# Off Leash



## Marita (Dec 6, 2012)

How do you know when your dog is ready to be off leash?

I have a 14 week old valley bull dog. I've let him off leash a few times and he never ventures too far but we are pretty close to the road and my boyfriend doesn't think I should let him off leash anymore. I mentioned just letting him off leash at the local off leash dog park and he said he doesn't think I should there either because he could run off into the woods? How do you know if it's okay or not? I don't want him to never be allowed to play off leash but I don't want to risk his safety either.


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## cooperthemut (Dec 20, 2012)

14 weeks is too young to even be thinking about that IMHO. you need a very solid recall and trust built up in your pup and at 14 weeks i can not see that being possible.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Personally, I don't leash puppies until 5-6 months. 

My BC puppy has only been on a leash in pet stores/walks in public. I keep toys and treats on my all the time, and we have a strong bond built on engagement and worked on recall in the house and at the FENCED IN dog park from day one. 

Is your dog park fenced in, or not? Does your dog know "come" at all, or have any focus on you? I wouldn't start at this point if he won't pay attention to you, but typically puppies want to stick to their people and starting them YOUNG off leash can set the foundation for off-leash work in the future. 

My pup goes into the car off leash, back into the house off leash, walks with me across the parking lot to my job, runs around in the park there off leash, goes back to the car with me, etc. When we go to new houses, if their house isn't 20 feet from the road, he's off leash there, too. We go on hikes at a local park that isn't fenced in and he's off leash. 

That said, in about 3 more weeks he will likely be on the leash primarily until he's over a year or close. 

Work on recall inside and outside on a long-line, build drive in a toy. See where you can go from there... but if he has no training, don't take him off leash in populated areas, areas with other dogs, etc. My puppy will come and work while there are other dogs playing nearby without blowing me off to go sniff them/play. When you think you've gotten that kind of focus with your dog, you can let him off leash.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

When mine were puppies, the only time they saw a leash was if we were in public or going on walks. But we're not near a road either. 
In my experience, puppies tend to stick close anyway. But if you're near a road, I personally wouldn't risk it unless you can move considerably far away from it. It's a big risk.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Contrastingly to dJEtzel, I did not even begin to let my pup OFF leash until she was about 5-6 months old. Even then, we had her drag a 30 ft leash until she was over a year in age. I feel it's important, before letting your dog off leash, to train a solid recall and to be able to trust your dog. 

Training recall takes time, MANY repetitions, strong positive reinforcement, and a variety of stimuli/distractions. I wanted Gypsy to "come" to me if kids were calling to her, dogs were charging her, cyclists were zooming by, or a rabbit was running through the yard. We live on a corner lot with no fenced in yard, and all of this stuff happens. We also frequent many places off leash these days. But we've trained for it. Took a ton of time, but Gypsy has excellent recall.

I also think it's important that you know and trust your dog to act in certain ways in a certain situations, so you can anticipate and avoid risks when off leash. Because puppies are maturing (and go through behavioral changes during this stage, think teenager), I consider it generally unwise to trust a pup off leash in an uncontained environment. Puppies are pretty unpredictable. For example, something that one day they hardly noticed may, on another, cause them to bolt. Plus, YOU'RE still getting to know your dog. What are their biggest distractors? What scares them? What motivates them? At 14 weeks, you have yet to build a repertoire of experiences with your dog that allow you to predict and manage behavior in an off leash environment.



> 14 weeks is too young to even be thinking about that IMHO. you need a very solid recall and trust built up in your pup and at 14 weeks i can not see that being possible.


I absolutely agree with this! Work on recall indoors and in fenced in areas for now. Get to know your pup. Find an irresistible reward to use whenever puppy "comes." And get the little guy to trust you by doing fun things with him and making sure, EVERY time he obeys your recall command, superamazingspectacular things happen. Eventually, you can graduate the command to more and more distracting environments. Off leash will come with time and training.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Like DJEtzel, I started my pup off leash from the first day and I think it's important to do this training young (if possible) to have a reliable off leash adult. Young puppies follow naturally and are typically very clingy, so you can use this to your advantage to teach good habits. I'm lucky enough to have 9 acres, with no roads nearby (the only places to run off to are a public rail trail, farm, or the neighbor's woods) so I felt comfortable going off leash. My dog is also naturally a velcro dog and even at 5 months will not go far from me on our property.

Without private property like this, I would recommend a fenced in area or the use of a long line to keep him safe. Careful of dog parks - a pup that young isn't old enough to be running around with bigger dogs in a chaotic environment. An empty dog park would be great though. Without a fence, a 50ft long line will give him enough freedom to run around, but will give you control to bring him back if necessary.

I absolutely wouldn't let a puppy (even my pup, who has proven himself reliable) off leash near a road. Puppies have little sense that cars can kill them. I would also try to avoid distracting areas with other dogs and people at first, so you can build up a relationship with him and work on recall. My pup is good on our property, but his recall is not good enough to bring him back from playing with another dog at this point, so I keep him on leash anywhere public while we build up to that.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> At 14 weeks, you have yet to build a repertoire of experiences with your dog that allow you to predict and manage behavior in an off leash environment.


I completely disagree with this. If you're training as you should be and bonding with the dog, most 14 week old puppies are going to be glued to your side. They're young and moldable, and it's the BEST time to work them off leash, when they're going to stick to you by nature and get rewarded for it. At fourteen weeks, I had already had my pup for 7 weeks. 7 weeks of daily dog park visits, three vet visits, daily rides in the car, pet store visits, hikes, etc. I think 7 weeks is plenty of time to know your dog and how he's going to respond.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

i dont let them off til they mature, any puppy will "stick with you" but once they hit about 4-6 mos old they get more indepentant & will start to wonder. I had to keep Josefina on leash for like ... ever. I didnt think she would ever be reliable off leash & still if she doesnt have a secure fence (she has figured out how to get out of my folks fence at the ranch, but she never goes anywhere) she wont "stay around" so she either has to be on tie out or when I am out there she can be loose. if she has any kind of fence, she can be out when someone is home, but when someone is not, she goes into her kennel run.

again every dog/breed is different, bulldogs as a rule IME arent known to be good off leash dogs. But as a general rule, I would say for the first year at least, no off leash. you can prepare for off leash by using a 20ft drag line (I used a horse lunge line ... as they are tougher & stand up better to being dragged around in the dirt, burrs etc... also they are rolled cotten usually, which doesnt burn if they get it wrapped around them. but they usually get really good at getting themselves untangled).


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## Marita (Dec 6, 2012)

So much great advice but so contradicting............I'm finding it hard to know what the right thing to do is. We started obedience classes last night so I might ask the instructor next week what she thinks about my predicament. I want him to be safe, but I also really want him to learn to come to me and have a little bit of freedom to play off leash.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Marita said:


> So much great advice but so contradicting............I'm finding it hard to know what the right thing to do is. We started obedience classes last night so I might ask the instructor next week what she thinks about my predicament. I want him to be safe, but I also really want him to learn to come to me and have a little bit of freedom to play off leash.


Then get a long line. There's really no downside to using a long line - you can try out "off leash", but keep him safe. They're really cheap on Amazon and you will most likely need one eventually.


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## Marita (Dec 6, 2012)

how long do you go with a long line? It doesn't get tangled when playing?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Add me to the list of people who start puppies off leash, while they still want to be close and have a "follow" instinct to capitalize on. I have never had so many problems traininng recall as in a dog who has never been off leash. Being able to build positive associations, and make off leash not a big, rare, self-rewarding deal works for me. But at almost 4 months and with a nearby road I wouldn't try it.


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## Marita (Dec 6, 2012)

Buster has been off leash many times and he does stay very close to me. I guess my worry is he is getting older and the distractions are getting more. The road is quiet but a road non the less. There are other dogs, people, walking nearby. He usually will run a bit away to say "hello" to a nearby person but comes right back to me. I worry the person might not want to say hello though. Most people are happy to greet him but others don't look too happy.

I am in the thought process of not wanting off leash to be a huge deal to him to make it near impossible to train him to be off leash later in life. But I want to keep him safe too.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Marita said:


> how long do you go with a long line? It doesn't get tangled when playing?


I have a 50ft, but it's personal preference. I don't like the 10-20ft lines because I don't think the dog can get far enough away to really work on recalls - if he's only 20ft away, he's probably going to come to me anyway.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

it depends on the dog/breed etc ... some dogs/breeds are naturally "clingy" & want to stick by their owners. Izze was like that. she never went too far from me & if she did & I called for her that it was time to go & we are leaving & she caught up quick to me.

But I dont do EVERY dog like that, it depends on the dog. I didnt let Buddy off leash when I forst adopted him, because I didnt know or trust him, plus where we were at the time there was a busy road right by & I didnt want to take a chance.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Marita said:


> Buster has been off leash many times and he does stay very close to me. I guess my worry is he is getting older and the distractions are getting more. The road is quiet but a road non the less. There are other dogs, people, walking nearby. He usually will run a bit away to say "hello" to a nearby person but comes right back to me. I worry the person might not want to say hello though. Most people are happy to greet him but others don't look too happy.
> 
> I am in the thought process of not wanting off leash to be a huge deal to him to make it near impossible to train him to be off leash later in life. But I want to keep him safe too.


 At his age I'd start leashing, anyway, to be honest. Kylie was off leash until she started expressing independence. At that point we leashed, used a long line and started using a formal 'come' command. Before that point it was kissy noises and high pitched voices and clapping hands so the 'come' never got poisoned. At 8 months she is earning some off leash privileges again, but drags her leash so recall can continue to be reinforced. 

She's a small dog. Her long line was narrow, light, nylon rope tied to a leash snap, so it doesn't slow her down or tangle up.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> it depends on the dog/breed etc ... some dogs/breeds are naturally "clingy" & want to stick by their owners. Izze was like that. she never went too far from me & if she did & I called for her that it was time to go & we are leaving & she caught up quick to me.
> 
> But I dont do EVERY dog like that, it depends on the dog. I didnt let Buddy off leash when I forst adopted him, because I didnt know or trust him, plus where we were at the time there was a busy road right by & I didnt want to take a chance.


 This I agree with. My mom's house is right on top of a busy-ish road. There, the dogs are leashed. And if I had a beagle or husky, I doubt I'd bother risking it. Jack and Bug took a while to get off leash time. They all started with us in motion and practicing leash drops in controlled settings while we stuffed food in their faces. If nothing else I didn't want them bolting if their leash got dropped. So now they just look for food if it happens and buys us a little time when they should be on lead and a person fumbles.


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## jax's_mommy (Oct 13, 2012)

I don't leash my puppies till they start becoming brave enough to venture to far from me on their own. Generally in the experience I've had, that's around 3-5 months. Depends on the pups confidence I suppose.
I never put a leash on Jax till he was about 3 1/2 months when he started venturing into neighbors crop field behind us. But before that, he stuck right by me, or would come right when I called him. Now is a different story lol.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I completely disagree with this. If you're training as you should be and bonding with the dog, most 14 week old puppies are going to be glued to your side.


Tell that to the shih tzu puppy who spotted my dogs and ran across a busy street to try and get to them. It sure didn't care about its owner running behind it yelling "come" and "stop" over and over.

I would make sure I had a solid training foundation before I'd ever let a dog off-leash anywhere unfenced, especially near a road. You never know what could happen. I love to practice recall in a fenced ballfield or something... somewhere where the dog can get pretty far from me, but is still safe.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Tell that to the shih tzu puppy who spotted my dogs and ran across a busy street to try and get to them. It sure didn't care about its owner running behind it yelling "come" and "stop" over and over.


If the puppy wasn't listening, the owner obviously was not training the dog as he should be. 

People who don't train their dogs or engage them end up with dogs that don't care who they are and run away, like it sounds this dog was doing. Or maybe the guy just got the dog and was an idiot?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> If the puppy wasn't listening, the owner obviously was not training the dog as he should be.
> 
> People who don't train their dogs or engage them end up with dogs that don't care who they are and run away, like it sounds this dog was doing. Or maybe the guy just got the dog and was an idiot?


Or maybe the guy got an independent puppy. I agree wiTh your reasoning and method, but come on. Dogs are individuals. I used what you're talking about with Kylie to great success, but I have a 7 week old here now who would not follow anyone anywhere: he does not care that much about people. Probably because he's likely a pyr-x, but also because dogs are not robots and what works for one rarely works for all. That doesn't mean the dog, or owner, is an idiot. WTF?

... I totally misread you. The guy might have been an idiot if he let the dog loose near a street anyway, yes. Not editing put original post just in case someone replies before I can hit post. Mobile sucks sometimes.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I would not expect "proper training" to keep a baby puppy from reacting to an enticing distraction like two dogs that it wants to play with. The average young puppy's just not old enough/couldn't possibly have had enough training and proofing in its life to be perfect in the face of such distractions.

The rolleyes smilie was a nice touch there, btw.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> If the puppy wasn't listening, the owner obviously was not training the dog as he should be.
> 
> People who don't train their dogs or engage them end up with dogs that don't care who they are and run away, like it sounds this dog was doing. Or maybe the guy just got the dog and was an idiot?


I dont think its fair to say that a puppy running across a street to check out some other dogs has a bad trainer/ owner, or that the owner was bad at engaging the puppy. If that were the case, what could be said for all the breeds considered unreliable off leash?

maybe I'm missing something. That just seemed like a strange conclusion on your part.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

CptJack said:


> ... I totally misread you. The guy might have been an idiot if he let the dog loose near a street anyway, yes. Not editing put original post just in case someone replies before I can hit post. Mobile sucks sometimes.


Apparently I misread too? 

so confused. thats what classes starting up again will do to ya.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

lol. My point was that I said *most* dogs at that age will be glued to their person, if they have one. No one said if they knew anything about this dog and why it was in the position it was in, so it's unfair to say "14 week old puppies DON'T do that because I saw one run across the street at me!" Many 14 week old puppies who have been with their owners for 6-7 weeks WILL still be glued to them, but that doesn't mean they all will. 

Cpt. I AM interested to see, 5 weeks down the line how Thud (I can't remember his real name!?) is doing with sticking by.. I know some dogs just don't do it by nature, but he's still very young and has gone through a lot, so not much time for training or exploring!

And yes, I meant the guy was an idiot for having a dog that WOULDN'T respond to him, whether it was independent or new, off leash near a street for it to run across.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> My BC puppy has only been on a leash in pet stores/walks in public.


I think it's pretty safe to say the OP was asking about "in public." I don't think they're very worried about letting their puppy off leash in their own yard, lol.

Having said that, I start all of my recall training in the yard off leash. I also start heeling in the yard off leash, but that's a bit of a tangent. How I start is simply marking and rewarding every time the puppy looks in my direction. It doesn't take long for a puppy to realize that checking in with you regularly is a pretty good idea. Then I start recalling from just 3-6 feet away. That might seem dumb, but the point is to set them up to succeed and "most" puppies if you have their attention from that close will come to you. If they don't, try using a regular 6' leash, start jogging backwards while calling them in a fun, chipper voice. Then just gradually increase the distance. And never call him if you don't think he'll come. If you think he's too distracted by something, go closer before calling or just go get him. And don't stand there saying COME HERE COME HERE over and over or it turns into blah blah blah.


As for how old... it depends on the dog IMO. Maisy will never be off leash except in the remotest areas (I've hiked with her off leash near the BWCA, for example). Pip could probably be off leash almost anywhere. Squash is in between and there are some places he can be off leash and some he can't. If in doubt, I just keep them on a leash. It's not worth the potential heartbreak to me should something happen.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Having said that, I start all of my recall training in the yard off leash. I also start heeling in the yard off leash, but that's a bit of a tangent. How I start is simply marking and rewarding every time the puppy looks in my direction. It doesn't take long for a puppy to realize that checking in with you regularly is a pretty good idea.


Out of curiosity, do you use food rewards in that early stage? Maybe its just because they're labs, but verbal marking and a food reward would have both emma and bubba standing and staring at me for the next five minutes, trying to figure out how to get another treat. They would never "run off" again, if that makes sense.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

sassafras said:


> I think it's pretty safe to say the OP was asking about "in public." I don't think they're very worried about letting their puppy off leash in their own yard, lol.


I guess our thoughts on that vary? I was talking about walks downtown in Kalamazoo being "in public walks"... like I said, we visit many public parks and hiking trails, parking lots to my work and our unfenced yard and walk off leash no problem.. just not a foot away from the street. So I was also talking about "public". Never said the OP wasn't?

eta; also, I re-read the original post and the OP IS talking about letting him off leash in her unfenced yard from the sounds of it, so she must be a little worried!


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> I completely disagree with this. If you're training as you should be and bonding with the dog, most 14 week old puppies are going to be glued to your side.


I guess my perspective stems from the fact that my yard is, due to the proximity of the street and the number and variety of distractions, a horrible place for 14-week-old puppy. Gypsy was also not the least interested in sticking by my side (puppies do that?! *mindblown*). Her enthusiasm for, erm, just about everything, far exceeded my natural allure and the two weeks of training she'd had with me by that point in her life. She LOVES people, then and now. The difference is, at 14 weeks, she'd see someone on the sidewalk - or, hell, totally across the street in the neighbor's side garden - and go berserk with joy. If I had the leash, she'd be pulling and wiggling and whining. If off leash and out of my reach, no doubt she'd would have charged right over to XYZ, despite my efforts to deter her. These days, she sees someone and goes crazywiggly but looks to me for direction. She can be right next to the sidewalk and I can call her away from a distance. No way could that have happened when she was a pup. I like to think that I hadn't failed to train or bond with her at 14 weeks. The kind of trustworthly off leash behavior I wanted took time. And because we live next to a busy rode, there could be no mistakes. I didn't want unnecessary risk.

I believe you should work on off leash fundamentals from day #1, but I don't feel most puppies should be off leash in risky environments from the get-go. Sure, 50 ft leash here, off leash in a big field, or a fence-in dog park, but weigh the risks. I wouldn't advise a novice dog owner to let their puppy scamper off leash around in an unfenced yard or in high distraction public places. At least, that would have been EXTREMELY unwise with my pup and most pups I've known.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> lCpt. I AM interested to see, 5 weeks down the line how Thud (I can't remember his real name!?) is doing with sticking by.. I know some dogs just don't do it by nature, but he's still very young and has gone through a lot, so not much time for training or exploring!


I'll be interested to see, too. He's not only very young with a rough start, he's been SICK for most of the time we've had him. It's entirely possible that he'll form some more positive associations as time goes. He is definitely improving and starting to act more like a puppy, though we're still reenforcing him heavily for choosing to be near people. His preference is just to go outside and sit, or crawl under the furniture and sleep. But again: He's been ill.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I'll be interested to see, too. He's not only very young with a rough start, he's been SICK for most of the time we've had him. It's entirely possible that he'll form some more positive associations as time goes. He is definitely improving and starting to act more like a puppy, though we're still reenforcing him heavily for choosing to be near people. His preference is just to go outside and sit, or crawl under the furniture and sleep. But again: He's been ill.


AND he was living in a dump. He probably spent most of his days outside crawling under boxes and rubble.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I guess my perspective stems from the fact that my yard is, due to the proximity of the street and the number and variety of distractions, a horrible place for 14-week-old puppy. Gypsy was also not the least interested in sticking by my side (puppies do that?! *mindblown*). Her enthusiasm for, erm, just about everything, far exceeded my natural allure and the two weeks of training she'd had with me by that point in her life. She LOVES people, then and now. The difference is, at 14 weeks, she'd see someone on the sidewalk - or, hell, totally across the street in the neighbor's side garden - and go berserk with joy. If I had the leash, she'd be pulling and wiggling and whining. If off leash and out of my reach, no doubt she'd would have charged right over to XYZ, despite my efforts to deter her. These days, she sees someone and goes crazywiggly but looks to me for direction. She can be right next to the sidewalk and I can call her away from a distance. No way could that have happened when she was a pup. I like to think that I hadn't failed to train or bond with her at 14 weeks. The kind of trustworthly off leash behavior I wanted took time. And because we live next to a busy rode, there could be no mistakes. I didn't want unnecessary risk.
> 
> I believe you should work on off leash fundamentals from day #1, but I don't feel most puppies should be off leash in risky environments from the get-go. Sure, 50 ft leash here, off leash in a big field, or a fence-in dog park, but weigh the risks. I wouldn't advise a novice dog owner to let their puppy scamper off leash around in an unfenced yard or in high distraction public places. At least, that would have been EXTREMELY unwise with my pup and most pups I've known.



I DO agree that you should weigh the risks and I would never let ANY puppy off in a high risk environment like an unfenced yard with a road nearby. When I say I start my dogs off as puppies off leash, I mean places like.... 










This is where Kylie (and the rest) started. There's a hiking trail on one side, trees in the distance, but it's mostly wide open space, with very few people passing and still 20+ feet from the trail. That's as low risk as it gets, for me, outside a fence present. And, thinking back, she still started dragging a line of some sort, or doing this: 








(He's dragging a leash. Her leash is attached to his. I would not do this unsupervised or with any dog that was less bolt-proof than Jack. /disclaimer. It was, however, great for teaching her to stick close, because he wouldn't move outside that 6' radius (and that's a walking trail/access road, btw)

I freely admit I take risks with my dogs by allowing them off lead, but I DO minimize the heck out of them, and the focus of their training STILL starts in the house and fenced in yard, with reenforcing for staying close. But even Jack, the most reliable off-leash dog ever, is never getting off lead near a road.



DJEtzel said:


> AND he was living in a dump. He probably spent most of his days outside crawling under boxes and rubble.


Yep. Absolutely zero socialization at that point, and probably not much before that. He's not feral or scared of people, but he's just now starting to do things like greet people when they come home, and even that's lukewarm.

Oh, I missed it earlier: Wicket is technically his name - or was. At this point we're all calling him Thud and he's showing some indication of responding it, so apparently he's just going to have a ridiculous name. >.<


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I have to say I agree with some of what almost each of you has said. 
I think it's important to start working on recall and off leash skills from the beginning. This lays a strong foundation for further work to come. 
And, I agree, working on it in the beginning is great, as many (but not all) young puppies like to stick with their human. So, it's a good time to do recall and off leash stuff, because they are less likely to be lured away by distractions.

However, they do reach an age where they get brave and venture out, and, if they are still young enough not to have had as many repetitions on recall training as they may need, they may put themselves in danger. It's like, they're old enough to be curious, but not old enough to have gotten their recall totally down in places where they may encounter distractions.

AND, as is evident in many threads, puppies DO hit adolescence, and, all the training sometimes goes out the window.

So, I guess, what I'm saying is, yes, train the recall, start some off leash stuff when they're young. But, when they get curious, it's better safe than sorry, you have to weigh the risks. It might be wise, when they start getting curious and brave enough to venture out, to use a long lead, just to have the ultimate control. And, of course, continue to work on the recall forever.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Rescued said:


> Out of curiosity, do you use food rewards in that early stage? Maybe its just because they're labs, but verbal marking and a food reward would have both emma and bubba standing and staring at me for the next five minutes, trying to figure out how to get another treat. They would never "run off" again, if that makes sense.


Yup. I would turn my back and walk away if I needed to, or let one of the other dogs out as a distraction. My neighborhood is pretty busy and Squash would get distracted by other stuff enough so I it wasn't a huge issue for me personally with him, but I could totally see some puppies acting that way. 



DJEtzel said:


> I guess our thoughts on that vary? I was talking about walks downtown in Kalamazoo being "in public walks"... like I said, we visit many public parks and hiking trails, parking lots to my work and our unfenced yard and walk off leash no problem.. just not a foot away from the street. So I was also talking about "public". Never said the OP wasn't?


Oh, no way would I let a young puppy off leash in public or unfenced areas.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Marita said:


> How do you know when your dog is ready to be off leash?
> 
> I have a 14 week old valley bull dog. I've let him off leash a few times and he never ventures too far but we are pretty close to the road and my boyfriend doesn't think I should let him off leash anymore. I mentioned just letting him off leash at the local off leash dog park and he said he doesn't think I should there either because he could run off into the woods? How do you know if it's okay or not? I don't want him to never be allowed to play off leash but I don't want to risk his safety either.


I'm thinking your dog shouldn't be off leash for a long time. Training - live it, love it, learn it.


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## Marita (Dec 6, 2012)

I live in an apartment building so we do not have a yard. There is a side yard to the building that many other puppies in the building play. Most of them get along quite well and most of the owners let their puppies off leash. They all fumble around and play and it's a big enough area they seem happy staying there. There is a set of stairs that leads to the sidewalk and then the road (quiet very little traffic, but still a road). He has been off leash there many times and has never ventured away but as I said he is getting a little older and I'm thinking he might one of these days get interested in something. I want to set a good foundation for off leash and recall but I don't know where to practice this. We have a huge dog park down the street but nothing is fenced in. Still no traffic and lots of trees but dangers there would be other dogs or him running off (unlikely at this stage but still possible). I'm thinking I'll start keeping him leashed, or a long lead line for now. Maybe I can do some investigating and see if I can find a fenced in area to practice off leash  Thanks everyone for your input, I truly do appreciate it!!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> If the puppy wasn't listening, the owner obviously was not training the dog as he should be.
> 
> People who don't train their dogs or engage them end up with dogs that don't care who they are and run away, like it sounds this dog was doing. Or maybe the guy just got the dog and was an idiot?


I for one think its more important to not give the puppy/dog a chance to learn that they can NOT heed a command ... ESP one as important as come. If that means I have to use a long line then so be it. Buddy the adult rescue was on a long line for like ... Ever & still is when I take him to an unfamiliar place due to some lingering fear issues to loud noises & loud surroundings, I don't want to risk him getting frightened & running off.

With puppies I think it's also important to get them "used" to being on tie down (for when I can't watch them, like when I M at the barn & I don't want them underfoot of the horses). 

Heck, you might think I am crazy ... But once Josefina got older & we had to work outside I actually attached a short leash (like a standard length) to a harness Izze wore for when I was working outside & couldn't leave her somewhere lol because I knew Izze wouldn't wonder & she would help me "teach" her how to stay around lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> Heck, you might think I am crazy ... But once Josefina got older & we had to work outside I actually attached a short leash (like a standard length) to a harness Izze wore for when I was working outside & couldn't leave her somewhere lol because I knew Izze wouldn't wonder & she would help me "teach" her how to stay around lol.


If you're crazy, so am I.









Follow the puppy's leash. 

I firmly believe there is no better puppy-raising aid than an already rock-solid, reliable, steady and well trained adult DOG.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> If you're crazy, so am I.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tell some people that, lol of course I would only do that with one or both dogs wearing a harness (Izze wore the harness, I had Josefina on a collar because she could slip a harness :/) of course it's not like they were running beside a bike or whatever like that, we did have a side by side Polaris we took out to the pastures, Josefina rode in the seat with us & we only hooked them together AFTER we got to where we were going, it beats being tied to the Polaris the whole time ... At least she could walk around wih Izze & learn from her, since she was an orphan with no mom.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> Tell some people that, lol of course I would only do that with one or both dogs wearing a harness (Izze wore the harness, I had Josefina on a collar because she could slip a harness :/) of course it's not like they were running beside a bike or whatever like that, we did have a side by side Polaris we took out to the pastures, Josefina rode in the seat with us & we only hooked them together AFTER we got to where we were going, it beats being tied to the Polaris the whole time ... At least she could walk around wih Izze & learn from her, since she was an orphan with no mom.


Yeah. Mine were 2 feet from me the entire time they did that, if that. I wouldn't do it without direct, immediate supervision and certainly not on a collar and 6' leashes or if we were doing anything more strenuous than meandering along known territory. But as it stood, it worked out pretty well. Interestingly, Kylie was 4 weeks old when we found her. She learned a LOT from Jack. Way more about being a good DOG than she did from us, for sure.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Random opinions:
1. I have no experience with a Valley Bull dog. Seems to be a local 'breed.' Bull dogs don't tend to have a lot of prey drive, and boxers also tend to stay by the owners. 1 point for off leash 
2. Bully breeds in general seem to be easy to train to stay close by. 1 point for off leash.
3. Terriers have a high prey drive, requiring lots of training for distractions, squirrels, rabbits, chickens, etc. ... Not an issue?
4. Ditto for sighthounds.
5. 50 -50 for Retrievers - love to chase things, love to stay with owners... that pay attention.

For a dog in general, I would be careful about going off leash. The people here that recommend it are VERY experienced, and I trust their off leash experience over my own. 

One additional point: Your dog is going through developmental stages. His level of independence is less now than in a month or two. At 6 months, he may be interested in females; at 10 months he may be interested in much more independence... or Not. Just keep up the training for a year or two, to be safe.

Test for you:
1. If someone looks at your dog and smiles from across the street, would your dog run across the street to him. In front of cars?
2. If your dog sees a squirrel, does he forget that you exist? If he chases a squirrel, can you call him back? Do you have Squirrels?
3. Ditto with Rabbits, Horses, joggers, bicycles, cars, chickens, birds, cats, other dogs, mice, foxes, deer, moose?

I'm being a little extreme, but run some tests with these distractions. There are two levels: 1) The dog sees the distraction, you tell him No!, and he stays with you. 2) The dog chases the distraction, you call him, and he stops & returns. If you have this type of control of better, then I say No problem! Go off-leash, for now.

I walk my dog off leash on a fenced playground everyday. I don't have this level of control. Once he runs, I can't call him back. He just has to go say "Hello." Once a squirrel cusses out his family tree, I have to snap on the leash to drag him away. He won't chase horses, he's absolutely unpredictable with cats (except he won't harm them), and he will chase armadillos (probably not an issue for you  ).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> I'm being a little extreme, but run some tests with these distractions.


I don't think you're actually being all that extreme in your suggestions of distractions, and I'm someone who does do off leash things. 

Bottom line: Distractions are everywhere. We've run into FLOCKS OF CHICKENS in the middle of nowhere. Bicycles. Other dogs. People. Squirrels. Rabbits. People riding horses. We saw a freaking bear once. The only thing we don't have to contend with, at least possibly, are cars. In theory, we might even run into a utility vehicle. If I wasn't confident in their ability to be called back, or ignore, I would not have my dogs off leash outside of a fence, or dragging a LONG line, instead of just dragging leashes. Even now, Jack is the only one who does the WALK portion of anything off lead (as opposed to running in open areas). Jack is 6. I know that dog. His startle response is to move behind us. I've seen him start after chickens (I still don't get those) and turn himself midair to come back to us. He also has a stay that will hold against ANYTHING, and will freeze at a distance. Some of that's training and positive reinforcement. A lot of it is just Jack. His desire to be more than a few feet away from us is next to nil. He's a kind of a generally insecure and extremely people oriented dog. His response to that insecurity is to be velcro. He gets a LOT of off leash freedom. The other two get less, because they're Just Not That Trustworthy.

And because it ties back into older dogs teaching younger, and enthusiasm of recall (this is important I think. Recalling with 'drive', or energy' rather than wandering back helps a LOT, I believe). Make coming back EXCITING!










She's. Not attached to him, there. But he IS doing her recall exercises with her which helped her a TON.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. Mine were 2 feet from me the entire time they did that, if that. I wouldn't do it without direct, immediate supervision and certainly not on a collar and 6' leashes or if we were doing anything more strenuous than meandering along known territory. But as it stood, it worked out pretty well. Interestingly, Kylie was 4 weeks old when we found her. She learned a LOT from Jack. Way more about being a good DOG than she did from us, for sure.


Agreed. We only did it within the property, on a 6ft or better COTTON leash if an ANY TIME there was a time they would be running (like of we had to move to a different location in the Polaris or had to operate large farm equipment or were in the cow pasture (because if the risk of cattle harassing us) they were NOT tied together.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I think most of the members here who kept their pups offleash had the benefit of wilderness. Personally I think its really, really dangerous to let your untrained dog offleash near a road. DON'T DO IT.

I live in the city, we don't have acres, we are talking a matter of 30' to several very busy roads. He may stick close, but what about that one moment he doesnt? When he sees a dog across the street? Much too dangerous for my taste.

I do think you should start recall training offleash as soon as the pup gets home but its a big jump from beginner recall work to completely offleash on a sidewalk or front yard full of distractions. Start indoors where distractions are very, very minimal. Begin work on both 'come' and 'heel'. When he is 100% in the house, take him out to a fenced backyard, don tbe surprised if he regresses a little here since its more distracting and there is more competing for his attention. Then maybe take him to a fenced park or an unfenced park with a very long line (60' or so). build very slowly, it will take weeks but eventually you can test him with people, dogs, squirrels, toys, food, bikes anything you think he might ignore you for. When he is solid with those things you can take the long lead off and continue with periodic testing of his recall (its a lifelong process).

I have a great guide for teaching bomb-proof recall by Susan Garrett if you're interested, PM me. Good luck!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> I for one think its more important to not give the puppy/dog a chance to learn that they can NOT heed a command ... ESP one as important as come. If that means I have to use a long line then so be it. Buddy the adult rescue was on a long line for like ... Ever & still is when I take him to an unfamiliar place due to some lingering fear issues to loud noises & loud surroundings, I don't want to risk him getting frightened & running off.
> 
> With puppies I think it's also important to get them "used" to being on tie down (for when I can't watch them, like when I M at the barn & I don't want them underfoot of the horses).
> 
> Heck, you might think I am crazy ... But once Josefina got older & we had to work outside I actually attached a short leash (like a standard length) to a harness Izze wore for when I was working outside & couldn't leave her somewhere lol because I knew Izze wouldn't wonder & she would help me "teach" her how to stay around lol.


I'm not sure why you quoted me in your response? I don't think I ever disagreed with anything you were saying...



hanksimon said:


> Do you have Squirrels?


LOL, good question, but funny!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> I think most of the members here who kept their pups offleash had the benefit of wilderness. Personally I think its really, really dangerous to let your untrained dog offleash near a road. DON'T DO IT.


Yep. I don't live IN the wilderness - but it is more rural than urban. And we sure as heck go TO the wilderness to do a THING off leash or out of a fence. No way, no how, would my dogs ever be off leash in a more urban setting. **EVER**.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I guess I'm pretty risky with my dogs, but I trust them and weigh the risks based on their performance. My house is about 10-20 ft from the road, no sidewalk, on a dead end street. One lot next door is one of the top 10 busiest street in Kalamazoo. The park where we run/walk off leash is also on that busy street. But, I let my dogs loose there and in our front yard on a regular bases. And I used to walk Frag off leash on our college campus pretty frequently, and we'd walk off leash the mile down to campus from where we lived. Just kind of depends on the day and the circumstances and knowing your dog, I suppose. People would probably call me stupid for what I do, but if they've never bolted, why would I worry?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, they never bolt... until they do. There's nothing important enough about having a dog off leash in the city that would make me risk it 10-20 feet from the road or one of the top 10 busiest streets in my city.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm not sure why you quoted me in your response? I don't think I ever disagreed with anything you were saying...!


Yeah ... Sorry, accidentally push "reply with quote" instead of plain ole reply like I wanted.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Patricia McConnell (who is great) did a blog post about this today! She listed all of her criteria for when she feels a dog is ready to be off-leash. Here's a bit that I especially agreed with:



> There are simply many places I would never let Tootsie off leash. Here’s an example: we went recently to visit a friend who lives in a suburb, with a small lawn between the house and the road. I asked her to potty before we went inside, and never would have considered letting her off leash in that context. Why? Because first, we were just too close to a road for comfort, she could have gotten into the road before I could blurt out a cue. Second, what would be the point? The cost/benefit balance was skewed far to the negative: the risk in no way was worth the pay off.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Patricia McConnell (who is great) did a blog post about this today! She listed all of her criteria for when she feels a dog is ready to be off-leash. Here's a bit that I especially agreed with:


I loved that article; thank you for posting it. 

My favorite bit was immediately after, though in the same section:



> At the cabin however, the closest road was a good 600 yards away, and the payoff was huge. She got to be a dog off the farm for the first time in her little life, and although I’m sure some people would argue one should never take any risk at all, I’m not one of them.


Though I agree with the entire thing.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Same here ... We are really REEEEAAALLLLLLY rural with the nearest highway about 3 miles from our house so having our dogs loose in our property is ok.

Of course when I lived in the city mine were always on leashes ... No matter how reliable they were. Even Izze was leashes in the city & she was like the most reliable dog ever.


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## Marita (Dec 6, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> Random opinions:
> 1. I have no experience with a Valley Bull dog. Seems to be a local 'breed.' Bull dogs don't tend to have a lot of prey drive, and boxers also tend to stay by the owners. 1 point for off leash
> 2. Bully breeds in general seem to be easy to train to stay close by. 1 point for off leash.
> 3. Terriers have a high prey drive, requiring lots of training for distractions, squirrels, rabbits, chickens, etc. ... Not an issue?
> ...


Haha I literally laughed out loud at the squirrel part! Yes we have squirrels in our city, though I don't see them too often unless we are at the park. I do agree, both bull dogs and boxers tend to stick to their owners so those are points for off leash.

I like the test ideas, I've never tried it. At first he was literally velcro so I never worried about it. But now that he's getting a bit older and seeing the world I don't know if he'd run off if he saw a squirrel, another dog, a person across the street smiling at him, etc. 

Ultimately I am going to keep him leashed (unless I can find a good fenced in area) until I know I have complete control. We have been trianing and even started obedience classes but I don't know if he'd come back if I called him if something else really caught his attention.

Thank you everyone so much for all the input, I truly appreciate all the advice and support on this forum!


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## Kobismom (Dec 17, 2012)

We'll never be able to let Kobi off leash unless in a gated dog park or dog beach, and we're okay with that. As a herding breed, his "ADHD" kicks in at any time and while we continue to train him, he loves to chase anything that moves.... leaves across the ground, people, dogs and CARS!!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kobismom said:


> We'll never be able to let Kobi off leash unless in a gated dog park or dog beach, and we're okay with that. As a herding breed, his "ADHD" kicks in at any time and while we continue to train him, he loves to chase anything that moves.... leaves across the ground, people, dogs and CARS!!


He's only 4 months old... I think it's far too soon to be able to say that you will never be able to let him off leash. The herding group are some of the most qualified candidates to be let off leash; very biddable, easy to train, and most are velcro/one person type dogs.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> I completely disagree with this. If you're training as you should be and bonding with the dog, most 14 week old puppies are going to be glued to your side. They're young and moldable, and it's the BEST time to work them off leash, when they're going to stick to you by nature and get rewarded for it. At fourteen weeks, I had already had my pup for 7 weeks. 7 weeks of daily dog park visits, three vet visits, daily rides in the car, pet store visits, hikes, etc. I think 7 weeks is plenty of time to know your dog and how he's going to respond.


exactly , the only exception can be the bold confident pup in the litter, not harder to train but confident enough to romp off more then 50 feet from you and want to explore without a safety net, yet just as much fun to work with lol. My own experience is having my mentors pups exposed and conditioned in movement and body positions loosely to all skills you would need to get your AKC CD title by 10 weeks old going to their new families.. and that is by teaching attention/follow me skills in small sessions daily. Teaching leash exposure after they have off lead follow me skills and activities in place, Pups are not the center of attention they are a part of the schedule is a good mindset in getting them started living in your house hold. For every job you have during the day the pup has a job to learn that assist you being able to get your job done. Day 1 through 30 is an important time frame in a new home, what do you want a dog pup to learn about your home, and you to build a foundation to work with


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## spikey44 (Jan 14, 2013)

I am very new to this site, but my husband and I have been with dogs our whole life, We have had our new Minature pinscher puppy for three months, and since we are very outdoorsy pple, we bring our puppy with us on hikes. At first i was worried about letting him off the leash, but my husband encouraged that I should let him go and he sticks by us, and he's at six months of age now and he'll nvr run off even to chase a rabbit or something! but he loves the freedom to sniff and look with out being dragged by a leash! 
we live by a busy road too, and with two neighbors tht let their dogs run loose (a retreiver and a beagle tht wanders) It took us a little longer to let go of the leash, but we trained (alot) tht no going on the road with out "LEASH". and it actually worked!! just the other day spud the beagle came wandering through our yard to the road.. I held my breath.. i was ready to run after my pup, but, he just followed the beagle to the front yard and sat and watched... wow did spike get lots a loves after tht!! Its good tht puppies get tons a love and spike nows tht This is HIS HOUSE!! and he doesnt even "WANT" to go out without his humans... so just be posative with your puppy, encourage and "PRAISE" good behavior.


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## Kobismom (Dec 17, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> He's only 4 months old... I think it's far too soon to be able to say that you will never be able to let him off leash. The herding group are some of the most qualified candidates to be let off leash; very biddable, easy to train, and most are velcro/one person type dogs.


Point taken... he may well grown out of it (I sure hope so!!), but from what I've seen/heard, Kobi is much more "ADHD" than other pups his age... so I truly hope he grows out of it!!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kobismom said:


> Point taken... he may well grown out of it (I sure hope so!!), but from what I've seen/heard, Kobi is much more "ADHD" than other pups his age... so I truly hope he grows out of it!!


There is no such thing as a dog with ADHD. They just have to be trained by something motivating. It's not something he'll grow out of... It's 100% training.


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## Kobismom (Dec 17, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> There is no such thing as a dog with ADHD. They just have to be trained by something motivating. It's not something he'll grow out of... It's 100% training.


LOL! I'm not being literal... as someone who works in the mental health field, I know dogs don't really have ADHD.. 

I'm just referring to how hyper he is and how distractable he is.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> It's not something he'll grow out of... It's 100% training.


I disagree! Puppies go through all sorts of stages where they regress, unlearn, can't learn, learn quickly, etc.

My pup was the very perfect puppy at the end of his first 4 weeks of puppy class. For the second 4 weeks, he was a hellion and absolutely refused do anything other than lunge at the other puppies during class. Now, in his next class, he's gone back to being pretty good again (even compared to the adult dogs who have taken this class before), and has started learning things at an extremely high rate. He went from taking 3-4 weeks to learn anything, to learning in just a couple sessions. I think all puppies develop at different rates and to some extent do grow out of the spazzy puppy brain stuff, though consistent training throughout obviously helps.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> I disagree! Puppies go through all sorts of stages where they regress, unlearn, can't learn, learn quickly, etc.
> 
> My pup was the very perfect puppy at the end of his first 4 weeks of puppy class. For the second 4 weeks, he was a hellion and absolutely refused do anything other than lunge at the other puppies during class. Now, in his next class, he's gone back to being pretty good again (even compared to the adult dogs who have taken this class before), and has started learning things at an extremely high rate. He went from taking 3-4 weeks to learn anything, to learning in just a couple sessions. I think all puppies develop at different rates and to some extent do grow out of the spazzy puppy brain stuff, though consistent training throughout obviously helps.


Precisely what I meant. If you aren't training through that, their own desires and personalities will take over and they will never be safe off leash or listen. They're testing all of their limits by being "ADHD" and only training will fix it, not letting them grow up.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Precisely what I meant. If you aren't training through that, their own desires and personalities will take over and they will never be safe off leash or listen. They're testing all of their limits by being "ADHD" and only training will fix it, not letting them grow up.


I guess what I'm trying to say is that if a 5 month old puppy is too nutty to be off leash, it's not necessarily a training problem - it could just be that that particular puppy is not mentally at a point to focus on his owner and not on the surroundings. It's something you have to train through, but all puppies develop at different rates and will be ready for things at different times. I think keeping him on leash until he's older and more settled will help and he will outgrow some of the puppy spazzy behavior.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Agreed, I have had some dogs who were great from day one leash or not, never "spazzed out" & Lways had a good head on their shoulders. Then I had others that sometimes I just felt like throwing in the towel (though of course I never did) I still have one (Josefina) who will do great for a long time after I ride her butt & manage the hell out of her & watch her like a hawk (she likes to get out of the yard at the ranch, & don't bother with suggestions, we've tried everything short of an electric fence & that is coming next) of course she is never out run if around when no one is there, but if she doesn't think someone is watching she will put her fee on the top of the fence & haul herself over >_<.

I have done every type of boundry training with her, even tied her to Izze in an effort to show her where she was supposed to go to no avail, so yes some dogs are just "like that ".


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> Agreed, I have had some dogs who were great from day one leash or not, never "spazzed out" & Lways had a good head on their shoulders. Then I had others that sometimes I just felt like throwing in the towel (though of course I never did) I still have one (Josefina) who will do great for a long time after I ride her butt & manage the hell out of her & watch her like a hawk (she likes to get out of the yard at the ranch, & don't bother with suggestions, we've tried everything short of an electric fence & that is coming next) of course she is never out run if around when no one is there, but if she doesn't think someone is watching she will put her fee on the top of the fence & haul herself over >_<.
> 
> I have done every type of boundry training with her, even tied her to Izze in an effort to show her where she was supposed to go to no avail, so yes some dogs are just "like that ".


Well sure, if you're not supervising a dog they are going to get into all sorts of things! It's ridiculous to think or expect dogs to be any different.


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

I haven't read all the responses in this thread, but just responding to the initial post, I have a particular pet peeve against off-leash walking a dog in a neighborhood setting (I'm not sure I have an opinion if you're out in ranchland or not near other homes). Near a road I would say, no... not unless the dog is VERY well trained with excellent recall.

As for my pet peeve, there are people on my block who off-leash walk their dogs, or let their dog out off-leash into their front yard to do their business. I come walking by with my leashed dogs and inevitably the unleashed dog makes a beeline for me and mine. It often turns out poorly because leashed dogs and unleashed dogs should not meet in that manner. A couple days ago I was walking my two dogs when I saw a woman walking on the other side of the street coming towards me. I didn't see, at that moment, the large dog that was walking beside her, unleashed. The large dog ran across the street to my two small dogs, scaring them half to death and causing my puppy (only around 10lbs and 11 months old) to bark at the front door for 15 minutes straight after we got back inside my house. We were lucky that the larger dog was not aggressive, although unlucky that the dog's assertive play style did not comport with playing with dogs half his size.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Where did I say she was upsupervised? I said she is never out if someone isn't home, our house has huge picture windows that lend a panoramic view of the entire yard.

I'm sorry but I have never been one to subscribe to the belief that if you aren't outside with your dog every minute they are out in the yard then you aren't supervising.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

lisahi said:


> ...to bark at the front door for 15 minutes straight after we got back inside my house.


Awwww. Poor little one. Glad no one got hurt. I never knew another dog but my own to react that way to a scare like this. I have a funny video of my Molly telling off the neighborhood after a similar scare of a large off leash dog running up to us.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> I'm sorry but I have never been one to subscribe to the belief that if you aren't outside with your dog every minute they are out in the yard then you aren't supervising.


Being with the dog is sort of the definition of supervising.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Well sure, if you're not supervising a dog they are going to get into all sorts of things! It's ridiculous to think or expect dogs to be any different.


I'm curious about this. Here's what I mean: there are lots of folks here who do boundary training, and work with their dogs to give them clear expectations. For instance, there are folks who swear that they can train their dogs that they are not allowed on the furniture, and that their dogs abide by that rule, even when the people aren't home. There are also people here who say they have trained their dog using boundaries, that they are not allowed to go into the kitchen, or upstairs, or what have you, even when they (the human) isn't home.

So, are those people "ridiculous"? Those people that train their dogs not to get on the furniture or go somewhere like upstairs, when they are not home?

I'm just curious, and I know it's not related necessarily to off leash. I just wonder, because lots of folks seem to have success doing that, but, you're saying it's ridiculous to expect a dog to not get into all sorts of things when the human isn't supervising.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

doxiemommy said:


> I'm curious about this. Here's what I mean: there are lots of folks here who do boundary training, and work with their dogs to give them clear expectations. For instance, there are folks who swear that they can train their dogs that they are not allowed on the furniture, and that their dogs abide by that rule, even when the people aren't home. There are also people here who say they have trained their dog using boundaries, that they are not allowed to go into the kitchen, or upstairs, or what have you, even when they (the human) isn't home.


I wonder how they're sure... do they set up hidden cameras? I've heard a lot of stories about dogs who "know" they aren't allowed on the couch, but sleep on it anyway when their people are gone.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> Where did I say she was upsupervised? I said she is never out if someone isn't home, our house has huge picture windows that lend a panoramic view of the entire yard.
> 
> I'm sorry but I have never been one to subscribe to the belief that if you aren't outside with your dog every minute they are out in the yard then you aren't supervising.


You said if no one is watching her she flies over a fence... that means she isn't supervised. Being able to see her out your window does nothing if you aren't around to physically or verbally stop an action from happening. Like Sass said... it's kind of the definition of supervision. Being there or not.



doxiemommy said:


> I'm curious about this. Here's what I mean: there are lots of folks here who do boundary training, and work with their dogs to give them clear expectations. For instance, there are folks who swear that they can train their dogs that they are not allowed on the furniture, and that their dogs abide by that rule, even when the people aren't home. There are also people here who say they have trained their dog using boundaries, that they are not allowed to go into the kitchen, or upstairs, or what have you, even when they (the human) isn't home.
> 
> So, are those people "ridiculous"? Those people that train their dogs not to get on the furniture or go somewhere like upstairs, when they are not home?
> 
> I'm just curious, and I know it's not related necessarily to off leash. I just wonder, because lots of folks seem to have success doing that, but, you're saying it's ridiculous to expect a dog to not get into all sorts of things when the human isn't supervising.


I think it is ridiculous to EXPECT them to behave something that you've trained while you're gone. It is not ridiculous for it to happen nor do I argue that it does (though I am also curious how they know so well!) but it isn't something that should be expected of an animal when you really can't teach it unless you have a video camera and manners minder. 

And of course, the original point was that ADHD in puppies is not something that they grow out of, it's something that is trained through and changed. If I did not train my puppy as much as I do there is no doubt that he would be a crazy neurotic pup chasing everything that moved. And I don't expect him to act like a robot, most of our training is just engagement and recall and cute tricks... but the attention and focus has been shaped because of training so that he is not that "ADHD" crackhead puppy that will never be able to learn his manners. 

A dog not following a command or behavior while you're gone isn't really along the same lines. That's a dog with a personality that wants to escape a yard and will if you don't tell it not to... but if it will listen to you when you DO tell it not to, then it's still a trained dog... it doesn't mean it has ADHD when you go away, it just means that particular dog needs to be supervised or they find their own things to do.



Crantastic said:


> I wonder how they're sure... do they set up hidden cameras? I've heard a lot of stories about dogs who "know" they aren't allowed on the couch, but sleep on it anyway when their people are gone.


I also wonder...

I mean, Frag won't get into the garbage while we're here by any means, but the second we leave he will destroy it and we had to learn that the hard way... and I certainly don't think he's broken or expect him not to when it's not something I can reinforce while I'm away. I just keep the garbage up.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> I wonder how they're sure... do they set up hidden cameras? I've heard a lot of stories about dogs who "know" they aren't allowed on the couch, but sleep on it anyway when their people are gone.


At least for furniture, with some dogs you can tell if fur is left on it. 
I would bet a million dollars that my dog is NEVER on the couch. But for Soro it wasn't even a matter of training 'off' or 'only allowed on if invited.' If I had trained him that way I wouldn't be 100% sure except for the fur or if I used a camera. But the fact is he was raised from 12 weeks old never being allowed on furniture. Once when he was older I was curious and invited him onto the couch. He jumped up, turned around a few times, and jumped off without being asked. The very concept of being on a couch is just not in his system. 
It would be very easy to get him used to it. When I had a low bed I decided I would sometimes (like once a week) let him sleep with me. Same reaction as the couch at first. But after a few minutes of repetition he got the idea. After that DAY he would come over and rest his head on the bed when I was on it, asking to be let on. Old habits die quickly in this case. I am pretty sure he did not get on my bed when I was away. But I would not bet a million dollars on this.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I disagree! Puppies go through all sorts of stages where they regress, unlearn, can't learn, learn quickly, etc.
> 
> My pup was the very perfect puppy at the end of his first 4 weeks of puppy class. For the second 4 weeks, he was a hellion and absolutely refused do anything other than lunge at the other puppies during class. Now, in his next class, he's gone back to being pretty good again (even compared to the adult dogs who have taken this class before), and has started learning things at an extremely high rate. He went from taking 3-4 weeks to learn anything, to learning in just a couple sessions. I think all puppies develop at different rates and to some extent do grow out of the spazzy puppy brain stuff, though consistent training throughout obviously helps.


I agree with what you've said.
My dog is 2 and he is still going through stages where he is perfect, regresses and then needs to relearn.
My dog had great recall at one point, to where I'd feel comfortable walking him in on the sidewalk off-leash, even around dogs. Then one day he decided to run into the street to get to another dog. We just got lucky he didn't get hurt.
And then it happened a couple more times(no running into the street thank god) where he ignored "come" and "heel". I deemed it was time to work on his commands again and he was regressing.
He's still on a long 50ft lead these days while we make sure he's back to 100%.

This isn't the first time he's regressed either. Happened when he turned 1 as well and of course during the young puppy years. One of these years he's bound to come around for good.

I would say being consistent is the best thing you can do for your dog. One of my mentors always spoke of at least 10-15 minutes a day of just going over commands with your dog, doing little drills, whatever kind of training you need to address.
However, I haven't always been so good about that.


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

JulieK1967 said:


> Awwww. Poor little one. Glad no one got hurt. I never knew another dog but my own to react that way to a scare like this. I have a funny video of my Molly telling off the neighborhood after a similar scare of a large off leash dog running up to us.


Awwwww!

I didn't know what to make of it when Lucky continued to bark. I was afraid he was going to be scarred forever and, to tell you the truth, he has since started barking at bigger dogs. Not sure if that will happen all the time, but it's happened a couple times since the incident when a bigger dog has been several feet away.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

lisahi said:


> Awwwww!
> 
> I didn't know what to make of it when Lucky continued to bark. I was afraid he was going to be scarred forever and, to tell you the truth, he has since started barking at bigger dogs. Not sure if that will happen all the time, but it's happened a couple times since the incident when a bigger dog has been several feet away.


Obviously every dog is different but if it helps, Molly didn't show any long term negative effects from her encounter. She was upset at the moment and for a little while afterward but she's fine with other dogs, even larger ones, though we don't meet too many b/c I don't often let her meet other dogs when I don't know them or their owner.


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## basudo (Jan 18, 2013)

I'm a big fan of offleash when they're little, literally within days of coming home. Granted, I do have really awesome places to take them -- isolated trails, fields, etc. That is the key part to me. I would never risk an offleash pup close to any kind of roadway. Maybe I've been lucky with mine, but I never had any kind of issue with them not wanting to stay close. Then it got easier as the older dog(s) helped "teach" the newcomer how the thing works, lol. There certainly were periods of some adolescent revolt, though. Offleash is a risk, but one I think is worth it if you have the right environment.

I have also found that by doing this early and often, as they got older, they didn't freak out and bolt when the leash was off.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

basudo said:


> I have also found that by doing this early and often, as they got older, they didn't freak out and bolt when the leash was off.


This is a thing for me - if NOTHING ELSE, I train hard to make sure my dogs don't respond to an open door or a dropped leash as so enticing, so novel, so irresistible (or so scary), that they simply MUST. RUN. Because the first time THAT happens, and there's no other opportunity in their lives, they're going to see every single opportunity to do just that. Or, rather, the dogs I had would do so. Running was just that self-rewarding, that once they had that first opportunity as the result of a 'mistake' or 'accident', and they weren't used to it? It became A Thing. 

Starting those leash drops and off leash time young FOR ME is a big deal. 

But again: No roads, no huskies or hounds or breeds known for running and running and running. That's part of my managing the risks, too.


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## basudo (Jan 18, 2013)

CptJack said:


> This is a thing for me - if NOTHING ELSE, I train hard to make sure my dogs don't respond to an open door or a dropped leash as so enticing, so novel, so irresistible (or so scary), that they simply MUST. RUN. Because the first time THAT happens, and there's no other opportunity in their lives, they're going to see every single opportunity to do just that. Or, rather, the dogs I had would do so. Running was just that self-rewarding, that once they had that first opportunity as the result of a 'mistake' or 'accident', and they weren't used to it? It became A Thing.
> 
> Starting those leash drops and off leash time young FOR ME is a big deal.
> 
> But again: No roads, no huskies or hounds or breeds known for running and running and running. That's part of my managing the risks, too.


Yup, I'm with you. I just love offleash. Not just because I don't like managing a bunch of leashes, but because .. I don't know how to explain it... just feel we're a bonded pack when we go galavanting off on the trails together. I really love it, makes me feel at peace. I did have to rescind my Shiba Inu's off-leash license, though.  When she turned about 2 or a bit after, she decided she didn't want to stay around with everyone else. So she gets to drag a long lead or be on a lead unless its a very secure environment. The other girl is nearly blind, so she's needing to be on some kind of line as well for her own safety...


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

So you will "expect" a puppy to "know" how to do offense but I am rediculous for expecting my 2 year old dog who has has boundary training (she was an orphan with no mom ... I think that makes a huge difference) I'm not leaving her out I unintended while I leave the property, when I do she is out up in an escape proof run. 

She knows she is doing wrong (she doesn't "fly" over the fence ... More like she puts her front feet on the fence & "falls" over lol) but with management (checking on her a lot & yapping on the window when she is near the fence).

I just do not subscribe to the belief that I have to be out with my dogs up their butts every second they are outside, otherwise I'd be out there all day as they stay outside all day! IMHO the dog never learns independent thinking "if I do this, I lose privileges" (she gets a time out when we find her out) & it seems to be working ... t least for her, I know she wants to get out but so far she thinks twice about it.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

lisahi said:


> I haven't read all the responses in this thread, but just responding to the initial post, I have a particular pet peeve against off-leash walking a dog in a neighborhood setting (I'm not sure I have an opinion if you're out in ranchland or not near other homes). Near a road I would say, no... not unless the dog is VERY well trained with excellent recall.
> 
> As for my pet peeve, there are people on my block who off-leash walk their dogs, or let their dog out off-leash into their front yard to do their business. I come walking by with my leashed dogs and inevitably the unleashed dog makes a beeline for me and mine. It often turns out poorly because leashed dogs and unleashed dogs should not meet in that manner. A couple days ago I was walking my two dogs when I saw a woman walking on the other side of the street coming towards me. I didn't see, at that moment, the large dog that was walking beside her, unleashed. The large dog ran across the street to my two small dogs, scaring them half to death and causing my puppy (only around 10lbs and 11 months old) to bark at the front door for 15 minutes straight after we got back inside my house. We were lucky that the larger dog was not aggressive, although unlucky that the dog's assertive play style did not comport with playing with dogs half his size.


Ditto! I HATE 99.99% of the owners of off leash dogs in my neighborhood. They haven't trained their dogs to stay beside them no matter what, and inevitably run out after my 3 leashed dogs, and start fights. All the while the owner is yelling "He's friendly!", as the dogs are fighting. Keep your dogs on a leash unless in an area where off leash dogs are allowed and your dog has a 100% recall no ,atter what the distraction.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> So you will "expect" a puppy to "know" how to do offense but I am rediculous for expecting my 2 year old dog who has has boundary training (she was an orphan with no mom ... I think that makes a huge difference) I'm not leaving her out I unintended while I leave the property, when I do she is out up in an escape proof run.
> 
> She knows she is doing wrong (she doesn't "fly" over the fence ... More like she puts her front feet on the fence & "falls" over lol) but with management (checking on her a lot & yapping on the window when she is near the fence).
> 
> I just do not subscribe to the belief that I have to be out with my dogs up their butts every second they are outside, otherwise I'd be out there all day as they stay outside all day! IMHO the dog never learns independent thinking "if I do this, I lose privileges" (she gets a time out when we find her out) & it seems to be working ... t least for her, I know she wants to get out but so far she thinks twice about it.


I don't really understand what your first paragraph is supposed to say. 

Yes, you are ridiculous for expecting your dog to stay in your yard and not entertain herself when you are not present. That is silly. "fly"... "haul".. what is the difference? If you don't tell her not to, she goes over. 

Dogs that are left outside to tend to themselves get into trouble. It has nothing to do with some dogs "just" being ADHD and being like that. It has to do with manangement and training. You should know that because she listens to you when you ARE there to tell her no. So it's not her, it's you.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> So you will "expect" a puppy to "know" how to do offense but I am rediculous for expecting my 2 year old dog who has has boundary training (she was an orphan with no mom ... I think that makes a huge difference) I'm not leaving her out I unintended while I leave the property, when I do she is out up in an escape proof run.
> 
> She knows she is doing wrong (she doesn't "fly" over the fence ... More like she puts her front feet on the fence & "falls" over lol) but with management (checking on her a lot & yapping on the window when she is near the fence).
> 
> I just do not subscribe to the belief that I have to be out with my dogs up their butts every second they are outside, otherwise I'd be out there all day as they stay outside all day! IMHO the dog never learns independent thinking "if I do this, I lose privileges" (she gets a time out when we find her out) & it seems to be working ... t least for her, I know she wants to get out but so far she thinks twice about it.


What exactly would be your advice to someone who came to this forum and said, "When I go inside and leave my dog outside in the yard, she climbs over the fence! I can't stay outside with her all day... what should I do?"

I don't stay outside with my dogs "up their butts" every second they are out in the yard, either... but my dogs don't climb over the fence anymore. When we still had the shorter chain link and Maisy could get over it, I WAS outside with her every second until we replaced the fence. It's just what you have to do with a dog who can and will go over the fence if you actually think it's a problem.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I am another one who walks her puppies off lead in a safe area. Even when we had the Greyhounds, I used to walk the whole litter off leash from the time they were five weeks old tilll they were sold at 8 weeks, (and the ones we kept we kept walking off lead.) At that age, they do not wander far and if you keep walking, they stay with you. The dogs I have now, including Susie (my Bernese cross) were all walked off leash from the time they were young and still are from the youngest to the oldest. I would not walk them off leash where there is traffic but we are lucky enough to have hundreds of acres to walk them in. They never go far and if they start to get too far in front, we turn and walk the other way and they all come running. I feel a lot safer letting them off when they are young than waiting till they are older, then just letting them off leash.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

But I have an advantage because I can see every pinch of my yard thanks to panoramic picture windows in the house (& I mean every inch) so she is never really 'unsupervised' I actually was hyper vigilant (she only got over the fence twice) & we have 60 acres that is goat/coyote proof so she cant get off our property.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> But I have an advantage because I can see every pinch of my yard thanks to panoramic picture windows in the house (& I mean every inch) so she is never really 'unsupervised' I actually was hyper vigilant (she only got over the fence twice) & we have 60 acres that is goat/coyote proof so she cant get off our property.


But the reason she is jumping the fence is because you're not there to say no, whether you can see her or not.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> But the reason she is jumping the fence is because you're not there to say no, whether you can see her or not.


But she does not ddo it anymore (it was only twice when I was ill & not watching out the windows like I do) when I see her approaching the fence with 'the look' I'll knock on the window, as soon as she knows someone is made her she doesnt do it again, that she is very good about, when you catch her doing wrong & correct her, she doesnt to that thing again... or at least tries not to. She may 'forget' a few times while she is learning, but she is all in all a very sharp dog who catches on quick to new rules & routines.

She is not a 'bad' dog (albiet I will admit to being frustrated many times) she is just a little naive LOL


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> But she does not ddo it anymore (it was only twice when I was ill & not watching out the windows like I do) when I see her approaching the fence with 'the look' I'll knock on the window, as soon as she knows someone is made her she doesnt do it again, that she is very good about, when you catch her doing wrong & correct her, she doesnt to that thing again... or at least tries not to. She may 'forget' a few times while she is learning, but she is all in all a very sharp dog who catches on quick to new rules & routines.
> 
> She is not a 'bad' dog (albiet I will admit to being frustrated many times) she is just a little naive LOL


That is my point!  there aren't dogs that are just set to be ADHD and ignore their owners, it is all a stage in training and motivations.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Well, Josefina (though I love her even though at times it doesnt sound like it LOL) is a "givr an inch & she'll take a mile" kind of dog. So if you give her an "Im watching you" Vibe, she will usually be on her best behavior... of course, she she is making an effort to be good she gets lots of PR


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

To the OP: a really good blog entry from Patricia McConnell on how you'll know if your dog is ok to be off leash. She has pretty high standards for it. I think many DF members would be a bit more lenient (not me - I have a runner). But a good read.

http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/safe-off-leash


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

winniec777 said:


> To the OP: a really good blog entry from Patricia McConnell on how you'll know if your dog is ok to be off leash. She has pretty high standards for it. I think many DF members would be a bit more lenient (not me - I have a runner). But a good read.
> 
> http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/safe-off-leash


Good article!
Interesting note on the "Stop" bit. Soro knows to stop and I agree it is a very useful command. But one thing I found I do differently is Patricia describes recall as a three step process (stop, turn, come), thereby making it a higher requirement than simply asking a dog to stop. At least for my dog, in the heat of a chase it's much easier for him to turn back to me (but continue running!) rather than make a dead stop. I read somewhere long ago that asking a dog to stop at a distraction might be too passive, when all that dog wants to do is move. So let the dog move, but in an appropriate way (ie towards you, with you, etc).


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Canyx said:


> Good article!
> Interesting note on the "Stop" bit. Soro knows to stop and I agree it is a very useful command. But one thing I found I do differently is Patricia describes recall as a three step process (stop, turn, come), thereby making it a higher requirement than simply asking a dog to stop. At least for my dog, in the heat of a chase it's much easier for him to turn back to me (but continue running!) rather than make a dead stop. I read somewhere long ago that asking a dog to stop at a distraction might be too passive, when all that dog wants to do is move. So let the dog move, but in an appropriate way (ie towards you, with you, etc).


I know this is totally OT but I have to say ... I LOVE your siggys


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I have used the arch approach instead of using the hang them on a long line which I hate.. I send the dog at the decoy and run on lead with the dog, give the out, and go straight in to the arc giving changing direction calling the heel which is back to the handler when off leash for us, running back to where we started and coming a sitting heel position with the dog again facing the decoy. Think lots of things help when you work on physical act of body movement.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I never have my dogs off leash around the streets here. I think they would be ok, but there's always the chance that they might take off after a cat. I do let them off leash in the nearby bush area, and they always wait when asked and come running back when asked. They were both around 14-15 months old when I started letting them off leash on walks, and we went from normal leash to long line first, so I could make sure they would recall or wait when asked to, before being completely off leash.

There was one night a few months ago where I was walking the dogs around the streets. It was really late and we didn't see any cars at all the whole walk. The dogs kept stopping and sniffing and I was starting to toy with the idea to just let them off leash the last block back to our house. As I was contemplating this, Pixie had stopped to sniff a pole, about half a metre from the road. While she was standing there, the only car for the whole walk drove past us, and just as it drove past, there was some noise in the distance which startled Pixie and she jumped. If the leash hadn't stopped her, she would have landed under the front wheel of the car.

So now there is no way they are off leash near streets, at all, ever. Even if you have the most well trained dog in the world, stuff can still happen that you have no control over and that training can't prevent/fix. And really, if the dog is staying near you and not going anywhere anyway, you might has well have a leash attached to it.


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