# Intact male dogs are so annoying!



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

It all started when I brought my two younger dogs, Kechara and Hawkeye, over to a friend's house who has Siberian Huskys. Two of her females were in heat and when I went into the house I put my two dogs in the empty kennel next to one of the in heat females.

Then the next day I brought my same two dogs over to another friend's house who has two intact male daschunds and an intact male sheltie. and well I guess the scent of the two female huskys had stuck to my dogs because one of the daschunds and the sheltie would not leave my little Aussie girl Kechara alone. they were constantly trying to mount her. They left Hawkeye alone I guess because they could tell he was a male.

I even tryed putting Kechara up on the couch by me but the sheltie jumped up by us and harrassed my dog and the daschund started trying to hump my arm.

gah!! Intact male dogs are so annoying!!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Keechak said:


> Intact male dogs are so annoying!!


It's not just dogs.


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

You should see how they act at bars after a few drinks!


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

I wouldnt say its just intact males, but lack of training on the dogs aswell.

My dog is intact, and if I told him to "leave it" then he would. he is trained. and not a annoying intact male dog.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree Tankstar, my intact male knows better then to play that game. "leave it" means just that. Training would certainly help. some dogs are worse then others though. I have one male that is really sweet and listens to me 100% of the time. The other has rocks in his head and is listening up to about 92% of the time.  Darn Boys. lol


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

that's the problem, people with intact males don't devote the time to train them and make sure they act suitable! There was an adult intact male who wouldn't leave my little beagle alone, and he attacked another dog and had to leave, and to beat it all the whole time his dog was harrassing my dog he was on top of the picnick table with his girlfriend kissing. Apparently dogs do take on the personality of their owners!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Actually, I've noticed more of a humping problem with neutered boys. My males are intact and well behaved. (well except Trey, who is the only neutered male dog I've ever had)


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It's not just dogs.


Couldn't have said it better myself! I SOOOO agree.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

Eddie was pretty annoying...we didn't have a problem with mounting with him...it was just his general attitude...like he was the "big, tough guy" around the house. He was very stubborn and temperamental...It seemed like he'd TRY to pick fights with Uallis. He was neutered in June...he doesn't act that way anymore.  My vet calls neutering "brain surgery". lol


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself! I SOOOO agree.


So who's responsible for training the intact people-puppies, and why are they allowed to do such a poor job of it?

j/k


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Bearjing said:


> You should see how they act at bars after a few drinks!


ROFL! OMG, you got me going!


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

poodleholic said:


> ROFL! OMG, you got me going!


ROFL

But truthfully my intact males did not behave that way because they were *TA DAH!* trained. But, I must mention two possibilities here. 1. The mounting was dominance related rather than sexual. 2. Since I didn't see anything about the OPs bitch being spayed or her age (forgive me if I missed either), possibly she's going into heat herself.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Hallie said:


> that's the problem, people with intact males don't devote the time to train them and make sure they act suitable!


The generalizations in this thread are frustrating to those of us who have intact dogs that are trained to behave themselves.

One night when I was at agility class with Viggo (who is intact, and an experienced stud dog and who is not allowed to be obnoxious), an intact Portuguese Water Dog was being very aggressive towards him. Because he is a good boy, he ignored it and focused on me. I have TAUGHT him to do this. The woman kept apologizing, saying, "I'm sorry, he is intact." I finally turned to her and said, "So is mine, and I don't allow him to act like a jerk. I've taught him manners." 

That is the difference. Please don't lump all intact dogs into the "bad" category.


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## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

I have 3 males, 2 altered and 1 intact. The 2 neutered boys do the humping thing on the spayed females now and then and I have to get on them about that. My 1 intact guy doesn't and never has. He didn't even acknowledge an in heat female I recently fostered for one week. I dunno 'bout that boy...

Jihad
and the pound puppy crew.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

wabanafcr said:


> The generalizations in this thread are frustrating to those of us who have intact dogs that are trained to behave themselves.
> 
> One night when I was at agility class with Viggo (who is intact, and an experienced stud dog and who is not allowed to be obnoxious), an intact Portuguese Water Dog was being very aggressive towards him. Because he is a good boy, he ignored it and focused on me. I have TAUGHT him to do this. The woman kept apologizing, saying, "I'm sorry, he is intact." I finally turned to her and said, "So is mine, and I don't allow him to act like a jerk. I've taught him manners."
> 
> That is the difference. Please don't lump all intact dogs into the "bad" category.



I totally agree as I see it the problem is that many people with intact dogs think that the behaviors they see are just part of having an intact male when they are really nothing more than training issues. 

I have three intact males here and none of them mark or hump or have any of the other behaviors associated with intact males.... 

if people would just train their dogs.... 
s


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

wabanafcr said:


> I finally turned to her and said, "So is mine, and I don't allow him to act like a jerk. I've taught him manners."


I'm glad you said this to her: People sometimes need to see that although they make excuses, they really don't *have* a good excuse at all.

Personally, I think it's a rare dog that cannot be trained to act nicely if the owner makes it their business to see to it that it happens. Specific breeds, specific dogs, specific sexes - they all tend toward harder in one way and easier in another, but if the owner decides to take the responsibility for teaching the dog, it can pretty much always be done.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I agree that intact males can be trained to behave. Its like how people assume stallions are out of control. If you train them though they can behave. I've known several stallions who could be walked by a mare in season and would ignore her if told to do so. Same for intact male dogs.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Tankstar said:


> I wouldnt say its just intact males, but lack of training on the dogs aswell.
> 
> My dog is intact, and if I told him to "leave it" then he would. he is trained. and not a annoying intact male dog.



Ah! But you only have ONE intact male  That makes all the difference! Many behavioral issues attributed to being intact (leg humping, for instance) are actually just lack of training - none of my intact boys have bad manners ... with people! They're all well behaved pleasures to walk, train, hunt, and if applicaple, show. One is even unusually tractable and eager to please for a Beagle, but get him together with other intact males and he is a different dog. Unmanageable and dominant. Intact boys with the best temperament and obedience/manners training will mark territory, show increased aggression around other entire males, and can sometimes be harder to handle from a training standopint. If one never meets another intact boy or encounters a bitch in heat (especially after he's been bred), then there is almost no difference between an intact & neutered male who is well trained and properly raised. When you bring pack dynamics into it, behavior can change substantially. With bitches in full blown heat and other males around, the boy dog's brain is no longer int heir head but has dropped down to their two ... well, you know  LOL



> My vet calls neutering "brain surgery". lol



ROFL!!! I've never heard neutering described so well


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Intact boys with the best temperament and obedience/manners training will mark territory, show increased aggression around other entire males, and can sometimes be harder to handle from a training standopint. If one never meets another intact boy or encounters a bitch in heat (especially after he's been bred), then there is almost no difference between an intact & neutered male who is well trained and properly raised. When you bring pack dynamics into it, behavior can change substantially. With bitches in full blown heat and other males around, the boy dog's brain is no longer int heir head but has dropped down to their two ... well, you know  LOL


UrbanBeagle, I would like your opinion on this.... Is there any possibility that this is something that varies from breed to breed, and that Beagles are more prone to it than some other breeds? I have a friend with 3 (now retired) show beagles. They are all girls, so this thread doesn't really apply but... while they are certainly trained, and are real joys generally, the moment they see some little animal run by, ALL BETS ARE OFF. Those girls just have such an incredible drive to chase, and it seems no amount of training could ever contain it. Could it be that beagles are just prone to being more instinct driven generally than some other breeds?


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I think it is all well and good if people are able to deal with and train an intact male. For me though, Eddie was ill tempered...with just a general bossy, sassy attitude. I had no reason to keep him intact...I was just waiting for him to reach maturity. He's just so much easier to be around now...the difference is amazing. What I DON'T like is that he isn't as playful now as he was. I can train my dogs with basic obedience and they are fairly well mannered. But with the added stubbornness that seems, in my experience, to go along with an intact dog...its a little much for me and doesn't seem worth the effort as I have no need to keep them intact past maturity.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Ah! But you only have ONE intact male That makes all the difference! Many behavioral issues attributed to being intact (leg humping, for instance) are actually just lack of training - none of my intact boys have bad manners ... with people! They're all well behaved pleasures to walk, train, hunt, and if applicaple, show. One is even unusually tractable and eager to please for a Beagle, but get him together with other intact males and he is a different dog. Unmanageable and dominant. Intact boys with the best temperament and obedience/manners training will mark territory, show increased aggression around other entire males, and can sometimes be harder to handle from a training standopint. If one never meets another intact boy or encounters a bitch in heat (especially after he's been bred), then there is almost no difference between an intact & neutered male who is well trained and properly raised. When you bring pack dynamics into it, behavior can change substantially. With bitches in full blown heat and other males around, the boy dog's brain is no longer int heir head but has dropped down to their two ... well, you know


Maybe this is true with your dogs, but not with mine. I can run my boys together even with a bitch in heat. Here are some pics of three of them--Viggo, who was 4 1/2 and had sired 6 litters by the time this was taken; Basil, who was 2 and in the terrible twos stage of teenage boy hormones; and Jack, who was 8 months old. I had two bitches at home in standing heat, crated above where the boys' crates are (up high enough so the boys can't reach them), and still can run them together. 

I've also asked at least two of my males to ignore a bitch in season because I needed them to get some ducks from a chilly pond. And I certainly won't allow them to be idiots at dog shows--no marking, no posturing--and there are in season girls all over the place at those. Again, such generalizations are not fair to those of us with intact males that have been taught to behave in these situations. 

Maybe there is a breed difference, but sporting dogs in general have to be able to work together no matter what, and Flatcoats are known for this type of temperament. A friend of mine has photos of 8 adult, experienced, intact Flatcoats having a romp together after a dog show. I would have thought that Beagles would be the same, since they have to work in pack situations...

The boys, having a grand old time, on our property, with Cakey and Rosie inside smelling quite inviting:


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I also think it depends on the breed. 

I figure I'll let my (future) male dogs remain intact unless they abuse the privilege.....and I have met MANY male dogs who definitely abused the privilege, LOL. Moose did---he was being a real jerk with the other dogs, and getting a little too bossy in general. He's a lot better now. Brain surgery, indeed!


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

You have beautiful dogs, Wabanafcr.

----


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I have three intact boys two adolescents over 18 mos. and one older male who is 8 all are intact and all get along..... not to mention two intact girls who can never seem to manage coming into season at the same time ..... 

my boys are never aggressive to each other.... they don't hump each other and they don't MARK anything... because they know that I would murder them.... 

a friend with beagles commented that they are "doggier" dogs and hounds in general are "doggier" and maybe that is the difference.... 

but my experience with my breeds is that it is up to the owners to teach them what is and is not acceptable..... when girls are in season and when they are not... it doesn't matter. 
s


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

wabanafcr said:


> Maybe there is a breed difference, but sporting dogs in general have to be able to work together no matter what, and Flatcoats are known for this type of temperament. A friend of mine has photos of 8 adult, experienced, intact Flatcoats having a romp together after a dog show. I would have thought that Beagles would be the same, since they have to work in pack situations...


I have to agree that there is a breed difference. My male is very well mannered. He doesn't hump, roam, or go crazy around in heat bitches. And as a show dog he has been around quite a few bitches in het. But I would still never take the chance of running him with other intact males. 

Male dog aggression has been bred into dobermans. I would honestly be stupid to ignore it. While Dusk is very mellow, he is still a male doberman. I just wouldn't take the chance. 

But then again, Dobermans are not pack dogs.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Ah! But you only have ONE intact male  That makes all the difference! Many behavioral issues attributed to being intact (leg humping, for instance) are actually just lack of training - none of my intact boys have bad manners ... with people! They're all well behaved pleasures to walk, train, hunt, and if applicaple, show. One is even unusually tractable and eager to please for a Beagle, but get him together with other intact males and he is a different dog. Unmanageable and dominant. Intact boys with the best temperament and obedience/manners training will mark territory, show increased aggression around other entire males, and can sometimes be harder to handle from a training standopint. If one never meets another intact boy or encounters a bitch in heat (especially after he's been bred), then there is almost no difference between an intact & neutered male who is well trained and properly raised. When you bring pack dynamics into it, behavior can change substantially. With bitches in full blown heat and other males around, the boy dog's brain is no longer int heir head but has dropped down to their two ... well, you know  LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True I dont have multiple dogs. I have one. But we go to the dog park 5-7 days a week. have many doggy friends that are intact male and female. People with females wills till come with them in heat. My dog doesnt bother with them and only time he ever even tried anything I gave a quick "uh uh" noise and told him to come, and he did. and we walked away. 

The group of dogs I hang out with daily has 4 or 5 including my dog males intact, ranging from bull dog, chihuahuah, and labs. then females, border collies, mixed breed and a irish wolfhound. No issues have ever broke out with them all.

I have found fixed males tend to pick ont he neteured males much more and nit pick fights with them. that is the only time Blaze becomes "bossy" which i dont blame him, I wouldnt want another dog humping me that I dont know wither. in those situations, we move on and walk away so no issue occours. 

Just the other day I as with a women and my friend the women had a female in heat, and myf riend has the bull dog and chihuahua intacts males. all 4 were happy as clams playing then ignoring each other and sniffing grass,trees ect. 

Blaze doesnt mark, unless its outside on trees or grass.


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## Twinney (Nov 4, 2007)

I think alot of it depends on the training, and the time when neutered. Fang was neutered at six years old.
And anything six inches above the ground should be marked. 

He's never been very nutso around bitches in heat though.. I don't know if that's changed any, as my girls are both spayed now...



> I've also asked at least two of my males to ignore a bitch in season because I needed them to get some ducks from a chilly pond. And I certainly won't allow them to be idiots at dog shows--no marking, no posturing--and there are in season girls all over the place at those. Again, such generalizations are not fair to those of us with intact males that have been taught to behave in these situations.


Aren't girls in season (I'm talking field trials and hunt tests) scratched, for those with untrained males?


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Twinney said:


> Aren't girls in season (I'm talking field trials and hunt tests) scratched, for those with untrained males?


Any type of AKC performance event does not allow bitches in season. They are allowed to show in conformation, and the Flatcoat Society allows them in their working tests, but they have to run last.

The retrieving stuff I was mentioning was not a test or trial.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Bearjing said:


> UrbanBeagle, I would like your opinion on this.... Is there any possibility that this is something that varies from breed to breed, and that Beagles are more prone to it than some other breeds? I have a friend with 3 (now retired) show beagles. They are all girls, so this thread doesn't really apply but... while they are certainly trained, and are real joys generally, the moment they see some little animal run by, ALL BETS ARE OFF. Those girls just have such an incredible drive to chase, and it seems no amount of training could ever contain it. Could it be that beagles are just prone to being more instinct driven generally than some other breeds?



Beagles are more instinct driven, especially in regards to prey drive - anything moving is fair game. In general, Beagles tend to be very ... motivated ... about breeding, lol. That being said, they are usually very happy go lucky with each other and I don't know of too many breeds where you can have 12 intact dogs all together safely or around newborn whelps, etc. In that respect, they're very good with each other, very pack oriented. They are also pinheads when it comes to dealing with each other around intact bitches ... I can pen all my girls together, in heat or not, without a second thought. When my girls are in season, all the males must be seperated from each other 24/7. They're normally very good about housetraining, but if I have one about to come in, I know to watch her by the pee puddles  
I have tried to breed a GSD once and the reaction to breeding was polar opposites of my oversexed Beagles. The stud owner had 3 intact males (2 Sheps & 1 Lab) housed together, never needed to be seperated. But then the stud dog was only mildly enthusiastic about breeding and my bitch wanted no part of it. She told him "NO" and the stud was just like "OK". lol That would never happen with a Beagle  lol



> my boys are never aggressive to each other.... they don't hump each other and they don't MARK anything... because they know that I would murder them....
> 
> a friend with beagles commented that they are "doggier" dogs and hounds in general are "doggier" and maybe that is the difference....



Not using breed to excuse bad behavior, and if I have one that is aggro and is a fight picker, they are OUT. Mine are very placid 99& of the time, but when girls are in heat, all bets are off. I have to agree I think the hound breeds, especially Beagles, are just very "doggy" and rough around the edges. They are sweet dogs but definitely are very instinct motivated. Probably why they are so food obsessed!


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

wabanafcr said:


> The generalizations in this thread are frustrating to those of us who have intact dogs that are trained to behave themselves.
> 
> One night when I was at agility class with Viggo (who is intact, and an experienced stud dog and who is not allowed to be obnoxious), an intact Portuguese Water Dog was being very aggressive towards him. Because he is a good boy, he ignored it and focused on me. I have TAUGHT him to do this. The woman kept apologizing, saying, "I'm sorry, he is intact." I finally turned to her and said, "So is mine, and I don't allow him to act like a jerk. I've taught him manners."
> 
> That is the difference. Please don't lump all intact dogs into the "bad" category.


I have two intact males. My older male has been bred before. They also have a buddy, another smooth male that's intact. I've never had a problem with any of them. They get along, and my older male 'teaches' the younger one how to behave.

My older male (my younger one is learning) knows how to leave it, and knows that such behaviors as humping, etc won't be tolerated.

My older male also competes in obedience. I remember when we were doing our down stays he was next to a huge, (can't remember what breed, but BIG) rowdy, intact male that was seriously looking for trouble. in fact, there were three intact males all in a row) Now my Mr D isn't a pushover, he won't start anything but if someone jumps him he'll defend himself. But he calmly ignored the threats and teasing of the big bully next door and pulled through with a 192.5 (first time in the obedience ring)

They can be trained and well mannered. I don't tolerate anything less out of my dogs.

We also have three intact bitches. Never had any problems there either.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Yes I should have mentioned the ages of the dogs. my girl is spayed and she is 7 years old and really gives the boys a nip if they try anything with her she has been around thoughs two boys since they were 3 months old. but they had NEVER been like that with her. the sheltie was constantly sticking his tail in the air wagging it and trying to lick her "lady parts" and trying to mount and the daschund was rolling on the floor by her feet licking her mouth and also trying to mount. the two males are both 3 year olds. my boy Hawkeye is intact too but he is still really young 6 months so I'm not sure when if at all I may start having issues with him since I haven't had an intact male since I was 5 years old so I don't really remember him lol. 

Since I don't have much experiance with owning an intact male it's all a mystery and a fun one at that. Hawkeye is definatly a lover and has never picked a fight or growled at anyone. because he is intact I never trust him off leash except in our own yard.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I don't have a problem with my intact male, all I have to do is snap my fingers and he will stop. That is if he starts to get carried away with the other dogs whom are both spayed/neutered and he would need a step stool!


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## Hiaja (Aug 15, 2008)

ROFLOL is THAT why they were acting so studly?

But I agree intacked male dogs are VERY bothersome. I don't see the point! Your not going to show him, your not going to breed him (thankfully -there are too many dogs in the world as it is!) WHY ARE THEY STILL INTACKED!!!!! And it's not about you owners, by taking away your dogs 'manhood' it's NOT going to somehow take yours away, or change you dog, seriously, everyone would be happy all around...at least I would


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Actually, several people on this forum with intact dogs DO show them, so they have to remain intact. Ugh... just something I get to look forward to in the distant future when I decide I'm ready to show corgis lol...


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Hiaja said:


> ROFLOL is THAT why they were acting so studly?
> 
> But I agree intacked male dogs are VERY bothersome. I don't see the point! Your not going to show him, your not going to breed him (thankfully -there are too many dogs in the world as it is!) WHY ARE THEY STILL INTACKED!!!!! And it's not about you owners, by taking away your dogs 'manhood' it's NOT going to somehow take yours away, or change you dog, seriously, everyone would be happy all around...at least I would


I keep him intact as I dont see the big deal in fixing him, not to mention he is a collie so has issues with being put under, and not to mention he has a heart proble, again could cause problem going under.


My dog behaves, never ever has a issue with other dogs (he goes tot he dog park almost every day of the week). if he even attamepts to hump a male, all I have to do is call him over, he obeys, he is TRAINED> 

I'm a girl, so it has nothing at all to do with my manhood. it has everything to do with that I dont find the huge point in fixing somthing that aint broken. he is never left alone except int he back yard, with no way to get out. he listens, doesnt start anything with other dogs, is actually very submissive. So what difference would it make for you if I fixed him now, at almost 6 years old?


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

What really urked me when I adopted Donatello was my mother's first verbal concern, "_He better not hike his leg on the furniture and he better not hump anything_!" 

I gave her this look: -.-

I said, "_Seriously, getting him neutered is not going to keep him from 'hiking his leg on the furniture'._" Some things just can't be helped. 

We once had an outside dog, un-neutered- Well, it wasn't our dog but my mother's ex-boyfriend's; He not once "humped" any of us, nor the spayed border collie that he roamed the country with. 

It wouldn't bother me to keep an un-neutered dog, because I'm confident to say I'd teach the dog to have enough control to "leave it", as someone else taught their male, I just don't the possibility of the dog having temperament issues. My step-mother's dog, before he was neutered, was a living nightmare to be around! Shortly after he was fixed, VOILA! No more issues!


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## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

Yes, they are annoying and yes training would certainly help....I'm talking about my brother's pug, Hunter. I love him to death (my brother and Hunter), but Hunter is intact and whenever they come to visit, all he does is mark everything....My brother and his family just thinks it's funny! I really get tired of trying to explain to him that things would get better with training and/or neutering, but it falls on deaf ears. Also, I get the response, "I might want to breed him"....duh....I do love Hunter, but he really is not the best bred pug and I look at my brother as like most BYB's. Well, the last straw was this Christmas, Hunter came in the house and marked Stella in the face!!!
Stella couldn't believe it, either! She just stood there looking at me like "WHAT THE HECK JUST HAPPENED?" Geesh, I really wish they would do something with him.........


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

StellaLucyDesi said:


> Yes, they are annoying and yes training would certainly help....I'm talking about my brother's pug, Hunter. I love him to death (my brother and Hunter), but Hunter is intact and whenever they come to visit, all he does is mark everything....My brother and his family just thinks it's funny! I really get tired of trying to explain to him that things would get better with training and/or neutering, but it falls on deaf ears. Also, I get the response, "I might want to breed him"....duh....I do love Hunter, but he really is not the best bred pug and I look at my brother as like most BYB's. Well, the last straw was this Christmas, Hunter came in the house and marked Stella in the face!!!
> Stella couldn't believe it, either! She just stood there looking at me like "WHAT THE HECK JUST HAPPENED?" Geesh, I really wish they would do something with him.........


The dog is untrained. thats all there is to it.

My dog would never ever mark int he house, any one else house,in a cottage, in a store ect.

Just today in the pet store, a dog hiked his leg on a support beam. Blaze and I walked past before the owner could clean it, Blaze smelled it and lookeed at me like "WTF we are INDOORS, you should not pee inside" lol.

Training is key. IMO a dog who is fixed or not is not the issue, lack of training is. 

No one ever belives he is intact until I tell them. even at the dog park. just the other day the dog walker said she would not walk Marty (a golden ret) anymore unless he gets fixed. he is VERY agressive, doesnt listen, humps every one. she then said no intact animal should be in here. I piped up and sai, so Blaze shouldnt be either? She said offcourse Blaze can be here, then I told her he was intact. and she was very impressed with that. in the 3 years I have known her she has never seen a issue with my dog and any other dog, not to make him sound like a saint or anything, but only fights he has been in are provoked by other dogs.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

Yes, I agree! Definitely needs trained! Great little dog, too, but like I said, it all falls on deaf ears whenever I mention training, etc. I believe they think I am the "Crazy Dog Lady" that belongs to forums, takes training classes, feeds good food (they feed dog chow...I know they don't have much money but they won't listen to my logic about food comparisons...topic for another thread "sigh"). Oh, well, I only see them about three times a year....sad, tho' on all counts.


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## Hiaja (Aug 15, 2008)

Tankstar said:


> I keep him intact as I dont see the big deal in fixing him, not to mention he is a collie so has issues with being put under, and not to mention he has a heart proble, again could cause problem going under.
> 
> 
> My dog behaves, never ever has a issue with other dogs (he goes tot he dog park almost every day of the week). if he even attamepts to hump a male, all I have to do is call him over, he obeys, he is TRAINED>
> ...


I agree if your going to train your dog and not let the intacked male start to control your life, leave them intack. But if not why deal with the hassle? 

I just want to add my previous comment deals with personal experiences.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Hiaja said:


> I agree if your going to train your dog and not let the intacked male start to control your life, leave them intack. But if not why deal with the hassle?
> 
> I just want to add my previous comment deals with personal experiences.


Its no hassle to me at all. I have no problem dealing with him. he is a very easy going dog. does as I ask. I wouldnt ever allow any dog to control my life, plain and simple. dogs are dogs, and such need to be trained. I got this dog when I was 17. And even then I knew that I would need to work alot with him to make him a good companion. I worked my ass off with this dog all summer long, and at 17, summer ment, road trips, parties, camping. I didnt go any where with out the dog. I guess I was just striving to be a good dog owner and have a dog I can take places with out worrying about issues.

Im sorry you have had bad experiences. I know tons of intactdogs, lots of males, even at the dog park. all very well controled. no territory issues at all, all get along wonderfuly, have known each other for years.

If you ever come to the toronto area, I would be glad to show you a well trained intact dog lol.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> that's the problem, people with intact males don't devote the time to train them and make sure they act suitable!



You cannot train instinct out of an animal 

My intact boys ARE well trained & behaved, but when you bring in multiple intact dogs and bitches into the scenario you're now dealing with hormones that can and will override training. The instinct to mate is stronger than their desire to please the owner ... If you contain intact boys in a room with an in season bitch they you can expect the male to pester and annoy the bitch until she either gives in or attempts to rip him a new one 

At the moment, we have one or more girls about to come in heat ... Their urine has a fan club & I can see things getting a bit tense. Normally placid males are starting their nonsense with hackles raised, growling, posturing with each other. The boys are a bit more on edge and barkier. They do quiet when I correct them but this behavior will not subside until the girl(s) are out of heat. I go so far as to tranquilize my intact males the first week of the cycle, tensions can get so high. They DO harass not only the bitches but seem to be just as attracted to our neutered male  They pester him to no end - pick his fur, lick his ears, attempt to mount, even go so far as guarding him from the other boys! Ugh. Their brain is dangling between their legs when the girls are in season, and nothing can bring them to their senses but good old fashioned "happy pills" and lockdown in their crates ... I cannot kennel them - they make too much of a ruckus even tho they are normally quiet and content in their kennels. They are just Jeckyl/Hyde for most of the heat cycle, but you cannot blame them, it's not a training or owner problem. It's natural animal instinct.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Hiaja said:


> ROFLOL is THAT why they were acting so studly?
> 
> But I agree intacked male dogs are VERY bothersome. I don't see the point! Your not going to show him, your not going to breed him (thankfully -there are too many dogs in the world as it is!) WHY ARE THEY STILL INTACKED!!!!! And it's not about you owners, by taking away your dogs 'manhood' it's NOT going to somehow take yours away, or change you dog, seriously, everyone would be happy all around...at least I would


They are never bothersome to me. A dog being as they were born. I'm also going to yes, keep showing. Regardless mine are still intact as I have no need to put them through an unnecessary surgery or "fix" something that isn't broken. Also I am a female human, don't have any "manhood". I will neuter for a health reason if it arises, not "just because". In some countries dogs are rarely neutered yet they are not bothersome to most anyone. They are no more bothersome then the average neutered male. These dogs are around other intact males (and females) all the time, without accidental litters (shame there are so many here) nor with fights breaking out. I think everyone has a right to make the choice for themselves, you would be happy, I'm just as happy with intact males. They should have no bearing on another persons happiness, whether they are intact or altered. Personally I do see the point in me altering a perfectly normal and healthy dog.


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## Blizzard (Jan 18, 2009)

My male dog Blizzard is still intact but he is trained and i always keep him under control. Some intact males can be bothersome if their owners don'r control them.


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## Moonshadow (Nov 9, 2008)

I never have issues with my males when I have bitches in season. Perhaps many of us who show don't have problems because our dogs are out around bitches in season and well socialized from the start. My boys are crated next to my bitches in season, ride in the same van to shows with them and are exposed to tons of them at shows right from the start. Perhaps if they weren't out and weren't trained and didn't come to understand that it's the same as them wanting to grab the little kid's hotdog at a show....it's tempting and looks great but unless Mom says you can have it you can't!

They do go through the brainless stage from around 9 months to maybe 1 1/2. Sometimes at that point they will get side tracked in the ring if there are a ton of bitches around who are ready to be bred but never do they get aggressive or uncontrolable...it's just not allowed. The biggest problem I had was my one boy started crying in the ring because every collie bitch that was there was ready to be bred. I had to show him backwards when we went back in for BOV so he could see winners bitch. The judge put him over the specials for the breed...as long as he could see her he was ok and stopped the crying. But...he was also just a year old at the time. Teenage boys can get goofy but if you keep taking them out and getting them used to things it's not a problem. 

I can take my bitches in season out to potty if my boys are in the yard. Of course I'm there with them to control things but as long as I tell them no they are able to allow her to potty and then go back in the house. There aren't fights. Well trained, well socialized dogs should be able to handle situations like this. 

As far as tranquilizing males because there are bitches in season around....that's just insane. Never in my life have I ever heard of a breeder tranquilizing their boys because they can't handle them when the bitches are in season. To each their own I guess.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Moonshadow said:


> I never have issues with my males when I have bitches in season. Perhaps many of us who show don't have problems because our dogs are out around bitches in season and well socialized from the start. My boys are crated next to my bitches in season, ride in the same van to shows with them and are exposed to tons of them at shows right from the start. Perhaps if they weren't out and weren't trained and didn't come to understand that it's the same as them wanting to grab the little kid's hotdog at a show....it's tempting and looks great but unless Mom says you can have it you can't!


Ditto. Mine are all crated in the same room at night, and the worst that it gets is a couple of nights when the boy's choir serenades the object of their desire. There is no aggression, or on-their-toes type of behavior. My experienced sire may skip a meal or two when the time is right, but overall, they are good, good boys.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Spicy1_VV said:


> They are never bothersome to me. A dog being as they were born. I'm also going to yes, keep showing. Regardless mine are still intact as I have no need to put them through an unnecessary surgery or "fix" something that isn't broken. Also I am a female human, don't have any "manhood". I will neuter for a health reason if it arises, not "just because". In some countries dogs are rarely neutered yet they are not bothersome to most anyone. They are no more bothersome then the average neutered male.



I couldn't agree more. Being intact is not a disease, nor does it somehow mean that all un neutered dogs (or bitches!) will be bred. I have quite a few intact dogs of both sexes who are not intended for breeding purposes, just good hounds that contribute to the pack. None of them have ever had an accidental litter. 

I'm also a female and that old notion that owners refuse to neuter dogs for the sake of their own manhood is one that gets me PO'd, for obvious reasons  Nothing for me to show off. I just don't want internal organs removed from my animals unless it's absolutely necessary for health related reasons. And since neutering boys eliminates the minute risk of testicular cancer but drastically increases the risk of prostate cancer, osteosarcoma, cardiac tumors, thyroid disease ... I weighed the risks vs. benefits and chose to let them remain entire. 

Because yeah, as stupid as they can get around in heat bitches, human men are worse all year round and I don't see anyone chasing them around threatening to cut their balls off 



Moonshadow said:


> I never have issues with my males when I have bitches in season. Perhaps many of us who show don't have problems because our dogs are out around bitches in season and well socialized from the start.
> 
> As far as tranquilizing males because there are bitches in season around....that's just insane. Never in my life have I ever heard of a breeder tranquilizing their boys because they can't handle them when the bitches are in season. To each their own I guess.



Well, hate to shoot your theory out of the water but I have two show champion dogs, one of which is a male. 

And yes, I have 5 intact males so they do have to be sedated when a bitch in in full blown heat. It always happens that 2+ girls come in during the same time, so not only do we have that stressor, but we have males of similar ages vying for dominance with each other and generally acting like their brains are in their balls. For everyone's peace of mind, I start them on Stress Free Calmplex as soon as I note bitches are in season. Takes the edge off.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

UrbanBeagles said:


> I couldn't agree more. Being intact is not a disease, nor does it somehow mean that all un neutered dogs (or bitches!) will be bred. I have quite a few intact dogs of both sexes who are not intended for breeding purposes, just good hounds that contribute to the pack. None of them have ever had an accidental litter.
> 
> I'm also a female and that old notion that owners refuse to neuter dogs for the sake of their own manhood is one that gets me PO'd, for obvious reasons  Nothing for me to show off.


Exactly. 

Its so funny when Im at the dog park. and people complain about dogs who are intact (since blaze has so much hair you cant see that he is not "fixed". They talk about how agressive male dogs get and shouldnt be allowed down here. I always pipe up and laugh, when asked I say "You see my dog, running with your dog, playing, he is intact. Doesnt look to agressive to me" That shuts them up.

I hate the old "You only keep them intact to keep your man hood in check" thing. so what does that say about me, a tiny 5'2 115lbs girl lol. Im tiny and a girl, what man hod am I trying to show off.

I have never had a litter and wont. i can handle my dog is a awsome dog. if you can handle them, go for it.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Spicy1_VV said:


> They are never bothersome to me. A dog being as they were born. I'm also going to yes, keep showing. Regardless mine are still intact as I have no need to put them through an unnecessary surgery or "fix" something that isn't broken. Also I am a female human, don't have any "manhood". I will neuter for a health reason if it arises, not "just because". In some countries dogs are rarely neutered yet they are not bothersome to most anyone. They are no more bothersome then the average neutered male. These dogs are around other intact males (and females) all the time, without accidental litters (shame there are so many here) nor with fights breaking out. I think everyone has a right to make the choice for themselves, you would be happy, I'm just as happy with intact males. They should have no bearing on another persons happiness, whether they are intact or altered. Personally I do see the point in me altering a perfectly normal and healthy dog.


I agree 100%.


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## Moonshadow (Nov 9, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Well, hate to shoot your theory out of the water but I have two show champion dogs, one of which is a male.
> 
> And yes, I have 5 intact males so they do have to be sedated when a bitch in in full blown heat. It always happens that 2+ girls come in during the same time, so not only do we have that stressor, but we have males of similar ages vying for dominance with each other and generally acting like their brains are in their balls. For everyone's peace of mind, I start them on Stress Free Calmplex as soon as I note bitches are in season. Takes the edge off.



Well I guess it depends on the person. Those of us who actually show our dogs to their championships and mold them into well behaved, well socialized dogs are more likely to be able to handle them throughout their lives then say someone who goes out and buys a champion or two to breed. Yes some are more of a challange than others (but in my opinion they are more fun) and take a bit longer to mature into good dogs but eventually they do.

Right now I own 9 AKC Champions, one of whom is a ROM sire (and I also have a ROM dam). I have been in dogs for my entire life, was co-breeder of my first champion at age 7 and then he became my Jrs dog. I'm sorry but I just can not understand why dogs would need to be tranquilized if they are properly socialized, well adjusted animals. An experienced stud may get a bit off when a bitch is ready to be bred and the boys may get goofy and sing and howl to the bitches but tranquilizers? Never. While I have had collies for the most part I've also had a few other breeds here and there and never a problem.

One bitch will always bring the others in....it's normal to have multiple bitches in season at the same time. I really don't think it matters if it's one bitch or 5 bitches that you have in...the boys still act the same.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Moonshadow said:


> Well I guess it depends on the person. Those of us who actually show our dogs to their championships and mold them into well behaved, well socialized dogs are more likely to be able to handle them throughout their lives then say someone who goes out and buys a champion or two to breed. Yes some are more of a challange than others (but in my opinion they are more fun) and take a bit longer to mature into good dogs but eventually they do.



Just because someone gives their male something to keep them calmer during the rough times, doesn't mean they are any less knowledgeable, or capable than someone who doesn't use anything on their males. 

They *are* just animals, and I'm sure sometimes you will run into a stud that's a bit harder to deal with when you have in season bitches. Collies are also easier to work with than other breeds. Maybe studs of some other breeds are more 'up' with other males when there are in season bitches.


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## Moonshadow (Nov 9, 2008)

txcollies said:


> Just because someone gives their male something to keep them calmer during the rough times, doesn't mean they are any less knowledgeable, or capable than someone who doesn't use anything on their males.


Perhaps...but never will I resort to tranquilizing him.

What was rude about it? My neighbors have a Ch. Dachshund that I bought for their daughter to play around with...that doesn't mean that they would know how to handle him if he were out of hand. Just being a champion does not make a perfect dog. Much has to do with the the people that have that dog.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> Well I guess it depends on the person. Those of us who actually show our dogs to their championships and mold them into well behaved, well socialized dogs are more likely to be able to handle them throughout their lives then say someone who goes out and buys a champion or two to breed.



Not sure what you're implying there, because I have shown dogs to their championships - my first show dog was an AKC/UKC champion. I alone showed her in UKC and finished her. This same dog was also shown on the bench and trialed by me alone in ARHA (American Rabbit Hound Association). She would have been easily finished in ARHA if she wasn't spayed with her last litter ... Also have a dual purpose bred bitch who was shown in ARHA bench/field by me alone and in her first bench show @ 8 months took second place. The *ONLY* hound I own who was 100% finished when I got him is my male, whom I will be specialing this spring. I have also run my hounds in AKC LPO & ARHA Big Pack which is HIGHLY competitive and a bit crowded, to say the least, lol. So if you're somehow trying to imply my hounds get are not socialized, you're barking up the wrong tree. 




> Right now I own 9 AKC Champions, one of whom is a ROM sire (and I also have a ROM dam). I have been in dogs for my entire life, was co-breeder of my first champion at age 7 and he became my Jrs dog. I'm sorry but I just can not understand why dogs would need to be tranquilized then if they are properly socialized, well adjusted animals. An experienced stud may get a bit off when a bitch is ready to be bred and the boys may get goofy and sing and howl to the bitches but tranquilizers? Never. While I have had collies for the most part I've also had a few other breeds here and there and never a problem.



Um. Yeah. Ok. Show dogs aren't exactly know for their tremendous drive  I'm dealing with a particular breed that is over enthusiastic about everything and who will not quit in the field even if they are ripped up and bloodied from the chase. I'm not sure what you're problem is here. I honestly do not care if you've never had to tranquilize your particular males & not sure why it would bother you that I do so with mine? 

BTW, this is the product I use ... not exactly doggy dope  (this is also my last post on this subject - this is beyond ridiculous) 

http://www.springtimeinc.com/product/100/2

_PRODUCT HIGHLIGHTS 

Safe for daily use 
Focus and concentration 
Excellent for showing and performing 
Improved ability to deal with stress – does not sedate 
Use with high-strung, nervous, difficult types 
Prep for troublesome events – vet visits, trips, boarding, etc. 
High quality antioxidants stimulate immune response 

PRODUCT SUMMARY 

There is a big difference between exuberant, high energy and stressed-out nervousness. Stress Free Calmplex can turn negative, unpleasant situations into joyful, happy ones. Works best when given daily, but can be double dosed to target events. 

GUARANTEED SPRINGTIME ANALYSIS 
Carrot powder 600 mg/tablet 
Ascorbic acid (vitamin C) 200 mg/tablet 
Beef or pork liver 200 mg/tablet 
Citrus bioflavonoid complex, 40% 190 mg/tablet 
Hesperidin, 95% 110 mg/tablet 
Panax ginseng extract, 20:1 50 mg/tablet 
Rutin (vitamin P) 20 mg/tablet 
Ingredients: carrot powder, dextrose, fructose, ascorbic acid (vitamin C), beef or pork liver, citrus bioflavonoid complex (40%), microcrystalline cellulose, hesperidin (95%), stearic acid, panax ginseng extract (20:1), and rutin (vitamin P). 


DIRECTIONS 

Just toss them into the regular feed ration or feed as treats.* 
Small dogs Under 40 lb 1 per day 
Medium dogs 40-80 lb 2 per day 
Large dogs 80-120 lb 3 per day 
Giant dogs 120 lb & up 4+ per day 

*Dose may be repeated two or three times daily for high stress situations or when faster, more dramatic benefits are desired. 


_


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Poor girls. Even when they throw themselves at an, intact male pawing and rolling around they still get rejection.....lol Must be so annoying.










what he'd really rather do - watch tv and ignore the ladies 
Typical annoying intact male









*Urbanbeagles* I think part of it is what comes to mind with tranquilizers. This product says safe for daily use and doesn't sedate. Which is what people more then likely assumed would be the case. The dogs would be relaxed fully and in lala land. I see this is more of a calming agent. I don't think it is typical for most people to tranq studs. It seems extreme to me but then I've never owned a bunch of beagles. I can understand if one wants to neuter their male beagle if they are that "dreadful" (I know it is a cache 22, you want the intense determination for work but then you've got intense determination to breed and fights for that right too).


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> I don't think it is typical for most people to tranq studs. It seems extreme to me but then I've never owned a bunch of beagles. I can understand if one wants to neuter their male beagle if they are that "dreadful" (I know it is a cache 22, you want the intense determination for work but then you've got intense determination to breed and fights for that right too).



I don't know if it's the breed, it may well be. I have at least two who are getting ready to come in but are not in season yet, and already the boys are getting excited. Who is pestering the girls trying to hump them already, who is holding a vigil by my neutered male and whispering sweet nothings in his ear, lol. The marking is starting already. I had them out of the kennels the other day and one of my males walked up to his sire and peed on his head  I have one who gets so nervous while a girl is in full blown heat he will sit by the basement door and shake, all the while cooing like a pigeon. Insane. My girls sometimes get over excited the _month_ before they come in and start humping the boys 
When I had my GSD, I tried to breed her on 3 different heat cycles to a retired S&R dog. She wanted no part of this! Had zero interest in the stud, and he was only moderately interested in her. He once tried to mount her ... she turned around, growled, and he got off her like "ok, whatever." Never tried to mount her again, to our dismay. Now, back then I only had one intact male - a tiny bit of a thing @ 15lbs. He used to try to hump her during her entire cycle ... he'd grab onto her tail while she was walking and just hang on for dear life. He'd have a heart attack if she left his sight but she never let him breed her. If all my dogs were like that I wouldn't even have to seperate them, lol. I would be in trouble if I so much as carried an in heat bitch in the presence of the intact boys. They literally try to grab the girls out of my arms using their paws. Beagles ... very inventive & persistant, lol.

I once had one of my in season bitches out front while I was talking to the neighbor - it was a warm day so we had the inside door open. All the boys had gathered by the door, every move she made I could see them watching her like a hawk. The second I picked up her leash to take her downstairs, they all started aroooooing like mad and banging on the door. lol. The bluetick on the far left is neutered but wanted in on the action, lol.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Again, I think this is probably a breed-specific thing. My boys are fine with one another, but they are from a breed that was developed to earn a living by bringing food and giving it to another species (goes against most survival instincts), so there is a very deep-seated willingness to please and serve man...definitely not the case with many, many other breeds.

What works with mine is not always going to work with other peoples'...


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