# what to do when your dog does something wrong?



## nick88 (Dec 21, 2008)

Any tips?

I praise my dog when he does something good, but i also need to know something you could do when he does something wrong. I know you can just walk away, but he does his worst behaviour when he's on his leash, so i obviously cant do that...

thanks


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

What does your dog do that needs correcting? It depends on what it is.


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## nick88 (Dec 21, 2008)

well i think he just hates his leash (he used to be stray). He takes it in his mouth and pulls it hard and then proceeds to bite me in my arms, legs and hands. For some reason he gets very aggresive when were walking him but at home hes doing great.


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## Max'N'MillersMomma (Nov 27, 2008)

It sounds fear based to me. I would put the leash on him while he is at home and just let him walk around with it on. After he is ok with that maybe try to walk him around the backyard till he is used to being on it. You say you got him as a stray. Approx how old is he? Maybe he has never been walked on a leash. Just start with baby steps and be patient.

How do you respond when he does these things?


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## nick88 (Dec 21, 2008)

Max'N'MillersMomma said:


> It sounds fear based to me. I would put the leash on him while he is at home and just let him walk around with it on. After he is ok with that maybe try to walk him around the backyard till he is used to being on it. You say you got him as a stray. Approx how old is he? Maybe he has never been walked on a leash. Just start with baby steps and be patient.
> 
> How do you respond when he does these things?



thanks, i'll try putting the leash on at home. He is 1 year old and we got him at the humane society.

I've tried ignoring which didnt do anything. I tried getting in his space which was a bad idea.

Now i bring treats with me and everytime he starts i tell him to sit and give him a treat. This may distracte him for a few minutes (sometimes requires multiple times to sit/treat) but he starts back again after.

I started a course around my nebourhood so that he can get use to it and so that if things get out of hand, the house is close by. Which ends up happening after 1 run.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

What you do depends on the submissive/dominence coefficient of your dog. I made up that term so don't bother Googling it. 

If a firm "No!" doesn't stop them, and yelling at them simply causes them to look at you with half interest..then you need to really get in their face, hold them restrained by the collar and scream NOOOO! right in their face. Maybe confinement to quarters (such as a bathroom) for a "timeout" is in order. Your dogs response may vary from one extreme to another depending on their "mode" at the moment, how rewarding the unwanted behavior is, and the history of your interactions in the past. 

Never, ever hit your dog. Not that you were thinking that but someone else might.


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## nick88 (Dec 21, 2008)

wizer said:


> What you do depends on the submissive/dominence coefficient of your dog. I made up that term so don't bother Googling it.
> 
> If a firm "No!" doesn't stop them, and yelling at them simply causes them to look at you with half interest..then you need to really get in their face, hold them restrained by the collar and scream NOOOO! right in their face. Maybe confinement to quarters (such as a bathroom) for a "timeout" is in order. Your dogs response may vary from one extreme to another depending on their "mode" at the moment, how rewarding the unwanted behavior is, and the history of your interactions in the past.
> 
> Never, ever hit your dog. Not that you were thinking that but someone else might.


I cant confine somewhere when he is outside...btw he is doing great inside.

And i dont think doing that will help, it might make things worse.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

nick88 said:


> I cant confine somewhere when he is outside...btw he is doing great inside.
> 
> And i dont think doing that will help, it might make things worse.


What's your dog doing outside that you want to stop?

Edit- I reread this thread. The biting and aggressive behavior MUST be stopped. He's wearing a collar and a leash, that gives you the edge. Choke up on it and don't let him reach your body..that's how you confine him..until he settles down. If he doesn't settle down, he goes inside, where he CAN be confined. 


He bites the leash in his mouth? Get a length of chain for the first few feet. Let him try chewing on THAT. Put some of that stuff on the leash that dog hate the taste of. 

He'll get the idea. Consistency is key.


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## 2malts4me (Aug 23, 2008)

You know, I'm really not trying to pick on you two posts in a row, but please explain your training theory to me of getting in a dog's face and screaming "NOOOOO!!!" What exactly do you expect this to accompllish in the course of training? You keep saying don't hit your dog - which I agree 100% with, but you seem to have no problem grabbing them "roughly" by the collar and screaming in their face. Where do you draw the line at training and abuse? I'm guess I'm just at a loss of understanding at your training practices.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

2malts4me said:


> Where do you draw the line at training and abuse? I'm guess I'm just at a loss of understanding at your training practices.


When I am trying to stop my dog from doing something, and a harsh verbal command gets nothing but a half a look or nothing, then I take the collar, hold it firmly, turn the dog towards me and say or even yell "NO!" right in its face from less than a foot away. I have done this with such things as the dog eating cat crap or other garbage that it finds when we are walking. If she responds to the "drop it" command, she gets verbal praise or even a treat if I brought one, if she ignores me, it's leash grab and in her face yelling. 

It works and does not usually need to be repeated more than a few times although I have found sometimes it needs to be done at a later date if she "forgets" or decides to "test" me.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

You've got a couple different options. 

First, you can ignore the the behavior - give no response, positive or negative. The behavior doesn't produce what the dog wants, so he tries something else that you may e able to reward (if it's something you like.) That behavior pays off, so he's more likely to try that in the future. For many dogs who like to grab hands and legs, if you just freeze in place, they'll stop. You can then quietly and calmly ask for something he knows how to do really really well (sit is the best optoin for most dogs) and the nreward that.

Second, you can manage the behavior. Spray your arms and legs with bitter apple, and use a chain leash (or put a piece of PVC pipe or plastic hose over your leash) so that it's not good to chew on. Use that to minimize the problem while teaching another behavior. 

Thirdly, you can correct the behavoir in some manner. Treating this like normal puppy mouthing (Short sharp high-pitched "Ow!" and removing yourself from the situation (loop the leash over something and walk 10' away- stand with your back to the dog and ignore him for a minute or two, then come back and try again) is usually successful if you'll apply it very consistantly. 

With options 1 or 3, it's not going to be an instant fix. Apply it EVERY time. You may spend an hour and have ot do it 10 or 12 times the first day. It will feel like you spend ALL your time walking away from the dog. Hang in there, and keep a log- you WILL see the behavior decrease over the course of two weeks or so.



wizer said:


> When I am trying to stop my dog from doing something, and a harsh verbal command gets nothing but a half a look or nothing, then I take the collar, hold it firmly, turn the dog towards me and say or even yell "NO!" right in its face from less than a foot away. I have done this with such things as the dog eating cat crap or other garbage that it finds when we are walking. If she responds to the "drop it" command, she gets verbal praise or even a treat if I brought one, if she ignores me, it's leash grab and in her face yelling.
> 
> It works and does not usually need to be repeated more than a few times although I have found sometimes it needs to be done at a later date if she "forgets" or decides to "test" me.


So basically, you're going to intimidate the dog into being completely passive? NICE. 

If you're going to use punishments, you need to learn to apply them correctly. This isn't it.


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## 2malts4me (Aug 23, 2008)

Sorry, but I still don't get the yelling in her face. I'm not a dog trainer, but I don't see the usefullness of getting down in a dog's face and yelling at them unless you want a fearful dog. Must make for a wonderful bonding experience and such a pleasant walk for you and your dog.



wizer said:


> When I am trying to stop my dog from doing something, and a harsh verbal command gets nothing but a half a look or nothing, then I take the collar, hold it firmly, turn the dog towards me and say or even yell "NO!" right in its face from less than a foot away. I have done this with such things as the dog eating cat crap or other garbage that it finds when we are walking. If she responds to the "drop it" command, she gets verbal praise or even a treat if I brought one, if she ignores me, it's leash grab and in her face yelling.
> 
> It works and does not usually need to be repeated more than a few times although I have found sometimes it needs to be done at a later date if she "forgets" or decides to "test" me.


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## nick88 (Dec 21, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> You've got a couple different options.
> 
> First, you can ignore the the behavior - give no response, positive or negative. The behavior doesn't produce what the dog wants, so he tries something else that you may e able to reward (if it's something you like.) That behavior pays off, so he's more likely to try that in the future. For many dogs who like to grab hands and legs, if you just freeze in place, they'll stop. You can then quietly and calmly ask for something he knows how to do really really well (sit is the best optoin for most dogs) and the nreward that.
> 
> ...



Thanks!

I'll try those out.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

2malts4me said:


> Sorry, but I still don't get the yelling in her face. I'm not a dog trainer, but I don't see the usefullness of getting down in a dog's face and yelling at them unless you want a fearful dog. Must make for a wonderful bonding experience and such a pleasant walk for you and your dog.


My dog is affectionate, loving, and very well behaved...we spend a lot of time together and do all sorts of stuff together. 

But sometimes she gets this idea in her head that she doesn't have to listen, and she has to be reminded that this "isn't a democracy"...and no, she can't plunge head first into the middle of the street, or grab a mouthful of cat crap, or chase a squirrel towards a busy intersection, or jump on a stranger. 

And when a stern "No!" doesn't work she needs a harsher correction. That does not destroy our bond, in fact it makes it stronger because it reinforces that I am top dog. 

She gets plenty of positive reinforcement and I spoil the crap out of her with affection and treats the other 98% of the time when she's doing what she's supposed to do.



Dogstar said:


> So basically, you're going to intimidate the dog into being completely passive?


No, I am going to "intimidate" (your words, I dont fully agree but close enough) my dog into not eating a mouthful of cat crap or jumping on the table and grabbing my dinner.


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## 2malts4me (Aug 23, 2008)

I guess it's the 2% of the time that I'm having difficulties with. I guess once you're finished with your "stern 'No!'" that doesn't work I'm picturing you as a screaming lunatic yanking on your dog's collar while you are screaming into her face. Not a pretty picture. Maybe I'm just reading your posts wrong or whatever.... Argh! It's late - I give up. Have a nice night!



wizer said:


> My dog is affectionate, loving, and very well behaved...we spend a lot of time together and do all sorts of stuff together.
> 
> But sometimes she gets this idea in her head that she doesn't have to listen, and she has to be reminded that this "isn't a democracy"...and no, she can't plunge head first into the middle of the street, or grab a mouthful of cat crap, or chase a squirrel towards a busy intersection, or jump on a stranger.
> 
> ...


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

2malts4me said:


> I guess it's the 2% of the time that I'm having difficulties with. I guess once you're finished with your "stern 'No!'" that doesn't work I'm picturing you as a screaming lunatic yanking on your dog's collar while you are screaming into her face. Not a pretty picture. Maybe I'm just reading your posts wrong or whatever.... Argh! It's late - I give up. Have a nice night!


The stern "No!" is used rarely..maybe 3x a week, mostly when she goes after a stranger to jump on them or won't release something she has picked up during a walk..and it's brief..only until she releases it or gives up on chasing the person. 

But earlier tonight for example, everytime I said "No!" and then let her go (on leash) she kept going running back towards the neighbor to jump on him. So I repeated it another 2 or 3x until she gave up. Then we proceeded on our walk as usual.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Yikes.  If I found myself having to scruff and yell in my seven dogs' faces over silly things like counter surfing, jumping up or getting excited over people approximately 21 times a week I would have to seriously reexamine my training protocol!


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Nick88, I think your smart enough to not listen to advice that is obviously wrong.
It's good your looking for a nice way to show your dog when he is wrong, getting in his face could get you bitten.

Getting in your dogs face, scruffing them, etc..does weaken the bond between leader and follower. It makes you look very out of control, and dogs dont want to follow an out of control leader. Please do not get the idea that you need to be alpha over your dog. It's not like he's trying to control your world, he is simply just not trained, and that's easy to fix.

Dogstar has giving you very good advice 

Pamperedpups has also made a good point, if your method is not working, try another method! Don't just keep sticking with the same thing if your not seeing results after a week or two of constant training.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Getting in your dogs face, scruffing them, etc..does weaken the bond between leader and follower. It makes you look very out of control, and dogs dont want to follow an out of control leader. Please do not get the idea that you need to be alpha over your dog. It's not like he's trying to control your world, he is simply just not trained, and that's easy to fix.


Getting in your dogs face shows your dog that you are not going to tolerate certain behaviors. 

If you take Peppers advice and simply verbally correct your dog, when your dog is obviously not listening to you..will get you absolutely nowhere. 

Sometimes you need to be stern and even mildly physical such as holding the dog by the collar or physically removing them from the situation, such as wolves do in the wild to their less dominent pack members.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Dogs are not wolves, and they do not act like wolves.

When a pack of dogs pack up, they do not have a real hierarchy. There is sort of a top dog, and the other just seem to follow along. Alpha wolves demand respect, but they do not bully other wolves to get it. The other wolves just give it up freely. In a pack of feral dogs there really is no pack order.

And I'm not making it up, if you want to read the book I'll show it to you.

The reason dogs are different is because we have domesticated them. We have made it so there really is no reason for alpha human and subordinate dog. We have just made it so we show our dogs what to do in leadership form. through motivation with treats or toys, and they do it.

The only reason they would not do it, is if they are going through a teenage rebellion phase which usually you can still get them to do what you want, just need a little bit of patience, and if they are UN-trained and it is just confusion to them.

And in all reality, most dogs don't even need a verbal correction.
If my dog does something wrong that I have taught her is wrong, then I obviously didn't teach her that it is wrong well enough. If she is doing something wrong, that she doesn't KNOW is wrong, I just show her what to do through positive training.

Chasing squirrels, I have corrected her for it, but she is a terrier. She has a high prey drive, and the best I've been able to accomplish so far is getting her to sit by my side when there are squirrels, but if one were to run by, it is instinct to chase it, but I have trained her to have a good recall, so she may jump after it, but a quick Hey, stops her in her tracks and she runs back. I never yelled in her face or scruffed her. I don't get angry. There's just no need for it.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

If I had to scream in my dogs' faces 3 times a week then something would definitely be wrong with that picture. That's a LOT of screaming to be doing.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Dogs are not wolves, and they do not act like wolves.


There's a little bit of wolf in every dog. 

That's the basis for things such as crate training (the dog won't soil their den), and neutering a dog so their mating and wandering instincts dont over ride their training, and teaching the dog to respect you as the alpha male of his hybrid human/dog pack.



Cheetah said:


> If I had to scream in my dogs' faces 3 times a week then something would definitely be wrong with that picture. That's a LOT of screaming to be doing.


I realize it's not nearly that much. 

The last time I screamed in her face was when she refused to release the mouthful of cat crap...and I was pulling the stuff out of her mouth and yelling at her to "DROP IT GODAMIT" while she was trying to chew and swallow the pieces that I couldnt get to fast enough. 

That was over a week ago and when I took her past the cat crap pile the next day she gave a quick sniff at it and kept going. 

I agree that 3x a week of screaming is way too much. I reserve it for the big problems, which also include her very bad habit of lunging at people (to playfully jump on them) when we go for walks.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Dogs like cat crap oh well.

Do a better job of training your dog to drop it and leave it.

My dog could pick up the yummiest brownie off the floor and if I said drop it in my regular tone of voice, that brownie would be on the floor. Actually, I just have to say leave it and now she knows not to pick up anything I drop on the floor. 

Just because there is a little bit of wolf in every dog does not mean they act or think like wolves.

Dogs are naturally clean animals, well except when they roll in things, but they are not going to soil their bed, just because it is their bed.

Many animals do this, leopard gecko's usually only go in one corner of their tank, and they..are not related to wolves.

And excuse me, but I know plenty of un altered male dogs that can control themselves and not wander and are perfectly trained.

Most giant breeds of dogs should never be neutered or at least not until they are over the age of 2 or 3, does that mean they are less trainable and more apt to wander? No.

Dogs do not think of you as ALPHA! When a dominant wolf approaches in the vicinity of lesser wolves, they immediately show passive signs.

When I walk into the room where my dog is, she instantly does not roll over, or flatten her ears, or show me in any way that she sees me as Alpha and must obey and bow down to my dominant authority.

She knows I am her leader, she looks to me for guidance in sticky situations. She shows me when she is afraid, and it is my job to take her away from that situation, or show her that there is nothing to be afraid of.

She looks at me with excitement when training sessions start, and listens to me in public.

And in no way have I ever, ever, scruffed her, screamed in her face, Told her NNOO!!!! Or done any of that. To a dog, really they are just going to see some crazy screaming person in their face. Not that your screaming because they did something..."wrong"


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Dogs like cat crap oh well.
> 
> Do a better job of training your dog to drop it and leave it.
> 
> My dog could pick up the yummiest brownie off the floor and if I said drop it in my regular tone of voice, that brownie would be on the floor.


Your dog is more submissive and not as stubborn as my dog so you don't need to be so forceful. For the most part my dog will drop 95% of things she picks up on the "Drop it" command, but sometimes she doesn't such as with cat crap, and it's not "oh well they like cat crap", that's just ridiculous for you to say. Its a way for dogs to get parasites and get very sick, and sometimes it's necessary to intervene in a more forceful way to overcome the dog's unwillingness to accept training over instinctive behavior.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

hahahaha no!

I just trained her not too! It's not that hard, I just used treats to teach her leave it and drop it. She's not really submissive, it's just a command she knows. Same with fetch, I say drop it, she drops her toy so I can throw it again.

Yeah, a lot of dogs like cat crap, thats why most people put litter boxes up because it's very hard to resist.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Pepper said:


> Yeah, a lot of dogs like cat crap, thats why most people put litter boxes up because it's very hard to resist.


Exactly. It was not easy to find a place to put our cat's litter box where the dogs couldn't get to it and the cat would still use it, but I finally figured it out. Brains over brawn.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wizer said:


> What you do depends on the submissive/dominence coefficient of your dog. I made up that term so don't bother Googling it.
> 
> If a firm "No!" doesn't stop them, and yelling at them simply causes them to look at you with half interest..then you need to really get in their face, hold them restrained by the collar and scream NOOOO! right in their face. Maybe confinement to quarters (such as a bathroom) for a "timeout" is in order. Your dogs response may vary from one extreme to another depending on their "mode" at the moment, how rewarding the unwanted behavior is, and the history of your interactions in the past.
> 
> Never, ever hit your dog. Not that you were thinking that but someone else might.



This is dangerous advice to offer someone whose dog displays aggressive behaviors. Especially one that appears to be possibly fear aggressive. That's asking to get bit. 


OP. Redirection is a good step...I would continue with that...perhaps even carrying a ball or toy and entice him to play with that as you walk...tug ropes work great...you culd also teach him to carry something in his mouth on command...and thereby stopping the biting behaviors before they start.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> hahahaha no!
> 
> I just trained her not too! It's not that hard, I just used treats to teach her leave it and drop it. She's not really submissive, it's just a command she knows. Same with fetch, I say drop it, she drops her toy so I can throw it again.
> 
> Yeah, a lot of dogs like cat crap, thats why most people put litter boxes up because it's very hard to resist.


Ok, so what would you do in the event that you are walking with your dog, who being less than a year old is not "fully trained" to not pick things up, and she gets a mouthful of cat crap and refuses to give it up through her clenched teeth?

Stand there and say "Bad dog"?. I would be prying open her jaws and pulling out as much as I can while yelling at her to release it. Which is what I did a few weeks back..and like I said she got the idea and hasn't done it since.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

My dog was trained to leave it, drop it, sit, down, stay, roll over, spin, shake, high five, touch, etc...at 10 weeks old. She's only a year old.

Any dog can learn as long as you are calm and patient with them.

We do daily refreshers and training sessions over some of the more complicated commands.

I wouldn't make a fuss, just clap my hands and see if I can get any out, and work on my commands more.

Yelling the command when they don't know it isn't going to make them learn it.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> Ok, so what would you do in the event that you are walking with your dog, who being less than a year old is not "fully trained" to not pick things up, and she gets a mouthful of cat crap and refuses to give it up through her clenched teeth?
> 
> Stand there and say "Bad dog"?. I would be prying open her jaws and pulling out as much as I can while yelling at her to release it. Which is what I did a few weeks back..and like I said she got the idea and hasn't done it since.


Your antics might work on your little dog but please don't recommend it to others here who may have bigger dogs that if you try to pry their mouths open, you will be the one who is sorry.

Also your dog may not do that again but it is still not trained enough because I bet you he's going to do something else you can't control.

A well trained dog with a good "leave it" can sit there and look at the cat crap without going for it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wizer said:


> Ok, so what would you do in the event that you are walking with your dog, who being less than a year old is not "fully trained" to not pick things up, and she gets a mouthful of cat crap and refuses to give it up through her clenched teeth?


Well my dog is turned off by poop in general, it's as if she's offended when we come across it, and a b-line to a safe zone is usually her protocol. How could I blame her. However, and speaking hypothetically, if my dog mouthed something of interest but not of mine, I have in my pocket a small squeaky toy shaped like a donkey...at least that's what it looks like, a donkey. It could be a jackass, but I don't like telling people I carry a jackass in my pocket. They are less offended by a donkey, go figure. Anyway, I've been coveting this donkey, which is no bigger than the palm of my hand, since Elsa was a pup. She'd die to have it for her own, and no poop is worthy of this donkey. 

So what do you do about a dog that's interested in something it shouldn't be? Have available that one thing your dog will stop on a dime for. If it at the very least gets your dog's attention, you've won half the battle. No need to shout or get in the dog's face when there is a better way.

In fact, if another's poop is a HUGE problem, you bet I'm going to gather that poop, put in a box with holes, and generalize/proof behaviors that I want around this...delicacy?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Wizer 
You do realize that in training a dog/dogs you can get yourself into some nasty habits. Look at it this way instead of you making the dog drop something when you scream at her, maybe she is training you to scream when she picks something up. The screaming at dog could just be a habit you have picked up. One thing I have learned while training all the years I have is that bad training habits sneak into a trainer's training attitude/program. They are very devious and every once in a while I have had to catch myself when I do something that is an undesireable act. Just think about it there are I'm sure trainers like myself that like to use where applicable body/hand signals. If you can work a dog with hand signals why then would anybody ever need screaming. If you and I are working dogs before a competent judge for anything utility/Obed./Schutzhund/Birddogs etc Your dog and my dog do the exact same quality of work and I mean exactly the same. You are yelling and/or screaming at your dog and I am using hand/body or low voice commands. Who do you think would win the meet.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

wvasko said:


> You are yelling and/or screaming at your dog and I am using hand/body or low voice commands. Who do you think would win the meet.


The person using hand signals would beat the person who is screaming at their dog during the competition.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

wizer said:


> The person using hand signals would beat the person who is screaming at their dog during the competition.


Ok, now you as a trainer/handler of your dog can institute quieter training methods into the training of your dog as this too can become a habit and how classy is it when you watch somebody work their dogs quietly. You mentioned that you were a dude so I'm assuming you are a young dude. This means you can start a training program today and have plenty of time to change your whole approach. Remember whether training or just daily handling of your dog you use the same quiet approach. It's not enough to train quietly and then when handling dog in the daily home lifestyle to scream at dog. This may not work for you at all, it's the way I train and handle dogs that go through kennel and just an option for you to think about.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Ok, now you as a trainer/handler of your dog can institute quieter training methods into the training of your dog as this too can become a habit and how classy is it when you watch somebody work their dogs quietly. You mentioned that you were a dude so I'm assuming you are a young dude.


Mid 40s. 

I guess I'm young compared to your average nursing home resident.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

Agreed with most - you should NEVER EVER scream at your dog any more than you should hit your dog. A firm NO or LEAVE IT should do it. I have VERY stubborn dogs and they darn well know that "NO" means don't even think about it. If you start very young and are consistent, they don't become obstinate. You have to reinforce NO at first very consistently and, if you do, you should never have to yell at your dog (unless he's about to be hit by a car, which should never happen but that's the only time I might yell!)

Do you have the head banging against a brick wall repeatly to no effect icon here? It looks like it might be very useful for some...   

Ah, here: [url=http://www.clipartof.com][/URL]


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

wizer said:


> Mid 40s.
> 
> I guess I'm young compared to your average nursing home resident.


Well your almost 3 decades younger than me. Then think about the dog training age by years you have spent actually working dogs. You can be older in age and younger in dog training years. The dog training years(10 yrs I thought you said) can be changed and adjusted at any time and should be as needed.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Well your almost 3 decades younger than me. Then think about the dog training age by years you have spent actually working dogs. You can be older in age and younger in dog training years. The dog training years(10 yrs I thought you said) can be changed and adjusted at any time and should be as needed.


How can you "adjust dog training years"?

You can adjust the "quality" of those years by reading, sharing stories with others, trying to keep an open mind to changing how you do things, but you can't change the chronological total of years having owned or trained a dog. 

I feel young now.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well I'm not as good with words as I hope I am with dogs. If I get a 3 yr old dog to train I treat him as a puppy when I start him, not as a 3 yr old dog. I think the same can be done as a trainer getting rid of old habits can mean the birth of new dog training habits. Hence a puppy. Remember this started with the screaming at dog routine. If it were me with habits I wanted to break(I have done this)is keep a daily journal of how many times I end up doing the thing that I want to change or break completely. Then at the end of month one, I check the journal to see how many times I did the bad action and this way I can check my improvement. Think about it tomorrow could be the first day on a new dog training adventure.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pepper said:


> And in all reality, most dogs don't even need a verbal correction.
> If my dog does something wrong that I have taught her is wrong, then I obviously didn't teach her that it is wrong well enough. If she is doing something wrong, that she doesn't KNOW is wrong, I just show her what to do through positive training.


I disagree with this. I don't believe that dogs are always right and if they do something wrong it's always the human's fault. No living thing is perfect and any creature that can make a decision can make the wrong one or take the wrong action - dogs might not have this concept but they make mistakes like anything else. It's why we even have to train them and teach them. If your dog grasped everything on the first try - lucky you. 

Wally needs verbal corrections. They disrupt the behavior he was trying and gets him re-focused on me. Considering he has a tendancy to be scared of things that surprise him, my verbal correction can break the loop and get him to wait for a direction from me on what to do instead of acting in a panic.

Heck, even in positive reinforcement there's the "no reward" marker - which basically is a correction. (No reinforcement, so try it again) 

I don't believe in yelling at dogs, or hitting them, or choking them. I don't use any "alternative" collars or such, but to say they never need verbal correction? Maybe not yours, but Wally does. Even now that he knows what to do, sometimes he makes a choice not to, or is too distracted following a scent to realize where he's going. You can call it "redirection" but to me it's still a correction, just with a prettier sounding name.

In fact, if he is rebelling - then he needs the correction even more, imo. Just an aaaaaaaat, or giving the command in a significantly deeper tone of voice will get him to stop and then I can reinforce what he should be doing. Nothing harsh, still a correction, and he gets a positive after he complies and is doing the right thing.

What's wrong with that?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I said most dogs, and didn't say there was anything wrong with it.

I use only positive training, so no corrections.

Yes my dog basically has grasped everything on the first try because positive training works for me.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Wizer, do you have any idea how confrontational that is to a dog? Grabbing a dog by a collar sets it on edge immediately, and getting straight into its face is one of the last things you should be doing. Do this to a strange dog and I guarantee you will get a negative reaction. Do this to the wrong dog and I guarantee you will get your face eaten off. 

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that everything your dog does that falls beyond "what it should be doing" deserves total intimidation. This isn't true. You need to figure out _why_ your dog is behaving the way he is and address things from there. Grabbing your dog by the collar and yelling at it in its face is not going to solve this problem. It might get you a dog that is aggressive towards strangers when on walks. But it's not ever going to get you a dog that is going to walk past a stranger on a loose leash and give him a casual glance.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> Wizer, do you have any idea how confrontational that is to a dog? Grabbing a dog by a collar sets it on edge immediately, and getting straight into its face is one of the last things you should be doing.


Well, that's one of those things that is very variable depending on the breed and temperment of the dog. My dog is a beagle mix and doesnt have a mean bone in her body. At a year she's still just a big pup and doesn't seem to "take offense" to the "confrontation". Her attitude is more like "yeah, yeah, let me go so I can go chase this person already".

I know it wouldnt be a good idea with a strange or powerful dog but to her, it's not going to get her back up, but I am not saying it's doing any good either.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> *Wizer, do you have any idea how confrontational that is to a dog? *Grabbing a dog by a collar sets it on edge immediately, and getting straight into its face is one of the last things you should be doing. Do this to a strange dog and I guarantee you will get a negative reaction. Do this to the wrong dog and I guarantee you will get your face eaten off.
> 
> You seem to be under the mistaken impression that everything your dog does that falls beyond "what it should be doing" deserves total intimidation. This isn't true. You need to figure out _why_ your dog is behaving the way he is and address things from there. Grabbing your dog by the collar and yelling at it in its face is not going to solve this problem. It might get you a dog that is aggressive towards strangers when on walks. But it's not ever going to get you a dog that is going to walk past a stranger on a loose leash and give him a casual glance.


(good post Rosemary)

not just confrontational...with some dogs....that's a flat out invite to do battle..to others its a threat of serious violence...etc etc..and you won't know which dog will have which response until you do it...you can't tell by looking...


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> Well, that's one of those things that is very variable depending on the breed and temperment of the dog.* My dog is a beagle mix and doesnt have a mean bone in her body. * At a year she's still just a big pup and doesn't seem to "take offense" to the "confrontation". Her attitude is more like "yeah, yeah, let me go so I can go chase this person already".


Biggest mistake you could make. My dogs are both Beagles and I would never, ever scream in their face. EVERY dog has a mean bone in its body. EVERY dog has a line. If you don't think any Labs or Beagles have taken a piece out of someone's face because they were poorly handled, you are sorely mistaken. Just because your dog's breed doesn't have a reputation for aggression does NOT mean you have a right to treat it more harshly than the next dog. There are too many aggressive Golden Retrievers out there because their owners thought they could handle more intimidating techniques since they were "typically very friendly dogs." There are too many fearful and anxiety-ridden Beagles out there because they've been overtly punished just because they'll take it without ripping your nose off.

Plus, so what if you're sure your dog isn't going to bite you for yelling in her face? You're still okay with scaring the bejeezus out of her instead? Way to go.



> I know it wouldnt be a good idea with a strange or powerful dog but to her, it's not going to get her back up, but I am not saying it's doing any good either.


The sort of punishment you're using is rarely effective in any situation, at least not without horrible side-effects. The most professional of negative reinforcement trainers don't grab collars and yell. If you want to use negative reinforcement, fine, but go and LEARN how to use it; it's NOT just about screaming at your dog every time she does something you don't agree with. That, or learn why your dog is behaving the way she is and figure out how to address it -- through gradual counter-conditioning.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> If you want to use negative reinforcement, fine, but go and LEARN how to use it; it's NOT just about screaming at your dog every time she does something you don't agree with. That, or learn why your dog is behaving the way she is and figure out how to address it -- through gradual counter-conditioning.


I know my dog. She won't snap at me, I would bet my life on it. 

And you are generalizing the way I react to this one (or two) behavior(s). This dog is VERY obedient, knows many tricks and listens to me almost all the time, she's even reliable off leash. With of course the exceptions that I have the problem with, but even then she doesn't go far and for long, she always comes back...

It's the lunging at people and running after animals that she is impossibly stubborn about, and I have resorted to the "Harsh negative reinforcement" as another possible means to accomplish what I have not been able to do any other way.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> I know my dog. She won't snap at me, I would bet my life on it.
> 
> And you are generalizing the way I react to this one (or two) behavior(s). This dog is VERY obedient, knows many tricks and listens to me almost all the time, she's even reliable off leash. With of course the exceptions that I have the problem with, but even then she doesn't go far and for long, she always comes back...
> 
> It's the lunging at people and running after animals that she is impossibly stubborn about, and I have resorted to the "Harsh negative reinforcement" as another possible means to accomplish what I have not been able to do any other way.


The "harsh negative reinforcement" can lead to her not listening to you in other areas in the future. If you keep on this path eventually I am pretty sure you will lose your life in a bet at some point. She may be good now but keep it up and things will surely change.

This is why you don't want to keep doing it because you have a good relationship right now but that doesn't mean it will always be the same.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

IMHO, harsh negative reinforcement is only necessary in very drastic circumstances such as running out in traffic, eating something that could KILL the dog, or a behavior that everything else has been tried and finally you try this and see if it works. If it doesn't, you have to move on. Treating dogs harshly WHEN UNNECESSARY makes them much less confident and loving overall. Would you prefer to be corrected in that manner or first be given a gentle but firm correction? If you CONTINUE to do the wrong thing, sure, I'm going to escalate the correction but I ALWAYS start with gentle and firm and that usually works for most dogs IF YOU ARE CONSISTENT.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/wasserman/Glossary/3Tconting.html


> Negative Reinforcer: A negative reinforcer is an aversive event whose removal follows an operant response. The negative reinforcer increases the likelihood of that behavior occurring again under the same circumstances.


I think the term negative reinforcement is being improperly used. The aversion should be applied while the dog is doing something wrong and removed once the dog does the target behavior. The cat poop was long removed from the dog's mouth, and he wasn't being taught drop, so it is not negative reinforcement. It is by definition positive punishment.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

> I know my dog. She won't snap at me, I would bet my life on it.


 And then one day I grabbed her collar to stop her from chasing a car and she snapped at me. (Rose)

Just because a dog has a high tolorence threshold does not mean it cannot be reached. That also doesn't mean that just because a dog can tolorate rough handling and severe corrections that they should be given.

If my dogs start doing something they shouldn't, then they get a warning. "Ah-ah." That is like our "leave it" command. It means "stop what you are doing NOW." Once they pause, they are redirected to another command. "Where's your toy?" "Sit." "Get over here." "Out." "Off". Then they are rewarded when they comply. If they fail to stop the behavior with the "ah-ah", then I will generally add more force to it with a loud noise (stomp of the foot, for instance). If I start moving towards them then they normally stop what they are doing and back off. 
If at any point I have to get physical with my dog, then something is wrong and I need to back up and start over.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> I know my dog. She won't snap at me, I would bet my life on it.


I'm sorry to tell you this, but your dog is an animal. She will respond to her instinctive drives and she will act and react like an animal. There is not a dog out there who will never bite. This is not my opinion, this is fact. Push Lassie one inch too far and she will snap and mean to hurt. A lot of people make the classic mistake of failing to recognise that their pets are animals. They take bones out of their dogs' mouths and allow kids to yank their tails and ears because they believe their dog will tolerate it. If you're going to say you'll never do that -- you already are. You're treating your dog in a way that you know is confrontational and intimidating because you know she will tolerate it.

If you still don't believe that your dog will ever bite you, then fine. Just know this: I think that by intimidating her because you know she won't react is exploiting the trust she has in you. Which, to me, is a horrible thing to do to a dog.



> And you are generalizing the way I react to this one (or two) behavior(s). This dog is VERY obedient, knows many tricks and listens to me almost all the time, she's even reliable off leash. With of course the exceptions that I have the problem with, but even then she doesn't go far and for long, she always comes back...


I've said this to you in another thread: "reliable with exceptions" isn't reliable. That's like saying "she recalls perfectly 100% of the time, except for about 20% of the time."



> It's the lunging at people and running after animals that she is impossibly stubborn about, and I have resorted to the "Harsh negative reinforcement" as another possible means to accomplish what I have not been able to do any other way.


What else have you tried?

I just visited one of your other threads and got the answer to my last question. Love's_Sophie gave you some good advice about what to do on your next walk. I will add some things: when you are on your walk and you see another human coming, you need to first off calm down. Any anxiety or excitement you feel will be sensed by your dog and only add to the problem. Roll your shoulders back and forth if it helps, and take a deep breath.

Then you need to watch your dog's body language carefully. When she hits a certain distance from the approaching person, her ears will likely go up, her brow may furrow, she may freeze in place for a second. THIS is when you need to redirect her by waving a treat in front of her nose or stepping in front of her. If she's started barking and lunging already, you missed your time to redirect. Give her the treat for shifting her focus; you can either keep treating till the person has passed or start walking in the opposite direction (back to where you came from). Over time, if you do this consistently, the distance at which she begins reacting to the stranger will decrease. 

You want to teach your dog that seeing strangers on walks is no big deal. You do NOT want to teach her that seeing strangers means she will get a leash correction, or a shout in the face. Neither do you just want to treat her like crazy every time she sees a stranger, the way you would a dog who was fearful of humans. You just want to make her think "oh, look, a stranger...on we go with our walk."


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> I just visited one of your other threads and got the answer to my last question. Love's_Sophie gave you some good advice about what to do on your next walk. I will add some things: when you are on your walk and you see another human coming, you need to first off calm down. Any anxiety or excitement you feel will be sensed by your dog and only add to the problem. Roll your shoulders back and forth if it helps, and take a deep breath.
> 
> Then you need to watch your dog's body language carefully. When she hits a certain distance from the approaching person, her ears will likely go up, her brow may furrow, she may freeze in place for a second. THIS is when you need to redirect her by waving a treat in front of her nose or stepping in front of her. If she's started barking and lunging already, you missed your time to redirect. Give her the treat for shifting her focus; you can either keep treating till the person has passed or start walking in the opposite direction (back to where you came from). Over time, if you do this consistently, the distance at which she begins reacting to the stranger will decrease.
> 
> You want to teach your dog that seeing strangers on walks is no big deal. You do NOT want to teach her that seeing strangers means she will get a leash correction, or a shout in the face. Neither do you just want to treat her like crazy every time she sees a stranger, the way you would a dog who was fearful of humans. You just want to make her think "oh, look, a stranger...on we go with our walk."


I tried this last night after reading Sophie's suggestion.. I brought treats with me, and when she saw a stranger, and froze in place like you said above, and started to move towards the stranger I got in front of her and offered her a mini bone shaped biscuit. It worked like a charm. She forgot all about the stranger..ate the treat, then we started walking..she looked back towards the stranger, I said "here", she turned towards me and I gave her another half a biscuit, and the stranger and the distraction were history.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

wizer said:


> The stern "No!" is used rarely..maybe 3x a week, mostly when she goes after a stranger to jump on them or won't release something she has picked up during a walk..and it's brief..only until she releases it or gives up on chasing the person.
> 
> But earlier tonight for example, everytime I said "No!" and then let her go (on leash) she kept going running back towards the neighbor to jump on him. So I repeated it another 2 or 3x until she gave up. Then we proceeded on our walk as usual.


Simply saying (or shouting) NO, simply doesn't work (confirmed by your need to use NO repeatedly, and your dog keeps on doing what you are saying NO to. Saying NO is not training, and certainly does not teach your dog anything (except that you are often unpredictable and out of control). Rather than yell at her for doing something you don't want her to do, why not train her to do an alternate behavior instead, and then ask for that behavior. 

I never shout at my dogs, and I don't need to keep repeating a cue. I often don't need to even speak (a raised eyebrow will do). I teach my dogs through training, by using methods they understand, and setting them up to succeed, not to fail. Yelling NO and grabbing their collars wouldn't teach them anything (except that I'm out of control and scary).


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> I never shout at my dogs, and I don't need to keep repeating a cue. I often don't need to even speak (a raised eyebrow will do). I teach my dogs through training, by using methods they understand, and setting them up to succeed, not to fail. Yelling NO and grabbing their collars wouldn't teach them anything (except that I'm out of control and scary).


Well, I understand that, but take what happened this morning for example.

We're out for a walk, she sees a cat..the ears go up, her body stiffens in a forward leaning position and I know she's going to bolt. As instructed, I whip out the treat and get between her and the cat and I say "here" in a friendly but firm tone. It worked yesterday with the stranger but she wanted no part of it while that cat was in sight. She completely ignored me so I simply walked the other direction, the leash went tight, and even though she pulled against it for a minute or two, she quickly gave up and followed me on her way. I did not say anything more than a firm "No", I did no yelling whatsoever.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

That's because you were over threshold. 

A threshold is the point at which your dog is too excited/aroused to listen to you. The brain just plain shuts down all function NOT related to chase/guard/whatever, adreneline starts pumping, etc. (This is metaphorical- I don't know that anyone's done a study like that in dogs, but there's one I've read on cats). You CANNOT achieve anything useful by working over threshold. 

So, how do you work in the precense of a distraction without going over threshold? Increase distance, present a visual barrier so she can hear and smell the distraction but not see it, or work with the distraction behind glass or something (for example? Work on sits and downs in Petsmart in front of the cat room, where she can see stationary cats in cages but not smell or get to them. Do NOT get close to the glass, that stresses them out- but it's a place to start.) 

Then gradually get closer to the distraction. Don't move closer until she's PERFECT at the greater distance from the distraction. Keep your rate of reinforcement high (lots of tiny treats, and don't use biscuits -most dogs will take them but don't think they're anything worth really working for. Use tiny pieces of cheese or lunch meat or baked chicken or freeze-dried liver. Your treats should be TINY- about the size of a lentil or pea- and 1/4 of a cup of those (about 40 treats) is PLENTY for a training session.) and get closer in TINY incriments.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

> A threshold is the point at which your dog is too excited/aroused to listen to you. The brain just plain shuts down all function NOT related to chase/guard/whatever, adreneline starts pumping, etc. (This is metaphorical- I don't know that anyone's done a study like that in dogs, but there's one I've read on cats). You CANNOT achieve anything useful by working over threshold


Dogstar, is this similar to my Ilya being not complying with my command to drop it because he was too excited with the raw bone? I turned on the vac (not to scare him) because the sound usually always gets him to refocus on the vac. Seems interesting theory. I work with children with learning disabilities and sometimes we use a shiny object, a mellow sound, or texture to help them keep their focus on a task.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> Work on sits and downs in Petsmart in front of the cat room, where she can see stationary cats in cages but not smell or get to them. Do NOT get close to the glass, that stresses them out- but it's a place to start.)


That is a freaking excellent idea.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

JustTess said:


> Dogstar, is this similar to my Ilya being not complying with my command to drop it because he was too excited with the raw bone? I turned on the vac (not to scare him) because the sound usually always gets him to refocus on the vac. Seems interesting theory. I work with children with learning disabilities and sometimes we use a shiny object, a mellow sound, or texture to help them keep their focus on a task.


For the first question, yes - you can sometimes bump a dog off a threshold by using something to interrupt it. The problem is that just like everything else, 'over threshold' can have degrees. Based on just the information you gave about Ilya here, I would say that while Ilya WAS 'over threshold' in that he was being asked to follow a command at a level you hadn't proofed for, he wasn't over threshold in the physical/neurological sense- there IS a difference, and you'll find trainers on the internet who use it both ways. It's the difference between asking a kid who has never gone off a diving board to recite his multiplication tables on the way off the 3m board without getting the answers wrong, compared to asking an adult who is clinically phobic of heights to do the same thing. The kid probably can't do it- he's not prepared for that situation. The adult has actual brain changes that are going to make it basically impossible. 

Using a sound to interrupt a behavior is a good way of managing a problem. With a dog who is just misbehaving- and that's what I would qualify Ilya's behavior as- it's a good place to start, but if you find yourself doing it more than once or twice for a 'type' of situation (for example, it sounds like you use this pretty frequently to interrupt various types of his behavior) it's going to get less and less effective as the dog generalizes to 'that sound/stimulus doesn't make anything happen'- and you'll always have to look for novel stimuli. Once your dog has generalized enough different types? You'll have a dog who is AWESOME and nonreactive to any kind of sound, but that makes them difficult to use to manage bad behavior. 

So, if you're only going to use them ONCE per type of behavior (for example, resource guarding), you need to be really pro-active. If you have to use an interruption, do three things. First, manage the problem so it doesn't happen again- for example ,not giving Ilya raw bones EXCEPT if you're holding them and he's chewing, or not giving them at all for now, or keeping him in his crate with them and not letting him out till he's done chewing and taking them away when he's outside peeing. (Avoid the conflict, basically). Second, practice the behavior you want to put in place INSTEAD (in this case leave it or drop it) with loewr value items and work up to higher value items. After you've gotten good with high value items, THEN you can set the situation up casually and see how he responds. 

This sounds like a whole lot of work, I know, but it's one of those things that once you figure out the 'rules' of training positively, which means you do your best to set the dog up to be right FIRST (on the theory that it's 100x easier to teach good habits in the first place then fix 'em later once the dog has gotten used to the bad habits) and you manage him so that he never gets the chance to make mistakes. Once you've got this mindset in place, you'll just sort of get used to doing this stuff without even thinking about it. Yes, this means puppies and new dogs to a household get basically no freedom. That's okay. This means NOT letting your 4 month odl puppy loose just because he seems so well behaved, etc- let your dog EARN the right to have a lot of freedom in the house, and things just go much smoother all around.


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## jesterjigger (Dec 12, 2008)

Please, please, don't let your dog get close to the cats though. I *hate* it when I see dog owners take their dogs over to the cat cages, especially once the dogs start barking at the cats or lunging at the cages. It makes me very angry, because the cats have a hard enough life as it is, and are not there to be a training tool for your dog. Every time I go to Petsmart I see someone taking their dog right up to the cages, though only once have I seen a dog leaping at the cages, but I think taking your dog within a few feet of the cages is too close.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

jesterjigger said:


> Please, please, don't let your dog get close to the cats though. I *hate* it when I see dog owners take their dogs over to the cat cages, especially once the dogs start barking at the cats or lunging at the cages. It makes me very angry, because the cats have a hard enough life as it is, and are not there to be a training tool for your dog. Every time I go to Petsmart I see someone taking their dog right up to the cages, though only once have I seen a dog leaping at the cages, but I think taking your dog within a few feet of the cages is too close.


Yes, that's why I specified "Don't go close." It partially depends on the setup of your petsmart. Some of the stores have the cages in a room behind glass a few feet back from the glass- with those, I think it's fine to let dogs who are under control up to that glass as long as they aren't barking, bouncing, lunging or stressing the cats out. Some have the cages RIGHT UP AGAINST the glass- and that's not fair to the cats.


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## jesterjigger (Dec 12, 2008)

My Petsmart is odd, they have the glassed in room with cages, but they also have more cages along a regular wall, not glassed at all. And of course, those are the cages that people take their dogs to  Those are the ones I'm especially concerned about, I think cats are smart enough to realize there's glass between them and the dogs, I just feel for the others not behind glass.


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