# Shampoos, grooming, bathing and dandruff?



## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

I have a young 14 week old Doberman (bitch), black and tan in colour, is predicted to have a longer/thicker fur type. Both of her parents have flaky skin (her mother is Red & rust like our other Doberman, and her father is Black & Rust), and I _really_ hate that. Our older Doberman, 3yrs, has a very bad case of dry skin and it really gets on my nerves. "hey, aren't you a good girl!" *Pet-pet-pet* "Awe, isn't that nice? I have pieces of flaky dog skin under my nails..."

I currently bath the dogs in Aloe Vera and Tea Tree dog shampoo, but have read/heard that oatmeal soothes and moistens the skin. Would this help with flaky skin? Both dogs are groomed regularly using a bristle brush and -- maybe once every 2-3 weeks? -- a flea comb. 

I'll love her anyway, and pet her as much as she wants, but I really do NOT want to have to wash my hands *every single time* I give her back a scruffle or chin an itch. Are there any 'special' grooming brushes that help with flaky and dry skin? Tia, the older one, is bathed maybe once every 4 months? Unless she rolls in fox poop or gets extremely muddy, of course. Kayenne, the pup, is bathed more often (twice ever 2 1/2 months) due to the fact she's fascinated by the toxic waste in the garden, AKA, the pond. 

More/less bathing? Different shampoo? Different brush, maybe? The bristle brush and shampoo was recommended by the vet about two years ago. Maybe it's just a tad outdated. Any recommendations by all you dog enthusiasts?


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## BmoreBruno (Jan 19, 2011)

Sorry no recommendations from me but I am anxiously awaiting a reply with you.


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

There are a host of great shampoos for this type of skin condition, however, they normally are only temporary fixes. Over bathing can actually cause the skin to dry out as well. To really get to the root of the cause you may want to change to a different food or add some type of supplements their kibble that are rich in Omega 3 & 6 fatty acids to nourish the skin and coat. Kind of treating the skin/coat from the inside out so to speak.

Some examples

Salmon oil
Fish Oil (same ones for human consumption) Omega 3 only.
Coconut Oil (Must get Organic Extra virgin coconut oil)

Derm caps is one brand of Omega 3 & 6's that comes to mind that is designed for such conditions.


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## BmoreBruno (Jan 19, 2011)

Daft...dobes, did you ever ask your vet about it? I haven't yet but recently when to a pet store and was asking the employee about the dandruff issue and he said the same thing Tom N is saying. 



TomN said:


> There are a host of great shampoos for this type of skin condition, however, they normally are only temporary fixes. To really get to the root of the cause you may need to change to a different food or add some type of supplements their kibble that are rich in Omega 3 & 6 fatty acids to nourish the skin and coat.


He explained to me that dogs aren't people and their dandruff has a different cause than ours.  Who knew??


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

Tom, Salmon Oil, Fish Oil and Coconut Oil can all be mixed with Dry Biscuit Dog Food, yes? I'd heard Coconut Oil helps, but somebody on anther forum suggested we bathe her in it. There were two different opinions which ended up becoming a very sneaky argument, so I dropped the topic. I'll start googling again. 

Bmore, A couple of years ago at Tia's last vet visit, I mentioned it, and was told to use Aloe Vera & Tea Tree shampoo, but he never suggested changing foods or adding any supplements. :boink: 

Definitely get to researching. I was aware that 'dog dandruff' and 'human dandruff' were actually completely different things, but was too lazy to look more into it. _Until now..._ 

Thanks for the suggestions, Tom. Now I have specifics I can google. :rockon:


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

Daft & Devious Dobes said:


> Tom, Salmon Oil, Fish Oil and Coconut Oil can all be mixed with Dry Biscuit Dog Food, yes?


Yes, you can add it directly to their kibble. Salmon oil many times comes in a liquid pump, so you can easily add it. Fish oil comes in a gel tab and you can either just put it directly in with the food or puncture it and squirt it on top. Coconut oil comes in a solid form below 76 degrees (wax like) and you can either melt it down or just scrap some up and put it on top of the food. If you go with Fish Oil I would give two capsules a day, split that if you feed twice daily. 



Daft & Devious Dobes said:


> I'd heard Coconut Oil helps, but somebody on anther forum suggested we bathe her in it. There were two different opinions which ended up becoming a very sneaky argument, so I dropped the topic. I'll start googling again.


 I suppose you could bathe her in it, but again anything topically will only be a temporary fix and many times these things need to be taken care of nutritionally to treat from the inside out. If you go the coconut oil route I would get a bigger tub as you can go through it rather quickly. Here is the best deal I could find online: http://www.healthsuperstore.com/p-nutiva-organic-extra-virgin-coconut-oil.htm. 

You being in England though I imagine the shipping if they even ship internationally would be steep. Try to find it locally if you can. Many health food stores should care Extra Virgin Coconut oil although it is unlikely they will have a gallon size container. Just remember to use "Organic or Extra Virgin" coconut oil rather than refined cheaper stuff you can get in grocery stores.

A good read on Coconut oil and it's uses with pets: http://www.cocotherapy.com/wdj_coconut_oil_article.pdf

What ever you end up going with give it some time, it may take several weeks or even more for you to see the full benefits.


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

Jeez, that's a heart stopping amount of cash. :jaw:

I'll do a little more research on it within the next few weeks. Don't wanna spend a lot of money on something I could quite easily accidentally waste. Why must it be **insert brand name here** instead of **insert brand name here**? Are there health concerns with the cheaper Coconut Oil? Or is the more expensive 'brand' better? 

I mean, if we're going to do this, I want to do it properly, so we'll be going with the Organic/Extra Virgin Coconut Oil. I was just curious. 

Thanks for the links & information. :hail: :becky:


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

yeah it's a little spendy, but the benefits may be worth it and a tub that size will last quite a while. Not sure whether the brand name is important or not, just that it is extra virgin and not refined. 

The Second link i provided explains about the differences between refined (cheaper version) and unrefined (organic extra virgin). 

Here is an excerpt: 
_
There are two main types of coconut oil.

*Refined coconut oil *(often labeled RBD for Refined, Bleached, and Deodorized) is made from copra, or dried coconut meat, then treated to remove impurities. Most RBD coconut oil is inexpensive, bland, and odorless. It doesn’t contain all of the nutrients found in unrefined coconut oil, its fragrance and flavor are different, and in most cases the coconuts used to produce it are of low quality and chemicals like chorine and hexane are used in the refining process. Some brands of refined coconut oil are labeled for use as a skin and hair care product.

*Unrefined or “virgin” coconut oil*, which is made from fresh coconuts, has Culinary and health experts excited. Pressed by hand using traditional methods or manufactured in state-of-the-art factories, virgin coconut oil retains most of the nutrients found in fresh coconut._

Buy a smaller size to start and use it for a few weeks to see what it will do. Follow the feeding guideline in the second link as you want to ease them into it for a few days first.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd try switching foods.. I've found that a lot of times this is a great solution and winds up costing less int he long run because you don't have to keep buying supplements. 

I think a nutritionist I spoke to once explained it best.. If your dog is reacting to the food or isn't getting what it needs, shampoos are only a temporary relief. Why not try to get to the heart of the problem?

What're you feeding currently? Check out www.dogfoodadvisor.com and search your brand, then compare it with some of the higher and lower ranking foods. You'll see the difference in the foods. 

I've had a lot of experience with itchy, dry-skinned dogs--both my mom's dog and clients' dogs--and 95% of the time when they try a grain free food the dandruff and dry skin goes away. There are some cases where the food switch doesn't help, but because of how often it does I encourage people to at least try. This is, of course, only my experience.


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

I agree Entwine, that's why I mentioned a different food in my original post. Whether it be a different food or supplements, Omega 3&6 fatty acids are more than likely going to be the difference maker. The fact that she is in England, it may or may not be difficult to find what she wants.??. Not all grain free diets are equal. Personally, I would try something with a Salmon base as that is going to be higher in Omegas. You could even try adding some raw canned salmon to the kibble for added omegas.

Cost wise, grain free diets can be very expensive, so if she has to have it shipped in that may not be a viable option for her either.


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

Indeed.

We're not up to spending 100£ UKP to have a bag of dog food shipped in! After all, it is just flaky fur. She doesn't appear to be in any discomfort. Plus, y'know. It would add up to around 700£ per week. :hungry: HOW-ev-er...I will keep an eye out for (decent) Coconut Oil and some foods, such as Salmon (as suggested), to mix with her dog food. 

Someone just suggested a couple of drops of cooking oil mixed with their food. Just thought I'd mention it...Not sure what my question(s) on that is.

My computer refuses to load the second link, so I'll turn the laptop on and give it a go later tonight.

Thanks for all the info. :rockon:


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

Daft,

If you don't have access to quality grain free diets in your area and are on a budget, Fish Oil tabs or possibly EXtra Strength Derm Caps, may be your best bet cost wise. The Fish Oil will be the easiest to find as most Pharmacies should have some. The problem with some of these supplements is going to be availability to you locally or not and whether you have to pay the extra cost of shipping internationally or whether they even ship internationally at all. 

The important thing is to increase the Omega 3 & 6 fatty acids to the diet however you do that. Canned Salmon is another way to get it as well, just add it to their kibble. Extra Virgin Olive Oil is high in Omega 3's and should be easy to find too. Adding a tablespoon a few times a week may be something easy to try first. 

Keep us posted on any results.:wave:


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

Salmon
Fish Oil (tabs)
E.V Olive Oil

Got it. 
The cost isn't as much of a problem as the hassle is...Having to ship things however many times a week/month would be fairly time consuming, AND costly. If there are easy to find, store-bought supplements (such as those you've suggested...) then we'd rather go for those, than the ones that need shipping. 

I'm really not sure what's hard/easy to find. I've never seen Coconut Oil in ANY shop/store, but I've never really looked. The same for Fish Oil. It's probably there, but again, I've never looked. I'll be out in town during the week, so I'll hunt around for Olive Oil (Extra Virgin) and Fish Oil, and pick up a few tins/cans of Salmon. Sardines might also go on the list...

I'll keep you all updated...As requested. :biggrin1:


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

Hello all...

Tonight (6:00PM) I opened a tin of Sardines in Olive Oil. I gave Tia a sardine on a fork. I gave Kayenne a small sardine on a fork. I gave the cat half a sardine on a fork (because she asked so nicely *itches claw marks on leg*). And then I poured half the remaining Olive Oil into a small bowl with dog food. Mixed it around so that the dog food was covered in olive oil. Gave it to Tia. Repeat with Kay.

Tomorrow: Rinse and repeat. :biggrin1:


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

what are you currently feeding. Id switch foods. It may seem just dry skin, but a food that doesnt agree with a dog over time can turn to worse, hot spots, rashs, bad teeth, bad health ect,


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

"Dr. Johns _Silver Medal_"

Ingredients:
Cereals, meat and animal derivatives (minimum 4% chicken), minerals, oils and fats. With antioxidants BHA and BHT.

*ANALYSIS*
Protein: 18.0% Vitamin A 8,000 iu/kg
Oils + Fats: 6.0% Vitamin D 800 iu/kg
Fibre: 2.5% Vitamin E 80 mg/kg
Ash: 6.0% Copper (as cupric sulphate) 15 mg/kg

(As seen on bag)

We've always used it, under recommendations from our first vet. Our current vet hasn't objected to us feeding with it, nor has he recommended a better food.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Daft & Devious Dobes said:


> "Dr. Johns _Silver Medal_"
> 
> Ingredients:
> Cereals, meat and animal derivatives (minimum 4% chicken), minerals, oils and fats. With antioxidants BHA and BHT.
> ...


Yikes...Reading just those few things, I would say the food is most likely the culprit. Cereals are the first ingredient???That is bad..that means its basically a food full of corn, wheats, grains, etc that dogs don't process well...There is little meat at all, very low protein, and from the ingredient list, the majority of the protein is likely vegetable/grain protein, which dogs cannot process it out of...Change foods asap, and I am confident you will see a much healthier skin and coat!


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

We've attempted switching to TOTW before...And Orijen within the last year. But after around 3-4 weeks of Tia being on different food(s) (and my previous Doberman being on Orijen), she still had 'the squits' and seemed slightly lethargic. It was the fact her stool was still soft and often after this long on the 'new food' that worried me. We went through the whole 'weaning process', adding small amounts of the new food into her old food and increasing the amount of new food/reducing the amount of old food as the days wore on. I hadn't tried switching before this...How long SHOULD it take for a dog to be completely used to the new food? :suspicious: I don't remember having this problem when she was a puppy and being switched from breeders food to our Puppy Food. It took her about 6 days to be used to it.

I'd mentioned the cereals to my previous vet...But it was pretty much 'it shouldn't do any harm' answers, so I called Tia's breeder, who suggested I have her on Dr. Johns Platinum, which is what she fed her dogs. 

I really don't know much about food...As some may have guessed. I'm attempting to learn a little more about the goods, bads, dos and don'ts with dog food. I'm a slow learner... 

Until the food analysis starts to make sense to me, I'm just going on what others suggest (mainly my vet). Me choosing my own brand of dog food RIGHT now, this very minute, would be like a goldfish demonstrating a dogs bark...Unrealistic.

Time to hope that my spending time with intelligent dogs has given me a teaspoon of intelligence for myself. :fish: Google...here I come!


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Daft & Devious Dobes said:


> We've attempted switching to TOTW before...And Orijen within the last year. But after around 3-4 weeks of Tia being on different food(s) (and my previous Doberman being on Orijen), she still had 'the squits' and seemed slightly lethargic. It was the fact her stool was still soft and often after this long on the 'new food' that worried me. We went through the whole 'weaning process', adding small amounts of the new food into her old food and increasing the amount of new food/reducing the amount of old food as the days wore on. I hadn't tried switching before this...How long SHOULD it take for a dog to be completely used to the new food? :suspicious: I don't remember having this problem when she was a puppy and being switched from breeders food to our Puppy Food. It took her about 6 days to be used to it.
> 
> I'd mentioned the cereals to my previous vet...But it was pretty much 'it shouldn't do any harm' answers, so I called Tia's breeder, who suggested I have her on Dr. Johns Platinum, which is what she fed her dogs.
> 
> ...


Were you feeding the same amount of the new food as the old food? If so, try switching again but cutting their food back to just under the recommended amount for their weight. Both Taste of the Wild and Orijen are VERY rich foods and they don't need to eat near as much as other foods.. They also don't need to eat as much as the directions on the bag state. I've never fed my dog (nor has anyone else I know) what the bag tells them to. I have a friend who has a Husky who feeds 1 cup a day of Taste of the Wild.. The bag says to feed a dog her weight at least 2 cups a day. 

It could very easily have been a case of overfeeding a rich food.. And that may be why they had diarrhea.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Daft & Devious Dobes said:


> We've attempted switching to TOTW before...And Orijen within the last year. But after around 3-4 weeks of Tia being on different food(s) (and my previous Doberman being on Orijen), she still had 'the squits' and seemed slightly lethargic. It was the fact her stool was still soft and often after this long on the 'new food' that worried me. We went through the whole 'weaning process', adding small amounts of the new food into her old food and increasing the amount of new food/reducing the amount of old food as the days wore on. I hadn't tried switching before this...How long SHOULD it take for a dog to be completely used to the new food? :suspicious: I don't remember having this problem when she was a puppy and being switched from breeders food to our Puppy Food. It took her about 6 days to be used to it.
> 
> I'd mentioned the cereals to my previous vet...But it was pretty much 'it shouldn't do any harm' answers, so I called Tia's breeder, who suggested I have her on Dr. Johns Platinum, which is what she fed her dogs.
> 
> ...


I will second the overfeeding. Foods without the junk grains and "cereals" are much richer, and should be fed alot smaller portions because they are getting the nutrients they need in smaller amounts without the cheap fillers. So you feed less and the foods last longer. It should only take a week or two at the MOST for a dog to be adjusted to the new diet. I feed a rotation, and never have to mix foods as my dogs' are used to change and never have issues when I change foods about every 3-4 weeks. But a dog fed the same food for a long period of time is certainly likely to have upset stomach unless a gradual switch is made. Dogs need protein..from meat in order for proper muscle development as well as other things. IMO 18% protein is not near high enough, especially when most of that protein comes from grains, which dogs cannot process..so you dogs are getting way less than 18% protein. If you are not educated about how to feed your dogs, I agree, get educated. Vets are not nutrionalists, and here in the US, the vet course for nutrition is about miniscule part of their schooling, and is taught by Hills, who makes Science Diet foods, another garbage food IMO. There is a wealth of info online, try www.dogfoodanalysis.com and look thru the reviews. You can search foods in the reviews, etc. They break down ingredients meanings, what they are, why they are good or bad, etc. A great tool for learning about foods. Dogs are what they eat, and unfortunately, they have to eat the same thing day in and day out..we at least get variety between our junk food and healthy food.


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## Daft & Devious Dobes (Feb 16, 2011)

Thank you Graco...And Entwine.

I'll be checking out that website today.

...As for the over-feeding...We free-feed. They eat when they're hungry. With our previous foster Dobe, we had to start 'timed-feeding' as she'd go to the foodbowl and eat...and eat...and eat. When she left, we had a really hard time getting the dogs back onto free-feeding, as they'd go over and eat, eat, eat until the whole bowl was empty. Which was not fun...We had all the dogs on three-cups a day of our current food, as well as some 'Chudleys' & treats during training sessions (which, at the time, we did three times a day - 15 minutes a session).

I was worried they weren't getting enough food due to the fact they'd all 'freak out' over feeding times, as if they'd never been fed before. But the foster was weighed before going to her NH, and she was at the correct weight of 70-odd pounds.

As for the food switch...We put 2 1/2 cup of Dr. Johns, and then 1 1/2 cup of the new food. Then we'd gradually increase the amount of new food in the bowl, and decrease the amount of old food. 

I'll do 'food research' throughout the next couple of days, and maybe get a different brand next time we need more food.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Sardines are good, keep it up. Maybe wait a day between cans to be sure it is agreeing with the dogs' guts.

When you switch food do it slower and you will need less of the new stuff if it is higher in fat and protein.


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## Shiyanne1988 (Mar 5, 2011)

Something that we used to do with our older dog and its a cheap solution is feed them sardines. It may help with the skin issues but it does for sure make thier coats shine. I would assume that it has good fatty acids etc. in them so it may be something to try


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