# Standard Schnauzer vs. Irish Terrier



## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Hi all,

I've been lurking on these forums for a while now and I have to say that this is the best and most comprehensive forum out there. Thank you for all the interesting and valuable information. 

Now that I am about to pull the trigger on a dog purchase I am in between the two breeds, Standard Schnauzer and Irish Terrier.

I was finally able to get an agreement from the wife do get a dog, the kids wanted one for the longest time now. 

To give you the background for a little help with my decision...

First time dog owners.
Wife is allergic to a lot of things, but can tolerate my parent's Maltese. Other dogs for short periods as well.
Kids are 10 and 5.
We own a house and do have a fenced yard.
I have been watching a lot of Dog Whisperer and feel pretty confident I can deal with dogs the right way.
I do not have illusions that kids will be responsible enough to look after the dog and do plan to have before work morning walks and evening walks with the dog myself, probably 30 to 45 minutes each day.
During the day my wife has a flexible schedule and kids are back from school by 3pm, to take the dog out.
If I missed any information needed to make my decision please let me know.

I originally wanted a large dog, and since I have to get a hypoalleregenic one my choices were Bouvier des Flanders or Labradoodle, a Giant Schnauzer was omited due to being a much more serious dog. 

But something didn't click right until I talked myself down to a medium sized dog. I realized that for a large dog I'd need, at least, to get bigger cars for myself and my wife. 

Hence the two choices, Standard Schnauzer vs. Irish Terrier. I am leaning more towards the Schnauzer and my wife towards the Irish, kids don't know that I was able to convince the wife to get the dog yet.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Do you want a puppy? If you don't have your heart set on one, here are the club rescues for both those breeds:

http://www.itca.info/itcarescue.htm
http://www.standardschnauzer.org/rescue.html

Sometimes breeders have older dogs available as well, so that's worth a look. There are a lot of benefits with an older dog - not even a senior, just a dog that's 2-3 years old - not the least of which is you know what you're getting. A lot of times they'll be housebroken already, which is a huge relief!

I think either of these breeds would be a good fit. Don't worry about the physical size of the dog, both Schnauzers and Terriers are plenty of dog for the package they come in. One thing to keep in mind is that not everyone with allergies reacts the same; it might be a good idea to have your wife spend sometime with both breeds of dogs and see if there is a difference in reaction.

Also, another thing to keep in mind is that the Dog Whisperer isn't really a good resource for most dog owners. Not only is he not a trainer (ie, just because your dog "respects you" doesn't mean he'll come when you call), the dogs he works with are not most dogs. He also relies a lot on his personal magnetism with dogs, which most owners can't replicate.

Good luck picking out your dog! You're being very realistic about the kids' involvement with the dog, but I (and a lot of other people here) grew up with dogs and it's just the best thing.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Do you want a puppy?


 I do want a puppy, I've been debating this for a while and I want the "total experience".



> One thing to keep in mind is that not everyone with allergies reacts the same; it might be a good idea to have your wife spend sometime with both breeds of dogs and see if there is a difference in reaction.


 I understand this part, but the only way we can spend time with either breed is by visiting a breeder, which I have not picked yet.



> Also, another thing to keep in mind is that the Dog Whisperer isn't really a good resource for most dog owners


 I understand what you mean, but I can find any and all info on how to train a dog on the web, what I see as a more important part is understanding of dogs and how their mind works.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Grish said:


> I do want a puppy, I've been debating this for a while and I want the "total experience".


Ok. Have you read about how to find a responsible breeder? There are some stickies in this forum on the topic. Also the breed clubs are a good place to get information.



Grish said:


> I understand this part, but the only way we can spend time with either breed is by visiting a breeder, which I have not picked yet.


Why not visit both? A dog is a 10-15 year investment, there's no reason you can't shop around like you would for a car. If you go here -> http://www.akc.org/events/search/ <- you can find AKC shows in your area, that's usually a good place to meet dogs and talk to breeders (the wife may need to stay home, they're very doggy events. I can't imagine it's fun for allergy sufferers). I do suggest you meet these dogs in person, I think it's really the best way to get a feel for the temperament and personality. 



Grish said:


> I understand what you mean, but I can find any and all info on how to train a dog on the web, what I see as a more important part is understanding of dogs and how their mind works.


There are better theories of dog brains, in my opinion. I won't go into more detail unless you want me too, it's a subject I'm rather passionate about and it isn't really the point in this thread.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Have you read about how to find a responsible breeder


 Oh yeah, I've been reading forever now. 



> Why not visit both? A dog is a 10-15 year investment, there's no reason you can't shop around like you would for a car.


 Funny you should mention cars... I bought my last three cars after reading numerous reviews and articles with barely a 10 minute test drive, have not been disappointed yet. On a more serious note, my cousin has an Irish Terrier and my wife seemed fine with the dog, the Standard Schnauzer we'd go to a breeder or two. Dog show is out of the question as my wife is not a dog person, even if we discount her allergies, and it'll be too overwhelming for her.



> There are better theories of dog brains....


 I'm sure there are as many theories as there are "experts on dog psychology" out there, but you are right, it's not the point of my inquiry.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Then... I dunno, flip a coin? I'm out of help


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Then... I dunno, flip a coin? I'm out of help


I would if I could...  Thanks for your input.

I'm trying to find out a little more details about both breeds from people with experience, not only reviews of the breeds in general.


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## Jax (Feb 14, 2010)

Since this has, at least in part, contingencies with allergies, PLEASE get in touch with some breeders or rescues for both of these dogs and explain your situation with the allergies, and ask if you can spend some time around the dogs. 

Even though both of these are "low allergen" dogs, most people with dog allergies are still allergic to the dog's saliva and wastes, which can dry in their hair and cause reactions. (There are NO true hypoallergenic dogs). This doesn't sound like a big deal, but in some people it's worse than just the fur/skin shedding that dogs do. Most people with allergies tolerate some breeds better than others, even amongst low-shed or low-allergen breeds. 

You need to spend several hours in the environment where the dog has been before you know if you have a reaction to it - often repeatedly. Doing so beforehand by hanging out with some of them would be much better than getting one home and realizing a week later that it's making you (or your wife in this case) miserable. 

If it turns out that one of these dogs is better on her health, that would be the obvious choice to go with


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

neither.

I own a Standard Schnauzer. I think that they, and the Irish Terrier are a really bad choice for a person who has only 30-45 min a day to train them, no dog owning experience at all, thinks that Ceasar Milan and the Web has all the answers for dog training. It's just a big fat train wreck a coming. Choo choo.

If your wife isn't allergic to a Maltese I'd get the Maltese. Seriously. Then after a few years of dog ownership and sucessful dog obedience training do your research very well and re-consider the SS or the IT. 

If you used Ceaser Milan's methods on my dog she'd either bite you or shut down completely and do everything in her power to avoid you. Standard Schnauzers are smart, tough and independent. They suffer fools lightly and do not tolerate unfair punishment. (I'd classify CM's methods as unfair punishment and negative reinforcement) They do well with Positive reinforcement training. They love to be with their people, but not glued to their sides. They have a high prey drive and were breed for centuries to kill vermin. If I had her in a fenced in yard, I would not be surprised if she killed my neighbors cat. I would never leave her alone in a fenced in yard. She would be a terrible dog for a first time dog owner. You would be miserable with my dog.

Don't get a high drive, high energy dog as a first time dog. Get a mellow little love muffin.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Jax said:


> Since this has, at least in part, contingencies with allergies, PLEASE get in touch with some breeders or rescues for both of these dogs and explain your situation with the allergies, and ask if you can spend some time around the dogs.


I am planning on doing that, as much as I can anyway.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> neither.


 Interesting... what would you suggest in a medium size dog which is relatively hypoallergenic.



> ...a person who has only 30-45 min a day to train them...


 I mentioned that I have 30-45 TWICE a day for a walk myself in addition for a walk during the day by my kids. My weekends are open for spending time with kids and the dog as well.



> ...thinks that Ceasar Milan and the Web has all the answers for dog training....


 I don't think Cesar has all the answers but I do know that I can find ANY and ALL information needed on the web.



> If your wife isn't allergic to a Maltese I'd get the Maltese.


 Out of the question as I do want a real dog not a toy. Seriously.



> If you used Ceaser Milan's methods on my dog she'd either bite you or shut down completely and do everything in her power to avoid you.


 I don't really understand what you mean by "Cesar Milan Method". Every single one of his cases is approached on individual dog basis and by knowing the dog's view of life.



> I would never leave her alone in a fenced in yard.


 I am not planning to leave the dog alone in the yard, but when we are in the yard the dog will be able to roam within the fence.



> She would be a terrible dog for a first time dog owner. You would be miserable with my dog. Don't get a high drive, high energy dog as a first time dog. Get a mellow little love muffin.


 This one is true and I do see your point here, I did read that the Standard Schnauzer needs a firm owner and I think I can handle the challenge. I do not even consider "a mellow little love muffin" a true dog, but just a toy.


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## EarthMonkey (Nov 14, 2009)

I am a first time dog owner myself and one thing I found difficult is one thing you are mentioning. I too, when a puppy arrived unforeseen at my house one night and became ours, looked to the plethora of information on the internet. I found all sorts of info and started putting it to use. Unfortunately, the problem is with my lack of previous experience, it was hard to define what would be appropriate for our puppy and what would not. Each web site speaks of their choice as the right one. The various web sites can be conflicting to each other. I would advise since you have the opportunity to do the research now investigate thoroughly before getting the puppy and talk to humans (who are qualified trainers at a place such as the SPCA) in person before deciding on any of the methods listed on the internet.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I mean this in the best possible sense...

But neither. Both are an A WHOLE LOT of dog for first time owners. I am not saying your can't do it. But if you do, you better be committed to it. 

You mentioned some larger breeds. Size does not have really anything to do with how difficult a dog is to handle. And both the breeds you mentioned ain't easy. They are both very determined, tenacious, and strong willed. 
Neither would find its way onto a list for first timers.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> Interesting... what would you suggest in a medium size dog which is relatively hypoallergenic.


Poodles are the "standard" answer (they are medium sized and consider to be hypoallergenic more than most).

Irish Water Sapniel's are consider more hypoallergenic.

I think both are considered on the independent side for temperament (I take that to mean they like to do their own thing more so then join in with what you're doing).

Here's another list that has dog breeds I never heard of (Dandie Dinmont Terrier...what the heck? Cute looking though) and actually lists the Coton (my dog's breed).

http://www.dogguide.net/dog-breeds-for-allergies.php


Some of them aren't medium, though. All of the Bichon family (Maltese, Coton, Havenese, and the Bichon Frise of course) listed dogs are toy to small sized (they still can be active and probably a challenge in some situations). I think the largest, at least on that list, is like 12 or so lbs.


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## Jax (Feb 14, 2010)

I'm not going to address anything about your ability to raise a dog or not or how to handle them. I'm sure tons of people will give you feedback one way or the other about what to do, who to read, etc etc.

Answering your specific question about what kind of breed:

Have you considered a standard poodle? People see "poodle" and get all weirded out and repelled, but there is a world of difference between a standard and a toy. 

Standards are considered "medium" or "large" dogs, depending on their breeding. They can be expected to mature between 40 and 75 pounds. 

Poodles do not HAVE to look froofy and silly. If you keep them in a short utility clip they look quite respectable.

They are highly intelligent and typically easy to train, as long as you are consistent and firm with them - WITHOUT being mean and snappy. They are great with children (which you have) and typically one of the dogs people with allergies have the LEAST problems with (hence the onslaught of "doodle" breeds trying to replicate the poodle quality there). 

Standard poodles are typically MUCH lower energy and less excitable than toy breeds of the same. They tend to be pretty laid back in the house, but they DO need real exercise a couple times a day. Walks are sufficient in most cases, but most of them enjoy chasing balls and retrieving as well. 

The only thing to be aware of is that their temperament CAN be high strung and they can get very yippy and snappy. A lot of this depends on breeding, so it's important to pick a reputable breeder who is conscous of breading for temperament as well as health, if you choose to get your animal from a breeder and not a rescue. Usually rescues also provide some sort of profiling for personality, at least to the extent that they know, as they are interested in making good matches to the family getting the dog.

If nothing else, you could try looking them up. They are less "serious" dogs than a lot of the terrier/schnauzer type dogs, without being super silly (see labradors).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Grish said:


> Out of the question as I do want a real dog not a toy. Seriously.


I'm not going to attempt to talk you into a little white fluffball or anything, but what do you consider a "real dog?" Are you opposed to all smaller dogs, or just fluffy white ones? (And by the way, my papillon -- one of the top 10 intelligent and trainable dog breeds with tons of energy and an aversion to being carried like a baby or stuffed into a purse -- may be toy _sized_, but she is no toy.) If you'd be willing to consider smaller dogs (15-30 lbs or so), you have a few more choices in the less allergenic realm -- the Basenji, for example, or the Australian, Cairn, Norwich or Soft-Coated Wheaten terriers (the latter is actually medium-sized at 30-45lbs). None of these are toy-sized dogs, and they should all look "real dog" enough for you. 

You could also consider adopting a Labradoodle or a Goldendoodle, although these are mutts and are not guaranteed hypoallergenic, despite what many people think. You would need to have your wife spend some time with the specific pup you wanted to take home to see if she had a reaction. If you look around, you could probably find one in a rescue or shelter. I know this is a hot topic around here, but some "doodle" breeders actually do perform health checks on each parent, so if you really wanted a pup and couldn't find one in a shelter or rescue, you might look into one of those. Avoid anyone who doesn't health test at all costs, of course!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Neither the Standard Schnauzer nor the Irish Terrier are ideal breeds for the 1st timer. And I say that as a huge fan of both breeds. Neither breed is especially forgiving of noob mistakes. Between the two, the Irish is about as bad a choice as you can come up with.

Individual temperaments will vary a great deal, but breed generalizations are useful guides. Both breeds will require a lot of attention to proper socialization and training. Firmness is all well and good (and necessary), but firmness by itself won't get it done. I'm not really a member of the Cesar haters club, but what works for him is difficult to replicate for the new puppy owner. He has the ability to read a dog that you don't just pick up in a few weeks. His timing is pretty darned good, as well. These are skills that take years to develop.

If you are the ambitious type, and feel that you are up for a challenge, get a well bred Lab. They are more than enough trouble for anyone. A good Lab will let you fix your mistakes. You can train them wrong and retrain them almost indefinitely. A Lab pup is not the ideal starter kit, but less likely to grow up to be Public Enemy #1 than an Irish Terrier.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> Out of the question as I do want a real dog not a toy. Seriously.


Maybe it's just rubbing me the wrong way but toy dogs are most definitely 'real' dogs. You don't have to get one but I HATE it when people say they're not 'real dogs'. I hear it all the time and it drives me insane. I think it's quite rude, honestly.

Okay had to get that off my chest.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

EarthMonkey said:


> ...it was hard to define what would be appropriate for our puppy and what would not. Each web site speaks of their choice as the right one...


 LOL... That's the general problem with the internet... rarely do you find a website that is real helpful.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> ...Both are an A WHOLE LOT of dog for first time owners. I am not saying your can't do it. But if you do, you better be committed to it...


 I am probably as stubborn as these two dogs' descriptions put together. I do plan to follow through completely. 



> You mentioned some larger breeds. Size does not have really anything to do with how difficult a dog is to handle.


 An ideal dog for me, based solely on breed standard descriptions and pictures, would probably be Bouvier des Flanders. But I'd have to make too many changes to accomodate a large dog. 



> Neither would find its way onto a list for first timers.


 First time dog owners suggestions do not take into account an individual, but generalize a great deal, just as dog breed general standards. I did go through these "first timer recommendations" lists and cannot find a single dog that I like.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

KBLover said:


> Poodles are the "standard" answer (they are medium sized and consider to be hypoallergenic more than most).
> 
> Irish Water Sapniel's are consider more hypoallergenic.


 For some reason I do not like poodles, too playful and the narrow heads don't attract me. Irish Water Spaniel and Portugese Water Dog are just variations of a poodle...


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Personally I would go wit the Irish.. 

If you've never owned a dog before I would also research local training classes, sit in on a couple, and choose one to go to.

You only get one shot at a puppy, and mistakes can last 10+ years.

Not to mention group classes are a also a place your pup gets some socialization with other people and dogs etc.

Either of those dogs if trained well and brought up right can be awesome dogs to have around, and if you slack or screw it up can be total pains in the butt.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Honestly id go with a standard poodle. Much easier to handle then the SS or IT. They are a good sized hunting breed. very trainable, great with people of all ages, dogs, ect



Laurelin said:


> Maybe it's just rubbing me the wrong way but toy dogs are most definitely 'real' dogs. You don't have to get one but I HATE it when people say they're not 'real dogs'. I hear it all the time and it drives me insane. I think it's quite rude, honestly.
> 
> Okay had to get that off my chest.


I agree. drives me nuts. I don't own a toy breed right now. but adore min. poodles. and if I keep hearing they are not a real dog. I'm gonna have to smack some one (aka my BF lol)

I consider myself a pretty decent dog owner, have had dogs for almost 25 years. And not even I would feel like I have a sturdy enough training schedule/hand to raise a decent terrier. to much dog for most people.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Jax said:


> Have you considered a standard poodle? People see "poodle" and get all weirded out and repelled, but there is a world of difference between a standard and a toy.
> 
> Standards are considered "medium" or "large" dogs, depending on their breeding. They can be expected to mature between 40 and 75 pounds...


I did look at the poodles, but no I did not consider them as a dog for my family. I can see what you are saying about the standard not being as playful as the smaller variety. I do not like the look of their narror heads. The standard poodle would be a couple of inches larger than either the Irish or the Schnauzer, more Airedale Terrier size, which gets back to large vs. medium dog, with a medium for me.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> ...but what do you consider a "real dog?"


 The type of dog I won't be affraid to break... 



> Are you opposed to all smaller dogs, or just fluffy white ones?


 Pretty much all smaller dogs, I do like some of them, but just do not see them for myself.



> You could also consider adopting a Labradoodle or a Goldendoodle


 I did consider a Labradoodle for some time, but now I decided on a medium rather than a large dog.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Neither breed is especially forgiving of noob mistakes.


 This is an interesting point I have not heard before. Can you give me an example or two?



> If you are the ambitious type, and feel that you are up for a challenge, get a well bred Lab.


 Lab is out of the question for two reasons, large and sheds.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Maybe it's just rubbing me the wrong way but toy dogs are most definitely 'real' dogs. You don't have to get one but I HATE it when people say they're not 'real dogs'. I hear it all the time and it drives me insane. I think it's quite rude, honestly.


 I didn't mean to offend... but handling a dog and being affraid of breaking it constitues a toy, not a real dog for me.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

TxRider said:


> Either of those dogs if trained well and brought up right can be awesome dogs to have around, and if you slack or screw it up can be total pains in the butt.


 I was thinking along the same lines and I am prepared to dedicate time to train a dog the right way right away.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Tankstar said:


> ...I don't own a toy breed right now. but adore min. poodles....


 I don't mind other people having toy breeds either.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

NRB said:


> neither.
> 
> I own a Standard Schnauzer. I think that they, and the Irish Terrier are a really bad choice for a person who has only 30-45 min a day to train them, no dog owning experience at all, Don't get a high drive, high energy dog as a first time dog.


YES! 



Jax said:


> Since this has, at least in part, contingencies with allergies, PLEASE get in touch with some breeders or rescues for both of these dogs and explain your situation with the allergies, and ask if you can spend some time around the dogs.
> 
> Even though both of these are "low allergen" dogs, most people with dog allergies are still allergic to the dog's saliva and wastes, which can dry in their hair and cause reactions. (There are NO true hypoallergenic dogs). This doesn't sound like a big deal, but in some people it's worse than just the fur/skin shedding that dogs do. Most people with allergies tolerate some breeds better than others, even amongst low-shed or low-allergen breeds.
> 
> ...


YES, again!

I'll refrain from commenting on the Doodle "breeds", as I'm simply not a fan. 

As far as breeds you've mentioned are concerned, IMO, a carefully chosen Bouvier (assuming the allergy issue is addressed) would be a far easier and safer bet, and a better family dog than either an Irish or Standard Schnauzer (my apologies to the Irish and Schnauzer folks out there).

Another breed you might want to look at is a Spinone Italiano; they are bigger than your terriers but are, generally speaking, sweet, healthy and easy going family dogs.

Don't be put off by the size. As you raise your puppy, you'll be surprised to realize that he/she will not seem all that large.
Best of luck!


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Grish, seriously listen to Marsh Muppet and Johnny Bandit. They have loads more experience than me. I've owned and trained 3 dogs in my life. So I consider myself still the learner. 

Listen; you can NOT learn how to train your dog on the internet. You have to learn from a trainer in person, in real time. No matter what the breed. 

Here is where I see you getting into deep trouble with either breed. When you say "I've never had a dog before" and "I can be firm". Those two sentences put together equal total disaster with either breed you have chosen. You have to be Firm and FAIR. Neither breed will tolerate unfair handling. They will shut down or fight back. 

You can not be firm and fair if you have no experience training dogs, no experience reading their body language, no real understanding of what it is to be fair with the dog. So your Firmness will be given at the wrong time, for the wrong reason, and will cause alot of damage. You could turn the dogs into fear biters. 

I'm going to try to make an example of this in another realm, Parenting. As a parent you are firm but fair right? My daughter is 3yo and hasn't gotten the hang of the potty quite yet. (A bit old but she is adopted, spent 15 months of her life in an orphanage where she was neglected) Would it be fair of me to punish her for not using the potty? Would it be fair for me to lock her in the bathroom until she finally has a bowl movement in the potty? No. Either practices would be considered UnFair. But They could also be considered FIRM. Right? In the 2 examples above I would be a firm parent but I would also be unfair. 

Do you understand where being Firm and Ignorant could get you into trouble with a dog such as a SS or IT? 

Seriously get an easier dog, get a first time dog owner dog, leanr how to be a Fair dog owner, then get the more challenging breed.

BEST ADVICE YET: call up the breed rescue groups, ask them WHY the dogs are surrendered. You will find that many of them came from First time Dog Owners who had no experience, thought that they could be firm, but got overwhelmed. You will find dogs that barked non stop and the owners got rid of it. You might find fear biters and dogs not suitable for homes with young children (Typically considered any under the age of 10)


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

prntmkr said:


> As far as breeds you've mentioned are concerned, IMO, a carefully chosen Bouvier (assuming the allergy issue is addressed) would be a far easier and safer bet, and a better family dog than either an Irish or Standard Schnauzer (my apologies to the Irish and Schnauzer folks out there).


 Yes, a Bouvier would fit my preferences to the dot if only it was smaller.  Judging by the breed standard they can go to 28 inches while both Schnauzer and Irish only go to 20 inches. In order for me to accomodate a large dog I would have to replace my current cars with larger ones.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

prntmkr said:


> As far as breeds you've mentioned are concerned, IMO, a carefully chosen Bouvier (assuming the allergy issue is addressed) would be a far easier and safer bet, and a better family dog than either an Irish or Standard Schnauzer (my apologies to the Irish and Schnauzer folks out there).



I'm not offended, am happy! I don't see either SS or IT happy in this type of scenerio. But seriously a Bouvier? I thought that you really had to know your stuff before getting one of those? They totally intimidate me. Ones that I know have killed dogs. A Friends killed her MIL's JRT. I wouldn't think they are good choice for first time owner? But hey, I'm a spectator on that breed, I have no first hand knowledge at all. 

Do check out the Bouvier Club website, they have a good article on "A Bouvier may not be the dog for you if you like..."


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> Grish, seriously listen to Marsh Muppet and Johnny Bandit. They have loads more experience than me.


 Believe you me, I am listening to all suggestions and I am taking everything into consideration.



> Here is where I see you getting into deep trouble with either breed. When you say "I've never had a dog before" and "I can be firm". Those two sentences put together equal total disaster with either breed you have chosen....


 I can see where these can be trouble with any breed not only the SS and IT. But like you said, Firm and Fair is the answer, just like with the kids. There has to be a balance between firmness and fairness and I think I understand where it lies.



> Do you understand where being Firm and Ignorant could get you into trouble with a dog such as a SS or IT?


 I believe I do. Without following through and being consistent there will definitely be trouble. But being overly firm and not making it fun can also be a problem, just like with kids.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> Do check out the Bouvier Club website, they have a good article on "A Bouvier may not be the dog for you if you like..."


LOL... I saw that one... actually a must have for ALL breeds, puts it just like it is.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Frankly, I think a Bouvier would be the worst of the three choices, but you've ruled those out so....

I would actually suggest going trough your local schnauzer club and looking for an oversized mini in rescue (yes, they do get puppies, usually in the 4-6 months range, and you may be in for a wait, but I've met a number of standard-sized minis from our local rescue group and suspect tat it's not unusual.) The temperament on the minis is a lot more forgiving- te standards are a LOT of dog. 

Learning to be fair is not just about having reasonable expectations. A lot of it is about reading your dog and realizing when a training method isn't working because your dog doesn't understand, isn't working because you're doing it wrong, or isn't working because it just isn't the right method for your dog. It's about knowing when to quit andwhen to insist on the dog keeping on despite frustration. These are things that take a lot of time and practice to learn and you really need a face to face instructor- trying to learn it by yourself is going to be massively annoying for your dog. You can get away with that with a breed who is more forgiving f human inconsistancies (like the poodle) but with the SS or IT, you're just going to get a dog who goes "You know what, screw you. Give me a ring when you figure out what the hell you want, I'll be over here doing my own thing." And once your dog has figured out that YOU don't know what you're doing (and consistantcy is not a substitute for correctness; consistantly wrong is still wrong!), getting him TO start listening is a real challange. I've worked with several standard schnauzers and most of them have had recall issues for precisely this reason- they are smart enough to figure out that hte leas doesn't work if it's not attached.  

I'd actually suggest you look at Soft-coated Wheaton terriers. Their temperament is more forgiving, although they're still definitely in the terrier family. Don't get mislead by the fluffy hair (although you COULD actually probably put one in a bouvier clip- have you ever sen a fawn bouv? ), they're neat dogs!


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

NRB said:


> I'm not offended, am happy! I don't see either SS or IT happy in this type of scenerio. But seriously a Bouvier? I thought that you really had to know your stuff before getting one of those? They totally intimidate me. Ones that I know have killed dogs. A Friends killed her MIL's JRT. I wouldn't think they are good choice for first time owner? But hey, I'm a spectator on that breed, I have no first hand knowledge at all.
> 
> Do check out the Bouvier Club website, they have a good article on "A Bouvier may not be the dog for you if you like..."


Having raised 2 (large male) Bouviers, I feel fairly confident to speak to this. Please notice that I stated, _"a *carefully chosen *Bouvier"._

IMO, _any_ dog should be "chosen carefully". But a powerful breed such as this requires special care in its selection, raising, socialization and training.

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment, NRB. And yes, I had seen the article on the breed; it's very good! Prior to getting our first Bouvier, we researched the heck out of the breed as we had small children at the time, and several of the Bouv's I had known had been "unstable"; this, I subsequently learned was, primarily, a result of the poor job the owners did in raising their dogs and, secondarily (possibly), due to selecting too sharp of a line/puppy. 

In our neighbourhood, we currently have a poorly raised/trained Bouvier which is a law-suit waiting to happen. In this case, it's definitely not the dog's fault - the only dog the owner should have been trusted with, is of the _Beanie-Baby_ variety. But that's another story.

There are poor, unstable examples in any breed. At its best, a Bouvier is easy to train (for the right owner), easy to live with (for the right owner), and a very stable, calm, bold and devoted family member. He tends to be _far_ more "sensible", stable and easy-going than either an Irish or SS. The latter 2 are truly wonderful breeds, just different.

Regarding the "large" size, our 120 pound BRT will easily and happily squeeze into the smallest sub-compact, just to be with his family. Also, larger dogs tend to be far less active indoors.

Oh, and this would, generally speaking, _not_ be a breed which I would recommend for a first time dog owner. It was just (IMO) the best of the options Grish originally mentioned.

Just my opinion, for whatever little it's worth.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> Learning to be fair is not just about having reasonable expectations. A lot of it is about reading your dog and realizing when a training method isn't working because your dog doesn't understand, isn't working because you're doing it wrong, or isn't working because it just isn't the right method for your dog. It's about knowing when to quit andwhen to insist on the dog keeping on despite frustration. These are things that take a lot of time and practice to learn and you really need a face to face instructor- trying to learn it by yourself is going to be massively annoying for your dog. You can get away with that with a breed who is more forgiving f human inconsistancies (like the poodle) but with the SS or IT, you're just going to get a dog who goes "You know what, screw you. Give me a ring when you figure out what the hell you want, I'll be over here doing my own thing." And once your dog has figured out that YOU don't know what you're doing (and consistantcy is not a substitute for correctness; consistantly wrong is still wrong!), getting him TO start listening is a real challange. I've worked with several standard schnauzers and most of them have had recall issues for precisely this reason- they are smart enough to figure out that hte leas doesn't work if it's not attached.


This is the make or break for me.

I don't see either breed as too much if you go use the services of a good experienced trainer at least to get started and get a good obedience foundation established and a good relationship established.

Without it the chances of pain and disaster go way up.

I have been around dogs since I was brought home from the hospital at birth, from German shepherds and boxers and Australian shepherds and Border collie etc. and had some very wonderfully trained dogs I have trained, and I still have found myself hooking up with a good professional trainer in a group class for my current two German shepherd rescues.

If you get good help, as in training end education for you, not so much for the dog, no dog is too much really. 

Trying to self learn is possible, but you have to live with some mistakes for a long time, been there, done that. Having someone instruct you, and be able to educate you on mistakes and guide you can prevent this.

If your going to pay good money for a good pup, and commit to feeding, caring, training and vet bills etc. for the 10-15 years of dogs life adding up to thousands of dollars, don't scrimp on using a trainer to educate yourself and doing it right. It's a small investment that will pay big dividends for a long long time.

Would you send your child to a teacher with no experience teaching kids or no education degree? To a college with professors with no knowledge of their subject matter who are learning on the fly from the web as they teach?

In fact I would investigate all the local training class options and choose one before getting the pup.


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## Reptyle (Aug 9, 2009)

Haven't read all the replies and suggestions, but how about a Boston Terrier? They are small, but not what I would consider "toy" (I believe some are up to 25lbs). And I wouldn't say that they are "breakable."

Short-hair too.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Reptyle said:


> Haven't read all the replies and suggestions, but how about a Boston Terrier? They are small, but not what I would consider "toy" (I believe some are up to 25lbs). And I wouldn't say that they are "breakable."
> 
> Short-hair too.


They need a dog who is good for allergies.....


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## Reptyle (Aug 9, 2009)

Tankstar said:


> They need a dog who is good for allergies.....


My bad. Missed that part.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Dogstar said:


> ...you really need a face to face instructor- trying to learn it by yourself is going to be massively annoying for your dog. You can get away with that with a breed who is more forgiving f human inconsistancies (like the poodle) but with the SS or IT...





TxRider said:


> Trying to self learn is possible, but you have to live with some mistakes for a long time, been there, done that. Having someone instruct you, and be able to educate you on mistakes and guide you can prevent this.
> 
> If your going to pay good money for a good pup, and commit to feeding, caring, training and vet bills etc. for the 10-15 years of dogs life adding up to thousands of dollars, don't scrimp on using a trainer to educate yourself and doing it right. It's a small investment that will pay big dividends for a long long time.


I'll definitely start looking for a local trainer, at least to get me started on the right path. Thank you for the suggestion.



Dogstar said:


> I'd actually suggest you look at Soft-coated Wheaton terriers. Their temperament is more forgiving, although they're still definitely in the terrier family. Don't get mislead by the fluffy hair (although you COULD actually probably put one in a bouvier clip- have you ever sen a fawn bouv? ), they're neat dogs!


 They are nice looking, but I do not see one as my dog. To tell you the truth even an Irish Terrier is sort of a compromise for the wife. 



Reptyle said:


> Haven't read all the replies and suggestions, but how about a Boston Terrier...


 I like the breed but they are not hypoallergenic. I actually love the Pit Bulls and they'd be my first choice, even though they do shed, if the wife wasn't so strongly opposed to them.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

I also agree with neither. 
A miniature poodle would be a really good fit and you do not have to shave their face so as to make their heads look narrow. The longer the hair though, the more work you have to put into brushing, but a well bred Mini poodle would really be ideal. 

I wouldn't recommend a Kerry Blue terrier to a first time owner either, but I feel they are more forgiving than a Schnauzer or Irish Terrier. They may require more exercise than you are able to provide however.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Locke said:


> I also agree with neither.
> A miniature poodle would be a really good fit and you do not have to shave their face so as to make their heads look narrow. The longer the hair though, the more work you have to put into brushing, but a well bred Mini poodle would really be ideal.
> 
> I wouldn't recommend a Kerry Blue terrier to a first time owner either, but I feel they are more forgiving than a Schnauzer or Irish Terrier. They may require more exercise than you are able to provide however.


Thank you, but a poodle and even more so a mini poodle is out of the question for me.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> F
> Learning to be fair is not just about having reasonable expectations. A lot of it is about reading your dog and realizing when a training method isn't working because your dog doesn't understand, isn't working because you're doing it wrong, or isn't working because it just isn't the right method for your dog. It's about knowing when to quit andwhen to insist on the dog keeping on despite frustration. These are things that take a lot of time and practice to learn and you really need a face to face instructor- trying to learn it by yourself is going to be massively annoying for your dog. You can get away with that with a breed who is more forgiving f human inconsistancies (like the poodle) but with the SS or IT, you're just going to get a dog who goes "You know what, screw you. Give me a ring when you figure out what the hell you want, I'll be over here doing my own thing." And once your dog has figured out that YOU don't know what you're doing (and consistantcy is not a substitute for correctness; consistantly wrong is still wrong!), getting him TO start listening is a real challange. I've worked with several standard schnauzers and most of them have had recall issues for precisely this reason- they are smart enough to figure out that hte leas doesn't work if it's not attached.  !


THIS. 

I don't think I communicated effectively in my last post what I meant about Firm and Fair. The above quote does a better job. Or another way to put it; If you know the rules of the game you can be firm and fair. If you do not know the rules of the game when you are firm you are often being unfair. 

Example; Lets say that you are walking my dog and she pulls on the leash. And you react like Ceaser Milan and say "chhtt" and poke her with your hand at the back of the neck". This is considered UnFair in the mind of a Standard Schnauzer. She will respond by either 1) biting your hand. And/or 2) become skittish and afraid of any rapid motion that you make towards her and/or 3) she will try to get as far away from you as she possibly can. Continue training her in this manner and she will eventually hide from you when you get the leash out to go on a walk. And yet, when you do corner her and leash her for a walk she will STILL pull on the leash. So the original problem is still there, plus many more problems that have been created by improper training. To go further in this type of training (Sticking it out) you can end up with a dog that bites any hand that moves towards it's neck. Your child's hand. 

That is an example of UnFair but Firm. .

I'm glad that you said that you will look for a trainer to work with. That would be great. 

Where do you live? If you are close I'll bring my dog over and terrierize your family, er I mean have a cordial visit.....

Ok lets start over and talk about Terriers ok. They have a well deserved reputation for being Barky, Bone Headed and Stubborn, Independant to the point of only needing people to feed them (if terriers had opposable thumbs they'd have taken over the world by now) Diggers. They do have a high pain threshold.

So lets debunk (or not debunk) any myths. My dog barks her head off when she doesn't get what she wants. Usually that's in the form of me. If we all leave the house she barks. When I travel with her and take her to visit my mom she digs. My mom has a fenced yard, I do not. Turn a Schnauzer out in a fenced in yard with an energetic puppy of the same age and what will the Schnauzer do? Run the pants off of the other dog and dig up your moms bushes. And then bark her head off when you leave the Schnauzer with the playmate to go out to dinner with your friends. 

Many dog people will say that the terrier is stubbon. Bone headed. I'd like to think of them as just very very focused. On everything but you. Your job as a Terrier trainer is to get them to think that you are more interesting than the squirrl, cat or other small furry creature that it is intent on chasing down and killing. Which brings up the prey drive. it's there. You are going to work very very hard to get the dog to listen to you. 

Think of it this way. It's going to take ALOT more time to train a Terrier than it does to train a non terrier.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Grish said:


> I like the breed but they are not hypoallergenic. I actually love the Pit Bulls and they'd be my first choice, even though they do shed, if the wife wasn't so strongly opposed to them.


Schnauzers are NOT Hypoallergenic. I don't think IT's are either. I think that the only true hypoallergenic dog is the Poodle. And even then folks with allergies have reactions to them.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> Where do you live? If you are close I'll bring my dog over and terrierize your family, er I mean have a cordial visit.....


Thank you but I'm in the suburbs on NYC, not too close to say the least.




> Example; Lets say that you are walking my dog and she pulls on the leash. And you react like Ceaser Milan and say "chhtt" and poke her with your hand at the back of the neck". This is considered UnFair in the mind of a Standard Schnauzer. She will respond by either 1) biting your hand. And/or 2) become skittish and afraid of any rapid motion that you make towards her and/or 3) she will try to get as far away from you as she possibly can. Continue training her in this manner and she will eventually hide from you when you get the leash out to go on a walk. And yet, when you do corner her and leash her for a walk she will STILL pull on the leash. So the original problem is still there, plus many more problems that have been created by improper training. To go further in this type of training (Sticking it out) you can end up with a dog that bites any hand that moves towards it's neck. Your child's hand.
> 
> That is an example of UnFair but Firm. .


Maybe I've been watching much more of Cesar than you but he doesn't correct a dog every time they pull on a leash and even more so his corrections are different for different dogs. From what I've seen the neck thing is done by Cesar in order to establish the correct pack order for everything else your energy is more important than pocking.
If I'd only seen an episode or two I'd agree with you, but seeing pretty much every episode I think I have a better understandign of Cesar's method than you.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> Schnauzers are NOT Hypoallergenic. I don't think IT's are either.


 Well... no dog is hypoallergenic... right?  It's just some shed and drool less then others...


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Grish said:


> Thank you but I'm in the suburbs on NYC, not too close to say the least.
> M, but seeing pretty much every episode I think I have a better understandign of Cesar's method than you.


Yup, you are to far to visit.

I have watched 2 to 3 years worth of Cesers shows, so I have not seen every one of his shows. But I have read every one of his books. So I do have an understanding of his methods. At one time I even felt his was the right way. Now I understand that it isn't. I do think that the ONE and the only thing that he does have right is the energy thing. That really is it. After reading Karen Pryor and then Pat Miller, Patricia McConnell and others I really felt that Cesar really has had such a profound negative effect on dog training.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> I do think that the ONE and the only thing that he does have right is the energy thing. That really is it. After reading Karen Pryor and then Pat Miller, Patricia McConnell and others I really felt that Cesar really has had such a profound negative effect on dog training.


A negative effect on all of dog training? Really? I can see when someone tries to imitate him without understanding the root cause of the dogs problem it could be problematic, but I do not see him as a having a negative effect onwhole of dog training.
The biggest take aways from him for me were, not to treat dogs as people, establish the pack order and realize what energy you have when working with the dog.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

NRB said:


> Example; Lets say that you are walking my dog and she pulls on the leash. And you react like Ceaser Milan and say "chhtt" and poke her with your hand at the back of the neck". This is considered UnFair in the mind of a Standard Schnauzer.


Aside from the fact I've never seen CM do this for a dog pulling on a leash I agree.

He usually uses that simply to redirect a dogs focus from some distraction it is fixating on back to him when walking from what I've seen.

Some folks use a treat in front of the nose to redirect the focus, some use a toy, some use a gentle leader to pull the dogs face around to face them, some use a leash pop, some just jangle the collar with the leash.

All ways to pull a dogs focus away from some distraction it is fixating on. Which is quite common in working your dog around distractions.

It's all an illustration of why it's best for a first time owner to invest in face to face training with a good trainer especially if they are working with a challenging breed IMO.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Grish said:


> Thank you but I'm in the suburbs on NYC, not too close to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are some GREAT trainers in the NYC suburbs. I think Pat Miller is up there, actually, and Pam Denison is in NJ. Both are pure positive and GOOD at it, although I'm more of a balanced trainer myself. 

The thing is, if you're GOIGN to use corrections to train with, you have GOT to be completely consistant about using them- especially for a behavior like walking on leash. How do you define 'pulling'? Is it when the dog steps out of heel position (walks in front of you)? Is it when they hit the end of the leash? Is it when there's tension on the leash regardless of how short you've made the leash by gathering it up in your hand? You *can* teach a dog to walk nicely on leash with corrections, but it's very hard to do- you cannot EVER just ignore the dog walking badly, because then he has even less idea what is making the corrections happen- and that's unfair training. If you're going to use corrections, you must set the training situation up so that the dog understands what to do in order to make the correction not happen FIRST. 

I think that if you are dead set on these breeds, it'd behoove you to go out and get a lot of hands experience with dogs. I'd suggest volunteering as a dog walker at shelters- IIRC, the big ASPCA shelter actually offers classes and might let volunteers bring shelter dogs to them. I think you need a lot more hands-on experience before bringing either of these breeds home. ITs are a LOT of terrier- I've heard they are the MOST difficult breed in the terrier group to really own and train well, becaus ethey're just that independent. What about some of the other long-legged wire terriers, like a Welshie, or a Lakeland? (although the Lakelands are smaller). 

I'd also recommend you read "Pigs Fly: Obedience Training for Impossible Dogs" and "The Other End of the Leash". 

I *do* think that you came to this board more for ammunition against your wife (which isn't cool arguing tactics anyway ) and weren't expecting the answers you've gotten. I really do think that you need to seriously sit back and THINK about this. You did ask for our opinion, and just because it's not what you wanted, you shouldn't dismiss it. Maybe research some rarer breeds, or spend some time around more wire-coated dogs and see how bad her allergies are. Have you thought about some of the wirecoated sighthounds? 

It's hard, but the appearance of the dog you see yourself with, while not totally inconsequencial, is still not nearly as important as a dog you can LIVE with. A dog that is difficult to train is significantly less likely to work out.


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Grish said:


> Yes, a Bouvier would fit my preferences to the dot if only it was smaller.  Judging by the breed standard they can go to 28 inches while both Schnauzer and Irish only go to 20 inches. In order for me to accomodate a large dog I would have to replace my current cars with larger ones.


Couldn't you just replace one car and that be the dogmobile?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Whatever you do, please please please come back and tell us! I'm always curious about how things worked out, and not enough people come back and update everyone. If you manage to train one of those dogs perfectly, you can say "I told you so"... and if you don't, everyone here is really nice about not being too smug when they attempt to help you fix the mistakes you made. 

I think it's a really great idea to consult a trainer. Even if you don't feel you _need_ one, it's nice to have someone you can ask for advice -- someone who actually knows you and your dog and is familiar with your history, which an Internet forum really can't be, at least not to the same extent. And there's absolutely no shame in working with a professional. I trained my last two dogs (one quite large, one small, both crazy smart) all alone and they turned out great, but I'm still going to take my next dog to puppy socialization and obedience classes (at the _very_ least), because I'm getting a breed with a more "difficult" personality and I want to be sure I do as much right as possible.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Maybe it's just rubbing me the wrong way but toy dogs are most definitely 'real' dogs. You don't have to get one but I HATE it when people say they're not 'real dogs'. I hear it all the time and it drives me insane. I think it's quite rude, honestly.
> 
> Okay had to get that off my chest.


I SO agree, coming from a maltese owner. you beat me to the reply! I think toy breeds are the best of BOTH worlds. She's scared Christian missionaries from my porch before. LOL And most malts I know kick Retrievers butt in agility, obedience, rally, ect. Athough I also agree that toy dogs are NOT for everybody. I know your wife would love them though. LOL  Also, standard poodles are the most high energy, trainable, hyper dogs. LOL They could play fetch for straight days if they could.

I also think a Labradoodle is not the right choice for allergy suffers. What about the Portuguese Water Dog, like the one the Obama's have?


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

NRB said:


> Schnauzers are NOT Hypoallergenic. I don't think IT's are either. I think that the only true hypoallergenic dog is the Poodle. And even then folks with allergies have reactions to them.


And maltese, yorkies, wheaties, Portuguese water dogs.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Darla Giselle said:


> And maltese, yorkies, wheaties, Portuguese water dogs.


Plus all the naked breeds.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> ITs are a LOT of terrier- I've heard they are the MOST difficult breed in the terrier group to really own and train well, becaus ethey're just that independent. What about some of the other long-legged wire terriers, like a Welshie, or a Lakeland? (although the Lakelands are smaller).


Irish Terriers--and all terriers generally--are a lot of dog. Don't be mislead by their small size. They have a reputation as not being particularly "kid friendly", and it is largely well deserved. My Rotties instinctively understood that children were a very special variety of human, and that they were to be 100% tolerated. Terriers don't normally hold the same opinion. 

They can certainly be be socialized to coexist nicely with little people, but they are not inclined to put up with a lot of shenanigans. Your kids have to learn how to handle the dog properly, but then you have to worry about their poorly socialized friends. You respect a terrier's personal space or suffer the penalty of a significant set of choppers. You have to be extremely tuned in to their body language because they can be highly reactive. Warnings have a brief shelf life.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> I *do* think that you came to this board more for ammunition against your wife (which isn't cool arguing tactics anyway ) and weren't expecting the answers you've gotten. I really do think that you need to seriously sit back and THINK about this. You did ask for our opinion, and just because it's not what you wanted, you shouldn't dismiss it. Maybe research some rarer breeds, or spend some time around more wire-coated dogs and see how bad her allergies are. Have you thought about some of the wirecoated sighthounds?
> 
> It's hard, but the appearance of the dog you see yourself with, while not totally inconsequencial, is still not nearly as important as a dog you can LIVE with. A dog that is difficult to train is significantly less likely to work out.


Exactly what I wanted to say!

Also, this business of small dogs not being real dogs is a rather sad display of ignorance. They aren't breakable unless you're picking them up and throwing them around and they do everything large dogs do...except take up space in your car.

It sounds very much like you need to spend some quality time with a wide variety of dogs (including some smaller ones) so that you get a handle on actual personalities, versus looks that you like or dislike.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Grish said:


> I didn't mean to offend... but handling a dog and being affraid of breaking it constitues a toy, not a real dog for me.


I have an 11 lbs Miniature Dachshund who is not only not "breakable" but incredibly hardy. And you would NOT be able to handle him. 



FilleBelle said:


> It sounds very much like you need to spend some quality time with a wide variety of dogs (including some smaller ones) so that you get a handle on actual personalities, versus looks that you like or dislike.


This. For the personality AND the allergy issue I think is getting kind of buried here.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Grish said:


> I am probably as stubborn as these two dogs' descriptions put together. I do plan to follow through completely.
> 
> An ideal dog for me, based solely on breed standard descriptions and pictures, would probably be Bouvier des Flanders. But I'd have to make too many changes to accomodate a large dog.
> 
> First time dog owners suggestions do not take into account an individual, but generalize a great deal, just as dog breed general standards. I did go through these "first timer recommendations" lists and cannot find a single dog that I like.


Frankly, IMO the Bouv would be more forgiving of a first time owner than a Standard Schnauzer and especially an Irish Terrier. 

You said in one of your posts that you are not set up for a dog the size of a Bouv. But with dogs its not so much the size. A Great Dane is likely to make a better dog in a small place than a Border Collie. And the Dane is three times the size. 

In any case, I belong to the school of "its not how much space you have, but how much time you give."

But none of the dogs you are talking about are easy.....They are all VERY tough minded and VERY tough physically. 

All three breeds will rule you if you let them. None are what I would call biddable. ESPECIALLY the Irish Terrier. They are going to test your will and resolve. 

You talk about wanting a "Real" dog and that none of the dogs on the lists for first time dog owners. The dogs suggested for first time owners, tend to be forgiving, affable, and biddable. 

Another thing to keep in mind..... You are not likely to find any of these three breeds in a regular shelter. So you will be looking at breeders or maybe breed rescues. 

Please do not take this personal. But....

You are going to have to convince them that you as a first time owner can handle the breed. Its not going to be easy for you to do. Many of the things you have said on this thread are not going to do it. I would especially get rid of the "real dog" comments. 

I am involved with a breed known for being less than forgiving and hard to handle. The percentage of first time owners that are successful with them, is not good. Some breeders will not even consider an applicant that is a first time owner.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> They can certainly be be socialized to coexist nicely with little people, but they are not inclined to put up with a lot of shenanigans. Your kids have to learn how to handle the dog properly, but then you have to worry about their poorly socialized friends. You respect a terrier's personal space or suffer the penalty of a significant set of choppers. You have to be extremely tuned in to their body language because they can be highly reactive. Warnings have a brief shelf life.


^^^^ This!!

I find terriers, especially schnauzers, to be very serious dogs. They are playful and have a fun side, but their idea of fun is not typically what a 5 or 10 year old considers fun. They do not have that child magnetism like a well bred Golden. They do not put up with S***.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Locke said:


> ^^^^ This!!
> 
> I find terriers, especially schnauzers, to be very serious dogs. They are playful and have a fun side, but their idea of fun is not typically what a 5 or 10 year old considers fun. They do not have that child magnetism like a well bred Golden. They do not put up with S***.


Agreed!!!!!!!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

After all the sound and fury has died down, I believe Grish is probably going to do what Grish has already decided to do. That stubbornness will hold you in good stead if you get some competent help with the training. That means a trainer who has worked with (and preferably titled) a wide variety of dogs. You want to find somebody with a very deep bag of tricks. Trainers who only parrot Cesar Milan, or think "click and treat" is the Alpha & Omega, or have not learned anything beyond Koehler, should be avoided. Not that any of those methods are necessarily wrong, but there is no one true religion in dog training. In my opinion, at least.

Also, find a first rate breeder who considers proper temperament to be the 1st order of business. Ask questions but _listen_ to the breeders' boasts. If you listen to a person long enough, you'll find out what he considers important.

If you get it right, Irish Terriers and Standard Schnauzers grow up to be the kinds of dogs that people sing songs and tell stories about around the campfire. Get it wrong and expect your neighbors to start circulating petitions, and to have your home owners insurance canceled.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Dogstar said:


> There are some GREAT trainers in the NYC suburbs. I think Pat Miller is up there, actually, and Pam Denison is in NJ. Both are pure positive and GOOD at it, although I'm more of a balanced trainer myself.


 I'll definitely look up these trainers once I get close to actually bringing a puppy into the house.



> I think that if you are dead set on these breeds, it'd behoove you to go out and get a lot of hands experience with dogs.


I am dead set on the Schnauzer and by the replies on this thread I am getting an impression that there are more Schnauzer people than Irish here. I am not going to go to a shelter and walk dogs, if I can handle workers,kids and wife I think I'll be fine. 



> I'd also recommend you read "Pigs Fly: Obedience Training for Impossible Dogs" and "The Other End of the Leash".


 I'll definitely be doing a lot of reading. Thank you for the suggestion.



> I *do* think that you came to this board more for ammunition against your wife (which isn't cool arguing tactics anyway ) and weren't expecting the answers you've gotten.


 Not really, I have all the ammunition I needed from the dog review sites out there. The replies are what I wanted to hear, actual experiences with the breeds and how to best approach the particular breed.



> It's hard, but the appearance of the dog you see yourself with, while not totally inconsequencial, is still not nearly as important as a dog you can LIVE with. A dog that is difficult to train is significantly less likely to work out.


 Maybe you are right. But humans are more of a sight breed and looks that you can stand are important.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

sablegsd said:


> Couldn't you just replace one car and that be the dogmobile?


 I just got my car 9 months ago which I'm not changing any time soon.  If I have to tell my wife, honey how about a big dog and a new car for you to carry it in she'll probably throw me out of the house right there.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> Whatever you do, please please please come back and tell us! I'm always curious about how things worked out, and not enough people come back and update everyone.


Oh, I will stick around, this looks to be a pretty good forum with a lot of good information.



> If you manage to train one of those dogs perfectly, you can say "I told you so"... and if you don't, everyone here is really nice about not being too smug when they attempt to help you fix the mistakes you made.


 Yep, either way the dog I'll get will be trained. 



> I think it's a really great idea to consult a trainer.


 The trainer was a great idea I have not thought of and I'll definitely go that route, at least to get a good start.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> ...I think toy breeds are the best of BOTH worlds....I know your wife would love them though.


My parents have a maltese and my kids love the dog, my wife on the other hand is on the same page as I am, a toy is a toy... 



> What about the Portuguese Water Dog, like the one the Obama's have?


 Too poodle like and neither I or my wife like poodles that much.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Your kids have to learn how to handle the dog properly, but then you have to worry about their poorly socialized friends. You respect a terrier's personal space or suffer the penalty of a significant set of choppers.


 That's all perfectly fine with me, as with any dog, not only a terrier you have to establish boundaries for the people that interact with the dog. I don't think the terriers are as bad as you describe them and will bite rather than retreat...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Pai said:


> Plus all the naked breeds.


 I want a dog not a hot water bottle.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> ...this business of small dogs not being real dogs is a rather sad display of ignorance...


 I wouldn't call it ignorance but rather a personal preference. Some people like small cars others like big ones. Some men like petite women others like big ones. Ignorance or preference?


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> ...the personality AND the allergy issue I think is getting kind of buried here.


 But it's a good discussion none the less.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Grish said:


> I wouldn't call it ignorance but rather a personal preference. Some people like small cars others like big ones. Some men like petite women others like big ones. Ignorance or preference?


I think most people are upset that you keep calling them "not real dogs" and "toys." That's not having a preference, that's acting like people who have the opposite preference are wrong. Or don't have dogs. To people on a dog forum.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Frankly, IMO the Bouv would be more forgiving of a first time owner than a Standard Schnauzer and especially an Irish Terrier.
> 
> You said in one of your posts that you are not set up for a dog the size of a Bouv. But with dogs its not so much the size. A Great Dane is likely to make a better dog in a small place than a Border Collie. And the Dane is three times the size.


 I read throuogh all of the breeds descriptions and Bouv would work best for me but the size is still an issue... A Great Dane is a gorgeous dog but my wife is TOTALLY opposed to a dog that large. 



> In any case, I belong to the school of "its not how much space you have, but how much time you give."
> 
> But none of the dogs you are talking about are easy.....They are all VERY tough minded and VERY tough physically.
> 
> All three breeds will rule you if you let them. None are what I would call biddable. ESPECIALLY the Irish Terrier. They are going to test your will and resolve.


 I know what I'll be getting myself into and I am prepared to deal with it. Either with a trainer or books, most likely both. The dog will be trained one way or another.



> Another thing to keep in mind..... You are not likely to find any of these three breeds in a regular shelter. So you will be looking at breeders or maybe breed rescues.


 I am planning to go to a breeder and not a shelter.



> You are going to have to convince them that you as a first time owner can handle the breed. Its not going to be easy for you to do. Many of the things you have said on this thread are not going to do it. I would especially get rid of the "real dog" comments.
> 
> I am involved with a breed known for being less than forgiving and hard to handle. The percentage of first time owners that are successful with them, is not good. Some breeders will not even consider an applicant that is a first time owner.


 I'll have to rehearse my breeder speech then.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Locke said:


> They do not have that child magnetism like a well bred Golden. They do not put up with S***.


This is what I want, kids to be responsible and not just paly with the dog.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Grish said:


> I wouldn't call it ignorance but rather a personal preference. Some people like small cars others like big ones. *Some men like petite women others like big ones.* Ignorance or preference?


But would you say to someone who liked petite women that their girlfriend wasn't a real woman??

That's what we're getting at with the toy breed thing.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Grish said:


> I don't think the terriers are as bad as you describe them and will bite rather than retreat...


There are terriers who are purely chicken-hearted, but properly bred terriers don't really do retreating so well. They confront any threat while moving forward--to the point of recklessness. That's why I highly recommend finding a breeder who understands terrier temperament. Too many people confuse terrier "gameness" with a kamikaze ethic. A properly bred terrier is a plenty hard dog, and they run pretty hot. If those traits are not balanced by good sense and a stable temperament, you can have a real problem on your hands. Same goes for the Schnauzers. They should never be soft or lazy, but you don't want to bring a psycho into your home.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Grish said:


> This is what I want, kids to be responsible and not just paly with the dog.


So you mean walk it and such?

Terriers are not typically dog friendly. Socialization with dogs will be extremely important if you want your 10 year old or 5 year old to walk your dog without worrying about getting into a dog fight. Those terriers are tenacious.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> After all the sound and fury has died down, I believe Grish is probably going to do what Grish has already decided to do. That stubbornness will hold you in good stead if you get some competent help with the training. That means a trainer who has worked with (and preferably titled) a wide variety of dogs. You want to find somebody with a very deep bag of tricks. Trainers who only parrot Cesar Milan, or think "click and treat" is the Alpha & Omega, or have not learned anything beyond Koehler, should be avoided. Not that any of those methods are necessarily wrong, but there is no one true religion in dog training. In my opinion, at least.


 Definitely finding a good trainer would be key, and like yourself I do not like trainers that only do their own routine without the ability to adjust to individual dogs as it may do more harm.



> Also, find a first rate breeder who considers proper temperament to be the 1st order of business.


 Will definitely look for the more sedate puppy rather than an active one. 



> If you get it right, Irish Terriers and Standard Schnauzers grow up to be the kinds of dogs that people sing songs and tell stories about around the campfire. Get it wrong and expect your neighbors to start circulating petitions, and to have your home owners insurance canceled.


My next door neighbor has a King Sheppard and that damn dog barks constantly, attacks anything on sight and had no training at all... I doubt a Schnauzer can top that.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Locke said:


> So you mean walk it and such?


 I mean for the children to respect a dog and to understand it, in addition to walking it.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> There are terriers who are purely chicken-hearted, but properly bred terriers don't really do retreating so well. They confront any threat while moving forward--to the point of recklessness. That's why I highly recommend finding a breeder who understands terrier temperament. Too many people confuse terrier "gameness" with a kamikaze ethic. A properly bred terrier is a plenty hard dog, and they run pretty hot. If those traits are not balanced by good sense and a stable temperament, you can have a real problem on your hands. Same goes for the Schnauzers. They should never be soft or lazy, but you don't want to bring a psycho into your home.


I'll definitely work with the breeder on selecting the right pup. Thanks.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Locke said:


> But would you say to someone who liked petite women that their girlfriend wasn't a real woman??


 Funny you should mention it... I do get myself in trouble sometimes... 



RaeganW said:


> I think most people are upset that you keep calling them "not real dogs" and "toys."


 I think I should add IMHO to all of my above comments.  It's a personal preference of a hard headed guy... that's all.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

If you're on Long Island, I can give you the name of a good trainer.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Grish said:


> I wouldn't call it ignorance but rather a personal preference. Some people like small cars others like big ones. Some men like petite women others like big ones. Ignorance or preference?


Preference. But to say that a Mini Cooper isn't a car because it is small is illogical at best and ignorant at worst. You aren't saying you prefer large dogs. You are saying small dogs are not real dogs. This most certainly demonstrates and lack of knowledge, education, and awareness, which is the very definition of ignorance. 

My suspicion is that you know as little about miniature Poodles as you do about Schnauzers, but prefer the look of one to the other and so claim that Poodles are not your type of dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If someone really doesn't like the look of a poodle, they shouldn't get a poodle. I don't like how they look, either, no matter how they're groomed. I love intelligent dogs, and from what I know of poodles, I think I would enjoy working with one. I definitely respect their intelligence and trainability. But when I get a dog, I am going to be looking at that dog every day for 12 years or more, and I want a dog whose appearance I love. I think the key is to figure out what you want in a dog, temperament/intelligence/activity level/size-wise, and then find out which breeds fit your criteria and narrow your search from there based on looks. No, you should never choose a breed based purely on looks, but there's no need to completely ignore your preferences in that area.

Grish, like many posters here, I don't think you've chosen the best breed for your situation. However, you're willing to work with a trainer and to read training books, and you've kept a good attitude while reading and replying to the criticism here, and that's a hell of a lot more than many people would do. I wish you luck with whatever dog you choose.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I absolutely agree with you, Cran. My claim was not that anyone should have a dog of which they do not like the look. I was simply hypothesizing that the OP doesn't actually know that much about the breeds (small dogs) he professes not to like. The "Poodle" in my example could easily have been replaced with "Jack Russell," "Miniature Schnauzer," "Boston Terrier," etc.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Agreed with you there! I thought I was picky about dogs' looks, but Grish puts me to shame. 

Grish, even if your wife can't attend a dog show due to allergies, I think you should go to one... even if you have your heart set on a schnauzer. Actually, _especially_ if you have your heart set on a schnauzer, because shows are an excellent place to meet breeders in person, see their dogs, and get a real feel for what both are like. I know I've enjoyed meeting different papillon breeders and seeing who I clicked with! Also, while you're there, you can check out other breeds and talk to other breeders, too, just to explore your options.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> If you're on Long Island, I can give you the name of a good trainer.


Thanks, but I am on Staten Island, below Manhatten.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Preference. But to say that a Mini Cooper isn't a car because it is small is illogical at best and ignorant at worst. You aren't saying you prefer large dogs. You are saying small dogs are not real dogs. This most certainly demonstrates and lack of knowledge, education, and awareness, which is the very definition of ignorance.
> 
> My suspicion is that you know as little about miniature Poodles as you do about Schnauzers, but prefer the look of one to the other and so claim that Poodles are not your type of dog.


 Ignorance... maybe... but I don't get upset and emotional when someone doesn't see my small car as not a real car, and believe me I had those conversations 

The look is EXACTLY what I like or dislike, not the personality and etc..


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> Grish, like many posters here, I don't think you've chosen the best breed for your situation. However, you're willing to work with a trainer and to read training books, and you've kept a good attitude while reading and replying to the criticism here, and that's a hell of a lot more than many people would do. I wish you luck with whatever dog you choose.


 I actually realize that the SS or IT is a challenging breed right as I was looking them over on the web, but there is always the right way to deal with challenges and here is a good discussion on the do's and dont's for these breed... besides the other fun side topics.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Grish said:


> Ignorance... maybe... but I don't get upset and emotional when someone doesn't see my small car as not a real car, and believe me I had those conversations
> 
> The look is EXACTLY what I like or dislike, not the personality and etc..


I don't think anyone is upset or emotional about it, merely offering advice for which you asked. Your last sentence is of great concern to anyone who cares about animals in the least. When you purchase a living creature because you like the way it looks and care nothing for its temperament, you are more likely to end up getting rid of the animal when you discover it doesn't fit you or your lifestyle.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> Agreed with you there! I thought I was picky about dogs' looks, but Grish puts me to shame.
> 
> Grish, even if your wife can't attend a dog show due to allergies, I think you should go to one... even if you have your heart set on a schnauzer. Actually, _especially_ if you have your heart set on a schnauzer, because shows are an excellent place to meet breeders in person, see their dogs, and get a real feel for what both are like. I know I've enjoyed meeting different papillon breeders and seeing who I clicked with! Also, while you're there, you can check out other breeds and talk to other breeders, too, just to explore your options.


There's going to be a dog show in NJ on March 26,27,28 which I am planning to attend.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Hey, where in Jersey are you?

(Completely non-dog related, just spent a lot of time NJ.)

ETA: Gah, just saw you're in NY. Sorry.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I'd also suggest not ruling breeds out completely just because of looks or size. 4 or 5 years ago, if you'd asked me if I'd ever own a toy breed, the answer would have been a resounding no! I was convinced that I only liked medium to large breeds, and I'm embarressed to admit, kind of thought toy dogs weren't real dogs either. Then I went to work at a doggy daycare as a supervisor, and I met my first Pugs. Their personalities got me hook, line and sinker, and I fell head over heels in love with the breed, and I couldn't imagine ever not having one in my life. Once I fell in love with the personality, I fell in love with the looks. It's funny, my preferences looks wise in dogs has completely changed since then from herding and working breed types to the smooshy faced types.  I'm not saying to get a toy breed, not at all, just don't close off your opinion of a breed, regardless of what you think of their looks, until you've met and spent time with them. You just might find that your preferences change with experience.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

How dare you suggest it, Kuma'sMom!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

LOL, I know, I know, but I'm reformed, I swear! Watching a 16 lb Pug face down a 100 lb Rottweiler and the Rottweiler backing away will convince anyone not to write a toy breed off as not a real dog, lol. I think that's pretty much the moment I was well and truly Pugged.


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I'd also suggest not ruling breeds out completely just because of looks or size. 4 or 5 years ago, if you'd asked me if I'd ever own a toy breed, the answer would have been a resounding no! I was convinced that I only liked medium to large breeds, and I'm embarressed to admit, kind of thought toy dogs weren't real dogs either. Then I went to work at a doggy daycare as a supervisor, and I met my first Pugs. Their personalities got me hook, line and sinker, and I fell head over heels in love with the breed, and I couldn't imagine ever not having one in my life. Once I fell in love with the personality, I fell in love with the looks. It's funny, my preferences looks wise in dogs has completely changed since then from herding and working breed types to the smooshy faced types.  I'm not saying to get a toy breed, not at all, just don't close off your opinion of a breed, regardless of what you think of their looks, until you've met and spent time with them. You just might find that your preferences change with experience.


Very good advice! I have a standard schnauzer but I picked the breed after much research into a breed that would fit into our lifestyle both physically and mentally. There were a lot of things that I required and many that were on my “would be nice list” and the SS fit most of them. Years ago I would have told you I would never own a schnauzer but experience and research taught me otherwise. Now, I probably won’t ever own anything other than a schnauzer – their personalities and intelligence have just won me over big time.

I think if you get a beautiful dog but they don't mesh with your personality and therefore you don’t bond, you won't think much of the dog even if it is aesthetically pleasing. However, if you get a dog that fits with your personality and you bond with it, it is going to be beautiful to you. When picking a breed, getting a dog that fits into your lifestyle and matches your personality is very important. I think labs and goldens are beautiful but I would never own one because my tastes veer towards GSDs, Schnauzers, etc. It is the personality of the GSDs and Schnauzers that I love more than the looks.


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## toblerone (Nov 24, 2009)

So I've read all of the posts and though its late in the game thought I'd say something. I currently have a schnauzer mix and a bichon frise at home so I can sort of address both camps. 

First Schnauzers are quite a handful especially at first, though with proper training can mellow out a bit, but what happens when they get old? I know my mix is getting quite cranky at times now that she's up in age and if god forbid, some health problems come up I've found schnauzers don't always take the problem in the same way a nice calm breed does. Speaking of mixes, have you thought about adopting a mix breed? I've found that the main terrier spirit can be in a mix, but nicely tempered with something else. Plus its always fun to have a "guess what my dog is" thing with people. 

Second Bichons are very good for allergies and seriously one of the happiest dogs you could ever ask for. Excellent with kids and people even with very little socialization. All they want to do is please and when kept in a good puppy cut aren't frou frou at all. Plus since you want a medium dog you might be able to find a puppy too large for show to be an excellent pet, and trust me bichons can play like no tomorrow!

Mostly I'm just a little sad that you don't want to consider shelter or rescued dogs. Honestly my current puppy came from a shelter and has been a pure joy and easy to train.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Hey, where in Jersey are you?
> 
> (Completely non-dog related, just spent a lot of time NJ.)
> 
> ETA: Gah, just saw you're in NY. Sorry.


I do work in Hoboken, NJ


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> ...Then I went to work at a doggy daycare as a supervisor, and I met my first Pugs...


 I don't consider Pugs a toy breed. They are great, my sister has one and the dog is fun, but it sheds a whole lot.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Ah, but they are.  My point wasn't really about toys per say, anyway. What I was trying to say is that the dog breeds that I thought I wanted, and thought were perfect for me at the time, were really completely wrong for me, and when I opened up my mind, I found the perfect breed for me, and it was one that I'd never even considered. I'm not saying that the breeds that you like are wrong for you, just that you should focus on personality, energy level, trainability first, and looks second. When you find a dog whose personality matches with yours, more often than not, your appreciation of their appearance will grow. However, if the dog isn't a good match for you, all the good looks in the world won't matter one bit.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

MicheleZ said:


> I think if you get a beautiful dog but they don't mesh with your personality and therefore you don’t bond, you won't think much of the dog even if it is aesthetically pleasing. However, if you get a dog that fits with your personality and you bond with it, it is going to be beautiful to you.


From what I've been reading on them the fit is pretty decent.


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

Grish said:


> From what I've been reading on them the fit is pretty decent.


Going to the shows and talking to the breeders is going to be a HUGE plus. I talked for a very long time with the breeder I got my SS from and we visited with her for hours before making a decision. She was extremely happy to tell us everything and anything about the breed. Also, a good breeder will always have in the contract that they will take the puppy back if for some reason you don't want it or can't keep it - not saying that you should get it because of the "out" clause but just saying make sure to get one from a breeder that cares enough to make sure the dog is taken care of if you decide it isn't for you. Also, SS are hard to find - they are not a very popular breed. You should be able to make some good contacts at the shows in order to find a good breeder. Also, check out the SSCA website for breeders in your area.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

toblerone said:


> Plus its always fun to have a "guess what my dog is" thing with people.


 I don't know, right now I'm set on a SS, my wife isn't so that may change things.



> Mostly I'm just a little sad that you don't want to consider shelter or rescued dogs. Honestly my current puppy came from a shelter and has been a pure joy and easy to train.


 If I'm going to bring an animal into my home I want to know it's heritage and where it came from...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> My point wasn't really about toys per say, anyway. What I was trying to say is that the dog breeds that I thought I wanted, and thought were perfect for me at the time, were really completely wrong for me, and when I opened up my mind, I found the perfect breed for me, and it was one that I'd never even considered....


 I have a more limited list to work with as I need a hypoallergenic dog, otherwise this would be a whole different discussion.


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

Grish said:


> I have a more limited list to work with as I need a hypoallergenic dog, otherwise this would be a whole different discussion.


Please keep in mind that the SS is NOT hypoallergenic.....miniature schnauzers are.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

No dogs are hypoallergenic.


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> No dogs are hypoallergenic.


Technically true, but SS are LESS allergy friendly than miniatures.

Hypoallergenic gets thrown around a lot so most people use it for describing low-allergen dogs.

Taken from this website: http://dogs.about.com/od/dogbreeds/qt/hypoallergenic.htm


Hypoallergenic dog breeds can be a great option for some dog lovers who suffer from allergies. No dog is 100% non-allergenic, but some dogs are basically "low-allergy." Though they shed little to no hair and less dander than typical dogs, all dogs will shed some dander - even hairless dogs. Generally, dogs without hair or with continuously growing hair tend to be the most hypoallergenic. However, some of these dogs will need to be kept on a strict grooming schedule. Please note that some people are actually allergic to dog saliva. Unfortunately, there are no specific breeds with "hypoallergenic saliva."


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I have a more limited list to work with as I need a hypoallergenic dog, otherwise this would be a whole different discussion.


But your list of potential dogs is much longer than just the two you're looking at, neither of which are hypallergenic by the way. My point, which you still seem to be missing, lol, is that you are ignoring a whole list of potentially wonderful dogs, who may or may not be a better match for you, strictly based on looks. My point is that you need to get out and meet representatives of each breed, and evaluate them based on how they match your family personality wise and how they meet your needs. Your taste in appearances can change, and likely will if you meet the right match. All the great looks in the world can't make up for getting the wrong match. And, it's very easy to convince yourself that a breed is a good match for you based on reading. You'll get a much more accurate idea of how a breed will fit with your family once you spend time with them.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> I'm not going to attempt to talk you into a little white fluffball or anything, but what do you consider a "real dog?" Are you opposed to all smaller dogs, or just fluffy white ones? (And by the way, my papillon -- one of the top 10 intelligent and trainable dog breeds with tons of energy and an aversion to being carried like a baby or stuffed into a purse -- may be toy _sized_, but she is no toy.) If you'd be willing to consider smaller dogs (15-30 lbs or so), you have a few more choices in the less allergenic realm -- the Basenji, for example, or the Australian, Cairn, Norwich or Soft-Coated Wheaten terriers (the latter is actually medium-sized at 30-45lbs). None of these are toy-sized dogs, and they should all look "real dog" enough for you.


I too have 2 papillons who consider being carried and stuffed into little purses as punishment. I've met my fair share of "real dog" breeds who were babied to death, and in turn were far from what most people would consider a "real dog". You get out of your dog what you put INTO your dog, if you raise a great dane to act like a baby, you'll get a 200 pound baby. If you raise a chihuahua to act like a dog and deal with the world on his own 4 paws, you'll get a 5 pound "real dog". The whole "I want a BIG dog, a REAL dog" argument has always irked me just a tad


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Tankstar said:


> Honestly id go with a standard poodle. Much easier to handle then the SS or IT. They are a good sized hunting breed. very trainable, great with people of all ages, dogs, ect
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We board a "real dog" breed who is so spoiled and babied she does nothing but scream and moan the whole time she's here. Not what I consider a "real dog" at all  Meanwhile we board plenty of small breeds (you know, little toy baby foofey dogs) that gladly charge outside into the snow, play with toys, etc. 
I groomed a huge huge breed of dog a few weeks ago who absolutely would NOT walk on her own 4 paws, and it took 3 people to lift her and get her going so we didn't have to carry her (or worse, drag her). One lab we board every so often won't even think of walking on his own, the owners carry this 100 pound dog everywhere he goes 
Like I say...you get out of your dog what you put into it....you can have a 220 pound irish wolfhound who acts like a wimp and a 4 pound toy breed who walks on their own 4 paws.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I'd also suggest not ruling breeds out completely just because of looks or size. 4 or 5 years ago, if you'd asked me if I'd ever own a toy breed, the answer would have been a resounding no! I was convinced that I only liked medium to large breeds, and I'm embarressed to admit, kind of thought toy dogs weren't real dogs either. Then I went to work at a doggy daycare as a supervisor, and I met my first Pugs. Their personalities got me hook, line and sinker, and I fell head over heels in love with the breed, and I couldn't imagine ever not having one in my life. Once I fell in love with the personality, I fell in love with the looks. It's funny, my preferences looks wise in dogs has completely changed since then from herding and working breed types to the smooshy faced types.  I'm not saying to get a toy breed, not at all, just don't close off your opinion of a breed, regardless of what you think of their looks, until you've met and spent time with them. You just might find that your preferences change with experience.


I think it's great when someone finds "their" breed, especially if it's a breed they never really would have considered before they met them  I like collie-dog types. Longer noses, pointy-ish ears, long tails, etc. Papillons and GSD's aren't collie or colley dogs, but they share some of the basic looks I like, and possess the kind of intelligence I adore. The papillons would stand on their head if I asked them too, and Auz is one of those dogs who does really dumb things, but then can turn around and amaze you in a real life situation. I have considered border collies, scotch (aka old farm type) collies, shelties, and english shepherds. Can you see a trend?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I do, and it's funny, because those were exactly the types of dogs that appealed to me before I found my breed, lol. Turns out the breed that was perfect for me was about as opposite as you could get from what I thought I wanted, which is my point here. Don't rule breeds out based on looks. You could be missing out on the perfect breed for you. To me, it always makes more sense to compile a list of what you need/want in a breed in terms of energy, personality, grooming, etc., find the breeds that match that list the most, and then MEET those breeds and see which one clicks with you the most. Looks should be last, IMO.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MicheleZ said:


> Very good advice! I have a standard schnauzer but I picked the breed after much research into a breed that would fit into our lifestyle both physically and mentally. There were a lot of things that I required and many that were on my “would be nice list” and the SS fit most of them. Years ago I would have told you I would never own a schnauzer but experience and research taught me otherwise. Now, I probably won’t ever own anything other than a schnauzer – their personalities and intelligence have just won me over big time.
> 
> I think if you get a beautiful dog but they don't mesh with your personality and therefore you don’t bond, you won't think much of the dog even if it is aesthetically pleasing. However, if you get a dog that fits with your personality and you bond with it, it is going to be beautiful to you. When picking a breed, getting a dog that fits into your lifestyle and matches your personality is very important. I think labs and goldens are beautiful but I would never own one because my tastes veer towards GSDs, Schnauzers, etc. It is the personality of the GSDs and Schnauzers that I love more than the looks.


And it's important to remember there are always ALWAYS personality variations within a single breed. Auz is GSD'y a lot of the time, when it's important. He's very quiet and dignified when out in public, but having him at home is like owning some 9 month old goon-ball lab mix, he doesn't ALWAYS possess that "quiet dignity" most people think about when they think of a good GSD. As far as the papillons go, Dude is on the low end of the "papillons are a high-energy breed" scale, and Tag pretty much goes off the charts. Having Tag is kind of like owning a box car with an 8 cylinder engine.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I do, and it's funny, because those were exactly the types of dogs that appealed to me before I found my breed, lol. Turns out the breed that was perfect for me was about as opposite as you could get from what I thought I wanted, which is my point here. Don't rule breeds out based on looks. You could be missing out on the perfect breed for you. To me, it always makes more sense to compile a list of what you need/want in a breed in terms of energy, personality, grooming, etc., find the breeds that match that list the most, and then MEET those breeds and see which one clicks with you the most. Looks should be last, IMO.


It's funny, because a friend of mine who works with me is an avid BC person. She has 2 smooth coats. When a family member of hers passed away, she inherited their two pugs, and she was PUGGED  She told me the other day she can't imagine how she's gone so long without having a pug in her life. 
We had a collie, a lab, and then a terrier mix when I was a kid. I was hooked the day I met my first papillon. I think about how boring (and quiet, and less headaches lol) my life would be without papillons in it, and wonder how I went 18 years not knowing what I was missing!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> If I'm going to bring an animal into my home I want to know it's heritage and where it came from...


I too am all for rescue, but I get a little miffed when people (not you) act like "WHY would you buy from a breeder when you could RESCUE?", like it's taboo to buy a well bred animal. No way in %*(@ was I going to bring an unknown German Shepherd into a house with toy breed dogs and cats galore 4 years ago, we went through a very good breeder who also serves as a mentor. 
I know rescue dogs are wonderful. I have one. And have had them in the past. But I don't get the point of view that EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE has to rescue a dog, even if they're doing their best to find a good breeder (and not give money to crap breeders) who are trying to do RIGHT by the breed they're passionate about.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Grish said:


> My next door neighbor has a King Sheppard and that damn dog barks constantly, attacks anything on sight and had no training at all... I doubt a Schnauzer can top that.


Dude, seriously you need to meet my dog. Except the no training part. Lots of barking, howling and yodeling (SS are very vocal as a rule) want's to kill the cat, think the cow statue at the vets is the devil himself. But lets anyone walk in the door. Hasn't met a person that she doesn't instantly love. Yet spends most of her time in the house apart from the family (on her own volition) (Terriers are independant ya know)

Ok so you are set on the SS but the wife isn't a 100% yet. Please DO stay on this board and let us know how it all washed out. My husband is rubbing his hands together, cackling in the background because he can't wait to hear what happens in your house when you have a 6mo Schnauzer. He's not a big fan of the SS, however he did say the other day, "You know we should get another SS because it would be impossible to find a dog more difficult than our own" Which is funny. But I digress.

Interview breeders, LOTS of them. Think of it as getting bids for a construction project. Research and find 4 to 5 reputable SS breeders in your area. Go online and find the Natl organization and then the local clubs in your area to find these people. Find people who have been breeding for more than 10 years. Find people who are active in their breed clubs and are highly thought of by their peers. People who have a solid reputation. Do your research and make a list of questions to ask; Are the hips and eyes certified? How far back in the bloodline have they been doing the health testing? Does the breeder breed LOTS of dogs per year or 1-2 litters? How old are the bitches when they are bred (2 young is bad) How often are they bred (again to often is usually bad) Ask if they do Volhard Puppy Aptitude testing. (or other aptitude testing) Ask if they match a puppy to the prospective owner (This is good) or if they just take a deposit on first come first serve (this is bad) Do they keep in touch with their puppy owners (no is bad) Decide if you want natural or cropped ears. Does the breeder offer you either? Do they take the dog back, no questions asked if it doesn't work out? (this is very good and don't be an idiot and ask for your money back, you are not going to get it) Do they give you a 1-2 week trial period to have the puppy vetted to guarantee good health? And they will hold your check while this is done. (no is bad) Does the breeder want to meet you and interview you BEFORE agreeing to sell you a dog? (yes is good, if no run the other way) Basically is the breeder genuinely interested in the betterment of the breed and want the very best for their puppies or are they just going to sell to anyone who has the $$

And on the $$ issue don't bitch if you pay 1.5 to 2 k for the dog. If that's to much to spend, find another breed. 

Humm what else? Oh yes, personality within the LITTER. When I got my pup the breeder had 1 other from the same litter. She said that pup was not available to me. As in she would never place it with a family with children. Now the pup that I was there to see, was good with children. The breeder had been breeding for 20 or 30 years, and had her pups evaluated by and outside person for the Volhard Aptitude test. ANyway, she was dead on. My girl is perfect with my toddler daughter. So the whole thing about terriers being bad with children is TRUE if you bought the other puppy. In other words if you went to the wrong breeder you could end up with a dog unsuitable for children. 

BUT personally I don't think any good SS breeder worth their salt would sell to someone who was a first time dog owner.

and on the beauty thing... I got to admit I too fell for the breed. And when my dog is terrible and I wonder what was I thinking to let a terrier in our house I stop and think, Well, at least she's beautiful........

But don't forget, 
pretty is 
isn't always 
pretty does.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MicheleZ said:


> Technically true, but SS are LESS allergy friendly than miniatures.
> 
> Hypoallergenic gets thrown around a lot so most people use it for describing low-allergen dogs.
> 
> ...


I just personally do not like to use the term when it applies to dogs. The definition of hypoallergenic actually is true in this case, but many people hear hypoallergenic and think "that means I will absolutely not be allergic to the dog." which is not always the case.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I just personally do not like to use the term when it applies to dogs. The definition of hypoallergenic actually is true in this case, but many people hear hypoallergenic and think "that means I will absolutely not be allergic to the dog." which is not always the case.


True Dat. Just check out the thread on "Help I'm allergic to my hypoallergenic dog"


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

This thread keeps going on and on.... The OP is dead set that he is going to get either a Standard Schnauzer or an Irish Terrier. Neither is a common breed. And while not all breeders are created equal, there are not going to be a lot of casual breeders involved. 

And..... Many of the breeders that work with breeds that have managed to keep from becoming trendy or popular are pretty careful about where their dogs end up. Some are probably more anal about it than they need to be. 

Grish..... You commented on a statement I made about convincing a breeder to sell a first time owner one of their dogs. 
But again.... I don't think you are quite sure what you are getting into. You come across as intelligent and articulate. But don't think it is not something breeders have not seen before. 

Many breeders are going to have you fill out an application before they spend a bunch of time talking to you in a serious manner about purchasing one of their puppies. Oh they will talk to you. People LOVE to talk about their dogs. But they are going to want to find out some detailed information before they go to far. Most decent breeders have a written application process. 

So you get this written application..... Very early on, probably right after you fill out your name and contact information and before you get to the part about why you are interested in the particular breed...... You are going to get a certain question. 

That question is going to be..... Have you owned dogs before?

You have two ways to answer that question. You answer it no.... Many breeders are not going to look past that. 

So it may seem like a simple thing to do would be to go ahead and answer yes. But it is not that simple. Because the next statement on the application is going to be.... Please provide names, breed, and sex of the dogs you have owned before, How old were then when they died, what did they die from. 

Followed by a statement like this......Please provide copies of vet records, copies of AKC registrations, and/or other information concerning dogs you have owned in the past. They may want a letter of recommendation from your vet, breeders you have purchased dogs from in the past, pictures of dogs you have owned, etc. 

Is all this a little anal? Maybe.... But it is not about preventing people from purchasing puppies. It is about making sure their puppies go into the right homes. 

The first time owner thing is a BIG hurdle. Can you get past it? Maybe..... But it won't be easy. As I said, I am not a breeder. But I have over the years been involved with breedings. I currently own a dog that will be used in breedings. I have looked through applications. I am also the President of our regional breed club. I have looked over rescue applications. I am not a rescue nazi, I am all about placing dogs.In fact I have been accused of being a little to lenient. But my breed of favor is one that is known for being a very poor choice for first time dog owners. All that being said... Would I place a rescue of our breed with a first timer? I would not say that I never would. But it would have to be the right dog and the right owner. They would have to convince me both in person and on paper that they were willing (not ready because regardless of what they say, they are not ready) to do what they needed to do in order to own the dog. 

I might start with some questions.... I will ask you two.....

Okay lets assume you get the puppy, socialize it, get some good training, exercise it, etc. Everything is going along fine..... Then one day anywhere from ten months of age up to 2 years of age, the dog grabs your shoe, hat, tv remote, etc. You go to retrieve the object and out of nowhere the dog stands its ground refuses, to give it back and is determined about it. Complete with growls, rigid body posture, and showing its teeth.....

What are you going to do about that? 

Next question..... Same scenario...... But the dog takes something of your kids and shows the same behavior.... What are you going to do about that?

Loaded question right? Yes it is.... And those are things that should be gone over with a good trainer long before it happens. And.... Such a scenario can happen with any dog and any breed. But it is MUCH MUCH more likely to happen with the types of breeds we are talking about.....

Many of the qualities (other than looks) that may be attracting you to these dogs, are some of the same qualities of why they do not make a good choice for first time dog owners. 

They can be enjoyable dogs. But they are tough, tenacious, strong willed, strong minded, etc. A herd of grizzly bears could come barging through your front door and either breed would likely meet them head on, completely convinced they had the bears outmatched. 

That kind of mindset is something not to take lightly or for granted....


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

anyone who says small dogs are breakable has obviously never met a Patterdale...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> anyone who says small dogs are breakable has obviously never met a Patterdale...


As Grandaddy always said...... It ain't the size of the dog in the fight.... But the size of the fight in the dog....


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

toblerone said:


> Second Bichons are very good for allergies and seriously one of the happiest dogs you could ever ask for. Excellent with kids and people even with very little socialization. All they want to do is please and when kept in a good puppy cut aren't frou frou at all. Plus since you want a medium dog you might be able to find a puppy too large for show to be an excellent pet, and trust me bichons can play like no tomorrow!


Seems like these traits exist in the whole "Bichon family" as well. 

I can say Wally (Coton) certainly loves to play and does want to do the "right" thing (perhaps too much was his problem). 

Heck, I don't think Wally is frou frou and his coat is as long as it wants to be. He always looks a little...ahem...shaggy - especially after getting up from a nap.


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## meghf (Jul 12, 2009)

I skimmed through most of the posts but this thread has gotten quite long so if I'm repeating something, please forgive me. I can't give you advice on either breed but I think you're getting that from other people. I can only speak to the allergy issue. I know people have mentioned "doodle" breeds and you also mentioned them. I know you said you ruled them out but i just wanted to warn you (in case you change your mind) that some people still have allergic reactions to them. I am pretty allergic to my friend's goldendoodle. It all depends on how much of the poodle hair vs lab/golden fur they inherit and that's not something you really know right away. I also think once you pick out the breed of dog you're going to get, before making a commitment to a breeder, your wife should meet the breed because not all people react the same to the "hypoallergenic" breeds.

One last thing, I know a couple of people have recommended a standard poodle which you said absolutely not to. You don't like the narrow face. For one thing I don't think you should be discounting a dog breed based on looks. You should be picking the breed for you based on temperament. I know the allergies automatically rules out a lot of breeds but you do have a variety to choose from and research and it seems like you won't even give the time of day to certain breeds based on looks. As for the standard poodle, you can leave them with a "beard" they don't have to have a shaved face. I'm attaching a pic of one with a beard (obviously you wouldn't have to keep the coat that long, it's hard to manage).

Good luck with your search!


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

Now that is a poodle I like the looks of - very nice!!! I doubt most people would even realize that is a poodle - looks more like a goldendoodle. Whatever the case, I love the way that poodle looks. It would be worth the time and effort to me, to keep the coat looking like that.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

to the groomers...

Ever had to shave a Schnauzer or an Irish Terrier's face? 

just curious.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> Ok so you are set on the SS but the wife isn't a 100% yet. Please DO stay on this board and let us know how it all washed out.


 Last night was my oldest son's birthday and we told him that he can finally get a dog. My wife was far from set on a SS and I told her and my son to pick out 2-3 dogs they would want and then tell me. My son doesn't know I like SS yet and I want him do to his own research. It'd be interesting to find out what they'll come up with. 



> Interview breeders, LOTS of them. Think of it as getting bids for a construction project. Research and find 4 to 5 reputable SS breeders in your area.... And on the $$ issue don't bitch if you pay 1.5 to 2 k for the dog. If that's to much to spend, find another breed.


 I looked on the Standard Schnauzer Club of America site for the breeders and only found three within a two hour driving distance. I emailed them couple of days ago but only one of them got back to me. Not too many of SS breeders close to me... I do realize that a dog will run me $1500-$2000.



> BUT personally I don't think any good SS breeder worth their salt would sell to someone who was a first time dog owner.


 If that is the case and my final breed selection is a Standard Schnauzer it'll only force me to find a not so reputable breeder... I do hope that the breeder I chose to get my puppy from is evaluating on personal basis and not first time dog owner or not basis.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I don't think you are quite sure what you are getting into... [/qoute] True... I am not sure...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

You are probably going to have an even harder time finding a "not so reputable" SS breeder. The SSCA and breeders are VERY protective of their breed and have done so in order to make the breed very healthy and to make sure there are very little not so reputable breeders who RUIN the breed. I wouldn't go that route just because you are bull-headed to the point of being stupid...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Quote:
> Okay lets assume you get the puppy, socialize it, get some good training, exercise it, etc. Everything is going along fine..... Then one day anywhere from ten months of age up to 2 years of age, the dog grabs your shoe, hat, tv remote, etc. You go to retrieve the object and out of nowhere the dog stands its ground refuses, to give it back and is determined about it. Complete with growls, rigid body posture, and showing its teeth.....
> 
> What are you going to do about that?
> ...


Which just demonstrates that you are NOT ready for this breed.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

meghf said:


> ...your wife should meet the breed because not all people react the same to the "hypoallergenic" breeds.


 I understand the hypoallergenic claims and will definitely have the wife spend time with a breeder to confirm that the allergy is not a problem.



> ...You should be picking the breed for you based on temperament...


 Yeah, I know, but looks still play a big role. In any case I'll have my oldest son and my wife pick a breed or two or three, and convince me that it better suits us than a SS.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

MicheleZ said:


> You are probably going to have an even harder time finding a "not so reputable" SS breeder.


 You'd be surprised... just google "standard schnauzer puppy for sale"...



> I wouldn't go that route just because you are bull-headed to the point of being stupid...


 I wouldn't go that route either unless forced by the over protectiveness of the reputable breeders.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Which just demonstrates that you are NOT ready for this breed.


Please explain what you think would be the right way of acting in that same scenario...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

meg31816 said:


> I find it amusing and aggravating that the OP has an answer for EVERYTHING...


 You and my wife both. 



> ...he said that if he can't get a puppy from a reputable breeder, he will have to go to a not so reputable breeder.


 I said that only if I am 100% set on a breed, but a "reputable" breeder would not sell me a puppy I would consider that route... and the steps would be forst looking for a breeder not associated with the SSCA but still practicing good breeding practices.



> Also OP- What the heck kind of car do you drive that you don't think you can fit a lab or something similar in size in it????


 How comfortable would a medium size femily car be for a longer family trip with a large dog? If I had an SUV the large dog can be in the hatch and not on the back seat. I can fit any dog in my car but it will not be comfortable for the longer rides, that's all.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

meg31816 said:


> Bull-headed to the point of being stupid is right...reminds me of my father.


 LOL... the teeth are starting to come out.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> Please explain what you think would be the right way of acting in that same scenario...


back off a bit and then do an exchange. you give me my shoe, you get this bone. dogs are opportunists. they respond well to reinforcement. when they get the idea that giving up the thing you want is good for them too, they are more likely to happily do it in the future.

you dont have mobile ears, you dont have four legs and a tail...you arent a dog and you cant expect to be able to communicate the way another dog would...so you have to use something you BOTH can understand...positive and negative consequences.

to get a dog to do a behavior more often, reward him. to get him to quit doing something, you make the situation unrewarding.

its pretty simple actually.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Please explain what you think would be the right way of acting in that same scenario...


Zim beat me to it. Exactly what she said. Dominance methods don't work well on any dog, but with these dogs, you'll get yourself into a world of trouble.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

If the dog is acting in a way I wond not want him to act why should I do positive reinforcement??? I would think that by doing positive reinforcement for a bad behaior you encourage the repeat of that bad behavior.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ...they are more likely to happily do it in the future...


 That is exactly what I do not want! A dog "happily" grabbing my remote control and then "happily" growl and show it's teeth at me next time. Playfulness is one thing but I don't think the original situation described playfulness.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

rewards are for GOOD behavior. the behavior you are rewarding is him giving up the thing you want him to. that is a good behavior and if you reward it, he will repeat it. that's how dogs think. that's how you think too...otherwise you wouldnt go to work everday...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> That is exactly what I do not want! A dog "happily" grabbing my remote control and then "happily" growl and show it's teeth at me next time. Playfulness is one thing but I don't think the original situation described playfulness.


happily do the behavior you are rewarding. if you reward the right behavior..


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> rewards are for GOOD behavior.


 Good yes, bad no. The original situation was an example of dog behaving badly...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> happily do the behavior you are rewarding. if you reward the right behavior..


Yes, but originally he behaved badly! By rewarding his good behavior, giving it up, I am encouraging him to repeat the bad behavior for a reward...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Yes, but you reward the GOOD behaviour of the dog giving you what you want. Trading with the dog for high value items reassures the dog that your not just going to take things it values away from it. Forcing it to give things up will actually make the guarding behaviour worse.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> Good yes, bad no. The original situation was an example of dog behaving badly...


yes exactly.

what you are doing when you do the trade is this

the dog will see it as he let go of the thing and got something better. so the next time he has something and you want it, he will be less likely to growl because he understands there is no reason to guard the object he's got...because he understands the possibility of him getting something better.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Yes, but originally he behaved badly! By rewarding his good behavior, giving it up, I am encouraging him to repeat the bad behavior for a reward...


No, dogs do not think this way. He associates the reward with the most recent behaviour - giving you the item.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> Yes, but originally he behaved badly! By rewarding his good behavior, giving it up, I am encouraging him to repeat the bad behavior for a reward...


No.

You're encouraging him to drop whatever is in his mouth on cue.

Dogs don't think ("okay in order to drop this thing, I have to pick it up first, then I can get rewarded for dropping it").

What they think is "whenever I have something in my mouth, and drop it when asked, I get rewarded"

If you want him to leave the item alone in the first place, that's a separate behavior that has to be taught ("good things happen when I leave that thing alone" or "good things happen only when I take that item when asked")


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> No, dogs do not think this way. He associates the reward with the most recent behaviour - giving you the item.


BINGO!

dogs have the attention span of a gnat. they live very much in the moment. and in that moment...he will see himself given something he likes for giving the thing up. giving the thing up would have been the appropriate response you want from him.

in order for a dog to know what not to do...you have to teach them what TO DO. You cant punish a dog who doesnt understand the appropriate behavior...you will either get a robot or a fear aggressive handful...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> a fear aggressive handful...


And with the breeds the OP wants, I'd say this is the more likely result.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> If the dog is acting in a way I wond not want him to act why should I do positive reinforcement??? I would think that by doing positive reinforcement for a bad behaior you encourage the repeat of that bad behavior.


You do this BEFORE this kind of stuff happens. And while I'll support the fact you'd love to have a SS, telling your 5 year old kid to stand their ground against a strong, active dog in their physical prime while the dog is rigidly showing their teeth is stupid, stupid, stupid. Sorry.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> ...Then one day anywhere from ten months of age up to 2 years of age, the dog grabs your shoe, hat, tv remote, etc. You go to retrieve the object and out of nowhere the dog stands its ground refuses, to give it back and is determined about it. Complete with growls, rigid body posture, and showing its teeth...


 You are saying a dog should be rewarded for the above behavior... ridiculous. 

Let's say someone comes up to you and grabs your purse or a phone and then refuses to give it back... you give that person a $20 and he happily returns what he's taken... What would that person do next time he wants a treat($20)?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Yes, but originally he behaved badly! By rewarding his good behavior, giving it up, I am encouraging him to repeat the bad behavior for a reward...


And, you're also encouraging your dog to BRING you found items, which could be your shoe, a kids toy, or something dangerous. The last thing you want is a dog who assumes they will be punished for having something in their mouths, so they grab up something dangerous and take off across the house with it and then in turn bite your childs face because you told your kid to "Stand Up" to the dog


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> If the dog is acting in a way I wond not want him to act why should I do positive reinforcement??? I would think that by doing positive reinforcement for a bad behaior you encourage the repeat of that bad behavior.


You're not rewarding the behavior, you're rewarding an alternate behavior.

It's the same idea as if the dog jumps up on you and you don't want him to, but then you reward him with affection when he sits. You're not rewarding "Jumping first then sitting" - that's too much backwards logic for a dog, only people think like that  - what you're rewarding is the immediate last thing they did - sitting. 

If you wanted to create the chain of jumping then sitting, you'd have to train it as such so that in the dog's mind, jumping then leads to sitting. You have to create that mindset. His mindset instead is attention seeking - so you give him what he wants (attention/greeting) when he's doing what you want (sitting). Then the dog goes "when master is at the front door and I want to greet him, I should sit, and then we can greet."

Same thing here. You're not rewarding "pick up so master can get mad then drop it so I can get rewarded", you're rewarding "drop whatever when master asks" as that's the last thing to get rewarded. 

Teaching him that "master doesn't like you to pick up his remote" is a separate behavior and mindset that has to be "programmed".


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> You are saying a dog should be rewarded for the above behavior... ridiculous.
> 
> Let's say someone comes up to you and grabs your purse or a phone and then refuses to give it back... you give that person a $20 and he happily returns what he's taken... What would that person do next time he wants a treat($20)?


Again, your thinking like a human, not a dog. In the above situation, you trade the item the dog has with a higher value item. The dog does NOT think: "gee, I snarled and growled and got rewarded, I should do this more often". No, he associates the higher value item with dropping what he has. That is what is being rewarded, and that is the behaviour he will increase. Forcing him to give up what he has will only escalate the aggressive behaviour and almost certainly result in you getting bit.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> You are saying a dog should be rewarded for the above behavior... ridiculous.
> 
> Let's say someone comes up to you and grabs your purse or a phone and then refuses to give it back... you give that person a $20 and he happily returns what he's taken... What would that person do next time he wants a treat($20)?


no you back off. like i said in my first response. you back off a bit. take your attention away from the dog. by challenging the dog on the level you are suggesting, you are touching on really strong drives and in certain breeds...terrier types especially...this is a BAD idea. And by paying attention to the behavior..you are feeding it. you wait the dog out..let him calm down and then offer a trade..not try to pick a fight with him...because that's how he's going to see it...and he wont trust you...the kind of body language you talk about is tantamout to a DEATH THREAT to a dog.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

meg31816 said:


> You're not training humans, you're training DOGS. There's a huge difference in thinking, reasoning, body language, mental processing, etc. The fact that you think you can approach this like you would with "workers, a wife and kids" just shows your ignorance on the matter.
> 
> Why are you even arguing with people that HAVE TRAINED DOGS, when you HAVE NOT? That's like if I went to your place of employment and started telling you the right way to do things when I myself have no idea how to do them correctly.


I wanted to see the explanation, which was delievered in the latter posts, at first all I read was "ha ha you are wrong, no doggie for you"


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> You are saying a dog should be rewarded for the above behavior... ridiculous.
> 
> Let's say someone comes up to you and grabs your purse or a phone and then refuses to give it back... you give that person a $20 and he happily returns what he's taken... What would that person do next time he wants a treat($20)?


This is why you do training beforehand, instead of waiting for the dog to do something wrong and then punishing them for it  I played the trade game with ALL of my dogs. Drop the bone, get a treat, and 99% of the time you'll get the bone back. Fade out the treat, and don't spend a bunch of time waving the food in your dogs' face. Just because the food isn't visible, doesn't mean it can't appear. If my dogs get ahold of something they're not supposed to have, I don't have to jump up and get a piece of food to "bribe" them to drop it. It's conditioned into them to drop something when they're told, because I TRAINED them to do it, and don't waste my time getting into physical battles with dogs that are twice as strong as I am.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

meg31816 said:


> And I'm sure you'll reply to this post with another smart ass, slightly snarky reply, ending with an emoticon of course.


There are not enough emoticons to answer you...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> You are saying a dog should be rewarded for the above behavior... ridiculous.
> 
> Let's say someone comes up to you and grabs your purse or a phone and then refuses to give it back... you give that person a $20 and he happily returns what he's taken... What would that person do next time he wants a treat($20)?



Humans and dogs are two different creatures with two different mindsets.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> You do this BEFORE this kind of stuff happens. And while I'll support the fact you'd love to have a SS, telling your 5 year old kid to stand their ground against a strong, active dog in their physical prime while the dog is rigidly showing their teeth is stupid, stupid, stupid. Sorry.


At the point when a dog does not understand his place in the pack I don't think it would make much difference what breed it is.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> This is why you do training beforehand, instead of waiting for the dog to do something wrong and then punishing them for it


 Please read the *ORIGINAL* situation... It was stated that *AFTER* the dog is fully trained he is showing this behavior! By the time the dog is 10 months I'd expect it to understand right and wrong.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

meg31816 said:


> Last two statements just show your inexperience even more lol.


 When did I say I had dog experience... I haven't even read a book on how to train dogs yet... Prior to two weeks ago a dog was out of the question in my house.

After choosing the right breed and a breeder for my puppy I'll start learning everything dog related... now I'm still allowed to make virtual mistakes.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> Please read the *ORIGINAL* situation... It was stated that *AFTER* the dog is fully trained he is showing this behavior! By the time the dog is 10 months I'd expect it to understand right and wrong.



A dog knows what you teach it. Regardless of age.

If you just "expect" him to know not to touch certain things because he was trained at other things - you will be disappointed.

Training is a lifelong process, a dog is never "fully" trained, and dogs will make mistakes, "bad" choices, etc. Dogs are still creatures with their own minds and their own drives, and their view of the world, even when trained with the best of sklil and consistency. All training does is direct those energies, and depending on the level of drive and desire, it can take a LOT of training to direct that energy.

It doesn't stop just because a dog is 10 months old. If you never taught it to leave your stuff alone (and by taught I mean fully proofed in all possible situations - when you're away, when you're there, when he's with the kids, when outside, when on grass, when in all rooms of the house, when in the backyard - and no I'm not being funny with all these situations), then expecting him to just know might be just setting yourself up for disappointment.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> Please read the *ORIGINAL* situation... It was stated that *AFTER* the dog is fully trained he is showing this behavior! By the time the dog is 10 months I'd expect it to understand right and wrong.



a dog can never understand right and wrong. they are kind of like human toddlers mentally. and the way to approach them is somewhat similar to the way you deal with a toddler.

and really...seriously...you want to teach your son to communicate death threats to your dog...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ...you want to teach your son to communicate death threats to your dog...


How did you come up with "death threats"?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

The behaviour you are describing using on a dog in this situation is the equivelent of a death threat to a dog.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no you back off. like i said in my first response. you back off a bit. take your attention away from the dog. by challenging the dog on the level you are suggesting, you are touching on really strong drives and in certain breeds...terrier types especially...this is a BAD idea. And by paying attention to the behavior..you are feeding it. you wait the dog out..let him calm down and then offer a trade..not try to pick a fight with him...because that's how he's going to see it...and he wont trust you...the kind of body language you talk about is tantamout to a DEATH THREAT to a dog.


see this post^^^


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

KBLover said:


> If you just "expect" him to know not to touch certain things because he was trained at other things - you will be disappointed.


 I'm sure I'll have a few disappointments along the way, but a smart dog should instinctually know right and wrong after he's been trained to a certain degree. An aggressive behavior, as was described, should not all of a sudden appear.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Have you read the any of the posts so far? Dogs do not instinctually know right and wrong, they have no concept of right and wrong. They are opportunists. They do what works for them, don't do what doesn't work. It's your job as a trainer to make the things you want them to do rewarding, and the undesirable behaviour unrewarding. And no, the above behaviour shouldn't just appear, but many dog owners, especially first time dog owners don't recognize the early signs, until it reaches the above scenario. I'm sorry, but your ignorance of dog behaviour and your refusal to listen to people with huge amounts of dog training experience just astounds me.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> I'm sure I'll have a few disappointments along the way, but a smart dog should instinctually know right and wrong after he's been trained to a certain degree. An aggressive behavior, as was described, *should not all of a sudden appear.*


sometimes they do. in reality the first thing you should do when a dog displays aggression is call the vet and schedule an appointment. aggression often has medical causes and that should be addressed FIRST.

in dog safety courses for kids there is a reason they teach them to "be a tree". your first bodily response to aggressive posturing should be to disengage. that is you not acknowledging their challenge..dismissing it. communicating both confidence and the fact that this threat of theirs doesnt scare you. ignore them. and wait them out. then readdress the issue from a standpoint of basic training. ive done a lot of training with aggressive dogs...they respond very well to compromise.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> The behaviour you are describing using on a dog in this situation is the equivelent of a death threat to a dog.


All right... maybe I've been watching too much of Dog Whisperer... but...

After two years with me a dog should know his place in the family pack, below everyone else. If he starts to show aggressive behavior it has to be firmly adressed right away.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> All right... maybe I've been watching too much of Dog Whisperer... but...
> 
> After two years with me a dog should know his place in the family pack, below everyone else. If he starts to show aggressive behavior it has to be firmly adressed right away.


yes you have been watching too much DW.

and no it should not be *firmly* addressed. it should be SWIFTLY addressed by a vet first and then a pro second.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I'm sorry, but your ignorance of dog behaviour and your refusal to listen to people with huge amounts of dog training experience just astounds me.


 I am listening and I am also trying to understand the reasoning, I am not refusing anything.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> sometimes they do. in reality the first thing you should do when a dog displays aggression is call the vet and schedule an appointment. aggression often has medical causes and that should be addressed FIRST.


 THAT should've been the right answer.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> I'm sure I'll have a few disappointments along the way, but a smart dog should instinctually know right and wrong after he's been trained to a certain degree. An aggressive behavior, as was described, should not all of a sudden appear.


Depends on the dog's personality and the stimulus that triggered it. If the dog is prone to resource guarding in his temperament, then he will appear to "suddenly" be aggressive in that situation, but the dog all along had that in him, the situation just arrived to trigger it.

And training can't be instinct. If it was, it wouldn't need to be trained/learned. The definition of instinct is something that's known without having to be learned. All training is learned, even if the behavior is instinctive. Even if a dog picks things up on his own, it's still learned based on what he observes (patterns, routines, etc), it's just learned without direct human intervention (and that has limits).


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> THAT should've been the right answer.


no. the right answer in the immediate situation...back off, call the vet and then offer the dog a trade. the last two are interchangeable. the first one is not.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ...in dog safety courses for kids there is a reason they teach them to "be a tree"...


 That's what I tought my kinds about agressive strange dog, but an obedient dog that lives with me in my house for over a year is a little different.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no. the right answer in the immediate situation...back off, call the vet and then offer the dog a trade. the last two are interchangeable. the first one is not.


All right, fine, I think we are getting into too many exact details. 

I'm not ready to argue to the death that I am right before I read up on dogs. I can only go as far as I have.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> That's what I tought my kinds about agressive strange dog, but an obedient dog that lives with me in my house for over a year is a little different.


Aggression is aggression, no matter the dog.

If the family dog is being aggressive, that doesn't mean you should head long charge into battle with him or dare him to back up his threats (because he just might, depending - especially if he's hurting and feels threatened - wanna talk instinct? Survival is #1 on the list and if he's hurt and feels his survival is threatened, all else drops in list, family, pack, whatever)

So, yes, be a tree. Communicate that you mean him no harm with his language (body language), so he has a higher chance of understanding. In fact, you should be able to "reason" with the family dog easier than a strange dog that doesn't know you and has no reason to regard you as anything in his life.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> That's what I tought my kinds about agressive strange dog, but an obedient dog that lives with me in my house for over a year is a little different.


its actually not any different at all. ive worked with family dogs who out of nowhere got aggressive. 

there are two schools of thought in any treatment of anything really..

the first is to treat the symptoms.

the second is to treat the actual problem. 

if you only treat the symptoms...you still have the problem. aggressive behavior is a symptom. to challenge it runs the risk of making it worse. to step back, assess the situation and manage the problem until the real problem has been identified and treated is to DECREASE the risk of a bite.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

KBLover said:


> ...it's still learned based on what he observes (patterns, routines, etc), it's just learned without direct human intervention (and that has limits).


 This describes what I meant by mentioning instincts


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ...the first is to treat the symptoms.
> 
> the second is to treat the actual problem.
> 
> if you only treat the symptoms...you still have the problem. aggressive behavior is a symptom. to challenge it runs the risk of making it worse. to step back, assess the situation and manage the problem until the real problem has been identified and treated is to DECREASE the risk of a bite.


You still have to address the symptom first and then treat the actual problem

I agree that the problem has to be identified.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> You still have to address the symptom first and then treat the actual problem


yes. and if you understood the nature of canine aggression you'd know that its a self reinforcing behavior. the more they do it, the more inclined they will be not only to do it...but to escalate it. 

by challenging the dog while he is being aggressive...*you are giving him THE PERFECT EXCUSE to be aggressive*. in effect..by challenging him you are REWARDING HIS AGGRESSION. 

by stepping away you are taking away his reward...that being your attention and his reason to continue aggressing.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> by challenging the dog while he is being aggressive...*you are giving him THE PERFECT EXCUSE to be aggressive*. in effect..by challenging him you are REWARDING HIS AGGRESSION.
> 
> by stepping away you are taking away his reward...that being your attention and his reason to continue aggressing.


Wow... interesting point of view... I have not thought about it this way...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Funny that we are discussing sudden dog aggression here while there is another post on a schnauzer, even though a mini, on exactly this problem  http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/71513-new-here-my-dog.html


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Grish said:


> I'm sure I'll have a few disappointments along the way, but a smart dog should instinctually know right and wrong after he's been trained to a certain degree. An aggressive behavior, as was described, should not all of a sudden appear.


had to jump in here, yes is absolutely can just all of a sudden appear esp to someone who doesn't know how to read dogs. The warning signs are usually there all along but first time owners are typically to ignorant to see them. Until the bite happens.

The nicest family dog in the world will bite if provoked enough. If you push the dog it will fight back. Terriers are much more inclined to do so. They don't stand down in the face of a larger opponent. People have been saying that again and again and yet you don't seem to get it. 

Yes you are allowed to make virtual mistakes. Please feel free to do so and use this board. But you do need to open your mind a little and see that people are really trying to help you. Actually they want to help your future dog. I really don't want to see another dog sent to the pound or PTS due to owner ignorance. 

Do understand that dogs think like canines and humans think more like monkeys. Totally different. Read "The Other End of the Leash" to learn more how this is true. 

My dog will allow my daughter (3yo) to take her favorite thing in the world (bully stick) from her mouth b/c I have trained "give" so often. My dog STILL grabs things and races around the house playing Keep Away. It is her FAVORITE dog on dog game. So it's fun with people too. The remote, my wallet, a sock, you name it. She comes to me happily when I call her and drops the object b/c she knows that she will get a treat, a higher value object instead. And because I train the recall EVERY SINGLE DAY. I no longer even have to have the treat in my hand to do this. But often my husband does. Often he's going to have to go to the fridge and crinkle the cheese wrapper to get her to come to him. She's smart.

If my dog EVER stood her ground and growled at me I know that is a warning to heed. I would absolutely back down and reassess the situation to see why she felt threatened. A growler is actually a good dog, they are giving you a fair warning before they bite. A dog who is silent when they bite means business. But then they have already bitten you and it's too late. Again there would have been loads of signs that the dog was going to bite, but the first time owner usually never sees them. But growling at you, that's a very obvious sign.

One of my previous dogs was rehomed to me b/c she was a known fear biter and had bite and broken skin on 2 occassions. I rehabbed her sucessfully and she never bite anyone again. I had her for 6 years. She did bite me in the very end, but she did so b/c she was in terrible pain and that was how she showed it.

On the subject; my other previous dog was a mutt who was the best dog ever. He also tried to bite the vet tech and the vet b/c he was in a great deal of pain. It was shocking to see this dog, who had previously allowed a toddler (not my child) to drag his body all over the floor turn on the vet. A vet he loved and had seen for years and played with. 

So there are many times when your dog will stand his ground and growl at you and you should not ever push them. I gave 2 examples above. 

I do not understan d how you can say that you do not want a mutt in your house b/c you want to know the dogs lineage and THEN say that if pushed you would buy a dog from an less than reputable breeder. Isn't it one and the same? You still end up with a dog you know little about.

FWIW the mutt was a hundred times a better dog than the Standard Schnauzer and I'd take a litter of little Charlie mutt dogs any day. Not that I don't love my SS girl, but she's a million times more difficult than my mutt. And there is nothing wrong with my SS, she is just a terrier. So it's the terrierness that I find so difficult.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> ...Terriers are much more inclined to do so. They don't stand down in the face of a larger opponent. People have been saying that again and again and yet you don't seem to get it.


 I may be a little slow, but I'll get there.  



> Read "The Other End of the Leash" to learn more how this is true.


 I will read all of the suggested books prior to getting a dog.



> I do not understand how you can say that you do not want a mutt in your house b/c you want to know the dogs lineage and THEN say that if pushed you would buy a dog from an less than reputable breeder. Isn't it one and the same? You still end up with a dog you know little about.


 When I say a less than reputable, I mean the one still practicing good breeding but not associated with the SSCA. I still would not get one from a puppy mill. I may endup shipping one from Europe before going to a puppy mill.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> ...there would have been loads of signs that the dog was going to bite, but the first time owner usually never sees them. But growling at you, that's a very obvious sign....


 I am a pretty good people reader... I am pretty sure I'll be able to become a good dog reader as well, hopefully sooner rather than latter.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Please read the *ORIGINAL* situation... It was stated that *AFTER* the dog is fully trained he is showing this behavior! By the time the dog is 10 months I'd expect it to understand right and wrong.


The teeth ARE coming out 
And I don't expect a 10 month old dog to be fully trained, jme. It would be like asking a 16 year old teenager to have the common sense and experience of most 45 year olds. JMO


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> You still have to address the symptom first and then treat the actual problem
> 
> I agree that the problem has to be identified.


True that. It can also be inherited, which is why I would suggest to anyone looking for a puppy to spend some time with the mother dog as well. If mom is a bag of nerves, or is overly sharp, the puppies might have that "attitude" as well. When I picked out a german shepherd breeder, I was lucky enough to meet both parents, and neither dog was overly sharp (nor were they wimps). The mother was a confident, happy dog, and the litter was full of confident, happy puppies, which suited the role of a family pet. (Had I been looking for a top schutzhund puppy, I probably would have chose the sharpest puppy in the batch!)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There's a few issues here. The first is dogs are not moral creatures. They don't learn 'right' and 'wrong'. It is foolish to think you can teach your dog right from wrong. Remember dogs are animals first and foremost, they don't follow our rules. You can't reason through the situations in ways that a human would. Dogs don't think that way. Also no matter how long you've had a dog they're still animals. We will never 100% understand them and they are never 100% trustworthy. Heck, Mia growled at me the other day. Took me completely aback because she's never done anything like that towards me before. It would have been pointless to start posturing to her at that moment. I stepped back and tried to figure out the cues she had given off that she was uncomfortable (sure enough there were some). She wasn't being aggressive in the slightest, she was afraid. Posturing would have done nothing but make her MORE afraid. 

Standing up in the manner you suggest to a dog that is either fearful or harder tempered WILL get you bit. I say this from experience. My first personal dog (I had other dogs growing up) was a sheltie named Nikki. Shelties are known as soft dogs but Nikki was not, she was nothing like our others had been. She was a big time resource guarder and would not back down from a fight over something she wanted with either the people or the other dogs. I was really stupid when I got her. I did alpha rolling, spanking, dominance, aggressive posturing and all that bull. I remember wrestling something out of her mouth once, she turned around and nailed me pretty good. I was asking for it. As we both got older and I started figuring dogs out on my own I realized positive reinforcement works best for these kinds of situations. I taught her a 'drop it' with no problem. Never once had to stick my hands in her mouth again because if I asked, she'd drop it on a dime. My current dogs are much softer in temperament although Mia is quite a challenge when it comes to energy level and prey drive lol.

Also, forget the pack and alpha drivel. Yes you want to be a leader but you don't need to lead by force. Dogs are not wolves and wolves aren't even as rigid as dominance/pack theory makes them out to be. We have 5 dogs and I couldn't even begin to tell you their 'rankings' because really there are none.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Also, forget the pack and alpha drivel. Yes you want to be a leader but you don't need to lead by force. Dogs are not wolves and wolves aren't even as rigid as dominance/pack theory makes them out to be. We have 5 dogs and I couldn't even begin to tell you their 'rankings' because really there are none.


 It does not make a difference what the pack order is within your 5 dogs as long as you the leader of that pack and they understand it. Isn't that the idea of the pack thing?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it depends on what you mean by leader. I don't need to be 'alpha' to my dogs. I do need to set rules and boundaries for them and train them to behave in ways which I deem appropriate.

The problem with terms like 'alpha' and 'pack' is people start getting too into the 'act like a wolf' mentality. Dogs aren't wolves and dogs understand we're not dogs too. There's no need to be 'correcting' the dog as if we were another dog. Most people I meet who buy into the pack and alpha mentality are into things like alpha rolling, dominance, etc which really are not going to help you lead your dog at all, they're just going to scare your dog. As someone said earlier you end up with a robot dog or a dog that is fear reactive a lot of times. My sheltie ended up very reactive but after changing to more suitable methods she was a much safer animal. Her reactivity was purely my fault.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> The problem with terms like 'alpha' and 'pack' is people start getting too into the 'act like a wolf' mentality. Dogs aren't wolves and dogs understand we're not dogs too. There's no need to be 'correcting' the dog as if we were another dog. Most people I meet who buy into the pack and alpha mentality are into things like alpha rolling, dominance, etc which really are not going to help you lead your dog at all, they're just going to scare your dog. As someone said earlier you end up with a robot dog or a dog that is fear reactive a lot of times. My sheltie ended up very reactive but after changing to more suitable methods she was a much safer animal. Her reactivity was purely my fault.


I'll be sure to make use of some of the methods of different schools of thought, but I won't be sticking completely to one. There has to be flexibility.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I think it depends on what you mean by leader. I don't need to be 'alpha' to my dogs. I do need to set rules and boundaries for them and train them to behave in ways which I deem appropriate.
> 
> The problem with terms like 'alpha' and 'pack' is people start getting too into the 'act like a wolf' mentality. Dogs aren't wolves and dogs understand we're not dogs too. There's no need to be 'correcting' the dog as if we were another dog. Most people I meet who buy into the pack and alpha mentality are into things like alpha rolling, dominance, etc which really are not going to help you lead your dog at all, they're just going to scare your dog. As someone said earlier you end up with a robot dog or a dog that is fear reactive a lot of times. My sheltie ended up very reactive but after changing to more suitable methods she was a much safer animal. Her reactivity was purely my fault.


I couldn't agree more. "Alpha" in itself isn't a horrible term, but like you said, there's such a stigma with the word I rarely use it. I think of a good leader as someone who is able to keep their wits about them no matter what is going on, and is confident enough to NOT have to resort to force. A simple look from me will stop all 3 of my dogs in their tracks if they're about to do something they shouldn't. If you build a relationship based on mutual respect and trust, you won't have to resort to posturing, stare-downs, etc. If someone wants to compare dogs and humans, the whole "alpha" thing is equivalant to having a boss who comes in one day in a great mood, loving life, is great to all his employees and gives everyone a raise because they're doing such a great job. The very next day they storm into the office, yell at anyone they see, and spend their whole day "Staring Down" anyone who MIGHT make a mistake. A good boss is level headed, easy to get along with, respects his employees but also demands that respect back...


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> yes. and if you understood the nature of canine aggression you'd know that its a self reinforcing behavior. the more they do it, the more inclined they will be not only to do it...but to escalate it.
> 
> by challenging the dog while he is being aggressive...*you are giving him THE PERFECT EXCUSE to be aggressive*. in effect..by challenging him you are REWARDING HIS AGGRESSION.
> 
> by stepping away you are taking away his reward...that being your attention and his reason to continue aggressing.


Depends, if his aggression was aimed at getting you to leave him alone and step away, and you leave him alone and step away, you just rewarded it -big time-... that success is very self reinforcing. lack of success is not. Might as well give the dog a click and a treat for aggression.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> It does not make a difference what the pack order is within your 5 dogs as long as you the leader of that pack and they understand it. Isn't that the idea of the pack thing?


It is, but think about it like this:

If Laurelin couldn't tell between all the dogs, which supposedly use this system for their social interactions, which one was 'alpha' and it seems they have no 'alpha' how would it work for a non-dog trying to use a dog's system when the dog's don't even seem to use the system?

The pack theory isn't just humans then the dogs all jumbled up. It's humans and then each dog in it's own order. So, say, Grish is at the top then all your dogs also rank and order themselves. Not just Grish, then "all the dogs".

Also, at least with CM, he often talks about going after the dog in charge when asserting dominance (again, because all the dogs would rank themselves in this system). How would Laurelin do that when the dogs don't have a "alpha" she could go after and put in place to make all the other dogs fall in line?

This isn't to say the idea is pure crap (the truth is probably somewhere between pure crap and pure correct), but there's ways to get it done without going down that road.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> to the groomers...
> 
> Ever had to shave a Schnauzer or an Irish Terrier's face?
> 
> just curious.


Schauzer without a beard.

Doesn't look too unpoodle like.. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZPzwZ4b0cg


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Depends, if his aggression was aimed at getting you to leave him alone and step away, and you leave him alone and step away, you just rewarded it -big time-... that success is very self reinforcing. lack of success is not. Might as well give the dog a click and a treat for aggression.


no. that just dictates a change in the manner in which you step back. 

safety first. especially in a house with kids.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

TxRider said:


> Depends, if his aggression was aimed at getting you to leave him alone and step away, and you leave him alone and step away, you just rewarded it -big time-... that success is very self reinforcing. lack of success is not. Might as well give the dog a click and a treat for aggression.


Very true.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Depends on the dog's personality and the stimulus that triggered it. If the dog is prone to resource guarding in his temperament, then he will appear to "suddenly" be aggressive in that situation, but the dog all along had that in him, the situation just arrived to trigger it.


I think it only appears to be sudden because the humans around the dog were oblivious to any previous signals before a growl was used, and inadvertently allowed those previous signals to be self reinforced with success in the dogs mind.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> That's what I tought my kinds about agressive strange dog, but an obedient dog that lives with me in my house for over a year is a little different.


Not really.

Dogs are opportunistic. They will experiment with behaviors.

Many time owners do not even notice or realize the dog is displaying a guarding behavior over a possession until it has escalated to aggression when in reality it has been present and escalating for some time.

The dog started with just a posture, a look, that to a dog means back off, that human is oblivious to. It succeeded, or at least to the dog it did, the human might have just been walking past the dog, but to the dog it was reinforced, it likely escalated through 3-4 stages of behavior before a growl was ever given.

You could take many dogs, give them a bowl of food, reach slowly towards it and jerk back when they stop eating and give you a look, and have them escalating to growling and biting at you in just a couple of minutes if you persist. Easy as clicker training.

You interact and train a dog it's whole life. It's not something you do for a year and your finished.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I couldn't agree more. "Alpha" in itself isn't a horrible term, but like you said, there's such a stigma with the word I rarely use it. I think of a good leader as someone who is able to keep their wits about them no matter what is going on, and is confident enough to NOT have to resort to force. A simple look from me will stop all 3 of my dogs in their tracks if they're about to do something they shouldn't. If you build a relationship based on mutual respect and trust, you won't have to resort to posturing, stare-downs, etc. If someone wants to compare dogs and humans, the whole "alpha" thing is equivalant to having a boss who comes in one day in a great mood, loving life, is great to all his employees and gives everyone a raise because they're doing such a great job. The very next day they storm into the office, yell at anyone they see, and spend their whole day "Staring Down" anyone who MIGHT make a mistake. A good boss is level headed, easy to get along with, respects his employees but also demands that respect back...


Yup forget about alpha and pack.

Your simply bringing an opportunistic carnivorous predator with social cooperative behaviors and abilities into your home.

It will explore it's limits, it will try to manipulate, it's up to you to read it and be smarter than the dog.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Schauzer without a beard.
> 
> Doesn't look too unpoodle like..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZPzwZ4b0cg


I have never even imagined a Schnauzer without a beard. I quite like it! Very puppy-like.

Hey, Grish, why is a Schnauzer the perfect dog for your family?


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> ...I think of a good leader as someone who is able to keep their wits about them no matter what is going on, and is confident enough to NOT have to resort to force. A simple look from me will stop all 3 of my dogs in their tracks if they're about to do something they shouldn't. If you build a relationship based on mutual respect and trust, you won't have to resort to posturing, stare-downs, etc....


 This matches my idea of a leader


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

KBLover said:


> ...If Laurelin couldn't tell between all the dogs, which supposedly use this system for their social interactions, which one was 'alpha' and it seems they have no 'alpha' how would it work for a non-dog trying to use a dog's system when the dog's don't even seem to use the system?...


 The key to what you are saying is SEEM... the dogs do know the order if you can't SEEM to understand the order doesn't mean they don't have it... got to be more observant.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

TxRider said:


> Schauzer without a beard.
> 
> Doesn't look too unpoodle like..
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZPzwZ4b0cg


Hillarious )))))))))))))))))))))))    ROFL


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

TxRider said:


> I think it only appears to be sudden because the humans around the dog were oblivious to any previous signals before a growl was used, and inadvertently allowed those previous signals to be self reinforced with success in the dogs mind.


So, basically we established that noone knows what's happening unless seing it in person... and no one way is better than the other.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Grish, you can quote multiple posts in a single reply, which will keep the length of this thread slightly more manageable.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Grish said:


> So, basically we established that noone knows what's happening unless seing it in person... and no one way is better than the other.


no

we are establishing that context is everything in dog training.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Hillarious )))))))))))))))))))))))    ROFL


And a poodle with a schnauzer beard.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/images/2009/05/27/poodle.jpg

I wouldn't discount a standard poodle. Smart smart dogs......


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> Hey, Grish, why is a Schnauzer the perfect dog for your family?


Because his wife doesn't like them and his kids will be terrified of it by the time it reaches 2 years old but Grish and his bestest buddy will be cozy in their bachelor apartment (kidding! couldn't resist) lol.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no
> 
> we are establishing that context is everything in dog training.


Context that an inexperienced owner almost never is aware of or able to discern.

The way I see it Grish is going to get whatever dog he wants to.

Regardless of whether people think he is setting himself up to fail, the best people can likely do is make sure he gets the best advice for possible success.

Research breeders.

Meet and interact with this breed at a breeder or breed club or whatever.

Research professional training in your area, choose wisely, use that resource. Someone to personally educate you to deal with your dog. See if your chosen breeder has a recommendation for one.

I have no doubt Grish could succeed if he applies himself, gets himself educated and follows through well. At least it will improve the odds enormously.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Grish said:


> The key to what you are saying is SEEM... the dogs do know the order if you can't SEEM to understand the order doesn't mean they don't have it... got to be more observant.


Honestly I think the idea that dogs rank themselves is silly. I can observe interactions and see which dog is being dominant in that particular interaction but in the next interaction it might change. 

Dogs in the wild don't form strict packs. There is no evidence that pet dogs do either. Why use a method that has practically no real meaning?


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

I think the best way to describe a schnauzer is self-interested, stubborn and challenging. A schnauzer will always be "asking" you "What's in it for me?", and if the reward is not good enough, good luck getting it to do what you want. With a dog like a spaniel, or poodle or golden, they are always asking "What do you want me to do?". Those dogs want to PLEASE you. Schnauzers, and terriers in general, could care less what you want them to do, UNLESS there's a freaking big reward for doing so.
If my poodle were to have an item that he's not allowed to have, and I stood my ground, the likelihood of him giving it up is about 50/50. The likelihood of his reacting aggressively to me is pretty much zero. If my dog were a schnauzer and I stood my ground, the likelihood of him giving it up is zero. The likelihood of his reacting aggressively is about 100%. 

That's why they are not recommended for first time dog owners. They are pains in the ASS! Training them is FRUSTRATING and on-going. If you expect a schnauzer to be fully trained at 10 months, forget it. It will need continuous training for its entire life and will challenge you til the day it dies. 

From what you've posted, I really do not think you would like a schnauzer.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I had to fix this. 



Locke said:


> With a dog like a spaniel (*unless its Mia*), or poodle or golden, they are always asking "What do you want me to do?".


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Grish said:


> The key to what you are saying is SEEM... the dogs do know the order if you can't SEEM to understand the order doesn't mean they don't have it... got to be more observant.



That doesn't mean they have an order.

If observation shows that no dog constantly takes control of any situation - then what does that observation say? I mean, sure Laurelin might need to be more observant to decipher an order, but the situations presented in pack-theory would be obvious. Dogs demanding they eat first instead of the other dogs, going out of doors first, etc.

At best, it would say it's very situational (which goes against the theory as pack theory is absolute-in-all-situations ranking), at worst, it would say that it doesn't exist and was just random which dog did what first, etc.

Dogs can "Seem" to have an order, but really not. They can "seem" to have no order, but really do. 

To me, it's easier just to take behavior, reward what you like, punish what you don't and move on.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Honestly I think the idea that dogs rank themselves is silly. I can observe interactions and see which dog is being dominant in that particular interaction but in the next interaction it might change.
> 
> Dogs in the wild don't form strict packs. There is no evidence that pet dogs do either. Why use a method that has practically no real meaning?


Very much agreed.

While I like Cesar Milan, I am not a fan of the whole "I must be pack leader" phooey. I control mostly everything my dogs do (when they get fed, when they go out, what toys they can have, when they go to bed, etc) That in itself should establish who's "in charge".


haha Laurelin, yes, Mia is an exception to the rule


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> The key to what you are saying is SEEM... the dogs do know the order if you can't SEEM to understand the order doesn't mean they don't have it... got to be more observant.


Not really.

Dogs just know who they can get away with a behavior with and who they can't. Some push it and experiment with people more than others.

It isn't I'm lower in order than you. I'll defer to you in everything in my life.

The dog might defer to you over toys, but not food, maybe over food, but not exiting the front door, maybe over the front door, but not over the place on the sofa, maybe over a place on the sofa but not over attention. And they will figure this out uniquely with each human in the family.

Dogs seek resources, things or activities they value, and they learn if they can get that resource or not by performing a behavior, and they learn it is different with each human.

The dogs you are looking at are smart, stubborn, and pushy about doing so.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Locke said:


> I think the best way to describe a schnauzer is self-interested, stubborn and challenging. A schnauzer will always be "asking" you "What's in it for me?", and if the reward is not good enough, good luck getting it to do what you want. With a dog like a spaniel, or poodle or golden, they are always asking "What do you want me to do?". Those dogs want to PLEASE you. Schnauzers, and terriers in general, could care less what you want them to do, UNLESS there's a freaking big reward for doing so.


A lot of that is the individual dog, and how it's character was formed as it grew up as well.

I have two GSD's. 

One is very smart, very driven, and very much a "what's in it for me?" dog. Unless she sees a clear reward, and it's valuable enough, she sees no reason to do something that isn't self reinforcing. Quite frustrating.

The other GSD is the most "what do you want me to do?" dog I have ever owned. Quite a sweet dog.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

TxRider said:


> A lot of that is the individual dog, and how it's character was formed as it grew up as well.


Yes, individual temperament is a factor, but the breed in general is far more likely to be a "What's in it for me?" type, than a "what do you want me to do?" type. I have yet to meet a schnauzer that lives to please its owner.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> The teeth ARE coming out
> And I don't expect a 10 month old dog to be fully trained, jme. It would be like asking a 16 year old teenager to have the common sense and experience of most 45 year olds. JMO


A 10 month old SS is not a fully trained and mature dog. Try 3-5yo.

I have put so much more time into training this standard schnauzer than I ever did for my mutt. If I had placed as much training into my mutt as I have this schnauzer I would have easily had my mutt titled in obedience, agility, I'd have my CGC, and Therapy dog certificates and god knows only what else. I only had to take that mutt to 1 obedience class, and he was pretty much trained for life. The Schnauzer is only 9 mo and I've taken her to puppy socialization classes, 1 basic obed class and 1 intermediate obed class. We've passed all of them and will start an into to agility class next week (I hope, if the class fills) And she's no where near that dog as at this age. She's not a bad dog, she's just a terrier. It takes a lot more time and effort to train the terrier. And I am not a total newbie.


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## HayleyMarie (Dec 22, 2008)

NRB said:


> A 10 month old SS is not a fully trained and mature dog. Try 3-5yo.
> 
> I have put so much more time into training this standard schnauzer than I ever did for my mutt. If I had placed as much training into my mutt as I have this schnauzer I would have easily had my mutt titled in obedience, agility, I'd have my CGC, and Therapy dog certificates and god knows only what else. I only had to take that mutt to 1 obedience class, and he was pretty much trained for life. The Schnauzer is only 9 mo and I've taken her to puppy socialization classes, 1 basic obed class and 1 intermediate obed class. We've passed all of them and will start an into to agility class next week (I hope, if the class fills) And she's no where near that dog as at this age. She's not a bad dog, she's just a terrier. It takes a lot more time and effort to train the terrier. And I am not a total newbie.


I have been reading this thread from start to finish and I have to agree with you, although I have not owned a SS. I have owned many terriers and I have to say all of them have been a "whats in it for me?" dog. They are stubborn and pig headed and will try to get their way without doing what is asked of them. Alot of terriers are snarky and will tell you "No" alot. I find that they can be short tempered when it comes to children. And personally I would not recommend a terrier to a person whos looking into getting their first dog.

I have owned Westies and Scotties and somtimes their crazy stubborn attitudes are hard to deal with. And they are alot softer than the SS. So I cannot imagine dealing with a stubborn crazy SS. LOL.. Now that would be fun!


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Locke said:


> Yes, individual temperament is a factor, but the breed in general is far more likely to be a "What's in it for me?" type, than a "what do you want me to do?" type. I have yet to meet a schnauzer that lives to please its owner.


I think of it like this:

Schnauzers are bred to work independant from human aid. So they never look to the human for direction. They are bred to kill rats and they don't need to be told how to do it, nor do they think. They just kill rats. They are independant by breeding. They could care less how you the human thinks or feels about it. They will never look to you for direction. 

A Shepherd dog on the other hand, works WITH human and looks to the human for directions. They WANT to please the human. When hiking with my Australian Shepherds of leash they would be out in front of me on the trail, and maybe get a good distance away but they ALWAYS turned their heads, looked me in the eye as if to say "You coming" You want me to come back? You want me to wait? Are we turning this way or that?" They always gave me eye contact.

The Schnauzer, no eye contact, no checking in. Take her to a hike, let her off leash and you'll never see her again. She's brave, bold, stubborn and doesn't need the human. 

SO you have to train and train the Schnauzer (or any other terrier) to refer to you for direction. It takes ages b/c you are going against centuries of breeding.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

NRB said:


> I think of it like this:
> 
> Schnauzers are bred to work independant from human aid. So they never look to the human for direction. They are bred to kill rats and they don't need to be told how to do it, nor do they think. They just kill rats. They are independant by breeding. They could care less how you the human thinks or feels about it. They will never look to you for direction.
> 
> ...


Awesome post. Thank you for explaining.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Grish, you can quote multiple posts in a single reply, which will keep the length of this thread slightly more manageable.


Will do.




zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> we are establishing that context is everything in dog training.


Which is pretty much exactly what I said.



TxRider said:


> And a poodle with a schnauzer beard.


Nah... still has the poodle head cut. But now that I've given selection rights to my son and wife, still with my approval, I have no idea what they'll come up with. 



MicheleZ said:


> Because his wife doesn't like them and his kids will be terrified of it by the time it reaches 2 years old but Grish and his bestest buddy will be cozy in their bachelor apartment (kidding! couldn't resist) lol.


I'll answer the original question in more details... and ignore all this growling. 



TxRider said:


> Research breeders.
> 
> Meet and interact with this breed at a breeder or breed club or whatever.
> 
> ...


 I'll do the above, it'll improve the dog's odds of surviving...    (sorry for the dark humor, but you people seem to care more about dogs than people)


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Hey, Grish, why is a Schnauzer the perfect dog for your family?


I guess you mean besides the look. 

This info bits are taken from the dogbreedinfo.com

They are lively, but not restless if provided with enough exercise.
Bright, intelligent, and playful.
This breed has a high learning rate.
The wiry coat is reasonably easy to look after
They have no doggie odor and shed little to no hair.



Laurelin said:


> Honestly I think the idea that dogs rank themselves is silly.


Apparently difference of opinions on how dogs are is very wide. Some say packs other say not.... Who can trusty person believe? 
In any case, I like the pack idea, makes sense to me.



Locke said:


> I think the best way to describe a schnauzer is self-interested, stubborn and challenging....
> ...
> From what you've posted, I really do not think you would like a schnauzer.


I like the description, reminds me of me ))))))))))

At this point I gave dog selection rights to my son and my wife...  We'll see what happens...


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

NRB;750377
A Shepherd dog on the other hand said:


> This reminds me of Auz. He will literally go in front of me and do the turn around to look for where I'm at. If I stop, he comes to me. If I keep walking, he turns and goes ahead again. A good shepherd is known to be "intelligently disobedient", and the few times Auz has done this, he's proven himself right. Before we got our barn cat population livetrapped, spayed/neutered and released, there was a litter or two of kittens born every spring. 2 years ago I took Auz with me to use his incredible nose to help me find the kittens, so they could be handled and adopted out. I kept bringing him into the empty stall (where I figured the kittens were; I'd seen the mother cat hanging around in there an awful lot), and he kept bulking, would NOT go in. I kept trying to force him, and he would run out, go around the other side of the barn and start snooping around the haybales. I started getting pissed because he wasn't doing what *I* thought should be done. I can still visualize him doing this...he found a certain spot in the hay, stared at it, looked at me, then back at the spot and laid down. I got the flashlight and voila--hidden WAY behind some of the bales in a perfect bowl-shaped nest were 5 baby kittens hissing at us with all their might
> That same litter the mother lost her nerve and moved them. She had them scattered all over the barn. Auz found each and every one of them for me. At one point he was in the stall, looked up into the rafters and barked. I climbed up into the rafters, looked down, and within a few seconds located 2 of the babies in an empty feeder, stacked way up high above a bunch of barn junk.
> OK I'll stop hijacking this thread, but I just had to brag on my boy for a minute


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

NRB said:


> A Shepherd dog on the other hand, works WITH human and looks to the human for directions. They WANT to please the human.


Someone needs to tell my GSD that, she apparently didn't get the memo.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Apparently difference of opinions on how dogs are is very wide. Some say packs other say not.... Who can trusty person believe?
> In any case, I like the pack idea, makes sense to me.


My dogs have formed a pack within themselves, of some sort. But rather than a wolf pack, which is (usually) made up of a mated pair and some of their offspring and is very close-knit, they remind me more of a group of friendly co-workers. They're cordial with one another, and sometimes get together to play tug (or, in the case of co-workers, pool or cards). If they see something out of place, they alarm bark it together (or in the case of co-workers, they rally together and call the cops). But since I train the dogs separately, and take them places separately and they do different things (they sometimes don't see one another from 8:00AM til 8:00PM), I don't consider them a "true pack".
When I think of a true pack in the dog sense, I think of a pack of dogs who live and work together for a purpose (racing huskies, hunting foxhounds, etc). I've read about mushers who have put their racing females (in heat) in the line with their male dogs, knowing the "pack mentality" will keep her from being bred by the lower-ranking dogs. I don't have any experience with dogs who work and live together as a pack, or group, or whatever, so basically it's here-say. I can only go with what I've observed with my own dogs


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> I'll do the above, it'll improve the dog's odds of surviving...    (sorry for the dark humor, but you people seem to care more about dogs than people)


Not at all.

Well, some people here likely do.

I just like a well trained dog, and know you might be biting off more than you can chew.

A quite common situation, one that is a prime reason shelters are full and millions of dogs fall to euthanasia each year.

I say if your dead set, and if your stubborn as you seem to be, go for it. I would... 

If you do it right and stick with it, get the education you need, multiply your chances for success, there's not many things more pleasurable then a really good dog.

I wouldn't have a small breakable dog either...  I like em enough, but they aren't for me or my lifestyle.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Nah... still has the poodle head cut. But now that I've given selection rights to my son and wife, still with my approval, I have no idea what they'll come up with.


Now your in trouble..


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

KBLover said:


> To me, it's easier just to take behavior, reward what you like, punish what you don't and move on.


 Sure, we are talking about a single dog here, not a pack. The human pack is already relatively controllable. 



Locke said:


> While I like Cesar Milan, I am not a fan of the whole "I must be pack leader" phooey. I control mostly everything my dogs do (when they get fed, when they go out, what toys they can have, when they go to bed, etc) That in itself should establish who's "in charge".


And that in itself establishes you as the pack leader, even if you don't want it.



TxRider said:


> Dogs just know who they can get away with a behavior with and who they can't. Some push it and experiment with people more than others.
> ...
> Dogs seek resources, things or activities they value, and they learn if they can get that resource or not by performing a behavior, and they learn it is different with each human.
> 
> The dogs you are looking at are smart, stubborn, and pushy about doing so.


I can see how they'd act differently with different people... but educating people what to do in each particular situation may help establishing order of things. Can't it? 



TxRider said:


> One is very smart, very driven, and very much a "what's in it for me?" dog. Unless she sees a clear reward, and it's valuable enough, she sees no reason to do something that isn't self reinforcing. Quite frustrating.
> 
> The other GSD is the most "what do you want me to do?" dog I have ever owned. Quite a sweet dog.


Everything is based on an individual's character and not the breed, which I never disagreed to. Luck of the draw.... sort of. Hopefully the breeder can chose the right characteristics.



Locke said:


> I have yet to meet a schnauzer that lives to please its owner.


I do want some independence in a dog, I don't want it to be overly sweet.



NRB said:


> It takes a lot more time and effort to train the terrier. And I am not a total newbie.


Maybe challenging but If I end up with the SS I'll be sure to train it.



NRB said:


> They are independant by breeding. They could care less how you the human thinks or feels about it. They will never look to you for direction.
> 
> The Schnauzer, no eye contact, no checking in. Take her to a hike, let her off leash and you'll never see her again. She's brave, bold, stubborn and doesn't need the human.
> 
> SO you have to train and train the Schnauzer (or any other terrier) to refer to you for direction. It takes ages b/c you are going against centuries of breeding.


Okay... okay... I get the point... while I think I'll be able to handle the SS neither my kids nor the wife will be able to do any good with it.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Grish said:


> I guess you mean besides the look.
> 
> This info bits are taken from the dogbreedinfo.com
> 
> ...


Dogbreedinfo is a notoriously unreliable source of information, so I would take anything they have to say with a grain of salt. Most importantly, I think many of us would disagree with the "high learning rate." Not that Schnauzers are stupid, by any means, just that they aren't particularly motivated to please their owners or to learn anything that doesn't seem to directly benefit them. You have been reading the posts from Schnauzer owners, right?

Having said that, how do you address the rest of the description?

_He can be quite willful, demanding, and may begin to act fearless. He may become untrustworthy with children. May become very protective and dominant, guarding objects, places and people from other people. _

Given the number of dogs who do _not _have these caveats in their descriptions, how would you justify owning a Schnauzer when you have both children and a wife who doesn't like dogs?

I'm genuinely interested in why you are so sold on the Schnauzer. Nothing you've pegged as an upside of the breed (intelligent, playful, low-shed) couldn't be found in another dog which does not have the downsides of willfullness, intense stimulation and socialization requirements, and untrustworthiness with children. Why this particular breed, then?


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> OK I'll stop hijacking this thread...


This thread has been hijacked many times, most of them by me 



TxRider said:


> I just like a well trained dog, and know you might be biting off more than you can chew.
> 
> I say if your dead set, and if your stubborn as you seem to be, go for it. I would...
> 
> If you do it right and stick with it, get the education you need, multiply your chances for success, there's not many things more pleasurable then a really good dog.


That's my problem, I always seem to be biting off more than I can chew... but it works out for the best in most cases.
I am not dead set yet.
If I'll end up with a SS I'll be sticking to its training as I cannot stand an untrained dog.



TxRider said:


> Now your in trouble..


We'll see... my wife doesn't like small dogs... and maybe after reading up on terriers we'll end up wiht a larger dog and get her a new doggie mobile... I have no idea... we'll see.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Dogbreedinfo is a notoriously unreliable source of information...
> 
> I'm genuinely interested in why you are so sold on the Schnauzer...


Let me take that same dogbreedinfo.com as the source, as unreliable as it may be, for the hypoallergenic dogs and go through the list here is what I come up with.

American Hairless Terrier - NO (hairlsee)
Airedale Terrier - YES (Larger, still a terrier)
Basenji - MAYBE (wife doesn't like)
Bedlington Terrier - NO (want a dog not a lamb, too poddle like)
Bergamasco - NO (hair)
Bichon Frise - NO (too toyish)
Bolognese - NO (hair)
Border Terrier - NO (too mutt looking)
Bouvier des Flandres - YES (but big)
Cairn Terrier - NO (small)
Chacy Ranior - NO (toy)
Chinese Crested (hairless) - NO (hairless) 
Coton De Tulear - NO (hair)
Giant Schnauzer - YES (size and a terrier)
Hairless Khala- NO (hairless)
Havanese - NO (toy)
Irish Water Spaniel - NO (poodle)
Kerry Blue Terrier - YES (still a terrier though)
Lagotto Romagnolo - NO (poodle)
Lowchen (Little Lion Dog) - NO (toy)
Maltese - NO (toy)
Miniature Poodle - NO (toy and a poodle)
Miniature Schnauzer - NO (small)
Peruvian Inca Orchid - NO (hairless)
Polish Owczarek Nizinny - NO 9hair)
Portuguese Water Dog - NO (poodle)
Puli (Pulik) - NO (hair)
Shih-Tzu - NO (toy)
Soft Coated Wheaten Terrier - NO (too hairy)
Spanish Water Dog - NO (poodle)
Standard Poodle - NO (poodle)
Standard Schnauzer - YES
Tibetan Terrier - NO
Toy Poodle - NO
West Highland White Terrier - NO (toy)
Wirehaired Fox Terrier - NO (small, still a terrier)
Xoloitzcuintle - NO (hairless)
Yorkshire Terrier - NO (small)


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Why no small dogs? If you don't think of a pug as a toy, why do you think of the similarly-sized (and just as sturdy, plus with more of the personality you like) Cairn and Westie as too toy-like? They're terriers and would be a handful, but they'd be easier for your wife and kids to deal with, would fit perfectly in your car, aren't at all "breakable"... the Cairn even has the look you like, with the darker ones having the same color fur as the SS and the same type of coat and prick ears. I guess I just don't get why you guys won't even consider them (or a mini schnauzer, for that matter). You should at least meet them at the dog show later this month and see what you think... it is very hard to choose a breed based just on pictures.


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## toblerone (Nov 24, 2009)

Looking at what you had wanted in a dog and the list of "hypoallergenic" dogs I would have to recommend a bichon frise. Yes I know you said "too toy-ish" but if you check the size of them, some are only an inch or so smaller than the SS. Also according to dogbreedinfo (which I'm going by since you looked at it) bichons are - intelligent, affectionate, bold, and lively. A good bichon will keep up with you when you exercise and then curl up on your wife or children's laps and be a nice dog to pet. For the appearance, look for a bichon with a short coat. The show dogs do look very girly, but when kept short they are quite handsome dogs, and when mine is shaved he looks a bit like a jack russel with a curly tail. Basically a large bichon with a short coat would probably make you very happy. They are great dogs to "get your feet wet" with and adapt to new dogs well so you could integrate a SS in your home later after you've had some experience.

If you are still set on a SS as your first dog, maybe you could find a trainer who has one or a terrier breed and work with those dogs specifically. Maybe you'll get lucky and find a young one in training who you can observe or possibly work with.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Why no small dogs? If you don't think of a pug as a toy, why do you think of the similarly-sized (and just as sturdy, plus with more of the personality you like) Cairn and Westie as too toy-like? They're terriers and would be a handful, but they'd be easier for your wife and kids to deal with, would fit perfectly in your car, aren't at all "breakable"... the Cairn even has the look you like, with the darker ones having the same color fur as the SS and the same type of coat and prick ears. I guess I just don't get why you guys won't even consider them (or a mini schnauzer, for that matter). You should at least meet them at the dog show later this month and see what you think... it is very hard to choose a breed based just on pictures.


I'll be the first to admit I'm not a terrier person; they don't possess the qualities I like in a dog, but I could see myself with a westie. The ones I've dealt with have been just feisty enough for a challenge, but not so much attitude that they lose their cool at the drop of a hat. Anytime we get a westie in for grooming, I snatch them up (that's the beauty of making your own schedule, lol). Plus, they're cute (but don't tell them that, it might make them mad...)


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

As I said earlier, I would go with a Kerry Blue if you're going to be so picky about all the other less allergenic breeds.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Let me take that same dogbreedinfo.com as the source, as unreliable as it may be, for the hypoallergenic dogs and go through the list here is what I come up with.
> 
> American Hairless Terrier - NO (hairlsee)
> Airedale Terrier - YES (Larger, still a terrier)
> ...


I don't see lakeland terriers or welsh terriers in there!


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> ...westie...


Still small. 



Locke said:


> ...Kerry Blue...


 Wife so far want a wiry coat, maybe it'll change. What bout it being a terrier?



toblerone said:


> bichon frise


Small and girly, sorry. 



Crantastic said:


> Cairn


Small, but the look is interesting.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I don't see lakeland terriers or welsh terriers in there!


 Well.. we already established less then reputable website... 

Both on the smaller side and what about them being a terrier???


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> As I said earlier, I would go with a Kerry Blue if you're going to be so picky about all the other less allergenic breeds.


Not a breed I'd reccomend for a first time owner. My trainer used to have one, and she said they have an extremely hard temperment, and were most definately not suited to first time owners.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> I can see how they'd act differently with different people... but educating people what to do in each particular situation may help establishing order of things. Can't it?


Yes it can.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Not a breed I'd reccomend for a first time owner. My trainer used to have one, and she said they have an extremely hard temperment, and were most definately not suited to first time owners.


Oh, well the owner of the one at my dog park said her kerry blue was her favourite terrier she's had so far because it's so sweet and easy going. I wrongly assumed that was true of the breed as a whole.

EDIT: this website makes them seem like they are a good family dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Grish, I don't think anyone here has said that you can't handle a terrier. You just happened to pick one of the most, if not _the_ most difficult terriers to work with when you suggested the Irish. There are degrees in terrier personality. 

I really think you should look into the Cairn some more, especially if you like their appearance. Can't hurt to at least meet some and talk to the breeders at the show you plan to attend!


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> ... _the_ most difficult terriers...
> 
> ...look into the Cairn some more


THE most difficult... LOL

My wife and son will be doing the looking now, I won't even comment until they show me their top three choices.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> THE most difficult... LOL
> 
> My wife and son will be doing the looking now, I won't even comment until they show me their top three choices.


I know this isn't probable because you said your wife doesn't like smaller dogs, but I would bust a gut laughing if the list were "maltese, poodle, and chihuahua"


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Well.. we already established less then reputable website...
> 
> Both on the smaller side and what about them being a terrier???


I've only met one welsh, and I liked their size. Not too big, not too tiny.
(AKC SS standard): 
Ideal height at the highest point of the shoulder blades, 18½ to 19½ inches for males and 17½ inches to 18½ inches for females

(AKC Welsh standard):
Males are about 15 inches at the withers, with an acceptable range between 15 and 15½. Bitches may be proportionally smaller.

Not too much of a difference in size, and welsh terriers look like small Airedales 
Temperament
(From the AKC siteThe Welsh Terrier is a game dog-alert, aware, spirited-but at the same time, is friendly and shows self control. Intelligence and desire to please are evident in his attitude. A specimen exhibiting an overly aggressive attitude, or shyness, should be penalized.

Heck, I'm learning in this thread


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Okay I re-read the OP and I really think you should look into Bichons and Portuguese Water Dogs. I know you said porties look like poodles but they really don't at all. I think you need to get over what looks 'girly'. A dog isn't a direct reflection of you know what.

Or how about a miniature schnauzer if you like the schnauzer look? They seem easier (but still terriers) than the standards by far. Cairns and Westies are good beginner terriers too. I really like Wheatens too. Hair length will just depends on grooming.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Not a breed I'd reccomend for a first time owner. My trainer used to have one, and she said they have an extremely hard temperment, and were most definately not suited to first time owners.


yeah...for some reason everyone ive ever met that has kerry blues also keeps Malinois and does protection sports...i dont know anything else about them but i do know that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Or what about a Wire Fox Terrier? I don't know much about them though.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> yeah...for some reason everyone ive ever met that has kerry blues also keeps Malinois and does protection sports...i dont know anything else about them but i do know that.


Yeah, they're beautiful dogs, but definately not for the faint of heart. 

On a completely unrelated note: Have you ever tried to type with a 23 lb Pug lying on your arm? NOT easy, LOL.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> ...welsh terriers look like small Airedales...





Laurelin said:


> ...Bichons and Portuguese Water Dogs....miniature schnauzer...Cairns and Westies.





Laurelin said:


> Or what about a Wire Fox Terrier?


Anyone know of a site that lists ALL "hypoallergenic" dogs? Looks like the dogbreedinfo.com is missing quite a few...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> ...23 lb Pug...


 That is one FAT pug.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Nope, you should check your facts before you makes such accusations. The standard size for Pugs is 10 to 18 lbs, but many, many Pugs are larger than this. Kuma is tall for a Pug and is in beautiful shape as you can see here.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Miniature Schnauzers are an entirely different breed than the Standards. Not just "they don't show together" different breed, they're an entirely different kind of dog than Standards. And basically indestructible. Definitely easier, and IMO probably the easiest of all the terriers.

You need to be more careful about breeders though, they're a lot more common as well. Temperaments can get nasty if you aren't careful.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Grish said:


> Anyone know of a site that lists ALL "hypoallergenic" dogs? Looks like the dogbreedinfo.com is missing quite a few...


Yeah dogbreedinfo kind of sucks... I have tried looking up

Basically you're looking at anything with curly or wiry hair or hair that grows continuously.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Yeah, [Kerrys are] beautiful dogs, but definately not for the faint of heart.


If an Irish Terrier is a bad idea, a Kerry Blue is a worse idea by a factor of 1.5. They are everything an Irish is, but bigger, faster, and stronger.

Semi OT...I would avoid breeders who are attempting to breed "nicer" or more manageable terriers. If you try to breed aggression into a Golden, you run a strong risk of introducing instability. If you breed the sharpness out of a terrier, you run the risk of addling their impressive intelligence. There are a couple of breeds that have mostly had the fight bred out of them, and which have fairly high percentage of specimens who are just dim. JMO.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

TxRider said:


> Someone needs to tell my GSD that, she apparently didn't get the memo.


Sorry TxRider I was thinking true herding dogs, like the Aussie, heeler, Border Collie, and etc etc. I wasn't thinking GSD.


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Or what about a Wire Fox Terrier? I don't know much about them though.


We had those when I was a kid. I remember one in particular, Cleo, with great fondness.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I think it's great when someone finds "their" breed, especially if it's a breed they never really would have considered before they met them  I like collie-dog types. Longer noses, pointy-ish ears, long tails, etc. Papillons and GSD's aren't collie or colley dogs, but they share some of the basic looks I like, and possess the kind of intelligence I adore. The papillons would stand on their head if I asked them too, and Auz is one of those dogs who does really dumb things, but then can turn around and amaze you in a real life situation. I have considered border collies, scotch (aka old farm type) collies, shelties, and english shepherds. Can you see a trend?


Jenny,
I wish we were in the same area so you could meet Tucker. He's a big sheltie but you'd love him!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Grish said:


> That is one FAT pug.


Not really, pugs are very dense and often weigh more than they look like they do. My boy weighs a little over 20 lbs and is RIGHT on weight and fit enough to keep up with my Dobe.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Grish said:


> I guess you mean besides the look.
> 
> This info bits are taken from the dogbreedinfo.com
> 
> ...


Dogbreedinfo is a horrible site. Talk about an Alpha-holic. Anyway. They do shed. There is grey hair all over the dog bed, and little tumbleweeds in my house. They don't blow a coat like a double coated breed does. They do have dander, I have to wonder if they actually have more dry skin than a double coated breed. Mine at least has dry skin and she is fed top shelf dog food (Innova) 

As to caring for the coat, I have a professional groomer hand strip it every 2 months for $90 bucks + or -. Or you can have it clippered. IMHO a clippered dog just isn't the same. And if you have fallen in love with "The Look" of a schnauzer then you need to find a good groomer who can strip and roll the coat. Check out the thread by Herricks Mommy, it is hard to find a good groomer who knows how to strip a Standard well. 

The little doggie oder is true. I was amazed the first time my dog came in from the rain how little wet dog smell there is. Dog owners will know what I am talking about. You know when you and Fido have just been hiking out in the rain and you put him into your car, drive off and are overwhelmed by Wet Dog Smell. It's not a bad smell, it's just a strong one. 

providing enough exercise to prevent a young 6mo SS from being restless is equal to 5 straight hours play with say a highly energetic boxer pup the same age. THEN and only then will your SS lay about the house like the stereotypical family dog. You can not wear a young SS down. Best to keep it's mind occupied. Do lots of training throughout the day. Mental stimulation can be equal to physical stimulation as far as tiring a dog down. 

And for everyone who has said that the SS (0r was it the Irish?) was the hardest terrier out there I have to disagree. You could not pay me enough $$ to own and care for a Jack Russell Terrier. Fox terriers are similar. Fiest as well. They are extremely high energy dogs. The SS definatly has an off switch. 

The only 1 Kerry Blue that I have met lives a few houses away from me (we moved here last spring) it is about as bidable on a leash as a JRT on crack.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

What about Airedale? How bad of a terrier is this one?


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Grish said:


> What about Airedale? How bad of a terrier is this one?


hah, beats me. My grandmother had one when I was little. They are the King of Terriers, lol whatever that means. Maybe it's just that they are the largest of the terriers...... as long as you don't count a BRT as a terrier I suppose.....

I suspect that they are as hypoallergenic as a SS. You can keep their coats stripped. Grayco22 on this board has one I think. 

Gonna be sort of the same, stubborn, terrier like. I'd personally guess that a SS would be an easier dog to train, but what do I know. Ask Grayco....


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> What about Airedale? How bad of a terrier is this one?


I haven't had a ton of experience with them, BUT the ones I've met, through the doggy daycare I used to supervise and at the grooming salon I used to work at, were all really neurotic. Not hard like Kerry Blue's per say, but neurotic. Non stop barking, no off switch, rather annoying actually.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

NRB said:


> ...They are the King of Terriers, lol whatever that means...


I should have never found this damn board... 

My head is spinning (insert head banging on the wall here)... I don't want a dog anymore.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i LOVE terriers. particularly bull and terrier breeds but terriers are definately my thing.

im a terrier person...

i need a dog who will challenge me. I want that because that is an inherant part of how i train. i need a dog with a high prey drive and extreme endurance because i like to track and train using prey drive type items. i also rollerskate and hike. 

thus i am a terrier person. Terriers are high energy, generally very prey driven, sometimes Dog Aggressive endurance athletes. they come from small dogs bred to take out vermin. some terrier breeds come from rat pits where one dog would have to take out swarms of rats. Others go straight underground into the dens of their quarry and flush them out...sometimes having to fight it out with their quarry in damp, pitch black tunnels. You can't be a timid dog to do terrier work. and the bigger terriers? they have either dogfighting or guardwork in their ancestry IN ADDITION TO terrier work.

those kinds of things take a really bold, smart, almost sharp in some ways dog. all of them have these traits to some degree.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/CJondahl/Nutria Hunt/10-12-08hunt001.jpg

that's the url to a pic of a patterdale terrier. its a bit graphic but it gets the point across about what kind of dog all terriers come from. Patterdales are still very much full working terriers and they are little fireballs....much like the ancestors of all terriers.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Grish said:


> I should have never found this damn board...
> 
> My head is spinning (insert head banging on the wall here)... I don't want a dog anymore.



An Airedale is a step in the right direction....

Someone mentioned a Kerry Blue Terrier.... That is a step in the wrong direction. They tend to be harder dogs than either ITs or SSs,

BTW..... Definition of hard.... Strong willed, stoic, tenacious, drivey, etc.


I have actually had a dog in my head since page one of this thread.....

Wirehaired Pointing Griffon

For the following reasons..... 
1) It fits the appearance of the other dogs you seem interested in. Wirehaired, build, etc. 

2) Medium sized dog maybe slightly larger than a Standard Schnauzer. But only slightly. 

3)Lively and active but not hyper.

4) They are a "real" dog but not "hard"

5) They were bred away from the aloofness and hardness of GWP's

6) They are affable, biddable, good with kids, nice family dog.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I have actually had a dog in my head since page one of this thread.....
> 
> Wirehaired Pointing Griffon
> 
> ...


Dang, I totally forgot about them! They do sound like they'd be a good fit here.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Griffs are a great idea! I don't know why I didn't think of that, lol. That's the breed my dad swears he's going to get once he retires. I definitely think they're a great suggestion!

About Airedales all I know is they seem like a lot of dog. I know they're used for protection sports and hard core hunting.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> About Airedales all I know is they seem like a lot of dog. I know they're used for protection sports and hard core hunting.


Yeah, like I said, I've only had contact with 3, but my experiences weren't good. The first was my bosses dog at the stables where I worked, and she spent all her time trying to kill the barn cats.  She had to be tied up constantly to prevent it. The next one was at the doggy daycare I supervised, and it would pick one dog and try to play with it endlessly, until the dog was snarling and snapping at it, move on to the next dog and do the same, and so on until there wasn't a dog we could put it with. If we tried to put it in time out in our crate room to give the other dogs a break, it would scream and bark endlessly. By the end of the day, it's beard would be soaked with drool. Bleh. The last one was at the grooming shop where I used to work, and it was pretty much the same as the one from daycare. Bark, whine, and scream constantly, until it would start to get the runs. Nice looking dog, it was actually a former show champion, but more than a little neurotic. I'm sure there are nice, stable Airdales out there, but I've yet to meet one, lol.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I haven't had a ton of experience with [Airedales], BUT the ones I've met, through the doggy daycare I used to supervise and at the grooming salon I used to work at, were all really neurotic. Not hard like Kerry Blue's per say, but neurotic. Non stop barking, no off switch, rather annoying actually.


I think this is partially the problem I described previously. Airedales used to be one of the "problem" breeds. A 65 lb. terrier...what could possibly go wrong? Back in the day, they were used to hunt puma, bear, and hog and they were utilized by the US Army War Dog program during WWII. There seems to have been an effort to breed a 'Dale that is not so flinty hard as the earlier dogs. This has not been uniformly successful. The modern 'Dale is less of a problem breed, but (IMO) not as good a dog. There are still breeders with lines of Airedale that will mix it up with a mountain lion or fight a man.

I don't really get the point of owning terriers, only to breed the terrier traits out of them. A pretty goofy concept IMO.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Now going back to the questions I asked last night....

IT or SS takes your remote and you want it back....

Dog: Its mine now sucker....
You: stand your ground
Dog: I done told you its mine, now go away.
You: stand your ground
Dog: Don't make me break out a can of whoop azz...
You: Push things.....
Dog: Don't say I didn't warn you bub... Its on like Donkey Kong....


Now.... Same Scenario with a similar aged WPG...

Dog: Oh, man you want this back? Let me bring it to you. While I am up are you comfortable? Want me to adjust the heat? Want anything in the fridge? No? Okay.... Lets watch TV... Can we watch the Sportsman's Channel?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I think this is partially the problem I described previously. Airedales used to be one of the "problem" breeds. A 65 lb. terrier...what could possibly go wrong? Back in the day, they were used to hunt puma, bear, and hog and they were utilized by the US Army War Dog program during WWII. There seems to have been an effort to breed a 'Dale that is not so flinty hard as the earlier dogs. This has not been uniformly successful. The modern 'Dale is less of a problem breed, but (IMO) not as good a dog. There are still breeders with lines of Airedale that will mix it up with a mountain lion or fight a man.
> 
> I don't really get the point of owning terriers, only to breed the terrier traits out of them. A pretty goofy concept IMO.


I totally agree. I think Airdales are beautiful dogs, but based on my experiences so far, you couldn't pay me to own one.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

WPGs, like the Drathaar and the Pudel Pointer, are versatile hunting breeds. As such, they tend to be sharp on fur. They are more friendly toward people, but not friendly like a Golden Retriever. The Pudel Pointer is probably the least aloof of the 3. WPGs and GWPs have no real split between show and field lines and a good percentage of show lines have decent hunting drive. I think they are more popular with hunters than bench exhibitors, and some of the latter hunt with their dogs. Pudel Pointers are almost exclusively hunting companions, and more pure bird dogs.

Versatile pointing dogs are pretty easy to get along with if their needs are met. They do have higher than normal exercise requirements. Consistent training is a must or they'll put their noses to the ground and be gone in less time than it takes you to say "Where's my dog?".

I can't really speak to the issue of allergies. I've never been troubled by those.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I've worked with a few airedales, and while they've been mostly tough dogs, they've not been impossible- I think an airedale at the softer end of the spectrum for the breed, from a very reputable breeder would be a better choice than an Irish. I still think a large MS from rescue would be a better choice than a SS though. My one concern with an AT is that most of the ones I've known have been very animal aggressive- including cat and goat killers.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w237/CJondahl/Nutria Hunt/10-12-08hunt001.jpg
> 
> that's the url to a pic of a patterdale terrier. its a bit graphic but it gets the point across about what kind of dog all terriers come from. Patterdales are still very much full working terriers and they are little fireballs....much like the ancestors of all terriers.


 I got to show this picture to my wife... 



JohnnyBandit said:


> Wirehaired Pointing Griffon
> 
> For the following reasons.....
> 1) It fits the appearance of the other dogs you seem interested in. Wirehaired, build, etc.
> ...





Marsh Muppet said:


> WPGs, like the Drathaar and the Pudel Pointer, are versatile hunting breeds. ... Versatile pointing dogs are pretty easy to get along with if their needs are met....


Now I need to find out about the allergies with the WPG's. I'll research this one a bit. How are they in the shedding department?



JohnnyBandit said:


> Now going back to the questions I asked last night....
> 
> IT or SS takes your remote and you want it back....
> 
> ...


 This is brilliant )))))))



Kuma'sMom said:


> ...I'm sure there are nice, stable Airdales out there, but I've yet to meet one, lol.





Marsh Muppet said:


> A 65 lb. terrier...what could possibly go wrong?





Dogstar said:


> I've worked with a few airedales, and while they've been mostly tough dogs, they've not been impossible...


Fine, no Airedale's... The bottom line is that both I and my oldest son will be able to deal with any dog, while my younger son and the wifey.... not so much. I don't want to turn them off dogs and will have to be more reasonable than stubborn.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Grish said:


> There's going to be a dog show in NJ on March 26,27,28 which I am planning to attend.


That should a good one. It's a combined effort of a lot of clubs. FYI, the AB shows are the New Brunswick Kennel Club (Fri/Sat) and the Bronx Kennel Club(Sun). If the past is any indication, you'll definitely see some schnauzers and Irish terriers at those. 

Just a suggestion: Wait until *after* the judging to approach the people showing your breeds. Pre-judging can be a hectic time. 

And if you can, tear yourself away from the conformation rings and head over to the NBKC obedience rings on Friday or Saturday. Prepare to be impressed.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Poly said:


> That should a good one. It's a combined effort of a lot of clubs. FYI, the AB shows are the New Brunswick Kennel Club (Fri/Sat) and the Bronx Kennel Club(Sun). If the past is any indication, you'll definitely see some schnauzers and Irish terriers at those.
> 
> Just a suggestion: Wait until *after* the judging to approach the people showing your breeds. Pre-judging can be a hectic time.
> 
> And if you can, tear yourself away from the conformation rings and head over to the NBKC obedience rings on Friday or Saturday. Prepare to be impressed.


I plan to go on Saturday. I'll need to find a schedule of events, if such exists, as I don't plan on spending a full day there.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Grish said:


> What about Airedale? How bad of a terrier is this one?


Oh my ... oh my... oh my. 

I've been following this thread for a while and all I can say is that you apparently do like to be challenged, right? So between your first two breeds and this one, you'll be plenty challenged


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Grish said:


> I plan to go on Saturday. I'll need to find a schedule of events, if such exists, as I don't plan on spending a full day there.


The "schedule" is called a program and you can buy one as you go in. It contains a lot of information such as the names of the entries, the breeder, the owner, etc. as well as the ring numbers and times.

If you want to make sure you'll catch the breed/breeds you are interested in, you should to be at the rings close to the starting time. The judging of a breed can move pretty quickly especially when there are only a few entries. 

Fair warning however: While the ring numbers almost never change, the times of the judging do occasionally get pushed back for various reasons <grumble, grumble, grumble> .


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Poly said:


> The "schedule" is called a program and you can buy one as you go in....


 I coudn't find the program online, any idea where I can get it except going there physically?


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Here - it's on Infodog 
http://www.infodog.com/clubs/2010038502.HTM - New Brunswick Kennel Club (you're looking for the "Judging Program"- it's not up yet and won't be up until after entries close on 3/10 - so look around 3/24)

Here's the link for the Bronx Kennel Club - http://www.infodog.com/clubs/2010081701.HTM

You can also go here - http://www.raudogshows.com/ - the superintendent for those shows (that's the organization that actually does the organizing, laying out the rings and whatnot, there are a bunch of different ones but most of the ones in the northeast are MB-F and Jim Rau) and click on Judging Programs. )


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Dogstar said:


> Here - it's on Infodog
> http://www.infodog.com/clubs/2010038502.HTM - New Brunswick Kennel Club (you're looking for the "Judging Program"- it's not up yet and won't be up until after entries close on 3/10 - so look around 3/24)
> 
> Here's the link for the Bronx Kennel Club - http://www.infodog.com/clubs/2010081701.HTM
> ...


 Cool... thanks... I'll have to be patient then.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Had couple long conversations with my wife, last night and just now. Basically had to admin that the SS and any terrier breed for that matter would not be a wise choice.

I can see myself and and my oldest son handling any dog, while my wife and the younger one would just get frustrated and possibly affraid of a terrier. I don't want to turn them off dogs as it took me a looooong while to convice the wife to get one.

Time for compromise...

She's complainning that I want her to research dogs and she does not have time for it. So I showed her the Portugese Water Dog and the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. A poodle is still off the table.

She looked both dogs over and even read some stuff I thrown her way... didn't like either one too much.

She wants the look of a clean Irish Terrier, but in a different dog. The PWD is too poodely and has a lot of potential health issues (I didn't even mention that Obama's have a PWD, which may be a turn off in itself). The WPG is not as groomable or pretty looking as others.

So I went ahead and compiled her a list of all dog breeds, from dogtime.com, and I put it all in a spreadsheed with four categories for each breed, Drooling, Intelligence, Kid Friendliness and Shedding. This way she can re-sort in any order she wants. She spent about 30 minutes with the spreadsheet and basically said "Find me a dog looking as nice as a groomed Irish Terrier, but not a terrier, does not shed, does not drool and good with kids."

Now I'm left pulling whatever hair left in my head out... by the time I'm done I'll be THE expert on selecting a dog.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

She has unrealistic expectations, and if looks matter more than temperament, than you probably won't find a dog that matches well your family.


EDIT to add: I was not a fan of poodles until I adopted my foster guide dog puppy. My dad and sister are allergic to the shedders thus we couldn't foster the labs or goldens, but I wanted a second dog in our house SO badly, that I didn't care if we could only foster poodles. Well, that little black fluff ball that we picked up at 8 weeks stole my heart faster than I ever imagined. He wasn't the prissy sissy dog I thought he would be. He would play fetch forever, he would happily jump in big mud puddles, swim in the lake, and he would learn commands in a matter of minutes and do anything just to make me say "good boy!". We kept him long and scruffy until his coat change, and while the first hair cut was shocking, he looked SO handsome with his nice shaved face, and everyone we walked passed would say what a gorgeous dog he was (and still is, despite his horrible conformation). 

Don't knock it till you've tried it.


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## Jax (Feb 14, 2010)

^ agree. I haven't touched this thread since early on because it has seemed like mostly you were more preoccupied with the way the dog looked and having a "macho" attitude dog before. Now that you seem to be moving on from this, your wife seems hung up on the looks of the animal. Go figure. 

Something is going to have to give. There is no "perfect" dog in this situation if you don't want a "poodle looking dog" and terriers are (I agree) unsuited to your situation. The more "poodle looking dogs" are pretty much ALL the least allergenic breeds (as I'm sure you've realized by now). I think the only thing you can do is explain this to her (try looking up why, I'm sure there are lots of resources providing explanations). And then perhaps you can both convince yourselves that having a companion that you love and care for and suits your lifestyle and, quite importantly, doesn't make you ill, is a much bigger plus than one that is "a good looking dog" in your eyes.


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## Shalonda (Nov 18, 2009)

I find it weird that you considered a labradoodle at first, but are so opposed to a PWD. A labradoodle, at least the ones with the less allergenic coat type, look a heck of a lot like a PWD except usually a bit bigger. 

I also find it weird that you hate poodles because they have narrow heads, yet you are stuck on an Irish Terrier which has a long narrow head. So that excuse makes no sense. I think you're just so against poodles because you see them as a girly type dog and you are apparently too insecure to have one for fear that people will see you as unmanly.


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## Spitzy (Oct 13, 2007)

Grish said:


> She wants the look of a clean Irish Terrier, but in a different dog. [...] The WPG is *not as groomable* or pretty looking as others.


_(emphasis mine)_

Not as easy to find pictures on Google Images of close-clipped WPG, ok, that seems true enough. _Not as groomable_? That's absurd - I'm pretty sure WPG hair is just as able to be cut as an Irish.

There's no reason that this first dog couldn't be clipped shorter like the second dog - they already look quite alike except the fur of the first dog is about twice as long around its eyes and cheeks, etc.


















The main difference I can see is the ear set.

Bodies look pretty similar, too, when they are clipped to similar lengths.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Locke said:


> ...Don't knock it till you've tried it.


Yeah, I'll see... maybe...



Jax said:


> ...And then perhaps you can both convince yourselves that having a companion that you love and care for and suits your lifestyle and, quite importantly, doesn't make you ill, is a much bigger plus than one that is "a good looking dog" in your eyes.


 Trying...



Shalonda said:


> I find it weird that you considered a labradoodle at first, but are so opposed to a PWD.
> 
> I also find it weird that you hate poodles because they have narrow heads, yet you are stuck on an Irish Terrier which has a long narrow head. So that excuse makes no sense. I think you're just so against poodles because you see them as a girly type dog and you are apparently too insecure to have one for fear that people will see you as unmanly.


Not opposed to PWD anymore.  IT has a long head but the nose is not pointy. I do see them as girly, you are right, but I really don't care what people would say.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Spitzy said:


> _(emphasis mine)_
> 
> Not as easy to find pictures on Google Images of close-clipped WPG, ok, that seems true enough. _Not as groomable_? That's absurd - I'm pretty sure WPG hair is just as able to be cut as an Irish.


WPG coats vary quite a bit. Some are closer and some are very full. Some are softer and some are hard and wiry. I'd be inclined to guess that hypo-allergenicity varies as well.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Spitzy said:


> ...Not as easy to find pictures on Google Images of close-clipped WPG, ok, that seems true enough....
> 
> The main difference I can see is the ear set.
> 
> Bodies look pretty similar, too, when they are clipped to similar lengths.


True not easy, here are a couple of pics I showed my wife today to compare the two... I actually like the longer coat of the last picture.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Spitzy said:


> ...The main difference I can see is the ear set...


The ears make them probably look more peppy... which she might like more than the older dog look of a WPG. 



Marsh Muppet said:


> WPG coats vary quite a bit. Some are closer and some are very full. Some are softer and some are hard and wiry. I'd be inclined to guess that hypo-allergenicity varies as well.


The hypoallergenity is supposed to be trapping of the undercoat in the outercoat... would it make a big difference which type of coat is outer?
What I read in one of the WPG site is that to keep the coat in original wiry condition to rarely wash the dog, the more you wash it the softer the coat becomes.


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

WOW the WPG seems like such a great dog!! LOVE the looks of the dog but the personality sounds fantastic and they seem like a very healthy breed...... Hummmm.......hummmmmmmm (lol)....might need a friend for Grady....


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

MicheleZ said:


> ...but the personality sounds fantastic and they seem like a very healthy breed...


The health compared to the PWD is like comparing an overweight person to an athlete )))))))


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## MicheleZ (Nov 5, 2009)

Grish said:


> The health compared to the PWD is like comparing an overweight person to an athlete )))))))


Besides personality, health is big one in my book. Having owned GSDs with numerous genetic problems, I really looked for a healthy breed when researching before I got Grady. You don't realize how important this is, until you have a dog with a major health issue()s - it is really heartbreaking.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MicheleZ said:


> WOW the WPG seems like such a great dog!! LOVE the looks of the dog but the personality sounds fantastic and they seem like a very healthy breed...... Hummmm.......hummmmmmmm (lol)....might need a friend for Grady....


I'm liking the looks of the WPG, too. And you can do a lot with terrier hair, it just takes a groomer with a bit of creativity! <G> You could groom a WPG exactly like a SS, or an Irish if you wanted to...  Also the Mars Coat Kings do WONDERS with getting a terrier coat to lay nicely between hand stripping...


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

I am wondering if anyone on this board actually owns a WPG and can chime in from personal experience... Or should I, maybe, start a new thread specifically on the WPG?


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

They are not exactly common, but are fairly popular with bird hunters. The only people I know (online know...not real life know) with Griffs are upland bird hunters. You may have to do some legwork and fast talking to get a breeder to sell one to a non-hunting family. These dogs need to hunt something. If not birds, then formal tracking trials and/or SAR type activities. Lots of people who don't hunt participate in NAVHDA tests.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Grish said:


> I can see myself and and my oldest son handling any dog, (


I am 42 years old. Grew up in an environment surrounded by dogs. (Father and grandfather bred dogs) I have owned multiple dogs at any given time since I was a child. My resume of dogs I have owned includes: Catahoula Leopard Dogs, American Pit Bull Terriers (game bred lines) Black Mouthed Curs, various hounds, a Rottweiler, a Rough Collie, a Lab, and Australian Cattle Dogs. 

I have trained dogs part time for about 15 years. I work more with behavioral issues than obedience training. I do not consider myself or advertise myself as a behaviorist. I actually don't advertise at all. I take on clients mostly on referrals. I also do some in home pet sitting. With the pet sitting dogs that cannot (or the owner is not comfortable with) boarding. These tend to be breeds that either have a poor public perception or are very high drive, hard dogs. 

And I would not make the statement you made. I consider myself a student of dogs. The more I learn, the more I know, the more questions I have. And no matter how experienced you are, no matter how talented you are, how many situations you have dealt with, you WILL come across a situation you have not seen before. If you have the experience, determination, and resources, you can work it out. But you will be tested. This goes double when you start talking about hard, high drive dogs. 

I hope I am wrong, but your over confidence is going to cause you some issues and frustration.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> You may have to do some legwork and fast talking to get a breeder to sell one to a non-hunting family.


I'll let you know how that goes... 



JohnnyBandit said:


> ....you WILL come across a situation you have not seen before. If you have the experience, determination, and resources, you can work it out...


 And I do have the ability to work through such situations, but I'm sure there will be frustrations along the way.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Well, we went to see a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon in person last night as the more I was reading about the breed the more I liked it.

Everything about the dog we like... except for size... if only they came a few inches shorter it'd be a perfect dog.

Now my wife is pushing me to show her an alternate breed to the WPG, one that's smaller but has similar personality and character...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

What about a Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen? I haven't owned one myself, but this is a quote from Canada's Guide to Dogs: "He is an active, alert, curious, happy, independent yet eager to please dog. He is very intelligent, affectionate, and requires human companionship. This is a busy hunting hound who requires lots of outdoor exercise and today, PBGVs are seen successfully competing in Obedience, Tracking, Agility as well as the show ring. They have also been used to work as Therapy dogs and Search and Rescue Dogs."


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> What about a Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen?...


I don't know... a little on the smallish side and the personality is leaning towards the terriers... I'll read on it some more...

I just realized what it reminded me off... a basset hound, long ears and longish body... duh... I should've realized it from the name ))))))))))


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

More of a hound personality actually.  But they seem like nice little dogs.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

"He is quite willing to please his owners, as long as it doesn’t interfere with other more interesting activities!" taken from http://www.pbgv.org/images/BreedInfo/PEC_Trifold_final_version-portrait.pdf

More of a terrier traint, is it not?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Grish said:


> "He is quite willing to please his owners, as long as it doesn’t interfere with other more interesting activities!" taken from http://www.pbgv.org/images/BreedInfo/PEC_Trifold_final_version-portrait.pdf
> 
> More of a terrier traint, is it not?


No, that's hound all the way. PBGVs are a hound breeds. Hounds tend to be more independent type dogs.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> What about a Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen?
> "This is a *busy* hunting hound who requires lots of outdoor exercise ..."


This is the problem with simply reading breed profiles. You really have to learn to read between the lines and identify those "code" words. It's like reading that a particular house for sale is_ "A Handyman's Special"_. 

This is a _very_ cute and personable breed which _is_ quite terrier-like in certain respects. As far as being "*busy*", for the ones I have met, "busy" is a gross understatement. They look to be an excellent, high-energy sporting dog. But this is only one person's observations, and this, like reading breed profiles, should be taken with a grain of salt. 

By the way, there is a slightly larger ("grand") version which is a couple of inches or so taller. I've never seen one of these "big boys", only read about them.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

prntmkr said:


> ...learn to read between the lines and identify those "code" words....


 I understand that... and try to do the best I can. In addition there are individual personalities to consider...




> By the way, there is a slightly larger ("grand") version which is a couple of inches or so taller. I've never seen one of these "big boys", only read about them.


 I couldn't find any reasonable information regarding the Grand version, no breeders, nothing.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

This is some more information on them from Dogs in Canada's Breed Guide:


ORIGIN
Known as the “happy breed,” the Petit Basset Griffon Vendeen or PBGV for short, is the smallest of four breeds of rough-coated French hounds. Of ancient origin, its history can be traced back to the 16th century. A popular sporting hound in France, it is used chiefly to follow scent and drive game, something it does with keenness and enthusiasm in the densest cover. His name in French says much about him: petit meaning “small,” basset meaning “low to the ground,” griffon meaning “rough-coated”and Vendeen is the area of France where the breed originated. Introduced to this continent in the 1980s, the PBGV instantly attracted hordes of admirers.
TEMPERAMENT
Happy, extroverted, independent yet eager to please, it’s no wonder the PBGV quickly became popular. Though they can be stubborn at times, PBGVs are said to be easy to train.
ACTIVITY LEVEL
As a bouncy, busy hunting hound, the PBGV should have lots of outdoor exercise. 

They may be a touch smaller than you want, but I think it's going to be tough for you to find a breed with the personality and coat characteristics that you want that is exactly in the size you want as well. Sometimes you gotta make a compromise or two.  I'm also not saying these are the perfect dog for you, just the closest I could find in looks to the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon with a smaller size.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Grish said:


> I don't know... a little on the smallish side and the personality is leaning towards the terriers... I'll read on it some more...
> 
> I just realized what it reminded me off... a basset hound, long ears and longish body... duh... I should've realized it from the name ))))))))))


I own one, small pic but Boone is in my sig line. Even though they're hounds, they definitely have a terrier temperment, IMO, from owning Boone. They short but believe me, they don't think they're little!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Grish said:


> "He is quite willing to please his owners, as long as it doesn’t interfere with other more interesting activities!" taken from http://www.pbgv.org/images/BreedInfo/PEC_Trifold_final_version-portrait.pdf
> 
> More of a terrier traint, is it not?


My Boone acts more like a terrier than a hound.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

They're 'terrierish' in that they're stll definitely independent hunting dogs- but they don't have the terrier 'jerk to other dogs' trait. The Grands are out there- they're in the AKC FSS, I think- but they're few and far between. All the folks I know who breed them (2) are PBGV folks primarily. 

The one thing that I think is worth mentioning is that they're going to be difficult or impossible to have reliable off leash. They're just nose-powered.  They really are lovely dogs though, and definitely worth looking at.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> My Boone acts more like a terrier than a hound.


Thank you!
As a "family pet", that sums up my first-hand impression of the breed, 
but I didn't want to argue with the "it's-definitely-a-hound" folks.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

prntmkr said:


> Thank you!
> As a "family pet", that sums up my first-hand impression of the breed,
> but I didn't want to argue with the "it's-definitely-a-hound" folks.


You're welcome! We've had terriers (two female smooth fox terriers) and one hound (foxhound)...Boone acts more like the foxes. He does have the hound nose, it's always on the ground. I know people with many peebs; Boone will be my one & only. That's a definite. I'm sure there are some who act more houndlike; I know of some who act more terrier like. For anyone getting one, or any breed for that matter, know what you're getting. Do more research than I did!


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> They may be a touch smaller than you want, but I think it's going to be tough for you to find a breed with the personality and coat characteristics that you want that is exactly in the size you want as well.


 I know I'd have to compromise, but with the WPG I would compromise in size being larger than desited. With the PBGV I'd be sacrificing the size, smaller than desired, and the temperment, as I already got sort of attracted to the laid back personality of the WPG. Desicions... desicions... 



InkedMarie said:


> I own one, small pic but Boone is in my sig line. Even though they're hounds, they definitely have a terrier temperment, IMO, from owning Boone. They short but believe me, they don't think they're little!





InkedMarie said:


> My Boone acts more like a terrier than a hound.


 LOL... personal experience is great... and as I was scared off of terriers by all of you I am a little aloof of the terrier traits. 



Dogstar said:


> The one thing that I think is worth mentioning is that they're going to be difficult or impossible to have reliable off leash. They're just nose-powered.


 That, to me is a terrier trait, is it not? And looking more and more at WPG's I don't want a terrier anymore. 



prntmkr said:


> Thank you!
> As a "family pet", that sums up my first-hand impression of the breed,
> but I didn't want to argue with the "it's-definitely-a-hound" folks.


 It may be a hound but it act's terrierly....


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Actually, I'm not sure they're any more active than the WPGs- but I've not really spent any time aroudn WPGs. The PBGVs are definitely not any more active than my corgis were, though.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Not sure where we are in this discussion, or why I'm even posting here again. 
I suppose I simply I have too much time on my hands.  

Anyways, I'll once again bring up the *Spinone Italiano*. 
From what I've seen, they're _somewhat_ similar (not really, but kind'a) to the WHPG 
but a bit larger and, IMO, softer and more easy-going, 
_without being "wimpy"._
It is _certainly_ an _easier _dog than a PBGV!!! 

This is, generally speaking, a very sweet, healthy, "outdoorsy" breed 
which is certainly worth taking a good look at! 
As a bonus (perhaps?), most retain good hunting instincts.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am a bit of a late comer to this thread but I have read most of it. It is interesting to me how strong some peoples opinions are about right or wrong breeds for people. I would even go so far as to agree that a Giant or Standard Schnauzer MIGHT not be the right dog for a first time owner. They certainly wouldn't be my first pick for a first time owner but I personally LOVE Schnauzers especially the Giants. Giants are on my top 5 favorite breeds list.

People would have thought my parents crazy when they brought home a Rottweiler puppy for me to raise and train on my own when I was less then 10 years old. That however, turned into over a 32 year relationship/love affair with the breed. I think whether or not someone can truly handle something depends greatly on their commitment to making it happen. Once I had my puppy, there was nothing that would deter me from making it work. 

I do not recommend allowing a child to deal with a dog by themselves (without adult supervision) but it was a different world back then and I was a very determined child when it came to my dog. My parents never had to feed or clean up after my dog, they never worked on training either. I know there are few children that stay so focused so it is good that you are going into that part with your eyes wide open.

I think the best advise you have received to was to be sure to get your new puppy into some training classes using positive training methods. I will go a step further and encourage you to continue in those classes until your dog is well into adulthood. Not to say that you have to go every week for the first 3 years, but you should continue training for the life of your dog and classes should be much more then puppy classes.

I have trained MANY dogs in my life. I was even a service dog trainer so you could safely say, I have a relatively good idea of how to train but I still take each of my dogs to class. Not so much for me, but training around other dogs and people is a wonderful way to enhance the training process. I cannot stress enough the need to properly socialize your dogs, especially if you go the way of a Terrier or working dog.

I personally cannot wait to hear which dogs your son and wife chose and how you work out which breed you will pursue. Either way, I wish you the best of luck and I hope that in 32 years, you still love the breed you chose. This will mean you have had the best of experience or at least appreciated the bumps along the way. When you do get puppy, pictures will be required.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Dogstar said:


> Actually, I'm not sure they're any more active than the WPGs- but I've not really spent any time aroudn WPGs. The PBGVs are definitely not any more active than my corgis were, though.


I am not worried about them being active, what's a warning sign for me is to not have the dog off leash or it'll run off on a wild goose chase, which may in fact be an actual wild goose chase. 



prntmkr said:


> Anyways, I'll once again bring up the *Spinone Italiano*.
> From what I've seen, they're _somewhat_ similar (not really, but kind'a) to the WHPG
> but a bit larger


At this point I am trying to find a smaller dog than the WPG... 



Inga said:


> ...I would even go so far as to agree that a Giant or Standard Schnauzer MIGHT not be the right dog for a first time owner.


 I understand the MIGHT part and what I want to avoid is to scare my wife off dogs completely with a stubborn dog that would not listen to her, she won't be training the dog. 


Inga said:


> I think whether or not someone can truly handle something depends greatly on their commitment to making it happen.


While I will commit to training the dog and I can see my oldest also being into training the dog my youngest and the wife will do nothing of such which may be a problem with a schnauzer.




Inga said:


> ...it was a different world back then and I was a very determined child when it came to my dog. My parents never had to feed or clean up after my dog, they never worked on training either. I know there are few children that stay so focused so it is good that you are going into that part with your eyes wide open.


 I'll be the one doing all of it, with my oldest being into it for a while and then starting to slack... it was a different world. 


Inga said:


> I think the best advise you have received to was to be sure to get your new puppy into some training classes using positive training methods. I will go a step further and encourage you to continue in those classes until your dog is well into adulthood. Not to say that you have to go every week for the first 3 years, but you should continue training for the life of your dog and classes should be much more then puppy classes.


 I'll definitely start off with some training classes but I do not see my self doing it for long... maybe if my son gets into it...


Inga said:


> I cannot stress enough the need to properly socialize your dogs, especially if you go the way of a Terrier or working dog.


Socialization is a must and we do have dogs in the larger family that will be around.


Inga said:


> I personally cannot wait to hear which dogs your son and wife chose and how you work out which breed you will pursue....When you do get puppy, pictures will be required.


I can't wait myself to see which dog my wife agrees to.  So far we are at a stand off, sort of, I am set on a WPG and she does not like it's size, but we only seen one WPG and are planning to visit a dog show in NJ on March 27,28 as well as pay a breeder a visit. Right now I am totally lost as to which other breed if not the WPG...


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> I can't wait myself to see which dog my wife agrees to.  So far we are at a stand off, sort of, I am set on a WPG and she does not like it's size, but we only seen one WPG and are planning to visit a dog show in NJ on March 27,28 as well as pay a breeder a visit. Right now I am totally lost as to which other breed if not the WPG...


Get a WPG, and feed him anti growth hormones.... (KIDDING, of course )
I have met a lot of dogs in my life, but can't remember if the dog I met was a WPG or a GWP (german wirehaired pointer). They look pretty much the same to me. Their dog was very laid back, well mannered, and hunted for a living. He wasn't a massive dog (intact male, a few years old), and was pretty athletic. Probably was a GWP, but it's been ages ago. Who knows.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

You shouldn't necessarily be frightened off of terriers. They are wonderful dogs for the right kind of people (masochists?). Do your research to see if bringing one into your family is a good fit. Talk to lots of terrier people to get a line on some good trainers who understand how to deal with terrier temperaments, and keep the trainer's number on speed dial. They are not typically dogs that you can take a couple of months of obedience classes with, and then consider yourself done with training. They always have their own ideas about things and they can remain active for years beyond the normal life span of larger breeds. A lot of 15 year old terriers have plenty of spark left in them.

Personally, I find a good terrier to be an irresistible package. I don't find them all that difficult to deal with. I think the two main problems with too many terriers is that: 1) some people buy them thinking they are getting a "small" dog, and end up with a dog who rules the house, and; 2) many casual breeders overdo the "hardness" thing, while others neglect temperament entirely. Terriers should be hard, but a well bred one should be extremely trainable to a very high standard of obedience. That's not to say they are necessarily easily trainable, but there's a reason you see Jack Russell Terriers earning their feed as TV and movie performers. JRTs are not considered to be the easiest of the terrier breeds, either.

Great dogs if you go into it with your eyes wide open.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Get a WPG, and feed him anti growth hormones.... (KIDDING, of course )


 I couldn't find anything when I googled it... but not a bad idea. 



LazyGRanch713 said:


> He wasn't a massive dog (intact male, a few years old), and was pretty athletic.


They are not massive but rather tall.



Marsh Muppet said:


> You shouldn't necessarily be frightened off of terriers. They are wonderful dogs for the right kind of people (masochists?). Do your research to see if bringing one into your family is a good fit.


I am not frightened but it doesn't look like a good fit for my family. I may endup going with a terrier in the end and deal with properly training the dog.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Well... here is a little update as some of you wanted to know the progress... 

Tomorrow I am going to see a breeder, her bitch is pregnant right now with the puppies due end of this month. She let's the puppies out after 8 weeks, so my puppy should be ready by end of June.

Here is a little problem I have and need your input. 

We are going on a two week vacation, my wife and I, mid July and will be home by August 1st.

Do I take the puppy home and let my 11 year old son handle him for the two weeks that we are gone? Do I ask the breeder if she can hold the puppy, until he's 12 weeks old, for us to come back? I don't even know if latter is an option the breeder would consider.

P.S. We settled on a Wirhaired Pointing Griffon.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Ask the breeder if she'll hold the puppy first. 

I assume you aren't leaving your 11 yo son home alone for two weeks? With a set of care instructions, an adult caretaker could probably manage but my preference would be for the pup to stay at the breeder's. That's a place that is set up for puppies/dogs with someone who knows what they're doing.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> I assume you aren't leaving your 11 yo son home alone for two weeks? ...


Well... He'll be with my mother-in-law at the Pocono's summer house, she's not a dog person, or any anymal person for that matter, and is strongly opposed. 
I am not too concerned about her opposition, but I don't know if my son will be able to manage the dog himself, especially when he's not at home.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Grish said:


> Well... He'll be with my mother-in-law at the Pocono's summer house, she's not a dog person, or any anymal person for that matter, and is strongly opposed.
> I am not too concerned about her opposition, but I don't know if my son will be able to manage the dog himself, especially when he's not at home.


A puppy is A LOT of work for an 11 year old with no help. He'll likely have to get up in the middle of the night to take the pup out to pee, or he'll have to clean the crate in the morning. He'll have to deal with the puppy antics and needs (nipping, getting into things they shouldn't, housetraining, etc) with no help....I think he'll be overwhelmed and by the end of the first week will resent the puppy.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Grish said:


> Well... here is a little update as some of you wanted to know the progress...
> 
> Tomorrow I am going to see a breeder, her bitch is pregnant right now with the puppies due end of this month. She let's the puppies out after 8 weeks, so my puppy should be ready by end of June.
> 
> ...


 I would explain all this to the breeder and there are two things you can ask: you can see if she will either keep the puppy longer OR, a better option, IMO is to see if the breeder would be willing to board the puppy when you're gone. I would not send the pup to the grandmothers house with your son. That's not fair to the puppy. If you cannot leave the pup with the breeder, I'd either wait for another litter or skip your vacation. No, I don't think people should NOT vacation with dogs but when you just get a puppy, i think you need to be there for the dog.
Congrats, if this works out for you, we'll expect pictures. Hope you find the right option


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> ...to see if the breeder would be willing to board the puppy when you're gone.


Won't it feel strange to a puppy to be with us for two weeks and then go back to the breeder for another two weeks... on top of this concern the breeder is two hours away from me and that's without traffic. 



InkedMarie said:


> ...wait for another litter or skip your vacation.


Skipping the vacation is not an option as it's been in the works for over a year now. Another litter is also problematic as this particular breeder will not have another litter for at least 8-9 months and the others are either too far or unresponsive... I'm really hoping she can keep the puppy for me until I come back as I read some breeders only let their puppies out after 12 weeks anyway.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Grish said:


> Won't it feel strange to a puppy to be with us for two weeks and then go back to the breeder for another two weeks... on top of this concern the breeder is two hours away from me and that's without traffic.
> 
> Skipping the vacation is not an option as it's been in the works for over a year now. Another litter is also problematic as this particular breeder will not have another litter for at least 8-9 months and the others are either too far or unresponsive... I'm really hoping she can keep the puppy for me until I come back as I read some breeders only let their puppies out after 12 weeks anyway.


I think it would feel stranger to the puppy to go to the grandmothers, who doesn't like animals, than to go to the breeders. Look at it this way, some people would board a puppy, if a pup that young can be boarded (don't think so, due to vaccs but am not sure) and this could be a boarding type of option. I hope the breeder will want to keep the puppy, that's the best thing. 
If she kept the pup til you got back, how old would he/she be?
As far as traveling a couple hours, that shouldn't be an issue, you need to do what's best for the dog. If she does agree to keep the puppy, be prepared that she may require you guys to go visit a few times to start some bonding


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> If she kept the pup til you got back, how old would he/she be?


The litter is due end of this month or early May, from what I understood but I'll know tomorrow for sure. So it'll be May, June and July... about 12 weeks old.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Grish said:


> The litter is due end of this month or early May, from what I understood but I'll know tomorrow for sure. So it'll be May, June and July... about 12 weeks old.


That sounds perfect, she'd only be keeping the pup an extra month. You'd better be very convincing when you meet the breeder LOL! Wirehaired pointing griffon huh? Lucky you!


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> That sounds perfect, she'd only be keeping the pup an extra month. You'd better be very convincing when you meet the breeder LOL! Wirehaired pointing griffon huh? Lucky you!


$1500 a pup and still hard to find... I'll be very convincing. ))))))))))


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Grish said:


> $1500 a pup and still hard to find... I'll be very convincing. ))))))))))


I paid $1200 for my petite basset griffon vendeen four years ago, $1500 doesn't sound bad (and I paid that much for one of my birds LOL)


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> I paid $1200 for my petite basset griffon vendeen four years ago, $1500 doesn't sound bad (and I paid that much for one of my birds LOL)


No, not too bad, but still a sizable amount. 

I saw one of the PBGV at the dog show and if it wasn't for their terrier like personalities I'll probably be getting the PBGV.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Just don't go forgetting the most important thing...

Pictures for us!


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

So.... I visited one breeder this past Saturday and I got a call from another breeder whom I'll be visiting this Sunday and I'll actually leave a deposit with one of them, finally. 

The first breeder I visited did not want to hold the dog for the extra few weeks I need, but said if she is available she'll board the dog, she has to schedule a back surgery around that time. Another option is that she'll have the next litter ready for delivery in early September. A little red flag for me was that she breeds with a partner that's in Michigan and all of the breeding is done there, on a farm, and the dogs are then shipped to her here. Probably legit as she's one of the breeders listed in the breed club registry. She did have a WPG in the house as her own dog.

The second breeder I'm going to see this Sunday will hold the dog for me as long as I've paid for it by the regular delivery time. She breeds the dogs at her location and held me on the phone for about a half an hour with a huge load of information about the breed and the dogs in general. I hope the personal visit goes as well as the phone call so I can just leave her my deposit. She's also listed in the breed club registry.

While I have you reading this post... I need some book recommendation. 

Already bought and read:

The Other End of the Leash
The Art of Raising a Puppy 
Thinking of buying:

How to Raise the Perfect Dog

How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend
The Culture Clash
My Smart Puppy
Maybe:

101 Dog Tricks
When Pigs Fly
Before and After Getting Your Puppy
The Complete Idiot's Guide

Advices? Thought?


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Grish said:


> So.... I visited one breeder this past Saturday and I got a call from another breeder whom I'll be visiting this Sunday and I'll actually leave a deposit with one of them, finally.
> 
> The first breeder I visited did not want to hold the dog for the extra few weeks I need, but said if she is available she'll board the dog, she has to schedule a back surgery around that time. Another option is that she'll have the next litter ready for delivery in early September. A little red flag for me was that she breeds with a partner that's in Michigan and all of the breeding is done there, on a farm, and the dogs are then shipped to her here. Probably legit as she's one of the breeders listed in the breed club registry. She did have a WPG in the house as her own dog.


Actually, this is 100% normal (the working with another breeder). And I don't think that she's being unreasonable in not wanting to keep the puppy an extra month. Boarding is one thing, but that full extra month is a LONG month. That is the MOST critical and MOST time-intensive part of puppy-raising, and it's double the work- especially if she's holding back two puppies (or more) to evaluate for show prospects. They need to be independently socialized EVERY DAY and get lots of one on one with people. Boarding for two weeks is one thing,b ut that full extra month is a LOT of work. 

Book list looks good and I'd DEFINITELY get Pigs FLy. 101 Dog Tricks is a fun book- not essential, but fun for ideasl 

Of the others, I think the Monks of New Skete book si better than the MIlan book, but I don't think either of them are fantastic. (My favorite puppy books at the moment are "Smart Puppy" by Kilcommons and "Building Blocks for Performance" which is much LESS about specific training and methods to use and more about how to think about developing your pup's potential to the fullest.)


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Dogstar said:


> Actually, this is 100% normal (the working with another breeder)...full extra month is a LOT of work.
> 
> Book list looks good and I'd DEFINITELY get Pigs FLy. 101 Dog Tricks is a fun book- not essential, but fun for ideasl
> 
> Of the others, I think the Monks of New Skete book si better than the MIlan book, but I don't think either of them are fantastic. (My favorite puppy books at the moment are "Smart Puppy" by Kilcommons and "Building Blocks for Performance" which is much LESS about specific training and methods to use and more about how to think about developing your pup's potential to the fullest.)


The extra time is totally personal and I don't blame her for wanting to let the dogs go as scheduled, hence the option of the next litter. Which may just be the way I'll go. 

The Pigs Fly books I may get if the dog will be stubborn as I think the other books will have enough information for a more sedate dog.

Smart Puppy looks great and I'll put it on my "Thinking of buying" list as it is more of a "Buy in the next month" list 

The performance book doesn't seem like a general training dog but rather if you REALLY want to have an active dog, which is not for me unless my kids get into dog tricks completely.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'd stay away from anything by Milan and The Monks of New Skete, their methods are rather harsh. Instead look at "The Complete Idiots Guide to positive Training" by Pamela Dennison and "Before and After Getting Your Puppy" by Ian Dunbar (as well as anything else by those two authors) both use operant conditioning as the training method which is much more reliable. I also reccomend "Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> I'd stay away from anything by Milan and The Monks of New Skete, their methods are rather harsh....


Not even a "maybe try other methods" but simply a "stay away"..... LOL

If it has worked for them for so long, and they actually help a lot of other people, I don't think it can warrant a "stay away" rating. 

I'll keep an eye on the Idiot's guide, but can you really trust the British and the second book?  100 people... really?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Grish said:


> So.... I visited one breeder this past Saturday and I got a call from another breeder whom I'll be visiting this Sunday and I'll actually leave a deposit with one of them, finally.
> 
> The first breeder I visited did not want to hold the dog for the extra few weeks I need, but said if she is available she'll board the dog, she has to schedule a back surgery around that time. Another option is that she'll have the next litter ready for delivery in early September. A little red flag for me was that she breeds with a partner that's in Michigan and all of the breeding is done there, on a farm, and the dogs are then shipped to her here. Probably legit as she's one of the breeders listed in the breed club registry. She did have a WPG in the house as her own dog.
> 
> ...


I really like the Other End of the Leash and Culture Clash. I'd definitely recommend that one. Really anything by Patricia McConnell is good that I've read.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Grish said:


> Not even a "maybe try other methods" but simply a "stay away"..... LOL
> 
> If it has worked for them for so long, and they actually help a lot of other people, I don't think it can warrant a "stay away" rating.
> 
> I'll keep an eye on the Idiot's guide, but can you really trust the British and the second book?  100 people... really?


The Monks have actually retracted their status on Alpha Rolling, but other than that I don't know what they're all about. Cesar Milan seems to be changing his tune a bit, he still expects certain things and is no nonsense, but he seems to have embraced things like food, rewards, and praise, which is a great thing IMO. I like his basic philosophy (exercise, discipline, affection), and his ideas on energy. The first couple of seasons he was way too dominance minded for my tastes, but the last couple of seasons have been kind of fun to watch. Any trainer who is willing to try new things and use all the tools in their training toolbox, and evolve with it, is worth some acknowledgment.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I really like *the Other End of the Leash* and Culture Clash. I'd definitely recommend that one. Really anything by Patricia McConnell is good that I've read.


Best book ever, so informative and interesting, and a very fun read!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Grish said:


> Not even a "maybe try other methods" but simply a "stay away"..... LOL
> 
> If it has worked for them for so long, and they actually help a lot of other people, I don't think it can warrant a "stay away" rating.
> 
> I'll keep an eye on the Idiot's guide, but can you really trust the British and the second book?  100 people... really?




I used methods like the one Milan and the monks advise, I'll never use them again now that I know better. I k ow two dogs that Milan ' helped' that had actually shut down and later exploded. Both had to be PUT DOWN due to thier aggression, so yes, I advise people to stay away from these methods. 

As far as 'trusting' a Brit, that Brit is a veterinary Behaviorist with credentials as long as my arm. I've been to his seminars and his techniques are excellent and he's the reason there are PuppyK classes in the first place (he was the first trainer to recognize that dogs can be trained before six months old). The others authors I reccomend are either Americans or Swedes. Dennison has rehabbed many dogs and Rugaas book on dog body language is a must for reading your dog and recognizing stress signs.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Grish said:


> The Pigs Fly books I may get if the dog will be stubborn as I think the other books will have enough information for a more sedate dog.


GET IT. 

I simply cannot lavish enough praise on this book. It is FANTASTIC. It is hands down THE manual for using motivation to get your dog to work WITH you. It has the BEST explanation of shaping I have EVER read. It is geared towards dogs that are not defaulty programmed to watch your every move, but EVERY handler will benefit from reading it no matter what breed of dog you have. 

OMGASGSFSD I LOVE THIS BOOK.

All of McConnell's work is supreme, and very enjoyable to read. Ian Dunbar is also very accessible and full of good, practical, I-need-advice-right-NOW help.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I really like the Other End of the Leash and Culture Clash. I'd definitely recommend that one. Really anything by Patricia McConnell is good that I've read.


Great book, a little tough language to read. Also, it was a little eye opening for my 11 year old, he read the book before me, when she talks about bonobos having sex for... 



LazyGRanch713 said:


> Any trainer who is willing to try new things and use all the tools in their training toolbox, and evolve with it, is worth some acknowledgment.


The idea is to gather all possible information and decide what works for you, as far as your character and personality, and not follow everything to the dot as professionals simply cannot put everything on paper and may have missed something obvious to them but not you.



cshellenberger said:


> I know two dogs that Milan ' helped' that had actually shut down and later exploded. Both had to be PUT DOWN due to thier aggression...


Personally helped or people used his techniques?



cshellenberger said:


> ...that Brit is a veterinary Behaviorist with credentials as long as my arm.


 I'll look into his book some more and for now put it on my maybe list. 



cshellenberger said:


> The others authors I reccomend are either Americans or Swedes. Dennison has rehabbed many dogs and Rugaas book on dog body language is a must for reading your dog and recognizing stress signs.


Aren't those more suited for a trainer or a troubled owner?


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

How far is the second breeder from you? Are you able to go visit the puppy during the "extra" time with the breeder?


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> GET IT.


I will in a month or two.



InkedMarie said:


> How far is the second breeder from you? Are you able to go visit the puppy during the "extra" time with the breeder?


During the "extra time" I'll be be away on vacation, so no, I won't be able to visit then.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> GET IT.
> 
> I simply cannot lavish enough praise on this book. It is FANTASTIC. It is hands down THE manual for using motivation to get your dog to work WITH you. It has the BEST explanation of shaping I have EVER read. It is geared towards dogs that are not defaulty programmed to watch your every move, but EVERY handler will benefit from reading it no matter what breed of dog you have.
> 
> ...



Now I want to read it. Lord knows it would help Mia, haha!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

My thoughts on training.....

Been messing with dogs my entire life. Been training dogs off and on for hire for over 20 years. I have my dog business incorporated. 

I look at, watch, read, etc EVERYONE.....

Milan does some stuff I HATE. But he also has some good ideas. I like his way of thinking about always remaining calm and assertive. A couple of other things I like.

I like some of the Monks stuff as well. Some I don't.

Heck I like some of Koehlers thoughts. 

The best way to become better is to always watch and always learn. Watch someone, read a book, and take away the things you like and forget the rest. 

I have always thought the best way to start the third world war is to put ten experienced dog trainers with a track record for success in a room and give them a list of ten training scenarios and have them agree on the best method to teach each one. 

And sometimes you can learn as much from the guys you don't like as the guys you do. 

And.... Every dog is different. Different breeds are different. Individual dogs are different. You might even use the same method on two completely different dogs but present it differently. You are not going to train a hard dog and a soft dog in the same manner. The key is to have lots of tools in your mental tool box to work with. 

And some trainers are better with certain personality and temperament types than others. I will tell anyone straight up, that I am better with High drive, high energy, hard dogs. Those types of dogs are my first love. Can I train a low drive, low energy, soft dog? Sure. I can do a pretty good job at it.


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> My thoughts on training.....
> ...
> I look at, watch, read, etc EVERYONE.....
> ...
> ...


The above is so true for everything, not only dog training, and this is the way I am planning to approach my dog's training.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Grish said:


> Aren't those more suited for a trainer or a troubled owner?


No, everyone who's around dogs should learn to read not ONLY their own dog, but others it interacts with. Turid also has a DVD out that goes along with the book (which is more of a booklet) where you can see the interactions as they take place. When you learn how dogs interact and what they're saying to each other you can stop trouble before it starts. Seeing that your dog is stressed, or recognizing that your dog is stressing another dog will help you to know when to intervene. It will also help you to see the flaws in Milan's judgement when he see's a dog that's looks away and licks it's lips (a calming signal) and calls it 'ignoring' the owner when all it's doing is saying it's not a threat.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> No, everyone who's around dogs should learn to read not ONLY their own dog, but others it interacts with. Turid also has a DVD out that goes along with the book (which is more of a booklet) where you can see the interactions as they take place. When you learn how dogs interact and what they're saying to each other you can stop trouble before it starts. Seeing that your dog is stressed, or recognizing that your dog is stressing another dog will help you to know when to intervene. It will also help you to see the flaws in Milan's judgement when he see's a dog that's looks away and licks it's lips (a calming signal) and calls it 'ignoring' the owner when all it's doing is saying it's not a threat.



Dog training 101...... You cannot train a dog until you understand the dog. You may get some commands out of the dog. But if you really want to go someplace, you need to learn how to read dogs.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

I would avoid the first breeder. Even if listed in the Breed Club directory, that seems strange to have the pups shipped to her. I would want to see at least one parent and where the pups have been staying etc. 

If you like the second breeder, I would go with them over the first one.


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## Airedale Mom (Apr 1, 2010)

Grish, get the dog you want. Just go into it with your eyes wide open. It IS true that the breeds you are considering will be difficult for the first time dog owner, but you sound sane, sensible, informed (or at least open to learning), and up to the challenge. And it WILL be a challenge. 

Terriers in general are very energetic. A walk around the block won't do. Think in terms of miles when the dog is mature. These breeds are bred to be independent thinkers. They won't do well in the backyard by themselves all day. They will think of all sorts of fun and interesting things to do (at least to them!) Terriers like to dig and both tend to bark a lot. You might want to consider this if you have neighbors nearby. 

A 5yr old could be a problem with either of these breeds unless constantly supervised. The 10yr old is old enough that he could be taught the proper way to interact with the dog.

Both breeds need professional grooming on a regular basis or you need to learn to do it yourself. Your looking at least $60 and up every 6-8 weeks plus they need a brush out daily and the beards need a daily washing.

I agree with others here that Ceaser Milan is an accident waiting to happen. What you want is positive reinforcement training NOT negative. You'll need to invest in a lot of time for socialization both in and out of puppy kindergarten and obedience classes. Classes are non-negotiable. They are a must. 

Lastly, we need to talk about money. Initial cost of dog from REPUTABLE breeder, vetting, crates, quality food, grooming table, grooming supplies and we are not talking about a few hundred dollars here. You are starting in the four figure range.

Your wife's allergies is what concerns me the most. The bottom line is you are looking at having to give up the dog if she can't tolerate it. It would be very irresponsible to get a dog if there is even a slight doubt that she will be allergic.

Good luck and let us know how it turns out for you.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> My thoughts on training.....
> 
> Been messing with dogs my entire life. Been training dogs off and on for hire for over 20 years. I have my dog business incorporated.
> 
> ...


Not only this, but if you're working with the general public and their dogs, it's important to know what they're seeing (Cesar Milan, The Monks, Victoria Stillwell, etc) so you have a first hand idea on what they're thinking and/or what they've tried. 
I don't train, but my favorite dogs to work with are the shy, terrified, shut-down types. I love bringing a nervous and scared dog around and out of their shell. If they're being boarded for a week, I can usually make quite a bit of progress. We boarded the sweetest little retriever/chow mix over Spring Break, and she was in shut down mode the first night. By day 3 she was happy to see everyone and would greet us at the door, tail wagging. Very rewarding to me  I fell hopelessly in love with that dog!


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## Grish (Mar 1, 2010)

Airedale Mom said:


> Grish, get the dog you want.
> .
> .
> .
> Good luck and let us know how it turns out for you.


Looks like you didn't read through the posts, and who can blame you. 

I am settled on a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. 

The classes will happen, at least in the beginning. 

The cost is fine, I know what I'm getting into... unless the vet bills get out of control, then is "sleep tight" for the dog.  (...just kidding...) I am hoping that breeds reputation for being healthy will be true.


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## Airedale Mom (Apr 1, 2010)

Grish said:


> Looks like you didn't read through the posts, and who can blame you.
> 
> I am settled on a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon.
> 
> ...


I stopped reading when your post got hijacked by the self-appointed training gurus. Excellent choice with the WPG. I'm sure it will be a wonderful experience for you and your family. Don't forget..we love puppy pictures


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