# Teaching "fetch" - returning the ball



## jwilder (Aug 22, 2008)

We're in the process of teaching our ACD to fetch. Obviously, she isn't naturally a retriever like a lab or even a german shepard, so she doesn't quite get it yet. We've done clicker training to get her chasing and apprehending the ball, which she does very well, but we're stuck on how to get her to bring the ball back. She'll chase and grab it, and when we click, she drops the ball and comes running for her treat. 

We've tried delaying the click until she turns and walks towards us with the ball to cue her that we want her to return the ball, but she'll still drop the ball and come for a treat when she hears the click, instead of bringing the ball all the way back. If we call her back, instead of clicking, she does the same thing - drops the ball and comes running for her reward.

Any suggestions on how to teach the "return" part of 'fetch'? Thanks!


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## rogueslg71 (Dec 6, 2007)

maybe you can try to use a flexilead to tug her in when she grabs the ball so she doesnt have time to think and drop it. also dont show the treat till she gets all the way back so that she doesnt drop the ball thinking about the treat?


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

Barclay doesn't get the treat until I have the ball in hand, even if that means I have to walkover and get it myself. He's getting much better about bringing the ball back so he can get the treat faster. If he forgets and leaves the ball, when I start walking towards it sometimes he'll run back an get it and bring it to me. He has gotten pretty good about bringing the ball back now.

I don't use the clicker with fetch, I think I wasn't using it right and it was confusing him. I think to do it correctly you'd have to do a 'backward chain' of events or something, which I don't know how to do yet.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Have you taught "take-it"? How far are you throwing the ball out? Does your dog enjoy playing tug?


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## jwilder (Aug 22, 2008)

Prophet - Lucy knows "get it", which is her cue to go grab her ball, toy frog, tug rope, or whatever we tell her to get, but she won't bring stuff back to us. She just runs over to it, grabs it, and then either walks a few steps and drops it, or looks at us like "ok, what now?" We're trying to get to the "bring it back now" phase.

She does enjoy playing tug, but gently - if we pull to hard she'll let go. (A good thing that we don't want to un-teach her.) She really enjoys chasing her frog and ripping its head off, when she can't chase the real thing.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Run away from dog just for kicks, throw ball and when she picks it up you could try running away.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I would shape this through backchaining. Start by click/treat touching the ball while it's on the floor near you and the dog, then click/treat mouthing the ball, then picking up the ball. Up the criteria further by rolling the ball a short distance away and starting over, then adding carrying the ball the short distance between you and where the ball is. It shouldn't be long before you can toss the ball out and the dog will pick it up and bring it back for a click/treat. When your dog is reliably bringing the ball back to you, you can add the verbal cue Fetch.


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## Tarekith (Mar 30, 2008)

I can only get my lab to bring his ball halfway back, don't feel too bad


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

> Prophet - Lucy knows "get it", which is her cue to go grab her ball, toy frog, tug rope, or whatever we tell her to get, but she won't bring stuff back to us. She just runs over to it, grabs it, and then either walks a few steps and drops it, or looks at us like "ok, what now?" We're trying to get to the "bring it back now" phase.
> 
> She does enjoy playing tug, but gently - if we pull to hard she'll let go. (A good thing that we don't want to un-teach her.) She really enjoys chasing her frog and ripping its head off, when she can't chase the real thing.


Yall are going to hate me but…I also had the same problem with Elsa stopping short of delivering the toy. I thought that this was just the way some dogs were until one day I stuck my hand out for her to bring the toy to me. Surprisingly she grabbed the toy, ran over to me, and plopped it right in my hand. I was shocked and felt really dumb. So you may want to try that first and who knows, maybe your dog is playing you like Elsa was me. 

Now, I never formally taught Elsa this, it just happened. However, once I looked back on things this is what I did do well, which leads me to believe I inadvertently taught her how to complete the retrieve. 

1) I never give her a new toy without coveting it for a few days. I like to peak her excitement about the toy, and I call it by name often. You’d be amazed at how quickly a dog can learn a new toy by name just be doing this. 

2) I play the “game”. For us the “game” is tug, tug, tug, “drop it”, (do something for me, usually sit), “take it”, tug, tug, tug and repeat the cycle. I also proof “leave it” by teasing the toy after “drop it”. This to me has been very important for our retrieve because it teaches the dog that the toy is part of the “game.” Without the toy and me the game can’t be played. I also reinforce this fact by periodically letting go of the tug toy when we’re tugging. Elsa tends to run away, and *I do* give chase…that’s part of the fun in the game. But not for long and I quickly run in the other direction for her to give chase back. All this to me builds an infatuation with the toy and me which are fundamentally important to retrieve IMO.

3) (Something I didn’t do, but would now with a new dog) is cue “drop it” at incremental distances from your hand. At first when you have a hold of the toy, then when you have your hand under the dog’s chin, but not grabbing the toy, and then a few inches away. So on and so forth, as long as the dog is actively reaching to put the toy in your hand.

How hard the dog tugs is not a concern, so long as both of you are playing by the rules of tug. And those rules are simple…teeth touch skin and the game is over. You could control the vigor of your dog’s play, and I would recommend this with strong dogs, but as long as the dog heeds “drop it” and teeth don’t touch skin, the dog is demonstrating self control. 

For a game like retrieve I’ve found huge benefit in using the dog’s drive with the "game", to build up the sequence and reinforce the weaker parts of the behavior.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Run away from dog just for kicks, throw ball and when she picks it up you could try running away.


I would do the same and have another ball in my hand so when she comes after you turn take her ball and throw the other.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Jen D said:


> and have another ball in my hand so when she comes after you turn take her ball and throw the other.


The problem I've run into here though is that the dog will anticipate the new ball being thrown, and will focus on the new ball more than me. As a result the dog will drop the old ball wherever, usually short of where I'm at. IMO, retrieve should be played with one toy, and I want to teach the dog that this one toy is necessary for us to play the game, but more importantly, my cues are the game, not the toy.


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## mrodgers (Sep 14, 2008)

Tarekith said:


> I can only get my lab to bring his ball halfway back, don't feel too bad


My lab brings her ball twice as far as she needs to. She will gladly chase it and get it, then run full tilt around me and to the other side of the kid's swimming pool and look at me with a "ha ha, look what I have!" look on her face.

She is starting to bring it back, but drops it about 2 feet away. Sometimes it rolls the rest of the way and sometimes it drops and stays 2 feet away, depending on how high the grass is.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

jwilder said:


> We've tried delaying the click until she turns and walks towards us with the ball to cue her that we want her to return the ball, but she'll still drop the ball and come for a treat when she hears the click, instead of bringing the ball all the way back. If we call her back, instead of clicking, she does the same thing - drops the ball and comes running for her reward.


It's really not a problem that she's dropping it when you click...by clicking you are saying she just performed the behavior you are looking for, so whatever she does after that is irrelevant insofar as earning a reward. You just need to keep raising your criteria...once she's reliably turning toward you with the ball in mouth, start only clicking when she take a step toward you as well...then two...when she's five feet out...three feet out...when she drops it at your feet (at that point I tend to click, pick it up, then treat so I have the ball in hand when they get the food and they learn that me taking the toy = treat *and* continuation of the game). 

From there you can raise it as high as you want...settle for dropping it nearby...on your foot...in your hand...placing the ball in a bait bag hanging from your belt...turn around three times then hand you the ball...

It sounds like you are on the right track and just need to keep upping the ante...just make sure your criteria increases aren't so high that your dog gets frustated and/or loses interest. I taught both my "non-retriever" dogs to retrieve using this method.

If she drops it before you have a chance to click, do nothing. Let her think about it...by this time she should have a strong association with the ball as the key to positive reinforcement, so in all likelihood she will return to the ball and try again. If not, and waiting any longer risks her disengaging from the game, just send her back out as if you just threw the ball, or quietly walk over without giving her any sort of reward (food, social, etc.), then restart the game when you have the ball.

Good luck.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Jen D said:


> I would do the same and have another ball in my hand so when she comes after you turn take her ball and throw the other.


THat's how I taught my dog to return the ball. At first, she would drop the ball thinking I would throw the new ball but I would get up and pick up the ball she dropped before throwing the new ball. So she learned that to get the ball thrown, she had to bring the ball back. When she brought the ball back, I threw the new ball. After a few times, she got it and we only had to use one ball.


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## ScoobyDoo (Oct 31, 2008)

My dear scoob runs behind the ball when I throw it. He holds the ball and when I say bring the ball, he runs away with the ball. I then run behind him to fetch the ball  Don't know where I go wrong. Sometimes I feel he's my boss and I work for him for a treat.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

ScoobyDoo said:


> My dear scoob runs behind the ball when I throw it. He holds the ball and when I say bring the ball, he runs away with the ball. I then run behind him to fetch the ball  Don't know where I go wrong. Sometimes I feel he's my boss and I work for him for a treat.


You just have a role reversal. You never chase a dog, He must chase you if there is any chasing to be done.


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