# Accidental Litters....



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

....That aren't the fault of the owner.

So, the story goes that my friend (a new Welsh Springer Spaniel and English Cocker breeder) sent out her little black English Cocker bitch with a handler to be shown. Said bitch goes into season, and guess what happens?

She gets nailed by the handler's Welsh Springer male.

So, now we have a bitch that is due to whelp at the end of October, and no homes lined up for these puppies. The bitch owner is #1 upset that this happened at all, and #2 upset about the fact that she is going to have "Christmas Puppies". She does not WANT Christmas puppies.

On top of that, this same bitch just whelped a litter of Cocker babies 6 months ago (Her daughters are gorgeous x.x), so the breeder is worried about her health in that regard. Since Welsh babies and English babies are about the same size when they are whelped, she is not all too concerned about having to do a C-Section (but she would if necessary). I really feel for her...she's going to do the same for these puppies that she would any other litter, but is selling them at lowwwww prices (Just enough to cover her costs...and that probably won't even happen).

She's trying to look on the bright side of things by trying to guess what colors she may get. We all think that since the bitch is black, most likely her puppies will be all black or parti blacks....maybe some strange tri color (For those who don't know, Welsh Springers are Orange and White or Red and White)?

I feel so bad, because this owner/breeder does everything right. She health tests her dogs, and is very careful with her breedings, AND she hunts her dogs. Her oldest Welsh bitch has her JH, her pet English male has his JH, and the Welsh father of the litter has his JH and is almost finished. I can't remember if mom has her JH yet or not...don't think so, but I know the breeder will be after it...though this sets her back considerably :-(


Doesn't that just stink?


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

If I were at all in the market for a mix, this would intrigue me. I looked at Welshies back before I got my first Flatcoat. One of the deciding factors was that the FCRSA sent me breed info and the WSSCA did not...

A co-owned bitch of ours had an oops litter. The male broke out of the side window of his Vari Kennel (yep, the side window) and broke down a door to get to her and bred her through her crate door. There were 6 puppies--2 boys and 4 girls. All were placed in pet homes and are spayed and neutered. They were purebred Flatcoats, so they were registered, but it was a breeding we did not want to have happen.

Tell your friend to chin up. Chances are they will be adorable, and since the parents are all health-tested, they may end up quite nice, both as pets and potential workers. I do hope the handler is coughing up some $$ for this one, particualarly if extra vet work is needed?


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## gizmobaby (Apr 30, 2007)

In all honesty, I think that if a dog were to be held in someone else's care, there's no telling what will happen if they're not spayed or neutered. I would be upset as well, but in all honesty, I would also take blame for it.


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## Trixie (Feb 27, 2008)

Oh, that was sort of how I got my pup, who was also a Christmas puppy, Springer/border collie mutt.

If we were anywhere near her, I am sure we would seriously look at adopting one of these pups. 

Actually, we WILL be in the Midwest around Thanksgiving (Chicago), but I don't think it is a real option for us, sadly.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

gizmobaby said:


> In all honesty, I think that if a dog were to be held in someone else's care, there's no telling what will happen if they're not spayed or neutered. I would be upset as well, but in all honesty, I would also take blame for it.


Not when they're a handler and it's their JOB to take care of multiple intact dogs and bitches. That's what you pay them to do. I would have been furious to find out Beau had sired a litter while he was in the care of his handler. It is in no way the breeder's fault because well.. you can't show a spayed/neutered dog. 

Hopefully the handler pays for part of the expense and everyone knows what happened under that handler's care.


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## gizmobaby (Apr 30, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Not when they're a handler and it's their JOB to take care of multiple intact dogs and bitches. That's what you pay them to do. I would have been furious to find out Beau had sired a litter while he was in the care of his handler. It is in no way the breeder's fault because well.. you can't show a spayed/neutered dog.


But that's the risk of having to put a dog in someone else's care. True, the handler was fully at fault, but when it comes to non-spayed owners, they also have the responsibility because they chose to not spay or neuter for the sake of show. That's a risk they knew they were willing to take.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

xephs back!


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

gizmobaby said:


> But that's the risk of having to put a dog in someone else's care. True, the handler was fully at fault, but when it comes to non-spayed owners, they also have the responsibility because they chose to not spay or neuter for the sake of show. That's a risk they knew they were willing to take.


Than this person shouldnt be a handler. The whole show is FULL of intact dogs.. The handler should have been more aware..


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## katthevamp (Aug 7, 2007)

gizmobaby said:


> But that's the risk of having to put a dog in someone else's care. True, the handler was fully at fault, but when it comes to non-spayed owners, they also have the responsibility because they chose to not spay or neuter for the sake of show. That's a risk they knew they were willing to take.


Er, it wasn't just for show. She was planning on breeding the dog, but not with some other breed. I wonder how you would breed a spayed bitch...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> xephs back!


I didn't know I was missed! Aww! Warm fuzzies ^_^

As for the handler paying bills, to the best of my knowledge, she is not paying for anything. The owner of the bitch said she would be charging at most $250 for the puppies, if for no other reason than to try and stay out of the red


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

wabanafcr said:


> The male broke out of the side window of his Vari Kennel (yep, the side window) and broke down a door to get to her and bred her through her crate door.


Good grief!  That's some determined dogs!

Isn't there a 'morning after' pill for dogs?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I didn't know I was missed! Aww! Warm fuzzies ^_^
> 
> As for the handler paying bills, to the best of my knowledge, she is not paying for anything. The owner of the bitch said she would be charging at most $250 for the puppies, if for no other reason than to try and stay out of the red


Yes you certainly were. I love seeing your show pics. 

I'm also wondering where Durbkat has been lately too. 

Anyway sorry to hear about your friends bitch getting bred. That is a bad deal. Hope delivery goes well and they find nice homes.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what about the possibility of an emergency spay? 

Glad to see you back too Xeph. Was wondering where you and Strauss had gone.

Edit:
WOW. That was really stupid. Forget I said anything. Just remembered she is to be bred. *headdesk x 10*


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

BarclaysMom said:


> Isn't there a 'morning after' pill for dogs?


There is, but it is a dangerous thing to do and I would never risk my bitch with it. The safest thing for the bitch is to let her have the puppies, unless you aren't concerned about keeping her intact for future planned breedings, and then spaying is best.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

gizmobaby said:


> In all honesty, I think that if a dog were to be held in someone else's care, there's no telling what will happen if they're not spayed or neutered. I would be upset as well, but in all honesty, I would also take blame for it.


It is a SHOW DOG, you can not show a dog that has been altered.
So spay would have been out of the question because if she had been spayed she wouldn't have been there in the first place.

What kind of a "poo" are they going to call them?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

rosemaryninja said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what about the possibility of an emergency spay?


That'd only work if you weren't ever planning on breeding or showing the bitch again.

Lol, I missed your add on...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

We believe we're going to call them "Wockers" ROFL! That's really the best you can do with these I think xD Or maybe "Sprockers"? Kinger Spaniel?


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Xeph said:


> We believe we're going to call them "Wockers" ROFL! That's really the best you can do with these I think xD Or maybe "Sprockers"? Kinger Spaniel?


Yes you were missed...

I like Sprockers...


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

A Sprocker is a cocker x springer--these are commonly bred by working people in the UK...


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

lol, I like Wockers...Gee, I sure wish we were nearby and in the market for a puppy...English Cockers and Welshies have long been two of my favorite breeds. I would definitely be interested in seeing some pictures of the little rascals.

Otherwise, I hope the whelp goes well and there are no complications and the mom can get a nice long break from puppy-rearing before getting back on track.


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## AirForceAngel (Sep 26, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I didn't know I was missed! Aww! Warm fuzzies ^_^
> 
> As for the handler paying bills, to the best of my knowledge, she is not paying for anything. The owner of the bitch said she would be charging at most $250 for the puppies, if for no other reason than to try and stay out of the red


You know your friend can take the handler or the owner of the male to court and get "puppy welfare" of the handler or the owner or the male dog.

People have done it and it is a legitimate claim.


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## Tailes (Oct 5, 2008)

You know reading this story makes me like show dogs even less. I didnt know they had to be intact to show..
You would think with the over population in the world that would not be an issue..


i dont know why but that just saddens me..


I hope ALL the pups find the bestest of homes!!


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Tailes said:


> You know reading this story makes me like show dogs even less. I didnt know they had to be intact to show..
> You would think with the over population in the world that would not be an issue..
> 
> 
> i dont know why but that just saddens me..


 
But that's the major purpose of showing. It's not a beauty contest; it's to determine which dogs are the best specimens of the breed, to better the breed.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Tailes said:


> You know reading this story makes me like show dogs even less. I didnt know they had to be intact to show..
> You would think with the over population in the world that would not be an issue..


oooooooooook you really dont know anything about showing dogs do you?


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

OK 
I have a couple of things to say 

first 
I never send an intact in season bitch out with a handler 
never ever ever 
I just don't trust anyone to care for my dog especially an in season girl in teh same way that I do. 

so I do feel that the owners share in the responsibility here. My in season girls are in MY care and my care alone..... 

Second - like what the others have said... the point of a dog show is to evaluate breeding stock that is the traditional point... there would be no point in showing spayed or neutered dogs as they could never be used for stud or as a brood bitch.... 

I can't believe that someone comes to a dog board and states that they dislike show dogs..... you can dislike the breeders or the competitors or whatever but to dislike a dog.... because they happen to be a show dog is just downright silly 

I may dislike what people do but I can't say that I dislike a dog.... give me a break.... dogs are dogs... whether they are show dogs or mutts or some silly named mixed breed.... they are still dogs.... 

s


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## AirForceAngel (Sep 26, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> oooooooooook you really dont know anything about showing dogs do you?


That was kind of uncalled for.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Shalva, what would you do if your bitch came into season while she was already out with a handler? 

I can't remember if there was any fine print or specifics in our contract with our handler involving bitches in season. (Of course it may have been easy to overlook that as our dog was a male)



> You know reading this story makes me like show dogs even less. I didnt know they had to be intact to show..
> You would think with the over population in the world that would not be an issue..
> 
> 
> i dont know why but that just saddens me..


It sadden you because show dogs are left intact?  Why would it matter? It *is* possible to keep an intact dog without it siring a bunch of litters. The purpose of showing is that it is one way to evaluate breeding stock- no not the sole evaluation or even the most important one.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Shalva, what would you do if your bitch came into season while she was already out with a handler?
> 
> I can't remember if there was any fine print or specifics in our contract with our handler involving bitches in season. (Of course it may have been easy to overlook that as our dog was a male)


I would either go and pick them up and lose my entry fees 
go to the show and keep them in my care with the handler showing them but me responsible for their care (ie. hotel) 

or just not send them if I had a girl that was very regular and I knew that she was due in the next few weeks.... 

but I just wouldnt have them in someone elses care during that time.... its too risky 

Keep in mind that bleeding starts first so as soon as the bleeding started that would be it for the month for me

call me over cautious but I have never had an accidental litter and I dont plan on having one. 
s


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Tailes said:


> You know reading this story makes me like show dogs even less. I didnt know they had to be intact to show..
> You would think with the over population in the world that would not be an issue..


The only purpose of showing a dog is to evaluate the dog as a candidate for breeding. If your dog can't breed, there's no point in showing it.

Dog shows aren't beauty pageants. I wish more people would understand this.


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## AirForceAngel (Sep 26, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> The only purpose of showing a dog is to evaluate the dog as a candidate for breeding. If your dog can't breed, there's no point in showing it.
> 
> Dog shows aren't beauty pageants. I wish more people would understand this.


Some people just plain old don't care about dog shows because it doesn't interest them.

You know because you're heavy into the dog community. Lots of people are into their own dogs, but not the community of dogs as a whole and what showing them is all about.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Tailes said:


> You know reading this story makes me like show dogs even less. I didnt know they had to be intact to show..
> You would think with the over population in the world that would not be an issue..
> 
> 
> ...


For the most part, show breeders don't contribute to the overpopulation problem. They are selective about WHO they sell pups to, and the vast majority take their pups back under ANY circumstance if the adopter can't keep them. 

The MAJORITY of dogs found in pounds* aren't* from showstock, they're from BYB or puppymills. 

Accidents like the one discussd here are actually very rare, because the handlers and owners are very diligent about the dogs in their care.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well, that's all fine and dandy for you Shalva, but not everybody can afford to pick up their bitch and lose all their entry fees simply because their bitch came in, and I'm pretty sure you're in the minority when it comes to those who would pick up their bitch in season from the handler....

And nobody plans to have an accidental litter...that's why they're accidents

And hey, technically these could be Sprockers xD They're just English x Welsh Springer instead of English x English Springer, LOL


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Xeph said:


> And hey, technically these could be Sprockers xD They're just English x Welsh Springer instead of English x English Springer, LOL


Sure they could be Sprockers...they'd just have a little bit different accent!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Well, that's all fine and dandy for you Shalva, but not everybody can afford to pick up their bitch and lose all their entry fees simply because their bitch came in, and I'm pretty sure you're in the minority when it comes to those who would pick up their bitch in season from the handler....


and thats why I wont ever be in the position of your "friend" 
because I won't leave that responsibility up to someone else..... 

and you are saying that your friend has her dog out with a professional handler but can't afford to lose an entry fee ???? oh please.... I know how much campaigning a dog costs and it ain't cheap... a 25 dollar entry fee is a drop in the bucket ..... compared to the handler fees and travel and all of that....


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Geez, your entry fees are $25 still? The cheapest one I had all summer was $27 and that was my second entry in same show for an obedience entry. We've got quite a lot that are over $30 now. If I've got a dog out campaigning and she's entered every weekend upcoming for that month? That could easily be close to $500. If your handler also charges you a fee for taking up spaces he could fill with other dogs (I've never specialed a dog, so I wouldn't know, but all the price sheets I have mention this) ... ouch. I guess it's a drop in the bucket, but sitll, drops add up! For me, the bigger lesson would be don't send out a dog with a handler you don't trust 100%, period.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dogstar said:


> Geez, your entry fees are $25 still? The cheapest one I had all summer was $27 and that was my second entry in same show for an obedience entry. We've got quite a lot that are over $30 now. If I've got a dog out campaigning and she's entered every weekend upcoming for that month? That could easily be close to $500. If your handler also charges you a fee for taking up spaces he could fill with other dogs (I've never specialed a dog, so I wouldn't know, but all the price sheets I have mention this) ... ouch. I guess it's a drop in the bucket, but sitll, drops add up! *For me, the bigger lesson would be don't send out a dog with a handler you don't trust 100%, period.*


Bingo......


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

AirForceAngel said:


> That was kind of uncalled for.


how is that uncalled for?

you dont walk into a lab and tell them that they are running a certain test wrong, when you obviously dont know what youre talking about. same as you dont walk into a group of people who love dogs and a lot of them show and breed their dogs and tell them, "well they should be spayed/neutered because i think so" without any REAL REASON. nothing the poster said was correct, and instead of just deciding "well i dont like them because they arent spayed/neutered" (thats just silly) try educating yourself and understand WHY they show and WHY they are not "fixed". ignorance is bliss i guess though....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well we can't all be as perfect as you Shalva...

You made me laugh Wabana xD Imagine the English Sprockers and American Sprockers having a conversation *ROFL*

Good news is that we have a couple of families interested already ^_^


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

thats great. the real important thing out of all of this is that they DO go to good homes!


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Well, that's all fine and dandy for you Shalva, but not everybody can afford to pick up their bitch and lose all their entry fees simply because their bitch came in, and I'm pretty sure you're in the minority when it comes to those who would pick up their bitch in season from the handler....
> 
> And nobody plans to have an accidental litter...that's why they're accidents
> 
> And hey, technically these could be Sprockers xD They're just English x Welsh Springer instead of English x English Springer, LOL


Well the saying comes to mind, if you can't do it right, don't do it at all!


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## AirForceAngel (Sep 26, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> how is that uncalled for?
> 
> you dont walk into a lab and tell them that they are running a certain test wrong, when you obviously dont know what youre talking about. same as you dont walk into a group of people who love dogs and a lot of them show and breed their dogs and tell them, "well they should be spayed/neutered because i think so" without any REAL REASON. nothing the poster said was correct, and instead of just deciding "well i dont like them because they arent spayed/neutered" (thats just silly) try educating yourself and understand WHY they show and WHY they are not "fixed". ignorance is bliss i guess though....


She didn't come here because she knows everything. She is as much entitled to her opinion as anyone else and if you've only ever heard one side of a story then you need to find the other side.

Why do you need to be so condescending about it? That would be like you having an opinion on vegans and me telling you that you're an idiot.

It doesn't make any sense.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

AirForceAngel said:


> She didn't come here because she knows everything. She is as much entitled to her opinion as anyone else and if you've only ever heard one side of a story then you need to find the other side.
> 
> Why do you need to be so condescending about it? That would be like you having an opinion on vegans and me telling you that you're an idiot.
> 
> It doesn't make any sense.


that is why its SMART to have educated yourself on a subject BEFORE you come up with some rediculous opinion. i didnt say she could have an opinion, but you need to understand how dumb it makes you sound when you dont have any knowledge about something and have negative opinions based on absolutely nothing


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> *that is why its SMART to have educated yourself on a subject BEFORE you come up with some rediculous opinion.* i didnt say she could have an opinion, but you need to understand how dumb it makes you sound when you dont have any knowledge about something and *have negative opinions based on absolutely nothing*



sounds like the crap i deal with in my line of work.


You are right. You did come across as harsh tho. BUT if you hadn't, im sure som'one else would have.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

good grief...

what happened to the adult conversation? 

If I may express my humble opinion (hopefully without being called snotty or whatever the case may be) I agree with Shalva that the dog should have been in the hands of the owner when the dog is in heat. Too many things, mainly an accidental litter, are possible. And, if the owner didn't KNOW the dog was going into heat (which i would think he/she would)...the handler AND owner should have insisted that the dog be retrieved immediately from the situation. Especially if the handler didn't have the means to keep the bitch in heat separate from the other dogs. 

just my opinion...but i don't know anything about show dogs...

just a little bit of common sense.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I will honestly say that I know of NO handler that would call an owner and say "Come get/I am sending home your bitch because she's in season."


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I simply disagree with your stand that the owner shared none of the blame. 

I have had intact bitches here for a looonnnggg time and I can tell you that I totally know when these girls are going to come into season. I may be off a couple weeks here and there but I know when..... 

I don't know of a handler who would have sent them home that is true BUT when you have an intact dog it is NOBODIES responsibility but your own to prevent accidental litters. 

Now call me paranoid.... and maybe I am too paranoid about my girls but to go and say that you left your dog with a handler and they ended up pregnant and its not your fault is ridiculous 

you can only enter shows a couple weeks in advance at most your "friend" would have lost about 200 bucks.... at the most.... and in the very expensive world of dog showing 200 bucks ain't nothin..... showing a dog is not a cheap hobby and like I said previously handler fees, travel, mileage and all the kennel fees are very expensive .... 200 bucks is a drop in the bucket compared to those or the cost of an accidental litter.... and the selling of the mixed breed pups.... well I won't even go there..... 

second nobody said she had to pull or not show the dog but rather to get the girl into HER CARE doesn't have to be the handlers care get the girl into her care. In other words find a hotel pick up your dog and show if you want but the dog should be in her care..... 

I would never trust a busy handler, with multiple dogs and an intact in season bitch.... I have been around to many handlers and know that they have young kids assisting.... they are running from ring to ring.... they put dogs in ex pens all together ..... 

When a girl comes into season they bleed for 7-10 days (roughly) before being fertile, that is plenty of time for someone to go and get their dog. 

To me with seven dogs of two breeds preventing unwanted ACCIDENTAL litters is the top of my list of priorities..... it comes over showing, and performance and everything else... 

Your thread stated it was not her fault..... I disagree in that I believe that she shares responsibility in that she had her intact in season bitch with an obviously untrustworthy handler.... and she was not in full control of her bitch when she was in season. 


s

Insults and name calling edited CS


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i will have to agree w/ Shalva on the fact that, if i were in the same situation, i would have either gone and stayed w/ the dog myself or (that not always being the easiest thing to do) had the dog brought home (by me) and pulled from the shows....i don't even allow my family to be in charge for a min w/ my in-season females, i trust no one w/ them.....and this i learned the hard way when i went into the hospital on an emergency while my Husky was in season and, even tho left in excellent hands, still got pregnant (by a Springer, no less)....and, as Shalva said, if she came in season while _at_ the show(s) then there was that "window" b/4 the fertile stage of heat that everything could have been taken care of (brought home or whatever)

the handler should have, at the very least, called the owner and said the dog was in season, what do we do....that would have taken all blame off the handler, IMO


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I think what can be learned from this is that Springers are horndogs. 

I don't show, dont' fully understand showing, and have no interest in it beyond watching it on animal planet on a lazy weekend morning. But I think in the owners' shoes, I'd have to weigh the monetary loss of pulling my bitch vs the risk of pregnancy. I imagine whelping pups and having her out of commission while she's preggers and raising the pups, would be a much larger financial loss.

But I can also understand trusting your handler. No one would choose a handler if they didn't trust him/her.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hey, Lorina, i just noticed....you have Gypsy's name spelt wrong (unless it's supposed to be Gyspy)


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

D'oh! Stupid dyslexia! 

Oh, well. It's gonna be time for a new one soon anyway. The kittens don't look anything like that anymore. They're enormous!


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

While yes, the handler should have been more careful. Dogs are dogs and studs will go to seemingly IMPOSSIBLE means to get to a bitch in season. It could have been a total accident. None of us were there.. idk maybe the bitch owner knows the real story. 

No, it shouldn't hurt the bitch to be bred back her next season after having a litter. A lot of breeders will breed back to back then skip a season or two.

If had a bitch out with a handler and she did come into season. I wouldn't pull her and take her back. Handlers should be trusted, that's why I'm paying them.

I wouldn't have a few of my dogs if it hadn't been for an accidental breeding years ago that produced the stud that has produced my top dogs. (in fact, the accidental breeding worked so well that it was repeated twice! It produced specialty and all breed winners and some of the nicest dogs I've seen in a while)


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

txcollies said:


> While yes, the handler should have been more careful. Dogs are dogs and studs will go to seemingly IMPOSSIBLE means to get to a bitch in season. It could have been a total accident. None of us were there.. idk maybe the bitch owner knows the real story.
> 
> No, it shouldn't hurt the bitch to be bred back her next season after having a litter. A lot of breeders will breed back to back then skip a season or two.
> 
> ...



and what exactly does repeating a breeding (accidental or not) three times do to help the breed..... ???? other than produce specialty and all breed winners which doesn't matter to the gene pool at all..... or really to the breed... 

sorry am not a fan of repeat breedings other than in a rare circumstance... 

it does nothing to help genetic diversity and help the breed.....

you end up with 20-30 puppies that are genetically the same.... 

so many breeds health problem are related to a lack of genetic diversity that repeat breedings don't seem to make much sense.... 

if all you care about is winning then sure thats great 
but if you are really trying to better your breed then doing a repeat breeding says that you got the best that you could ever possibly get.... 

and if we are all going with the assumption that there is no 
"perfect" dog then why repeat.... why not try something else in hopes of achieving that perfect dog.... repeats just give you more of the same... unless of course you think that your dogs are perfect.... and even then repeating does nothing for genetic diversity..... and does nothing to help the breed.... 

S


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

I don't recall ever asking for your opinion. 
Repeating a breeding doesn't mean that you'll get the same quality of pups as you got from the first litter. It was a good linebreeding that produced some nice dogs. 

Those three breeding combined didn't even produce close to 20 pups. The breeder did what she wanted to do and that's her buisiness. Those pups went on to be farm/ranch dogs, show dogs, dogs useful in several different kennels breeding programs, and no one has any reason to say anything negative about what that breeder chose to do. 

*repeats just give you more of the same... unless of course you think that your dogs are perfect.... and even then repeating does nothing for genetic diversity..... and does nothing to help the breed.... *

They don't just give you more of the same. Genetic wise, yes, quality wise no. I've seen a litter turn out nice and someone repeat that breeding and the puppies out of the second litter were horrible dogs that I'd be ashamed to have my name on.

I am quite well versed about breeding dogs, thank you.

*if all you care about is winning then sure thats great *
*but if you are really trying to better your breed then doing a repeat breeding says that you got the best that you could ever possibly get.... *

I have no problem with repeats, if someone makes that choice, fine with me. It's their dog, their time and money and their effort. And don't assume that just because someone repeats a breeding they aren't trying to better the breed. No one asked you to be their judge or conscience.

Insults and name calling edited CS


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

It isn't that I don't want to hear it, (you love to try to guess everyone's motives, don't you? I've heard what you said about repeat breedings many times by better than you). 

It's just that I have a different opinion from you. (that seems to drive some people crazy)

And really, no one ASKED you opinion. I simply stated something and you jumped in.

*shrugs* some people repeat, and some don't. It's up to each and every breeder.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

TX to be quite honest your on a public forum so it really doesn't matter if you asked for anyone's opinion or not when you post on a public forum you can only expect for others to voice thier opinions just like you do yours. Oh and 3 breeding can produce 20 pups or more all my dogs came from litters of 12 I don't think shalva was saying that breeding produced 20 pups I think she was just making a point of what could happen with 3 breedings.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

txcollies said:


> It isn't that I don't want to hear it, (you love to try to guess everyone's motives, don't you? I've heard what you said about repeat breedings many times by better than you).
> 
> It's just that I have a different opinion from you. (*that seems to drive some people crazy*)
> 
> ...


yeah aparently it does because you reacted.

why on earth did you post on a forum then? 

Just because Shalvas opinion is different than yours doesn't make her *snotty*. If you really think a different opinion makes us snotts then we all must be.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> yeah aparently it does because you reacted.
> 
> why on earth did you post on a forum then?
> 
> Just because Shalvas opinion is different than yours doesn't make her *snotty*. If you really think a different opinion makes us snotts then we all must be.



It's not that her opinion is different. I have no problem with what anyone else thinks about various issues. It's *how* she jumps in and says things. I stated something that had happened to a friend of mine and, and I get a lecture on 'why not to repeat breedings'. I didn't ask for her opinion.

I'm on many public forums and I rarely jump in on someone else, even if I think they are wrong. I usually don't give my opinion unless it's asked. Even in cases where the OP is clearly wrong. (which I wasn't)

And I know very well this is a public forum.

Xeph, I hope your friend's litter turns out well. I bet they'll be cute puppies.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

txcollies said:


> It's not that her opinion is different. I have no problem with what anyone else thinks about various issues. It's *how* she jumps in. Not everyone is interested.
> 
> I'm on many public forums and I rarely jump in on someone else, even if I think they are wrong. I usually don't give my opinion unless it's asked. Even in cases where the OP is clearly wrong.
> 
> And I know very well this is a public forum.



she questioned what a repeat breeding would do for the breed and then gave her take on it. 

Iam not a dog breeder but i breed other species. I know i always strive for better and usually put my girls with _different or better_ males if i have access to them. The gene pool is only so big, why shrink it? 

I'd rather spread it around and see what I can get rather than produce lots of animals that carry the same genes. Granted theres alot more involved in dogs, but in a world where you can breed your dog with any dog on the planet I see very little reason to repeat a breeding. Like i admit. Not an expert. But thats what makes sence to me.

The idea is to always move "forward" there is always *better* stock available IMO.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Sometimes repeat breedings can be very useful, but it would depend on the individual dogs and breed involved. i know of one very successful pap breeding that was repeated twice after the initial breeding.

Of course, the difference with this breeding is that the dogs being bred 3 times actually only gave you 4 pups....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> No, it shouldn't hurt the bitch to be bred back her next season after having a litter. A lot of breeders will breed back to back then skip a season or two.


I don't know if there's a misunderstanding, but this bitch was NOT supposed to be bred this heat at ALL. The owner just wanted her to be sent out and some points accumulated towards her championship.

It was unlikely she would have been bred at all in the next year due to the litter she just had six months ago.

And txcollies, thank you, you said what I was trying to say. I've no problem with a differing opinion...I have a problem with the way that opinion was stated....especially since she has already put herself above the rest of us because HER way is the BEST way.

I'm just hoping the best for the bitch, and so is her owner.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I don't know if there's a misunderstanding, but this bitch was NOT supposed to be bred this heat at ALL. The owner just wanted her to be sent out and some points accumulated towards her championship.
> 
> It was unlikely she would have been bred at all in the next year due to the litter she just had six months ago.
> 
> ...


You are welcome, Xeph. 

Oh, the comment I made about how it shouldn't hurt the bitch being bred on her next heat after having her litter was made in reference to what you said in your original post. *On top of that, this same bitch just whelped a litter of Cocker babies 6 months ago (Her daughters are gorgeous x.x), so the breeder is worried about her health in that regard.* I just was saying that it shouldn't cause a problem, as many bitches have back to back litters.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

txcollies said:


> And I know very well this is a public forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

I might be getting a Flat-Coat and Cocker spaniel mix. They are calling it Comfort Retrievers which is usually a Golden Retriever and a cocker spaniel...
Maybe they should call them FLOCKERS or Flat-Cocks (betcha that wouldn't sell at all-LOL)

I think all the funny hybrid names are hysterical. I can't remember the site I found, but it had a list of all the mix breed names...like Sprockers


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> I might be getting a Flat-Coat and Cocker spaniel mix. They are calling it Comfort Retrievers which is usually a Golden Retriever and a cocker spaniel...
> Maybe they should call them FLOCKERS or Flat-Cocks (betcha that wouldn't sell at all-LOL)
> 
> I think all the funny hybrid names are hysterical. I can't remember the site I found, but it had a list of all the mix breed names...like Sprockers


There is nothing comforting about an FCR X Cocker Spaniel.

Personally, I think the "hybrid" names are ridiculous and just lend credence to a practice that is inherently wrong and delude potential customers into thinking they are getting a legitimate breed with all the benefits of a purebred and whatever fabricated mixed breed benefits the breeder has spewed at them. But that's just me.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> I might be getting a Flat-Coat and Cocker spaniel mix. They are calling it Comfort Retrievers which is usually a Golden Retriever and a cocker spaniel...
> Maybe they should call them FLOCKERS or Flat-Cocks (betcha that wouldn't sell at all-LOL)
> 
> I think all the funny hybrid names are hysterical. I can't remember the site I found, but it had a list of all the mix breed names...like Sprockers



You are actually going to pay money for that mix

do you have any idea about that mix.... and how high energy that dog is going to be???? 

there will be nothing comforting about that mix..... 

outside of the fact that the woman is in big trouble with all of her breeders and deliberately broke contracts and lied to her breeders.... 

why not go and get a nice mixed breed from a shelter and not buy from a lying irresponsible person..... who is telling people that they were an oops but sure as heck lied to enough people and is trying to make money off the backs of the dogs.... I know all about this woman in pennsylvania.... I also know that she has lied to all of her breeders.... she is in hot water right now..... I would stay far far away from her.... there has been a great deal of discussion in the flat coat community about her and there is trouble pending on that front. 

There are lots of mixed breed dogs out there that need homes and don't reward a person for being a irresponsible breeder..... 

as a person with flat coats let me just tell you .... there will be nothing comforting about that breed..... 
s


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## Ca8 (Oct 26, 2008)

I can tell this thread turned in to a big arguement I just wanted to say...If you can get pics when they're born or of either parent i'd be curious to see what they look like since I'm not quite sure what kinds of dogs you are talking about =)

And chill out people. Things happen. Everything's okay!

Hey that was a mean post =( Just cause they are mixed doesn't mean they shouldn't be adopted! And accidental breedings happen....Some people just can't watch their dogs all day. Titus was from an accidental litter! His mother is an AKC registered Shar Pei bitch.

But I really don't...Believe in selling mixed dogs for any amount of money. It's..just wrong. She should just give them away or only to close friends/family.

The lady that owned Titus mom sold his brother and sister for 150 each to some poor woman in new york that probably thought they were shar pei's =(


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

Well, I really think the mix will be great. Flat-coats are not high energy indoors-which is great. I don't mind energy outdoors. And cocker spaniels are adorable and they too are not very high energy, maybe just bark a bit more than necessary, but thats fine. 

There are pictures of the parent dogs and the adorable puppies on thier website, I posted the link in another thread, it's www.chathamhillkennels.com and they sound like really nice people on the phone. They have lots of kids too which is great since I have 3 of my own who would love the dog. 

As far as being in trouble with whatever the flatcoat community is I don't know but whether it was an accident it looks to be like a great mix and a great idea. When I asked questions about a the flatcoats the told me that the heritage of that kind of retriever comes from mixing several different dogs to get this awesome doggie. 

And the price is reasonable...I mean compared to the other comfort retriever websites. So this seems like it could be a done deal....when my hubby comes home from his business trip he said well discuss it. But I sent him the link!! I'm think I'm more excited than my kids!


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## Ca8 (Oct 26, 2008)

Yay thanks for that link I was really wondering what they looked like!

The yellow one is soooo purty :O


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

OMG!! I know, they are adorable. and how funny they had all girls!! Which one should I pick, what should I call it.!! OMG!! I have to stop, I need to calm down...hubby has even said yes...but he will its 4 against 1!!!


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## Ca8 (Oct 26, 2008)

gotdogs said:


> omg!! I know, they are adorable. And how funny they had all girls!! Which one should i pick, what should i call it.!! Omg!! I have to stop, i need to calm down...hubby has even said yes...but he will its 4 against 1!!!


the yellow one!!!


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

I like the black ones they look like miniature flat-coated retrievers--how perfect!! I think Flatcoats come in brown too and maybe yellow like labs--who knows, who cares, I want one!!


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> I like the black ones they look like miniature flat-coated retrievers--how perfect!! I think Flatcoats come in brown too and maybe yellow like labs--who knows, who cares, I want one!!


Flat Coats come in Black and Liver. Yellow does crop up but it's a disqualification. Any color is for that matter, other then the solid black or liver. 

And that general 'who cares' attitude is why so many breeds are in trouble these days. You _should_ care and you _should_ make an effort to KNOW a breed before welcoming it (or a mix of such breeds) into your home. That's not to say you need to know ever tiny detail...but you should be making the effort to educate yourself before giving into your 'I just want one!' desires. 

I'm not getting into the whole designer dog thing, that's been discussed to death. At this point I'd be happy if people just but a little more effort into picking the right dogs for themselves. There is so much more to it then what is or isn't cute.


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

well of course I DO care, I'm just soo excited, the color really didn't matter to me that's what the "i don't care" comment was about the color they come in.


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## Filnyyena (Jul 24, 2008)

I think it is stupid to get a mix from an irresponsible BYB when there are hundreds of thousands of dogs in shelters that you could rescue.

You said it was 4v1. That means you have children. Can you even handle a dog, let alone a PUPPY right now?

Are you financially ready to take on the spaying, shots, vet bills, and all other problems that may spring up from these poorly bred dogs?

Do you even know how much it could COST? Go read the recent threads to get an idea.

I agree with another poster, do more research before buying a fad-dog.

Because that is all that they are.

Fad dogs.


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

GotDogs said:


> I might be getting a Flat-Coat and Cocker spaniel mix. They are calling it Comfort Retrievers which is usually a Golden Retriever and a cocker spaniel...
> Maybe they should call them FLOCKERS or Flat-Cocks (betcha that wouldn't sell at all-LOL)


First off...have you tried Petfinder? Here's a flat-coated retriever puppy search - even came up with a flat-coat/cocker cross, like you're considering. This is centered in my area, but you can search from yours as well.

Second, this is my opinion, stated on a web forum, so you can obviously choose to disregard it or to think about it carefully. I intend it merely to be food for thought. Like mental gum.

Have you ever heard of the phrase "buying is voting?" Just like your vote goes to support a candidate with specific beliefs and aims, your money goes to support people and businesses with certain beliefs and aims. By giving them your money, you are essentially making the statement "I support what you are doing enough that I will help fund your operation." 

In the world of dog-purchasing, you can choose to support an organization working to save dogs' lives (shelters and rescues). You can choose to support a person who breeds dogs in order to improve the breed - _above all else,_ to improve the breed. Or, you can choose to support people/businesses who breed dogs because it's just fun, or because they want to make wagonloads of money at the expense of their dogs' care. I think we can all agree that the last scenario is completely terrible; however, even just "breeding dogs for fun" is detrimental to the dog population.

If one is interested in responsibly obtaining a puppy from a breeder, one has to determine which category the breeder in question falls under. _You_ are the one to make that decision in this case; you are only truly accountable to your own conscience, so do what you think is right. For what it's worth, here's what concerns me about this breeder:

1. Christmas puppies (eew)
2. No mention of health testing on either the flat-coats or the "comforts"
3. Crossbreeding 
4. Shalva's comments. Shalva breeds flat-coated retrievers, so her words have a lot of merit.

Again, it's up to your judgment whether this breeder deserves your money or not. But if I were in your situation, I would not buy from this person.


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

Thank you for all your comments and concerns. I know all about these dogs, I had a comfort retriever before. (although it was a golden/cocker mix)And we have adopted dogs from shelters before too. As for finances--we're totally cool with that. And yes I can handle a dog even with 3 kids--and I'll probably have another baby in another year too. 

The more the merrier!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GotDogs said:


> Thank you for all your comments and concerns. I know all about these dogs, I had a comfort retriever before. (although it was a golden/cocker mix)And we have adopted dogs from shelters before too. As for finances--we're totally cool with that. And yes I can handle a dog even with 3 kids--and I'll probably have another baby in another year too.
> 
> The more the merrier!


How much do you know about genetic inheritance and how it works?

just curious..


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

I know about the same as most people who walk into the dog shelter and pick out a nice dog.

OH and I've seen Petfinder posts about Flatcoat mix. But at least I"ll know who the parents are and I'll even be able to visit them soon and see where the parents have been raised, and see how they are, So I'll know what I'm getting.

I don't trust the pounds/rescue places to list anything, they'll call every black dog a flat-coat retriever mix--cause retriever are good family dogs...so they'll be easier to pawn off on some unsuspecting person...meanwhile its another dog entirely. My friend bought a "lab-mix"...its over a year old now and hasn't grown big at all like a lab...it's about the size of a jack russel....but yet they said it was a Lab-mix. MIX--with what--You never know what you are gonna get.

So this is better I'll get the mix that I want! Flat-coats are great dogs, I've been doing research on them!!


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> Well, I really think the mix will be great. Flat-coats are not high energy indoors-which is great.


BAHAHAHAHA! You really believe that? I've had Flatcoats for 15 years, and I would never, ever tell people that because it isn't what I have experienced at all. Flatcoats are high-energy, high-drive, intelligent and creative. If they don't get the exercise they need, they will drive you insane. They love to chew things--including walls and furniture. They love to be dirty--rolling in any puddle, poo or whatever they can find. If they are bored they will bark. And bark. And bark. They will eat anything, including kitchen towels, socks and underpants. They are rough and rowdy and can easily injure a small child or fragile adult just with their exuberance. They take a lot of training, but the training cannot be harsh or repetitive or they will quit working. They are not goldens or labs by any long stretch of the imagination--they are very much still bred to work all day, every day. 

A mix is a mix. You have no idea what will happen or what genes each pup will inherit. I have no time for breeders that purposely mix breeds. Just the fact that they bred a male Flatcoat (60 pounds or more of dog) to their female Cocker (20-30 pounds?) shows a great disregard for the well-being of their female dog. No wonder the poor thing needed a C-Section...


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> I know about the same as most people who walk into the dog shelter and pick out a nice dog.
> 
> OH and I've seen Petfinder posts about Flatcoat mix. But at least I"ll know who the parents are and I'll even be able to visit them soon and see where the parents have been raised, and see how they are, So I'll know what I'm getting.
> 
> ...


Flat coats are great dogs with an average lifespan of six 
Flat coats are high energy dogs despite what any book has to say 
Flat coats can be unruly adolescent brats and create a ruckus despite what any book has to say they are not black goldens. 

Flat coats have cancer and cockers.... well lets talk about allergy issues, anemia, ear problems, eye problems, glaucoma..... cockers are one of the most unhealthy breeds in existence..... 

I dont care what any book has to say I haven't found one that has been accurate about flat coats yet....

This was NOT an accidental litter, it was absolutely a planned litter by a scumbag breeder who has lied to an assortment of people what makes you think they won't lie to you..... 

They lied every step of the way to get their dogs, they lied to their breeders, they lied about how many children they had .... this was totally planned. People don't lie to get their dogs, set up big websites and give the puppies some ridiculous name and have an about section when they have an oops litter..... 


The fact is they rely on people like you who either don't give a hoot about the dogs as long as you walk away with a cute puppy..... or are to ignorant to listen or care..... 

and by buying this puppy you encourage them to do it again and again and again and again and make a mess of it for the breed who we love and for the dogs who are merely used as a means to satisfy the material needs of the irresponsible backyard breeder.... 

you can read in your books as much as you want.... but you don't know flat coats until you meet several..... 


I am out.... 

I find this really upsetting that a person would knowingly ruin a breed and lie every step of the way and despite knowing that a person would still give them money and encourage them to do it again..... 

to me when the person knows and still buys from them is as bad as the breeder themselves. 
s


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Don't you just love it, I do a lot of Lab Obed training probably 5 out of every 10 dogs I train are Labs. I tell people that they built a dog to break 100 yards of ice to get to a duck. The energy needed to do that type of work has got to go somewhere. I have never trained a flat coat retriever but common sense would tell me that any decent retriever of any breed would have to be a high energy/drive type dog. People have a tendency to believe what they want to hear and there are idiots well versed in spewing "the want to hear garbage"


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

Think of it this way: it's like me buying an article of clothing that I KNOW was made using child labor. Knowing my purchase is unethical, I decide to buy it anyway because I want a sweater, it's affordable, and cute. 

Bad things in the world - like child labor or pet overpopulation - will not go away unless people start making the right decisions. It's up to people like you to start tipping the scale in the right direction, one action at a time.

Please don't support this breeder


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## Ca8 (Oct 26, 2008)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Flat Coats come in Black and Liver. Yellow does crop up but it's a disqualification. Any color is for that matter, other then the solid black or liver.
> 
> And that general 'who cares' attitude is why so many breeds are in trouble these days. You _should_ care and you _should_ make an effort to KNOW a breed before welcoming it (or a mix of such breeds) into your home. That's not to say you need to know ever tiny detail...but you should be making the effort to educate yourself before giving into your 'I just want one!' desires.
> 
> I'm not getting into the whole designer dog thing, that's been discussed to death. At this point I'd be happy if people just but a little more effort into picking the right dogs for themselves. There is so much more to it then what is or isn't cute.



Like me, if I had known the personalities and quirks of Shar Pei's I would not have adopted Titus.....I'm the kind of person that doesn't tolerate BS and Shar Pei's are the kinds of dogs that like to start a lot of it XD

I don't get why everyone seems mad she is getting a puppy from this person that her bitch got bred accidentally. You'd rather her get a different dog somewhere else. That doesn't make sense. In all actuality I think it's stupid.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Ca8 said:


> I don't get why everyone seems mad she is getting a puppy from this person that her bitch got bred accidentally. You'd rather her get a different dog somewhere else. That doesn't make sense. In all actuality I think it's stupid.


This was not an accidental breeding. It was done on purpose, and involved the breaking of contracts with the Flatcoat's breeder.

This story has been all over the Flatcoat community. There was nothing accidental about it.


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## Ca8 (Oct 26, 2008)

Well sorry but you really can't stop the woman. I'm not arguing just giving you my point of view. It may be stupid etc etc etc and even if this person doesn't buy a puppy---other people will. It's just how it works. It's how it always will work. Don't blame the puppies for the owners doing.

I don't worry about things like this. AS LONG as she is taking care of her dogs, I don't care if she lets them have puppies.

Until this thread I never even heard of a flatcoated retriever lol so it's been pretty interesting to me. I'd love to see what the mutts look like fullgrown (the puppies the lady bred) I think they'd look pretty interesting.

I love seeing what me and my friend refer as "Full Blooded Mutts" and what they look like as adults. NOW I AM NOT GOING TO DO THIS!!! I'm just saying when it happens and you know 100% what breeds are in the dog, it's neat to see what they look like and which breed they favor more.

My friend had people staying with her that had a fullblooded bluetick coonhound, and an elkhound. They bred and her dog now is one of those puppies. She mainly looks like the mother (bluetick) with a funny curly elkhound tail.

And Titus....He looks mostly like a Shar Pei without wrinkles. Mostly. TO me though when I look at him I see a lot of Rottweiler in the shape of his face and the wideness of his mouth/muzzle.

*shrugs* Just ranting I guess.

OH OH OH THIS MIGHT TICKLE YOUR FANCY!!!! Btw I don't agree with this at all but I thought I'd share...

The woman I got Titus from wants to make her own breed. I have no idea what she wants to name them but she wants to breed her AKC Shar Pei's to her boyfriends AKC Rottweilers and come up with some...New breed. At first when her mom dog got bred to her sons rott/X she was furious and wanted to make the dog have an abortion---but would have had to spay the dog. Oh man, she was so peeved throughout the entire pregnancy. BUt once the pups were bigger she absolutely fell in love with them. I guess. She even had some crazy woman buy TWO of them for 150 bucks. I got Titus for free. If he hadn't been free I wouldn't have gotten him. I'm not going 100 for a mutt when I can save just a couple more hundred for a pure bred. 

Maybe she'll call them Rott-Pei's rofl...That is so stupid


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Ca8 said:


> Well sorry but you really can't stop the woman. I'm not arguing just giving you my point of view. It may be stupid etc etc etc and even if this person doesn't buy a puppy---other people will. It's just how it works. It's how it always will work. Don't blame the puppies for the owners doing.


Have you actually been reading the posts? No one's blaming the puppies...that would be ridiculous. They are blaming the breeder for lying, breaking contracts, and unethical breeding. Even if you want to claim that breeding mixes is okay, there's no way you can reasonably argue that illegally doing so and calculated deception is fine. They are also blaming people who would KNOWINGLY support such an operation by purchasing the puppies. So don't throw out bleeding heart nonsense like "don't blame the puppies."


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GotDogs said:


> I know about the same as most people who walk into the dog shelter and pick out a nice dog.
> 
> OH and I've seen Petfinder posts about Flatcoat mix. But at least I"ll know who the parents are and I'll even be able to visit them soon and see where the parents have been raised, and see how they are, So I'll know what I'm getting.
> 
> ...



The chances of it being the mix you want are pretty slim.

Seems you don't know much about genetic variability. 

When you breed two dogs together of differing phenotype there is a very *slim to NO * chance that every single pup will inherit the exact same set of desired traits. If a breeder tell you that *comfort retrievers* look and act one certain way then the are flat out LYING to YOU. This is one of the reasons you find soooo many 'doodles' in shelters. People got told these dogs were to a T hypoallergenic when in reality only a very select few inherited that particular trait. its a complete crapshoot. The majority of the dogs that I have seen that came from breeders of this nature are extremely unhealthy and from pup to pup have extreme variability.


To support such a person is unethical. You are supporting EXACTLY the type of person that IS in FACT a huge part of the pet overpop problem. You are keeping the wrong kind of people in business, people who are responsible for a staggering amount of suffering.

What does that make you look like to the dog lovers of this board do you think? 

you'd do better with a PWD. just saying..


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

Ca8 said:


> I don't worry about things like this. AS LONG as she is taking care of her dogs, I don't care if she lets them have puppies.


This is the only part of your post that I really take issue with. See, to me, saying that you don't care about a breeder's practices is basically saying that you don't care about the dogs that die in shelters. It seems to be farfetched at first, yes, but _the two concepts are related._

If she's taking care of her dogs, great. That's expected. But she's playing around with breeding like a kid in a sandbox. She probably is not part of a community that is trying to create the "Comfort Retriever" as a new breed, with standardized practices and goals. That is irresponsible, and that kind of practice is one of the main reasons why Petfinder has over 300,000 pets up for adoption. 

Additionally, this woman flat-out LIED in order to obtain her breeding dogs. She went to the breeder, the breeder asked her questions about her goals and philosophies, and she lied. Her "comfort retrievers" are NOT accidental, they are the product of deceit.

How can you _not_ care?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Ca8,
Everyone should be concerned with breeding practices. If a breeder will break a contract with another breeder to mix, it's an indication that the person has NO concern for her reputation NOR for the breed he/she is involved with. In other words this breeder ONLY cares about the $$$$ to be made by selling these mixed breed pups. I doubt this person is taking the necessary steps to insure the health, temperment or quality of the dogs produced. If you'd like to see the work and money that goes into good breeding practices, visit this thread ...
Kaelyns Pre Breeding Exam... a thousand bucks

The breeder in question here is simply adding to the pet overpopulation problem. If this had been an 'accidental' she would be adopting the pups out for the cost of first shots and wormings instead of charging $1000-1500 for them.


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## Filnyyena (Jul 24, 2008)

Shalva said:


> I find this really upsetting that a person would knowingly ruin a breed and lie every step of the way and despite knowing that a person would still give them money and encourage them to do it again.....
> 
> to me when the person knows and still buys from them is as bad as the breeder themselves.
> s


Is EXACTLY why I choose to adopt rather than buy from a breeder.

Either way I get the dog I want, but I don't support _them_, the ratty BYBers out to make a dollar on a dog's life, I support the shelters these mixed fad-dogs are dumped at every year.

This is really sickening. I can't believe someone would do this, let alone support someone who does this.


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

Wowee!! What great conversation. Shalva in one of your posts in another thread you questioned somebody who said that "maybe flatcoats have high energy" YOu said and I quote 

"I am curious about your flat coat statement though..... considering that I am a flat coat breeder who hardly ever recommends flat coats I am curious as to why you think they would be to high energy"

So this leads to me to believe that they are not high energy--INDOORS (is where I'm concerned about only).

And why do you "Hardly ever recommends flat coats" 
Is it because you and all the flatcoat community don't want anybody to know what a great dog it is!! Is it because people will catch on to such a great dog, and make it popular like the golden & labrador retrievers and then we'll have Goldendoodles and Labradoodles and all those mixes...but heaven forbid somebody should mess with the precious, Flat-Coated Retriever dogs.

Whether this breeding was an accident and even if it wasn't, why should I believe you. Did you speak to this woman? NO you probably didnt'!! She has other flatcoats, according to her website. What business is it of yours what she does with them? 

Thank you to CA8 for in some respect agreeing with me. And I will take great care of my new puppy---which by the way--I'm GETTING ONE!!! Woohoo (hubby said YES). We are going next weekend to visit and pick one out!! The other flatcoat retrievers will be there too, so I can't wait to see them too.

And to WabanFCR you list all the bad things how they chew things up and are very active---AREN'T ALL PUPPIES?? YES!! 

To all: Only WanabFCR and Shalva can have and control and train and breed flatcoat retrievers...Shhhhh nobody can know what they are...BUT they'll give you any pups they have for free if they Inbreed--ooops-by accident.

Accidents happen and so does inbreeding and linebreeding, why do you insist you know it all when in actuality--you are listening to hearsay. That's soo stupid.

Regardless, I'm getting one..and I'm happy. And I totally recommend this type of dog. Comfort Retriever!! With a Flatcoat and a Cocker!! What a great mix of 2 great dogs! Yeah to Chatham Hill Kennels you are gonna make my family soo happy!!

And to cshellenberger $1000-$1500 UMMM. NOT!!
It's $800 each. Any color. Any sex--but this case--only females.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

I'm not even going to address GotDogs. She's clearly made up her mind.

But I do have a question for Shalva and wabanafcr -- are the breeders who sold their dogs to this woman suing her? I hope so. I don't know if they would be able to get their dogs back, but it would be great if a court would enforce that part of their contract.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Defend her all you want, she's known in breeders circles.

Oh, the price for a mixed breed pup should be NO more than $350, which is the adoption fee of MOST reputable rescues, breed specific or all breed.

And yes, Flatcoat breeders are trying to keep their dogs in the care of RESPONSIBLE pet owners and breeders so they don't end up another victim of the Puppy Mills that are SOOO numerous in your state. I can take one look at the site and tell you she's NOT reputable. You've been warned about this breeder I can't wait to see what happens between you and her over the next few months.



Bailey08 said:


> I'm not even going to address GotDogs. She's clearly made up her mind.
> 
> But I do have a question for Shalva and wabanafcr -- are the breeders who sold their dogs to this woman suing her? I hope so. I don't know if they would be able to get their dogs back, but it would be great if a court would enforce that part of their contract.


That is a VERY good question! Hopefully they are trying to shut this woman down.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Shalva
Good luck if you decide to answer GotDogs. I am dumbfounded and speechless. I absolutely got nothing to say as I'm afraid it would not come out right. I'm sure there would be an answer and I just don't feel like losing my temper today.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

From what I understand, the breeders of all three Flatcoats have requested that they be returned. I do not know about lawsuits.

GotDogs, Flatcoats do these things for their entire lives. Not just as puppies. As to your other comments, they do not merit a response. 

If anyone has sane, adult questions to ask about my breeding practices, ask away. I'm more than willing to answer them, but I will not respond to raving accusations.


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

wabanafcr said:


> From what I understand, the breeders of all three Flatcoats have requested that they be returned.


AGain, hearsay. You have no knowledge of this.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> AGain, hearsay. You have no knowledge of this.


Can you at least do a little research before you shoot your mouth off? He is a breeder and it is a very small breeding community. So, yes, he would have knowledge of this. Your are driving your credibility into the ground here.


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

I know that person is a breeder, i fished around on the forum. But just like working in an office--rumors run like wildfires--and gossiping over this matter is just silly. 

I wonder if the first person to cross breed two purebreds accidentally or on purpose got this much attention...or is it just when you mix a dog with a flatcoat.? hmmmm


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

Does anyone else think GotDogs might be the breeder in question?


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## Bratsenji (Oct 31, 2008)

You are all being really nuts here. I've sat by long enough just as a reader and well, its time someone put a word in about dogs in general. Especially these Flatcoats. They are not the end all be all of dogs. They in fact have a long history of mixing to get what you call the Flatcoat today.

Once called a Wavy Coat that was then bred out of them after near extinction from what all the records show.

There is a history of Newfoundland, Labrador, Golden, Irish Setter, German Pointer, St John's Water Dog and YES EVEN SPANIELS in the history of mixing breeds for the final result you see today.

Unless the dog is called a pariah breed such as the Basenji...then it is definitely about as pure as any other mutt in the world. All breeds were the result of mixing other dogs for their characteristics in order to obtain the desired traits in the resulting offspring. Plain and simple......these people here screamin about the retrievers are literally barking up the wrong tree.

If the Labradoodle community can get it right and replicate the desired results enough times to actually have a good argument for a new breed...then I suppose we'll see them next on the miscellaneous list from the AKC for dogs aknowledged but waiting for classification.

I believe the oops scenario. And I also don't believe these Flat Coated Retriever owners here. They seem too ....how to put it.....well they seem like snootty.


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

Hahah, boy if I was then wouldn't all those flatcoat retriever breeders here look stupid saying they know this and that when they really didn't.
But heavens no, I wouldn't want all the work that goes into breeding dogs and having many at a time. 1 or 2 is fine with me. My family is big enough..too bad my house isn't. LOL


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

What do you know about it? Have you asked her? I doubt she's advertising that she's in trouble with the other breeders because of her practices. 

The flatcoat community is a fairly small group, I know how things would be if a Mastiff breeder did something like this (I'm in Mastiff rescue and know many breeders good, bad and ugly) they would be ostricized and sued to return the dogs if they got them from a reputable breeder. I would imagine the same would go in the MUCH smaller Flatcoat community. I'm sure by now there are DNA's (Do Not Adopt) put out on this woman at the least as well as possibly on her puppy buyers.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

MegaMuttMom said:


> He is a breeder and it is a very small breeding community. So, yes, he would have knowledge of this. Your are driving your credibility into the ground here.


Thanks, but I'm a "she!" LOL!

Yes, it is a very small community. There are plenty of things that I know about this "Breeder" that I will not share here, as it doesn't belong on this forum, and I am not going to waste my time trying to convince someone who believes they are right. I have better things to do--like go play with my healthy, happy, beautiful, typey Flat-Coated Retrievers!









The beautiful, talented, nutty Nova. OFA Good, Elbows and Patellas Normal, eyes CERF clear, gonioscopy unaffected, acting like a proper 3-year old Flatcoat, and worthy of adding to the gene pool!


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

^^ LOL Bratsenji, good thing you joined today to put in your two cents.

Bizarro thread.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

All I have to say is that such apathy and shallow intentions sickens and saddens me to the core. the apathy of both the 'hybrid breeders' and the people who buy from them knowing what they are doing. 

I hope you are happy. I feel like crying for the lost souls who will suffer because people like this breeder are allowed to continue to operate and cause damage. Im done with this awful thread..


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

wabanafcr said:


> Thanks, but I'm a "she!" LOL!
> 
> Yes, it is a very small community. There are plenty of things that I know about this "Breeder" that I will not share here, as it doesn't belong on this forum, and I am not going to waste my time trying to convince someone who believes they are right. I have better things to do--like go play with my healthy, happy, beautiful, typey Flat-Coated Retrievers!
> 
> ...


Oops, sorry about the he/she thing. Today in agility the trainer kept calling my boy dog a she. He did it so often, I started saying "good girl". I am clearly losing it today....


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## Bratsenji (Oct 31, 2008)

Bailey08 said:


> ^^ LOL Bratsenji, good thing you joined today to put in your two cents.
> 
> Bizarro thread.



I know, but well...dog people are quite bizzaro. But just Waiting and watching you kinda get the feeling there is a bunch of schoolyard bullies here trying to tell everyone a piece of their mind......like some weird religious cult or something. 

At least my dog isn't barking mad about it. Well maybe yodeling. LOL

I think I'll start breedng those Flat Coated Retrievers myself...Maybe if I cross a labrador and an Irish Setter? LOL

Leave the GotDawgs person alone. Maybe she is getting a really awesome little puppy soon and if all the people here are really ticked about it...well they are embarrassing themselves by showing their true colors. Sad really, just sad. I know so many good dog people. Owners of purebred dogs often give them up too, and there are plenty of purebreds as well as hybrids that come from respectable breeders. If the intention is the same ...and a good home is the result.....we should all be happy for them.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I am not going to respond to the ignorant comments of the person who wants to purchase one of these dogs.... 

However, there is at least one lawyer involved in the situation and there have been ultimatums made by one of the breeders involving the return of the puppies sold to this person.... 

The woman who has bred these mutts has dogs who were sold on spay neuter contracts and told the breeders that they were neutered.... she underestimated how close the flat coat community is.... in talking to other breeders that she contacted, she lied to them about an assortment of things ranging from her plans to how many children she had.... 

Flat Coats are great dogs but they are not the dog for everyone and they are not the easiest dogs in the world... its to bad people would rather be ignorant and taunting rather than learn but the attitudes demonstrated above just reaffirms their ignorance.


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## Bratsenji (Oct 31, 2008)

Why don't you ask them to join here and voice their side of the story. I actually called them from the number on their site......they seem like nice people. And the more I see what is happening on this over the top thread....the more I believe them. Apparently they have been getting death threats and tons of hate sentiments from the Flat Coat people such as your self. Which again only shines a poor light on you and reinforces their concerns


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

ohhhhh OK Shalva...thanks for not answering or commenting to anything I said. That's a shame...can't defend yourself. (tisk-tisk) I guess I was accurate in my posting. 

And unless the contract said that if you don't spay you dog then we gonna get a lawyer and get the dog back. So I doubt they can do much. 

Accidents happen--let it be.


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## redbassetlover (Oct 24, 2008)

GotDogs said:


> Wowee!! What great conversation. Shalva in one of your posts in another thread you questioned somebody who said that "maybe flatcoats have high energy" YOu said and I quote
> 
> "I am curious about your flat coat statement though..... considering that I am a flat coat breeder who hardly ever recommends flat coats I am curious as to why you think they would be to high energy"
> 
> ...


Umm...How old are we?...5?


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## GotDogs (Oct 31, 2008)

OMG!! Bratsejni, (we must've cross-posted) that is terrible, what is up with the people who own those flat coateds, it's like they found a pot of gold and don't want to share it. I can't wait to meet this family--my heart goes out to them.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

GotDogs said:


> ohhhhh OK Shalva...thanks for not answering or commenting to anything I said. That's a shame...can't defend yourself. (tisk-tisk) I guess I was accurate in my posting.
> 
> And unless the contract said that if you don't spay you dog then we gonna get a lawyer and get the dog back. So I doubt they can do much.
> 
> Accidents happen--let it be.


GotDogs, no one is addressing your prior post because it was completely illogical and there is no sense to doing so. Not because you made a single valid point.

I don't know why I feel like beating my head against this particular wall, but I just wanted to point out that Shalva did say that the dogs were sold on a spay/neuter *contract *-- meaning that the dogs were not to be bred and were required to be fixed. Thus, the breeders have the right to sue (on the contract) and get their dogs back.  And I truly hope they do.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> ohhhhh OK Shalva...thanks for not answering or commenting to anything I said. That's a shame...can't defend yourself. (tisk-tisk) I guess I was accurate in my posting.
> 
> And unless the contract said that if you don't spay you dog then we gonna get a lawyer and get the dog back. So I doubt they can do much.
> 
> Accidents happen--let it be.


Right...and childish taunting like that deserves what exactly? Merit?

Okay so...in the event that the original breeders can't get the dogs back...it's okay that the purchaser broke their contact, which should never have been offered in the first place given that they lied from the get go, all because they got away with it? What an admirable character you have.

It is quite clear this was not an accident.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Wow Xeph.. I bet you never thought this would happen to your thread! Is it something to do with Halloween you think????? 

I am going back to the German Shepherd thread........


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

GotDogs said:


> Wowee!! What great conversation. Shalva in one of your posts in another thread you questioned somebody who said that "maybe flatcoats have high energy" YOu said and I quote
> 
> "I am curious about your flat coat statement though..... considering that I am a flat coat breeder who hardly ever recommends flat coats I am curious as to why you think they would be to high energy"
> 
> ...


You, whoever you are, sound like you are off your rocker and are about 15 years old. 

"Comfort Dog" is a fancy name for a Flatcoat/cocker MUTT. You can't register it, can't do much with and and heaven only knows what it's going to turn out like. Spending $800 on a mutt is insane. There are a lot of flatcoats and cocker plus other breeds and other sweet mutts out in shelters and rescues for much cheaper.

Um, from what I've heard from other breeders. Flat Coats act that way their whole life.  Cockers can have a lot of health problems, and I'd be very careful about buying a mutt pup that doesn't have any kind of health testing background.

As bad as it was for her to breed the two breeds together, I'm actually more upset by the fact that she broke those contracts. That's a binding agreement and she's pretty much ruined her rep in the Flatcoat and serious breeder world. She doesn't even deserve the name, "breeder".



GotDogs said:


> AGain, hearsay. You have no knowledge of this.


Oh SHUT UP. You have two experienced Flat Coat breeders that are "in" and know what they are talking about. There's a 'network' if you please, of breeders in different breeds. It's not merely rumors. There are some Collie and Irish Setter breeders that are big "no nos" in our communities as well. The breeders plainly know about their dishonest dealings (or worse) and some of them have even had to suffer because of these 'breeders'.

Judging from her website, this litter was not an 'oops' litter. She's quite proud of this supposedly new breed. 



Call us mean, ignorant, and snobby if you will. We know what we are talking about, and I'm sure that the breeder of those flat coats would personally TELL you if you asked him/her about those poor dogs.

Fine, go get your mutt. Get it, enjoy it, and let's see if you can handle a cross like that. You are so close minded that it's just not worth the time to talk to you.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Holy hijacking retriever dog.


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## redbassetlover (Oct 24, 2008)

MyRescueCrew said:


> Holy hijacking retriever dog.


hahaha, yeah this thread totally got changed...


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

> hahaha, yeah this thread totally got changed



yep and always by people that don't know what they are talking about..... sorry to the OP about the Hijack.........


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

Let's calm down. Web forum or not, I'd prefer moderate discussion to whatever this is.

Bratsenji: I understand your comment about how flat coats were developed through crossbreeding. In my opinion, there's nothing inherently wrong with crossbreeding. If a person wants to develop a new breed, that's great! However, I would want to see it done responsibly. That means starting with good stock (titled and health tested) having a specific goal, and developing a community of breeders. I would consider the Tamaskan Dog community a great example of this. The people who founded the Tamaskan Dog were very experienced dog breeders and trainers; they had a goal, and they worked on it for decades. This particular woman seems to just be doing it for...whatever. Information about health testing and titling is not available on her site. And as for them being "nice people" - that's fantastic, but not enough of a justification to buy from them. I'm saddened that they are receiving death threats - though, rhetorical question, can you believe them any more than you can believe the people here? Anyway, "nice people" can still be ignorant, racist, sexist, and a whole lot of wrong things. "Nice people" can still be bad breeders. "Nice" doesn't mean jack - accountability, responsibility, and knowledge _does._

As for the comments against Shalva and Wabanafcr...I suppose that the meaning of the post is determined by the reader, but I certainly don't feel that their posts are elitist or snotty. I interpret their posts as simply being very, very full of frustration. What they are saying should not be so easily dismissed as "hearsay." They are breed experts. Coming to this dog forum full of extremely experienced people and then completely disregarding the information here is like going to college and not believing a single word the professors are saying. Nothing's wrong with some skepticism, in fact it's desirable, but I think flat out calling them gossips is, well, silly. 

You have to understand - the strong reaction you're seeing from the people here (myself included) exists because we see a strong link between bad breeders and pet overpopulation/euthanasia. It's not about purebreds vs. hybrids religious cult thing - who cares? It's about the welfare of ALL dogs. I don't like seeing dogs die because there wasn't a home for them. Thus, I don't like seeing irresponsible breeders, because the two are linked. If you don't understand how, please say so.

Finally - GotDogs, did you read my previous posts? I am genuinely interested to hear your response to them. I'll try my best not to curse your name until the end of time if you disagree with me


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

hey guys.

don't cross rickety bridges when you know there is something lurking underneath. :wink:


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

MyRescueCrew said:


> Holy hijacking retriever dog.


Yeah...I'm a culprit...sorry


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

GotDogs said:


> ohhhhh OK Shalva...thanks for not answering or commenting to anything I said. That's a shame...can't defend yourself. (tisk-tisk) I guess I was accurate in my posting.
> 
> And unless the contract said that if you don't spay you dog then we gonna get a lawyer and get the dog back. So I doubt they can do much.
> 
> Accidents happen--let it be.


My dear, they CAN do quite a lot. I've reposessed dogs for breeders as well as rescues for failure to honor the contract not only for spay/nueter, but for failing to provide proper living conditions. In fact my Dobe comes from JUST such a repo by a breeder. 

Now, it's time for this thread to die and settle to the bottom. It's been hijacked by a troll posing as two differnet people.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> It's been hijacked by a troll posing as two differnet people.


I wondered if that was the case.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I wondered if that was the case.



The problem has been taken care of


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