# Mirada and the dumbbell



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

So, I still suck at teaching heel (though we have started working on position, and my current method is making me happy), but Mirada has proven to have a lot of "talent" when it comes to the dumbbell.

She is not apprehensive about taking various objects (all with various textures) in her mouth, which is good. She also is doing really well with holding, though it's better on some materials than others. However, I am having a trouble getting her to understand that it's the bar I really want her face on, not the ends. I'm doing poorly in conveying this to her.

When I hold it in my hands, she has no option but to bite the bar (which she does enthusiastically). However, when I make it "dead" on the floor, though she is very welling to pick up the dead object, she still is not understanding that I need her to pick it up by the bar.

Yes, I have done the squeezy cheese thing, but she only licks it off, she doesn't put her mouth around it. Sometimes she'll skip over the cheese and instead just pick up the dumbbell by the end and parade her way back to me (she DOES bring it back...good start!).

Don't get me wrong, I love her enthusiasm, but she's not really stopping to think. There are thinkers, and there are doers. Strauss is a hardcore thinker, and works really hard to connect all the dots. Mirada is a doer, in which she does very little thinking in this capacity, and just goes "IT MOVED!! I GO GET IT!!!! YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Should I approach the squeezy cheese thing in a different manner?

Overall I'm very happy with how she's doing.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

How about shaping it? Grab a clicker and only click for her putting her mouth around the bar. Do nothing when she mouths the ends.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Does Mirada know how clickers work? This is how I'd do it (and did, before I got bored/lost the dumbell and moved on).

Dog, Dumbell on floor, clicker, 50 treats (small) in 5 piles of 10. Work with ten treats at a time. Raise criteria when Mirada gets 8 of 10 treats.

Criteria 1: Click for ANY interaction with the dumbell. You can probably jump to physical contact, but you want to interrupt her from picking it up. Even if she is nosing the bells or whatever, click to interrupt. 
Criteria 2: Interaction with the outside face of the bells does not count. If she licks the inside of the bell, bites the top of the bell, whatever. That gets a c/t. Still click before she can pick it up 
Criteria 3: Interaction with the bells does not count. Only ANY interaction with the bell counts. C/t, don't let her pick it up. If she's been reliably nosing/going to bite the dumbell, break here (I would break for the day at least on this exercise) otherwise that's your next criteria.

When you start dumbell work again the next day, see if she goes straight for the bar. If she does, great! Your problem is solved! If not, c/t more for interaction just with the bar. 

Basically you want to make it clear to her that only the bar pays off. You start by clicking for any interaction to get across the idea that yes the dumbbell is what you're playing with, then make your definition of what pays off narrower and narrower. Depending on how fast she figures out the game, you might be able to skip step 2, but if she's not getting it you need to narrow the available bite surface slower. 

If the dumbbell looks like this: |||---||| you're clicking for anything at first.
Then you're clicking for this: ||---||
Then this: |---|
Then finally just the bar: ---


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

This may sound a little insane and counterintuative but it has worked for both my dogs.

When they are consistent with retrieving the dumbell, I start yelling "NO!" when they pick it up on the end and I don't let them finish the retrieve, I bring them back and do it again and do it as many times as it takes to get a bar grab and then "WOO HOO!! GOOD DOG!" when they pick it up in the middle.

I have only had to yell "no" twice with Hawkeye and he now has almost perfect retrieves (we have to work on him running it over still) but he never grabs the end anymore.

I'm sure i have probably just had really good timing and luck with my corrections to make this crazy method work.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She knows the clicker, but I chucked it for a verbal marker, because my Tourette's ends up causing me to mark behaviors I don't want.

I've been trying to make it clear that I only want the bar, the problem is she's so proud to carry anything, she really doesn't care if she's right.

In any case "A dumbbell...I has one"









With Mirada, I can't yell no at her. She shuts down entirely and refuses to work anymore. She's very handler sensitive, unlike Strauss who just goes "Oh, not right? Sorry, I try again."

I'll continue with the marker work


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

I was going to suggest a clicker too, but I can't get my dog to grasp that he is physically capable of holding something and sitting at the same time. So therefore I'm not the best to give advice out in this situation ^_^
But other than that, it sounds like she's well on her way. Once she learns to grasp the bar instead of the ends, she'll be kicking butt 

OK Mirada, you have the most gorgeous face in the GSD world  

*With Mirada, I can't yell no at her. She shuts down entirely and refuses to work anymore. She's very handler sensitive,*
That's how Tag is, too. What does she do if you just go "aht" or "uht uht"? Could you "load" a NRM (like "nah") to mean nothing bad, nothing good...100% neutral? 
* unlike Strauss who just goes "Oh, not right? Sorry, I try again."*
Lucky. Auz says "screw you and your ideas...I like my way better. ::: paws on hips & smirk ::: SO MAKE ME!"


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Basically you want to make a contrast between what is right and what isn't. You can also try turning away and ignoring her when she gets the end. I find disgust is a good consequence for undesired behavoir.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Basically you want to make a contrast between what is right and what isn't. You can also try turning away and ignoring her when she gets the end. *I find disgust is a good consequence for undesired behavoir*.


Too bad it doesn't work on men.
::ducking and running::
To keep it dog related, since Tag was very young an annoyed sigh made him crate himself. Fighting with my computer, fighting with cooking related fires, and generally being annoyed = mom in a bad mood = no lovin and no cookies. If he makes a mistake in training I have to remind myself NOT to make an annoyed sigh. Sometimes the softies of the world are easy, and sometimes they're the most difficult to train because you have to be SO aware of what you're doing. 
If I heave an annoyed sigh around Auz, he's like "COOL! Now I'll be annoyed and sit here and whine for 45 minutes..."


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You can also try turning away and ignoring her when she gets the end.


She doesn't care if I ignore her. She enjoys it as a funky toy, and parades around with it, pleased as punch.

Strauss thinks she's an idiot.

I just quietly take the dumbbell from her and offer her no praise or anything else. I've been trying "aht" type things, and while she does not shut down as quickly, she still ends up going into avoidance before too long.

This is the only behavior I really freeshape, so it can be really frustrating because I'm pretty impatient


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Super-jackpot-party-time for holding the bar maybe and then nothing for the ends? (I'm sure you are already doing this though... hmmmm.) I don't know.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I can't even go back to what I did with Strauss, because the issue I had was just getting him to take the dumbbell in general, but once he did, he understood to pick up the bar only. He never had attempted to pick it up by the ends.

I think what I'm going to try is holding the bar by the ends with it on the floor and get her to pick it up that way, and slowly move my hands away from it. The less time she spends with her mouth on the ends, the better.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

slight idea ... maybe you could make something that instead of being a full dumbbell only has one side that is extended ... so it kinda looks like a table with legs ... more like |_____| (thats upsidedown, I can't think of a way to make it right side up with computer symbols). But then you set it on the floor so that way there is only a bar to really hold? I don't know if this would confuse her more or if it would help.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Can you hold it with one hand? Don't let her have it if her mouth touches the other bell or your hand, but do let her have it if she gets the bar. You can also try holding it between your knees and then sliding it toward your feet; or holding it in one hand closer and closer to the floor and then moving your hand further and further away.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She'll take it from a single hand by the bar. I think what she understands is that she must take it from my hands by the bar, and it's not translating fully into "you must always take it by the bar". Good ideas with the knees and what not.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I was going to suggest holding it with just one hand too, but apparently that's out. 

What would she do if you held it in place on the ground with your feet, do you think? I'm imagining she wouldn't have much room to grab the bells and would grab the bar (which you would mark obviously). 

Maybe your feet could be the bridge between your hands holding it and picking it straight off from the floor. You can move on to moving one foot gradually away from a side to give her room for error. If she goes for the bell, tap your foot against the dumbbell to keep her from being able to grab it and go back to square one. 

I had the same issue with Frag and we're still working on it, but saying AH AH or NO works well for him since he isn't too sensitive.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well, I don't know exactly what I did, but even though the positioning of the dumbbell isn't the best, Mirada is retrieving a live dumbbell by the bar and not the stump 

BTW, she's figuring out heel position and it's GORGEOUS!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Yay! Magic!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

We'll see if she'll do it again today. She's enthusiastic enough about the dumbbell that I took it out this morning and she tried to steal it from me! We're going to work on keeping that enthusiasm, but in a more restrained way.

I have to say, heel work not withstanding (which is my fault, not her fault), she's fun to work most of the time.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Xeph said:


> she's fun to work most of the time.


How it should be!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

My strongest inclination would be to tear the whole thing back down to zero. Start again fresh from square one, ... and slowly backchain it.




> When I hold it in my hands, she has no option but to bite the bar (which she does enthusiastically).


I'd be a little cautious of her "biting" the bar, even moreso if it's done "enthusiastically". Too much enthusiasm can lead to unwanted glitches ... like "rolling" etc. I would much rather have the dog #1 .. learn to softly HOLD the dumbell, CALMLY and patiently, especially in the initial learning stages. 




> Yes, I have done the squeezy cheese thing, but she only licks it off, she doesn't put her mouth around it. *Sometimes she'll skip over the cheese and instead just pick up the dumbbell by the end* and parade her way back to me


I'm not sure if I'm understanding the intent of the squeeze cheese correctly.

If you are in fact putting it on the BAR, then why not try putting it on the ENDS instead .... just to see what happens. Maybe when you put it on the bar she's thinking .. "Awww man ! YUCK ! you really messed it up, exactly on the part I wanted to pick it up by !" I highly doubt it but, hey, ya never know  

Aside from the above experiment I would forego the entire cheese idea altogether, as she already has interest in picking it up, ... albeit by the bells.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

What if you eliminated any chance of her picking it up by the blocky ends?

I would try to go to Home Depot and buy just a plain dowel of the relatively same size so it has no ends on it. Practice with this for awhile. This way it eliminates those blocky ends and almost makes her take the middle. 

After awhile you can slowly introduce some end pieces that are small at first. Maybe superglue like two golf balls on the end or something and reward for picking up in the middle. Then work your way up to competition dumbbell.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She's stopped picking it up by the ends and is consistently (for the time frame) picking up by the bar. Her holding is beautiful. I say "bite" the bar because to me, regardless of the pressure, that's what the dog is doing. Her mouth overall is very gentle and always has been. She has a firm but calm hold, and a very quiet mouth.

It's very different to teach her because she's so different from Mouse (who is not a quiet holder or retriever...he'll roll and chew on the bell, she does not). 

I brought out Strauss's High Angle bell and she's picking it up quite happily by the bar...I think she was mashing her nose on the floor and didn't care for that, so she picked up the part where that owuldn't happen.

I like the enthusiasm and would prefer to teach the dog to tone it down than start with a flat dog. I see too many dogs with unhappy dull retrieves. She just needs a quiet reminder not to steal it. After starting with a dog who HATED the dumbbell, I'll take enthusiasm. It's not hard to keep the enthusiasm and teach the dog to cap it. She's doing very well.

I took some video, but unless I can get somewhere with some free wifi, I won't be able to upload it for awhile >.<

Here are a couple more pictures though. I'm really proud of her. She's doing better than Mouse did 



















ETA: BTW I got rid of putting cheese and what not on the bar at all. Just using a plain bar, and she has no issue with that. She also doesn't drop the bell when I give her the marker that she is correct.

We'll see if she's actually learning what I think I'm marking, or if I've taught her something else xD


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

Disregard last post, please!

Awesome to hear Xeph. I'm glad she is doing so well!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Gah, I feel bad. I posted while you posted your initial post and missed it. Sorry! Please don't think I was ignoring you x.x

She's currently curled up in a ball on the couch, completely zonked. It's a lot of thinking for her, lol.

I have to say, I can forgive her tiny head when she's got a dumbbell in her face. I think THAT looks downright pretty!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Gah, I feel bad. I posted while you posted your initial post and missed it. Sorry! Please don't think I was ignoring you x.x
> 
> She's currently curled up in a ball on the couch, completely zonked. It's a lot of thinking for her, lol.
> 
> I have to say, I can forgive her tiny head when she's got a dumbbell in her face. I think THAT looks downright pretty!


I think she's pretty cute holding the dumbbell, too. Love the first shot.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Thanks  I'm really glad that she actually ENJOYS carrying objects. Last night we were working on it, and she took it....and ran away from me. She jumped up on the couch with it. I called her back, and when she left it on the couch I told her to go get it for me, and she did 

We'll be working on just moving from sitting to standing and back again with the dumbbell in her mouth pretty soon. I've always wondered why there's such a disconnect between a dog sitting and holding. It's like they can do one or the other, but not both at the same time, lol.

I'm going to work on heel position more and finally name it as well, and then start proofing the position. I don't think I'll be telling her to bring the dumbbell like I do for Strauss though. She seems to prefer a hand signal.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> We'll be working on just moving from sitting to standing and back again with the dumbbell in her mouth pretty soon. I've always wondered why there's such a disconnect between a dog sitting and holding. It's like they can do one or the other, but not both at the same time, lol.


Most dogs won't sit and hold?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If you give the dog the dumbbell WHILE sitting, they will hold it, but when you give it to the dog standing, and then command them to sit, they will drop the dumbbell. They've basically forgotten they've got the object in their mouth, and in trying to please you with the sit, the dumbbell falls out (there is a difference between spitting it out and dropping it because the concentration stopped).

I equate it to learning how to sharpen a pencil. It's hard to be coordinated with it at first, because you need to both focus on holding the pencil in place and turning the crank. It can be very difficult, but once you get the motion down, it becomes old hat, and you don't even think about it anymore.

When the dog first learns about the dumbbell, they concentrate very hard on holding it in their mouths, because it's new and awkward, but eventually it's like the dumbbell "isn't there", and they maintain a firm grip on it.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> If you give the dog the dumbbell WHILE sitting, they will hold it, but when you give it to the dog standing, and then command them to sit, they will drop the dumbbell. They've basically forgotten they've got the object in their mouth, and in trying to please you with the sit, the dumbbell falls out (there is a difference between spitting it out and dropping it because the concentration stopped).
> 
> I equate it to learning how to sharpen a pencil. It's hard to be coordinated with it at first, because you need to both focus on holding the pencil in place and turning the crank. It can be very difficult, but once you get the motion down, it becomes old hat, and you don't even think about it anymore.
> 
> When the dog first learns about the dumbbell, they concentrate very hard on holding it in their mouths, because it's new and awkward, but eventually it's like the dumbbell "isn't there", and they maintain a firm grip on it.


Oh, okay, that makes sense. I was confused and thought you meant they just won't do it and Frag had no problem learning from a sit which would have been strange. 

We haven't moved on to actually doing things with it yet (just bought a dumbbell last week) so I'm sure we'll have our share of issues.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> If you give the dog the dumbbell WHILE sitting, they will hold it, but when you give it to the dog standing, and then command them to sit, they will drop the dumbbell. They've basically forgotten they've got the object in their mouth, and in trying to please you with the sit, the dumbbell falls out (there is a difference between spitting it out and dropping it because the concentration stopped).
> 
> I equate it to learning how to sharpen a pencil. It's hard to be coordinated with it at first, because you need to both focus on holding the pencil in place and turning the crank. It can be very difficult, but once you get the motion down, it becomes old hat, and you don't even think about it anymore.
> 
> When the dog first learns about the dumbbell, they concentrate very hard on holding it in their mouths, because it's new and awkward, but eventually it's like the dumbbell "isn't there", and they maintain a firm grip on it.


Tag says it's not fair, because he can't sit/hold OR sharpen a pencil


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

From the look of the dumbbell I would say the ends are nto deep enough. She takes the bar out of your hand but not off the floor because (I bet) her chin or nose touches the floor. Yes, she CAN take it just behind the canines and roll it back in her nouth and NOT hit the floor but mouthing is not desirable. 

Get a dumb bell with deeper ends and I bet your issue will be solved. I had to get a custom one from MAX 200 for $27 for Atka. When I got one with deeper ends she has never picked it up incorrectly again.

From the second photo of her I think she needs a slightly longer bar too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I've already switched dumbbells and we're not having nose mashing issues. The bar actually fits her very well, though it's too snug for Strauss.

All my "custom dumbbells" are from Max200 and not a one of them actually fits the face of the dog I bought them for. I won't buy from them anymore.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I saw that you had switched and seen an improvment after I posted. I still think that Mirada will grow and a slightly longer bar would help her. 

I took Atka with me to a show where Max 200 had a booth and they measured her in person and fitted her. For a dog who thinks, "You threw it dummy, YOU go get it" she has become a dumbbell retrieveing fool. Of course, I have done other things with her to build her drive.. but having the article fit her really helped a lot.


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