# Teaching a "Release" after a HIGHLY rewarding activity?



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

So, I'm betting this is an issue for some people in other dog sports as well, so I thought I'd toss this out there to see how others have handled it. 

I'm having a problem with Sam, but it's a good problem to have. In tracking, he is SO highly motivated by the act of tracking itself that when we reach the end of the track...he just keeps trying to track!  I love that enthusiasm, but I also need to teach a "break" command so that he knows that when we're done with it we're done. My first attempts have been with a favorite toy, which is the standard way that I use "break" in obedience. He gets to stop the behavior and we tug with his favorite toy and that seems to work really well in obedience. However, in obedience, the behavior that he's holding is hardly ever as reinforcing as playing tug. When I try that in tracking, he completely ignores the toy and keeps his nose to the ground, trying to track MORE.

I asked the more experienced handlers and they had a few suggestions. One was to physically (gently) move him off the track and away with lots of pets and praise until his concentration is broken enough that he might play. Another, less supported idea was to give a higher value food reward at the end, keeping it the same each time, but the concern there is that he will speed through the track more to reach it. There was also some discussion that, over time, he'll learn the break even if he won't go for the toy now and that working with him more in protection will increase the value of the toy as well.

Any ideas? Like I said, having a tracking dog that doesn't want to stop tracking is a good problem to have, so I'm not worrying about it too much at this stage!


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

How about a Jack Pot at the end of the track. There is one thing my dogs love more than searching itself and that is a ball. So at the end of every search they get to keep the ball. 
Over time they learned to calm themselves down and to preserve their energy. Meanwhile Indra has an off switch right after every search. 

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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> How about a Jack Pot at the end of the track. There is one thing my dogs love more than searching itself and that is a ball. So at the end of every search they get to keep the ball.
> Over time they learned to calm themselves down and to preserve their energy. Meanwhile Indra has an off switch right after every search.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That's exactly what I've tried. The problem is, no jackpot I have to give (in this case, a favorite tug or ball) can compete for him with tracking itself. We considered trying to do a treat reward with a higher value than the treats in the track, but then the concern is that he'll try to go through too fast. We've gotten him to slow down and be more methodical by reducing the rate of reward in the track as well as making the track longer and he's doing really well going deep into each step.

My issue is, at least right now, there really is NOTHING my dog loves more than tracking itself.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it just takes some time for dogs to realize that when you're done, you're done. I always cue the end of a search and jackpot the end then that's that. They used to keep searching but now they realize there's no more hides.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I think it just takes some time for dogs to realize that when you're done, you're done. I always cue the end of a search and jackpot the end then that's that. They used to keep searching but now they realize there's no more hides.


That's good to know. Hopefully this is one of those problems that will just work itself out. 

At least I know he's enjoying doing it. He gets SO excited whenever he knows we're going tracking and it's one of our favorite things to do together. I love seeing him so engaged and happy with something, particularly since right now obedience and protection feel like more work.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

It is awesome that he is so into it. 

I agree. He will learn to regulate himself. 

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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

This is Watson's issue in nosework. He will hunt until he falls over if he thinks there is something to find. I think it just takes time and consistency. After enough practices where I said "all done" at the end of a search, he learned that we really were all done. At first it had to be on leash so I could lead him from the area, but now he responds off leash pretty consistently. I use a different cue, "move on", when is the cue to move on to the next hide, but continue searching.

So basically, I found that physically moving him away from the search, while giving a consistent cue about what I wanted, was the way to go. It just took time and experience on his part to know what I meant. Now when I say "all done" he relaxes and willingly moves away from the search area, because he knows the activity is over for the moment. When I bring him back to the search area he is as excited as ever.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm trying to picture this. So if, at the end of a track, when you release him he goes right back to tracking? Well, you did actually release him and imo at that point it's 'do whatever you want buddy'. I mean, that IS the true essence of a release, right? And if he wants to go back to tracking, for nothing, that's entirely his choice as I see it. Therefore you might want to consider changing the timing or the placement of the release.

At the end of the track I'd immediately put him into heel position, adequately reward, heel him a sufficient distance away from the track, again rewarding throughout, and THEN release him to a tug, toy, or treat in casual front. If nothing else it would at least be a good lesson in impulse control / obedience, and maybe prevent his mind from getting too deeply mired in track track and only track.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I'm trying to picture this. So if, at the end of a track, when you release him he goes right back to tracking? Well, you did actually release him and imo at that point it's 'do whatever you want buddy'. I mean, that IS the true essence of a release, right? And if he wants to go back to tracking, for nothing, that's entirely his choice as I see it. Therefore you might want to consider changing the timing or the placement of the release.
> 
> At the end of the track I'd immediately put him into heel position, adequately reward, heel him a sufficient distance away from the track, again rewarding throughout, and THEN release him to a tug, toy, or treat in casual front. If nothing else it would at least be a good lesson in impulse control / obedience, and maybe prevent his mind from getting too deeply mired in track track and only track.


In trial, he can't continue tracking after we've reached the end. Complicating things is I'm not allowed to use obedience commands until we have left the tracking field, either. Once we finish, I think I can get him into a heel after a certain point, but it's worth looking into. I'm also working on him wanting to track when we're doing heeling as well. LOL! His nose just wants to be down there on the ground, no matter what!


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

How long will it be until your first trial? 

The point of it all is to get his mind off the track. Say you have a year and a half, maybe two, before you can actually trial him, by then you won't need a command or obedience because the repeating behavior has become muscle memory and a ritual. The key is about being consistent with it to turn it into a ritual. 



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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> How long will it be until your first trial?
> 
> The point of it all is to get his mind off the track. Say you have a year and a half, maybe two, before you can actually trial him, by then you won't need a command or obedience because the repeating behavior has become muscle memory and a ritual. The key is about being consistent with it to turn it into a ritual.
> 
> ...


I'm betting by then this all will have worked itself out.  He's just 7 months old and I may not even be ready for the BH until he's 2, depending on his maturity.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Yeah, he is young. 

For how long have you tracked him now? 

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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> Yeah, he is young.
> 
> For how long have you tracked him now?
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


For about 2-3 months. He's taken much more to tracking than obedience or protection, although we are also working on those. Of the other pups around his age in the club, he seems to enjoy it more and be more focused on it even with distractions. The other pups, though, are miles ahead of him in protection, where he is easily distracted and less driven. I'm thinking a lot of it has to do with his breed mix.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

If all else fails you can always go the FH route. 

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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> If all else fails you can always go the FH route.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Definitely!  I have also considered SAR as a possibility, but I'm not sure we have the time. There is definitely a need up here for more SAR teams and he loves tracking! Sometimes, even our Schutzhund clubs get asked to step in and try to help when an SAR team is not available to respond.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> Definitely!  I have also considered SAR as a possibility, but I'm not sure we have the time. There is definitely a need up here for more SAR teams and he loves tracking! Sometimes, even our Schutzhund clubs get asked to step in and try to help when an SAR team is not available to respond.


I would definitely recommend AKC tracking and K9 Nosework as well if you don't continue Sch long term. Both would fit in with his ability/drive quite well. You could probably do nosework on the side, as a snowy day activity in the house, as I don't think it would conflict with the Sch tracking.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I would definitely recommend AKC tracking and K9 Nosework as well if you don't continue Sch long term. Both would fit in with his ability/drive quite well. You could probably do nosework on the side, as a snowy day activity in the house, as I don't think it would conflict with the Sch tracking.


You can compete for tracking and obedience titles in ScH even if you don't do protection. The FH is a tracking title only and there are obedience only titles as well. So, I think regardless, we'll go for the BH and see where we go from there. I'm definitely not ruling out some AKC competitions down the road, though!  At a minimum, I'd love for him to have his AKC CGC to match his BH.


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

When ending a track it is up to you as a handler to give him a black and white signal that work is over. Depending on the dog this signal is different, you can throw a ball and go all play mode as reward, or feed a jackpot or heel him away under obedience to the car. Key is to let the dog know very clearly that work is now over.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Agree in time he will learn when work is over..... the only suggestion to add is to change his equipment... drop the tracking harness and go to the soft collar if that is what you use normally away from tracking.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Agree in time he will learn when work is over..... the only suggestion to add is to change his equipment... drop the tracking harness and go to the soft collar if that is what you use normally away from tracking.


This is good advice. I know someone who used to do AKC tracking and she was always taught to not even put on the tracking harness until it was time to work (it could be hanging loosely around the dog's neck, but without being clipped in). Once work was over, move to a collar and unclip or take the harness off.

My own version of that is to use the front ring of his harness when we're waiting for our turn at nosework, and only clip it onto the back when it's time to search.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

We normally use his flat collar for tracking and his fur saver for getting on and off the field. The past couple of times, I've used his fur saver for both (dead ring for tracking) because we can clip two leashes to it, which helps with what we're working on.

I asked on a forum with more ScH handlers and the consensus was that he'll figure this out on his own with more practice. Several of them had dogs that did the same thing and eventually they all came to realize that once the track is done, it's all done.  They basically said to just keep doing what we've been doing and that it's a good sign that he's still wanting more as we end. They'd be more concerned if we'd been doing this for years and he was still confused as to the end.


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