# Now that I'm the leader, dog is very submissive



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

We picked up a shelter dog, he's 8 months old, neutered, australian cattle dog / brittany spaniel mix. I love this dog! I'm very committed to fostering a good relationship with him that will be beneficial for both of us. As a first time dog owner I knew pretty much nothing coming in. I let him sleep on the bed, babied him, fed him first, etc. When I started noticing that he was listening less and being less friendly I looked up some articles on establishing yourself as the alpha figure. I did this by:

- Making eye contact until the dog breaks it, and then praising him.
- Eating before him, taking food he is eating and having him sit to get it back.
- Walking through him while he's standing up, sorta plowing him out of the way (not in a forceful way - just saying "You gotta get out of my way").
- Walking out of and into doorways first and staying ahead during the walks.

I noticed a huge turn around in his behavior. He can sit, shake, lie down, and get in his crate for a treat (or if you make it look like you have a treat). With me in particular, I can tell that he is willing to sit even when there is no treat coming because of my alpha seniority.

The problem I have come to is this: now that I have come to be in a dominant position over him, he seems overly submissive. When I go to pet him he rolls on his back, looks far away from me, acts nervous, and eventually pushes me away and growls. When we first got him he loved the affection and would always come up into my lap. I'm worried that by being a firm leader I'm pushing away the affectionate aspect of the relationship. I don't want that! In fact, we picked him at the shelter because he was outgoing and friendly, coming up and putting his head in both my and my girlfriend's laps.

As far as negative enforcement, the only things are I have been consistently telling him to get off of the couch. At first I'd calmly take him of and gently say "No, no. Not for dogs." and slide him onto the ground, and then praise him and say good boy and give him a treat for lying down on the ground. As he continued to do it, I got into a habit of saying "No!" sharply, not quite yelling, and taking him off of the couch a little more forceably but still having him lie down and stay for a treat. Finally this most recent time he was about to jump up and I let out a startling yell "NO!" and he jumped, and trotted away quickly. Was I too harsh? He had so many warnings. :\

I take him for plenty of walks, we fetch in the house, so I think he has enough exercise and food and treats. I've had two experiences of growling:

1) The first instance: he came over to me, hopped up into my lap after being invited, and enjoyed some rubs. Usually when I stop rubbing him he pokes his head into my hands for more. Then he did the submissive rolling onto his back maneuver with one rear leg in the air. I kept at it with a tummy rub and he started growling and showing me his teeth. I just left him alone.

2) The second time started the same, but instead of just backing off I backed up and stood tall and made eye contact with him. He bared his teeth, lips curled, for quite a while we stared at each other.. it lasted longer than any other stare-down has lasted and eventually he gave in, came to me, licked my feet, followed me around, and was nice again.

A few other things have been on the increase: now when he jumps up on us we get a lot more claw contact which is unpleasant and he doesn't really come to me for affection unless he wants a treat.

I want to do the right thing and I've been working 24/7 on doing right by my pup, so any tips would be greatly appreciated. (Keep in mind I've read most of the articles that are easily found about basic manners, aggressiveness, alpha roles, crate training, etc.


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Alpha dominance theory in dogs was debunked decades ago. I suggest reading up on positive reinforcement training instead. Look for work by Ian Dunbar, Karen Pryor, Patricia McConnell etc. You have established yourself as a bully and he is now afraid of you.

Some reading on why dominance theory isn't helpful in understanding and working with dogs: http://k9domain.web.officelive.com/alpha_theory.aspx
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/2297


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Are you sure that the teeth baring is aggressive in nature or is it just "talking"? Some dogs will "smile" & grumbling that's not a bad thing. 

Oh & that dominance theory is very debunked , I wouldn't continue with that alpha, rigid, "I'm the boss" dog whisper methods. IMO they take away some of the fun of having a dog (I love the little perks they have  ). Dr Sophia Yin has a great site on this subject : http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance/ 

You can also search for her videos on. You tube.


----------



## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

I think you already know the answer to your post..
Read what you wrote and think about it.


----------



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

His behavior did improve a lot when I started to follow these instructions:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdogrules.htm

And for a while he was still being quite friendly. When I first got him he would pull on his leash a LOT while walking, he would refuse to sleep in his crate, etc and whine and bark until we would let him in bed. And while I do follow a few instructions to make him think I'm a pack leader I still only use only positive reinforcement while teaching, with the except of sharp "no"'s.

So I should go back to letting the dog go through doorways first and having him pull on the leash and everything?

Thanks for the resources I will look at them presently. Any more tips would be appreciated. I'm reluctant to believe being the pack leader is a bad idea, from what I understand it's quite possible to have the respect that goes with being leader while (and perhaps even more so) having the affectionate, positive, trusting relationship that comes from positive reinforcement training. As in, the stuff I've read has explicitly said so.


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Yes you can be the dogs leader and have a good relationship but you don't need to physically dominate your dog for it to know you are the leader. A good leader is a benevolent leader. If you can earn your dogs trust back and work on positive training with him he will happily work for you without you needing to make him afraid of you.

Can you accomplish what you want (a dog that follows your commands and doesn't pull on leash?) by following dominance theory? Yes, you've seen that, but it will also hurt your relationship as you have also seen.

I encourage you to read all the stickies on this forum and gather as much information as you can from the knowledgeable people here.


----------



## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

dans595 said:


> His behavior did improve a lot when I started to follow these instructions:
> 
> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdogrules.htm
> 
> ...


Try using common sense in training ..and take interweb advice less seriosly.


----------



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

Roloni - common sense, to me, meant treating him like I would a person. Sleeping in the bed, going up on the couch, if he wanted to pull on the leash I'd let him have his way and so on. It panned out very poorly! I think common sense isn't going to work for somebody with no experience with dogs! That's why I'm looking at "interweb" resources (many more than just a few) and coming onto this forum.

We'll be going to a basic manners class once he's completely over his cough which should be pretty soon!


----------



## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

dans595 said:


> His behavior did improve a lot when I started to follow these instructions:
> 
> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/topdogrules.htm


Sadly, there's a lot of bad info in that article and you've seen the result of putting into practice.



dans595 said:


> I'm reluctant to believe being the pack leader is a bad idea


You might find this informative, Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals by the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior as well as some of the other links posted in this thread.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dans595 said:


> The problem I have come to is this: now that I have come to be in a dominant position over him, he seems overly submissive. When I go to pet him he rolls on his back, looks far away from me, acts nervous, and eventually pushes me away and growls. When we first got him he loved the affection and would always come up into my lap. I'm worried that by being a firm leader I'm pushing away the affectionate aspect of the relationship. I don't want that! In fact, we picked him at the shelter because he was outgoing and friendly, coming up and putting his head in both my and my girlfriend's laps.
> 
> As far as negative enforcement, the only things are I have been consistently telling him to get off of the couch. At first I'd calmly take him of and gently say "No, no. Not for dogs." and slide him onto the ground, and then praise him and say good boy and give him a treat for lying down on the ground. As he continued to do it, I got into a habit of saying "No!" sharply, not quite yelling, and taking him off of the couch a little more forceably but still having him lie down and stay for a treat. Finally this most recent time he was about to jump up and I let out a startling yell "NO!" and he jumped, and trotted away quickly. Was I too harsh? He had so many warnings. :\
> 
> ...


This is what a dog will do to show submission to another dog. Since you are acting like a dog ( a dog who is a bully) I'm not sure why you'd expect something different. Quit glaring at your dog and doing all the stupid alpha stuff. Instead interact with him, keep your eyes soft and ask for him to give you a behavior for things he wants. Look into positive motivation based training methods that don't rely on all that silly dominant/submissive voodoo. It's likely that you haven't permanently broken him yet.


----------



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

I wanted to say that several people have said that the way I've followed the instructions I found online about being an alpha-figure for your dog "bullying." That really makes me feel bad as I've been researching night and day and doing my damn best to try to do the right thing for this dog. My impression was that being a kind, consistent, calm, assertive leader for your dog would do wonders for making the dog more comfortable and confident.

*Like I said, all that I've done in the way of "bullying" is 1) walk through doorways first, 2) if the dog is staring me down I'll not look away first, 3) I try not to walk around him and instead go over him or if he's standing up I'll move him, 4) eating before him. Further, the only negative reinforcement I've used is saying "no" at various intensities and in the case of chewing on things, removed the objects from his mouth.*

I'm a nice and conscientious person at heart, with people and with animals, and it is very important to me to be so. I wouldn't do anything to a dog that I consider mean or bullying, and these four things I've listed truly do not seem mean to me.

That said I'm more than willing to reconsider my tactics. I'm not sure if you guys actually read my original post and saw these four measures listed and still consider me a dog bully, or if you just see somebody say the word "alpha" or "dominant" and say "oh, that's debunked and you're a bully." Hopefully the latter!

I'm looking at all the links people have posted here. The majority of them offer no alternative approach, but at least one does, so I'll check that out (slash, I already have been trying to implement it from the beginning). The one that I read most thoroughly was terribly written, it contained an implicit contradiction, a hasty generalization, and out of context definitions. I find it really hard to stomach illogical articles and take them to heart.

I'll say that to me, leader and alpha-figure mean the same thing. I should probably say leader instead because alpha-figure, I am finding out, is a rather loaded term. Correct me if I am wrong, but none of the resources cited here say that you should not be the leader of your dog, but in fact they are just saying not to bully your dog, to avoid negative reinforcement, and that positive reinforcement creates behavior modification which is more effective and healthy for the dog. My approach from the beginning was to be a calm-assertive, consistent leader and use only positive reinforcement to foster a consistent and friendly relationship with my dog.

@Pawzk9: I do try to ask for a behavior when I know he wants something. It's an easy no-brainer with treats. Getting him to sit before I throw a ball is a little tougher because he's all riled up, but it works a little. He doesn't get super excited about walks just yet, I think that's because I take him out so many times per day (four 15-45 minute walks) and he doesn't get a chance to yearn for it.

So if I may ask two more questions:

1) Given the bold part above, do you really think I am bullying my dog? You honestly think he's afraid of me? If so, I'll feel quite bad!
2) If the answer is no, my original question goes unanswered... why would he come to me asking for me to pet him and then growl at me for it?


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Quite honestly I DO treat my dog "like a people" (as I endearingly put it), but I still also treat her like a dog. No dominance involved--she even sleeps in my bed! I am her leader and also her equal. We eat at the SAME time--breakfast when we wake up and dinner when I get home from work. She often ends up through doorways first because honestly it's kind of hard to go through first myself when she's excited about going for a ride, although we are working on "door manners"--sit-stay to go out, sit-stay before coming in. But that isn't the same as dominating her; I do it to keep her mind working and to keep her feeling like she's got something to do. When she is in my way, a simple "excuse me" and she moves--something I taught inadvertently, actually! Saying "no" is okay, but I do it firmly, yet gently. No yelling. You don't have to dominate, and yes, there IS a difference between leadership and dominating.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The FIRST thing I taught my dog was to stare into my eyes. This is a good thing! It gets your dog really focused on you. Any time I say Casper's name, or hold up a treat or toy he wants, he sits and bores holes through my eyes with his own, haha. He's waiting for me to tell him what to do to get a reward. 

I trained this by holding a treat at the level of my face, but away from my face. He'd stare at the treat, of course, but I wouldn't give it to him until he glanced at me, at which point I'd stuff it in his mouth. He learned very quickly that putting his attention on me instead of the treat got him that reward! Now he will sit and stare at me to communicate when he wants something. But he is certainly not thinking he's above me in some sort of ranking system -- he realizes that good things come from me.

I love to quote this article from Ian Dunbar's site (he is one of the world's foremost authorities on dog behavior and can be trusted _much_ more than a random article on a site full of misinformation):



> From an assortment of books, I have discovered the following cautionary “advice” for owners. Never let a dog stare or jump-up, never stand, crouch or kneel down in front of a dog, never look a dog in the eyes, or reach over his head, never loom over a dog and reach down around his neck, never get down on the floor or allow a dog to stand over you, never give a dog food treats or human food, never allow a dog to eat before the family or go out of a door first, never allow a dog on furniture, upstairs, in the bedroom, or on the bed, never let a dog mount your leg, never let a puppy mouth or bite, and never play chase, tug o' war, or play-fight with a dog. Instead, novice owners are routinely advised to enforce “elevation dominance”, “dominance down-stays”, physical restraint and discipline and especially, the “alpha-rollover” — grabbing a dog by the jowls and forcing him onto his back.
> 
> All of these recommendations destroy the fun and enjoyment of living with a dog, most recommendations are just too silly for words, some are counterproductive and others are downright dangerous.
> 
> The above behaviors and actions were misconstrued as the dog's intention of dominating people even though these behaviors and situations have absolutely nothing at all to do with social rank or aggression during dog-human interactions. Basically, if an owner is OK with the dog’s behavior, then there is no problem, whereas if the owner is worried about the dog’s behavior and can neither prevent nor control it, then there is a problem.


Now, you did have issues with your dog's behavior, and you're right to want to change them. But forget the silliness about plowing past your dog, making him walk behind you, and intimidating him with your stare. It sounds like he definitely is nervous around you and unsure of how to act. You want him to be a happy and confident dog, right? You need to teach him what you expect of him, and for that I recommend the "Nothing In Life Is Free" training philosophy. It's super easy, a lot of it is common sense, and it works. Read about it here. 

Also, here is an excellent roundup of what dominance theory is, what it was based on, and why it's wrong. It also explains the difference between "dominance" and "leadership" that you touched on in your above post. It's worth a read for sure.

(Edited to change the NILIF link to one that explained it better. It's not a "hard and fast rule" kind of program, so there are a lot of different interpretations out there.)


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Yeah that's something I forgot to mention--we are also working on attention!


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

dans595 said:


> *Like I said, all that I've done in the way of "bullying" is 1) walk through doorways first, 2) if the dog is staring me down I'll not look away first, 3) I try not to walk around him and instead go over him or if he's standing up I'll move him, 4) eating before him. Further, the only negative reinforcement I've used is saying "no" at various intensities and in the case of chewing on things, removed the objects from his mouth.*
> 
> 1) Given the bold part above, do you really think I am bullying my dog? You honestly think he's afraid of me? If so, I'll feel quite bad!
> 2) If the answer is no, my original question goes unanswered... why would he come to me asking for me to pet him and then growl at me for it?


I honestly think he's afraid of you. Based on what you described of his actions (rolling on his back, looking away, acting nervous) he is saying "I am a lowly little puppy, I'm not threat to you, please don't hurt me, I'll do whatever you ask".

Are you sure he was asking for you to pet him? It sounds like he was just being submissive but maybe you pet him in place where he is sore or in a threatening manner, were you staring at him or did you reach over top of his head? Both of those can be seen as a threat to a dog especially one that doesn't fully trust you.

As for your bolded statements. 1. This isn't really necessary but if you prefer to go through first for safety reasons it it is fine to teach door manners, just ask for a wait or a sit. 2. Staring at a dog is actually considered rude and sometimes a threat. Dogs stare at each other just before a fight breaks out. You can counter condition dogs with positive training so that they don't find staring from humans so threatening. 3. This I would consider bullying. If anyone especially a trusted friend started plowing through me for no good reason I would not be their friend much longer. If you need to get by it would be much nicer to just ask your dog to move, teach a command for it. Any time you feel the need to use any kind of force with a dog try to think of a command you could teach that would accomplish the same thing. 4. Again this isn't really necessary. It is more personal preference. We like to feed our dog his dinner through training so this often happens before we eat dinner. Otherwise we give it to him in a food puzzle while we eat to keep him busy and entertained.


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

dans595 said:


> As far as negative enforcement, the only things are I have been consistently telling him to get off of the couch. At first I'd calmly take him of and gently say "No, no. Not for dogs." and slide him onto the ground, and then praise him and say good boy and give him a treat for lying down on the ground. As he continued to do it, I got into a habit of saying "No!" sharply, not quite yelling, and taking him off of the couch a little more forceably but still having him lie down and stay for a treat. Finally this most recent time he was about to jump up and I let out a startling yell "NO!" and he jumped, and trotted away quickly. Was I too harsh? He had so many warnings. :\


Your dog doesn't know what No means (not in the sense you want him to anyways) and he also doesn't know why you are acting mad when he jumps on the couch, for him the couch is a comfy place where he can be near you (not a place to go to somehow exert dominance over you). Try teaching him what you do want by teaching him a command like "off" or "go to your bed." Then you wont have to physically force him off or yell at him.

You might like kikopup's youtube channel. It has lots of great positive training techniques. It has the basics of clicker training and everything from basic leave its, sits, focus etc. to how to stop your dog from pulling on the leash, stop barking and some more complicated but fun tricks. http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup?ob=4&feature=results_main


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Teaching up and off was a lifesaver for my dog, I can pretty much move her onto or off of just about anything I want now and we practice with various objects of varying heights on walks. Super easy to teach too.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I used to be a big time advocate for the theory described in the DBI article (& those kn here csn atest to that) but since Izze's death I vowed to change my ways & stopped being a bully to my dog.
See..... To dogs we Re all ready the leaders we control everything about their enviroment (doors, water food, play time, shelter etc) the key I have found is letting the dog know that he doesn't get what HE wants without doing something I want f


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

There's so much I want to say, but....ugh. 
Here's a blog post on Alpha Rolls Interesting perspective.

Oh, and I thoroughly second the suggestion of the Kikopup stuff! Its fantastic.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

dans595 said:


> When I started noticing that he was listening less and being less friendly I looked up some articles on establishing yourself as the alpha figure.


Ah, seems to me that this is the point when the train first started to come off the tracks. 

You've stated that your dog is an 8 month young rescue who has likely only been under your care for a very brief time, so I'm inclined to think he is essentially untrained and unestablished, therefore in that sense he can't 'listen less' if he doesn't possess a thorough and full understanding of what's really expected of him to begin with. A great deal of patience, understanding, and actual training over time will be needed here to develop a compliant dog who looks up to you as the apple of his eye rather than fearing you and questioning your motives.

As far as trustworthy literature to read, try Pat Miller's book _The Power of Positive Dog Training_, and/or Pat McConnell's _The Other End of the Leash_. IMO, both of these books are time well invested, instead of wasted. Either one should lead you and your pup much closer to where you're hoping to go, I suspect, ... without all of that needless whispery dominance crap clouding the issues.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

dans595 said:


> So I should go back to letting the dog go through doorways first and having him pull on the leash and everything?


Going through a doorway first does NOT make a dog think he is dominant over you. Some people prefer to go through the doorway first out of safety, but not to be the "alpha" over their dog. For instance, I have small dogs, and they can get under foot easily. So, depending on the situation, I may feel like I need to go out first. But, it has nothing to do with being the alpha.

As for pulling on the leash, of course, none of us would say that's ok. But, that's a matter of teaching loose leash walking, and there are plenty of threads on here about that.

I believe that your problem started in that, in the beginning you did not teach this pup manners or give him clear guidelines, or express your expectations clearly. Then, because of this, you ended up with some behavior problems. It's GREAT that you wanted to fix these problems, but, you went a bit overboard.

Yes, the alpha stuff has been debunked. It was based on flawed studies, the authors of these studies have admitted the flaws, and the erroneous conclusions based on these flaws. You CAN give your dog clear guidelines of appropriate behaviors without doing the things that you did.

You mention that you don't feel you have been a bully. The thing is, because he's a dog, not a person, his concept of "bullying" is different than ours. Dogs have their own "language" or set of social behaviors, just as any species does, and there are things dogs would consider rude or mean that we might not. For instance, did you know that dogs find it rude and offensive for other dogs to approach them head on to greet. A polite dog will approach another dog from a slight side angle.

Anyway, back to your problems:

- growling is NOT aggressive, it is a form on communication. Dogs don't have words, so if you do something that hurts them (accidentally) or if you do something that makes them uncomfortable, or if you get too close, or if you startle them, they will growl to let you know they are not comfortable. [I don't mean YOU, personally, I am speaking in general terms.]

Dogs will also growl if you touch them where they have an injury (sometimes this actually alerts an owner, so you discover an injury you didn't know was there. They growl, too when they are scared or sick.

- Furniture: don't just yell no. No is pretty ineffective. Dogs don't really have a system of right vs wrong, they do know that some things get them praise and rewards and some things get them scolded. But, no has no real definition or meaning to them, the way it does to people. Instead, teach the "off" command. Of course, you have to practice this, point to the ground, or hold a treat near the ground, and lure the dog off the furniture. Say "good off!" in a happy voice and give the treat. 
You can also to "up" to invite him up when you are ok with that.

I'm glad you are reading and investigated the links and authors offered here, there are lots of good sources to help us communicate clearly in a way that dogs will understand!
Good luck!


----------



## skraw (Jun 1, 2009)

I had a very similar situation. When we initially got out Jack / Rat Puppy, she showed signs of what I thought to be dominance. Pulled on the leash, over bearing, invaded personal space, possessive over toys and chews, and sometimes a little aggressive. She would snarl and bar her teeth if I grabbed or held her while playing or trying to get at something. Like she was saying, "let me go asshole!"

Initially, I went a bit overboard with the dominance. Did some dominance rolls and acted as if I was a pack leader in the wild. Nothing extreme, but not the best way to handle it. Now, the behavior WAS lessened quite a bit as a result, but then I did more research into other, less aggressive techniques and the nilif technique.

From then on, I approached it a lot differently. She has to sit and wait for literally everything: getting food, getting the leash put on, going out the door, getting a toy, getting a toy thrown, getting on our lap etc... I also make her sit and wait while I go out the front door and she follows me out for her walk. She has to sit and wait for me to take her leash off so she can run in the park. She is only allowed on the couch or up stairs when invited. When she jumps up or on the couch without being invited (which rarely happens anymore) we say off, not down.

One exercise I practice with her is I have her sit and stay and I lay a treat down on the floor right next to her. I say wait. She has to wait and look at my face and eyes, then I say OK and she can have the treat. Initially, she would stare at the treat only and pay no attention to me. Now she knows to look at me for the treat. I do this in a fun and friendly manner and am not digressive about it at all. I think this teaches her that the treat comes from ME, when I allow it. I also do this with her food. I think the eye contact is good in this case. The food and treat is coming from ME, not my hand.

My advise to you is follow the NILIF method and be a leader by example. Don't force it. If you do this, the good behaviors will soon follow. Just remember that time makes a big difference. It just takes patience and consistency.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dans595 said:


> Roloni - common sense, to me, meant treating him like I would a person. Sleeping in the bed, going up on the couch, if he wanted to pull on the leash I'd let him have his way and so on. It panned out very poorly! I think common sense isn't going to work for somebody with no experience with dogs! That's why I'm looking at "interweb" resources (many more than just a few) and coming onto this forum.
> 
> We'll be going to a basic manners class once he's completely over his cough which should be pretty soon!


If you have/had children do/would you allow them to do whatever they want with no rules or bounderies? Dogs need to know what is expected. That's pretty easy information to get across. Especially with marker training. They need to know what is and is not allowed. It is so much easier and more straightforward to teach those things than to expect your dog to understand what you want because you are doing silly alpha displays.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dans595 said:


> II'll say that to me, leader and alpha-figure mean the same thing. I should probably say leader instead because alpha-figure, I am finding out, is a rather loaded term. Correct me if I am wrong, but none of the resources cited here say that you should not be the leader of your dog, but in fact they are just saying not to bully your dog, to avoid negative reinforcement, and that positive reinforcement creates behavior modification which is more effective and healthy for the dog. My approach from the beginning was to be a calm-assertive, consistent leader and use only positive reinforcement to foster a consistent and friendly relationship with my dog.
> 
> So if I may ask two more questions:
> 
> ...


answer to question one: I don't think you mean to bully your dog. But stuff like staring a dog down and walking into him and expecting him to move are not actually things that a normal dog with good dog skills does to another. The fact is, if there is anything to "pack order" (and I think there is some sense of it between dogs, but not between dogs and humans -my dogs know I am not a dog) this is behavior that would be seen in a dog who is a bully - a mid-level dog who is trying to move up and likely to get his clock cleaned for the effort. A dog who is firmly in control doesn't need such displays and dogs with good dog skills don't go looking for conflict. And yet , even the rudest, most inappropriate dog has better dog skills than the average human trying to act like a dog. We miss many of the subtle nuances of dog body language and are incapable of imitating it well. Also incapable of the same timing dogs use. So much better to relate to the dog as the humans we are.

Question two: possibly your "dominance displays" have left him feeling confused and challenged. Another possibility is that some dogs talk in a growl-y manner. Without seeing/hearing your dog it's impossible to say if he is doing that. One thing you don't want to do is punish a growl. Growl is communication. Take it as such. If your dog is feeling uncomfortable, help him. People who punish growls are usually the ones who end up with dogs who bite with no warning - because they've had their ability to communicate without a bite surpressed.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> There's so much I want to say, but....ugh.
> Here's a blog post on Alpha Rolls Interesting perspective.
> 
> Oh, and I thoroughly second the suggestion of the Kikopup stuff! Its fantastic.


You don't want to know what I think of Lee Charles Kelley, other than he should stick to mystery writing. If one has the stomach one can read all about alpha rolls in the Monks of New Skete book. The interesting thing is that Job Michael Evans who wrote that later stated that he wished he'd never popularized the alpha roll because it was getting a lot of people bitten. I heard him say that with my own ears.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

You sound like an owner that cares, and just need to use the correct info to train appropriately. I've found that remembering to use the following helps...Teach WHAT to do, not what NOT to do. If they are doing something you don't want, redirect to what you DO want.

Look up youtube videos on "Rottweiler purring". Is your dog just being vocal or really growling as a warning? If he is really growling, don't punish the growl. Instead, stop whatever is making him uncomfortable, and ask for a different behavior "Come", and treat. Be consistent and fair in your training.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I hope we did not scare you away... You've learned the wrong way... here are some suggestions for a different way -
1. Two free downloads that describe a kinder. gentler way: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads
2. When you treated the dog nicely, then used Dominance, you provided and inconsistent, unpredictable environment for the dog, who was already a little ill at ease, coming from a shelter.
3. Don't worry about out-staring the dog, or eating before him. Give him good dog food and don't give him people food.
4. When you plow through him, you're brutalizing him. If you want, you can teach him "Get up" or "Move" ... We can help with this.
5. Don't force yourself in front, unless it is more convenient. I think most of us ask the dog to Sit, then we let him go out before us, because it's easier. With Dog to dog interactions, it may make a difference. But, dogs know we aren't dogs, and they adapt to nearly Anything we impose.
5. He goes belly up, b/c he doesn't know what you want. He may be growling, b/c he doesn't understand what you are doing and he's a little scared.
6. You might go back to the spoiling routine, and then we can incrementally work on each behavior that you want to change, changing it gradually and gently, communicating clearly to the dog, rather than plowing through him. Note: If the book had suggested that you say, "Move" while you plowed through the dog, then after 3 - 4 times, you could have simply said "Move" and he would've gotten up before you got there. We accept that you're new.
Unfortunately, we aren't always as nice with people as we are with dogs....
7. The No! is more than needed. With experience, you'll understand that your dog doesn't do what you want because the training method didn't work. He doesn't understand what you want. Dogs want to do what we want them to do. And, you'll see that a gently trained dog will try to anticipate what you want before you ask. It's a wonderful relationship.
8. Don't compete or stare down a dog. You are 2 - 4 times bigger than he is, he knows he would lose. You did the right thing by backing away when he growled. He was scared and he was threatened by you.... You removed the threat.
9. I believe that when you 'spoiled' him, he believed that you were his hero for rescuing him and he loved you for it. Now, he may think that you're just a source for food, and he wants to stay out of your way, because he doesn't know what your reaction might be. So, go back to treating him the way that resulting in a relationship that you liked, build up some trust, and let's start over... rather than Changing the dog, we can communicate a few simple rules to him, that will only change a few behaviors...


P.S. I think the only dog that you should Alpha Roll is an Akita. Please makes videos, b/c you will only do this once


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

The question is not do we think you're being a bully, it's does your dog think you're being a bully. Obviously, she does, or she wouldn't be using such "please don't hurt me!" body language with you. First of all, the problem with your dog not listening was never dominance, it was a young, untrained dog in a new environment, that's all. All she needed was training, and you started scaring her.

The good news is, this is fixable. You can stop all the dominance stuff (whether she sleeps in your bed or not is up to you), learn to do clicker training and with patience and love she will learn to trust you again.


----------



## Luna'sOwner (Apr 11, 2012)

I saw the title of this thread, and my first thought was: 'oh no... here we go.'


----------



## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

dans595 said:


> Roloni - common sense, to me, meant treating him like I would a person. Sleeping in the bed, going up on the couch, if he wanted to pull on the leash I'd let him have his way and so on. It panned out very poorly! I think common sense isn't going to work for somebody with no experience with dogs! That's why I'm looking at "interweb" resources (many more than just a few) and coming onto this forum.
> 
> We'll be going to a basic manners class once he's completely over his cough which should be pretty soon!


Common sense would be treating an 8 month old pup, more like a baby than a person...because its just a puppy and not a dog.
Trying to become a "Wolf Pack Alpha Leader" to a puppy , Is kinda like sending a 4 year old girl to military bootcamp.

Get all the thoughts of being Alpha and Dominating out of your head..That type of training is meant for harcore dogs with training issues.


----------



## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Gally said:


> I honestly think he's afraid of you. Based on what you described of his actions (rolling on his back, looking away, acting nervous) he is saying "I am a lowly little puppy, I'm not threat to you, please don't hurt me, I'll do whatever you ask".


THIS. Bullying a dog into submission creates a fearful, nervous dog. I'm not saying YOU are a bully. But these methods you are following are bullying.

There is NO NEED to have stare-downs with your dog and be constantly threatening/pushing him around by plowing into him all the time while walking. It's unnecessary to eat first, or take food away from him while he's eating (unless you are just training him to be okay with that, for safety's sake, even even then there's a proper way to do it). You can have your dog work for his meals, and he knows you are the one who has control over his food, because you are the provider. It's great to teach a dog to wait at doorways to the outside for safety reasons - I've taught mine this so they don't run out and get hit by a car or something. There's no reason to make them wait at every single doorway inside the house. It is also unnecessary to always insist in walking in front of your dog during walks. It's good to teach him to walk politely on a loose leash, and to heel at your side when needed (such as walking through a crowd in the city or something), but making him walk behind you ALL THE TIME is going to suck all the fun out of your walks. My dogs are allowed the whole length of the leash if they are behaving and not pulling. If they ever do decide to pull, they lose that privilege for a minute and have to walk by my side.

I think you could be better off just using the "Nothing In Life Is Free" approach rather than dominance theory. What you are doing is bullying, not being a leader. The best kind of leaders don't push others around and constantly act threatening toward them, thus creating followers who will view the leader as insecure and unpredictable. The best kind of leader is a benevolent one. A teacher who wants his followers to succeed. A protector and a provider.

Also, I second the Kikopup channel on youtube. She is amazing!!!

EDIT: Also, some kinds of dogs have a submissive smiling thing. Look at these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fI-a1aV508
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjLi9fZbo70
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKBiYwjhgPI


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> You don't want to know what I think of Lee Charles Kelley, other than he should stick to mystery writing. If one has the stomach one can read all about alpha rolls in the Monks of New Skete book. The interesting thing is that Job Michael Evans who wrote that later stated that he wished he'd never popularized the alpha roll because it was getting a lot of people bitten. I heard him say that with my own ears.


I just thought it was interesting, and it wasn't describing the techniques in the Monks of New Skete book (I'm guessing you skimmed the first few lines and missed the point of it).The upshot of the blog post is not to do them at all, rolling on the floor with your dog and having fun with them gets better results, forget about physical (or even psychological) dominance. Form a bond rather than some imaginary hierarchy.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

in all fairness, dogs know we arent dogs, just like someone from outside the USA knows that when i visit another country (as i plan to do with mexico soon when me & fiancee go to visit his family) they will know i am not from mexico but i think it would help things if i could speak spanish as opposed to trying to speak english? when we speak 'dog' (which is what i do i think, i dont do CMs methods i am mostly positive but i like to think im more....................... 'primal' about it LOL).


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Not if your Spanish is really crummy . Then you'll just make them mad. Like if you say their baby is "monita" instead of "bonita" (monkey instead of cute).


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

"Bonita" actually means "pretty" or "beautiful" depending on the context in which it is used. Either way it would be an appropriate deduction of a baby, WTO I know how to speak Spanish fairly well, on the other hand. I knew that we eventually would travel down there, so I buckled down to some learning. 

Why can't it be the sme with dog's? If someone is committed to learning their lingo then why can't the same rules apply?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think humans CAN learn dog language well, because most of it is body language and our bodies are just too different. No tails! Our ears don't move! LOL. Any attempt would be clumsy at best. Of course most dogs can learn to read human body language, especially if their human makes an effort to communicate clearly, but there's no point in humans trying to act like dogs.

I know bonita means pretty. . .but if you say it to a baby, wouldn't cute be more accurate? The bonita/monita story is actually one told to me by a missionary who was sent to a Spanish-speaking country. He said the mom got really mad at him, LOL.


----------



## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Not if your Spanish is really crummy . Then you'll just make them mad. Like if you say their baby is "monita" instead of "bonita" (monkey instead of cute).


I disagree, I think we Spanish speaking people have the bad habit of finding people making mistakes in Spanish endearing... and then we laugh... and then the other party feels embarrassed and doesn't dare to speak anymore and that's bad. Besides, we love people who try to speak our language. Every time I bring my husband home my family is like "so, when is he going to learn Spanish?" -so not cool. 

I think that the Human-Dog communication has the main disadvantage that humans and dogs have two different language programs embedded in their system. In linguistics, if Chomsky has shown us anything at all, is that humans are programmed to accept certain types of spoken languages, there is of course room for language diversity, but most of the rules are the same. That's why speaking Klingon is almost impossible, because the people who designed that language purposefully broke all of the laws that make a human language human (or so says my linguistics teacher). 
In that same way, we have to admit that even though humans put a lot of emphasis on spoken language, at least 60% of our communication is expressed by body language, we just don't notice this. Think of how many times you get along with someone online but can't get along with them in real life or vice versa. The thing is, dogs are really great at picking these signals from us, but we on the other hand are not so good at picking signals from them. Even if we really try, we wouldn't be able to speak dog because we're humans and humans can learn other human languages, but we can't learn other species languages. Especially not other species body languages. 
We can only communicate basic stuff because dogs are so perceptive of human behavior, not because humans are gifted communicators.


----------



## Rene (Apr 22, 2012)

dans595 said:


> ....he would refuse to sleep in his crate, etc and whine and bark until we would let him in bed.


I'm about as far from an expert on dogs as one can get. When we knew we were getting our puppy, Bailey, I started reading info on the internet about training and, due to what most people were saying, I got several of Cesar Millan's books from my library. I read one of them and knew that it wasn't going to work for me. It wasn't a matter of whether or not the method was right or okay or would be effective, I just knew that there's no way I can be an Alpha. It's just not in my nature. I'd end up being frustrated and the dog would probably be laughing at me.

But what I am is a mother. And I know that giving in to whining, whether a child or a dog, will only create a demanding bratty creature.  I think there are things you don't need to do, like pushing through your dog or maybe even eating first. But if you are kind, but firm, and don't give in just to make the whining/barking stop, with time the dog will understand that it can't control/manipulate you and that your rules are to be obeyed. You just have to be consistent.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> "Bonita" actually means "pretty" or "beautiful" depending on the context in which it is used. Either way it would be an appropriate deduction of a baby, WTO I know how to speak Spanish fairly well, on the other hand. I knew that we eventually would travel down there, so I buckled down to some learning.
> 
> Why can't it be the sme with dog's? If someone is committed to learning their lingo then why can't the same rules apply?


I agree. And, while dogs know we're not dogs, and we may not be GOOD at speaking their language, so to speak, isn't it helpful to at least KNOW how dogs communicate? If we know some components of their "language" there are some things we can do differently to help, like not approaching head on, but rather a bit from the side, as dogs find it rude to be approached head on.
I have also learned to point my body the way I want the dogs to go when I say "here" rather than facing them and saying "here". When dogs alert us to something, or want us to follow them, they usually face in the direction they are try to go, while we tend to FACE them when we say "here", which doesn't make sense to them. Of course, you can train them to come even if you're facing them. But, if you're aware of the difference in the way they do it and they way we'd do it, it seems like that can only help.

It would at least help us interpret what they do better.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> The FIRST thing I taught my dog was to stare into my eyes. This is a good thing! It gets your dog really focused on you. .)


The thing is, we want lots of things out of a dog which are definitely NOT normal dog/dog behavior. We want eye contact, we want a dog who comes directly to us, in a straight line/frontally and we want a dog who will stay close to us (well within our space bubble). These are things that aren't normal behavior in the dog to dog world, and might result in discipline. Now if all I wanted was a dog who would avert eyes, gives me a great deal of distance and doesn't bother me, glaring at the dog until it looks away, plowing through the dog's personal space, etc. might work. But I don't want those things, and apparently the OP really doesn't either. So, if I didn't want the dog treating me the way it would treat a bossy, higher status dog, why would I want to try to imitate one?


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> I just thought it was interesting, and it wasn't describing the techniques in the Monks of New Skete book (I'm guessing you skimmed the first few lines and missed the point of it).The upshot of the blog post is not to do them at all, rolling on the floor with your dog and having fun with them gets better results, forget about physical (or even psychological) dominance. Form a bond rather than some imaginary hierarchy.


Point being, what LCK describes as an Alpha roll is not. Certainly rolling on the ground and allowing your dog to climb all over you is more fun for the dog. But if someone reads his description of an alpha roll, and believes that is what it is . . . well, at least they are less likely to suffer a serious facial bite, I guess, though they will get some unacceptable behaviors (in the mind of most people)


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Roloni said:


> Get all the thoughts of being Alpha and Dominating out of your head..That type of training is meant for harcore dogs with training issues.


And, even with that kind of dog (sometimes especially that kind of dog) the whole alpha/dominance thing fails and actually makes the dog worse because you are creating confrontation instead of cooperation.


----------



## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Rene said:


> I'm about as far from an expert on dogs as one can get. When we knew we were getting our puppy, Bailey, I started reading info on the internet about training and, due to what most people were saying, I got several of Cesar Millan's books from my library. I read one of them and knew that it wasn't going to work for me. It wasn't a matter of whether or not the method was right or okay or would be effective, I just knew that there's no way I can be an Alpha. It's just not in my nature. I'd end up being frustrated and the dog would probably be laughing at me.
> 
> But what I am is a mother. And I know that giving in to whining, whether a child or a dog, will only create a demanding bratty creature.  I think there are things you don't need to do, like pushing through your dog or maybe even eating first. But if you are kind, but firm, and don't give in just to make the whining/barking stop, with time the dog will understand that it can't control/manipulate you and that your rules are to be obeyed. You just have to be consistent.


:hail::clap2:
This is an awesome explanation!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That dogbreedinfo site is really really bad all around. I would definitely not use that site for advice on anything.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not too fond of it either... I just go there to stare at the pretty dog pictures basically.


----------



## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> And, even with that kind of dog (sometimes especially that kind of dog) the whole alpha/dominance thing fails and actually makes the dog worse because you are creating confrontation instead of cooperation.


Agree..
The Alpha/Dominace training methods are very confrontational to a Hardcore Bad Dog..but...
Its a last resort meant to make them become submissive , and that might save the dog from being put down.

Using Alpha/Dominace training methods with a puppy , or as a training method for a good natured dog that just wasnt trained properly , is probably going to just break the spirit of a dog . Sure the dog will listen to your commands , but its doing it because its fearfull of you.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I just came across a rescue that uses Cesar Milan's techniques, teaches them to adopters and will not adopt to someone who doesn't use them. 

Because what a scared rescue, possibly neglected or abused by their former owner, needs is to be frightened into submission. 

Just awesome. Now I want to rescue dogs from a rescue.


----------



## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> I just came across a rescue that uses Cesar Milan's techniques, teaches them to adopters and will not adopt to someone who doesn't use them.
> 
> Because what a scared rescue, possibly neglected or abused by their former owner, needs is to be frightened into submission.
> 
> Just awesome. Now I want to rescue dogs from a rescue.


Its hard to believe that every dog.. in that place you speak of.. only has dogs that cant be trained without using drastic measures...


----------



## MusherChic (Nov 6, 2010)

> I wanted to say that several people have said that the way I've followed the instructions I found online about being an alpha-figure for your dog "bullying." That really makes me feel bad as I've been researching night and day and doing my damn best to try to do the right thing for this dog. My impression was that being a kind, consistent, calm, assertive leader for your dog would do wonders for making the dog more comfortable and confident.


You've gotten lots of great advice here, dans595.  I just wanted to say, don't feel bad about getting the wrong information--it's not your fault! I, too, was slightly buying into the whole "Alpha" theory before I came to this forum. With all of the different information out there (and the convenience of finding it at the click of a mouse), it's hard to make out what's right and what's wrong. 

You might enjoy reading the book called _The Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson. It was a real eye opener for me and it gave me a lot of help with my dogs, especially my GSD who is aggressive around food.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

When I was getting to be mature enough to start training my own dogs properly (around 11-12) I got interested in doing just that, and I too thought Cesar Milan was brilliant at first. I even used some of his techniques on my own dog. But it didn't take long for me to find out just how wrong he was!


----------



## Nev Allen (Feb 17, 2010)

Here is an analogy that may help put the dominance thing in some more perspective. 

If you have a boss that talks gibberish to you and expects you to understand exactly what he means and then punishes you for not doing what he wants, how would you feel. He is your boss and you know he pays you so you can eat but you would hate him and would be trying not to make him angry.

You leave and your new boss is full of praise and his directions are clear, concise and consistant and you are rewarded everytime you work with him, even if you fail. You still know he is your boss and you get paid so you can feed your family.

Which boss would you work for?

As for walking your dog, Look into using the Gentle Walker harness, or if he is not a dog who bolts after squirrels or joggers, a Gentle Leader head halter. Both allow the dog to walk ahead but you can control in which direction by pulling or releasing the leash.


----------



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

This thread has been somewhat derailed by people talking about alpha rolls. Just so it's clear I never had even heard of that until it was mentioned here, and I never did that. When (if?) I said "alpha-roll" I meant playing the roll of the alpha figure.

Anyway, a little update. I cut all the dominance stuff out entirely, as per feeling insanely guilty for being a bully. I lay on my back on the ground and let the dog get up on my chest and he opted to put his paws on my neck. (He weights 26 lbs so it was very uncomfortable, and he kept going back to that position.) Literally on our next walk, and every walk since, he has been pulling like MAD exactly like he used to before I started in with the dominance stuff. And somebody mentioned this: we do use an easy walk harness; he still finds an angle where he can get some leverage and pulls, or just lies down flat on the ground and spreads out his paws when he's decided he's where he wants to be. (Note: He was walking very obediently behind me without sniffing while I was doing the dominance methods.) Anyway, on the bright side, he's a little more friendly to me sometimes. I've let him get up on my chest a few more times and he didn't try to choke me so that was cool. Not a 100% turn around just yet but we're getting closer. Thanks for the clues, you all.

EDIT: P.S., when he is sleeping near me and I move from one room to another, he'll follow me and continue sleeping in the new room!


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

He can be taught to walk on a loose leash. Google "silky lead" or "loose-leash walking". And check out kikopup's channel on youtube. Learning a new skill is a good thing! And more reliable than depending on him being so shut down that he won't pull. 

And you don't have to let him climb all over you! I hate that kind of thing. You can be friends without allowing that .


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Did you read the Nothing in Life is Free link I posted way back on page one? The gist of that is that if your dog wants something, he has to do something for you first. He wants his dinner? He has to lay down quietly while you set down his bowl. He wants to go outside? He has to sit nicely while you clip on his leash. He wants attention? He has to be quiet first, not jumping all over you and barking. Teach the dog all of the commands you want him to know, and then don't give him what he wants until he follows them when you ask. Failure gets no reward, no attention. This works much better than plowing past your dog or making sure he always exits the door behind you.

And good leash manners have nothing to do with dominance. Nothing. Your dog is excited to be out; he wants to go and explore; he's not in any way thinking about your desires or who's the "top dog." He needs to be taught what you expect from him on a walk. Silky leash is a good idea, or there are many more methods of teaching a good LLW. I had success with the Penalty Yards method (I don't use a clicker and it still worked fine).


----------



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Did you read the Nothing in Life is Free link I posted way back on page one? The gist of that is that if your dog wants something, he has to do something for you first. He wants his dinner? He has to lay down quietly while you set down his bowl. He wants to go outside? He has to sit nicely while you clip on his leash. He wants attention? He has to be quiet first, not jumping all over you and barking. Teach the dog all of the commands you want him to know, and then don't give him what he wants until he follows them when you ask. Failure gets no reward, no attention. This works much better than plowing past your dog or making sure he always exits the door behind you.
> 
> And good leash manners have nothing to do with dominance. Nothing. Your dog is excited to be out, he wants to go and explore; he's not in any way thinking about your desires or who's the "top dog." He needs to be taught what you expect from him on a walk. Silky leash is a good idea, or there are many more methods of teaching a good LLW.


Yes, I looked at Nothing In Life Is Free. It seems a little messed up, literally the premise of the training philosophy is "find all the things your dog likes, and limit those resources." But I am realizing that having an obedient pet is messed up on a deeper level, even if it is done in a way that makes the dog happy. I did read the page you linked me to about NILIF, anyway. And actually, I've kinda been doing that all along. Since the beginning I've been trying to make him obey to get the things he wants, it seemed like common sense!

As far as leash walking not having anything to do with dominance, that sure is weird! When we got him, he was a leash puller and even though we'd apply leash pressure if he wanted to go somewhere else he would just pull (despite having an Easy Walk harness). Similarly he knew commands like crate and lie down but would only do them if he knew you had a treat. I stared him down once or twice, ate before him once, sat him down before we exited the house, and immediately he was trotting behind me and doing no pulling whatsoever, and this continued for as long as I kept up the staring and whatnot. If he'd get slightly distracted, the tiniest bit of leash pressure would have right behind me again. Similarly, he started doing his commands for me sans treat. It was a night and day difference. And as soon as I let him get back on top of me, it switched directly back like night and day. I guess it's just one of those coincidences?


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I suppose the dog could have been unsure/nervous around you, afraid to mess up, so kind of trailed along behind you? I have seen behavior like this from dogs whose owners hit them to "train" them (I know you don't hit your dog! That's a very extreme example). The dog was compliant, but probably not enjoying the walk as much.

I do have to ask, though, why the two extremes? It seems to be either "I intimidate my dog" or "I let my dog literally walk all over me." There is a lovely middle ground! I use NILIF (like you, I found it to be common sense; I have been doing it without knowing it had a name for as long as I've had dogs), and my dogs know what's expected of them -- they automatically sit while I get their food now, and stand quietly while I attach their leashes, and wag their tails quietly when I come in the door, and lay just outside the kitchen while I prepare food. They know that they're not supposed to jump on me uninvited or climb on me if I lay down. Dogs will learn the routine, and you won't constantly have to be giving commands.


----------



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

Haha, right. I mean when I started the staring I just was thinking "Oh, this article says my dog will be happier having a leader he can trust, etc, so by making eye contact, that's doggy speak for 'I'm the leader.'" I didn't at all mean to be dominating him in any aggressive or mean way. Also, when I walked through him, it was really me nudging him out of the way. It all felt quite gentle.

Then I came on here, and felt very bad, and so I couldn't help but apologize by inviting him up on my chest. I kinda like having him up there except for the being strangled part. Since then, in more recent instances of lying together, he has opted to lie beside me with his chin on me or something like that. Probably that's a middle ground or so?

Your explanation about the dog being scared make sense.



Crantastic said:


> I suppose the dog could have been unsure/nervous around you, afraid to mess up, so kind of trailed along behind you? I have seen behavior like this from dogs whose owners hit them to "train" them (I know you don't hit your dog! That's a very extreme example). The dog was compliant, but probably not enjoying the walk as much.
> 
> I do have to ask, though, why the two extremes? It seems to be either "I intimidate my dog" or "I let my dog literally walk all over me." There is a lovely middle ground! I use NILIF (like you, I found it to be common sense; I have been doing it without knowing it had a name for as long as I've had dogs), and my dogs know what's expected of them -- they automatically sit while I get their food now, and stand quietly while I attach their leashes, and wag their tails quietly when I come in the door, and lay just outside the kitchen while I prepare food. They know that they're not supposed to jump on me uninvited or climb on me if I lay down. Dogs will learn the routine, and you won't constantly have to be giving commands.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I definitely don't think you're doing something awful.  I think that, if anything, your dog was a bit unsure of you due to the staring, not terrified! Hard eye contact is intimidating to a dog. I have taught mine to seek it out when he wants to communicate something to me, and to stare right at me when I call his name to get his attention, and dog show handlers teach it so that their dogs will keep their eyes on them during judging. I definitely think it makes for a more attentive and confident dog, which I'd prefer to one who looks away nervously any time I look at its face.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

For those who are more interested in communicating with your dog, look for "Calming Signals" and Turid Rugaas. Calming Signals is the popular name given to 30 gestures that dogs use as body language for communication to other dogs... and to other animals and people, with adequate feedback. 

One of the things that we teach is that when you cue the dog to do something (or more likely command him), if he flicks his tongue or licks his nose, then you may not be clear or you may be too overwhelming. And that's just on specific example...


----------



## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

dans595 said:


> I lay on my back on the ground and let the dog get up on my chest and he opted to put his paws on my neck. (He weights 26 lbs so it was very uncomfortable, and he kept going back to that position.)





dans595 said:


> I've let him get up on my chest a few more times and he didn't try to choke me so that was cool.


I may have missed something... who on earth suggested that you let your dog climb all over you? I don't allow that with my own dogs.

A video about training in general:
http://youtu.be/6cdcyrOMehg

As for walking politely:




 










Info about clicker training:
http://youtu.be/_wv1uvvqaSw

"Clicker Training" Without the Clicker:
http://youtu.be/M6B-Q4-nqNg

This lady is amazing, and I have learned a lot from her, for use with my own dogs.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Roloni said:


> Agree..
> The Alpha/Dominace training methods are very confrontational to a Hardcore Bad Dog..but...
> Its a last resort meant to make them become submissive , and that might save the dog from being put down.
> 
> .


Last ditch efforts are often more a result of desperation than good sense/efficacy. Frequently when one uses intimidation, the results are temporary and only a stay of execution. Because they don't address what's actually going on.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dans595 said:


> Yes, I looked at Nothing In Life Is Free. It seems a little messed up, literally the premise of the training philosophy is "find all the things your dog likes, and limit those resources." But I am realizing that having an obedient pet is messed up on a deeper level, even if it is done in a way that makes the dog happy. I did read the page you linked me to about NILIF, anyway. And actually, I've kinda been doing that all along. Since the beginning I've been trying to make him obey to get the things he wants, it seemed like common sense!
> 
> As far as leash walking not having anything to do with dominance, that sure is weird! When we got him, he was a leash puller and even though we'd apply leash pressure if he wanted to go somewhere else he would just pull (despite having an Easy Walk harness). Similarly he knew commands like crate and lie down but would only do them if he knew you had a treat. I stared him down once or twice, ate before him once, sat him down before we exited the house, and immediately he was trotting behind me and doing no pulling whatsoever, and this continued for as long as I kept up the staring and whatnot. If he'd get slightly distracted, the tiniest bit of leash pressure would have right behind me again. Similarly, he started doing his commands for me sans treat. It was a night and day difference. And as soon as I let him get back on top of me, it switched directly back like night and day. I guess it's just one of those coincidences?


The leash pulling is a lack of attention. The not working without seeing a treat is simply poor training (treats should be a reward, not a bribe). You can certainly get a dog to obey by intimidation. However if it was working so beautifully for you, I'm not sure why you posted this thread? I mean, you started out worried about why your dog was so intimidated and displaying avoidance behaviors. Now it all worked very well for you? Some dogs need more structure than others. But it's best to address the structure directly than to perform all sorts of superstitious rituals in hopes that your dog will "get it" and still be able to work with confidence and joy.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dans595 said:


> Haha, right. I mean when I started the staring I just was thinking "Oh, this article says my dog will be happier having a leader he can trust, etc, so by making eye contact, that's doggy speak for 'I'm the leader.'" I didn't at all mean to be dominating him in any aggressive or mean way. Also, when I walked through him, it was really me nudging him out of the way. It all felt quite gentle.
> 
> .


High status dogs don't go around making hard eye contact with other dogs for no reason. They also don't walk directly into other dogs. They are high status because they are smarter about behavior than than.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dans595 said:


> This thread has been somewhat derailed by people talking about alpha rolls. Just so it's clear I never had even heard of that until it was mentioned here, and I never did that. When (if?) I said "alpha-roll" I meant playing the roll of the alpha figure.


That would be an Alpha Role, wouldn't it? Alpha Roll is a specific (and dangerous) maneuver.


----------



## The Feather Duster (Apr 14, 2010)

Rolls are meant to be cinnamon (or otherwise) flavoured, aren't they? Dominant and submissive is played out by strange people wearing leather bustiers, with whips and chains they use on their submissive players, aren't they? Or else, that childhood game with black and white colouring and dots all over. Oops, that's dominoes, as in the domino effect ...

What has this to do with dogs really?

Dogs and humans are meant to have joyful relationships, I think. I certainly have that with my dog, as I think most members of this forum have with their dogs. "Bond" is the operative word here. My bed is Plume's bed. My couch is Plume's couch. No "Up" invitation needed. Sure, she leaves some tumbleweeds of fur behind as she absents herself from a preferred location. This is why vacuum cleaners are your friend.

I honestly don't care who goes out the door first. Neither does Plume, really. No hard eyed stares between us. She sometimes gazes softly at me and I return the gaze in a similar fashion. I sometimes wake up (usually on weekends when I can have a lie-in) only to find a big brown pair of eyes looking intently into my closed eyes - until I open my own, spot those peepers of hers, have a laugh and reach for her. She comes willingly into my arms and tries to burrow into my sleepy body.

When I'm having a cookathon and she is smelling eggs, cream, cheese, baguettes - all her favourite human foods - and is very much in the way of my footsteps, I don't just plow though her. Why would anyone do that? I usually just step over or around her but lately, I have just been saying, "Excuse me, Plume" or, "Can you move a bit, Sweetie?" She gets it and moves.

Why anyone would have an adversarial relationship with their dog is beyond me. Lack of knowledge, maybe. Reading bad information on the Internet, maybe.

But maybe following instinct, as in treat others (dogs and other critters) as you would yourself want to be treated - with kindness, respect and benevolence would be the best way?


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I love your post, Feather Duster... Seconding all of that <3


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dans595 said:


> Roloni - common sense, to me, meant treating him like I would a person. Sleeping in the bed, going up on the couch, if he wanted to pull on the leash I'd let him have his way and so on. It panned out very poorly! I think common sense isn't going to work for somebody with no experience with dogs! That's why I'm looking at "interweb" resources (many more than just a few) and coming onto this forum.
> 
> We'll be going to a basic manners class once he's completely over his cough which should be pretty soon!


Leadership and dominance are two very different things. I use NILIF (Nothing In LIfe Is Free) with my dogs, they are rewarded for appropriate behavior and trained to do the things I wish. Yes, they are allowed up on the couch, but it's a PRIVILEDGE that is earned and they MUST leave the couch when humans wish to sit. I don't allow dogs in hte bed because I don't want dog hair in the bed, so they have beds next to mine. 

If you wish to teach manners there are excellent threads in the training forum. Start with Doggy Zen, then Greeting at the door, then Greeting in Public. I teach my dogs to sit/wait at the door while their leashes are put on and they come out the door at a heel, with a sit/wait for me to close the door and lock it. It's like teaching your kids to be polite and not shove. 

I NEVER use dominance based techniques, I don't use punishment in the manner humans think of. I DO use behavior managment, an expample is that my DObe seems to have forgotten her house training, so she is no longer allowed to have the run of the house and must be crated while we're away to prevent accidents. When we're home we treat her like she was a pup and take the same care to watch her so she doesn't have accidents in the house. It's ALL about TRAINING, teaching the dog what you want so it knows how to please you.


----------



## dans595 (May 9, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> The leash pulling is a lack of attention. The not working without seeing a treat is simply poor training (treats should be a reward, not a bribe). You can certainly get a dog to obey by intimidation. However if it was working so beautifully for you, I'm not sure why you posted this thread? I mean, you started out worried about why your dog was so intimidated and displaying avoidance behaviors. Now it all worked very well for you? Some dogs need more structure than others. But it's best to address the structure directly than to perform all sorts of superstitious rituals in hopes that your dog will "get it" and still be able to work with confidence and joy.


Looking back at my original post I did indeed say "alpha-roles," then other people started talking about "alpha rolls" and I was clarifying that I said, and meant, alpha-roles from the beginning. But in the clarification I had one to many rolls and one too few roles.

pawzk9, I said this all but I will clarify: The dominance training fixed some things I was concerned about, but brought on a few more things that I am perhaps more concerned about. If it all worked very well for me, I'd not be here asking questions obviously. I'm pretty sure my original post even mentioned the things that the dominance training helped with.

I think that many of the people responding here possess a contradictory attitude of "dominance doesn't work" and "dominance works but works through fear and is not a good method." I noticed it have a huge impact on the dogs behavior, so to say it's totally debunked and doesn't work is certainly not dead-on. Still, I don't like it, and I've been going strong without it and things seem to be going well. Having a lot of fun with the dog and he seems to be attached to me and always wants to hang out.

To everyone, thanks again for your opinions. And if you care to care, please be kind to strangers, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> *Leadership and dominance are two very different things.* I use NILIF (Nothing In LIfe Is Free) with my dogs, they are rewarded for appropriate behavior and trained to do the things I wish. *Yes, they are allowed up on the couch, but it's a PRIVILEDGE that is earned and they MUST leave the couch when humans wish to sit*. I don't allow dogs in hte bed because I don't want dog hair in the bed, so they have beds next to mine.
> 
> If you wish to teach manners there are excellent threads in the training forum. Start with Doggy Zen, then Greeting at the door, then Greeting in Public. I teach my dogs to sit/wait at the door while their leashes are put on and they come out the door at a heel, with a sit/wait for me to close the door and lock it. It's like teaching your kids to be polite and not shove.
> 
> *I NEVER use dominance based techniques, I don't use punishment in the manner humans think of. I DO use behavior managment*, an expample is that my DObe seems to have forgotten her house training, so she is no longer allowed to have the run of the house and must be crated while we're away to prevent accidents. When we're home we treat her like she was a pup and take the same care to watch her so she doesn't have accidents in the house. *It's ALL about TRAINING, teaching the dog what you want so it knows how to please you*.


I like the entire post, but I LOVE the bolded parts. It seems that whenever there is a dominance type thread, I pipe in with my dislike of the use of the word dominance, because of so many negative connotations it can have, and because it can really start to lead people who don't know better down a bad path. And, I am usually met with people who see being a leader and being the alpha or dominant one as being the same thing. It is SO not the same thing.

Many people use the correlation between parenting and training your dog, so I will follow up on that, if I may. Yes, you could dominant your children, or you could lead your children. To me, dominanting is very similar to the word domineering. And, it just sounds like you are squashing any individuality in order to show you are the boss.

I want my dogs to be themselves, but I want them to have good manners. I can teach good manners without squashing their personalities by dominating them in a forceful way. And, forceful doesn't only apply to physical techniques either.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

The Feather Duster said:


> Rolls are meant to be cinnamon (or otherwise) flavoured, aren't they? Dominant and submissive is played out by strange people wearing leather bustiers, with whips and chains they use on their submissive players, aren't they? Or else, that childhood game with black and white colouring and dots all over. Oops, that's dominoes, as in the domino effect ...
> 
> What has this to do with dogs really?
> 
> ...


Love this, too!


----------

