# Help...I have the Devil's Dog



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I was thrilled to have my former rescue dog returned to me yesterday........until......he went potty in the house 6 times, counter surfed every space he could, bit my fingers when giving treats, drug me through the yard, kept me up all night long barking on and off, lifted his leg on my kitchen table, tore open his remington heavy duty crate, listens to only one command "sit".....and there had better be food involved.......I was about to cry. It has been a little over 24 hours.....and I need advice.

I will never rehome a dog to a relative again. What I thought was going so well wasn't "going anywhere".............he is now 8 months old and as strong as an ox and the size of Abbylynn. It was confessed that my poor little Benny has been spending at least 90% of his time in a crate for the last three months. 

Now we all know I can train a dog.....but should I begin with just building trust before the initial training? (besides the potty training) and giving the poor thing some kind of freedom but using NILIF?

Benny is a BIG Dobie/Lab/Rott/Husky mix mutt.


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## NikoBellic (Sep 29, 2011)

Are you implying that your sister is the devil? 

He is food motivated and has energy that can be eventually transferred to positive behaviours. You know how to train dogs, but sounds like some serious untraining has got to happen. Try to hang on to the yesterdays enthusiasm, you can do it!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

It's so sad when the fosters return and they're in bad shape. 

My answer to your question about whether to hold off on training is "no". This dog needs some tough love now. In your description of his behavior, I don't get the feeling that he is particularly fearful, which is the only reason I could see for trying to build trust up before beginning serious training. It sounds like he's pretty bold already, which screams for NILIF. Btw, I definitely view NILIF as a form of training. Also, keep in mind that trust is built through interacting with a dog in a positive way, and training can be a big part of that. I think people tend to view training as something that a dog would prefer not to do, but when done right, it can be enjoyable for the dog.

Good luck!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Normally I always start strange dogs just as I would a puppy, this is different as you have a history with this dog and I would start him as if he had been gone a day or two. Once the dog realizes where he's at and you are back in driver's seat he may bounce back quicker than you think. 

Another poster mentions tough love and I don't know if you are a tough love trainer type, keep us informed.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you for the advice. Benny and I just had our first training lesson on how to not be biting off my fingers when I treat him. He is definitely FOOD MOTIVATED! The session only lasted 15 minutes but he seems to be paying attention. He is just so hyper! I believe much of that is from being over-crated. I will keep you informed and probably ask for help later on if needed. 
I am not sure what kind of trainer I would be called.......mostly positive.......but I am going to look for the tough love training thread. I will not allow an out of control dog to eat me for breakfast! Lol! 


EDIT: Yeah....my Sister is the Devil!   And....most certainly not a dog trainer!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Another poster mentions tough love and I don't know if you are a tough love trainer type, keep us informed.


What is "tough love" training? I didn't realize I was recommending something specific here. What I meant was just that training should start now, rather than letting him continue to get away with bad behavior until trust is rebuilt.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Although you are asking wvasko.......

I just wanted to add something if anyone is reading with good advice to be given me........

I am not sure about the tough love thing other than just starting intense training personally....there is no real link to that as far as I actually believe.....I have been linking up to reading some things from Ian Dunbar. 

The first thing I was reading up on was bite inhibition because Benny was my rescue whom I took at 4 weeks old to keep him from being culled ( a nicer way of saying PTS) by his Mother's owner. He is still mouthing but does not realize how hard. Either way you look at it.....THAT has to stop asap. I am having to separate my small dogs from Benny because of it. Already, Blu Boy attacked Benny tonight because Benny put his mouth across my arm in play. Now these dogs know each other....but Benny is sending out bad vibes. I would gladly trade up with some potty accidents compared to the mouthing. This is dangerous. Benny has a big mouth full of adult big teeth.

Honestly if I do not see any progress within a weeks time....he is going to the vet because even though I am the one who has monetarily taken care of him all these months and he is up to date on everything except for being neutered this coming March 2012...........I swear this dog needs something to calm himself down..........
He has a crazed look in his eyes! LOl!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm betting he needs lot and lots and LOTS of exercise. A large-breed teen-aged untrained male. . .yup. Once he's tired he may have some more focus. Poor guy has been pent up for so long, a good run would do wonders, I think.


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## jessicass (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'm betting he needs lot and lots and LOTS of exercise. A large-breed teen-aged untrained male. . .yup. Once he's tired he may have some more focus. Poor guy has been pent up for so long, a good run would do wonders, I think.


yeah,i think so


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I believe you are correct..... EXERCISE!!!!!!........he did do much better this morning......did not cry all night..... When uncrating to go out first thing, I made him sit for breakfast ( outside,...as he is a slob!  ).....he sat for food. He went potty like a nice boy........still about ripped my arm out of it's socket dragging me to the house ( wanting back in) and punched me in the face ( leaving a nice welt and toenail hole).....poor baby....I rescued him once and I will do it again.....only this time he stays!


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## osdbmom (Feb 15, 2011)

well....he IS very cute, at least he's got that going for him, its probably saving his life right now, lol. 

He's probably kind of confused about what is going on....new home..did he have other dogs at his previous home? bc he might be very excited about having friends to play with all the time...and you have different rules...its a lot for him to sort out.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

osdbmom said:


> well....he IS very cute, at least he's got that going for him, its probably saving his life right now, lol.
> 
> He's probably kind of confused about what is going on....new home..did he have other dogs at his previous home? bc he might be very excited about having friends to play with all the time...and you have different rules...its a lot for him to sort out.


Benny had Kokomo, an 8 year old Lab mix rescue of mine to play with. I had Kokomo when she was 9 months old and fully trained her before giving her to my Sister. Benny was my rescue at 4 weeks of age, went to live with my Sister at 10 weeks of age,.....she is nothing like me when it comes to dog training.....as is quite evident. Benny knows my other two dogs already. If my Sis would have only been honest with me about all of this months ago.  She let the " cuteness" factor take over reality. 

Yes ,......Benny is going to be a handful to sort out.....way more than I even know I am sure.....and I am still going to wait until he is 1 year old to have him neutered just for his health's sake. I must be a gluten for punishment. I just do not believe in throwing him to the wolves. Like the old saying,...."Where there is a will there is a way"......Pretty much what I live by. 

I feel really bad for him today.....I have to leave him crated to go to the grocery......no other options....he ate the wooden banisters off of my Sister's deck.....he has issues.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> She let the " cuteness" factor take over reality.


For a starter "tough love training" does not let the "cuteness factor take over reality. What to do when tough love training is going on depends on the tough love trainer. No more, no less.


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## Cheese (Feb 10, 2010)

Just curious, but what type of exercise is the dog getting and how much of it? Really seems like a puppy reaching adolescents on top of having lots of energy to burn. You could train the heck out of the dog, but if it is not getting any outlet for it's energy...well, that energy is going to go somewhere.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> For a starter "tough love training" does not let the "cuteness factor take over reality. What to do when tough love training is going on depends on the tough love trainer. No more, no less.



I am just keeping this posted as Benny and I progress......but first........

Just a small rant......I am really upset with my Sister........

From what I understand in my Sister's words......."Benny is so cute. I just love my little Benny Benny.......and I just hit him with the broom when he jumps......I can't do anything with him.....he pulls so hard....no I didn't use the harness you bought.....I can't get him to stand still long enough to put it on......no we aren't taking him for walks.....no I haven't just let him run out in the fenced in yard....I just don't have time after work."

Well......to me Benny was just a cute ornament..........you would have to know her to understand......it is a shame. If I was aware of this I would have taken him back months ago.

This is where reality sets in as far as what I was trying to convey.......nothing was done to help the dog.....just put him in the crate.....out of sight .....out of mind........now Benny is out of control and hyped up from being in a crate from 4 am until whenever anyone decided to let him out.......around 3 pm or maybe 7 pm?

So now tonight after the weekly grocery shopping and having to crate Benny......I took him outside as soon as I got home even before I took groceries out of the vehicle....and put him on a tie-out until finished.....fed him dinner....brought him in....and he literally slammed me into a wall running through the hall. He is out of control. He is a mess. Benny and I tussled with each other to get a harness on after that incident....and I have the bite marks from him not wanting me to put something around his neck. He was not being aggressive....just tussling with me. But I WON! 
We then proceeded to go out in the other room with the other dogs and visit and have some quality time....him tied to ME. This is only day 2 since he came back. Tomorrow is another new day.............and hopefully a better one. 

We are going to make provisions by either fencing in the yard or putting up cable and chain. I cannot run.....but he needs to.

The thing that worries me the most is that Benny does not respond when you call his name....he acts as if he just doesn't hear you? I know he is not deaf. He zooms in on something and he hears nothing else? Now,.....I started with a clicker last evening to try and get his attention.......and with the food.......he pays attention.

What a day!!!!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

In about a week, his personality will stabilize. Even though he's back, he is still in a 'new' home, relying on the rules from your sister's house. Persist and he'll learn your rules fairly quickly. 

I know you know Bite Inhibition, but I'm hoping he has strong Lab tendencies, so I'm re-posting this, which may help:

Some Tweaks to Bite Inhibition (to get him to stop biting when he wants to play):
1. When the pup bites, then yelp. It should sound about like what the pup does when you step on its paw... don't step on his paw for a sample . When you yelp, the pup should startle briefly and stop nipping. Praise and pet. He'll bite.
2. When he bites the second time, Yelp. When he stops, praise and pet. He'll nip again, although it may be a little gentler. ...
3. When he bites a third time, Yelp (see a pattern?). But this time, turn your back for 15 - 30 secs. If he comes around and play bows or barks, then that is an apology. This is important. Accept it, praise and pet... and cringe in expectation of the next nip...
4. When he bites the 4th time, Yelp, then leave the area, placing him in a 2 min. time-out. It is better if you can leave, rather than moving him. Then, return and interact. (He's still hungry...)
5. When he nips the fifth time, yelp, and leave the area, stopping interaction for now.

Pups need to sleep over night in order to learn their lessons. So, keep doing this for 3 days. By the third day, you should notice signficant Bite Inhibition. He may still nip, but it will be softer and he won't draw blood. Keep up the training and make sure that everyone yelps.... Very powerful method.

If you learn the technique, then you can apply the "yelp" to other circumstances, also. I believe that "yelp" is "Please don't do that, I don't like it." in dog communication. I currently use the yelp when my dog plays tug, then runs with the toy, when he fetches and keeps it out of reach or when he takes a treat too quickly....


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> In about a week, his personality will stabilize. Even though he's back, he is still in a 'new' home, relying on the rules from your sister's house. Persist and he'll learn your rules fairly quickly.
> 
> I know you know Bite Inhibition, but I'm hoping he has strong Lab tendencies, so I'm re-posting this, which may help:
> 
> ...


 Thank you for re-posting. It is hard to convey on the internet, but I do appreciate the help that anyone offers.

I have set up the spare room as Benny's room and a training area where Benny and I can be alone without the other dogs and Dad to begin with. I will later slowly introduce distractions. I want the one-on-one time in the first week. I plan on keeping his crate in the living area in the day and in the spare room at night....as I have the other dogs in my room and Dad's room. Later on down the road I will change those arrangements. I cannot cut out the crate completely as I need to go away from time to time and I feel Benny needs to know his crate is a safe place and not punishment. Undoing is so much harder than just beginning. 

I just now retired for the evening. I had a very long play session with Benny tonight in his safe room. When we finished burning up some energy and re-introduced ourselves....Benny and I went into the living area....without the other dogs (they were in bed  ) and had a treat .....and Benny was much calmer.  It has been a long very first real evening for us. I cannot count Thanksgiving day.

Benny is afraid of his crate.....for fear he will not get back out I am sure....he reluctantly went in for the evening and I did have to give him a little pull and a small dog biscuit. I have to earn his trust and allow him to realize his crate is no longer a prison cell.


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## Cheese (Feb 10, 2010)

Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but the dog's only outlet is a tie out? And maybe eventually down the line a fenced in yard to "run" in?

Sorry, but a yard is not exercise or stimulation. That dog needs to get out and actually do something.

As for the bite inhibition, sometimes the yelping method does okay, but for me, I just find it backfires more often than not. The dog gets more riled up from the high pitched noise.

I mean, think about it. You're trying to imitate the sound of a puppy. For starters, you're not a pup or a dog and your dog knows that. Nothing that comes out of you is going to make you look like a dog. Secondly, whenever you talk to your dog in a high pitched voice, they usually get riled up. And lastly, if you've every heard a dog catch a small critter, the critter lets out a high pitched yelp too. So, yelping is really just hit or miss. I personally don't use it. I don't like it.

I do a 3 step bit. First, is redirection. Pup bites you too hard, switch your hand for an appropriate toy and encourage the biting of the toy. If the pup still insists on biting you and not the toy, then you ignore. Stand up, cross your arms, turn your back, don't look at the dog. Ignore them totally, and don't acknowledge them until they've calmed down. Once calm, then re-initiate play/attention and go back to encouraging biting of appropriate toys. That last thing I do is if the pup is just being a holy terror. You tried ignoring, but the dog ends up biting your heels or whatever. Then I use a time out. Put the dog in the crate and go do something else for a bit. Let the dog out once they've settled.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Please take no offense to my post.......I am sorry if you feel this way about the tie out.....but it is not my home and my Dad will make sure the fence is put in to allow Benny to be free of the tie out to go potty on. Not meaning to sound rude......just may come across that way over the internet.  I must be careful about the dogs running free as it is deer season and we live in the woods. Gun season begins Monday here....bow season is ending. I also have three other dogs and their requirements are met.

I have had dogs for over 41 years now and have been training dogs for many years. But I do have to be fair about my Dad's property. I also live out in a rural area in the woods in the middle of nowhere. Lol! Benny will get to run. .......and hike....etc. There are no such thing as dog parks in my neck of the woods or any other options. I also live on a lake. Benny will get to swim if he would like to this coming summer. He can also go on the pontoon or fishing boat if he likes the water. 


I have used all the methods you mention in the past and still currently do. I too have tried the yelp and every dog is an individual....works for some and not for others. I also like to switch the toy for the hands.

Having the internet is great! There are so many different ways and methods available compared to the dinosaur ages from whence I came.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Abbylynn said:


> Benny is afraid of his crate.....for fear he will not get back out I am sure....he reluctantly went in for the evening and I did have to give him a little pull and a small dog biscuit. I have to earn his trust and allow him to realize his crate is no longer a prison cell.


You said he was food motivated. He should have a long-lasting chew in the crate at all times. Kongs are great, but I've found that very food motivated dogs make short work of them, even if they're frozen. I really love Busy Buddy Squirrel Dude because it's like a kong except that rubber prongs hold the food in longer. I use jerky-type treats in there, which expand when they're moistened with saliva, making it even more difficult. This type of toy can keep a food-motivated dog busy for hours, literally. By giving him this type of treat when he's in the crate, you're building a positive association between the food and the crate. 

Even after years of crating Kit when I'm away from home, she still gets Squirrel Dude when she's in the crate. And she LOVES running into her crate at the first sign that I'm leaving the house.

I also agree with Cheese - a tie-out doesn't sound like enough exercise.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I will take your advice for sure on the Busy Buddy Squirrel Dude........but where is it available....on line or a pet supply store? I really need this for him.

I explained the tie-out in the above post....it is a potty thing. Normally I do not have to worry.....but it is hunting season.....don't want any dead dogs who accidentally ran off in the woods....especially one who has NO RECALL.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Abbylynn said:


> I will take your advice for sure on the Busy Buddy Squirrel Dude........but where is it available....on line or a pet supply store? I really need this for him.


I can get them locally, but it will depend on what kind of stores are in your area. I know you can find them online - I bought my first one from Amazon. I'm sure lots of online pet supply places have them. I occasionally replace them because after hours of chewing per day for many months, the rubber can begin to break down a bit. The whole Busy Buddy line of toys is good, but my favorite by far is Squirrel Dude. Here's a pic of Kit enjoying hers. She's learned to use gravity to help her empty it!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong, but the dog's only outlet is a tie out? And maybe eventually down the line a fenced in yard to "run" in?
> 
> Sorry, but a yard is not exercise or stimulation. That dog needs to get out and actually do something.


I realize that there are many ways to train/care/exercise etc but it still has to be handled according to the environment handy. While we would all like to have the areas needed to exercise dogs not all are that fortunate. 

At the very least before this dog can get out and do something he must 1st re-learn some rules and home manners again. 



> Having the internet is great! There are so many different ways and methods available compared to the dinosaur ages from whence I came.


Oh my, somebody else from my era.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Just a couple thoughts since I'm having fun dealing with a foster who has also been excessively crated and not walked etc who is bursting with uncontrolled energy....

Can you leave the harness on him all the time? Then, you can quickly clip his leash on and not give him time to get riled up to play/fight with you.

Does he play fetch? Get a 50-75 ft length of rope and a clip from a farm store (like Tractor Supply) and make a long leash. Make sure it is attached to a harness and not a collar for safety in case he hits the end of the leash. I like to use the spring clips that reduce impact also. Then play fetch outside without having to worry about recall (and of course, the long line is great for training that recall)

If he is so strong and unresponsive that he is dragging you around physically, consider a prong collar. Properly used, you have a lot more control than on most harnesses IMO.

I understand about the hunting season, Chester isn't off leash in hunting season or hunting areas (even out of season) and he has his own little blaze orange vest for safety when on-leash.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

You guys are great!  Tractor supply is my main farm store. Nothing else for at least a 35 mile jaunt. I was thinking the same thing about the rope.....with knots right? That way I have a way to stop him at whatever distance needed with just a foot. In all my years of dogs I have had some strong ones....but Benny is crazy strong. I may be getting older but I am amazingly strong myself......and he has me whooped! 

GottaLuvMutts....thank you for the info. I am definitely calling around to find this Squirrel dude~ I love the pic of Kit too! 

Shell.......I will be curious as to how it goes for your over-crated pup. I wonder why people do not put themselves in the animals place at times..... lock themselves in a crawl space for a few months. Also you read my mind. I left the harness on at a proper tightness so there are no pressure points or sores made. I used the same rule as a collar.

I do have a prong and have never used it. I bought it in case I needed it for Abbylynn as she had the pulling and charging issues when I first rescued her. At the moment I am almost afraid to use it since Benny pulls so hard. I am afraid until his excess energy is under control he could collapse his wind pipe using the prong.

I first started training dogs in 1970 and I only used a primitive choker.  Back then obedience classes were held free and you used a choker as well as pushing your dogs rear to the ground while pulling upwards on the choker to teach the sit command.......nothing like today's training.......and there were some other things they did that today would be deemed as totally wrong-o!  

The hunters are everywhere this year.....thick as molasses. The deer population is at an all time high as was last year. They were given the permission to have 6 deer each two years back. I have bright orange reflective collars for the dogs that I used during bow season.....but gun season is out of the question for hiking. I do have some back roads I can use.


wvasko.......relatively close to the same era.  Lol! Still have the energy and the strength for all of this...just not the lungs: severe copd.  You know the old thought that if you take away an aged person's drivers license.......they may just as well give up........well......that is a parallel to my dogs and myself!  The dogs keep me moving and increase my overall good health.

I always pay close attention to your words of wisdom on training as I am sure it has all been well earned.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

For the rope, you can tie it to a concrete block (depending on how strong you think he is) so that if he reaches the end of the line, the block will move to reduce the impact but will make it far more difficult for him to take off running. Trying a very strong dog to a fixed object like a railing can result in the railing being yanked down 

Adjust the prong so it is snug and high on the neck (just below the ears) but can't over tighten (i.e. can't choke him). Since it tightens down evenly around the neck, it makes it safer on the windpipe than a flat collar. Another option is to have two leads-- one on a harness and one on the prong collar. Use the harness one mostly but when he gets really over the top excited, do a quick tug on the leash attached to the prong. Just a "hey, I'm here, listen to me" wake up.

And my over crated pup just chewed off part of the door frame... after her 40 minute morning walk (she was in my finished porch long enough for me to eat breakfast....) She wasn't so much over-crated in total hours as that when she was out of the crate she was just playing with other dogs in the yard-- no leash walking, no training, no mental focus work etc -- at her previous foster home. That's why she's here with me, to get some manners on her.


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## DELee36 (Nov 27, 2011)

IMO...start training...the training itself builds trust.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Shell said:


> For the rope, you can tie it to a concrete block (depending on how strong you think he is) so that if he reaches the end of the line, the block will move to reduce the impact but will make it far more difficult for him to take off running. Trying a very strong dog to a fixed object like a railing can result in the railing being yanked down
> 
> Adjust the prong so it is snug and high on the neck (just below the ears) but can't over tighten (i.e. can't choke him). Since it tightens down evenly around the neck, it makes it safer on the windpipe than a flat collar. Another option is to have two leads-- one on a harness and one on the prong collar. Use the harness one mostly but when he gets really over the top excited, do a quick tug on the leash attached to the prong. Just a "hey, I'm here, listen to me" wake up.
> 
> And my over crated pup just chewed off part of the door frame... after her 40 minute morning walk (she was in my finished porch long enough for me to eat breakfast....) She wasn't so much over-crated in total hours as that when she was out of the crate she was just playing with other dogs in the yard-- no leash walking, no training, no mental focus work etc -- at her previous foster home. That's why she's here with me, to get some manners on her.


OMG........Benny ate the railings off of the deck at my Sister's house....that is when she decided he couldn't even be put outside. I called her up and told her that he needed to come back to me and he had NO LIFE! He also ate the baseboards and the new dry wall. The morning I called and told her to bring him back he had eaten a tug rope....unsupervised of course. He also ate his plastic food bowl in my house in the matter of seconds. I replaced it with a stainless steel one.  He kept me up again most of the night....tooo much water before bed time. I understand that he previously was put on water rations....and now has most likely a problem thinking he won't get anymore. 

EDIT: Shell.....when you are done with YOUR foster you can come and get this one! Lol!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

DELee36 said:


> IMO...start training...the training itself builds trust.


You are absolutely, IMO correct! :


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I do have a prong and have never used it. I bought it in case I needed it for Abbylynn as she had the pulling and charging issues when I first rescued her. At the moment I am almost afraid to use it since Benny pulls so hard. I am afraid until his excess energy is under control he could collapse his wind pipe using the prong.


Not advising, just throwing this out here. You say you started with choke collar, as I did but I was earlier and choke collars were the weapon of choice then. Now a prong collar the X-large size is approximately an inch to an inch and a quarter wide and this definitely makes it much safer as far as the collapsing of wind pipe is concerned. As I have said before I also double collar using a Marti at same time. This gives you an even wider base for windpipe safety while still allowing some added control over dog. Compared to a choke collar a prong is like a Rolls-Royce.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Not advising, just throwing this out here. You say you started with choke collar, as I did but I was earlier and choke collars were the weapon of choice then. Now a prong collar the X-large size is approximately an inch to an inch and a quarter wide and this definitely makes it much safer as far as the collapsing of wind pipe is concerned. As I have said before I also double collar using a Marti at same time. This gives you an even wider base for windpipe safety while still allowing some added control over dog. Compared to a choke collar a prong is like a Rolls-Royce.


 Thank you for the insight. I can see where the old choker would be more constrictive. I completely understand that you are not advising......in case it is mis-interpreted over the internet.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yes this misinterpreting stuff appears now and then and I usually put the "not advise" disclaimer on replies but even then it sneaks through. I personally believe anything you read online is to be taken with a grain (sack) of salt. (old saying)


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Yes this misinterpreting stuff appears now and then and I usually put the "not advise" disclaimer on replies but even then it sneaks through. I personally believe anything you read online is to be taken with a grain (sack) of salt. (old saying)


You mean like how to catch a red bird?.....put some salt on his tail? LOl!  

Will update on Benny later...................................


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

I googled the squirrel dude to see what it was and had a hard laugh because just yesterday I came across one online and was telling my BF it reminded me of this(not a dog toy):









Busy buddy also makes these:








Which looks suspiciously similar to fun factory's "smart balls".

I wonder which industry is influencing the other?

Sorry I can't be any help with Benny. You sound like a very patient and caring dog person. Good luck


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

OMG....those are adorable....and hilarious..........does make you wonder about the industry :laugh: 

Thank you for the picture of these......now I know what exactly I am looking for! .....and thanks for the luck. 

Have to go now and take care of business.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Here's what you're looking for. They come in 3 sizes. I'd guess med or large for Benny.


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## Cheese (Feb 10, 2010)

Hiking and swimming is what I wanted to hear! 

I just kept reading about the back yard as a place of exercise. I don't care about a back yard. It should never be used as a main staple for exercise. It's great to have a big yard that's fenced in and dogs definitely enjoy it, but the yard gets boring fast. It isn't even comparable to a hike or a swim in the lake. That's why I was so concerned. I thought the dog's only outlet was the backyard!



> I realize that there are many ways to train/care/exercise etc but it still has to be handled according to the environment handy. While we would all like to have the areas needed to exercise dogs not all are that fortunate.


Right, but unless they live on a small island big enough for their house, yard and the water was made of lava, they have plenty of other ways to get the dog out of the yard. A walk...for starters. Even though walks can be boring for some dogs, it's ever changing. They get to check the pee mail, who walked by here, maybe see some different things. A walk always beats the back yard.

Dog parks are irrelevant. You can still find plenty of places to walk your dog, at the very least. If they're up for it, they can bike with the dog or rollerblade with them. There are hundreds of things one can do, and I cannot think of a single living situation in which the only thing somebody has available to them is their back yard. Unless they're under house arrest...


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## Cheese (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm confused as to why they would need a prong.

You shouldn't put a prong on a pulling dog for management. That's asking for trouble. A prong is used as a corrective device. Meant for the handler to check the dog with it. It should not be used in a way to just place it on the dog and let the dog pull till it hurts. That is using this tool wrong, and a tool like a prong can have serious problems if used wrong.

If you want a tool to help you with pulling while you train not to pull, look into no pull harnesses. You don't have to jerk the leash. Honestly, that method is no fun for me or the dog. My arm started hurting and the dog wasn't too happy with it either. I'm so happy I found another way to teach a loose lead. It's much more enjoyable. Instead on focusing on the bad and correcting it, you're setting the dog up to succeed and rewarding it. It gives a much more positive vibe overall and you're not so worried about having to correct all the time because you don't correct, you reward. All tools... no pull harness, prong, choke, etc... are tools used to aid in training. They should not have to be used forever. That's not why they were invented. Their purpose is for when the human is having a hard time in training the dog. They are for the human not the dog, so your goal is to fade them out once training is there. To rely on the tools for the life of the dog is lazy.

Here's a video of how to teach a loose leash. There are many more, but this is the first one I could remember.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Cheese said:


> I'm confused as to why they would need a prong.
> 
> You shouldn't put a prong on a pulling dog for management. That's asking for trouble. A prong is used as a corrective device. Meant for the handler to check the dog with it. It should not be used in a way to just place it on the dog and let the dog pull till it hurts. That is using this tool wrong, and a tool like a prong can have serious problems if used wrong.


I don't think anyone suggested that she just put the prong collar on and then let the dog pull. The dog is over excited and unresponsive to her commands. He is a young pup with no training that is very strong. For one, most of the "no pull" harnesses that I have seen would do nothing as he could easily just pull the leash right out of her hands. The prong collar is one OPTION to use to give the dog a minor wake-up call when he is over excited. Properly used, it does NOT hurt (yes, I tested it on my own leg) and can be very effective in breaking through that kind of glazed mind set.



> d I cannot think of a single living situation in which the only thing somebody has available to them is their back yard. Unless they're under house arrest...


The elderly, ill or disabled often have trouble walking their dogs regularly; particularly in the winter when snow and ice can make walking on uncleared/partially cleared sidewalks very dangerous. Even a young active owner may have times when the weather precludes safe neighborhood walks or they may have a temporary illness or injury like a broken leg that leaves them with yard play time as their exercise option. Ideally, friends or family could help out or they have the finances for a dog walker or doggie daycare (which not every dog is suited for) but unfortunately those aren't options for everyone so sometimes they are stuck with yard time (and creative inside training and exercise).


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Cheese said:


> I'm confused as to why they would need a prong.
> 
> You shouldn't put a prong on a pulling dog for management. That's asking for trouble. A prong is used as a corrective device. Meant for the handler to check the dog with it. It should not be used in a way to just place it on the dog and let the dog pull till it hurts. That is using this tool wrong, and a tool like a prong can have serious problems if used wrong.
> 
> ...


Checking in before I make dinner......thank you for the video Cheese. Was that you training? It looks amazingly simple.

I do have a clicker as Abbylynn and I are clicker training. I started lesson one introducing Benny to the clicker yesterday. His rear slams the ground for a treat. 

I used the harness (regular type ) and Benny is responding to it. We went out for a walk for a while this afternoon and I can see a difference. I really should have taken the clicker with me. But this was a trial run just to see what the harness would do for him. I hooked a regular buckle type ( not snap-in ) Remington collar to the harness and the lead just in case anything broke. We will be taking the clicker with us from now on.

I firmly believe he has the ability to learn but not sure at what rate just yet. He did initiate play once today instead of me being first. This is only day 3-1/2.

I can see some fear issues with Benny himself regarding my other dogs and am slowly introducing them again...........as they know each other but have not lived together for months. That is a whole other ball game. The other three are however, not aggressive towards Benny.

From what I have observed up to now is that Benny seems to need much confidence building. I can give him that.


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## Papa Deuce (Mar 26, 2007)

And I thought I had it bad because mine occasionally "goes" in the house, and I find her sleeping on furniture quite often... But the furniture thing will never get fixed, as my wife call the puppy up to lay next to her several times a day.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Papa Deuce said:


> And I thought I had it bad because mine occasionally "goes" in the house, and I find her sleeping on furniture quite often... But the furniture thing will never get fixed, as my wife call the puppy up to lay next to her several times a day.


 Wish I had it that good right now! Lol! I am so glad I can laugh at this stuff.....someone else probably would have given up and he would be in the shelter about now.

Today was better than yesterday. I just finished for the evening. Whew!

Benny did lift his leg three times on the kitchen linoleum ( better than carpet). Before I left him go to his other home I had him paper trained in that same room. I just wonder if he remembers and uses the linoleum? Is that even possible? I don't care as long as it isn't the carpet.  It WILL get better.

He settled down a bit tonight and actually lay down at my feet. You see......I have not seen him sit or lay for the last three days......no kidding.....this dog STANDS non stop? This must be h#@&^% for him to be like this. Again.....it WILL get better.

I played some tug with him before bed time and made sure he ALWAYS was the winner. He just seems so confused.  Poor Benny.

Tomorrow is another day and I hope Benny allows me some sleep tonight.


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## NikoBellic (Sep 29, 2011)

Hang in there!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Well........day 4.........

Benny let me sleep all night. His crate was clean. He just chewed his harness off as I was making morning coffee! NOW WHAT!!!!!

What kind of harness can he possibly have that he cannot reach the strap between his front legs? HELP!!!


Too late to worry about it now....maybe I had the strap too loose? But I could not see any way to tighten it up.


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

I just did some googling around and while I couldn't find a chew-proof harness, I did find this: http://lupinepet.com/

"Seems crazy but we’re not kidding! Whether Spot thinks his collar is more fun to chew than his bone, Fido prefers to walk himself or Fluffy seems to like the ‘feather boa’ look, we’re gonna replace it. No return shipping, no receipt, no questions asked! It’s that simple! And the best part? Your replacement goes back in the mail the next business day after the damaged item is received. How, you ask?"

They have harnesses on their site...I might contact them just to check and make sure their harnesses are covered under the destructo-dog guarantee, but that might save you some cash if you can't get him to stop chewing harnesses. Other than that, I'd just never leave the harness on him when he's not outside using it, or when you're not watching and prepared to correct him the second he starts chewing.

I did see lots of guaranteed chew-proof collars and leashes in my googling escapade. Good luck!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you Red Fraggle for taking the time to look it up and post! 

I just keep checking stuff in between training and walking and potty times and all that good puppy stuff! 


EDIT: I just had to add this to this post.....Benny is for the first time since Thanksgiving Day.....taking a real nap! Yeeaaaa!!!!! He is feeling more at ease!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Abbylynn said:


> Although you are asking wvasko.......
> 
> I just wanted to add something if anyone is reading with good advice to be given me........
> 
> ...


This dog needs a dOg like Izze who also has a mouth of very big adult teeth & is a cattle dog so she is bred & is used to taking on animals bigger then she is. Lol here I was complaining about Jo's little indescressions , now they don't seem so bad lol. I'm sure that some of this has to do with his age also.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> This dog needs a dOg like Izze who also has a mouth of very big adult teeth & is a cattle dog so she is bred & is used to taking on animals bigger then she is. Lol here I was complaining about Jo's little indescressions , now they don't seem so bad lol. I'm sure that some of this has to do with his age also.


Lol! This post just made my day!  I got to laugh once today! ......... Teenager Benny Benny!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

RE: eating through deck and through collar... sounds like a goat! I think that Bennie must be large part Lab!!!

If I am Mr. Obvious, get him some more stuffed Kongs... and see if you can find a friend for him to tussle with to help dissipate some of the infinite energy....


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> RE: eating through deck and through collar... sounds like a goat! I think that Bennie must be large part Lab!!!
> 
> If I am Mr. Obvious, get him some more stuffed Kongs... and see if you can find a friend for him to tussle with to help dissipate some of the infinite energy....


I did something right! Yeeeaaa!!! : Benny is on the right....little monster!


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## oldhounddog (May 31, 2010)

AbbyLynn ,

From reading some of Benny’s history and your description of his chewing and anxious behavior , it is obvious that your assumptions are correct about the over crating and little human interaction. The destructive chewing symptoms that Benny presents would suggest anxiety from being rejected and left alone and perhaps in his mind being punished.
The high level of energy and no focus are the result of more stimulation than he can handle at one time , and , perhaps a little fear that the crate isolation may return. When all of this is packaged into a move to a new environment , the resulting initial excitement would be expected. I have seen this many times with my rescue dogs and the good news it is very fixable. I know your plate is full and winter is right on your door steps and very soon outside work will become difficult so I will cut to the chase. As you know , I am not a trainer and do not profess to be one , however , I will offer some food for thought , from the perspective of an oldhound weary from many miles of travel down these same roads.

The heavy pulling is very easy to correct in most cases: I use a Herm Sprenger original prong collar , properly sized and fitted , leash on active loop with a 6 inch jumper with snap connectors to a Martingale collar for my backup placed lower down on the dogs neck for safety and better control along with a six foot leash. For this application the prong collar will be self correcting and Benny will figure it out very quickly.

Using this setup with short walks and training with food rewards should give you what you want in regards to correcting the pulling behavior. IMO.
This has worked for me over the years many times and has never taken over a week to correct and switch to the Martindale collar only. I always use a backup collar , so when using the Martingale for continued training , a flat buckle type collar is placed lower on dog’s neck with six inch jumper connector between the two collars.

I think the above picture with AbbyLynn and Benny shows you are on the right track. Benny will soon realize he has a loving home and in time the problem behavior will dissolve away. Continued care coupled with regular consistent training like you have used so successfully with AbbyLynn will work to restore Benny’s confidence and sense of belonging and feeling safe.

Good Luck.

oldhounddog


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

oldhounddog - Thank you for the vote of confidence and the insight.  ...... 

This is day 5........clean crate.....no barking all night.......Benny went to the door to go outside and stood still to have the lead attached.......this is a major win!  I have trained all my dogs to go to the top step outside in the attached garage to have their lead put on........Benny did this once....I was not quick enough, but he is getting it!

We went out for potty and a walk....came back and fed him breakfast....went back out.....came in and played.......had to crate to tend to the other three.....no problems. He is accepting that short crating time means rewards. I always give treats. Once I am finished with myself....we will start all over again. I wish it weren't raining so much. Too much mud! I will welcome the snow! Lol! :

If Benny's personality is much Lab, maybe this explains his desire to be hungry all the time?.....like hanksimon said.  But this is a blessing in disguise. I bought teeny tiny treats so Benny doesn't get over weight. He will be neutered in March 2011 as he will be a year old. He knows Abbylynn is a female.  She is spayed. The other two boys are neutered. Benny is next!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I am just wondering.....if anyone is still reading this thread and would know.......I have three crates. I am using one secluded in Benny's room just for over night. I am using one for Benny during the day for his short term naps in the living room/kitchen area where he can see me. I have one in the basement in my quarters I use for Abbylynn for overnight. If I were to put Abbylynn and Benny next to each other in separate crates in my room....would this help reduce the fear Benny has for the crate....and also keep him feeling safer .....as I sleep in that living room/bedroom combo? I also keep the television on most of the night.

Any suggestions? I wanted to put him in the crate in the night-time room ( his room ) for only 5 minutes....and he got frightened beyond my control.......I could not even remotely get him to go in....even with a treat.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

You know whats more important than asking here, jump in and try it. You have nothing to lose cause you will find out quickly. I would let Ben watch other dog going in and then pop him in and see results. You are there and I don't mean anything rude, it's just better you see what's what. This is how you learn, some dogs no doubt will feel comforted and some dogs not and all the variables in between.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

OK.....I will just try it!  This is the first time I have ever had 4 dogs at one time! This is my limit for sure! Lol!


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## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

Everyone I know puts their pet crates next to their other pet crates - so as long as the dogs get along


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> OK.....I will just try it!  This is the first time I have ever had 4 dogs at one time! This is my limit for sure! Lol!


I was gonna say something about you being over dogged but decided not to because only you know what you can handle. The good thing is having a number of dogs adds to your dog care/training experience. There is no better way to find out what you should do with dogs, than doing stuff with dogs.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I was gonna say something about you being over dogged but decided not to because only you know what you can handle. The good thing is having a number of dogs adds to your dog care/training experience. There is no better way to find out what you should do with dogs, than doing stuff with dogs.


You are absolutely correct! I am over-dogged. It is getting better......but Benny ran away for about 5 minutes into the woods......my fault.....I was switching leads and was not quick enough....but Benny did return as I think he knows where his meals are coming from!

Abbylynn and Benny have been playing for about an hour non-stop.....no lifting legs today. 

My Sister's youngest Daughter called me tonight and asked for a puppy for Christmas..........I am sure you know what I had to say about all that!.....in a nice way though. I told her never and to wait until she is on her own and an adult.....her Mom is not a dog person and has not the time.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Day 5 ......

The brighter side ... No barking all night ... clean crate ... Benny is able to stay calmer while being loose in the house with the other three dogs ... although I remove the two small dogs for a bit so they are not accidentally injured. He is able to lay down and just relax a bit in between the playing with Abbylynn.

He is now taller than Abbylynn ( now that he can stand still for me to actually take notice. ) He must be well over 60 pounds. Abbylynn is almost that.

On the other side of things ...... I keep dog food in a huge metal trash can ...... I get his food into the bowl and on my way down the hall Benny hits it and it is everywhere. Now he is scarfing up dry dog food from all over the carpet, not what I had intended for his breakfast. This is at 6 am. I had already taken him to the potty ...... now I am definitely not quick enough ... Benny runs into the kitchen and poops.  OK ... eating takes place outside from now on ... at least for a while. 

Tonight I will begin the crating next to each other ... we will see.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Once the dog realizes where he's at and you are back in driver's seat he may bounce back quicker than you think.


Remember I said that way back 5 days ago, now one of the problems is that you must not think you are in driver's seat yet. Benny is getting devious and attacking from different directions. You must treat him as a baby puppy, but a very large baby puppy, no more, no less, but a pup with a strange lulling weapon that tricks you into dropping your guard. Act accordingly and protect yourself and home


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Remember I said that way back 5 days ago, now one of the problems is that you must not think you are in driver's seat yet. Benny is getting devious and attacking from different directions. You must treat him as a baby puppy, but a very large baby puppy, no more, no less, but a pup with a strange lulling weapon that tricks you into dropping your guard. Act accordingly and protect yourself and home


Thank you ... I will do so accordingly ... good call wvasko!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

1. Well think about it, people love their dogs and sometimes have a problem thinking that, and because of thinking that the dogs are just not gonna do more bad things. To the dogs these are not bad things they are just being dogs.

2. Sometimes we want quicker, especially nowadays, you turn on TV and there are many commercials touting the speed of their products. It's a virtual brainwashing on speed and I think sometimes there is a bleed over to people training their dogs. The problem is dogs only use speed when they're chasing something, not always when they are learning something.

3. Time is a valuable weapon in the doggy tool training/adjusting bag. I know we want bad habits to leave quickly but what we want is not always possible.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

The newest inside game this morning ...... MUCH supervised! Wish I had a real camera!

EDIT: Benny takes leaps and bounds over furniture. This is new.

He also chases cars ... as I was just informed. We will be using the fields to walk in for now.

I was also informed he likes to chase the wild animals into the woods. He must have some herder in him? 

But right now he is going to have to watch me make some Christmas cookies and take a nap.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I like to see two dogs tussling with large wolf-toothed mouths.... I get the feeling that this indicates good bite inhibition that won't be used in anger.

If Benny runs away and you're close enough, then call his name and run the other direction, and he may chase you.... obviously you can't do this if he is in the field and you're on the stairs.

And, keep listening to the advice already given... you can't argue with experience that includes training stegosauruses


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> And, keep listening to the advice already given... you can't argue with experience that includes training stegosauruses


Yes indeed, but I became a legend in my own mind for my work with Brontosaurus & Tyrannosaurus groups.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> I like to see two dogs tussling with large wolf-toothed mouths.... I get the feeling that this indicates good bite inhibition that won't be used in anger.
> 
> If Benny runs away and you're close enough, then call his name and run the other direction, and he may chase you.... obviously you can't do this if he is in the field and you're on the stairs.
> 
> And, keep listening to the advice already given... you can't argue with experience that includes training stegosauruses


I most certainly will listen to the good advice! 

I have been crating Benny for a half an hour, then un-crating for a half an hour,...increasing his time out of the crate a little at a time for the last five days.....when we are in the house of course. This doesn't include our outside activities. Tonight I allowed him to have free run of the house for one and one half hours ... and considering it is Benny, he did very well. He only counter surfed a couple of times. He was jumping over the big footstool and on to the couch ... and tried to grab my glass of soda from the end table. This is an improvement.

Benny comes when he hears the clicker now. I make him sit for everything that he wants or I wish for him to have or do. He is getting the idea. He is now making eye contact more and is initiating play time with me. He loves toys that squeak. He loves the tug ropes. I now know my tools. ... besides FOOD that is.

Benny is getting better about going to the door and allowing the lead to be hooked to his collar. He did not like this for some reason? Maybe the kids used to pull on him or something? Who knows. He is not dragging me through the yard as much. He only did it once tonight because he wanted to get to an area to go potty quickly. Still, this is an improvement.

He got a few crumbs of Christmas sugar cookies when I made them this afternoon. He was a happy pup! 

Don't get me wrong ...... I know we have a very long ways to go. I am just pleased to see he actually has something between his ears besides saw dust. 

EDIT: Day 6 ... 

I tried taking the other three dogs out to potty first and Benny last ...... not a good idea ....wet crate!  Then Benny threw up the plastic bowl pieces and some kind of plastic orange fluorescent thing he must have eaten at the other house. He drank water too fast ...and threw it up too. Hopefully the goat is empty now. He ate his breakfast just fine. He is now resting after making me clean everywhere this morning. It is 8:38 am and just maybe I can make the morning coffee and relax for a few minutes. I began at 6:15 am. 

The bright orange thing was a piece of his collar.......it is on his neck....he must also be a Houdini.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

OK.....this is the day I said I must see a difference in Benny's behavior.........day 7...........

He did not bark all night or early this morning.......clean crate.........

I see a remarkable difference in just one week. I am not going to report on Benny any more unless he does something outlandish. I went to the beginning of my thread and re-read the entire thing........

I swear Benny was smiling last night before bed.  I swore if he was impossible for me that I would find him a home with someone much younger than myself and of course be 100% honest with the person about his troubles........and as usual take him back if he did not work out......but I guess Benny really wants to stay............he is being a better boy. 


EDIT: I just had to edit this because as I was shopping for the dog food today at TSC.....I bought a nice soft horse lead......for Benny.....instead of a dog leash......my hands won't hurt.....and there is NO way he can break the brass clip!  This will be great for training!


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## Pbever (Dec 2, 2011)

One trick I recommend for potty training is: Whenever your dog is outside and goes to the bathroom, say "good potty", eventually whenever you say "potty" he will go.

For walking, whenever he pulls stop moving, try calling his name, (if that does not work make clicking sounds because saying his name over and over again with no response will teach him to ignore you) wait till he stops pulling, click (make sure to have a clicker) and give him a treat. Eventually he won't pull on the leash.

For "come" have a couple of your friends hold him down, have some sort of toy and just get him all crazy, walk away then say "come" right after your friends release him.

For hand-signals put a treat in your hand, make a fist, then position your arm downwards and DO IT RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIM.

Anyways, hopes this helps! good luck with your dog!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Pbever - Thanks for the advice.....everything helps. 

Whoever may be reading this.......I tell you, that soft horse lead ( rope lead ) is the greatest thing I have ever used for a big puller like Benny.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I always make training leads that owners get when they pick up their dogs 5/8ths inch Nylon cord brass clamp and brass dog snap. It's soft and large enough so that it's very easy to use/hold.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I always make training leads that owners get when they pick up their dogs 5/8ths inch Nylon cord brass clamp and brass dog snap. It's soft and large enough so that it's very easy to use/hold.


This is what I bought ... much like your's probably. It was not all that expensive: at TSC, actually cheaper than a dog leash.  It is about 1 inch thick. I just tied a loop on the end.

It is nice of you to make those for your clients.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Abbylynn said:


> This is what I bought ... much like your's probably. It was not all that expensive: at TSC, actually cheaper than a dog leash.  It is about 1 inch thick. I just tied a loop on the end.
> 
> It is nice of you to make those for your clients.


TSC is great; as something of an aside, lots of horse products are either just like or even better than dog products and generally cheaper. Brushes and combs for example, shampoos, lead ropes, storage bins, buckets, even some medicines are labeled for both equine and canine use


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Shell said:


> TSC is great; as something of an aside, lots of horse products are either just like or even better than dog products and generally cheaper. Brushes and combs for example, shampoos, lead ropes, storage bins, buckets, even some medicines are labeled for both equine and canine use


You are certainly correct on that!  I always wanted a horse of my own...never did....never will....too late in life for that....but I always browse the horse products for fun. I am going to check out the combs and brushes too. You know, for the money they seem to be better made than the dog products. The lead I bought was $9.99.....at a pet supply store...it would have been double that price I am almost positive.  Even the horse toys look interesting....maybe harder to destroy! LOl!

I am going to check out the meds sometime.....haven't done that yet. I do use bag balm for rashes and things.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> This is what I bought ... much like your's probably. It was not all that expensive: at TSC, actually cheaper than a dog leash.  It is about 1 inch thick. I just tied a loop on the end.
> 
> It is nice of you to make those for your clients.


Yes, I get my stuff at Farm & Fleet, 42 ft of cord 6 clamps, 6 snaps and I got 6 leads I just tie a knot on end of lead so a loop is not necessary. I also use the Bag Balm for many things.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Yes, I get my stuff at Farm & Fleet, 42 ft of cord 6 clamps, 6 snaps and I got 6 leads I just tie a knot on end of lead so a loop is not necessary. I also use the Bag Balm for many things.


I HAD to tie a loop ... to hang on with both hands!!! LOL!!!  Actually he is getting somewhat better with the pulling. It is still going to take some time. I have not decided on another harness yet......being he eats them when I am not looking. I was thinking maybe a leather one? I also do not want to go to the expense of one if he is going to eat the thing. I could use the extra money for other things.....like his neuter in March. Do you think I am waiting too long for that? Honest opinion.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Abbylynn said:


> You are certainly correct on that!  I always wanted a horse of my own...never did....never will....too late in life for that....but I always browse the horse products for fun. I am going to check out the combs and brushes too. You know, for the money they seem to be better made than the dog products. The lead I bought was $9.99.....at a pet supply store...it would have been double that price I am almost positive.  Even the horse toys look interesting....maybe harder to destroy! LOl!
> 
> I am going to check out the meds sometime.....haven't done that yet. I do use bag balm for rashes and things.


I like the rubber curry comb made for foals and ponies (so, smaller and a bit softer), great for shedding on short coated dogs. Something like $1.99 compared to the one at the pet store shaped like a dog for like $6.99. Brush in circles, avoid the legs and face, and its like a nice massage for them.

Some people buy the powdered glucosamine supplement to use for their large dogs since its cheaper than the dog chew pills of the same stuff. Just print the ingredient list of a dog brand and compare to the horse brand. Some stuff will actually say "For dogs too" on it. Topical meds are another good cross-over use, basic wound cleaning stuff like betadine and things like vet wrap are much cheaper.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Shell said:


> I like the rubber curry comb made for foals and ponies (so, smaller and a bit softer), great for shedding on short coated dogs. Something like $1.99 compared to the one at the pet store shaped like a dog for like $6.99. Brush in circles, avoid the legs and face, and its like a nice massage for them.
> 
> Some people buy the powdered glucosamine supplement to use for their large dogs since its cheaper than the dog chew pills of the same stuff. Just print the ingredient list of a dog brand and compare to the horse brand. Some stuff will actually say "For dogs too" on it. Topical meds are another good cross-over use, basic wound cleaning stuff like betadine and things like vet wrap are much cheaper.


Thank you so much for the info.....having four dogs this is very helpful.  Some dog specific meds are outrageously priced. I use (per vet) human grade fish oil and vitamin E. Big price difference on the amount of each. I can purchase 400 soft gels of fish oil for approximately $10.  ( purified to eliminate mercury)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Do you think I am waiting too long for that? Honest opinion.


Only time will tell, different dogs, different results but It's one of those things that if it does not help, it will not hurt and at the very least less worries in the future.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

It really is a matter of choice. I neutered mine at 6 mos... then he turned into a Tasmanian Devil Dog for the next two weeks.... because I couldn't exercise him for a week or two after surgery. The only guarantee is that a neutered dog cannot sire pups... everything else is up to the dog and to training. 

.... I think I just said the same thing that wvasko did... only using more words


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I believe I am going to have him neutered in January ... if there is an opening. I think there should be. Like you all say, it is one more less problem on down the road. All my other ones are spayed and neutered. I am not looking forward to the inability to exercise Benny......UUGGGGH!!! 

Saturday is always grocery shopping day and we have to go quite a distance......therefore we are gone for quite a while......5-6 hours. Benny had to be in his crate today.....OMG!!! He was a basket case when I got home and let him out! Poor thing probably had flashbacks from his previous home life. I kept him up late to make up for it.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Ok....this is day 12...I believe

Benny is slowly improving. He sits for ... a drink of water, meals, treats, putting on the leash, to open the door, ... without verbal instruction. 

He still leaps on and off of the couch....but we are working on it. 

He has graduated to 2 hours out of the crate and then 1/2 hour in the crate or longer if napping. 

He seems to have stopped lifting his leg inside the house and has not run to the basement to poo. His crate has remained dry and clean 24/7 for at least five days in a row. He had a small accident once in his crate in the day time.  Too much water at once! I am trying to show him that his water will always be there for him and he does not need to worry that it is going to be rationed.

I forgot to add that Benny had his first real heel training yesterday....and I went from him dragging me to having to pull him along. The choker scared him to death.  I finally was able to convince him it was all good and he was getting the hang of it somewhere in between being behind me and ahead of me. He is also learning the command "wait" fairly well. Things are beginning to sink in that big head of his. Lol!  I MUST use the choker because he is just toooo darn strong for me to handle.

Abbylynn is being such a good good girl and really helping me keep Benny in check. She is finishing teaching him his bite inhibition. I just Love her to death! 

12 days ago....I could not Lol about much of anything he did. 

His feeding habits are slowly improving...he is not inhaling his food as quickly....once again he is being taught his food will always be there and on " schedule " and not whenever. 

He still has a problem focusing when he is busy having selective( so it seems) hearing. Once he is zoomed in on something he wants to do....there is no stopping him. I have to crate him as a time - out or he will seriously injure someone or something.....he is soooo wild!!! 

So, I resorted to giving Benny two " Vet's Best " natural formula Comfort Calm tablets per day one hour before a training session to help us through the next few weeks. He seems to still have some anxiety issues. This will not be long term for us to use......just for a bit so he can focus. It can be given every 6-8 hours as needed, but I do not feel this is necessary. It is 5-hydroxytryptophan 25 mg and valerian root 25 mg.

When I schedule Benny for his neuter I am also going to ask about his inability to be calm and see if he may have an underlying medical problem or even ocd ... you never know....he has had a rough start in life as it is. Poor Benny. 

Also.....I am still using a clicker.


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## Mic Cheque (Nov 18, 2011)

Abbylynn said:


> I was thrilled to have my former rescue dog returned to me yesterday........until......he went potty in the house 6 times, counter surfed every space he could, bit my fingers when giving treats, drug me through the yard, kept me up all night long barking on and off, lifted his leg on my kitchen table, tore open his remington heavy duty crate, listens to only one command "sit".....and there had better be food involved.......I was about to cry. It has been a little over 24 hours.....and I need advice.
> 
> I will never rehome a dog to a relative again. What I thought was going so well wasn't "going anywhere".............he is now 8 months old and as strong as an ox and the size of Abbylynn. It was confessed that my poor little Benny has been spending at least 90% of his time in a crate for the last three months.
> 
> ...


Would you be so kind as to enlighten this noobie as to what "NILIF" is?


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Mic Cheque said:


> Would you be so kind as to enlighten this noobie as to what "NILIF" is?


"Nothing in Life is Free".....you can find a sticky on it in the dog training forum I believe. 

In other terms....I make sure my dogs understand that everything good comes from me and they must earn their rewards.  An example for me would be.....if you want this treat....you must sit first..... etc.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

How long did you have him at 1st.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> How long did you have him at 1st.


I had Benny from the age of 4 weeks until he was 10 weeks old and then he went to live with my Sister who swore she loved him soooo much.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> I had Benny from the age of 4 weeks until he was 10 weeks old and then he went to live with my Sister who swore she loved him soooo much.


Interesting, I'm thinking in 3 months time Ben's gonna be a changed dog, look at it this way stability of home life is good for all beings dogs/cats/people. I'm just sayin'...


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Interesting, I'm thinking in 3 months time Ben's gonna be a changed dog, look at it this way stability of home life is good for all beings dogs/cats/people. I'm just sayin'...


 I am sure you are absolutely correct......you have been on the money so far! Lol! ........ you are wise......  

If he just was not sooooo strong! This is the hardest part for me....and I am not a weakling either. Older....but stronger than my three younger siblings. Lol!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> I am sure you are absolutely correct......you have been on the money so far! Lol! ........ you are wise......
> 
> If he just was not sooooo strong! This is the hardest part for me....and I am not a weakling either. Older....but stronger than my three younger siblings. Lol!


You have already tried and are using a choke, a prong is more humane since it is wider and easier on throat just suppose you got one and tried it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained it can be removed as quickly as it is put on. But I would wait another month just to let him get more adapted to new home. As I've said before time is a valuable. weapon.

Who knows another month and walking problem may work itself out and then prong won't be needed.

Keep one thought, I'm as adept at making mistakes as anybody else with a dog I can't read so act accordingly.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> You have already tried and are using a choke, a prong is more humane since it is wider and easier on throat just suppose you got one and tried it. Nothing ventured, nothing gained it can be removed as quickly as it is put on. But I would wait another month just to let him get more adapted to new home. As I've said before time is a valuable. weapon.
> 
> Who knows another month and walking problem may work itself out and then prong won't be needed.


I will go with the prong....in a month...as I have one and have never used it....providing Benny is still giving me my run for the money. I will just use the regular nylon collar for now for every day use when not training " Heel " You are more than likely correct about the settling in thing.  before the advanced training....... 

I did go ice skating across the bare cement garage floor a little bit ago......didn't have my shoes on yet and the big garage door was up.....Benny bolted for the back yard while on leash... Lol!  Socks are hazardous!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

B/c of my experience with choke and prong, I don't usually recommend them. However, I do prefer the prong. ... But, I have observed that strong dogs can get used to the prong (or choke) after a month....because they realize they are not in pain ... in the hands of the average user. On the other hand, I've watched experts train a dog with nearly no real discomfort... I don't have that kind of timing.

Re: "Once he is zoomed in on something he wants to do....there is no stopping him." One approach is to be aware of the environment and try to anticipate the distraction, then distract him, asking him to sit, and treat... before he focuses. In addition, you can try to slowly introduce him to the distraction from a distance, before he gets to his reactive threshold, and give him a treat for paying attention to you (One term for this is Amygdala hijack... with lots of Google entries)... You can clicker train him to look at you, rather than look at the distant distraction.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> B/c of my experience with choke and prong, I don't usually recommend them. However, I do prefer the prong. ... But, I have observed that strong dogs can get used to the prong (or choke) after a month....because they realize they are not in pain ... in the hands of the average user. On the other hand, I've watched experts train a dog with nearly no real discomfort... I don't have that kind of timing.
> 
> Re: "Once he is zoomed in on something he wants to do....there is no stopping him." One approach is to be aware of the environment and try to anticipate the distraction, then distract him, asking him to sit, and treat... before he focuses. In addition, you can try to slowly introduce him to the distraction from a distance, before he gets to his reactive threshold, and give him a treat for paying attention to you (One term for this is Amygdala hijack... with lots of Google entries)... You can clicker train him to look at you, rather than look at the distant distraction.



EDIT: Well, I had to put the lid down on the commodes. Benny started to drink from one of them. After I fixed them ......Benny proceeded to run back in and grab the throw rug in front of the commode and eat it! He ruined it in a matter of seconds! Then I had to chase him around the house to get back what was not shredded up! What a boy he is! But I did have to chuckle ... can't cry over spilled milk! Lol! 

Can you tell Benny has me worn out?! I put the EDIT in the wrong place! Lol! 


I like this distraction training. If I am just moseying around I will click and he immediately comes to me.....if he is not zoomed in on something. I will work on the distraction before it happens. It is usually one of the other dogs that Benny cannot pull himself away from.

Benny is super food motivated! I will clicker train him to look at me. Being he already comes when I click I should be able to do this easily I would think. I like the clicker. Being this is the first time I ever used a clicker in all my years of having and training my dogs.........I first used it for Abbylynn......and I fell in love with it.  It is a wonderful tool IMO.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Not trying to beat a dead horse, but gonna do a little beating of said horse. You had pup from 4 weeks to 10 weeks and now he's been back approx. 14 days or so. Realistically speaking you have a brand new puppy. I know you know this but just thumping you a little bit to make sure. Obviously this return puppy is huge in body size compared to 10 week old and therein lies the problem. Just keep on doin what your doin and adjusting as necessary.

Hanksimon is correct about prong collar use but when time comes, if it is necessary it would give you another month of time while you are adjusting other things in the home. If it comes to that and as last resort you want/need more prong advice you can PM me.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you wvasko!  I understand beating the of said horse ... it is hard sometimes especially with large pups to remember just that ... they are PUPS.  They tend to look adultish. Lol!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> Thank you wvasko!  I understand beating the of said horse ... it is hard sometimes especially with large pups to remember just that ... they are PUPS.  They tend to look adultish. Lol!


That's Ok, for years I have preached to owners of large breed dogs to not think of them as adults because of their size. As they are large on outside but small on inside. You are not alone and I suspect even experienced trainers have made a misstep or two, I have. You have to occasionally do stupid things, cause sometimes that's the only way to learn.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> That's Ok, for years I have preached to owners of large breed dogs to not think of them as adults because of their size. As they are large on outside but small on inside. You are not alone and I suspect even experienced trainers have made a misstep or two, I have. You have to occasionally do stupid things, cause sometimes that's the only way to learn.


You are so correct ... 

While I was typing the last post ... ( my computer is where I can see the dogs playing) ... Benny ran over and took a blue bulb off of the Christmas tree ... must have thought it was a ball ... I had to chase him to get it back ... tripped over the water bowl ... put him in time-out ... cleaned up the water ... Benny threw up in his crate ... cleaned that up ... Benny is back in time out after going outside ...  This is going to be a fun day as it has just begun! Lol!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> You are so correct ...
> 
> While I was typing the last post ... ( my computer is where I can see the dogs playing) ... Benny ran over and took a blue bulb off of the Christmas tree ... must have thought it was a ball ... I had to chase him to get it back ... tripped over the water bowl ... put him in time-out ... cleaned up the water ... Benny threw up in his crate ... cleaned that up ... Benny is back in time out after going outside ...  This is going to be a fun day as it has just begun! Lol!


You may be doing this but if not try it a thin nylon cord with dog snap and just clip to collar and he can drag it around house. With Pierce when he gets in a crazy mood I clip it to his Marti and this immediately gives me way to control the wild child. Remember though I'm correction based with my dogs so if he gets too silly I will correct, he has had 30 days of formal Obed. heel, sit, down, stay, come, work 1st. With you it's not so much for correcting Benny, it's just for control as it's much easier to catch him dragging a 4 ft lead and then calming him down. 

Problem can occur, as he may want to chew on nylon lead (much less than with leather lead) with Pierce a simple no suffices and there is no chewing of lead. But it's may be worth trying and the lead is cheap, any hardware store nylon cord can be purchased and dog snaps, I cut leads to any size I want and then use a lighter to melt ends do there is no fraying of cord. I've mentioned this silly stuff before.

Pierce is to the point now that if he gets crazy just snapping lead to collar works and light verbal corrections are doing the job. Eventually this will be phased out lead 1st.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko ... you are correct about the chewing ... Benny has done this since he was able to see.  ... Lol! 




But no matter how bad Benny is ... I guess Benny will always be this in MY eyes ..............











How could you not love that little 4 week old?  I want Benny to be a good canine citizen.  I will still try the nylon rope. Thank you!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I may have come across a breakthrough with the pulling. Even though this may sound strange ... I noticed today that when Benny is outside to go potty and I praise the world out of him for doing so, he will stop and let me give him attention and he gives me eye contact. He normally pulls like a locomotive and never even glances back to see what he is pulling. Therefore all the way back to the house as long as I keep saying "wait" and praising him ... there is no extreme pulling. Is this just a fluke? ... or have I stumbled on something that may just work for him? Maybe it is just a "good" day for him? I hope it lasts. 

I also allow Benny play time immediately after the potty breaks as a reward. I have had to crate him in between as you know due to his out of control and destructive behavior. This is improving ... no strange objects eaten today.  I can not take my eyes off of him for a second because he WILL grab something like the couch pillow as he took yesterday ...it is now missing a corner.  

The plus side to all of this is that the two Schnauzer/Poodles automatically go into Benny's crate when signaled so they are not in the way to be injured. What a crate and rotate system!!! I am glad my little dogs are so well behaved!

There is one thing he does during play with Abbylynn and that is he grabs any one of her legs and bites to where she yelps softly. I would imagine she will put him in check if it becomes too much? I usually give him a time - out when he does this. I put him in his crate for 30 seconds to a minute and then release him again. I am not sure what else to do. 

I firmly believe the only reason Benny has any decent bite inhibition at all is because my other rescued dog Kokomo, whom my Sister still owns taught this to Benny. Kokomo is 8 years old and did not put up with his antics.  I should mention that Kokomo was already trained by myself before she went there to live and is a Lab/Rott mix.

Benny just has so many bad habits that it makes it difficult to know where to start first ... so I am just doing a little of everything at once.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Time will tell with the pulling, one thing that I would keep eye on is the biting of Abby's leg. Sometimes young dogs do not know their own strength. Probably not a big deal but sometimes Mr Murphy strikes and accidents occur.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Time will tell with the pulling, one thing that I would keep eye on is the biting of Abby's leg. Sometimes young dogs do not know their own strength. Probably not a big deal but sometimes Mr Murphy strikes and accidents occur.


Yeah, ... Mr. Murphy needs to stay at home.  That is all I need on top of everything else.


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## DeadIrishD (Aug 8, 2009)

Daisy is only allowed to walk (on leash) next to me there is no room on the leash for her to walk ahead or behind me, when she does try to pull, I make her stop and sit until she is 100% calm.
Daisy gets a few hours of play time, with the room mates dog, to tire her out so she has a lot less excess energy to play when she should be paying attention to me.

I've also started to play "Pack man" with her, which has worked WONDERS!

Pack man; I lay on her, and hold her down (not putting much pressure on her, at all) and she submits quite easily, while doing this I pat her head and give her kisses, but she is not allowed to get up from this position, no whining, no whelping, just pure ol' submission from her, and love from me.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

DeadIrishD said:


> Pack man; I lay on her, and hold her down (not putting much pressure on her, at all) and she submits quite easily, while doing this I pat her head and give her kisses, but she is not allowed to get up from this position, no whining, no whelping, just pure ol' submission from her, and love from me.


My dogs would want no part of this. They would disregard the love from me. I think that may dogs would hate it. Perhaps yours doesn't, but people reading this should be aware of the potential for problems.


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## DeadIrishD (Aug 8, 2009)

I totally forgot to put up the warning, that this will depend on your dog's temperament, and the size of the dog.
Daisy is a 3.5 month old puppy, without too much size on her being so young, and her demeanor she's really quite easy going with this, will post pictures soon!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Pack man; I lay on her, and hold her down (not putting much pressure on her, at all) and she submits quite easily, while doing this I pat her head and give her kisses, but she is not allowed to get up from this position, no whining, no whelping, just pure ol' submission from her, and love from me.


I got to get out more cause I've never heard of Pac Man. I believe a person might go through a few pups before finding one that went for it, I wonder if pups can have claustrophobia. I'm trying to look at it from pup's point of view, I'm 180 pounds so it would mean maybe an 800 pound or higher person laying on me with no weight. I know that I would probably be doing a lot of whining crying etc with maybe some screaming thrown. I would not care about any kisses or pats thrown in as I would be in panic mode.

That being said I'm sure there are pups out there that would be alright with it, Of course I've never wanted complete submission from man or beast.

There used to be a story/myth whatever about a calf born and the farmer picks it up and then each day following he would go to barn and pick it up on the theory that it could then be picked up when full grown, Sounded good but don't believe it worked out so well in real life.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I had never heard of " Pac-man" until yesterday myself ... I know that it would not be wise for myself to try this.  Benny weighs at least half of what I do. I am only 130 pounds and 5' 5" tall. I bet he is almost as tall as me!  He would get the better of me, I just know it. I have seen however people lying on the floor playing with their new pups but in a wrestling and all kissy - kissy manner. 

Well ... today it took Benny and I an hour to do our morning ritual of walking and going potty ... and it was freezing ( to me with copd ... hard to breathe in the cold air) ... my daily ritual now takes me at least two hours until I can have my morning coffee .... I need to tweak this new schedule! Lol! 

Benny had a " good " day yesterday; except that I was making Christmas cookies for the family and he decided to run up and grab my fireproof oven mitt and make a game of chase about it! Lol.! If that was ALL he did being ornery ... this is good!


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## DeadIrishD (Aug 8, 2009)

Abbylynn, I am glad that Benny seems to be doing a bit better with his training!

I also think I worded it wrong with "Pack Man" I am not putting all of my weight on her, while "Laying on her" nor am I really holding her down with any physical force, more so holding myself up with my arms, while still being able to pet the brat, I had to babysit my room mates kids today, then went out to eat, and headed over to Wal Mart 

While I know Daisy does not mind it, at all I'll try and figure out how to send the pictures to you Abbylynn so you can get a better idea of what I am doing, it's going to stop after that as I've been reading a lot more on Dog Star Daily, and have since realized that I don't need to be training Daisy with these methods 

The person who's been helping me with advice told me that when / if she bit me too hard to bite her ear (I've not done, at all) as this would show her who's alpha in the pack, I must apologize for any wrong information that I have given to anyone, and admit that I am a n00b when it comes to training pups with such high energy (Jeesh, training a chow chow is a lot easier, then training Daisy)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Good job DIrishD, 50 years in dog training business and not one instance of having to bite a dog. I'm aversive but I draw the line at biting dogs. (to furry Hmmmmm! maybe a Mexican Hairless)


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## DeadIrishD (Aug 8, 2009)

Thanks, I think I'd rather dental floss if I really wanted anything in between my teeth  

On a side note, the girlfriend does want a Chinese crested


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

You all just put a smile on my face this morning with your sense of humor!  ... which was a good thing ... I woke up to a crate full of pee, :/

I quit giving Benny his " crazy drugs " as I call his calming medicine I bought. I wanted to see if he was less stressed now after over two weeks of being rudely uprooted and brought back here. I think he is at least 60% better. I swear the calming aid made him worse. Is that possible? Coincidence? ...

Today will be another test of faith, ... I must go and finish Christmas shopping. I hope he does not dirty his crate again! I am running out of cleaner! Lol! 

Benny is becoming quite the watch dog! He is vocalizing now when anything looks strange around our premises here. Boy does he have a set of lungs! I thought Abbylynn was loud! Geez!

This is an ok thing with me! I could not imagine anyone in their right mind trying to break into this house with four screaming dogs!  People have been known to come walking through the woods onto other's properties. Bad idea on their part unless they have a firearm. I also don't wish that on my dogs.

Benny is still not pulling quite as hard. I am hoping that I will not have to use the prong. :/ Time will tell. He still is as strong as an ox. I wish I had an idea of what mix of breed in him has made him like this? I know it couldn't be all that baby rice cereal and milk I weaned him with!  I would love to give him a pulling job in the future if this is what makes him happy ... as long as it isn't me he is hauling around! Once he is older and fully grown I do have a homemade heavy wooden wagon with tractor tires that he could haul fire wood with? 

I will be sure to look for pics in the dog picture forum of Daisy.  She is just too pretty!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I wish I had an idea of what mix of breed in him


Forget the breed it's the dog. I like a vocal alerting dog, it makes life safer for one.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Nothing outrageous today ... yet ... yes almost anticipating ...

Benny has begun to regress on the house training a little ... to be expected ... I always find it gets worse before it gets better.  On the other hand, Abbylynn broke out of her crate yesterday as I was shopping. Luckily she only punctured a small hole in her front leg. It could have been worse being she bent the entire side down and off and somehow squeezed herself out through it all? She did however prove that she could be left alone and not touch ANYTHING for about three hours. Good Girl Abbylynn!  Now, ... if I can only get Benny to be like this!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I will say life at your house is definitely an adventure. It might be the only home that even Murphy is scared of.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I will say life at your house is definitely an adventure. It might be the only home that even Murphy is scared of.


I am sure once again you are absolutely correct! Lol! 

What is really scary is that when I ask the two little dogs to enter the crate so the big pups can play,........they RUN to get in it. They were never crate trained!!!!  LOL!!! 

Come to think of it, ... maybe they are SCARED!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The regression is OK and it's normal. Most training is not a nice linear progression, but more like 5 steps forward and one steps backwards, as the dog learns where the rules bend and where they stop. Just keep up the training and try to figure out why the mistakes happen. Sometimes they are just one time problems.

The "Pac-man" has an interesting history. I don't think it's Dunbar, but it was a socialization thing, part of the many different types of play with a young puppy to get them used to everything and immune to panic.... So you sit on the pup, you startle the pup, you chase the pup, put you finger in his ears, and so on.... anything that a Vet or a child might do.... but you do it in a playful manner, so if it occurs in real life, the dog is not threatened. In more recent years, the submissive trainers have used it on full grown dogs to enforce submission... ridiculous! ... and dangerous.

I lay on top of my dog all the time, with minimal weight... and he can fall asleep that way. If he's not in the mood to tolerate it, he will complain and try to get up and leave, but it is rare. On a different behavior, we were sitting outside of PetsMart when he was a pup, to get him to be calm and socialized with moving people. A woman walked up behind us and started petting him. My dog startled, moved his head quickly to look at her, and smiled. The woman jumped back, and when I saw her, I noticed that she had 3 stitches in her lip. She said she was nervous when my dog startled because she had just gotten bitten yesterday! Without the startle training, I think my dog would have bitten her, too! I can train the dog, but I didn't say anything to the woman 

If no one has mentioned it, Pulling is not due to strength. Pulling is a behavior that all dogs can learn, if they believe that the more they pull, the faster you will walk. Or something like that. So, the goal is to re-train them that the more they pull, the more you will stop. Look up loose leash training or silky leash on Google and on Youtube.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

The " pac-man" history is interesting. 

The pulling is improving. I have been just stopping dead in my tracks when he does this. He is beginning to turn around and stop to look at me. Now I just need him to come to me; this is where I am going to use the clicker to get him to return ... but honestly it is freezing outside right now ...and I must not stay out too long in this cold due to my health. So, I guess when it is too cold outside we will resort to the training area I made in the basement as I can train for longer periods of time. It is 1500 sq. feet. I hope it is enough room? I have made smaller areas work for " heel "in the past. Of course I know it is not the same as there are not distractions. 

Any advice on this or insight?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

You're talking about a basement 30 ft by 50 ft approx. or close to it anyway that room should work fine for starter work just remember dogs that will heel in the basement don't generalize so they may not have same expertise when out of basement. That being said, do it cause any work is better than none. It's a good non-distraction area if other dogs are upstairs. I start all dogs in a distraction free place, I've always told people that the dog and owner are 2 figure skaters, they both know how to skate but they don't have a clue on how to skate together as a pair. What better way than to work in a place where you and dog can concentrate on work being done. 

Distractions can then be added. You can teach heeling, on lead sits, on lead downs, then on lead sit-stays, on lead down-stays and on lead recall work added to the mix. Then start drop lead stay work. This is kindergarten work but very important. The easy part is you are working in an area where the dog is under your control unless he can open the door. 

When we decided Pierce was getting dumped on us, the very 1st thing I did was 30 days work in training bldg cause the dog was a nice dog but a dog approaching 2 years old that had no training at all. He had to have some manners before allowed in home. Not gonna get into how to train because I'm aversive as you know, but there is nothing wrong with working in basement.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> You're talking about a basement 30 ft by 50 ft approx. or close to it anyway that room should work fine for starter work just remember dogs that will heel in the basement don't generalize so they may not have same expertise when out of basement. That being said, do it cause any work is better than none. It's a good non-distraction area if other dogs are upstairs. I start all dogs in a distraction free place, I've always told people that the dog and owner are 2 figure skaters, they both know how to skate but they don't have a clue on how to skate together as a pair. What better way than to work in a place where you and dog can concentrate on work being done.
> 
> Distractions can then be added. You can teach heeling, on lead sits, on lead downs, then on lead sit-stays, on lead down-stays and on lead recall work added to the mix. Then start drop lead stay work. This is kindergarten work but very important. The easy part is you are working in an area where the dog is under your control unless he can open the door.
> 
> When we decided Pierce was getting dumped on us, the very 1st thing I did was 30 days work in training bldg cause the dog was a nice dog but a dog approaching 2 years old that had no training at all. He had to have some manners before allowed in home. Not gonna get into how to train because I'm aversive as you know, but there is nothing wrong with working in basement.


Good deal! Just making sure I am not adding stress to an already stressed pup! Thank you!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Not a big deal because you can take your time, I've always liked to keep a daily training journal. Each day I do formal obedience work I write it all down so a month later I can go back and see if there is actual improvement. I have always kept training records on all dogs. It's much easier now with PCs as when I started it was all hard copy written by hand.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Not a big deal because you can take your time, I've always liked to keep a daily training journal. Each day I do formal obedience work I write it all down so a month later I can go back and see if there is actual improvement. I have always kept training records on all dogs. It's much easier now with PCs as when I started it was all hard copy written by hand.


This is a good idea. I like this. I have never kept a journal on any of my dog training. Just my own dogs and never had a need to I guess. I have a new computer and I need to figure out how to start my journal ... I have the folder for my journal named ... it is ... "The Diary of a Mad Woman" ... Lol!  ... quite fitting at this point in time! Lol!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well, I like things that if they're not gonna help you, won't hurt you and it's just kind of handy to keep a record.


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## Alba Qwerky (Dec 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'm betting he needs lot and lots and LOTS of exercise. A large-breed teen-aged untrained male. . .yup. Once he's tired he may have some more focus. Poor guy has been pent up for so long, a good run would do wonders, I think.


 Tons of excercise helped my devil dog- Otto is a beast, and when i got him as a rescue he was insane. I walk him twice a day, and my teenage neighbor takes him for a jog. I found a great harness for beasties- it prevents pulling, what a miracle, check out www.walkyourdogwithlove.com. now a year later, we are in a much better place. PS use the crate!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

So I have been letting Benny settle in ...

We have a new twist on leash walking. Pulling is ceasing compared to day one. Benny now as we are walking, comes back to me and close to my hand he takes the leash in his mouth and leads me back to the house ... but does not pull, as he stays close to me as he does this. It is a big relief that I am not getting pulled ... I am not sure whether to let this be and use it as a tool.  I think I may. Benny is not chewing the leash. He did this at 6 weeks of age when I still had him. It was a game.

Today Benny has started to come to me just out of the blue to be pet and for some one on one attention. This is a good thing. He is beginning to calm.  He is also showing interest in asking me for things, ... such as food and water,...as I have been having him sit for everything. ( since sit was the only thing he knew) Benny is also not gulping down water as if he will never get any more ... same with his food. He is slowing down.  This is great as he is large and prone to bloat. 

Benny is also going to his crate without much help ... as he is beginning to realize that it is a good place and he is not going to spend eternity in it.

He also has had no accidents with potty in the house or his crate now for a few days. 

It has been three weeks. There is hope for Benny.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well now you do have a journal to look at, this thread. You can check back at monster dog's 1st post and see where he's at today. Looks good to me.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree. Good Journal.

However, Warning.... Do not relax with Benny with loose leash walking, just yet. Everything you're doing is fine and it is working. In a study of training loose leash walking, they found that it takes a full 30 days to get a solid, reliable loose leash... so it doesn't hurt to keep the training up for a week or two more.... This is to fine-tune the response and to eliminate any final extinguish burst.... It is not a big thing, just a few more weeks reinforcing what he is doing, and fixing anything needs a tweak.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> I agree. Good Journal.
> 
> However, Warning.... Do not relax with Benny with loose leash walking, just yet. Everything you're doing is fine and it is working. In a study of training loose leash walking, they found that it takes a full 30 days to get a solid, reliable loose leash... so it doesn't hurt to keep the training up for a week or two more.... This is to fine-tune the response and to eliminate any final extinguish burst.... It is not a big thing, just a few more weeks reinforcing what he is doing, and fixing anything needs a tweak.


Thank you for the advice and the warning ... I too do not really trust him yet. It is too soon. I just know he is waiting until the time is right ... and all He$$ will break loose!  Just kidding!  The loose leash walking is scary to me at the moment as I did not expect this so soon. I honestly thought maybe he had a lot of saw dust between his ears.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Personal dog training is a forever thing, you get dog to the plateau you are comfortable with, then it should be maintained with refresher course work.



> I too do not really trust him yet. It is too soon. I just know he is waiting until the time is right ... and all He$$ will break loose!  Just kidding!


Of course all He$$ will break loose because that's his main goal/job in life to keep you on your toes.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Personal dog training is a forever thing, you get dog to the plateau you are comfortable with, then it should be maintained with refresher course work.
> 
> 
> 
> Of course all He$$ will break loose because that's his main goal/job in life to keep you on your toes.


You are certainly correct. Keeps life interesting! 

EDIT:!!! Benny's collar slipped off of his head .... I had one he$$ of a time trying to put it back on him. He is sooooo scared of his scruff being pulled I literally had to chase him and wrestle him to get it back on no matter what approach I tried. I eventually gave up and baited his crate with a cookie to get him to go in the crate at least! This was really tough for me because with copd ... I cannot breathe after a tussle like this. 

I need some really good advice how to desensitize him from being this freaked-out! I know the way I had to go about it this morning was wrong and of no help! 

Please advise! Please! Please! Please! 

ps.- when Benny was 5 weeks old the vet pulled him up by his scruff and held him in the air and let him scream his poor little head off for at least two minutes, ... and when he did not quit screaming ... she labeled him a " problem " Benny has never forgotten this!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The general answer is slow, gentle, incremental counter conditioning.
Is it just the top of his neck? Can you pull on the skin/fur on his throat or sides of his neck? Anyway...
1. Pet his neck, give him a treat. Pet a little harder, give another treat. Push down on his neck (like play?), give a treat. Stop for the day.
2. Massage his neck gently, give a treat. Massage a little harder, give a treat. Push down, and crumble the loose skin without pulling, treat.
3. Next day, Crumble his scruff, treat... repeat 3 times. If he likes it, continue for 10 min. otherwise stop.
4. Next day repeat for 10 min. Stop for two days, then do it again, just a bit more roughly for 10 min.

Do this all more slowly than I wrote it. Don't do anything that he is uncomfortable with.... Step 1 may take you a week rather than a day, if he is really skittish. If you can figure out how to make it fun and a game, it will be easier. Also, you might try removing and replacing his collar, with treats, many times while you have a calm situation....


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> The general answer is slow, gentle, incremental counter conditioning.
> Is it just the top of his neck? Can you pull on the skin/fur on his throat or sides of his neck? Anyway...
> 1. Pet his neck, give him a treat. Pet a little harder, give another treat. Push down on his neck (like play?), give a treat. Stop for the day.
> 2. Massage his neck gently, give a treat. Massage a little harder, give a treat. Push down, and crumble the loose skin without pulling, treat.
> ...


Thank you!  I started a thread for this problem only. I have gotten close to the same response and advice. I am trying it slowly and not " flooding" as someone else mentioned. I will make it as slow and as much fun as I can muster up! 

Yes, it is mostly the top of his neck ... he will allow me to stroke his chin and on the front of his throat.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

If he gets that spacy, a prong collar down the road would not be the way to go as there would/could be a panic stage program and set him back to never-never land. An adjusted Marti collar eliminates choking and slipping out of collar.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Benny! Benny! Benny! .....................................

He has done it for sure this time. 

Yesterday it snowed.

My Dad offered to and took Benny outside to go potty. My Dad is almost 6 feet tall and 213 pounds and very muscular, but 76 years old. Benny pulled him,... and the ground being muddy and slick,... made him fall. He injured the side of his thigh and his elbow. I am very concerned because we need no broken hips or bones. Benny has also pounced on my Dad inside the house and hit him in the face. My dad just had cataract surgery. My Dad is a great guy ... but this is his house. He has mentioned in a nice way that Benny is slowly destroying his home. I agree.
The crating and rotating is taking a toll on the other dogs too. They are not very pleased. Blu Boy has also taken to growling and trying to bite Benny. What a mess! 

Benny is a long term project. Even though we have made progress it is going to be a very long haul for us both. Benny has made the crating and rotating a difficult task inside of the house. He just has no tolerance for the crate. I cannot blame him. He has been in one entirely too long. And I cannot just let him run loose because of his terrorizing everything in the house.

Two mornings ago just when I thought all was going great, Benny did pee and poo in his crate and was stomping in it like a bucking bronco stomping around, ... and there was pee and poo all over the carpet and the walls and the closet doors and himself. 

Benny is going to get a kennel. IMO this will give him much more freedom than a large crate ever could. I have already purchased an igloo house for him, extra large. I have already gotten a few bales of straw. Now I am just waiting for the fencing at my Step Brothers house. Benny is just so out of control in the house ... he is entirely too strong to just tether him to myself,...I would end up getting injured as well,... and believe me I have tried my heart out.  I am still going to train Benny but I must put my Dad's safety first..... not to mention his home. 



Benny has really made me open my eyes to the concept of what happens to a 4 week old pup without it's Mom and litter mates. I had all good intentions because I didn't want him to just be thrown away and to die. 

I guess I am trying to talk myself out of feeling so guilty over all of this and letting Benny go the first time into a situation where I was promised he would be taken care of properly.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yes, knocking dad down and smacking him in face is very dangerous and to be avoided if possible. Priorities have to be followed and I would assume dad is very high on the keep safe list. Forget the guilt stuff, this Benny dog may need a different approach and a kennel for house safety if possible would surely help. I am finding at 75 training dogs is becoming a new adventure, 50 yrs of experience helps but only goes so far when the brain sends reflex signals to body and they are getting there the week after they are needed


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Yes, knocking dad down and smacking him in face is very dangerous and to be avoided if possible. Priorities have to be followed and I would assume dad is very high on the keep safe list. Forget the guilt stuff, this Benny dog may need a different approach and a kennel for house safety if possible would surely help. I am finding at 75 training dogs is becoming a new adventure, 50 yrs of experience helps but only goes so far when the brain sends reflex signals to body and they are getting there the week after they are needed


Thanks for making me smile!  I too believe Benny will be much better off in his kennel. I love all my dogs, but Dad's safety comes first. 

EDIT: Sorry, I am half asleep! Lol!
I just wanted to say that I am glad pierce will be fine. 

Like I posted in your other thread, Pierce needs you as much as you need him!  He is a good boy!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree, safety first. Watch out for snow - I know too late ... But most dogs Love snow... it's cool and it energizes them... when you see a dog running in snow, you realize what tireless athletes they really are, slowing down, not when they're tired... but when they finally get over-heated !!! A lot of wind can sometimes do the same...


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If you live somewhere with ice, like Ohio , then I highly recommend some good ice cleats to slip on over your shoes for not just walking the dogs but even just walking on an icy driveway to your car or to take out the trash. 

I bought StabilICErs for everyone in my family last winter and LOVE them. (Link is just an example, they are sold online from several stores) They really really give traction and security on ice or ice under snow. My mom broke her arm last year slipping on ice (about a month before I found these ice cleats...) and even though she healed well, she was sooo grateful to be able to have some extra security walking for the rest of the winter. I used them when I walked Chester and even when he occasionally pulled, I stayed steady.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks for the tips for traction. I only have some " moon boots " from when they came back in style a couple years back. We do live in Ohio and in no mans land ... help could be far away if anyone was injured and the other person not home. Therefore when tending to Benny, ... both my Dad and I will be sure to be home. Actually I forbid my Dad to handle Benny unless I am ill and there is no other choice! 

Benny loves his " Igloo " house. He loves being outdoors! Me too! Lol!  The house is back to being in one piece and the other dogs are not all stressed out.

EDIT: You know, I was reading the forums today and saw a 16 year old wanting their own dog ......someone mentioned reading all the " Help " threads before getting a dog of their own at that age ...... This would be the perfect thread for them to read .... in all my 41 years of having dogs I have never come across a dog of this magnitude with behavioral problems .... Benny would be enough to scare the devil out of anyone!!! Lol!!! 



I am hoping in the future to be able to find him a forever home ..... if it is possible


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Benny is still being worked with by me.... and just as crazy as ever! Lol! 

He is enjoying his time out doors ... though I hate to see him end up this way for the rest of eternity. Therefore I have been conversing with my Step-Brother who had just lost his Bulldog puppy this summer from a sudden unexplained death. He also has two other mix breed dogs and a few cats. He also has close to 20 acres of woodland and fields. He is interested in Benny. His wife does not work. There is always somebody home the majority of the time. They are almost the same age as myself, ... but in good health. I am considering them for adoptive parents for Benny. I hate to admit defeat, ... I am vain in that way sometimes ... but I know realistically, I will never be able to handle Benny on a forever basis due to my health and his behavior problems. I must look at what is best for Benny's future and not be selfish because I want to keep him for myself.  I know it is just not good for Benny to live outside forever. He needs a real life. I am positive they are great with their animals. Maybe after the holidays are over and Benny has a few more manners I will re-home him there? I do not even care that I have spent hundreds of dollars on him in the 9 months he has been here on this earth. I just want him to be able to enjoy his short time a dog has here before going to Rainbow Bridge.

The plus side to this is I can still keep tabs on him and Know he is being taken care of properly. My Sister keeps saying how much she misses him ... and I keep saying he is not ever going back to her house. She understands. No hard feelings between us.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Benny's huge kennel on almost 20 acres of land and forest ........










You can see the extra large IGLOO house I bought him ...........down below is where a pool used to be ...........










You can see how huge this area is for him when no one is home..........the fence is way in the distance............










To believe he once was this not so long ago ............










and this ............










Benny running by me ..............










Benny is in 7th Heaven ........... he is finally " FREE "..............and he is only about 5 miles away ........ I can still see him as I please! I am so happy for him ... no more life in a crate or on a chain in a back yard!  He looks so happy as if he is jumping for joy! I took these pictures this afternoon.

Maybe some day I will be able to take him for a " real " walk without getting pulled along by a locomotive! Lol! 

Benny! Benny! Biting Benny!.......................


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## DobermanGuy (Dec 16, 2011)

That place you got set up for him is HUGE! 

Lucky dog is about all I can say. Props to you for making it all happen for him and giving him the best.


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