# Well, I got a shock collar.



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Long post, apologies in advance.

I ordered a shock collar tonight. Before I get into any of the situation I want to state my general dislike of shock collars. I think they have their place and are a valuable tool in the right situation *and* in the right hand. I believe they most often aren't worth the risk that comes with any positive punishment such as creating unintentional negative associations, redirected aggression, fear, association with the object, etc. However, I believe when it comes to the safety of the dog that they can be a useful tool- again, when in the right hand. To skip to my plan on introducing it and using it, read the last paragraph. On to my situation..

My husband and I had to chase Kaytu, who we have had for just over 3 months. Again. In the first month we had her she escaped three times. First time, she ran inside someone's house and fortunately they are dog lovers and took it well though they were obviously surprised. Second and third time she cornered herself in a yard and we were able to grab her. She was in heat when found up in LA only a couple weeks before we adopted her so I think her hormones and urge to get out were still strong. We also realized she had no impulse control and no recall. We've been working extremely hard and she has made excellent progress.

Tonight was awful, though it could have been much worse. I was leaving for agility class with Denali. I was holding the crate, my bag, and a water bottle. Kaytu was in position where she has been trained to sit and stay. I turned my back to maneuver through the door. I simultaneously saw and felt her brush by my leg. I dropped everything and barely was able to brush my fingertips along her back as she ran. Denali (who was offleash because she's awesome, though that may have been part of the issue- too tempting for Kaytu though it's something I've specifically worked on, having her stay while Denali goes in and out) was sent back inside as I started running, husband put on shoes and joined in the chase. We try to follow, not chase. It's not a game. She took her usual pattern by running across the street and down into the cul-de-sac. We figured we'd catch her there but she ran right by us and diverted from her typical path. She ran directly to the main road, 2 lanes on each side, wide median, cars going 50 mph. She ran down the sidewalk a ways, then made a 90* turn and went straight across the road. Hub was barely keeping up with her and I was gasping. I ran to the median and starting waving my arms to get people to slow down. Kaytu was trotting along the shoulder next to the curb. I'm incredibly thankful that the cars slowed to a near stop.

She then turned again, going back across all 4 lanes of traffic. She went back into the neighborhood and my husband was finally able to tackle her when she stopped to smell a tree. She had deaf ears to us the entire time. We had called her name, made sounds, everything we knew. I had been so panicked, just waiting to hear the yelp and screeching tires. I had been crying from the time she went to the main road. We lead her home and put her in her crate to settle down. I laid half in the crate with her to pet her and let her know she was a good girl, I don't want to punish her for being home. My husband and I had a discussion and *we really feel that in addition to (NOT taking the place of) her regular training, she should wear a shock collar. We feel it is necessary to save her life.*

Regular training for over 2 months with daily practice: She must sit and stay in a specific location while any person enters or exits the front door. The location is such that she is able to see the door, but is far enough away that we can slam the door shut and stop her if she breaks the sit-stay. This was of course done on leash in the beginning. If she gets up or scoots forward then I reset her and try again. When she does it right, she is released from position and given treats , praise, and petting. She's been great doing this for the last 2 months. My husband and I practice it every single time one of us leaves the house. We will continue to train and reward her for the correct behavior as, apart from tonight, she has been doing it wonderfully.

I have also worked extensively with her on recall. She comes when called at home of course, and also does it at the dog park offleash even with distractions such as dogs entering the park. For obvious reason I don't trust her offleash in unenclosed areas yet.

I am also going to be getting her more exercise. I admit to slacking on the exercise the last couple weeks due to work, school, and housewifing. I promised her that we would go for a long bike ride at least 3 times per week, weather permitting. I don't want to work her _too _hard and she needs time to let her muscles heal. This will be in addition to regular dog park visits, we go about twice a week for at least an hour each time, but I always view that as mainly social hour where the physical energy used is a bonus side effect.

My husband and I are creating a "Kaytu Escape Kit" to keep next to the front door. It will have a ton of treats, a clicker, a flashlight, a towel and bandages, and the control for the shock collar will be on top of it all. Anything else we might want in there?

The collar itself has multiple levels of stimulation, option for continuous stimulation which I don't plan to ever use, it has a 1/2 mile range, works when wet, has an 8 second shutoff, and also has a No Stimulation setting to avoid accidental stimulation. For those wanting to know which collar I got, here it is. I'm not promoting, it's just for those who want to look at the features. 

I have a plan for once the collar arrives, I want to make sure this sounds good- as good as using a shock collar can at least. Please, PLEASE let me know if I should change anything about this or if there are things I haven't thought about. She will wear it for at least 2 or 3 days and it will be turned off that entire time. The shock collar means nothing, it is just a collar. I will then find the appropriate level of correction to where she notices the zap, and then in a controlled situation (long leash) she will have the option to go outside. I will not trick her or lure her. If she stays inside, she gets rewarded with praise, petting, and treats. All the best things in the world happen. If she attempts to go out, I will tell her to come. If she does, all the best things happen. If she ignores me I will give a verbal correction. If she then listens, all the best things happen. If she still ignores me and goes out, I will press the button. When she reacts, I will tell her to come. Stopping and coming back means all the best things happen. During training sessions the other pets will be behind closed doors and out of the way. I will make sure the street is clear of people, kids, dogs, etc. She will know that going outside when allowed to is ok (we train at the door, she must sit and wait for an invite to come outside. I will do extra sessions of that before the collar comes and while she is wearing it when it's off). The biggest fear I have is that she will think going outside _at all_ is what is wrong. I really don't want her to be afraid to go outside so I will really be working with her on being released to come outside and rewarding her for doing so.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Only thing that might eliminate the fear of going out would be to first work dog with collar outside somewhere in a fenced controlled area. Maybe with some recall work. I would never be buzzing him in the home as that should be his safe place. He would only be buzzed when he's out the door and in the bolting program.

Also be careful with working around other dog as strange things can happen, once you see how dog accepts collar then other steps can be taken.

Oh! nice collar as Tri-Tronics is top of the line.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

What about training and reinforcing the recall when he goes out the front door. That usually an exciting tme, practicing there with a long lead. Depending on how reactive the dog is, ,you may also want to keep the long lead on for the first several corrections, just in case he bolts. The long lead can also reinforce returning to you is the safe place.


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## lisaj1354 (Feb 23, 2008)

Why is she not spayed? That would go a long way to stopping her from searching out a mate/running away.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm not sure I understand why she wasn't on a lead in the first place. I've had escape artist dogs. Kabota is one. Two days after we got him, he ran away, and I am in no physical condition to run after a dog. From that point on, if the door is open, he's on a leash attached to someone's wrist, and that includes checking the mail. It's a pain in the ass, and we are working on sit/stay and recall, but I think it's a lot better than a shock collar.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Ok this comes from someone who used e collars and know people who use it for training. First of, using e collar inside or in "safe areas" is not necessarily a bad idea. Stim from the collar should be only such that the dog can feel it, dog should never freak out, most dogs pick up levels that are similar to an ich from mosquito bite (continuous stim) or a minor pinch (momentary stim, called flash or nick) - of course, try the leves on yourself first. If your dog gets bitten by a mosquito while sleeping in bed, it's extreme to say that it will never want to sleep again because of such bad experience therefore similar logic applies to an e collar. However, e collars can very, very easily create superstitious behaviour and fallout when used incorrectly so one should not just go buy one, slap it on there pet and expect a superdog without getting educated. Dog must absolutely understand what electrical stimulation (a new experience) means and must understand what she must do. Since you're going to use positive punishment by nicking the dog you must be certain that dog is consciously *disobeying* the command before delivering the correction and it must come within 1 second after the command. People who never worked with the collar often delay their correction too much giving the dog time to react but after they nick the dog too late (after say 5 seconds) dog will have no idea what's going on - the sequence must be exact, precise and consistent, command + correction within just couple of seconds and with this consistency your dog will fully understand the process and you won't have to correct your dog 10 times a day like some trainers do. Before all this, of course, dog should be trained to associate the collar with a leash pop and manual leash pressure.
But don't take my words, I strongly suggest watching a 4 hour seminar with Michael Ellis on e collars: http://leerburg.com/flix/landing.php?id=692 . I am not trying to advertise anyone, but this man literally saves dogs lives with his seminars because people abuse dogs all the time with incorrect training. In this seminar he explains reasons why people don't like these collars, why and when they should be used and how. Fact is, there are things that can only be achieved with an e collar, even after your dog is no longer so skittish an extremely reliable recall can easily save her life. I'd strongly, strongly recommend you watch that seminar before putting the collar on for even an expert trainer will find those 4 hours very worthwhile.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I've known just as many dogs who will run _away_ and keep on running when shocked; it's not a magic button to make her come home/stay home. I'm not sure what training is necessary to prevent that, but make sure you know how to do it.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Escape kit: LEASH!
When Caeda got away we were so frantic to get a flashlight and go after her that we didn't even think to grab a leash. Alternately stooping to walk her by her collar and carrying her at 60lbs isn't a fun proposition.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

I know you work a lot with Denali, is there a trainer your comfortable with that might be able to help with Kaytu as well? It sounds like you are doing the appropriate research and you are being responsible, but I think having an expert who has years of experience working with flighty dogs and ecollars is always better than going it alone.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Only thing that might eliminate the fear of going out would be to first work dog with collar outside somewhere in a fenced controlled area. Maybe with some recall work. I would never be buzzing him in the home as that should be his safe place. He would only be buzzed when he's out the door and in the bolting program.
> 
> Also be careful with working around other dog as strange things can happen, once you see how dog accepts collar then other steps can be taken.
> 
> Oh! nice collar as Tri-Tronics is top of the line.


The best area I have is the dog park. There are often times when nobody is there so i would have a chance to work with her. I'll try it. Her recall is REALLY good there though, she typically only doesn't listen when she's running along the fence with a dog on the outside- not something I would ever zap as the other dog(s) and a person is right there.



juliemule said:


> What about training and reinforcing the recall when he goes out the front door. That usually an exciting tme, practicing there with a long lead. Depending on how reactive the dog is, ,you may also want to keep the long lead on for the first several corrections, just in case he bolts. The long lead can also reinforce returning to you is the safe place.


I will be working on that, thank you!



lisaj1354 said:


> Why is she not spayed? That would go a long way to stopping her from searching out a mate/running away.


She is spayed now. She was in heat when found and so was then spayed.



Amaryllis said:


> I'm not sure I understand why she wasn't on a lead in the first place. I've had escape artist dogs. Kabota is one. Two days after we got him, he ran away, and I am in no physical condition to run after a dog. From that point on, if the door is open, he's on a leash attached to someone's wrist, and that includes checking the mail. It's a pain in the ass, and we are working on sit/stay and recall, but I think it's a lot better than a shock collar.


She was on leash after her first attempt. The second, she jumped through a window screen while we were upstairs which was totally unexpected. The third time, my father-in-law left the front door wide open when they were visiting and actually had the reaction to LAUGH as she ran away. After that she was on leash their entire visit.



SassyCat, thanks for the info and link, I will check it out.




Willowy said:


> I've known just as many dogs who will run _away_ and keep on running when shocked; it's not a magic button to make her come home/stay home. I'm not sure what training is necessary to prevent that, but make sure you know how to do it.


This is why she'll be on a long leash when I train her with the collar. Oh, which means she she'll be leash dragging for the next few days as well so she doesn't think it's related to the leash.

GreaterSwiss, LEASH! Thanks! That is part of the kit, I forgot to list it.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Good luck, I decided to use one with Hope and it worked well, but under totally different training protocol than what I have seen posted here. It makes a very reliable recall and I can call her off a chase on a squirrel or deer even. But it is -not- used as a punishment, it is not used as a consequence to an action the dog made. It is simply used as an additional cue along with a simultaneously given voice command. At least how I was instructed to use it by the trainer I was working with on it. 

It breaks through the deafness and high distraction and excitement level she goes into in prey drive and allows her to process the recall command I am giving is the best way I can describe it.

She absolutely goes nuts with excitement any time I even pick it up from the charger, or if I reach anywhere near where I keep the radio remote on the shelf I guess because she knows it usually means a long off leash adventure.

It didn't work well at all with Kaya, but she didn't really need it as training tool anyway so I basically wasted money on one for her that I barely used.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

TxRider said:


> Good luck, I decided to use one with Hope and it worked well, but under totally different training protocol than what I have seen posted here.


Could you share this method? Is it the one where you use continuous low level stim (called escape avoidance)?
Also, if not too off topic, why (or better: how) it didn't work with the other pooch?


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

SassyCat said:


> Could you share this method? Is it the one where you use continuous low level stim (called escape avoidance)?
> Also, if not too off topic, why (or better: how) it didn't work with the other pooch?


No it was different. More like a tap on the shoulder to get attention.

The guy set the level for a instant stim like this.. He put her on a 30' leash and let her just go off and start sniffing and being a dog. Then he started at zero and slowly went higher and higher until just the point where she showed any indication whatsoever that she felt something and stopped there. To be honest I put it on my neck next and tried it, felt like a bug landing on my neck.

Then he had me use the button for an instant pulse, a milisecond or somesuch, and had me use it simultaneously with every command.

The effect is the same as if you said "come" and touched the dog at the same time. 

The purpose I suppose was to provide a physical touch along with the vocal cue at the same time to better take the dogs focus off of the distraction like you would tap a friend shoulder to get his attention if he is too focused on something and wasn't hearing you saying his name. 

It's actually something people have to do to me often when I'm engrossed in working on a computer program or such and they need to talk to me, as I get just as focused and deaf as Hope does when she is focused on a squirrel or a deer and I just tune out anyone saying my name... That's the best I can describe it. 

It didn't work on Kaya because she is just wired differently. First she doesn't really have a high prey drive, she doesn't have a big problem with distractions and hearing your command, second she is a very very fearful dog and doesn't react well to some unknown thing that she can't see touching her. It just wasn't something she needed, and wasn't appropriate for her personality.

Hope is a big goofy stubborn fearless dog with a high prey drive, well high everything drive really, and it fit her issues and personality fine. In fact I had to rehome Kaya, as I was afraid Hope was inching into predatory drift toward her.. It got to the point that she pretty much had to run hide from Hope on a daily basis, as she did a few minutes after my signature picture below was taken.. 

Kaya lives a princesses life with my 80 year old parents now..


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Thanks for reply TxRider. That's escape avoidance training for softer dogs, it is relying on negative reinforcement. Harder dogs would require constant stim to get their attention but the concept is same - push, recall, release. I agree that it is better than positive punishment. The reason Kaya didn't understand the stim is because she was not taught what it means. Some dogs will have no idea what's going on when they experience an electric stim - what trainer must do is to associate it with a leash pressure: put a leash on, pop + nick at the same time about 200 times and only then can you work off leash. Without this, god only knows what dog will associate the collar with, could be a rock, a tree, another dog, anything. Hope naturally takes pressure well and she quickly picked up what's going on on her own but some dogs need help to figure it out.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

Sibe said:


> The best area I have is the dog park. There are often times when nobody is there so i would have a chance to work with her. I'll try it. Her recall is REALLY good there though, she typically only doesn't listen when she's running along the fence with a dog on the outside- not something I would ever zap as the other dog(s) and a person is right there.


Come means come, and if you can't recall her under that type of distraction, you will have a hard time recalling her when she escapes. If you aren't going to reinforce the come command in that situation I hope you aren't giving it at all, or you are basically telling her it's OK to blow you off when she's overly excited/in drive.

I would suggest finding someone in your area who can teach you how to introduce the collar, and show your dog how to turn the stim on/off. I haven't watched the video from Mike E, but I know him and he's a very good trainer and teacher so that might be of value if you can't find a trainer. There are articles on the internet about it also, I'm not going to try to give step by step instructions since I feel this type of training is something better shown than described.

Whatever you do, don't make the first time she feels the stim, other than the "find the level" part, be when she's already escaped and is running. I've seen to many dogs worked this way where the stim doesn't make them stop and come back, it makes them run even faster/harder, because they don't understand it and they panic.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

SassyCat said:


> Thanks for reply TxRider. That's escape avoidance training for softer dogs, it is relying on negative reinforcement. Harder dogs would require constant stim to get their attention but the concept is same - push, recall, release. I agree that it is better than positive punishment. The reason Kaya didn't understand the stim is because she was not taught what it means. Some dogs will have no idea what's going on when they experience an electric stim - what trainer must do is to associate it with a leash pressure: put a leash on, pop + nick at the same time about 200 times and only then can you work off leash. Without this, god only knows what dog will associate the collar with, could be a rock, a tree, another dog, anything. Hope naturally takes pressure well and she quickly picked up what's going on on her own but some dogs need help to figure it out.


I don't think it's escape avoidance, it is not push, recall, release... There is no release. 

The push just does an instantaneous pulse of a tiny fraction of a second no matter how long I hold the button. It is not done before a command but at the same time and it is much much shorter in duration than the command is. It's is quicker than I can say come for example. It is not a stim applied before I say come, and released after she complies. As I said it seems more like a tap on the shoulder at the same time as the command.

It's not an apply pressure until she complies, or I can't see it being that anyway.

Hope associates it with me no doubt about it.. Like reaching out and touching her along with the command, but at any distance. Could be avoiding a second command I suppose.


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## Finkyfiend (Jan 23, 2012)

LOL She's a husky and born to run. I would strongly suggest that you find out about harnessing that energy and drive. There are urban musher groups all over So Cal that can help you get started with training, equipment and great info about the different ways you can runaway WITH your dog(s). Once you're dog learns about constructive running/pulling, it will be a lot easier to train a reliable recall. And it will be the most fun you 2 or 3 will have in your lives!


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

SassyCat said:


> Ok this comes from someone who used e collars and know people who use it for training. First of, using e collar inside or in "safe areas" is not necessarily a bad idea. Stim from the collar should be only such that the dog can feel it, dog should never freak out, most dogs pick up levels that are similar to an ich from mosquito bite (continuous stim) or a minor pinch (momentary stim, called flash or nick) - of course, try the leves on yourself first. If your dog gets bitten by a mosquito while sleeping in bed, it's extreme to say that it will never want to sleep again because of such bad experience therefore similar logic applies to an e collar. However, e collars can very, very easily create superstitious behaviour and fallout when used incorrectly so one should not just go buy one, slap it on there pet and expect a superdog without getting educated. Dog must absolutely understand what electrical stimulation (a new experience) means and must understand what she must do. *Since you're going to use positive punishment by nicking the dog you must be certain that dog is consciously *disobeying* the command before delivering the correction and it must come within 1 second after the command. People who never worked with the collar often delay their correction too much giving the dog time to react but after they nick the dog too late (after say 5 seconds) *dog will have no idea what's going on - the sequence must be exact, precise and consistent, command + correction within just couple of seconds and with this consistency your dog will fully understand the process and you won't have to correct your dog 10 times a day like some trainers do. Before all this, of course, dog should be trained to associate the collar with a leash pop and manual leash pressure.
> But don't take my words, I strongly suggest watching a 4 hour seminar with Michael Ellis on e collars: http://leerburg.com/flix/landing.php?id=692 . I am not trying to advertise anyone, but this man literally saves dogs lives with his seminars because people abuse dogs all the time with incorrect training. In this seminar he explains reasons why people don't like these collars, why and when they should be used and how. Fact is, there are things that can only be achieved with an e collar, even after your dog is no longer so skittish an extremely reliable recall can easily save her life. I'd strongly, strongly recommend you watch that seminar before putting the collar on for even an expert trainer will find those 4 hours very worthwhile.


I mostly agree with you, except for the bolded part.

When given a command, the dog must be given reasonable time to obey, before receiving a correction. Reasonable time is usually 3 seconds. So you say "sit", wait for the dog to comply, then give a correction after 3 seconds if he doesn't. If he complies, but slowly, there is no correction, just no reward either. Fast compliance is the only thing that earns a reward.

If you give the dog a command, and then immediately give the dog a correction, then you go down the path of learned helplessness and other cans of worms. It's different if the word is "no" or "leave it" of course, because then you're conditioning a punisher.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Finkyfiend said:


> LOL She's a husky and born to run. I would strongly suggest that you find out about harnessing that energy and drive. There are urban musher groups all over So Cal that can help you get started with training, equipment and great info about the different ways you can runaway WITH your dog(s). Once you're dog learns about constructive running/pulling, it will be a lot easier to train a reliable recall. And it will be the most fun you 2 or 3 will have in your lives!


I actually do bike with her. I've been increasing the distance, we go out 3 times a week and are up to 5 miles currently. I've been mushing with my other dog for over a year.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

My little rescue was like that, til we were working in the 5 acre "chicken turnout" (which was escape/varmit proof) at my other job. She used to be really bad about coming when called off leash, I called her & she chose to ignore me so i left her til she started wondering where every one was lol... She never did that again , 

My only suggestion would be if she ignores you at the DP then hide somewhere where you can see her but she can't see you, then when she starts looking around for you then call her & party if she comes.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I am not going to get into the ecollar training, it's not my thing. But I do want to say that when you are working on the sit/stay at the door that you may want to try rewarding IN THE STAY and see if that helps, rather than releasing her first. Normally, I would also do the release and then reward..but if the reward of being outside is all she is focused on, then rewarding in position may (ie keeping the reinforcement rate up with several high value rewards during the stay) increase her duration and set the stay better. You can also then use the chance to go outside on a long line as a reward FOR the sit stay. 

And yes, Mike Ellis is pretty damn good if you are going to look at seminars.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

She's actually great at the DP. I can call her away from fence running (it's divided big dogs/little dogs) and usually away from greeting dogs at the gate.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

@lil_fuzzy
Thanks for correcting me, my explanation was too vague. What I meant to say is to give a prompt collar correction after a corrective command ie. "NO", every time with no exception (before the dog even has time to do the right thing). After some time just verbal NO will be enough and e collar goes into retirement. The idea is to enforce a strong NO. I agree that 2-3 seconds should be given for the dog to do the right thing. As in your example with SIT, we can't expect every dog to sit in half a second . But, I would prefer not to go this way...

To enforce just a COME command without punishment one should IMO use negative reinforcement which is escape training: stim applied at the exact same instance command (COME) is given and stopped once dog does the right thing. The only problem with this system is its incompatibility with anything the dog knew before seeing as he's getting the stim no matter how fast he reacts. So before that, dog must be taught that he should not freak out and cope with pressure (regardless of the fact that stim is barely even felt by the dog). This form of training when done properly does not cause any side effect or fallout since dog knows exactly what's going on and what to do, it is very simple and window for mistakes is tiny - I recalled my dog from the same spot 20 times and he still goes there meaning he didn't get the wrong idea like "that place is bad, I get zapped there". 

Learned helplessness happened most often with e collars when dogs have no idea what they must do. Trainer would raise the level of stim thinking it's not high enough but dogs being adaptive animals only learn to live with that and do best to just ignore it.... or just go insane beyond repair.

@dogdragoness
Ignoring could work but never worked for me... I did hide & seek game every day but this doesn't help if you recall and he can see you or know how to get to you - he chooses not to play the game then . What may have worked is a "restrained recall" but it requires a helper to be done properly. It is my belief that anything can be taught with just motivation and no corrections (exclude unwanted behaviour like digging the trash) but when you adopt a 8 months old dog with a package of various issues and hunt drive for unwanted objects (bikes, cars, runners...) e collar is a perfect training aid layered over motivation based behaviour.

But whatever the case is, I again recommend Michael Ellis and other Leerburg videos. One should not rely on forums when it comes to an e collar - it is a double edged sword. Mike also suggests escape training rather than using corrections when e collars are used. I also thought originally that it's a correction tool like any other, dog does something wrong, you zap him - but it's not like that. You can associate a NO with it, but still, for some reason it's not common practice.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

You may want to talk to RBark -- I believe he uses an e-collar for his husky/malamute Kobe exclusively for recall insurance on off-lead hikes. He may have some relevant suggestions or ideas on where to get assistance. IIRC he found a trainer that worked for what he wanted and took a couple private lessons with him to make sure he was using the tool effectively.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Cracker said:


> I am not going to get into the ecollar training, it's not my thing. But I do want to say that when you are working on the sit/stay at the door that you may want to try rewarding IN THE STAY and see if that helps, rather than releasing her first. Normally, I would also do the release and then reward..but if the reward of being outside is all she is focused on, then rewarding in position may (ie keeping the reinforcement rate up with several high value rewards during the stay) increase her duration and set the stay better. You can also then use the chance to go outside on a long line as a reward FOR the sit stay.
> 
> And yes, Mike Ellis is pretty damn good if you are going to look at seminars.


I'm kinda surprised at the instructions now given on DF on how to use the e-collar. I have used it but only as last resort and have seen what it can do to some dogs not used properly. I would not think of passing on instructions to be used on dogs not read. 

One reply mentioned using it on a sit program or at least used that as an example. I say If one needs an e-collar to teach and proof a sit they should be collecting stamps instead. The problem is when some people read stuff like that they think it's an acceptable training program.

Instead of using collar on an outlaw type to stop dog from getting injured it becomes just a quick training tool to be used for all exercises. *I'm Just Sayin'....* Be careful.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

wvasko said:


> One reply mentioned using it on a sit program or at least used that as an example.


You got the wrong idea, no one mentioned using an e collar for sit.

But now that you mentioned it, people actually do use it for a sit/stay command. Sit means sit training facilities do.

This thread was only about recall, but yes - many other commands can be enforced.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

SassyCat said:


> (...) - what trainer must do is to associate it with a leash pressure: put a leash on, pop + nick at the same time about 200 times and only then can you work off leash.


200 reps. IMO that's a significant effort just to lay a basic foundation. I'm kinda wondering if 200 reps of what Cracker suggested would yield similar results. "Six of one, half a dozen of another" ??? 

... just thinkin', time invested is time invested, no matter which direction people decide to slice it. ... Choose wisely.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> 200 reps. IMO that's a significant effort just to lay a basic foundation. I'm kinda wondering if 200 reps of what Cracker suggested would yield similar results. "Six of one, half a dozen of another" ???


Well, yeah, 200 times may (just may) be too much for a GSD or lab, but not really sure about a husky. I'd say it wouldn't hurt to spend at least a few days of this exercise before letting the dog run lose with an e collar and expecting results. Point is, you better be extra 110% sure that the dog absolutely knows what electric stim is at any time any place, he must and I mean must not associate it with some funny stuff like a tree, rock, a bird, another dog etc. Dogs are completely unused to an electrical stim, it takes time for them to learn what it is. 

It took my lab about a week to get used to a TV. He'd be all "what THE hell?" whenever I turn it on. Or a vacuum cleaner... it doesn't hurt him, but he's massively annoyed by the weird demonic machinery I am wielding every day. It took time for him to learn that vacuum cleaner is not an evil... construct bent on destruction, or whatever. So, same goes with an e collar - it requires conditioning with lots of reps.

Some dogs don't react at this stuff at all, some take few minutes to figure it out, some freak out - it all depends. You DO NOT want superstitious behaviour with an e collar. It is the kind of behaviour that causes dogs to bark on a toaster, become afraid of water, bite shadows and all that nice stuff that ends up on Cesar Millan's todo list. Dogs create some fantastic associations and we often don't even know what the heck is wrong with them.

I'm only saying all this because people mis use correction tools all the time. I see it everywhere, with professional trainers as well. These dogs develop all kinds of issues that go undetected at first. This is simply because they didn't care enough to devote few days worth of time to get informed. Fact is most pet owners who use these devices expect instant results. When dog comes running to his owner all startled because a TREE just bit him (in his mind), owner is all like "awesome, it works!".


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> When given a command, the dog must be given reasonable time to obey, before receiving a correction. Reasonable time is usually 3 seconds. So you say "sit", wait for the dog to comply, then give a correction after 3 seconds if he doesn't. If he complies, but slowly, there is no correction, just no reward either. Fast compliance is the only thing that earns a reward.


My fault I did one of those assume things reading the above I assumed since it was an e-collar thread the correction was given with an e-collar.



> But now that you mentioned it, people actually do use it for a sit/stay command. Sit means sit training facilities do.


I'm not debating that they use it, but I'm old school and using e-collar for sit is like using elephant gun to kill fleas. I suppose my problem is the e-collars back in the day, you hit button and fried them till either hair started to curl or dog performed properly. We mostly called these trainers week-end warriors, instead of laying proper ground work daily through the week they just thought pressing a button would cure all. 

I do digress, I'm sure there are e-collar artists frying dogs now. It's just not my tool of choice unless it's last resort.

I am a by-product of my environmental history.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm not debating that they use it, but I'm old school and using e-collar for sit is like using elephant gun to kill fleas. I suppose my problem is the e-collars back in the day>>>>>

WV, todays better e-collars are very adjustable. Id say it depends on the dog. For instance trixie flips if giving even a mild correction w a prong but barely flinches w a low level e-collar correction.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> My fault I did one of those assume things reading the above I assumed since it was an e-collar thread the correction was given with an e-collar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I won't say there is never a time when an ecollar might be considered (though I've always found other ways to train what I wanted). But my big objection is that a great many people use them because they are unable to formulate a training plan, or carry one out successfully due to poor understanding of behavior and/or really poor timing. So they go down to petsmart or walmart, or get on line and buy some cheap collar and start pressing buttons, with a tool that has greater potential for damage (misused) than almost any other tool. At least the OP is studying and trying to understand how to use it. Would be better to take a few lessons with a professional than to ask here, though. Personally, I wouldn't mind at all if ecollars were regulated, so you could only get one from a professional who has proven their ability to use one safely and without abuse to dogs. Even though that would probably give more revenue to trainers whose methods I don't really care for, I think it would result in less damage to dogs. I do not think these collars should be available in stores and on the internet.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> My fault I did one of those assume things reading the above I assumed since it was an e-collar thread the correction was given with an e-collar.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


While I agree that it seems like killing a flea with an elephant gun, the trainer I used has the owners use it with every command, sit, heel, down, come, he doesn't train a stay command, he figures if you tell the dog to sit or down it should know to stay there until released and a stay command would be redundant. Like I before though, it is a minimum setting instantaneous stim, and seems like a tap on the shoulder to me that accompanies the command. It's not like Hope flinches or anything when it's done, she doesn't. It does seem to get her attention off of distractions though. In truth I don't even use it any more, after about 6-8 months it was not needed. I might put it on for insurance if I have her off leash in a place where her safety would be in serious risk if she did not comply.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

TxRider said:


> While I agree that it seems like killing a flea with an elephant gun, the trainer I used has the owners use it with every command, sit, heel, down, come, he doesn't train a stay command, he figures if you tell the dog to sit or down it should know to stay there until released and a stay command would be redundant. Like I before though, it is a minimum setting instantaneous stim, and seems like a tap on the shoulder to me that accompanies the command. It's not like Hope flinches or anything when it's done, she doesn't. It does seem to get her attention off of distractions though. In truth I don't even use it any more, after about 6-8 months it was not needed. I might put it on for insurance if I have her off leash in a place where her safety would be in serious risk if she did not comply.


I'm surely not debating use of modern techniques, e-collars or otherwise. As I said I'm sure there are e-collar artists. It's the amateurs who read stuff and think if a little buzz is good a larger buzz will be so much better.

I have never given instructions on DF in the 4 years I've been a member on any aversive use. Trust me bird dog competition training used to finish a Field Champion in the 60s/70s was a savage place/methods where no mercy was given. I learned way back then that aversive advice given to amateur trainers that did not have the smarts needed to understand the possible ramifications and ended up injuring a dog or worse. With some it was that old saying "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" I am done preaching now.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> I'm surely not debating use of modern techniques, e-collars or otherwise. As I said I'm sure there are e-collar artists. It's the amateurs who read stuff and think if a little buzz is good a larger buzz will be so much better.
> 
> I have never given instructions on DF in the 4 years I've been a member on any aversive use. Trust me bird dog competition training used to finish a Field Champion in the 60s/70s was a savage place/methods where no mercy was given. I learned way back then that aversive advice given to amateur trainers that did not have the smarts needed to understand the possible ramifications and ended up injuring a dog or worse. With some it was that old saying "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" I am done preaching now.


I get that, I just don't know if it's used as an aversive in that method though. Helps to think it through by discussing. I see the plain use as a punishment in how some use it as a consequence to an action, as well as an aversive in a the hold until the dog complies method, I have seen people use it to condition a dog to say never chase a squirrel by using it whenever the dog is looking at a squirrel. I just have never heard of any one else using it like the trainer I went to did.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

TxRider said:


> I get that, I just don't know if it's used as an aversive in that method though. Helps to think it through by discussing.


It is an aversive method - using a vibration collar is aversive let alone electric one. Pop with a flat collar is also aversive, kick in the butt, tap on a shoulder - those are all corrections since dogs are exposed to external pressure. I'm still pretty sure your trainer used escape training system. ET trainers also never teach a dog STAY command. That is why the largest e collar reseller and ET training company is called "Sit Means Sit".... But, he can't really be that good if he told you that your other dog doesn't take it well - any dog can take it well, it only and solely depends on trainers' abilities. Don't take me wrong, I'm just throwing my non-expert thoughts out there.

Here Fred Hassen is demonstrating how he used an e collar on a fearful dog that has had its tail tucked between her legs at all times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDuYYKVYpQU&feature=channel_video_title

I think that this is completely out of whack and he did it to promote collars that he sells. But, I wouldn't say that the video is fake. Point is that not even a fearful dog should freak out when the collar is used right. There are more videos from him similar to that. I think he starts using those collars at 4 months of age on his own dogs from what I remember. Again, I do not agree with this, but I've seen a lot of his videos and seminars.

Trainer that you worked with does not use a prolonged stim. But what happens when he nicks the dog and he simply doesn't come? An ET system is compatible with flash stims, but they're only used on super soft dogs, like a pet golden retriever - dog is nicked about every second until it complies. Whatever button is used, point is that the dog must perform a behavior which will turn off the stim.

By the way, searching for Fred Hassen I found a free clip from Mike's e collar seminar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBb9PZ5SJrE


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I have never given instructions on DF in the 4 years I've been a member on any aversive use. Trust me bird dog competition training used to finish a Field Champion in the 60s/70s was a savage place/methods where no mercy was given. I learned way back then that aversive advice given to amateur trainers that did not have the smarts needed to understand the possible ramifications and ended up injuring a dog or worse. With some it was that old saying "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" I am done preaching now.


Yeap, I agree. That's why I will point out again:


> But whatever the case is, I again recommend Michael Ellis and other Leerburg videos. One should *not rely on forums* when it comes to an e collar - it is a double edged sword.


However noble one's intentions are, holding a remote collar remote is similar to having a loaded gun pointed at your best friend dog. Sure hope it doesn't misfire..... I tried highest levels on myself and a loaded gun comparison is not an overstatement . Seriously though, don't just rely on free internet material when it comes to these things. Mike's seminar is 5 hours long for a reason.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

SassyCat said:


> Yeap, I agree. That's why I will point out again:
> 
> However noble one's intentions are, holding a remote collar remote is similar to having a loaded gun pointed at your best friend dog. Sure hope it doesn't misfire..... I tried highest levels on myself and a loaded gun comparison is not an overstatement . Seriously though, don't just rely on free internet material when it comes to these things. Mike's seminar is 5 hours long for a reason.


LOL, I tried it on my own neck at max level before I used it with Hope. I didn't find it that bad, it wasn't painful. It felt like one of those physical therapy devices they use for muscle stimulation. I once lost a bet with a guy that I could hold my hand open while he tried to close it with the physical therapy device. I never stood a chance.. He balled my hand into a ight fist easily but it was in no way painful.

Same on my neck. It contracted the muscles in my neck pretty strongly at max level, but it didn't hurt. But then my skin is connected to the flesh directly, a dogs is not. Definitely gets your attention though. At the levels I was using with Hope it wasn't even annoying really.



> Whatever button is used, point is that the dog must perform a behavior which will turn off the stim.


That's not what was done though. If the dog did not comply the level was just turned up a level and the simultaneous command and "nick" repeated, Like the difference between talking and yelling.. but it was never continued for any duration until the dog complied, no escape.

Kaya didn't freak out, she just didn't need it. If she understands what you want she is eager to do it, she's like that. She thrives on approval.

Hope is a "what's in it for me?" type and a push the edge of every rule and boundary type.

I only really went to the class because these two rescues needed socialization, and the outdoor class that rotated locations gave me a controlled environment to work in with other dogs and people. Doing it in the wild around my neighborhood wasn't going to work. Folks tend to cross the street and pick up their dogs when I walk by with Hope. But Hope also has a big prey drive, and I decided to see if the ecollar would help get handle on calling her off them, or someone's cat.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TxRider said:


> Same on my neck. It contracted the muscles in my neck pretty strongly at max level, but it didn't hurt. But then my skin is connected to the flesh directly, a dogs is not. Definitely gets your attention though. At the levels I was using with Hope it wasn't even annoying really.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We can't really know how another being perceives electricity. I've known of people who think a TENS unit "feels good" and others who think it is painful. Dogs can't tell us what they are feeling. If the dog responded to it, it had to be at least annoying. It doesn't really matter if it is not a continuous charge. If the dog doesn't respond, if you dial it up and do it again, until the dog DOES respond, it's still no escape.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> We can't really know how another being perceives electricity. I've known of people who think a TENS unit "feels good" and others who think it is painful. Dogs can't tell us what they are feeling. If the dog responded to it, it had to be at least annoying. It doesn't really matter if it is not a continuous charge. If the dog doesn't respond, if you dial it up and do it again, until the dog DOES respond, it's still no escape.


Of course we can't know that goes without saying, but a dog usually tells us something is moderately painful with a yelp or a physical action or change in posture. It's not american english but it is telling how they feel to some degree. I know I would respond to it likely about the same as she did, which is just an observation, but it's all we really have to go by. I know it worked for her, she goes nuts to have it put on her, and she doesn't seem any worse for it.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TxRider said:


> Of course we can't know that goes without saying, but a dog usually tells us something is moderately painful with a yelp or a physical action or change in posture. It's not american english but it is telling how they feel to some degree. I know I would respond to it likely about the same as she did, which is just an observation, but it's all we really have to go by. I know it worked for her, she goes nuts to have it put on her, and she doesn't seem any worse for it.


Some dogs can be amazingly stoic. I had one dog who was in considerable discomfort when he peeled the pads of three of his feet. But he didn't limp (or even slow down) until his sheep were penned.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> We can't really know how another being perceives electricity. I've known of people who think a TENS unit "feels good" and others who think it is painful. Dogs can't tell us what they are feeling. If the dog responded to it, it had to be at least annoying. It doesn't really matter if it is not a continuous charge. If the dog doesn't respond, if you dial it up and do it again, until the dog DOES respond, it's still no escape.


Yes the difference in how a living creature dog/human/guppy feels this stuff is the tricky part. I chuckle a bit when people do the choke/prong e-collar on body parts cause only info they are receiving is how they feel, does not help any dog.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

In this one Mike talks about basics of recall training and competing against motivators that will cause your dog not to come:





One of the important steps is teaching your dog the actual idea of coming while he's focused at something else, usually far more interesting than obedience (eg. playing with another dog). Having to come even when not wanting to come is a new concept that is trained differently. This is where long leash is used and later on e collar if needed.

Hope I'm not breaking any rules by embedding videos .


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I stopped following the responses on the thread, no offense to anyone I just haven't felt like getting into a huge debate, I hope you've all been able to keep learning from each other and sharing useful info 

Update for me, I got the collar and Kaytu wore it throughout the day for 3 days. Tonight I took her for a 5 mile bike ride then about 30 minutes later decided it was time to turn the collar on and do some training with it since she was nice and exhausted.

She was basically glued to my side for the entire 10 minutes we were outside. She wouldn't even get to the end of the line before she'd spin around and come back. I didn't even have a chance to use a command 90% of the time, and when I gave the command she instantly turned and came to me- no stim used. Good dog  I know that the positive methods I've been using are working with her. I am still going to work with the collar to teach her what the stim means as I do believe it could one day help save her life.


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