# This broke my heart... CL gas chamber operator's plea



## Dog_Shrink

*This broke my heart... A gas chamber operator's plea*

This letter really got to me. I know that some areas still use gas chambers to euth. the ever flowing over population of pets in this country but this man really HATES his job... God doesn't need to condemn him he does just fine himself. I feel so bad for him. So the next time you get an email asking to sign a petition for mandatory spay/neuter and just delete it think of this poor guy... I know I will.



Yes, I Gas Dogs and Cats for a Living. I'm an Animal Control officer in a very small town in central North Carolina. I'm in my mid thirties, and have been working for the town in different positions since high school. 
There is not much work here, and working for the county provides good pay and benefits for a person like me without a higher education. I'm the person you all write about how horrible I am. 
I'm the one that gasses the dogs and cats and makes them suffer. I'm the one that pulls their dead corpses out smelling of Carbon Monoxide and throws them into green plastic bags. But I'm also the one that hates my job and hates what I have to do. 
First off, all you people out there that judge me, don't. God is judging me, and I know I'm going to Hell. Yes, I'm going to hell. I wont lie, it's despicable, cold, cruel and I feel like a serial killer. I'm not all to blame, if the law would mandate spay and neuter, lots of these dogs and cats wouldn't be here for me to gas. I'm the devil, I know it, but I want you people to see that there is another side to me the devil Gas Chamber man. 
The shelter usually gasses on Friday morning. 
Friday's are the day that most people look forward to, this is the day that I hate, and wish that time will stand still on Thursday night. Thursday night, late, after nobody's around, my friend and I go through a fast food line, and buy 50 dollars worth of cheeseburgers and fries, and chicken. I'm not allowed to feed the dogs on Thursday, for I'm told that they will make a mess in the gas chamber, and why waste the food. 
So, Thursday night, with the lights still closed, I go into the saddest room that anyone can every imagine, and let all the doomed dogs out out their cages. 
I have never been bit, and in all my years doing this, the dogs have never fought over the food. My buddy and I, open each wrapper of cheeseburger and chicken sandwich, and feed them to the skinny, starving dogs. 
They swallow the food so fast, that I don't believe they even taste it. There tails are wagging, and some don't even go for the food, they roll on their backs wanting a scratch on their bellys. They start running, jumping and kissing me and my buddy. They go back to their food, and come back to us. All their eyes are on us with such trust and hope, and their tails wag so fast, that I have come out with black and blues on my thighs.. They devour the food, then it's time for them to devour some love and peace. My buddy and I sit down on the dirty, pee stained concrete floor, and we let the dogs jump on us. They lick us, they put their butts in the air to play, and they play with each other. Some lick each other, but most are glued on me and my buddy. 
I look into the eyes of each dog. I give each dog a name. 
They will not die without a name. 
I give each dog 5 minutes of unconditional love and touch. 
I talk to them, and tell them that I'm so sorry that tomorrow they will die a gruesome, long, torturous death at the hands of me in the gas chamber. 
Some tilt their heads to try to understand. 
I tell them, that they will be in a better place, and I beg them not to hate me. 
I tell them that I know I'm going to hell, but they will all be playing with all the dogs and cats in heaven. 
After about 30 minutes, I take each dog individually, into their feces filled concrete jail cell, and pet them and scratch them under their chins. Some give me their paw, and I just want to die. I just want to die. I close the jail cell on each dog, and ask them to forgive me. As my buddy and I are walking out, we watch as every dog is smiling at us and them don't even move their heads. They will sleep, with a full belly, and a false sense of security. 
As we walk out of the doomed dog room, my buddy and I go to the cat room. 
We take our box, and put the very friendly kittens and pregnant cats in our box. 
The shelter doesn't keep tabs on the cats, like they do the dogs. 
As I hand pick which cats are going to make it out, I feel like I'm playing God, deciding whose going to live and die. 
We take the cats into my truck, and put them on blankets in the back. 
Usually, as soon as we start to drive away, there are purring cats sitting on our necks or rubbing against us. 
My buddy and I take our one way two hour trip to a county that is very wealthy and they use injection to kill animals. 
We go to exclusive neighborhoods, and let one or two cats out at a time. 
They don't want to run, they want to stay with us. We shoo them away, which makes me feel sad. 
I tell them that these rich people will adopt them, and if worse comes to worse and they do get put down, they will be put down with a painless needle being cradled by a loving veterinarian. After the last cat is free, we drive back to our town. 
It's about 5 in the morning now, about two hours until I have to gas my best friends. 
I go home, take a shower, take my 4 anti-anxiety pills and drive to work.. I don't eat, I can't eat. It's now time, to put these animals in the gas chamber. I put my ear plugs in, and when I go to the collect the dogs, the dogs are so excited to see me, that they jump up to kiss me and think they are going to play. 
I put them in the rolling cage and take them to the gas chamber. They know. They just know. They can smell the death.. They can smell the fear. They start whimpering, the second I put them in the box. The boss tells me to squeeze in as many as I can to save on gas. He watches. He knows I hate him, he knows I hate my job. I do as I'm told. He watches until all the dogs, and cats (thrown in together) are fighting and screaming. The sounds is very muffled to me because of my ear plugs. He walks out, I turn the gas on, and walk out. 
I walk out as fast as I can. I walk into the bathroom, and I take a pin and draw blood from my hand. Why? The pain and blood takes my brain off of what I just did. 
In 40 minutes, I have to go back and unload the dead animals. I pray that none survived, which happens when I overstuff the chamber. I pull them out with thick gloves, and the smell of carbon monoxide makes me sick. So does the vomit and blood, and all the bowel movements. I pull them out, put them in plastic bags. 
They are in heaven now, I tell myself. I then start cleaning up the mess, the mess, that YOU PEOPLE are creating by not spay or neutering your animals. The mess that YOU PEOPLE are creating by not demanding that a vet come in and do this humanely. You ARE THE TAXPAYERS, DEMAND that this practice STOP! 
So, don't call me the monster, the devil, the gasser, call the politicians, the shelter directors, and the county people the devil. Heck, call the governor, tell him to make it stop. 
As usual, I will take sleeping pills tonight to drown out the screams I heard in the past, before I discovered the ear plugs. I will jump and twitch in my sleep, and I believe I'm starting to hallucinate. 
This is my life. Don't judge me. Believe me, I judge myself enough. 
Please re-post as it will undoubtedly be flagged by someone who does not want others to know the truth.People need to know what they are doing when they dump their pets at the pound or neglect to spay and neuter their pets. 
Please Cross post! People should know the truth!


----------



## nodnarB™

Oh my, that's.....gruesome..... I almost cried.


----------



## Dog_Shrink

I just feel so bad for dude. I did cry... he sounds like he's gonna wake up dead some day not too far away. What's gruesome is the people that allow these atrocities to continue. Many states have banned gas chambers and heart stick euth but some are still stuck in the stone age. Let's do all we can to help him and sign every petition we can find to ban gas chanbers as acceptable forms of euth.


----------



## Alex927

jesus, that was really really sad...


----------



## Hallie

I doubt this guy still operates the gas chamber as I first read this a few years ago. It's really sad! It's finally something that'll hit home for even the coldest people. It's really a wakeup call to alot of people, probably the ones who took their dogs to the shelter.

Oh, and the very last part right before the last paragraph, must've been added because it definitely wasn't there when this letter made it's first appearance.


----------



## Keechak

Very horriable letter and I feel the same pain for him as you all do but I will be the one to say I don't want the government telling me I have to neuter and spay my dogs because they say so.


----------



## Tom Grady

The municipal shelter in New Hanover County - in North Carolina - recently stopped using its gas chamber. 
There are more humane options - even for animals deemed dangerous. 

Cape Fear Critters Blog

Tom Grady
Critters Blog


----------



## AnimalCrazy20

There's actually a petition right now that you can sign online to help ban gas chambers in Michigan. http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takeaction/900398769.

Hope thats not going against DF rules. But just wanted to let people know.


----------



## kafkabeetle

This just makes me really really really sad and I don't know what else to say about it.


----------



## Labsnothers

This is meant to jerk our heart strings around. I feel a society that allows millions of dogs to be bred only to be slaughtered in less than humane ways after a short , miserable life to be sick, sick, sick, sick. 

Those that argue against timely spay/neuter need to take over the duty.


----------



## Dakota Spirit

Labsnothers said:


> Those that argue against timely spay/neuter need to take over the duty.


Not really. If anyone were to do it, it should be the people that breed breed and breed their dogs. There are plenty of ways to be responsible with an intact pet. Those that over breed are not being responsible. It has nothing to do with whether or not you choose to spay and neuter...it's whether or not you choose to be responsible.


----------



## Dog_Shrink

Absolutely agree dakota... what should we let those in power decide for us next?


----------



## Dog_Shrink

Labsnothers said:


> This is meant to jerk our heart strings around. I feel a society that allows millions of dogs to be bred only to be slaughtered in less than humane ways after a short , miserable life to be sick, sick, sick, sick.
> 
> Those that argue against timely spay/neuter need to take over the duty.


Actually those that are irresponsible dog owners should be made to take over the duty. And absolutely it is meant to pull at heart strings... unfortunately those that should be reading this likely won't.


----------



## kafkabeetle

Dog_Shrink said:


> Actually those that are irresponsible dog owners should be made to take over the duty. And absolutely it is meant to pull at heart strings... unfortunately those that should be reading this likely won't.


I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this, but it's really what I think. 

The difference between irresponsible people breeding their dogs and responsible people who speak out against mandatory spay/neuter laws is that the responsible people have a chance to make a difference, in that they are knowledgeable. The irresponsible BYBs and whatnot are going to do what they want until someone trying to inform them can prove that what they're doing is illegal. Until then, they can just say, "It's none of your business" and be correct about that from a legal standpoint. Which is all that really matters when dealing with ignorant people. Words won't do the trick with them. 

I don't understand how people who care so much about animals can hold prevention of their suffering and dying on mass scaled below their "right" to have an intact dog. We happily give up all kinds of other rights for the common good, I just can't wrap my head around why this particular right is so important, especially given the repercussions of it. I've heard a lot of people mention that s/n dogs can't compete in some tournaments or whatever (I'm not involved with any of that, so correct me if this is wrong). Why not try to change these rules instead of fighting so hard to retain the right to keep intact dogs??

It just seems like so many people that could be helping the overpopulation problem are letting unrealistic principles stand in the way.


----------



## Dakota Spirit

kafkabeetle said:


> I don't understand how people who care so much about animals can hold prevention of their suffering and dying on mass scaled below their "right" to have an intact dog. We happily give up all kinds of other rights for the common good, I just can't wrap my head around why this particular right is so important, especially given the repercussions of it. I've heard a lot of people mention that s/n dogs can't compete in some tournaments or whatever (I'm not involved with any of that, so correct me if this is wrong). Why not try to change these rules instead of fighting so hard to retain the right to keep intact dogs??


It isn't just about the right of keeping an intact dog. The argument regarding whether or not it's better to spay/neuter (from a health standpoint) is ongoing. There are many dogs owners that choose not to have the surgery (or to wait) for that reason...and they should be able to make that choice. 

Also, for my part, I believe in education as the main weapon agianst puppy mills. I'm not talking about educating the mills themselves since as you mentioned, for many of them words do not work. I'm talking educating the masses, the puppy buyers. We do it all the time here on DF and it DOES make an impact. The way to really make a change in this situation is to take away the mill's ability to make a profit. The more people you educate about responsible pet ownership, the more progress you make on that front.

I don't think anyone needs to loose the right to make basic choices for their pet and family (such as whether or not to have an elective surgery) in order to continue fighting overpopulation. Forcing people to do something isn't the right path IMO. I would much rather see the effort go into teaching people WHY they should make such and such choice and then go from there.

ETA: Also in regards to mandatory s/n laws - how would they regulate and monitor that? Honestly based on the hit or miss pet laws we have now, I don't believe such a law would have much impact on the overall problem.


----------



## Dog_Shrink

I am all for spay/neuter programs, and I think to a degree they should be mandatory. Those who aren't licensed breeders or performance dogs (and they are allowing s/n dogs in some competitions now) should absolutely get their animals fixed. Personally I don't think that we need more involvement from the government in our lives to control something we as a responsible intelligent species should already be doing but it's the few bad apples story all over again. The problemis how to get those irresponsible people to do the right thing with out serious threat or stupid laws that would only affect those that abide by the law. Personally if I were in government I would be pushing laws like anyone who's turned an animal over to rescue shouldn't be allowed to own animals. Now that is going to start a royal mess but something drastic has to be done to hit the people who are chronic offenders.


----------



## Dakota Spirit

Dog_Shrink said:


> Personally if I were in government I would be pushing laws like anyone who's turned an animal over to rescue shouldn't be allowed to own animals. Now that is going to start a royal mess but something drastic has to be done to hit the people who are chronic offenders.


Drastic perhaps, but it still has to be something realistic. In the rescue world (and really anywhere else) one size does not fit all...and animals are surrendered for all kinds of reasons. We should be looking for solutions that make sense and will long lasting.

If nothing else, I fear a law such as the one you suggest would make people even MORE fearful about bringing pets into shelters. It's already a problem with people who don't want to pay the fee, look bad, whatever. But honestly, if you are going to get rid of an animal (for whatever reason) I'd rather they brought it into the shelter then dump it somewhere anonymously. Its for that reason I believe that shelters should be accessable...it's the lesser of two evils IMO.


----------



## kafkabeetle

Dakota Spirit said:


> I don't think anyone needs to loose the right to make basic choices for their pet and family (such as whether or not to have an elective surgery) in order to continue fighting overpopulation. Forcing people to do something isn't the right path IMO. I would much rather see the effort go into teaching people WHY they should make such and such choice and then go from there.
> 
> ETA: Also in regards to mandatory s/n laws - how would they regulate and monitor that? Honestly based on the hit or miss pet laws we have now, I don't believe such a law would have much impact on the overall problem.


I don't think anyone out there is unaware of why they should s/n their pet, especially in terms of the overpopulation issue. The general public knows that animals with reproductive organs have sex and make babies. I don't know what kind of education this would be referring to, as most people who don't s/n do it because they don't want to pay for it or because they don't think much about it.

It could be enforced the same way things like rabies vaccines (which is another issue entirely) and such are enforced. Anyone who gets a dog license must show proof of s/n, in the form of a vet receipt. Sure, lots of people don't get dog licenses, but I know my upstairs neighbor does have his intact blue heeler male licensed and I know for a fact that he would neuter the dog if he was faced with fines heftier than the price of the surgery itself.

Also, there's nothing saying the law couldn't have provisions allowing intact dogs to be licensed, also with a vet's documentation that there are medical reasons why they shouldn't be s/n. I'm way past the point of wanting to "educate" people when all the time I talk to dog owners about their intact animals and they say things like "yeah, we're getting to it" or "it's none of your business what I do with my animal."


----------



## kafkabeetle

Dog_Shrink said:


> Personally if I were in government I would be pushing laws like anyone who's turned an animal over to rescue shouldn't be allowed to own animals. Now that is going to start a royal mess but something drastic has to be done to hit the people who are chronic offenders.


There are already so many animals without homes that it makes absolutely zero sense to push something that keeps more people from taking these unwanted dogs in! Most shelters require s/n anyway, so there's little chance these animals are the ones reproducing!

I think it should become illegal for dogs/cats to be sold in malls and pet stores, anyplace where they are displayed like any other merchandise.


----------



## Dog_Shrink

I totally agree that they need to stop selling animals at malls and pet shops because all that does is promote irrespoinsible breeding and add to the over population of unwanted pets that usually come with a battery of genetic defects that MOST people would never care to deal with. What they should do is have shelter kiosks at the malls and promote adoption. To expand on my people who ditch dogs... there are obviously acceptable reasons that people may have to give up their dogs, VERY limited reasons tho. Those who do it for a convenience purpose THOSE are the ones that shouldn't be allowed to have pets. Until the language changes and pets are viewed as more than just propertly, that's exactly how they're going to be treated... as a pice of inanimate property. 

Unfortunately not many people care about a piece of property. It's a means to an end, with their selfish satisfaction being the end. So would you want to put a animal in need inthe hands of some one who's turned one over before for some sumb ass reason? I sure wouldn't. Why do you think that questionis on the majority of adoption questionnaires? 

There are so many failures in the regulation of pet animals that it is sickening to see just how much we disregard the value of another life. When you confront some one and start giving them the whole "your pet should be fixed speach" they're right it is none of your business, you don't know their life, you don't know their animal or what they do with it. I have 2 dogs in my house right now that aren't fixed. My lab (who is 3) and my toy fox (who weighs 5 pounds and has soft trachea)... the lab is training for cadaver search and recovery work... if he doesn't meet his training goals then obviously his line doesn't have the drive I'm looking for and he will be neutered by the time is 5. The toy fox, well obvious reasons there... he's 8, has soft trachea, and he's TINY... surgery for him would be a MAJOR risk. 

The problem isn't in making more laws or rules when it comes to trying to control the over population issue... the problem is finding the people who care to enforce or even follow them, and that we live in a free society full of idiots who would cry to high heaven about "my rights are being taken away". There are a hundred loop holes or ways to skirt the law. There is no easy answer for this, there is no one cut and dry solution... there are multipul failures on MANY levels and it only starts with the irresponsible owner.


----------



## KarliMom

This has been turned into an issue of spay or neuter and taken away from the horror of the gas chambers and how in humane they truly are and everyone working together to force countys to them stop using it .
I would like you to meet Jackie he was rescued from a NC gas chamber 1 hour before being pts . We met a transport to get him here . Fell so in love with him decided to foster him ourselves . This was all done last week . 

Today were heading out back to NC to pick up another Border Collie saved from the gas chambers . I love what I do but it breaks my heart to know what these beautiful Dogs have been through .


----------



## Dog_Shrink

Unfortunately the 2 go hand in hand... the over population leads to the need to euth. many great adoptable dogs... the methods are an entirely different arguement altogether. I agree that gas chambers are horrid outdated mehthods of euth but unfortunately the guide lines set up by those who govern such things state in their literature that this is an acceptable means... they say that if an animal can be pts in a timely manner (with in 10 minutes) with a minimum of trauma or torture then it is acceptable. to me to take 10 minutes to die is NOT acceptable, it's torture. Then there's places like the Mahoning county ohio pound that still employs heart stick euth. The problem there is they don't follow protocol and anesthetize the animal first or if they do they don't wait for it to take effect so they are sticking a needle with a euth agent into a conscious feeling animal. I foster for MANY high kill shelters in Ohio, mahoning being just one of the ones that gets pulled from. I see it first hand and it makes me sick. 

Until there is better funding to shelters they are unfortunately going to go with the cheapest method available to them under the law. There is no kind way to kill an animal.


----------



## kafkabeetle

Dog_Shrink said:


> The problem isn't in making more laws or rules when it comes to trying to control the over population issue... the problem is finding the people who care to enforce or even follow them, and that we live in a free society full of idiots who would cry to high heaven about "my rights are being taken away". There are a hundred loop holes or ways to skirt the law. There is no easy answer for this, there is no one cut and dry solution... there are multipul failures on MANY levels and it only starts with the irresponsible owner.


Well, I suppose then that you are resigned to the fact that irresponsible people will always exist, and that they should be allowed to exist and do as they please so that the responsible few can do what they please. You said you agreed with it being no one's business whether you s/n your dogs, and yet, talk about the irresponsibility of others. Do you think that it's none of my business if _anyone s/n their dogs or just the special responsible people on df? 

IMO it makes no sense to prevent a law from being put in place simply because it might not be followed. Why not try to come up with a law fashioned to make it difficult to not follow, instead of just accepting it as fact that the law won't be followed. This is a major logical fallacy, because it works on the unproved assumption that the law won't be effective.

I swear, all the intelligent people that could be on our side to stop oops litters are fighting tooth and nail against things that might actually help.  Just because a problem is complex doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to come up with real solutions. I'm trying to go beyond the abstract into what could really be done. The s/n laws don't have to be the only thing done about the problem, but they are something real._


----------



## Dog_Shrink

Irresponsible people WILL always exist.. that's just a sad fact of life. We can't control it, we can't change it and as much as I'd love to we can't ship them all of to some deserted island somewhere. Another sad fact is that we as a population are faced with more pressing issues than animal regulation, not that I agree with it and think it is a serious issue when you're killing over 6 million animals a year. Like I had said before those are holocaust numbers. 

If we as a society can't (or won't) enforce the animal laws we have in place now then adding more laws to the problem isn't the total solution... finding ways and means to enforce those that exist are. Until we live in a George Orwell society what your neighbor does, what the guy down the road does, what the idiot a hunderd miles away does, it really is none of your business... We choose to get involved in others business for the greater good but unfrtunately the ultimate choice is theirs, whether or not they choose to listen, is theirs. They see the numbers,the facts,the statistics...they choose to ignore it, just like people refuse to license their dogs, or get shots, or ever see a vet... it's all choice. Again the problem is getting society to recognise an animal as more than property. Only then can they have rights and respect and be treated like the thinking intelligent feeling beings that they are. 

You can install laws until we're blue in the face, it does no good if those in positions of power have no care or funds to enforce them. Until this over population epidemic is under control I absolutely feelthere needs to me programs in place under acceptable guidelines... again it's not a 1 size fits all situation... but when you look at the penalties already in place for animal cruelty they are a joke and no serious threat to anyone who doesn't care. They just pay the fine and go on their happy way. What makes you think it would be any different with s/n laws... again those are really only going to effect the responsible owner. If you like, look at gun control laws, or BSL as a good guideline... those that consistantly break the laws are not going to be affected by it, only those who care are. We are a nation of great laws in place and great intentions, but shitty follow thru... more laws that can't be enforced is just a waste of time,and money that could be actually going to help those animals in need. I am not anti-law... I'm just realistic.


----------



## K Richardson

*Re: This broke my heart... A gas chamber operator's plea*

This broke my heart to read. It is sad that in the world of technology that we live in that these animals are still suffering with this ancient way of euthanizing. 

I do believe that this does all boil down to RESPONSIBILITY. The government does have more than their fair share of laws that overstep my personal bounds and don't believe that it should be mandatory for s/n, but the RESPONSIBILITY aspect does need to be put front and center in the education department.

For those of you who blindly judge the people that have these awful jobs, I hope that the above letter shows you who some of these people really are. They are not the job they perform and should not be judged just on that. Plus, it is not our place to judge - that is GOD's job alone.

If I could contact the person who wrote this, I would like him to know that there will be more to their ultimate judgement than just what duties you had to perform at work. Your heart is what counts!

So for all of the people who are stuck doing duties such as these - I would like all of the RESPONSIBLE pet owners to start taking a stake in this and educate as many people as you can to what happens if you are irresponsible. Sometimes people need the cold, hard truth to open their eyes to reality.


----------



## Dog_Shrink

I actually DID send dude an email.. never got a reply tho. Gave him the kudos he desirved for having such a thankless task. I was half tempted to print out this letter and handit out to people leaving like petsmart and stuff who obviously had grown intact dogs that you can just tell aren't being anything but pets but then thought better of it. Petsmart is aready trying to kick me out for taking clients up there to socialize their dogs. They shouldn't bitch tho.. my clients easily spend between $50-$110 a trip when we fiirst go up there.


----------



## kafkabeetle

Dog_Shrink said:


> Then there's places like the Mahoning county ohio pound that still employs heart stick euth. The problem there is they don't follow protocol and anesthetize the animal first or if they do they don't wait for it to take effect so they are sticking a needle with a euth agent into a conscious feeling animal. I foster for MANY high kill shelters in Ohio, mahoning being just one of the ones that gets pulled from. I see it first hand and it makes me sick.
> 
> 
> 
> OMG, I used to live in Mohoning county and my boyfriend's family still does. This is awful.
> 
> I got in trouble once when I was younger and had to do some community service in Youngstown. When I was there at the clothing closet/food pantry I met a lot of impoverished local people. A stray dog wandered onto the driveway of the place and a bunch of the women there got upset because they had been bitten by dogs and were afraid of them. I talked to them about it and they said that there were always tons of stray dogs around there in the poorer neighborhoods and it was sometimes dangerous to walk by yourself. I don't know if the strays were actually dangerous, or not.
> 
> I'm not condoning the means of euthanasia by any means, but I'm definitely not surprised by it if they really have such a huge surplus of seemingly mean dogs. Youngstown to me is a pretty depressing place in general. Poverty breeds these types of issues, so that's another issue that would need to be addressed to put an end to this. It's not just the shelters that aren't getting funded around there.
> 
> Not sure why my quotes won't quote and my italisized words won't italisize today...
Click to expand...


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

there is a slight possibility im related to this person.

my mother's cousin was a gas chamber operator in a rural farming town in the piedmont


----------



## Dog_Shrink

Do you have a relationship with the person you speak of? If so ask... maybe it is him. If it is tell him we all feel for him and that we know it's not his fault.


----------



## Hallie

Dog_Shrink said:


> I actually DID send dude an email.. never got a reply tho. .


 You must remember that this letter is years and years old and has been circulating around for years, it's been crossposted over and over again. I've seen it posted by numerous different people, so the guy you wrote to probably wasn't the original author .


----------



## Dog_Shrink

it might not have been but it certainly made me feel a bit better sending it just in case it was or the poster knew him.


----------



## Dakota Spirit

kafkabeetle said:


> I don't think anyone out there is unaware of why they should s/n their pet, especially in terms of the overpopulation issue. The general public knows that animals with reproductive organs have sex and make babies. I don't know what kind of education this would be referring to, as most people who don't s/n do it because they don't want to pay for it or because they don't think much about it.


I didn't mean education in terms of s/n (though I support that too) I meant in terms of responsible buying, puppy mills, etc. You mentioned that you believe mandatory s/n laws would help cut down on the mill problem and my intent, whether or not that came through, was to say I have more faith in educating people as a method of overcoming bad breeding and puppy mills. Shutting down the mills does help, yes...but a big part of it showing people WHY they should be looking elsewhere for their pets. This is what ultimately would keep NEW mills from cropping up. If they have no customer base (or not a very large one) they aren't going to have much success or interest in starting to begin with.

When I discussed the debate regarding s/n in terms of health I was simply saying that there are beliefs on both sides...that have nothing to do with money or neglect. Some owners feel that have the surgery done is not in the best interest of their pet and most of them have reasons to back that belief up. Talk to a lot of the members of this board with intact animals. Very few of them decided agianst the surgery because they just didn't want to pay for it.




> I'm way past the point of wanting to "educate" people when all the time I talk to dog owners about their intact animals and they say things like "yeah, we're getting to it" or "it's none of your business what I do with my animal."


Well you know, unless they are doing something they shouldn't be doing it really ISN'T your business. No more then it's my business how you choose to care for your dog. If someone has an intact animal and can remain responsible about it, I really couldn't care less.

Also, educating isn't about forcing your ideas on others. It's about presenting the information and then letting the person make an informed decision that they believe to be best for their family/situation. It may not always be something you agree with (having an intact animal, for example) but we aren't all the same person. We have the right to make different choices just so long as it doesn't harm those around us. Having an intact animals isn't inherently harmful. Being _irrisponsible_ with one is.


----------



## kafkabeetle

Dakota Spirit said:


> Well you know, unless they are doing something they shouldn't be doing it really ISN'T your business.


Well, until it's a law people like my upstairs neighbor are going to continuously do things like allow their intact male into our not entirely fenced yard alone on a daily basis. They're going to chase down their intact dogs when they realize much later that they've run off. They're going to not have any idea how many pups their wandering dog has produced. I _personally_ think that the restrictions far outweigh the benefits.

Maybe actually mandating s/n isn't the best solution, but something legal needs to be done. Until certain more stubborn folks have to suffer personally for their irresponsible behavior, nothing will ever change.


----------



## Dakota Spirit

kafkabeetle said:


> Well, until it's a law people like my upstairs neighbor are going to continuously do things like allow their intact male into our not entirely fenced yard alone on a daily basis. They're going to chase down their intact dogs when they realize much later that they've run off. They're going to not have any idea how many pups their wandering dog has produced. I _personally_ think that the restrictions far outweigh the benefits.


I'd much rather see AC seriously get after your neighbor for allowing their dog to run at large. THAT'S the true problem, IMO. I wouldn't want that type of situation going on regardless of whether or not the animal was intact. That's the kind of legal action I'd like to see and in fact know that some areas already have such programs in place.

So I'm no opposed to legal intervention. I just don't see the point in punishing EVERYONE because some can't be responsible. It makes much more sense to me to simply go after those that are allowing their pets to become a nuisance.


----------



## .308

kafkabeetle said:


> Well, until it's a law people like my upstairs neighbor are going to continuously do things like allow their intact male into our not entirely fenced yard alone on a daily basis. They're going to chase down their intact dogs when they realize much later that they've run off. They're going to not have any idea how many pups their wandering dog has produced. I _personally_ think that the restrictions far outweigh the benefits.
> 
> Maybe actually mandating s/n isn't the best solution, but something legal needs to be done. Until certain more stubborn folks have to suffer personally for their irresponsible behavior, nothing will ever change.


Funny thing is when you seen 20 dogs staying at a landfill waiting to be put down, it can have an affect on you. See those same dogs picked up be thier fur, yelping and barking as they are put in a metal box trying to climb their way out while they are being gased trying to climb over each other while yelping is not fun.

Well, when you see an intact male dog roamig on your property, it makes it a little easier to put that animal down quick and painless.

By the way, in the South, most animals are put down by gas.


----------



## kafkabeetle

.308 said:


> Well, when you see an intact male dog roamig on your property, it makes it a little easier to put that animal down quick and painless.


What? I don't know what you mean by this.


----------



## .308

kafkabeetle said:


> What? I don't know what you mean by this.


Eliminate it.

Now, before you go getting your panties into an uproar, I've never killed a dog on my property.

However, there are two bitches I see on the way to the highway wondering the road who give birth to a couple of litters a year (at least). The owners of these dogs are your basic trailer trash who let these dogs roam. 

If I take the animals to the low cost spay clinic, I could be arrested for stealing someone elses property. However, if I see those animals wondering on my property, I could be in fear of my life for whatever reason and need to eliminate the threat (those two bitches who keep getting pregnant every year, and I'm talking about the dogs, not the girls who live in the trailers).

Know how many of those puppies actually survive and what type of life they lead up until their deaths?

Philosophical debate perhaps.

Fact is however, if most domesticated pets were spayed an neutered, you still would have animals that would roam due to irresponsible pet owners, however you wouldn't have the unwanted pet population as you do now.


----------



## RubesMom

It's really hurting me right now that right now it is Friday morning and the guy said that those animals get gassed on Friday mornings... I just can't stop thinking about what those poor babies are going through at this very moment. Gonna make it hard to teach my class in five minutes.


----------



## digits mama

almost all city and county shelters here in the south from Mobile AL to Gulfport MS to Baton Rouge LA use the gas chamber..

Slowly things are changing but not fast enough..

The county shelter here just stopped using the chamber after Katrina. Some rich folks decided to help fund the shelter to have a on staff vet, Who uses the "blue koolaid" instead. I hate that term but...It sounds alot better than gas chamber...


----------



## .308

digits mama said:


> almost all city and county shelters here in the south from Mobile AL to Gulfport MS to Baton Rouge LA use the gas chamber..
> 
> Slowly things are changing but not fast enough..
> 
> The county shelter here just stopped using the chamber after Katrina. Some rich folks decided to help fund the shelter to have a on staff vet, Who uses the "blue koolaid" instead. I hate that term but...It sounds alot better than gas chamber...


When we first moved to our county five years ago, the dogs/cats were kept at the county landfill in cages outside. A 4x4x4 metal box was used as the means to kill. 

The animals were taken off their chains and by the scruff of their neck they were thrown into the box. As many as 10 dogs were crammed in that box at a time, ALIVE. The cover was closed and locked, and a tube hooked up to the box where the animals were gased to death.

I can assure you, watching the videos would break your heart. Those animals did not go into that box without making a sound.

One reason why we felt we needed to get involved.

Ulitmately, spay and neutering in the answer in our opinion.


----------



## digits mama

I never saw our GC in service. I was lucky to meet that machine after it was put into retirement. My God daughter works at the county shelter here and I decided to go have a tour of the place. In the back where I have never been. 

She meant to take me out back to meet the livestock they have there and had to cross through this room. It looked like a giant steel microwave. Complete with a 3 inch glass window about 6 foot by 6 foot. She told me stories about when she first started working there..and how she was one that had to bring the dogs into the back and help place them in the box. She told me of the one time she had to watch..she didnt want to but she felt to stay there and work..she would have to desensitize herself eventually...Just so she could stay to be there, to give them some love before it was their turn.
She said there were times when they piled dogs on top of dogs..just to have to pile more on top of them. 

My baby girl is a 100% animal lover and I was afraid that she would turn hard, become detached...or even break her spirit. It hasnt..She has now become a vital part of the shelter system here. She goes way out of her way to help animals in need and she is now on her way into management so she can eventually be a voice that is heard for the county board. And she is only 21 years old. She started working there right after her 18th bday.

And she is a very strong advocate for spay and neuter laws.


----------



## Active Dog

Personally I think that n/s should be mandatory to a point, I think you should have a license to breed, or other reasons why you should keep them intact. I see lots of guys at the dog parks that bring their dogs and talk about how they couldn't cut off their balls because it would be cruel. I do not believe most people like that are responsible, but I see them all the time. 

I had a kid in my class who's family bred pit bulls, and he thought it was just the greatest thing ever. And the sad thing "The pit bull euthanasia rate in shelters is at approximately 93% on average. That means for every 100 pit bulls that are surrendered to the shelter, only 7 will survive. And that number includes owner reclaims of lost dogs."

http://happypitbull.com/get-one/overpopulation/

That is just pit bulls not every other dog, I honestly think that if you put some laws behind it that some of it would stop. Since the beginning of American history we have been obsessed with our rights, and yes I agree I don't want to be controlled by the government either, but if its for the better of animals and its in moderation I don't think that it would be a bad thing.

I don't see why it is such a big deal, a s/n law would only help the people try to HELP the animals, one more charge against a scum bag. Also there are way more irresponsible people out there than responsible, so I think that a small thing like a license for a responsible owner would be well worth the benefits. I also don't think that education will help, there are way too many people in this world, and its usually the idiots that are causing the problem, and its near impossible to change their minds. Why is this such a big deal? Even if it makes our lives a little bit harder isn't it worth it to know that one less animal is going to have to suffer a terrible death? I agree with s/n laws. It is MY business because without MY voice (and others) dogs put to death wouldn't have one.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Active Dog said:


> Personally I think that n/s should be mandatory to a point, I think you should have a license to breed, or other reasons why you should keep them intact. I see lots of guys at the dog parks that bring their dogs and talk about how they couldn't cut off their balls because it would be cruel. I do not believe most people like that are responsible, but I see them all the time.


Mandatory SN is income biased. My family never fixed our pets because my parents felt that since it wasnt something that NEEDED to be done(as in the animal would suffer if we didnt) we didnt. and in my entire childhood we only had one unwanted litter..of cats. out of the 4 dogs and ten cats we owned throughout my childhood, there was one litter of three kittens when my aunt was petsitting and Missy got out of the house..and we kept them all. 



> I had a kid in my class who's family bred pit bulls, and he thought it was just the greatest thing ever. And the sad thing "The pit bull euthanasia rate in shelters is at approximately 93% on average. That means for every 100 pit bulls that are surrendered to the shelter, only 7 will survive. And that number includes owner reclaims of lost dogs."
> 
> http://happypitbull.com/get-one/overpopulation/
> 
> 
> That is just pit bulls not every other dog, I honestly think that if you put some laws behind it that some of it would stop. Since the beginning of American history we have been obsessed with our rights, and yes I agree I don't want to be controlled by the government either, but if its for the better of animals and its in moderation I don't think that it would be a bad thing.


do you REALLY _honestly_ believe that

the type of people who keep pets irresponsibly are going to give a rat's arse about SN laws? I deal with this sort all the time...if they dont care about walking down the street in broad daylight smoking marijuana...do you think an SN law is going to sway them...especially one done in "moderation"?

i ran into a guy at school the other day. he was walking what would have been a GORGEOUS pit bull who was sooooo sweet through campus and i stopped and talked to him. the dog's ribs were showing and he had patches of hair missing(it looked like mange). The guy didnt even know what the hell neutering meant. he was seriously clueless. he was also unware of both the tethering ordinance around here and unware of the fact you have to register your dogs with the city. 

clueless. and what do you think he will be when they pass an SN law? just as clueless...and therefore uncaring. in the places around here with the highest populations of pit bulls...the shelters are still using gas and those towns have ONE animal control officer who doesnt have the people or the funds to enforce EXISTING laws...let alone deal with enforcing NEW LAWS...




[QUOTE}
I don't see why it is such a big deal, a s/n law would only help the people try to HELP the animals, one more charge against a scum bag. Also there are way more irresponsible people out there than responsible, so I think that a small thing like a license for a responsible owner would be well worth the benefits. I also don't think that education will help, there are way too many people in this world, and its usually the idiots that are causing the problem, and its near impossible to change their minds. Why is this such a big deal? Even if it makes our lives a little bit harder isn't it worth it to know that one less animal is going to have to suffer a terrible death? I agree with s/n laws. It is MY business because without MY voice (and others) dogs put to death wouldn't have one.[/QUOTE]

education helps. slowly. but it does help. ive seen it happen. Generalizing everybody as idiots doesnt help. That guy i met? we had a little talk. i know where he lives now. and im going out there to help in the coming week..he wasnt an idiot...he was just plain ol' clueless. 

and think about the impact education would have on a CHILD. take a young boy growing up in a household where his older brother fought dogs. show him weight pulling and other dog sports..for fun take him to give cookies to the shelter dogs. let him see what responsible ownership is about...and then feel REAL pride when he turns his brother into the police for dogfighting and starts mowing lawns so he can pay for a little JRT mix from the shelter..

i know i was SO proud of him. 

a LOT of people start out clueless because their parents and relatives(iow ROLE MODELS) are clueless. and then they go on to be ignorant and sometimes abuse animals.

an SN law is a cop out and its one that addresses the wrong issue.


----------



## Active Dog

So what you are saying is there is no way to solve this problem other than educating one person at a time? That a s/n law wouldn't HELP?

I have to ask, why are you against it?


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Im not saying educate ONE person at a time. Im saying put more focus on educating *as many as you can get your hands on*.


what do we hear a lot about dog training? that you can change behavior much easier and much more effectively if you dont punish punish punish....

im against it because its not addressing the real problem.

the real problem is that people are giving up their dogs or abandoning them after 

a. getting a dog when they werent prepared.

b. getting their hands on a dog that doesnt fit in with what they thought a dog will be.

and as long as there is demand for puppies...people will keep breeding them willy nilly.

stop the abandoning of dogs. then you cut down significantly on the shelter populations AND the byb type operations..


DONT punish responsible breeders who are already spending upwinds of thousands of dollars to health test, show/trial, provide top of the line care and make sure their pups stay OUT of the shelters. Dont punish people who want to show and compete with their dogs(cant show if the dog is speutered and cant trial in MANY venues if speutered). these are the people obeying laws AND keeping their intact pets responsibly. these are more often than not the people providing the best for their dogs and promoting being responsible for dogs and THEY are the ones who are supposed to take a knock when the people letting their pets breed willy nilly will just keep on keeping on because we cant even enforce most of the laws we have?



this is a decent take on the situation

http://www.aspca.org/about-us/policy-positions/mandatory-spay-neuter-laws.html


----------



## Active Dog

Thank you, I wasn't clear on your reasons  I agree that people need to be better educated. My only thought is that we need to make a bigger deal out of it. That way people will realize how important it is, to me a law would signify how out of control things are. I also think that if s/n was within the media that that would have a big impact, because most people can get the news. Media runs America after all.  

If you don't mind me asking  how do you approach people about s/n, I have never been able to find a way.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Active Dog said:


> Thank you, I wasn't clear on your reasons  I agree that people need to be better educated. My only thought is that we need to make a bigger deal out of it. That way people will realize how important it is, to me a law would signify how out of control things are. I also think that if s/n was within the media that that would have a big impact, because most people can get the news. Media runs America after all.
> 
> If you don't mind me asking  how do you approach people about s/n, I have never been able to find a way.


i approach it realistically. as in both the potential pluses and the potential minuses. 

and then i let them make their own decision and support them in whatever they decide. if they decide to speuter i help them get in touch with voluntary low cost speuter programs.

if they choose not to speuter...i talk to them about effective containment for in season bitches and intact males. If they want to breed i help them by giving them the info and resources they need to set themselves on a path towards breeding responsibly. 

the truth is the best way.


----------



## Active Dog

That site was very informative, thank you  I see where you are coming from. If mandatory s/n has already been tried and it hasn't helped as much as voluntary s/n than I agree education is key.


----------



## kafkabeetle

Active Dog said:


> If mandatory s/n has already been tried and it hasn't helped as much as voluntary s/n than I agree education is key.


I don't believe this is the case at all. I'd like to know when and where.


----------



## Willowy

kafkabeetle said:


> I don't believe this is the case at all. I'd like to know when and where.


Do you mean you don't know where mandatory s/n has been tried? I think the most famous one is San Mateo, CA. This was the first time mandatory s/n laws were attempted. It was a miserable failure, leading to more euthanasias and fewer dogs being licensed (due to their owners being unwilling to alter them). The mandatory s/n supporters do not like to mention San Mateo, LOL. 

Here's an interesting link: http://saveourdogs.net/category/legislation/track-record/


----------

