# Food for urine crystals?



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I was talking to an aquaintance today (a relative of a friend.....), and of course our conversation turned to our dogs. She has a Dal that she just loves. The dog has been diagnosed with "crystals in her bladder". The owner doesn't know the exact diagnosis. The vet recommended Hills u/d: "Prescription Diet Canine u/d was developed to aid in the management of dogs with the problems associated with urolithiasis, specifically calcium oxalate, urate and cystine urolithiasis."

She is very low-income (on disability), but does the best she can for her pets. However, she honestly cannot afford the u/d food, which costs about $30.00 for 10 pounds. She buys it when she has the money, and muddles through with whatever decent food she can find when she can't. The dog is currently eating Rachel Ray's Nutrish. Which of course is better than most foods available at Wal-Mart, but is way overpriced (IMO). I told her I'd research into what her alternatives might be. 

She told me that she's willing to feed raw, but I think she might freak out once she finds out that involves feeding chicken bones, because American dog owners have been brainwashed into believing that their dogs will drop dead if they eat chicken bones. I don't think I could convince her otherwise. She would definitely be willing to feed a homecooked diet, and boneless raw. The dog does get table scraps ("because she likes it!"), probably not especially healthy leftovers, either. 

So: If a home prepared diet could be a possibility, it would have to be incredibly easy. She doesn't have a car or a large freezer (and is not in a financial position to buy either), so the ingredients would have to be available locally (Wal-Mart or grocery store), and she would not be able to buy in bulk.

Or, if anyone has any suggestions about a commercial food that would be good for this situation. I go to the "big city" fairly regularly, and I don't have any objection to being a one-woman dog food delivery service. I can get almost any of the really good brands. I already told her to try cranberry capsules.

Any tips?


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## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

This post is very interesting as I just read about Flint River Ranch making low purine foods which are good for certain breeds that are prone to crystals in their urine...specifically Dalmatians!

Have her take a look at this....
The Healthy Dalmatian Diet: Preventing Urinary Stones and Allergies
Urinary stones and infections are common and important health issues for owners of Dalmatians (commonly misspelled as Dalmations) and other genetically-predisposed dog breeds to understand and monitor. Fortunately, keeping your dog healthy requires little in the way of special care. In fact, as long as you follow three important rules of Dalmatian Dog Care, your dog's chances of living a long, healthy, life free of pain and disease are extremely high. 

As many owners and breeders will attest, Dalmatians are wonderfully unique dogs with personalities and appearances unlike those of any other breed. Dalmatians are also unique from all other dog breeds in the way they metabolize "purine-yielding foods," which can unfortunately lead to the formation of urinary and/or kidney stones, especially in male Dalmatians. 

Stones and crystals can form anywhere in the urinary tract of the dog, from the kidney to the urethra to the most common location, the bladder. The stones can cause mild irritation in minor cases, or can partially or even completely block the flow of urine in major cases, making urination painful or in some cases life-threateningly impossible. 

The end result is the need for a specialized diet for Dalmatians that is low in purines – but not necessarily low in protein. A low-purine, high-quality diet can be beneficial both in the prevention and treatment of urinary tract health issues. 


This article primarily focuses on the Dalmatian, but the dietary advice (aside from the issue of purines, which is specific to Dals) and dog health care tips equally apply to other dogs with a hereditary predisposition to urinary tract problems. 


A Healthy Diet Low in Purines


Plenty of Fresh Water


Frequent and Regular Exercise

The Healthy Dalmatian Diet
A high-quality, all natural diet free of artificial additives and chemical preservatives is vital for dogs of all shapes, sizes, and breeds, but it's even more critical for the vitality and overall wellness of your Dalmatian. Thanks to their unique uric acid metabolism and the resulting genetic propensity for urinary stone formation, Dalmatians need a diet rich in high-quality, human-grade protein sources but low in purine content. 

An ideal diet for Dalmatians is one that's low in purines (components of certain foods – primarily found in animal proteins – that metabolize into uric acid in the body), moderate in high-quality proteins (and devoid of substandard protein sources), high in complex carbohydrates (whole grains, fruits, and low-purine vegetables help rid the body of extra uric acid), low in fat (fat holds onto uric acid in the kidneys), low in unnecessary fillers (foods that add little in the way of nutrients and for the most part simply result in larger stools for your dog), and low in salt. 

This ideal dietary balance helps to foster alkaline urine and keeps uric acid in check. If this diet sounds familiar, it's likely because low-purine diets for Dalmatian dogs are similar in nature to those recommended for humans suffering from gout or kidney stones. 





The Misguided Low-Protein Diet Myth
A common mistake made by many Dalmatian owners and breeders has been to link purines and protein together, resulting in the frequently heard but completely inaccurate need for Dalmatians to adhere to a low protein diet. Rather, the key is minimizing high-purine protein sources such as organ meats (kidneys, livers, etc.) and game meats while still ensuring a balanced mix of proteins, carbohydrates, and fat. 



Some Dalmatian diets have suggested as little as 5% meat and 10% vegetables be used, an unfortunate recommendation that all too often can lead to a variety of health issues, including poor coat condition, skin allergies (flaky, itchy skin), lack of energy, fluctuating weight, and continual hunger, as well as numerous nutritional deficiencies such as major deficiencies in Taurine (a vital amino acid derived from high-quality protein sources), essential fatty acids, essential minerals like magnesium and selenium, and valuable vitamins such as vitamin E and B vitamins. 

Even some of the prescription-based dog food diets recommended for stone-forming Dalmatians and other dog breeds are closer to this extreme than a healthier, more balanced diet. For example, Hill's Prescription Diet u/d formula averages only 8% protein (without a major protein source appearing in the first six ingredients of the food!) and Royal Canin URINARY SO averages only 12% protein (with low-quality meat by-products and chicken by-products as the primary protein sources in the food). 

Poor quality and/or high-purine protein sources are frequently found in dog foods that use animal byproducts as a major protein source in their formulas. These byproducts are ground, rendered, and cleaned slaughtered meat carcass parts such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs, bones, heads, and intestines, and in many cases are derived from "4-D" meat sources — defined as food animals that have been rejected for human consumption because they were presented to the meat packing plant as "Dead, Dying, Diseased, or Disabled." 

While you never know exactly what you're getting with animal byproducts, you can certainly expect the quality of the protein to suffer. There's a reason, after all, that animal byproducts are so cheap. Unfortunately, meat and poultry by-products are commonplace in many diets, including many premium and prescription-based diets. As an example, the two primary protein sources in Royal Canin URINARY SO are meat byproducts and chicken byproducts. 




Specific Dalmatian Diets: Prescription vs. Premium
Specific diets often recommended by veterinarians for Dalmatians and other stone-forming dog breeds include Hill's Prescription Diet u/d or k/d or Waltham's Royal Canin URINARY SO diet. Specialized diets formulated for the management of renal insufficiency may also be prescribed. These include IVD Select Care Modified for Chronic Renal Failure (CRF), Purina Canine NF (Kidney Function), and Eukanuba Veterinary Diets' Early Stage Kidney Formula. 

If your vet recommends or prescribes one of these formulas, there are several important issues you should consider before making the switch. First and foremost, give both the ingredients label and the guaranteed analysis listing close inspections, as many of these formulas utilize substandard proteins (meat byproducts, chicken byproducts, animal digest, etc.) or fail to include protein sources of any kind in their first six ingredients. Most of the prescription-based diets also include chemical preservatives, high-purine yeast, added salt, corn and corn products as major ingredients (unnecessary fillers in dog food), and/or potential allergens in the form of soy fiber and corn products. 

Then there are the issues of price and palatability. Some of the formulas can cost upwards of $2 a day to feed a 50 lb. dog, compared to $1 or less for most premium healthy pet food brands. Plus, many dogs do not take well to the diets – not at all surprising given the lack of protein sources in many cases – and need to have gravies (which can be high in purines) or treats added to the foods before they'll eat them. 

In contrast, some of the newer scientifically developed premium health dog foods do meet the ideal diet criteria for Dalmatians while also delivering a highly nutritious, balanced wellness diet that can be helpful in the possible prevention and/or treatment of urinary stones and problems. Flint River Ranch in particular has developed several premium wellness dog food formulas that offer the highest quality human-grade protein and grain sources without using major ingredients high in purines. 

These formulas include the Flint River Ranch Lamb and Rice premium formula, the Flint River Ranch "Fish and Chips" Trout and Sweet Potato Premium Pet Food formula with added fruits, vegetables, and essential fatty acids, and the Flint River Ranch DryWater premium moist pet food formula. 



Here's a sample list of foods low, moderate, and high in purine content. 


"Green Light" Purines. The following foods are considered virtually purine-free and get the "green light" in terms of being used in diets and as treats for dogs predisposed to forming stones: 

Whole grain, yeast-free breads and cereals 
Most vegetables, including potatoes (see exceptions below) 
Fruits (avoid acidic citrus) 
Nuts (including peanut butter) 
Pasta 
Eggs 
Cheese 
Milk 
Butter 

"Yellow Light" Purines. The following foods are considered to contain a moderate level of purines and are acceptable in diets for stone-forming dog breeds. Most or even all of your Dalmatian's protein sources should come from this list as opposed to the "Red Light" purines listed in the next section. 

Most poultry, including chicken and turkey 
Fish and shellfish (see exceptions below) 
Lamb, pork, and beef 
Oats and oatmeal 

"Red Light" Purines. The following foods contain the highest levels of purines and should be avoided as much as possible to help prevent stone formation: 

Organ meats – kidneys, livers, brains, hearts, sweetbreads, etc. 
Game meats such as venison, duck, and goose 
High-purine seafoods – sardines, mackerel, mussels, and scallops 
High-purine vegetables – cauliflower, spinach, peas, mushrooms, and legumes (kidney beans, navy & lima beans, lentils) 
Yeast (including brewer's yeast) 
Gravies 


http://www.aplus-flint-river-ranch.com/flint-river-ranch-trout-and-sweet-potato-p-28.html


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmmm, so it would be difficult to feed a Dal a fully prey-model raw diet anyway, because organ meats are necessary for the vitamins? Interesting. Ugh. Bad breeding has totally messed up Dalmatians. I've never met a stable or healthy Dal (including this one---she's psycho!).

So, if she were to feed a diet consisting of chicken/ground beef mixed with oatmeal, rice, or pasta, what supplements would be necessary? Can anyone point me toward a good website that outlines a good (non-prey-model) homemade diet?

Or, I might look into which commercial foods would work. It sounds like a fish- or lamb-based food with no peas, brewer's yeast, or organ meats listed might work out. I'll start reading labels.

Edit: I remembered that soybeans are high in purines, although they're not on the list. And, of course, Nutrish contains soybean meal AND peas, so I'll tell her to stop feeding her dog that brand right away. I'd set her up with some of my dogs' Chicken Soup, but it has duck (and peas). Hmm. I have a bag of Diamond Naturals in the garage.....it may not be the right one for long-term, but it doesn't have any of the "red light" ingredients, at least.


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## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

Hi again,

I don't know if she can manage to feed Flint River Ranch...but if she can, I can honestly say that the food is very good. It is very palatable and they ship it directly to your door.

They recommend their Lamb formula, or their Trout formula for the low purine diets. Their Drywater formula is way too expensive to feed as a sole diet, so forget about that one.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

She doesn't have a computer or a credit/debit card.....probably not even a checking account. Like I said, very low-income. Now I could MAYBE order it and sell it to her, but that's always a risk. I don't know her very well and I wouldn't want to get stuck with expensive dog food that my dogs might not do well on. I might run the idea by her, but I think it's iffy.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

If she's otherwise happy with the U/D she gets from the vet, it's _slightly_ more economical to buy it by the 30# bag vs the 10# bag. Maybe about $2.50 per pound vs $3 per pound, but a larger initial investment. But it's not like it's a tiny dog that would take forever to go through a 30# bag. They may not have it in stock in that size, and may have to order it special for her.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

To be honest, I would NEVER use a prescription diet for my pets, except _maybe_ for a very short time. Never long-term, definitely never lifetime. I'm not even sure if u/d is considered to be complete and balanced.....with lovely ingredients like this: Brewers Rice, Corn Starch, Pork Fat, Dried Egg Product, Powdered Cellulose, Chicken Liver Flavor, Flaxseed, Soy Fiber, Potassium Citrate, Soybean Oil, Calcium Carbonate, Iodized Salt, Choline Chloride, vitamins (etc.) preserved with BHT and BHA. 

Yep, that's some good eating right there. And only 8% protein. I'm not sure if a carnivore can survive on that for long.

Anyway, I would not be comfortable encouraging her to spend that much on a food that is primarily made of corn starch. Call me crazy. Since they use such cheap ingredients, the least they could do is pass the savings on to the consumers. Plus I have a severe mistrust of the medical community. I wouldn't tell her NOT to buy it, but I can't in good conscience tell her that it's the only/best option, either. 

Besides, it sounds like the dog does not see significant improvement even when she is on the u/d food. And she doesn't like it, forcing the owner to "add stuff" to the dog's bowl. Possibly "stuff" that contributes to the problem. 

She knows it's cheaper per pound if you buy the big bag. Now, personally, I could not force myself to buy the small bag, knowing how much less it would cost in the long run if I bought the big bag (even if I had to save up for a few months). But she is not of this same mentality.....the smaller bag costs less, therefore that's what she buys. And I doubt she ever has $75 in cash at one time.


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## John Lee (Dec 28, 2008)

I was prescribed the Hills C/D Diet for my dog with crystals in her urinary tract (as far as I could understand). The ingredient list for this diet starts as follows: Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat, Chicken-by-product...

First off, this vet is a quack. Straight out. (BTW, I relayed this information to my vet, and basically he tried to play dumb and say he was unaware of this, etc. How professional that he prescribes something for a medical condition that he has no idea of it's ingredient?)

In any case, I digress. This thread interests me because I am new to raw feeding. Currently, my dog eats turkey necks, duck wings, the occasional bison knuckle bone, and today a raw mackerel .

I also supplement with raw dehydrated every other day... and give a tiny scooper (6 oz.) of dry kibble in the morning. (I do this because I feel any holes in my raw feeding can be filled with packaged foods, and possible harmful effects will be minimized by the comparatively less volume.)

But I do want to know, basically what is good to feed and not to in this circumstance (urinary). Reading that fish is bad sucks, cuz she loved the mackerel. Minimizing organ meat is fine cuz she doesn't really like it. But I'd love other's experiences as well.


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## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

Dals are prone to uroliths (stones) of the kind that you describe. Stones and crystals form under certain urinary pH conditions. Calcium oxalate crystals as you're describing (and are the most common types found, next to struvite) form under ACIDIC conditions. Cranberry makes the urine more acidic and could actually make the problem worse. So can table foods. Hoever, there are some table foods that are okay for dogs who are susceptible to oxalate stones and crystals:

plain cooked chicken 
plain cooked turkey 
eggs 
rice 
peas 
pasta 
white potatoes 
cabbage 
cauliflower 
bananas 
melon 

Bones as a food source are probably best avoided as they are high in calcium, which could exacerbate the problem.

As for reduced-protein diets, dogs can do fine on them. Dogs are not OBLIGATE carnivores. They eat meat, but they can survive and thrive without high doses of it so long as their total nutritional needs are met. Cats, on the other hand, are obligate carnivores and MUST have meat because of their taurine requirements.

Indeed, once an animal goes into renal failure, one main thing in treatment is reducing the protein and phosphorus in order to reduce the NITROGENOUS wastes and creatinine buildup in the system. Many homes have multiple pets, some of whom are on kidney diets to treat renal disease. The other pets in the home may eat the same renal diet though they aren't having kidney disease. They do just fine on it.

However, renal diets and urinary diets ARE NOT the same thing! Often, they're totally the opposite. However, the renal diets are well-suited for the oxalate-forming dog. This includes k/d, Purina NF; Royal Canin Renal LP; RC Modified; and Hill's u/d (not a renal diet per se, but designed to help maintain a more neutral pH).

If diet alone doesn't control the oxalate crystal formation, she may need to talk to her vet about potassium citrate. This binds to calcium and helps to prevent crystals and stones, and also raises the pH of the urine to a more alkaline level which makes for a less favorable environment for oxalate crystals to form. Be careful, though, as it's possible to become TOO alkaline and predispose the dog to another crystal: struvite (triple phosphate).

Also, feeding canned or wet foods and encouraging the dog to drink water helps to increase the dog's fluid intake which dilutes the urine and helps make it harder for crystals and stones to form.

Avoid supplements with Vitamins C and D, as these can also contribute to crystal and stone formadtion-- C, because it's acidic, and D becasue it directly influences calcium activity.

I hope that helps.


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## John Lee (Dec 28, 2008)

MitzisMom,
It sounds like you are saying that _oxalate_, and struvite, problems are opposite things. This doesn't seem to make sense, and is something that I was confused about myself all along. My vet explained it in these terms and it wasn't quite clear as to the problem. He did say there was no issue with her kidneys, liver, and bladder. 

He also said that there were likely 'crystals' in her urinary tract, causing the bleeding (she would struggle to pee, and her pees would end with blood dripping.) He prescribed what I think was an antibiotic (pill) which did seem to "cure" the situation in the short term. And now currently, she pees maybe 3-4 times during a walk as opposed to 10 times during a walk. And no more blood, that I've seen.

I'm asking this because some things you say seem in opposition to things I'm doing for her. One... I give Ester-C as an aid to her hip dysplasi0a (I've heard great things about it for this), and she eats plenty of bone (RMB's including turkey neck, chicken wings). So I'm a bit confused.


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## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

Yes, oxalate and struvite are "opposite" in that they require totally different pH conditions in order to form, and are treated in totally different ways.

Oxalate tends to form in acidic urine (typically lower than pH of 6 or 6.5)-- remember that plain water is neutral pH at 7.0. Struvite prefers a more alkaline environment. Struvite is also colloquially called the "infection crystal" since they are often seen when a pet has a urinary tract infection. These crystals form in ALKALINE urine, which is often what you have due to bacteria that raise the urinary pH. If the crystals are actually struvite and NOT oxalate, then the u/d is NOT a recommended diet. The better choice if this is simply struvite would be either c/d or s/d if that one is still being made-- Hill's discontinued several diets recently. 

Do you know if your vet tested her for a UTI? If so, what was the pH-- do you recall? I do know that certain breeds have a tendency to form OXALATE, but if she;s got a UTI, it's possible that she has struvite from the infection.

Certainly, crystals in the urethra or elsewhere in the tract can cause bleeding from irritation. Think about this as if she were peeing glass or sand crystals. This irritation can make your dog feel as if she has to pee, even though she doesn't have urine in the bladder. If you've ever had a bladder or urinary infection, you know that feeling! 

Some infections can be stubborn and take a longer course of antibiotics, or a change of antibiotics to clear them fully. Some dogs NEVER completely clear up, and remain on antibiotic pulse therapy for a long time, or for life-- a few days or a week a month on, then off for the rest of the month, then repeat.

This information might be very helpful to you, and help answer some of your questions, as well as explain some of the things your vet told you-- just in a different way. I know that there's a lot of emphasis on "stones", but stones start off as crystals. I hope this sheds a little more light on the discussion.

Oxalate: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=662&S=0&EVetID=0

Struvite: http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=460

I know it's confusing, but hopefully the links above and our discussion here will help you. 

Good night for now.


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## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

I saw a comment here in a prior poast about taurine deficiency. 



> Some Dalmatian diets have suggested as little as 5% meat and 10% vegetables be used, an unfortunate recommendation that all too often can lead to a variety of health issues, including poor coat condition, skin allergies (flaky, itchy skin), lack of energy, fluctuating weight, and continual hunger, as well as numerous nutritional deficiencies such as major deficiencies in Taurine (a vital amino acid derived from high-quality protein sources), essential fatty acids, essential minerals like magnesium and selenium, and valuable vitamins such as vitamin E and B vitamins.


While it's true that there have been SPORADIC reports of taurine deficiency in some large-breed dogs (which could include Dals)-- these deficiencies have been found mainly in Giant-breed dogs that were older and had other issues going on as well.

Taurine deficiency is more problematic in cats, as cats can't make taurine. Thus, they have to get taurine from outside sources, namely meat. Thus, cats are OBLIGATE carnivores. Because dogs can make taurine, they can eat a more varied diet.

The dogs that are more likely to suffer from taurine deficiency are large-to Giant dogs whose rate of taurine synthesis is lower than that of smaller dogs. Dogs manufacture their own taurine from two other amino acids, cysteine and methionine. Some dogs are less efficient at using these two amino acids to make taurine, and may require more of these two amino acids to make enough. 

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/abstract/136/10/2525



> Low Plasma Taurine Concentration in Newfoundland Dogs is Associated with Low Plasma Methionine and Cyst(e)ine Concentrations and Low Taurine Synthesis1
> ...
> 
> Although taurine is not dietarily essential for dogs, taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) are sporadically reported in large-breed dogs. Taurine status and husbandry were examined in 216 privately owned Newfoundlands, a giant dog breed with high incidence of idiopathic DCM (1.3–2.5%). Plasma taurine concentration was positively correlated (P < 0.01) with plasma cyst(e)ine (r = 0.37) and methionine (r = 0.35) concentrations and was similar across age, sex, neutering status, body weight, and body-condition scores. Plasma taurine concentration was low (40 µmol/L) in 8% of dogs. Dogs with low plasma taurine were older, less active, had more medical problems and treatments, and had lower plasma albumin, cyst(e)ine, tryptophan, and -amino-n-butyric acid concentrations than the other dogs (P < 0.05). Of 9 taurine-deficient, clinically evaluated dogs, 3 had DCM that was reversed by taurine supplementation and 1 had retinal degeneration. When given a diet apparently adequate in sulfur amino acids (5.4 g/kg) for 3 wk, 6 Newfoundlands (52.5 ± 2.3 kg, 3.5–7 y), compared with 6 Beagles (13.2 ± 2.3 kg, 5.5 y), had lower (P < 0.01) concentrations of plasma taurine (49 ± 16 vs. 97 ± 25 µmol/L) and cyst(e)ine and blood glutathione, lower (P < 0.01) de novo taurine synthesis (59 ± 15 vs. 124 ± 27 mg · kg–0.75 · d–1), and greater (P < 0.05) fecal bile acid excretion (1.7 ± 0.2 vs. 1.4 ± 0.2 µmol/g). Newfoundlands would appear to have a higher dietary sulfur amino acid requirement than Beagles, a model breed used in nutrient requirement determinations.


So what good does taurine do? Well, a true taurine deficiency can lead to a heart condition called Dilatative Cardiomyopathy (DCM), a condition where the heart enlarges and the muscle wall becomes thin, like a stretched-out balloon. This happens in cats as well as dogs. In fact, prior to the addition of taurine to cat foods years ago, DCM was far more common in cats (especially Siamese and similar breeds). Once taurine supplementation in cat food was the norm, cases of DCM fell dramatically to where it's now rare. In cats, the more common problem now is HCM, or Hypertrophic Cardiomyopathy-- where the heart muscle thickens and compresses the chambers (especially the left ventricle), thus preventing the heart from filling properly. 

I have first-hand experience with HCM in cats... Mitzi's little cat buddy (Schrodinger the Siamese) has HCM. Fortunately, he's on medicine for it and is doing very, very well. However, HCM-- at least in Schrodie's case-- is caused by genetics, not diet. But I digress...

According to the research, it seems that some dogs simply have a genetic tendency to not be able to synthesize their taurine, or produce the levels that they should. It seems to be breed related, but also somewhat individual. That's to say that while this problem occurs more in large dogs, not all large dogs have this problem.

The TYPE of meat that is fed has a bearing on the available levels of taurine that a dog can make. As I said earlier, dogs make their own taurine from cysteine and methionine. Lamb is lower in cysteine and methionine than other protein sources. So, when you have the combination of a dog that is inefficient at manufacturing taurine and a diet that is made from lamb or other meats that are low in these two amino acids, you may end up with a taurine deficient dog. Beef or bison are both GOOD taurine sources-- in fact, taurine gets its name because it was first identified in beef (Taurus/taurine/toro/ Bos taurus... same root).

So while it is POSSIBLE to have a taurine-deficient dog, it seems to me that it takes a certain combination of conditions for this to occur. Thus, it would stand to reason that a vegetarian or "reduced-protein diet" isn't necessarily going to induce low taurine levels in an otherwise-healthy dog.

Approximate taurine concentrations of various foods-- note that taurine is destroyed by cooking:

beef muscle 10 mg/oz raw; 1.7mg/oz cooked
beef liver 5.5 mg/oz raw 
lamb 13.5 mg/oz raw; 3.6mg/oz cooked (but LOWER in the building-block amino acids than beef)

chicken 9.5mg/oz raw; 2.3mg/oz cooked
fish 36mg/oz raw
shrimp 48mg/oz raw
nutritional yeast 30mg/tablet or 1/2 teaspoon

Hope this helps.


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## John Lee (Dec 28, 2008)

MitzisMom said:


> Do you know if your vet tested her for a UTI? If so, what was the pH-- do you recall? I do know that certain breeds have a tendency to form OXALATE, but if she;s got a UTI, it's possible that she has struvite from the infection.


She did have tests of her urine. Unfortunately, the records are with the vet (who I'm not in contact with any further; I suppose when I do decide I need to have her re-checked/analyzed, I should/could request the records).



MitzisMom said:


> Certainly, crystals in the urethra or elsewhere in the tract can cause bleeding from irritation. Think about this as if she were peeing glass or sand crystals. This irritation can make your dog feel as if she has to pee, even though she doesn't have urine in the bladder. If you've ever had a bladder or urinary infection, you know that feeling!


This quote is pretty precisely what seemed to be occuring. (She would squat to pee ten times during a walk. When on the antibiotic pills, the symptons effectively dissipated. Currently, she'll "squat" to pee maybe 3? times now.) I believe this is the situation that was described to me by the vet.

*The reason I'm prefacing everything with "I believe" is that the vet was hard for me to understand. He wasn't really English speaking. And more than that, he would cite all the words and symptoms you mention above, and it was frankly hard to understand what she had. I'd just occasionally ask "is this what she has" "should I be worried" and other general questions. So while I'm not SURE about what she had, the (above) highlighted seems to describe her condition.

Thanks for your time MitzisMom... it's really helpful.


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