# List of bad breeders?



## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

Is there a list of bad breeders anywhere on this site? Or, perhaps more specifically, a forum for people who have had awful experiences with breeders have shared their stories?

If not, I think it would be a wonderful resource - if only as a first step for potential puppy buyers to begin their research.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

It would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to list all the bad breeders in the world, much less just the States.


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

True enough but don't you think its a good idea to dedicate a forum where individuals could post their bad experiences with breeders around the country? I know it would have been helpful to me...maybe it would be helpful to others as well?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Add in the fact that anyone can breed a dog and we'd be listing people for the rest of our lives. It is NOT hard to pick a good breeder from a bad one if you do your research. When people buy a mixed breed they ordered from a website that has tons of different breeds listed and problems arise we can't really go out and throw them on a bad list because you're supposed to figure those things out BEFORE you buy.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Few people here can even agree what a bad breeder is.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> Few people here can even agree what a bad breeder is.


True, when talking about borderline breeders. I think most people are agreed on what is clearly bad.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Crusadedog said:


> True enough but don't you think its a good idea to dedicate a forum where individuals could post their bad experiences with breeders around the country? I know it would have been helpful to me...maybe it would be helpful to others as well?


But where do you start? And just because one person has a bad experience with a particular breeder doesn't make that breeder a "bad breeder."


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

You will never see such a list on dogforums and threads along those lines will generally be deleted.

The notion of bad breeders is highly subjective and potentially libelous.


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## KYASHI (Apr 12, 2009)

If you want to be sued go ahead and list peoples names. That is exactly what is going to happen. What you may think is bad may not actually be. Give an example of what happened to you. You may think this person is a bad breeder, but in reality is a good one. It all depends on the circumstances.


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

With all due respect to everybody who posted....

Puppy-Mill (def): facility that breeds for profit with no regard for breed standard, genetically linked defects, socialization, temperament, or the overall health and welfare of the dogs in their breeding program. Puppy Mills are illegal in some countries.

That seems like a pretty solid definition to me. However, the purpose of my original post was NOT to villify breeders, build a "wall of shame" or group ALL breeders in the same category.

That being said, there is NO questions that there are "breeders" who conduct business in such a fashion that would easily earn them the label of a bad breeder. While there is room for subjective analysis, a breeder who knowingly sells a puppy with Parvo, provides incomplete documentation regarding vaccination records then disappears once the puppy dies doesn't have the luxury of the benefit of the doubt.

As for being sued for libel once a consumer exposes such a "breeder?" Yes, that has been the sword wielded by breeders who are in the wrong in an effort to keep consumers from exposing them. However, if a consumer retains the documentation needed, i.e. evidence by way of veterinary records, etc. then the issue of libel becomes quite moot and a puppy-miller seldom has the evidence to back up their side of the argument!

I didn't do as much research as I should have and I carry the burden of being remiss. That doesn't mean that the "breeder" doesn't have their own share of responsibility in the matter. Now, why would a breeder who has NOTHING to hide mouth off threats of libel? I wouldn't expect a consumer who bought a television set then dropped it to post a negative review on the manufacturer of said appliance! 

If libel were a genuine threat (and if consumers actually KNEW what such a suit entails,) they wouldn't be discouraged from exposing puppy-mills. Let me put it another way: Are consumers who post reviews on Amazon, Ebay, MySimon, Overstock, Barnes and Nobel or any other shopping website fall under the threat of libel? No. It's called free speech! Last time I posted a review on a Norelco appliance the company's first line of defense wasn't "LIBEL!"

I merely thoght, naively as it turns out, that an individual wanting to purchase a puppy and going about doing their research would benefit from hearing what others have experienced with the same breeder. A jumping off point, as you will, to ask the right questions before proceeding. 

Should consumers do their research? Yes. However, are there puppy-mills calling themselves "breeders" who are irresponsible and disreputable? Absolutely! I was merely trying to spare anyone else the heartbreak of holding a puppy and have it die in your arms hours after you've purchased him!

Perhaps listing breeders is a bad idea but NOT because of the threat of a lawsuit. It might simply open up the floodgates, as many of you pointed out, for people to post ANY experience, irrespective of how innocuous it is, and taint that breeder's reputation. Point taken.

I guess then my message would be this: Do your research. There are PLENTY of websites who post puppy-millers (and who are not being sued, by the way) for consumers to check out.

Thanks to everyone who answered my post. I see the other side of such a venture and understand how it could affect reputable breeders. On the other hand, I hope some of you were enlightened by my perspective as well.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> If not, I think it would be a wonderful resource - if only as a first step for potential puppy buyers to begin their research.


Perhaps those potential puppy buyers would be better served by solid advice about what to look for in a good breeder. That information IS available here. 



> I see from the responses I received that I was barking up the wrong tree as to the purpose of this site and who it caters to.


This forum caters to dog lovers. A high percentage of the membership is quite passionate about canines - a fact that you would recognize if you took a little time to get acquainted before commencing your personal crusade.


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

Which of my coments did you misunderstand and lead you to believe that I am NOT a dog-lover. I've spent the better part of 30 years rescuing dogs (shelters, pounds, unwanted neighborhood pups,) what completely threw me was my experience with a "breeder." Again, I was simply trying to spare anyone the pain I experienced.

Yes, the public should be responsible for doing the research necessary to undertake purchasing a puppy, however, that isn't always enough.

I understand the negative effects that listing "bad" experiences would have on good, honest breeders by disgruntled buyers. I admitted as much after I read the responses to my post.

As far as puppy-millers are concerned? You're absolutely right! It most certainly HAS become my crusade! And after what my family and I suffered, to say nothing of the poor little animal I unwittingly purchased from a breeder who was already in the advanced stages of Parvo - it is the LEAST I can do! 

I simply didn't expect the seemingly protective nature toward breeders. Don't consumers require protection as well? 

I won't make my point ad nauseum...thank you to everyone that responded. My intentions were not ill-willed.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't think the intent of this forum is to protect breeders. Clearly, you're not familiar with this particular forum if you think that's the case.

If you make a list of bad breeders and say, "These are known bad breeders. Avoid them."

ABC breeder
XYZ breeder
Another breeder
etc.....

Then you open yourself up to libel. Those breeders can sue the pants off both you and this forum. Amazon is different because people are posting things that happened to them.

If I say ABC Breeder screwed me over, that's not libel as long as it's accurate and I detail factually what they did. I'm sorry you bought a puppy with Parvo. But just because did doesn't mean that breeder always sells puppies with Parvo.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I simply didn't expect the seemingly protective nature toward breeders.


Not so much interested in protecting breeders - especially shady ones. My job is to protect this forum.

You may believe that labeling a breeder as bad on a publicly-accessible (but privately-owned) Internet forum is equivalent to writing a bad product review for an appliance. It is not. There is, in fact, a sub-forum here for reviews of dog-related products. 

Look around the forum. Maybe even introduce yourself. Then decide if this is a place concerned with protecting breeders. As a community, we are suspicious of anyone who walks in firing both barrels without so much as a 'howdy.'


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

RonE (Moderator):

My sincere apologies. As dog-lovers, I hope you understand that it is the deep sorrow of my loss that perhaps made me come across as wanting to "fire both barrels" indiscriminately. Thank you for allowing me a second chance to make a good first impression.

I'm a private individual, in academia and have owned dogs (mostly strays, abandoned and rescued mixed-breeds) all my life. As a highschooler, I volunteered for the Humane Socieity. I learned a lot, both good and bad. For 12 yrs, I have also run a dog-sitting service which started out as a hobby by taking care of my friends' and family's pets. That led to referrals, etc. Due to the fact that I work for the government, I am fingerprinted and I am bonded. Dogs, and their well-fare, are one of my life's greatest joys.

That being said, and again, no offense intended to anyone who falls into this category, I am not a member of PETA nor am I some renegade, militant individual looking to save dogs all over the world by snapping locks on cages in the middle of the night. I am not out to destroy anyone's reputation or put anyone out of business. 

A couple of months ago, my husband and I decided to add to our family. We don't have kids - just three dogs that I've had for many years - and fortunately, a comfortable home and a spacious backyard. Throughout my life, ALL my dogs have been indoor dogs and while I may not be Cesar Milan, I know my way around our canine brethren.

Now, as to the particulars and the reason for my asking what I thought was a simple question.

I made the mistake (yes, I admit that I was remiss) to purchase a dog from a breeder I found online. I did some research and had my list of questions to ask. I spoke to the breeder on the phone several times. I researched their license number with the USDA (yes, I know...) and believed that the documentation they said I would receive with the puppy would be what would indeed be sent. It wasn't.

My puppy arrived from MO with advanced stages of Parvo, one look at him and I could tell he had been kept in deplorable conditions both at his breeder's home and perhaps, on the back of the truck that brought him to me. And even though I knew this from the time he was placed in my arms, there was NO way to was going to place him back on that truck.

Five hours later, I was at an emergency clinic due to the obvious symptoms of Parvo. It was the middle of the night and the diagnosis was conclusive. He was in dire need of immediate attention. The emergency veterinarian even documented that in his opinion, this puppy showed all the signs of being a "puppy mill" puppy. He treated him as best he could and I was at my own vet's office first thing the very next day. Same diagnosis. My puppy had a 50/50 chance of making it. I wasn't going to give up on a puppy that my vet of over ten years said still had a chance so, we hospitalized him. 

When I contacted the breeder, their affable demeanor cracked and I got a glimpse of what I was dealing with. They refunded my purchase price but only after they demanded they speak to my veterinarian. I gave them both numbers and within ten minutes, they called back to tell me that they would issue a refund because my puppy would most likely die overnight! 

A conversation with both my vets revealed that the breeder called them and INSISTED their diagnosis was incorrect, that the tests they performed were flawed and when they wouldn't change their documentation, they hung up on them. As a matter of fact, the breeder contacted my vet throughout the course of several days and when they were refused access to my vet, became enraged and cursed at the vet techs and the receptionists who took the calls.

When I showed the docs that came with my puppy, my veterinarian explained what I really had. A signed health certificate attesting that my puppy showed no signs of any deadly or communicable diseases and was fit for travel (both of my vets documented that my puppy was in the advanced stages of Parvo and that it was NOT something he picked up during his two day trip to me.) However, the same certificate mentioned the "vaccination records listed above are true and accurate." Only one problem, the cells where those vaccination records should have been listed were empty. The second document was a poorly copied, hand-made "vaccination" form. It did have the vaccines listed, when they were given but were NOT signed by the veterinarian. They also did not have the stickers that would accompany such a record with the vaccination lot# and expiration date. The breeder told me then that they gave their own shots. I understand now that this is not unusual. As my vet pointed out, though, without the rest of the information or a veterinarian's signature there was NO way of verifying if the shots had even been given.

My puppy fought for his life every single day. When the vet bill came to over $1,000 I contacted the breeder and asked them to please assist me with the expense. I didn't ask them to pay for their care - just for some assistance. I explained that I wanted to give my puppy every chance to make it and that while he fought, I was determined to give him the opportunity to do so. No response.

My puppy lost his battle with Parvo, an upper respiratory infection (complication from Parvo) and the parasites that had further compromised his immune system (again, making the Parvo even more of a threat.)

As I hope you can see, my visceral reaction to this event is well-merited. My family is heartbroken, I can only imagine what my poor little guy suffered before he got to me then, what he had to go through to survive. Now, add to this that a "breeder" introduced Parvo into my home! As a forum who is well-versed in dog matters, I'm sure you know full well the measures I had to take to ensure that my home and my other dogs were safe from this deadly disease.

My evidence was enough to get this "breeder" banned from an advertising site online. And believe me, that was NO easy task. I had to submit every piece of documentation I had before they would even allow a negative review to be posted. Meanwhile, I began to search deeper. This breeder had been in violation of USDA regulations a couple of years back. However, they had changed their business name, obtained a new license number and the preliminary inspection allowed them to continue doing business.

I also found other complaints against the same breeder under different company name. It was all beginning to come together.

For the following two weeks, the advertising site in question gave us both time to submit evidence to back up our respective claims. They had none. I have a plethora. They sided with me. The instant my negative review went up, the breeder removed themselves from the site entirely! Not the sign of a good breeder, I would think, or of one who had an isolated case of Parvo.

I called the vet they used. The breeder had already contacted him to let him know that "some" of the puppies he signed off on had Parvo and that one would most likely die. When he told them that assisting me would be the "right thing to do," he found her to be spiteful and vengeful. Then, HE SENT ME A CHECK FOR $200.00 TO HELP WITH THE EXPENSES! I don't care why he did it - I'm sure a lot of you have your suspicions and I'm not in a position to disagree. Bottom line? He tried to help and was very cooperative regarding his conversation with the breeder. It might just be that the puppies he examined were NOT the puppies the breeder shipped....

Worse, yet? The breeder blasted me and even called into question that my puppy had passed away! I had to send pictures of the styrofoam cooler they placed him in - his little body tag taped to the lid! Response? "Do not contact me any longer. I have nothing to say to you."

So, please forgive me if I came across as a firecracker. It was NOT my intent. I'll say it again...I simply believed that stories from other people (who can prove their allegations, not just talk trash) might help other potential dog-owners.

If my passion came across as misplaced, I apologize but the pain I feel is so raw and so deep that I feel it is my responsibility to do something to help others.

I read everyone's posts and I now realize the dangers (again, not legally as I am proceeding against this breeder by legal means and have been assured that I have just cause to do so - and win) of posting stories that cannot be verified and could very well endanger the reputation of responsible breeders. I was enlightened by your responses and I said as much. However, I would hope that there is room to call a breeder, such as the one I encountered, out and be made to account for their actions in a forum - not just a courtroom. Perhaps not yours, sir, and I wasn't trying to make it so. Likewise, I respect your responsibility to protect your forum.

Business owners, responsible breeders and the like have rights and I've no dispute with that. But, dog-lovers whose hearts has been broken by the loss of a beloved pet AND by the unaccountability of breeders due to their "libel lawsuit threats" should have rights as well. Far too many are scammed and far too many animals are mishandled, abused and neglected. The media coverage is enough to make that clear.

I wasn't trying to start a riot on your forum, stir up trouble or run up a hill armed with fire torches against unsuspecting breeders. I asked a question...ill-phrased perhaps, but not ill-willed. I have NO desire to disrupt your discussion forum.

I hope in this last attempt, I have explained myself, my circumstances and my experience adequately.

Once again, thank you for your patience and please accept my apologies if I came across as brusque and impolite.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I'm sorry you got taken by a bad breeder. 

HOWEVER, this just points to the importance of DOING YOUR RESEARCH and NOT assuming that 30 years of doing rescue (or owning dogs!) qualifies you to understand what makes a reputable, responsible, ethical breeder without doing any research.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Have you read about the Lady in Ontario who wrote about her bad experience with a 'breeder' on a dog forum. Called the breeders in quebec a mill and was sued. The breeders won. They were even going to go after the forum. I think they came to an agreement though that if they deleted all of this lady's threads that they wouldn't sue the forum too. She has been stuck with an unending amount of legal fees.. and it's tied up something like 4-5 years of her life.

I don't think that listing bad breeders would go over well if the breeders ever found out.


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## DanaS (Feb 24, 2010)

Never said it was a "mill", said they were a "bad breeder". I have $3,000.00 in vet bills within 2 weeks of receiving my puppy, over 40 pages of documentation and 6 vets in my corner. Sure doesn't make it a "good breeder".


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Crusadedog said:


> I made the mistake (yes, I admit that I was remiss) to purchase a dog from a breeder I found online. I did some research and had my list of questions to ask. I spoke to the breeder on the phone several times. I researched their license number with the USDA (yes, I know...) and believed that the documentation they said I would receive with the puppy would be what would indeed be sent. It wasn't
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Post trimmed to parts relevant to what I'm talking about. 



Dogstar said:


> I'm sorry you got taken by a bad breeder.
> 
> HOWEVER, this just points to the importance of DOING YOUR RESEARCH and NOT assuming that 30 years of doing rescue (or owning dogs!) qualifies you to understand what makes a reputable, responsible, ethical breeder without doing any research.


I think the OP did do her research, just not quite enough and came to the wrong conclusion based on what she had. 

The USDA number, in my opinion, should have been a tipoff. It is hard to say for certain because laws are changing, but I believe only mills are registered and inspected by the USDA. Which makes them legal, but not any less deplorable. 

To the OP, I am sorry for your loss.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Again, let me emphasize that there will be no naming of names. We simply don't have the resources to distinguish between legitimate complaints and disgruntled customers (or even competitors.) We also don't allow lists or posts about 'good' breeders.

For those who have suffered from an experience with a breeder, perhaps a court of law would be a more appropriate venue than the court of public opinion.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Crusadedog said:


> Is there a list of bad breeders anywhere on this site? Or, perhaps more specifically, a forum for people who have had awful experiences with breeders have shared their stories?
> 
> If not, I think it would be a wonderful resource - if only as a first step for potential puppy buyers to begin their research.


 
The problem with this idea is one faced often in our lawseit happy country. Posting these things could get us sued for slander as well as the person who posted them. Most breed specific forums I know of do not allow posting of bad breeders either (aka breeder bashing). We can of course give our opinions on whether a breeder is reputable if asked by a member.

Crusade dog, you need to get intouch with the State Attny general in MO, what this breeder did may be illegal and you may be able to get them prosecuted. Give all details and records of what happened, there are laws in place but nothing can be done about this if puppy buyers don't take a stand.

There are also lists out there, such as www.*ripoffreport.com* where you list the breeder and when people do a google search they WILL see the report pop up. Be sure you are factual in the report and let them know you have documentation. You may be surprised how many other such reports will be tacked onto yours.


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## KYASHI (Apr 12, 2009)

The way to crusade for your dog is to tell his story. But do not name names. It wont do you any good. If you write about your experience you are teaching soon to be new owners what they need to look out for. It happens to all of us. I have shown and bred dogs for over 38 years. I too have bought a dog in hopes that everything would be fine. Reputable breeder of many years. Champions out the wazooo. I recieved said champion show dog only to find he was terribly skinny, sick and in bad need of care. I had him for 4 months before he finally passed away from genetic heart failure. He had been suffering for years. I was heartbroken. out thousands of dollars. And my dreams of having some of the great English bloodlines introduced into mine were gone. 
I contacted the Kennel clubs in the country of origin. No help. No reply from the breeder. Even sent letters that she would have to sign for. She signed. No answer. Contacted the sire of the dog to let her know. Nothing. Feel good that you at least was able to get your money back. Help in the vet bills. Some people get nothing. No answers. No closing of the book. 
My crusade is to make sure that anyone breeding dogs has them tested for genetic defects. Is very hard to do. But I will give it my best shot. Ceaser didnt die in vain. One day his story will help. Until then I let people know what happened. I dont name names. And I move on. I am sorry you lost your babe in the manner in which you did. Unfortunately it happens everyday. Educating the public is our only defense. Teach. Speak out. But dont put yourself in harms way by naming names. It will only hurt you in the end. And yes they still could sue you. If she loses business becuase you blasted her name everywhere. Proof or not. You are liable.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Caveat Emptor!!!

A much better tactic would be to recount one's experiences with GOOD breeders!


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

RonE said:


> Again, let me emphasize that there will be no naming of names. We simply don't have the resources to distinguish between legitimate complaints and disgruntled customers (or even competitors.) We also don't allow lists or posts about 'good' breeders.
> 
> For those who have suffered from an experience with a breeder, perhaps a court of law would be a more appropriate venue than the court of public opinion.


RonE (Moderator) WHERE in my postings have I demanded that the breeder I dealt with be named? Nowhere. As a matter of fact, I ended my last post thanking everyone who responded and, as you suggested, introducing myself and explaining my circumstances in an effort to explain the zealous nature of my original post.

I don't know how else to say this - I am not looking to list breeders. In my original post I asked if such a thing was viable. Once I read the responses, yours in particular, I saw the problems of doing so AND, I apologized for coming across as firing both canons, so to speak. Yes, I understand that being a dog-lover and a dog-sitter doesn't make me an expert. I never claimed that it did. I was only trying to introduce myself (as you suggested.)

The details of my experience were only included so that the members of your forum would comprehend what had taken place. They were not meant to influence or change anyone's mind about listing breeders! 

Sir, how else can I make myself understood in your opinion? I have apologized for my brusque appearance on your forum. I detailed my experience and heartbreak so that your readers would have a better grasp of what I had endured and to demonstrate that it wasn't an empty accusation. I admitted that I was remiss, though not deserving of what I had to go through. I stated, quite clearly, that I was pursuing the matter through the court system (thank goodness this isn't Canada, the laws according to the evidence are distinctly different,) and that I'm not trying to castigate the breeder via your forum. 

The more I read from your members, the more I learn - though I learned about the USDA a tad late - and I have expressed my appreciation. Last but not least, let me express my appreciation once again to those of you who have expressed your condolences for my loss.

So, RonE (Moderator) would you please be so kind as to allow me to continue learning, mourning and pursuing my cause through the courts without scolding me any further? I think that if you read my last post once again and perhaps put your fear of a lawsuit aside (since I have made it absolutely clear that I have no desire to use your forum as a platform,) you might see things from a different perspective.

I am trying to learn, do the right thing, take measures where appropriate. I am not, in any way, shape or form, trying to "jack" your forum or cause dissent among your members.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Crusadedog, you are unable to read the post I deleted on this thread from another member adding a specific breeder name to "the list", or the thread I deleted doing the same thing.

Don't assume that every comment I make is directed specifically at you. When it is, I'll address you by name (just like I did in this post.)

By the way, this forum has an owner, but it's not me. The moderators here are volunteers and have day jobs and dogs and stuff to do.

We all got off to a bad start but your participation is welcome and your story may, in fact, help others avoid suffering similar to yours.


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> The problem with this idea is one faced often in our lawseit happy country. Posting these things could get us sued for slander as well as the person who posted them. Most breed specific forums I know of do not allow posting of bad breeders either (aka breeder bashing). We can of course give our opinions on whether a breeder is reputable if asked by a member.
> 
> Crusade dog, you need to get intouch with the State Attny general in MO, what this breeder did may be illegal and you may be able to get them prosecuted. Give all details and records of what happened, there are laws in place but nothing can be done about this if puppy buyers don't take a stand.
> 
> There are also lists out there, such as www.*ripoffreport.com* where you list the breeder and when people do a google search they WILL see the report pop up. Be sure you are factual in the report and let them know you have documentation. You may be surprised how many other such reports will be tacked onto yours.


Thank you for your advice, truly. I have already contacted the State Attorney and provided all my documentation. Taking a stand was really all I was trying to do. I appreciate your posting.



RonE said:


> Crusadedog, you are unable to read the post I deleted on this thread from another member adding a specific breeder name to "the list", or the thread I deleted doing the same thing.
> 
> Don't assume that every comment I make is directed specifically at you. When it is, I'll address you by name (just like I did in this post.)


Understood. Notice that to my nominal credit, I never listed the breeder's name. Thank you.



KYASHI said:


> The way to crusade for your dog is to tell his story. But do not name names. It wont do you any good. If you write about your experience you are teaching soon to be new owners what they need to look out for. It happens to all of us. I have shown and bred dogs for over 38 years. I too have bought a dog in hopes that everything would be fine. Reputable breeder of many years. Champions out the wazooo. I recieved said champion show dog only to find he was terribly skinny, sick and in bad need of care. I had him for 4 months before he finally passed away from genetic heart failure. He had been suffering for years. I was heartbroken. out thousands of dollars. And my dreams of having some of the great English bloodlines introduced into mine were gone.
> I contacted the Kennel clubs in the country of origin. No help. No reply from the breeder. Even sent letters that she would have to sign for. She signed. No answer. Contacted the sire of the dog to let her know. Nothing. Feel good that you at least was able to get your money back. Help in the vet bills. Some people get nothing. No answers. No closing of the book.
> My crusade is to make sure that anyone breeding dogs has them tested for genetic defects. Is very hard to do. But I will give it my best shot. Ceaser didnt die in vain. One day his story will help. Until then I let people know what happened. I dont name names. And I move on. I am sorry you lost your babe in the manner in which you did. Unfortunately it happens everyday. Educating the public is our only defense. Teach. Speak out. But dont put yourself in harms way by naming names. It will only hurt you in the end. And yes they still could sue you. If she loses business becuase you blasted her name everywhere. Proof or not. You are liable.


I admire your efforts with respect to genetic defects. I'm aware that they can be just as devastating as any disease that causes harm and pain to your loved one.

Luckily, I AM a teacher and I definitely speak out. Thank you for your words of caution. However, anybody can sue anybody. In my partifular situation (and I'm only speaking for myself,) I'm the one doing the suing and thankfully, I'm the one with the evidence that holds up. The breeder has nothing but a negative track record. I'm not afraid of the lawsuit, I've a good attorney and we have our ducks in a row. I'm not in it for the money, I'm in it so that my little one's death isn't in vain either. The outcome of legal cases CAN be made public without fear of slander.

However, you're right in saying that in all these facts I am strangely lucky. Some can't afford an attorney (mine is a family member,) don't get their money back and wait for years to get closure - if at all. I, too, am sorry for your loss and thanks again for your post.



RonE said:


> Crusadedog, you are unable to read the post I deleted on this thread from another member adding a specific breeder name to "the list", or the thread I deleted doing the same thing.
> 
> Don't assume that every comment I make is directed specifically at you. When it is, I'll address you by name (just like I did in this post.)
> 
> ...


RonE: THANK YOU! I appreciate the second chance and the advice and counsel of your members.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I would also add that my advice to you if you come across a similar situation or to anyone else who may be faced with a similar situation is to leave the dog on the transport truck. Don't take possession of the dog, then demand your money back. That way you avoid a situation similar to yours which can be a huge pain and a drain financially to boot.


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

hulkamaniac said:


> I would also add that my advice to you if you come across a similar situation or to anyone else who may be faced with a similar situation is to leave the dog on the transport truck. Don't take possession of the dog, then demand your money back. That way you avoid a situation similar to yours which can be a huge pain and a drain financially to boot.


Okay, I've been pretty open to everyone's advice and suggestions. But, how in the world could anyone be expected to look into a puppy's pleading eyes and put it back on the truck - knowing, without a margin of a doubt - that it will not survive the trip back to MO? 

I understand the avoidance of a financial burden but at the very least, I gave him a chance to survive! Without immediate medical attention, his death would have been unbelievably painful. At my vets, he was kept hydrated through i.v.'s, given antibiotics and mild sedatives for the pain. He wasn't shooting out bloody pools of diarrhea like he was just hours after I took possession of him. Just hearing him wince in pain was enough to bring my husband (a tough guy if I've ever known one) to tears.

I respect your opinion but speaking for myself, I couldn't have sent him back to a certain death by neglect.

Again, only speaking for myself!


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

But how come it's compassion when you do it and supporting puppy mills when someone buys from a pet store? 

For someone as dog savvy as you claim to be, HOW did you miss all these red flags?


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Crusadedog said:


> Okay, I've been pretty open to everyone's advice and suggestions. But, how in the world could anyone be expected to look into a puppy's pleading eyes and put it back on the truck - knowing, without a margin of a doubt - that it will not survive the trip back to MO?
> 
> I understand the avoidance of a financial burden but at the very least, I gave him a chance to survive! Without immediate medical attention, his death would have been unbelievably painful. At my vets, he was kept hydrated through i.v.'s, given antibiotics and mild sedatives for the pain. He wasn't shooting out bloody pools of diarrhea like he was just hours after I took possession of him. Just hearing him wince in pain was enough to bring my husband (a tough guy if I've ever known one) to tears.
> 
> ...


Clearly you don't know me. I'm an extremely rational and logical person who tends to look at things from a completely dispassionate and very often overly analytic point of view. Please understand that this is my point of view.

Now, I have no emotional ties to a dog that just came off a truck. I've not met this dog before. I don't know it's personality. Therefore I have no more emotional ties than I would have to a dog I just met on the street. Because I have no ties, I can easily put the dog back on the truck and send it back to the breeder.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Crusadedog said:


> Okay, I've been pretty open to everyone's advice and suggestions. *But, how in the world could anyone be expected to look into a puppy's pleading eyes and put it back on the truck - knowing, without a margin of a doubt - that it will not survive the trip back to MO?*


You think about all of the pairs of eyes that will be meeting that puppy when it gets back to where it came from.

It's hard. Extremely hard. I don't know if many people would be able to do it if faced with the situation to be honest. But with situations like this you have to look at the big picture. The money that is exchanged for that sick puppy goes into hands where it will be used to cause even more cruelty to other dogs and puppies.

You have to leave that puppy, say a prayer and shed some tears for him and all the others where he came from... and then educate people on the cruelty that goes on in puppy mills and with brokers.


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

Dogstar said:


> But how come it's compassion when you do it and supporting puppy mills when someone buys from a pet store?
> 
> For someone as dog savvy as you claim to be, HOW did you miss all these red flags?


Dogstar: I took that puppy to an emergency clinic hours after he was delivered to me, which was at eight o' clock at night. From what I understand, and from the few puppy stores stories I've read, store owners don't even bother with medical intervention. The puppy sells? Great! It's sick and dies on the premises? They dispose of it. End of story. I simply couldn't subject my puppy to that. Does that make me emotional? Yes it does. Did I make an emotional decision that night? Absolutely. I did what I thought was right. I paid the price (not just financially, mind you) for being naive about _purchasing_ a puppy and I live with that decision every day since it happened. Also, I never claimed I was "so dog savvy." I came right out and said that my experience was in rescuing animals who I kept as pets, volunteering at the Humane Society as a teenager and in dog-sitting.

I saw some signs of illness, i.e. lethargy, not wanting water or food, etc. early that evening. A few hours later, he was throwing up and had bloody diarrhea thus, my trip to the emergency room.

Looking back? Even if I had seen more evidence of illness I couldn't have placed him back on that truck. Again, that's just me. 

I've admitted to my lack of knowledge but I still don't think that let's the breeder off the hook. They knew they were shipping a puppy that would most likely die.

Now, having admitted all of the above - repeatedly - why am I still made to feel like I was the idiot and that I deserved what I got? I don't understand the lack of compassion and understanding. I want to learn from this forum, not continue to be scolded for my lack of experience with puppy-millers.



hulkamaniac said:


> Clearly you don't know me. I'm an extremely rational and logical person who tends to look at things from a completely dispassionate and very often overly analytic point of view. Please understand that this is my point of view.
> 
> Now, I have no emotional ties to a dog that just came off a truck. I've not met this dog before. I don't know it's personality. Therefore I have no more emotional ties than I would have to a dog I just met on the street. Because I have no ties, I can easily put the dog back on the truck and send it back to the breeder.


You're absolutely right. I don't know you and you're entitled trational and logical nature. Your point of view is valid...to you. I simply don't operate that way. I became emotionally "tied" to that puppy the minute the breeder sent me his picture and the moment he was given to me, he became mine to take care of and try to save.

Again, I did what I thought was right. With me, he stood a chance. On that truck, he would have never made it back alive and would have suffered, unattended, ALL the way back.



ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> You think about all of the pairs of eyes that will be meeting that puppy when it gets back to where it came from.
> 
> It's hard. Extremely hard. I don't know if many people would be able to do it if faced with the situation to be honest. But with situations like this you have to look at the big picture. The money that is exchanged for that sick puppy goes into hands where it will be used to cause even more cruelty to other dogs and puppies.
> 
> You have to leave that puppy, say a prayer and shed some tears for him and all the others where he came from... and then educate people on the cruelty that goes on in puppy mills and with brokers.


I intellectually understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, I learned a hard lesson and will continue to try to educate people abut the cruelty of puppy mills. However, I still would not have placed him back. Couldn't do it then and after this experience, I will thankfully never have to make that decision again.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Crusadedog said:


> I intellectually understand what you're saying. Unfortunately, I learned a hard lesson and will continue to try to educate people abut the cruelty of puppy mills. However, I still would not have placed him back. Couldn't do it then and after this experience, I will thankfully never have to make that decision again.


It's good that you have learned from this sad, sad situation. 

In my job I see people every week that refuse to learn from their own situations. Why, is totally beyond me.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Crusadedog said:


> You're absolutely right. I don't know you and you're entitled trational and logical nature. Your point of view is valid...to you. I simply don't operate that way. I became emotionally "tied" to that puppy the minute the breeder sent me his picture and the moment he was given to me, he became mine to take care of and try to save.
> 
> Again, I did what I thought was right. With me, he stood a chance. On that truck, he would have never made it back alive and would have suffered, unattended, ALL the way back.


Well, we all must do what we think is right. My advice was to you if you find yourself in the same situation again or if someone else finds themselves in the same situation. Put the dog back on the truck. I can't save the world. Neither can you. I don't try.


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## Crusadedog (Mar 6, 2010)

To RonE and everyone who took the time email me privately or post their condolences.....thank you. For those of you that gave me advice without bashing me over the head for my ignorance with regards to puppy mills, I thank you too.

But, as I continue to read responses to my posts, I can't help but feel that I keep getting lectured, even after I admitted my mistakes, called myself remiss for not doing *enough* research and accepted my own share of responsibility for the incident.

I didn't do all that I should have done BEFORE I bought my new baby. I GET IT! The upside, at least it happened to me. I won't give up the fight. I will continue to educate others and I'm extremely tenacious. The experience will not be lost on me and I will not move on silently.

Thanks again to all of you who tried to help without being judgmental.

My sincere best wishes to all my fellow dog-lovers!



hulkamaniac said:


> Well, we all must do what we think is right. My advice was to you if you find yourself in the same situation again or if someone else finds themselves in the same situation. Put the dog back on the truck. I can't save the world. Neither can you. I don't try.


Well, I'm in academia. I'm afraid that trying to save the world is a prerequisite for teaching....at least for teachers who care about their students. And that is *my* nature so I try everyday.


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