# Choosing my next sports dog



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I thought I'd ask the other sports enthusiasts here what they thought. I'm just trying to organize my thoughts and see what I should do.

I want to add a performance potential pup in the next 1-2 years. Depends on what happens with agility with the paps and classes with them. Need the funds for another dog to put through classes after all! I know I want something bigger than a papillon and a herding breed since I miss my herders. I keep floundering on WHICH breed though. 

The most logical choice is to get another sheltie. I know the breed like the back of my hand. They are a good fit with papillons. I know I could handle one, even a sports bred one. I have an acquaintance that competes at nationals levels with multiple MACH dogs and she would help me get a very nice sheltie puppy. I like the performance levels I see in some of the breed. I was not a fan of my last sheltie's temperament though- very soft and timid. I do not feel much draw to the breed at all despite owning 3 already. They seem a little.... flat? for me. Also, the range in size means many shelties are much smaller than I want (better for integration with the paps but my ideal is around 30 lbs)

I have considered an Aussie. I know some great aussie folk although my mentor, Sandy passed away last year. I have no doubts I could get a nice aussie from a superb breeder. I like the breed a lot but have some doubts about them. I think they're beautiful dogs, have a good work ethic and are great all arounders. Breeders and breed clubs have good heads on their shoulders and you don't see as much of a definite split in the breed, there's overlap. I like that. There also seems to be less vitriol between groups. But I see maybe 1 in 10 that performs to the level I'd want in agility. They also seem in general a little harder tempered and boisterous for the papillons. They're also in general larger than I want. A few are in my size range but not many.

Border collies: I absolutely adore border collies. When I'm around them I just think they are the most perfect dogs ever. Beautiful and driven and up for anything. Last night I was in heaven with my class full of border collies. They were all so well behaved and brilliant. The politics scare the crap out of me and I can't find a breeder who fits my ideal really. I know some border collie breeders personally and while I like their dogs, a lot are sport type dogs that are wayyyy high all the time. My favorites tend to be the middle of the road dogs who are farm bred (unregistered and un-health tested) or rescues. I want a pup which makes rescue difficult. My big hang up there is breeder and also wondering if I'm capable of a BC. I adore the ones I know and they are all really nice dogs who with being worked are not really as difficult as imagined. I don't want to get too much dog but when I think of a perfect dog, I think of a border collie. Size varies from fantastic to bigger than I want. I've always been really drawn to border collies. And this is totally petty but I also hate the notion that you get a border collie just because you want a 'real agility dog' (whatever tha tmeans). I enjoy having a less common breed at trials sometimes. But I can't shake that BCs are so darn perfect.

Pyr shep: Love them and have been in talks with about half the breeders in the US. They are quirky and fun and a great size (although some can be small for my taste). I like them so much I've gone out of my way to meet as many as possible. I found a breeder in the breed that is my ideal breeder almost. I just feel great about the breeder and have spent hours on the phone with her. They have a more complicated temperament that I am sure I could handle but they would potentially be a more primitive/quirky dog. The breeder I like breeds only rough coats though and I've grown to like them but worry about grooming and matting with all the hiking we do. I already have trouble with Mia's coat and burs. A lot of the rough coats cord naturally, which I don't like so it's quite a bit of work to keep up. I do like the dogs I've seen from the breeder in general when it comes to sports. But most people I've talked to with pyrsheps have had some environmental sensitivity issues with their dogs and sports training. Obviously they are good enough at it to be the breed to beat in europe in medium and border collies are certainly not immune to these issues either. I have kind of considered a pyrshep as an alternative to a sheltie that I like better. Performance wise, they seem varied but overall I like them a lot. I also feel very drawn to pyrsheps as well.

There is one fifth option but it's a breed I've not met and depends highly on a lot of circumstances ending up just right. I've watched videos and talked to people but have not met. I may get to go meet some this fall (hopefully).

Idk what I want.... words of advice or wisdom? I am looking primarily for an agility and disc dog. Probably nosework and maybe rally and dock diving. I think in all honesty I will have a few different breeds but not sure which now. This is the last dog I will have until one of my current dogs is gone. I'm probably overthinking it. I tend to.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I've followed your story for a while, and I'm very excited to see what you pick!

Here's how I see it: I think shelties and aussies are out. You just don't see excited about them, and I think you should get a breed you're super pumped to own.

That leaves BCs and pyr sheps. From my knowledge, it seems like the biggest drawback to pyr sheps would be the fear/reactivity issues. For a sport dog, I personally wouldn't want to run the risk in a breed known for those issues, since it's going to make competing that much more difficult. You also said that you don't like shelties who are too soft and timid, but what if you got a pyr shep who was similar? I don't have any first hand experience with the breed though, so if you don't think it would be an issue based on the ones you've met and the breeders you've talked to, then maybe there's not a problem there. It's a big worry I would have based on their reputation. You don't want to spend so much time focusing on fixing reactivity and fear that you can't focus on actually training for agility.

I'm kind of rooting for the BC here. I think you would be a great owner for one. Obviously, you have to be able to find a breeder you like though. I wouldn't find the politics that off putting unless I was going to breed, but that's me. You know a lot of BCs personally, so I would just pick the ones you like the best and start talking to their breeders. It's also possible that the ones you know who are high in the clouds all the time were the same way as puppies, and you could request one of the more medium pups from the litter. I just have to think that if you know so many BCs that you love, there has to be a breeder out there that is producing dogs you would like. Have you talked to people breeding for herding or working stock dog characteristics? Apparently they are less hyperactive than the sport bred dogs.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

FWIW-

Get the dog that speaks to your heart and then play to whatever extent that your heart dog can handle. My best friend and I play hard. Between us, we have 5 random rescues and a whippet. We are the classic "middle-aged-women-spending-too-much-time-and-money." Not one of our dogs was ever bred for performance and yet all of them perform pretty well. A couple of them are pretty brilliant.

Performance dogs need to be sound, both mentally and physically, but SO MUCH of the work after that relies on training. Also, so much depends on your goals. If you want to be a national champion, breeding matters a lot more than if you want a MACH. If your goals are more on the ordinary side, just find the dog that knocks your socks off and play.

For me, I play because it is one of the most satisfying ways that I can be with my dogs. I take training seriously and I have goals, but the journey is everything. I can't imagine trying to find a dog to enhance my performance. I just match my performance goals to the dogs who stole my soul.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

A couple of years ago I met a Pyr Shepherd at an Agility trial. I can't remember now how he did and have not seen him since, will have to look up and see how he has done. He was certainly a brave and friendly dog, did not seem timid at all.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> I've followed your story for a while, and I'm very excited to see what you pick!


Me too! I think once it gets here everything will be great. 



> Here's how I see it: I think shelties and aussies are out. You just don't see excited about them, and I think you should get a breed you're super pumped to own.


I think you are correct.  I am a very.... logical and overanalytical person. I like that shelties are a known quantity and they make good agility dogs. But.... not excited about the idea of getting a sheltie. 



> That leaves BCs and pyr sheps. From my knowledge, it seems like the biggest drawback to pyr sheps would be the fear/reactivity issues. For a sport dog, I personally wouldn't want to run the risk in a breed known for those issues, since it's going to make competing that much more difficult. You also said that you don't like shelties who are too soft and timid, but what if you got a pyr shep who was similar? I don't have any first hand experience with the breed though, so if you don't think it would be an issue based on the ones you've met and the breeders you've talked to, then maybe there's not a problem there. It's a big worry I would have based on their reputation. You don't want to spend so much time focusing on fixing reactivity and fear that you can't focus on actually training for agility.


I think reactivity and timidity is common in most herding breeds. I know lots of BCs who have such issues too. One interesting thing about pyrsheps is every owner I've talked to has said their dogs are not soft when training, however they do seem prone to being weirded out by things. Meeting the ones I have, I have not seen any more fear issues than I have in belgians, aussies, or border collies. Although the vast majority of pyrsheps I've met were the ones that made it to nationals. I did have that brought up to me.

It's interesting... they don't have the bad rap in Europe that they do here. Over there they are the go to medium dog. I think part of it is that they're just the dog to hate in agility circles sometimes. Not sure why. Of course it's something to think about for sure. Most pyrshep people have dealt with fear issues in some way. But most dogs work through it.

Another thing I can't figure out is I'm more concerned about BC energy level when everyone I've talked to with both has said that BCs are much calmer and much more apt to have an off switch than PS. I can't figure myself out there...



> Have you talked to people breeding for herding or working stock dog characteristics? Apparently they are less hyperactive than the sport bred dogs.


I have some, but there's a lot of.... drama. Saying you want to do AKC agility is one fo the most blasphemous things. There are a few I've found that allow you to ILP. Many don't health test. 



trainingjunkie said:


> FWIW-
> 
> Get the dog that speaks to your heart and then play to whatever extent that your heart dog can handle. My best friend and I play hard. Between us, we have 5 random rescues and a whippet. We are the classic "middle-aged-women-spending-too-much-time-and-money." Not one of our dogs was ever bred for performance and yet all of them perform pretty well. A couple of them are pretty brilliant.
> 
> ...


I am definitely not wanting a perfect sports dog by any means. I hope it did not come across that way. I just want a dog that will play and play hard for a long while. And I want a puppy mostly because I enjoy puppies and haven't had one in a while. 

Breed picking is kind of terrifying, lol. I have NEVER picked a breed for myself. I've always ended up with the breed the family had. So the idea of something totally different is a little intimidating.



Kyllobernese said:


> A couple of years ago I met a Pyr Shepherd at an Agility trial. I can't remember now how he did and have not seen him since, will have to look up and see how he has done. He was certainly a brave and friendly dog, did not seem timid at all.


Most I've met range from in your face friendly to just not giving a hoot about you and ignoring you. The first pyrshep I met ended up jumping all over me and giving me kisses. lol


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

If you don't think that the timidity/reactivity issue would be worse in a pyr shep vs a BC, then that's out as a consideration. 

BC breeders would be against you showing in AKC agility? Why? I realize there are a lot of politics related to conformation, but I didn't realize it extended to agility too. Is it just because they don't want their dogs registered with AKC?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> If you don't think that the timidity/reactivity issue would be worse in a pyr shep vs a BC, then that's out as a consideration.


I definitely think pyrsheps have more of a propensity towards 'weirdness' but I'm not sure it's as bad as people make it out to be in the US. (If that makes sense). I worry more about drive though in pyrsheps. 



> BC breeders would be against you showing in AKC agility? Why? I realize there are a lot of politics related to conformation, but I didn't realize it extended to agility too. Is it just because they don't want their dogs registered with AKC?


It depends on the breeder. Most working breeders are unhappy with the AKC and the way the AKC took in the breed. Some do not want their dogs to have anything to do with the AKC and do not want their dogs bringing money to the AKC and will not allow their dogs to even be ILP'd. I'm sure there's nothing they could do if you just did it anyways but I will respect that opinion, however, AKC is the main game here. I need to be able to ILP at least. There is also a decent portion of working breeders that will only sell to working homes. Again, I understand but it wouldn't work for me.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

A lot of people who breed working lines have "issues" with AKC. I'm thinking nextdog might be a working line GSD. I'd love to have him/her AKC registered as well so that we could compete as a purebred in AKC events, but finding a working line breeder, who breeds rough coated GSDs (which I would love to have up here), AND co-registers with AKC? That might be tough. LOL Good thing I have a good long time to look!

I'm sure the right dog will turn up. Sometimes the harder you have to look, the better it works out long-term.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> A lot of people who breed working lines have "issues" with AKC. I'm thinking nextdog might be a working line GSD. I'd love to have him/her AKC registered as well so that we could compete as a purebred in AKC events, but finding a working line breeder, who breeds rough coated GSDs (which I would love to have up here), AND co-registers with AKC? That might be tough. LOL Good thing I have a good long time to look!


The vast majority of US-based working line GSD breeders I know register their dogs with the AKC. Are things really that different where you are?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

It seems really self-defeating for these people to have an issue with the AKC. I can understand not wanting your dogs to compete in conformation for certain reasons, but if a prospective owner is into a sport, the breeder should be happy about that, not put up roadblocks. Seems petty. I guess I see now why politics would impact your ownership.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it is mostly a cultural thing... I do get it, honestly. It just wouldn't work for me.

I know nothing about working line GSDs though.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Well you know what I think 

BCs, Shelties, PyrSheps and Aussies can all be prone to reactivity and "weirdness". BCs and Shelties can have jumping issues, so that's one thing I'd be very careful about when buying one for sports. Flyball wouldn't matter so much but agility, ETS or being too "crashy" can be extremely hard to get through. I do think BCs, Aussies and the more sporty Shelties are probably similar as housedogs tending to be fairly easy with good off switches. PyrSheps are busy. Very busy. I have talked to multiple Aussies people who looked into them due to them being a foundation breed for Aussies and decided against it because...well "Aussie on crack" is something I've heard more than once LOL But they're very charming in their own hyperactive, hyper alert, ADD way...if you like that sort of thing 



packetsmom said:


> A lot of people who breed working lines have "issues" with AKC. I'm thinking nextdog might be a working line GSD. I'd love to have him/her AKC registered as well so that we could compete as a purebred in AKC events, but finding a working line breeder, who breeds rough coated GSDs (which I would love to have up here), AND co-registers with AKC? That might be tough. LOL Good thing I have a good long time to look!


 Most US working line GSDs which are bred to USA/SV standard are AKC registered. They actually _have_ to be because that is the FCI registry in our country. You may have an issue finding a working breeder selecting specifically for long coats but the coated gene is pretty widespread in the breed, so they aren't exactly rare or hard to find.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alerondogs said:


> But they're very charming in their own hyperactive, hyper alert, ADD way...if you like that sort of thing


Well, she likes Mia, so I would wager that is the sort of thing she likes. Maybe it's pyr sheps for the win, then?


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Well, she likes Mia, so I would wager that is the sort of thing she likes. Maybe it's pyr sheps for the win, then?


 LOL exactly 

Honestly, I have never heard of a more suitable potential PyrShep owner. And the RFs still look cute with haircuts


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Haha. Just clone me Savvy already. Or move closer so I can at least come hang out with you and Emily and the muppet.

Pyr sheps sound like a breed full of Mias, although all the sheps I've met are much friendlier than Mia. lol

ETA: There is no doubt I will have a pyrshep as one of the next couple dogs. I think there is a high likelihood I end up with a pyrshep and a border collie as the next two.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> The vast majority of US-based working line GSD breeders I know register their dogs with the AKC. Are things really that different where you are?


To be perfectly fair, I only know one working line GSD breeder so far, but they only breed smooth coated dogs. They do register with AKC, but only grudgingly and only because they like doing agility and other AKC events with their dogs. I got the impression from them (which may be completely false) that they were one of the few who did. In very casual searches online for working line GSD breeders who breed rough coated dogs, I found few that did AKC registration. Granted, it was a very, very short casual search, because I am nowhere near being ready for nextdog and likely won't for several years.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I've been watching you have this internal debate for a long time and I think you should get a pyrshep.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> I've been watching you have this internal debate for a long time and I think you should get a pyrshep.


Maybe I should do a vote.  Vote on what Lauren's next dog will be.

Yes, I am a chronic overthinker.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Maybe I should do a vote.  Vote on what Lauren's next dog will be.



Pyr-f***ing-Shep.  You will love one.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I vote Pyr Shep for the general diversity of breeds on the forum and because I want to see lots of pictures of one and videos of it doing agility. Because, of course, this decision is ALL about what's best for the forum!  LOL!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

And when you get one, please get one like this one...it's too cool looking and look, it's already doing agility!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Alerondogs said:


> LOL exactly
> 
> Honestly, I have never heard of a more suitable potential PyrShep owner. And the RFs still look cute with haircuts


I have always said I would never shave a dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

packetsmom said:


> And when you get one, please get one like this one...it's too cool looking and look, it's already doing agility!


I love the smooth faces but they're not very common over here. The breeder I really like doesn't breed any smooth faces although several other breeders I've talked to and would be happy to get a dog from do. They're only about 10% of the total breed population.

Then you end up with Savvys that are supposed to be smooth faced and then sprout facial hair.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> I vote Pyr Shep for the general diversity of breeds on the forum and because I want to see lots of pictures of one and videos of it doing agility. Because, of course, this decision is ALL about what's best for the forum!  LOL!


[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omPBtbIoVVE&feature=share&list=UUu6HpHkWJ0MS1xxYuXo35nA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omPBtbIoVVE&feature=share&list=UUu6HpHkWJ0MS1xxYuXo35nA
[/URL]

http://youtu.be/Jtvi65jeMdU




Laurelin said:


> Then you end up with Savvys that are supposed to be smooth faced and then sprout facial hair.


 They certainly can surprise you! Savvy's coat also changes a couple times a year. Right now he's more furry, scruffy faced and darker. Sometimes he's lighter with more wispy hair and less facial scruff.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah.... just give me him. Holy crap, he is fun. I always forget how big he is. 

Wish I lived closer.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

I would say Pyr Shep or Border Collie. I think you'd be over the moon happy with either one.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I don't think anyone doubts your ability to handle a Pyr shepherd or a BC.  I think you'd be a great owner! As much as I love border collies, I'm voting PS! They sound ideal for you, and it comes across in your posts (to me at least) that you want that breed over anything.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

I say pyr shep for forum diversity  Plus you can avoid the politics. IMO you sound just a tad more excited about the pyr shep...but if you go the BC route they are cute as well


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm on team pyr shep now. They're not the dog for everyone, but from what I have heard (on this thread and other sites) they sound like a great fit for you. Most people are looking for an off switch, but you seem to love squirrel-on-crack dogs, so they are perfect! Plus, as much as I like border collies, I'm always a big fan of the rare and less represented breeds and getting to learn more about them. Plus, you already know some breeders you would be thrilled to get a puppy from.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I've been watching you have this internal debate for a long time and I think you should get a pyrshep.


Ditto. I think it's what you want, I think you're just afraid of it, a little. 

But to me I kind of suspect you're not going to be as happy with anything else, because it feels like this is your dream.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I know my perspective is skewed, but here it is anyway:

I think there's a danger in attributing the characteristics we love/hate about individual dogs to the dog's breed instead of to the individual. I'm sure some BC's would be perfect for you, and some wouldn't. And some pyrsheps would be perfect for you, and some wouldn't. In fact, there's probably a lot of BC's out there with pyrshep temperaments and vice versa! I think people get caught up in breed too much.

The other thing about breed is that everyone wants something unique. No one wants to be the hundredth BC/handler team entered in an agility trial. In fact, just today a friend of mine was bemoaning the overabundance of BC's at an upcoming agility trial. But you know what? There's a reason that there's so many - they're really perfect for the sport. If you don't want a BC, no problem, but don't get something else just to be different.


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