# Puppy bit 18 month old



## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

Not in a play manner. I was washing dishes and my daughter was standing beside me, as was the dog. Suddenly he lunged at her face and bit her cheek. He did not break the skin. He growled an aggressive sounding growl as he was doing it. She started bawling, obviously. I picked Ghost up and carried him right to time out. I left him there while I checked her over and consoled her. She has scratch marks down her cheek. 

Ghost NEEDS to be good with my girls, there is no two ways about this. I have spent more time with Ghost than I have with my girls since we got him, training him, teaching him, bonding with him. My girls play with him every day, and my oldest helps train him (she is 6, I have taught her all the hand signals, and she carries rewards in her pockets). 

I read that Weim's are supposed to be good with kids. This has me seriously worried. We have and are doing so much for Ghost - he gets constant exercise, we are outside a few times every day and we come in when everyone is tired out. When we need to leave him, he gets a Kong so he is busy. He is NEVER bored or lonely. My girls give him bully sticks, and chicken feet as treats. I seriously don't know what else we can do for him to make him a "happy, balanced dog". We are an active family, so we got an active dog.

Please don't tell me I should have offered him some sort of food to "distract" him from the baby - there is NO way he is getting "rewarded" for this. I'm not about to go grab his bully stick or a toy and stuff it in his mouth to show him "this is what we bite" right after he bit her in the face. Also, I don't need to hear that we're not spending enough time with him.....this dog is getting TONS of time, tons and tons. Tons of training and he has come a long way. I train him every day throughout the day.

I don't know if I handled this "correctly", or if I should have done something different. I am not impressed with him right now. Play biting when he's excited is something totally different than just lunging at her like that and growling, out of nowhere. Not cool.

Thoughts?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Well it's hard to tell what happened just by your description, but maybe he was guarding you? Maybe start sending him away when you are close to your daughter (you can do this in many ways -- teaching him "out" which means to leave the room, or "place/go to bed", or putting him in a sit-stay/down-stay).

Sorry this happened. I don't think anyone is going to tell you that you needed to distract him with treats in this situation. I also think putting him in the crate was a good idea.


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## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

Thanks. Yes, I need to teach him "out", he is under the table while we are eating and it drives everyone crazy. I guess that will be the next thing I teach him.

I keep reading articles saying that everyone in the family should help train the dog so that the dog knows his place in the family, but how the heck to you get an 18 month old to help train? She can barely talk! She just doesn't understand. I'm not sure how to make Ghost realize that Lilah comes before him, and that he can't lunge at her like that.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

After he's bitten, there's no distracting, so I don't think anyone will advise you to distract after the fact. 

How are you training him? This statement,


> I keep reading articles saying that everyone in the family should help train the dog so that the dog knows his place in the family


 concerns me. Do you know what was happening just before the bite? Were there toys, bully sticks, food, etc. in the area?

If I were you, I'd consult with a qualified, force-free trainer or behaviorist. There are a few web sites with information about dogs and kids with good information, too, but I think it would be best to have someone evaluate and advise in-person. I'll PM you with a few links


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree with an "out" command....I'm wondering if while you were distracted with the dishes your daughter COULD have done something to Ghost? Maybe not to purposely hurt Ghost but maybe it scared him? Can't say for sure, taquitos could be right too...maybe he was guarding?


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## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

kcomstoc said:


> I agree with an "out" command....I'm wondering if while you were distracted with the dishes your daughter COULD have done something to Ghost? Maybe not to purposely hurt Ghost but maybe it scared him? Can't say for sure, taquitos could be right too...maybe he was guarding?


Yes, possibly. They were right beside me, but I wasn't looking right at them, so she could have pulled his ear or poked him in the eye maybe? Normally she just loves on him.


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## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

cookieface said:


> After he's bitten, there's no distracting, so I don't think anyone will advise you to distract after the fact.
> 
> How are you training him? This statement, concerns me. Do you know what was happening just before the bite? Were there toys, bully sticks, food, etc. in the area?
> 
> If I were you, I'd consult with a qualified, force-free trainer or behaviorist. There are a few web sites with information about dogs and kids with good information, too, but I think it would be best to have someone evaluate and advise in-person. I'll PM you with a few links


No, we aren't training him with force, or negativity. It is all positive, I have done an absolute ton of research and watched countless youtube videos. He gets rewarded every single time he does something right - every recall, every "down", etc. I am just reading all these articles saying your dog "needs to know its place in the family"....which I thought was a really old school way of thinking, yet there are tons of articles on it. I don't plan to change my way of training because it is all positive, but just amazes me how many articles are out there about dogs thinking they are "top dog" and all the problems people run into.

Anyway, no, no bully sticks, toys, etc. It was just the three of us.

Sorry if this response makes no sense, my 3 1/2 yr old won't stop talking to me right now! Hard to concentrate while being spoken to!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Erin80 said:


> Yes, possibly. They were right beside me, but I wasn't looking right at them, so she could have pulled his ear or poked him in the eye maybe? Normally she just loves on him.


Kids that age are clumsy enough to hurt a dog without meaning to. Eye pokes, ear tugs, even trying to pet the dog but pinching his skin instead of patting etc can cause a dog to react. I know it is a constant thing keeping my friends 16 month old from "petting" the dogs in the eyes or grabbing fur instead of stroking the dog's side etc. She is learning and isnt trying to hurt the dogs, the eye-hand coordination just isnt there yet.

Its actually a good sign if he didn't break the skin, it indicates bite inhibition at least.

At 18 months old, you basically have to be staring at the kid the entire time the kid and the dog are loose together. If you can't be directly watching, then the pup goes behind a baby gate or into a crate or the kid is up in a high chair with crayons until the dishes are done (for example)


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

It could have been, as was suggested, your daughter was just clumsy and inadvertently hurt or scared Ghost.



Erin80 said:


> No, we aren't training him with force, or negativity. It is all positive, I have done an absolute ton of research and watched countless youtube videos. He gets rewarded every single time he does something right - every recall, every "down", etc. I am just reading all these articles saying your dog "needs to know its place in the family"....which I thought was a really old school way of thinking, yet there are tons of articles on it. I don't plan to change my way of training because it is all positive, but just amazes me how many articles are out there about dogs thinking they are "top dog" and all the problems people run into.
> 
> Anyway, no, no bully sticks, toys, etc. It was just the three of us.
> 
> Sorry if this response makes no sense, my 3 1/2 yr old won't stop talking to me right now! Hard to concentrate while being spoken to!


Make sense! Yes, there are tons of articles on the web about how you need to be "top dog" and "show your dog who's boss," and some people follow them to the point of setting up an adversarial relationship with their dog even if the actual training is positive. 

I do like Taquito's suggestion of teaching a "place" cue.

Hope your daughter is feeling better.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

It's really really hard to tell what happened from your description. He could have just been totally over the top playing which, while totally inappropriate, is something he will grow out of with age and training. He could have been resource guarding the dishwasher (which seems likely) and that is something you can definitely work on. There are solid training methods out there for RG (check out the book "Mine!") and it's treatable.

As far as how you handled it, it's hard to say since you only mention removing him from the situation, which is a good start. Typically the time to "train" is before a bite happens, which you couldn't do if you didn't see a warning. Dogs almost always give warnings though and that's when you will act. After it has already happened, there's not much to do but diffuse the situation by putting the dog somewhere quiet and out of trouble, and consoling your daughter. For the future, I would start by separating him from the girls when you are putting things in the dishwasher, at least, in case that is his trigger, and then figure out where to go from there.

Have you taken him to obedience classes yet? I think this would be a great time to find a good positive trainer and take some classes, and get some advice for dealing with this behavior. It's really so hard to give advice over the internet when we can't see what happened, what provoked him, what signals he gave off, what his intentions were, etc.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Honestly, I don't allow kids under 4 or 5 to interact with my dog. Kids that young are totally unpredictable, have bad coordination and worse control. I will say this, you say she "loves on him", that's not a good idea. The way toddler's love on dogs is almost guaranteed to solicit a bite.

I'd get a qualified positive only trainer in to advise you.

As for "distract him with treats" I'm opposed to using the word no with dogs and I would have tossed him outside by his tail if need be. Positive doesn't mean stupid.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Yep, hard to tell what happened since you didn't see it and don't know what triggered it. It sounds like the dog needs to be supervised from here on out. Leashed to you or crated when you can't supervise. Begin to observe his body language very closely. Some ppl don't know how to read a dog. I'm not saying you're one of them, but usually people that say they do, do not.

Look at this picture taken months before the dog started reacting. The owner's friend took this picture. All of them thought the dog was great with the kid and they said all of a sudden the dog starts to growl, snap, and lunge towards the baby. Well...the dog was never comfortable in the first place, but those people thought the exact opposite.









Can you think of any triggers? Is the dog possessive of food? Was there food on the counter? Were there toys nearby? Do you know anything he resource guards? How does the child treat the dog on a day to day basis like does she hug him, sit on him, poke at him? Does the child fling her arms a lot? Start making these mental notes and watch the dog very close for any stress signals or avoidance behaviors.

and like one poster commented, is the dog resource guarding you?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Generally speaking dogs and toddlers don't belong together unless under close direct supervision. My dogs are both calm mature well-trained dogs who are fine around children, but even so they don't get to be around little ones unless we're actively watching them. Too many things can go wrong. I've used baby gates, closed doors, and crating, depending on the setup and situation.

There are lots of dogs that are fine with most kids but freaked out by toddlers. Which is understandable - toddlers are unpredictable and move oddly, compared to non-ambulatory babies and older kids/adults.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yep mine wouldn't be good with small kids either, their fast moving and high pitched noises make her excited and want to play with them, but a person who is not dog savvy could perceive the behavior as aggression. 

She could have bumped into him, poked him, was staring at him etc ... a lot of dogs don't like being stared at. I wouldn't automatically assume it was the dogs fault unless I saw what happened before the bite.

Although scary, he didn't break the skin, he could have but he didnt, that shows restraint on his part so give him some credit there.


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## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

Thanks. Believe me, I am always with them.....like I said in the original post - they were both right beside me while I was washing dishes (not loading the dishwasher). I really don't want to feel like I need to defend myself - I wasn't looking directly at them, no, but they were both right beside me, both touching my legs. My guess is that she poked him in the eye, or pulled his ear.

As for my "loving on him" comment, that doesn't mean she's smothering him. She sits on the floor, Ghost comes and lays with her (on her lap most of the time), and she slowly bends over, gives him a gentle hug, then sits up....and repeat 10 times. She knows to be gentle, we have stressed that since day 1, and she is a gentle child to begin with. She doesn't hit or pinch, etc (she does have a fascination with eyes lately though, which is why I think she might have poked him). When he is laying with or on her, I am right on the carpet with them, beside them. She is NEVER alone with Ghost. Ghost is usually with me, unless he's sleeping, and she's usually with me as well....so the three of us are almost always together. 

So many families with small kids have puppies, I think we are doing really well with Ghost. This was one incident, and as a first time puppy owner, it just scared me a bit, which is why I posted this. That said, I know I'm training him well and he definitely IS very gentle with them. This was a one off, and it was probably because she did something to him. From now on, I won't take my eyes off them when they're in the same room.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't think anybody is implying that you were delinquent or put your child in a horribly unsafe situation. We're just trying to offer suggestions for the future, especially now that there has been a first incident. 

A growl and a bite is not an unnatural thing, and it does happen, but it's also not something I would consider normal or take lightly. Not that you are, just saying that I think you are justified in having a bit of a freak out and I hope you're able to get to the root of why it happened so you can work on it in the future.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

To most dogs, a human bending over them and hugging them and doing that several times is a stressful thing. Not something I would encourage from a toddler particularly. Its hard to explain to a small child what not to do in interacting with the dog, but usually a bit easier to suggest what to do instead. Heck, I have to sometimes remind my parents not to hug Chester closely since he prefers less confining interaction like back scratches yet Eva actually does love being hugged (although I still don't lean over her much but rather have her cuddle up against my side)

I didn't mean to imply that you were not attentive to the dog and chid together, just to emphasize how insanely difficult it can be to multitask when kid and dog are loose together. Taking a second to separate them when you cannot be directly eyes-on is a very good management tool.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Erin80 said:


> Thanks. Believe me, I am always with them.....like I said in the original post - they were both right beside me while I was washing dishes (not loading the dishwasher). I really don't want to feel like I need to defend myself - I wasn't looking directly at them, no, but they were both right beside me, both touching my legs. My guess is that she poked him in the eye, or pulled his ear.


I'm not saying you were being negligent or anything - stuff happens with puppies, and stuff happens with kids, and stuff definitely happens with puppies and kids. I'm just saying, that's why personally I don't leave mine together AT ALL unless I am undivided attention watching them. There was no serious fallout so chalk it up to a learning experience and take more precautions going forward.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Parents of kids and puppies rarely tell you how much the puppy yelps from being hurt, or how scratched the kids get. 

An 18 mos child can have very sharp fingernails, so a poke in the eye could hurt.
She might have held onto his ear too long, and he 'warned' her by silently staring, then had enough.
She could have stepped on his foot ... with her face in his face.
She might even have simply stared at him continuously for 2 minutes.
I don't think you'll ever know what set him off... just continue training and managing them both...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Did I miss it, how old is the puppy?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I was just wondering coerced because she mentioned "not being too happy" with him. A dog can't speak, the only way they can communicate that something is scary or uncomfortable for them is to growl, body language, and finally, to bite.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

If you don't stop letting your child hug your dog she will get bitten again.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

So, I think what makes this hard to give any advice about is that without your eyes actually on them, you don't actually know what preceded the bite or what the puppy's body language was. I'm saying that with no judgment whatsoever and not to be snarky or rude, just a pure statement of fact - to know how to approach fixing whatever it was that happened, you need to have a pretty precise idea of what happened. Maybe it was just an over stimulated puppy having a crazy moment, maybe the child accidentally did something painful or scary, maybe maybe maybe. Different scenarios would give me a different level of concern and a different game plan moving forward.

Personally, without more information I wouldn't let the puppy and children that young interact without my full attention on them. Not only can you help prevent future incidents but you can really observe their interactions and get clues about if this is something that was a one-off "accidentally got my eye poked" vs. something like resource guarding that may be developing.

I am not a fan of little kids hugging puppies or dogs. Dogs put up with hugging until they don't, kwim?


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## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

He will be 4 months on the 25th, so he is still pretty "small". 

Lesson learned, anyway, they won't be without my eyes on them ever again.........and I will stop letting her hug him as well, even though when she's doing it he's flaked out, totally relaxed and falling asleep. He doesn't seem to mind it at all, if I thought he did...if he looked anything like that dog in the picture posted above, there is no way I'd be letting my daughter do that. 

I guess I have a ton to learn still. I know when I was growing up, my brother and I hugged our dog like crazy and never got a reaction....so I guess that's why I didn't think twice about my girls hugging Ghost. Any time my older two hug him, Ghost's tail is wagging like crazy and he seems happy...but maybe I'm misreading that. 

Anyway, thanks for all the advice and warnings - I definitely want to do what is best. I don't want the kids getting hurt by the dog.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Hector4 said:


> Yep, hard to tell what happened since you didn't see it and don't know what triggered it. It sounds like the dog needs to be supervised from here on out. Leashed to you or crated when you can't supervise. Begin to observe his body language very closely. Some ppl don't know how to read a dog. I'm not saying you're one of them, but usually people that say they do, do not.
> 
> Look at this picture taken months before the dog started reacting. The owner's friend took this picture. All of them thought the dog was great with the kid and they said all of a sudden the dog starts to growl, snap, and lunge towards the baby. Well...the dog was never comfortable in the first place, but those people thought the exact opposite.
> 
> ...


 Even the body language of the dog in the photo makes me nervious,whale eye,tight lips and looks a little tense. This is why learning body language is so so important.

My dog isn't that great with small children either,he has reacted negatively to them crawling around and being rambunctious. He also dislikes anything odd like toddlers on shoulders or wearing masks. While being a bit too obsessed over babies. Which means I tend to be on top of my game with him and tend to not let them come up to him. I know when he seems even a little tensed up(even less obviously than the photo) or excited and will react quickly. So yeah kinda glad I don't have children with him.

But I also have to say even dogs that love children can have off moments. I got a nice snap in the face by a childhood dog because I fell into her,a dog that actually loved and was typically tolerant of children. So I feel all dogs are likely to have some sort of breaking point. Luckily that never happened twice so was simply forgotten about.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Foresthund said:


> Even the body language of the dog in the photo makes me nervious,whale eye,tight lips and looks a little tense. This is why learning body language is so so important.
> 
> My dog isn't that great with small children either,he has reacted negatively to them crawling around and being rambunctious. He also dislikes anything odd like toddlers on shoulders or wearing masks. While being a bit too obsessed over babies. Which means I tend to be on top of my game with him and tend to not let them come up to him. I know when he seems even a little tensed up(even less obviously than the photo) or excited and will react quickly. So yeah kinda glad I don't have children with him.
> 
> But I also have to say even dogs that love children can have off moments. I got a nice snap in the face by a childhood dog because I fell into her,a dog that actually loved and was typically tolerant of children. So I feel all dogs are likely to have some sort of breaking point. Luckily that never happened twice so was simply forgotten about.


Yeah that dog in the picture's body language screams "get this thing away from me" IMHO even someone not dog savvy should be able to see that. 

In short: stop your child from hugging the dog. And I have a feeling she poked him and he, in the best way he knew how told her "ouch that hurts!" But like I said give him some credit, even at 4 Mos old he did show remarkable restraint if he "lunged" at her he only have her a small scratch. But if you don't mediate this it will get worse.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Erin80 said:


> Thanks. Believe me, I am always with them.....like I said in the original post - they were both right beside me while I was washing dishes (not loading the dishwasher). I really don't want to feel like I need to defend myself - I wasn't looking directly at them, no, but they were both right beside me, both touching my legs. My guess is that she poked him in the eye, or pulled his ear.
> 
> As for my "loving on him" comment, that doesn't mean she's smothering him. She sits on the floor, Ghost comes and lays with her (on her lap most of the time), and she slowly bends over, gives him a gentle hug, then sits up....and repeat 10 times. She knows to be gentle, we have stressed that since day 1, and she is a gentle child to begin with. She doesn't hit or pinch, etc (she does have a fascination with eyes lately though, which is why I think she might have poked him). When he is laying with or on her, I am right on the carpet with them, beside them. She is NEVER alone with Ghost. Ghost is usually with me, unless he's sleeping, and she's usually with me as well....so the three of us are almost always together.
> 
> So many families with small kids have puppies, I think we are doing really well with Ghost. This was one incident, and as a first time puppy owner, it just scared me a bit, which is why I posted this. That said, I know I'm training him well and he definitely IS very gentle with them. This was a one off, and it was probably because she did something to him. From now on, I won't take my eyes off them when they're in the same room.


Don't let her hug him. That is aggressive to a dog, and asking to be bitten.
I know you think that because they were next to you that you were supervising, but it goes deeper than that. If the kid and dog are going to be together, you need to be actually watching both of them at all times. Not doing any other activity. Not watching tv, doing dishes, on phone, talking with friend, etc. You need to have 100% of your attention on them. because you need to be able to see if the kid does something that makes the dog uncomfortable so you can see the dog stiffen, start to look away, whale eyes, etc. That may be your only sign before he bites. And you need to be close enough to call him to you/remove your kid, as soon as you see him getting uncomfortable. You can't be distracted and miss those signs. Or miss seeing what it is that is causing dog discomfort, so you know what to work on or avoid.


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## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

HoW is the dog's training in General? Did you do obedience training?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah because you can't expect them to just know stuff, and most of training is setting them up to succeed as supposed to just expecting them to "just know". Like I don't want my dog to get into the garbage, so I put it where they can't reach it. If I don't want them in somewhere, I make sure they just don't have access.


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## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

I definitely don't expect him to "just know" not to bite her. His training in general is awesome so far. No, we don't go to obedience classes because they are 45 min away, and our week is already busy as it is. However, I have researched like crazy and I think I have trained him well so far. He also goes to daycare once a week where he interacts with 7 other dogs and it is run by a dog trainer (in her home) - he loves this. I think it was a one off, she must have done something to him to get that kind of reaction. He is definitely not an aggressive dog generally. He has learned to be very gentle around the kids, except for that one time. Since then, my eyes are always on them when they are in the same room.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Erin80 said:


> I definitely don't expect him to "just know" not to bite her. His training in general is awesome so far. No, we don't go to obedience classes because they are 45 min away, and our week is already busy as it is. However, I have researched like crazy and I think I have trained him well so far. He also goes to daycare once a week where he interacts with 7 other dogs and it is run by a dog trainer (in her home) - he loves this. I think it was a one off, she must have done something to him to get that kind of reaction. He is definitely not an aggressive dog generally. He has learned to be very gentle around the kids, except for that one time. Since then, my eyes are always on them when they are in the same room.


I go to agility classes that are almost 2 hours from me with traffic ... and I am not rich, I dont have an unlimited supply of time either, but I was commited to bettering my relationship with my dog ... and it has.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

^But not everyone can drop a minimum of five hours daily much less five hours in a row (2 hrs there, 1 at class, 2 to get back).

If it is in your means though I would consider it. In person interaction is worlds better and it is a small form of social interaction for me personally to look forward to when things are hectic.

That being said i think I wouldn't drive much further than an hour one way. But that's just me


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CrimsonAccent said:


> ^But not everyone can drop a minimum of five hours daily much less five hours in a row (2 hrs there, 1 at class, 2 to get back).
> 
> If it is in your means though I would consider it. In person interaction is worlds better and it is a small form of social interaction for me personally to look forward to when things are hectic.
> 
> That being said i think I wouldn't drive much further than an hour one way. But that's just me


nothing closer, but without traffic its like a little over an hour, its just that the area this place is in has grown faster then the roads around it, for years it was just a semi rural place, and it just developed faster then the roads could and all. but we did fine a faster route that takes us like, an hour and 5 minutes. if i leave at 4pm I get to the area about 5:30/6pm, my class starts at 7pm.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> nothing closer, but without traffic its like a little over an hour, its just that the area this place is in has grown faster then the roads around it, for years it was just a semi rural place, and it just developed faster then the roads could and all. but we did fine a faster route that takes us like, an hour and 5 minutes. if i leave at 4pm I get to the area about 5:30/6pm, my class starts at 7pm.


Yea you don't have kids, that wreaks havoc with the freedom to do stuff like that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Yea you don't have kids, that wreaks havoc with the freedom to do stuff like that.


there are people in my class who have kids and still make it to class, I dont understand getting a dog then griping the first behavorial problem they have, whining about wanting to fix it, then saying "but I dont have the time!" then I am sorry but maybe they shouldnt have gotten a dog.

I had two dogs, had no yard, when I worked 7 days a week from 5am-5pm with an hour lunch in between, with a fiancee (which is kind of like having a kid LMBO) to take care of as well and I still met both his needs and theirs, so it CAN be done, you just have to make the time.

Maybe ask around if any of the local teenagers or young adults would like to make some extra money babysitting? I had a friend who made a killing doing just that on her holiday breaks from school.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> there are people in my class who have kids and still make it to class, I dont understand getting a dog then griping the first behavorial problem they have, whining about wanting to fix it, then saying "but I dont have the time!" then I am sorry but maybe they shouldnt have gotten a dog.
> 
> I had two dogs, had no yard, when I worked 7 days a week from 5am-5pm with an hour lunch in between, with a fiancee (which is kind of like having a kid LMBO) to take care of as well and I still met both his needs and theirs, so it CAN be done, you just have to make the time.
> 
> Maybe ask around if any of the local teenagers or young adults would like to make some extra money babysitting? I had a friend who made a killing doing just that on her holiday breaks from school.


I don't think the OP is just throwing her hands in the air and saying she doesn't have time for the dog. 

1) From what I have read in her other threads, she spends quite a bit of time training Ghost. 
2) She said she is willing to do what is needed to make sure this type of incident doesn't happen again. 
3) Ghost goes to daycare often, which has a trainer that she can speak to.

Just because she cannot drive 45min to an obedience class does not mean she is not trying to fulfill Ghost's needs.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I go to agility classes that are almost 2 hours from me with traffic ... and I am not rich, I dont have an unlimited supply of time either, but I was commited to bettering my relationship with my dog ... and it has.





OwnedbyACDs said:


> there are people in my class who have kids and still make it to class, I dont understand getting a dog then griping the first behavorial problem they have, whining about wanting to fix it, then saying "but I dont have the time!" then I am sorry but maybe they shouldnt have gotten a dog.
> 
> I had two dogs, had no yard, when I worked 7 days a week from 5am-5pm with an hour lunch in between, with a fiancee (which is kind of like having a kid LMBO) to take care of as well and I still met both his needs and theirs, so it CAN be done, you just have to make the time.


That's not fair. At all. Erin posts here all the time, and she is obviously committed to having a good relationship with him. You don't have to spend all your free time with your dog to be "committed to your relationship." If an obedience class does not fit into your schedule, you shouldn't be shamed into doing it. It just means that you have to work on obedience yourself. Which she has been doing.

And no. Having a fiancee is nothing like having a kid. Your fiancee doesn't need to be watched constantly. And I'm sure he can feed and clothe himself.

Also, she's not "griping" or "whining." She is actively looking for advice on how to help her dog be a better dog.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> there are people in my class who have kids and still make it to class, I dont understand getting a dog then griping the first behavorial problem they have, whining about wanting to fix it, then saying "but I dont have the time!" then I am sorry but maybe they shouldnt have gotten a dog.
> 
> I had two dogs, had no yard, when I worked 7 days a week from 5am-5pm with an hour lunch in between, with a fiancee (which is kind of like having a kid LMBO) to take care of as well and I still met both his needs and theirs, so it CAN be done, you just have to make the time.
> 
> Maybe ask around if any of the local teenagers or young adults would like to make some extra money babysitting? I had a friend who made a killing doing just that on her holiday breaks from school.


Yea I hate that, too. But I think you're confusing the OP, who has been pretty open to the advice offered/willing to work with the dog at home and whose only "can't" is taking large chunks of time out of her schedule to actually go to a class, with one of those people.

Once again, try to step outside of your immediate experience and have an ounce of empathy for someone whose circumstances you aren't fully informed of.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> there are people in my class who have kids and still make it to class, I dont understand getting a dog then griping the first behavorial problem they have, whining about wanting to fix it, then saying "but I dont have the time!" then I am sorry but maybe they shouldnt have gotten a dog.
> 
> I had two dogs, had no yard, when I worked 7 days a week from 5am-5pm with an hour lunch in between, with a fiancee (which is kind of like having a kid LMBO) to take care of as well and I still met both his needs and theirs, so it CAN be done, you just have to make the time.
> 
> Maybe ask around if any of the local teenagers or young adults would like to make some extra money babysitting? I had a friend who made a killing doing just that on her holiday breaks from school.


Do you have to watch your fiance to prevent him from drinking out of the dog bowl, wandering into the street, flooding the bathroom trying to create an ocean for toy ships, drawing on the walls, shoving a Lego up his nose? Do you have 4 fiances to watch to prevent those things? Not so much like having a kid then.

Quite frankly, every time I watch my friends' small children for them, I am impressed that my friends manage to take a shower daily and eat a hot meal once and awhile considering the near constant attention toddlers require.

As for hiring a baby sitter, well, I'm not in a high cost region but the going rate is about $15/hr for 2 kids so I bet 4 kids would be about $20/hr. That's about $70-90 just for the babysitter on training class night. Add in gas, maybe $10-15. The class itself, maybe $15-20. If you don't make dinner before class, figure the cost of pizza for the kids and the sitter at say, $20. How many people have $100+ to spend weekly on a training class for a puppy who, by all appearances, hasn't actually got any major behavioral issues? 

If the pup DOES have some real issues, the money would probably be better spent on a qualified in-home evaluation with follow-up as needed. If the daycare has a decent trainer, there is a resource there.


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## Erin80 (Oct 12, 2014)

Thanks everyone.

Unless you have kids, you really have no idea what you're talking about regarding time management. If I didn't have kids, Ghost would be our baby - he would be in obedience classes, agility classes, etc. I would love to do that with him, and maybe one day, when my girls are older, agility is something we will get into. However, I have 3 kids.....6, almost 4 and 18 months....Ghost is not our baby, he is ONE of our babies....which means he needs to share his time with me just like my girls do. I WILL NOT be made to feel guilty about not going completely nuts spending my every spare second with Ghost. I do my best, and he is doing amazing. We have had ONE incident - the one that started this post. Since then, I have watched him more closely when he is around my baby, taken the advice here, and all has been fine. He has shown zero aggression, and I make sure she is acting appropriately around him. 

Ghost is with us all the time, he is a family member, he's important...and he knows it...but he's not the ONLY one. Running him into town for classes is just not an option, so I do the second best thing - I youtube and follow links suggested here, I spend our outdoors time training him while my girls play. We practice recall constantly. He goes to daycare, where there are 7-9 other dogs he interacts with and it is run by a dog trainer. 

Seriously, I come here looking for guidance. I don't come here looking to be made to feel guilty because Ghost isn't my one and only and oh my god what a horrible dog owner I am. If I was childless, it would be different.....but we do the best we can and I know we're doing a good job with him. He is extremely happy and doing so well training wise. 

A huge thank you to those of you offering help, I am taking it, believe me. Most of you know more than I do, so I listen.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

No I will admit, I dont have kids, I am just going by what I have seen other people who have kids and want to have a hobby do. the the closest thing i have had to kids is multiple dogs ... and thats how its going to stay, at least for me. Because i would resent the child for taking time away from my dog stuff.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No I will admit, I dont have kids, I am just going by what I have seen other people who have kids and want to have a hobby do. the the closest thing i have had to kids is multiple dogs ... and thats how its going to stay, at least for me. Because i would resent the child for taking time away from my dog stuff.


Do you really think the normal obedience class would teach anything that would help this woman? I went to classes when I first got dogs, but found them so incredibly frustrating that I gave up altogether. Class size too big. Teacher has no time for individual questions/problems. The issues that are important to me, like recall under distraction, covered not at all, while stuff I don't give a fig about, like precise positioning in heel and sit, worked to death. Apart from puppy preschool, most dog classes are a sport/hobby. Ghost if 4 mo old. In my book, beginner obedience is unlikely to be a big help. The skills you learn in working into a dog sport are likely to improve your everyday relationship with your dog . . . but there are many routes to building good everyday relationships with a dog, and most of them don't require classes. 
Learning to read your dog's expressions is probably the most important skill there is.
If the OP hasn't already done so, I think investing some hours in learning to read your dog's body language would be worth the time. I'm not up to date and have poor internet access. Maybe others can suggest video materials?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah thats what I meant, classes (like for a dog sport like agility or competitive obedience) I wasnt talking standard classes, for I also find them frustrating.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Some body language information and good general training resources can be found in the sticky on leash aggression, http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/191506-links-books-blogs-etc.html

Turid Rugaas has some very good photo illustrations of body language but I can't find the link right now.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I remember once as a kid getting too much into my family dog's face and he let me know with a quick nip to the nose. Definitely not a full on bite but enough to teach me not to do that ever again. That was the one and only time that dog did something like that in his 15 years with our family. Hopefully this was a one time only event. It sounds to me like you have a good plan. There is some really good advice.



> At 18 months old, you basically have to be staring at the kid the entire time the kid and the dog are loose together. If you can't be directly watching, then the pup goes behind a baby gate or into a crate or the kid is up in a high chair with crayons until the dishes are done (for example)


 This one is a keeper!

Yeah and I raised two kids with dogs too. Never a dull moment. Sleep is over rated anyway.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

18 mth old kid and 4 mth pup they're just littermates.


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