# Miniature cattle dogs?



## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

There's an ACD at work that is incredibly small by ACD standards. She's not much bigger than my roommate's cavalier. So I searched mini cattle dogs on google and found a few breeders. Some better than others.

Does anybody have experience with mini ACDs? Do they still have a lot of drive?

The one I work with is content to be a lap dog. Not exactly what I'm looking for even though she's adorable. I didn't think ACDs were popular enough to become minis like aussies.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I think the difference between mini aussies/australian shepherds and mini ACDs is that a lot of breeders of mini aussies are trying to get back to the original standard size, before dog shows became popular and aussies were bred bigger and flashier purely for the shows. Were ACDs originally smaller than they are today? If not, I wonder what the purpose is of breeding them small? 

Unfortunately, this is probably just a marketing gimmick so that BYBs can cash in on the profits of a novel new "fad" dog, similar to teacup toy breeds and king-sized large breeds


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I think the difference between mini aussies/australian shepherds and mini ACDs is that a lot of breeders of mini aussies are trying to get back to the original standard size, before dog shows became popular and aussies were bred bigger and flashier purely for the shows. Were ACDs originally smaller than they are today? If not, I wonder what the purpose is of breeding them small?
> 
> Unfortunately, this is probably just a marketing gimmick so that BYBs can cash in on the profits of a novel new "fad" dog, similar to teacup toy breeds and king-sized large breeds


I know that aussies were originally smaller but I'm not sure about ACDs. However, a *toy* aussie is hardly what aussie used to be. That's a trend.
A couple of the mini ACD breeders actually had most of the trademarks of a good breeder. Health testing out the wazoo, the whole nine yards. That seems like great lengths to go to for a small wad of cash. To me, at least. I just have a hard time seeing ACDs as ever being trendy. Though the minis were adorable. The toys, not so much.

I'm not really sure why I bothered asking. I couldn't buy a trendy mini dog and feel good about it. 

Still just curious as to whether or not they've got drive.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Tofu_pup said:


> I know that aussies were originally smaller but I'm not sure about ACDs. However, a *toy* aussie is hardly what aussie used to be. That's a trend.
> A couple of the mini ACD breeders actually had most of the trademarks of a good breeder. Health testing out the wazoo, the whole nine yards. That seems like great lengths to go to for a small wad of cash. To me, at least. I just have a hard time seeing ACDs as ever being trendy. Though the minis were adorable. The toys, not so much.
> 
> I'm not really sure why I bothered asking. I couldn't buy a trendy mini dog and feel good about it.
> ...


I think the majority of those "toy" aussies are just aussie/pap or aussie/pomeranian mixes =P Definitely a gimmick.

If you're concerned about whether or not a trend, honestly what I would do is ask what the breeder's purpose is when they breed mini ACDs. Why not send a couple of breeders some emails? Maybe their dogs are actually decent farm dogs and herders?


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I think the majority of those "toy" aussies are just aussie/pap or aussie/pomeranian mixes =P Definitely a gimmick.
> 
> If you're concerned about whether or not a trend, honestly what I would do is ask what the breeder's purpose is when they breed mini ACDs. Why not send a couple of breeders some emails? Maybe their dogs are actually decent farm dogs and herders?


The toy aussies that I saw looked like blue merle paps.
I will be an e-mailing fool when I'm in a position to get a second dog.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Maybe somebody has a herd of very small cows?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Independent George said:


> Maybe somebody has a herd of very small cows?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I think the difference between mini aussies/australian shepherds and mini ACDs is that a lot of breeders of mini aussies are trying to get back to the original standard size, before dog shows became popular and aussies were bred bigger and flashier purely for the shows.


then why not keep the name of "Australian Shepherd" if they are supposed to be the original.


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## railNtrailcowgrl (Jul 24, 2008)

Independent George said:


> Maybe somebody has a herd of very small cows?


Yup what Keechak said 










This is a scale for miniature herefords by the way.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

I can't believe I missed the connection - they're Australian, right? Well, that's where hobbits come from, right?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

In our Agility class there were two "Mini Ausies". One looked just like a small Ausie, the other looked like it was crossed with something else. Both were very high energy and really fast.

I am sure that Regular Australian Shepherds, like any other breed, will sometimes have puppies that end up smaller than standard but I think most of them do it the "quick" way and cross them with something smaller, like Shetland Sheepdogs. I have seen them advertised quite regularly in the paper and on the Internet. Some of them do look purebred, others do not.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Kyllobernese said:


> In our Agility class there were two "Mini Ausies". One looked just like a small Ausie, the other looked like it was crossed with something else. Both were very high energy and really fast.
> 
> *I am sure that Regular Australian Shepherds, like any other breed, will sometimes have puppies that end up smaller than standard* but I think most of them do it the "quick" way and cross them with something smaller, like Shetland Sheepdogs. I have seen them advertised quite regularly in the paper and on the Internet. Some of them do look purebred, others do not.


aussies can't be smaller than standard because there is no standard size for aussies. There is a typical "suggested" range but there is no correct height.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Keechak said:


> then why not keep the name of "Australian Shepherd" if they are supposed to be the original.


I'm not sure, maybe to differentiate between the larger dogs and the smaller ones? It's not like everybody wants to breed back to the original size, a lot of people obviously still like their bigger aussies  I think when people start breeding in different directions of the same breed, it makes sense to want to acknowledge that they're different. For instance, show/feild Springer Spaniels, east/west German Shepherds, standard/mini Poodles. I know that if I set out to buy a Poodle, and I wanted a standard, I'd be pretty dissapointed if I unknowingly ended up with a toy. 

It's just more thorough classification, I guess.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I'm not sure, maybe to differentiate between the larger dogs and the smaller ones? It's not like everybody wants to breed back to the original size, a lot of people obviously still like their bigger aussies  I think when people start breeding in different directions of the same breed, it makes sense to want to acknowledge that they're different. For instance, show/feild Springer Spaniels, east/west German Shepherds, standard/mini Poodles. I know that if I set out to buy a Poodle, and I wanted a standard, I'd be pretty dissapointed if I unknowingly ended up with a toy.
> 
> It's just more thorough classification, I guess.


So should we make Standard and Giant Papillons  I know there are quite a few "giants" around here averaging 10-15 pounds


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Keechak said:


> So should we make Standard and Giant Papillons  I know there are quite a few "giants" around here averaging 10-15 pounds


I'll take one.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Independent George said:


> I'll take one.


.........lol


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Tofu_pup said:


> There's an ACD at work that is incredibly small by ACD standards. She's not much bigger than my roommate's cavalier. So I searched mini cattle dogs on google and found a few breeders. Some better than others.
> 
> Does anybody have experience with mini ACDs? Do they still have a lot of drive?
> 
> The one I work with is content to be a lap dog. Not exactly what I'm looking for even though she's adorable. I didn't think ACDs were popular enough to become minis like aussies.


They are not a real breed. Someone's designer creation. There is no registry for them, not a recognized breed. 

Frankly, I am not sure what they are or if something was crossed in to create them. The could have been bred down. But an ACD Bitch can be as small as 17 inches at the withers and a dog 18 inches. I have seen a dog or bitch here or there that did not make the standard. And some lines are smaller than others. 

There is no way to evaluate stock, they cannot be shown in conformation, without a registry (other than possibly Continental Kennel Club) so the opportunity to compete in performance events is limited. You could probably get an ILP from the AKC as an ACD. But the dog must be altered. That would negate proving any potential breeding stock. 

I am not sure what breeders you are looking at but I know of none that are quality breeders. Most commonly they are seen on next day pets, etc. 

There is a breeder in the midwest that advertises both standard and mini ACDs. But the breeder and those dogs are far from quality.


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

I have a mini aussie. He is quick, spunky, and all typical traits & appearance of a standard aussie. AKC does not recognize mini as a size though they are in process of considering it, from what I understand. As a mini owner I can say I chose my breeder based on years of experience, that she isn't trying to breed down to get "toys", she shows her aussies & breeds for temperment then for color/markings/show. We chose a mini aussie as we loved the typical description of temperment & energy of an aussie, felt it was a great choice to go with our eskie's personality & the size is right for us. There is a breeder not too far from us that I think should be shut down, she breeds to get as small as she can get, some are no bigger than the tiniest chihuahua. She breeds simply for size and always has so many available she makes me think of a puppy mill. I think that is wrong.

Mini aussies have been breed down to the 12-14" range over the last 15-20yrs. Most reputable breeders do not try to make them little purse dogs but simply aussies in a small package. I look at it as eskies, schnauzers, poodles...many breeds have mini & standard, it took time to develope & recognize the various sizes, just as it will with the mini aussies.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

luv2byte said:


> I have a mini aussie. He is quick, spunky, and all typical traits & appearance of a standard aussie. AKC does not recognize mini as a size though they are in process of considering it, from what I understand. As a mini owner I can say I chose my breeder based on years of experience, that she isn't trying to breed down to get "toys", she shows her aussies & breeds for temperment then for color/markings/show. We chose a mini aussie as we loved the typical description of temperment & energy of an aussie, felt it was a great choice to go with our eskie's personality & the size is right for us. There is a breeder not too far from us that I think should be shut down, she breeds to get as small as she can get, some are no bigger than the tiniest chihuahua. She breeds simply for size and always has so many available she makes me think of a puppy mill. I think that is wrong.
> 
> Mini aussies have been breed down to the 12-14" range over the last 15-20yrs. Most reputable breeders do not try to make them little purse dogs but simply aussies in a small package. I look at it as eskies, schnauzers, poodles...many breeds have mini & standard, it took time to develope & recognize the various sizes, just as it will with the mini aussies.


the AKC is not considering adding Miniature Australian Shepherds. and Miniature Australian Shepherd breeders are NOT pushing for AKC recognition. However the North American Shepherd breeders (a branch of mini aussie breeders) ARE activly seeking AKC recognition. 

It will never be possible for the Miniature Australian Shepherd to be recognized by a major kennel club as a variety of Australian Shepherd UNLESS the breed clubs for the Australian Shepherd agree to Set a Hight standard for their breed and agree to recognize size varieties. As it is right now the Australian Shepherd breed standard is worded so that aussies can be bred without a care to size. As long as they can still physically do the work they were bred to do.


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

From http://www.namascusa.com/
"The NAMASCUSA Board and the appointed AKC Committee are currently in negotiations with AKC/FSS for the recognition of the Mini Aussie"

Mini North American Shepherd is the same as Mini Australian Shepherd are the same canine. I know the Australian Shepherd org is not in favor of mini's & have argued against allowing them as an AKC standard. I also fully understand that many aussie owners do not agree with the mini & find it very controversial. I'm ok with that. We chose our guy for his size and then from there the other things we wanted in a pup. Since we do not show or compete with our dogs a title of "AKC" was not important to us for either of our dogs. 

Where we take our dogs to daycare is a groomer who is an aussie breeder & big in conformation - she calls the mini's "wannabe's". I think its funny & don't find it offensive. I understand everyone has a preference & those that show their dogs do not like their breed standard being compromised, they have far too much invested in to their breed to have some folks come in & turn things upside down.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Nargle said:


> I think the difference between mini aussies/australian shepherds and mini ACDs is that a lot of breeders of mini aussies are trying to get back to the original standard size, before dog shows became popular and aussies were bred bigger and flashier purely for the shows. Were ACDs originally smaller than they are today? If not, I wonder what the purpose is of breeding them small?
> 
> Unfortunately, this is probably just a marketing gimmick so that BYBs can cash in on the profits of a novel new "fad" dog, similar to teacup toy breeds and king-sized large breeds


Hmm I didn't realize aussies had gotten bigger, mine from 30-40 years ago seemed to be about the same size as Keechak's from what I can see in pictures and from my memory. I would guess about 30-35 lbs or so.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

This is news to me, and a HUGE shocker that USASA is actually contemplating changing the breed standard to allow for size varieties. I don't think this is a bad thing as long as the size variations are allowed to interbreed. I DON'T want to see people breeding for size as an important factor. I want breeders to be choosing studs based on their structure and instinct and not on their size (size should only be considered a factor in the safty of the dam) If a 15" Dog is a CH and WTCH with excellent health clearances there is no reason he shouldn't be mated to a complementing bitch thats 21" This is where most "mini" breeders fail they wont consider a bigger bitch of otherwise ideal quality JUST because she's bigger, I relize it's also an issue with some Australian Shepherd show breeders too not choosing a smaller Dog just because he's smaller.


Kechara is 18.5 inches 32 pounds
Hawkeye is 21.5 inches 48 pounds (one of Hawkeyes' litter sister is 17.5 inches 30 pounds)
Jack is 20.5 inches 53 pounds (he's not in top shape in his younger days he weighed about 47)

I have not yet been able to load the PDF about the FSS talks but the USASA does still have this on their website which is now starting to confuse me.



> The United States Australian Shepherd Association
> 
> Statement concerning the Miniature Australian Shepherd, and the Toy Australian Shepherd.
> 
> ...


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Keechak said:


> Kechara is 18.5 inches 32 pounds
> Hawkeye is 21.5 inches 48 pounds (one of Hawkeyes' litter sister is 17.5 inches 30 pounds)
> Jack is 20.5 inches 53 pounds (he's not in top shape in his younger days he weighed about 47)


Mine was a female, I guess a little heavier then Kechara, her facial build was abut between Kechara and Jack, with coloring and coat that looked a lot like Jacks, ad four white feet which is where she got the name "boots".


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Keechak said:


> So should we make Standard and Giant Papillons  I know there are quite a few "giants" around here averaging 10-15 pounds


Basil would count as "giant," he's 18 lbs, lol!

Honestly, I'd much rather have "variations" of a breed than have the whole breed start moving in a particular direction I didn't like. That way, if I was a breeder, I could preserve the particular "type." Plus, breed standards are largely up to your own interpretation for the most part.



TxRider said:


> Hmm I didn't realize aussies had gotten bigger, mine from 30-40 years ago seemed to be about the same size as Keechak's from what I can see in pictures and from my memory. I would guess about 30-35 lbs or so.


If I'm not mistaken, didn't dog shows get their biggest burst of popularity around the turn of the 20th century? I've heard that that's when they supposedly started being bred bigger and flashier. I think the Aussies from before then actually looked a lot more like the Pyranean Shepherd, which aren't big at all. Certainly no where near as big as some Aussies I've seen at shows nowadays.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Nargle said:


> If I'm not mistaken, didn't dog shows get their biggest burst of popularity around the turn of the 20th century? I've heard that that's when they supposedly started being bred bigger and flashier. I think the Aussies from before then actually looked a lot more like the Pyranean Shepherd, which aren't big at all. Certainly no where near as big as some Aussies I've seen at shows nowadays.


I don't think aussies were very involved in shows though were they? AKc didn;t recognize them until 1990 or so.

The mini aussie site says this..."Many believe that the original Aussie was selectively bred larger as sheep ranching decreased and cattle ranching increased. Cattle ranchers preferred a larger dog to work the larger stock."

Sounds more reasonable, mine was working dog pup from a working cattle ranch about 1963.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I don't think aussies were very involved in shows though were they? AKc didn;t recognize them until 1990 or so.
> 
> The mini aussie site says this..."Many believe that the original Aussie was selectively bred larger as sheep ranching decreased and cattle ranching increased. Cattle ranchers preferred a larger dog to work the larger stock."
> 
> Sounds more reasonable, mine was working dog pup from a working cattle ranch about 1963.


Studbooks for aussies weren't started untill roughly the 50's and the breed started to become a breed in the 50's with the creation of the National Stockdog Registery founded in 1956 it was the first studbook registery for the australian shepherd and to this day it continues to have an open studbook. Aussies weren't bred for the show ring untill the 60's so any picture of aussies before then are the "Original" foundation dogs. TX Rider if your dog was ASCA or NSDR registered it would have probably been the second generation of the Australian Shepherd breed.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Keechak said:


> So should we make Standard and Giant Papillons  I know there are quite a few "giants" around here averaging 10-15 pounds


Is it bad that I've thought about how feasible that would be? lol

My ideal dog is a 30 lb papillon I've decided.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Is it bad that I've thought about how feasible that would be? lol
> 
> My ideal dog is a 30 lb papillon I've decided.


lol those would be some BIG ears


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Keechak said:


> lol those would be some BIG ears


Ooooh! Flying Papillon! I want one!


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They are not a real breed. Someone's designer creation. There is no registry for them, not a recognized breed.
> 
> Frankly, I am not sure what they are or if something was crossed in to create them. The could have been bred down. But an ACD Bitch can be as small as 17 inches at the withers and a dog 18 inches. I have seen a dog or bitch here or there that did not make the standard. And some lines are smaller than others.
> 
> ...


Thanks. My curiosity has abated.
Is there a name for the smaller lines or do I just have to sift through breeders to find them?


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## Dog-Training-Outlet (Feb 24, 2010)

Very funny! Now that's great, I can see it...a "pocket pup" and a handful of teacup cows which all come in a nice little package for all the wanna be farmers who have no idea what to do with either.


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## BorderCollieLuvr (Feb 23, 2010)

I greatly detest miniature herding breeds. They are bred small simply for city/apartment folk who want the breed but can't have the size. I don't know if any of these dogs can do what they were actually bred for at these small sizes. It just angers me.

I currently live in an apartment and nothing would make me happier then to have my border collies, but I know that is not fair to them. As much as a love them, I would never support the breeding of a "smaller" version of them just so I can fit one in a smaller space.

I find that most of the mini's I found online look a LOT lot papillon mixes as well.

No thank you.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Independent George said:


> I'll take one.


I got one  Actually two. Dude is 10 pounds and Tag is 12 or 13. He's a big'un. There's a papillon in one of the agility classes, he's TINY and FAST but doesn't seem too sturdy. And probably wouldn't be a good choice for someone as clumsy as me trying to run with a dog over obstacles and stuff


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I got one  Actually two. Dude is 10 pounds and Tag is 12 or 13. He's a big'un. There's a papillon in one of the agility classes, he's TINY and FAST but doesn't seem too sturdy. And probably wouldn't be a good choice for someone as clumsy as me trying to run with a dog over obstacles and stuff


Nah I'm thinking of about 30 lbs. What do you think? lol

Btw there are quite a few herding breeds that are naturally that small. Some border collies are not that big at all (My friend has a BC that weighs less than my shelties!) then there are of course pyr sheps and shelties which are around the size of the minis.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Nah I'm thinking of about 30 lbs. What do you think? lol
> 
> Btw there are quite a few herding breeds that are naturally that small. Some border collies are not that big at all (My friend has a BC that weighs less than my shelties!) then there are of course pyr sheps and shelties which are around the size of the minis.


I actually love pomeranians, but don't care fo the size/coat of the current show pom. Two separate times I've been told I will get a pom on X day to foster (and probably fail foster 101, lol), and both times it fell through. The first time, the owner decided to keep the dog, and the second time I called the people 3 or 4 times and they never called me back. I don't know what happened to that little dog.
I've seen BC's range in size from 35 pound females to 60 pound plus males and everything in between. BC's are cool like that


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