# Is this a 'normal' grooming injury?



## beckyw (May 15, 2008)

My dog was at the groomer yesterday and came home with a large red abrasion under his chin. The groomer said my dog struggled some on the table, and then the abrasion got worse later when they weren't watching. I can only assume that he struggled so hard against the grooming noose that he rubbed his neck raw. The groomer thought it would be healed by today, but he's still obviously miserable and is not at all himself. 

Is this a common injury that is more or less an unavoidable consequence of normal grooming? I feel really angry with the groomer, but I'd like to know if my anger is misplaced. Anyone ever had this happen?


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

no its not- call your vet and then call the groomer and tell them you taking the dog to the vet. And report it to HS..


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I think they were alittle rough but no need to report them. It sounds like your dog hasn't been to the groomer alot and that he wasn't there as a puppy to get used to it that he freaked out because he was undersocialized in that area. But I would have a vet check it out and have them pay the bill and just choose a new groomer.


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## Twinney (Nov 4, 2007)

I've never had a dog professionally groomed, since all my dogs really require are brushes, bathes, and Shunka needs some trimming around the ears, but, IMO if your dog was struggling that hard against the noose, they should have had somebody else help them. Me being my hard headed self wouldn't of left the building until they knew my opinion on the deal. 



> no its not- call your vet and then call the groomer and tell them you taking the dog to the vet. And report it to HS..


I agree with borzoimom. The vet will be able to tell you how to treat it and such... You probably won't need to report it if it was your dogs first go around grooming. If it wasn't, then it would be the groomers fault and you should report it.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

I also agree... if he was struggling so hard and so panicked that the noose _cut him_, they should have either stopped the groom or taken him out of the noose. No excuse to have let him injure himself like that.


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## salask (Jul 31, 2007)

Was this his 1st groom?


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## beckyw (May 15, 2008)

Thanks for all the feedback. No, this wasn't the first time he'd been groomed, but he was a shelter dog and I'm not sure what his grooming history was before we adopted him (this was his second time since coming to live with us).

I've called the vet and I'm waiting anxiously for a call back. It's so depressing to see your dog so miserable!


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Pai said:


> I also agree... if he was struggling so hard and so panicked that the noose _cut him_, they should have either stopped the groom or taken him out of the noose. No excuse to have let him injure himself like that.





beckyw said:


> Thanks for all the feedback. No, this wasn't the first time he'd been groomed, but he was a shelter dog and I'm not sure what his grooming history was before we adopted him (this was his second time since coming to live with us).
> 
> I've called the vet and I'm waiting anxiously for a call back. It's so depressing to see your dog so miserable!


 They let something happen. Either he was unattended on a table and almost hung himself or something. Get the vet record and call them back. And I am sorry- I still would call the HS if nothing else for them to pay them a visit to watch the shop in their method of " grooming" and treatment of the dogs.. I wont comment what else I would do... ( the word lawyer comes to mind..)


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## Aggie (Mar 13, 2008)

Is it from the noose, or a razor burn?

The noose seems unacceptable to me; someone should always have a hand on the dog on the table.

A razor burn I might find acceptable if I'd never had problems with the groomer, and it's a very close shave where the dog might suddenly jerk and cause one. It's still something you shouldn't expect to see with practiced groomers, and dogs that are used to being groomed.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I do not find a razor burn acceptable- especially with those " trained" to groom. and the dog should have been seen by a vet right away. The fact they said the dog would be alright, and they are not a vet raises a serious eyebrow with me..


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

Sometimes razor burns happen if the dog is matted and needs to be shaved down or the owner wants the dog shaved down. Snoopy got razor burn one time when he was matted and I didn't know it and they had to shave him down.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Its not acceptable to injure a pet in grooming. Unless they are rushing and not paying attention- and THEN MORE unaccepable.


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## Franny Glass (Apr 23, 2008)

This is why I don't use a noose.


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## beckyw (May 15, 2008)

The groomer said it happened because Dexter (my dog) was unhappy with them trimming near his ears, so I'm assuming it was the noose; also, it seems too large of an area to be razor burn. It does really bother me that the groomer thought it was preferable to finish trimming near the ears and let Dex hurt himself, rather than stopping and telling me it wasn't safe to do. I would much rather have had him come home with furry ears!

The vet I talked to didn't seem terribly concerned and said I should wait to see how Dexter's doing tomorrow before bringing him in. He has perked up a bit and he hopped down off the sofa to eat his dinner.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

beckyw said:


> The groomer said it happened because Dexter (my dog) was unhappy with them trimming near his ears, so I'm assuming it was the noose; also, it seems too large of an area to be razor burn. It does really bother me that the groomer thought it was preferable to finish trimming near the ears and let Dex hurt himself, rather than stopping and telling me it wasn't safe to do. I would much rather have had him come home with furry ears!
> 
> The vet I talked to didn't seem terribly concerned and said I should wait to see how Dexter's doing tomorrow before bringing him in. He has perked up a bit and he hopped down off the sofa to eat his dinner.


 Yourrrrrrrrrrr groomer was rushing.. The dog suffered.. I know what I would do- its up to you what you would...


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## dane&cockermom (Oct 16, 2007)

beckyw said:


> The groomer said it happened because Dexter (my dog) was unhappy with them trimming near his ears, so I'm assuming it was the noose; also, it seems too large of an area to be razor burn. It does really bother me that the groomer thought it was preferable to finish trimming near the ears and let Dex hurt himself, rather than stopping and telling me it wasn't safe to do. I would much rather have had him come home with furry ears!
> 
> The vet I talked to didn't seem terribly concerned and said I should wait to see how Dexter's doing tomorrow before bringing him in. He has perked up a bit and he hopped down off the sofa to eat his dinner.


i agree. if the dog was struggling that much, i probably would have sent it home. 

but then, there are instinces like i had today. i started shaving a pom and got a little done on it's back. it was really matted so i had to go slow. i got about half the back shaved when the dog suddenly decided it wanted to eat me. i couldn't even turn on my clippers away from the dog without it freaking out. so i called mom and said i didn't feel comfortable doing it because the dog was either going to hurt me, or hurt itself. and mom freaked out on me. wanted me to keep going no matter what. needless to say, i didn't.

i so would have sent the dog home if it was that stressed out.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

I guess if I was there I would be able to give more 'advice'...

My gut says, that yes, something sounds a bit off...a dog shouldn't get such extensive abrasions from a grooming experience; not if the groomer has a hand on the dog to keep it from jumping off the table, or from backing off, if it is trying to back away. 

However, if the dog was flipping out simply because he didn't like what was being done, if they had 'stopped' all together, the dog would likely 'up his anty' the next grooming. On Saturday, I had one such dog...she actually grabbed two of my fingers and chomped away; and this was when I was just trying to put a muzzle on her...she's a dog that just doesn't like being groomed, especially her feet, face and ears. We did fine on her feet that day, but she wanted NOTHING to do with me going near her face...So I had to get a muzzle on her, or what would I have taught her? Snapping stops grooming...not acceptable in my humble opinion. Once I got the muzzle on, she still struggled a little bit, but nothing that caused damage. I just let her have her tantrum, and allowed the clippers to run at a 'safe distance' and she eventually quit. 

So, while I don't agree with the irritation (there are ways to prevent that), I am not so sure I would 'blame' the groomer for not stopping, either...they probably could have moved at a slower pace, but to not get the dog done, when it previously was able to be? 

Dog may have just had a bad day, or the groomers just haven't mentioned his attitude before this, too...who knows. We all expect our dogs to behave when at the groomer, and that just isn't always the case; people, from my perspective and experience, do not want to hear the Fido or Fluffy is a pain to groom...

Like I said, I do agree that the irritation could have been prevented, but unless I was there, I don't know that I would have stopped grooming the dog...


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

I really don't feel this is cause for calling the HS or initiating a lawsuit (if it happened more than once, yes, and if he was left unattended with the noose on, yes). Maybe it shouldn't have happend, but it did, there was an explanation given as to why, and while that may not be acceptable, accidents can, and do happen. 

The dog should be checked by a vet, and I'd require the groomer to pay for any vet treatment necessary, including x-rays, salve or whatever. IF that groomer walked away while the dog was on the table with the noose on, and he fell off the table - THAT would be inexcusable, and gross negligence. But, it sounds like he was struggling while she was trying to do his ears. Still not something desired, but it didn't happen through abuse or neglect. Hopefully, the groomer learned a lesson and it won't ever happen again. 

I would think that this groomer would be extra careful with him the next time. You could always take him somewhere else, but, there's no guarantee that groomer won't do (or not do) something that hurts or injures your dog. Should you decide to go elsewhere, just don't tell the new groomer about what that "bad" other groomer did to your dog. Because YOU, more likely than not, will be (unfairly in your case) suspect - about a number of things. Groomers hear all kinds of whacky stories about why their dog is messed up, and quite often it's really the owner. So, if you're going to switch groomers, start fresh with a clean slate, and don't talk about what the other groomer did. DO let them know that he struggles, and that the noose injures him. So they're forewarned, and can take measures to prevent.


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

there are a lot of people making some pretty strong accuasations here. before you tell someone to get a lawyer, you should know the facts. you dont know exactly what happened, all we have is the owners description, and even she can only go off of what little the groomer told her. i dont get why people are so jumpy with getting lawyers and reporting things to HS. whats the point? the dog was not seriously injured, and agin, we dont know the whole story. im sorry borzoimom that just seems so irrational to me. 

as far as the injury. im not saying you shouldnt be angry, but try and be a little understanding. your dog is a shelter dog who was more than likely not well socialized to grooming. he is more than likely difficult. i have groomed many dogs that "hang" themselves. these dogs always hang on the noose, no matter if they are gagging or cant breath, they just hang. you either dont use a noose on these dogs (which is usually impossible, id love to know how people groom without one), or you figure out a way around the hanging. i will usually not stop a grooming b/c a dog hangs himself. yes there is a limit to a dogs stress level, and there are signs to look for, but stopping a groom in the middle does teach the dog that whatever he did before you stopped is what he has to do to get the grooming to stop everytime. if a dog just plain doesnt like to be groomed, the groomer should not stop b/c the dog is hanging himself. he/she SHOULD NOT just let the dog hang himself, however, he/she should find a way to groom the dog so that the dog is not hanging. this is where you groomer screwed up. if a dog hangs for 5 seconds, a red mark appears, but goes away after a few mionutes. i cant imagine how long your dog hanged himself for the mark to still be there. i would call the grooming salon before you take the dog to the vet and talk to management. tell them what happened, that you are taking the dog to the vet, and would think it would be more than appropiate for them to pay the bill. i would be shocked if they said they wouldnt do it. if you use that salon again, i would not use the same groomer.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

That's why america is sue happy.


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## Franny Glass (Apr 23, 2008)

I agree with Purplex. 

Even with a very difficult dog, there is a way to SAFELY handle and restrain it, without causing injury to the dog or the groomer. In situations where there is no SAFE way, the dog should be sedated. Any groomer worth their salt will pony up and pay the vet bills for his or her own mistake.

I wouldn't call a lawyer at this point. Although what happened to your dog is terrible, it's far from the worst I've seen or heard off. I could tell you horror stories all day long. What counts is that your dog is fine now. And that the groomer should be willing to pay for his treatment. When I had just started to groom, a springer spaniel lunged at my face trying to bite me. I reacted too strongly, jumping up and knocking the table over, with the dog on it, the table landing on top of the dog. He ended up being fine, thankfully, but I paid for all his vet bills for being checked out and groomed him free of charge for a year. I've since gotten a more stable grooming table.  And some nice basket muzzles.

As for using a noose, I don't know how people do it. I never learned with one, and I find them awkward and annoying, personally.


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## beckyw (May 15, 2008)

I'm not planning to sue anyone, and although I do feel like I should get my money back (plus the vet costs), I'm more just angry that they hurt my dog. It's now been more than 2.5 days since we picked up Dexter, and he's still in bed all day, unable to be left alone for more than a few seconds for fear he will scratch his neck. He's on antibiotics and a steroid shot from the vet. Most upsetting to me, my normally high energy, cheerful dog, is completely lethargic and won't even respond to his name, interact with our other dog, or get off the sofa to eat a treat. The abrasion is a very large, very red, very bad looking wound (not a "red mark") that is only just beginning to look like it's scabbing over.

I don't know a lot about grooming, and I accept that Dexter may be very difficult to groom. I just don't think that allowing himself to hurt himself to this degree (and by the groomer's admission, the injury was probably a combination of the noose and their inattention to him after the groom) teaches him anything except to be terrified next time he goes to the groomer and will probably be much more difficult to groom. I do know something about training, and it seems like a better way to get a dog used to grooming is to give him treats until he relaxes around the clippers, not to continue clipping until he injures himself so badly that he's unable to enjoy life for the next 3+ days.

Honestly, I can't imagine ever taking my dog to another groomer again, unless possibly, I were allowed to watch the entire groom. I feel terrible that my shelter dog, who had God knows what happen to him before I got him, was subjected to another really traumatic experience at my behest.


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## Twinney (Nov 4, 2007)

IMO if you take him back to the grooming salon you should demand they pay the vet bills, and demand you watch the groom. I'm sure that the groomer will behave more when you are watching them. That way, if you think they are scewing up at all, you can put them back on track. I can understand a red mark that just goes away right away, but if it's still here the groomer scewed up really bad.
If I were the manager of the place the dog was groomed my groomer would need one REALLY good excuse to keep from loosing his/her job for hurting the dog like that. Or they would have to be extremely new to the business.


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

beckyw said:


> I'm not planning to sue anyone, and although I do feel like I should get my money back (plus the vet costs), I'm more just angry that they hurt my dog. It's now been more than 2.5 days since we picked up Dexter, and he's still in bed all day, unable to be left alone for more than a few seconds for fear he will scratch his neck. He's on antibiotics and a steroid shot from the vet. Most upsetting to me, my normally high energy, cheerful dog, is completely lethargic and won't even respond to his name, interact with our other dog, or get off the sofa to eat a treat. The abrasion is a very large, very red, very bad looking wound (not a "red mark") that is only just beginning to look like it's scabbing over.
> 
> I don't know a lot about grooming, and I accept that Dexter may be very difficult to groom. I just don't think that allowing himself to hurt himself to this degree (and by the groomer's admission, the injury was probably a combination of the noose and their inattention to him after the groom) teaches him anything except to be terrified next time he goes to the groomer and will probably be much more difficult to groom. I do know something about training, and it seems like a better way to get a dog used to grooming is to give him treats until he relaxes around the clippers, not to continue clipping until he injures himself so badly that he's unable to enjoy life for the next 3+ days.
> 
> Honestly, I can't imagine ever taking my dog to another groomer again, unless possibly, I were allowed to watch the entire groom. I feel terrible that my shelter dog, who had God knows what happen to him before I got him, was subjected to another really traumatic experience at my behest.



well, first off he is probably pretty lethargic from the medication he is on. but i have a feeling after reading this post that he is also picking up a lot of these feelings from you. you are making it a big deal, so your dog is feeding off it. its like when your baby falls down, if you rush over and make a big deal, the kid starts crying, but if you just say "you ok kid" they smile and keep playing. if you keep making this a big deal in your head, then your dog will never get over this. like i said before i understand your angry, and i would be too, but at this point i think you are just making too big of a deal. and i love the "red mark" quotes. i wasnt saying your dog had a red mark, im saying if a dog hangs for only a few seconds they get a red mark that goes away. i said this to tell you that indeed the groomer was careless, and had to have let the dog hang for a long time in order for the mark, or wound if it makes you feel better, to be so bad. i tried to convince you to be more understanding, but i guess you dont want to understand, you just want to be angry.

and we yet again have another example of a dog owner swearing off groomers b/c ONE groomer screwed up. if your auto mechanic screwed up your car, would you refuse to ever use a mechanic again, or would you learn from your mistake of not using a good person for the job, do more research next time, and get a new mechanic? that would be ridiculous, and so is your feeling about never using a groomer again. everyone already told you the groomer screwed up. there is no reason to stop grooming a dog b/c he is hainging. what you do is figure out a way to groom the dog without him hanging, b/c there is always a way. your right, you dont know much about grooming, but you also dont know much about training. if all a dog is doing is misbehaving, then when are we suppossed to give them a treat? the best thing we can do is be patient and groom the dog when it is safe to do so. if a groomer cant figure out a way to groom a dog so that he isnt hanging, then they should go through training again. you need to realize that not all groomers are this inexperianced. but again, you need to understand this a little more so you can get over it. you need to take some responsibility for what happened, learn, and move on. never taking your dog to another groomer will def. make his problem worse. if he was bad for the groomers, then he will probably be bad for you.

also, if you do find a groomer, you better expect a lot of ground rules if you expect to stay and watch, ie not talking to your dog, not touching your dog, no talking to the groomer, no loud noises and kissing sounds, and sometimes, you cant be where the dog can see you.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

I agree with Perplex that at this point, you may be exacerbating the problem by fussing over the little guy. Dogs feed off their owners SO much, and I don't think everyone realizes that. Its like when a dog needs to be shaved because of matting..if everyone in the family acts like its horrible, ugly, poor thing, etc..yes, the dog will act like something is wrong. If you act like its the prettiest cut ever, that same dog will be just happy as can be. They feed off our emotions. What happened to your dog should never have happened. But it did, and you need to move past that, and help the dog move past it too. I agree, the meds are probably having an effect on his energy level too. I personally, don't understand really how he got the red mark. I don't see how a grooming loop ( I HATE the word NOOSE, and really think us groomers need to call it a loop, etc. instead...its a horrible word, and it is NOT a noose) caused that? Maybe he was irritated from the clippers in his throat area, and then scratched/dug at it while waiting to be picked up? I dont' know..but its under his chin? A grooming loop does not go under the chin? Regardless. 

As to never using a groomer again, that is unfortunately what many people do/say after a bad experience. If you went to a bad doctor, would you find a new doctor, or never go again? Vet? Same thing? Pet owners need to do some RESEARCH before dropping off their pets. The grooming industry is COMPLETELY unregulated! There is NO licensing, no required schooling, no nothing. ANYONE can call themselves a groomer if they have a clipper and a blade or two. They can open a salon, hang a sign out front and start taking clients. That is scary! Please, owners, do some research. Ask your neighbors, friends, relatives where they take their dogs, if they are happy, etc. Ask the groomer questions about their job. How long they have been grooming, do they go to continueing education seminars, (these are ALL over the country and IMO there is no excuse why a groomer can't/won't go to at least one a year.)ask to see the facility. Talk to them. If you don't like their answers, then go find another grooming salon. Please don't just call and ask how much and can you do it today.


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