# I feel sorry for these dogs.



## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Another "Pitbull" attack:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?s...ngeles&id=7494789&cmp=fb-kabc-article-7494789

So sad how people think they should ban or euthanize all "pitbulls". Read some of the comments.

I feel sorry more and more for these dogs. BSL needs to end.


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## puppy.l0ve (May 2, 2010)

yeah, there's no way this dog was provoked or anything, i bet the kid is a little angel; it's all the dogs fault.

i feel sorry for the kid, don't get me wrong, but they'll never know if he did anything to cause this attack, as i'm sure he won't admit to it, nor will the owner admit if he was to blame. just blame the dog.
ugh!


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## Cowgirl Kristin (Feb 19, 2010)

Well it sounds like this dog was NOT provoked. According to witnesses, he jumped out of the window and just started biting several kids, and then mauled the little boy. It sounds like it is the owner's fault for not making sure his dog was secured. Punish the idiots that create child killing monsters, not the breed. If you live in an apartment complex with that many kids, you shouldn't have a dog like that around them!


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

I don't think the dog was necessarily provoked from that story. I don't know why it would just attack the child, unless it's poorly socialized to the point of viewing anything outside of its home as a threat.

However, why was the dog given the opportunity to jump out of an open window? 

Sounds like the fault of the owner to me. In failing to socialize his/her dog and properly contain it.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

Open window with a dog on one side and a bunch of kids on the other. I wouldn't doubt the kids were teasing the dog or at least getting too close.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Terrie said:


> Open window with a dog on one side and a bunch of kids on the other. I wouldn't doubt the kids were teasing the dog or at least getting too close.


A dog that would jump out of a window and begin biting people and then attack and maim a child has some socialization issues. Not necessarily the fault of the dog.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

Entwine said:


> A dog that would jump out of a window and begin biting people and then attack and maim a child has some socialization issues. Not necessarily the fault of the dog.


I'm saying it's the kids' fault.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Terrie said:


> I'm saying it's the kids' fault.


It's a five year-old child's fault? I really think that's about as fair as saying it's the dog's fault.

Where was the child's parent? It said she ran outside to her son. So she was inside. Neither the children nor the dog was being supervised, which indicates a serious negligence on both the parent's and the dog owner's part.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

There was more than one child. I assume some were older than 5. The dog probably went for the 5 year old because chances were he was the smallest, weakest looking one. IMO.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Before we bicker about the article, there is really nothing to go on. A witness said "The dog jumped out of the window, started biting everybody and then went for the little boy" but the several bitten people is not even confirmed by the article/police. And you know the saying about witness testimony. I think some of us are a bit over zealous about protecting the reputation of dogs to assume what happened when we weren't there and to go off any thing a small news article says.

Also, I don't know how far I would trust an article that says any dog "was crazed and attacked with a vengeance"


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Wow... Some very harsh critics here. I sort of have a nasty taste in my mouth from reading the article, watching the clip, the string of comments about the article and then reading replies here.
Why is it that those whom are so worried about protecting a breed aren't as worried about protecting children? I love ALL breeds of dogs and before anyone says I'm a pitbull hater- I was raised, somewhat, by a very special APBT named Spudz. He will always hold a special place in my heart.
I have also shared my adult life with some other so called dangerous breeds- 2 German Shepherd Dogs and a Rottweiler. And I will own these breeds again. I also realize that it is my duty as an owner of an agressive breed to train, socialize, and control my dogs so that they can be shining ambassadors for their breed. I am against BSL but I am also against ANY blanket statement. 
I was attacked by a Doberman (one of my FAV breeds btw) when I was 7. My nephew (whom was 4) and I were outside playing together. I was on roller skates and he was riding his big wheel in the driveway. 
The Doberman ran out an open front door and made a beeline for my little nephew. I am not sure if instinct or what kicked in but I began waving my arms and yelling and the dog changed direction and headed straight for me. She knocked me down and I rolled over on my stomach. She then proceeded to bite onto the back of my neck and shake and drag me. Neighbors, my brother, and the dogs' owner reached us and seperated her from me but not before she got a few quick bites in to my legs.
I was taken to the hospital and treated (stitches and wound cleaning) and sent home. The owners of the dog refused to pay hospital bills or to accept any responsibility. Their reasoning was this: My nephew and I had provoked the attack by 1.) running and playing 2.) the sounds of my skates and his big wheel on the driveway.
My parents never did pursue anything with the owners and this same dog was PTS a year later after she attacked a 3 year old boy and his father out on a walk. I am sure they were doing something to provoke the dog then also. (sarcasm, of course). 
Many owners of dogs get agitated when others jump to conclusions about the breed they choose to own and share their home with. Many bully breed owners get extremely upset when the media portrays them as monsters. Why then choose to follow the 'unknowings' way of thinking and attack the children whom pay the ultimate price often times? 
I will always be against BSL and no matter what breed I choose to own I will gladly stand beside those whom are fighting for their beloved breed because I don't believe in generalizations of ANY kind.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

I say its the owners and parent's fault. The owners were not controlling their dogs and the parents were not watching the kids. I never blame the animal. Because most of the time, of not all the time, it is the owner's or another human's fault.

And in this case it was the owner's and parent's fault.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

puppy.l0ve said:


> yeah, there's no way this dog was provoked or anything, i bet the kid is a little angel; it's all the dogs fault.
> 
> i feel sorry for the kid, don't get me wrong, but they'll never know if he did anything to cause this attack, as i'm sure he won't admit to it, nor will the owner admit if he was to blame. just blame the dog.
> ugh!


The kid was five. The dog, regardless of breed, needs to be dead. No ifs, and, or buts.

The fact that the dogs dbag owner walked him around on a heavy chain says it all. It's these kind of owners that cause pit bulls to suffer more and die more than any other breed.


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## chrisn6104 (Jun 8, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> The fact that the dogs dbag owner walked him around on a heavy chain says it all. It's these kind of owners that cause pit bulls to suffer more and die more than any other breed.


HUH? Did you read a different article? I didn't see anything about the owner walking the dog with a heavy chain. 
Baseless assumption? 
Heavy chains make killer dogs? Interesting.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> The kid was five. The dog, regardless of breed, needs to be dead. No ifs, and, or buts.


Precisely.



chrisn6104 said:


> HUH? Did you read a different article? I didn't see anything about the owner walking the dog with a heavy chain.
> Baseless assumption?
> Heavy chains make killer dogs? Interesting.


No, a witness says it in the video clip. She says she'd seen the owner walking the dog on a very thick chain.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> *The kid was five. The dog, regardless of breed, needs to be dead. No ifs, and, or buts.*
> 
> The fact that the dogs dbag owner walked him around on a heavy chain says it all. It's these kind of owners that cause pit bulls to suffer more and die more than any other breed.


Don't even bother to take the dog in and see if his behavior can be corrected? I would give the dog a second chance. The parent's should have been watching the kid, and the owner should have controlled the dog. And since he couldn't he should not be allowed to own a dog of any breed again. 

I would take the dog away from that owner, and see if the behavior can be corrected and adopted out to a childless home.


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## PetersGirl (Feb 8, 2010)

> Witnesses say five-year-old Jose Sadino never had a chance. They say the pit bull was crazed and attacked with a vengeance, severely mauling the boys head


This part bothered me the most; that is an assumption written for emotional gain by the reporter. It is disgusting what the media does for attention.

Honestly though, who are we to say who is to blame? All we know is what was written in this story, how do we know any of it is true to begin with? A dog just happened to be walking by when all of a sudden it jumped through a window and attacked this boy? Something tells me this was written with a bit of drama to heighten the fear of pitbulls. I dont think it was the parents or the boys fault...how could the parents have known their kids were in danger when they opened the window? How many of you dont open your windows in fear of something jumping in and attacking you? Not me, Ill tell you that. Definitely not something I consider. If that is all that happened, it was a freak accident.

Remember the Tiger escape at SF Zoo a few years ago? "Reports" say the boys did not provoke the cat, but did they ever put in the newspapers the fact that the investigators found a partial shoe print on the railing of the tiger's cage. They did not put this because they dont want to say the humans are at fault.. it was a malicious act by a man-eating crazed animal. Right, more like it was a poorly treated, hungry, provoked wild animal who was pushed to its limits and acted upon its instincts.

The person to blame here is the dogs owner. That person should be euthanized with the dog.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

PetersGirl said:


> This part bothered me the most; that is an assumption written for emotional gain by the reporter. It is disgusting what the media does for attention.
> 
> Honestly though, who are we to say who is to blame? All we know is what was written in this story, how do we know any of it is true to begin with? A dog just happened to be walking by when all of a sudden it jumped through a window and attacked this boy? Something tells me this was written with a bit of drama to heighten the fear of pitbulls. I dont think it was the parents or the boys fault...how could the parents have known their kids were in danger when they opened the window? How many of you dont open your windows in fear of something jumping in and attacking you? Not me, Ill tell you that. Definitely not something I consider. If that is all that happened, it was a freak accident.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%, but I think ethuanizing a dog is a last resort, but that IMO.


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## PetersGirl (Feb 8, 2010)

Its a tough situation... I think all dogs deserve a second chance, but imagine if that happend to your son, would you think the same thing? Its just a scary situation. 

I was watching this show on Great White attacks, and this group of teenagers in Australia were wakeboarding in the ocean when one of the boys was attacked and killed. The local authorities wanted to hunt down the shark and kill it, but the boys father demanded they dont, because it wasnt the sharks fault, he was acting on instinct. I know this is somewhat irrelevant, but I think that with any bully breed, wild animal, whatever, people just need to be more aware of what they are getting into. This person never should have been walking the dog around people, because there is no way the pit would just all of a sudden be overcome with aggression... there is something more to that story


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

PetersGirl said:


> Its a tough situation... I think all dogs deserve a second chance, but imagine if that happend to your son, would you think the same thing? Its just a scary situation.
> 
> I was watching this show on Great White attacks, and this group of teenagers in Australia were wakeboarding in the ocean when one of the boys was attacked and killed. The local authorities wanted to hunt down the shark and kill it, but the boys father demanded they dont, because it wasnt the sharks fault, he was acting on instinct. I know this is somewhat irrelevant, but I think that with any bully breed, wild animal, whatever, people just need to be more aware of what they are getting into. This person never should have been walking the dog around people, because there is no way the pit would just all of a sudden be overcome with aggression... there is something more to that story


If it was my kid, I would have yelled at the dog owner. And ask animal control to have ethuanization as a last resort.


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## PetersGirl (Feb 8, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> If it was my kid, I would have yelled at the dog owner. And ask animal control to have ethuanization as a last resort.


I think I wouldve strangled the guy!!


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

JessieLove09 said:


> Don't even bother to take the dog in and see if his behavior can be corrected? I would give the dog a second chance. The parent's should have been watching the kid, and the owner should have controlled the dog. And since he couldn't he should not be allowed to own a dog of any breed again.
> 
> I would take the dog away from that owner, and see if the behavior can be corrected and adopted out to a childless home.


Really? And WHO, pray tell, is going to "correct" the behavior? There are too many GOOD dogs out there who need homes. This dog needs to be put down. 

It's a sad world when a child's parents are blamed because their child was playing just outside his home. His mother heard the screams, and ran outside - to throw herself over her child trying to protect him. Even sadder, still, that a 5-yr. old child is blamed, as other posters have done. Blame the owner, yes. Not that it'll be of any help to the victim.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

poodleholic said:


> It's a sad world when a child's parents are blamed because their child was playing just outside his home. His mother heard the screams, and ran outside - to throw herself over her child trying to protect him.


A five year-old child should not be playing outside unsupervised, IMO.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

While I agree a 5yr old shouldn't be outside, unsupervised and I may have missed something, we don't know where the adults were. They may have been on a porch, watching outside a window or not watching at all. Did I miss where it said the ages of all the kids? What about a 12yr old? They're old enough to be alone outside. That doesn't excuse the fact that the dog jumped out a window, went after a group of kids & attacked a 5yr old. That shouldn't happen. This isn't just a bite, this is an attack. This dog needs to be euthanized. This is not the kind of dog that should be trusted around kids. He's a horrible accident waiting to happen, again.


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## sukhakuli (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm really surprised that the child is being blamed here. Actually, I'm shocked. It doesn't say in the article if the child was playing unsupervised, it just said the mother came outside. There have been times here in my cul de sac where all the moms were outside watching the kids play, and I would go in for a minute to get the kids some water, or something, and the other moms were keeping an eye on my kid. I wouldn't call that unsupervised. 

And I also find it surprising that some people think there are no viscious dogs. As much as it would be nice to think that all dog owners are great owners who love their dogs, that is just not reality. And dogs that are mistreated, not trained, and not socialized have the potential to be viscious. My neighbor has 4 unaltered pits next door. When my kids are in the yard playing, they are head butting the fence, growling and barking to get to my kids - and completely unprovoked. They actually started to knock the fence down, so I talked to the neighbor who told me to go F myself and that the dogs are protecting his yard and my kids need to stay out of our yard. I ended up having the fence reinforced so the dogs can't get through (at my own expense). Now, when my kids are in the yard playing, the husband is out every other minute screaming at the dogs and using bad language to try t make them stop barking. And, yes, I've called AC who doesn't do anything. I have no doubt that if those dogs breached the fence they would attack my kids. My kids are not provoking these dogs, they are playing in their sand box and on the swingset. They always stay away from the fence because they are terrified of those dogs. Thankfully we're moving this week, so it won't be my headache anymore.

I don't think it is the fault of the breed. I myself own a German Shepherd, who is the most wonderful dogs with kids I have ever seen. The problem lies with the fact that when people like my neighbor are looking for a dog, they don't go out and buy a pug. They get a badly bred rottie or pit bull, throw it out in the yard, and laugh with their friends about their mean dog. I really think that a good APBT owner is probably an extremely high caliber dog owner, be cause it's not a breed that you get in to unless you can really pull it all together, so a good owner is wonderful, and I'm sure those dogs are fine to have in neighborhoods. But, it is all too easy for idiots like my neighbor to get a pit out of the paper, treat it badly, and then when it gets out it murders a neighbor kid. It's not the child or the mother's fault that someone can't raise and train their dog appropriately.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

sukhakuli said:


> I'm really surprised that the child is being blamed here. Actually, I'm shocked. It doesn't say in the article if the child was playing unsupervised, it just said the mother came outside. There have been times here in my cul de sac where all the moms were outside watching the kids play, and I would go in for a minute to get the kids some water, or something, and the other moms were keeping an eye on my kid. I wouldn't call that unsupervised.


I'm not blaming the child. I believe only one person did that.

And the article would never say the child was playing unsupervised, as it is clearly a biased article.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> The kid was five. The dog, regardless of breed, needs to be dead. No ifs, and, or buts.
> 
> The fact that the dogs dbag owner walked him around on a heavy chain says it all. It's these kind of owners that cause pit bulls to suffer more and die more than any other breed.


This. I don't care what kind of dog it is. There's no excuse for this behavior. That's horrible.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Who the hell would want to own or save some POS dog that mauled a child??? And WHY?


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## puppy.l0ve (May 2, 2010)

i don't believe everything i see on tv or read, if it's on the internet i believe it even less. that being said, this is what i do believe:
1) there was a dog, "pit bull", involved.
2) there was a 5 year old that received injuries from said "pit bull".

(keep in mind i have not seen the video.)
the first sentence of the article said "the boy never had a chance." just from that, i can tell this story is biased, but let's continue.

we'll go ahead and skip over all the condemning/opinionated words/phrases, ex - "the pit bull was crazed and attacked with a vengeance."

it has been asked before, but what happened to all the others that were "bitten" by the "pit bull"? why would the dog bite people on it's way to the 5 year old? that doesn't make sense.

it later says that the dog was scared off, then somehow appeared on a balcony and jumped when the authorities pointed guns at it. my question - what dog knows that a gun is harmful? i'll bet that if i pointed a gun at any of my dogs, they'd sniff it to see what it was. and if i pointed it at them from the ground while they were up on a balcony, they would just look at me. they wouldn't jump off and risk their life. and that's even if they had just gotten into the trash can and redecorated the living room.

what happened to "innocent until proven guilty"? or does that not apply for dogs?
evaluate the dog with professional who doesn't fear him/her, as that could trigger aggression.
charge the owner if the dog fails the evaluation, and the child's mother/parents should be held responsible also.

kids are mean. when i was in elementary, i saw some big kids make these two younger kids (brother and sister) do some horrible things, like lick the bottom of the bus, made the girl lift her shirt, eat their boogers, etc. around the time i was 10 - 12, i did some awful things to my brother who was 7 years my junior, i made him eat a jalapeno, gave him wedgies, threw him in kiddie pools.
my point? if that were my child, i would not have let him be outside unsupervised unless there an older child with him and that was related by blood, and even then i'd be weary, because i haven't forgotten how kids are.

i do not believe the kid deserved being hurt, i wish him a safe and quick recovery, but who's to say that any of the children didn't provoke and taunt the dog? it's unlikely that the dog did this just because, unless he was so severely unsocalized, as someone else said. it is even more unlikely that the dog did this just because and did not show any signs of aggression (barking, growling, scratching the window), but of course the article says nothing about that either. is the owners apartment damaged, are the blinds tore up? scratches on the window seal, door? 
but we'll never know if the dog was provoked as the children will not confess, be it the 5 year old or any other child. unlike the dog, they know the consequences, especially if their parents are pro bsl, they're going to convince the child to say this or that so the dog remains the bad seed.

as far as the witnesses go, that "big chain" someone mentioned, could be an exaggeration, and they could be pro bsl, and know what is implied by saying that; it was a fighting dog and it was bred to be aggressive.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

All I can say is WOW after reading some of the responses here. It doesnt say the kid was unsupervised at all, there were witnesses so how could the kid be unsupervised. And to say the kid or kids might have or probably provoked the dog??? What is wrong with you people? Sure its a news story and probably blown out of proportion or a bit biased, but the witnesses said the dog is always trying to get at people...how is that the kids fault? A five year old boy was seriously hurt...this dog should be PTS and if I was his mother I wouldnt stop until it was.


I am not against Pit bulls and I do agree that some are provoked and its not the dogs fault...this is probably the owners fault for not socializing the dog (again we dont know if there were any medical issues going on) but to blame the kid??? it just seems like some people here are hell bent on defending the breed (or any dangerous breed for that matter) that you now put the blame on anyone else as long as the dog isnt blamed.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

It just makes me sad - the whole story, for the kid, for the dog. 

It's even sadder that people don't blame the adults for these sort of behavior. 

If the kid did provoke the dog, then what kind of parent doesn't teach their kid not to mess around with a supposedly "crazed dog, out with a vengeance". 

If the dog was crazed, what kind of owner doesn't seek professional help
for a dog? Or even keep the dog well contained? 

It drives me nuts that these kind of people are allowed to walk the streets everyday, while innocent dogs and children suffer the consequences. Owning dangerous dog breeds and having children should be regulated.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

But I dont even understand why people are even bringing up the..."if the kid did provoke the dog" where does it give any indication that this might have happened? it said the kids were playing and the dog came out the window...it sounds like this dog had issues and didnt need to be prevoked.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

The dog's owner is obviously a d-bag and a moron. I don't care what breed it is either, or if the report is biased or not. A dog mauled a child- something no stable, normal dog would do. Any dog that goes further than a warning growl and a quick departure in my house is not going to stay here. I also don't let my son torment or corner my dogs. That's my job as a mom. It is NOT my job to make sure peoples' psychotic piece of crap dogs don't jump out of their windows. Even if they were teasing the dog, only a monster would leap out and attack a child viciously in the head and face. We kill perfectly nice dogs daily... to save a dog like this??? Again- WHY?


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## Wynpyp (Sep 19, 2008)

The dog needs to be PTS. No dog that attacks a child deserves to stay alive. I don't care what the child may have or may not have done. It was a 5 yr old child... 5 yr old's aren't "mean". I agree with Foyerhawk... we do kill perfect dogs daily. Why save an agressive one that has attacked a child?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

poodleholic said:


> Really? And WHO, pray tell, is going to "correct" the behavior? There are too many GOOD dogs out there who need homes. This dog needs to be put down.
> 
> It's a sad world when a child's parents are blamed because their child was playing just outside his home. His mother heard the screams, and ran outside - to throw herself over her child trying to protect him. Even sadder, still, that a 5-yr. old child is blamed, as other posters have done. Blame the owner, yes. Not that it'll be of any help to the victim.



Animal trainers, vets, animal behaviorists, dedicated foster parents. Who dod you think rehabilitated the Vick dogs?

A 5 year old should NOT be left outside unsupervised, so yes the parent is to blame.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> The dog's owner is obviously a d-bag and a moron. I don't care what breed it is either, or if the report is biased or not. A dog mauled a child- something no stable, normal dog would do. Any dog that goes further than a warning growl and a quick departure in my house is not going to stay here. I also don't let my son torment or corner my dogs. That's my job as a mom. It is NOT my job to make sure *peoples' psychotic piece of crap dogs don't jump out of their windows.* Even if they were teasing the dog, only a monster would leap out and attack a child viciously in the head and face. We kill perfectly nice dogs daily... to save a dog like this??? Again- WHY?


Sorry but I thought that was mean and rude, you should be calling the owner a piece of crap not the dog.

Why let the dog live?Because you can probably rehabilitate the dog and give to a person who is RESPONSIBLE and knows the dog breed and can provide for the dogs special needs. 

In this case it was the OWNER'S FAULT. I don't blame the dog at all.Why? because its the owner who should have been responsible and kept control of their dog, and trained it. I don't believe some of the witnesses, they are probably biased too.

I NEVER blame the dog, and never will, because most of the time, if not all the time, its the humans fault whether its the owner or the kid.In this case its the owners fault.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> Who the hell would want to own or save some POS dog that mauled a child??? And WHY?


Seriously call the dog a POS?Call the owner that.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

puppy.l0ve said:


> i don't believe everything i see on tv or read, if it's on the internet i believe it even less. that being said, this is what i do believe:
> 1) there was a dog, "pit bull", involved.
> 2) there was a 5 year old that received injuries from said "pit bull".
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. But apparently according to some people, the dog deservs to die for something his owner caused. Calling a dog a POS is somewhat pro-BSL IMO. Its the owner who didn't train, socialize his dog properly(that is what it seems to be) so he is the one who should be called a POS.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

PetersGirl said:


> I think I wouldve strangled the guy!!


Yes that too.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Entwine said:


> A five year-old child should not be playing outside unsupervised, IMO.


I would agree, however, in this scenerio, there were several other children outside, in addition to the adults who were present and witnessed this dog's attack on the 5-yr. old, and the others who were also bitten. 

Your opinion on the supervision of children is irrelavant to this dog's unstable, dangerous temperament, and the tragic results.

My 3 dogs aren't around little kids very often, yet during my 5-yr. old grandson's birthday party where there were 10 other kids running around, jumping, squealing, and shrieking, not to mention their pestering of adults AND my 3 Standard Poodles, not once during those several hours did my dogs exhibit any negative behavior. Despite one determined child's poking fingers, another's ball bouncing off a hip and a head, and numerous invasions into the dogs' space, they handled it all with gracious acceptance, tolerance, and gentle licks here and there. Excellent temperaments, all, but I still supervise when children are present. Safety first.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but I just have to.

I have Rottweiler's which are another powerful and considered dangerous breed. I love my dogs very very much. They are my children, as I do not have any human children. That said, if my dogs jumped through a window and viciously attacked a small child.... I would drive them to the nearest vet and have them put to sleep. I would NOT keep a dog alive that would attack a 5 year old child in such a vicious manner.

Keep in mind that I also watch my dogs, would be completely aware that they were by a window and agitated. I would have removed them from that situation before it escalated. 

This situation is not the child's fault in any way. Whether he was teasing the dog or not, the parents of the child and the owner's of the dog were not there to teach the child otherwise or to remove the dog from the situation before it occurred. In my opinion, that makes it 100% their fault.

My heart breaks for this child and his family and also, once again for this wonderful breed of dog that gets another black mark against it because of negligence.

As far as the heavy chain thing... I hate seeing people walking these dogs around with these stupid chains too. I think people who are insecure in their own strengths tend to do that. I don't think the chain alone proves a dog is good or bad. I have known far too many wonderful dogs that had ignorant owners. It wasn't the dogs fault the owner was stupid. IMO


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Inga said:


> I wasn't going to comment on this thread but I just have to.
> 
> I have Rottweiler's which are another powerful and considered dangerous breed. I love my dogs very very much. They are my children, as I do not have any human children. That said, if my dogs jumped through a window and viciously attacked a small child.... I would drive them to the nearest vet and have them put to sleep. I would NOT keep a dog alive that would attack a 5 year old child in such a vicious manner.
> 
> ...


Great post! I can't imagine how a 5yr old could tease a dog that was behind a window...I


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

I have read and reread and watched the video and no where do I see any indication that the boy or any other kids were teasing the dog...infact if you look at the "window" they say the dog jumped out of...its a cement or stucco balcony...the kids couldnt even see the dog on the other side of the window to tease it...I dont understand why people keep bringing it up and blaming the kid and the mom. This was no fault of theirs...this was 100% the owners fault for having a dangerous dog and not socializing it. Witnesses said that the dogs are always trying to get at people...how does that make this kid even partially at fault?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> I have read and reread and watched the video and no where do I see any indication that the boy or any other kids were teasing the dog...infact if you look at the "window" they say the dog jumped out of...its a cement or stucco balcony...the kids couldnt even see the dog on the other side of the window to tease it...I dont understand why people keep bringing it up and blaming the kid and the mom. This was no fault of theirs...this was 100% the owners fault for having a dangerous dog and not socializing it. Witnesses said that the dogs are always trying to get at people...how does that make this kid even partially at fault?


No one is blaming the kid!We are blaming the parents and the owner!


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

poodleholic said:


> I would agree, however, in this scenerio, there were several other children outside, in addition to the adults who were present and witnessed this dog's attack on the 5-yr. old, and the others who were also bitten.
> 
> Your opinion on the supervision of children is irrelavant to this dog's unstable, dangerous temperament, and the tragic results.
> 
> My 3 dogs aren't around little kids very often, yet during my 5-yr. old grandson's birthday party where there were 10 other kids running around, jumping, squealing, and shrieking, not to mention their pestering of adults AND my 3 Standard Poodles, not once during those several hours did my dogs exhibit any negative behavior. Despite one determined child's poking fingers, another's ball bouncing off a hip and a head, and numerous invasions into the dogs' space, they handled it all with gracious acceptance, tolerance, and gentle licks here and there. Excellent temperaments, all, but I still supervise when children are present. Safety first.


Your dogs were socialized properly am I right?SO that explains why they wouldn't attack the kids.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

I really have a hard time believing that the dog jumped through the window on purpose like the story is saying. The only way I would think a dog would jump though a window is because the dog was trained to.

The owner is at fault, not the dog. The owner is POS, not the dog.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> No one is blaming the kid!We are blaming the parents and the owner!


There are at least 4 posts or more that talk about the kid (s) teasing the dog or provoking it.

And how are the parents to blame in any of this? You dont know that the child was unsupervised...there were other adults outside. Besides that whether the parents were there or not this is in no way their fault...this is the owners fault for having such a dangerous dog.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> I really have a hard time believing that the dog jumped through the window on purpose like the story is saying. The only way I would think a dog would jump though a window is because the dog was trained to.
> 
> .


Why do you think the dog wouldnt jump through the window?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> Why do you think the dog wouldnt jump through the window?


The way the story puts it. They put as if the dog purposely wanted to jump through the window and attack the kid, which I highly doubt. The owner is fault, and I think when people were blaming the mom is because, sh had to run outside. Also they weren't saying the kid in this story provoked the dog, they were just alot of the pitbull attacks on kids are caused by the kid provoking the kid.

I am trying to find an updated version of this story. There was another "pitbull" attack and when they updated the story the dog ended up being a boxer.


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## ErisAlpine (Nov 13, 2009)

For those of you who are pointing the blame at the child or his parents, please step aside with your ignorant comments and let the REAL Pit bull lovers/advocates do their jobs. All these malicious comments directing blame at the child and his parents reflect on those actually who do care about the breed. You do them no favors and those who are all gung ho on having this breed banned or even destroyed lurk on forums such as this and you just give them more fuel to their already existing hate and if you cannot be reasonable..well you do the breed no favors when such ignorance is displayed. One particular comment I read here made me feel physically ill. I love all dogs, Pit bulls included but I would never ever place any dog before a child..but hey that is just me. I feel that this particular dog should be put down regardless of the circumstances. This story is just heart wrenching, I wish that I would of never even clicked thank link.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Some dogs will certainly jump out of windows without having been trained to do so. A strong dog amped up on prey drive will do it without blinking. 

The owner of this dog is to blame. And this dog need to be put down. I love pit bulls. They aren't for everyone. Certainly the person who had this one should NOT have.

This is a tragedy. I feel terrible for the child and the child's family. I also hope that innocent dogs do not have to die for the the ignorance of this particular dog owner.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> Some dogs will certainly jump out of windows without having been trained to do so. A strong dog amped up on prey drive will do it without blinking.
> 
> The owner of this dog is to blame. And this dog need to be put down. I love pit bulls. They aren't for everyone. Certainly the person who had this one should NOT have.
> 
> This is a tragedy. I feel terrible for the child and the child's family. I also hope that innocent dogs do not have to die for the the ignorance of this particular dog owner.



I do feel for the child, its always sad when child is killed. The owner is to blame 100%. I think they should try and rehabilitate these dogs and give them another chance, and save ethunization as a last resort(thats IMO)


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Yeah, the dog is a POS- which isn't his fault, but it's reality and there's NO REASON to save this monster when millions of NICE pit bulls need homes.


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## VeronicaScott (Jun 15, 2010)

I am sorry but the dog should be put down. Imagine if that was your child or your dog that was killed by this pit. I love pits don't get me wrong but if any dog reacts like this that should be the end of their life. Sorry!


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Yeah, lets rehabilitate all aggressive dogs whom have not bit but attacked. Maybe then more healthy, absolutely wonderful dogs die in shelters waiting for homes because we are all busy rehabbing emotionally, mentally unstable dogs. That is a GREAT idea.
Sheesh.... I have volunteered in shelters before and seen many, many undersocialized dogs whom have never bitten nor attacked anyone. I have seen many of those dogs leave through the door they will never come back through, not the way they went in anyways.
Are the owners at fault? More often yes. However as I mentioned above there are many dogs, mixed and pure, that have never had proper care in their lifetime and still they do not harm anyone. 
Some dogs, not of any specific breed, are just not for the faint of heart and there are those, whom like humans, just aren't 'wired right'. 
As an above poster said, taking stances like this are in no way helping any of the bully type breeds nor other aggressive breeds. Until the advocates for these breeds accept openly that yes, in the wrong hands some of these dogs can and do attack, maim, and even kill there will be nothing acomplished. Blaming whomever you choose to is not going to fix this problem. 
I don't have all the answers but I do know that until dog lovers, in general, realize that not every dog is like their beloved 'Poochie' and that dogs are quite capable of inflicting serious harm and even death, no one in their right mind is going to side with us.
In the shelters I have volunteered at there were many wonderful, even fantastic bully breeds. They had the amazing temperment that I remember my APBT having. Lovely dogs whom, through no fault of their own, were discarded. Many weren't socialized and were treated horribly their whole lives and don't attempt to attack and are wonderful with children and everyone. I know that, as with any dog, they could and would bite given the 'right' circumstances but I didn't see those dogs as unstable nor ready to attack.
I took in Moo, a puppy mill Jack Russell Terrier. She had never been socialized before nor been around children but those whom poked her through cage bars. Was she nervous around my children? Yes and rightfully so. Did I ever worry about her attacking them? In absolutely no way. Alot of these attacks, IMO, have more to do with bad breeding and unstable temperments.
The Vick dogs are wonderful examples. I never read where any of these dogs were people aggressive nor that they had attacked anyone even after all their abuse at the hands of humans. Dogs worth saving.


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## ErisAlpine (Nov 13, 2009)

VeronicaScott said:


> I am sorry but the dog should be put down. Imagine if that was your child or your dog that was killed by this pit. I love pits don't get me wrong but if any dog reacts like this that should be the end of their life. Sorry!


I suspect that some of these people who are lobbying for the rights of this offending dog do not have children of their own. If they do I wonder if they would like to pay for this dog's rehabilitation, maybe even be the ones to adopt it. One thing is for certain, as savage as I may sound, If I were that boy's mother I would kill that dog myself if it does not get euphanized, again I say, children should ALWAYS be put before any animal. In ways I do feel for that dog because it sounds like he never had much of a chance but seriously why is the victim of a dog attack always made into the scapegoat? Is it not possible for a dog to attack unprovoked in some cases??


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

I am so sick of people blaming the kid for getting bit.
It's people that make excuse after excuse for "why" the dog bit, mauled or killed.

It wasn't socialized. The kid pulled his tail. He just needs the "right home." The sun was in his eyes. He needs to go to a trainer. He didn't mean to go for your throat, ad nauseum. Some dogs are CRAZY! And dog that bites, mauls or kills a family member, a neighbor whatever, would be dead before nighfall.


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

I feel for the family, child, pit bull and his owner. Sadly it is hard to figure out whose fault it is. It is not the dog's fault he was not properly trained/raised/etc but he mauled a child - he needs to be pts. The owner is certainly at fault for not watching/training or properly restraining his dog. As for the child's mother - she ran outside to protect her child but the story doesn't say if she had been inside the entire time, ran inside quickly to get him water, a bandaid, etc, if she left him in the charge of a neighbor or teenager to watch him for a minute so it is unfair to blame her because we have no idea what she was doing. Sadly the "pit bull" breed suffers greatly because of ignorant people. The area I live in has a culture where the pitbull is seen as a status symbol of "toughness," manhood, security (guarding belongings), etc. They are often poorly trained, unsoicalized aggresive animals. It is a sad culture that abounds here. We ran into a pit bull in petco that was purposely avoiding us (his owners told us) by trying to stay a few aisles over because their dog was dog aggresive and growled/snarled snapped at my sibe (who was taken by surprise and took a few steps back). I've seen them in home made leather harnesses that have padlocks on them. My dogs have been lunged at/snapped/growled at by pit bulls - at least three times at Petco. I have seen them tied out to cars to "protect" the cars. I see fighting dogs every few weeks. Our local AC has a row of kennels just for pitbulls because the ones they pick up are almost always aggresive or fighting animals it is such a prevalent culture here. It is sad and I say all of this to say that it isn't the breed's fault. People do this to animals - puppies don't come out instantly aggresive - people make them aggresive. They could have picked chihuahuas but they didn't. This dog is guilty of a mauling regardless of breed and sadly pitbulls have a bad reputation where I live and it is not their fault but they suffer because of it.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> Yeah, the dog is a POS- which isn't his fault, but it's reality and there's NO REASON to save this monster when millions of NICE pit bulls need homes.


This as bad as a Pro-BSL person sounds. The dog is not a POS or a monster. His owner is. His owner is the one who didn't properly train, contain their dog.

I also volunteer at the shelter, I believe every dog deserves a right to live. and if they attack someone, look and see what caused the dog to attack the person. Some of you here are now saying that some dogs can attack unprovoked and are born crazy, sound just as bad as the Pro-BSL people. To me death should be the last result for a dog. I NEVER blame the dog, because most of the time, if not all the time it is the owner's or another human's fault. I have seen a few dogs who were mean and did bite some people and were able to be rehabilitated and put into homes.

If the dog can not be rehabilitated at all and his behavior cannot be corrected then the next best thing is ethunization.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

JesseLove09--

I respect your thoughts and your position. 

I ran a shelter for 3 years. In order to protect my staff from burnout, I handled most of the euthanasia. In three years, I put down about 4,000 animals. Most of them were wonderful and loving.

Because so many dogs licked my face as they were sedated to be killed, I lost my interest in rehabilitating really screwed up pets. I killed SO MANY perfect pets that died only because they needed a home. The thought of high-risk rehabs now seems like a bad choice and a poor use of resources. Let's save the ones who are most likely to be safe and gentle and happy.

A dog that goes through a window to maul a child... Either it has been fatally undersocialized, is a genetic nightmare, or has prey drive that will never be totally contained.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I don't think I ever blamed anyone- owners, child, parents, or the dog. 

Also, look at the story of the child whom killed a dog with a barbeque fork.... Why is it okay for people to say wow- there is something mentally wrong with that child? And in the same breath turn around and think that dogs aren't born 'messed up' too? 

Say what you like but when it comes to fighting against BSL I will be one to help defend peoples rights to own 'dangerous breeds'. Even if I never own or share my home with a APBT again I will fight against any law that blankets a whole breed. After all I am a proud GSD and Rottie fan, why would I let others blackball another breed... so they can move onto others- maybe even my own breeds of choice.

The only ones here making blanket statements, that I've seen, have been those whom label everyone as 'guilty' but never consider that maybe, just maybe there was something amiss with that individual dog. I would say the same thing with ANY breed. This has NOTHING to do with BSL! This has everything to do with protecting others and the breed. 
If I had taken in an abused dog and it had attacked my child while in my care, he or she would be making a trip to the vet quickly. No ifs, ands, or buts. If my heart dog had attacked my children or other children , as badly as it would have broken my heart, she would have been PTS. 
Why do some dog lovers insist on there NEVER being anything wrong with dogs?? Why? I don't get this line of thinking. I guess it's easier to deny than accept.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't think I ever blamed anyone- owners, child, parents, or the dog.
> 
> Also, look at the story of the child whom killed a dog with a barbeque fork.... Why is it okay for people to say wow- there is something mentally wrong with that child? And in the same breath turn around and think that dogs aren't born 'messed up' too?


Because humans are capable of making the decision to do right or wrong. Dogs do not have the same thought processes we do. A person making the decision to beat an small dog to death with an object is sick and isn't something we all decide to do at some point. BOTH are something to look into because there is ALWAYS a reason a dog bites, and there is ALWAYS a reason a person does something, and when I say a reason I include things like mental health.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

That's all I'm saying.... Why do some think dogs are uncapable of being mentally messed up/damaged/however you want to say it? 
In the shelter I have seen dogs get 'kennel rage' after so long of being there. They weren't 'crazy' from the start. They became that way after being kenneled and in that environment for quite some time. Doesn't this say something about a dogs' mental state? Dogs whom have alot of drive and mentally aren't kept active have often shown behaviors stemming from the lack of stimulation. Isn't this also a mental issue?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MooMoosMommy said:


> That's all I'm saying.... Why do some think dogs are uncapable of being mentally messed up/damaged/however you want to say it?
> In the shelter I have seen dogs get 'kennel rage' after so long of being there. They weren't 'crazy' from the start. They became that way after being kenneled and in that environment for quite some time. Doesn't this say something about a dogs' mental state? Dogs whom have alot of drive and mentally aren't kept active have often shown behaviors stemming from the lack of stimulation. Isn't this also a mental issue?


I was referring to when you said "Why is it okay for people to say wow- there is something mentally wrong with that child? And in the same breath turn around and think that dogs aren't born 'messed up' too?"

Whether or not someone or dog is BORN "bad" is a whole different can of worms. Something like "kennel rage" is an environmental thing the dog experienced to cause the behavioral problem.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> That's all I'm saying.... Why do some think dogs are uncapable of being mentally messed up/damaged/however you want to say it?
> In the shelter I have seen dogs get 'kennel rage' after so long of being there. They weren't 'crazy' from the start. They became that way after being kenneled and in that environment for quite some time. Doesn't this say something about a dogs' mental state? Dogs whom have alot of drive and mentally aren't kept active have often shown behaviors stemming from the lack of stimulation. Isn't this also a mental issue?


Its called Brain Deterioration. I knew a few dogs at my shelter who had this and the trainers tried to correct it but couldn't and the dog was put to sleep. THe reason some dogs act they way do is because of something happened to them or an injury caused it. In shelters the dog's brains will start to deteriorate and will cause problems. Dogs not being trained, socialized properly will make the dog destructive.

I would try to get the behavior corrected and save ethunization as a last resort.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't think I ever blamed anyone- owners, child, parents, or the dog.
> 
> Also, look at the story of the child whom killed a dog with a barbeque fork.... Why is it okay for people to say wow- there is something mentally wrong with that child? And in the same breath turn around and think that dogs aren't born 'messed up' too?
> 
> ...


Because something caused the dog to end up that way. No dog is just born aggressive.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I was referring to when you said "Why is it okay for people to say wow- there is something mentally wrong with that child? And in the same breath turn around and think that dogs aren't born 'messed up' too?"
> 
> Whether or not someone or dog is BORN "bad" is a whole different can of worms. Something like "kennel rage" is an environmental thing the dog experienced to cause the behavioral problem.


Exactly. Humans are different than dogs.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Is kennel rage a 'mental' thing in your opinions? Is it the mental aspect of being locked away for so long? 
If so doesn't that show that dogs do indeed have mental issues that can arise? If the answer is yes can't it also be said that mental issues/challenges can also not only be learned but also be born being afflicted with some issues, so to speak?


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Also I'm not arguing that humans aren't different than dogs. I'm just wondering what line of thinking says that some humans are born mentally unstable but dogs are exempt from this.


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## f575gtc (Jun 4, 2010)

since when is "pit bull" a breed?

If anyone saw my American bulldog they would be afraid of a gentle dog because what they "hear" leads them to be afraid.

my dog has met random strange people and she makes a horrible guard dog, she goes up to them to play and lick them...

I honestly believe any breed of dog can be vicious, but it is taught, not born with


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I don't know. I (IMO) believe that dogs do indeed suffer from some mental illnesses. 
I have a son whom is nearly 6. He is going through testing right now to find out exactly what is 'wrong' with him. Problems have arose over the last 3 years that are impossible to ignore or wish away. He may have Aspergers Syndrome. 
My other 3 children are fine, although my oldest does suffer from ADHD but nothing like the son I am talking about here.
Doctors say it is something he was born with, that it didn't just occur. Although this is what they say I think mothers always question themselves with the What ifs and the shouldas... I do anyway. 
I had a Rottie whom at 2 1/2 years of age suddenly began growling at my sons and attacking my GSD. Then he began growling at odd times. I hired a behaviorlist whom tried to help me and Gus. Things got worse and worse. I had him to the vet multiple times trying my hardest to find a cause. I believed it was me, something I had done or not done.
One night he stood over my sleeping son and began growling. I was terrified. He busted out of kennels no matter what I did when the mood seemed to strike him. I was about to put him to sleep when the behavioralist asked if I would let him take him and work with him. I agreed although I felt I was handing over my child. The hurt was great.
Gus lived with Chris for about 6 months and tried to bite him a couple of times and did succeed once. Then one morning Chris called because Gus was at the emergency vets. He had begun seizuring and walking into walls. I rushed to the clinic because I wanted to be there for Gus. After some testing the results were in: Gus had a brain tumor, unoperable. The next day after much pampering and loving Chris and I let Gus go. 
I do know that most dogs aren't monsters as I never saw Gus as one. I also know that some dogs aren't able to be handled by just anyone. The doberman that attacked me when I was young proved this. She wasn't beaten or abused just not exercised mentally or physically that I saw.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't know. I (IMO) believe that dogs do indeed suffer from some mental illnesses.
> I have a son whom is nearly 6. He is going through testing right now to find out exactly what is 'wrong' with him. Problems have arose over the last 3 years that are impossible to ignore or wish away. He may have Aspergers Syndrome.
> My other 3 children are fine, although my oldest does suffer from ADHD but nothing like the son I am talking about here.
> Doctors say it is something he was born with, that it didn't just occur. Although this is what they say I think mothers always question themselves with the What ifs and the shouldas... I do anyway.
> ...


Your dog probably was in pain and the only he could tell you was through growling and biting. My dog did the same thing, but he had a split disk in his back. I tried to pet him I was petting his back and then he bit me. I didn't know why he did. I thought I mus have done something, and I did, I petTed the area where his spit disk was and it hurt him. 

Dogs can't talk like us the only to communicate to us if they are in pain is through growling, whining, biting, nipping, scatching.

I thought you said that you worked in animal shelters? I work in one and I know the reason some dogs get "Kennel Rage" is because their mind is deteriorating, and that can lead to problems. I knew a couple dogs who were put to sleep because of it.(A Rottie and Jindo)

No dog is born vicious or mean, they are taught it.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Is kennel rage a 'mental' thing in your opinions? Is it the mental aspect of being locked away for so long?
> If so doesn't that show that dogs do indeed have mental issues that can arise? If the answer is yes can't it also be said that mental issues/challenges can also not only be learned but also be born being afflicted with some issues, so to speak?


OK, I think the wires are crossed somewhere. Because I already said "there is ALWAYS a reason a dog bites, and there is ALWAYS a reason a person does something, and *when I say a reason I include things like mental health.*" 

Arise, yes. Born with like you initially made the comparison? Like I said, that is a whole different can of worms. Are dogs born with behavioral problems? I don't personally think so, but I'm not HIGHLY educated on psychology or any thing of that subject.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Is kennel rage a 'mental' thing in your opinions? Is it the mental aspect of being locked away for so long?
> If so doesn't that show that dogs do indeed have mental issues that can arise? If the answer is yes can't it also be said that mental issues/challenges can also not only be learned but also be born being afflicted with some issues, so to speak?


the Kennel rage is caused by brain deterioration. Which can cause problems in behavior and and health.


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## puppy.l0ve (May 2, 2010)

please note that this is not directed towards everyone who has posted in this thread; that being said, i need to say this, if for no other reason than to clear my head/wash my hands of this topic.
i've had it with all the bashing of others for expressing their thoughts about this matter, filling in blanks and twisting words. instead of asking questions to clarify, assumptions and snide remarks have been made and insults were thrown around.
(something i learned in high school - when you assume it makes an _ass_ out of _u_ and _me_).

if you would like to have an open-minded discussion, you're welcome to pm me, otherwise consider it lesson learned - people aren't mature enough to keep a level head about hearing/accepting other's opinions.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

puppy.l0ve said:


> please note that this is not directed towards everyone who has posted in this thread; that being said, i need to say this, if for no other reason than to clear my head/wash my hands of this topic.
> i've had it with all the bashing of others for expressing their thoughts about this matter, filling in blanks and twisting words. instead of asking questions to clarify, assumptions and snide remarks have been made and insults were thrown around.
> (something i learned in high school - when you assume it makes an _ass_ out of _u_ and _me_).
> 
> if you would like to have an open-minded discussion, you're welcome to pm me, otherwise consider it lesson learned - people aren't mature enough to keep a level head about hearing/accepting other's opinions.


Well said.


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## TheBearCat (Jun 5, 2010)

I feel for the mother who almost lost her child*

I feel for the child who suffered such a traumatic experience.

I feel for the dog who was never properly socialized and trained, and will undoubtedly fall victim to his owner's ignorance. 


And lastly, I feel disappointment and disgust in the owner. The importance of proper training cannot be stressed enough, and yet a fool like this is able to be in charge of something's well being. Whether they intended to create a dangerous animal or not, they did and caused undue suffering. 

Legal action should be taken without question. 

*I've yet to find reports that the little boy wasn't recovering


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

puppy.l0ve said:


> please note that this is not directed towards everyone who has posted in this thread; that being said, i need to say this, if for no other reason than to clear my head/wash my hands of this topic.
> i've had it with all the bashing of others for expressing their thoughts about this matter, filling in blanks and twisting words. instead of asking questions to clarify, assumptions and snide remarks have been made and insults were thrown around.
> (something i learned in high school - when you assume it makes an _ass_ out of _u_ and _me_).
> 
> if you would like to have an open-minded discussion, you're welcome to pm me, otherwise consider it lesson learned - people aren't mature enough to keep a level head about hearing/accepting other's opinions.


No one is bashing anyone.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I apologize if I offended someone but didn't think I was bashing anyone nor their opinions. I thought this was a discussion.

And yes I did volunteer at shelters. I was also told that kennel rage was due to being in a kennel/that environment for so long. Forgive me if I am wrong. 

Everyone has opinions and I thought forums were for discussions. Adults should be able to have discussions as long as there is no name calling. Debating can be healthy. I don't expect everyone to think my way but I also don't think I should have to bend on my views either. 
But to anyone whom was offended by this debate I am truly sorry....
I also knew, later, why my dog was behaving that way (because of pain) but at the time didn't understand it. He was a GREAT dog.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I thought it was a discussion, too. Apparently it was viewed a different way, but I found nothing hostile.

I have to admit I have never heard the phrase kennel rage. I've heard kennel shy/aggressive, but that pertains to being aggressive when kenneled. What do they mean a dogs brain deteriorates when in the shelter too long? That sounds really far fetched to me, but I'll have to google. We've had dozens of puppy mill dogs come through the rescue- some as old as 9- and adjusted to normal life. Jonas was in a kennel for 3 years, Magpie lived in a garage for her entire life, and Jack was at the shelter for over a year. Save for Jonas (who lives a happy life regardless) they are all normal dogs.


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## ErisAlpine (Nov 13, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> Because something caused the dog to end up that way. No dog is just born aggressive.


Maybe but my own dog IS aggressive with those he does not know very well, I have taken him to many trainers who told me they cannot help him and I should put him down..Those exact same trainers told me I done everything right with my dog right from the get go and they say my dog's aggressive attributes come from some bad wiring in his brain and I was told that he is most likely the result of bad breeding and trust me it happens, I am not giving up on my dog yet, but let me tell you I have to be EXTREMELY vigilant and cautious with him when it comes to people who live outside my home. I got my dog when he was 8 weeks and since day one I immediately worked on socializing him, he gets all his vet care and does not go without, again I say the trainer said we did everything right with my dog and he was born that way, but I still strongly believe there is a good dog underneath his mean exterior..it is just a matter of finding a professional who will work with him, so yes, I very strongly believe that some dogs are biologically reprogrammed to be aggressive, Aggressive dogs are not always a product of their environment.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I had never heard kennel rage described as being a deterioration of the brain either. I haven't met many dogs with kennel rage during my volunteering at the shelters but there were 2 that stuck out. One was a horrible situation. He was a Dane mix and was about 140 pounds (if I'm remembering correctly). Anyway a BIG dog and he had been at the shelter for about 6 months because everyone there was crazy about him. I was too. He was a large black dog though (black dog syndrome). Very few people adopt them. He was in a kennel (with a top) that he couldn't stand all the way up in. One day he lunged at a child walking by snarling. The next day a volunteer whom he loved. The last day- myself as I was trying to get him out for some play time and the supervisor was there. I can't even explain it- he just went crazy... Poor guy. We all cried when he was PTS.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm not finding any thing called kennel rage. Stuff on "rage syndrome" and kennel aggression (apparently sometimes called kennel rage) but nothing in association with being in a kennel, especially not as a result of the brain just deteriorating. I know dogs can suffer from lack of stimulation and interaction, but I don't think it's something that is a phsyical alteration that can't be changed.

Smalls is kennel aggressive- which means she is only aggressive when placed in a kennel. We've never been able to change this besides avoidance. Jonas, Jack, and Magpie have all suffered from their experiences but they are not randomly aggressive as a result of it and have become totally different dogs since moving into our house.


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> Because something caused the dog to end up that way. No dog is just born aggressive.




I disagree. I believe a dog can be born aggressive and crazy.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

JessieLove09 said:


> Your dogs were socialized properly am I right?SO that explains why they wouldn't attack the kids.


The two I raised from puppyhood, yes. The rescue? No. He had fear issues, had been neglected and abused. However, his basic temperament was sound (excellent pedigree and I met and became friends with his breeder), and he was never viscious, and always gentle around children and people. Once he felt secure, his reactivity and fear issues were no longer a problem to another dog, or even cats. 

My point being that the dog who attacked that child had more wrong with it than a bad owner.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

It doesn't matter WHY the dog is a lunatic. He still has no place in society, IMO.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I thought it was a discussion, too. Apparently it was viewed a different way, but I found nothing hostile.
> 
> I have to admit I have never heard the phrase kennel rage. I've heard kennel shy/aggressive, but that pertains to being aggressive when kenneled. What do they mean a dogs brain deteriorates when in the shelter too long? That sounds really far fetched to me, but I'll have to google. We've had dozens of puppy mill dogs come through the rescue- some as old as 9- and adjusted to normal life. Jonas was in a kennel for 3 years, Magpie lived in a garage for her entire life, and Jack was at the shelter for over a year. Save for Jonas (who lives a happy life regardless) they are all normal dogs.


Its the fact they are in a kennel most of the time. Not all shelter dogs have it happen top them. Mostly its the more active breeds. They don't get out as much or that much mental stimulation. The 2 dogs, they were ones became to close to(thats the problem with working at shelters). Well anyways, one was a Jindo, and those dogs are very active, the other was a Rottie, and from what I have heard and seen, Rotties are also very active dogs.


Its not the same for all dogs. Some dogs are perfectly fine.Some dogs just can't deal or cope with it. Not all dogs will suffer from it, and I don't think its rare.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

poodleholic said:


> The two I raised from puppyhood, yes. The rescue? No. He had fear issues, had been neglected and abused. However, his basic temperament was sound (excellent pedigree and I met and became friends with his breeder), and he was never viscious, and always gentle around children and people. Once he felt secure, his reactivity and fear issues were no longer a problem to another dog, or even cats.
> 
> *My point being that the dog who attacked that child had more wrong with it than a bad owner.*


The OWNER makes the dog that way. You worked with your rescue on his problems.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

sablegsd said:


> I disagree. I believe a dog can be born aggressive and crazy.


I disagree with you, to me this what some pro-BSL people would say. it all comes back to the owner or breeder. They are the ones who caused the dog to be this way. Most of the time it can be corrected.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> It doesn't matter WHY the dog is a lunatic. He still has no place in society, IMO.


It does, because if it weren't for the irresponsible owner, the dog wouldn't be aggressive. I blame the owner, not the dog under circumstances, it comes to the owner or whoever handle the dog.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

TheBearCat said:


> I feel for the mother who almost lost her child*
> 
> I feel for the child who suffered such a traumatic experience.
> 
> ...


I have tried looking for an update on this story, and nothing came up.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

JessieLove09 said:


> The OWNER makes the dog that way. You worked with your rescue on his problems.


Yes, however, his basic temperament was good, and despite what was done to him by a human, he didn't have it in him to maim, maul, or kill. As my grandma used to say, you can't make a silk purse out've a sow's ear.


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## booboo07 (Jun 16, 2010)

It is never the fault of the dog, it is always the fault of the owner no matter what. Dogs act on instinct and they have pack mentality. If you spoil your dog and don't make it clear that you're the boss, then these things are bound to happen. People think that dogs enjoy just doing what they want, but the truth is that they're happier knowing their place in the pack or in the family. It's not the fault of the pitbull that the window was open. It's not his fault that his owners didn't train or socialize him. I mean, why get a powerful breed with a powerful alpha personality if you don't even know anything about him? Part of responsible pet ownership is knowing everything about a breed before getting one. The problem is that a lot of people just want to show off that they have big strong dogs when in fact, they have no idea how to handle their pets.


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## booboo07 (Jun 16, 2010)

sablegsd said:


> I disagree. I believe a dog can be born aggressive and crazy.


I don't believe that. All aggressive dogs are also rehabitable if given time and patience. Like what the dog behaviorists say, dogs live in the NOW. They're not like people who dwell in the past. So with hard work, vicious dogs could turn into the most loving pets.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm sorry, I believe that some dogs just aren't born 'right' as are some people... I had a dog with a fairly dangerous temperament- not aggressive in this case, but fearful. It all stemmed from the fact he had no idea how to communicate. I knew his breeder, siblings, how he was raised and socialized. It was all perfect but he still had problems. I really think he had some sort of a mental handicap to be honest but there's no way to ever know. Behaviorists and vets could never tell us what was wrong with him. I was bitten by him on multiple occasions. He never would have laid into anyone like in this case but I would never have trusted him around strangers. 

I've also had a dog that was pretty DA. He ended up getting in two horrible fights with loose dogs, neither of which were our fault because our dog was contained. He was also far from abused or any of that.

It's a fallacy imo to think a dog has to be taught to be aggressive or abused to be aggressive and it's a dangerous one at that. A dog with a good temperament will not do things like this even if they are severely abused.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

booboo07 said:


> I don't believe that. All aggressive dogs are also rehabitable if given time and patience. Like what the dog behaviorists say, dogs live in the NOW. They're not like people who dwell in the past. So with hard work, vicious dogs could turn into the most loving pets.


Why on earth would you want to though? At best this dog is going to need severe managed its whole life. A) you're not going to find an owner to do this most likely, B) the liability and C) thousands of good dogs without these issues (especially pit bulls) are being put down as it is.


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## booboo07 (Jun 16, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Why on earth would you want to though? At best this dog is going to need severe managed its whole life. A) you're not going to find an owner to do this most likely, B) the liability and C) thousands of good dogs without these issues (especially pit bulls) are being put down as it is.


I'm a volunteer at an animal shelter and we rescue abused and neglected dogs, even dogs from the streets. These said dogs have very serious issues, some of them are aggressive, they have fear issues, separation anxiety, and they can even get possessive of things like their kennel or a rawhide bone. What we do is we focus on their behavioral problems and try to rehabilitate them. It is no easy task, but VERY VERY doable. And you'll be surprised how sweet and loving they could become. Once you gain their trust, everything else follows. You just have to be willing to learn and understand how they behave. Why not give these dogs a second chance? Just because there are plenty of other Pit Bulls or Rottweilers or GSD's out there doesn't mean that people have the right to euthanize every single aggressive dog that they encounter. Once a dog is rehabilitated and is given a home with a responsible owner who knows what he's doing, then I don't see any problem that could happen.


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## sukhakuli (Mar 9, 2010)

Temperament is bred into a dog, that's why different breeds are known for being very in to their people, not so in to their people etc etc. Why is it beyond the scope of imagination that a dog can be badly bred and as such inherit a bad temperament? 

My parents adopted a dog that had been badly abused and not socialized, and he was the gentlest dog I have known. He was a Chow/Collie cross. He was kind of aloof, and forget about doing any kind of training with hime because he had been beaten so often when his old owner gave him commands. But he was a well behaved fellow, and friendly to everyone who met him. Sammy never met a human he didn't like. He was just a really sweet natured guy, it was who he was, bad past or not. He died this past fall of old age, and my father still has not gotten over it. You can't blame Sammy's good nature on his previous bad owner, so what do you blame it on? He was just born that way. and conversly, if a dog can be born to be a great human companion, can't they also be born to be vicious?

And even if the kids were teasing this dog, most dogs would not react like that. If a pack of kids came at my dog with a baseball bat, he would just run away. I don't think it would ever cross his mind to bite a kid, and he certainly would never jump out of a window to bite one. So here we have a case of a probably badly bred dog, a neglectful owner, and an easily escapable situation. All a very bad combo, and unfortunately a small child and his family are the ones who suffer for it. That poor child.


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## booboo07 (Jun 16, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Why on earth would you want to though? At best this dog is going to need severe managed its whole life. A) you're not going to find an owner to do this most likely, B) the liability and C) thousands of good dogs without these issues (especially pit bulls) are being put down as it is.


Oh and let me just add that I think the reason why there are plenty of perfectly good natured dogs who get put down is because of irresponsible breeding. Shelter dogs are great pets, all three dogs of mine are rescued, one from the streets and two from a shelter and they're just as smart, just as loyal and just as loving as any other dog. So instead of buying from pet shops (wherein the puppies they sell probably come from puppy mills), why not just adopt? If people keep buying, breeders will keep breeding, thus contributing even more to the overpopulation of pets.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Adoption is GREAT but there are absolutely wonderful breeders too. I have done both adoption and buying from a breeder. I would and will do both again.
The shelters I volunteered at did not have the time nor the energy nor staff to put into rehabbing all the dogs whom came in. The time was spent saving those whom were either extremely adoptable walking in the doors and on those with slight issues that didn't include aggression. If they had focused their energy on all the aggressive dogs many, many great dogs would have been euthanized. As it was many were through no fault of their own. 
Case in point a beautiful rottweiler mix whom I came to love dearly. He was eager to please and learned so quickly. I came in daily to work with him. He had been returned twice when he went to homes where he was kept outside. He was a very velcro-y dog and didn't want to be outdoors he wanted to be with his humans. He spent much time there and I tried my hardest to get interest in him. He was WONDERFUL with all children but there was the stigma surrounding his breed mix and he did mostly look rottie. He was PTS one day when I wasn't there (at hospital with sick son). He did absolutely nothing wrong but be a rottie mix. When he was picked up he had been burnt on his face and ears with lighter fluid someone had lit. He was severly underweight and neglected, never been taught a thing in his life. Never once, however, did this change his basic temperment. Rock solid. I still cry over Saul today. 
I would rather have saved 100 of him than worked with and rehabbed 10 other aggressive dogs, whether it be bad owners or abuse that caused them to be that way. Tell me that Saul didn't have a reason to be aggressive, to hate us- the ones whom had done this to him. If dogs become aggressive because of abuse- why didn't Saul?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

There are dogs you can't wreck, dogs you can't fix, and mostly dogs in between.

I want to invest my energies in the ones on the "can't wreck" side of the scale. We're all different. I applaud everyone who is invested in doing good for animals. Everyone. But I work on the "can't wreck" end of things.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Why on earth would you want to though? At best this dog is going to need severe managed its whole life. A) you're not going to find an owner to do this most likely, B) the liability and C) thousands of good dogs without these issues (especially pit bulls) are being put down as it is.


You know, I own a dog, a basset hound mix named Moe, who is a former foster and whose aggression toward strangers are what led me to keep him. I have only had him since last September, and he has made great strides with good care, training, and carefully controlled socialization. 

His physical condition leads my vet and I to believe that he was severely neglected and likely poorly socialized from the beginning of his life. Even though he has serious issues, I believe that Moe deserves a chance at a happy life. I'm sorry, but I don't believe that I should have killed Moe just because there are better behaved dogs at the shelter.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

But how aggressive is he? Is he liable to jump out a window and maul someone? There are different levels of aggression, some can be fixed, and some cannot. 

I'm also a believer of the theory that some dogs aren't wired right.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

BrittanyG said:


> But how aggressive is he? Is he liable to jump out a window and maul someone? There are different levels of aggression, some can be fixed, and some cannot.
> 
> I'm also a believer of the theory that some dogs aren't wired right.


Took the words right out of my mouth. 

I have seen many different levels of aggression in dogs. Some I could and would work on and some- such as attacking humans- I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

BrittanyG said:


> But how aggressive is he? Is he liable to jump out a window and maul someone? There are different levels of aggression, some can be fixed, and some cannot.
> 
> I'm also a believer of the theory that some dogs aren't wired right.


Exactly. There is a big difference from a dog that would bite a stranger if cornered and one that takes out a window to get at someone. I have had a couple dogs that I know would bite and it might not even take that long to get them to the biting point. None of them would have busted out a window to attack someone. Big difference. 

There is also the fact it's very different when you already have the dog versus one sitting in the shelter. Perhaps I'm just heartless but I worked 2 years in a high kill shelter. I saw so many stable dogs put down it seems such a shame to spend those resources on the unstable ones.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I saw so many stable dogs put down it seems such a shame to spend those resources on the unstable ones.


I absolutely agree. Yes, it's sad to put any animal down. But you can't save them all. We do what we can, but I'm not afraid to step up and say "this dog would be better off dead".


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

As I was reading through these posts today I though how heartwrenching it would be for this little boys mother to read them or any others that are probably posted somewhere on the internet, of people defending and wanting to save a dog that did this to her boy .

I know as a mother I wouldnt stop until this dog was PTS why even take the chance of it happening again. And chances are its probably already gone.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Exactly. There is a big difference from a dog that would bite a stranger if cornered and one that takes out a window to get at someone. I have had a couple dogs that I know would bite and it might not even take that long to get them to the biting point. None of them would have busted out a window to attack someone. Big difference.
> 
> There is also the fact it's very different when you already have the dog versus one sitting in the shelter. Perhaps I'm just heartless but I worked 2 years in a high kill shelter. I saw so many stable dogs put down it seems such a shame to spend those resources on the unstable ones.


Moe was a pull from the kill shelter in town. I was fostering him for the rescue I volunteer with until he bit someone, and then I decided to keep him and work with him. He seemed stable in the shelter, but once he settled in, as often happens, his true personality came out. He is a big, sweet clown with us, but is very territorial and aggressive toward strangers.

As I said above, he has bitten (and he wasn't cornered). There were some extenuating circumstances regarding the bite, however, it boils down to the fact that my husband didn't listen to me and allowed him to meet the neighbor when I told him not to. Luckily, the neighbor was extremely understanding and didn't want to see anything happen to him and all that had to happen under city law was to report the bite and we had to quarantine him in our home for 10 days. It was not a bad bite, but a bite is a bite. I do not believe that Moe would ever jump out a window and maul someone, however. With a lot of training, Moe has responded very well. 

I agree that there a lot of stable dogs put down every day. I see it here all the time. However, given Moe's likely background, I felt that he could be worked with and that has proven to be true. I know that some dogs are hard cases, but I don't think that necessarily makes them less worthy to live. Some dogs just need a chance. Please note I'm not excusing what the dog in the story did; I do think that some dogs just have their hard wiring crossed and aren't right and that could be the case in that situation.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

poodleholic said:


> Yes, however, his basic temperament was good, and despite what was done to him by a human, he didn't have it in him to maim, maul, or kill. As my grandma used to say, you can't make a silk purse out've a sow's ear.


Because you gave the chance. You dedicated time to train, and help him, and the fact he had a nice temperament helped him with his problems. 

But not all dogs will come with the nice temperament, and will need extra time, patience, training, and love to be a good dog.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

brandiw said:


> Moe was a pull from the kill shelter in town. I was fostering him for the rescue I volunteer with until he bit someone, and then I decided to keep him and work with him. He seemed stable in the shelter, but once he settled in, as often happens, his true personality came out. He is a big, sweet clown with us, but is very territorial and aggressive toward strangers.
> 
> As I said above, he has bitten (and he wasn't cornered). There were some extenuating circumstances regarding the bite, however, it boils down to the fact that my husband didn't listen to me and allowed him to meet the neighbor when I told him not to. Luckily, the neighbor was extremely understanding and didn't want to see anything happen to him and all that had to happen under city law was to report the bite and we had to quarantine him in our home for 10 days. It was not a bad bite, but a bite is a bite. I do not believe that Moe would ever jump out a window and maul someone, however. With a lot of training, Moe has responded very well.
> 
> I agree that there a lot of stable dogs put down every day. I see it here all the time. However, given Moe's likely background, I felt that he could be worked with and that has proven to be true. *I know that some dogs are hard cases, but I don't think that necessarily makes them less worthy to live. Some dogs just need a chance. * Please note I'm not excusing what the dog in the story did; I do think that some dogs just have their hard wiring crossed and aren't right and that could be the case in that situation.


I agree with everything you said. What caused some dogs to not be wired right? The owner or bad breeder.

I couldn't agree more. We are not saying that the dog should be kept alive no matter what, but ehtunization should be a last resort.

I was watching Animal Cops once, and they had to go get these dogs that were abused and neglected. The brought the dogs in, and gave the medical care, they needed. Some had to be completely sedated for the vet to do anything because the dog was too aggressive or too scared. After the medical stuff was done, they evaluated each dog. Some were easy to train and work with, some were shy, but with work and dedication they were able to be adopted. Some were aggressive, but the trainers, behaviorists, vets, did everything they could to help these dogs, all but one were able to be rehabilitated. Some of the dogs had to be put into foster homes, but were eventually adopted. The one they had to put to sleep was too aggressive. But they saved ethunization as a last resort, because they wanted to at least try and rehabilitate the dog so it can have a second chance at life. Sadly, the dog was to abused and neglected to be rehabilitated, so they knew the next best thing was to put him to sleep. 

All dogs deserve a chance at good life and none are less worthy for life.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> As I was reading through these posts today I though how heartwrenching it would be for this little boys mother to read them or any others that are probably posted somewhere on the internet, of people defending and wanting to save a dog that did this to her boy .
> 
> I know as a mother I wouldnt stop until this dog was PTS why even take the chance of it happening again. And chances are its probably already gone.


Because its not the dogs fault. I think everyone here can agree it wasn't the boys fault or the moms fault this happened to them, it was the owner of the dog who couldn't control or contain his dog.

Its sad for anyone to be bitten by a dog, especially a child. No one is saying the kid deserved what he got or that the mom deserved for kid to be bitten by a dog.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

It's disgusting that people value this dog over the potential lives and safety of other human beings.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> It's disgusting that people value this dog over the potential lives and safety of other human beings.



Its disgusting you would call a dog a POS.Thats degrading and rude and especially when its not the dog's fault.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> I agree with everything you said. What caused some dogs to not be wired right? The owner or bad breeder.
> 
> Quick question- If anyone believes that bad breedings can cause dogs with bad temperments/aggression how can one also believe that dogs aren't born not wired right? This, to me, is a bit confusing.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy- I never blame the dog. Because if the dog isn't wired right it is a result of a not a good breeding(a breeding that a responsible breeder thought would be a good one) a result of a bad breeder or puppy mill.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

MooMoosMommy, that's what I was thinking.

Hmmm, you're clearly not a mother. Any dog that attacked my child would be called way worse than a piece of sh*t. It's not a matter of fault. Of course it's not the dog's fault. It's not an ugly dog's fault he's ugly either, or a fat dog's fault he's fat. 

I routinely hear the phrase, "What a POS" whispered at dog shows, occasionally about my own dogs, and especially after they win. You know what they say about opinions...

Dogs don't care what you call 'em  This dog needs to be called "Dead" though. At the risk of simply being a broken record, WHY would anyone try to save a dog or even WANT a dog that has mauled a child almost to death? Would you keep nuclear bombs in your basement and hope they never went off? Would you just ignore a rattle snake in your bathroom because, well, it's not his fault he's deadly venomous (BTW I love snakes and own them). Would you invite Charles Manson for dinner on a cold, rainy night because it's not his fault he's a mad-man? He had a very horrible childhood and upbringing.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I don't blame the dog either. I'm not BLAMING the dog. I'm simply saying there are dogs that are not worth saving. This is one of them.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I don't blame the dog either. I have never laid blame on the dog. The point I am making is this: If dogs aren't capable of being not wired right then why even have to go to good ethical breeders whom put temperment and health as utmost consideration when breeding? If dogs are never 'mentally ill' then why even worry about temperments to begin with? 
Good breeders strive to produce dogs without temperment issues. Bad breeders throw 2 'tough' dogs together and sell to the highest bidder. Those 'tough' dogs, IMO, are often from bad breedings themselves and have HORRID temperments.
If this all isn't true then why even bother directing people to good breeders whom put temperment high on their priority list?


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Exactly, just because a dog can be born with a shit temperament, doesn't mean we BLAME the dog. But he is what he is.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> MooMoosMommy, that's what I was thinking.
> 
> Hmmm, you're clearly not a mother. Any dog that attacked my child would be called way worse than a piece of sh*t. It's not a matter of fault. Of course it's not the dog's fault. It's not an ugly dog's fault he's ugly either, or a fat dog's fault he's fat.
> 
> ...


I work with people at a shelter who are moms and agree with me. I also don't compare humans to dogs on many things.

You ask why would anyone want to save a dog that mauled a kid?Ask the people who saved Vick's dogs. Ask shelters why they save any dog, when half of them, if not most are in deed aggressive towards humans and dogs, but they try to save a dog and give it a home.

I know about Charles Manson, he had the choice to get help if he needed to help cope with his abuse as a child, but he didn't, he decided to kill. Bring up bombs? I am not stupid, someone near me had illegal fireworks in their garage and they eventually blew up the house. My aunt lives in area where rattlesnakes where she lives, if any got into her house she would call the Animal Control to take care of the situation.I really don't see your point on the snake part.

Calling a dog a POS seems mean and degrading, and I wouldn't someone calling my dog a POS at a dog show. Calling a dog a mutt is different, because someone dog is a mutt.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't blame the dog either. I have never laid blame on the dog. The point I am making is this: If dogs aren't capable of being not wired right then why even have to go to good ethical breeders whom put temperment and health as utmost consideration when breeding? If dogs are never 'mentally ill' then why even worry about temperments to begin with?
> *Good breeders strive to produce dogs without temperment issues. * Bad breeders throw 2 'tough' dogs together and sell to the highest bidder. *Those 'tough' dogs, IMO, are often from bad breedings themselves and have HORRID temperments.*
> If this all isn't true then why even bother directing people to good breeders whom put temperment high on their priority list?


Wonderful breeders make mistakes. They dogs they breed may have a great temperament, but if the breeding's result didn't work out, why breed those 2 dogs again?

The "tough" dog breeders shouldn't be breeding anyways. No one is saying stay away from them. Just if you 2 dogs who have an excellent pedigree, are health tested and titled have a litter but 1 or 2 of the pups has bad temperament, then why breed those 2 dogs again?

I know there many GOOD breeders who work very hard to produce great pups and have the great dogs to produce them.But don't breeders buy back puppies if they have something wrong with them? There is a reason they buy them back?Probably something went wrong in the breeding, or the socialization of the puppy.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> I work with people at a shelter who are moms and agree with me. I also don't compare humans to dogs on many things.
> 
> You ask why would anyone want to save a dog that mauled a kid?Ask the people who saved Vick's dogs. Ask shelters why they save any dog, when _half of them, if not most are in deed aggressive towards humans and dogs, but they try to save a dog and give it a home._
> 
> ...


Now, this I disagree with. Of all the dogs that the rescue I volunteer with has pulled over the years, only two have had aggression issues: my dog Moe and a corgi mix that HAD to be euthanized. I hate to see the myth perpetuated that most shelter dogs have something wrong with them. For most of them, the only thing they had wrong with them is that they had the misfortune to end up with crappy owners.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

The reason I am so passionate about this issue is this: I told you all about Saul, the rottie mix earlier in this thread but didn't tell you the ending totally. This is also the reason I couldn't volunteer there anymore.
Saul was, as I said, a absolutely WONDERFUL dog. The reason he was PTS that day was because a Chocolate Labrador had been turned in and the space on the floor was wanted for her. She was a beauty but the real kicker was this- extremely food aggressive and was a guarder of 'her' domain and possessions. When I asked why, I was given this answer: "The Rottweiler wasn't going to get adopted. The Chocolate Lab is highly desired so someone will be willing to work with her on her problems."
I think my jaw hit the ground.... It was bad enough that he had been put down. Bad enough if he had been put down for another highly adoptable dog. But for this dog! I left and never returned.
Another volunteer whom I had become friends with ran into me at the store about a month later and we began talking. I asked about some of the dogs that had been there and we got on the subject of the Lab. She told me that 2 weeks after I left she had bitten a potential adopter on the thigh when she reached to pet her. She was then PTS also.
Saul died for that.... It makes me sick to my stomach to even think/talk about it now. I wish my situation had been different then but it's all too late now. 

This is Sauls story. It is also the story of many, many shelter animals whom die due to lack of space and sometimes IMO politics. Saul didn't deserve to die so that the Lab could live. Saul deserved and earned his spot. He deserved every chance to live a happy life. I hear so many say that about aggressive dogs. Did Saul not deserve to live a happy life also? Honestly can you think about this situation and say that the Lab deserved to live more than Saul did?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> Exactly, just because a dog can be born with a shit temperament, doesn't mean we BLAME the dog. But he is what he is.


I never said you blamed the dog, I just don't think calling ANY dog for ANY reason a POS is necessary.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

brandiw said:


> Now, this I disagree with. Of all the dogs that the rescue I volunteer with has pulled over the years, only two have had aggression issues: my dog Moe and a corgi mix that HAD to be euthanized. I hate to see the myth perpetuated that most shelter dogs have something wrong with them. For most of them, the only thing they had wrong with them is that they had the misfortune to end up with crappy owners.


I volunteer at a shelter too. I don't if its the same way you were involved with, but some of the dogs, BEFORE they were put up for adoption, were aggressive towards humans, aggressive towards dogs, shy or nervous. Thats what I meant.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Actually most good breeders that I have known will take back the dogs/pups they produce just for the sole purpose of keeping their much loved breed and their dogs out of shelters. They love the breed enough to not want any of theirs to be PTS.
I do agree that mistakes occur and sometimes dogs from good breeders can have problems. Just as 2 perfectly healthy people can have a baby with health problems. It happens.
The point is this: In one breath I see this: No dog is born mentally unsound. Next breath: Could it be bad breeding? This to me all says temperment, mental soundness.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> The reason I am so passionate about this issue is this: I told you all about Saul, the rottie mix earlier in this thread but didn't tell you the ending totally. This is also the reason I couldn't volunteer there anymore.
> Saul was, as I said, a absolutely WONDERFUL dog. The reason he was PTS that day was because a Chocolate Labrador had been turned in and the space on the floor was wanted for her. She was a beauty but the real kicker was this- extremely food aggressive and was a guarder of 'her' domain and possessions. When I asked why, I was given this answer: "The Rottweiler wasn't going to get adopted. The Chocolate Lab is highly desired so someone will be willing to work with her on her problems."
> I think my jaw hit the ground.... It was bad enough that he had been put down. Bad enough if he had been put down for another highly adoptable dog. But for this dog! I left and never returned.
> Another volunteer whom I had become friends with ran into me at the store about a month later and we began talking. I asked about some of the dogs that had been there and we got on the subject of the Lab. She told me that 2 weeks after I left she had bitten a potential adopter on the thigh when she reached to pet her. She was then PTS also.
> ...


Of course I think that they both deserved a chance and I'm sorry that Saul didn't get his. I know it is heartbreaking. My rescue group goes in and typically takes the ones that won't get adopted at the shelter and that other rescues aren't interested in taking. We take a lot of pits, rotties, black dogs, hounds (don't get adopted around here) and mutts and sometimes we even take ones with issues so everyone gets their best chance. I think that is all we can do.

I don't know what your municipal shelter is like, but I can't imagine my local shelter putting that lab up for adoption. If they even begin to think that a dog is aggressive, they will only release to rescue or euthanize.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Most of the dogs that came in the shelters I have volunteered at weren't aggressive either Brandiw. Most were discarded by ignorant, uncaring owners whom just didn't want the hassle anymore. The aggressive ones were few compared to the vast numbers we saw go in and out.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> The reason I am so passionate about this issue is this: I told you all about Saul, the rottie mix earlier in this thread but didn't tell you the ending totally. This is also the reason I couldn't volunteer there anymore.
> Saul was, as I said, a absolutely WONDERFUL dog. The reason he was PTS that day was because a Chocolate Labrador had been turned in and the space on the floor was wanted for her. She was a beauty but the real kicker was this- extremely food aggressive and was a guarder of 'her' domain and possessions. When I asked why, I was given this answer: "The Rottweiler wasn't going to get adopted. The Chocolate Lab is highly desired so someone will be willing to work with her on her problems."
> I think my jaw hit the ground.... It was bad enough that he had been put down. Bad enough if he had been put down for another highly adoptable dog. But for this dog! I left and never returned.
> Another volunteer whom I had become friends with ran into me at the store about a month later and we began talking. I asked about some of the dogs that had been there and we got on the subject of the Lab. She told me that 2 weeks after I left she had bitten a potential adopter on the thigh when she reached to pet her. She was then PTS also.
> ...


I am in deed passionate about this too. At my shelter, we try to give every dog a chance to live and have a happy life regardless of breed.(93% adoption rate.) Saul in deed to deserved to live and be adopted to live a happy life. I think the shelter could have done more, like ask any breed specific rescues or other shelters who had the room, the time, patience. Also they could have asked for a foster home. The Lab needed to be taken into a foster home or something to have the issues worked out, then given up for adoption. But I see the shelter failed to do that.

Some shelters are just plain ignorant, rude and just crazy based on what I have heard from other people. It also depends on where you live. But the excuse the shelter gave you is ridiculous.

I think all dogs deserve a second chance, there are many people who will take the dog in and help the dog.

I am trying to find an updated version of this story, but I can't find it.


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## kpollard (Aug 3, 2008)

Comparing this dog to Michael Vick's dogs is a gross injustice to Michael Vick's dogs. They did not show much, if any, aggression towards humans while this dog came through a window to get at them.

I agree that this dog should be PTS and I do not say that lightly. 

And, for the record, yes 2 dogs with good temperaments can create a puppy with an unstable temperament. However, very good breeders will have to make heart wrenching decisions. Is it easy? No. Does it happen? Yes.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> I volunteer at a shelter too. I don't if its the same way you were involved with, but some of the dogs, BEFORE they were put up for adoption, were aggressive towards humans, aggressive towards dogs, shy or nervous. Thats what I meant.


Members of our rescue go in and check out the dogs on a weekly basis. We get to see all of them, even the ones the shelter feels are unadoptable. Most of the dogs are friendly, some are withdrawn or kennel crazy due to the stress, noise, lack of exercise, etc., but very few exhibit aggression. Of course, of the few that do, they generally are euthanized fairly quickly unless a rescue will speak up for them. I still find that the aggressive ones are in the minority. I find that the issues usually pop up later, once they are settled into a home anyway. We have found only mild, easy to work with issues, mostly. That is what foster care is all about, finding out and working with their quirks so they are an adoptable dog for the average dog owner.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

brandiw said:


> Of course I think that they both deserved a chance and I'm sorry that Saul didn't get his. I know it is heartbreaking. My rescue group goes in and typically takes the ones that won't get adopted at the shelter and that other rescues aren't interested in taking. We take a lot of pits, rotties, black dogs, hounds (don't get adopted around here) and mutts and sometimes we even take ones with issues so everyone gets their best chance. I think that is all we can do.
> 
> I don't know what your municipal shelter is like, but I can't imagine my local shelter putting that lab up for adoption. If they even begin to think that a dog is aggressive, they will only release to rescue or euthanize.


My shelter does the same. We get alot of pits, rotties, dobies, GSDs(We have been getting alof of GSDs lately.) We also get alot of Labs, and Lab/Pit mixes. My shelter has 2 facilities, one in LA and the other in Hawethorne. THe Hawethorne is smaller so if they don't have room or run out of room, they send it to the LA one or to a rescue.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Very heartbreaking Brandi. I tried to not get too attached/involved with individual dogs but that big lug stole my heart. I wish I had been able to get him out of there. He was just special. The funny thing I did notice is that each volunteer I ran into had their own 'Saul'. One lady, in particular, had a thing for the 'ugly' dogs. Lol. I used to laugh at and with her, gushing over these little mutants and telling them how beautiful they were. Those dogs got such a confidence boost from a few minutes with her- it was amazing the transformation that took place from within them! Strutting past all the kennels, heads held high. It's no wonder most of those dogs got adopted. 
I don't want anyone to think I'm not for rehabbing dogs with issues. That isn't the case at all. I would have gladly spent everything I had to 'cure' Gus, my rotten one to help him. I just can't see putting all the time and effort into rehabbing an animal that has attacked when so many other perfectly good dogs are dying while waiting for homes.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

kpollard said:


> *Comparing this dog to Michael Vick's dogs is a gross injustice to Michael Vick's dogs. They did not show much, if any, aggression towards humans while this dog came through a window to get at them.*
> 
> I agree that this dog should be PTS and I do not say that lightly.
> 
> And, for the record, yes 2 dogs with good temperaments can create a puppy with an unstable temperament. However, very good breeders will have to make heart wrenching decisions. Is it easy? No. Does it happen? Yes.


He kept them as fighting dogs. Many were taken in but most were in deed pts, because they were deemed to aggressive.

I don't why, but alot of this story seems off, biased, and too much exaggeration just like some were saying.


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## kpollard (Aug 3, 2008)

Most? 1 out of 49 is most?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/07/06/ST2008070602429.html


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Most of the dogs that came in the shelters I have volunteered at weren't aggressive either Brandiw. Most were discarded by ignorant, uncaring owners whom just didn't want the hassle anymore. The aggressive ones were few compared to the vast numbers we saw go in and out.


It is so sad, isn't it? There are so many good dogs in the shelter system and many people just don't realize it. I am starting to get extremely burned out because of stories like Saul's. I have been able to keep going because I feel like we make a difference, but it is extremely hard to see perfectly wonderful animals killed for no good reason day after day.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Very heartbreaking Brandi. I tried to not get too attached/involved with individual dogs but that big lug stole my heart. I wish I had been able to get him out of there. He was just special. The funny thing I did notice is that each volunteer I ran into had their own 'Saul'. One lady, in particular, had a thing for the 'ugly' dogs. Lol. I used to laugh at and with her, gushing over these little mutants and telling them how beautiful they were. Those dogs got such a confidence boost from a few minutes with her- it was amazing the transformation that took place from within them! Strutting past all the kennels, heads held high. It's no wonder most of those dogs got adopted.
> I don't want anyone to think I'm not for rehabbing dogs with issues. That isn't the case at all. I would have gladly spent everything I had to 'cure' Gus, my rotten one to help him. *I just can't see putting all the time and effort into rehabbing an animal that has attacked when so many other perfectly good dogs are dying while waiting for homes.*



Know whats weird, I also got attached to a Rottie at my shelter. Her name was Aspen, 8 months old. She was sooo sweet!!I wanted to take her home, but my family's insurance won't allow Rotties.Many people thought she was too beautiful to be in a shelter.

As for your last part there are some Dog Rehabilitation Centers who do this.I googled it. Since this took place in California(where I am) they may or may not send the dog there. Its just like with good breeders, they will do anything to keep their dog out of shelters and from being put to sleep because they love the breed so much, these dog rehabilitation centers love the dogs so much thats why they want to save them and they think they are worth saving.

I am not saying that ethunization is bad or anything. If a dog is suffering from a very very bad medical problem, then I would want to have the dog pts. If after all the training and socialization or rehab doesn't help the dog, then I would want the dog pts.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

kpollard said:


> Most 1 out of 49 is most?
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/07/06/ST2008070602429.html


I don't read the Washington post, let alone I don't even live in Washington. Last I heard some of the dogs they seized were aggressive, and there was more than 49.

But I am not going to get into that, thats for another thread.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I always say there is something about a good Rottie. I can't wait til I am able to have one again. Maybe I will look for a 'Saul' at a shelter again.

Brandi, It is so very hard to work/volunteer at shelters. It indeed took an emotional toll on me at times. Other times when I took a dog I had helped learn basic obedience and showed it to families and they loved and adopted that dog- Wow! What an adrenaline rush! No 'high' in the world could compare to that for me! I was the proudest 'mama' in the world when they found their place.
Next year after my daughter is a little older and we hopefully have some of my sons' issues under control I will once again be able to volunteer and at least bring a smile to those big, sweet faces again. 
I wish more people volunteered, even an hour or 2 a week makes all the difference to these animals. We used to have a lady who came and sat in the cats room once a week and just read a book while petting and talking to the kittys. She did the same in the kittens room. It didn't take much effort and sure made the kittys happy.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

I have not read all the replies to this post, so I apoligize if someone has already said this.

I have a 3 year old little boy who is usually VERY good with dogs, but hes 3...he has his moments. And being a parent, he is my number one priority. He has "provoked" our dogs at times (they have never been agressive torwards him, ever, they just get irritated and walk away)....trying to give bear hugs, grabbing tails, ears, etc. I correct his behavior and teach him boundaries, but at times a child will be a child. I would never defend his behavior and say he was totally in the right if he pushed a dog too far, but all that being said....my childs life is far and beyond more important than any dogs life. I LOVE dogs. I LOVE animals. And I know that there are a LOT of bad owners out there and their pets dont even have a chance. Its sad. Very, very sad. But once a dog is agressive like that with a kid....I dont think I could ever trust it again, EVER. It would pain my heart to see the dog put down, but the chance that it could EVER happen ever again is far to great to for me personally. I know there are homes out there that will do amazing jobs of rehabbing these kinds of dogs, but there are not enough of them.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I mention those things because they are all deadly dangerous things that would be foolish to have in your home- much like this dog.

How many of Vick's dogs ate children?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Amy_PRT said:


> I have not read all the replies to this post, so I apoligize if someone has already said this.
> 
> I have a 3 year old little boy who is usually VERY good with dogs, but hes 3...he has his moments. And being a parent, he is my number one priority. He has "provoked" our dogs at times (they have never been agressive torwards him, ever, they just get irritated and walk away)....trying to give bear hugs, grabbing tails, ears, etc. I correct his behavior and teach him boundaries, but at times a child will be a child. I would never defend his behavior and say he was totally in the right if he pushed a dog too far, but all that being said....my childs life is far and beyond more important than any dogs life. I LOVE dogs. I LOVE animals. And I know that there are a LOT of bad owners out there and their pets dont even have a chance. Its sad. Very, very sad. But once a dog is agressive like that with a kid....I dont think I could ever trust it again, EVER. It would pain my heart to see the dog put down, but the chance that it could EVER happen ever again is far to great to for me personally. I know there are homes out there that will do amazing jobs of rehabbing these kinds of dogs, but there are not enough of them.


I don't condone what the dog at all, but the cause of it is of the owner. 

There are quite a few dog rehab centers here in Cali(which is where this attack took place.)


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I don't foster most breeds because they don't get adopted. I don't like little dogs enough to want one in my house (though they are adoptable), and of the larger breeds, only Goldens and German Shepherds get adopted in good rates in my experience. It is sad, but true, that a problem Golden has a much great shot at getting saved than the nicest pit, Rottie, hound, cur, or mixed breed. That's super sad about Saul, and is my point here, basically.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

And still, what is the point of keeping a dog alive that is likely to kill or disfigure a human being? That has yet to be answered.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> I mention those things because they are all deadly dangerous things that would be foolish to have in your home- much like this dog.
> 
> How many of Vick's dogs ate children?


This dog didn't eat the child. His dogs would have been deemed vicious and been put to sleep, but some people thought otherwise and decided to take a chance on those dogs to help them and they did and the dogs were able to be adopted.

I also know people who own snakes, if a snake is your house would call animal control. Mr. Mason is in prison, last I heard, he is sharing a cell block or something with a Sex Offender who was just sentenced to life in prison.I don't expect him to come out soon.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> And still, what is the point of keeping a dog alive that is likely to kill or disfigure a human being? That has yet to be answered.


The dog deserves the chance at being able to see the love and kindness a human being can give it.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I always say there is something about a good Rottie. I can't wait til I am able to have one again. Maybe I will look for a 'Saul' at a shelter again.
> 
> Brandi, It is so very hard to work/volunteer at shelters. It indeed took an emotional toll on me at times. Other times when I took a dog I had helped learn basic obedience and showed it to families and they loved and adopted that dog- Wow! What an adrenaline rush! No 'high' in the world could compare to that for me! I was the proudest 'mama' in the world when they found their place.
> Next year after my daughter is a little older and we hopefully have some of my sons' issues under control I will once again be able to volunteer and at least bring a smile to those big, sweet faces again.
> I wish more people volunteered, even an hour or 2 a week makes all the difference to these animals. We used to have a lady who came and sat in the cats room once a week and just read a book while petting and talking to the kittys. She did the same in the kittens room. It didn't take much effort and sure made the kittys happy.


I cried when Aspen was put to sleep. Kyle a Jindo was also put to sleep, I was attached to him, not only because he had my cousin's name, but he was beautiful and sweet he was 1 year old.

There was Rottie, named Nellie, she was scared and hated men, that if any man came to close she would growl, and if the man persisted she would snap. There is a staff member, who was a man, took the time and patience to work with her to help her overcome her fear of men and eventually she was adopted by a family that had a teenage son, and a grown man(the husband) in the family.

My neighbor had a Rottie named Kitty.lol.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Foyerhawk said:


> And still, what is the point of keeping a dog alive that is likely to kill or disfigure a human being? That has yet to be answered.



I posted earlier in this thread stating that if my dogs ever did something like that, I would indeed euthanize them. That said, I have also had dogs come into rescue with a bite history that I believed were well worth saving. I believed that in a different home, and with some training, the dog would be completely safe. That proved correct in each of the circumstances I am thinking of.

I also believe however, that there is such limited funding in shelters and rescues that to spend tons of money trying to rehabilitate a dog that is that aggressive and worse, you would have difficulty finding a good home for once it was rehabilitate, is silly. This dog had a rough go, and I feel very very bad for it. I also feel very bad for the other millions of dogs that are euthanized every single year in the US through no fault of their own. 

In the perfect world every dog would have a great home, there would never be a need for euthanasia due to lack of homes and crap owners wouldn't even exist but we don't live in that world. For the safety of the community, I stand by my original opinion that this dog should be put to sleep humanely. That is of course assuming the story is true in the first place.

As far as dogs not being wired right... I have seen a 14 week old puppy that literally went nuts trying to go after another dog. It was bred to fight, and it knew what it was supposed to do. That same dog had skin issues and a luxating patella. I was the one to make the decision to put him to sleep. It still makes me sad. It was a cute, rolly polly 14 week old pup that had the right home been available could probably lived a nice life. The "right home" was no where to be seen. Most folks are not equipped or willing to take on a dog like that. The ones that are, have no shortage of dogs in need already.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> I don't condone what the dog at all, but the cause of it is of the owner.
> 
> There are quite a few dog rehab centers here in Cali(which is where this attack took place.)


I dont think I have read anything where anyone was defending the dogs actions per say. But regardless, I dont think I would ever trust the dog around children. Even after a rehab stay. I do NOT think that all dogs who have shown agressive behavior need to be put down. A very good friend of mine has a 4 year old Beagle mix. She is amazing. Super sweet, a total love bug, just a real wonderful dog to be around. If you are an adult. He has had her since she was a puppy, raised her right, she never was abused. She was just never around kids. And little children with their high pitched voices, quick movements, etc....its just too much for her. I cant blame her, I dont think its her fault, I dont think its her owners fault. It is what it is. But one day while my friend was out of town the people who were caring for her while he was away brought a child over (knowing how she is), child went to hug her and wham...the kid was bit in the face. No stiches needed, the kid was fine after hugs from his parent. But I would NEVER, EVER trust her around kids. I dont think that she would jump out of a window and attack kids, but quite possibly the dog who attacked that child only needed kids playing outside of the window to push his buttons. Maybe the owner was some idiot and abused him. Who knows. But a dog like that does not need to be around children. Ever. If he can go to a home with an experienced owner, great. If not, he is better off being put down.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Amy_PRT said:


> *I dont think I have read anything where anyone was defending the dogs actions per say.* But regardless, I dont think I would ever trust the dog around children. Even after a rehab stay. I do NOT think that all dogs who have shown agressive behavior need to be put down. A very good friend of mine has a 4 year old Beagle mix. She is amazing. Super sweet, a total love bug, just a real wonderful dog to be around. If you are an adult. He has had her since she was a puppy, raised her right, she never was abused. She was just never around kids. And little children with their high pitched voices, quick movements, etc....its just too much for her. I cant blame her, I dont think its her fault, I dont think its her owners fault. It is what it is. But one day while my friend was out of town the people who were caring for her while he was away brought a child over (knowing how she is), child went to hug her and wham...the kid was bit in the face. No stiches needed, the kid was fine after hugs from his parent. But I would NEVER, EVER trust her around kids. I dont think that she would jump out of a window and attack kids, but quite possibly the dog who attacked that child only needed kids playing outside of the window to push his buttons. Maybe the owner was some idiot and abused him. Who knows. But a dog like that does not need to be around children. Ever. If he can go to a home with an experienced owner, great. If not, he is better off being put down.


Some people we saying its sad we were defending the dog, when we were just saying the dog should be given a second chance. 

Yes, if a dog is not good with kids, then it should be placed in a CHILD-FREE home.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I always say there is something about a good Rottie. I can't wait til I am able to have one again. Maybe I will look for a 'Saul' at a shelter again.
> 
> Brandi, It is so very hard to work/volunteer at shelters. It indeed took an emotional toll on me at times. Other times when I took a dog I had helped learn basic obedience and showed it to families and they loved and adopted that dog- Wow! What an adrenaline rush! No 'high' in the world could compare to that for me! I was the proudest 'mama' in the world when they found their place.
> Next year after my daughter is a little older and we hopefully have some of my sons' issues under control I will once again be able to volunteer and at least bring a smile to those big, sweet faces again.
> I wish more people volunteered, even an hour or 2 a week makes all the difference to these animals. We used to have a lady who came and sat in the cats room once a week and just read a book while petting and talking to the kittys. She did the same in the kittens room. It didn't take much effort and sure made the kittys happy.


It is hard, especially now that I can't take any to foster. I feel like I'm not doing enough, but, with Moe's issues, I don't feel like I could effectively handle another dog. I hope that you do find your "Saul" when you are ready!


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> Some people we saying its sad we were defending the dog, when we were just saying the dog should be given a second chance.
> 
> Yes, if a dog is not good with kids, then it should be placed in a CHILD-FREE home.


I think its hard for some people to want to take the chance that it will ever happen again. Being a parent, if that dog put my child in the ICU I would have a really hard time not wanting it put down, and I understand why a lot of people feel that a dog that will harm a child (or anyone for that matter) that badly needs to be put to sleep. But I also understand why people would say to give the dog a chance with experienced handlers and see what could possibly be done to change his behavior. 

The owner of that dogs needs to be investigated and punished if there was any abuse to that animal.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Amy_PRT said:


> I think its hard for some people to want to take the chance that it will ever happen again. Being a parent, if that dog put my child in the ICU I would have a really hard time not wanting it put down, and I understand why a lot of people feel that a dog that will harm a child (or anyone for that matter) that badly needs to be put to sleep. But I also understand why people would say to give the dog a chance with experienced handlers and see what could possibly be done to change his behavior.
> 
> The owner of that dogs needs to be investigated and punished if there was any abuse to that animal.


Yes the owner should be punished. Know what sucks? The punishment they receive it is very minimal.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

My issue with "child free home" dogs is that it isn't a child-free world. Let's face it, most likely, this particular pit bull WAS from a child free home, guessing on its lack of socialization and over-the-top response to kids playing.

There are kids everywhere. This particular dog mauled a child that wasn't part of its household.

In my world, I don't invest in dogs that can't handle some level of interaction with children.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> Yes the owner should be punished. Know what sucks? The punishment they receive it is very minimal.


Yeah, most people get slaps on the wrist.....if they even get slapped at all.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> My issue with "child free home" dogs is that it isn't a child-free world. Let's face it, most likely, this particular pit bull WAS from a child free home, guessing on its lack of socialization and over-the-top response to kids playing.
> 
> There are kids everywhere. This particular dog mauled a child that wasn't part of its household.
> 
> In my world, I don't invest in dogs that can't handle some level of interaction with children.


Very good point.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

From what the witnesses said it wasnt just aggressive with children, it was everyone...I am guessing you cant do much with a dog that wants to attack everyone but its owner???


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I just can't see putting all the time and effort into rehabbing an animal that has attacked when so many other perfectly good dogs are dying while waiting for homes.


Just because there are good dogs killed every day for lack of resources (homes, money, space, etc.) doesn't mean less-than-perfect dogs do not deserve a chance. The fact that any dog anywhere is killed for any other reason than a mercy killing should make us sick. Fighting mad. Outraged. It shouldn't make us think that any dog that isn't perfect should be killed just because there are better dogs being killed. 

I think we as dog lovers need to develop a better sense of outrage. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing good dogs. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing ANY dogs, unless they're TRULY beyond saving.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Just because there are good dogs killed every day for lack of resources (homes, money, space, etc.) doesn't mean less-than-perfect dogs do not deserve a chance. The fact that any dog anywhere is killed for any other reason than a mercy killing should make us sick. Fighting mad. Outraged. It shouldn't make us think that any dog that isn't perfect should be killed just because there are better dogs being killed.
> 
> I think we as dog lovers need to develop a better sense of outrage. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing good dogs. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing ANY dogs, unless they're TRULY beyond saving.


No its not ok that dogs are being killed. But I would rather put my resources torwards a dog that has not ripped off some 5 year olds face. Or put my resources torwards spaying and neutering so shelters are not overflowing. Cause when it comes down to it, good dog or bad....there are not enough homes for them all. It sucks, really bad, that dogs/cats/etc are suffering and being killed because of idiots who dont give a sh!t, but stopping all euthanasia is not gonna happen. And its not the answer either.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Just because there are good dogs killed every day for lack of resources (homes, money, space, etc.) doesn't mean less-than-perfect dogs do not deserve a chance. The fact that any dog anywhere is killed for any other reason than a mercy killing should make us sick. Fighting mad. Outraged. It shouldn't make us think that any dog that isn't perfect should be killed just because there are better dogs being killed.
> 
> I think we as dog lovers need to develop a better sense of outrage. *It is NOT OK that shelters are killing good dogs. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing ANY dogs, unless they're TRULY beyond saving.*


I agree 100%. If the dog truly cannot be trained at all after trying everything humanely possible to help the dog, or if the dog is severly injured or sick, then yes ethunization is the only other humane way to go.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> From what the witnesses said it wasnt just aggressive with children, it was everyone...I am guessing you cant do much with a dog that wants to attack everyone but its owner???


Obviously the owner more than likely abused this dog or kept it as a dog for intimidation or worse.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> My issue with "child free home" dogs is that it isn't a child-free world. Let's face it, most likely, this particular pit bull WAS from a child free home, guessing on its lack of socialization and over-the-top response to kids playing.
> 
> There are kids everywhere. This particular dog mauled a child that wasn't part of its household.
> 
> In my world, I don't invest in dogs that can't handle some level of interaction with children.


Yes there are kids everywhere, but when I say the dog should go to a child free home is if the people who get the dog probably are a middle aged couple who live in the country or someplace where there aren't many kids running around.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> Obviously the owner more than likely abused this dog or kept it as a dog for intimidation or worse.


I wouldnt doubt it but what I am meaning is it sounds like this particular dog was aggressive with everyone not just kids. Its not like it just nipped or bit the kid and can be rehabilitated and placed in a child free home. This dog mauled the kid and probably would have done the same to any human who it came across (from what the witnesses said) Whether the dog was abused, trained to be like this, unsocialied etc...I dont think it should have a place in society.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Just because there are good dogs killed every day for lack of resources (homes, money, space, etc.) doesn't mean less-than-perfect dogs do not deserve a chance. The fact that any dog anywhere is killed for any other reason than a mercy killing should make us sick. Fighting mad. Outraged. It shouldn't make us think that any dog that isn't perfect should be killed just because there are better dogs being killed.
> 
> I think we as dog lovers need to develop a better sense of outrage. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing good dogs. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing ANY dogs, unless they're TRULY beyond saving.


I am sickened that perfectly healthy and otherwise sound dogs/cats are PTS daily in the US. I have plehty of outrage that BYBS are doing their best to populate an already overpopulated world with dogs. 
I, like another said. would much rather see money and time spent on animals that need spaying/neutering and those whom are adoptable first. I am not against helping a dog whom has issues as long as those don't include dogs whom jump out a window to attack and those whom maim and even worse kill an innocent person.
I think we have too much trouble finding responsible owners as it is for dogs whom aren't 'off'. I can't see it being a good idea to try and rehab a dog whom has attacked so severly or killed someone. This is, IMO, a dangerous situation. Some dogs are ticking time bombs.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Foyerhawk said:


> I mention those things because they are all deadly dangerous things that would be foolish to have in your home- much like this dog.
> 
> *How many of Vick's dogs ate children?*


I was thinking the same exact thing. Michael Vick's dogs were DA not HA. They found homes where they were the only pet. That is a far cry from a dog that rips off a child's scalp and keeps on running. There is something seriously wrong with this dog and it should be put down IMMEDIATELY.

I really wonder what you would be saying if this were a person that had done this to that little boy. They would most likely get the death sentence which this dog deserves.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Just because there are good dogs killed every day for lack of resources (homes, money, space, etc.) doesn't mean less-than-perfect dogs do not deserve a chance. The fact that any dog anywhere is killed for any other reason than a mercy killing should make us sick. Fighting mad. Outraged. It shouldn't make us think that any dog that isn't perfect should be killed just because there are better dogs being killed.
> 
> I think we as dog lovers need to develop a better sense of outrage. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing good dogs. It is NOT OK that shelters are killing ANY dogs, unless they're TRULY beyond saving.


I completely disagree with you.

Severely aggressive dogs such as this one should NOT live amongst people. They should all be PTS.

I am outraged that there are so many healthy, happy, friendly dogs that would be great additions to any household that are being euthanized. I have absolutely zero sadness for a dog that has mauled a child being euthanized.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> I wouldnt doubt it but what I am meaning is it sounds like this particular dog was aggressive with everyone not just kids. Its not like it just nipped or bit the kid and can be rehabilitated and placed in a child free home. *This dog mauled the kid and probably would have done the same to any human who it came across (from what the witnesses said) Whether the dog was abused, trained to be like this, unsocialied etc...I dont think it should have a place in society.*


I really think most of this story was just way to exaggerated. The way they worded made it seem alot worse than probably is. I also don't buy into the witnesses either. They are probably biased.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

BooLette said:


> I was thinking the same exact thing. *Michael Vick's dogs were DA not HA. * They found homes where they were the only pet. That is a far cry from a dog that rips off a child's scalp and keeps on running. There is something seriously wrong with this dog and it should be put down IMMEDIATELY.
> 
> *I really wonder what you would be saying if this were a person that had done this to that little boy. They would most likely get the death sentence which this dog deserves.*


Then why weren't they put down? They were DA and HA. Why would anyone bother to help these dogs?

Humans are different than dogs. This dog's actions were caused by the owner. A human would likely get the death sentence, but a human is able to know right from wrong and can let go. This dog doesn't deserve the death sentence. The way you put it seems really harsh.

And I bet the way they worded the story isn't as bad as they said it was.The way the story is worded they are buying into people's fear.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I am sickened that perfectly healthy and otherwise sound dogs/cats are PTS daily in the US. I have plehty of outrage that BYBS are doing their best to populate an already overpopulated world with dogs.
> I, like another said. would much rather see money and time spent on animals that need spaying/neutering and those whom are adoptable first. I am not against helping a dog whom has issues *as long as those don't include dogs whom jump out a window to attack and those whom maim and even worse kill an innocent person.*
> I think we have too much trouble finding responsible owners as it is for dogs whom aren't 'off'. I can't see it being a good idea to try and rehab a dog whom has attacked so severly or killed someone. This is, IMO, a dangerous situation. *Some dogs are ticking time bombs.*


I really find it hard to believe, the way the story worded, that this dog went after the kid with a vengeance. I would spend the money on helping animals in all ways, like on spaying/neutering, rehabbing the dog.

That last sentence just baffles me.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> I really think most of this story was just way to exaggerated. The way they worded made it seem alot worse than probably is. I also don't buy into the witnesses either. They are probably biased.


Exaggerated? Made a lot worse than it is? The child is in CRITICAL CONDITION at the hospital.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

BooLette said:


> I completely disagree with you.
> 
> Severely aggressive dogs such as this one should NOT live amongst people. They should all be PTS.
> 
> I am outraged that there are so many healthy, happy, friendly dogs that would be great additions to any household that are being euthanized. *I have absolutely zero sadness for a dog that has mauled a child being euthanized.*


I have zero sadness that some people don't think that some dogs don't deserve a second chance. In your posts, from the way you are saying, that you are blaming the dog for this, when it was clearly the owner's fault.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Amy_PRT said:


> Exaggerated? Made a lot worse than it is? The child is in CRITICAL CONDITION at the hospital.


I cannot find an update on this story. Look at how most of the story is written.

"_They say the pit bull was crazed and attacked with a vengeance, severely mauling the boys head. _"

and ""_The dog jumped out of the window, started biting everybody and then went for the little boy," Flores said._"

That just disturbs me and makes it hard to believe. They are making it sounds as if the dog was going after that kid on purpose.

If the boy is deed in critical condition, then it is sad. I feel for anyone has been bitten by a dog, or anyone who had a child who was attacked by a dog. But I wouldn't take my anger out on the dog, I would go after the owner and want him to suffer.........alot.

If anyone knows how to get updates on stories like these that would help. I cannot find an update on this story on the news channel website.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

You know, I've said that I am in favor of rehabbing dogs with issues, clearly I have a dog with a bite history, so I'm not one who doesn't want to give a second chance, however, this particular dog is likely beyond help at this point. I'm not sure that any dog that would maul someone can be reliably rehabbed. I know that I will never trust Moe not to bite a stranger ever again, and when he bit, it wasn't that bad of a bite. It is up to me now to work on training and manage his day to day interactions. When Moe bit, I firmly feel that my husband failed him. He was not keeping Moe or the neighbor safe. 

Yes, the owner clearly failed this dog miserably, and much, if not all, of this is his fault, and I suspect the owner will reap the consequences of his actions. However, like usual, the dog will suffer for the owners poor choices. I'm not sure what else could be done to keep people safe from this dog.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> I cannot find an update on this story. Look at how most of the story is written.
> 
> "_They say the pit bull was crazed and attacked with a vengeance, severely mauling the boys head. _"
> 
> ...


Ok....so you know those shows on Animal Planet or TLC or whatever, they talk about a "crazed" horse who goes after the audience after and accident when horses are fight or flight animals. Of course its gonna run. Its scared about what happened, possibly hurt. Same goes for a story like this. No I dont think the dog was probably crazed. Do I think he attacked with a vengeance, maybe. Do I think he severely mauled the boy, yes. The child is in cirtical condition. He was severely mauled. I dont think this dog was some crazed animal just sitting in the window waiting to attack. But I do think this is a clearly aggressive dog. Why it has become aggressive who knows. Owners fault? Good chance the owner had something to to with it. Breed trait? No one can deny that some breeds can be more aggressive than others, so it probably had something to do with it. Again, regardless, this particular dog is dangerous. And while I feel for it and wish it were different, this particular dog needs to be put down. The risk is too great for something to happen again.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> But I wouldn't take my anger out on the dog, I would go after the owner and want him to suffer.........alot.


Now really you have no proof the owner did anything wrong yet you want him to suffer for what the dog did?? The dog mauled the child and sounds like he would do it to anyone, for all we know maybe the owner was not the one who made the dog that way...maybe he thought he could rehabilitate the dog...unless there is an update we will never know...its sounds like you have such a want to save all dogs maybe you are over looking the fact that this dog mauled a child and put it in the ICU?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

I found an update(s):
http://cbs2.com/local/boy.mauled.pit.2.1748930.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...-clarita-boy-severely-bitten-by-pit-bull.html

Both are practically the say the same thing, but the boy is stable condition.The update said the dog _approached_ the kids. He apparently didn't jump out the window....I really want to know why the dog was just out and wandering and approached the kids...

Yes, I hope that the kid is deed ok, and he is stable condition. The owner needs to face charges, because apparently the dog was wandering around.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073;836981[B said:


> ]Now really you have no proof the owner did anything wrong yet you want him to suffer for what the dog did?? [/B] The dog mauled the child and sounds like he would do it to anyone, for all we know maybe the owner was not the one who made the dog that way...maybe he thought he could rehabilitate the dog...unless there is an update we will never know...its sounds like you have such a want to save all dogs maybe you are over looking the fact that this dog mauled a child and put it in the ICU?


Sorry, but I NEVER blame the dog. I just posted the update in a new post. I said in previous posts that I couldn't find an update. 

I would love save as many as I can, or help with it. Yes, I want him to suffer, because he caused it.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

SOME dogs deserve second chances. Dogs whom have bitten. Dogs whom have fear issues but don't outright attack. This dog attacked a small 5 year old boy! He was put in critical condition because this dog attacked. No matter who is at fault this dog attacked and may have even killed the boy if others hadn't intervened. 

I can honestly say this- If that had been my child I am not entirely sure how I would have reacted. I am not certain the dog would have made it to the shelter... I hate thinking that but in my anguish of seeing my child hurt so badly I am not sure my mothering, protective instinct or my childs father wouldn't have went a little crazy ourselves.
No one has blamed the dog at all for this incident because if he is mentally not right, tempermentally unsound it isn't his fault BUT the fact is that he attacked and whether it was malicious or not remains to be seen. I would say, IMO, jumping out of an open window and attacking would be malicious. 
It is amazing to me that compassion for animals tends to sometimes overshadow compassion for the fellow species.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Do you not understand what we are saying? No one is blaming the dog. The point is, the dog mauled a human being! Would YOU like to adopt it?


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Foyerhawk said:


> Do you not understand what we are saying? No one is blaming the dog. The point is, the dog mauled a human being! Would YOU like to adopt it?


Exactly what I was thinking.

and the articles you posted didnt really give any new information, they just seemed like a shortened version of the first article. It doesnt say the dog was wandering, it says the dog approached them....still could have come out of the window. I highly doubt every one would say it came out of the window if it didnt.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> SOME dogs deserve second chances. Dogs whom have bitten. Dogs whom have fear issues but don't outright attack. This dog attacked a small 5 year old boy! He was put in critical condition because this dog attacked. No matter who is at fault this dog attacked and may have even killed the boy if others hadn't intervened.
> 
> I can honestly say this- If that had been my child I am not entirely sure how I would have reacted. I am not certain the dog would have made it to the shelter... I hate thinking that but in my anguish of seeing my child hurt so badly I am not sure my mothering, protective instinct or my childs father wouldn't have went a little crazy ourselves.
> No one has blamed the dog at all for this incident because if he is mentally not right, tempermentally unsound it isn't his fault BUT the fact is that he attacked and whether it was malicious or not remains to be seen. I would say, *IMO, jumping out of an open window and attacking would be malicious.*
> It is amazing to me that compassion for animals tends to sometimes overshadow compassion for the fellow species.


Did you read the updates I posted? 

I am upset the kid was hurt! I feel for the mother!I live across the street from an elementary school, if there was an aggressive dog on the lose I would call Animal Control.I love kids! But I am not the kind of person who goes around saying "That dog needs to be dead now!" or something along those lines. I never said anyone blamed the dog, just one person's post sounded like it. Do I condone the way the dog acted?NO! Its sad to see ANY CHILD be hurt! If it were my kid I would want the owner to be charged. I don't like blaming humans or dogs for something someone else did!

The reason I feel more compassionate about animals, because some humans just downright sicken me, the things some do just disturb me.But it doesn't mean I hate humans.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> Do you not understand what we are saying? No one is blaming the dog. The point is, the dog mauled a human being! Would YOU like to adopt it?


Yes, I do understand. I KNOW THE DOG MAULED A KID! I am sad for the kid! I do hope he makes it! I do hope the child recovers!I feel sorry for the mom! I hope this doesn't cause the mom or kid to have hatred towards pitbulls let alone any dog!I never said anyone was blaming the dog! Please tell me where I said that. I know I did say somethings were what pro-BSL would say, but I never said ANYONE was blaming the dog. 

I can't adopt the dog 1. My insurance won't allow me to own a Rottweiler, Doberman, or Pitbull because they are dangerous. I know some dogs can be dangerous. 2. I am not trained or do I have room to take in the dog. If I could I would have that dog sent to a dog rehabilitation center to see if the dog can be saved and if couldn't then I would want the dog to be put down!Also I don't go and call ANY dog for ANY reason a POS.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I too hope it doesn't cause anyone to have hatred for the breed. I'll agree there. I don't hate the breed (I love them, actually).


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

Fact: The dog attacked a child. 

Fact: The dog is clearly aggressive (for whatever reason).

Fact: There is a chance that the dog could do it again.

Everything else is all guesses...who, what, where, why. If a dog is brought to a point that it attacks a child and puts it in critical condition (or stable condition, depending on which article you read. Doesnt really matter though does it, the child has been badly injured and put in the hospital), IT NEEDS TO BE PUT DOWN.

I feel for the dog. I really, really do. But I feel for the child more and I feel for the future walfare of other children/adults that this dog could injure. No one knows how or why or what caused this dog to do what it did. But to me, it does not matter at this point. In this particular case the dog needs to be put down. IF the owner was abusive then there needs to be some criminal charges.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Foyerhawk said:


> I too hope it doesn't cause anyone to have hatred for the breed. I'll agree there. I don't hate the breed (I love them, actually).


I love the breed too. I love all dog breeds. I just want ethunization to be a last resort. IF IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO SAVE/HELP THE DOG, then yes, but I would like to know all the dog's chances of being helped with his issue. If he can in deed be helped then I would take that chance for him.

I love kids. Would I have a aggressive dog in my house with kids?No. My aunt and uncle had a sheltie they spoiled like mad, and they had a kid and that dog got jealous. She bit my cousin in the eye. They didn't call AC, because they knew the dog would be pts, so they gave the dog to an older couple who had no kids.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I saw the articles after I had already posted my reply so I was a little behind. Ugh.
My problem is this and hear me out- This story came about at the same time (pretty much) as the boy that killed the pomeranian. 
There are so many things we don't know but here is what we do know from both stories- a child was attacked and is in the hospital, a small dog is dead.

Very sad stories. The common thread here is that both the dog and the child seem to be 'sick'. The child in question is 8 years old. As I have watched my children through the years I know that at 8 years my normal children would KNOW, without a doubt, that this was beyond wrong. My child, whom is 6, would know it is wrong but acts on every impulse that goes through his head. He does not seem to have the compassion nor mental ability to understand and comprehend things the way his older brothers did. If, god forbid, my son ever did anything remotely like this because of his 'disability' I would blame myself. I would not, however, blame him. He isn't mentally as 'there' as my other children. 
The child in that story- We have no clue as to what may or may not be wrong with him. He may have been abused or he may be mentally ill. 
I have noticed more compassion for this dog whom attacked and may possibly pay with his life than for this child whom may be 'not right' just as this dog is 'not right'. 
Euthanize a child? I don't even know what to think. Dave Pelzer has some wonderful books out on the abuse he suffered and things he went through. Children often are just as mistreated as animals. Both are innocents in this cruel world.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I saw the articles after I had already posted my reply so I was a little behind. Ugh.
> My problem is this and hear me out- This story came about at the same time (pretty much) as the boy that killed the pomeranian.
> There are so many things we don't know but here is what we do know from both stories- a child was attacked and is in the hospital, a small dog is dead.
> 
> ...



With the update, it says the dog wandered up to them. Big change from jumping out the window to wandering up to them. I am still trying to look for a more updated story since this was a week ago. But all the keeps popping up is another story where a 2 year old was attacked by a pitbull.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Wandered up and attacked.... Yep, just checking- still attacked at the end.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Wandered up and attacked.... Yep, just checking- still attacked at the end.


Still wandering why the dog was just out an about, seems like a supposed random attack. Alot of these attacks happen in Cali, they have been on the rise recently...


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I have noticed more compassion for this dog whom attacked and may possibly pay with his life than for this child whom may be 'not right' just as this dog is 'not right'.
> Euthanize a child? I don't even know what to think. Dave Pelzer has some wonderful books out on the abuse he suffered and things he went through. Children often are just as mistreated as animals. Both are innocents in this cruel world.


I do not in any way think ANY animal abuse is ok. Ever. I do not in anyway think that a child who kills an animal needs to walk away with a slap on his/her wrist. Something needs to be done depending on the case of the child. But when you compare euthanasia of a child to the euthanasia of a dog you are getting into an area that you......well, really cant compare. And as much as I love animals, the day dogs/cats/horses/sheep/etc have the same rights as me is the day I put MYSELF to sleep.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Amy_PRT said:


> I do not in any way think ANY animal abuse is ok. Ever. I do not in anyway think that a child who kills an animal needs to walk away with a slap on his/her wrist. Something needs to be done depending on the case of the child. *But when you compare euthanasia of a child to the euthanasia of a dog you are getting into an area that you......well, really cant compare. * And as much as I love animals, the day dogs/cats/horses/sheep/etc have the same rights as me is the day I put MYSELF to sleep.


Well I certainly don't want them taking our jobs away or buying houses!That would be awkward going to college class with a Siberian Husky......ok i am just going crazy.

But yes euthanasia of a dog and euthanasia of a human is different.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> Still wandering why the dog was just out an about, seems like a supposed random attack. Alot of these attacks happen in Cali, they have been on the rise recently...


It doesnt say the dog was out and about, or wandering around...it just said the dog approached the boy, which still means it could have come out of the window like the witnesses say. I doubt this is a random attack...the witnesses also say the dog was agressive and tried to get at people when it was chained.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> Well I certainly don't want them taking our jobs away or buying houses!That would be awkward going to college class with a Siberian Husky......ok i am just going crazy.


I have a bumper sticker that says "My Parson Russell Terrier is smarter than your honor student".....and sadly, my Parsons seem to outsmart me most of the time. So yes, good thing they dont have the same rights or I think I would be working for them!


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

It doesn't really matter, at the end of the day, where the dog came from. It does matter that the dog attacked and maimed a young child.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> It doesnt say the dog was out and about, or wandering around...it just said the dog approached the boy, which still means it could have come out of the window like the witnesses say. I doubt this is a random attack..*.the witnesses also say the dog was agressive and tried to get at people when it was chained.*


It said he approached the kid, but no window. Ok the last part scares me, that dog was chained? Where does it say that? I don't see it anywhere.

If someone has an aggressive dog on a chain.....that means something.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Amy_PRT said:


> I have a bumper sticker that says "My Parson Russell Terrier is smarter than your honor student".....and sadly, my Parsons seem to outsmart me most of the time. So yes, good thing they dont have the same rights or I think I would be working for them!


Its kind of scary when your dog is sometimes.lol


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> It doesn't really matter, at the end of the day, where the dog came from. It does matter that the dog attacked and maimed a young child.


Agreed....


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> It said he approached the kid, but no window. Ok the last part scares me, that dog was chained? Where does it say that? I don't see it anywhere.
> 
> If someone has an aggressive dog on a chain.....that means something.



You have gotten yourself so worked up trying to convince everyone that this dog deserves to be saved that you are not even reading or repeating the story right.


The original story states the came out of the window by witnesses, the same witnesses said the dog was always being walked on a big chain. The follow up stories state the dog approached the child...it does not say it was wandering around. It still could very well have come out of the window like the witnesses say...we have reason to think they would all add that to the news story. It does not sound like a random attack...rather an aggressive dog who got out and attacked a child.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> Its kind of scary when your dog is sometimes.lol


I was gonna edit my last post to say that I think I already do work for them! My life revolves around my 3 year old 2 legged child and my 4 4 legged kids!


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> You have gotten yourself so worked up trying to convince everyone that this dog deserves to be saved that you are not even reading or repeating the story right.
> 
> 
> The original story states the came out of the window by witnesses, the same witnesses said the dog was always being walked on a big chain. The follow up stories state the dog approached the child...it does not say it was wandering around. It still could very well have come out of the window like the witnesses say...we have reason to think they would all add that to the news story. It does not sound like a random attack...rather an aggressive dog who got out and attacked a child.


No. I read the original story many times and nowhere does it say the dog was chained. 

Are you reading the same story? Because in this one it does not say the dog was chained:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?s...ngeles&id=7494789&cmp=fb-kabc-article-7494789

It doesn't say anywhere that the dog was chained.Does anyone else see it?


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> No. I read the original story many times and nowhere does it say the dog was chained.
> 
> Are you reading the same story? Because in this one it does not say the dog was chained:
> http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?s...ngeles&id=7494789&cmp=fb-kabc-article-7494789
> ...


In the video some woman says she saw the dog being walked on a big chain.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Amy_PRT said:


> In the video some woman says she saw the dog being walked on a big chain.


Yes it was in the news story at the top where all the witnesses were talking.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Amy_PRT said:


> In the video some woman says she saw the dog being walked on a big chain.


Well the big chain explains something. I think the witnesses saying the dog was a chain is little much. But thats just me.he could or could not have been on a chain.

But I don't want anyone to think I believe this kid deserved to get bit because I don't. I don't think a kid BBQing a dog is good either.


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## Amy_PRT (Jun 9, 2010)

misty073 said:


> Yes it was in the news story at the top where all the witnesses were talking.


I know. I watched it.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> Well the big chain explains something. I think the witnesses saying the dog was a chain is little much. But thats just me.he could or could not have been on a chain.
> 
> But I don't want anyone to think I believe this kid deserved to get bit because I don't. I don't think a kid BBQing a dog is good either.



Did you watch the video??? He was not on a chain when he attacked the kid. Apparently he was on the other side of the window.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

I just want to make this clear for everyone:

I do feel bad for the kid and hope he makes a good recovery. I do not think this boy deserved to be attacked. I feel sorry for the mom too. I don't think any mom deserves to have her kid attacked by a human or animal.

I just think that this dog should at least be evaluated to see what would have caused the dog to attack. If he can't be saved and they cannot find a reason why the dog attack then the dog should be put to sleep. But the owner should be charged.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

misty073 said:


> Did you watch the video??? He was not on a chain when he attacked the kid. Apparently he was on the other side of the window.


Yes, I did. Either way. the dog had been on a chain, could possibly mean something. No dog should be on a chain. And no I am not saying you think that.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I don't believe the dog was kept on a chain but walked on one much like a leash but the big macho thing that some do to the bully breeds.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't believe the dog was kept on a chain but walked on one much like a leash but the big macho thing that some do to the bully breeds.


WHo knows what else the chain was used for. I actually don't wanna know if it was.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

A lot of guys like to be macho and walk their dogs on a chain or even in some cases they're nice guys but their dog has broken every other leash or tether they've tried. Now I'm not saying using a huge chain is good but you can kind of see their thought process here.

Some good owners use chains/tie outs/etc too.

To me the chain means little to nothing. It certainly doesn't mean the dog was abused.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> A lot of guys like to be macho and walk their dogs on a chain or even in some cases they're nice guys but their dog has broken every other leash or tether they've tried. Now I'm not saying using a huge chain is good but you can kind of see their thought process here.
> 
> Some good owners use chains/tie outs/etc too.
> 
> To me the chain means little to nothing. It certainly doesn't mean the dog was abused.


Usually in Cali it means something. Sometimes it does, sometime it doesn't. if noticed in the video it was in a not so good area.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I don't think Cali is much different from Lousiville here. I have seen the thugs walking their pits on chains. I have also seen poor kids walking their dogs on chains whom clearly love their dogs but don't have the means themselves to provide properly for their dogs.
Walking a dog with a chain means nothing. A dog tied up outside day in and day out might mean something. Isn't considered abuse legally in most instances but in my eyes that's a pretty dismal life for any being.
This dog may or may not have been abused. If it was I hope the owners pay big time. I think they should anyway since witnesses said they walked it on a chain and it was aggressive. 
I hate blanket statements. I lived in a few 'rough' areas in my life but I never abused, mistreated, or otherwise misused my dogs. I would have protected them from anything.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't think Cali is much different from Lousiville here. I have seen the thugs walking their pits on chains. I have also seen poor kids walking their dogs on chains whom clearly love their dogs but don't have the means themselves to provide properly for their dogs.
> Walking a dog with a chain means nothing. A dog tied up outside day in and day out might mean something. Isn't considered abuse legally in most instances but in my eyes that's a pretty dismal life for any being.
> This dog may or may not have been abused. If it was I hope the owners pay big time. I think they should anyway since witnesses said they walked it on a chain and it was aggressive.
> I hate blanket statements. I lived in a few 'rough' areas in my life but I never abused, mistreated, or otherwise misused my dogs. I would have protected them from anything.


I agree. Even if the guy was walking his dog on a chain to look 'macho' that still would not matter if the dog had a sound temperament to begin with.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't think Cali is much different from Lousiville here. I have seen the thugs walking their pits on chains. I have also seen poor kids walking their dogs on chains whom clearly love their dogs but don't have the means themselves to provide properly for their dogs.
> Walking a dog with a chain means nothing. A dog tied up outside day in and day out might mean something. Isn't considered abuse legally in most instances but in my eyes that's a pretty dismal life for any being.
> This dog may or may not have been abused. If it was I hope the owners pay big time. I think they should anyway since witnesses said they walked it on a chain and it was aggressive.
> I hate blanket statements. I lived in a few 'rough' areas in my life but I never abused, mistreated, or otherwise misused my dogs. I would have protected them from anything.


Yes, it is a bit more different. I don't think I said that anyone who comes from a "rough" neighborhood is bad. Someone I went high school with and graduated with my sister went to a very good college(UCLA) and is now in the NFL. He came from a bad neighborhood.

Just most of the time, the dog that is on a chain and aggressive then obviously something is wrong.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I'm sorry- When I said 'rough' area I was refering to your comment about it being a not so good area in the video. 
I have visited Cali quite a few times over the past 10 years and don't think it's quite that different from here. Are you from Louisville? Have you been in the downtown area where the projects are? 
I don't think anyone can say their whole area is different from other areas totally. I have been to many places in the US and have noticed subtle differences but not major differences. 
I have also lived in Ohio, Illinois, New York, Connecticut, and Tennessee. Visited Cali, Florida, Mississippi, New Jersey... The 3 places I have seen the most bully breeds wearing chains have been Louisville (here), Ohio, and certain areas of New York. 

I don't think not so good areas automatically mean abuse.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I'm sorry- When I said 'rough' area I was refering to your comment about it being a not so good area in the video.
> I have visited Cali quite a few times over the past 10 years and don't think it's quite that different from here. Are you from Louisville? Have you been in the downtown area where the projects are?
> I don't think anyone can say their whole area is different from other areas totally. I have been to many places in the US and have noticed subtle differences but not major differences.
> I have also lived in Ohio, Illinois, New York, Connecticut, and Tennessee. Visited Cali, Florida, Mississippi, New Jersey... The 3 places I have seen the most bully breeds wearing chains have been Louisville (here), Ohio, and certain areas of New York.
> ...


No I have not, it doesn't necessarily mean abuse. Some people just end up living there. 

But even if he was in living in Malibu or Miami, or the Hamptons or any of the super nice places or a bad neighborhood, *sometimes* aggressive dogs and chains, isn't a good combo.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Chains and dogs can = bad (sometimes). I agree with that. 

I do want to tell you before I hit the bed and forget to mention this- I LOVE GSDs and think the 2 in your avatar are adorable. (Had to get that off my chest)


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Chains and dogs can = bad (sometimes). I agree with that.
> 
> I do want to tell you before I hit the bed and forget to mention this- I LOVE GSDs and think the 2 in your avatar are adorable. (Had to get that off my chest)


If I see a dog on a chain, I tend to feel bad that they don't have a collar or real leash. My dad bought these kids a nice leash once because they had a chain.

Aww thanks.lol. I love them too.lol.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

There is one thing I majorly LOVE about animal people- they have all always been passionate! Not just about dogs/cats either but other issues also. 
Many times they may not see eye to eye but they do 'get it'. And in the end no matter what disagreements may have come their way they come back together to create a family to help an animal in need. Unity is a great thing.
I hope no one was at any point offended in any posts I have made and that no one leaves bitter when all is said and done. Debates are healthy as long as name calling doesn't get thrown around. And another good thing adults can agree to disagree. 
I am proud to say I am an animal lover because I overall enjoy the caliber of people whom are also in this catergory. It is good to feel at home somewhere. Lol.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> There is one thing I majorly LOVE about animal people- they have all always been passionate! Not just about dogs/cats either but other issues also.
> Many times they may not see eye to eye but they do 'get it'. And in the end no matter what disagreements may have come their way they come back together to create a family to help an animal in need. Unity is a great thing.
> I hope no one was at any point offended in any posts I have made and that no one leaves bitter when all is said and done. Debates are healthy as long as name calling doesn't get thrown around. And another good thing adults can agree to disagree.
> I am proud to say I am an animal lover because I overall enjoy the caliber of people whom are also in this catergory. It is good to feel at home somewhere. Lol.


I agree 100%


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

The owner is 100% at fault. It doesn't matter what happened- if the dog isn't secured and attacks someone its the owners fault. Hope they sue him for considerable damages (as it seems this child was quite severely mauled).

This next part may irritate some people but I really don't have a serious issue with an animal who has a history of mauling someone to be euthanized. A lot of the attacks are by backyard animals that have socialization issues. Some may never be 100%...

but here is the main reason why I don't have an issue with it. Somewhere around the number of 5 millions cats and dogs are euthanized in shelters each year. The vast majority of which likely don't have the baggage this dog has now because of its stupid owner. 

It really irritates me that people gravitate towards animals with this type of history when there are perfectly fine animals with no or less baggage being put to sleep every day.


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## Dobelove (Jun 17, 2010)

I feel really bad for the boy and his mother  I hope he has a speedy recovery.

This is mainly the owners fault, as well as the "breeders." The owner for not properly training/socializing the dog as well as not properly containing him. It's the breeders fault for not finding the dog a better home to begin with.

The article is EXTREMELY bias. Just by reading the first sentence. I also find it odd that they didn't show anything the owner said in the article or the clip. I doubt if the kids were doing something to irritate the dog that they would put it in the article. Not saying provoking the dog would give it reason to maul a child but still.

How does a dog know that when cops point a gun at it that it should run?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Dobelove said:


> I feel really bad for the boy and his mother  I hope he has a speedy recovery.
> 
> This is mainly the owners fault, as well as the "breeders." The owner for not properly training/socializing the dog as well as not properly containing him. It's the breeders fault for not finding the dog a better home to begin with.
> 
> ...


If a dog knows what a gun is obviously it had some sort of contact with a gun before, possibly the dog was beaten. Yes this article was very biased. I highly doubt they would put that the child provoked the dog. I haven't really read a story where they say the child provoked the dog.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

JessieLove09 said:


> I found an update(s):
> http://cbs2.com/local/boy.mauled.pit.2.1748930.html
> 
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...-clarita-boy-severely-bitten-by-pit-bull.html
> ...


The video segment said the dog jumped out a window.

Also the boy went from 5 to 4 years old. Reporters need to be more careful in their reports so the facts are given without a great deal of drama. The boy was severely injured from a bite that should have been prevented, that fact remains.


A few weeks ago, my friend was bit by a 12 week old small breed puppy. The puppy was just playing, grabbing pant legs and pulling and then all of a sudden my friend yelled. When I looked I saw blood running all down her leg. There was a huge flap of skin, a deep bite mark. It was just an accidental bite from a playing puppy. That was on an adult. Imagine the damage done to a little boy from a much larger dog that intended to bite?

It doesn't matter if the dog approached slowly and then spooked for some reason and snapped at the child. What does matter is that this little boy got bit, BAD.

The owner was obviously not capable of keeping this dog restrained or it wouldn't have happened. People do not knock down the doors at shelters to adopt or rehab dogs with bite histories, much less Pit Bulls with bite histories. 

Humanely euthanizing this dog will still be sad because in a different home, this dog might have been capable of being a Therapy dog or service dog or champion fly-ball dog. In this home the dog became another bite statistic. This home, these people did not provide the home this dog required to be a safe member of society. It is never the dogs fault, in my opinion but the fact remains that the dog should be put to sleep. 

I too hope the owner's are charged, as they are the true problem.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> Then why weren't they put down? They were DA and HA. Why would anyone bother to help these dogs?
> 
> Humans are different than dogs. This dog's actions were caused by the owner. A human would likely get the death sentence, but a human is able to know right from wrong and can let go. This dog doesn't deserve the death sentence. The way you put it seems really harsh.
> 
> And I bet the way they worded the story isn't as bad as they said it was.The way the story is worded they are buying into people's fear.


You need to read a little closer. I said they were DA *NOT* HA. This dog mauled a child. I don't care what was done to cause the dog to do this. It needs to be PTS, plain and simple.


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## -Maxine- (Jun 8, 2010)

Ok, many bites from dogs are caused by the owner. Bad socialization as a pup, not enough experience, not being able to handle the dog, etc...
BUT.....!
I'd never say that it's 100% the owners fault. There can be health issues for example that can trigger a dog to attack and in that case it's not the owner's fault if they don't know there is something wrong with their dog.

Yes, it's sad. And no, not 100% of all people who had a dog that attacked someone should be blamed. Many of them do, not not all of them.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Inga said:


> The video segment said the dog jumped out a window.
> 
> Also the boy went from 5 to 4 years old. Reporters need to be more careful in their reports so the facts are given without a great deal of drama. The boy was severely injured from a bite that should have been prevented, that fact remains.
> 
> ...


You believe what the people in the video say? Thats not even as crediable as the report. I don't even believe the witnesses. The story is very biased.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

BooLette said:


> You need to read a little closer. I said they were DA *NOT* HA. This dog mauled a child. I don't care what was done to cause the dog to do this. It needs to be PTS, plain and simple.



Yes the cause of the dog do this DOES matter. If it didn't the dog would constantly be blamed and it help add fuel the fire of BSL, It would help on the dog's part. If the dog is at aleast evaluated to determine what caused the attack, then it may give the dog a chance to be rehabilitated.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

-Maxine- said:


> Ok, many bites from dogs are caused by the owner. Bad socialization as a pup, not enough experience, not being able to handle the dog, etc...
> BUT.....!
> I'd never say that it's 100% the owners fault. There can be health issues for example that can trigger a dog to attack and in that case it's not the owner's fault if they don't know there is something wrong with their dog.
> 
> Yes, it's sad. And no, not 100% of all people who had a dog that attacked someone should be blamed. Many of them do, not not all of them.


I NEVER blamed the dog. It is the owners fault for not taking care of his dog. His dog was already aggressive so the owner was the one who is responsible to see why this dog is being aggressive whether is medical or not. It is the owner's responsibility to find out what is wrong with his and correct it.


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## -Maxine- (Jun 8, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> I NEVER blamed the dog. It is the owners fault for not taking care of his dog. His dog was already aggressive so the owner was the one who is responsible to see why this dog is being aggressive whether is medical or not. It is the owner's responsibility to find out what is wrong with his and correct it.


Since you have dogs yourself, I bet you know that dogs are masters in hiding any discomfort or pain. 
And I bet you also know that many dog owners don't have the knowledge to see the symptoms. Even people who really care for their dog and really do their best can still have an aggressive dog.
It's true; bad education is 90% the main reason of a dog's aggression. I'm just saying that, sometimes, an owner couldn't have done anything to stop his/her dog from biting. 
Even though some biting accidents can be blamed on the owner, they're not always fully responsable for it. 
Like, when you take your dog out very early in the morning when there's nobody else on the streets. But suddenly, you're being harassed by a man who wants to do bad things to you. So your dog bites to protect you. OR when a little boy suddenly pops up to ask you something and your dog gets startled so he bites.
The owner is not to blame here.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

JessieLove09 said:


> I really have a hard time believing that the dog jumped through the window on purpose like the story is saying. The only way I would think a dog would jump though a window is because the dog was trained to.
> 
> The owner is at fault, not the dog. The owner is POS, not the dog.


My dog jumped through a third story window. Twice. One window open with no screen. One window open and she shredded the screen. She jumped to get to me as I left the apartment but I have never encouraged this behavior.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Foyerhawk said:


> Do you not understand what we are saying? No one is blaming the dog. The point is, the dog mauled a human being! Would YOU like to adopt it?


I don't believe the story. It's obviously written in a very inflammatory and hysterical manner, and who knows what they real truth might be? I've had people claim that my Rott "attacked" them, when he just looked at them. I've known people whose kids were licked by a pit bull and they rushed to the emergency room. Hysteria makes for stupidity.

I'm not saying this dog should be saved. But he should be evaluated by the proper professionals before it is decided that he must die.



Bones said:


> It really irritates me that people gravitate towards animals with this type of history when there are perfectly fine animals with no or less baggage being put to sleep every day.


Again, just because of the completely outrageous fact that good animals are being killed unnecessarily doesn't mean that the less-than-perfect animals don't deserve a chance. Instead of being upset that people choose to commit resources to saving less-than-perfect animals, you should be more outraged that good animals are being killed for no reason. There's no excuse for that; it is NOT inevitable. There are more than enough homes for all the shelter dogs. It's up to the shelters to get the dogs to those homes.

I don't see outrage from most pet people. I see sadness and resignation. This accomplishes nothing. We need more outrage. That's what gets things done.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

-Maxine- said:


> Since you have dogs yourself, I bet you know that dogs are masters in hiding any discomfort or pain.
> And I bet you also know that many dog owners don't have the knowledge to see the symptoms. Even people who really care for their dog and really do their best can still have an aggressive dog.
> It's true; bad education is 90% the main reason of a dog's aggression. I'm just saying that, sometimes, an owner couldn't have done anything to stop his/her dog from biting.
> Even though some biting accidents can be blamed on the owner, they're not always fully responsable for it.
> ...


The owner is to blame here. He didn't control his dog, he knew his dog is aggressive. If you know you're dog is aggressive and there are kids around you would do everything in your power to keep this dog from hurting them or anyone. But this owner failed to do that. So it is his fault for not controlling or containing his dog.

A responsible owner would try to find out why their dog is aggressive and try to correct it, if they can't they do what they can to control or contain their dog. This owner failed to do that. So he is responsible.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Tofu_pup said:


> My dog jumped through a third story window. Twice. One window open with no screen. One window open and she shredded the screen. She jumped to get to me as I left the apartment but I have never encouraged this behavior.


Never really said it couldn't happen. But the way the story puts it and describes it is sad and disturbing. Why change the story from jumping out of a window to approaching? If the dog was known to be aggressive why let it come near you? There were other kids, i think some older kids why didn't they step up and say "Hey lets go thats not a nice dog." and walked away.

This is a horrible story, no one is saying the kid deserved this. We all hope the kid makes a safe and speedy recovery. But the dog should be evaluated by a professional to see what caused the dog to do this, then the decision for the dog to be pts should be made.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> *The owner is to blame here.* He didn't control his dog, he knew his dog is aggressive. If you know you're dog is aggressive and there are kids around you would do everything in your power to keep this dog from hurting them or anyone. But this owner failed to do that. So it is his fault for not controlling or containing his dog.
> 
> A responsible owner would try to find out why their dog is aggressive and try to correct it, if they can't they do what they can to control or contain their dog. This owner failed to do that. So he is responsible.


You sound like such a broken record, and I really don't understand why you feel the need to repeat this over and over and over. I don't think that anyone here has disagreed with this.

What we are disagreeing about is on whether or not a dog that mauls a child should be rehabilitated or not.

I don't care what was done to this dog to make it jump out a window and attack a child. Short of a medical reason, this dog needs to be euthanized. If it were my child that had been attacked we wouldn't be needing to have this debate because I would have already killed him. Plain and simple.


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## kpollard (Aug 3, 2008)

Jessie, to me approached doesn't mean that he just ambled up. Approach can mean he ran up to them. And, further, you can say all you want "not a nice dog, let's walk away" but that doesn't mean the dog will just lose interest. 

I appreciate how much passion you have for this, but you have to admit that the time and resources that would have to be used on this dog may not be available. and if it comes between rehabbing this dog and rehabbing a dog who has shown aggression but has never bitten, which is the better choice?


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Up to the shelters to get these dogs homes? 

Wow! Why is it the shelters fault that there are irresponsible owners whom let their dogs breed nilly willy and don't give a thought to overpopulation?! Do you honestly believe that there is a home for every dog and cat born in the US? Just in the shelters in volunteered at I say No. And when I say a home= I mean a good home not just any home.
This is getting a tad bit ridiculous. No one has said the dog is to blame. Most, if not all, consider the owner to blame. This is NOT where the argument lies.
Everyone wants shelters to stop killing perfectly healthy animals- Well then be part of the da*n solution! Educate others, spay and neuter pets other than your own, volunteer, be a foster parent to needy animals, take pics of shelter animals and push them yourself, and stop rehabbing dogs that attack when all these perfectly decent animals are dying for homes!
And once again here is the thing for those whom don't believe dogs can be born 'wrong' : There are many animals abused every year in the US and yet a small percentage attack. Why is that? Since you don't believe in animals being mentally ill or born not wired right- why are they attacking? Please enlighten me. 
For the record I don't like blame being placed on shelters for the overpopulation and dumb arses whom don't s/n. And especially don't like them being blamed for the animals not finding homes. Is it their fault that idiots put them in the position to have to pick and choose whom lives each and every day? 
That's crazy talk.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Jessie, you are young, passionate and have a deep love for animals and that's a great thing! The empathy you feel for dogs is great and the fact that you are and probably always will be a responsible dog owner is fantastic. You won't contribute to pet overpopulation, you won't buy into the idiocy of BSL, your pets will always be properly cared for and vetted and you won't take on more than you can adequately do.

But you're not a mother yet, for one thing, and you can't possibly understand what it's like to see your own child bleeding at your feet, not knowing if he will live or die. I promise you - you would want that dog dead. No doubt about that.

For another thing - you haven't yet come to the age where you have realized that as much as you may want to, you can't save the world. It's a realization that many of us crusaders have to come to at some point. And all the passion and the zeal we have - though it rushes through our veins like lava in a volcano, the basic truth is we cannot save them all and we cannot do it all.

The original article was horribly written, incredibly vague and indubitably biased. When it comes to "dangerous breeds", we probably never get the true and complete story. But the bottom line is this: kids were playing outside, a dog attacked them, a small child was horribly injured. 

Other hard facts: There are hundreds of thousands of non-aggressive dogs without bite histories in need of good homes across the country. There are millions of animals PTS every year. The euthanasia of this dog is proper in this situation and is not going to really matter in light of the millions of "good" dogs put down every year. It's really not.

Yes, the dog's owners are to blame, as most owners are when dog attacks/bites occur. 
No, this dog attack is not a good reason for BSL; nothing is. 
No, the victim/parents are not to blame in the least. 
Yes, it was bad/sensationalistic reporting.

Jessie, I respect your passion, honey, and I really do not mean this in a disrespectful or condescending way ... but you have a great deal of growing up to do.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

BooLette said:


> You sound like such a broken record, and I really don't understand why you feel the need to repeat this over and over and over. I don't think that anyone here has disagreed with this.
> 
> What we are disagreeing about is on whether or not a dog that mauls a child should be rehabilitated or not.
> 
> I don't care what was done to this dog to make it jump out a window and attack a child. Short of a medical reason, this dog needs to be euthanized. *If it were my child that had been attacked we wouldn't be needing to have this debate because I would have already killed him. Plain and simple.*


I was reapeating to the person who said the owner isn't to blame. 

I would at least evaluate the dog to see what made the dog do what he did.

Good for you that you would kill an innocent dog that could have possibly be helped.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

kpollard said:


> Jessie, to me approached doesn't mean that he just ambled up. Approach can mean he ran up to them. And, further, you can say all you want "not a nice dog, let's walk away" but that doesn't mean the dog will just lose interest.
> 
> I appreciate how much passion you have for this, but you have to admit that the time and resources that would have to be used on this dog may not be available. and if it comes between rehabbing this dog and rehabbing a dog who has shown aggression but has never bitten, which is the better choice?


I would help both dogs. Another user on another thread that this discussion was brought in said it plain and simple:

_"a. kid needs help. that is all.

*b. aggressive dogs should be evaluated and rehab attempted in most cases. aggression and even bite history is not necessarily cause for PTS.
*
that is all."_


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Up to the shelters to get these dogs homes?
> 
> Wow! Why is it the shelters fault that there are irresponsible owners whom let their dogs breed nilly willy and don't give a thought to overpopulation?! Do you honestly believe that there is a home for every dog and cat born in the US? Just in the shelters in volunteered at I say No. And when I say a home= I mean a good home not just any home.
> This is getting a tad bit ridiculous. No one has said the dog is to blame. Most, if not all, consider the owner to blame. This is NOT where the argument lies.
> ...


I am on another forum and we had a discussion on whether or not a dog owner has the right to breed and we came to the discussion about dogs in shelters, and apparently some shelters actually breed dogs so they can get more adoptions of puppies! >.<


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Up to the shelters to get these dogs homes?
> 
> Wow! Why is it the shelters fault that there are irresponsible owners whom let their dogs breed nilly willy and don't give a thought to overpopulation?! Do you honestly believe that there is a home for every dog and cat born in the US? Just in the shelters in volunteered at I say No. And when I say a home= I mean a good home not just any home.
> This is getting a tad bit ridiculous. No one has said the dog is to blame. Most, if not all, consider the owner to blame. This is NOT where the argument lies.
> ...


You don't know why they attack? They attack because they are abused! They attack because their owner didn't properly train them or socialize them, they attack because they were trained to and thats all they know.There are many reasons why animals attack. The will probably bite because they have a pain and no one knows why because they think the dog is just vicious.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Again- point missed. There are many, many dogs that are abused in this world, unfortunately. Why are there so few that don't attack then??? To me this is because many of them are mentally sound. The ones whom aren't- ???? 

The major problem here is this, whether you think so or not, too many dog lovers are willing to put ALL dogs, regardless of breed, on the chopping block to save the few whom aren't salvagable or if are won't be able to live the life of a mentally sound dog. This IS the problem. Accept that it is what it is and then do something about it. Don't make it easier for those whom are for BSL by basically giving your 'ok' which is what is happening when we don't join and say "Yes this isn't right. We are going to do away with vicious dogs." 
Any given member of a breed can be vicious, of any breed. We have to make it clear on this point. Then we have to stand and say that we won't tolerate pets whom attack, maim, and kill. Not a breed but as individuals. BSL ends when we can all agree, come together, and put an end to aggressive dogs, not aggressive breeds.
We don't want others to blanket/target specific breeds but to target vicious dogs of ANY breed. I want to be able to choose my future dogs without having to worry about whether or not the breed is 'allowed'. I want, however, to end the stigma surrounding the breeds now known as 'aggressive'. 
I won't ever condone saving an aggressive, vicious dog whom has attacked because I care far too much for the majority of the dogs in the world whom haven't done anything wrong and are dying daily. What I am hearing when the line of thinking some are portraying is this: Save one by placing it into intense therapy and putting much time and effort into it. In this case you are putting 2 or 3 (maybe more) perfectly sound dogs down to save the one. Not justifiable in my opinion.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

infiniti said:


> Jessie, you are young, passionate and have a deep love for animals and that's a great thing! The empathy you feel for dogs is great and the fact that you are and probably always will be a responsible dog owner is fantastic. You won't contribute to pet overpopulation, you won't buy into the idiocy of BSL, your pets will always be properly cared for and vetted and you won't take on more than you can adequately do.
> 
> But you're not a mother yet, for one thing, and you can't possibly understand what it's like to see your own child bleeding at your feet, not knowing if he will live or die. I promise you - you would want that dog dead. No doubt about that.
> 
> ...


I know I wouldn't want the dog dead. I was talking to a fellow dog owner who is a mother and she also thinks the dog should be at least be evaluated to determine what caused the dog to bite before being pts.

I know I can't save the world. I try to save as many as I can. I just think it would at least be fair to evaluate the dog to see what caused it to bite(I think it should happen with all dogs who do this) and then determine if the dog can be rehabilitated or pts.

I am aware that I have some growing up to do, but I hate being talked to like I am 12, its rude and unnecessary.

I know I can't save the world.I am sorry but I kind of thought that was s silly statement. Otherwise I appreciate your post.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Again- point missed. There are many, many dogs that are abused in this world, unfortunately. Why are there so few that don't attack then??? To me this is because many of them are mentally sound. The ones whom aren't- ????
> 
> The major problem here is this, whether you think so or not, too many dog lovers are willing to put ALL dogs, regardless of breed, on the chopping block to save the few whom aren't salvagable or if are won't be able to live the life of a mentally sound dog. This IS the problem. Accept that it is what it is and then do something about it. Don't make it easier for those whom are for BSL by basically giving your 'ok' which is what is happening when we don't join and say "Yes this isn't right. We are going to do away with vicious dogs."
> Any given member of a breed can be vicious, of any breed. We have to make it clear on this point. *Then we have to stand and say that we won't tolerate pets whom attack, maim, and kill.* Not a breed but as individuals. BSL ends when we can all agree, come together, and put an end to aggressive dogs, not aggressive breeds.
> ...


Who said we have to put them down? There are quite a few places that specialize in helping a re-homing the dogs who did the attack. Since this happened in Cali, I looked up these places and many showed up.No one said what the dog did was a good thing. Yes I agree, my family and I had to make sure we could get our first GSD, and thank gawd we were. We can't have a Doberman(Which I will own in the future), Rottweilers, and Pitbulls. I want to be able to own a house or apartment and not have to worry about not being able to have the breeds I love and want.

I just hope the best thing for this dog happens. I hope the best happens for the mother and child. I hope the owner is charged, and doesn't get anymore dogs, since he/she failed to contain their dog.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Please explain to me how you are going to save all the perfectly sound dogs first and then what the plan is to save the sound and not so sound dogs?? 
There are millions of perfectly sound dogs dying every year because there aren't enough good homes. What, pray tell, are we to do with these dogs if we don't euthanize???? I would love to believe there are enough good homes but society has proven there just isn't. 
So when the time, money, space is spent on a dogs whose temperment isn't sound, other dogs do indeed pay- with their lives. I can't live with that.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Please explain to me how you are going to save all the perfectly sound dogs first and then what the plan is to save the sound and not so sound dogs??
> There are millions of perfectly sound dogs dying every year because there aren't enough good homes. What, pray tell, are we to do with these dogs if we don't euthanize???? I would love to believe there are enough good homes but society has proven there just isn't.
> So when the time, money, space is spent on a dogs whose temperment isn't sound, other dogs do indeed pay- with their lives. I can't live with that.


So, I have to wonder, was I wrong to foster all the dogs I did? We specifically took ones that were not sound and needed help. Most of them went on the homes. Two of my four are not sound, and all of them were bad off behaviorally in the beginning. I don't like to be made out like I let tons of other dogs die because of the ones I have saved. This could be the same insane argument people make about ethical breeders and those who get pups from them being responsible for shelter dog deaths- an argument most will not take kindly too.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> So, I have to wonder, was I wrong to foster all the dogs I did? We specifically took ones that were not sound and needed help. Most of them went on the homes. Two of my four are not sound, and all of them were bad off behaviorally in the beginning. I don't like to be made out like I let tons of other dogs die because of the ones I have saved. This could be the same insane argument people make about ethical breeders and those who get pups from them being responsible for shelter dog deaths- an argument most will not take kindly too.


I agree with this completely. There are people who will foster problem dogs and those dogs get adopted. Is it bad for people to buy from good breeders, when their are many good dogs in shelters? So the argument is kind of pointless.

We are not saying we want to and have to save all the dogs in the world. We would love to, but we are trying to save as many as we can.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Please explain to me how you are going to save all the perfectly sound dogs first and then what the plan is to save the sound and not so sound dogs??
> There are millions of perfectly sound dogs dying every year because there aren't enough good homes. What, pray tell, are we to do with these dogs if we don't euthanize???? I would love to believe there are enough good homes but society has proven there just isn't.
> So when the time, money, space is spent on a dogs whose temperment isn't sound, other dogs do indeed pay- with their lives. I can't live with that.


There aren't even enough homes for the sound ones. Each dog, sound or not, is lucky to get a home. Every dog deserves a chance at a good life.

You might as well go after the good breeders, because they are taking away homes from perfectly sound dogs who are in shelters. 

We would love to save all the dogs, but right now we try and save all the dogs we can.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> So, I have to wonder, was I wrong to foster all the dogs I did? We specifically took ones that were not sound and needed help. Most of them went on the homes. Two of my four are not sound, and all of them were bad off behaviorally in the beginning. I don't like to be made out like I let tons of other dogs die because of the ones I have saved. This could be the same insane argument people make about ethical breeders and those who get pups from them being responsible for shelter dog deaths- an argument most will not take kindly too.



Have your dogs attacked or killed anyone? Fear aggression and flat out human aggressive dogs are 2 totally different things (IMO). 
Moo, the Jack Russell I took under my wing is somewhat of a fear aggressive dog. She wouldn't ever flat out just attack someone, whether it be on the street or jump out of a window to do so. If she was cornered and terrified I have no doubt she would bite or snap just to get the opportunity to flee from the 'aggressor' as she would see them. 
My GSD was protective of her humans and home and sure could make it known that she was there but she never would have attacked someone walking by or playing nearby. I knew how far she could be pushed and did not let her or anyone else put her in the position to feel she had to bite. It was my job to protect her from others and herself. I made sure this never happened. I never once had to worry about her flinging herself at an imagined threat. She trusted me enough to know that her warning about something suspicious was just that a warning. 
I know that it is a touchy subject for those whom have rescued dogs with pasts. A bite IMO is much different than a full scale attack. 
As far as good breeders go I honestly don't think they have too much to do with this issue. A good breeder will always do what is best for their breed first and foremost- above anything else. Anyone who breeds and does otherwise is likely not a good breeder. If it's a good breeder then mostly we don't have to worry so much about whether their dogs are tempermentally sound nor should they have had bad past experiences (although this can happen). 
Everyone whom breeds dogs does add to the population but my point is the ones whom add tempermentally unsound dogs and do not care because in the end they get their cash in hand. These are the breeders to watch for.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Have your dogs attacked or killed anyone? Fear aggression and flat out human aggressive dogs are 2 totally different things (IMO).
> Moo, the Jack Russell I took under my wing is somewhat of a fear aggressive dog. She wouldn't ever flat out just attack someone, whether it be on the street or jump out of a window to do so. If she was cornered and terrified I have no doubt she would bite or snap just to get the opportunity to flee from the 'aggressor' as she would see them.
> My GSD was protective of her humans and home and sure could make it known that she was there but she never would have attacked someone walking by or playing nearby. I knew how far she could be pushed and did not let her or anyone else put her in the position to feel she had to bite. It was my job to protect her from others and herself. I made sure this never happened. I never once had to worry about her flinging herself at an imagined threat. She trusted me enough to know that her warning about something suspicious was just that a warning.
> I know that it is a touchy subject for those whom have rescued dogs with pasts. A bite IMO is much different than a full scale attack.
> ...


Oh, now they have had to kill or seriously hurt someone? Before it was just unstable dogs, not any specifics. Fear aggression and human aggression are two different monsters, but they can both result in a serious bite or death. Several of our fosters had at least one dog death under their belt. 
Jonas attacked and bit me badly in the face. He shook and held on. He has attacked another person who entered our house without knocking. Magpie has lunged at a four year old and who knows what damage would have been done if I did not have her on a lead. She aggresses towards children, not the other way around. She also ATTACKED my boyfriend's brother when he came into the bedroom while she was on the bed when she first arrived and had to be restrained. Jack has bitten me twice. Do they count as unstable or are they worthy of saving now? Because all of them are now better dogs that live happy lives.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

My cousin's dog(Sheltie) bit him in the eye, he was a baby too. She was aggressive towards kids, bit me a couple times, bit my sister, scratched my baby brother(we were all young at the time). My aunt and uncle could have easily wanted her to be pts, but decided not to. They gave her to an older couple who offered to take her in, they had no kids. My parents could have easily demanded them to have that dog put down, but they didn't. Was she less worthy to live? Was she unstable?


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I think I had put what I meant into numerous replies on this topic. I am sorry it escaped me the past couple of replies. 

My opinion will always be that dogs whom have attacked without provocation should be PTS. I know it isn't favorable for some but as much as I love all four legged friends I also love humanity (the good anyway) and I love my children. Most of those whom have dogs with HA aren't able to control or handle it. This is why situations like this arise. I am not some cold hearted person whom some may make me out to be because of this view that I have. I do indeed feel for these dogs immensly and never has there been a day when I have rejoiced about an animal being PTS but feel at times it is a need especially when innocents are at risk. 
I know that there are places that will rehabilitate these dogs and it's wonderful that they can and do with most. I am not arguing that. I am not condoning you for having rehabbed your dogs. Mostly during this debate I have been trying to argue my point that dogs can either have baggage after a rough life (nurture) or they can be born into this world with bad temperment (genetics/nature). 
I don't believe a dog whom goes out of it's way to attack a human such as jumping out of a window or running loose down the street and just attacks is a stable animal. I just don't. 
Sorry if this upsets others- this isn't my desire. I just feel that I want someone to protect my children, other children, and all the innocents in between from a vicious dog. I don't live in the jungle so don't watch for tigers and don't live in a neighborhood to have to watch for an aggressive dog whom may charge and attack myself, my family, or anyone else. It's getting out of control. 
Honestly I don't have all the answers as I can't make others be responsible. When these 'owners' do tend to finally get in trouble for their dog attacking someone tragically for the victim it is to late, whether they be killed or sustain injuries. The attack itself can lead to some serious scars inside and out for the victims of others carelessness. It is always some humans fault in the end yes. But I would much rather have stable tempermented dogs around because quite honestly we would see this happening less and less. 
My children and others' children should be able to be outdoors and play without having to worry about Joe Blows dog down the street attacking them. I have that right and they have that right. It doesn't seem that legislation is anywhere near being able to stop these maroons from having HA dogs so tell me what else is there to do????


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> My cousin's dog(Sheltie) bit him in the eye, he was a baby too. She was aggressive towards kids, bit me a couple times, bit my sister, scratched my baby brother(we were all young at the time). My aunt and uncle could have easily wanted her to be pts, but decided not to. They gave her to an older couple who offered to take her in, they had no kids. My parents could have easily demanded them to have that dog put down, but they didn't. Was she less worthy to live? Was she unstable?


Jessie.... This Sheltie snapped at kids whom she was scared of from the sounds of it. Once again, did she go out of her way walking down the street, jumping out of a window, or likewise to attack?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Jessie.... This Sheltie snapped at kids whom she was scared of from the sounds of it. Once again, did she go out of her way walking down the street, jumping out of a window, or likewise to attack?


She hated all kids. She never liked them. Even when my aunt and uncle had their friend's kids over. She hated young people. She wasn't abused at all. SHe also snapped my cousin who was in 20's. She loved my aunt and uncle though. She was a totally nice dog, but if you were young she hated you. SHe growled, snapped and scatched people, to the point the only walked her at night.She wasn't scared, she just hated kids. We don't know why, maybe it because my aunt and uncle spoiled her, we don't know. The people took her in called about a year later saying she was doing well and no one was bit.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I think I had put what I meant into numerous replies on this topic. I am sorry it escaped me the past couple of replies.
> 
> My opinion will always be that dogs whom have attacked without provocation should be PTS. I know it isn't favorable for some but as much as I love all four legged friends I also love humanity (the good anyway) and I love my children. Most of those whom have dogs with HA aren't able to control or handle it. This is why situations like this arise. I am not some cold hearted person whom some may make me out to be because of this view that I have. I do indeed feel for these dogs immensly and never has there been a day when I have rejoiced about an animal being PTS but feel at times it is a need especially when innocents are at risk.
> I know that there are places that will rehabilitate these dogs and it's wonderful that they can and do with most. I am not arguing that. I am not condoning you for having rehabbed your dogs. Mostly during this debate I have been trying to argue my point that dogs can either have baggage after a rough life (nurture) or they can be born into this world with bad temperment (genetics/nature).
> ...


There is alot missing in this story, such WHY the dog did what he did. How are supposed to know if the dog is gone? The kid for sure will not say anything. Thats why dogs who do this should be evaluated to see what caused the dog to attack.

What good does it do for the dog or its breed if we just pts without knowing the real reason for it attacking?Nothing.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

The why would be aggression it seems to me. 

If my children were outside playing and a dog came up and attacked them you can bet that dog would be attacked right back with whatever I could find to protect my babies. Then the owner too if they dare showed their face. 
Would I be a bad mother for allowing my children to play outside? Would I be a horrible one if I stepped in to get them drinks? (Mind you I have 2 teenagers so my youngest wouldn't be left alone) This doesn't always happen to unsupervised children like most seem to believe. A parent may have to step inside for a moment and this should be possible for those whom have older children or others whom are helping watch the children. I used to live in apartments and one neighbor and I would sit outside with the kids, sometimes together and at other times we'd switch off so we could get a little housework done while the kiddos played. My children weren't unsupervised ever and hers weren't either. It's funny how some will judge certain situations without batting an eye yet expect others to not judge. The mother got judged for her coming outside to throw herself over her childs body to protect him- all because she came outside. Didn't know anything other than that and she was judged. That could have been my child, could have been me. 
Blame has been laid and established. This dog should have never been where it was. It should have been properly contained. The facts are that it wasn't and it was aggressive- no matter how you look at it. All the other crap is just heresay and speculation. We don't know if the dog was abused. We don't know the reason the people had the dog. We don't know if the child was unattended although there were apparently adults and other children there. We don't know if the mother was neglectful. Why did the dog get the benefit of the doubt from the start and not the mother? Why was the dog 'abused' and 'misused'? Why was the mother 'neglectful'? 
I think, at times, some people will go out of their way to prove a loved ones' innocence whether it be a pet or person. I was attacked in my driveway by that doberman yet somehow, it was my fault. I was playing too loudly for the dog and driving it crazy. I would dare someone to use that excuse with my own children now. I think I would be the one being called 'mentally unstable'. Lol. 
I have nothing against any dog of any breed but I do have something against those whom keep aggressive animals and then one day- Oops he/she got out and attacked. Oops is not going to heal wounds mentally and physically and will definetly not bring back a dead child or person. Oops doesn't mean a he** of alot when you are the victim or member of the victims family.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> The why would be aggression it seems to me.
> 
> If my children were outside playing and a dog came up and attacked them you can bet that dog would be attacked right back with whatever I could find to protect my babies. Then the owner too if they dare showed their face.
> Would I be a bad mother for allowing my children to play outside? Would I be a horrible one if I stepped in to get them drinks? (Mind you I have 2 teenagers so my youngest wouldn't be left alone) This doesn't always happen to unsupervised children like most seem to believe. A parent may have to step inside for a moment and this should be possible for those whom have older children or others whom are helping watch the children. I used to live in apartments and one neighbor and I would sit outside with the kids, sometimes together and at other times we'd switch off so we could get a little housework done while the kiddos played. My children weren't unsupervised ever and hers weren't either. It's funny how some will judge certain situations without batting an eye yet expect others to not judge. The mother got judged for her coming outside to throw herself over her childs body to protect him- all because she came outside. Didn't know anything other than that and she was judged. That could have been my child, could have been me.
> ...


What really seems silly is that these people knew the dog was aggressive, so why didn't they call AC? Why didn't they do anything about it? If they did this wouldn't have happened. I swear either the video or the repot said the dog was known to be aggressive.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I don't of course know what their AC is like there but many times the dog has to be loose and running for AC to do anything which has always irritated the crap outta me. All owners have to do is acheive minimal care requirements to not get in trouble so to speak. It's quite aggravating. 
Calling and saying the dog is walked on a chain and acts aggressively isn't going to make AC jump and run to your aid. I have seen instances where they will come talk with the owner but other than that.. nothing. It's like the dog has to attack and do bodily harm before something can be done and once again, too late.
The laws that are in place don't seem to be enforced the way they should be. I have never let my dogs run loose. Never allowed them to become a nuisance to neighbors or to have the opportunity to do harm. It hasn't been hard. I have children so I have to be regimented in some ways anyway. I don't understand what is so hard for these dang owners. Confining a dog isn't that hard. It doesn't take Einstein or any other genius to do so and if it did we would be in even more trouble than we are in now. 
Innocents lose their lives, skinkids and furkids alike, due to negligence of an dogs' owner. 
It's sad because in some ways things have gotten alot better for dogs than they used to be. They are becoming more and more a part of the family. And in other ways things stay the same-beaten, starved, neglected.. It sickens me to no end. 
I wish I had the magic answer other than saying that already existing laws need to be enforced more. This would help. 
I am so sick of taking a walk and being accosted by these little yapping ankle biters. The owners sometimes laugh it off as their darling lil Poochie Woochie is hanging off my pants leg. I have called AC on one such person a multitude of times only to hear that it is on record. Blah, blah, blah. I talk to others in the neighborhood whom laugh about it too and then there are those whom just carry sticks everywhere. Personally I want to roll these owners up into balls and punt them over a fence. 
2 days ago while walking my Yorkie Poo I was 'attacked' (albeit in a different way) by a very large exuberant black Lab. The only injuries I sustained were clawa marks on my thighs and stomach. He rushed me and then continued to hump me until his rather useless owner pulled him off. I am not sure whom looked more shell shocked- me or Sassy, my dog. The owner thought it hilarious although he was a bit embarrassed. He said it happens alot when he gets out and that 'the big ol guys just a hor*dog'. 
After the fact it was a bit amusing (story wise anyway) but I keep thinking- what happens when he does this to a small child? He's a big dog, very powerful and even without using his mouth those claws were killers. A child would be at the right size to have facial scratches, cuts and bruises. I would love to be able to explain to the guy that I don't think his big old unneutered male dog is a 'hor*dog' but know it won't get anywhere. I hate to think it but I could see this dog being PTS later on because of incidents like these that apparently keep happening. His dog is well cared for, healthy and happy. His owner is just lacking in smarts and in knowing dog language apparently.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I don't of course know what their AC is like there but many times the dog has to be loose and running for AC to do anything which has always irritated the crap outta me. All owners have to do is acheive minimal care requirements to not get in trouble so to speak. It's quite aggravating.
> Calling and saying the dog is walked on a chain and acts aggressively isn't going to make AC jump and run to your aid. I have seen instances where they will come talk with the owner but other than that.. nothing. It's like the dog has to attack and do bodily harm before something can be done and once again, too late.
> The laws that are in place don't seem to be enforced the way they should be. I have never let my dogs run loose. Never allowed them to become a nuisance to neighbors or to have the opportunity to do harm. It hasn't been hard. I have children so I have to be regimented in some ways anyway. I don't understand what is so hard for these dang owners. Confining a dog isn't that hard. It doesn't take Einstein or any other genius to do so and if it did we would be in even more trouble than we are in now.
> Innocents lose their lives, skinkids and furkids alike, due to negligence of an dogs' owner.
> ...


I hate it when I see random dog wandering or off leash(where they aren't supposed too.) Especially when people are walking.They will be walking and their dog is off leash. I am thinking "You are asking for a lawsuit", how hard is it to keep a dog on leash. My friend has someone on her street who just lets her Chihuahuas roam, and the dogs aren't friendly. I agree, it isn't hard to contain a dog or put it on a leash. If you can't contain the dog, don't own one. If you know your dog is aggressive you need to keep your dog contained to prevent anything bad from happening.


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## -Maxine- (Jun 8, 2010)

Question for JessieLove09:

So actually, your dogs would never ever bite someone for as long as they live? And you're sure about that? You're sure you're such a responsible, stable owner that you have 100% control over your dogs?
I don't think so. Nobody does. Accidents do happen. Some with very bad endings. So in such cases, where it's just an accident like when the dogs are outside with some kids and the parents go inside for just a minute to get some drinks and during that minute the dog bites one of the kids, then I'm not angry at the owners. Nor the dog. Because I know a dog shouldn't be left alone with children but also because it was just one of those every-day things the owners did.
Would you call those owners bad, horrible owners because they didn't watch their dog for one minute? And would you have first put the dog in it's crate or something every time you want to walk back into your house to get a drink? Nobody does that.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

-Maxine- said:


> Question for JessieLove09:
> 
> So actually, your dogs would never ever bite someone for as long as they live? And you're sure about that? You're sure you're such a responsible, stable owner that you have 100% control over your dogs?
> I don't think so. Nobody does. Accidents do happen. Some with very bad endings. So in such cases, where it's just an accident like when the dogs are outside with some kids and the parents go inside for just a minute to get some drinks and during that minute the dog bites one of the kids, then I'm not angry at the owners. Nor the dog. Because I know a dog shouldn't be left alone with children but also because it was just one of those every-day things the owners did.
> Would you call those owners bad, horrible owners because they didn't watch their dog for one minute? And would you have first put the dog in it's crate or something every time you want to walk back into your house to get a drink? Nobody does that.


I know you didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway. If my dog is outdoors with us I either a) call the dog in with me b) have my younger children come in or c) have my 15 year old watch the dog and children. 
My children are well behaved with my dogs anyway but I don't chance anything. This is not only for my childrens safety but my dogs as well. As a responsible parent and owner you have to protect one from the other at times and this can be done as I have for many years now. Most of the time it's a no brainer because my dogs have always followed me anyway with the excaption of my GSD whom was truly my childrens' dog. 
I think also in the very, very short amount of time that getting a drink takes both the children and the dog are probably going to be ok anyway but I don't ever leave that to chance. It can be done and it takes attention to these details but is very doable. 
I think most owners know what their dog is capable of as well as their children. 
I have never had an incident because I never waiver on the clearcut guidelines I have set for my children and my dogs. There isn't room for error. I don't want my dogs or children to pay for a moments worth of ignorance on my part.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

-Maxine- said:


> Question for JessieLove09:
> 
> So actually, your dogs would never ever bite someone for as long as they live? And you're sure about that? You're sure you're such a responsible, stable owner that you have 100% control over your dogs?
> I don't think so. Nobody does. Accidents do happen. Some with very bad endings. So in such cases, where it's just an accident like when the dogs are outside with some kids and the parents go inside for just a minute to get some drinks and during that minute the dog bites one of the kids, then I'm not angry at the owners. Nor the dog. Because I know a dog shouldn't be left alone with children but also because it was just one of those every-day things the owners did.
> Would you call those owners bad, horrible owners because they didn't watch their dog for one minute? And would you have first put the dog in it's crate or something every time you want to walk back into your house to get a drink? Nobody does that.


My dogs are not aggressive, and they are on the BSL list. I know they wouldn't bite anyone, they never have. They are both well trained. I trust them to protect me. They are friendly with everyone. They will not bite people. I also don't let my dog's outside off leash unless it was ok to be off leash such as dog park as dog beach. I have let my dogs out in the backyard though and there were kids out there, but those kids know better. They have dogs themselves. I have control over my dogs, I also trust them. I have met many fellow GSD owners who would leave their kids alone with their dog because they trust their dog, because they are well trained.

I live across the street from an elementary school/daycare, I always have kids wanting to pet them. I let them, because I trust my dogs and I have control over them, and I tell the kids not to get in the dogs face just to be careful. My dog has not shown any aggression towards anyone. He is one of the most gentle dogs I have ever had. I would let him watch my baby(I don't have a kid.) because he is that gentle and has a great temperament. He is from a shelter. But I wouldn't leave my dog alone with people or kids I didn't know or the dog didn't know. I know my dog better than they do.

When I have the dogs outside with kids there is always an adult out there or someone who the dog knows, and I know. Mostly when we have a family get togethers, either I am out there, my dad, my mom, my brother, or my sister is out there. Plus my dogs know my family. 

As for you last part, I would not call them irresponsible, or horrible or bad owners. What they did was in deed their fault. You shouldn't leave your dog with people you don't know. If you are in your house and have friends over and you need to go get a drink, or in your backyard it is still your responsibility to make sure the dog doesn't hurt anyone. No you don't go put the dog in the crate(i never crated my dogs.) Either call the dog to follow you or make sure you are within eyesight or ear shot. Also if your dog is known to be dog aggressive or doesn't like people doing certain things(such as getting in the face, tail pulling, ear tugging) you should tell people that or make sure those people make sure their kid doesn't do it. 

Also if anything bad happens such as your dog hurts a person or child, it is your responsibility, that is your dog, that is your responsibility. If you decide to get a dog, that dog becomes your responsibility, especially if it happens in your home or on your property. Just like you would be responsibility if you had a kid, it is your responsibility to ensure that kid doesn't hurt people, do something stupid.

Your dog, your responsibility.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> I know you didn't ask me but I'll answer anyway. If my dog is outdoors with us I either a) call the dog in with me b) have my younger children come in or c) have my 15 year old watch the dog and children.
> My children are well behaved with my dogs anyway but I don't chance anything. This is not only for my childrens safety but my dogs as well. As a responsible parent and owner you have to protect one from the other at times and this can be done as I have for many years now. Most of the time it's a no brainer because my dogs have always followed me anyway with the *excaption of my GSD whom was truly my childrens' dog.*
> I think also in the very, very short amount of time that getting a drink takes both the children and the dog are probably going to be ok anyway but I don't ever leave that to chance. It can be done and it takes attention to these details but is very doable.
> I think most owners know what their dog is capable of as well as their children.
> I have never had an incident because I never waiver on the clearcut guidelines I have set for my children and my dogs. There isn't room for error. I don't want my dogs or children to pay for a moments worth of ignorance on my part.


I agree 100%. I heard that alot about GSDs. My GSD protects the kids across the street. I was walking him once and the kids wanted to pet the dog, but the daycare lady said no, and I completely understood. Because if anything happened, I would be in trouble, and so would the day care. Because parents are trusting these people to care for their kids and I don't think the parents would like it if they came to pick the kid up and saw a big black dog with their kids. You are liable for your dogs actions. 

Especially these days, even if your dog accidentally did something such as knock the kid over or bump the kid. people are lawsuit happy.


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## -Maxine- (Jun 8, 2010)

JessieLove09:

You always keep saying 'if you know your dog is aggressive....' and 'my dogs aren't aggressive...'
Ok, that's fine. But I'm not talking about aggressive dogs. A non-aggressive dog can bite just as hard without anyone expecting it. 
I agree with you that, in the end, those kind of things always could have been avoided. But I'm just saying that sometimes bad things happen and that it's nearly impossible to watch your dog 24/7.
Even when you are watching your dog, for example, it's still possible that the dog bites. And that you're not Superman and can pull your dog away in just one second. 
Nobody can say that their dogs will never bite. Even when they are under supervision.

Like when you have a BBQ. Your dogs are outside and your kids are outside. Are you constantly watching your dogs? Or just check on them every few minutes? 
I do think that last one is way more likely.

I had a dog named Aura. The sweetest dog I've ever had and great with children. Never hurt a fly in her whole life. But can I say for sure that she'll never bite under any circumstance? No.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

You are right on this point for sure- Any dog can and will bite given the right circumstances. I have always avioded these circumstances because I know my dogs and always understood them enough to know what their thresholds were. 
I also can't stand hearing "Oh my dog would never bite". If there's one thing I've found to be true in life, it's this- Never say Never.


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## -Maxine- (Jun 8, 2010)

Just one last thing...



> Either call the dog to follow you or make sure you are within eyesight or ear shot.


That doesn't matter. The dog can still bite. And by the time you hear that something is wrong, it can already be too late.
I'm not saying it's not good that you are trying to limit the risk, but even those things are technically not enough. 
Unfortunately, nobody can provide full safety.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

-Maxine- said:


> JessieLove09:
> 
> You always keep saying 'if you know your dog is aggressive....' and 'my dogs aren't aggressive...'
> Ok, that's fine. But I'm not talking about aggressive dogs. A non-aggressive dog can bite just as hard without anyone expecting it.
> ...


Yes any dog can bite. But why would anyone just let their dog be with people they don't know or you don't know? GSDs are very good with children. They love kids. But If I couldn't trust my dog I would have someone else go get me a drink or call the dog with me. If I have a dog that didn't like kids I would let him/her near kids. I trust my dog enough to be around them though, since they love kids. But if I had a non-aggressive dog and he or she snapped or anything I would take FULL responsibility of it. Thats my dog my responsibility.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

-Maxine- said:


> Just one last thing...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still no excuse not to take responsibility of your dog's actions. Your dog your responsibility. I don't think a non-aggressive dog would just randomly go "I think I am going to bite someone today." That just seems silly. I know I can't be with the dog 24/7, but I still need to take responsibility if something MY dog did. But I trust my dogs enough to not bite anyone. I also know my dogs well enough to know what would tick them. If they did bite it would be a burglar or something. I have GSDs, very loyal, smart, protective and many other qualities, but if in the wrong hands, it can't be good.

I don't think that my GSDs will never bite, I know they can, but I trained them and trust them enough not to.


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## -Maxine- (Jun 8, 2010)

JessieLove09 said:


> Still no excuse not to take responsibility of your dog's actions. Your dog your responsibility. I don't think a non-aggressive dog would just randomly go "I think I am going to bite someone today." That just seems silly. I know I can't be with the dog 24/7, but I still need to take responsibility if something MY dog did. But I trust my dogs enough to not bite anyone.



I never said I wouldn't take responsibility for it if my dogs would bite someone.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

-Maxine- said:


> I never said I wouldn't take responsibility for it if my dogs would bite someone.


Thats they way I read it, especially in your first posts.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

a bite does not an aggressive dog make.


a bite can be an indicator of ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

here's the three examples that pop off the top of my head

fear
health conditions like seizures
an attempt to keep a slaphappy child in line


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> a bite does not an aggressive dog make.
> 
> 
> a bite can be an indicator of ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT THINGS.
> ...


Great point.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

JessieLove09 said:


> My cousin's dog(Sheltie) bit him in the eye, he was a baby too. She was aggressive towards kids, bit me a couple times, bit my sister, scratched my baby brother(we were all young at the time). My aunt and uncle could have easily wanted her to be pts, but decided not to. They gave her to an older couple who offered to take her in, they had no kids. My parents could have easily demanded them to have that dog put down, but they didn't. Was she less worthy to live? Was she unstable?


Shelties are my breed so it's hard for me to say this but IMO, she should have been pts. I've seen people say, mostly online, that the don't have kids, no big deal but pretty much no one can say for certainty that they can guarantee their dog won't be around kids. Older couple doesn't matter, at some point, there's a good chance the dog could meet kids: nieces, nephews, grandchildren, kids of friends/family members, neighborhood kids, et. I think this is why some shelters and rescues won't rehome a known biter. Too much liability. Our kids are grown but we have grandchildren who visit so any dog that comes here has to be tolerant of kids. They don't have to like kids, just be tolerant of them in the house. Would I bring a dog in who had ever bitten anyone? Nope, too much of a chance to take. All this is JMO of course


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> Shelties are my breed so it's hard for me to say this but IMO, she should have been pts. I've seen people say, mostly online, that the don't have kids, no big deal but pretty much no one can say for certainty that they can guarantee their dog won't be around kids. Older couple doesn't matter, at some point, there's a good chance the dog could meet kids: nieces, nephews, grandchildren, kids of friends/family members, neighborhood kids, et. I think this is why some shelters and rescues won't rehome a known biter. Too much liability. Our kids are grown but we have grandchildren who visit so any dog that comes here has to be tolerant of kids. They don't have to like kids, just be tolerant of them in the house. Would I bring a dog in who had ever bitten anyone? Nope, too much of a chance to take. All this is JMO of course


My aunt and uncle lived in this condo place for a while and knew the couple. The couple had no kids of their own and were moving out. They thought aboutthe shelter but if the dog if did get adopted dout they didn't want the dog to be with some random people. Thats why they gave it to couple.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Personally I can not find fault with the parent here. It is a sad day indeed if your child can not be right outside the window playing. The parents was obviously close enough to hear the child in distress. Are children no longer to be allowed to be right outside without a parent being a step behind? 
And there is not a lot of information about who the other children were, or how old. Maybe the child was being watched by a 12 year old sibling or neighbor's child?


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

ozzy29 said:


> Personally I can not find fault with the parent here. It is a sad day indeed if your child can not be right outside the window playing. The parents was obviously close enough to hear the child in distress. Are children no longer to be allowed to be right outside without a parent being a step behind?
> And there is not a lot of information about who the other children were, or how old. Maybe the child was being watched by a 12 year old sibling or neighbor's child?


It has already been agreed that its not the mom's fault. Yes, there is alot of information that is missing.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Do you honestly believe that there is a home for every dog and cat born in the US?


For dogs, yes. Cats are horribly overpopulated, but this isn't true for dogs. I don't know where to find all the links, but look up many of the pro-breeding threads on this forum. There ARE enough good homes for all dogs born in this country. There are not enough dogs in shelters to fill the demand. The problem is getting those dogs to the right homes. All shelters can dramatically decrease their kill rate with just a few changes. I'll try to find that link, at least.

The animal sheltering system in the U.S. is NOT designed to help animals. The individual shelter workers might care about the animals, but the system is against them. The U.S. shelter system is designed to dispose of unwanted pets in a tidy, sanitized manner, in a way that doesn't make the general public feel guilty, or make them think about the problem more than they want to. 




MooMoosMommy said:


> There are millions of perfectly sound dogs dying every year because there aren't enough good homes.


There are currently "only" about 1 million dogs killed in shelters in the U.S. Of course even this number is unacceptable. But many of those are elderly or terminally ill dogs whose owners can't afford having them PTS at the vet. The shelter dog problem is entirely solvable. It just takes some extra work.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Willowy said:


> For dogs, yes. Cats are horribly overpopulated, but this isn't true for dogs. I don't know where to find all the links, but look up many of the pro-breeding threads on this forum. There ARE enough good homes for all dogs born in this country. There are not enough dogs in shelters to fill the demand. The problem is getting those dogs to the right homes. All shelters can dramatically decrease their kill rate with just a few changes. I'll try to find that link, at least.
> 
> *The animal sheltering system in the U.S. is NOT designed to help animals. The individual shelter workers might care about the animals, but the system is against them. The U.S. shelter system is designed to dispose of unwanted pets in a tidy, sanitized manner, in a way that doesn't make the general public feel guilty, or make them think about the problem more than they want to. *
> 
> ...



Sorry but I have to disagree with that part, because NOT all shelters are designed to go against it. The shelter I volunteer at is not government funded or a sister organization with ASPCA or SPCA. It is called spcaLA, but it is NOT its sister organization. It has nothing to do with that organization. They are funded public donations only. They do everything in their power to help the dogs in their care, recently they were able to full-time vet(they had volunteer vets). Also we help with all the animals with their problems whether its medical or behavioral. They have a *93% adoption rate* and we have gotten so many compliments on our facilities and our programs and how well we care for the animals in our care.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JessieLove09 said:


> They have a *93% adoption rate* and we have gotten so many compliments on our facilities and our programs and how well we care for the animals in our care.


Yes, and any shelter can do this. I don't mean that every shelter is against caring for the animals, but the SYSTEM is against them...it's hard for shelters to break out of the mold and actually HELP the animals. That was my point.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Yes, and any shelter can do this. I don't mean that every shelter is against caring for the animals, but the SYSTEM is against them...it's hard for shelters to break out of the mold and actually HELP the animals. That was my point.


Sorry I read your post backwards.lol


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Wow, reading everything and all the views on who is at fault, the dog, the owner, the parent, I really wonder.
There is not a lot of information given in the article and it was very biased. The owner left the dog inside. I would never expect my dog to jump out of a window. It does not seem to be negligent. The owner left thinking the dog was in the home.
It was an a terrible accident!


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