# Engagement games



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

It was mentioned somewhere and I was wondering if anyone had any details. I would imagine things like NILF and using your dog's motivators as rewards build engagement. Any fancy techniques beyond that, I am not familiar with.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t3VMY-IVuw

This is the best basic engagement stuff I've seen. Not that you need it, but someone else might. Just - rewarding attention to the handler/interaction with the handler instead of the environment - then increasing the distractions in the environment just like anything else.

Hiding food under your hand and moving it around and the dog chase it. Having the dog chase you around. Playing tug. Honestly, any game that takes the dog's attention off the environment and puts it on YOU. That includes things like balls and disc because they're people game. ANY game you play with your dog instead of your dog just playing builds engagement.

Chewing a bone, won't. A dog running around with a jolly ball won't. A dog swimming, won't. But basically ANYTHING that is a game that you are an active participant in, and the dog has to engage with you to get to the fun is an engagement game.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

And start with rewarding any attention on YOU. Max would drop his head and sniff when he got overwhelmed. I stopped and rewarded when his head came up. No trouble if he couldn't pay attention to me but I let him know I appreciated his attention. It is mostly her personality rather than any skill of mine but Ginger has awesome handler focus. I noticed it right away and rewarded it. I was having issues handling 2 short leashes when I first got her and kept dropping one, I definitely appreciated that she paid attention to me rather than leaving if her leash dropped!

In class have your handlers watch the dog and reward any attention to the handler first off. Ears on you, eyes on dog. Should be the first thing instructors teach handlers! Bring buckets of tiny treats and eyes on the dog.

Then go into the fun little games. Doggy zen at first maybe? My dogs adore leg weaving, tug with rules, Max adored leash chasing, Ginger is a fiend at target/touch. I'd play crate games in class waiting my turn too. My dogs don't have good enough focus on me to play fetch, that is for more advanced dogs.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Good explanations, guys! And good video CptJack. I like Ellis a lot. I guess engagement is exactly what I thought it was and there are many ways of approaching it... I was just under the impression that there was a super specific/special game outside of what I already know.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I worked with a trainer who suggested that I make Watson work for every bit of food he got. If he wouldn't work, he didn't eat for that meal and got to try again next meal. This was more for building food drive though, not engagement.

Michael Ellis engagement training usually looks like waiting for the dog to offer attention, and then exploding into a really interesting handler with a toy or playing with food or running around. The dog has to "make" you be interesting. I didn't watch CptJack's link but since it's Ellis that's probably a bit of it.

Fenzi has a slightly different way of writing it down. She explains the first step of engagement as the handler being interesting and getting the dog to pay attention. Think of jumping around and making silly noises for a puppy. This builds up to a dog making the first move when you obviously have food or a toy on you. The final step is that the dog initiates work with no primary reinforcer in site, trusting that you will produce the goods. She eventually wants her dogs to work just for personal play. No back chaining to food outside the ring, just having the dog want to work knowing that the only reinforcement possible is interacting with their owner. She admits that most people don't care to get to this phase but that's what she strives for. She has an engagement class starting August 1st and I'm very excited to take it. Her blog posts explain it pretty well: http://denisefenzi.com/2015/02/14/stages-of-engagement-part-1/


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Ellis is actually, probably, my favorite 'famous' trainer. 

And yeah, he does talk about this a little, and nothing in that link implies he thinks you should wait on the dog to give you attention. He actually talks some about needing to sometimes let the dog's burn it off, but he'd prefer to channel the energy into a productive activity for him, that can be used for training/controlling obsession and picking up things that they self-satisfy with, while encouraging play with food and toys you have one you. The start's got some talk about laying groundwork of communication through being interesting, following lures, getting used to reinforcement and marker words and getting rewards for it and so on. Also that dogs do it on their time table and sometimes it's two session and sometimes you're still making your 8 month old chase around to convince them to interact/engage. 

I don't doubt that he talks about waiting for offered attention at some point, but not in that particular video. That particular one is, however, mostly geared toward puppies.

If you follow up on some of the other videos he talks a lot about transferring value from primary to secondary reinforcers, too, which is a similar sort of thing when the secondary reinforcer is play. I can't find that video again, though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SUcCH9rogA

THIS does deal with not asking the dog to come back, but he specifies it's with a young dog and avoiding developing bad habits/not getting stuck with the noise because it becomes habit and waiting a young dog out if you can. Nothing wrong with it (to quote him) but 'if you don't need it, don't use it. 

Which I think is a fair point. 

And darn it, I fell into youtube.


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