# Well the neighbors Am Bull and APBT got a......



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Cat..... 

I did not go over but Merlin was trying to eat through the chain link....

Cat jumped over the fence...

I was told it was not a pretty scene... Neighborhood is a bit worked up.

The could end up as an episode of cops.


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## Khloe (Jun 29, 2011)

Well, that sucks.

Curious - was it a stray or someone's pet? Were the dogs properly contained?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Khloe said:


> Well, that sucks.
> 
> Curious - was it a stray or someone's pet? Were the dogs properly contained?


Dogs were in a fenced yard.....

We do not know on the cat.... We are thinking it belongs to a new family that moved int. Someone went to ask them. I came inside. 


Its all on the cat.


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## Khloe (Jun 29, 2011)

Ah. I guess you take the chance of things like this happening when you let your pets roam. Sad for the cat though.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Just another reason why cats shouldn't be allowed to freely roam outside. 

Though,It is sad for that cat.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Here is a story(true)-- coworker had a pair of black dogs (giant schnauzers)-- well he was having repair work done on the house and Contractor called him in a panic-- the dogs had some sort of incident they were covered in blood.... Coworker left shift in a rush to drop them off at the Vets -- vet calls back, well there is not a scratch on your dogs and its is not their blood.... He (coworker ) later said well, over the next few days dogs pooped out clumps of Black fur and bones.... seems they must have killed and eaten.... a black cat...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I wouldn't be able to keep a cat killer :-/ I know it's "natural" for the dogs, but that's a deal breaker for me.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I dont see how a dog would know the difference between a cat or a rabbit or a squirrel if it never met a cat before. dog owner shouldn't get in trouble , it came into a fenced in yard. if anything the owner of the cat should get a slap on the wrist for letting their cat wander around. not the owner of the dog. its sad the cat died but thats really on the responsibility of the owner not the cat or the dog. same if your dog or cat gets hit in the road and killed. owners responsibility. as sad as it is.

we had a Husky that was one of our clients dogs. They lived in a community that did not allow fences and he would frequently escape. Well one day he escaped into a yard where a girl had rabbits for her 4h project well  rabbits dont pull through wire mesh fencing very well.....the girl was obviously distraught. the animal control warden didnt know what to tell them...obviously the owners of the dog got a fine but the rabbit owners kept saying the dog was vicious. The warden cracked a smile talking to me about the story..cause she said the dog was just so happy with its accomplishment it had no idea he was a bad dog that day. She said when they caught Brisk ( the husky) he was so happy with himself it was hard not chuckle at the situation. Mean vicious dog and all


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I wouldn't be able to keep a cat killer :-/ I know it's "natural" for the dogs, but that's a deal breaker for me.


That seems like a sad reason to get rid of a dog if you had your dogs properly confined. Roxie would absolutely kill cats if she were bigger, but they usually win the fight. To me that's the same as saying you wouldn't keep a squirrel or rabbit killer. It's all the same to them.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It's the same to them, not to me. I have a cat. I love cats. May seem like a sad reason to you, but I just wouldn't be able to do it. I'd never feel the same about them


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I have had cats all my life and I like them quite a lot too. All my cat-killer/cat-chaser dogs except one have been able to tell the difference between strange cats and cats that belong. I don't want them to kill the cats, but I also don't think stray cats belong in my yard. I can't just drop my best friend for something that comes naturally to them.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I wouldn't be able to keep a cat killer :-/ I know it's "natural" for the dogs, but that's a deal breaker for me.


Well this owner would be upset..... Merlin and the Hell Bitch were out back when this went down. They raised a ruckus which drew me outside. I brought them in and walked around to the other street to see what was going on. 

He was talking about taking the dogs and having them put down. I was like you are crazy, you DON'T want to do that. That is what dogs do....

That cat had to have gone through my neighbor to the south's yard. It jumped the fence to the left.... If it had jumped to the right it would have come in my yard....

The end result would have been the same.. 

And I have cats.... I cannot exactly explain it... But my ACDs differentiate between "their"cats and other cats. 

And.... When I met Melissa, I had a long time foster (needed the perfect home) that was a confirmed cat killer. She was with me because of killing multiple cats. She did fine with Melissa's cats. 

I have used my cats more than once to teach a dog to live in peace with cats. Ours are good because they do not know to run from dogs.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Many dogs seem to know the difference between their cats and outside cats. My dogs are cat chasers but not cat killlers.They treat my cat well but outside cats are a big chase game to them. but I had a dog before that would kill any critter outside. He was a killing machine for any critter. Rabbits / mice / chipmunks/ raccoons/ opossums/ birds. ( he never caught a cat but he tried!) but inside the house he would be a completely different dog to any animal. HE would kill birds outside. but not birds inside. Rodents outside but not rodents inside. Most of my dogs have that sort of a similar boundary in their head and I dunno how they reason it out in their simple dog minds but they seem to know the difference.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Without getting too deep....

Dogs by definition would be apex predators. 

Domestic cats would be mid tier predators. 

Predators take out the competition should the opportunity arise.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I wouldn't be able to keep a cat killer :-/ I know it's "natural" for the dogs, but that's a deal breaker for me.


I hope you choose breeds with very low prey drive than


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Sad for the cat, but unfortunately, a consequence of letting them free roam (if that's the case). 

My grandma had a Siamese cat that loved to be outdoors, but they always leashed her up to let her enjoy the outdoors a bit while we were out there. One day, the back door got left open and she went out exploring, unfortunately into the neighbor's yard with German Shepherds. They attacked and killed her. The GSD's owner came running over, crying, with a dead cat in her arms, asking if it was Brandy. I was just a kid and it was horribly upsetting, I'll never forget it. The dog was later put down for other issues as well, but my grandma never 'blamed' the dog. She blamed herself for allowing the cat to get loose. Was very sad tho.

Jackson is very 'reactive' to unknown cats. His chase instinct very much comes out, though I don't think he'd ever 'go in for the kill'. But he lives with my dads cats perfectly fine. Will of course chase them on occasion and get excited. But I wouldn't 'blame' him if a strange cat came wandering in our yard and something happened. I wouldn't ever think he was wrong, in any way. To me it's no different than a rabbit coming into the yard.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

My past Malamute mix killed a stray cat in the yard,We just kind of pretended it wasn't her who did the damage. She was on a tie out and when I was breaking up the fight between that cat and our male cat it ran right at her. She shook than dropped him,the cat ran off into the brushes. We couldn't find it until two days later at his last breath with internal damage. She was very high prey driven and could not be trusted with our own cats and small animals once she hit maturity. Especially if the cat was gotten after we got her,she would be obsessed.

I do believe if the dogs where on their own property they should not be punished no matter how sad it is for the cat and the owners of the cat.

At least with Raggy and the Newf they would be tolerant of cats they knew well enough. I wouldn't say they had that desire to kill others,but more of to chase and bully them.


My sisters rabbit was killed by a Pit mix and GSD mix that broke into it's cage as well.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I hope you choose breeds with very low prey drive than


I have GSDs, I'm good, thanks  May not be what people want to hear, just being honest (heaven forbid). Everybody has their hard limits.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

It's taken work but Eko doesn't attack our cat anymore. He grew up with Johnnycakes but he used to attack him on sight.


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

Xeph said:


> It's the same to them, not to me. I have a cat. I love cats. May seem like a sad reason to you, but I just wouldn't be able to do it. I'd never feel the same about them


I feel the same Xeph. Even though cats can be considered prey to dogs, all the dogs I've owned have seemed to know the difference between cats and other prey animals. Maybe they grew up with cats and therefore respected them, but I also don't know if I'd be able to keep a dog who killed my cat or had the potential to kill my cat .


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## BasenjiMomma (Feb 4, 2013)

One of my dogs growing up got a hold of the neighbors cat. I remember being so scared that our dog had killed it, we ran and called our mom who had us tell the neighbors. I remember the neighbor lady lying and said she had watched our dog pull the cat off the fence (trying it make it our fault, and not theirs for not having their cats inside) I still feel bad that our dog got the cat, but there was nothing we could do.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Kyndall54 said:


> I feel the same Xeph. Even though cats can be considered prey to dogs, all the dogs I've owned have seemed to know the difference between cats and other prey animals. Maybe they grew up with cats and therefore respected them, but I also don't know if I'd be able to keep a dog who killed my cat or *had the potential to kill my cat* .


Any dog large enough with teeth has the "potential" to


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

My dogs differentiate between my cats and strange cats, or even cats I tell them to leave alone (except Aleu)

Troubles has grown up with cats. He really likes them unless we say 'Go home, cat!' and the fight is on, and bad as it sounds, its hilarious to watch him puff up and chase cats. He could never kill one, but he's fast and loud enough to scare them off, so I use him for strays or neighbor cats I can't stand.
Diesel will sometimes chase cats if he's loose, but it's a rule he's not supposed to. Most of the time he will give it a good thought but decide against it. He's really good with my cats, but there are 3 down here he knows for a fact I don't like and don't want here, and he tries his best to keep them run off.
I truly feel Aleu would maul a cat if she got hold of it. It has been a long journey teaching her to leave Drae and Killian alone.

If my dogs were to kill a stray... I would feel bad but... If they killed a cat I knew, I'd be primarily afraid for their safety. I don't know what the cat owners would do.

If they killed one of mine, they're gone. I will always have cats and dogs together and if I know for a fact a dog doesn't tolerate cats, I won't bring that dog into my life. If I don't, I will spend many hours teaching impulse control and teaching the dog to leave the cats alone and the cats to leave the dogs alone. But if after all that that dog still wants to kill my cats... it's just not going to work. Here lately it seems Aleu has forgotten to leave them alone, so we're going back to training, but if I come home one day and my cats are dead, she's leaving. I will make a valiant effort to find her a good home, but I don't think I could keep a pet that kills my other pets. 


As for these two dogs... they don't need to be put down, but if the owner is uncomfortable because of it... maybe he should rehome them. But lets consider their breeds for a moment. Even if it's just dogs killing cats, it's an Am bully and an APBT. That is all people are going to see.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

I love cats and grew up with cats, but I couldn't hold this incident against the dogs. The cat entered their yard, and they reacted in a way that seemed appropriate to them. Just like I couldn't be mad at my dogs for catching and killing a squirrel or chipmunk or rabbit in their yard. I love all animals, and would be heartbroken to see even a dead squirrel, but the dogs aren't at fault.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Any dog large enough with teeth has the "potential" to


Kind of like saying any person with a knife (or a gun) has "the potential" for murder. But having the physical hardware doesn't necessarily mean the person (or dog) has the software to go in for the kill.

Plus, I'm pretty sure a JRT could take down a cat...

I also feel that its not the dog's fault. A dog is a dog.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Bae would have gleefully mauled and eaten our cats. They just look and act too much like prey. 

I will not own a dog and cats together with known cat prey drive. Bae could have seriously injured one of the cats if someone was negligent and left a door open. Thankfully, he was well managed most if the time and the cats are fast. There were a few times where a cat almost lost the race but I'm pretty quick too. Living with a probable cat killer and cats was stressful on me and the cats. The cats moved out and Bae was rehomed to a house with NO cats. 

If he had killed a stray cat or someone with a roaming cat whilst the cat was on our property, sorry kitty. You picked the wrong yard. Outdoor cats take the risk of being hit by cars, getting beat up by other cats, getting injured by other wildlife, and getting eaten by Bae Dog. 

I already knew he was a cat killer. I would not try to put him in a situation where a cat would be. But if he is outside and kitty is outside and in reach of his tie out... Chomp.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

It is sad for the cat, but that's about what would happen if a cat landed in my yard when the dogs were outside. 

Couple years ago, I was outside with Chester and he was on a tie-out. One of the neighbor's multiple outdoor cats (all fixed at least) leaped from the fence down into my yard right near Chester's head. He had that cat by the neck in a flash and was shaking it side-to-side. I whacked him on the rump and he dropped the cat out of surprise and it lived. Neighbor told me that it was the cat's fault for jumping into my yard and even if the cat was hurt, he didn't blame me. 

Most of the foster dogs would go after a cat in the yard/outside. Chester's killed a squirrel and a bird (out of midair!) and a snake before. Eva's killed a squirrel. I'm not going to let them harm a cat on someone else's property or in someone's house but it also isn't my responsibility to prevent free roaming cats from entering my yard where they'd be a risk from the dogs.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

ANY dog has the potential to kill a cat. Potential as in capability. Now, whether they act on it is another story. I don't let me cats outdoors due to predation and cars. I wish everyone that had cats would be as cautious of their safety as most dog owners are.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Xeph said:


> I wouldn't be able to keep a cat killer :-/ I know it's "natural" for the dogs, but that's a deal breaker for me.


I am sorta with Xeph on this-- although its limited to OUR cats-- we love our kitties and it would be very difficult to look at my dog (I am looking at the giant schnauzer, of my 3 on this) if she had killed one of ours-- could she yeah, and she chases them, but I have seen her pounce (and is reprimanded for it) but she doesnt do the kill bite, she pounces and then lets go (not often, they are country cats and fast)...
But an unknown cat, yeah maybe she would kill it but I would be able to live with that...(maybe cause we have worked so hard with all the dogs to Not Kill, I am not sure what they would do to most non predators these days).... 2 of the dogs have killed some of our beloved chickens, and we just worked with them, over time to Not do that....


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Eko grabbed my cat in mid air and threw him to the ground when the cat was jumping onto a table. Once they got into a fight in the kitchen and Eko got a pretty deep gash on his leg from the cat biting him, I was horrified when I ran into the kitchen it looked like a murder scene. Blood all over the floor, his leg, the cat's face. I had him on a leash pretty much 24/7 in the house and in his crate if I wasn't home, and finally about 5 or six months ago I felt like I could trust him around the cat. He will still jump up if the cat starts running but Johnny (the cat) never runs. He is 8 years old now, very, very mellow, as long as the dogs aren't bothering him he could care less about them. Johnny killed one of my hamsters once, it was when he was about 1 year old, I was at work and he knocked the cage down and somehow got it open. I was very upset, everyone was but I still couldn't blame him, so for me, I am not sure if I would rehome Eko if he killed Johnny. I hate to even think about it, I would be devastated, but to me it would be just too painful to loose Eko too.


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## misswolfy (Jul 13, 2013)

I will never own cats again for this reason. I have several cat killers at my house. It's just how they were, even when one was raised with two kittens. Any owners of cats who don't keep them contained and they wind up in my yard? It's not the dogs fault but irresponsible cat owners. It sucks, but even with tons of training No cats will be in my home ever.. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My 8 lb dog has been on a killing spree of rodents lately. It is gross and kind of disturbing but it is just what they do as predators. She is very quick and efficient from what I've seen. I have no doubt that if she was bigger cats could be fair game. She does love my dad's cat though but wanted to chase her at first. I never trusted her around my chinchilla. I think she could seriously maim one. My other dog has no interest in any prey at all.

People should keep their cats safe on their property if they don't want to risk it getting killed by dogs, a car, etc.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

That is how I got J,, she ripped her owners old cat off a post trying to get away from her... and that was the final straw... J's not a cat killer she didn't know the difference of prey drive this or that... For the OP it is sad for the Cat but wouldn't hold it against the dogs in the fenced in yard .. I always try to have a cat around so the dogs learn to understand, but I wouldn't expect all dogs to get it or all owners to see the need to train it ..


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

One of my shelties got in a knock-down drag-out fight with a neighbor's cat that jumped our fence. Luckily my dad was right there and grabbed the cat by the scruff. Nikki probably could've killed it. She hated cats with a passion. Our neighbors at a different house had a big old mean himalayan cat that stalked Nikki when she was a little 3 lb 5 week old pup and I don't think she ever forgot. Hated them ever since. 

Nikki also almost killed our hamster.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

When I was a young teen our two gsd/lab sisters with the help of our NSDT/collie killed a small grey kitten that was in our back field. Felt horrible for my brother as he was with them and couldn't get three dogs off.

A few years later I had a kicking drag out with the three of them over a fluffy orange adult in one of our barns. He lived to tell them tail, but it was insane how these quiet dogs who has lived with cats their entire lives (indoor/outdoor cats which they we ALWAYS fine with) turned into killers...pack mentality I guess. 

I couldn't hold it against a dog for killing an outdoor cat, but if they wanted to eat MY cats inside they would most likely have to go. I can't put my cats who I am responsible for in jeopardy because of the addition of another animals. (although it would be a high level of management until I could personally adopt the animal into a cat free home with a clause they come back to me if they are ever to be rehomed).


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Susie always like the cat and they used to lay out in the sun together. He died last summer and I doubt I will get another. He was the barn cat for ten years.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

Our cat escaped about a week after we moved into our current house. I was terrified that the neighbor's dog would get him. He doesn't have front claws so can't climb or defend himself well. But he came back late that night unharmed. It turns out the neighbors dogs are friendly to cats, but you still never know.

It drives me crazy when people let their cats roam around freely. Especially since they tend to be attracted to my flower beds and garden.

Our dog is a cat chaser, but not killer. I wouldn't mind at all if she chased cats off our yard. But she's big enough that she could easily kill one by accident. I wouldn't blame her.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Very sad situation. My Mom's GSD gets along fine with our indoor cats but any outdoor cat (or squirrels or rabbits or anything small and non-dog) is prey. She would definitely kill a stray cat if given the chance. I understand how Xeph feels about it. We know it's natural but I don't know how I'd feel if our GSD killed a cat. I imagine I'd feel worse if it was one of OUR cats. That said, I wouldn't give up a dog if it killed a stray/outdoor cat but if it turned on one of our indoor cats, I'm not sure what I'd do. It really depends on the situation.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

If the cat is friendly and is ours or is at least 20 feet from us he will ignore or even be affectionate towards it.

If the cat is huffing up,growling and the like than that brings the worst out of him. 
I don't think he has the intention to kill,but he could hurt a cat. He's gotten more used to my grumpy cat so he mainly just stands their and huffs at her. Other cats including my parents grumpy cat he would obsess more over.

My own cat-vs the grumpy outdoor black cat that was hard to avoid at my last place. The thing is is that I want some prey drive in a dog,it ads to drive when catching a frisbee and the like. I just know prefer my prey drive in a dog to be more like my Rott or the Newfie,at least the Newfies main prey drive was towards birds and he did kill one. I`m not a bird owner so it doesn't matter much to me.
For now unless I get a fence I don't see myself owning a dog with as high as prey drive as my Malamute/GSD mix,I still want a dog that can tolerate my own cats most of the time. I love Malamutes but their prey drive and roaming instinct makes them not the best for me right now.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Well that is what happens when you let your pet out to roam unattended. Hopefully the dogs will not be deemed vicious or the owners forced to get rid of the dogs. That would be sad for all the families involved. It just irks me when cat owners think their cat has to be outside roaming free. So many dangers for that poor cat to face on its own.


what is the ordinance for cats at large?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Well that is what happens when you let your pet out to roam unattended. Hopefully the dogs will not be deemed vicious or the owners forced to get rid of the dogs. That would be sad for all the families involved. It just irks me when cat owners think their cat has to be outside roaming free. So many dangers for that poor cat to face on its own.
> 
> 
> what is the ordinance for cats at large?


Against the law in this county..... No enforcement, never will be... we have a feral program that conflicts.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And other than most of the toys and some of the non sporting breeds, we are kidding ourselves...

Under the right or wrong circumstances most any dog will take out a cat. 

Might not even be the dog that initiates the conflict.


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## RoughCollie (Mar 7, 2011)

Where I live, the only law about cats is that they get rabies shots every year. I do my best to protect my neighbor's many cats from my dog. If Aidan did kill one, I would be very sad about it and probably horrified, but I would not blame him or myself. Aidan has a high prey drive, and the cats are trespassing when they come over here to visit him.

Cats get no protection, it seems to me, except directly from their owners.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Any dog large enough with teeth has the "potential" to


Yeaaaah, by that logic you shouldn't have any large dogs. All dogs have prey drive to a degree, there's always the potential that seeing a cat run could trigger that. Roxie didn't start showing serious prey drive until a couple years ago. It took Faxon at least a month to show she was interested in chasing the rabbits; before then she simply laid there with them, but one day she up and decided to give chase when one jumped off the bed. Any of your dogs could decide to chase or kill a stray cat one day, but I can't see you following through with your blanket statement unless you really value a stray cat's life over your bond with your dogs. My mom's ex-boyfriend's husky attacked a kitten and I had to sit there as a kid with this bleeding kitten, all by myself, as my mom was out. I didn't hate him.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yep I have four cat killers and I hate to say it but I would tell the neighborhood to suck it, because if my dogs are properly contained in my yard and something comes inside, whether it be a cat, ****, rabbit etc ... They are in their own.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> Here lately it seems Aleu has forgotten to leave them alone, so we're going back to training, but if I come home one day and my cats are dead, she's leaving.


Is she loose in your home with the cats while you're away? That seems dangerous. My dogs are only 9lbs and 18lbs and I don't leave them loose with the cats when I'm not here. They are normally great with the cats, but occasionally a cat will run and the dogs will chase -- Cas even got excited and nipped at Lily and pulled a chunk of fur out of her back the other day. I don't trust any dog when I'm not there to intervene (and I don't trust the cats not to take a swipe at a dog's face and scratch an eye, either).


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

That is really really sad that you would set her up for failure by leaving her alone with them and then get rid of her for doing what's natural not only to dogs but is a breed trait.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

I agree with Xeph. Thankfully, though, my dogs grasp that the critters INSIDE are okay, but anything outside is fair game. At one point in time I had 6 rabbits and three cats, and my two dogs were completely ok with them (the youngest grew up with them, the older dog had never been around them until I adopted/bought the cats and rabbits.) They're not even bothered when my cats zoom through my apartment.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

gingerkid said:


> Kind of like saying any person with a knife (or a gun) has "the potential" for murder. But having the physical hardware doesn't necessarily mean the person (or dog) has the software to go in for the kill.
> 
> Plus, I'm pretty sure a JRT could take down a cat...
> 
> I also feel that its not the dog's fault. A dog is a dog.


I never said a JRT wouldn't but i am sure a Chihuahua would have a hard time.

All i am saying is that a large amount of dogs would take on a cat, even if they have been great with them before, to think otherwise and to blame a dog, for being a dog, is wrong in my opinion


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Yeaaaah, by that logic you shouldn't have any large dogs. All dogs have prey drive to a degree, there's always the potential that seeing a cat run could trigger that. Roxie didn't start showing serious prey drive until a couple years ago. It took Faxon at least a month to show she was interested in chasing the rabbits; before then she simply laid there with them, but one day she up and decided to give chase when one jumped off the bed. Any of your dogs could decide to chase or kill a stray cat one day, but I can't see you following through with your blanket statement unless you really value a stray cat's life over your bond with your dogs. My mom's ex-boyfriend's husky attacked a kitten and I had to sit there as a kid with this bleeding kitten, all by myself, as my mom was out. I didn't hate him.


What are you talking about??? Why shouldn't i own large dogs? I KNOW my dogs WOULD kill a stray cat in an instant i am not denying that  AT ALL


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> What are you talking about??? Why shouldn't i own large dogs? I KNOW my dogs WOULD kill a stray cat in an instant i am not denying that  AT ALL


That was aimed at Xeph lol


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

My neighbor's Chocolate Lab has killed dozens of cats over the past 9 years. That dog passed a few months ago, I wasn't sad to see him go. I assume that they cats in the neighborhood are resting a bit easier now as well. My useless dogs lay out in the backyard as stray or loose cats make their way through our yard. They don't even give chase but they live with a cat too so, I assume they just see it as a potential friend? Who knows, I guess this is why they are working dogs and not sporting. ha ha

I have no doubt that if they felt threatened, they would protect themselves but thus far, they just do not show a killer instinct. Well, there have been a few people that lurk around that have turned my normally precious babies into very alert and threatening dogs.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Poor cat, but unfortunately that's one of the risks you're taking when you leave your cat outside. Other risks being getting run over by a car or getting killed by some other predator. 

I'm glad Mike's not a cat killer, though he will chase if given the chance. It's just the excitement of the chase he likes though, once the cat stops he's scared to come too close. 

My mom's cat is loose inside the house with three dogs. They know to respect the cat though; when the dogs were younger, the cat used to sit in the door opening just waiting for them to try and pass him. When they did, he'd whack them in their faces. _Don't you dare mess with me,_ he was probably trying to convey.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

That's a shame... but don't let your cats wander outside. 

I can't see my dog killing a cat. We have 3 that predate him, and he'll chase them a bit sometimes, but he's never acted like he does with squirrels and rabbits and things. We visited my sister's once and she has a cat and it hadn't ever seen a dog before and it was freaked out, hissing, walking on tiptoe sideways. Hamilton didn't know what to do! He just kept backing up, barking at it. Probably doesn't help that he's shorter than a cat.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Sydney and Pneumo get along very well, even though Syd has some nasty wounds on her face she's getting looked at today when I go into work from his teeth. Despite them getting along so well, I would still never trust Syd with Pneumo in the house alone, so any time we are not home, or are sleeping - Pneumo is locked in his own room. Safe for all involved. I don't know how I'd feel if Syd attacked Pneumo.... but I know for sure I would blame myself if it happened.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

My cat likes to be outside. He will howl and spray and poop everywhere if I don't let him out. It works for us.


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## misswolfy (Jul 13, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> My cat likes to be outside. He will howl and spray and poop everywhere if I don't let him out. It works for us.


Just don't be upset when he gets hit by a car or eaten/attacked by something. Because it will happen if you let him out loose. Why not get a long lead and let him explore safely or build an enclosure outside that keeps him safe? Whether you own dogs or cats, there is No excuse to let them roam free... Dangerous, irresponsible, and they always become a pest. I know quite a few people who will trap dogs or cats that get let to roam often and turn them into the shelter... 

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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

My dogs are only okay with "brave" cats, if you act like prey you get treated like prey in their eyes


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> My cat likes to be outside. He will howl and spray and poop everywhere if I don't let him out. It works for us.


Have you ever thought of putting her long lead, & harness? It is more work, but it can prevent him from getting hit by a car,getting attacked by animal,getting diseases,among other things. . I'm not saying that doing will prevent her from getting sick, or hurt, but it does diminish the chance.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I wouldn't put a leash on him, he wouldn't have any part of that... And I would be afraid of some dog or something attacking him and he can't get away. He is 8 and has been an indoor/outdoor cat since he was 3, he is very smart and knows how to stay out of trouble. I have seen him walking down the sidewalk down a main street 3 or 4 blocks from our house, so he knows to stay away from cars. Every cat I've had since I was a kid has been indoor/outdoor and none of them got hit or attacked by a dog or anything. I know it happens, though. He usually goes outside to lay down in the sun or just sort of wanders through the neighborhood, he's in more than he's out as he gets older. We only let him in or out when he asks, sometimes he will spend a couple days inside, sometimes a day outside.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Our cats have a window open for them at all times.... One doesnt come cept for every 3rd day to stuff himself at the self feeder.. They keep our rodent population down, and the wild birds now steer clear of the chicken yard.....

But, we do live on a busy road (our 2 acres abutts this)-- on kitten was killed this way, thankfully in front of the other one (sibling) -- so the remaining kitten now steers clear of the road.... the older cat, well I do worry about coyotes etc..... but its part of the bargain-- freedom and country life (which they LOVE, the oldest spent 3 years in a condo in the city)..... for the risk it entails....


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Kayota said:


> That is really really sad that you would set her up for failure by leaving her alone with them and then get rid of her for doing what's natural not only to dogs but is a breed trait.


Call it whatever you like, but I've had cats and dogs loose together my entire life and never dealt with one killing a cat. Or even bothering a cat.
I live in a box and if I shut her away in one room, she destroys it. She destroys everything, including crates, unless she is lose in the house. If I lock the cats in one room, they will fight each other non stop. 

I've put too much time and effort into teaching her impulse control. She has proved many times so far she knows better. If can control herself while I'm here, or right down the road, I expect her to do it while I'm gone, and if she can't, someone without cats can have her.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'd be worried about predatory drift (which isn't an impulse control thing), and I agree that you're setting her up for failure. That's too bad.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

In this specific situation, i feel bad for these dogs, both of these breeds SHOULD NOT be trusted around cats period, i do not care how "nicely" they seem to get along,i own a cat, and when i am out Dyno is in his crate, and Scruffy is in her room. And if Dyno ever decided to hurt my cat, it would NOT be his fault, it would be mine for bringing the cat into my home,and for not watching closely enough. God forbid what would happen to these dogs if they started fighting EACH OTHER SMH.. I can't stand when people get either one of those breeds with no consideration for their breeds traits...You own a PIT BULL and an AMERICAN BULL DOG, and you are "surprised" it killed a cat? Come on now


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## Gogoclips (Apr 27, 2013)

I have a friend with a husky whose neighbor's cat from down the street hopped the 7 ft fence into her yard. The husky killed the cat and the neighbors took my friend to court. Her dog had to wear a bright orange collar that said DANGER for a couple of months and was fined a hefty fine. It was not the dog's fault at all but my friend paid the price. ): My dog's breeder had cats, but he had no exposure to cats when he came to live with us. When we took him to my FIL's place when he was about 5-6 months, we were afraid he was going to chase the cats, bring a sighthound and all, but they had a grumpy old cat who got a good swat in and he's been very cautious around cats since.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Against the law in this county..... No enforcement, never will be... we have a feral program that conflicts.


I was asking more for the dog's owner than the cat. If this went to court and all and if the dogs were to be deemed dangerous if there was a cat ordinance. I feel the owner of the dog's would have a better chance for a little to no punishment if there was a cat at large rule.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Any dog large enough with teeth has the "potential" to



Any dog and if more than one dog size no longer matters. My Chihuahuas could cause some damage especially as a group. When an animal is being attacked by two or more it is that much harder for the lone animal to defend itself. Also, if the animal has previous practice sessions and the other one did not the trained one has a better chance at winning. 

I do agree it is not the dog's fault.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Gogoclips said:


> I have a friend with a husky whose neighbor's cat from down the street hopped the 7 ft fence into her yard. The husky killed the cat and the neighbors took my friend to court. Her dog had to wear a bright orange collar that said DANGER for a couple of months and was fined a hefty fine. It was not the dog's fault at all but my friend paid the price. ): My dog's breeder had cats, but he had no exposure to cats when he came to live with us. When we took him to my FIL's place when he was about 5-6 months, we were afraid he was going to chase the cats, bring a sighthound and all, but they had a grumpy old cat who got a good swat in and he's been very cautious around cats since.


that is crazy that your friend and the dog got charged was that in OR? Here in CO a gal got charged because her cat was off leash and the cat was in a wheel chair in her unfenced front yard with her standing there.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> I was asking more for the dog's owner than the cat. If this went to court and all and if the dogs were to be deemed dangerous if there was a cat ordinance. I feel the owner of the dog's would have a better chance for a little to no punishment if there was a cat at large rule.


Nothing civil or criminal is going to the dogs or owners.

Dog gets a free ride in his own yard against an animal in this county and state. Fence does not really even apply depending on the county. Could have been a dog, horse etc. Controlling factor here is the dogs took it out in their yard. 

Case law to back it up. 

Keep in mind that coyotes take out cats on a fairly regular basis.... Seems to happen in a cycle.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Our cats have a window open for them at all times.... One doesnt come cept for every 3rd day to stuff himself at the self feeder.. They keep our rodent population down, and the wild birds now steer clear of the chicken yard.....
> 
> But, we do live on a busy road (our 2 acres abutts this)-- on kitten was killed this way, thankfully in front of the other one (sibling) -- so the remaining kitten now steers clear of the road.... the older cat, well I do worry about coyotes etc..... but its part of the bargain-- freedom and country life (which they LOVE, the oldest spent 3 years in a condo in the city)..... for the risk it entails....


Yep totally agree my cat loves the freedom, he would be miserable in the house or on a leash.


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## Khloe (Jun 29, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> Call it whatever you like, but I've had cats and dogs loose together my entire life and never dealt with one killing a cat. Or even bothering a cat.
> I live in a box and if I shut her away in one room, she destroys it. She destroys everything, including crates, unless she is lose in the house. If I lock the cats in one room, they will fight each other non stop.
> 
> I've put too much time and effort into teaching her impulse control. She has proved many times so far she knows better. If can control herself while I'm here, or right down the road, I expect her to do it while I'm gone, and if she can't, someone without cats can have her.


Wow. smh.
Rehome her before your cats are hurt.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Sarah~ said:


> Yep totally agree my cat loves the freedom, he would be miserable in the house or on a leash.


I'd rather my cat get used to being indoors than be dead, but you know.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Kayota said:


> I'd rather my cat get used to being indoors than be dead, but you know.


I think if he was going to be killed by a dog or a car it would have happened by now. After this long I feel he knows where and who to stay away from, there are risks but there are risks inside my house and risks with putting him on a leash outside.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i wish it worked like that, but i had a very street smart cat disappear around 9 or 10 and she had been in perfect health. and she wasnt the only one. we had tons of cats disappear. it just isnt that simple.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Another threat to outside cats: cat hating people. 

I do confess; our cat has always had access to a cat door or an open window ever since he was 9 weeks old. He's 15 now and still going strong. When he was younger he was an adventurous cat, proudly bringing back mice and birds, but he got more conservative with age. Nowadays he rarely wanders beyond the yard.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

My family through the years had always had outdoor cats. About half were fine and the other half were run over by cars, killed by coyotes or a dog, and one was (from what we suspect) killed by our neighbour. We now strictly keep our cats indoors with the exception of one of our male cats who NEEDS (according to him) to go outside. It tears me apart knowing that he might die out there. And what makes me feel even worse is that I KNOW he terrorizes our neighbours and poops in the children's playground (talk about embarrassing and unsanitary...) I do my best to keep him inside but my family is less vigilant about it.

Interestinly enough, if my dogs SEE our male cat outside or if he bolts into the backyard, they will give chase and if they caught him, I imagine they'd do damage. But if he's in the house they don't even bother him...


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Our neighborhood is pretty cat friendly, most of the houses have a bowl of cat food on their porch. We have a lot of stray cats here, even more than loose dogs, and out of the many many cats I've seen, I've only seen 2-3 dead cats around. I'm not going to pretend there aren't more somewhere I can't see but stray cats do pretty good out here. No, it's not as simple as I make it sound but it's not as simple as others make it sound, either, my cat is well fed, has medical care whenever he needs it, a soft, warm place to sleep, attention whenever he wants, and he gets to go outside whenever he wants. He gets to chase birds and rodents, and like I said he is miserable cooped up inside all day. He will spray all the walls, scratch up the doors, windows, walls and furniture, and poops on the rug in front of the door. And the noises he makes! He meows SO loud, nonstop, and if you just ignore him and walk past he will follow you, howling the whole way. I'm not saying every cat should go outside but I feel confident that I have given my cat a very good life and I just don't agree that anyone who lets their cat outside is being totally irresponsible or a bad owner.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Outdoor cats drive me nuts. I hate them howling next to my windows. I hate waking up to find dead animals dropped off on the porch in the night. They used to poop in our flower beds all the time or walk all over the cars. I've seen outdoor cats get accidentally trapped in a neighbor's car and tear it up. I've also seen them get inside other peoples' houses. We've found dead cats in our yard- probably from coyotes. I see cats hit by a car all the time lying dead on the road.

The double standard with cats astounds me. NO ONE would allow their dogs to run amok and damage peoples' property and kill lots of wildlife.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Cats seem like such throwaway pets to some people compared to dogs. If someone came on here saying they let their dog run loose everyone would be up in arms.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Cats are very strange animals, aren't they. At least when compared to dogs.

I can't help but think that some people are just not cut out for responsible cat ownership, so why they keep cats at all remains a mystery to me. Perhaps it would be best if they took a pass and left it up to individuals who can provide for them, properly.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Honestly, there are some cats that just go insane indoors no matter what an owner does to try to enrich their indoor environement. I say this with no hyperbole whatsoever, I've seen it a handful of times over the years. And for those cats, the risk of death (euthanasia) from living indoors is as high as any risk of living outdoors because they exhibit a lot of displacement behaviors that people just can't live with. 

As for "cat killers"... for stray cats, why we preach that dogs can't even generalize a simple command like "sit" in multiple locations without practicing in multiple locations and then turn around and are shocked that they don't differentiate between a stray/loose cat in the yard vs. their friend cat in the house perplexes me. It's pure human moral projection to think they should know the difference. And anyone who has pet dogs and cats together, with ANY dog, is taking a calculated risk with everyone's safety. Most of the time we're all very lucky. Sometimes, someone isn't. They're dogs, not robots.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

If I had a cat that acted insane indoors I would figure out a way to make an outdoor enclosure for the cat to hang out in sometimes and work with the behavioral problems instead of risking my pet's death.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well good luck with that. After you've tried all that stuff and the cat is STILL an anxious mental basket case, get back to me.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Honestly, there are some cats that just go insane indoors no matter what an owner does to try to enrich their indoor environement. I say this with no hyperbole whatsoever, I've seen it a handful of times over the years. And for those cats, the risk of death (euthanasia) from living indoors is as high as any risk of living outdoors because they exhibit a lot of displacement behaviors that people just can't live with.


My friends had a cat like that. He was a stray that they took in and dealt with for several years. Holy terror. He was miserable but we were urbanites and he was a fully indoor cat. Eventually, he ended up going to live on a farm owned by my friend's father and he is a very happy barn cat now that will fight any animal (except the horses of course) that crosses his path. His dad says the cat is the best mouser ever. 

Not everyone knows someone with a farm that can provide a relatively safe outdoor life for a nutso cat. I like that there is a barn cat placement program at the humane society here but there are only so many barns even here in horse and farming country. 

I dislike having the outdoor cats around my neighborhood, we have a lot of them, but at least they are nearly all fixed (free program here) and the law says that if a stray cat comes on my property and gets attacked by my dog who is in his own yard, the dog is not at fault.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Outdoor cats drive me nuts. I hate them howling next to my windows. I hate waking up to find dead animals dropped off on the porch in the night. They used to poop in our flower beds all the time or walk all over the cars. I've seen outdoor cats get accidentally trapped in a neighbor's car and tear it up. I've also seen them get inside other peoples' houses. We've found dead cats in our yard- probably from coyotes. I see cats hit by a car all the time lying dead on the road.
> 
> The double standard with cats astounds me. NO ONE would allow their dogs to run amok and damage peoples' property and kill lots of wildlife.


I agree! if someone came on here and said my dog just loves to play in traffic, cross the street on his/her own, take walks around the neighborhood by themselves, we dogforumers would be up in arms saying to have better ownership and train the dog. Now if it is a cat. oh well

Plus exposing your cat to such diseases as FeLV and FIV just so the cat can go outside. I have had both kinds of cats indoors and outdoors and a combo. I live out in the country. Coyotes, cars, hawks, cat-hating people and even one of my own dogs ( now deceased) have wiped out my outdoor cat population. I got tired of going to the door and thinking I heard the cat at the door and finding nothing. Sometimes the cat did come back and sometimes it did not. Sometimes I was lucky and found the carcass and sometimes I did not. it was too did not that started me to re-think cat ownership. The last straw was when I found one of my cats near a coyotes den. Some of her fur was still there and her skull with some hair on it. The bones around the den could have been hers and I am sure other critters who met the same fate as her. I always hoped she was dead when the pups practiced their hunting techniques on her and tore her apart. That she did not suffer too long before she felt no more pain. That day I re-examined my thoughts on cat ownership. Animals depend on us for their safety and well-being, it is up to us being the smarter one to provide them with as safe as possible life and if we are not up to the task to not own animals.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

All our cats are fully vaccinated and FeLV and FIV free (they came that way from the shelters/ SPCA) as well as fixed-- luckily we have a LGD and 2 territorial other dogs that keep the varmits (including coyotes and bear) at bay at our property line-- we have loose chickens and very small goats out too-- so all the livestock are depending on the dogs (we dont have guns) for protection-- and they do a good job. I understand the cats take their chances outside of the property line-- so far so good, and they have a good life here with us... Even our 17 year old condo cat back in the city would climb down THREE flights of metal fire escape stairs down to the garden (not in her later years but for the first 12 years of her life) to have outings daily-- I tried blocking it off, and then when I watched her dangling by a paw to JUMP down to the next level of stairs, I took down the barrier (it was safer for her to use the stairs).....


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

My parents live on acreage (145 acres of it) and our cats have always been indoor/outdoor. We have lost some over the years, but risk vs reward in that situation means they are allowed outside to do as they wish. Some of them tend to stay inside more and others (like Monty) prefer to be out as much as possible. 

I live within city limits now and while lots of people tend to let their cats run free outside, I believe the risk is too high here (kids, cars, known foxes/coyotes in the area that aren't afraid of people) plus one is 18 and declawed. No claws = no outside. If we ended up in a different place with different cats we might change our mind, but these two are indoor for life.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> All our cats are fully vaccinated and FeLV and FIV free (they came that way from the shelters/ SPCA) as well as fixed-- luckily we have a LGD and 2 territorial other dogs that keep the varmits (including coyotes and bear) at bay at our property line-- we have loose chickens and very small goats out too-- so all the livestock are depending on the dogs (we dont have guns) for protection-- and they do a good job. I understand the cats take their chances outside of the property line-- so far so good, and they have a good life here with us... Even our 17 year old condo cat back in the city would climb down THREE flights of metal fire escape stairs down to the garden (not in her later years but for the first 12 years of her life) to have outings daily-- I tried blocking it off, and then when I watched her dangling by a paw to JUMP down to the next level of stairs, I took down the barrier (it was safer for her to use the stairs).....



http://www.vetstreet.com/care/feline-leukemia-virus-felv-vaccine
http://www.vetinfo.com/fiv-vaccine-recommendations.html 

I personally do not care if you let your cats run loose. I just wanted to show some information for you and others who think that your cat is FeLV and FIV free. The trouble with the FIV vaccine is that your cat will always show positive for FIV. It is good to vaccinate your cat but you should be aware it may not take care of all the strains of FIV and your cat could become an active carrier of FIV; Now most shelters do not give this vaccine nor the Felv/FIV vaccines because they are not consider 'core' vaccines. These vaccines require a series of shots to be active in your cat. 

The other side of vaccinating your cat with the FIV vaccine is that your cat will show positive and could be euthanized at a shelter due to the positive result. Now I doubt yours will end up at the shelter but someone else who lives in the city and reading these posts may not know this about the vaccine. A thought to consider is having a tag on the cat saying it was vaccinated for FIV. 

It is recommended if your cat is at high risk by being with other cats than annual testing is recommended along with vaccines. Vaccines should be given after a negative results, http://www.vetstreet.com/care/feline-leukemia http://www.vetstreet.com/care/feline-leukemia-virus-and-feline-immunodeficiency-virus-testing


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree with sassafras that some cats do go insane indoors no matter what their owners do, and I can understand why people let those cats outside. It's better than euthing them or rehoming them. I had a cat like that myself -- we tried our hardest to keep him in, but he would door-dash constantly and he knew which family members were the worst at blocking him. When he was about five years old, he got hit by a car and his back end was mangled. He wasn't killed instantly, and my dad had to pick him off the road and wrap him in a blanket. He wouldn't let any of us kids see, but I guess it was pretty awful (it made my dad cry, and he never cries).

As for people whose cats would be fine indoors but who think cats need to roam for whatever reason -- I find it hard to have sympathy for them when their cats get killed. I just can't anymore. One of my big-city friends lost her cat recently; he got hit by a car near her place and animal control called to let her know (he was chipped). She thought he was "too smart" to get hit by a car. Another friend's older cat was recently killed as well -- she was an indoor cat her entire life, and then my friend bought a house and started letting the cat go outside. Didn't last long. Cars, wild animals, loose dogs, poison, cat-hating people... you just have to understand that you're putting your cat at major risk letting it roam free, just as you would be if it were a dog. Cats that live long outdoor lives are the exception, not the rule.

And people who declaw their cats and then let them roam outside? I want to punch those people in the face.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> I agree with sassafras that some cats do go insane indoors no matter what their owners do, and I can understand why people let those cats outside.


People never seem to believe it until they meet or have a cat like this. Cats that overgroom themselves to the point of self-harm, or fight constantly with other pets in the home or become aggressive towards people. Or mark all over the house or destroy furniture. And people who have exhausted literally every option for trying to help them... they're not common, but they're out there, and they're miserable being kept indoors.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Fat Albert was like that. He litterally tried to break through a window and successfully broke Many screens. He lived to be around 6 or 7. Sadly he came in contact with poison and didn't make it. He passed last summer. He was the best cat ever except for he would go nuts inside. He would be okay inside at times and he was a great "puppy teacher" he taught the dogs boundaries. If he couldn't get out he would meow until you let him out. My current cat,Casey is allowed outside on leash but she prefers it in the house. She is a great cat but let's Mia get away with too much,lol. I miss Albert and I do feel guilty for what happened but honestly he would have killed himself to get outside and had injured himself getting out. Outside was more enjoyable for him. I got him when he was 5/6 weeks. After he got strength my dad made me keep him in the garage. He had straw,food,water and a litter box. Finally when he was close to 1 my dad allowed him in the house. But he liked if better out there. It was just his safe zone. 

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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I agree! if someone came on here and said my dog just loves to play in traffic, cross the street on his/her own, take walks around the neighborhood by themselves, we dogforumers would be up in arms saying to have better ownership and train the dog. Now if it is a cat. oh well
> 
> Plus exposing your cat to such diseases as FeLV and FIV just so the cat can go outside. I have had both kinds of cats indoors and outdoors and a combo. I live out in the country. Coyotes, cars, hawks, cat-hating people and even one of my own dogs ( now deceased) have wiped out my outdoor cat population. I got tired of going to the door and thinking I heard the cat at the door and finding nothing. Sometimes the cat did come back and sometimes it did not. Sometimes I was lucky and found the carcass and sometimes I did not. it was too did not that started me to re-think cat ownership. The last straw was when I found one of my cats near a coyotes den. Some of her fur was still there and her skull with some hair on it. The bones around the den could have been hers and I am sure other critters who met the same fate as her. I always hoped she was dead when the pups practiced their hunting techniques on her and tore her apart. That she did not suffer too long before she felt no more pain. That day I re-examined my thoughts on cat ownership. Animals depend on us for their safety and well-being, it is up to us being the smarter one to provide them with as safe as possible life and if we are not up to the task to not own animals.


same here! I used to have a BB gun for cats that were a bother, it was a weak one (a cheap daisy one that wouldn't break a human's skin, a couple of bad experiences like that and they didn't come back.

here, even in the city, the law is similar to the laws in shell's area, if an animal comes into your yard, (cat or dog, or whatever) your dog can not be held at fault if the offending animals is attacked. here the land owner isn't even required to render aid if they don't want to


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> And people who declaw their cats and then let them roam outside? I want to punch those people in the face.


Slim's previous owner did that. He'd spend all morning outside killing rodents and sunning himself. When I got him (at 16 years old, two years ago) he asked a lot to go out, but even if I had been somewhere safer for him to go out it wouldn't have happened...he goes out in our fenced backyard with me very occasionally to sniff around the grass. He's not so interested now. 

The country vet back home used to have a huge grey tom who was front declawed and she thought it was fine letting him out. Not sure what ever happened to him.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> People never seem to believe it until they meet or have a cat like this. Cats that overgroom themselves to the point of self-harm, or fight constantly with other pets in the home or become aggressive towards people. Or mark all over the house or destroy furniture. And people who have exhausted literally every option for trying to help them... they're not common, but they're out there, and they're miserable being kept indoors.


Yeah, we had a cat like that when I was a teen. He was a great cat, but a terrible pet . I guess, what else can you do? It's the nature of the beast. But he lived a long and healthy life and died of probably cancer so it didn't affect his lifespan at all. If he had been killed by a dog or a car I would have been sad but it would have been better than killing him because he couldn't stay inside.

People who have free-roaming farm dogs will argue just as strongly about their dogs' right to roam free so yes, that is a thing with dog people.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

When I was young, my cats wanted to go out. My mom would pull out the car, close all the doors in the garage, and the cats were allowed to go out and check things out a bit (under supervision). I'd also take them out on lead sometimes.

They had a great time sunning themselves, playing with crickets, etc. But they were played with safely. We never had any door dashing cats, but I do know of the kind who just CANNOT live an indoor life.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have two hard core Outdoor cats.... 

It is not about them going outside.... It is about the amount of stimulation you provide....


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

No one here would approve of sticking a dog outside just because it had behavioral problems so I'm not really understanding why a cat is any different.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

One of the cats I have now was supposed to be euthed because she was considered feral and she was pregnant. I have soft spot for Siamese cats and she happened to be one. I just could not euth her that day. I had the syringe filled and I just could not do it. Instead of plunging the needle in her, I plunged my hand in my billfold and went up to the office to pay for her. She was supposed to be a barn cat. some feral cat she turned out to be. Instead, after a month she managed to jump a 4 foot privacy fence, go thru a doggie door and another cat door to the basement. She has never left the house again after this. I know she is special because what cat would not use the dog door to get outside.

She is just the opposite. She was supposed to be an outdoor cat but she decided not to be an outdoor cat and wanted to be an indoor cat. As far as being feral, turn on the dryer and she will be your best friend as she lies on top of the dryer.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> No one here would approve of sticking a dog outside just because it had behavioral problems so I'm not really understanding why a cat is any different.


This
too short


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not talking about cats who have "behavioral problems". I'm talking about cats who are mentally ill.

It's ok... nobody ever believes in them until they have one or meet one, and nothing that normally works for a "normal" understimulated cat works for them. You can believe me that I've met some and have believed the owners have tried ALL the things that normally work, or you can think I'm lying or exaggerating. It's just the internet, it won't change the taste of mustard if you believe me or not.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kayota said:


> No one here would approve of sticking a dog outside just because it had behavioral problems so I'm not really understanding why a cat is any different.


Cats and dogs have always had different kinds of relationships with humans. Cats are just barely domesticated; the cats we know are genetically identical to Little African Wildcats. I'm not really defending it because I do think tame cats should be kept inside whenever possible, but outdoor mousing is the reason cats were originally encouraged to hang around humans, and it's difficult to overcome thousands of years of instinct. It's only, what, maybe 50 years that cats started being kept indoors? Not even that really. Many may have been _allowed_ indoors in the past but _keeping_ them indoors is a very recent development.

I think a lot more dogs would have behavioral problems if they never got outside .


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> http://www.vetstreet.com/care/feline-leukemia-virus-felv-vaccine
> http://www.vetinfo.com/fiv-vaccine-recommendations.html
> 
> I personally do not care if you let your cats run loose. I just wanted to show some information for you and others who think that your cat is FeLV and FIV free. The trouble with the FIV vaccine is that your cat will always show positive for FIV. It is good to vaccinate your cat but you should be aware it may not take care of all the strains of FIV and your cat could become an active carrier of FIV; Now most shelters do not give this vaccine nor the Felv/FIV vaccines because they are not consider 'core' vaccines. These vaccines require a series of shots to be active in your cat.
> ...


Wow that is good info! I wish they had explained that to me (I bought the "Kitten package" from 1 vet and he did not mention that giving them the vaccine changes their Negative status-- all our cats were tested as new kittens prior to the vaccine...)... that said the feral cats we used to have a couple of years ago now seem to steer clear of our yardage (d/t the dogs I think).... (I kinda wonder if they needed it to begin with)...


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't care if people let their cats outside as long as they don't have close neighbors. However if you live in a neighborhood where the houses are relatively close together then I think it is disrespectful to your fellow neighbors to let your cats roam outside. I totally love cat poop in my garden NOT. And I don't want your stupid cat getting my dog worked up in my yard. Your cat is free game to him. And if your cat is in my driveway and not smart enough to move, I may just run it over (not really but I'd like too)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> I'm not talking about cats who have "behavioral problems". I'm talking about cats who are mentally ill.


 Eh. . .the cat we had wasn't in any way mentally ill. Well, I guess he would have been if we tried to keep him inside . But allowed outside he was a cool, confident, laid-back dude. It was just more like, hmm, trying to make an Alaskan lumberjack be happy with a desk job in NYC, I guess, LOL.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> I'm not talking about cats who have "behavioral problems". I'm talking about cats who are mentally ill.
> 
> It's ok... nobody ever believes in them until they have one or meet one, and nothing that normally works for a "normal" understimulated cat works for them. You can believe me that I've met some and have believed the owners have tried ALL the things that normally work, or you can think I'm lying or exaggerating. It's just the internet, it won't change the taste of mustard if you believe me or not.


If it's that bad why can't they build an outdoor enclosure to keep the cat safe?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kayota said:


> If it's that bad why can't they build an outdoor enclosure to keep the cat safe?


 Do you think a cat who isn't happy indoors will be happier with a cage outdoors, being able to see everything and not get to it? Ours would not have been. Plus, do you know how secure an enclosure needs to be to keep a determined cat in? A secure cover over the entire thing, dig-proof floor, no gaps anywhere. The jump/climb thing and small size and ability to get through small spaces make it very difficult to contain a cat who really wants out. It can/does work for some cats but not all. I imagine it would take something like the Pallas Cat enclosure at the zoo to keep them securely comtained but something like that would cost at least $20,000 I'm sure.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Do you think a cat who isn't happy indoors will be happier with a cage outdoors, being able to see everything and not get to it? Ours would not have been. Plus, do you know how secure an enclosure needs to be to keep a determined cat in? A secure cover over the entire thing, dig-proof floor, no gaps anywhere. The jump/climb thing and small size and ability to get through small spaces make it very difficult to contain a cat who really wants out. It can/does work for some cats but not all. I imagine it would take something like the Pallas Cat enclosure at the zoo to keep them securely comtained but something like that would cost at least $20,000 I'm sure.


You could build such a cage for a fraction of that. 
You could build a cage the quality of a zoo scaled down for a domestic cat, still for a fraction of that.



But its wasted..... From what I see, people fail miserably in providing cats with stimulation.... That can be done indoors.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well that's true enough. A lot of people prefer their cats to be pillows that eat (and barely put up with that). And I think environmental enrichment would work for most cats. But I still think there are some cats who would not be satisfied with anything indoors, or being confined outdoors, unless the enclosure was huge and had trees and long grass and stuff.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Cats running around on MY property is a nuisance, keep your cat under control on YOUR property or don't have the cat simple as that.. If someone couldn't control their dog or ANY other pet for that matter and keep it off of other peoples property do no have the animal...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Watching that show "my cat from hell" and as someone who has never owned an indoor cat before, I was surprised to learn just how much car cats required.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Well that's true enough. A lot of people prefer their cats to be pillows that eat (and barely put up with that). And I think environmental enrichment would work for most cats. But I still think there are some cats who would not be satisfied with anything indoors, or being confined outdoors, unless the enclosure was huge and had trees and long grass and stuff.


I was told I would NEVER keep this cat inside.... He never asks to go out. 











Same thing with this cat.....











She never asks either....

Both cats get to hunt every day...... And their hunts are successful 100 percent of the time.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Like live prey hunting or enrichment-type simulated hunting? Someone on my cat forum gave her cat a live mouse every day. . .


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Like live prey hunting or enrichment-type simulated hunting? Someone on my cat forum gave her cat a live mouse every day. . .


I have done both......
Mostly hunting games..... Windup string toys... but ALWAYS with a food reward.....


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Cats running around on MY property is a nuisance, keep your cat under control on YOUR property or don't have the cat simple as that.. If someone couldn't control their dog or ANY other pet for that matter and keep it off of other peoples property do no have the animal...


I have put out the SPCA live traps to keep cats out of my vegetable garden and I don't care how many owners get mad at me. I keep my cat either inside or harnessed on my property, she is not contaminating people yards, food supply, killing, getting killed, or digging up stuff. If a person can't keep their cat off my property then they will have to prepare for lots of trips to recover their cat from the SPCA and tonnes of fines for feline on the loose charges.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Like live prey hunting or enrichment-type simulated hunting? Someone on my cat forum gave her cat a live mouse every day. . .


I can't even begin to explain how much live feeding for ANY animal (snakes, lizards, ferrets, etc) frustrates me. It's like baiting to me. I've watched several of our previous outdoor cats paw and mutilate live rodents like toys. I have this one specific memory of our orange tabby chewing the legs off an injured vole and then tossing it in the air, batting it around. Then getting up and leaving it to die. Cats aren't swift killers if they don't want to be. 

I wonder how many stir crazy cats would benefit from a large enclosure or properly fenced in backyard?
http://www.catsofaustralia.com/cat-enclosures.htm#.UwGRrvldWSo I've wanted to do something like this for a LONG time. 


























I don't think it's fair to others to have cats free roam in a tight knit neighbourhood. As I stated before, our male cat is a nuisance and I wouldn't be surprised if someone's tried to shoot him before.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, I want to make an enclosure after I move out to the acreage. It'll need a full cover because of owls so I don't really know how big I can make it. I need to do more research. That top one is awesome.

No, I don't like live feeding either. It seems unfair since the prey animal has no chance to escape.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have no problem with live feeding.... Keep predators that can be part of it.
At one time I had in excess of 100 snakes, including some venomous, plus lizards...

Heck I have had tarantulas and frogs that ate rodents.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I have several snakes and a few large carnivorous lizards and feeding live rodents to them would be a massive hassle. Not to mention I've seen some NASTY bites that large rats can inflict on large snakes. They do not go down without a fight. 

That said... I'm not going to get into a live feeding debate for undomesticated animals/exotics (reptiles, wild cats, weasels...). I've been in so many and it's exhausting and I know many wild caught specimens don't take to pre killed food. However, cats nor dogs nor ferrets don't require live feeding for enrichment. These animals aren't always swift killers and the prey animal often suffers. I equate setting rats loose in an enclosed area to rat baiting. Which is illegal.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I have several snakes and a few large carnivorous lizards and feeding live rodents to them would be a massive hassle. Not to mention I've seen some NASTY bites that large rats can inflict on large snakes. They do not go down without a fight.
> 
> That said... I'm not going to get into a live feeding debate for undomesticated animals/exotics (reptiles, wild cats, weasels...). I've been in so many and it's exhausting and I know many wild caught specimens don't take to pre killed food. However, cats nor dogs nor ferrets don't require live feeding for enrichment. These animals aren't always swift killers and the prey animal often suffers. I equate setting rats loose in an enclosed area to rat baiting. Which is illegal.





Hunting rodents with terriers for pure sport is common. 


And over the nearly 30 years I kept snakes I fed a combination. of live, pre killed and thawed. Snakes get torn up when people leave them unattended with a rat in the cage. But like everything else, it is about being responsible.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Hunting rodents with terriers for pure sport is common.


I'm not talking about hunting wild rodents with terriers... Anyway, I'm stopping here. I really hate having this debate.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Yes, those are the kinds of enclosures I was talking about and I don't see why a cat would "go crazy" being confined in one. They'd be safe and outdoors.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

But they're still confined. It's much like a dog with severe separation anxiety. Any confinement makes things worse, not better. And cats CAN be trained, but they are much harder to work with. Less motivated to work with humans, and finding rewards for them that are high enough value can be exceedingly difficult.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Then feel free to let your cat get killed or sick or injured... That's your prerogative.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I have tried those mouse toys that run across the floor, cat nip, those poles with feathers on the end of strings, balls, any cat toy I can find. I don't know what else to do (not setting mice loose in my house, yuck) when I play with him and he will stop to go try to jump through a closed window, smashing his head into it repeatedly and claws me up when I try to stop him. And those pens are nice but like Xeph said it's still confinement, I can just see him pacing along the fence, chewing on the metal, howling, etc. My neighbors have no problem with my cat, they leave food out for him and have told me they do that, so in my case I feel I am not wrong letting my cat outside. Sounds like my situation is not normal for most places but it works for me and has for a long time.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> But they're still confined. It's much like a dog with severe separation anxiety. Any confinement makes things worse, not better. And cats CAN be trained, but they are much harder to work with. Less motivated to work with humans, and finding rewards for them that are high enough value can be exceedingly difficult.


If I had a cat that was so hellbent on getting outside to the point of causing injuries to itself, I would likely rehome it to a farm setting. Away from neighbours and busy streets. I don't think it's fair to the neighbourhood to allow my cat to dig/eliminate in their gardens, chase away/kill birds from feeders, and terrorize fellow indoor cats (I hate when cats come to our house and attack our windows to piss off our indoor cats) and so on... Angry neighbours scare the crap out of me... A couple days ago, there was a case where an outdoor cat was shot in the head 17 times with a pellet gun and lived. This happened not too far from where I live. Scary stuff.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kayota said:


> Then feel free to let your cat get killed or sick or injured... That's your prerogative.


It's. . .weird, my feelings on it. I know it's not ideal, but it's that or the cat getting killed, sick, or injured from not being able to be indoors. Sort of a catch-22 I guess.

I'm betting you wouldn't be on board with someone keeping their dog inside 24/7. But that's what happens to most housecats.

And, haha, rehome to a farm. Farmers have cats. Plenty of them because they don't "waste" money spaying cats. They do not want more cats, and especially not cats who are not accustomed to living in a rural setting, because they usually end up dead pretty quick. In general, anyone who tells you they sent their cat to live on a farm either dumped it without the farmer's permission (in which case the cat was probably killed) or is lying, like your dad saying your childhood dog "went to live on a farm".


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

You don't have to keep the cat indoors 24/7 to be responsible. There are ways that don't put the cat at risk.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I have mixed feelings about letting cats outside. It's all I've ever known, our cats were allowed outside and lived to old age, just like our current cat. And while we live in a city, I suppose by American standards you can't really call it urban living. It's more like a quiet suburb or something. 

People keeping their cat indoors is practically unheard of, though I know people with purebred cats do it more often--because those are the types of cats that are at risk of being stolen. 

On the one hand I know what the dangers are of allowing cats outside: getting run over by traffic, getting killed by dogs or cat-hating people, in some cases being stolen--though I doubt anyone would bother with a common European shorthair. 

On the other hand I can count the times I've seen a cat as roadkill on one hand, for all the 21 years I'm alive. Our cats have shown enough sense to be able to deal with the outside world and have lived to old age, our current cat still being alive. Cats walk loose everywhere, it's the norm. I don't have any issue with cats roaming outside either. The only issue I have with them is when they poop in our yard--but since we got a dog that problem disappeared. 

So while I KNOW what the dangers are, I'm still inclined to allow the cat outside, when the time comes that Nextcat arrives.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I care less about the danger to the cat than i do about the annoyance to other people and the threat to native wildlife and domestic pets


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I care less about the danger to the cat than i do about the annoyance to other people and the threat to native wildlife and domestic pets


Yep. That.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I care less about the danger to the cat than i do about the annoyance to other people and the threat to native wildlife and domestic pets


Maybe this is just me. But I would be seriously disturbed if one of my dogs caught and killed a neighbor's cat. I would be emotionally distraught. 

Please keep your cat safe so I don't have to be completely wrecked when my dog* mauls your cat. 

Neither of my mom's cats desire to be outside. Woody has been out and killed some voles but he prefers to hunt the mousey inside. Littlest Kitty was declawed by her former owners then left out in the December winter. All as a 6 month old kitten. She also wasnt spayed? Since starving outside for some time, she hasn't had any inclination to go back out. 

*Merlin is cat safe but Bae was not in any way, shape or form.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I care less about the danger to the cat than i do about the annoyance to other people and the threat to native wildlife and domestic pets


Maybe this is just me. But I would be seriously disturbed if one of my dogs caught and killed a neighbor's cat. I would be emotionally distraught. 

Please keep your cat safe so I don't have to be completely wrecked when my dog* mauls your cat. 

Neither of my mom's cats desire to be outside. Woody has been out and killed some voles but he prefers to hunt the mousey inside. Littlest Kitty was declawed by her former owners then left out in the December winter. All as a 6 month old kitten. She also wasnt spayed? Since starving outside for some time, she hasn't had any inclination to go back out. 

*Merlin is cat safe but Bae was not in any way, shape or form.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Kayota said:


> You don't have to keep the cat indoors 24/7 to be responsible. There are ways that don't put the cat at risk.


This. I don't understand why allowing the cat time outside has to translate to totally free roaming to do as they like wherever. Most dogs get outside time but the standard (for most cases anyway) isn't to let the dog just go off and do as they please.

You supervise, provide an enclosed area, do leash walks in safe areas (no stray dogs, etc). I agree however that MOST cats don't REQUIRE time outside to be happy and healthy, as long as you provide adequate stimulation inside. We play fetch with Shiloh, she was just to the vet for a checkup and he said she was very well muscled and a good weight. We have cat grass that Kallie loves chewing on by the window.

IMO cats that NEED to be free roaming outside lest they go crazy are about as common as dogs that prefer to be living outside 24/7. They exist, but they're not the norm. It's certainly not something most owners need to do.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My dad has an outdoor cat who is declawed. Well technically he inherited her.... She's 17 or 18 now and been indoor/outdoor her whole life. He also has 40 acres and she just hangs around the shop. My grandpa has a whole colony of feral cats, which is where my dad's cat, Joy, originally came from. My grandpa has 1000 acres and also a free roaming dog. None of his animals leave his property.

It's just a different situation than where I am in a subdivision with people living close together. You still have risk to and from the wildlife but their cats aren't bothering people.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Then feel free to let your cat get killed or sick or injured... That's your prerogative.


ONCE AGAIN, since for some reason this does not seem to be being understood by anyone in this thread except possibly Willowy, I am not talking about "cats" with a capital C. I am talking about a very specific and very small sub-group of cats for whom their behavior is so extreme and their needs are unmeetable any other way that the alternative is euthanasia. 

So yea, the owners of these cats feel free to accept the risks of their cats going outdoors. And given a choice between certain death and possible death, I don't really fault them. 

Again, until you meet one of these cats it's very, very easy to say "oh why don't they just do abc" or "well cats just need xyz." I'm talking about cats who are not normal in the head, and if you ever meet one you'll understand. Until then, judge away, judgy mcjudgersons.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I care less about the danger to the cat than i do about the annoyance to other people and the threat to native wildlife and domestic pets


Cats have been around for thousands of years. In my opinion they're as much part of native wildlife as the birds are. 

And annoyance to other people... well, I can only say to that: we must live in a truly splendid society if we can afford ourselves the luxury of getting annoyed with loose cats. I call that a first world problem. And I don't actually consider it much of a problem.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

My neighbor feeds a colony of feral cats. There must be 17 of them. 

They come in our yard, get into the trash, and are a huge nuisance. I love cats, but I hate these cats. 

My dogs are cat safe, lucky for the neighbor. 

In the summer, we find feral kittens in our trees who have climbed up, but can't get down. We get the ones we can and return them to our neighbor. 

I will say that (maybe) due to the harsh winter we've had, with several days below zero at a time, that the cat population has dwindled. Or maybe she let some of them inside. I don't know. 

Our neighbors have complained about the problem ad nauseum the "crazy cat lady" neighbor's face, but nothing seems to do any good.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Yep. That.


I care about both. I am really tired of cats getting in my garbage, but the one thing that really bothers me is that cats bigger than Roxie have picked fights with her twice and caused her injury while they got away unscathed. THAT really pisses me off. My town has a feral colony that no one does anything about so it's hard to say if they are feral or not, but there are several houses in my neighborhood that have large numbers of freely breeding pet cats, so.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Kayota said:


> I care about both. I am really tired of cats getting in my garbage, but the one thing that really bothers me is that cats bigger than Roxie have picked fights with her twice and caused her injury while they got away unscathed. THAT really pisses me off. My town has a feral colony that no one does anything about so it's hard to say if they are feral or not, but there are several houses in my neighborhood that have large numbers of freely breeding pet cats, so.


Oh I have never had to deal with that AT all (cats are the last thing that messes up our trash-- in the city it was homeless people, in the country its usu our giant size puppy or one of the goats)... and our dogs prevent feral cat colonies from moving in... that would be annoying -- as it is I saw loose cat (not one of our 3) accross the st a few times, but now we have new neighbors there with 2 big labs... so yeah thats not something we have to deal with...


If we had a feral cat issue and we moved in with our dogs, well it would be just like the title of this thread -- they would kill some of them....(well the schnauzer might-- we have been working with her for 2 years not to though--, not sure about the other 2) or at least scare them off...


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Avie said:


> Cats have been around for thousands of years. In my opinion they're as much part of native wildlife as the birds are.
> 
> And annoyance to other people... well, I can only say to that: we must live in a truly splendid society if we can afford ourselves the luxury of getting annoyed with loose cats. I call that a first world problem. And I don't actually consider it much of a problem.


Cats have been proven to damage wild populations of birds,amphibians, reptiles, and rodents tremendously 
It's a problem when they are taking a crap in my veggie garden and teasing my domestic pets, scratching up my outdoor furniture and when i had chickens they were constantly trying to get at them.. If it was a fox i would have the right to shoot it for being such a nuisance


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

> It's a problem when they are taking a crap in my veggie garden and teasing my domestic pets, scratching up my outdoor furniture


Yes exactly!


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I would also like to add that i LIKE having snakes in my yard & i LIKE having birds in my yard, i use to go out of my way to make my yard very snake friendly, i had a small pond that i would stock up with fish and frogs, with lots of tall flowers and grasses, log hides, ect. and i stopped doing this when my neighbors cat had kittens and they kept ALL of them, i was finding dead snakes in my yard or i was catching them stalking or killing them on a semi regular basis, this really bothered me and because of them i do not set up my yard for snakes anymore, and that is simply not fair that I can't have nice things ( LIKE GARDENS)because other people can't control their DOMESTIC pets...
I use to have all kinds of snakes in my yard, and the past two years i have only had Ring neck snakes and this disappoints me greatly


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

In the warm months, there was no keeping our cat inside. He was smart enough to avoid cars/dogs/etc and only wandered into the neighbors yard (they didn't care and were our friends). He was born a stray and bolted out the door any chance he got. He was fixed and had his claws. We weren't going to spend our money on a cat enclosure that he would have escaped anyway (my parents barely had money to get our dogs fixed anyways). We knew the risks, and we were willing to live with them to avoid living in cat urine for the summer (he was a big time litter box avoider). Cats are much harder than dogs to contain. They absolutely crave to be outdoors, unlike my dog. Our other cat was purely indoor only because she didn't desire to be outside. Were we irresponsible? Maybe. After that cat, my parents (and I as well) are never going to own a cat again. 

Feral cat colonies are a whole other bag of a chips. I'd rather somebody's well fed indoor/outdoor cat sometimes walk through my yard than deal with the destructive feral cats that treat my yard like home right now.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

This cat was a stray that i took in, when i first got him did he want to go outside? Sure as heck he did, did he piss and whine to go outside, and throw MAJOR temper tantrums? YOU BET he did, did he try to escape? Sure did. And guess what, after 2months he 'basically' got over it, from time to time he would still whine, and try to escape, and after 4 months he got the point, he gets outdoor exercise on a leash, and gets plenty of play time inside... It's a miracle


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

I would just like to say that this thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I was always on the fence about allowing cats to free-roam, but reading people's excellent reasons for not letting their cats outside/not wanting strange cats in their gardens, I definitely know that my future cats will only be let outside if/when they are closely supervised.

Our current cat was an indoor/outdoor cat for most of her life. My parents have a flat now, with a large terrace, which is idea for her as she can still toast in the sun without risking getting killed by a car or a dog and wiping out entire bird populations, but they used to have a house with a large garden where she was allowed unsupervised. She completely eradicated the colony of moles that made our garden look like the surface of the moon, but also killed many, many birds including newborn chicks, which we would find splattered on the ground after she would bring down their nests. She definitely did a lot of damage to the local wildlife.

It was also dangerous for herself - thankfully she never got bitten by a dog or hit by a car, but our neighbour did trap her into a tiny cage and left her outside in the rain for two days after she walked into his vegetable patch one too many times. She didn't know better and obviously didn't deserve this cruel treatment, but the neighbour also had a right to be annoyed at her. 

The compromise I'm personally most comfortable with is to get an adult, already used to living indoors cat from a shelter; I believe that for the vast majority of cats, living indoors is still preferrable to living in a cage or not living at all.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Did they ever find the owner of the cat in the OP? Was it a random stray or someone's pet? 

Someone's pet- I am sure this was not the first time the cat was out and about but, it was the cat's last venture. I can only imagine what a horrible way to die. Trying to outrun your opponent and not being able to. To be backed into a corner and having to watch and fend off not one but two critters with snarling, snapping, drooling mouths that are taking little bites at you. Trying to do your best at the one thing that it so innate in any animal- domestic or not- to SURVIVE! The cat's sympathetic nervous system is on high alert. This nervous system is the one responsible for the flight or fight mechanism of all mammals. I am sure it tried the flight first when confronted by the dogs and when it knew that was not possible the fight system turned on. How long did the cat try to save itself? Was the death a fast one? Did the dogs pull on the cat like a tug toy? So many dogs do this when they kill something. The cat probably did no damage to the dogs. This cat had probably been outside roaming the neighborhood quite a few times. The cat's ventures taking him/her all over and never had a problem. No longer roaming the neighborhood but the Rainbow Bridge now. If this is ok just to let your cat have a venture outside alone, than ok. For the cat, it depended on humans to keep it safe and the human failed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Did they ever find the owner of the cat in the OP? Was it a random stray or someone's pet?
> 
> Someone's pet- I am sure this was not the first time the cat was out and about but, it was the cat's last venture. I can only imagine what a horrible way to die. Trying to outrun your opponent and not being able to. To be backed into a corner and having to watch and fend off not one but two critters with snarling, snapping, drooling mouths that are taking little bites at you. Trying to do your best at the one thing that it so innate in any animal- domestic or not- to SURVIVE! The cat's sympathetic nervous system is on high alert. This nervous system is the one responsible for the flight or fight mechanism of all mammals. I am sure it tried the flight first when confronted by the dogs and when it knew that was not possible the fight system turned on. How long did the cat try to save itself? Was the death a fast one? Did the dogs pull on the cat like a tug toy? So many dogs do this when they kill something. The cat probably did no damage to the dogs. This cat had probably been outside roaming the neighborhood quite a few times. The cat's ventures taking him/her all over and never had a problem. No longer roaming the neighborhood but the Rainbow Bridge now. If this is ok just to let your cat have a venture outside alone, than ok. For the cat, it depended on humans to keep it safe and the human failed.


They thought they knew who the cat belonged to.... That person never came to view the cat.... Cat got buried... The cat was supposed to be dead showed up the next day... Not appearing any worse for wear...

Now another person has come forward missing a cat that fits that description..... 

There was a knock on my door....

They wanted me to dig up the several days dead cat.... 

I am staying out of it.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

Staying out of this debate, but I'd just like to say those are gorgeous pics of your cat, Adjecyca1!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They thought they knew who the cat belonged to.... That person never came to view the cat.... Cat got buried... The cat was supposed to be dead showed up the next day... Not appearing any worse for wear...
> 
> Now another person has come forward missing a cat that fits that description.....
> 
> ...



Yep do not blame you at all. Thanks for updating.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Yep do not blame you at all. Thanks for updating.


When I get a knock on the door and it is someone from the neighborhood, it means there is something that might need doing that NO one else will do.

I feel like Darrell on the Walking Dead... Everyone makes fun of the ******* until there is a Zombie Apocalypse.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Then feel free to let your cat get killed or sick or injured... That's your prerogative.


Hope you're speaking generally, because that was pretty rude. My cat, by the way, is an indoor cat.

He'll door dash in the summer....I always IMMEDIATELY go out to get him (he stays right around the perimeter of our house). I shake the kibble box, kitty comes running, back in he goes. Sometimes I do put him on a leash though (in a harness) and let him sun himself on the outside edge of our porch

Like this:


















That was after an escape. I took his picture, and then put him back in the house to get him on a leash  I like having live cats.

This particular cat doesn't want to hunt or anything though. He actually gets a bit stressed outside in the grass. He really just wants to be able to sun himself. And I allow him that (again, on a leash).


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Shep said:


> Staying out of this debate, but I'd just like to say those are gorgeous pics of your cat, Adjecyca1!


Thank you he is a sweet boy ^_^ and very active for a kitty cat


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

It's not EXACTLY the same, but my mom adopted a Dachshund who had lived her entire life running free on a farm with other Dachshunds. So when we brought her home she spent hours jumping at the door two feet off the floor trying to get out. We took her out on a harness and in seconds she had worked her way out of it and lived basically wild for THREE MONTHS while we tried to catch her. We knew where she was but luring her close was a different story altogether. Finally we caught her and she adjusted to house life over time despite living essentially feral for months and was a total lap dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Cats do not belong outside..... Well they do but they wreak havoc and get themselves in trouble...

So pet cats need to be inside. 

And I would bet money after Quinn AND Ruby (both pictured in a previous post) that with the proper stimulation and time ANY cat can become an indoor cat. It is just a matter of management and wills. 


Another funny thing..... Willowy and other mentioned barn cats..... And the need for mousers. 
I have been around barn cats my entire life.... They do not have a long life expectancy. A few years.... Some tragedy always seems to befall them.

And cats alone seldom get it done.... A decent Rat, JRT, Patterdale, etc is ten times the ratter that the best of cats is. And I am not knocking cats.... but small game terriers are BETTER at it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And I would bet money after Quinn AND Ruby (both pictured in a previous post) that with the proper stimulation and time ANY cat can become an indoor cat.


Definitely do not agree. Absolutes do not fly in most things in life.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Cats do not belong outside..... Well they do but they wreak havoc and get themselves in trouble...
> 
> So pet cats need to be inside.
> 
> ...


OMG! We agree on something! lol

I will say that my dogs are far better ratters than any cats I have owned. My best ratter is a shep/mal cross and I own a RT and JRT. 

My barn cats usually lived 3-5 years old I did own cats that lived longer but for most it was just a few years. The longest living ones are the housecats. Coyotes just seem to love to snack on cats. Our coyote population has gotten out of hand.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Even though I don't agree with cats being let to free roam, which is probably because, where I live, many people aren't fond of cats, there's coyotes, & that there's a high less then a half a mile from my house.

I wouldn't say all cats can become indoor cats, many can, but not all. 
I love seeing you guys cats


Adjecyca1 said:


> This cat was a stray that i took in, when i first got him did he want to go outside? Sure as heck he did, did he piss and whine to go outside, and throw MAJOR temper tantrums? YOU BET he did, did he try to escape? Sure did. And guess what, after 2months he 'basically' got over it, from time to time he would still whine, and try to escape, and after 4 months he got the point, he gets outdoor exercise on a leash, and gets plenty of play time inside... It's a miracle





Xeph said:


> Hope you're speaking generally, because that was pretty rude. My cat, by the way, is an indoor cat.
> 
> He'll door dash in the summer....I always IMMEDIATELY go out to get him (he stays right around the perimeter of our house). I shake the kibble box, kitty comes running, back in he goes. Sometimes I do put him on a leash though (in a harness) and let him sun himself on the outside edge of our porch
> 
> ...


Both of your cats are are 

I just had to share my cat, & I wouldn't allow my cat to go outside, because of where I live.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Definitely do not agree. Absolutes do not fly in most things in life.




I am the stubbornest person in the world. A person can do anything if they want to.....

I had no less than ten people tell me I would NEVER make Quinn an inside cat. Including my Mother, Father, Sister.... Who KNOW critters, know my abilities, and know Quinn..... Heck everyone that said I could not do it knew everyone involved. Frankly I did not find it that difficult....

And when we got Ruby.... They warned us she came off the street......She had already been returned once and was 18 minutes away from euthanasia when we committed to her. If followed the same protocols I did with Quinn.... Again.... Not that difficult.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Try stomaching out-stubborning a cat who is mutilating itself sometime. Not awesome.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Really not that hard to get cats to like dogs, dogs to like cats and cats that are born in a barn to be indoor cats.

This cat was born in a barn lived its first 3 years outside in a barn and than moved inside and became a house cat. The picture is a few years old but he is now at least 16-17 years old and I doubt he would have lived this long outside.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> OMG! We agree on something! lol
> 
> I will say that my dogs are far better ratters than any cats I have owned. My best ratter is a shep/mal cross and I own a RT and JRT.
> 
> My barn cats usually lived 3-5 years old I did own cats that lived longer but for most it was just a few years. The longest living ones are the housecats. Coyotes just seem to love to snack on cats. Our coyote population has gotten out of hand.



We probably agree on more than we disagree on....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Because something is not hard most of the time, does not mean something is not hard ALL of the time. Because something has not been hard for YOU, does not mean that someone else hasn't tried the things you have tried and they didn't work with their _individual_ dogs or cats. So tired of this crap.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Try stomaching out-stubborning a cat who is mutilating itself sometime. Not awesome.


Can't be much worse than feather plucking self mutilating parrots.... I have rehabbed a few...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> So tired of this crap.


I am as well... Tired of people using excuses rather than working to resolve the problems. 


In any case.... I never said all people can do it... I said the cats can..... The limitation is on the human side...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, I guess my and my client's experiences are completely invalid, then. Or I'm a liar, or exaggerating. Because it's completely impossible that I've encountered the kind of crazy cats I'm talking about. Thanks for the dismissive, demeaning comments... I'm outtie.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Sometimes cats have mental problems, just like people can. I wouldn't tell someone with a legitimately troubled cat that it "can't be that hard" to manage it any more than I'd tell someone with a child that couldn't be controlled even with medication that it "can't be that hard" to manage the child. It wouldn't matter how many troublesome cats or bratty kids I'd dealt with, because it's _not the same thing_.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Ask..... 100 ACD owners.... 90 will tell you, it is a BAD idea to own cats and ACDs...... 

Merlin and Quinn dining on a Cuban Tree Frog.... They get in the house on a regular basis.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Well, I guess my and my client's experiences are completely invalid, then. Or I'm a liar, or exaggerating. Because it's completely impossible that I've encountered the kind of crazy cats I'm talking about. Thanks for the dismissive, demeaning comments... I'm outtie.


You are putting words in my mouth Sas.....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Well, I guess my and my client's experiences are completely invalid, then. Or I'm a liar, or exaggerating. Because it's completely impossible that I've encountered the kind of crazy cats I'm talking about. Thanks for the dismissive, demeaning comments... I'm outtie.


I NEVER meant to insult you or hurt your feelings..... of ALL people on this forum. You would be among the last I would do that to. 

I am not dismissing anything..... I yield that it is possible for a cat to have behavioral or psychological issues that are so ingrained there is little to nothing that can be done.

And I yield to the experiences you have been exposed to in your practice, clinical and professional life. 

And for that I publicly apologize......


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> A person can do anything if they want to.....


Uh...no. See, this is something that really bugs me. "You could walk normally, if you really wanted to!" That's what that sounds like to me, and it IS demeaning and insulting, even if you don't mean it to be.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Uh...no. See, this is something that really bugs me. "You could walk normally, if you really wanted to!" That's what that sounds like to me, and it IS demeaning and insulting, even if you don't mean it to be.


I already apologized to Sas....

And I apologize to you......


I have made and arse of myself all around on this thread. 

I meant (never do) mean to hurt anyone's feelings....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

In general some of my comments.... Especially those comments that spoke in absolutes..... Were in the least overzealous. And frankly wrong. It was wrong of me to post and pus so hard. 

While my opinion remains that most things can be overcome. Speaking in absolutes was incorrect. And it was WRONG of me to do so. 

I meant to hurt no one and meant to hurt no one's feelings. 

For that I apologize.... To everyone.... 

And specifically to Sas and Xeph....


Nothing that is discussed on this forum is worth being hurtful....
I was wrong in my actions and words....


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You're big enough to publicly apologize, I'm big enough to publicly accept. We all stick our foot in it sometimes.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> You're big enough to publicly apologize, I'm big enough to publicly accept. We all stick our foot in it sometimes.


Thanks Xeph


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Johnny, I have a few questions for you on how you would handle this (curiosity over anything else). 

3 year old feral cat that was slowly became used to humans while living outside in the barn. You could pat him, pick him up by the end. Was neutered (asap) and allowed to come wander in the house and sleep. The minute he needed to use the bathroom he would ask at the door. If you didn't let him out he would urinate in anything but the litter box, poop in corners, rip his claws off on the bottom of a door frame, slam himself into glass windows trying to escape out. We tried many different litters, litter boxes, litter locations, but he refused to use a litter box. He hurt himself on multiple occasions (ripping claws, snapped a tooth) screamed like a banshee. Would let you near him when he decided it was time to go out. If you just let him out, he would be calm and come back in the house once he was done mooching around. He didn't want to be a house cat. 

Our cats were barn cats with no neighbours in the countryside who cared if your animals were out (most in fact has barn cats and one has a feral cat population) and we felt that by neutering them, feeding them, and allowing them to come in the house when they wanted that they were getting a better life and if they were left outside with no care. 

Some of our cats (as they got older) became more and more settled with spending the horrible winters inside with quick sunny visits out; but some (like the original Mama-Cat) lived to 21 and was out hunting mice two weeks before she was put down.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Because something is not hard most of the time, does not mean something is not hard ALL of the time. Because something has not been hard for YOU, does not mean that someone else hasn't tried the things you have tried and they didn't work with their _individual_ dogs or cats. So tired of this crap.


I for one have never had problems that I have seen owners have on shows like it's me or the dog and DW like shows or even when I am out in public ... I don't even know how dogs develop problems like that.

It's not like I am the NO 1 world's best perfect dog trainer / owner. I make my share of mistakes, it's all about common sense people :/


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Cats do not belong outside..... Well they do but they wreak havoc and get themselves in trouble...
> 
> So pet cats need to be inside.
> 
> ...


I have a JRT and I can vouch that even at so of 15 and half blind from cataracts, he is a better mouser then the majority of cats I have known. 

And on ppl who let their cats run loose ... EPIC FAIL as an owner I'm sorry, to me it's no different then someone who lets their dog run free because they "can't be contained"


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

If your cat is so crazy that there is no possible way you can keep it without letting it run around free unsupervised, put it down.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I for one have never had problems that I have seen owners have on shows like it's me or the dog and DW like shows or even when I am out in public ... I don't even know how dogs develop problems like that.
> 
> It's not like I am the NO 1 world's best perfect dog trainer / owner. I make my share of mistakes, it's all about common sense people :/


It's too bad that not everyone is as intelligent as you are, I suppose. 

I haven't had problems like the people on those shows, either, but then again, I've owned four dogs in my life. Give me 1000 dogs and we'll see.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> And on ppl who let their cats run loose ... EPIC FAIL as an owner I'm sorry, to me it's no different then someone who lets their dog run free because they "can't be contained"


Didn't you have a farm cat?



Adjecyca1 said:


> If your cat is so crazy that there is no possible way you can keep it without letting it run around free unsupervised, put it down.


Yes, I love killing cats. So much fun :/.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have a JRT and I can vouch that even at so of 15 and half blind from cataracts, he is a better mouser then the majority of cats I have known.
> 
> And on ppl who let their cats run loose ... EPIC FAIL as an owner I'm sorry, to me it's no different then someone who lets their dog run free because they "can't be contained"


1. Cats are MUCH harder to contain than dogs. 
2. Cats are MUCH harder to train than dogs
3. Cats are not as people oriented as dogs (not true for all cats, but you know)
4. Cats do what they want
5. If they decide they don't want to pee in their litter box, it's game over for you and your house. 

Our cat having indoor/outdoor access worked for our situation. Do I recommend it for most? No. I can't even compare dog and cat ownership. They are just, different.

That being said, I agree. We should try our very best to contain our cats. I will not ever get a cat because the one we had destroyed everything and I don't want to deal with that ever again.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I for one have never had problems that I have seen owners have on shows like it's me or the dog and DW like shows or even when I am out in public ... I don't even know how dogs develop problems like that.
> 
> It's not like I am the NO 1 world's best perfect dog trainer / owner. I make my share of mistakes, it's all about common sense people :/


I know a few reasons dogs develop problems like that because I've worked with or had friends working with dogs that are exactly the type of dog that shows up on TV shows like DW. I'd bet a lot of the people on these shows acquired the dogs AFTER the dogs already had problems and are trying to sort through them, although some may have just gotten a wild kinda dog and not known much in the beginning.

Reasons I've personally seen dogs develop major problems (as in, these are the back stories of some of our rescue dogs that I've met or fostered):
Being crated 22-23 hours per day with no socializing. Being locked in a bathroom with his mother and left to die so that the mother dog starved to death and the pup almost starved to death. Being kenneled with no sunlight and no fresh air and no sunlight for a YEAR while someone tossed food in and sometimes hosed out the kennel with the dog still in it. Having their owner die and being kenneled for 6 months and falling into depression. Being locked in a house and abandoned to starve. Being chained in a yard and abandoned to starve. Being in a shelter for 2 years. Being duct taped mouth and feet and chained to a fence to die. 

Every one of those dogs is now rehabbed and living in a home. Some needed a few months of rehab, some needed 2+ years and it is on-going.

I've learned not to judge a dogs behavior harshly when I see them act out in public. Now, I might to a degree judge someone's reaction to their dog's behavior, but not the dog himself. I just don't know what their story is.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Didn't you have a farm cat?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I love killing cats. So much fun :/.


i don't "love" killing cats, but one wouldn't be expected to tolerate other nuisance animals like say a fox destroying my things, why should one be expected to tolerate your cat because she is crazy and you 'have no other choice' besides letting it kill the animals in my yard and destroy my outdoor furniture and gardens?


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

I think if you are choosing to let your cats out to free roam, you have to do so with the expectation that something will happen to them, and be pleasantly surprised at your luck if nothing ever does. My friend had a cat she got from the humane society and its life mission was to get out the door. She would escape out whenever the door was opened, until finally she just accepted that the cat was going out. When she got a second cat, it followed the first. Third cat, same deal. She lives in a quiet neighborhood, and the cats generally didn't roam far from the yard. Her second cat came in one night with blood coming from his mouth - someone had either kicked him or hit him in the face with something, crushing his jaw. She tried to keep him in after that, but he wanted no part of it. The third cat disappeared one day. She assumed it had gotten killed, and about 8 months later got a phone call that some people had her cat.... over 10 miles away. They'd had it for months. They just finally brought it to the vet for something, the vet scanned the cat for a microchip, which it had, and they called her and returned her cat. My friend knew this could happen, though she was still sad when it did. 

My eldest cat made it his life mission to GET OUT when we got him. He was feral. I put a bell on him and had complex "leaving the apartment" procedures. He did get into the hallway a few times, but never out of the building. I would exercise him until he was panting every night so that he'd calm down enough that we could sleep. Over time, he stopped trying to get out. My youngest cat was also a stray who tried to escape for months. We got the harness for him and used to take him out in the yard to play and he loved it, until one day my husband accidentally scared him outside and now he has no interest in going out and I'm fine with that. I think I was able to manage my cats until they acclimated to indoor living, but I can understand how determined cats can be to get out. I am not willing to accept the risk that something will happen to my boys, however, and will not allow them out. 

Cats aren't dogs. They revert back to being feral very quickly and have different survival skills than a domesticated dog. I think letting your cat free roam outside should be a last resort with a realistic expectation of their lifespan outdoors.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> 5. If they decide they don't want to pee in their litter box, it's game over for you and your house.


For those who don't know, this issue is JUST as likely to be *medical* as it is behavioral!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnA4pW33pw <--Hilarious, but useful info


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SDRRanger said:


> Johnny, I have a few questions for you on how you would handle this (curiosity over anything else).
> 
> 3 year old feral cat that was slowly became used to humans while living outside in the barn. You could pat him, pick him up by the end. Was neutered (asap) and allowed to come wander in the house and sleep. The minute he needed to use the bathroom he would ask at the door. If you didn't let him out he would urinate in anything but the litter box, poop in corners, rip his claws off on the bottom of a door frame, slam himself into glass windows trying to escape out. We tried many different litters, litter boxes, litter locations, but he refused to use a litter box. He hurt himself on multiple occasions (ripping claws, snapped a tooth) screamed like a banshee. Would let you near him when he decided it was time to go out. If you just let him out, he would be calm and come back in the house once he was done mooching around. He didn't want to be a house cat.
> 
> ...




Well what I did with both Quinn and Ruby.... I have a bedroom... No carpet...Nothing in it I cannot live without.....

litter box.....food water...etc. We went in there to interact with them. 

Yes....they pissed pawed and pissed and moaned.... But it did not last as long as you think.... Animals, even humans can only stay in a high level of agitation so long... They will eventually calm themselves. That is the thing.... Lots of people give in before allowing them to work through it mentally.... 

Room had hiding spots toys etc. 

Probably a week in the room... Then the door open when we were home. The cats could come out as they chose... We no longer went in the room.....

Within a month both worked their way into being part of the family....


What this does in my opinion.....

1) gives them a safe place to have their tantrums...
2) provides security of a small familiar place..
3) Once the door opens they have plenty of space to roam and explore. 


With us, the other animals, and other things in the form of perches, runs, etc and critter watching stations.... They get plenty of stimulation....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And side note.... This is not an excuse..... But for those that do not go in off topic or FB....

I am having throat surgery two weeks from today that is known to have an extremely painful recovery. 

I quit tobacco last thursday (surgery is not tobacco related)

and I am on a very strict diet.

So I am by my own admission.... a little edgier than normal.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

The two most common vet visits for cats seem to be throwing up and not using the litterbox. 

I know growing up the cat ladies had multiple cats in their house. The ladies worked at the Humane Society and had their house filled with cats. I can remember litterboxes all over their house. Some of these litterboxes had dirt in them. The ladies found that some of the feral cats liked using the dirt to potty in compared to litter There is no law stating you must use litter in the litterbox. The feral cats would spend some time at the ladies house t get tamed before being adopted. 

My first cat that I owned I was guilty about letting the cat outside to roam. I lived in the city at the time and a very busy road 5 blocks away. I thought that is what cat owners had to do. Let the cat roam free to be a cat. I did not have cats growing up and so I just did what I thought was the right thing to do. I can remember going to the neighbors one day and seeing that their cat had a cone of shame on and it's eye was sewn shut. My cat and her cat was fighting outside and my cat took her cat's eye out. She did not blame me or the cat and never asked for me to pay the vet bill. I still thought well this is what happens and still let my cat outside to roam free. I saw many dead cats on that busy street but thought 5 blocks to travel is so far for a cat. Cats do not travel that far and I still let my cat outside because he would door dash and stand by the door meowing till you let him out. It was so much easier to let him out than to hear him meowing to be let outside. 

I just have different views now because I think of all the danger I put that cat in. I see how different I treat the cats I have now compared to that first cat.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> If your cat is so crazy that there is no possible way you can keep it without letting it run around free unsupervised, put it down.












Got not much else to say to that. Though my cat is shocked.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Avie said:


> Got not much else to say to that. Though my cat is shocked.


I don't understand how "my cat is crazy" is an excuse to let it run around and destroy my stuff, if you can't handle your cat you shouldn't have it


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I don't understand how "my cat is crazy" is an excuse to let it run around and destroy my stuff, if you can't handle your cat you shouldn't have it


Oh no, my cat isn't crazy. He's really laid back, but might be that's because he's 15 years old, almost 16. I remember it was much different when he was younger. Like I said before, he was a true adventurer. And yes, he's always had access to outside. 

It's just that the phrase 'if your cat can't live without being outdoors, it should die'... or in general, the 'cats don't belong outside, they should sooner be dead than walk around outside' (not saying anyone wrote this one down, but it's the vibe I'm getting)... really got me itching to make that post. So I did. And it feels so good, because pictures can express so much more than words ever could. Might also be because I love Rage comics, but I thought it fitting. I don't think people 'can't handle their cat' if they allow it access to outside. 

Our cat's the sweetest thing. Well, to me. Recently found out my little sisters are afraid of him because he has claws.  Well yes, cats have claws. That's part of being a cat. Prowling around outside is also part of being a cat, and the way I'm in it now I'm not inclined to deny them that pleasure in the future. I do have a thought of making my yard cat proof, because I'd rather not see my cat flattened by a car and I personally know how annoying it can be to find cat shit in your yard... when you don't have cats. 

However, just because I found cat shit in my yard when I didn't have a dog, does not mean I wish death upon every cat that walks outside and label their owners irresponsible by default.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> My dogs are only okay with "brave" cats, if you act like prey you get treated like prey in their eyes


And this is why my cats and doings do well. The cats were raised by dogs. These dogs (well, the ones we raised) were raised with and by the cats. There's no fear or running anywhere, no chase instinct to be triggered. Outside's another story. The cats have escape routes and I don't leave the household lose and intermingling when we're not around, but I'm gonna be honest:

I would recognize that if one of my dogs killed one of my cats that it didn't make the dog 'bad', but-

No way could I keep the dog. I'm not saying it's right or it's fair, I wouldn't blame the dog, but I'm just not that thick skinned.

Also: 

My cats go outdoors. I recognize that it is at risk to them. They are chipped, they are vaccinated, they are belled, and they are spayed. They are typically supervised out there, but not always. They are clicker trained. They come when I call them, fairly reliably. I have spoken with the neighbors -who also have cats that roam, just to be sure, and law enforcement to ensure I am not breaking laws; I'm not. I recognize that they could be eaten by a dog, hit by a car, or killed by a snake. I'm ... prepared to take that risk. Much like I am prepared to take the risk of my dogs being off leash. I minimize the risks where I can, but in the end I come down on the side of letting them out (or off leash for the dogs) rather than keeping them absolutely safe.

((ETA: And I should add for good measure - I have neighbors, yes, but I don't live in town. I live basically in the middle of the woods. The only neighbors they are going to see or be seen by them have cats that - well, roam a lot more and further than mine did, and were spoken with before we let the cats out to start with. The cats aren't safe, but I'm not annoying the crap out of other people, either.)

My cats, my call. It's different than what others would decide, but that doesn't mean I haven't thought about it, I'm not aware, or I'm stupid.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> My cats, my call. It's different than what others would decide, but that doesn't mean I haven't thought about it, I'm not aware, or I'm stupid.


Favorite quote of the day.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> i don't "love" killing cats, but one wouldn't be expected to tolerate other nuisance animals like say a fox destroying my things, why should one be expected to tolerate your cat because she is crazy and you 'have no other choice' besides letting it kill the animals in my yard and destroy my outdoor furniture and gardens?


Agreed.

For all nuisance animals (coyotes, *****, cats etc ...) the first time I catch them I use the BB gun, but the next time I see them, they get the real thing in the form of a 22. 

Luckily out in the country we don't get many cats (most ppl out here have barn cats) but if someone in the city does have an unruly cat there are inexpensive ways to erect an enclosure outside for a cat who doesn't like being inside or won't learn how to use a litter box. Sorry but "it's not possible"or "game over " IMO is just excuses for its too hard and I am too lazy so if rather let my cat out for others to deal with :/


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> But its wasted..... From what I see, people fail miserably in providing cats with stimulation.... That can be done indoors.



Agree Completely. There are so many things one can do to enrich their cats lives. Most of which are simple and not expensive either. Imagine a totally sedate life with no stimulation. Though it sounds wonderful to most of us for a few days or even just a few hours sometimes, a life time of it would be horrible. Even with the stimulation in my house, my cat finds time to still eat my plants for fun. ha ha They want to keep busy unlike what most people think of them.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Avie said:


> Our cat's the sweetest thing. Well, to me. Recently found out my little sisters are afraid of him because he has claws.  Well yes, cats have claws. *That's part of being a cat. Prowling around outside is also part of being a cat,* and the way I'm in it now I'm not inclined to deny them that pleasure in the future. I do have a thought of making my yard cat proof, because I'd rather not see my cat flattened by a car and I personally know how annoying it can be to find cat shit in your yard... when you don't have cats.
> 
> However, just because I found cat shit in my yard when I didn't have a dog, does not mean I wish death upon every cat that walks outside and label their owners irresponsible by default.


 I own a cat as well, a cat who use to be a stray and he is perfectly content being indoors and has all of his needs met.

Part of being a dog is being outside trying to kill stuff, that doesn't mean i am going to allow my dog to run around outside unsupervised to harass my neighbors and their pets, same goes with my reptiles i am sure they would love to be outside, but that doesn't mean i should let them

How about the fact that i can no longer provide a nice outdoor habitat for the native snakes in my yard because of cats? Or the fact that cats tear up/spray my outdoor furniture REGULARLY. I don't "wish death" upon outdoor cats, i WISH they had owners who would keep them indoors and off my property but if your cat would NEVER EVER EVER be able to live indoors i would rather it be euthed than KILLING the snakes in my yard. Before the cats came i had a very nice garden set up for the snakes, and had a few different species in my yard regularly, now because of the cats i don't have my pond, have a hard time keeping my veggies alive,and have only found ring neck snakes on occasion in my yard. The watersnakes, black racers, ribbon snakes, ALL GONE!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Avie said:


> Favorite quote of the day.


So what you are saying is it's your call, no matter who it effects? Even if your neighbor came to you with concerns and proof that it was your cat causing the damage you wouldn't take shape to do something about it? You would just continue letting your cat outside?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> So what you are saying is it's your call, no matter who it effects? Even if your neighbor came to you with concerns and proof that it was your cat causing the damage you wouldn't take shape to do something about it? You would just continue letting your cat outside?


I actually do agree with this.

My cats, my call - BUT WITHIN THE COMMUNITY WITH WHICH I LIVE. If my neighbors had an issue, I would be making provisions and things happen to keep my cats away from their property. Same things with letting my dogs off leash. I'll make the call to put my cats and dogs at risk based on what I can do to minimize those risks, but my rights to do that stop when the neighbors rights start.

That said, given what I know of where Avie is - this is not a concern. Cats outdoors are an expected and cultural norm. It'd be awfully strange to have someone with an issue with it. It's something that's just done - to the degree that many places won't adopt cats out if they're going to not be allowed outside to roam. The internet's an international forum and it's important to remember that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I'm saying that if someone did take issue with it (as Adjecyca1 does) would you do something about it?


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I am not okay with outdoor cats in the vast majority of situations. Mostly due to impact on local wildlife. But for other reasons already mentioned as well. I get that people have outdoor cats, and I don't knot my panties over it. But. I do not find it acceptable. I will personally have only indoor cats.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I'm saying that if someone did take issue with it (as Adjecyca1 does) would you do something about it?


Me? Sure. 

But the majority of people in *this* country have indoor cats. If someone here had an issue with you keeping your cats indoors all the time would you do something about it? THERE IS a cultural component here. if someone in Avie's life had an issue with outdoor cats, they're going to have an issue with more htan her cat. They're going to have a major issue, because almost ALL the cats are allowed outdoors. At that point their only option would be to fence in THEIR property to keep cats out. 

That's not the case in the US. Hence, I would do something about it. Because it's not the socially expected norm. 

I get that it's not fair since they're the ones being impacted, but when you're the outlier in an area or situation or on an issue, you are the person who has to bend. Anything else is as effective as spitting into an oncoming wind.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Just wanna say fences don't really help much with cats :/


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Just wanna say fences don't really help much with cats :/


They can - I use one on parts of my yard to keep the cats IN on the easier parts. It's a pain though because you have to have it slanting back in the direction you don't want the cat at a pretty steep angle on top. It's expensive and a pinta.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Would one have to get permission for their neighbors since to keep cats out it would be hanging over their yard ?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Would one have to get permission for their neighbors since to keep cats out it would be hanging over their yard ?


Depends on property laws and how close to your property line the fence is. If I did something like that, no, because my fence is 100 feet from my property line. If my fence was on the line, absolutely. Some areas have sort of... easements, though, and that's without going into things like Home Owners Associations where they can tell you what your fence has to look from and where it has to be.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> That said, given what I know of where Avie is - this is not a concern. Cats outdoors are an expected and cultural norm. It'd be awfully strange to have someone with an issue with it. It's something that's just done - to the degree that many places won't adopt cats out if they're going to not be allowed outside to roam. The internet's an international forum and it's important to remember that.





CptJack said:


> But the majority of people in *this* country have indoor cats. If someone here had an issue with you keeping your cats indoors all the time would you do something about it? THERE IS a cultural component here. if someone in Avie's life had an issue with outdoor cats, they're going to have an issue with more htan her cat. They're going to have a major issue, because almost ALL the cats are allowed outdoors. At that point their only option would be to fence in THEIR property to keep cats out.


Quoted these for truth. I was actually surprised when I read this, not only because you grasp the situation here, but also because I did not realize the majority of cats in the US are indoor cats. Wow, one of the first times I've felt blinded by my culture. 

Anyway, it is true that shelters will not adopt out cats if they're only gonna be kept indoors, unless the cat has a medical condition so he must stay indoors or the cat has always been used to staying indoors. Animal rescues and welfare organizations are proponents of letting cats outside. The general view is that it's sad if a cat can never come outside. And so we come to the situation here: cats are allowed free access to outside, cats walk loose everywhere... and it's not... I just don't... have an issue with it. 

Don't get me wrong, there are people who do have an issue with it. We have cat haters here as well, and people with cat-killing dogs. But if these people speak up, they know before they've uttered a single word they're fighting a losing battle. Not worth the effort. 

Recently a new law got adopted that banned the shooting of roaming cats. Until last year, hunters were allowed to shoot cats in rural areas. A national campaign was launched (because pets were shot as well, hunters can't distinguish between feral and pet from a distance) and had effect. (I signed a national petition too) I'd go so far as to say this is a very cat-tolerant country.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Avie said:


> Quoted these for truth. I was actually surprised when I read this, not only because you grasp the situation here, but also because I did not realize the majority of cats in the US are indoor cats. Wow, one of the first times I've felt blinded by my culture.
> 
> Anyway, it is true that shelters will not adopt out cats if they're only gonna be kept indoors, unless the cat has a medical condition so he must stay indoors or the cat has always been used to staying indoors. Animal rescues and welfare organizations are proponents of letting cats outside. The general view is that it's sad if a cat can never come outside. And so we come to the situation here: cats are allowed free access to outside, cats walk loose everywhere... and it's not... I just don't... have an issue with it.
> 
> ...



In fairness, I should say the majority of *well cared for* cats in the US are kept indoors, and keeping cats indoors is considered the responsible option. The converse of where you are and social attitudes and norms - Rescues won't adopt to you if you're going to let the cat out, in most cases. 

It's obviously very, very different culturally and as a result people's attitudes, behaviors, and expectations are different. Cats roaming here is seen in general as an animal that's poorly maintain and ill managed, owned by someone who doesn't care about their cat - or ferals, or strays, or dumped, or animals who aren't pets in general (barn cats). This obviously varies some by location -as I said, my cats and my neighbors' cats all go out - but I'm more rural than not, and my area isn't representative of the country as a whole, and it's still majorly frowned upon by many and considered just the height of irresponsibility and lack of consideration. I think a lot of what we're seeing here is just down to that. Cultural stuff.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> In fairness, I should say the majority of *well cared for* cats in the US are kept indoors, and keeping cats indoors is considered the responsible option. The converse of where you are and social attitudes and norms - Rescues won't adopt to you if you're going to let the cat out, in most cases.
> 
> It's obviously very, very different culturally and as a result people's attitudes, behaviors, and expectations are different. Cats roaming here is seen in general as an animal that's poorly maintain and ill managed, owned by someone who doesn't care about their cat - or ferals, or strays, or dumped, or animals who aren't pets in general (barn cats). This obviously varies some by location -as I said, my cats and my neighbors' cats all go out - but I'm more rural than not, and my area isn't representative of the country as a whole, and it's still majorly frowned upon by many and considered just the height of irresponsibility and lack of consideration. I think a lot of what we're seeing here is just down to that. Cultural stuff.


That makes sense. I am definitely reading all posts here in this topic in another light now I've read your explanation, so thank you. The puzzle pieces are falling into place, so to speak.


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## buoysmom (Nov 19, 2008)

I think a lot has changed over a pretty recent time period with regards to indoor/outdoor cats. I live in CA and when I was a kid, people let their cats roam, or at least the majority did. Now I would say it's kind of split, but more people keep their cats indoors than they used to. We keep our two indoors, they have never been out. It was easier to start with the beginning when these two were kittens, rather than to force our old cat who was used to going out indoors, once we'd learned it was better. That cat was unusual in that he never ever left our backyard though. I didn't want my kittens out using people's flower gardens for a litterbox or being nuisences. I do see even apparently very well cared for cats allowed outside though. I have seen more disdain for the idea of outdoor cats in online communities than in real life. 

When I was a teen, we had a cat who was allowed outside and he jumped our backyard fence into our next door neighbor's yard, just like the cat in this story did, and he too was killed. It was very sad, my mom's tenant who was renting out a room in our house jumped the fence, got the cat, and we rushed him to the vet but it was too late. They couldn't recessitate him. He died on the way to the vet. I wasn't upset with the dog, the dog was just doing what dogs do. This was a very nice dog, very gentle around humans. There was nothing to be done. I think my parents did tell the owners, just to let them know, but no one entertained the idea that the dog ought to be put down or rehomed because of this.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Actually I am not sure that most cats in the US are indoor only....
(I never really thought people followed the humane society reccomendation)...
I grew up in the country, in the suburbs, and lived in the city as well (about 19 years actually) -- there are plenty of both around, def more city cats indoors only-- but I never even heard of that anywhere else....
We certainly never had indoor only cats, ever...
and we FLEW Kitty to Kathmandu, he lived there for 5 years, would get lost fairly often in the neighbors corn field (he would just sit and Meow and Mom would go out and fetch him, this was not way out in the country, it was in the city, but it was about 30yrs ago)....He was put down d/t liver issues, only made it to 9 or something, but thats because we couldnt find a very sophisticated cat vet in those days, there....
I am not really a cat person and not on cat forums or anything ... but again would be very surprised if most cats are indoor only..


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Me? Sure.
> 
> But the majority of people in *this* country have indoor cats.


That depends entirely on where you go.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kayota said:


> That depends entirely on where you go.


As I have said:



> In fairness, I should say the majority of *well cared for* cats in the US are kept indoors, and keeping cats indoors is considered the responsible option. The converse of where you are and social attitudes and norms - Rescues won't adopt to you if you're going to let the cat out, in most cases.


The attitudes, NATIONWIDE, in this country is backward from those attitudes NATIONWIDE in the UK, Netherlands and large parts of the EU. There, rescues by and large won't adopt if you don't intend to let the cat out to roam. Here the reverse is true. Individual locations, and circumstance vary. As me talking about my specific neighborhood earlier is a good testament to.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Growing up we always had indoor/outdoor cats. Unfortunately they were not as lucky as some people's outdoor cats on this forum. One died because she climbed up into the undercarriage of a car and jumped out while the car was driving down the road. She died. My other cat never came home one night. I'm assuming that she was probably eaten by a coyote. All I can think about is the terror they must have felt in their last moments. I will never have an outdoor cat again. I cannot protect them outside and would be risking their lives. My cat now was outdoor before I adopted her. She has never tried to escape and she is perfectly content living inside. I do not feel that her life is lacking at all by not being able to go outside.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Having lived in a big city with a cat and then in a remote country setting to now a rural setting, I feel my cat was never truly safe in any of the conditions. Different dangers, different settings. It is not the near neighbors that I fear but the ones who do not know me or my cat. Cats can and do travel quite a distance. For a few years a cat shared himself with us and a farm about 5 miles across the way. I would see him in our barn sleeping hanging out with our cats and than one day I saw him sitting on the porch of some farm house on another road. To get to the other house the cat would have to go across some hay fields, some marsh ground, a creek, and across another patch of pasture to sit at the other house. This cat did this for quite some time. I never knew what happened to the cat he just stopped showing up. 

The meanest, cruelest thing a cat outdoors will have to face is a cat-hating human. These humans think nothing of poisoning, trapping, shooting, using for dog bait, and whatever sadistic thing some humans can think of to end a cat's life.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I feel my cat was never truly safe in any of the conditions.


This is true, of course. Nothing is ever truly safe. A cat kept indoors is not truly safe. He is at the mercy of his family; they may choose to kill or abuse the cat and he would have no escape. There may be a house fire or carbon monoxide and he would have no escape. A cat outdoors is exposed to a larger variety of dangers. So are people. So are wild animals. As I said, all my cats are indoors but I absolutely do not blame someone if they consider allowing their cat outdoors to be an acceptable risk. I would not personally stay indoors my entire life just because it might be safer. The total risk of a fatal car accident is fairly high in this country, particularly around here (high speeds, rural roads, etc.). I still choose to drive.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Having lived in a big city with a cat and then in a remote country setting to now a rural setting, I feel my cat was never truly safe in any of the conditions. Different dangers, different settings. It is not the near neighbors that I fear but the ones who do not know me or my cat. Cats can and do travel quite a distance. For a few years a cat shared himself with us and a farm about 5 miles across the way. I would see him in our barn sleeping hanging out with our cats and than one day I saw him sitting on the porch of some farm house on another road. To get to the other house the cat would have to go across some hay fields, some marsh ground, a creek, and across another patch of pasture to sit at the other house. This cat did this for quite some time. I never knew what happened to the cat he just stopped showing up.
> 
> The meanest, cruelest thing a cat outdoors will have to face is a cat-hating human. These humans think nothing of poisoning, trapping, shooting, using for dog bait, and whatever sadistic thing some humans can think of to end a cat's life.


There is always Danger.. I live in the suburbs currently.... Own 11 acres in a much more rural area about 20 minutes away. I see way more coyotes here than at my acreage. 

Since I have been home, There have been a good sized male yote, working the county property behind my house and up and down the street.. .In fact Merlin is out back and I think he is talking to him now...

I know what he is looking for cats.... I have sent Merlin and/or the Hell Bitch out several times to try to push him out of here.... He backs off a bit but does not leave...

IF I had to bet... A cat is going to die tonight.... And someone is going to be sad about it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> This is true, of course. Nothing is ever truly safe. A cat kept indoors is not truly safe. He is at the mercy of his family; they may choose to kill or abuse the cat and he would have no escape..


You take stuff like this WAY WAY too far..


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Yotes in the cities are becoming a big thing. I was talking to a relief vet at a conference. She was doing some relief work in the burbs near Chicago. Big coyote problem going on there. People seeing coyotes jumping fences and grabbing little dogs out of their yards. People also reporting seeing the coyotes grabbing cats also. One dog owner reporting a coyote came running towards her and grabbed her little dog. Luckily for the little dog it was on a leash and the owner managed to save the dog. Coyotes are becoming so much braver. Yikes.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You take stuff like this WAY WAY too far..


Yes I see that trend in threads like this. 

Look if the person's cat isn't causing any problems, then ok, cool, have it outside ... It's the owner that will be taking the risk.

My issue is with cats that make nuisances of themselves and their owners who don't to anything about it because they think the cat should be free and not contained :/


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> As I have said:
> 
> 
> 
> The attitudes, NATIONWIDE, in this country is backward from those attitudes NATIONWIDE in the UK, Netherlands and large parts of the EU. There, rescues by and large won't adopt if you don't intend to let the cat out to roam. Here the reverse is true. Individual locations, and circumstance vary. As me talking about my specific neighborhood earlier is a good testament to.


Another thought I had is do they have the amount of predators there that we do here? Yotes will eat cats and small dogs. And I see them around all the time. Last week we had tracks walking across our frozen pond.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You take stuff like this WAY WAY too far..


In order for me to know whether this is too far, I would have to know how many pet cats are killed for indoor behavioral problems. I think it's a lot, at least based on cats I've known. I don't believe there's any way to compile that data, as vets aren't going to release private info, people don't always tell the truth on shelter intake forms, and there would be no way to count the cats who are killed not by a vet or shelter. So, no way to prove whether that's "too far" or not.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Another thought I had is do they have the amount of predators there that we do here? Yotes will eat cats and small dogs. And I see them around all the time. Last week we had tracks walking across our frozen pond.


I know nothing about the Netherlands and the bulk of the EU. The UK does not (nor with snakes), but does have trouble with foxes (or so my friends have told me) screwing with the cats and the garbage much the same way. Me? We've probably got 'em, but I've never heard about them or seen them (or trace of them) locally. Our biggest predatory threats are snakes and raptors - and racoons can get pretty nasty with cats, too. 
0


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Can I just say this thread bemuses me? The 'dogs outdoors off leash' thread resulted in something similar, except... the same people who were defending their dogs rights to run off leash in spite of risks are now trying to use those risks to explain why cats outdoors is a horrible idea. The same people who thought they had a RIGHT to let their dogs off leash because otherwise they couldn't be satisfied and living fulfilling life, regardless of inconvience or upset for other people, are arguing the opposite for cats.

I've got no dog in this particular race - I take risks with both and work to minimize those risks and to make sure no one else is affected- and I realize that not everyone is doing a 180 on the issue (AT ALL)

but the few that are...

What?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I don't see it the same at all. My dogs don't wander off leash without supervision. My dogs also don't bother people and their property because they're never on other peoples' property. 

I think there's a LOT more danger to a cat roaming without supervision all the time or a majority of time vs running my dogs in an empty field off leash... 

I don't see the parallel.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ie: If someone wants to let their cat run around an empty field, I'd be fine with that. I DON'T like mating cats in the bushes under my window or pooping in my flower beds or walking all over my cars.

See the difference? Yes?

If you want to let your cat roam and you have the space to do so- like my dad or grandpa- eh... it's not my choice. I wouldn't do so especially with the coyotes, but it's not affecting me so I'm not going to complain.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I don't see it the same at all. My dogs don't wander off leash without supervision. My dogs also don't bother people and their property because they're never on other peoples' property.
> 
> I think there's a LOT more danger to a cat roaming without supervision all the time or a majority of time vs running my dogs in an empty field off leash...
> 
> I don't see the parallel.


I'm not talking about you. 

But there are people arguing here, now, based on inconvience to other people and their property, who insisted in the original thread that their dogs NEEDED TO BE OFF LEASH and if it was dangerous to other dogs, or annoying for other people, or that other people were phobic that they effectively suck it up and deal because dogs are dogs and they can not effectively satisfy their dogs inside or on leash or without the chance to run off leash.

Frankly, it's not that different in these specific two attitudes - except the animal involved.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> In order for me to know whether this is too far, I would have to know how many pet cats are killed for indoor behavioral problems. I think it's a lot, at least based on cats I've known. I don't believe there's any way to compile that data, as vets aren't going to release private info, people don't always tell the truth on shelter intake forms, and there would be no way to count the cats who are killed not by a vet or shelter. So, no way to prove whether that's "too far" or not.


It is still too far.... You act as if the entire world is bent on cruelty...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I know nothing about the Netherlands and the bulk of the EU. The UK does not (nor with snakes), but does have trouble with foxes (or so my friends have told me) screwing with the cats and the garbage much the same way. Me? We've probably got 'em, but I've never heard about them or seen them (or trace of them) locally. Our biggest predatory threats are snakes and raptors - and racoons can get pretty nasty with cats, too.
> 0




Snakes are really not much of a problem for cats.... They tend to be cautious.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Can I just say this thread bemuses me? The 'dogs outdoors off leash' thread resulted in something similar, except... the same people who were defending their dogs rights to run off leash in spite of risks are now trying to use those risks to explain why cats outdoors is a horrible idea. The same people who thought they had a RIGHT to let their dogs off leash because otherwise they couldn't be satisfied and living fulfilling life, regardless of inconvience or upset for other people, are arguing the opposite for cats.
> 
> I've got no dog in this particular race - I take risks with both and work to minimize those risks and to make sure no one else is affected- and I realize that not everyone is doing a 180 on the issue (AT ALL)
> 
> ...


Well i am not one of those people my dog is always leashed except for the few seconds for a picture sometimes but there are no other animals at the time, and often it is in a fenced area (but i keep them leashed cause Dyno can jump most fences)


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Snakes are really not much of a problem for cats.... They tend to be cautious.


The cats aren't cautious around snakes here, they get a kick out of killing them and leaving their mangled bodies all over my yard.. I wont lie once or twice i wish they picked a fight with the wrong snake..l(the neighbor kept ALL of the cats from an oops litter who one female had so there regularly i see 6 different cats on my property... You'd think my dogs would scare them? HA they like to sit just out of reach, or sit right in front of the back door and annoy the dogs


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> The cats aren't cautious around snakes here, they get a kick out of killing them and leaving their mangled bodies all over my yard.. I wont lie once or twice i wish they picked a fight with the wrong snake..l(the neighbor kept ALL of the cats from an oops litter who one female had so there regularly i see 6 different cats on my property... You'd think my dogs would scare them? HA they like to sit just out of reach, or sit right in front of the back door and annoy the dogs


yeah cats can get pretty bad

The one that kept digging up all my vegetables last Summer would run to a part of the patch that Manna couldn't get too. 

Really I lost over half my winter vegetables last year, which really would have killed my grocery budget if my dad hadn't of gotten a deer so we could cut down on our meat expenses. 

I love cats as much as the next person and I care for our cat but it is just pure irresponsible to allow your cat to cause that much damage, we've talked to the owners and they have no intention of containing their cat, so next time it's the local no-kill shelter little kitty goes. We just can't afford someone else's animal destroying our food sources.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> The cats aren't cautious around snakes here, they get a kick out of killing them and leaving their mangled bodies all over my yard.. I wont lie once or twice i wish they picked a fight with the wrong snake..l(the neighbor kept ALL of the cats from an oops litter who one female had so there regularly i see 6 different cats on my property... You'd think my dogs would scare them? HA they like to sit just out of reach, or sit right in front of the back door and annoy the dogs


I let Roxie chase cats because I don't want them on my property but when she catches up with them they don't run, they fight back, and they are usually better at it than she is. She's only caught up twice though. First time she got a thin scratch on her head and second time the cat tore her ear open, didn't even realize it til I was in bed and felt a warm fluid on her ear in the dark. I checked her over but it wasn't noticeable yet for some reason but it actually bled like a mother once it got going.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Kayota said:


> I let Roxie chase cats because I don't want them on my property but when she catches up with them they don't run, they fight back, and they are usually better at it than she is. She's only caught up twice though. First time she got a thin scratch on her head and second time the cat tore her ear open, didn't even realize it til I was in bed and felt a warm fluid on her ear in the dark. I checked her over but it wasn't noticeable yet for some reason but it actually bled like a mother once it got going.


I can't do that cause than Dyno would be the "big bad pit bull" (even though he is not an APBT) the lady who owns the cats has told me i "better keep him under control" and i wouldn't wanna risk it. Especially since I KNOW Dyno would end up killing it if he got a hold of it and my dog Scruffy is just too old for me to let her tangle with a cat though i am sure she would love it..



Flaming said:


> yeah cats can get pretty bad
> 
> The one that kept digging up all my vegetables last Summer would run to a part of the patch that Manna couldn't get too.
> 
> ...


I am thinking that is what i may end up doing, because i am severely irritated with these cats


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Actually I am one of those people- I break the leash laws all the time (along with others breaking laws in the remote areas of the park-- the homeless people and junkies who are camping and shooting up and doing drug deals and trashing the park, etc...) and my cats roam freely.... actually they sort of stay on our land there is plenty to keep them occupied here and plenty of rodents and birds to tempt them...


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Another thought I had is do they have the amount of predators there that we do here? Yotes will eat cats and small dogs. And I see them around all the time. Last week we had tracks walking across our frozen pond.


There are no predators here like coyotes. The most we've got are foxes, and perhaps in a few years time we will have a couple wolves again, but that's it. In the past there were bobcats and brown bears too, but they've disappeared over the past two centuries.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Kayota said:


> I let Roxie chase cats because I don't want them on my property but when she catches up with them they don't run, they fight back, and they are usually better at it than she is. She's only caught up twice though. First time she got a thin scratch on her head and second time the cat tore her ear open, didn't even realize it til I was in bed and felt a warm fluid on her ear in the dark. I checked her over but it wasn't noticeable yet for some reason but it actually bled like a mother once it got going.


And if your dog ended up losing an eye, it would be your fault for sending them out after the cat. You judge people for letting their cats outside to roam because of danger, but you send you small dog out after cats who have now twice injured her.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

SDRRanger said:


> And if your dog ended up losing an eye, it would be your fault for sending them out after the cat. You judge people for letting their cats outside to roam because of danger, but you send you small dog out after cats who have now twice injured her.


they are generally out of reach of the chain or leash when i send her after them. the first time was actually an accident and the second time i assumed the cat that was on my porch would run but it stood ins ground instead. after that i quit letting her go after them if she could reach them, sooo...


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> They can - I use one on parts of my yard to keep the cats IN on the easier parts. It's a pain though because you have to have it slanting back in the direction you don't want the cat at a pretty steep angle on top. It's expensive and a pinta.


Thank you for this! You just reminded me of an episode of My Cat From Hell where he talks about a certain angle of fence that cats can't/wont climb over. (I think it was 45 degrees but I'd have to check) He recommended it to some people who liked to let their cat out on their patio in a condo complex, but their cat was bothering the next door neighbours. (going in their open windows and terrorizing their own cat) Put up the lattice, cat no longer bothered neighbours but still got to enjoy their outdoor space.

When we have a house I intend to have a fenced yard, and putting up a small bit of lattice or something at that angle would be an easy way to keep the cats in the yard. Or at the very least, slow them down enough that they wouldn't be up-over-and-gone quicker than I could stop them.

I've never personally tested the theory, but it's worth looking into.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is still too far.... You act as if the entire world is bent on cruelty...


Just being realistic. It's not considered cruelty to kill your cat for behavioral problems. . .it happens a lot. Ask anyone who works at a vet's office. . .


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Thank you for this! You just reminded me of an episode of My Cat From Hell where he talks about a certain angle of fence that cats can't/wont climb over. (I think it was 45 degrees but I'd have to check) He recommended it to some people who liked to let their cat out on their patio in a condo complex, but their cat was bothering the next door neighbours. (going in their open windows and terrorizing their own cat) Put up the lattice, cat no longer bothered neighbours but still got to enjoy their outdoor space.
> 
> When we have a house I intend to have a fenced yard, and putting up a small bit of lattice or something at that angle would be an easy way to keep the cats in the yard. Or at the very least, slow them down enough that they wouldn't be up-over-and-gone quicker than I could stop them.
> 
> I've never personally tested the theory, but it's worth looking into.


It should work just fine. It would work here if not for living in said woods (our fence is just... around the trees, basically) and fact that we live on the side of a mountain so the fence is at an angle on it, both of which complicate the whole thing.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Can I just say this thread bemuses me? The 'dogs outdoors off leash' thread resulted in something similar, except... the same people who were defending their dogs rights to run off leash in spite of risks are now trying to use those risks to explain why cats outdoors is a horrible idea. The same people who thought they had a RIGHT to let their dogs off leash because otherwise they couldn't be satisfied and living fulfilling life, regardless of inconvience or upset for other people, are arguing the opposite for cats.
> 
> I've got no dog in this particular race - I take risks with both and work to minimize those risks and to make sure no one else is affected- and I realize that not everyone is doing a 180 on the issue (AT ALL)
> 
> ...


Uh what? A person walking their dog off leash in a park is NOT the same thing as someone who lets their cat run around the neighborhood unintended ... It's not even close to the same thing :/

Now someone who lets their dog do the same thing as most cat owners do, then they are as wrong as cat owners IMO.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SDRRanger said:


> And if your dog ended up losing an eye, it would be your fault for sending them out after the cat. You judge people for letting their cats outside to roam because of danger, but you send you small dog out after cats who have now twice injured her.


How is a dog going to lose an eye? I suppose you mean by the claws? 

That little Terrier mix of Kayota's looks pretty scrappy to me...

I take it you have never really seen a dog that really wants to get a cat? 

Because if they get close enough to touch, the can is done in 30 seconds or less.

The first cat I saw taken out by a dog was the toughest meanest cat I have known. 

My Great Grandmaw's Wash house cat. Did not have a name Just the Wash house cat. Fight notched ears, Big tough tom. He lived in the Wash house and around it. It was sort of a barn, workshop all in one with a chicken and turkey coop on that back and some possum pens on the side. This is circa 1974 so coyotes were at LEAST 15 years from making it to my part of the state. Our dogs that were often loose did not bother the cat because it was not tolerated. The Hog Dogs were NEVER let loose anywhere they could get to any critters or livestock. They would catch the goats, sheep etc. All the grand kids, etc were scared of this cat. He was Mean. I cannot say I was, but I did not try to pet it either... No one petted that cat. 

Then My favorite Great Uncle came down to visit. ( my only living Great Uncle now. I need to go visit him) He cam down from Georgia and that day was the first JRT I ever met. Except Uncle Leonard did not call it a JRT. He called it a Preachers dog. I saw his truck pull in to great Grandaddie's drive from our front window. I was rushing over to see him and was running by the wash house. I see a little tan and white blur run past me. I later learn it was Goldie.... The Preachers dog.... Well Goldie had seen the Wash house cat...And she was one it. I hollered for help but It was too late.. Goldie had him and he was DONE! It was probably the most angry I ever saw my Great Grandmaw. 

And that is the thing... Cats may look impressive. Slashing, hissing etc.... But none of that affects the dog. A dog that REALLY wants to take out a cat.... Even a very small dog. Just rushes in and slams into the cat. Right past the claws.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How is a dog going to lose an eye? I suppose you mean by the claws?
> 
> That little Terrier mix of Kayota's looks pretty scrappy to me...
> 
> ...



Lol. Not in my experience. Cats being defensive and flailing around trying to get away from the dog/scare the dog off maybe, but I actually had one of my foster dogs lose an eye (literally) to a cat.

A 35lb pit mix that, yeah, really wanted the cat. Cat came out past the baby gated barriers, dog lost an eye and cat got some stitches, we had to pry the cat off the dog and got a couple of decent bites ourselves, but trust me. Cats can and do present a danger to dogs. 

Worth remembering something you've said yourself here: There's a learning curve with dogs learning how to kill, even things like rabbits. They're not always quick, they're not always clean, and they're not always effective. Experienced cat and inexperienced dog? My money's on the cat doing damage, whether it ends up dead or NOT.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How is a dog going to lose an eye? I suppose you mean by the claws?
> 
> That little Terrier mix of Kayota's looks pretty scrappy to me...
> 
> I take it you have never really seen a dog that really wants to get a cat?


I have seen a dog take on a cat actually. I've seen a dog shake one so quick that I doubt it knew the dog had it before it was dead. I've also beaten (literally) three dogs off a large tom in my parent's run down barn when I was younger. 

I know how quick a dog can take a cat, but I've also worked at a vet clinic and seen multiple dogs come in for emergency treatment (up to and including losing the eye) because they got too close to a cat that either had nowhere to go or was brave enough to take it on. And these were big and small dogs. 

(This is not meant offensively to you Kayota) Roxie might look scrappy, but from what I've read Kayota hasn't used her for hunting or barn hunts and since cats have already hurt her, I would assume that more practice would be involved before she'd have a better chance...and in that time she could be blinded.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Lol. Not in my experience. Cats being defensive and flailing around trying to get away from the dog/scare the dog off maybe, but I actually had one of my foster dogs lose an eye (literally) to a cat.
> 
> A 35lb pit mix that, yeah, really wanted the cat. Cat came out past the baby gated barriers, dog lost an eye and cat got some stitches, we had to pry the cat off the dog and got a couple of decent bites ourselves, but trust me. Cats can and do present a danger to dogs.
> 
> Worth remembering something you've said yourself here: There's a learning curve with dogs learning how to kill, even things like rabbits. They're not always quick, they're not always clean, and they're not always effective. Experienced cat and inexperienced dog? My money's on the cat doing damage, whether it ends up dead or NOT.


 Yes but an inexperienced gets experienced quick, whether it's a hog dog. , herding dog or hunting dog or whatever. They learn how to do their jobs while avoiding the tusks, hooves, teeth, claws etc ... As someone who has been into jets for almost 15 years, I can tell you that pound for pound they are one of if not the toughest dogs I personally have ever seen. Once they commit to quarry they WILL continue until it is dead. Bear, who is 13 lbs wet if lucky and in his prime he could (and did on several occasions) killed a **** that was twice his size, he still to this day can snatch a rabbit out of the air.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I will have to honestly admit this. If I lived in the city and had a neighbor let their cat loose and it came on my property, I would live trap it and take it to the shelter. The smell of cat pee and dealing with cat poop in my gardens is something I am going to ignore and live with. I did have to do this with a neighbor's cat when I lived in the city. It was an intact tom and kept spraying my front door. My cats were becoming stressed by this cat's visits. When talking to the neighbor did not stop the visits, off to the shelter went the cat. I figured once he paid the fine maybe than he would keep the cat on his property. *Shrug*


Stray cats that wander onto our property out here do not live too long. Often times I do not even know the cat came onto the property till I see it out in the fields. I than have to bag it and take it to work. At least I scan them for a chip prior to putting them in the freezer. No cats with a chip has been found yet. *shrug*


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SDRRanger said:


> I have seen a dog take on a cat actually. I've seen a dog shake one so quick that I doubt it knew the dog had it before it was dead. I've also beaten (literally) three dogs off a large tom in my parent's run down barn when I was younger.
> 
> I know how quick a dog can take a cat, but I've also worked at a vet clinic and seen multiple dogs come in for emergency treatment (up to and including losing the eye) because they got too close to a cat that either had nowhere to go or was brave enough to take it on. And these were big and small dogs.
> 
> (This is not meant offensively to you Kayota) Roxie might look scrappy, but from what I've read Kayota hasn't used her for hunting or barn hunts and since cats have already hurt her, I would assume that more practice would be involved before she'd have a better chance...and in that time she could be blinded.


None taken.... I know it happens..and I was taking the dog on looks. 

Funny thing.... Of all the working injuries I have witnessed in dogs... Eye injuries are nearly absent. 

But.... the dogs I have had the most exposure with making direct contact on a regular basis have been pretty well bred... 
A well bred pit,Catahoula, ACD, etc name your working breed.... USUALLY have very well protected eyes....It might not even look like it until you see the dog in action. Nothing against bug eyed dogs... But they tend to get their eyes knocked out of the socket..... ( I have seen that happen... A couple of times... Bug eyed ACDs) 

Which is why I laugh when people say conformation is not important.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

yeah rpxie IS bug eyed a bit so thats something to worry about. she gets weird crap in her eyes all the time.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

So, I had this pop up in my news feed:Houzz: Here’s How to Show Your Pet Even More Love. http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwr_jl5BE (some really good ideas. The last one made me think of this thread though. 


http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/20041678/list/See-a-Deluxe--Catio--Built-for-Feline-Fun

Seriously, this is awesome. I definitely plan on doing something like this someday.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Kayota said:


> That seems like a sad reason to get rid of a dog if you had your dogs properly confined. Roxie would absolutely kill cats if she were bigger, but they usually win the fight. To me that's the same as saying you wouldn't keep a squirrel or rabbit killer. It's all the same to them.


i agree...people need to look at it from an animals perspective.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It is the same to the dog, yes. It is not the same to the *person*. 

Look, I'm not claiming it would be fair to the dog. I'm not claiming it would make the dog evil. I'm just saying if one of my dogs killed one of my cats, something I am familiar with and love, my emotional state would be impacted severely enough that it would _less_ fair to the dog for me to keep it. I wouldn't think it was bad. I wouldn't think it had done something profoundly wrong. I would just not be able to look at the dog without bursting into tears.

Because,you know, I loved the cat.

Dog's perspective? Pretty sure me avoiding the dog that I had previously spent a ton of time and attention on because seeing it made me cry would be pretty freaking traumatic to said dog.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Well I have to say it was pretty hard (traumatic) after mine killed a pair of baby squirrels we had been handraising - when I stepped away to take a shower-- she blew through 2 doors and squashed the cage flat to get at them....
When I saw them, my mind couldnt process it, I didnt understand what I was seeing.... they were still warm... She just killed them and left. It was completely gratuitous....

But we made it through. I still love her (but we had only had them a couple weeks I dont know what I would if it been one of our cats)....but, no rodents or bunnies in our house, I know now, its just not gonna end well..


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Bear does that, he just kills them ... No blood, not a mark on them. He just kills to kill :/ Josefina is that way also.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Well I have to say it was pretty hard (traumatic) after mine killed a pair of baby squirrels we had been handraising - when I stepped away to take a shower-- she blew through 2 doors and squashed the cage flat to get at them....
> When I saw them, my mind couldnt process it, I didnt understand what I was seeing.... they were still warm... She just killed them and left. It was completely gratuitous....
> 
> But we made it through. I still love her (but we had only had them a couple weeks I dont know what I would if it been one of our cats)....but, no rodents or bunnies in our house, I know now, its just not gonna end well..


Yeah. We don't own small pets for this reason, and I absolutely *do* take every reasonable precaution to give hte cats escape routes, the dogs don't have free roam of the house when we're not here to supervise. I work hard on introductions and training.

But I love those cats. They're every bit as much family members as the dogs and I've had three of the cats for (many) years longer than the dogs. Maybe, MAYBE, I would be thicker skinned if confronted with the situation - but I doubt it. So I do everything in my power to keep them separated and safe, and acknowledge that my failing here is that I could not emotionally handle continuing to live with a dog who had killed one of my cats. I mean yeah, they've killed and brought in small animals and in the past a dog ate a hamster without any serious upheaval on my part but one of the cats? I'd crack.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Ironically.... two more cats are gone now... Coyotes I am sure.


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