# Looking to get a Papillon/Phalene



## Yui (Sep 12, 2009)

Ever since I met my friend's Papillons, I've had an interest in getting one (though I really would love the Phaléne ears specifically, but I like both either way) after looking more into the breed (and dogs in general) of coarse and seeing it's basically the perfect dog for me. However, in Florida, good breeders are few in far between from what I've seen. Is there any breeder you could recommend, where you might have gotten your Papillon/Phaléne or someone you know has? I've looked into Papillon rescues, but they seem to emphasize having a yard which I lack(which I think is okay, since I plan to walk it for at least 30-60 min anyway) and filling out the application is lengthy and would be distressing not to get a particular dog due to them wanting the dog to be raised a certain/their way(which is a shame, since there are two dogs I saw, both Phaléne that I liked a good deal). I often check too see if they're around in the shelters, but to no avail(and if they are there, they disappear in a flash). ]:


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What rescues are you looking at? I know some will waive the yard issue. Might not hurt to ask them if there's a point in applying. 

I'm sure you've checked this out but here's the PCA's breeder list, which is a good start- http://www.papillonclub.org/pcabreederslist.htm

There's a bunch listed in Florida and I've heard good things about several of them. Wildfire and Elmac in particular.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I completely agree with Laurelin, it's probably the best to look at the club registered breeders. Sometimes finding random breeders on ads or newpapers can lead to BYBs with puppies that often have health or temperament problems.

I've heard Elmac papillons are good as well. You might want to try them.


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## Yui (Sep 12, 2009)

Papillon Haven has some nice Papillons that I was interested in...though, all require a yard, other rescues I've seen in the past also wanted the same.

Heh, I've been through the WHOLE list atleast once and the Florida sections a few good times. ^^; I don't really like Elmac's Papillons; I think over the year I've become to picky on what I like in a Papillon. This one is a good example: http://sadpanda.us/images/52428-ATI0NYB.jpg


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I'm pretty sure that's one of Braylor's papillons dogs. If you want one from Braylor why not just contact them?

Even if you get a dog from them though, you can't guarantee that it will look like that... Every dog is unique and liking a picture of one dog and even if that dog was your dog's parent, won't guarantee your dog will even look similar to it.

I'm a little concerned that you want a Papillon so specific in looks instead of temperament, health, etc.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Papillons in the US vary in type a lot. Even within lines you'll see a lot of variation. Other countries have solidified the type a bit more but we've focused more on general soundness and honestly you can tell. American bred paps will often not have the coat and the fringe their foreign counterparts have. They're also just in general slightly 'coarser' looking if that makes sense. This is changing because so many people are importing nowadays but in general it's true. 

The thing about Elmac's that stands out imo is they're on the leading front of health testing which is relatively new to this breed. Elmac's dogs don't look much different to me than the one you posted. Well built and definitely papillon in type. The ones with shorter coats appear to be either bitches or puppies which is normal to have less coat. Their dog Brigadoon is one of the top papillons to show ever. Anyways, obviously if you don't like them then don't buy from them. 

But I honestly think you may be being a tad picky. The most important thing is getting a good companion. Unless you're planning on showing it is likely that the 'perfect' dogs will be kept by the breeder to breed from. 

Check out Pap 911 and PCA rescue trust for other rescues. You may also have to look outside your state.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> I'm pretty sure that's one of Braylor's papillons dogs. If you want one from Braylor why not just contact them?
> 
> Even if you get a dog from them though, you can't guarantee that it will look like that... Every dog is unique and liking a picture of one dog and even if that dog was your dog's parent, won't guarantee your dog will even look similar to it.
> 
> I'm a little concerned that you want a Papillon so specific in looks instead of temperament, health, etc.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I don't *think* that's a Braylor dog, I could be wrong though. I KNOW that dog though and it's driving me crazy I can't place where he's from, lol. I love that the breed is so varying in looks, it's part of the charm.


I think I remember seeing him on the Braylor Papillon Colors page so I assumed. I looked at a lot of red sable dogs a while back because I was planning to get one lol

Scroll to Lint

Edit: Maybe not because I guess they use other breeder's dogs' pics as well?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I think I remember seeing him on the Braylor Papillon Colors page so I assumed. I looked at a lot of red sable dogs a while back because I was planning to get one lol
> 
> Scroll to Lint
> 
> Edit: Maybe not because I guess they use other breeder's dogs' pics as well?


Yeah they do use other breeders' dogs as well. Merlin on that page was handled by my dog's handler and I know he belongs to someone else and was bred by Gail Howard. 

That one may be theirs though, I'm not sure. I didn't see him on their studs/dams page. but he could be a past dog. That link is definitely where I remember him from, though! I use that site a lot.

We found our pap by going to a local AKC show. We watched all the dogs show and picked out our favorite papillons and noticed which breeders had dogs we liked. Our favorite that day was actually a dog that wasn't even showing, she was a spayed pet dog that was competing in rally. We talked to her owner, got her breeder's name and now we have 4 dogs from them. (And one from the Braylors) But be aware none of my dogs look like the dog we liked that day. They're all very different though from the same lines and breeder. They're all beautiful to me too.


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## Yui (Sep 12, 2009)

That picture was the first one that came to mind for what I like in appearence, though I'm more of a red&white fan, but I like that color too, lemon&white is also nice. Health and tempermant are _very_ important, which is why I'm looking for the right breeder in the first place and not buying from some random BYB, so I can have a healthy pap who fits the breed standard or is atleast is perfect to me, since I'm already looking for a healthy dog, the next thing that comes to mind are looks. Also, I'm mostly picky since I want to have the perfect first dog. 

I was noticing that the Papillons in Europe seem to be very different.
Sweden and Finland have some amazing dogs!


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Also keep in mind that even if you have some sort of picture in your head of the perfect dog, I assume you're getting a puppy so they look completely different when full grown.
For example, colors change drastically from puppyhood to their full grown adult coat. A puppy could look like this with a much darker coat, and turn into a beautiful red.









Same dog, full grown









You never know how they're going to turn out since puppies all look pretty alike, even breeders sometimes have difficulties keeping the ones with the look they want as adults. I know many breeders that end up selling pups at 9 or 10 months old because their build wasn't what he/she expected, or the pup grew too tall, etc.

Another example, when I got Nia, I thought she was going to be a very red Pap because her sabling had mostly gone away. Most pups that have sabling start to loose it at 3-4 months old and mine did too. From all the Paps I've seen 95% don't get the sabling back. But somehow mine did grow back! Not sure if it's going to stay or go but either way, you don't know what you're going to get!

Middle one is mine when the sabling was going away.









Compare it to my signature.

Lemon and white dogs are extremely extremely rare, actually I've only seen 1 breeder that has one so if you want to try and find one, it may take months to years to get one.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yui said:


> That picture was the first one that came to mind for what I like in appearence, though I'm more of a red&white fan, but I like that color too, lemon&white is also nice. Health and tempermant are _very_ important, which is why I'm looking for the right breeder in the first place and not buying from some random BYB, so I can have a healthy pap who fits the breed standard or is atleast is perfect to me, since I'm already looking for a healthy dog, the next thing that comes to mind are looks. Also, I'm mostly picky since I want to have the perfect first dog.
> 
> I was noticing that the Papillons in Europe seem to be very different.
> Sweden and Finland have some amazing dogs!


Sweden and Finland are known for having the best papillons in the world type wise. They focused a lot of their breeding on double fringing and refining the breed. You see some of those types in lines in the US thanks to importing but it's no guarantee. No matter where you get your dog from the lines here are diverse and there are benefits of having such diversity too. American papillons are great, we've just focused on different things. What makes the breed is their amazing and unique personality as well as their looks. 

You see dogs of all sorts finishing and all are correct by the standards. I am personally kind of saddened we're losing some of these old American lines to the trendier Japanese and Swedish dogs. In one show though you'll see a ring full of dogs from 4-5 countries. Even in my pack I have dog that is 100% American, one that is mostly American, 2 that are very British (and they look it with their big jug heads lol), and 1 that is 3/4ths Japanese. The Japanese dog is very refined and pretty but I've had two dogs from similar lines with bad health problems and we lost them young. I prefer the American and English dogs by far in that aspect. They seem much healthier.


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## spugs (May 4, 2009)

This is a really interesting thread, i didn't realise that there was so much of a difference between European and American papillons or that the colour of the dog could change that much. My pups a red sable so it will be interesting to see if she stays that colour.
I really like the reds and lemons as well but there never seems to be any pups in that colour for sale there all sable of black and white.

Have you looked on the petfinder site? I went on the other day to look at the paps (even though im in the UK  ) Lots of lovely looking dogs including phalenes!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spugs said:


> This is a really interesting thread, i didn't realise that there was so much of a difference between European and American papillons or that the colour of the dog could change that much. My pups a red sable so it will be interesting to see if she stays that colour.
> I really like the reds and lemons as well but there never seems to be any pups in that colour for sale there all sable of black and white.
> 
> Have you looked on the petfinder site? I went on the other day to look at the paps (even though im in the UK  ) Lots of lovely looking dogs including phalenes!


Sables are so hard to tell what color they'll be. Some lighten up a lot and some darken. I have four red sables and the color varies so much between individuals. And then Mia is a hound tri so no telling how light her head will turn either. Some hounds end up with widow's peaks and some with pure brown heads and black bodies. Mia is the darkest hound tri I've ever seen so I don't know how light she'll turn or if she'll lighten up any at all. 

The differences in apparance in the lines are subtle unless you really start studying papillons. Even then they're just guidelines. The English tend imo to be the stockiest and with very domed heads compared to the others. They tend to shorter, less refined faces (many times more spaniely) and many times smaller ears. American is all over the place, but old American lines that haven't been outcrossed (which are few nowadays) tend to have the smallest ears and the least fringing out of all of them. I see more height to the legs here and a lighter, more athletic build. They have less coat generally and faces aren't as refined. Finnish/Swedish dogs have a lot of coat, amazing fringing. Very similar overall to Japanese dogs. Overall they appear to be a little longer in the body/shorter in the leg and the head type is sometimes more bulky than JKC dogs. The Japanese lines diverged out of mostly Swedish dogs so they're similar. Japanese have the most refined, 'pretty' heads. Long thin muzzles and beautiful expression, boatloads of coat. They're the most exaggerated and typey out there and are what's 'in' right now. 

Most every dog you see specialing is at least half outcrossed to either Swedish/Finnish or Japanese lines. Kennels like Siljans and Connection (Swedish and Finnish) and Queen Bless (Japanese) are being imported like crazy and are really dominating in the ring over the American bred dogs. Used to it seemed the trend was to breed to English imports but you don't see it that often anymore. The one good thing about papillons is even though there are some differences, it's nothing like most breeds and you could import or export a dog to another country and probably win there. Another driving force in the change we're seeing imo was Kirby. Kirby kicked butt wherever he went. He was an incredible dog. He's actually very American bred but still beat foreign dogs on their own soil (as did his famous son, Nemo). He was very refined, lovely structure and lots of fringing and gorgeous head. He's kind of the standard people are trying to breed to nowadays. It's understandable, he is likely the best papillon show dog ever to exist.


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## spugs (May 4, 2009)

My pup has a few japanese champions in her pedigree as well as some well known English lines. She seems quite leggy compared with some paps and shes quite delicatly built. I know what you mean about the smaller ears, your paps all put mine to shame 

Colour wise she has some very light red on her cheeks and above her eyes and the roots of her black hairs are a lot lighter so prehaps she'll end up lighter.

Heres a face pic of her









Shes a pretty pup but I cant imagine that shes show quality as i was led to believe!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spugs said:


> My pup has a few japanese champions in her pedigree as well as some well known English lines. She seems quite leggy compared with some paps and shes quite delicatly built. I know what you mean about the smaller ears, your paps all put mine to shame
> 
> Colour wise she has some very light red on her cheeks and above her eyes and the roots of her black hairs are a lot lighter so prehaps she'll end up lighter.
> 
> ...


She is pretty! Very red looking for her age it makes me wonder if she's going to be a deep red sable. She looks pretty light too but who knows how that will go. Usually they lighten up but Nia for example seems to have lightened then re-darkened, lol. Honestly it's hard to tell at that age if they're show quality or not which is why so many breeders keep pups so long. Her head looks good though imo, her earset is perfect. Not too high and nice and large and rounded. No, they're not as big as Mia's but size isn't everything, set and shape are more important. Lovely expression, I really like her.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

She's cute! We don't see enough of her around here! Actually Pap ears seem smaller when they're younger because there's hardly any fur on it. She does look good for her age, nice ears!

But Summer still has the biggest ears of them all! I've never seen a Pap with bigger ears than her. Too bad you don't have puppy pics of Summer Laurelin, I would've loved to see them. 

The thing is...most pups that show breeders end up having could be 'show quality' as long as they aren't mismarks, too tiny or too big, aren't too shy, etc. But there are better show prospects than others. For example, my breeder had 3 litters around the same time when I picked out Nia, there were 7 pups. All of them were show quality but she picks the best one out of all of them and keeps that one for herself, the rest are sold on spay/neuter contracts if going to pet homes and on a different contract if the person buying the pup tells the breeder they are going to show.

I would say MOST pups from a quality breeder CAN be show quality, it's just not guaranteed how well they will do in a show. They are the expected height, build, type, etc. but really no dog can follow the standard completely exactly...well maybe Kirby can. He was a beautiful dog.

Just out of curiosity, I looked up what lines Nia had. Well it turns out, she's 1/4 Belgian with a few German dogs in her pedigree and a LOT of English dogs(mostly Ringlands) further up in the 4th and 5th generation.

Currently Queen Bless Papillons are doing extremely well in the show ring and most breeders around here(Canada) have at least one QB dog or an offspring of one. But a lot of breeders here have a few German(vom Cavalierchen) dogs as well, where do the German dogs lie in all of this?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> She's cute! We don't see enough of her around here! Actually Pap ears seem smaller when they're younger because there's hardly any fur on it.
> 
> *But Summer still has the biggest ears of them all! I've never seen a Pap with bigger ears than her. Too bad you don't have puppy pics of Summer Laurelin, I would've loved to see them. *
> 
> ...


Oh I know they're HUGE! She has massive ears even for a breed known for it's massive ears. I have never seen another with ears as big as hers.










I do have a puppy picture of her, though! Here she as a pup.










And here's little Rose:


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Oh my gosh the cuteness just made me explode =D Summer's puppy pic looks quite like Nard as a puppy. And Rose is such a little fluffball! LOL is that fringing I see on a tiny pup??? No wonder Rose has such nice fringes. 

Nard is such a pretty dog. He's the first one that I'm tempted to steal from you. Then Mia =) I like high energy little dogs.


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## NJdogluvr (Sep 19, 2009)

Phalene Pap's are adorable. I'd love to get one also....Paps aren't the easiest dogs to find, however. They are adorable, though, both kinds.


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## spugs (May 4, 2009)

wow summer lightened up so much!!! Id love it if roxy ended up the same colour as her  Summers ears are indeed spectacular, shes a beautiful dog.
Roxys has a lot of Glasafon dogs on her sires side and there's a Ringlands dog in there, her dams side isn't as good but there's Ringlands Justice and Bankshill Rough Justice in there way back. I think there all english but she does have a swedish champ, a couple of Japanese champs and a couple of international champs in there as well. Im very new to pedigrees so Im not sure about lines but Ive tried googling some of the names and the glasafon ones in particular seemed to be very good.


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## meghf (Jul 12, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Oh I know they're HUGE! She has massive ears even for a breed known for it's massive ears. I have never seen another with ears as big as hers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wow! It's crazy to me to see that Summer's red started as more of a brown color as a puppy. It's like a guessing game when you get a puppy pap what color they'll end up. So fun! They are such adorable dogs with such adorable personalities. Thanks for all the info in this thread.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Oh my gosh the cuteness just made me explode =D Summer's puppy pic looks quite like Nard as a puppy. And Rose is such a little fluffball! LOL is that fringing I see on a tiny pup??? No wonder Rose has such nice fringes.
> 
> Nard is such a pretty dog. He's the first one that I'm tempted to steal from you. Then Mia =) I like high energy little dogs.


You like the Nard?



















I know, Rose had fringe when she was under 8 weeks old. She has crazy fringe.



> wow summer lightened up so much!!! Id love it if roxy ended up the same colour as her Summers ears are indeed spectacular, shes a beautiful dog.
> Roxys has a lot of Glasafon dogs on her sires side and there's a Ringlands dog in there, her dams side isn't as good but there's Ringlands Justice and Bankshill Rough Justice in there way back. I think there all english but she does have a swedish champ, a couple of Japanese champs and a couple of international champs in there as well. Im very new to pedigrees so Im not sure about lines but Ive tried googling some of the names and the glasafon ones in particular seemed to be very good.


Oh yeah I know both those kennels. Glasafon Connor is in someone of mine's pedigree I believe.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

meghf said:


> Wow! It's crazy to me to see that Summer's red started as more of a brown color as a puppy. It's like a guessing game when you get a puppy pap what color they'll end up. So fun! They are such adorable dogs with such adorable personalities. Thanks for all the info in this thread.


Actually all red dogs are pretty brownish when they're young. Just some turns red, some don't. What's funny is that Nia was a yellowish/very light red puppy I don't think I've seen another very young yellow puppy before.










I adore Nard. He's such a beautiful dog! He looks so mischievous And I want to steal his fringe and stick it on Nia's head lol!



Laurelin said:


> Their breeder's foundation bitch was bred to Daneview Bill Bailey who was imported from England. Beau is literally the reincarnation of him. They look scarily alike.


I just looked him up and wow they do look the same! They have the same rounded muzzle and the very round ears! Wow if I didn't pay more attention I could've sworn they're the same dog...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here's another interesting dog, belongs to a friend of mine and he's named Darwin. Started out as a mismark and he grew out of it.



















And he's Beau as a pup because he feels left out, lol












Michiyo-Fir said:


> I just looked him up and wow they do look the same! They have the same rounded muzzle and the very round ears! Wow if I didn't pay more attention I could've sworn they're the same dog...


Me too and I own Beau! They even both greyed prematurely in the same places. That's Beau's grandaddy and boy does he take after him.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ignoring that Beau isn't groomed up there.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Wow Beau is a beautiful puppy! I just want to squish him! And Darwin is something I've NEVER seen or even heard of before. That is so strange. Outgrew a mismark...is totally new to me but he's a beautiful adult!

Edit: May I ask what you bathe your dogs with? They look so white all the time. I've been using Vellus but I'm not sure why Nia's coat is getting is getting a kind of yellowy cast. I think I need to get some clarifying shampoo and wash her once with it. I think my mom's hands always has some kind of heavy lotion on it and she keeps rubbing it on Nia's coat lol and it's not washing off properly.


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## spugs (May 4, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Oh yeah I know both those kennels. Glasafon Connor is in someone of mine's pedigree I believe.


Glasafon Connor is my dogs great great grandfather Which one of yours is it? His daughter Diquest Fairy Footsteps (!) is my dogs great grand ma


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Wow Beau is a beautiful puppy! I just want to squish him! And Darwin is something I've NEVER seen or even heard of before. That is so strange. Outgrew a mismark...is totally new to me but he's a beautiful adult!
> 
> Edit: May I ask what you bathe your dogs with? They look so white all the time. I've been using Vellus but I'm not sure why Nia's coat is getting is getting a kind of yellowy cast. I think I need to get some clarifying shampoo and wash her once with it. I think my mom's hands always has some kind of heavy lotion on it and she keeps rubbing it on Nia's coat lol and it's not washing off properly.


I just use Earthbath or Buddy Wash generally. I don't use anything fancy at all, they just generally stay pretty white. I see some dogs in the ring that have a yellowy tint to them, my breeder once said it had more to do with diet and chemicals in water but I'm not sure how true it is. At any rate, Buddy Wash smells REALLY good. 

My breeder has a dog with a similar mismark she's hoping will outgrow it. We'll see what happens. 



> Glasafon Connor is my dogs great great grandfather Which one of yours is it? His daughter Diquest Fairy Footsteps (!) is my dogs great grand ma


I looked it up and it's Nard. He's also Nard's great grat grandsire through his son Queen Bless JP Don Darias. 

Here's Nard's sire's pedigree. I love this site.

http://global.papillonpedigrees.org/cgi-bin/geneal.pl?op=tree&index=36383&gens=5&db=Papillon.dbw


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## spugs (May 4, 2009)

Yay Roxy and Nard are related  How does that site work, I ve put in Roxys dad but nothing comes up!


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Wow Nard's pedigree is amazing! And he's already finished his Am Ch.?


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## spugs (May 4, 2009)

Unfortunatly Roxys pedigree is not as good as Nards  Lots of names with no kennel pre fix on her mams side


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Wow Nard's pedigree is amazing! And he's already finished his Am Ch.?


No that's his dad. Nard is er... not even registered yet. His papers got lost so we're trying to deal with that. When my mom passed away it got put on the backburner then we realized the breeder forgot to sign the paperwork. So we'll have to pay a late fee is all, but he'll be shown in a year or two. Paps show better later after they mature some. Beau didn't start showing until he was 2 and it really helped him finish fast over the younger dogs. 



> Yay Roxy and Nard are related How does that site work, I ve put in Roxys dad but nothing comes up!


I put in the kennel name and search that way. Not every dog is listed though which is a problem. Beau's pedigree is about half blank because of that.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Hey guys, sorry to bring this oldddd thread up again but I was doing a search and found this 

I've been MIA for a while, sorry! Been looking for my next Papillon, a show potential one from Europe. I am hoping to get a Swedish dog--love their coats and fringes and we will NEED those genes here in the tropics! Wondering what are you guys' thoughts on the differences today between American/Japanese/Swedish Paps? I find that most European Paps (Germany, Scandinavia) are from Swedish lines so for all intents and purposes I'll just lump em together in the Swedish group.

I've been studying types and pedigrees for months now... really hate English Paps. Their heads are just so... blocky and coarse to me. I really love the elegance (bone/structure) and American heads, but so often they lack fur and fringe...  That will just not do here when it's hot all year round. Cadence has never grown his fur back to the length/thickness that it was in Canada. Now it's just thin and pretty short!

I like some Japanese Paps as well (not Queenbless, though), but they are also mostly from Swedish lines (Silenzio, Zkarabi's, Menine's, etc.) with a smattering of English (mostly Ringlands).

Any thoughts and advice on the different types? It seems to me that American Paps have the most refined structures, but are they also the most sound? I see some Swedish dogs these days who seem stockier (or maybe it's just because they have so much fur?) and are on the larger side.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

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## CJay (Feb 25, 2012)

I would love to see Benji and Summers ears side by side!! Her ears are huge and I think his are as well!! There is a Pap named Simon at the doggy day care he will be going to an the first thing his owner said was "those are some big ears". I was shocked to hear that from a Pap owner but it seems that everyone who see's him says the same thing!!! I haven't seen him around enough puppies to know though!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I would not touch another dog with a very Japanese lineage with a ten foot pole. Call me overly paranoid but after losing two primarily Japanese puppies, I won't do it. If I'm being honest, I find the Swedish dogs too heavily coated and furnished and a lot seem short in the leg. Some are impratically coated and bordering on ridiculous. *The british dogs can be a little blocky and poofy coated almost like a pom.* Not really my type even though I have two of them.
> 
> My next pap will again be heavy on the American lines. But I won't ever get into showing them again. The show ring here tends to favor the Swedish and Japanese style look.


That is interesting to read. The two poofy coats that I have known (they only poofed out after they were spayed) were blocky as well and were predominantly British lined. Makes more sense now.

SOB


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My two poofed out after they were neutered too. Especially my male. Two of ours are pretty heavy on the English lineage and it shows compared to the others. The Japanese one (3/4th) is the best type wise for what they like in the ring, but the health worries me way too much.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I would not touch another dog with a very Japanese lineage with a ten foot pole. Call me overly paranoid but after losing two primarily Japanese puppies, I won't do it. If I'm being honest, I find the Swedish dogs too heavily coated and furnished and a lot seem short in the leg. Some are impratically coated and bordering on ridiculous. The british dogs can be a little blocky and poofy coated almost like a pom. Not really my type even though I have two of them.
> 
> My next pap will again be heavy on the American lines. But I won't ever get into showing them again. The show ring here tends to favor the Swedish and Japanese style look.


I've found several Japanese breeders who have purely Scandinavian lines, so those are the ones that I'm looking into.. I've heard that their early imports from Sweden were before PRA was discovered though, and as far as I know, testing is not mandatory in Japan.

I actually need the crazy heavy coated genes because it's so HOT here that none of the dogs ever grow much coat! Cadence is 99% American line and while his coat was ok in Canada, over here it's just... pretty horrible. So I'm sure that if I got a Swedish dog here, it would have normal coat, LOL. One thing I like about Sweden is that health testing (PRA/PL) are mandatory, so the dogs have health clearances and stuff.

I really dislike the English dogs.. I looked at their breed standard for Papillons and it says "deep stop" in there.. I think that's why their heads are so blocky and Chi-like. Why should Paps have deep stops?? It doesn't make sense to me. So, English dogs are definitely out of my list.. lol. 

Most of the Paps being shown in this region are Japanese dogs. I'd say about 80% are Queenbless, and the remaining 20% are Swedish. Never seen an American line Pap here, ever. I guess you're right about the show judges preferring the Japanese/Swedish looks.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It's not PRA that I would worry about, it's NAD. Then again, pretty much every breeder's lines go back to it in some way now. 

I don't think all English dogs have very blocky heads. I have a friend over there with some really nice phalenes that I like a lot type wise. Beau I like type wise until his coat went poof after being neutered. 

I don't think the show ring is doing anything great for papillons lately. Very recently there is more and more push for a really refined dog with tons of coat and many are too small for my comfort. Too much emphasis on a pretty head type and not enough on health. We're at a real crossroads right now in the breed as far as health goes.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I don't think there is a readily available DNA test for NAD right now, right? (In Cavaliers they have a swab test for Episodic Falling and Curly Coat so it's easy to diagnose)

I have rarely come across and English dog I liked, LOL. I don't even like the Lafford dog who went BOB at Crufts & Westminster.

Is it only in the American rings that they're picking tiny dogs?? I know that in Europe, most of the Paps are on the larger side--10-11inches tall usually.. I have a friend who imported a Pap from Sweden here and he grew pretty big, and he consistently loses to the Japanese Paps in the ring even though he is structurally better. Seems like the European dogs are bigger than Japanese/American dogs. Honestly, I do not want a dog who will weigh 5lbs or less at maturity. That is just WAY too small for me.


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