# Collar vs Harness? Best choice for walking a puppy?



## Aussie27

I was originally planning on just a collar for my eventually-to-be (hopefully by the coming summer) Aussie puppy, but I've read that a harness is way better. It says that collars can damage their vocal chords, especially with all the pulling, seeing as they're still getting trained to walk on a leash?

Anyways, I was wondering what your thoughts were? I was on PetSmart.com, basically putting stuff I'd need in a cart to get an idea of how much the accessories will cost, and I found a Gentle Leader? I wasn't sure about the puppy sizes, but I also found a puppy harness that wasn't one, but it was still in the same format. (more on the chest and not the neck)

When would it be okay to switch to a collar? (planning on buying a high quality leather collar and leash when she's all leash trained and I don't have to worry about chewed leashes, I can remember Moses going through three leashes in only a few months... he would chew right through them xD)


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## DJEtzel

I train pups with collars on off leash but they wear harnesses outside on leash, preferrably this style- http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3519705 with the O ring in the front. 

I clip the leash here for dogs that pull or dart, so that when I stop because their lead gets tight, they go spinning around in a circle instead of whipping around at their neck, doing no harm to them, but making them realize that they can't do that. For pups up to 6 months, or until they can walk successfully on a loose lead, I use the harness. If they prove they can, they get switched to their buckle collar from inside. Small dogs always get harnessed. 

I wouldn't recommend the gentle leader until you've tried loose leash walking training and haven't succeeded. It may prove to be an uneeded accessory otherwise or become a crutch. Stick to the harness and collar. 

Btw; I'd suggest keeping the collar on the dog while you're walking with the harness just to get them used to the idea that they have a collar on during these walks and the collar = loose leash walking too. Likewise, when weaning the harness, I'd leave it on even if you're clipped to the collar for a while.


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## Superchuck500

We walk our new puppy with a harness and try to keep it on her unless she's going in the crate. She doesn't bite too much at it except when we're putting it on.

But she scratches at it a LOT. It interferes with walking because she frequently (sometimes every 30 or 45 seconds) has to stop and try to scratch at it with her back paws.

Is this common, just her getting used to it? Or should we change what we're doing?

Thanks!


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## Elana55

A harness has two purposes:
1.) pulling
2.) tracking.

I never have owned or used a harness. I rather train the dog and you cannot train a dog in a harness.


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## lil_fuzzy

I intend to start my new puppy on silky leash training as soon as I get him. He won't need to be walked for a while anyway, because puppies can exercise while playing, so I will have some time to teach him how to walk on a lead before ever actually taking him for a walk.

So how about that? Maybe that's an option for you.

I also read somewhere that puppies should not be walked in a harness because it puts pressure on their sternum when they pull, and because their bones are still soft it can cause damage. Dunno if that is true or not.

And you can train a dog in a harness, mine is walked on a harness and I train her while walking her. I don't see what a collar or a harness has to do with training, unless you use pulling and jerking on the lead while training. With the harness and the long rope lead, my dog is free to behave as if she is off leash, and so every walk is practising her off leash behaviour. Which became apparent while she was off leash at the dog park the other day, and she behaved just as well as if she was wearing the harness and rope lead.


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## Jacksons Mom

I only use a harness as my breed is prone to collapsed trachea, plus Jackson has managed to escape out of collars twice now and they are fitted correctly; he's just got an odd shaped neck/head. So I feel safer with a harness, especially since I use a tie-out at my house (while I'm watching him of course) and I don't want him to see something, run to the other end, and pop his neck. He walks perfectly on a Puppia harness and does not pull, and I trained him with the EZ Walk harness originally. I also dogsit for a Rottweiler who uses a harness and he only pulls on the collar, but not the harness.


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## Elana55

If you use a properly adjusted martingale collar and couple it with training (this includes Pos. Reinf. training) you will not get pulling and you will not get a dog that can escape the collar by pulling his head out. 

A dog on leash is a two way communication. In training dogs and people with their dogs, the rule is no harnesses. IF control is needed, a harness is much much more difficult to work a two way communication on. The harnes DOES distribute weight all around the dog when the dog pulls and can, IME, encourage a dog TO pull (unless you get a Gentle Leader Harness and now you dog is encouraged to sit all the time which is not training anything either). 

A collar allows for more precise communication, be it a dog self correcting as he goes to the end of the leash while you stand still or by your changing direction and clicking and treating him as he shows up at your side again. If the dog lags in a harness you are pulling the dog from around the middle (which actully interferes physically with the nerves that help a dog to walk and stand). If the dog goes ahead of you and pulls, the harness actually makes pulling more comfortabale for the dog. 

A harness is just.. a mess.. when it comes to communication. That is my experience.


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## DJEtzel

Elana55 said:


> If you use a properly adjusted martingale collar and couple it with training (this includes Pos. Reinf. training) you will not get pulling and you will not get a dog that can escape the collar by pulling his head out.
> 
> A dog on leash is a two way communication. In training dogs and people with their dogs, the rule is no harnesses. IF control is needed, a harness is much much more difficult to work a two way communication on. The harnes DOES distribute weight all around the dog when the dog pulls and can, IME, encourage a dog TO pull (unless you get a Gentle Leader Harness and now you dog is encouraged to sit all the time which is not training anything either).
> 
> A collar allows for more precise communication, be it a dog self correcting as he goes to the end of the leash while you stand still or by your changing direction and clicking and treating him as he shows up at your side again. If the dog lags in a harness you are pulling the dog from around the middle (which actully interferes physically with the nerves that help a dog to walk and stand). If the dog goes ahead of you and pulls, the harness actually makes pulling more comfortabale for the dog.
> 
> A harness is just.. a mess.. when it comes to communication. That is my experience.


I can see what you're saying and respect this, but what would you recommend/what would be your course of action for young puppies (I'm experiencing this currently with my 12 week foster weim) that walk great on leash for general walks, but dart at random for no reason (because they're puppies and don't know better?) which ends their leash length and forces them to strike the end of the leash with great force, whipping them around by the neck yelping and crying? This happened once on collar with my foster weim, and now I use the harness instead.


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## Elana55

DJEtzel said:


> I can see what you're saying and respect this, but what would you recommend/what would be your course of action for young puppies (I'm experiencing this currently with my 12 week foster weim) that walk great on leash for general walks, but dart at random for no reason (because they're puppies and don't know better?) which ends their leash length and forces them to strike the end of the leash with great force, whipping them around by the neck yelping and crying? This happened once on collar with my foster weim, and now I use the harness instead.


AFTER teaching the dog to respond to his name (clicker training) and that his name means good things and being attentive to you, you start leash work. 

The dog should start out dragging a leash in a confined area where there is insufficient room for the dog to hit the end of the leash if you hold it (like in a room). When the dog is used to the dragging leash you pick up one end and follow the dog (no pulling). As the dog nears the end of the leash, say the dog's name and offer food. As the dog is coming toward you reel in the leash. Gradually shorten the leash until the dog feels the tug at the end and turns because you have been saying his name and getting him to return. Now condition turning toward you when he feels that self imposed tug. All inside, few distractions. 

Eventually you walk around the room with the dog between you and the wall and you click and treat every time the dog is where you want him to be on walks (use the wall to help guide him). Click and treat for position in relation to you. Click and treat for turning or stopping when he feels a leash tug (all gentle at this point). 

Eventually graduate to the dog following YOU.. and when that is reliable in a small space, graduate to larger spaces and more distractions. 

It is time consuming but it is training. Do a bit every day and you will get it. 

Quite honestly, I train a lot of this off leash in a yard (walking next to me). I also add the leash too, but not all the time. I really never had a dog pull or hurt themselves on leash with a collar but then I believe in preventing the behavior in the first place. I see the dog get near the end of the leash and I divert them with their name or a gentle tug BEFORE they hit the end of the leash or I go with them so they do not pull letting them lead while I gradually put pressure on the leash and turn the dog in a circle. 

What I am saying is if the dog darts they do not hit the end of the leash full force. I have buffered the end with some slack, taught the dog something else, have the dog tuned into his name and the fact that I have good things and, if necessary I follow the dog. I don't know if any of this is any help at all to you and I am not there to see you or the dog. 

Once you allow yourself to be pulled by the dog that behavior self reinforces and the dog thinks that they NEED to pull you around.


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## LazyGRanch713

Elana55 said:


> Once you allow yourself to be pulled by the dog that behavior self reinforces and the *dog thinks that they NEED to pull you around*.



Exactly why I can't STAND flexis...


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## Tankstar

Id get a collar, get the pup used to walking inside, then out in the bakc yard, then in the front. you will have a good few weeks to train allt his before you can do normal walks outdoors any way 9waiting for all puppy injections)


Elana55 said:


> A harness has two purposes:
> 1.) pulling
> 2.) tracking.
> 
> I never have owned or used a harness. I rather train the dog and you cannot train a dog in a harness.


Exactly.

Blaze wears a harness in winter when we are out hiking. as some hills are to icy for me to climb alone, I make him help drag me up lol



LazyGRanch713 said:


> Exactly why I can't STAND flexis...


 Oh god worst invention ever.
Ok I wont say worst, as they are useful somtimes. But normal every day walks inthe neighboorhood or park they do not belong.


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## Jacksons Mom

Elana55 said:


> If you use a properly adjusted martingale collar and couple it with training (this includes Pos. Reinf. training) you will not get pulling and you will not get a dog that can escape the collar by pulling his head out.
> 
> A dog on leash is a two way communication. In training dogs and people with their dogs, the rule is no harnesses. IF control is needed, a harness is much much more difficult to work a two way communication on. The harnes DOES distribute weight all around the dog when the dog pulls and can, IME, encourage a dog TO pull (unless you get a Gentle Leader Harness and now you dog is encouraged to sit all the time which is not training anything either).
> 
> A collar allows for more precise communication, be it a dog self correcting as he goes to the end of the leash while you stand still or by your changing direction and clicking and treating him as he shows up at your side again. If the dog lags in a harness you are pulling the dog from around the middle (which actully interferes physically with the nerves that help a dog to walk and stand). If the dog goes ahead of you and pulls, the harness actually makes pulling more comfortabale for the dog.
> 
> A harness is just.. a mess.. when it comes to communication. That is my experience.


I totally get what you're saying. And nothing peeves me more than seeing a little dog pulling like a little hopping bunny rabbit on a harness on a long flexi lead with no control. But there ARE certain breeds that are very prone to CT and I really don't know the statisitics or how often a dog actually experiences a true collapsed treacha but I feel comfortable with a harness and have NEVER had a problem with them and will always use them. Jackson does NOT pull me around, he's a very good walker on a harness and leash, but yes I do like to allow him his time on walks to go out and sniff a tree, etc, (we do this in the beginning and end of the walk) and honestly, one VERY slight tug on the leash such as pulling towards a tree when I allow it, causes him to gag/cough. I would much rather just use a harness and have never had an issue with it.


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## lil_fuzzy

My dog walks just fine on a harness, no problems with communication at all. She doesn't pull, if she gets to the end of the rope lead she stops and waits for me to catch up. If a dog is trained in a harness it will know how to behave on one, there is no reason why you can't train a dog how to behave in a harness the same way you would with a collar. The dog just needs to learn to read the signals from the harness the way it does with a collar.


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## TorachiKatashi

I don't like harnesses at all, on any size or age of dog. They ARE designed to encourage a dog to pull, and to allow him to throw his entire weight into it. There's a reason that harnesses are used in sports such as sledding, weight pulling, carting... I know they make "front clip" harnesses, but I've tried them and found them very clunky and annoying to use. The only time I would ever recommend a harness is for a dog who has a diagnosed problem with their neck/trachea - not just a breed who is "predispositioned" to it. I find Martingales work well on all sizes, and have seen them used successfully on many breeds, including toy breeds like Chis and Yorkies. As far as collars go, they are by far the safest for such dogs; buckle collars apply a strong pressure to the throat when the dog is pulling, whereas a martingale applies an even pressure around the neck. I prefer the ones with the chain loop as opposed to the fabric loop, I find them a lot more sturdy and if you get a high-quality one (not a cheap $5 one from the pet store), they should last virtually the life of your dog.


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## Root

TorachiKatashi said:


> I don't like harnesses at all, on any size or age of dog. They ARE designed to encourage a dog to pull, and to allow him to throw his entire weight into it. There's a reason that harnesses are used in sports such as sledding, weight pulling, carting... I know they make "front clip" harnesses, but I've tried them and found them very clunky and annoying to use. The only time I would ever recommend a harness is for a dog who has a diagnosed problem with their neck/trachea - not just a breed who is "predispositioned" to it. I find Martingales work well on all sizes, and have seen them used successfully on many breeds, including toy breeds like Chis and Yorkies. As far as collars go, they are by far the safest for such dogs; buckle collars apply a strong pressure to the throat when the dog is pulling, whereas a martingale applies an even pressure around the neck. I prefer the ones with the chain loop as opposed to the fabric loop, I find them a lot more sturdy and if you get a high-quality one (not a cheap $5 one from the pet store), they should last virtually the life of your dog.


Several months ago it was my intention to get a martingale collar on Dr. Ian Dunbar's recommendation in his mini book "Before and After Getting Your Puppy." Unfortunately I let a PetSmart employee talk me out of it for reasons I no longer remember. lol Instead I bought a traditional collar and more recently a harness. I use both simultaneously and I'm at a point in my pup's training where she walks fairly well when the leash is clipped to either. The only exception is when she's feeling particularly energetic (maybe on a day after a rainy day when I didn't walk her) The harness I purchased clips near the back and doesn't offer the control I'd need to be able to use it effectively as a training device. Still, it's nice to have for when someone other than myself walks my ~10 pound pup so I wouldn't have to be concerned about unintentional choking. Even I unintentionally but infrequently choke my dog when she's intent on running and I'm just walking. I've also had my pup slip out of her collar once. So I haven't been completely satisfied with either the harness or the collar. I'm going to have to try a martingale and see how that works.


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## jess4525

I use a harness on Cam for walking. I purchased: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3046157 from Petsmart. 

He's very strong and always pulled a lot on our walks and got himself worked up. I started using this harness and he has been doing much better.


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## TorachiKatashi

Root said:


> Several months ago it was my intention to get a martingale collar on Dr. Ian Dunbar's recommendation in his mini book "Before and After Getting Your Puppy." Unfortunately I let a PetSmart employee talk me out of it for reasons I no longer remember. lol Instead I bought a traditional collar and more recently a harness. I use both simultaneously and I'm at a point in my pup's training where she walks fairly well when the leash is clipped to either. The only exception is when she's feeling particularly energetic (maybe on a day after a rainy day when I didn't walk her) The harness I purchased clips near the back and doesn't offer the control I'd need to be able to use it effectively as a training device. Still, it's nice to have for when someone other than myself walks my ~10 pound pup so I wouldn't have to be concerned about unintentional choking. Even I unintentionally but infrequently choke my dog when she's intent on running and I'm just walking. I've also had my pup slip out of her collar once. So I haven't been completely satisfied with either the harness or the collar. I'm going to have to try a martingale and see how that works.


If your dog is slipping her collar, then a Martingale is the only way to go. That's what they were originally made for, because a lot of dogs (primarily sighthounds, and also my big thick-necked mutt) have necks as big around as their heads, and can slip out of a standard collar unless it is made uncomfortably tight. I didn't originally get my Martingale as a training collar, I got it after Bear slipped his standard collar in front of the grooming salon and almost ran into the street. It's nice and comfortable when he's not pulling, but then tightens enough to prevent him to backing out of it when he does.


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## Angela

Wow, what a great thread. 

I have a 14 week old puppy, and I am learning, she will not walk with me, unless I start training. The good news is that I have taught her a pretty solid sit and come. She knows her name (Sophie) and I have found the training treat that she will do anything for lol. After reading this thread, I held out a treat for her to sniff, started walking (while holding out the treat) and as she started walking to get the treat, I said "HEEL" good girl. I am amazed at how far she will go with me without wandering off and pulling, when she knows that I have a treat. 

I always thought the HEEL command was for show / agility dogs. I didn't realize how important this command was until just recently. Another useful thing I read was when you stop to give the treat -- hold the treat up so the dog naturally sits to get it. This way the dog learns that when you stop, she sits. This is great and I am going to work on training this consistantly. I have a wheaten terrier and they are known "pullers" and my dog doesn't seem to be the exception. 

I would like to invest in a good Martingale collar -- where do you find this if not at the pet store? 

Thank you Elana55! That post is going to make my life a WHOLE lot easier. Not that training is easy but it sure beats the difficulty of having a dog who thinks they need to pull you around!!!!!!!


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## DJEtzel

Angela said:


> Wow, what a great thread.
> 
> I have a 14 week old puppy, and I am learning, she will not walk with me, unless I start training. The good news is that I have taught her a pretty solid sit and come. She knows her name (Sophie) and I have found the training treat that she will do anything for lol. After reading this thread, I held out a treat for her to sniff, started walking (while holding out the treat) and as she started walking to get the treat, I said "HEEL" good girl. I am amazed at how far she will go with me without wandering off and pulling, when she knows that I have a treat.
> *
> I always thought the HEEL command was for show / agility dogs. I didn't realize how important this command was until just recently. Another useful thing I read was when you stop to give the treat -- hold the treat up so the dog naturally sits to get it. This way the dog learns that when you stop, she sits. This is great and I am going to work on training this consistantly. I have a wheaten terrier and they are known "pullers" and my dog doesn't seem to be the exception. *
> I would like to invest in a good Martingale collar -- where do you find this if not at the pet store?
> 
> Thank you Elana55! That post is going to make my life a WHOLE lot easier. Not that training is easy but it sure beats the difficulty of having a dog who thinks they need to pull you around!!!!!!!


This way of teaching sit sounds like you're luring a LOT and you're going to make a very dependent dog if you continue doing that. You shouldn't even be SHOWING the dog a treat. You need to fade that lure quick. Check out some of kikopup's videos on youtube. She demonstrates it very well. You should be asking your dog to sit, not luring it to sit.


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## Angela

Yes, I agree. I taught Sophie sit, come, and off using treats. Once I was confident she knew the words and what they meant -- I faded the treats. Now I give her a treat only occasionally but she does it consistantly (although I am still working on commands when she is distracted). So, I definitely plan to fade the treats for heel work, but feel it may be necessary until she understands exactly what I am asking of her?? I will def check out those videos. This Thursday night Sophie goes for her first night of puppy socialization, which I am really excited about. 

Actually, since she already knows to sit, I could tell her sit and she will do it. I just found it useful to teach the dog that when you stop on a walk, the dog sits, rather than try to go off and sniff or chase something.


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## DJEtzel

Angela said:


> Yes, I agree. I taught Sophie sit, come, and off using treats. Once I was confident she knew the words and what they meant -- I faded the treats. Now I give her a treat only occasionally but she does it consistantly (although I am still working on commands when she is distracted). So, I definitely plan to fade the treats for heel work, but feel it may be necessary until she understands exactly what I am asking of her?? I will def check out those videos. This Thursday night Sophie goes for her first night of puppy socialization, which I am really excited about.
> 
> Actually, since she already knows to sit, I could tell her sit and she will do it. I just found it useful to teach the dog that when you stop on a walk, the dog sits, rather than try to go off and sniff or chase something.


No, you're misunderstanding. Treats are great. Luring is not. You shouldn't be phsyically luring the dog to do any command after they've started doing it. It becomes muscle memory and that is how they learn. You can and should continue using treats to reward, but should not be dragging your hand above their head to get them to sit more than two or three times in the beginning. 

Teaching an auto sit is a great idea if you have no plans on competing, which it doesn't seem you do, so good job!


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## Angela

DJEtzel said:


> No, you're misunderstanding. Treats are great. Luring is not. You shouldn't be phsyically luring the dog to do any command after they've started doing it. It becomes muscle memory and that is how they learn. You can and should continue using treats to reward, but should not be dragging your hand above their head to get them to sit more than two or three times in the beginning.


I understand now! And you are very right... I wasn't luring my dog to sit but I tried luring her to walk with me and I realized quickly that it doesn't work. Well, it works in the sense that your dog will be at your left side but she started jumping up and trying to get the treat -- not the result I was looking for lol. 

I am going to definitely check out those youtube videos by kikopup. 

Thanks for the suggestions


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