# prong collars and other "training collars"



## jaspah (Jan 25, 2012)

What are your opinnions on them? I often hear mixed reviews on them from dog lovers, i dont really know what to think of them, i do know they dont look nice... And id feel bad if somebody saw me with a prong collar on my dog because they look painful, but are they? Do they help at all? Is it another dominance training thing?

Opinnions?


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## Purple (Jan 29, 2012)

I have no use for such collars.

I do believe they cause discomfort and that they are detrimental the animal-human bond. That's not to say people who use them have horrible relationships with their dogs, but I do believe it stops them from reaching their true potential in both learning and bonding. *ETA* Good guidance and training will likely trump the need for such training collars anyway.

I think if you must use a training collar, it should be a head halter. 

That's just MO though


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I think if you are already biased because of the way it looks, probably wont be the training tool for you to use. While I think a head halter is great for some dogs you probably should wait until you start training to see what you need.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Depends on the dog, the trainer and the situation. I should put that as an answer for a lot of things.

I train most of the time with a flat collar, or martingale, depending on what we're doing and honestly what I grab on the way sometimes. As Storee progresses with her heeling, I'll likely use a prong on her so that I can get her to adjust quickly without a lot of force on my part to do so. But she's a very high drive, hard headed dog at times, and has had a prong on in the past without even noticing it was on her most of the time! A softer dog might not be able to handle it, but then again wouldn't likely need it either if they'll respond on a flat collar the same way. I don't see my guys being less bonded because of the collar they wear, they just like going to do something.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

It's just a tool. I used one with Hope, she has a high prey drive and used to lunge into her flat collar with all her weight in the air, ending up on her back half the time which wasn't good for me having to play tree with a 75lb dog, or her neck hitting the leash so hard.

She lunged into the prong collar after a squirrel only 2-3 times and has never done it again even on her flat collar, I tossed the prong collar after only a week. Painful? She certainly yelped, but she is the one who applied the pain not me, her choice, her action, her consequence. 

Seemed like the right tool for the job, and now my nieces and others can walk Hope without fear of getting yanked off their feet if I need to leave her with them for a while or have them dog sit.

Did it hurt our bond? Not that I can see. She's the same dog that has to have her nose in everything I do no matter how trivial, and doesn't like having me out of her sight.

I've never had a use for one with any other dog though.


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## jaspah (Jan 25, 2012)

Im just asking opinnions on them, my moms dog buddy used a head halter for a week or so to get him to stop pulling and it worked wonders, iv only used flat collars and harnesses, then again iv only had two dogs, my beagle used a harness, and trillion dosnt go for walks yet, but she has a flat collar. And when we go out to potty she pulls like there is no tomarrow, mainly when we are going back inside she likes to be outside she likes try play with the leafs but thats just not something she can do just yet.
I dont know if she will need a training tool, i just wanted to know what you all think.
I hear a lot of people say its fine because it imitates a mothers bite, to say cut that out! But i dont know how true that is, but maybe it was the intention of the invention of the prong collar.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

jaspah said:


> Im just asking opinnions on them, my moms dog buddy used a head halter for a week or so to get him to stop pulling and it worked wonders, iv only used flat collars and harnesses, then again iv only had two dogs, my beagle used a harness, and trillion dosnt go for walks yet, but she has a flat collar. And when we go out to potty she pulls like there is no tomarrow, mainly when we are going back inside she likes to be outside she likes try play with the leafs but thats just not something she can do just yet.
> I dont know if she will need a training tool, i just wanted to know what you all think.
> I hear a lot of people say its fine because it imitates a mothers bite, to say cut that out! But i dont know how true that is, but maybe it was the intention of the invention of the prong collar.


Nothing to do with a mother's bite, it's simply cause and effect. In Hope's case it would be more like a kid touching a hot stove, you learn not to repeat that behavior real fast.

And there are some kids that no matter what you do will just have to touch that hot stove before they learn. I can relate as I was one of those kids..


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TxRider said:


> Painful? She certainly yelped, but she is the one who applied the pain not me, her choice, her action, her consequence.
> 
> .


Was it her choice for you to choose that tool? I hate it when people set a dog up for an aversive and then say it was the "dog's choice." It's dishonest. If you choose to use an aversive too, at least own it.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I know it's unpopular, but I train my competition heeling in a prong. I can give tiny, well-timed corrections. My dogs don't yelp or squeal. They gladly accept the collar. I use food and reward heavily during this work. I just like the very light corrections.

For daily walks, I use flat collars. I don't ask for the same percision, so I use a different tool. 

Is a prong aversive? Absolutely. Does this hurt my relationship with my dogs? No way. I beleive that an occasional quick correction with a prong is better for my dog and my relationship than a bunch of tugs on a flat collar. If corrections have to be given, give them and move on. No nagging.

I love positive reinforcement. I use it heavily. But when I move into proofing, I use corrections as well.


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## Pibble (Jan 22, 2012)

Training collars (prong, choke, shock, head halter) are using the school of thought of teaching the dog what NOT to do. Do they work for some dogs? Sure. Are there more effective, faster methods that don't involve aversive techniques? I believe there are.

I prefer to teach the dog what TO do. I don't teach "don't pull". I teach - "do walk on a loose leash". I don't teach "don't jump". I teach "keep four feet on the floor".


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Was it her choice for you to choose that tool? I hate it when people set a dog up for an aversive and then say it was the "dog's choice." It's dishonest. If you choose to use an aversive too, at least own it.


Well if she decided to use tool and those were true thoughts about said use of prong collar it's not dishonest. I thought there was a lot of honesty. Admitting the use of tool on DF was as honest as it gets.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Many years ago I used a choker chain as a corrective tool with very slight corrections as I was taught. It was never intended to yank a dog off it's feet and have it dangling in the air while gasping for breath.

Today if I choose to use a choker I do so sparingly and never use it any other way than what I was taught in actual obedience school ... gently.

EDIT: Actually I would rather use a prong if it was really really needed in extreme cases.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I love positive reinforcement. I use it heavily. But when I move into proofing, I use corrections as well.


I no longer can understand the concept of training through the learning process with positive reinforcement, and then setting the dog up in more difficult situations (proofing basically gives the dog the opportunity to fail) and then using aversives when they fail. If my dog doesn't understand what we are doing, I go back and explain it again. It may take longer but it is less confusing for the dog. But then, my relationship with dogs has changed a lot over the years.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Well if she decided to use tool and those were true thoughts about said use of prong collar it's not dishonest. I thought there was a lot of honesty. Admitting the use of tool on DF was as honest as it gets.


Sorry, we choose the equipment, we put it on the dog, we know what we want to teach, and if we fail, it's not the dog's fault. It's the fault of a faulty plan or faulty execution. I'm not speaking so much about the actual use of the collar as I am the statement that it was the dog's choice, so, basically, she deserved what she got. It's a real easy way to not look very closely at what we do.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

My last big dog was a strong puller, way too strong for the kids and wife, and I wasn't really committed enough to teach him better, so we put a prong collar on him. It tempered his pulling strength considerably. Tried it on myself first, the prongs don't hurt, and I don't have heavy fur and folds of extra skin. He matured quickly into one of those stable, unflappable rock-solid dogs (no thanks to me--I couldn't train that if I tried), but he never left the house without it.

My present big dog, it doesn't make enough difference, and I'm not comfortable with fitting it up under the chin, where it needs to be in order to be effective. I've used choke chains but never really got comfortable with them.

Trillion is really too young for a training collar anyway (IMO).


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Pawzk9--

I don't like using aversives, but there are times I am not proficient enough to find a way around them. I know from your other posts that you compete successfully. Can you explain how you teach a competition heel using only positive reinforcement?

I do the whole "reward when right" for a long time before snapping on a leash. But once the leash is on, do you use it to communicate when the dog is out of position or do you just keep rewarding when right? Do you mark "out of position" at all? And if you do, how?

No snarkiness here, just true curiousity. If there is a better way, I want to learn it. In my area, even my agility coach who trained under Terry Arnold and is as positive and fair as anyone I know, uses a prong for obedience. The people who claim to be purely positive, in my area, are not in the obedience ring with their dogs.


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## Pibble (Jan 22, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> Pawzk9--
> 
> I don't like using aversives, but there are times I am not proficient enough to find a way around them. I know from your other posts that you compete successfully. Can you explain how you teach a competition heel using only positive reinforcement?
> 
> ...


The leash is just an accessary. Your dogs behavior should not change depending on whether or not there is a collar or leash attached to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsvNvK8T1z8
First we teach the dog how to pivot. Then we shape that behavior to teach a front and a heel. Using this technique, Paisley has quickly developed a killer heel that everyone in our classes is incredibly jealous of.  No leash or collar (and therefore no corrections) necessary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVVyxTKbXtg
This video shows a bit more on how to shape the behavior into heeling.


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## Purple (Jan 29, 2012)

Hehe, neat...

:clap2:


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## jaspah (Jan 25, 2012)

Im not planning on useing a training collar on trillion at the moment if at all, 
I just like to hear opinnions, one training method i really do not like is the choke chain, as when we got my moms dog buddy he came with a slip on choke chain and all he did was choke himself til he gagaged and gasped for air, we then got him the head halter and he does wonderful on a harness now.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jaspah said:


> Im just asking opinnions on them, my moms dog buddy used a head halter for a week or so to get him to stop pulling and it worked wonders, iv only used flat collars and harnesses, then again iv only had two dogs, my beagle used a harness, and trillion dosnt go for walks yet, but she has a flat collar. And when we go out to potty she pulls like there is no tomarrow, mainly when we are going back inside she likes to be outside she likes try play with the leafs but thats just not something she can do just yet.
> I dont know if she will need a training tool, i just wanted to know what you all think.
> I hear a lot of people say its fine because it imitates a mothers bite, to say cut that out! But i dont know how true that is, but maybe it was the intention of the invention of the prong collar.



If you teach her now to pay attention, and that by your side is where all the good stuff comes from, you may (probably) never need to depend on a special collar to train your dog.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Pawzk9--
> 
> I don't like using aversives, but there are times I am not proficient enough to find a way around them. I know from your other posts that you compete successfully. Can you explain how you teach a competition heel using only positive reinforcement?
> 
> ...


Well, Terry Arnold sort of uses a clicker as well as more traditional techniques. I wouldn't call her a clicker trainer. I do a combination of "Choose to Heel" and 300 pecking heel position, adding one step at a time. I also make the "heel" cue a tertiary reinforcer for looking at me, so the dog loves hearing the cue (which you may poison if you pair it with an aversive). Sometimes things may be more interesting than me - in which case we play Gimme a Break. (which I would possibly describe as negative punishment). I have been pretty successful in competition, but I wouldn't call myself a 200 trainer. If I was, I bet I could figure out perfection without using aversives on my dog. Or it wouldn't be worth it to me just for a sport. My ego is no longer that large.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

I have experimented with the gamut of training 'tools'. I think if you are going to use a tool (flat collar and leash included) you should educate yourself about the proper usage. Even a flat collar can be aversive; it depends on the dog and the handler. 

My thought is that if you are going to use negative punishment, it should be used minimally and with the dogs welfare in mind. I think it is foolish to put a prong collar on oneself as a means of understanding the implication. We are not dogs and cannot comprehend how they perceive the aversive. The best that I can do as an owner is to know my dogs and respond accordingly to meet their needs, keep them safe whilst not causing undue harm. 

Both Boys wear prong collars when we are out all together. Ozzie is reactive and has managed to slip every collar I have tried and attempts have been made whilst wearing a harness. He is 95 pounds and when in harness I can not physically hold him back if he is determined. We tried the Gentle Leader and Ozzie hated it, even after months of careful conditioning. It was my opinion that he found the GL more averse than the prong. Thus, Ozzie always wears a prong collar while on walks. The prong collar is attached to a secondary clip on the leash while the main clip is attached to the flat collar. If he were to lunge, the majority of the force would go into the flat collar and if he were to try to back out, the prong would prevent it. It keeps him safe. 

I will still put a prong on Tyler when we are training competition heeling and when I have him and the other two together on walks. We have managed to get loose leash walking down well enough where I feel comfortable controlling him on a marti. 

Not a tool I want to use forever, but it has been helpful. Not something that I would ever use on a dog like Kaki though. Again, it depends on the dog and it depends on the handler. I for one am not skilled enough to teach the kind of heeling I am looking for on a dog like Tyler without the use of a tool.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I personally will never use a choke collar again. 
I will use a prong in very certain situations (like the great dane I walk, 170lbs of intact male) who will pull to get to a tree to mark in the icy winter and I can't afford to lose and arm or a leg by falling. It is not used to correct, as in I don't jerk it, but it does slow him down when he gets a scent. He's actually much better on the new sensation harness, but he got at it and chewed the buckles up..so until I can replace the buckles, it's back to the prong. 
I only use head halters on dogs who I have to control their mouths. Aggressive dogs, redirectors, reactive dogs etc. I personally think more dogs find them more aversive than almost any other tool. Part of this, of course, is that the owners just go get the darn thing and put it on...conditioning a dog to wear a head halter BEFORE putting it into use is much more effective and much less stressful.

If I had my druthers, all training would be leash free FIRST and then add in the leash and collar so that the dog already has the basics down and neither they, nor the human at the end of the leash, become tug happy.

All tools can be abused, some are just easier to cause damage with. But my personal philosophy is not to use positive punishment or negative reinforcement if at all possible. 

Here's something I read today...

http://www.positivedogs.com/articles/switched_positive.html


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Part of this, of course, is that the owners just go get the darn thing and put it on...conditioning a dog to wear a head halter BEFORE putting it into use is much more effective and much less stressful.


Question Do you think that part of problem is the instructions that come with these head halters, harnesses, etc etc.

I just started using a Dremel grinder on Pierce and it was 1st time for him and me, 50 yrs and never used a grinder. 1st couple days was grinder starting and rubbing over his body and 1st actual grinding was 1 nail, next day finished 1 foot and following day finished all nails. Only problem had was he wanted to play. If I had jumped into grinding without the foreplay I know it would have been a fistfight. 

Start dogs with a prong and you reverse collar so spikes are out and just phase in the prongs later. So many things in training when phased in properly is half the battle won before training starts.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

+two said:


> My thought is that if you are going to use negative punishment, it should be used minimally and with the dogs welfare in mind.


Positive punishment.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I don't like using aversives, but there are times I am not proficient enough to find a way around them. _<snip>_


I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying trainingjunkie, but this particular statement caught me. I've made my foray into the aversive thing....the bulk of it (aside from verbal correction) has been reading about various aversive tools and techniques, trying to understand how they work and find out what the "unintended side effects" might be. We tried a choke chain the other night at obedience, and we were taught to use it gently (the same as Abbylynn mentions). It did make some difference, though the biggest difference prior to that was just having the collar up high (this was all mentioned in another thread actually). We had also tried a pinch collar ages ago (the plastic kind, with the triangles that pinch) once and it made Caeda go bonkers, very reactive to it. No shutting down for this girl, she practically attacked. No prong. We tried a head halter for all of 30 seconds. She had maybe 2 feet of leash and STILL managed to try to bolt. I did NOT like how her neck twisted (garbaged that immediately!).

Anyway, back to why that statement caught me, from what I've read and my few tries at using aversives....I think you need *more* skill to use them correctly than you do to do positive reinforcement....the lack when using positive reinforcement is not skill...its patience. Not criticizing you here....I'm not as patient as I wish I was either! I still believe that some dogs will learn well with a little bit of aversive, so long as it just causes some minor discomfort, not pain, or damaging. That is something which seems to vary from dog to dog. I also strongly believe if any aversives are to be used its not to teach a behaviour, its to refine it, otherwise it would be like beating a 3 year old for doing advanced physics equations wrong. I watched an older Leerburg video explaining how to teach a dog Sit with a prong collar, I didn't watch the rest. 

My lack of skill is a large reason we tried a couple of things and VERY quickly trashed the idea. Our trainer suggested trying the choke chain, showed us how to use it correctly so we gave it a go....not fond of it, I find it "binds" and I can't do a gentle pop properly (and if Caeda REALLY wants something, she'll choke herself to get it before I could even consider a pop). Even with that collar on we're giving her treats all of the time when she is heeling, which she can do wonderfully inside, or in a very familiar area. She is improving, but VERY slowly and I don't owe it to the choke chain. She's really hyper (the trainer's assessment: Crazy lol), so almost every new thing she sees she has to be desensitized to slowly or she rushes at it, no matter what "implement of control" we might put on her. 
Collars can help, but often only treats the "symptom", not the real problem.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

+two said:


> My thought is that if you are going to use negative punishment, it should be used minimally and with the dogs welfare in mind. I think it is foolish to put a prong collar on oneself as a means of understanding the implication. We are not dogs and cannot comprehend how they perceive the aversive. The best that I can do as an owner is to know my dogs and respond accordingly to meet their needs, keep them safe whilst not causing undue harm. .



Umn, behavior nerd time. It's not possible to use a prong collar as negative punishment. It would be positive punishment. Negative punishment is removing the opportunity for something the dog wants to make a behavior less likely. Positive punishment is adding something (frequently an aversive, which a prong is) to make the behavior less likely



+two said:


> Both Boys wear prong collars when we are out all together. Ozzie is reactive and has managed to slip every collar I have tried and attempts have been made whilst wearing a harness. He is 95 pounds and when in harness I can not physically hold him back if he is determined. We tried the Gentle Leader and Ozzie hated it, even after months of careful conditioning. It was my opinion that he found the GL more averse than the prong. Thus, Ozzie always wears a prong collar while on walks. The prong collar is attached to a secondary clip on the leash while the main clip is attached to the flat collar. If he were to lunge, the majority of the force would go into the flat collar and if he were to try to back out, the prong would prevent it. It keeps him safe.
> .


You're aware that most behaviorist do not recommend a prong for a reactive dog? They tend to make dogs more reactive (when they are getting their necks poked while looking at the things they react to) and a large dog can pop one right off if he lunges full force towards something.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Umn, behavior nerd time. It's not possible to use a prong collar as negative punishment. It would be positive punishment. Negative punishment is removing the opportunity for something the dog wants to make a behavior less likely. Positive punishment is adding something (frequently an aversive, which a prong is) to make the behavior less likely


You are correct. I wasn't putting my + and - together correctly. No matter how much I study this stuff, it just doesn't seem to stick. Thanks.




> You're aware that most behaviorist do not recommend a prong for a reactive dog? They tend to make dogs more reactive (when they are getting their necks poked while looking at the things they react to) and a large dog can pop one right off if he lunges full force towards something.


I am aware and have worked with a behaviorist before with Ozzie. I had his leash specially made (I will try to provide pictures) for him, and because he has been able to shake off a prong and slip collars, I decided doubling up the security would be best. We continue to work on 'look at that' on every walk and have gotten much much better. We recently moved to a more urban area with many more triggers around. This has actually helped speed up our work and I am able to walk him with Tyler again. The prong is not a life long solution for Ozzie. It is a tool I am utilizing for his safety. I do not use it for the purpose it was intended with him (that is, to correct), I use it as an extra safety measure. 

I do utilize it as intended with Tyler.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Pibble said:


> The leash is just an accessary. Your dogs behavior should not change depending on whether or not there is a collar or leash attached to him.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsvNvK8T1z8
> First we teach the dog how to pivot. Then we shape that behavior to teach a front and a heel. Using this technique, Paisley has quickly developed a killer heel that everyone in our classes is incredibly jealous of.  No leash or collar (and therefore no corrections) necessary.
> ...


Interestingly enough, that same trainer and center also does tuitorials on the proper use of prongs. I don't use a leash when I do my early training. I add the leash after my dogs are successful without it. But, I do add corrections later in the game to mark when the dog is OUT of position as well as reinforce when the dog is IN position. If there is another good way to mark "out of position" that is not aversive, I am interested in learning about it.

My dog is a very nice heeler and works happily and willingly. In fact, one of our training challenges was eliminating the excited scream from when he moved from front to heel! He loves, loves, loves the work. His tongue curls and jaw bounces when he knows we are about to train.

We learned the retrieve without a correction. Ditto with the jumps. But, for heeling, I still give him the "out of position" feedback. And I haven't ever seen him flinch or fade or worry.

Just because my dog handles it doesn't mean it's a good technique. My dog may be strange or my application may be mild. An example is not proof! But I have a hard time seeing a properly used prong as being inherently damaging.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I had his leash specially made (I will try to provide pictures) for him, and because he has been able to shake off a prong and slip collars, I decided doubling up the security would be best.


I have mentioned before the using of a Marti collar with prong because they both have same type of closure and if prong pops off Marti is still there. In fact that is big reason to use Marti cause it can adjust closure to dogs neck without choking dog. I've had prong collars pop open and felt like world's biggest dummy standing there holding lead with an empty prong collar, using Marti moved me out of the dummy status as I've never had a dog loose since. 

Think of it as a choke collar that never chokes.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I will use a prong to walk Squash under certain circumstances. Like now, when the sidewalks are treacherously icy. LLW is my weakest thing to teach dogs anyway, and although he's pretty good we are far from perfect and he's simply too big and strong for me for walks to be safe in case he has a moment where he breaks to lunge for a squirrel or sniff. Haven't used it with any other dogs before this. 

Honestly my feelings about them have changed over the years. Even if it's a crutch allowing someone to be lazy about training, if it's the difference between a dog getting walked and not getting walked... I'd rather see the dog getting walked. Head halters work fine for some dogs, but man I've seen some dogs crank themselves around on them and a lot of people seem to think it's ok to really yank those things waaaaay harder than they would yank a choke or prong, so they're falling out of my favor a bit. JMO.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Was it her choice for you to choose that tool? I hate it when people set a dog up for an aversive and then say it was the "dog's choice." It's dishonest. If you choose to use an aversive too, at least own it.


It was my choice to use the tool, her choice to lunge into it, and she learned from it. I don't see how I could be any more honest or up front about it.

Could another method work? maybe, maybe not. I certainly tried other methods first, but high prey drive is hard to compete with.

I'd rather have that tool take care of the issue quickly than have her hurt her trachea hitting the end of the collar so hard repeatedly, or snapping her neck around with all her force applied using something like a gentle leader. Were talking about a dog that is launching with everything she had.

Certainly far better than breaking loose and getting hit by a car, or worse.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> I no longer can understand the concept of training through the learning process with positive reinforcement, and then setting the dog up in more difficult situations (proofing basically gives the dog the opportunity to fail) and then using aversives when they fail. If my dog *doesn't understand* what we are doing, I go back and explain it again. It may take longer but it is less confusing for the dog. But then, my relationship with dogs has changed a lot over the years.


I think that it depends on what is expected from a dog. Let's say you need a really reliable recall, many people don't but then again some do for whatever inscrutable purposes. If dog is only ever trained using shaping/luring he will do great but can also choose not to perform a behaviour simply because he can. He was never taught that he actually MUST do it. This is pretty much unlikely to happen with most commands, but it can, especially with difficult stuff like a recall - he may come, but as soon as he's done digging a rabbit den. For some people this is fine but for some a sharper response must be enforced - do you really need this level of obedience or not is a subject for itself. Gradually introducing escape/avoidance system teaches the dog the other part, the part where ignoring a command results in an unpleasant stim. Gradual introduction of corrections is perfectly fair because it gives dog time to learn - suddenly slapping an e collar on a dog and zapping it when not coming IS unfair as he is totally unused to it. Same goes with prong and even flat collar. I love marker training, what's there not to love, but I still want the dog to know what pressure is and how to avoid/stop it. Since negative stim has long lasting effects, behaviour with pressure layered over motivation lasts longer without the need to reinforce it. So doing few downs and sits with a leash is not doing any damage when done properly - this way he quickly learns that sit means sit even on a wet grass.

So, to reiterate, I would train obedience commands with food only, no leash, no corrections, just motivation. Then, I would gradually introduce the leash, separate from obedience commands - dog learns and knows what to do when I drag the leash in different directions (go backwards, forward, left, right, get up, down...). This should be trained so that you can use the leash with two fingers and dog should follow it. There's nothing painful about this, I mark and reward whenever he turns off the pressure. After that, if I need it, I would introduce an e collar in the exact same manner, I'd drag the leash down and start e collar stim, as soon as the dog drops down (which is very quick as he already knows what to do) e collar stim stops, mark and reward. No cues are used and dog never fails during this process. Then, after a while, when you're finally outside with the dog off leash, he will know exactly how to turn off the stim and you gradually increase the challenge - sometimes he'd get stemmed for 10 secs but he'd gradually learn that there's simply no other way of escaping the stem other than obeying. With "regular" training, dog quickly learns that he doesn't have to come if you can't come and catch him, that he doesn't have to stop chasing something etc. he will push all the boundaries but with escape training he quickly learns the opposite of that. When fluent with the behaviour you can stop using the stim and begin using corrections for not coming because he already knows that he must come no matter what. This way he only learns to avoid the correction - he already knows what to do but may still (rarely though) "challenge" the concept which should always results in a correction. After a while he will figure that simply coming on signal/cue is the best thing to do.

*Is this painful to the dog?* Well yeah, escape part may not be but avoidance part is. Correction which is rarely used should be enough for a dog to never want it to happen again at least for a while - he knows what to do, he willingly chooses not to and you show him that this idea results in a bad consequence. Associating a cue with correction helps since you can classically condition NO to a bad stim which then results in almost the same sensation but correction is a correction is a correction. You can also use leash and/or an e collar for simply communicating to the dog, like a shoulder tap or minor leash pop just to get attention. This is rarely enough for most dogs but for example even a softest dog can be trained with an e collar to keep his eyes on you with no pain associated whatsoever.

*Will this make a reactive dog?* From what I've seen, done and learned - not at all. Dogs are naturally capable of sustaining pressure and learn what corrections are very quickly in their lives. You can't do this with a dolphin, cat or a whale, dogs are different, they adapt differently and very effectively learn how to escape or avoid stressful stim. Not all dogs are the same though, some take pressure better than others which should definitely be a factor in deciding whether or not one should use prongs. But I can safely say that modern e collars are safe for pretty much any dog - the level can be set so low that it can even be used as a positive reinforcement marker.

*Is this old school training?* No, because old school training often failed at actually teaching a behaviour. Like humans, dogs can't learn well under pressure. Slower learners got sharper corrections which made matters worse. This means a lot of dogs ended up wrecked. With marker training, you can teach the dog something and then teach pressure separately (and still mark expected outcome) and then merge them together - this way dog does not have to learn about pressure and a behaviour at the *same* time. Plus he learns behaviours really fast, *even if* you use the pressure at the same time during training.

*Are there bad sides?* Of course, window for mistakes is huge. Mistakes made by mis-correcting are hard to fix, they're long lasting. Both prongs and e collars can be massively abused because people are unaware what they're holding in their hands. There are many ways to wreck a dog but these tools make it much easier to do so. A cheap e collar can malfunction - anything man made is imperfect and prone to error. Even a perfectly well planned training program can go wrong. People are imperfect by design and so is their training so if you just use food & motivation you're always on the safe side.

*Did I miss anything?* Most likely yes...

Here I used recall and an e collar as an example because I used it myself, similar process applies to a prong which is a much more rigid tool. I learned most of this from Michael Ellis so if you want real stuff and not my chewed up information I'd recommend him. 

*What's the point of this long boring post?* Only point of this post was to (try and) explain why one would want to use corrections for a marker trained behaviour. Why just sole motivation is sometimes not enough. I completely agree that one should always accept the fact that by doing anything above one is willingly subjecting the dog to an aversive stimuli in attempt to alter a behaviour no matter how much it "benefits" the dog. It is my belief that life is what it is and that it's a fair trade off if I deliver minor annoyance to my dog in hopes of preventing a major consequence of undesired behaviour due to the fact that dog can't naturally and instinctively cope with life in human-infested environment.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Pibble said:


> The leash is just an accessary. Your dogs behavior should not change depending on whether or not there is a collar or leash attached to him.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsvNvK8T1z8
> First we teach the dog how to pivot. Then we shape that behavior to teach a front and a heel. Using this technique, Paisley has quickly developed a killer heel that everyone in our classes is incredibly jealous of.  No leash or collar (and therefore no corrections) necessary.
> ...


That what I used with Hope, I just didn't use a clicker and the book was a flat piece of stone. She does great inside the house though I really need to practice more with her than I do. She isn't coordinated enough backing up and tends to want to hop backward sometimes.

Problem is moving that outside because I just cannot hold her attention well even in the back yard, and forget it outside in the wider world. I think that's going to take me years to achieve if ever. I'll have to make a youtube vid of her sometime, after I clean the house up good..


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## Pibble (Jan 22, 2012)

TxRider said:


> That what I used with Hope, I just didn't use a clicker and the book was a flat piece of stone. She does great inside the house though I really need to practice more with her than I do. She isn't coordinated enough backing up and tends to want to hop backward sometimes.
> 
> Problem is moving that outside because I just cannot hold her attention well even in the back yard, and forget it outside in the wider world. I think that's going to take me years to achieve if ever. I'll have to make a youtube vid of her sometime, after I clean the house up good..


If you're having trouble with distractions, you need a higher value reward and a higher rate of reinforcement. I would also use the premack principle for dogs who are highly distracted by their environment.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

SassyCat said:


> With "regular" training, dog quickly learns that he doesn't have to come if you can't come and catch him, that he doesn't have to stop chasing something etc. he will push all the boundaries but with escape training he quickly learns the opposite of that.


Not all dogs will push boundaries like that with regular training, Kaya for example is eager to please and my approval is as good a reward if not better than a yummy piece of steak. She complies with anything you ask normally, awesome dog really she would make a great dog for rally or agility if she didn't have a quirky noise phobia..

Hope on the other hand is a terminal boundary pusher. If you paint a black line across a white hallway and teach her to stay behind it, she will always put one foot just across it just to test, and if not corrected the other foot will follow within a minute, and then half her body the next. She is this way with pretty much everything. It's actually hilarious sometimes to watch her and keeps me laughing and well amused daily. Kinda like a rebellious teenager, to Kaya's goody two shoes..


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Pibble said:


> If you're having trouble with distractions, you need a higher value reward and a higher rate of reinforcement. I would also use the premack principle for dogs who are highly distracted by their environment.


Not negating what you say here, but I've got some questions about it (honest ones, I'm searching for some ways to improve recall for instance, and calmness in several circumstances). 
First, when a distraction is something that is making the dog go bonkers (say dogs at doggy social, its inside with the excitement or outside where there is nothing...no grey area really possible). I haven't found a SINGLE THING that is actually high enough value to get her attention off of the dogs around here and get her to stop bucking against her harness (we use the harness in these situations since otherwise she chokes herself out!). There are circumstances where there isn't anything high enough value....
That said, you suggest premack, which if I understand correctly would be reward her for being calm by letting her go play (in the doggy social example). We're working on that. BUT with recall.....how do you premack that? Serious question here, no intention to be snarky. I could say "if she comes back she gets to go run again" fine....but if she doesn't....what do I do? IMO, premack is great for some situations, not so much for others, but if you can correct me on that I would be thrilled!!


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## VersaillesGrrl (Jan 29, 2012)

I use a variety of tools with my dogs. My lab was trained with an e-collar and a prong along with positive training methods mixed in one, and now he no longer needs anything besides his flat collar. With my shepherd whom I compete in schutzhund with, I use a prong, a flat collar, a harness, etc during training in different ways. I don't believe that any tool is cruel if used properly. I do believe it is very easy for somebody who does not know how to use the tools properly to hurt the dog or to step backwards in training by using these tools incorrectly. 

My recommendation to anybody looking to venture into using new training tools is to work with a trainer that knows your dogs breed well and uses a variety of methods to train DEPENDING ON YOUR DOG. No training method is one-size-fits-all, IMO.

I do not use chains, as I believe they are ineffective and harm the trachea.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> Anyway, back to why that statement caught me, from what I've read and my few tries at using aversives....I think you need *more* skill to use them correctly than you do to do positive reinforcement....the lack when using positive reinforcement is not skill...its patience. Not criticizing you here....I'm not as patient as I wish I was either! I still believe that some dogs will learn well with a little bit of aversive, so long as it just causes some minor discomfort, not pain, or damaging. That is something which seems to vary from dog to dog. I also strongly believe if any aversives are to be used its not to teach a behaviour, its to refine it, otherwise it would be like beating a 3 year old for doing advanced physics equations wrong. I watched an older Leerburg video explaining how to teach a dog Sit with a prong collar, I didn't watch the rest.
> .


If you can train a dog without aversives, why would it not be equally possible to "refine" that behavior without aversives - possibly with a differential schedule of reinforcement? I tell you, I haven't been three years old for 59 years. I can add, subtract, divide and multiply. I think I may even remember a little bit of algebra and geometry. However, if you punished me for making mistakes in calculus, I could learn to be fearful of math problems. If you're using positive reinforcement in a clickerly way, you are teaching the dog that offering behavior is a good thing. If you suddenly start giving "corrections" (I hate that useless word, but it is the only one that works here) for behaviors that are offered (and have been reinforced in the past, but are no longer quite good enough (for instance, fine tuning competition heeling) that must be very confusing to the dog. You poison the cue, so the dog never quite knows what efforts will be reinforced, and which efforts will be punished. The cue word should be an invitation to earn reward. When it is combined with the opposite, the dog loses the joy of offering that behavior. So, my opinion is that traditional "proofing" is a superstitious behavior. It's how people have always done it, but I think it dogs learn in spite of it instead of because of it. Here's an article that explains it much better than I. http://www.clickertraining.com/node/164


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

I don't want to add to the general discussion about prong collars. The disscussion seems to be more of a philosophical nature. But I do want to mention some specific things.


It's a tool for a specific job. Think of it like a chainsaw - a pretty scary looking device in a certain sense. And if you don't use it right, it can be really dangerous. However, if you use is correctly, it's a big help to get those jobs done. 

I think of its use in two situations: for competition training of dogs that are already well trained, and for large dogs that aren't trained much at all and that are now too much dog for their handler to control. 

In competition training, we use a prong collar as a tool for *certain* exercises, specifically, for the heeling exercises. You can *teach* most dogs to heel on a regular collar- that would mean a flat collar or a martingale type. You can do that with positive reinforcement. Keep at it diligently and you may even do enough to Q a lot of the time in, say, obedience or in rally. And if that is where you want to take it, no problem.

If you want a high score, though, you need to do better than just satisfactory heeling, you need near-perfect heeling. To get to that level, you will need to make small, quick corrections during practice. I don't know of any other tool that one can do that with. But you must use it properly, and you must introduce it in a non-threatening way well before you actually need it.

I do not consider it cruel or abusive as used. It is a tool - just like the flexi, the boxes, the floor marks, or the harnesses that we use in other specific training instances. 

In the second situation, the owner is about ready to give up on the dog. For whatever reason, the situation has been allowed to deteriorate to that point. No use pointing fingers or blaming someone - that dog is gone from that home unless you can show the owner that they can in fact control their dog. You are in effect training the dog AND training the owner. You do show the owner how to use the collar properly. You do emphasize that it is for training and that the goal is for them to have their dog on a regular collar. And you do teach them with all the positive reinforcement techniques as well.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TxRider said:


> It was my choice to use the tool, her choice to lunge into it, and she learned from it. I don't see how I could be any more honest or up front about it.
> 
> Could another method work? maybe, maybe not. I certainly tried other methods first, but high prey drive is hard to compete with.
> 
> ...


And it's your choice if you want to use those tools. If you decide that's the best thing you can think of, that's fine. Just don't put the responsibility on the dog. You are the trainer, and what happens when you put that collar on the dog is strictly your responsibility.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> Interestingly enough, that same trainer and center also does tuitorials on the proper use of prongs. .


I do not believe you can show me a video of Emily Larlham (Kikopup - the first vid) doing a tuitorial on the use of prongs. Tyler is, well, Tyler. He has been aggressively going after one clicker trainer in his town, and gives out really, really incorrect information on clicker training and how it works.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

SassyCat said:


> I think that it depends on what is expected from a dog. Let's say you need a really reliable recall, many people don't but then again some do for whatever inscrutable purposes. If dog is only ever trained using shaping/luring he will do great but can also choose not to perform a behaviour simply because he can. He was never taught that he actually MUST do it. This is pretty much unlikely to happen with most commands, but it can, especially with difficult stuff like a recall - he may come, but as soon as he's done digging a rabbit den. For some people this is fine but for some a sharper response must be enforced - do you really need this level of obedience or not is a subject for itself. Gradually introducing escape/avoidance system teaches the dog the other part, the part where ignoring a command results in an unpleasant stim. Gradual introduction of corrections is perfectly fair because it gives dog time to learn - suddenly slapping an e collar on a dog and zapping it when not coming IS unfair as he is totally unused to it. Same goes with prong and even flat collar. I love marker training, what's there not to love, but I still want the dog to know what pressure is and how to avoid/stop it. Since negative stim has long lasting effects, behaviour with pressure layered over motivation lasts longer without the need to reinforce it. So doing few downs and sits with a leash is not doing any damage when done properly - this way he quickly learns that sit means sit even on a wet grass.
> 
> .


You know, I seem plenty of "aversive trained" dogs who don't recall with a high level of accuracy and speed if the shock collar or long line is not attached. Dogs are great experimentors and learn these things quickly. When you are teaching avoidance, sometimes you get more avoidance than you bargained for. My dogs in the past dozen or so years taught with a clicker have a better real life recall (yes, even off a running bunny - more times than once) than the dogs I trained previously. And, they are more confident and more joyous in the ring too.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> But, I do add corrections later in the game to mark when the dog is OUT of position as well as reinforce when the dog is IN position. If there is another good way to mark "out of position" that is not aversive, I am interested in learning about it.
> 
> .


Only better-than-average efforts get reinforced (differential schedule of reiforcement) Dogs figure it out pretty quickly


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## Pibble (Jan 22, 2012)

Greater Swiss said:


> Not negating what you say here, but I've got some questions about it (honest ones, I'm searching for some ways to improve recall for instance, and calmness in several circumstances).
> First, when a distraction is something that is making the dog go bonkers (say dogs at doggy social, its inside with the excitement or outside where there is nothing...no grey area really possible). I haven't found a SINGLE THING that is actually high enough value to get her attention off of the dogs around here and get her to stop bucking against her harness (we use the harness in these situations since otherwise she chokes herself out!). There are circumstances where there isn't anything high enough value....
> That said, you suggest premack, which if I understand correctly would be reward her for being calm by letting her go play (in the doggy social example). We're working on that. BUT with recall.....how do you premack that? Serious question here, no intention to be snarky. I could say "if she comes back she gets to go run again" fine....but if she doesn't....what do I do? IMO, premack is great for some situations, not so much for others, but if you can correct me on that I would be thrilled!!


If your dog won't take any treat regardless of value, then you are over your dogs threshold. No real training or behavior modification can take place when the dog is over his threshold. Step back and work under your dogs threshold, gradually increasing the dogs threshold until you can work in an environment that is more stimulating.

Until your recall is solid in all situations, your dog should be on a long line. That will prevent any 'what ifs.' 

I would recommend picking up the book "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt. It's geared towards reactive or distracted dogs and keeping their attention and working off leash in an extremely stimulating environment such as an agility or obedience trial. It will be an eye opener for you. 




Poly said:


> If you want a high score, though, you need to do better than just satisfactory heeling, you need near-perfect heeling. To get to that level, you will need to make small, quick corrections during practice. I don't know of any other tool that one can do that with.


Our heeling is basically perfect. We don't need any tools for it.


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## Pibble (Jan 22, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> I do not believe you can show me a video of Emily Larlham (Kikopup - the first vid) doing a tuitorial on the use of prongs. Tyler is, well, Tyler. He has been aggressively going after one clicker trainer in his town, and gives out really, really incorrect information on clicker training and how it works.


I haven't seen any of Tyler's other videos, so I don't know anything about his training style. I was just showing that particular video because I couldn't find one of Emily's that clearly shows how to transition the pivoting exercise to a heel.


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## Snoopy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

Pibble said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsvNvK8T1z8
> First we teach the dog how to pivot. Then we shape that behavior to teach a front and a heel. Using this technique, Paisley has quickly developed a killer heel that everyone in our classes is incredibly jealous of.  No leash or collar (and therefore no corrections) necessary.


Thanks for posting this link, what a great youtube channel! I'm in the process of training my first dog, and with no trainers to help, it's been trial and error as far as which methods to use. I tried one local training class, but didn't like the methods and inflexibility of the trainer, so I quit. I tried a book and found some tips useful, others caused problems. So for now I'm about done with paying money for basic training advice when there is so much available online.

Trouble is, there is so MUCH online that it's hard to sift through it all and find the good stuff. Even on a forum like this, people recommend so many resources. After watching that pivoting video I watched a few more of kikopup's videos, and I really like what I've seen so far - it's so clear and easy to follow. Bookmarked for sure! 

Completely off the topic of prong collars, sorry.

But actually! - to bring it back around to the subject, prong collars are sort of the reason that I quit that training class I mentioned. I made the decision the night that the trainer told me I had to buy my puppy a "training" collar for the next week's class, by which she meant either a prong or a pinch-type of collar. Reason being, "he was pulling too much."

Note, we had just introduced the "heel" command the previous week, she was telling us to use the leash to pull our puppies to the position where we wanted them to be, during class she told me I was using a treat "too much" when I was using it as a lure to keep Snoopy alongside me rather than pulling ahead... and worst of all, we were working on this in a small room with 7 other puppies, all trying to work at the same time within feet of each other. Talk about an environment set up for failure, we had it. Her telling me to buy a training collar was the final straw.

I'm convinced I can teach loose leash walking and even a closer heel with only a flat collar.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

How old is your pup


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Poly said:


> If you want a high score, though, you need to do better than just satisfactory heeling, you need near-perfect heeling. *To get to that level, you will need to make small, quick corrections during practice.*


Absolutely untrue. 
I'm concerned aspiring competitors may read this and mistakenly believe it to be true. It's not. 



Poly said:


> I don't know of any other tool that one can do that with.


 I do: The Human Brain. The most powerful tool of all. 
ie superior intellect, planning, problem solving, alternative approaches, and all that.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> Absolutely untrue.
> I'm concerned aspiring competitors may read this and mistakenly believe it to be true. It's not.


Please explain specifically how you make heeling corrections while training. I'm not being argumentative - I would really like to know what technique you use to correct heeling errors.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Pibble said:


> Our heeling is basically perfect. We don't need any tools for it.


Same query as above - please explain specifically how you make heeling corrections while training. i woulod really like to know how you do it.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Snoopy11 said:


> But actually! - to bring it back around to the subject, prong collars are sort of the reason that I quit that training class I mentioned. I made the decision the night that the trainer told me I had to buy my puppy a "training" collar for the next week's class, by which she meant either a prong or a pinch-type of collar. Reason being, "he was pulling too much."
> 
> Note, we had just introduced the "heel" command the previous week, she was telling us to use the leash to pull our puppies to the position where we wanted them to be, during class she told me I was using a treat "too much" when I was using it as a lure to keep Snoopy alongside me rather than pulling ahead... and worst of all, we were working on this in a small room with 7 other puppies, all trying to work at the same time within feet of each other. Talk about an environment set up for failure, we had it. Her telling me to buy a training collar was the final straw.
> 
> I'm convinced I can teach loose leash walking and even a closer heel with only a flat collar.


And so you can! even better, teach it off leash first. I quit teaching puppy class at a local club because, while I had them doing lovely LLW before they left my class, the next instructor fitted everything in his class with prongs - whether they pulled or not. I got sick of seeming that. I honestly teach puppies a good LLW and leave the competition heeling until their body has grown up a bit. Competition heeling is very precise and requires intense attention and precision by both dog and handler. I don't think most puppies are ready to give you that (and most novice handlers have to work on themselves first) Now if you are looking for pet skills, it doesn't matter as much. But if you call imprecise "heeling" "heel" the imprecision is what you have taught your dog that behavior is. A really good place for information for people training on their own is Sue Ailsby's Training Levels list on Yahoo


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

Snoopy11 said:


> ...
> I'm convinced I can teach loose leash walking and even a closer heel with only a flat collar.


Just a show of support. I have come to the same conclusion. 

I can't really offer advice, though, since I somehow got myself into a situation where I have a very strong 85-lb puppy who at nearly nine months wants very much to pull me into the next county if needed, just to play with that other dog over there. 

How I came to that conclusion is, after trying the prong & slip-collar, I realized that discomfort doesn't divert his attention and in some cases, escalates his excitement. What does get his attention, is getting in front of him both hands on the flat collar, and wait for him to look at me, which he will do eventually, with a look that says, "come ON, what are we waiting for?" Which is my opportunity to have him sit, which he will do albeit in an excited state. At that point, his nose turns on again and I can bring him around with a treat.

All the dogs I ever raised, none were ever quite like this.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Poly said:


> Same query as above - please explain specifically how you make heeling corrections while training. i woulod really like to know how you do it.


You didn't ask me, but. . . . concentrate on the best efforts. The main difference between R+ based training and "balanced" training lies in what the trainer is focussed on. What you focus on, expands. And if you focus on "correcting" the mistakes, there will be plenty of mistakes to correct. If you are focussing on reinforcing the things you really want (and decide what that is ahead, make a plan, keep a journal, work out exactly what you will click for - note, you can't ask for "more" than your dog is able to give you right now, but you can reinforce that and stronger responses, and raise criteria as the dog gets more accurate) you will find plenty of wonderful things to reinforce. If it works to teach, which is where you need your powerful tool, it makes no sense that you have to turn around and do the opposite when you _*think*_ the dog has learned the behavior. I have trained dogs both ways, what is called "balanced" for almost twice as long as I have trained with a clicker. So I won't say that "balanced" doesn't work. It does. But it's really NOT necessary to get an accurate, happy working dog UNLESS you believe it is. If you believe it is, you won't look for better answers.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> Not negating what you say here, but I've got some questions about it (honest ones, I'm searching for some ways to improve recall for instance, and calmness in several circumstances).
> First, when a distraction is something that is making the dog go bonkers (say dogs at doggy social, its inside with the excitement or outside where there is nothing...no grey area really possible). I haven't found a SINGLE THING that is actually high enough value to get her attention off of the dogs around here and get her to stop bucking against her harness (we use the harness in these situations since otherwise she chokes herself out!). There are circumstances where there isn't anything high enough value....
> That said, you suggest premack, which if I understand correctly would be reward her for being calm by letting her go play (in the doggy social example). We're working on that. BUT with recall.....how do you premack that? Serious question here, no intention to be snarky. I could say "if she comes back she gets to go run again" fine....but if she doesn't....what do I do? IMO, premack is great for some situations, not so much for others, but if you can correct me on that I would be thrilled!!


If it's bonkers you've got, you can reasonably expect failure She is over threshold. I would insist that she walk to the building calmly (however long it takes - took one of my students 15 minutes the first time, 5 minutes the next and by the 3rd week she was able to enter with everyone else. I would insist that she walk to the group of dogs calmly, and give me attention before being released to play. If she can't, she is over threshold. Move back and try again. You may end up paying for one session where she doesn't even get to play. That's okay. If you know she won't come from play with other dogs, have her on a line. Take hold of the line and get really close, like in her face, and ask for a sit with focus. Then step back and ask for one step of recall. (no pulling on the line) Release her to play again. Interrupt her this way every few minutes. Don't ask for a recall if you know you are unlikely to get one. That is how dogs learn that it's really okay to ignore your cue. Set yourself (and her) up for success with better planning.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Poly said:


> Please explain specifically how you make heeling corrections while training. I'm not being argumentative - I would really like to know what technique you use to correct heeling errors.


Well, it's often been said that 'the best trainers never GET to the errors'. I believe there's pause for thought within that statement.

But to be a little more specific, at your request, ... (aside from pawz's excellent responses) one way to tweak would be through a more precise delivery of food rewards to intended position. Dogs naturally wanna be in the exact spot where the food comes out.


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## Pibble (Jan 22, 2012)

Poly said:


> Same query as above - please explain specifically how you make heeling corrections while training. i woulod really like to know how you do it.





Pawzk9 said:


> You didn't ask me, but. . . . concentrate on the best efforts. The main difference between R+ based training and "balanced" training lies in what the trainer is focussed on. What you focus on, expands. And if you focus on "correcting" the mistakes, there will be plenty of mistakes to correct. If you are focussing on reinforcing the things you really want (and decide what that is ahead, make a plan, keep a journal, work out exactly what you will click for - note, you can't ask for "more" than your dog is able to give you right now, but you can reinforce that and stronger responses, and raise criteria as the dog gets more accurate) you will find plenty of wonderful things to reinforce. If it works to teach, which is where you need your powerful tool, it makes no sense that you have to turn around and do the opposite when you _*think*_ the dog has learned the behavior. I have trained dogs both ways, what is called "balanced" for almost twice as long as I have trained with a clicker. So I won't say that "balanced" doesn't work. It does. But it's really NOT necessary to get an accurate, happy working dog UNLESS you believe it is. If you believe it is, you won't look for better answers.


Pawzk9 pretty much covered it. I don't use corrections. I reward what I want, and they offer me more of what I want. It's the beauty of positive training. I train competition heeling off leash.


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## Snoopy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

wvasko said:


> How old is your pup


If that was a question for me, Snoopy was 4 months old when we left the class, and he just turned 8 months old today. I should have the loose leash walking down by now, but honestly I slacked off on practicing it, and the progress we were making has become sloppy again. I feel like I need to back up and start fresh on it with a new approach, and drop the word "heel" completely from our normal walks. When I first started I was not aware of the difference between calling LLW "heel" and a competition "heel." Now I get it.

I'm also going to start clicker training. I've never done it before, so I need to plan a bit first, but I understand the concept. I think this will really help Snoopy understand what I want from him a lot faster than how we've trained in the past. I've realized that my verbal markers have been imprecise and I use lures too long on new behaviors.



Pawzk9 said:


> And so you can! even better, teach it off leash first.


Thanks for the encouragement! I should try that. Is it a good idea to be working on both the regular old loose leash walking (on leash) and the more controlled heel (off leash) concurrently, as long as I'm not mixing cues? Or should I wait to start on the tight heel until after we're successfully able to walk on a loose leash?



Pawzk9 said:


> A really good place for information for people training on their own is Sue Ailsby's Training Levels list on Yahoo


I found the Yahoo Group for it. I'm going to read up on the levels and see if I want to join... maybe a more structured set of goals is the kick in the pants I need to quit slacking. Thanks for the tip!

I'm already finding useful tips and discovering things I've been doing wrong by going through this list: http://www.dogmantics.com/Dogmantics/Free_Video_List.html



DustyCrockett said:


> Just a show of support. I have come to the same conclusion.


Awesome 
We also have a hard time with distractions on walks. Snoopy gets very excited at the approach of other people and dogs. I can usually get him to follow me away far enough to where he'll listen to "sit," but that's about as good as it gets right now. It's either walk away completely, or sit but with an anxious focus on the distraction the whole time. Once we are progressing on the LLW again, I need to get a friend or 3 to help me set up some practice encounters outside.

Good luck with your 85(!) lb. puppy... here I thought Snoopy could be a handful, and he's about 30 pounds lighter!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> If that was a question for me, Snoopy was 4 months old when we left the class, and he just turned 8 months old today.


 So at 4 months of age the trainer wanted to put a prong collar on your pup. That is definitely out of line. A young wild woolly pup and an inexperienced owner armed with a prong collar would be a disaster in the making. Good decision on leaving class.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Snoopy11 said:


> I'm also going to start clicker training. I've never done it before, so I need to plan a bit first, but I understand the concept. I think this will really help Snoopy understand what I want from him a lot faster than how we've trained in the past. I've realized that my verbal markers have been imprecise and I use lures too long on new behaviors.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the encouragement! I should try that. Is it a good idea to be working on both the regular old loose leash walking (on leash) and the more controlled heel (off leash) concurrently, as long as I'm not mixing cues? Or should I wait to start on the tight heel until after we're successfully able to walk on a loose leash?
> ...


The thing is, if you teach the dog that it's really rewarding to be at your side, and how to turn off pressure on the leash by moving towards it (also taught with clicker - google "silky leash" loose leash walking becomes a lot easier. You should not need a tight leash (though maybe a "shorter" leash) I generally start in a safe area (hallways are great for this) and just start walking. When dog choses to join me, he gets a click and a treat. If he tries to stay with me he gets more clicks and treats. If he decides something is interesting, no clicks and treats until he gets interested again. He learns that if he can find you off leash, he can find you on leash. Thing is, use yourself for training. Use your leash for management. If your dog is dependent on feeling constant feedback from the leash he doesn't need to look to you for guidance. And face it, sometimes equipment fails (leashes are dropped, collars come undone) If that happens, I want it to be no different for my dog than if he were properly leashed. Because he (and I) aren't totally dependant on that to connect us. If you are on the Training Levels Yahoo group, check out the recent conversation on "Lazy Leash" especially the posts from Sue Eh (that is Sue Ailsby) herself.)


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## PinkAlphaPaws (Feb 4, 2012)

I was taught by an experience trainer that a prong collar is an attention getting tool. As if to say, "hey look at me!" when they are wondering off to the side to sniff something or pulling ahead of you. A quick snap to the side helps them to refocus on what they are supposed to be doing. It is not intended to be used to inflict pain; it's a training tool not a weapon. (Although when seeing it for the first time, it does look pretty gnarly.) I think they are a great tool for large & strong breeds primarily to to teach them to walk politely on a loose leash. I only had to use it for a little while and now my Great Pyrenees will stay at my left side with his shoulder touching my leg where ever I go on or off leash.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> If it's bonkers you've got, you can reasonably expect failure She is over threshold. _<snip>_


You're exactly right Pawz, it is a big issue of threshold, we're working on it. We don't demand all the way to the building and to play completely calmly, but asking more towards that goal each week. The trainer sees the issue now (previously I think she thought Caeda had no training at all), and she is helping us with it. I might sign up for a second round of the same class, simply for the working around dogs and humans.

Back to the topic....Its been going through my mind a lot lately about the training collars. In principle, I do see them as good training tools, that can work great for some dogs (and handlers). Unintended consequences are the biggest danger I see, and not just "destroying the bond". SURE any of these collars can get your dog walking next to you calmly. But why are they doing it?
Caeda (as my best and only good example) is a VERY exuberant and willfull dog. I love that part of her despite the challenges it poses. I don't mind using a training collar on her to help handle her so long as it isn't causing significant pain or especially damage. My worry is that it would "break" her, destroy that exuberance, that unfortunately causes her to bolt after what she wants when on leash in new places. I don't want her bolting, I don't want her "broken" and I don't want her scared. A tough call since the trainer did show us that the choke collar made a fairly immediate difference. 

For us, the best place to walk her is up the right-of-way beside the highway, which I consider quite risky. If/when Caeda gets calm on the leash, and she walks there with me calmly I might put a prong collar on her then, with the hope that it never tightens on her neck, but its there just in case the unforeseen happens.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

PinkAlphaPaws said:


> I was taught by an experience trainer that a prong collar is an attention getting tool. As if to say, "hey look at me!" when they are wondering off to the side to sniff something or pulling ahead of you. A quick snap to the side helps them to refocus on what they are supposed to be doing. It is not intended to be used to inflict pain; it's a training tool not a weapon. (Although when seeing it for the first time, it does look pretty gnarly.) I think they are a great tool for large & strong breeds primarily to to teach them to walk politely on a loose leash. I only had to use it for a little while and now my Great Pyrenees will stay at my left side with his shoulder touching my leg where ever I go on or off leash.


If you lie to yourself about what a tool does, you are being dishonest to your dog, and being a trainer who uses things they don't understand (or don't want to understand). A prong collar works because it is uncomfortable enough that your dog will work to avoid it. If you are okay with that, you are okay with that. But it is an aversive, not just an "attention getting tool." Your trainer lied to you.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> <snip>
> Anyway, back to why that statement caught me, from what I've read and my few tries at using aversives....I think you need *more* skill to use them correctly than you do to do positive reinforcement....the lack when using positive reinforcement is not skill...its patience. <snip>


To a large degree you're right ... but then there are those of us that just aren't coordinated and "fluent" enough to get the timing right ... no matter the level of patience. I usually have no problems to see exactly when I need to reinforce a behavior, but I often have a problem to click the darn clicker at the exact time I need to. 



Poly said:


> Same query as above - please explain specifically how you make heeling corrections while training. i woulod really like to know how you do it.


My girl is a tad too far forward, but have an absolutely awesome focus on my face. Because that's what gave all the goodies. Some times the ball came flying and sometimes a treat. She had a phenomenal natural focus as a tiny pup, but I also have reinforced it with awesome timing ... without really knowing at first. LOL 
The reason she forges, or hang a tad to far forward, is that I've "put" her there ... There I can see her and I've trained alone so much that I've not had enough feedback on the heeling, from my position it looks like she's in a perfect heel. We're working in Utility now and my first goal is to get the elusive third leg ... and THEN I'm going for a 200 score. I've already re-worked her signal sit and down to not include a couple of steps forward, there will be more 'polishing' work, which is the MOST fun according to Miss Mandy. LOL



Pawzk9 said:


> The thing is, if you teach the dog that it's really rewarding to be at your side,<snip>


When I started to work on healing I was told that it HAD to be taught with leash pops and preferable a prong collar, but a slip collar might work on some smaller dogs. There were no other way. So ... Once a week when I came to class I put the prong collar on and in between she ran and played on the 5 acres of the farm where I have no horses.
I didn't even know what I was doing, but I kept calling her ... at least every 10 minutes and sometimes much more frequently, to deliver treats or play or just a pat before she could go off again. Then she started coming up on my side and looking up at me ... to me it looked like she was in 'heal position' and I rewarded it just because it was so dang cute. That has been her favorite place in the world ever since she was little ... to this day she comes into a perfect (well ... a tad too far forward, but you know what I mean) heal ever so often when I'm just walking across the farm. Sometimes I reward, and sometimes I tell her to "go sniff", and sometimes I turn it into a training session. Which is, of course, what she's hoping I will do since training is the most fun game of them all. I've put the prong collar away, it won't touch her neck again ... with next puppy I might put it on as a 'security blanket' and work with 2 leashes when I'm out and about, but I will never again rely on a prong collar for training.
I still call her every so often ... just to let her go again and she has an immediate and totally awesome recall, where she'll turn in the air to come if she's chasing something when I call. No one of my friends who have trained it with aversive methods have that kind of recall on their dogs.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I've been working/walking with a prong with Shammy.


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## Snoopy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

wvasko said:


> So at 4 months of age the trainer wanted to put a prong collar on your pup. That is definitely out of line. A young wild woolly pup and an inexperienced owner armed with a prong collar would be a disaster in the making. Good decision on leaving class.


It seemed ridiculous. There were a lot of red flags about that trainer, small things that bothered me from the very first night, but up until the "heeling" lesson I basically just ignored the parts I didn't agree with... I didn't feel it appropriate to question the trainer in the middle of her own class and cause waves, so I just inwardly assumed the attitude of "what's the worst she can do - fail my puppy? kick me out of class for not listening?" lol, big deal.

I wasn't the only person to quit that class.



Pawzk9 said:


> The thing is, if you teach the dog that it's really rewarding to be at your side, and how to turn off pressure on the leash by moving towards it (also taught with clicker - google "silky leash" loose leash walking becomes a lot easier.


I watched a couple videos of that... I think it looks easier using a very light pressure to encourage the dog to change direction, than the method of trying to always maneuver in such a way to keep the leash loose 100% of the time... Snoopy moves so quickly sometimes that it's hard to do the stop or direction change without a slight jerk at the end of the leash occurring (I've been using a 4-ft leash and winding it around my hand a couple loops to keep him fairly close).

And I think he'll get the silky leash method pretty quickly, because when I take him out in the yard on leash just for potty trips, I've been letting him figure out what to do when he winds himself around my legs. I just stand still and wait until he runs out of leash, feels the pressure, and figures out to back up and unwind himself... rather than unwind the leash myself or spin my body in circles to follow him. When he was little, I'd let him do his laps around me, because if he wrapped around my legs and ran out of leash, he might just decide to squat over my shoe to pee LOL. But now that he's older and smarter, I'm done playing helicopter! 



Pawzk9 said:


> If your dog is dependent on feeling constant feedback from the leash he doesn't need to look to you for guidance.


Good point. I'll start working off leash in our hallway, as well as starting the silky leash training somewhere else in the house so he learns what light pressure means when it happens. I guess I'll also have to get him used to wearing a harness when we walk outside in the meantime.



Pawzk9 said:


> If you are on the Training Levels Yahoo group, check out the recent conversation on "Lazy Leash" especially the posts from Sue Eh (that is Sue Ailsby) herself.)


I joined the group but haven't had time to read there yet. I'll look it up. Thanks.



PinkAlphaPaws said:


> It is not intended to be used to inflict pain; it's a training tool not a weapon.


You know what they say about that road and the intentions that pave it...

Anyway, I'm a total newb at dog training, and I guess I have a simple view on it... there are multiple ways to get a dog's attention. A prong could do it, a collar pop could do it, yelling could do it, a click & treat could do it, etc... so what baffles me is, of the options people have, why choose to try the prong first? On any dog, but especially on small ones and puppies who don't even have the strength to put you in a perilous situation.

I guess I also don't understand the mindset of putting a training collar on a dog who is already trained to walk on a loose leash, and calling it a "safety measure." If the regular collar is properly fitted (can't be pulled over top of the dog's head) and in good condition, what are you afraid of happening that a prong will prevent? If you really want that backup attachment point in case of equipment failure, why a prong over a harness? Or a 2nd flat collar and 2nd leash?


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

PinkAlphaPaws said:


> I was taught by an experience trainer that a prong collar is an attention getting tool. As if to say, "hey look at me!" when they are wondering off to the side to sniff something or pulling ahead of you. A quick snap to the side helps them to refocus on what they are supposed to be doing. It is not intended to be used to inflict pain; it's a training tool not a weapon. (Although when seeing it for the first time, it does look pretty gnarly.) I think they are a great tool for large & strong breeds primarily to to teach them to walk politely on a loose leash. I only had to use it for a little while and now my Great Pyrenees will stay at my left side with his shoulder touching my leg where ever I go on or off leash.


The line between training tools and weapons can be pretty thin. 

Still, nevertheless, one dog's weapon is another dog's training tool. An unruly fullgrown Great Pyrenees, for example. He's got a great defense against the prong collar. You didn't start him out like that as a puppy though, did you?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Snoopy11 said:


> I guess I also don't understand the mindset of putting a training collar on a dog who is already trained to walk on a loose leash, and calling it a "safety measure." If the regular collar is properly fitted (can't be pulled over top of the dog's head) and in good condition, what are you afraid of happening that a prong will prevent? If you really want that backup attachment point in case of equipment failure, why a prong over a harness? Or a 2nd flat collar and 2nd leash?


As an example to explain the mindset lets assume that Caeda can walk nicely at a heel for quite some time without pulling under high distraction (not there yet...but someday). If I'm walking with her in the best place I've got to walk her, which is a long stretch with highway on one side (30m away) and forest on the other (1m away). If a deer, elk, bear, cow, cougar, fox....you name it runs out of the bushes and she bolts after it I don't want to run the risk of losing her. She is strong enough to: pull me over, pull the leash out of my hand (if she bolted suddenly), bust a collar (she's done these before), or potentially re-inure my neck/shoulder. Which could land her in either a fight with a wild animal, in traffic on the highway, or who knows where else. 

Yeah, there are lots of maybes and what ifs in there, but they are likely enough to happen that the best (ok, fine perhaps the easiest) contingency I can think of is to use a training collar as insurance and hope it never tightens. She is drivey and strong and I doubt I could train her well enough to completely compensate for those in all potential situations, not without probably literally beating them out of her (not gonna happen). I don't want to ever have 20/20 hindsight and wish I'd had something for backup to keep her from getting killed, hurt or lost.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> But it is an aversive, not just an "attention getting tool." Your trainer lied to you.


Well I'm not sure trainer lied because I would have to be there, but truth be told, yes it is an aversive used to get a dogs attention.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> As an example to explain the mindset lets assume that Caeda can walk nicely at a heel for quite some time without pulling under high distraction (not there yet...but someday). If I'm walking with her in the best place I've got to walk her, which is a long stretch with highway on one side (30m away) and forest on the other (1m away). If a deer, elk, bear, cow, cougar, fox....you name it runs out of the bushes and she bolts after it I don't want to run the risk of losing her. She is strong enough to: pull me over, pull the leash out of my hand (if she bolted suddenly), bust a collar (she's done these before), or potentially re-inure my neck/shoulder. Which could land her in either a fight with a wild animal, in traffic on the highway, or who knows where else.
> 
> Yeah, there are lots of maybes and what ifs in there, but they are likely enough to happen that the best (ok, fine perhaps the easiest) contingency I can think of is to use a training collar as insurance and hope it never tightens. She is drivey and strong and I doubt I could train her well enough to completely compensate for those in all potential situations, not without probably literally beating them out of her (not gonna happen). I don't want to ever have 20/20 hindsight and wish I'd had something for backup to keep her from getting killed, hurt or lost.


I been there, big strong hunting dog, broke the d-ring right out of a leather collar once (a quality leather piece, not some piece of crap). He wore a prong collar. There's a limit to how tight they close. Thing about those slip collars is, if the lead is slack when they bolt, the sudden shock of pulling it tight -- I don't like to think about it. I used to take that dog on long walks on busy city streeets, hoping he would get accustomed to staying out of traffic, just in case. Don't know if that helped but he never got run over.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Just another direction, they have leather or Nylon Marti 1.5 inches wide that surely helps protect the throat and a strong dog would find it very difficult to slip out of or break when adjusted properly.


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## Snoopy11 (Jan 20, 2012)

Greater Swiss said:


> She is strong enough to: pull me over, pull the leash out of my hand (if she bolted suddenly), bust a collar (she's done these before), or potentially re-inure my neck/shoulder.


So, in a freak incident that makes her forget her leash training, do you expect that the mere presence of the prong collar is going to stop her from making that initial bolt?

And if not, and she bolts, you're thinking that with a prong collar on, she's not going to hit the end of the leash with the same amount of force she would otherwise? (With that same amount of force that you say is enough to pull you over, yank the leash from your hand, bust a collar, or re-injure you?)

Having seen prong collars but with no personal experience using them, I have a question... will a dog in a super freaked out state, who was not trained on leash with a prong collar, automatically know to stop pulling the first time a prong tightens on her neck? Or, in this amped up state, where she has already broken her leash manners, might she be as likely to continue pulling for awhile anyway?

I ask because it doesn't make sense to me to introduce a tool the dog has not experienced before, in hopes that if the time comes to use it, the dog will instantly know how to respond.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Snoopy11 said:


> Having seen prong collars but with no personal experience using them, I have a question... will a dog in a super freaked out state, who was not trained on leash with a prong collar, automatically know to stop pulling the first time a prong tightens on her neck? Or, in this amped up state, where she has already broken her leash manners, might she be as likely to continue pulling for awhile anyway?


She may stop pulling or end up with learned helplessness, depends on the dog. 

To use it properly, dog needs to be conditioned to a collar first - needs to learn how to turn off the pressure. If you put it on a dog that often freaks out, collar will agitate the dog even more - he will never figure out how to stop it. You would have to invest time and effort to gradually introduce him to the collar.

Dog that understand how the collar works would naturally avoid the pain it delivers. If dog just continues pulling it's not because it's a super tough dog but because it simply learned to live with it (learned helplessness). This goes for flat collars as well, I've seen dogs with neck injuries and bruises because they think pulling is the only way to have a walk.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Snoopy11 said:


> So, in a freak incident that makes her forget her leash training, do you expect that the mere presence of the prong collar is going to stop her from making that initial bolt?
> 
> And if not, and she bolts, you're thinking that with a prong collar on, she's not going to hit the end of the leash with the same amount of force she would otherwise? (With that same amount of force that you say is enough to pull you over, yank the leash from your hand, bust a collar, or re-injure you?)
> ........


In an incident like I described the prong collar wouldn't stop that initial bolt, but hopefully the prong would stop her from bolting any further, and maybe, just maybe keep her from getting into traffic or the deer or other animal that might be around. When I walk with her I keep the leash short, partially so she can't build up enough momentum to either break free of my grip (which she comes close to on occasion), or hit the end of the leash with a lot of momentum. 
I do agree with the unfairness of putting a collar like that without introducing it first, we would try to do that but unfortunately, the "correct response" in an "emergency" wouldn't be to return to a heel....it would be to do ANYTHING but run after what had her attention. Yeah, it would hurt, but if its a yelp vs. hitting traffic I'll take the yelp. We tried her on a prong once, she was VERY reactive to it, she jumped and bit at us immediately after it tightened, which is one of many reasons we don't use it. BUT if in the described incident she jumped and bit at me because a prong tightened, I would take that over having her run off. 
I've tried looking into other things I could use as a final "safety measure", but it seems to be the one that would be the easiest to deal with...


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

Snoopy11 said:


> So, in a freak incident that makes her forget her leash training, do you expect that the mere presence of the prong collar is going to stop her from making that initial bolt?
> 
> And if not, and she bolts, you're thinking that with a prong collar on, she's not going to hit the end of the leash with the same amount of force she would otherwise? (With that same amount of force that you say is enough to pull you over, yank the leash from your hand, bust a collar, or re-injure you?)
> 
> ...


My experience with a big strong dog is, he didn't care one way or the other. When he pulled, he pulled less hard.

It's not the same as if it were made fast to a fire hydrant -- you would absorb a lot of that shock, in the process of falling, and stretching all those ligaments in your hand & arm & shoulder, plus the the leash will have some flex unless its a chain or steel cable. The collar just mediates her pulling strength. Slow her down, to give the prey a chance to disappear before she drags you out into traffic.

Wonder if anybody makes a shock absorbing leash.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

DustyCrockett said:


> Wonder if anybody makes a shock absorbing leash.


Yes actually, I've seen those . I may take a picture of the construct, not sure if it's hand-made but the guy had his great dane on it.



Greater Swiss said:


> We tried her on a prong once, she was VERY reactive to it, she jumped and bit at us immediately after it tightened, which is one of many reasons we don't use it.


Yeah, apparently this happens a lot in the beginning with (properly fit) prong/pinch collars. In this 3 part video Mike Ellis explains pressure and "demonstrates" this, well, biting issue so to say. When you watch the 3rd (I think) video you'll see a dog yelp and mouth the handler. Dog's actual owner was visibly upset after the ordeal .


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DustyCrockett said:


> Wonder if anybody makes a shock absorbing leash.


Sure.


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