# what's the diff between Lhasa Apso, Shih-Tzu and Havanese?



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Sorry, but all small furry little poofy dogs look the same to me. And so I am trying to educate myself. What would you say the main differences in temperment and body type is between these 3 breeds? I know that the Havanese and Shih-Tzu are in the Toy group and the Lhasa Apso is in the Non-Sporting group. But other than that they seem similar in looks to me.

I know that the Lhasa Apso was bred to be an alert dog, a guard dog in Tibet. So does that make the breed more edgy? more barky?

Any owners of these dogs want to speak up? Educate me?


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Sorry I have no idea but I just wanted to add I can't tell Bichons from toy poodles. Would be nice if someone could clear this up!

The only thing I think of is Shih Tzus have very flat faces while the other two don't? Not sure.


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Havanese always have white coats (those I've met, anyway). They look like Maltese and Bichons (they're grouped together in this group called "bichon" group which includes Maltese, Bichons, Havanese, Coton du Tulears, etc.)

Shih Tzus usually don't come in white (I've never seen one), and their fur looks different from Havanese and Poodle fur (it's straighter than poodle fur).

Toy poodles are usually smaller than Bichons too. They're closer in size to Maltese. Their fur = curlier, and they don't have flat faces. Bichons typically have flat faces, like Shih Tzus.. 

I usually tell them apart by coat type.. but it's quite hard to tell apart Havanese, Bichons, Maltese, Cotons, etc.. because they look so alike. The biggest diff. I usually notice is in size.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

All I know is I loooove the havanese I met. Friendly, cute little happy dogs.

Don't know much about the other two and I can't tell a lot of the fluffy little dogs apart at all.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

lucidity said:


> Havanese always have white coats (those I've met, anyway). They look like Maltese and Bichons (they're grouped together in this group called "bichon" group which includes Maltese, Bichons, Havanese, Coton du Tulears, etc.)


Psst:










Thats a havanese.

My favorite of the bichon types is the lowchen.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

lucidity said:


> Havanese always have white coats (those I've met, anyway). They look like Maltese and Bichons (they're grouped together in this group called "bichon" group which includes Maltese, Bichons, Havanese, Coton du Tulears, etc.)
> 
> Shih Tzus usually don't come in white (I've never seen one), and their fur looks different from Havanese and Poodle fur (it's straighter than poodle fur).
> 
> ...


I've never met a flat faced Bichon Frise


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Flatter in comparison to Poodles.

Read this description on wikipedia on Bichons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bichon

_They vary in appearance, but all have tails curled over their back, a coat that is hair rather than fur that doesn't readily shed, *short snouts*, drop ears, and large, dark eyes._


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

lucidity said:


> Flatter in comparison to Poodles.
> 
> Read this description on wikipedia on Bichons: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bichon
> 
> _They vary in appearance, but all have tails curled over their back, a coat that is hair rather than fur that doesn't readily shed, *short snouts*, drop ears, and large, dark eyes._


Oh ok I thought you ment like a Shihtzu or a pug, ya their shorter than poodles

Shih Tzu









Bichon Frise









Toy Poodle


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Lol.. yeah. Shoulda made it clearer.. I think Maltese actually have really flat faces, though. More so than Havanese of Bichon Frises.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Havanese come in all different colors, not just white. Bichons and Maltese are always white although some can have a little tan on their ears.

Saw some puppies in a Pet Store once. They were white with black patches and when I asked the sales person, she said they were from a white Maltese and a black Poodle and that was why they were black and white.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Shih tzus are finer boned that the Lhasa Apso and have slightly flatter faces and are much smaller and shorter bodied. Lhasa's often have a relatively pronounced underbite. Temperament wise the Shi Tzus are true lap/companion dogs where Lhasa's have a definite independent "guardian" type personality.

Bichon are much different body and head wise from min poodles, the coat is what throws people off. Bichon are sturdier build and are always white and have a feathered tail rather than the usual poodle dock tail.

Havanese have silkier hair than the bichon, are slighter boned and come in MANY different colours. Their faces are not short like the brachycephalic dogs, they have a pronounced muzzle but not as long or sharp as a poodle. They are often mistaken for shi poo mixes.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

ahh, thanks Cracker.

My mother has a Bichon. They do not have short snouts. I'm familiar with the relationship between the Bichon family.

I can tell a Bichon from a Toy poodle from a Maltese. But I can't tell a Lhasa Apso from a Shih-Tzu. I rarely see Havanese. I did run into their yearly national convention by chance, was at a hotel where I had a meeting, so I didn't get a chance to browse the convention hall. But I did see dogs coming and going....

I covet a Havanese. My husband abhors them. They are not all white, but come in all sorts of colors. I love the sables. And there is even a division amongst the breeders between Silk Coated neezers and the rest. Lol. I've been researching the breed. They are supposed to be great with children. Bu I was hoping for some personal references. Not "I've seen one at a distance" but more like "I owned one", or "I grew up with a bunch".

I'd love to add a second dog one day. I have a standard schnauzer, and a 3yo daughter. The SS is a saint with my daughter, but I'm not sure I can handle another terrier in the house. One is enough work! So I've been eyeing up the small and fluffy dogs. I love the the minimal shedders. And obviously I need to find a dog that can live in a house with a young child. I figure to add the dog next year, when my daughter is 4. 

A Bichon might be too delicate to be placed with a family with young children. But then again, my mom's dog is 12 lbs and so on the smaller side and that's my perspective. Maybe a larger male would be sturdy enough. Please don't get the impression that I allow my daughter to mis-handle or abuse a dog. I do not. But accidents happen. My daughter has tripped and fallen on the SS once, and the dog was like, Meh no problem kiddo. A smaller dog, a more sensitive dog would not allow that sort of transgression.

So back to the terriers and work. I realize that all dogs take time, and etc. But I am looking for a second dog that isn't as time consuming as a terrier. Don't misunderstand me, I love going to dog obedience classes. I'd love training. And I am committed to training the second dog. I just don't have time for 2 drivey, focused dogs. I'd like the second dog to be more companion dog oriented. To be able to get it's CGC and Therapy Dog certificates. A mellow fellow. So YES I am going to put work into the second dog. But I want the second dog to have a less drivey mental state than the first....

if that makes any sense....


----------



## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Shih Tzu have much flatter muzzles than Lhasa Apsos. In the beginning I couldn't tell them apart, but now it's like night and day. Except that poorly bred Shih Tzu tend to have longer muzzles and look similar to Lhasas.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Bichon are much different body and head wise from min poodles, the coat is what throws people off.


Bichon's are rectangles and Poodles are more square. ie the Bichon, and Havanses have a longer back than a poodle.


----------



## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

lucidity said:


> Lol.. yeah. Shoulda made it clearer.. I think Maltese actually have really flat faces, though. More so than Havanese of Bichon Frises.


Yes, a maltese's muzzle is smaller than all of the breeds mentioned except the shih tzu. I've actually seen malts with smaller muzzles than most shihs I've seen. A maltese should NOT have a longer muzzle, unless it was poorly bred. It is an undesirable trait. In different countries, the muzzle size varies, in Europe they usually have longer muzzles but the standard is totally different than the US one. In Korea, they usually have shorter muzzles than the US. Many people I know get's malt pups shipped to them all the way from reputable breeders in Korea because we like the "babydoll face"-shorter muzzles.

All of the Bichon(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bichon) type of dogs have very different hair textures, besides just being curly. And also bone structure. You really can't tell unless you feel them. 

Shih Tzus and Lhasa Apsos have double coats(check out their standards for reference) The Bichons types, like the Havanese, have single coats. BUT neither of them shed. Shihs, Havanese and Lhasas should NEVER be all white either, and they average about 10 pounds.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

NRB, you need a Havanese, they rock!


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> NRB, you need a Havanese, they rock!


Enabler! I totally want a Havanese. They sound wonderful on paper. Good with children, sturdy for a toy sz breed. But I need more solid info. And if I start calling up breeders and going out to meet their dogs I'm afraid that I'll end up bringing a puppy home. Lol. 

and there is this cutie pie Lhasa Apso on petfinder in my area (sort of) Arrgghh but now is not the perfect time to add a second dog. And b/c of my daughter I'd prefer to get a puppy. So I KNOW it won't be afraid of young children since I'll be raising it.....










His eyes kill me. 

I mean to look at him he looks sort of Havanese like in a puppy cut. But I don't know about the LA temperament. Esp around children if they were bred to be guardian dogs. 

I need a same sz or smaller dog than the SS. I have small car, like to take the dogs along on family vacations and etc. And I'm smitten with the small fluffies.


----------



## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

NRB said:


> Enabler! I totally want a Havanese. They sound wonderful on paper. Good with children, sturdy for a toy sz breed. But I need more solid info. And if I start calling up breeders and going out to meet their dogs I'm afraid that I'll end up bringing a puppy home. Lol.
> 
> and there is this cutie pie Lhasa Apso on petfinder in my area (sort of) Arrgghh but now is not the perfect time to add a second dog. And b/c of my daughter I'd prefer to get a puppy. So I KNOW it won't be afraid of young children since I'll be raising it.....
> 
> ...


Don't those fluffy ones just look like stuffed animals? LOVE it.

My cousin got a LA at 10 weeks old from a BYB and she is just the sweetest/cutest thing. This cousin has a 3 year old, 6 year old, 14 year old but my senile 90 yr old grandmother, with her feral cat. She has the MOST unruley children ever. My cousin wanted to get a maltese at first, even when she saw how much my Gigi disliked her children. LOL A maltese wouldn't last a week with that family!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

NRB said:


> Enabler! I totally want a Havanese. They sound wonderful on paper. Good with children, sturdy for a toy sz breed. But I need more solid info. And if I start calling up breeders and going out to meet their dogs I'm afraid that I'll end up bringing a puppy home. Lol.


I know, I am. I'm not usually one for the fluffy breeds but I love havanese. I've just adored the ones I've met. they're definitely worth a look into imo. Maybe you can change DH's mind! lol Has even met a havanese? I can't imagine meeting one and abhoring them. They're so happy all the time!


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

If you're interested in a Havanese, you might be interested in a Havana Silk Dog, too. They're basically a split-off breed of the Havanese based on a desire to remove the skeletal problems that are in many Havanese lines.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Pai said:


> If you're interested in a Havanese, you might be interested in a Havana Silk Dog, too. They're basically a split-off breed of the Havanese based on a desire to remove the skeletal problems that are in many Havanese lines.


Yup, I mentioned them in one of my posts. I love it that they show soaped views of the dogs online so that you can see the straightness of the legs. I know a guy from another forum that breeds them in NC. He's far enough away that it would be safe for me to email or call him and get more info without falling in love with a dog or puppy.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I have just been googling about looking at some Havanese information.

Havanese, as well as Shih Tzus and Lhasa Apsos, occasionally throw back to shedding (smooth faced) ancestors that some call Shavanese. This is a Shavanese (google images), and you can see what the head would look like without all the fur. I have read Havanese historians that say toy spaniels had an influence, and indeed it can be seen.










This wonderful page below shows pictures of the many, many Havanese colors.

http://www.felici-animali.be/PdC_en_colours.htm

I haven't been able to declare a favorite, but this guy has striking shaded red sable coloring.










SOB


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

NRB said:


> ahh, thanks Cracker.
> 
> My mother has a Bichon. They do not have short snouts. I'm familiar with the relationship between the Bichon family.
> 
> ...


Well, I've never owned a havanese, but we've boarded and groomed several. The havanese I've met have been quiet, sweet, and laid-back, but there are very few breeders in the area and most of them probably came from the same lines. I do like them, but they're a little too "soft" for me.


----------



## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Thanks again for the info. Already knew about the Shavanese. Most of what I know is from internet. Love to hear owner/handler input on temperament.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> Well, I've never owned a havanese, but we've boarded and groomed several. The havanese I've met have been quiet, sweet, and laid-back, but there are very few breeders in the area and most of them probably came from the same lines. I do like them, but they're a little too "soft" for me.


What do you mean by soft? 

When I call a dog soft I mean that they are submissive without being problematic (not submissive urination) Easy to live with, companion dogs. My first dog was like that. Not an obedience/agility/flyball canidate but a great buddy and companion. No issues to work through. My standard schnauzer is NOT soft.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I love soft dogs. 

Anyway, I was googling about the Havanese because they are the one in these three that I have not had experience with.

My sister owned a Lhasa for 13 years. She'd be the first to tell you, and I'd agree, that generally they are much more edgy than a Shih Tzu and have much more of a guarding quality. Hers was not allowed alone in the room with chidren under 14, for good reason, but he was a gem with the family and those he knew well.

The Shih Tzus that I've known have mostly been very laid back easy going "raggamuffin" type of dogs that are easy to handle and low in energy after the first year. They have been a bit more independently minded and stubborn about following commands than the Bichons and Poodles that I've known. 

I find Bichons softer than Shih Tzus and Shih Tzus softer than Lhasas. By that I mean of the bunch, the Bichons would tend to be the most submissive and easiest to train, and most easy going with other animals and even other people. At the same time, I find the Bichon breed tends to more active than the other two, especially when young. I would peg the Shih Tzus the most calm/laid back of the three. That is a quality that I note because it is very important to me.

I have known one Shih tzu that was completely wary of strangers and difficult to handle, but that was the exception. My aunt also has a Bichon the same, and he would be the exception, as usually I find that breed wonderful in temperament. The four other Bichons I've known have all tended to be mostly loyal to a single person in the family, whereas the Shih Tzus have been less so and have had more affection for all the members.

Because they are popular in my area, and have been for 20 years, I've also known quite a few "Teddybear" Shih Tzu x Bichon crosses, and I find their temperaments have been wonderful. At my business I have a customer who brings hers for a visit weekly. She is also her breeder (now retired from breeding) and owns/owned three generations back. Hands down this girl and her mom are the best behaved and temperamented small dogs I've ever met.

I'm not a fan of bearded faces and the non-shedding coats that go with that, so none are a breed for me, but this girl has had me swayed to thinking that way a few times.

SOB


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hmm soft is hard for me to define. I tend to like softer dogs. My shelties were really soft dogs and the paps for the most part are softer dogs, even Mia with all her energy and drive is fairly sensitive and soft.... I think Havanese are too calm and easy going for me. Then again I did purposefully pick Mia so... take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Out of those dogs I think Poodles are the most energetic. The ones I've met (which is a ton of them! Everyone here has one!) are all very energetic and loves to play and run. The Shih Tzus I've met are much calmer and just like to hang around. Even with a bunch of dogs playing, they usually don't join in the chase but will greet and sniff and then go do their own thing. I've only ever met 1 bichon and 2 havanese so I can't say much about those guys.

Poodles and shih tzus in my opinion are not soft. They're not sensitive much and don't mind. LOL our Cavalier King Charles are the most not soft dogs I've ever met, nothing deters them! They don't react much to my emotions and anger and such. With Nia if I get frustrated during a training session, she gets very nervous and won't listen anymore. If she feels like I'm angry, she'll shy away and stop giving me her attention or try new tricks. I do perfer a softer dog also I think just because I feel like they're more in tune with me and not really not caring and just doing their own thing. At times when I'm frustrated she knows I'm not in any condition to do more training so we stop, it's all good.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> LOL our Cavalier King Charles are the most not soft dogs I've ever met, nothing deters them! They don't react much to my emotions and anger and such..


Y'ought to meet the one on my lap right now. He is soft, soft, soft and totally in tune with the emotions in the room around him. I'm the only babysitter allowed as he also tends to have separation anxiety.

Maybe he's the exception?

SOB


----------



## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I thought I'd add a couple of pictures. Show quality Shih Tzu and Lhasas are much easier to tell apart than the average pet.

Here are the Shih Tzu:
http://tai-lanshihtzu.com/girls/girls.html

And Lhasas:
http://www.rushmarlhasas.com/Sires.html


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

I like Shi Tzus with a full face, they look very cute. But keeping the beards clean must be a chore. =/


----------



## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Pai said:


> I like Shi Tzus with a full face, they look very cute. But keeping the beards clean must be a chore. =/


It really is a lot of upkeep! My Shih Tzu is in a modified puppy cut- he always has a full face with beard and topknot.


----------

