# Pet pees when given a command



## 05nsn350z (Apr 24, 2011)

So I have two amazing dogs, one is a jack russell and the other is a shiba inu, Both females. My jack russell is 5 months old and I am having great success with her training. My Shiba on the other hand. She is about 6 months and I have had a lot of trouble training her everytime I give her a command, she either wont listen or get scared and pee, and when I correct her (using Don sullivan's methods) she also pees. I never hit my dogs but i believe she might have been exposed to it before we got her. I have been trying for some time and I'm not gaining any ground. also she cowers behind my wife when I try to train her. she also doesnt listen to her but seeks her for comfort. any help would be great. btw this is my first post on this forum so bare with me. Thanks


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

You may not hit the dog, but if you're using DSM you're likely using aversion and minimal reinforcement, right? Try training the dog by maximizing the value of reinforcement and be hands off. See if the dog's behavior is more favorable.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Timid and shy dogs are better off being trained hands off, using luring or shaping, and no aversives.


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## 05nsn350z (Apr 24, 2011)

ok.... dsm? im guessing don sullivan method? the hands off method, where could i explore this more? are there any good instuctional videos on this? thanks for the help


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Agree with the above. For fearful or soft dogs just looking at them can make them anxious. you need to take the pressure off. for now no eye contact no looming over her. speak softly.let her come to you. reward with yummy treats when you get the behavior you want. you need to build trust with her and harsh commands or demanding too much too fast will slow your progress.

do a search for fearful dogs on the forum and you'll find some great threads on this topic. TWo good books are help for your fearful dog by nicole wilde and cautious canine by patricia mcconnell.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Oh dear. Don Sullivan's methods are not the way to deal with a fearful, submissive urinator. Honestly I don't think they are for any dog, IMO. 

The books recommended above are good. Also take a look at "The Idiot's Guide to Positive Training" by Pamela Dennison..it gives a good background on how to use marker training (no aversives) and is helpful if you are not familiar with dog friendly dog training. 

The Fearful Dog threads here on DF have tons of information, www.fearfuldogs.com is also a great resource. 

Just so you are clear: teaching a dog something does not need to have punishment and rewards increase learning and confidence. Using food as a reward for training does NOT make a dog aggressive as Mr. Sullivan seems to believe. I think eventually you will be grateful for your fearful dog and all she has to teach you about understanding dogs, how they learn and being a partner to your dog, rather than a taskmaster.


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## 05nsn350z (Apr 24, 2011)

I was a little on the edge about the no treats thing, I figured it wouldnt make a dog aggressive, but rather do some thing for a treat rather than respect. With my jack russell this method of training works very well, I do still give treats but only for the learning process and then i've been weening them off. I tried his method for about 30 min a couple days ago and knew it wasnt the right way so i stopped and started searching for other methods. I will definitely look into this reading material. I've been downloading many videos on different training methods so i will look into those as well.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Check out http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup. Lots of good videos on training.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I find it weird how people who use punishment think the dog obeys they out of 'respect', and if a dog gets a treat for doing the same behaviour it "only obeys to get the treat". It's not respect, the dog is only obeying to avoid punishment. 

Yes, dogs who get a treat or a toy as a reward obey because they want the reward. Nothing wrong with that. I work because I want to get paid, I don't work out of respect for the company.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I find it weird how people who use punishment think the dog obeys they out of 'respect', and if a dog gets a treat for doing the same behaviour it "only obeys to get the treat". It's not respect, the dog is only obeying to avoid punishment.


I know. . .I consider reward and punishment to be exactly the same (in regards to getting the behavior you want; of course punishment has a higher chance of causing harmful side effects), it puzzles me to think of any difference. In the case of rewards, a person (or animal) does something to get the reward. In cases of punishment, a person (or animal) does something to avoid punishment. Neither behavior is particularly meaningful. So if a dog ONLY does something to get a reward, that's not great, but if a dog ONLY does something to avoid punishment, suddenly it's all meaningful and the dog "respects" you? That's ridiculous. People are weird.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Oh my. I don't know this Don Sullivan. But I see no need for "corrections" when teaching sit, lay down, stay etc..

I like all the previous posts. Especially Lilfuzzy's

I would also suggest viewing all the info at this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/93871-training-overly-submissive-dog.html
It includes lots of info on living with shy dogs and it has a bunch of book suggestions.

Treats do NOT make a dog aggressive. But scarying a dog can certainly make him/her defensive - which is often read by humans as "aggressive"

But if you don't like food treats, then try other rewards like toys, praise. Or life rewards. When the dog sits, he gets to go for a walk. When the dog watches you, he can pee on a bush, etc..

Many years ago, I wasn't a fan of treats mainly because I thought they were unhealthy for a dog. But soon I realized that dogs are nothing like humans. Great tasting and good for you can go hand in hand. My dogs now get treats all the time - mostly meat and veggies - no wheat/sugar/ artificially colored cookies.
None or them are aggressive.

[doesn't like to listen]
Please please dont think this way. You are placing a human judgement on dogs. 
It's an easy way to place blame on the dog instead of looking at what you might need to change to make yourself more interesting and less scary. 

Dogs do things that are rewarding, they cease doing things that aren't rewarding and they do things to avoid getting hurt or the fear of getting hurt. That't it.
They don't "defy"; they don't "not listen" they don't do things out of "spite"

I think a great book for you to check out would be 
Bones Would Rain From the Sky by Susanne Clotheir: http://amzn.to/huS6ik

Many other books listed in the thread link above
Please give up on Mr Sullivan

Best of luck to you.

P.S. in the other thread, I suggested that the OP take at least one week off from training to give himself and the dog a break and time to de-stress. You might also consider this. 
Give yourself some time to rething your methods. 
The dog is obviously trying to tell you something.



Willowy said:


> suddenly it's all meaningful and the dog "respects" you? That's ridiculous. People are weird.


Great point. Being scary doesn't equal respect.

Oh. Just remembered something that Ian Dunbar suggests. Measure out your dog's food ration for the day. Put it in a pouch and hand out small amounts for good behavior. 
Dog doesn't lunge at mail carrier, a piece of food. 
Dog goes potty outside, a piece of food.
That way, you aren't giving treats. you are just feeding the dog his own meal.

Another behaviorist (I think Pat Miller) says that "There is no law that says dogs have to eat out of a bowl" 

See this link for an excellent video from Dunbar (it's also in the thread link I just posted)
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html


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## 05nsn350z (Apr 24, 2011)

Thanks for all the great ideas so far..... yes fo common commands I dont use a physical force to correct(sit down come ect). lil_fuzzy i deffineatly see your point but, I work for respect of my company, my country that is.... I am in the US Army. being that the army is essentially a pack this is where I get some of the ideals of dog training from, If you have a little screw up you get smoked (physical), If you have a big one you get jail time (kennel) and reduction in pay (treats toys). now just to be clear these arent my first dogs, I have trained the family choc lab, and springer, when i was much younger of course. using the traditional techniques my Jack is doing exceptionally well. I'm just not use to the Fearful type of dog. 

On the topic of giving my puppy a break, I am I will be going on leave and coming back to the US for 3 weeks on the 4th of may.... I am leaving my pets at a pet hotel at a post here in korea. they have a great rep. and some people even said they noticed huge advances in potty training after they returned.... although I really dont want to leave them there, they will receive the best care here while i am gone.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

05nsn350z said:


> I work for respect of my company, my country that is.... I am in the US Army. being that the army is essentially a pack this is where I get some of the ideals of dog training from,


I appreciate you serving our country. I spent 20 years in the military myself and I have high respect for the military. But your dog isn't in the military and doesn't understand the military.

This once again seems like placing human values on a dog.

The military is great at what they do.
But there are a lot of highly trained specialists in the dog world, who have studied dogs. I suggest reading some of their stuff. as mentioned in the link in my other post.

I know you read Sullivan but as you can see, his methods are scarying your dog.

And even if it worked for the other dogs, this dog is another individual.

Time outs are fine. But I suggest not using the dog's crate or kennel as punishment. That should always be a happy place. If the dog nips you or something, you can just walk out of the room.

For sit, stay, etc.. no need for time outs or any other correction. If the dog doesn't figure it out, take a step back, regroup and re-evalute your method.

The dog seems comfortable with your wife. Perhaps she can also provide some pointers.

Now, I've done a lot of shelter volunteering and spent a lot of time with shy dogs (I provide a bunch of info in that link) and dogs who were labeled "aggressive" but they were really scared. I often heard "well, he just likes you because you don't make him do anything." Well in the beginning, with a shy dog, the main thing is just gaining trust. Training is fine as well as long as it isn't forced. 

Not using physical force is great. But I'm confused on the term "correction" you used in your first post. If the dog doesn't sit when you ask, what do you do?


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## 05nsn350z (Apr 24, 2011)

For my shiba What I mean by correction, for sit I gently lift on her chin a press down on her rear. give her the "atta girl" and a little petting and try again.... I only do this for a few minutes to make her feel like she isnt being forced.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Dear OP
Thanks for the quck response. There is no need to touch a dog at all during basic commands - sit, lay down, stay, etc..
Pusing on the butt is uncomfortable. 
and pushing on the butt is force.

Additionally, dogs learn faster if you help them figure out stuff rather than doing it for them.
Another poster suggested the kikopup youtube channel. She is terrific.

Here is my "sit" instructional video. If a lure doesn't work or if you don't like luring, simply wait for the dog to sit and then give the command sit. You have all the time in the world.








> Here is my "sit" instructional video.


I should note that although I used treats to teach this command, my dogs no longer need treats in order to perform it. It was a matter of proofing and fading. 
I now ask for sits before opening the door, before pets, etc..


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