# punishing growl



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Interesting blog. If you read it thaughts?


Punishing Out Warning Signals: Reality or Myth?
March 24, 2013 in animal behavior, dog training by Ruth Crisler | 35 comments
If a dog is punished for growling, he will learn to suppress such warnings and go straight for a bite.

Or so I’ve been told innumerable times, most recently in a promotional blurb distributed by Whole Dog Journal. The advertisement was for a new Ebook (just $7.95) that among other things, promises to explain

How punishing a growl will lead to biting without warning

Every trainer is familiar with this caveat. It’s promoted by experts, recited like gospel, and has become a staple argument against the use of positive punishment in dog training.

But where did it come from, and what proof exists to back it up?

The Prevailing Wisdom
An online search yields no shortage of confident exhortations, but few clues as to the origin of this claim. Here is a sampling (emphases mine):

Never Punish a Growling Dog. Many dog owners get understandably upset when a dog growls. Their first reaction is often to suppress the growling by scolding or punishing the dog. This is never a good idea. By teaching your dog that growling is not an acceptable behavior, you are taking away his ability to warn you that he may bite. Often we hear stories of dogs who bite with no warning. In many cases, this is because the owners trained the dog not to give a warning growl first. –About.com

Never punish your dog for growling. This may seem counter-intuitive and may even go against the advice of your dog trainer or dog trainers you have seen on TV. If your dog growls at your child he is sending a clear warning that he is very uncomfortable with the actions or proximity of the child. Be grateful that your dog chose to warn with a growl rather than going straight to a bite. If you punish the growling, you may inhibit the warning growl the next time and the dog may bite without growling first. Punishment or scolding will not make the dog feel better about the child, in fact he may even feel more anxious and be even more likely to bite in the future, especially if you are not there to control the situation. Dog trainer Yamei Ross says, “Punishing a dog for growling is like taking the batteries out of your smoke detector. You don’t want to hear the noise, but the danger is still there.” –doggonesafe.com

Indeed, by punishing a growling dog, owners are not only depriving a dog from a very important warning tool, but are also proving to the dog that the owner is unreliable and unpredictable, significantly increasing the level of stress in the dog. More stress does not solve the problem, and next time the dog encounters the same situation he may appear to be OK with the situation when he is not. Eventually, a bite will come and this time there will be no advance warning. It will come straight and mean to the owner’s eyes –Ask A Behaviorist

Surveying the above, one might assume science had demonstrated this conclusively. After all, how else would such an oddly specific idea have become the prevailing wisdom?

More to the point: Why, in fifteen years of training dogs professionally, have I never seen this happen?

Maybe I’m an outlier, but regardless, something doesn’t add up. Right or wrong, dogs are punished for growling routinely. I’ve done it myself. Dogs do it to each other. And pet owners do it a lot. If the typical result of such temerity were in fact a dog that bit without warning, then why is the world not overrun with such dogs?

I began asking around among seasoned trainers and behavior consultants. Where did this pearl come from, and did they think it fake or genuine?

Responses ran the gamut, but the mean seemed to lie somewhere between moderate skepticism and luke warm endorsement. Some admitted to sharing my disbelief; some defended the claim’s veracity; and several offered up competing interpretations of how aggression sometimes escalates in situations where punishment has been applied.

Among the theory’s higher profile advocates is Pamela Dennison, who not only boasts first hand experience with such a dog, but actually took the trouble to write a book about him. That dog is Shadow, an adopted human-aggressive border collie and the subject of Bringing Light To Shadow: A Dog Trainer’s Diary, published in 2005.

Here is the most salient excerpt, highlighted at the start of chapter 5:

A growl is just a warning–nothing more. It is obvious to me that Shadow had been punished for growling by his previous owner. It is important not to punish the growl out of a dog because if you do, you end up with a flash biter–a dog that bites with no warning. A growling dog doesn’t want to bite–that’s why he is growling. Punishing the growl out of the dog is like telling a police officer that he doesn’t have to say “Stop or I’ll shoot.” A growl is a wake-up call to YOU, to show you that you need to work on desensitizing your dog to whatever it is that he growled at. The important part is not to take it personally, a “How dare you growl at me!” kind of attitude.

I have to wonder what made it so obvious to Dennison that Shadow had been punished for growling, or that this specifically had generated his flash biting, apart from her understanding that such a history could explain the behavior she was witnessing. To my mind, it seems the cause of Shadow’s biting was largely inferred from the same theory his case is enlisted to support.

Many of the examples raised in defense of the theory shared this cyclical format. Relatively few included both a before and after component. Those that did mainly showed only a loose correlation between the punishment and biting, and hardly any were clearly distinguishable from cases involving more straightforward escalation from growl to bite.

As for a scientific basis, no one pointed to any beyond suggesting the claim had been extrapolated from scientific principles, probably by Ian Dunbar.

I dug a bit further and found more references to Dunbar, so I contacted him.

Dunbar’s Hypothesis
He recalled introducing the idea in the late 80′s or early 90′s, and forwarded me a number of his articles from that period. I found the below (emphasis mine) within “Provocative Behavior,” based on a behavior column from the June 1989 issue of the AKC Gazette.

The ‘Solution’ Becomes The Problem

Limiting treatment to punishing the dog for growling generally makes matters worse. The dog is growling because it feels uptight in specific situations, for example, when approached by a stranger. If the dog is punished, it now has two reasons to be uptight: 1. the initial reason – lack of confidence, and 2. the prospect of correction, or punishment, by the owner/handler, which further destroys the dog’s confidence.

In many cases, punishment may cause the growling to increase in frequency – a paradox of learning. A vicious circle develops, whereby the more the dog is punished, the more it has reason to growl and hence, the more it is punished etc. The ‘attack’ by the handler (the dog’s only immediate ally) tends to make the dog especially nervous and ‘spooky’. It must be extremely unsettling for the dog to have its best friend suddenly turn against him in times of need. At first the dog can establish neither rhyme nor reason for the handler’s outbursts. Soon, however, the dog learns, the handler’s uneasiness is contingent upon the specific situation, e.g., approach by a stranger. As such, the stranger’s approach now becomes a cue, which forwarns the dog, its owner is about to get upset and punish the dog. Most dogs do not like it when their owners become anxious, apprehensive, or agitated and so, the dog now has a third reason to growl – to keep the stranger at bay, in order to prevent the owner from becomming uneasy.

[...]

For cases wherein punishment successfully inhibits growling. This is disasterous. Firstly, punishment must be extremely severe to stop a worried dog from growling. Extreme punishments in stressful situations are inhumane. Secondly, although the dog still feels uptight, it no longer gives warning. The dog still does not like strangers and it wants to growl, but dare not. This is akin to a smoke alarm with no batteries, or a time-bomb that does not tick. The dog’s temperament is still extremely unstable but on the surface, all appears to be well.

Whether one agrees or disagrees with the above, it’s worth noting that Dunbar’s original hypothesis is more nuanced than many subsequent iterations, including those listed at the start of this post. Dunbar draws a clean line between punishing a dog for growling and punishing the growl itself (in the operant conditioning sense), suggesting the average effort to deter growling via punishment will not be successful at suppressing the behavior over time.

Pat Miller, editor of Whole Dog Journal, is also careful to maintain this distinction, as in the introductory Ebook blurb as well as the below from a frequently cited 2005 article.

Worst of all, and most significantly, if you succeed in suppressing the warning signs, you end up with a dog who bites without warning. He has learned that it’s not safe to warn, so he doesn’t. –Pat Miller, “Understanding Why Your Dog Growls: Why you should never punish a dog for growling”, 2005 WDJ

Yet the prospect of generating a stealth biter is continually promoted as a substantive risk, despite its depending on an unlikely coincidence of technical aptitude and poor judgement, whereby the punishment is skillfully applied but the overall strategy is woefully incompetent.

I put my doubts directly to Dunbar, who offered the following (emphasis mine):

Does punishing a dog for growling create a dog that bites without warning? Well, we are talking about two things here:

1. Inhibiting the dog’s growling 2. Provoking the dog to bite

Non-verbal and especially, aversive feedback often cause a bunch of additional problems. However, by its very definition, aversive punishment would absolutely inhibit the dog’s growling; if the frequency of growling is not reduced, then the aversive stimulus cannot be classified as a punishment! The most commonly used definition of punishment is “a stimulus that causes the immediately preceding behavior to decrease in frequency and be less likely to occur in the future.” And so, if the aversive stimulus were used effectively as a punishment, the dog would be less likely to growl and IF the underlying cause for the dog’s unease has not been resolved, the dog would be just as likely to bite, i.e., the dog may bite without warning (growling beforehand). Furthermore, should the dog associate the aversive punishment with a person, the dog may be more likely to bite without growling beforehand. (This may happen when a dog associates the punishment with the punisher, or when a dog is aversively punished in the presence of children for example.)

According to Dunbar, punishing a dog for growling may result in a bite without warning under certain conditions. Those would seem to include the punishment being relatively harsh, the punishment being highly successful, and the absence of productive work (such as a program of desensitization and counterconditioning) toward building confidence, tolerance, or positive associations.

This might explain why I’ve never experienced the phenomenon first hand, despite punishing dogs for growling myself a fair number of times. I can’t imagine using punishment as an isolated strategy, without training alternate behaviors or conditioning a better emotional response to triggers.

But I suspect the more fundamental reason I’ve not witnessed a dog’s warning signals being punished out, is that this is not how aggression mainly works.

Lost in Translation
Before looking at how aggression does escalate, let me briefly address the denial of growling as aggression. I’ve noticed a trend toward framing the growl as a highly desirable behavior, to the point of assigning it a near sacred status. Within this paradigm, the growl is acknowledged as an essentially peaceful alternative to an actual bite, and as such must be left unmolested (if not honored with rounds of applause).

Personally, I take issue with the notion that all growling should be interpreted as an excruciatingly polite request made under duress (as in the excerpt below).

A bite is at the far end of a long line of behaviors a dog uses to communicate displeasure or discomfort. To stop another dog, human, or other animal from doing what he perceives to be an inappropriate or threatening behavior, the dog often starts with body tension, hard eye contact, a freeze, pulling forward of the commissure (corners of the lips). These “please stop!” behaviors may escalate to include a growl, snarl (showing teeth), offensive barking, an air-snap (not making contact), and finally, an actual bite. The dog who does any or all of these things is saying, “Please don’t make me hurt you!” -Pat Miller, ”Teaching Bite Inhibition”, June 2010 WDJ

Undoubtedly, many dogs are pleading to avoid conflict with their growl. But I suspect others are saying something closer to “Bitch, don’t even think about taking my bone!” Bottom line, there’s a difference between the headspace of a dog that growls at his owner for attempting to move him off the couch, and one that growls at his owner out of fear of a beating.

Why does that matter? Because much of the weight of Dunbar’s theory seems to rest on one’s acceptance of the internal narrative assigned the growling dog. Give the hero a different script, and the ending no longer makes sense. Is the dog that growls and lunges at every dog he sees while pulling his owner down the street in fact repeatedly imploring, “Please stop, don’t make me hurt you,” or shouting “Get off my block or I’ll go medieval on your ass!”? I can’t answer that question and neither can Dunbar. But I can recognize one dog’s communication as potentially distinct from another’s, even if they both happen to include what we humans indiscriminately call growling. And I would argue that while a growl can be a laudable expression of restraint, it can also be something very different, something more genuinely offensive.

Shutting Off the Tap
In batting around these questions with trainers who work aggression cases regularly and hands on, some common themes emerged.

First, the implication that aggressive behaviors exist within discreet modules, such that one may be extracted while the rest remain functionally intact, doesn’t sit well. These behaviors are part of a natural sequence involving rising arousal levels. They may be let to proceed, may be accelerated, or may suffer interruption, but they cannot easily be rearranged or reassembled with parts missing.

As trainer Michael Shikashio, CDBC, describes the progression from growl to bite,

My thought is that it is more of a fluid escalation, one where you can “shut the water off” before it spills over the top of the glass.

I think most trainers would agree with this characterization, and in fact acknowledge that interrupting the “flow” with a well-timed punisher has the real potential to halt aggression in its tracks. In such cases, the punishment may be very mild, yet succeed at suppressing the arousal. Another trainer referred to this as response blocking.

Whatever one calls it, it’s a phenomenon with which trainers specializing in aggression are universally familiar. Yet the prevailing wisdom suggests a world in which it’s not even a remote possibility. In this world, punishment either doesn’t work at all (and possibly adds fuel to the fire), or it acts like a perfect surgical strike, annihilating individual behaviors with laser precision while leaving the rest of the picture untouched (and opening the door to biting without warning). And of course, the implication is that one can’t reliably predict which outcome will occur.

Meanwhile, the real capacity to suppress aggression via positive punishment without disastrous fallout is rarely acknowledged in public discussions.

Why is this?

Because a threat that is both profound and unavoidable, striking often and at random, is a powerful deterrent. And that’s ultimately the point, in my estimation, far ahead of enlightening anyone about anything.

An honest discussion of punishing aggression would reflect actual knowledge and actual probabilities. The prevailing wisdom regarding punishing warning signals, based on untested hypothesis and promoted by rumor, reflects neither.

Am I saying that punishing dogs for growling is typically a good idea? Not by a long shot. I may never have witnessed this strategy result in a stealth biter, but I’ve seen plenty of other unpleasantness.

Am I saying it’s impossible to generate such a dog via this formula? Again, no. But research and experience both suggest it is the least probable or even relevant consequence of punishing for posturing, growling, etc. Far more likely to get an immediate escalation of the conflict, a redirection of aggression toward the handler, or an interruption of events accompanied by a suppression of arousal. The fact that all of the above might also happen to include less growling is almost beside the point.

In Conclusion
The claim that punishing a dog for growling may cause him to bite without warning is made so frequently, and with such authority, that it should hold up to a little scrutiny, in my opinion. Yet a casual inspection reveals little foundation and lots of loose ends.

At minimum, it’s an exaggeration of how typical this phenomenon is, and an overstatement of our understanding of how aggression works. At worst, it’s a questionable idea whose main attraction is its utility as a scare tactic.

Aggression is complex, both as a suite of behaviors and as a problem to solve. If it weren’t, every trainer with a basic understanding of theory would be prepared to deal with it swiftly. Meanwhile, our understanding of it, both as individuals and as a profession, is neither crisp nor uniform. It is dynamic and evolving, hopefully in the direction of reality and away from myth.

My thanks to the many accomplished trainers who shared their opinions with me on this topic, and to Dr. Dunbar in particular for responding to my questions.

© Ruth Crisler and Spot Check, 2013.

http://ruthcrisler.wordpress.com/2013/03/24/punishing-out-warning-signals-reality-or-myth/


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

This is interesting and a lot to chew on.

Still, I think that *not* punishing growling is a far safer stance to take than trying to always figure out whether it is a punishable growl or not. Either way, you still need to try to figure out what's motivating the growling and work on that, but I think it's far too easy to default to punishing and the risks of causing problems are too high.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Dunbar is an authority on dog aggression, but I don't know if he ever did research on punishing the growl. Frequently he will make a generalization as an attempt to keep the average layman safe. I also don't know what conversation occurred for this blog, or what Dunbar was thinking. [BTW, he has been quoted as saying that CM's methods, "Are a little different."  ]

On final note, we all know dogs and circumstances that are clear exceptions to the "No growl" rule - a puppy, a playful dog, a non-aggressive pet that is complaining about a necessary evil (looking in his ears, clipping nails, etc.) with no intention of biting. If your dog growled at me, I would back off... but you might just tell him to hush ... with no repercussions. But, the layman shouldn't do that with just any dog...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Far more likely to get an immediate escalation of the conflict, a redirection of aggression toward the handler, or an interruption of events accompanied by a suppression of arousal.


I think that "if you punish a growl you'll end up with a dog that bites without growling first" is perhaps a bit simplistic, but saying "if you punish a growl you might end up with an immediate escalation of the conflict or a redirection of aggression toward the handler" is maybe going to confuse the average dog owner. So just say "don't do it" without even a simplistic explanation?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Plus, why would I want to punish a growl, anyway? The growl is just communication, it's not really a problem in and of itself IMO. Punishing it accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I want to know WHY my dog is growling so I can fix THAT problem.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hanksimon said:


> Dunbar is an authority on dog aggression, but I don't know if he ever did research on punishing the growl. Frequently he will make a generalization as an attempt to keep the average layman safe. I also don't know what conversation occurred for this blog, or what Dunbar was thinking. [BTW, he has been quoted as saying that CM's methods, "Are a little different."  ]
> 
> On final note, we all know dogs and circumstances that are clear exceptions to the "No growl" rule - a puppy, a playful dog, a non-aggressive pet that is complaining about a necessary evil (looking in his ears, clipping nails, etc.) with no intention of biting. *If your dog growled at me, I would back off... but you might just tell him to hush ... with no repercussions. But, the layman shouldn't do that with just any dog...*


I think that last bit is where my brain was wandering. With a dog I know well and can "read," like my own dog, I may react differently depending on what is going on than I would with a dog I don't know as well. If I'm giving someone else advice, I tend to opt for the safest option since I don't know their dog. Some dogs are "grumbly" and growling is just another way of them complaining about something. Other dogs reserve it for a serious warning. For some, it is a way of being snarky and talking back. Still others do it for any mixture of the reasons above. If I know a dog well, I know the difference, but someone else's dog? I always assume it's serious and a warning.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Thank you for sharing that jiml. Ruth is very good and thinks things out quite well. I don't agree with her 100% of the time, but I would say her insights are definitely 100% worth notice and consideration. 

I personally have only dealt with one serious growling dog. All three of the dogs have growled for one reason or another, but only one was warning of impending violence...the others, really, bluffing or just expressing discomfort (or so I've understood from body language etc. and knowing each dog). Diesel has growled as a straight forward serious warning of escalating to use teeth as a warning, which normally resulted in him fairly gently grabbing a hand and trying to stop whatever was happening. On the other hand, the time he did bite for real, the growl was definitely not a warning, it was part of the action he was doing...biting (if that makes sense).(Just a note, his bite wasn't without provocation, I stepped on his foot REALLY hard and was yelling and flailing as I tripped and stepped on him, not acceptable, but definitely not a surprise, plus he had some bite inhibition, he could have done FAR worse). I personally don't think it is wise to correct growling as a general rule, but on the other hand I do see how a correction could snap a dog who was growling (and meaning it) could snap them out of the headspace they were in and perhaps prevent escalation at the time and perhaps in the in the future with correction timing and duplication of the circumstances. 
My general opinion, for the general individual who isn't an experienced trainer/behaviorist is don't correct growling, leave it to someone experienced with different kinds of growling and different motivations for it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Plus, why would I want to punish a growl, anyway? The growl is just communication, it's not really a problem in and of itself IMO. Punishing it accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I want to know WHY my dog is growling so I can fix THAT problem.


Yes, this. If my dog is upset enough to growl, I want to know why, and I want to take steps to make sure he or she doesn't feel the need to growl anymore. 

And I will continue to tell strangers on the Internet, "Don't punish a growl, because a growl is communication and if you take away a dog's ability to communicate, he may bite 'without warning.'" I always try to give advice that will keep both owner and dog safe.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Yes, this. If my dog is upset enough to growl, I want to know why, and I want to take steps to make sure he or she doesn't feel the need to growl anymore.
> 
> And I will continue to tell strangers on the Internet, "Don't punish a growl, because a growl is communication and if you take away a dog's ability to communicate, he may bite 'without warning.'" I always try to give advice that will keep both owner and dog safe.


This. Also, some dogs may never stop growling however you punish them, while other dogs will stop growling and just straight to biting. I have no way of knowing which dog an internet stranger has, so I'm going to go with the assumption that they have a dog that will go ahead and bite and give advice from there.

To put it another way, my dog loves when I kiss his muzzle right above his nose. Loves it. Will lift his muzzle to my lips to get me to do it. I don't ever suggest to anyone that they kiss their dog, or anyone's dog, on the muzzle. Despite the fact that my dog likes that, it's overall a really stupid thing to do and I could be directly responsible for getting someone hurt if I suggested it.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Plus, why would I want to punish a growl, anyway? The growl is just communication, it's not really a problem in and of itself IMO. Punishing it accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I want to know WHY my dog is growling so I can fix THAT problem.


I agree. And, when you find out the reason for the growl, and fix the problem, then there may not be anything else to worry about.

Sometimes the reason for the growl requires a simple fix, like taking a sticker out of a sore paw. Sometimes the reason for the growl is completely unacceptable, like, maybe, the dog decides to start resource guarding a spot on the couch. If the reason for the growl is serious or unacceptable, you still have to deal with it, as you dealt with the sticker. You don't just 'accept' it, but, you don't (in my opinion) punish it, because then you may never find out the root of the problem.


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## SheltieQuirks (Dec 1, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Plus, why would I want to punish a growl, anyway? The growl is just communication, it's not really a problem in and of itself IMO. Punishing it accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I want to know WHY my dog is growling so I can fix THAT problem.


Agreed.

Part of the reason I get so nervous watching people at the park or wherever punish their dogs for growling is that it seems to be the result of inappropriate emotion on the human's part. "You've offended me by growling, that's not your place! I won't tolerate it!" As if the dog is making a malicious challenge. It's not a system of thought I find productive in dealing with dogs (or any animal for that matter), no matter how out of control they may be.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, I agree exactly! People take it so personally... "How DARE you growl at ME?!" Like a dog isn't "allowed" to growl, ever, because it is somehow disrespectful? I don't understand it. 

The growl is just telling me there's a problem. Then I try to figure out the problem and try to fix it. If I punish the growl, then the unfixed problem is still there. How in the world is that a good thing? Because it lets me feel like I'm "in charge" of a dog who isn't allowed to tell me when something is wrong?

Does not compute.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Yes, I agree exactly! People take it so personally... "How DARE you growl at ME?!" Like a dog isn't "allowed" to growl, ever, because it is somehow disrespectful? I don't understand it.


I will say there is such a thing as a rude growl.....Caeda just did this evening (it made me think of this thread actually). She REALLY wanted some of the cheese we had on our snack plate (she gets cheese as treats very often, so I'm not surprised she thought she should be entitled, but still not cool), she sat, she downed (all on her own!), stood, laid down again, etc....then when all of her performances didn't work (as much as I appreciated it, we were trying to chill and watch a moive) she gave a bit of a bark, a growl (well...sort of a grumble), and then a disgruntled sigh before she finally stopped. She kept trying the grumble and bark several times, again I did verbally correct her for that. I suppose this is kind of my fault, with Schutzhund she's been learning the "bark and hold", which involves barking to get what she wants (which for ScH is the bite sleeve). She did deserve a "NO" for her performance this evening though...that was rude lol. When she finally settled and stopped trying to make me give her the cheese she got some as a treat for calming down. It certainly wasn't the kind of growling we're talking about on this thread though....but I thought it was interesting, and something that is easy to forget when we are talking over the internet, there are so many different kinds of growling, grumbling and "mumbling".


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

that is what I was thinking,, the huge range of differences on how individual react what information they relaying to the dog,... and their relationship with the dog on how it is received.....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Indeed, I have had dogs do the "bark growl" at me as well, just more communication, but not one of an aggressive nature.

I have a couple of dogs that would growl at a stranger who tried to, say, do their nails....but they'd be all bluster. They're just trying to see if they can get away with it with a new person. Eyes are soft, no stress panting, no eye whites, just displeasure. That's the kind of thing where I would have the other person (or would just say myself) "Oh shut it!" because they're just being bratty.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I don't think I've ever heard Pepper growl. Like ever. He has play growled but its more like a low rumble that escalates into his excited dog bark.

I will say that earlier today a dog put his teeth on me with no growl. I was attempting to fit him properly for a harness (because no customer can do that themselves...) His owner was handling him while I slipped the harness on and bam, teeth on my hand. It didn't break the skin and there was actually almost zero warning. I knew he was uncomfortable but I assumed his owner knew that and was going to keep his teeth off me. Or warn me that he might want to nip. I mentioned that I got a nip and his owner literally said nothing. Apparently he was a rescue and relatively new. Its unclear if he was punished for growling or if I just completely missed all the signs and made him extremely uncomfortable to the point of nipping or if it was something to do with the harnessing or something else entirely. *shrug*

I much prefer a growl to immediate teeth to skin. At least a growl is a loud and clear, "Back off, I'm uncomfortable!"


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Another growl that I got often from one of our fosters, and occasionally from Caeda. I call it the "grumble greeting". Super happy, wiggly greeting, coming towards me going "rowwowwowrow". 
I did consider with the foster teaching him to not do it....I personally love it, but I can see how some people might get scared of a growling/grumbling dog coming coming towards them, happy or not. I didn't correct it, but I think it would have been a very safe and easy thing to "correct", especially with that dog, SO soft. Just turning away from him while he was doing it (especially since when he is doing it he is coming for pets) would probably have put a quick end to it. He ended up with an owner who LOVES the happy exuberance of him, and I have a feeling the grumble greeting wont' be an issue (we told him about it and his response was "Aw cool!").


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I personally don't mind the "bitching" kind of growl or an attention-getting bark/growl. Because I KNOW what the "problem" is, and honestly I don't care about it that much... I can just ignore begging or attention-getting until it stops, and hey... we all bitch about something from time to time. 

I'm talking about warning growls. Then I want to get to the bottom of it.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

I like how this person methodically challenged an accepted notion and gave it thought and not blind acceptance. Someone on this forum a while back also said to me that punishing a growl will lead straight to biting and I was like, "bitch whaaat???" and then a bunch of other people backed them up and I was like, "uhhh okay?" I guess sometimes people get too caught up in being a positive reinforcement trainer that they accept anything that goes against punishment and forget to think about if it makes sense.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I dunno. I mean, the author said right there that it can lead to other problems, such as "redirecting aggression onto the handler", which would usually mean a bite, right? Kind of sounds like a different way of saying the same thing to me :/.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I dunno. I mean, the author said right there that it can lead to other problems, such as "redirecting aggression onto the handler", which would usually mean a bite, right? Kind of sounds like a different way of saying the same thing to me :/.



The author is challenging the notion that all attempts to punish a growl will lead to a dog that bites without warning, and that is a valid challenge considering the unique set of circumstances that needs to happen to lead to that result. There are probably a myriad of things that can happen if punishing a growl, with flash biting being one of them.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Will you be happier if we start telling people, "Don't punish your dog for growling, because it _might_ lead to a dog that bites without warning"?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Will you be happier if we start telling people, "Don't punish your dog for growling, because it _might_ lead to a dog that bites without warning"?



I wasn't upset in the first place, but yeah I spose that would be a better way of putting it.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Will you be happier if we start telling people, "Don't punish your dog for growling, because it _might_ lead to a dog that bites without warning"?


You didn't ask me, but I would be happier if people stuck to stating facts that they know to be actual facts. Before there was an internet, I'd never even heard that correcting a _threat_ will cause your dog to become a silent assassin. I don't say it's impossible to make it go like that, but I remain skeptical that it is anything remotely like a typical response.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Another growl that I got often from one of our fosters, and occasionally from Caeda. I call it the "grumble greeting". Super happy, wiggly greeting, coming towards me going "rowwowwowrow".
> I did consider with the foster teaching him to not do it....I personally love it, but I can see how some people might get scared of a growling/grumbling dog coming coming towards them, happy or not.


Good job, no reason to adjust a dog's personality, I like a dog that talks to me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> You didn't ask me, but I would be happier if people stuck to stating facts that they know to be actual facts. Before there was an internet, I'd never even heard that correcting a _threat_ will cause your dog to become a silent assassin. I don't say it's impossible to make it go like that, but I remain skeptical that it is anything remotely like a typical response.


Silly me, I like to at least consider the idea that if someone or something threatens me, it might follow through. And I certainly think that's the safest thing to tell a stranger on the Internet. Better for them to find out what's causing the dog to growl and eliminate the dog's NEED to growl than to punish it. I am definitely never going to suggest P+ of any sort to an Internet stranger.

And before there was an Internet (or before everyone had it, anyway), a dog training book told me that dogs' nerve endings are far underneath their skin and so you can hit them without hurting them, making hitting an important and useful part of dog training. Popular "wisdom" like rubbing a dog's nose in its waste to housebreak it also spread way before the Internet. I learned better techniques than those from the bad ol' Internet.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Plus, why would I want to punish a growl, anyway? The growl is just communication, it's not really a problem in and of itself IMO. Punishing it accomplishes nothing whatsoever. I want to know WHY my dog is growling so I can fix THAT problem.


That was my first thought as well. A growl IS just communication. Whether or not it's "sacred" no idea - but, yeah the dog is saying "I don't like this", IF it's that type of growl (not all growls are the same or in the same situation). Wally growling at an overturned chair in a field is different than if he growled at something approaching him or because he got surprised by stepping on a beetle and he felt it move/crawl and he thought something was trying to get him.


Also this:

"This might explain why I’ve never experienced the phenomenon first hand, despite punishing dogs for growling myself a fair number of times. I can’t imagine using punishment as an isolated strategy, without training alternate behaviors or conditioning a better emotional response to triggers."

I bet a lot of people do use punishment as an isolated strategy, which is probably why the saying 'never punish a growl' got started. It's not an "absolute truth" but it's a "you are much less likely to go wrong if.." sort of thing. And if you're doing counterconditioning, why punish the growl? Move the dog away, settle her down, trying again - no need for punishment?




Xeph said:


> I have a couple of dogs that would growl at a stranger who tried to, say, do their nails....but they'd be all bluster. They're just trying to see if they can get away with it with a new person. Eyes are soft, no stress panting, no eye whites, just displeasure. That's the kind of thing where I would have the other person (or would just say myself) "Oh shut it!" because they're just being bratty.



Imagine that - reading the dog's communication in the context of the situation and the rest of his signals (or lack of). No need for a generalization - just read the dog.



Crantastic said:


> Popular "wisdom" like rubbing a dog's nose in its waste to housebreak it also spread way before the Internet.


Now this is one I'd like to know how it got started. In way rational way could this possibly work?


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

What is the definition of punishing? Hamilton will growl if he's sleeping on the couch at night and try to shift him so you can also sit on the couch. If he does this, he gets told "off" to get off the couch (a command we practice over and over and over absent of conflict), and he'll generally go lay in his bed on the floor instead and go back to sleep. I feel like, there's no threat here on our part, he is tired and wants to be left alone, but if that's the case, he needs to go to his bed or his crate and sleep and no one will bother him. If he's on people furniture, he needs to be a little more flexible! If he just moves over some, he gets to stay and is left alone.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Hambonez said:


> What is the definition of punishing? Hamilton will growl if he's sleeping on the couch at night and try to shift him so you can also sit on the couch.


More like, what is the definition of growling? My dog did the same kind of thing, but I considered that complaining. As an inveterate grump, myself, I consider growling upon waking to be every creature's right. A threat is something quite different and it behooves one to know the difference and act accordingly.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I find that normally when we give "don't punish a growl" advice here, it's for resource guarding -- usually of food -- or for a dog that grows at other dogs or humans out of fear.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Marsh Muppet said:


> More like, what is the definition of growling? My dog did the same kind of thing, but I considered that complaining. As an inveterate grump, myself, I consider growling upon waking to be every creature's right. A threat is something quite different and it behooves one to know the difference and act accordingly.


He is audibly expressing discontent at being asked to shift his wiener behind a bit so someone else can sit with him. He gets nippy sometimes, though will whip his head around then lick you. I just don't feel good about encouraging him to feel like he can control where people are allowed to sit when he has places he can go where no one will bother him.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I can't say I've ever seen/heard a dog growl at his owner as a true threat. And if it did happen, if your relationship with your own dog is that bad, engaging physically seems like a really awful idea. Usually it's resource guarding (based in fear) or other fearful behaviors. 

But, what, we should just tell people "yeah, go ahead and kick the crap out of your dog for growling at you. It'll make you feel sooper tuff and macho, and you'll feel like you Did Something, so knock yerself out"? :/


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Hambonez said:


> He is audibly expressing discontent at being asked to shift his wiener behind a bit so someone else can sit with him. He gets nippy sometimes, though will whip his head around then lick you. I just don't feel good about encouraging him to feel like he can control where people are allowed to sit when he has places he can go where no one will bother him.


Only if he pays the mortgage


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Hambonez said:


> What is the definition of punishing? Hamilton will growl if he's sleeping on the couch at night and try to shift him so you can also sit on the couch. If he does this, he gets told "off" to get off the couch (a command we practice over and over and over absent of conflict), and he'll generally go lay in his bed on the floor instead and go back to sleep. I feel like, there's no threat here on our part, he is tired and wants to be left alone, but if that's the case, he needs to go to his bed or his crate and sleep and no one will bother him. If he's on people furniture, he needs to be a little more flexible! If he just moves over some, he gets to stay and is left alone.


Giving him an instruction, I wouldn't consider that punishment. If you'd like him to move over, you could tell him maybe? I pat where I would like Wally to move to and he typically does, so then there's no issue. But if it's like a chair, then I'll call him or give him the 'off' type command as well.

Either way, I don't think any of that is punishment, and like Marsh said, I wouldn't consider that growling. More like complaining/groaning.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@KBLover - [Re: Crantastic Post]
>>>Popular "wisdom" like rubbing a dog's nose in its waste to housebreak it also spread way before the Internet.

I believe this was the William Koehler method [or Richard Wolper] from the 1960s. And, it does work kinda, just like beating a dog works kinda ... if you don't mind all of the other repercussions, such as the dog only pooping out of sight, the dog fearing you, and probably doing bad things to his nose.

While I'm at it, the Monks of New Skete get credit for spreading the Alpha Roll method in their first edition of Dog Training. They corrected that mistake in the second edition ... but I don't think anyone (except me? ;-) ) ever read the second addition.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think any actual trainer (Koehler or otherwise) ever recommended rubbing a dog's face in his waste. . .my grandma had a dog book from the 50s and it said that doing that would make your dog "dirty". I did read one book by a trainer, I don't remember who, who said you should step on the pup's leash and pull it so his face is on the ground right next to the waste, then slap the puppy a few times. . .so yeah, pre-internet dog advice wasn't any kind of special :/.

I don't think the Monks actually removed the Alpha Roll thing from their second book, I think they just amended the recommendations on when to use it.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Good job, no reason to adjust a dog's personality, I like a dog that talks to me.


Thanks wvasko. I love it too...I was a little worried about how a new potential owner might take it, but I figured if they can't "get it" they aren't the right owners for him. Now that he has the right owners I definitely feel fantastic about making that call. 

As for the punishing growling and redirecting and such. I've thought about it a fair bit and problems can be had when it comes to the actual punishment itself. The type, intensity and frequency of it can make a big difference I'm sure, and I'm sure that Ruth is suggesting involving some physical correction here, rather than just a verbal "no". If you're just poking and prodding, maybe little tugs on the leash leaning in going "No, No, No" and nagging away it could easily ramp the dog up more and have it turn around and basically say "Back off I'm busy here!". On the other hand taking a dog that is ramped up and giving it too harsh of a correction might make it stop focusing on what it is growling at, and get defensive (especially if it is scared of what it is growling at) and bite the handler instead. The "perfect" (dare I use that word in association with a correction) correction would be just enough to break the dog's attention from what it is fixated on and get it back, if at all possible, hold that attention and give some positive to reward for holding the appropriate attention. 

The problem is the "right" correction to avoid a redirection, AND avoid overcorrecting. Very tough balance, so I guess I get back to what pretty much everybody else is saying.....general rule on internet advice "don't correct growling". Sure, people do it all the time without even realizing what they have done, but a lot of the people who come here with problems associated with growling, well....best to try positive methods or find a professional to help them find the exact balance that they need. Even positive can be iffy....all the treats in the world won't help if you push things too far at the wrong time on a serious problem. 

I personally love growls, they are helpful, even on our "trouble boy", huge help to tell me where his discomfort level is (thankfully he is very vocal with his warnings, and physically gentle with them). If it weren't for growling/grumbling I'd never have been able to finally pet him properly and groom his back and rear because I wouldn't have been able to tell when was too much and almost time for me to back off. I really wish I had videotaped some of the desensitization sessions, after them there was a great sense of having had a fairly in depth and constructive conversation.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Koehler, Cesar Milan, Monks of New Skeet, whatevs. The OP was challenging the notion that correcting a growl causes bites w/o warning. It may be a lousy idea to correct a growl (I'll do it in some situations; not in others) but it has become conventional wisdom on message boards and people repeat it having no idea whether it's true. 

And people are responsible for their own dogs and their own actions. If you act on anonymous advice from the intertubes, without learning the whys and wherefores, then you need a checkup from the neck up. Just because a particular piece of misinformation doesn't suggest coercive methods doesn't mean following it can't do harm.

Better information is better, even if--maybe especially if--it challenges long held beliefs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

But isn't the long-held belief "kick the crap out of your dog every time he challenges you or he'll take over the house"? I thought the 'don't punish a growl" thing WAS challenging long-held beliefs. . .


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I can't say I've ever seen/heard a dog growl at his owner as a true threat.


Me, either. And I'm not sure I would attempt to correct a dog who I truly felt threatened by in the moment of growling, either.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Only if he pays the mortgage


With all his hard work at the Nibbles Factory, you'd think he'd be able to pitch in. He seems to blow all his cash on bully sticks and squeaky toys.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Koehler, Cesar Milan, Monks of New Skeet, whatevs. The OP was challenging the notion that correcting a growl causes bites w/o warning. It may be a lousy idea to correct a growl (I'll do it in some situations; not in others) but it has become conventional wisdom on message boards and people repeat it having no idea whether it's true.


How can it ever be proven true (or false) considering it's going to be dependent to the dynamics of the dog-handler-context at the time?

If it happens for one dog, it doesn't prove it true - if it doesn't for another it doesn't prove it false. 

It would be like me saying "Cotons are fearful" because Wally is/was. That's no more true than saying "Cotons are never fearful" because Wally is/was. 

Isn't the only truth that matters what happens with the dog you're interacting with? Like Xeph's example - she told the dog to hush because she's knows the dog and his personality. I might tell Wally to stop because Wally chooses flight over fight whenever possible. Another dog that's shown fear-aggression behavior, the growl is a good thing. 

When is it a good idea, though, to suppress a dog's communication regardless of whatever or not growling leads to biting? Isn't it always a lousy idea to attempt to remove a way a dog can communicate with you, especially in a situation where the dog is feeling uneasy? Doesn't mean you can't tell him to "get over it", but knowing that dog is feeling that through his communication would seem to be a very useful thing.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> More like, what is the definition of growling? My dog did the same kind of thing, but I considered that complaining. As an inveterate grump, myself, I consider growling upon waking to be every creature's right. A threat is something quite different and it behooves one to know the difference and act accordingly.


Yes, I agree. We have a "family" bed, consisting of myself, husband, our two small dogs (the third one sleeps on the dog bed next to the human bed - his choice) and sometimes one or two cats. The cats are horrible at just crawling all over us to find a spot. They crawl all over the dogs, too. When a cat crawls on the top of Harper (they are roughly the same size, cat and dog) he growls. I see it as "hey, get the bleep off of me." Which, by the way, is the same thing I say when the cats crawl on me.

I think there are probably a good many occasions where one of our dogs growling is nothing big and needs no response at all. Now, as Hambonez said, if our dogs growl, on the couch, and can't move over, down they go (off command) and they can try to be polite again later. So, yeah, that gets a response. And, punishment, I guess, because they lose use of the couch for the moment. 

But, I believe that, by taking away their use of the couch, when this happens, I am kind of preventing a guarding issue (guarding the couch) from developing.

I just think, in general, that growling has been seen as something inherently negative by lots of folks. It means their dog is aggressive or bad or mean. So, they punish it, in the way someone else mentioned "how dare you growl at me?" 
So, usually, when I mention the not punishing the growl thing, I try to let folks know that there is nothing inherently NEGATIVE about growling. It doesn't mean your dog is aggressive or mean or bad. Dogs growl for a variety of reasons, some good. So, why through the baby out with the bathwater?


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> How can it ever be proven true (or false) considering it's going to be dependent to the dynamics of the dog-handler-context at the time?
> 
> If it happens for one dog, it doesn't prove it true - if it doesn't for another it doesn't prove it false.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I think I agree. I mean, dogs are individuals. If you punish one dog for growling and he bites, it doesn't mean every dog will. There are so many things to consider, the dog-human relationship, the dog's temperament, the setting, etc.

Haven't we all read threads where folks here recommend people stop alpha rolling their dog, and the person comes back on and responds with something like "well, my brother alpha rolls HIS dog and his dog isn't afraid of him, plus it works," or "I have alpha rolled my other dogs, there's nothing wrong with it." 
Just because someone considers it to have "worked" doesn't mean it's the right or proper technique to use.

So, maybe, with growling, you could find dogs that don't go straight to biting, if they're punished for growling, so punishing the growl seems to "work" for them, does that mean it's the right and proper thing to do? And, by punish, I guess I mean the "how dare you growl at me" kind of punishment, rather than a response that is appropriate to the reason why they growled in the first place.


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