# Sticky  The Service Dog Thread



## Xeph

This thread is being created as a source of information for those who do not understand the basic ins and outs of the legal rights of service dog handlers.

I am not usually so presumptuous, but I would really appreciate it if this thread could be made into a sticky. We go 'round and 'round on service dog issues on this forum with relative frequency, and it's tiring to type it out over and over again.

First up, the difference between an emotional support animal and a service dog.

An emotional support animal is just like it sounds. It offers emotional support to its handler. These animals are exempt from "no pets" rules in rental housing and are allowed to fly on planes. While SOME states may grant them public access in every day stores, most do not, and the handler can legally be asked to remove their dog from the store.

A service dog is a dog trained in specific tasks that mitigate the disability of its handler. The ADA was recently amended, and the only animals legally allowed to be assistance animals are dogs and, in some cases, miniature horses (they have a separate provision).

A handler with a trained service dog has public access rights into ANY area the public is normally allowed (planes, trains, and automobiles, shops, movie theaters, etc).

In the United States of America, there is no registering body for service dogs. Because of this, "official paperwork" may not be required by anybody to "prove" a dog is a service dog. It doesn't exist. Though some service dog organizations may print out paperwork for clients that graduate from their school, all the paper means is that the dog was obtained from and trained by that organization. There is also no requirement in the United States that service dogs must be identified in any way, so dogs are allowed to go into stores and work "naked" (collar and leash must be used, of course).

For the record, I'm personally not interested in arguing on this thread, I'm just giving information. Some people feel it should be required for dogs to be identified and registered, yadda yadda yadda. All I'm here to tell you right now is that legally neither of the aforementioned things are required.

Next up, "safe guards" for shop owners and the like.

Things store owners are allowed to ask a service dog handler:
Is that a service dog?
What tasks does the dog perform to mitigate your disability? (and variations thereof)

Proper responses from a handler:
Yes
(Using my animal as an example) My dog assists me by pulling me in a wheel chair, acting as a brace, and picks up objects that I have dropped or cannot reach.

PLEASE NOTE that "My dog keeps me from being anxious" is not an acceptable response. A dog simply being present to keep somebody from being anxious is not a trained task, and thus the dog does not qualify as a service dog.

What a store owner may NOT ask/do:
What is your disability?
May I see your dog's paperwork proving it is a service dog?
Your dog is not identified as a service dog, so you'll need to remove the dog until it is identified.

Proper responses from a handler:
I'm sorry, but it is illegal for you to ask me that question. It is a violation of my privacy and you do not need to know the nature of my disability.

There is no registering body of service dogs in this country, and it is not legal for you to require to see paperwork for me to gain access with my service dog.

There is no legal requirement in this country stating that service dogs must be identified in any manner. You cannot require me to identify my dog.

There are certain cases in which a service dog may legally be excluded from being in attendance, such as in sterile environments like an operating room. The dog may not be excluded from the lobby/waiting room, because those are places the general public is allowed, but it may not go anywhere where it may introduce pathogens that could be harmful to patients (another such example is the ICU).

If a service dog is acting up in public (eliminates on the floor, is causing a disturbance, or is being a threat to other patrons), the handler may be asked to remove the dog, but the handler must be allowed to return, sans dog. That said, the dog cannot be barred from a place of business permanently based on what it did the LAST time it was present. The dog can only be judged at the time it is in attendance.

Link to the ADA section about service dogs:
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

FAQ for SDs in places of busines:
http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

And now, spectator etiquette!

When you see a service dog:
1. Do just that...SEE the service dog. Do not talk to it, do not try to pet it, do not bother the dog. The dog is there to work, not for your amusement.

2. If you see someone with a service dog and you MUST say something, acknowledge the HANDLER, not the dog, and please continue to follow rule #1. Do not say "What a beautiful dog!" and then immediately bend over to get in the dog's face, and proceed to tell it how beautiful and helpful it is. First of all, it's extremely rude, and secondly, while all service dogs should be able to handle ANYTHING, some dogs will take this as a threat, and you could get bitten. If you wouldn't do it with a strange dog you saw on the street, you shouldn't do it to the working dog!

3. Don't automatically assume a handler is blind.

4. To go along with #3, don't assume the handler is blind, and then tell your child it is ok to pet the dog, because the handler won't be able to see. I can't tell you how other handlers will react, but I will verbally eviscerate you, because that is NOT COOL!

5. Do not accuse a person of not having a real service dog because they are not blind. Not all disabilities are visible.

6. Admire, but do not gawk. It is not polite to stare, and that extends to staring at the dog. This includes doing things like pointing out the dog to your child (unless you plan on educating the child). So incredibly rude and obnoxious.

7. Do not get mad when a handler does what they need to do to protect their partner. If this includes yelling at you or your child, so be it. I personally try to be very diplomatic, and give people a chance to back off...but if you're going to stalk me around the store and get in my way while I'm shopping, you are not going to be met with a happy person.

8. To go with #7, respect the space of the handler and the dog. This doesn't mean we expect people to move out of our way or significantly alter how they are shopping. All it means is that we would appreciate it if you would LOOK where you're walking. If the handler says "excuse me", please give them some room to pass. You would do the same for a person without a service dog, wouldn't you? 

9. You don't have to like it that the dog is in the store, but as long as the dog is a legitimate working animal, there's nothing you can do about it. Being nasty won't help anybody. Just tolerate the dog, do what you gotta do in the store, and be on your way, like any other day.

10. Do not scream when you see the dog. The dog is there to work, and really couldn't give two craps about you. They will walk by you as if you don't even exist. They will not (should not) bite you or otherwise bother you. As far as they're concerned, you're little more than a utility pole in the middle of the aisle.

11. It does not matter where you see the dog or what the dog is doing. It doesn't matter if the dog is in a static position (sitting, standing, or laying on the floor). The dog is working at ALL TIMES. The dog is not taking a break. The dog is doing as the handler requested, and is holding that position for a REASON. Do not distract the dog from its task. Interfering with a working service dog is an illegal offense!

12. Control and EDUCATE your children! Explain to them that they cannot run up to strange dogs (this is a good rule of thumb anyway), and explain WHY they cannot run up to strange dogs. If your child gets away from you to go after the dog anyway, PLEASE be sure to APOLOGIZE to the handler! Also explain to the child that the dog is a "helper/working dog". Do not tell them what kind of work the dog does, because you don't know.

Not all service dog handlers are blind. Telling the child every time you see a service dog that the handler is blind, or is only a helping trainer teaching the dog to help the blind becomes a perpetual string of misinformation. That child will pass it along to another, and another, and another, and eventually, one of them will likely accuse a handler that ISN'T blind of being a fake.

13. Reiterating rule #1!!!! My dog is medical equipment. Please do not talk to my dog. You wouldn't talk to a wheelchair, you shouldn't talk to my dog.

Talking to my dog also includes extending praise to my dog. You have no right to praise my dog or give my dog commands. Why? Because aside from the fact that he is WORKING, he is MY dog, not YOUR dog.

I understand that you're trying to be kind, but what you're really being is RUDE! It is also much, much easier for my dog to ignore someone touching them (I will reiterate that you need to not touch my dog either), but it's pretty doggone hard to ignore somebody that's in your face, and there comes a realistic point where I can no longer be mad at the dog for responding to his environment.

Admire all you want. Ask me questions if you feel comfortable doing so. But do not. Talk. To my dog.


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## PyrettaBlaze

Thank you so much for this Xeph! My son had a SD a few years ago and we got asked all the time by store and restaurant managers to show papers from his doctor and papers proving Stryke had graduated special training and wasn't just a family dog that we stuck a vest on. I just kept them in my purse all the time. I never knew that they couldn't demand to see them. I was scared to go anywhere without them. I guess had I done the research that I should have done I would've known that. Now, I feel like I spent those years being a complete idiot frantic about those papers (I made copies for every family member that might have my son and his dog out and about). LOL


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## LittleFr0g

Xeph said:


> This thread is being created as a source of information for those who do not understand the basic ins and outs of the legal rights of service dog handlers.
> 
> I am not usually so presumptuous, but I would really appreciate it if this thread could be made into a sticky. We go 'round and 'round on service dog issues on this forum with relative frequency, and it's tiring to type it out over and over again.


Your wish is my command. And I agree, with the frequency this subject comes up, an informational sticky is a VERY good idea. Thanks for taking the time to type this up, Xeph.


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## Julee and Embyr

Thank you for typing this out, and Kuma'sMom for sticky-ing it.


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## cshellenberger

Thank you Xeph!


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## DJEtzel

I have a question... this is something that came up in conversation yesterday with my boyfriend's family regarding service dogs (as they raise leader dogs)...

And I'm honestly not sure at all how to look at/handle this situation, but it applies to me.

As most people here know, I work at a very large, private dog park. We have an office where visitors must first come through, sign up/pay, and their dogs must pass vaccination and temperament test screening with other dogs prior to entering the 25-acre park. We also have a ban on bully breeds.

SO, what should we do if a Pit Bull comes in as a service dog with handler (these situations all assuming there is another dog with that fits all the requirements for our park & wants to visit..), an unvaccinated service dog, or (the worst problem..) a DOG AGGRESSIVE service dog... Obviously letting any of these service dogs into our park could put our members in danger and strictly goes against what our policies are.

Where could we drawn the line, if anywhere, what would we say, what legal bearing do we and the handler's each have? I feel like I cannot legally tell a handler their dog can't visit as they may sue, but I cannot let a dangerous dog into the park, either. I feel like the chances of this ever happening are slim, but what if they do? I would hope anyone thinking of doing this could just respect our policies and not try to push the issue, but if they did... 

I brought it up to my boss and she was going to consult her attorney about it. I figured I'd ask others with a service dog how they would expect or know (per the laws I'm not as familiar with) it to be handled. Thanks in advance!


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## Rescued

to my knowledge, a service dog is legally allowed to be asked to leave if it is putting other members/people of the establishment in danger. I'll try to find the exact law, but for example if bubba began growling and barking at a patron, we could legally both be asked to leave (and i would be able to return sans bubba).

i imagine this would apply to the dog park as well.

edit: found it!

http://www.ada.gov/archive/animal.htm



> Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?
> 
> A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually.
> 
> Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises.


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## DJEtzel

Rescued said:


> to my knowledge, a service dog is legally allowed to be asked to leave if it is putting other members/people of the establishment in danger. I'll try to find the exact law, but for example if bubba began growling and barking at a patron, we could legally both be asked to leave (and i would be able to return sans bubba).
> 
> i imagine this would apply to the dog park as well.
> 
> edit: found it!
> 
> http://www.ada.gov/archive/animal.htm


Ok. That makes sense. Now I'm just wondering about vaccinations and breeds. Do we need to make exceptions for them and potentially lose clients/customers?


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## Rescued

DJEtzel said:


> Ok. That makes sense. Now I'm just wondering about vaccinations and breeds. Do we need to make exceptions for them and potentially lose clients/customers?


honestly i know of very few unvaccinated/ bully breed assistance dogs (NOT therapy dogs) but in the event that one did show up then yes I think that legally you would need to make an exemption. Honestly though im not sure, as the dog would likely be "off duty" in the dog park. maybe xeph can clear this one up- I would probably file it under "things that are not likely to happen."


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## DJEtzel

Rescued said:


> honestly i know of very few unvaccinated/ bully breed assistance dogs (NOT therapy dogs) but in the event that one did show up then yes I think that legally you would need to make an exemption. Honestly though im not sure, as the dog would likely be "off duty" in the dog park. maybe xeph can clear this one up- I would probably file it under "things that are not likely to happen."


Right, I'm hoping it never would and it's unlikely someone wouldn't understand, it's just one of those complicated loopholes I love thinking about and questioning.


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## RedGermanPinscher

It is my understanding that you can only exclude a service animal when their presence poses an immediate threat to the well-being of those around it.. Such as in a sterile environment or Should they exibhit inappropriate behavior.. Not because of a pre conceived notion as to what MIGHT occur....


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## Rescued

DJEtzel said:


> Right, I'm hoping it never would and it's unlikely someone wouldn't understand, it's just one of those complicated loopholes I love thinking about and questioning.


If the dog park is not generally open to the public without some sort of admissions process, its considered private and we have always been told that legally they do not have to say yes- for example, the private country club here and my grandmas private retirement facility do not have to allow bubba, because they do not have to allow anyone in, if that makes sense.

So if the dog park is "show up, pay $5, and come in" then I believe you would have to allow any service dog. If the facility is "hi mrs. jones, glad to see you and your dog again" then no, you could deny the service dog admission on the grounds of banned breed/ banned vaccine status.

I may be wrong. But we don't bring bubba to my grandmas dinners in her dining area for the senior residents haha, and thats the reasoning behind it.


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## 3doglady

Xeph, I hope you don't mind my adding few additional notes for dog guides and GD’s who do service the blind. I know your post was geared towards those who are not blind, but I've heard some really crazy stories from those who are. Below is based on conversations and feedback from folks that I have met over the years who have dog guides.

1)	Please do not interfere with the handler and dog. The dog is focusing on following through on commands to guide their owner safely through crowds and traffic. The dog knows a car is coming, even if the owner does not. If you grab the collar or pet the dog, it is similar to grabbing the steering wheel while someone else is driving. They are working together and the dog guide knows what he's doing, even if it doesn't appear that way.

2)	Do not offer the dog treats! Again, the dog is working and needs to focus on the task at hand. If the owner wants to provide treats to the dog, that is their prerogative, not yours. (see #1). 

3)	People with service dogs, are people. They have good days and bad days, social preferences, jobs to perform, places to go, hobbies and interests, likes and dislikes. Be respectful of that and understand, while they may be open to conversation, they may also have more pressing things to do.

4)	Don’t assume that the dog is unhappy or working too hard. That serious look on the dog’s face, is the dog focusing, not a statement of their emotions. SD’s actually enjoy performing their job, and they need to focus in order to do it right. They know when they are at work and they know when they can relax and play, (yes, they do get to relax and play). When a dog is working, they are focused on their job, just like you would be at your job.

5) There has been an increase in the number of dog guides attacked by other dogs while in service. Attacks on dog guides have resulted from pet dogs being walked on leash, or tied up outside of a store, or just a loose, roaming dog. If you witness an attack, please do step forward and offer assistance. While an incident can be reported, the owner cannot recover medical bills or press charges without identifying the attacker. Your help with identification, or asking what you can do to help, can make a big difference in the outcome. It is an emotionally and physically distressing situation for both the dog and the owner. In many cases, the dog may end up retiring from service, due to the physical or psychological impact.


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## Xeph

> I know your post was geared towards those who are not blind


Not really  Just SDs in general. Though I can see how it may have read that way.

I have a friend who uses a guide dog, but she is not blind. She has a sensory processing disorder and gets lost easily


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## Rescued

3doglady said:


> 1)	Please do not interfere with the handler and dog. The dog is focusing on following through on commands to guide their owner safely through crowds and traffic. The dog knows a car is coming, even if the owner does not.* If you grab the collar or pet the dog, it is similar to grabbing the steering wheel while someone else is driving.* They are working together and the dog guide knows what he's doing, even if it doesn't appear that way.


Bubba is going in for final training in two weeks  but for any future readers of this thread, I cannot stress this enough!! I'm only the trainer, not the blind handler, but we work SO HARD on distractions that shouldn't even occur in the first place due to people just being *too* friendly.


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## ackerleynelson

All the best.


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## Kjalways

What are the rights of Therapy Dogs and Emotional Support Dogs? Would they train my dog too? My dog really have helped me... I am doing so much better with him in my life! My health has improved and my moods are happier now... still am growing.

I am curious to know. By the way I was curious what Xept has to say about the Private Dog Park question about their policies.


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## Xeph

Therapy dogs and emotional support dogs, in general, have no public access rights with their handlers. They are not task trained.

Whether or not they are allowed in public places where dogs are generally not accepted is based on the laws of the state you are currently in. Emotional support animals are generally allowed to fly in cabin with their handler.

Any dog that is aggressive towards anybody can be excluded from the premises, service dog or not


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## ackerleynelson

Thanks a lot Xeph for sharing such a wonderful post. It is really awesome.


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## Kjalways

Xeph said:


> Therapy dogs and emotional support dogs, in general, have no public access rights with their handlers. They are not task trained.
> 
> Whether or not they are allowed in public places where dogs are generally not accepted is based on the laws of the state you are currently in. Emotional support animals are generally allowed to fly in cabin with their handler.
> 
> Any dog that is aggressive towards anybody can be excluded from the premises, service dog or not


I want to take my dog with me on my flight, but he is too tall according to their carry on standard nor could I afford it if he was short enough ($150) or to carry him below the plane ($175). I would feel much happier with him by me! I want him to be more trained to be more calm and quiet around other people and animals, so I won't get into trouble.

I see people bring their dogs in stores without anybody saying anything, and they were not service dogs. I am not sure what the laws on this.


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## Xeph

You have to pay for your dog to fly if you do not truly need an emotional support dog or service dog. End of story. I have to pay for my pet dogs to fly, even though my SD rides with me for free (and there are certain circumstances where he cannot ride with me and must be below the plane).

People that are bringing their non SDs into stores that do not allow dogs are breaking the law and could be cited.


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## Tom Drinkwater

Coming from retail management and now owning an SD I have been on both sides of the issue. On the retail management side it's almost never worth approaching a dog and handler due to the liability you open the business up to by potentially discriminating against someone. I wouldn't worry about myself mishandling the issue but I've seen countless times where no matter how well you think you train a sales associate or cashier they screw up in a really big way and next thing you know there are lawyers involved. On the SD handler/owner side of the issue part of me would love it if the stores enforced their "no pets" policy because it would reduce the risk of my animal getting distracted or worse. In reality though I'm pretty satisfied overall with the happy medium that I find in most stores where you might get a nod from the manager upon entrance and then you may see a well behaved pet dog minding it's own business down one of the aisles. I don't appreciate people bringing their pets into public areas or places of public accommodation when they don't necessarily have legally protected access but if store personnel are aware of the dog presence and don't ask the owner to remove the animal then consent is basically implied considering there aren't any laws that strictly prohibit dogs from being in a Home Depot or at the cafe. I like to think that most places reserve the right to ask any misbehaving dog to leave but use their judgment to allow access to well behaved dogs. 

The only time I had to ask someone to remove their dog from the store I worked at was when I found a chihuahua tearing through the lumber department off leash and followed him back to his people. I asked the owner to take control of his dog and please remove it from the store for the safety of our customers, staff and the safety of the dog. He told me it was his service dog but I kicked him out anyways. I wasn't about to let that little rascal get run over by a forklift because he had a crappy owner.


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## Tom Drinkwater

One of the things that drives me nuts about taking a dog into public is that for some strange reason people will stare him down. My dog Bear is a very sweet and gentle black lab but when he is in work mode, his vest is on and his boy is attached to him his sentinel instincts are turned on so if you're a stranger locking eyes with him could potentially get you bitten. Why someone would think that locking eyes with any dog is a good idea I'll never know. 

As far as the No Bully Breeds thing at the private members only dog park that is a good question. It will really depend on whether or not the state has a BSL that targets Pit Bull breeds because that would also extend to Pit Bulls being used as SD's. If the state does not discriminate against Pit Bulls then I would think that the park would have no choice but to grant the Pit Bull SD access because it would do so if the dog were any other breed and a SD is a SD 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, even when the vest is off and it is catching a frisbee. The park is a place of public accommodation, not to be confused with a publicly owned place, and just like the movie theatre or a restaurant you have to pay to gain access and stay while you enjoy the services so It would be no different at a members only dog park. That policy would discriminate against the person as much as the dog.


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## Lauriesmith

i hope that it works well and everything goes on fine. all the best for it...


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## puppycat

Does anyone know where Australia stands in regards to emotional support animals? Are they considered service animals, are they recognized separately like in the US, are they just not recognized at all, or is it something else? Thank you!


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## keltic

Great thread.
The outcome of a SD. but the beginning should be addressed also, basic human/dog rights.
I have been all over this life, and no matter on top or what's left for me never has this not been the best way to go.
Get a lawyerise lawyer. Not your family or business guy, but a nice older criminal lawyer.
No one is better at telling you what not to do than a man that spent his life getting others out of what they did.
And his only job for you is to read or make the contract loop hole free.
A service dog or just dog in general has rights, but to enforce those rights the owner/handler needs to have no ground work for the other side to work from.
You need to have gone a little passed what you can humanly do to insure your side. In the eyes of the law.
Have a gate in your fenced in yard? you know to check it after every guest, delivery, sometimes hourly as it is a fact in the laws eyes people leave "others" property and the home owner is the foreseeable person that maintains it. I.E if the lawyer on the other side good you loose.
Only way around it another fenced in area around back door with one key on your person don't hang keys! or a camera and alarm to go off if latch not engaged in so many minutes. In eyes of the law you got a good foundation to show you went above the human limit and now they look at the other side poorly.
Same goes with SD's most owners great but then you get the slackers, Dog in poor shape, not groomed, flea ridden not healthy etc. the owner has a responsibility to offer an animal basic care and safety to the community.
If you leave a foundation as this for a case then you make it easy and poor on other SDs.
The boarders to another country, not all only thinking of Can. to US you need to have the basic shots up to date with proof to get across, same should be enforced by all areas be store, park, another home.
You park area can enforce your dog not only have all basic shots but the bor. one for the cough is contagious.
The vet itself will tell you, as selling it, if you take your dog on public area walks get the added shot and year around flea, this can be used for the park as it is recommended for over all protection of all. 
The park needs lawyerise here but if the law is for all then nothing a SD dog can do but comply.
Look into the law for your state if the landlord contract is enforced with higher rates for "risk breeds" then the park may be able to have the same for the user agreement, one law can help or hurt other areas, but if you go this way be set for being perfect yourself.


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## Xeph

> A service dog or just dog in general has rights


No, it does not. Welfare points, yes. Rights? No.

I'm not even sure what the point of your post is, honestly.


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## keltic

Xeph said:


> No, it does not. Welfare points, yes. Rights? No.
> 
> I'm not even sure what the point of your post is, honestly.


The right of any dog is to be treated as the state says, I did not say legal right, but the right to be to be safe to the community and as in the law to go over the border a right to basic shots, if you can get a lawyer to word it right using the law to your needs for a better screening to your place or expectations of a SD or just dog.

Using a lawyer can help you or prevent you with a contract when it comes to an area as open as dogs use it for you but protect yourself too.
SD have been boned when it comes to treatment but now people are adding others to cover taking fido anywhere, get a lawyer to protect yourself as I have seen many ways to keep you and your dogs out just by passed care, passed doings and what condition are.
Basic law says anything must be safe to the community, can't get a dog lis. unless you have at least rabies done on him, that holds for getting into a park if you have a agreement drawn up.
You can legally only see your old grandparent when you want to, but if you are on paper responsible not checking up can be abuse if they need more.
You may not want people near your SD got a vest on him to say no petting but if he bites someone that is not going to stop a good lawyer from saying you did not have a safe dog and knew it by saying no petting, you knew the issue was there by placing the patch on in the 1st place.
Talk to a lawyer as SD and just dogs have been used, remember this country sued for a pickle being to hot and they won.
It's nice to say close the gate but how many dogs get out because the gate was left openand you just let him out the back door?
Nice to do up a page of and when I am out you don't do this to me or my dog, I want a parking space to open up for me on lunch hour too when I am on the clock think one will?
People are people and will do as they will reach out and pet your dog, stand in your way even though you need space for two, and yes, people do talk to wheelchairs and you in it as the 3rd person.
In the end if the dog wigs out you will be held responsible, we have 1 time bite law no matter one report next is death.
Agreements can be made for the park as all would have to go by it for safety of all.
So working up a your rude if you pet .... if you talk..... if you whatever really don't matter calling others rude sort of mean anyways. I would not say that anyone not like you is the rude one.


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## Xeph

Ain't no thang


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## Canyx

Two service dog questions:

-Why have service dogs instead of people who are paid to live with and help the disabled? 

-Is there a lot of correction/punishment used in the training process? It's just hard for me to imagine dogs completely ignore ALL distractions without that kind of training.

I know there are many different kinds of service dogs so I guess I'm asking very generally. And I know my questions sound very anti-service dog but really I have a lot of respect for the service dog world and am just asking out of curiosity.


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## CptJack

Canyx said:


> -Why have service dogs instead of people who are paid to live with and help the disabled?


This one I can answer:

Money. Service dogs are expensive, yeah, but nowhere NEAR the amount you would have to pay a person to do what service dogs do - which is basically be on hand 24/7. 

And aside from that service dogs don't impact independence by being a major intrusion on a person's life the way another person going everywhere with them, all the time, everywhere would (and frankly, I'd rather have a service dog than another human being shadowing me 24/7). That's not even touching some things dogs can do that people just can't like detect seizures, or the fact that you'd have to hire about 3 people because of shifts, or have someone willing to work twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, doing fairly boring and repetitive tasks. And, again circling back to money.


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## RBark

> -Is there a lot of correction/punishment used in the training process? It's just hard for me to imagine dogs completely ignore ALL distractions without that kind of training.


This is why dogs are specifically bred or selected to have the proper temperament. There are many dogs that naturally ignore all distractions with only a little bit of training.

Not to mention that not all dogs are designed to ignore all distractions. Hearing Dogs, Guide dogs, etc are supposed to respond to distractions. Their response is redirected, not suppressed.


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## Rescued

Canyx said:


> -Is there a lot of correction/punishment used in the training process? It's just hard for me to imagine dogs completely ignore ALL distractions without that kind of training.


Redirection, yes. Correction? no, I wouldn't say so. Punishment? definitely not as you want the dog to be HAPPY around distractions not afraid.

As one of my coworkers put it when I was doing walking drills with nug in our parking lot yesterday (just practicing the same stuff he did in the kennel)

"Rescued.... he just looks SO FREAKING HAPPY to be following you around and stopping when you tell him to."

The dogs that make it (and nug didnt even make it) dont think of it as work, and are generally not "hard" dogs.


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## Canyx

Thanks for the insight guys! I guess these questions partly came up because I was in a pet store the other day and a lady was training service dogs, a pit mix and a beagle mix. They were both wearing gentle leaders and both clearly wanted to interact with other dogs (breaking stays to go greet them, etc) and each of the many times they'd do that, the woman would pull them down to the ground by their gentle leaders. I thought, "well if that's what it takes to get a service dog to not react inappropriately to distractions..."
But I don't know what she was training them to do. She has a facility and runs an organization (forgot the name) to train service dogs for veterans.


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## RBark

Canyx said:


> Thanks for the insight guys! I guess these questions partly came up because I was in a pet store the other day and a lady was training service dogs, a pit mix and a beagle mix. They were both wearing gentle leaders and both clearly wanted to interact with other dogs (breaking stays to go greet them, etc) and each of the many times they'd do that, the woman would pull them down to the ground by their gentle leaders. I thought, "well if that's what it takes to get a service dog to not react inappropriately to distractions..."
> But I don't know what she was training them to do. She has a facility and runs an organization (forgot the name) to train service dogs for veterans.


Not all trainers are the same. I can understand the Pit, but a beagle mix is a strange one. Regardless, I have no doubt there are incompetent trainers out there, just as with anything else in life!


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## PatriciafromCO

I love seeing what dogs are able to learn to assist.. wanted to share, if this is not right for the thread I'll understand if it gets deleted..


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## Greater Swiss

Ok....I gotta ask, and this is probably (heh, probably, it is.....) a really really dumb question, but the pictures brought it to mind and I'm curious....are there any dogs that can put the pin code in? I know dogs can be trained to recognize numbers....so....


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## Xeph

To my knowledge, no. The buttons are frequently too small for them to do anything without causing an issue.


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## PatriciafromCO

I know from a local news story that a guy was able to program a phone that only dialed 911 when any button was pushed and trained his service dog to get the phone to help.. The dog did do it in a real life situation when his owner was unconscious and help did arrive thus the news story..


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## Xeph

There are special phones made for that, yes, but not ATMs or anything like that


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## Tjrsports

I own a service dog and am glad this thread was posted. He is small and I do not have a visible disability, so we face out fair share of discrimination. The hardest thing for me to deal with is how many people ask what I have him for or what is wrong with me... ugh.


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## pet_heaven

Thank you for typing this out


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## baldjerry

I had a dog I trained as my Service Dog due to being hearing impaired. When I adopted him and this was before marriage, and will get to that part and remember before marriage I wanted a dog that barked at anything and everything. When going to a place where they were adopting out dogs all I could hear was this dog barking non-stop and their were tons of dogs there and I was on the search for him and found him. He was still young and I would have to say about 4 to 5 months old and he was the one. I did all the paperwork for him as they had me sign a contract with them that if I could not keep him I could not give him away he had to be returned to them. When I was walking him out to the car I could see he was really scared of cars and could just read his body language when someone was close or a car was coming. It was like he was already trained for me. Weird part was not only was he afraid of cars he was afraid to get in and think that he was bounced around a lot in a car as no one would adopt him because he barked at anything and everything. Doorbell rings right to the door and barking. I had a cheap alarm clock at the time and always told people if I needed to be up at a certain time as I worked afternoon shift and the alarm was going off and there he was whimpering away then barking as I did not hear the alarm and no one woke me up, but he did. I remember one time I dropped my wallet getting out of the truck and did not know it until he was walking with it in his mouth carrying it. 

It was like I got a trained Service Dog just by adopting him. Remember how I said in the beginning before marriage? Well I ended up getting divorced and despite him being pre-marital and even having a contract to prove it, it was stated between my ex-wife and me we were both in possession of all of our pre-marital property. NOT. When I was in the Hospital that is when she left and took all the pets with her too including him. 

I know their is a lot of Rights for people with Service Animals, but not in divorce where I live. I fought to get him back and all I got was "Doggy Visitation" getting him every other weekend. So I basically had a contract showing he was pre-marital and it was stated we were both in possession of are pre-marital property, but my great marvelous ex-wife I could write pages on this post would not give him back and neither would the Court System. I am surprised she didn't want one of my hearing aids since they were the ones you wear in the ear that cost around 3,000.00 when I got one or demand half of the money for the cost of one. I would gladly share my hearing loss with her 50/50 and I believe it was said a long time back I lost around the high 60% range. 

I know all about the ADA, questions people can ask you, and how powerful the ADA is, but in divorce where I live in divorce getting your Service Animal and despite him being a pre-marital asset means nothing.


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## Jonathantorres

I'm sorry but I have what might seem like a silly question. A couple of times a month I volunteer at a retirement home and it's fun but now I have a 4 month old puppy and would like to bring her with. She's had obedience training, house training, doesn't bark and is very friendly. I was wondering if I could register as an emotional support dog and take her to see the elderly or not because I'm her handler and not the one receiving the emotional support. And if so does she need any further training? Any training I couldn't provide myself? Thank you in advance.


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## Crantastic

What you want is for her to be a Therapy Dog: http://www.tdi-dog.org/


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## Piddle Place

Thank you so much! My Kippers was a service dog for my son (who since passed away). I so appreciate your sharing this with the community.

Kathy



Xeph said:


> This thread is being created as a source of information for those who do not understand the basic ins and outs of the legal rights of service dog handlers.
> 
> I am not usually so presumptuous, but I would really appreciate it if this thread could be made into a sticky. We go 'round and 'round on service dog issues on this forum with relative frequency, and it's tiring to type it out over and over again.
> 
> First up, the difference between an emotional support animal and a service dog.
> 
> An emotional support animal is just like it sounds. It offers emotional support to its handler. These animals are exempt from "no pets" rules in rental housing and are allowed to fly on planes. While SOME states may grant them public access in every day stores, most do not, and the handler can legally be asked to remove their dog from the store.
> 
> A service dog is a dog trained in specific tasks that mitigate the disability of its handler. The ADA was recently amended, and the only animals legally allowed to be assistance animals are dogs and, in some cases, miniature horses (they have a separate provision).
> 
> A handler with a trained service dog has public access rights into ANY area the public is normally allowed (planes, trains, and automobiles, shops, movie theaters, etc).
> 
> In the United States of America, there is no registering body for service dogs. Because of this, "official paperwork" may not be required by anybody to "prove" a dog is a service dog. It doesn't exist. Though some service dog organizations may print out paperwork for clients that graduate from their school, all the paper means is that the dog was obtained from and trained by that organization. There is also no requirement in the United States that service dogs must be identified in any way, so dogs are allowed to go into stores and work "naked" (collar and leash must be used, of course).
> 
> For the record, I'm personally not interested in arguing on this thread, I'm just giving information. Some people feel it should be required for dogs to be identified and registered, yadda yadda yadda. All I'm here to tell you right now is that legally neither of the aforementioned things are required.
> 
> Next up, "safe guards" for shop owners and the like.
> 
> Things store owners are allowed to ask a service dog handler:
> Is that a service dog?
> What tasks does the dog perform to mitigate your disability? (and variations thereof)
> 
> Proper responses from a handler:
> Yes
> (Using my animal as an example) My dog assists me by pulling me in a wheel chair, acting as a brace, and picks up objects that I have dropped or cannot reach.
> 
> PLEASE NOTE that "My dog keeps me from being anxious" is not an acceptable response. A dog simply being present to keep somebody from being anxious is not a trained task, and thus the dog does not qualify as a service dog.
> 
> What a store owner may NOT ask/do:
> What is your disability?
> May I see your dog's paperwork proving it is a service dog?
> Your dog is not identified as a service dog, so you'll need to remove the dog until it is identified.
> 
> Proper responses from a handler:
> I'm sorry, but it is illegal for you to ask me that question. It is a violation of my privacy and you do not need to know the nature of my disability.
> 
> There is no registering body of service dogs in this country, and it is not legal for you to require to see paperwork for me to gain access with my service dog.
> 
> There is no legal requirement in this country stating that service dogs must be identified in any manner. You cannot require me to identify my dog.
> 
> There are certain cases in which a service dog may legally be excluded from being in attendance, such as in sterile environments like an operating room. The dog may not be excluded from the lobby/waiting room, because those are places the general public is allowed, but it may not go anywhere where it may introduce pathogens that could be harmful to patients (another such example is the ICU).
> 
> If a service dog is acting up in public (eliminates on the floor, is causing a disturbance, or is being a threat to other patrons), the handler may be asked to remove the dog, but the handler must be allowed to return, sans dog. That said, the dog cannot be barred from a place of business permanently based on what it did the LAST time it was present. The dog can only be judged at the time it is in attendance.
> 
> Link to the ADA section about service dogs:
> http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
> 
> FAQ for SDs in places of busines:
> http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm
> 
> And now, spectator etiquette!
> 
> When you see a service dog:
> 1. Do just that...SEE the service dog. Do not talk to it, do not try to pet it, do not bother the dog. The dog is there to work, not for your amusement.
> 
> 2. If you see someone with a service dog and you MUST say something, acknowledge the HANDLER, not the dog, and please continue to follow rule #1. Do not say "What a beautiful dog!" and then immediately bend over to get in the dog's face, and proceed to tell it how beautiful and helpful it is. First of all, it's extremely rude, and secondly, while all service dogs should be able to handle ANYTHING, some dogs will take this as a threat, and you could get bitten. If you wouldn't do it with a strange dog you saw on the street, you shouldn't do it to the working dog!
> 
> 3. Don't automatically assume a handler is blind.
> 
> 4. To go along with #3, don't assume the handler is blind, and then tell your child it is ok to pet the dog, because the handler won't be able to see. I can't tell you how other handlers will react, but I will verbally eviscerate you, because that is NOT COOL!
> 
> 5. Do not accuse a person of not having a real service dog because they are not blind. Not all disabilities are visible.
> 
> 6. Admire, but do not gawk. It is not polite to stare, and that extends to staring at the dog. This includes doing things like pointing out the dog to your child (unless you plan on educating the child). So incredibly rude and obnoxious.
> 
> 7. Do not get mad when a handler does what they need to do to protect their partner. If this includes yelling at you or your child, so be it. I personally try to be very diplomatic, and give people a chance to back off...but if you're going to stalk me around the store and get in my way while I'm shopping, you are not going to be met with a happy person.
> 
> 8. To go with #7, respect the space of the handler and the dog. This doesn't mean we expect people to move out of our way or significantly alter how they are shopping. All it means is that we would appreciate it if you would LOOK where you're walking. If the handler says "excuse me", please give them some room to pass. You would do the same for a person without a service dog, wouldn't you?
> 
> 9. You don't have to like it that the dog is in the store, but as long as the dog is a legitimate working animal, there's nothing you can do about it. Being nasty won't help anybody. Just tolerate the dog, do what you gotta do in the store, and be on your way, like any other day.
> 
> 10. Do not scream when you see the dog. The dog is there to work, and really couldn't give two craps about you. They will walk by you as if you don't even exist. They will not (should not) bite you or otherwise bother you. As far as they're concerned, you're little more than a utility pole in the middle of the aisle.
> 
> 11. It does not matter where you see the dog or what the dog is doing. It doesn't matter if the dog is in a static position (sitting, standing, or laying on the floor). The dog is working at ALL TIMES. The dog is not taking a break. The dog is doing as the handler requested, and is holding that position for a REASON. Do not distract the dog from its task. Interfering with a working service dog is an illegal offense!
> 
> 12. Control and EDUCATE your children! Explain to them that they cannot run up to strange dogs (this is a good rule of thumb anyway), and explain WHY they cannot run up to strange dogs. If your child gets away from you to go after the dog anyway, PLEASE be sure to APOLOGIZE to the handler! Also explain to the child that the dog is a "helper/working dog". Do not tell them what kind of work the dog does, because you don't know.
> 
> Not all service dog handlers are blind. Telling the child every time you see a service dog that the handler is blind, or is only a helping trainer teaching the dog to help the blind becomes a perpetual string of misinformation. That child will pass it along to another, and another, and another, and eventually, one of them will likely accuse a handler that ISN'T blind of being a fake.
> 
> 13. Reiterating rule #1!!!! My dog is medical equipment. Please do not talk to my dog. You wouldn't talk to a wheelchair, you shouldn't talk to my dog.
> 
> Talking to my dog also includes extending praise to my dog. You have no right to praise my dog or give my dog commands. Why? Because aside from the fact that he is WORKING, he is MY dog, not YOUR dog.
> 
> I understand that you're trying to be kind, but what you're really being is RUDE! It is also much, much easier for my dog to ignore someone touching them (I will reiterate that you need to not touch my dog either), but it's pretty doggone hard to ignore somebody that's in your face, and there comes a realistic point where I can no longer be mad at the dog for responding to his environment.
> 
> Admire all you want. Ask me questions if you feel comfortable doing so. But do not. Talk. To my dog.


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## Bentwings

My Aussie just got the doctor prescription for service dog yesterday. It's been a long struggle and I still have some training issues to complete but she is doing fine. This opens a new world for both of us to enjoy.


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## Bentwings

As I looked into Emotional Support Dog I find lots of "registries". As noted above in the U.S.A. There is no "official" registry by official law. But there are about a dozen companies advertising "official registry" and charging up to $200 for the service.

Obviously there are different qualifications for Service Dog and Emotional Support Dog. Under the Privacy act, an SD has pretty much full access to public businesses where an ESD does not. An ESD allows housing access and transportation access but not full public access. In other words an ESD is not allowed in restraunts, grocery stores, movies, etc. many people abuse this by using these "registries" as proof of SD. 

I don't take my dog anywhere that dogs are not allowed. Several stores allow dogs so I patronize these. Even so there are often unruly dogs and people in these places so you have to be carefull. A bad encounter can upset months of training. We have been training for a year and a half and eventually Sam will qualify as SD for me.

If you are going to embark on this trail, here is a site that talks about this.

http://servicedogcentral.org/content/


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## Remaru

I would also recommend this site http://www.iaadp.org/ 

There are also some very helpful facebook groups. Owner Training is hard. It is a long road and sometimes you have to make decisions you don't want to make. All of those websites that claim to offer registration for Service Dogs or ESAs are scams, even when they call themselves "official". I do not know what you mean by "privacy act" as there is no privacy act that gives a SD full access. The ADA grants you, the disabled handler, rights which allow you to bring your task trained SD into public businesses.


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## Xeph

Owner training is extremely hard. My last three dogs washed out.


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## Canyx

Out of curiosity... Why is owner training so much harder than the alternative, which I imagine to be getting a SD from a SD training facility.
Also, if I haven't said it before I will say it now: This thread is so informative and beneficial for the community!


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## Remaru

Canyx said:


> Out of curiosity... Why is owner training so much harder than the alternative, which I imagine to be getting a SD from a SD training facility.
> Also, if I haven't said it before I will say it now: This thread is so informative and beneficial for the community!


There are many reasons. Very few dogs have what it takes to be a service dog. When you get a dog from an organization/program the program takes all of the risk, assuming you are using a legitimate program there is little to no risk on the part of the disabled handler. You may have to fund raise and you will need to go through several meetings and training sessions with your matched dog but, though you may need to wait, at the end you should have a dog that is fully trained and ready to work. When you owner train the risk is all on you. You take a puppy, or adult rescue dog, and you start training. A dog can wash for any number of reasons. Even a puppy from an excellent breeding that evaluates perfectly may show temperament flaws later during training and have to wash. Or a dog may do wonderfully with training and just not enjoy working. Some dogs love to work but find working in public stressful. Then there are dogs that are perfect, and don't pass health clearances. 

There is also just the nature of the fact that service dog handlers are disabled and as such we are limited. It is harder to train a dog when you are already limited. I have weeks where I have a hard time getting out of the house. Managing the puppy stage of a high drive dog when I can't exercise that dog is difficult. 

I washed Hobgoblin because I was allergic to him. Totally random and freak thing. I finally came to the conclusion that I will have to wash Lad because he is not large enough to do mobility work. It isn't something people talk about a lot.


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## Bentwings

Remaru, thanks for the site. I've spent several hours reading through it and the branches. It's really eye opening and very informative.


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## TGKvr

I wonder if they'll ever implement legislation on things like national registries, proof of certification, that sort of thing.


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## CptJack

Remaru said:


> There are many reasons. Very few dogs have what it takes to be a service dog. When you get a dog from an organization/program the program takes all of the risk, assuming you are using a legitimate program there is little to no risk on the part of the disabled handler. You may have to fund raise and you will need to go through several meetings and training sessions with your matched dog but, though you may need to wait, at the end you should have a dog that is fully trained and ready to work. When you owner train the risk is all on you. You take a puppy, or adult rescue dog, and you start training. A dog can wash for any number of reasons. Even a puppy from an excellent breeding that evaluates perfectly may show temperament flaws later during training and have to wash. Or a dog may do wonderfully with training and just not enjoy working. Some dogs love to work but find working in public stressful. Then there are dogs that are perfect, and don't pass health clearances.
> 
> There is also just the nature of the fact that service dog handlers are disabled and as such we are limited. It is harder to train a dog when you are already limited. I have weeks where I have a hard time getting out of the house. Managing the puppy stage of a high drive dog when I can't exercise that dog is difficult.
> 
> I washed Hobgoblin because I was allergic to him. Totally random and freak thing. I finally came to the conclusion that I will have to wash Lad because he is not large enough to do mobility work. It isn't something people talk about a lot.


I don't want to overstep here, but I've been curious for a while:

Why do you need a huge dog for mobility work? I 've known several 50-60lb dogs (labs and GSDs, and not huge ones) who work as mobility assistance dogs. I'm sure you have a reason but I'm drawing a blank.

ETA: Actually, I thought about this and don't answer it. It's clearly personal. I'm leaving it along in case someone else isn't aware that the dog doesn't need to be a giant breed to be an effective mobility dog, but that question was over the line and requires disclosure of things I wouldn't actually dream of asking you to disclose. You know you and your dog and your needs.


----------



## Remaru

CptJack said:


> I don't want to overstep here, but I've been curious for a while:
> 
> Why do you need a huge dog for mobility work? I 've known several 50-60lb dogs (labs and GSDs, and not huge ones) who work as mobility assistance dogs. I'm sure you have a reason but I'm drawing a blank.


Dogs are not built to carry weight the same way horses are, it is hard on their joints. It is very similar to discussions on how much weight a dog should carry in a backpack. It is a debated subject however there is a general consensus that for mobility work a dog should be 40% of the handler's height and 40-50% of the handlers weight depending on the type of work and how often you will need support. I only need moderate support but I need my dog almost every day and when I need help it is all day. I put more stress on a dog than a person who needs just a little help getting up and down out of a chair or steadying from dizzy spells. Some people fall on the more cautious side and feel mobility dogs should be at least 60% of their handlers weight, others fall to the less and feel as long as the dog is healthy and "built sturdy" (ie bull breeds, labs, rottweilers) size doesn't matter. I guess I'm slightly more cautious, I am uncomfortable working a dog that is less than 50% of my weight because I know I will be putting more stress on my dog. Even with a commitment to losing weight there is only so small I can get.


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## Remaru

Bentwings said:


> Remaru, thanks for the site. I've spent several hours reading through it and the branches. It's really eye opening and very informative.


I'm glad you found it helpful. 



TGKvr said:


> I wonder if they'll ever implement legislation on things like national registries, proof of certification, that sort of thing.


As an owner trainer I am not in favor of a national certification process. Though I would love to see something done about the scam sites.


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## TGKvr

Remaru said:


> As an owner trainer I am not in favor of a national certification process. Though I would love to see something done about the scam sites.


Why is this? What are the downsides? Honestly curious here... it seems as if it would offer greater protection/enhance legitimacy? Granted I've never had need of a service dog, but one of the things that drives me insane is the person that claims their dog is a service dog in order to gain access to places they wouldn't otherwise have - knowing they can't be asked for proof. IMO, that's offensive to those that actually DO have legit service dogs and undermines the training that goes into the whole program. ??


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## Remaru

TGKvr said:


> Why is this? What are the downsides? Honestly curious here... it seems as if it would offer greater protection/enhance legitimacy? Granted I've never had need of a service dog, but one of the things that drives me insane is the person that claims their dog is a service dog in order to gain access to places they wouldn't otherwise have - knowing they can't be asked for proof. IMO, that's offensive to those that actually DO have legit service dogs and undermines the training that goes into the whole program. ??


That is a business education problem. If businesses were properly educated this would not be as big of an issue. They can absolutely ask you "is that a service dog required for a disability?" and you do have to answer. They can also ask "what task does the dog perform for you?" and you have to answer. Now if the person can answer those questions they can take their dog in. If the dog is being disruptive the business can still ask them to remove their dog. The dog may be a legitimate service dog and just having an off day, or it may be poorly trained (poorly trained dogs come from programs, they come from owner training, these things just happen). They just have to let you know that you are welcome to return without your dog because your dog was causing a disruption (barking, sniffing merchandise, urinating in the store, ect). 

The issue with a national registry is that some one has to run it. Who does that? Do they charge for it? Many disabled people are on limited income. How do they decide if your dog is properly trained? Do they send some one to you or do you have to come to them? Disabled individuals are spread far and wide, and many are limited in their ability to travel (I do not drive but am very lucky in that my husband does). As a disabled individual I already struggle, my life is limited (that is what it means to be disabled, I would not qualify for a service dog if not). The concept of a national registry seems simple, but it I fear that it taxes disability. The simple answer is to educate about service dogs, what they are, the differences between therapy animals, ESAs and service dogs. To educate businesses about their rights and to shut down scam sites. I get really tired of those pop up sites claiming to register your dog for $75.


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## Canyx

Great responses to everything, Remaru. And absolutely right. It shouldn't have to be one more thing for people with disabilities to worry about.


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## TGKvr

Thanks for the explanation, Remaru... that makes a lot of sense. Though I'm not sure that someone still couldn't take advantage by just having answers to those questions, you know? But I suppose you'll have people in all sorts of situations trying to take advantage when they can, not just within the SD realm.

So I have another question... If there is no national registry, and therefore no proof of verification of SD status, then how does one "qualify" for a Service Dog? What sort of process does that entail, and who is performing the qualification?

Thanks for your patience, I find this topic very interesting but I know so little about it.


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## Xeph

Nobody performs any sort of qualification. You just kinda roll with it, is the best way I can describe it. When you have a team of doctors, it becomes pretty apparent what you are and are not. You're disabled if you say you're disabled until proven otherwise, really. The disabled community is not small, but the SD community is. There's a lot of internal policing that occurs.

I have a disability that is sometimes invisible. I can look completely normal one day, and within a few minutes devolve into a useless pile of skin and bone


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## Remaru

TGKvr said:


> Thanks for the explanation, Remaru... that makes a lot of sense. Though I'm not sure that someone still couldn't take advantage by just having answers to those questions, you know? But I suppose you'll have people in all sorts of situations trying to take advantage when they can, not just within the SD realm.
> 
> So I have another question... If there is no national registry, and therefore no proof of verification of SD status, then how does one "qualify" for a Service Dog? What sort of process does that entail, and who is performing the qualification?
> 
> Thanks for your patience, I find this topic very interesting but I know so little about it.


People still can fake. The question you have to ask is, why would that matter? The reason "faking a Service Dog" matters is because it A) endangers my dog, B) makes it harder for my dog to work, C) puts service dogs in a poor light, which means the next time I try to go out with my dog I am going to get harassed because "the last dog that was in here pooped on the floor" or whatever. If some one is going through the effort of training their dog to SD standards and learning all of the laws just so they can pass it as an SD, I don't really care. That is a lot of work to go through just so you can take your pet dog out in public with you. You will find very few people will go through that kind of work, most fall into the "I want to buy a vest and register my dog with a fake registry" category. Which is why educating businesses works. 

No one certifies that I have a disability. That is between me and my doctor. There is also a difference between being medically disabled and legally disabled. If I wanted a service dog from a program I would need a letter from my doctor, I don't need that to own a service dog. Imagine you needing a letter from your doctor to walk down the street, drive a car, get married, ect. If I did not own my own home I would probably need a letter for rental, and I might need one to fly with my dog PSDs require doctor's letters to fly (my dog isn't actually for a psychiatric disability but I have one of those as well, I'm pretty open about my disabilities but that is not a requirement either). If I were to have an access challenge that progressed to a court situation I would need documentation to back up the fact that I am actually disabled as well as the time dedicated to training my dog (another reason business education is important, those people flashing IDs and screaming about lawsuits would actually lose in court but businesses have no idea of their rights). The ADA covers the rights of disabled individuals and also defines disability. 

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
http://www.ada.gov/nprm_adaaa/nprm_adaaa.htm


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## Bentwings

Since I'm technically new to the SD, ESD issue, I think a national or federally run registry would drive up the cost od SD especially. You would either have to pass some tests or have a professionally trained dog. As it is if you can obedience train your dog then train it to do what ever you need it to do and the dog can behave in public and you have a legitimate disability or medical need you are in...or OK. I see nothing wrong with that. 

I agree it is an education thing as far as the work place. Not many know what to do if you come in with a SD. Dealing with the disabled should be accompanied with dealing with the SD, no different than dealing with a wheelchair, walker, or powered cart.


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## Effisia

Biggest problem I have with some kind of national registry is that you then basically have to prove you're disabled "enough" to have a SD. According to whomever gets to make the rules. Which, unless they're your doctor, is an invasion of privacy.

Also, you have to think that for a lot of anxiety-type issues having to go get your dog tested (or even having someone come to you) could be _hugely_ detrimental.


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## Bentwings

I agree. Leave the law the way it is.


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## TGKvr

All good points... I get it.


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## Xeph

Those of us with owner SDs can get especially rabid about the idea of a national registry type thing. I owner train for several reasons.

Many organizations will not allow you an SD if you have other animals. Especially intact animals. They may make exceptions for things like birds or cats, but are adamant about no other dogs. I will not allow somebody else to further limit me and the things I have in my life. Many orgs only work with certain types of breeds, most of them being Labs, Goldens, Poodles, and mixes thereof. I dislike all of those breeds. I don't connect with them, they garner too much attention from the public, I just don't want one of those breeds. Many orgs require that your former partner be returned to be placed when it retires before you can have a new partner. Big giant NO! I'm not giving up the partner that has served me for 8-10 years. Are you INSANE!? Cost is another issue. I am not comfortable trying to engage in fundraising, especially if I end up not liking the dog.

Things are different when you're not a dog person that is entrenched in several facets of the dog world. Being "just" a disabled person is entirely different from knowing the kind of animal and breed that you like, and things become more difficult still when you are involved in dog sports and actually have knowledge that the majority of SD users do not.


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## Bentwings

Xeph, you make excellent points. No way is any group getting my dog when I can no longer take care of her or she retires. I've already made provision for her with funding. 

While I like most dogs, there are some I'd prefer not to own. I'll not have a dog rammed down my throat just because it is a trained SD. I'll select my partner and train as required. I too have been involved with serious dog sports and working dogs.

You have to question training methods when a person needs assistance and a SD can provide this. I've brought this up at a couple not related discussion groups. Many people are not "dog people" and have no idea of the needs of a dog let alone the bond needed. "It's just a dog" like some kind of tool. There is no love returned to the dog. Maybe the dog doesn't need this, he just remembers the no nonsense training and works out of "fear" for lack of better wording. He gets food and shelter and a place to rest. When commanded he does his job....like a slave or "tool".


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## Remaru

Bentwings said:


> Xeph, you make excellent points. No way is any group getting my dog when I can no longer take care of her or she retires. I've already made provision for her with funding.
> 
> While I like most dogs, there are some I'd prefer not to own. I'll not have a dog rammed down my throat just because it is a trained SD. I'll select my partner and train as required. I too have been involved with serious dog sports and working dogs.
> 
> You have to question training methods when a person needs assistance and a SD can provide this. I've brought this up at a couple not related discussion groups. Many people are not "dog people" and have no idea of the needs of a dog let alone the bond needed. "It's just a dog" like some kind of tool. There is no love returned to the dog. Maybe the dog doesn't need this, he just remembers the no nonsense training and works out of "fear" for lack of better wording. He gets food and shelter and a place to rest. When commanded he does his job....like a slave or "tool".


This really isn't exactly how it works. I am sure it is in some cases but I would say those cases are pretty rare. There are bad programs out there for sure, they tend to fall into the category of turning out poorly trained dogs quickly because there is such a high demand vs turning out dogs that "perform out of fear". As for people who don't know about dogs but want a service dog, that is pretty rare. It takes a lot to live with a service dog. Service dogs are expensive, not just the initial cost of procuring a dog from a program (which can cost easily $15,000 or more) but the cost of then caring for that dog for a lifetime, there are far more durable, easier, less stressful and cheaper accommodations you could find to help manage your disability if you are not a dog person. While many people may not know how to train their own service dog, that does not mean they do not love dogs. A wheelchair will not have an accident in a store, anti-anxiety drugs do not encourage people to point and stare at you wherever you go, therapy does not cause you to have access challenges in restaurants. Choosing to go down the Service Dog path is not a choice to make lightly. Many people wash their dogs not because the dog did anything wrong but because life with a service dog makes the handler's anxiety worse. 

I am a little concerned that you seem to think you can choose any dog and just train it to be a service dog. Very few dogs have what it takes to be a service dog. There is a chance that your dog will wash out. Many owner trained dogs do and many more should be washed out but are not because handlers are blind to their partner's faults.


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## Bentwings

You continue to make good points.

I'm well aware that not just any dog is going to be a successful SD no matter how good of a trainer you are. Just as in competitive dog sports and working dogs many dogs simply can't do the job. It's disappointing after a year or more of intense training to stop and say " Rover just isn't going to make it". Not everyone is cutout to be a doctor or engineer either. But it doesn't mean they need to be put to sleep either. There are many other things dogs can do that please both owner and dog.

My current dog is not cutout to be a SD at all. She is a great support dog as I live alone. I can talk to her and she will listen just like she knows exactly what I'm talking about. She will sit next to me in the truck (with sear belt security) watches intently for deer or other animals near the road, since I don't hear well she alerts at knocks on the door, and sits with me at work, as well as a number of other at home jobs she has to keep her busy.


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## Remaru

Bentwings said:


> You continue to make good points.
> 
> I'm well aware that not just any dog is going to be a successful SD no matter how good of a trainer you are. Just as in competitive dog sports and working dogs many dogs simply can't do the job. It's disappointing after a year or more of intense training to stop and say " Rover just isn't going to make it". Not everyone is cutout to be a doctor or engineer either. But it doesn't mean they need to be put to sleep either. There are many other things dogs can do that please both owner and dog.
> 
> My current dog is not cutout to be a SD at all. She is a great support dog as I live alone. I can talk to her and she will listen just like she knows exactly what I'm talking about. She will sit next to me in the truck (with sear belt security) watches intently for deer or other animals near the road, since I don't hear well she alerts at knocks on the door, and sits with me at work, as well as a number of other at home jobs she has to keep her busy.


Dogs that washout are not put to sleep. When a dog is "career changed" from a program they are typically put up for adoption. Sometimes they are adopted by their puppy raiser, we have a poster here who adopted one of the dogs she was puppy raising when he didn't finish his training. Most programs have long lists of people waiting to adopt their dogs should they "career change". I have known some owner trainers who adopted guide dog puppies that washed and finished them for other disabilities but it really depends on why they washed. Typically they wind up as pets. I recently fostered for my friend's program, the puppy was not suited for service work so he was career changed. I held him until a suitable home could be found. I worked with him every day. He enjoyed playing with my dogs and hanging out on my couch. He is now happily in a loving home with people who understand his special needs. Owner trained dogs that wash either stay with their owners or are rehomed. My first SDiT I placed with a small local program, I was allergic to him or I wouldn't have given him up at all. He finished his training and is with a handler. 

I am confused, you posted this 



> My Aussie just got the doctor prescription for service dog yesterday. It's been a long struggle and I still have some training issues to complete but she is doing fine. This opens a new world for both of us to enjoy.


But now you say your dog is not cutout to be a SD. Are you pursuing making your dog a SD or not?


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## Bentwings

It's my choice. Recognizing conditions not suitable to SD even though I qualify is one of the things owner/trainer needs to be aware. I don't intend to bring any problems to the SD community. A lifetime of engineering has taught me to look at things as they really are, not necessarily as I want. Sometimes things can be fixed, sometimes the fix creates other problems, and sometimes you admit defeat and start over. It's not easy to accept when your friend simply can't be fitted to the program. Within the analysis I have to look at whether I have the talent to train for this program. I may not, can I admit this? Can I learn? Good questions that I'm working on. Certainly extreme measures can be used but I want my partner to be with me because she wants to, not because she is compelled.


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## Canyx

What is the difference between Emotional Support Animals and Companion Animals? It seems in both categories the animal provides emotional support for people and those people are allowed to rent from housing that typically don't allow animals. 

Also, I have a situation on my hands. I will try to be discreet. I have a client who suffers from some emotional and possibly mental limitations. I have been told that, in a nutshell, this person's animal is what keeps him/her going. This client is looking to have his/her dog, currently a very young puppy, be a service animal that he/she can take anywhere. He/she does not have any physical limitations that require a true Service Dog, but the client already has the puppy as a companion animal and lives in dorm rooms. I am worried that ESAs won't grant his/her dog the universal public access that the client is seeking. I gently mentioned resources for human help as well, though it was only a passing statement since I am a dog trainer and not a counselor, and my client is very focused on this route for his/her dog. I don't take these things lightly and I hope I can help my client out to the best of my abilities. Training is already harder than normal due to some mental differences between us, but this person has a large heart. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


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## Remaru

To qualify for an ESA you must be legally disabled, your treating doctor must write your a letter stating that you require your animal. Some people skirt this by "registering" their animal but those registries are scams. Sometimes companion animal is used interchangeably with ESA but as far as I know in the US a companion animal is just a pet. 

You do not have to have a physical disability to qualify for a service dog. You do have to be disabled as defined by the ADA, however that is true to qualify for an ESA as well. If your client is disabled the next question would be, does this dog have the correct temperament for SD work? Then, what can your client not do for him/herself that a dog can be trained to do? A service dog is not just a well trained pet, a service dog is medical equipment. Providing comfort is what an ESA does, but an ESA does not have public access. So there would need to be specific things that your client cannot do for themself that a dog could do. This can be things like responding to panic attacks and guiding out of public places/to a safe place, medication reminders (this is only a task if the handler cannot remember medication on their own), waking from night terrors, ect.


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## Canyx

Thanks for your thoughts Remaru. My client has not explicitly listed any physical disabilities to me. I believe he/she has depression and possibly some mental disorder based on his/her mannerisms, but that is not for me to say and my client can certainly function normally in every day life. I guess I am wondering if there are service dogs trained to assist with more subtle mental problems. 

ETA: I've actually talked to my supervisor and revisited the first post in this thread (thanks Xeph!). We will proceed by sending my client the information on the ADA website http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
And then asking my client what tasks he/she would benefit from the dog knowing. I sincerely hope we can help him/her. Thanks again for this thread and all its contributors! It is vital information and so succinctly worded.


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## Remaru

Canyx said:


> Thanks for your thoughts Remaru. My client has not explicitly listed any physical disabilities to me. I believe he/she has depression and possibly some mental disorder based on his/her mannerisms, but that is not for me to say and my client can certainly function normally in every day life. I guess I am wondering if there are service dogs trained to assist with more subtle mental problems. I will be blunt here... Something like, "Having my dog with me prevents me from wanting to kill myself."


You have to be disabled to have a service dog, depression can be disabling but I do not know if it is for your client. That is between your client and his/her doctor. If you were going to proceed with training this dog as a service dog you might consider requesting a letter from your client's treating physician or therapist stating that your client is in fact disabled (whether by depression or whatever) and that a service dog would benefit your client. The dog does have to be trained in a task or "work" to mitigate your disability, "preventing me from wanting to kill myself" would be providing comfort. That is what an ESA does and honestly that is too much to put on a dog. 

"Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually 
trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities."

"The work or task a dog has been trained 
to provide must be directly related to the person’s disability. 
Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional 
support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."


http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.pdf this is the ADA document on service dogs. 
https://adata.org/faq/what-definition-disability-under-ada
Definition of disability


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## Remaru

Well I have a post pending in moderation but I essentially linked the ADA and suggested if you move forward that you have the client speak with the doctor and get a letter prescribing a service dog. I am glad that you and your supervisor have found a possible solution.


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## TGKvr

So I have a question... if service dogs aren't regulated, or registered, then how does one qualify in the first place? I asked similar question earlier and the answer I got seems to indicate that no one actually performs the qualification and A) it's too complicated and B) it's a privacy violation. Soo... I'm just confused. Because the above statement indicates you CAN qualify for one, and there are rules as to what does and doesn't apply... And that your doctor must write a letter stating you require one - but where does the letter go? Who sees it if there is no regulatory authority? It seems a contradiction. Or have I just not had enough coffee yet this morning?

**ETA: I guess part of what I'm wondering is, who enforces these "rules"? (I read the ADA link)


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## Bentwings

Good questions.

Here is a link I found that answers a lot of questions. Go the FAQ page.

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html


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## Remaru

I know it seems very complicated, it is. The reality is, you qualify by being disabled but there is not a governing body out there handing out IDs or checking papers saying "oh yeah, you are disabled and qualify for a Service Dog." 

Let us say that you as an able bodied individual decided that you wanted to take your pet dog out and pretend that she was a service dog. So you buy a vest and walk your dog into a store. Probably at the first store no one stops you. Ok, so you are getting away with this, because the reality of the situation is that, there is no registration for service dogs and there is no one who is going to check any IDs or papers to make sure you are disabled and your dog is actually a service dog. Again, can you imagine some one asking to see proof that you were disabled before you could walk into a store with a cane? How about proof of your identity just to walk down the street? 

Ok now you are at a second store and some one stops you and asks "is that a service dog?" You have two choices, you can lie and say "yes" or you can admit the truth that your dog is a pet. You lie, maybe you even make something up for the second question, "my dog makes me feel good". The manager is called over because the employee doesn't believe you, maybe they know that "making you feel good" isn't a service dog task. You act outraged, threaten a lawsuit, but the manager tells you that you are welcome to return without your dog. You again have two options, push your luck, or leave. This is where you, as an able bodied individual with a pet dog have run into trouble. A person with a legitimate disability and a legitimately trained service dog would politely attempt to educate the manager. Perhaps we would offer a card with the ADA information on it or even call the police to help. If I am forced to leave a public place (a restaurant, store, hospital, doctor's office or hotel) with my trained service dog I can call the DOJ and file a complaint, I can even file a lawsuit. My disability is well documented, I have many doctors on my side and proof of the time I spent training my dog. As an able bodied individual you have no proof of a disability and your pet dog is not trained to perform any task to mitigate your non-existent disability. The law is not on your side and you have no case to pursue in court. The ADA does not protect you, the DOJ will not help you and you cannot file a lawsuit. This is why I talk about qualifying for a service dog. No, there is no one out there who is going to "certify you" or check your papers, because there aren't any. However to have the protections of the law you must be disabled and your dog must be properly trained. Once again the best way to stop fakers is to educate businesses of their rights as well. 

You do not have to have a letter from your doctor. If you live in no pet housing it is required. If you want to fly it is required. Most organizations that train service dogs require a letter to prove that you are actually disabled and that a service dog would help you (as opposed to some other option). Some people hear about service dogs and think "wow it would be great to take my dog everywhere" and start trying to figure out how to make that happen. Trainers often require a letter or prescription to prevent that from happening. It is also to help prevent a service dog from being the only means of treatment, which is not fair to the dog. A dog should be one part of a treatment plan. However, a letter is not required as per ADA.


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## TGKvr

Thanks for the additional clarification, Remaru! I'm just more interested in the logistics (vs. trying to argue) because it seems a little contradictory at times, so your posts really help. FWIW I think people that abuse the whole SD thing in general are despicable... like the ones that needlessly park in the handicapped spot. Really burns my rubber! I just can't imagine lying about something like that, it's so disrespectful to those that truly need the service of SDs and ESAs.


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## Remaru

TGKvr said:


> Thanks for the additional clarification, Remaru! I'm just more interested in the logistics (vs. trying to argue) because it seems a little contradictory at times, so your posts really help. FWIW I think people that abuse the whole SD thing in general are despicable... like the ones that needlessly park in the handicapped spot. Really burns my rubber! I just can't imagine lying about something like that, it's so disrespectful to those that truly need the service of SDs and ESAs.



It is hard to understand how it works in practice unless you've talked to people who have been living it. I think that is why so many fakers think they can get away with it, because it is complicated to understand but sounds like you just have to claim your dog is a service dog and no one can say that it isn't. The whole thing with registries is complicated too. There is just no good way to implement a system without hurting the people who actually need service dogs. I worry with so many people faking and causing problems laws will be made anyway. I kind of understand why people lie to try to get their dogs in, they think it is harmless or more often they just don't really think at all. Everyone always thinks, "well my dog is well behaved," or "my dog would never act up in a store." Or they don't really understand how their actions affect other people. I would love to be "normal" and to not spend half of my time with doctors. As much as I love dogs (and I do) dragging one with my every single place I go is not exactly what I want. I do wish people understood that when you are disabled you don't get to choose. You can't just slap a vest on your dog and take them to the mall or a cafe one day and get to go out and be carefree and normal the next. It is like this everyday, service dog, service human, and other supports but I don't get to choose not to be disabled.


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## TGKvr

Thanks to this thread, I was able to have an educated discussion with someone about Service Dogs and cleared some misconceptions they had. Thanks folks!


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## Cierra

I know that it is not mandatory/required, but do most people register their service dog with the US Service Dog Registry? Are there any additional benefits to it? Just wondering because this is something that is automatically included with the service dog program I am going with.


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## Remaru

Cierra said:


> I know that it is not mandatory/required, but do most people register their service dog with the US Service Dog Registry? Are there any additional benefits to it? Just wondering because this is something that is automatically included with the service dog program I am going with.


No, most people do not register their service dogs with the USSDR, it is a scam registry just like all of the others. There are 0 additional benefits except the ID card, you do not need an ID card and using one only makes life harder for legitimate SD teams. I could register my cat with the USSDR right now, it would not make her a Service Dog nor make it legal to take her out in public like one. 

Honestly I would be extremely skeptical of any program that registered all of their dogs through the USSDR as it is a scam and unnecessary. There are many fly by night and scam programs out there that take people's money promising fully trained service dogs in 3, 6, 9, or 12months when it takes at least 18months to train a dog for service work. At best these programs may offer a trained pet, at worst you get a dog with zero training or they neglect and abuse your dog. I have seen some really badly "trained" program dogs and dogs that were left in cages and abused by "program trainers". There are good programs out there and many do certify their dogs but it is a certification the program provides to say the dog was trained by the program and passed the programs testing, not typically anything through one of these websites. That is a huge red flag.


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## erickclifford

Thank you all for sharing! everytime I take a look at your stories I learn a lot.


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## Canyx

I just want to reiterate what's been said and thank everyone for all of the information here. As a trainer I have also been better equipped to answer service dog questions in an educated way thanks to this discussion and the resources it led me to. You'd be surprised (or not) at how many people 'want' their dogs to be service dogs...


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## Bentwings

I'm glad I picked up on this thread earlier. I had suspected a scam with the " registries" . I work hard to train my dog for " street smarts" similar to my streetrodding cars...i.e. designed and built to handle anything on the street and not racing of exhibisionistic stuff. Hate it.

My Aussie is a true high end active very exuberant dog, far above what " normal" Aussies and Border Collies are. She probably could do very well in agility but I no longer compete in sports. I have worked with this level dogs a lot and really enjoy it. It's also a real comfort to me mentally and physically. I spoke at length with my doctor and he gave me a perscription for "emotional support dog". Not a true service dog and that's fine. This dog is about opposite of what service dogs need to be....least wise I think so.

So, for street dog she needs stability yet awareness of the surroundings. Since I barely hear she alerts to things I might not notice, cars but not fearful just " hey, look, a car" other dogs..." watch my tail master" , runner or bike coming up from behind " watch my nose master, high speed bike coming from behind on the left or ( right) , someone is at the door and I don't like him/ her.

She works so hard in classes that she is exhausted for hours. I usually am too as it is so mentally stimulating.

We have a bunch of truely unruly Dogs in our apt building. So we have to work to either avoid or deal with them. Since I added "support dog" to her harness most people give way and keep there dogs close. It's not " fake" as I have a real doctors note and showed it to the apt manager who promptly gave us a break on dog fees, no questions asked. This helps as we can heel past them either on the left or right and lately Sam is learing "follow me". (One word). 

I don't say anything about the rent thing as these people would jump on the fake stuff. They are going to have to go through at least some of the issues I have......and good luck getting Doctor approval. The doctors are well aware of service dogs and ESD.

Anyway I hope I'm not being offensive, I just love training, it settles me and my dog loves it. 

I use positive training and distraction when things get rough.

Just a last note, Sam's recall is explosive, she actually slides on the rubber mat at traning and throws dirt stopping in the field. There is no holding her head away submissively or cringing from force training. She is a happy dog....currently resting her head in my lap.


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## Remaru

I'm not sure I'm following your post entirely. Are you talking about ESA's or SDs here? You do need a doctor's note for an ESA if you rent or want to fly with your dog (or other ESA) however there is no need to label your dog's harness with "support dog" as you cannot take you do not have access rights with your ESA. Those ESA patches are almost exclusively produced by scam registry sites or people wanting to make money off of people who don't know better. 

It is wonderful that your dog is well trained and that you are getting so much out of training with your dogs. I have always loved training and working with dogs. It has been more difficult for me as my health deteriorates, I cannot do the things I used to do. Not sure why you bring up training styles or what you are trying to imply?

Unfortunately very few doctors are actually versed in service dogs, what they can and can't do, why you would need one, and what the differences are between SDs and ESAs.


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## Bentwings

To answer your questions, my dog is an ESA under the rules. My doctor is well aware of the rules of these and service dogs.
The rent break is the secondary reason I have this. She really does provide emotional support. That's what I'm trying to convey. In view of the disturbing mass murders recently I didn't think it was a good idea to indicate " emotional support". I'm enough of an oddity at the apartment as it is. I believe in old time values and don't fit in with this group at the apartment. I probably will not fly with my dog. I hate commercial flying today.
The reason I label the harness is to keep these unruly people and their dogs away from us. I know it's pushing the rules a bit and I don't take her in businesses as though she is a SD nor indicate this at all. I have very high respect for SD and those who have them. The only places she gets to go in are dog friendly stores...feed store, shop where I work, and a few auto parts stores that are dog friendly. I'm careful not to present as a SD in any way. Ironically the bank where I go invited and encourages me to bring her in. Something that surprised me. I even explained to the mgr. that she is not a SD. He said that was fine, they just like her because she is friendly and well mannered. Believe me I'm very careful when I bring her in the bank as there are at least two SD people who bank there also. If they are present we stay out.

Training. I think I'm going to back out of this. I probably should not have said anything. I just enjoy it so much I get carried away.


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## sandgrubber

Does this forum have any control over who advertises? An ad with the following text comes up on the bottom of the page on my screen:
"*US Service Dog Registry
Emotional Support & Service Dog ID. No-Hassle. ID Certificate Vest Kit Go to usserviceanimals.org/Service-Dog*"

Seems to me this is a scam, and an invitation to people who want to pass emotional support animals as service dogs.


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## Xeph

It is a scam. Don't think the board has much control.


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## Bentwings

I just got away from a discussion on service dogs with one of my sons. He is not a dog owner or dog person.
The question: suppose you have ligitmate service dog. Maybe you are epileptic. You go to a small retail store and the owner confronts you saying" you cannot bring your dog in here. " you respond that the dog is a specially trained service dog. So the store owner emphatically tells you to leave or he will call the cops. You politely tell him "please do call them". Then two cop cars pull up and the officers review the matter. It turns out neither are familiar with service dogs and where they can and can't go. The discussion goes back and forth with the cops finally telling you " we don't know the rules so let's just be nice and leave this store alone". Fuming you leave.

What can you do?
Can the store owner really tell you not to bring the dog in?


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## Remaru

Bentwings said:


> I just got away from a discussion on service dogs with one of my sons. He is not a dog owner or dog person.
> The question: suppose you have ligitmate service dog. Maybe you are epileptic. You go to a small retail store and the owner confronts you saying" you cannot bring your dog in here. " you respond that the dog is a specially trained service dog. So the store owner emphatically tells you to leave or he will call the cops. You politely tell him "please do call them". Then two cop cars pull up and the officers review the matter. It turns out neither are familiar with service dogs and where they can and can't go. The discussion goes back and forth with the cops finally telling you " we don't know the rules so let's just be nice and leave this store alone". Fuming you leave.
> 
> What can you do?
> Can the store owner really tell you not to bring the dog in?


You have a couple of options. You can present the officers with information if you have it with you (there are also phone apps) if they seem open to it. You can take the officers names, badge numbers and information so you can speak to their supervisors, very politely. Approach it as an education thing, don't go in angry or trying to get anyone in trouble. Make sure you have all of your information in order before you go. As far as the business, as long as they are open to the public a service dog handler does have the right to be there. There are some caveats to that, the business owner is allowed to ask two questions, and if the dog is not behaving you can be asked to remove your dog, there are also parts of the zoo you can't take your dog into ect. However if you have a problem you take it up with the DOJ, there isn't really anything the police can do other than inform the business that you have a right to be there.


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## LennyandRogue

My dog's not doing public access yet but to add some perspective, I've been 'politely escorted' out of stores for having asthma attacks in public. I generally don't go out by myself because I have other episodes where people will frequently call the police on me unless someone else is there to diffuse - people don't listen to me if I start using a speech aid, that's usually when they start threatening me. And I don't trust that when the police come they're going to in any way assist me. 

It's not OK but being kicked out of places for no good reason is sometimes part of having a disability and adding a dog to the equation doesn't really change that. In my case it will probably have the same effect as refusing to leave my house without a non-disabled third party who can do a block and cover for me. It doesn't stop people from being terrible. Sometimes even if my mom is standing by explaining my entire medical history to a stranger they'll nod and agree and call the police anyway. 

Probably the people who will call the police for bringing the dog are the same people who will call the police because I had the audacity to have a seizure or asthma attack or meltdown in public.


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## ireth0

People... call the police because you're having an asthma attack? And not in an effort to assist you?


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## TGKvr

Yeah to be honest that really blows my mind a little. I can't imagine seeing someone suffering from a seizure or an attack of any sort and NOT wanting to help... it just... does not compute.


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## LennyandRogue

People don't call the police on me for having an asthma attack but like I said, I have multiple disabilities so I have more than one type of attack. I have been kicked out of the movies, a grocery store, and many many classes for having an asthma attack. I've also been "politely" asked not to use my inhaler on a bus (not by the driver). But anyway it depends on whether or not people think I'm doing something weird because I'm disabled/sick or because I'm obstinate and just enjoy collapsing in the frozen foods section I guess. 

Also even when people are genuinely trying to help it's really just a major inconvenience when people call 911 because I had my 5th asthma attack this week or whatever. If you just let me sit on the floor while I wait for my inhaler to kick in I'll be fine in 10 minutes but if you call 911 I have to spend 30-60 minutes explaining my medical condition and I would rather just be going on with my day. The people who call for help even after you tell them not to are the worst because they get vindictive about it.

People suck, that's why I only hang out with dogs.


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## Bentwings

L & T,
Please don't be too hard on people, they really are trying to just do something for you. I mean how would you feel if you are sitting on the floor against the vegetable bins and somebody came by and tossed a ten dollar bill in your lap and said " here, buy another inhaler but move over so I can make my selections"? 

I know some can get owly and be a PIA but you can disregard them. If a store mgr is so dumb as to kick you out I guess I'd just let them know they just lost a good customer and maybe more. If I were the mgr. I would do everything I could to make you more comfortable. It's hard not to call 911 in a medical situation because of legalities.

Two years ago I was playing senior baseball and got hit on the cheek by a pitched ball twice in about a month. Broke my helmets both times and cost five teeth. Both times the games were stopped and 911 came. Players from both teams sat with me until the situation stabilized. It cost both teams another $100 each for overtime at the field. I offered to,pay this but they refused..they wouldn't even take my share. So not everyone is vindictive.

Yeah, I live with my dog too, she is resting on my feet.


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## LennyandRogue

Bentwings, the problem is not that people try to help. If people were just asking if I needed help and then listening to me, it would be fine. But sometimes I get people who basically corner me and then start threatening me because they're "just trying to help." They're vindictive because I'm not being appreciative enough, not because I'm wasting their time or in the way or whatever. If they really wanted to help they would ask first, listen to me when I use my speech app to tell them what I need, and not threaten to call the police if I don't ~use my words~. 

You broke your teeth twice, I have had over 50 episodes in the past six months. I do not have enough time in the day to reassure people every time I have an episode or an asthma attack or whatever. But that's one of the advantages of using a service dog, I guess, is that people feel less obliged to step in when they see the dog reacting calmly. And it's easier to explain an access problem as "I was turned away at the door" than "I was allowed in and then fell and was removed." I always feel like if I complain about the latter I'm just going to be judged because well that's my fault for being stupid enough to leave the house. 

(also I _would_ prefer if people would give me 10 dollars every time I get an asthma attack, how do I make that happen?)


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## TGKvr

If it's such a common occurrence, what about carrying something like a laminated info sheet that you can just show people? "I have a disability - thank you for your patience and kindness while this episode runs its course". Or something... you won't have to use your speech app. Just a thought.


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## LennyandRogue

People who don't listen to my typing also tend not to read those.


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## TGKvr

It would be pretty hard not to read a sign that was shoved in front of my face. But OK... I guess you just do what you can do. I've never seen anything like what you're describing and it's just really hard for me to imagine that there are so many people who would be so disrespectful of someone who is clearly dealing with a medical issue. It makes me wonder where in the world you live if that's the kind of people you encounter on a regular basis.


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## LennyandRogue

TGK, I could write you a disability studies essay or I could give you the short answer which is that I'm either not broadcasting 'medical issues' to people, or people think I'm faking for some reason, or they're psychology undergrads (who are terrible people; I should know, I am one)


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## Xeph

> If it's such a common occurrence, what about carrying something like a laminated info sheet that you can just show people?


I'm a person, not a freakshow. How about people show some common courtesy and mind their business? It's not my job to educate everybody. Do I sometimes? Yes. Always? No. I have things to do. Ihave a life. Use freakin' Google.



> It makes me wonder where in the world you live if that's the kind of people you encounter on a regular basis.


I have a video up on FB of Strauss aiding me on a REALLY bad day. I was in extreme pain, barely mobile, falling on my dog...and people were still trying to stop me to talk, as if what was going on was any of their business. As if I was in a proper state to engage them. As if my dog wasn't in the midst of doing an extremely important job.


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## TGKvr

I didn't mean to offend... I was only thinking of something that would help someone, as a witness, better understand this type of occurrence and avoid making a bad situation worse.


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## Xeph

The best thing a person can do is leave a dog and their handler *alone* unless that person needs immediate aid (like calling 911)


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## ireth0

Xeph said:


> The best thing a person can do is leave a dog and their handler *alone* unless that person needs immediate aid (like calling 911)


I guess as an outsider it's just not always easy to determine if immediate aid is required or not. Like Lenny was talking about not wanting people to call 911 when he had a seizure and honestly that would definitely be my go-to response to happening across someone in that kind of distress.


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## LennyandRogue

I don't really want to go into detail about why I don't like people calling 911 every time my disabilities act up but I have way too many disabilities to go to the hospital every time someone notices one of them. I'd never get anything done.

Anyway I was wondering if anyone knows of any service dog owner-trainer groups in the Chicago area because when I do a search for them all I get is various trainers' websites. I'm looking for something more geared towards owner trainers but a general group is fine too. I'd be shocked if there wasn't something...but I'm not finding anything on google.


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## sonja_sadek

Very informative. Thank you Xeph!


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## CharlesErikz

Thank you very much for this, I will spread this to my friends and love ones and I will ask for the do the same.


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## ellisonjfhan

I thought service dogs, therapy dogs and ESA are same. Thanks for sharing the information.


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## ellisonjfhan

Thanks for sharing such valuable information with us.


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## Alexandra.Martha

Xeph said:


> When you see a service dog:
> 1. Do just that...SEE the service dog. Do not talk to it, do not try to pet it, do not bother the dog. The dog is there to work, not for your amusement.
> 
> 2. If you see someone with a service dog and you MUST say something, acknowledge the HANDLER, not the dog, and please continue to follow rule #1. Do not say "What a beautiful dog!" and then immediately bend over to get in the dog's face, and proceed to tell it how beautiful and helpful it is. First of all, it's extremely rude, and secondly, while all service dogs should be able to handle ANYTHING, some dogs will take this as a threat, and you could get bitten. If you wouldn't do it with a strange dog you saw on the street, you shouldn't do it to the working dog!
> 
> 3. Don't automatically assume a handler is blind.
> 
> 4. To go along with #3, don't assume the handler is blind, and then tell your child it is ok to pet the dog, because the handler won't be able to see. I can't tell you how other handlers will react, but I will verbally eviscerate you, because that is NOT COOL!
> 
> 5. Do not accuse a person of not having a real service dog because they are not blind. Not all disabilities are visible.
> 
> 6. Admire, but do not gawk. It is not polite to stare, and that extends to staring at the dog. This includes doing things like pointing out the dog to your child (unless you plan on educating the child). So incredibly rude and obnoxious.
> 
> 7. Do not get mad when a handler does what they need to do to protect their partner. If this includes yelling at you or your child, so be it. I personally try to be very diplomatic, and give people a chance to back off...but if you're going to stalk me around the store and get in my way while I'm shopping, you are not going to be met with a happy person.
> 
> 8. To go with #7, respect the space of the handler and the dog. This doesn't mean we expect people to move out of our way or significantly alter how they are shopping. All it means is that we would appreciate it if you would LOOK where you're walking. If the handler says "excuse me", please give them some room to pass. You would do the same for a person without a service dog, wouldn't you?
> 
> 9. You don't have to like it that the dog is in the store, but as long as the dog is a legitimate working animal, there's nothing you can do about it. Being nasty won't help anybody. Just tolerate the dog, do what you gotta do in the store, and be on your way, like any other day.
> 
> 10. Do not scream when you see the dog. The dog is there to work, and really couldn't give two craps about you. They will walk by you as if you don't even exist. They will not (should not) bite you or otherwise bother you. As far as they're concerned, you're little more than a utility pole in the middle of the aisle.
> 
> 11. It does not matter where you see the dog or what the dog is doing. It doesn't matter if the dog is in a static position (sitting, standing, or laying on the floor). The dog is working at ALL TIMES. The dog is not taking a break. The dog is doing as the handler requested, and is holding that position for a REASON. Do not distract the dog from its task. Interfering with a working service dog is an illegal offense!
> 
> 12. Control and EDUCATE your children! Explain to them that they cannot run up to strange dogs (this is a good rule of thumb anyway), and explain WHY they cannot run up to strange dogs. If your child gets away from you to go after the dog anyway, PLEASE be sure to APOLOGIZE to the handler! Also explain to the child that the dog is a "helper/working dog". Do not tell them what kind of work the dog does, because you don't know.
> 
> Not all service dog handlers are blind. Telling the child every time you see a service dog that the handler is blind, or is only a helping trainer teaching the dog to help the blind becomes a perpetual string of misinformation. That child will pass it along to another, and another, and another, and eventually, one of them will likely accuse a handler that ISN'T blind of being a fake.
> 
> 13. Reiterating rule #1!!!! My dog is medical equipment. Please do not talk to my dog. You wouldn't talk to a wheelchair, you shouldn't talk to my dog.


I agree most of them, the rest is worth a look. Thanks for your sharing. :clap2:


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## ellisonjfhan

Thanks a lot, Xeph for sharing this information. But, personally, I feel you introduced all the content about service dogs while only some info was given concerning emotional support animals. A lot of focus is going towards emotional support animals, their laws, guidelines which can be confusing. So, I insist if we could talk about emotional support animal letters and related factors that can help people finding the right solution.


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## LittleFr0g

ellisonjfhan said:


> Thanks a lot, Xeph for sharing this information. But, personally, I feel you introduced all the content about service dogs while only some info was given concerning emotional support animals. A lot of focus is going towards emotional support animals, their laws, guidelines which can be confusing. So, I insist if we could talk about emotional support animal letters and related factors that can help people finding the right solution.


Because this thread is not ABOUT emotional support animals, it's about service dogs. If you'd like to talk about emotional support animals, please start your own thread and do not hijack this one. Thank you.


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## SeanIvy

Thank you Xeph for all the hard work.

I am not much aware of a service dog, but I always wonder How can they help disable person and these are just dogs with training. You have explained everything in detail and good work!


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## Thrould

It is very good to apply it


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## Utop1st

Since I'm technically new to the SD, ESD issue, I think a national or federally run registry would drive up the cost od SD especially. You would either have to pass some tests or have a professionally trained dog. As it is if you can obedience train your dog then train it to do what ever you need it to do and the dog can behave in public and you have a legitimate disability or medical need you are in...or OK. I see nothing wrong with that. 

I agree it is an education thing as far as the work place. Not many know what to do if you come in with a SD. Dealing with the disabled should be accompanied with dealing with the SD, no different than dealing with a wheelchair, walker, or powered cart.


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## ColemanStr

I own a service dog and am glad this thread was posted. He is small and I do not have a visible disability, so we face out fair share of discrimination. The hardest thing for me to deal with is how many people ask what I have him for or what is wrong with me... ugh.


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## Bentwings

I don’t have a true service dog. I do train extensively along the line however. 
I will never bother or ask about a service dog by my own volition. If you would like to meet me or my dog just say “hay yu” bruskly and j will look towards you. You have asked for my attention and I may or may not respond further, nicely. As a rule I’ll never bother or ask about an obvious service dog. Person. If it happens to be a home store of other store that routinely allows dogs i most likely will reverse course and go out of the way. The last thing I want to do is leave a bad taste for people with assistance dogs. There are just too many people violating the rules. I don’t bring my dog in without first asking if it is permitted. From there if I see another person with a dog we go back out and come again some other time. My dog is anESA dog. had to go over more jumps and through more tunnels than a master agility course to get the doctors approval an recommendations. As with other people that have service dogs I didn’t ask for this condition and don’t want it. I love my dog and she does her job well. Should another person with impairments become friendly with this purported owly dispositioned person and want to just chat on friendly terms especially about dogs I’d welcome that. I’d prefer to stay away from medical issues


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