# Thoughts on Grey Hound racing



## MusherChic

Well first off I am not trying to start any arguments or anything, I am just hoping for an open discussion on Grey Hound racing. (I'm also not talking about anybody on this forum.) What are your thoughts, opinions?? 
I will go first.
I do agree with GH racing, I am not against it in anyway. However, I do not like the few bad apples that you will find in the sport as you do with all sports. There is nothing you can really do though to stop that. You can't control the world. I don't like that the people in this sport who do, do it right get thrown under the bus and are all considered abusers by the people who don't like GH racing. Its not an abusing sport, these dogs are athletes that are bred and love to run. 
Now if you look at it this way, we are all pet owners on this forum or pet lovers. Just because some people in the world abuse their pets it doesn't mean we are all pet abusers, right? 
I love the fact that these dogs are being alowed to do what they love! I wish people would realize and give credit to the GH racers who do do things right. 
Its ok if your are against it, I do not critisize. I just hope that you would learn about it, maybe watch a race live or on youtube, chat with somebody who does race and get some insight on it. If you are still against it thats fine, there is nothing wrong with that. I just hope that you would have done some of those things above before you make your decision. We all are different people with different opinions. Thats whats great about this world. If we were all the same, we would be just plain boring! lol
I was having a brainstorm about GH racing earlier and I thought I would post my thoughts and opinions here. I was on another forum and there was a thread about GH racing and everybody was against it. 
Anyways those are MY thoughts and opinions. Now its your turn!  ( please keep in mind these are coming from a kids point of view...)


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## Keechak

I love greyhound racing and I think it's a great sport for the dogs.
It is important for people to understand that abuse is NOT part of greyhound racing, does it happen? yes but animal abuse happens in all parts of this country including in homes that own pet dogs. MOST of the people in the greyhound racing world treat their dogs great. It's just a few of a really big kennels that have been busted for abuse and saddly because of the size of their operations those are the people that make the news.

When pet dog owners say "I Hate greyhound racing, dogs are abused! The whole thing should be outlawed" I say to them "I hate pet dog ownership, some of those dogs are horribly abused! The whole thing should be outlawed" and they will look at me really wierd and then I have to explain that I was mocking them and explain why what they said was stupid.


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## MusherChic

Keechak said:


> When pet dog owners say "I Hate greyhound racing, dogs are abused! The whole thing should be outlawed" I say to them "I hate pet dog ownership, some of those dogs are horribly abused! The whole thing should be outlawed" and they will look at me really wierd and then I have to explain that I was mocking them and explain why what they said was stupid.


 haha! Thats great!! Can I use that?? lol Thats basically what I was trying to say. I have a hard time explaining things out loud. lol


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## Keechak

I saw an anti greyhound racing advert say something like "Racing dogs spend 20 hours every day in a cage" with a "sad" looking dog in the ad.

OK lets analyze this, IF it's true.
The average dog sleeps 15-18 hours a day, So that means the dog is awake in the kennel 5-2 hours a day, some of that time spent eating.
8-12 of those hours take place in complete darkness (aka nighttime) 
The other four hours the dogs spend running their hearts out and having the time of their lives. 
How many dogs actually get four whole hours almost everyday completely devoted to what they were born to do?


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## Nargle

I would like to learn more about greyhound racing. I'm not opposed to the actual races themselves, however, I am strongly opposed to keeping dogs kenneled for extreme periods of time with little to no human interaction. I think the line, to me, is drawn when people stop viewing their dogs as living, breathing beings that need to be treated with respect and care, and start viewing them as objects of personal gain (be it to win races, win dog shows, guard your property, or produce puppies for profit). That's when corners start being cut and the dog gets the short end of the deal.

I do not personally know enough about greyhound racing to form an opinion yet, but I would like to learn about the kinds of conditions they're being kept in, the way they're being bred, etc. The above statement is just a general opinion, not specifically referring to greyhound racing, but I thought it was relevant.



Keechak said:


> I saw an anti greyhound racing advert say something like "Racing dogs spend 20 hours every day in a cage" with a "sad" looking dog in the ad.
> 
> OK lets analyze this, IF it's true.
> The average dog sleeps 15-18 hours a day, So that means the dog is awake in the kennel 5-2 hours a day, some of that time spent eating.
> 8-12 of those hours take place in complete darkness (aka nighttime)
> The other four hours the dogs spend running their hearts out and having the time of their lives.
> How many dogs actually get four whole hours almost everyday completely devoted to what they were born to do?


(As I said before, I don't know enough to form an actual opinion, but for the sake of learning, I'm playing devil's advocate for now)
Actually I have heard (not sure if this is true) that dogs only race every other day or every three days. So perhaps these dogs aren't getting out every day. Also, it's not as if greyhound racing is NASCAR... the races are only a few minutes long (not sure exactly how long) not hours long. And only so many dogs can be on the track at once. I wonder how much of that four hours is actually spend running and not waiting for your few minutes of sprinting? 

My dog probably doesn't get 4 straight hours of pure exercise. And he does sleep a lot. However, his waking hours are filled with enrichment and stimulation. He visits new places, meets new dogs, plays with puzzle toys, and we spend probably several hours over the day just training and working his brain. He is not just sitting in a kennel twiddling his dewclaws. I wonder if the four hours outside of the kennel really make up for the 20 hours of solitude? You say they have the "times of their lives," but would you say the same about a child who is let out of his room for four hours a day to run amok and have a total hyper spaz attack, just to be put back in the same boring room for the rest of the day?

I ask these questions because I really am curious about the kinds of conditions these dogs are being kept in. Are there humans there interacting with these dogs, training them and providing mental stimulation? Do they get toys and puzzles to play with? Especially treat dispensing toys that challenge the brain? Do they visit a variety of places and situations (including home situations), and are they socialized properly as one would expect for any other dog? If not, I'm also curious to learn about how retired racing greyhounds adapt to the life of an average pet.


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## Willowy

^^What Nargle said/asked.

I also don't know enough about Greyhound racing to develop a full opinion. I'm inclined to disapprove only because I disapprove of gambling, LOL. I know Greyhounds love to run, I don't think the actual racing part is bad in any way. But the rest of their lives? I don't know enough. 

In addition to Nargle's questions, I'd also like to know: how many of them are killed when their usefulness is over? I know a lot fewer are killed now because of the Greyhound rescues, but I'm sure the rescues can't save all of them. In general I think it's wrong for someone to make money off an animal, then kill it when it's no longer profitable.


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## doginthedesert

I also know very little about the sport, not really enough to have an opinion. 

I do remember a comment that a family friend (who is a vet) said to me once. We saw an anti-greyhound racing commercial that said a lot of stuff about the dogs spending 20 hours a day in a cage and living in their own feces and lots of other awful stuff. I turned to her and said "do you think that's true?" and she told me "think about it this way, if that was true would those dogs be winning races?" And I think she really has a point. To some extent the dogs have to be kept somewhat well, just so that they can remain in top physical condition.

My worry is about the large commercial tracks, where the dogs are really just for profit, no one actually loves or cares for them. But maybe there are people who love and care for their dogs and race them. Like I said I really don't know enough to really judge anything.


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## Nargle

doginthedesert said:


> I also know very little about the sport, not really enough to have an opinion.
> 
> I do remember a comment that a family friend (who is a vet) said to me once. We saw an anti-greyhound racing commercial that said a lot of stuff about the dogs spending 20 hours a day in a cage and living in their own feces and lots of other awful stuff. I turned to her and said "do you think that's true?" and she told me "think about it this way, if that was true would those dogs be winning races?" And I think she really has a point. To some extent the dogs have to be kept somewhat well, just so that they can remain in top physical condition.
> 
> My worry is about the large commercial tracks, where the dogs are really just for profit, no one actually loves or cares for them. But maybe there are people who love and care for their dogs and race them. Like I said I really don't know enough to really judge anything.


In my opinion, being kept in decent physical shape is not synonymous with being treating humanely... True, if they were living in truly horrid conditions with no thought of their health, most would surely die before they ever reached the track. Keep a dog in a clean kennel, feed it, vet it, give it the bare minimum of daily exercise to keep its muscles toned and you've got a dog that can race... but does that really mean they're being treated humanely? I think a dog's mind is just as important as their body in determining whether or not a situation is cruel or humane. A healthy dog locked away in a cage isn't necessarily a happy one... This is why I'm asking questions about the kinds of mental stimulation and human interaction these dogs are receiving.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Nargle said:


> In my opinion, being kept in decent physical shape is not synonymous with being treating humanely... True, if they were living in truly horrid conditions with no thought of their health, most would surely die before they ever reached the track. Keep a dog in a clean kennel, feed it, vet it, give it the bare minimum of daily exercise to keep its muscles toned and you've got a dog that can race...


no. that's not enough. temperament plays a big part in how well a dog races...too spooked of a dog and it wont run very well or wont run at all.


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## Nargle

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no. that's not enough. temperament plays a big part in how well a dog races...too spooked of a dog and it wont run very well or wont run at all.


That's true, but breeding dogs with stable temperaments does not mean the dogs are happy with their living conditions. That is what I'm mainly concerned about. Though I am also very interested in learning about what kinds of ethics are involved in the breeding of racing greyhounds.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Nargle said:


> That's true, but breeding dogs with stable temperaments does not mean the dogs are happy with their living conditions. That is what I'm mainly concerned about. Though I am also very interested in learning about what kinds of ethics are involved in the breeding of racing greyhounds.


temperament isnt all breeding. temperament is also heavily dependant on environment. especially with a breed as sensitive as greys.


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## Nargle

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> temperament isnt all breeding. temperament is also heavily dependant on environment. especially with a breed as sensitive as greys.


Could you elaborate? Do you have any information on the conditions that racing greyhounds are kept in?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Nargle said:


> Could you elaborate? Do you have any information on the conditions that racing greyhounds are kept in?


a little. I recently got a new neighbor who has a rather odd pack of dogs. she has two greyhounds, two sibes, and two pit bulls. each pair is a team that pulls her in one of those weird little cart setups you see sometimes, which team she uses depends on where she is going to be and what the weather is. We recently got into a discussion of pulling and racing as each breed is involved in one, the other or both. she bought both her greys from a racing kennel for this express purpose. 

from what i know from the breeding mentors and my own studies in biology...temperament has two factors, nature and nurture. Natural temperament is a result of genetics and is very general in terms. a naturally spooky dog will spook about EVERYTHING. Conditioned temperament is lol..duh..a result of conditioning. a dog with conditioned spookiness wont spook at everything..they spook at specifics. Either way, spooking is spooking.

with that said, from what she told me and from what i learned speaking to the kennel owner where the greyhound who bit my son originated from..

yes they are kept in kennels. they have to go through at the very least a minimal amount of desensitzation and socialization because if they dont...they run the risk of a dog who can't handle the amount of people and the noise and hustle and bustle of the tracks. they spend most of their time with the other dogs of the kennel. Most racing greys are fed at least partially raw and have extremely competant medical care. if they dont..they dont win and considering the cost of purchasing a racing grey, even the most callous owner would HAVE to treat them well to expect performance. but here's the thing...the people who own the kennels dont usually own all the dogs in their kennel..a lot of times you have a single owner per dog. kind of like how many horses are kept. they're stabled at a barn but are owned by people who rent a stall from the barn owner. My neighbor speculates that that sort of set up may be part of the problem

Im not saying ALL greys are treated well..and granted it's second hand info..but from what i gather..you can't abuse them and expect performance. you have to do at least some exposure to friendly human contact to expect performance.

like i said..it's secondhand info...but it does come from an owner of racing bred greys and was somewhat confirmed in different terms by a man who actually owns one of these kennels(my son was bit by his father's sister's retired racing grey and when i was trying to decide how to approach that particular situation i contacted the kennel owner to try to get some clues to Freddie's past.)


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## NeedleNoseLuvR

The top racing prospects go at auction for $20,000 to $25,000. Most racing dogs cost several thousand. 

Greyhounds are not left alone in kennels and deprived of human company. There are kennel managers and helpers at the kennels from very early in the morning to late at night. Dogs are bathed, checked over, fed and turned out. Their crates are cleaned. They are talked to and petted. Most kennels have a radio set to what ever type music the workers think helps the dogs.

Greyhounds are turned out into excerise pens at least twice a day. They are turned out in same-sex groups and they all wear muzzles. Same-sex groups because the greys are intact. The muzzles protect the dogs' thin skin from tears while playing or if a fight breaks out. The turnouts are supervised by kennel helpers and poop is scooped almost immediately. In the pens the dogs can dig in the sand, layaround and nap in the sun or play with each other.

As Zim mentioned, greyhounds are fed a mix of kibble and raw, plus vitamins, veggies and electrolytes. Sometimes cooked carbs such as rice, oatmeal, pasta or barley is added. The carb depends on what the manager thinks the dogs need to race well. It can depend on the time of year (hot/cold).

The original retired racer adoption groups started in the 1960's by the racing kennels themselves. At that time, HSUS and other animal welfare/rights groups told everyone that greyhounds were too vicious to have as pets. Slowly over time this has evolved to what we have today. The goal of adoption groups is 100% adoption, or as close as possible. Now HSUS and PETA and others want to end racing and basically end the greyhound as a breed bred for function. 

There will always be people who will abuse animals in their care. Unfortunately, greyhound people have bad apples too. It bothers me, that with so many hundreds of thousands of pet dogs that are killed each year in shelters and the thousands that are abused and live horrible lives, people get upset about greyhounds being used for what they are bred for.

As for gambling, humans have been betting on just about anything possible for as long as there have been humans. It's a favorite human passtime. 

To say that you (generic 'you') are against gambling or racing owners making a profit off of their dogs is hypocrisy, if you are not a vegan living the greenest life possible. Several someones made money off of the steak, chicken, eggs, milk, etc that you eat. Someone made money off of the leather you buy. 

My information on racing kennels comes from a greyhound forum I belong to. Several threads have been about how the dogs are housed and fed, complete with pictures. 

I have visited a greyhound breeding farm when I bought Lacey. It was very clean, no piles of trash or old wrecked machinery sitting around. The dogs were clean, happy, bright eyed and waggy tails. They had access to long runs with well kept grass. I was thrilled to see that all the horrible stories I had heard about the farms were not true.

I bought Lacey when she was five months old. She's now eight years old. I brought home a happy well-socialized puppy who loved everyone she met. She still does. She was also crate trained and had her dew claws removed. She was up to date on vaccinations and had been wormed several times. All I had to do was get her rabies shot.


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## LazyGRanch713

Keechak said:


> I saw an anti greyhound racing advert say something like *"Racing dogs spend 20 hours every day in a cage" with a "sad" looking dog in the ad.*
> 
> OK lets analyze this, IF it's true.
> The average dog sleeps 15-18 hours a day, So that means the dog is awake in the kennel 5-2 hours a day, some of that time spent eating.
> 8-12 of those hours take place in complete darkness (aka nighttime)
> The other four hours the dogs spend running their hearts out and having the time of their lives.
> How many dogs actually get four whole hours almost everyday completely devoted to what they were born to do?


The same people who adopt the same "sad" face as the dogs have pet dogs who spend all night in a cage, all day in a cage while the owner is at work, and recieve a 15 minute walk and a pat on the head in the evening. 
The same thing goes to people who act like having a working LGD that "lives outside" is a horrible way for a dog to live. The poor things would rather be inside, right? Wrong...(same with working sheepdogs).
Oh and don't even get me started on the sled dog thing  "Oh...CHAIIINNSSSSS...the dogs are CHAIINNNEEEDDDD!!!! To this eetsy weensy dog houses!! CHAAAINEEDDD..."


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## NeedleNoseLuvR

Actually, greyhounds do not race everyday. Each dog is allowed to race two to three times during a two week period. The four hours everyday is probably the turnout time. Gee, the AR groups forget to mention turnouts.

HSUS and PETA want you to believe that greyhounds are raced into the dirt and abused horribly. Therefore, in the AR mindset, racing greyhounds should go extinct to protect them from this horrible life. They believe the same thing about working sleddogs.


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## Willowy

NeedleNoseLuvR said:


> The goal of adoption groups is 100% adoption, or as close as possible.
> 
> To say that you (generic 'you') are against gambling or racing owners making a profit off of their dogs is hypocrisy, if you are not a vegan living the greenest life possible.


 So the adoption rate isn't 100% (or closest possible) yet? What percentage do you thing are saved?

I'm not against gambling because of the "making profit off animals" thing, I'm against gambling in general because I've seen the destructive effect it has on families.


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## LazyGRanch713

NeedleNoseLuvR said:


> Actually, greyhounds do not race everyday. Each dog is allowed to race two to three times during a two week period. The four hours everyday is probably the turnout time. Gee, the AR groups forget to mention turnouts.
> 
> *HSUS and PETA want you to believe that greyhounds are raced into the dirt and abused horribly. Therefore, in the AR mindset, racing greyhounds should go extinct to protect them from this horrible life. They believe the same thing about working sleddogs.*


Needs repeating...


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## NeedleNoseLuvR

To be honest, I don't know the total percentage. I do know that all adoption groups, regardless of their stand on racing, are trying for as close to 100% as possible. Most tracks, many kennels and owners are also working toward this.

Some people will bet the grocery or rent money on dogs, horses or even the lottery. Ending racing will not stop these people from betting, they will just find something else to bet on. Gambling addiction is a mental illness and if every dog track in the U.S. closed today, these people will still be sick and will still gamble.


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## Sighthounds4me

Okay, I have not read all the replies, on purpose. I will go back at some point and read them, and probably address things separately. But let me start with this.

So many of the people I encounter are against Greyhound racing based on ages-old propagana that continues to be pushed on the public. This is thanks to groups like Grey2K, PeTA, HSUS, ASPCA, and others. They continue to exploit past offenses, and paint all racing owners, trainers, kennel help, etc with the same broad brush.

In addition, the people I have talked to that are against Greyhound racing have never experienced it. They have never even been to a race, much less have they been to a racing kennel or farm. So they rely on the propaganda, and feel that it tells them the truth.

I am here to tell you that for the most part, Greyhound racing is NOT cruel! I have been to numerous races, and most of the time, spent the afternoon or evening in the kennel, watching the race on simulcast, while hugging on a hound or two! I have helped with turnouts, and have learned how much work it takes to keep up a top racing kennel.

I have seen racing owners/trainers cry as they let go their beloved Greyhounds to adoption. They are not sad that these dogs will be in good homes and love, but are sad that they can not be the ones to give these dogs that loving home. They really do love them that much!

But the basic thing I tell most people, if they ask about how "cruel" the sport is: "Do you think a Greyhound will run well, and make money for his kennel, if he is starved and abused?" Most people graso it at that point: these dogs are athletes, and MUST be in good condition and happy, or they will not run well. Since not running well does not make money, what would be in the best interest of the owner/kennel? Beating the dogs and starving them? Or training them positively, working them physically, and feeding them top-of-the-line foods?

And, no, unless the weather is bad, these dogs DO NOT spend 20+ hours daily in kennels. Most of the time, they are in turn-out pens playing and running.

But even if they did spend their lives in kennels, those kennels are MUCH larger than anything we use at home. I know a trainer that would sleep in Greyhound kennels at night, if he had to spend time at his kennel (sick dog or something). He is approximately 6'2", and could almost stretch out completely. Believe me, these things are huge!



Nargle said:


> I would like to learn more about greyhound racing. I'm not opposed to the actual races themselves, however, I am strongly opposed to keeping dogs kenneled for extreme periods of time with little to no human interaction. I think the line, to me, is drawn when people stop viewing their dogs as living, breathing beings that need to be treated with respect and care, and start viewing them as objects of personal gain (be it to win races, win dog shows, guard your property, or produce puppies for profit). That's when corners start being cut and the dog gets the short end of the deal.
> 
> I do not personally know enough about greyhound racing to form an opinion yet, but I would like to learn about the kinds of conditions they're being kept in, the way they're being bred, etc. The above statement is just a general opinion, not specifically referring to greyhound racing, but I thought it was relevant.
> 
> 
> 
> (As I said before, I don't know enough to form an actual opinion, but for the sake of learning, I'm playing devil's advocate for now)
> Actually I have heard (not sure if this is true) that dogs only race every other day or every three days. So perhaps these dogs aren't getting out every day. Also, it's not as if greyhound racing is NASCAR... the races are only a few minutes long (not sure exactly how long) not hours long. And only so many dogs can be on the track at once. I wonder how much of that four hours is actually spend running and not waiting for your few minutes of sprinting?
> 
> My dog probably doesn't get 4 straight hours of pure exercise. And he does sleep a lot. However, his waking hours are filled with enrichment and stimulation. He visits new places, meets new dogs, plays with puzzle toys, and we spend probably several hours over the day just training and working his brain. He is not just sitting in a kennel twiddling his dewclaws. I wonder if the four hours outside of the kennel really make up for the 20 hours of solitude? You say they have the "times of their lives," but would you say the same about a child who is let out of his room for four hours a day to run amok and have a total hyper spaz attack, just to be put back in the same boring room for the rest of the day?
> 
> I ask these questions because I really am curious about the kinds of conditions these dogs are being kept in. Are there humans there interacting with these dogs, training them and providing mental stimulation? Do they get toys and puzzles to play with? Especially treat dispensing toys that challenge the brain? Do they visit a variety of places and situations (including home situations), and are they socialized properly as one would expect for any other dog? If not, I'm also curious to learn about how retired racing greyhounds adapt to the life of an average pet.


Correct, most tracks only race dogs every couple days.

However, have you ever seen a Greyhound either still racing, or just off the track? They are STACKED! This type of muscle development does not come from sitting in a kennel all day, only racing for 30 seconds a couple times a week.

Trainers sprint dogs, jog them, walk them, and allow them free-play in turn-out pens. That 30-second race is the culmination of that training program.

As for human interaction, no, they are not pets, and as such, they do not receive the same amount of loving as most pets. But most trainers know their dogs by name. They know them physically better than most of us pet owners. They have their hands on their dogs every day, and most Greyhounds off the track know that human touch is a good thing.

My Naples is pretty sure that all humans are good, and none could ever hurt her. To this day, 9 years after retirement, she is extremely tolerant of anything humans do to her. Some of that is her hard-wired temperament, but most of it has to do with how she was treated on the breeding farm and on the track.

I met a racing owner recently at our adoption group's major fund-raising event. His dogs not only remembered him, but knew to go right to his left jacket pocket for treats. The dogs I took, NOT Greyhounds, met him and LOVED him instantly, and learned VERY quickly where he kept his treats.


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## RonE

I've never been to a greyhound race. A track near here (Kaukauna for you cheeseheads) was shut down before I had a chance.

But I've watched greyhounds run - flat-out on an open trail - and it was one of the most glorious things I've ever seen.


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## Nargle

Thanks to all who have shared info and shed some light on the situation. If racing greyhound truly are kept as several of you have described (human interaction, training and socialization, plenty of play with other dogs, etc.) then I think it's worth supporting. I am still interested in continuing to learn, though. Someone (I'm posting with my phone so it's hard to do quotes) mentioned a greyhound forum, would you mind PMing me the link?

One thing still intrigues me, though. It was mentioned that greyhounds are bred on "farms." I'm curious to learn about the kinds of ethics involved in breeding greys. It's one thing to have clean facilities, and another to be going about things responsibly. I remember there was a thread on DF a while ago about "clean," "high class" puppy mills. Many were still opposed to the mills despite their not looking like PETA shock photos, and for good reason I believe. A puppy mill is still a puppy mill.

One thing that really bothers me about the breeding of Alaskan Huskies is the lack of health testing (disagree if you want but this is where I stand). Do greyhound breeders do routine health testing on all of their breeding stock? I believe that health testing is the bare minimum requirement to be considered a responsible breeder.


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## Sighthounds4me

The link for a good Greyhound forum is www.greytalk.com The owners of the site are very against talking about racing, because of the passions involved, though, so while you might see threads about life on the farm, or whatever, rarely will you see anything about racing, and NEVER about the politics involved.

Another good site is http://www.greybark.net/forums/ There is a little more about racing here.

I believe Global Greyhounds has forums, too, but IIRC, you need to pay to be a member. Worth checking out, though, as there are A LOT of racing people there.

Regarding the farms: I know there is a link out there somewhere, but I have to find it. It talks about how they are raised, and typically, I prefer life on the farm to the way many breeders, even highly responsible one, raise their puppies. Typically, their whelping facilities are quite plush, and when the pups are old enough, they are placed in outdoor runs. the whole litter is together until they are about 9 months old, when they are placed into racing kennels for training and schooling. Usually, their runs on the farm are VERY large, to facilitate lots of running, to begin building muscle.

I will see if I can find the link, and that will give you far more information.

Puppy mills, they are not. High importance is given to vet care, quality food, lots of exercise, and the like. Yes, there are many dogs on a Greyhound farm, but they usually do not breed bitches on back-to-back seasons, nor do they breed them often. Three litters is usually the max for any Greyhound breeder, and most will not do more than two. Then, the brood bitches are given to adoption groups, and adopted out as pets.

As for health testing, yes, there is some. But primarily, since Greyhounds are bred a little later in their lives than many other breeds (often, a bitch will be bred at 6 + years old), because their racing careers can be so long, any major health problems would have cropped up by then. For example, hip dysplasia would long since have been a problem, especially for a performance dog.


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## MusherChic

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Needs repeating...


 I agree! Needs repeating! I don't even want to explore the topic of PETA. They make me mad and discusted.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

> HSUS and PETA want you to believe that greyhounds are raced into the dirt and abused horribly. Therefore, in the AR mindset, racing greyhounds should go extinct to protect them from this horrible life. They believe the same thing about working sleddogs.


they think the same thing about pit bulls....period...but weight pull especially is "cruel" and "disgusting".


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## LazyGRanch713

Sighthounds4me said:


> The link for a good Greyhound forum is www.greytalk.com The owners of the site are very against talking about racing, because of the passions involved, though, so while you might see threads about life on the farm, or whatever, rarely will you see anything about racing, and NEVER about the politics involved.
> 
> Another good site is http://www.greybark.net/forums/ There is a little more about racing here.
> 
> I believe Global Greyhounds has forums, too, but IIRC, you need to pay to be a member. Worth checking out, though, as there are A LOT of racing people there.
> 
> Regarding the farms: I know there is a link out there somewhere, but I have to find it. It talks about how they are raised, and typically, I prefer life on the farm to the way many breeders, even highly responsible one, raise their puppies. Typically, their whelping facilities are quite plush, and when the pups are old enough, they are placed in outdoor runs. the whole litter is together until they are about 9 months old, when they are placed into racing kennels for training and schooling. Usually, their runs on the farm are VERY large, to facilitate lots of running, to begin building muscle.
> 
> I will see if I can find the link, and that will give you far more information.
> 
> Puppy mills, they are not. High importance is given to vet care, quality food, lots of exercise, and the like. Yes, there are many dogs on a Greyhound farm, but they usually do not breed bitches on back-to-back seasons, nor do they breed them often. Three litters is usually the max for any Greyhound breeder, and most will not do more than two. Then, the brood bitches are given to adoption groups, and adopted out as pets.
> 
> As for health testing, yes, there is some. But primarily, since Greyhounds are bred a little later in their lives than many other breeds (often, a bitch will be bred at 6 + years old), because their racing careers can be so long, any major health problems would have cropped up by then. For example, hip dysplasia would long since have been a problem, especially for a performance dog.


Isn't the rate of HD pretty low for a dog in the size range a grey is? I don't know much about GH's except they're lovely  But I haven't heard about too many with crappy hips. 
I'm always amazed at how sweet GH's are, and knowing how good the GOOD racing kennels are, it doesn't surprise me that the propaganda has you believe that the dogs are just so forgiving, kwim? Maybe a huge percent of the greyhounds being so good tempered and sweet has something to do with their former racing life, NOT the fact that they were beaten brutally and starved and are just so forgiving about it...


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## Sighthounds4me

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Isn't the rate of HD pretty low for a dog in the size range a grey is? I don't know much about GH's except they're lovely  But I haven't heard about too many with crappy hips.
> I'm always amazed at how sweet GH's are, and knowing how good the GOOD racing kennels are, it doesn't surprise me that the propaganda has you believe that the dogs are just so forgiving, kwim? Maybe a huge percent of the greyhounds being so good tempered and sweet has something to do with their former racing life, NOT the fact that they were beaten brutally and starved and are just so forgiving about it...


Yes, the rate is very low, and that's why I used HD as an example. In almost 9 years in the breed, I have never heard of an incident of HD. That's the beauty of having a performance-bred dog. There may have been HD somewhere back there in the lineage, but the fact is that the unhealthy ones can't perform, thus are not bred. Simply breeding healthy dogs to healthy dogs means the liklihood of it happening is slim.

Yes, they certainly are a sweet breed! I completely agree that much of their personaliy has more to do with their "past life." You look at any dog, of any breed, so much of their personality has to do with how they were raised, and the experiences they've had. So it certainly should not be any different for Greyhounds!

Two experiences with racing Greyhounds I would like to share with you:

Not long after we adopted Naples, I began researching siblings, and her bloodline. I found one of her sisters, Stephanie, still racing at Geneva Lakes, in Delavan, WI (now closed). I contacted her owner, who informed me she was moving to the Dairyland track (in Kenosha, WI, also closed). The owner put me in touch with the trainer at Dairyland, with whom I learned a lot. She gave me her phone number, and left an open invitaion to see the kennel, and meet Stephanie.

When we were finally able to make it happen, we were impressed. The first thing that hit me upon entering the kennel building was the smell of bleach. That told me how important cleaning was to them. We got a tour of the kennel, were shown what the dogs eat (primarily raw meat, with kibble, veggies, and nutritional supplements), and met several of the Greyhounds. Steph was racing that night, so we did not get to meet her, but we did see her run. But ALL of the Greyhounds in that kennel were over the moon to meet new people, which told me that they knew good things come from humans.

Not long after that, Stephaine got terribly ill. I don't believe the vet ever discovered the actual problem, but with good supportive care, she fully recovered, and raced again. Steph was so ill that the night she got rushed to the vet hospital, the trainer said she was vomiting and defacating blood, but she took her in her own vehicle anyway. She ended up getting a police escort.

Steph was so ill that she was down to about 45 lbs - her race weight was 64! The trainer paid for most of the care herself, and brough her back to the kennel when she was well enough. Not long after that is when we first met her. We walked into the kennel, and the trainer opened Steph's kennel. Steph shot out at a dead run, nearly knocked me over, and then licked me all over, while beating me to death with her tail. She was adorable!


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## MusherChic

LazyGRanch713 said:


> The same people who adopt the same "sad" face as the dogs have pet dogs who spend all night in a cage, all day in a cage while the owner is at work, and recieve a 15 minute walk and a pat on the head in the evening.
> The same thing goes to people who act like having a working LGD that "lives outside" is a horrible way for a dog to live. The poor things would rather be inside, right? Wrong...(same with working sheepdogs).
> Oh and don't even get me started on the sled dog thing  "Oh...CHAIIINNSSSSS...the dogs are CHAIINNNEEEDDDD!!!! To this eetsy weensy dog houses!! CHAAAINEEDDD..."


 What don't you like about them being chained?
My dogs are chained but I assure you they are very well taken care of. I have a 6ft chain connected to a wooden post with a swivel so they can go 360 degrees around the post. They each have their own dog houses, bowls, water buckets etc.. I clean up after them 2x a day everyday. 
I can see why you wouldn't like it because on the outside it does seem cruel. I assure you though sled dogs who are chained are no worse off then a dog who lives in a kennel run. Infact from my experiances the dogs who are chained are more socialized and friendly. On a chian swivel system, the dogs actually have more room than they would in a standard size kennel. ( the standards may vary but I am talking about the ones you find at hardware stores and Petsmart, places like that.)
We space the dogs so they can play with and interact with their neighbors but not tangle.
A dog on a shorter chain is safer than a dog on a long chain or cable because they can get tangled or wrapped in their chain. ( I have had this happen before with a long chain.) 
When I don't run the dogs, and a lot of mushers will do this, I let them off of their chains to free run for a couple of hours or longer while I clean their spot or do other chores. A lot of mushers have exercise pens, one for males and one for females, so they can free run their dogs. 
Where did you see a sled dog kennel?? I know of one in alaska that has been popular for they way that their dogs were chained because they were chained to their houses on what looked to me to be a 5ft chain. Because they were chained to their houses they counld't roam 360 degrees. Now this I did NOT like. I have a pic or 2 of my dog yard on my website if you would like to check it out. Willow Run Sled dogsIts not as bad as it looks but if you still feel the same way its ok, I understand.


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## Xeph

LazyG was actually mocking the people that think all chaining is terrible.


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## MusherChic

Xeph said:


> LazyG was actually mocking the people that think all chaining is terrible.


Oh dear! I didn't realize that at the time. Now that I go back though I do realize it. I am so sorry LGR!! I feel silly now.... :doh:
I was reading and posting in a hurry because I had to go to town. I was not paying attention to what I was reading! Again I apologize.


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## Nargle

MusherChic said:


> What don't you like about them being chained?
> My dogs are chained but I assure you they are very well taken care of. I have a 6ft chain connected to a wooden post with a swivel so they can go 360 degrees around the post. They each have their own dog houses, bowls, water buckets etc.. I clean up after them 2x a day everyday.
> I can see why you wouldn't like it because on the outside it does seem cruel. I assure you though sled dogs who are chained are no worse off then a dog who lives in a kennel run. Infact from my experiances the dogs who are chained are more socialized and friendly. On a chian swivel system, the dogs actually have more room than they would in a standard size kennel. ( the standards may vary but I am talking about the ones you find at hardware stores and Petsmart, places like that.)
> We space the dogs so they can play with and interact with their neighbors but not tangle.
> A dog on a shorter chain is safer than a dog on a long chain or cable because they can get tangled or wrapped in their chain. ( I have had this happen before with a long chain.)
> When I don't run the dogs, and a lot of mushers will do this, I let them off of their chains to free run for a couple of hours or longer while I clean their spot or do other chores. A lot of mushers have exercise pens, one for males and one for females, so they can free run their dogs.
> Where did you see a sled dog kennel?? I know of one in alaska that has been popular for they way that their dogs were chained because they were chained to their houses on what looked to me to be a 5ft chain. Because they were chained to their houses they counld't roam 360 degrees. Now this I did NOT like. I have a pic or 2 of my dog yard on my website if you would like to check it out. Willow Run Sled dogsIts not as bad as it looks but if you still feel the same way its ok, I understand.


Kind of off-topic, but I do not like chains, mostly because I believe that it's unsafe for the dogs. If a stray animal or wild critter were to get into your yard, they'd have no means of escape, and your dogs would be at the mercy of whatever wandered into your yard. I've even, unfortunately, seen teenagers and kids doing unspeakable things to defenseless dogs on chains while the owner wasn't around. I also do not approve of breeders who keep their females in heat out on chains where every male in the neighborhood has access to her.

You chain your dogs up, but do you have a secure fence that can keep the critters/strays out? If so, why do you need to chain them up? Do some of your dogs not get along together?


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## Sighthounds4me

I promised to post a link about puppies on a Greyhound farm. I can't find the one liked, but this one is just as good: http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/misc/on_the_farm/the_formative_months.shtml


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## Xeph

> If so, why do you need to chain them up?


Have you experienced the escapist nature of Huskies? I certainly couldn't imagine trying to round everybody up if they were loose either. And in a perpetually heated kennel building or in runs, how do they adapt to the cold?


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## Nargle

Xeph said:


> Have you experienced the escapist nature of Huskies? I certainly couldn't imagine trying to round everybody up if they were loose either. And in a perpetually heated kennel building or in runs, how do they adapt to the cold?


Well my family had a husky mix (who was an escape artist) while I was growing up :biggrin1: Surely there are ways to keep them contained. Though, as I said before, my main problem with chaining dogs is the fact that they're exposed to every other stray and wild animal that have access to the unfenced yard. If the yard is secure enough to keep critters out, then that's much better. My main fear, though, is that chains are much cheaper than fences, and that's why the majority of people who chain their dogs do so.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

i would think it would be almost mandatory for a mushing husky to be acclimated to a tie out. if you go on a race or run and end up camping out..a tie is the safest and most logical form of containment when out on a long run. 

a


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## Nargle

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i would think it would be almost mandatory for a mushing husky to be acclimated to a tie out. if you go on a race or run and end up camping out..a tie is the safest and most logical form of containment when out on a long run.
> 
> a


That doesn't mean your home can't have a barrier around it to keep your dogs safe. Of course you can't fence every camp site, and that's a risk you have to take. But I don't see a reason to take that chance in your own home, unless you're too cheap.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Nargle said:


> That doesn't mean your home can't have a barrier around it to keep your dogs safe. Of course you can't fence every camp site, and that's a risk you have to take. But I don't see a reason to take that chance in your own home, unless you're too cheap.


um. i used a tie out until they made it illegal here. It wasnt that i was too cheap to put in a fence..it was that my landlord would not allow me to put in a fence.(this was not with Bolo, i would never tie a DA dog out unsupervised with no fence....this was with my non DA dog Vi who is now at the bridge). 

i think most people who take extremist sides on these matters arent really looking at all the potentials...this sort of issue is SO VERY situation specific...


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## Nargle

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> um. i used a tie out until they made it illegal here. It wasnt that i was too cheap to put in a fence..it was that my landlord would not allow me to put in a fence.(this was not with Bolo, i would never tie a DA dog out unsupervised with no fence....this was with my non DA dog Vi who is now at the bridge).
> 
> i think most people who take extremist sides on these matters arent really looking at all the potentials...this sort of issue is SO VERY situation specific...


Was there a reason your dog couldn't be inside? Were you conditioning your dog to the elements so that it could pull a sled over a tundra? Also, I hope your dog never had to be pelted with rocks or beated with sticks while you weren't home by the neighborhood kids, or never got attacked by an aggressive stray dog with no where to run.

I think above all, dogs are their owners responsibility and their safety is FIRST AND FOREMOST over everything else. Over convenience, over sports, over money, etc. If one can't take it upon themselves to keep their dogs safe, they have no business owning dogs. ESPECIALLY in rural areas full of wild animals and strays where I assume most sled dogs are kept (I've never heard of a sled dog kennel being in the middle of the city, though I could be wrong).


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## Xeph

While I think safety is important, not everybody can do a fence, and not everybody WANTS a fence even if they can have one. What's wrong with that? Every situation was different. It's hard, but I've stopped "what if"ing so much. It's futile. Sometimes things just happen.

The idea that someone can't keep their dogs safe because they don't have a fence up is silly. Kids still poke dogs through fences, and throw things at them...and still laugh because the dog can't get to them.

The issue is largely supervision and lack of real exercise (which sled dogs don't have an issue with).


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## Nargle

Xeph said:


> While I think safety is important, not everybody can do a fence, and not everybody WANTS a fence even if they can have one. What's wrong with that? Every situation was different. It's hard, but I've stopped "what if"ing so much. It's futile. Sometimes things just happen.


If you don't want or can't have a fence, keep your dogs indoors. If you want to condition your sled dog team to the elements, put up a fence to keep them safe. Some things "just happen," but other things can easily be prevented, and SHOULD be prevented.



Xeph said:


> The idea that someone can't keep their dogs safe because they don't have a fence up is silly. Kids still poke dogs through fences, and throw things at them...and still laugh because the dog can't get to them.


Except that the dog has someplace to go. It can run away from the fence line. A dog kept on a 6 ft chain has NO WHERE to go. Sure, you can't prevent everything, but it's better (And more RESPONSIBLE) to do the best you can do to keep your dog safe than nothing at all.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Nargle said:


> Was there a reason your dog couldn't be inside? Were you conditioning your dog to the elements so that it could pull a sled over a tundra? Also, I hope your dog never had to be pelted with rocks or beated with sticks while you weren't home by the neighborhood kids, or never got attacked by an aggressive stray dog with no where to run.


no. but im not going to leave her alone in a house with a DA dog who cant be crated and who can open crates. do i lock her in and have her be miserable and risk her getting attacked by my other dog? or do i leave her in the yard with a nice pool of water, a nice place to sun herself and the opportunity to watch birds fly by?





> I think above all, dogs are their owners responsibility and their safety is FIRST AND FOREMOST over everything else. Over convenience, over sports, over money, etc. If one can't take it upon themselves to keep their dogs safe, they have no business owning dogs. ESPECIALLY in rural areas full of wild animals and strays where I assume most sled dogs are kept (I've never heard of a sled dog kennel being in the middle of the city, though I could be wrong).



what about for a dog's sanity? some dogs..for example a feral puppy i raised and fostered..she was intolerant of the house. freaked her out and made her miserable without me there. she was HAPPY outside. and when she came in at night, i was there to reassure her and help her deal with her nervousness in the house. Same with Vi...she was MUCH happier outside during the day. Neighbor was paid to check on them when she came home from lunch and confirmed this..seeing Vi play was rare..but outside, alone..she was playing according to all of my neighbors who happened to glance over. Same with Lilah.


ETA: you need to look at the individual situation and the individual dog. You cant just make a blanket statement about the responsibility of tie outs and hope its across the board true. you have to look at the owner and how they both define safety and how they weigh the decision. responsibility means DOING YOUR VERY BEST for your dogs. I could give them all up because i dont have a fence...Bolo would be immediately put down. Vivi was adopted and rejected due to her spookiness multiple times before she came to live out the rest of her life with me. Lilah took a LONG LONG LONG time to rehab enough to be adopted out but she clearly had a chance at being rehabbed and she was. so a little risk for a lot of happieness vs being dead or stuck in a shelter with little hope of adoption...hmmm..i know what id choose. 

and with mushers and other working dogs...they too have legit and varied reasons for tying out. its situation specific..just like almost every other moral question on the planet.


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## Xeph

> A dog kept on a 6 ft chain has NO WHERE to go.


Who says the chain is only 6 feet? From my understanding, the sled dogs, when at home, get more chain than that and are spaced out so they can't get to each other (breeding and what not).



> If you don't want or can't have a fence, keep your dogs indoors.


Not everybody feels that way. There are still herdsman that keep their dogs outdoors. Regular people too.


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## Nargle

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no. but im not going to leave her alone in a house with a DA dog who cant be crated and who can open crates. do i lock her in and have her be miserable and risk her getting attacked by my other dog? or do i leave her in the yard with a nice pool of water, a nice place to sun herself and the opportunity to watch birds fly by?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what about for a dog's sanity? some dogs..for example a feral puppy i raised and fostered..she was intolerant of the house. freaked her out and made her miserable without me there. she was HAPPY outside. and when she came in at night, i was there to reassure her and help her deal with her nervousness in the house. Same with Vi...she was MUCH happier outside during the day. Neighbor was paid to check on them when she came home from lunch and confirmed this..seeing Vi play was rare..but outside, alone..she was playing according to all of my neighbors who happened to glance over. Same with Lilah.


Some dogs don't belong in certain homes. Would you think it to be alright for someone who never exercises to own a hyper Border Collie pup? If a feral pup needs to live outside, they need a home that can provide them a safe, secure outside place to live in. If you can't keep a dog reasonably safe, you don't need to own that dog. As I said before, I sincerely hope your dog was never a victim to the cruelty I have personally witnessed that some chained dogs recieve.



Xeph said:


> Who says the chain is only 6 feet? From my understanding, the sled dogs, when at home, get more chain than that and are spaced out so they can't get to each other (breeding and what not).


The person that I quoted and who I made my original statement regarding chaining dogs stated that she keeps her dogs on 6 ft chains. She also stated that it NEEDS to be short or else they will get tangled in their own chain.



Xeph said:


> Not everybody feels that way. There are still herdsman that keep their dogs outdoors. Regular people too.


This is how *I* feel. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and everyone can state their opinions as often and as loudly as they please.


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## Xeph

> She also stated that it NEEDS to be short or else they will get tangled in their own chain.


Gee, sounds like a safety precaution. Weird, huh?



> If you can't keep a dog reasonably safe, you don't need to own that dog.


Your idea of reasonably safe and Zim's are clearly different. Doesn't mean Zim's wrong and you're right, or vice versa. It might be wrong to you, but she made it work.

There are plenty of people that own breeds they shouldn't, and still make it work.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

you're making a lot of assumptions. 

like with me..you dont know my neighborhood. dont know what it's like to live in this neighborhood.

and you dont know until i tell you that i take that into consideration. tie outs do not automatically mean the owner is irresponisble or doesnt deserve their dog. 

the factors are so numerous...by your standards you'd be robbing a lot of dogs of loving homes if everyone thought like you did.

im done.


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## Sighthounds4me

Wow - glad to see this tread remained on topic so well! I hope this information was of help to the people that wanted to know more about Greyhound racing!


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## Nargle

Xeph said:


> Gee, sounds like a safety precaution. Weird, huh?
> 
> 
> Your idea of reasonably safe and Zim's are clearly different. Doesn't mean Zim's wrong and you're right, or vice versa. It might be wrong to you, but she made it work.
> 
> There are plenty of people that own breeds they shouldn't, and still make it work.


Never said I was RIGHT, it's just this is how I feel :biggrin1: Dog ownership isn't black and white.


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## Sighthounds4me

Okay, seriously, if we are going to talk about chaining, who's right, and who's wrong, can we open another thread, and get this one back on track?!

I know I am being selfish, but I always appreciate an opportunity to educate people about Greyhound racing. But this thread has gotten so far off-topic, I don't know how much can happen in that realm!


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## RaeganW

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the people who own the kennels dont usually own all the dogs in their kennel..a lot of times you have a single owner per dog. kind of like how many horses are kept. they're stabled at a barn but are owned by people who rent a stall from the barn owner. My neighbor speculates that that sort of set up may be part of the problem


By this do you mean the problem is that they have individual owners, or that the problem is when they don't, when all the dogs are owned by one person?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

RaeganW said:


> By this do you mean the problem is that they have individual owners, or that the problem is when they don't, when all the dogs are owned by one person?


it was just something my neighbor suggested. i dont know if it's true or not..just something i heard...but she said that there can be miscommunication between the two..which can sometimes lead to problems. that's all i really have heard.


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## MissMutt

Sighthounds4me said:


> Okay, seriously, if we are going to talk about chaining, who's right, and who's wrong, can we open another thread, and get this one back on track?!
> 
> I know I am being selfish, but I always appreciate an opportunity to educate people about Greyhound racing. But this thread has gotten so far off-topic, I don't know how much can happen in that realm!


I agree. The chaining argument has been done to death here, and I, quite frankly, was really enjoying the Greyhound talk.

Sighthounds4me, are you familiar with Jen Bachelor, who owned the only two MACH Greyhounds in history? I read her blog occasionally. I believe both were track rescues.

Which leads me to my next question.. are rescues, in your experience, open to someone who wants to branch out and do dog sports with a particularly drivey ex-racer? Some of them seem like they'd make great performance dogs if people would let go of the "zomg sighthounds are untrainable couch potatoes racehorse doggies!!!!111" stuff.


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## Sighthounds4me

RaeganW said:


> By this do you mean the problem is that they have individual owners, or that the problem is when they don't, when all the dogs are owned by one person?


I missed this before...

I don't understand this analogy - part of what problem?

And in my experience, many dogs in one kennel are owned by the same owner. The kennel that Naples came out of for example. Her registered name is Devie's Naples. Many racing dogs do not have a kennel name like AKC dogs, but in this case, all the "Devie's" dogs were owned by the same person. At one time, it was Naples' owner, but eventually she got bought out by the owner/trainer of the kennel Naples came from.

But generally, the vet care is actually up to the track administration. Individual kennels obviously play a part, but the track itself mandates many things, and enforces them. And often, those mandates are an extension of the state's gaming laws.

Am I understanding the question well enough to answer in a logical way?



> Sighthounds4me, are you familiar with Jen Bachelor, who owned the only two MACH Greyhounds in history? I read her blog occasionally. I believe both were track rescues.


I have heard of her and her accomplishments, but that's as far as my familiarity goes, unfortunately. I would love to chat with her!



> Which leads me to my next question.. are rescues, in your experience, open to someone who wants to branch out and do dog sports with a particularly drivey ex-racer? Some of them seem like they'd make great performance dogs if people would let go of the "zomg sighthounds are untrainable couch potatoes racehorse doggies!!!!111" stuff.


First off, let me say that I don't like calling Greyhounds "rescue dogs," nor the agencies that adopt them out as "rescues." Really, it's a matter of semantics, but since most ex-racers are not in trouble of being euth'd due to no longer racing, I do not consider them true rescues. JMO, of course.

Yes, most adoption groups are fine with adopters doing various sports with their Greyhounds. However, I always caution people to do a little research, first. For example, if your dog was retired due to injury, strenuous sports like agility, flyball, lure-coursing and the like would not be recommended.

If your dog was retired due to interfering, like my Naples, lure-coursing would not be recommended.

If, however, your dog was simply not good due to being not fast enough, or just didn't want to run, fine. Do whatever you can, if your dog is interested! That would be no problem!

Off-leash activities, unless in a fenced area, are generally very frowned-upon, however, and many adoption groups have you sign a contract stating you will not let them off-leash, unsecured.


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## RaeganW

I *think* what Zim was saying was that when all the dogs are owned by different people, communicating all the little nuances is difficult? Like the brown dog likes Country music, but the red dog won't run unless he falls asleep to Western.

What is interfering?


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## MissMutt

> I have heard of her and her accomplishments, but that's as far as my familiarity goes, unfortunately. I would love to chat with her!


Her blog can be found at http://neversaynevergreyhounds.com  It's a great read - she does a LOT with her dogs.



> First off, let me say that I don't like calling Greyhounds "rescue dogs," nor the agencies that adopt them out as "rescues." Really, it's a matter of semantics, but since most ex-racers are not in trouble of being euth'd due to no longer racing, I do not consider them true rescues. JMO, of course.


I was referring to the "rescue" agencies, not the dogs, but I can see where you're coming from. I guess "adoption group" or something is more appropriate? (I certainly am not one of those people who is all anti-racing or anything, that's just me not knowing much about the adoption part of it!)



> Yes, most adoption groups are fine with adopters doing various sports with their Greyhounds. However, I always caution people to do a little research, first. For example, if your dog was retired due to injury, strenuous sports like agility, flyball, lure-coursing and the like would not be recommended.


Oh, yes, of course! Just like racehorses.. you must consider the background that the animal is coming from. Some race horses are retired due to bowed tendons, bone chips, etc. and aren't sound for anything more than light riding (if even that). I'm talking about mentally and physically sound younger Greyhounds that finish on the track for what ever other reason (financial issues of owner, being too slow, etc)



> Off-leash activities, unless in a fenced area, are generally very frowned-upon, however, and many adoption groups have you sign a contract stating you will not let them off-leash, unsecured.


Yup, I know all of this already. Jen does compete with her dogs outdoors, AFAIK, and is pretty adamant on the belief that SOME exceptional Greyhounds can behave offleash (it's usually at that point that she talks about how she picks her dogs.. looking for a perfect blend of biddability and prey drive, knowing that most Greys will not fit the bill to be able to do the kinds of things she enjoys). She does go hiking off leash with her dogs (something I wouldn't even try with my own prey-driven non-Grey!). The offleash part definitely does make agility difficult. I wonder how most agility greyhound people handle this.. does the agility environment not "count" as offleash due to the ring barriers, controlled environment, or do they only trial indoors? I've seen it go both ways with the Husky people.. probably the same for Grey folks.

I have thought about adding a Grey WAY down the line - I know there are biddable ex-racers out there who like to work, plus their cleanliness, ability to settle in the house, etc are all very desirable - who knows, we'll see.


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## Sighthounds4me

RaeganW said:


> I *think* what Zim was saying was that when all the dogs are owned by different people, communicating all the little nuances is difficult? Like the brown dog likes Country music, but the red dog won't run unless he falls asleep to Western.
> 
> What is interfering?


Could be. But when a racing owner leases a dog to a kennel, he/she assumes that the care is going to be sufficient and appropriate.

Yes, sometimes that is what gets them in trouble, but that system isn't perfect. Unfortunately.



MissMutt said:


> Jen does compete with her dogs outdoors, AFAIK, and is pretty adamant on the belief that SOME exceptional Greyhounds can behave offleash (it's usually at that point that she talks about how she picks her dogs.. looking for a perfect blend of biddability and prey drive, knowing that most Greys will not fit the bill to be able to do the kinds of things she enjoys). She does go hiking off leash with her dogs (something I wouldn't even try with my own prey-driven non-Grey!). The offleash part definitely does make agility difficult. I wonder how most agility greyhound people handle this.. does the agility environment not "count" as offleash due to the ring barriers, controlled environment, or do they only trial indoors? I've seen it go both ways with the Husky people.. probably the same for Grey folks.
> 
> I have thought about adding a Grey WAY down the line - I know there are biddable ex-racers out there who like to work, plus their cleanliness, ability to settle in the house, etc are all very desirable - who knows, we'll see.


IMHO, I do not believe in letting ANY sighthound off-leash, unless securely fenced. This is the reason I bought a house with a VERY large fenced yard - to allow my Borzoi to run and play off-lead, without fear of problems.

As far as agility, if it's an indoor trial, or done in a securely fenced area, fine. Yes, it's off-leash, but done so in a safe way. But if it's not a fenced area, I personally would not take the risk. I also would not do so to lure-course, either, even though every courser I have talked to tells me the dogs are far too focused on the lure to leave it. In the back of my mind, I always have that question of "what if."

I do know of people who let their ex-racers off-leash. But to me, it's not worth the risk. And this is despite the fact that I do train my dogs a fairly reliable recall.

But then, no matter the breed I have in the future, I will never allow them off-leash. Just a thing I have, but really, all it takes is *one time.*


----------



## MissMutt

Sighthounds4me said:


> Could be. But when a racing owner leases a dog to a kennel, he/she assumes that the care is going to be sufficient and appropriate.
> 
> Yes, sometimes that is what gets them in trouble, but that system isn't perfect. Unfortunately.
> 
> 
> 
> IMHO, I do not believe in letting ANY sighthound off-leash, unless securely fenced. This is the reason I bought a house with a VERY large fenced yard - to allow my Borzoi to run and play off-lead, without fear of problems.
> 
> As far as agility, if it's an indoor trial, or done in a securely fenced area, fine. Yes, it's off-leash, but done so in a safe way. But if it's not a fenced area, I personally would not take the risk. I also would not do so to lure-course, either, even though every courser I have talked to tells me the dogs are far too focused on the lure to leave it. In the back of my mind, I always have that question of "what if."
> 
> I do know of people who let their ex-racers off-leash. But to me, it's not worth the risk. And this is despite the fact that I do train my dogs a fairly reliable recall.
> 
> But then, no matter the breed I have in the future, I will never allow them off-leash. Just a thing I have, but really, all it takes is *one time.*


I likely would not take the risk, either. Just relaying her thoughts - wanted to see what you thought about it!

The reason I brought up the question about the placement agencies being open to performance dog homes, is because I've heard of agility/obedience people in Europe who have had a hell of a time getting an ex-racer, because all of the adoption groups were vehemently against the idea of the dogs (healthy, sound dogs) training for competition. So, I wondered what the norm here was.


----------



## MusherChic

Nargle said:


> Kind of off-topic, but I do not like chains, mostly because I believe that it's unsafe for the dogs. If a stray animal or wild critter were to get into your yard, they'd have no means of escape, and your dogs would be at the mercy of whatever wandered into your yard. I've even, unfortunately, seen teenagers and kids doing unspeakable things to defenseless dogs on chains while the owner wasn't around. I also do not approve of breeders who keep their females in heat out on chains where every male in the neighborhood has access to her.
> 
> You chain your dogs up, but do you have a secure fence that can keep the critters/strays out? If so, why do you need to chain them up? Do some of your dogs not get along together?


Yes, I absolutely have a fence around my kennel. I wouldn't chain the dogs this way if I didn't. 
No, not all of my dogs get along. This is another reason why it is safer to chain. I know i could just kennel but when you think about it it is more of a hassel than a benefit to have kennels especially in the winter when I would have 7 doors to dig out of the ice and snow. If I can't get into the kennel to clean up, feed, or water the dogs then what good is it? I am at more peace of mind knowing that if there is a snow storm, which there is very often in the winter here, that I am going to be able to get to the dogs quickly if there are any problems. The kennel( most mushers do this also) is right outside my back door and I can see it from many windows so if there were any problems I would be able to notice and act quickly.
Also most mushers have a special heat pen that they have for their females when they go in heat so they will be away from any intact males.



Nargle said:


> Well my family had a husky mix (who was an escape artist) while I was growing up :biggrin1: Surely there are ways to keep them contained. Though, as I said before, my main problem with chaining dogs is the fact that they're exposed to every other stray and wild animal that have access to the unfenced yard. If the yard is secure enough to keep critters out, then that's much better. My main fear, though, is that chains are much cheaper than fences, and that's why the majority of people who chain their dogs do so.


Yes it is cheaper, which is nice as sled dog racing is NOT a cheap sport. However we do NOT sacrafice safety for a lower price. 
I would like to ask but don't take this the wrong way, I am not trying to be mean. Have you ever actually seen a sled dog kennel in person and talked with the owner? It is much easier to understand this when you have seen a kennel in person.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i would think it would be almost mandatory for a mushing husky to be acclimated to a tie out. if you go on a race or run and end up camping out..a tie is the safest and most logical form of containment when out on a long run.
> 
> a


Yes, exactly. Also when a sled dog is on a chain he teaches himself how to get them self out of a tangle. If the chain gets caught on the pole then the dog has to figure out how to get it uncaught. This then teaches them that if they get on the wrong side of the gangline or get a foot over the neckline while running then they have to figure out how to fix it. Soon, the dogs will just fix themselves on the fly while running in a race or training run. This is very helpful in a race when we are being timed as i don't have to set my hook, get off the sled and run up to fix a small tangle. The dog fixes it himself.



Nargle said:


> Was there a reason your dog couldn't be inside? Were you conditioning your dog to the elements so that it could pull a sled over a tundra? Also, I hope your dog never had to be pelted with rocks or beated with sticks while you weren't home by the neighborhood kids, or never got attacked by an aggressive stray dog with no where to run.
> 
> I think above all, dogs are their owners responsibility and their safety is FIRST AND FOREMOST over everything else. Over convenience, over sports, over money, etc. If one can't take it upon themselves to keep their dogs safe, they have no business owning dogs. ESPECIALLY in rural areas full of wild animals and strays where I assume most sled dogs are kept (I've never heard of a sled dog kennel being in the middle of the city, though I could be wrong).


 No, there are no sled dog kennels in the middle of the city, for many reasons. I live in the woods off of the highway. All of my neighbors are very nice as they also have dogs. I have No Trespassing sings up where people can clearly see them. I also have a trail cam set up so if there was any suspicious activity, I would know. I also had a incident last summer where a neighbor from down the road called animal control because they happened to see the kennel while walking one day and they were concerned about the dogs. An animal control officer came out, looked at the dogs and said that i had a very nice kennel and that the dogs were in very good condition and were very well taken care of. She did say that they looked to be skinny but I my mom explained that they were working sled dogs and she knew exactly why they looked the way they did then. There is a lady who works at our humane society that also races sledd ogs so all of the animal control officers know what they are supposed to look like.
In the mushing world, these dogs DO come first and foremost. These dogs are star athletes and they are treated that way. If they were treated poorly, the wouldn't be winning races. You can't even begin to understand the bond and relationship that a musher has with their dogs unless you become one yourself. Its stronger than any bond between a pet and owner.



Xeph said:


> Who says the chain is only 6 feet? From my understanding, the sled dogs, when at home, get more chain than that and are spaced out so they can't get to each other (breeding and what not).
> 
> 
> Not everybody feels that way. There are still herdsman that keep their dogs outdoors. Regular people too.


 The chains are usually 6 to 8ft long( 8 is pushing it). Any longer and they would become more unsafe than they were safe. Mine are 6ft.

_"If you don't want or can't have a fence, keep your dogs indoors. If you want to condition your sled dog team to the elements, put up a fence to keep them safe. Some things "just happen," but other things can easily be prevented, and SHOULD be prevented."_
Now you can't just throw a sled dog team in a pen outside and expect them all to get along. Some dogs just don't like each other and there is nothing that you can do about it. If you do not own your own team of sled dogs then you will never understand the way that they are kept and should be kept. Its a whole different situation from pets dogs, way different.
When people come to my kennel, I can invite them into the kennel to look at the dogs if they want to. Because I have it set up the way I do, people can walk from dog to dog, petting and playing with them. If they were in kennels, then we would just be on the outside looking in and the dog would not get any attention at all. I am not going to open every kennel door to let a bunch of people in to see a dog. Like sombody said also, you would be robbing a lot of dogs of loving homes if we had to go by your opinion. 
If my dogs were kept inside we wuldn't have a house anymore. They would tear it up from the inside out. They HATE to be inside, its not their natural element. Some will come in for a little while but they soon are panting and asking to go back out because it is too warm. I have to dogs that can't come in at all because 1) they hate it and 2) they eat cats.

With the situation of teens throwing bricks and what not at the dogs and bothering them, they can do the exact same thing with a kennel. You say tha dog has no where to go on a chain but in a kennel the fence stops somewhere right? I have a camera up on my driveway so if there was any activity like this, I would know. I am the only teenager in my neighborhood anyway. The closest neighbors are half a mile down the road. All my neighbors do what they can to watch ot for our dogs and we do what we can to watch out for theirs. 
Anyways I will continue this subject in the new post that I have made in the General dog talk. Its called Conversation from Grey Hound thread. I also have a pic of my dog kennel on there and a site that outlines the proper care and housing of sled dogs which i have followed very carefully. 
Sorry GH lovers and races!! We didn't mean to highjack this thread! I hope it gets back to normal now with the new thread.


----------



## Jacksons Mom

I have not read this whole thread yet and am about to fall asleep but I wanted to make a comment on the whole Greyhound racing thing.

I know that most rescue Greyhounds I see apparently don't even know how to go up/down stairs and simple things like that. Which kind of makes me sad.

I view my dog as my best friend, my companion, my every day buddy. I highly enjoy training him and he knows a ton of tricks, we dabble in agility, he gets to run his heart out 4x a week in a fenced in area, he gets daily leashed walks, he gets to experience new sights, smells and sounds nearly every day of his life, he gets proper exercise and mental stimulation daily and is socialized to people, other dogs, etc, etc, etc. He really gets to live a great dog life. And yeah, sure, I have made money off of him before (all of which goes to pay for things FOR him, lol) from trick contests, photo contests, and things of that sort... so I don't see anything wrong with the actual betting process, etc, but Jackson is my _family_. 

Never in a million years would I want him to be living in a barn... no matter HOW nice the barn is. Sure, okay, they get time out in a pen with other same-sex dogs muzzled... I just don't see how that is a "great dog life". I have no problems with seeing them doing what they were bred to do... running. I think it's a gorgeous site to see a Greyhound just RUN. But does nobody keep a Greyhound as a PET first and foremost? Why can a Greyhound not just live a normal pet life in a household with a family to call their own and ALSO have the luxury of racing? That just doesn't make sense to me. And then, when they can no longer race, just put them up for adoption? Like... they're not good for you anymore. They can no longer work so let's put them into a rescue who will have to teach them to live out a normal dog life for their golden years, even though they've never been acclimated to home life? It just seems all a little unfair, but someone correct me if I'm totally wrong.


----------



## TStafford

Nargle said:


> Was there a reason your dog couldn't be inside? Were you conditioning your dog to the elements so that it could pull a sled over a tundra? Also, I hope your dog never had to be pelted with rocks or beated with sticks while you weren't home by the neighborhood kids, or never got attacked by an aggressive stray dog with no where to run.


My MIL's dog is behind a fence and an inside dog. There have still been kids that have tossed bricks at him over the fence. People can also poison your dog behind a fence and animals can dig in (i've seen that happen).

Sightshounds4me: threads go off topic a lot! But the info on this thread about GH has been great. It will help next I hear someone going on about how racing is so wrong. A lot of the rescue group people talk about stuff like that while they are at petsmart.


----------



## Sighthounds4me

musherchic said:


> yes, i absolutely have a fence around my kennel. I wouldn't chain the dogs this way if i didn't.
> No, not all of my dogs get along. This is another reason why it is safer to chain. I know i could just kennel but when you think about it it is more of a hassel to have kennels especially in the winter when i would have 7 doors to dig out of the ice and snow. If i can't get into the kennel to clean up, feed, or water the dogs then what good is it? I am at more peace of mind knowing that if there is a snow storm, which there is very often in the winter here, that i am going to be able to get to the dogs quickly if there are any problems. The kennel( most mushers do this also) is right outside my back door and i can see it from many windows so if there were any problems i would be able to notice and act quickly.
> Also most mushers have a special heat pen that they have for their females when they go in heat so they will be away from any intact males.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes it is cheaper, which is nice as sled dog racing is not a cheap sport. However we do not sacrafice safety for a lower price.
> I would like to ask but don't take this the wrong way, i am not trying to be mean. Have you ever actually seen a sled dog kennel in person and talked with the owner? It is much easier to understand this when you have seen a kennel in person.
> 
> 
> Yes, exactly. Also when a sled dog is on a chain he teaches himself how to get them self out of a tangle. If the chain gets caught on the pole then the dog has to figure out how to get it uncaught. This then teaches them that if they get on the wrong side of the gangline or get a foot over the neckline while running then they have to figure out how to fix it. Soon, the dogs will just fix themselves on the fly while running in a race or training run. This is very helpful in a race when we are being timed as i don't have to set my hook, get off the sled and run up to fix a small tangle. The dog fixes it himself.
> 
> 
> No, there are no sled dog kennels in the middle of the city, for many reasons. I live in the woods off of the highway. All of my neighbors are very nice as they also have dogs. I have no trespassing sings up where people can clearly see them. I also have a trail cam set up so if there was any suspicious activity, i would know. I also had a incident last summer where a neighbor from down the road called animal control because they happened to see the kennel while walking one day and they were concerned about the dogs. An animal control officer came out, looked at the dogs and said that i had a very nice kennel and that the dogs were in very good condition and were very well taken care of.
> In the mushing world, these dogs do come first and foremost. These dogs are star athletes and they are treated that way. If they were treated poorly, the wouldn't be winning races. You can't even begin to understand the bond and relationship that a musher has with their dogs unless you become one yourself. Its stronger than any bond between a pet and owner.
> 
> 
> The chains are usually 6 to 8ft long( 8 is pushing it). Any longer and they would become more unsafe than they were safe. Mine are 6ft.


I ask again,PLEASE OPEN A DIFFERENT THREAD to talk about mushing dogs/chains, and the merits thereof! I would REALLY like to keep this one on topic! PLEASE!



Jacksons Mom said:


> I have not read this whole thread yet and am about to fall asleep but I wanted to make a comment on the whole Greyhound racing thing.
> 
> I know that most rescue Greyhounds I see apparently don't even know how to go up/down stairs and simple things like that. Which kind of makes me sad.
> 
> I view my dog as my best friend, my companion, my every day buddy. I highly enjoy training him and he knows a ton of tricks, we dabble in agility, he gets to run his heart out 4x a week in a fenced in area, he gets daily leashed walks, he gets to experience new sights, smells and sounds nearly every day of his life, he gets proper exercise and mental stimulation daily and is socialized to people, other dogs, etc, etc, etc. He really gets to live a great dog life. And yeah, sure, I have made money off of him before (all of which goes to pay for things FOR him, lol) from trick contests, photo contests, and things of that sort... so I don't see anything wrong with the actual betting process, etc, but Jackson is my _family_.
> 
> Never in a million years would I want him to be living in a barn... no matter HOW nice the barn is. Sure, okay, they get time out in a pen with other same-sex dogs muzzled... I just don't see how that is a "great dog life". I have no problems with seeing them doing what they were bred to do... running. I think it's a gorgeous site to see a Greyhound just RUN. But does nobody keep a Greyhound as a PET first and foremost? Why can a Greyhound not just live a normal pet life in a household with a family to call their own and ALSO have the luxury of racing? That just doesn't make sense to me. And then, when they can no longer race, just put them up for adoption? Like... they're not good for you anymore. They can no longer work so let's put them into a rescue who will have to teach them to live out a normal dog life for their golden years, even though they've never been acclimated to home life? It just seems all a little unfair, but someone correct me if I'm totally wrong.


I'm sorry to be blunt, but you are totally wrong.

These dogs are bred and raised for a purpose. All the money that goes into them goes to that purpose.

For a racing Greyhound to live in a home while racing would be nearly impossible. To find such dedicated homes would be VERY difficult, and the training and nutrition involved in getting and keeping a racer in top physical condition would never happen.

These dogs are bred, trained and LOVE to run. Their life in a kennel is perfectly fine for them, and they don't know anything different. DO NOT feel sad or sorry for them while they are racing.

Remember too that for most of them, there is a home life waiting for them.

I'm sorry, but to make sweeping judgments about Greyhounds' lives without actually seeing how happy they are on the track is exactly why I want to keep this thread on topic. I want people to understand just what track life is all about.

By the way, one passage I have trouble with is this: " Sure, okay, they get time out in a pen with other same-sex dogs muzzled... I just don't see how that is a 'great dog life'." First off, I don't see what you are getting at: Do you oppose them not being kenneled all day, Do you oppose them being turned out with dogs of the same sex? Do you oppose them being in a pen and not running free? Or do you oppose them being muzzled?

Let me speak to each point.

Kenneling all day has been discussed. No one wants to see them kenneled all day, so this is some of the exercise they get. Many trainers walk their dogs on leash around the track compound too, which is usually around a mile or so round trip. They also sprint dogs, school them, etc, so believe me, they get PLENTY of exercise.

Being turned out with the same sex - oh, what horror! Please remember that racers are intact. If they are good racers, from good lines, they will be bred when their racing days are over. So to turn them out together is asking for trouble. Remember too that most "responsible" breeders separate their males and females, too.

Being in a pen and not running free: These are sighthounds. Moreover, they are sighthounds that are conditioned and trained to chase moving objects. What do you think will happen if they are allowed to run free?

And finally, the eternal muzzle question: Have you ever seen a kennel muzzle on a dog? The dog can pant, bark, eat, drink, etc. These muzzles do not restrain any of that. They do, however, prevent the dogs from causing severe harm to each other when turned out, and in some cases, prevents them from eating poop, which can make them sick. My own Greyhound wears a kennel muzzle when outside, because she eats poop, then gets sick. I prefer to prevent this. And when we have fosters, all Greyhounds wear muzzles when outside together.

Here is a photo of a Greyhound in a kennel muzzle. See how much room she has in there?











TStafford said:


> Sightshounds4me: threads go off topic a lot! But the info on this thread about GH has been great. It will help next I hear someone going on about how racing is so wrong. A lot of the rescue group people talk about stuff like that while they are at petsmart.


I understand that, but this one merits another thread! Really! There have been SO MANY posts on chaining dogs already that I fear we have nearly lost sight of what the OP wanted to know.

I KNOW it's being selfish, but come on! This is ridiculous! This one is so far off topic that it's becoming pointless. Like I said, I always like the opportunity to educate people, but this thread is almost coming to blows over something completely unrelated!


----------



## TStafford

Sighthounds4me said:


> I understand that, but this one merits another thread! Really! There have been SO MANY posts on chaining dogs already that I fear we have nearly lost sight of what the OP wanted to know.
> 
> I KNOW it's being selfish, but come on! This is ridiculous! This one is so far off topic that it's becoming pointless. Like I said, I always like the opportunity to educate people, but this thread is almost coming to blows over something completely unrelated!


You're not being selfish at all. I argree that if we're going to get this off topic it should go to a new thread, I was just saying that this happens a lot.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

MusherChic said:


> Oh dear! I didn't realize that at the time. Now that I go back though I do realize it. I am so sorry LGR!! I feel silly now.... :doh:
> I was reading and posting in a hurry because I had to go to town. I was not paying attention to what I was reading! Again I apologize.


No biggie  I hear people a lot saying any dog that is chained for any reason is abuse. (Ironically, most of these people abuse crates IMO!). Auz was taught to be tied/chained because I had no idea if he would ever have to be, and I think it's important for my dogs to know when they're tied and not fight it. Same with horses 



Nargle said:


> That doesn't mean your home can't have a barrier around it to keep your dogs safe. Of course you can't fence every camp site, and that's a risk you have to take. But I don't see a reason to take that chance in your own home, unless you're too cheap.


Auz had a tie out before I came up with the money for a fence. He abhores being inside for long periods of time. It was a month or two before I had my yard fenced; the dog was tied out when I was here to supervise (on a harness btw). Again, I think it's irresponsible to slap a dog onto a tie out when they have NEVER been acclimated to being tied before; some dogs panic. If you go about teaching them what being tied out is all about (respecting when the tie goes tight) it's not a big deal IMO. Same with teaching a horse to be tied. A lot of people have barns/stalls for horses while they're at home, but if they're on a trail ride or at a show they need to learn how to be tied and not freak out.


----------



## Sighthounds4me

PLEASE! Those discussing non-Greyhound related things, OPEN A NEW THREAD!


----------



## MissMutt

Or, just open a new Greyhound thread..


----------



## Sighthounds4me

MissMutt said:


> Or, just open a new Greyhound thread..


Why should we? We already have one.


----------



## MissMutt

Sighthounds4me said:


> Why should we? We already have one.


I know, but people seem to want to continue talking about chaining/mushing/etc. here, and if the point is to discuss Greys.. that's just what seems to make sense to me.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

Jacksons Mom said:


> I have not read this whole thread yet and am about to fall asleep but I wanted to make a comment on the whole Greyhound racing thing.
> 
> I know that most rescue Greyhounds I see apparently don't even know how to go up/down stairs and simple things like that. Which kind of makes me sad.
> 
> I view my dog as my best friend, my companion, my every day buddy. I highly enjoy training him and he knows a ton of tricks, we dabble in agility, he gets to run his heart out 4x a week in a fenced in area, he gets daily leashed walks, he gets to experience new sights, smells and sounds nearly every day of his life, he gets proper exercise and mental stimulation daily and is socialized to people, other dogs, etc, etc, etc. He really gets to live a great dog life. And yeah, sure, I have made money off of him before (all of which goes to pay for things FOR him, lol) from trick contests, photo contests, and things of that sort... so I don't see anything wrong with the actual betting process, etc, but Jackson is my _family_.
> 
> Never in a million years would I want him to be living in a barn... no matter HOW nice the barn is. Sure, okay, they get time out in a pen with other same-sex dogs muzzled... I just don't see how that is a "great dog life". I have no problems with seeing them doing what they were bred to do... running. I think it's a gorgeous site to see a Greyhound just RUN. But does nobody keep a Greyhound as a PET first and foremost? Why can a Greyhound not just live a normal pet life in a household with a family to call their own and ALSO have the luxury of racing? That just doesn't make sense to me. And then, when they can no longer race, just put them up for adoption? Like... they're not good for you anymore. They can no longer work so let's put them into a rescue who will have to teach them to live out a normal dog life for their golden years, even though they've never been acclimated to home life? It just seems all a little unfair, but someone correct me if I'm totally wrong.


It depends IMO on what that dog/breed constitutes as "normal". A daily walk and game of chase in the house would probably suit most chihuahuas fine, but a BC would be a mess. Life inside of a house is probably perfect for dogs who have lived in a house all their lives, but would be a huge adjustment to a 7 year old LGD who spent his life with HIS sheep, in HIS barn. Dogs are so ridiculously adaptable for the most part; a lot of the retired ex-racers take their retirement into a house seriously, as do many other dogs. But some don't.


----------



## MissMutt

> It depends IMO on what that dog/breed constitutes as "normal".


Not only that.. but what exactly is cruel about keeping a dog in clean kennel/barn conditions with play/turnout time, exercise time, high quality food, thorough vet care, etc. if they have not known what it's like to live in a house? (Rhetorical question, obviously.. not posing this to you, LazyG!) I feel like a lot of anthropomorphizing goes on with things like Husky Kennels or Greyhound farms. The dogs aren't thinking, "this is such a terrible life, I'm sad, I want to live in a home with a family".. I don't think we have any reason to believe that they aren't content with the way that they are living. Their needs are being met and they are being mentally and physically stimulated.. I can't say the same for a lot of overweight house dogs with behavioral issues.


----------



## LazyGRanch713

MissMutt said:


> Not only that.. but what exactly is cruel about keeping a dog in clean kennel/barn conditions with play/turnout time, exercise time, high quality food, thorough vet care, etc. if they have not known what it's like to live in a house? (Rhetorical question, obviously.. not posing this to you, LazyG!) I feel like a lot of anthropomorphizing goes on with things like Husky Kennels or Greyhound farms. *The dogs aren't thinking, "this is such a terrible life, I'm sad, I want to live in a home with a family".. I don't think we have any reason to believe that they aren't content with the way that they are living. *Their needs are being met and they are being mentally and physically stimulated.. I can't say the same for a lot of overweight house dogs with behavioral issues.


Couldn't agree more. And even if my dogs could think abstractly, they would probably gladly recieve more stimulation than they get. We do the best we can.
I know dogs aren't humans, but I look at it this way. I am a home body and I hate traveling. There are people out there who travel for a living, and rent an efficiency apartment for cheap for the few times they ARE "home". Even though they get to go see a lot of interesting places, meet fascinating people, and eat new foods, it is NOT the kind of life I want. It would be silly of me to tell everyone who has that kind of lifestyle that they're really missing out, being away from home all the time. Just like it would be silly of them to try and convince me that my life is boring and I'm essentially pissing it away by not "doing" anything. (I have a friend who has done this to me in the past, saying that I need to "get out" and "have fun". READING is fun for me, as is a quiet evening at home). It's what I prefer. I think if racing GH's could think abstractly enough, they would probably prefer the opppourtunity to race and be a dog, rather than be a perfect housepet who lounges around 24/7 and gets a leashed walk once or twice a day. JM2C as usual.


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## Sighthounds4me

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Couldn't agree more. And even if my dogs could think abstractly, they would probably gladly recieve more stimulation than they get. We do the best we can.
> I know dogs aren't humans, but I look at it this way. I am a home body and I hate traveling. There are people out there who travel for a living, and rent an efficiency apartment for cheap for the few times they ARE "home". Even though they get to go see a lot of interesting places, meet fascinating people, and eat new foods, it is NOT the kind of life I want. It would be silly of me to tell everyone who has that kind of lifestyle that they're really missing out, being away from home all the time. Just like it would be silly of them to try and convince me that my life is boring and I'm essentially pissing it away by not "doing" anything. (I have a friend who has done this to me in the past, saying that I need to "get out" and "have fun". READING is fun for me, as is a quiet evening at home). It's what I prefer. I think if racing GH's could think abstractly enough, they would probably prefer the opppourtunity to race and be a dog, rather than be a perfect housepet who lounges around 24/7 and gets a leashed walk once or twice a day. JM2C as usual.


Excellent analogy.

And really, if you've ever seen how HAPPY Greyhounds are at the track, you'd understand.

I also want to say - the fact that Greyhounds don't know stairs when they are adopted... Consider how many "normal" dogs don't know stairs? I am watching a rerun of "It's Me or the Dog" right now, showing a Maltese who does not do stairs. She also does not like shiny floors. She lives in a home. It's not just Greyhounds...


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## MusherChic

I apologize guys for this getting off topic, I didn't mean for it to. I will open a new thread for the chain conversation if any of you want to continue it. If not, thats fine, if so great! I will post a link of a pic of my dog yard if those of you who were talking about chains want to see my yard. 
Does anybody here race Whippets??


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## Sighthounds4me

MusherChic said:


> Does anybody here race Whippets??


If so, it's vastly different than Greyhound racing. I have done Whippet races, and while it is fun, it is NOT at all the same.


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## MusherChic

Really? Thats interesting.....how is it different?


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## Sighthounds4me

MusherChic said:


> Really? Thats interesting.....how is it different?


I will start a new thread...


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## Jacksons Mom

Sighthounds4me said:


> I'm sorry to be blunt, but you are totally wrong.
> 
> These dogs are bred and raised for a purpose. All the money that goes into them goes to that purpose.
> 
> For a racing Greyhound to live in a home while racing would be nearly impossible. To find such dedicated homes would be VERY difficult, and the training and nutrition involved in getting and keeping a racer in top physical condition would never happen.
> 
> These dogs are bred, trained and LOVE to run. Their life in a kennel is perfectly fine for them, and they don't know anything different. DO NOT feel sad or sorry for them while they are racing.
> 
> Remember too that for most of them, there is a home life waiting for them.
> 
> I'm sorry, but to make sweeping judgments about Greyhounds' lives without actually seeing how happy they are on the track is exactly why I want to keep this thread on topic. I want people to understand just what track life is all about.
> 
> By the way, one passage I have trouble with is this: " Sure, okay, they get time out in a pen with other same-sex dogs muzzled... I just don't see how that is a 'great dog life'." First off, I don't see what you are getting at: Do you oppose them not being kenneled all day, Do you oppose them being turned out with dogs of the same sex? Do you oppose them being in a pen and not running free? Or do you oppose them being muzzled?
> 
> Let me speak to each point.
> 
> Kenneling all day has been discussed. No one wants to see them kenneled all day, so this is some of the exercise they get. Many trainers walk their dogs on leash around the track compound too, which is usually around a mile or so round trip. They also sprint dogs, school them, etc, so believe me, they get PLENTY of exercise.
> 
> Being turned out with the same sex - oh, what horror! Please remember that racers are intact. If they are good racers, from good lines, they will be bred when their racing days are over. So to turn them out together is asking for trouble. Remember too that most "responsible" breeders separate their males and females, too.
> 
> Being in a pen and not running free: These are sighthounds. Moreover, they are sighthounds that are conditioned and trained to chase moving objects. What do you think will happen if they are allowed to run free?
> 
> And finally, the eternal muzzle question: Have you ever seen a kennel muzzle on a dog? The dog can pant, bark, eat, drink, etc. These muzzles do not restrain any of that. They do, however, prevent the dogs from causing severe harm to each other when turned out, and in some cases, prevents them from eating poop, which can make them sick. My own Greyhound wears a kennel muzzle when outside, because she eats poop, then gets sick. I prefer to prevent this. And when we have fosters, all Greyhounds wear muzzles when outside together.
> 
> Here is a photo of a Greyhound in a kennel muzzle. See how much room she has in there?


Thank you clarifying some things because, like I said, I was making all assumptions from what I've known through the years. Hence why I said: "but someone correct me if I'm totally wrong." I just honestly can't wrap my mind around it simply because I've never experienced it before and I consider a dog to be a friend, first and foremost. So it's just hard for me to imagine this sort of lifestyle - doesn't mean I think it's wrong per say. It's just not something I would be interested in doing.

I have no problem with muzzling a dog who needs it or whatever. What I meant more by my comment was that someone who has not experienced such life for a dog, that it probably seems worse than it is. When an average dog owner reads such statements they seem unimaginable.

Btw, where did I ever say in my post to let a Greyhound loose off leash? I don't allow my terrier off-leash in unfenced areas due to him finding a squirrel much more interesting than a piece of steak in my hand. I take him to large fenced in areas to let him run.

I don't have a problem with racing itself. Hell, I don't even have that much of a problem with "kennel life" or whatever. If the dogs are happy and well taken care of, that's great. My step-dad owns racehorses but any of his horses can be claimed, or bought out, whatever you want to call it. And I just don't like it, lol. I get attached to the horses that we go visit and then all the sudden, they're just not ours anymore because someone else claimed them. I enjoy the connection we get with our animals and don't look at them as something that's going to make me some money and I'll just give 'em up whenever with no problems. That's just not how I am, I guess. Again, I don't even have a problem with racehorsing at all. I just like the kind of horses that you solely own and cannot be claimed, like the horses in the Kentucky Derby, etc. They still get to do what they were BRED to do and have a blast but they're not being past around from stable to stable or owner to owner, etc. It's probably me humanizing it, but whatever. Our one horse gets REALLY stressed out when he moves stables and whenever he's back in the one near our house and we visit, he becomes calm and actually seems to love us. I'll be so sad when somebody decides to claim him because then, we're just gone, not a part of his life.

I guess my main issue with the Greyhound racing is the after-life. It just seems unfair to me to have them only know this ONE life (which I don't have a problem with) but then when they're done... they get put into this life that they know NOTHING about. I just don't see why they can't be more acclimiated to it during their racing years so it's not being thrown into this whole new world.

I don't have a problem with racing itself.


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## pugmom

Really?..we need a whole new thread to discusses the difference between Greyhound racing and Whippet racing? LOL


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## MusherChic

Sighthounds4me said:


> I will start a new thread...


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to stray off topic of GHs but I thought it was close enough to discuss here.


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## Sighthounds4me

Jacksons Mom said:


> I guess my main issue with the Greyhound racing is the after-life. It just seems unfair to me to have them only know this ONE life (which I don't have a problem with) but then when they're done... they get put into this life that they know NOTHING about. I just don't see why they can't be more acclimated to it during their racing years so it's not being thrown into this whole new world.


That's just not something that's feesible, though. Like horses, racing Greyhounds are livestock, and are treated as such. To treat them as something else would not result in a quality runner. Not to mention the money that would be involved in "creating a home life" for them on the track. That's what we foster homes are for - to acclimate them to home life before they are adopted. Believe me, most acclimate REALLY fast.

Without adoption, what other option is there? To go back to the "dark ages" when Greyhounds were cruelly disposed of after their "usefulness" was done? Not an option most of want to see, and given the adaptive nature of dogs, moving into a home is something they actually do rather well with.

And, please do forgive me for getting defensive. I realize that i did. I guess I just didn't realize that your questions were meant innocently, and not based on an agenda. I get those kind of questions all the time, and most often it's because the person wants to goad me into a one-sided discussion to tell me how wrong I am for being neutral/leaning toward pro-racing. The truth is, I still consider myself neutral, but I want to try to educate people to let them know that the propaganda out there has been greatly exaggerated.

Edited to add: Most Greyhounds do get passed from track to track. But most of the time, it is at the advice of a trainer, working with the owner to get them somewhere they can do well. I know there are differences in some states, and those I am not completely familiar with. Bu in most states, a lease has to be signed by the owner, so approval has to be there.


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## pugmom

MusherChic said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't mean to stray off topic of GHs but I thought it was close enough to discuss here.


Its is.....its not threadjacking or off topic to disscuss the similarities or differences between the two......


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## NeedleNoseLuvR

Over and over, on DF I read threads about how important it is for dogs to be bred and used for the original purpose of the breed. Border collies should only be bred for herding, etc. Yet, when we talk about sighthounds, some people want them to be used for pets only. Racing greyhounds are doing what they have been bred for. Well, the modern equivalent.

The majority of greyhounds adjust very well to their new lives when they are retired. These dogs spend their early years doing what they love and then retire to nice cushy homes. How is that bad?


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## RaeganW

A friend of mine has a retired racer. Mossy was straight from the track, and had to learn about stairs and things, but is now a totally normal dog. Heck, I know dogs that have been pets their whole life that don't know how stairs work. They've had her for several years now. She even gets to go to Greyhound playgroup.


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## LazyGRanch713

Jacksons Mom said:


> Thank you clarifying some things because, like I said, I was making all assumptions from what I've known through the years. Hence why I said: "but someone correct me if I'm totally wrong." I just honestly can't wrap my mind around it simply because I've never experienced it before and I consider a dog to be a friend, first and foremost. So it's just hard for me to imagine this sort of lifestyle - doesn't mean I think it's wrong per say. It's just not something I would be interested in doing.
> 
> 
> I have no problem with muzzling a dog who needs it or whatever. What I meant more by my comment was that someone who has not experienced such life for a dog, that it probably seems worse than it is. When an average dog owner reads such statements they seem unimaginable.
> 
> Btw, where did I ever say in my post to let a Greyhound loose off leash? I don't allow my terrier off-leash in unfenced areas due to him finding a squirrel much more interesting than a piece of steak in my hand. I take him to large fenced in areas to let him run.
> 
> I don't have a problem with racing itself. Hell, I don't even have that much of a problem with "kennel life" or whatever. If the dogs are happy and well taken care of, that's great. My step-dad owns racehorses but any of his horses can be claimed, or bought out, whatever you want to call it. And I just don't like it, lol. I get attached to the horses that we go visit and then all the sudden, they're just not ours anymore because someone else claimed them. I enjoy the connection we get with our animals and don't look at them as something that's going to make me some money and I'll just give 'em up whenever with no problems. That's just not how I am, I guess. Again, I don't even have a problem with racehorsing at all. I just like the kind of horses that you solely own and cannot be claimed, like the horses in the Kentucky Derby, etc. They still get to do what they were BRED to do and have a blast but they're not being past around from stable to stable or owner to owner, etc. It's probably me humanizing it, but whatever. Our one horse gets REALLY stressed out when he moves stables and whenever he's back in the one near our house and we visit, he becomes calm and actually seems to love us. I'll be so sad when somebody decides to claim him because then, we're just gone, not a part of his life.
> 
> I guess my main issue with the Greyhound racing is the after-life. It just seems unfair to me to have them only know this ONE life (which I don't have a problem with) but then when they're done... they get put into this life that they know NOTHING about. I just don't see why they can't be more acclimiated to it during their racing years so it's not being thrown into this whole new world.
> 
> I don't have a problem with racing itself.


That's the beauty of dogs though. They don't sit around and live in the past like humans tend to do, nor for the most part sit around and shudder with dread about what the future might hold. I tried to make one of my semi-wild cats tame after he trap/spay. I kept her in a small, heated room so she would get use to me and I figured she'd LOVE having all the food to herself, the freedom to lounge and be warm, and not have to compete with "other" cats in order to get those resources. She HATED it, and went from semi-wild to completely feral. At the beginning, she would slink across the room and hide whenever I walked in. By the time she was there for a week, she would EXPLODE whenever I walked in the room, knocking things over and sending her food/water flying as she did massive attempts to get out. (Ever seen a panicked cat run into a window or door, repededly? It's not fun.) She didn't exactly "love" the new life I was offering her, and she didn't see it as "better" even though she really shouldn't have had a care in the world. What looks nice and cushy for us isn't exactly what they want. We boarded a maltese a few years back whose owner were insistent that this dog wanted nothing except a warm, plush (designer) bed. God forbid he get "dirty". By the second day the dog was insane, barking, spinning, etc. I took him outside, and he romped in the mud, ran, and had a blast. (Yes, he did get a bath before he went home <G>). But I guess my point is it looks much better to human eyes to have a dog poised on a dog bed in someones home than it does the dog being covered in mud or any other situation that doesn't meet our criteria for "good". 
Auz likes to eat cap poop. I don't consider that "nice", so I prevent him from doing so. Given the chance, he'd scarf it down in a heartbeat. It may not be natural for dogs to live in kennels and be muzzled in turnout lots for their own safety, but lets face it. Leashes, crates, training classes, and veterinarians aren't natural either. Again, JM2C.


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## sassafras

Sighthounds4me said:


> Kenneling all day has been discussed. No one wants to see them kenneled all day, so this is some of the exercise they get. Many trainers walk their dogs on leash around the track compound too, which is usually around a mile or so round trip. They also sprint dogs, school them, etc, so believe me, they get PLENTY of exercise.


Not only that, but greyhounds IME are not "busy busy" dogs. When they're doing something active they are very engaged in and enjoying it, but as sprinters they seem to know how to fully take advantage of their "down time" to rest and recharge instead of wasting their energy buzzing around.




Jacksons Mom said:


> I guess my main issue with the Greyhound racing is the after-life. It just seems unfair to me to have them only know this ONE life (which I don't have a problem with) but then when they're done... they get put into this life that they know NOTHING about. I just don't see why they can't be more acclimiated to it during their racing years so it's not being thrown into this whole new world.


Dogs go from one situation to another all the time. Moving, changing families, starting in new dog sports, another dog added to the household, owners having a baby... all things dogs have to acclimate to. The nice thing about dogs is that most of them are infinitely adaptable with a little consideration on our parts.


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## Xeph

> That's the beauty of dogs though. They don't sit around and live in the past like humans tend to do, nor for the most part sit around and shudder with dread about what the future might hold. I tried to make one of my semi-wild cats tame after he trap/spay. I kept her in a small, heated room so she would get use to me and I figured she'd LOVE having all the food to herself, the freedom to lounge and be warm, and not have to compete with "other" cats in order to get those resources. She HATED it, and went from semi-wild to completely feral. At the beginning, she would slink across the room and hide whenever I walked in. By the time she was there for a week, she would EXPLODE whenever I walked in the room, knocking things over and sending her food/water flying as she did massive attempts to get out. (Ever seen a panicked cat run into a window or door, repededly? It's not fun.) She didn't exactly "love" the new life I was offering her, and she didn't see it as "better" even though she really shouldn't have had a care in the world. What looks nice and cushy for us isn't exactly what they want. We boarded a maltese a few years back whose owner were insistent that this dog wanted nothing except a warm, plush (designer) bed. God forbid he get "dirty". By the second day the dog was insane, barking, spinning, etc. I took him outside, and he romped in the mud, ran, and had a blast. (Yes, he did get a bath before he went home <G>). But I guess my point is it looks much better to human eyes to have a dog poised on a dog bed in someones home than it does the dog being covered in mud or any other situation that doesn't meet our criteria for "good".
> Auz likes to eat cap poop. I don't consider that "nice", so I prevent him from doing so. Given the chance, he'd scarf it down in a heartbeat. It may not be natural for dogs to live in kennels and be muzzled in turnout lots for their own safety, but lets face it. Leashes, crates, training classes, and veterinarians aren't natural either. Again, JM2C.


I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to make sense.


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## LazyGRanch713

Xeph said:


> I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to make sense.


I rarely do. Let me have my moment. PLEEEEASE?

BTW here's my happy dog, covered in mud 









Wait for meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...




































I have officially hijacked the thread. Done.


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## Jacksons Mom

I love the pics! I don't know if that was directed towards me or not, because I certainly allow my dog to get muddy, dirty and be a dog. That's not at all the point I was trying to make. I wasn't even trying to make a "point", really, just get an understanding of a world I know next to nothing about. I totally agree that there's a heck of a lot of "house dogs" that are treated poorly and are not happy, being cooped up all day inside of a home. I'm not saying _anything_ about Greyhound racing is "unnatural" because it's clearly not. Obviously training classes, leashes, etc aren't 'natural' but when dogs became domesticated, that's just what happened. You guys are very right, what I love about dogs so much is how adaptable they are to lots of situations. It's just hard for *me *personally to view a dog as 'livestock'. That's ALL I'm sayin'.

Here's my "miserable" housedog who lives indoors, sleeps in my bed every night, is my best friend and every day companion:




























And nothing in the world makes me happier than see him like this:










So I *totally* get how awesome it is to see dogs loving what they are doing and doing what they were bred for. Jackson would love nothing more than to hunt rats and mice all day long, I'm sure. But he's first and foremost my pet before anything. Lots of dogs do a variety of other dog sports and I've never heard of any other sport where a dog actually lives a so-called "kennel-life" and doesn't even have an owner, so this is all really new to me and I've never heard of it before. So excuse my ignorance, I'm learning.


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## Shaina

Wow....surprised this thread took on such a life of its own. I thought Keechak had summed it up very well in the second or third post, and didn't bother repeating her at the time...basically that there is real dog abuse in the world, both in pet homes and in true working homes. Quibbling over who's doing it best out of the "pretty darn goods" seems rather silly. 

Food, water, a secure place to rest, and frequent opportunities to really stretch those legs and use that brain...haven't met a dog yet who doesn't thrive on that recipe. 





RaeganW said:


> A friend of mine has a retired racer. Mossy was straight from the track, and had to learn about stairs and things, but is now a totally normal dog. Heck, I know dogs that have been pets their whole life that don't know how stairs work. They've had her for several years now. She even gets to go to Greyhound playgroup.


Erm, yeah Webster was the same way at a year old when I brought him home. Fortunately he is about as timid as a jackhammer and adjusted quickly.


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## LazyGRanch713

Jacksons Mom said:


> I love the pics! I don't know if that was directed towards me or not, because I certainly allow my dog to get muddy, dirty and be a dog. That's not at all the point I was trying to make. I wasn't even trying to make a "point", really, just get an understanding of a world I know next to nothing about. I totally agree that there's a heck of a lot of "house dogs" that are treated poorly and are not happy, being cooped up all day inside of a home. I'm not saying _anything_ about Greyhound racing is "unnatural" because it's clearly not. Obviously training classes, leashes, etc aren't 'natural' but when dogs became domesticated, that's just what happened. You guys are very right, what I love about dogs so much is how adaptable they are to lots of situations. It's just hard for *me *personally to view a dog as 'livestock'. That's ALL I'm sayin'.
> 
> Here's my "miserable" housedog who lives indoors, sleeps in my bed every night, is my best friend and every day companion:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And nothing in the world makes me happier than see him like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I *totally* get how awesome it is to see dogs loving what they are doing and doing what they were bred for. Jackson would love nothing more than to hunt rats and mice all day long, I'm sure. But he's first and foremost my pet before anything. Lots of dogs do a variety of other dog sports and I've never heard of any other sport where a dog actually lives a so-called "kennel-life" and doesn't even have an owner, so this is all really new to me and I've never heard of it before. So excuse my ignorance, I'm learning.


I wasn't directing anything at you, honest  I just see it a lot IRL, people think their dogs (usually small dogs) are "happy" because they have designer clothes, designer dog beds, and they wear jewelry and necklaces etc. My dogs have fancy collars, pretty leashes, bandanas, and Dude even has a few coats and shirts because they act like a TTouch anxiety wrap when he's having an allergy flare-up. (Don't ask me why it works, but it does). But like Jackson, they also get to swim, get dirty, run, play sports, and be dogs.
I can see the other side of the fence because I know and have talked to people who have dogs who work. LGD's, hunting retrievers, and sheepdogs are friends, partners, and defenders, and some ARE pets as well. But not all. And my only argument is that the dogs aren't covered in mud clumps, sadly sitting in a pile of wet, moldy straw in a drafty nasty barn with little tears running down their faces because they can't live in the house, kwim? How many of us have read about sheepdogs whos work on the farm is considered better than 10 humans? You can't have a good working dog (sighthound or not) and treat them like crap.


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## Shaina

P.S. This picture made me LOL



Jacksons Mom said:


>


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