# The head halter.....odd experience



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

First off I'll say (for those who don't know), I'm generally pretty against head halters, I'm pretty sensitive about the idea of causing neck damage. Also, I had tried one once on Caeda when she was still a puppy (late puppyhood, just about full grown), and the first thing she did was bolt, then start wriggling around trying to get it off. I had to drop the leash she was thrashing around so hard, it was hard to get it off of her. 

Fast forward about two years. Caeda is pretty good on leash (fantastic off), but still pulls a bit (actually, more like she "pulls out ahead" slowly and ends up pulling). I'm 'hoping' we get to move into another house in the next while, and there are no sidewalks right by the house, so I've decided to clamp down on her basic LLW skills so I can at least get down the road to where there is a sidewalk. I decided, just out of curiosity (since she doesn't bolt any more, or VERY rarely) to pull the old head halter out and give it a shot. I still intend on working with treats on a flat collar, but I wanted something to help out a bit without having to correct her, or constantly have to treat so she doesn't push the LLW limits, which happens on particularly energetic days.

Keep in mind, this is a dog that often walks on a prong (especially winter because of ice), has had her proofing for recall done with ecollar training and easily shrugs off any aversive she has experienced. Yes I train mainly with treats, but there are a couple of things I do because she can be pretty difficult sometimes (and strong). 

I put the head halter on, used tons of treats to get her comfy with putting it over her face. As soon as I buckled it, she stopped. I mean standing, head drooping, not moving for an entire minute. I would swear she found it incredibly aversive. I gave her a bunch of treats, took her for a short 10 minute walk. It helped, I'll give it that...FAR easier to stop the pulling out ahead thing, she really responds to it. She improved a bit during the walk, but she really kept her head lower than usual (the weight of the leash maybe?). 

I found her reaction so weird! I've never seen her react to anything like that before. I'd swear it sucked the life out of her, yet I admit...it was an easier walk. I'm in a bit of a debate on whether to continue with it because I did find it easy for basic walks (hoping she got used to it), or ditch it because it was obviously troubling for her. 

Anyway, feel free to suggest whether to use it or not, turn it into a discussion on LLW, or on various tools, head halters, whatever. Mostly, I just wanted to share how odd her reaction was, considering her reaction (or lack thereof) to so many other things.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I'd say she finds that really, really aversive and I wouldn't try it again. From that description, Caeda completely shut down. Admittedly, a shut down dog is easier to deal with, but I don't ever have that state as my goal. I'd rather have my shoulder dislocated, again.

How are you training LLW? Standard be a tree? Back and forth? Click and treat for proper distance? How long have you tried these tactics and what were the results?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> I'd say she finds that really, really aversive and I wouldn't try it again. From that description, Caeda completely shut down. Admittedly, a shut down dog is easier to deal with, but I don't ever have that state as my goal. I'd rather have my shoulder dislocated, again.
> 
> How are you training LLW? Standard be a tree? Back and forth? Click and treat for proper distance? How long have you tried these tactics and what were the results?


I do different things for different circumstances. If she decides she REALLY wants something...over there, and is being stubborn about it, I'll be a tree until she gives me some loose, give her some praise then (if it is ok) I often let her check out what she wanted to go see (usually sniff). When she gets out of position (well...starts to get far enough ahead that the leash tightens), I often say "this way", turn around and when she gets into position I mark and treat. I also "be a tree" if I'm in a circumstance where turning around won't work (say we just crossed a road and there is no sidewalk on the road we crossed). When she is in position she gets a treat, and she'll get some for duration as well (if we pass something interesting and she stays close I'll treat early). 

I've tried all of these for....oh....3 years lol. She can do a formal heel really well (I don't want to always walk like that though!!), especially off leash. Most times that I try to go on a relaxed walk though, there tends to be the pull, especially if she is energetic. The big problem (I think) is that she wants to walk faster than me, it is her natural gait, but my natural gait isn't that fast (unless I'm "on a mission" as my mom says). I've considered trying biking (of course in the winter that is kinda out), but I've got some balance issues sometimes that makes me REALLY reluctant to do it, especially on the local trails where there are so many other people and dogs.

She isn't a nightmare on leash by any means, we can go for a decent walk, but on the wrong day (excited, or tons of smells, which are EVERYWHERE with the snow melting) if I slack on the treats, or verbal commands, or the back and forth leash gets tight and the prong tightens up. I just want to go for a walk for an hour without having to spin around, "be a tree", or constantly talk. I've tried using the prong for corrections once or twice during a walk (paired with treats), it sorta works, but, like with treats only, it only lasts so long, I prefer it as a back up for that stimulus that might come out of nowhere, or if I fall on the ice or something....It feels like continual yank and crank to get her to start getting it through her thick skull, even when I use treats (anything from dog treats, chicken hearts, cheese, her faves) she is so stubborn and pain insensitive. 

Odd thing is, I've walked her around the local trail, off leash, e collar only, and she stays within 10 feet(give or take a couple), will come and sit by me if someone is coming, even when they have a dog in most cases (except with the odd REALLY excitable dog, or her friends). I have to talk half as often, and rarely (if ever) need to touch the ecollar controller, and it doesn't seem that treats are manditory (though I'm still generous). What I want is a walk like that, except a little closer and on a leash. I wouldn't quite call her leash reactive, but she really doesn't seem to like it. 

And yeah, she was pretty close to shut down...not all the way, she responded once I said her name and asked her to come (and gave her a treat). She has never shut down before, or come close to it. Pretty strange. She did seem to improve during the walk a fair bit (actually showed a lot of interest in the mail truck we walked by, and sniffed), but she seems a bit bummed now, though the different experience in itself may have tired her out too...So weird.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

If she walks well with the Ecollar, have you tried having her wear that with a regular collar while you practice your LLW? Can a dog wear both at the same time?

Not saying to use it, but maybe knowing it's there will keep her in place while you work on the leash?


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Her behavior sounds a lot like what my dog does when I put a harness or thundershirt on him. He just stands still and hangs his head, he doesn't even like to take treats. Once we get walking or playing he is okay. I know he doesn't like it but I can't not use harnesses. Sorry I don't really have any advice for you.


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## Jadesy (Mar 13, 2014)

Yeah, it sounds like she really shut down. A previous dog of mine did that with head halters, he would drop his head, and almost stop interacting with the world. I stopped using it after I realized what was happening.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

SDRRanger said:


> If she walks well with the Ecollar, have you tried having her wear that with a regular collar while you practice your LLW? Can a dog wear both at the same time?
> 
> Not saying to use it, but maybe knowing it's there will keep her in place while you work on the leash?


Yes, she can wear both. I tried it a couple of times, and even just vibrate alone seemed to make a difference (so long as there weren't crazy exciting things going on). The reason I haven't tried it much is the same reason I use a marker word rather than a clicker when I'm walking....I'm no good at juggling lol, I also can't help but be concerned that while juggling I'll accidentally hit a button (done it already once ), she is a forgiving dog, but I don't like to press when I don't need to. I might try it again once the snow and ice are gone and I'm not worried about sliding off of the sidewalk. I suppose I could do the one or two time, high stim when she pulls, and chances are it would work, but I hate doing that, just like I hate continual yanking on the prong. 

Part of the issue is getting her to respect the leash boundary....I don't need her (or want her) sucked into my knee for regular walks, heck, they're for a bit of sniffing, and sucked into my knee is for obedience, but the last several times I've walked her this week I noticed her "creep ahead" has been getting to happen so often that it is becoming noticeable and really making the walk a bit of a chore rather than the joy that I know it can be.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

I have been a big fan of LLW. I've trained my mastiff to llw since he was a puppy and we still do. Lately, I've been slacking and giving him more slack. We just take off running right off the bat - making sure the coast is clear of course lol. He is good with walking commands (stop, turn, heel, wait, run, etc) so I feel that he will expend more energy and have more fun. He won't run long so we are good there. I've been thinking of slapping a harness on him and doing some canicross!


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Greater Swiss said:


> Odd thing is, I've walked her around the local trail, off leash, e collar only, and she stays within 10 feet(give or take a couple), will come and sit by me if someone is coming, even when they have a dog in most cases (except with the odd REALLY excitable dog, or her friends). I have to talk half as often, and rarely (if ever) need to touch the ecollar controller, and it doesn't seem that treats are manditory (though I'm still generous).


Just sayin' but if I knew there was a chance I would get electrocuted for stepping out of line, I'd be on my best behaviour too. Having a dog that is "amazing off leash" but requires a remote trainer is really not that amazing off leash at all. It means that she's scared to break the rules due to the physical punishment she will receive. It doesnt mean she understands the importance of staying close and does so in effort to please you. Two very different things.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

The head halter sounds really aversive, which it is for a lot of dogs unless they are properly desensitised to it. I would probably move a lot slower than what you did. You teach her to stick her nose into the loop to get a treat to start with, then you tighten the loop around her nose more and more while you feed her. Release frequently (no more than 5 treats while the loop is on her nose) and do a play break (using drive is great for desensitisation).

This is all you do for several sessions, then you start clipping it up at the back and every time you clip it up you feed her, then immediately unclip it again. Repeat for several sessions until she's ok with this, and use frequent play breaks as above. Then you clip it up fully but you leave the loop really loose, then see if you can get her to tug with the head halter on. When finished tugging, take it off. Then leave it on for an entire training session, then take it off.

By now, the head halter should be conditioned as something fun. Most dogs never *love* the head halter though, they usually just learn to tolerate it. Some dogs hate it more than others though.

I wouldn't even use the head halter for training or walks until you have been through these steps. And even then it's a temporary tool, it's not meant to be used for the life of the dog. 

Obi was the opposite, I went through a very short phase where I tried the prong collar on him, and he started running away and hiding when I wanted to take him for a walk (and he loves his walks and I never even gave him a correction) but he was fine with the head halter. He even started getting really excited every time I put his head halter on because he always wore it for training sessions. He got as excited when I put the head halter on as when I played with him.

But LLW is really about motivating the dog to want to stay close to you, using food, food play, tugging, rapid fire rewards and releasing her from your side to run around or sniff. Being close to you should be awesome. Any time someone tells me their dog is "difficult", I think "your dog just isn't motivated". Dogs have no reason to be stubborn or difficult, if they're not doing something, they don't know it or they are not motivated.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> But LLW is really about motivating the dog to want to stay close to you, using food, food play, tugging, rapid fire rewards and releasing her from your side to run around or sniff. Being close to you should be awesome. Any time someone tells me their dog is "difficult", I think "your dog just isn't motivated". Dogs have no reason to be stubborn or difficult, if they're not doing something, they don't know it or they are not motivated.


 You have some good points lil fuzzy....I've used food, play etc, and she does great, sometimes for entire short walks (30mins or so), but some days she just wants to walk faster (which is FAR more of a problem that her going off sniffing etc), she actually looks a little awkward walking at my pace. The problem isn't a constant one, but some walks (a couple of days ago was pretty annoying), its just constantly pulling out in front just that bit faster than me, she'll stay in "position" (which for this I mean, pretty loose leash, within about 3-4feet) for anywhere between 1 and 5 mins. Then its time to turn around/be a tree etc. It seems like these days all she wants to do is go faster, the one thing I can't quite manage. 

I may try some further desensitization to the head halter, see how it goes, though I'm not going to push too hard. If she keeps hating it, I'll have to keep spinning around, being a tree etc. It did occur to me a possible reason for why she has devolved a lot in her LLW and it is showing up now. Over the winter the walks have been shorter, since its just been too darn cold (or we had no sidewalks at all one week, so walks had to be skipped in favor of play and yard-romping). Plus the usual tactics have been harder to pull off on ice (I don't think I've been too slack, but perhaps I have!). She has never been the best with the LLW, she always has wanted to walk faster, but lately has seemed worse, she may be out of practice, or, like me, excited to be out and about on a fairly decent late winter day. I was hoping for a leisurely, and fairly long walk, she on the other hand was too excited for "leisurely". I was thinking of using the head-halter as less of a training tool, than for a bit of a measure for times that I want to have the leisurely walk, am not up for the constant back and forth of the training walk, perhaps for half (or less) of her walks, just to give me a break more than anything....not to say I don't involve some training on all walks, but just so I can do a little less occasionally, get the exercise (for both of us) and get out and about.

Something occurs to me that might be of help. The treadmill. Use it to teach her to walk slowly, and perhaps to like the idea....its a longshot, but the next nasty day where walks aren't as doable I might give it a shot.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

You should try a model where the loop around her muzzle is loose unless she pulls. She might not mind it as much that way.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

if she's good off leash maybe try what I did for Misty, every time she began to pull I stopped moving and dropped the leash, she had been under the impression that pulling meant I was with her, so changing the game threw her totally off, pulling suddenly meant I was NOT with her, she would get maybe 15 feet ahead then realize something was wrong, turn around and bolt back to me, within 2 walks of doing this every time she pulled, she switched her behavior to "oh geeze I need to keep an eye on this lady, she's liable to get lost!"


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Unless you're in a highly populated area, walking her on a long line is a good option. That way she can have more freedom to move around and you can do short bursts of walking in position. When she's walked nicely for whatever duration you decide on, and she's still focused on you, you release her to go sniff and do her own thing. Never release her while she's getting distracted, only when she is focused. If she wants to move faster and have more freedom, this is the best possible reward you can use, and it will always trump food and toys.

One of the problems I see with LLW the way most people teach it, is that they expect long durations right from the start. With any other behaviour you would build up duration gradually.

But the long line won't work in a city though.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> ...teach her to walk slowly, and perhaps to like the idea....


I think it's less about teaching her to walk slowly and more what lil_fuzzy said about wanting to be close to you. Rather, I don't think pacing is the issue.

But here is a thought... If she likes speed, can you reward her with a little bit of a jog when she walks nicely for a while?



Greater Swiss said:


> When she gets out of position (well...starts to get far enough ahead that the leash tightens), I often say "this way", turn around and when she gets into position I mark and treat.


I would not wait until the leash tightens or else the dog might learn to tighten the leash to trigger this response where you turn around with her and give her a treat. I would reward before she pulls ahead at all, even if it means more frequent rewarding and building up to longer stretches of walking where she doesn't inch ahead.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Just sayin' but if I knew there was a chance I would get electrocuted for stepping out of line, I'd be on my best behaviour too. Having a dog that is "amazing off leash" but requires a remote trainer is really not that amazing off leash at all. It means that she's scared to break the rules due to the physical punishment she will receive. It doesnt mean she understands the importance of staying close and does so in effort to please you. Two very different things.


This a really, really ignorant comment and shows a enormous lack of knowledge about remote collars and their modern usage. And it's frankly quite rude.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> This a really, really ignorant comment and shows a enormous lack of knowledge about remote collars and their modern usage. And it's frankly quite rude.


Lol that's what I was thinking when I read it last night. But everyone else ignored it so I thought maybe I was wrong? Glad to see I wasn't the only one who read that as ignorant and rude.


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Does your dog ever get the opportunity to pull for the joy of it? I know that you don't want her to pull when out for a nice walk, but the dogs were made to pull. We let Tula pull us up inclines or hills when out walking and she loves it. She walks relatively nice on a leash, but when we come to an incline we say, "Ok, mountain dog, GO!" and she will go ahead and pull me up the hill, (sometimes we have to run to keep up with her). She then returns to her normal walking self after the short burst. Just a thought...


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## goodgirl (Jan 14, 2013)

I've been following this thread and am learning some things, for sure. I have considered a head collar. Someone mentioned a longer line and I want to share that that is helping Daisy and I this spring. Also I tie it around my waist which I think might help because it takes my hands/arms out of the equation? I don't know. I also dusted off the clicker and click and treat when she's not putting tension on the longer line, and deliver the treat at my side or toss it on the ground a step or 2 behind me. Then I take up the slack once in a while, when a car is coming or we're approaching something she might need to play the LAT game with. And I notice even at those times the leash seems to be looser. It's only been 2 weeks or so, but I'm feeling optimistic! Because she gets to roam faster and take more steps maybe if I walk 3 miles she is actually walking 4?


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> This a really, really ignorant comment and shows a enormous lack of knowledge about remote collars and their modern usage. And it's frankly quite rude.


What part exactly is rude? I never attacked anyone. I'm just stating my opinion which I am completely entitled to just as much as everyone else. That is the whole point of a message board. To share opinions. And I am actually quite educated on remote trainers and can say that in my educated opinion they are totally unnecessary 95% of the time that people want to use them. But that is simply my style of training. I do not believe in using aversives whatsoever because I believe they are damaging to your relationship with your dog. If I'm training for off leash reliability, I want to train in a way that my dog WANTS to stay close to me regardless of what else is going on around. I do that using dropped lines, a clicker and treats
And tons of good ol' fashioned bonding. If it is between having my dog on a remote or a leash I think a leash is the only answer. The way I see it there are only two ways to make a dog do something. You can either make him WANT to do it, or you can intimidate him into doing it. I choose the former. 
Again not a personal attack on anyone, just my two cents.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Hmmmm back to the original topic, I feel your pain. Some of my dogs just refused the headcollar (my more easy going Boxers wore them for years, its was a dream walking the pair of them- and at 70 and 75 lbs each that was a lotta dog to walk by myself the days I had to, onleash and we had years of lovely walks in San Francisco with the Gentle Leader )- the giant schnauzer shakes her head and protests like a freshly hooked fish, then shuts down like Caeda does. Even though her head shape is more conducive to wearing one (then the short faced dogs) I cant use one on her. We used prong and now just a metal choke collar (sounds bad huh)-- she tests it a bit in the beginning of the walk and is great by the end of it... but she is 4. I try to get her either to an off leash romp 2 out of the 3 days we are in town, and then she is back home with some room to play off leash with the other dogs....
(PS she has great recall, just that most parts of town require leashed dogs)...


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Have you tried an easy walk harness?
I know that lots of dogs reject the head halter but most have no problem at all with the front clip harness. Also it eliminates the potential for spine/neck injuries that you mentioned in the OP.


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## shallbe (Jan 16, 2012)

Want to suggest something that has worked for me: Attention. I was having similar trouble until I started clicking for a check-in! As soon as I started clicking every time the dog looked at me, both of them started to get lots better at LLW. I think part of the problem is that they just lose their focus. My goal is for them to make keeping me in the corner of their eye a habit--being aware of me even if they are not specifically focused on me.

You might try that.

shallbe


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Thanks for the support all, about the e collar thing. I ignored that comment previously because unless I think there will be a decent give and take conversation, I'm just not into it. For those who aren't supportive, go ahead, think I'm an ogre who likes frying my dog, I thought long, hard and carefully before deciding to use one for recall, and the training with one, took almost as long as the solely treat based training that I undertook first (successfully), then reinforced further with the collar (and treats still). It is also there as a safety net. I know how I did it, and that I did it as humanely as possible. If you would like to discuss my specific methodology with me, feel free, if you live nearby I will demonstrate the feeling of the stim to you. Open discussion is welcome, suggesting that I have a poor relationship with my dog without knowing otherwise is not. Keep in mind, she never reacted poorly to these tools, definitely not as badly as she ever has to the "humane" head collar. I don't take it as a personal attack, I do take it that there is too much being assumed about the methods I've used with it, and a bit insulting that I'm intimidating my dog into doing something and lack a bond. Try my dog for a day, she wants to be near me, but she is independent and doesn't want me 100% of the time, she is aware there is other cool stuff out there to see. I'm not the entirety of her world, nor should I be. 

Anyway, back to topic.....
I've tried the easy walk harness....I can't get it adjusted to not twist around without having it REALLY tight around her chest (the barrel part of the chest, vertical, not horizontal if you understand what I mean), and it concerns me that it would compress her chest too much and be uncomfortable (perhaps bother her breathing). She kept stepping high enough to get the leash under her belly too if there was any slack...it became more frustrating than useful. 

I do have the model that is loose around the nose unless pulled (I think if it was tight she would go bonkers rather than just stand still). 

Any time I give her some speed for a while, reining her back in is a heck of a chore.....as for the pulling, I'm reluctant to do that unless she is wearing a proper pulling harness, or at least a harness (which I found early on is a recipe for NOT getting a LLW at all, plus she is strong enough to drag me wherever she wants if she really decides to go...though I could keep the ecollar on for emergencies).

I do walk her either leashless in safe places, or if there is a chance that we'll run into someone, I use a long line or flexi....the thing is I'm trying to teach her to stay closer, and for longer than a couple minutes at a time (consistently so....some days she does SO good, others not so much..which is my huge frustration). She doesn't pull at all if she has say 10 feet, but a 6 footer doesn't quite cut it. The thing is I kind of need her to get better on the shorter leash for longer periods...I mentioned we might move to an area that has no really close sidewalk (fairly quiet road, but not quiet enough for my taste), so I want to be able to (without constant reminders) to get to the sidewalk further down...which means she needs to walk close. I suppose I could get her to do a formal heel for that stretch, but I really don't like doing that unless I have to (I find it awkward walking with her right on my knee). If it weren't for the need to get her to walk closer, honestly, the way she walks on a longer leash would be plenty good for us...

Perhaps what I should be doing is giving her either a good jaunt/play/tug session (or even run on the treadmill) before a walk, just to get some excess energy out before trying to do a leisurely walk. It might be my routine of get home, potty break, snack for me and walk Caeda that is getting her in the wrong mindset for a plain old regular walk (as opposed to a run around and sniff the entire world and all it contains walk).


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Greater Swiss said:


> I'm not the entirety of her world, nor should I be.


 Actually, yes, you should be ... that is, if your goal is to teach her strong LLW skills without the use of aversives. It'll certainly help. You should occasionally release her from your world, too, but always on your own terms not hers. 




> It helped, I'll give it that...FAR easier to stop the pulling out ahead thing, she really responds to it.


If I had to choose between the devil and the deep blue sea* ? I'd use the head halter.



* prong collar, e collar, head halter

not deliberately trying to 'demonize' these tools, lol, just an expression


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I`m not a fan of head collars either,I while back I had a dog trainer force one on me because it was supposedly more humane than a prong collar. My dog just had this eternal hatred of it and would constantly scrape his head against me or ram into other people and objects to try to get it off. The trainer thought that was cute but I didn't,I was kind of worrier that he would injure his eyes from it. I now use a martingale collar,not really a training collar but I find it more helpful than a flat collar.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

It does not matter one little iota what WE think about head halters, prong collars, e-collars, harnesses, or any other training or management tool. What matters is what the DOG thinks. The dog is the one wearing the thing, not us.

If your dog hates the head halter, it's aversive, no matter how wonderfully humane you or anyone else thinks it is, and even if lots of other dogs don't mind it. If your dog is fine with a prong collar, e-collar, or whatever, it's not aversive, even if the whole world thinks it's a torture device.

Edited to add: generic "you"


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Whenever I start a dog using a head collar, I will use two leashes. One is attached to the head collar and one is attached to the neck collar (whatever type of neck collar you chose is up to you). I put no pressure on the head collar as long as the dog is walking nicely. I will use the head collar leash when the dog pulls. I find by doing it this way the dog does not freak out too much from the strange pressure on the nose or the way the training device steers the dog. I will walk this way several times and each time depending less on the 2nd collar leash and more on the head collar leash. 

When a dog pulls that not only puts your dog in danger but you also. I do not blame you for trying to stop the pull. Hopefully the pull stops soon for you


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Actually, yes, you should be ... that is, if your goal is to teach her strong LLW skills without the use of aversives. It'll certainly help. You should occasionally release her from your world, too, but always on your own terms not hers.


I'll clarify a bit about being the entirety of her world. I should be important, and worth attention (and given it when I ask for it!!), I just was referring to the independence and curiosity she has that I so love about her. If she looked to me every time she wanted to sniff a blade of grass, she wouldn't be Caeda, sometimes she needs to focus on something else, and I'm ok with her noticing something and showing interest, though you are right, it does need to be on my terms, which it usually is, especially if my terms include giving her attention back to me when I ask. 
Good expression by the way....lol, I get it, not demonizing, no worries there, heck, I demonize the tools in the wrong hands....Admittedly I may not always be the right hands, but I do try to be, and kick myself when I'm not....part of the reason I considered the head halter, I was starting to see my frustration and realized going prong/ecollar on this is something I'd prefer to avoid if I'm frustrated.



Shep said:


> It does not matter one little iota what WE think about head halters, prong collars, e-collars, harnesses, or any other training or management tool. What matters is what the DOG thinks. The dog is the one wearing the thing, not us.


Brilliantly put Shep, that is exactly how I feel about it! The attitude of most of the rest of the world about head halters vs some of the torture devices/tools that I use is part of the reason I was so incredibly baffled by her response to it! I have NEVER seen her even close to shut down, and although it was easy to bring her out of it, she just looked so darn reprimanded. I put a lot of thought into using most of the tools I've used, and at first I felt like a demon, even using the mildest methods possible, until I saw she was fine....more than fine, she flourished under the extra freedom she had to run once her recall got really good...then I put the head halter on and I was expecting a little annoyance at it, and then fairly content on a pretty awesome walk. Such an opposite reaction to any other tools I've used. 

luv mi pets....GREAT tip on the two leashes!! If I do manage to desensitize her to the head collar I'll definitely try that!, she very obviously finds the tug of it at very least annoying (which is where I hope to get it to at least...rather than truly aversive like it seems to be now), and it might be just the extra bump I need. She isn't a horrid puller in terms of being dangerous (though she does have the ability, hence using the prong on walks....just in case something unexpected causes her to really go for it....only ever happened once so far). It is just so darn annoying on a regular length leash. It is bizzare to me how on the long line, when it tenses up, I just have to give a twitch on it (with a flat collar not a prong), say "EH!" and she slacks off...regular leash, nope. 

I suppose another possibility is going back to absolute square one with LLW....starting with silky lead in the house, then the yard, then the sidewalk, all walks training walks until she gets things down (extra exercise provided to make up for the lack or minimal walks). Re train her on the regular lead rather than using this weird "excellent off lead or long line" thing and "good formal heel" combination that I was thinking of cobbling together into a good LLW. I was hoping the head halter might allow for some decent saunters down the road....while I went back to basics for training walks every other day or something, but maybe I should ditch the idea all together of leisurely/fun walks until her and I can pull this back together. Not just her starting from the beginning, but me too....she had things pretty good at one point, and something slipped, dunno what, me, her, circumstances, doesn't really matter (aside from preventing a repeat), I just have to fix it is all, and try to ignore that slight feeling of failure having to do it all over again


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Have you tried an easy walk harness?
> I know that lots of dogs reject the head halter but most have no problem at all with the front clip harness. Also it eliminates the potential for spine/neck injuries that you mentioned in the OP.


While a front clip harness is often less aversive, newer research does show some shoulder and spine issues from wearing them long term, as they restrict shoulder movement and makes the dog shift more weight to their hind legs.

Personally I prefer the head halter over no pull harnesses, and I've never seen any research that suggests dogs who wear head halters are more prone to neck injuries. Dogs' necks are VERY strong, they are designed for kill shakes.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> While a front clip harness is often less aversive, newer research does show some shoulder and spine issues from wearing them long term, as they restrict shoulder movement and makes the dog shift more weight to their hind legs.
> 
> Personally I prefer the head halter over no pull harnesses, and I've never seen any research that suggests dogs who wear head halters are more prone to neck injuries. Dogs' necks are VERY strong, they are designed for kill shakes.


I do find she walks awkwardly on the front clip harness....along with the bad fit and twisting of it, that's why I'm not zooming in on that. I do think the head halters can cause injury to the neck in some circumstances. Caeda used to bolt up until about a year old when I got her pretty good on leash (as in no craziness etc, down to the minor annoying pulling). That bolting is my problem with them, strong or not, unnatural angle with some momentum....yikes. I decided to try it now because she doesn't bolt, and I will say, aside from her obvious aversion to it, she walked really well on it and I had no worries of neck injuries. I don't like the idea of people just tossing them on all dogs that walk poorly because of the bolting potential....like any tool they do have their appropriate application though, and Caeda being decent but not perfect on a regular leash seemed like a perfect application.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> The way I see it there are only two ways to make a dog do something. You can either make him WANT to do it, or you can intimidate him into doing it. I choose the former.


LOL well if that's you how see it, a simple black and white dichotomy, than no wonder you think that. It is NOT "treats, clicker, bonding OR intimidation and remote collars" but again... if that's what you think, no wonder your opinions are what they are. If you think remote collars rely on "intimidation" and being "electrocuted" for "stepping out of line" than your education on their use is of great interest to me because it runs directly contrary to mine and that of those who use remote collars successfully and safely.

Also, you cannot train a dog, any dog, without using some aversives to some degree. That isn't even arguable, honestly. It is how, when, and why the aversives are applied that varies, but all dog training eventually involves some form of aversive, be it ignoring the dog, removing food, removing the dog from a situation, preventing access to a desired toy. No dog is trained without aversives whatsoever. 

But it doesn't really matter. I'm _not _ok with keeping my high energy, high drive dog on leash for her whole life. That is amoral to me and a great example of human conceit - "I'd rather not use this tool so I can feel good about myself, than cause my dog minimal discomfort so that she can experience life beyond a 6ft leash." Hey, whatever, we all make these choices but I find the idea of keeping a dog on leash for life pretty revolting. To each his own, just my two cents, etc etc though. lol


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Her reaction sounds like Mia's reaction to me putting her jacket on her. Or how several of the pups have reacted to just a leash being clipped on them the first time (either goes one of two ways- flip out and make a scene or shut down and don't move). I do think there may be a chance if you go slower with her that it would progress to the point where she isn't shutting down. Using Mia's jacket as an example she will stop and freeze, head down for a while then she gets over it. That said, I'm not a head collar fan at all for reasons already mentioned. If the prong was working, I'd go back to that. Personally.

That said, I don't think just because a dog finds something 'aversive' at first means that we should just stop and never use that again. I think sometimes it's just best to let the dog work it out and get over it. Not saying you should here but the whole reaction of 'omg dog finds this unpleasant, STOP!' leaves me feeling that way.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> The way I see it there are only two ways to make a dog do something. You can either make him WANT to do it, or you can intimidate him into doing it. I choose the former.





Emily1188 said:


> LOL well if that's you how see it, a simple black and white dichotomy, than no wonder you think that. It is NOT "treats, clicker, bonding OR intimidation and remote collars" but again... if that's what you think, no wonder your opinions are what they are.


I don't care much for the word "make", but all nitpicking aside, I'd be inclined to agree with Nicole's statement. There's reinforcement and then there's punishment. What else is there?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

petpeeve said:


> There's reinforcement and then there's punishment. What else is there?


Extinction, and classical behavior (which is more of the problem here). You can't get to punishment and/or reinforcement unless the dog can voluntarily offer the behavior. The dog simply has not been conditioned enough to the head halter, for it to be useful.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> That said, I don't think just because a dog finds something 'aversive' at first means that we should just stop and never use that again. I think sometimes it's just best to let the dog work it out and get over it. Not saying you should here but the whole reaction of 'omg dog finds this unpleasant, STOP!' leaves me feeling that way.


I get you on this big time....actually, my DH things that using the head halter on Caeda might be good for her....after some desensitization of course, neither of us want to make her that horribly uncomfortable. Though, DH says, and he is right, that she is a bit of a brat, and used to getting her own way to a degree, especially since she has become reasonably well trained. Yes, she does ask for things nicely (for the most part...no dog is perfect), pets, an out in the yard, a treat, another tug, but she does usually, in the end, get what she wants without crazy amounts of effort since she knows many of the appropriate ways to ask for those things...he thinks (and I am wavering a bit, but think I agree), working through this with her might be the kind of challenge that she needs. 



petpeeve said:


> What else is there?


Curbside Prophet pointed it out well. My DH once again, discussing this stuff with him, came up with another "gem of wisdom" (take that laughingly if you like lol  ). He suggested, imagine you wanted 20 bucks.....how do you motivate someone, say a stranger, to give you 20 bucks? Just random people that you could walk up to, some will give you money for a sop story (some would do it only if you were crying while telling it), others might not go for that, perhaps hold a gun to them? a knife? Perhaps be honest and say you just need it for whatever? Offer to do something for them in return? Some people would give 20 dollars to a stranger (or someone they know) because of any of the above listed motivations. Now, what kind of motivations are those? Some are obviously aversive (threatening with a gun or a knife), some are less obviously so (some people HATE to see people crying, how many kids cry to get their way), some people will do it just to feel good because they know it will please/help the person, of course there are the people who will only offer 5 dollars....well, the motivation wasn't adequite to get the desired amount right.....anyway, point is that motivations vary for everyone, as motivations do for dogs. Never mind the scientific classifications of these things, think of the interaction involved. I'm not trying to anthropomorphise, but I am trying to point out that each command that we give our pets, and all of our training is an interaction, and how we approach and manipulate those interactions (aversively or rewardingly) can make a difference. 

Yes, my DH's analogy is a long and winding one, but I found it kind of intriguing. I've always thought that training and practice is more than just a black and white scientific operation comprised of R+/R- P+/P-, (not that those aren't valid and important) it has its grey areas and its nuances. Our dogs, though definitely aren't human, are thinking and feeling beings, and I think the interaction part of things is what might make some of those great trainers out there truly great (not the ones that mostly theorize, the ones that hands on just do some crazy magic). What to do with my theory on that I don't know though lol....if only!


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

As usual....after reading all the minutiae of subsequent posts...I go back to the original post...she wants opinions on the head collar, even though she says she's generally against head collars...but then wants to remind us that she also regularly uses a prong collar, but gosh...only in winter? But she now want to "re-invoke" the head collar even though she's had bad experiences with it. This, after telling us her dog "used" to be good on lead...but has over time begun pulling. Hmmm. And in defense of Nicole...this dog is GREAT off lead due to the E-collar....for sure...for all the reasons Nicole said. The original poster has absolutely no control over this dog except through external means. 

This isn't a dog problem or a collar problem. This is a human problem I've seen dogs who have been subjected to head collar over many years....they have scars across their muzzles and below their eyes... that are permanent. Head collars shouldn't be a way of life....prong collars shouldn't be a way of life...if people think of them as such...they don't truly understand dogs. E-collar have a place in a narrow training view to save a dog's life...it shouldn't be thought of as an everyday convenience tool.

Dog training isn't as fleeting as the internet is today. There isn't a panacea. Once I leash train my dogs, and they begin to "test the boundaries" by pulling here or there....I don't wait until they start consistently pull. I correct the issue before it is even an issue. I'm disturbed by the original poster somehow trying to "blame" her dog for its increasing pulling...thus she is now asking about a head harness...Guess what! When my dogs, who I "think" are leash trained not to pull and they try to pull? I simply STOP walking...I do this a few times and it reminds them I am in control, not them. There IS no actual correction...I don't think about a new training device...I simply outwit them for a few minutes. I wonder why this simple technique...which really isn't a technique...but an understanding of dog behavior...isn't talked about more. 

Actually...I think I know why...it is because people don't want to take the time to actually understand something. They want a device or a word or a correction technique that someone else gives them so they don't have to be BOTHERED by truly understanding the wonderful creature at the end of the leash. Maybe taking the time to truly understand will take away the precious time they think the have to have to text, and tweet and keep their face plastered to a screen in front of their face?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Justdogs said:


> The original poster has absolutely no control over this dog except through external means.


That's an extreme statement to be making just based on this one thread.



Justdogs said:


> When my dogs, who I "think" are leash trained not to pull and they try to pull? I simply STOP walking...I do this a few times and it reminds them I am in control, not them. There IS no actual correction...I don't think about a new training device...I simply outwit them for a few minutes. I wonder why this simple technique...which really isn't a technique...but an understanding of dog behavior...isn't talked about more.


This technique works for some owners and dogs, and not for others. True understanding of dog behavior requires one to recognize how different dogs respond to a variety of different methods. Good for you, that your dogs responded positively to stop-and-go. However, there are people out there, some who do understand dog behavior, who use prongs, head halters, no-pull harnesses... the whole spectrum of techniques and tools that exist out there.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Canyx said:


> That's an extreme statement to be making just based on this one thread.


Thank you for pointing this out Canyx, far shorter and sweeter than my thoughts. 



Canyx said:


> This technique works for some owners and dogs, and not for others. True understanding of dog behavior requires one to recognize how different dogs respond to a variety of different methods. Good for you, that your dogs responded positively to stop-and-go. However, there are people out there, some who do understand dog behavior, who use prongs, head halters, no-pull harnesses... the whole spectrum of techniques and tools that exist out there.


I guess when the minutae of the previous posts were being examined it was missed that the technique of stopping is part of my methods. 


Oh, as for the earlier comment about using the prong only in winter...I never said that, I said especially in winter, I use it when circumstances call for it year round. I also already remarked on my willingness to discuss my ecollar techniques (or any other). I'd also love to see where I blame Caeda for her pulling. I perhaps blame the fact that I do think we have a difference in preferred pace...but I never said I blamed her...I think I even pointed fault at myself a few times.


> Not just her starting from the beginning, but me too....she had things pretty good at one point, and something slipped, dunno what, me, her, circumstances, doesn't really matter (aside from preventing a repeat), I just have to fix it is all, and try to ignore that slight feeling of failure having to do it all over again


 Don't think this is blaming. So much for examining minutae.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<As usual....after reading all the minutiae of subsequent posts...I go back to the original post...she wants opinions on the head collar, even though she says she's generally against head collars...but then wants to remind us that she also regularly uses a prong collar, but gosh...only in winter? But she now want to "re-invoke" the head collar even though she's had bad experiences with it. This, after telling us her dog "used" to be good on lead...but has over time begun pulling. Hmmm. And in defense of Nicole...this dog is GREAT off lead due to the E-collar....for sure...for all the reasons Nicole said. The original poster has absolutely no control over this dog except through external means. 

This isn't a dog problem or a collar problem. This is a human problem I've seen dogs who have been subjected to head collar over many years....they have scars across their muzzles and below their eyes... that are permanent. Head collars shouldn't be a way of life....prong collars shouldn't be a way of life...if people think of them as such...they don't truly understand dogs. E-collar have a place in a narrow training view to save a dog's life...it shouldn't be thought of as an everyday convenience tool.

Dog training isn't as fleeting as the internet is today. There isn't a panacea. Once I leash train my dogs, and they begin to "test the boundaries" by pulling here or there....I don't wait until they start consistently pull. I correct the issue before it is even an issue. I'm disturbed by the original poster somehow trying to "blame" her dog for its increasing pulling...thus she is now asking about a head harness...Guess what! When my dogs, who I "think" are leash trained not to pull and they try to pull? I simply STOP walking...I do this a few times and it reminds them I am in control, not them. There IS no actual correction...I don't think about a new training device...I simply outwit them for a few minutes. I wonder why this simple technique...which really isn't a technique...but an understanding of dog behavior...isn't talked about more. 

Actually...I think I know why...it is because people don't want to take the time to actually understand something. They want a device or a word or a correction technique that someone else gives them so they don't have to be BOTHERED by truly understanding the wonderful creature at the end of the leash. Maybe taking the time to truly understand will take away the precious time they think the have to have to text, and tweet and keep their face plastered to a screen in front of their face? >>


The above post (<< >>) is my own. And I felt a need to post the entire thing I wrote because wow....what a snarky thing to write. I'm not on the computer much...so I don't remember the state of mind I was in when wrote that, but all I can do is apologize. I must have been pretty pissed off at something. However, no excuse...today I was perusing other topics I might have been involved with and I ran across this whole mess. when I read the above quoted post, I actually didn't realize I was the one who wrote it because I was thinking "wow...what a "B____"! Except, then I saw who wrote it. Yikes. 

Greater Swiss...all I can do is apologize...I was spewing instead of trying to help. When I read your original post...(the second time) I had a more cogent response in mind, but then I read what I wrote (before I realized that I had actually written it). So yep...no wonder it evoked what it did. 

So...if I may...let me try again. And yes I know this is very related to another thread we've been involved in...but perhaps the very specific problem you have, it may make more sense. I'll start off my saying this...as given to me by the first trainer who profoundly affected me regarding positive reinforcement training....and she said...regardless whether we use corrections or positive...etc etc...what WE think we teaching the dog...is not always what the dog is actually learning!

So with that in mind...strictly from a TRAINING sense....I was CONVINCED early in my years that if a dog didn't perform to standard it was simply a matter of when a correction was given or the intensity of correction given. When I discovered positive reinforcement....it was, oddly enough, learning the timing when to give the reward, and even the intensity of a reward. I went through the same thing when I discovered raw feeding....it is human nature when we become enamored with an idea to be "all in" and reject all else. Absolutely, if I want to train my dog to heel for a specific position in a certain environment, I'm all about positive reinforcement (and negative punishment....which sounds horrible, but is basically simply withholding the positive). But after a couple of years of clinging to the positive reinforcement mantra...there is actual "real life" which means living with dogs when they aren't under the auspices of "training." How do you "deal" with a dog in the positive reinforcement venue when the behavior they exhibit is more positively reinforcing TO THEM, then a mere "click and treat" that you offer as an alternative? 

This goes back to your original problem as you proffered. This is a discussion about the head halter...and in your original post concerning simply wanting your dog to walk calmly on lead, you were "treating" liberally and seemed perplexed why this wasn't working. Your dog's misbehavior was giving her more "reinforcement" than whatever treats you were giving. Again...this becomes an issue about what dogs think, as opposed to what people think dogs are thinking. I think in essence...in your fervor to use positive reinforcement...you were actually reinforcing your dog to do exactly what you didn't want her to do.

A prime example. Counter surfing. How do you use only positive reinforcement to truly extinguish counter surfing with a chronic surfer? I don't think you can, because even just one time a dog gets something truly wonderful...what you think as truly good is not what the DOG thinks as truly good. Reinforcement....positive or negative is only as effective if it outweighs what the dog thinks....same can be said for punishment...positive or negative. How are you going to trump a stick of butter? With a measly dry dog treat? Um, I think not. How do you even punish that? A smack on the butt? Is the dog going to take the promise of future sticks of butter over a smack on the butt? Probably. 

So.....there is that whole in between "thing" between our beliefs of "training" and simply living with dogs. And that in between thing is the most important of all. The relationship. The leadership. I can't tell you how many "training devices I have scattered throughout my house....prong collars, head halters, gentle leaders, choke chains...even electronic collars. I bought the electronic collar because I thought I might need it some day....and I actually DO think the e-collar is useful to train life and death situations...such as training dogs not to harass snakes, etc. I've also used the choke chain....and I've used the prong collar...well before I understood the mind of the dog. Like I said...that was 30 years ago...My dogs don't even wear collars..when I need to take them somewhere, I throw a half-inch, soft slip over their head...the sort of thing that has a leather "runner" which designates how much "room" is available for the slip...heck, I never even pay attention to that...my dogs have probably TOO much room in that slip...but they simply don't pull me AT ALL. Not because I trained them formally...but simply because a few times I stood like a tree...and they all eat within inches of each other and know they can't fight...and because when they need to move, they move....it truly is a benevolent, yet firm attitude....and I don't know...with all that...maybe they truly KNOW I trust them, because that is the vibe I give off. I don't EXPECT them, on an innocuous lead that won't hurt them, to bolt and pull me down, so they don't. 

Greater swiss...I do understand powerful dogs....the dogs I have now are large and powerful, but I have owned St. Bernards in the past, which totally are line with your breed. I understand that power. It is not about actual weight...it is about the mind set.


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