# Schutzhund (and family pictures!)



## Equinox

When I began looking for my first dog, and first German Shepherd, I knew I wanted working lines but had no intention of starting up Schutzhund. Now, I really want nothing more than to join a club and start Trent in SchH. He's pet/companion quality, but that's only relative to his dam and sire and the rest of his litter. The problem isn't him... just me. 

1) We have no time. The commute to the club itself would take up to 4 hours, and I understand SchH to be a big commitment.

2) Our obedience generally stinks compared to the flashy performance of the SchH dogs and while we're probably good enough to get a BH, I doubt we'd do very well in OB training. I feel as if I would be "dragging others down" in my incompetence! 

Questions - how much time is spent on training with a SchH club each week, in your experience? Also, do clubs generally actually feel okay with members who are interested and willing to commit, but do not desire to become actively competitive? 

Thanks in advance. And pictures of Trent's family in SchH - photo credits go to Rackwitz-Meute, owner of Quitte (first dog) and Arizona SchH Club (second dog).

His dam's dam.


















Sire


----------



## Xeph

> how much time is spent on training with a SchH club each week, in your experience? Also, do clubs generally actually feel okay with members who are interested and willing to commit, but do not desire to become actively competitive?


I can't really answer "per week" but the club we're looking into trains Saturday and Wednesday. We went last Saturday and spent 7 hours out there...

As for the latter question...it depends on the club


----------



## Equinox

The latter question was really an "in your experience" question. Trent's breeder has been very encouraging and wants me in his SchH club, but I think he may be overestimating my capabilities and how far Trent and I can get. He bred Trent and he's a DVG Judge (as is his daughter - youngest certified in North America) so I feel that he expects us to at least make SchH1, when I think a BH is an accomplishment and SchH1 is a reach.


----------



## ACampbell

Our local club meets up Monday, Wednesday, and Friday - for a couple of hours, depending. We used to meet once a week in the afternoons and go from 4 to 7ish or as long as it would stay light enough. 
Then the seasoned folks usually head up to Denver to work with the parent club on the weekend or go trialing (trials get held as far south as New Mexico, so close to my mom's house I could easily drive home nightly, haha). I can't afford to make a 160 mile roundtrip weekly to Denver, and haven't gone lately because Lacey snapped her canine off so she's going to have that pulled and be retired from any kind of bitework - the vet is pretty sure if we continue it will break/rip out her other lower canine so it's not worth it - though the tooth wasn't damaged at training, she broke it at home. We're still going to do our AD and probably the BH though (since the BH has no biting). We'll be going back starting up in January (well, IF we get somewhere indoors to train, nobody wants to get out in the snow here) with hte new pup.

It's a commitment. You don't have to be a "burden" on the club either, try watching some of the Leerburg vids on the OB (mainly the Michael Ellis ones on the focus heeling and training with food or something like that), listen to the trainers at your club, and a LOT of it is working on things at home. 

At least with us, your commitment doesn't end at training, you go home, work on it between sessions, and then someone tells you what you're doing right/wrong the next time at training


----------



## Equinox

Thanks ACampbell 

I have always liked Michael Ellis's video and advice. Trent and I have also tried to work on doodling and so far we are not doing too great. I have watched a lot of the available Leerburg and Michael Ellis videos and we do work on training every day - Trent CAN heel, just doesn't do the flashy heelwork I know people like to see. His basic obedience is good, but nothing that would award him the extra points for performance. We work on it daily, he just does not have the consistency and stamina in working in drive. I would not purposefully burden anyone, not if I can help it  

But I will say, if the inability and lack of desire in working towards a flashy performance will make us a burden, it's probably not a club I want to join. That's really all I'm asking - is that the basic attitude of SchH Clubs you've known?


----------



## ACampbell

It just depends on the people. These folks are laid back, helpful, and even my hard headed dog isn't a "burden" - and they take in n00bs, lol. I don't have flashy heeling either - not the whole "stare at your face and prance" way anyway. As long as the dog is focused though there's not too much to complain about. I'd stress less about "flashy" and more on just the performance overall. There's probably someone there who can help you get the flashy work out or give you new ideas. 

You could always go to a couple of training days and see if you like it and what they're doing without committing to anything.


----------



## Yvonne

The heel is a small percentage of the score and going to the club to train is what well training the club is for to learn and teach your dog better not just go there because you already can do it all  I trained for years with a club but did not compete because I trained a different tracking on my dogs for sar instead of sch sport. They didnt mind at all and I would not have traded the experience for anything. I learned a great deal there as well.


----------



## Elisabeth

Rei, I am sure you have read my many posts about Stark and our umm.... obedience woes, shall we call them?

I can honestly say though, as Stark matures and I become able to communicate what I want from him better (club members are saints!) our obedience isn't looking to shabby. He will never be a flashy obedience dog (like Jason's Ike) and I realize that, but I can actually see a light at the end of the tunnel in the form of a BH.. hopefully that will happen this spring/summer.

As far as how much time is spent training each week, it really depends. Our training days are Sunday and Wednesday and we have our TD avaliable on Monday's as well if we need to go out and work on something.

Tracking lasts about an hour, with travel time (we don't have enough space to track on our field, so we dispurse throughout the community and then meet back at the field). Obedience is next and is anywhere from 1-2 hours, depending on how many dogs are being worked. We usually do a small group (with the younger dogs) session first and then everyone is crated and we work on individual dogs. Protection is last and that is anywhere from 2-3 hours usually. We have a lot of young dogs at our club so we spend a great deal of time working them and talking about them. 

I have to say the majority of time spent on club days is waiting around. I find those times quite exciting though because I learn so much by watching all the different dogs and how they are handled and why, etc..

As far as being an active member without competeing.. that is up to the club. I know our club has some members who only train in obedience and then some who do obedience and tracking and they have no desire to compete. We are fine with that. I have also visited clubs who only have members who do all three phases and who must compete. Our club is pretty easy going and very open to anyone willing to come out and spend time with their dogs. I know that the older members pester us younger members to compete and to "just get out there and do it!" but we all have our own way of doing things. It really is dependent on the club I think.

I definitely think you should get out there and try it. It is SOOOO much fun and SOOOO addicting.

I think Trent can do it, I mean if Stark is doing it then ANYONE can... lol.


----------



## RaeganW

Elisabeth said:


> I have also visited clubs who only have members who do all three phases and who must compete. Our club is pretty easy going and very open to anyone willing to come out and spend time with their dogs. I know that the older members pester us younger members to compete and to "just get out there and do it!" but we all have our own way of doing things. It really is dependent on the club I think.


I am competition mad and think everyone should do it because it's the very best thing, but what is the point of a club saying its members MUST compete?


----------



## Xeph

> but what is the point of a club saying its members MUST compete?


Clubs like this feel like they're wasting their time if the people they're training don't want to trial.


----------



## Elisabeth

Xeph said:


> Clubs like this feel like they're wasting their time if the people they're training don't want to trial.


Correct.

Our club does not focus on trialing although some senior members tend to bring it up a little more often than others... lol. I don't like that atmosphere. I find it creates a pressure on both the handler and dog to "get it done" rather than really learn what they are doing, why they are doing it, etc..


----------



## RaeganW

Interesting.

Equinox, love the pictures! Particularly the second to last one, you can see his chompers. LOL, love how unconcerned the helper looks.


----------



## Elisabeth

RaeganW said:


> I am competition mad and think everyone should do it because it's the very best thing, but what is the point of a club saying its members MUST compete?


I am excited (and TOTALLY NERVOUS) to compete. We are going to do some Rally stuff this winter to prepare us for our BH (just to get in the groove of being ring side, calm *my* nerves, etc..) but I totally want to get out there and do it!


----------



## Elana55

I am in the process of joining a club (we are both on trial with each other for four sessions). I will have to compete if I want to get Questa a Champion ship rating under the German Breed Registry. I would love to get her V rating.. and if she was good enough her VA. Right now we are starting moves for Heel and for Tracking and play for tug games (bite work foundation) and ball drive (the last is my weakness). 

I will say that it is not inexpensive. In fact, it is quite and expensive sport to be in. However, getting a Ch in AKC is not a cheap venture either. 

The point of the German System is to prove the dog can work in addition to 'look good' and I like that aspect. The new IPO rules are attempting to eliminate "midnight trials" and other nefarious methods of titling dogs for the breed registry. Hopefully they will be built on.

BTW the club meets on Saturdays. Usually 9:00AM -2:00PM or later.. It is a committment of time. They also meet on Wednesday nights.. 

Due to the cost of gas and running the truck and winter weather I have to becareful how many meets I make. Saturdays I drive almost 100 miles (round trip) in a truck that gets 20MPG with gass at just over $3 a gallon.


----------



## Xeph

The problem is new rules have yet again been instated (or will be) that are further watering down the breed test. It isn't even referenced as a breed test anymore, but a sport. The work is starting to mean less and less about the dog, and more and more about the training.

I DO think that some of the changes have been GOOD (abuse is definitely less prominent now), but other changes have been to the detriment of the breed (such as the removal of stick hits in some countries, and the use of a padded stick in others like ours). The other protection venues are lending to a better test of the breed than SchH now, which is kind of sad.


----------



## Elana55

You can still do what the breed was intended for and get into the Breed Survey. You can still put an HGH on your dog and go for a V etc. rating instead of getting a Schutzhund title. 

The German ShepHERD was designed originally to herd. They went to SchH work because of the decline in farming and the subsequent decline in the quality of the dogs that were being bred. 

Atka could get her HGH and her BH and do the Breed Survey. No point in it as she is spayed and doing these things are very costly. In a lot of ways I wish I had not spayed Atka but she is and that is OK. I have been thinking of trying to put tracking titles on her in both Schutzhund and in AKC. She is good at that and we can train anywhere w/o a club. If I had not whacked into the glass ceiling at work I would have sent her for herding in the spring.. she would love it.. but money has to be used for stuff like mortgage, food, fuel, car upkeep and repairs etc... 

The club thing IMO is mostly for protection work and learning that. You need a KNOWLEDGEABLE helper to do the protection phase. I have been doing obedience etc. in another club. 

The Schutzhund test or sport is subject to the laws of the country where the competition is held. If the law says no stick hits, then that is the law. If the law says no prong collars that is the law. If the law says the stick must be padded, then that is the law. this is not the fault of Schuthund or Schuthund competition. Two weeks ago the sticks used were bamboo and uncovered (unpadded sticks). The dogs seemed more reactive (if they reacted at all) to the padded stick and padded stick hits.... 

FWIW the new rules are IMO a step in the right direction. You have to start somewhere. I do not like that you can get a SchH on your dog in phases as opposed to a single trial (you can do it either way).. however that is noted and for somethings you still need to do everything in a single trial. for expense purposes I am training Questa so that we can do what we need to in a single trial (I hope!!). 

As I learn and progress in this what might be very funny is if Atka ended up doing bite work.. and titling in SchH. She might just do it.. but again, it will depend on time and (mostly) money...


----------



## Yvonne

I agree Elana and think too many owners these days make excuses to breed their lesser dogs or do not have the inclination to prove their dogs working before breeding.


----------



## Xeph

> The club thing IMO is mostly for protection work and learning that. You need a KNOWLEDGEABLE helper to do the protection phase. I have been doing obedience etc. in another club.


Certainly can't disagree there.



> The Schutzhund test or sport is subject to the laws of the country where the competition is held. If the law says no stick hits, then that is the law. If the law says no prong collars that is the law. If the law says the stick must be padded, then that is the law. this is not the fault of Schuthund or Schuthund competition. Two weeks ago the sticks used were bamboo and uncovered (unpadded sticks).


But that wasn't my point at all. And a bigger reaction does not equal a better dog.

My point was the changing in these rules (and training) in the end results in changes in the DOGS (i.e. the breed). And not always for the better. Jon and I will be looking for a club when we settle in New Jersey so we can work our dogs, but it's very telling when even the helpers and TD's these days reference SchH as a big GAME of tug, instead of as serious work for the breed. Dogs that work in prey instead of defense (I have one of those, for numerous reasons), nerve that is weaker (across the board, not just one line or another), inability to cap drive, etc.

SchH may be subject tot he laws of the country, but then new ways need to be found to adequately test the dogs. I'm looking forward to participating more (with help), but the more I learn and study, the more I'd more readily breed to a dog that works for a living (such as a SAR dog, or trailing dog) than the SchH dog with a SchH III and high scores.



> I do not like that you can get a SchH on your dog in phases as opposed to a single trial (you can do it either way)..


Honest question...when did that come about? To the best of my knowledge, you can do the obedience and tracking titles separately, but in order to actually achieve the SchH title you must go through all three phases on the same day. Protection is not offered separately in Schutzhund unless something has changed.

You have OB-1 through OB-3 and TR-1 through TR-3 (I believe that's correct), as well as the FH titles, but nothing that is protection only.


----------



## Yvonne

they started referring to it as a game in an effort to educate the pubic they are not training dogs to be killing machines and dumbed the terms in sch down to them to protect our right to train with schutzhund not as a slight or to de noble the schutzhund criteria.


----------



## Equinox

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Will try and get started with Trent in Schutzhund in 1 1/2 - 2 years when timing is better. Can't make the commitment now, unfortunately. I will be heading up to visit his breeder's club, and maybe take a look at several recommended clubs in Washington State, only a couple hours' drive.

Then we will see what I want in my second GSD puppy and we will also be going from there. 



Elana55 said:


> The German ShepHERD was designed originally to herd. They went to SchH work because of the decline in farming and the subsequent decline in the quality of the dogs that were being bred.


Elana, what are your sources when you say that the German Shepherd was designed to herd only? To the best of my knowledge they were created from herding types to make one consistent breed, but a breed who's sole purpose was not _just _to herd, but to work in other venues as an all around working dog as well. Of course, SchH is not working, and SchH was never designed as work for the German Shepherd. It was supposed to be used as a test of character and the breeding worth of the dog. 



Yvonne said:


> they started referring to it as a game in an effort to educate the pubic they are not training dogs to be killing machines and dumbed the terms in sch down to them to protect our right to train with schutzhund not as a slight or to de noble the schutzhund criteria.


Guess that goes back to the argument on semantics vs. the power of words in twisting ideas, huh? Once they reference it as a game, that is how people will view it and how people will train their dogs for it. They will lose sight of the purpose and idea behind Schutzhund, and any dog who can play tug and keep her teeth latched onto the sleeve will be declared "breeding quality". 

What a shame.


----------



## ACampbell

> FWIW the new rules are IMO a step in the right direction. You have to start somewhere. I do not like that you can get a SchH on your dog in phases as opposed to a single trial (you can do it either way).. however that is noted and for somethings you still need to do everything in a single trial. for expense purposes I am training Questa so that we can do what we need to in a single trial (I hope!!).


The IPO rules are supposed to be instated sometime in 2011 - I know they were down to a vote sometime this month on WHEN they'd be applied.

At the suggestion of my training buddy, I've switched over to the dark side (ring). They actually have training groups and don't screw around - we meet every other Saturday here, the off ones in Denver (which I don't drive to) and Monday/Wednesday nights here. It was getting ridiculous trying to make Schutzhund training and then nobody shows up, etc. The only thing I'll do is the AD, possibly a BH with my adult dog, and the new pup is going to be trained for ring. 



> Honest question...when did that come about? To the best of my knowledge, you can do the obedience and tracking titles separately, but in order to actually achieve the SchH title you must go through all three phases on the same day. Protection is not offered separately in Schutzhund unless something has changed.


As far as I know, you achieve the SchH1 title during a single trial; you cannot do it in legs. All 3 phases must be done in the same trial. Now, this may be split between two days if there are a lot of dogs, with the OB and tracking on say Saturday and protection on Sunday - but no, you're not going to be able to do the tracking and OB one day and a month later the protection and title.

Now, you can get the SchHA title (novice schutzhund) with just obedience and protection - no tracking. But it's certainly not the same as the SchH1 and both the obedience and protection phases must be done at the same trial.


----------



## Equinox

ACampbell - when are you getting that puppy of yours? If you don't have him/her already? 

Could you explain to me the differences between training for French Ring and training for SchH? And I mean differences in atmosphere and the people you train with, as well as technique. Not the rules or whatnot.


----------



## ACampbell

He doesn't come home until 12/09 - he'll be 8 weeks old then.

This is a Mondio ring group I went out with this last weekend. From what I can tell, everyone's pretty helpful and knows what they're doing. No pressure really because there are a couple of older dogs that have been training for awhile and not titled. One person is the same one I trained with before I broke my leg last year, the rest of them are new to me and I don't know them. 

Technique difference is getting me so far as I'm not all on the up and up with their exact rules. Leg/body bites are fair game, not just arms. From what I'm told, training a dog for a leg bite and moving up to the arms is easier than trying to retrain a SchH dog to bite the leg. You need a decoy that knows what they are doing for sure.
GSD's aren't as common with these folks (I think, including my new pup will make 3, possibly 4 out of 20+ dogs), there are a lot more Mals, a dutch shepherd, and a couple of Dobes. 
It's a hell of a lot harder than Schutzhund. Here's their site with a brief overview.

http://www.usmondioring.org/


----------



## Xeph

Mondio and French Ring, from my understanding, "favor" breeds like the Malinois and Dutchie, simply because it is a sport that requires a lot of agility. Schutzhund, IMO and understanding, shows a lot more power. Malinois and Dutch Shepherds are smaller and lighter, making for easier and quicker turns.

I know GSDs in French Ring tend to lose points on missed bites simply because they are a larger, heavier breed, and just cannot make the necessary turns and adjustments when the decoy moves to dodge them.

Nothing wrong with that, that's just the way the GSD is built. It is not to say a GSD cannot be agile, or a Malinois cannot be powerful, but in general, the GSD exhibits more of one, and the Mal the other.


----------



## ACampbell

That's pretty much it when you compare them side by side in a ring competition - mal's are little crackheads.  Speed has some part in it too, a lot of the exercises are timed on how long they get to complete it (think the brevet) - so if you screw up and have a slower dog, you might not pass at all for going over.

I think the fun part was the decoy on the escort. Wandering between the rest of us standing around and talking with a dog right on him the whole time. It's comforting to know the dog knows who to escort and doesn't decide that one of the legs of the, literally, innocent bystanders, is what they need to bite.

I debated a Mal vs the GSD when looking at pups, but didn't think I could commit to a Mal pup in the house as much as I can the GSD's. Not quite ready to take the leap from a dog with an off switch to a crackhead - I'll get there eventually.


----------



## Xeph

I like Ring, and think it's an awesome thing to participate in. My concern of course, becomes when GSD people start exhibiting in it and then begin breeding a dog that can perform well in Ring, instead of breeding a dog that is a correct GSD.

OMG it'd be like black and sable Malinois. AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## RaeganW

Equinox said:


> ACampbell - when are you getting that puppy of yours? If you don't have him/her already?
> 
> Could you explain to me the differences between training for French Ring and training for SchH? And I mean differences in atmosphere and the people you train with, as well as technique. Not the rules or whatnot.


Michael Ellis has videos on the differences on some of the ring sports: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mosLTuSlFc


----------



## Elana55

_Schutzhund was developed for German Shepherds in Germany as a way to objectively measure the working ability of a dog. Sheepherding was declining so von Stephanitz, the driving force behind the German Shepherd Dog, developed this sport as a test. Schutzhund is supposed to expose the character and quality of a dog as a potential breeding stock. The difficulty of the Schutzhund test should weed out any animal not physically or temperamentally suited to working._ From: http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/activities/schutzhund.html

The German Shepherd was originally a herding dog that tended cattle and sheep and other herds of livestock. The style of herding called 'tending' requires the dogs to act like a fence.. they tend to run straight lines around the herd (like a rectangle) to keep them in an area (and out of other areas). They can also drive (and must to bring the sheep to and from pasture) but tending is where they excel. 

I tried to access Ellen Nickelsburg's site and her discussions of the breed with Manfred Heyne, but it seems her site is down (or the server is). A truncated discussion is here: http://leerburg.com/manfred.htm

This dog was NOT bred for Schutzhund type work originally. The dog was originally bred to tend livestock and defend that livestock. 

Protection work was largely the result of war and declines in farming. It happened that the breed did that well.. and then those that excelled at that were bred for it. There are lines of GSD that are over the top drivey (I have seen them) and as snappy a Malinois.. and that is not the true temperament of the GSD breed. 

Fact is, the Malinois is also a herding breed that has been selected for non herding traits for protection work. The Maligator you see today is NOT the dog used for herding.. because, again, they were bred away from that. 

I had and currently have German Shepherds with herding behavior. Atka would be a herding MACHINE if I had the money to go there or if I still had my farm. I bought her because she exhibited that behavior when I first saw her. Kazi (w. German working lines) WAS a herding machine and she was also very biddable. 

I have spent considerable time talking with Ms. Nickelsburg about herding and the breed. The over the top drive GSD's used in Ring and SchH are not true to the breed. I have seen some of those dogs and to get them to Aus they use Ecollars on them they are so nutz. The GSD was originally bred to be biddable and to work.. and then be a pleasure to live with. I have seen some so called "working line" GSD's that would be anything BUT those things... and THAT IMO is a real shame. 

No one need agree.

I have been looking for the part of the rules (and it may be a rule change) that allowed titling but not all in the same trial. I know I read it somewhere (ha!). Titling in this manner had to be noted and I think that the dog may have to re-title in one day to move up (something like that...). 

If I find it I will post it. I did not think real hard about it when I read it because I am about 100 miles from a 5 month old puppy and a Schutzhund 1 title.... if you know what I mean...


----------



## ACampbell

Xeph said:


> I like Ring, and think it's an awesome thing to participate in. My concern of course, becomes when GSD people start exhibiting in it and then begin breeding a dog that can perform well in Ring, instead of breeding a dog that is a correct GSD.
> 
> OMG it'd be like black and sable Malinois. AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!


Actually, they do this in France - I know someone who bought a GSD pup out of FR titled parents.

He's a normal GSD; nothing like a Mal. I doubt that it's going to be a "make a GSD like a Mal" venue - it's not that popular and honestly, you're not going to see a lot of GSD's in MR or FR because the Malinois will dominate the sport. 

That being said, I'd buy a FR titled parented pup over one of these "imports" after watching the 2010 Sieger show protection phase - what a joke.


----------



## Xeph

> I doubt that it's going to be a "make a GSD like a Mal" venue - it's not that popular and honestly, you're not going to see a lot of GSD's in MR or FR because the Malinois will dominate the sport.


It wasn't so much the venue itself I meant to comment on. Even in SchH, in the recent years with the change of training methods and the way the judges score, many GSDs are more Malinois like in temperament and exhibition than they are GSD. I couldn't live with a lot of them.



> That being said, I'd buy a FR titled parented pup over one of these "imports" after watching the 2010 Sieger show protection phase - what a joke.


Wholeheartedly agree.


----------



## Yvonne

I agree original purpose of herding and that is why I do not agree with working lines breeding the structure into a mal frame with shorter body and tall legs and no trot. It is also why my puppy was chosen from and HGH titled by Ulf.

They schutzhund does not mean that should be the only criteria by any means but it is a pre courser for obedience and temperament towards greater feats of a working dog. I trained mine with schutzhund group and it was an awesome basis for my work with them in SAR.


----------



## ACampbell

> I have been looking for the part of the rules (and it may be a rule change) that allowed titling but not all in the same trial. I know I read it somewhere (ha!).


That's what they all say! LOL j/k

I have never heard of that at all. I just went digging through some rule books (specifically UScA and AWDF) and can't find anything like that...

Oh, and unfortunately, here is the verdict on the 2011 change to IPO rules:



> From the horse's mouth so to speak (SV)
> 
> Wichtiger Hinweis zur Prüfungssaison 2011 (SV-HG)
> 
> 
> Die geplante neue gemeinsame Prüfungsordnung (WUSV, VDH, FCI) kann zum 01.01.2011 noch nicht eingeführt werden, es gilt weiterhin die bisher gültige Fassung.
> 
> The new common Reglement (WUSV, VDH, FCI) planned for 1.1.2011 will not come into force and the previous valid rules willl apply.
> 
> I've heard it will first come into force in 2012.


 - quoted from someone in the know on another forum.

...YAY, more VA rated GSD's that couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag...seriously, don't believe that, then check out the VA dogs from the Sieger show in Nuremburg...ghastly indeed.


----------



## Elana55

Before indicating the work at either Seiger Show is ghastly, train it (or what you think it should be). Have you considered learning to be a Helper? The helper is KEY to the training. I won't say what is and what is not good work (unless the dog NQs). One of the issues with the training is the demand that the dog have a SchH1 by age 2.. and the GSD breed does not really mature until around 3-4.

Schutzhund is not just a German Shepherd sport.. there are other breeds. I am not a great fan of bully breeds but I watche a Cane Corso the other day put the GSD's to shame. What a NICE dog. 

Yvonne hit the nail on the head BTW. Knows her dogs methinks. If I do breed dogs with Questa as my foundation, I have an ideal in mind. The AKC may not agree with the 'type' and the SchH folks may not agree with the drive I want... but the goal is a sound and solid dog including temperament.. a dog that will work and you can live with and is, beyond that, a joy to live with. A dog sound enough to live for years. 



> many GSDs are more Malinois like in temperament and exhibition than they are GSD. I couldn't live with a lot of them.


Like I said.. the dog that was so over the top to bite that he had to be zapped with an E collar to Aus.... I am sorry, the breed was known for being biddable and a dog that over the top nutz is not showing that very important breed temperament. Fact is, what I have observed are many dogs so over the top I would pull them from training and do something else with them (if they can do something else). Of course, no one wants to admit defeat in this 'sport.' It IS very competitive and to that end I think the dogs and their breeding can suffer if that is the ONLY focus. 

No one need agree and I will take it one step further and say that I am not claiming Expert Status. I just know what I like and what is sound and what my goals are which are, IMO, associated with breed improvment.


----------



## Xeph

> I am sorry, the breed was known for being biddable and a dog that over the top nutz is not showing that very important breed temperament.


The fact that a dog needed the e-collar to out isn't actually saying too much, IMO. Back in the day, they would use much nastier methods to get a dog to out than an e-collar, if the dog refused. A dog needing a correction from the collar doesn't say anything about the WHOLE dog either. It says something about that dog in PART of an exercise.

Being biddable does not automatically equate to "100% obedience all of the time". They're sentient beings. And where the dogs are in the learning process is also a factor. Learning to cap drive is also part of SchH training.



> One of the issues with the training is the demand that the dog have a SchH1 by age 2


And yet, there are many working lines who are not over the top that have their titles by this age that are showing good grips, drive, and nerve

The helper work is key....but when helpers are TOLD that they're only supposed to drive the dog so far, so as NOT to put pressure on the dog, that is not (totally) the helper's fault. That is a lack of training, lack of drive, lack of nerve, bad judging etc.

When a dog barely goes after the "threat", thrashes the sleeve around, and then spits it out and runs away when it's hit with the padded stick....that's not a training issue. No matter how much one wishes it to be.

What's even worse is when that same dog still recieves a high rating.


----------



## Elana55

You did not see the rest of this dog's behavior. This was a nutzo over the top dog in everything... it was just that struck me as it had to be repeated several times before the dog did it w/o the shock. I know there are worse things you can do to dogs... and my next thinking is why would you and if you had to why would you want that dog? Goes back to a dog you can live with... and enjoy.. and work. 

BTW our club helper is a student of Ivan Balabanov... They are friends. He is staying with him in December and training with him for the month. I do not expose my dogs to just anybody when I really need that person to train something. If I am going to learn then I truly do go to the best I can afford to go to. The helper is so very very important in this work. A bad helper can make a mess of a good dog.


----------



## Yvonne

> BTW our club helper is a student of Ivan Balabanov... They are friends. He is staying with him in December and training with him for the month. I do not expose my dogs to just anybody when I really need that person to train something. If I am going to learn then I truly do go to the best I can afford to go to. The helper is so very very important in this work. A bad helper can make a mess of a good dog.


I agree with you completely


So Xeph I am confused. You say you do not like harsh training methods and that a working line dog should be stable and not have any used on them and are naturally able to do these things with calm acceptance yet have vast amounts of drive yet you wish to buy a pup from Eichenluft who supports dog hanging/kicking in the privates in training?



> I emailed Molly and wrote that I know how difficult it is to get people to "step forward" to report what they have witnessed, but that I have in my possession a police report in which Mrs. Brown describes the manual strangulation of a K9 by David Inglis while his wife Debbie kicked the dog in the testicles, EXPECTING THAT SHE WOULD BE INTERESTED IN THIS DOCUMENTATION.
> 
> Molly's response to my email was, "In Schutzhund, training is not supposed to be all fun-fun for the dogs."


Taken from this web page which Molly has never denied saying:

http://www.stoplynching.com/html/denials___justifications.html


My opinion on this type training:
I have never and will never condoned this type of training and can get results from good dogs without them. If a dog does not respond to training then it needs to be culled from your program not beaten to conform to the program. Keep in mind for the last five years I lived down the road from this breeder.


----------



## wvasko

> Elana, what are your sources when you say that the German Shepherd was designed to herd only? To the best of my knowledge they were created from herding types to make one consistent breed, but a breed who's sole purpose was not just to herd, but to work in other venues as an all around working dog as well. Of course, SchH is not working, and SchH was never designed as work for the German Shepherd. It was supposed to be used as a test of character and the breeding worth of the dog.


The statement as I'm reading it says the GSD was started as a herding dog, does not say herding only. The Germans bred/breed working/hunting dogs that are fully functional. English pointers were bred to point, German Shorthair etc dogs were bred to point and retreive. Why have 2 dogs to do a job when just one is necessary. 

Schutzhund clubs come with variable programs because of people involved with the running of these clubs. My experience was with a club that all were expected to help where necessary as some people can learn by just watching but actually doing after watching is a much better program. It's just common sense in my opinion to visit the club a number of times to see what you're getting into. Many join training clubs of any kind but are gone within 3 to 9 months and some within 30 days. 

Once Joe/Josephine average see how much actual work is needed for a dog to track/obey/bite etc the training resolve sometimes weakens and they are gone in the wind. Some clubs decide the turnover is a pain in the butt and are more aloof in people that want to join the ranks. 

A Sch 1 title (and this is a guesstimate) would/should take a minumum of a year (probably longer). Please, not saying it can't be done quicker but the average owner is not gonna get it done. All the rules/books knowledge is great but when the dog/owner meets the actual work is when things happen. I'm just sayin'..


----------



## Xeph

> You say you do not like harsh training methods and that a working line dog should be stable and not have any used on them and are naturally able to do these things with calm acceptance yet have vast amounts of drive yet you wish to buy a pup from Eichenluft who supports dog hanging/kicking in the privates in training?


I do not like harsh training methods for my own dogs, I did not say the second part of what you state. When I was at Molly's I witnessed nothing of the sort. I've read that "article" before. I do know she's done things above and beyond for her dogs, and all that I met of her breedings when I was there this summer were healthy, happy, stable dogs. Me not wanting to use what I feel are harsh methods on my dogs is just that. I cannot control with what others do with their dogs. I need more than somebody making statements to prove abuse.

That said, my breeder really has nothing to do with the discussion at hand ^_^


----------



## Yvonne

> The fact that a dog needed the e-collar to out isn't actually saying too much, IMO. Back in the day, they would use much nastier methods to get a dog to out than an e-collar, if the dog refused. A dog needing a correction from the collar doesn't say anything about the WHOLE dog either. It says something about that dog in PART of an exercise.


This bothered me greatly and put me in mind of it as I have never seen these things in person and would have stopped it had I in all my years of being around dog training for police/search and rescue/ schutzhund.


----------



## Elana55

wvasko said:


> The statement as I'm reading it says the GSD was started as a herding dog, does not say herding only. The Germans bred/breed working/hunting dogs that are fully functional. English pointers were bred to point, German Shorthair etc dogs were bred to point and retreive. Why have 2 dogs to do a job when just one is necessary.
> 
> Schutzhund clubs come with variable programs because of people involved with the running of these clubs. My experience was with a club that all were expected to help where necessary as some people can learn by just watching but actually doing after watching is a much better program. It's just common sense in my opinion to visit the club a number of times to see what you're getting into. Many join training clubs of any kind but are gone within 3 to 9 months and some within 30 days.
> 
> Once Joe/Josephine average see how much actual work is needed for a dog to track/obey/bite etc the training resolve sometimes weakens and they are gone in the wind. Some clubs decide the turnover is a pain in the butt and are more aloof in people that want to join the ranks.
> 
> A Sch 1 title (and this is a guesstimate) would/should take a minumum of a year (probably longer). Please, not saying it can't be done quicker but the average owner is not gonna get it done. All the rules/books knowledge is great but when the dog/owner meets the actual work is when things happen. I'm just sayin'..


As a case in point, the club I am in is made up of many very green and very new members. A few are good and the Club President is experienced. 

So.. to get the SV to title a dog and allow it to breed they require an HGH or a SchH 1 as part of the program and for the dog to show and get scored in conformation she/he must have those titles if the dog is over 24 months old.. and to do that you are starting the dog young and doing the heavy lift stuff after age one.. so most of the heavy work goes into the dog from 12 to 24 months. 

Like I said.. that is a very tough schedule for a breed that matures at age 3-4 years old. Not saying it cannot be done.. just saying it is tough. 

What if you have a wonderful promising dog and the dog needs extra time to mature? Seems to me only a fool would pressure a dog and possibly ruin it. 

Yvonne, thank you for your insight on this thread and thank you for showing us an uglier side to things. That is a track that no one need go down. If you must abuse the dog to get the job done, then you should not be training dogs. 

BTW there was a video on the news one night of handlers of K9's abusing the dogs with hanging. I will say that link gave me the willies. 

If I ever ever ever am told to do this, I will not do it and I will report it...


----------



## ACampbell

> Before indicating the work at either Seiger Show is ghastly, train it (or what you think it should be). Have you considered learning to be a Helper? The helper is KEY to the training. I won't say what is and what is not good work (unless the dog NQs). One of the issues with the training is the demand that the dog have a SchH1 by age 2.. and the GSD breed does not really mature until around 3-4.


LOL, go watch it. This is not helper fault, this is training and lack of ability fault - the dog isn't biting a target that is STILL. I can give you an example of a good decoy who faked a dog, it missed and was run off the field (good decoy doing his job), and the dog got another chance at it...now that's a crying shame, the dog should have been dismissed - he's V rated and being bred (if not VA by now, I'll go check later), by the way. Don't you want that in your lines? Might as well get your title out of a Cracker Jacks box.

Just like Xeph mentioned. 

Sorry, that statement doesn't really hold water, especially in Germany. They have many more trials and clubs with decoys than we do in the US, and let's face it, Germany is smaller than the size of Texas, travel isn't days away to hit a trial because you don't have one locally - it's apples and oranges and should not be compared to what you have here. 

The GSD is a utility dog. Sure it started out with herding breeds, but it should be able to reasonably pass it's own breed test - LEGITIMATELY - no "midnight trials". 

And as for your "you do the helper's job" - I do not have the strength or size to take a hit from a large sized dog, nor will I ever. That's why I'm on the other end of that leash.  My own GSD is nearly as big as I am and if she jumped on me hard, that'd be all she wrote, lol.


----------



## Elana55

Here is a question for you (plural) who are interested in SchH and who have this Expertise (at least seem to on this thread). 

Have any of you trained a dog in Obedience to a CDX (or similar in UKC)? That is the "kinder and gentler" version of the Ob. required for the SchH 1.... which includes retrieve over the jump and wall and on the flat... heeling pattern.. drop in motion etc. etc. 

The CDX is actually easier since it is a retrieve over a high jump that is not more than an inch or so taller than your dog's withers (the SchH jump is higher) and there is no stand or drop from Heel Position (CDX as you know has a drop on recall). The heeling is not as fast (tho I have seen it as intense and fast in Open B for a placing ribbon). 

Question #2 is have you ever put a BH on a dog (the tougher version of an AKC CD)? If you have not put a BH on a dog, could you do that test with the dog you currently have? 

While it is fine to watch others doing bite work and titling in SchH and offering critique, have you laid the foundation in your own training to go there? Remember.. the Obedience must be passed as well as the tracking and bite work. You can fail the entire test by failing the obedience portion (which you can train w/o a club membership etc.). IOW's how is your Heeling and retrieves and drops and sits.. fronts and finishes?

If you want to compete in SchH or join a club (and this applies to ring sports too) what are you doing to lay that very very important foundation of obedience and how far have you gone currently? Have you titled dogs in this area in a more advanced (past Novice) arena? 

Even simpler... Do you think you could take the dog(s) you currently are working with and walk thru a trial with the dog next to you off leash (required in the higher levels of SchH as you must approach the judge with the dog off leash). 

Last, but not least, could your dog do the long stay with you 10 meters away (I think that is what I read) while another dog does the exercise? 

Just wondering..... since there seems to be quite a bit of training expertise here.


----------



## Xeph

Strauss is trained completely through the CDX with the exception of the broad jump (we do not currently have access to one). He can and does complete all the exercises, and he DOES know the SchH exercises out of motion. 

If Jon could memorize the OB pattern, Strauss could get a BH (I have been unable to memorize it >.<) with no issue.

Strauss does not have his CDX #1 because I couldn't get him to quiet himself, which AKC frowns upon, but SchH is much much more forgiving about and #2 money.



> Do you think you could take the dog(s) you currently are working with and walk thru a trial with the dog next to you off leash (required in the higher levels of SchH as you must approach the judge with the dog off leash)


Without issue. Strauss's job requires intense focus, and he passes extreme distractions every day without batting an eye.


I have never agreed that just because somebody does not hold the titles automatically means they do not know what they are talking about (I met a guy at the schutzhund club we visited that has national competitors, and I wouldn't trust his advice as far as I could throw him). The training of the dog shows more about the dog than the title does (which is true across all the venues, and not everybody that trains goes on to title, for various reasons.


----------



## Elana55

Xeph said:


> Strauss is trained completely through the CDX with the exception of the broad jump (we do not currently have access to one).


I built mine.. cost me about $15.. out of pine boards using the AKC Obedience rule book. I have to build a high jump.. probably cost me $20.. maybe a bit more.



> He can and does complete all the exercises, and he DOES know the SchH exercises out of motion.
> 
> If Jon could memorize the OB pattern, Strauss could get a BH (I have been unable to memorize it >.<) with no issue.
> 
> Strauss does not have his CDX #1 because I couldn't get him to quiet himself, which AKC frowns upon, but SchH is much much more forgiving about and #2 money.
> 
> 
> Without issue. Strauss's job requires intense focus, and he passes extreme distractions every day without batting an eye.
> 
> 
> I have never agreed that just because somebody does not hold the titles automatically means they do not know what they are talking about (I met a guy at the schutzhund club we visited that has national competitors, and I wouldn't trust his advice as far as I could throw him). The training of the dog shows more about the dog than the title does (which is true across all the venues, and not everybody that trains goes on to title, for various reasons.


I thought you were thinking of Mirada in SchH? Would you train Strauss in Bite work at his age? The training of the dog says more about the trainer than it does about the dog (quite often) IME. A great dog can be destroyed by a bad trainer and a not so hot dog can be brought along by a wonderful trainer who knows how to show off and capitalize on that dog's strengths. 

I figured Strauss had the focus and I believe he has his CD (correct me if I am wrong). He would have to have the focus to do SD work. 

Not sure if ACampbell or Equinox has done any of the work I discussed with their dogs. Again.. to do advanced stuff you need to lay the footings well.


----------



## Xeph

> I thought you were thinking of Mirada in SchH?


We are, but we need to find a club. We did visit one, and overall felt good about it, but since we're moving in a couple months Jon and I are feeling we should wait until Jersey. I started laying the foundation for heel position last night, when Mirada bought me a ball and was more intense than I'd ever seen her. She loves a LOT of toys, but things that can bounce and move irregularly seem to be her thing. She's already showing to be an equally flashy, but much more "settled" dog in this area, and has a much "quieter" calmer mouth in retrieving objects.



> Would you train Strauss in Bite work at his age?


Full? Probably not. But to let him out and do what he's supposed to and see what we CAN do...sure. He's hit a sleeve more than once, and enjoys it. His grips are a little shallow. Maturity has made him focus a little more on the helper than on the sleeve, and that's genetics working, because I can't teach that, but in the end he probably just wants someone to tug with him.

Strauss does have his CD.



> A great dog can be destroyed by a bad trainer and a not so hot dog can be brought along by a wonderful trainer who knows how to show off and capitalize on that dog's strengths


This is also true. As Mirada gets older, she copes with stress better, and she's turning into a really nice dog, but it's been much harder for me since she is so very different from Strauss. Strauss won't/can't shut up, and the SchH people have actually enjoyed his obedience very much (because he is so "Up" and flashy) and the AKC people frown at me 

Now this is not to say that ALL dogs that do SchH whine and whimper and bark in the heel work. We know this is not true. What is true, I think, is that many dogs DID do this, but more experienced handlers were able to put a cap on it. I have not been able to do that for various reasons. So instead we participate in sports where he is allowed to scream (and in some cases, encouraged).

The goal with Mirada is to put a BH on her, and hopefully some tracking titles. Have to see what happens with her joints before we consider a lot of the other stuff.

Two of my favorite pictures:


















He is, through and through, a working dog. Even with the mish mash of a pedigree he has. A better and more experienced handler could have gotten him through his CDX, and most likely to a UD, much faster with a lot less mess. I'm pretty proud of my Guinea Pig dog though


----------



## wvasko

> So instead we participate in sports where he is allowed to scream (and in some cases, encouraged).


I pretty much stay out of who's training for what, but I got to ask what sports are dogs encouraged to scream.



> I have never agreed that just because somebody does not hold the titles automatically means they do not know what they are talking about (I met a guy at the schutzhund club we visited that has national competitors, and I wouldn't trust his advice as far as I could throw him). The training of the dog shows more about the dog than the title does (which is true across all the venues, and not everybody that trains goes on to title, for various reasons.


I have to disagree because training and handling a dog to a title is what all this silly stuff is about. It's the repartee between dog and trainer/handler and humongous distractions that can go on at any kind of trial that can never be understood by reading books/magazines or even talking to people who have already trained and worked their dog/dogs to a title. If you knew how many times through the decades I have heard from people saying that their dogs could do this or that or the other thing BUT and then I hear a bunch of buts why it isn't/hasn't/won't be done. These are people who I have met in my travels and talked to personally not online people as I have no idea what online people do in real life so I cannot/won't comment on that.

Let's discuss the trainers, these dogs are being trained to do things that are all man made tests, not doggy tests to get through life. Where a good trainer leads, a good dog will follow and a competent trainer will make the pair of them look fantastic. The trainer/handler is the brains of the outfit. (at least I hope so)

Remember there are trainers who can train a dog to walk on water, but cannot handle a dog properly. there are handlers who are great handling but are not good trainers. Then there is the top of the mountain a person who is a good trainer and is also a good handler. 

This above paragraph is just the way I feel about the trainer/handler situation.


----------



## Xeph

Well schutzhund certainly encourages the noise for the protection routine, and he's not yelled at for being loud while in his kennel. He doesn't get yelled at during flyball either (they all "yell" to some degree).


----------



## Elana55

Playing the evil one here I can tell you that I watched a dog get hung (back legs still on the ground) by a very very narrow full choke collar for barking in SchH training. Dog was in a down and was barking continuously. The dog would bark and a handler would lift his front end off the ground choking the dog and when he stopped barking (had to .. could not breath) the dog was let back to earth (in a lie down). He would start to bark again, be lifted up.. and the cycle continued for about 10-15 minutes while the trainer was talking. IMO that dog needs the tainer to take him back a few steps and train for silence in exciting situations (if they can). I cannot approve of hanging a dog.. slowly up and down.. like I saw.

My point is that while barking in the guarding phase is encouraged (but not required) it is not desired during tracking or obedience.. it may be tolerated but is not desired.


----------



## Xeph

Never said it was desired during tracking and obedience, but it's nice to be in an environment where people aren't glaring at me every two seconds because my dog made a noise.

I certainly couldn't be in a club that hung dogs. I am lucky that the clubs I have been to do not train that way.


----------



## Shaina

Elana55 said:


> Here is a question for you (plural) who are interested in SchH and who have this Expertise (at least seem to on this thread).
> 
> Have any of you trained a dog in Obedience to a CDX (or similar in UKC)? That is the "kinder and gentler" version of the Ob. required for the SchH 1.... which includes retrieve over the jump and wall and on the flat... heeling pattern.. drop in motion etc. etc.
> 
> [...]
> 
> Question #2 is have you ever put a BH on a dog (the tougher version of an AKC CD)?


Out of curiosity -- have you?


----------



## Elana55

Shaina said:


> Out of curiosity -- have you?


Atka has her CD and will go for her CDX in the spring. She qualifies now at matches but I want to do more than Q. She is my 'AKC' dog and is working Open and training Utility. Not rally.. I got to say it.. I absolutely hate rally O.

I have taken her thru the entire BH routine and she does it all, including the honor. She does the old routine with a moving down and moving sit.. now they let you stop. No sweat.. but I am not training her for SchH and do not plan to. I might put a BH on her when there is a local trial bit it is not my focus for her and I am not eager to spend the money when I am not goint to pursue the rest. Might try some of the FH stuff. If she was not spayed I would do things differently and she would go for her HGH. She is a herding MACHINE. LOL

Fact is, I am looking at SchH for Questa but I have (more) questions and I want to be sure the club is a good fit. Before I know that I want to ask some of those questions and get straight answers. I have been looking at FH stuff. I do not think Questa has the behaviors to make her a good herding dog.. but I might look at that too. I have trained a dog to herd... worked with her every day for 7 years herding. 

It all about three things:
Time. Money. Trainers/clubs I trust. 

And remember.. if you go back in this thread.. I have never claimed to be an expert.


----------



## Xeph

Nor has anybody else. People seem to like to throw the word "expert" (sarcastically or otherwise) on people who share opinions that differ from others. Having separate ideas and thoughts about an issue doesn't make one an expert, but it doesn't mean they don't know anything either.


----------



## Elana55

Xeph said:


> Nor has anybody else. People seem to like to throw the word "expert" (sarcastically or otherwise) on people who share opinions that differ from others. Having separate ideas and thoughts about an issue doesn't make one an expert, but it doesn't mean they don't know anything either.


The questions I asked did not ask for expertise but successful experience.

One can be well book learned and another can have actual experience. No one can say for a moment that there is a lack of book learning here. It is well touted and stated.

The next question is, OK, y'all done read the book.. now what have y'all done????? 

IOW's if y'all going to critique, is that critique based on the book or your actual 'hands on' been there and done that.. and really I was just asking about the foundation. No one on this thread with the exception of Yvonne and Wvasko has done any actual bite work (including me) or even titled a dog with a CD or a BH (Xeph you and I have titled to CD's and probably could get the BH if we parted with the money to do so). 

Which renders the discussion of bite work and what is good or not largely academic.... with opinions largely based on academia as opposed to hands on experience. 

Academic discussions are not BAD but they are just that.. Academic.

and a little PS... Tonight I laid a track for Questa (5 months old). It had two scent pads, one at the start and one at the turn and two articles. By the time I got to take her to track on it, it was so dark I could not find my start flag..... I got Questa out and she found the start flag scent pad and then took off tracking and found the first article and indicated (lie down) and then found the next scent pad and the turn and took off and indicated the second article... all in the freaking dark (because the dumb handler did not get out there early enough to use the light). She was ahead of me all the way and moving with her head down.. and it took longer to type this discussion of it than it took her to do it... the little devil.


----------



## Xeph

> No one on this thread with the exception of Yvonne and Wvasko has done any actual bite work


But that's not true either. Lack of a title does not mean "lack of having done bitework". ACampbell and I have BOTH done it (and will be doing it more with our next dogs) ACampbell has been fortunate to be able to do it more than I have. My husband is hoping to participate in the next couple years as well.

I have learned a LOT about Strauss in the sessions he has been in, and will learn a lot about Mirada as long as we can find someone that is willing to work her, and work her fairly (please note, this means working her in a way that will not ruin her, nor in a way that coddles her).


----------



## wvasko

> I have learned a LOT about Strauss in the sessions he has been in, and will learn a lot about Mirada as long as we can find someone that is willing to work her, and work her fairly (please note, this means working her in a way that will not ruin her, nor in a way that coddles her).


All pups/dogs when started are coddled, because obviously mentally overpowering a pup/dog is not acceptable. I add the dog because even starting a new but older dog coddling is acceptable. You can separate the chaff from wheat later. You got to have some wheat to work with though. But I'm gonna assume you know this. You do have to look out for macho helpers or those that suffer from the "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" phobia. There is always a little bit of that going around in the bite world. Macho helpers have trouble coddling/starting pups cause it doesn't fit their self image.


----------



## Xeph

> All pups/dogs when started are coddled, because obviously mentally overpowering a pup/dog is not acceptable.


Right, but I'm assuming you know that I mean not coddling her as she gets older and matures. Lots of club helpers work a show line differently "because it's a show line" as opposed to working the dog differently because the dog needs a different approach. Work the dog, not the pedigree.


----------



## wvasko

Xeph said:


> Right, but I'm assuming you know that I mean not coddling her as she gets older and matures. Lots of club helpers work a show line differently "because it's a show line" as opposed to working the dog differently because the dog needs a different approach. Work the dog, not the pedigree.


Well that's your 1st mistake, (assuming) please remember caliber of the man (not brightest bulb in box) Individual dog work is proper program. I would be very skeptical of helper who works dog's lines versus the dog standing in front of him. There could be a diamond in the rough, that stays in the rough because he short changes the work needed. I do believe that in any dog sport you will find the snob/elite element that look down on others. Life indeed is not perfect.


----------



## Elana55

wvasko said:


> Well that's your 1st mistake, (assuming) please remember caliber of the man (not brightest bulb in box) Individual dog work is proper program. I would be very skeptical of helper who works dog's lines versus the dog standing in front of him. There could be a diamond in the rough, that stays in the rough because he short changes the work needed. I do believe that in any dog sport you will find the snob/elite element that look down on others. Life indeed is not perfect.


This. I am already getting 'tude because Questa is considered Show Lines (she looks like a GSD and acts like a GSD, not a Malinois). 

I am not worrying at this point. There is so much foundation to lay.. and in laying that she will show drive. IOW's she has about 4-5 months to go before bite work starts at all (teeth just in). I have a lot of foundation time.... getting the footings in is essential (but you know this Xeph).


----------



## Equinox

Just a warning - got back from my Thanksgiving weekend and only scanned the thread. Not following the discussion too well because I'm half asleep!!



Elana55 said:


> This. I am already getting 'tude because Questa is considered Show Lines (she looks like a GSD and acts like a GSD, not a Malinois).


People will get crap for owning a German show line dog, for owning an American show line dog, and for owning a German working line dog. People get crap for owning a Belgian Malinois, and for owning a Doberman Pinscher, and for owning an American Pit Bull Terrier. I know I have a lovely dog sitting by my feet regardless of his lines, and that's what matters.

Also, not entirely sure what not looking and acting like a Malinois has to do with her lines, and vice versa. But then again, already said that I am not following the train of thought in this thread too well!!


----------



## ACampbell

Equinox said:


> People will get crap for owning a German show line dog, for owning an American show line dog, and for owning a German working line dog. People get crap for owning a Belgian Malinois, and for owning a Doberman Pinscher, and for owning an American Pit Bull Terrier. I know I have a lovely dog sitting by my feet regardless of his lines, and that's what matters.


I just got back to this thread, had a busy weekend out training and then the pup, training this week, and tons of other stuff getting ready to go on vacation.

My training buddy has a range of dogs doing Schutzhund/MR. Two dobes, a West German showline/working lines (and he's totally awesome), and a dutch shepherd - he gets the most crap for the Dobes. But people can talk all they want about his Dobes, his bitch earned her SchH3 and was HOT. That tells me something about my training buddy. Right now, his male Dobe (2 yr old) has his BH, his DS has his MR Brevet - his other Dobe is about a year old now and the GSD is just barely old enough to do the BH (15 months) - he's expecting to trial this spring for the BH and so is the Dobe for his SchH1.

Our training group fell apart last year (and I broke my leg, got in a car accident 2 weeks later, and divorced, lol), and my training friend was driving to Denver 2-3x a week to train - which I cannot afford to do at 180 miles roundtrip for me, at least not including the membership fees, etc. Sometimes, life gets in the way of other goals, but nobody should be put down for not "titling" as long as they continue to train and try.


I haven't titled Lacey, and she won't title in bite work because of that canine being removed - being a lower one and the root system on them can make the bottom jaw weak if removed. By my vets recommendation, time to retire vs. risking breaking her lower jaw/other canine off since the bite won't be even - not an excuse, but a fact of life. Just have to say "well ok, what ELSE can we do". We will still go for our BH and the AD though since neither require biting and we are still in the training phases of the BH - have nice heeling but need more focus and working on the sit/down/stand in motion.
What's the point of getting a BH when we can't go any further? *Because I can.*


----------



## Xeph

> nobody should be put down for not "titling" as long as they continue to train and try.


I wholeheartedly agree!



> What's the point of getting a BH when we can't go any further? Because I can.


Good for you!

It's our hope to put a BH and AD on Mirada as well.


----------

