# E Collar training



## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Has anyone ever had success using an e collar to train a dog to modify or correct leash aggression ...dog reactivity..fear/aggression. I've already tried the CC and DS and little if any changes have occurred.

Thanks !


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Absolutely not. What will happen is your dog will associate other dogs with the shock, which will make him hate the other dogs even more. You might get a period of calm as he suppresses his reaction to avoid the shock, but he will explode eventually.

If you haven't had luck with counter conditioning, you aren't doing it right. Find a positive trainer and let them show you how to do it properly.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Have you actually trained a reactive dog with an e collar or just reciting something you have heard...??? 

Respectfully,

Headisg


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Amaryllis;3919258
If you haven't had luck with counter conditioning said:


> Been there done it....twice....


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I trained a 90 lb highly DA dog with counter conditioning and it worked beautifully. He had previously been trained with at least a choke chain, and that didn't work out at all.

ETA: I'm 110 lbs and have a disease that causes extremely weak joints.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Amaryllis said:


> I trained a 90 lb highly DA dog with counter conditioning and it worked beautifully. He had previously been trained with at least a choke chain, and that didn't work out at all.
> 
> ETA: I'm 110 lbs and have a disease that causes extremely weak joints.



Yes, I know it has been done but I am curious if you ever trained with an e collar and witnessed the fall out you previously described.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Come to DC, witness the GSDs that got dropped from military training for not handling the training. It'll be educational. I had to CC my own dog to GSDs because of the incidents we've had.

Look, you wanna shock your fearful dog into shutting up and not bothering you anymore, you do you. I'm not going to tell you it's okay. There is another way. It works. Most people don't do it properly, move too fast, don't reward enough and then say the training doesn't work. It does, it just takes time and way more treats than you'd think.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

I have not used an e-collar for leash reactivity, but I have tried other aversives, like choke chains and prong collars. In my experience, they are not very effective. The only people who need e-collars (and some would argue that no one needs them, but...eh) is if you need to give the dog feedback from a distance or you need to change a behavior in order to save the dog's life. Leash reactivity, as far as I know, never falls under this category. In the rare cases when e-collars are necessary, they should only be used with the help of someone who has experience using them. You can really ruin a dog with an e-collar, especially if you don't have a lot of experience getting the timing exactly right.

If you are really dead set on getting a tool that will help you control the dog, a head halter might work better. It's relatively idiot-proof (I've used it successfully) and will keep the dog from pulling your arms out of the sockets. It's also less likely to harm the dog, though it is still uncomfortable and (I imagine) somewhat painful if the dog goes nuts with it on.

I made really slow progress with leash reactivity until I realized that I was trying to train behaviors when the dog was past threshold. Once I figured out when I could work with the dog and when we just had to remove ourselves from the situation, things progressed rapidly (and it turned out to be easier and more effective than the leash corrections). Maybe there's something you can change with the counterconditioning procedures that might them more effective? What exactly are you trying that isn't working?

Edit: I should add, a lot depends on the dog, too. I've known some people who used an e-collar for a specific behavior and it worked, but there are others who had severe aggression issues as a result of the e-collar.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Treating reactivity and fear with aversives is unlikely to work. If you want to know why, read about Little Albert. He was a perfectly normal baby who was conditioned to fear furry white things using aversive methods. Read about Martin Seligman and learned helplessness. Also, Fallout from the Use of Aversives and PUNISHMENT.

I just posted these resources for someone else:
Shell compiled a list of good reactivity resources: Links, books, blogs etc for reactive / leash aggressive dogs and similar.

I think CARE for Reactive Dogs is included, but if not it's a really good resource, too.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Headisg said:


> Yes, I know it has been done but I am curious if you ever trained with an e collar and witnessed the fall out you previously described.


I have watched it happen with a trainer and a dog that showed normal for his breed dog aggression. The "trainer" used the ecollar and shocked him into a nearly catatonc state which certainly did shut down his dog aggression, he acted like a model citizen around other dogs.... until he hit his tipping point and went after another dog (his new owner had believed him "cured" ) and bit a human in the process. He was put down.

Another dog that was trained by this same person to "fix" dog reactivity with an ecollar became a mental mess and lost a lot of weight and then panicked and ran and got hit by a car.

You just do NOT try to treat a fear reaction with any kind of positive punishment whether ecollar or choke or prong etc. It is FEAR and pain doesn't fix fear. It would be like spanking a child who is scared of the dark. It doesn't make them less scared of the dark, it just makes them scared of both the dark and of getting spanked for showing that fear. 

Counter conditioning take a time, there is a lot of instinct and reaction to work past. But it does work, I have worked with several dog aggressive and dog reactive foster dogs and after a few months, they made huge strides and were more confident, more calm and safer to walk and i used positive reinforcement.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Lux...

Thanks for the response....responses such as yours versus others ( Amaryliss ) are much more beneficial and serve the greater good of this forum...

First, I would not use an e collar without the instruction of a trained professional in this particular arena of correction.

Yes, once a dog is over threshold when correcting for leash reactivity, you have essentially taken 2 steps backwards. So, I have been more than cautious to always keep the dog under threshold, observing the dog's body english and other visual cues. I have so slowly reduced the distances over a year now and crammed more pieces of beef in my dog's face for keeping her calm when we are training. We go to Petsmart parking lots and stay at a distance which she is comfortable with and do the drill...."Look" dog looks at other dog walking through the parking lot, dog gets treated, praised as it turns it's focus on me and my eyes. I conduct this training every time I go for a walk and actively look for other dogs on leash and practice at distances just far enough away so the dog is aware of the other dog's presence but is still below threshold. My dog's focus on me is first rate in most every situation except when another dog is within visual range. If the situation arises when the proximity could be too close and I believe the dog will go over threshold, I remove ourselves from the situation. I somewhat sense that in order to cure this problem I need to find a method which will momentarily get the dog's focus back on me as she nears threshold. The other poster suggesting that I would zap my dog in order to teach the dog not to react to other dogs is misinformed. I simply see the use of this tool as a way to break the dog's focus on the other dog just for a millisecond so I can regain the dog's focus.

I am on the fence about the use of an e collar, so I am more in the process of doing my due diligence before proceeding.

Thank you for your response,


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

No problem. I know e-collars can be a touchy subject (and with good reason). If that's all you need, I would recommend the head halter even more. You won't believe how much control it gives you. And you can use it to literally turn the dog's head away from the stimulus. It's exactly what you are looking for. And it's cheaper.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

I shall investigate this option...as the e collar is my last option of choice.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

The problem with finding a trained professional to fix reactivity with an ecollar is that a trained professional who really understands dog learning and behavior isn't going to use an ecollar on reactivity. So what you end up with is generally going to be a "yank and crank" type trainer and way too great of chance of making your problem worse. 

Once the dog's focus is so strong that you cannot catch his attention, he's already mentally fixated on the other dog so a pain based correction is all too likcly to be associated in his mind with that other dog because that is what is filling his mind. There is also the potential for redirection and negative associations with other animals or people if he is shocked at the wrong split second as his attention shifts from one thing to another.

Parr of it is timing in your part is catching him before he gets that fix on another dog and making whatever treat you are using so incredibly awesome that you can keep his attention, I used cooked steak at one point which is pretty darn high value to most dogs but hey, the dog went from "can barely be in public" to earning her Canine Good Citizen certificate. If he is toy driven, a tug toy can be another training tool.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

To be totally blunt, if you're a trainer who needs electric shocks to deal with leash reactivity, you have are almost certainly an insufficiently skilled (or patient) trainer to safely use electric shocks. 

There are literally countless other ways of getting a dog's attention when you have them right next to you on a leash.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Appreciate your bluntness....

How would you get a dog's attention once it is over threshold....I'm eagerly awaiting your response.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Shell said:


> The problem with finding a trained professional to fix reactivity with an ecollar is that a trained professional who really understands dog learning and behavior isn't going to use an ecollar on reactivity. So what you end up with is generally going to be a "yank and crank" type trainer and way too great of chance of making your problem worse.
> 
> Once the dog's focus is so strong that you cannot catch his attention, he's already mentally fixated on the other dog so a pain based correction is all too likcly to be associated in his mind with that other dog because that is what is filling his mind. There is also the potential for redirection and negative associations with other animals or people if he is shocked at the wrong split second as his attention shifts from one thing to another.
> 
> Parr of it is timing in your part is catching him before he gets that fix on another dog and making whatever treat you are using so incredibly awesome that you can keep his attention, I used cooked steak at one point which is pretty darn high value to most dogs but hey, the dog went from "can barely be in public" to earning her Canine Good Citizen certificate. If he is toy driven, a tug toy can be another training tool.


Shell, 

Thanks ! My dog has a fixation on the frisbee we play with every day....3-4 times. I have her trained to stay frozen while I hold the frisbee over her head. Once I release her, she launches on it and the reward is a game of tug. I bring the frisbee on walks as well and train with it as a distraction but the sight of another dog compromises her focus on the frisbee. Her number one highest value treat as far as focus goes, well, it's another dog. LOL.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Headisg said:


> Appreciate your bluntness....
> 
> How would you get a dog's attention once it is over threshold....I'm eagerly awaiting your response.


Read Shell's last paragraph. The key is not allowing your dog to go over threshold. Once he's over, training can't happen and you stop the session. Either do damage control and try again with the next dog you encounter or call it a day and go home.



Shell said:


> The problem with finding a trained professional to fix reactivity with an ecollar is that a trained professional who really understands dog learning and behavior isn't going to use an ecollar on reactivity. So what you end up with is generally going to be a "yank and crank" type trainer and way too great of chance of making your problem worse.
> 
> Once the dog's focus is so strong that you cannot catch his attention, he's already mentally fixated on the other dog so a pain based correction is all too likcly to be associated in his mind with that other dog because that is what is filling his mind. There is also the potential for redirection and negative associations with other animals or people if he is shocked at the wrong split second as his attention shifts from one thing to another.
> 
> *Parr of it is timing in your part is catching him before he gets that fix on another dog* and making whatever treat you are using so incredibly awesome that you can keep his attention, I used cooked steak at one point which is pretty darn high value to most dogs but hey, the dog went from "can barely be in public" to earning her Canine Good Citizen certificate. If he is toy driven, a tug toy can be another training tool.


Also be aware of trigger stacking - it's the "straw that broke the camel's back" type thing. You may encounter one dog and be fine, then another and still be fine, but by the third dog, your dog may start to become stressed. At the fourth dog, he barks. At the fifth, he explodes. Here's a nice explanation and another.

Desensitization / counter-conditioning sessions should be relative short and spaced out. 

There's a quote by a well-known veterinary behaviorist, 


> To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:
> 
> A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
> A thorough understanding of learning theory.
> ...


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Shell said:


> The problem with finding a trained professional to fix reactivity with an ecollar is that a trained professional who really understands dog learning and behavior isn't going to use an ecollar on reactivity. So what you end up with is generally going to be a "yank and crank" type trainer and way too great of chance of making your problem worse.


Someone who has had some success with that kind of tool can probably employ it more effectively than someone with no experience. From what I've read and what I've seen people use shocks for...you're less likely to damage a dog if you have the timing down. And someone who does this full time hopefully has their timing down. 

I used a trainer that suggested positive reinforcement for the problem and then at the end of everything put the e-collar on the table as an option. I didn't exercise that option and continued using the methods he'd initially recommended. I don't think using the e-collar in that situation would necessarily have turned out badly, but I didn't think it was a good idea and the trainer was okay with that. He put it out there like, "well, if you can't do it that other way I told you, then this would be the only other thing to try." But this was with a very confident, pain-resistant dog who was not fearful.

I guess what I'm saying is...just because someone is willing to keep aversives in their toolkit doesn't mean they are completely incompetent. I'm sure in an ideal situation where you could hire the best behaviorists, you would never have need of one. But in the real world there's such a thing as the lesser of two evils. If someone is dead-set on using an e-collar, better that they get the timing right than just take the thing out of the box and crank it up.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Good point on the trigger stacking. One thing to keep in mind is that dogs clear stress/excitement hormones much more slowly than humans do. So trigger stacking can actually occur over the course of several walks or even a couple days. Say you walk him in the morning and there's a surprise dog nearby and he gets over threshold. You go home, go to work and decide to try again in the evening. The problem is, there's a decent chance that he hasn't shaken off the morning's mental flooding and so where he might normally be fine at 50 feet from anther dog, he is now likely to react at say, 100 feet away. You can either account for a lower expected threshold and adjust your timing or you can look for an alternative activity to give his body more time to calm down from the morning's encounter.

I used to take one DA dog to the fairground in the off season and run the paved roads that loop it, zero dogs there. Or to a business park after hours. Or downtown during the workday when there are few people likely to be walking dogs. Etc. Then we'd go back to walking in the regular parks and neighborhoods and build on her training, if she got rushed by a loose dog or had a bad day, back to the dog free zones.

Once the dog is over threshold, you basically can try to ask the other dog owner to give you more space or you leave/ create sufficient distance. Breaking the line of sight is helpful by doing thins like walking behind a parked car or around the corner of a building.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I use an e-collar in a few ways, sometimes, which I know people disagree with. I use it for snake aversion training (Ie: to creating a lasting NEGATIVE association and make the dogs afraid of a specific thing), and I use it to page my deaf dog. I'm not above leash corrections, I keep a prong on Thud as a backup collar. All of those things, I would hope, put me in the camp of someone you'd be willing to listen to and to believe I am not just condemning the tool or that I believe only treats and positive training has value.

That said, reactivity is not the place for any sort of punishment. The reason is simple: The dog already views the presence of other dogs as a negative thing. Adding another negative on top of it accomplishes nothing. Your goal with reactivity is not to shut down the dog's negative response, but to change the way the dog sees the stimulus. And to teach the dog how to cope/what you want from them, without them falling apart. Adding another stressor to the situation is a really horrible idea.

My 9 month old border collie is reactive - started when she was 6 months old. Lots and lots of slowly decreasing distance and lots and lots of treats and we can now participate in our group classes. Most dogs aren't going to get it that fast, but almost all dogs WILL eventually get it. Won't make 'em dog friendly, but will teach them how to be comfortable and behave. And that's the goal.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Luxorien said:


> Someone who has had some success with that kind of tool can probably employ it more effectively than someone with no experience. From what I've read and what I've seen people use shocks for...you're less likely to damage a dog if you have the timing down. And someone who does this full time hopefully has their timing down.
> 
> I used a trainer that suggested positive reinforcement for the problem and then at the end of everything put the e-collar on the table as an option. I didn't exercise that option and continued using the methods he'd initially recommended. I don't think using the e-collar in that situation would necessarily have turned out badly, but I didn't think it was a good idea and the trainer was okay with that. He put it out there like, "well, if you can't do it that other way I told you, then this would be the only other thing to try." But this was with a very confident, pain-resistant dog who was not fearful.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is...just because someone is willing to keep aversives in their toolkit doesn't mean they are completely incompetent. I'm sure in an ideal situation where you could hire the best behaviorists, you would never have need of one. But in the real world there's such a thing as the lesser of two evils. If someone is dead-set on using an e-collar, better that they get the timing right than just take the thing out of the box and crank it up.


The thing about aversives though is that when used on the wrong dog, or for the wrong situation, or with the wrong timing or all three, they aren't necessarily the lessor of two evils because instead of simply being ineffective, they can make things so much worse.

Even if the trainer has impeccable timing with the ecollar, it is the owner who will actually be training with it day to day in the "real world" 

I'm not even a purely positive reinforcment trainer, I do use some limited aversives but not for a fear reaction, not for aggression, not for reactivity in general. Because the mental state of the dog in those situations isnt a good match for positive punishment even on a low level. 

One thing to consider is what happens when the dog doesn't break focus with a low stim? Raise the stim to break the focus and you raise the pain level and add to the fear and/or aggression. In general, pain and discomfort increase aggreasion, think about how cranky most people are when they are sick for example or how an injured animal tends to lash out with a snap or bite even if they are normally placid.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

cookieface said:


> Read Shell's last paragraph. The key is not allowing your dog to go over threshold. Once he's over, training can't happen and you stop the session. Either do damage control and try again with the next dog you encounter or call it a day and go home.
> 
> Thank you....my question Parus ( master dog trainer ) was how to get a dog's attention once it is over threshold....I have yet to hear a response...as most likely there is none and Parus was being obtuse.
> 
> ...


Also...is there any benefit in flooding a dog with this type of reactivity ?


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

I greatly appreciate all the responses and constructive comments excpet a few blowhards with nothing positive to add.

I did not post my original question to enter into emotional discourse, I simply posted to try and discover from others experiences, both successes and failures. 

Thank you


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Cpt,

Thanks for sharing your experience....and observations.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Headisg said:


> Also...is there any benefit in flooding a dog with this type of reactivity ?


IMO, no. Not at all. The dog either fears and/or dislikes other dog. If he is fearful, then it is kind of like taking someone scared of snakes and tossng them into that railway car in the Indiana Jones movie which was full of snakes. They don't get more comfortable with snakes, they tend to get even more fearful because hey, their worst nightmere just came true! Gosh darn, they were right to be afraid!

If he is more just towards the "I hate other dogs" side of things, he isn't going to enjoy having them around more by being forced to deal with them in larger numbers or closer distances. You have to change the mindset first, that other dogs are something that can be ignored and dealt with. Not something he has to like per se, just something that can be endured camly. 

To get attention when over threshold, you often have to reduce the outside stimulus low enough to lower the dog back below threshold and then start over with his attention

Read the links in the sticky on reactivty. All the links, get the books from the library or download the ebooks on a kindle etc. Read the science behind the behavior.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Shell said:


> The thing about aversives though is that when used on the wrong dog, or for the wrong situation, or with the wrong timing or all three, they aren't necessarily the lessor of two evils because instead of simply being ineffective, they can make things so much worse.


I don't disagree. I'm just saying decent timing and experience with stim levels is preferable to the way people usually use them. And if someone looks for a trainer experienced with e-collars, that trainer might say, "Look, I don't think this is the tool for the job." You can't stop someone from using an e-collar over the internet. But it sounds like Headisg is willing to listen to alternatives anyway, so I'm not sure this is relevant.



> Also...is there any benefit in flooding a dog with this type of reactivity ?


No. There are certainly people who still try this, but to my knowledge research on animal behavior hasn't demonstrated high efficacy for this.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

You know, the crazy thing about my dog is, when I have a friend over who brings 1-3 dogs with, my gal is pretty much fine with them in the backyard. She used to mix it up with my friend's intact bitch but I stopped that in short order and took her out of the mix and had her on an extended down/stay beside me until she figured it out. I would then allow her to reengage and I would monitor. I somewhat believe her attitude towards the other bitch was due to mine being intact as well and it was "her" backyard but she soon learned I owned the property. It seems my reactive dog is not reactive in a couple of scenarios: 1.) around dogs she has grown accustomed to and they are a known element and 2.) when she is off leash, which strongly suggests the flight or fright axiom has merit to it. I would like to think I can beat this leash reactivity and to date have been very proactive about it as well as employing the knowledge of professional trainers but it just seems to be like we have hit a plateau.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Headisg said:


> Also...is there any benefit in flooding a dog with this type of reactivity ?


As Shell and Luxorien said, not really. It has roughly the same risks as other types of aversive training.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Headisg said:


> You know, the crazy thing about my dog is, when I have a friend over who brings 1-3 dogs with, my gal is pretty much fine with them in the backyard. She used to mix it up with my friend's intact bitch but I stopped that in short order and took her out of the mix and had her on an extended down/stay beside me until she figured it out. I would then allow her to reengage and I would monitor. I somewhat believe her attitude towards the other bitch was due to mine being intact as well and it was "her" backyard but she soon learned I owned the property. It seems my reactive dog is not reactive in a couple of scenarios: *1.) around dogs she has grown accustomed to and they are a known element and 2.) when she is off leash, *which strongly suggests the flight or fright axiom has merit to it. I would like to think I can beat this leash reactivity and to date have been very proactive about it as well as employing the knowledge of professional trainers but it just seems to be like we have hit a plateau.


I don't think those scenarios are uncommon. Many reactive dogs are fine with dogs they know and/or when off leash. My reactive dog can be fine in classes with 5-7 other dogs or at the park or pet store, but still go nuts when we pass another dog on a walk.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

cookieface said:


> I don't think those scenarios are uncommon. Many reactive dogs are fine with dogs they know and/or when off leash. My reactive dog can be fine in classes with 5-7 other dogs or at the park or pet store, but still go nuts when we pass another dog on a walk.


Are you still working on this situation and if so...how ?

Thanks


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

At BEST, it would decrease the outward expression of the behavior. That being said, even if that happened with NO visible "side effects", it is NOT going to change the way the dog FEELS about the stimulus. 

If the sight of a spider makes you nervous- someone takes you, ties you to a chair, and puts a spider on your lap. When you yell in fright, the person slaps you in the face. They tell you that if you stop screaming, they will stop slapping you.

What eventually happens is that you stop screaming. But do you stop being nervous around spiders? No. To an outsider, you have been fixed. You no longer express the undesirable behavior (screaming). But that isn't the same thing as not being scared.

And this scenario has the benefit of two humans who speak the same language. Your dog doesn't have that.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Headisg said:


> Are you still working on this situation and if so...how ?
> 
> Thanks


Yes (with the caveat that it's been too dark and/or cold for proper walks for the past few months). Katie is a frustrated greeter - she wants to interact with other dogs in a friendly manner, but is hampered by the leash so she barks. I've been working on heavily reinforcing attention on me when passing other dogs (whether they're walking also or behind fences). If I had a willing friend with a stable, confident dog, I'd do some Premack / penalty yard type training with her.

We just finished two 3-week classes: LLW with distractions and recall with distractions. Both were great at allowing us to practice attention skills in a safe environment under the supervision of two experienced trainers with a variety of distractions.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Rescued said:


> At BEST, it would decrease the outward expression of the behavior. That being said, even if that happened with NO visible "side effects", it is NOT going to change the way the dog FEELS about the stimulus.
> 
> If the sight of a spider makes you nervous- someone takes you, ties you to a chair, and puts a spider on your lap. When you yell in fright, the person slaps you in the face. They tell you that if you stop screaming, they will stop slapping you.
> 
> ...



I have to somewhat disagree with the premises or analogies you have drawn. One being that phobias/fears are insurmountable, especially in humans. I am fortunate enough to know of a few that have conquered their deepest dreads, one's nightmare of flying/airplanes/heights has seen the day where they are now a licensed pilot. I also would challenge your comparison of humans and dogs when it comes to a similar reaction to a somewhat similar behavior problem. Predicating the dog's reaction based on the human reaction, to me seems a bit of folly. Using this exact situation is a prime example : Humans may at times exhibit aggression towards the trigger of their fear but it is the exception with the rule being a withdrawal of their physical presence to alleviate their mind of the phobia/fear. My pursuit of helping my dog to conqueror this fear has led me to investigate the fact that dogs assimilate and react to stimuli much differently than humans hence I need to educate myself on their unique mental processes and the ensuing manifestation of this mindset in a physical way. Personally, I believe all too many dog behavioral issues and lack of obedience are the result of the human imposing human rationale on a dog. ( Anthropomorphism )

Respectfully,

Headisg


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Rescued isn't saying that fears or phobias are insurmountable or cannot be reduced, just that punishment/pain isn't a fix. If a person is afraid to fly, you don't put them on a plane and smack them everytime they start to shake or panic. You start slowly, you create positive experiences, you desensitize with short flights before long flights, with larger jets before smaller prop planes etc. In humans, you might add in learning more about the mechanics and safety records etc since sometimes understanding the inner workings of something allows a person a level of control over what they fear. For dogs, they wouldn't be reading up in other dogs of course  

You mention that humans tend to withdrawal from their fears rather than act aggressively and that somehow makes it different than with dogs. I think that makes it actually very similar to dogs and part of why leash reactivity is what it is. The dog cannot withdrawal, he is trapped by the leash and being forced to interact in a manner that doesn't allow him full body language ability or natural movement and so, some will act aggressively in order to get rid of the thing that upsets them. If they cannot withdrawal, they wikl try to get the other dog to withdrawal.

Dogs aren't humans and i don't think that by using human examples to illustrate concepts, given the difficulty of conveying some ideas in text, anyone is saying dogs think or react just like humans. But there is a huge amount of similarities in learning between not just dogs and humans but many mammals. Clicker training for example works for elephants and dolphins and dogs, all very different animals but the base concepts remain the same.

I can't think of any domestic animal really where punishment would make them more comfortable with a situation that they feared or were already stressed by.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Headisg said:


> I greatly appreciate all the responses and constructive comments excpet a few blowhards with nothing positive to add.
> 
> I did not post my original question to enter into emotional discourse, I simply posted to try and discover from others experiences, both successes and failures.
> 
> Thank you


Insults are not tolerated here. No one has insulted you here, in fact everyone has been quite respectful, please give them the same respect. You don't have to like what they say, but further insults will not be tolerated.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

I have given everyone the same respect I received. Insulting one's skill or love of dog are insults all the same. Those which chose to add nothing positive to the questions I asked are insulting. This is a forum which is supposed to help those in search of solutions not a forum where some can air their petty useless sweeping generalizations which have absolutely no merit to them whatsoever much less any benefit in the pursuit of dog training. People who offer untested opinions with never having the actual experience of what they are professing is mostly worth the price of "free advice" and I take it as such. However, those which have engaged me with their experiences and observations is the name of the game. MOST everyone has been very respectful and helpful but a couple have been disrespectful in a few ways, first and foremost by speaking in platitudes which offered absolutely no benefit whatsoever, they simply sounded off their petty knee jerk thoughts.

I am not so simple that I feel I have to "like what they say". Personally, "talking to mirrors" is a waste of time and nothing is gained therefore I appreciate a countering opinion but a countering opinion with substance not some trivial mantra type attitude they subscribe to. Dog training and behavioral issues are serious business to me, so please do not minimize me to the same level as those who have nothing to offer except some scripted line of angst which they carry throughout their life.

I am at a crossroads and my gut says "no" when it comes to an e-collar for this situation but yet I take it as part of my stewardship and love of dog that I investigate all potential remedies to lead my dog to a life which is most enjoyed by all. I certainly hope you have the ability to understand this.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Headisg said:


> I have given everyone the same respect I received. Insulting one's skill or love of dog are insults all the same. Those which chose to add nothing positive to the questions I asked are insulting. This is a forum which is supposed to help those in search of solutions not a forum where some can air their petty useless sweeping generalizations which have absolutely no merit to them whatsoever much less any benefit in the pursuit of dog training. People who offer untested opinions with never having the actual experience of what they are professing is mostly worth the price of "free advice" and I take it as such. However, those which have engaged me with their experiences and observations is the name of the game. MOST everyone has been very respectful and helpful but a couple have been disrespectful in a few ways, first and foremost by speaking in platitudes which offered absolutely no benefit whatsoever, they simply sounded off their petty knee jerk thoughts.
> 
> I am not so simple that I feel I have to "like what they say". Personally, "talking to mirrors" is a waste of time and nothing is gained therefore I appreciate a countering opinion but a countering opinion with substance not some trivial mantra type attitude they subscribe to. Dog training and behavioral issues are serious business to me, so please do not minimize me to the same level as those who have nothing to offer except some scripted line of angst which they carry throughout their life.
> 
> I am at a crossroads and my gut says "no" when it comes to an e-collar for this situation but yet I take it as part of my stewardship and love of dog that I investigate all potential remedies to lead my dog to a life which is most enjoyed by all. I certainly hope you have the ability to understand this.


No one has insulted you, you on the other hand have directly insulted them, which is expressly against forum rules. This will be your final warning. I'll also remind you that arguing with forum mods is also against the rules. Continue at your own risk.


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## Headisg (Feb 19, 2015)

Shell;3920314 If a person is afraid to fly said:


> Actually the individual I am speaking of did not proceed in the fashion you describe whatsoever. The person needed to be on prescribed medications to even travel on the largest of airliners, A380's and B747-400s..The individual chose to immerse themselves into their fear i.e. flooding and it worked wonderfully. However, some fears are based on not being in control, I somewhat sense this might have been an underlying theme hence a smaller a/c may have allayed the lack of control fear but the fear of heights still existed but could have been mitigated since the fear of having no control was lessened. Solving behavioral issues in humans and dogs is all too often taken with a "cookie cutter " approach. Kind of like what you prescribed, granted your solution most likely would have some efficacy, given the proper base reasons for the particular fear existing.
> 
> I appreciate your response and of course I understand the dynamics of a fearful dog....My quest is to find someone who can, from actual experience inform me of the success or failure of using an e-collar to change this particular behavior. I agree that one could easily run the risk of ruining the dog even more but this was not my question, once again. Chances are I will not find that in here, just stories about someone they knew or something they read. I have already heard the same stories and read some of the same articles. Dog training is diverse and it seems there are many methods used at times. I am more of the positive reinforcement mentality than using negative reinforcement methods but certainly subscribe to operant conditioning in many cases. And being of this mindset creates my dilemma and questions.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Headisg said:


> My quest is to find someone who can, from actual experience inform me of the success or failure of using an e-collar to change this particular behavior. I agree that one could easily run the risk of ruining the dog even more but this was not my question, once again. Chances are I will not find that in here, just stories about someone they knew or something they read.


Whether the person did the training themselves or just knew someone who did it, it's still anecdotal evidence. Not sure why you would preference one over the other. It would be more logical to look at the actual research that's been done on laboratory animals. I could tell you that, in my personal experience, smoking is perfectly safe. I've smoked and I don't have lung cancer! Would you really think that advice was worth anything when compared to the mountain of medical research indicating the causal relationship between smoking and cancer?

Use the head halter. Keep doing what you're doing. An electronic collar offers no benefit and significantly increases the risks of failure.

Edit: the reason why it's so hard to find someone who has done this is because very few knowledgeable people would do this.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

The person CHOSE to immerse themselves in their fear. Dogs or other domestic animals like cats or horses do not have that choice, we make the choice for them and as such, erroring on the side of caution is generally a good idea.

I would have thought that my direct, in-person observation of extreme negative fallout from ecollar use for aggression and reactivity would have counted as "actual experience" but no, I wasn't the one with my hand on the remote. I chose a different path and the dogs with aggression that I trained are living happily with families and even other dogs and having basically normal dog lives. Whereas several of the dogs I have watched be trained with ecollars for aggression are now dead.

I am not even totally against ecollars, I just think they have some very very specific uses and leash reactivity, fear and aggression in general don't fit into those specific uses. Like cptjack, I would consider an ecollar for something like snake avoidance since the goal is the make the dog never ever want to approach a possibly deadly snake. With leash reaction, the goal is something of the opposite, you want the dog to become more comfortable around other dogs, not less.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Headisg said:


> Shell,
> 
> Thanks ! My dog has a fixation on the frisbee we play with every day....3-4 times. I have her trained to stay frozen while I hold the frisbee over her head. Once I release her, she launches on it and the reward is a game of tug. I bring the frisbee on walks as well and train with it as a distraction but the sight of another dog compromises her focus on the frisbee. Her number one highest value treat as far as focus goes, well, it's another dog. LOL.


I think part of the solution is not allowing the dog to fixate, unhampered, on anything. Encouraging her to do so, and then rewarding her with the actual item, only adds fuel to the fire in the long run. Having your dog work for a Frisbee is fine but she should be taught a corresponding off-switch and how to relinquish the fixation on cue / voluntarily. Zen exercises would be a good starting point, perhaps along with some Premack. Skills learned here should transfer easily to other fixations such as passing dogs.

Seems like I missed all of the fireworks. lol


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