# Border Collie concentration problems



## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Hi, i have a Border Collie that is about 8 months old. Unlike every other breed that i have had that cant pay attention to anything longer than 3 seconds, Kirra has a very different problem (but maybe common in her breed). She cant break her attention from things. She sees her tennis ball that she loves and she cant stop staring. i did research before getting a BC, so i understand she is in working mode and is remaining focused on the task at hand...but if she even sees her ball or frisbee for one second, she wont obey commands of any kind, and she avoids physical contact completely. the only way to solve it is to put the ball, frisbee and any other toy away for at least 5 minutes so she will give it up. Is this normal? What can i do?

Kirra is also just very hardheaded and resistant to command training. Our Lab, Troy was so easy to teach commands and eager to learn, but Kirra seems much more interested in catching frisbees and such....and refuses to learn simple things like "sit". I teach her the same way i have taught any other dog, and i KNOW she gets it, because if i even teach to push down on her back, she sits...she just wont do it on her own.

One more thing...leash training. Ugh. Troy=excellent. Kirra=impossible. I have never seen a dog hate leashes so much in my entire life. When i put it on her collar, she hits the deck and refuses to move. Ive had this happen with other dogs...but with patience, treats, and a little bit of tough love, they get it and begin to enjoy it. Kirra, no. She wants no part of it. I dont want to spend money on an obedience class, but if i have to i will. Any suggestions as to how i can fix this on my own? This is our first BC, and she is a joy, we love her....but we just want to fix the snags we have run into in her training. We knew what we were getting into when we got her lol.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Have you tried using the tennis ball as a motivator for leash work? Clearly, there's something about that tennis ball that's motivating or attracting to her, which is probably why she's so focused on it. Maybe that will get her to walk on the leash. 

I've never owned a BC (I want one, though), but I would try having the ball in her vision and her on the leash and walk towards the ball. See if that doesn't get her up and moving.

But what I would do with all her training is try to use the ball and frisbee as her "treats". If she sits, she can go get the ball. If she downs, she can get a throw of the frisbee, etc.

I wouldn't try to fight her focus - I'd try to manipulate it to my advantage to get what I want out of her.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

For some dogs certain reinforcers become SO rewarding that they will be unable to work or do anything around them . (I'm sorry I'm not sounding very scientific right now, just speaking on experience with Mia). My herding breeds weren't so bad (except for Nikki and the chinchilla), but my youngest papillon is very all or nothing in temperament and it is very very easy for her to obsess. When I used to get a tennis ball out she was lost. She would scream at it and just basically lose her mind. If it was anywhere in sight she would blow me off completely.

First thing first... limit the amount of tennis ball/frisbee time. Mia had a tennis ball whenever she wanted it and I'd throw it as long as she wanted- BIG mistake. The tennis ball comes out and is put away when *I* want it to. And yes, I had to sit through screaming and destruction after I put them up for a while. Even if they were out of sight, she'd focus on trying to break down the door to get to them. I paired a word with the end of the game ('All done'). And that was that. She tried my patience trying to get it back but eventually she learned when it was gone, it was gone. When she calmed down and behaved and didn't focus on the ball, she was rewarded with treats.

Later I would put it just out of reach. I armed myself with a clicker and treats and would basically use premacking. (You can find good demos on youtube). Also check out the book control unleashed. With Mia I did so many focus exercises with the tennis ball in place eventually building up to the point that I could toss it gently and she'd stay calmly. (We still can't toss it behind her or throw it hard or she'll break the stay but it's baby steps...)

Mia is now almost 2 years old and the tennis ball stays out all the time. She knows now that when I say it's done, it's done. It's also become the best reward for her in agility and obedience class too. Other dogs are rewarded with food, but to Mia NOTHING is better than a tennis ball. so she gets a ball for a job well done. The problem with trying to use it right away as a motivator is if it's already ingrained in them to obsess over it, it can be pretty impossible to get anything done with it around. With Mia I had to step back and remove it then add it back in once her brain had figured out to work with ME in the presence of her favorite thing in the world.

I'm not sure if that's 'conventional' but that's what has worked for us. I hope it helps you some.


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Yes, this is absolutely a breed trait. Getting obsessive about things is not at all uncommon for a young BC. Be careful to manage these obsessions, because they can become all-encompasing. For example, I've heard of BC's whose owners think that laser pointers are a fun little toy. The dog gets obsessive and ends up spending the rest of its life hunting for the tiny dot that they can't get.

First, all of getting over these obessions will take time. She's only 8mo. How long have you had her?

What do you do with her in the way of training? Have you tried clicker training (if not, you can read more about it on this forum)? What kinds of treats are you using? Is she more motivated by other things, like toys? Try to figure out what motivates her the most and use that in your training. Instead of luring or pushing her to do what you want (i.e. pushing her back down into a sit), wait until she offers the behavior, and then throw a little party. Dogs learn much more quickly when they're thinking for themselves.

On the leash problem, try to make leash walks more fun. Maybe you can walk around on a leash for a minute and then toss the disc a few times. The dog learns that the leash is required to get to the place where fun things happen, even if it isn't in reality.

Good luck!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah certain breeds/types, and personalities are very prone to obsession. The nice thing is you have a built in rewarder if you can just harness it to have it work FOR you instead of against you. A lot of people spend their time revving their dog up to get motivated, but I spend my time keeping her toned down and focused. You definitely want to work on it though. Mia's my first real obsessive dog and I almost messed it up with her. You sound like you're better off than me though if your dog will move on after 5 minutes.


----------



## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

The leash idea with the ball is actually a fantastic idea, i never thought of trying that. As for taking away the ball, it just doesnt seem to work. i tried it. She will merely go find another one of her toys and drop it by my feet. i can hide all her toys, she'll find something. and when she runs out of things, she just gets bored and leaves. i have stood in front of her for over 20 minutes waiting for her to sit with the ball in my hand...she refuses. she can stand there and stare for what seems like forever. she doesnt respond to me whatsoever. I have definitely tried using the ball as a reward. Shes been like this ever since she was a puppy. we could lock her in a room and she just sits quietly. She is just very shy and attentive i guess. I will definitely try some of these ideas though. Thanks for all the help!


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Oh border collies..lol

First off she needs to use her brain, not her brawn..so trying to mold a sit (with physical pressure) is not going to work well and may make her less trusting of you. Clicker training works the brain well and most people I know with BCs and Aussies go to town with working a clicker except when doing herding training. BC's are naturally standoffish and obsessive, some (ok most) need to be taught an off switch.

A great site for info on clicker training is www.clickersolutions.com and there is also some amazing teaching videos on youtube, search for kikopup's channel. 

If it were me. I'd get rid of the toys (most if not all of them) and put them away where they are only brought out when YOU are to play with her and only let her use problem solving toys like Nina Ottoson toys, food/treat balls etc. 

As for loose leash walking...the vids can help you there, but it is also very important to realize that most dogs do not "get" good leash walking until they are into adulthood..it's a long process. Ahimsa dog training (also on youtube) has a great video called "Silky Leash Training" that teaches giving into resistance on the leash with a clicker and is really quite amazing. It's based on an exercise by a well known trainer named Shirley Chong.

Remember that you have a highly SENSITIVE and highly intelligent working breed dog on your hands. Smart dogs are often harder to train and that is without the built in sensitivity. You have to be aware of social pressure (too much eye contact, being in her space too much) as BC's will move away from you a lot if you put too little space between you.

I highly recommend you look into a class using positive methods that has a trainer well versed in BC's...both for you learning to understand your dog and to help with socialization and handling. It's well worth the money.

If you'd like to pm me your general location I may be able to find someone in your area. Let me know if that's of interest to you.


----------



## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Cracker said:


> Oh border collies..lol
> 
> First off she needs to use her brain, not her brawn..so trying to mold a sit (with physical pressure) is not going to work well and may make her less trusting of you. Clicker training works the brain well and most people I know with BCs and Aussies go to town with working a clicker except when doing herding training. BC's are naturally standoffish and obsessive, some (ok most) need to be taught an off switch.
> 
> ...


This was extremely helpful. I actually already know of a place around here my vet recommended me to, and i was contemplating it. Im familiar with clicker training, our lab is trained off a click, and was our first try at the clicker. Kirra has never "clicked" with the clicker, though ill admit we havent given her a whole lot of alone time from Troy, our mistake. Troy responded very well to something like pushing down on his rear to sit. But, if you havent noticed, Troy is one of those exceptional dogs that just turned out to be extremely easy to train, and i realize thats a rarity. That's honestly probably why we are so clueless with Kirra, we're spoiled by Troy. He loves walking with a leash on, and would carry around his leash when he was just over 2 months old. I've had the leash problem with a couple of the cockers we used to have, and they grew into it. 

People told us this breed was not like any of the breeds we have taught before, and they were right. But i think it will be fun. Thanks so much for the info, it all makes a lot more sense after reading that. She does really have to have her personal space. When we throw her balls she goes into herding around us and if we come close to her she backs wayy off, and she clearly does not like to be touched unless she comes to us for it. She also doesnt like to give us the balls back. She brings them about 4 feet away and drops them then backs up. If we keep eye contact and wait for her to bring it closer, she picks it up and takes it further away. That's why i feel over my head here. The only dogs i have ever brought up were Cocker Spaniels, 1 Golden Retriever, and 1 Lab. This is just a whole new world. 

But once again thanks for the info i will look into all this!


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Well, BC's are definitely a breed apart - that's for sure. And they tend to be very different from one another, as well. Most are biddable, but you have to get them on your side first. I would say that obsessive tendencies are a breed trait, but I don't think I'd call say that that majority are stand-offish. 

I agree with Laurelin that if you can get the dog using her smarts to work FOR you, you'll have a powerful ally.


----------



## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Well, BC's are definitely a breed apart - that's for sure. And they tend to be very different from one another, as well. Most are biddable, but you have to get them on your side first. I would say that obsessive tendencies are a breed trait, but I don't think I'd call say that that majority are stand-offish.
> 
> I agree with Laurelin that if you can get the dog using her smarts to work FOR you, you'll have a powerful ally.


So are you referring to using the things Cracker was suggesting? How do you suggest i get her working FOR me?


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

s2thalayer said:


> So are you referring to using the things Cracker was suggesting? How do you suggest i get her working FOR me?


Yes, Laurelin and Cracker both had good suggestions. NILIF will help you a lot (sticky on this forum on that), as will clicker training. These issues are going to take time and patience to fix, but as you said, it can be a lot of fun.

I lived with a lab for a couple of years before getting my BC (mix). The lab was definitely a friendly, mellow, lovable dog who just wanted to do whatever would please her people. My border collie is like that now, but it took several hard months of convincing her. Even now, she requires a lot more work than the lab ever did (both mental and physical exercise, attention, etc.) She's also a heck of a lot more fun than the lab ever was.


----------



## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

I just want to say OMG YOU GUYS ARE MIRACULOUS. Seriously, you should start charging money for advice. After about 4 months of attempted training, Kirra was completely uninterested, nonreactive, shy, and completely uncooperative to all our attempts. Nothing worked. Getting her alone in a room, tieing her to a leash and attempting...attempting with Troy nearby...food, clicker, NOTHING. Today i took you guys advice, along with a bit of my own. I took her out alone (which i will say broke my friggin heart, Troy was PISSED) and spent a lot of alone time with her. Tried the clicker again for the first time since the entire week of attempting and failing with it about a 3 months ago. I tried food rewards as always. I got a few reactions which really had me astonished to see progression for the first time...EVER. She did some "Downs" which she has never done before (She knows absolutely zero commands). Nothing to jump up and down about, but progression none the less. 

I tried the leash ideas. Throwing the ball worked okay, nothing special. But i had noticed one thing...all this alone time training and working the clicker really had her coming noticeably closer to me and more often. She had been choking a lot on her food and just not really getting too excited about taking it. So i switched to providing her with affection. To my amazement she began walking with me, about 7 feet, then would walk in front of me and wait. I would rub her and say good girl, and she would walk some more. We continued this out into the fields, around the barn, and down the driveway. This dog has hit the deck when she got on the leash and refused to move since she was a puppy. This was freaking amazing.

I then let Troy out before he ripped the gate down to get out. i pulled out the tennis balls that i had put up for her 1 on 1 training by request. i tried using it as a reward as i had tried previously, but this time with the clicker + affection rewarding. She learned to "sit" and VERY WELL. She also began bringing the ball TO me and sitting it in my hand for the FIRST TIME EVER. She always drops it a few feet away. I then put her on the leash WITH Troy and she did fantastic. 

I am just so grateful for what you guys have informed me of, i cant even explain it. Kirra has made a night and day improvement overnight. The whole time i was working with her today i kept the thought in my mind of "let her use her brain". I used no physical pressure, tried to be sensitive, let her have her personal space, and tried not to have too much eye contact. Don't get me wrong, we have always given her affection, but she never seemed to want it. She always avoided any touching and acted shy. Now im beginning to believe she just didnt trust me a lot. Thank you guys so much for your insight, Kirra and i connected for the first time ever and she has turned from a difficult dog to one of the easiest to train.

(P.S. This sounds funny, but her body language even seemed more of "asking" me to throw the ball now instead of "telling" me. As in before she would drop the ball nearby, step back, and stare. Now she drops it in my hand and tries to determine what i want her to do before i throw it.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

LOL. I'm so glad you're having some early success! Very reinforcing for both the human and the dog! 

BTW. I do charge. Several of us here are trainers or trainers in training...but here it's free because posts like yours are rewarding enough.


----------



## dcetrtic (Feb 22, 2011)

I love Borders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxWeeV1hzBs


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

With that much "eye" and "focus" it is too bad you cannot get your dog out on sheep. Seriously.


----------

