# Listen to Breeder or Vet?



## DaBearSox (Feb 25, 2010)

We have a 10 week old German Shepherd puppy. Our breeder says not to feed her puppy food but our vet says she is wrong and that we should only feed her large breed puppy food..

And also if adult is the right choice how much should we feed her?


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## iim7v7im7 (Feb 1, 2010)

What foods specifically are each recommending?


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## DaBearSox (Feb 25, 2010)

iim7v7im7 said:


> What foods specifically are each recommending?


Breeder - Health food for dogs - Breeder's choice

Vet - Any premium brand large puppy food (wellness, innova, orijen)


The Vet also recommended Science Diet, which the breeder didn't even put on her list of recommended foods because she said it is horrible.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

A lot of times puppy food as too much calcium and protein I believe it is and causes rapid bone growth, even in large breed puppy food. We made this mistake with Frag(our GSD puppy), and he went through a very quick growth spurt that I believe made irrepairable damage to his bones and joints and we are now worrying that he may become dysplastic.


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

i would personally look into an ALS (all life stages) food. i have a golden retriever. i kept her on puppy food until 5 months, then i switched to adult. i am completely happy with the results. i currently feed innova adult red meat bites.

the entire point is to deliver the appropriate amount of nutrients and then to slow down growth because puppy food is very nutrient rich and encourages fast growth. be wary of high calcium/phosphorous ratios in all foods because larger breeds are susceptible to joint/dysplasia/bone development issues.

also, avoid grain-free foods until your pup is 1 year old or more.

vets commonly are not well-rounded when it comes to nutrition. heck, they recommend science-diet, don't they? no thanks.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

tonisaysss said:


> also, avoid grain-free foods until your pup is 1 year old or more.


Why do you recommend avoiding grain-free foods until a year old?


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Both puppy chows and adult or ALS foods vary. Whatever you feed, make sure it is less than 1.5% calcium typical or by analysis. One way to avoid problems is to stick to what the puppy was weaned on. I always do. It has worked well on 20 puppies. Your vet may not be up on the best practices for large breed puppies. I don't think you can go wrong continuing the Health food for dogs if it is available. Plenty of reports here of people switching to ''better'' food and having trouble. 

Those in the position to know large breeds best, the service dog schools, make an early switch to ALS foods to avoid the fast growth puppy chows are formulated to produce. The large breed ones may not be as bad as the regular ones, but still tend to be too rich. 

My local vet is a specialist with a national practice treating large breed joint problems. He says wean them on adult. 

How much? A half cup or more each of 3 times a day getting up to a full cup before long. With Shepherds, you are lucky if they eat enough to hide their ribs. Young ones seldom will eat enough to get fat. Just feed a concentrated, meat based food.


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> tonisaysss said:
> 
> 
> > also, avoid grain-free foods until your pup is 1 year old or more.
> ...


too high in calcium/phos.

natura is one of the only companies that i've found that will openly say that foods like EVO is not suitable for puppies, particularly large breeds. the truth is that ALL grain-free's (except for the orijen formula because they toyed with it to be so) is not suitable for puppies. other companies unfortunately are not as up to date on this matter and still continue to claim that their grain-free is ALS when it's NOT.

many people also experience UTIs in puppies when they're fed grain free such as evo. i don't know WHY exactly, but it's fairly common.


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## iim7v7im7 (Feb 1, 2010)

DaBearSox said:


> Breeder - Health food for dogs - Breeder's choice
> 
> Vet - Any premium brand large puppy food (wellness, innova, orijen)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. I now can answer your question regarding your German Shepherd pup. Lets review the key ingredients and nutrition information.

*Breeders Choice Health Food For Dogs*
_*Chicken Meal*, Brown Rice, Ground Rice, *Lamb Meal*, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat_

This kibble is 24% protein and 14% fat and claims 1.70% calcium which is only accurate to +0.5% so it could be as high as 2.2% and meet AAFCO labeling requirements. It is 4130 kcal/kg and 400 kcal a cup. It is $54.50 for a 35 lb. bag.

I really don't view this as an adult food vs. puppy food arguement. This food is "OK" in my view in that there are foods with better ingredients and some with worse. For what it costs, I feel there are better choices available for you to consider. For example, the _Orijen Puppy_ that your vet recommended.

*Orijen Puppy Large:*
_Fresh deboned chicken, *chicken meal*, *turkey meal*, russet potato, fresh deboned salmon, *herring meal*, sweet potato, peas, fresh deboned lake whitefish, fresh deboned walleye, chicken fat _

This kibble is 42% protein and 20% fat and claims 1.50-1.70% calcium which which is defined by an upper and lower limit. It is 3900 kcal/kg and 450 kcal a cup. It is $61.50 for a 29.4 lb. bag.

I would definitely choose the _Orijen Puppy Large_ for the following reasons:

(1) The key ingredients are much better in that they have 3 identified meals vs. two in the other food. Also note that the other protein sources are boned to insure control of the calcium content because there is bone in the meals. The _Orijen_ has better control over the calcium content, despite similarities in the labels(their adult foods do as well). I would also point out that the higher % of animal protein is more appropriate for your pup who is a carnivore.

(2) The cost is quite similar due to the higher caloric density of the Orijen (no rice or oatmeal to bulk it up). I estimated for a 10 week old German Shepherd weighing 15 lb. you would feed 1.8 cups of _Orijen Puppy Large_ and 2.1 cups of _Breeder's Choice Health Food for Dogs_. This works out to $0.99 per day for Orijen and $0.86/day for Breeder's Choice.

(3) The issues with large breed puppies (most studies conducted with Great Danes) having bone growth abnormalities based on food intake is based upon:

(a) overfeeding the animals causing obesity during growth
(b) high calcium content >3%. 

I like _Orijen _because you know what is in the food. 

Many foods express lower numbers (e.g. 1.2% etc), but these are minimum numbers or not defined and are open to AAFCO labeling variance rules of +0.5% when the number is <2.5%. You will hear from many folks that 1.5-1.7% is too high of a % of calcium. But I would point out that it ~1/2 the demonstrated dose that caused abnormalities and that percentages are not what you should look at. What you care about is total daily intake (TDI) based on mass/day. My point being that if you have a less nutrient dense food that you feed a greater mass of per/day even if it has the same percentage, you have delivered a higher dose by mass.

Good Luck with your pup,

Bob


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## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

Wellness also advises not to feed its CORE line to puppies.


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

sagira said:


> Wellness also advises not to feed its CORE line to puppies.


great to know! thank you.


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## DaBearSox (Feb 25, 2010)

Bob,

Great info...

We had weened her off the Health food for dogs and started with Wellness Large Breed puppy....we found that this food may be too rich for her sensitive GSD stomach...The orijen looks really rich as well...and we still have a huge bag of the health food for dogs. We will probably get her back on the Heath food for dogs until the bag is gone and then maybe change to something with some better ingrediants.


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

DaBearSox said:


> Bob,
> 
> Great info...
> 
> We had weened her off the Health food for dogs and started with Wellness Large Breed puppy....we found that this food may be too rich for her sensitive GSD stomach...The orijen looks really rich as well...and we still have a huge bag of the health food for dogs. We will probably get her back on the Heath food for dogs until the bag is gone and then maybe change to something with some better ingrediants.


i may be wrong, but most pet stores/petco/petsmart will let you bring the food back for store credit. maybe you kind find something else that will work.


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## DaBearSox (Feb 25, 2010)

tonisaysss said:


> i may be wrong, but most pet stores/petco/petsmart will let you bring the food back for store credit. maybe you kind find something else that will work.


Yep, we are going to do that with the wellness that we have...however the health food for dogs was bought at a Wag n Wash down in Colorado Springs (2 hour drive) where it was special ordered for the breeder...there are none of those stores here in Denver


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Those in the position to know large breeds best, the service dog schools, make an early switch to ALS foods to avoid the fast growth puppy chows are formulated to produce. The large breed ones may not be as bad as the regular ones, but still tend to be too rich.


I thought the guide school you foster for used labs? Are they considered large breed dogs now days?


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I thought the guide school you foster for used labs? Are they considered large breed dogs now days?


Of course they are. Unless the food question comes from a small breed owner, then they're small breeds.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

haha, of course, why didn't I think of that?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Another reason they say don't go grain free before a year on pups is that their developing GI is sooo easily aggrivated the fiber helps developing GI systems to regulate.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

tonisaysss said:


> too high in calcium/phos.
> 
> natura is one of the only companies that i've found that will openly say that foods like EVO is not suitable for puppies, particularly large breeds. the truth is that ALL grain-free's (except for the orijen formula because they toyed with it to be so) is not suitable for puppies. other companies unfortunately are not as up to date on this matter and still continue to claim that their grain-free is ALS when it's NOT.
> 
> many people also experience UTIs in puppies when they're fed grain free such as evo. i don't know WHY exactly, but it's fairly common.


They are not all too high. Blue wilderness and nature's variety rabbit both have low calcium phousphorous. There are also horizon and GO! Large breed grainfree puppy foods and I bet those have resonable levels as well. A grainfree food can be found the owner just needs to research as always.


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## iim7v7im7 (Feb 1, 2010)

DobManiac said:


> They are not all too high. Blue wilderness and nature's variety rabbit both have low calcium phousphorous. There are also horizon and GO! Large breed grainfree puppy foods and I bet those have resonable levels as well. A grainfree food can be found the owner just needs to research as always.


The whole calcium intake needs to be evaluated on a total daily intake (TDI) basis and not a percentage basis. For example if you were to compare two foods that people might feel are radically different based on label claims:


_Innova Large Breed Puppy: 0.90%
[*]Orijen Adult: 1.5-1.7%_
(1) You need to first understand that AAFCO labelling allows Natura to have as much as +0.5% above the label claim (1.4%) when a formulation is under 2.5%.

(2) You need to look at the relative caloric intake (kg/cup) to determine daily intake and you need to understand the kcal/kg to determine a mass for the cups being fed.

(3) You can then determine the total daily intake of calcium. For the two foods above, being fed to a 10 week old, 15 lb. puppy the TDI of calcium for the two kibbles would be between 2.1-3.2 g for _Innova Lg. Breed Puppy_ and 3.1-3.5 g for _Orijen Adult_.

My point is the divergency between formulations may be far less than you think when you work through the numbers.


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

My vet goes with feeding Lg. Puppy Food until about 3-4 months or until over 60# than switch to adult. You'll probably get a different opinion from all. 

My suggestion would be to do your own research. I think these 2 dog food sites are very good.

Sabine Contreras, Canine Care & Nutrition Consultant 
Main Page:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main
Puppy feeding
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=feeding_puppies

http://www.dogaware.com/


Good luck and let us know what you decide.


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## apoirier594 (Aug 30, 2009)

This may have been mentioned. 
But you should a feed a Premium Adult dog food for your pup. Don't buy puppy food. We have used it in the past with no issues, but it can cause rapid bone growth and he/she won't be as solid, like you may have problems down the road.


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## MastiffMom89 (Mar 2, 2010)

Hey everybody! I'm new here and was asked to swing by in order to share my knowledge on the subject by someone who had been reading this thread. I'm no expert, but as a mastiff owner and possible future breeder, my number one concern is evenly growing puppies with no health problems. I spend a lot of time reading studies and doing research.

So first... I'm just going to post the link to this study:
http://www.amstaff.net/HD1.html

There are several others out there that say just the same things. Google it. 

Second is a little myth vs factoid sheet that I wrote up for another forum I'm on:


> After constantly going around and correcting myths, giving advice, etc, I have decided to compile a thread to help new owners of large breed puppies pick out a proper kibble, dispel any myths, and shoot straight from the hip with facts. Wherever I can, I will try to cite sources, but so much of this information is contained in my head, I can't remember where I learned it all.
> 
> Myth: Too much protein will make my large breed puppy grow too fast, and hurt him.
> 
> ...


I apologize for sounding like a know-it-all...This probably wasn't the best introduction, but large breed puppy nutrition is a passion of mine. Feel free to seek out any of the information I've shared for yourself.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

im sorry but some of your "myth fact" stuff is wrong. like the part that says large breed puppy foods are formulated for them. the truth of that is a lot of those "large breed" puppy formulas just have more added glucosamine and chondroitin to make you feel better, AND they have really high calorie levels. one of the ONLY puppy foods i like for any large or giant breed is Eagle Pack Holistic Large and Giant Breed Puppy. it has had TONS of studies conducted and has been properly formulated to keep a slow, steady growth to a puppy.

also you said protein isnt a culprit? sorry but it is. as protein increasesin a food, the kcals increase, a food too high in kcals for a pup can lead to growth diseases. so yes, your protein does have to be watched.

your calcium to phosphorus level SHOULD be balanced.... from what i gather with what you said of the study, there is no real control. BOTH with a balanced phosphorus level and imbalanced phosphorus level to the calcium did not matter because the calcium level was in excess to begin with. how can you conclude anything about phosphorus if you are already giving a high dose of calcium known to increase the incidence of disease?

Also in that study.... which... wasnt really a study- basically the guy just took a bunch of other peoples studies and combined them into a big lump.... anyway- i would have liked to see things about HOD and Pano. these are the real growth diseases that are not influenced by genetics, and it says (from what i read so far) nothing about either in it. HD and OCD are both genetically influenced. HOD is not, and Pano is most likely not, but it has not been 100% determined yet on that. though german shepherds are the most prone to pano

i also want to add that after being through a growth disease with my dog, i have researched it extensively.


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## MastiffMom89 (Mar 2, 2010)

Hey, all I did was quote from STUDIES that I read, not myths and old wives tales perpetuated in the giant breeds. I can post a thousand more links to studies done that say protein isn't the culprit.
Look at a bag of large breed puppy food. Read the calcium levels. How surprising is it that they end up being exactly what a large breed puppy needs? (I'm talking a quality food here, not ol' roy). How surprising is it that regular puppy food has higher levels of these and other ingredients? These foods were FORMULATED to control growth.
Since you've researched it so extensively, please point me to these studies you have read. I imagine that they are current studies?


http://www.dogworld.co.za/info/health_check/Nutrition_Large_Breed.pdf

http://www.heartypet.com/blog/?p=66

http://www.hilarywatson.com/puppies.pdf

http://www.beechmountanhosp.ca/feedinglgebreed.html

http://www.thensome.com/hod.htm

https://www.msu.edu/~silvar/hips.htm

http://www.doglogic.com/debaunprotein.htm

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/8/2151S

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12421852

Also having been through a growth disorder, I'm sure you are also aware that sometimes it's just plain genetics. Sometimes these breeds grow too fast, no matter what you do. Sometimes we take what we thought was the right information and used it incorrectly. Nothing is infallible, but having raised a MASTIFF on a food with over 40% protein (Orijen) with no growth disorders, and another mastiff on raw (they are now both on raw), I'd have to say my personal experience, *surprise*, matches all of the current science.
BTW, HOD can also be a vaccine reaction. Being in Danes, I'm sure you are quite aware of that, but in case you weren't, you might want to look that up.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

MastiffMom89 said:


> Hey, all I did was quote from STUDIES that I read, not myths and old wives tales perpetuated in the giant breeds. I can post a thousand more links to studies done that say protein isn't the culprit.


 i did NOT say protein is the culprit, i said it has to be watched because kcals increase as protein increases- kcals are the problem, but both typically rise in relation.


MastiffMom89 said:


> Look at a bag of large breed puppy food. Read the calcium levels. How surprising is it that they end up being exactly what a large breed puppy needs? (I'm talking a quality food here, not ol' roy). How surprising is it that regular puppy food has higher levels of these and other ingredients? These foods were FORMULATED to control growth.
> Since you've researched it so extensively, please point me to these studies you have read. I imagine that they are current studies?


 if you are talking "quality food" only- then maybe you should state that?? and no, actually i have found many to be too low calcium, or too high kcals/calcium, etc.



MastiffMom89 said:


> Also having been through a growth disorder, I'm sure you are also aware that sometimes it's just plain genetics. Sometimes these breeds grow too fast, no matter what you do. Sometimes we take what we thought was the right information and used it incorrectly. Nothing is infallible, but having raised a MASTIFF


 wait great danes arent mastiffs now? i hope you know there are many many breeds of mastiffs....



MastiffMom89 said:


> on a food with over 40% protein (Orijen) with no growth disorders, and another mastiff on raw (they are now both on raw), I'd have to say my personal experience, *surprise*, matches all of the current science.


 raw is a different story than dog food all together.... oh and sorry i had to edit to add here- raising ONE dog on something and having it turn out ok is NOT scientific evidence of ANYTHING. 



MastiffMom89 said:


> BTW, HOD can also be a vaccine reaction. Being in Danes, I'm sure you are quite aware of that, but in case you weren't, you might want to look that up.


 hard to have been vaccine related if she didnt have a vaccine..... maybe i dont know.... because the "breeder" was feeding the pups ol roy?!


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## MastiffMom89 (Mar 2, 2010)

GreatDaneMom said:


> i did NOT say protein is the culprit, i said it has to be watched because kcals increase as protein increases- kcals are the problem, but both typically rise in relation.
> if you are talking "quality food" only- then maybe you should state that?? and no, actually i have found many to be too low calcium, or too high kcals/calcium, etc.
> 
> wait great danes arent mastiffs now? i hope you know there are many many breeds of mastiffs....
> ...


There is only one type of Mastiff with a capital M. The English Mastiff is no longer referred to as the "English" mastiff. 
And mastiffs and danes are both giant breeds and this thread was in regards to nutrition for giant/large breeds.
I'm still waiting on the evidence you have to support what you said.


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