# Which breeder do I choose?



## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Option A: Breeds therapy dogs, does not show and does not belong to any of the typical breed clubs because she feels strongly that they prioritize show qualities over health. Puppies come with all health checks appropriate to this breed, a five year genetic health guarantee, and microchipped. HOWEVER, she has not one but TWO litters available (born within 3 weeks of each other), and when I google it looks like two other breeds of dog are also available from this farm. Puppy mill??? I'll check it out, but I want some sense of certainty before driving 3.5 hours and getting my daughter excited over puppies. She got very defensive when I said I wanted a particular color and gender, as though I shouldn't care.

Option B: Breeds dogs for show, openly admits that her litters are geared toward producing a show dog that she can keep and the others are sold as pets. Repeatedly referenced appearances (speaking negatively of someone else breeding primarily for temperament "so I asked why not breed for the total package---including looks?"). Personally, I do not care about looks, I care about health and temperament. However, she was referred to me by a breed club and does not appear to be running anything akin to a puppy mill and she does offer the typical health checks etc as well.

Which would you choose?


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

Well we know that Option A is bad. And someone who openly declares that they don't give a crap about health or temperament is also bad. Is there some reason why these are the only choices? I say neither.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Both sound like irresponsible breeders to me, albeit for completely different reasons. Keep looking.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Did you ever find out if Option A does all the health testing? I know that JohnnyBandit couldn't find anything on her dogs. Were you able to find anything? Some breeders prefer to have 2 litters close together, in case one of the mothers can't nurse, they have an automatic surrogate, so that alone wouldn't put me off as long as everything else was OK. The fact that she has so many breeds/mixes concerns me, though. That just sounds iffy.

Option B sounds like a jerk. . .but have you met her dogs? Are they nice, stable pets? She may not be breeding for temperment but maybe her dogs are nice anyway. If she does all the proper testing and is otherwise ethical, it might be worth puttting up with her long enough to buy a puppy. 

I agree that if there are any Option Cs or Ds, that would be preferable.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Option A sounded very much like a puppy mill; it wasn't just 2 litters close together, it was 4-5 breeds and breed mixes available to purchase on NextDayPets and other known puppy broker type sites, purposefully breeding extra-small (out of standard) "teacup" dogs and no apparent regard for planned breeding as she was selling a male because he was a "breeding machine" and her other male of that breed wasn't "getting a chance to breed my females"

Option B sounds at least like she has a plan to her breeding program and goals even if you don't agree with her goals. But since that isn't what you are looking for, why aim to get a dog from her? 

Option C .... yep, that's a good option


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Personally I would choose neither and go searching for more options till I found the right fit.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

OP here --- whoa, I'm not sure what post some of you are responding to, where did I say 4-5 breeds and NextDayPets? Nor did I say that Option B doesn't care about temperament. 

Allow me to rephrase the question. Both breeders pass the initial criteria that they perform the necessary health checks and they are scrutinizing the buyer as I would expect. However, that doesn't mean they are necessarily responsible breeders and I'm trying to discern whether they are.

Option B's legitimacy is coming mainly from being "known", i.e. I was referred to her by a breed club; but that breed club is made up of show dog people who of course all know each other. Are people who breed dogs specifically for showing, thereby prioritizing the breed standard above all else, necessarily responsibly breeding healthy dogs (as opposed to people who breed for other reasons, such as therapy dogs)? She certainly does care about temperament, but her aim is a dog whose temperament will be suitable *in the show ring*, and not necessarily as a family pet. I'm sure she cares about her dogs and takes good care of them, but I wonder if there are better criteria for producing a healthy pet then the ones AKC put out there?

Option A --- so is the consensus that this is a puppy mill, or is it possible for a responsible breeder to have multiple litters? This is what she said about it: "When females run together in large fenced in areas one brings another into season so I typically always have my litters 2 to 3 weeks apart and then none for several months from a different set of ladies". Maybe I'd buy that, but when I google Blessed Acres Farm Virginia, I'm also seeing King Charles Spaniels and something called a Maltizu ("designer" breed??). But, this certainly doesn't sound like a heartless kennel: "The pups are raised in a custom designed cottage with climate control its like a little vacation cottage so I can begin potty training. I used to raise them in my kitchen but this is much healthier for the pups and happier for my clients it gives them an entire room to call their own. Pups are handled by children and adults more than just our family and have mild exposure to goats, horses and a cat all prior to leaving."


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

sparklebacon said:


> OP here --- whoa, I'm not sure what post some of you are responding to, where did I say 4-5 breeds and NextDayPets? Nor did I say that Option B doesn't care about temperament.


In your other thread asking about the breeder A (Blessed Acres Farm), I googled them and found what I was referring to above: many breeds, broker websites etc.

NextDayPets Blessed Acres For Sale
Shih Tzu stud for sale
14 month Collie stud for sale, not housebroken
Tea Cup Shih Tzu with focus on breeding for rare colors

The collie I noted because if the breeder is starting her puppies on potty training in these "cottages" then why would she have a 14 month old dog of her own that she was considering using in her breeding program that isn't housetrained? I wonder what his living situation/conditions are....
As for the tea cup shih tzu, in general, breeding already small breeds smaller with the intention of selling them as "tea cup" or other cute names for tiny tends to lends to genetic problems, health issues and breeding which ignores other desirable traits in order to breed for unusual size.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Option B sounds better. You may not have liked her phrasing, but good breeders are out to better their breed, and so they are breeding two dogs together with the purpose of (hopefully) getting a puppy that's better than either parent. They are going to keep that best puppy for their program; that's just good breeding practices. It's like my papillon's breeder once said to me: "The world is not short of pets. I think the purpose of breeding is to be protecting the species from morphing... to maintain its genetics, health, purpose and integrity. By breeding the best to the best to always be improving or maintaining the breed. Pets are a by-product." I'd ask option B to sum up her breeding philosophy for you; she may just have used clumsy phrasing when accusing someone else of breeding only for temperament (perhaps she meant that they are breeding structurally unsound dogs just because they're the friendliest? Who knows).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sparklebacon said:


> Option B's legitimacy is coming mainly from being "known", i.e. I was referred to her by a breed club; but that breed club is made up of show dog people who of course all know each other. Are people who breed dogs specifically for showing, thereby prioritizing the breed standard above all else, necessarily responsibly breeding healthy dogs (as opposed to people who breed for other reasons, such as therapy dogs)? She certainly does care about temperament, but her aim is a dog whose temperament will be suitable *in the show ring*, and not necessarily as a family pet. I'm sure she cares about her dogs and takes good care of them, but I wonder if there are better criteria for producing a healthy pet then the ones AKC put out there?"


What makes you think that a suitable show dog isn't also a good family pet? Nearly all of the show dogs I know are wonderful, loved pets. They do well in the show ring partly because they are well-socialized with people (and other dogs), and because they aren't easily rattled. Also, the breed standard contains everything about how a dog should be, structurally, temperamentally, in color and markings, etc. The standard calls for the total package. Why would it be wrong to prioritize that?

My papillon started out as a show dog; she was trained for show and earned four points in the ring before she grew more and got too tall. I bought her from the breeder and ended up with a lovely pet -- already loose-leash trained (from ring training), unflappable even around unpredictable small children (thanks to the breeder socializing her), wonderful at vet appointments (because she'd been trained to stand for judge exam). There is absolutely nothing about being a show dog that would make a dog unsuitable as a pet.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

sparklebacon said:


> Are people who breed dogs specifically for showing, thereby prioritizing the breed standard above all else, necessarily responsibly breeding healthy dogs (as opposed to people who breed for other reasons, such as therapy dogs)? She certainly does care about temperament, but her aim is a dog whose temperament will be suitable *in the show ring*, and not necessarily as a family pet. I'm sure she cares about her dogs and takes good care of them, but I wonder if there are better criteria for producing a healthy pet then the ones AKC put out there?


The breed standards are standards for a reason. They are there to promote sound, healthy and temperamentally fit dogs. If you don't care about a dog being bred to breed standards, there are many wonderful collies and goldens (and many other breeds, those are just the ones you've been asking about) available in rescue. Many of those in rescue are actually quite well trained and healthy, you just don't get the benefit of known genetics--- which you also do NOT get if you buy from a backyard breeder or anyone breeding without careful planning and genetic testing and physical health testing. 

Show dogs come in many forms and while there are some breeds which have "show lines" and "working lines" with different traits more desirable in each line, overall, show dogs are expected to have basically all the qualities that make for great pets. 
(And there are "show" dogs which aren't even purebreds or breeding dogs but who are competing in rally, obedience, agility etc; heck, Chester is AKC registered even  )


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

option B is "better" but I still would not touch her. I would also say neither.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Shell----kudos on the sleuthing! You're right...why would she be selling a 14-month-old "stud" that isn't housebroken...gosh, the collies I've had took to housetraining with no issue at all. I could see if she were helping find a home for an older dog with issues, but then she wouldn't be selling him intact ("stud"!). Definitely fishy. And thank you for explaining about the "tea cup" breeds (is this the whole Paris Hilton thing? Dog as purse accessory?). Ok, well that settles that issue. Too bad, she was talking the right talk, and I was really hoping she just had an active therapy dog farm.

Crantastic---you're right. I think I'll take a drive out there, see how she keeps her dogs, and talk to her more about breeding for show versus breeding for health or pet disposition. I guess it does make sense that most good breeders are probably breed enthusiasts (who thereby show). As the one I got my first dog from said, "You do this for the love of it. Anyone making money off it isn't doing it right".


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you went to visit my papillon's breeder, you'd walk into her house and be mobbed by wagging show dogs who wanted you to pat them and then throw a ball! There's no way you'd think of them as unsuitable pets after that. 



















Definitely go meet the breeder and the dogs. Some people make a much more favorable impression in person, and her dogs, like those papillons, will also speak for themselves.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for the encouragement. I was just worried it would be all about working toward a dog that looks a certain way as opposed to the healthiest dog possible. And being in a show ring is totally different from playing ball in the backyard  But you make excellent points. I'll check it out. I'm just upset that the other lady seemed so great...thank goodness for google.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Some breeders do care just about looks, but you said that this one also does the proper health testing, so that's encouraging. You also said that she cares about temperament -- you thought that show temperament and pet temperament are somehow different, but they're not, really. The same qualities make a dog successful in each place. I think you will learn a lot more and be better able to make a decision once you meet her and her dogs. Good luck!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Is Option A the same Breeder that you had on the other thread? If so.... She is not good.... I found very little on her and pointed out holes in things she said right on her website. 

Option B....


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Yes, Laura Collins of Blessed Acres collies in Virginia. She seemed very discerning of who she would sell to and offered the health testing/ophthalmologist testing I would expect, and she was fine with me coming to visit before putting down any kind of a deposit. Everything would have sounded fine, until I started realizing just how many dogs she's breeding at once (2 collie litters in the same month, at least three other breeds on the same farm, in addition to breeding horses). If her focus is therapy dogs, it would make sense that the Collie Club of America people wouldn't know her to refer me. She went on to say she's anti CCA because they are "pro CEA" which I took to mean that she objects to people who breed for show without making genetic disease a number one priority. But yeah, Option A is too fishy for me to even take a chance with.


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Why would a breeder not care about temperament?

I like breeder one better, but thats just from reading the original post.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Following up to thank everyone for warning me about Blessed Acres. When I responded with my concerns that she had multiple collie litters in addition to King Charles Spaniels, Pomeranians, Shih Tzus, and Maltese crosses (Maltipom/Maltizu), this was her response, which entirely confirms to me that she's just running a puppy mill and isn't interested in anyone questioning her about it (I was not rude with my questions):

No I only breed Collies and MalShi

I haven't had Poms or Cavaliers in years but those things never leave the internet

But I think it would be best for you to move on

Thanks, Laura

*One more note...it takes such a commitment to really know a breed, care for several generations and nurture the line, that it has to be a labor of love. So how does it make sense that she's chronically changing the breeds she's raising?


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

sparklebacon said:


> No I only breed Collies and MalShi
> 
> I haven't had Poms or Cavaliers in years but those things never leave the internet
> 
> ...


Out of the three dogs she has listed on NextDayPets, the Shih Tzu says it's available March 24/*2012*, the Pom says it's available March 20/*2012*, and the Maltipom March 19/*2012*. Which tells me that right now, she has at _least_ 3 different litters on the ground, ALL different breeds. All at the same time. It also tells me that they are RECENTLY listed and not just something thats been archived on the internet. And on PuppyFind she also has a Chinese Imperial listed that was able to go in Feb/*2012*.

Now add all this to the Collie's and MalShi's that she supposedly breeds, and I'd say you have a huge BYB and would stay far away!


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Yup. So now there's proof that she's lying to me. Which makes her health guarantees worthless. After I responded "I agree, best of luck", she followed with this howler:

Its a real shame that you let something you read on a list about raising multiple breeds equal puppy mill

I am copy and pasting one of the reviews that was posted about my place and my collies online

I am not interested in selling you a puppy because I think in the back of your mind you will always think backyyard breeder; but I am sorry that you will probably have to settle for a puppy with less health testing and a lesser guarantee mine is 5years by a potentially inexperienced breeder there is no way you can get this type of knowledge only breeding several litters a year.

The most experienced Collie breeder I know has over 50 Collies at all times from I have been told never actually been in her kennel and has been breeding over 60 years
She produces some of the best collies that there are and her prices start at 1000 and go up to 2500. Her name is Laura Van M and she is located in NJ.

Our Belle

Laura Collins - Blessed Acres Farm (Collies) is a genuine pleasure and conscientious breeder. Our new collie pup, Belle is not only beautiful, but is the most well adjusted and intelligent puppy we have ever seen (and we are experienced dog owners). We had a long trip home and Belle took it all in stride. Everyone ADORES her and she has had lots of interaction with people and our two cats! She is an angel and cuddly while confident and brave...definitely special...raised with Love! Laura offers very helpful advice and provides proper information to ensure a healthy, happy experience. Everyone was very impressed by the informational binder that Laura assembled! Including, the front photo cover! Our vet agreed with everything Laura included and mentioned that she is a good breeder…and did an excellent job at socializing the puppy. We agree! This is a fabulous experience and we are blessed to share it with you and your family. Laura does GOOD!
Reviewer: Karen, September 29, 2011

By the way Karen and her husband were here several hours took videos of the entire farm all the dogs, horses and goats and we still very pleased with everything they encountered


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sparklebacon said:


> The most experienced Collie breeder I know has over 50 Collies at all times from I have been told never actually been in her kennel and has been breeding over 60 years
> She produces some of the best collies that there are and her prices start at 1000 and go up to 2500. Her name is Laura Van M and she is located in NJ.


LOL, the fact she used this person (showmill?) as an example says a lot. "Oh, yes, I really care about my dogs and I produce the best Collies evar, but I can't be bothered to even go to my own kennels and see how they're actually being raised". Yup, there's a great breeder .


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

I know, isn't that crazy! And I'm just shocked by the idea that anyone thinks they can humanely house over 50 collies at once, like they are cattle. Wow. I hope this thread saves someone else some time and anxiety---what a relief I didn't drive 7 hours round trip with my young daughter to see this place! I'll never criticize show dog breeders again, sheesh.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, there are show breeders like that, too. Don't blindly buy from someone just because they show. You can't say "all pet breeders are like this" and "all show breeders are like that"; you have to look at them individually.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

The show breeders are referred by the clubs they belong to. Is it not a reasonable assumption that it's in the clubs best interest to not refer to breeders with questionable practices?


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Well, there are show breeders like that, too. Don't blindly buy from someone just because they show. You can't say "all pet breeders are like this" and "all show breeders are like that"; you have to look at them individually.


I definitely agree with this. Breeders will have different visions and focus for their dogs. Some breeders will concentrate more on dogs that are excellent in confirmation, others will look more at their dogs' drive or their aptitude for things like agility or herding or lure coursing. But GOOD breeders will try to find a balance that gives them a good overall dog, not one that's just beautiful or just a good herder, etc to the detriment of their other attributes. You want a breeder that's trying to improve the breed AS A WHOLE. That's why I think breeder B who says that temperment is unimportant is irresponsible.

You definitely have to talk to the breeders and meet their dogs in order to make an informed decision.

BTW, there has been a lot of controversy surrounding the collie breeder that she is refering to.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Rowdy said:


> BTW, there has been a lot of controversy surrounding the collie breeder that she is refering to.


I'd love to know where. If I'd found controversy surrounding Blessed Acres in the first place, it would have saved me some grief. That's why I'm hoping its name coming up here will spare someone else in the future.

I'm now looking at these

www.hillcroftcollies.com
www.takodacollies.com/Main.html

If that doesn't work out...ack, I'll give up and look for a golden instead! Lol..yeah right, like that will be any easier.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm glad you found out before buying your puppy! 

Googling the new links you posted... I (personally) would shy away from the Hllcroft breeder too, just because she seems to be promoting a Wyndlair Avalance son (and if you google Wyndlair Avalanche on this board or on the internet, you'll see he is a huge controversy in the dog world). But that's because I would, personally, never buy from a breeder who is okay with breeding a blind/deaf double merle like that. Or having one of his pups for my lines, either. 

Didn't see any health info on the Tak kennel website. Their dogs are beautiful, especially the smoothies!

Jen


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Wow jenz, I just googled Wyndlair Avalance and I'm horrified. And this sort of breeding is acceptable to the breed clubs they belong to?? I didn't see the Wyndlair Avalance son on the Hillcroft website but maybe I need to look more closely. 

I swear, I'm starting to despair of this whole endeavor! I even went back to looking at golden retriever breeders again, emailing one that was highly recommended on a golden forum, and she informed me that companion pet puppies are $2000 and I shouldn't expect anyone reputable to charge less (!!). A dozen years ago, I paid $500 for my dogs and they were healthy, amazing animals, but then again I lived in the midwest then. Is this an east coast thing?? I've heard the rationale that this is a trivial amount of money for a companion you'll have for a dozen years or more as part of your family...funny how no one would make that argument about a $2000 cat or other long lived family pet. They almost act offended that one should ask about price. I'm happy to pay $1000 for a healthy dog, but $2k??

I don't get why this has to be so difficult. Every other profession I interact with in a highly personal or high priced financial transaction is well regulated and often needs to be licensed. My hairdresser, the guy who works on my car, my real estate agent, certainly any medical professional, any teacher or childcare worker...but the state has no interest in ensuring that consumers and animals are protected from unscrupulous breeders? Why can't I go to the state and see an inspection history, like I do with childcare facilities? Why can't I see a license hanging on a wall and deal with confidence knowing that the breeder is acting ethically in the best interests of the dogs she cares for?


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Yes, the Collie Club of America allows registration of the offspring of double merle dogs, something that I believe the breed clubs for several other breeds that have the merle gene have chosen to ban. It's quite the controversy and I agree, it's horrifying.

Sparklebacon, it really sounds like you're thinking about this critically and I think that's wonderful and absolutely appropriate. I was wondering -- have you considered rescue? Either breed specific rescue or otherwise? Rescues can be really wonderful dogs, everything you could possibly want, and if you get one that has been fostered first you'll have a very good idea of what the temperament is like. I think you said you're located in NoVa and I have a decent amount of knowledge about the local rescue groups (and volunteer with one of them). If you PM me I'd be happy to make recommendations or help you out in any way I can.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Have you thought about looking outside the state of Virginia to the surrounding states? You are kind of limiting yourself if you are just looking at VA breeders. 

Which Golden breeder did you contact? If you feel more comfortable telling me in a PM that is ok.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Lycinan Goldens in Maryland. I'm limiting myself to driving distance because I don't like the idea of shipping dogs, I want to have the opportunity to check out the living conditions of the dogs prior to committing to a deposit, and frankly I want to share with my daughter that rare and wonderful experience of having a lapful of puppies climbing all over you and you actually get to pick one to keep forever when it's big enough to come home---there a few moments in life that top that!


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

hamandeggs, thank you for the compliment, and I do take this responsibility very seriously.

There are several reasons why I have opted against rescue, though it is a perfectly respectable choice and one that everyone I know advocates. I have met some lovely pets (at least in terms of temperament, I can't speak to health) that have been adopted from rescue.

1) I feel that we have two obligations to the dog world. One, to find suitable homes for every dog already with us (rescue). Two, support responsible breeding. If no one does the latter, then all dogs will ultimately come from irresponsible breeders, by definition, because responsible breeders don't allow their dogs to end up in rescue (I look for these stipulations in their contracts). The dams and the puppies deserve quality care, and puppies deserve the best possible start in life, including careful attention to the health/temperament of the line they are coming from. The goal should be for zero dogs to come to rescue in the first place; not for all owners to get their dogs from rescue.

2) I have a small child and I am carefully choosing a breed that I feel will be suitable to family life. Good breeding lends some predictability to the sort of behaviors the dog can be expected to have (both pro and con). But, more importantly, it reduces the chance that we'll have to endure the emotional impact of a pet becoming sick or dying before its time. My parents got a collie once from what was most likely a backyard breeder (back then, they thought that if a dog had AKC papers then that was enough); the dog died dramatically on the kitchen floor one day of a congenital heart defect. Anything can happen to any dog, but I feel a responsibility to minimize the chance of a preventable tragedy.

3) I want a puppy because I love the work of having a puppy and enjoy every minute of training and socializing. I believe it's much more difficult to re-train a dog that has missed that window or had damaging experiences then to start with a young puppy. Frankly, it's akin to why I have my own biological child rather than adopting an older foster child; I don't think I'm qualified for the additional challenges of the latter.

4) When I looked at rescues, the collies available either had health issues or were much older. I want the dog we bond with to be healthy and happy for as many years as possible with us.

5) Frankly, I think the approach that many rescues have chosen to take is obnoxious. They essentially drive people to backyard breeders by making the adoption process patronizing and lengthy. Some will see a dog put down rather than placed in a home with children or where the dog will be alone for any length of time. Many do home checks, and treat people as though they can't possibly be responsible enough to deserve this dog. I'm not saying all rescues are this way, but many have volunteers who come off as smug and condescending. I'm also not fond of the people I've met who like to show off their rescue dog, as though the dog is a badge of their charitability rather than a fully loved companion who just happened to have a rough beginning. Again---I don't mean to offend, by no means is everyone like that, but I'm sure we've all met people who consider rescue to be the morally superior choice. I'm simply advocating for a balanced approach and some progress toward the vision of all dogs having the right start in life.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

sparklebacon said:


> Lycinan Goldens in Maryland. I'm limiting myself to driving distance because I don't like the idea of shipping dogs, I want to have the opportunity to check out the living conditions of the dogs prior to committing to a deposit, and frankly I want to share with my daughter that rare and wonderful experience of having a lapful of puppies climbing all over you and you actually get to pick one to keep forever when it's big enough to come home---there a few moments in life that top that!


What do you consider driving distance? Are PA and WV included (both reasonable from Northern VA)? What breeds are you looking at? Pesonally show bred dogs are usually better temperamentally, you just want to make sure any potential breeder is doing the appropriate health testing.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

cshellenberger said:


> What do you consider driving distance? Are PA and WV included (both reasonable from Northern VA)? What breeds are you looking at?


I'm looking at roughly a 3 hour driving distance max. Collies and golden retrievers. Open to suggestions if you know any reputable breeders!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shipping dogs is easy, safe and nothing to worry about if you choose the right breeder......Dogs are flown out every day.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I'll PM you some names of Golden breeders that I know of.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Not offended, and I think your stance is reasonable. Especially since it sounds like what you really want is a purebred, and the breed-specific rescues rarely if ever have young puppies. We came very close to getting a purebred Lab for many of the same reasons you describe. And, to be honest, I don't disagree with you about how annoying invasive the rescue adoption process can be. I'm glad you're being responsible. Good luck!


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks hamandeggs, and I need to add that, as a new member, I'm really impressed by this forum. I fully expected to get flamed, or for every other post to be something useless (like condescendingly pointing out the obvious time/work/money a dog requires). Every single person who has posted in response to me has been helpful, friendly, and completely sane and rational. I'm really glad I found these forums!


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

sparklebacon said:


> Thanks hamandeggs, and I need to add that, as a new member, I'm really impressed by this forum. I fully expected to get flamed, or for every other post to be something useless (like condescendingly pointing out the obvious time/work/money a dog requires). Every single person who has posted in response to me has been helpful, friendly, and completely sane and rational. I'm really glad I found these forums!


We love dogs and while we (speaking in general) can be harsh, it is because we are looking out for the best interest of the dog, not the human. But, we are very glad to have you here too because we will need some puppy pictures once you get this little rascal!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

sparklebacon said:


> Thanks hamandeggs, and I need to add that, as a new member, I'm really impressed by this forum. I fully expected to get flamed, or for every other post to be something useless (like condescendingly pointing out the obvious time/work/money a dog requires). Every single person who has posted in response to me has been helpful, friendly, and completely sane and rational. I'm really glad I found these forums!


You are looking for a dog in a responsible manner and thinking clearly and reasonably about your needs. That kind of thinking won't get you flamed here.
I am a big promoter of rescue sure, but that's because many many people can find a good, suitable dog for them in rescue. But I have absolutely nothing against responsible breeding and know that many responsible breeders also support rescues and of course, prevent their own dogs from ending up in shelter/rescue situations as much as humanly possible.

It is the careless backyard breeders and puppy mills that most of us here have issues with. My neighbor for example has a sweet, little border collie type backyard bred puppy. Wonderful with their kids, very well behaved even with minimal training. She is about 3 yrs now, her brother died at 5 weeks old (they brought them home at 4 weeks....) and has a genetic immune condition that causes much pain; her skin is raw and her fur falls out, her nose/ears/paw pads are scabbed and bleeding (the mucus membranes are not functioning right) and her quality of life is poor. The condition showed itself before 1 year of age. They (owners) are doing everything they can within their finances and she is getting vet treatment and medicine etc, but they are having to consider putting her to down. Everything indicates that it was preventable in the sense that avoiding certain pairings of dogs would have prevented a dog with this condition.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Shell said:


> You are looking for a dog in a responsible manner and thinking clearly and reasonably about your needs. That kind of thinking won't get you flamed here.
> I am a big promoter of rescue sure, but that's because many many people can find a good, suitable dog for them in rescue. But I have absolutely nothing against responsible breeding and know that many responsible breeders also support rescues and of course, prevent their own dogs from ending up in shelter/rescue situations as much as humanly possible.


This, exactly. I think most of us are glad to see someone being responsible and realistic. Also, I have to say, I'm really looking forward to puppy collie or golden pictures! IMHO the fluffier the puppy, the cuter!


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

If you are looking for a golden retriever, I would say to look for a breeder that tracks COI and doesn't inbreed. Goldens have high cancer rates (approx 60% of goldens die of cancer, 20% of those from hemangiosarcoma), and many show breeders inbreed, which is linked to increased cancer risk and lower longevity -- so it's reasonable to assume there's a connection in goldens.

Learning about COI (coefficient of inbreeding) is advisable. COI's over 6.25% (many show goldens) have been demonstrated to have adverse effects (other link) in dogs. Not to mention the extensive research in human and other animal populations. K9data.com is a golden and labrador retriever pedigree database where you can check the COI of different dogs and test breedings.

That's not the whole picture about why golden retrievers are experiencing high cancer rates, but it's a risk factor. And it's one that can be avoided.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

I know of a very good Golden breeder and a good Collie breeder in NE Ohio. I am PMing you their info. Even if you think they are too far they may know someone closer to you.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Another way to find breeders that dog have website: GO TO A SHOW! I mean it, stop in at an AKC or UKC or a breed specific show. You can see what they have in person, no need to travel further then a show, and you get to know the breeder right then and there. I know at shows when I'm out there with breeders (I have rescues) all my breeder friends will talk you ear off about the breed and their dogs. 

Also, don't keep your door shut on breeders from outside your area. If you find a good breeder you like, many will drive half way to deliver a puppy to a good home. Some breeders will even allow you to spend the night or weekend at their homes if it's too far of a one day drive. There are also ways to set up transports with other breeders heading your direction for a show. We've transported dogs across states that way to get a puppy to it's new home. So don't close your door. If you are worthy of a puppy, a good breeder will find a way to get you a dog. 

One last thing, before you buy from a breeder, make sure you ask for other people who own the dogs they bred and make sure you talk to them and others that you find. Some breeders look GREAT at first, then after you get a dog, you find out later that while the dogs are great, the breeder is freaking CRAZY and makes everything you do later in life a nightmare. I've seen this a few times lately where it's a very good breeder and as I get to know them and other puppy owners from that breeder, that all of a suddenly that breeder is crazy and I've backed out of the breedings. So also check out what others say about the breeder among people in the breed. Other breeders will tell you flat out what's going on with other breeders. 

And as always ask us here what we think. We can look at contracts and what not to help you out if need be  Good luck. It will be 6 years since I started looking before I might get a dog from a good breeder. 6 years but well worth the wait for an all around, show/work/temperament sound dog.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

Good luck with your breeder search. I'm also looking into buying a collie from a breeder, and it's such a headache. Like any breed, there's just SO many health defects they have, and it's somehow up to YOU to make sure the breeder is telling the truth, and testing for them all. Genetic tests for CEA and the MDR1 gene, hip and elbow checks, thyroid checks, watching for any possible double merles, asking if they have any history of bloat in their lines. Probably a dozen others that I'm not even aware of. Why on earth can't they all be regulated? At the very least, if they belong to the breed club, they should be "safe." But obviously that's not the case. Just a big, big headache.



Darkmoon said:


> I've seen this a few times lately where it's a very good breeder and as I get to know them and other puppy owners from that breeder, that all of a suddenly that breeder is crazy and I've backed out of the breedings. So also check out what others say about the breeder among people in the breed. Other breeders will tell you flat out what's going on with other breeders.


Just wondering - what are some examples of this? Are they actually hiding bad health defects in their dogs, or is it something like...I don't even know.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Sloth said:


> Just wondering - what are some examples of this? Are they actually hiding bad health defects in their dogs, or is it something like...I don't even know.


No they are just crazy, vengeful, hateful people. They start off as wonderful people, then after a while you learn that it's all about greed. They get top notch dogs, and their ego's get too big and they start seeing $$$$ instead of anything else. Just watched a friend of mine deal with a breeder who refused to let her spay a dog that had pyro. She wanted to breed the bitch on the woman's dime and was NOT happy when it wasn't going to happen because of health concerns. I've also seen a top notch breeder that use to be wonderful become so paranoid that someone was out for her, that she ended up going ape on everyone, deleting everything she wrote and unfriending everyone she knew on FB. I've watched some breeders that stick a final clause in their contracts that you don't see until it's too late. I've dealt with breeders who only would allow you to breed to dogs they approved of (just fine) but it couldn't be from certain lines, which unless you did an import you were screwed (and she had actually just bred to a very similar line herself).

Yeah, lots of crazies out there. You don't want to find yourself with a good dog, but can't do anything with that dog because of a nutjob breeder.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi everyone and sorry to have dropped off the planet for the past week, but I have read all of your helpful posts, and a few quick responses:

begemot --- great info on K9data.com and COI

Sloth --- 
'Probably a dozen others that I'm not even aware of. Why on earth can't they all be regulated? At the very least, if they belong to the breed club, they should be "safe." But obviously that's not the case. Just a big, big headache.'
I couldn't have said it better myself. The subtext to all of my frustration here is that I know the average person wouldn't be concerned enough to invest this much time and effort into---nor frankly should they have to. It really does not need to be this hard. I just don't get why there is no regulating body, be it governmental or private, that I can go to and say ok, here is my safe breeder list. Can you imagine if doctors weren't licensed and we just have to find out about crazy ones on message boards like this one?!

Nil, Shell, and hamandeggs --- thanks for the great sense of community, I'm really glad to be here. And I can't wait until we're to the fun puppy pictures stage...trying to be patient! And oh my goodness, that backyard breeder story is exactly my fear and it's unfair to everyone---the dog, the owners, and frankly it's unfair to quality breeders because bad breeders earn the whole enterprise the contempt that so many people have for it. And who is sending puppies home at 4 weeks??!! Oh my lord. 

Follow up---I visited Hillcroft Collies, and am sharing my experience for informational purposes. Anyone who has read this thread may recall that jenz reported that they have a Wyndlair Avalance son, so I was already concerned about that, but they are close enough that I figured I'd go and see the place and talk to them. My impression is that they are certainly no puppy mill; they have have about 10 dogs, and they have indoor/outdoor runs for them and several open pen areas where 2-3 dogs would be grouped together. They had an elderly collie in the house (he also had his own indoor/outdoor run), and they bring expecting bitches into the home a few weeks before the puppies are born and bring them up there. They were an older couple who clearly seemed to be operating from a love of the breed as opposed to breeding for monetary purposes. She was quite open about the fact that she's breeding in the hopes of a good show dog; but I also respected the fact that she allows her dogs to drop out of showing when they cease to show an interest in it. The couple had a great deal to say about poor breeders, and one of the most disappointing things to hear was that they knew of at least a couple of breeders who started out well, and then, due to whatever life circumstance, turned it into a money making venture and lost credibility (very frustrating for me to hear...so, as if it isn't hard enough to find a good breeder, now I also have to look out for ones that USED to be good and have plenty of good references, but are now overbreeding!).

The things that stood out for me, and I don't know anything about this because I've got no experience with housing several dogs outdoors, were that the dogs were all hoarse from barking (and this was out in the country so there was really nothing to bark at but each other). This seemed odd to me, because I don't think of collies as exceptionally vocal. Also, they apparently had fleas, and my visit was only with a day or two of notice so they were all covered in flea powder when I got there. Again, maybe this is a normal spring thing and fleas are inevitable with that many dogs, but it seemed a bit odd to me.

I have not been to visit Takoda yet, but she has been very personable in all of my communications with her (aka not crazy), and she comes highly recommended so we'll see. I'll probably go check out her place next month.

There's also a golden show in Frederick, MD this Saturday that I'm going to try to get to (it's an hour drive, at a time when I should be packing and moving, but it seems like a great opportunity). I'm just a little concerned that I can't afford a golden anyway...I can't go over $1000 and for some reason (the kinds of health checks they get?) goldens seem to be way more expensive even for pet quality. 

Thanks all!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Sounds like they may have debarked those collies, but then again maybe not. They may have nosey neighbors that have turned them in in the past for barking dogs, even if they are out in the country. Did you ask them about the son of wyndlair avalanche and their stance on that kind of breeding?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Usually if they sound hoarse, they have been de-barked. So then you have to decide if you want to support that. . .ugh, it is complicated, isn't it?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

sparklebacon said:


> Option B: Breeds dogs for show, openly admits that her litters are geared toward producing a show dog that she can keep and the others are sold as pets. Repeatedly referenced appearances (speaking negatively of someone else breeding primarily for temperament "so I asked why not breed for the total package---including looks?"). Personally, I do not care about looks, I care about health and temperament. However, she was referred to me by a breed club and does not appear to be running anything akin to a puppy mill and she does offer the typical health checks etc as well.
> 
> Which would you choose?


Does breeder B do health tests? Pay attention to the results? If so, she's not breeding for looks alone.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

De-barked??? What the heck is that??!! I'm sure I don't want to know. Honestly, I couldn't even see a neighbor, and the plot of land behind them was undeveloped, so there'd be no one to annoy except...them.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Debarking sounds worse than it really is. Its more like bark softening the dogs can still bark but its a softer bark. It should only be used as a last resort, and really which is worse softening the bark of a dog or having to give the dog up to a shelter because they dog won't stop barking even after every other option has not worked. Some dogs bark just to bark, some dogs just like hearing themselves.

My friend debarks her malinois, as her neighbors have turned her in before for stupid stuff that wasn't even happening on her property. She has very nosy neighbors.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

It's a surgery that involves removing some part of the vocal cords. 

I disagree that dogs that sound hoarse have necessarily been debarked. One of my in-laws has a setter that lives outside and barks his fool head off all the time. He sounds hoarse, but he has certainly not been debarked.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I would be semi-OK with it if it was used as a last resort with problem barkers (it's not horribly painful or invasive. Much less horrible than, say, de-clawing a cat). But if they routinely de-bark all their dogs I would not be able to support that breeder. That just shows a certain mindset I wouldn't want to condone.

I agree that a dog sounding hoarse doesn't mean he's been de-barked. But if ALL the dogs sounded like that, and considering how common de-barking is among Collie breeders, chances are pretty high.


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I would be semi-OK with it if it was used as a last resort with problem barkers (it's not horribly painful or invasive. Much less horrible than, say, de-clawing a cat). But if they routinely de-bark all their dogs I would not be able to support that breeder. That just shows a certain mindset I wouldn't want to condone.
> 
> I agree that a dog sounding hoarse doesn't mean he's been de-barked. But if ALL the dogs sounded like that, and considering how common de-barking is among Collie breeders, chances are pretty high.


I agree with this and I wouldn't support a breeder that kept a load of debarked dogs. I mean, if you can't handle barking then maybe this isn't the hobby for you. Just sayin'.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Does breeder B do health tests? Pay attention to the results? If so, she's not breeding for looks alone.


Eye checks on their dogs are mentioned on Hillcroft's site. I can't find their dogs on OFA, so they might or might not check more. They don't utilise OFA if they do. - http://www.offa.org/search.html?btnSearch=Advanced+Search

I can't find Takoda on OFA either.

For those who know is this a Collie thing --- not utilising OFA? I thought HD could be a problem in Collies but maybe it isn't a recommended test in the breed.

Sparklebacon you mentioned that you didn't think Collies were exceptionally vocal - my experience is that many are, some moreso than others of course. Think you should know that if you are considering the breed.

SOB


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Moxie said:


> I agree with this and I wouldn't support a breeder that kept a load of debarked dogs. I mean, if you can't handle barking then maybe this isn't the hobby for you. Just sayin'.


I personally agree. I think maybe there are a few dogs that due to the owner's situation need to go through this but... I think far less then actually do. I am in the "don't get a barky type dog, if you don't want barking" boat. There are many breeds that are less vocal and maybe those should be chose instead of debarking a dog that is hardwired to bark.

Here are a few other views about this surgery and something to think about when chosing a breeder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ADbMoX4aw&feature=related

though I think sometime people are a bit dramatic about their protest against such things, I think that in many cases, it isn't neccessary. 

It is also something to think long and hard about in chosing which breed is right for you.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> Eye checks on their dogs are mentioned on Hillcroft's site. I can't find their dogs on OFA, so they might or might not check more. They don't utilise OFA if they do. - http://www.offa.org/search.html?btnSearch=Advanced+Search
> 
> I can't find Takoda on OFA either.
> 
> ...


My understanding is that hip dysplasia is not that common in Collies. Some breeders test for it and some don't. Unfortunately, the Collie Health Foundation website is down right now because they're redoing it. It's a very good resource (when it's up). Here's something I did find in a quick search about collie hips: http://www.ehow.com/facts_5209421_do-collies-ever-hip-problems_.html


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks Rowdy. I was thinking that when I was coming up empty on the OFA searches . . . . so many breeders will not be getting hips checked as this is a low risk breed. 

SOB


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Don't the eye results get posted on the OFA website, too? (I know, Orthopedic Foundation. . .) Or is that only if their hips and elbows are done, too?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Debarking is common in shelties and collies as they can be very vocal dogs. A lot of breeders routinely debark their shelties and collies. 

One point about the debarking that you might want to keep in mind (that I don't see mentioned) is that it might be a sign that those lines tend to produce excessively barky dogs. Yes, collies and shelties in general bark a lot but some are neurotic barkers, which isn't good. It could be a sign that a breeder is not putting much attention to how barky their dogs are because after all, they're just going to debark. 

My last sheltie's breeder debarked most of her dogs (maybe all that she kept). He was very barky even compared to my other two shelties. Could be a coincidence, I suppose, but all those dogs were the type that barked constantly when you riled them up.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Don't the eye results get posted on the OFA website, too? (I know, Orthopedic Foundation. . .) Or is that only if their hips and elbows are done, too?


Yes OFA does list CERF results as well as BAER I believe.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Debarking is common in shelties and collies as they can be very vocal dogs. A lot of breeders routinely debark their shelties and collies.
> 
> One point about the debarking that you might want to keep in mind (that I don't see mentioned) is that it might be a sign that those lines tend to produce excessively barky dogs. Yes, collies and shelties in general bark a lot but some are neurotic barkers, which isn't good. It could be a sign that a breeder is not putting much attention to how barky their dogs are because after all, they're just going to debark.
> 
> My last sheltie's breeder debarked most of her dogs (maybe all that she kept). He was very barky even compared to my other two shelties. Could be a coincidence, I suppose, but all those dogs were the type that barked constantly when you riled them up.


I think some of it may be the breeder's living situation. My breeder lives in a fairly populated area. A number of her dogs are debarked because of trouble with some close neighbors. But that's a reflection more of the neighbors than the dogs. Neither of my guys are big barkers and only a few of her dogs (and I've met a bunch of them) are really barky.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

If anyone is interested, this is slightly OT, but here are the OFA hip dysplasia statistics by breed:

http://www.offa.org/stats_hip.html

I'm posting the URL because the list was too long to include in this note.


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Rowdy said:


> I think some of it may be the breeder's living situation. My breeder lives in a fairly populated area. A number of her dogs are debarked because of trouble with some close neighbors. But that's a reflection more of the neighbors than the dogs.


Well...I think that's also a reflection of the choices the breeders are making to move ahead with their hobby in spite of not having the appropriate living situation for it---which to my mind is no different than if I were to go ahead and get an energetic dog when I lived in a one bedroom apartment. We all have to look at our living situations and decide what sort of pet (and what number of pets) would be good and fair to everyone involved. Heck, who here doesn't want more dogs than we can reasonably accommodate


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

To follow up, I think I'm going with Takoda Collies! They were a Collie Club of America referral, the contract looks like what I would expect, and no one here came up with anything bad to say about them. They have a couple of 16-week-old girls right now...I'm a little sad to have missed the fluffy 8-15 weeks stage, but we're just so excited to be looking forward to a puppy that we don't care.

Question for you collie owners---am I correct that mild CRC is acceptable in a dog that will not be bred? It appears as though it's a common diagnosis that doesn't affect the dog's vision.

My next post I'll be asking lots of puppy prep questions---is the Furminator any good? What about food (breeder says Right now we are feeding Purina Puppy Chow incase you haven't heard about all the recalls going on right now - UGGG!), I'm definitely not up on dog food recalls!

Thanks for your support, everyone!


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I can't, unfortunately, answer your collie-specific questions. But:



> What about food (breeder says Right now we are feeding Purina Puppy Chow incase you haven't heard about all the recalls going on right now - UGGG!), I'm definitely not up on dog food recalls!


Purina Puppy Chow is not a very good food, even without the recall issues.
I recommend going to www.dogfoodadvisor.com or www.dogfoodanalysis.com to learn a little about dog food. Some brands I like to recommend to people are Earthborn, Orijen, Acana, Fromm, and Taste of the Wild (TotW is under recall currently, though); but you may find something listed on those sites with good ingredients that's just as good or better and available to you. 

If you do choose to switch from Puppy Chow, I would wait at least a few weeks until your pup settles into it's new home. Also, it's advisable to change foods gradually, mixing increasing increments of the new food into the old food each feeding for 1-2 weeks until the pup is eating a diet entirely the new food.

=) Good luck with the pup! I bet you're excited!


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Congrats! Are you getting a smoothie or a rough? The Furminator will work very well with the smooths, but not with the roughs. The longer fur will tangle in the brush and pull. If you're getting a rough, get a good pin brush (the Collie Health Foundation sells an excellent one with the money going to a good cause) and a slicker brush.

By CRC do you mean Collie Eye Anomaly? Many collies have that. It is a stable condition that won't progress and does not affect their vision.

Definitely have your dog tested for the MDR1 gene. (Unless you know the parents are normal/normal) If you haven't heard of this, it's a genetic mutation that affects their ability to metabolise a number of medications, Ivermectin being the most important one. It's very common in collies and the white footed herding breeds. The test is a buccal swab that you do and mail in to the Washington State Veterinary school. Being MDR1 mutant/mutant does NOT make any difference in your dog's life except for not being able to take Ivermectin. Both of my guys are mu/mu. That just means we give Interceptor when we have to give heartworm prophylaxis. Here's the website for more info: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/depts-VCPL/

Most important: POST LOTS OF PICTURES! 

Enjoy your new puppy!


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## sparklebacon (Apr 3, 2012)

Yep, Choroidal Hypoplasia (CH or CRC), basically CEA. Good, that's what I was thinking. Yeah, I just found out about Immodium (which my vet a dozen years ago had me giving to my collie puppy for all sorts of mysterious bowel ailments that disappeared when we moved away). Good to know! Yes, rough coat, and I was concerned the Furminator might be inappropriate for the outer coat.

Thanks for the dog food link, I'd definitely prefer something more nutritious than Purina. Having said that, it's a bit like the NPR article recently about how bagged, mass produced lettuce might be safer than the stuff you feel good about at the farmers market because big companies have more to lose if they aren't implementing strict food safety standards. 

Can't wait to have pics to share!!! Now if I can just talk my daughter out of naming her the cliche "Lassie"...before she wanted to name her Ms Frizzle, lol.


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## mcbaudean (Sep 30, 2012)

Hi, I know I am VERY late to the is post about Option A and B, but I am here to defend Blessed Acres Farm. She is NOT a puppy mill. We got our Sable collie from her nearly 5 years ago, who has a wonderful disposition and is very healthy. We got a tri male puppy today who is such a gem! She lives in the mountains of VA and breeding dogs is their livelihood. They have an incredibly tiny home and they have pens for the dogs outside. The puppies are in a climate controlled shed-like building. My husband was there today to pick up our tri male and he said 3 day old puppies were in the house. They have multiple males and females which is why they can have so many litters in a year. Laura Collins is extremely knowledgable and helpful. They feed their dogs Taste of the Wild High Prairie food, which isn't cheap! Our tri male is 13 weeks and he was recently living in the home with them and she was working on house training with him. They are also on the correct form of heartworm preventative (no ivermectin) and flea and tic preventative. I think it's such a shame that so many of you are trashing her, without having met her or any of her dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Just realized how old this post was and deleted. 

This shouldn't be unburied - sorry.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> LOL, the fact she used this person (showmill?) as an example says a lot. "Oh, yes, I really care about my dogs and I produce the best Collies evar, but I can't be bothered to even go to my own kennels and see how they're actually being raised". Yup, there's a great breeder .


Showmill? AR speak gets more interesting all the time. If you don't know these people, you can only guess. People can have multiple breeds and a lot of dogs without substandard practices (though it might make me look closer at them) But I'd never ASSume they are substandard breeders without more than that - and call people I don't know, or know about - derrogatory names. And you misread - the Blessed Acres woman said that SHE was going by what she'd been told, not having been to the other breeder's kennel. Not that the breeder had never been in her own kennel.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jenz said:


> I'm glad you found out before buying your puppy!
> 
> Googling the new links you posted... I (personally) would shy away from the Hllcroft breeder too, just because she seems to be promoting a Wyndlair Avalance son (and if you google Wyndlair Avalanche on this board or on the internet, you'll see he is a huge controversy in the dog world). But that's because I would, personally, never buy from a breeder who is okay with breeding a blind/deaf double merle like that. Or having one of his pups for my lines, either.
> Jen


You can object to the breeding on moral/ethical grounds. But double merle is not something that's going to pass on any health problems IF the dog is bred to non-merles only. I have heard that it is also a fairy common practice in Shelties.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

mcbaudean said:


> Hi, I know I am VERY late to the is post about Option A and B, but I am here to defend Blessed Acres Farm. She is NOT a puppy mill. We got our Sable collie from her nearly 5 years ago, who has a wonderful disposition and is very healthy. We got a tri male puppy today who is such a gem! She lives in the mountains of VA and breeding dogs is their livelihood. They have an incredibly tiny home and they have pens for the dogs outside. The puppies are in a climate controlled shed-like building. My husband was there today to pick up our tri male and he said 3 day old puppies were in the house. They have multiple males and females which is why they can have so many litters in a year. Laura Collins is extremely knowledgable and helpful. They feed their dogs Taste of the Wild High Prairie food, which isn't cheap! Our tri male is 13 weeks and he was recently living in the home with them and she was working on house training with him. They are also on the correct form of heartworm preventative (no ivermectin) and flea and tic preventative. I think it's such a shame that so many of you are trashing her, without having met her or any of her dogs.


Food had nothing to do with a responsible breeder. By the way TOTW is one of the cheapest quality foods. 

Does she health test? If not that basically ruled her out in my mind.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Don't the eye results get posted on the OFA website, too? (I know, Orthopedic Foundation. . .) Or is that only if their hips and elbows are done, too?


They get on the OFA website if people send them in. Unlike hips and elbows, the OFA tells you nothing useful about the dog's eye status. OFA does not evaluate eyes. The original CERF form does. Not being a major breeder, I never sent eyes in - but did provide new puppy owners with copies of the originals on both parents, and the puppy's first eye exam (at 7 weeks) which is where ever test and result is lined out.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

with working/herding breeds blue ribbons best of breed/show titles are great & all... but i want to see if the dog has drive to & will work real stock in a real situation... or i will look elsewhere for a breeder that does, with my breed... the last thing i want is to support a breeder who breeds dogs who dont have drive, what good is a sound bodied dog if it cant or wont perform its original form of function IMHO?

what breed is this? just curious.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> with working/herding breeds blue ribbons best of breed/show titles are great & all... but i want to see if the dog has drive to & will work real stock in a real situation... or i will look elsewhere for a breeder that does, with my breed... the last thing i want is to support a breeder who breeds dogs who dont have drive, what good is a sound bodied dog if it cant or wont perform its original form of function IMHO?
> 
> what breed is this? just curious.


Of course, this assumes that the person has a job for the dog to do. Lower drive animals can make excellent pets. I agree that when I am looking for a dog, I'm looking for bred-to-work, but then I'm asking more than a lot of people are.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Old thread rehash.


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