# First time dog owner - Papillon-pug hybrid



## ghoti (Apr 29, 2008)

Hello

I apologize if there are a lot of threads for the above. I tried to search for any papillon-pug hybrid dog posts, but since pug is a three letter word, it's a little tough to find anything for this specific mix.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone has heard of or has a papillon-pug mix and if there is a name for them. I think papug would be a good name.  I would assume they would go with pugillon though. I can't find much in google either.

I have done a lot of research on both types of dogs, and they both seem to be pretty sensative to temperature. I guess since this dog has papillon in it, and since its snout is longer than a pugs and its eyes aren't as bulged out as a pug, it is less likely to have respitory and cornea problems, as pugs sometimes do. I guess that's a huge plus for mixing these dogs.

Either way, I would like to know a lot more information about these dogs. Both breeds are intelligent, they like going for daily walks, and are good watch dogs. They are both very cute, and together mix up to make one of the cutest dogs I have ever seen. He is quite quiet so far, and both breeds seem to be fairly quiet and aren't all that yappy.

So, now that I have kind of stated some research I have done, I have a few breed specific and general questions.

First of all, does anyone own one of these dogs? Do you find that they are easy to train? Are they good with other animals and children?

Another general question I have is, can dogs actually be 'litter' trained??? We are cat owners (I have two right now) and have been for many years, and we have been told that these dogs can be trained to go to the bathroom on a mat that you can buy at a pet store. We purchased a bunch of these mats, and so far, he has peed on it once, but pooped on a pair of my boxers that I left on the ground. Right now would be a good time to toilet train him for indoors, cause we are in an apartment that doesn't have much carpet. We are moving to a place in a month that has a lot of carpet, though.

Also, he's got longer hair, like a papillon. Not as long, but more similar to a papillon than a pug. Is this actual hair, or is it fur? How are they with allergies?? I can't find much information regarding these on the internet, especially cause I can't find anything about a pug-papillon mix.

Thanks again for any information you can give me. It is greatly appreciated.

Also, I will get some pictures to post shortly. He's soooo cute!!! He's kind of an orange colour, with a black snout, droopy ears, little boots on his paws, and he has a little white soul patch on his chin. He also has a somewhat white line going down the middle of his back.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

A hybrid is a mix between species- ie wolf to dog. A papillion to pug is a mix breed. ( ie dog to dog).


----------



## ghoti (Apr 29, 2008)

borzoimom said:


> A hybrid is a mix between species- ie wolf to dog. A papillion to pug is a mix breed. ( ie dog to dog).


Really? I guess a whole website is incorrect, haha. Thanks for the insight.

P.S. the website is http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/hybriddogs.htm


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

"In biology: 
Hybrid (biology), the offspring resulting from cross-breeding of different plants or animals. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

that's gotta be a real bizarre looking mix! 

When you have a mixed breed you never know what you'll get. It could have some traits from one parent and some from another.... any combination is possible. The pups will all probably look very different and behave very different. I had a GSD/Golden who was half and half and he was a great dog. He had the long hair of a golden, floppy ears of a golden, coloration of a German shepherd, the harder temperament and protectiveness of a GSD, and the hip dysplasia of BOTH breeds. 

What I'm trying to say with mixed breeds its all really a guessing game. Your best bet is to research both breeds and expect ANYTHING from either of those. 

Also, just to keep in mind a mix of breeds is not really technically a hybrid. Hybrids are crossing two species (think mule or tigon) not crossing two breeds of dogs.



> I guess since this dog has papillon in it, and since its snout is longer than a pugs and its eyes aren't as bulged out as a pug, it is less likely to have respitory and cornea problems, as pugs sometimes do. I guess that's a huge plus for mixing these dogs.


Or if you look at it the other way, it's a huge downside to mixing these dogs. Papillons don't have these respiratory problems and problems from bulging eyes. By crossing them you are actually increasing the likelihood of this from the papillon's perspective. 

Things to really watch out for are patellar problems- very very common in toy dogs. It's where the knee cap pops out of place. Sometimes it requires surgery. Another eye problem in addition to the pug ones you've mentioned is Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA). 

Another thing I'm a little concerned about is the fact that pugs are brachycephalic and papillons are one of the higher energy breeds. I think that could potentially cause some breathing problems. Paps are athletic and really like to go go go so a shorter snout might be an issue. 

My last pap came litter trained, but honestly going outside is much easier. It can be done, but I'd think on it a lot before deciding to go that route. Toy dogs tend to be harder to potty train as is than larger breeds. 

By the way, you MUSt post pictures.  I am really interested to see your little guy. He's part papillon, he's gotta be all cute.

I'm sure Kuma's mom will be on to talk a little about pugs as well.



ghoti said:


> Really? I guess a whole website is incorrect, haha. Thanks for the insight.
> 
> P.S. the website is http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/hybriddogs.htm



Seriously, beware of dogbreedinfo. It's full of a lot of misinformation.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I would think breeding wise this can be a huge risk on the mother. A pug has such a big square head, and a papillion does not nor does it have wider hips. Highly dangerious IMO>.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

The name for it is mutt  I would think that is a very odd mix. Papillon are so beautiful. 

Yes dogs can be litter trained. They can also be trained to go on boxes containing sod, so that they also know to go outside on the grass. 

Hair is one coat, fur is two (undercoat). I don't know about pugs but I believe papillons have hair not fur.

Edit: damn you all type fast!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hybrid is a marketing ploy and a catch phrase really. People go out of their way to buy special hybrid dogs when in actuality they're just mixed breeds which used to go for nothing. I'm not dissing the mixes but its quite the phenomenon.

Also another thing to keep in mind about dogbreedinfo is that anyone can send pictures of their dogs. They're not good breed examples.

Plus there are pictures on that site that are just wrong. There is no way for example this dog is a papillon/japanese chin. 

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/japillon.htm

It's impossible. Neither breed has a curly coat like that that needs to be clipped. That has to be some sort of a poodle maybe bichon mix.

So yeah, as I've said I'd not put much stock in what that site says about anything actually.

Oh and I forgot, as far as papillon coat, it's fur, not hair. It is not remotely hypoallergenic and both papillons and pugs shed quite a bit.


----------



## filox (Dec 19, 2007)

Hello,

Yes there is name for this mix “Mutt", I don’t mean that in a bad way but it is what it is.

About training any dog can be trained if you know what you are doing, I will suggest that if you don’t have experience, look for a good non violet trainer, this will be well worth on the future.

Potty training + crate training go together... look for the posts there are quite a few on this subject. But basically you will crate your dog at night and fist thing in morning you will take him to where ever you want him to potty, stay there until he does and then give him the toy or treat etc. He will learn that if he potties there he gets something.

Also lots of vigilance during the day. And if it is a young puppy then you have to take him to the potty place every two-three hours.

Read a lot, there are lots of good training books on the market, do some research and read read...
I will recommend "The Dog whisperer" by Paul Owens... to start. There are lots of books also dedicate specifically to puppy training.

Any way I'm sure he is very cute, load some pics so we can meet him and best of luck.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

jesirose said:


> Hair is one coat, fur is two (undercoat). I don't know about pugs but I believe papillons have hair not fur.


It's a single layered coat. Fur, not hair. It doesn't keep growing like say a poodle's. It also doesn't need clipping. They have no undercoat, but they still shed though not as much as a double coated dog (shelties). Should be a silky coat that is single layered. 

Upkeep is easy. Brush a couple times a week, comb the ears daily. No need for a rake or anything as theres no undercoat. 

One thing you may have to either trim or take to the groomers to trim is feet. They get lots of hair on their feet and between their paw pads.


----------



## ghoti (Apr 29, 2008)

Wikipedia says that "Dog hybrids are crosses between different breeds and are often bred selectively". It's only a word, and wikipedia is known to be wrong. Either way, everyone knows that I am talking about, and that's all that matters.

Also, the snout of this dog is quite a bit bigger than a pug. I would be inclined to assume that the beathing problems would be limited, as his snout is much closer to that of a papillon than a pug.

I also like the sod idea. I am for sure going to take a look into that. Also, I am going to take him outside a lot, so he will mostly be going outside, but I would perfer if he didn't go on carpet inside on the off chance that he might have to go inside.

Now, at the moment we have to leave him alone at home for the day while we work. We currently work the exact same shift times, but I go home for lunch. Is he going to be ok being at home for that long alone? We have him in another room away from the two cats.

Also, what about sleeping with us at night? Is it better to separate us at night or is it ok for him to sleep with us right now? A downfall is, he can't jump off the bed right now. It's far too high. He also fell off the bed last night, which was kind of scary.

I am going to do some research into the knee problems. He might have puggish leggs. From what I understand, they don't have as many problems with their knees as Papillon's do. Hopefully that is the case. I have bad knees too though, so maybe he will have something in common with his Dad. Hopefully not though.

I'll take a picture of him at lunch today and post it.

Thank you all for all of the posts and insight. You are all very nice and helpful. I appreciate it.


Adam


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks for the correction, I don't know where I read that. So the difference between fur and hair is what...hair keeps growing? So if the fur doesn't grow why would it shed? Wouldn't they eventually be bald if it doesn't grow?


----------



## Aggie (Mar 13, 2008)

I would not have him sleeping w/ you until he is housebroken.

As far as in general, I've never owned small dogs, so I don't know the changes of suffocation/rolling on them/falling off the bed etc. Always had bigger dogs while I was a child; now it's my hubby and the dogs are on the floor.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Yeah he should be sleeping in his crate at night.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

ghoti said:


> I am going to do some research into the knee problems. He might have puggish leggs. From what I understand, they don't have as many problems with their knees as Papillon's do. Hopefully that is the case. I have bad knees too though, so maybe he will have something in common with his Dad. Hopefully not though.


I wouldn't worry too terribly much. It's the most common issue in papillons but it only happens in about three percent of all dogs. Of all the paps I know, I know one with patellar issues that had to have surgery. It was rough on him- poor thing. But even though it's fairly common, it's not as common as many other issues in other breeds. Just something to keep in mind and remember in case you notice a problem. I'm not sure about the frequency of knee problems in pugs at all.

One thing about beds just to be careful is that some beds are very high. If you can, try to get some stairs if you want the dog going on and off the bed. It'll lessen the impact and be better on joints/thin legs. 

You can teach them to use stairs very easily. 



> I also like the sod idea. I am for sure going to take a look into that. Also, I am going to take him outside a lot, so he will mostly be going outside, but I would perfer if he didn't go on carpet inside on the off chance that he might have to go inside.


My new girl is paper trained/pee pad trained. It really is kind of helpful because if I were to have to leave for a long time and no one could let her out, then she'd not be going all over the place. However, I got her at 3 years and didn't train that so I'm no help there.



> Now, at the moment we have to leave him alone at home for the day while we work. We currently work the exact same shift times, but I go home for lunch. Is he going to be ok being at home for that long alone? We have him in another room away from the two cats.


How long are you gone? While they're young it's nice to be able to let them out often- small bladders and all. I'd think if you can make it home for lunch, it'd be okay. One thing to remember is both breeds are companion breeds and papillons especially seem to really thrive off of one on one time. They want to be a part of everything so the more you can involve them in what you do, the better. They're a super smart breed as well but very sensitive. 

Oh and by the way, what's his name? 



jesirose said:


> Thanks for the correction, I don't know where I read that. So the difference between fur and hair is what...hair keeps growing? So if the fur doesn't grow why would it shed? Wouldn't they eventually be bald if it doesn't grow?


What I think of is dogs with hair are the kinds that the hair keeps on growing. I'm sure they reach a certain point, tough. Think of breeds requiring a lot of clipping. Poodles, PWDs, Tibetan Terriers, Shih Tzus, etc. 

Whereas a pap's hair won't ever really need clipping. An occasional trim, but not clipping the entire body. It grows, it just reaches a certain length then stops. It doesn't grow down to the floor or anything like that.

Well, think of your Eskie. I'm pretty sure it sheds, but it has fur as well. It's a breed kept very naturally. The difference is spitz have undercoats and papillons don't. 

Dogs with 'hair' don't shed nearly as much as those with fur.


----------



## ghoti (Apr 29, 2008)

That was a very insightful post, Laurelin. Thank you.

He actually doesn't have a name yet. On my way home I remembered that I forgot to mention that.

I did a lot of reading between posts, so I have an idea and a plan of attack on all of this. It looks like it is best to keep him in a crate during the night. When I let him out in the morning, I will give him a treat and take him for a walk. That just means a really early morning for me..  Oh well, he's worth it.

I am going to post some pictures in a minute though. I'll update this thread to point to the proper threat for the pictures.

When he's home alone, should I keep him in the crate? That kind of leaves him in there for quite a long time every day. That means he is in there at night, then while we are working until 3pm. Here is our schedule. Let me kno wwhat you think.

My schedule is:

Wake up 6:20am
Leave - 6:50am
Get home for lunch at about - 11:50am
Leave from lunch at - 12:15pm
Home at 3:05pm
Night time is fully free.

Emma's schedule is:

Wake up - 6:00am
Leave - 6:45am
Home - 3:10pm
Night time is fully free

EDIT: I forgot to mention that we go to bed between 11pm and 12am

So, given this, what do you think the best course of action is for making sure he doesn't get into anything while we are not home? He's just too cute and cuddly and I want him to sleep with us all night. I just know it's too dangerous and I've read that it isn't the best thing to do when they are a puppy and might cause some training problems in the future.

Thank you very much for all of the advice.

Adam


EDIT number 2:

The link to the thread with the pictures

http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/27680-pug-papillon.html#post280282


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It sounds doable. People often work while having dogs so even if your situation isn't the ideal 'stay at home all day with puppy' one you can make it work.

One thing I like to do is on days when I have school then work I come home to let dogs out, but I try to wake up a bit earlier and go for a short walk or try a short training session. That way you can wear them out a bit before leaving.

Confinement... well, I prefer not to crate that long, however Summer has some separation issues. If she's not kenneled she tends to go crazy so a kennel is the best bet for her. With the others we've used playpens before or baby gates to block off one room. If you can really puppy proof a room and block it off, that'd give your dog some more room than a crate would offer. Definitely make sure a puppy is confined while you're gone. Puppies chew a lot and can get into so much trouble and danger if left on their own. 

I tried it with Summer, though, and she jumped over the baby gate an wreaked havoc on the house.... 

The others are great if left out of the crate and blocked to certain areas of the house. 

If used correctly a crate will be a good safe haven and a great place for him to sleep at night. Summer heads right to her crate when she's ready to go to sleep. We actually keep the other four dogs out at night as they're fairly trustworthy but it took years to build up to that.

ETA: He's soooo cute!


----------



## ghoti (Apr 29, 2008)

Thanks Laurelin

I am obviously going to go get a crate and I am going to puppy proof one of the rooms. I just have to work on the whole peeing and pooing on the ground thing, hehe.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

ghoti said:


> Really? I guess a whole website is incorrect, haha. Thanks for the insight.
> 
> P.S. the website is http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/hybriddogs.htm


Yes, the website is incorrect. The whole 'hybrid dog' thing is just a fad being used by breeders to charge people large amounts of money for mutts, by giving them a fancy name. Most of the dogs you find in shelters (unsurprisingly) look just like these 'hybrids'.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> What I think of is dogs with hair are the kinds that the hair keeps on growing. I'm sure they reach a certain point, tough. Think of breeds requiring a lot of clipping. Poodles, PWDs, Tibetan Terriers, Shih Tzus, etc.
> 
> Whereas a pap's hair won't ever really need clipping. An occasional trim, but not clipping the entire body. It grows, it just reaches a certain length then stops. It doesn't grow down to the floor or anything like that.
> 
> ...


You bet she sheds  I don't actually know anything about any breeds but eskies and some research on two others. So yeah she sheds and has the undercoat. 

I'm going to go google to try to figure out what the rule is lol. Besides the triming I mean there has to be something that defines which is which.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

ghoti said:


> Also, the snout of this dog is quite a bit bigger than a pug. I would be inclined to assume that the beathing problems would be limited, as his snout is much closer to that of a papillon than a pug.


Probably true - the point of everyone else was that you can't assume the same for every papillon/pug mix bred. Thus you can't really say "breeding these dogs would be a good idea", because only some will end up with the longer snouts of the pap, while others might get flat noses like the pug. It's not a 50/50 thing where snout-length is averaged out between the two breeds.



> Now, at the moment we have to leave him alone at home for the day while we work. We currently work the exact same shift times, but I go home for lunch. Is he going to be ok being at home for that long alone? We have him in another room away from the two cats.


That sounds fine. I don't know if you mentioned this somewhere along the thread, but how old is he? Sorry if I missed it. It's a general guideline that pups can hold their bladders for as many hours as there are months in their age, and I would think this guideline would be even stricter with small dogs because they have comparatively smaller bladders. That might provide you with an idea of how long he can be left alone at one go.



> Also, what about sleeping with us at night? Is it better to separate us at night or is it ok for him to sleep with us right now? A downfall is, he can't jump off the bed right now. It's far too high. He also fell off the bed last night, which was kind of scary.


I would definitely not let him sleep on the bed until he's pottytrained - till then, he should stay in his crate. Beyond that, it's your choice, but I would at least wait till he's fully grown first.

I am no expert on either breed in your mix, but I've heard a lot about them being very toy-motivated. If you are looking to entertain him in his crate while you're gone, puzzle games are probably a good idea. Invest in a Kong or a Buster Cube - these are toys that will make your puppy think, as opposed to just apply physical strength. There are lots of other posts on this forum about what you can put in a Kong and how to make them last longer.

If you can, take him out for a quick walk right before work. You and your SO/roommate can alternate if you like, so that you're not the one getting up earlier all the time. Even if it's just tossing a ball for him in the house. But remember, no jogging while he's a growing pup as it could hurt his joints. Anyway, that should leave him content to sleep till lunch, and you can leave him the Buster Cube just before you go, just to ensure he won't be bored. 

Have fun with your puppy! He's adorable.


----------



## esweetp (Oct 6, 2009)

Hello everyone! I had to jump into this conversation because I too am a very proud Papillon-pug mix. We were told they are called Pugillon's but that may have just been the breeders name for them. My little Beans has hair like a pug as far as short and ears like the pugs. Her tail is curly and has 1 1/2 curls. She has the long legs of the Papillon but they are thicker because of the pug. The vet said she is really good because Papillon's can be a bit fragile on their legs. Her knees are good, I had that checked. The only thing I have had issues with her was she did not potty train very fast like my other dogs had and her breathing. If she gets too excited or is running alot she will have a snorting attack. When I took her to our vet he said that is common with the pugs so to just calm her down and pet her neck to force her to swallow. We do and it has worked so far. My puppy is very very loving and wants to see what we are doing at all times. I never crated my dogs so I didn't with her. I wished I had at one point only because when she was little we moved into a new house and she chewed the corners off of our hand carved banisters and ripped the carpet off of one step of the stairs. She stopped doing that finally and so far has stopped the whole chewing bit. She stays during the day with our other two dogs in the house to roam free downstairs. I have not had any problems with her. With our schedule they are alone up to 9 hrs a day with work and maybe once a month we might come home to a poo accident but that has been it so far. We have wood floors so I would know if she goes.

I love my little Pugillon. She is very loyal and loves to ride in her car seat in the car. She is scared of small children since a little girl at the vets came to pet her and then pulled on her ear. She is cautious of anyone new at first and will not leave my side. She is smart and loves to learn new tricks. She does the standard sit, stay, shake, etc. But we also taught her to jump through the hoop, do the soldier (she crawls on her belly), and sit pretty. She does have little dog syndrome and feels that she can take her 15 lb body and beat up the next door husky who is about 90 lbs.

Beans is the first little dog I have ever had and she has been great. We love her! 
Thanks,
Patti


----------



## DogPaw (Jan 11, 2009)

Did the OP get the dog from a breeder?


----------



## esweetp (Oct 6, 2009)

I don't know what OP is.


----------



## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

esweetp said:


> I don't know what OP is.


OP is "Original Poster."


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

The original post is from about 18 months ago.


----------



## ghoti (Apr 29, 2008)

esweetp said:


> Hello everyone! I had to jump into this conversation because I too am a very proud Papillon-pug mix. We were told they are called Pugillon's but that may have just been the breeders name for them.


I like Pugillon, but my favourite is PapyPug. You're the first I've heard that has one of these crosses.



esweetp said:


> My little Beans has hair like a pug as far as short and ears like the pugs. Her tail is curly and has 1 1/2 curls. She has the long legs of the Papillon but they are thicker because of the pug. The vet said she is really good because Papillon's can be a bit fragile on their legs. Her knees are good, I had that checked.


Howie (my puggillon) has longer hair and his ears are more like a papillon. He has pug colouring (black nose and brownish everywhere else). He also has good knees. I get worried about him jumping up and down from our bed though. We're in the process of making a step for him for when we move into our new place (it doesn't have carpet, so that worries me more).




esweetp said:


> The only thing I have had issues with her was she did not potty train very fast like my other dogs had and her breathing. If she gets too excited or is running alot she will have a snorting attack. When I took her to our vet he said that is common with the pugs so to just calm her down and pet her neck to force her to swallow. We do and it has worked so far.


We had some troubles with the potty training as well. He wasn't able to hold it for too long at first. He also HATES when it has rained outside. He will run on the grass, go pee, then pull until I finally give up and take him inside. Sometimes he will then poop inside. This is not very often, but it does happen from time to time. He's getting a lot better with that now, though, cause he knows it takes A LONG time for me to finally give in and take him inside.

For breathing, we have the same issue sometimes. It's mostly just after he wakes up and tries to run a lot or if he does pull on the leash. He used to be worse with it when he was younger. We were told to grab his nose and kind of push it down a bit. This seems to work quite well to open the airways.



esweetp said:


> My puppy is very very loving and wants to see what we are doing at all times.


Howie is exactly the same!!! He is more attached to my girlfriend, but he always has to be beside us when we are home. Funny story. I take him out in the morning (I work later than my girlfriend) and we currently on the 14th floor of an apartment building. As I was with Howie, my girlfriend left for work. Howie knew she was there when he left and usually runs up to her to say hello every time he gets back in the morning. This time she wasn't there. He went running and looked every place she could possibly be (even checked the balcony) and couldn't find her. It took him a while to finally adjust to the fact that she wasn't there, haha. It was cute. But yeah, he's very loving and follows us everywhere, and always has to know what we are doing.



esweetp said:


> I never crated my dogs so I didn't with her. I wished I had at one point only because when she was little we moved into a new house and she chewed the corners off of our hand carved banisters and ripped the carpet off of one step of the stairs. She stopped doing that finally and so far has stopped the whole chewing bit. She stays during the day with our other two dogs in the house to roam free downstairs. I have not had any problems with her. With our schedule they are alone up to 9 hrs a day with work and maybe once a month we might come home to a poo accident but that has been it so far. We have wood floors so I would know if she goes.


I pretty much have to agree with all of this, except for the fact that we semi-crated Howie for a while. We live in an apt with carpets right now, but usually no accidents. If anything, it's cause he refused to poop outside in the morning, haha. He chewed a pair of my girlfriends boots and the corners of a couple of our tables when he was younger, but nothing huge. His chewing is nowhere near as bad or damaging as my sisters min-pin chiwawa cross. We will soon be moving into an all wood floor home! I can't wait! We leave him out and he's always very good.



esweetp said:


> I love my little Pugillon. She is very loyal and loves to ride in her car seat in the car. She is scared of small children since a little girl at the vets came to pet her and then pulled on her ear.


We have a seatbelt for Howie, and he loves the car too, as does probably every dog, haha. He is also a little scared of children because of an incident where he was kicked.

Just a hint. Don't post anything about that kind of stuff on here if you want advice. People will tell you to get rid of your dog and that you are a horrible person and shouldn't own a dog. Howie got kicked by a friends child and he reacted by growling at the child and jumped up on him and snapped at him. I ended up ignoring all of the comments on here and just listened to our dog trainer. We worked with the parents of the child and now they are best friends. The child is very good around Howie and respects animals now - he also isn't as spoiled as he used to be, and Howie respects children a lot more because of it. He still is a bit scared of new children, though. Everyone on here was telling me to give the dog up or never bring him around this child again. We did the opposite and it worked out great. That's a whole different story, though. You obviously owned other dogs, so you probably have your go-to people.



esweetp said:


> She is cautious of anyone new at first and will not leave my side. She is smart and loves to learn new tricks. She does the standard sit, stay, shake, etc. But we also taught her to jump through the hoop, do the soldier (she crawls on her belly), and sit pretty.


Howie loves to meet new people, but is a bit cautious of new dogs. He will flip over and submit very quickly to a new dog. It's funny and cute. Howie also knows a lot of tricks. He does the normal sit, stay, lay down, wait, and all that. He also knows roll over, dance, shake, high 5, high 10, crawl (same as soldier) and stop. I taught him how to do stop. Basically when I walk with him, I get him to heel beside me. Then I say 'Stop', and he stops beside me and sits. This doesn't work well outside, though. Mostly just in the hallway on our way downstairs.



esweetp said:


> She does have little dog syndrome and feels that she can take her 15 lb body and beat up the next door husky who is about 90 lbs.


Haha, Howie likes to try to scare other dogs until they get close to him as well. He just has some bark to him. That's one thing we have a problem with. If he hears other people in the hall, he will run to the door and bark. If someone even knocks on our door, he flips out. Right up until that person is inside. Then he's right beside us barking (sometimes if he doesn't know the person) or he's licking their legs, haha. He's a licker.

She's 15lbs though? Howie was 12 at his highest. I think he's about 10-11 now though. He lost a bit of weight cause we had to switch him to wet food only. He has a very sensitive stomach, so the dry food sometimes doesn't agree with him and he will throw up quite a bit.



esweetp said:


> Beans is the first little dog I have ever had and she has been great. We love her!
> Thanks,
> Patti


Sounds like she's in good hands!

She looks a lot different than Howie, I'll say that. I'll see if I can find some more recent pictures of him. The pictures in here are much older, and he has changed A LOT since then.

.....

I found some more picutres. One is of him on our couch. Another is of him sleeping on my arm. The last one is of him falling asleep on the bathroom floor after a shower (he HAS to be in the bathroom when we shower).

Your dog sounds so similar to Howie, but they look quite different. She's very cute! I'm sure she's a bundle of joy!! Howie for sure is!!!


----------



## buttercup900 (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi, esweetp. Beans is absolutely precious! May I ask where you got her?


----------



## lucygoose (Feb 11, 2008)

dogbreedinfo is terrible!

All the pups are cute, precious! 

buttercup....pet store.....


----------



## esweetp (Oct 6, 2009)

Hi, esweetp. Beans is absolutely precious! May I ask where you got her

Hi! We actually got her from a pet store but we live in a very small town so the breeder lives next to us. It is nice because this way we knew she wasn't from a puppy mill. The breeder has the mom and dad. I live in Stanwood, Washington State. She has been a joy to have around. The only thing that drives me crazy is when someone new comes over she will bark at them a lot. She is getting better but it can be irriating. Otherwise she has been great. She is stubborn at times but I think that is just her personality. 

Thanks for the compliment, she is little lover.


----------



## hp1102 (Jul 3, 2010)

Does your neighbor still breed papillon/pugs (pugillon)? Please email me. 

Hilda


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hp- please don't go try to find a 'breeder' of these dogs and support a backyard breeder. They're mutts- mixed breed dogs that should not be being bred.


----------



## hp1102 (Jul 3, 2010)

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but I actually had one (looked very similar) and he was the best dog I ever had in my life. The disposition perfect, no problems at all -- the only thing that was not corrected by this breeding pair was the shedding. I am still in depression over my loss of the papillon/pug mixed dog. It is like having lost a child or a husband. I am desperate to find another one. Can't help it. Hilda


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

As desperate as you may be, you need to be responsible on the matter. You can go to a shelter and find a great dog- no need to support people breeding mutts for profit without cause.


----------



## hp1102 (Jul 3, 2010)

Oh by the way I forgot to mention that the dog was a mistake that happened and the lady actually was a pug breeder - she gave the "mistakes" away to good homes. But I would pay for one, if I can find one. Seems like this combination is not a "designer" breed. What was so good about my mix was he looked more like a pug, but not as husky and legs were more solid. He had no breathing problems. Also he was taller than a pug which was good. Was so obedient and eager to please. Never snatched food from kids or begged at the table even though the others did. I have a Jack and a Chihuahua also. I have always had purebreds prior to my pugillon ( whatever you call them).

So why are you so against this mixing of 2 purebreds if done carefully, controlled and meaningful, as in breeding 2 same purebreds? If not done by a puppy mill type operation, and the dogs are in demaind, what is wrong with this. The problems comes from operations that pump out the dogs like mad and they live in horrible conditions, etc. The lady who I got my mix from actually bred pugs in her home, but like I said she had a oops happen. But even so, she produced very fine dogs. I would never buy a dog through a pet store because (at least in the big cities) these dogs generally do not come from good breeders who care anything about the quality of the dogs.

Hilda


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hp1102 said:


> Oh by the way I forgot to mention that the dog was a mistake that happened and the lady actually was a pug breeder - she gave the "mistakes" away to good homes. But I would pay for one, if I can find one. Seems like this combination is not a "designer" breed. What was so good about my mix was he looked more like a pug, but not as husky and legs were more solid. He had no breathing problems. Also he was taller than a pug which was good. Was so obedient and eager to please. Never snatched food from kids or begged at the table even though the others did. I have a Jack and a Chihuahua also. I have always had purebreds prior to my pugillon ( whatever you call them).


If she let her dog breed with a papillon, then she was not a good breeder and I wouldn't have bought from her in the first place. A responsible breeder never would have let such a thing happen.

The point is, you should find a dog in a shelter that's perfect for you or buy a purebred dog from a reputable breeder, not a backyard breeder on the street selling mutts. That's a very irresponsible dog owning decision to make.

Oh, and if they're calling them pugillons, then they're a designer breed. Which really means they're making up a cute name to entice stupid pet owners to pay money to support them breeding mutts.


----------



## hp1102 (Jul 3, 2010)

I guess I cannot understand your point of view 100% (maybe 80%) and of course, I can tell that you did not read my last post very carefully, so I know you do not care about my point of view. I guess you think we should have kill off all the "mutts" in the world. Because if no one takes them, then what other choice is there. This issue has as much controversy as religion and politics. So I have no more to say on the matter. Enjoy your 4th and watch out for your dogs.

Hilda


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I believe I read your post just fine, and it's great that your previous dog was a good dog. 

But supporting people that breed mutts is just not something responsible pet owners do. The only reason someone should breed is to further the dog's breed- for a purpose that actually helps the dogs, and should always require contracts to make sure their pups never end up in a shelter. Backyard breeders that are breeding dogs like this don't breed healthy dogs, or purbred dogs, don't title their dogs, and because of people like these shelters are overrun with dogs that they're having to euthanize because of the overwhelming amount of them in shelters. Supporting a "breeder" like that is just supporting the euthanasia of tons of dogs in shelters everyday. 

I just don't see why you wouldn't want to go save a dog just like that (definitely possible to get the exact same breed mix) from a shelter, to help the shelter out, yourself out, and put an end to people breeding these mutts that overpopulate the planet with health problems, temperment problems, and babies.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

hp1102 said:


> So why are you so against this mixing of 2 purebreds if done carefully, controlled and meaningful, as in breeding 2 same purebreds? If not done by a puppy mill type operation, and the dogs are in demaind, what is wrong with this. The problems comes from operations that pump out the dogs like mad and they live in horrible conditions, etc. The lady who I got my mix from actually bred pugs in her home, but like I said she had a oops happen. But even so, she produced very fine dogs. I would never buy a dog through a pet store because (at least in the big cities) these dogs generally do not come from good breeders who care anything about the quality of the dogs.
> 
> Hilda


It's generally harder to find responsible breeders of mixed breed dogs. Not impossible, but most don't health test (it's a common misperception that health test and OFA are only for purebred dogs - they're not. ANY one can have it done) or show their dogs in any capacity. Part of that is limited opportunity, but there are more and more performance opportunities for mixed breed dogs. It's one thing to say, "oh, they vet says she's healthy and he has just the _best_ temprament," and quite another to say "Both the sire and the dam have Grade 1 patellas and here's their OFA numbers so you can check for yourself, and I'm sorry you can't meet the sire today because he's going for the last leg of his Open title at an Obedience trial." It's the outside verification of a dog's quality that ensures he has genes that will make good pups. It's one thing to say "I think he's great," and quite add, "and I have proof." Breeders are not split into puppy millers and good breeders, there's a spectrum.

Additionally, just because you loved your last Papillon x Pug, doesn't mean you'll get the same dog in another Papillon x Pug. You rarely get what you had in purebred dogs, where there is a long history of breeding to conformity. In a mixed breed, you never know how the genes will fall; there's a much greater level of unknown.


----------



## WeimLover (Jun 15, 2010)

borzoimom said:


> "In biology:
> Hybrid (biology), the offspring resulting from cross-breeding of different plants or animals. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid


From Biology-Online.org

Hybrid
Definition

noun, plural form: hybrids

(general) Any of mixed origin or composition, or the combination of two or more different things.

(biology) An offspring resulting from the cross between parents of different species or sub-species.


subspecies

A group somewhat lessdistinct than speciesusually are, but based on characters more important than those which characterise ordinary varieties; often, a geographical variety or race. (biology) a taxonomic group that is a division of a species; usually arises as a consequence of geographical isolation within a species.The most precise classification of organism. Our own species, **** sapiens sapiens is a prime example of a subspecies, which over time had diversified from **** sapiens and respective common ancestors.


It would appear the op is correct to call it a hybrid.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Breeds of dogs aren't different subspecies. Dogs and wolves are, which is why they can be called hybrids, but Papillons and Pugs are both _Canis lupus familiaris_.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

hp1102 said:


> I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but I actually had one (looked very similar) and he was the best dog I ever had in my life. The disposition perfect, no problems at all -- the only thing that was not corrected by this breeding pair was the shedding. I am still in depression over my loss of the papillon/pug mixed dog. It is like having lost a child or a husband. I am desperate to find another one. Can't help it. Hilda



I'm going to go slightly against the prevailing sentiment. I think that the goal of dogs finding good homes is to find them a home where they will live for the rest of their lives. I've seen people essentially be guilted into adopting a shelter dog instead of purchasing the purebred or mixed breed dog they truly wanted who never really bond with that shelter dog and aren't as committed to keeping the dog through thick and thin as they would be if they had gotten the dog they wanted in the first place. 

DJ, I am NOT trying to accuse you of trying to make people feel guilty, I know that your opinions come from sincere strong beliefs about adoption and in general I agree with you. I just also think that people feel how they feel and that it's not ideal for someone to try to force themselves to love a dog on principle. 

Having said that, hp1102, you have to realize that a papillon-pug is a mix, not a breed. If you lined up 10 papillon-pugs, or 10 cockapoos, or 10 doodles, you might see 10 completely different dogs. I know that you loved your dog, but you're not guaranteed to have another dog of the same mix that acts or looks the same even if it's the same mix. If you can try to be open to considering individual dogs with the characteristics you like but who happen to be other breeds or mixes, you might find one you love as much as you loved your pap-pug.


----------



## WeimLover (Jun 15, 2010)

Wow, that is SO harsh. You do realize that your attacking posts probably don't change anyones mind, don't you? Maybe even quite the opposite. You probably drive far more people away then you have ever converted. If these people stuck around, maybe in time, by hearing the message over and over, and hearing the horror stories that can occur with irresponsible breedings, they might change their minds. I pretty much share your opinions, with some small caveats, but I know if you tried to hit me over the head with that brick your wielding, it would surely make me ignore just about any message you're trying send. 

Here is my caveat, at one time all pure bread dogs we're cross breeds. I know that as late as 1987, a new breed was being developed in Germany. I am sure that is still the case today in other countries. And before you pick up your brick again, yeah I know, there is a difference between creating a new breed responsibly and just breeding two dogs together willy-nilly to make a ton of money. But the breeds we know and love today had to start somewhere. If memory serves, None of them are natural dogs without any cross breeding in their backgrounds.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

WeimLover said:


> Wow, that is SO harsh. You do realize that your attacking posts probably don't change anyones mind, don't you?


You're talking to me? I think you read a LOT more into my post than what was said if you think I was being harsh or wielding a brick. :shrug: 

Yes, all our modern purebreds started out as crossbreeds. But currently crosses like pap-pugs and doodles are not breeds and do not have consistent enough temperaments or appearances to count on one being like another. How is that harsh?


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

WeimLover said:


> Here is my caveat, at one time all pure bread dogs we're cross breeds. I know that as late as 1987, a new breed was being developed in Germany. I am sure that is still the case today in other countries. And before you pick up your brick again, yeah *I know, there is a difference between creating a new breed responsibly and just breeding two dogs together willy-nilly to make a ton of money.* But the breeds we know and love today had to start somewhere. If memory serves, None of them are natural dogs without any cross breeding in their backgrounds.


Precisely. The issue is not the dogs themselves, but the manner of their production. There are excellent mixed breed breeders. There are crappy purebred breeders. One does not cancel out the other.



> Yes, I see my mistake there. You're correct.


Good of you to see that.


----------



## WeimLover (Jun 15, 2010)

sorry sassafras, not you. someone else in this thread. I meant to quote but I guess I messed that up somehow. No need to call them out at this point I guess.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

WeimLover said:


> sorry sassafras, not you. someone else in this thread. I meant to quote but I guess I messed that up somehow. No need to call them out at this point I guess.


Whew! I was trying so hard to be tactful, too, so I was confused!


----------



## WeimLover (Jun 15, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Precisely. The issue is not the dogs themselves, but the manner of their production. There are excellent mixed breed breeders. There are crappy purebred breeders. One does not cancel out the other.
> 
> 
> 
> Good of you to see that.



No mistake in that post at all except posting that I made a mistake. The mistake I was referring to was the hybrid vs cross breed post I made and I see my mistake there. I believe the correct term is cross breed not hybrid.



sassafras said:


> Whew! I was trying so hard to be tactful, too, so I was confused!



And did a darn good job of it too. Probably better then I did. 



RaeganW said:


> Precisely. The issue is not the dogs themselves, but the manner of their production. There are excellent mixed breed breeders. There are crappy purebred breeders. One does not cancel out the other.


Totally agree, but there are those here who think any cross breeding is irresponsible. Just trying to point out, that is not always the case. Definitely not trying to defend the irresponsible at all.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

You all DO realize this thread is more than TWO years old, for that reason it's being closed.


----------

