# Puppy growling when woken and moved.



## Calah (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi, I have a 13 week old choc Lab/?? puppy. He is a very sweet boy...and absolutely loves people. He will snarl at other dogs, but only if they constantly badger him or snarl first, otherwise he seems happy enough to be the submissive one.

He is afraid of storms, loud noises, vacuums, etc. He has tons of chew toys, but I know he needs more play time simply because we are in a small apartment. He seems to be happy enough just to sit on my lap and chew on something most of the time. If we are not in direct contact with him he will start grabbing onto our legs with his legs and teeth and shake his head (we are working on it.) He is not food or toy aggressive what-so-ever.

I got him at 5 -6 weeks. He knows how to sit, shake, lay, roll over, and leave it. We are having a little trouble with stay and come. He is in that stubborn stage where if he doesn't want to or knows he's going to be crated he will bark at me and take off in a different direction and then turn and bark at me again, like he's sassing me. 

Also, I live with my boyfriend but I am his human, the one he listens to more and he shows more affection to, though he seems to adore my boyfriend as well. 

Anyway, enough back story! I just wanted you to see where he was in his training and development. 

If I put him in his crate during the day then he will just lay down and wait for me to let him out again. At night, he will whine for a little while but then eventually settle down. Usually, my boyfriend gets up a few hours before me and will take him out and then the pup will come get back into the bed and snuggle on my shoulder until I get up. 

This has been all fine and dandy up until roughly two weeks ago. The first incident, he was up on the bed with my boyfriend while I was in the bathroom. When my boyfriend went to pick him up, puppy went for his hand. Not just a simple growl, but he turned his head towards my boyfriend's hand as if to bite. He stopped before getting there, though my boyfriend also pulled his hand away. Then, I went to touch him and he went to bite me as well. It was not a rough bite, he simply mouthed my hand as if he wanted me to leave him alone but didn't want to hurt me. He had gotten shots and had gotten very sore from them that day, you couldn't really touch him without him yelping in pain. I assumed it was a pain response and picked him up as gently as I could and put him in the crate. He went into the crate with no fuss though he didn't enjoy me handling him. 

The second incident was a few nights ago, he had gotten up on the couch and again..my boyfriend went to wake him up to put him in his crate and got the exact same reaction as last time. I, again, went up and he responded the same way to me. Again, this time he had had some diarrhea and didn't seem to want me near his stomach (we changed foods too quickly.) (I work at a vet's so yes, he gets frequent medical attention. I am a paranoid mommy.) 

He _should_ be used to being picked up because we live on the third floor and for the first few weeks he couldn't get up them by himself. It seems to only be when he is sleeping.

Finally, today he ran in circles around the apartment growling. Under the table, over the chair, around the couch...growling and he would jump for your hand when he got closer and snarl. My boyfriend pinned him (we use it as a last resort) and when he was done, the puppy got up in his lap and kissed him all over and he was fine the rest of the day. Now, he is sleeping on the couch and I called his name..he looked at me..and when I reached out my hand to touch him he growled but didn't snap. I've been trying to keep him off the couch as much as possible just in case it is territorial. *Edit: After I typed this up, I sat beside him on the couch and pet him and he seemed fine. I pulled him up onto my lap and he didn't make a single peep. Then, I slowly lifted him and put him on the floor and he walked into his crate and laid down all without a growl or a bite.*

Sorry for the wall of text, I wanted to be as accurate as I could. Any advice/help???


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## Calah (Apr 27, 2013)

Sorry this post is so long!


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

That's okay, background is helpful. 

My first bit of advise is about socialization. It sounds like this dog has a bit of a shy/timid nature, and you want a dog that is as comfortable with new experiences as possible. I'd defiantly work on creating experiences he feels comfortable with. Here is a great article on socialization, and it's really important to create a dog with a solid temperament.

http://caninesinaction.com/2012/08/when-you-should-not-socialize-your-dog-part-1/

If you work at a vet's office you may be aware that a puppy leaving it's mother at 5 weeks is developmentally too early. There are important lessons about frustration tolerance and bite inhibition and such that he will have missed out on and can't be duplicated by a human, we can only do our best but we are not a dog so we can't communicate those lessons as effectively and efficiently. Just making sure you're aware.

One big reason you may be having trouble with recall is that you are calling the puppy for things he doesn't like, so why would he come to you? It's recommended that until the command is SOLID (meaning he's coming 90% of the time over a LONG period of time) never to call a dog for something unpleasant, because you're doing what's called "poisoning your cue." Always make recall SUPER rewarding and AWESOME because it's a life saving command, you don't want your dog to "think about it."

With the biting not in play, you want to avoid the puppy being put a position to bite you in the first place where you have to pull your hand way, because if you pull your hand away (which is the right and instinctive thing to do) you are teaching the puppy biting works if he want space. Then you get what is called "learned aggression." You don't want that. The intensity of a dog's bite is not accidental, the pup was giving a warning, if he'd wanted to hurt you BF he'd be bleeding. 

Dogs often won't want to be picked up for a variety of reasons like sleeping, playing, whatever. You have to make your touch and handling associated with AWESOME things not being bothered when the dog doesn't want to be bothered. And try to make it the dog's choice to come to you first, instead of (in the dog's mind) forcing the interaction. Get the dog to come with a treat or a toy, and give really yummy and many treats every time you handle the dog. Wake the dog up by waving a treat under it's nose and picked it up while it's nibbling the treat, and trust me, he'll come not to mind so much anymore.

You guys really need to stop the pinning, which is an alpha roll. I can't tell you how many times someone posts saying their pup is doing the same thing yours is and guess what, they are doing some version of pinning the dog. The only thing pinning accomplishes is making a dog not trust you. Dogs don't actually pin other dogs indefinitely, one dog submissively _rolls over themselves-not forced down_ and offers other appeasement gestures and the dominant dogs lets them up. Appeasement gestures are not just laying there not moving, the are licking, pawing, gestures that when people alpha roll their dogs people ignore because they expect stillness as being "total submission." What this says to your dog is "I'm offering gestures to show my submission, and that I mean no harm and this being is still restraining me!" To a dog, that's kind of crazy and unpredictable, an act of aggression. This is why dogs begin to be uncomfortable if people handle them, reach for them, or try and restrain them, or if they expect a person to do any of these things. They become uncertain, because sometimes people reach for them and it's good, but sometimes it's scary and confusing. Rolling and pinning undermines trust. I STRONGLY suggest you find ways to make it worth your pup's while to comply with you, instead of pinning or handling, and I almost GUARANTEE the growling at you will stop.

Now I wrote alot too.


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## Calah (Apr 27, 2013)

He is a bit of a weirdo. He is timid when it comes to loud noises otherwise he charges in on a situation. You know how a lot of times you can chase your puppy around during play or be chased, but normally if you get down like you are going to chase them they will start jumping around, back up, or run away and come back and run away again...etc. If you do that to my dog, he either just stands there and looks at you or runs towards you, he has never run away.

It isn't that he is timid so much, but that he doesn't like loud noises that he can't SEE. Like..thunderstorms, loud cars, etc. If he can look and see where the noise is coming from..he just sits down and watches it. Things like thunderstorms - he can't ever figure out where it is coming from, or geese behind a building..as soon as he saw them he was fine and didn't care much more about them. If he can't find it, he crawls into my lap and waits until it is over. Otherwise, he barrels head first into situations. When we go to new places he doesn't hide behind me or refuse to walk..he just goes but observes everything as he does. So far, nothing else has bothered him..not baths, shots, car rides, etc.

Yes, I understand that he was too early to leave his mother when I got him. It was a ...very odd and complicated situation. I would have preferred for him to stay with his mother for a little longer, but there really wasn't any way around it. I am actually his 4th owner. (HOW does a dog get 4 owners by the time they are 6 weeks old???
:doh Many people took him for overnight trials before deciding he was too much to handle (he really is quite the hellion.) When I first saw him, he was boarding in the kennel, by himself, because my coworker decided she couldn't handle him and a newborn baby at the same time. The litter ended up coming in and boarding a few days later, without the mother, because the owner just got too overwhelmed (it was a litter of 8) and couldn't handle all of them and didn't want to keep them any more. SHE ended up being a complete psycho and the situation got way more complicated than what I've described , but I will leave that detail out. Just know, it was a dangerous situation and I am happy I took him as early as I did.


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## Calah (Apr 27, 2013)

Also, yes I hate pinning too. We've only pinned him about twice...most of the time we can find other ways to resolve the situation. We are trying to make sure we never have to do it.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

Lots of dogs of course don't like thunderstorms. But even for confident, outgoing dogs, which yours may be, proper socialization is an important part of having a puppy, since you were asking for advise. You work at a vet, but Ive volunteered at shelters and many dogs are there because of behavioral problems caused by lack of socialization. Always important to mentioned when someone is asking about a pups development. I hope you have a plan for socialization. 

I'm just trying to understand, under what circumstances do you feel like it's necessary, as a last resort, to alpha roll the puppy? I am wondering because I can't think of any circumstances where its necessary so I am wondering if may be I could suggest an alternative? Your puppy is developing handling problems and that is clear to you I think, and I KNOW the rolling is contributing to that. I've seen it many times. The problem is not going to get better if you're not creating a positive association at this point with handling and it could get worse. I adopted two full grown great danes. Can you imagine me trying to Alpha roll them (I'm 5 foot and 110 lbs)? It's kind of a funny image. Alpha rolling is not only unnecessary at any time (I got my danes to be well trained and well behaved with behavioral issues never having alpha rolled them at all)and it can be harmful. 

Have you posted a pic of your puppy on the forum yet? We would love to see the pup! Lots of lab fans on here.


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## Calah (Apr 27, 2013)

My avatar and two on my profile. I shall warn you...when I put him in the car..I either crate him or I have a harness attached to the seatbelt...in the picture we were parked and waiting on my boyfriend to come outside so I let him explore and he ended up in an odd place that makes it look extremely unsafe for me to be driving. 

My boyfriend pinned him once when I wasn't home and my dad pinned him once when he was at their house overnight. I've asked them both to not pin the dog again and it hasn't happened since.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

Cute pup!

Hmmm......well, just going by things you said such as "My boyfriend pinned him (we use it as a last resort) ......" and such as far as the alpha rolling goes. If you don't want it done (and it is your dog) then hopefully they will respect that.


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## Calah (Apr 27, 2013)

First time owning just one dog at a time. It is amazing how much easier it is to train a dog when you already have an adult dog in the house. 

I said "we use it as a last resort" because we pinned him and then read that pinning was bad and that was when we decided to stop doing it and have been looking for other ways. Much of the literature out there about dog training say complete opposites. Do pin. Don't pin. Rough house. Don't rough house. I do not like pinning or hitting or anything, he was pinned after we watched a Youtube video of a veterinarian saying to pin a dog, but it just seemed to stress him out and make it worse. So, we looked up more about pinning and read a lot of opposing views but also found ways to avoid pinning by using training techniques and commands and things like that. I even had people telling me that if my dog bit me, to bite them back!! So, I've just been trying to find things that seem to work for my individual dog. That was another reason I came here, to see what dog veterans had to say on the matter.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

That is the wonderful thing about forums, you can get people's personal experiences about what works and what doesn't work. As someone who tried a variety of methods, positive reinforcement works best, I am a firm believer, and I could give you a million reasons why, but in short IME using things that are unpleasant to the dog generally can make them shut down and lose trust in you, it is WAY more motivating to get rewarded for the right things than corrected for the wrong things, so I try to get creative and find ways to set up the dogs to get rewarded for what I want, instead of corrected for what I don't want, which also doesn't teach them what _to do_ instead of what not to do.

Tons of long time dog owners on here, professional trainers, people with dogs in sports activities and therapy dogs, a lot of knowledge on this forum for sure! I learn new ideas all the time.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Vets know how to cure disease. Except for a few specialists, the average Vet is not a good source for training expertise.

You can train Bite Inhibition, and other behaviors without touching the dog, but it takes preparation and anticipation. Your dog will adapt to your lifestyle and you can teach him anything you want ... but you have to teach him the rules, first.
1. Don't punish by hitting or pinning, b/c it's very difficult to time the punishment so that the pup understands. Instead, consider withdrawing attention ... very powerful when done correctly ... more about that in a moment.
2. After teaching Bite Inhibition, you can teach your dog to Tug, but you'll also want to teach Sit, Drop It, and no grabbing. When you have these rules, it won't matter if you win or if the dog wins ... the point is the interaction. When my dog wins, he'll either go chew the toy (that's OK) or he'll poke me to play some more. If he runs away, I withdraw attention and the game stops.
3. You can do the same type of rules with rough housing. My dog is allowed to growl, snarl, bark, and jump ... but since teeth aren't allowed to touch skin, he'll body block me, and push me with a closed mouth. If my timing is off, I may hit him in the side of the mouth... like slamming my hand into a brick wall... but that was my fault.

Bite Inhibition: Read the Sticky: The Bite Stops Here in the new owner section.

The Bite Stops Here takes about 3 days to kick in, even then you only get a reduction of bloodletting, slowly resulting in bloodfree nipping, leading to mouthing, etc. Depending on the reaction of the pup, you don't have to use a Yelp!, you can say Ouch!!!, or Oops, where you want a marking word, to indicate when you are withdrawing attention.
Read this tweak and note the 3 days and the apology..... Instead of the Yelp, you can say Ouch! or Oops! Also, it seems to be more effective if you can leave him alone in a timeout ("abandoning him"), rather than putting him into a timeout in the crate. It seems to make the act of withdrawing attention more blatant.

Some Tweaks to Bite Inhibition (to get him to stop biting when he wants to play or otherwise):
1. When the pup bites, then yelp. It should sound about like what the pup does when you step on its paw... don't step on his paw for a sample . When you yelp, the pup should startle briefly and stop nipping. (Look for the startle) Praise and pet. He'll bite.
2. When he bites the second time, Yelp. When he stops, praise and pet. He'll nip again, although it may be a little gentler. ...
3. When he bites a third time, Yelp (see a pattern?). But this time, turn your back for 15 - 30 secs. If he comes around and play bows or barks, then that is an apology. This is important. Accept it, praise and pet... and cringe in expectation of the next nip...
4. When he bites the 4th time, Yelp, then leave the area, placing him in a 2 min. time-out. It is better if you can leave, rather than moving him. Then, return and interact. (He's still hungry...)
5. When he nips the fifth time, yelp, and leave the area, stopping interaction for now.

You can modify the number of steps, but not what you do... for example, you can leave in a huff , after the second nip or even the first, but you always have to provide a vocal marker, to give him something to react to. I still use a light yelp with my 11 yo when he lets teeth touch skin as I give him a treat. No pressure or harm, but I want him to appear very safe to everyone.

Pups need to sleep over night in order to learn their lessons. So, keep doing this for 3 days. By the third day, you should notice signficant Bite Inhibition. He may still nip, but it will be softer and he won't draw blood. And, he should be less aggressive, especially, if you notice the apology. Keep up the training and make sure that everyone yelps.... Very powerful method.

If you learn the technique, then you can apply the "yelp" to other circumstances, also. I believe that "yelp" is "Please don't do that, I don't like it." in dog communication. I currently use the yelp when my dog plays tug, then runs with the toy, when he fetches and keeps it out of reach or when he takes a treat too quickly....

Dogs will grab for tug toy and take along some skin. With good Bite Inhibition, as well as withdrawing attention, you can teach most dogs to slow down grabbing, while still being able to rip your arm out of the socket by pulling. My dog is polite and will return my arm to me, so that we can continue playing.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Dunno.. 
I think you shouldn't let the puppy get to the point that it thinks that the bedroom is its "den" too and may have to take your spot to sleep there....

Roman is never allowed to free roam into my bedroom.
Door is always shut... and in order for him to get in, he sits and look at me... then I'll let him in.
Roman's crate is in the TV room and he sleeps there overnight till about 6-7 months till he turned nocturnal.

Then he wants to sleep outside... we have an enclosed porch with a deck attached. Actually a huge area.... most 3-4 times my last deck size.
Roman will sleep on the TV room couch in the afternoon when weather gets a bit warm.

Can't tell you much but my breed forum (great Pyrenees) actually encourage bedrooms and most couch to be off limits till the dog seek permission from you the owner. But others may not believe in practicing that here... so different styles.

With Roman... he is very polite... ask all the time for permission and never once did he try to bite me if I need him to move.
He knows its my space..
And well mannered enough to ask.. not take.


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## Calah (Apr 27, 2013)

We stopped letting him on the bed after the first bite, but he was still allowed on the couch. I've found that if I get up off the couch and leave he'll sit up and watch me as if wondering why I am leaving. After that I come back to the couch and then pick him up and put him in his crate without any grumbling or biting. 

We try and keep the bedroom door closed when we can since it is where all the electronics are and we don't want him chewing on those, plus it is the location of our laundry and he really enjoys chewing my underwear...but every once in a while it gets forgotten. We also keep the bathroom door closed...which is all two doors in our one bedroom apartment...lol.


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## Tylerthegiant (Apr 5, 2013)

Safety first, that's what I always say! Many people don't appreciate how easily a puppy can get hurt chewing things. Can't say I miss puppy days LOL, I have not seen a puppy cute enough to change my mind lately. But your guy is very cute, and desperately needed a home sounds like.


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