? http://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/502_BattleRiverCanineAssociation_PremiumList3.pdf

Here's the schedule: http://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/502_BattleRiverCanineAssociation_JudgingSchedule1.pdf


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## ChaosIsAWeim

gingerkid said:


> The schedule only lists M/F/SM/SP. This is what they've called the Premium List on the website? http://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/502_BattleRiverCanineAssociation_PremiumList3.pdf
> 
> Here's the schedule: http://www.dogshow.ca/Docs/502_BattleRiverCanineAssociation_JudgingSchedule1.pdf


Yeah M is males, F is females, SM is special males, and SF is special females, specials are champions. A judging program is not going to list which class each dog is entered in, only the catalog does that or your entry confirmation. 

A premium list, basically just tells you about the show, and almost always has entry forms in them. But most people just enter online.


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## elrohwen

If you look at page 8 of the premium list it shows classes offered. They are very similar to AKC with classes for various age puppies, Open, Canadian Bred, Bred by Exhibitor, etc. As Chaos said, the judging program won't tell you how many are entered in each class, just that there are, say, 5 class dogs and 7 class bitches. The catalog will tell you which actual class they are in and that determines the order they go in the ring and how many others they compete with directly. The first place dog in each class competes for Winners Dog.


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## elrohwen

So for example, you have 5 class dogs (non-champions) entered and their names are A, B, C, D, and E.

A is entered in the 9-12 month puppy class
B is entered in Bred by Exhibitor
C, D, and E are entered in Open (any dog can enter in Open and it's often the biggest class).

So A and B automatically win their classes (unless the judge excuses them). A will go in first by himself, the judge will look him over, then give him a blue ribbon. Then B will go in alone and do the same.

C, D, and E go into the ring together for the Open class. The judge ranks them and maybe D wins, so he gets a blue ribbon.

Now the winners of the classes have to compete for Winners Dog, so A, B, and D enter the ring together. The judge has already looked them over closely, so he will probably do less examination this time and mostly watch them move around together and stand stacked next to each other. Let's say the judge picks dog B as Winners Dog, so he gets a purple ribbon and he wins some points. To make it easy, let's say that 5 dogs competing is worth 4 points (as it is in Welshies in my area) so dog B gets a 4 point major win.

Now the bitches do the same thing. Let's say bitch G gets winners bitch and wins 2 points.

Now, Dog B and Bitch G go into the ring with the specials (who are already champions). Maybe there are 2 special dogs and 1 special bitch, then Dog B as the Winners Dog, and Bitch G as Winners Bitch. The judge checks them all out and decides Special Dog 1 is the best of breed, and Special Bitch is the best of Opposite Sex. He could have picked the Winners Dog or Winners Bitch here, but more often than not the specials will take the win. 

Now he just has to pick a Best of Winners judging between Dog B and Bitch G. If he picks Bitch G, she picks up a 4 point major, since there was a major in dogs, and Dog B also keeps his 4 point major. Judges will often do this so that both dogs get the max number of points (assuming they are of fairly equal quality). If he picks Dog B as Best of Winners, then Dog B keeps his 4 points, and Bitch G keeps her 2 points.

The only one who moves on from here is the Best of Breed winner, who will go on to compete in the group ring.

I hope this made sense! I wanted to explain how the classes work, and why one dog might go in the ring 3 times before everything is done.


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## gingerkid

Elrohwen, I am going to print your post and take it with me to the next show. 

What is the "Bred by Exhibitor"? Is that where the owner handles the dog in the ring? (I.e. no professional handlers)


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> Elrohwen, I am going to print your post and take it with me to the next show.
> 
> What is the "Bred by Exhibitor"? Is that where the owner handles the dog in the ring? (I.e. no professional handlers)


Glad it helped! Of course there are a lot of other situations that can come up, but in general that's pretty much how it goes. 

Bred by Exhibitor just means that the breeder is showing the dog, so yes, it usually means no professional handler (unless the pro handler is also the breeder, which does happen). The breeder isn't necessarily the owner either, though they might retain co-ownership. 

IME, people typically enter puppies in the appropriate age class, then after 18 months enter them in Open (you could show a puppy in Open, but it's nice to enter the puppy class so the judge knows your dog is young and has some growing to do). In breeds with a lot of entries it can help to pick some of the less popular classes, like Bred by Exhibitor or American Bred, because you might be competing with only a couple other dogs, instead of 20 other dogs in Open. Of course, yous dog will still have to compete against the winner of the Open class, but it gives you a slightly better chance of advancing than if you go into that huge Open class. Also, your dog still has to be good enough to beat the winner of that big Open class (who is probably a nice dog since it beat so many others in a tough class). Personally I think it's kind of pointless to enter any class other than the puppy classes and Open, but people have their reasons. I do see why breeders might like to enter Bred by Exhibitor to show off the dog they have produced.

There is a new thing in the AKC to encourage owner-handlers and you can get separate points for that (towards best owner-handler or something), but I'm not entirely clear on how it works and you have to enter correctly in order to be eligible. I only know one Welshie person who enters the owner-handler competition, though I know plenty of people who show their own dogs, so it hasn't caught on much in my circle.


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## doggiepop

so, i guess when you wrote "i do not plan to bring my dog". you meant you're not planning to
take your dog to the shows. i think you need to be more clear when writing.



gingerkid said:


> So, I'm planning on going to see some local dog shows/competitions this summer (conformation, rally, and agility).
> 
> >>>>> I do not plan to bring my dog. <<<<<
> 
> I was just wondering what the protocol for spectating at these kinds of events are. Is there usually a dress code or entrance fee? Does protocol differ between conformation vs. rally vs. agility? Just generally, tips, what to expect, etc. would be great.
> 
> Thanks in advance everyone!





doggiepop said:


> gingerkid: i read you're planning on taking your dog to
> the dog shows. if your dog is anyway reactive to other dogs
> don't take him to the shows.





gingerkid said:


> >>>>> No, you didn't read that. I specifically stated I _wasn't_ planning on taking Snowball to dog shows, <<<<<
> 
> 
> at least not in the near future. He's actually been in a similar situation before (a local pet fundraiser) and loved it and was an amazing gentleman, but the conditions to set him up for success in a situation like that are not available at dog shows, and I am not an idiot.
> 
> I had a great big long reply typed up about how awesome the show was yesterday, and how neat it was to see the variation within breeds (some more than others). I was pretty good at picking out the winners, at least of breeds I am more familiar with/care about in any capacity. I didn't get a chance to speak to any owners really, I was too busy watching. I think the one that is here in my city in May will be a better opportunity for me to meet owners/handlers/breeders, because I won't have to worry so much about missing a group, or if groups are running at the same time I can go to them on different days, etc.
> 
> I really enjoyed actually getting to watch obedience and rally-O. I really only had a basic concept of what they involved, so it was good to see what actually goes on.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

elrohwen said:


> Bred by Exhibitor just means that the breeder is showing the dog, so yes, it usually means no professional handler (unless the pro handler is also the breeder, which does happen). The breeder isn't necessarily the owner either, though they might retain co-ownership.


To show in BBE, you have to be the breeder and owner of the dog. While yes ownership may just be on paper and the dog doesn't necessarily live with you, most of the times the dog is really owned by the breeder/handler.


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## ChaosIsAWeim

doggiepop said:


> so, i guess when you wrote "i do not plan to bring my dog". you meant you're not planning to
> take your dog to the shows. i think you need to be more clear when writing.


How much more clearer can "I do not plan to bring my dog" can one get?


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## elrohwen

doggiepop said:


> so, i guess when you wrote "i do not plan to bring my dog". you meant you're not planning to
> take your dog to the shows. i think you need to be more clear when writing.


Wait. What? I'm pretty sure "I'm not planning to bring my dog" is about as clear as it can possibly be stated.


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## elrohwen

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> To show in BBE, you have to be the breeder and owner of the dog. While yes ownership may just be on paper and the dog doesn't necessarily live with you, most of the times the dog is really owned by the breeder/handler.


Oh really? I thought they just had to be the breeder and not necessarily he owner. Good to know!


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## doggiepop

that's funny. i thought it was clear that i was joking about gingerkid being clear when writing.



gingerkid said:


> So, I'm planning on going to see some local dog shows/competitions this summer (conformation, rally, and agility). I do not plan to bring my dog. I was just wondering what the protocol for spectating at these kinds of events are. Is there usually a dress code or entrance fee? Does protocol differ between conformation vs. rally vs. agility? Just generally, tips, what to expect, etc. would be great.
> 
> Thanks in advance everyone!





doggiepop said:


> gingerkid: i read you're planning on taking your dog to
> the dog shows. if your dog is anyway reactive to other dogs
> don't take him to the shows.





doggiepop said:


> so, i guess when you wrote "i do not plan to bring my dog". you meant you're not planning to
> take your dog to the shows. i think you need to be more clear when writing.





ChaosIsAWeim said:


> >>>>> How much more clearer can "I do not plan to bring my dog" can one get?<<<<<


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## ChaosIsAWeim

elrohwen said:


> Oh really? I thought they just had to be the breeder and not necessarily he owner. Good to know!


From the Rulebook

"SECTION 8. The Bred-by-Exhibitor Class shall be 
for dogs that are:
• Six months of age or older as of the first day of the 
show;
• Not Champions on the date of closing of entries for 
the show;
• Individually registered with The American Kennel 
Club as of the date of the show;
• Owned or co-owned by any of the breeders of 
record as of the date of the show.
The person handling the dog in this class must be a 
breeder of record and an owner of record of this dog.
In any subsequent classes for which a dog from the 
Bred-by-Exhibitor class becomes eligible, there are no 
restrictions as to who may handle."


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## CptJack

And now I can't read. LOL.


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## gingerkid

doggiepop said:


> that's funny. i thought it was clear that i was joking about gingerkid being clear when writing.


Well, I thought I was clear about the fact that I wasn't going to be taking my dog, but obviously that wasn't the case.


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