# formal obedience with a clicker



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Just wondering how you go about this? What is the first thing you teach, and how do you go about teaching it?

I am starting an advanced obedience class on Friday with my poodle x, aiming to get into trialling, and just wondering what I can do on my own until then?

Obviously she already knows sit, down, stay, and we have made a very basic start on heel, but she has no rear end awareness, and she wasn't clicker trained as a puppy so that makes things extra slow.

And just wondering if the book "clicker training for obedience" is worth getting?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have heard it is a good book, but I will say that formal obedience is very precision oriented (in AKC). 

Most formal obedience trialers who are successful (note I say MOST not ALL) do not exclusively clicker train because they have found there are short comings with that method in the ring, especialy at the higher levels. 

I believe, to this day, there are NO exclusively clicker trained dogs with their OTCh. I have investigated this some and have found that most OTCh trainers started in correction based training and those that did switch to clickers found a time would come when the dog had to understand that meaning of "have to" as opposed to "choose to" and they have incorporated some form of positive punishment or aversive to make that point. 

I do not use clickers anymore (tho I still do marker training) and I have gone away from food training and payment for a job done for obedience in the AKC ring. 

This is not to suggest it cannot be done, should not be tried or that you cannot do it. It is also not to suggest that AKC is the ONLY venue for formal obedience. The APDT trials allow food in the ring (for instance) and UKC has different rules etc.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

A friend of mine put an OTCh on her dog and used no corrections i.e collar pops etc. She also used a clicker and like any tool faded it and went with a verbal marker which again she faded.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

LynnI said:


> A friend of mine put an OTCh on her dog and used no corrections i.e collar pops etc. She also used a clicker and like any tool faded it and went with a verbal marker which again she faded.


What dog? When was the OTCh awrded? What was the dog's name and Breed of dog? I would be very interested to read more about this.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Karen Pryor's clicker training site has an honor roll for dogs that were exclusively clicker trained and achieved a title, and there are several OTCh dogs there.

Anyway, thanks for the advice, we are mostly doing it as a challenge and something to keep her busy. If not punishing her means we can't win, then oh well, I would rather not punish her and not win than punish her and win.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> What dog? When was the OTCh awrded? What was the dog's name and Breed of dog? I would be very interested to read more about this.


They got it a year or so ago, dog is a Toller. Dog is also a multititled agility dog that is one q away from his ATChC. Having said all that I don't know his reg'd name but when she comes for her lesson on Friday I will ask and also ask for her permission to either provide you with the information or post it on an open forum. If she agrees, I'll either post it here or PM you with the information.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> I believe, to this day, there are NO exclusively clicker trained dogs with their OTCh.


Just wondering, how do you actually know this? Unless you know each dog and handler personally, you wouldn't know how the dog was trained...?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> I believe, to this day, there are NO exclusively clicker trained dogs with their OTCh.


Sheila Booth took one of her dogs to sch III, completely void of compulsives, way back in the 1990's.

... does THAT count ???


Also, a quick search of Karen Pryor's website indicates an actual listing of dogs who have attained their OTCh, via clicker training. If you're interested, you might want to look there.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Training dogs for formal obedience with a clicker and actually getting titles is a HUGE debate on those forums. 

One of the discussions is the lack of operant conditioned dogs with OTCh and whether or not you can achieve consistancy. Most of the discussions end up saying you cannot.. at some point the dog gets the old "have to do it" speech... 

I have never said it cannot be done. I have read repeatedly that these dogs had, at some point, some aversives used to get the result. 

I really like the precision and demands of Formal obedience. I personally have neither the money and (probably not) the time to make an OTCh out of a dog. I also do use all four quadrants of learning theory. That is ME and the dogs I have. 

Not really wanting to take this into that debate. Just was mentioning it to the OP. 
Getting a SchH 3 w/o compulsion is impressive. Would like to know more. 
I have dropped that training due to some of what I have been seeing locally and due to Money and (again) time.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> What dog? When was the OTCh awrded? What was the dog's name and Breed of dog? I would be very interested to read more about this.


Ok, here is the info provided by my friend and with her permission to post in a open forum.

Owner/Trainer/Handler:
Kimberly Hoard-Millar
Dog:
OTCh Redwyn's Acadian Cedar, CGN, RA
Toller.
Earned: May 2010 score was in the 190's.
Additional information:
They have 4 OTCh legs and are now working towards their OTCh X.

She also says that she is completely aware that AKC OB is harder than CKC (Canadian Kennel Club). While learning new behaviours or perfecting them, she used a clicker which of course was faded. She didn't not use any corrections on any level other NRM.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

This is impressive but it is NOT AKC OTCh. This is CKC and VERY different and easier to obtain. 

An OTCh in AKC requires 100 points (must beat other dogs in scoring and there must be enough enties to get OTCh points) and most dogs get their OTCh in Utility competition after getting their UDX (which is ten UD qualifying legs). You can earn an AKC OTCh in Open (CDX) but it is much more difficult and usually takes longer to do. 

Thanks for clarifying.. and I apologize for not doing so myself. I shoud have been clear. I was talking about AKC OTCh.

FWIW I just went to Karen Pryor's site and found, at this time, no AKC OTCh dogs listed. I started a blog asking if they had any listing of a dog with an AKC OTCh or an AKC UDX. I could find none with their search engine on the site. 

If there are any I would still LOVE to know. 

This is not to take anything away from Kimberly's CKC OTCh dog and again, I apologize for being so AKC Oriented but that is what I am (still) looking for!


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> This is impressive but it is NOT AKC OTCh. This is CKC and VERY different and easier to obtain.
> 
> An OTCh in AKC requires 200 points (must beat other dogs in scoring and there must be enough enties to get OTCh points) and most dogs get their OTCh in Utility competition after getting their UDX (which is ten UD qualifying legs). You can earn an AKC OTCh in Open (CDX) but it is much more difficult and usually takes longer to do.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying.. and I apologize for not doing so myself. I shoud have been clear. I was talking about AKC OTCh.


Are you kidding me???? First already said that she said the AKC was harder, so you are not providing any new information. But lets make one thing clear, unless YOU have achived equal or more than she has or anyone else with your dog/s you do not have right to dismiss it or put it down.
So having said that, just what Titles have you put on a dog/s, to be such an expert on the subject???

So please do start to list your name, your dogs names, breed and Titles earned.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Again, you misread or stopped reading what I wrote. I did not dismiss her accomplishment. I merely said it was not what I was looking for because I was not clear in my question (and I apologized for that.. how many times do you want me to do this? you got it once.. maybe twice.. that is all you get). I said I was not clear in what I asked (specifically AKC OTCh). 

What I would LOVE TO SEE is an AKC OTCh trained with a clicker per Karen Pryor's 'promise.' She is right. It is tough to get! Expensive too! She said it was different as well! I agree. 

I know of a few CKC OTCh dogs that have less than 25 AKC OTCh points toward the 100. I questioned those people and they all agreed with Kimberly that the CKC OTCh was an easier lift than the AKC OTCh. Does not mean the CKC OTCh is not an accomplishment because it certainly is. 

I am NOT a full clicker trainer (have used the method successfully) tho I do use markers and would not sign the Karen Pryor "promise" because I do not exclusively train that way. 

All I would like to see is someone getting an AKC OTCh with this method. I would like to see it repeated as well. The reason for this is that I am sure I could learn from someone who has done it AND it might shift the training methods currently out there that most OTCh trainers use (including ear pinch for retrieves). 

I have read these discussion on Obedience forums and so far NO ONE has an AKC OTCh trained using Karen Pryor's promise.. and the consensus is that it cannot be done because you cannot attain consistant enough performances with the method to get this title. It is hard to get. It is expensive to get. Very few dogs achieve it _period._ 

Did not mean to offend but this is an internet forum and so it goes. No need to go to Wedgie land! My last post on this thread because I do not want to take it into this discussion.


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## Settican (Apr 5, 2008)

Just out of curiosity... what are the differences in AKC vs CKC obedience? Our obedience over here in SA is based heavily on the UK style, which I believe is different from AKC/CKC. Sorry for potential thread derail, if I should take this to a new post, let me know.

I'm clicker training my pup and we will (hopefully) be competing in obedience trials later this year


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Are you kidding me???? First already said that she said the AKC was harder, so you are not providing any new information. But lets make one thing clear, unless YOU have achived equal or more than she has or anyone else with your dog/s you do not have right to dismiss it or put it down.
> So having said that, just what Titles have you put on a dog/s, to be such an expert on the subject???


Aren't we cranky this morning, this is the internet and pretty much everybody has the right to do as they will. If it's not proper they usually end up getting dismissed/banned or whatever. Trust me on this I have a bunch of titles that are listed on DF and it still gives me no superior rights to dump rudeness on anybody.


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## dogclickerfan (Mar 3, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Karen Pryor's clicker training site has an honor roll for dogs that were exclusively clicker trained and achieved a title, and there are several OTCh dogs there.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the advice, we are mostly doing it as a challenge and something to keep her busy. If not punishing her means we can't win, then oh well, I would rather not punish her and not win than punish her and win.


Hi Lil Fuzzy, can't help but agree with you on your views on not winning if it means you have to punish your dog. 

My experience is that you can train a top obedience dog using clicker methods. My dog Rufus CDX, the 2009 SKC Reserve Obedience Dog of the Year was trained using a clicker. I lost out to the eventual winner that year on countback after tieing on points at the end of 4 trails held over a period of one year. Elanna may say that the SKC trails are easier than AKC and probably so but I have never gone for any formal obedience classes, train dogs only as a hobby (as I have a comfortable full time job) and took part in the trials just to see if my home clicker trained dog could beat those compulsion trained dogs from top training schools as well as those trained by professional trainers. And the answer was yes.

I learned dog training through reading books and started out using compulsion methods because in those days the only books I could get hold off were those teaching compulsion method. The book that got me started on clicker training was Morgan Spectors's "Clicker Training for Obedience" so yes, it's a good book with lots of information on how to obedience train your dog using a clicker.

After using both methods, my own experience is that clicker trained dogs tend to go about doing their work much more enthusiatically and are a joy to watch in the ring. To speed up recall work on compulsion trained dogs, trainers sometimes resort to throw chains, e-collars etc. To force a retrieve, they resort to ear pinch and not to mention the number of leash pops the poor dog has to go through before it is obedience trained. Do we want to go in those directions especially when more humane methods are available?

Good luck clicker training


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Just wondering how you go about this? What is the first thing you teach, and how do you go about teaching it?
> 
> I am starting an advanced obedience class on Friday with my poodle x, aiming to get into trialling, and just wondering what I can do on my own until then?
> 
> ...


You're talking about the Karen Pryor booklet. Yes, it is a good place to start. Usually the first behavior I work on is the name game - dog whips around to look at you when you say his/her name. Never a bad thing to have as if you don't have attention, you don't have much. Second behavior is targeting which can be turned into a retrieve, go out, etc. I think the reason most formal obedience trials don't clicker train (I don't know anybody who EXCLUSIVELY clicker trains) is because it is a stodgy old sport, and when people are successful with what they do, they often aren't motivated to change it. Also, when you start REALLY exploring what is possible with a clicker, obedience is not all that interesting anymore.



Elana55 said:


> This is impressive but it is NOT AKC OTCh. This is CKC and VERY different and easier to obtain.
> 
> An OTCh in AKC requires 100 points (must beat other dogs in scoring and there must be enough enties to get OTCh points) and most dogs get their OTCh in Utility competition after getting their UDX (which is ten UD qualifying legs). You can earn an AKC OTCh in Open (CDX) but it is much more difficult and usually takes longer to do.
> 
> ...


Most dogs get their OTCH from competing in both Open and Utility, taking points from winning either class.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I think the reason most formal obedience trials don't clicker train (I don't know anybody who EXCLUSIVELY clicker trains) is because it is a stodgy old sport, and when people are successful with what they do, they often aren't motivated to change it. Also, when you start REALLY exploring what is possible with a clicker, obedience is not all that interesting anymore.


I hate to come back on but with this rather deprecating remark I will. 

I find the precision and exactness of obedience anything BUT stodgy or boring. It is similar to training dressage. Both are precison oriented and exacting and, when done well, a beautiful compliment to a team effort between an animal and a human being. A wonder to watch when done well. 



> Most dogs get their OTCH from competing in both Open and Utility, taking points from winning either class.


True, either Open B or Utility B wins can give you AKC OTCh points. Most points I see are in Utility around here.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> I hate to come back on but with this rather deprecating remark I will.
> 
> I find the precision and exactness of obedience anything BUT stodgy or boring. It is similar to training dressage. Both are precison oriented and exacting and, when done well, a beautiful compliment to a team effort between an animal and a human being. A wonder to watch when done well.


Shrug. Well, I've only been doing obedience for about thirty something years. And judging for about 20-something (not an AKC judge, though I have the qualifications). A nice team is breathtaking. Like most things, that would be a small percentage of what actually is entered. It's not all that exacting, and not all that precise as done by the majority of people who are titling. And the behaviors are pretty easy to teach compared to some other disciplines. Quite honestly, an amazing team in any sport can give me chills. And much of the attitude one often sees in Obedience IS stodgy. You don't have to agree, of course. (should I list titles?)


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

lil_fuzzy said:


> And just wondering if the book "clicker training for obedience" is worth getting?


If you are referring to "Clicker Training for Obedience" by Morgan Spector (which I assume you are, however I may be wrong) then I would recommend it. I have not been using it practically with my dog yet, but I have read it over a couple times. (I'm at college currently so once my dog does come up to stay with me I will proceed to train her with these methods. For now I am just reading it over and over to get a clear picture)

I am in the same boat though. I want to do it for fun and I don't want to use corrections. I don't care about a "flashy" prancing heel or eyes drilling into my head during the whole routine. So in this case, for me personally, I really enjoy learning from the book. He does a lot of targeting work so teaching your dog to touch a target stick is a very beneficial first step. It is a lot of text though and not as many pictures as I would personally like, however everything is explained in quite some detail. He goes over A LOT of stuff and I have found myself marking pages, taking notes, and reading parts over and over to try and get everything. He also uses lots of examples. This book isn't really for someone who wants to just teach some tricks though, there is a lot of vocabulary he uses and a lot of ideas and theories and it really does take a moment to grasp it all. So, all in all, I like the book a lot and it goes through AKC obedience in a very thorough manner, I feel like.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> All I would like to see is someone getting an AKC OTCh with this method. I would like to see it repeated as well. The reason for this is that I am sure I could learn from someone who has done it AND it might shift the training methods currently out there that most OTCh trainers use (including ear pinch for retrieves).
> 
> I have read these discussion on Obedience forums and so far NO ONE has an AKC OTCh trained using Karen Pryor's promise.. and the consensus is that it cannot be done because you cannot attain consistant enough performances with the method to get this title. It is hard to get. It is expensive to get. *Very few dogs achieve it period.*


Aside from the difficulty and the expense, ... 

.. is an AKC OTCh "worth" THAT much to some people that they are willing to subject their dogs to ear pinch retrieves etc, as the ONLY means by which to achieve it ?

Not worth it, IMO. It's an "achievement" I could easily live without.



As previously stated .. there are plenty of clicker trained, NON-ear pinched CKC OTCh dogs, and while some people may consider that to be an inferior accomplishment, .. personally, I don't.


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## dogclickerfan (Mar 3, 2011)

Nil said:


> I don't care about a "flashy" prancing heel or eyes drilling into my head during the whole routine.


It is very possible to clicker train your dog to look up at you while heeling using the clicker. And there are many advantages of doing this eg if you train heeling using signal alone, you will not need to bend down to give the down signal during the drop in motion segment of heeling. And some people use their head as an additional cue to pre-empt the dog that a turn or about turn is coming. You have to be subtle and natural though or you will be penalized for the additional cue.
It's been a while since I last read Morgan Spector's book. If I recall correctly, Morgan mentioned that he would rather click for focus and let the dog decide on its head position because you do not score any addition points for getting your dog to look up while heeling. Thus it's his decision not to include looking up as a criterion to reinforce but it by no means imply that you cannot teach this behavior using a clicker.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks for your replies, yes I am talking about the book by Morgan Spector. I would personally like a book with photos too, as I find it much easier to learn stuff by watching other people do it. Oh well, I have a discount at the book depository so might as well use it on this book

I agree that there is no reason you can't do eye contact during heel with a clicker. While I was working on loose lead walking with my puppy when he was 4-5 months, he heeled perfectly while staring up at me the whole time, and I wasn't even trying to teach a perfect heel at the time. We work a lot on eye contact and focus and calmness, so I guess it's a by-product of that. I have been slack with the heeling since then, because I never intended to teach him to heel, and now he just walks on a loose lead while sniffing the ground.

It's my other dog that I want to do obedience with, and she is a very stare-y dog to begin with, I'm always looking up to find her staring at me, she can hold eye contact for ages.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

dogclickerfan said:


> It is very possible to clicker train your dog to look up at you while heeling using the clicker. And there are many advantages of doing this eg if you train heeling using signal alone, you will not need to bend down to give the down signal during the drop in motion segment of heeling. And some people use their head as an additional cue to pre-empt the dog that a turn or about turn is coming. You have to be subtle and natural though or you will be penalized for the additional cue.


I suppose I should have made it a little clearer as to what I meant. Yes, I do like some attention during the routines and I like her looking at me, so I do try to train a lot of the behavior with eye contact. However, I am in it for fun mostly. So, I am personally not very interested in training that "intense, drivey, staring into my soul" look. Which I am certain can be accomplished with clicker training, no doubt. I want her knowing what I am doing and know I have her attention, but I personally do not need that almost neurotic staring. I don't know if this makes sense really? Don't get me wrong though, that staring is very flashy and speaks volumes of the commitment and dedication of the trainer and it looks very good, but I don't necessarily want that personally

. I think I may have worded that poorly to begin with, maybe I still did. I guess it is more personal preference and I shouldn't have made it sound as if you couldn't do it through clicker training with Morgan Spector's book, just that that is not what I am personally interested in teaching. Although I definitely agree about being able to train it through clicker training! 

Clicker training is very powerful and while there may not be a current dog with an OTCH that was 100% clicker trained, I think given more time to refine the method there will be a lot of them. 

I may be wrong, but hasn't compulsion training been around a lot longer than clicker training/reward based training (strictly with dogs)? So, it doesn't necessarily surprise me that there are no OTCH titled dogs necessarily. Doesn't mean it can't happen, just means no one was first yet. Give it another 10 years and maybe we'll start to see newer, more challenging titles put in place because so many dogs are getting their OTCH! You never know. If they can clicker train dogs to blow bubbles underwater, I would think they can clicker train them to preform retrieves, jumps, heeling, etc. Granted, it just takes time and dedication and lots of tweaking to training programs, I think. But who knows, really.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> One of the discussions is the lack of operant conditioned dogs with OTCh and whether or not you can achieve consistancy. Most of the discussions end up saying you cannot.. at some point the dog gets the old "have to do it" speech...


That's still operant conditioning.

Forcing a dog to do something is still on some level operant conditioning. If nothing else, when the dog does it, the social pressure is relieved - thus making it -R.

In hopes of avoiding the pressure/discomfort, the dog will perform the behavior on that cue more frequently.



petpeeve said:


> As previously stated .. there are plenty of clicker trained, NON-ear pinched CKC OTCh dogs, and while some people may consider that to be an inferior accomplishment, .. personally, I don't.


I know I don't.

Heck, if I can get a CD on Wally someday, I'll consider it an accomplishment to take a fearful dog and successfully complete a set of trials with him.

Of course, I'm in the "sidetracked by what's possible by marker training" group.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogclickerfan said:


> It is very possible to clicker train your dog to look up at you while heeling using the clicker. And there are many advantages of doing this eg if you train heeling using signal alone, you will not need to bend down to give the down signal during the drop in motion segment of heeling. And some people use their head as an additional cue to pre-empt the dog that a turn or about turn is coming. You have to be subtle and natural though or you will be penalized for the additional cue.
> It's been a while since I last read Morgan Spector's book. If I recall correctly, Morgan mentioned that he would rather click for focus and let the dog decide on its head position because you do not score any addition points for getting your dog to look up while heeling. Thus it's his decision not to include looking up as a criterion to reinforce but it by no means imply that you cannot teach this behavior using a clicker.


I knew one lady who taught her dog to heel with his nose pointing straight up. He never actually LOOKED at her, but he always looked up! My best heeling dog (ASCA OTCH/AKC UD, National Specialty HIT, Nationally Ranked, Tournament participant) hardly ever lost more than a point on heeling. But she worked with her head forward and her eyes cut over the top of her head at me. She was very precise.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Having only 1 CD title way back when real dinosaurs ruled the world, done just to see if I could and then never returned to the obedience ring as I really thought it was boring. I was 19 and it just never rang my bell.

That being said almost 50 yrs later and bunches of obedience work done for just people wanting to walk their dogs I have never trained any of these dogs to heel looking at me. It just was not necessary and hard with time constraints. 

That being said, I have noticed that some dogs through the years have finished with 30 to 45 days of work and actually are head locked looking up at me with nothing different being done to get that head position. Owners remark how nice it looks but I do tell them that I believe since nothing special was done that it is their dog's individual style. No more, no less.

I realize that it can be trained but in real life I thought dog looking ahead in the direction he was walking made more sense for the average dog owner.

Now please I am not knocking Obedience trials at all but at 19 drinking beer and other assorted activities were much more important and exciting to me than Obed trialing. At that time professional dog training was nowhere in my head. (actually wasn't much going on in my head)


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Aren't we cranky this morning, this is the internet and pretty much everybody has the right to do as they will. If it's not proper they usually end up getting dismissed/banned or whatever. Trust me on this I have a bunch of titles that are listed on DF and it still gives me no superior rights to dump rudeness on anybody.


Goes both ways, as I'm sure you know.



Pawzk9 said:


> Most dogs get their OTCH from competing in both Open and Utility, taking points from winning either class.


Actually they have to get their OTCh from competing in both Open and Utility since there are requirements from each to earn the title. Granted it can be skewed one way or the other, but yes I agree with you.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

lil_fuzzy said:


> And just wondering if the book "clicker training for obedience" is worth getting?


I'm sure there are many good books on the subject that are considered 'worth getting'. 

For fundamentals, one of my favourite recommendations is Sheila Booth's *"Purely Positive Training - Companion to Competition"*

If you're interested, you can find it at dogwise.com


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> That being said, I have noticed that some dogs through the years have finished with 30 to 45 days of work and actually are head locked looking up at me with nothing different being done to get that head position. Owners remark how nice it looks but I do tell them that I believe since nothing special was done that it is their dog's individual style. No more, no less.
> 
> I realize that it can be trained but in real life I thought dog looking ahead in the direction he was walking made more sense for the average dog owner.



You know, that's interesting because unless I'm doing a "formal" session on heel, Wally doesn't look up at me. (Why he does when I'm m/r him - I'm guessing he's watching for the food to come ) 

I see he getting it because he'll check where he is relative to me (especially if he or I has to change speed/stride, like we're going uphill or something), but normally, he's just looking where he's going.

I've wondered how that's done to get the dog to constantly look at you and not if he's about to run into a garbage can (which has happened during the "formal" training so I'm careful about not doing it on trash day).


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## dogclickerfan (Mar 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> That being said, I have noticed that some dogs through the years have finished with 30 to 45 days of work and actually are head locked looking up at me with nothing different being done to get that head position. Owners remark how nice it looks but I do tell them that I believe since nothing special was done that it is their dog's individual style. No more, no less.
> 
> I realize that it can be trained but in real life I thought dog looking ahead in the direction he was walking made more sense for the average dog owner.


Agree and if I recall correctly, Morgan Spector mentioned in his book "Clicker Training for Obedience" that he would click for focus and let the dog decide on its head position. He even when on to mentioned that his dog Dylan had a natural preference to look up while his other dogs will focus on different parts of his body. 

The purpose of my post was merely to highlight that it is possible to train heeling with attention using the clicker and the advantages in the ring I have personally experienced of having a dog that looks up while heeling. It in no way implies that it is not possible to compete with a dog that looks straight ahead while heeling as some of these dogs score very well too.

Lastly again totally agree with you that in real life a dog looking ahead in the direction it is walking made more sense for the average dog owner. In fact it makes more sense for any owner even those doing obedience competitively, which is why I use 2 different cues, "Heel" for heeling with full attention and "let's go" for the more relax form of loose leash walking. It's also the reason why if you visit the website my spouse put up on dog clicker training, we shared how to train loose leash walking using a clicker and no where in those step by step instructions did we even mention the need to click for your dog looking up. Personally feel that dog looking up while heeling is mainly for the ring; there's no necessity to take any dog for a long walk with it looking up at you with full attention 100% of the time.

Again, the above are just my personal thoughts on this matter and others may disagree.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Personally feel that dog looking up while heeling is mainly for the ring; there's no necessity to take any dog for a long walk with it looking up at you with full attention 100% of the time.
> 
> Again, the above are just my personal thoughts on this matter and others may disagree.


I would hope that not too many disagree as common sense rules.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> This is impressive but it is NOT AKC OTCh. This is CKC and VERY different and easier to obtain.
> 
> An OTCh in AKC requires 100 points (must beat other dogs in scoring and there must be enough enties to get OTCh points) and most dogs get their OTCh in Utility competition after getting their UDX (which is ten UD qualifying legs). You can earn an AKC OTCh in Open (CDX) but it is much more difficult and usually takes longer to do.


Just a couple of clarifications - you can earn OTCH points from either (or both) the Open and Utility classes, and most people will be entered in both a the same trial to double their chances at points. A UDX is not 10 UD qualifying legs - it is qualifying in BOTH Open and Utility on the same day at the same trial.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Shrug. Well, I've only been doing obedience for about thirty something years. And judging for about 20-something (not an AKC judge, though I have the qualifications). A nice team is breathtaking. Like most things, that would be a small percentage of what actually is entered. It's not all that exacting, and not all that precise as done by the majority of people who are titling. And the behaviors are pretty easy to teach compared to some other disciplines. *Quite honestly, an amazing team in any sport can give me chills.* And much of the attitude one often sees in Obedience IS stodgy. You don't have to agree, of course. (should I list titles?)


Of all the dog sports I've seen, and been a part of, I can honestly say the most breathtaking team out there that literally gives me goosebumps are a good herding team...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Of all the dog sports I've seen, and been a part of, I can honestly say the most breathtaking team out there that literally gives me goosebumps are a good herding team...


I can only imagine the amount of work that takes.

I'm struggling to get Wally to learn left and right - let alone all the things a herding dog has to consider.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I can only imagine the amount of work that takes.
> 
> I'm struggling to get Wally to learn left and right - let alone all the things a herding dog has to consider.


Schutzhund comes in as a close second. I have a lot of respect for the time/effort it takes for a dog to be able to pay good attention to the handler without looking at them 24/7. A good herding dog always has an "ear out" listening to the handler, but watches the stock. The schutzhund dogs I've seen are the same way; they have an ear out for the handler but their eyes are on the bad guy. 
And to think I jumped for joy when I successfully maneuvered a rear cross xD


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Schutzhund comes in as a close second. I have a lot of respect for the time/effort it takes for a dog to be able to pay good attention to the handler without looking at them 24/7. A good herding dog always has an "ear out" listening to the handler, but watches the stock. The schutzhund dogs I've seen are the same way; they have an ear out for the handler but their eyes are on the bad guy.
> And to think I jumped for joy when I successfully maneuvered a rear cross xD


Okay, I KNOW I am prejudice. But I don't know of much that is more breathtaking than a really good freestyle routine (note: not the level I am currently at). But the world class routines are incredilbly demanding with a huge number of difficult moves which not only have to be cued, but cued in time with the music. Plus creativity, presentation and choreography.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Okay, I KNOW I am prejudice. But I don't know of much that is more breathtaking than a really good freestyle routine (note: not the level I am currently at). But the world class routines are incredilbly demanding with a huge number of difficult moves which not only have to be cued, but cued in time with the music. Plus creativity, presentation and choreography.


True that. A lot of those behaviors look crazy hard to get, let alone get with consistency needed. And the development of cues that key subtly so that it's just part of the overall movements and looks fluid.

Plus it looks like crazy amounts of fun!

I bet that moment where it all comes together and you have your routine down and the timing perfect is a euphoric moment for dog and handler alike.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> True that. A lot of those behaviors look crazy hard to get, let alone get with consistency needed. And the development of cues that key subtly so that it's just part of the overall movements and looks fluid.
> 
> Plus it looks like crazy amounts of fun!
> 
> I bet that moment where it all comes together and you have your routine down and the timing perfect is a euphoric moment for dog and handler alike.


It IS crazy amounts of fun. I wouldn't say I have my routines down and the timing perfect yet, but I have had some outstanding moments of connection in the sport - in training and in exhibition. Mostly with Ray, who is brilliant, but sadly won't be competing for a while as he's still recovering from a serious (non-freestyle-related) injury. As a child, I had to take ballet and tap, and I was HORRIBLE at it. I dreaded recitals. What a difference a dog at your side can make! I still don't dance well, but I am having a riotously good time telling a story, playing with costumes and letting my dogs suggest better moves. Today, the floor of my school was covered in spangles and sequins, since we were busy making glitz costumes for disco night at our upcoming week of seminars, workshops and competitions. And you won't meet a nicer, funnier, more supportive group of people in dogs. Plus most train with R+ because the sport just plain doesn't lend itself to compulsion.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> It IS crazy amounts of fun. I wouldn't say I have my routines down and the timing perfect yet, but I have had some outstanding moments of connection in the sport - in training and in exhibition. Mostly with Ray, who is brilliant, but sadly won't be competing for a while as he's still recovering from a serious (non-freestyle-related) injury. As a child, I had to take ballet and tap, and I was HORRIBLE at it. I dreaded recitals. What a difference a dog at your side can make! I still don't dance well, but I am having a riotously good time telling a story, playing with costumes and letting my dogs suggest better moves. Today, the floor of my school was covered in spangles and sequins, since we were busy making glitz costumes for disco night at our upcoming week of seminars, workshops and competitions. And you won't meet a nicer, funnier, more supportive group of people in dogs. Plus most train with R+ because the sport just plain doesn't lend itself to compulsion.



That's just awesome! 

So great that the sport has such a culture of fun and support around it.  

And I'm convinced dogs, like ninjas, make everything better.

Heheheh yeah, I'd like to see you do an ear pinch or such and get those movements (can you compel creativity? Sounds like a paradox) and with such enthusiasm. Makes it fun for the dog too - which adds even more funniness to the picture (dogs can be amazingly silly - and some of the silliness probably can be captured)

Just makes me which there was some classes or something to look into around here.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Just makes me which there was some classes or something to look into around here.


Yes, I think Wally needs a class as he would make a fine trainer/instructor. Look how he has helped you.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

KBLover said:


> And I'm convinced dogs, like ninjas, make everything better.


lol


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Okay, I KNOW I am prejudice. But I don't know of much that is more breathtaking than a really good freestyle routine (note: not the level I am currently at). But the world class routines are incredilbly demanding with a huge number of difficult moves which not only have to be cued, but cued in time with the music. Plus creativity, presentation and choreography.


The Charlie Chaplin routine was a big turning point for me, because watching that routine I *knew* you couldn't get that kind of stuff out of a dog using compulsion. That's when I decided to try using a marker (I choose a clicker). Dude was about 3 at the time, and I was still leaning more towards "make it so" training. When I introe'd the dog to marker training it was like a light went on in both of our heads. I still use aversives, like NRM's and whatever suits that particular dog (a "hey" can stop Tag dead in his tracks, but it doesn't phase Auz for example), but freestyle is one of those things that's pretty awesome to watch.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Yes, I think Wally needs a class as he would make a fine trainer/instructor. Look how he has helped you.


 True that. 

Though, you know he'd put a twist on it - just for the lolz


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## charleebear (Mar 29, 2011)

I was searching the web for a blog with OTCH in the name (wish I could remember it - it's a lady with a malinois who has IBD). Anyway, found this thread. 

There is great news for trainers who have the goal of earning an OTCH without compulsion (an AKC OTCH )

Denise Fenzi and her dog, Raika, earned their AKC OTCH this past weekend. They also took HIT and High Combined on Sunday. Denise is extremely generous with her feedback and guidance with her students and even to those who worship her from afar. She has many useful videos on youtube. Search by her name and her dogs' names, Raika and Cisu.


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