# Teaching a Dog to "Hold" a Command Position



## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

We're going to be doing formal obedience classes and service dog training, so this is just a way for me to get a head start on what we'll be doing when we hit basic and then advanced obedience 

I've been reading a lot of talk (Elena) about teaching a dog to hold a position until she is released from it or given another job to do. How do you train this? When the dog breaks the position, how do you correct? I don't want to use punishment if I can help it, so without punishment, how do you teach a dog to hold the position that you are commanding of the animal?

Just curious. We're working on "sit" right now and she only understands that it means butt on floor. Not to keep the button the floor without laying down.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm training it just like I would train stay, but without the actually command "stay."

1) Started with plain ol' sit. Butt hits the ground = click and treat.
2) When she was doing this 95% of the time, I started to up the duration. I asked her to sit and waited three seconds, then five, then seven, then ten, etc before c&t.
3) I also started breaking eye contact at this point. I didn't move my head or body, just looked away from her while I counted the seconds.
4) Right now I'm working on movement. I ask her to sit about a foot away from me. I step toward her one step, then back one step, then c&t.

I plan on just adding in steps. Eventually I should be able to walk all the way around her, where she can't see me, then I can work on walking away from her.

I have no idea if this is the "correct" way, but it seems to be working all right. Pumbaa is constantly in motion, so this is an extremely difficult exercise for her. Alvin can do a stay for eternity, only partially because he knows what "stay" means. A major factor in his lovely stays is the fact that he doesn't _want _to get up again once he's sitting/lying down, lol.

I'm interested to see what others have to say, since I'm working on this right now, too.


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Okay, then I'm on the right track because that's what I was thinking. She's still pretty young and we're only working on "sit" right now but this is going to be really important for us as time goes on. I need to get my husband on board and working on training with her as well so that she knows that when he tells her to "sit" he means it just as much as I mean it. I can't wait to get outside this spring and really work at this. Loose Leash Walking is only a couple of weeks away as far as starting too!


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

The way I do it is similar. I taught the sit the same way. Then I stretched out the sit to help her understand stay. I say "sit" and click/treat when her but hits the ground. I don't say anything else and she just sits there staring at me. Without another word, I click and treat. Wait 20 more seconds and click and treat. Wait 30 seconds, etc. The whole time I am silent and clicking and treating because she is sitting without moving at all. I use my release word, make some dramatic movement, and when she gets up I click and treat again. I rub her and tell her how good she is, then we do it all again.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Everyday Miracles said:


> We're going to be doing formal obedience classes and service dog training, so this is just a way for me to get a head start on what we'll be doing when we hit basic and then advanced obedience
> 
> I've been reading a lot of talk (Elena) about teaching a dog to hold a position until she is released from it or given another job to do. How do you train this? When the dog breaks the position, how do you correct? I don't want to use punishment if I can help it, so without punishment, how do you teach a dog to hold the position that you are commanding of the animal?
> 
> Just curious. We're working on "sit" right now and she only understands that it means butt on floor. Not to keep the button the floor without laying down.


I "300 peck" it. Start with clicking immediately, then one second before I click, then two, then three, etc. If the dog breaks before we get to the count we've been working on - no click, and back to one second, build the duration back up. When the dog is at 15 seconds, I will take one step away (distance) but take it back down to one second and build back up to 15, then two steps, etc. I tend to step to the side instead of away from the dog as most dogs don't take that as an invitation to come.


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> I "300 peck" it. Start with clicking immediately, then one second before I click, then two, then three, etc. If the dog breaks before we get to the count we've been working on - no click, and back to one second, build the duration back up. When the dog is at 15 seconds, I will take one step away (distance) but take it back down to one second and build back up to 15, then two steps, etc. I tend to step to the side instead of away from the dog as most dogs don't take that as an invitation to come.


This helps. Thank you!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I teach it the same way pretty much (getting the sit) but eventually work on oppositional reflex. This means I push on the dog (gently!!!) on his shoulders, down his legs, push and pull sideways.. the dog is allowed to shift and brace himself ONCE and then he is to lock up. What this does is take a passive exercise and make it more an active exercise. I want the dog to _fight_ my pushing and pulling and lock his musles so I cannot move him. 

If the dog breaks I put the dog back in the sit and back off some of what I have been asking. A dog breaking usually means he does not understand the exercise (duration) or he is not taking the exercise seriously. 

Remember.. even those of us who DO use corrections (in addition to positive reinforcement and operant conditioning) that corrections are NOT used on puppies under one year old.. and puppies need to be trained and have manners. The object is to set the puppy up for success. It is what you do with dogs too.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Another thing to work on would be 'foot cues'.


With puppies, I like to use my left foot for teaching heel, so I will begin by merely bending my left knee a very miniscule amount, .. c/t and feed position for 'moving' with me.

For teaching stay or wait, I begin by bending my right knee ever-so-slightly, .. c/t and feed position for NOT 'moving' with me.

After each time, the dog is reset if need be, and the game starts over.



Remember to break these down into their smallest possible components, which again .. begins with the mere bending of either knee, ... and progress slowly from there.


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## Shandwill (Jul 23, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Another thing to work on would be 'foot cues'.
> 
> 
> With puppies, I like to use my left foot for teaching heel, so I will begin by merely bending my left knee a very miniscule amount, .. c/t and feed position for 'moving' with me.
> ...


Not to hijack, but...does it matter which leg you use for heel and which you use for stay? I've been taught L for stay/leaving dog and R for heeling, but my mom was taught the opposite years ago when doing utility work. Does it matter?


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> If the dog breaks I put the dog back in the sit and back off some of what I have been asking. A dog breaking usually means he does not understand the exercise (duration) or he is not taking the exercise seriously.


I keep seeing you say this, and I'm confused, so forgive me. I know that you are probably making _the_ clearest statement and I'm just being thick. But _how_ do you reposition your dog? I have the impression from other posts of yours that you do not recue the dog, so are you physically moving it bck into position at this point? And if so, how? Or _do_ you recue the dog?

I also know that it's a possibility to wait until the dog does this on its own, but I'm not sure whether or not to expect that to happen at this point, since we're so early in training. 

It is strange to me that I only heard about a dog holding a command _recently_ given that this is not the first dog I've trained!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Shandwill said:


> Not to hijack, but...does it matter which leg you use for heel and which you use for stay? I've been taught L for stay/leaving dog and R for heeling, but my mom was taught the opposite years ago when doing utility work. Does it matter?


Actually, since you've mentioned it ... I prefer R leg heeling, as it helps some dogs to overcome an immediate lag, thus ALWAYS maintaining proper position right from the get-go. 

For simplicity's sake ... just thought I'd go with the likely majority, .. old-school style 


.. sorry, didn't mean to deviate :focus:


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

PiperPuppy said:


> The way I do it is similar. I taught the sit the same way. Then I stretched out the sit to help her understand stay. I say "sit" and click/treat when her but hits the ground. I don't say anything else and she just sits there staring at me. Without another word, I click and treat. Wait 20 more seconds and click and treat. Wait 30 seconds, etc. The whole time I am silent and clicking and treating because she is sitting without moving at all. I use my release word, make some dramatic movement, and when she gets up I click and treat again. I rub her and tell her how good she is, then we do it all again.


You've brought up a couple of questions that I have with this whole process. Pumbaa is my first clicker dog, so I'm fairly certain most of the time that I have no idea what I'm doing. Having said that, I was given to understand that the click and treat signals the successful _completion _of the exercise, which would mean your dog would be free to move as soon as it heard the click. Am I misinterpreting what a click means or am I misinterpreting what you're doing?

Second question is how to work the release word in there. Pumbaa pretty much knows her release word (okay) from moments when I am not armed with my clicker, but I rarely have a chance to use it when I'm working with the clicker because, as I said, I thought the click signaled the end of the exercise and have therefore been allowing Pumbaa to get up as soon as she hears that click. Where do I insert the release word? Or should I simply not worry with it right now? I mean, I'm going to have to fade out the clicker at some point; should I fade _in _the release word as I do that?


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

I thought somebody said to c/t the release word the same way that you do the command. I could be wrong, but I know that's how I do it.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I thought the c/t signalled the END of the exercise, though. So, I've got Pumbaa in a sit and I'm walking around her. I click and treat to indicate she has successfully completed the exercise and, as a result, she gets up and wanders away. I thought that was how it was supposed to work, but then I can't click and treat the release word because the click has alreadly released her.

What does it look like when you c/t the stay and then c/t the release word?


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Yeah, I don't know about Stay. I have ALWAYS had issues with that command, mainly because my mentality is that it shouldn't be a necessary command if your dog holds the command it was given first. "Stay" just seems like an extra word thrown in there and I've never done a lot of work with it. And yes, I'm sensible enough to be embarrassed by that.

My other problem with "stay" is that I don't know how to teach it without using R- or P+, so I've kind of become frustrated with trying to find positive ways to teach this command. 

I would think, then, that you would give the command (let's say "down") and then c/t when the dog assumes the position that you want. Then follow the above instructions with c/t every however many seconds. Then, when you want to release the dog, give the release word and when s/he gets up, c/t again, so that the dog understands what the c/t means.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> I thought the c/t signalled the END of the exercise, though. So, I've got Pumbaa in a sit and I'm walking around her. I click and treat to indicate she has successfully completed the exercise and, as a result, she gets up and wanders away. I thought that was how it was supposed to work, but then I can't click and treat the release word because the click has alreadly released her.
> 
> What does it look like when you c/t the stay and then c/t the release word?


C/T does not equal the end of the exercise it is just a mark that what they just did was what you wanted. You should c/t and then release.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Everyday Miracles said:


> Yeah, I don't know about Stay. I have ALWAYS had issues with that command, mainly because my mentality is that it shouldn't be a necessary command if your dog holds the command it was given first. "Stay" just seems like an extra word thrown in there and I've never done a lot of work with it. And yes, I'm sensible enough to be embarrassed by that.
> 
> My other problem with "stay" is that I don't know how to teach it without using R- or P+, so I've kind of become frustrated with trying to find positive ways to teach this command.
> 
> I would think, then, that you would give the command (let's say "down") and then c/t when the dog assumes the position that you want. Then follow the above instructions with c/t every however many seconds. Then, when you want to release the dog, give the release word and when s/he gets up, c/t again, so that the dog understands what the c/t means.


I'm sorry, I shouldn't have thrown the word stay in there. I'm training the dog, as you are, to hold a sit or a down without the command "stay." I should have asked what it looks like when you c/t for the held sit and then c/t for the release word. 



katielou said:


> C/T does not equal the end of the exercise it is just a mark that what they just did was what you wanted. You should c/t and then release.


But if the dog has done what I wanted, then isn't the exercise over? I mean, once the dog has done the sit or the down or the speak or whatever the way I've asked, then what is there to do except move on to the next exercise? I just don't see how it makes sense to ask the dog to hold the sit, reward her for holding it correctly, and then expect her to keep doing it even though she's already done it correctly.

This article would seem to agree with me, but still doesn't address the issue of how to work in a release word.

Wait...I lied. Quote from the article:



> But [the clicker] also promotes repetition of the behavior. Once the behavior has been repeated to the point of being learned, and is on cue and being performed with confidence, we don't really need to mark it any more. We can use words or gestures to either signal for more behavior or to signal a halt, depending on what we want.


That sounds like what I said earlier about fading _in _the release word as I fade _out _the clicker.


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Haha, I take everything literally. Sorry!



FilleBelle said:


> But if the dog has done what I wanted, then isn't the exercise over? I mean, once the dog has done the sit or the down or the speak or whatever the way I've asked, then what is there to do except move on to the next exercise? I just don't see how it makes sense to ask the dog to hold the sit, reward her for holding it correctly, and then expect her to keep doing it even though she's already done it correctly.


I think that depends on what you _want_. If you want the dog to hold the position, then you need to teach the dog that you want it to hold (instead of moving on to the next exercise). If you want the dog to have separate commands for (for example) sit and stay, then you could move on to the "stay" command after the "sit" I suppose. But I know that I want to dispense with the "stay" command entirely when we're done with training. I don't see it as being necessary if Libby knows that Sit means "sit and hold."

Wait... I just re-read what you're saying. Once you've rewarded her for holding it correctly, would you release, c/t?


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> I'm sorry, I shouldn't have thrown the word stay in there. I'm training the dog, as you are, to hold a sit or a down without the command "stay." I should have asked what it looks like when you c/t for the held sit and then c/t for the release word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think i will work different for different people. 
I want my dogs to stay in whatever i have told them until i release them or give them another command.
My click is only to mark the behavior i wanted it doesn't mean they should stop that behavior just because i have recognized that they have done it right.

For example if i asked my dog to sit he sits and hold it i c/t
Then he looks to me for what next.
Now i either release him with "fall out" or i ask for something else "down" for example.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

*repositioning the dog on a broken command cue*
I physically model the dog back into the sit. I do not repeat the cue. I said sit. The dog sat. The dog chose to stop sitting. I physically put the dog back in a sit anyway that is quick, efficient and gets the dog sitting. When the dog sits I say, "Gooooood" in a soft way to let her know that is what I want. A click or yes is too abrupt and it is always followed by food or toy play and that is NOT what I want to do. 

*release word*
I no longer use a clicker.. I use a marker but not a clicker. Not saying you cannot use one, saying that I do not nor do the top people that I learn from in my sport (Koutsky, Babalanov and Bauman). That being said, I started Atka with a clicker. the click and reward marked the correct behavior. It did not signal the behavior stop. 
fact is the release word is that.. and applies only to that exercise. McDevitt in Control Unleashed uses a release word. It means this particular thing is over, but it does not mean the dog can run off willy nilly. 

Clicking and treating means you have marked what the dog got right. If you think about training the sit you first click and treat anything that is any sort of motion toward the sit... and eventually you get the sit.. and reward that.. and eventually you get duration and you click and treat that. Now you HAVE the sit. The dog sits when you say it. DROP THE CLICKER. Ask the dog to sit. The dogs sits. Wait 3 seconds (or 1 second if that is all you can be successful at) and then say OK or ENOUGH or GO AHEAD and whip out the food or the toy or what ever and engage the dog in play. 

The clicker gets the dog on the cue. The release means we are done working for now and can play for a second. A good trainer will incorporate the release word and play frequently throughout the training session so the dog cannot wait to work. When the session is OVER the play and fun is for a bit as well. 

This does not mean you do not play with your dog outside of training sessions. You do and you should. What I have found effective is to have special toys that the dog only gets when engaged with play with me in a training session or outside. If I can I build a desire for a really special toy that I use as a reward during training. 

Of course, you need to tailor this program to your dog.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm definitely coming back to this thread, but I have to go to an appointment first. See you in a bit!


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Elana55 said:


> *repositioning the dog on a broken command cue*
> I physically model the dog back into the sit. I do not repeat the cue. I said sit. The dog sat. The dog chose to stop sitting. I physically put the dog back in a sit anyway that is quick, efficient and gets the dog sitting. When the dog sits I say, "Gooooood" in a soft way to let her know that is what I want. A click or yes is too abrupt and it is always followed by food or toy play and that is NOT what I want to do.


I had somehow gotten the impression somewhere along the lines that this was considered too corrective with some dogs. Am I wrong, or misunderstanding something? I don't have to be a "hands off" trainer, but I do want to make sure that the training sessions remain as positive as possible in order to encourage communication. 

How often do you have to physically model the behavior before it is learned? I mean in general lol Obviously there are no hard and fast rules!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Remember.. I have trained the behavior already. IOW's I have used a marker and rewards to teach the dog what I want. Now I want duration. I do not model the dog into the behavior at the outset. Training the behavior initially is similar to what the clicker folks do (I just use a different marker). 

AFTER the dog understands the cue to sit and the dog breaks is when I physically model the dog back into the sit. This is not done in a brutal or rough manner. Most of my dogs sit if I gently life the collar (note gentle lift, not choke or yank.. the gentle lift is that.. it is firm as well). since the dog cannot go forward or backward, most respond to the lift by sitting. When the dog regains the sit I say, "goooood" low and soft and with what I hope conveys quiet encouragement. 

Man.. that sounds hokey as heck when I write it.. but I really don't have another way of expressing it in words!!!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> I thought the c/t signalled the END of the exercise, though.


I always hear this but I never used it like this for Wally.

Click = "what you just did was right", not "okay you can actually stop doing it now"

That's why I have a release word - to tell him when he can stop doing whatever.



FilleBelle said:


> What does it look like when you c/t the stay and then c/t the release word?


If you mean just holding position or cuing his freeze behavior (i.e. stay, and yes, I consider stay a behavior not a position as it's triggering the freeze defense/hunting behavior)

For Wally and I:

If its holding position, I cue the position. C/T. If he remains in it, I keep c/t him. I move around, he can watch me move, but not move or change position, getting c/t the whole time.

Then I give my release, when he moves, he gets c/t. So if he's in a sit, and I say "let's go" (release to me/move with me) or "okay <next instruction>" (released from previous instruction, but follow given instruction) - he get's c/t when he does the proper thing. 

If it's marking the freeze behavior, I c/t when he freezes and for as long as he stays frozen. Then c/t the release as above. 

Click for me doesn't end the stay - it marks the actual behavior of freezing/stopping movement.

(by c/t - I mean mark and reward - not necessarily using a literal clicker and literal treats.)



Everyday Miracles said:


> I had somehow gotten the impression somewhere along the lines that this was considered too corrective with some dogs. Am I wrong, or misunderstanding something? I don't have to be a "hands off" trainer, but I do want to make sure that the training sessions remain as positive as possible in order to encourage communication.


I stay hands off. The only touching is if we're working on something by targeting (and then that's him touching me). Wally's "soft" and sensitive so physically positioning him isn't going to do much but get him concerned/uncertain, and that's not conducive to his learning.

It depends on the dog and his temperament and how he responds to various things. Not all dogs will get uncertain/worried about behind physically positioned, some won't be phased, some, it might make something of a point to them.


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

KBLover said:


> If you mean just holding position or cuing his freeze behavior (i.e. stay, and yes, I consider stay a behavior not a position as it's triggering the freeze defense/hunting behavior)


That makes way more sense than what I was thinking. Thanks!


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

> Click = "what you just did was right", not "okay you can actually stop doing it now"
> 
> That's why I have a release word - to tell him when he can stop doing whatever.


This is how I do it. My first clicker related instruction was through Kikopups on you tube. I followed up with Karen Pryor's book and CD. Both trainers click for wanted behaviors, not to cue the dog that he is done.





> The whole time I am silent and clicking and treating because she is sitting without moving at all. I use my release word, make some dramatic movement, and when she gets up I click and treat again.


I am training stay, but not using the word "stay" yet. I am pretty much trying to train her that when I give a command, she is to do it until I say otherwise. We are doing very short time spans since Piper is only 5 months old. But as she matures, she will be able to hold a position for longer.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Hm...I am using Karen Pryor, too, which is where I got the idea that the c/t signals the successful completion of a behavior. Did anyone read the article I linked to? I also see this definition on her website:



> *Release word*
> A word that signals the end of a behavior. After a behavior is strong and on cue, clicker trainers replace the clicker with a release word.


I understand this to mean that the c/t stands in for the release word until the clicker is faded out, at which point an actual release word is used.




PiperPuppy said:


> Both trainers click for wanted behaviors, not to cue the dog that he is done.


This is exactly why the c/t has been synonymous with a release word for me as I've been working with Pumbaa on holding sits. Let us say that she has mastered holding a sit for 45 seconds and the next behavior I want is holding a sit for one minute. I tell her to sit and she does. Then we hang around (with her in a sit, of course) for one minute. When the minute is up, I click and treat because I got the behavior I wanted (sitting for a minute). I don't click and treat _during _that minute because I haven't gotten the wanted behavior (sitting for a minute) yet. Once I have gotten the wanted behavior and I've c/t, she can stop doing it. She might do it AGAIN, mind you, but I don't need her to KEEP doing it if I've already marked it with the c/t. Like "roll over"...once she's rolled all the way over and I've c/t for the wanted behavior, I would expect her to get up and wait for something else to do, not just keep rolling around my living room. I'm not even sure I would know how to give a treat to a dog that wouldn't stop rolling over long enough to take it, lol.

I suspect we are all getting the behavior we want out of our different methods, but it's clear the clicker gets a little tricky in the case of holding positions (or stays or whatever you want to call them). Iinstead of the c/t marking a movement, as it usually does, it's marking a non-movement and that's weird.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

The click *does* signal the end of the behavior. When you are shaping something, you don't have the whole thing, right? When you click, that's the dog's signal he is going to get reinforced. In many many cases, getting reinforced is incompatible with whatever you are clicking for.

I no longer use a clicker for stays, because you can have problems where you end up reinforcing the release from the stay. I train stays almost identically to Elana, except I DO say "stay." I use it for sit, down, and stand, and can say "stay" no matter what position Gatsby is in and he'll freeze. For a little while, anyway, I haven't worked much duration to it yet. But that was a goal of mine and specifically to get a freeze in position cue was why I chose to use the verbal. Sit, down, and stand have duration on them as well, but if I was going to expect my dog to stay in place for any appreciable time I would use "stay."

Physically repositioning can be aversive to some dogs, it's going to depend on the dog. Gatsby does not like it, but I don't WANT him to like it. It is mild, mild punishment for breaking position. For some dogs it will be too much, but for Gatsby it's enough.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> The click *does* signal the end of the behavior. When you are shaping something, you don't have the whole thing, right? When you click, that's the dog's signal he is going to get reinforced. In many many cases, getting reinforced is incompatible with whatever you are clicking for.


That's interesting because what Wally does is do the same thing that got the click, and if it's standing where he is - well, he'll stand where he is and *I* come to *him* to deliver the treat. In *his* mind, it does not mean "okay, I can stop what I'm doing."

And if the click *must* signal end of the behavior, my method for training him to stay would have failed from day one (because he would have broken it, so I'd have to constantly re-cue and never get duration). Instead, he has a strong, solid stay.

After all, proper marker timing is marking the instant the behavior occurs, right? So if I say stay and he freezes - I mark the instant he freezes, and he picked that up.

Stay -> I freeze -> I get click/reward -> I stay frozen -> I keep getting click/rewards. 

He figured it out - and if it's "wrong" well, he's the "10th dog" anyway so chalk another one to the list.


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

> This is exactly why the c/t has been synonymous with a release word for me as I've been working with Pumbaa on holding sits. Let us say that she has mastered holding a sit for 45 seconds and the next behavior I want is holding a sit for one minute. I tell her to sit and she does. Then we hang around (with her in a sit, of course) for one minute. When the minute is up, I click and treat because I got the behavior I wanted (sitting for a minute). I don't click and treat during that minute because I haven't gotten the wanted behavior


The reason I am clicking _during_ the frozen position is because I am still *shaping the behavior*. We have not gotten a solid "stay" yet. Therefore, I am reinforcing what she can do along the way. Karen Pryor does teach people to train this way.




> That's interesting because what Wally does is do the same thing that got the click, and if it's standing where he is - well, he'll stand where he is and *I* come to *him* to deliver the treat. In *his* mind, it does not mean "okay, I can stop what I'm doing."


^^^^ Yes, us too.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> This is exactly why the c/t has been synonymous with a release word for me as I've been working with Pumbaa on holding sits. Let us say that she has mastered holding a sit for 45 seconds and the next behavior I want is holding a sit for one minute. *I tell her to sit and she does.*


 Yes. You got the sit. PUT THE CLICKER AWAY. 



> Then we hang around (with her in a sit, of course) for one minute. When the minute is up, _I click and treat because I got the behavior I wanted (sitting for a minute)._


DO NOT Click and Treat the Stay. Use the release word and play or treats. You shaped the sit. You have the sit. You told the dog to sit. The deal with consistent training is _the dog does the stationary behavior until the dog is given another cue, the dog dies (being facetious) or you release the dog._ 

I NEVER shape a stay. I have shaped the sit. The dog sits. I train it with the dog next to me in heel position. The dog KNOWS the sit... and now I ask for a sit.. and I wait a bit after the sit without a word... and at first it might be one second.. then I use my release word with a game of tug. This is why I do NOT use the redundant "Stay." Sit is enough. Sit is sit is sit.... and then I break the sit with a release (or a next command) and try to do if BEFORE the dog breaks the sit himself. 

Leslie Mcdevitt and (I believe) Karen Pryor both go with release words. The release should be its OWN reward. You do not need to click and treat the release as the release word is its OWN command and is its own marker and the play and fun AFTER the release is its own reward.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> I NEVER shape a stay. I have shaped the sit. The dog sits. I train it with the dog next to me in heel position. The dog KNOWS the sit... and now I ask for a sit.. and I wait a bit after the sit without a word... and at first it might be one second.. then I use my release word with a game of tug. This is why I do NOT use the redundant "Stay." Sit is enough. Sit is sit is sit.... and then I break the sit with a release (or a next command) and try to do if BEFORE the dog breaks the sit himself.


This is exactly what I'm doing, except, of course, that I've been clicking before the treat. I'm not sure why it's inappropriate the use the c/t instead of the release word and the treat. It would seem to be the same thing, to me, and it seems congruent with the literature I've read. To be clear, I am not clicking and treating a release word. I'm clicking and treating for a successfully held sit, then the dog is released.


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Are you still clicking when the dog first sits? I think that what Elena is trying to say (and I'm probably wrong, so sorry in advance lol) is that you've already shaped the sit. The dog sits on cue. At some point in your dog's life, you're going to put the clicker away anyway, right? Because you expect her (we're talking about Pumbaa, right?) to sit when you tell her to because you have trained her to do so. You no longer need the reward system. 

At that point, the behavior that you are shaping is the holding pattern of the sit. If she's sitting for a minute, then you are rewarding her for sitting for a minute. I know that the way *I* understand it is to release and then c/t when the dog gets up, essentially c/ting the release word. I might be wrong, but I also know that different things will work for different people and different dogs, depending on a variety of factors.

Elena, I do have one question though: If you don't shape the stay, how do you know when the dog "gets it" as far as holding?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> This is exactly what I'm doing, except, of course, that I've been clicking before the treat. I'm not sure why it's inappropriate the use the c/t instead of the release word and the treat. It would seem to be the same thing, to me, and it seems congruent with the literature I've read. To be clear, I am not clicking and treating a release word. I'm clicking and treating for a successfully held sit, then the dog is released.


If the object is to train a release word, then I drop the clicker at this point. 

The clicker is a tool and while I do not use it anymore myself, I do use a marker and reward so we are still working on the same goal. However, if the clicker is used to mark and reward an active exercise I find the same use to be deleterious for stationary exercises (at least with my dogs). The reason is that the clicker is marking something much less obvious to the dog. 

As I stated.. you have trained the dog to sit with shaping. Great. Now you want duration and if the click always leads to a treat and reward and the end of an exercise I am not sure the dog gets the 'duration' part of the shaping exercise. Mine do not. It may be my dogs or me or something an individual dog gets and another individual dogs does not get. 

One person who had a dog breaking stays actually put a treat under the dog's hip in the down stay and under the dog's butt in the sit stay. She taught the dog that the food was inaccessible until the dog was given the release word. That dog worked so hard concentrating on waiting for the release that he stopped breaking stays altogether. That method worked well on that dog to get him to take an active part in the sit or down cues. Another dog might be unable to have that much self control and such a method might make another dog break the stationary exercise (I immediately picture a Beagle as my dog it might backfire with LOL). 

The reason I use the release word is for other exercises which require duration. Take the heel. I want the dog to (eventually) heel along the long side of the ring. If I am using the clicker the way it is usually taught is to get the dog in heel position and start walking clicking and treating very quickly for proper position. Fact is, when I took a class on this that was clicker based, the instructor said that heel work most often fails because the person does not click and treat fast and frequent enough at first. In that case, I do NOT want the click and treat to signal "exercise over." I want the release word to indicate "exercise over." 

Of course, the first time I am showing the dog about heel work (if I am using this method), I want to get a few steps.. but I am still clicking and treating rapidly with a dog who is learning to heel. If I get two good steps or even one.. I then give my release word and play. 

When I first learned about marker training what was VERY important was to work for very short time periods with play periods in between. The marker indicated we were working on something new and the release word meant.. "I know your brain is tired.. lets PLAY." I believe that is what I got from Karen Pryor's site at that time.

To answer the Everyday Miracles.. I do not c/t the release. The release word is a marker and cue of its own that says, "OK.. enough of that fun.. lets do this other easier non as brain working fun." 

It is sort of like you working a hard calculus problem. You work on it and then get up and play some music or go outside and watch butterflies (or whatever you do that is fun and relaxing and not necessarily food oriented). It gives the calculus part of your brain a break. Then after a few minutes you go back to the calculus....


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

None of the dogs I've ever worked with have seen the click as a release or signal of the end of a behavior. It just means what they are doing is correct. In training stay durations, I click the sit, then click the duration. I extend the time between the click and duration, and even do multiple clicks during the stay randomly. The release word is when I give another cue. 

I can see how new trainers may not be capable of training duration stay with a clicker though.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Everyday Miracles said:


> At that point, the behavior that you are shaping is the holding pattern of the sit. If she's sitting for a minute, then you are rewarding her for sitting for a minute. I know that the way *I* understand it is to release and then c/t when the dog gets up, essentially c/ting the release word. I might be wrong, but I also know that different things will work for different people and different dogs, depending on a variety of factors.


Pretty much how Wally learned what a "release word" was and what to do with it. I can say "let's go" until I'm blue in the face, but he doesn't know it means he can (or actually SHOULD) get up and move with me...it's not doing it's function. But if I say "let's go" just before I move (and I know he'll follow) then I mark and reward it, and then keep doing it so he understands the connection.

Maybe some dogs get that when their human say "okay" that they can stop. Wally didn't. He looked at me like "Okay? What's that?" 

So I had to teach him. Right or wrong - it's what it took and he's got it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RBark said:


> None of the dogs I've ever worked with have seen the click as a release or signal of the end of a behavior. It just means what they are doing is correct. In training stay durations, I click the sit, then click the duration. I extend the time between the click and duration, and even do multiple clicks during the stay randomly. The release word is when I give another cue.
> 
> *I can see how new trainers may not be capable of training duration stay with a clicker though.*


Had to get that jab in eh? 

I am done.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Had to get that jab in eh?
> 
> I am done.


Ummmmmm, it was a general statement. A lot of the people I teach have a hard time with it.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

FilleBelle said:


> I thought the c/t signalled the END of the exercise, though. So, I've got Pumbaa in a sit and I'm walking around her. I click and treat to indicate she has successfully completed the exercise and, as a result, she gets up and wanders away. I thought that was how it was supposed to work, but then I can't click and treat the release word because the click has alreadly released her.
> 
> What does it look like when you c/t the stay and then c/t the release word?


The click signals that a certain behavior is going to be rewarded. In general it also ends the behavior, though I know people who have trained a dog that it does not. If i am teaching the action of sit, I'm going to click quicky, and toss the treat to encourage the dog to break so he can sit again. If I am working on the three Ds (duration, distance, distraction), I'm not going to get upset if my dog breaks upon hearing a click (after all he was doing what I wanted when I clicked him) but I will probably deliver the treat in a way where he needs to sit to obtain it. I don't specifically click a release. What I DO do is add any new information (cue, marker, release word) immediately before the information the dog knows. Then I can fade out the old cue/marker/release.



Elana55 said:


> Yes. You got the sit. PUT THE CLICKER AWAY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There's considerable difference in opinion about clicking and treating the stay. Some people do it, others do not. My thought is that it is still useful information, and the dogs that get that information tell me it is useful, since they "get it" very quickly. For the life of me, I'm not sure how you COULD shape "stay". It is or it isn't. You can certainly increase duration, distance or distraction, but the act of staying is one of those "dead dog" behaviors. (a dead dog could do it) and so, not really shape-able.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> My thought is that it is still useful information, and the dogs that get that information tell me it is useful, since they "get it" very quickly.


Yep. I agree completely.



Pawzk9 said:


> For the life of me, I'm not sure how you COULD shape "stay". It is or it isn't. You can certainly increase duration, distance or distraction, but the act of staying is one of those "dead dog" behaviors. (a dead dog could do it) and so, not really shape-able.




Yeah, I was trying to figure that out too, thinking "hmm...isn't that just a one-step behavior?" and was trying to see if I was missing something.

About the only thing I could think of is how fast he comes to a stop. Like maybe at first, you cue "stay" and the dog takes 3 steps before stopping. You might take that and then start rewarding only two steps before stopping, then one step, then an immediate freeze.

That's as close as I can come to figure out shaping a "stay" and that's just if the dog is in motion. Not a stationary dog you want to remain stationary.

LOL a dead dog could do it. I love it.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Everyday Miracles said:


> Are you still clicking when the dog first sits?


Nope. I've actually explained a couple of times what I'm doing, which is exactly what Elana is doing EXCEPT that her marker and reward are a release word and play while my marker and reward are a click and treat.

Let us say that she has demonstrated that she can hold a sit for 45 seconds. The next behavior I want her to demonstrate is holding a sit for 1 minute. Procedure:
1) I tell the dog to sit.
2) She sits.
3) We hang around (with her sitting, of course) for a minute.
4) At the end of the minute, I click and treat to signal that she has successfully completed my wanted behavior.
5) We either do it again or we move on to something else.



Elana55 said:


> The clicker is a tool and while I do not use it anymore myself, I do use a marker and reward so we are still working on the same goal. However, if the clicker is used to mark and reward an active exercise I find the same use to be deleterious for stationary exercises (at least with my dogs). The reason is that the clicker is marking something much less obvious to the dog.


I totally get this. You've provided me with a very logical reason to start using the release word right now. I was sort of dancing around this point when I said before that use of the clicker for holding a position is rather tricky because usually the click marks a particular movement, but in the case of a hold, it marks a non-movement. I can see how it would be confusing to the dog (it is clearly confusing to all of us who are participating in this thread, lol), although it does not seem to confuse my _particular _dog.



Elana55 said:


> To answer the Everyday Miracles.. I do not c/t the release. The release word is a marker and cue of its own that says, "OK.. enough of that fun.. lets do this other easier non as brain working fun."


I don't c/t the release, either, because I agree that the freedom to move about again is its own reward. Also, if I give my release word and the dog continues to hold a sit, I don't really care, so the release word doesn't seem worth specific training. For me, it's basically an indication that the dog can relax...if the dog doesn't WANT to relax, that's okay with me. I don't really see a reason to COMMAND a release, you know?

Pumbaa is definitely understanding the process because she will hold a sit, even as I'm moving about her. She won't hold it for more than a minute, mind you, but we literally just started working on it this past weekend, so I assume we'll be able to build duration as we continue. I know that she also understands my release word, because I use it when I am NOT equipped with the clicker. For example, when she gets her bedtime snack, I ask her to sit and hold it while I put the bowl down. When I've seen enough of her sitting, I say "Okay" and she is free to eat. I will often ask her to hold a sit at the door, too, so that Alvin can get through without her shoving him around. She will sit politely on the porch until he is inside and I release her with the "okay." Again, it's all less than a minute, but I can see that she understands both the concept of holding the sit and the concept of the release word. I wil most likely stick with clicking and treating the stay, simply because I think she gets it.



KBLover said:


> That's as close as I can come to figure out shaping a "stay" and that's just if the dog is in motion. Not a stationary dog you want to remain stationary.


Isn't slowly increasing the duration of the stay sort of a shaping process? You capture the one second stay, then the five second, then the fifteen second, etc in an effort to get all the way to infinity?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> Isn't slowly increasing the duration of the stay sort of a shaping process? You capture the one second stay, then the five second, then the fifteen second, etc in an effort to get all the way to infinity?


It is, yes. Clicker duration shaping is how I trained Priscilla to have the 2 hour stay she had. (unneccessary for most dogs, of course, but I was following the SD training guideline which requires a significant more)


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## Everyday Miracles (Nov 14, 2010)

Gosh I'm sorry. I have had the most exhausting past couple of days and while I'm reading everything, I don't think that I'm comprehending everything that I read. Not so great for a college student, and it's worse because I have trouble explaining simple concepts, so when I don't understand what I'm reading, I'm a total mess. LOL

What you're doing makes a lot of sense now that you've outlined it in simple steps. I guess I just needed the breakdown. That makes sense that the c/t is the release under those circumstances!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

FilleBelle said:


> Isn't slowly increasing the duration of the stay sort of a shaping process? You capture the one second stay, then the five second, then the fifteen second, etc in an effort to get all the way to infinity?


No. that's more like 300 peck. Similar but not the same. In order for it to be shaping the dog would be offering preliminary partial pieces of a behavior that you can build into the actual behavior that you are looking for. When you are building duration/distance/distraction you are working with the behavior already in place. You are just changing the situations surrounding that behavior. Asking for "more" behavior, not a more complete behavior.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Honestly, I have never heard that. The behavior being asked for with stay, is stay. The behavior offered with stay is the duration of the stay.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RBark said:


> Honestly, I have never heard that. The behavior being asked for with stay, is stay. The behavior offered with stay is the duration of the stay.


<g> dead dogs are great at that.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> <g> dead dogs are great at that.


I never said it's a complicated behavior.


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## PiperPuppy (Nov 28, 2010)

KBLover said:


> Pretty much how Wally learned what a "release word" was and what to do with it. I can say "let's go" until I'm blue in the face, but he doesn't know it means he can (or actually SHOULD) get up and move with me...it's not doing it's function. But if I say "let's go" just before I move (and I know he'll follow) then I mark and reward it, and then keep doing it so he understands the connection.
> 
> Maybe some dogs get that when their human say "okay" that they can stop. Wally didn't. He looked at me like "Okay? What's that?"
> 
> So I had to teach him. Right or wrong - it's what it took and he's got it.


Wally and Piper have so much in common! LOL. I had to teach Piper what the heck I meant by All Done, just like you did with Wally. Too funny. I could just see the confusion on Piper's face the first few times I said All Done. Silly puppy.


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