# Fun genetics question -- Lady and the Tramp?



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I recently commented to a group of friends that it has always amused me that when Disney's Lady and the Tramp had puppies, all of the girls looked like purebred cocker spaniels while the one boy looked like a grey terrier mutt like Tramp. One friend pointed out that it is possible for litters to go this way (maybe not with the strict gender split, but for some pups to look like one of the parents and not the other). It made me wonder what the probabilities are for a pairing like this.










We know Lady is a purebred cocker spaniel (a red?). I don't think anyone has ever given official word on Tramp's mix, but schnauzer is widely accepted as part of it (feel free to argue for something else, though). Do we need more information?

So, just for fun... if it's possible, anyone care to predict a litter?

Edit: Found the real-life inspirations for the two dogs, with pictures (and a neat article). Click here!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

If you know genetics it is difficult.. but lets assume that red is a domininant color and wire hair is a domininant hair type....

All the puppies would then be red with wire hair of varying lengths depending on other dominant traits (long hair may be recessive to short hair.. but Tramp could carry a long hair gene). 

So.. of four puppies there would be one red long wire hair and three red short wire hair. Body type is a whole nother thing.. and I would vote for one short legged puppy, one long legged puppy and two in the middle.. and this not know if certain traits are dominant or recessive....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, without knowing Tramp's actual mix and what Lady and the Tramp's parents looked like, I know we won't be able to get a great idea... but it's fun anyway, right?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

The offspring of two dogs that are quite different rarely fully resemble one parent or the other, and most fall somewhere in the middle in regards to traits.

I stole this image from the blog link Crantastic, of the inspiration for Tramp (a she). 










Tramp is wire coated - or bearded, and that is a dominant trait. That also means he is short coated - a dominant trait to Lady's long coat. Tramp is also a't' - or tan pointed on the Agouti locus. To show tanpoint he would also have to be E dominant on the extension locus - whereas Lady has the recessive e/e pairing there.

Now - if Tramp carried a non-bearded allele behind his bearded, a long coat allele behind his short, and a tan 'e' allele behind his dominant E allele, THEN some of the pups could come out with the same coat color and texture as Lady. As for the conformation . . . well, that would be a stretch UNLESS he had a Cocker parent himself.

If you were to surmise on a litter between these two, you could count on Tramps dominant traits (short coat, wire-beard, tanpoint coloring) showing in half of the pups, by odds, and that, again, would be on the assumption that he was carrying all the recessive traits I mentioned.

With Lady being a red Cocker, she could very well be K/K at the blacK locus (that would be unseen as e/e is epistatic to the K locus). Tramp's E allele could then play into some pups with a K and E combination (K from Lady and E from Tramp), making solid black pups as well.

Almost missed this - if Tramp carries long coat, and pups get a long coat allele from each parent AND his wire allele, they would have a continuously growing coat (lo-shedding) like a Shih Tzu!

. . . and yes, it is fun.

SOB


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I was hoping you'd post! I didn't consider the possibility of solid black pups, but that's neat.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

And the other big question: what would be the designer breed name for that mix?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Well, cocker spaniel/schnauzer is called "Schnocker," according to DogBreedInfo, haha. But Lady/Tramp pups? Lamps? 

There's an all black dog on this page and that's what I imagine the solid black version of Lady/Tramp puppies could look like.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Reminds me of the ending of my favorite movie... Turner & Hooch. 
Hooch, the Dogue de Bordeaux and the Rough Collie have pups... all pups are Rough Collie's except for the one DDB puppy. Always thought that was funny. 
Nessa


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Interesting thread!:wave:


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Hey, this dog is Molly from the Schnauzer x Cocker page. Tramp looks a lot like her.










If you were to pretend Tramp was a Schnauzer x Cocker, then, well . . . . with Lady he COULD have pups that very much looked like her! LOL

SOB


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Crantastic said:


>



just came on to say I have this exact picture on my bedroom wall along with another LatT one and 2 101D ones


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## storysunfolding (Aug 26, 2008)

Genes do all sorts of funny things. Most of the time in higher species it's not as simple as dominant and recessive. Each part of an allele codes for a particular trait and through recombination, things are always changing. Typically when people guess about genetics they assume a simple dominant or recessive model following medelian genetics. It's a nice way of looking at things, and for simple traits tends to work fairly well, but for an entire appearance... well while the puppies are possible, they aren't probable.

For those of you interested a typical pundit square looks like this one. A capital letter represents a dominant trait, and lowercase one a recessive. Anytime the dominant shows up, that will be the trait expressed *.










* modern genetics has shown that's not always true. Fun fact, the gene for six fingers is a dominant gene, but there are enough redundancies that particular recessive genes can counteract its development in most cases.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

storysunfolding said:


> For those of you interested a typical pundit square looks like this one.


Hee, a Pundit Square. Sounds like something you'd see on FOX News. 

I find genetics interesting, but I get lost when they start getting complicated (I am horribly confused by husky genetics)! I have this site and this site bookmarked after seeing them linked at DF a few times, and they do a good job explaining a lot of the color stuff in easy-to-follow ways. If I'm wondering about something I usually post here and hope spanielorbust answers it.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Wow, I never noticed this before, but Gatsby looks _identical_ to the Tramp.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I knew a mini Schnauzer/Sheltie mix. Not quite Schnauzer/Cocker but sort of the same concept. She was the UGLIEST dog I've ever seen (but sweet). She was a shorthair wirehaired long-legged tri-color with a funny tail (maybe that's what Schnauzer tails look like when not docked? Kind of curled). She was the only surviving pup in the litter (other one was stillborn) so I can't say what other pups of the same union would have looked like.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I knew a mini Schnauzer/Sheltie mix. Not quite Schnauzer/Cocker but sort of the same concept. She was the UGLIEST dog I've ever seen (but sweet). She was a shorthair wirehaired long-legged tri-color with a funny tail (maybe that's what Schnauzer tails look like when not docked? Kind of curled). She was the only surviving pup in the litter (other one was stillborn) so I can't say what other pups of the same union would have looked like.


Was the tail something like this?








Lots of terrier tails look more or less like that when left natural. I've seen pictures from something like an Afgan's tail to a tail that would rival a spitz. It's how they get such an upright tail when it is docked.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I would say something like an Afghan's tail. Not curly enough to be spitz-like. I just thought it was interesting because of shorthair and wirehair being dominant, and that certainly did show up in her. And how she got her father's coloring.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I see all the pundits have gone square! LOL

I was just guessing at which traits are actually dominant. I know more about cat color and coat genetics and horses than dogs.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Well... *hand flip*....you didn't hear it from me, but I hear Tramp wasn't the *only* father of those puppies...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> With Lady being a red Cocker, she could very well be K/K at the blacK locus (that would be unseen as e/e is epistatic to the K locus). Tramp's E allele could then play into some pups with a K and E combination (K from Lady and E from Tramp), making solid black pups as well.
> 
> Almost missed this - if Tramp carries long coat, and pups get a long coat allele from each parent AND his wire allele, they would have a continuously growing coat (lo-shedding) like a Shih Tzu!


Oh wow so a black, long coated dog that's low shedding? I'd like to see this dog


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Oh wow so a black, long coated dog that's low shedding? I'd like to see this dog


I've known a couple of black Cockapoos that did not shed (or did so as lightly as the purebred non-shedders). Black is a common color in Cockapoos. 










Shih Tzus come in black as well - not commonly though.










SOB


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

It's the NegaWally!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> I've known a couple of black Cockapoos that did not shed (or did so as lightly as the purebred non-shedders). Black is a common color in Cockapoos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weird, black shih-tzus here are a dime a dozen.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I see a lot more black and whites here lately, but solid blacks are not as common. In our area there was a commercial breeder that helped to proliferate the breed in Alberta about 25-30 years ago. Their foundation stock must had nice temperaments, cuz most Shih Tzus and mixes here that I've met and here about are quite wonderful. They are also almost all white and sable, as that is what this kennel and a partner kennel bred mostly. 

SOB


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Around here it's mostly the blonde (buff? I don't know how 'tzu coat colors are described) shih tzus, with black on their ears. I see brownish/white patched ones quite a bit, too. I don't think I've seen any solid blacks. They do mostly seem to have great temperaments here, too, calm and friendly.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Well... *hand flip*....you didn't hear it from me, but I hear Tramp wasn't the *only* father of those puppies...


They say it was the tall Borzoi on the right in the pound. Did you SEE HIM?!?


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