# Vegan Dogs...What?!



## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

Soo I've been switching to being vegan for health issues have worsened and I decided to hop on a forum for food help. They have a pet forum and people were talking about vegan dogs/cats and I was a bit shocked, and frankly (not trying to be rude) disturbed at the thought of imposing a human ethics/life choice onto a animal. I was getting upset at reading of all the people with "guilt" over having to give their cat canned meat products because the cat can't do vegan. 

Can someone educate me on if this is even nutritionally sound? Does anyone here know of animals who thrive on this or is it more like how a dog can live on Pedigree vs. thriving and getting a 5 star food?

Also a few talk about wanting to know of animal testing practices and who doesn't animal test foods? Umm...I didn't know this was an ethics issues as don't we need to give critters a taste test? I don't see how that is like putting lipsticks on pigs or trying shampoo on a rat. They're gonna eat this stuff so isn't this more like a reward type task? 

My mind is really blown.


----------



## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

not all companys animal test foods by juts feeding them, some companys feed the foods for a few years then kill the animals and disect them to "test" how the animals insides are handling the food. 

as for Vegan diets for animals.... NOT OK for a cat under any circumstances, but I have seen dogs that do VERY well on vegan dog foods. from the results I have seen, I would much rather see a dog eating a vegan kibble then eating ol roy or pedigree. we had a group of 3 dogs stay with us for a while, about a month ago, 2 of the dogs ate ol roy, 1 ate vegan..the dog that ate the vegan food was so shiny, sleek and full of life compared to the 2 that ate the ol roy, they were slow and lethargic and their coats looked awful.


----------



## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

I absolutely agree that human ethics should not be imposed on animals in this fashion. Just because humans can live on a vegan diet does not mean that animals like the cat, who is an obligate carnivore, can. In my opinion, if you are not okay with feeding a cat meat even in the form of kibble then you should not own a cat. Dogs are a little different because they can digest plant matter better than cats but I really do not think its okay to cut out meat entirely from a dog's diet because even if they are not obligate carnivores animal proteins are still an important part of their diet. At least I would not switch a dog to a vegan diet without talking to an animal nutritionists. Even going vegan as a human takes a lot of planning and making sure you know your body and its nutritional needs.


----------



## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

If it's done, it'd best be done right, like with any feeding, I guess. The only experience I have with this is a Bernese that was the house dog at a temple my daughter worked at; she was the house chef and lived in the chef's quarter's. That poor dog was fed a very strict homemade, organic, vegan diet and he looked like he was half dead. They obviously weren't doing it right.


----------



## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

all the dogs I have seen eating a vegan food, has been becuse that dog was allergic to meat. the first dog I ever met like this was a golden ret. the poor owners had tried everything, raw, cooked, novel, allergy foods etc.. the only thing the dog could eat without getting very very sick was a vegan kibble. I have met a few other dogs that had the same issue...every last one was a Dalmatian. frankly if we are breeding dogs that cannot tolerate meat..there is something seriously wrong!!


----------



## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> I would much rather see a dog eating a vegan kibble then eating ol roy or pedigree.


I TOTALLY agree.

I am vegetarian and personally don't impose my dietary restrictions on my dogs, but given the choice of a high-end Vegetarian dog food compared to... Beneful? Or Ol' Roy? I would ABSOLUTELY feed them Veg. Hands down.

Jen


----------



## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Miss Bugs said:


> all the dogs I have seen eating a vegan food, has been becuse that dog was allergic to meat. the first dog I ever met like this was a golden ret. the poor owners had tried everything, raw, cooked, novel, allergy foods etc.. the only thing the dog could eat without getting very very sick was a vegan kibble. I have met a few other dogs that had the same issue...every last one was a Dalmatian. frankly if we are breeding dogs that cannot tolerate meat..there is something seriously wrong!!


I vaguely remember a thread on the topic of vegan dalmations. I can't remember the health issues that make this diet necessary though.

PETA pushes this for dogs and cats(ya know, right before they are eliminated as companion animals).

I wouldn't do it. Eventually, my dogs will switch from TOTW to raw. I need to do research and figure out the costs but it will happen.
And I've even found the place that has all the meats I could ever want for them; they have the usual: chicken, beef, etc. and the unusual: bison, venison, etc.

I am a vegetarian. Always have been. I decided in fourth grade that I wanted to be one. My father was pissed! I sat at the table for hours and hours staring at whatever meat product he had prepared until he gave up and sent me to bed.
I was vegan for just over a year. OMG, I felt awesome! When I was running, it felt like effortless gliding. I want that back but I don't have the self-discipline right now.


----------



## casey15 (Sep 24, 2011)

The_Monstors said:


> Soo I've been switching to being vegan for health issues have worsened and I decided to hop on a forum for food help. They have a pet forum and people were talking about vegan dogs/cats and I was a bit shocked, and frankly (not trying to be rude) disturbed at the thought of imposing a human ethics/life choice onto a animal. I was getting upset at reading of all the people with "guilt" over having to give their cat canned meat products because the cat can't do vegan.
> 
> Can someone educate me on if this is even nutritionally sound? Does anyone here know of animals who thrive on this or is it more like how a dog can live on Pedigree vs. thriving and getting a 5 star food?
> 
> ...



Feeding animals on a vegan diet, is not at all healthy for them, dog's and cats were designed to be meat eators. While it's true that some pets can do well on vegan diets, like people they would need to have good vitamins and substitutions in place. I think people who try to make their pets vegan need to seriously reavualte thier decisions.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I can't remember the health issues that make this diet necessary though.


Urinary stones. Big issue in the breed (which is being rectified).


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Even if I wanted to, I can't BC Izze is allergic to grains so she has to have grain free. I have to stay grain free, plus Izze is a "meat & potatoes" dog, I dont think she would eat vegan lol lol. That "guilty" attitude sounds very PETA-esque to me :/


----------



## amosmoses89 (Jun 19, 2011)

@dogdragoness

Do you know if ACDs are more likely than other dogs to be allergic to grains? I know several, including my SO's ACD mix that are allergic to them. Just a thought!!


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

Dogs and cats are carnivores. 'Nuff said.

amosmoses, I don't know if ACD's are likely to be allergic to grains, my gut goes against it because I know quite a few that aren't allergic to grains including my own pride and joy Lady.


----------



## a7dk (Mar 30, 2011)

Cats are obligate carnivores, and they really do need to eat meat. Dogs are omnivores, like humans. It can be perfectly safe and healthy to feed a dog a vegan diet, but not a cat. 

I am a vegetarian (not vegan) but I don't make my dog eat veg because the best dog foods that I have found include meat. If I ever become aware of a vegetarian dog food that is every bit as healthy as what we feed him now, maybe I'll switch.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

If the vegis have all the nutrients the dog needs and if the dog can handle the fiber load, that diet would be successful for the dog. But I'm sure for many dogs, that's a big IF.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

a7dk said:


> Dogs are omnivores, like humans.



No, no their not. Look at the teeth, dogs have carnivore teeth. Look at the digestive system, dogs have carnivore digestive system. Inside and out, dogs are physically carnivores. To say a dog is an omnivore makes me cringe. I would even say that unless your dog is an extremely rare case and has a meat allergy, then it may even be abuse to feed your dog a vegetarian diet. But that's just my opinion.
Heres a few links that support my point.
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/
http://www.suzysdoggiedelights.us/Common_Myths.htm

I'm not against vegetarian diets for humans, that all fine and dandy, but dogs don't have that choice, don't make them go against their physiology and make them eat a vegetarian diet.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Is animal-derived protein superior to plant-derived protein? I seriously doubt it. As long as the protein and fat requirements are met I'm sure a dog can do fine on a vegan diet. Do I want to be the person to have to mess around with micromanaging those nutrients to properly feed my dogs a vegan diet? Noooooo.

I'm not sure there is such a thing as "omnivore teeth". Raccoons are omnivores, and they don't have "herbivore teeth". Humans are omnivores, and we don't have "carnivore teeth". *shrug*


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I'm not sure there is such a thing as "omnivore teeth". Raccoons are omnivores, and they don't have "herbivore teeth". Humans are omnivores, and we don't have "carnivore teeth". *shrug*


In layman's terms. Herbivores have flatter teeth, made for grinding. Look in the mouth of your dog. They would be useless for grinding. Carnivores have teeth made for ripping and chomping meat, yet cattle and horses and other herbavores have teeth for grinding plants. Their teeth are flat and perfect for grinding from front to back. Humans are omnivores, they have a bit of both, look in your own mouth, we have the grinding teeth in back and the chomping/ripping teeth in front.

The physiology behind omnivore vs herbivore vs carnivores is very intriguing. Our insides are different and our outsides are different.


> Is animal-derived protein superior to plant-derived protein?


Again, in layman's terms (because frankly I don't know enough of the pro terms to put it in that phrasing)
They are different proteins, why is why you cant feed a cat (who is an obligate carnivore) plant based proteins. It also has to do with how dog saliva isn't natural for breaking down the plants like it does the meat and their digestive track is shorter and plants don't have enough time to break apart which is why (I think) dogs fed diets based on plants and grains have much larger poops than dogs fed meat. Their bodies aren't meant to handle plants and plant aren't digested as well. They are digested a bit, not not nearly to the extent of meat.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Is animal-derived protein superior to plant-derived protein? I seriously doubt it. As long as the protein and fat requirements are met I'm sure a dog can do fine on a vegan diet. Do I want to be the person to have to mess around with micromanaging those nutrients to properly feed my dogs a vegan diet? Noooooo.
> 
> I'm not sure there is such a thing as "omnivore teeth". Raccoons are omnivores, and they don't have "herbivore teeth". Humans are omnivores, and we don't have "carnivore teeth". *shrug*


Animal protein and plant protein are completely different.. just saying... And there's more to it than just protein and fat. There's a whole mess of other stuff that comes along with the plant based protein, too.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

KodiBarracuda said:


> In layman's terms. Herbivores have flatter teeth, made for grinding. Look in the mouth of your dog. They would be useless for grinding. Carnivores have teeth made for ripping and chomping meat, yet cattle and horses and other herbavores have teeth for grinding plants. Their teeth are flat and perfect for grinding from front to back. Humans are omnivores, they have a bit of both, look in your own mouth, we have the grinding teeth in back and the chomping/ripping teeth in front.


Yea I dig the difference between herbivores and carnivores -- and I don't know about you, but my canine teeth look nothing like a carnivore's canine teeth so I'd bed to differ that I have "a bit of both". And again, what about omnivores like raccoons or bears? If you were looking at their teeth only I'm sure you'd call them carnivores, but they certainly are not. 



> They are different proteins, why is why you cant feed a cat (who is an obligate carnivore) plant based proteins. It also has to do with how dog saliva isn't natural for breaking down the plants like it does the meat and their digestive track is shorter and plants don't have enough time to break apart which is why (I think) dogs fed diets based on plants and grains have much larger poops than dogs fed meat. Their bodies aren't meant to handle plants and plant aren't digested as well. They are digested a bit, not not nearly to the extent of meat.


Protein is protein, all proteins are made from the same amino acids. As long as a balance of amino acids is available, my body, or yours, or a cat's, or a dog's, can't tell whether protein came from a bean or a mouse. You are incorrect about cats - they need taurine in their diet because they cannot synthesize taurine from other amino acids like other species can, not because plant protein is any different than animal protein. If I never ate a scrap of meat, I wouldn't need taurine supplemented in my diet and neither would my dog, because we can make our own from other amino acids in our diet. But my cats can't.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Nargle said:


> Animal protein and plant protein are completely different..


How are they actually different? Are they structurally different? Are they nutritionally different? As long as the amount of amino acids in the diet are balanced, how is animal protein superior to plant based proteins?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

But obligate carnivores (really really obligate like ferrets; cats can get some use from plant protein) can't make any use of plant protein. They have no way to digest it (no cecum). A ferret fed a diet with no meat protein will fade and die. A ferret fed a diet with a only a small amount of animal protein will look and feel pretty crummy. I suppose if they did something to the plant protein--maybe hydrolyzed it or something--a ferret might manage. But otherwise, it doesn't matter what balance of amino acids the plant-based food has, a ferret just can't utilize it.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> But obligate carnivores (really really obligate like ferrets; cats can get some use from plant protein) can't make any use of plant protein. They have no way to digest it (no cecum). A ferret fed a diet with no meat protein will fade and die. A ferret fed a diet with a only a small amount of animal protein will look and feel pretty crummy. I suppose if they did something to the plant protein--maybe hydrolyzed it or something--a ferret might manage. But otherwise, it doesn't matter what balance of amino acids the plant-based food has, a ferret just can't utilize it.


Is that because there is something about the protein itself, or because the protein is inaccessible to them in some way or because, like cats, there is something essential in the animal protein they can't make? Or because of something that has nothing to do with protein whatsoever but is found in meat? I have no idea, I know nothing about ferrets. I really only threw my comment about cats in there because the taurine thing was stated incorrectly, I didn't mean to group obligate carnivores in with dogs.

Honestly, I'm just kind of being devil's advocate because I wouldn't ever really advocate a vegan diet, but blanket statements that it just can't be done for dogs make me kind of peevey because, well... protein is protein. Unless someone can demonstrate to me how protein derived from plant sources is different than protein derived form animal sources to a dog, who is not an obligate carnivore. 

(I'm kind of focusing on protein here because it's the part I'm peevey about. I understand that there are other macro and micro nutrients necessary in the diet but I'm not convinced that for a dog they necessarily must come from animal sources, either).


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Actually Sassafras, bears do have different teeth than straight carnivores, with large canines and flat molars for crushing plant matter. With the exception of having much larger canines, their teeth are very similar to ours. Raccoons teeth are very much the same, flat molars, sharp canines that are slightly less well developed than true carnivores.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Huh, yeah, look at this raccoon skull: http://courses.washington.edu/vertebra/452/photos/mammals/raccoon_skull_ventral.jpg 
And a bear: http://www.museevirtuel-virtualmuse...ads/image/girzzly_callout_ventral_english.jpg
Interesting.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ah, I stand corrected. I was looking at the big shiny canines.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

No worries. . And, as far as humans not having large canines, well, it's been a rather long time since we've had to run our prey down and bite it to death. Makes sense that ours would be smaller, but, we do still have canines, which herbivores do not have. Oh, just wanted to add, the International Wolf Centre has wolves listed as carnivores, not omnivores. I'd post the link, but I'm on my phone and can't right now.


----------



## blues327 (May 2, 2011)

From what I've read, animal proteins are considered a complete protein source because they contain a complete amino acid profile, while plant proteins are incomplete with amino acid profiles that are lacking different amino acids. Since the incomplete amino acid profile for plant proteins can vary, you have to combine different plant protein sources to create a complete amino acid profile. 

Apparently a dog's (carnivore) pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose in plant matter into glucose molecules, which would mean they wouldn't utilize and digest plant matter very efficiently. Plant matter like soy, grains, some starches also contain phytic acid which possibly can block the uptake of calcium, magnesium, iron, zinc and iodine, however cooking or soaking in water can get rid of some of the phytic acid.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

IMO, if you're going to feed your pet a vegetarian diet based on YOUR ethical choices, you really should own a wabbit.


----------



## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> And, as far as humans not having large canines, well, it's been a rather long time since we've had to run our prey down and bite it to death.


For you maybe... Mwa ah ahh.


Oh, forgot I'm still a vegetarian. Nevermind.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Tofu_pup said:


> For you maybe... Mwa ah ahh.
> 
> 
> Oh, forgot I'm still a vegetarian. Nevermind.


Don't try to deny it! I saw you run down that tomato and bite it to death! You savage.

Yep, bunnies are good vegetarian pets. And tortoises.


----------



## Maxie'sMum (Nov 13, 2011)

Here are 2 Australian vegan dog foods that contain sufficient protein and are supplemented with carnitine and/or taurine to ensure the correct amino acid balance. I have tasted both and they are yummy! Veganpet is my favourite (I mean, if I were to find myself in a situation where I had to eat dog food lol)
http://http://www.biopetonline.com.au/index.html
http://http://veganpet.com.au/articles/

There is also a recent study comparing 2 groups of working sled dogs; one on a meat diet and one on a meat-free diet, both conducting the same amount of work.
Unfortunately the link woudl not work when I tested it. But if you google scholar it:
http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&q=An%20experimental%20meat-free%20diet%20maintained%20haematological%20characteristics%20in%20sprint-racing%20sled%20dogs&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=1693l1693l0l3722l1l1l0l0l0l0l320l320l3-1l1l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1244&bih=679&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=ws

And an interesting paper on the nutritional and ethical issues related to feeding your dog a vegetarian diet.
http://www.une.edu.au/ers/staff-profile-doc-folders/wendy-brown/brown-raan-2009-vegetarian-dog.pdf


----------



## WheatenDaneMom (Nov 4, 2011)

I am not a vegan but I thought one of the biggest concerns was getting enough protein in... a high energy / training / agility dog needs quite a bit of protein.


----------



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I severely dislike the idea of anyone pushing their personal beliefs on their pets. For a cat I believe it is borderline abuse, for a dog... It's just not fair. A dog may _survive_ on a vegan diet but is it really thriving? I'm sure if a dog ate nothing but garbage it would survive as well. 

This link has some interesting information about how vegetarian diets (commercial and homemade) can be lacking in certain nutrients despite being carefully formulated:
Vegetarian Diet


Unless the dog has a rare case of being SEVERELY allergic to almost all meat proteins, I don't think ANY dog deserves to be fed a meat deprived diet.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the ability to digest cellulose is more of a qualifying factor then dentition. how much nutrients is that body plan set up to derive. there are also behaviors associated woth it. dogs act like they do because they are carnivores. they also are chemically and phsyically set up to digest and derive high quantities of nutrient from animal sources. they do not digest plant material very well. to actually have any gain or benefit from a plant based diet, the food has to be processed to the extent that it basically has been digested for them. A few dogs with health co ditions doesnt change that. neither does the fact that we have the ability to process their food for them change it. theyre carnivores. 

can it be done? sure. should it be done? maybe. context and dedication are big factors imo. will i do it? ummm. . . no. kthx. not unless preservation of my dog's life demanded it. ever seen a vegetarian dog around meat? its sad enough to be funny.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

also plus one on this. . . 



blues327 said:


> From what I've read, animal proteins are considered a complete protein source because they contain a complete amino acid profile, while plant proteins are incomplete with amino acid profiles that are lacking different amino acids. Since the incomplete amino acid profile for plant proteins can vary, you have to combine different plant protein sources to create a complete amino acid profile.
> 
> Apparently a dog's (carnivore) pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose in plant matter into glucose molecules, which would mean they wouldn't utilize and digest plant matter very efficiently. Plant matter like soy, grains, some starches also contain phytic acid which possibly can block the uptake of calcium, magnesium, iron, zinc and iodine, however cooking or soaking in water can get rid of some of the phytic acid.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

There are very few animals that actually digest cellulose. As far as I know they are all tiny critters that live in the gut of animals such as termites and ungulates like cows. Cellulose is excreted as part of the fiber found in stool. Herbivores are designed to grind the cellulose containing cell wall open so the contents can be digested more than digest cellulose. Dogs aren't designed to grind food down so fresh natural plant foods are nearly completely indigestible for them.
http://science.jrank.org/pages/1335/Cellulose-Cellulose-digestion.html 

Cooking and or grinding them does make those nutrients available. The vegetarian pet diets are made of highly processed plant parts with those cellulose cell walls broken down and the nutrients ARE available plus they are highly fortified the same way meaty kibbles are with loads of minerals and vitamins to make an acceptable diet for some dogs. I have no doubt that such kibbles completely meet the AAFCO standards for dog food and that some dogs can do just fine on such stuff. I also suspect some dogs fed such stuff are smelly, have ear infections, really gunky teeth, nasty fur and skin and so on. My dog would be smelly, have nasty ears, teeth, fur and skin on that sort of food.


----------



## Dezzoi (Sep 19, 2011)

WTH?
The things people do.
I had friends like this. They wanted me to switch my dogs to vegan foods because they believed in that. So sick...
I'm glad I just stick to real meat for my dogs like chicken and beef and organs. 

The only time I think a dog should have this sort of diet (vegan or whatever) is if the dog is allergic to meats or something or if the dog's natural preference...NOT the humans.


----------



## Maxie'sMum (Nov 13, 2011)

> I also suspect some dogs fed such stuff are smelly, have ear infections, really gunky teeth, nasty fur and skin and so on. My dog would be smelly, have nasty ears, teeth, fur and skin on that sort of food.


Kathyy, could you elaborate on the fact behind this statement please?

It is wise, as Brown (2009) points out (I provided the scientific resource in my previous post), it is best to consider the facts.

_In the case of dogs, vegetarianism should be viewed from a nutritional perspective: 
1) Does the diet meet the animal’s nutritional needs? 
2) Is the diet sufficiently palatable to ensure adequate intake?
3) When fed the diet, is the animal in good health? _

If the answer to all of these questions is yes, then any objections to the diet would have to be construed as being based on prejudice.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Max gets gunky eyes if fed grain. Stole a slice of toast, amazing eye boogers!
Max has nasty fur if he doesn't get LOTS of fat. He hated to go through fields of weeds as everything stuck to his fur when he ate kibble.
Max had nasty teeth on kibble. 
Max gets gunky ears if fed grain. I thought his ear wax was dark brown, nope a few shades lighter.

He would be nourished just fine on a soy and grain filled vegan diet but probably be miserable due to the extra substances in the plant foods used. He had no issues keeping weight on when he ate kibble.

Max doesn't get grain. His teeth are clean, eyes clear, fur shiny and silky and ears are clean. 

That is my dog, possibly plenty of dogs have clear eyes, ears, teeth and nice fur on such stuff.

Oh, he gained pounds of muscle and his temperament improved on a no carbohydrate diet.


----------



## luvmyboyz (Nov 9, 2011)

YIKES!!!! Ah! There's no way around it. Dogs are carnivores and need meat to live. I'm shocked, and very concerned to see so many people backing up "vegan diets for dogs"!!! Feeding them any differently than the way they are built to eat/live, is animal abuse IMO. It cannot be argued that dogs are carnivores, their entire anatomy proves this.


----------



## trashisart (Oct 18, 2011)

The vegan pet thing makes me feel a little freaked out. I mean I've researched it before just to see what info there was on it but I think it's a bit out there. I'm vegan myself and a while ago when my pup was having some tummy trouble I had to do the boiled chicken rice thing for few days and was surprised that I had no problem cooking chicken up for him. I do get "anal" about it being organic/free range and what not, same with his training treats (and food being high quality) but end up feeling good in the long run about the quality of food/treats he is getting and knowing it will benefit him. I don't think I'd ever push my personal beliefs on my pup. 
I don't judge people that feed there dogs a vegan diet if it's working for their dog but I just wouldn't do it.


----------



## MusherChic (Nov 6, 2010)

> Soo I've been switching to being vegan for health issues have worsened and I decided to hop on a forum for food help. They have a pet forum and people were talking about vegan dogs/cats and I was a bit shocked, and frankly (not trying to be rude) disturbed at the thought of imposing a human ethics/life choice onto a animal. I was getting upset at reading of all the people with "guilt" over having to give their cat canned meat products because the cat can't do vegan.
> 
> Can someone educate me on if this is even nutritionally sound? Does anyone here know of animals who thrive on this or is it more like how a dog can live on Pedigree vs. thriving and getting a 5 star food?
> 
> ...


Sounds like you ran into a group of PETA enthusiasts. lol 

I guess in certain cases it would be alright for a dog to be on a vegan diet. I'm not even sure what those cases would be but I'm not going to say "No, it can't/shouldn't be done ever,"
I totally agree with you on the subject of people forcing their own life choices on animals. It's kind of a funny contradiction (in the PETA world anyway), they want animals to have rights yet they force their own ideas on their dog. Not much of a "right" there, huh?


----------



## MusherChic (Nov 6, 2010)

> There is also a recent study comparing 2 groups of working sled dogs; one on a meat diet and one on a meat-free diet, both conducting the same amount of work.
> Unfortunately the link woudl not work when I tested it. But if you google scholar it:
> http://scholar.google.com.au/scholar...-8&sa=N&tab=ws


This is quite interesting. The experiment was conducted in Australia though...I wonder if the results would have differed if they were testing dogs in a colder climate?? Iditarod dogs consume up to 10,000 calories a day during the race season. Can you get that many calories from a meat-free diet?


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Of course, you can just pack on the oil. That is the only way a meat based diet has enough calories as well but hoping it is in the form of fatty meat not high omega 6 oils.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

This depends on how much do you love your dog and if you want your dog to be happy and healthy. However, here are a couple of examples with dogs fed only vegetarian diet. The first one is in China. This is done not because of ideology of veganism; it is just practical approach, a tradition of eating meat of dogs. Dogs are kept in cages to be butchered for meat and pelts. They are fed rice and become very fat. Most of the dogs are butchered by age of 9 months. They are not required to do any physical or other performance, do not have names and are not exercised. Just dog farming. Another example is with dogs of Pacific islanders, before they had been invaded by Europeans. On some islands dog were fed only taro root. Here, dogs were butchred for meat, as well as pigs. Polynesians took pigs and dogs in their boats, when the moved and populated Oceania. Dog's teeth and digestion physiology is adapted like in a typical predator. Ask you dog, if it likes to live on vegetarian food only. Diligent observations will tell you the truth about dog's preferences.


----------



## AugiesMomn (Nov 19, 2011)

Yeah, I wouldn't do it unless necessary, and even then, I'd do tons of research on it. 

As it is, I think of it as what the dog would prefer if he chose his own food (i.e., what would a wolf eat in the wild?). I feed my dogs carrots and they like them, but they sure don't compare to something like chicken. Dogs are carnivores and predatory animals, so I think they should eat meat as housepets as well. Besides nutritional concerns, I just feel it's not right to push your dietary beliefs on an animal who would almost certainly choose meat over vegetable foods, if given the choice.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

I completely agree with you, AngiesMomn (did I spell it correctly?). I would add even more. Raw meats is more then just food. Teeth of many domesticated dogs tend to degenerate and so are bones of jaws and muscles of the head. Can you imagine how much work do wild canids eating their prey animals? Just opening of the belly of a deer or other big animal is very hard. This is one reason why wolves have powerful neck, jaws and teeth. I am a zoologist by profession and I always watch how my dogs eat. Perhaps, eating tough and tasty food is much enjoyable to the dog. This is why I give my dogs big chunks of deer neck or other parts so they could tear meat and skin, eating it slowly. This is how their teeth become very clean after a long period of eating kibble. Interesting that some dogs eat piecefully together out of one bawl, if you feed them kibble, like herbivores. Give them a chunk of raw meat... No way! Better to feed each dog separated by some distance to prevent fighting. Of course, my dogs eat it outside, on the grass. It is messy, deer hairs are seen everywhere. We have a deer hunting season now. Of course, all unfinished bones or meat should be removed. Some dogs would hide and guard them, causing troubles needlessly.


----------



## AugiesMomn (Nov 19, 2011)

> did I spell it correctly?


I'm the one who misspelled it, haha... Accidentally hit the "n" there and didn't want to redo it. ^_^

But yes, I just feel like denying them meat would be depriving them, even if they will eat veggies. I agree that chewing tough stuff is probably enjoyable for them too, or that's why they also like chewing toys and chew snacks. It's good jaw exercise and they seem to love chewing.

As for eating peacefully if it's kibble, yes, that is an interesting thought, too. Mine wouldn't dream of fighting over kibble, but they sure wouldn't be willing to share real meat with each other. Same with any animal part, they guard them and they just seem to value them much more.


----------



## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

If you dont want a carnivorous pet, stick with rabbits or guinea pigs.


----------



## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

One of my friends is vegan, and has implied that she wants her (future) dog to be vegan so they "can enjoy meals together!"

This is the best site I've found so far that clearly states why its probably not the best choice of diet for a dog. In the end, though, it is based upon the owner. 

I wouldn't personally have a vegan canine, as it voids a major part of the animals natural diet. But, if it is done responsibly, and the pet actually does well on it, then I have no real issue. Its definitely not something to be taken lightly.


----------



## luvmyboyz (Nov 9, 2011)

Like BlueChaos said...if someone isn't comfortable feeding a dog/carnivore meat....then they should get a different pet, and find a home where their dog can be fed properly. SO scary to see people say that a vegan diet is even possible for a dog/carnivore. Saying that a dog can "do fine" on a vegan diet is like saying I can "do fine" on eating only candy...my body would be missing out on EVERYTHING that it needs.

Carnivores need meat. Vegan is a human choice, dogs don't have that choice. Feed dogs meat for the dogs sake.


----------



## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

luvmyboyz said:


> Like BlueChaos said...if someone isn't comfortable feeding a dog/carnivore meat....then they should get a different pet, and find a home where their dog can be fed properly. SO scary to see people say that a vegan diet is even possible for a dog/carnivore. Saying that a dog can "do fine" on a vegan diet is like saying I can "do fine" on eating only candy...my body would be missing out on EVERYTHING that it needs.
> 
> Carnivores need meat. Vegan is a human choice, dogs don't have that choice. Feed dogs meat for the dogs sake.


.... except that dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

marsha=whitie said:


> .... except that dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores.


Disagree, but I have debated this before and its pointless to do it again, see earlier pages.


----------



## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

KodiBarracuda said:


> Disagree, but I have debated this before and its pointless to do it again, see earlier pages.


Dogs are not obligatory carnivores, and are able to digest plant matter. So no, they are not strictly carnivorous, though meat does make up most of their natural diet.


Not the best site, but it sums it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog


> Despite their descent from wolves and classification as Carnivora, dogs are variously described in scholarly and other writings as carnivores or omnivores. Unlike obligate carnivores, such as the cat family with its shorter small intestine, dogs can adapt to a wide-ranging diet, and are not dependent on meat-specific protein nor a very high level of protein in order to fulfill their basic dietary requirements. Dogs will healthily digest a variety of foods, including vegetables and grains, and can consume a large proportion of these in their diet.


http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/

http://healthydogfoodguides.com/are-dogs-omnivores-or-carnivores/


----------



## Papa Deuce (Mar 26, 2007)

To lighten this up, well, my puppy will eat ANYTHING..... and I mean ANYTHING if it is food.

Her name is Pepper. I came in from being outside with a neighbor chatting, only to find that she had eaten THREE *HUGE* red bell peppers yesterday that I was planning to stuff for dinner. These peppers all together weighed close to 2 pounds. And NOTHING ever bothers her stomach.


----------



## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

Papa Deuce said:


> To lighten this up, well, my puppy will eat ANYTHING..... and I mean ANYTHING if it is food.
> 
> Her name is Pepper. I came in from being outside with a neighbor chatting, only to find that she had eaten THREE *HUGE* red bell peppers yesterday that I was planning to stuff for dinner. These peppers all together weighed close to 2 pounds. And NOTHING ever bothers her stomach.


Lucky. Bryna got ahold of some spaghetti in the trash once and litterally sprayed black poop all over my apartment. Its stained my carpet. O_O


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Yea I dig the difference between herbivores and carnivores -- and I don't know about you, but my canine teeth look nothing like a carnivore's canine teeth so I'd bed to differ that I have "a bit of both". And again, what about omnivores like raccoons or bears? If you were looking at their teeth only I'm sure you'd call them carnivores, but they certainly are not.


Coming to the party late lol. So much good stuff has been said, I only want to jump in on this.

We do indeed have omivore teeth. There is some interesting work where scientists have taken molds of early hominid later hominid and **** sapien teeth and used these molds in a machine that reproduces anatomically correct chewing. They have concluded early hominids were not meat eaters. There teeth kind of mashed the meat. Our teeth have sharp edges even on our molars that slice meat as well as having flatish surfaces for grinding up plant cell walls.

Dogs do not have the plant chewing teeth. If you feed them raw vegtables it comes out the other end pretty much the same way it went in. Wikipedia is NOT a good source. I am sure if you cook the plants enough they can digest it, (see horse example) but that doesn't make it ideal. Its a survival trait. 

Horses can digest meat, and historically in come cultures there were fed meat. No one tries to say its a great feed stuff for them though. Same with dogs, they are clearly carnivores, their teeth show it, and their short digestive tract shows it. (carnivores have short tracts, herbivores long ones, and ominivores in between)

As for amino acids. Sure IF you can get all the essential amino acids from plants. But what about the stuff that comes along that you don't want. YOu don't want high carb diets for dogs. And there are more things in foods than just amino acids. In many cases the vitamins etc that they add in are less bio available than those naturally occuring in a more natural diet. There is that issue to with people taking vitamin pills, you have to watch to make sure they are biologically available or its a waste of money.


----------



## luvmyboyz (Nov 9, 2011)

marsha=whitie said:


> .... except that dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores.





marsha=whitie said:


> Dogs are not obligatory carnivores[/URL]


Dogs are definitely not omnivores, but they are not obligatory carnivores either. They are carnivores. 
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
http://www.vetbalance.com/index.php?/carnivore-vs.-omnivore.html
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/
http://positively.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11062
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnivore


----------



## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

luvmyboyz said:


> Dogs are definitely not omnivores, but they are not obligatory carnivores either. They are carnivores.
> http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
> http://www.vetbalance.com/index.php?/carnivore-vs.-omnivore.html
> http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/canine-nutrition/dogs-carnivores-omnivores/
> ...


By design, dogs are meant for ripping flesh, but to me, the fact that they regularly consume both animals AND plants in there diet makes them omnivorous. Unless I'm understanding the word "omnivorous" wrong.


----------



## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

I may also be confused on the "grey" area between being carnivorous and being omnivorous. I see a carnivore as being "all or nothing."


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

In scientific classification dogs belong to _Carnivora_, which means meat eaters. However, naming is secondary to the fact what diet is better to keep the dog happy and healthy. For example, it is well known in zoology that foxes, wolves and coyotes eat a lot of vegetable foods growing in the wild as well as cultivated by people ones: berries, watermelons and fruits, including blueberries in the north and persimmons in the south, etc. However, eating animals with red blood is absolutely critical for their health and survival. Even bear and raccoon, which are known as most omnivorous species of order _*Carnivora*_ catch and eat animals with red blood, including fish. Dogs can and like to eat many cooked and some raw vegetables and fruits, but they need meat and/or fish on more or less regular basis to stay healthy enough and capable of work, especially if they are physically performing dogs, such as hunting, pulling sleds or herding and protecting livestock one day after another. Anatomy, including bones, teeth and muscles as well as digestive system using specifically powerful enzymes to dissolve bones and digest meat quickly (even stinking meat) indicate that the domesticated dog is a predator. Of course, dogs, as well as wolves, are not only predators, they are also scavengers, but meat and fish are most important and favored ingredients in their normal died. Even tigers are known eating big grasshoppers, but this does not make them insectivores. Hedgehogs eat mainly insects, but they sometimes catch and eat lizards and small snakes and chew them up, but zoologists know that they are not _*Carnivora*_, they are _*Insectivora*_. You can impose a vegan diet on your dog, because you are the owner of the dog, not vice versa. However, if you love the dog as a partner in your life, you should respect the dog's true biological nature.


----------



## Dekka (Mar 20, 2010)

marsha=whitie said:


> I may also be confused on the "grey" area between being carnivorous and being omnivorous. I see a carnivore as being "all or nothing."


No, no more than being an herbivore is all or nothing. It just means what the primary diet is. Cows do quite well (if one forgets about mad cow) when fed bone and meat meal as part of their diet, though they are herbivores.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

marsha=whitie said:


> I may also be confused on the "grey" area between being carnivorous and being omnivorous. I see a carnivore as being "all or nothing."


Dogs are definitely closer to carnivores than they are omnivores. 

Here are some omnivore teeth:
Bear









Raccoon









Human molars









And now compare a dog's molars to a lion's, which I'm sure most of us agree are pretty strictly carnivorous.
Dog









Lion


----------



## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

:redface: 
Ah, thanks Nargle. Shows how much I know! I thought that since dogs do consume plant matter, that it automatically made them omnivores... I didn't realize that the animals design also plays a role in it to. Makes sense!


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have not read all the posts on this thread.

But....
Anyone that suggests that plant proteins are as good as animal proteins when it comes to feeding a carnivore needs to do some more research. The make up of animo acids are not the same in all animal proteins. Even different parts of the same animal have varying nutritional values both in terms of proteins, amino acids, and vitamins. 

Plant proteins are different. No way around it. 

Then there is the matter of how an animals digestive tract works. Dogs have a short digestive system meant to break down meat. They have great difficulty breaking down cellulose. 

Short answer is that dogs should not be fed a vegan or vegetarian diet. If someone's ethics will not allow them to feed their pet meat, then that person should not own a carnivore as a pet.


----------



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

While there are cases of dogs seeming to do well on vegan/species inappropriate diets:
Vegetable-Eating Dog Lives to Ripe Old Age of 27 http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209/articles/020918a.htm

I'm all about what science says.
First:
Importance of Animal-Based Proteins in Dog Foods 
http://www.iams.com/pet-health/dog-article/importance-of-animal-based-proteins-in-dog-foods (Yes from Iams if you can believe the irony)

"Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had
-decreased lean tissue
-increased body fat
-decreased levels of blood proteins routinely used as markers of superior nutritional status

This was independent of the overall dietary protein level (12 or 28%), which was also examined in each of the four test groups.

As dogs age, body composition and muscle-specific proteins decline. Therefore, another study looked at the differences between feeding senior dogs a 32%-protein chicken-based diet, a 32%-protein chicken and corn gluten meal diet, or a 16%-protein chicken-based diet.

Senior dogs fed the 32%-chicken protein, chicken-based diet had better body composition and a muscle-specific protein pattern identical to that in healthy young adult dogs. However, those results were not seen in either of the other two diets."

"Feeding diets with primarily animal-based protein sources
-Helps maintain muscle mass in dogs
-Helps reverse some age-related changes in skeletal muscles in senior dogs
-Can help enhance long-term health and well-being of adult and senior dogs."

Next:
The effect of texturized vegetable protein from soy on nutrient digestibility compared to beef in cannulated dogs
http://jas.fass.org/content/79/8/2162.full.pdf

"In conclusion, TVP [texturized veg protein] is a useful source of protein in canine canned diets because amino acids from TVP are almost as digestible as those from beef in the canine intestine. Nevertheless, soy carbohydrate is poorly digested and large amounts of TVP inhibit small intestinal electrolyte digestibility and increase fecal water content."

"This study shows that properly processed soy protein from textured vegetable protein (TVP) is a digestible source of protein and amino acids in canned diets fed to dogs. Soy carbohydrate from TVP, however, is poorly digested in the canine small intestine, although it is well-fermented in the canine colon. When large amounts of TVP are added to the diet, small intestinal sodium absorption is markedly inhibited, the water content of feces increases, and fecal consistency becomes more liquid. This may limit the amount of TVP containing soy carbohydrate that may be included in canned canine foods"

Another:
Evaluation of meat meal, chicken meal, and corn gluten meal as dietary sources of protein in dry cat food
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1250243/

(First abbreviations used: meat meal = MM, chicken meal = CM, and corn gluten meal = CGM, N = nitrogen)
"As compared with the CM diet, dry-matter digestibility was higher and lower for the MM and CGM groups, respectively. Percentages of nitrogen (N) absorption and N retention to N intake were higher in the MM group, and N utilization was not different between the CM group and the CGM group. All cats excreted alkaline urine (pH > 7). Urinary pH, struvite activity product, and number of struvite crystals in urine were lower for the CGM group. There was no difference in retention of calcium and magnesium among the groups. From the point of view of digestibility and N utilization, MM is superior to CGM, and CM is better than or equivalent to CGM as a protein source of dry foods for adult cats. However, when CM is used as a dietary protein source, some manipulation of dietary base excess may be needed to control urinary acid-base balance, because CM contains higher calcium and phosphorus."

Food habits of the wolf Canis lupus in Latvia based on stomach analyses
http://eskimohuskies.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=280

Table 2. Diet composition of different age groups of wolves (I'm not entering all the data, the table doesn't copy from PDF onto here so to save time I'm not entering it all, just summarizing)
-Wolves < 1 year old, plants and berries occur in 3.8% of stomachs, with a mass of 0.1%
-Wolves 1-2 years old, plants and berries occur in 4.8% of stomachs, with a mass of 0.3%
-Adult wolves, plants and berries occur in 0.0% of stomach, with a mass of 0.0%


----------



## ruwan (Nov 26, 2011)

a person who has chosen to adopt a dog should be always looking out for the dog's best intrests. if the dog loves a vegan diet and is happy and healthy on it, there is no reason not to keep the dog on it. if for whatever reason the dog can't have a vegan diet the person needs to adapt that for the dog. if the dog has to eat meat, getting it good quality (for human consumption grade) meat is probably the best option (organic and free range). it sucks if you have to support the meat industry for the dog but you are giving the dog the best life possible is what is most important.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

To be realistic, we should admit that dogs are dogs, not humans and not all foods valuable for humans are necessarily valuable to the dog. For example, dogs like to eat raw organs, such as liver, kidney, heart and some fat intestines with its content. Does it seems tasty to you? How about eating some fresh cow pies or still warm horse apples? Dogs digestion is different and so is its food preference. When eating some poop of herbivores, dogs obtain certain vitamins and add beneficial bacterial flora to their digestive system. Puppies like it regardless of what they eat at home. How about human excrements? Many of your dogs would not miss a chance, if you turn them loose in a city park ... In India and some other countries, where pariah dogs roam in villages, dogs eat children excrements, a natural form of sanitation. Stinking meat may be better then best kibble and dogs are perfect experts to determine what they can eat safely. Enzymes and acid in a healthy dog is powerful enough to kill all bacteria quickly and disolve bones. Muscle meat may be good for our stakes, but not necessarily good enough to the dog. Wild predators eat entrails first, when they pull down a big animal. Small animals are eaten whole, with skinr, feet and guts. This is the best wholesome food for your dog. One period I had access to fresh killed rabbits. My dogs ate them whole. That was the best food I could offer them ever. When I have deer meat scraps, I feed my dogs tripe and organs first and then meat on bones. Chicken heads and feet make excellent treatsand they are good for chewing and lceaning teeth the natural way/.


----------



## LoveCWCs (Oct 21, 2011)

Merlin is right, it has alot to do with amino acids that are only found in meat. For example, cats will go blind if they don't eat meat and have a host of other weird issues because they can't make taurine and taurine is ONLY in animal protein. 

Meat and plant based derivitives of the same thing also function very differently; take DHA for example. Most of you probably know that DHA is an amino acid that has been shown to support brain health. Nursing mothers and pregnant mothers are highly encouraged to take supplements of DHA. 

DHA derived from algae is what is called, "short chain" DHA. DHA derived from fish is called, "long chain" DHA. The algae based DHA is useless to people as a supplement that supports brain health. It basically does nothing. 

DHA that comes from fish, the long chain DHA, actually does support brain health and is a worthy supplement. 

Just something to chew on for those who think that protein is protein.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Great information LoveCVCs! Do all amino acids have more than one form? 

Dogs are very adaptable animals and can survive on really horrible diets. I want Max to live a long and active life, not just survive on foods that are almost okay so I will stick with amino acids found in the meats canines were meant to eat. I don't think nutrition science knows it all yet and seriously doubt that completely artificial foods like vegan dog food are more than just adequate for some dogs.


----------



## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

ufimych said:


> In scientific classification dogs belong to _Carnivora_, which means meat eaters... Hedgehogs eat mainly insects, but they sometimes catch and eat lizards and small snakes and chew them up, but zoologists know that they are not _*Carnivora*_, they are _*Insectivora*_.


Taxonomy nerd again, being obnoxious...

While it is true that "Carnivora/Carnivoran" means "meat-eater" in latin and "Insectivora/Insectivoran" means insect-eater in latin, these aren't the same terms as "Carnivore" and "Insectivore" which are adjectives that describe what animals eat. 

Carnivora refers to an existing Mammal Order (remember Kingdom Phylum Class Order etc etc from science?) and a Carnivoran is any mammal belonging to that order. Insectivora is a little different because, while this used to be an Order, it isn't anymore -- scientists discovered through a lot of fancy DNA stuff that "insectivorans" actually weren't really related to each other, and were in fact more closely related to other things (like manatees?!) so they killed that group. 

Basically, you can have Insectivorous Carnivorans. Perhaps the neatest example (and a personal favorite animal of mine) is theAardwolf. Less obscure examples are previously mentioned bears and raccoons, who are Omnivorous Carnivorons.


----------



## 2Catahoulas (Aug 11, 2008)

Daenerys said:


> I absolutely agree that human ethics should not be imposed on animals in this fashion. Just because humans can live on a vegan diet does not mean that animals like the cat, who is an obligate carnivore, can. In my opinion, if you are not okay with feeding a cat meat even in the form of kibble then you should not own a cat. Dogs are a little different because they can digest plant matter better than cats but I really do not think its okay to cut out meat entirely from a dog's diet because even if they are not obligate carnivores animal proteins are still an important part of their diet. At least I would not switch a dog to a vegan diet without talking to an animal nutritionists. Even going vegan as a human takes a lot of planning and making sure you know your body and its nutritional needs.


Just a thought... through laws, man has imposed "human ethics" on animals, particularly dogs. Is application of vaccines an ethic or just a health measure? Just asking.

I have been a vegetarian for years (not vegan). My dogs have also been for the same period of time. I just make sure the amino acid count is balanced. So-called "animal proteins" are not exclusive to meat and the same 19 amino acids are found in vegetables, fruit, and nuts. Beef (sirloin) has the same amino acid value of some beans. Oatmeal outperforms beef in the value of amino acids. With some people it's a digestive tract thing which only comes into effect basedv on the size of the substance being consumed.

I have no problems health-wise and feel good and aging is very good internally and has slowed according to friends. My furry kids are extremely healthy and full of energy. With me it's an equal dose of morals, health, & environment... for my furry children, it's the same (even though they can't understand any). I feel I have a moral responsibility to tend to my kids in the best manner possible. Dogs are classified as carnivores using dentition. Dogs' very ancient ancestors (Borophagines) were omnivore by dentition. As we all know, dogs will eat just about anything... things that I won't mention. Is it nutritional? I don't know, I don't want or need to know  

Anyway, my kids have been examined thoroughly by 3 different vets and all systems are running excellently and they look healthy. My life is based completely on science. Just do what you think is correct.


----------



## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

If well thought out some dogs might be able to do fine with vegetarianism,I don't trust vegan ism to be as safe and sound.

I know the dogss I had where picky eaters,they would not eat just anything. No Veggies,No fruit,no nuts,no un mentionable things for them,they would just spit it out. I never knew a dog that liked nuts honestly. They are mostly carnivores.


----------



## 2Catahoulas (Aug 11, 2008)

Foresthund said:


> If well thought out some dogs might be able to do fine with vegetarianism,I don't trust vegan ism to be as safe and sound.
> 
> I know the dogss I had where picky eaters,they would not eat just anything. No Veggies,No fruit,no nuts,no un mentionable things for them,they would just spit it out. I never knew a dog that liked nuts honestly. They are mostly carnivores.


 You don't need to have your dog vegan. Mine eat eggs and cheese as do I. I would guess, like people, dogs have preferences. All 3 of mine love nuts (macadamia nuts, no). They've even taken to chowing on acorns when available.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Careful with that. Acorns can be toxic in the right amount (depends on the size of the dog). Lots of tannins.


----------



## 2Catahoulas (Aug 11, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Careful with that. Acorns can be toxic in the right amount (depends on the size of the dog). Lots of tannins.


 Not really a problem since acorns were green and don't fall yearly... we haven't had acorns in 4-5 years... and they chewed them up, spitting out most. Mostly it was my April that did it. She enjoys the destruction and dis-assembly of many things.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

Foresthund said:


> If well thought out some dogs might be able to do fine with vegetarianism,I don't trust vegan ism to be as safe and sound.
> 
> I know the dogss I had where picky eaters,they would not eat just anything. No Veggies,No fruit,no nuts,no un mentionable things for them,they would just spit it out. I never knew a dog that liked nuts honestly. They are mostly carnivores.


Of course, they are carnivores. My dogs do not like to stay on kibble too long, no matter which brand. They like raw meat, venison I obtain by hunting in season and chicken from grocery. Other meats they like are groundhog, cottontail and squirrel. Some like deer tripe, liver, kidneys and portions of skin with hair. If you want to keep and enjoy a happy dog, do not make it a vegan; this will not work for the dog.


----------



## 2Catahoulas (Aug 11, 2008)

ufimych said:


> Of course, they are carnivores. My dogs do not like to stay on kibble too long, no matter which brand. They like raw meat, venison I obtain by hunting in season and chicken from grocery. Other meats they like are groundhog, cottontail and squirrel. Some like deer tripe, liver, kidneys and portions of skin with hair. If you want to keep and enjoy a happy dog, do not make it a vegan; this will not work for the dog.


 Of course is very pejorative. My dogs are not vegan. They are vegetarian... you obviously overlooked an important part of the post. Do not presume that raw meat is superior to a vegetarian diet. And as a vegetarian, why would I desire to know in detail, the diet of your dogs? It would seem that your knowledge of food material stops at the genus stage and you cannot understand the breakdown of proteins and their component, amino acids.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

2Catahoulas said:


> Of course is very pejorative. My dogs are not vegan. They are vegetarian... you obviously overlooked an important part of the post. Do not presume that raw meat is superior to a vegetarian diet. And as a vegetarian, why would I desire to know in detail, the diet of your dogs? It would seem that your knowledge of food material stops at the genus stage and you cannot understand the breakdown of proteins and their component, amino acids.


Biology is a science old enough and digestion of dogs is investigate thoroughly and well enough. You can force your dog to eat whatever you want and will die immediately or any time soon, but you cannot make it happy and healthy and living long on vegetarian diet. There are a several serious articles on dogs digestion, I can send you to some, if you are interested.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ufimych said:


> Biology is a science old enough and digestion of dogs is investigate thoroughly and well enough. You can force your dog to eat whatever you want and will die immediately or any time soon, but you cannot make it happy and healthy and living long on vegetarian diet. There are a several serious articles on dogs digestion, I can send you to some, if you are interested.


What do you think of the recent study that indicates dogs have evolved to produce more of the enzymes used to digest grains?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

2Catahoulas said:


> Just a thought... through laws, man has imposed "human ethics" on animals, particularly dogs. Is application of vaccines an ethic or just a health measure? Just asking.
> 
> I have been a vegetarian for years (not vegan). My dogs have also been for the same period of time. I just make sure the amino acid count is balanced. So-called "animal proteins" are not exclusive to meat and the same 19 amino acids are found in vegetables, fruit, and nuts. Beef (sirloin) has the same amino acid value of some beans. Oatmeal outperforms beef in the value of amino acids. With some people it's a digestive tract thing which only comes into effect basedv on the size of the substance being consumed.
> 
> ...


Regardless of your thoughts, science, and personal views..... While on paper the amino acids are the same in animal and plants. But there are other differences. One being that dogs have the digestive tract of a predator and do not digest cellular material well. You may be feeding it, the dog may be eating it, but that does not mean the dog it getting good nutrients from it. 



Feeding a predator a vegetarian diet is unfair to the animal. It does not matter if you can MAKE it work. The dog does not share your personal views and given a choice is and will remain a meat eater.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Regardless of your thoughts, science, and personal views..... While on paper the amino acids are the same in animal and plants. But there are other differences. One being that dogs have the digestive tract of a predator and do not digest cellular material well. You may be feeding it, the dog may be eating it, but that does not mean the dog it getting good nutrients from it.
> 
> 
> 
> Feeding a predator a vegetarian diet is unfair to the animal. It does not matter if you can MAKE it work. The dog does not share your personal views and given a choice is and will remain a meat eater.


JohnnyBandit, I agree with you. If you a dog watcher and love your dogs, you will want them to enjoy life in full and be happy. Raw meat is more then just another food to a dog. Watch the excitement and how the dog eats. My puppies are munching kibble from the same bowl, but if I give them raw venison, fights may erupt, everyone is getting his own piece and eats it separately from others. This is true call of the wild, which allowed our ancestors to survive and made possible to us to live to this day. It is more then a list of amino acids. Teeth of the dog are clean, the body weight is normal and the dog is packed with energy. Unfortunately, I do not have access to raw meat products sometimes and have to feed kibble for a week or so. When I handle meat for dogs again, my dogs are dancing around me in anticipation. Hunting season is coming soon and I will have a wholesome food for my dogs again. We are living in increasingly artificial world and we change our animals to fit our whims. You do not need to learn about amino acids in what you feed to the dog, if you feed it diverse natural foods. I rather love to keep dogs the natural way, active, well exercised and well fed. My oldest dogs died when they were 17 years old. I vaccinated them for rabies at home and they needed a veterinary assistance only in case of emergency, which happened rarely. This is a result of combination of science and personal experience.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Regardless of your thoughts, science, and personal views..... While on paper the amino acids are the same in animal and plants. But there are other differences. One being that dogs have the digestive tract of a predator and do not digest cellular material well. You may be feeding it, the dog may be eating it, but that does not mean the dog it getting good nutrients from it.
> 
> 
> 
> Feeding a predator a vegetarian diet is unfair to the animal. It does not matter if you can MAKE it work. The dog does not share your personal views and given a choice is and will remain a meat eater.



:clap2: Thank you! I agree 100% with this. I've honestly never seen a dog that thrived on a completely vegetarian/vegan diet.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

I like dogs of primitive culture people. Those dogs have more of the wild in their makeup. My West Siberian Laika female was nursing puppies and I let her loose, she was wandering around as she wanted. When her pups were 5 weeks od, she caught a groundhog in the nearby field. She ate as much as she wanted and moreover, she came back and regurgitated about a pound of raw groundhog meat and fat on the grass for puppies. The puppies finished it all. I also had an Airedale Terrier female with a similar habit, she was catching cottontails and fed them to her pups the same way. I doubt, if those good mothers would use a vegan concoction for their pups.


----------



## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

I somehow stumbled across some blog this person feeds her dog vegan diet because she thinks because they're omnivores dogs can survive on vegan diet. They can survive, but doubt it's 100% good for them.

Dogs are different from humans and omnivore doesn't mean same to dogs as it does to humans.

I like to call dogs carnivores they need meat they can also eat veggies and fruit, but meat is needed too. 

Look at a dog they have makings of a predator and scavenger not herbivore.

Saya likes some veggies and fruits, but she loves meat more. I have pear, apple and peach tree she loves pears she'll eat the soft pears every so often.

I see no reason for a dog to be on a vegan diet medical maybe, but not if the dog is healthy.

Veggie treat sure, but not sole diet.

Saya loves quail, fish, rabbit, beef, pork etc.

If you don't like grocery meat then go to farmers who raise their animals right. Many places have farmers market or farmers who have sites or emails. 

Check out this site has nice list of good farmers by state
http://www.eatwild.com/products/index.html

Eventually I plan to raise chickens for eggs actual free ranged chickens and eggs taste 10X better then grocery plus lives good life compared to most.

I get a lot of meat, bone in stuff, and organs from grass fed/free ranged animals. Animals who lived on grass and ate proper diet. Sure I gotta pay more, but the taste is good. 

Grass fed steak yummy. oh free ranged pork bacon so much better then the grocery kind. 

Using the meat industry as excuse to feed dog vegan or vegetarian is wrong to me. 

There are other options out there get food from local farmers.

What about the veggies you give are they 100% grown in your garden or from a good farmer? 

I grow my own asparagus, peppers, tomatoes, zucchini, cucumbers and taste is so much better compared to grocery counterparts. 

Tomatoes are much richer my dad went bought a tomato from store despite having tons in garden. I did taste test and difference is amazing the ones from garden tasted to good and fresh while the grocery was not so good.


----------



## ufimych (Sep 5, 2011)

You have a good taste and splendid ideas. We keep free ranging chickens, no fences, they walk in any direction, except our flower beds and vegetable garden, which are fenced. In fact, it is possible because od f my dogs. The dogs learned to leave chickens alone, but they are always alert and watch for small predators dangerous to the chickens. We also have three goats, one of which is producing milk. Dogs like eggs and they like milk as a supplement, but meat is the most exciting food. I hunt squirrels in season, but sometimes I am lazy to clean them for food. In such cases I cook them whole in boiling water for about 10 minutes for dogs. They eat them whole. I do so, because I do not want my dogs eat raw squirrels, when I am hunting with them.


----------

