# Frodo's confirmation eval :(



## ormommy

Here is background info for those who are interested.
I met our regional ESS club president and 2 other members at an agility trial the club was sponsoring. A breeder had brought a 10 month old she thought had good prospects, a champion and a grand champion. They explained what about the dogs were close to the breed standard (and away). They explained one of the reasons field-bred don't win in the ring is the lack of consistency in what makes a field-bred. They explained what made them good agility runners.
I could already tell Frodo wouldn't measure up (re:confirmation) But I was not prepared for by how much.
His eyes are too light. He'll be taller then the breed standard by about 1/2 inch or so. His hocks, though at the right angle are a little too long. His shoulder blade tip, the bottom of the blade, and some other part don't form 90 degree angles exactly. His front legs are a little too forward (and apparently his leg, shoulder and elbow faults will keep him from being successful at anything but basic agility because he'll tire too quickly (which, I'm sure I'm wrong, but mixed breeds run agility successfully and they aren't anatomically proportional and perfect, right?). His tail base is too high. His muzzle and head plane aren't parallel. 

Oh, they praised his ears, coloring and temperament (although his ears are field bred). And I didn't cry. They said my price was reasonable for a pet quality purebred (I don't see how). They said he was a good example of a European bred Springer and a great pet, and at the end of the day, temperament and health is what matters. I'm sure that's true....I don't want a show quality dog who is temperamental and riddled with health issues. They said there were still lots I could do with him, I could learn about the breed, and then next time....(I hate that). I spent a lot of money fulfilling a lifelong dream and ended up owning a dog who is confirmation wise barely better then a mixed breed and apparently will exhaust in field trials or agility because of the angle of his shoulders. I researched the breed (although obviously nowhere near good enough), general puppy ownership, health, how to avoid a bad breeder....
And I have to admit, right now I feel cheated. It's a done deal...even if Iwanted to my contract offers no means to get my money back. And it's not that I think she's a "bad" breeder. But....she advertised "show quality" (generally) and maybe in Europe they are. But she had to know what was the standard here and that she wasn't raising it. I've heard that in any given litter, only 1-2 may be, on average, show quality, even from champion parents. I wasn't even 100% sure I wanted to show, just that the option could be open. And I never thought agility would be could be an issue.

I'm sure this post will anger some....it's a hard thing to explain and not seem like I don't love the dog or think he's "not good" now.


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## parus

ormommy said:


> And I have to admit, right now I feel cheated. It's a done deal...even if Iwanted to my contract offers no means to get my money back. And it's not the pShe advertised "show quality" (generally) and maybe in Europe they are. But she had to know what was the standard here and that she wasn't raising it.


I don't intend to be offensive, but this is like buying a nice vehicle from a jeep dealer and being pissed you didn't get a racecar. The dog is a fine dog, it's just not for the American conformation ring. It probably never even occurred to the breeder that she'd need to warn someone they weren't getting a conformation champ prospect. When people are going looking for conformation champ prospects, or breeding in hopes of producing conformation champ prospects, they're explicit about it, and there is often discussion of topics such as co-ownership, obligations to show the dog, future breeding options, etc...

Additionally, as far as not being built for extreme endurance for dog sports...if you're not already heavily into these sports and skilled yourself, let's be realistic about the level of training and competition you're likely to do with the dog during its working lifetime: not high enough for this to be a major factor, as long as the dog is sound and healthy otherwise. At the very highest levels where the entire field of dogs is trained up fantastically from a young age by pros to compete, maybe minor structural difference have an effect. But for beginners big factors are more like, oh god, is my dog going to take a dump in the ring and NQ us.


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## Canyx

I call bullpoop. Sure he might not be the DEFINITION of the standard... And first of all you don't see the whole dog at not-even 3 months of age, just an idea of what could possibly be... But no dog is perfect. People who breed dogs choose dogs that compliment each other physically and in terms of temperament. His front legs being a little too forward means nothing in terms of your agility career. Maybe if you pair him against the 'perfect' ESS in a 20 mile race he might tire first. Maybe his turns won't be as tight as turns made by an ESS with 'perfect angles'. But how long is one agility run? Not even five minutes, I am pretty sure (I've only run very short courses so people with more experience might be able to say more). His front legs won't mean he'll dead stop out of tiredness in the middle of running. I think how well you guys do in agility, if you pursue it, will depend on how much effort, enthusiasm, and training you are willing to put into the sport and your dog. 

I understand it's their job to evaluate conformation and tell you the hard facts truthfully, but that's it at the end of the day. Barring EXTREME faults, like obvious deformities that prevent any dog from moving efficiently... It is NOT their job to tell you whether or not the dog has or doesn't have a chance at any sport. 

Also, your dog is so young... A lot might change as he grows.


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## Shell

I am not sure that I understand the problem even. The dog is healthy right? He has a good temperament right? He is young so some muscle change is likely which might help him in agility. Perfect structure isn't needed for most casual dog sports. By casual I mean that you aren't turning him into a police dog or seeing eye dog or such nor are you going to show him in order to breed him

And as far as endurance in general, well, I have yet to meet a mixed breed or a pure bred that is otherwise healthy who doesn't have enough endurance for fun and fun sports.


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## Laurelin

A LONG agility run is only 50 seconds or so. So um.... yeah I wouldn worry at all.

Summer is really butt high and her lowest point is her withers. She was athletic and healthy and running agility at 10 years old. Dogs don't have to have perfect conformation to run agility.

Also Hank is a bit straight in the rear, butt high, and he has very forward front legs too It bugs me sometimes but he is the fastest dog at the dog park and can leap from a stand about 4-5' and climb trees. He is definitely a sprinter vs a distance runner but he's rocking at agility. He is the most athletic dog I've owned.

Your dog isn't going to fall apart from having conformation that isn't 100% perfect.


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## ormommy

parus said:


> I don't intend to be offensive, but this is like buying a nice vehicle from a jeep dealer and being pissed you didn't get a racecar. The dog is a fine dog, it's just not for the American conformation ring. It probably never even occurred to the breeder that she'd need to warn someone they weren't getting a conformation champ prospect. When people are going looking for conformation champ prospects, or breeding in hopes of producing conformation champ prospects, they're explicit about it, and there is often discussion of topics such as co-ownership, obligations to show the dog, etc...[\quote]
> 
> I take full responsibility for not being as clear in the sense that I wasn't 100% decided on a confirmation "career", but in my initial contact email I specifically DID mention I was interested in confirmation, agility, or obedience showing. She said her dogs had done all of the above, primarily obedience I did say suitability for our family was primary, and still is. Obviously a show dog that can't tolerate my kids won't work. She specifically said she doesn't believe in co-ownership.
> 
> I wasn't asking if this was her top championship prospect. I was asking for a dog without disqualifying factors (like height or eye color)And since I wasn't asking for a bitch (and she kept one) I didn't see where breeding would be an issue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, as far as not being built for extreme endurance for dog sports...if you're not already heavily into these sports and skilled yourself, let's be realistic about the level of training and competition you're likely to do with the dog during its working lifetime: not high enough for this to be a major factor, as long as the dog is sound and healthy otherwise. At the very highest levels where the entire field of dogs is trained up fantastically from a young age by pros to compete, maybe minor structural difference have an effect. But for beginners big factors are more like, oh god, is my dog going to take a dump in the ring and NQ us.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. I realise this on one hand, on the other, they made it sound like if I go above the first level the dog wouldn't be able to handle that. After thinking over the agility I have watched, I'm doubting that more and more. For example, I watched a bearded collie and a airdale terrier run. The bearded collie was precise but slow, and the terrier...trotted...no other word for it. This was the second level (forget the exact name...I'm exhausted) . Ironically, one of their ESS missed a contact point on the a-frame.
> I greatly appreciate their time, and I'm even interested in the club. I'm not trying to be a snob. And I am bonding to the dog, but I've only had him a couple of weeks. Also, it's very hard for me-was very hard-to spend so much on a dog and I feel like I failed by missing this when it did matter to me. I hadn't heard of it for any other breed...although I guess it exists "under the table", which is dumb.
> 
> ETA: I mean I hadn't heard that some dogs meet the as standard but can't show because they don't have the right look; their look is too "field". I thought the breed standard existed first and foremost to protect "field" traits from being bred out for fashion.
> Maybe confirmation isn't for me anyways.
Click to expand...


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## Laurelin

In the US there's a plethora of venues for agility. Some require faster and more precise runs than others. In all US venues I know of (UKI I think MAY be different but that's not a big venue) you are running against yourself essentially. Unless you are trying for rankings or nationals, which... 99.99% of people aren't going to be. To earn titles you must 'Q' which means run within the time limit and without errors. AKC is the main agility game in the US and the course times are really not that fast. Maybe a conformation fault might matter in the uppermost levels. I mean you don't want to run a dog that is lame or anything obviously. But being not 'conformationally correct' doesn't mean your dog is going to fall apart. 

A lot of conformation people don't know much about agility.


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## PatriciafromCO

Don't think you should feel bad on how you feel,, (hard knocks for learning, been there myself) funny thing is I took my Major to the local GSD Breed club and was there only 15 minutes to take my first confirmation introductory class that everyone was (dogging on poor Major) saying that I couldn't show him in the ring, and that I have to get another dog.... ???? Actually I was there to learn about how to show in the ring, not there thinking I had a Westminster hopeful, but the entire time they never let up on I need to dump him and get a better dog... I never went back to the breed club.. I practiced training in class at a small community training center and had a good time.. I did go to many shows and it was hilarious that none of those locals could beat Major in the ring... 3 years Major knocked their dogs out of getting any further until they were avoiding the shows Major was going to.. I was there because I loved working with Major , he liked the shows and my mentor wanted me to learn about the dogs being involved and being around better dogs to see and learn why there were better to strive for. Major always make it to the final round for winners dog and best of winners and you could truly see why the special was the winner over him... Never hurt my feelings, loved loved Major, finished his CD, military certified for patrol and explosive.. Learned alot had great times with great dogs doing what they were good at... send hugs your way... I showed anyway... even when the AM's told he he was trash, and I did work him even when the GE's told me he was trash.. and Major was awesome in both.... lol


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## Laurelin

Oh and I took Summer to a couple of meet the breed things in the past and in one the conformation people really ripped her and the other time they really liked her. So who knows! We showed one of our papillons and it's really subjective. Some judges like certain styles and some don't. Our dog always either won the class dogs or came in dead last in his class.

I like performance events because it's very clear cut who should win. If you do the best and are the fastest without errors then you should win. Makes a lot more sense to me.


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## ormommy

Canyx said:


> I call bullpoop. Sure he might not be the DEFINITION of the standard... And first of all you don't see the whole dog at not-even 3 months of age, just an idea of what could possibly be... But no dog is perfect. People who breed dogs choose dogs that compliment each other physically and in terms of temperament. His front legs being a little too forward means nothing in terms of your agility career. Maybe if you pair him against the 'perfect' ESS in a 20 mile race he might tire first. Maybe his turns won't be as tight as turns made by an ESS with 'perfect angles'. But how long is one agility run? Not even five minutes, I am pretty sure (I've only run very short courses so people with more experience might be able to say more). His front legs won't mean he'll dead stop out of tiredness in the middle of running. I think how well you guys do in agility, if you pursue it, will depend on how much effort, enthusiasm, and training you are willing to put into the sport and your dog.
> 
> I understand it's their job to evaluate conformation and tell you the hard facts truthfully, but that's it at the end of the day. Barring EXTREME faults, like obvious deformities that prevent any dog from moving efficiently... It is NOT their job to tell you whether or not the dog has or doesn't have a chance at any sport.
> 
> Also, your dog is so young... A lot might change as he grows.


Thank you. You know, I wondered, and even asked, how much could you really tell at this age. I understand, for example, his tail isn't going to drop down an inch on his butt, but slight extra skin on the throat, or lack of perfect parallel planes on his face? It seems to me dog's, like kittens and human babies, "fine down" a little as they grow.

I don't know why I let the agility comments bother me so much. As everyone is saying, it's not like a healthy well structured (if not breed perfect) will collapse in the ring from leg angle.


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## ormommy

Laurelin said:


> A LONG agility run is only 50 seconds or so....
> Also Hank is a bit straight in the rear, butt high, and he has very forward front legs too It bugs me sometimes but he is the fastest dog at the dog park and can leap from a stand about 4-5' and climb trees. He is definitely a sprinter vs a distance runner but he's rocking at agility. He is the most athletic dog I've owned


It's funny you've mentioned this, because we've been REALLY surprised at how high Frodo can jump. We thought it was just the "springer" part. Maybe it's his confirmation. He already does a straight up and down jump close to many cats I've owned.


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## ormommy

PatriciafromCO said:


> Don't think you should feel bad on how you feel,, (hard knocks for learning, been there myself) funny thing is I took my Major to the local GSD Breed club and was there only 15 minutes to take my first confirmation introductory class that everyone was (dogging on poor Major) saying that I couldn't show him in the ring, and that I have to get another dog.... ???? Actually I was there to learn about how to show in the ring, not there thinking I had a Westminster hopeful, but the entire time they never let up on I need to dump him and get a better dog... I never went back to the breed club.. I practiced training in class at a small community training center and had a good time.. I did go to many shows and it was hilarious that none of those locals could beat Major in the ring... 3 years Major knocked their dogs out of getting any further until they were avoiding the shows Major was going to.. I was there because I loved working with Major , he liked the shows and my mentor wanted me to learn about the dogs being involved and being around better dogs to see and learn why there were better to strive for. Major always make it to the final round for winners dog and best of winners and you could truly see why the special was the winner over him... Never hurt my feelings, loved loved Major, finished his CD, military certified for patrol and explosive.. Learned alot had great times with great dogs doing what they were good at... send hugs your way... I showed anyway... even when the AM's told he he was trash, and I did work him even when the GE's told me he was trash.. and Major was awesome in both.... lol


That's a cool story! At least my people tried to find good points to comment on (friendliness, intelligence) and were honest with their own dog's faults. I still got the feeling, though, kind of like you said, that this is my "practice" dog and that attitude really bugs me. Keep him, join the club, train for obedience and rally if I want, get a mentor, then get my "real dog".


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## ormommy

Laurelin said:


> I like performance events because it's very clear cut who should win. If you do the best and are the fastest without errors then you should win. Makes a lot more sense to me.


One of the reasons obedience interests me is you compete, for the most part, against yourself. Others, too, but that title belongs to you and your dog based on your work....I don't know if I'm making sense.


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## PatriciafromCO

ormommy said:


> That's a cool story! At least my people tried to find good points to comment on (friendliness, intelligence) and were honest with their own dog's faults. I still got the feeling, though, kind of like you said, that this is my "practice" dog and that attitude really bugs me. Keep him, join the club, train for obedience and rally if I want, get a mentor, then get my "real dog".


do hope you find your balance, doing the dogs and not being happy at the reality of imperfections will drive you mad..Have to find that happy place for yourself about the dogs.. Especially when you realize that perfect dogs with perfect tittles don't mean perfect puppies some dogs no matter how perfect they are never give the best they are to the next generation.. but yet a really butchy correct female that isn't pretty or fancy enough to make it in the show ring... could be bred to any decent male and produce the best of dogs in her puppies that made her.. One guy I met always sought out the best of dogs and had the money to get them , absolutely stunning in class to see them... but they never worked out for him, he always saw flaws in them and they never seemed to reach their potential in the ring and I think his unhappiness held all his dogs back from excelling.. And he never kept them long a few times in the ring with no huge wins he sell them and get the next big hopeful .. He wanted a dog that was perfect and he had perfect dogs, I think he never learned to bring out the best in them to be noticed... I will never forget that guy and think I don't want to be like him and so unhappy... and surrounding yourself with the wrong crowd of people will eventually pull all the joy out of doing the dogs.. so be careful...


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## sassafras

Trust me, all the dogs out there running agility don't have perfect structure. I doubt anyone really knows what perfect structure IS or whether it even exists. 

A dog with "imperfect" conformation but superior conditioning, body awareness, and training is probably going to run better and safer anyway.


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## Kingfisher

Grrrrrr. This is why I HATE breed standards.

They leave people like you who have a great dog somehow feeling like their dog is a lesser being because of eyes that are too light and incorrect planes of his muzzle and head. What might be "incorrect" conformation might be stellar for another breed, and yet it becomes a "disadvantage" for what a breed "was bred to do". There's so much BS that goes into many of these standards. 

Don't worry, that AKC Ch Cavalier King Charles Spaniel with Syringomyelia and Mitral Valve Disease meets the breed standard to a tee. We'll just forget about the rest. (Grrrrrr, sorry for the off topic rant, this stuff just makes my blood BOIL). 

Go out there and DO something with your dog. There's nothing wrong with him whatsoever, and neither is there something wrong with his breeder. He would be completely fine for agility or any other sport, don't let them tell you otherwise. Unless a dog has a serious injury or glaring conformational problems, they can do agility. And even if your heart is set on conformation, don't rule that out. Your pup is 3 months old, that's the WORST age to look at possible conformation. Look at him again in a year or so.  

The only fault I see with your dog is a lack of cute pictures.


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## CptJack

The stuff about confirmation for sports just makes me snort. There are things that would make me hesitate and question if I was really, really, super duper serious about agility and knew I was going to be competing at a high level but like parus (and others) said: let's be real: that's almost no one with their first agility dog and not most other people, anyway. 

I know dogs in agility who have three legs or who have dysplasia who compete in agility - though the dogs I personally know compete in the non-jumping classes of NADAC. My agility dog at the moment is a 12lb fluffy mutt who is high in the rear. My agility dog to be is cow-hocked as heck. I've done agility in bits and pieces with a deaf dog with two luxatting knee-caps and a heart murmur. 

All you need for agility is a dog who is physically sound. Not structurally perfect, but a dog who is sound enough to run, jump, and climb without causing itself pain. Oh, and a dog you like and enjoy being around. That's it. 

You'll be fine - and I also want more pictures.


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## sassafras

This is one of my favorite articles that talks about conformation and how it does or doesn't translate to function: http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/belkin.htm


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## Willowy

Conformation isn't really something one dabbles in or goes into casually. It would be super rare for a person just getting into a breed to actually get serious about conformation showing. Plus, I mean, you COULD take him to a few conformation shows. He might not win but if that's the kind of thing you enjoy it could still be fun. He's not automatically disqualified, and might be some judges' favorite, who knows. Plus, it's their job to tear apart/nitpick a dog's conformation---they would find something wrong in the winningest dog out there. 

And, yeah, unless a dog is just about crippled, I'm sure he'll be fine in agility. Most people just do it for fun, you could get into the super competitive levels but do you really want to? 

BTW, if you don't mind telling, how much did you pay? People should be able to tell you if that's reasonable for a pet-quality puppy.


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## sassafras

I'm also impressed that they're able to tell he'll be 1/2" over standard by looking at him at his age. lol.


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## Laurelin

I know a couple dogs that were 'too straight for agility' or something of that sort... that went on to compete for a full career and never got injured. Some really well built dogs do get injured. 

If I look at Mia and Summer, Mia has nicer conformation by the breed standard. But she's got luxating knees and a bad trachea which affect her immensely. Summer on the other hand is butt high and kind of roached but that never affected her at all. There's a lot of what makes dogs healthy and 'sound' (I would define sound as functional as a dog and injury free) that cannot be seen.


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## ormommy

Kingfisher said:


> Grrrrrr. This is why I HATE breed standards.
> 
> They leave people like you who have a great dog somehow feeling like their dog is a lesser being because of eyes that are too light and incorrect planes of his muzzle and head. What might be "incorrect" conformation might be stellar for another breed, and yet it becomes a "disadvantage" for what a breed "was bred to do". There's so much BS that goes into many of these standards.
> 
> Don't worry, that AKC Ch Cavalier King Charles Spaniel with Syringomyelia and Mitral Valve Disease meets the breed standard to a tee. We'll just forget about the rest. (Grrrrrr, sorry for the off topic rant, this stuff just makes my blood BOIL).
> 
> Go out there and DO something with your dog. There's nothing wrong with him whatsoever, and neither is there something wrong with his breeder. He would be completely fine for agility or any other sport, don't let them tell you otherwise. Unless a dog has a serious injury or glaring conformational problems, they can do agility. And even if your heart is set on conformation, don't rule that out. Your pup is 3 months old, that's the WORST age to look at possible conformation. Look at him again in a year or so.
> 
> The only fault I see with your dog is a lack of cute pictures.



Thank you! See, they were saying that by 8 weeks you can pretty much tell- actually before- the dog's prospects. It's funny because they said, for example, his eyes were too light. Well, if that meant that his eyes had to be brown I could see that. But the standard says deep and dark, and they are dark forest green. They said they were going to be yellowish? Neither of his parents have eyes that color. 

I'm horribly technically handicapped. You did catch the upside down pic that after an hour of trying I just left upside down, right?  I miss my good camera that I could do all this stuff with. I need to buy a new one, because puppyhood will be gone before I know it and all I'll have is cell phone pics. I already have missed a lot of pics this year with my kids because of broken cameras and computers that I'm going to have to take in to get data off of.


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## ormommy

> Conformation isn't really something one dabbles in or goes into casually. It would be super rare for a person just getting into a breed to actually get serious about conformation showing. Plus, I mean, you COULD take him to a few conformation shows.


Really? I would think that would have been a lot of peoples' purpose in buying a purebred. That's interesting. 



> BTW, if you don't mind telling, how much did you pay? People should be able to tell you if that's reasonable for a pet-quality puppy.


I paid 1100. Eek. Before I did though, I contacted a reputable Brittany breeder, 2 reputable lab breeders, and 1 rep. Golden breeder in area, as well as my dog's breeder. Give or take 100 or so, that was what they charged. All had deposits ranging from 200-350, all had 3 year health guarantees, and all puppies came with first vet exam, first shots, dewormed, etc. All offered to let me visit and meet the parents of the puppies. All had references. Our breeder came the closest to mentioning show quality, which wasn't incredibly close. All were focused on temperament and intelligence (I mentioned obedience to every breeder, and I believe agility, but mostly obedience) and hunting. This is a popular hunting area for people who raise sporting dogs. I have friends who are unfortunately byb's who make a lot of money off their labs just because they have basic hunting training as puppies.


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## CptJack

About 1000-1200 is normal for a pet quality springer pup, at least on my half of the country and even among conformation breeders, so yeah. That's pretty standard with my experience with the breed (which only got as close as making inquiries and some communications). (Other people have told me as low as 800, but still, you're well in the 'normal' range for a pet quality, responsibly bred, springer pup).


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## ormommy

CptJack said:


> About 1000-1200 is normal for a pet quality springer pup, at least on my half of the country and even among conformation breeders, so yeah. That's pretty standard with my experience with the breed (which only got as close as making inquiries and some communications). (Other people have told me as low as 800, but still, you're well in the 'normal' range for a pet quality, responsibly bred, springer pup).


That's good to know. It still feels like a lot to me, especially if his being purebred really doesn't mean a ton ( I.e. we could've competed without it except in confirmation).... but I realize I'm paying in large part for the responsibly bred part. I realize that isn't cheap. I guess I just need to reevaluate priorities and what I was and am looking for.
We had our first puppy kindergarten yesterday. Very interesting. The trainer basically does clicker training without the clicker (uses a marker word instead). I like her a lot, very laid back. I'm excited to be starting some training.


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## Beta Man

CptJack said:


> About 1000-1200 is normal for a pet quality springer pup, at least on my half of the country and even among conformation breeders, so yeah. That's pretty standard with my experience with the breed (which only got as close as making inquiries and some communications). (Other people have told me as low as 800, but still, you're well in the 'normal' range for a pet quality, responsibly bred, springer pup).



When it's all said and done, I'm paying close to $5k with no conformation, breeding, working, or other expectations beyond health and companionship. Would assume a "show stock" springer would be closer to $2,500 from "proven" parents etc


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## elrohwen

I agree with what everybody else has said. First off, your dog doesn't need to be perfectly constructed to be successful at agility or any other sport. I know a 3 legged beagle who runs agility and she's quite fast and very good at it. Conformation people like to tell you why every single aspect of the dog's confo will help or hinder it as an athlete, but keep in mind that they are evaluating every dog they see as a breeding prospect. They are essentially looking at whether the dog is exceptional enough to be bred and whether it will pass positive or negative traits to the breed. To have a good breeding program you need to be picky and see all of the small faults in a dog, as well as his good points, so that's what they were doing. I totally understand how it could feel hurtful, but that wasn't their intention. It sounds like they were very kind and it was nice of them to bring other dogs to show you. Breeders and show people can look at the number 1 dog in their breed and find faults with it.

Conformation is really its own world and as Willowy said it's not something people do casually for the most part. The standards are fairly vague and you need to talk to people and mentor with someone to really understand what type of dogs they are looking for, and how correct the dog needs to be to win. It seems like you could take a moderately nice dog who doesn't have any major disqualifications and try them out, but most breeds are not like that. Lots of breeders won't even sell a show quality pup to a newbie, because they want to know for sure that the dog will be out there showing with a competent handler, and that the dog will finish its championship. And you probably won't find a show quality dog from someone who isn't actively showing their own dogs and being at least moderately successful.

As far as knowing how a dog will turn out at 3 months, I would say yes, you generally can tell. You can tell better at 2 months than 3, as they start to get into puppy uglies, but a good breeder who knows their stuff will be able to pick a show prospect as a puppy and it's unlikely that a dog who is not put together correctly will change (shoulder angles, for example, will not get better with age, and dogs do not grow into better balanced heads). When my dog was 5.5 weeks old my breeder thought he was nice, and at 8 weeks she thought he was one of the nicest males she had bred - she wasn't wrong and those things she saw in him at a young age are still there. So unfortunately I wouldn't pin hopes on him growing out of some of those faults.

I think the "practice dog" attitude extends to pretty much anyone with their first dog who wants to do any sports. People don't mean it to be snobby or rude, they just know from experience that we do a lot of learning on our first dog, and typically don't get very far with our goals. Once we get the next dog we are older and wiser and know what we want and how to get there with the dog. That applies in agility, obedience, Schutzhund, and even conformation. I happened to have a nice conformation dog dropped on my lap and it wasn't what I was looking for, so in that sense I got lucky on the first one. We are still very limited from advancing beyond his championship though because I do not have the experience or skills to handle or groom him to the level he needs to be. On the other hand, I don't know if we will ever get where I want to go with agility or obedience and I get a lot of comments about how he's my first dog and I'm just learning and making mistakes with him, and the next dog will be better. People aren't being rude, they are just being honest that they made mistakes with their first dogs too. Just focus on learning with him and training him. If you want to do confo in the future definitely take handling classes with him and learn how to do it.

As far as price, that's a pretty standard price for a pet quality pup. Pups in my breed general go for $1500 whether they are pet or show quality. For that price pretty much all dogs come from Ch or GCh parents, plus all health testing, and there are certainly a lot of puppies born who I would not consider conformation show quality even from that type of breeding pool. It's not easy to get a show pup.


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## Canyx

That is some valuable insight elrohwen, thanks for sharing.


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## CptJack

> I still got the feeling, though, kind of like you said, that this is my "practice" dog and that attitude really bugs me. Keep him, join the club, train for obedience and rally if I want, get a mentor, then get my "real dog".


I didn't even see this the first time, but now that I have I kind of feel like I have to address it because I was literally just thinking "I can teach Kylie anything I understand" combined with "BUT I DON"T GET THIS!" 

This probably has nothing to do with the quality of your dog and everything to do with the learning curve in dog sports (of all sorts and including conformation). The learning curve in these things is STEEP - not for the dog, but for the owner/handler. Teaching the dog to do whatever activity really isn't the hard part. It's understanding the ins and outs of what you need to teach, and how it fits together, and even ...knowing enough to recognize what it is you don't know takes time. 

First dogs are pretty much never going to go as far, or be as good, as they would be with a more experienced handler. ALL the dogs that come after in whatever activity are going to benefit from YOUR experience level rising and every dog will be unique, but the first dog (in agility, obedience, tracking, conformation or just first dog) is always going to be the steepest learning curve, because you're having to learn along with the dog, instead of just teaching the dog.


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## Shell

Heck, I think this applies to regular training too, not just dog sports. I lucked out that Chester came to me with pretty decent behavior and some training, but I definitely learned a TON from working through the various training/behavior issues with the fosters and realized along the way things that I could have done better when I first got Chester. I have since gone back and applied some of it to areas where he is still rough around the edges. Having worked through things like dog reactivity, learned a lot about body language in the pitties and gotten more coordinated in my own timing, all helped make Eva's arrival and transition into my household much smoother. 

I learn something from basically every dog that stays with me even for a short period of time.


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## Laurelin

I don't like the idea of a 'learner dog'. I do think people improve the more dogs they have but I know a lot of people that have the most success with that first dog too. As long as you have fun, who cares? Just enjoy your dog, get out there and do stuff with him. You won't regret it even if he's not the best at it. There's always going to be a dog that is 'better' than yours in some way or another.


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## CptJack

Shell said:


> Heck, I think this applies to regular training too, not just dog sports. I lucked out that Chester came to me with pretty decent behavior and some training, but I definitely learned a TON from working through the various training/behavior issues with the fosters and realized along the way things that I could have done better when I first got Chester. I have since gone back and applied some of it to areas where he is still rough around the edges. Having worked through things like dog reactivity, learned a lot about body language in the pitties and gotten more coordinated in my own timing, all helped make Eva's arrival and transition into my household much smoother.
> 
> I learn something from basically every dog that stays with me even for a short period of time.


Definitely. Let me tell you, even things as basic as housebreaking and mouthiness are about 500% easier for me now after having dogs for a long time and done all that fostering. 

Kind of amazing and sort of beautiful, really. Dogs leave a legacy in a lot of ways.



Laurelin said:


> I don't like the idea of a 'learner dog'. I do think people improve the more dogs they have but I know a lot of people that have the most success with that first dog too. As long as you have fun, who cares? Just enjoy your dog, get out there and do stuff with him. You won't regret it even if he's not the best at it. There's always going to be a dog that is 'better' than yours in some way or another.


It bothers me when it's disparaging to dog or owner. I particularly hate the idea of 'leveling up in dog ownership', but I *don't* think people keeping their expectations down and recognizing that things will be rough sometimes and you are continually learning is a bad idea. Then again, I encounter more 'egos' than I want to admit in dog stuff where the objective isn't fun. It's winning. Especially when they haven't put in the time, training, work, and learning.

They usually don't last long.


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## Laurelin

I wish dog people could just be NICE to each other. I swear I encounter more bad attitudes in dog people than anywhere else. Luckily not the majority but some people are just nasty and unpleasant. I was at a trial this weekend with a couple and they really did affect some Newbies and even had them questioning whether they want to be involved at all. PEOPLE JUST BE NICE. IT'S NOT THAT HARD.


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## CptJack

I gripe about dog people, too, but to be honest? 

Anywhere it's a group dedicated to a specific hobby, interest, or... anything, you get this crap. Go to knitting groups? There's at least one person there sneering about the yarn you're using or people who crochet. Parenting groups? Oh. My. God. Gaming (console, rp, or tabletop)? Ahahaha - Jesus Christ. Even other athletics down to RUNNING - if you've got the wrong gear, there is SOMEONE who will mock you for it. And by wrong I mean 'not state of the art'.

There are jerks EVERYWHERE.


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## Laurelin

Yeah definitely true. I think it can sting more with dog people though because some of the judgment comes down on living, breathing beings that the person probably really cares about. No one wants to hear people bad mouth their 'babies'. Luckily it's not the majority. But especially for newcomers, those few bad apples are the ones they hear from the most sometimes.

Also I wish people would follow the rule that just because you THINK the handler is nowhere around doesn't mean you should say bad things about them.


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## LittleFr0g

CptJack said:


> I gripe about dog people, too, but to be honest?
> 
> Anywhere it's a group dedicated to a specific hobby, interest, or... anything, you get this crap. Go to knitting groups? There's at least one person there sneering about the yarn you're using or people who crochet. Parenting groups? Oh. My. God. Gaming (console, rp, or tabletop)? Ahahaha - Jesus Christ. Even other athletics down to RUNNING - if you've got the wrong gear, there is SOMEONE who will mock you for it. And by wrong I mean 'not state of the art'.
> 
> There are jerks EVERYWHERE.


Very true, we have a few of those on some of my snake/reptile groups too. Most are great, but a few, are just ....


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## Shell

CptJack said:


> Definitely. Let me tell you, even things as basic as housebreaking and mouthiness are about 500% easier for me now after having dogs for a long time and done all that fostering.
> 
> Kind of amazing and sort of beautiful, really. Dogs leave a legacy in a lot of ways.
> 
> 
> 
> It bothers me when it's disparaging to dog or owner. I particularly hate the idea of 'leveling up in dog ownership', but I *don't* think people keeping their expectations down and recognizing that things will be rough sometimes and you are continually learning is a bad idea. Then again, I encounter more 'egos' than I want to admit in dog stuff where the objective isn't fun. It's winning. Especially when they haven't put in the time, training, work, and learning.
> 
> They usually don't last long.


I've never competed in dog sports, but I competed for years in horse sports. I agree with Laurelin that the term "starter dog" (or "starter horse") can come across disparaging and be intentionally used as disparaging, but also agree with CptJack that _generally_ people progress in the skills and success as they move along and gain experience with a wider variety of dogs (or horses as I see quite a similarity in the behavior and training and competing aspects). Doesn't mean that you cannot be very successful with a first dog, just that there is so much to learn along the way. So relaxing and having fun and taking it as a learning experience and work-in-progress can make things a lot less stressful than thinking that you NEED to compete at some arbitrary level.

I mean, I could say that I was "most" successful with some of my early horses in terms of blue ribbons or best in shows, but that's mainly because I was competing on a lower level and competing with older, more well trained horses rather than the more green horses later on. Starting with a puppy can be a little like starting with a green horse, they don't yet have bad habits but they also don't really yet have good habits and carefully conditioned responses (which is a good reminder not to compare your young dog's training too much towards adult dogs that have their manners down pat). 
Or, to put it back into the horse analogy, I have ridden a horse trained for the Pan-American games and another that competed worldwide and because of the _horses'_ training, I could hop on and with only a modicum of skill look pretty impressive. But I've also ridden green mustangs and criollos and while we didn't LOOK anywhere near as good, it took a heck of a lot more skill on my part that I couldn't have done with "first horse"


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## elrohwen

I don't think that saying "when you get your next dog" is necessarily mean. As I said, it's common to make a lot of mistakes on your first sport dog and not accomplish the things you want to accomplish, and then do better on the next dog. It doesn't mean that the person thinks you must trade up to a "real dog", just that you will be a different and better trainer when the next dog comes along. I've had people say this type of thing to me knowing that my next dog will be another Welsh, and their intent is to say that things will be better with the next dog because I have a better idea of what I'm doing, not because the dog will be better. Personally I have never had someone question my choice of breed or tell me to get a "real breed" for whatever sport I'm trying, but then I train with a lot of people who own off breeds anyway.

And conformation is probably 90% about the dog at least in the classes. So if your dog is not suitable for showing in confo, then all you can do is practice until the next dog comes along. Happens even for people who looked for a conformation dog and went to the right breeder and picked the right puppy, and then the puppy didn't turn out as expected. So in that case, saying to practice until you get your next dog is about all you can do.


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## Amaryllis

This whole "his conformation is off, he'll never compete in sports!" is making me giggle. My dog has a badly healed broken hip. He can't run fast, that's true, but he can run, and run, and run, and run. He's got endurance for days. I suspect there is a 1,000 years of hounds in his lineage, who were never bred for making pretty in the ring, but who did hunt all day for a decade or more.

The truth is, conformation has NOTHING to do with performance. There are champion beagles who couldn't find a rabbit perched on their toes and champion border collies who couldn't herd a stuffed sheep. I've seen some funny-looking hounds (no specific kind, just hound) who would find you a rabbit in the middle of a museum and equally funny-looking retrievers who would fetch your duck from the middle of a volcano and bring it back without a feather singed.

If you want to compete in conformation, that's fine. Get an American conformation prospect and do that. I greatly respect some of our members who do conformation and I have nothing but well wishes for anyone who wants to join them. BUT, it's not the measure of a good dog.

Also, conFORmation is dog shows, conFIRmation is officially joining the Catholic church*. I keep thinking you're somehow getting in trouble with the Bishop because of your dog, lol.

*If you're a cradle Catholic like me. You can take the girl out of the church, but good luck getting the church out of the girl, as they say.


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## chimunga

ormommy said:


> Really? I would think that would have been a lot of peoples' purpose in buying a purebred. That's interesting.


People mostly buy pure-breds for consistency in temperament and predictability. There are variances dog to dog. But in general, every corgi I meet is going to have a similar temperament. I know what his size was going to be, I knew what his drive was going to be like, and I knew what his energy level would be. You can sometimes tell with mutts, but it mostly tends to be a crap-shoot. 



> I paid 1100. Eek. Before I did though, I contacted a reputable Brittany breeder, 2 reputable lab breeders, and 1 rep. Golden breeder in area, as well as my dog's breeder. Give or take 100 or so, that was what they charged. All had deposits ranging from 200-350, all had 3 year health guarantees, and all puppies came with first vet exam, first shots, dewormed, etc. All offered to let me visit and meet the parents of the puppies. All had references. Our breeder came the closest to mentioning show quality, which wasn't incredibly close. All were focused on temperament and intelligence (I mentioned obedience to every breeder, and I believe agility, but mostly obedience) and hunting. This is a popular hunting area for people who raise sporting dogs. I have friends who are unfortunately byb's who make a lot of money off their labs just because they have basic hunting training as puppies.


I paid $950 for Watson, sold with a s/n limited registration contract, and knowing that he has a *major *show fault (fluffiness).


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## elrohwen

ormommy said:


> Really? I would think that would have been a lot of peoples' purpose in buying a purebred. That's interesting.


Very very few people buying purebreds are doing it so they can show in conformation. So few that breeders in my breed have to beg new owners to show in conformation, or agree to pick up the tab for a professional handler so the dog gets out there. It's hard to find even one show buyer for most litters unless the breeder is breeding dogs who win big all the time.


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## ormommy

Amaryllis said:


> This whole "his conformation is off, he'll never compete in sports!" is making me giggle. My dog has a badly healed broken hip. He can't run fast, that's true, but he can run, and run, and run, and run. He's got endurance for days. I suspect there is a 1,000 years of hounds in his lineage, who were never bred for making pretty in the ring, but who did hunt all day for a decade or more.
> 
> The truth is, conformation has NOTHING to do with performance. There are champion beagles who couldn't find a rabbit perched on their toes and champion border collies who couldn't herd a stuffed sheep. I've seen some funny-looking hounds (no specific kind, just hound) who would find you a rabbit in the middle of a museum and equally funny-looking retrievers who would fetch your duck from the middle of a volcano and bring it back without a feather singed.
> 
> If you want to compete in conformation, that's fine. Get an American conformation prospect and do that. I greatly respect some of our members who do conformation and I have nothing but well wishes for anyone who wants to join them. BUT, it's not the measure of a good dog.
> 
> Also, conFORmation is dog shows, conFIRmation is officially joining the Catholic church*. I keep thinking you're somehow getting in trouble with the Bishop because of your dog, lol.
> 
> *If you're a cradle Catholic like me. You can take the girl out of the church, but good luck getting the church out of the girl, as they say.


Don't have a lot of time but had to LOL at this, as I am a convert to Catholicism.

And to say I really, really hate auto spell for this reason.


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## chimunga

ormommy said:


> I still got the feeling, though, kind of like you said, that this is my "practice" dog and that attitude really bugs me. Keep him, join the club, train for obedience and rally if I want, get a mentor, then get my "real dog".


Every dog is practice for the next dog. Watson is my first dog, and I adore him, and he is my heart-dog. But even at 10 months, I still think about what I'll do with NextDog. That's just the nature of getting so emotionally invested in an animal that doesn't live nearly as long as us. It's the human experience. Constantly learning and figuring out what you'll do next time. That doesn't mean I don't love my dog any less, or that the NextDog will be "better." Just different. Probably a little less reactive and a little more socialized.


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## PatriciafromCO

ormommy said:


> That's a cool story! At least my people tried to find good points to comment on (friendliness, intelligence) and were honest with their own dog's faults. I still got the feeling, though, kind of like you said, that this is my "practice" dog and that attitude really bugs me. Keep him, join the club, train for obedience and rally if I want, get a mentor, then get my "real dog".


I didn't mean what I said in a negative way or meant to imply your pup is a practice pup with no value.. far from it... Major was a correct standard GSD, working type and ability (was he extreme ski slope angle flashy show GSD wining in the ring at his time NO NO NO) By standards there was no fault in the dog.. not to get him in the ring and be evaluated .... Sorry you took it in a negative way....


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## sassafras

Well Squash IS a great beginner agility dog. He's so easygoing and he doesn't care about my handling mistakes and is pretty unaffected by them, we just try again. It's easy for him to relearn things correctly that I did the wrong way the first time around.

If Toast had been my first agility dog, I would have unintentionally taught him SO many wrong/bad things because he learns SO fast, he'd be learning my mistakes, kwim? Either that or he'd get frustrated with me. 

Doesn't mean Toast will be better _to me_, although to outsiders he'll probably appear to be objectively better since by the time he ever sets foot in a ring my handling skills will be better. But I think Squash will always be more fun, so he has that going for him. ;-)


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## CptJack

If I had tried to start agility with Molly, I would have had a nervous breakdown, torn all my hair out, cried a lot, and quit. 

I'm not claiming she's an 'upgrade' from Kylie because that's not it at all. So, maybe instead of saying Kylie is a good first dog, I'd be better off saying Molly would be a lousy one? Not that people can't make it work and do, but for ME she would have been a horrible choice. She's too reactive, too fast, and picks up on minute mistakes I make too easily. 

I often say Kylie makes me look good - and she does. In agility and in general, she compensates for and covers for my mistakes by being very forgiving, very fun, and very... willing to relearn what she thinks she knows because I taught her wrong. Molly? NONE OF THAT.

Kylie's not slow, stodgy or not fun. She's just got a lot more room for handler error hardwired in.


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## ormommy

> I agree with what everybody else has said. First off, your dog doesn't need to be perfectly constructed to be successful at agility or any other sport. I know a 3 legged beagle who runs agility and she's quite fast and very good at it. Conformation people like to tell you why every single aspect of the dog's confo will help or hinder it as an athlete, but keep in mind that they are evaluating every dog they see as a breeding prospect. They are essentially looking at whether the dog is exceptional enough to be bred and whether it will pass positive or negative traits to the breed. To have a good breeding program you need to be picky and see all of the small faults in a dog, as well as his good points, so that's what they were doing. I totally understand how it could feel hurtful, but that wasn't their intention. It sounds like they were very kind and it was nice of them to bring other dogs to show you. Breeders and show people can look at the number 1 dog in their breed and find faults with it.[QUOTE/]
> 
> Oh, they were very nice. And they found things to compliment about Frodo. I'm disappointed, but not hurt....except maybe a little with my breeder.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Conformation is really its own world and as Willowy said it's not something people do casually for the most part. The standards are fairly vague and you need to talk to people and mentor with someone to really understand what type of dogs they are looking for, and how correct the dog needs to be to win. It seems like you could take a moderately nice dog who doesn't have any major disqualifications and try them out, but most breeds are not like that. Lots of breeders won't even sell a show quality pup to a newbie, because they want to know for sure that the dog will be out there showing with a competent handler, and that the dog will finish its championship. And you probably won't find a show quality dog from someone who isn't actively showing their own dogs and being at least moderately successful.
> 
> As far as knowing how a dog will turn out at 3 months, I would say yes, you generally can tell. You can tell better at 2 months than 3, as they start to get into puppy uglies, but a good breeder who knows their stuff will be able to pick a show prospect as a puppy and it's unlikely that a dog who is not put together correctly will change (shoulder angles, for example, will not get better with age, and dogs do not grow into better balanced heads). When my dog was 5.5 weeks old my breeder thought he was nice, and at 8 weeks she thought he was one of the nicest males she had bred - she wasn't wrong and those things she saw in him at a young age are still there. So unfortunately I wouldn't pin hopes on him growing out of some of those faults.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't think so. I know breeders sell "show" puppies and wouldn't do so if you couldn't tell anything. But how do you become "that handler" without going out and doing it?
> It reminds me of job hunting. No one wants to hire that first time worker, but you can't get job experience without working.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the "practice dog" attitude extends to pretty much anyone with their first dog who wants to do any sports. People don't mean it to be snobby or rude, they just know from experience that we do a lot of learning on our first dog, and typically don't get very far with our goals. Once we get the next dog we are older and wiser and know what we want and how to get there with the dog. That applies in agility, obedience, Schutzhund, and even conformation. I happened to have a nice conformation dog dropped on my lap and it wasn't what I was looking for, so in that sense I got lucky on the first one. We are still very limited from advancing beyond his championship though because I do not have the experience or skills to handle or groom him to the level he needs to be. On the other hand, I don't know if we will ever get where I want to go with agility or obedience and I get a lot of comments about how he's my first dog and I'm just learning and making mistakes with him, and the next dog will be better. People aren't being rude, they are just being honest that they made mistakes with their first dogs too. Just focus on learning with him and training him. If you want to do confo in the future definitely take handling classes with him and learn how to do it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I guess....how did my breeder, or people who say that, know I want a multi-dog household? I have (give or take-hopefully!) 15+ years before I can try again, if I don't want or can't have more than one dog. That's why this is so disappointing...because at this point, I can't even picture it. We don't have acreage to let several dogs run on, nor do we have unlimited funds for vet bills, etc.
> I realize he's just a puppy and my views may change. But I had really intended this to be not only my first purebred puppy, but possibly my first show puppy, and 1. I thought I was clear with my breeder on that and 2. I did have the misconception that good breeding+good bloodlines=a chance at showing. One thing I've learned for "next dog" if there ever is one, is that most breeds in the sporting group have a field /bench divide.
> 
> And I love the spaniel breeds and the look of the Springer. I liked the look of her dogs. He's a beautiful puppy and I think he'll have a very unique appearance (which, while not popular in the ring right now, is still within standard). My last dog was an adult from a shelter and although a sweet dog, we never could overcome several issues- and I became seriously ill just a few months after his adoption, so the dynamic of our house totally shifted. We never even had a close ballpark on his age (told 2-5 years...he was a picked up stray.)
> So both lack of experience and situations were against us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As far as price, that's a pretty standard price for a pet quality pup. Pups in my breed general go for $1500 whether they are pet or show quality. For that price pretty much all dogs come from Ch or GCh parents, plus all health testing, and there are certainly a lot of puppies born who I would not consider conformation show quality even from that type of breeding pool. It's not easy to get a show pup.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's nice to know I wasn't ripped off for a "pet quality" dog. Seriously-I don't mean it to sound sarcastic. I've thought of contacting my breeder and saying how I wish she'd been more upfront with me about his prospects, but I decided that she overall was a good breeder, it seems like she priced me fair, I wasn't as clear as I should've been, and it would just hurt a relationship that I might really need in the future.
Click to expand...


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## CptJack

I think the thing is, people who are into conformation are into breeding - that's what conformation shows are for, the evaluation of breeding stock. It's really, really, hard to breed and only have one dog. So anyone getting into that seriously is *probably* not going to be single dog households. Even when its the owner of the 'stud' it's pretty danged uncommon. So probably, that's where people talking to you about 'the next' is coming from - usually the dog has a show career, gets the titles, gets bred, and then it's onto showing the NEXT dog/new generation, because improvements should have been made with the breeding. Some of those retired show dogs even get rehomed because the breeders can't keep them all (that's where my RT came from - he would actually have been a good 'first' show dog - already titled, but I could have learned with him, if I was interested in conformation/breeding)

That said, it sucks that your breeder wasn't clear with you about his prospects. Just... seriously sucks.


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## ormommy

PatriciafromCO said:


> I didn't mean what I said in a negative way or meant to imply your pup is a practice pup with no value.. far from it... Major was a correct standard GSD, working type and ability (was he extreme ski slope angle flashy show GSD wining in the ring at his time NO NO NO) By standards there was no fault in the dog.. not to get him in the ring and be evaluated .... Sorry you took it in a negative way....


Oh, no, I didn't take what you said in a negative way....I just meant I could relate to a little of the attitude of "ditch your dog" you experienced. I didn't have anything like that, but I did have the practice dog attitude a little.


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## PatriciafromCO

ormommy said:


> Oh, no, I didn't take what you said in a negative way....I just meant I could relate to a little of the attitude of "ditch your dog" you experienced. I didn't have anything like that, but I did have the practice dog attitude a little.


 great,, I truly believe that behind every great dog there is a great owner that believed in them ..


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## elrohwen

ormommy said:


> I didn't think so. I know breeders sell "show" puppies and wouldn't do so if you couldn't tell anything. But how do you become "that handler" without going out and doing it?
> It reminds me of job hunting. No one wants to hire that first time worker, but you can't get job experience without working.


It can be like that, especially with breeders who have big winning dogs and plenty of show homes to take them. But there are breeders out there who love to mentor new people and would be happy to sell you a show prospect. In some breeds they are thrilled to find show homes because there aren't enough out there.



> I guess....how did my breeder, or people who say that, know I want a multi-dog household? I have (give or take-hopefully!) 15+ years before I can try again, if I don't want or can't have more than one dog. That's why this is so disappointing...because at this point, I can't even picture it. We don't have acreage to let several dogs run on, nor do we have unlimited funds for vet bills, etc.
> I realize he's just a puppy and my views may change. But I had really intended this to be not only my first purebred puppy, but possibly my first show puppy, and 1. I thought I was clear with my breeder on that and 2. I did have the misconception that good breeding+good bloodlines=a chance at showing. One thing I've learned for "next dog" if there ever is one, is that most breeds in the sporting group have a field /bench divide.


I don't think people know that you want multiple dogs, but as most people in the dog world do have more than one it's an easy enough assumption. And as CptJack said, conformation people are breeders at heart and almost never have one dog. My dog's breeder only has one female living with her, because she's older and can't handle lots of dogs, but she co-owns a number of bitches and through the is able to have a couple litters a year. Even stud dog owners typically end up with more than one though you can easily show a stud dog through his entire life (bitches are usually retired for breeding).



> And I love the spaniel breeds and the look of the Springer. I liked the look of her dogs. He's a beautiful puppy and I think he'll have a very unique appearance (which, while not popular in the ring right now, is still within standard).


I think her dogs are very nice looking and he will be a good looking pup! Personally, I prefer his look over the American bench bred ESS.



> It's nice to know I wasn't ripped off for a "pet quality" dog. Seriously-I don't mean it to sound sarcastic. I've thought of contacting my breeder and saying how I wish she'd been more upfront with me about his prospects, but I decided that she overall was a good breeder, it seems like she priced me fair, I wasn't as clear as I should've been, and it would just hurt a relationship that I might really need in the future.


If she's not really involved in showing in the US, it's probable that she just doesn't know what types of dogs are winning or how to pick a winning show dog. It's not something you learn easily or pick up on your own. It's also very easy to become kennel blind and think your own dogs are the best if you don't get them out and compare them to other members of their breed. I don't think she's a bad breeder, judging from her site, but she's just not a show breeder. It does suck that she wasn't clear with you that that wasn't her area of expertise and she didn't really know how her puppies would perform in conformation shows.


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## Apricot

sassafras said:


> But I think Squash will always be more fun, so he has that going for him. ;-)


Truer words have never been typed.


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## mcdavis

We got our dog from a breeder who was very involved in conformation shows, and asked us if we'd be interested in showing because they thought he'd do well. This was when he was 10 weeks - 2 days later the vet took one look at him and told me he'd be significantly taller than the breed standard. The vet was correct, so I think it can be difficult for a breeder to predict how a dog will develop.


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