# Fear and agility



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Gah I'm just so frustrated after this week.

A) Summer had a bad week. Just really not into it.

B) Mia had a bad week. Mia's always been a touch of a fearful and skittish dog. This week those issues were very evident. I can see she has the drive. We started stringing jumps today. I'd see her tensing in anticipation for them. And man she would just fly taking the jumps. That said she seems to scare very easily. She'll be rocking one minute and then another will seemingly go backwards. I'm just frustrated with it.

I just feel she flips back and forth from rocking to being totally unable to do almost anything.

She startles a lot compared to Summer. She gets over her threshold a lot faster too.

A car backfired near us while we were doing the dogwalk- her favorite obstacle. She startled and fell off (it was a mini dogwalk so she didn't fall far). Back to square one with that. She refused so we stopped and won't be trying again till next week.

She also shies a lot from the other people and dogs. She's fine standing right next to them but really doesn't want to interact with them. she's also very handler sensitive and she gets upset if I get frustrated so I try to keep it happy happy all the time but I think that might be part of it.

It's just I see this dog at home with so much fire and drive and it rarely comes out on the agility field yet.

I'm going to sign her up for another class (obedience). I hope that putting her in enough different settings will help her some. I don't know why she is fearful, she was socialized as much as possible since I got her.


----------



## Tavi (May 21, 2010)

Aww poor Mia...sometimes I have to admit there are just dogs that are normally more fearful no matter how much socializing you give them. I think you're doing the right thing though, finding her a love in agility and taking her to more classes! Hopefully with each exposure she'll find herself more confident and relaxed! She's just so darn cute maybe she wants to be a run way model instead! She always poses so perfectly for your photos! =)


----------



## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Gah I'm just so frustrated after this week.
> 
> A) Summer had a bad week. Just really not into it.
> 
> ...


 Cherokee has a ton of fear issues and so, compared to most people, we measure our success in agility differently. Our goal has never been to be the best but to help him gain confidence and focus and to build our working relationship. Has he grown by leaps and bounds but some people might look at us and think we are pretty pathetic on some days. I know that our training together has helped him be a magnificent dog outside of the training center. Agility could be the perfect place for you to be if you can look at it as a learning experience and not necessarily using the standards for success that most agility people use. Know what I mean?


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Just stick with it, keep it positive, and getting her out in different class settings sounds like a good plan. 

Anecdotal but hey, Kim had someone walk through the rattly breezeway door at a club when she was first introduced to a teeter. That plus already being hyped up from the trying the teeter thing...let's just say when it was all over, we went three months without being able to work while a teeter was even out on the floor (even across the room) before I could even get her comfortable on a wobble board at home...and another 4-6 months before her teeter performance was full height and confident. With some dogs it takes a while...when they are drivey and "thinking" dogs at the core (as we so know Mia is), it's totally worth that extra time and effort.


----------



## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Laur, it wont do you or Mia any good to get frustrated, I know you know this. She is a baby dog, very few young dogs are consistant and you have to stop comparing her to Summer or with any other dog for that matter. If she is regressing then you have to take her back to the point where she is successful, no matter what the rest of the class is doing. Maybe you are trying to progress to quickly, and you should take a hard look at the methods or expectations being placed on her at this point, often the most talented dogs take the longest to train.
As for the DW, one of the easiest ways to build confidence on it, is to teach them to turn around and come off of it, work within her comfort zone, if she only goes up it a foot and she gets worried look in her eyes, gently turn her around, do your contact criteria and then release her off of it. You'll be surprised at how fast she'll do it again when she knows that she can leave it if she wants too or is worried.

If she gets over threshold, massage and gently pull those lovely ears of hers, by doing that, it releases endorphins and helps her to relax and calm down.
Smile at her and breath deep, think about how you would feel if you lost her the next day and your frustrations will leave in a nano second because you'll just be happy to have her in your life and agility wont seem so important. Take the pressure off her and you and give it time, she'll be fine given enough training, realistic expectations and remember this is suppose to be fun.


----------



## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

LynnI said:


> Laur, it wont do you or Mia any good to get frustrated, I know you know this. She is a baby dog, very few young dogs are consistant and you have to stop comparing her to Summer or with any other dog for that matter. If she is regressing then you have to take her back to the point where she is successful, no matter what the rest of the class is doing. Maybe you are trying to progress to quickly, and you should take a hard look at the methods or expectations being placed on her at this point, often the most talented dogs take the longest to train.
> As for the DW, one of the easiest ways to build confidence on it, is to teach them to turn around and come off of it, work within her comfort zone, if she only goes up it a foot and she gets worried look in her eyes, gently turn her around, do your contact criteria and then release her off of it. You'll be surprised at how fast she'll do it again when she knows that she can leave it if she wants too or is worried.
> 
> If she gets over threshold, massage and gently pull those lovely ears of hers, by doing that, it releases endorphins and helps her to relax and calm down.
> Smile at her and breath deep, think about how you would feel if you lost her the next day and your frustrations will leave in a nano second because you'll just be happy to have her in your life and agility wont seem so important. Take the pressure off her and you and give it time, she'll be fine given enough training, realistic expectations and remember this is suppose to be fun.


How true. I had the opposite of your situation Laur. My first agility dog Rio is very sensitive and when we first started it didn't take much for him to balk at an obstacle. He had a really horrific fly off on the teeter not to far into training. It took me a year to get him to go back on it. Savannah my second dog is fearless. She had a teeter collapse in class and could have cared in the least. Sometimes it is hard to switch modes when you are running two different personally types at different levels in agility. I sometimes forget what Savannah does and doesn't know when I am running her. It will come. Hang in there!


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

LynnI said:


> Laur, it wont do you or Mia any good to get frustrated, I know you know this. She is a baby dog, very few young dogs are consistant and you have to stop comparing her to Summer or with any other dog for that matter. If she is regressing then you have to take her back to the point where she is successful, no matter what the rest of the class is doing. Maybe you are trying to progress to quickly, and you should take a hard look at the methods or expectations being placed on her at this point, often the most talented dogs take the longest to train.
> *As for the DW, one of the easiest ways to build confidence on it, is to teach them to turn around and come off of it, work within her comfort zone, if she only goes up it a foot and she gets worried look in her eyes, gently turn her around, do your contact criteria and then release her off of it. You'll be surprised at how fast she'll do it again when she knows that she can leave it if she wants too or is worried.
> *
> If she gets over threshold, massage and gently pull those lovely ears of hers, by doing that, it releases endorphins and helps her to relax and calm down.
> Smile at her and breath deep, think about how you would feel if you lost her the next day and your frustrations will leave in a nano second because you'll just be happy to have her in your life and agility wont seem so important. Take the pressure off her and you and give it time, she'll be fine given enough training, realistic expectations and remember this is suppose to be fun.


I did this with Tag on the teeter (which he was very skittish about at first). It got to the point where he was happy to make the thing pivot and come down, but I kept up with the on/turn/contact/treat thing for weeks (months even). I would click when the teeter would move and treat him on the way down, then another treat for contacts.
Tag was hesitant about the dog walk, too. I got some of these 









and worked on walking up, over, and down with a contact. He transferred "walk" to a small dog walk we use inside, and by the time summer rolled around was happy to take the full sized DW on a low setting. Taking him back to the point of success was the key, and (especially with the teeter), having him repeat up, turn, down and contact until he WANTED to go farther (reverse psychology on paps is so easy, lol).


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

That sounds pretty much like Nia. She has great drive, was socialized a lot but is still fearful of dogs and overly excitable. I can't seem to get over it either, I still haven't been able to sign her up to any classes because of this. She's not really skiddish of sounds or people but just can't function if there are lots of dogs she doesn't know at close proximity. Counter conditioning has worked some but not enough for her to completely ignore close dogs.

We don't have a lot of training classes around here to begin with and the ones I've phoned said they don't recommend a nervous and fearful dog in a setting where there are lots of dogs in case she sets off someone else's dog with her barking or whatever. At this point I'm not sure if I will ever be able to enter Nia in any kind of obedience/flyball/agility classes.

It's really irritating me because it only takes about 2 min for her to get to know a dog and act friendly but the first 2 min she'll bark, run, sniff, bark more which is not appropriate in a class setting but it can't really be helped that those dogs are close to her.

Nia is very handler sensitive too, if I get frustrated she will either shut down or just walk away from me which is frustrating too. 

Is there perhaps a smaller class you could enter her in so that she's more comfortable?

I think although she has tons of potential, sometimes you just have to take it very slowly and not rush it. I agree that obedience class is a good idea too.


----------



## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> That sounds pretty much like Nia. She has great drive, was socialized a lot but is still fearful of dogs and overly excitable. I can't seem to get over it either, I still haven't been able to sign her up to any classes because of this. She's not really skiddish of sounds or people but just can't function if there are lots of dogs she doesn't know at close proximity. Counter conditioning has worked some but not enough for her to completely ignore close dogs.
> 
> We don't have a lot of training classes around here to begin with and the ones I've phoned said they don't recommend a nervous and fearful dog in a setting where there are lots of dogs in case she sets off someone else's dog with her barking or whatever. At this point I'm not sure if I will ever be able to enter Nia in any kind of obedience/flyball/agility classes.
> 
> ...


This kind of behaviour is a lot more common that many people think. The sad thing is so many people don't go to classes because having such dog in a class setting takes a bit of work but it can be done and work for everyone. Ideally it would be best to have these dogs in a CU class, but so many places don't offer these types of classes.
Recently I had such a case happen in one of my Agility Foundations/Beginner Class. Two friends with littermates joined my class, for the first two weeks everything was going fine, then dog 'A' stopped coming to class because of a unexpected timing conflict for the owner. Dog 'B', at the first class that it's littermate couldn't be there had a complete and total melt down, hyper vigilant, pulling like crazy, lungeing barking/screaming at other dogs and unable to focus. The dog was also starting to behave like this out on walks at home. First thing I did was remove her from the ring, have the owner take her back as far as she needed to get a dog under threshold, and they sat there with the owner massaging and pulling her ears etc.
The rest of the class (3 dogs), continued to work, then I had them leave the ring and not hang out beside the ring and dog 'B' came in. We worked with her off leash and they did fine. 

Over the next few weeks, dog 'B' got closer and closer to the ring while remaining calm and relaxed. All classes they were worked alone in the ring. After 4 wks, they were able to sit quietly in the ring inside an x-pen with the same quiet, relax results. I also suggested the first week that the owner remove the martingale collar and switch to a front clip harness, which also helped a great deal.
One of the reasons I only have small classes is it does allow me to do what is needed for each team for the them to be successful. Everyone is fine with the class not being in the ring at the same time, as long as they are getting their money's worth.

Hopefully you can find an instructor or facility that will work with you on trying to solve this problem, which sadly can't be solved with private lessons.

Good luck!


----------



## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

Libby wasn't like this, but in obedience classes around here if you have a reactive dog they put a little barrier up between the line of sight of the reactive one and the rest of the class. At first it's a solid wall so that the dog can see but not hear, but as the classes progress they make the wall a bit more see-through. It works like a charm. Maybe you could try something like this in classes, if the instructor is willing of course? I'm thinking an ex-pen with a sheet over it?


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Squeeker said:


> Libby wasn't like this, but in obedience classes around here if you have a reactive dog they put a little barrier up between the line of sight of the reactive one and the rest of the class. At first it's a solid wall so that the dog can see but not hear, but as the classes progress they make the wall a bit more see-through. It works like a charm. Maybe you could try something like this in classes, if the instructor is willing of course? I'm thinking an ex-pen with a sheet over it?


Squeeker, you're in Canada right? Do you know any good obedience/agility places in BC? The only place that is close to me uses punishment techniques like choker chains and leash pops and I absolutely refuse to work in an environment like that.

I'm not sure if your strategy will work for Nia because about half the time she's reactive as long as she knows the other dogs are there, for example smell, sound. I'm sure there's lots of things I could try but the problem is finding a place that will work with me!


----------



## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

I'm in Ontario, unfortunately. There MUST be positive places in BC? I believe you, but I am surprised!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Sorry haven't gotten back to you guys on this! My internet has crapped out for almost a week straight now!

I appreciate the responses and I'm going to try to reply tomorrow!

ETA: Michiyo, I do want to add quickly (I'm heading out in just a minute or I'd write up a full response) is that you should definitely try getting Nia in a class. Reactivity is pretty common in the breed and I've seen Summer grow leaps and bounds more confident through agility training in a group setting. I think it's unreasonable for an instructor to expect all dogs to ignore each other/not react at first meeting. In my experience most people in class are MORe than happy to help you and your dog through their issues.



LynnI said:


> Laur, it wont do you or Mia any good to get frustrated, I know you know this. She is a baby dog, very few young dogs are consistant and you have to stop comparing her to Summer or with any other dog for that matter. If she is regressing then you have to take her back to the point where she is successful, no matter what the rest of the class is doing. Maybe you are trying to progress to quickly, and you should take a hard look at the methods or expectations being placed on her at this point, often the most talented dogs take the longest to train.
> As for the DW, one of the easiest ways to build confidence on it, is to teach them to turn around and come off of it, work within her comfort zone, if she only goes up it a foot and she gets worried look in her eyes, gently turn her around, do your contact criteria and then release her off of it. You'll be surprised at how fast she'll do it again when she knows that she can leave it if she wants too or is worried.
> 
> If she gets over threshold, massage and gently pull those lovely ears of hers, by doing that, it releases endorphins and helps her to relax and calm down.
> Smile at her and breath deep, think about how you would feel if you lost her the next day and your frustrations will leave in a nano second because you'll just be happy to have her in your life and agility wont seem so important. Take the pressure off her and you and give it time, she'll be fine given enough training, realistic expectations and remember this is suppose to be fun.


I know it won't help to get frustrated. 

The dogwalk is usually her best obstacle. I'm hoping come wednesday she'll have gotten over whatever made her go 'off' this week. Two weeks ago she was running up and down that at warp speed. 

It's a hard combination... she's a little reactive, independent thinking, and very driven. Not the easiest dog to handle! 

My instructor has been very good and understanding. There's only 3 dogs in class (one is the instructor's puppy). So we're all working on some of the same stuff and some new stuff. The other dog is re-taking this class so he's got 6 more weeks of foundations work than Mia does. 

She starts her obedience class on monday right before Summer's agility class.


----------

