# What do you think about e-collars.



## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Haven't seen any thread regarding this issue and I know this can be a very controversial subject, but I'm just curious as to what the general conciencious is regarding electronic collars. Does anyone use them? If so, why? Were they recommended by a professional trainer? What are your thoughts?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I considered one when my dog was young and out of control but I couldn't visualize a situation where it would actually help.

Now she is much more agreeable and responds well to voice commands, but I'd be interested in hearing any enthusiastic reviews from users who have had success with them.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I believe there are better, less risky ways to acheive training. I also think they should ONLY be used by a professional as a last resort, or for snake avoidance.


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## DFrost (Aug 29, 2006)

It depends on what you are using them for. Does the average pet owner need electronics, I wouldn't think so. They are however extremely helpful devices for certain types of training. Dogs that are trained for law enforcement, have to be rock solid both on and off leash. The use of electronics can help achieve that. I do not believe electronics should be used as to administer corrections for behaviors the dog has not learned. That being said, a behavior that has been learned can be proofed at a greater distance, without a leash when necessary. Like many things used in dog training. It is a tool. It has a specific purpose. Used correctly, it can be beneficial. Used improperly, just like any other tool, it can be ineffective.

DFrost


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, I must confess, I actually use them with the boys. I consider it my invisible leash. Since I have always taken the dogs out to local fields, etc for running, I want to know that no matter how far away they are (or at least up to 1 mile) I have control, no matter what. After a very short time they become 'collar smart' and they just have to have the collars on for them to be effective. 

There was one day in particular that I was very glad the dogs were wearing the collars.. We were at our favorite running place, which was a cranberry bog surrounded by woods. Well, didn't a deer decide to see what was going on and the dogs decided to take off after it. I swear if they didn't have the collars on, I'd still be chasing them. It was enough to get their attention back to me so I could call them back.

I have also used the collar to correct some bad behaviors without the correction being connected to me. My last puppy was famous for trying to take dishes out of the sink when I wasn't looking. I put the collar on him, took the other 2 outside and through the window I could see him trying to take dishes out of the sink. Yes, I set him up! Well, I hit the collar and to this day, he has never, ever, done it again. 

When I first got the collars, about 10 years ago, the first thing I did was test the levels on myself. I have never gone above level 2. I've never had to. It's more the surprise element than painful. I don't consider it cruel and used properly they are not at all abusive, they are a great training tool. The professionals use them and the K9 trainers use them as well. As I said, they are great for making corrections that you don't want connected directly to yourself. And, they help to reinforce commands your dog already knows. 

Does that make me a bad person?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

If you are using it correctly no. However be warned, if one of your dogs develops a heart arrythmia, it could harm them. It happened to me and I lost a much loved family member. 

I am considering putting my dogs into snake avoidance class, it is the only training I would allow them to go through with an E collar. I will have them both checked thoroughly before I allow it.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

See, that's something I wasn't aware of. Sorry for your loss. I will now be mindful of that problem.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I have to Renoman, I use it specifically for off leash training when we go up to PA. Mine had a vibrate button on it and when Riley was younger I would hit the pager button if he jumped up on the counters or totally harassed the cat. I had a professional trainer in who taught me how to use it properly. When it is used properly it should not do any harm. It is the equivalent to e-stim you would get from a chiropracter or physical therapist if you had a muscle injury (or an OT would use it on a stroke patient to create a muscle contraction). The frequency should be nothing more than a constant "poke" on the shoulder.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

We achieved our off leash walks/hikes without the use of an e-collar. Now I know obviously, some dogs are going to be harder to train a reliable recall/here command when offleash, my personal experience, is, it was achieved in our household without the use of an e-collar.

With that being said, I own an e-collar, and have used it for a few issues with Roxy. I did use it to proof recalls with both of them, but just used the noise button, I didn't have to stimulate them.

I agree with Dfrost, I think the average pet owner doesn't need an e-collar to achieve "normal" things, unless it's a serious issue, like running off, chasing cars etc. 

I think too many people think the e-collar is a magical fix for everything, when it trully isn't.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> I have to Renoman, I use it specifically for off leash training when we go up to PA. Mine had a vibrate button on it and when Riley was younger I would hit the pager button if he jumped up on the counters or totally harassed the cat. I had a professional trainer in who taught me how to use it properly. When it is used properly it should not do any harm. It is the equivalent to e-stim you would get from a chiropracter or physical therapist if you had a muscle injury (or an OT would use it on a stroke patient to create a muscle contraction). The frequency should be nothing more than a constant "poke" on the shoulder.


You are absolutely right! As I said it is more the element of surprise than pain. I have never gone above level 2 and never had to. My dogs have always been professionally trained, but the e collars are for the times we go out to the field and I want to be rock solid sure I have voice command control over them when they're on the other side of the field. If they even think I'm faking it, they will stand there and thumb their noses at me. That's what I love about GSDs. They will always test you to see what they can get away with.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Good stuff here.

There are lots of tools I'll probably never need, but it's still interesting to here a little about how and when they might be used.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

I guess I stirred the pot here. Wasn't my objective, however, it is what it is.
I use the collar and I make no excuses for it. I feel it works best for my situation and I sought out the knowledge and training to use it correctly before purchasing it. As I said, the professionals use them when training K9s and Schutzhund training uses them often. I agree, that used incorrectly it can be harmful and an abusive device. 

I learned something regarding health issues and the collar and I will be mindful of those issues in the future.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Most people know nothing about E Collars and how they are used. They think they are the way they were 20 years ago, when they were first introduced. I use an E Collar with my dog for recall at distance. When I meet another dog owner and they ask about it, I take it off my dog and ask them to put it on their wrist and activate the collar. They are amzed that all they feel is a slight tingle rather than feeling like they are being electrocuted, as they expected.

You can teach a dog to remote recall, or heel or downstay at a distance, in a small fraction of the time that it would take to do with a ordinary leash and collar. It is also much gentler on the dog than correcting it with a leash and prong collar. Most E Collar negative opinions are made by people that have never used one and don't know anything about them and how they are used. The easiest way to get up to speed on an E Collar is to get a trainer that is experienced in using one, and take a few lessons. You will be amazed at how fast your dog will learn. There is a good DVD that is available that gives a good foundation on how to use an E Collar, but I would still recommend using a Trainer, if one is available in your area. 



Here is another site with info on E Collars ( remote collars) 
http://www.dobbsdogs.com/library/obedience/index.html
Here is a manufacturers web site for one of the better brands of collars
http://www.dogtra.com/




http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm



cshellenberger said:


> I believe there are better, less risky ways to acheive training. I also think they should ONLY be used by a professional as a last resort, or for snake avoidance.


What, may I ask, is the "risk", in using an E Collar? Have you ever used one, and how?



Ginny01OT said:


> I have to Renoman, I use it specifically for off leash training when we go up to PA. Mine had a vibrate button on it and when Riley was younger I would hit the pager button if he jumped up on the counters or totally harassed the cat. I had a professional trainer in who taught me how to use it properly. When it is used properly it should not do any harm. It is the equivalent to e-stim you would get from a chiropracter or physical therapist if you had a muscle injury (or an OT would use it on a stroke patient to create a muscle contraction). The frequency should be nothing more than a constant "poke" on the shoulder.


Many instructors will tell you that the vibrate button on the E Collar will probably startle the dog more than the normal Stim correction. I never use the vibrate on mine.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Captbob said:


> Most people know nothing about E Collars and how they are used. They think they are the way they were 20 years ago, when they were first introduced. I use an E Collar with my dog for recall at distance. When I meet another dog owner and they ask about it, I take it off my dog and ask them to put it on their wrist and activate the collar. They are amzed that all they feel is a slight tingle rather than feeling like they are being electrocuted, as they expected.
> 
> You can teach a dog to remote recall, or heel or downstay at a distance, in a small fraction of the time that it would take to do with a ordinary leash and collar. It is also much gentler on the dog than correcting it with a leash and prong collar. Most E Collar negative opinions are made by people that have never used one and don't know anything about them and how they are used. The easiest way to get up to speed on an E Collar is to get a trainer that is experienced in using one, and take a few lessons. You will be amazed at how fast your dog will learn. There is a good DVD that is available that gives a good foundation on how to use an E Collar, but I would still recommend using a Trainer, if one is available in your area.
> 
> ...


Thank you for backing me up on this. I was beginning to feel alone and adrift out there. You're right a trainer is the best way to go and more and more trainers are turning to the e-collar to reinforce verbal commands and off leash training.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Renoman said:


> Thank you for backing me up on this. I was beginning to feel alone and adrift out there. You're right a trainer is the best way to go and more and more trainers are turning to the e-collar to reinforce verbal commands and off leash training.


Many people are now finding out that they can use them for basic training. I spoke with a trainer that told me she can train a dog so much faster with an E collar, and the dog retains the training so much better than Leash-collar training, that she suggests to all her clients to use the E Collar Training. I watched her train a dog to heel, in about an hour. This dog was an out of control puller, that needed a Prong collar prior to this training, in order to keep it from yanking the owner all over the place. Now the owners 10 year old daughter can walk the dog.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Captbob said:


> Many people are now finding out that they can use them for basic training. I spoke with a trainer that told me she can train a dog so much faster with an E collar, and the dog retains the training so much better than Leash-collar training, that she suggests to all her clients to use the E Collar Training. I watched her train a dog to heel, in about an hour. This dog was an out of control puller, that needed a Prong collar prior to this training, in order to keep it from yanking the owner all over the place. Now the owners 10 year old daughter can walk the dog.


A Police K9 trainer once told me that 1 good correction was better than 100 little nagging corrections. I have found that to be very true.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I have to seriously disagree that e-collars should be used for basic training, why?

Basic training with 99% of the dogs out there in the world does not require an aversive like an e-collar or even a prong.

Both of my dogs, completely different in personality, and how they learn, have a tonne of excercises down pat that were done without the aid of an e-collar, and they aren't "normal" or average pet owner excercises.

When it comes to aversives, I start out with none, than slowly work my way up the ladder, from verbal aversives, to leash corrections and my last resort for some dangerous behaviours from Roxy was the e-collar. Definitely not the first training aid I reach for when we meet an obstacle in training.

I completely agree with, and understand using an aversive like an e-collar for a behavioural issue that is not ceasing with all the other methods, but I guess I'll never understand why someone would choose to use the e-collar as their FIRST and ONLY training tool with a dog.

Renoman- I also agree that one good correction is much better than a bunch of nagging, but what people don't understand, is the e-collar or some more "harsh" aversives, are NOT for every dog. If you slapped an e-collar on my Hades and used it as your only training method, you'd have a dog that didn't want to work. One good correction for my Hades is a sharp verbal correction.

The e-collar is NOT for every dog, and many of the e-collar trainers I've spoken with will agree.

I think the general public needs to be educated about the topic, but it needs to be made clear that it shouldn't be: 1) your only method 2) Your first method.

There are a tonne of less invasive methods out there, that work just fine with 99% of the dog population when it comes to joe average's pet dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> What, may I ask, is the "risk", in using an E Collar? Have you ever used one, and how?


I think if you read a little further down you'll see that I have and lost a dog to one. Which I also think I've discussed SEVERAL times before. Don't care to dredge up bad memories.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Renoman- Don't take offense to this, I hope it doesn't sound offensive, it's not trully  Just some honest questions!

You say that your dogs are now collar smart and they have to wear the collar for it to have an effect correct?

IMO, this is not a good training tool. A good training tool, is just that. You use it, it works, you stop using it, like a crutch. You use it while you have to, than you stop.

My dogs, one which is human agressive, another which is pitbull and can tend to be "gamey" in some situations, are off lead everyday, and have a 100% reliable recall, without any collar on.

Wouldn't a better method, be one that you use, works, and that's it?

I mean, to me, it's comparable to having to use food EVERYTIME as a lure to get your dog to sit. It's not a very good method if you have to use it even after the dog is performing said behaviour right?

That's just my take on how you posted your experience with the e-collar. If your dogs have to use this tool ALL the time to perform said behaviour, it's not a good method, or one that's very "complete", balanced or overall effective.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

No offense taken. My dogs are always professionally obedience trained to voice commands and hand signals. The collar isn't my only method of training, never said it was.

I personally use the collar as I said before 'my invisible leash' when the dogs are running the fields. It is my 'back up' because you never know what's going to happen. I would rather have the collars on them and not use them than not have the collars on and need them.

I also use the collar to address issues that need fixing but I don't want the corrections to be connected to me, I want a definite cause = effect for the dog, i.e. taking dishes out of the sink when I'm not in the room. When I verbally corrected him he was great as long as I was in the room. Still did it when I left the room. He needed a correction that had no link to me. Like dogs that get into the trash. How many do you know do it right in your face? They usually wait until no one's looking, right? If going into the trash becomes unpleasant and no one is around then the correction is connected directly to the trash and not any one person. 

No, the collar doesn't work for every dog, but for some dogs it is the only way to change a specific unwanted behavior or to confirm a command. I've seen some hard working, high drive dogs that could only be controlled with the use of a collar because they were so intense and so driven to do their jobs they did not hear verbal commands.

Yeah, these guys are collar smart - they see the collars come out and they know they're going for a run. They also respond better to commands when they have the collar on .... like deciding to chase a bunny or come when I call. Usually they make the right choice. What if they didn't have the collars on? They can make bad choices (like chasing that stupid deer). 

As I said before, I did my research and I talked to some professional trainers. I used the collar with the help of my trainer and with the understanding that if I did not like it, I would return it. So far, it's the best money I've ever spent and it's proved itself worth every penny on several occasions. 

E-collars are a personal preference. Everyone has an opinion and no one is right or wrong. It all depends on your situation.


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

My father and I were trained how to use an E-collar to field train golden retrievers. E-collars are an amazing tool that can help training tremendously. However, they can cause great problems if used improperly.

As someone already said is that a dog must know the basic concept of the commmand you are reinforcing before you use an E-collar. If they don't you will most likely ruin the dog. I have seen people destroy the confidence of perfectly good dogs.

I have used a few different E-collars now, and I like the the ones that can tone, or vibrate, because you can do a non-harmful warning first. This makes the training with an E-collar easier than the old E-collars that were shock only.

Also, if you do use an E-collar, you have to set them to the proper level so that the dog doesn't become immune to them. If they don't yelp, and yes there are dogs that will never yelp which makes this a lot harder, then they are not getting hit hard enough. An E-collar is meant to hurt them enough to make them listen to us. If it doesn't, then at a critical moment they may not listen and bad things can happen.

Once a dog gets used to an E-collar, after a few months its normally just on if used properly. The amount of time needed does vary from dog to dog though. It is a reminder of what is expected. My father only tones his golden once in a great while when out in the field with him. He does work for some of his food retrieving birds after all.  

That being said, I don't have an E-collar. I don't field train my dogs, and I have an invisible fence around my yard. They associate the shock with something else so an E-collar would be counterproductive for me.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I have to seriously disagree that e-collars should be used for basic training, why?
> 
> Basic training with 99% of the dogs out there in the world does not require an aversive like an e-collar or even a prong.
> 
> ...


If you think the E collar is a harsh aversive, you don't know how to use it.



SFury said:


> My father and I were trained how to use an E-collar to field train golden retrievers. E-collars are an amazing tool that can help training tremendously. However, they can cause great problems if used improperly.
> 
> As someone already said is that a dog must know the basic concept of the commmand you are reinforcing before you use an E-collar. If they don't you will most likely ruin the dog. I have seen people destroy the confidence of perfectly good dogs.
> 
> ...


*If the dog vocalizes ( yelps) , the level you are using is way too high.* *It is not meant to hurt them,* but to get their attention, and people that use an E collar improperly, which you are describing that you do in your post, should take lessons from a trainer experienced in E Collar use.



cshellenberger said:


> I think if you read a little further down you'll see that I have and lost a dog to one. Which I also think I've discussed SEVERAL times before. Don't care to dredge up bad memories.


One of the things that are clearly stated in the directions, is that they should not be used on a dog that has any heart problems.



Alpha said:


> Renoman- Don't take offense to this, I hope it doesn't sound offensive, it's not trully  Just some honest questions!
> 
> You say that your dogs are now collar smart and they have to wear the collar for it to have an effect correct?
> 
> ...


Dogs get collar smart, because the only time the trainer uses the collar is during instruction when they are stimmed. They should get collar conditioned first, wearing the collar for a week or two with no collar training given. Most dogs will only have to be stimmed a few times to learn a command with the collar. If you are stimming the dog several times each day, day after day, only when they are wearing the collar, then they will get collar smart. Again, a good E Collar trainer will show you how to avoid that problem. 
Also this DVD explains how to avoid the problem in the first place, or cure it if it happens. 

http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

CaptBob you are exactly right, my dog just wore the collar for a while to get used to it and the amount of stimulation should never make a dog yelp--although if my dog was chasing a deer and heading for a street I think I would make him yelp if I really had to


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> If you think the E collar is a harsh aversive, you don't know how to use it.


Regardless if it's a just a sound, a vibrate, a nick, a pulse, a shock, it's still can be an aversive. Being called an aversive does not mean harsh, yet, some dogs don't react to aversives at any level, well. Thankfully, you don't own one of these dogs. 

E-collars have their place, but it's not for every dog, and not necessary for many dog owners. This isn't a statement against e-collars, but rather a statement of what it is...a tool. A tool that requires expertice in using. It's not and never will be the miracle solution to dog training. There are no miracles, only better understand and commitment to dog ownership.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> CaptBob you are exactly right, my dog just wore the collar for a while to get used to it and the amount of stimulation should never make a dog yelp--although if my dog was chasing a deer and heading for a street I think I would make him yelp if I really had to


That is the one time that they recommend using the highest stim possible, if the dog is doing something that is potentially dangerous and must be stopped.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Hate them unless you are a hunter and need the control from a great distance! I had a dog who weighed more then I did and was having a difficult time with him and did not know why. I train myself so this had me really going nuts about this dog so I hired a trainer and he had over 30 years of experience and he could not tell what was going on either so he recomended the e collar. Due to this being this dogs last chance I got one was trained to use it and the women training me to use would not get near this dog so that is how bad he had gotten. I went home with dog and collar, put it on him and when he started acting up I shocked him with the control behind me so he could not see where it was coming from. This is how I was tought to do it , well that dog turned right around new that is was me and came after me. I was able to get him under control but then went to the vet and explained what was going on. I told my vet how things were getting worse and he looked over that dog with a fine tooth comb and found a very small spot on him. They took it off, it looked like a small wart and a week later I got the call that my dog Kado only three years had cancer and only a few months to live. It was medical that is why he got so aggressive! he had been through training, with other dogs and alone myself everyday I worked with him. So that was my experience with the e collar, I feel good positive training is the best! If people are looking for a quick fix don't get a dog.


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

Captbob said:


> *If the dog vocalizes ( yelps) , the level you are using is way too high.* *It is not meant to hurt them,* but to get their attention, and people that use an E collar improperly, which you are describing that you do in your post, should take lessons from a trainer experienced in E Collar use.


I was trained by an experienced trainer. The yelp was used as a marker in years past to allow the handler who was often a 100+ yards away to know that the dog in training received the warning. 15 years ago E-collars weren't nearly as good as they are now. At that time there were no adjustable shock level transmitters. Everything was hard set. Those are the conditions I was trained to use an E-collar. I worked with goldens and labrador retrievers who are resilient and quick learning dogs. There were some dogs that I was taught to identify as no E-collar animals because they couldn't handle any type of shock.

The new collars are far more dog friendly these days, and I have had little need to use my father's new E-collar. It has a variable shock rate control on the transmitter as well as a tone feature. The tone feature alone has made the training of his golden super easy. You don't need a whistle to communicate your desire with your dog, and the communication delay is basically gone. The tools have improved, and the dogs have benefitted from the improvements.

I don't take the use of an E-collar lightly, and don't use one because my dogs don't need that type of training. To be honest E-collar training would be bad with my dogs. They don't have the right personality to even consider E-collar training with them.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Jen D said:


> Hate them unless you are a hunter and need the control from a great distance! I had a dog who weighed more then I did and was having a difficult time with him and did not know why. I train myself so this had me really going nuts about this dog so I hired a trainer and he had over 30 years of experience and he could not tell what was going on either so he recomended the e collar. Due to this being this dogs last chance I got one was trained to use it and the women training me to use would not get near this dog so that is how bad he had gotten. I went home with dog and collar, put it on him and when he started acting up I shocked him with the control behind me so he could not see where it was coming from. This is how I was tought to do it , well that dog turned right around new that is was me and came after me. I was able to get him under control but then went to the vet and explained what was going on. I told my vet how things were getting worse and he looked over that dog with a fine tooth comb and found a very small spot on him. They took it off, it looked like a small wart and a week later I got the call that my dog Kado only three years had cancer and only a few months to live. It was medical that is why he got so aggressive! he had been through training, with other dogs and alone myself everyday I worked with him. So that was my experience with the e collar, I feel good positive training is the best! If people are looking for a quick fix don't get a dog.


Whoever showed you how to use he e Collar, didn't know what they were doing. That is not a fault of the collar.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> One of the things that are clearly stated in the directions, is that they should not be used on a dog that has any heart problems.


 
We didn't know about the problem, that's why I always tell people about this danger. Many people never read the directions and at times the heart problem is undetected. I myself have a heart murmer that I was born with, it only shows up under stressful situations. The same often happens with dogs, regular vet checks often don't find it, you haveto be LOOKING for the problem.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

An aversive is something a dog is willing to work to avoid.

When you compare other aversives, like negative punishment or verbal aversives to the e-collar, yes it is a harsh aversive. 

You can't deny that it makes the dog uncomfortable, why else does it work? It makes them feel happy? They don't feel it all? Or it's unexpected, and get's their attention because it makes them UNCOMFORTABLE?
*
Why do dogs work to AVOID the stimulation of the e-collar? I mean, if it doesn't hurt them why would they care??? They work to avoid the stim because it is an unpleasant, possibly scary feeling for some dogs.*

If you think I'm wrong, I'd love to hear everyone's explanation on why the e-collar works if you don't think it's uncomfortable for a dog....

I mean, how many dogs do you think would withstand getting stimulated all the time? Why is that? Because it makes them uncomfortable. Whether dogs who are trained solely with e-collars become immune to it, or less bothered is besides the point.

Like a prong collar, sure, it may not HURT some dogs, but it definitely makes them uncomfortable.

Renoman- That was a great explanation, it sounds like you are one of very few that have an idea about the e-collar.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I mean, how many dogs do you think would withstand getting stimulated all the time? Why is that? Because it makes them uncomfortable. Whether dogs who are trained solely with e-collars become immune to it, or less bothered is besides the point.


If you are stiming a dog "all the time", then there is something drastically wrong with your E Collar training methods. I watched someone train a dog to come on command, and he low level stimmed the dog 5 times, and didn't have to stim it anymore after that.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

You totally missed my point.

If the e-collar doesn't cause a dog pain or discomfort, than technically, you could stimulate your dog 24 hours a day 7 days a week and it wouldn't be an issue, right?

It was a rhetorical question, NO dog could stand being stimulated all the time. (And I don't mean the method, I mean if it's such a mild aversive, you should be able to stim your dog persistently without a negative effect)

My point is, some people are in denial, or just don't realize, that the reason the e-collar works is because it's uncomfortable for your dog. I've used it on my dog, I'll admit it. That's why it works, it's a quick correction that startles her and is not a pleasant feeling so I can get the behaviour I want/don't want.

So for those using the e-collar for basic training, this is where I get lost. There's always the exception, but the majority of dogs could be trained basic behaviours, like sit/down/come/stand etc. without the use of an e-collar or typically ANY aversive that causes pain or discomfort. So why chose a method that does cause unpleasant feelings for your dog if you haven't even tried other methods, like shaping or a reward system.

I understand and have spoken with a number of field competitors, and their use of the "invisible leash" makes sense. Their dog is not only off leash, but is required to do specific commands/cues from a distance. How many average pet owners require their dog to go out on a line and on command turn and wait for direction?

Not many. Off leash walking, heck ya! But advanced behaviours like field competitors, I think not personally.

I can also understand using the e-collar for a specific problem, like I did, or a few people on this thread have mentioned. Makes sense IMO, but for every behaviour you introduced to your dog? I just don't get it...


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

So many people want to use E-collars for basic training. That is not what they are meant to be used for. They are meant to be used for long distance command training and potentially as an "invisible leash" for a dog. I hesitate to mention the "invisible leash" because so many people do use E-collars improperly.

Training a dog to take a line over long distances, and getting them to adjust their position in relation to the object being retrieved is not trivial. It takes time and patience.

I have never used an E-collar to train dogs with the basic commands. That's being abusive IMHO when you can just keep them leashed instead. Sit, stay, come/here, and other simple commands don't require any sort of aversive stimuli that an E-collar provides. Repetition makes perfect and the leash soon becomes uneccassary.

I also understand that an E-collar is meant to hurt the dog. That is the point. With proper use of an E-collar you rarely need to use the shock feature. That went for years past, and especially holds true for today. The tone feature on my Father's E-collar makes it so much more effective of a tool. Being able to provide another reliable stimuli instantly is great for advanced training. It's easier on the dog, and it makes it easier for my family to use the E-collar. My family has never wanted to hurt our companions.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

SFury said:


> So many people want to use E-collars for basic training. That is not what they are meant to be used for. They are meant to be used for long distance command training and potentially as an "invisible leash" for a dog. I hesitate to mention the "invisible leash" because so many people do use E-collars improperly.
> 
> Training a dog to take a line over long distances, and getting them to adjust their position in relation to the object being retrieved is not trivial. It takes time and patience.
> 
> ...



The stim doesn't *hurt* the dog ( have you ever tried it on yourself?)


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

It causes a muscle spasm. It doesn't really hurt, but it does tingle. I was told before I could ever use an E-collar I had to try it on myself. So I did.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

SFury said:


> It causes a muscle spasm. It doesn't really hurt, but it does tingle. I was told before I could ever use an E-collar I had to try it on myself. So I did.


But you said in your above statement that I quoted, that it was meant to "hurt the dog".....


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> The stim doesn't *hurt* the dog ( have you ever tried it on yourself?)


When I was younger, my brother use to give me wedgies on a daily basis. It didn't hurt, but they were certainly annoying. The solution to my problem was a swift kick to my brother's nads. I don't want a dog that will consider a swift kick to my nads by using an e-collar. 

I'm afraid that your claim that it doesn't "hurt" is nothing more than anthropomorphism, and we're all guilty of it.


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## kingrex (Apr 28, 2007)

No Thats Cruel


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> When I was younger, my brother use to give me wedgies on a daily basis. It didn't hurt, but they were certainly annoying. The solution to my problem was a swift kick to my brother's nads. I don't want a dog that will consider a swift kick to my nads by using an e-collar.
> 
> I'm afraid that your claim that it doesn't "hurt" is nothing more than anthropomorphism, and we're all guilty of it.


This, again , shows me that you probably have very little if any experience using an E Collar.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Captbob said:


> Whoever showed you how to use he e Collar, didn't know what they were doing. That is not a fault of the collar.


I just joined and thought that opinions were wanted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had a trainer that has been doing the e collar for years and in this area has a great reputation. I beleive in positive training that is my opinion! and I had a very bad experience with it. I also am not an idiot and have been working with dogs for years, rescue and volunteering at pounds so dog can get adopted.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Captbob, I also never said anything about fault of the collar


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

Thanks Renoman for posting this it has been really interesting. 
Perhaps the e-collar is good as a last resort or for a working dog used properly. But there were a lot more working dogs working before such a tool was even possible. Like alpha says it is aversive training. And Bob I would much rather spend 100 goes at getting my dogs to listen to ME rather than a collar. Isn't that the great satisfaction about teaching our dogs?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

CaptBob- It's pretty obvious that no one else on this board, other than yourself has any experience with the e-collar. Once again, you've decided to read past my post when there was an important, logical, reasonable question within. That's probably why you skipped past it anyways..


*If the e-collar doesn't HURT the dog or make them feel UNCOMFORTABLE WHY THEN DOES IT WORK?????* 

This is exactly what I find scary about using the e-collar, (personally and others) or ANY type of physical correction.

If your in denial about HOW and WHY it works, your dog could suffer serious damage from you methods/usage.

At least admit, that your dog does not enjoy the feeling, it's not pleasant, it's not completely comfortable and THAT'S why you get the behaviour your looking for. Being in denial about the effect it has on your dog is why so many trainers/behaviourists see negative effects from the e-collar.

People who think it's a magical, happy way to quickly train their dog to do something. When it's not. It's an aversive, an uncomfortable aversive, that your dog works to avoid. Admit it, so people thinking about getting an e-collar don't see it as a rainbow and ice cream training method because it isn't. The sooner you admit to yourself WHY this aversive works, the better off your dog will be.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

It has been interesting! The opinions expressed here are as diverse as the posters. I agree that the collar should not be used in basic training. It should only be used in advanced training and only to enforce the commands your dog alread knows or as a control for off leash at a distance. I'm sure this isn't the end of the debate.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

If people count on these collars all the time what are they going to do if lets say the dog gets out or the thing isn't working?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> This, again , shows me that you probably have very little if any experience using an E Collar.


And this shows me that you know nothing about aversives, which is scary. This must be the 20th time I've heard this, but it's never followed by anything educational. Sometimes we get an explanation, but it doesn't explain how it teaches a dog to learn. You don't need to explain this to me Bob, I understand. I think you avoid it because you know it's an aversion, but one that's acceptable to you. But just because it works for you and your dog does not mean it's an appropriate type of training for all dog, and I would say it's appropriate for few dogs. 

But I guess your the expert after all, lol, right? Please continue to make assumptions of what I do and do not know, I enjoy the laughs, but I'll continue to assume you don't know what aversives are.

Remember Bob, "it's not rocket science." To quote your buddy Ed.


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

The fastest form of training is in the use of various aversive stimuli. E-collars have the greatest stimuli of all. The spasm does hurt for the time it is being administered, but the pain for a quick shock lasts a second at most. The pain also quickly goes away. I have never done more than a quick shock to any dog. I have never needed more than that.

The new collars that vibrate, and/or tone dogs are using a form of aversive stimuli.

Making a dog understand the word "no" means it has acted badly is a form of aversion training.

Most people candy train their dogs with treats. Candy training is easy and uses no aversion at all. It is hard to undo the lack of response without the treat. You need to do reverse training and that can be a challenge unto itself. Although candy training should be saved for another conversation.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Alpha said:


> CaptBob- It's pretty obvious that no one else on this board, other than yourself has any experience with the e-collar. Once again, you've decided to read past my post when there was an important, logical, reasonable question within. That's probably why you skipped past it anyways..
> 
> 
> *If the e-collar doesn't HURT the dog or make them feel UNCOMFORTABLE WHY THEN DOES IT WORK?????*
> ...


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> CaptBob- It's pretty obvious that no one else on this board, other than yourself has any experience with the e-collar. Once again, you've decided to read past my post when there was an important, logical, reasonable question within. That's probably why you skipped past it anyways..
> 
> 
> *If the e-collar doesn't HURT the dog or make them feel UNCOMFORTABLE WHY THEN DOES IT WORK?????*
> ...


 
My dog thinks a mild tug on her nylon collar and leash with me holding the leash with my fingertips, is unpleasant. Certainly the many owners I see yanking on choke and prong collars on their dogs , is torture compared to an E Collar. If you have the time and patience to train your dog "off leash", with a bucketfull of treats with no corrections at all, that's great. Many dogs do not respond to that type of training, however, and corrections have to be used. Leash pops, a slight tug on the leash, whatever you call it. The E Collar gives the dog a type of attention getting leash pop, that does not harm or hurt the dog in any way, and usually after a couple of times, you don't even have to stim the dog again. Trying to discuss E Collar training with someone that is not up to speed on how to train with the new E Collars is almost impossible, in my opinion. When I see someone make statements that are totally false regarding E Collars, I have to object, since it might convince someone who is considering E Collar training that it is a bad , or hurts the animal, which is not true.



Jen D said:


> If people count on these collars all the time what are they going to do if lets say the dog gets out or the thing isn't working?


The collar is a training tool. Once the dog learns the command, the collar is seldom, if ever activated. If you are letting your dog run loose, lets say in the woods, or at a beach, it is recommended that the collar be placed on the dog , just in case it gets too far away to hear the owner. You can also use the tone or vibrate function to alert the dog, rather than the stim.


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## Sookie's mom (Jan 31, 2007)

My Goodness! The use of an e-collar is certainly controversial! My question should be less interesting..... 
I have 3 dogs. My 9yr old aus-shepard/chow has a problem of barking(!) over and over at the most annoying pitch and at anything. I have neighbors close by that have put up with this for years. She will stop when I go out to see what's going on. I don't make a big deal out of it because I've heard that will cause more excitement for her. I bring her inside and she's fine. When I can reach her I'll spray some water in her face to quiet her. Now all I have to do is show her the spray bottle and most of the time she stops. We have a very large tree-filled yard...2/3 of an acre so she doesn't always see me. Long recall will work sometimes. Would this be an appropriate use for an e-collar? What about my other dogs being close by. They all like to wrestle with each other. How does that affect the collar? Could it be damaged or come off easily?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> An e-collar when set properly is the equivalent of someone poking you on your shoulder--if someone is poking you over and over on your shoulder what do you do?


If he does it long enough, I'd probably turn around and punch him in the nose.

Any time I might be tempted to hurt Esther physically, even in a very small way, I am mindful that she chooses not to hurt me, tough she has the tools to do so.


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## buffytariq (Apr 30, 2007)

RonE said:


> I considered one when my dog was young and out of control but I couldn't visualize a situation where it would actually help.
> 
> Now she is much more agreeable and responds well to voice commands, but I'd be interested in hearing any enthusiastic reviews from users who have had success with them.


I don't agree with hem atall. I think that a dog should be trained with commands rather than pain if it does caue any. It does not get the dog sensible but nervous. I'm sorry but i just dont like them.


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

THey are not supposed to cause pain at all. It's simply to change the dogs focus. If there is pain, the setting is up to high.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

SFury said:


> The fastest form of training is in the use of various aversive stimuli. E-collars have the greatest stimuli of all. The spasm does hurt for the time it is being administered, but the pain for a quick shock lasts a second at most. The pain also quickly goes away. I have never done more than a quick shock to any dog. I have never needed more than that.
> 
> The new collars that vibrate, and/or tone dogs are using a form of aversive stimuli.
> 
> ...


The collar does not hurt the dog or cause pain, unless you have it set way to high, which shows that you don't know how to set one, in which case you shouldn't be using it.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

LeRoymydog said:


> THey are not supposed to cause pain at all. It's simply to change the dogs focus. If there is pain, the setting is up to high.


I have seen people on this thread make the statement about the E collar causing the dog* pain *and* hurting* the dog, which tells me they don't have any idea how to use an E Collar. If they don't, then why are they trying to convince others that they know what they are talking about   It's like stating that if you put *any kind of collar on your dog,* because it is designed to hurt the dog an cause the dog pain and possibly collapse the dog's trachea, you are using a cruel method to train your dog.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

buffytariq said:


> I don't agree with hem atall. I think that a dog should be trained with commands rather than pain if it does caue any. It does not get the dog sensible but nervous. I'm sorry but i just dont like them.


Have you ever used one?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

LeRoymydog said:


> THey are not supposed to cause pain at all. It's simply to change the dogs focus. If there is pain, the setting is up to high.


This is the closest anyone has come to answering my question:

"If the e-collar isn't painful,(if used correctly I agree it should not be painful or hurt) or makes the dog uncomfortable, WHY does it work?"

So my question now is this, I personally don't think it changes a dogs focus, but let's say that's why it works. WHY does it change the dogs focus?

When I use food to get my dogs attention, I KNOW that it get's their attention because they want the food. When I stim Roxy with the e-collar, I know it makes her uncomfortable so she complies.

Apparently, the e-collar and stimulation DO NOT work that way according to this thread and no one has answered me HOW they work.

Captbob- I agree they shouldn't cause pain if used correctly I should've made that clear. I also 100% agree that not all dogs can be trained with positive reinforcement. Once again, I agree that the misuse of other collars can be more damaging than an e-collar that's being used PROPERLY. THe reason in your post about giving quick, on the money corrections is also why I resorted to using the collar. I had to get in there quick and give a correction; verbal just wasn't enough of an aversive, food wasn't ceasing the behaviour and a leash pop just wasn't in call for the behaviour, nor could I pop her quick enough to hit the unwanted behaviour in time.

I don't know if your implying that I personally am not up to speed in e-collar theories and training, but I'll let everyone else know that while I'm not a professional e-collar trainer, I have attended seminars and go to school with a woman who gives private lessons for behavioural issues with the e-collar. She too will argue that the e-collar isn't uncomfortable for a dog which I do not agree with, but when it comes to the theory behind the use of e-collars in competitive obedience and field work I've spoken with many reputable and knowledgable about the topic. Personally, I've used an e-collar for a controversial behavioural issue with Fred Hassen's method that he personally used a dog from my school, a flat coated retriever.

I'm not trying to discourage people from buying an e-collar at all. Just trying to get the whole story out there. It isn't the same as positive reinforcement, at all. It's the use of an uncomfortable aversive to get your dog to comply. So many people buy an e-collar, either don't get a trainer at all, or get an "extremist" trainer. They have no idea, or soak up the information the extremist gives them, that the e-collar is uncomfortable for your dog. With that knowledge, people tend to be 100% sure when they press that button, what the effect on their dog is going to be and know darn well in their own head that their dog deserved it. If people don't know, or won't admit that it's uncomfortable, they're a little more slack with thinking before pressing that button.

Anyone care to answer why the e-collar works? As in a full explanation of HOW the collar gets their attention, and WHY they comply with the aversive.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

http://www.coondawgs.com/articles/ecollars.pdf

I think this article explains how the e-collar works (like the fourth or fifth paragraphy). I tried to cut and paste it but it wouldn't let me.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Probably because it's adobe format, reading now.

Thanks Ginny 

Edited- I'm only on the second page, but I've already found what I'm looking for:

"Now it's time to train. It is time to allow the dog to learn that it can turn the uncomfotable twitching sensation off."

I'm going to keep reading though in case I've misinterpreted it.


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

Captbob said:


> The collar does not hurt the dog or cause pain, unless you have it set way to high, which shows that you don't know how to set one, in which case you shouldn't be using it.


E-collars cause a certain amount of pain. No matter hoe you sugar coat it, they do cause pain. Pain is a variable item. It doesn't have to be excruciating. Discomfort is pain.

Think of it this way, all discomfort is pain, but not all pain is discomfort. If there was no stimuli, then E-collars would never have been useful, and wouldn't be so widespread in use today.

The first thing I was taught is that E-collars cause pain, and should be used sparingly.

You have also missed the fact that I have said multiple times now that the new collars are far better now. Most of them can now tone, or vibrate. This allows for a different stimulus to be used other than pain.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

SFury said:


> E-collars cause a certain amount of pain. No matter hoe you sugar coat it, they do cause pain. Pain is a variable item. It doesn't have to be excruciating. Discomfort is pain.
> 
> Think of it this way, all discomfort is pain, but not all pain is discomfort. If there was no stimuli, then E-collars would never have been useful, and wouldn't be so widespread in use today.
> 
> ...


Whoever taught you about e Collars didn't know what they were talking about, but they sure did a good job convincing you that they did..... The new collars are better now, because the stims are at a much lower level and can be adjusted from the transmitter. Most people can* feel nothing *when I try the setting that I use on my dog, on their arm or leg. By the way, which collar are you using and what model, and how old is it? Some instructors recommend not even using the vibrate function, because it can startle the dog. I never use it on my collar.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I must be stupid. I cannot understand how they work if you feel nothing at all. Do they release an offensive oder? Play Barry Manilow ballads? Offer backseat driving tips?

I've never used one, so I am asking as a curious bystander. But some of the things I'm reading here defy logic.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

and this is inherently the problem with e collars...... 

people don't know how they work and don't know how to use them...... 
they are available at any darned pet supply place and until the person has been trained to how to use them they shouldn't be allowed to buy one. 

I know lots of field and hunt folks use ecollars to give the dog signals when they are way way out in the field ...... I have seen them used appropriately and I agree with Capt.Bob. I have also seen them used badly.... and I watched a woman at a field training class.... she didn't want her dog to run the bank..... lots of dogs won't take an angle across a stream when they are working they will run the bank and then cross in a straight line... so every time her dog went to cross in the wrong place she zapped and I mean zapped the dog.... well... basically she taught her working retriever to be afraid of water...... 

most people don't know what the heck they are doing with an e collar..... 

I have not personally used one.... I have not needed to although maybe at some point I will.... right now it hasn't been a problem.... 

but that is my biggest complaint about e collars. 
s


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

I do know that it is a Tri-Tronics collar. I don't know what model e-collar my father has now. The battery for the one he bought 15 or so years ago quit working 4-5 years ago. The battery would no longer hold a charge.

So he did some research and found one that had the tone feature. Those were the relatively new at the time, but he wanted to use a different form of communication with his dog than just a shock.

That was one of the best choices he made. Nitro, his dog, was already trained at that time, and has since been shocked only once. He learned immediately what the tone meant.

I do not know how effective a vibrate collar would be. I have never used one, and don't want one that vibrates. Still, a vibration is not a shock. So that is an improvement. I haven't done any research as to potential problems with a vibrating collar.

An audible tone is a better solution because the coat type of the dog is irrelevant with them. Most working dogs aren't deaf, and a tone just works well. Working dogs are taught to work both on visual and auditory commands, so I would want an audible method to communicate with a dog if I were to get an e-collar. The tone is just an extension of the verbal commands we already are using.

EDIT- The e-collar shock is meant to hurt the dog so you don't need to use it. One hard hit can make the dog understand quickly what is desired. You only use an e-collar for advanced training, and when you know that the dog understands the command. It is the last resort, and the number of times I have used the shock feature on all dogs is less than 10. E-collars can be used for different purposes. I was taught that they are an extreme training tool, and should be avoided if possible.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

SFury said:


> I do know that it is a Tri-Tronics collar. I don't know what model e-collar my father has now. The battery for the one he bought 15 or so years ago quit working 4-5 years ago. The battery would no longer hold a charge.
> 
> So he did some research and found one that had the tone feature. Those were the relatively new at the time, but he wanted to use a different form of communication with his dog than just a shock.
> 
> ...


The old TriTronics collars only had a few stim settings, and they were all very high. Collars are not designed that way anymore. One of the largest and most respected collar manujfacturers today, Dogtra, uses a vibrate function, and another large company , Innotex and Tri Tronics use a tone. It's like Ford and Chevy, some prefer one over the other for various reasons. Again , you keep repeating the totally false information that the E collar is meant to hurt the dog... I don't know why you do that, but it is totally incorrect if the collar is used properly. You can hurt a dog with a collar and leash if you use them improperly, and yet people don't say that a collar and leash are "designed to hurt the dog".......


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

RonE said:


> I must be stupid. I cannot understand how they work if you feel nothing at all. Do they release an offensive oder? Play Barry Manilow ballads? Offer backseat driving tips?
> 
> I've never used one, so I am asking as a curious bystander. But some of the things I'm reading here defy logic.


May I suggest that you go to a store or find a trainer or owner and ask for a demo of an E Collar. Place the collar on your arm, and set it for a minimum stim. Press the button, and you will probably feel nothing at all. Now gradually increase the stim level with either a knob or digital setting, until you just feel a "tingle" from the collar. That is the way you would set it on the dog. You look at the dog, and gradually increase the setting until you see a slight reaction from the dog, like an eye blink or the type of reaction the dog would give if a fly landed on it's neck. That is where you leave the setting for training. At that point, if you want, you can take the collar back off the dog and put it on your arm and hit the button with the same setting you just set for the dog. Many people will find that they can barely feel anything, and that the setting of the collar is now below the setting that they had dialed up when they were trying to see how the collar felt. In other words, the dog may use a lower stim setting than a person could even feel. All dogs, and all people are different, and that is why there are so many stim levels on the better collars. Here would be a good way to compare a collar and leash to an E collar. Take a prong collat, and put it on your arm, and have someone give you a leash pop correction. You see if that is more disturbing that the little tingle you felt with the E Collar. I'll let you be the judge of that  

Now if your dog is charging into the street, and you want to stop the dog, before it gets hit by a truck, then you would use a very high stim level, which would have the same effect as an electric fence or bark collar. One or two of these stims, and the dog won't be chasing cars anymore. Does this bother the dog, I am certain it does, but having the trucks front tire crushing the dogs head would bother the dog alot more.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Shalva said:


> and this is inherently the problem with e collars......
> 
> people don't know how they work and don't know how to use them......
> they are available at any darned pet supply place and until the person has been trained to how to use them they shouldn't be allowed to buy one.
> ...


I agree with you, and I don't think people should use and E Collar unless they hire a trainer that has a great deal of E Collar experience. But then, I don't think some people should be training their dogs at all anyway. People hitting dogs, shouting at the dog, yanking the dog's leash, slapping it with the end of the leash, all can ruin a dog pretty quickly. People do these things to dogs every day, and think they are doing a great job of training their dogs. Then they can't figure out why the dog becomes aggressive, or can't be trained at all, and winds up being brought to a pound.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Captbob said:


> Again , you keep repeating the totally false information that the E collar is meant to hurt the dog... I don't know why you do that, but it is totally incorrect if the collar is used properly. You can hurt a dog with a collar and leash if you use them improperly, and yet people don't say that a collar and leash are "designed to hurt the dog".......


I saw a beautiful flat coat with permanent nerve damage caused by being jerked on a choke collar..... a beautiful dog.... I have seen other dogs that are made aggressive my prong collars.... any tool if abused can harm, hurt, and cause permanent damage..... 

look at all the prong collars out there... with people jerking away on them..... shoot there are ways to abuse anything..... 

if an ecollar is used properly by a trained person it gives the dog a signal a cue as to what to do next..... 

in the untrained hand its a menace..... 

and that is the problem ...... with any tool.....


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I saw a beautiful flat coat with permanent nerve damage caused by being jerked on a choke collar..... a beautiful dog.... I have seen other dogs that are made aggressive my prong collars.... any tool if abused can harm, hurt, and cause permanent damage.....
> 
> look at all the prong collars out there... with people jerking away on them..... shoot there are ways to abuse anything.....
> 
> ...


Most people do not even know how to put a prong collar on. They have it so loose that it can rotate and the prongs are now pinching the dog's throat. I have also seen people try and slip a prong collar over a dogs head, to put it on. Now that is world class stupid in my opinion. I even saw this done at a Pet Smart one day, by a clerk. 

Years ago the Germans did some research on Police and Guard dogs trained exclusively with choke collars. Doing a necropsy on the dogs, they found *muscle damage on every dog right where the chain goes though the loop on the choke collar. * http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/fitprong.pdf


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I hate to seem arguementative, trully because I agree with much, if not all that has been said on this thread, I just can't sit here and see the e-collar portrayed as this wonderful, everything's happy method.

Surely with the proper methods, based on correction and reward it can be a happy training regiment for your dog,(such as explained in the link Ginny posted) but the basis of the method is it's uncomfortable for your dog so they work to avoid the aversive.

I don't understand why some can't admit this. I'm not even using the word pain, but admit that it is uncomfortable for your dog.

If you want to educate people about the subject don't leave the important part out. WHY this method works. WHY do dogs comply with this aversive your setting forth? Because it is not a pleasant feeling. Period.

That's all I want some to admit. I'm not trying to say that it's abusive or even painful, but it IS uncomfortable. Heck, I've used it on MY own dog, I'm not trying to make it sound awful or evil, but I can't stand to see people down play, and on top of it, not answer why it works if I'm wrong.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Okay, here goes. Let me just stoke the fire here. Have any of you every had physical therapy using a tens unit? Know what it is? It's an electrical muscle stimulator. When used properly, it is very effective in helping to stimulate the weak or damaged muscle and it doesn't hurt, it just feels funny. It can be painful if set at a higher intensity than you're accustomed to or ready for. Everyone has their own pain threshold, as do dogs. Scuffling across a carpet and getting shocked with the light switch can hurt if you're not expecting it. 

When used properly, an e-collar *does not *and *is not meant to hurt *a dog. It is an attention getter and if you are using the collar properly, the stimulation your dog receives should be no more than the stimulation you receive from a tens unit set at a level comfortable for you. The key here is to find a level that gets your dogs attention without hurting. If your dog yelps, that's too high. If your dog ignores the stimulation completely, it's too low. 

If my dog is a quarter mile away from me and I see he is about to head into trouble, I will give him a signal to return to me. One low, quick, "Hey, come back to me". What's worse, that one quick HEY, or being hit by a tractor trailer? Maybe I'm using the wrong analogies here, but you get the point, I hope.

Yes, today's collars are much more advanced with the tone and vibration. They're fantastic. Teaching the dog to respond to the tone as a warning is a wonderful option. Again, depending on the dog, as each dog has their own personality and pain threshold. Just as a parenthetical aside, my female shepherd Tessa, was the hardest dog I have ever trained. She had a pain threshold whose limit I never really wanted to test and she thumbed her nose at the tone - you could visibly see her making an obscene gesture. Some dogs never need to be on a collar. That's fantastic and lucky you. Other dogs, need that extra something a collar provides if necessary. 

Again, basic training is not where you want to use the collar. If you start there, you have no place else to go if you need it. It is a training device that should be used for advanced training, reinforcement of commands, and to eliminate bad behaviors and it is not meant to hurt. Those that think otherwise are thoroughly misinformed.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

That was a wonderful post Renoman.

To be honest, I've never had the muscle therapy treatment you were speaking about, but I think I get the idea.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Thank you. I only want people to understand what an e-collar is about before condemning it.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I don't want to discourage people either, I just feel that when it comes to aversives in dog training generally, you should use them with reserve and only where needed. And if you so choose to use a physical aversive, know darn well what your getting into before you yank that chain, or push that button.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I also have had a tens unit... I actually own my own after a serious injury and it is the only thing that kept me out of pain for years.... 

I think it depends on how you are using the ecollar.... if you are using it as corrective.... then yes it is designed to startle to be an aversive.... however if you are using as a guide then it is designed to give a cue..... that is how most i know of use it in the field. 

I have considered using one with a barker that I have at my house at present... do I want it to zap the heck out of him no.... but do I want to give him that instantaneous correction before we get kicked out of the neighborhood for him barking... then yeah.... 

i think it all depends on why you are using it. 
s


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Shalva, are you in pain when you use the tens unit? I sure hope not, I use it on patients all the time for injuries, etc. It gets your attention but it doesn't cause pain (or shouldn't)


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

no my tens unit helps a great deal......i tend to feel like a frankenstein monster with all of my wires but it helps the pain alot.... I had a plow decide to park atop my car with me in it a while back so I have CNS damage..... doesn't stop me from doing anything I want but the tens unit is a wonderful thing... I was nervous about it at first but it actually is great..... 

s


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

yeah, I use it on CVA patients that have nerve damage. I have had it used on my back for sciatica and I have used it on my neck which is all messed up for some reason. When used properly it is a pretty cool tool.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

See, used correctly, everything is a wonderful tool. Used improperly, *anything* can be abusive. 

You want to stop inappropriate barking before the neighbors revolt, startling the dog when he barks could be just the cure. 

I'm not saying that the collar is the 'magic cure all' for every situation. You need to do an individual assessment. If you've tried everything else and it didn't work, maybe the collar is what you need. If the circumstances preclude you from using any other correction, maybe the collar is what you need. If you need to cue a dog from a distance, maybe the collar is what you need. It is an individual decision. But, before you put that collar around your dog's neck, you need to be totally informed and trained on using the collar.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Renoman said:


> Okay, here goes. Let me just stoke the fire here. Have any of you every had physical therapy using a tens unit? Know what it is? It's an electrical muscle stimulator. When used properly, it is very effective in helping to stimulate the weak or damaged muscle and it doesn't hurt, it just feels funny. It can be painful if set at a higher intensity than you're accustomed to or ready for. Everyone has their own pain threshold, as do dogs. Scuffling across a carpet and getting shocked with the light switch can hurt if you're not expecting it.
> 
> When used properly, an e-collar *does not *and *is not meant to hurt *a dog. It is an attention getter and if you are using the collar properly, the stimulation your dog receives should be no more than the stimulation you receive from a tens unit set at a level comfortable for you. The key here is to find a level that gets your dogs attention without hurting. If your dog yelps, that's too high. If your dog ignores the stimulation completely, it's too low.
> 
> ...


That is what I have been trying to explain on this thread, for I don't know how many posts ( you can count them, I bet there is almost a dozen) . I gave very detailed descriptions of how the collars are used, who makes them, how they have improved in recent years, how they are calibrated, how you can hardly feel the stim that many dogs can, how you should be trained to use them, etc..., etc...... I guarantee, it won't be long before someone posts how painfull an E Collar is, and how much it hurts the dog *"because that is what it is designed to do * and if you use one on your pet , you are a cruel and sadistic person that likes to torture animals.......   ...


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

I know Bob.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

hey not me 
I agreed with ya.... but then again I am a field person.... I work my dogs so I have seen them used properly.....


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

I know Shalva.  If one person comes away from this discussion with a different opinion about the collar or at least has the curiosity to seek out someone to give them a little training and first hand knowledge on the correct and most effective use of e-collars and it will help them with their training, then we've spent our time well.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Renoman said:


> I know Shalva.  If one person comes away from this discussion with a different opinion about the collar or at least has the curiosity to seek out someone to give them a little training and first hand knowledge on the correct and most effective use of e-collars and it will help them with their training, then we've spent our time well.


I spent this morning with an Instructor who uses E Collars in her school on an ongoing basis. I mentioned to her, some of the negative comments that are posted on this thread about E Collars, and she said that "it is such a shame that people still have this prehistoric view of what E Collar training is all about today". She had about 4 of her dogs running around, all with E collars on, from a 6 pound chihuahua to a GSD and Golden Retriever. All were happy dog, trained perfectly, and you could see that these dogs just loved the trainer. She told me the same story that the other two trainers that base their training on E Collars had previously told me , that it is the fastest and most lasting way to train a dog today. Train a dog to come, with all kinds of distractions omcluding other dogs running around your dog , in a one hour session. Try to do that with any other method. 

She described E Collar training as being able to tap on your dog's shoulder with your finger to get it's attention. It means no more to the dog than that, if you have been shown how to properly use the collar. Would I recommend someone just buying a collar and going for it, not on your life. Get a quality collar, a good instructor with E collar experience, and you will be amazed at how quickly you can get results with you dog. 

I guess people had the same problem when autos came out, and they didn't want to give up the horse an buggy.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Sometimes people don't like something simply because they know nothing about it and they refuse to learn.

Some people who posted here dislike the collars because of bad experiences. Understandable. Others dislike the collar because they don't understand it (much like the first automobile) and learning about it would mean at least acknowledging that some of the reasons for using a collar are very valid. Perish the thought 

I agree Bob. It's really too bad.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

You know, I could care less what people do with their own dogs. Regardless of whether I agree or not, deep down, nothing I say will make anyone change their minds.

What really is starting to bother me Captbob, is you obviously have NO CLUE about dog training or general, or many of the statements you've made you would retract.

You don't know my dogs. You don't know a number of people on this boards dogs, who I KNOW have trained using methods that are much different than your chosen methods.

So what on God's green earth, gives you the right to make statements like this:



> Try to do that with any other method.


I mean, if you trully want to be educated about dog training, you should know by now that there are a number of methods out there that WORK. Not just ONE, "the e-collar". There are a handful, balanced training, purely positive, correction training.... All within each category of series of mild to severe...

I urge you to teach a dog go-outs with an e-collar. If you even know what that is. I spent less than 6 months laying down the groundwork for directed jumping and have quickly surpassed those at our school who have been working in total years longer than I with Roxy, yes with the e-collar.

Go out and DO SOMETHING with your dog, go out and SEE other people working with their dogs, not just e-collar people. 

You try to come off as knowledgeable and educated but when you make comments like that you come off as ignorant and oblivious to the fact that there are MANY training methods out there in this world that work individually BETTER for certain dogs.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> You know, I could care less what people do with their own dogs. Regardless of whether I agree or not, deep down, nothing I say will make anyone change their minds.
> 
> What really is starting to bother me Captbob, is you obviously have NO CLUE about dog training or general, or many of the statements you've made you would retract.
> 
> ...


My statement about training a dog to do a reliable come, off leash, in under and hour with distractions, you say that you can do without an E Collar? Then you must be one great trainer and the exception rather than the rule. Do you do this professionally?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Let me preface this by saying I don't use an e-collar on my dog. I don't need to use an e-collar on my dog, I don't want to use an e-collar on my dog, and I don't recommend to people to use an e-collar on a dog. Now befor you get your panties in a bunch, let me explain why beyond the fact that I know what I'm good at.

90% (I think this is a fair estimate) of dog trainers are dog handlers who are novices. This would include men, women, AND children. If your training require too much learning, you cut out most dog trainers. Besides, who would want an e-collar controller in the hands of a child.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgllp6DJGNE

So what does this mean? It means dog training in general needs to be simple, it needs to be efficient, it needs to be practical. By saying this I AM NOT saying e-collars don't have a place in dog training...they do, but IMO it's not practical to the first time dog rescuer who doesn't even know if their dog likes them. I think I've only read from Renoman who specifically stated it requires expertice training. I'm sure e-collars are a wonderful tool to those that use them effectively, but please don't excuse my disinterest in them as a lack of understanding, or claim that I must be an expert, or I simple just don't know how to use them. I'm merely applying logic to what I know about dog trainers/handlers in general.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Let me preface this by saying I don't use an e-collar on my dog. I don't need to use an e-collar on my dog, I don't want to use an e-collar on my dog, and I don't recommend to people to use an e-collar on a dog. Now befor you get your panties in a bunch, let me explain why beyond the fact that I know what I'm good at.
> 
> 90% (I think this is a fair estimate) of dog trainers are dog handlers who are novices. This would include men, women, AND children. If your training require too much learning, you cut out most dog trainers. Besides, who would want an e-collar controller in the hands of a child.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lgllp6DJGNE
> ...


I totally agree, and you will notice in my post above, that I stated very clearly that if you want to go the E-Collar route, that you need to first get a trainer that has alot of experience in that method of training. Just as an example, I visited a well known trainer yesterday, and she has 5 dogs that she uses in demos and events featuring trained dogs. She used E collars to train every one of those dogs, and the dogs are incredible. Every one of them were rescues that she adopted and then trained. Would I recommend going to a Petsmart and handing the trainer an E Collar, and say "teach me", no way. 

But to say:

1. "This is a cruel way to train a dog *if done properly"*. that is simply not true
2. that "it can't be used for basic training such as come, heel, sit, stay", that isn't true either
3. that you can walk into a Petsmart or Petco, buy one, and take it home and start training your dog with it, also isn't true. 

I would recommend finding a good trainer in your area, that uses the E Collar method, and there are quite a few. Discuss with them , what you want to accomplish, and ask their opinion about what would be the best way to go about. I do think, that more and more trainers are becoming E Collar experienced, and when they start using this method, that they find that they get better and quicker results, than the leash collar method. After a couple of weeks, the dog is totally trained, and the E Collar goes in the closet, except if are using it for distance recall at the beach or out in the field, where the dog may not be able to hear you.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Actually Captbob, my dogs have been offleash since I've had them, Roxy at 6 weeks and Hades at 5 and they have NEVER run away, up to other dogs or people. EVER.

IMO, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with dog training, but rather in my household, pack stability and pack leadership. (I won't use the term Alpha as in the dominance theory, but I look at it as leadership skills on my part, resource control on my part etc)

So right there that shows me we're on a totally different level. Dog training to me, is a healthy mix of working together as a team combined with our bond and rule system we already share in the household.

Educating yourself about the e-collar is great, but wouldn't you rather be educated and knowledgable about A NUMBER of different training methods, other than speaking about one and being totally mislead about others?

I much prefer my trainer to those who are purely positive, or those who train ONLY with e-collars. Just as a woman I've been speaking to who owns two of the top 20 obedience Doberman's of last year. In my world of dog training, a knowledgeable reputable trainer is someone who is NOT closeminded to training methods different to their own, and they most DEFINITELY do not make false statements about other methods to try and push their own onto others.

It's funny this:



> After a couple of weeks, the dog is totally trained, and the E Collar goes in the closet, except if are using it for distance recall at the beach or out in the field, where the dog may not be able to hear you.


My dogs won't go that far away from me. EVER. They stay within sight and hearing range, not because I verbally nag them, because they WANT TO. THEY WANT TO BE WITH ME. I can't imagine what would ever happen if Hades got lost in the forest, he would die from a heart attack, because I'm his leader, his companion, HIS GIVER. My dogs are on top of me, even from 30-40 feet away if I make a change in direction without so much as a verbal cue. They ALWAYS keep an eye on me, focus that was taught without the use of an e-collar.

All of this was done without the use of the e-collar. But it's not possible right? 

ETA- I also think the age of my dogs is relevant. A common misconception about "positive" methods in general, is they take a long time, another misconception about e-collars generally is they are super fast. Both are not true in certain circumstances. Hades is 1.5 years old and Roxy is 2.5. Both quite young, but have achieved offleash priviledges in high distraction areas as well as a number of other excercises.

The two women who have a business with e-collar training have CD's and CDX's on their dogs and have spent over a year trying to get the UD excercises down. While they are difficult excercises, go outs being the hardest, Roxy surpassed them in 6 months using "positive" or "shaping" methods.

To go on the other side here, before my lesson yesterday a woman was doing a show prep private. Her dog is 8 and she's spent years trying to get a CD. Obviously the positive wasn't being executed properly or it just wasn't the right method for the dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Would I recommend going to a Petsmart and handing the trainer an E Collar, and say "teach me", no way.


To be honest Bob I feel the same way about clickers. IMO, anytime you need to get into an operant conditioning explanation game, of how a training method works, it's not the best method for a novice...and this would include clicker training.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> To be honest Bob I feel the same way about clickers. IMO, anytime you need to get into an operant conditioning explanation game, of how a training method works, it's not the best method for a novice...and this would include clicker training.


I have seen dozens of people learn clicker training ( marker) , and almost zero problems with the dogs and the new trainers. Hey if it works, it works...... You have to be pretty dense to not be able to understand clicker training and utilize it with minimal if any problems.


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## DBZ (Apr 21, 2007)

Hi! Kinda new here but enjoying it! 

I'm from the "Old School" learning "New School" and liking the new (to me) methods of "Positive Training". I say this so all will understand I don't claim to be an expert of any sort.

It seems to me that if the desired results are accomplished using all positive experiences without aversives the goal is met and no risk to the dog/owner relationship is at stake.

I imagine the majority of dogs would respond well to positive training and wouldn't need shocks, jerks, noises or the like to be a well trained, socialized companion.

There may be a few dogs with severe behavior problems in need of special training measures as a last resort to escape euthanasia. The average dog owner would be wise to seek the help of a trusted profesional in such case.

I do understand the need to use an E-collar in extreme situations by experienced people and those needing long distance contact ie... hunting and other field work requiring the dog to go beyond ear-shot.

P.S. I'm already a big CP fan 

DBZ


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I agree DBZ, but on the other side, as usual, LOL  , like with any method damage can be done if not executed properly. Even clicker training like I think Curb was saying.

Some people take it to the extreme and don't research or enlist the help of a reputable trainer and end up with dogs who are now more of a danger, because they know their owner isn't going to correct.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I have seen dozens of people learn clicker training ( marker) , and almost zero problems with the dogs and the new trainers. Hey if it works, it works...... You have to be pretty dense to not be able to understand clicker training and utilize it with minimal if any problems.


O no, don't get me wrong, clicker training is easy, and you would think only the dense would misunderstand it, but I've seen many intelligent children who weren't sure what to do. When it comes to dog training in general, and for the majority of dog handlers, the simpler it is to have success, is optimal. People want to see results right now! That's why I believe lure-reward training is ideal for the novice. 

To bring it back to e-collars, when that same novice has learned success in dog training and they want to take their training to a more advanced level...say to train a search and rescue dog, then I can see how an e-collar can be practical for that handler. You may say it benefits you in improving current behaviors, and that's great, and I wouldn't discourage you from pursuing that...I assume your dog loves you, and you love your dog, and there's nothing wrong with wanting more. If you had a problem with the training, I trust you would end it immediately. But most dog owners aren't that interested in dog training, they just want a reliable sit, and that can be done without an e-collar.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

Is that the same a shock collars, if so they are banned in Australia.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Shock collars were the predecessor to today's e-collar. They are cousins, but not the same...though the e-collar can be used as a shock collar, but not by experienced dog trainers. But I'd bet Australia also bans the e-collar.


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## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

DBZ, many dogs do respond well to positive only training. However, there are breeds like golden retrievers and labrador retrievers where some dogs are insanely stubborn. They aren't stupid, and definately not bad dogs. They just push their limits hard as pups, and positive training will be ineffective.

Each dog is different, and any handler/owner has to find the best way to train their dogs so that they follow commands.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

We must not forget that dogs were bred for different purposes: herding, hunting, etc. and different dogs have way different pain levels which is one of the reasons an experienced trainer is needed if one decides to use the ecollar training method


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

SFury said:


> DBZ, many dogs do respond well to positive only training. However, there are breeds like golden retrievers and labrador retrievers where some dogs are insanely stubborn. They aren't stupid, and definately not bad dogs. They just push their limits hard as pups, and positive training will be ineffective.
> 
> Each dog is different, and any handler/owner has to find the best way to train their dogs so that they follow commands.


There are many dogs that do not respond to positive only training. That is what hasn't been mentioned much in this thread, but it is a fact that most professional trainers are aware of.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> We must not forget that dogs were bred for different purposes: herding, hunting, etc. and different dogs have way different pain levels which is one of the reasons an experienced trainer is needed if one decides to use the ecollar training method


To introduce someone to properly setting the Ecollar nick level, and show you how to determine if it is set correctly for your dog, takes less than an hour with a good instructor. A bit of common sense, and paying attention , is all that is required to learn this.

Not to repeat myself, but I have to, the E collar doesn't cause pain to the dog. Eveyone that gets a demo of the e Collar, by trying on themselves, is surprised to that what they feel is a tingle. They don't fall on the ground writhing in pain, smoke doesn't come off their arm where the collar is resting, they don't pass out, they don't scream for help, it doesn't hurt them. I have had 8 year old kids try it and they laugh.... What you are setting is the level that gets your dog's attention. It would be the same as tapping someone on the shoulder at a party. They may or may not notice, because they are engaged in a conversation with someone else ( distraction) , so you tap again , still they don't notice, then you tap slightly more forcefull. That is the way the collar works. You don't tap them once, and if they don't notice, then proceed to hit them over the head with a baseball bat ( cause pain). This is not a hard concept to get, if you just think about it for a minute.


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## DBZ (Apr 21, 2007)

I understand what you're saying SFury, as I have an ACD (Australian Cattle Dog) also known by most as a stubborn breed. ACD's are tough and extremely prey driven and focused. It takes a lot of patience to get them to focus on what you want. 

My dog is 10 1/2 y/o and went through his first obedience class at 8 mos. using choke chain corrections and a "Good Citizen" class at 2 y/o.

The dog was so indifferent to choke chain corrections (esp. around other dogs) that I tried a pinch collar (prong). It worked much better than a choke chain for me with him. Now my dog is collar wise and understands when the prong is on it's time to get serious, thus no corrections are necessary.

When I take my dog (ZIP) out in public I still apply his prong collar but it's just there so he knows to behave. No corrections are needed. But with a flat buckle collar only, he would pull or possibly lunge if another dog came too close.

I've started "clicker" lure reward training recently and my old dog has responded in a great way! I've learned a better way to train and get what we (me & Zip) both want! I wish I'd trained this way from the start. I would've socialized Zip better as a puppy (I was afraid to expose him to disease). I didn't know about "puppy class" or "Doggy Daycare". I'll take full advantage of these next time I raise a puppy. I'll also use positive training methods from the get-go. I believe I'll have a happier dog with fewer behavior issues but only time will tell.

I don't tell anyone how to train their dog but I like sharing ideas. The more info people have, the better they can decide what is right for them and their pet. That's one of the things I enjoy about this site. Many ideas are shared here and often contradict. It can be confusing but with a little investigation I believe most will come to the conclusion they need to improve their situation.

Thank you all and to all the best!

DBZ


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Just because a dog isn't responding to "purely positive" methods doesnt' mean the only other alternative is to slap an e-collar on them.

Another way people are being mislead. There aren't two different kinds of training: positive or e-collar, there are MANY.

DBZ- I'm in the same boat as you! When we first started training, we did a number of leash pops in training, it was only up until around 6-9 months ago that I really started using shaping/positive methods much more, and I am more that pleased with the results. Hence why now, my FIRST method is shaping/positive, I've seen the best results with it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Not to repeat myself, but I have to, the E collar doesn't cause pain to the dog. Eveyone that gets a demo of the e Collar, by trying on themselves, is surprised to that what they feel is a tingle. They don't fall on the ground writhing in pain, smoke doesn't come off their arm where the collar is resting, they don't pass out, they don't scream for help, it doesn't hurt them.
> 
> This is not a hard concept to get, if you just think about it for a minute.


I think it's a good idea to understand the range of an e-collar before any dog handler decides to use one. However, it must be understood that the aversion, regarless of how it feels on our arm, can only be determined by how the dog perceives it. There is no data suggesting that e-collars don't cause pain, it's never been tested and probably never will. Peta would jump all over that in a heart beat, if it ever were tested. 

But this gets back to my point on if your dog likes you in the end. The best test of any training method is to end the training session and see where your dog ends up. If it runs away, it's probably not a good training method, or at the very least not a good training session. If he returns to you looking for more, I'd say you're on the right track. 

If anything, we need to know more about the e-collar. Since in-the-lab testing will never happen with the e-collar, trainers need to compile data during their training sessions. If the slope between training and response doesn't proceed downward across an interval of time, this training method is not effective. It's as simple as that, and we don't have this kind of info. I wish e-collar trainers would collect this kind of data. Otherwise people will always view it as either the best training method ever, or purely evil. When in actuallity is probably something more in between. But who knows?


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## Mabel55 (Jul 16, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I think it's a good idea to understand the range of an e-collar before any dog handler decides to use one. However, it must be understood that the aversion, regarless of how it feels on our arm, can only be determined by how the dog perceives it. There is no data suggesting that e-collars don't cause pain, it's never been tested and probably never will. Peta would jump all over that in a heart beat, if it ever were tested.


Electricity is a funny thing. It would be nice if we could just look at a number like voltage and determine the exact nature of the effect the e-collar would have on a dog. In reality there are several variables that factor into how an animal will experience the stimulation: intensity, frequency of application, duration, and location of the collar. 

In response to above comment that there is no data on the pain caused by e-collars, I would like to suggest a solution: feel the collar for yourself. 

Our dog, Mabel, has a remote trainer and we have been thrilled with the results. Not only is she obedient, but she is just as happy and healthy as ever. She does not live in fear of her collar, just the opposite; she gets excited when we get out the collar because she knows she is going to the park. 

With that said, when we first bought the collar both my boyfriend and I felt the stimulation for ourselves. We would have never done something to our Mabel that we wouldn't do to ourselves. E-collars, like all training, needs to be thoroughly researched and understood before beginning. High end e-collars come with great training literature and usually a video but if you would like to do some research on your own check out wikipedia's entry _shock collar_ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_Collar or http://trainmypet.net


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Speaking of feeling it for yourself- take a look at this video. Granted this is a anti bark E collar- but you can see obvious comfort on level one ( same device ). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ffIyxiLxc&eurl= 
and to toss in a anti bark E collar for a second into this- keep this in mind- if the dog is startled and yelps out of fright- it takes the collar up a knotch, and has even had other dogs in the house set off the collar of the ones that wasnt even barking.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Mabel55 said:


> In response to above comment that there is no data on the pain caused by e-collars, I would like to suggest a solution: feel the collar for yourself.


I understand the logic, but again, this doesn't provide information that I can say YES! this is what my dog needs. YES! this is appropriate for my dog. My dog would rather I kick her and show no response to pain, but raise my voice and she's emotinally crushed. Again, the aversion is best judged by the dog, not the owner. To misjudge the aversion is to accept abuse, and I can't do that, nor would I recommend it to others. If your dog is happy, that's great, I'm glad it's a useful tool for you. I personally am not a fan of gizmos, so I prefer other methods that keep me relatively hands free during training. I can barely walk and chew gum at the same time, I'd have no luck with a remote in my hand too. Plus, many dog handlers are children, and how many 5 year olds do you know that could be timely and responsible with a remote? IMO, if your training a companion dog, e-collars are not where you start. They have some utility in field work, but even there I have some reservations on need. 

There's only one way to recommend e-collars and that's with the assistance of a certified trainer. There are no "yes, but" points that can be made to veer from this point IMO, no matter how well a video tape is made.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I would never use one for my own dogs ever.. Never had reason too and always another way to train. Sch/police work training I have in the past. To me- I am sorry- no way .. Not with my dogs. I want a working member of my pack built on trust, love and respect.. NOT FEAR- concern, etc.. noooooo thank you! 
IMO people that use E collars didnt start training with a process in mind and just want a quick fix.. No thank you..And even experienced so called trainers its like a quick fix and made out of frustration. NEVER should training take place in frustration.. EVER..


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## Puppy_love_122 (Jul 20, 2007)

I think that they are curel, unless being used by a professional trainer or by some one who know how to use it properly and make the dog understand it.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

> IMO people that use E collars didnt start training with a process in mind and just want a quick fix..


I had gone through a very long process before I resorted to the e-collar. A YEAR LONG process that had no results whatsoever, in fact we saw the behaviour worsen.

It's not to say that the e-collar "worked", IMO it worked better than what we were doing, but I've since found a method that works even better than the e-collar, but it's also not to say that I was just looking for a quick fix, or that I had no logic or reasoning behind my decision.

I think it's rash to say that *everyone* that uses an e-collar is looking for a quick fix, or hasn't put any thought behind it, because that's just not true.

I agree there are many that see it as a quick fix, a magical tool to get your dog to behave, but not *everyone* including myself and I know a few others on this board.

I also agree with Curb when it comes to how the DOG feels this stimulation. We will never know what it feels like to a dog, our bodies just don't work exactly the same. Also it was mentioned, the variables including, length of stim, frequency, but what I find most important is WHERE THE COLLAR IS.

You may think you've found the proper setting for your dog, but the next time you put that collar on, if it's not in the same place, or you put it on tighter, the dog could feel that "light stim" get stronger by 1000. I've felt this on myself. In certain places, if pushed down even minutely, the shock is intensified greatly.

Therefore, IMO, it's not a consistent enough correction. For things that don't require a lot of stims, like perhaps proofing the recall. You should've already laid down the foundation and you may not even have to stim. But using the collar as a primary method alongside with the inconsistent stim is what IMO doesn't make much sense anymore after thinking about it.

Ex) You've asked your dog to finish. They sit crooked, you zap. This time it's only a light stim because the collar was in a certain position, the next time it's slipped a bit, and the dog REALLY feels that stim.

As most know on this board, one of the most important things in dog training is being consistent. And after much thought, I don't believe that the e-collar is a consistent aversion.


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## john tran (Dec 22, 2006)

i've taken the time over the past few days to read every single post in this thread... 

i've had my dog for 8 months now. most people tell me how amazing of a job i've done with him. example: i can have him sit offleash while dogs in the neighborhood walk by him (as long as they don't get within 1feet he won't move. personally (maybe i just have high standards) i don't feel that is enough. working on getting him to sit while being more than 20 feet away is extremely difficult, he still has problems leaving a pack, especially when it gets a bit too crazy (dogs all barking etc)....

i have the 2nd best trained dog in the neighborhood, totaling of 25+ dogs. the most well trained dog is this dog named katahdin. she's 7-8ish, but was very very poorly socialized before the owner adopted her. since then she has lashed out at other dogs. he's taken her to professional training and with the help of the electronic collar she's one of the most amazingly well trained dogs i have ever seen in my life (second to only the german shepard vid i've seen on youtube). 

i'm seriously considering an e-collar (i take my dog backpacking ALL the time and he's often 100 yards away). i walk him offleash 95% of the time, the 5% is for our 5 mile runs in the morning and when we have to cross streets. other than that he has free reign of anything and everything. there are many other reasons that warrant an e-collar. ie: the constant offleash living in the city of boston, lots of cars, lots of little critters, he once took off after a rabbit at a park, nearly got 50 yards away before my voice stopped him (he's a lab/collie/pitbull/shepard 45lb dog, fast as hell, i've clocked him at 25mph and he definately could have gone faster). 

but to my point. many of you are much much more experienced than i am, i've been able to get a lot out of you guys.

but i would like to offer some constructive criticism, please DO NOT take any of this offensively. first off, i want to state that i love my dog, but by no means am i always nice to my dog. there are times when a dog needs to be punished. i personally feel that negative reinforcement is needed at times, as well as a little physical punishment. ie: i've tried everything with my dog when it comes with walking off leash. and i mean everything.

what worked best was a slap on his rear with the leash (all nylon) everytime his back legs passed me. it took THREE WHOLE SLAPS (within 3 days) and he has not passed me in 4 months. i personally feel that is more effective and "humane" for the dog than constantly nagging. 

i recall when i was a kid, i would much rather get slapped or spanked by my dad than constantly nagged by my mother, in fact, i'de rather get beaten by my dad lol.

back to my point, i think that you guys need to lighten up a tiny bit when it comes to others putting their hands on their dogs. i don't believe in BEATING a dog, but i believe in phyiscal correction when appropriate. if your 6 year old son punched a neighbors kid are you going to talk to him everytime? or are you eventually going to give him that spanking. kid dependent of course, but the spanking he'll remember much more than the chat. especially if it's done sooner than later. 

don't get me wrong, i'm not telling people to HIT their dogs, i'm just saying that it CAN be warranted and in the appropriate situations i don't think it's that big of a deal. 

my 5 dollars :-D

john


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I've thwapped my dogs with the leash here or there, but not as a correction to be honest. Most of the time, it's a whack to get their attention and initiate rough play. Not whipping really, I guess it's just something you have to see. lol

I'm very physical with my dogs, I'll be honest. We play awful rough. I saw a post here about putting your knee up to stop a dog from jumping and saw some replies from people that would call the cops on me if they saw me playing with my dogs!  LOL

It's all in fun, and it's clear my dogs enjoy it. They don't yelp, or act hurt, they just come at me harder!  

I understand your analogy of children fighting, but it's just not interchangable with dogs. A six year old child has more human logic than a dog will have in a lifetime, so it just doesn't cut it for me.

I won't lie, I've physically corrected my dogs, and once again I won't lie, it didn't do anything but harm. No positive outcomes for me, or my dogs, short-term, possibly, they ceased a behaviour, but not long-term.

My dogs get a smack on the rump here or there, but it's never really in anger, and it's never really a correction. More or less getting their attention. Like, Roxy's walking by and I give her a smack so she turns and I can pat her. Kind of like punching a friend softly in the arm jokingly. I believe studies have been done that prove spanking a dog can cause hip problems later on in life.

I agree, I don't like nagging either  My mom does it ALL the time! 

With positive reinforcement specifically, (we've been doing a lot more of it the past few months, my new agility trainer's MAKING me! kidding... well he is, but I'm enjoying it! ROFL) I find that I'm not nagging. I'm rather shaping the whole situation to be one that I can reward.

If I can't find something that's happening naturally to reward, I'll mould the situation into one that I CAN reward.

I've found Roxy to have lightened up a bit, and to have more interest in certain activities that she didn't used to. Heeling for example, agility in general as well.

And Hades, is moving along in beginner agility like lightening! He rarely shuts down and I find he's learning faster.

There are still old habits of mine that just won't seem to die, like leash popping or verbally correcting for a foot out of place, but it's something I need to work on! LOL


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## wolfy (Aug 9, 2007)

I'll be honest here, I am totally and utterly against shock collars, for a number of reasons.....

1) They are painful. I do not agree with any of the claims that an electric shock does not hurt and is just for getting the dog's attention. If this were truly the case, then tapping him, calling him, throwing something on the floor next to him etc. would have exactly the same effect. Shock collars work on the principle of aversives. The single and only purpose is to cause pain. I personally feel this is inhumane.

2) They are unnecessary. They are more training methods and pieces of equipment than you can shake a stick at, there is no need to resort to violence. Thousands of dogs, of all breeds, from all backgrounds have been successfully trained in a variety of disciplines without shocks. In the UK shock collars are not used for training police or military dogs, guide dogs for the blind, hearing dogs for the deaf, canine partners for the disabled etc. All these dogs reach exceptionally high standards of training and obediance without being shocked, so no one can claim it is necessary.

If it is not necessary to use a shock collar, and shock collars hurt, then it is clear that using one causes "unnecessary suffering". To me, using a shock collar is no different to kicking your dog because you had a bad day.

3) They can cause more problems than they solve. This happens in two ways.

One - they can actually make the problem that you are trying to solve much worse. For example, a dog suffering from separation anxiety. The dog barks when left alone because it is anxious, distressed, afraid etc. So you put a bark collar on. Now the dog begins to associate being left alone with being shocked, so it's fear and anxiety levels go up, which causes its separation anxiety to become worse.

Two - they can further problems, particularly aggression. When faced with a fearful situation dogs revert back to the old "fight or flight" response and in this case flight is not an option. The dog can only associate the painful shock with whatever it was focused on at the time. You have no way of ensuring the dog makes the correct association. For example, a friendly dog is in the yard wearing a shock collar linked to an invisible fence. A child walks by and calls the dog to pet him, so the dog approaches the child. Dog gets shocked, associates the pain and fear with the child, and becomes aggressive towards children.

These are serious risks that you take every single time your dog is shocked.

4) They have a high potential for misuse or malfunction. Any moron can go out and buy a shock collar. Some will use the collar deliberately cruelly. Others just won't have a clear understanding of how to use on properly. In both cases it is the dog who suffers. These collars can also go horribly wrong, resulting in the dog receiving constant shocks and causing burns to the neck. Most people know that mixing electricity with water is a bad idea, but will put a shock collar on their dog and let it out in the rain without considering the possible consequences. In my opinion it is just not worth the risk.

5) Aversive methods can impede training. Pain, fear and intense or chronic stress cause changes in the body - namely hormonal changes. From a purely physiological sense these changes inhibit concentration, learning ability and memory formation. By using aversives such as shocks you could actually be slowing down your dogs training.

So there we have it. In my opinion shock collars are at best useless and annoying, at worst can cause serious physical and psychological damage and a reduction in welfare. I wouldn't do it to a child, I certainly wouldn't do it to a dog.


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## john tran (Dec 22, 2006)

lets make this short and sweet...

do you not agree that some people should be put on shock collars? i sure do. if humans (being the most intellectual species on the planet) can have issues with doing what is right and wrong then wouldn't it be that much easier for a dog to not know the difference between right and wrong. 

you can say that if a dog bites the child and he gets shocked he'll associate the child with being shocked and next time he'll want to bite the child.

but i can just as easily turn it around and say that the dog understands that he was only shocked because he bit the child, not because he walked near a child. the point is, you don't just shock the dog. you shock him because he was wrong, but you positively enforce the child by having the child give the dog treats. that's how you properly use an e-collar. shocking is not the end all solution, it's PART of the solution.

just like putting a bad kid in jail for stealing is not the solution, it's just part of it.. sometimes.

john


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

But biting the child is not "wrong" to the dog, nor would a shock instruct the dog what to do. This is the problem with aversives, they are inefficient, and must be severe to be effective. I'm not suggesting this is true for you and your dog, but for the average dog owner this is very true. And I don't know about you, but I don't want average dog owners figuring out what a severe punishment is. I prefer to advocate a friendlier approach by asking the question, _if this is wrong, what is right_? I want my punishments to answer that question. Perhaps laying down when a child enters a room is what's right, and punishing the dog with instuction is the more complete solution without the shock.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I don't think there are many people that would use an e-collar for aggression issues, but for those that do it properly, the "shock" is never given at the time of the growl/snarl/bite.

A woman I speak with used the e-collar successfully in a few short sessions with a very DA dog. Similar to the technique I used with Roxy (which wasn't 100% successful, as this case was). As soon as the dog displayed signs of reacting aggressively, the owner called the dog to come. Of course he didn't and he got stimmed. It's loosely based on koehler's methods, some of which are outdated, but the general theory still applies. If the solid foundation for a behaviour has been laid (this is where most people get lost in koehler's theories and immediately revert to he's forceful, mean, cruel etc. when really he clearly makes a point to take all of the neccessary steps to lay down the foundation for the dog, proof the command, then when the command is known, it's been displayed hundreds of times and the dog does not comply, he get's corrected. If you can pick through the outdated methods and find the good stuff koehler's methods are not cruel or harsh. I prefer to take the beginning steps he lays out which involve NO correction, then when the time comes to correct, I correct to the level I feel neccessary, usually verbal with my guys.) ANYWAYS, that got long, the dog gets corrected for disobeying the recall, it's clear to the dog.

Now whenever the dog feels those "reactive" feelings, he immediately returns to the owner's side.

I agree John, that many feel they push the button and that's it, behaviours over and done with. When as you said, it's only half of it. If you correct, you need to praise. (I feel this way with ANY aversive though)

I disagree that the dog "understands" why they are getting shocked in some situations. Often enough they have no idea why they're getting shocked, that is until you give them an alternate behaviour. And even then, they don't know the original behaviour that caused them to get shocked, they just know what to do to AVOID being shocked. Big difference. Understanding the REASON they got shocked many a time has nothing to do with it. It's avoidance, which is exactly why we use aversives in dog training. An aversive is anything the dog is willing to work for, to avoid.

As for e-collars and rain, if you knew anything about them, you would know that most now a days are waterproof seeing as the majority of people that use them do field work.

I agree Curb. There aren't too many average joe's out there that need a tool like an e-collar. But there are exceptions. A few months ago I had to use the e-collar on Hades. He was bull dozing Roxy, one time, making her lame for a few days. Also, Roxy had corrected Hades, leaving a large gash, now scar on his head above his eye (that was the worst time, there were many others).

Clearly Roxy's correction wasn't working, and Hades still continued to hurt her. I had tried rewarding calm play, but for those of you who own terriers, you know that when a dog is in "terrier mode" they're unreachable. He got stimmed three times just as he was about to doze Roxy, I called him, then rewarded him. That's it. He hasn't done it since. He doesn't wear the collar when we're out on walks, I'm not constantly using it. He wore it on ONE walk, got stimmed three times, and the behaviour is gone.

For circumstances like those, I see/saw no other option other than keeping Hades on leash, and that's just not feasible in our life. 

I think there are always exceptions with dogs, but MOST of the time, normal pet owners will never need a tool like an e-collar. For those that do, the option is there, and I don't believe the e-collar is absolutely cruel or inhumane. I just think it's like any other aversive, and it should be used sparingly.


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## wolfy (Aug 9, 2007)

John Tran - I see what you're saying but there are too many variables. 

Consider the three types of shock collar. The bark collar and the invisible fence collar wil both activate and shock the dog when triggered, in some cases when the owner is not around. In these cases the dog will associate the shock with whatever it was focused on at the time - hence many problems arise.

Remote collars on the other hand give you that level of control - you choose when to shock the dog in order for him to form the correct association. The problem here is that you can't read the dogs mind and have no way of knowing what association he will make.

Say you are walking the dog off leash and he runs over to see someone (in a friendly way). You call him, he ignores you, you shock him. You want the dog to associate not coming when called with getting shocked. He could make this association or he could make many others. He may associate the shock with the person he was focused on. He may associate it simply with being away from you (which could make him afraid to leave your side). He could make a more general association, for example with the place you were and become fearful of the place.

You need to consider that one of the most common causes of aggressive behaviour is fear. Using severe, painful aversives will ALWAYS be a risk for this reason.

Alpha - I appreciate that you used the collar for a good reason, and that you used it minimally, but I still can not accept that it was necessary. Did you try distraction? Training discs? Even a spray collar? No - straight in with the pain....
You also keep referring to it as getting "stimmed". It isn't a stimulation -it is an electric shock. I just wish people would admit that.

As for Koehler - trying to root through the abuse just isn't worth it in my opinion. He knew very little about dog behaviour and learning, recommended brutal abuse for simple problems, after-the-fact punishment etc. and never considered the possiblity that most, if not all dogs, do not need to be forced and beaten into submission. I'm sorry, I will save my respect for the trainers that actually have a clue what they are talking about.

I forgot to add.... a major part of my problem with shock collars is that they treat the symptom and not the cause of a problem.

Yes, you could use shocks to "cure" aggressive behaviour, or any other problem, but you do not stop the dog having those feelings, only stop him acting upon.
If your dog is reactive, and DA or HA then you need to analyse the situation, find out WHY (fear, lack of socialisation etc) and overcome this. A dog shocked into not biting may still be fearful of dogs, as a dog shocked for barking when alone will still suffer from separation anxiety.

Only by treating the cause do you fully "cure" the problem. By treating the symptom you only hide or redirect the symptom, and could end up with a time-bomb dog.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Many people use e collars incorrectly and granted there are many ecollars out there available that are just not good; however, there are some e-collars that are excellent training tools. When people refer to the dog gettng a "shock" from the collar I immediately envision this zap, the dog jumping and crying--that is NOT what the collar is designed to do and should never be used that way. Many of the higher end remote collars have "pager" modes so there is no "shock" at all, it is a vibration. I have an ecollar that I had a trainer come in and teach me how to use properly. It was not being used from aggression issues or any kind of anxiety issues. Not all dogs are candidates for an ecollar, specifically aggressive, fearful dogs that suffer from anxiety. When used properly it is an excellent training tool and the "shock" per se is nothing more than a finger snap--of course when used properly. The different levels of stimulation are because different breeds of dogs have different levels of pain tolerance and what is annoying to one dog may not be felt by another. It has worked wonders with our off-leash training. Additionally I have received e-stim on my back and it doesn't hurt (again when used properly) and it is facilitating a healing process, making me better. The ecollar is the same concept when used properly, not abused, and a person is educated about using it (heck, I work in healthcare and would not have even thought about using e-stim on myself or anyone else until I took a course in how to use it correctly--which I did) I do understand what you are saying tho, many people buy these things, use them without any training, use them for the wrong reasons and downright abuse them


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

wolfy, as for my use with Hades, it's clear you've never worked with terriers, or the work you did was limited.

Terriers are known for having a one track mind and being impossible to distract when they in that mode. It's comparable from trying to call a bloodhound off a heavy scent. If you read my post, you would see that I did try a completely NON aversive method, and it was utterly hopeless. *So, NO, I did not go straight to "pain" as you so put it.* Perhaps you should read posts thoroughly before going straight to the accusoratory tone and making yourself look like an a$$. 

May I ask how I'm supposed to spray my dogs, (possibly blinding them or impairing their eyesight) from more than 50 feet away? Must be a pretty good sprayer 

Also wolfy, we're clearly on different levels when it comes to this issue. Roxy is important to me, so is Hades. I needed, YES, a quick solution to a growing, DANGEROUS problem. And the e-collar provided that solution, QUICKLY and painlessly. Yes I used the word "stimmed", which is short form for stimulation. Which is exactly what the e-collar does, it stimulates the muscles around the neck areak, wherever the collar is causing an unpleasant, uncomfortable feeling. Much like what you suggest, squirting a dog in the face with most likely an acidic substance. I'm no dog, but I would much prefer a jolt from a 9volt batter than pepper spray.

And as for koehler, that's your opinion. Mine is, his foundation steps for UD excercises tend to be the most successful, as with other novice and open excercises. If your too lazy to pick through and understand what he's saying, long before he gets to the ear pinch, than we're not on the same level.

I've never denied that the e-collar is a shock... so once again, perhaps you should go back and read posts ALL THE WAY THROUGH, until typing out a response that makes you look foolish. In fact ten pages ago *I* was the one, asking for people to admit that the e-collar is an unpleasant avserive that the dog works to avoid. Boy, you look silly. 

ETA- That I just realized your aversive method, the sprayer has the same inconsistencies as the e-collar when it comes to aggressive behaviours. If I sprayed Hades in the face causing an unpleasant burning sensation in his eye, he would still associate the awful feeling with Roxy would he not?


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

First off, if I ever, which I would NEVER, sprayed something in my dog's eyes--he would associate the pain with me spraying something in his face. Remote collars are not put in the dog's face, pressed and the dog gets electrocuted--they associate the unpleasant feeling with the undesirable behavior and therefore avoid the behavior to avoid the stimulation. Seems to me spraying something in a dogs face is just wrong and would only make a fearful, anxious dog more so--plus I don't see how that can get any positive results--and that REALLY hurts (I was cutting a lemon once and the juice squirt in my eye boy did that burn)


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

First, let me say I never thought I'd see this thread brought back to life! 
I know I've said this before but... my guys are professionally obedience trained. They are confirmed in their commands, but they are not mindless robots. They sometimes need commands reinforced for whatever reason. Since I take them out and let them run in safe, appropriate places, I'd like to know how I'm supposed to reinforce a command from 100 yards away? Spray them in the face? I'd need a powerful spray bottle for that wouldn't I? I really don't think spraying them in the face would work if they're 100 yds away and get focused on chasing a deer. I think I'd be freaking lucky if I found them by dark. 

I agree that dogs should not be trained using a remote trainer. I personally think they are a great tool for reinforcing commands already learned or breaking bad habits. When used to break a bad habit, the remote collar is invaluable because you don't have to say a word. The dog will associate the tone or nick (yes, it is a nick not an electrocution!) with the habit not you. I use them primarily as a means of controlling my dogs when they are off lead. 

By the way, dogs being dogs, when these guys see the collars come out, they get uncontrollably excited because they know they're going for a run. There is no negative reaction to the collar here. Handled correctly, there shouldn't be. 

Just a question Wolfy, have you ever used a remote trainer? Are you a trainer? You have some pretty strong opinions and I'm just curious what experience you've had to base your opinions on. Not being rude, just curious


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I agree wholeheartedly Ginny.

I see the "spraying" technique being reccomended a lot, often with substances like vinegar diluted in the bottle. I don't know how acidic substances feel to a dog when sprayed in their eye, but I do know, that in my mind, when I compare the shock from an e-collar, to being sprayed in the eye, the latter is definitely at the bottom of my list.

Besides, it's just not practical for what I used the e-collar for. As Reno said, it's just not feasible to spray a dog from 100yards away.

Between the two aversives, the setting that most use on e-collars, and spraying a dog in the face, I would say the e-collar is LESS aversive.

I don't use my e-collar often, actually other than once with Roxy, once using the sound button for reinforcing recalls in heavy distraction settings and the other situation I mentioned with Hades, it sits in the closet. BUT, for the latter situation, I was glad I had it. It came in awful handy for a dangerous behaviour, that could've lead to more fights between my two dogs or a serious injury for Roxy.

I think most people on this board use the e-collar sparingly and coupled with enough reward that their dogs aren't scared or in pain. It's a personal decision, mine is, it's come in handy for ceasing an unwanted behaviour and I like to have that option, even though it's not a training tool I use in our everyday sessions.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

It's very simple to tell whether an e-collar, or any other training tool for that matter, is effective...count how many stims you use one week versus how many stims you use in another week, and under the same conditions. If the total number of stims in the earliest week is less than the total number of stims in the later week, it's working and we can deem it effective. I can't argue with a trainer/handler that gathers this kind of information. The proof is in the numbers, so long as the dog isn't visibly agitated or stressed.

However, back to my point about the average dog handler...very few, if any, have the timing necessary to see any effect on the quantity of stims from week to week. And to this point I have to argue, is it effective? IMO, no. I would say the same about a clicker. If you're still clicking for sits weeks later, the clicker isn't working, it's not effective...at least in your hands, we need to try something else. 

In regards to the e-collar, this to me is where the difference is between what is humane and what is not. To not move on to another form of training, and to keep stimming a dog, after you've proved the number of stimms isn't reduced over time, IMO is does bring in the question of humanity...regardless of what we humans perceive the aversive to be.

I think were people get lost in the e-collar discussion is when all they know is the horror stories, and there are many. But there are probably more positive stories overall. This doesn't qualify the e-collar as an effective tool, however, you still need to provide the numbers.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

> In regards to the e-collar, this to me is where the difference is between what is humane and what is not. To not move on to another form of training, and to keep stimming a dog, after you've proved the number of stimms isn't reduced over time, IMO is does bring in the question of humanity...regardless of what we humans perceive the aversive to be.


What an excellent point! As with *any tool* we use in dog training, it's just that: You use it, it works, you don't need to use it anymore. Perhaps the odd touch up here or there but if your still using a "heavy" aversive (I don't ever really think verbal aversives are expected to be totally phased out, I mean aversives like prongs, chokes, e-collars whatever, a *physical* aversive I suppose) than the method your using is not working and it's time to move on.

I think the e-collar is an effective tool, when used properly for the right reasons. I don't think the numbers would show it's an effective tool because of how often it's used improperly. If that makes sense. Perhaps some behaviours are ceased, (when it's used improperly) but others will most likely arise out of it's misuse.


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## Veltish (Jul 29, 2007)

Ill say..this thread has totally changed my veiws on things.

i used to HATE and be totally against e collars. it started when i was about 9yrs. old. my brother bought one from a garage sale and put it on my toy poodle and then whie he was in the bathroom my younger brother( not knowing any better) played with the remote. shocking my poodle continuously. i was upstairs watching TV on the couch at the time and i heard SHRIEKING in the basement. i ran down there to find my poodle freaking out,yelping.. running all over tail tucked and scared to all heck. 

im not sure what level it was on.. i never thoguht to check.. i was young and just wanted to get it off my baby. my brothers snotty remark was that he was a whimp..but after trying it on himself and thinking it hurt a little bit.. i made him realise how it must have felt on a dog that only weighed 8 or 9 lbs. never the less he was grounded and i hated him for EVER for it.. ive been against those things ever since... gosh..years and years ago..but i still get sick to my stomach thinking about it.

but after reading the several posts on this thread i realise the good they can do. my boyfriend has been thinking about getting one for gauge who has a major problem with running away when you call him and he has no intention of coming any time soon. and now he's begun to run under vehices to get away and he can almost outrun my boyfriend now, so its getting out of hand.. thats a German Shorthair for ya though... i spite the little devil but he's so darn cute.. lol. but i guess im considering not freaking out if he brings one home for gauge.


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## wolfy (Aug 9, 2007)

Alpha - I'm curious - do you actually take pleasure in dedicating an entire post to sla**ing me off? 

Let me put this simply. I have very strong feelings about animal welfare. Shock collars are painful. They are unecessary. Result = unnecessary suffering for the dog = morally questionable. That is the reason I may come across as accusatory.

Firstly - let me explain the spray thing, as no one seems to have a clue what I'm talking about.
There are such things as remote collars and bark collars that do not work by giving the dog an electric shock. Instead they squirt a puff of water under the dogs chin (it would have to be a funny shaped collar to squirt him in the eyes!) The strength of the squirt is equivalent to one of those hand held water bottles you mist houseplants with. In most cases the water is scented, usually with citronella. This is harmless, but dogs do not like the smell. The collar works primarily as a distraction (the squirt) and a mild aversive (the nasty smell). In this sense it works much the same as a shock collar, only without the pain factor. For these reasons yes it has the same risks of wrong associations etc as the shock - but because it is non-painful and does not trigger a fear response is less likely to cause fall-out behaviour problems such as aggression. Again, I would certainly not recommend a spray collar for standard training, although I can appreciate they may be useful in certain circumstances. Many of the cases where shock collars are used spray collars could be used to equal effect with no pain and lower risks.

For those of you that assumed I was actually suggesting squirting acid into a dogs eyes, oh please - do I really come across as some as some sort of sadist?  

Now, the reason I object to the word "stimmed" is a matter of personal experience. Most of the people I have come across who use the word "stimmed" are those that know they are inflicting a painful electric shock on their dog and try to cover it up by using nicer, gentler sounding vocabulary. These same people also always use the word "correction", rather than "punishment" or for the same reasons. It makes them sound much more humane than they actually are.
Now before anyone gets offended by that note the word "most" at the beginning. I know lots of people use the two words discussed above, and not all are sadists or or those trying to cover up - but by using nice fluffy vocab that is how they come across. 

Renoman - my opinions on shock collars come primarily from extensive research and study of dog behaviour. My degree involved a lot of animal behaviour work, including learning theory, operant conditioning etc and a certain amount of biology of behaviour. I know that pain, fear and stress inhibit learning = this is scientific fact! The sole purpose of physical aversives such as shocks (as opposed to pure distracion) is to cause pain - not necessarily agony but pain all the same. If you actually take the time to study animal behaviour, dog behaviour, learning theory, etc you would start to see why certain methods are fundamentally flawed, or at least difficult to use and risky. A great many proffesional dog trainers train without these devices - including dogs in the forces, service dogs, competitoin dogs, pet dogs etc - which leads to the obvious conclusion that they are unnecessary. By definition - IF you are doing something aversive to the dog, and IF that action is unnecessary then it is simpl needless violence. There are also extensive examples of dogs that have been seriously damaged (physically or psychologically) by these collars, either through normal use or malfunction so this is not out of the question. And while I have not trained a dog with a shcok collar (and never will) I have tried one myself and it does hurt.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wolfy said:


> I know that pain, fear and stress inhibit learning = this is scientific fact!


There's no scientist in the world that would try to prove this "fact" in our current political environment. I'm not aware of any scientific evidence proving this "fact". If so, I'd love to see it. Are you basing this statement on Skinner's work and the theories many have made from there? Because I'm sure PETA would have a field day if they knew this kind of evidence was being produced.

Thus my point on, show me the numbers. Test-train-test, that's all we as dog handlers can do to prove a given tool is effective. I've told others here that my would rather I kick her than raise my voice. Yelling at her emotionally crushes her...yet, I wouldn't constitute that as painful nor inhumane in an emergency situation. Stressful, yes, but not painful. The aversive can only be determined by the dog, not by how we perceive it. But we can make better judgements if we look at the numbers. In the same breath though, I can't argue with your humanity. 

I agree that other methods should be exhausted first before using a tool, and as a human I agree that e-collars can be used to deliver pain, and I agree that we should approach dog training as humanely as possible, but if an e-collar can save a dog's life, it's still an option IMO...even if it's being used only because the handler is unwilling to try other methods of training.


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## Barhund Canine (Aug 28, 2007)

It's just like anything else any tool in dog training can have adverse effects on the dog. I have used e-collars and have had great succes with them. It completely depends on the temperament of the dog and what behavior you are dealing with, and the situation. Most of the time if one is used a low setting is all you need which is usually less than the stimuli you receive if you have ever had a Dr. use electric stimulation on you. A lot of trainers like to use an e-collar for what they call escape training. Which in my opinion is forced training because they apply stimuli until the dog follows the command. It is also correct that you cannot correct an obedience command a dog does not know. The e-collar should not be used as the first tool of choice either there are a few rare exceptions I can think of, and that would even be a well thought out plan. I agree that most average dogs will not need an e-collar and will work well with most training methods. Again it all depends on knowing your dogs temperament and how well it is initially trained. I see people get screwed up on operant conditioning and classical conditioning, and clicker (marker) training. You have people on both ends of the spectrum. You can humanely correct a dog whether with a leash, collars, e-collars, positive reinforcement. Believe it or not you can build motivation and have a dog get more focused by using corrections, they can be leash corrections, cue words or other forms like a noise of some sort to let the dog know the behavior is unwanted and you are asking something else, There are a lot of myths that surround what works and what doesn't work from proponents from both ends. When dealing with behavior or training issues one needs to understand how a dogs mind works, there are a lot of factors involved from breeding practices, genetics, the dogs experiences, and the interaction it has with humans. One needs to also know the proper timing to give reinforcement, give corrections, and give affection. If you give affection to a dog that is stressed and in a fearful state and you give affection and try to console them it will tend to reinforce the behavior. It also applies to a dog showing aggression by growling and snapping. Over correcting or undercorrecting will give you problems also. You over correct you have a dog that goes completely submissive and usually gets fearful, undercorrect and you have a dog that does what they want when they want. You give them affection and tell them that it is ok you will reinforce the aggression. It gets very complicated and takes years to learn the theory of corrections, positive reinforcement, and understanding what drives, motivates, and takes motivation away. The best trainers I have seen have learned to use methods from the entire spectrum of theories, methods and techniques. These are the people I have learned from. I have seen a lot of certified behavorists stuck in one mode also. A good behaviorst will also be vary versatile and open to the owners and the pets needs. I am basically a third generation trainer that started with my grandmother to my father and then to me. Dog training has went from one extreme to the next. Most of the time a dogs behavior is directly related to the interactions with humans. It's very hard for people that doesn't have very much experience to sift through the BS. There is no quick fix things like fix your dog in six days. There are no instrunction manuals on how to deal with each problem in a specific way explaining this is the best way to deal with this or that. Each owner is different and so are their dogs.The biggest thing to correcting problems is applying the proper leadership skills, along with applying rules, boudaries and limitations and figuring out how to humanely and correctly applying exercise, discipline and affection. It takes a lot of time, patients, and experience to become a resposible pet owner, trainer, or behaviorist. Another misconception that is flying around by certain crowds is that there are no alpha dogs or pack behavior in domestic dogs. I beg to differ because I see pack behavior everyday, and deal with it everyday. That is another important thing to understand. The difference between pack behavior and how to deal with it and the difference of obedience training and knowing when a dog knows a command, working with those commands, knowing when to add distractions, how to divert the dogs reactions to distractions, and maintaining the commands. Learning the timing to deal with everything is critical, only experience and working with your pet will give you that. Learning and undestanding body lanquage, gestures, vocalizations, and the behavior your dog is exibitng at the time. It can also be very difficult to find out when the unwanted behavior started and why, because by the time people realize that there is a problem it has escalated from behavior they thought was cute as a puppy or completely missed the signs and didn't discourage because they thought it was a charactaristic of a breed and dismissed it or misunderstood what was happening. I would have to disagree with the comment on stress inhibiting learning, in certain sports and training stress is used to moitvate a dog to perform, I will agree that if someone doesn't understand using stress to pull certain drives out of a dog and pushes them over the edge can inhibit learning. In a common house pet yes stress can be very detrimental and damaging. The best way to dealing with problems and training is prevention by educating yourself finding the best possible techniques and methods you are comfortable using, and talking to people that have happy, stable, well behaved dogs and finding out what they did and do to accomplish this.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

No wolfy, I don't take pleasure in "sla**ing" you off... whatever that means...

I was just stating my opinion on the comparison between what I thought you were talking about (something that is often reccomended, at least something I see a lot) to the subject at hand. 

I personally don't believe that the e-collar causes, PAIN, per se. At least not, internally damaging, mind wrenching pain. I do believe that it makes a dog uncomfortable, perhaps scared (if they don't know where the shock is coming from). Yes it would be painful if you had it on a high setting, but I personally don't view the shock from the e-collar, (at least where mine is set) to be painful. Uncomfortable, yes, that's why it works. But painful... that's stretching it for me.

Do I believe it causes unneccessary suffering for a dog? Hmm, I'd have to say no, unless it's set at too high a level. Suffering's a pretty strong word, and I personally don't believe that it's proper word for MY personal use of the e-collar.

Pure distraction? That is what you reccomend?

Why then did you state to use a spray collar? A spray collar is definitely not distraction, it's an aversion.



> The sole purpose of physical aversives such as shocks *(as opposed to pure distracion)* is to cause pain - not necessarily agony but pain all the same.


I mean that there. Are you saying that people use shocks, instead of using what they should be using, "pure distraction"?

What if you don't have a distraction/motivation great enough to deter your dog from doing said behaviour?

I will tell you this, when Hades is in terrier mode, I could have a dripping in blood sirloin steak and it wouldn't matter. I could whoop and holler and have a blast and he wouldn't care. He's in TERRIER mode. One track minded, high drivey, don't give a darn what I say or do mode.

I do use distraction with him often in training, even in that mode, when my other dog, or anyone else is NOT at risk. When it's a safe place for him to continue doing the unwanted behaviour while I try to distract and reward. But in this circumstance, this was NOT a safe place for him to continue this behaviour. This was a dangerous situation for my other dog, and even Hades if Roxy decided to correct. (Which she has before and it resulted in a gash, now scar about an inch above Hades eye)

So your humane answer would be keep him on leash? Walk them separately?

Shucks, that just ain't feasible. And lord knows I can ask him, but he can't answer, but as his faithful, loyal, loving and caring parent, I know his answer. Three shocks compared to hours of fun romping with his favourite pals?

My sig pic says it all. (They aren't cropped in next to each other! haha )

My dog's offleash privileges were at risk. I had a choice. I made it. He's not mentally scarred. His outlook on walks has most definitely not been dimmed. And my goal, to stop Hades from bulldozing Roxy was achieved. I don't use it anymore for this purpose. That's a good tool in my eyes. I used it, it worked and everyone's for the better.


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## Aussiefan (Jan 21, 2007)

I think under certain circumstances with certain dogs an E-Collar can be helpful AFTER being trained on how to use them. I do find it funny that some people are DEAD set against E-Collars yet are perfectly happy recommending invisible fences...interesting logic seeing how its the same concept, same shock...


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Aussiefan said:


> I think under certain circumstances with certain dogs an E-Collar can be helpful AFTER being trained on how to use them. I do find it funny that some people are DEAD set against E-Collars yet are perfectly happy recommending invisible fences...interesting logic seeing how its the same concept, same shock...


Actually my trainer told me that an invisible fence uses a much higher frequency ("shock") than an ecoller.--The fence actually cause pain where the collar causes an annoyance.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

I use them only as a last resort to difficult or unmanageable dogs; I use them in conjunction with conventional methods and try to 'get rid' of them as soon as I can...


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## 2boys1princess (Sep 15, 2007)

We have one for Leah. We only use it for when she tries to go after our cat (we have 3 cats but she only wants to chase the orange one for some reason). We've only had to use it twice and she doesn't bark at or chase the cat anymore. In fact, we found them sitting about a foot apart today on the porch, both resting comfortably  Big step up from last week!

My husband and I both put it on our own hands at the lowest level (there are 7 levels). My husband could hardly feel it but I thought it felt like when you bump your funny bone. Irritating and tingly but nothing too horrible.....I would imagine that the higher levels are downright painful but we only use the first level for Leah.

Tracy


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

2boys1princess said:


> My husband and I both put it on our own hands at the lowest level (there are 7 levels). My husband could hardly feel it but I thought it felt like when you bump your funny bone. Irritating and tingly but nothing too horrible.....I would imagine that the higher levels are downright painful but we only use the first level for Leah.


IMO, testing these collars on ourselves is pointless. I defy any human to *feel* the static charge of an approaching storm, and find the best place to be grounded, like a dog can, with human senses (insert poor before human). The gap in perception with tests like this is so unbridgeable that it's like asking your dog to have the same sensory response to a van Gogh painting as you do. What we feel is not what the dog feels, and we shouldn't use a test like this to justify their use.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Love's_Sophie said:


> I use them only as a last resort to difficult or unmanageable dogs; I use them in conjunction with conventional methods and try to 'get rid' of them as soon as I can...


Excellent post!


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

We use an ecollar on Cameron to stop deer chasing. He's taken off after deer and followed them across streets and down into the woods where there can be hunters. That is not acceptable. It's too dangerous to let him do that.

We tried everything we could think of to get him to not chase deer. We worked with a trainer for a long time. Finally we got the collar. 

We taught him the command "Stop" first. We did it on the leash and then off the leash. The ecollar did not go on him until we knew that he knew "Stop". We also agreed that the ONLY COMMAND that we would reinforce with the collar was Stop.

Cameron knows when the collar is on and mostly will not run when it is on. We have had to use it a few times. Once he starts running he doesn't hear us yell or he doesn't pay attention. Each time the collar has worked. It gets his attention enough that he listens to us call for him to come.

I'd much rather have a dog that feels a very short shock than a dog that is hit by a car or that gets shot. But, like I said, this was the last resort and we use it for only one command.


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## Occy (Oct 3, 2007)

If the choices are e collar or death, e collar wins. Have jut recommended it to a friend whose dog is going to be roadkill if she cant curb her chasing behaviour. She has tried everything else and this is their last option


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## houndhugger (Nov 10, 2007)

I'm new to this forum, and have been trying to research e-collars, and educate myself, as I am considering using one.
May I say I appreciate how civil this forum has been. I am a coonhound owner, along with owning a senior lab. I have owned and trained many breeds of dogs through my years of having the honor to share my life with my dogs.
But I have hit the thorny point of dealing with a hunting dog, who is not hunted, but is a companion animal. Who was bred to follow his nose. And to follow it well, to the exclusion of everything else. He is maybe 2-3 years old, and I have been hoping to see improvements with his maturing. But I still have a dog on a prong collar who will bolt at all the deer we run into...guaranteed ...every day.
Who will not respond to a choke collar. And who , if i have on a flat leash, will pull me off my feet. A dog who has never been off of a leash in- the almost two years I have had him.
I refuse to use a choke chain on him. And I am not much happier using a prong.
And I am getting pretty disheartened that even the prong is not seeming to work at times. This may be because I will not do a yank and crank. But as the years with my dogs have passed, so has my willingness to be that extreme. Education is coming with age.
So I am at the point where i am thinking that an electronic collar is going to be more humane, than escalating the use of a prong.
This dog can be amazing at times. He will hold in place when told. Do all basic and more, obedience. But take him out of the fenced yard, and that nose....just takes over. And I refuse to be jerking him all over the place.
This is a breed I knew nothing about when we rescued him. And I would do it over again in a heart beat.
I have tried to figure out if I should be able to over come his genetics....and questioned whether moving onto an e-collar is the right thing to do. May I say, if you have never owned a dog bred to be "a nose on 4 legs' you may not understand what i am dealing with here. 
But thanks to you all, the pro's and the anti's as I appreciate the views and thoughts as I try to find more info.


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## noseysadie (Jul 2, 2007)

Houndhugger,
How has your research been going on ecollars. I have a coonhound that we use for trail riding and hope to use for air-scenting and tracking. The ecollar helps us to control her on the trails when it is critical that she hear us instead of her nose. Would love to talk to a fellow coonhound parent.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Let me start ut by saying that I do not believe in using aversives to train a dog. That is today and that is my approach. 

However, I did use an E collar when I also used classical training of reward and punishment. This example will show why aversives don't work and why I ended up using an E collar ONE TIME and, while I still have the collar, it is now 20 years later and I have never used it again.

I had a cattle dog. she had a real desire to eat cow Afterbirth. One time she ate afterbirth but in so doing she also damaged a cow's vulva. Cow could never be bred again and I lost the cow at the end of her lactation. She was a very good cow and this was a large loss. 

The dog had been trained using aversives. She knew, when I was around, that if she went near a cow with afterbirth, there would be heck to pay. When a cow calved the dog would slink away knowing not to do this behavior as long as I was present. 

However, if I left the barn for any reason (to get a thermometer or to wash milking machines) and a cow had calved and there was afterbirth (placenta) present, that dog was in it like LIGHTNING. My using aversives did not extinguish the behavior. It extinguished it in my presence. 

So, here I have a very smart dog who I cannot punish...b because I can no longer catch her in the act, so I got an E collar. 

The next time a cow calved I put that cow down at the far end of the barn. The dog was wearing the Ecollar. I watched through a crack in the door (collar was set at medium). Well, after about 3 minutes, the dog got up and went right to that cow with the after birth. As she reached for the after birth I hit the control. 

Anyone who says the collar does not hurt did not use it on my dog (dogs are notoriously sensitive to electricity). I think that dog jumped 5 feet off the ground HOWLING.. she kept the howling up running all the way up to the milkhouse where I was hiding (I only pressed the button for a second and only once). I came out of the milkhouse and comforted her (the poor dog routine). 

At first I was not sure if this cured her, I kept the e collar on her for the next few calvings but the dog never touched another cow. If a cow started to calve she would leave the area. 

I was lucky. The dog made the associaton between the aversion and her action. My timing was perfect. 

If I had not been perfect on my timing. If the dog had not made the association. If the Ecollar had not affected her.. None of this would ahve worked. 

Today I would not use aversives in the first place to train the dog. Fact is, I hope to never use them again. Other methods work better. 

I still have the Ecollar in storage. The box collects dust and reminds me of how not to train a dog.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I use one for Kody. Yes my BABY BOY gets shocked. He has the petsafe bark collar. He used to have the ultrasonic one, but other dogs barking would set that off, and I have other dogs so it would correct him when it didn't need to be. He now has the automatic electronic one, and I love it. Its not mean because he doesn't bark when it's on. Its just a constant reminder that if he does bark, he gets a little zap. I havent tested it on myself, but my neighbor has one and she said it feels like when you rub your feet on the carpet and touch someone. It really is the surprise. I never considered it before, but he will bark all day long if he can. When it first went off he jumped back and squealed and ran to me, which was sad, but it was nice that he didn't associate the correction with me. In the morning before I leave for work I simply say, "Kodes come get your collar," and he runs over and sits down at my feet and let's me put it on. We used to call it his bad boy collar, because we'd put it on him when he started barking. Now he is so good, that we just put it on if we think he is going to be in a situtation where he might bark, and he does great.


ONE THING TO KEEP IN MIND: My beagle is EXTREMELY SMART. He will whine and semi bark quietly to avoid the shock. So he does still whine if i leave the house, but the neighbors can't hear him whining, they can only hear his beagle bay.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

Just for peoples info make sure you get a reputable collar and don't skimp on it and don't use it if you are not fully sensitive to your dogs needs. My friend said her husband bought one for the constant barking during the day. So they left the collar on him and FORGOT about it and the poor dog had serious burns and blisters around his neck. She said she was going to take him to the vet and I told her they might bust her for animal neglect or crulety.She got scared as she should have. Everyone here seems to be far from that kind of owner and know how to use it appropriately but I just wanted to point out it's not to be used be the less attentive owner.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I know that wasnt directed towards me, but since I expressed how its on him during the day I figured I'd elaborate.

I leave for work at 11am. I put the collar on him, and leave. My finace gets home from work between 2 and 5, depending on the day. So it's on him for a MAX of 6 hrs a day. It should not be on for more than 11 hrs at a time per the instructional video, (yeah I'm a nerd I watched it,) and you should always check for discomfort. I don't make it too tight especially because if it's on he just knows not to bark. Im going to switch soon and tape a matchbox to his regular collar, but he might be too smart for that.

A couple times Kody would have some red skin where the prongs go, so I left it off him for a while. he never gets on it during the weekend, but he is a beagle, so I do have to put it on him when I leave.

I agree with the last post though, make sure you know what you're doing. you can't just slap it on him and expect an overnight transformation. I personally am trying to phase out the bark collar. When he doesnt bark and its off him, I call him and put on his "good boy collar" which is his regular one with his tag. he loves that one.


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

Oh yeah,it wasn't intended for any of the posts i've read. And they left it on him for like 3 days straight cuz they weren't nerds and didn't read the video or full instructions. I am such a nerd too when it comes to my dog.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

oh yeah, I always read things, I dont want anything happening to my babies! haha. I didnt think it was towards me but I just wanted to clarify in case anyone did haha


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## allison (Jun 26, 2008)

OK after wvasko said the term "e-collar" i found this thread, so I am bringing it back .. lol

I want to know more about the alternative methods people talk about besides using the collar and why it shouldn't be used as a first method.

Just a side note, my dog knows sit, stay, laydown... but sometimes he doesn't listen. He also jumps on newcomers and needs to learn heel (he doesn't know this at all). 

Please do not think you will offend me.. I really want to know how I can train my dog so he is 100% happy. 

Thanks !


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Here are some threads that can help, I'd also suggest a good positive reenforcement class. I know there are a couple good ones in Vegas, look for trainers that are iaabc certified.

Greeting Politely at the door 

Doggy Zen 

Loose Leash Walking Using Positive Reinforcers


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

they are a remarkable training tool they are impersonal consistent not affected by strength of handler ,distance or the fact the leash is not there..more people spend time warning people about how bad they are then people do showing you how to use them right .Dogtra makes a great collar for pets that has a pager mode so its easy for people to use heres a quick explanation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU2T_zzLKCQ heres the same dog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fLy9lMHsUM heres a little yorkie I just love this little dog http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h- if you get one get one with the pager


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

Don't expect opinions to change about the e-collar any time soon. No doubt they actually are the easiest of all of our training devises to use abusively. The irony tho' is that over the years I have seen more dogs abused with a normal flat buckle collar than any other tool. 99.9% of all abuse comes from ignorance of how to use a tool properly. I'm not talking about the kind of abuse seen on Animal Cops, but the abuse that is never seen and most of the time the abuser has no idea about what they did.

Now:
I have probably used an e-collar longer than anyone on this board. I still have an A1-80 laying around somewhere. That old collar was likely made before some of you were born, and isn't much different than just strapping a cattle prod to a dogs neck. But even comparing that old collar to the advanced training methods of before the e-collar makes collar training look like correction free training in comparison, do you know what "rat shot" is? How about "hanging"?
An observation from training field trial dogs for over 50 years is that we are training dogs to nationally competitive level that would never have been able to stand up to the rigors of training 50 years ago. Trial dogs at least have become softer, not harder, because of the use of the collar.

Mention was made earlier in this thread about "nagging". My observation is that absolutely nothing will drag a dogs attitude down quicker and farther than to many ineffective corrections instead of making an affective correction and getting it over with.

I doubt that I will ever find a need to use an e-collar for training a dog to play in the back yard with the grandkids. (great grandkids now) But, for many types of upper level training, the e-collar is the greatest advancement since sliced bread.

Still havent gotten anyone on here to explain what 'sit-nick-sit" is and what "nick-sit-nick" is . Two very inportant concepts in collar training.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Blunder I actually started out using the A-1 80 too! its was considered advanced at that time an upgrade from the 70 and they also had the 90 which was there most advanced model ,,,but I disagree that opinions are not going to change anytime soon, back in the early 80s tri tronics was the only game in town now there are probably a dozen companies marketing collars, the pet market is huge much bigger than the field trial or hunting market there are countless schools across the country that specialize in collar training and its widely accepted by most people who are educated..people who do not use them correctly have zero luck so I think people seek ways to use them properly instead of abuse them..I think the three action introduction is the most succesful way for anyone to introduce the collar and have a well balanced dog..P'S.I would love to here about some of your trial dogs!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

blunder said:


> Don't expect opinions to change about the e-collar any time soon. No doubt they actually are the easiest of all of our training devises to use abusively. The irony tho' is that over the years I have seen more dogs abused with a normal flat buckle collar than any other tool. 99.9% of all abuse comes from ignorance of how to use a tool properly. I'm not talking about the kind of abuse seen on Animal Cops, but the abuse that is never seen and most of the time the abuser has no idea about what they did.
> 
> Now:
> I have probably used an e-collar longer than anyone on this board. I still have an A1-80 laying around somewhere. That old collar was likely made before some of you were born, and isn't much different than just strapping a cattle prod to a dogs neck. But even comparing that old collar to the advanced training methods of before the e-collar makes collar training look like correction free training in comparison, do you know what "rat shot" is? How about "hanging"?
> ...


Blunder
It's been so long that I don't remember the model number but it was in the late 60's that I had a 1 button, 1 mile range Tri-Tronics used for field trial dogs. Pointing breeds. I'm also interested in knowing what breeds you trialed. You are correct in the cattle prod comparison or maybe now being tasered would be a good comparison.

Kelly 
I'm not so sure that the people seek ways to use collars correctly, I believe that there are many that believe the cure-all commercial messaging that the companies marketing the collars throw out that the average dog owner thinks this is the way to go. I think it's like buying an HD-A35 HD-DVD player or a PS3 Bluray Game/DVD player and when you take it out of the box you immediately have to upgrade and all that entails to use the brand new electronic toy. Obviously the big difference is that the dog pays the price. Now understand one thing both you and Blunder are new to the forum, I am a self professed, old school, 70% negative dog trainer. I started professional training in 1963 and am still training now. I just do obed. work now and prong collar 90% of the time. I believe there have been many dogs fried by ignorance of the proper e-collar use, as with any training tool used with lack of experience. My Opinion Only.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

I think dogtra markets their pet models as just that ,the pager was originally designed for pointers because they can be so sensitive but that was ten years ago they have become the popular user friendly collar for novice trainers because you introduce the collar by virtue of the pager not the stimulus ....I am on the Dogtra Pro team so I am constantly contacted by people who want to do right by thier dog,not punish or be abusive to the dog far from it, it's ''their baby''my clients are intelligent and well educated and this type of training can be costly they expect results and we exceed their expectations we rarely even use the continuous only the pager and nick.but there are always going to be people that misuse things whatever it is.I don't have time to focus on them ,they are beyond hope;]

here is a video we made today explaining the pager collar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImvbBW4ULJY the dog is Cody I just love him he was one of the puppies from last year


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## lindz (Oct 4, 2008)

th e collars they talking about are activated with a wand (remote) but a bark collar has the same effect without having to grab for the remote. It will stimulate as soon as they bark from the vibration. This is a much better option as it will react imedietly rather than having to fumble for the remote. When put on corectly it should not come off unless your other dogs chew it off. the collars on put on a little tighter than normal ones so to ensure the prongs touch them at all times no matter how much the collar moves around. good luck!
this was in answer to the questin on just using the ecollar for a barking dog.


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## westiefamily (Oct 5, 2008)

I think that it depends on the size and stubbornness of the breed. Like this guy when he get big how do you control and train a moose? e-collars have there place in training. Also make sure you have the right collar for the size dog.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

westiefamily said:


> *I think that it depends on the size and stubbornness of the breed.* Like this guy when he get big how do you control and train a moose? e-collars have there place in training. Also make sure you have the right collar for the size dog.


Actually that is one of the common misconceptions about the e-collar. Field trial dogs (where collar training is the norm) have become softer, not harder.
Unfortunately I'm old enough to remember what the dogs were like before e-collars. The reality is that we are now e-collar training dogs to a very high level that would have never been able to withstand pre e-collar training methods.

What most fail to understand, the goal IS NOT to see how often you can push the button when collar training. The goal is to not have to ever push the button. Most days I don't even bother to turn it on before putting it on the dog. The only reason for putting it on is to prevent the dog from becoming collar wise.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

There are absolutely dogs that need an e collar 

however, I have come to the conclusion that they should only be able to be purchased from a reputable licensed trainer of sorts.... I have seen to many people who have ordered the damned things from places like cabelas or wherever and don't know how to use them and create major problems. They not only damage their bond with their dog but they create major training issues. 

I personally don't think that you should be able to just order one of them without some kind of training. 

I don't think that people who use them deliberately harm their dogs (although lets be honest these things work on pain, thats why they work fast) but they do so due to lack of knowledge .... I watched a woman whose golden puppy was running the bank.... (ie. a field dog will run along the bank of a river so they can swim straight across instead of at an angle to get the duck) and when she would start to run the bank and not go across where she wanted her to she woiuld zap the dog.... the dog never learned to go across at an angle.... BUT the dog sure learned to be afraid of water..... 

I have a friend with a lovely dog who is tentative and afraid when doing the blind retrieves..... and who can blame him..... 

it depends on the dog, and requires the person know what they are doing..... 

I have never put an ecollar on one of my dogs for training purposes.... 

yes its fast.... BUT there are other ways to teach your dog.... 
and my bond with my dog is way more important than whether we get to the upper levels of field trials..... there are other ways to teach your dog.... I have never put an ecollar on my dogs, I have never used a forced fetch and I just won't do it.... 

There are other ways, they take longer and you can't be lazy.... but there are other ways


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

> I watched a woman whose golden puppy was running the bank.... (ie. a field dog will run along the bank of a river so they can swim straight across instead of at an angle to get the duck) and when she would start to run the bank and not go across where she wanted her to she woiuld zap the dog.... the dog never learned to go across at an angle.... BUT the dog sure learned to be afraid of water.....


Shore breaking is the one part of a training program (e-collar or not) that I absolutely detest. To the point that I won't do it with gun dogs or hunt test dogs. Hunt test dogs only get marked down for running the bank, they will still pass the test provided they do the rest properly. It is only with the hard core field trial dogs that shore breaking becomes a necessity. That is because out of that field of 100 dogs, only one gets to take home a blue ribbon and 5 championship points.

The Lardys' and Farmers' of the training world say shore break fast and get it over with, otherwise you will do more harm than good. 
Ever watch dogs that have been trained on a river instead of a pond? They know that if they don't run the bank and enter the current at a proper place it will be impossible to exit the water where they should. Dogs from Idaho where training in a river is common are notorious for that.


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## 5dogsandahuman (Dec 1, 2007)

Not sure I should really get into this discussion, but I will try to be quick and to the point.

I believe that e-collars have their place in very limited instances and uses, such as with the field dog trials that are being discussed. I use to be a big proponent of them and used them on two of my dogs. They were both very expensive tritronics collars, and I was taught to use them by a trainer that trained both of my dogs on them. I also spent A LOT of money to get the dogs trained and to get these tools.

However, despite all of this, I still believe today that I was not trained properly with the e-collars, and I should never have been told to use them for the purpose I was using them for . . .nor should they have been recommended to me, ever. My dogs knew they were getting shocked, and they knew why they were getting shocked . . .they just never correlated that the shock was a correction from me. There in lies the problem. 

People are given the collars as a quick fix . . .and I will say that it was a quick fix in my case, that lasted a total of a year. After that time, my dogs escalated to a level that could no longer be corrected with the collars . . .and became very aggressive with each other. I have since switched to a training method that has given me solid results, and better results than I ever had with the e-collars . . .and with less equipment. It was more work, it did take more time, but the dogs understand that I am the one correcting them, and therefore they listen and respect me because of it. Before, they would get a correction, and then turn around and exhibit the same behavior again in front of me because they did not understand the source of the correction. Now, the dogs listen and obey me without any equipment on them whatsoever. 

I must say that I agree with those people here who say that the collars should not be sold at pet stores . . .and in fact, I believe that the collars should only be available through trainers as a part of a training package for both the dog and the owner . . .and not for basic obedience or behavior problems but for field trials and the like. I honestly don't ever see myself using them ever again, but I'm also not very interested in competing in field trials.


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