# Clicker Training - When to completely fade treat?



## FrostQ (May 5, 2010)

I've been using the clicker training method found on this site and other internet sources for 3 weeks now. 

This is what I've been doing for the past weeks:
Step 1) Click = Treat 
Step 2) Obey command = Click + Treat
Step 3) Shaping...look/touch = Click + Treat

So...when can I fully fade out the treat? How would I know when the puppy (6 months) is fully "clicker trained"? If I slowly fade out the treat, how do I remind her that Click=Treat?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

For each command, I fade the treat when my dog is successfully obeying the command 100% of the time in low and high-distraction areas. And I fade slowly. I'll start skipping every third repitition of the command or so, just say good boy and pet him. Then I'll start skipping every other repitition if he's still listening well, and so on. 

When you fade the treat, you shouldn't need to remind her that C=T, you aren't clicking OR treating when you're fading the treat. You're fading the clicker with this. You just keeping using C=T with other commands.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Never. One of the basic tenants of learning theory is...behavior reinforced is behavior repeated, and...behavior that is not reinforced is behavior that is extinguished. So, really, you should never fade the reinforcer. But I understand this isn't your question. I would fade the food reward for an alternate rienforcer (or if you prefer the Dunbarism, "life reward") once the dog responds to the cue at a rate that I deem acceptable. What is acceptable to me is dependent on the behavior, its cost, and value in the grand scheme of things. For example, recall is one behavior I want to always highly reinforce...play dead, not so much.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

FrostQ said:


> I've been using the clicker training method found on this site and other internet sources for 3 weeks now.
> 
> This is what I've been doing for the past weeks:
> Step 1) Click = Treat
> ...


If you mean treat literally (as in a piece of food), then you can do that almost whenever - just replace it with something else your dog loves. Like you could click and then run around for 5 seconds. Click and play tug, click and let her sniff something she likes, Click and continue the walk, click and let her go pee on something, etc.

If you mean treat as a "slang" for any reinforcement, then never. Always have some rate of reinforcement for a behavior you want maintained. 

For reminding her, you can also teach her something else using the clicker. Any c/t she gets will remind her that the rules of the game are still the same. Earn a click, you get a treat. To earn a click, do something I like. Or just c/t what she already knows. Nothing says you can't c/t a fully mastered behavior. Nothing says you can't click something at random that she just does (like lie down, you can just click her lying quietly and give her a treat. I do this with Wally all the time.  One of the games I play with Wally is just quickly throwing cues at him that he's already got down pat and c/t him.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

Never.






.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

FrostQ said:


> I've been using the clicker training method found on this site and other internet sources for 3 weeks now.
> 
> This is what I've been doing for the past weeks:
> Step 1) Click = Treat
> ...


Fully? Anytime, if you don't mind your training going down the drain  You can fade them out a lot, sure, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep some on you as a big surprise and randomly reinforce. 
At 6 months old, I wouldn't be ready to even be phasing treats out just yet, unless you're still using a lure. (Do you have to hold up a treat for your dog to see for him to sit?) A 6 month old golden is just heading into their teenager years, which gives a lot of people gray hairs (myself included.) 
What do you really mean by "fully clicker trained"? Do you mean fading the clicker out completely? (That usually doesn't take long). Or do you mean 100% trained to do what you want with a "good dog" mumble once in awhile? Fully trained is something I've never achieved...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

You can't keep clicking without the treat, because then she will only learn that the clicker no longer means treat, and then she will start to ignore it. I read somewhere that once you have the command on cue, you no longer need to click it, but a reward is still nice, either attention (patting/good dog etc), a toy or a treat without the click.

There is no such thing as 'fully clicker trained'. You would continue to use the clicker every time she is learning something new, you would just stop using it for the things she already knows.


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## FrostQ (May 5, 2010)

Point Taken...Thanks!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> You can't keep clicking without the treat, because then she will only learn that the clicker no longer means treat, and then she will start to ignore it. I read somewhere that once you have the command on cue, you no longer need to click it, but a reward is still nice, either attention (patting/good dog etc), a toy or a treat without the click.
> 
> There is no such thing as 'fully clicker trained'. You would continue to use the clicker every time she is learning something new, you would just stop using it for the things she already knows.


Exactly. Once it's on cue, the clicker can go away til you teach something else. The rewards should be ongoing on a variable basis.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Exactly. Once it's on cue, the clicker can go away til you teach something else. *The rewards should be ongoing on a variable basis*.


Tag is on an extremely variable, extremely unpredictable schedule of treats at agility training right now. I thinkt he discussion we had awhile back (about a powerful reinforcer being such a bridge for a new skill) sums him up well. Tag LOVES food. But Tag has been highly reinforced on agility equipment, on the flat, and over jumps since he started, hence now Tag LOVES agility. I'm anxious to see if Dude develops this love of the game as much as Tag, because Dude does love food, and is really getting into practicing jumps, turns, etc. 
Does anyone else here, once in awhile, jackpot their dogs for something they already know and do well? Once in awhile I'll jackpot the heck out of Tag for something simple...a jump, a contact, a tunnel, etc. I still jackpot the crap out of him on the teeter, but he's getting much more comfortable for it and now might be the time to gradually reward the strongest attempts and ignore the rest?


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Too be honest I very rarely if ever jackpot in training unless I'm working on a behaviour that reflects a huge change in confidence..if that makes sense.
If Cracker makes a breakthrough on a behaviour that I know she finds difficult or super stressful (remembering that she's an anxious dog) she will get a very excited, multi treat celebration. But normally, when doing training I simply reward each attempt until upping the criteria, using Jean Donaldson's rule: On five trials if I get 4/5 or 5/5 I up the criteria (Push), if I get 3/5 I Stick, less than 3/5 I Drop the criteria.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Cracker said:


> Too be honest I very rarely if ever jackpot in training unless I'm working on a behaviour that reflects a huge change in confidence..if that makes sense.
> If Cracker makes a breakthrough on a behaviour that I know she finds difficult or super stressful (remembering that she's an anxious dog) she will get a very excited, multi treat celebration. But normally, when doing training I simply reward each attempt until upping the criteria, using Jean Donaldson's rule: On five trials if I get 4/5 or 5/5 I up the criteria (Push), if I get 3/5 I Stick, less than 3/5 I Drop the criteria.


Have you noticed some adverse affects with using jackpots or have you just not found it necessary except in specific situations like the one you mentioned?

Just curious as to your thinking.


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## Chloe Braun (Aug 21, 2010)

rewards are needed for most dogs... try to lessen the treats. incorporate a pat, encouraging words in between treats. do it gradually though... make him understand that C=rewards and rewards are not always treats/food.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Chloe Braun said:


> rewards are needed for most dogs... try to lessen the treats. incorporate a pat, encouraging words in between treats. do it gradually though... make him understand that C=rewards and rewards are not always treats/food.


Since the OP is using the clicker, she might try with I did with Tag. Click ALWAYS means treat, no matter what. (I tried explaining this to my 10 year old neice, and she said "so even if you click him if he's pooping on the floor, you have to give him a treat?" She thought this was hysterical, lol).
I also loaded a "keep going signal", meaning "you're on the right track, you're doing EXACTLY what I want." I use "good". When Tag hears "good", he visibly brightens, because he knows the chance of earning a reward is great. Sometimes the reward is a toy (for speed in the weaves...he wubs his latex pretzel), and sometimes it's a treat, sometimes it's a good petting (which he likes, but doens't work for soley). Mixing it up after the behavior is learned is a good idea IMO. (If you teach "Sit" in your living room with no distractions, you can phase out treats for every response, but if you take a distractable young dog on the road you might have to drag the treats out again. Asking for a sit in the living room is totally different than asking for a sit 20 feet from the dog park with 10 screaming kids on the playground behind you, kwim?)



KBLover said:


> Have you noticed some adverse affects with using jackpots or have you just not found it necessary except in specific situations like the one you mentioned?
> 
> Just curious as to your thinking.


Not Cracker (obviously!), but the only bad thing I've found with JP's is that the dog can sometimes lose their train of thought. If I jackpot Tag 10 treats in a row for something brilliant, he might not remember what he did 15 seconds ago because he's so focused on recieving his reward. I think too it can get frustrating because if we do something 5 times, and he does it right once, he is probably just guessing and doesn't really know what I want yet.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Have you noticed some adverse affects with using jackpots or have you just not found it necessary except in specific situations like the one you mentioned?
> 
> Just curious as to your thinking.


No, no adverse effects, though like LG has mentioned it can slow down the process somewhat. I just simply don't plan the training that much and any jackpots are more celebratory for me (yay you did it!! here's extra!!) than for actual conscious reinforcing on my part. THat being said, when working with puppies I do use a "sort of" jackpot for coming when called exercises, what Leslie Nelson calls "fine dining"...really high value treats given one after another rather slowly with lots of praise for a recall. Not only does it make the coming special, it also gets pup used to coming and HANGING OUT with you for 15 seconds or so, rather than heading back out into the fray right away.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't think there's any scientific study of jackpotting. When monkeys are given an option between various payout probabilities, they opt for the one that rewards them the most frequently, even though the average reward is the same. I speculate that they would still opt for the more frequent payoff even if the more variable payoff schedule paid on average slightly more.


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

I usually jackpot for a really good job on something she knows. So far there isn't much she knows, but if I give her the sit command and she obviously didn't see me because she was looking elsewhere, but as soon as she looks and sees my arm frozen at the end of the motion for sit and she actually sits, right away, she'll get a jackpot for doing that. I treat for almost everything, because I'm working on accuracy and I always want her to do what I've shown her, so she always gets something so she wants to continue to perform even if she hasn't seen the whole command.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Not Cracker (obviously!), but the only bad thing I've found with JP's is that the dog can sometimes lose their train of thought. If I jackpot Tag 10 treats in a row for something brilliant, he might not remember what he did 15 seconds ago because he's so focused on recieving his reward. I think too it can get frustrating because if we do something 5 times, and he does it right once, he is probably just guessing and doesn't really know what I want yet.


Wouldn't, then, a jackpot "drive the point home?"

If Wally and I are working on something, he fails 4 times then either by chance or whatever, got it right the 5th time.

Those first 4 times got him nothing, the 5th behavior finds him all but choking down 5 bread balls. While he probably (probably) can't count (I don't think...) I do think he can figure out which behavior got him some big reward - since, usually, he'll do the same thing again!

Now the question would be - would one treat work just as well? I don't know, but after a jackpot I can just about count on getting that behavior again. After one - sometimes it's still hit or miss. Bread is cheap and those 4 extra bread balls won't make him fat, so I go with it 

Likewise, I don't use too many keep going signals with Wally. I'd rather either click the partial correctness and just outright shape it, or be silent/look away (a bit of a NRM in itself), and have him keep working at it until he does it and I c/t.

The closest thing I do with "keep going" is if he looks at me for a prolonged time (not just a quick glance to see if I'm making with some food) - that's a signal for either confusion or looking for more information (depends on what his ears are doing). Depending on the situation, I'll re-cue the direction or "reset" him and have him try again.



JiveDadson said:


> I don't think there's any scientific study of jackpotting. When monkeys are given an option between various payout probabilities, they opt for the one that rewards them the most frequently, even though the average reward is the same. I speculate that they would still opt for the more frequent payoff even if the more variable payoff schedule paid on average slightly more.



Hmm...I guess it depends how high animals can "count". If their number system is basically binary (1 or 0) then jackpots would be pretty much a waste of time if that's all they are regarding. (I.e. I got something so it's more than nothing). It would then make sense that a steady "1" is better than a bunch of "0's" and then a "5".

But - if animals have some concept of quantity (whether they can count or otherwise sense they have gotten a lot of something) then...maybe jackpotting is viable from the animal's standpoint instead of a celebration type action like Cracker mentioned. 

Both view points make sense - too bad there's not a lot of information.

Probably off-topic, but do you think dogs are aware if you give them less food when you feed them? Like say you usually give a full bowl of kibble, but then next meal, you give them 10. Do you think they know the difference? If so - could that extend to treating (basically, feeding them)?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Wouldn't, then, a jackpot "drive the point home?"

*In some cases yes, in some, no. I tend to jackpot the first correct guess, and 9 times out of 10 Tag will do it the same way next time. But in some cases (especially if I drop a handful of food for him to sniff out) it seems like in the time it takes for him to get his reward scarfed down, he forgot exactly what he was doing that earned it in the first place. Which is one reason why I jackpot one treat at a time, rapid fire. (anywhere from 2-10ish.) If it's a position (such as front, contacts, whatever) he seems to "remember" a lot better (being fed in that position, and the food stopping when he breaks), as opposed to turning right over a jump as a rear cross. That's a lot to remember, and I still think in the early stages he's just guessing  *

If Wally and I are working on something, he fails 4 times then either by chance or whatever, got it right the 5th time.

Those first 4 times got him nothing, the 5th behavior finds him all but choking down 5 bread balls. While he probably (probably) can't count (I don't think...) I do think he can figure out which behavior got him some big reward - since, usually, he'll do the same thing again!

*I know one trainer who said her dog will spit out the food after a click, so she can do some more problem solving. Tag has done that once or twice, but it's a rare thing with my li'l chow hound. I do think jackpots are variable, and can work for or against you depending on your dog. Tag has a marvelous attention span, where Auz does not. Auz likes jackpots but rarely does the same thing over again to get the reward, so I'm thinking that might have something to do with it.*

Now the question would be - would one treat work just as well? I don't know, but after a jackpot I can just about count on getting that behavior again. After one - sometimes it's still hit or miss. Bread is cheap and those 4 extra bread balls won't make him fat, so I go with it 

*That's a good question! I think a jackpot is a "pleasant surprise" for a lot of dogs. I suppose if you were treating with a Bronze Stature Reward (a piece of cookie), you could up to a Gold Stature Reward (chicken, or in Wallys case, bread. Or in Tags case, a piece of cardboard lol) instead of a rapid fire jackpot, treat after treat.*

Likewise, I don't use too many keep going signals with Wally. I'd rather either click the partial correctness and just outright shape it, or be silent/look away (a bit of a NRM in itself), and have him keep working at it until he does it and I c/t.
*I use keep going signals with Tag, because he knows "good" means he's well on his way to a click. It's worked well with tougher things (the teeter, dog walk, etc), but not so much with one or two step behaviors like jump or find heel. *

The closest thing I do with "keep going" is if he looks at me for a prolonged time (not just a quick glance to see if I'm making with some food) - that's a signal for either confusion or looking for more information (depends on what his ears are doing). Depending on the situation, I'll re-cue the direction or "reset" him and have him try again.




Hmm...I guess it depends how high animals can "count". If their number system is basically binary (1 or 0) then jackpots would be pretty much a waste of time if that's all they are regarding. (I.e. I got something so it's more than nothing). It would then make sense that a steady "1" is better than a bunch of "0's" and then a "5".

*When it comes to food, Tag swears he can count to 9,000 LOL!!*

But - if animals have some concept of quantity (whether they can count or otherwise sense they have gotten a lot of something) then...maybe jackpotting is viable from the animal's standpoint instead of a celebration type action like Cracker mentioned. 


Both view points make sense - too bad there's not a lot of information.

Probably off-topic, but do you think dogs are aware if you give them less food when you feed them? Like say you usually give a full bowl of kibble, but then next meal, you give them 10. Do you think they know the difference? If so - could that extend to treating (basically, feeding them)?

*Interesting question--I have no idea *


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

*In some cases yes, in some, no. I tend to jackpot the first correct guess, and 9 times out of 10 Tag will do it the same way next time. But in some cases (especially if I drop a handful of food for him to sniff out) it seems like in the time it takes for him to get his reward scarfed down, he forgot exactly what he was doing that earned it in the first place. Which is one reason why I jackpot one treat at a time, rapid fire. (anywhere from 2-10ish.) If it's a position (such as front, contacts, whatever) he seems to "remember" a lot better (being fed in that position, and the food stopping when he breaks), as opposed to turning right over a jump as a rear cross. That's a lot to remember, and I still think in the early stages he's just guessing  *

_Yeah, that's why I hand feed them the jackpot too. No way am I going to put him in "hunting mode" by dropping the food on the ground for him to sniff. I KNOW that will get him distracted!  

So at least delivery (speed and method) does matter. _

*I know one trainer who said her dog will spit out the food after a click, so she can do some more problem solving. Tag has done that once or twice, but it's a rare thing with my li'l chow hound. I do think jackpots are variable, and can work for or against you depending on your dog. Tag has a marvelous attention span, where Auz does not. Auz likes jackpots but rarely does the same thing over again to get the reward, so I'm thinking that might have something to do with it.*

_Spit out the treat after getting the click? I think Wally just fell over in disbelief LOL He says "Picz nao" because he doesn't believe it  I know I'd NEVER get that behavior out of him. To him, clicks exist just to get him food. Remembering what he did to get the click is just an unnecessary detail imposed by me LOL

Wally's attention span is good - once you get it. He can be distracted because he's so...ahem...alert (read: nosy)
_


*That's a good question! I think a jackpot is a "pleasant surprise" for a lot of dogs. I suppose if you were treating with a Bronze Stature Reward (a piece of cookie), you could up to a Gold Stature Reward (chicken, or in Wallys case, bread. Or in Tags case, a piece of cardboard lol) instead of a rapid fire jackpot, treat after treat.*

_That's one thing I never got into was varying rewards during a session. Like giving a blah reward for ordinary success and then a super one for a really good performance or him figuring out the next step very quickly on his own. He gets a variety of rewards across all sessions (all of them high on his list - never got into rewarding with "meh" rewards - figure if high rewards keep his attention and help him remember the event the best, why not start there? 

Plus, if he's getting the big reward at the start - wouldn't that really get the dog into it and driving to get it again? It's like we know R+ works, but wouldn't R+ (great rewards every time) work even better?

LOL @ Cardboard. That's too funny! Reminds of the dog I saw on here sometime back that liked pinecones.
_


*I use keep going signals with Tag, because he knows "good" means he's well on his way to a click. It's worked well with tougher things (the teeter, dog walk, etc), but not so much with one or two step behaviors like jump or find heel. *

_Yeah, I can see why they work. That's just a behavior I'd go on shaping. (c/t every step until he's traversed it, then do it again 10 more times lol). One less thing for him to think about and since my voice is about as charged as the clicker, I'd probably use them the same way ("say good, but as a reward marker as much as a "keep going").
_


*When it comes to food, Tag swears he can count to 9,000 LOL!!*

_LOL - I hear that!_


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

_Yeah, that's why I hand feed them the jackpot too. No way am I going to put him in "hunting mode" by dropping the food on the ground for him to sniff. I KNOW that will get him distracted!  

So at least delivery (speed and method) does matter. 

*I learned the hard way about hunting mode *


Spit out the treat after getting the click? I think Wally just fell over in disbelief LOL He says "Picz nao" because he doesn't believe it I know I'd NEVER get that behavior out of him. To him, clicks exist just to get him food. Remembering what he did to get the click is just an unnecessary detail imposed by me LOL

Wally's attention span is good - once you get it. He can be distracted because he's so...ahem...alert (read: nosy)

*I think this is when we were working on targeting rear paws. He got SO into it. It was hilarious. He would back onto the book, then start making a dramatic digging motion (like some dogs do when burrowing in blankets) and do this growly sound he does. It was SO cute. One time he wondered if he'd get clicked for chewing the book. He didn't. Such a silly dog!
Tag has always been really good about leaving distractions behind. The other night at agility he caught sight of Norton (the horse) out in the pasture next to the agility field (fenced). He stared, I reminded him that we have our OWN horses to look at, and he ignored him. Another time he got distracted when people started arriving for the next class. He has this hilarious way of looking like a little old man peering over his glasses, he puts his head way up and stares out the bottom of his eyes, sometimes leaning to one side. Oh, and the tail is going as fast as it can, but he (usually) remains in a rock-solid stay, then looks back at me. (I credit that to CU.) On the rare occasions we were setting up for a sequence and he broke his stay, I leashed him up and skipped the turn. No attention, no games. He wasn't impressed *


That's one thing I never got into was varying rewards during a session. Like giving a blah reward for ordinary success and then a super one for a really good performance or him figuring out the next step very quickly on his own. He gets a variety of rewards across all sessions (all of them high on his list - never got into rewarding with "meh" rewards - figure if high rewards keep his attention and help him remember the event the best, why not start there? 

Plus, if he's getting the big reward at the start - wouldn't that really get the dog into it and driving to get it again? It's like we know R+ works, but wouldn't R+ (great rewards every time) work even better?

LOL @ Cardboard. That's too funny! Reminds of the dog I saw on here sometime back that liked pinecones.


*I think a lot of dogs would. Tag probably would if I tried it (I'll do that later on tonight). I think it depends on the dogs' experience with shaping. Dude for instance is a shaping dummy, my fault not his. Even if I jackpotted the pantaloons off that dog for the first perfect attempt (if it happened by chance), more than likely he would sit and stare at me willing me to click again. Things that are important to me is what I tend to jackpot. For the first 2 years of Auz's life, he was jackpotted for lying down. Dropping when I say it (NOW, not get comfy or take 5 more steps) is so important to me with that dog (he's on the farm off leash a lot) is the most important thing, so it was rewarded heavily, and he got really, really good at it. He's never been good at straight sits because I didn't train it that aggressively. Tags contacts are very important to me (for safety reasons...don't want a dog his size with those little hollow papillon bird leg bones) diving off the top of the A-frame as an experiment. It's a very rare thing that he isn't given at least 2-3 treats on a contact, so perhaps I jackpot more than I think! I tend to jackpot the most when it's a positional thing...jackpot for downs, jackpot for fronts, heel position, contacts, agility pause table, etc...it's easy for me to keep feeding rapidly while they're in position, and immediately stop the flow of food when he breaks.*

Yeah, I can see why they work. That's just a behavior I'd go on shaping. (c/t every step until he's traversed it, then do it again 10 more times lol). One less thing for him to think about and since my voice is about as charged as the clicker, I'd probably use them the same way ("say good, but as a reward marker as much as a "keep going").


*I loaded 'good' to mean 'that's gonna earn you a treat...later' with Tag because of rally and agility. I know I couldn't use it in the comp. obedience ring, but in rally (where you can praise) and agility where you can talk, I figured it would be a good idea. If he hesitates on something, or is lagging in his heeling, saying "good" brightens him up and gives him extra "courage", if you will. I don't usually use it when he's lagging because I don't want to teach heel to mean "lag...hear good...find position", but I use it in any step towards the right direction, and he falls into place 99% of the time. It works for us *

LOL - I hear that!

*My bad. Tag says 10,000 now. LOL!*_


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Never. One of the basic tenants of learning theory is...behavior reinforced is behavior repeated, and...behavior that is not reinforced is behavior that is extinguished. So, really, you should never fade the reinforcer. But I understand this isn't your question. I would fade the food reward for an alternate rienforcer (or if you prefer the Dunbarism, "life reward") once the dog responds to the cue at a rate that I deem acceptable. What is acceptable to me is dependent on the behavior, its cost, and value in the grand scheme of things. For example, recall is one behavior I want to always highly reinforce...play dead, not so much.


well said as stated here (that other vid i posted had me reviewing some of dunbar's vids)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ8A0Spotys


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