# Training miniature dachshund "down"



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Any tips on training my 5 m/o miniature dachshund how to lay down? He picked up sit very quickly but can't seem toget "down". If I take a trea and place it on the floor he will lay down and give him the treat but he doesn't seem to be picking up that "down" equals you get a reward. He picked up leave it fairly quickly also so I'm sure I'm just not doing something correctly. Any help?


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

You need to lure. Look up kikopup on YouTube. She shows the correct motion for luring a down.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

I have been using a luring technique. I'll lure him into a down, say "down" and treat. He's just not picking up that verbal "down" and relating it to the position he is in. However, I watched Kikopup's video on teaching a beginning sit/down stay and I think my issue was my timing. I'll keep trying and see if there's any results in the next week or so. I'll post an update later!


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Say "Down" then _wait_ for 2-3 seconds, and _then_ lure. Dogs take the shortest path to the reward, so they will learn that the sound "Down" means lay down and get a reward. By saying the word, pausing, then luring, they have a chance to do the behavior before you lure. Thus, they'll do the behavior without the lure.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the help. I think I'm seeing a little progress. Still no dice on the verbal command, but he's responding to the lure much, much quicker. Maybe it's just a matter of time? When I have time later this week I'm going to make a video of how I'm teaching it and post it for y'all to see exactly what I'm doing and help me that way.

On another note, what treats do you guys recommend for using in mass quantities when training a dog? My girlfriend and I are currently using canine carry out's bacn bites, but I'm afraid that those might not be the best choice. We haven't been giving him too many at once for fear of him putting on weight, but I'm wanting to find a better treat to use. I found Zukes Mini Naturals online and theres a store that sells them about 2 blocks from my house. Anyone have experience with those? They seem like a great choice at only 3 calories per treat and very low on fat!


----------



## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

My doxie mix is inconsistent with his verbal commands for down and turn around/spin - though it just takes barely a gesture for him to do it. We're working on getting him away from the gestures by saying the word, then waiting a few seconds before offering the gesture. The way our trainer trains is gesture first, then word+gesture, then take away gesture again. ANYWAY, I don't know if it would help, but try to train down on the carpet. Mine can't get a good enough grip on hardwood/tile/etc... to be able to do down.

I use half of Hamilton's kibble ration for training. If I'm using treats, I cut them into wee pieces. I would cut a mini Zukes into about 8 pieces with a sharp knife. Hamilton cares more about quantity than volume!


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Yea the bacn bites we use I can get about 10-12 pieces from 1 treat. We definitely dont give him 1 whole treat every time he sits! I did use an entire treat when working on "leave it" earlier today though. Had a huge pile of food sitting 4 inches from his nose for about 15 seconds (that's a record!). Definitely warranted a huge jackpot reward.

I think I need to work more on just the gesture with no verbal command still. I watched a few more of kiko's videos and she stressed doing just a lure first, fade the lure and add a gesture. He definitely has a good lure. If I lead him with a treat in my hand he goes immediately. However, if i take the treat away he stops following immediately. Need to try reinforcing that behavior more.


----------



## intent2smile (Sep 6, 2012)

We use a portion of Jaxx's kibble as treats also. I would rather use something that I know is good for him instead of just calorie filler. I also will add a couple tiny pieces of dried beef liver into the mix so he will work for it. He absolutely loves dried beef liver but that is just for when he does something spectacular or if I am trying to entice him.


----------



## hargyle (Mar 21, 2012)

My pup is almost 10 months and still lacks response with down , he knows what it is ... just stubborn. Sometimes it takes time for things to "click", especially with verbal commands - just be diligent and patient. As Far as the Zukes , that's what we use, I love them ... nice and smelly to get their attention and they come in every flavour imaginable. In high distraction situations I also use hot dogs or popcorn.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

We use Zuke's also, and I usually pinch them in half with my fingernail, so even though they are on the smallish side to begin with, you can make them even smaller.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

jbuck92 said:


> However, if i take the treat away he stops following immediately.


Have you tried this? 

1) five quick repetitions with a lure, 2) then suddenly, just a hand gesture with no actual food in hand, and immediately feed from the OPPOSITE HAND when the dog goes down. 3) five quick repetitions gesturing with one hand and feeding from the opposite hand as described. Make this 'transition' smooth and seamless. 

Once your dog becomes proficient you may ie: reduce the rate of reinforcement to variable, add in some duration, and a clear release cue, etc.


Also, have you read the sticky on 'fading the lure'? ... http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/47819-quantum-leaps-fading-lure.html


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Thanks peeve I'll try that out this evening when I'm home!


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Not gonna say anything on the Down training, since a lot of good advice has been offered and I'm glad to hear you're getting results!

But as to what I use for training, I use ALL of my dog's daily ration of kibble. I only use treats for when I feel like something warrants a higher value reward, or if I'm feeling generous. Otherwise, I see no reason why he shouldn't have to earn every morsel of food. Though I will say if I'm feeling lazy I put it in a treat dispensing toy. He's 6 years old now; even though he gets a lot of freebies from me now, he grew up learning he had to earn all of it. I like setting the habit in early


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Ok here's a video of me trying to teach him "Down". Any help now that you can see exactly how I'm doing it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KunpPPgKmKk&feature=youtu.be


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Pretty good! The only suggestion I would make is to not repeat a command twice, which you don't do too often. You did it twice before 2:04 but at around that time (to use that one as an example) I would have suggested pulling your hand back a bit so he might follow it and stretch into a down, or push it towards him for the same effect.
At the end, it seems he's learned that your luring hand doesn't have a treat in it. So if I were you I would have either taken a break or I would have gone back to having the treat in my hand as a lure for a few more repetitions. 
Hang in there, you and Andy will get it!


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Well good to know I'm on the right track! I guess this is the first command that has taken any length for him to pick up on. Sit, come and leave it he picked up on very, very quickly.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Had another small training session tonight and not too much progress regarding "down", but I decided to focus more on Andy's recall tonight. He's been kind of finicky about coming only when he feels like it lately and thought that reinforcing his recall was more important rather than teaching him a new command. Probably need to work on "come" every day, or at least every other day.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

That is so cool ! Yes, I can see the problems very clearly and could show you, but not sure if I can articulate it completely.
1. Andy is very sharp and he is responded very well to the hand motions.
2. He has not yet learned any voice signals, he doesn't understand that words have meanings... he only reacts to the hand motions.
3. I couldn't tell it you were consistent, feeding from the luring hand, or sometimes switching to the other hand ?
4. The treats look OK, but anything the size of a fingernail, providing a taste and requiring no chewing, is fine.
5. Try re-starting with Sit. Say "Sit" with your hands in your lap... and wait. He'll look at your hands, may come and sniff, stay quiet and wait. If he sits, praise and treat with three treats, one at a time. Repeat without the lure.
6. You could then try the same thing in a day or two with Down. Say "Down" and he'll Sit, just wait. If he gets bored, he may Down...

The point is that I don't believe that he has made the connection that Voice or Lure is requesting a behavior. I think that he believes that if he follows the lure, whatever the path, then he gets a treat.

I think he nearly understands a snap (or 3 snaps) as Come!

Take a look at the Sit and Down sections only, see if those help with the minor tweaks ? http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads


The Youtube video helped a lot!!! Wish I could explain it better!


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

I did switch hands on occasion, need to stop doing that haha. He actually does respond to voice signals for sit. I don't really lure him much into a sit, it's usually just Sit! and he sits. I was trying to lure from a down to a sit, but obviously it didn't work! He hasn't picked up the verbal command for down yet, but hoping that comes sometime this week. I'll take a look at those videos and see if I can find something to help when teaching Down. 

Thanks!


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Here's part 2. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlbEBZoWDvU&feature=youtu.be

Still about the same as before.. I did buy a clicker today and have started using that. Are y'all noticing any progress or am I still dead in the water? He's picking up on the lure much, much faster than before. But he's still just not making that verbal connection. He knows sit, come and leave it all verbally.


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Biggest thing I see that might be helpful to change is that it looks like your lure is very fast. Bam, split second straight down to the floor. Try going slower. Eventually you can work on a fast down but for now he needs to make the connection with the word. Have him think more by luring more slowly.

I also see you gave him treats for sitting. You can click/mark the sit to know you approve of that behavior, but when trying to teach him Down you should _only_ give him a treat for Down. He seems to really know Sit, so do mark it, but no treats for it! That's not his job right then, his job is learning Down.

Instead of immediately having him stand up and move to repeat the Down, if he stays Down on his own, click and give him 2-3 more treats by placing them on the floor between his paws. That way he learns Down is _extra_ rewarding.

Make sure you wait 2-3 seconds after saying "Relax" _before_ you lure. And remember- slower lure!

Also remember not to repeat the command. It's not "Relax, relax" it's "Relax." One time. Everyone is guilty of that one though, especially when you think the dog wasn't paying attention. Say it once, wait 2-3 seconds, then lure, mark and reward.

At 1:33-1:39 looked like a very good trial. See how he got it even though you didn't put your hand all the way down to the floor and it was a little further away from him? That's progress!


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Wow thanks for the tips. I didnt even think about the speed of my lure! I'll try this out and see how it goes. Lookin forward to really getting into it with the clicker. I need to find a box...


----------



## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

Have you considered shaping/capturing rather than luring? Catch him in the act of laying down (whether its during a training session or not) and click that behavior as he's doing it, then treat. It takes a little longer to get, but once he gets it, he may offer it more readily. Wait until he offers it regularly before adding the verbal command. Pebbles learns the basic behavior through luring, but to get consistency, I switch to capturing the act. For her, it helps her get to that "light bulb" moment.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0fV-SmpiCg&feature=youtu.be

Part 3 now haha

My girlfriend said that yesterday he actually did it on his own with no luring for the first time! She rewarded him heavily for it too. No dice when I tried it just now though.


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Looking better! Keep at it  It's so awesome he did it for her! Observe how she does it if she's able to be more successful and try to copy her. She might be doing it a little differently in a way he better understands.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

She said that she actually lured even slower than what I was doing. So I'll try that next and see how he responds!


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Use her method !!!

1. You are mixing luring and clicking, now. I don't believe that you should click before treating (the second time) when she is already lying down. Just click once to mark the correct behavior, then give the three treats.
2. In your videos, it looks like she is not being 'lured' ... but 'bribed' .... She doesn't Relax unless she sees the treat, and she Relaxes only to sniff your hand and get the treat. I don't think she's 'giving a behavior' ... I think she might be following a meal. I don't have a good fix.
3. If you can't reprduce your girlfriend's method, I like the capture method - Go into a boring room and ignore the dog. She will look at you, sniff, look, sit, look, slide to a Down, then sleep.... The cycle can take 15 min., and the room has to be boring with not interesting ditractions.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Well actually yesterday afternoon Andy started performing Relax without being lured! It's still 100% every time, and definitely not when there are distractions, but that's progress! And we were able to capture him laying down when we weren't interacting with him. A "natural settle" as Kikopup calls it.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Terrific ! That's where it starts. Keep it up for about 3 days, Slowly fine-tune the behavior, discriminate between Sit and Relax, then 'start-over' while slowly introducing little distractions.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Yea we're starting to slowly introduce distractions for Sit. It's been working pretty well. He actually sat even when playing with the cat yesterday!


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgR1dAXe7es&feature=youtu.be

Finally!


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Awesome!!!!! I'm so glad you got it!:whoo:


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Any comments on "crawl"? Just started trying to put that one in as well


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Don't rush it. Let him get really good at Relax over the next week or so before working on Crawl.

When working on Crawl, very slowly drag the treat toward yourself once he is down. Click for the slightest movement forward. You can very gradually get him to move more and more, scooting along the ground. He will stand up if you drag the treat too fast or if it gets out of reach so make sure it's really slow and doesn't get too far out of his reach. Make sure you throw in regular Relax commands too (and Sit) so he doesn't think that every time he lays down he is going to crawl. Otherwise you'll ask for Sit, and you'll get Sit-Down-Crawl instead! Keep them separate and mix them up.

Oh and don't say "Crawl" until he has learned the motion. Until he will scoot along the ground to follow the treat, don't even think about using the word!


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Oh ok thank you! What about working on something like "Shake"? Each time I try it he starts to gnaw at my hand when touching his paw. I'm trying to work on just click-treating for letting me touch his paw without biting haha


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Don't grab his paw. Dogs learn Shake much easier when they do the motion themselves. Wave a treat around pretty quickly several inches below his chin . He should get a little frustrated and lift his paw to try to stop your hand from moving. Presto! Click the instant he lifts either paw, even just a little bit off the floor. If he lays down, the treat is too low so keep it a little higher.

That would be fine to work on now since it's not related to Down.


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

At first, it doesn't matter which paw he uses. He'll probably figure it out and after several trials will begin using one paw and not the other. That's fine. For my dogs I taught "Paw" as their left paw, and "Other" as their right paw. I use "Shake" to mean shake off your fur.

Oh and again, don't say "Shake" until he's offering the behavior consistently with just the lure.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Great thanks for the tips! Much appreciated. I'll post updates of both him and my Aussie (after I get him on Sunday!)


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The videos are terrific! And, he's ready to be a learning machine 

1. I don't think that you need to use the clicker anymore. He doesn't appear to need it or respond to it. Looks more food driven.
2. In the video, he is learning to anticipate that you move him, say Sit, then say Relax. Each time, he appears to skip the Sit, more quickly.
3. So, slow down and wait 5 sec. between cues to give him a moment to hold the move, the Sit, and the Relax.
4. In a day or two, when he's discriminated Sit and Relax, you might re-train him using Down. It won't confuse him when you phase out the lure promptly.
5. Nothing to add to Sibe about Crawl. Initial confusion is common, so slow down between cues.
6. Ditto with "Shake" ... He may give one paw or then the other immediately as he's learning. Note that and focus/reward on a single paw. After a few days of a consistent, repeatable Shake, Give him the cue but hold off a few moments for the reward ... he may get frustrated and give you the other Paw, and you can start training/discriminating Paw/Other ... or Right/Left etc. as Sibe suggested.


----------



## jbuck92 (Sep 28, 2011)

Awesome thanks! I'll start working on making sure he can discriminate between sit and relax. I just started working on a natural settle as we'll with him. Trying to tame some of that puppy wildness. He's currently asleep on the bed as a result! Hurray for picking things up quickly.


----------

