# Whining and Yelping in Crate? How do we fix it?



## cvgordy (Dec 23, 2014)

*Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

This thread started as a "Barking and Whining in crate" thread, I then attempted to change gears to a "puppy was hurting us anytime we tried to play with him" thread but that didn't work.

Everyone was still focused on a problem that was no longer the issue. I've since updated this first post in an attempt to fix it as I doubt everyone reads more than this.

The issue we "were" having was the dog did no understand any commands like "NO" or "Yelp" or standing up, or leaving the room. He would continue to bite us very hard and bark often if we tried to get him to stop.

This has been mostly resolved and we're still working to teach him proper house training and how to play nicely.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

I have never done the cover the crate, many will learn to accept it if they are ignored. What I would do since you are home most of the time is start with short periods of him being in the crate. When he stops whining wait a min or two and praise him and let him out for a bit. And then repeat. You then want to leave him in the crate for longer.
Do you crate him at night??


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

What have you done to get him to like the crate? 

Have you done crate games with him? That would probably help. I don't have the link on hand, but Google "puppy crate games." 

You should also try feeding him exclusively in his crate for a while. 

Stuffed kongs work really well too.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Crate games: http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2009/02/crate-games-it-is-not-just-for-breakfast-anymore/


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## cvgordy (Dec 23, 2014)

We found the entire solution (it seems) to all of our problems. I know many probably won't agree with this, but it seems to have fixed everything after only half a day.

We have a small wooden plank, and we hold him beside us, spank him, and shout no. He stops whatever it is he was doing, sometimes he goes in his crate for 10-15 seconds. After a short period, we get down on the floor and are sweet/calm with him. He comes out wagging his tail wanting to play more. We repeated this a few times and he no longer bites either of us, doesn't yelp/whine in his crate much, hasn't had one accident inside (yet), etc

We spoke to some family members who have had multiple dogs (at a time) all their lives and they all spanked them when they were bad. One family member has an English Mastiff (I think?) male, not neutered. They had to be very strict and firm with him to keep him from being alpha in the house. That dog is the sweetest, largest, best behaved dog we know...

FYI:

This morning things have been great. A sharp "NO" causes him to listen right away, before he would just ignore it and/or start to bark back at us. It looks like the entire solution was a few spanks to let him know what "NO" means and who is boss!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh jesus Christ, I don't have time for this crap but you're just a jerk and you are ruining your dog. 

From, you know, a lady with multiple dogs her whole life - some of them some big serious breeds - who have never been yelled at or beaten with a board.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Oh jesus Christ, I don't have time for this crap but you're just a jerk and you are ruining your dog.
> 
> From, you know, a lady with multiple dogs her whole life - some of them some big serious breeds - who have never been yelled at or beaten with a board.


Ditto.

Smacking a BABY puppy with a wood board is not training, its not teaching, its not building a relationship and partnership with the dog. It is creating fear and will cause a loss of trust. A dog that will grow to be as large as most adult humans is a dog that you particularly want to build a solid foundation of mutual trust and caring from day one.

Babies, both puppies and kids, will cry when upset. You wouldn't smack a 4 month old bay to stop them from crying when lonely or stressed right? So don't smack the baby puppy either.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Ew. Yeah, it's been great for you, but you hitting him is not making your puppy like the crate. It's just making him not whine. So he's still miserable in his crate, he's just not allowed to say anything about it. 

Crate training is literally one of the easiest things to teach a dog with positive reinforcement, and you take the easy way out and hit your dog. It's not "spanking," it's hitting. Your dog is going to be scared of you if you continue. Now, he's also not going to whine if he's hurt because hell be afraid that you're going to hit him. 

Please stop now before you ruin your dog.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

I understand that it is working for you and you are happy that he is doing what you want. However with that said hitting will cause other issues-no trust, fear, and possible fear aggression. It is your choice to do it and/or keep doing it. I have seen others do it and then when the dog is big enough they fight back or get lose and never come back. My brother did the same thing and he got attacked by his own dog.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I'll add a few thoughts in addition to my prior comment---
First, "alpha" theory has been solidly debunked, even the man who basically coined the term has retracted his observations on captive wolves and said they are not applicable to either domestic dogs or wild wolves. You do not have to worry that your puppy is trying to take over the house. Instead of a dominant and submissive setup, think of it like being a good school teacher where you are in charge yes but you are also giving the kid (pup) direction and guidance and life skills and setting them up for success. Not punishing natural reactions and not giving corrections for a task that isn't yet learned. 

Smacking and hitting runs the risk of creating a hand shy dog which is a danger for kids, passersby on walks, vet staff etc. It makes teaching recall harder and good recall is something that can save a dog's life. 

If you make negative associations with the crate now, you lose a valuable tool in the future since even if you don't crate daily at home, it can be required at a vets office or during healing from an injury or surgery, or while travelling, or in an emergency shelter during a natural disaster etc.

Anything that associates the humans with pain or fear has a risk of fallout in the future. Positive training can seem to take a little longer to see the effects but it has very little chance of back firing.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

We seriously have someone hitting their dog with a plank of wood? SERIOUSLY? That is the best a HUMAN BEING can think up to "train" a PUP? 

You've received some good advice in this thread, OP. I would like to stress that the #1 most important thing to teach a puppy - more important than 'sit' or crate training or anything else - is TRUST in its owner, you. You may solve a puppy's whining, this time, with a smack, but you create a relationship with a growing, learning animal based in punishment and fear, not trust and confidence. Believe me, you desire a confident dog that WANTS to do the right thing, not a fearful dog that is afraid to do the wrong thing. Please reconsider your training methods.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Your dog is a baby and you're beating the poor thing with a plank of wood. I am literally on the verge of tears right now. I wish I knew where you lived so I could report you to the proper authorities and have that poor puppy placed with someone who doesn't hit their dogs.


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## cvgordy (Dec 23, 2014)

I assumed this was the type of response I would get on a site like this, however I wanted to be honest and share our frustrations and concerns with others to see if they had some advice.

I think there might have been some misunderstandings and confusion caused by myself? Yelping and Whining in the crate is not the primary issue, it was the start of this thread, which is where I think the confusion came from?

The primary concern for us is the aggression and biting from the puppy. He has pulled chunks of flush off both my girlfriends and my arm, broken skin multiple times. Any attempt to shout "no" or "ouch" is met with barking. Standing up quickly and leaving the room obviously prevents us from getting bitten until we return and he starts again right away...

Just for reference, we spanked the puppy 3 times I believe 3 days ago while yelling "no" and forcing him to stay near us and be calm. After that, he now listens to "No" and we haven't hit or otherwise since. 

When we tell him No he immediately stops whatever it is he's doing. He resumes playing with his toys / us and everyone seems happy. We haven't been bit beyond a little nibble by accident in probably 24-36 hours?

Animal cruelty or abuse is top on our list of things we hate. We love our puppy and want to give him the best life we can. I've yelled at kids for picking on small stray animals for "fun" and if I ever saw a human harm an animal of ANY kind for no reason I wouldn't hesitate to return the favor (eye for an eye).

What I think people fail to understand here is that if this 40lb puppy is hurting us already and refuses to listen and eventually causes my Girlfriend to be afraid of him, we won't be able to keep him... At that point he will be in a shelter somewhere and likely end up being killed as he'll probably be aggressive towards all humans... We are a good home for this guy and he just need to learn not to harm humans, something that I believe we can teach him now that he understands "No" 

We're on these forums to get advice and information from people... If you think that a 40lb puppy that rips flesh from his owners is "OK" behavior and something we just have to live with... then I don't know what to say.


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## cvgordy (Dec 23, 2014)

TLDR;

If you didn't want to read the long post above...

Yes, we had to spank the puppy 3x after he really hurt my girlfriend and was growling / barking at us. Since that day, we haven't touched the puppy, he understands "No" now and he is still very playful and happy to be with us.

We had to teach him "No", not to bark back at us when we tell him no, and to not hurt us. He learned this very quickly and everything is going good no (potty training aside...)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Since your post was entirely centered on whining in the crate, you can see how people are going to comment on that rather than a problem we didnt know you had.......

Puppies will bite, big puppies have more biting power but their mental maturity and impulse control isn't any better than any other 3 month old puppy. It isn't aggression in the true sense of human aggression. 

Holding him close and "forcing calm" (a forced calm isn't a true calm, it is a shut down) while smacking him and yelling only taught him that you are scary enough that he is listening to a yelled NO for now, it didn't teach him what he should be doing. Behavior can be reinforced by rewards or by punishments and right now the punishment tactic worked for you but puppies have a tendancy to push boundaries and turn into teenage dogs so while reward based training lets you up the reward and use variable rewards, what does punishment leave you with?

Part of what got people going in your last post is the alpha talk, people following those outdated ideas tend to set up an adversarial relationship with their dog and see every natural dog behavior as a challange to their 'alpha' status rather than just a dog being a dog. Its not a fun way to interact with your dog and it can cause behavior problems later.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

cvgordy said:


> Just for reference, we spanked the puppy 3 times I believe 3 days ago while yelling "no" and forcing him to stay near us and be calm. After that, he now listens to "No" and we haven't hit or otherwise since.
> 
> When we tell him No he immediately stops whatever it is he's doing.


I'd confidently wager that your dog is reliving that spanking every time he hears the word "NO" now. Even though it may not seem that way to you.

Stop spanking your dog. Stop using "no" to elicit what you *think* is proper behavior. And stop listening to your family and what they claim worked for them, they don't know shyte from shoe polish. Get to a professional trainer, a PURELY positive trainer for in-person help and guidance. Fast.

Good grief.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

No one has suggest that you "just learn to live with" a dog that thinks biting people is okay. No one on this forum would suggest that. I highly doubt your pup is truly aggressive; he's most likely playing with you, just waaay too roughly. Puppies bite and scratch. Some break skin and tear clothing. They bark. Large breed puppies knock people over and can do more damage. Puppies are naturally little hellions, and of course, it's unacceptable. We need to teach puppy how to live in our human world, how to live by our rules, which is why we TRAIN them not to bite, to bark, or to jump. Positive methods work. You won't get the instant results that you sometimes do when you use fear and pain, but you will teach without any of the inevitable, unintentional fallout. 

I would highly recommend contacting a positive behaviorist, especially if you think it's true aggression. Again, I doubt it. Your situation (aggressive puppy!) is one we read over and over and over on this forum, and a situation I've experienced and survived myself. But! This is the internet, and we can't see the puppy firsthand.

I should also mention that if you were to dump an untrained bitey, jumping dog at the animal shelter, it would still have a better chance than a hand-shy, fear aggressive dog born of punishment training.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

cvgordy said:


> I assumed this was the type of response I would get on a site like this, however I wanted to be honest and share our frustrations and concerns with others to see if they had some advice.
> 
> I think there might have been some misunderstandings and confusion caused by myself? Yelping and Whining in the crate is not the primary issue, it was the start of this thread, which is where I think the confusion came from?
> 
> ...


I have decided to share this story because it started just like yours and he did the same thing:
3 month old labadoole was the cutest thing on four paws, about 15 pounds. My brother got it for the family was told that they had good personalities just like labs. He was into the whole Cesar Millan and alpha rolls stuff. When the puppy would bite he would smack/or sidekick or roll the dog. It worked for a while until the dog was 10-11 months old. 
When the dog got bigger he would shy away from bring touched and snap at my brothers children which was a no-no, I am sure the dog knew that it would get hit just did not seem to care anymore. At a year old the dog was about 40 pounds still nipping , my brother tried to alpha roll the him, the dog had had enough an attacked him in the face/shoulder-- The next day the dog was put down for being aggressive

Hitting does not solve anything, he may give you what you want now but you run the risk of it coming back. It solved the one problem fine-move on from there and not use that method again is the advice that I would give. What you get now is not worth what you may get in the future.


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## cvgordy (Dec 23, 2014)

I appreciate you sharing the story and we fully understand.

I feel like people have jumped to conclusions rather than talking as adults here... I guess it was my mistake mentioning this on a dog-lovers website. We've been trying every suggestion and EVERYONE has a different opinion, different experience, and different method of doing things. We were out of ideas to the point where the dog could only be locked in his crate 24/7 aside from being let out to go to bathroom, most of which he would do IN his crate.

You might say "well, don't put him in a crate then" well that's not a solution because he has to be somewhere. A confined play area resulted him him trying to jump, claw, bite his way out. An open play area (2nd floor of our town-home) resulted in him trying to attack/bite/chew anything he could get his mouth on... 

If you want a human example, my Girlfriends sister's child would bite people sometimes. One of the times she bit her grandpa and he bit her back... She has never bit another person since... She had to be taught that biting hurt people and know what it felt like. He didn't beat or abuse her, he showed her what it was like. "Golden rule, treat others how you want to be treated"

Well, when it comes to dogs, we're not going to bite him...

Maybe we're stupid people? I have a masters in Electrical Engineering, my GF has a masters as well and she's raised 2 human babies part-time (because she had family members that were incompetent parents)... And before you ask, these are not family members we go to for advice on anything.

However, it's very frustrating to read online things like:

"If your dog goes to bathroom in his Crate its the owners fault..." - Bullsh*t
"If your dog bites you, just walk away and he will learn..." - Bullsh*t
"If you yelp, your dog will stop..." - Bullsh*t
Etc...

Nowhere did we read anything useful about how to teach your dog what "NO" means. Everything talks about rewarding positive behavior, which is what we do. But nothing talks about how to correct negative behavior. We can wait 3-6 months of potty training for him to learn. We cannot have flesh torn from our skin for 6 months and hope he learns what "no" means or to stop doing it... 

I don't think people understand that we could not socialize with our own puppy the way he was acting (until now)...

FYI, The puppy LOVES other people. Everyone who lives near us wants to pet and play with him. He wags his tail and licks them and is so excited and happy to see other people AND dogs. We don't let him play with other dogs yet because he needs more shots and needs to learn to control his biting. That, and his size makes it difficult to find other younger dogs he can play with. Most So-Cal dog owners have little sh*t toy dogs that are no bigger than his poop and he would likely kill one of those.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Mine only go in their crates at night or when we arent there, which its very rare for someone to not be here, since my parents are retired. I have never done crate games or any of that, I just stick them in there and let them cry it out for a few days, praising them softly when they are quiet and ignoring them when they are being fussy.

that being said, there is a time that ignoring doesnt work and when he starts fussing (sometimes he still will a little) I will tell him "No!" and when he is quiet I praise him, that has seem to have worked very well for us.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

I am in the mindset that what the dog does is "partly" the owners fault with in reason. I really do think that you have no intention on hurting your dog but I just wanted you to know how it tends to be a circle of what is done. My educated guess is where you got the dog, he was adopted right? That there is something in his background that is predisposing him to do some of the things you see, That is not your or the dogs fault. His size also can be hard since it seems you have no one that has a similar size to play with- I would see if there is a class that has larger sized pups so that he can get that interaction.
Him biting and getting flesh is not a good sign and I would not call that normal biting for that age, yes they bite and my draw blood but I have never had one take flesh. 

Personally I would use a leash and have him with you then put him in the crate as this will give him more teaching interactions- if you are at home most of the day this my stop his behaviors. And crate only at night. 

Trust me Toy size dogs are just as pain in the ass as larger ones, and are often ones that can cause issues and get away with it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

The reason there is little mentioned of how to teach a dog what NO means is that it doesn't really mean much of anything. People use NO to ask a dog to do a zillion different things, we humans think it is one thing-- as in, stop doing whatever you're doing-- but to a dog, it can mean only stop one action or maybe one part of an action and doesn't tell the dog what he should be doing instead. 

Much better to train specific commands like Leave It, Drop It, Wait, etc.

Most puppy classes can be started at 12+ weeks old because the facilities require proof of vaccinations for all the dogs and should be cleaning well too. Socializing isnt just with puppies though, well mannered adult dogs that know how to behave with puppies can be useful for teaching him bite inhibition. I'm sure not all dogs in SoCal are toy dogs, (btw, toy dogs are just as much dogs as the big ones so don't disparage them) and some boisterous young adult dogs that can play hard and lively with him can be good for tiring him out and teaching him limits.

Was he by any chance particularly young when he left his litter? That can make it harder to train bite inhibition because the dog misses out on learning from his litter mates.

Not all dogs respond to the yelp method, that has been mentioned here a fair number of times that people found other sounds or tactics worked better for their dogs. Yelps wind up some puppies so those sometimes do better with a deeper noise or another unusual sound.

The mention of it being the human's "fault" if a young puppy pees in the crate is true, in the sense that it cannot be the pup's "fault" as the pup doesn't yet have the physical control and mental awareness. People thing of fault as assigning blame to willful negative choice, the pup cannot make a willful choice to pee in his crate versus not pee in his crate at a very young age if left too long. I mean, instinct tends to make them not want to pee where they sleep but they have physical limits and only minimal control when very young. If the human doesn't provide enough potty breaks, the dog ends up peeing in the crate.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

'Yelping' is just a distinctive verbal marker, and is pretty ineffective on it's own. It should really be used in conjunction with something much more dramatic yet still benign, IMMEDIATELY AFTER the yelp. Such as removing all of your emotion and attention, or even that plus you leaving the area entirely for a considerable length of time. Just say 'ouch' or whatever, then quietly and uneventfully walk away into a different room and close the door behind you. The power is in the silence and the drama.

As far as conditioning 'no' and associating it with a plank to use as a deterrent in various other situations. This HAS to be better than a plank. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBvPaqMZyo8

You might also want to pick up and read two excellent books,_ The Power of Positive Dog Training_ by Pat Miller, and _Don't Shoot the Dog_ by Karen Pryor. My best advice right there.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

SirviRavenWind said:


> I am in the mindset that what the dog does is "partly" the owners fault with in reason. I really do think that you have no intention on hurting your dog but I just wanted you to know how it tends to be a circle of what is done. My educated guess is where you got the dog, he was adopted right? That there is something in his background that is predisposing him to do some of the things you see, That is not your or the dogs fault. His size also can be hard since it seems you have no one that has a similar size to play with- I would see if there is a class that has larger sized pups so that he can get that interaction.
> Him biting and getting flesh is not a good sign and I would not call that normal biting for that age, yes they bite and my draw blood but I have never had one take flesh.
> 
> Personally I would use a leash and have him with you then put him in the crate as this will give him more teaching interactions- if you are at home most of the day this my stop his behaviors. And crate only at night.
> ...


Oh, no its pretty common for a lab puppy ( I am assuming thats what he is??? OP can correct me if I am wrong) to be little land sharks, also the herding breeds can be devils, too. I actually has to wear tall rubber boots with my pants tucked into them and bitter spray on the boots to stop Izze biting and drawing blood when she was a puppy LOL. 

But the good thing is they learn, its also ok to let the puppy know that hurts! with mine I "yelp" (I usually say in a raised voice "OUCH that hurts!" and I stamp my feet, that was enough to deter Lincoln, but he really isnt that bad of a biter, though.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

cvgordy said:


> I appreciate you sharing the story and we fully understand.
> 
> I feel like people have jumped to conclusions rather than talking as adults here... I guess it was my mistake mentioning this on a dog-lovers website. We've been trying every suggestion and EVERYONE has a different opinion, different experience, and different method of doing things. We were out of ideas to the point where the dog could only be locked in his crate 24/7 aside from being let out to go to bathroom, most of which he would do IN his crate.


It happens very frequently on this forum. When someone is backed into a corner, and has five different people telling them not to hit their dog, they say we're being childish and not letting them have their opinion. The thing is though, we see this all the time. I've only been on this forum about 6 months, and I have seen it ALL THE TIME. So what we are saying does not come from a place of childishness, it comes from a place of experience. It also comes from frustration, because so many people get up on their high horse, dig their heels in, and just plain don't listen. 



> You might say "well, don't put him in a crate then" well that's not a solution because he has to be somewhere. A confined play area resulted him him trying to jump, claw, bite his way out. An open play area (2nd floor of our town-home) resulted in him trying to attack/bite/chew anything he could get his mouth on...
> 
> If you want a human example, my Girlfriends sister's child would bite people sometimes. One of the times she bit her grandpa and he bit her back... She has never bit another person since... She had to be taught that biting hurt people and know what it felt like. He didn't beat or abuse her, he showed her what it was like. "Golden rule, treat others how you want to be treated"


Dogs are not children. Understand that they do not have those kind of reasoning skills. The smartest dogs in the world only have about a 3 year olds intelligence. And that's pushing it. 

If he's trying to jump his way out of his play area, just make sure he can't. He will stop eventually. It'll take some time, but he'll stop. 



> Well, when it comes to dogs, we're not going to bite him...
> 
> Maybe we're stupid people? I have a masters in Electrical Engineering, my GF has a masters as well and she's raised 2 human babies part-time (because she had family members that were incompetent parents)... And before you ask, these are not family members we go to for advice on anything.


Do you have a masters degree in animal conditioning and/or behavior? That's really the only degree that would be helpful in this situation. I have zero degrees to my names, and a very well behaved puppy. You may be very intelligent. But that intelligence isn't going to do jack squat if you don't have the intelligence (and humility) to listen to the people that have experience with your EXACT situation ten times over. They know what to do to solve your problem in a way that will be healthy for both you and your puppy. 



> However, it's very frustrating to read online things like:
> 
> "If your dog goes to bathroom in his Crate its the owners fault..." - Bullsh*t
> "If your dog bites you, just walk away and he will learn..." - Bullsh*t
> ...


Actually, yes. Anything your adult dog is doing that you don't like is completely your fault. Puppies are a different story. It's not your fault. But you have to understand that the bad things they do are also not their fault. They don't understand what is going on, so they just do what some naturally to them. 

Don't want a puppy to bite you while you're playing? Stop playing with him when he bites you. That way, he learns to very consciously decide not to bite you if he wants to keep playing. And he always wants to keep playing. It is literally as simple as that. 

My puppy was a terrible biter. Horrible. For the first month I had him, I cried constantly, I was so frustrated. I still have deep scars on my ankles months later. But I stayed consistent. I followed the advice these nice people took the time to give me, and within a month, it was gone. No hitting, no yelling. Nothing. I literally just left the room or stopped playing with him him anytime he bit me. I also rewarded him any time he licked me. Would hitting him have been faster? You betcha. But it also would have hurt the relationship I have with him. So I did it the hard way. The way that took time. And I would have done it ten times over. Because he is happy. He trusts me more than anything in the world. He doesn't cringe away from hands, and he has never been scared of a human in his life, because a human has never caused him pain. And he is an angel with beautiful bite inhibition. 



> Nowhere did we read anything useful about how to teach your dog what "NO" means. Everything talks about rewarding positive behavior, which is what we do. But nothing talks about how to correct negative behavior. We can wait 3-6 months of potty training for him to learn. We cannot have flesh torn from our skin for 6 months and hope he learns what "no" means or to stop doing it...


My puppy knows what no means. He knows "no" , he knows "nope" , "oops", "uh-uh", and "ah!" If I say any of those, he stop in his tracks and looks at me, because he knows he's done something wrong. It's called negative punishment, and it's part of positive reinforcement. It means that when he does something wrong, he doesn't get the good things. So in our positive training sessions, I said no or nope, and that meant he did something wrong and didn't get a treat. If he offered a behavior that was not what I asked, I said nope, withheld a treat, and he tried something else. So that meant that when he did something wrong, it was just as much of a training moment as when he did something right. I was teaching him the way I communicate. 

You can absolutely teach a dog what no means through positive reinforcement.


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## kmac99 (Jul 18, 2014)

I can understand the frustration with a crying puppy. We got ours from a shelter (not sure if that matters with create training or not). We started with her in the kitchen in her crate and I was up most of the night because of it. Not good since when I don't sleep I get very sick (some I ways can cause me to get really sick to where I med prescription meds). We found that once we put the crate in the bedroom she was so much better in just 1 or 2 days. 
At once point we put it in the kitchen again for during the day only since at night she had free room of the bedroom and was fine. She started to destroy the crate, kitchen door frame if just left in the kitchen. So for some reason she just didn't like the kitchen area ????

She has to be crated during the day because if not she gets into everything, we did try. 

One thing I learned from my baby is that it's all trial and error. We are having problems digging and sorry I will not do as some of the advisors say. Just doesn't work for us. You need to pick and chose what works for you. 

You may also look into training classes to help with getting her to listen better to you. We are lucky with ours and she does listen. She nips, puppy still, and also because of how we play with her. I get it. Hard to tell her no at one time and them play ruff another time. 

My advise is to build a good relationship with you puppy. If he seems unruly then maybe professional training maybe what you need, especially if you not sure how to do it yourself. And then you get some dog who just will not listen. We had a dog that no matter what would go in the house. And no it's not because of the potty training, or to long alone at home. This dog was just mental. Sorry when the dog is outside with you for over an hour and then goes in the house to take a dump... And yes we didn't find out later the dog had neurological problems.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

cvgordy said:


> What I think people fail to understand here is that if this 40lb puppy is hurting us already and refuses to listen and eventually causes my Girlfriend to be afraid of him, we won't be able to keep him... At that point he will be in a shelter somewhere and likely end up being killed as he'll probably be aggressive towards all humans... We are a good home for this guy and he just need to learn not to harm humans, something that I believe we can teach him now that he understands "No"
> 
> We're on these forums to get advice and information from people... If you think that a 40lb puppy that rips flesh from his owners is "OK" behavior and something we just have to live with... then I don't know what to say.


A dog that doesn't learn to control his puppy biting is not aggressive. He is playing. The only way you're going to make that dog aggressive to humans is if you continue to hit him. 

BUT if you actually think he's being aggressive, legitimately, then you need to contact a behaviorist. Asap. But before you do that, I would look at him and do a little research on dog body language. You'll probably learn that he's not being aggressive at all.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

If you can't control a giant breed dog without hitting it with a 2x4 then don't get a giant breed dog. Rehome your puppy before YOU cause him to develop aggression. That's my advice to you.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shell said:


> The reason there is little mentioned of how to teach a dog what NO means is that it doesn't really mean much of anything. People use NO to ask a dog to do a zillion different things, we humans think it is one thing-- as in, stop doing whatever you're doing-- but to a dog, it can mean only stop one action or maybe one part of an action and doesn't tell the dog what he should be doing instead.
> 
> Much better to train specific commands like Leave It, Drop It, Wait, etc.
> 
> ...


Yep and if you force them to eliminate where they sleep, they will eventually desensitize them to it and they will do it more often.

I use "no" as an interrupter so I can insert another command (usually come) my dogs always default come when told no lol


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## cvgordy (Dec 23, 2014)

"Force" to eliminate where they sleep isn't something we can control prior to adopting him. We also take him out right before bed, no food/drink, and all but maybe 2 or 3 nights he's able to hold it all night without accidents. When the puppy goes in the crate immediately after having gone outside, to us, it shows a sign of either training/conditioning or misbehaving. He will go pee outside, a good amount, get his treat and praise, and then occasionally (less often lately) go a tiny bit the second we put him in crate.

I've setup his play around near my standing desk in such a way that I can stand and work while he's out near me. He sometimes lays right on my feed or against me and chews on his toys like a good boy.

It was likely my mistake for sharing our frustrations and possible solution with people here. We were hoping for "oh, well if you have to do that, be careful and do this... and this.. and make sure not to do this or it could go very badly in the end..."

Instead we got "I wish I knew where you lived so we could report you!" - Obviously this type of comment is not helpful to us or the dog.

I think the biggest issue my Girlfriend and I have is that ALL of the suggestions (more or less) we've received here are not working. When you compare a bunch of suggestions and "hate" on this forum to 9 other dogs (owned by 5 separate people) that suggested we try something which worked immediately, I hope you can see why we have issues. We have friends who never resorted to spanking, their dogs learned from other dogs or simply didn't do the things our dog does. One friend has 5 dogs, 3 of them were pretty good, one is a male English Mastiff and they had to "show him whose boss" right from the beginning before he would listen. They also have a golden that needed a little spanking early on. All of their dogs, and all of the dogs for any of the friends we've spoken to are wonderful. They're friendly to everyone, they love to be around people, other dogs, play, sleep, etc, and they all listen (mostly).

We're sorry if people don't agree with spanking (even if it only takes 3x), however we came here to get suggestions and they weren't working. We adopted this puppy to give him a good home. It's very likely that NO ONE else would. Where we live, large dogs are difficult to have and a vast majority of people have the little shit toy dogs (sorry, I dislike them very much). The chances of this puppy finding a home were pretty slim.

If you want an idea how dedicated we are to this guy... We live in a town home currently, not the greatest setup for him... We pushed our home purchase forward a full 2 years because of him. We're spending $350,000 to ensure this guy has the best place to grow up we can provide him...


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

cvgordy said:


> "Force" to eliminate where they sleep isn't something we can control prior to adopting him. We also take him out right before bed, no food/drink, and all but maybe 2 or 3 nights he's able to hold it all night without accidents. When the puppy goes in the crate immediately after having gone outside, to us, it shows a sign of either training/conditioning or misbehaving. He will go pee outside, a good amount, get his treat and praise, and then occasionally (less often lately) go a tiny bit the second we put him in crate.
> 
> I've setup his play around near my standing desk in such a way that I can stand and work while he's out near me. He sometimes lays right on my feed or against me and chews on his toys like a good boy.
> 
> ...


Lol. We gave you quite a few suggestions. Sure, there was some emotional response mixed in, but that happens around here. To be fair, you did say that you hit your dog with a piece of wood without any clarification. 

Have fun in your "I know better than everyone else" bubble. I honestly do hope your dog turns out okay.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Here's the thing about how none of the suggestions frequently mentioned here "not working"- they take time and consistency. You haven't had the puppy long enough to have truly given that time and consistency especially if you've been changing methods trying to find one that works.

I can tell that you are dedicated and want to do what's best because you are making the effort to find out what is best for him. That's the thing to me though, it isn't that resorting to spanking a couple time is likely to mess your dog up for life or anything, its that we are warning you to be careful of taking the advice of someone who bases their actions on outdated physical punishment training which most certainly CAN backfire and warning you against short cuts. 

Positive reinforcement training works and it can be used for more subtle and specific training or training to a higher level of precesion than punishment. (I'm not getting into the whole 4 quadrants of conditioning here, although its worth learning more terms and reading more training books to get details). Resorting to a physical punishment based method as a shortcut for dealing with a normal puppy behavior can be setting you down a bad path for the next training frustration that you get tempted to shortcut and so on. The stronger the dog gets and the more I dependant minded he gets as a teen and adult, the "heavier" the punishment would need to be to take that shortcut and it risks heavier fallout too.
Far better to take the extra time and consistency needed to train with a method that doesn't risk fallout or negative escalation.

I understand your frustration, really. My first foster Luna was a wild nipping nutcase that when I first met her, she got out of the car and leapt straight up 5 feet in the air to try to bite my nose. She was a ~50 lbs adult dog with springs for legs. But she was friendly at least and not fearful. Another foster was initially very fear aggressive to everyone but me and she too had little pirhana teeth. The fear aggression though was soooo much harder to work with than the nutty cheerfulness of the other dog so while i could give other examples of dogs i have met, that comparison alone is enough to illustrate to me a good reason to avoid methods that have a greater chance of producing fear.

The thing is that some dogs can be smacked and punishment and they take it in stride, other dogs will become a mental mess and most dogs somewhere in between but the risk is that you don't know where on that scale your dog will fall until the damage is done.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Jumping in here not to jump down your throat, but to tell it to you straight.



cvgordy said:


> We were hoping for "oh, well if you have to do that, be careful and do this... and this.. and make sure not to do this or it could go very badly in the end..."


Well if you have to hit your dog, then be _aware_ that the likelihood of the dog being a little more skittish and reactive is going to be higher. I also know plenty of dogs that have been raised heavy-handed. Most of them are like 'any other dog,' friendly and close to their families. But the thing about punishment is it eliminates the behavior through fear but doesn't eliminate the root of the behavior. If you have a dog that wants to bite, hitting it will probably solve that immediately. Heck, you might not even need to think about it for the rest of your life and your dog might be a fine dog in all situations for the remainder of its life. But there is also the chance that the suppressed urge to react might suddenly crop up at some point in life. A dog gets excited at another dog and 'accidentally' bites the child next to it... For that reason, I am a fan of letting dogs show their true colors. If they like to bite, let them bit *appropriate things*. If they growl, let them growl so the owners know what frustrates them and can avoid testy situations turning into bite situations.

The thing about puppies is they soak things in like a sponge. And they have fear periods. I would never suggest hitting a dog ever. But if a person absolutely had to resort to those means the outcome would at least be more predictable on an adult dog. With a puppy, you just never know how that ONE memory will manifest itself as it grows. 

I have a number of anecdotes from working with dogs living in low income situations... Most are VERY well loved but admittedly raised with heavy handed owners. Would I take those dogs away? No. But there are realities that need to be accepted. I will share two stories of situations that are unfortunately not uncommon:

-Man yells/hits the dogs whenever it goes off property/out of bounds, but expects his dogs (all rotties and rott mixes) to stay by him offleash. Passing by, his household is the picture of obedience and coexistence. They truly are content to relax on the front porch and all the dogs are friendly when you go up to them, and the owner loves and is proud of his dogs. But one day, one dog reacted at a child (running by? riding a bike?) and bit that child. That dog was put to sleep. This happened because of poor management (dogs let loose on property) and also the dogs being taught DON'T REACT EVER OR YOU WILL BE PUNISHED, instead of teaching an appropriate response to fast moving people/objects. There are plenty of children running around all the time in that neighborhood. It is unfortunate that one child, one day, was hurt. But my whole point is, when you suppress a reaction through fear, the CHANCE of it rearing its head without warning, and in extreme ways, becomes higher.

-Man yells/hits dogs whenever they fight with each other. These are two dog aggressive pitbulls. If you visit their house, the dogs are ALL OVER each other trying to get your attention. They sleep together, are left unattended together, play together... The punishment worked because the dogs learned that reacting toward each other meant a strong correction. Their house was the picture of two happy dogs coexisting. One day, one dog killed the other. I want to reiterate: When you suppress a reaction through fear, the CHANCE of it rearing its head without warning, and in extreme ways, becomes higher.

Two anecdotes. Not uncommon. And I am only speaking for my area and my work experience. But having part of my job be the delivery of medication and other drugs to fix the aftermath of such situations (when they can be fixed), you hear all the time: "(insert the dog's name here) is so sweet! I can't believe this happened/I have no idea why he did that!" And when you watch how they correct their dogs and in what situations... It is very clear. 



cvgordy said:


> Where we live, large dogs are difficult to have and a vast majority of people have the little shit toy dogs (sorry, I dislike them very much).


I think it's highly disrespectful to call something "shit" just because YOU dislike them. You could have said "a vast majority of people have little toy dogs, and I dislike them." But your choice of words reflects the kind of person you are.


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## cvgordy (Dec 23, 2014)

You're absolutely right about my choice of words and I aplogize. I should push my distate or hatred on the owners rather than the type of animal. The animals themselves are not the problem...

SoCal, especially our area, is full of Parents (both of dogs and children) with no desire or ability to raise their kids properly (dogs and humans). The "little shit dogs" I refer to are the ones that yap and bark uncontrollably while locked outside on balcony's, left in cars, or dragged around on leashes to go potty.

There are uncontrolled larger dogs, but in our experience, they are few and far between. It is our "opinion" that owners of these little dogs in general should probably have cats instead as they don't bark, don't require training, can be left alone for long periods of time, and don't typically bother people around them.

I apologize for showing this distaste for bad owners by saying negative things about the animals.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

I really like this thread. Normally when we start a conversation about punishment or dominance based training it just ends up with us talking about how it will hurt your relationship with the dog, or it will cause the dog to be fearful. 

I don't think we often talk about the harms of suppressing a dogs behaviour.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*



> I don't think we often talk about the harms of suppressing a dogs behaviour.


True, and it definitely can. 
As an example, a few years ago I met a dog aggressive bully breed that had been sent for training with a trainer that employed positive punishment heavily. The "trainer" used an ecollar to fix the dog aggression (note, no human aggression had been shown) and showed off how supposedly calm this dog was around other dogs and how he was cured of his dog aggression since he wasn't showing ANY emotion towards other dogs around him......
Well, the owner bought that line of thinking and it wasn't that long after but the dog broke a tie-out and went after a small dog and in the process of separating the dogs, he accidentally bit a human. He was PTS. Had the owner understood that the dog remained dog aggressive and was only so shut down from being shocked all the time, different management strategies could have been used and likely the dog would never have had the chance to harm another dog or by extension, a human.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> We're spending $350,000 to ensure this guy has the best place to grow up we can provide him...


 Read the 2 books I recommended. They only cost about $35 total. That's .0001 % of the cost of the house you're planning to buy.

Those books are something that will effect MEANINGFUL change in your line of thinking. Which will, in turn, bring about meaningful change in your dog's behavior. 

You keep looking for positive solutions, and you say you're not receiving any? Buy the books. Read the books.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

I really like _Positive Perspectives_ by Pat Miller too. Pretty much the same stuff as _the Power of Positive Dog Training_ but more. And it goes into specifics much more often.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

As someone who does have an 150lbs adult dog who was 30lbs at 10 weeks old and a current puppy who's 25lbs at 12 weeks.

I can say that, although tempted at times, I have never had to resort to "spanking" my dogs with a 2x4 and never will.

Why?

Because when done correctly positive reinforcement and training goes to the root or the behavior and fixes that instead of just patching it up and hiding the root cause, which is what punishment methods do. 

I'd rather have stable and happy 150lbs dogs than frustrated and scared 150lbs dogs that are ready to lash out.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

I know you are getting a lot of feedback here, OP. I know it can be frustrating to hear what sound like pat answers. "Oh, it's eeeeeasy, just give the dog a treat and everything will be perfect!" That's not really what people mean, but positive training advice can sound like that. I dismissed it for years because I thought it was all hippy bull****. So, I feel like I know where you are coming from.

When I first got my dog, I used physical punishment. I didn't BEAT him, but I did use physical intimidation. Lots of blocking, lots of manhandling and "NO!"s accompanied by mild swats. And it worked.

Until the puppy grew up. Once he hit adolescence, he was a nightmare. I was the only one who could control him, and doing so required constant attention. I couldn't relax for a nanosecond or he would try something. I can't know for sure if positive training would have prevented those problems, but I do know that positive training fixed them. 

Do those early mistakes make me a bad person? I don't think so. I did what I thought was the right thing at the time. I was just wrong. Am I stupid? The diplomas on my wall say no (or at least that I'm hiding my stupidity well!). I was just uneducated. At least in the area of animal behavior. And I will tell you something REALLY embarrassing: I majored in Biology. So you'd think I would have known better. But ethology was not an elective offered at my school. That's how specialized this knowledge is.

Being a bad/stupid person and making a mistake are two very different things.

I would urge you to take a look at the evidence, as I have done. Look at the research that has been done on animal behavior, particularly on the domestic dog. If you have a background in engineering, I think you will take to this like a duck to water. I recommended this stuff to a mechanic I know and he was all over it. He got it instinctively because it's a lot like working on a machine. The principles of shaping and conditioning are quite elegant. It has always reminded me of programming because it's a series of if-then statements. If this behavior, then this consequence.

All the advice in the world about this specific behavior will not be as helpful to you as a true understanding of how animals work. You are smart enough to skip the internet groupthink stuff and just pick up a book. It will explain everything and your life will be ten times easier. The one that turned me around was _Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson. It lays out the general principles very logically and succinctly but it also includes specific protocols for selected behaviors. On the downside, it's not organized very well, has no index and contains some of that "high horse" attitude you were talking about. However, in my case, it was something I needed to hear. And what made me respect her viewpoint was that she emphasized that dogs are not fur-covered humans. They are DIFFERENT from us, and that's not a bad thing. In fact, it's kind of what we love about them. I think she uses the phrase "innocently selfish" or something like that. A lot of the attitudes and emotions (even things like love) that we attribute to dogs are in all likelihood completely false. This book quickly blows through the biggest misconceptions and makes the animal's behavior explicable and, more importantly, malleable.

Another one I'd recommend is _Dog Sense_ by John Bradshaw. It doesn't have much practical advice, but it has some really interesting information about big questions, like whether dogs feel guilt (no) or jealousy (maybe). The best part is that he describes the methodology of some of the studies and includes a complete bibliography of all the research he cites.

I know this is getting long, but the other thing I wanted to address was this idea that because something works in the short term, and because you've observed other people using it without repercussions, it must be effective and safe. As we say in skeptic circles, "the plural of anecdotes is NOT data." I've smoked cigars and I don't have cancer, but that doesn't mean cigars are healthy. By the same token, the "old school" type of training was used for centuries because it worked - and because dogs with the wrong temperment were culled. But since people started really researching this, they've found that this type of training is not as effective in the long run. Do a search for studies about the relative values of positive reinforcement versus positive punishment. Punishment can work, sure, but it's not as effective for most of the behaviors we want dogs to learn. Look at the research on these aggressive training methods. When you are aggressive toward a dog, you teach the dog that interacting with humans is about who has the biggest stick. The second that dog thinks HE has the biggest stick, he will just take what he wants. On the other hand, a dog who is trained with reinforcement learns that interacting with humans is about figuring what HE can do to make the human dispense a cookie. He learns that his actions affect the world around him and he will try different behaviors until he figures out which one gets him what he wants. The latter type of animal is much more desirable, no matter what you are using it for. The best gift you can give to an animal is self-restraint. An animal that can control its own impulses will have a much better life than one that simply does whatever comes into his fool head.

Why do dogs who are struck as puppies often grow up to be sweet-tempered adults? Because dogs, in general, are better people than people. A lot of dogs will just TAKE it. Because it's not in their nature to fight back. We have genetically programmed them to look to human beings for protection and direction. A lot of them will keep doing that, even after they've been beaten, used as bait for fighting dogs, starved, neglected, strangled and abandoned. Look up the Michael Vick dogs. Or any other story of abused dogs who showed no signs of aggression. Abuse does not ALWAYS lead to aggression. But with the wrong dog...

You are not abusing your dog. But what you are doing is riskier than the alternatives. I implore you to give positive training another shot. Find out what it's all about. Read about how it works. Once you have the general principles, these specific pieces of advice you are getting from the internet will make more sense. You'll understand WHY they are expected to work. And you'll be able to modify them to fit your situation. I can't really think of a single training challenge I had with my dog that was fixed using a "canned" protocol. There was always something I had to tweak because of the dog's personality or because of where we live, etc. But because I understood how the training works, I could make the necessary modifications. Sometimes these things just take time. Sometimes they take timing. Sometimes it may look like the dog wants one thing when in fact he wants something else. Sometimes the dog may actually ENJOY the "punishment" you apply. There are lots of reasons why these things might not work, but I wasn't able to figure them out until I updated the rudimentary understanding of operant conditioning I received in high school. I really hope you'll consider doing the same.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

The above is a good post.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

I'm not a big mushy hippy or anything, but hitting a dog is frankly stupid and counterproductive. It teaches the dog to associate the human hand and moving/reaching toward them with aversion and pain. The long term negative possible results far outweigh the short-term positive gains with this type of correction. 

Speaking as the owner of a giant breed dog, I realized early on that physically controlling the dog is not a realistic option. Any physical control I think I have of the dog is illusory. The dog must be made to _want_ to please and obey. Positive reward methods are effective for this. I'm not inherently opposed to corrections, particularly with hard-headed dogs, but they must be chosen and applied carefully and sparingly to avoid unintended bad outcomes. Positive rewards OTOH are pretty idiot-proof.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*



parus said:


> I'm not a big mushy hippy or anything, but hitting a dog is frankly stupid and counterproductive. It teaches the dog to associate the human hand and moving/reaching toward them with aversion and pain. The long term negative possible results far outweigh the short-term positive gains with this type of correction.


I'm not an expert on home-baked punishment methods, and I don't know the op's motives in particular, but I assume that's the whole idea to using a plank rather than the hand directly. So that, if any fallout does occur, the dog merely becomes 'plank-shy'. Umm .. yeah, *as if* the dog can't connect the dots.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*



petpeeve said:


> I'm not an expert on home-baked punishment methods, and I don't know the op's motives in particular, but I assume that's the whole idea to using a plank rather than the hand directly. So that, if any fallout does occur, the dog merely becomes 'plank-shy'. Umm .. yeah, *as if* the dog can't connect the dots.


Good gravy. I hope that wasn't the logic, because it's asinine.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*

That was a really well written and informative post, Luxorien. I think you touched in some of the misconceptions of training very nicely.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

*Re: Puppy drawing blood, barking, cannot play.*



parus said:


> Speaking as the owner of a giant breed dog, I realized early on that physically controlling the dog is not a realistic option. Any physical control I think I have of the dog is illusory. The dog must be made to _want_ to please and obey. Positive reward methods are effective for this. I'm not inherently opposed to corrections, particularly with hard-headed dogs, but they must be chosen and applied carefully and sparingly to avoid unintended bad outcomes. Positive rewards OTOH are pretty idiot-proof.


Very well put.

@Shell & Canyx: Ty! There's just a lot of things I wish I'd known when I first got this dog. But luckily he's a cuddly little trooper.


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