# advice for bath?



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

we have to give iorek a bath since my in-laws are coming and they are not used to big doggies so i want to make him as cute as possible to win them over!  (they are going to love him, i just don't want him smelly )

so, my question is, what is the first step? right now iorek is very dirty and smelly! i don't like to bathe him too often since he scratches enough as it is. he goes to daycare regularly so he is covered in spit and dirt. he went a few days lately in the rain so he is now a lovely shade of grey-brown. 

what do i do first? i try to brush him as often as i can but he is not a fan so i haven't done it as much as i should lately. i actually rake him, not brush him since the brushing seems to fluff the fur nicely out over any mats he may have. should i brush him first or should i wash him first and then brush him? 

i always condition iorek after we wash him so maybe it is better to brush him after? when i condition him i try to rake the conditioner through his fur. 

the way i usually do it is wash, condition, dry (on his own, he hates dryers), and then rake. well, usually i rake him gently while he is drying - like the next day after the bath - to help separate the fur and dry it better. but, today he is DIRTY and smelly and definitely needs to be brushed. i have read conflicting things, brush before a bath and don't brush before a bath. i don't think he really has any real mats, just some messy looking spots and tangles.

sorry this is so rambling and confused!

please help


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Brush him first. To help get out the tangles you can take some of your conditioner and mix it with water in a spray bottle and mist it over his fur. It will also help prevent damage. Waiting until after the bath to brush can make any tangles and mats he has worse since they will tighten up when they get wet. Also you might be able to get him REALLY nice and fluffy if you take a blow dryer to him instead of letting him air dry. Just make sure to put it on the 'cool' setting and have it blow as fast as it can.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

thank you 

that is what i was thinking, about mats tightening when they get wet, but i just wanted to make sure.

that is a good idea about the conditioner and water! i never thought of that. i did use a silicone spray (for people's hair) when his tail was pretty tangled but i like the idea of the conditioner much better. i will try that for sure


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## Raggs (Jan 10, 2007)

cornstarch helps get out mats nicely.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

You're doing good in making sure that you use Conditioner and brushing him. Isn't iorek a double coated dog? If so then the best grooming comb would be one that looks like this Comb

I believe that it's good to brush before and after baths, so far it makes my dog look great. The brushing before the bath is to get loose fur out so that you avoid tangles, and afterwards is to stimulate the oil glands to reduce irritation caused by the removal of the skin's oils. 

If your pooch gets itchy often, I would suggest you change shampoos, most likely something that is softer on the skin such as oatmeal, aloe, or chammomile shampoos. Adding fish oils to your dog's diet might reduce itching too.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I've been using some of my daughters detangler spray on the dogs and I'm really pleased with it. I spritz with the detangler, brush, then bathe them with a shed control shampoo, then put some conditioner in and brush it through while they're still in the bath...then rinse really well, let them dry, then brush again. I don't do this whole routine very often though...for routine maintenance I just spritz and brush.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

thanks guys! 

i do have a comb like that, that is what i use since any brush will just fluff any fur out over the tangles.

i also bought a thing that is for getting mats out of long furred dogs. i think that it actually cuts the fur a little so i will just use it once to see how it works. i know to start on the outside of the fur and work in as the mat comes out.

i usually do rake him when i put the conditioner on him in the bath and then rinse, but this time we were in a super rush so he got conditioned and then rinsed right away. 

as for the itching...i tried everything i could think of! fish oil - but he gets more omegas from his 1 lb of fresh atlantic mackerel every week than he did from the oil. we thought maybe a zinc deficiency, but he doesn't really have the other symptoms. different shampoo - we got earth bath oatmeal shampoo but we only give him a bath every few months so i don't know really if that could be it. i just don't know! and there is no fleas so i don't know :S

thanks for all the advice! i really appreciate it and i will check it all out 

oh, iorek is a double coated dog. he is a sammy and he has really REALLY long fur!


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

ioreks_mom said:


> thanks guys!
> 
> i do have a comb like that, that is what i use since any brush will just fluff any fur out over the tangles.
> 
> ...


So the itching is a main problem too? You do rinse thoroughly right? Any shampoo residue can make a dog really itchy. You might, if possible, try to go with a vet and see if he can find out what is making him itchy in case its an allergy.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

i rinse as well as i can  he doesn't get baths that often, about every 2-3 months or so. we did ask the vet and together we have crossed off so many things, we don't really know what it could be. he eats raw so the elimination diet is really easy. he was eating a lot of chicken when we first started with raw and he was really itchy, but it was also in the winter so it could have been the dry air. we cut out chicken for 2 months and that didn't help anything so we added it back and nothing changed. we will try eliminating something else but i don't know if it would help. the vet and i were thinking it was displacement for a bit but then he still scratches at daycare. if it was displacement he probably wouldn't stop playing with a bunch of dogs to scratch...i just don't know! it is frustrating.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

ioreks_mom said:


> i rinse as well as i can  he doesn't get baths that often, about every 2-3 months or so. we did ask the vet and together we have crossed off so many things, we don't really know what it could be. he eats raw so the elimination diet is really easy. he was eating a lot of chicken when we first started with raw and he was really itchy, but it was also in the winter so it could have been the dry air. we cut out chicken for 2 months and that didn't help anything so we added it back and nothing changed. we will try eliminating something else but i don't know if it would help. the vet and i were thinking it was displacement for a bit but then he still scratches at daycare. if it was displacement he probably wouldn't stop playing with a bunch of dogs to scratch...i just don't know! it is frustrating.


I know what you mean, while I may not own a Sammy I have a chow and know its hard to pinpoint exactly what is causing the itchies for the big fluffy dogs.lol. 

Have you crossed off the possibility that it could be behavioral? It would seem that you have pretty much eliminated the most common causes of itchyness which would be allergies, food and shampoo. 

Has your vet just tried giving medication for a short while for allergies (such as benedryl) to see if the itching stops, because even though you guys may have crossed out a list of things including food, you never know what air-borne allergens could be affecting your dog. I would give it a go, if the itchies are still there then I would stop worrying about allergies. 

Should it be behavioral, have you tried to increase the amount of walks you've gone on? I notice that my pooch scratches more if we skip walks for a period of time...I'm not sure, guess you could call it scratching because of boredom. 

Lastly, while many don't usually advocate bathing dogs regularly, why not try it if you are wits end. The whole mumbo-jumbo about being bad for the coat and skin is bogus if you know what you are doing (and you seem like you know your stuff!), I bathe mine 1 time every 2 weeks if necessary and coat is good as it gets.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

thanks for the advice  

i am thinking that it is probably behavioural  we are working with him on it, taking him for lots of walks, running off leash at the park, and i try to do training with him at home to keep him busy. now that we have moved to newfoundland we don't have any dog friends for him yet so that is hard on him. we actually today picked out a puppy!! he is getting a brother!! the puppy is 2 days old today. he is from an "oops" litter and i can't wait until we get him home! he is german sheppard/husky  i think that this will go a long way to helping the itchies.


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

I have a VERY strong hunch as to why you're dog is itching. 

first off, has he ever been dried with a high velocity dryer before? 

youd be shocked at how many peple come to me with doublecoated breeds, swear they bath at home and brush all the time, but the dogs is still itchy and shedding. 

the answer: i find that most of these people are bathing dogs without ever getting to the skin. the dogs undercoat has impacted so much that you cant even get to the skin without blowing the coat away. brushing simply cannot do what the dryer can. my bet, your dog has impacted undercoat. the itching would come from his skin not having any air, the undercoat pulling at his skin, dry skin, and more than likely, shampoo residue from not being able to rinse through a mat. also, if he is airdrying, then all that undercoat is probably building up mildew. honestly, with doublecoated breeds, drying them at least 50% of the way dry is very beneficial. also, people dont think abut it, but the reason groomers spot a lot of health problems is b/c of the dryer. you can see any bumps, scraps, moles, anything out of the oridinary. 

a trip to the groomers is your best bet at getting it right. make sure to question the groomers on how the de-shed. when done right, the dog is done completely by hand with no cage dryers. at the end, your dog should have one layer of hair and be shedding very little. 

also, someone said you shouldnt bath a dog with matts. not completely true, if you bath and condition a dog with matts, and know how to dry and brush correctly, then washing before brushing is easier. also drying matts halpes loosen them and get them away from the skin. 

however, this is why there are pet grooming professionals. you would be amazed what a groomer can do that dog owners just dont even think about.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

thank you for your advice. i don't think that being professionally groomed is the answer for iorek. he is very afraid of strangers, baths, and hv dryers. i used to take him to a you-groom to try to get him used to the dryer but he still doesn't like them. also, since he has shed out his winter coat i brushed him A LOT! with a rake and i split his coat apart and get right into the skin. there are 2 areas that he doesn't like for me to brush so the fur is not all out in those areas, behind his head and right at the base of his tail. my husband and i are going to work on getting those out in the next few days. since we just moved and are still unpacking the brushing has fallen off a little but we are getting right back at it. i can put the rake through all of his fur except for those 2 areas. i am positive that there is no mats like you were describing.

i am pretty sure that it is behavioural. that makes me really sad. we are upping the walking and time outside and the training and i hope that will hold him over until we can get him a puppy - well, the puppy is for my husband and i but we tell him it is his puppy  (i know, i know...we are silly!)


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

Impacted coat? Hmm I agree that this is most likely not the problem. Usually this happens when people neglect to brush their dogs (not neglect them to dry at high velocity), and ioreks_mom seems to be doing a rather good job at brushing. 

Just a little suggestion though, since Samoyeds are sled-type dogs, he might find pulling a wagon around the house (to help you with the chores) very stimulating. For instance you can have him pull around the laundry or dried leaves if you are cleaning up (nothing TOO heavy). Its just a thought I wanted to throw out there.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

that is so funny, we were just talking about that today! we were saying that we would get a little red wagon and let him drag things around. we were joking that we would advertise wagon rides for children with the puppy instead of a pony rides  he REALLY needs a job. we will look into getting a wagon. i think that they need a special harness and stuff for that, so i will have to look into all of it. the breeder that we got iorek from actually used a few of her dogs for pulling this giant cart that they had. the rest of them she showed. 

i guess i have a bit of research to do!


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> Impacted coat? Hmm I agree that this is most likely not the problem. Usually this happens when people neglect to brush their dogs (not neglect them to dry at high velocity), and ioreks_mom seems to be doing a rather good job at brushing.


Not necessarily the case. Impacted coat can still be an issue when an owner is brushing and combing. When a doublecoated breed is bathed and not properly combed out, that undercoat left in there gets tighter and more packed. Over time, it can feel like you are at the skin, when in fact, its just a layer of packed coat. While I can't say this is the case in this particular question, I certainly think there could be areas that are in doubt. The OP admits that she cannot properly brush certain areas on the dog. Sammy coats are extremely thick and soft and its not an easy task to properly brush and comb one out, especially without professional tools and equipment.


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

thanks gracco, i was just about to post the same thing. 

i just groomed a samoyed a week ago. he hadnt been professionally groomed in 3 months, and the weather went from cool over 95 degrees very quickly this summer, so he was blowing out his coat, bad. the owners claim they brush him at least every 2 days, but that they (like you) cant get every part of him (this dog is a bit difficult around his stomach and rear). i worked on that dog for 3 hours. i spent about 30 minutes blow drying him before i could even bath him b/c you could not see skin on any part of him, just dead dirty hair. underneath all that hair was dry itchy skin. this is a dog who does not like the dryer too much, but loved it this time b/c of how good it feels on itchy skin. 

now this dog had been done only 3 months ago (by me, so i know he was completely blown out then). i cant imagine how much worse it would have been had the owners waited longer, let alone never having it done. 

so it is possible for itchyness to be related to impacted undercoat. im not trying to say you arent brushing enough, just that brushing is not very effective when it comes to impacted undercoat (especially on a coat as thick as a samoyeds). there are many things a professional groomer can do (including desensitizing the dog to a dryer) that you would never even think of. it is something you may want to just try, considering you arent completely sure what the problem is.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

Graco22 said:


> Not necessarily the case. Impacted coat can still be an issue when an owner is brushing and combing. When a doublecoated breed is bathed and not properly combed out, that undercoat left in there gets tighter and more packed. Over time, it can feel like you are at the skin, when in fact, its just a layer of packed coat. While I can't say this is the case in this particular question, I certainly think there could be areas that are in doubt. The OP admits that she cannot properly brush certain areas on the dog. Sammy coats are extremely thick and soft and its not an easy task to properly brush and comb one out, especially without professional tools and equipment.


I stand by my original statement, you said it yourself, the impacted hair is still due to a lack of brushing _after_ the bath 

I OWN a very fluffy, doublecoated dog and know how a coat can get when neglected (his previous owners didn't brush him), but I also know that with constant grooming, especially during shedding seasons, the coat doesn't get impacted even if you don't blow dry. Proper tools are a must of course, and I personally use a 2-length comb and a slicker. 

That being said, I don't think this conversation is helping the OP because it really doesn't seem like this is her problem. And allow me to clarify that I'm not saying that impacted coat doesn't cause itchyness nor that it doesn't happen if you don't get professional help, my arguement was more towards this particular case


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

ioreks_mom said:


> that is so funny, we were just talking about that today! we were saying that we would get a little red wagon and let him drag things around. we were joking that we would advertise wagon rides for children with the puppy instead of a pony rides  he REALLY needs a job. we will look into getting a wagon. i think that they need a special harness and stuff for that, so i will have to look into all of it. the breeder that we got iorek from actually used a few of her dogs for pulling this giant cart that they had. the rest of them she showed.
> 
> i guess i have a bit of research to do!


Thats great that you guys already had thought of the idea! A harnest would definitely be a good idea Hey if you get him all set up, let us know how he is doing and post pictures


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> I stand by my original statement, you said it yourself, the impacted hair is still due to a lack of brushing _after_ the bath
> 
> I OWN a very fluffy, doublecoated dog and know how a coat can get when neglected (his previous owners didn't brush him), but I also know that with constant grooming, especially during shedding seasons, the coat doesn't get impacted even if you don't blow dry. Proper tools are a must of course, and I personally use a 2-length comb and a slicker.
> 
> That being said, I don't think this conversation is helping the OP because it really doesn't seem like this is her problem. And allow me to clarify that I'm not saying that impacted coat doesn't cause itchyness nor that it doesn't happen if you don't get professional help, my arguement was more towards this particular case


actually it should help the op, who admits to not knowing what the problem actually is. And like i said before, a lot of owners think they are brushing thoroughly when they arent. All im saying is that is worth a try. I understand you own a doublecoated breed, but i groom these dogs everyday. I hear the op's story often and many times its better after a professional does the job. And if it doesnt make the itchiness go away then thats one step closer to figuring out what the problem is


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

Purplex15 said:


> actually it should help the op, who admits to not knowing what the problem actually is. And like i said before, a lot of owners think they are brushing thoroughly when they arent. All im saying is that is worth a try. I understand you own a doublecoated breed, but i groom these dogs everyday. I hear the op's story often and many times its better after a professional does the job. And if it doesnt make the itchiness go away then thats one step closer to figuring out what the problem is


Have you been reading the posts? Ioreks_mom said she thinks she knows what her problem is, we'll know in due time


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

Exactly, THINKS.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

i appreciate the help. i am pretty sure my vet would have told me his coat was impacted when she checked him for fleas, which he doesn't have. when iorek blew his coat i was brushing him at least 45 minutes each day with a rake and i was combing out 1 inch sections at a time and combing right down to the skin. (i was a hairstylist in a previous career, and i understand that it is not the same as dog grooming but i do know how to get tangles out ) if this is not getting all the fur out then i don't know what will. i have since gotten the fur out of his bum (above his tail) area and i am working on the area behind his head. 

i am pretty darn sure i know what the problem is. it is displacement. he chews on his legs and scratches his "armpits". we are working on this problem. we are taking out to the soccer pitch 2 times a day and running him a lot. once we move into the house (we are in a small apt now until the house is ready) we will look into the harness and cart thing. plus, we are getting a puppy soon and i think that iorek will be too busy to scratch or chew anymore after that!

i would love to get iorek professionally groomed but, unfortunately, with his issues with strangers, i don't want to risk it. we have come so far with him and i don't want him to go back to the way he was before. 

again, thank you for your help, but we are pretty sure we figured it out. we had the vet's help and this seems most likely, and makes me feel the worst. it may all go back to his first 4 1/2 months in a kennel, with nothing else to do but chew his legs


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## Xie (Feb 5, 2009)

I know you ruled out food allergies but have you done other allergy testing? Dogs can be allergic to many things beyond food. As I always mention, we had a dog that was allergic to cats, and living with one! They can also be allergic to grass, pollen, mold, etc... just like people. It will almost always show as itchy skin especially on the paws and front legs. It can also contribute to ear infections and anal sac issues.

If you are interested in doing allergy testing and shots ask your vet about HESKA testing. They are the only lab in the country that does it. You will need to have your vet send off a blood sample along with some history on the allergies and where you live (they test for the allergens common in your area). If it comes back with strong allergies then they can make up a set of allergy shots that you would give at home.

Best of luck with whatever you decide!


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

ioreks_mom said:


> i appreciate the help. i am pretty sure my vet would have told me his coat was impacted when she checked him for fleas, which he doesn't have. when iorek blew his coat i was brushing him at least 45 minutes each day with a rake and i was combing out 1 inch sections at a time and combing right down to the skin. (i was a hairstylist in a previous career, and i understand that it is not the same as dog grooming but i do know how to get tangles out ) if this is not getting all the fur out then i don't know what will. i have since gotten the fur out of his bum (above his tail) area and i am working on the area behind his head.
> 
> i am pretty darn sure i know what the problem is. it is displacement. he chews on his legs and scratches his "armpits". we are working on this problem. we are taking out to the soccer pitch 2 times a day and running him a lot. once we move into the house (we are in a small apt now until the house is ready) we will look into the harness and cart thing. plus, we are getting a puppy soon and i think that iorek will be too busy to scratch or chew anymore after that!
> 
> ...


Well as I said, also being a fluffy dog owner, I know what you are going through and I know that you know your dog better than anyone here does thats why I didn't persist anymore Don't feel bad and blame yourself, you are doing a great job at caring for your dog, I'm thinking that maybe a little help from another K9 Companion will do Iorek good. Best of wishes!


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

thanks guys. 

i am not sure about the HESKA testing. we live in baie verte, newfoundland, canada, population 1300...no vet! i will have to take him to corner brook, which is not a problem, but i don't know if HESKA would have the common allergins listed for our small town  i think that i will try benedryl for a few days and see how that works out. i am not sure the dose but i will contact the vet first.

thank you jr. dog expert, for the sympathies. you understand what we are going through  it is a long process but i will figure it out, i am sure! i am worried that it started as displacement and now has become habit. although, it is not his neck that he is scratching anymore, it is now his legs. we will have to see how the benedryl works and also the new "brother" may help. we are running him like nuts now, but it has been hot so we are going morning and night and for short times, and i think that it is really helping.

thank you again


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