# French Ring questions



## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

We have an opportunity to trial for a Brevet in a few months. Having never even seen a FR trial except on YouTube, I was hoping a few people out there might be able to share some information. We have never trained for FR, never really intended to trial in it either, but a friend is hosting a trial and we were informed that we were expected to be there. 

My first question is about the temperament test prior to the trial. I cannot seem to find many details about what exactly this is. Is this something that is just up to the discretion of the judge, or are there specific criteria for what the dog can and cannot do (other than the obvious like biting the judge)? I don't expect any issues here or anything, but I do like to know before going in to it what we're expected to do.

During the defense of handler with gun fire, does the dog have to walk backwards like they all do in the videos I've seen? Naturally, Nico will wrap himself around the handler and kind of crab walk in front of the handler with his head on the handlers right side, looking back at the decoy. The walking backwards looks really cool, and I'd love to train it just for fun, but it would be low on the priority list for the trial if it does not need to happen that way. 

Also during the defense of handler, what exactly is the point at which the dog is allowed to bite? Does the decoy have to make contact with the handler first, does the dog bite when the decoy makes an aggressive move towards the handler, or when they fire the gun? Or does all of this happen pretty much at the same time?

During the face or frontal attack, do the decoys esquive the dogs? For that matter, do the decoys esquive the dogs at all during the Brevet?

After the out on the protection exercises, does the dog have to offer the guard without a command from the handler or are you allowed to give a guard command prior to asking the dog to return to heel?

I think that about covers it. If there are questions I should be asking, but am not, please let me know. This should be interesting, but definitely will be fun.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Are you expected to be there in support, or to trial?? You should absolutely NOT trial if your dog has never had training in protection sports.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

PM sent. :wave:


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## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

Sibe said:


> Are you expected to be there in support, or to trial?? You should absolutely NOT trial if your dog has never had training in protection sports.


Oh, we are expected to trial. He has years of protection training - just not FR specifically. 

Juliemule, thanks for the pm.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Personally, I would refuse to trial. You have too many questions to trial in thibcase, IMO. It's setting the dog up to fail, not o mention other potential issues.


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## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Personally, I would refuse to trial. You have too many questions to trial in thibcase, IMO. It's setting the dog up to fail, not o mention other potential issues.


Wow....well, thanks for the "support". 

Do you know anything about my dog? Or are you just going to assume, much like the other poster, that I intend to walk into a FR trial and give it a go because my "guard dog" bit the paperboy a few times, so he must be a great prospect for FR? And, for the record in case anyone reads that wrong, that is blatant sarcasm. 

Gimme a break. I have too many questions to trial, when the trial is months away and we're talking about possibly changing a default behavior on an "out" from a heel to a guard? The dog has a guard, it's just not what he has been trained to offer after an "out" by default. Because of the few other specific (very specific) questions, my dog is doomed to fail? He's been exposed to gunfire, and knows handler defense very well, he's had decoys esquive him, and his obedience needs very little to be trial ready. His temperament is great, has a CGC and may go for a TDI. He has virtually everything needed to trail, which is why our friend is pressuring us to do so - because she believes we can do it.

And what, exactly, are these "other potential issues" I may encounter? Please elaborate. 

What is the worst thing that can happen? We trial under a judge coming in from France (who I believe is judging the Selectifs this year), with a dog that has 3+ years of personal protection training and very good obedience, and we fail to get the Brevet? That's not going to make me love my dog less, and I promise he'll have fun regardless of the outcome. We'll have fun, hang out with a lot of good friends and good people, drink good beer together after the trial, and gain experience in something we know very little about? Ya, that sounds terrible. 

Geez. I was hoping for responses from people with FR experience, not people assuming we're doomed to fail. Thanks though, you can personally refuse to do things for fear of possibly failing. That's just not how I roll.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Seriously, what are you going to fail at? A training opportunity? A fun day? So if you don't win, the dog doesn't know unless the owner shows disappointment.

Your dog is trained in obedience, trained in protection. Learn a few moves, practice, and go. It's a sport, its a routine, as long as the decoys are good ( or helper) its not going to hurt a thing, and may even get you wanting to compete. 

Go for it! Have fun and good luck!


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## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

Thanks juliemule, that's how my wife and I are approaching it. The first trial we went to, years ago, we went for a UKC Family Obedience title. He only had about 4 months of protection training at that point, and while we were at the trial we were pushed to consider trialing for the Protection Alert title since we passed the FO with flying colors (by the dogs breeder, not somebody who does not know us or the dog). We figured why not, and what do you know, he pulled it off. Barely, but even if he had failed, we wouldn't have been disappointed in him. First and foremost, he's a family dog. He's neutered, so it's not like we're trying to slap titles on him so we can breed him - it's simply for fun, for both the people and the dog. 

What's important is that my wife and I will have fun, and our dog will have fun. Not sure why people are posting anything other than "Good luck" if they cannot or do not want to answer the questions. Seriously, entering a FR trial with no protection training? At least take the 60 seconds to look at a few of the pictures I have up before making that assumption. I posted these questions here because I thought the community here was more supportive of beginner questions than some of the other forums I'm on.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I was looking at it from a trainin perspective and what he dog knows and doesn't know.

I'm familiar with protection sports and have zero problem with them. You also made a few assumptions yourself. A dog being trained in one protection sport does not equate to being ready/able to do another immediately. I'd also be hesitant if I had so many questions about rules and what not yet, but you know, you can go on with your rude self and do what you want.

And you're right, I'm not big on setting myself or my dog up to fail and looking like a doofus.

I gave an honest opinion that was not intended to be a negative reflection on your dog. I wouldn't tell somebody that runs AKC agility to run out and enter a trial to run "colors" in another venue if they were so unfamiliar with it either.
So at least take 60 seconds to read what I ACTUALLY wrote instead f makin assumptions about what I said.


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## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I was looking at it from a trainin perspective and what he dog knows and doesn't know.
> 
> I'm familiar with protection sports and have zero problem with them. You also made a few assumptions yourself. A dog being trained in one protection sport does not equate to being ready/able to do another immediately. I'd also be hesitant if I had so many questions about rules and what not yet, but you know, you can go on with your rude self and do what you want.
> 
> ...


Oh my. I read your response. I just disagree with it, every single word of it as a matter of fact. I'm sorry that I disagree. To be perfectly fair, I felt it was a tad more rude than my response, but again I am sorry you felt that way. I also thought that I mentioned the fact that the trial was months away, which isn't what I'd call "immediately". I am hesitant, which is why I am trying to gather information. I want to know exactly what we need to train, and determine if we have the time to do so. 

I know you are familiar with protection sports, I've lurked here long enough to have seen posts of your GSD's doing Schutzhund work. I am also intelligent enough to know that just because a dog knows personal protection does not mean he/she can walk in to a FR trial and title. That's kind of the point of my post, to gather a bit of specific information that to me, when I read the rules, was a bit unclear. Perhaps it's because I'm a doofus that I do not understand the rules as written, but I also though that was the point of forums like this - to ask people with more experience than you.

I did read your original post. And I happen to have a different outlook on things than you do. That's fine, that's what makes the world go'round. It doesn't change the fact that we fully intend to train and trial. 

I'm still anxiously awaiting all these other potential issues, might as well hear them since this thread managed to completely derail.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well, I don't think you're a doofus, and again, wasn't meant to be a negative reflection on you or your dog. We just disagree on what is too soon and what is not. I don't know how many months out the trial is, as you didn't specify (that I saw). 3 months away? Wouldn't do it, myself. 6-8? Potentially more likely. But then, I still haven't trialled for my BH because I can't remember the pattern (neurological issue), and as I said, I'm not big on looking silly. I can't laugh it off, I just feel crappy.

The nice thing about ring, at least, is that the dog gets a full bite suit rather than just a sleeve.

If you posted specifically what protection sport the dog has been trained in in the first post, I may have missed it, as I didn't see PPD prior. Having to read on phone (Verizon Internet sucks an I haven't had computer access to it in like a month) + new glasses = potential miss.

Also, I swear I can spell. Typing on a phone is just horrendous.


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## climber (Apr 28, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Well, I don't think you're a doofus, and again, wasn't meant to be a negative reflection on you or your dog. We just disagree on what is too soon and what is not. I don't know how many months out the trial is, as you didn't specify (that I saw). 3 months away? Wouldn't do it, myself. 6-8? Potentially more likely. But then, I still haven't trialled for my BH because I can't remember the pattern (neurological issue), and as I said, I'm not big on looking silly. I can't laugh it off, I just feel crappy.
> 
> The nice thing about ring, at least, is that the dog gets a full bite suit rather than just a sleeve.
> 
> ...


Understood. The trial is about 3 months away, I thought I mentioned it but I may have removed it since the original post was so long anyway. The dog has 3+ years of personal protection training, nothing sport specific. We played around with Schutzhund for a bit, but found that the sport wasn't for us or our dog. Respect the sport, just wasn't for us.

His obedience is great, his temperament is great. To me, I look at that and think "we're 2/3rds of the way there already". We have some work to do with the muzzle, but that's not something I'm concerned with. He loves clicker training, and that's how we're introducing the muzzle. Before too long he'll love the thing.

I am also very happy with his protection training. It's just never been focused on FR. He's happy on a sleeve or a suit, but has never been taught leg bites (and we have no intention of teaching him leg bites). There are some things that we trained that may need to be altered, greatly or slightly, if we want to pass the Brevet. I'm just trying to make sure I understand exactly what those things are before I waste time training something I did not need to because I misunderstood. I'm not asking how to train these things, I'm just trying to be sure I understand the rules correctly. We train protection every weekend with a club (nobody there has FR experience either), so we'll be training something between now and the trial anyway - why not have a specific goal? 

My wife and I are fine with whatever happens. It's not that we seek out things to do that we most likely will fail at, but if we don't try we'll never know. Like I said, the outcome will not make me look at my dog differently. And, somehow the dog always manages to step up when the time comes, he's never failed to date. 

Again, I'm sorry you felt I was being rude, and I'm sorry if I was being rude. I was just honestly very, very shocked at the complete negativity of some of the responses. Only juliemule had anything supportive or constructive to offer. I am used to this place being much more positive and supportive of its members.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I actually try very hard to be supportive so it does bother me when people take concern as them being chastised, as that is not the intent. But misunderstandings happen.

I also understand that schutzhund isn't for everyone. That's ok . Wasn't for me until we found the right club (accepts my American GSDs).

You DO have a leg up, having done PPD work, and I do sincerely wish you luck


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I was looking at it from a trainin perspective and what he dog knows and doesn't know.
> 
> I'm familiar with protection sports and have zero problem with them. You also made a few assumptions yourself. A dog being trained in one protection sport does not equate to being ready/able to do another immediately. I'd also be hesitant if I had so many questions about rules and what not yet, but you know, you can go on with your rude self and do what you want.
> 
> ...


Xeph, have you titled in any protection sports? I've jumped from one venue to another in other areas (not protection - only worked in SchH) and if one has questions, first place to look is the rule book. Next place is pick the brain of someone who has done it successfully. If I never crossed into other sports, I'd still just have dogs titled in Obedience. One's never totally sure of going into a new sport or unknown venue. The rules for APDT Rally are quite different from AKC. Yet, Alice had no trouble transitioning. The rules for AKC and AHBA herding trials are VERY different than ASCA working trials. But my dogs have had no problem working in all three. Part of the fun of working with dogs is finding new and challenging venues. I wish the OP good luck and a lot of fun.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Xeph said:


> But then, I still haven't trialled for my BH because I can't remember the pattern (neurological issue), and as I said, I'm not big on looking silly. .


Diagram it out on the palm of your hand. That's what I did. (No neurological issue, but very directionally impaired)


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