# Crop ears of Luna ?



## deer96 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hi

This is Luna










I would like to crop her ears, but in what age I must do it and is it good to crop her ears also please your personal opinion about this.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

How old is Luna? I was under the impression that ears should be cropped when pups are quite young (a few weeks at most) but its not something I've ever considered because most of the breeds I like have ears that stand naturally.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I personally prefer the normal ear for the AmStaff/ Pit bull types. Their ears are very expressive and amusing to watch. The ears can make the dog look very smart and attentive. I also dislike any surgery that isn't necessary for their health since all surgery has a risk of infection, complications from the medicines, and of course pain during the healing process.

If you do crop them, have a vet who is experienced with it do the job. I've seen some really bad ear crops- like one dog who can't even get a bath or be in the rain without water pouring into her ears or another where each ear looks different.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Cropping is unnecessary and risky- and illegal in most of europe. You're cutting of a dog's ears for no reason. Plus, her ears are so cute! Why remove what makes her unique and beautiful?

That aside, she looks too old for it at this point.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

If you're going to do it, it needs to be done by a licensed, experienced vet. 

The sooner you can do it, the easier it will be for her to heal.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

How old is the pup? Most vets I know of don't like to crop over the 16 week mark.

I, personally, am all for a nice crop. I love the refined, "finished" look it gives.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Yes if you MUST have it done, go to a vet- a good one-- who uses good sterile technique, anesthesia, pain killers for Luna etc....
(I wont judge, my pup had ears and tail done, but they were done at 3 days for tail and I think a maybe 6 weeks for the ears, and I had no choice in the matter, she was 10 weeks old when I first saw her...)... The ear care was considerable-- posts and wrapping and she whined and whined it was clearly uncomfortable-- we lasted maybe 10 days after we brought her home and took everything off.... But I know sometimes you have to wrap and post and redress for MONTHS after the surgery or your dogs ears wont stand/ look right (and they were cut to "look right " right, so if you are going to have it done you should be committed to the aftercare...)....


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Candydb said:


> Yes if you MUST have it done, go to a vet- a good one-- who uses good sterile technique, anesthesia, pain killers for Luna etc....
> (I wont judge, my pup had ears and tail done, but they were done at 3 days for tail and I think a maybe 6 weeks for the ears, and I had no choice in the matter, she was 10 weeks old when I first saw her...)... The ear care was considerable-- posts and wrapping and she whined and whined it was clearly uncomfortable-- we lasted maybe 10 days after we brought her home and took everything off.... But I know sometimes you have to wrap and post and redress for MONTHS after the surgery or your dogs ears wont stand/ look right (and they were cut to "look right " right, so if you are going to have it done you should be committed to the aftercare...)....


FWIW, with Pit Bull types, the crops are generally on the shorter side, so I very much doubt the dog would have to be posted for months. My dogs stood right after surgery, and never had to be posted.


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## deer96 (Feb 11, 2013)

Thank you for your fast replies guys, Luna is almost 3 months old. Im not really sure if I should send her to the vet for this crop cuz so many friends of me alredy saw Luna they all love her and they put on my mind to crop her ears so I wanted to take a help from you guys so I know if there will be any problem for this.
Dont want to get influenced from my friends, they dont own dogs and they dont know too much about dogs so thanks a lot for your help will decide very soon.

Again thanks a lot.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I am getting an eleven week old Doberman puppy this coming weekend. I like the look of them with their ears cropped but I will not do it with her even though she is still young enough to have it done. I just think it is unneccesary to put them through it for just the looks. The Vets in this area will not crop or dock dogs. She is docked but that was done at a few days by a Vet in a different area and it would not have bothered me if she had not been done.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

No way. I love dog ears, they're so soft to pet and rub.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

deer96 said:


> Thank you for your fast replies guys, Luna is almost 3 months old. Im not really sure if I should send her to the vet for this crop cuz so many friends of me alredy saw Luna they all love her and they put on my mind to crop her ears so I wanted to take a help from you guys so I know if there will be any problem for this.
> Dont want to get influenced from my friends, they dont own dogs and they dont know too much about dogs so thanks a lot for your help will decide very soon.
> 
> Again thanks a lot.


I think you need to decide if you really care whether or not her ears are cropped, regardless of what your friends think. This is your dog's health and shouldn't be left to the opinions of friends.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> I think you need to decide if you really care whether or not her ears are cropped, regardless of what your friends think. This is your dog's health and shouldn't be left to the opinions of friends.


I was about to say the same thing. Don't crop her ears because your friends tell you that you should.


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

First and foremost, I agree, This is your decision to make, you need to decide whether *YOU* want to have it done or not: That being said, at 12 weeks I believe she is already to old to have it done.. Most vets that I have talked to, here in the United States, won't crop past 6-8 weeks


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I wouldn't put my dog through unnecessary cosmetic surgery with no benefits. That seems like a really selfish thing to do. Plus I LOVE dog's expressive ears.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Cropping has been illegal here for many years, for good reason.

In my opinion, it's no different than those crazy mothers who send their elementary school aged children in to get nose jobs.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

TorachiKatashi said:


> Cropping has been illegal here for many years, for good reason.
> 
> In my opinion, it's no different than those crazy mothers who send their elementary school aged children in to get nose jobs.


Not in the US, thankfully.

Damn.. I'm selfish AND crazy.. Well that's news to me.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

I love the ears the way they are. Like my GSD they are most know for their erect ears. I rescued him a year ago and he has soft ears they stand sometimes, but usually flip at the tips they are so expressive. I used to hate them, because some people think hes not a GSD, because of his ears, but now I just adore them love playing with them and petting them. I had people telling me I should tape/glue do what evere I could to get them to stand all the way. I think you should leave them the way they are. Here's a video showing his wonderfully expressive ears. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1HhnOKgDt4


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I would never crop my own dogs ears, but i do not have anything against a nice crop. I love the look of Torques Crop!


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I would never crop my own dogs ears, but i do not have anything against a nice crop. I love the look of Torques Crop!


Adjecyca! Nice to see ya over here!


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Tainted said:


> Adjecyca! Nice to see ya over here!


Nice to see you too!!!


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> I am getting an eleven week old Doberman puppy this coming weekend. I like the look of them with their ears cropped but I will not do it with her even though she is still young enough to have it done. I just think it is unneccesary to put them through it for just the looks. The Vets in this area will not crop or dock dogs. She is docked but that was done at a few days by a Vet in a different area and it would not have bothered me if she had not been done.



I so appreciate to see this.  My rottie has a tail and my son's dobie has both tail and ears. I LOVE a beautiful dobie with natural ears.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Tainted said:


> Not in the US, thankfully.
> 
> Damn.. I'm selfish AND crazy.. Well that's news to me.


I wouldn't say so. Most people I meet that just have companion dogs, rescue, etc. don't like the idea of cropping. Personally, I love a nice crop job on a pit, dobe, dane, etc. There are a few I could take or leave, but I feel like these really make the dog. I love Torque's crop job, btw!


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

How about a list of pros and cons.

Pros - it looks nice.....I am not really sure if there is any other reason so if there is someone else please add.

Cons - it can be ( probably will be ) painful. It can be costly if done by a proper vet. It can be hard to find a vet that is willing or experienced with ear crops. Like any surgery your taking the risk of putting them under anesthesia. it takes 10-14 days to have the sutures removed. and will probably need to wear a cone if she scratches at her ears. IT will probably take longer for them to completely heal and lose all the scabs. There is a lot to ear cropping it is like any surgical procedure and will take time and money if done properly.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

This is something you should look in to yesterday. finding a vet who knows what they are doing and can show you pictures of their work. at her age, time is of the essence. 

I guess Im selfish, low, mean, cruel ect. but the day I get a doberman, I will have the ears done, if they are not done when I get him/her. I think a dobe with ears (and a tail) looks very houndy and not what a dobe is supposed to look like. houndy to me looks dopey and just dumb. Yes I know hounds are not morons or complete dopes. But thats what they look like, and yes I own a hound (a beagle). I want a regal looking dog, a dog who looks intense. this is what they were bred for also, the look is important. 

Nothing wrong with a good vet doing a surgery.

whats the different between removing de claws? spaying? neutering? all are unecessary surgeries people do often.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Fade said:


> How about a list of pros and cons.
> 
> Pros - it looks nice.....I am not really sure if there is any other reason so if there is someone else please add.
> 
> Cons - it can be ( probably will be ) painful. It can be costly if done by a proper vet. It can be hard to find a vet that is willing or experienced with ear crops. Like any surgery your taking the risk of putting them under anesthesia. it takes 10-14 days to have the sutures removed. and will probably need to wear a cone if she scratches at her ears. IT will probably take longer for them to completely heal and lose all the scabs. There is a lot to ear cropping it is like any surgical procedure and will take time and money if done properly.


To add to the Pros

*Fewer ear infections due to improved air flow into the ear canal (I've seen this firsthand)the same as a dog with naturally upright ears.

*Better directional hearing

As far as pain, it's no more so than a spay or nueter. The surgery is done under anesthesia and thereare stitches to take care of for a few days. The worst part is posting, not for the dog, but for the owner, if this isn't done right, even the best crop will fail (underposted the ear will flop forward, if not streched tight enough you end up with a 'pocket' forming causeing the ear to flip over the head).


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Why don't they just breed dobes with upright ears? You can't crop ears here, so they now breed minpins with upright ears. 

I do appreciate the look of a cropped dobe, I agree they look a bit houndy with natural ears. But there's no denying it would save the dog some pain if it was bred with upright ears, and it would save the breeder/owner money and hassle to take care of the ears while they heal.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> *Fewer ear infections due to improved air flow into the ear canal (I've seen this firsthand)the same as a dog with naturally upright ears.


Looking at the pic, this dog appears to have fairly upright ears already - plenty of airflow naturally. Not to mention, ear infections aren't a huge problem for most dogs, even those with floppy ears.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> I wouldn't say so. Most people I meet that just have companion dogs, rescue, etc. don't like the idea of cropping. Personally, I love a nice crop job on a pit, dobe, dane, etc. There are a few I could take or leave, but I feel like these really make the dog. I love Torque's crop job, btw!


Thank you!


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## MimiAzura (Jan 5, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I would never crop my own dogs ears, but i do not have anything against a nice crop. I love the look of Torques Crop!


This! 
Torque is amazing <3 lol


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## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Personally, I wouldn't have much consideration for any vet that crops past 12 weeks.

And I find crops to look fairly tacky on most APBT (and AST/SBT). I much prefer Pitties to be natural. And I say that as someone who is not anti-cropping, I do prefer crops on Dobermans, but it does not lend the same aesthetic to the APBT. On top of that, I find it particularly unattractive on female APBT, it makes them look rather... Butch. Its just unflattering to the shape of the breeds head to me, and much more so on females.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I honestly don't care about the cropping and docking debate much at all. But age of a crop will depend on the kind of crop being done. Really long crops like dobes and danes that have to be posted for months to stand will need to be done earlier than a shorter more utilitarian style crop. 

There is only one cropped breed I am looking into and while I would not crop my dog, the crop is generally done between 4-6 months. But it is a short crop that goes straight across the ear.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Gumiho said:


> Personally, I wouldn't have much consideration for any vet that crops past 12 weeks.


Yeah, crops should be done between 8 and 12 weeks, it's possible to do a shorter (working) crop later, but the ear leather starts getting too thick by 16 weeks for success.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> To add to the Pros
> 
> *Fewer ear infections due to improved air flow into the ear canal (I've seen this firsthand)the same as a dog with naturally upright ears.
> 
> ...


If that were true, you'd see a bunch of Cockers/Bassets with cropped ears. Funny how it's only the "Protection" type breeds that seem to get those elusive ear infections so badly that the owners opt to crop them.

People should just admit they want the look, kind of like the people that get dogs that match their furniture or "Purse size dogs" so they can dress them up as accessories.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

MimiAzura said:


> This!
> Torque is amazing <3 lol


Thanks!



spotted nikes said:


> If that were true, you'd see a bunch of Cockers/Bassets with cropped ears. Funny how it's only the "Protection" type breeds that seem to get those elusive ear infections so badly that the owners opt to crop them.
> 
> People should just admit they want the look, kind of like the people that get dogs that match their furniture or "Purse size dogs" so they can dress them up as accessories.


Yeah, Pit Bull types are far from "protection" breeds.

And I'll be the very first to admit, I want the look.. and they seem to prefer cropped ears in the show ring for my breed.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> If that were true, you'd see a bunch of Cockers/Bassets with cropped ears. Funny how it's only the "Protection" type breeds that seem to get those elusive ear infections so badly that the owners opt to crop them.
> 
> People should just admit they want the look, kind of like the people that get dogs that match their furniture or "Purse size dogs" so they can dress them up as accessories.


The standard calls for the ears to be cropped though, that's the difference, and the ears get infected very easily when left uncropped. So cropping is the most logical solution to keep from having ear trouble AND conform to standard... 

I won't own dogs with droopy ears simply because I don't like the look AND I had way too much trouble with chows and beagles as a kid having ear infections. Any future dogs will be cropped if applicable, or will have erect ears. It looks good, fits standards (which are in place for a reason.. usually for the safety of the dog!) and is convenient and can prevent health issues down the road.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

spotted nikes said:


> If that were true, you'd see a bunch of Cockers/Bassets with cropped ears. Funny how it's only the "Protection" type breeds that seem to get those elusive ear infections so badly that the owners opt to crop them.
> 
> People should just admit they want the look, kind of like the people that get dogs that match their furniture or "Purse size dogs" so they can dress them up as accessories.


No, you would not, the ears of a Basset or a Cocker have a function in the dogs job abilities (as a scent funnel), Down ears on cropped breeds serve no purpose. In fact the reason for cropping was to prevent injuries when the dog was doing its job, be it combat with a boar or a human. True it's now more form than function, since crops have gotten longer and more refined, but I've definately seen a huge diffence in ear infection frequency dogs with down ear vs dogs with naturally up or cropped ears.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> the ears get infected very easily when left uncropped.


Really? As the owner of a floppy-eared dog, I don't find that to be true at all. And I don't clean the ears, either, because my vet told me not to. They're fine as they are and I've never had an ounce of trouble. 

The breed standard for a given breed may call for cropping because it fits the dog's function, and that's fine. But I don't find that to be an acceptable reason to crop unless the individual dog (not the breed) is actually going to be used for that function. How many dogs do you know who fight boars? I agree with spotted nikes that people who crop should just admit that it's about the look.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Really? As the owner of a floppy-eared dog, I don't find that to be true at all. And I don't clean the ears, either, because my vet told me not to. They're fine as they are and I've never had an ounce of trouble.


I've had SO many issues with floppy dogs in shelters and my own. My parent's chow mixes, my beagle, TONS (dozens and dozens) of lab mixes, cockers, beagles in shelters I've worked at. Never seen an ear infection personally in an erect-eared dog. Had ALL sorts of trouble with the floppy ears, and Sir's get dirty SO fast and have to be cleaned weekly at least, or he will start getting yeasty. Recon's were also nasty from a young age when he had all that hair and floppy ears. 

So yes, downed ears are very easily infected. That doesn't mean they all will be, but it is a lot easier for them to be infected than erect-eared dogs. So, it's a great reason to crop a croppable breed, since the temporary pain is going to be a lot better than an ear infection every 2 months for the rest of their lives or CONSTANT cleaning.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Really? As the owner of a floppy-eared dog, I don't find that to be true at all. And I don't clean the ears, either, because my vet told me not to. They're fine as they are and I've never had an ounce of trouble.
> 
> The breed standard for a given breed may call for cropping because it fits the dog's function, and that's fine. But I don't find that to be an acceptable reason to crop unless the individual dog (not the breed) is actually going to be used for that function. How many dogs do you know who fight boars? I agree with spotted nikes that people who crop should just admit that it's about the look.


Honestly, would it make you feel any better about cropping if everyone would just admit it's about the look? 

Don't find it acceptable for dogs to be cropped? Fine, that's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Just as I find it great that I'm given the right to do as I wish with my property. So.. since I WANT THE LOOK, I will continue cropping dogs..

I seriously don't understand why it bothers non-croppers so much. You don't choose to crop your dogs? Again.. that's fine. But, those of us who do crop, aren't hurting you one bit. If you don't agree with cropping, don't sweat it. And let those who do, continue on their happy way without having to continuously explain and backup their reasoning for cropping.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess nobody who is hurting animals is hurting me. Should I just ignore them? If someone thinks cropping is cruelty (as most countries in Europe do), it would be pretty selfish and cowardly for them to ignore it. . .

Yay. I love the "I'll do whatever I want to MY property" argument. Because dogs are just property and not worthy of any kind of welfare considerations, I guess.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I guess nobody who is hurting animals is hurting me. Should I just ignore them? If someone thinks cropping is cruelty (as most countries in Europe do), it would be pretty selfish and cowardly for them to ignore it. . .
> 
> Yay. I love the "I'll do whatever I want to MY property" argument. Because dogs are just property and not worthy of any kind of welfare considerations, I guess.


Unfortunately, no one speaks dog and no one knows if it's cruel or not. They aren't dieing because you cropped their ears, and there's usually more pain and swelling with a neuter or spay which *I* argue is cruelty just as much as you argue cropping/docking is. So you're mangling your pet and we're mangling ours. Yours isn't more noble.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Really? As the owner of a floppy-eared dog, I don't find that to be true at all. And I don't clean the ears, either, because my vet told me not to. They're fine as they are and I've never had an ounce of trouble.
> 
> The breed standard for a given breed may call for cropping because it fits the dog's function, and that's fine. But I don't find that to be an acceptable reason to crop unless the individual dog (not the breed) is actually going to be used for that function. How many dogs do you know who fight boars? I agree with spotted nikes that people who crop should just admit that it's about the look.


Me neither. I've had at least 1 or 2 cockers since 86, and have never had one with ear infections. Never really had to do much ear cleaning either. I have one now that I've owned for 6 yrs that has never had his ears cleaned, other than when he gets a bath, I dry the exterior, underside of the ear (about as far as I can stick a towel wrapped finger in). Also have a chow/border collie mix that is about 10 yrs old that has ears that are very fuzzy, and he's never had his ears cleaned other than the same way as the cocker. No ear infections.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> Unfortunately, no one speaks dog and no one knows if it's cruel or not. They aren't dieing because you cropped their ears, and there's usually more pain and swelling with a neuter or spay which *I* argue is cruelty just as much as you argue cropping/docking is. So you're mangling your pet and we're mangling ours. Yours isn't more noble.


Well, sure, it's all subjective. There are plenty of people who claim that beating a dog or hanging him by his choke collar isn't cruelty, or should be their right because the dog is their property, and in fact it probably is legal in most places if you call it "training". But I would have very little respect for anyone who didn't at least say something if they saw it.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I guess nobody who is hurting animals is hurting me. Should I just ignore them? If someone thinks cropping is cruelty (as most countries in Europe do), it would be pretty selfish and cowardly for them to ignore it. . .
> 
> Yay. I love the "I'll do whatever I want to MY property" argument. Because dogs are just property and not worthy of any kind of welfare considerations, I guess.


Ok.. You think it's such cruelty to crop, do something about it. Don't just on your computer and chastise those who choose to crop their dogs.. Do something. People all over the US are putting their dogs through cruel and unnecessary pain.. You need to quit being selfish and cowardly, and stand up for what you believe in!

Yep, my dogs are my property. It's not an argument, it's a fact. Ever been in the company of a freshly cropped pup? I know someone personally, who said her dog was in more pain after a neuter, than her freshly cropped pup, FWIW. And my pup acted as though nothing was different when I brought him home. A little itchy maybe.. But, bouncing off the walls back to his old self. 

Worry about those who are actually being cruel, and beating and hanging dogs by choke collars.. Which shouldn't even be compared to cropping.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So entire nations made federal laws on the subject just to ruin the looks of people's dogs and walk all over their "rights"? 

Plus, people will argue for their "rights" to do anything. How should it be decided what's an actual right and what's just their desire to do whatever they want to do?

And I didn't say I thought it was cruelty. . .I don't think people should do it but I'm undecided as to if it's actual cruelty. I was just saying that as a general principle, people need to stand up for what they believe is right, and against what they think is wrong. Those who disagree are free to ignore them, or argue their own side. But saying people should "leave me alone, I'll do what I want!" isn't a realistic expectation.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I prefer the look of upright ears on a dog. I don't intend to own any traditionally cropped breeds, but if I ever did get a doberman or a German pinscher, I would have the ears done. I like the look of the upright ear, and I dislike the look of the more houndy flopped ears on those particular breeds (I don't mind uncropped ears on pits or danes or some other breeds). I also don't think that the procedure is painful or results in any future problems for the dog (I based this both on a lot of reading and on meeting many cropped dogs). That's all I need, really. If the procedure was painful or had the potential to cause chronic issues, I would not support it at all (I don't support declawing cats, for example, or docking a dog's tail past a few days old unless it's an emergency situation).

There are a lot of stupid dog-related laws out there -- BSL, for example -- so I don't buy the argument that cropping/docking MUST be cruel or else they wouldn't be outlawed. To me, that's like saying that pits must be inherently dangerous, or else so many places wouldn't have banned them. There are always so many behind-the-scenes machinations that go into any law.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Willowy said:


> So entire nations made federal laws on the subject just to ruin the looks of people's dogs and walk all over their "rights"?
> 
> Plus, people will argue for their "rights" to do anything. How should it be decided what's an actual right and what's just their desire to do whatever they want to do?
> 
> And I didn't say I thought it was cruelty. . .I don't think people should do it but I'm undecided as to if it's actual cruelty. I was just saying that as a general principle, people need to stand up for what they believe is right, and against what they think is wrong. Those who disagree are free to ignore them, or argue their own side. But saying people should "leave me alone, I'll do what I want!" isn't a realistic expectation.


I wasn't targeting just you when I gave the whole cruelty bit. That was generalized to everyone who thinks it's cruel and are so against it, and sit on the computer chastising people who do it, and do nothing to try and stop it IRL. I come across a lot of folks like that on the internet.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, I don't know. What do YOU do against things you believe are cruelty? What can a person do? :/ Picket vet clinics? Write their congressperson (LOL). Honestly, trying to talk people out of it on the internet or in real life is almost all anyone can do, unless the issue is currently up for vote..


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Well, I don't know. What do YOU do against things you believe are cruelty? What can a person do? :/ Picket vet clinics? Write their congressperson (LOL). Honestly, trying to talk people out of it on the internet is almost all anyone can do, unless the issue is currently up for vote..


If I seen someone I believe is abusing an animal, I'd report it. You can't report cropped ears to the SPCA, obviously, but you could start a petition I guess.. hell I don't know. If you believe it's such abuse, do SOMETHING. I'm just sick of having to defend my decision to crop. People think it's mutilation. Ok.. so sit on your computer and bitch at people and express your disgust, and feel so sorry for the dogs put through all of this pain for human vanity, and do nothing to try and stop it. If people felt so strongly about it being cruel, seems to me they'd do something to stop this abuse from happening.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You said you think that beating and hanging a dog are abuse. What are you doing to stop this abuse from happening? Report it as you see it, sure, but what else to prevent it? what if it's not illegal, because they have right to train their dog as they please? A person can't report cropping, because it's legal here. I'm sure there are millions of petitions, but nobody pays attention to petitions. if you hear someone recommending it, you can speak out against it. and express your disgust. I'm sure the people who use that kind of "training" are sick of hearing about it too.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Willowy said:


> You said you think that beating and hanging a dog are abuse. What are you doing to stop this abuse from happening? Report it as you see it, sure, but what else to prevent it? what if it's not illegal, because they have right to train their dog as they please? A person can't report cropping, because it's legal here. I'm sure there are millions of petitions, but nobody pays attention to petitions. if you hear someone recommending it, you can speak out against it. and express your disgust. I'm sure the people who use that kind of "training" are sick of hearing about it too.


Seriously.. beating and hanging dogs isn't even in the same boat as cropping. Reporting it as you see it is all you can do.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It is sort of the same situation though. . .some people think it's abuse, some don't. In some places it's illegal, in other places people have a right to do it. So. Yeah. I guess all people can do is try to talk people out of it, right? Or should we just stop annoying them?


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Willowy said:


> It is sort of the same situation though. . .some people think it's abuse, some don't. In some places it's illegal, in other places people have a right to do it. So. Yeah. I guess all people can do is try to talk people out of it, right? Or should we just stop annoying them?


If someone asks your opinion on cropping, I can't stop you from sharing your thoughts and views on it.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

How's that saying go? You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar?

Telling someone you're disgusted with what they do and that they are mutilating their dog or are abusing them does absolutely NOTHING to change their minds or anyone else's. So you're not even trying to sit on the computer and change minds.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I guess nobody who is hurting animals is hurting me. Should I just ignore them? If someone thinks cropping is cruelty* (as most countries in Europe do)*, it would be pretty selfish and cowardly for them to ignore it. . .
> 
> Yay. I love the "I'll do whatever I want to MY property" argument. Because dogs are just property and not worthy of any kind of welfare considerations, I guess.


Countries don't have opinions. I know plenty of folks in Europe who vehemently oppose the cropping/docking ban, and still wish they hadn't had the right to crop taken away from them.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Obviously I have cropped dogs. I also hope it's obvious that I love my dogs very much. It has always been my observation that those who are the most opposed to cropping have very little actual knowledge of the procedure, recovery, and aftercare for cropped ears. Most have never even owned a cropped breed, and I'd venture to say nearly all have never owned a dog cropped by a talented, esteemed cropper.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sizzledog said:


> Countries don't have opinions. I know plenty of folks in Europe who vehemently oppose the cropping/docking ban, and still wish they hadn't had the right to crop taken away from them.


Exactly. A lot of laws are like this... like BSL, as I mentioned before. One group will decide that pits need to be outlawed (maybe based on a bad publicized attack) and will push this idea like crazy. Members of the general public won't understand all of the ins and outs, but will jump on the bandwagon and push for the ban. That's overly simplifying things, of course, but my point is that things that aren't necessarily for the best can become law anyway.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> <snip>
> and the ears get infected very easily when left uncropped. So cropping is the most logical solution to keep from having ear trouble <snip>


Amazing that this isn't true in Europe where it's illegal to crop ears ...



> I won't own dogs with droopy ears simply because I don't like the look AND I had way too much trouble with chows and beagles as a kid having ear infections. Any future dogs will be cropped if applicable, or will have erect ears. It looks good, fits standards (which are in place for a reason.. usually for the safety of the dog!) and is convenient and can prevent health issues down the road.


Most ear infections are due to yeast infections due to either poor food or too much swimming without proper care for the ears. And dogs in Europe aren't sicker than dogs in the US ... imagine that.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hast said:


> Amazing that this isn't true in Europe where it's illegal to crop ears .
> 
> Most ear infections are due to yeast infections due to either poor food or too much swimming without proper care for the ears. And dogs in Europe aren't sicker than dogs in the US ... imagine that.


There aren't ear infections in Europe!? 

I can't say any ear infection I've seen was related to poor diet OR swimming.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

hast said:


> Most ear infections are due to yeast infections due to either poor food or too much swimming without proper care for the ears. And dogs in Europe aren't sicker than dogs in the US ... imagine that.


I'm sorry, that's hilarious! Both my Pug and EB are on premium diets and neither swims. I rarely bathe them (we use alcohol free wipes to keep folds clean) yet both are very prone to ear infections as were my Mastiff and my families Rotts. There are no allergies, coats are in primo condition and they maintain a HEALTHY weight, but if I don't clean the ears regularly with a boric acid cleaning solution they WILL get ear infections. My current Doberman (cropped, though poorly posted by her prior owners) and the other Dobermans and GSDs I and my family have had rarely (if ever) had ear infections (and my parents fed CRAP food compared to what I feed). 

Frankly I care two twits what they do in Europe with it's over regulated goverments and Yes, my dogs are MY property and I make the medical decisions for them. Thank doG I live in a country where I can do so (at least for now).


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

I would just like to mention that I hardly ever have to clean my dobes' cropped ears.... maybe two or three times a year, at most. And usually that's when they've rolled in something stinky and somehow get goose poop in their ears.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I never clean my dog's ears either, and 2 of the 3 have drop ears. If it's such a cure-all, let's crop them all, yay! But whatever people have to tell themselves to sleep at night, I guess.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I never clean my dog's ears either, and 2 of the 3 have drop ears. If it's such a cure-all, let's crop them all, yay! But whatever people have to tell themselves to sleep at night, I guess.


Wasn't using that as an argument for or against cropping... just sharing my experiences with my own dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You talk like people _know_ that cropping is cruel and are trying to justify it to themselves. People who support it don't think it's cruel. Those who have experience with it can see that the dogs don't have problems even right after a crop. I assume that people give all of these justifications partly to get the anti-cropping people off their back. "I like the look and it doesn't harm the dog" might be more accurate, but it's not enough of a reason for a lot of people.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, but trying to use something THAT ridiculous really undermines the whole argument :/.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You talk like people _know_ that cropping is cruel and are trying to justify it to themselves. People who support it don't think it's cruel. *Those who have experience with it can see that the dogs don't have problems even right after a crop.* I assume that people give all of these justifications partly to get the anti-cropping people off their back. "I like the look and it doesn't harm the dog" might be more accurate, but it's not enough of a reason for a lot of people.


Thank you. Go experience what it's like to be in the company of a freshly cropped pup yourself.. then judge.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, I did see a fairly freshly-cropped Dobe pup once. . .it wasn't good. The owner got him somewhere (I didn't ask where) already cropped. He didn't want the trouble so he took the posts/bandages/whatever off. The edges of the pup's ears were all gross and crusty, and all wavy. And he kept scratching at his ears, looked painful. I suppose a better-maintained incision wouldn't be so icky, but I've never seen a decent crop job in real life, fresh or not, honestly. Mostly uneven.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Well, I did see a fairly freshly-cropped Dobe pup once. . .it wasn't good. The owner got him somewhere (I didn't ask where) already cropped. He didn't want the trouble so he took the posts/bandages/whatever off. The edges of the pup's ears were all gross and crusty, and all wavy. And he kept scratching at his ears, looked painful. I suppose a better-maintained incision wouldn't be so icky, but I've never seen a decent crop job in real life, fresh or not, honestly. Mostly uneven.


And since you don't know where the dog came from, you don't know if it was done by a vet, or even by a competent vet, or if it was taken care of at all after it was done, and obviously the post-crop owner didn't care about his dog or he wouldn't have just ripped bandages off.

There's a difference between having a dog altered by a licensed, practiced vet and having it done by any backwoods doc or from a pair of kitchen scissors. 


If people are fine with removing a dog's internal organs for their own personal preference, then why not the same for tails and ears? (again, as long as it's done by a vet in a reasonable time frame)
That makes NO sense to me. Cropping and docking is demonized but an unnecessary surgery that involves removing a dog's internal organs is held on a pedestal.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Because birth control is a necessary thing, considered a right for humans. People fight hard and long for humans to be provided with birth control, lack of it is considered a human rights violation. Body mods are hardly in the same category.

But, ya know, if we didn't have a pesky habit of killing animals when we think there are too many to find homes for, I'd probably be against that too.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Well, I did see a fairly freshly-cropped Dobe pup once. . .it wasn't good. The owner got him somewhere (I didn't ask where) already cropped. He didn't want the trouble so he took the posts/bandages/whatever off. The edges of the pup's ears were all gross and crusty, and all wavy. And he kept scratching at his ears, looked painful. I suppose a better-maintained incision wouldn't be so icky, but* I've never seen a decent crop job in real life, fresh or not, honestly. Mostly uneven.*


The bolded part is precisely the problem. If you've never seen/cared for a nice crop in person, IMO you cannot legitimately judge the entire practice of cropping. 

I have a ton of experience with cropped ears, and the only time I've ever seen a puppy in obvious discomfort during the healing process is when it was done by a vet that only did "pet crops" - no talent, improper aftercare, etc.

I have a 14 week old Doberman puppy, so I am posting ears on a regular basis right now. She's the happiest puppy in the world.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> Well, I did see a fairly freshly-cropped Dobe pup once. . .it wasn't good. The owner got him somewhere (I didn't ask where) already cropped. He didn't want the trouble so he took the posts/bandages/whatever off. The edges of the pup's ears were all gross and crusty, and all wavy. And he kept scratching at his ears, looked painful. I suppose a better-maintained incision wouldn't be so icky, but I've never seen a decent crop job in real life, fresh or not, honestly. Mostly uneven.


Sounds like the puppy wasn't maintained at all, the ears shouldn't have been posted if they were still healing, they should have been taped upright and open to the air. If the breeder had it done, the pup shouldn't have been released to the new owner until the ears were healed and ready for posting and the breeder should have been helping with the posting. One (improperly maintained) pup from a irresponsible breeder who used a vet that didn't know what they were doing hardly qualifies you to judge.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So how many vets are there who are "good" at cropping? Isn't that sort of like saying that it's OK to alpha roll your dog, but only if you have Cesar Millan come to your house to do it because he's the only one who does it right? Having it "done right" is so rare as to be statistically insignificant? 

I'm fairly certain that most crops are not done by those vets who are good at it, at least judging by the unevenness. I think the majority of the small dogs I know are cropped (being that most small dogs I know are traditionally cropped breeds), and they must have been done really young, because they were done and healed by the time the owners got them at 8 weeks. I know at least 5 Mini Schnauzers and their ears are all wonky. The Min Pins don't look too great. Pretty sure all the cropped pit bulls I've seen got garage jobs, or if a vet did it, that vet should be fired. If there was no demand for a cropped dog, or if it was illegal, those dogs at least would have been spared the pain for ears that don't even look good.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Willowy said:


> So how many vets are there who are "good" at cropping?


Quite a few, actually. The problem is, these croppers cater to responsible breeders and not all of them have time in their schedules to crop single BYB puppies. Responsibly bred dobes rarely (if ever) have bad crops. The problem is, the public doesn't generally buy from responsible breeders. They don't want to pay $2000+ for a dog, even though $400-$500 of that is the breeder's cost of having the puppy cropped by a _good_ cropper. Banning cropping because most cropping vets suck would be like banning breeding because most breeders suck.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> If there was no demand for a cropped dog, or if it was illegal, those dogs at least would have been spared the pain for ears that don't even look good.


If it were illegal, do you really think those people would stop doing it in their garages? Or do you think the only people who would have to stop doing it would be the expert vets who do an amazing job (I have met a lot of cropped show dogs with lovely ears), and you'd still see just as many bad crop jobs in your neck of the woods?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> Pretty sure all the cropped pit bulls I've seen got garage jobs, or if a vet did it, that vet should be fired. If there was no demand for a cropped dog, or if it was illegal, those dogs at least would have been spared the pain for ears that don't even look good.


I'm sorry, but the if _____ was illegal, dishonest people wouldn't have/do it. Sorry, but that's not how those people work. Banning something only hurts those who abide by the law.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sizzledog said:


> Quite a few, actually. The problem is, these croppers cater to responsible breeders and not all of them have time in their schedules to crop single BYB puppies. Responsibly bred dobes rarely (if ever) have bad crops. The problem is, the public doesn't generally buy from responsible breeders. They don't want to pay $2000+ for a dog, even though $400-$500 of that is the breeder's cost of having the puppy cropped by a _good_ cropper. Banning cropping because most cropping vets suck would be like banning breeding because most breeders suck.


I'm curious about something. Let's say I decided a Dobie was the perfect dog for me, but I didn't agree with cropping, would a responsible breeder honor that request and not crop the dog? (generally speaking) Would the cost of not having to have the dog cropped reduce what I paid for the dog?

To be clear, I'm just genuinely curious, not trying to be confrontational.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ireth0 said:


> I'm curious about something. Let's say I decided a Dobie was the perfect dog for me, but I didn't agree with cropping, would a responsible breeder honor that request and not crop the dog? (generally speaking) Would the cost of not having to have the dog cropped reduce what I paid for the dog?
> 
> To be clear, I'm just genuinely curious, not trying to be confrontational.


There are good breeders in the working lines that would, I know of one that does both American show standard and Euro Standard (cropped/docked or not cropped dock) litters. Different breeding of course.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm not a breeder, but from what I've seen, yes, a good breeder should easily let you purchase an uncropped dog. It's a little different with tail-docking because it has to be done very early, before the bones harden and grow and it would become a painful, cruel tail amputation. Because show breeders can't know which newborn pups will become show dogs and which will be pets, they dock all tails. However, ears are done after the pups are old enough to be evaluated, so a pet owner could certainly skip the cropping process. I would imagine you'd pay less, yeah.

If you want an undocked, uncropped dog, you can get that, too -- my friend recently bought an undocked rottie from a litter that was specifically intended to produce dogs that would be exported to Europe.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

ireth0 said:


> I'm curious about something. Let's say I decided a Dobie was the perfect dog for me, but I didn't agree with cropping, would a responsible breeder honor that request and not crop the dog? (generally speaking) Would the cost of not having to have the dog cropped reduce what I paid for the dog?
> 
> To be clear, I'm just genuinely curious, not trying to be confrontational.


No worries - it's a good question!

The answer is 99.9999% going to be No. The reason being, at the time of cropping the breeder doesn't know which puppies will be pet quality and which will be show quality. Dobes are a very competitive breed, and most of the time "final grading" is done after the ears are cropped. I do know of one good breeder in America that is known for leaving ears natural when requested, and I usually refer people to that breeder if they insist on natural ears. 

Now, if someone wanted natural ears and also could handle a high drive working/sport dog, there are more options. But IMO, getting "too much dog" for your lifestyle just for the sake of natural ears is extremely unwise. 

Also, it is very hard to rehome a natural eared dog, if for some reason you had to return the dog to the breeder. For all the people that say they want a natural eared puppy, it seems that very few actually mean it. I had a puppy here (beautiful dog, fantastic temperament, out of titled and health tested parents) for nearly 5 months because he couldn't be cropped due to an ear injury early in life. The people that said they wanted a natural eared dobe disappeared once one actually became available.

He finally was sold into a service dog home in Canada, but only because I knew the woman and kept hassling her about taking the natural eared puppy. 

I also volunteer and foster for rescue. I'd say about 80% of applicants want cropped dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh huh, I was wrong! I thought that cropping was done once pups were evaluated. Are dobes evaluated later than most other breeds?

(Could be different here in Canada, too. I have seen more natural dogs at shows here -- danes, mostly, though.)

You could still find one that breeds natural litters to export, though, and get on their waiting list.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Crantastic said:


> Oh huh, I was wrong! I thought that cropping was done once pups were evaluated. Are dobes evaluated later than most other breeds?


That's why I advise the working lines (as Sizzle said, if you can handle the drive) Dobes are cropped at 8 weeks, the show potential may not be seen until 12-16 weeks, once the ears have healed and posting has started.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Oh huh, I was wrong! I thought that cropping was done once pups were evaluated. Are dobes evaluated later than most other breeds?


Evaluations start when they're wee babies, but Dobermans are one of the most competitive breeds in existence. The level of quality is so high, the competition so fierce, that many breeders (even those who have been in the breed 40+ years) do not know which puppies will go to which homes until after cropping.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> That's why I advise the working lines (as Sizzle said, if you can handle the drive) Dobes are cropped at 8 weeks, the show potential may not be seen until 12-16 weeks, once the ears have healed and posting has started.


Exactly. But unfortunately, not many people seem capable of handling even BYB temperament, let alone a sport temperament. 

It's not just energy, folks. We're talking a high drive, working temperament of a breed created for _personal protection._ In most cases, that's a heckuva lotta dog, even for experienced Doberman owners.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Makes sense. I guess you could do shorter working crops a little later, but the long show crops would benefit from being done at the earlier end of the range?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Crantastic said:


> Makes sense. I guess you could do shorter working crops a little later, but the long show crops would benefit from being done at the earlier end of the range?


Yep, as I said, the ear leather starts 'setting' at 12 weeks, by 16 weeks it's too late to crop...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh, and just so everyone knows, I have seen uncut ears posted, they will stand with time, but it gives a 'bat eared' appearance similar to a Pharoah hound.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> I'm sorry, but the if _____ was illegal, dishonest people wouldn't have/do it. Sorry, but that's not how those people work. Banning something only hurts those who abide by the law.



Obviously, criminals will do whatever they want to do. But at least you'd know it was illegal when you saw them. As it stands now, there's no way to know unless you actually see him cutting the dog's ears. And I doubt little old Mrs. Johnson would be hog-tying her Min Pin, breaking out the razor blades and proudly walking her illegally cropped dog down the sidewalk! I just think it's a shame that people think that the cropped look is how a breed is "supposed to" look, and even prefer a bad crop to no crop (I had a Dobe owner tell me that. . ."at least you can tell it's a Dobe with a bad crop, instead of looking like a stupid hound"!). If we could at least change the "default" in people's minds, that would go a long way in preventing that kind of thing.

All the Dobes with cut ears I've seen in real life had flopped ears or had one sticking out to the side or some other issue. Is that because the breeders do it automatically and the owners don't care enough to maintain them, or does that happen even with proper care?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> All the Dobes with cut ears I've seen in real life had flopped ears or had one sticking out to the side or some other issue. Is that because the breeders do it automatically and the owners don't care enough to maintain them, or does that happen even with proper care?


The Internet is a lovely thing. One simple Google image search will allow you to see hundreds -- nay, thousands! -- of cropped dobes, so you can judge the crops for yourself instead of having to go by the few you have run across in real life. Try a search for "cropped doberman" or "doberman show crop."

(And yes, you will see some ugly crops -- some a result of inexperienced croppers, some a result of people not posting the ears correctly. But you will also see a lot of nice, symmetrical ones.)



> Obviously, criminals will do whatever they want to do. But at least you'd know it was illegal when you saw them. As it stands now, there's no way to know unless you actually see him cutting the dog's ears.


If you can't tell a bad crop from a good one, that's pretty sad. Have you ever been to a show?


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Obviously, criminals will do whatever they want to do. But at least you'd know it was illegal when you saw them. As it stands now, there's no way to know unless you actually see him cutting the dog's ears. And I doubt little old Mrs. Johnson would be hog-tying her Min Pin, breaking out the razor blades and proudly walking her illegally cropped dog down the sidewalk! I just think it's a shame that people think that the cropped look is how a breed is "supposed to" look, and even prefer a bad crop to no crop (I had a Dobe owner tell me that. . ."at least you can tell it's a Dobe with a bad crop, instead of looking like a stupid hound"!). If we could at least change the "default" in people's minds, that would go a long way in preventing that kind of thing.
> 
> All the Dobes with cut ears I've seen in real life had flopped ears or had one sticking out to the side or some other issue. Is that because the breeders do it automatically and the owners don't care enough to maintain them, or does that happen even with proper care?


We're hopefully not going to change the "default" in this country because the "default" is cropped. It's the breed standard. It's the way the creator of the breed intended for them to look. 

And no, properly posted ears don't look bad. Most people don't post long enough, but that's just laziness and/or ignorance on the part of the owner... and many owners won't ask their breeder if their dog's ears are done. They assume.

Here are some examples of cropped dogs with nice ears, and this is just from a sample size of... my own backyard. 

(only 14wks old, still in progress!)

jIMG_0192 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr



















(Not my dog, but I helped post his ears)


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

And here's an example of how proper aftercare makes all the difference in the world, even on an awful, shapeless, terrible crop.... ugly ears are just as much a product of poor posting as they are of poor design.


.... this is the result of posting by the moron vet who cropped this dog:









.... and this is what she looked like after I fixed her ears by simply posting them the way they should have been posted in the first place:









Is it still an awful crop? Yes.
Is it still uneven? Yes.
Do I still wish the puppy had been left natural? Yes.
... but the "after" photo look a lot better than the "before."


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> If you can't tell a bad crop from a good one, that's pretty sad. Have you ever been to a show?


While "good" vs "bad" is largely selective, if it's a really bad job of course anyone can tell. What you can't tell is whether a VET did a really bad job or if the owner did a really bad job. There is absolutely no way to prosecute someone for cutting their own dog's ears unless they are observed doing it.

I think it's really really really sad that cutting a dog's ears off is the standard/default.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'll be honest: I don't like the look of cropped dobes and pits. The look just doesn't appeal to ME. I'm not even going to say why, because doing so will come across as insulting or inviting people to change my mind and I don't think there's any need for that. 

Here's the key though, folks, I don't think it's cruel and I don't think arguing with other people (who liked cropped dogs) about them liking the look is effective either.

I CERTAINLY don't think making crops illegal is going to effectively end them happening. We have plenty of experience in this country with making things illegal and having quack jobs do hack jobs and cost lives. All you shut down with that nonsense is the people doing it right, and with proper technique to avoid suffering and complications. Yes, you may have better options for prosecution, but honestly? HONESTLY? Do you think with the state of animal welfare laws and the rate of prosecution for breaking them, in this country, anyone is EVER going to look at a cropped dog, regardless of how badly done the crop job, and arrest someone?


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

My replies in bold.



Willowy said:


> While "good" vs "bad" is largely selective, if it's a really bad job of course anyone can tell. What you can't tell is whether a VET did a really bad job or if the owner did a really bad job. There is absolutely no way to prosecute someone for cutting their own dog's ears unless they are observed doing it.
> 
> *There actually are ways of telling, but I don't expect someone who doesn't know anything about cropping to be able to identify a "home job." There is more involved than just removing a portion of the ear.*
> 
> ...


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I'll be honest: I don't like the look of cropped dobes and pits. The look just doesn't appeal to ME. I'm not even going to say why, because doing so will come across as insulting or inviting people to change my mind and I don't think there's any need for that.
> 
> Here's the key though, folks, I don't think it's cruel and I don't think arguing with other people (who liked cropped dogs) about them liking the look is effective either.
> 
> I CERTAINLY don't think making crops illegal is going to effectively end them happening. We have plenty of experience in this country with making things illegal and having quack jobs do hack jobs and cost lives. All you shut down with that nonsense is the people doing it right, and with proper technique to avoid suffering and complications. Yes, you may have better options for prosecution, but honestly? HONESTLY? Do you think with the state of animal welfare laws and the rate of prosecution for breaking them, in this country, anyone is EVER going to look at a cropped dog, regardless of how badly done the crop job, and arrest someone?


Exactly, and that's fine that you prefer the natural look!  As long as you (general you) don't try to legislate your personal preferences over mine, I am totally ok with people liking their dogs cropped, uncropped, dyed purple, dressed up in frilly outfits.... whatever floats your boat! 

As much as I hate long nails on dogs, I'm not pushing to have a law made that if someone's dog has long nails, the owner must be fined and the dog seized. I just make sure I keep my _own dogs' nails_ in accordance with my personal preference. That's all I really have the right to do, IMO.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sizzledog said:


> I just make sure I keep my _own dogs' nails_ in accordance with my personal preference. That's all I really have the right to do, IMO.


Yep. That's pretty much what it comes down to for me. Add in the fact that I MIGHT like a dobe someday, but will never own a pit (nothing wrong with the breed, I adore them, I am just not the right owner) I have even LESS right to have a freaking opinion on the subject.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not really against cropping in general, but I don't really buy the "oh there's no pain or discomfort because they act so normal and happy!" thing, either, and it's always bothered me. Dogs walk around happily on crappy hips and torn ACLs acting pretty normal, too. A lot of people don't think a limping dog is painful precisely because it is acting so normal and happy otherwise. 

Again, I don't truly oppose it or think it should be outlawed, but I just really don't believe there is no pain or discomfort involved in having your ears cut, remodeled, and then posted for months. It's painful to get your ears _pierced_, for crying out loud. Is it the worst pain in the world? Obviously, no. Do they recover fine with proper aftercare? Obviously, yes. But it's disingenuous to me to use arguments like "but it doesn't even hurt!" or "but it prevents ear infections!" instead of sticking to the bottom line of "Because this is how breed x should look".


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't think anyone was using it as an argument, but someone had made a pros/cons list and it wa a just beig added too. Obviously, everyone who is for it does it because they like the look and/or want to show. The rest of the pros are just added incentives to have it done, if you're NOT showing.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> All the Dobes with cut ears I've seen in real life had flopped ears or had one sticking out to the side or some other issue. Is that because the breeders do it automatically and the owners don't care enough to maintain them, or does that happen even with proper care?


It's because they got dogs and didn't properly post the ears or were too lazy to post the ears at all. This is the result of (most likely) getting the dog from a Pet store or byb who may have had the crop done but didn't give the new owners the support and instruction for properly posting.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I'm against cropping and docking. I just cannot support amputation for cosmetic reasons. There are some dogs that benefit from docking- like working dogs such as spaniels who will beat their tails to death working through dense shrub. But doing it just because "it's the breed standard" or "it's tradition" when you're not going to use the dog for those purposes is entirely pointless imo and causes unnecessary pain.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have nothing against cropping or docking but to tell the truth, when I got my Dobe pup, even if she had been young enough to crop her and I do love the look of a cropped Dobe, after reading about all the aftercare needed to do it properly, I would not do it just for the look. She will never be shown except in maybe Obedience or Agility so her ears do not matter. I am partial to hounds so her looking more like a "hound dog" is fine with me. She did have her tail docked before I got her and she is only the second dog I have ever owned with a docked tail, the other one being another Dobe I had years ago that also was not cropped.


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## jenns (Feb 16, 2007)

No. Don't cause your dog pain for superficial reasons.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

jenns said:


> No. Don't cause your dog pain for superficial reasons.


Is your dog spayed/neutered?


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## jenns (Feb 16, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> Is your dog spayed/neutered?


I would be against spaying and neutering if there weren't so many animals dying needlessly due to overpopulation. There really is no alternative right now. I don't see how that relates to a cosmetic procedure to make my dog look the way I want it to look, or for the more common reason, the way someone else wants it to look.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Spaying and neutering is not purely for cosmetic reasons. Very different.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Where is that photo you posted on the last page from, Sibe? It's bad form to post something like that and not explain the context.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Sibe said:


> Spaying and neutering is not purely for cosmetic reasons. Very different.


No, but for many, they are still unnecessary procedures. You're still cutting out and removing your dogs organs, in most cases, because you don't want to deal with the possibility of an "oops litter", when that is fairly easily preventable.

And another reason for example, is I had my female spayed because I didn't want to deal with heats. She was spayed purely for my own benefit..

It really isn't all that different.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tainted said:


> And another reason for example, is I had my female spayed because I didn't want to deal with heats. She was spayed purely for my own benefit.


Yep the 'there is no choice' is just kind of baloney. The pet over population problem isn't being created by people who are responsible owners. It *isn't* hard to keep an accidental litter from happening - most of the pet over population problems from people not BOTHERING. It's not like the presence of a uterus and ovaries or testes is going to magically make litters happen. The propaganda surrounding it is also just ridiculous. There is VERY limited health benefit, with quite a lot of evidence to it being BAD for the dog - especially early s/n. That doesn't mean I don't think rescues speutering before sending animals home is bad, or spay/neuter contracts from breeders - it's a way of making SURE that YOU are not going to someday contribute, even though the dog is out of your hands.

But I make no bones about it: My females are spayed because I don't want to deal with the restriction and responsibility, or the mess. 

Doesn't do a thing for the dogs, and it's not preventing unwanted litters since they'd no more be reproducing than my males. Well, Jack has bred but before he came to me and he's titled and health tested.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Isn't that like saying that having your tubes tied is like having your tongue snake-split? The whole body mod = birth control comparison sounds pretty weird to me.

And I can't be 100% sure my dogs would never have the chance to procreate if they weren't fixed. I'm sure it would be OK most of the time, maybe even 99.9% of the time, but it only takes one little slip-up for a pregnancy to happen, and I'm not perfect. And if they did have an accidental litter, well, options are slim for big hairy mutts. If the market is saturated due to everybody else's dogs having puppies, what exactly would I do with them? Of the options, I'll go with the "nobody dies" one, thanks.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Isn't that like saying that having your tubes tied is like having your tongue snake-split? The whole body mod = birth control comparison sounds pretty weird to me.


Let me know when the standard for dog sterilization doesn't involve a complete hysterectomy or castration. Or, conversely, when humans start having complete hysterectomies and castration for birth control purposes (or even better yet, when we do a complete hysterectomy when a woman doesn't want a period, instead of uterine ablation), instead of serious health issues that require them. 

You don't lose the benefits of the hormones when you get a vasectomy or your tubes tied. You DO when you have a hysterectomy or castration. Never mind the convenience factor of 'not having any more heats' wouldn't be there, and they couldn't pump up the 'behavioral benefits' (which are bullcrap) of spaying and neutering. 

So no. A tubal ligation is nothing at all like a body-mod. Nor is it comparable to a hysterectomy. Comparing the reasons have COMPLETE (ova/and uterine removal) hysterectomies and castration to the reason we alter dogs is just not sensible. If someone won't spay their pyo bitch, or neuter a male with cancer ... Then we'll take irresponsibility.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OK, fine. So how's a hysterectomy like a body mod? I do know women who had hysterectomies for birth control (after tubal ligation failed. . .twice for one woman ).

When other reliable forms of birth control are available for dogs, we'll talk about the merits of each option. For now it's all we got.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm so tired of spaying/neutering being compared to cropping/docking. Not the same thing at all. There are a variety of reasons why people spay/neuter, and NONE of them are cosmetic. Either you don't think there's anything wrong with cropping or docking, or you do. Whether you or anyone else thinks a completely different procedure is wrong or not has nothing to do with it. 

I'm not even _against_ cropping and docking and this crap drives me nuts. Stand behind what you believe or don't, stop dodging and deflecting.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

They are both superficial procedures that we want done because we want them to look one way or be easier to live with. 

It doesn't matter if one is cosmetic and the other isn't. Now the argument is that you shouldn't cause pain to your dog for superficial procedures. Which they BOTH are.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Nope, the argument is that you shouldn't cause your dog pain for _cosmetics_. Which spay/neuter isn't, and is kind of the whole point of why people oppose crop/dock - not feeling that cosmetics is a "good enough" reason. So of course it matters if one is and one isn't. The discussion at hand isn't whether dogs should ever be caused pain for ANY procedure. It's whether they should be caused pain for THESE procedures. 

IOW, that's a mighty big "or" in "look one way OR be easier to live with" (which is an oversimplification of reasons why people spay/neuter, anyway).


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> Where is that photo you posted on the last page from, Sibe? It's bad form to post something like that and not explain the context.


 Oooh I'm not sure I could find the original source. Pic I found some day looking for ear crop photos and saved it.


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## fureverywhere (Mar 3, 2013)

IMHO Natural ears are the best, people crop ears for breed specifications...which I feel is idiotic, or to get a certain "look". I've read that cropped ears can actually make other dogs more agressive towards a dog when their ears and tails are shortened. By only having a stub for tail and messed up ears, a dog's whole body language towards other dogs is changed. Besides a wagging tail and floppy ears are cute. Our dogs can look intimidating enough, no reason to inflict pain on them or disfigure them on purpose besides.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

fureverywhere said:


> I've read that cropped ears can actually make other dogs more agressive towards a dog when their ears and tails are shortened.


I could _maybe_ buy the tail argument, although dogs pay more attention to the base of a tail than to the tip (plus there are breeds with natural bobtails, like Australian shepherds, and they do fine), but cropped ears, really? There are many breeds with natural prick ears that are shorter than a dane or doberman crop (like most of the spitzes), and many breeds where their fur makes the ears hard to see in the first place (like pomeranians or bichons in show coat). There are dogs with long, heavy ears (like bloodhounds or bassets) that can't move their ears as much as a breed like a border collie or jack russell terrier can. You don't see them getting beat up by other dogs all the time.



Sibe said:


> Oooh I'm not sure I could find the original source. Pic I found some day looking for ear crop photos and saved it.


So you're just going to toss in a pic of a painful-looking crop (on a white doberman, which responsible breeders wouldn't be breeding in the first place) with no context at all? It seems like you're trying to make a statement that THAT is what cropping is like for all dogs, and that is inaccurate.

I agree with sassafras -- if you are pro-cropping and docking, own the fact that it's for cosmetic reasons (in the majority of cases, anyway) and that you don't consider it cruel. If you don't like it, say that you disagree with the idea of causing a dog pain, even minimal pain, for cosmetic reasons. There's no need to offer up "scientific" reasons for cropping (with no proof), shame people on either side, throw around ugly pics with no context, or tell anecdotes about hicks in your neighborhood using scissors or razor blades on dogs' ears. It's not going to change _anyone's_ mind, either way.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

fureverywhere said:


> IMHO Natural ears are the best, people crop ears for breed specifications...which I feel is idiotic, or to get a certain "look". *I've read that cropped ears can actually make other dogs more agressive towards a dog when their ears and tails are shortened. By only having a stub for tail and messed up ears, a dog's whole body language towards other dogs is changed.* Besides a wagging tail and floppy ears are cute. Our dogs can look intimidating enough, no reason to inflict pain on them or disfigure them on purpose besides.


Lmao. I feel _that_ is idiotic. I'd like to know where you've read this. Dogs don't look for flopping, bouncing ears when determining if another dog is aggressive.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I spay my dogs because I do not want to have them adding to the pet overpopulation. Bitches that are not bred have a higher incidence of getting pyometra. Also, see a lot of female dogs that get mammary cancer and studies have shown the more times a bitch goes into heat the higher the odds of her getting the cancer. On the males, if a cyptorchid the answer would be a big yes on neutering. Seem to be seeing more of these lately and do not know why. Friday a boxer with a unilateral crypto and a doberman with a bi-lateral cryptorchidism. I do not relate my neutering of my dogs to that of cropping or docking of a dog. I neuter for health reasons and I crop/dock for the look. 
Although I just had to have one of my adult chihuahua's tail docked. He now looks like a mini aussie. He liked playing chase with the other dogs and another dog bit his tail. The wound caused a dead spot in the tail and we had to amputate his tail. 
On puppy crops-pet peeve when owners do not think their puppy needs to have pain meds for after care. Luckily for the little pup it is not an option but a must for owners to go home with pain meds and antibiotics for any crops. Dobermans owners tend to get lazy and will stop coming to have the dog's ears posted. We do not even charge for the repostings. Would rather have the owners come in to post the ears to have a nice looking crop, then see the dogs with lazy ears. My doberman I kept posted till he was close to 10 months of age. 

Sizzledog-very nice crops on your dog. Just curious what is your protocol for the after care on posting of those ears. You can PM your steps or right here on the forum. Thank you


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Sizzledog-very nice crops on your dog. Just curious what is your protocol for the after care on posting of those ears. You can PM your steps or right here on the forum. Thank you


Sure, what exactly are you wanting to know? 

When the ears are healing (takes about a week) the cropping vet tapes them to a cup to keep the edges from flapping around. The edges are cleaned a few times a day, and antibiotic ointment applied afterwards. After a week, the stitches are removed... I do this myself because the puppies don't mind, and the stitches used are very slippery and easy to remove.

Once the ears are healed, the posting begins. My posts are made out of soft, absorbent paper shop towels. I tape the base of the ear, then use vet wrap on the rest. Posts stay in about a week, then are removed and the ears are cleaned and allowed to "air out" - we observe how the ears are doing at that time, so we can see if we need to alter the way we're posting to correct any potential problems in getting them to stand perfectly straight.

On the cup.... this was 2 days post-cropping.









First posts...

jIMG_9808 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr

Posts now, at 15 weeks:

kkIMG_0542 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr

We give vitamin C all throughout the posting process, to help the ear cartilage form nicely. We post until the ears are done, which means at least past teething. Right now, my puppy's ears stay up on their own for about 12 hours before they start to droop.

Airing out between postings:


kIMG_0362 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr


kIMG_0122 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr

Crops this long are very expressive - they can move their ears just like dogs with naturally erect ears.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Reason for asking=work at a vet that does cropping. Always looking for a better way. When I first started they were using molefoam and this did not work that great on the longer crops. Plus they were not bridging either. So I got put in charge of the aftercare because I have had Dobermans and have done the postings myself. We now use the rod backer foam and have better luck with that. A couple more questions. 
What do you use to clean the ears with during the healing process? What type of ointment? I figure a TAO but don't want to assume!
What dose of Vitamin C? Do you find one brand of shop towels works the best? There are others at the clinic who does the postings too. I am starting to see again the crease in the dog's ear by the skull. What do you think causes this? How do you prevent thnis from happening? like on this puppy http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...763105D0FCD4F3CFA9B6C5042BDDA6&selectedIndex= Sorry for all the questions but I always am looking for different ways. Thank you for answering my questions.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Reason for asking=work at a vet that does cropping. Always looking for a better way. When I first started they were using molefoam and this did not work that great on the longer crops. Plus they were not bridging either. So I got put in charge of the aftercare because I have had Dobermans and have done the postings myself. We now use the rod backer foam and have better luck with that. A couple more questions.
> What do you use to clean the ears with during the healing process? What type of ointment? I figure a TAO but don't want to assume!
> What dose of Vitamin C? Do you find one brand of shop towels works the best? There are others at the clinic who does the postings too. I am starting to see again the crease in the dog's ear by the skull. What do you think causes this? How do you prevent thnis from happening? like on this puppy http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...763105D0FCD4F3CFA9B6C5042BDDA6&selectedIndex= Sorry for all the questions but I always am looking for different ways. Thank you for answering my questions.


1. I cannot stand the backer rod method, though I know it's popular. My issue with it is that it's not absorbent, so it doesn't absorb ear wax while the post is in the ear. This can lead to infection and/or skin irritation. It also has a natural curve to it, so you won't get straight ears unless you straighten it. Most people use duct tape to straighten it, apparently. 

2. I just use saline wound wash to clean the ears, and a basic triple antibiotic ointment afterwards.

3. Baby puppies we give 500mg Vit C twice daily, but once they're 12-13 weeks we up them to 1000mg twice a day. 

4. Blue paper shop towels are basically all the same, so brand doesn't really matter. 

5. The dog in the photo you linked has a pocket in that ear - very, very common, especially with inexperienced posters. The most important factor in preventing/eliminating pockets is to make sure when the post is being inserted, that you're stretching the ear up at the same time. This eliminates any "buckling" at the base of the ear for that crease to form in the first place.

And don't worry about asking questions, I'm happy to help! In fact, I offer free ear posting to anyone in my area, as long as they buy the supplies.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks 
The buckling is what I thought it was caused from. Did not see it when I was the main one doing the posting. Now that others are posting the ears starting to see it again. Will once again have to state how important it is to pull the ears up. 
Thanks for all the info. Will pass on this new knowledge to others at the clinic. 

BTW where is your area?


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

I'm located in central Iowa.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Sibe said:


> Spaying and neutering is not purely for cosmetic reasons. Very different.


It may not be cosmetic, but it IS for convenience.



Crantastic said:


> Where is that photo you posted on the last page from, Sibe? It's bad form to post something like that and not explain the context.


It's also bad form to take a picture that's not your own and post it without permission from the breeder/owner (in fact that's plagiarism).



Willowy said:


> OK, fine. So how's a hysterectomy like a body mod? I do know women who had hysterectomies for birth control (after tubal ligation failed. . .twice for one woman ).
> 
> When other reliable forms of birth control are available for dogs, we'll talk about the merits of each option. For now it's all we got.


Hysterectomy in humans is ONLY done when there is a threat to health and there is no other choice. Unlike what we do to our dogs, often at a very early age.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> It may not be cosmetic, but it IS for convenience.
> 
> It's also bad form to take a picture that's not your own and post it without permission from the breeder/owner (in fact that's plagiarism).


 Spay/neuter also has direct health benefits such as decreased or no risks of certain types of cancer (though can be detrimental if done too soon, such as greater risk of bone cancer).


Are all the pics posted from Petfinder in the Petfinder crush thread plagiarism? And in the "what's my dog's breed?" thread when people post random pics found on google of dogs of a certain breed to show resemblance?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

People should post their sources. Just because others may not, that doesn't make it okay. I know that I always link to the source or name the photographer when I post a pic that isn't mine (I always linked to the petfinder ads when I posted a "crush" in that thread, for example).

Regardless of where you got the photo, you plunked a pic of a sad-looking dog with ugly ears in a thread about cropping, with absolutely no context. It seemed like you were trying to make some kind of statement about how dogs look right after a crop, but that one badly-bred dog with a crop done by God knows who doesn't prove anything.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Sibe said:


> Spay/neuter also has direct health benefits such as decreased or no risks of certain types of cancer (though can be detrimental if done too soon, such as greater risk of bone cancer).
> 
> 
> Are all the pics posted from Petfinder in the Petfinder crush thread plagiarism? And in the "what's my dog's breed?" thread when people post random pics found on google of dogs of a certain breed to show resemblance?


Many people will argue spaying/neutering has direct health EFFECTS, not benefits. So that card won't work here.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Anyone care to share a pic of a well done fresh crop to show how good it looks? I'm being serious, I want to see, because that's the only fresh crop I've ever seen. He doesn't look "sad" to me, he looks like he's squinting from the sun in his face. Regardless, pic removed.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> I'm so tired of spaying/neutering being compared to cropping/docking. Not the same thing at all. There are a variety of reasons why people spay/neuter, and NONE of them are cosmetic. Either you don't think there's anything wrong with cropping or docking, or you do. Whether you or anyone else thinks a completely different procedure is wrong or not has nothing to do with it.
> 
> I'm not even _against_ cropping and docking and this crap drives me nuts. Stand behind what you believe or don't, stop dodging and deflecting.


Word. This whole argument makes me roll my eyes and I am not even against cropping and docking at all. You're not going to win anyone over wih that argument. It is NOT the same thing.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I wonder what the OP has decided on by now. 

I'm against cropping and docking, but since it's already outlawed in my country I don't have to stand up and do something about it anymore. It's been done. Cropping since 1996, docking since 2001. 

I love ears and tails on dogs, and to be frank, cropped ears look repulsive to me, even if done properly. 
I think ears on a Dobermann look beautiful. Like this dog. 








source


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

sizzledog said:


> kIMG_0362 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr


Love this picture. Her ears are turning out beautifully.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I still think it looks like a bad hound rather than a good Doberman.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Xeph said:


> I still think it looks like a bad hound rather than a good Doberman.


I agree. Crops _make_ the Doberman, IMO.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Tainted said:


> I agree. Crops _make_ the Doberman, IMO.


I disagree, a Dobermann is so much more than just the ears. I suppose it's a matter of what you're used to. But nevertheless, to each their own opinion.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

sizzledog, I LOVE Kaylee's crop. Beautiful, elegant. Love it!

I also love the shorter crops of the military Dobes I've seen


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## annadee (Aug 22, 2012)

I really want a doberman with natural ears and hopefully tail. I have no idea where to start looking for a breeder who doesn't crop and dock in Canada.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Might have to import


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

annadee said:


> I really want a doberman with natural ears and hopefully tail. I have no idea where to start looking for a breeder who doesn't crop and dock in Canada.


Somewhere else in this thread it is mentioned that a good option would be to search for a litter that's meant for Europe. I suppose that's where the odds will be most in your favor. Or import, like Xeph suggests.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Avie said:


> I disagree, a Dobermann is so much more than just the ears. I suppose it's a matter of what you're used to. But nevertheless, to each their own opinion.


Of course. But strictly going off looks, cropped/docked just completes the look of breed, for me. That's what I think of when I think "Doberman", and that look is what appeals to me most. I agree, everyone has their own tastes and opinions. Nothing at all wrong with that.


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## annadee (Aug 22, 2012)

Avie said:


> Somewhere else in this thread it is mentioned that a good option would be to search for a litter that's meant for Europe. I suppose that's where the odds will be most in your favor. Or import, like Xeph suggests.


Hmm, I was hoping that wouldn't be the case. I wish that cropping/docking being legal in Canada meant you would have a choice between either or. Seems like there's only ever one option, either only cropping/docking or only not cropping/docking.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

annadee said:


> Hmm, I was hoping that wouldn't be the case. I wish that cropping/docking being legal in Canada meant you would have a choice between either or. Seems like there's only ever one option, either only cropping/docking or only not cropping/docking.


The couple we got Mike from have always had Dobermanns. The man is old school and they currently have another cropped and docked Dobermann, an import from eastern Europe. As a certain saying goes over here: where there's a will, there's a way. 

If you really want an uncropped and undocked Dobermann, I'm sure you will be able to acquire one. It may take effort, but I'm sure it's not impossible.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Puppies have to be cropped and docked early. The breeder doesn't know which puppy is the keeper until (or shortly after) cropping and docking age. Breeders breed for themselves, not the public, so their desires come first.

It is easier to get an uncropped dobe than an undocked. Docking must be done by 3 days of age. No way for a breeder to know their pick at that age


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## annadee (Aug 22, 2012)

Avie said:


> The couple we got Mike from have always had Dobermanns. The man is old school and they currently have another cropped and docked Dobermann, an import from eastern Europe. As a certain saying goes over here: where there's a will, there's a way.
> 
> If you really want an uncropped and undocked Dobermann, I'm sure you will be able to acquire one. It may take effort, but I'm sure it's not impossible.


Yeah, I'm sure it's possible.  I'll probably end up importing from Europe. It's not that bad, my BF's mom imported a GSD from Germany and the pup was fine. The only part I'm a bit worried about is finding a breeder who you can trust 100% who lives so far away!! But I'm sure it can be done.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

annadee said:


> Yeah, I'm sure it's possible.  I'll probably end up importing from Europe. It's not that bad, my BF's mom imported a GSD from Germany and the pup was fine. The only part I'm a bit worried about is finding a breeder who you can trust 100% who lives so far away!! But I'm sure it can be done.


I'd search for a breeder that has experience with exporting, and possibly get in contact with other owners that have previously imported a pup (preferably from that breeder). You could also contact national breed clubs from overseas and have them help you out. I'm pretty sure you won't be the first person from North America seeking to acquire a pup from Europe. 
In any case, I wish you the best of luck.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Avie said:


> I think ears on a Dobermann look beautiful. Like this dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I personally dislike cropping enough that it drives me from ever wanting to own a cropped puppy because I don't want to do the ear care. However (to me) there is something "soft" about the expression of that uncropped dobe that I don't like. As a DOG I think it's lovely, but as a DOBE it just looks too soft and friendly (to me).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I wonder why nobody thinks Rotts look "soft" with their ears uncut? All in what you're used to seeing, I suppose.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think the head shape probably contributes. Dobes look sleeker and more refined, while rotties are blocky (all over, really, not just the head).


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I wonder why nobody thinks Rotts look "soft" with their ears uncut? All in what you're used to seeing, I suppose.


Nobody? I must have missed the unanimous agreement that Rotts have a hard expression. My own personal opinion on that is that (to me) Rotts have a softer expression than a cropped Dobe, tho not as soft as an uncropped Dobe. Perhaps it has something to do the the more pronounced brow and stop in the Rott as compared to the Dobe.
There are even dogs among my own breed who I feel have harder and softer expressions from each other, and a lot of that I think has to do with ear lift and head shape.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Tainted said:


> Love this picture. Her ears are turning out beautifully.


Thank you! When that photo was taken, I was not happy at all with how her ears were tipping in. Corrected it with the next posting though.... this is what her ears look like today:


kIMG_0867 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr

Putting her ears up again tonight. Sharing the progression to show the difference between a bad crop with bad posting, versus a good crop with good posting.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I still think it looks like a bad hound rather than a good Doberman.


Even if it looked like a good hound there is no comparison, I'm old school, a properly cropped dog is a thing of beauty.


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

sizzledog said:


> Thank you! When that photo was taken, I was not happy at all with how her ears were tipping in. Corrected it with the next posting though.... this is what her ears look like today:
> 
> 
> kIMG_0867 by sizzzle_dog, on Flickr
> ...


Even better! The length is perfect. I just love that refined, "finished" look a nice crop gives. She is lovely. _All_ of your Dobermans are.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curious, since I have never been show oriented was surprised when I saw the height of Dobe ears. Is there a shorter (maybe working dog) cut. Could a protection dog's ears be grabbed and hinder him. (not saying I would like to be grabbing) as I said just curious. I personally have never trained a Dobe with that kind of ear cut, all were shorter.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Curious, since I have never been show oriented was surprised when I saw the height of Dobe ears. Is there a shorter (maybe working dog) cut. Could a protection dog's ears be grabbed and hinder him. (not saying I would like to be grabbing) as I said just curious. I personally have never trained a Dobe with that kind of ear cut, all were shorter.


Sizzledog might have a different answer but for the owners at the clinic I work at they prefer a shorter crop. The longer the crop USUALLY the longer the posting. Most pet owners do not want to bother with the longer crop. 

I think for myself it is what I am used too. Grew up around Dobermans that had their tails docked and their ears cropped. I like the 'look of attention' that type portrays at the end of my driveway. I don't want some old soft hound dog greeting people. I was out here by myself with 2 kids while my husband was in Iraq for a year and half. With my Dobe never felt scared to be here without my hubby. My Doberman looks very intimidating at the end of our drive. That was what a Doberman was bred to do, look intimidating and help collect the taxes with the orginal breeder of this breed. I have gotten used to seeing Boxers and Great Danes with natural ears and now they look 'normal' to me. I am even starting to like to see a Rott with a long tail. For most dogs being used to what they were orginally bred for is no longer the case. Nowadays most dogs are just the family pet.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Curious, since I have never been show oriented was surprised when I saw the height of Dobe ears. Is there a shorter (maybe working dog) cut. Could a protection dog's ears be grabbed and hinder him. (not saying I would like to be grabbing) as I said just curious. I personally have never trained a Dobe with that kind of ear cut, all were shorter.


Yes, and a well done working or mid crop is a bit more my cup of tea, shorter posting time and less likely to pocket. Unfortunately it's even harder to find a vet that does the working/mid crops well.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Curious, since I have never been show oriented was surprised when I saw the height of Dobe ears. Is there a shorter (maybe working dog) cut. Could a protection dog's ears be grabbed and hinder him. (not saying I would like to be grabbing) as I said just curious. I personally have never trained a Dobe with that kind of ear cut, all were shorter.


There is a shorter crop, but like Carla said... hard to find a vet that can make that look good. I doubt the length of a crop really make a difference for ear-grabbing. My theory is that they were cropped so short back in the day because they didn't really have the means to make longer crops stand. I prefer long crops, but not outrageously long. My dogs' ears are my preference, but believe it or not.... some show breeders go longer. No thank you!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Keechak said:


> Nobody? I must have missed the unanimous agreement that Rotts have a hard expression.


I prefer Dobes uncropped, but um. I've never considered Rotts intimidating or scary looking dogs. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure I've said multiple times in various threads I consider them one of the SWEETER looking breeds of dogs. Nothing to do with the ears. The blocky dogs with wide mouths ALWAYS have that affect on me. Pits, Rotts, Bostons - whatever. Big head + Big Mouth = LOVE in my head. I got broken somewhere, with what I consider an intimidating looking dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> My dogs' ears are my preference, but believe it or not.... some show breeders go longer. No thank you!


I was not knocking preference at all cause that's personal choice and not to be trifled with. 

Wow if they go longer that's quite an ear full


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> I prefer Dobes uncropped, but um. I've never considered Rotts intimidating or scary looking dogs. As a matter of fact I'm pretty sure I've said multiple times in various threads I consider them one of the SWEETER looking breeds of dogs. Nothing to do with the ears. The blocky dogs with wide mouths ALWAYS have that affect on me. Pits, Rotts, Bostons - whatever. Big head + Big Mouth = LOVE in my head. I got broken somewhere, with what I consider an intimidating looking dog.


 Hehe, I don't think so either. . .I think they look like big goofs, because they usually are. But people cross the street and grab their children when we walk by, so. . .I guess most people think they look scary? IDK. If you have a cropped Dobe they do the same, or even a cropped Boxer, but not usually for an uncropped Dobe, and definitely never for an uncropped Boxer.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Hehe, I don't think so either. . .I think they look like big goofs, because they usually are. But people cross the street and grab their children when we walk by, so. . .I guess most people think they look scary? IDK. If you have a cropped Dobe they do the same, or even a cropped Boxer, but not usually for an uncropped Dobe, and definitely never for an uncropped Boxer.


Honestly, it's the smile. And I'll admit I like the look of uncropped Dobes probably in part because I like black and tan hounds, but I *don't* want to deal with hound personality. So I gravitate toward uncropped dobes and gordon setters pretty hard. And I would give my eyeteeth for a Rott, just in general, but because I tend to be kind of... antisocial (read anxious) myself, the dog's socialization would probably not be what it would need to be for a rott to shine and I don't want to do that to a breed I love.


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