# Ask the Pit Bull People...



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

For those really curious or just vaguely interested...

If you have question about Pit Bulls...post it here and myself and others will be more than willing to answer..

Anything...from details of ownership to breed history and beyond...Please ask


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## trickaboo (Nov 12, 2008)

ive heard of lots of strains of pitbull, but i dont know what some of them are, like razors edge pitbull, gottline, stuff like that. what exactly are they. someone told me difference between blue nose and red nose (besides the color) is that blue noses are known to have a bigger build. could you help figure all this out?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

There are not different strains of pit bull (two words)....they only difference between a blue nose and a red nose is the color. There are different bloodlines....meaning that breeders bread certain dogs together to create looks and drive to suit their purpose....but they are all pit bulls.


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

I have a question:about the whole 'pit bull' thing. The AKC recognizes the Staffie, but then there is also an APBT - is that UKC? What about the other breeds, like the 'spuds' dog? How are all those related? Do they have similar temperments?


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

"Spuds McKenzie" was a Bull Terrier. Before dog fighting was outlawed in England, the BT was more like an American Bulldog than what we see today. At least judging by the early paintings.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

BarclaysMom said:


> I have a question:about the whole 'pit bull' thing. The AKC recognizes the Staffie, but then there is also an APBT - is that UKC? What about the other breeds, like the 'spuds' dog? How are all those related? Do they have similar temperments?


You can kinda look at it like this, The American Staffordshire Terrier is the same as the American Pit Bull Terrier. They are the same breed, but the AST is bred for "beauty" while the APBT is the "working" line. 

The AKC wanted to register the APBT but didn't want the fighting to follow so they just called the APBT by a different name. The AST is "suppose" to be a "kinder" Pit bull, but in all honestly, you can register your Pit Bull as an APBT in UKC and AST in AKC.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

trickaboo said:


> ive heard of lots of strains of pitbull, but i dont know what some of them are, like razors edge pitbull, gottline, stuff like that. what exactly are they.


razor's edge and gottiline are controversial amongst pit bull people...

Basically a bloodline is a family of dogs. The bloodline will usually be based off of one or a few individuals. Spicy can explain this better...

Gotti was a particular dog. Gottiline dogs are heavily bred on that dog Gotti. its not a good line IMO

There are others, Jeep, Boudreaux, Sorrells, etc etc...



trickaboo said:


> someone told me difference between blue nose and red nose (besides the color) is that blue noses are known to have a bigger build. could you help figure all this out?


there is no physical difference save for color.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> I have a question:about the whole 'pit bull' thing. The AKC recognizes the Staffie, but then there is also an APBT - is that UKC? What about the other breeds, like the 'spuds' dog? How are all those related? Do they have similar temperments?


LOL...I will try my best to answer this..even though I'm not sure I understand it totally.

1. UKC recognizes the APBT and the STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER..while the AKC only recognizes the STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER

2. Regarding the "Spud dog" aka Bull Terrier ..from what I have read on the AKC and Bull Terrier club websites is _During the early 1860s, James Hinks of Birmingham, England responded to the introduction of formal dog shows and the burgeoning demand for pet and prize dogs by developing the breed we know today as the Bull Terrier. Hinks' dogs were more refined and consistent in type than previous Bull-and-Terriers. They were characterized by their hallmark pure white coats, often being referred to as White Cavaliers. As the rhyme goes Hinks "Found a Bull Terrier a tattered old bum" and "Made him a dog for a gentleman's chum".

Records indicate that Hinks' breeding program employed existing Bull-and-Terriers, his own white Bulldog Madman and the now extinct White English Terriers. These early dogs were all white, with no colored markings permitted, but over time patches of color on the head became acceptable. In the early 1900s a few breeders crossed their White Cavaliers with colored Staffordshire Bull Terriers and established the colored coat. The "Colored" was recognized as a separate variety of Bull Terrier in 1936. The standard for the Colored variety is the same as for the White except for coat color, which must be any color other than white, or any color with white just so long as the white does not predominate._


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

trickaboo said:


> ive heard of lots of strains of pitbull, but i dont know what some of them are, like razors edge pitbull, gottline, stuff like that. what exactly are they. someone told me difference between blue nose and red nose (besides the color) is that blue noses are known to have a bigger build. could you help figure all this out?


Razor edge, Gottline are just blood lines. Each breeder breeds for different things. Some breeders (still) breed for gameness, others breed for looks. All in all they are all the same breed, but are bred for something different. 

Red nose, Blue nose, White, black, "purple" it's all color. "rare blue nose" is just a color, 2 red nose parents can breed and have black nose puppies or blue nose puppies depending on their blood line. It's like looking at the Lab line and calling Black labs a different breed then Chocolate and Golden colors.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> I have a question:about the whole 'pit bull' thing. The AKC recognizes the Staffie, but then there is also an APBT - is that UKC? What about the other breeds, like the 'spuds' dog? How are all those related? Do they have similar temperments?




Darkmoon's take is probably the simplest way to look at it...basically when the AKC first registered the Staffy it wanted to distance itself from the fighting dog registry called the UKC. So they tried out a bunch of different names and stuck with AST....then the standards started to diverge just a bit...and then they created the ADBA registry...and their standard is slightly different...

and there are IMO enough significant physical and tempermental differences to warrant the differentiation of different breed. 

As for the EBT their connection to the pit bull is further removed. The two breeds are descended from common anscestry but a couple hundered years back...They are very similar in temperment in my experience...EBT were bred for a downface characteristic that if you look at early Bull Terrier there is a significant difference from today's EBT. But IMO that's one of the biggest differences..

Lesser is temperment...they are slightly less intense dogs from what I've seen.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

EBT here in the UK are very agressive,there are just fewer than staffordshire bull terriers(which is the APBT of England where media hype is concerned).

I just have to point out that EBT are a part of the Pit family as much as some would like to use thier distance in relation to avoid that fact.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

trickaboo said:


> ive heard of lots of strains of pitbull, but i dont know what some of them are, like razors edge pitbull, gottline, stuff like that. what exactly are they. someone told me difference between blue nose and red nose (besides the color) is that blue noses are known to have a bigger build. could you help figure all this out?


Strains is another word for bloodlines. Although some might put a different meaning when using strain, such as if someone is breeding a certain bloodline it is their own strain after several generations. Like saying the Smith's strain of Chinaman dogs. Other call bloodlines named after the founding breeder strains and bloodlines named after the foundation dog bloodlines.

Razor Edge and Gotti are both controversal lines and usually considered American Bullies (which they now have their own registry) which are derived from APBT/AST and other breeds to created a larger, wider dog that you could say is the like the English Bulldog then a Pit Bull. Not all RE dogs are AmBullies, there are those which still are close to the original RE dogs that haven't been cross bred or breed for exaggerated proportions. Razor Edge is based off dogs that are mostly AST blood. Gotti is a greyline bred dog who is the foundation dog for his own bloodline. There are some ok Gotti dogs but there are many inferior dogs (health, temperament problems) due to so much overbreeding and heavily inbreeding on the dogs with problems making more. 

The difference between blue nose and red nose is the color of the nose. A red nose has a red/liver colored nose. A blue nose has a blue/gray colored nose. Nose color doesn't dictate build, genetics does from the parents/bloodlines. Most blue Pit Bulls are AST, AST/APBT or have AST blood in their pedigree, but not all as their are some exceptions. You can have pups in a litter with different nose color and they are not going to have different build just because of color. You can find a blue nose that has a lean athletic build and a red nose dog which has large bone, wide body and is heavy. 



BarclaysMom said:


> I have a question:about the whole 'pit bull' thing. The AKC recognizes the Staffie, but then there is also an APBT - is that UKC? What about the other breeds, like the 'spuds' dog? How are all those related? Do they have similar temperments?


The AKC recognizes the American Staffordshire Terrier (which came from APBTs) and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier
The UKC recognizes the American Pit Bull Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier

The UKC was created in 1898 to keep pedigree record of pit bulls, match wins and created set rules for pit fights. Later they recognized more breeds and created competition events, they have always been very dog sport oriented and of course conformation shows. 

The AKC didn't want to accept these dogs in the beginning. Finally in 1935 they decided to but didn't want the fighting aspect so they used the name Staffordshire Terrier and in 1936 the first Pit was registered as a "Staffordshire Terrier". Later in 1972 the name was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier and it was again that they opened the stud books to allow APBTs to register, that was the last time however. Although the AKC didn't like the thought of dog fighting some AST still continued to breed game dogs and of course the original stock used were APBT. In 1909 the ADBA was created to also register the APBT and will accept AST/SBT for register as APBT. The UKC will also allow the AST to register as APBT. The AKC will not allow APBT to register as AST because they have closed stud books, this is with any breed. You can't AKC register a UKC registered Lab if its parents were not also AKC registered. 

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier are from the same dogs just bred to a different standard mainly, they are very closely related but so many years has created noticable differences. Typically the APBT and the AST are also noticeably different, although there are exceptions of those with very little physical differences. There was also SBT bred with the APBT early on and of course later again.

The "spuds' dog would be the Bull Terrier/English Bull Terrier. These dogs are also related through their ancestors, they are from the same dogs bull and terrier crosses. However Hinks and their fanciers made them a bench breed fairly early on for the most part. Although you will find that before Pits were AKC recognized that some were registered as Bull Terriers. Some Bull Terriers were bred with APBTs in early history and in some lines not too terribly long ago. Some of these lines might show a little of the Bull Terrier influences now. Historical paintings show that early Bull Terriers looked similar to APBTs, they did not have the "egg head". Some very old Pit photos really show the resemblance. The APBT was also refered to as the sporting Bull Terrier. 

They can have similar temperaments but still have some differences too. A lot can also depend on the bloodline, as certain dogs are more similar within the breeds and others are very different. 



pugmom said:


> LOL...I will try my best to answer this..even though I'm not sure I understand it totally.
> 
> 1. UKC recognizes the APBT and the STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER..while the AKC only recognizes the STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER


The AKC also recognizes the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier which came from AKC registering APBTs. 



Darkmoon said:


> Red nose, Blue nose, White, black, "purple" it's all color. "rare blue nose" is just a color, 2 red nose parents can breed and have black nose puppies or blue nose puppies depending on their blood line.


This is not true it is *genetically impossible*, red nose is recessive. If both are are homozygous recessive themselves then they can't produce black nose because they don't even have the genes to do so. Iff they did have then they wouldn't be red nose themselves, they'd be black nose.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

thanks Spicy.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> *
> The AKC also recognizes the American Staffordshire Bull Terrier which came from AKC registering APBTs. *
> 
> I think I'm misunderstanding this LOL....I didn't think that the akc ever registered APBTs?...and that registering th ASBT was there way of letting in APBT?....LOL this has always been confusing to me...
> ...


this is true...we have had many many discussions about this on my PBF


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

Spicy beat me to it I just wanted to add a red red nose breed with another red red nose will only have red nose pups no matter what.........


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I want a brindle pit bull and I just recently found out there is more then one type. How many different colors does brindle come in? I think I read that there is red, black, blue, and brown. Are those right and are there any more?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I want a brindle pit bull and I just recently found out there is more then one type. How many different colors does brindle come in? I think I read that there is red, black, blue, and brown. Are those right and are there any more?


As far as color variations go..brindle pretty much runs the spectrum as well as APBT coat color variations run the spectrum...Everything is acceptable except merle....merle is not an APBT trait and likely indicates a APBT/Catahoula cross...and some people I talk to frown on excessive white...but I think most of them were AmStaff folks....


just curious...if you don't mind me asking a question of my own..

Why do you want a brindle pit bull?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Its so obvious why he wants a brindle, they are the absolute best.  



xoxluvablexox said:


> I want a brindle pit bull and I just recently found out there is more then one type. How many different colors does brindle come in? I think I read that there is red, black, blue, and brown. Are those right and are there any more?


There isn't more then one type, they are just different colors. Brindle is a striped pattern. An APBT of any color can be brindle. Brindle can also be masked by black (and possibility of other colors) therefore a dog could be brindle without looking like he/she is. What I have or have had is black, brown, buckskin, gray, red red nose (also dark and light red red nose), fawn red nose, seal, there isn't just the color difference but the patterns themselves can be very different.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

"Does my dog look like a Pit Bull?"... 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is probably one of the most commonly asked questions by the general public. There are no easy answers to this query. Let me explain...

The term "Pit Bull" is a blanket term that covers ANY dog that has a short smooth coat, very muscular frame and solid head structure. "Pit Bull" is not a breed...it is just a description. The breeds that are normally grouped under the "Pit Bull" moniker are 1)APBT-American Pit Bull Terrier 2)AmStaff-American Staffordshire 3)AmBully-American Bully 4)AB-American Bulldog 5)STAFFY-Staffordshire Bull Terrier. Also, any "MIX" of the breeds mentioned above would be "considered a Pit Bull". In fact any dog, no matter what origin, that resembles these breeds can be called a "Pit Bull". 

As you can see, asking if your dog is a "Pit Bull" does not really clear anything up or identify the breed of your dog. Unless you have papers from a reputable breeder that states the pedigree of your dog, there is no way to be 100% sure of your dogs lineage. This is not to say that your dog is not an APBT or Amstaff, but you can not be 100% sure without good documentation. 

There are also questions about dogs that are registered at various Kennel Clubs...AKC, UKC, ADBA ect.. We would like to think that Kennel Clubs have very high standards when it comes to registering dogs, but they are in the business to make money and people can be shady when it comes to being truthful about breedings. "Paper Hanging" means that a breeder has been less than truthful about a dog's pedigree when registering with a Kennel Club. That is why you need to "know" your breeder and "visit" his operation if possible before you buy an APBT. If you don't know where to start, go to a few "dog shows" and talk to different dog owners. Read thru the "Sticky Threads" you see in the front of each section in the forums for some great information. Read up in the "History of the APBT" section so that you understand that this breed was bred for performance first and foremost. Of course you can always get second opinions from members on this forum to help you in your quest.

Use your common sense and sift thru the garbage to find the facts. Oh, and after all of that you have only just begun to understand the APBT.

This also holds true for other questions for the same reasons:

What kind of "pit bull" do I have?

What bloodline do you think my dog is?

How big will my dog get?

Here is a fun link to see if YOU can pick out the APBT:

http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Fin...pitbull_v4.swf


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## mylittlebecky (May 27, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Its so obvious why he wants a brindle, they are the absolute best.


clearly!


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> As far as color variations go..brindle pretty much runs the spectrum as well as APBT coat color variations run the spectrum...Everything is acceptable except merle....merle is not an APBT trait and likely indicates a APBT/Catahoula cross...and some people I talk to frown on excessive white...but I think most of them were AmStaff folks....
> 
> 
> just curious...if you don't mind me asking a question of my own..
> ...


Oh okay. So you can pretty much get a brindle pit in every color they come in.

Well I really love brindle dogs in general. They're gorgeous and different. I love pit bulls and I'm going to rescue one as soon as I am able to so I doubt I'll have much of a pick on what color I get but it will def be brindle and I'm hoping for a chocolate brindle but I would honestly take any color.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Remember when you do get your rescue make sure to post plenty of pics, especially if it is brindle!

Der I forgot chocolate brindle red nose , got that too. dark and light both. 

I think as long as you pick the right dog that is the color you like then there isn't a problem. If you just pick off color then that could be a problem. There are plenty of brindle Pits in rescues and shelters.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Oh okay. So you can pretty much get a brindle pit in every color they come in.
> 
> Well I really love brindle dogs in general. They're gorgeous and different. I love pit bulls and I'm going to rescue one as soon as I am able to so I doubt I'll have much of a pick on what color I get but it will def be brindle and I'm hoping for a chocolate brindle but I would honestly take any color.


Didn't mean to be prying but whenever I hear "I want a <insert coat color/pattern> pit bull I can't can't help but question it...Because too many times I've asked that question and the answer was either

a. because I want to breed it to a <insert coat color> pit bull.

or

b. <insert coat color> pit bulls are bigger/stronger/faster blah blah blah..


I like answer C...that just being personal preference.. Everytime I get answer C I smile in relief...

thanks for the smile...tis been a rough day...


(ps. BRINDLES RULE. )


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Remember when you do get your rescue make sure to post plenty of pics, especially if it is brindle!
> 
> Der I forgot chocolate brindle red nose , got that too. dark and light both.
> 
> I think as long as you pick the right dog that is the color you like then there isn't a problem. If you just pick off color then that could be a problem. There are plenty of brindle Pits in rescues and shelters.


I will probably end up posting a ton of pics haha. It won't be for a while now but hopefully by summer I will have my new pit bull puppy or doggie. I really havn't figured out which yet. I'm stuck between getting a puppy because I want to be able to raise it and train it myself or getting a older dog that is known to be good with other dogs.

Which reminds me of a couple questions. Does anyone have a small dog and a pit? I've read that pits don't show signs of DA till about age 2, is that right? 

I have a mini poodle and my biggest concern is that when/if I get a pit bull puppy it will be fine with my dog when it's younger but once it gets older it'll start showing signs of DA and just out of no where bite my poodle Pepper. I think my dog has a slim chance of surviving a bite from a bigger dog. He's a little thing. He's tougher then he looks but I don't think getting bit by a bigger dog would be something he could survive. 

That's my biggest and pretty much my only concern with getting a pit bull puppy. Then again it could be the same with an older dog. I know pit bulls are DA and I'm fine with that and I'm sure I'll be able to handle it. I'd just feel a lot more confortable with it if I had a bigger dog that could handle being bit if something as bad as that did ever happen. 

So I need some stories of pits with small dogs to help me. 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Didn't mean to be prying but whenever I hear "I want a <insert coat color/pattern> pit bull I can't can't help but question it...Because too many times I've asked that question and the answer was either
> 
> a. because I want to breed it to a <insert coat color> pit bull.
> 
> ...


Haha your welcome. I can't believe people actually think coat color has anything to do with being bigger, stronger, faster esc. That's so strange. I feel bad for the dogs that end up with people like that. 

Aww. Such a cutie.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I will probably end up posting a ton of pics haha. It won't be for a while now but hopefully by summer I will have my new pit bull puppy or doggie. I really havn't figured out which yet. I'm stuck between getting a puppy because I want to be able to raise it and train it myself or getting a older dog that is known to be good with other dogs.
> 
> Which reminds me of a couple questions. Does anyone have a small dog and a pit? I've read that pits don't show signs of DA till about age 2, is that right?
> 
> ...



Small dogs as in 2 pugs and a boston?....LOL


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Which reminds me of a couple questions. Does anyone have a small dog and a pit? I've read that pits don't show signs of DA till about age 2, is that right?


I've had small dog and Pits in the past and I know many people who do currently. I understand the risk of an attack were to happen, even from another medium + size dog it could be bad. 

No they can show aggression at any age, some start much younger then 2yrs and others are 3 or 4yrs (or older of course). Typically speaking many might start showing at that time because it is around the age of maturity. Where as a pups mature temperament isn't known yet. 

I'd go with an older dog who is good around other dogs. The main concern would be a fight to happen even if the other dog isn't DA. So you always want to supervise them. 



> I have a mini poodle and my biggest concern is that when/if I get a pit bull puppy it will be fine with my dog when it's younger but once it gets older it'll start showing signs of DA and just out of no where bite my poodle Pepper. I think my dog has a slim chance of surviving a bite from a bigger dog. He's a little thing. He's tougher then he looks but I don't think getting bit by a bigger dog would be something he could survive.


That's my biggest and pretty much my only concern with getting a pit bull puppy. Then again it could be the same with an older dog. I know pit bulls are DA and I'm fine with that and I'm sure I'll be able to handle it. I'd just feel a lot more confortable with it if I had a bigger dog that could handle being bit if something as bad as that did ever happen. 

So I need some stories of pits with small dogs to help me. [/QUOTE]

A pup may or may not. It could grow up with your dog and be great or it might not work well. Even if you get an older dog your dogs could one day get upset with each other so to speak. Like you mentioned.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I will probably end up posting a ton of pics haha. It won't be for a while now but hopefully by summer I will have my new pit bull puppy or doggie. I really havn't figured out which yet. I'm stuck between getting a puppy because I want to be able to raise it and train it myself or getting a older dog that is known to be good with other dogs.
> 
> Which reminds me of a couple questions. Does anyone have a small dog and a pit? I've read that pits don't show signs of DA till about age 2, is that right?
> 
> ...



dog aggression....the bat eared crazy lady in the photo is _violently_ dog aggressive. 


So here is the thing about a DA pit bull ....they can and do live with other dogs. 


But if its going to work there are some pretty basic rules I would recommend whether your pit is DA or not. The key is to be proactive and prevent problems from arising.

a. buy a breakstick. you used to be able to get them from www.pbrc.net possibly you still can...familiarize with how to use it. pull it out and do practice runs with it when your dog has got hold of a toy...

b. Never leave your pit unsupervised with other dogs. Separate and contain them when you leave. If you crate then crate them in separate rooms with closed doors between them. 

c. If your pit gets into it with another dog once...they are more likely to do it again...making dog parks not the best idea...if your dog gets in a fight at the DP then they may come home and go for your other dog simply because they are all hyped about the first fight. 

d. Don't leave high value items laying around. toys, chews etc only with supervision or while completely separated. 

e. make sure to spend one on one time with each dog. you yourself can be viewed as a high value resource..so make sure they know you are not being withheld from them. 

How is your current dog with other dogs?




xoxluvablexox said:


> Haha your welcome. I can't believe people actually think coat color has anything to do with being bigger, stronger, faster esc. That's so strange. I feel bad for the dogs that end up with people like that.


Owning a pit bull will force your to cross paths with some of the crazier people on this planet. Be prepared to be at times shunned, ridiculed, feared, taunted, threatened, offered money to breed, begged for puppies etc etc etc...just...be prepared for it...it may not happen often depending on where you are but it will happen.

a few other tips


Never EVER leave your pit unattended in any public situation. They are stolen often and easily. 

www.stopbsl.com keep yourself appraised of bsl updates...if its coming to a town near you it would be best to have at least some early warning...



xoxluvablexox said:


> Aww. Such a cutie.


Shes my lovey.  thanks..

and she does get along with one extremely hyperactive Rat Terrier..

I think it depends with a small dog...if they are a very fearful small dog I wouldn't recommend a pit....


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## mylittlebecky (May 27, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> So I need some stories of pits with small dogs to help me.


see below... BUT i never ever, ever leave them alone together. ever, ever. they are in love (the first two-the third is only in love with me) and they play and play and play. roxy will lay down on her back and let dafne chew/shake her feet it is quite adorable. 

with two terriers, you have to know when to say enough (especially very different sized terriers and especially with two female terriers). i can tell when it might be a little over the line and we take a break- but that's terriers i don't know if it's different with poodles. with balls and squirrells we have to be careful because the lines can get a little blurry, it's all about what you're willing to do and willing to manage. i run them separately and train them separately.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

pugmom said:


> Small dogs as in 2 pugs and a boston?....LOL


Lol. They all get along good? 



Spicy1_VV said:


> No they can show aggression at any age, some start much younger then 2yrs and others are 3 or 4yrs (or older of course). Typically speaking many might start showing at that time because it is around the age of maturity. Where as a pups mature temperament isn't known yet.


Oh okay. That's what I read, that the temperament in pits doesn't show up around two because that's when they mature and would start showing signs of being DA. 




> I'd go with an older dog who is good around other dogs. The main concern would be a fight to happen even if the other dog isn't DA. So you always want to supervise them.


Yeah I've been thinking about it a lot. I'm thinking at least for my first PB I'm going to get an older dog. I'm still not sure though. Getting a puppy is just so tempting. 




> A pup may or may not. It could grow up with your dog and be great or it might not work well. Even if you get an older dog your dogs could one day get upset with each other so to speak. Like you mentioned.


Yeah I guess it's just one of those things were I have to hope for the best but be prepared if things don't work out the way I want them to. If it comes down to it and I have to keep them seperate then that's just how it's gonna have to be. 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> dog aggression....the bat eared crazy lady in the photo is _violently_ dog aggressive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I'll def be getting one of those. I've read that when a fight happens though, it's so quick. So I've been reading about the best ways to break up a fight, which I hope I never have to do, just incase I don't have time to get to the breakstick. 




> b. Never leave your pit unsupervised with other dogs. Separate and contain them when you leave. If you crate then crate them in separate rooms with closed doors between them.
> 
> c. If your pit gets into it with another dog once...they are more likely to do it again...making dog parks not the best idea...if your dog gets in a fight at the DP then they may come home and go for your other dog simply because they are all hyped about the first fight.


I don't think I'm ever going to go to a DP when there are dogs there lol. I wouldn't trust it. Even if my dog wasn't DA I don't know how other dogs are going to be acting. 



> d. Don't leave high value items laying around. toys, chews etc only with supervision or while completely separated.
> 
> e. make sure to spend one on one time with each dog. you yourself can be viewed as a high value resource..so make sure they know you are not being withheld from them.


Aw ofcourse I wouldn't want any of my dogs to get jealous and feel unloved. 



> How is your current dog with other dogs?


He's usually fine with other dogs. He's territorial. A puppy tried walking into the house and he growled at it and another puppy that was a little bit bigger then him was jumping at him and trying to play and he flipped out and started growling and showing his teeth. That was the only time I've ever seen him like that with other dogs though. He pretty much only gives warnings and that's only ever been with puppies. 





> Owning a pit bull will force your to cross paths with some of the crazier people on this planet. Be prepared to be at times shunned, ridiculed, feared, taunted, threatened, offered money to breed, begged for puppies etc etc etc...just...be prepared for it...it may not happen often depending on where you are but it will happen.
> 
> a few other tips
> 
> ...


The joys of owning a PB lol. I'll try to be prepared. I'll have to learn to not get mad at every idiot who has something to say. 
I was just reading about how someone had their pit stolen right out of it's crate in their house. I can't believe how crazy some people can be to just go into someones house. They walked right pass a couple other pits just to get the one because it was about to go into heat.  Poor dog. 
I'm planning on moving to NC soon and I think that has to be my biggest fear. My sister had her brindle pit stolen and she thinks it was the guy living next door. He litterally came over to her and started talking about how he fights dogs. Then her dog went missing. He was such a sweet beautiful dog. It makes me so mad . Well anyways she lives in NC and I think there's a lot of fighting down there.



> Shes my lovey.  thanks..
> 
> and she does get along with one extremely hyperactive Rat Terrier..
> 
> I think it depends with a small dog...if they are a very fearful small dog I wouldn't recommend a pit....


Pepper's not fearful. I think he's submissive Whenever I go over to pick him up or anything he always rolls over onto his back. Then again I think he just likes getting his belly rubbed lol. 



mylittlebecky said:


> see below... BUT i never ever, ever leave them alone together. ever, ever. they are in love (the first two-the third is only in love with me) and they play and play and play. roxy will lay down on her back and let dafne chew/shake her feet it is quite adorable.


Haha that's cute. She's probably her favorite chew toy. 



> with two terriers, you have to know when to say enough (especially very different sized terriers and especially with two female terriers). i can tell when it might be a little over the line and we take a break- but that's terriers i don't know if it's different with poodles. with balls and squirrells we have to be careful because the lines can get a little blurry, it's all about what you're willing to do and willing to manage. i run them separately and train them separately.


Pepper is really high energy. So if anything I think he just might annoy the hell out of another dog.


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

This is all very interesting, so I have another question for you bully people. Just out of curiosity, what is it that attracts people to pit bulls? Because it seems like an awful lot of work, keeping them separated, always watching for aggression, being ready to break up a fight (and having special tools at the ready), and dealing with thugs wanting to steal your dog? 

People say they are loving and wonderful pets, but so are my dogs, I am madly enthusastic about what incredible wonderful dogs eskies are (though I don't recommend them for everyone, and I wouldn't want them to get popular anyway because that's never good for the breed), and they don't come with all that other baggage. 

What is it about pit bulls that makes you want to put yourself through so much trouble to have one?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I can only speak for my self but my reasons are


1. They are great with kids
2. Awesome personality
3. I like there look...short coat/low maintenance/ athletic/cute ears...etc...
4. Medium size..not too big/not too small 
5. Intelligence
6. great at doggie sports
7. Energy level...can go go go outside but also can be a lazy bum inside and snuggle all day


I will add more as I think of them...thats what I have now... (Before my coffee)


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## Sit_Stay (Sep 7, 2008)

I would love to have a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. They don't seem as popular as many of the other bully breeds. Is there a reason for this? I like their shorter stocky appearance as well as their reputation as the nanny dog.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> What is it about pit bulls that makes you want to put yourself through so much trouble to have one?



That's actually a complicated question for me lol..



There is no dog IMO that matches the intensity of a pit bull in any way. They throw every fiber of their being into what they do. 

I just smiled at Bolo for no reason and told her she was a good girl for no reason. She immediately did a backflip off the bed, ran up and down the stairs for a few minutes and is now dancing in wild circles around the room picking up her toy and tossing it in the air....simply because I smiled at her and said Bolo you are a good girl. 

I've seen that dog get happy about something and start racing around at top speed with such wild reckless joy that she forgot the house was there, ran smack into it and knocked herself on the ground...stood up...shook herself off and did it again...including the knocking herself over bit...

when we train she has the demenor of the kind of cowboy soldier you see in movies all "WOOOO BABY I KNOCKED THAT ONE RIGHT OUT YEAH MAMA'S GETTING JERKY TONIGHT!" every muscle is so tense she shivers, attention riveted on what she is attempting to accomplish and yet she retains this humerous element about it...like breaking out the big floppy tongued bully smile at odd moments...

When she is faced with a strange dog...and she has that reaction that she can't control and knows I don't like...she will stick her head between my legs or bury her face on me shaking and whining..trying to erase the other dog from view so she can be good and get to play..she doesn't want to do what I don't want her to do...successful encounters with other dogs leave her panting like she just got done running a marathon because its a monumental effort for her to control that urge...but she does...because I asked her to..it just took me a long time to figure out how to make her understand what I was asking of her..

Her mama instincts are just as intense...she..a sterilized dog...lactates when presented with an unhappy baby mammal of pretty much any species...when my son was newborn..sometimes I would lay him on the floor for tummytime..twist round t grab the wipes or whatever and turn back to find her trying to encourage him to nurse...she has adopted and raised several orphan kittens...

She also saved my son's life. he had been home for one month. I fed him his bottle and put him down for a nap. I grabbed the baby monitor and dashed for the bathroom. bolo was snoozing in the hall at that point..as I was leisurely washing my hands and contemplating a shower Bolo burst into the bathroom in a frenzy of whining, biting on my pants leg and trying to drag me out of the room. this was really unusual behavior for her so I followed her mad dash which led to her kicking and pounding on the baby's room door. I went in to find my son had spit up through both his nose and mouth and was blue in the face..not breathing. I hadn't heard a thing on the monitor... and if she hadn't came and got me...I would have taken a nice shower and come back to find a dead son. For that...there is pretty much not a damn thing in my power I wouldn't do for her...

but even without that one thing...all the rest applies...plus a lot more...

my childhood companion and comforter...was a pit bull...

if I was a dog I would be a pit. see Inga's thread on why we choose the breeds we do..

yeah...that was a complicated question...lol...and it took an hour to try and concisely answer...and bolo is still spinning in circles like a crazy thing lol...I think I will go take her for a walk...



Sit_Stay said:


> I would love to have a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. They don't seem as popular as many of the other bully breeds. Is there a reason for this? I like their shorter stocky appearance as well as their reputation as the nanny dog.


I don't know if they are actually less popular...many people think SBT are APBT..because they simply don't know...so you may hear about the actions of an SBT but they may be contributed to an APBT...course that's only one scenario....


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't have a Pit but my Abs have some similar traits and my older AB Kramer was left alone like many time in the kitchen with me home with the Frenchie. He had always been a gentle big boy with all dogs large and small except for today he went after the little one. He had him pinned in his mouth when I came around the corned on the floor, I don't know what led up to it but I do know when I am at home they are not alone in the same room together anymore. The rule was they were never left alone when I was not at home but now seeing he could of been killed so easy its an anytime rule.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

> What is it about pit bulls that makes you want to put yourself through so much trouble to have one?



Well I can only speak from my point of few but I have been raised around nothing but APBT's from the time I was born well we had had a husky and cockerspaniel and a GSD at one time or another but there was always atleast 1 APBT in our home at all times. The APBT's in our family were always like having a nanny around we could ride them and use them as pillows to take a nap with and when outside playing they were always right with us on guard protecting us. they were the best dress up barbie dolls I ever had lol they let me do what ever I wanted to them and just kept that famous bully smile the whole time! None of the other breeds we owned would do all that they just didn't want to be messed with I guess but I'm not saying the above breeds are all like that just ours. Anyhow I will never own any other breed of dog to me their personality and willingness to make us happy in unmatched!!


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

Because of the media and thier percieved reputation, I think this breed takes more responsibility to own than most...although...I think if ALL dog owners of any breed took the precautions that experienced "bulldog owners" take, we would all benefit. I definitley do not think these dogs are for everybody own. They absolutely are not the dogs that just anyone should breed.

The draw for me is the build, strength and drive coupled with the beauty, gentleness and calmness. It is a very wierd combination of seemingly contradicting traits that makes them a challenge and joy at the same time. They are escape artists AND couch potatoes as an example.

My mantra has always been that it is MY DUTY to protect Diesel from getting into any trouble...ie bad circumstances. He is not here to protect me; in fact, the opposite is true. I am here to protect him...Bulldogs don't get a second chance if they make a mistake. Just the way it is...


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

What ideas would you (Pitbull owners) have for solving the problems related with the breed? The problems I am referring to are over population, dogs in the wrong hands, bites/attacks involving the breed, public perception. I think we could all agree that it has gotten to be an epidemic. Pitbulls are flooding the shelters all across the states, they are more difficult to place because many people fear or even hate them. We read about attacks/bites on a very regular basis. Even with all the negative media attention many owners still allow their dogs to roam or don't protect their dogs enough from escape. Breeders are not careful about who they place their pups with and they end up in horrible homes that add to the negative statistics. Many owners that truly love their dogs spout trash about people that do not understand their breed, fear their breed or have had a bad enough experience with the breed to outright hate them. Rather then coming up with any plan or reasonable input for a solution to the real problem that exists fingers are pointed and insults are flung. I know that there are many great Pitbull owners on this board and elsewhere that fight this in an educated and morally responsible way. Thanks for that. It is appreciated and in my opinion makes a much greater positive impact. Not enough is done however, either by Pitbull owners or other breed owners that understand the challenges that they face. So, I wonder. What ideas does everyone have to solve this? BSL? Restrictions? Mandatory spay/neuter? How do you feel about it only for Pitbulls? Dangerous dogs? Give me your thoughts, please. 
Zim, thanks for starting this thread. I think it is a great idea to give people a place to ask those tough questions and have some really good Pitbull owners at the ready to answer them.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

BarclaysMom said:


> What is it about pit bulls that makes you want to put yourself through so much trouble to have one?


How could you not want to own this face?


I wanted a dog that could "protect" me if necessary. I know bad reason to want a dog, but I wanted a pet, and my fiancé went out of town a lot back then. We got Carter because he looked very Pittie like and would scare people off if they came near. After all the issues I had with him, I didn't want another Pit Bull type dog honestly. I went in, after I put down Carter, looking for a Doberman or Boxer. When the shelter found out I liked Pit Bulls, they matched me with Nubs. I didn't want a "Mean, nasty" Pit Bull. I had read about how great the breed was, but I wasn't sure.

After meeting Nubs, it was instant love. I had already dealt with DA, HA, SA, anything you could think of, so for me, it wasn't anything big to have a dog that could have DA. I had already put a dog down for HA, so I knew I could deal with that. And SA didn't seem to be an issue with Nubs, which is the one thing I couldn't handle at all.

I wanted a dog that I could work with. I wanted a dog that would love everyone, that I could do CGC and TDI with maybe even SAR. Yet a dog that if someone didn't know wouldn't dare come near. Nubs was that. I love educating people about the breed, and as for having Nubs stolen, thats what mace and a house alarm is for. 

After owning Nubs, I want another APBT. They are addicting, the only issue I am debating with is I'm not sure I want to deal with always watching out for DA to come around. So it is something that right now I'm not ready, but in the near future, maybe


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Inga said:


> What ideas would you (Pitbull owners) have for solving the problems related with the breed? The problems I am referring to are over population, dogs in the wrong hands, bites/attacks involving the breed, public perception.


For most of these problems, I would like to see solutions placed throughout all breeds. I know a lot of people (Not you Inga, just 'general' people) feel that other breeds aren't deserving of any kind of restriction or regulation because they more or less...haven't racked up enough bite/attack incidents. To me, this is a _very_ poor reason to appose something. Preventatives should be put in place to prevent this problem from happening again (as history has show us, it will) NOT enacted after the fact when things have already gotten out of control. 

So, with that in mind I'll start with bites and attacks. I don't so much blame the media for the crazy statistics were are now seeing but rather, a general misunderstanding of what a pit bull is. Or for that matter, the use of 'pit bull' at all. When used in the news or in casual conversation, people throw around the term pit bull as a very general description of any stocky/short haired animal. The problem with this is that the effect is not quite so general, as a few specific breeds really are the one ones bearing the brunt of the lash back for all the attacks. True APBTs for example, are not as common as everyone perceives them to be. A lot of what you see on the streets aggressive and out of control are bully mixes. I mean, my area is really really heavy in the whole 'tough dog' thing. Probably 70% of the dogs we get at the shelter are 'pit bulls' but I don't think I've ever looked at one and said without a doubt "That's an (pure) APBT". My point being...there aren't as many APBT attacks as people are often lead to believe. Misidentifying a lot of dogs/breeds has led to this kind of reputation though.

As for educating? I can only think to do it one person at a time. There really isn't a way to reach large groups of people without some kind of third party organization (BadRap, for example) so a lot of us are kind of left to our own devices. I think it's important to remember that each positive meeting with a person does A LOT for the breed or breeds as a whole. People tend to share things like that, maybe with their friends, kids, whatever. But it's not as insignificant as it may feel in that moment. You don't know who you're talking to after all, it may very well be someone who's never had a positive pit bull experience thus far and in fact I heard of/experienced many such occasions. I even of a lady who a service dog and was terrified of pits until she had one or two good experiences. She now as a service APBT all her own. And Inga, I know you've had some of your Rotties used as Therapy Dogs, right? I can't imagine what it's like for those people to experience something (such as time with a dog) so positive when they are possibly in a less then positive time of their lives. Those kind of actions are monumental in helping give good light to troubled breeds. Good people just have to keep doing what their doing, reaching out, teaching, etc. and it will make an impact.

When it comes to preventing bites and attacks, this is specifically where I think things need to really turn breed wide. I honestly think people are given far far too many chances with their dogs. You get like two or three incidents before your dog is taken away and I think that is much of what is causing the problem. People are being irresponsible and feeling no punishment past a slap on the wrist. If you have a dangerous dog that isn't being contained properly then I believe it needs to be taken by AC and dealt with (HOW it's dealt with is a whole other topic). I just don't have a lot of sympathy for these people anymore. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that a dog prone to biting needs to be contained and if you can't do it then you shouldn't own that animal - bottom line. I understand mistakes happen and everyone has a pet escape in their lifetime but with one that bites or attacks? There isn't room for error. You can't brush it off because there is so much more at stake. Someone could have and may already be hurt due to your negligence. So stricter penalties would be my first step (and actually, have been enacted in some cases, I think) - breed wide. Targeting specific dogs isn't working and it won't work. We need to stop focusing on the dogs and turn our attention on the people that allow them to become out of control to the extent that they harm another person.

Overpopulation is another issue that effects all dogs. I'll be honest, I'm not yet sure how to fix this one. There are always going to be bad breeders out there and I don't really think there is a way to totally end that. Even if we up the criteria for what can and can't be called a 'breeder' you can't force someone to sell to only a select few. You'll still have puppies ending up in the wrong hands. I think at this point the main thing to continue with is the road to better education. I know many on this board have changed their minds about what makes a good breeder just through talking and reading what others have to say. I also know there are a lot of people out there working to show these same lessons to the general public. To me, these kinds of solutions seem more favorable then any kind of added regulation. I just haven't seen anyone be real successful with that type of attack plan yet. New laws get put into place and nothing changes because either they aren't being enforced or they are targeting the wrong people. I think we need to be aware of and remember that most of the owners out there being irresponsible are doing so at the expense of several laws (proper care, shelter, etc) already in place. It's not reasonable to assume that adding a NEW law will suddenly shape them up..._especially_ when it's been made pretty clear through past practices alone that they are really only going to get caught if enough people happen to send in a report, and that doesn't happen often.

I don't really think overpopulation can ever be eradicated as a whole. It's a sad truth but one I think people need to kind of realize, at least on some level. I'm a very firm believer in education and it's powers though. I've seen people totally change their minds after spending just a few moments among people who aren't feeding their fear over Pits, bites, bybreeding, etc. It just takes the right teacher (ex. NOT someone who is going to let their passion color how things are presented and thus end up yelling) and a bit of time spent. People don't need to be degraded or made to feel bad in order to achieve these things, either. When you are calm, understanding, knowledgeable, etc. and you reach out to people...you do a lot more then you realize. 

That's about it and I'm not really sure I even answered your question, Inga. I think it's definitely a battle to be had - and a LONG one at that. Legislatures are often looking for the fast way to get something done and usually end up only putting a band-aid over the situation. These kinds of problems need time spent not a swift banning of all dogs stocky and muscled.

ETA: Wow, sorry for that wall of text. I don't think I even said much - but I tend to ramble some so...lol, feel free to disregard all the fluff.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

BarclaysMom said:


> This is all very interesting, so I have another question for you bully people. Just out of curiosity, what is it that attracts people to pit bulls? Because it seems like an awful lot of work, keeping them separated, always watching for aggression, being ready to break up a fight (and having special tools at the ready), and dealing with thugs wanting to steal your dog?


Keeping them separated thats not a lot of work and isn't breed specific. I'd keep many breeds separated.

Always watching out for aggression, I'm not always watching out for it, just ready if it should present itself but I do see my dogs body language. I don't think that is a lot of work, whatever breed its not trouble for me to read them. 

Knowing how to break up a fight, well thats old hat. Special tools? Like a breaking stick thats just 2nd nature to have around. Not a big issue. 

Theft is serious, no one wants to loose their dog to theft. That is what a gun or large wooden spoon is for....lol Although it isn't as if we have to protect them from theft on a daily basis, being on guard or in constant fear. It can happen and while not always it is can often be bad people. I'm worried of theft for many breeds, not just Pits. Lots of dogs are snatched from cars or yards, sometimes even homes. 

What attracts me is comfort, looks and temperament.

I've been around them since I was a child, I don't have to decide if I like or want an APBT. They just are what I like, no thought to it, my passion and what I'm most comfortable with. I've learned from experience and research, knowing the breed well. I know not only my dogs pedigrees but many other dogs, know the different bloodlines and a lot of what to expect depending on how the dog is bred with exceptions of course. Other breeds I research, get some time in with them but still feel "lost" overall. Its a totally different thing.

I like the athletic look, the short smooth coat, lean muscular build. Expressive face and eyes. Size is perfect for me, medium sized, can't go wrong. They can easily fit on my lap or be carried around. In fact just shortly ago one was climbing up my DH and perching on his shoulder. They are so affectionate and loving with a great compact size.

A lot of what Zim said is right on the money, with dogs being happy and goofy, gentle and maternal. They are also an extremely versatile dog, their main original purpose is outlawed, but they are so great at many other sports/task that it isn't a big issue. They are usually willing to please for nothing but a good dog or praise. I rarely use treats as an incentive. They also learn quick, most of them anyway, so it makes them fun and easy to work with. I can work with other breeds, I don't have a problem with it, just takes more time or patience with some. 



> People say they are loving and wonderful pets, but so are my dogs, I am madly enthusastic about what incredible wonderful dogs eskies are (though I don't recommend them for everyone, and I wouldn't want them to get popular anyway because that's never good for the breed), and they don't come with all that other baggage.


Oh yes of course many dogs are loving and certainly wonderful pets. Different strokes for different folks. 

There are many breeds that have drawbacks or negatives for one person but are not a bother for another. I can think of several breeds that are work to keep. Some require a lot of socialization, others a lot of grooming, some have a lot of health problems (even from a good breeder they might), not be as easy to train, some are too large or too small for certain peoples wants. Some are very defensive/protective and might be seen as a liability to some. Some require high fences with hot wire recommended. Some have a high prey drive wanting to sniff and hunt down whatever they can smell and dig up your yard. Others are very high energy requiring a lot of excercise and mental stimulation. Some breeds also have more then one of these "drawbacks", although they are not too much work for some owners nor are they drawbacks to every owner.



> What is it about pit bulls that makes you want to put yourself through so much trouble to have one?


The reasons listed above is why I love them. However I don't put myself through so much trouble to have them at all.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

There have been many tests that result in Chihuahuas and Dachsunds as being the most likely dog to bite a human. APBTs/ASTs are way down the list biters. That being said, common sense tells you that being bit by a Chihuahua is a completely different event than being bit by an APBT (or any other large breed-Chow, GSD, Lab< ect). I am never a big fan of Big Government legislating behaviors/freedoms...but...at some point something needs to be done.

The biggest problem is BackYardBreeders. They breed solely for the LOVE OF MONEY!!! They don't care about improving or preserving the breed. They don't care about health/temperment testing. They don't care about proper placement of any pup. They only care about the Almighty Dollar. All this BYB breeding (of any breed) is the MAIN CAUSE of overpopulation in the USA. So what do you do? Who decides who should and should not breed? Who decides on the number of litters that are viable? How do you legislate and then enforce new rules? Do you charge a hefty breeding fee? Do you have mandatory licensing fees that are steep? How do you say who should and should not get a particular breed?

I think it is very hard to change peoples' behaviors. It would be up to the legitimate breeders to be more selective on who gets pups (especially this breed). I know that there will always be someone willing to circumvent the process, but you have to start somewhere. Too many animals are being PTS (PutToSleep) every day and a large majority of them are purebred dogs that were purchased by someone not ready to make the needed commitment to properly raise and care for a pet. For that matter, there are plenty out there that can't raise their children properly and still have more on the way. If breeders followed the Code of Ethics for Breeding, there would be a marked decrease in litters. 

Like I alluded to earlier, I am not a big fan of governmental controls...but if that is what it takes to get this problem under control...so be it. 

1) All dog breeders need to be registered? Every litter must be documented and catalogued. They must adhere to strict litter limitations and health standards. They should have a no questions asked 90 days return policy for any purchased pups. All pups must be fixed prior to sexual maturity and the new owner must abide by those terms. 

The Breeders also need to be licensed much like a plumber, electrician, ect. and have a continuing educational requirements.

2) Dog owners need to be fully responsible for any act carried out by thier animal. Just like a car, you need to license your dog yearly with a certificate of good health from your VET each and every year.

That is only the first two steps...it is tiring thinking of all this stuff...frustrating that people can not use some common sense and solve these problems on an individual basis.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

chuckle! Dakota you pretty much said everything I feel as well. I think often times good hearted Pitbull/Rottie/GSD owners take offense to the attacks (hard not to) and they let their passion spill out in a less then convincing manner to those with the fear of hatred of their breed. This unfortunately only fuels their hatred or fear of everything Pitbull. As far as misidentifying breed you are so right. My dogs are so often referred to as Pitbulls and when corrected the person might say "well, Bully breed then". Rotties are not a bully breed and they are not dog fighting dogs. People lump many breeds all into one category. "scary dogs" 
I too struggle for the right answer and hope others will chime in with their thoughts on this. I do feel that there needs to be something done. There IS A PROBLEM and it is a big one. How to deal with it fairly is the question.

and to answer your question Dakota. Yes, my dogs have worked as Therapy dogs for years. I think it wonderful to help people when they need a shoulder to cry on or a hug from someone that doesn't judge. That just happens to be a great job for a dog and my dogs have been very good at that job. I hope more people will start doing that with their dogs as well no matter the breed.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Inga said:


> What ideas would you (Pitbull owners) have for solving the problems related with the breed? The problems I am referring to are
> 
> over population


I think this problem in regards to the breed will solve itself if the other three you mentioned get addressed in a competent manner.



Inga said:


> dogs in the wrong hands


IMO...this is the biggie...the one that affects the whole picture the strongest....and I think it requires a multi pronged approach.

A. The Lawdogs USA Program is an example of the first *prong*.
Creating more programs like this...getting more and more pit bulls into police detection and SAR and similar venues of dog work puts the breed on the opposite side of the legal fence..takes away some of the bad boy glam of owning a pit. If the APBT image is transformed into that of a cop's dog...the criminal element I think..based on my experiences with said element..would be less than enthusiastic about being seen with and identified with..a cop's dog...

B. Dogfighting. This is a hard one. Its a thing that has been around for a long long time and there are some Pit people who believe if the dogs are not allowed to fight...to test themselves to that level...then the true APBT will be lost. So there needs to be an adequate replacement for that level of testing these dogs that doesn't involve bloodshed and is legal....There are people working on this. Hopefully Donovan will stop by the thread and elaborate better than I can. 

That would take care of those who fight dogs with the belief that it betters the breed. I think given the chance to 'game test' their dogs legally and safely they would take it.

As for the rest....

A. Educating the young. Whenever a swaggering little boy hollers out to me on the street "Hey Yo..is dat a pit?"...I make apoint to talk to them. To offer them an opportunity to interact with the girls, showing them things like weight pull pics and offering to teach them how to train and care for a pit bull. Their eyes get wide and excited and they say "Wow a THOUSAND pounds!" and some scoff at me but others take up my invitation and come visit. If there would be more of this sort of thing...it would make a serious impact on the future...Im working on a magazine(dogwoman if you see this send me the thing again I just got it yesterday and can't open it for some reason..Ill pm you my new email...yahoo sucks.) to this effect that can be dropped off at record stores and similar places...


B. Continue to take a hard stance against dogfighting. Make it clear that it is entirely unacceptable and won't be tolerated. 




Inga said:


> bites/attacks involving the breed


I really think offering more general dog related education can help with this. Teach people how to properly handle things like dogs and kids together, how to deal with an aggressive dog, how to deal with a dog that is menacing you etc etc.

As for legal response..

I think a tiered non breed specific dangerous dog list has potential to curtail dog bites period.

Have two lists. 

Attacks on Animals and Attacks on Humans.

Each list would have levels with escalating fines and punishments for each infraction. Make the fines for offences high enough that the whole thing pays for itself. 



Inga said:


> public perception



I think this one ties very closely with the rest. If the others are addressed competently...this one will start to disappear..

APBT owners can help it along by keeping their dogs out of bad situations yet remaining visible. The more APBT people that hide their good dogs away the less chances there are for others to see the good side of the breed.




Inga said:


> Zim, thanks for starting this thread. I think it is a great idea to give people a place to ask those tough questions and have some really good Pitbull owners at the ready to answer them.


No sweat...4dogs3cats gave me the idea...



xoxluvablexox said:


> .
> I'm planning on moving to NC soon and I think that has to be my biggest fear. My sister had her brindle pit stolen and she thinks it was the guy living next door. He litterally came over to her and started talking about how he fights dogs. Then her dog went missing. He was such a sweet beautiful dog. It makes me so mad . Well anyways she lives in NC and I think *there's a lot of fighting down there.*


yep...guess where I live...


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## Ateenta (Sep 11, 2007)

I have a few questions about Pit Bulls myself, although I don't currently own one, and I never have, although several people I know including friends and neighbors have them.

*1. So basically from what I have read/heard etc. you can NEVER trust a Pit Bull around other dogs if you(the owner/human) aren't there, and you can't really trust them with other dogs even if you are there?*
*2. So far as them getting along with other animals(cats, goats, horses etc.), can they ever get along with them?* 
*3. Do PBs just go right to the "kill" when they DO bite people, or do they have what I call "warning bites" like a lot of other breeds? *By this I mean that I've known dogs that would bite when you took away a toy, or when you pulled an ear too hard, etc. But it was always what I see as a "warning bite" a bite that says "get away and don't do that again". Not a bite that says "you did that and now I am going to kill you so you can't do it again" I don't think ANY biting is appropriate...but I can see a difference between bite types...I guess my question could be transferred into something like "Do Pit Bulls have rage control with humans?"
*4. How come a lot of the PB owners I see are people that kind of have a "hick mentality"(for lack of a nicer way to put it) and are the type of people that cart the dogs around loose in the backs of pickup trucks, let the dog run loose around the neighborhood, don't care if their dog comes home with someones pet hanging out of its jaws, keep the dog outside ALL the time, etc. etc.? *I can say that most of the people around where I live(I can't speak about other places) who have that attitude do have Pit Bulls more than other breeds.

After asking those questions I might come off as disliking PBs...I don't, at least not more than any other dog breed I deem naturally more dangerous than most. I've met tons of great Pit Bulls. In fact I've never has the displeasure of meeting a truly human-aggressive one. My neighbor had and elderly Pit Bull/American Bulldog cross named Cato when we first moved to our property. He was sweet as anything to humans and ignored all other animals except dogs...dogs he WOULD attack if they weren't submissive, and he would kill small dogs. But I loved him for one of his peculiar habits. Every day he would make his "rounds" in which he wandered around inspecting his owners property, our property and several other neighbors lands. And I mean this quite literally. He inspected all the borders and fence lines, and sniffed around all the houses just to make sure everything was normal and in its proper place. I followed him one time when he did this and he ignored me almost totally throughout the entire walk. Sadly in his old age he went blind, and one day when his owners weren't home he fell into their pool and drowned. Another Pit Bull I know belongs to my friend. She lives in a city behind a four foot fence that she USUALLY doesn't jump. She is protective and territorial with humans she doesn't know, but once she knows you she doesn't forget you...even when her owners aren't there to say the human is okay. Even when my friend isn't there at her house I can walk into the yard and say "Hey Amy, its okay" and she'll come up and sniff me, then go get her tennis ball and try and get me to chase her around the yard. Amy probably saved my friends 10 year old little sister Sarah from at least some emotional damage, probably worse...two older teenage boys were teasing Sarah, outside of the front yard, and saying very mean and rude things to her...I won't go in depth. One even went so far as to grab Sarahs arm. Amy came sailing over the fence snarling and growling, ready to tear off whatever she got ahold of first. The two teenage boys ran away and Sarah had the sense to grab Amy's collar before she actually bit anyone... The point of these two stories is just to say I realize Pit Bulls aren't bad dogs, and my questions honestly stem from curiosity.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Ateenta said:


> 1. So basically from what I have read/heard etc. you can NEVER trust a Pit Bull around other dogs if you(the owner/human) aren't there, and you can't really trust them with other dogs even if you are there?


No...it depends on the particular dogs. Only a few are truly DA. The rest have behavioral issues stemming from enviroment and general state of being. In the presence of my other dog I trust Bolo will not hurt her while I am there. DA like Bolo's is such that she can be densensitized to particular dogs but any dog she has not run through that process with is at risk. Its different for other dogs.

I still don't leave them alone together simply because I feel like preventative measures are the best and its hard to be sure when you can't really monitor interactions when you aren't there 



Ateenta said:


> 2. So far as them getting along with other animals(cats, goats, horses etc.), can they ever get along with them?


also individual to the particular dog...like any other breed pits have a wide range of temperment types.....there is variation within the breed...especially since you consider many are bred for performance and thus there is variation within the breed as in terms of physical appearance as well.

I own two pits bulls and currently have six foster kitties and one personal cat who my brindle dog nursed while she was a kitten. 



Ateenta said:


> 3. Do PBs just go right to the "kill" when they DO bite people, or do they have what I call "warning bites" like a lot of other breeds? By this I mean that I've known dogs that would bite when you took away a toy, or when you pulled an ear too hard, etc. But it was always what I see as a "warning bite" a bite that says "get away and don't do that again". Not a bite that says "you did that and now I am going to kill you so you can't do it again" I don't think ANY biting is appropriate...but I can see a difference between bite types...I guess my question could be transferred into something like "Do Pit Bulls have rage control with humans?"


APBT are bred to grip hard and not let go and shake. Many don't show aggressive displays before attacking. The some of the signs are more subtle. 

But again variation. what I just stated was the _desired_ instincts in the breed in the beginning. Some will be as I said...some won't and some will fall somewhere in between.



Ateenta said:


> 4. How come a lot of the PB owners I see are people that kind of have a "hick mentality"(for lack of a nicer way to put it) and are the type of people that cart the dogs around loose in the backs of pickup trucks, let the dog run loose around the neighborhood, don't care if their dog comes home with someones pet hanging out of its jaws, keep the dog outside ALL the time, etc. etc.? I can say that most of the people around where I live(I can't speak about other places) who have that attitude do have Pit Bulls more than other breeds.



Its *thugs* here. Gold Chains, baggy pants etc etc...

People like me have a bad habit of hiding in the bushes so to speak...Im trying to fix that...I take good care of my girls and I don't let them cause harm...though my white dog Vivi pees and rolls on her back or has a complete panicked urge to flee when she feels threatened...which is alot...

Responsible owners sort of get grouped in with the others...we get a lot of crap for owning the dogs we do..you get sick of that and feel discouraged about bringing your well behaved dog around people because you half expect people to demean and dismiss all the hard work you put into making this dog well behaved and adjusted...its...disheartening...

(not saying you are doing that just expressing my opinion on your question)


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Ateenta said:


> *1. So basically from what I have read/heard etc. you can NEVER trust a Pit Bull around other dogs if you(the owner/human) aren't there, and you can't really trust them with other dogs even if you are there?*


You never should take the risk. Any dog no matter breed can have a disagreement with another dog sometime in their life. With an APBT this type of thing can escalate into a serious fight and without a human there to stop it can end in serious injuries/death. There are many dogs I wouldn't leave together alone anyway, for this reason, even if it wouldn't be serious injuries/death I'd rather not come home to dogs that have had a fight. Certain breeds I will leave alone without thinking there is going to be a real fight. 

I trust them when I am there, but again they are dogs like others they might start to get annoyed, get upset over something, ect. I've owned mostly APBTs but have had other breeds and been around other breeds and it isn't as if all dogs except APBTs are getting along for every single day of their life. You can't trust what any dog will do 100%. Many APBTs are tolerant or social with other dogs, if you know your dog well then you can trust them to play nice. 



> *2. So far as them getting along with other animals(cats, goats, horses etc.), can they ever get along with them?*


Yes of course. It depends on the individual. Some might also get along with their animal but maybe still chase strange cats. As for mine some get along with cats, share food with cats, even be bossed around or attacked by them. A cat I had lunched a full attack on my friends Pit, we couldn't get her to stop claws dug in his back wildy biting, but he never hurt her. His dam also allowed a kittens to nurse from her. Some of mine will share food with goats, cuddle with them, play games with them you'd have to see it, very cute. Some I co own live with horses just fine, they don't try to attack them or anything, might even go out when its time to feed the horses and they can be by them without problem. Another is also living around several other dogs and horses too. APBTs are not just simply aggressive wanting to kill any other animal. 



> *3. Do PBs just go right to the "kill" when they DO bite people, or do they have what I call "warning bites" like a lot of other breeds? *By this I mean that I've known dogs that would bite when you took away a toy, or when you pulled an ear too hard, etc. But it was always what I see as a "warning bite" a bite that says "get away and don't do that again". Not a bite that says "you did that and now I am going to kill you so you can't do it again" I don't think ANY biting is appropriate...but I can see a difference between bite types...I guess my question could be transferred into something like "Do Pit Bulls have rage control with humans?"


Again it depends on the Pit Bull. I've seen very minor bites from them. Didn't require anything but say a band-aid. So yes of course they do. Some do not even do a warning bite, they growl. Just like anything other dog. Any dog who resource guards say with the food can either attack right out, snap (but not actually bite), growl or "warning bite". It doesn't matter the breed. This is the same with ear pulling, APBTs are generally tolerant but of course not all are stable so I'm sure there would be those who are aggressive towards being pinched and pulled on. In this case it is the same as above, like any breed it depends on that individual. Anything from growling or attacking. I'd say in most cases no matter the breed before a real attack or even a warning bite there as been a growl and maybe even an attempt to get up and get away from the person then they are pushed to the limit of attack. 



> *4.How come a lot of the PB owners I see are people that kind of have a "hick mentality"(for lack of a nicer way to put it) and are the type of people that cart the dogs around loose in the backs of pickup trucks, let the dog run loose around the neighborhood, don't care if their dog comes home with someones pet hanging out of its jaws, keep the dog outside ALL the time, etc. etc.? *I can say that most of the people around where I live(I can't speak about other places) who have that attitude do have Pit Bulls more than other breeds.


Because that is the type of people who are owning them in your area. There really isn't a way to answer exactly why. You are right that you can't speak for other places because what you just described where I live fits many owners of heelers, gsds and labs in my area. More often then not that is what will be running free, sometimes attacking people/animals or acting aggressive. Usually they are outside dogs, I don't have a problem with that but not all are provided shelter or contained, many are farm dogs but don't STAY on the farm. They roam and cause problems. Always in the back of pick ups and worse yet I've seen more then once any of the 3 breeds riding on flat beds, these dogs on turns are hanging on to not slide off. I also dislike that they are thrown in pick ups because when I've gone to the feed store a few would more then likely bite if you came too close or made the wrong move. Usually it is the heeler or gsds who act like that, not that I say no Lab ever bites, but they usually just sit calmly. There is also the possibility of attacking other animals, at one of our farm and ranch stores an unleashed ACD attacked another dog.

There are all types of bad or irresponsible people owning Pits. I suppose its because they are attracted to this breed for a number of wrong reasons.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Theft is serious, no one wants to loose their dog to theft. That is what a gun or large wooden spoon is for....lol Although it isn't as if we have to protect them from theft on a daily basis, being on guard or in constant fear. It can happen and while not always it is can often be bad people. I'm worried of theft for many breeds, not just Pits. Lots of dogs are snatched from cars or yards, sometimes even homes.


teehee...(...fear the spoon...) 




Spicy1_VV said:


> The reasons listed above is why I love them. However I don't put myself through so much trouble to have them at all.


Ya know...it was trouble to me at first...now its just really easy and second nature...


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Ya know...it was trouble to me at first...now its just really easy and second nature...


I just kind of look at it as a 'characteristic' of the breed. That's not really the right word, but more something that simply comes along with owning these dogs. Sort of like all the work it takes to keep a Border Collie happy and occupied - it seems like a lot of work, but for those that love the breed I'm sure it's nothing compared to owning the dogs they like. I don't think Pit owners necessarily 'put themselves through' anything...they just do what they have to in order to make a life with the dogs they love. That's something that should be familiar to anyone with a pet.


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

Just a quick question.

I own 2 dogs, one male & one female. Alot of Pit Bull rescue groups will not adopt dogs into homes with dogs of the same sex. why is that? Seems like if I ever want to adopt a Pit Bull, I'd have to be down to 1 dog


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

KcCrystal said:


> Just a quick question.
> 
> I own 2 dogs, one male & one female. Alot of Pit Bull rescue groups will not adopt dogs into homes with dogs of the same sex. why is that? Seems like if I ever want to adopt a Pit Bull, I'd have to be down to 1 dog


I won't presume to answer for pit bulls, but in general, same-sex aggression among dogs is more likely and more severe than opposite-sex aggression. Especially female/female....yikes! I don't know if rescues should make blanket rules like "absolutely no same-sex adoptions" (they really should make individual decisions), but that's the general reasoning.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KcCrystal said:


> Just a quick question.
> 
> I own 2 dogs, one male & one female. Alot of Pit Bull rescue groups will not adopt dogs into homes with dogs of the same sex. why is that? Seems like if I ever want to adopt a Pit Bull, I'd have to be down to 1 dog


its that..*two dogs are more likely to fight if they are the same sex* things....which _can_ be the case but not nessecarily...

I have two..both girls...one is DA...and they coexist pretty peacefully...personally I think it should be judged individually...but rescues have the right to dictate what kind of adopter they want...


http://pbrc.net/webapp/cgi-bin/orgs_by_state.cgi/7fd9b907b14e16f863974744a1916ec8

Id suggest keep checking this...it changes...


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I have a question.
Can a dog choose what dogs to be DA with?

I got home about half an hour ago and went to the local green,my friend was walking her EBT and Jackrussel,from the moment the JR met Blake he dominated him and its always been that way,he growls and blake runs (in a game kind of way),just an hour ago he was chasing him like jacks chase rabbits when blake could clearly eat him.

Is it a dominace/respect thing?
More importantly do you think blake would ever turn on him? he is like a puppy around him i'll have to video it.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I'd love to see that video. Dominant dogs can be more dominant to some dogs but not care as much about others. They can also be aggressive to some and not others. Some seem not to like specific breeds.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Interesting Spicy,in that case Blake seems not to like his own kind!

I will definetley get the vid,maybe 2morow as i said i'd meet her,its hilarious,blake is petrified of this tiny jackrussel.

Heres them some time ago.....notice the distance between them.haha








Sometimes they are even buddies (when Alfie feels like it,he turns without notice)


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Maybe you should send him here so he doesn't have to worry about Alfie?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Interesting Pooch...

With Bolo I have to choose her companions very very carefully...There are some dogs *I can get her to accept* but she will not accept them on her own. 

She is pretty particular...

Males have to be waaay bigger than her...of Bully, Rottie, or Sled Dog Persuasion, have very dominant yet stable temperments, be intact and not be solid white. Why? I don't know...but all the males she will accept have all those parameters..


Females must be around her size or smaller, have submissive or middleground temperments and not be solid white or intact.


Most dogs she won't accept at all. 

if they fit those parameters there is a chance that with a carefully managed introductory series of joint training session/walks over the course of about a week she will change her mind..

the first day she will be nasty but not hardcore DA trying to hunt them...if she starts with the predatory behaviors I know its a no go and to end it right there...but if the first time she is snappy grumpy bitchy I know it will probably be cool..

or if she knows them since they were puppies...then they are *her* puppies and she is their mom. Puppies meaning birth to about eight months old she will adopt them. 

The males she bullies intensely. She has a *boyfriend*...a big Rottie named Bear that when they play people get scared lol. they are all clacking teeth and snarls....but that's ok..its when Bolo stops snarling but still playfighting that you know to stop it. 

Females she plays chase with and they zoom around and occasionally crash into each other..

its kind of weird...but paying attention to trends makes things easier IMO...like think of all the dogs Blake gets along with...Do they have anything in common? Do they all play with Blake the same way? etc etc...paying attention to that has helped me determine which dogs she is less likely to get aggro with...


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## Shameless (Dec 11, 2008)

Crazy....

I guess I don't get the whole fact of owning a dog that could potentially be a menace to society. Whether it be attacking other dogs or people. 

I don't say this because I don't know about the breed. I say this, because some of the posts on here have admitted they have dogs that can't be trusted if they were loose. The legal ramifications of this alone are enough for me to wonder why you would continue to have these dogs. I guess I don't get it.

I am a dog trainer and I have trained many a pitbull. Some of the things in this whole thread are very concerning. I can understand the value or level that people love their dogs. I truly can understand that. But if I owned a few dogs and I was worried that one would kill another dog when I wasn't around......then I would have to take control of the situation by getting rid of the offender. Dogs are social animals.... if you have a dog that you are worried isn't social enough that it may kill other members of your pack, then I would be seriously concerned. 

I totally understand the mentality of the pitbull owners. I do, I have seen numerous dogs that had a kill mentality but were helped by some training and excersise. But I don't get some of the comments on here by pitbull owners. 

To say a dog at 2 years will develop a kill mentality is crazy. It has been well documented that a dogs behavior in his later years will be developed by the time he is 8 weeks to 20 weeks of age. A well socialized domesticated dog will have no problem with other dogs later in life. 

Obvious exceptions to this rule would be, a bitch in heat and 2 dogs fighting over her, territory infringment, etc. 

This thread could go on for eternity but the thing I find facinating is the fact that pitbull owners....even the ones that are afraid to have their pitbulls around other members of their own pack, still claim they are a great breed of dog. This just baffles me to no end. 

Again, I will say.... I train dogs and have a business doing so... without pitbulls I would probably lose half my business. But at the same time, I am curious to why people are so devote to this breed.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Shameless said:


> Crazy....
> 
> I guess I don't get the whole fact of owning a dog that could potentially be a menace to society. Whether it be attacking other dogs or people.
> 
> ...


 a little visit from the spelling ninja...Pit bull...two words.

The term is DA not Killing mentality....and not every pit bull is DA...there just happens to be quite a few on this board. Pit bulls do turn 2 and develop "a Killing Mentality"..the _CAN_ develop DA

My Isis happens to be very submissive around other dogs...so as long as the introduction is very slow she is ok ...she will only get defensive out of fear if the other dog is all over her....

there are ton of people on my bully forum that have dogs that are not DA and have had no issues with DA



I thing about not leave dog alone together is that any dog can fight..over toys, food, a place on the couch...etc...but when you have a pit bull you have to worry how far that fight is going to escalate because they are genetically superior when it comes to fighting.

But its not just pit bulls that fight and cant be left together...my boston and my pug do not get along anymore....they fight...if I were to leave them alone together...i would come home to one or two very seriously hurt dogs...how is that any different.?...should I get rid of them?..were would they go?....

When I had my dobe and my pug I would never leave them home alone....not because I thought my dobe was going to intentionally hurt my pug...but because if a fight happened for what every reason...there would be not doubt who would win that fight!

But don't think I sit around my house wringing my hands and worrying that my dog is going to start a fight every minute of the day...My APBT interacts w/my all my dogs every day...and my family...my daughter....I just don't leave them all together unsupervised....just like you wouldn't take you dog to the dog park and just drop him/her off and pay no attention what so ever...

There are plenty of DA dogs of every breed....there are quite a few people on this board that have had their dogs attacked by breeds other then bully breeds

and I don't really get what you are saying bout being a menace to society....any dog that is not under its owners control can be a menace, why would you apply that to pit bulls only?.....but as to attacking people?...DA and HA are two different things...a pit bull should not be HA


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

I've loved most pit bulls that I've met. THey've been sweet, playful dogs. They're on my list of future dog possibilities. Can any of you pit bull owners point me in the direction of some good reading material? 
I've had a rhodesian/lab mix in the past that was DA, but she never got ahold of another dog, and I had her as a child, and walked her and she weighed more than I did until I was probably 13. 
I also have a heeler mix, who has insane amounts of energy, and he's mixed with some pointer, so he's a tad stubborn,
Then I've had the doxies, which I believe badly bred doxies are quick to snap, and can be quite vicious. They're also very independent, and it's hard to break the " I do what I want and you watch me" attitude.

I dont' know if any of these dogs I've had would help me experience wise with a pit bull, but they've all been difficult in their own ways, and I've had to approach them with different methods of training, etc. 

So if any of you guys have any resources for me to research the breed in-depth, I'd much appreciate it.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Here are a few places to start.....enjoy


http://www.badrap.org/rescue/
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Fin...pitbull_v4.swf
http://www.pitbullforum.com/index.php?sid=dc3684bddd6480d9bdd5107b222f06f7
http://www.workingpitbull.com/aboutpits.htm


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Cerbies Mom...What specifically are you looking for by way of info?

General stuff...or deep detail?


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

anything and everything, Zim. I kinda just picked Cerb randomly, and the dachshunds were both handed to me, so I wanna really research the next dog that we get. And I think I'd be a good pit bull person, and there need to be more of them out there.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CerbiesMom said:


> anything and everything, Zim. I kinda just picked Cerb randomly, and the dachshunds were both handed to me, so I wanna really research the next dog that we get. And I think I'd be a good pit bull person, and there need to be more of them out there.


Ok..cool...

I will be back in a bit with a list of links and books...got to put my son down for his nap then I can compile the list and post...

there will be graphic content in some of what I am going to post...just leeting you know its there...and its something IMO if one is considering the breed one needs to have a grasp on some of th not so apparent truths about dogfighting.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Shameless said:


> Crazy....
> 
> I guess I don't get the whole fact of owning a dog that could potentially be a menace to society. Whether it be attacking other dogs or people.


And your a dog trainer you say?
You obviously dont get the *fact of owning a dog* at all then because if you did you'd know that any breed can be a menace to society.

Just to add,alot of the questions are from people who currently do not own pit bulls as of yet,hence the thread title.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

http://rayfox6.tripod.com/id28.html
A look at dogfighting from the perspective of a former dogfighter.


http://www.riospitbull.com/
This site has TONS of Pit Bull history and more..


http://www.apbtconformation.com/
The Pit Bull Encyclopedia, In depth discussions on structure, Comparison of the Standards and a whole lotta more...


http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/
http://www.stopbsl.com
http://www.denverkillsdogs.com/index.html
An in depth look at the realities of breed specific legislation.


http://www.gladwell.com/2006/2006_02_06_a_pitbull.html
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/41560-different-sort-pit-bull.html
http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0182.htm
A few things of interest.

http://www.dogpolitics.com/
My favorite doggie blog.


http://www.workingpitbull.com/bullbookmart.html
This is where to buy Pit Bull books


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## Snoppykins (Dec 19, 2008)

I personally feel it is a shame the way Pits are treated. They are like any other dog, treat them wrong or let them go untrainned and you will have a problem dog on your hands.

My oldest friend's brother got a pitbull when I was 11. I was around Boris a lot. Then my family moved 30 minutes away. I still go to go to her house but it was weeks before we would see one another. That meant that Boris grew and by the time I would see him again he was bigger.

Boris owner was a bad one, he hurt him. I saw him throw the dog into the ice box  Boris loved the family but nobody else.

I had gone away for a long peroid and came back. I went up to the fence where Boris was and reached my hand over the fence, not aware of his body laungage. He almost bite my hand off. From then on I had a fear of the dogs!

Being older now I understand that not all Pits are bad. Yet, because of all the bad news and almost losing my hand, when I see a pit I become nervous and I try not to but cant help it.

Still, I will never think ill of the breed, I will think Ill of the bad owners!!!!!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> http://www.workingpitbull.com/bullbookmart.html
> This is where to buy Pit Bull books


Good links. 

But wow do people actually buy those books at those prices.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Shameless said:


> Crazy....


No. Not Crazy. Reality.



Shameless said:


> I guess I don't get the whole fact of owning a dog that could potentially be a menace to society. Whether it be attacking other dogs or people.


No...any dog can potentially be a *menace to society*
Due to their physical power, high drives and in part to the purpose they were bred for over the last one hundred year, The APBT requires a few extra measures to responsibly own...but that applies to quite a few other breeds as well. 



Shameless said:


> I don't say this because I don't know about the breed. I say this, because some of the posts on here have admitted they have dogs that can't be trusted if they were loose. The legal ramifications of this alone are enough for me to wonder why you would continue to have these dogs. I guess I don't get it.


No. You pretty obviously don't know much about the breed. Yes my dog cannot be trusted if she is loose...outside....alone...with no supervision....but how many other dogs that are NOT APBT can be trusted in similar circumstances for whatever reason. 

In my home she is loose...under supervision. She plays with and interacts with certain dogs fine as long as things aren't allowed to escalate. Because she is DA. A very particular and RARE type of DA. A type that CANNOT be trained away....only carefully managed. 



Shameless said:


> I am a dog trainer and I have trained many a pitbull. Some of the things in this whole thread are very concerning. I can understand the value or level that people love their dogs. I truly can understand that. But if I owned a few dogs and I was worried that one would kill another dog when I wasn't around......then I would have to take control of the situation by getting rid of the offender. Dogs are social animals.... if you have a dog that you are worried isn't social enough that it may kill other members of your pack, then I would be seriously concerned.


You being a trainer means diddly when talking about this particular topic. Yes you have interacted with a cross section of Pit _type_ dogs in your area..but that only brings you one little piece of the puzzle..

Im am not worried that Bolo will kill my other dog because she is NEVER in a situation that would allow that to happen. I am vigilant yes....seriously concerned....no.



Shameless said:


> I totally understand the mentality of the pitbull owners. I do, I have seen numerous dogs that had a kill mentality but were helped by some training and excersise. But I don't get some of the comments on here by pitbull owners.


Most can be rehabbed using behavioral modification. Most will adjust with patience and dedication....there are a very select few that will not.

But since DA is behaviorally separate from human directed aggression...a DA dog who has shown no aggression towards humans should not nessecarilybe put down IMHO unless they develop human aggressive tendancies.



Shameless said:


> To say a dog at 2 years will develop a kill mentality is crazy. It has been well documented that a dogs behavior in his later years will be developed by the time he is 8 weeks to 20 weeks of age. A well socialized domesticated dog will have no problem with other dogs later in life.


Not crazy. Fact. Well socialized and well trained, well treated dogs of various breeds have in fact developed aggression at later stages in life...some of it is behavioral some of it medical and some of it has to do with bred in temperment traits that cannot be erased by training. 



Shameless said:


> Obvious exceptions to this rule would be, a bitch in heat and 2 dogs fighting over her, territory infringment, etc.


You are forgetting something. Predatory Drive. The "I want to kill fast moving animals" instinct. Due to variation in dogs in general....not all Pits have this trait....most do not. But a few do..and there is no way to tell just by looking at a dog...so better safe than sorry...especially when the currently climate is not very friendly to the breed.



Shameless said:


> This thread could go on for eternity but the thing I find facinating is the fact that pitbull owners....even the ones that are afraid to have their pitbulls around other members of their own pack, still claim they are a great breed of dog. This just baffles me to no end.


They ARE a FANTASTIC breed. They have an innate desire to please their people that is far stronger than any other breed I have come across.

Pit bulls EXCELL in SAR, Police Detection, Therapy Work, Dog Sport and Competition and just plain ol family pet. They simply have a few extra considerations...same as many high drivehigh energy working dog breeds.



Shameless said:


> Again, I will say.... I train dogs and have a business doing so... without pitbulls I would probably lose half my business. But at the same time, I am curious to why people are so devote to this breed.


This question was already asked and answered in this thread.



Spicy1_VV said:


> Good links.
> 
> But wow do people actually buy those books at those prices.


 some of them I couldn't find anywhere else.



Snoppykins said:


> I personally feel it is a shame the way Pits are treated. They are like any other dog, treat them wrong or let them go untrainned and you will have a problem dog on your hands.
> 
> My oldest friend's brother got a pitbull when I was 11. I was around Boris a lot. Then my family moved 30 minutes away. I still go to go to her house but it was weeks before we would see one another. That meant that Boris grew and by the time I would see him again he was bigger.
> 
> ...


I feel the same about German Shepherd Dogs. They are beautiful animals and I know they are not bad dogs...but I still feel a bit...weird around them.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Shameless said:


> Crazy....
> 
> I guess I don't get the whole fact of owning a dog that could potentially be a menace to society. Whether it be attacking other dogs or people.


I guess I don't get what this has to do with Pit Bulls?

Any dog could potentially be a menace to society. This isn't a one breed or a few breeds. This includes even toy breeds who can be menacing and cause havoc in their neighborhood. 



> I don't say this because I don't know about the breed. I say this, because some of the posts on here have admitted they have dogs that can't be trusted if they were loose. The legal ramifications of this alone are enough for me to wonder why you would continue to have these dogs. I guess I don't get it.


No one should be trusting their dog loose without supervision or that their dog won't get hurt themselves in such a situation. 

Anyway what would you suggest these people do? Dump their dog, PTS or take to the shelter? Luckily there are people on this forum who are far more responsible then that and dedicated to their dogs, whatever the breed. As again you are speaking about dog issues not breed issues. 

Darkmoon is a member who currently owns an APBT, prior to this they had a Boxer mix. He had behavior problems that they worked with and tried very hard to help. Finally Carter was PTS a hard decision to make and heavy thought put in I'm sure. They felt he was too dangerous to himself and people. They were responsible. If he could have been modified and managed then that is what they would have done even if he still wasn't the perfect dog. Most people here don't get rid of their dog even if they are not perfect all every behavior. 

Check out some non Pit Bull post and you will see dogs that have killed other pets, fought other dogs, have aggression towards humans, ect. You can also see several post where members dogs have been attacked by non Pit Bulls or they have been bitten by other breeds. 



> I am a dog trainer and I have trained many a pitbull. Some of the things in this whole thread are very concerning. I can understand the value or level that people love their dogs. I truly can understand that. But if I owned a few dogs and I was worried that one would kill another dog when I wasn't around......then I would have to take control of the situation by getting rid of the offender. Dogs are social animals.... if you have a dog that you are worried isn't social enough that it may kill other members of your pack, then I would be seriously concerned.


How would you know who the offender was? Unless you have psychic ability there isn't an easy way to tell.

Dogs are social animals, not all are as social or as tolerant. Anyway that has little to do with it. A very dog social dog can still get into a fight. If it is a Pit Bull or number of other terrier breeds then they won't want to stop so easy. A Pit Bull is obviously not for you if you wish to leave your dogs alone together, but neither are many other breeds out there who be more likely to get into a serious fight if no human is present. These type of breeds don't back down from a challenge nor do they quit very quickly once they've started something. This same trait is what make many of them candidates for work, the determination of the dogs. 



> I totally understand the mentality of the pitbull owners. I do, I have seen numerous dogs that had a kill mentality but were helped by some training and excersise. But I don't get some of the comments on here by pitbull owners.


I'm not sure how you "understand the mentality of "pitbull" owners" Since we've different mentality. Not all Pit Bull owners have the same mentality just as all Yorkie, Rotti or Lab owners do not. 

If you don't understand some comments you can always ask for clarification. That is what this thread is for. 



> To say a dog at 2 years will develop a kill mentality is crazy. It has been well documented that a dogs behavior in his later years will be developed by the time he is 8 weeks to 20 weeks of age. A well socialized domesticated dog will have no problem with other dogs later in life.


Good thing no one said that here. Unless you can quote it and I missed it. Really, "well documented". It is interesting then why do owners/breeders of many breeds say a dogs temperament can change as they mature. They will develop their mature temperament. It is another reason why they wait until the dog is mature to temperament test and breed said dog. Because things can change. Yes many of us can tell in young pup certain traits by how they act and interact with others. This isn't a guarantee. This also can't tell us if said dog will ever get in a fight sometime in their future, it can't tell us that of any breed. 



> Obvious exceptions to this rule would be, a bitch in heat and 2 dogs fighting over her, territory infringment, etc.


I don't see how those are exceptions. They are possibilities. 

Again no one said they get a kill mentality when they turned 2. That would be another myth. 



> This thread could go on for eternity but the thing I find facinating is the fact that pitbull owners....even the ones that are afraid to have their pitbulls around other members of their own pack, still claim they are a great breed of dog. This just baffles me to no end.


Again if you can quote this. I've not read anyone being afraid to have their dogs around their other dogs. I've actually read the opposite. They are with the pack on a daily and regular basis. Also this is of little consequence of them being a great breed of dog or not. Not everyone wants a dog to take to the dog bark or wants more then one dog. Some just want a stable companion who is friendly with people so they don't have to worry about that end of liability others want a fantastic athletic working dog who will go to know ends to carry out their task and please their owners. 



> Again, I will say.... I train dogs and have a business doing so... without pitbulls I would probably lose half my business. But at the same time, I am curious to why people are so devote to this breed.


If that was your question for the pit people then go back a page or so and you'll see some answers.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

I think some are taking the statements...*You can never trust a bulldog not to fight*...*It is normal for "Pit Bulls" to be DA (Dog Aggressive)*...*You can never leave "Bulldog" breeds alone unsupervised with other animals*...in the wrong way. It is because these things "can happen" that resposible "pit bull" owners should be very diligent keeping thier dogs out of those situations. It almost becomes second nature and is not a chore what-so-ever. In fact, if more people followed the same precautions that good "pit bull" owners take there would be far fewer problems with all breeds in general.

The biggest problem I have with other dog owners is THEM being off leash and running up to Diesel. Luckily, Diesel is not DA at 15.5 months and nothing has happenned BUT it could turn out badly one day. The owners of smaller dogs start yelling and screaming for "fluffy" or "scooters" to come back when it is already too late. If a dog Diesels size happens to be DA, and one of these dogs run up on him it would be a mess and the owners would still blame ME/DIESEL for even being out in public.

The other thing is that some dogs are "Selectively DA". I can not count the times people try to just walk right up with thier dogs of any size and when I ask them to stop they say, "It is not a problem, my dog loves every other dog!" I have to tell them that Diesel sometimes brings out the worst in other dogs (he has never gone after any dogs)...They act surprised when thier dog either turns away or gets aggressive with warning barks. They are usually surprised that Diesel makes no noise and just pulls hard on the end of his leash.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

DieselDawg said:


> I think some are taking the statements...*You can never trust a bulldog not to fight*...*It is normal for "Pit Bulls" to be DA (Dog Aggressive)*...*You can never leave "Bulldog" breeds alone unsupervised with other animals*...in the wrong way. It is because these things "can happen" that resposible "pit bull" owners should be very diligent keeping thier dogs out of those situations. It almost becomes second nature and is not a chore what-so-ever. In fact, if more people followed the same precautions that good "pit bull" owners take there would be far fewer problems with all breeds in general.
> 
> The biggest problem I have with other dog owners is THEM being off leash and running up to Diesel. Luckily, Diesel is not DA at 15.5 months and nothing has happenned BUT it could turn out badly one day. The owners of smaller dogs start yelling and screaming for "fluffy" or "scooters" to come back when it is already too late. If a dog Diesels size happens to be DA, and one of these dogs run up on him it would be a mess and the owners would still blame ME/DIESEL for even being out in public.
> 
> The other thing is that some dogs are "Selectively DA". I can not count the times people try to just walk right up with thier dogs of any size and when I ask them to stop they say, "It is not a problem, my dog loves every other dog!" I have to tell them that Diesel sometimes brings out the worst in other dogs (he has never gone after any dogs)...They act surprised when thier dog either turns away or gets aggressive with warning barks. They are usually surprised that Diesel makes no noise and just pulls hard on the end of his leash.


excellent post by the owner of (maybe) purebred Diesel..p)


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Shameless said:


> Crazy....
> 
> I guess I don't get the whole fact of owning a dog that could potentially be a menace to society. Whether it be attacking other dogs or people.


By telling the Pit Bull owners on this forum that their dogs are a potential menace to society, you are basically inferring that you think these owners are incapable of keeping their dogs from running at large. At least that's how I see it. That's really the only way a dog can be a menace to society - poor ownership/management. And any dog has that potential in the wrong hands.


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## Shameless (Dec 11, 2008)

I think most of you missed the point of my post. My point was...if you are afraid to leave your pack unattended by a human, then what is the point of having a vicious dog?

Bag on my training experience all you want. Whether you like it or not, I have trained and worked with many pitbulls. I said from the beginning of my post that I don't hate them but I have reservations about some of the posts on here.

I have dogs that are fully capable of being together. I would never worry about them killing another pack member. If I bring in a new dog for training I don't worry about it getting killed. 

And to say I know nothing about dogs or dog behavior, you better come up with some ammo. Because from what I have read on this site..... Some of you have no clue on dog behavior. Consider that a slam or whatever you want. But we are talking about dogs that kill things in this post. And I read a news article today about 2 Pit Bulls that killed a person. That they knew, no less. So... again... I ask, why would you harbor a dog that you know could or would harm another animal or person? 

Save the spelling posts for your kids.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

Shameless said:


> I think most of you missed the point of my post. My point was...if you are afraid to leave your pack unattended by a human, then what is the point of having a vicious dog?
> 
> *With this statement you are assuming that our precautions are an indication that this breed is vicious. You are ignoring everything that comes between these two extremes...you are also discounting the numerous posts above that have told you time and again that DA in this and many other breeds is a part of nature. If you choose to leave any dogs unsupervised, then I say that you are ignoring these facts of nature and "accidents" (although they are not accidental now you know all things are possible) can happen.*
> 
> ...


*Save the blanket assessments for your clients...my responsees in BOLD.*


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## Shameless (Dec 11, 2008)

LOL too funny. Again you twist the words to suit you. 

Answer the original questions.. Of course, no one can!

In fact just answer any question. Start with why the grandfather was killed. I still know more about dogs than you do.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

Shameless said:


> *LOL too funny*. Again you twist the words to suit you.
> 
> Answer the original questions.. Of course, no one can!
> 
> In fact just answer any question. Start with why the grandfather was killed. I still know more about dogs than you do.


Nervous laughter is always a sign of uncertainty...thank you for your response. Now go spay your males as the reporter indicated. You also show your arrogance with your "my dad can beat up your dad" type statement..."I still know more about dogs than you do". You say answer the question yet you choose to ignore the dogs we are talking about are APBTs/ASTs/ABs/SBTs/AmBullys. I would not trust you to even teach my Diesel with "target" training with your opinions on supervion of this breed. As for why the granfather was killed...we will never know BECAUSE the dogs were left together unsupervised by thier owners.

Since you know more than me about dogs you should be able to answer some simple questions.

How old am I?

What breeds have I owned in the past?

What experience do I have with breeding?

Have I ever been involved with training?

Do I have any genetic expertise with dogs and DNA?

You are so arrogant that you would state emphatically that you know more about dogs than me...that is a statement of stupidity. Here is a biscuit...good boy!


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## Shameless (Dec 11, 2008)

No need. My dogs don't kill people or attack other animals. But thanks.

Failed to answer any questions again.... Hmmm

Must be nice being a know it all with no answers.



DieselDawg said:


> Nervous laughter is always a sign of uncertainty...thank you for your response. Now go spay your males as the reporter indicated. You also show your arrogance with your "my dad can beat up your dad" type statement..."I still know more about dogs than you do". You say answer the question yet you choose to ignore the dogs we are talking about are APBTs/ASTs/ABs/SBTs/AmBullys. I would not trust you to even teach my Diesel with "target" training with your opinions on supervion of this breed. As for why the granfather was killed...we will never know BECAUSE the dogs were left together unsupervised by thier owners.
> 
> Since you know more than me about dogs you should be able to answer some simple questions.
> 
> ...


CRAZY is all I have to say. 

You can own as many dogs as you want. Still doesn't make you an expert on anything. 

I have trained and worked with many dogs that have issues related to this thread. Have YOU? Oops I asked another question that you are incapable of answering, sorry. Good luck with your dogs. I had no intention of argueing with you today.... I just asked some questions that I guess are too hard to answer.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I just want to say that this post was started with good intentions to answer questions from the Pit bull owners perspective. I find it sad that people have to get on and start making attacks against other dog owners. Can we really not handle a civilized discussion without slinging insults? Are we not all adults? Do we not want to represent ourselves and our breeds maturely?


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## Shameless (Dec 11, 2008)

Sorry! I didn't insult anyone until I was attacked. I work with this breed all the time. I asked a couple questions and was jumped. Again, I would think the people that are actually interested in this discussion will reply with good intentions.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Any breed can kill there is documented proof of that small or large! While working at the Humane Society training I never had a problem going into the kennels of the Bully Breeds. I was bit a few times there and it was by small dogs never by Bullys.

Ten years I have been rescuing American Bulldogs and often get Pits in the mix. All have been able to be trained and placed into good homes.


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## Shameless (Dec 11, 2008)

Well I think that getting bitten is part of the job if you work with dogs. If I get bit, I take it as part of the job. But if I was bitten and then attacked to the point of maybe losing my life.... I may have a different view.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

You were not attacked.


This is how I and others interpreted your first post to this thread...

Number One what you said in your first post makes it read like you did not even read the whole thread before posting because

a. the previous posts are full of comments about _variation in dogs_. Meaning that THE MAJORITY of this breed will not attack bite kill and maim. There are very FEW pits bulls who have this particular trait. The POSSIBILITY of it however..dictates a proactive preventative course of action

and 

b. You asked a question that had already been asked AND answered.


That coupled with the apparent tone of the post IS insulting to anyone who owns a pit.

MissMutt put it very well.

"By telling the Pit Bull owners on this forum that their dogs are a potential menace to society, you are basically inferring that you think these owners are incapable of keeping their dogs from running at large. At least that's how I see it. That's really the only way a dog can be a menace to society - poor ownership/management. And any dog has that potential in the wrong hands."

YOU attacked US. we responded.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Any post that paints and entire "breed" with one broad brush is not likely to be received kindly. All generalizations are wrong - in general.

Arrogance is not received well. To assume that you know more about dogs than anyone else is arrogant. To expect us to accept that on faith is even more arrogant.

I took a few minutes to read this whole thread before commenting on the tone (and not the content.) I'd suggest anyone else who posts here do the same. To ask a question that's already been answered on the same thread is laziness (and arrogance, because it implies that your time is too valuable to wade through 4-5 pages of posts.)


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

When I first saw this thread I was going to sort of be a smart alec and ask "Aren't you afraid your dog will turn on you?" I figured people would know I was kidding as most of them know me on this forum. I decided to ask a different question. One I also already know the answer to but thought it would be good for others to hear the answers to. I think many people are curious as to "why people would want a dog that could be dangerous". I think that has been answered to some degree. I think it is because the good out weighs the bad in Pit bull fanciers eyes. I imagine it is much the same as someone that has Saint Bernard's liking them despite the hair and the drool or Hound people like their breed despite the baying. There are many many breeds I like and appreciate but most of them I could not live with. When people have asked me why I would want such a dangerous breed of dog I sort of laugh to myself. I do not see Rottweilers as dangerous at all. I see them as a well rounded family dog of exceptionally sound temperament with a great sense of loyalty, love and a wonderful sense of humor. Easy groom coat, reasonable activity level, drop dead gorgeous. Perfect in every way. FOR ME! :d If I ever did own a Pit bull it would be when I only wanted one dog. I think they are amazingly athletic, lovable, outgoing friendly, very trainable, clean dogs with a wonderful sense of humor. I however, want more then one dog and do not wish to have to make all the efforts that others are willing to do to make that work. I know what works for me and what I can offer. 

Shameless I am not yelling at you. I tend to get a "mother voice" or NUN voice as some others will attest to. I know people get very very defensive of their breed. I think that if you sit back and think about it. If people suddenly turned on your breed of choice, the media started attacking it and more and more bites were happening because of bad owners then people started screaming for bans you would still love your breed as you knew it before all the hype. You know how wonderful they can be in the home that if right for them. It is hard not to become a bit testy when it is a daily struggle to own the breed that is perfect for you. I just hope people can keep it civil and maybe learn a little from each other. We all have something to bring to this discussion. Hopefully we can do it with an open mind and willing heart.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Shameless said:


> Well I think that getting bitten is part of the job if you work with dogs. If I get bit, I take it as part of the job. But if I was bitten and then attacked to the point of maybe losing my life.... I may have a different view.


Then why work with any large dogs at all? Any large breed dog can kill. And, I can almost guarantee if the lawmakers were to take the Pit Bull out of the mix you'd see the biting ad killing stats go up for many other breeds.. Dogos, Bordeaux's, Cane Corsos, Presa Canarios, so many of the Molosser breeds and I'm sure the usual "dangerous" dogs as well.. Dobes, Rotts, Shepherds. Labs would jump. Goldens are already on the rise. What do all of these dogs have in common? Their size. If you find a Golden messed up enough there's no doubt it can be just as devastating as a Pit attack.

Don't you see a trend in the bites/attacks/killings that happen? Surely as a dog trainer you cant read through the sensationalism of the media. Any dog that attacks, bites, kills, of any breed, is being poorly managed. I have never heard of a well trained Pit Bull kept in the home of a very responsible owner killing a person. All the stories say "the parents left the room while the dog was eating and the child was playing on the floor," or someone got bit trying to break up a fight, or my favorite, from one of the latest ones "the dog was exhibiting aggressive behavior for two weeks prior to the attack"

One example is very vivid in my mind and shows ignorance on both the part of the owner and the part of the victim (well, really, the victim's parents, as he was only a baby). A man in a bad neighborhood kept a big bully-looking dog chained outside in his driveway to protect his house and belongings. A mother in that same neighborhood thought it was okay to let her child go out with the neighborhood kids while she tended to her younger child, obviously not watching the child in question with enough diligence. Sure enough, child runs up to the Pit, gets killed.

So many of these attacks occur because people don't know how to handle these dogs, or any dogs for that matter.


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## Shameless (Dec 11, 2008)

I hear everything you guys are saying.... my question was to the people that posted here knowing they have dogs that are not trustable. I want to know why you would hang onto a dog like that. We all have our reasons for liking a specific dog that has its faults. My question was why???? if you know a dog has the potential to make the headline news...would you want to keep it? I am not being mean. I am not bagging on any breeds... I was just trying to join the discussion.



MissMutt said:


> Then why work with any large dogs at all? Any large breed dog can kill. And, I can almost guarantee if the lawmakers were to take the Pit Bull out of the mix you'd see the biting ad killing stats go up for many other breeds.. Dogos, Bordeaux's, Cane Corsos, Presa Canarios, so many of the Molosser breeds and I'm sure the usual "dangerous" dogs as well.. Dobes, Rotts, Shepherds. Labs would jump. Goldens are already on the rise. What do all of these dogs have in common? Their size. If you find a Golden messed up enough there's no doubt it can be just as devastating as a Pit attack.
> 
> Don't you see a trend in the bites/attacks/killings that happen? Surely as a dog trainer you cant read through the sensationalism of the media. Any dog that attacks, bites, kills, of any breed, is being poorly managed. I have never heard of a well trained Pit Bull kept in the home of a very responsible owner killing a person. All the stories say "the parents left the room while the dog was eating and the child was playing on the floor," or someone got bit trying to break up a fight, or my favorite, from one of the latest ones "the dog was exhibiting aggressive behavior for two weeks prior to the attack"
> 
> ...



UMMMMMM Ok.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

Shameless said:


> No need. My dogs don't kill people or attack other animals. But thanks.
> 
> Failed to answer any questions again.... Hmmm
> 
> ...


*A recap of your posts.*

_post #57 on page 3 by Shameless_

*No question posted by you. Questions are followed by a "?"*

_post #73 by Shameless

what is the point of having a vicious dog?_

_and why would you harbor a dog that could kill?-refering to the pit bull attack report_

*Both distinctly responded to in post #74 by DD*

_post #75 by Shamelss

Answer the original question?_

*Your questions have been answered by more than just me in this thread...the problem is the answers don't agree with your point of view.*

_post #77 by Shameless

failed to answer any questions again..._


*Again myself and others HAVE responed to your posts...you have no good sensible response to ours except to say "Respond to the original question" which I can only assume are contained in your posts #73 and both of those HAVE been addressed.*

_post # 79

no question just that you might think twice about being attacked_

_post #81

no question just that being bitten is an accepted part of the risk in training_


*So basically, all your questions have been responded to...the responses do not agree with your position...so in your eyes your questions have not been answered to your satisfaction. Also, I didn't see you being attacked in this thread, but if you feel you were, just like being bitten as a trainer is part of the job, you are going to get answers that you don't like on a public forum.*

post #86 by Shameless

posted as I was ANSWERING your previous post


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Shameless said:


> UMMMMMM Ok.


What don't you agree with? You don't think that if Pits were wiped out, another large breed wouldn't take their place in the media as dangerous killers? It happened with all of the usual breeds.. of course they weren't totally banned but I would think ownership of them has gone down.. you now hear less about Doberman, Shepherd and Rottweiler attacks because the Pit Bull has become a breed of choice for some people for a lot of bad reasons. And that's where the problems begin.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Shameless said:


> I hear everything you guys are saying.... my question was to the people that posted here knowing they have dogs that are not trustable. I want to know why you would hang onto a dog like that. We all have our reasons for liking a specific dog that has its faults. My question was why???? if you know a dog has the potential to make the headline news...would you want to keep it? I am not being mean. I am not bagging on any breeds... I was just trying to join the discussion..


THAT question was already answered.

Here let me refresh...


If you go back along this thread you will see a post..by me...that says....


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Shameless,
Your questions have been answered and then some in this thread. The adversarial tone of your posts is not called for. 

As far as the Pit attack on that killed the family member of the owners, there's NO way to know what happened. It *could have been* the dogs sensed an illness and attacked due to preditory drift, a natural pack behavior to weed out the weak and a behavior that can occur in ANY breed. Without being a witness to the actual event there's no way to tell. Unfortunately, a man is dead and two dogs euthinized because an owner didn't pay attention. 

That said, yes there are members here who have aggressive dogs, I DO consider them responsible because they manage their problem dogs VERY well. 

I myself have a Dobe that is fearful, She was kept in an isolated kennel and had no socialization or training until she was 6 months old (she wasn't even potty trained and was used to using the bathroom on the concrete floor of the kennel). At 17 months. she is WONDERFUL with the family and with MOST other dogs, but she fears other humans and I have to follow a strict protocol to introduce her to humans. She has every potential to bite and I know it, therefore I manage her carefully and work daily to help her be more confident in social situations. However I will NEVER be able to trust her fully in public. I would also pity anyone that came into my back yard with her there, that's why I have a padlock on my gate and I don't allow her outside without supervision.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I made a conscious decision a while back not to have a dog that people (however misinformed) might be afraid of. That eliminates some very good dogs from contention - not because they are generally dangerous, because they are widely perceived as dangerous. 

Ironically, I ended up with a dog that hardly anybody has heard of and nobody would be afraid of. She is a benign-looking hound with greater potential for havoc than many of the dogs abused by the media (and cinema.)

If we are truly concerned about liability, we should not own homes, drive cars or have children. I am not a pit bull owner, but I would imagine that those who are take a calculated and controllable risk. We all do that every time we get out of bed in the morning.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> That's actually a complicated question for me lol..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There you go shameless...your answer...from a couple pages back.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

RonE said:


> I made a conscious decision a while back not to have a dog that people (however misinformed) might be afraid of. That eliminates some very good dogs from contention - not because they are generally dangerous, because they are widely perceived as dangerous.
> 
> Ironically, I ended up with a dog that hardly anybody has heard of and nobody would be afraid of. She is a benign-looking hound with greater potential for havoc than many of the dogs abused by the media (and cinema.)
> 
> If we are truly concerned about liability, we should not own homes, drive cars or have children. I am not a pit bull owner, but I would imagine that those who are take a calculated and controllable risk. We all do that every time we get out of bed in the morning.



And yet our dogs in our avatars look remarkably alike. LOL I think you are a closet Rottweiler lover Ron.  
I think if I could I would stay in bed most mornings so you won't get any arguments from me on that one. 

Cshellenberger: I didn't know Angel was so fear aggressive when I listed her on my top 10 dogs to sneak. It still stands, she is one of my favorites and I have dealt with extreme fear aggression before with my little bait dog. Lulu turned out to be an amazing dog and I know Angel will too. How could she not with that name?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

RonE said:


> I made a conscious decision a while back not to have a dog that people (however misinformed) might be afraid of. That eliminates some very good dogs from contention - not because they are generally dangerous, because they are widely perceived as dangerous.
> 
> Ironically, I ended up with a dog that hardly anybody has heard of and nobody would be afraid of. She is a benign-looking hound with greater potential for havoc than many of the dogs abused by the media (and cinema.)
> 
> If we are truly concerned about liability, we should not own homes, drive cars or have children. I am not a pit bull owner, *but I would imagine that those who are take a calculated and controllable risk. We all do that every time we get out of bed in the morning*.


Great Post Ron!


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## GeorgeGlass (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm confused. I should be afraid of my dog?

He did lick me awful hard this morning when I didn't want to get out of bed but he wanted his breakfast.....


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

GeorgeGlass said:


> I'm confused. I should be afraid of my dog?
> 
> He did lick me awful hard this morning when I didn't want to get out of bed but he wanted his breakfast.....


LOL 

I'll be sure to watch out for those dangerous licks in the future from my two.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Hey AC!!....where have you been?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GeorgeGlass said:


> I'm confused. I should be afraid of my dog?
> 
> He did lick me awful hard this morning when I didn't want to get out of bed but he wanted his breakfast.....


no. you don't....you should be observant and cautious about bringing him around other dogs. And leaving him alone with other dogs.

Because of the Pit Bull Hysteria going on right now...when a pit attack happens...EVERY responsible owner is affected negatively because that's one step closer to total ban....


So...while your dog is most likely a goofy wiggle butt...it is considered best to be proactive and prevent any situations from happening in the first place...meaning knowing your dog well and not letting him get into situations you can't control...like leaving him alone in a house or room with dog, cat or child....when you can't be there to step in....its common sense IMO.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

Been really busy Pugmom. Oh and I'd steal Isis in a heartbeat, I love that face...so pretty! I just finished my second semester of my vet course so I'm getting there. Just haven't had a lot of time to get online and chat. But, I'm back for a bit since it's X-mas vacation.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Shameless said:


> I think most of you missed the point of my post. My point was...if you are afraid to leave your pack unattended by a human, then what is the point of having a vicious dog?


Ok I did miss the point, but you're not making it clear. 

So people should only have vicious dogs if they can be left together. For what, guard dogs or something?

I'm not sure what the point of having a vicious dog is. So I can't answer this. 

I'm one who won't leave most my dogs unattended, there are very few breeds I'll personally leave unattended together. That is my preference. 



> Bag on my training experience all you want. Whether you like it or not, I have trained and worked with many pitbulls. I said from the beginning of my post that I don't hate them but I have reservations about some of the posts on here.


That is great for you. I'm not sure why people would dislike it. If you come out and be clear about what post, that would help a lot. You'd get better responses. 



> I have dogs that are fully capable of being together. I would never worry about them killing another pack member. If I bring in a new dog for training I don't worry about it getting killed.[/quite]
> 
> That is great. I personally won't do it. There are other members who feel the same and no they don't own Pit Bulls. They'd rather not leave their dogs alone together. Perhaps we are paranoid.
> 
> ...


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## trickaboo (Nov 12, 2008)

i own a mini pinscher and a pit. i had the mini pinscher first. the only way i would be able to not worry about my mini pinscher getting mauled up in a fight, would be if either i had another small dog or no other dog at all. a dog of any size above small would easily maul my mini pinscher to peices. can a pitbull do worst? sure but can any other breed do the same damage? yes. i never leave them alone together, i would never leave any of them alone together with any dog either. including my mini pinsher.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't APBTs bred to NOT be human-aggressive, because originally during the fighting days, the humans had to be able to pull the fighting dogs apart without being bitten themselves? And I thought any pit bull back then who bit a human was culled or something. Again, I could be mistaken...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Good Point about the "Pit Bull" being 107lbs. IF that's how big the dog was, I DOUBT it was a pit (a discussion DH and I had last night). Even the largest most muscular pits are only in the 60-70 lb range. The dog sounds more like an American Bulldog in size range (not saying it was an AB). People misidentify other breeds as pits all the time. My Max (English Mastiff) was often misidentified as a pit or pit mix when he was young. 

BTW, hubby is talking about adding an AmStaff to the pack in a year or so.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Cheetah said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't APBTs bred to NOT be human-aggressive, because originally during the fighting days, the humans had to be able to pull the fighting dogs apart without being bitten themselves? And I thought any pit bull back then who bit a human was culled or something. Again, I could be mistaken...



*Back in the day. I took a good friend to a dogfight. He had never been and begged me to take him. He told me he had it all wrong in his mind. He said he was shocked that they didn't make a sound like growling or snapping. He had seen dubbed newsreels of them making all kinds of noise. This sound was added to attract the news watchers*attention amd make them think agonizing cries were part of the fight.When the truth of the matter is. All you here is the swift movement and wrestling motion that is in the pit seldom is a sound made. First you place the weight of your dog with the pitbull fight crowd. Lets*say you have a dog that you think will fight his best at*44 pounds. You tell the dogfight crowd. The dogs is open to match at 44 pounds. You also say whether it is a male or female. You might say you will fight him or her for a minimum of one thousand dollars to a maximum of $5000 dollars or what ever your heart desires to bet.*$1000 to $5000*was about average in my day. Yet some dogfights are up in the $50,000 range this day and time*but this isn't*the normal bet and is a rare happening. Then both sides agree on a time set a couple of months in advance. Each side puts up around $200 to $1000 forfeit money. This is held by a trusted third party. Also their are several sets of rules dogfighters go by. These rules will be agreed on before the dogs are fought. This forfeit money is given to the opponent if the other man doesn't show up or his dog is over weight.That guarantees the people don't work their dog for nothing.* When they arrive the dogs are weighed and them each side washes the other sides dog*. This helps get rid of any drug or poison*that is put on the dog to stop the other dog from biting or fighting. There has also been a referee chosen in advance. The arena called a *pit made of wood.*It*is square with two foot high walls and dogs have a 14 foot scratchline. The term scratch is when the handler turns*his dog loose*and he has to run that 14 feet across to the other dog and mouth him or bite him is what I perferred.**It is not really a so called pit. Because it stands two feet above ground level. At one time in the early days a pit may have been dug but not in my day. *The dogs are brought to the pit after washing them and are held by the owners.With the dogs facing away from each*other until the referee says face your dogs. Then the dogs are turned around and faced at each other and held till the referee says pit your dogs*.*The dogs fight till they make what is called a turn. They will occasionally turn their head away from the opponent. That is considered a sign of fear. Yet it doesn't always mean that. When this happens* the dogs are handled* and taken to*A square two foot high pit's opposite corners. The dogs are held for an agreed amount of time facing away from the other dog. Then faced toward each other when the referee says face your dogs then the first dog that tuned*usually will have to get to the other dog in 20 second or be counted out. Then *they are handled evertime they come out of holt and taken to opposite corners *and then the dog that had to go across last time stays and his opponent has to come to him or be counted out. If no dog turns his head away during the fight. The dogs fight till they lay out of holt for an agreed time. When this happens the down dog has to scratch then they take turns. This keeps most dogs from getting killed. If one is to hurt to bad*to go across or to tired or afraid to go across and is counted out and the fight is over. 

Taken from: http://rayfox6.tripod.com/id28.html


Yes. in a way..Manbiters were simply not tolerated with a very few exceptions as far as I can determine from my historical researches..they were useless in a way...so many strangers had to interact with them at fights..

and many were part time family dogs..there is historical evidence...take a look at the link...there are some surprises in there...


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Carla, good point about the weight of the pits. Blue was 65 when I took him in and very underweight. He's now a little over 80 and the vet still wants him to gain another 20 or so, because he's still a bit thin. At his goal, he'll be sitting at around 100 pounds. I've often wondered what lines or whatever he was mixed with. He's definitely a big-headed, broad shouldered pit bull, but weighs a heck of a lot too.

Denver on the other hand is a puny pibble, LOL. He's around 40, tiny, and lean. I call him a mini-me pibble. 

I don't have much to add, at least right now, to this thread. Just wanted to say this thread (aside from the bickering) is extremely educational and I've enjoyed reading it.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

MyRescueCrew said:


> Carla, good point about the weight of the pits. Blue was 65 when I took him in and very underweight. He's now a little over 80 and the vet still wants him to gain another 20 or so, because he's still a bit thin. At his goal, he'll be sitting at around 100 pounds. I've often wondered what lines or whatever he was mixed with. He's definitely a big-headed, broad shouldered pit bull, but weighs a heck of a lot too.
> 
> Denver on the other hand is a puny pibble, LOL. He's around 40, tiny, and lean. I call him a mini-me pibble.
> 
> I don't have much to add, at least right now, to this thread. Just wanted to say this thread (aside from the bickering) is extremely educational and I've enjoyed reading it.


I was hoping for an educational sort of thread...Im glad you enjoyed it...

Blue may simply be poorly bred, some big gamehunters apparently also breed oversized pits for hunting...he could be some variation on a bandogge..or there is at least one bogus pit line that is a mastiff cross...

Denver is an excellent size...my two are forty five and forty eight pounds....The desired sort of overall physical impression of the correct pit bull is that of a medium dog...medium size..strong build but not overly stocky to balance agility with strength...all individual aspects of the dog are in even proportion with the other....the desired dog is not one of overwhelming physical strength...rather a dog with an even balance of strength, agility and stamina...


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Cheetah said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't APBTs bred to NOT be human-aggressive, because originally during the fighting days, the humans had to be able to pull the fighting dogs apart without being bitten themselves? And I thought any pit bull back then who bit a human was culled or something. Again, I could be mistaken...


Exactly. That is why I don't understand all the vicious dog going to attack people, why do you have it in your home talk. Of course there are unstable, unsound individuals of most breeds. This doesn't represent the breed as a whole. They were bred to be human friendly out of necessity. This is how they developed. They might be sent to others for conditioning, breeding, or someone other then the owner handling them during the fight. They had to be washed before the fight. They had to be separated during a fight, if fanged then that had to be dealt with as well. They had to be given medical treatment after the fight. Think how many dogs will bite out of pain, normal every day pets who people consider trustworthy, but expect that if they get severally injured they're going to possibly bite unlike what we expect in this breed. 



MyRescueCrew said:


> Carla, good point about the weight of the pits. Blue was 65 when I took him in and very underweight. He's now a little over 80 and the vet still wants him to gain another 20 or so, because he's still a bit thin. At his goal, he'll be sitting at around 100 pounds. I've often wondered what lines or whatever he was mixed with. He's definitely a big-headed, broad shouldered pit bull, but weighs a heck of a lot too.
> 
> Denver on the other hand is a puny pibble, LOL. He's around 40, tiny, and lean. I call him a mini-me pibble.
> 
> I don't have much to add, at least right now, to this thread. Just wanted to say this thread (aside from the bickering) is extremely educational and I've enjoyed reading it.


With rescues you can never really know. There are so many bybs mixing Pits with other breeds for size that its anyone's guess. At the end of the day he is still a pit bull type dog and I doubt BSL would care that he is a big tongue hanging out baby. 

Do you have any others of Denver besides the one in the siggy, that is him right. I really like his look. I think I saw a couple in another thread but can't remember which now. He's got such a sweetheart look to him. Nothing mini about him, 40lbs is right on the money I'd say. They should be lean/muscular. With a desire range of 35-60lbs for males. Although that is how it is in this day and age, the true ones are called "mini" or "mutts" when it the giant ones who are. Even though it gets annoying you get used to it after awhile. 

No wonder people fail the "find the pit games" so often. Many mastiff breeds are mistaken for Pits frequently. I guess when a mastiff attacks its an extra giant Pit Bull and when a Jack Russel attacks its a tiny Pit Bull. If it bites it must be a Pit Bull.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Zim, I've heard that before too, that 40-50 with a good lean build is a nice size pit bull. And I've also heard that the overall size of a proper pit bull is that of a medium size. 

Where I've worked before, I've seen some pit bulls come in that were almost deformed in their shape. Their heads were MASSIVE... and I litterally mean massively wide, as were their bodies. We had one guy that had two wonderful pit bulls, brother and sister, both spayed/neutered, he raised them from babies. They slept in the bed with him, and they were like his children. They were Deuxe and Diamond (their names) and they weighed 150 and 140 pounds respectively. Those dogs had the most massive heads I've ever seen, it was shocking. They were definitely out of proportion, in my opinion.

Denver definitely has strength and agility. He can jump well over my head for something, and can run so fast when chasing stuff, it's like looking at a beige flash of lightning. 

Blue, on the other hand... well he's just old, LOL. He can still run when he wants to, but he uses his weight to get what he wants. When he wants you to pet him, he just slams his 80 pound frame head-first into your kneecaps to get your attention. 

Spicy, I've got more pics of him. Gotta go find 'em in my photobucket account...


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Thanks you guys for that info.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

That is like perfect definition

*even balance of strength, agility and stamina*



MyRescueCrew said:


> Zim, I've heard that before too, that 40-50 with a good lean build is a nice size pit bull. And I've also heard that the overall size of a proper pit bull is that of a medium size.
> 
> Where I've worked before, I've seen some pit bulls come in that were almost deformed in their shape. Their heads were MASSIVE... and I litterally mean massively wide, as were their bodies. We had one guy that had two wonderful pit bulls, brother and sister, both spayed/neutered, he raised them from babies. They slept in the bed with him, and they were like his children. They were Deuxe and Diamond (their names) and they weighed 150 and 140 pounds respectively. Those dogs had the most massive heads I've ever seen, it was shocking. They were definitely out of proportion, in my opinion.
> 
> ...


140 and 150 yeah mutts, unless there was some type of mutation which occurred. 

Personally 50lbs is too big for me. Its a good size though for many. Zim for some reason I thought Bolo was smaller too.  Maybe wishful thinking 35ish. 

I don't think that just because a dog is large that they will be cumbersome. Its all about proportion. To me Blue doesn't look like a big overdone hunk. I bet in his younger days he might have really been very athletic from the looks of him.

What is your smallest size dog? About how big is Luke? Any new pics. He's the type of dog I really like. Oh I'll be waiting for the Denver pics too.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Spicy, here's a few Denver's pics:




























And for comparison sake, this is Blue:


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> That is like perfect definition
> 
> *even balance of strength, agility and stamina*
> 
> ...


yeah...well..shes fat right now...most of it is in her boobs(the kittens are driving me bananas with the nursing...it make Bolo want to eat more) and complaining about being on a diet...

Perfect ideal weight for Bolo is about fortyish..


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

My smallest dog is Callie (long haired mini dachshund) who weights in at 7 pounds.

Luke (who we re-named Sam awhile back because Luke just didn't "fit") is actually 17 pounds (tall and lanky though). And I realllyyy don't think that dog is beagle or rat terrier like the vet thought. Too deep of a bark, no baying, and just doesn't have any characteristics of neither breed, LOL. I have a couple new pics of him, I'll have to PM them to you.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

MyRescueCrew said:


> And for comparison sake, this is Blue:


After seeing this pic Im inclined to think Blue may just be a poorly bred BYB dog. It doesn't make him any less of a good dog but his structure as far as pits are concerned is terrible IMO. He is still a smooshable dawg though..

From what I can see Denver looks like a decently bred pure pit. (I want him.)


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> yeah...well..shes fat right now...most of it is in her boobs(the kittens are driving me bananas with the nursing...it make Bolo want to eat more) and complaining about being on a diet...
> 
> Perfect ideal weight for Bolo is about fortyish..


Wow they are still doing that! Sheesh. 

Jaxon is around 40lbs. He's been filling out a little. 



MyRescueCrew said:


> My smallest dog is Callie (long haired mini dachshund) who weights in at 7 pounds.
> 
> Luke (who we re-named Sam awhile back because Luke just didn't "fit") is actually 17 pounds (tall and lanky though). And I realllyyy don't think that dog is beagle or rat terrier like the vet thought. Too deep of a bark, no baying, and just doesn't have any characteristics of neither breed, LOL. I have a couple new pics of him, I'll have to PM them to you.


Oh forgot Sam.  Yeah I'd love to see pics, I couldn't make out his size in the pics but he is beautiful to me. Hmmm wonder what the mix could be. 

Thanks for the Denver pics. He looks so amazing similar to campbell dogs. Same structure and that face! Wow. 

Yeah I think Blue, while his confo is way off, he looks athletic. Like if he were younger he could still move. Maybe he wouldn't be the most swift dog on the planet but thats not super important.

ETA I just notice his tail tucked too.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> After seeing this pic Im inclined to think Blue may just be a poorly bred BYB dog. It doesn't make him any less of a good dog but his structure as far as pits are concerned is terrible IMO. He is still a smooshable dawg though..
> 
> From what I can see Denver looks like a decently bred pure pit. (I want him.)


Hehe, Denver's a sweetie. I agree, Blue does look poorly bred. Honestly, when I first met him, I thought he was a pit bull/chocolate lab cross, LOL!

Yeah, his tail is always tucked, except for when he's at the house. Extremely nervous and hand-shy. I'll have to record some video for you this week though, when he's here with the crew, he has the time of his life and becomes a totally different dog.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

MyRescueCrew said:


> Yeah, his tail is always tucked, except for when he's at the house. Extremely nervous and hand-shy. I'll have to record some video for you this week though, when he's here with the crew, he has the time of his life and becomes a totally different dog.


That is creepy!! Sounds like a campbell dog too. Nervous, shy, act like they been beat, but they can bond very close given enough time. I bet like night and day. I've seen some not like that more not so shy as the rest or because owners took a lot of time to social them and spent lots of time with them. Normally though they are uncomfortable around strangers or in social settings (if you read their face and body language) and others act nervous, sometimes even bark although not man aggressive. Wow pics, video, you are spoiling us Pit lovers.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Yep, that's him -- very nervous and shy, especially in public or around people he doesn't know. It took Denver a couple months before he really became close to me. I start taking him home probably back in May or so, a couple months after Blue. 

He never barks at anyone, in fact I don't think I've ever heard him bark, not even at other dogs. But his best friend is Blue, back from their clinic days together, but he also loves Bo. Those are his best friends, and when he's out with the crew, he acts like a puppy. Bring him somewhere social or around someone he doesn't know, and people probably think I've beaten him senseless. Tail tucked, head low, and extremely nervous/shy. He is also a very submissive dog. If Bo barks at him to tell him he's had enough playing, Denver instantly backs down, and sometimes cowers. Other than that, he has a humping problem, but that's it, LOL.

Is campbell a bloodline? I'm all curious now.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Yeah, there is some campbell bred dogs like him. The one's I've mainly seen were not direct campbell stock but basically of that line although might be a couple gens back in the ped. 

I have some pics I can post. So you can see for yourself on the physical traits. 

They are anywhere from pretty normal to extremely skittish. You have some that are better or have had a lot of work where they won't act shy or tuck their tail but they are still not totally comfortable. Others are nervous like Denver, but fine with their family or take awhile to warm up to a new owner but then they are like night a day. You'd think them a totally different dog once warmed up for the most part. That sounds right with some, like they've been beat, act like they don't trust people. Not all bark, but some do. Some just cower or tuck tail. Others just ignore you and I think hope you go away and won't try to touch them.

Interestingly if you out cross then you get most of the good traits or the good traits in most of the litter like wind, athletic ability, nice structures without the skittish temperaments. At least from what I've seen. I don't know every crossed litter out there but I've seen some whole litters or several from some litters and they don't typically exhibit this behavior. We have one crossed, so do my in laws and I've known several more which have normal Pit Bull temperament. What you typically think of, happy go lucky, I love everyone, social type of dogs. 

Now if you breed two dogs together where there would be some line breeding then there are shy dogs coming out, even though it still might only be 50% of the line in the ped. At least from some of the breedings I've seen, your going to at least get some.


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## Farore (Apr 20, 2008)

I know a lot about pit bulls and support the "ban the deed, not the breed". But this girl in my school that when I started talking about my pit that had been abused because the owner thought he should be harsh, she stated that she thinks all pits should not have owner and should be killed. She said they are all vicious. She had been mildly "attacked" by a pit bull and I can understand that. But I was attacked by a dachshund (on the nose and thumb) and I don't hold a huge grudge for the entire breed. I can understand where she's coming from, the whole "no owner can be trusted" but I think that's a little ridiculuous! She believes it's the dog breed and the dog's fault when it is vicious to humans (which is completely untrue).


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks pugmom and zim, I'll have to get reading. I'm scared to look at the graphic stuff. I'll have to let my breakfast settle a little more. 

I took the find the pit bull test on understand-a-bull, and I got it on my first try. I'm a dog nerd, though. I found it hilarious that a chocolate lab was on there. That's the only kind of dog I've been attacked by.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CerbiesMom said:


> Thanks pugmom and zim, I'll have to get reading. I'm scared to look at the graphic stuff. I'll have to let my breakfast settle a little more.
> 
> I took the find the pit bull test on understand-a-bull, and I got it on my first try. I'm a dog nerd, though. I found it hilarious that a chocolate lab was on there. That's the only kind of dog I've been attacked by.



The graphic stuff is pictures of one or two dogfights.. Its not too terrible....no dangling guts or torn off legs etc etc...just blood and obvious wounds. But IMHO you need to see it if you really want to understand the breed. 


Good job on the pick the pit game...Most fail...I think every single person I have shown that to has picked one of the Mastiffs on there....kind gives you a hint as to what people think a pit is supposed to be...everyone around me seems to think Pits are supposed to massive and uber muscular..here's an idea..Show the game to others you know...see how many people get it right lol...


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## HersheyBear (Dec 13, 2008)

I find it ironic when owners of breeds formerly painted as "vicious", use the same terms put upon their breed of choice for pit bull.

A few decades ago, the Rottweiler was the demonized breed. Before that was the Doberman, and before that was the German Shepherd. In the 1940's it was the Bloodhound, and in the early part of the century many of the same things said about pit bulls were said about _Collies_. Yes, collies.

The darlings of today's media were the "pit bulls' of yesterday. In the early half of 1900's and in the 1800's, pit bulls were "America's Breed". They were in advertising, media, vintage photographs. Beloved family pets as well as working dogs on ranches and farms. It's entirely the fault of humans when dogs act aggressively. There's no inherently "bad breed".


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## Tessier9999 (Sep 1, 2008)

Cheetah said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't APBTs bred to NOT be human-aggressive, because originally during the fighting days, the humans had to be able to pull the fighting dogs apart without being bitten themselves? And I thought any pit bull back then who bit a human was culled or something. Again, I could be mistaken...



Not EVERY APBT was bred that way. Some people stretch the rules a bit. For example, the all famous Chinaman was an excited biter, but they look the other way since he was such an accomplish fighter. Although breeding a biter was look down upon, I wouldn't be surprise if some people look the other way with the temperament and look at the ability.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Tessier9999 said:


> Not EVER APBT was bred that way. Some people stretch the rules a bit. For example, the all famous Chinaman was an excited biter, but they look the other way since he was such an accomplish fighter. Although breeding a biter was look down upon, I wouldn't be surprise if some people look the other way with the temperament and look at the ability.


Some argue Chinaman's state of health as the reason he wasn't shot for biting....some argue fighting ability...I say the real motivation was greed....I also think that that's around the timeperiod the APBT started to slide downward as a breed...That's speculation on my part though...I can't prove it yet....



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Yes. in a way..Manbiters were simply not tolerated *with a very few exceptions* as far as I can determine from my historical researches..they were useless in a way...so many strangers had to interact with them at fights..
> 
> and many were part time family dogs..there is historical evidence...take a look at the link...there are some surprises in there...



and I did mention that...

Id also like to add that I doubt very highly that most modern dogfighters follow the no manbiters rule..hence the issues...remember the dogfight stuff posted is about dogfight history...


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## Tessier9999 (Sep 1, 2008)

> Crazy....
> 
> I guess I don't get the whole fact of owning a dog that could potentially be a menace to society. Whether it be attacking other dogs or people.


You can't trust any dog 100%. They are animals and like all animals, they follow their instinct first rather than reason.


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## tysonNaggie (Dec 22, 2008)

Tessier9999 said:


> You can't trust any dog 100%. They are animals and like all animals, they follow their instinct first rather than reason.


Its very true when I was younger my parents had a chihuahua and a samoyed and my parents always kept them seperated when no one was around. I do the same with my dogs because even though they get along I'm not willing to take any chances. One thing I dont understand is the need for people to make comments while I walk them. Have any of you guys ever experienced this?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

tysonNaggie said:


> Its very true when I was younger my parents had a chihuahua and a samoyed and my parents always kept them seperated when no one was around. I do the same with my dogs because even though they get along I'm not willing to take any chances. One thing I dont understand is the need for people to make comments while I walk them. Have any of you guys ever experienced this?



yep...all the time....every day....multiple times a day...its really rather upsetting.


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## tysonNaggie (Dec 22, 2008)

It is upsetting because there isnt any need for it. I understand that certain people dont like my bullys but geez they should learn to keep there nasty remarks to themselves.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Why are pitty's so cute and lovable!?!?!?!

Answer me that!!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

here is the reference to Chinaman as a biter.

http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/chinamanstory.html




> After a short stay, Dr. Wood shipped Chinaman to Vince and Bob in California to make up for an earlier prospect he had sold them that failed to live up to expectations.* He arrived full of hookworms and roundworms and weighed only 42 lbs., 4 lbs. below his eventual best match weight of 46 lbs. Bob kept him on a long cable run and tried to help him overcome his emaciated state. Chinaman thanked him by biting him, so Bob shipped him to Vince.* It was love at first sight. Vince wormed Chinaman and scheduled a roll for him.
> After a 3-hour drive Chinaman was nauseated and dehydrated. He was pitted 10 lbs. uphill against a powerful red dog named Ch. Caesar who proceeded to mop the floor with him. When the big dog tired, Chinaman went to the stifles and punched very hard. Even though he was still nauseated and underweight he came up from the bottom to bite down and stop Caesar at: 28.



this to me suggests ill treatment and health contributing to general temperment...

there is another reference I found that's slightly different but tells the same story...im trying to find it again...


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## Tessier9999 (Sep 1, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> here is the reference to Chinaman as a biter.
> 
> http://www.sporting-dog.com/select-pages/chinamanstory.html
> 
> ...



Do you have a pic of him to show? He may be a biter, but he is one of the most beautiful APBT I've seen.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Question.. I know very little about APBT bloodlines and now that you've mentioned this name "Chinaman" my interest has been spurred and I am Googling away. I came across this site.. (hope I'm allowed to post the link?)

http://tom-garner-kennels.com/

It seems like their dogs came from fighting lines as "Chinaman" is mentioned all over the site. Obviously the site has a disclaimer saying that they only sell dogs for legal purposes.. do you think this is a crock of crap? I, not knowing any better, wouldn't be so quick to trust this little guarantee and would assume there is some underground stuff going on.

I also see nothing about health or temperament testing, and the site certainly implies these animals are DA as they tout about them being great with people, but nothing mentioned with other dogs.. just looking for knowledgable opinions on what a site like this really IS all about..


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Question.. I know very little about APBT bloodlines and now that you've mentioned this name "Chinaman" my interest has been spurred and I am Googling away. I came across this site.. (hope I'm allowed to post the link?)
> 
> http://tom-garner-kennels.com/
> 
> ...


The only thing I know about tom is that he was under "suspicion" for dog fighting...all his dogs were seized and euthanize w/in a few days....he was later found not guilty....but it was too late for his dogs....a very sad situation


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

pugmom said:


> The only thing I know about tom is that he was under "suspicion" for dog fighting...all his dogs were seized and euthanize w/in a few days....he was later found not guilty....but it was too late for his dogs....a very sad situation


So all of those dogs were euth'd? When'd this happen?


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## Tessier9999 (Sep 1, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Question.. I know very little about APBT bloodlines and now that you've mentioned this name "Chinaman" my interest has been spurred and I am Googling away. I came across this site.. (hope I'm allowed to post the link?)
> 
> http://tom-garner-kennels.com/
> 
> ...


That, my friend, is my biggest problem with the APBT community today. That breeder, Tom Garner, is label the number one APBT breeder in the game community, yet he does no health testing, breds over ten litters a year, and he sells out to the public and all over the world. He acknowledges that his dogs do go to dog fighters, but he says he can't help that! Of course, with his site stating that he has the gamest dogs, of course he can't help that.

He, to me, is no better than a BYB.



pugmom said:


> The only thing I know about tom is that he was under "suspicion" for dog fighting...all his dogs were seized and euthanize w/in a few days....he was later found not guilty....but it was too late for his dogs....a very sad situation


That wasn't Tom.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

pugmom said:


> The only thing I know about tom is that he was under "suspicion" for dog fighting...all his dogs were seized and euthanize w/in a few days....he was later found not guilty....but it was too late for his dogs....a very sad situation


from what I heard I figured him for a "game testing" breeder..some who doesn't participate in organized dogfights but who fights his breeding secimens at least once before allowing them to breed....that's just a guess...


Im not a huge fan of most Chinaman stuff....some is exceptional...a lot is not...


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

who am I thinking of then?....I thought that was the right name...hmm off to google?


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## trickaboo (Nov 12, 2008)

sorry lil off topic of whats going on right now but this is the "ask the pit bull people" thread so...i keep reading the best way to exercise your dog is to hand walk it for like 3 miles. ive been trying to figure out what handwalking is. i read its just walking your dog period, and ive also read its when you let your dog pull during the walk. well what is it exactly?


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## Tessier9999 (Sep 1, 2008)

That event happen twice. Once was Pat Patrick and the other was Floyd Boudreaux. This happen quite recently and it is a ploy by HSUS to euthanize all the famous gamelines. They have very recently raided Wildside kennels too. Both Pat and Floyd's dogs were killed before the trial even started. Very upsetting indeed and the APBT community is going crazy over it.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

HersheyBear said:


> I find it ironic when owners of breeds formerly painted as "vicious", use the same terms put upon their breed of choice for pit bull.
> 
> A few decades ago, the Rottweiler was the demonized breed. Before that was the Doberman, and before that was the German Shepherd. In the 1940's it was the Bloodhound, and in the early part of the century many of the same things said about pit bulls were said about _Collies_. Yes, collies.
> 
> The darlings of today's media were the "pit bulls' of yesterday. In the early half of 1900's and in the 1800's, pit bulls were "America's Breed". They were in advertising, media, vintage photographs. Beloved family pets as well as working dogs on ranches and farms. It's entirely the fault of humans when dogs act aggressively. There's no inherently "bad breed".


Unfortunately, Rotties don't get to be "darlings" yet. They are almost always still listed on all the bans and restriction proposals. The fight is no where near over for any of those breeds. Well, maybe the Bloodhound they fell off the popularity chart long enough ago that people don't remember them much.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Tessier9999 said:


> That, my friend, is my biggest problem with the APBT community today. That breeder, Tom Garner, is label the number one APBT breeder in the game community, yet he does no health testing, breds over ten litters a year, and he sells out to the public and all over the world. He acknowledges that his dogs do go to dog fighters, but he says he can't help that! Of course, with his site stating that he has the gamest dogs, of course he can't help that.
> 
> He, to me, is no better than a BYB.


Thanks. That's what I thought.. it certainly doesn't seem like a very reputable place. Once I looked at the puppy page and he had 12 litters, that's when I knew.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Did he take over the kennel?..or some of the dogs?...why am I associating his name w/that case?....



Tessier9999 said:


> That event happen twice. Once was Pat Patrick and the other was Floyd Boudreaux. This happen quite recently and it is a ploy by HSUS to euthanize all the famous gamelines. They have very recently raided Wildside kennels too. Both Pat and Floyd's dogs were killed before the trial even started. Very upsetting indeed and the APBT community is going crazy over it.



ok ok.....now I remember...I'm thinking of Floyd's dogs and trial....thanks!.....brain fart!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

HersheyBear said:


> I find it ironic when owners of breeds formerly painted as "vicious", use the same terms put upon their breed of choice for pit bull.
> A few decades ago, the Rottweiler was the demonized breed. Before that was the Doberman, and before that was the German Shepherd. In the 1940's it was the Bloodhound, and in the early part of the century many of the same things said about pit bulls were said about _Collies_. Yes, collies.
> The darlings of today's media were the "pit bulls' of yesterday. In the early half of 1900's and in the 1800's, pit bulls were "America's Breed". They were in advertising, media, vintage photographs. Beloved family pets as well as working dogs on ranches and farms. It's entirely the fault of humans when dogs act aggressively. There's no inherently "bad breed".


Same here. It is incredible to hear how Rottweiler owners don’t trust Pit Bulls and Pit Bull owners don’t say all Chows are nasty, ect. Even today with Pit Bulls under so much bad publicity some owners of the breed actually believe that Rotts, Chows, GSDs, ect can’t be trusted. Just like those of former bad breeds think all Pits are dangerous no matter what.


Tessier9999 said:


> Not EVERY APBT was bred that way. Some people stretch the rules a bit. For example, the all famous Chinaman was an excited biter, but they look the other way since he was such an accomplish fighter. Although breeding a biter was look down upon, I wouldn't be surprise if some people look the other way with the temperament and look at the ability.


I’ve never heard that Chinaman was an excited biter. I never knew the dog and have only read of one incident of him biting. There wasn’t really any clarification on the type of bite/damage done in what I read, wish there would have been. I’ve heard only being in ill health or biting out of anxiety. Not being an aggressive man biter nor excited biter. 

1. Do you have info you can present which shows Chinaman was an excited biter?

2. Do you think that an excited biter is an aggressive man biter? I find them still to be unstable but a different type, still not fully trustworthy but less dangerous than a man aggressive dog.

3. How many Chinaman dogs do you know that are man biters whether they be excited bites or otherwise? 

4. Do you think Chinaman should have been culled?

5. I agree with some of what Zim said, but on the other hand not so sure about greed having to do with him not being culled. As he was already a replacement for a previous prospect that didn’t work out, it is likely that if he didn’t work out then he too would have been replaced. So another dog would have came along if he’d been culled for biting to begin with (probably). I think later happening with Chinaman/line were out of greed somewhat and claim to fame. 
Again #5 also applies to your statement “but they look the other way since he was such an accomplish fighter” he was not an accomplished fighter when he bit shortly after arrival. He was a skinny, uncared for prospect that had a “50/50 chance” like any other to be good fighter or not. They had no idea his ability. 
I do agree that some game man biters were bred. However most were culled and this certainly isn’t the typical APBT temperament. This is no different then show people who breed a fantastic looking dog with an off temperament or dog sports titled dogs who can be aggressive to people and unstable. It does happen in any sort of dog breeding. Shouldn’t be called the norm.


zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Some argue Chinaman's state of health as the reason he wasn't shot for biting....some argue fighting ability...I say the real motivation was greed....I also think that that's around the timeperiod the APBT started to slide downward as a breed...That's speculation on my part though...I can't prove it yet....


Can you elaborate on the greed theory? 
Fighting ability was likely not a factor. 
I do not like to bad mouth anyone, but there are things that I don’t agree with. I think later breeding and breeding the crap out of Frisco and hanging papers on Frisco dogs was a lot out of greed, bring in more money and more fame. I think Frisco #1 ROM status is kind of crap. I do not understand breeding 12 litters a year. I do not understand taking over the journal raising the prices sky high, for what? Why? Garner is already a wealthy man so I really don’t understand. Of course just because you have $ doesn’t mean you don’t want more, but to me there is a difference between trying to bring in $ and being reasonable vs seeming very greed driven. I also think to have so many offspring does less to show a dog producing ability when only a small fraction might achieve something. This is no matter what you’re breeding for. 15 conformation CHs might sound nice but not if its from 300 offspring. I do believe Chinaman was a better producer then Frisco overall, even though Frisco had the crap bred out of him, then again we can’t even be sure those are all Frisco offspring. Besides greed a lot was just fame, to be someone in the game. Not saying everyone, but some of them. Like you know it would feed their ego if they got to be known and have a reputation off their dogs. Just like anyone else breeding whatever having a big name kennel. 

Yes I do agree shortly after APBT started to go very downhill just a few years down the road. Serious problems. I do not know why some dogmen wanted to breed so much and sell so much puppies to the general public in the first place. Some are partially responsible for the breeds demize. 


zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> from what I heard I figured him for a "game testing" breeder..some who doesn't participate in organized dogfights but who fights his breeding secimens at least once before allowing them to breed....that's just a guess...
> Im not a huge fan of most Chinaman stuff....some is exceptional...a lot is not...


It is hard to have winners if not involved in organized fights. Although I don't think he is really doing much of either anymore. Seems more like just breeding now days. Although I can't be sure of course. 

LOL oh you sound like me on the line.



trickaboo said:


> sorry lil off topic of whats going on right now but this is the "ask the pit bull people" thread so...i keep reading the best way to exercise your dog is to hand walk it for like 3 miles. ive been trying to figure out what handwalking is. i read its just walking your dog period, and ive also read its when you let your dog pull during the walk. well what is it exactly?


Handwalking is just what it sounds like, walking your dog by hand (on lead). Some road work involved drag weight, so yeah they’d be pulling during the walk. I do not think that is the best way nor the worse way. It is just a way to exercise. 3 miles is not very much or long of a walk either. So I’m not sure why it would be “the best way”. These are some other ways, some are more then just a walk. It gets the dogs really going using their body and/or mind. Treadmill, jenny, flirtpole, springpole, fetch, swimming, you can also take them when you go biking which gives them a good pace to run at, rollerblading or sledding or whatever you want them to pull you on or skijoring too, agility, there are so many ways and thinks you can do for exercise. 

I’ve a few pics of Chinaman here is one.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> I agree with some of what Zim said, but on the other hand not so sure about greed having to do with him not being culled. As he was already a replacement for a previous prospect that didn’t work out, it is likely that if he didn’t work out then he too would have been replaced. So another dog would have came along if he’d been culled for biting to begin with (probably). I think later happening with Chinaman/line were out of greed somewhat and claim to fame.
> Again #5 also applies to your statement “but they look the other way since he was such an accomplish fighter” he was not an accomplished fighter when he bit shortly after arrival. He was a skinny, uncared for prospect that had a “50/50 chance” like any other to be good fighter or not. They had no idea his ability.
> I do agree that some game man biters were bred. However most were culled and this certainly isn’t the typical APBT temperament. This is no different then show people who breed a fantastic looking dog with an off temperament or dog sports titled dogs who can be aggressive to people and unstable. It does happen in any sort of dog breeding. Shouldn’t be called the norm.


I've heard and read one other story once. But the link is dead and the forum shut down....why..I don't know exactly but all those health questions about how to dress puncture wounds and administer antibiotics and DIY gash stitching made me a bit suspicious on a pit forum... desperation




Spicy1_VV said:


> Can you elaborate on the greed theory?
> Fighting ability was likely not a factor.
> I do not like to bad mouth anyone, but there are things that I don’t agree with. I think later breeding and breeding the crap out of Frisco and hanging papers on Frisco dogs was a lot out of greed, bring in more money and more fame. I think Frisco #1 ROM status is kind of crap. I do not understand breeding 12 litters a year. I do not understand taking over the journal raising the prices sky high, for what? Why? Garner is already a wealthy man so I really don’t understand. Of course just because you have $ doesn’t mean you don’t want more, but to me there is a difference between trying to bring in $ and being reasonable vs seeming very greed driven. I also think to have so many offspring does less to show a dog producing ability when only a small fraction might achieve something. This is no matter what you’re breeding for. 15 conformation CHs might sound nice but not if its from 300 offspring. I do believe Chinaman was a better producer then Frisco overall, even though Frisco had the crap bred out of him, then again we can’t even be sure those are all Frisco offspring. Besides greed a lot was just fame, to be someone in the game. Not saying everyone, but some of them. Like you know it would feed their ego if they got to be known and have a reputation off their dogs. Just like anyone else breeding whatever having a big name kennel.


Well you can't deny that greed did play at least a small factor in any dogman's actions I would think....the money was just too good for someone to be in it not at all for the money IMO.

..Chinaman...I fight with my pit bull friends about this dog a LOT lol...they are all convinced he was the greatest pit bull who ever walked this earth....I am not. 

My theory sort of sprung from a lot of the aforementioned arguments....and is pure speculation

..I kept wondering and wondering why someone would throw a sick dog into the pit....Logic would assume one would want one's dog in prime physical condition for a chance at winning...

Unless desperation was being counted on to drive Chinaman to extremes...



> After a 3-hour drive Chinaman was nauseated and dehydrated. He was pitted 10 lbs. uphill against a powerful red dog named Ch. Caesar who proceeded to mop the floor with him. When the big dog tired, Chinaman went to the stifles and punched very hard. Even though he was still nauseated and underweight he came up from the bottom to bite down and stop Caesar at: 28.


This almost sounds like the deck was *deliberatly* stacked against him...Sick and nauseated he was still put in the pit and against a dog who had a ten pound weight advantage...in a position like that many a dog would go a bit berserker....but again...its speculation...but I wouldn't put a thing like that past most of those dogmen...again...its just speculation 



Spicy1_VV said:


> Yes I do agree shortly after APBT started to go very downhill just a few years down the road. Serious problems. I do not know why some dogmen wanted to breed so much and sell so much puppies to the general public in the first place. Some are partially responsible for the breeds demize.
> 
> 
> It is hard to have winners if not involved in organized fights. Although I don't think he is really doing much of either anymore. Seems more like just breeding now days. Although I can't be sure of course.


Not directly involved...just supplying the dogs...its hearsay plus a guess based on the site and what I have been told to watch out for when assessing breeders...Im not claiming my guess as fact at all..just a guess.. I don't know too much direct stuff about him...only hearsay...



Spicy1_VV said:


> LOL oh you sound like me on the line.


Heh..I burn holes in my head examining pedigrees and comparing photos...though my assessment is based on conformation mostly. The few I have personally interacted with were very very DA...stable but very DA..



Spicy1_VV said:


> I’ve a few pics of Chinaman here is one.


Twas a pretty dog....


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## Tessier9999 (Sep 1, 2008)

> I’ve never heard that Chinaman was an excited biter. I never knew the dog and have only read of one incident of him biting. There wasn’t really any clarification on the type of bite/damage done in what I read, wish there would have been. I’ve heard only being in ill health or biting out of anxiety. Not being an aggressive man biter nor excited biter.
> 
> 1. Do you have info you can present which shows Chinaman was an excited biter?
> 
> ...


I have heard, but I don't exactly remember where, that he get a little too excited during a fight and bit a handler.

Do I think all excited biters should be culled? No, it really depends on the extent of the damage.

I have yet to meet, or know a person who do own Chinaman line APBT, for most people around here get their dogs from a BYB who said they bred Chinaman lines. I chose not to believe them.

I would not breed Chinaman, but I was not there to see it unfold so I can't make a judgment.



> I do agree that some game man biters were bred. However most were culled and this certainly isn’t the typical APBT temperament. This is no different then show people who breed a fantastic looking dog with an off temperament or dog sports titled dogs who can be aggressive to people and unstable. It does happen in any sort of dog breeding. Shouldn’t be called the norm.


I agree with this.

And about buying those pricey books, their are people who do buy them! They need to lower their prices before I am tempted.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I've heard and read one other story once. But the link is dead and the forum shut down....why..I don't know exactly but all those health questions about how to dress puncture wounds and administer antibiotics and DIY gash stitching made me a bit suspicious on a pit forum... desperation


That sucks. This story must be written elsewhere though. 

I wouldn't be suspicious, accidents can and do happen. A lot forget that, just want to go straight to calling someone a dog fighter. (not saying you, but in general)



> Well you can't deny that greed did play at least a small factor in any dogman's actions I would think....the money was just too good for someone to be in it not at all for the money IMO.


I don't think its a fact, not trying to deny something. Depends on the man. As far as money being "too good", some matched very few dogs for a couple hundred here or there. Others did not match nor were they the puppy churners. It is just the same with any other breeder, even if they did "make a little" it is ate up by the dogs and then some. 



> ..Chinaman...I fight with my pit bull friends about this dog a LOT lol...they are all convinced he was the greatest pit bull who ever walked this earth....I am not.
> 
> My theory sort of sprung from a lot of the aforementioned arguments....and is pure speculation
> 
> ...


LOL greatest to walk the earth. No certainly not IMO either. Chinaman is hyped just like Jeep and any other famed dog/bloodline. There were of course "amazing" dogs in the fighting respect but some are just more written about then others and bred a heck of a lot more. In many cases it seems that if the dog wasn't bred an outrageous amount of times he gets left out. 

Look at May Day. How can they say Chinaman is the greatest. May Day was not well, under weight, been in an accident and still won. He was not in prime condition.



> This almost sounds like the deck was *deliberatly* stacked against him...Sick and nauseated he was still put in the pit and against a dog who had a ten pound weight advantage...in a position like that many a dog would go a bit berserker....but again...its speculation...but I wouldn't put a thing like that past most of those dogmen...again...its just speculation


You are leaving out one very important thing in this quote and above "dog in prime physical condition for a chance at winning"

This was a *roll* into CH Caeser not a match. There was no win and there would be no conditioning. You do not put a dog in prime condition for a roll, you do deliberately stack odds against them. Its to look at gameness, judge ability not to win/loose. 10lbs is not unusual. Often dogs are pitted uphill for even a short roll and especially a game test. Some will also run them to tire them a little before. They want to see the dog in a not so great position, that way they can see gameness. If the dog were always "winning", always on top, never tired, always in control, never on the bad end then gameness would always be in question. Even if they were a GR CH. 

Also dogs get car sick, dogmen still roll them once they get there. So if he were or were not in that state he would still be rolled. Being underweight wasn't good but in reality just makes him less strong.

Really this scenario is no different then many others.

Counting on extreme drives though, that could back fire if the dog really was weak/sick. The adrenaline and even the gameness only carries them so far. 
A weight advantage wouldn't make the dog more driven and being car sick or weak health is a disadvantage. Some obviously will fight through that, others might stop because they end up being ill. This won't make them go on extreme drives. 



> Not directly involved...just supplying the dogs...its hearsay plus a guess based on the site and what I have been told to watch out for when assessing breeders...Im not claiming my guess as fact at all..just a guess.. I don't know too much direct stuff about him...only hearsay...


If you have winners, then you are directly involved. You are matching dogs so that is direct involvement in organized fights. Thats what I meant. I wouldn't recommend someone buy from there for sure.



> Heh..I burn holes in my head examining pedigrees and comparing photos...though my assessment is based on conformation mostly. The few I have personally interacted with were very very DA...stable but very DA..


Its just not my line, don't care for it. I've seen some nice crosses great for the show ring and weight pull track. I've seen some DA and some not.



Tessier9999 said:


> I have heard, but I don't exactly remember where, that he get a little too excited during a fight and bit a handler.
> 
> Do I think all excited biters should be culled? No, it really depends on the extent of the damage.
> 
> ...


Ok I was wondering from who or if there was a story I could read.

I also wondered if you were thinking Bullyson, to me that dog if accounts are correct sounds like he actually had some redirected aggression issues. 

I think that it shows some instability. So I'm not sure on it, serious excited biting or redirected aggression I think should be culled. There are some excited biters which I'm not sure I would call dangerous but more like dumb. As if they can't think straight when they are trying to get something like a toy or hide. 

Oh Ok I see. Unless they have the pedigree you are probably right not to believe them. I've seen people claim all kinds of lines when breeding because they bought a dog without pedigree, someone told them their dog looks like that line or its popular so they claim it. I've personally not known any thus far that are excited bites/man biters to my knowledge.



> And about buying those pricey books, their are people who do buy them! They need to lower their prices before I am tempted.


The ones on the site? I will sell some of them for less.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> That sucks. This story must be written elsewhere though.


it was an account of a bite outside of the pit..in just a normal situation. I have no clue if its true but it was posted by someone who claimed it was a memory and that he saw this happen...Im not sure if its to be believed or not. 



Spicy1_VV said:


> I wouldn't be suspicious, accidents can and do happen. A lot forget that, just want to go straight to calling someone a dog fighter. (not saying you, but in general)


The thing that made me a bit suspicious was partially the answers people got and partially the fact there was a membership only area that wasn't a pay membership...you had to do an *interview* with the admin to get into that section..that seemed a bit strange to me.




Spicy1_VV said:


> I don't think its a fact, not trying to deny something. Depends on the man. As far as money being "too good", some matched very few dogs for a couple hundred here or there. Others did not match nor were they the puppy churners. It is just the same with any other breeder, even if they did "make a little" it is ate up by the dogs and then some.


I think money was definatly a motivation for most...even if it was just money to put back into the dogs...course I really think most of those guys were a bit sick in the head...like an addiction kind of thing...



LOL greatest to walk the earth. No certainly not IMO either. Chinaman is hyped just like Jeep and any other famed dog/bloodline. There were of course "amazing" dogs in the fighting respect but some are just more written about then others and bred a heck of a lot more. In many cases it seems that if the dog wasn't bred an outrageous amount of times he gets left out. 

Look at May Day. How can they say Chinaman is the greatest. May Day was not well, under weight, been in an accident and still won. He was not in prime condition.




Spicy1_VV said:


> You are leaving out one very important thing in this quote and above "dog in prime physical condition for a chance at winning"
> 
> This was a *roll* into CH Caeser not a match. There was no win and there would be no conditioning. You do not put a dog in prime condition for a roll, you do deliberately stack odds against them. Its to look at gameness, judge ability not to win/loose. 10lbs is not unusual. Often dogs are pitted uphill for even a short roll and especially a game test. Some will also run them to tire them a little before. They want to see the dog in a not so great position, that way they can see gameness. If the dog were always "winning", always on top, never tired, always in control, never on the bad end then gameness would always be in question. Even if they were a GR CH.
> 
> ...


thank you for the correction...like I have said many times...im still learning...and sometimes I miss things being the slight touch of ditz that I can be...that why You are awesome to be able to talk to Spicy...I can pick your brains for all that I miss....




Spicy1_VV said:


> If you have winners, then you are directly involved. You are matching dogs so that is direct involvement in organized fights. Thats what I meant. I wouldn't recommend someone buy from there for sure.


ok I see...




Spicy1_VV said:


> Its just not my line, don't care for it. I've seen some nice crosses great for the show ring and weight pull track. I've seen some DA and some not]


What I have seen around here is one really really pretty boy with stable temperment and good conformation at forty pounds.....and six squabbling snarly DA dogs who to a tee showed overdone submissve behaviors towards humans for no apparent reason...out of the same litter.

That sort of backs up what I have read about the line..(Ive been puppy visiting recently)




Spicy1_VV said:


> The ones on the site? I will sell some of them for less.


erp. YOU ARE?!?!? I haven't bought any yet...been saving my cash....Most of those books are REALLY hard to find...Especially around here....and on the net I can only find them at insane prices. I did find half of a Stratton book at a yard sale...yes half...the spine had been split down the middle...I've hunted down copies of three of them to borrow(and belatedly return)

but in truth id love to own every book on that list...


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

I just wanted to thank Zim and pugmom for the info. I've been reading a lot, and it's all really interesting. I think a pit bull may have jumped a few spots on the "next potential breed list" for me.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CerbiesMom said:


> I just wanted to thank Zim and pugmom for the info. I've been reading a lot, and it's all really interesting. I think a pit bull may have jumped a few spots on the "next potential breed list" for me.


Its good to see forethought going into it before getting one. I didn't do my research in the beginning and made a terrible mistake that could easily have been prevented. 
if you have any questions on what you have been reading please ask..I will answer and then Spicy will correct me where I fall short...I have been researching for sooo long but I still don't know everything..There isn't a point were you stop learning either...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OK, I thought of this one today. If a pit-type dog ends up in a shelter, should there be "special" temperment tests or special requirements for adopters, or should it be the same as with any other dog?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Willowy said:


> OK, I thought of this one today. If a pit-type dog ends up in a shelter, should there be "special" temperment tests or special requirements for adopters, or should it be the same as with any other dog?


I think ideally there should be special adoption requirements..but the TT should be the same for an dog. 

the most particular special adoption requirement should be a criminal background check IMO and if you have a felony within the last five years or have any animal abuse charges on your record or have any pending case against you at all then the adoption should be denied.

The other thing I think you should be required to present is veterinary references stating you have owned a dog before and were consistent in taking that dog to the vet. If you have not owned a dog before you should be required to take a test on the knowledge you have of the breed..


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> it was an account of a bite outside of the pit..in just a normal situation. I have no clue if its true but it was posted by someone who claimed it was a memory and that he saw this happen...Im not sure if its to be believed or not.


Hmmm, its possibly true but then again maybe not. I've read and been told varying stories about bullyson (not the man biting part but the match) from people who said they were there or their grandpa, uncle, ect was yet there is always a different version. Although could be true, certainly not impossible. 



> The thing that made me a bit suspicious was partially the answers people got and partially the fact there was a membership only area that wasn't a pay membership...you had to do an *interview* with the admin to get into that section..that seemed a bit strange to me.


Yes that is suspicious but maybe they want to keep the idiots out. IDK seems strange for an interview anyway, you can just lie your way in I assume. People with the internet these days. I feel much safer to talk freely (but not illegally) with encrypted chat because of the HSUS BS at this time. They are taking down dog fighters so if you have those bloodlines guilty by association perhaps in the future bust people based on their dogs pedigrees alone. There are of course dog fighters online who talk about their activities, membership only isn't going to save them from the law. Honestly with the Feds being online, owning APBT pedigree site + the hackers they hire to work for them outsourcing do people honestly believe membership only is safe. Hopefully if your suspicious are correct the morons were busted and that is why the site is down. I've seen a number down that were due to talking about illegal activities. 



> I think money was definatly a motivation for most...even if it was just money to put back into the dogs...course I really think most of those guys were a bit sick in the head...like an addiction kind of thing...


I don't consider putting money back into dogs motivation, maybe a plus. Even good breeders "make" $ which is already spent on the dogs/put back into dogs, but it isn't their motivation to breed. Same with show dogs winning the big prizes, at least I hope that isn't their motivation in showing. 

I think that with or without money they'd still be fighting dogs, at least many would. I also think the money made by most is very little usually. I think some are crazy when you almost loose your house because your dog lost, WTF were they thinking? They only care to make $$$ and just in it for the matching, they don't think about the consequences just like someone with other addictions. They are jeopardizing their life and their families well being. So I agree some is an obsession or addiction like those with gambling problem or adrenaline junkies. Others it just a cheap thrill adrenaline rush and then those others who believe they are truly keeping the breed correct in their mind. I've learned that theory is kind of a crock of bull. Thats another subject all together though. 



> thank you for the correction...like I have said many times...im still learning...and sometimes I miss things being the slight touch of ditz that I can be...that why You are awesome to be able to talk to Spicy...I can pick your brains for all that I miss....


I'm still learning too and hopefully keep at it. I've no problem talking dogs or trying to explain. We need to share the knowledge. I think it is a responsibility to share knowledge of your breed or even dogs in general. 



> What I have seen around here is one really really pretty boy with stable temperment and good conformation at forty pounds.....and six squabbling snarly DA dogs who to a tee showed overdone submissve behaviors towards humans for no apparent reason...out of the same litter.
> 
> That sort of backs up what I have read about the line..(Ive been puppy visiting recently)


Yes some are shy, but some are not. It all goes back to the specific parents and pedigree I suppose. There are plenty who are hot but again some are fairly mellow (even live with other dogs no problems). 



> erp. YOU ARE?!?!? I haven't bought any yet...been saving my cash....Most of those books are REALLY hard to find...Especially around here....and on the net I can only find them at insane prices. I did find half of a Stratton book at a yard sale...yes half...the spine had been split down the middle...I've hunted down copies of three of them to borrow(and belatedly return)
> 
> but in truth id love to own every book on that list...


Yeah I think I will. They are not doing me any good sitting here. Have to dig out and see what all I have duplicate wise and stuff. Also the magazines I have.



Willowy said:


> OK, I thought of this one today. If a pit-type dog ends up in a shelter, should there be "special" temperment tests or special requirements for adopters, or should it be the same as with any other dog?


No I don't think special requirements just because the dog is a Pit Bull type or possibly Pit/Pit mix. 

They should be temperament tested as all dogs should. I'm not sure what type of special testing there would even be, but I feel that all dogs need to be tested, observed and ideally worked with/in foster home when able. A TT can only tell you so much. I know not all shelters have the resources but it would sure help if more were put into dogs of all breeds to not only weed out the bad ones but help increase chances of adoption for others. 

I think a requirement would be ideally having them read a good piece of literature on the breed (if they've not had a Pit/whatever breed before or haven't already researched) to make sure they understand what they are getting. Some people just see a dog at the shelter and want that dog but need to make sure they understand possible traits of that breed both good and bad. 

I also like Zims idea of 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the most particular special adoption requirement should be a criminal background check IMO and if you have a felony within the last five years or have any animal abuse charges on your record or have any pending case against you at all then the adoption should be denied.


But I think that should be for all dogs. Why would we want to give someone with abuse charges any dog? Unless that person is actually changed in heart then I wouldn't want them having another dog/cat whatever. The felony charges I also agree with to an extent because it could show irresponsibility, especially if it is a pattern. If they made a mistake in life and changed their life then there is no problem with them adopting once their life is stable and some time has passed. 



> The other thing I think you should be required to present is veterinary references stating you have owned a dog before and were consistent in taking that dog to the vet. If you have not owned a dog before you should be required to take a test on the knowledge you have of the breed..


I think a vet ref. is again good when adopting any breed. Most rescues want vet and personal refs. As far as not having a vet ref. I don't see how that is relevant to taking a breed test. The 2 seem unrelated requirements. Someone could have owned a dog, did regular vet care but not been responsible in other ways or lack the knowledge they need for a breed. Doing both might be an idea.

Maybe breed test would be a good idea to find out what people know about the breed that they are adopting. I don't think these should be special requirements for Pit Bulls only. Maybe after an application and test, if needed they could read the literature if needed and be given other info. A lot of shelters now days do require apps (some still hand over dogs without much of any requirement and some only want applications when adopting a certain dog) to learn more about your dog experience, family and lifestyle to help match you with the proper dog and make sure they go to a forever home. Some also want references like a rescue. A few shelters have people who are involved with rescue or do volunteer work that actually do home checks too.


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## ninarasc (Aug 24, 2008)

I have a 3 year old Katrina rescue and I obviously have no clue on her history. A lot of people have said that she looks like she has pit in her but some people have said no way. Just curious if you see any pit in her? Thanks!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Yeah maybe, or not. It is always possible. I would never say no way, but would never say certainly.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ninarasc said:


> I have a 3 year old Katrina rescue and I obviously have no clue on her history. A lot of people have said that she looks like she has pit in her but some people have said no way. Just curious if you see any pit in her? Thanks!



height? weight? 

and a standing side view?

it would help to make a better call.


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## ninarasc (Aug 24, 2008)

Ok here are some other angles...She is about 45-50 lbs and she comes up to my knees (im 5'2) so not very tall but medium size...


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

looks like a very possible pit/shepherd mix too me ...what ever she is..she is very cute!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

My sister and my best friend own dogs from the same litter. Their Mom was pit and their pop was a GSD. Their father is confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt. Their faces are more pit looking but their bodies are almost identical to your dog. Their siblings are owned by another friend and one of the females has a face identical to your dog. 

I can see about getting some pics if you would like but based on that Id say pitxGSD is a very likely thing.


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

I have a question on energy levels of Pit bulls. Everything I've read has said that they're energetic and tireless, etc. How long is an average daily excercise schedule for you pit bull owners?

My heeler mix and my smaller doxie are my hyper guys, and we go for anywhere between 1-5 miles of walking a day, depending on what else we do that day.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CerbiesMom said:


> I have a question on energy levels of Pit bulls. Everything I've read has said that they're energetic and tireless, etc. How long is an average daily excercise schedule for you pit bull owners?
> 
> My heeler mix and my smaller doxie are my hyper guys, and we go for anywhere between 1-5 miles of walking a day, depending on what else we do that day.



It varies from dog to dog of course but generally they are very high energy, especially as puppies. I know one friend came over while I was puppysitting a pit pup and was seriously scared of this two month old puppy because he quite literally was bouncing off the walls. he would rush at the wall then leap at it and repeat for about two hours, growling the whole time..

My dogs are on the high energy end of the spectrum. Two hour walk then flirtpole, maybe some treadmill if the weather is bad then some wagon pulling or pulling me on rollerblades then some flirt pole all interspersed with training sessions and mental stimulation games for a total of about seven hours worth of exercise per day.

but I've known others who just want to sleep all day long.


If you are worried about energy levels and still want one I would suggest an older dog from rescue. That way you can know how the dog is with kids cats other dogs and energy levels. 
The thing about


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I think Zim's suggestion about an older dog is a good one. Smokey is mellow, as mellow can be...Lily is a spaz and needs exercise, and a lot of it. Too bad my treadmill got broken, so I'm dealing with a spazzy puppy in the house because I'm not going for a walk in 10F weather and snow, lol.


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## jcw1503 (Nov 17, 2008)

Yeah the older would be a good idea, my friends have older pits and they are rather mellow, but my sisters 7 month old has been wild since day 1...we walk it for an hour, then let it play with a smaller dog for and hour, then my grandma's 5 year old boxer plays with him for about and hour, then my gsd/lab mix plays for about an hour and a hlaf, and that dog still goes...we jokingly say that we should go rescue about 4 to 5 more dogs just so we could interchange them in and out to get him tired, but hopefully some of the energy goes away when he gets neutured this month!!!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

CerbiesMom said:


> I have a question on energy levels of Pit bulls. Everything I've read has said that they're energetic and tireless, etc. How long is an average daily excercise schedule for you pit bull owners?
> 
> My heeler mix and my smaller doxie are my hyper guys, and we go for anywhere between 1-5 miles of walking a day, depending on what else we do that day.


Not all are. It depends on the breeding and the individual dog. Some are really relaxed and others have a lot of energy. Some just want to cuddle unless you get them going and others are relentless if you don't give them exercise they will find things to do themselves. Like running around the house like a maniac. 

I used to walk mine about 4 miles a day and that worked out ok. Although they'd also get some running around, flirtpole and springpole. Sometimes treadmill, drag weight or weight pull. It just depended on the day. The 4 miles was just a general daily walk. It was fine for them, I had one more active dog at that time so I'd try to give her some other things to do and the others just love the springpole in general, its fun for them.

Now I have some that are moderate energy, a few high energy and some that are laid back kind of lazy.


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## ninarasc (Aug 24, 2008)

That would be great if you could get some pics! I'd love to see a dog that looks somewhat like her!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

My APBT is on the moderate side....she is good w/a long walk and about a half hour of flirt/fetch/tug play

I think she could do more...and we do in the summer..but she is ok with this amount (not bouncing off the walls inside)


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

Cerbie, my big guy, would do backflips off of a couch in my bedroom when he was a puppy. It scared me. I was convinced he'd break his neck one day. He's also tireless. We do the walk, as I mentioned before, he has a giant egg he herds around the backyard that I have to drag him away from, we do training excercises, and we have playdates with several neighbor and family dos throughout the week. We also hit the dogpark ( our park is full of regulars, and I know what times to go, and we go in a group so we can tell stupid ppl to get out of our park) about once a week for a good 4-5 hours. And he's never been tired. He'll sleep for 10 minutes on the way home, then he's ready all over again.


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## Sit_Stay (Sep 7, 2008)

My friends Pit Bull almost killed me one day out of nowhere. I was standing on their deck, and she zoomed around and head butted me behind the knee. Almost pushed me down the stairs.

Brat. LOL


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

My sister's boxer did that to me. Ran under me and knocked both my legs out from under me. Cerbie grabbed her by the neck, threw her down, and wouldn't let her back up until I stood back up and he knew I was ok.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Sit_Stay said:


> My friends Pit Bull almost killed me one day out of nowhere. I was standing on their deck, and she zoomed around and head butted me behind the knee. Almost pushed me down the stairs.
> 
> Brat. LOL


Yes you have to watch that. I've taken my fair share of blows, fallen, ect. I've got bruises right now from zoomies or dogs not watching what they were doing.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

Diesel is like a "Calm Storm". He is very mellow but tireless...very weird combo. He takes it to any level that the other party wants to take it to...and he won't quit until they do...I also work him out numerous hours each and every day. When he runs by you at full speed, it sounds just like a horse...except at a faster cadence.


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## ceejay865 (Mar 9, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> For those really curious or just vaguely interested...
> 
> If you have question about Pit Bulls...post it here and myself and others will be more than willing to answer..
> 
> Anything...from details of ownership to breed history and beyond...Please ask


"I have a four year old male pitbull terrier. My girlfriend has a smaller 1 year old male mutt. We are trying to "socialize" our dogs, with great caution of course, on leashes and in the yard. Is there any advice on other/better methods to socialize these two dogs? The pitbull is a loving and caring companion that loves all people. The mutt is still very "puppy-ish" with high energy but is very loving and sweet dog. Please send advice about the best ways to "socialize" and interact these dogs so that the "possiblitly" of a problem is less likely occur. Please be advised it is well understood that these dogs will never be left alone together or allowed to "roam free" together. Both owners of each dog are very competent and understanding of the "innate characteristics" of pitbull terriers. Thank you for your insight and assistance!?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Take them for walks together, walks are great bonding experiences.

Make sure to implement N.I.L.I.F with both dogs, there is a sticky in the training thread.


I've got a question...

Is there a certain age that is most common for pitty's to experience new Dog Aggression, or have no studies been done?


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## GeorgeGlass (Jun 5, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Take them for walks together, walks are great bonding experiences.
> 
> Make sure to implement N.I.L.I.F with both dogs, there is a sticky in the training thread.
> 
> ...


The general rule is even if a pit bull has never shown dog aggression as a puppy, it may begin to show dog aggressiveness around age two or three.

Not all pit bulls are dog aggressive. But it is a common trait of the breed to be aware of.


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## duchess0308 (Feb 10, 2009)

I have this lab mix femal who we think has pit in her but we're not sure. We've had her for about four months now and she has a lot of energy except for when she's in the house. Her face is a diamond shape and way wider than a labs with her snout shorter than it's supposed to be. She's very stocky in the limbs and has a wide chest and stands with her shoulders pushed forward. If she doesn't want you to have something, she will clench her teeth, almost like she's locking her jaw. She stands about knee height and has a white marking that starts at her chin and travels down to her chest where it widens slightly. She also has a white claw on her hind foot.

Here's a picture of her:


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

GeorgeGlass said:


> The general rule is even if a pit bull has never shown dog aggression as a puppy, it may begin to show dog aggressiveness around age two or three.
> 
> Not all pit bulls are dog aggressive. But it is a common trait of the breed to be aware of.


BUT a Pit Bull can become DA anytime in it's life. Even if it's been with it's dog friend for years, it can just one day stop liking it's friend and you'll have to crate and rotate from that point out.




duchess0308 said:


> I have this lab mix femal who we think has pit in her but we're not sure. We've had her for about four months now and she has a lot of energy except for when she's in the house. Her face is a diamond shape and way wider than a labs with her snout shorter than it's supposed to be. She's very stocky in the limbs and has a wide chest and stands with her shoulders pushed forward. If she doesn't want you to have something, she will clench her teeth, almost like she's locking her jaw. She stands about knee height and has a white marking that starts at her chin and travels down to her chest where it widens slightly. She also has a white claw on her hind foot.
> 
> Here's a picture of her:


Many Lab mixes are mistaken for Pit Bulls. There was actually a case up in Canada, where Pit Bulls are banned, of a purebred CKC Black Lab that was labeled as a Pit Bull, taken away from it's owners and kept in a shelter for months until the courts decided to look at the paperwork. They got the dog back, but the do had many issues like that.



My Carter here was labeled a Boxer/Lab mix. He looks very Pitty to me until I actually owned a Pit Bull. The Lab in him makes him look very strongly like a Pit Mix. If there was a ban, he would have been labeled as a Pit mix under the ban. Especially true in black dogs. 

Just keep an eye out for local Breed Specific Laws (BSLs) and enjoy the new pup.


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## duchess0308 (Feb 10, 2009)

I forgot to add her picture. Here it is:


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## ceejay865 (Mar 9, 2009)

GeorgeGlass said:


> The general rule is even if a pit bull has never shown dog aggression as a puppy, it may begin to show dog aggressiveness around age two or three.
> 
> Not all pit bulls are dog aggressive. But it is a common trait of the breed to be aware of.



Question: What is the best way to discipline your pit when dog aggression is shown (i.e. hackles up, teeth showing, snapping)? I don't want to instill fear in the dog because that doesn't help the "socializing" aspect of other dog relationships my pit has, but I also want him to know that I mean business and that his behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Any suggestions?? Thanks!


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## GeorgeGlass (Jun 5, 2008)

ceejay865 said:


> Question: What is the best way to discipline your pit when dog aggression is shown (i.e. hackles up, teeth showing, snapping)? I don't want to instill fear in the dog because that doesn't help the "socializing" aspect of other dog relationships my pit has, but I also want him to know that I mean business and that his behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Any suggestions?? Thanks!


Wait for more of an expert to chime in, because I've only had Snyder for 9 months or so, but here's what's worked for me. (Sharing primarily for the benefit of the experts to criticize/correct me if I'm doing it wrong.)

Snyder has done this a few times on walks when he sees one of maybe three dogs. (He doesn't show aggression with most dogs so far.) I usually give Snyder a "NO!" Then a "watch me!" He's gotten pretty good with that, and he usually calms down when focused on my eyes. I praise him and sometimes run through some other tricks. Then I do a "Let's go!" and he starts walking, usually I'm walking in the opposite direction of the disliked dog when we go.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I would throw the thought of "discipline" right out the door....We have a member on here ( Zim )you may want to pm her she has lots of experience with helping DA dogs.....I will tell you what worked w/my good friend who had a very seriously DA pit .....she called a dog trainer that specialized in working with bully dogs and started obedience training x10!!.....they worked a lot on the "watch me" command and "leave it"....some pits cannot be "broken" of their DA but you can manage it .....my friends dog can now walk past other dogs and be in a crate around her other pits....but he will never play with another dog.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

If I couldn't tolerate dog aggression I wouldn't own a Pit Bull.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

exactly!!!!!!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ceejay865 said:


> Question: What is the best way to discipline your pit when dog aggression is shown (i.e. hackles up, teeth showing, snapping)? I don't want to instill fear in the dog because that doesn't help the "socializing" aspect of other dog relationships my pit has, but I also want him to know that I mean business and that his behavior is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Any suggestions?? Thanks!


the way to discipline dog aggression is to forget the word "discipline" altogether.


your key magic tool is going to be "redirection". this means refocusing the dog's attention. 


watch your dog's reactions to other dogs very very closely. take note of several things. what the dog's body is doing....are the ears erect? are they pointing forward or laid back? is the tail up, straight out or tucked? Is the tail wagging or is it still? Is the dog crouched? Is the dog barking, snarling or snapping or is the dog silent? Make little mental or even physical notes about every little thing your dog is dooing when the react to other dogs. the answers to these questions, with a bit of research will reveal what type of aggression you are looking at. Once you truly understand the problem you will be able to build an appropriate management strategy. 

homework assignment:

read EVERY sticky in the training forum 100%.


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