# Service Dogs Information and the ADA?



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I am wanting to learn about service dogs and registering them. 

I have trained Abbylynn to alert bark if I have a copd attack and cannot breathe.

She also will help to "balance" me with her harness on days where my oxygen levels are low and my balance is off. 

She will also assist to help "pull" me up a hill when I need a boost. (Poor girl ... luxating patella and all ) Talk about loyalty..........

She also stops for traffic and waits until I say "go". She will "wait" until I am ready to walk again if I am having difficulties .... and am breathing (as normally as possible) She allows me to use her body to pull myself up from a sitting position if need be. 

We are working on picking up objects ... because when I bend over my breathing is further restricted. My copd is severe. As much as I actually can do ... my doctors are amazed. I only have 25% lung function.

Abbylynn is also dog and human friendly.

Would Abbylynn qualify under the ADA? Could she be legally registered?

I did send for a clip on "copd alert" tag for her to wear when we are out on walks in case I should ever go down. Heaven forbid! 

All info or links available would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There isn't any registration for Service Dogs. You need to have a recognized disability. They need to be trained to do at least 3 things to mitigate your disability. They need to be well-trained enough to behave in public. 

Here are the ADA links: 
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

And this seems to explain everything pretty well: 
http://www.petpartners.org/Service_Animal_Basics


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Willowy said:


> There isn't any registration for Service Dogs. You need to have a recognized disability. They need to be trained to do at least 3 things to mitigate your disability. They need to be well-trained enough to behave in public.
> 
> Here are the ADA links:
> http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm
> ...


Thank you Willowy!  Fantastic links!


----------



## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

Oh Abbylynn, isn't it wonderful to have such a loving pet! Also, isn't it amazing how careful, caring and helpful an animal can be?


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

reynosa_k9's said:


> Oh Abbylynn, isn't it wonderful to have such a loving pet! Also, isn't it amazing how careful, caring and helpful an animal can be?


It sure is!  The first time I put Abbylynn's harness on she acted as if she knew what it was for ........ Bless her big soft heart!

What is really cool is within the last couple weeks we have encountered a Pit and a GSD on our walk. Both the other dogs were barking and carrying on .... pulling their person. I asked Abbylynn to "Wait" and she stood still and had her body leaning into mine ... huffing under her breath ... but listened to me 100%. We just stood there until the other dogs and their people passed us by.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Barking as an alert could get you dismissed from businesses, just so you are aware. It qualifies as causing a disturbance.

Does Abbylynn have a luxating patella? If she does, she is not a good animal to use for any sort of mobility or counterbalance work. Sound joints are necessary for such work.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Barking as an alert could get you dismissed from businesses, just so you are aware. It qualifies as causing a disturbance.
> 
> Does Abbylynn have a luxating patella? If she does, she is not a good animal to use for any sort of mobility or counterbalance work. Sound joints are necessary for such work.


Question? .... What should the dog perform as the alert?

Answer .... I have given that some thought as well about the luxating patella. I have also discussed it with my Dad since this is his home. 

I have been thinking of obtaining another dog for this. In your opinion ... what should I be looking for in a service animal? I would love to rescue a dog and train it myself while I am still capable.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm kinda thinking that if you can't breathe, you sort of WANT your dog to be disruptive, right?  If she only barks when you actually need medical attention, that seems OK to me. 

I don't know how you might go about picking a good rescue dog for SD training. Maybe if you work with a rescue that will let you take the dog in for a vet workup and let you spend a lot of time with the dog before you make any permanent decisions.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'm kinda thinking that if you can't breathe, you sort of WANT your dog to be disruptive, right?  If she only barks when you actually need medical attention, that seems OK to me.
> 
> I don't know how you might go about picking a good rescue dog for SD training. Maybe if you work with a rescue that will let you take the dog in for a vet workup and let you spend a lot of time with the dog before you make any permanent decisions.


This is a good thought about a rescue organization. And yes .... she is only to bark if I cannot breathe .... when you don't breathe you usually loose consciousness. I think I can use her for at least that issue no matter where I go ... even on a walk. The harness and alert tag will still be useful for every day exercise.  I also wear a medical tag.


----------



## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

Abbylynn said:


> .....I would love to rescue a dog and train it myself while I am still capable.


I have to brag on one of my rescues, Brutus a young GSD. I have RA due to my lupus and my bones aren't the greatest. I tend to fall often. (i have crutches and a cane but they're just sooo inconvenient) I just noticed this past week that Brutus will walk real close to me with his shoulder firmly against my thigh, keeping in perfect step with me, especially when I'm on uneven ground. I'm so used to having dogs all around me that I never really paid attention before. But then I realized, when I almost fell, that I've been using him to keep me steady on my feet. He knew what he was doing before I knew what he was doing. lol
Anyway, I just thought it was so cool how he sensed I needed help and he knew what to do.

I love my dogs. They're all just the greatest. 

Brutus:


----------



## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Barking as an alert could get you dismissed from businesses, just so you are aware. It qualifies as causing a disturbance.
> 
> Does Abbylynn have a luxating patella? If she does, she is not a good animal to use for any sort of mobility or counterbalance work. Sound joints are necessary for such work.


A few years ago when I was still in school we had a student move from the states with a dog trained by an organization in the states to alert bark when he had a seizure, alert barking for things like seizures and cessation of breath fall under a different category I was told. (I could have been lied to but I trust the guy)


Edit: would probably be a good idea to call up the gov branch and find out for certain


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

reynosa_k9's said:


> I have to brag on one of my rescues, Brutus a young GSD. I have RA due to my lupus and my bones aren't the greatest. I tend to fall often. (i have crutches and a cane but they're just sooo inconvenient) I just noticed this past week that Brutus will walk real close to me with his shoulder firmly against my thigh, keeping in perfect step with me, especially when I'm on uneven ground. I'm so used to having dogs all around me that I never really paid attention before. But then I realized, when I almost fell, that I've been using him to keep me steady on my feet. He knew what he was doing before I knew what he was doing. lol
> Anyway, I just thought it was so cool how he sensed I needed help and he knew what to do.
> 
> I love my dogs. They're all just the greatest.
> ...


This is fantastic! ... Good Dog!!!

You have such beautiful dogs too. 



Flaming said:


> A few years ago when I was still in school we had a student move from the states with a dog trained by an organization in the states to alert bark when he had a seizure, alert barking for things like seizures and cessation of breath fall under a different category I was told. (I could have been lied to but I trust the guy)
> 
> 
> Edit: would probably be a good idea to call up the gov branch and find out for certain


Thank you ....


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I'm kinda thinking that if you can't breathe, you sort of WANT your dog to be disruptive, right?  If she only barks when you actually need medical attention, that seems OK to me.
> 
> I don't know how you might go about picking a good rescue dog for SD training. Maybe if you work with a rescue that will let you take the dog in for a vet workup and let you spend a lot of time with the dog before you make any permanent decisions.





Flaming said:


> A few years ago when I was still in school we had a student move from the states with a dog trained by an organization in the states to alert bark when he had a seizure, alert barking for things like seizures and cessation of breath fall under a different category I was told. (I could have been lied to but I trust the guy)
> 
> 
> Edit: would probably be a good idea to call up the gov branch and find out for certain


I agree with this. I've been doing a lot of reading lately as I'm taking in a dog soon to be training for SD work and every organization I've talked to and through reading ADA links, as long as the dog is only barking when there is an emergency, it is alright. They aren't causing any more of a disturbance than the unconcious human on the ground. 

Abbylynn, it sounds like you have a great grasp on the training already, and if you are legally disabled, it sounds like Abbylynn can do enough to help you because of the disability that she could start public access training right away (training her in public environments to get her used to working in them) and move on to be a full time service dog. There is no registration necessary anywhere in America, and I urge you to read through the ADA links/laws and understand your rights and what questions businesses can and cannot ask you, so that you are prepared when it happens (because it will happen to almost everyone with a service dog).

As far as her luxating patellas, I would talk to your vet, and show her the strain you would be putting on Abby, let her observe you working with her in such a way and the response from Abby, and ask her if it would be too much for her physically and if you should acquire another dog for such a thing. If she is trained in enough tasks you could still use her in the meantime (if she cannot physically take the strain) for alerting if there's an issue, getting meds for you, etc. while you train another service dog. I am currently applying to oragizations and looking around to rescue a young adult to train as a service dog, and I would be happy to help you privately on the qualifications I'm looking for in such dogs and evaluations they are expected to pass prior to adoption. 

Good luck! I hope it works out with you and Abbylynn as it seems like the two of you have a fantastic bond!


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I agree with this. I've been doing a lot of reading lately as I'm taking in a dog soon to be training for SD work and every organization I've talked to and through reading ADA links, as long as the dog is only barking when there is an emergency, it is alright. They aren't causing any more of a disturbance than the unconcious human on the ground.
> 
> Abbylynn, it sounds like you have a great grasp on the training already, and if you are legally disabled, it sounds like Abbylynn can do enough to help you because of the disability that she could start public access training right away (training her in public environments to get her used to working in them) and move on to be a full time service dog. There is no registration necessary anywhere in America, and I urge you to read through the ADA links/laws and understand your rights and what questions businesses can and cannot ask you, so that you are prepared when it happens (because it will happen to almost everyone with a service dog).
> 
> ...



Thank you so much! I planned on speaking with the vet. I will gladly and happily take you up on the pm if need be! Thank you! 

And yes ... I was and am deemed "Legally Disabled" in 2011. I sure hope Abbylynn can work for me. We have been together since she was 5 months old. 

EDIT: I have been reading all the ADA info I can get my eyes on.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

So you're training service dogs now, too DJ?


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I bet that just grinds your gears, doesn't it?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

^^Hilariously hysterical. Can't wait for you to school me whilst you raise puppies.

Abbylynn, I legitimately wish you the best in your endeavors, but choosing a service dog is so much more than what it looks like. If it were simple, Mahler would be my service dog. But it is not that simple.

I cannot use a cross eyed dog with bad elbows for balance work. It is dangerous for me and could be highly detrimental to the dog. To ask an animal with joint issues to do any sort of counterbalance work is, realistically, unfair, and, to another degree, irresponsible.

Service dogs must also be absolutely BOMB PROOF! Can you find one in a rescue? Yes. But you would need to have a (profession SD) trainer help you evaluate the dog. It would also be wise to start with an older dog (at least 1-2 years of age). Not to mention you should do hip and elbow x rays to make sure that joints are sound for some of the work you require.

These dogs cannot react to outside stimuli like other dogs. Somebody bumps them? They must ignore it. Somebody hits them with a cart or steps on their paw? They yelp, you check for serious injury, and then the dog must keep working (or you must go home if you think it necessary).

There are just as many cons as there are pros to having one of these animals.


----------



## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

I just wanted to wish you the best of luck in your endeavors Abbylyn whether or not it is finding a new dog for balance work, or just figuring out all the nuances of having a service dog


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thanks guys.  I am taking this very seriously. I may need to find another dog through another route .... but I really need to do so before I can no longer get around but in a wheelchair. Hopefully that is 10 years down the road if I live that long .... or at least until my present pups pass on.


----------



## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I hope things work our for you and Abbylynn, and if not with her, you will find the perfect fit! I love how versatile dogs are and how they can help so many people. If the whole "alert barking being disruptive" is a thing... that is just ridiculous. If there is a serious emergency with someone, that dog should be able to do whatever it needs to to get -someones- attention. My husband works in EMS and he has patients all the time, especially with COPD and some of the things he tells me makes me wish more people had SDs to help them live a normal life.

There was a clip on the news yesterday about how cancer sniffing dogs are becoming more and more researched and worked on - it is just amazing how wonderful these animals can be and we as a society just don't thank them enough.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> ^^Hilariously hysterical. Can't wait for you to school me whilst you raise puppies.


I don't plan on talking to you ever about any service dog you or I am training, so don't worry, & I'm definitely not raising puppies to do this.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJ, which organization are you gonna work with? There are so many to choose from up north! We only have like two or three to choose from down here.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> DJ, which organization are you gonna work with? There are so many to choose from up north! We only have like two or three to choose from down here.


I've actually decided not to work with an organization until I am ready to place a dog. I will be doing the evaluation/selection and training on my own. I'm taking a year long course starting in the spring through a nationally recognized service dog training academy and training my first dog in the time through that, and I've been in contact with a few organizations in the tri state area that work at paying for and pairing SDs with veterans. I've been talking to one that I particularly support and plan on donating my first dog to them and being compensated for each dog after that. I will be primarily training dogs for veterans with PTSD. 

I'm hoping that this will become a career. We will see. I was seeing a guy recently who is an Afghanistan veteran and we went out with his troop a few times. Got to talk to a few gentleman about dogs which turned into the desire/need for more help for veterans with PTSD and recognizing dogs as a great tool. Really sparked my interest so I talked to a few friends with service dogs who have trained them personally and placed them and it kind of evolved from there. Best part is the program is a little expensive, but I am getting a non profit discount through work, getting a grant, and hopefully getting reimbursed for some of the cost through another job as well. Plus tax deductible.

Eta; I just wrote a novel from the bar.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There really aren't "nationally recognized" training academies, as it were (at least not that I've ever seen). I mean, perhaps behavioral "colleges" like ABC, but here in the US, training programs are independently run and organized and there's no sort of accreditation anywhere.

If there are, I'd be interested to be proven wrong...


----------



## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> There was a clip on the news yesterday about how cancer sniffing dogs are becoming more and more researched and worked on - it is just amazing how wonderful these animals can be and we as a society just don't thank them enough.


Yep! That research is being done where I work as a handler (Penn Vet Working Dog Center). It's quite remarkable how well the dogs are doing. We work them every day on the cancer study. It's just a game for them so they are PUMPED and ready to work, which is really cool to see. Just like the other dogs we train. It's all fun for them (wouldn't want it any other way!), but could save lives down the road. However I will say that just because we get a dog in for, say, SAR and begin to train them that way, doesn't mean that they will succeed in that role. Structure/health play a pivotal role in that decision, as does appropriate drive and nerve for the work. We therefore will start training the dogs the same way when they come to us as puppies and as they grow and develop, we may change what we believe they would be best suited for. Obviously preliminary X-rays when they are old enough is a big part of that.

I wish you the best of luck, Abbylynn in your search for the right SD candidate.


----------



## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Finkie_Mom said:


> Yep! That research is being done where I work as a handler (Penn Vet Working Dog Center). It's quite remarkable how well the dogs are doing. We work them every day on the cancer study. It's just a game for them so they are PUMPED and ready to work, which is really cool to see. Just like the other dogs we train. It's all fun for them (wouldn't want it any other way!), but could save lives down the road. However I will say that just because we get a dog in for, say, SAR and begin to train them that way, doesn't mean that they will succeed in that role. Structure/health play a pivotal role in that decision, as does appropriate drive and nerve for the work. We therefore will start training the dogs the same way when they come to us as puppies and as they grow and develop, we may change what we believe they would be best suited for. Obviously preliminary X-rays when they are old enough is a big part of that.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck, Abbylynn in your search for the right SD candidate.


That is seriously awesome! I have to say, I'm jealous. Working with those dogs must be so much fun.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Abbylynn - Best of luck to you! If anyone can do this, it's you.



Finkie_Mom said:


> Yep! That research is being done where I work as a handler (Penn Vet Working Dog Center). It's quite remarkable how well the dogs are doing. We work them every day on the cancer study. It's just a game for them so they are PUMPED and ready to work, which is really cool to see. Just like the other dogs we train. It's all fun for them (wouldn't want it any other way!), but could save lives down the road. However I will say that just because we get a dog in for, say, SAR and begin to train them that way, doesn't mean that they will succeed in that role. Structure/health play a pivotal role in that decision, as does appropriate drive and nerve for the work. We therefore will start training the dogs the same way when they come to us as puppies and as they grow and develop, we may change what we believe they would be best suited for. Obviously preliminary X-rays when they are old enough is a big part of that.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck, Abbylynn in your search for the right SD candidate.


That is really awesome! I think one of the scientists my husband works with is involved with that research (or was at one point).


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

reynosa_k9's said:


> I have to brag on one of my rescues, Brutus a young GSD. I have RA due to my lupus and my bones aren't the greatest. I tend to fall often. (i have crutches and a cane but they're just sooo inconvenient) I just noticed this past week that Brutus will walk real close to me with his shoulder firmly against my thigh, keeping in perfect step with me, especially when I'm on uneven ground. I'm so used to having dogs all around me that I never really paid attention before. But then I realized, when I almost fell, that I've been using him to keep me steady on my feet. He knew what he was doing before I knew what he was doing. lol
> Anyway, I just thought it was so cool how he sensed I needed help and he knew what to do.
> 
> I love my dogs. They're all just the greatest.
> ...


Brutus is very handsome  , so is that Catahoula looking one next to him LOL. That is also why I love working & working / mix dogs, because they are usually like "what can I do to help YOU today?" & I love it.

@Xeph But, I thought that barking by a service dog was allowed in certain situations, like with seizure alert dogs? what happens if the owner passes out or (in Abblynn's case) has a COPD attack & can't breathe or tell someone she is in trouble?


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> @Xeph But, I thought that barking by a service dog was allowed in certain situations, like with seizure alert dogs? what happens if the owner passes out or (in Abblynn's case) has a COPD attack & can't breathe or tell someone she is in trouble?


They are. Here's an article with cited sources. 


http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/can-service-dogs-bark-1135.html


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Thank you! 

Is this legit? ...

http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/standards/training-programs/


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Abbylynn said:


> Thank you!
> 
> Is this legit? ...
> 
> http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/standards/training-programs/


Is what legit? The site or information or...? That site is a great resource for information and networking to find organizations that work with service dogs or place them in different ways and across the country.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Is what legit? The site or information or...? That site is a great resource for information and networking to find organizations that work with service dogs or place them in different ways and across the country.


Yes .... all the above.  Thanks!


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

What training academy?

If such things exist, I am moving.

Also good luck... its a hard job for sure. Training for two years and then having a dog that doesn't place is emotionally rough.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Training for two years and then having a dog that doesn't place is emotionally rough.


Quoted for truth. Super suckage.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

What happens to them I they don't place?


----------



## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> What happens to them I they don't place?


I would hope they'd be adopted out to pet homes..


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It depends on the organization. Generally they are adopted out into pet homes. Some don't make the grade for placement because they are "better" than placement, and are utilized in the breeding program. I know a lot of programs offer first crack at adoption (if the dog cannot be placed or used for breeding) to the puppy raiser.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Xeph said:


> It depends on the organization. Generally they are adopted out into pet homes. Some don't make the grade for placement because they are "better" than placement, and are utilized in the breeding program. I know a lot of programs offer first crack at adoption (if the dog cannot be placed or used for breeding) to the puppy raiser.


The Leader Dogs for the Blind program does this. Dogs that can be placed are placed until retirement into pet homes. Dogs that are better than placement become breeders then retire to pet homes. Dogs that don't make the cut "change careers" into pet homes. The puppy raiser gets dibs. 

My aunt has had two past Leader Dogs. They do a great job with placing and their breeding program. I live fairly close by and as a child I raised money for their program. As a reward they allowed us to your their facility. Really cool program.

Do programs like Leader Dogs have dogs that "turn out" better because of genetics? I mean to say, do they place more dogs into "career homes" because of their super careful breeding program? Or are you better off selecting your own dog?


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

This is all very interesting ... please continue! 

I also forgot to mention that I have an Aunt by marriage whose Brother was diabetic. He went blind. He had a GSD ... seeing eye dog named "Mary" that I was around from time to time as a teenager... for about 4 years until Mary passed away. Then my Aunts Brother also passed not long afterwards. He never did get another service animal.

It was just so awesome to watch this dog work. I have always been so amazed at their abilities.

EDIT: I believe if I remember correctly that Mary had cancer. I do not remember her age.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> The Leader Dogs for the Blind program does this. Dogs that can be placed are placed until retirement into pet homes. Dogs that are better than placement become breeders then retire to pet homes. Dogs that don't make the cut "change careers" into pet homes. The puppy raiser gets dibs.
> 
> My aunt has had two past Leader Dogs. They do a great job with placing and their breeding program. I live fairly close by and as a child I raised money for their program. As a reward they allowed us to your their facility. Really cool program.
> 
> Do programs like Leader Dogs have dogs that "turn out" better because of genetics? I mean to say, do they place more dogs into "career homes" because of their super careful breeding program? Or are you better off selecting your own dog?


That was going to be my next question; I thought I read somewhere that puppies who "don't pan out" as SD's (either for police, military or disabled people) go back to the puppy raiser. But what if the puppy raiser cannot take them, then what?

Also, what after a SD retires from their work (whatever that may be), where do they go?


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Do programs like Leader Dogs have dogs that "turn out" better because of genetics? I mean to say, do they place more dogs into "career homes" because of their super careful breeding program? Or are you better off selecting your own dog?


The organization I work with has been refining their breeder colony since the sixties, and have a passing rate of double when they are their own dogs versus ones from outside breeders. That was worded poorly- basically, dogs from our colony of breeders are twice as likely to make it. So yes, genetics do play a huge role- both in health and in selecting the desired temperament.



OwnedbyACDs said:


> That was going to be my next question; I thought I read somewhere that puppies who "don't pan out" as SD's (either for police, military or disabled people) go back to the puppy raiser. But what if the puppy raiser cannot take them, then what?
> 
> Also, what after a SD retires from their work (whatever that may be), where do they go?


In our organization, if the raiser chooses not to adopt a dog the offer goes to someone on the years long waiting list- tons of people want to adopt the dogs that don't make it.

We have an option for the disabled person to retain legal ownership of the dog, meaning that it is their choice what happens to the dog after its career is over (and most just become pets) OR they can choose to leave ownership to the organization and we "reclaim" the dog and place it in a pet home after career is over.

In short- a lot of work goes into these dogs and it isn't something that can just be jumped into- that is, if you are going to produce a sound, steady worker- you have to be prepared to drop dogs that do not fit the bill and not let your emotions get in the way. One of the posters on here has experienced this situation, and they did the responsible thing and cut the dog from service work, despite the thousands of hours put into the dog. It is dangerous and a poor representation of service dogs when organizations or individuals allow dogs to be put through that are knowingly unsuited for the job.

I will also add that I think things are a lot different in the "for profit" groups- I only (and will only ever) work with groups that are 501 c-3 and place their dogs free of charge. I have a lot of moral qualms about the dogs that are placed by groups that charge for them, and have seen poor quality workers that come from those organizations.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Science! 

Genetics are really cool. Twice the placement rate is fantastic. And it goes to show that health screening is a big deal. Dogs with hip dysplasia or bad elbows don't make very good service dogs, unfortunately.

Love the work that the dogs do. Love it even more when the dogs are free to their new owner. It's incredibly expensive to raise and maintain a service dog in training. Leader Dogs has about 70 breeders at any one time plus all the puppies in raiser homes plus the dogs in harness training plus the dogs getting assigned to their person. They are a nonprofit and much of their cash comes from private donations. 

I was once told that a dog coming out if these programs was worth $30,000 or something. Obviously to the handler, their service dog is everything.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> What training academy?
> 
> If such things exist, I am moving.
> 
> Also good luck... its a hard job for sure. Training for two years and then having a dog that doesn't place is emotionally rough.


There are a lot around the country. I choose between one in Texas, Illinois, and another that changed locations frequently. This is the organization  I have started the process for enrollment in, to take the course next year. Thank you for the luck!  Should be a very neat experience. 

By nationally recognized, I meant that organizations across the nation use the trainers produced from this program. Not that it's accredited in any way. 



RabbleFox said:


> Do programs like Leader Dogs have dogs that "turn out" better because of genetics? I mean to say, do they place more dogs into "career homes" because of their super careful breeding program? Or are you better off selecting your own dog?


Because of their careful breeding they are more likely to produce stable, physically sound dogs that will excel in their program. There are tons of candidates in shelters and such, but you can predict the suitability of these dogs a little more and I'm sure their statistics are better than a random draw from a shelter. 



OwnedbyACDs said:


> That was going to be my next question; I thought I read somewhere that puppies who "don't pan out" as SD's (either for police, military or disabled people) go back to the puppy raiser. But what if the puppy raiser cannot take them, then what?
> 
> Also, what after a SD retires from their work (whatever that may be), where do they go?


If the puppy raisers can't take them back from the organization around here, they are placed up for adoption similar to the way a rescue adopts out dogs. Advertised online, contract/application process, etc. Most dogs that I know that retire with a handler are kept in the home. I imagine there may be the occasion when they can't have more than one dog and they probably rehome the dog however they see fit.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> I was once told that a dog coming out if these programs was worth $30,000 or something. Obviously to the handler, their service dog is everything.


That's what I have read as well... really crazy to think about all of that time and money going into these dogs! :O


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> That's what I have read as well... really crazy to think about all of that time and money going into these dogs! :O


The first organization I worked with est. theirs at 36k. I think 30k is a good ballpark though. Depends on how long the dog is in training obviously but most get placed at 24 months at the earliest... thats a lot of training hours.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> There are a lot around the country. I choose between one in Texas, Illinois, and another that changed locations frequently. This is the organization  I have started the process for enrollment in, to take the course next year. Thank you for the luck!  Should be a very neat experience.
> 
> By nationally recognized, I meant that organizations across the nation use the trainers produced from this program. Not that it's accredited in any way.


How does the year long apprentice thing work? (Idk if you have any idea) Is it like an online vet tech thing where you have to do a certain number of training hours/ month?

Are the graduates from the program contracting out to 501 c-3s?

(IDK if you hve any answers, I'm just curious!)


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> How does the year long apprentice thing work? (Idk if you have any idea) Is it like an online vet tech thing where you have to do a certain number of training hours/ month?
> 
> Are the graduates from the program contracting out to 501 c-3s?
> 
> (IDK if you hve any answers, I'm just curious!)


I PMd you about some of this already, but the year long apprenticeship is a series of homework assignments/progress that you have to video tape of your project dog and send in for critique/acknowledgement to make sure you are working towards the ultimate goal and doing it properly (these are at least monthly from what I can tell, if not many a month). I don't believe there is a certain number of training/hours a month, if it takes you longer than the year to get the dog to the level it needs to be then so be it, you can go at your own pace, but cannot advance until you're meeting the progress quotas, basically. Many of the graduates ARE contracting out to 501(c)3s and that is my plan. The non-profit I'll be working with already utilizes two other graduates from this program successfully.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I also forgot to mention ADI accreditation- all of the organizations I work with are accredited and they have a system in place to evaluate organizations and the dogs they produce. Member organizations also often work with eachother for breeding outcrosses between programs.

http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/location/north-america-adina/united-states/


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> I also forgot to mention ADI accreditation- all of the organizations I work with are accredited and they have a system in place to evaluate organizations and the dogs they produce. Member organizations also often work with eachother for breeding outcrosses between programs.
> 
> http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/location/north-america-adina/united-states/


Ah, this IS the link I used to find many organizations, but it seems like they only accredit organizations that have a breeding program as well? I noticed there weren't as many organizations as I had found on their site, and many of the organizations on their site don't accept dogs outside of their program, either.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Good Grief you guys! ... I am beginning to feel sort of helpless now. I have a dog with a luxating patella who cannot possibly be a mobility dog. I have no clue how or where to look for a bomb proof dog. I am becoming a bit disappointed that I may never be able to have a dog to help me. I want to have my freedom for as long as possible. You know after a while with this disability ... you can/may/will ... become wheelchair and/or bed bound. It is so important for my mental and physical health to be able to get around. Exercise for the lungs is 90% of the battle ... and also your mental outlook 100%.

UUuuuugh! Lol! (Not really a laughing matter)


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> Ah, this IS the link I used to find many organizations, but it seems like they only accredit organizations that have a breeding program as well? I noticed there weren't as many organizations as I had found on their site, and many of the organizations on their site don't accept dogs outside of their program, either.


I know that definitely isnt a requirement (breeding program) because the first organization I worked with does not have one and sources through shelters and private donations. They are recently accredited and an excellent organization- I only switched programs because I moved and a different program had a group closer.

Many of the newer organizations are not going to be accredited- it takes effort and serious foresight, which is why I love the accreditation. It isnt the end all be all, but an accredited organization is going to have put some serious thought into what they are doing, AND have been reviewed by others.



Abbylynn said:


> Good Grief you guys! ... I am beginning to feel sort of helpless now. I have a dog with a luxating patella who cannot possibly be a mobility dog. I have no clue how or where to look for a bomb proof dog. I am becoming a bit disappointed that I may never be able to have a dog to help me. I want to have my freedom for as long as possible. You know after a while with this disability ... you can/may/will ... become wheelchair and/or bed bound. It is so important for my mental and physical health to be able to get around. Exercise for the lungs is 90% of the battle ... and also your mental outlook 100%.
> 
> UUuuuugh! Lol! (Not really a laughing matter)



Okay. To start, what is a short list of the tasks that your SD would need to do to help you?


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I need a dog to help me balance on days when my oxygen level is low and I am walking anywhere. I tend to be a bit off balance some days. I also have issues with vertigo.

I need a dog to bark alert when I have a copd breathing attack if I were to become unconscious. A dog to be able to bring my medication to me. I need the dog to be able to carry articles in a small back pack/saddlebag ... such as meds and bottled water inhaler ... etc. .... as with copd you cannot carry anything heavy without becoming sob (Short of Breath) 

You cannot move quickly. I need a dog who knows how to stop and wait and allow me to lean into them sometimes when I need to stop and catch my breath. I also need a dog to help pull me along at times.

I need a dog to help carry things such as laundry up the stairs and down them.

I know it sounds like I am on my last leg! Lol!  But I am not yet! .... as long as I keep physically active. My doctors are amazed at what I am still doing ... because I only have 25% lung function. It interferes with every aspect of your normal .... well what used to be a normal life. (Don't smoke people!!!)


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

CCI and ADAI are in your area. I would contact them and see if they have any advice about who you might be able to get a dog from or people you could talk to about task training.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Rescued said:


> CCI and ADAI are in your area. I would contact them and see if they have any advice about who you might be able to get a dog from or people you could talk to about task training.


Thank you!  I will look into this right after dinner!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would look into CCI for sure.

For the record DJEtzel, the "college" you are looking at is considered highly sketchy within the community


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I would look into CCI for sure.
> 
> For the record DJEtzel, the "college" you are looking at is considered highly sketchy within the community


For the record, it's not a college and I don't care what you or "the community" thinks. It's obvious that very good trainers have come from it and organizations like to see the certification and that's all I care about.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> For the record, it's not a college and I don't care what you or "the community" thinks. It's obvious that very good trainers have come from it and organizations like to see the certification and that's all I care about.


I think Xeph was just trying to give you a heads up before you spend any money on something that might not be worth what you pay for it :/


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I will link this, for anyone that is reading this and interested in becoming a service dog trainer. The ADI cautions against the type of program that DJetzel mentioned, but ultimately it is up to the individual to decide what is right for them and their situation.

http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/standards/training-programs/


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

@rescued thanks for the link, it was very informative, as all the links have been. I have learned a lot from this thread.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Any more questions feel free to ask! I DEFINITELY do not even come remotely close to knowing everything, but I do know and have experienced the basics.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

No but there Are those like Xeph who actually have a SD & know all about day to day life with a SD as well as others who know organizations & websites that have a wealth of information. 

I have learned more then I think I ever could searching on my own.


----------



## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No but there Are those like Xeph who actually have a SD & know all about day to day life with a SD as well as others who know organizations & websites that have a wealth of information.
> 
> I have learned more then I think I ever could searching on my own.


Honestly, I think I might just get out the popcorn at this point 

But these links have been awesome in all seriousness!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Y'know, DJ, you can be as snide as you want, but "the community" that you so snarkily refer to is the one you are professing you wish to serve. You should probably care about what those within it think.

But whatever, I'll just wait for you to flit onto your next endeavor when this one proves to boring (read: not lucrative) fo ryou.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Honestly, I think I might just get out the popcorn at this point
> 
> But these links have been awesome in all seriousness!


I dont think ownedbyacds was being snarky? I might be totally wrong though


----------



## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Nah, I was referring to DJ vs Xeph/everyone  I should have probably quoted them. (Yeah I quoted the referee which doesn't make sense in retrospect.)


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would also like to add that when it comes to down to new people looking for an SD trainer or a program, it is the community that helps refer people. Who else is going to know the program and private trainer options better than those already IN the community (and not everybody in the community is an SD handler)?


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I have gotten a wealth of information from this thread ... and very much appreciated.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Would it not perhaps make more sense for the OP, Abbylynn, to find an organization that may have a dog trained in things she might need already. Something like Paws with a Cause? They do SDs for a variety of disabilities and they match you to the proper dog. 

As for SD training... I know Leader Dogs for the Blind hires trainers in and trains them to train their dogs. This seems to be a more dependable route than attempting to train your own and ponder him off to the organization. Less fail rate when you get them at the ready-to-be-trained 14 months old. This would be something I'd be interested in later in life after I do more training myself. They require 6 years experience or something.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

RabbleFox, yes. That is why CCI was suggested


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I'm going to sound dumb but what's CCI stand for? XD


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

http://www.cci.org/site/c.cdKGIRNqEmG/b.4011119/ <--Here ya go


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Ah-ha! Thank you!!! Now I'm not in the dark. 

All this service dog talk makes me want to adopt a retiree. Le sigh...


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I googled the CCI & they seem like a good organization.

I also didn't mean to start any trouble or be a "referee" , Its just on the Internet things can be easily take the wrong way.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I am not eligible for "Paws with a cause" ... I have other dogs in my home.

https://www.pawswithacause.org/i-want-a-dog/qualification-info

This is not going to be an easy task ..............


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Nah, I was referring to DJ vs Xeph/everyone  I should have probably quoted them. (Yeah I quoted the referee which doesn't make sense in retrospect.)


Yeah, there is pretty obviously some pent up hostility for a few members here. Don't know and don't care to know but I'm betting there is some personal history involved. 

The links are fascinating though.

I do have a question for Rescued (or others). Aren't Service Dogs generally trained in home? The ADI link makes it sound like its a minimum 3 year journey to becoming a trainer and you usually have to start dog walking/poop scooping. Is that normal? How do/did people get involved?


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Abbylynn said:


> I am not eligible for "Paws with a cause" ... I have other dogs in my home.
> 
> https://www.pawswithacause.org/i-want-a-dog/qualification-info
> 
> This is not going to be an easy task ..............


Weird! I didn't know they had such a policy.  I'm sure it's to prevent SD bring injured by pet dogs or something crazy.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I also have a question, is it possible to use ones own dog as a SD like Abbylynn wishes to? If they are "worthy" of course.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> is it possible to use ones own dog as a SD like Abbylynn wishes to? If they are "worthy" of course.


Of course. I owner train. I won't go to programs because many have rules like Paws for a Cause....I'm not going to let somebody else tell me I can't have any other animals.

That said, it is HARD work, and you need to set your desires aside, and go into it with eyes open, get unbiased help, and wash out a dog when it is clear they are just not going to make it.



> Aren't Service Dogs generally trained in home?


What do you mean? Define "in home". How things are done will vary between being an owner trainer and getting a program dog.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Do those rules apply to recipients of SD's? About no other animals or does that depend on the organization the dog comes from?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Depends on the organization, but it is not an uncommon rule. Some orgs require return of the dog upon retirement (also a big NO for me).


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

aiw said:


> I do have a question for Rescued (or others). Aren't Service Dogs generally trained in home? The ADI link makes it sound like its a minimum 3 year journey to becoming a trainer and you usually have to start dog walking/poop scooping. Is that normal? How do/did people get involved?


well... you volunteer  You raise a puppy, you raise two puppies, you help at meetings, you go to fundraisers, ALL without being paid one cent, and ALL THE WHILE paying emotionally because you are saying goodbye to these animals you love.

And then (at least in ours) you slowly move up the ladder (puppy raiser (PR), guiding 10 PR while raising, guiding a state of groups of PR, moving to the state in which the home kennels are, and start doing stuff there.

Basically, IMO (and I have never experienced otherwise) you are not going to get paid to be a trainer by a nonprofit unless you have proven that you want to do the work, and you've done it, and you've done it because you enjoy HELPING PEOPLE, above all.

In SD orgs, everything is FOR the recipients and the disabled. For me, this isn't about "I want to get paid training service dogs." For me, it is "I want to see these dogs go on to form an amazing bond and change someones life and give them independence."

Nugget is leaving in about two weeks. I am sad and emotional and just hoping that all of the work I have done will change someones life for the better. Its an incredible amazing journey that I love every second.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Depends on the organization, but it is not an uncommon rule. Some orgs require return of the dog upon retirement (also a big NO for me).


I am completely with you on this. I feel the same way. That is why I am looking for all possible routes. I am not about to give up my crew for a SD through an organization. I would go without first!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I would go without first!


Same here.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I am sad and emotional and just hoping that all of the work I have done will change someones life for the better. Its an incredible amazing journey that I love every second.


THIS is the attitude that people need to have doing this kind of work <3


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Is Paws with a Cause the organization using papillons as hearing dogs? A person involved in SDs told me a few years ago that a couple orgs were using the breed and I noticed their photo of a hearing dog on their page was a pap. I think it's very interesting.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Is Paws with a Cause the organization using papillons as hearing dogs? A person involved in SDs told me a few years ago that a couple orgs were using the breed and I noticed their photo of a hearing dog on their page was a pap. I think it's very interesting.



Sure looks that way!  https://www.pawswithacause.org/i-want-a-dog/hearing-dogs

What types of dogs does PAWS use?
PAWS Service Dogs, Seizure Response Dogs and Service Dogs for Children with Autism are primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers and crosses of the two breeds. PAWS Hearing Dogs may be Retrievers or small breed dogs. Occasionally, PAWS has Poodles or Poodle mixes reserved for clients in need of a hypo-allergenic dog. All dogs must pass specialized health and temperament screenings to be accepted into training.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Xeph said:


> THIS is the attitude that people need to have doing this kind of work <3


Thank you Xeph, it means a lot. people keep saying "but dont you want to keep him?" I will of course be happy if I end up adopting him as a pet, but will be so so so much happier if he leaves me to go to greater things.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Is Paws with a Cause the organization using papillons as hearing dogs? A person involved in SDs told me a few years ago that a couple orgs were using the breed and I noticed their photo of a hearing dog on their page was a pap. I think it's very interesting.


A lot of the hearing dogs are smaller breeds- we used a CKCS in one organization I worked with. A lot of the recipients just preferred a smaller size dog, since they dont need mobility assistance.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That is cool. This person said they liked smaller, more portable, versatile, and highly alert dog breeds for hearing dogs. Paps definitely fit that bill.


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Rescued said:


> well... you volunteer  You raise a puppy, you raise two puppies, you help at meetings, you go to fundraisers, ALL without being paid one cent, and ALL THE WHILE paying emotionally because you are saying goodbye to these animals you love.
> 
> And then (at least in ours) you slowly move up the ladder (puppy raiser (PR), guiding 10 PR while raising, guiding a state of groups of PR, moving to the state in which the home kennels are, and start doing stuff there.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised that SD trainers are paid at all.... I've never investigated the process, I just assumed they were raised in homes similar to foster homes (but with many more requirements and training). Also that you have to live in the home state of the kennels.

Its a very different process from what I imagined it seems.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

aiw said:


> I'm surprised that SD trainers are paid at all.... I've never investigated the process, I just assumed they were raised in homes similar to foster homes (but with many more requirements and training). Also that you have to live in the home state of the kennels.
> 
> Its a very different process from what I imagined it seems.


Oh I'm not paid! The top trainers in NY are paid, and ^ thats how they got there. In essence, they are able to provide the dogs free of charge because all of the volunteer puppy raisers.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

aiw said:


> I'm surprised that SD trainers are paid at all.... I've never investigated the process, I just assumed they were raised in homes similar to foster homes (but with many more requirements and training). Also that you have to live in the home state of the kennels.
> 
> Its a very different process from what I imagined it seems.


From what I understand... The Trainers at the organization don't do much until the puppy leaves the Puppy Raiser. The trainers with the organization would then pick up with choosing the dogs who continue, harness training, and the team training part. For Leader Dogs, you are expected to work 40+ hours a week for a minimal salary. They pay you but you do a hella lot of work. You probably aren't paid "enough" for the hours you would put in. 

But since being with the organization, such as Leader Dogs for the Blind, for 40+ Hours a week, I'd imagine they'd have to make it your job!


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I think Xeph was just trying to give you a heads up before you spend any money on something that might not be worth what you pay for it :/


No. She was not. 



Rescued said:


> I will link this, for anyone that is reading this and interested in becoming a service dog trainer. The ADI cautions against the type of program that DJetzel mentioned, but ultimately it is up to the individual to decide what is right for them and their situation.
> 
> http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/standards/training-programs/


I think I misunderstood you when you were talking about organizations being accredited before! I thought you were talking about organizations that raise or place dogs, not organizations that train you to train them? Or were you? I'm rather confused at this point and the ADI site has confused me more than once as well.  

Unfortunately, having any sort of certification like this is the only way I've found that I will be able to donate a dog to an organization. And if the dogs being placed through the organization are working well in the community, I have no reason to believe that there would be a problem using the organization for reference to be able to show another organization that they should take my dog, ya know? I know I talked to you about doing it privately and I'd love to do that, but it does make me a little nervous having my best contact for learning to place and handler train a dog many thousands of miles away. :/ 

Around here, for paws with a cause, whom I was planning on puppy raising for, they don't have options of "moving up the ladder"... All of their paid positions actually working within the organization are not only rarely hiring but have high requirements that I couldn't possibly meet without branching out on my own first. I did have an interview last year with the organization, but did not have enough education or experience for an off job, either. I also really like the psych disability training/help a lot more which I have not been able to find on a large scale like paws with a cause or leader dogs.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I dontknow ... It just didn't seem like she we being rude, but I don't know the history btw you two & whatever & I have also just had two glasses of wine so ... Lol.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

> I think I misunderstood you when you were talking about organizations being accredited before! I thought you were talking about organizations that raise or place dogs, not organizations that train you to train them? Or were you? I'm rather confused at this point and the ADI site has confused me more than once as well.


I was originally talking about the organizations that raise/place dogs, yes. The ADI accredits such organizations.

The last link I provided was a section of the ADI website about "I want to be a service dog trainer, how should I go about it." And the ADI cautions strongly against becoming certified with the type of program you are using, but the ADI does not certify training programs.



> Unfortunately, having any sort of certification like this is the only way I've found that I will be able to donate a dog to an organization. And if the dogs being placed through the organization are working well in the community, I have no reason to believe that there would be a problem using the organization for reference to be able to show another organization that they should take my dog, ya know? I know I talked to you about doing it privately and I'd love to do that, but it does make me a little nervous having my best contact for learning to place and handler train a dog many thousands of miles away. :/


I guess I'm confused why you want to proceed right away to OT a dog? Why would you not volunteer for a year or two, foster a dog or two, and see what its all about?



> Around here, for paws with a cause, whom I was planning on puppy raising for, they don't have options of "moving up the ladder"... All of their paid positions actually working within the organization are not only rarely hiring but have high requirements that I couldn't possibly meet without branching out on my own first. I did have an interview last year with the organization, but did not have enough education or experience for an off job, either. I also really like the psych disability training/help a lot more which I have not been able to find on a large scale like paws with a cause or leader dogs.


Well they are not going to (usually) hire individuals that haven't "proven" themselves to be dedicated to the organization (or AN organization. We have some trainers that have worked at other ADI accredited schools first). You prove yourself through volunteering and being a dedicated individual for years.

This is all about helping people- not about being paid to train dogs, and not even about the dogs themselves. I don't train SD because I love dogs- I train SD because I love people.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Rescued .... How old was Nugget when you began his training?


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Abbylynn said:


> Rescued .... How old was Nugget when you began his training?


Nugget was born into the program (to one of our foundation dams) and I think was placed with his first puppy raiser at around 12 weeks (they place pups anywhere from 7-12 weeks, just depends on how transport scheduling works out). They felt that they did not have the time to commit to him, and so he was transferred to me at six months old.

In the nursery, the pups have an extremely specialized system in place to help provide optimal socialization before they are placed with a raiser. This is not to say that rescues cannot be successful working dogs, but just emphasizes the importance of that formative period. So in reality- Nugget began his training the day he was born.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Rescued said:


> Nugget was born into the program (to one of our foundation dams) and I think was placed with his first puppy raiser at around 12 weeks (they place pups anywhere from 7-12 weeks, just depends on how transport scheduling works out). They felt that they did not have the time to commit to him, and so he was transferred to me at six months old.
> 
> In the nursery, the pups have an extremely specialized system in place to help provide optimal socialization before they are placed with a raiser. This is not to say that rescues cannot be successful working dogs, but just emphasizes the importance of that formative period. So in reality- Nugget began his training the day he was born.


Awesome! I know there are shelter dogs out there capable of all sorts of things given the proper training and the proper trainer.  My Eddee is a good example for sure! Lol!


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Abbylynn said:


> Awesome! I know there are shelter dogs out there capable of all sorts of things given the proper training and the proper trainer.  My Eddee is a good example for sure! Lol!


If you decide to OT, there are a number of breeders that would be excellent choices for a prospect puppy. With the right foundation, it comes down to luck as so many things can go wrong.

Also- are you wanting a public access dog, or just a dog to help you at home?


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Rescued said:


> If you decide to OT, there are a number of breeders that would be excellent choices for a prospect puppy. With the right foundation, it comes down to luck as so many things can go wrong.
> 
> Also- are you wanting a public access dog, or just a dog to help you at home?


I mostly want a dog to help me at home and when I am out walking. Going into a pet friendly establishment would be about the only time I would consider taking the dog into an establishment. I do not go out to establishments much due to the disease. 

I am per Physician ... to be away and out from the public as much as possible from September until June of each year due to all the viruses. COPD folks can catch someone else's cold and it turn into pneumonia or an exacerbation very quickly. I lead a sheltered life during that time period .... so it is just I and my dogs walking or hiking or training ...etc. In fact I only see my Niece's and Nephew's and Sister's ... etc during the holidays providing they are not ill.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Abbylynn said:


> I mostly want a dog to help me at home and when I am out walking. Going into a pet friendly establishment would be about the only time I would consider taking the dog into an establishment. I do not go out to establishments much due to the disease.
> 
> I am per Physician ... to be away and out from the public as much as possible from September until June of each year due to all the viruses. COPD folks can catch someone else's cold and it turn into pneumonia or an exacerbation very quickly. I lead a sheltered life during that time period .... so it is just I and my dogs walking or hiking or training ...etc. In fact I only see my Niece's and Nephew's and Sister's ... etc during the holidays providing they are not ill.


In that case, a released dog from another program may work- dependent on what they were released for, of course. Many times these dogs are adopted out to the general public. The catch is that most (all?) programs will not want their "name" being used for a released dog, so I assume you would have to agree to not take the dog in public as a representative SD of that program, if that makes sense.


----------



## 4TheDawgies (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh man do you know the GSD Ronnie?! He was bred by a breeder local to me who trains at my Schutzhund club with me! Small world! 



Finkie_Mom said:


> Yep! That research is being done where I work as a handler (Penn Vet Working Dog Center). It's quite remarkable how well the dogs are doing. We work them every day on the cancer study. It's just a game for them so they are PUMPED and ready to work, which is really cool to see. Just like the other dogs we train. It's all fun for them (wouldn't want it any other way!), but could save lives down the road. However I will say that just because we get a dog in for, say, SAR and begin to train them that way, doesn't mean that they will succeed in that role. Structure/health play a pivotal role in that decision, as does appropriate drive and nerve for the work. We therefore will start training the dogs the same way when they come to us as puppies and as they grow and develop, we may change what we believe they would be best suited for. Obviously preliminary X-rays when they are old enough is a big part of that.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck, Abbylynn in your search for the right SD candidate.


----------



## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

4TheDawgies said:


> Oh man do you know the GSD Ronnie?! He was bred by a breeder local to me who trains at my Schutzhund club with me! Small world!


Yes I do know Ronnie! I get to work with him daily. He's a great dog - solid temperament and lots of drive for whatever work he's doing. I actually just did a direction and control demo with him yesterday at our first anniversary celebration


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

My Assistance Dog Trainee .... "Cookie" 


Resampled_2013-09-25_12-15-50_954 (3) by Leah Lu, on Flickr

Now I need all the help I can get! Lol!  Keep the thread going ...........


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Wait... you got a pup already?!

Wow, that was fast. Did you get her from an organization or shelter?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Awesome Abbylynn, I am rooting for you, hope everything works out


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

aiw said:


> Wait... you got a pup already?!
> 
> Wow, that was fast. Did you get her from an organization or shelter?


She almost made it through the kill shelter door ... but I intervened in the parking lot! Lol!


----------



## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm happy for your. I hope everything goes well!


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Schedule an appointment with vet first off. You need:
OFA quality (may have to go to a different vet than usual, OFA positioning is tricky) hip and elbow Xrays.
Heartworm test
CERF quality eye exam
I would strongly reccomend testing for EIC since she appears to be a lab mix.
Regular vax series, spay

Once those are done and submitted, you need to temperment test- and you HAVE to be picky. Having a dog pass that is from the correct bloodlines and has the ultimate start in life is hard enough- you are going to have to be emotionally prepared.

Actually, how old is pup estimated to be? OFA may not even be worth a prelim at this point depending on age.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Also Abbylynn keep in mind that it is highly unlikely that full grown, she will be big enough to do anything more than counterbalance. Keep this in mind while evaluating her as I dont know how high on your priority list learning how to brace is.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> I was originally talking about the organizations that raise/place dogs, yes. The ADI accredits such organizations.
> 
> The last link I provided was a section of the ADI website about "I want to be a service dog trainer, how should I go about it." And the ADI cautions strongly against becoming certified with the type of program you are using, but the ADI does not certify training programs.


I guess I'm lost as to where they're cautioning strongly against this? I couldn't find anything like that anywhere on their site.



> I guess I'm confused why you want to proceed right away to OT a dog? Why would you not volunteer for a year or two, foster a dog or two, and see what its all about?


Well really, I am looking to be involved a little more. Be able to learn to do training and place dogs. I've fostered dogs for years already, so that really doesn't appeal to me a whole lot more through an organization, especially when I will likely be choosing from a lab or golden... breeds that I am not usually interested in really and will just have more stipulations. The organizations that I've found that DO place PTSD services dogs anywhere around here take privately trained dogs from private contractors... where the certification would come in handy.



> Well they are not going to (usually) hire individuals that haven't "proven" themselves to be dedicated to the organization (or AN organization. We have some trainers that have worked at other ADI accredited schools first). You prove yourself through volunteering and being a dedicated individual for years.


The thing is, I'm interested in the training portion. Volunteering and raising puppies for years, doing work around the building, etc. isn't going to give me the experience necessary to work for them and I'm really interested in a different type of service dog training than there is around here, anyway. I couldn't find any other organization in the area that raised, trained, and placed dogs for PTSD. If there is one that you know of, that may help significantly and may be easier in the meantime. 



> This is all about helping people- not about being paid to train dogs, and not even about the dogs themselves. I don't train SD because I love dogs- I train SD because I love people.


I completely agree. I want to do this to help people like the soldiers I met that could use one. And I want to do it to educate people about service dogs. I don't want to do it to get rich. I want to donate dogs that I train for the most part, just receiving compensation for the actual costs, eventually, because I can't afford to do it for free, and it is a service that there is money out there to pay for thanks to non-profits. Kind of like being a doctor- I want to do it to help people, but I can't do it for free, either.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I am on my phone so when I get on my computer tonight I will link back to where they said that and expand on what I'm saying below:

I am roughly the same age as you. This summer marked my tenth year of fostering.

SD raising/training/fostering is SO incredibly different than normal fostering. SO DIFFERENT. IMO, you need to calm down and raise a puppy first so you know what you're getting into. This is not an insult in any way.

Ill be back later!


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Abbylynn, is this going to be your personal dog or are you looking to train her for an organization? whatever you choose, I wish you the best


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Abbylynn, is this going to be your personal dog or are you looking to train her for an organization? whatever you choose, I wish you the best



Thank you. 

Cookie is going to be my own personal dog. She is going to be too small for a mobility dog. I will use other routes for that. I want her to retrieve and alert only. I have started obedience training the first day she came home. She is doing very well. Learned to sit by lure in one setting basically. Remembered the next day without a lure. Doing the training in intervals and before bedtime.

Last night she slept in the bed with me and never got out of it. Went potty outside first thing this morning upon waking. Picked up my shoe outside before I could put it on. I praised her like crazy for that.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/standards/training-programs/



> How long does it take to become a Service Dog trainer?
> Most Service Dog programs have a* two to three year apprentice training program*. Shorter programs *might be able to train a Service Dog in general*. They *can not fully train an individual to deal with different temperament dogs*. It is unlikely that you can learn to place a dog with a disabled individual in this amount of time as well as have knowledge of many different disabilities. *You are in a buyer beware situation with schools that promise to make you a Service Dog trainer in 6 months.* Be especially careful of if they have never had experience with the placement of a Service Dog with a disabled individual.


Linked from the ADI website, bolded by me. More snippets from the webpage:



> There are many people applying for limited positions. If you’re interested in cleaning poop, running errands, filling out paperwork, shoveling snow and everything else involved producing Service Dogs, take the time to find an opening. Finding an opening in your area *often is enhanced by your volunteering prior to getting an apprentice position*.


AKA... training SD is (unfortunately) not just having fun training a dog and taking it places. There is a lot of non fun stuff thrown in there too (which I'm sure you know DJ, as I think you've worked in a kennel setting before).

The reality (at least with what I as well as the ADI consider reputable programs) is that there are a LOT of people that want to be paid to train dogs. I get people asking me all the time... "Wow thats so cool! I love dogs! And helping disabled people, that sounds cool too! And you get to take it everywhere you go!? How do I do that?"

Well... you need to volunteer first. You need to show everyone that this isnt something that you're doing because you want to have a job training dogs. This is something that you do because you can find the joy in long hours of manual labor, hours of emotionally exhausting placements, hours of blood, sweat, and tears, heartbreak when the dog you've been training for two years is released....

There is SO much good in the programs. It is an incredible experience. But- and I say this because I have done, and am currently doing both-

*Training a SD and being a foster parent for one is so uniquely unlike any former fostering and training experience you have ever had.*

And I love it. And the fact that I am unpaid has NO bearing on the level of involvement I have, _because_ this is not about me, this is not about what I can get out of it, this is not about nugget, this is not about me loving dogs and wanting to work with them.

_This is about a drive and a desire to sacrifice so that others can have._

And before anyone jumps on me, *these thoughts are NOT directed at any individual*. I am posting all of this because I KNOW this thread is going to come up on google when people are searching for info about training service dogs.

I would also like to say that these thoughts will not apply to all SD organizations. As DJ said, there are trainers that have taken her one week course online, submitted followup videos for a year, became certified, and are now being paid to train dogs. I have never worked with an organization that uses trainers that are trained in this manner, and as such am not going to comment (publicly) on the "veracity" of these organizations. My experiences are with ADI accredited nonprofits who utilize trainers that have been working within their organization (or a sister organization) for decades.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

> I guess I'm lost as to where they're cautioning strongly against this? I couldn't find anything like that anywhere on their site.


See me above post



> Well really, I am looking to be involved a little more.


A little more than volunteering to foster a train a dog 24/7? What greater level of involvement is there?



> I've fostered dogs for years already, so that really doesn't appeal to me a whole lot more through an organization, especially when I will likely be choosing from a lab or golden... breeds that I am not usually interested in


There is a reason why labs and goldens are used... and the reason is not that the foster parents love labs and goldens. The reason is that they (in general) make good dogs FOR THE RECIPIENTS- because thats who this is about. 



> The thing is, I'm interested in the training portion.


I guess I'm failing to understand how I'm not a trainer? I wouldn't have the skills necessary to go right into advanced training without having first done the puppy raising.



> Volunteering and raising puppies for years, doing work around the building, etc. isn't going to give me the experience necessary to work for them


But it is, and thats what you don't undertstand. Doing all of that gruntwork is going to give you the experience and the insight and the reasoning necessary to be an advanced trainer.



> I couldn't find any other organization in the area that raised, trained, and placed dogs for PTSD.


PTSD dogs are a recent phenom. You need to have the background and foundation in SD (IMO) to successfully work with PTSD dogs. A lot of PTSD sufferers also have secondary conditions that necessitate a dog that is well versed in "traditional" mobility, sight, or hearing related work.



> I want to donate dogs that I train for the most part, just receiving compensation for the actual costs, eventually, because I can't afford to do it for free,


You say eventually. Girl- I can't afford to do this for free either. So... how am I doing it for free? Well, I'm busting my butt at another job, so that I have enough to fund my volunteer activities. I go without to provide for others, because this is something that I'm passionate about. I took a pay decrease at my job and gave up another job so that I would have time for the SD raising. You dont have to do it this way forever- but IMO you should be open to doing it for a while.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> http://www.assistancedogsinternational.org/standards/training-programs/


I definitely see the harm in some of the schools, for sure. I don't think a short, general school like that would be very quality. I do like that the course I'm planning on taking is geared towards one type of service dog, and I don't really need to learn about different temperaments or training in that respect. If I had to learn everything about dog training, it would definitely be another story.



> AKA... training SD is (unfortunately) not just having fun training a dog and taking it places. There is a lot of non fun stuff thrown in there too (which I'm sure you know DJ, as I think you've worked in a kennel setting before).


Oh absolutely. I worked in shelters for about 3 years... euthanasias, disease, death, abuse and cruelty. Along with all that poop. >.<



> The reality (at least with what I as well as the ADI consider reputable programs) is that there are a LOT of people that want to be paid to train dogs. I get people asking me all the time... "Wow thats so cool! I love dogs! And helping disabled people, that sounds cool too! And you get to take it everywhere you go!? How do I do that?"
> 
> Well... you need to volunteer first. You need to show everyone that this isnt something that you're doing because you want to have a job training dogs. This is something that you do because you can find the joy in long hours of manual labor, hours of emotionally exhausting placements, hours of blood, sweat, and tears, heartbreak when the dog you've been training for two years is released....


It IS something that I want to do because I want to have a job training dogs, though. I want to do it in this respect instead of continuing to teach group classes because I want to help people, but I want to do it because this is the field (dog training) that interests me. I completely understand what you're saying and get it, but I'm already in the training field, I would just like to bridge that gap and go into training service dogs as well. Not only privately and placing them, but working one on one teaching people how to train their own dogs. There is a HUGE demand in this area for that sort of service, especially. I got three phone calls at work yesterday about service dog information.




> *Training a SD and being a foster parent for one is so uniquely unlike any former fostering and training experience you have ever had.*


What are some of the differences? I really never thought from talking to friends that have raised puppies and trained their own SDs that it sounded very different. 



> I would also like to say that these thoughts will not apply to all SD organizations. As DJ said, there are trainers that have taken her one week course online, submitted followup videos for a year, became certified, and are now being paid to train dogs. I have never worked with an organization that uses trainers that are trained in this manner, and as such am not going to comment (publicly) on the "veracity" of these organizations. My experiences are with ADI accredited nonprofits who utilize trainers that have been working within their organization (or a sister organization) for decades.


I'm not sure if you mistyped or didn't realize it, but the one week course is actually in person, working all day learning about psychiatric disabilities and task training for them. 



Rescued said:


> A little more than volunteering to foster a train a dog 24/7? What greater level of involvement is there?


I'm talking about learning/teaching task training and being involved in the placement process. 



> There is a reason why labs and goldens are used... and the reason is not that the foster parents love labs and goldens. The reason is that they (in general) make good dogs FOR THE RECIPIENTS- because thats who this is about.


And there are plenty of recipients out there interested in breeds other than goldens/labs/gsds as well (and I know you're aware that there are service dogs in all breeds/shapes/sizes), and it's a lot more difficult to find organizations that utilize off breeds, which is why I want to be able to offer that. For the recipients who don't want those breeds any more than I do.



> I guess I'm failing to understand how I'm not a trainer? I wouldn't have the skills necessary to go right into advanced training without having first done the puppy raising.
> 
> But it is, and thats what you don't undertstand. Doing all of that gruntwork is going to give you the experience and the insight and the reasoning necessary to be an advanced trainer.


Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you if I did by saying that. I am talking about task training, not just public access training and basic rearing. I've raised plenty of puppies and done training, but none of that helps learn how to task train or be able to do that in the future, really. None of raising a puppy will give me the requirements for employment as a SD trainer at the local facility that raises and trains SDs here- Paws with a Cause. I do believe going through a program would be a good first step, however I won't know until I try it out. It's entirely possible it's a crock and won't do anything for me. I have no idea! 



> PTSD dogs are a recent phenom. You need to have the background and foundation in SD (IMO) to successfully work with PTSD dogs. A lot of PTSD sufferers also have secondary conditions that necessitate a dog that is well versed in "traditional" mobility, sight, or hearing related work.


What foundations are you thinking? Raising a puppy would help with this? How? (I'm genuinely looking for help here, it's hard to convey through text)



> You say eventually. Girl- I can't afford to do this for free either. So... how am I doing it for free? Well, I'm busting my butt at another job, so that I have enough to fund my volunteer activities. I go without to provide for others, because this is something that I'm passionate about. I took a pay decrease at my job and gave up another job so that I would have time for the SD raising. You dont have to do it this way forever- but IMO you should be open to doing it for a while.



If I really do have to in order to get anywhere, I will. But... I've been taking care of dogs for free for years on a very low income with no gain- frequently doing the same as you and missing opportunities and/or spending money on necessities for the dogs before myself. But I don't have any more time in my schedule with 5 jobs to work more and can't afford to work less, so if I'm going to be doing more volunteering at this point, it needs to be making progress towards something for certain.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Rescued said:


> well... you volunteer  You raise a puppy, you raise two puppies, you help at meetings, you go to fundraisers, ALL without being paid one cent, and ALL THE WHILE paying emotionally because you are saying goodbye to these animals you love.
> 
> And then (at least in ours) you slowly move up the ladder (puppy raiser (PR), guiding 10 PR while raising, guiding a state of groups of PR, moving to the state in which the home kennels are, and start doing stuff there.
> 
> ...


Great big hugs your way...I can only imagine the huge mix of emotions you must be going through as the day approaches. I'm sure Nugget will make a huge difference in someone's life!


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Rescued said:


> You say eventually. Girl- I can't afford to do this for free either. So... how am I doing it for free? Well, I'm busting my butt at another job, so that I have enough to fund my volunteer activities. I go without to provide for others, because this is something that I'm passionate about. I took a pay decrease at my job and gave up another job so that I would have time for the SD raising. You dont have to do it this way forever- but IMO you should be open to doing it for a while.


There's a really interesting TED Talk about this subject - how we've hamstrung non-profit work by requiring such massive personal sacrifice and viewing overhead as separate from the work itself. The thesis is essentially we've made it impossible for charities to grow or innovate, invest or attract any talent. That strangely we're happy to accept people making money pillaging the earth, but people making money helping others is unacceptable. Only tangentially related, but very interesting.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> but people making money helping others is unacceptable.


It's an issue of "morality". Which is ludicrous.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> It's an issue of "morality". Which is ludicrous.


I agree with this. If a person (or organization ) doesn't make ANY money at all, then how are they supposed to help more people? Even donations in a way are "making money" so to speak. 

Turning a profit isn't necessarily a bad thing, its how the person or organization goes ABOUT it that is either moral or immoral IMHO.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It especially doesn't make sense to me because we make money off of each other ALL the time. It's how the world works. That's economy, folks.

Realistically, doing things out of "the goodness of your heart" only gets you so far when it comes to helping people like this. Money is NECESSARY for these programs to work. But it's "bad" to profit buy selling these dogs and people just don't donate enough money to these programs.

I'm amazed they're still running. It's no surprise that the waiting list for a program SD can be years long.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Xeph said:


> It especially doesn't make sense to me because we make money off of each other ALL the time. It's how the world works. That's economy, folks.
> 
> Realistically, doing things out of "the goodness of your heart" only gets you so far when it comes to helping people like this. Money is NECESSARY for these programs to work. But it's "bad" to profit buy selling these dogs and people just don't donate enough money to these programs.
> 
> I'm amazed they're still running. It's no surprise that the waiting list for a program SD can be years long.


For the record, I wouldn't have a problem with an organization that profited IF the quality of their dogs was the same as those from the reputable nonprofits. I haven't yet found one that fits the bill.

Its sort of like the mixed breed breeder thing... find one that does all of the "good breeder things, and I dont care what you breed. Problem is, you cant find one that does.

Also, DJ- when I feel up to it I will respond haha. Essentially- those are my opinions, and you are welcome to take or leave them. I've stated how *I* think you should go about becoming a service dog trainer, but that doesn't mean you *have* to do it that way- just that its the way *I* think is right.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> For the record, I wouldn't have a problem with an organization that profited IF the quality of their dogs was the same as those from the reputable nonprofits. I haven't yet found one that fits the bill.


I don't disagree. I have found the same problem.



> Problem is, you cant find one that does.


Sure you (general) can


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

> What are some of the differences? I really never thought from talking to friends that have raised puppies and trained their own SDs that it sounded very different.


1. You make a mistake, it affects someone else. When you make a mistake training or shaping or placing or whatever, it isn't so much affecting you as it is affecting someone that is relying on the dog. Normally, when you make training/judgement errors with your own dogs or your fosters that will be pets, its you that pays the price (or another non-disabled pet owner).

2. You make a mistake, everyone is watching. Ill throw out a few examples:

-Dog relieves in the middle of a crowded grocery store. Dog has diarrhea.
-Teaching loose lead walking the way that the _public_ thinks you should.
-Being super frustrated and overcorrecting in a public place.

3. Training sucks sometimes because you can't train the way you would like to. (so many things that I dont even need to list, I'm sure you can think of some.
4. Raising sucks sometimes because you can't raise the dog the way you want to. (acceptable forms of exercise, ect.)

5. Emotionally exhausting because you have to explain everything to Jane and John doe, justify your training methods when other people want to tell you what to do (or risk seeming extremely rude) and constantly having 360 vision when all you want to do is grab a freaking gallon of milk and leave the store.

are the main ones I can think of right off the top of my head. This is not an exhaustive list- I AM exhausted, so this is a short list 







> I'm not sure if you mistyped or didn't realize it, but the one week course is actually in person, working all day learning about psychiatric disabilities and task training for them.


I know its in person. Its the fact that there is no way you can receive the depth of instruction you're going to need in that time period.




> I'm talking about learning/teaching task training and being involved in the placement process.


Once again, how do people that are involved in this get started? (yes, that was a rhetorical question)



> And there are plenty of recipients out there interested in breeds other than goldens/labs/gsds as well (and I know you're aware that there are service dogs in all breeds/shapes/sizes), and it's a lot more difficult to find organizations that utilize off breeds, which is why I want to be able to offer that. For the recipients who don't want those breeds any more than I do.


Okay cool, do those breeds once you get the hang of it. You mentioned wanting to start with an adolescent pit mix, which is NOT a good dog to be your first SD trainee (or even a SD IMO).

also.._Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you if I did by saying that. I am talking about task training, not just public access training and basic rearing._ (applies here)


> I've raised plenty of puppies and done training, but none of that helps learn how to task train or be able to do that in the future, really.


you're going off assumptions here. I am saying that raising a SD puppy will help prepare you. Not that what youve already done will prepare you.



> None of raising a puppy will give me the requirements for employment as a SD trainer at the local facility that raises and trains SDs here-


And thats up to you. Like I said, I do not work with the type of organizations it seems you want to work with (uncertified) so that' going to be on you. 



> Paws with a Cause.* I do believe going through a program would be a good first step, however I won't know until I try it out.* It's entirely possible it's a crock and won't do anything for me. I have no idea!


Right, which is why I think you should try it.





> What foundations are you thinking? Raising a puppy would help with this? How? (I'm genuinely looking for help here, it's hard to convey through text)


A lot of PTSD patients are also limited in mobility, sight, or hearing, due to the physical trauma they received. I dont think its a stretch to say that a background in mobility, sight, and hearing dogs would be of great help when training PTSD dogs.






> If I really do have to in order to get anywhere, I will. But... I've been taking care of dogs for free for years on a very low income with no gain- frequently doing the same as you and missing opportunities and/or spending money on necessities for the dogs before myself. But I don't have any more time in my schedule with 5 jobs to work more and can't afford to work less, so if I'm going to be doing more volunteering at this point, it needs to be making progress towards something for certain.


And this is all up to you. All I'm saying is my personal opinion- if you are confident that you can get where you want to be by doing what you want to do, then go for it!


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Xeph said:


> Sure you (general) can


I think this was in reference to mixed breed breeders and not the SD topic? If so, the only purposeful mix I would desire to own (aside from my mutty shelter dogs of course) are lab x golden crosses.... and I already get to work with them


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would not desire to own any purpose bred mix myself, but there are plenty out there (Shep x Mal, Lurchers, Seppalas, etc).

That said, quit making sense and being awesome


----------



## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

Does anyone listen to JRE podcast? He was debating the fact that it is too easy to have a dog "service dog certified", and I agree. The example he used was an old rich lady had her dog in a restaraunt because it was an "emotional needs" dog. That's a crock! I dont have a problem at all with service dogs that actually have a job, but an emotional needs dog that needs to go to restaraunts and such..... that's just unnecessary. Another example.... there is a video on youtube of a guy that got his AmBully service dog certified, he had it in a mall, but it wasnt providing any service besides advertising his kennel.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Emotional support animals are not service dogs. If a dog does but provide a TRAINED task to mitigate somebody's disability, it is NOT a service dog under the definition of the ADA.

In the USA, there is no certification for service dogs.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I would just like to chime in and add that bully breeds and mixes have a stereotype attached to them which would ruin their potential Service Dog-ness. BSL can get in the way and make things inconvenient for their handler. Plus the amount if flak they would get for having a "vicious" breed in a public access building...

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but... The handlers of the service dogs don't get into service dogs generally with a breed that they "want". Isn't more often they are looking for extra help in their daily lives? I can see if you are allergic and want a poodle or doodle to reduce the reactions or a smaller alert dog because that's all you need. But if I went blind today, I don't think I'd be insisting upon what breed of leader dog I could get. Uhh... One that helps me navigate would be nice.

Obviously you'd get a breed that fits your lifestyle and mobility options. But beyond self training, I don't really hear of a big market let for dogs other than labs, Golden's, GSDs, and smaller alert-type dogs. They fit the bill so why outreach?


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Very interesting so far. This is a great thread for anyone besides myself who wants to learn about the subject at hand.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> I would just like to chime in and add that bully breeds and mixes have a stereotype attached to them which would ruin their potential Service Dog-ness. BSL can get in the way and make things inconvenient for their handler. Plus the amount if flak they would get for having a "vicious" breed in a public access building...
> 
> Also, correct me if I'm wrong but... The handlers of the service dogs don't get into service dogs generally with a breed that they "want". Isn't more often they are looking for extra help in their daily lives? I can see if you are allergic and want a poodle or doodle to reduce the reactions or a smaller alert dog because that's all you need. But if I went blind today, I don't think I'd be insisting upon what breed of leader dog I could get. Uhh... One that helps me navigate would be nice.
> 
> Obviously you'd get a breed that fits your lifestyle and mobility options. But beyond self training, I don't really hear of a big market let for dogs other than labs, Golden's, GSDs, and smaller alert-type dogs. They fit the bill so why outreach?



I actually agree with this. The labs, gsds, goldens are super popular for a reason. They generally have the right temperament, and right size. I LOVE pits and bully breeds, but what happens when your guide dog is dog aggressive? Which is actually a real thing? Never mind the height issue with most pits making a lot of the jobs they need to be able to do awkward. They're heavy, but they're SHORT. Where is that handle going to be? Or reaching light switches with paws?


----------



## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> I would just like to chime in and add that bully breeds and mixes have a stereotype attached to them which would ruin their potential Service Dog-ness. BSL can get in the way and make things inconvenient for their handler. Plus the amount if flak they would get for having a "vicious" breed in a public access building...
> 
> Also, correct me if I'm wrong but... The handlers of the service dogs don't get into service dogs generally with a breed that they "want". Isn't more often they are looking for extra help in their daily lives? I can see if you are allergic and want a poodle or doodle to reduce the reactions or a smaller alert dog because that's all you need. But if I went blind today, I don't think I'd be insisting upon what breed of leader dog I could get. Uhh... One that helps me navigate would be nice.
> 
> Obviously you'd get a breed that fits your lifestyle and mobility options. But beyond self training, I don't really hear of a big market let for dogs other than labs, Golden's, GSDs, and smaller alert-type dogs. They fit the bill so why outreach?


The thing is...aesthetics matter. Yes there are _some_ people who can look past looks, but for many people if a dog isn't aesthetically pleasing they will not be happy. There is a reason why companies exist to "trick out" other forms of medical equipment and why many people special order canes, wheelchairs and walkers that are "pretty." When you have to look at something day in and day out utilitarian is not what many people want. Standard poodles are awesome dogs and would be great to have BUT I just can't stand their look. So, I'll never get one, because I'm human and if other breeds work out just as well I would rather have something I enjoy looking at.

Beyond that there are very practical reasons why a lot of SD handlers would prefer something outside of labs, Goldens and GSDs. Shedding! I have a fairly good friend through my training club who has some sort of degenerative musculature disorder and uses an owner trained Doberman as her assistance dog. She is a neat FREAK and would have gone out of her mind trying to keep up with the shedding that the traditional three leave behind. She also has never, ever found the lab personality appealing. She doesn't want people approaching her or her dog and even with an "I'm Working, Don't Pet" badge lab and golden SDs are perpetually be approached. Nobody approached her with her Doberman and that is exactly what she prefers.

Something else to consider, she has always wanted a Doberman, has been in love with the breed since she was young, but recognizes that her physical limitations mean she will only ever have one dog at a time and that such dog will have to be her service dog. Why should she have to compromise on her breed of choice just because she has a disability? This is of course presuming that her breed of choice would be suitable for the job at hand. I am not even suggesting that an ill suited breed, or individual dog, be even considered. While labs and Goldens make ideal SDs and will always make up the majority of dogs for that role, you would be surprised how many people would probably choose another equally well-trained and capable breed if given the choice. And I think there is a market for such such dogs as long as they individually achieve to the same level as the benchmark breeds.


----------



## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

Emmett said:


> The thing is...aesthetics matter. Yes there are _some_ people who can look past looks, but for many people if a dog isn't aesthetically pleasing they will not be happy. There is a reason why companies exist to "trick out" other forms of medical equipment and why many people special order canes, wheelchairs and walkers that are "pretty." When you have to look at something day in and day out utilitarian is not what many people want. Standard poodles are awesome dogs and would be great to have BUT I just can't stand their look. So, I'll never get one, because I'm human and if other breeds work out just as well I would rather have something I enjoy looking at.
> 
> Beyond that there are very practical reasons why a lot of SD handlers would prefer something outside of labs, Goldens and GSDs. Shedding! I have a fairly good friend through my training club who has some sort of degenerative musculature disorder and uses an owner trained Doberman as her assistance dog. She is a neat FREAK and would have gone out of her mind trying to keep up with the shedding that the traditional three leave behind. She also has never, ever found the lab personality appealing. She doesn't want people approaching her or her dog and even with an "I'm Working, Don't Pet" badge lab and golden SDs are perpetually be approached. Nobody approached her with her Doberman and that is exactly what she prefers.
> 
> Something else to consider, she has always wanted a Doberman, has been in love with the breed since she was young, but recognizes that her physical limitations mean she will only ever have one dog at a time and that such dog will have to be her service dog. Why should she have to compromise on her breed of choice just because she has a disability? This is of course presuming that her breed of choice would be suitable for the job at hand. I am not even suggesting that an ill suited breed, or individual dog, be even considered. While labs and Goldens make ideal SDs and will always make up the majority of dogs for that role, you would be surprised how many people would probably choose another equally well-trained and capable breed if given the choice. And I think there is a market for such such dogs as long as they individually achieve to the same level as the benchmark breeds.


I agree with your perspective, however, statistics are typically stacked in favor of the "big 3" SD breeds in terms of the characteristics needed for SD work. They are intelligent, biddable, flexible, sensitive, have the stamina and energy to work all day and love what they do. When organizations have limited funds, they need to work where the odds are in their favor for turning out a successfully trained guide dog. Sometimes SD organizations will train boxers or other breeds to fill the needs of someone with allergies. Poodles tend to be very literal in their training and some trainers have concerns about teaching them to break a command in order to fulfill the over-all task. That's not to say that dogs within a breed cannot perform the tasks, just that the odds are in favor of the "big 3".


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

3doglady said:


> I agree with your perspective, however, statistics are typically stacked in favor of the "big 3" SD breeds in terms of the characteristics needed for SD work. They are intelligent, biddable, flexible, sensitive, have the stamina and energy to work all day and love what they do. When organizations have limited funds, they need to work where the odds are in their favor for turning out a successfully trained guide dog. Sometimes SD organizations will train boxers or other breeds to fill the needs of someone with allergies. Poodles tend to be very literal in their training and some trainers have concerns about teaching them to break a command in order to fulfill the over-all task. That's not to say that dogs within a breed cannot perform the tasks, just that the odds are in favor of the "big 3".


Agree. If you can afford to personally raise and train a dog or hire a trainer, you could try an breed you wanted. But I think DJ wants to donate her trained dog to a program. Programs use GSDs, labs, and Goldens because they work. It's proven. You don't see many other breeds because they just don't turn out as often. It's a "waste" of time and money to raise SD Dobermans/Huskies/APBT/Shelties/Insert breed here because the big three already fit the bill and are proven breeds that work. 3DogLady mentioned all their plus traits. It just adds up to being the best breeds for service dogs. 

I'm sure there are individual dogs that also for this bill. I've seen/heard of Pitbull SD among other off breeds. Programs just don't work with or breed off breeds because they haven't the time or money to spend on breeds that just don't have the proper personalities for this type of work. 

It's like training a poodle to be a hunting dog. I'm sure some poodles can do it. They are smart, after all. But you don't start a breeding program or picking up random poodles for hunting because most won't work out, no natter how much training you put them through.


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

3doglady said:


> I agree with your perspective, however, statistics are typically stacked in favor of the "big 3" SD breeds in terms of the characteristics needed for SD work. They are intelligent, biddable, flexible, sensitive, have the stamina and energy to work all day and love what they do.


A Doberman perfectly fulfills all those criteria as well. The only concern I could see is smaller dobes being size inappropriate for balance work, same sex aggression, dog aggression or dog reactivity. In some ways it could be an advantage to have a dog with a dislike for other dogs. Labs perpetual exuberance could be a big problem, and a dog that's super excited to meet every dog within two blocks is dangerous too.

SDs don't need to be dog park candidates, they just need to maintain composure around other dogs and ideally, ignore them completely. A lot of DA dogs can be trained to that.

Not saying Dobes are the right choice or the right gamble, but I don't see why they should be out of the question or why the big 3 don't have problems of their own.

EDIT: I agree that there's not necessarily a need for a breeding program. But is DJ thinking about starting one or getting a dog from one? I thought she was adopting an adult and going from there. In which case I think you could really easily deal with all the problems raised here by carefully selecting the right individual.

BSL is something to think about though. For renting and even moving to cities/states/provinces it could be a huge hassle for the handler.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

aiw said:


> EDIT: I agree that there's not necessarily a need for a breeding program. But is DJ thinking about starting one or getting a dog from one? I thought she was adopting an adult and going from there. In which case I think you could really easily deal with all the problems raised here by carefully selecting the right individual.
> 
> BSL is something to think about though. For renting and even moving to cities/states/provinces it could be a huge hassle for the handler.


I can't answer for DJ but from what I understand, DJ is going to train the dog through her school thing and then donate the dog to a PTSD program. I think...

The fact of the matter remains that dogs who come out of breeding programs have twice the success rate that non-program dogs do. Its a gamble even within the breed. Labs bred for show or game are NOT the same as a lab coming out of a SD breeding program. Labs chosen to be bred for SD programs are calm, cool collected and are trained to not pay attention to other dogs and people. Dogs who are obviously too distracted by dogs, people, squirrels, etc do not become SDs much less breeders.

Finding an individual SD can and does happen. But you have to be prepared for a fail.  Which would suck. And put you back in terms of finding a dog to assist you or the program. You could be really, really unsuccessful for months or years. Fail after fail after fail... Then you have to manage to take care of your failed dogs or give them away or return them to the shelter/breeder.

Just as DA dogs can be trained to ignore other dogs so can over friendly dogs. I don't think either are good candidates for Service. It goes against their natural ingrained self. You want a middle of the road dog. That being said, I would rather have a dog friendly SD who ignores dogs on the off chance that another dog literally is less than centimeters from me. What happens if there is an off leash dog like, on top of your Service Dog? Its really, really not safe to push a DA dog's limit.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> SDs don't need to be dog park candidates, they just need to maintain composure around other dogs and ideally, ignore them completely. A lot of DA dogs can be trained to that.


I know dobes who do SD work occasionally as well as Rotts. I don't think there is a problem with either of these, honestly.

I think pits are a whole other ball of wax, frankly, because yes! You just have to train them to completely ignore them. And that's not a big deal for a pet. The thing is? DA shows up at 2, 3, 4, 5 years old fairly often. Or is dog selectivity. And it takes more /time/ to train. So do you hold this SD until it's 5-6 years old or more to be sure it's not going to become reactive to dogs? Even if it doesn't take that long... do you add the 6-8-12 months and associated expense of puppy raising to the training?

Why? If it's your dog and YOU train it to do the work, AWESOME. 

Someone else doing that training? It becomes hazier. Because if that dog fails, it's just become dog aggressive, lost it's mind, and left a disabled person aggression/reacting to another dog and them to deal with it and the fall out of it hitting that point. And as Rabble Fox says, it's not just dogs on leash everywhere. We ALL know this. How much do you trust a DA dog if it's rushed at by an off leash one? 

And BSL is a THING. And that thing is problematic when you have a dog you need to be anywhere, go anywhere, and do anything.


----------



## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

3doglady said:


> I agree with your perspective, however, statistics are typically stacked in favor of the "big 3" SD breeds in terms of the characteristics needed for SD work. They are intelligent, biddable, flexible, sensitive, have the stamina and energy to work all day and love what they do. When organizations have limited funds, they need to work where the odds are in their favor for turning out a successfully trained guide dog. Sometimes SD organizations will train boxers or other breeds to fill the needs of someone with allergies. Poodles tend to be very literal in their training and some trainers have concerns about teaching them to break a command in order to fulfill the over-all task. That's not to say that dogs within a breed cannot perform the tasks, just that the odds are in favor of the "big 3".


Agreed. Which is why I said the following:


Emmett said:


> ...labs and Goldens make ideal SDs and will always make up the majority of dogs for that role...


I never even postulated that organizations should branch out. I merely was providing real life concrete examples to the question of why someone would want another breed than the "big 3" posed by other posters above. There are a number of people who utilize/need SDs who would prefer something other than the traditional 3. Their reasons could be as straightforward as simply preferring another breed or as nuanced as allergies or preferring less shedding or being particularly statuesque and needing a larger assistance dog. Imagine being 6'4" and having a lab or golden assisting you. All are legitimate and valid reasoning for seeking out other less common breeds/types. So, there is a market for competently trained SDs of other breeds and if a private individual or company wants to fill that niche they will most definitely have clients. This is all I was saying, nothing more, nothing less.



RabbleFox said:


> Agree. If you can afford to personally raise and train a dog or hire a trainer, you could try an breed you wanted. But I think DJ wants to donate her trained dog to a program. Programs use GSDs, labs, and Goldens because they work. It's proven. You don't see many other breeds because they just don't turn out as often. It's a "waste" of time and money to raise SD Dobermans/Huskies/APBT/Shelties/Insert breed here because the big three already fit the bill and are proven breeds that work. 3DogLady mentioned all their plus traits. It just adds up to being the best breeds for service dogs.
> 
> I'm sure there are individual dogs that also for this bill. I've seen/heard of Pitbull SD among other off breeds. Programs just don't work with or breed off breeds because they haven't the time or money to spend on breeds that just don't have the proper personalities for this type of work.
> 
> It's like training a poodle to be a hunting dog. I'm sure some poodles can do it. They are smart, after all. But you don't start a breeding program or picking up random poodles for hunting because most won't work out, no natter how much training you put them through.


Please see my above answer AND you might want to read this link:
http://www.history.com/news/assistance-dogs-learning-new-tricks-for-centuries

It is only in recent history, say the last 50-60 years, that labs and Goldens have been considered the "best" service dogs. In fact, poodles and shepherds were originally the breeds primarily used. Why the shift? There are many, many reasons some of which certainly have to do with the breed, but others of which are entirely people created. 

It's funny that we refer to them as the "big 3" when I have never IRL seen a GSD as a service dog. I know they exist and know of web people (Xeph) who use them, but I have seen tons of SDs in my life and never actually seen a GSD, despite having seen a lot of other off-breeds. Which is ironic because for decades Shepherds were pretty much it. Everyone referred to them as the most ideal and best suited for the work. I wonder what changed?

Speaking of which, I know three standard poodle SDs and I know a couple others that were going through training when I met their raiser/trainer. This woman raises service dogs and would periodically have a SP as her pup. I inquired about it and for her organization the ONLY reason they aren't used more often is the extensive grooming (time and expense) that they require. She and the clients who needed them (for allergies almost exclusively) actually prefer the SP not only because they tend to be more collected and trainable, but also because they are typically taller and afford greater access that way.

On another note, standard poodles actually make really good hunting dogs because that is their lineage. They typically have a healthy prey drive and will retrieve for days. Historically, they were water retrievers and still would excel at it if their hair hadn't been morphed to the point it is now and would really become rather unmanageable in a woodsy/hunting setting. But most of them still retain the instincts and there are even fanciers and clubs who hunt with their dogs. The UKC even registers them in the gun dog group. During WWII they were also one of something like 30-odd breeds classified and used as war dogs. 

Makes you look at poodles in a whole new light, eh? An SP from a more work oriented lineage is something that I would really dig, but I just can't stand the poodle coat. If by chance one dropped into my lap I would take it and love it, but is definitely not a breed I would seek out.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

^I will respond more fully when I'm not in class. XD I want to read that article carefully because it peeks my interest.

I see GSDs, Goldens, and Labs most commonly but again, I live like 20 minutes away from the Leader Dogs of the Blind facility. They pump out pups and place them in homes all around the city and neighboring counties. Not only do I see these dogs in training up I've seen quite a few doing their work. Not only Leader Dogs but SDs of other kinds too. I love seeing them work!

I don't see many off breeds but I've heard of them. Especially Poodles or Doodle mixes for allergy reasons.

As to Poodles being trained hunting dogs, what I meant to say is that sometimes some breeds aren't suited to doing a certain task. Obviously my example falls flat because I used Poodles instead of another breed. Perhaps I should stick Pekingese in there or something, hahaha.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Quite honestly, Labs and Goldens are easier for SD handlers to use and maintain. They are goofy, amiable, and easy to live with.

You have to remember that most SD handler are NOT "dog people". They have a dog that helps them, and many love their dogs, but it is just not the same as being a dog person (one of the really crazy ones, like myself).

A GSD is also very different from a Lab or Golden. The GSD has protective instincts, and aggression IS and SHOULD BE part of their genetic makeup. That makes them too much of a liability for people who are unfamiliar with them, and not worth the risk for most orgs to train them.

Many orgs also tried to do their own breeding programs, stopped taking donations from knowledgable successful breeders, and ended up breeding crappy, nervy, unhealthy animals that were not suited for the work.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Im too lazy to go back and quote people who brought these up, but:

Dobies are generally not a healthy breed... that right there is a HUGE issue- there are a lot more health things there that need to be tested for than the average lab/golden.

A lot of programs phased out the use of GSDs because of the health issues, hips particularly. It wasn't as much to do with the breed personality as it was with the number of "healthy" pups they would get out of a litter.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Also, my concerns with the pit SD are the same things Cpt. Jack mentioned-

Propensity for DA
BSL restrictions

and quite honestly- SD and their handlers already have access issues, even when completely legitimate. I see no reason to bring in a breed that is already in a negative light by the media when there are so many suitable alternatives. IMO, it just makes SD seem even less legitimate, and like "any dog can do it."

Therapy dogs? sure. Working SD? I just don't see a need to go there.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> 1. You make a mistake, it affects someone else. When you make a mistake training or shaping or placing or whatever, it isn't so much affecting you as it is affecting someone that is relying on the dog. Normally, when you make training/judgement errors with your own dogs or your fosters that will be pets, its you that pays the price (or another non-disabled pet owner).
> 
> 2. You make a mistake, everyone is watching. Ill throw out a few examples:
> 
> ...


Haha I completely understand and thank you for taking time to answer all of my questions and reply! 

A lot of seems like a lot of it would easier to handle privately than raising dog through an organization. 



> Okay cool, do those breeds once you get the hang of it. You mentioned wanting to start with an adolescent pit mix, which is NOT a good dog to be your first SD trainee (or even a SD IMO).


I definitely completely disagree that a pit would be a good candidate for a SD, but that's another story. There are plenty of them out there, it's not really a concern of mine. I'm not entirely worried about breed as long as it's one I can stand to live with that is suitable for SD work. So I'm not going into it demanding a pit bull by any means. I know I do want to start with an adolescent dog.



> you're going off assumptions here. I am saying that raising a SD puppy will help prepare you. Not that what youve already done will prepare you.


Sorry, I don't know if I was clear. You were saying that I have to raise puppies to be able to work for an organization (accredited-moving up the ladder) which is not true as raising the puppies will not give me any of the experience and skills that I would need to work for such an organization.



> And thats up to you. Like I said, I do not work with the type of organizations it seems you want to work with (uncertified) so that' going to be on you.


I was referencing an accredited organization here. 



> A lot of PTSD patients are also limited in mobility, sight, or hearing, due to the physical trauma they received. I dont think its a stretch to say that a background in mobility, sight, and hearing dogs would be of great help when training PTSD dogs.


Some of them certainly are, but many of them are not as well. I don't think starting with something simple (one type of issue, not multiples) that I know I can handle would be a bad thing. The dog will be trained for a certain type of work and applicants who need more wouldn't be eligible. 



> And this is all up to you. All I'm saying is my personal opinion- if you are confident that you can get where you want to be by doing what you want to do, then go for it!


I understand. I'm certainly not confident of anything. I don't think there's any real way to be. I'm fairly confident that just raising a puppy wouldn't get me where I want to be, though. And I don't see many other options. I've submitted the application and just have to pay the deposit to hold my spot, so I still have time to think about it if maybe it isn't the best option. 

I will definitely be working with a non-profit regardless... I don't see the point in profit organizations like this... accredited or not.



RabbleFox said:


> I would just like to chime in and add that bully breeds and mixes have a stereotype attached to them which would ruin their potential Service Dog-ness. BSL can get in the way and make things inconvenient for their handler. Plus the amount if flak they would get for having a "vicious" breed in a public access building...
> 
> Also, correct me if I'm wrong but... The handlers of the service dogs don't get into service dogs generally with a breed that they "want". Isn't more often they are looking for extra help in their daily lives? I can see if you are allergic and want a poodle or doodle to reduce the reactions or a smaller alert dog because that's all you need. But if I went blind today, I don't think I'd be insisting upon what breed of leader dog I could get. Uhh... One that helps me navigate would be nice.
> 
> Obviously you'd get a breed that fits your lifestyle and mobility options. But beyond self training, I don't really hear of a big market let for dogs other than labs, Golden's, GSDs, and smaller alert-type dogs. They fit the bill so why outreach?


Because people DO want specific dogs. And if they can't find an organization with the breed they want, they just handler-train themselves. There is definitely a want for off breeds out there and there are a LOT of pit bulls as service dogs (heck, there are organizations that ONLY take in pit bulls to train as service dogs) which get access rights that other pit bulls don't. Many dogs (labs and goldens, too!) get flak for public access, I don't think that changes a whole lot when it's a pit bull. 



CptJack said:


> I actually agree with this. The labs, gsds, goldens are super popular for a reason. They generally have the right temperament, and right size. I LOVE pits and bully breeds, but what happens when your guide dog is dog aggressive? Which is actually a real thing? Never mind the height issue with most pits making a lot of the jobs they need to be able to do awkward. They're heavy, but they're SHORT. Where is that handle going to be? Or reaching light switches with paws?


If the dog won't work out for behavioral reasons, it won't work out. If it's dog aggressive, but can work nearby other dogs and function normally, it can still be used as a service dog if it doesn't have to live with another dog. I'm not sure what "a lot of the jobs they need to be able to do" are, but there are TONS of useful tasks for individuals with PTSD that don't need tall dogs. No handle used for any typical PTSD tasks. My pit is on the small side/45 lbs and can easily reach a lightswitch.



Emmett said:


> The thing is...aesthetics matter. Yes there are _some_ people who can look past looks, but for many people if a dog isn't aesthetically pleasing they will not be happy. There is a reason why companies exist to "trick out" other forms of medical equipment and why many people special order canes, wheelchairs and walkers that are "pretty." When you have to look at something day in and day out utilitarian is not what many people want. Standard poodles are awesome dogs and would be great to have BUT I just can't stand their look. So, I'll never get one, because I'm human and if other breeds work out just as well I would rather have something I enjoy looking at.
> 
> Beyond that there are very practical reasons why a lot of SD handlers would prefer something outside of labs, Goldens and GSDs. Shedding! I have a fairly good friend through my training club who has some sort of degenerative musculature disorder and uses an owner trained Doberman as her assistance dog. She is a neat FREAK and would have gone out of her mind trying to keep up with the shedding that the traditional three leave behind. She also has never, ever found the lab personality appealing. She doesn't want people approaching her or her dog and even with an "I'm Working, Don't Pet" badge lab and golden SDs are perpetually be approached. Nobody approached her with her Doberman and that is exactly what she prefers.
> 
> Something else to consider, she has always wanted a Doberman, has been in love with the breed since she was young, but recognizes that her physical limitations mean she will only ever have one dog at a time and that such dog will have to be her service dog. Why should she have to compromise on her breed of choice just because she has a disability? This is of course presuming that her breed of choice would be suitable for the job at hand. I am not even suggesting that an ill suited breed, or individual dog, be even considered. While labs and Goldens make ideal SDs and will always make up the majority of dogs for that role, you would be surprised how many people would probably choose another equally well-trained and capable breed if given the choice. And I think there is a market for such such dogs as long as they individually achieve to the same level as the benchmark breeds.


Perfect examples right here. 



3doglady said:


> I agree with your perspective, however, statistics are typically stacked in favor of the "big 3" SD breeds in terms of the characteristics needed for SD work. They are intelligent, biddable, flexible, sensitive, have the stamina and energy to work all day and love what they do. When organizations have limited funds, they need to work where the odds are in their favor for turning out a successfully trained guide dog. Sometimes SD organizations will train boxers or other breeds to fill the needs of someone with allergies. Poodles tend to be very literal in their training and some trainers have concerns about teaching them to break a command in order to fulfill the over-all task. That's not to say that dogs within a breed cannot perform the tasks, just that the odds are in favor of the "big 3".


I completely agree with this for organizations with breeding programs- I think the big 3 are the way to go for them because they are very easy and predictable. But there are a ton of organizations that don't breed dogs, and if they aren't breeding, it's really about an equal crapshoot for what you can get into the program to train, and if someone is donating a trained dog, they put the dog through the public access tests necessary to start handler training anyway.



RabbleFox said:


> Agree. If you can afford to personally raise and train a dog or hire a trainer, you could try an breed you wanted. But I think DJ wants to donate her trained dog to a program. Programs use GSDs, labs, and Goldens because they work. It's proven. You don't see many other breeds because they just don't turn out as often. It's a "waste" of time and money to raise SD Dobermans/Huskies/APBT/Shelties/Insert breed here because the big three already fit the bill and are proven breeds that work. 3DogLady mentioned all their plus traits. It just adds up to being the best breeds for service dogs.
> 
> I'm sure there are individual dogs that also for this bill. I've seen/heard of Pitbull SD among other off breeds. Programs just don't work with or breed off breeds because they haven't the time or money to spend on breeds that just don't have the proper personalities for this type of work.
> 
> It's like training a poodle to be a hunting dog. I'm sure some poodles can do it. They are smart, after all. But you don't start a breeding program or picking up random poodles for hunting because most won't work out, no natter how much training you put them through.


This isn't correct. There are a ton of organizations that will take donated off breeds or select off breeds for training and placement. When they don't have to worry about the cost of breeding/housing long term, it isn't as big of a concern and people DO want other breeds. 



aiw said:


> SDs don't need to be dog park candidates, they just need to maintain composure around other dogs and ideally, ignore them completely. A lot of DA dogs can be trained to that.
> 
> EDIT: I agree that there's not necessarily a need for a breeding program. But is DJ thinking about starting one or getting a dog from one? I thought she was adopting an adult and going from there. In which case I think you could really easily deal with all the problems raised here by carefully selecting the right individual.
> 
> BSL is something to think about though. For renting and even moving to cities/states/provinces it could be a huge hassle for the handler.


I agree with the beginning of this, absolutely. And no, I would not be taking a dog from a breeding program or starting one, I would be selecting a rescue dog or rehome dog on my own and evaluating it on my own. 

As for BSL, it really isn't a concern, since federal law and access rights trump state laws the majority of the time. I haven't been able to find a case yet, anyway, where state law trumped federal in the case of service dogs. There have been a few where terrible things happened like a pit bull (SD) was seized by an officer and immediately euthanized at an uneducated area with BSL... but... with all of the "cop shoots dog" articles in the news now against restrained dogs, friendly dogs, puppies, and in the wrong home, I don't think having your service dog seized illegally and euthanized is more likely. I know of pit bull service dogs in Denver and Ontario, both known for their BSL across the countries.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> If it's dog aggressive, but can work nearby other dogs and function normally, it can still be used as a service dog if it doesn't have to live with another dog.


no no no NO NO please no.

This is not okay.

DJ- there is a LOT of reputation on the line here. Please don't mess up what the rest of us have been struggling to achieve for sixty or so years.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> no no no NO NO please no.
> 
> This is not okay.
> 
> DJ- there is a LOT of reputation on the line here. Please don't mess up what the rest of us have been struggling to achieve for sixty or so years.


There is no way that I plan to ever raise a dog aggressive dog as a service dog, just because I have to live with the dog too. But I know that they do exist and they do work, it is possible. Hell, Xeph has a dog that can't be around most males because he will start or end a fight. That is no different.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> There is no way that I plan to ever raise a dog aggressive dog as a service dog, just because I have to live with the dog too. But I know that they do exist and they do work, it is possible. Hell, Xeph has a dog that can't be around most males because he will start or end a fight. That is no different.


I dont know what Xeph has to do with this, especially since she has a dog that has successfully been working for years (and therefore must not be DA.)

Its not a matter of DO they work... its a matter of they SHOULD NOT BE WORKING.

lawd.

Seriously- on planet earth it is NOT OKAY to have a SD that is PA trained and DA.

(mostly for the reason that it is a DIRECT DANGER to ANY disabled handler and that is NOT okay.)


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Rescued said:


> I dont know what Xeph has to do with this, especially since she has a dog that has successfully been working for years (and therefore must not be DA.)
> 
> Its not a matter of DO they work... its a matter of they SHOULD NOT BE WORKING.
> 
> ...


I'm extremely confused as to how a dog must not be dog aggressive if it's been working for years? Xeph had to crate and rotate at many points in her own home to keep her service dog away from other dogs. 

You do recognize that a dog aggressive dog is not necessarily one that is unpredictable or out of control right? I can't understand how it would be any more of a danger to any handler than any other dog would be to it's handler. If it's desensitized to a stimuli that it used to react to, it's desensitized. Just like a lab being desensitized to a squirrel/cat running by in front of it. Doesn't mean if it had the opportunity and were free that it wouldn't kill it, but it knows it's working and has been taught to completely ignore that.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Hell, Xeph has a dog that can't be around most males because he will start or end a fight. That is no different.


Moo doesn't start fights, thank you very much. He reacts appropriately. But no, he is not a "dog social" dog. These dogs don't need to be dog social, but they do need to be dog neutral.

Strauss has been used by KNOWLEDGEABLE people to help with reactivity issues (this includes with young, stupid intact males) BECAUSE he is so stable and neutral. But that's ok, you can go after my dog if you like because you don't like what you're hearing


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

> I'm extremely confused as to how a dog must not be dog aggressive if it's been working for 6 years? Xeph had to crate and rotate at many points in her own home to keep her service dog away from other dogs.


You're missing the point here, this isn't about Xeph. She OT her dog and so if she wants to have a crazy OT dog, so be it. I have never met her dog so I can't tell you whether or not thats true. Have you met her dog in person or worked closely in person with her?



> You do recognize that a dog aggressive dog is not necessarily one that is unpredictable or out of control right? I can't understand how it would be any more of a danger to any handler than any other dog would be to it's handler. If it's desensitized to a stimuli that it used to react to, it's desensitized. Just like a lab being desensitized to a squirrel/cat running by in front of it. Doesn't mean if it had the opportunity and were free that it wouldn't kill it, but it knows it's working and has been taught to completely ignore that.


The other day when I was in the grocery store with Nug, someone brought their Chi in and held it. It got out of their arms and ran over to Nug, under his legs, and started barking and snarling at him.

Now, lets say that Nug is DA, and I have mobility and balance issues. What would have been the result of that scenario? (and no, the Chi was not allowed in the store.)

The dog is a danger to its handler because if it chooses to act on its KNOWN DA, the handler could be seriously hurt. And that is not okay.

Also... dogs with high prey drive aren't used. If a lab was that focused on killing a squirrel or a cat, he WILL be cut from the program, because that trait makes him unsuitable for work.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Moo doesn't start fights, thank you very much. He reacts appropriately. But no, he is not a "dog social" dog. These dogs don't need to be dog social, but they do need to be dog neutral.
> 
> Strauss has been used by KNOWLEDGEABLE people to help with reactivity issues (this includes with young, stupid intact males) BECAUSE he is so stable and neutral. But that's ok, you can go after my dog if you like because you don't like what you're hearing


I don't have a problem with what I'm hearing, because it doesn't have anything to do with me. I'm just confused because you've mentioned and complained many times about having to separate strauss in your house because he would not get along with your other dogs. But he obviously works just fine. Leads me to believe there is not that big of a concern/issue with having a dog like that work. 



Rescued said:


> You're missing the point here, this isn't about Xeph. She OT her dog and so if she wants to have a crazy OT dog, so be it. I have never met her dog so I can't tell you whether or not thats true. Have you met her dog in person or worked closely in person with her?


I have met her dog. I'm not saying he's crazy by any means, but she purposely did not let him meet other dogs because he "wouldn't get along" with them. And would be a "jack ass".



> The other day when I was in the grocery store with Nug, someone brought their Chi in and held it. It got out of their arms and ran over to Nug, under his legs, and started barking and snarling at him.
> 
> Now, lets say that Nug is DA, and I have mobility and balance issues. What would have been the result of that scenario? (and no, the Chi was not allowed in the store.)
> 
> The dog is a danger to its handler because if it chooses to act on its KNOWN DA, the handler could be seriously hurt. And that is not okay.


I feel like a lot of people have service dgos then, that really shouldn't be. It's kind of shocking. I'm sure there are some that could work through such an incident for a moment or two until they were harmed, but I know cat killing SDs, etc. exist and that's no more ok then dog aggression is in this case, since a squirrel or cat could run up at any point while you're out an about, too. Interesting topic, certainly. And like I said, I don't plan on dealing with these issues in a dog I would raise because I won't take the liability, but issues like these seem pretty common in the community, especially in handler trained dogs.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Now, lets say that Nug is DA, and I have mobility and balance issues. What would have been the result of that scenario? (and no, the Chi was not allowed in the store.)
> 
> The dog is a danger to its handler because if it chooses to act on its KNOWN DA, the handler could be seriously hurt. And that is not okay.


Completely agree. DA dogs can be taught to ignore other dogs but do you really want to push it? Like really, really push it? DA dogs might not be loose cannons but realistically you can't expect a dog to go against his ingrained, bred nature at that point. Its a potential danger. And its always there. You can't have a dog thats a potential danger all the time walking around with someone who cannot be expected to control said dog. If I have limited mobility and am using this dog to help me out, I'm not likely to be able to hold him back if his DA kicks in when a loose/leashed dog runs right up directly to his face. And that happens to me, as a regular old person just walking my dog down the street.

And then you must consider the fact that some dogs don't end up showing their DA until they are older. Older and placed in a home with their handler. It develops and there isn't a heck of a lot you can do about it.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You're right, I didn't let him meet other dogs. I rarely let any of my dogs meet any other dogs. I don't want fights, personalities clash. And on top of that, Strauss is my WORKING dog. I do not need him injured.

Dogs can rush his face, and he will most certainly growl, but I have a LOT of time to react (or even get him under further control before the other dog is upon us).

And here's another thing...Strauss is intact. Dogs from programs? Neutered and spayed, generally. So the issues aren't the same. I do have to be more careful with an intact dog, that's just common sense. But that's not a dog harboring deep seated dog aggression. It's just good general animal husbandry. Strauss can play with the bitches in the house, and he can hang out with Mahler. He CANNOT hang out with Loch. BOTH of them hate each other, so they're separated.

Not that I have to justify anything, but skip ahead to 3 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEBke0I1w-w

Strauss absolutely could have ripped into this Griffon if he wanted to (he is approximately 5 years old in this video), and instead he obeyed his command to platz.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

> I have met her dog. I'm not saying he's crazy by any means, but she purposely did not let him meet other dogs because he "wouldn't get along" with them. And would be a "jack ass".


Well... working dogs can't just play and meet every single dog they come across. I have a feeling that (if what you're saying is true) that there was a reason beyond "he is DA." Nug doesn't get to play with many dogs he meets, and not when he meets them for the first time.



> I feel like a lot of people have service dgos then, that really shouldn't be. It's kind of shocking. I'm sure there are some that could work through such an incident for a moment or two until they were harmed, but I know cat killing SDs, etc. exist and that's no more ok then dog aggression is in this case, since a squirrel or cat could run up at any point while you're out an about, too. Interesting topic, certainly. And like I said, I don't plan on dealing with these issues in a dog I would raise because I won't take the liability, *but issues like these seem pretty common in the community, especially in handler trained dogs.*


Um... what community are you referring to? These issues should not be prevalent, and they aren't with the dogs I've worked with.

Also... HUGE difference between dog selective and DA. HUGE. HUGE HUGE HUGE.

I don't know if you're maybe using the terms interchangeably?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Lots of dogs are jack asses, and she is /using her own dog/ and /is a dog person/. On top of that? A dog being a jack ass is not a dog who wants to kill every dog who crosses its path, and dog selective and dog aggressive aren't the same, which you should well know.

Neither of these things are going to apply if you donate a dog to be a SD. Furthermore? You don't know what's going to come up down the line, so you can't necessarily even train it. Are you going to keep the dogs until they're 8 to make sure they don't develop these issues? Because, you know, that's a common thing with pits.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Absolutely excellent post, Captain Jack 

Strauss is definitely "dog selective". Some males he is ok with, and some he is not. He is for sure dog dominant, and takes charge of situations. He is not a bully about it...doesn't need to be. But he is definitely the dog in the house the other dogs (except Loch) turn to.

Mahler still submissively licks him...and he'll be 2 in January.


----------



## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

Rescued explained dog neutral very well. There are more cases than I'd care to think about where SD's are rushed and in some cases attacked by pet dogs while working. A well trained service dog will not react and generally does not even have the inclination to react. This is more so due to selective breeding in addition to extensive exposure and training throughout their youth. Additionally, an SD reaction to another dog, regardless of who initiated, in most stores and other public venues may result in legally being asked to leave the premises. 

The other factor (brought up in this thread) is that Xeph is an experienced trainer/handler and therefore recognizes and addresses or otherwise avoids situations that will place her SD in that predicament. The same cannot be said for most SD owners. The organization I work with removes all DA or nervy dogs, including GSD's. I have yet to work with one that showed any reactive or aggressive inclinations.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Moo was once rushed in a store by a large service dog (program trained...handled by a small girl, was not impressed). You know what he did? He hackled, I turned him (quickly) and told him to lie down. He complied.

Service dogs *are still dogs*. Minimal reaction or no reaction is best. But it's a dog.


----------



## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Moo was once rushed in a store by a large service dog (program trained...handled by a small girl, was not impressed). You know what he did? He hackled, I turned him (quickly) and told him to lie down. He complied.
> 
> Service dogs *are still dogs*. Minimal reaction or no reaction is best. But it's a dog.



Understood, and I agree, dog's are still dogs. I was referencing you because of the exact scenario you mentioned above. In this situation your knowledge and experience made a difference in the outcome, which allows you more freedom in selecting the dog you will train/use as your SD. Not all owners are as experienced or able to react. I do think it's important, for the average SD owner to mitigate those types of circumstances through temperament selection where possible.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Oh, I was responding generally 3doglady  I understand what you were saying.

And as mentioned, there is a difference between dog aggressive (KILL IT DEAD) and dog reactive (Moo is not) and dog selective (I'll tolerate you, but that one over there SUCKS).


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

This is getting very interesting. So if Cookie ... and I say "If" Cookie turns out to be a mix of a bully breed and has DA ingrained .... I can basically not know until she is older. Then there is a possibility that re-homing is in order ... and a SD is out of the question with her?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Abbylynn said:


> This is getting very interesting. So if Cookie ... and I say "If" Cookie turns out to be a mix of a bully breed and has DA ingrained .... I can basically not know until she is older. Then there is a possibility that re-homing is in order ... and a SD is out of the question with her?


This is a dog that you are not planning on taking in public as a SD, you are a dog savvy owner, so not necessarily on that level. 

However, given that you have 3 other dogs, even without counting the one you sent to your sister's, I'd say that you'd have a very difficult go of using her for even around the house tasks. Because crate and rotate would be fairly difficult, as she'd need to be with you.

So, yes.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

CptJack said:


> This is a dog that you are not planning on taking in public as a SD, you are a dog savvy owner, so not necessarily on that level.
> 
> However, given that you have 3 other dogs, even without counting the one you sent to your sister's, I'd say that you'd have a very difficult go of using her for even around the house tasks. Because crate and rotate would be fairly difficult, as she'd need to be with you.
> 
> So, yes.


Thank you .... exactly what I would do too. I would not want to crate and rotate a SD. That would be silly. It would go against what I need.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Ye, my thoughts are dogs that are actively publicly representing "Service Dogs." If you want a crazy dog to help you around the house, no skin off my back. If you want a crazy DA dog to go to petsmart with you, whatever. 

For me, it becomes an issue when you are taking a dog in public and representing it _to the public_ as a Service Dog. Once you do that, you need to realize that your dog is an ambassador for ALL service dogs, and it should act as such, and _knowingly have the propensity_ to act as such.

This is where DA comes into play, for me. SD is dog selective when off lead, off duty, or otherwise not being actively represented as a SD? Sure, not all dogs (especially older working dogs) are going to love every dog they meet. The key here is the difference between _dog selective_ and _dog aggressive_, and whether or not the handler or trainer _knowingly_ is using a DA dog for work.

If you _know_ that your dog is dog aggressive, IMO, it should not be a SD and should be cut from public access work (or training) the minute you know.

If you _ know_ that your dog is dog selective, but are _reasonably sure_ (and/or have no reason to believe otherwise) that while in harness, the dog will continue to perform as expected despite the sudden presence of a dog, then I don't care.

Basically- It comes down to trainers being honest with themselves about what they know.

And therein lies my problem with pit bulls as SD. It is *known* that DA develops later in the breed, and (sometimes) develops regardless of prior socialization or training.

There are enough other breeds to work with that I see no reason why a pit bull should be used as a SD. Its about stacking the cards in your favor *to maximize the chances of producing a successful SD*, and to start off with a breed known for developing DA is doing just the opposite.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Rescued said:


> Ye, my thoughts are dogs that are actively publicly representing "Service Dogs." If you want a crazy dog to help you around the house, no skin off my back. If you want a crazy DA dog to go to petsmart with you, whatever.
> 
> For me, it becomes an issue when you are taking a dog in public and representing it _to the public_ as a Service Dog. Once you do that, you need to realize that your dog is an ambassador for ALL service dogs, and it should act as such, and _knowingly have the propensity_ to act as such.
> 
> This is where DA comes into play, for me. SD is dog selective when off lead, off duty, or otherwise not being actively represented as a SD? Sure, not all dogs (especially older working dogs) are going to love every dog they meet. The key here is the difference between _dog selective_ and _dog aggressive_, and whether or not the handler or trainer _knowingly_ is using a DA dog for work.



And this, for me, is ALL with owner trained, and owner handled. You hand a dog with a high likelyhood of becoming DA, or already is DA (even if trained to ignore, IMO), off to someone who needs a service dog, and you're just a jerk. Not only does it make Service Dogs look bad, it is freaking dangerous.

You can risk your OWN neck to make a statement. Don't make it risking someone else's.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

CptJack said:


> And this, for me, is ALL with owner trained, and owner handled. You hand a dog with a high likelyhood of becoming DA, or already is DA (even if trained to ignore, IMO), off to someone who needs a service dog, and you're just a jerk. Not only does it make Service Dogs look bad, it is freaking dangerous.
> 
> You can risk your OWN neck to make a statement. Don't make it risking someone else's.


And again- it is hard enough to produce a successful SD when using bloodlines that have been refined for that very purpose for 50-60 years.

As I mentioned to DJ, the first program I worked with (and stopped working with because I moved, they were and still are an excellent program) has upped their use of adolescent shelter dogs (they do not have a breeding program) and have produced a number of excellent dual working PTSD/Mobility SD.

They seek out retriever mixes, because these dogs have the highest success rate of the breeds and mixes available at shelters. Overall, labs and goldens (and mixes):

-Are rarely DS/DA
-Are biddable and food motivated
-Are not on banned breed lists
-Are one of the healthier breeds (when thinking in terms of propensity for immune disease and diversity in the genepool, especially)
-Are the appropriate size and weight for most mobility work
-Have few guarding tendencies, which is particularly important when placing dogs with developmentally disabled individuals or individuals that are not "dog people"


----------



## Melle (Aug 9, 2013)

I was following this thread at first, lost track for a few days, and am now catching back up. I've got a question addressing the topic of the last couple pages.

I am 17 and have been cleared and encouraged by my psychologist to train my one year old pup as my psychiatric service dog. She is a shelter dog, no lingering background issues, extremely biddable, very friendly, dog friendly (except for one that she had a bad experience with), eager to please, attentive, and attached to me at the hip. At the shelter when I adopted her at 10 months, they simply said "Possibly a pit bull mix" which is about 98% of the dogs in my city. Extremely common, most are good with each other, and it's general assumption around here that they're very watered down and usually nowhere near the temperament of the true APBT. So she has no pedigree, no one knows anything but that she's a mutt, and everyone I met has had the best guess of BC/Pit.

Because of her possible "pit" genetics, and I use pit generally as in short-haired, square-headed, medium sized, and strong (she also has a tapered muzzle and slim body like a BC) would she be viewed as unacceptable to train as a SD?


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Melle said:


> I was following this thread at first, lost track for a few days, and am now catching back up. I've got a question addressing the topic of the last couple pages.
> 
> I am 17 and have been cleared and encouraged by my psychologist to train my one year old pup as my psychiatric service dog. She is a shelter dog, no lingering background issues, extremely biddable, very friendly, dog friendly (except for one that she had a bad experience with), eager to please, attentive, and attached to me at the hip. At the shelter when I adopted her at 10 months, they simply said "Possibly a pit bull mix" which is about 98% of the dogs in my city. Extremely common, most are good with each other, and it's general assumption around here that they're very watered down and usually nowhere near the temperament of the true APBT. So she has no pedigree, no one knows anything but that she's a mutt, and everyone I met has had the best guess of BC/Pit.
> 
> Because of her possible "pit" genetics, and I use pit generally as in short-haired, square-headed, medium sized, and strong (she also has a tapered muzzle and slim body like a BC) would she be viewed as unacceptable to train as a SD?


There is no "law" against pit bulls being SD. I *personally* do not think that pit bulls and dogs that are easily classified as pit bull mixes should be SD, but that is my personal opinion AND is hard to "quantify" anyway because of the number of dogs that get labeled as "pit bulls."

So that being said- it is up to you as an individual. Keep in mind that dogs that do not look like a typical lab/golden/GSD WILL be questioned about public access far more often, just because those are the breeds that people have come to expect as SD. My first SDIT was a black and white BC mix, and we got questioned all the time. I very rarely get questioned now that I'm using labs/goldens.

So- beyond concerns about whether or not your individual dog is suited for work, keep in mind that should you choose to use her, you need to be emotionally stable enough to be able to answer prying rude questions about her legitimacy wherever you go, because you will be asked them.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Lots of dogs are jack asses, and she is /using her own dog/ and /is a dog person/. On top of that? A dog being a jack ass is not a dog who wants to kill every dog who crosses its path, and dog selective and dog aggressive aren't the same, which you should well know.
> 
> Neither of these things are going to apply if you donate a dog to be a SD. Furthermore? You don't know what's going to come up down the line, so you can't necessarily even train it. Are you going to keep the dogs until they're 8 to make sure they don't develop these issues? Because, you know, that's a common thing with pits.


No one has any idea what may come up down the line and there's no way to predict that in ANY breed. Goldens, Labs, etc. can develop genetic health issues later down the road just the same as a pit bull could develop dog aggression. More likely than ANYTHING, dog selectivity comes up down the line in pit bulls, not completely aggression.



Rescued said:


> Um... what community are you referring to? These issues should not be prevalent, and they aren't with the dogs I've worked with.
> 
> Also... HUGE difference between dog selective and DA. HUGE. HUGE HUGE HUGE.
> 
> I don't know if you're maybe using the terms interchangeably?


I'm talking about the service dog community. It seems like a lot of dogs I hear about are dog aggressive/selective, kill small animals, etc. Probably less than 25%... but it didn't seem like that big of an issue to me because of this. Reactivity is another story. I am using dog aggression/selectivity interchangeably because there is really no difference to me. It doesn't matter if that dog will only want to kill one out of every five dogs he sees, it's still aggression that could hurt the handler as you put it. But I don't think having these issues means that they can't ignore stimuli when they're working, assuming a dog isn't actually attacking them. 



CptJack said:


> And this, for me, is ALL with owner trained, and owner handled. You hand a dog with a high likelyhood of becoming DA, or already is DA (even if trained to ignore, IMO), off to someone who needs a service dog, and you're just a jerk. Not only does it make Service Dogs look bad, it is freaking dangerous.
> 
> You can risk your OWN neck to make a statement. Don't make it risking someone else's.


I do find it very interesting that you and Rescued seem to make such a point about the high likelihood of dog aggression developing later in pit bulls. Yes, it's possible since there is already an increased chance of dog aggression, but it's really not common. More likely the dog will become tolerant, and then selective as it ages. Dog selectivity and a bully type play style is the most common in the breed, from what I have heard and seen. Of pit bulls that I actually meet or work with, maybe 1 or 2 out of 10 are actually completely aggressive. A couple may be selective, a few tolerant, and a few friendly. Of ALL ages.



Melle said:


> I was following this thread at first, lost track for a few days, and am now catching back up. I've got a question addressing the topic of the last couple pages.
> 
> I am 17 and have been cleared and encouraged by my psychologist to train my one year old pup as my psychiatric service dog. She is a shelter dog, no lingering background issues, extremely biddable, very friendly, dog friendly (except for one that she had a bad experience with), eager to please, attentive, and attached to me at the hip. At the shelter when I adopted her at 10 months, they simply said "Possibly a pit bull mix" which is about 98% of the dogs in my city. Extremely common, most are good with each other, and it's general assumption around here that they're very watered down and usually nowhere near the temperament of the true APBT. So she has no pedigree, no one knows anything but that she's a mutt, and everyone I met has had the best guess of BC/Pit.
> 
> Because of her possible "pit" genetics, and I use pit generally as in short-haired, square-headed, medium sized, and strong (she also has a tapered muzzle and slim body like a BC) would she be viewed as unacceptable to train as a SD?


Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I have been working and/or living with pit bulls for my entire life. There are many reputable organizations out there that only train shelter pit bulls for service dog placement, so it is certainly do-able and I don't think there should be so much fear in it.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Retiring because of DA is a way bigger deal than retiring because their hips give out. 1/10 or 2/10 is kind of high probability to me for DA. But that's just my opinion.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> Retiring because of DA is a way bigger deal than retiring because their hips give out. 1/10 or 2/10 is kind of high probability to me for DA. But that's just my opinion.


Why is that a bigger deal to you? Retiring because of an issue impeding work is retiring because of an issue. 10 or 20% is a high probability to you?


----------



## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Why is that a bigger deal to you? Retiring because of an issue impeding work is retiring because of an issue.


I'm going to preface this by saying that I know nothing about training a SD.

However, I would find DA to be a bigger deal than hips giving out for reasons already stated. DA suddenly cropping up is a danger to the handler and the image of SDs everywhere. Hips giving out is not.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I am using dog aggression/selectivity interchangeably because there is really no difference to me.


But they aren't interchangeable. That's the problem.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> There are many reputable organizations out there that only train shelter pit bulls for service dog placement.


Just out of curiosity, what are their names (of the 'many' organizations)? I haven't heard of any, which is why I ask?


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

> More likely than ANYTHING, dog selectivity comes up down the line in pit bulls, not completely aggression.





> I am using dog aggression/selectivity interchangeably because there is really no difference to me.





> Yes, it's possible since there is already an increased chance of dog aggression, but it's really not common. More likely the dog will become tolerant, and then selective as it ages.


You gots to pick one...



DJEtzel said:


> Why is that a bigger deal to you? Retiring because of an issue impeding work is retiring because of an issue. 10 or 20% is a high probability to you?


This IS a big deal because we need to maximize the odds that a dog we work with will be able to be a successful worker. Bu choosing breeds where that 10-20% is MUCH lower, we are increasing the odds (and easily, with no effort!) that the dog will make it.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

KodiBarracuda said:


> Just out of curiosity, what are their names (of the 'many' organizations)? I haven't heard of any, which is why I ask?


I too am curious! I wasn't aware of any that specifically used pit bulls.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I Googled "pit bulls as PTSD service dogs" and found Pit Bulls 4 Patriots and Pit Bulls for PTSD right away. I didn't look any further but there are at least a few organizations like that.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I Googled "pit bulls as PTSD service dogs" and found Pit Bulls 4 Patriots and Pit Bulls for PTSD right away. I didn't look any further but there are at least a few organizations like that.


Im assuming I'm just missing somethign really obvious, but I couldn't find any information on any placed/working dogs with either of those organizations...


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Rescued said:


> Im assuming I'm just missing somethign really obvious, but I couldn't find any information on any placed/working dogs with either of those organizations...


I came up with this article ....

http://animalfarmfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/pit-bull-service-dogs/


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Abbylynn said:


> I came up with this article ....
> 
> http://animalfarmfoundation.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/pit-bull-service-dogs/


Good article! The teams were just recently placed within the last year or two (unless I read something wrong), so I'll have to keep following up and see how they're doing. I have a lot of respect for AFF.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Rescued said:


> Good article! The teams were just recently placed within the last year or two (unless I read something wrong), so I'll have to keep following up and see how they're doing. I have a lot of respect for AFF.


There is a ton of good info on this ..... and if my Cookie Crumb does turn out to have some Bully Breed in there ... so be it if she can fit the bill and be an ambassador to the Bully mixes. 
Man is she smart! I hope she works out the way I am trying to train her.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Josefina would make a great service dog for someone (sorry not giving her up though xD ) we have had our issues in the past (most of them ending with me wanting to tear my hair out) but I have found her "weakness" in training and she has blossomed like a flower. if I ask her to get something and bring it to me she will. or if I ask her to put something in a certain place she will.

I kind of want to teach her to open and close doors (with the rope thing like they show service dogs doing) but on the other hand she is a crazy smart, mischievous ACD so ... maybe not LOL.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Josefina would make a great service dog for someone (sorry not giving her up though xD ) we have had our issues in the past (most of them ending with me wanting to tear my hair out) but I have found her "weakness" in training and she has blossomed like a flower. if I ask her to get something and bring it to me she will. or if I ask her to put something in a certain place she will.
> 
> I kind of want to teach her to open and close doors (with the rope thing like they show service dogs doing) but on the other hand she is a crazy smart, mischievous ACD so ... maybe not LOL.


Hahaha! Best be careful of the door thing. I have one who opens gates just from observation ... and another who opens cabinet doors just from observation. I also have one who slides or jumps over the gate to get where they want to go. :/ The other ... well ... she just likes to eat furniture. :/

I tried the cupboard thing yesterday ... almost got a bite on it. I also tried the towel on the fridge door ... and she took the bait ... but not strong enough to open it. Lol!  I have been doing a lot of experimenting just to see the capabilities there may be.

EDIT: In big news .... Cookie learned to take my socks off last night! Repeat performances too .... now just to go about it so it is not a game.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Animal Farm Foundation in New York has placed three pit bulls now and has many more up and coming dogs in training, currently.

Chako rescue has done some placement of Pit Bull service dogs. 

Pit Bulls for Patriots has placed numerous dogs, and has indeed taken one out of service work for same sex aggression. Like my thinking after being educated, it seems any aggression is not good. Whether that is selective or not. Especially with a powerful dog and a disabled handler. I'm glad this program realized the aggression may be a problem and didn't have a probelm taking her out of work. I wonder, though, if it would be more "acceptable" to keep a selective dog in a working home if the handler is not physically disabled (such as PTSD?) where the liklihood of controlling the animal was more easy to guage? Just thinking out loud here. 

Handi-dogs in Tuscon uses primarily pit bulls, but some other breeds as well in their placement program and they've placed dozens. 

There were a few more I had found that used a lot of pit bulls, but not primarily that I will have to find again. Villalobos has started a SD program with their dogs as well that they are launching in early 2014!


----------



## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Animal Farm Foundation in New York has placed three pit bulls now and has many more up and coming dogs in training, currently.
> 
> Chako rescue has done some placement of Pit Bull service dogs.
> 
> ...


Pit bull or no, as a bystander and dog lover, I find the idea of an aggressive or selective service dog with public access to be a bit repellant. For one thing, placing service animals (or any dogs) in a stressful (to that individual animal) situation where they are likely to be aggressive or fearful strikes me as an unfriendly thing to do to the service animal. They didn't ask for this job, why should they be pushed into uncomfortable situations on the daily? There's no reason to use a dog like that for public access service. That's the whole point of temperament testing. It's not good for the handler, and in my opinion, it's a bit cruel to the dog. Let's say you were extremely afraid of public speaking or heights. Sure, people can learn strategies to deal with it, or take medication to handle the panic, but the fear remains. And then let's say you were assigned a job as a trial lawyer or window washer, with no option to quit, ever, no matter how upset you got. It would be silly to force a person to do a job they were so thoroughly unsuited to, right? I don't see why it's so different for dogs. 

And then, of course, there's the flip side. As so many people have pointed out, any sign of aggression from a public access service animal sets the whole community back. Not to mention the damage to the handler.


----------



## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> Animal Farm Foundation in New York has placed three pit bulls now and has many more up and coming dogs in training, currently.
> 
> Chako rescue has done some placement of Pit Bull service dogs.
> 
> Pit Bulls for Patriots has placed numerous dogs, and has indeed taken one out of service work for same sex aggression. Like my thinking after being educated, it seems any aggression is not good. Whether that is selective or not. Especially with a powerful dog and a disabled handler. I'm glad this program realized the aggression may be a problem and didn't have a probelm taking her out of work. I wonder, though, if it would be more "acceptable" to keep a selective dog in a working home if the handler is not physically disabled (such as PTSD?) where the liklihood of controlling the animal was more easy to guage? Just thinking out loud here.


I do not see the need for a selective dog to be utilized as a service dog. Is there a reason you think this is a good idea?

As for a selective dog being used at home, a working dog at home is like any other well trained dog. The distinction is service dog vs dog working at home. A service dog is understood to be of sound temperament and allowed to perform specific trained tasks in public. A dog trained to perform tasks at home, is a dog trained to perform tasks at home. 

Would the hypothetical person utilizing the dog understand that their dog is not suitable for guide work in public, and therefore not take him/her out in public as a service dog? 

Hamandeggs - Good point and well said.


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

3doglady said:


> I do not see the need for a selective dog to be utilized as a service dog. Is there a reason you think this is a good idea?


My understanding of dog selective is that they are picky about the dogs they interact well with. Whereas dog aggression is an aggressive response to all dogs. Neither service dogs nor aggressive dogs are my area so if that's wrong someone might correct me.

Since service dogs won't be interacting with any dogs at all while working why would this be a problem? They're simply expected to ignore, I would think a dog with selectivity instead of aggression could handle that quite easily. Perhaps more easily than a more dog-social animal.

I can understand not having dogs with outright aggression working but wouldn't the ideal candidate have a cool reaction to other dogs? Don't they just need to be dog-tolerant and not dog-social?


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> I wonder, though, if it would be more "acceptable" to keep a selective dog in a working home if the handler is not physically disabled (such as PTSD?) where the liklihood of controlling the animal was more easy to guage? Just thinking out loud here.


I would say no to this. Just because I can handle a strong dog doesn't mean I really want to. I don't think the handler should have to be "correcting" his or her dog constantly. I also don't think they should have to worry about dog selectivity.

Plus, what if for any reason they dropped the leash? Or the SD had a failed recall and managed to attack the other dog he decided he really, really didn't like?

If the dog is coming out of a placement or breeding program, it needs to be as "bomb proof" as possible. Owner trained dogs and handlers I suppose could do the DS thing. As long as the dog never, never acted upon his impulse.

I just don't think its nice to hand a dog over to someone who might even be a "dog person" and expect them to handle a DS dog.

AIW: Ignoring the other dog is kind of the goal. But even in public access buildings, you could be approached by another dog. Or if you are out on the street at a public event. I don't think its safe to push a dog like that. Or to ask a handler to have to look out for that. SD Training Facility: "This dog doesn't like some dogs!" Handler: *Now eyes must peeled for all and any dogs because my dog might have a reaction to it* If you bump into a random dog, its far better to have a friendly dog than a DS dog, in my opinion.


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I guess the distinction I'm trying to parse is how selectivity expresses itself. My understanding was that dog selective dogs differ from DA dogs in that instead of a generalized aggressive response it manifests as difficulty actually interacting with specific dogs. 

As interaction with dogs is not a requirement of being a service dog and is in fact counterproductive I don't see how that is necessarily a problem. I agree that dogs who can't be trusted to ignore other dogs would be inappropriate candidates, but it seems to me that dogs who are not friendly to other dogs but will ignore them are fine. I would think SDs don't need to even like other dogs, just ignore them.

Perhaps I'm wrong about those definitions though.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You're not wrong.

My best friend's retired service dog does not like Strauss. And Strauss does not like that dog. But they have worked in close proximity to each other several times, and have slept next to each other underneath restaurant tables. Overall, both would rather the other not exist, but they can work together without problems.

My friend's new SD is a GSD bitch. Strauss thinks she's super sexy. Still ignores her when they start working, though.


----------



## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

aiw said:


> I guess the distinction I'm trying to parse is how selectivity expresses itself. My understanding was that dog selective dogs differ from DA dogs in that instead of a generalized aggressive response it manifests as difficulty actually interacting with specific dogs.
> 
> As interaction with dogs is not a requirement of being a service dog and is in fact counterproductive I don't see how that is necessarily a problem. I agree that dogs who can't be trusted to ignore other dogs would be inappropriate candidates, but it seems to me that dogs who are not friendly to other dogs but will ignore them are fine. I would think SDs don't need to even like other dogs, just ignore them.


I agree, the distinction is how they chose to express their dislike of another dog and how the trainer identifies behavior as dog selectivity. My concern is a DS being either misdefined or misidentified and consequently an issue. I guess I'm more cautious and conservative.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm not entirely sure how to feel about the aggression thing, really. I'm certainly not saying one or the other is good or bad... 

My thought is that if the dog is aggressive completely or selectively, it doesn't really matter as long as they can maintain composure (like Strauss) and work through dogs being around. Acting out would be completely unacceptable, IMO, but I know of many selective and mostly aggressive dogs that can work in close proximity to other dogs just fine and ignore them, even dogs rushing them for some moments. I would never deal with this in a dog or place one like it, personally, but I don't think I see a huge issue with it happening as long as the dogs are behaving themselves, either. Aggression and reactivity do not go hand in hand.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Xeph said:


> You're not wrong.
> 
> My best friend's retired service dog does not like Strauss. And Strauss does not like that dog. But they have worked in close proximity to each other several times, and have slept next to each other underneath restaurant tables. Overall, both would rather the other not exist, but they can work together without problems.
> 
> My friend's new SD is a GSD bitch. Strauss thinks she's super sexy. Still ignores her when they start working, though.


This is the way Sam is with most other dogs. He's just not interested in interacting with them, except for a select few that he wants to play with, usually around his same size and energy level. He is nowhere near being trained as a SD, but DA is also an issue for ScH dogs and I've actually been told I have it a bit easier than some people with very "doggy" (social, dog-friendly) dogs since mine by default prefers to ignore most other dogs. I do find I have less work to do on that while other handlers with pups spend a lot of time just getting their dogs to ignore others.

I think the difference is that you can train a dog that is dog selective that their job is more important than their dislike for another dog, but a dog that is dog aggressive, is going to be much harder to train to put the job above his fear of other dogs in general. With dog selectivity, maybe it's more like you're dealing with a person who is an introvert versus with dog aggression, you're dealing with someone who has a phobia of people in general. An introvert may be able to put their personal feelings aside to go out and do what needs to be done for work, etc, but a person with a phobia may be so overwhelmed by their feelings that they can't function in a role that requires them to be with others.


----------

