# 5 year old Dobie bit wife.



## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

Got a call today from a gentleman regarding his 5 year old Doberman. Apparently this dog has had six biting incidents in his lifetime. Not all have broken skin but the most recent bite did. The biggest problem is that the person he bit was the wife of the gentleman. The owner advised us the dog has been through several obedience classes etc. I guess someone came to the door and the dog wanted to go see who it was, the wife grabs the dog to go put him away and in turn he bites her. They are currently waiting the 14 days for the rabies info to come back. The owner stated at one point they made an agreement that if the dog ever bit one of them that he would be put down. I guess they are rethinking that avenue. I have several ideas to try to help them but any info from the board would be appreciated. Thanks


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I would install a door ritual right away, like settling in on a mat when the door bell rings, and staying settled until released to greet the guest. Not knowing the dog it's hard to say if this is the best place to start. I'm sure if the dog is allowed to approach the door to begin with you'll have to instruct them on NILIF and working diligently on impulse control. 

Do you know anything about the dog's greeting behavior of strangers while on lead?

I'd also look for any disconnects between the owners and the dog. For example, unwarranted punishments or excessive punishments, forced isolation, lack of attention towards the dog, inadvertently reinforcing guarding behaviors, lack of praise towards the dog.

Why did the dog bite? We don't know and can only venture guesses. Were the bites a part of play ritual? Was the dog taught bite inhibition? Was it redirected aggression? Barrier frustration? What did the other biting incidents entail? Where were the bites? These are things I'd like to know.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

My first thought is that I was going to have them work on a long down and stay....in the end I would like them to reach 30 minutes. I'm going Friday to meet the dog and owner and I will have more of an understanding of the situation.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Obviously if the dog rushes you, a long down stay may be a secondary thought, lol, but I would agree that's a great place to start.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Who handled dog in obed. classes and what kind were they. goody-goody feel good classes or negative motivation type or combo of both. Were there any consequences to dog after any of these bites etc. 6 bites is a lot of bites. The couple may be over dogged (to much dog for them) The very next bite could be easier for the dog as escalation of this habit can happen. It sounds like it already has become easier. Life is full of choices and I would not tell people to put their dog down. I will say if he were my personal house dog we would be still rolling around on the ground. My opinion only.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

K9 Conversation said:


> My first thought is that I was going to have them work on a long down and stay....in the end I would like them to reach 30 minutes. I'm going Friday to meet the dog and owner and I will have more of an understanding of the situation.



That's going to take some pretty intense training. It certainly looks impressive in the obedience ring but why not teach a boundary stay? 
Any natural threshold/boundary (wood floor/carpet/tile/top of stairs) is easier to teach and the dog doesn't have to stay perfectly still...he just can't cross the boundary.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

I talked to the owner again.....I asked him exactly what happened when the dog bit and if his wife corrected the behavior when it happened. He stated that she was startled and just put the dog outside. I advised them to practice the down and stay on a blanket or dog bed etc. for the time being.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

TooneyDogs said:


> That's going to take some pretty intense training. It certainly looks impressive in the obedience ring but why not teach a boundary stay?
> Any natural threshold/boundary (wood floor/carpet/tile/top of stairs) is easier to teach and the dog doesn't have to stay perfectly still...he just can't cross the boundary.


Ditto...the dog, at any rate, needs to learn that the owners greet people at the door first NOT HIM!!! Keeping a lead on the dog, that you can grab, instead of having to grab the collar may help too; especially if he goes to 'violate' his boundary line regarding greeting. If he tries to sneak past the owner, they can simply pick up the lead or step on it, and call the dog instead of potentially startling him by grabbing the collar alone.


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

Obviously my opinion will be in the minority. I'm okay with that though, as I think the issue is too important not to speak up. In fact, it even prompted me to register, so this is my first post. I'll get right to it.

The dog should be destroyed.

It's a sad thing when it comes to this. We can blame the owners, training, whatever we like; we can dream up a hundred tricks that might prevent this particular bite from happening the next time; but all that is irrelevant. This is a large, powerful, and out of control animal with a history of violent behavior -- and not just towards humans in general -- but even towards its owners.

The NEXT bite, and I think we all know that unless the dog is killed there WILL be a next, might be the bite that rips some little girls face off, leaving her a scarred monster. The next bite might be the one that kills his wife, or the postman, or little Bobby playing basketball down the street. The next bite might be the one that gets every Dobby in the state banned and seized and destroyed. 

And all that because the owner now (and those of us either indirectly or directly offering advice) lacked the courage to render judgement. Yes it is a sad thing, but I would rather grieve the death of one dog than have to look a weeping parent in the eye and explain why my dog ruined her child.

Chris


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Chris_Texas said:


> The dog should be destroyed.


IMO you're being too quick to execute the dog. He's only punctured once and it was probably to the hand. If we were to destroy ever animal that broke the thin skin on our hand every puppy would be euthanized minutes after they are born. You can't take a bit incident, or even 6, and say a dog should be euthanized. One broken skin incident does not call for euthanization. Now if the dog bit every person in the neck or face, perhaps euthanization is an option. But until this dog has been evaluated, no decision about the dog's life should be questioned.

Welcome to our forum btw!


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> IMO you're being too quick to execute the dog. He's only punctured once and it was probably to the hand. If we were to destroy ever animal that broke the thin skin on our hand every puppy would be euthanized minutes after they are born. You can't take a bit incident, or even 6, and say a dog should be euthanized. One broken skin incident does not call for euthanization. Now if the dog bit every person in the neck or face, perhaps euthanization is an option. But until this dog has been evaluated, no decision about the dog's life should be questioned.


And yet that is exactly the judgement I came to. All the debate and evaluation in the world will not change the fact that this is a dog that believes that biting humans is acceptable. If I seem hasty it is not because I am in a rush to condemn this dog, but that I am in a rush to save the next victim -- and I think we both know that there WILL be a next victim. 




> Welcome to our forum btw!


Thanks!


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## doggone6 (Sep 7, 2007)

I will have to firmly agree with Chris TX on this one. Simply put, a family/companion dog can NOT bite! The first bite puts the dog on probation, and the second one sends it to be euthanized.

It is particularly disturbing to me that this 5-year-old dog bit its owner...there is a BIG difference between a puppy's play bites as it learns what is and is not acceptable and a mature dog that draws blood. If the dog has a history of biting and behaves this way towards someone it should be absolutely subordinate to, there will indeed be a next victim.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Chris_Texas said:


> All the debate and evaluation in the world will not change the fact that this is a dog that believes that biting humans is acceptable.


This assumes the dog is making a moral judgment...I don't know dogs to be capable of morality. Only the human owner has that ability, thus, figuring out why the dog is biting is the moral thing to do. Dogs bite the minute they are born and we place them in a human world. We owe them the right to live for making this sacrifice, and we owe it to our humanity to review all options.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Before I would be willing to condemn a dog to death, I would want to know more details about the bite. For instance when the dog bit the owner was it because she grabbed to dog by the skin inflicting pain. I mean, I also am all for putting the vicious dog to sleep don't get me wrong. Another good point you made is for the overall reputation of the breed as a whole. The story above is very vague and I would want to know more before making that call. Either way, if this dog is to be kept alive then they need to be making some great efforts to keep everyone safe. Professional training is a must. They cannot say, they can handle it themselves because if they could they would not be in this position. Also the dog should be checked out medically to make sure there are no physical problems leading to these bites. They need a really good trainer/behaviorist to evaluate this dog ASAP. If the owners of this dog do not wish to make this commitment to this dog then I would have to agree with Putting the dog to sleep. It is not fair to the dog any more then it is to the victims to not take this very seriously. On a side note, I did have a dog with a bite history that I adopted. It later went on to be a fantastic obedient family dog. Even worked as a Therapy dog in nursing homes. It can be done. In that case however, the dog was re homed as the home it was in was in part the problem.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

It's mind-boggling, I can actually agree with all posts. The problem we have is lack of info. That's why I stated in earlier post I would not tell anybody to put their dog down. I spent 12 years training protection dogs, send me one that already bites makes the job much easier. Then I just had to teach them the when/who/why and release. Yes, there are also incorrigible dogs and misjudged dogs, dumb dogs, smart dogs, dumb owners, smart owners and all the variables in-between. Problem here, is nobody really knows what the dog is, whats been done, what kind of bites the 1st 5 were and so on and so forth. As I stated in earlier post if he were my personal house dog we would still be rolling around on the floor, but putting him down would not be an option because a 5 year old incorrigible dog would not have lasted 5 years in my home. My opinion only.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

The details are pretty sparse, but it sounds like redirected aggression, which most certainly can be resolved with careful, consistent training. The history of bites is a little more concerning...need more details about those events.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

K9, look at the top of the forum in the stickies, there is one there called "Greeting Politely at the Door" Print that up and it will help the owners with their "homework" if you give them a copy, it works well. As far as the wife being bitten I think many bites occur due to collar grabbing. What were the other situations when someone was bitten?



Chris_Texas said:


> Obviously my opinion will be in the minority. I'm okay with that though, as I think the issue is too important not to speak up. In fact, it even prompted me to register, so this is my first post. I'll get right to it.
> 
> The dog should be destroyed.
> 
> ...


Often I would agree with you, particularly if I had all the details. I don't and would like them before I pass judgement. If the dog was protecting it's family and the other bites were grab and holds, then I would NOT euthinize. We all know that a Dobe's instinct is to protect, that's what they are bred for, that instinct has to be properly trained or it can go haywire. It does sound like the dog needs more structure in it's life, it needs to be taught to follow the cues from the owners and not make it's own decisions. 

I would teach the wife to 'body block' the dog to back it down and NOT to grab the collar. She is at fault in this as much as the dog.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

update......and it's not good. we go over and are talking to the owners about the biting. the dog is outside. we decide that its time to let the dog in the house to meet it. my wife and i are sitting on their couch acting like nothing. the dog comes in, walks past the male owner, walks by me, straight to my wife who is sitting next to me. dog smells my wife for about a second and just instantly bites her in the chest area. the bite is a puncture wound and i am currently sitting in the emergency room writing this. she will be ok but the dog has seen its last days. the owners were shocked as much as we were. they also have grandchildren and cant allow this behavior. wow what a night.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

OMG-that is awful. I hope the puncture to your wife is not serious. I wish things could have worked out differently.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

we all wish it could have turned out different. my wife was crying because it was determined to put the dog down after he bit her. dogs are our life and we hate to see anyones dog put down.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I wish there were a muzzle on that dog. Why was your wife there? I'm sorry this happened this way.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

shes a dog trainer. i've mainly worked with police dogs.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I wish there were a muzzle on that dog. Why was your wife there? I'm sorry this happened this way.


Why wouldn't his wife be there? Dog's our their lives, i'm sure she wanted to help. 
Isn't there -no kill shelters- that would take these types of dogs so they wouldn't have to be put down.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

LMH said:


> Why wouldn't his wife be there? Dog's our their lives, i'm sure she wanted to help.


I wouldn't think on a first assessment you'd bring the whole family, especially to a dog of unknown temperament. I asked the question because I had hoped she were a trainer. Turns out she is.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

I hope you learned something, that may be all you are able to take from this incident. It could have gone much worse (if the dog had bit your wife in the face or eye) but it didn't. Live and learn...


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## Dobermaniac (Jul 28, 2007)

LMH said:


> Why wouldn't his wife be there? Dog's our their lives, i'm sure she wanted to help.
> Isn't there -no kill shelters- that would take these types of dogs so they wouldn't have to be put down.


Who is going to want a 5 year old Dobe with a history of biting? I hate the idea of putting down a dog, but in this case I don't see any other option. Shelters should be reserved for dogs that have a chance to be adopted. Unfortunatly this dogs owners let this situation escalate to the point of no return. Had they nipped it in the butt right away, the dog may still have his life. Perhaps there is more to this story, but if everything is as been reported, than I see no other option than putting the dog to sleep.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

K9 Conversation said:


> we all wish it could have turned out different. my wife was crying because it was determined to put the dog down after he bit her. dogs are our life and we hate to see anyones dog put down.


Well you were there and that puts a whole new view on things. I said on earlier post about dogs/incorrigible/over-dogged and stuff. Putting this dog down is only choice as it would be like playing Russian roulette living with dog now. With this new information and the way he acted pre-bite there is no other choice. It sounds like he has moved to the incorrigible program. It's a sorry ending. To a Dog trainer getting bit is like a carpenter hitting his thumb with a hammer, it comes with the territory. It hurts but I'm sure K9s wife has been nailed before. It is better than a child etc. I have to give Chris from Texas his props he did foresee the future. I still stand by my earlier posts about not advising to put dog down, not enough info then, but dogs like people only get so many chances in life and this dog definitely had his share. K9s I know you feel bad, but you might have saved somebody from severe injury *and not all dog problems are solvable.*


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## mom2kdg (Jan 12, 2007)

Wow, I hope your wife is okay. What a story. I feel bad for everyone that is involved. To put a dog down is not an easy choice. I'm at a loss for words. 

Luckily, you were there to try and help the situation. Your poor wife must have been scared to death.  Tell her not to be to hard on herself, it's not her fault. 

Geez, I hope she is going to be okay.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

Thanks everyone....


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

I am so sorry things turned out this way...

How's your wife?


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your wife. Sorry it trurned out the way that it did.

Happy to hear that the dog will be destroyed before it can injure anyone else.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am sorry it ended this way as well. I believe there was something very wrong with this dog, not just bad training. Walking up to someone out of the blue and biting them in the chest is much different then a dog feeling restrained or threatened. Putting this dog down would have been the only option at that point. I am sorry your wife got hurt first. Not all dogs that bite have to be put down. It depends on the circumstances involved. In this case there wasn't enough information early on but with this last bit it becomes very clear. Very sad for everyone involved.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

Wifes doing good. She didn't really freak out. It comes with the territory.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LMH said:


> Why wouldn't his wife be there? Dog's our their lives, i'm sure she wanted to help.
> Isn't there -no kill shelters- that would take these types of dogs so they wouldn't have to be put down.


A dog that is biting like this is dangerous! There is no going to a no kill shelter nor to rescue neither will accept it. The best thing that can be done is to euthinize, it's the only way to assure safety.



rvamutt said:


> I hope you learned something, that may be all you are able to take from this incident. It could have gone much worse (if the dog had bit your wife in the face or eye) but it didn't. Live and learn...


Why would you feel the need to say this to professional dog trainers? the fact is every time a trainer goes to a persons house for behavioral issues there is a chance of a bite. They know the risk and are willing to take it to help a dog and it's owners.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

*Why would you feel the need to say this to professional dog trainers? the fact is every time a trainer goes to a persons house for behavioral issues there is a chance of a bite. They know the risk and are willing to take it to help a dog and it's owners.*

Amen, as stated in earlier replies it does come with the territory.
One thing I have noticed though as you get older and weather turns cold these bites do come back to haunt you.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Inga said:


> I am sorry it ended this way as well. I believe there was something very wrong with this dog, not just bad training. Walking up to someone out of the blue and biting them in the chest is much different then a dog feeling restrained or threatened. Putting this dog down would have been the only option at that point. I am sorry your wife got hurt first. Not all dogs that bite have to be put down. It depends on the circumstances involved. In this case there wasn't enough information early on but with this last bit it becomes very clear. Very sad for everyone involved.


I completely agree with this.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Why would you feel the need to say this to professional dog trainers? the fact is every time a trainer goes to a persons house for behavioral issues there is a chance of a bite. They know the risk and are willing to take it to help a dog and it's owners.


You assume a lot when you rule out that I'm not a "professional dog trainer" myself. It was dangerous to allow a dog with a history of bites to greet the room at his leisure, unleashed, unmuzzled, and with at least two strangers there. The dog could have easily bit her in the throat or eye. We all make mistakes, I've made enough for everyone I'm sure and the best way to learn is a little constructive criticism. I'm sorry I'm not going to hold his hand and tell him he did everything right etc. If I know guys who protection train dogs (any I know a few) then I'm sure he has some pretty thick skin and I didn't hurt his feelings.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

rvamutt said:


> You assume a lot when you rule out that I'm not a "professional dog trainer" myself. It was dangerous to allow a dog with a history of bites to greet the room at his leisure, unleashed, unmuzzled, and with at least two strangers there. The dog could have easily bit her in the throat or eye. We all make mistakes, I've made enough for everyone I'm sure and the best way to learn is a little constructive criticism. I'm sorry I'm not going to hold his hand and tell him he did everything right etc. If I know guys who protection train dogs (any I know a few) then I'm sure he has some pretty thick skin and I didn't hurt his feelings.


Being in the dog business a long time, I have a standard rule I go by and I tell customers with new dogs that if I get bit it's usually when owner is there (dog is stronger in owner's presence) I'm going to assume that since the 2 people both worked dogs they are as smart as I am which isn't a big thing. I do agree with you on your reply not hurting anybody's feelings as we are suppose to be adults. Constructive criticism is good. They are also free to use it or not. One thing is certain that they probably did learn something from the experience. I am not a fanboy of any trainers going to peoples homes to work dogs anyway. I had an aquaintance who started one of the visit your home type of training programs. He hired people off the street to do the training with a very short crash course and a lot of bull**it. The type of dogs I get are spoiled sometimes nasty types and I would not go into their cave/home to attempt training. My Opinion Only.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> I am not a fanboy of any trainers going to peoples homes to work dogs anyway. The type of dogs I get are spoiled sometimes nasty types and I would not go into their cave/home to attempt training.


If you're referring to obedience work, that can be done outside of the home, and you can give those skills to the owner to work on in the home. But if you're referring to behavior modification work, you need to know all the stimuli that's driving the behavior, and without going into the owner's home, you don't have the full picture.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If you're referring to obedience work, that can be done outside of the home, and you can give those skills to the owner to work on in the home. But if you're referring to behavior modification work, you need to know all the stimuli that's driving the behavior, and without going into the owner's home, you don't have the full picture.


Exactly! We also don't have anyone else working for us.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If you're referring to obedience work, that can be done outside of the home, and you can give those skills to the owner to work on in the home. But if you're referring to behavior modification work, you need to know all the stimuli that's driving the behavior, and without going into the owner's home, you don't have the full picture.


CP
That's why I used the word trainers in home. Both people were suppose to be trainers, one works with police dogs and wife is dog trainer. In no way does this tell me how much actual experience that they really have in the training of dogs. I was just offering my expertise by explaining my program or thoughts on going to a home where a possible alligator lies in wait. I would not attempt to say anything about behavior modification experts as I have no knowledge of that type of program. I myself want to see the dog away from home so I may judge if it's a bad dog or a bad owner. This is strictly from a trainer type though.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> *and not all dog problems are solvable.*


THAT is so very very true. It is also a VERY hard thing for a dog owner, especially a pet dog owner, to accept. 

This statement also applies to other species of animals.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Gees this post scares me,i always say in my head "my dogs would never ever bite anyone" but who knows.

I can only say this is the reason that socialization and training,also raising a loving family pet are so crucial.

I can honestly say i dont know what i'd do.probably emigrate because my dogs are'nt getting put down for nothing.

Hopefully this situation will never happen for me,sorry it did for you.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> A dog that is biting like this is dangerous! There is no going to a no kill shelter nor to rescue neither will accept it. The best thing that can be done is to euthinize, it's the only way to assure safety.


But the point of a no kill shelter is for dogs in this situation who live out the rest of their lives there with people who understand them. The fact that the dog didn't charge them when he first saw them, didn't even charge the wife says that he is very missed understood. I can't say I agree or disagree with the decision,it's just what happened. But there are places for these types of dogs but i'm sure it is hard to get them into.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

No kill shelters will not accept a dog like this. They won't take chances that the staff members will get bitten. Plus most no kill shelters adopt out their dogs, a dog that bites is not adoptable. Sorry, that's just the way it is.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> No kill shelters will not accept a dog like this. They won't take chances that the staff members will get bitten. Plus most no kill shelters adopt out their dogs, a dog that bites is not adoptable. Sorry, that's just the way it is.


Nothing to be sorry about just wanting to know more about these no kill shelters that i've seen on t.v. like "dogtown". they have some of the most aggressive dogs there. Maybe I just watch too much t.v.-haha.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> No kill shelters will not accept a dog like this. They won't take chances that the staff members will get bitten. Plus most no kill shelters adopt out their dogs, a dog that bites is not adoptable. Sorry, that's just the way it is.


TRUE,but "the way it is" is so hard to come to terms with sometimes?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

It can be, but you always have to put the safety of others FIRST. From the sound of it this dog wasn't stable mentally, the only choice was euthinization. It's even worse to experience it yourself I assure you.



LMH said:


> Nothing to be sorry about just wanting to know more about these no kill shelters that i've seen on t.v. like "dogtown". they have some of the most aggressive dogs there. Maybe I just watch too much t.v.-haha.


I've never heard of "Dogtown" I don't think I'd ever want to go there if they take in aggressive dogs. I do know htere are special shelters where nonaggessive dogs and cats can spend their lives, but it's very hard to get an animal in them as they become overcrowded very easily.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> I've never heard of "Dogtown" I don't think I'd ever want to go there if they take in aggressive dogs. I do know htere are special shelters where nonaggessive dogs and cats can spend their lives, but it's very hard to get an animal in them as they become overcrowded very easily.


Actually that Dogtown place is a sanctuary where they do eventually adopt them out after a year of rehabiliation. I've had to make that sort of decision and I hope I never have to.


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

PTS is pretty final I would check out other options first.

*It's quite possible the dog has a medical problems. Is anyone going to contact a vet for a medical evaluation before any drastic action as PTS?*

As previously suggested, I would contact Best Friends in UT. Dog Town is a wonderful place where dogs are rehabilitated and adopted out or live out their lives in Dog Town.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

*People nobody wants to put a dog down* If I have the bite count correct *(7) It's time. *There is a dog out there that would love to be living/taking the place of this dog. (not going to take his place) but a new chapter with a new dog can start. It might even be a rescued dog. Just think for a few minutes, you would be on pins and needles just walking by this dog, not knowing if he will fire off on you.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I must agree with WV. 

Dogs are an investment of time, money and (most of all for pet dog owners) HEART. With so many GOOD DOGS out there that are sitting in shelters on Death Row, WHY work so hard to save a REALLY BAD ONE.. and there ARE really bad ones out there. Some are made bad by abuse and neglect (nurture) and some are bad due to genetics or mental issues (nature.. hard wiring if you will). As stated, NO ONE WANTS TO PUT A DOG TO SLEEP. However, if the choice is between a dog in a shelter who is a Good dog left there by a family that is "moving" or a dog that has bitten people seven times and who walked up top a stranger with the INTENT to bite, the choice seems like a no brainer. 

I rescued and rehab-ed and resold horses for a number of years. I did not take just any horse. The horse had to be physically sound enough to make the job worth it (and by worth it I do not mean financially worth it but woprth it because the horse had athletic potential). In the case of a horse, the outlay financially to keep the animal is considerable. Therefore, if the animal is a "pile of soap bones" (not all horses are built physically sound) AND is in need of mental/training rehab, it isn't worth it. These animals, whether they are permanently lame or simply poorly conformed (there are BYB's of horses too) are the animals that end up in your dog's RAW diet.... and that may ultimately be the kindest route. With so many really GOOD horses out there in need of rescue, I was not going to take ones that were not. 

Training and finances and heart go into every dog owned by anyone who is interested in their pet. That effort is the same on a good one as a bad one. Might as well spend it on a good one. 

In this case, the dog had been around for 5 years. That is a lot of effort into a bad one IMO. No one has to agree with me.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> *People nobody wants to put a dog down* If I have the bite count correct *(7) It's time. *


Now if this dog had a thyroid problem (was a vet check done?) that could be easily remedied with medication, it's hasty IMO to euthanize a dog who previously had not sent anyone to the ER. Dogs bite, that's what they do, but if this dog had the intention of hurting the people he bit, he could have very easily sent them all to the ER. The fact is he didn't, and that suggest some control or at the very least bite inhibition. That to me is the most important factor when gaging a bite record. Not how many times the dog bit. The owners could have put the dog in a compromising position 7 times, is that fair? Heck, if 7 is the limit, every puppy in America should be in line waiting for euthanasia. "It's time" when all appropriate avenues have been covered. We don't know that to be true in this case.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

K9 Conversation said:


> the bite is a puncture wound and i am currently sitting in the emergency room writing this.


The dog DID send someone to the ER... 

I agree that biting is what dogs do and the fact is, most of the time I agree with you CSP.. we are mostly on the same page. 

I may be wrong but I think this might have been one of those "hard eyed" dogs that Jean Donaldson talks about in her books. Of course, from this location (forum) we can't know this.. we have not met the dog. The owner obviously put some effort in avoiding this outcome and they know the dog better than we do so their decision is likely based on more information than we have. 

I think this is a very healthy discussion.. this entire thread.. as it takes up a subject that is often taboo among dog lovers. I really appreciate the different view points.

I also appreciate this as I have never had a bad dog. I am learning waht to look foor and expect if I ever DID get a 'bad' dog (and this thread reinforces the need to prevent behavior that is unacceptable through training).

Maybe I pick 'em well or they pick me well.. or maybe I am just lucky or maybe they know it when they have hit the doggy and kitty lotto jackpot coming to my house..


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

WOW! Curb, you are a very forgiving person when it comes to dog bites. I do understand what you are saying however, and I agree that one should exhaust all options first. I don't think it should take 7 bites to get going on it though. One bite and I would be in to the vet getting blood draws and looking long and hard at what happened. With my dog breed of choice though I really don't have the luxury of time when it comes to such things. Thank God I have never had to make that decision based on biting from my dogs. Hope I never have to. With rescues one never knows though.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Now if this dog had a thyroid problem (was a vet check done?) that could be easily remedied with medication, it's hasty IMO to euthanize a dog who previously had not sent anyone to the ER. Dogs bite, that's what they do, but if this dog had the intention of hurting the people he bit, he could have very easily sent them all to the ER. The fact is he didn't, and that suggest some control or at the very least bite inhibition. That to me is the most important factor when gaging a bite record. Not how many times the dog bit. The owners could have put the dog in a compromising position 7 times, is that fair? Heck, if 7 is the limit, every puppy in America should be in line waiting for euthanasia. "It's time" when all appropriate avenues have been covered. We don't know that to be true in this case.


CP
On my 1st post, I agreed whole heartedly with you and said that putting dog down with the info available would not be correct. As far as puppy bites, my own opinion is that there's not much a puppy can do wrong. That being said, with adult dogs I myself have a 3 strikes and your done rule. I personally have to see the dog's 3 bites though. The description of the Dobe's last bite changed my mind and I swung to the dark side. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Elana
*I also appreciate this as I have never had a bad dog. I am learning what to look for and expect if I ever DID get a 'bad' dog (and this thread reinforces the need to prevent behavior that is unacceptable through training).*

With the total animal experience you have, I believe you will know when you have a bad one. If not immediately, it won't take long. Having a bad dog would not be a problem for some handlers. Many years ago there were many Police Dept's. whose K9s were 1 or 2 steps the other side of insanity. Dogs used then would be washed out of K9 training programs now. I have seen and helped work some of the dogs used in a prison. Not extensively but enough to see attitudes. One nice thing about being older is I don't have to surmise or guess about different dog's attitudes. I have seen a lot of dogs.
I too agree with a this being a great thread.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

I'm with curbside on this one. Not all the options were exhausted before euthanizing the dog. What were the situation behind the previous bites? What constitutes a bite? A full grown doberman could easily maul just about anyone. The fact that he "bit" 7 times means that he held back...that doesn't sound like a vicous dog, it sounds like a do with issues. No one took him to the vet but its the trainers job to suggest that. There are very few dogs (no matter what Jean Donaldson has led you to believe) that are completely with out hope and there are places that take hard to fix dogs.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Inga said:


> WOW! Curb, you are a very forgiving person when it comes to dog bites.


I don't think I'd be stretching too far out on a limb if I said the root cause of most dog problems is human error. How can we blame this dog, unless we've made some attempt to remedy the problem? That wasn't done here, so I guess I am forgiving. In fact, the dog was most likely exposed to the problem, and now his life is compromised for that human error. Perhaps I should be less forgiving of that. I'm not assessing blame here, just trying to speak in general and work with the information we do have. Everyone has the right to be upset here. 

Part of assessing the dog's intent *is* in evaluating the bites, not so much the frequency. If the dog is frequently exposed to his issue, and the dog has learned biting works, is that the dog's problem? No. Chalk it up to human error. So, unless this dog has been psychologically assessed as flawed, he deserves a chance to learn an alternative behavior, and the owner deserves a chance to learn how to manage the dog. 

The act and art of behavior modification is largely the result of great observation and communication skills. With every interaction, both the handler and the dog are communicating one another's personal wants, needs and boundaries. The goal is to use this communication to get the desired behavior, and it's done by controlling the teaching sequence, not the dog. What part of allowing a known biter wander up to a stranger is the handler controlling? That's why I am forgiving.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't think I'd be stretching too far out on a limb if I said the root cause of most dog problems is human error. How can we blame this dog, unless we've made some attempt to remedy the problem? That wasn't done here, so I guess I am forgiving. In fact, the dog was most likely exposed to the problem, and now his life is compromised for that human error. Perhaps I should be less forgiving of that. I'm not assessing blame here, just trying to speak in general and work with the information we do have. Everyone has the right to be upset here.
> 
> Part of assessing the dog's intent *is* in evaluating the bites, not so much the frequency. If the dog is frequently exposed to his issue, and the dog has learned biting works, is that the dog's problem? No. Chalk it up to human error. So, unless this dog has been psychologically assessed as flawed, he deserves a chance to learn an alternative behavior, and the owner deserves a chance to learn how to manage the dog.
> 
> The act and art of behavior modification is largely the result of great observation and communication skills. With every interaction, both the handler and the dog are communicating one another's personal wants, needs and boundaries. The goal is to use this communication to get the desired behavior, and it's done by controlling the teaching sequence, not the dog. What part of allowing a known biter wander up to a stranger is the handler controlling? That's why I am forgiving.


CP 
You are preaching to the choir. I have stated in one of my replies about having little faith in people and human error runs rampant, people mistreat their kids through ignorance and lack of common sense that god gave a goose. That's a totally different forum though.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Elana55 said:


> The dog DID send someone to the ER...





CP said:


> who *previously* had not sent anyone to the ER


The dog sent someone to the ER only after yet another exposure to a trigger (the stranger). I know I'm being the Monday morning quarterback, but it's a point I can't seem to overlook.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree with that Curb. I am a "why?" person myself. I would have first wanted to know if the dog was healthy because walking up to a stranger and biting them in the chest is not just a dog that has gotten away with it, or a dog that was being provoked or cornered. Pretty much makes me wonder about health. I ask all the same questions when I deal with the dogs in rescue. I have yet to see one that is just plain mean and it's behavior cannot be explained. When I give up it is not because of the dog, but because of the owners inability of handle an issue. I also guess I tend to look at the bigger picture also. BSL My understanding was the dog has already been put to sleep. Is that a wrong assumption?


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> The dog sent someone to the ER only after yet another exposure to a trigger (the stranger). I know I'm being the Monday morning quarterback, but it's a point I can't seem to overlook.


Just for information purposes....the people that own the dog never really socialized him. Which is a *HUGE* part of the problem in my book. Yes, the male owner took him to training classes and such but never really exposed the dog enough. Also the dog has bit 7 women and 1 man....pattern? One of the bites consisted of the dog taking off from the property, going next door, and biting _the man_ and running home. The people do live in the country and I believe that that was the first bite.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

K9 Conversation said:


> Yes, the male owner took him to training classes and such but never really exposed the dog enough. Also the dog has bit 7 women and 1 man....pattern?


Well the "exposure" factor you speak of is a major player in this dogs problems.

Socialaztion is a key element in any dogs temperment and behavior traits.The less people and other dogs it has contact with the less its going to like.

End Result pattern?:normally biting.IMO.


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