# New Show Puppy - Where to start?



## elrohwen

Last Sunday I brought home my goofy little welsh springer puppy. I wasn't intending to get into conformation and just wanted a dog to try obedience with, but I ended up with quite a nice little guy. The show buyer fell through and my breeder really wanted to keep a girl, so she agreed to let me have him and said he's one of the nicest welsh she's bred in a while. I don't *have* to show him, but I promised her I'd at least give it a shot at some local shows, especially if I'm going to be showing in obedience.

Where do I start? What should I be working on with him right now (10 weeks)? I'm on my way to socializing him (he's already much more socialized than the dogs I had growing up, so I'm trying to keep it up) and general obedience. What should I work on for handling? The dogs I had as a kid were always squirmy when it came to grooming and nails, so I'd like to get him very comfortable with it. How should I go about that? He's a typical wiggly puppy, so I'm not sure what the best method is (most things I read just say to hold them until they're still, but that's easier said than done!). 

Should I be working with him on stacking, or just focus on general obedience for now? Luckily the training facility I'll be using does offer conformation classes, but I want to do what I can while he's still so young and impressionable.

I love reading everyone's show brags and I hope I'll have something to brag about with my Watson some day  Here are a couple pics of the little monster.


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## luv2byte

Might consider an obedience trainer that also has experience with showing as well as competitions.


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## mashlee08

I am getting my first show dog soon, and the most common advice I have gotten is Teach them to stand (stack) before you teach them to sit. Lol my mentor did that with one of her first dogs and it was forever sitting down in the ring.

Conformation classes are good for a young dog as it teaches them to be handled from a young age and to deal with strangers and how to behave when being looked over etc.


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## Niraya

A stand/stack is good not just for exhibition, but also for any pet owner really (i.e. places like the vet where it's useful for them to be standing to be examined). Anyway. something I've learned is teach the stand with bait (food) and teach sit with a toy (bait can be used in the conformation ring so it's better to use food for conformation based training rather than obedience based training).

Conformation classes (contact your local all breed club) are great for teaching/getting a young dog used to the ring and will teach them how to act in the ring with other dogs and will get them used to being handled by strangers and being examined. Your breeder will also be able to help you out a great deal with all of this stuff and answer any questions as well 

Get the puppy used to having his feet touched and messed with (have lots of treats and just get him used to whatever tool you're using to clip and always treat him for a positive reaction to it and having the nails trimmed - the breeder probably [should have] started working with him on this while he was still with her), his muzzle, having his teeth looked at etc. Start practicing stacking!

Congratulations on the puppy! He sure is super cute!!!


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## elrohwen

luv2byte said:


> Might consider an obedience trainer that also has experience with showing as well as competitions.


Yes, as I said, the obedience facility I'm going to be using does offer conformation classes, so I'll be signing up for those. The man who teaches them isn't one of the main trainers, but a successful breeder and handler, so it should be a great class.


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## elrohwen

mashlee08 said:


> I am getting my first show dog soon, and the most common advice I have gotten is Teach them to stand (stack) before you teach them to sit. Lol my mentor did that with one of her first dogs and it was forever sitting down in the ring.
> 
> Conformation classes are good for a young dog as it teaches them to be handled from a young age and to deal with strangers and how to behave when being looked over etc.


Well, after only a few days he already has a fairly automatic sit. Haha. Oops! I don't have it on voice cue yet, but he is starting to sit in situations where he wants something. I'll have to put an equal amount of effort into "stand" so he realizes there are two options. My main goal is to try obedience, so he'll need to learn both anyway.




Niraya said:


> A stand/stack is good not just for exhibition, but also for any pet owner really (i.e. places like the vet where it's useful for them to be standing to be examined). Anyway. something I've learned is teach the stand with bait (food) and teach sit with a toy (bait can be used in the conformation ring so it's better to use food for conformation based training rather than obedience based training).
> 
> Conformation classes (contact your local all breed club) are great for teaching/getting a young dog used to the ring and will teach them how to act in the ring with other dogs and will get them used to being handled by strangers and being examined. Your breeder will also be able to help you out a great deal with all of this stuff and answer any questions as well
> 
> Get the puppy used to having his feet touched and messed with (have lots of treats and just get him used to whatever tool you're using to clip and always treat him for a positive reaction to it and having the nails trimmed - the breeder probably [should have] started working with him on this while he was still with her), his muzzle, having his teeth looked at etc. Start practicing stacking!
> 
> Congratulations on the puppy! He sure is super cute!!!


Thanks! He's pretty good with having his feet and teeth touched, but I want to make sure I keep it up. For some reason the brush makes him nervous, so I'm trying to work that into playtime every day so he gets used to it.

My breeder is 2 1/2 hours away, so close enough to teach me to groom the first couple times, thank goodness.


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## Abbylynn

I just want to say how gorgeous he is!


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## Poly

elrohwen said:


> Yes, as I said, the obedience facility I'm going to be using does offer conformation classes, so I'll be signing up for those. The man who teaches them isn't one of the main trainers, but a successful breeder and handler, so it should be a great class.


That's often the case. The obedience/agility trainers usually concentrate on those, and someone else usually runs the show handling classes. 

You might think about helping at an upcoming show to get yourself familiar with what a show is like. You'll learn a lot more than if you just go to the show as a spectator,. The clubs are ALWAYS looking for more help and there is never enough. The show chairman is always listed in what is called the "premium", which is a small pamphlet announcing the show and containing show info, entry forms, etc. These days the premium is usually on-line. The AKC has a website that lists all the upcoming AKC shows and from there you can link to the premium. Also, your training facility might have printed copies of premiums for nearby shows.

Good luck and have fun showing.


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## elrohwen

Abbylynn said:


> I just want to say how gorgeous he is!


Awww, thank you! He's a little heathen, but very sweet when he wants to be.


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## elrohwen

Poly said:


> You might think about helping at an upcoming show to get yourself familiar with what a show is like. You'll learn a lot more than if you just go to the show as a spectator,. The clubs are ALWAYS looking for more help and there is never enough. The show chairman is always listed in what is called the "premium", which is a small pamphlet announcing the show and containing show info, entry forms, etc. These days the premium is usually on-line. The AKC has a website that lists all the upcoming AKC shows and from there you can link to the premium. Also, your training facility might have printed copies of premiums for nearby shows.
> 
> Good luck and have fun showing.


That's a great idea. There's a show about 5 min from my house every July and I'll be meeting up with my breeder there next year. I wish she could show him for me, but she's older and pays handlers now, so I'll have to learn the handling part myself. Going to the show with my breeder (and meeting other WSS breeders) will be really educational.

I'm north of New York City, so I would guess there a are a lot of shows in this area so I'll have to look for them.


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## Niraya

There are lots of shows in the NY, PA, NJ, RI etc. We are a "competitive" area (for my breed).


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## boxerlover876

One thing you'll hear is to not teach the puppy to sit. That's right. Don't teach a sit. Number one thing is to get him out and socialsed everywhere and get him used to being touched everywhere by everyone. I'd put him in a good puppy class for socialization. Next, I'd go to a confirmation or handling class. Start one ASAP. Puppies learn so quickly when young. Teach him to walk on a lead and leash nicely first too. I don't know what you have to do for coat, but I wouldn't take him to a groomer that's not used to doing show coats on your breed. And one thing I've heard is to not use a harness or wide collar on coated breeds as it messed with the hair growth. I'd put him on a good diet too to get his coat to grow in well and of course just to have him grow up healthy.


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## JohnnyBandit

You need to be stacking him on a table as soon as you can.... But you need someone to show you how to do it in person. Is the breeder close? 

As soon as you get all the puppy shots finished, it would be a good idea to get him in a conformation class.


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## Xeph

> One thing you'll hear is to not teach the puppy to sit. That's right. Don't teach a sit.


Heard this for years, and it's just silly. There's no reason not to teach sit. Stand is a command, just like sit is.

Get him in a conformation class right away, work on stacking and baiting EVERY DAY, just 5 minutes at a time a few times a day. He'll get it in no time. If the pup is going to wear a collar, get a rolled leather collar that will fit, or let him go collarless. NO NYLON!!! NONE!!! It will break coat!

Start brushing your pup every day, and start looking into coat conditioning sprays. There's not much you can do with a puppy coat, but you can get him used to a grooming regimen straight away.

It is very true that you should NOT take your pup to a groomer that is not used to dealing with show coats. The best thing to do is learn how to do all the grooming and upkeep yourself. Not only is it good for you to understand what you're doing, but I've always considered grooming time bonding time.

Learn how to scale teeth, and get into a good groove for how and when you groom. The sooner you make it routine, the better (regardless of whether or not you show).


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## Keechak

boxerlover876 said:


> One thing you'll hear is to not teach the puppy to sit. That's right. Don't teach a sit.


Yep this is the first thing you'll hear from lots of people, and it's also the first thing you can forget. Teaching "sit" is just fine as is teaching "down" fact is dogs are fully capable of learning multiple commands. Both of my conformation dogs have learned sit before their first show.


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## elrohwen

Thank you all for your advice! I'm so glad I found this forum and so many knowledgeable people. My knowledge of showing is limited to reading Josh Dean's book, "Show Dog", and watching them on tv.

I'm glad you mostly agree about the sit thing! I want him for obedience and a pet first, so obviously he'll need to know sit. I'm not willing to have a dog that can't sit. Plenty of dogs can do both, so I'm sure it'll be fine. He just needs to learn to discriminate between cues. I'm still putting sit on cue, but we can work on stand next and get him discriminating early.

Socializing is going well and he's visiting new places almost daily. The breeder did a great job and he loves everyone and is fine being touched anywhere. Just need to keep it up.

I'll definitely be doing the grooming myself - I doubt anyone around here knows what to do with a Welshie and I'd be so upset if someone took clippers to his back or something. My breeder is 2 1/2 hours away, so she can help with the grooming the first few times. I just plan to invest in some thinning shears and things so I can practice with him at home. So far he is suspicious of the brush, which is strange since he's laid back about everything, so I need to work on that every day. Should I be putting him up on a table to work on that? Or just doing it on the floor? Not sure which would be easier.

With my breeder over 2 hours away she can't help with stacking on a regular basis or anything, so I'll need to learn through the handling class. I've seen people train stacking with those blocks - are those recommended? It seems to me that it's something that could be clicker trained, but I'm open to suggestions. Personally, I like the way Sue Ailsby lays it out on her website.

The first puppy class is this Wednesday, so I'll definitely be asking if I can sign up for the next conformation class. The website only lists the one that started on September 19th, so I imagine they're finishing that before scheduling another. 

Should I plan on showing him young? Or waiting for him to mature? I can see the value in taking him to a few shows before he's a year, just to get him used to it, but I don't want to waste a lot of money if he's not going to win anything until he's filled out. I'm trying to finish him as cheaply as possible so I can focus more on other activities  He will most likely be entered in a show 10 min from my house next July, since my breeder will be going. He'll be 11 months then.


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## boxerlover876

Keechak said:


> Yep this is the first thing you'll hear from lots of people, and it's also the first thing you can forget. Teaching "sit" is just fine as is teaching "down" fact is dogs are fully capable of learning multiple commands. Both of my conformation dogs have learned sit before their first show.


And @Xeph

Intersting, I did teach Duke sit before I started thinking about showing him. I'll have to remember that because he certainly doesn't know sit that well anymore.


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## boxerlover876

I think the whole waiting to mature or show now really has to do with your individual dog. If he grows steadily and is competitive at 6 months, show him. If his rear is high (this would be in Boxers, don't know your standard) and is all legs, then let him mature. Your breeder would definitely be able to help with this.


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## elrohwen

boxerlover876 said:


> I think the whole waiting to mature or show now really has to do with your individual dog. If he grows steadily and is competitive at 6 months, show him. If his rear is high (this would be in Boxers, don't know your standard) and is all legs, then let him mature. Your breeder would definitely be able to help with this.


Thanks, we'll have to watch him as he grows. My breeder did say there's a very nice two year old out there now, so I should at least wait until he finishes before bothering. lol I'm not that interested in finishing quickly, so I don't mind waiting until he's competitive. We'll hopefully be doing obedience before 2 years old anyway, so he'll have some show experience even if it's not in the conformation ring.



Another question: Do I practice free stacking or hand stacking first? I'm not sure if dogs even generalize between one and the other. Something to learn at handling class, of course, but I can get started now when we work on the "stand" command.


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## Xeph

> I'll need to learn through the handling class. I've seen people train stacking with those blocks - are those recommended?


I've tried them, before, and I'm really not a fan. You can do the same thing using soup cans if you really want to try it.



> Intersting, I did teach Duke sit before I started thinking about showing him. I'll have to remember that because he certainly doesn't know sit that well anymore.


I cross train my dogs from day one, so it's not an option. I have a bitch that's ready for her CD, and I've just been to wussy to enter her in a trial 



> Another question: Do I practice free stacking or hand stacking first?


Do it all. Alternate. Vixie is hand stacked and works on free stacks every day. Try and do it in front of a mirror if you can, so you can see that foot placement is correct. A dog that posts (this is basically when the dog is leaning back and the legs aren't straight up and down) is unattractive, and ruins the appearance of the shoulder angles.


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## elrohwen

Thank you for taking the time to answer all of my questions, Xeph. Your dogs are beautiful (who doesn't love a GSD?) and I'm lucky to have such knowledgeable people like you to help me. Oh, and I noticed you live in Pittsburgh - I grew up in the North Hills  Maybe I'll see you at a show some day if I'm out there visiting my parents.


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## Xeph

Haha, I'm in New Castle, just 40 minutes or so from Youngstown, OH  I actually don't know the North Hills. My husband and I have been here about a year and a half. I grew up in Green Bay, WI. Keechak and I are actually very good friends. We attended the same kennel club for years.

I miss her very much, and am very glad I got to visit when I went home this summer. She has taken many pictures of my dogs that I adore.

Thank you for the compliment on my dogs! I LOVE showing, and I really really love helping people new to exhibition. 

There's a woman at my home kennel club back in GB that breeds Welshies  They seem to becoming just a bit more popular, which is nice. They are a lovely breed!


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## PatriciafromCO

he's lovely !!! I got so much advice and direction from my breeder I hope she lives close to you. We were stretched for money so I did conformation and OB trials on the same day at the shows. The dogs are really smart to know the difference but I used two collars for training the hard snap collar for OB (lets go to work) and the nice jewel chain for conformaion (be a show dog) just kept the training seperate and often running from one ring to the other switching collars, they never got it wrong... Just have a blast and enjoy working together.


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## mashlee08

Ok stupid question and sorry for the hijack, but the difference between hand stacking and free stacking?? I thought that one led to the other? (I am learning to so this thread is great for me  )


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## Xeph

Hand stacking involves physically putting the dog in position. Free stacking involves asking the dog to do it themselves with no physical interference on the part of the handler.


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## samshine

Welcome to the world of dog shows, hope this is the beginning of a long career in dogs. One of the best things about being in dogs is that there is always more to learn. 

I try to teach the stack before the sit, but if you practice both it should not be a problem. I think the real issue is that people who are doing both obedience and conformation eventually start working on obedience more and neglect staying in practice for conformation. So then their dog will sit during the conformation show. Just practice both and you will be fine. Dogs generally have no trouble switching between conformation and obedience as long as you keep your body language different. That's not hard to do, obedience handling involves very disciplined almost militaristic movement, conformation handling is very fluid. Here's a couple easy tips that will help. When you are teaching your dog to front (obedience command where the dog recalls to you and sits directly in front) you have the treat in both hands right up to your stomach and centered. When baiting for conformation the treat will be in one hand and keep it off to the side a bit. Doesn't have to be far, just a few inches from center is fine.

I never had much problem with a dog sitting during conformation, and kept wondering why other people did. Then I realized I had been doing something unconsciously that made a huge difference. The most commonly used hand signal for a dog to sit is to bring the hand up with the palm flat and facing up. My first obedience teacher believed that you might as well start using the motion that will eventually be your hand signal from the very first time you lure the sit. So I always had the treat held in my hand with the palm up when teaching a sit. When you hold a treat in conformation, you naturally hold it with the palm facing down. That can be a HUGE cue for the dog. Palm up, sit, palm down, stand. ;-)

Try to do as many handling classes and matches (practice shows) as you can. Match fliers will generally be available at the place where you take handling class. I would also recommend doing at least several shows while your pup is 6-12 months old. Welsh Springers can be sensitive so you want to make sure they get that socialization and learn that shows are a comfortable place to be. After that, an experienced handler will often take a break until the dog is competitive and ready to win. But for a novice, you would likely need the additional practice. If you quit showing until ready to win, YOU won't be ready to win and will be holding your dog back. It really depends on the dog, handler, and the level of competition. 

I doggedly showed my first dog at every local show with only infrequent wins for three years (slow maturing dog.) If I had had a super competitive personality, that would have been discouraging. It helped that the Samoyed community around here was very friendly and supportive so I always had a good time at the shows, win or lose. By sticking it out, by the time he got his big boy coat and was ready to win I was a pretty good handler and we finished quickly after that. If you do find yourself getting discouraged then take a break.

You may be surprised at how much of a social event dog showing can be. Be open to making new friends and enjoy yourself. Good luck, hope you do great in both rings!


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## elrohwen

Xeph, I've never been up to New Castle - how do you like it there? I'm really glad I stumbled on to Welshies - they seem like the perfect breed for me. I love the gun dog group in general, but didn't want a dog with a ton of hair (like cockers or ESS) or a ton of drive to hunt, so they are a nice compromise.

Patricia, that's a great idea to have separate collars and leads for one vs the other. I'll definitely be entering conformation and obedience on the same day, so I'll need to keep up with both so he's ready to go. 

samshine, thanks for so much information! That was all really really useful. I'm already using the palm up as a sit cue, so I'll use palm down for stand. Lots of things to think about there.


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## PatriciafromCO

elrohwen, wish you the best ,, when you register for the shows it helps to call in the registration, that way they can try to place you in the ob ring time wise that doesn't conflict with your conformation ring. May not be an issue for your breed. For GSD's always showing first to early in the day some shows were a tight squeeze between rings but it worked for them setting it up so we had a chance to make it.


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## Poly

Xeph said:


> Heard this for years, and it's just silly. There's no reason not to teach sit. Stand is a command, just like sit is.
> 
> Get him in a conformation class right away, work on stacking and baiting EVERY DAY, just 5 minutes at a time a few times a day. He'll get it in no time. If the pup is going to wear a collar, get a rolled leather collar that will fit, or let him go collarless. NO NYLON!!! NONE!!! It will break coat!
> 
> Start brushing your pup every day, and start looking into coat conditioning sprays. There's not much you can do with a puppy coat, but you can get him used to a grooming regimen straight away.
> 
> It is very true that you should NOT take your pup to a groomer that is not used to dealing with show coats. The best thing to do is learn how to do all the grooming and upkeep yourself. Not only is it good for you to understand what you're doing, but I've always considered grooming time bonding time.
> 
> Learn how to scale teeth, and get into a good groove for how and when you groom. The sooner you make it routine, the better (regardless of whether or not you show).


+1

To the OP: Not teaching a conformation dog to sit is very "old-school" advice. We know better now. It's true that you usually won't learn a sit in your show handling classes (no need for it), but that doesn't mean you can't teach it;.




samshine said:


> I never had much problem with a dog sitting during conformation, and kept wondering why other people did. Then I realized I had been doing something unconsciously that made a huge difference. The most commonly used hand signal for a dog to sit is to bring the hand up with the palm flat and facing up. My first obedience teacher believed that you might as well start using the motion that will eventually be your hand signal from the very first time you lure the sit. So I always had the treat held in my hand with the palm up when teaching a sit. When you hold a treat in conformation, you naturally hold it with the palm facing down. That can be a HUGE cue for the dog. Palm up, sit, palm down, stand. ;-)


Props to your obedience trainer. He/she must have been a excellent teacher to be looking so far ahead and teaching for both types of events. Signals aren't _required_ in Obedience until you get to Utility, but starting them early is a superior approach. 

I'm sure you know this, but for someone else who may be just starting out in Obedience, review the rules so you know when you can use a verbal and/or a signal. when you can use one or the other but not both, and when you can't use either one.


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## mashlee08

Xeph said:


> Hand stacking involves physically putting the dog in position. Free stacking involves asking the dog to do it themselves with no physical interference on the part of the handler.


That's what I thought, ah confusion. Wouldn't you need them to learn the handstack before free stack? Otherwise how do you teach them at the same time lol.


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## elrohwen

mashlee08 said:


> That's what I thought, ah confusion. Wouldn't you need them to learn the handstack before free stack? Otherwise how do you teach them at the same time lol.


Check out this article by Sue Ailsby: http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page40/

She does explain hand stacking first, but once you read her training method it seems (to me at least) that the dog won't necessarily generalize because the training isn't linked. Just because he can let you move his feet around doesn't mean he will put them in the right spot on his own.


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## mashlee08

elrohwen said:


> Check out this article by Sue Ailsby: http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page40/
> 
> She does explain hand stacking first, but once you read her training method it seems (to me at least) that the dog won't necessarily generalize because the training isn't linked. Just because he can let you move his feet around doesn't mean he will put them in the right spot on his own.


Thanks, when you put it that way, it makes a lot of sense!


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## elrohwen

mashlee08 said:


> Thanks, when you put it that way, it makes a lot of sense!


Obviously, I'm not an expert though! Hopefully someone else will come along and agree or disagree. The dog might get some idea of proper foot placement by learning hand stacking first.


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## mashlee08

elrohwen said:


> Obviously, I'm not an expert though! Hopefully someone else will come along and agree or disagree. The dog might get some idea of proper foot placement by learning hand stacking first.


That's what I always thought, but in saying that I haven't really started looking much into it until now. I knew what free/hand stacking was, just not how to teach it. Puppy not even in utero yet so learning while I can!


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## elrohwen

mashlee08 said:


> That's what I always thought, but in saying that I haven't really started looking much into it until now. Puppy not even in utero yet so learning while I can!


Exciting! Are you getting another Tervuren or something else?


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## mashlee08

elrohwen said:


> Exciting! Are you getting another Tervuren or something else?


Another Terv for sure  I just want the puppy to come nooooow! But I won't be saying that when its here. I didn't want a show dog this early in the breed for me, but I couldn't pass up on the litter planned. Sire has passed away and is Nld Ch(imported semen) and Dam is Aus Ch, imported from Norway. Both amazing lines that you don't see in Australia so I leapt at the chance.


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## elrohwen

mashlee08 said:


> Another Terv for sure  I just want the puppy to come nooooow! But I won't be saying that when its here. I didn't want a show dog this early in the breed for me, but I couldn't pass up on the litter planned. Sire has passed away and is Nld Ch(imported semen) and Dam is Aus Ch, imported from Norway. Both amazing lines that you don't see in Australia so I leapt at the chance.


I've never met one in person, but they seem like cool dogs and they're very pretty. Are they popular in Australia?

I didn't want a show dog at all (other than obedience at a low level) but I think it will be a fun thing for us to do together as he gets older. Luckily, Welshie are rare and the show ring isn't super competitive compared to, say, GSDs. I think there are a lot of owners who do their own handling and only have one dog.


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## samshine

elrohwen said:


> Obviously, I'm not an expert though! Hopefully someone else will come along and agree or disagree. The dog might get some idea of proper foot placement by learning hand stacking first.


I think that hand stacking and free stacking are two completely different exercises in the dog's mind. After all, they are not very good at generalization. 

When it comes to hand stacking, I find it easier to concentrate on getting the basic concept of a stand-stay before I start placing feet. I mean, it does not hurt to practice moving legs around but certainly do not expect the puppy to leave it where you put it until they understand stand-stay. I've seen people get frustrated placing a foot, puppy moves it out of place, they put it back, puppy moves it again, and on and on and on. (wait, that was me!) It's not a good road to go down. So I start out by teaching the puppy a stand stay, using the same basic philosophy as in obedience. (get puppy standing, give a command "stay" and always use a release word, and always release before the puppy breaks) Once they have the idea of not moving their feet for a few seconds, then start placing them properly.

When I first start with the stand stay, I kneel by the puppy's right side, right hand either holding a treat in front of the puppy's nose or holding the puppy's collar with no treat in the hand. If the pup needs help standing, lure him forward with a treat and then slip your left hand under their flank. Don't lift or hold in position, it's more of a feather touch down there that reminds the puppy not to sit. As soon as the pup is still for a second (or just not moving their feet) reward and release. Then add in the command and release word, and start gradually adding more time.


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## Xeph

I'm the person that places a foot, puppy moves it, I place it back. However, I do not get angry. I'm very quiet and matter of fact about it. For me it's not just about the puppy staying in place, but learning to accept physical manipulation regardless of whether or not they want to.

That is not to say that Samshine is wrong (certainly not), it's just a different training method.


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## samshine

But if the puppy keeps doing it wrong, what are they learning?


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## PatriciafromCO

I start off with hand stacking usually minor adjustments for the half step on GSD's, but I thought all stacks per individual breed were natural positions for that breed structure??? am I wrong on that? I've only shown GSD's and I have never gotten into the extreme stacks, I just let the dogs walk into their stack since it was a natural movement anyway it was easy for them to learn. 

samshine, all things are a work in progress, my first approach for any event is a happy worker willing learner (happy to be here lets do this), I've gone to the ob ring and so many dogs hanging their head down watching them is painful how much they don't want to be there performing. Many dogs taking every attempt to run out of the show ring every time they get near the opening. They all get the correct position with practice, but that happiness about being there and doing with you, why crush it and be to criticle when they are learning.


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## Xeph

samshine said:


> But if the puppy keeps doing it wrong, what are they learning?


They are learning to keep the foot where I put it, lol


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## boxerlover876

I carried hand stacking over to free stacking. I was taught to stack, give the command stand, then treat. Then you added a stay and increased stay time. When it came to free stacking he knew the word stand already and the hand movements of luring/baiting. He learned it in under a week. If you tell him to sand now he will fix around his feet if he knows he's wrong also. You just have to look at it or motion towards it if he doesn't move it fast enough for me. He definitely made the connection to me.


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## Xeph

Wesson (now a year old) learning to free stack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zewlGKXwsC0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMQrJRiJg7U&feature=relmfu


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## samshine

PatriciafromCO said:


> samshine, all things are a work in progress, my first approach for any event is a happy worker willing learner (happy to be here lets do this), I've gone to the ob ring and so many dogs hanging their head down watching them is painful how much they don't want to be there performing. Many dogs taking every attempt to run out of the show ring every time they get near the opening. They all get the correct position with practice, but that happiness about being there and doing with you, why crush it and be to criticle when they are learning.


You would be hard pressed to find happier workers than my dogs, in either obedience or conformation. People often comment about how animated (happy) my dogs are in the ring. By teaching stay before positioning their feet, I get to reward good behavior immediately. Much easier to reward a puppy for one second of not moving their feet, than to try and some how get the proper position before rewarding. Your chance of being able to reward the puppy because it keeps the foot where you put it goes up if they have some concept of stay first. 

It's all about setting the puppies up for immediate success. I can use a lot of rewards and the puppy learns very very quickly. I never use corrections, and you have to keep the stays very short for the young dogs. And never do it so much that they get bored. Always quit while they are still enthusiastic.

Come to think of it, teaching stay before positioning the dog is actually backchaining, which is a very useful way to teach many behaviors.


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## Xeph

Which is a perfectly fine way to teach it  No complaints there. I've just been plenty successful with how I do it as well (which is not devoid of rewards).

Vixie has only been with us a week, and she's already doing a stand on cue and baiting (and she was not worked with before I got her).


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