# To the Person at Target with the Chi in her purse



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Why is your dog in your purse?
Why is your dog growling at my service dog, who is doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out?
Why is your dog now barking and snarling at my service dog, who is still doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out?

Do you think that you have a right to go gallivanting about with your ill mannered pet wherever you like?
Do you consider the detriment it puts myself and my service dog in when you engage in such irresponsible actions?
Do you consider, at all, in any way, shape, or form, that just because your dog fits in your purse, that it is not ok for him to be in the store?

Do you realize that what you're doing is illegal?
Do you realize that you could be heavily penalized by fines underneath the law?
Do you realize that what you're doing is really just plain stupid and obnoxious?

To the person at Target with the Chi in her purse.

*Leave your freaking pet AT HOME*


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## kerplunk105 (Mar 5, 2008)

Did this happen to you? 

I was at a mall a few years back with one of my SDIT. This lady was there with a Yorkie in one of those roller bags. The thing was barking the entire time. My dog just laid there and ignored it.

Eventually she left. I cant stand people that think they are allowed to bring pets everywhere just because they are small enough.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

they need to hire me an The Bolo out as canine bouncers lmfao...we'll be a service dog/handler team for all the people with service dogs.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Did this happen to you?


Yesterday. I was soooooooooooooooo po'd.

Strauss did as he always does...stayed where he was and did the head tilt that says "Why is that dog growling at me?" before I told him to put his head down (and he did).

What I don't understand is why the employees don't say anything. I told the guy that checked me out that it was legal for him to ask her if her dog was a service animal, and if she said no, he could politely ask her to remove her dog from the building.

CANNOT WAIT to start training the new puppy >.< The sooner she learns to ignore such things, the better. It'll be a trial, but well worth the effort.


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

People who carry their dogs around like accessories should not be allowed to own dogs!

This just makes me want to scream at them “DOGS ARE NOT ACCESSORIES”!!


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Wow.. I'm sorry.. that must have really sucked 

I can't stand people that think just because they have a small dog they can bring it anywhere they want to.. ESPECIALLY if the dog is like the one you described.

I would have complained to the manager about the woman.. and the employee for not asking her to remove the dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

But I love my pookins.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

At my Target, I assure you they would be asked to leave the store. I've kicked so many people out with dogs, it's not even funny. It annoys me to no end. 

I have to say I love seeing the puppy raisers come in and walk around with their puppies. I almost always get tears in my eyes and a lump in my throat. I always make sure to thank them for what they do, and I always get that "you have a third eye" look. All well.

Feel free to report that store to Corp. 1.800.440.0680 and voice your concern. Stores won't change unless the guest calls the 1-800 number and tells them.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Thanks, Darkmoon 

I'm still getting used to things around here. I get stopped EVERY TIME I go to Walmart with Strauss because "Only certain types of dogs are allowed in the store". I'm heading to the manager the next time it occurs >.<

The Target employees were very friendly and helpful, and the person that checked me out didn't understand that he COULD ask her to remove her dog. He knows now xD


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Where did she mention seeing eye dogs?


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

Kina_A said:


> People who carry their dogs around like accessories should not be allowed to own dogs!
> 
> This just makes me want to scream at them “DOGS ARE NOT ACCESSORIES”!!


A well-behaved, quiet, don't-even-notice-it's-there accessory would be one thing. I'm sure the owner knows what a PITA her dog is but apparently does not care. 

I hate it when people carry their dogs around in their purses...that is just soooo Paris...soooo 5 years ago and sooo FREAKING STOOPID! 

And, life is hard enough on people who need service animals...you don't need inconsiderate, annoying people making it worse. Call them! 

Did the person even apologize to you?


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

kerplunk105 said:


> Just a pet peeve of mine..they arent Seeing Eye Dogs unless they are from The Seeing Eye in NJ..which since you are in Michigan, they most likely arent. They would just be called Guide Dogs.


I never said they were seeing eye dogs, I said they were puppy raisers. Service dogs in training that they raise and then have to give up. I've seen them with I think 4 puppies now over the years. Very nice folks.

Xeph, I'd still let Corp. know about it. Tell them what you've told us, give the store praise but say "This is what happened with dogs in the store" ect. Or call and speak to the LOD and let them know. Either OR will do.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Did the person even apologize to you?


No. Instead she spoke to my dog, giggled at hers, and made a comment that my dog could eat hers >.<

ETA: Just called the number you gave me, Darkmoon. They were very pleasant and helpful ^_^


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## jinnyretr0 (Oct 13, 2009)

What a cruddy experience! Sucks that you and strauss had to deal with somebody's stupidity. That is something I loathe about living out here in southern california, everyone who has a small dog carries their dog into every store imaginable! 
Free the purse dogs!


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Xeph said:


> ETA: Just called the number you gave me, Darkmoon. They were very pleasant and helpful ^_^


I'm glad.

Honestly what they will do is send out a reminder that ONLY service dogs are allowed and what to follow when non-service dogs are in the store, and have the LOD talk about it at huddles as a reminder on what to do. BUT It can only happen when a Guest calls and complains. Most LODs (Leader on Duty) care, but I know in my store communication isn't the greatest within the leadership of the store. The email that is sent from HQ will go to all ETL (Executive Team Leads) and STL's (Store Team Leads) so Communication will be executed.

I really am sorry that happened to you and the employees had no clue what to do (Note: Cashiers are the least trained in what to do when something happens in the store. Most are only trained as cashier and never do floor work).

Good luck, and good job on calling!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Sucks that you and strauss had to deal with somebody's stupidity.


It's a daily occurence, LMAO!


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

But Strauss wasn't bothered by it, right?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> But Strauss wasn't bothered by it, right?


No, but that isn't the point.


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## kerplunk105 (Mar 5, 2008)

Xeph said:


> No. Instead she spoke to my dog, giggled at hers, and made a comment that my dog could eat hers >.<
> 
> ETA: Just called the number you gave me, Darkmoon. They were very pleasant and helpful ^_^


OMG. If she *had *said something to me, I wouldn't have been able to _not _say something 110% rude to her.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

People like that make it more difficult for those who actually need their dogs with them in the store. I have seen some pretty darned wierd things in my time. This includes a woman walking around walmart with her shitzu in the top part where you would put a kid. 

I would have been ticked off too. JUST because the dog fits into a purse doesn't mean you have the right to bring it into the store like a wallet.

I also want to say that I have NO PROBLEM with people that carry their dogs around like that, I just don't see the need for the animal to be in a Target. 

Xeph, you are a better woman that I am. I would have told her just where she could shove that dog and purse! lol


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph, you are a better woman that I am. I would have told her just where she could shove that dog and purse! lol


It's tempting...it really is. But I always try to remember that I, too, can make it harder for other teams.

Does my temper get the better of me sometimes? Of course. I'm a person. But most of the time I manage to keep myself in check (I know, hard to believe xD).


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> It's tempting...it really is. But I always try to remember that I, too, can make it harder for other teams.
> 
> Does my temper get the better of me sometimes? Of course. I'm a person. But most of the time I manage to keep myself in check (I know, hard to believe xD).


LOL. 

There is a difference when you make it harder for other teams though, Strauss has a right to be there, and you need him there. Obviously that chick had no right to have that annoying little dog in the store. That is what ticks me off.


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## Taz Monkey (Sep 2, 2007)

when I fotered a little maltese/poodle mix puppy 2 years ago for about 3 months, I joined a maltese message board. People with small dogs are nuts! (present company with small dogs not included...unless you do what I'm about to tell you). So this one lady was so paranoid about leaving her dog anywhere that she PUT THE DOG IN A CARRIER THAT LOOKED LIKE A PURSE AND TOOK HER IN RED LOBSTER! And did it in every restaurant. Put the dog in the carrier on the floor beside her chair and fed it bits of food. Now, not only is this stupid, but she was in a restaurant for God's sake. If you can't go anywhere without your dog, you have an issue.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Taz Monkey said:


> when I fotered a little maltese/poodle mix puppy 2 years ago for about 3 months, I joined a maltese message board. People with small dogs are nuts! (present company with small dogs not included...unless you do what I'm about to tell you). So this one lady was so paranoid about leaving her dog anywhere that she PUT THE DOG IN A CARRIER THAT LOOKED LIKE A PURSE AND TOOK HER IN RED LOBSTER! And did it in every restaurant. Put the dog in the carrier on the floor beside her chair and fed it bits of food. Now, not only is this stupid, but she was in a restaurant for God's sake. If you can't go anywhere without your dog, you have an issue.


I'm sorry, but this made me laugh ... just the visual of some crazy woman sneaking food to a purse under the table just cracks me up! 

Um ... I have to confess that I LOVE my dog sooo much and I WANT to take her everywhere I go ... I really do. And I do take her as many places as I can. Unfortunately, she has to wait in the car for me much of the time, but she doesn't mind. She just loves to get to go. (And it's only for quick runs inside the store, with the windows cracked, and ice water available, so no flaming please). I honestly would LOVE to take her to Target, Walmart, etc., but I CAN'T because it's AGAINST THE LAW! So we settle for Petco, Petsmart, the Dog Park and those few places she is actually permitted to go. Sometimes we simply take a car ride because she loves it THAT much! 

But, my dog is a Rottweiler mix and wouldn't fit in a purse anyway, and she is horrible on a leash so it would be difficult to be covert in a store with her.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Why is your dog in your purse?
> Why is your dog growling at my service dog, who is doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out?
> Why is your dog now barking and snarling at my service dog, who is still doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out?
> 
> ...


Ever have a faker dog attack yours?

My wife had a little mix dog come out of the cart that a lady was pushing in WalMart, and it went after her Guide. After I had tried to distract it and keep it away, all the while telling her to get her mutt under control, I had had enough and gave it a good punt, right into a display. The lady wailed like she had been shot and crumpled to the floor. (She never tried to stop her mongrel from what it was doing---she was a mental nutcase who thought she could bring her "doctor prescribed" emotional support dog wherever she went. And, no, handlers of ESA's do not have public access rights with them.) No, the little terror was not hurt, but it stayed away after it got booted. The public safety officers (who were called by the nutcase) promptly explained the law regarding service dogs to her, and then cited her for not having her dog on a leash, and told her to keep it out of the public venue.
All in all, a good day at the end.


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## Maddie'sMomma (Mar 5, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Thanks, Darkmoon
> 
> I'm still getting used to things around here. I get stopped EVERY TIME I go to Walmart with Strauss because "Only certain types of dogs are allowed in the store". I'm heading to the manager the next time it occurs >.<


That is complete bullshit on the Wal-mart side. My hubby is a manager @ Wal-mart, and I know for a fact that service dogs are allowed, regardless of breed, etc. Please do talk to the manager or call 1-800-Walmart next time that happens. 

It was funny, he actually asked me to not be one of those people that brings their dog into the store, all they are allowed to do is ask the customer if it's a service dog, and if they say yes, they can't do anything about it, unless the dog is being a nuisance. A few years ago, you used to be able to ask them to see the papers stating that it was service dog, but now they can't.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Ever have a faker dog attack yours?


Not yet, but I'm sure it's coming >.<



> A few years ago, you used to be able to ask them to see the papers stating that it was service dog, but now they can't.


And that's the way I like it and want to keep it!

I know service dogs are allowed, but people seem to think that the only service dogs that exist are guide dogs, and I am clearly not blind (Strauss is mobility).



> all they are allowed to do is ask the customer if it's a service dog


Not true. They can ask what the dog does to mitigate the person's disability.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

The only thing that is rediculous is THAT person with the chihuahua and most of the comments in this thread. I don't know why I'm even posting in it but some of these comments are getting under my skin. I understand what you all are saying and I understand that your venting. That's okay. What's NOT okay is groupng EVERYBODY by these sterotypes. *PUT YOUR FEET IN SOMEBODY ELSES SHOES. * 
I will answer each one of these questions for you all in a second because I know how these people are thinking.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> I don't know why I'm even posting in it but some of these comments are getting under my skin. I understand what you all are saying and I understand that your venting. That's okay. What's NOT okay is groupng EVERYBODY by these sterotypes. *PUT YOUR FEET IN SOMEBODY ELSES SHOES. *


 um, what the HECK are you talking about???


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## Kumacho (Mar 7, 2008)

I'm sorry, that was no Chi in my purse. That was Goober (see below picture):















Oh wait! He wouldn't fit in a purse and if he did I sure wouldn't bring him into any stores.

I see stupid people. Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they are stupid.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> um, what the HECK are you talking about???


The comments at the beginning of this thread....

I BRING MY DOG IN PURSES ANYWHERE SHE WANTS.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Taz Monkey said:


> when I fotered a little maltese/poodle mix puppy 2 years ago for about 3 months, I joined a maltese message board. People with small dogs are nuts! (present company with small dogs not included...unless you do what I'm about to tell you). So this one lady was so paranoid about leaving her dog anywhere that she PUT THE DOG IN A CARRIER THAT LOOKED LIKE A PURSE AND TOOK HER IN RED LOBSTER! And did it in every restaurant. Put the dog in the carrier on the floor beside her chair and fed it bits of food. Now, not only is this stupid, but she was in a restaurant for God's sake. If you can't go anywhere without your dog, you have an issue.


I'll be honest, I can't do any toy dog message boards. I've tried. I just can't deal with toy dog people. lol


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I don't see any issue taking a small dog in a purse in a store as long as it is well behaved. It's a way that I help socialize my dogs. I took Honey Bun (my new Shih Tzu puppy) in a purse to Walmart the other day and you never would have known she was there. She just laid inside the carrier and was quiet as a mouse. 

To the person who said carrying your dog in a purse is a fashion statement and "so 5 years ago"- I wasn't aware that I was doing something outdated. Since apparently I'm only carrying my dog (hidden in a bag) as a fashion statement, I guess I'll have to keep up with the trends better.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Darla Giselle said:


> The comments at the beginning of this thread....
> 
> I BRING MY DOG IN PURSES *ANYWHERE SHE WANTS.*



You're kidding me, right?

I really don't appreciate people bringing their dogs into stores with food or restaurants where I am going to be eating. That is plain RUDE. 

People with service dogs are different and they need their animals with them for their own safety. You don't need to bring Gigi into places like that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

luvntzus said:


> I don't see any issue taking a small dog in a purse in a store as long as it is well behaved. It's a way that I help socialize my dogs. I took Honey Bun (my new Shih Tzu puppy) in a purse to Walmart the other day and you never would have known she was there. She just laid inside the carrier and was quiet as a mouse.
> 
> To the person who said carrying your dog in a purse is a fashion statement and "so 5 years ago"- I wasn't aware that I was doing something outdated. Since apparently I'm only carrying my dog (hidden in a bag) as a fashion statement, I guess I'll have to keep up with the trends better.


I have no problems with taking dogs (even in purses although you'd never coerce mine to go in one) places _where dogs are allowed_, but Target, etc generally do not allow dogs other than service dogs there. That is the problem Xeph has and even though I have small dogs I totally agree. I do bring mine to as many dog friendly places as much as possible but they're places where all dogs are allowed regardless of size. I even took them to a dog friendly restaurant with my friend's bc the other day (we sat on the patio with the other dog people). But just because a dog is small doesn't mean it should be able to go everywhere with you.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I don't see any issue taking a small dog in a purse in a store as long as it is well behaved.


So you have no problem committing a federal offense?



> I have no problems with taking dogs (even in purses although you'd never coerce mine to go in one) places where dogs are allowed, but Target, etc generally do not allow dogs other than service dogs there. That is the problem Xeph has and even though I have small dogs I totally agree.


Bingo.



> People with service dogs are different and they need their animals with them for their own safety. You don't need to bring Gigi into places like that.


Points for BooLette, too



> I BRING MY DOG IN PURSES ANYWHERE SHE WANTS.


You mean anywhere YOU want. Your dog doesn't give two whits where. She's a dog. She doesn't have an opinion. She only knows it's cool to be out of the house.



> *PUT YOUR FEET IN SOMEBODY ELSES SHOES.*


Yes, please do put your feet in somebody else's shoes, so the next time you illegally bring your dog in somewhere, you understand how you've made it harder for myself and my dog to legally enter the premises.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> So you have no problem committing a federal offense?


Apparently not. I don't bring my dogs to restaurants or anywhere with food, but that's about it. My dog isn't harming anyone while contained in a purse and not making any noise. I definitely agree with the European approach to dog ownership.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

BooLette said:


> I really don't appreciate people bringing their dogs into stores with food or restaurants where I am going to be eating. That is plain RUDE.


But you eat & drink at home, right? 
Here I am, having a different opinion again ... I guess if the dog is kept confined somehow (in purse of carrier, whatever) & isnt causing a problem, then I can't see a reason to bitch. IF the facility does not allow dogs, then the facility should by all means enforce such rules.


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> The comments at the beginning of this thread....
> 
> I BRING MY DOG IN PURSES ANYWHERE SHE WANTS.


Maybe you should stop. Taking dogs to places that are not dog friendly ranges from rude to illegal.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I definitely agree with the European approach to dog ownership.


Then go to Europe (where, by the way, their dogs are generally much better trained than ours). Here in America what you're doing is *illegal* and it makes it *more difficult* for myself and my service dog (legally, a piece of medical equipment) to get where we need to go.

Why should my life be made even MORE difficult because you can't leave your pet AT HOME. He will not wither away and die if he doesn't go to Walmart, but I *could* be seriously hurt if I cannot gain access to places with my service dog, and I gotta tell ya, I AM NOT about to go back to my life of dependency when I've worked so hard to become independent again just because a person has to take their little dog with them everywhere!


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Why is your dog in your purse? *Do YOU want o be carrying them? LOL Neither do I. I need my hands free.*
Why is your dog growling at my service dog, who is doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out? Why is your dog now barking and snarling at my service dog, who is still doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out? *Isn't that a good thing? Service dogs can encounter everything while on the job. That's a good distraction for a training dog.*  

Do you think that you have a right to go gallivanting about with your ill mannered pet wherever you like? *I am against this as well. But what if they were on vacation? No other option. *

Do you consider the detriment it puts myself and my service dog in when you engage in such irresponsible actions? *Aren't service dogs trained to ignore other dogs? I have met one that actually cared Gigi was there or not. *

Do you consider, at all, in any way, shape, or form, that just because your dog fits in your purse, that it is not ok for him to be in the store?* It's okay, if you ask the manager/employors. It is there store. *

Do you realize that what you're doing is illegal? *It's only "illegal" if its a place that carriers food products. And heck, many places allow Gigi to come if she is "contained" in something, ie. a carrier or stroller. So I don't think it's entirely illegal. It's "subjective". * 

Do you realize that you could be heavily penalized by fines underneath the law? *Nope, not us AT ALL. Only the store that allows us to come in. NOT US. THEM.*

Do you realize that what you're doing is really just plain stupid and obnoxious? *Why, because I can take my tiny pet place and people EXCEPT ? I mean, I'm not a fan of children or crying loud babies, but Lord knows I still go to deal with them in stores. 
Please, tiny dogs can be stepped on by children and killed, the world believes they are no "threat" with them even if they are growling their little heads off. You don't see them in the news for biting or killing. If Gigi bit somebody, you would need a bandaide... LOL * 

ETA: *Leave your freaking pet AT HOME* The main reason people get small dogs is because you can travel and take them places. Portability is on their side. A member on my malt forum, recently got a puppy about two months ago and she has already traveled across the US and on two other trips via plane. Another member is going to PR on vacation with her malt. Gigi is going to Paris with me next summer. She's already traveled the entire east coast and I've only had her a little over a year. You don't see other "larger" dogs on planes, do you? Ask them why. Same goes for stores. There is NO home for them to stay at home in.

US is really far behind in bring your dog places, but hopefully its evolving. Many countries in Europe and Asia(especially Japan, they LOVE dogs there) allow dogs to all public places, especially restaurants and zoos, grocery stores ect. Members on my maltese forum from Germany bring their maltese everywhere! And in Japan, dogs of all sizes are dresses up and go everyplace. I can show you picture of Siberian Huskies in doggie clothes. It's awsome. LOL


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

DJsMom said:


> But you eat & drink at home, right?
> Here I am, having a different opinion again ... I guess if the dog is kept confined somehow (in purse of carrier, whatever) & isnt causing a problem, then I can't see a reason to bitch. IF the facility does not allow dogs, then the facility should by all means enforce such rules.


While I understand your general train of thought here DJsMom, the bottom line is that it's against the law and the health code to bring a dog into a public restaurant. Whether we eat & drink at home with our dogs or our neighbors' dogs or our friend's dogs, etc., is totally beside the point. 

Yes, I eat at home, and my dog sheds. There is dog hair all over my house and in my kitchen too because she is allowed in there. Often, I find a dog hair in my tea glass. Doesn't bother me at all. I can't say I would appreciate it too much if I was in Red Lobster, however, and I got my cheddar bay biscuits and there was a dog hair right on top, though.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Then go to Europe (where, by the way, their dogs are generally much better trained than ours). Here in America what you're doing is *illegal* and it makes it *more difficult* for myself and my service dog (legally, a piece of medical equipment) to get where we need to go.
> 
> Why should my life be made even MORE difficult because you can't leave your pet AT HOME. He will not wither away and die if he doesn't go to Walmart, but I *could* be seriously hurt if I cannot gain access to places with my service dog, and I gotta tell ya, I AM NOT about to go back to my life of dependency when I've worked so hard to become independent again just because a person has to take their little dog with them everywhere!


My dog is not bothering anyone when she is hidden in a purse, quiet as a mouse. If no one knows she's there, then how is that making your life any harder? Also, they can't refuse you access with a service dog as long as the service dog isn't the one causing problems.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I really have to say I don't understand the reasoning that just because your dog is small then you can take it anywhere you want. I really just don't. Why do you even want to do that? Things like this is why toy dogs and toy dog owners are looked at the way we are- as viewing our dogs as an accessory and being above the rules other dogs must follow. If we want to show people how wonderful our dogs are as dogs we need to follow the rules every other dog owner must follow.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't know if you realized this, but all those questions were rhetorical. And these repsonses REALLY rub me the wrong way. Like I'm seriously offended, and I don't offend easily.



> Isn't that a good thing? Service dogs can encounter everything while on the job. That's a good distraction for a training dog.


That DOES NOT make it acceptable, and the fact that you seem to be making a joke of this makes me absolutely LIVID. My dog will encounter a lot, I am not stupid. That *does not make it acceptable or funny*.


> I am against this as well. But what if they were on vacation? No other option.


It's called crating in the hotel, boarding, or hiring a dog sitter.



> Aren't service dogs trained to ignore other dogs? I have met one that actually cared Gigi was there or not.


Out the yang, but they are still dogs, and yes, distractions happen. That DOES NOT justify you *illegally bringing your dog in the store*!



> Nope, not us AT ALL. Only the store that allows us to come in. NOT US. THEM.


Very much not true. If you knowingly enter a store with the understanding they only allow service animals, *you can be charged and fined*!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also the biggest thing for me is how hard it makes people who legitimately have a toy or small sized service dog. Most people don't even believe that toy dogs can be a service dog and it's mainly because of the view people have that they're not 'real' dogs and are just accessories to their owners.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Laur, how'd you get so smart?!


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> My dog is not bothering anyone when she is hidden in a purse, quiet as a mouse. If no one knows she's there, then how is that making your life any harder? Also, they can't refuse you access with a service dog as long as the service dog isn't the one causing problems.


Your dog isn't a service dog, hence your dog does not have right of access. 

The fact that your dog might not be causing problems is not the issue. The issue is legality and it is illegal to take your dog most public places, regardless if it is barking or bothering anyone.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Xeph said:


> Laur, how'd you get so smart?!


Lol! Xeph called me smart!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Lol! Xeph called me smart!


You're the common sense fairy <3


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> Why is your dog in your purse? *Do YOU want o be carrying them? LOL Neither do I. I need my hands free.*
> Why is your dog growling at my service dog, who is doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out? Why is your dog now barking and snarling at my service dog, who is still doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out? *Isn't that a good thing? Service dogs can encounter everything while on the job. That's a good distraction for a training dog.*


No it's not. Training means it's under controlled situations. The average joe blow and their dog is the exact opposite of controlled situations. Our service dogs have enough work to do without you giving them MORE work because you're too selfish to see past yourself.



> Do you think that you have a right to go gallivanting about with your ill mannered pet wherever you like? *I am against this as well. But what if they were on vacation? No other option. *


Too bad, so sad.



> Do you consider the detriment it puts myself and my service dog in when you engage in such irresponsible actions? *Aren't service dogs trained to ignore other dogs? I have met one that actually cared Gigi was there or not. *


Good service dogs are trained to do so. But dogs are not robots, they have bad days. My service dog might not care, but your selfish actions might get my dog hurt.



> Do you consider, at all, in any way, shape, or form, that just because your dog fits in your purse, that it is not ok for him to be in the store?* It's okay, if you ask the manager/employors. It is there store. *


Absolutely wrong. It is not the manager's decision. It is the LAW.



> Do you realize that what you're doing is illegal? *It's only "illegal" if its a place that carriers food products. And heck, many places allow Gigi to come if she is "contained" in something, ie. a carrier or stroller. So I don't think it's entirely illegal. It's "subjective". *


No it's not subjective. It's illegal.



> Do you realize that you could be heavily penalized by fines underneath the law? *Nope, not us AT ALL. Only the store that allows us to come in. NOT US. THEM.*


Wrong.



> Do you realize that what you're doing is really just plain stupid and obnoxious? *Why, because I can take my tiny pet place and people EXCEPT ? I mean, I'm not a fan of children or crying loud babies, but Lord knows I still go to deal with them in stores.
> Please, tiny dogs can be stepped on by children and killed, the world believes they are no "threat" with them even if they are growling their little heads off. You don't see them in the news for biting or killing. If Gigi bit somebody, you would need a bandaide... LOL *


You are incomprehensibly selfish.



> *Leave your freaking pet AT HOME* The main reason people get small dogs is because you can travel and take them places. Portability is on their side. A member on my malt forum, recently got a puppy about two months ago and she has already traveled across the US and on two other trips via plane. Another member is going to PR on vacation with her malt. Gigi is going to Paris with me next summer. She's already traveled the entire east coast and I've only had her a little over a year. You don't see other "larger" dogs on planes, do you? Ask them why. Same goes for stores. There is NO home for them to stay at home in.


Too bad so sad. It is the LAW.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I don't know if you realized this, but all those questions were rhetorical. And these repsonses REALLY rub me the wrong way. Like I'm seriously offended, and I don't offend easily.
> 
> 
> That DOES NOT make it acceptable, and the fact that you seem to be making a joke of this makes me absolutely LIVID. My dog will encounter a lot, I am not stupid. That *does not make it acceptable or funny*.
> ...


Oh sorry, I was not making a joke of you.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

infiniti said:


> Your dog isn't a service dog, hence your dog does not have right of access.
> 
> The fact that your dog might not be causing problems is not the issue. The issue is legality and it is illegal to take your dog most public places, regardless if it is barking or bothering anyone.


I've already stated my opinion and stand by it.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

infiniti said:


> While I understand your general train of thought here DJsMom, the bottom line is that it's against the law and the health code to bring a dog into a public restaurant. Whether we eat & drink at home with our dogs or our neighbors' dogs or our friend's dogs, etc., is totally beside the point.
> 
> Yes, I eat at home, and my dog sheds. There is dog hair all over my house and in my kitchen too because she is allowed in there. Often, I find a dog hair in my tea glass. Doesn't bother me at all. I can't say I would appreciate it too much if I was in Red Lobster, however, and I got my cheddar bay biscuits and there was a dog hair right on top, though.


Thank you for not flaming me for my opinion. I am aware that public restaurants do NOT allow dogs (other than service dogs) & I do understand the reasoning. And I know that a lot of the chain stores do have eaterys in them now too. I guess I've just never looked or noticed that it was a law that dogs arent allowed in Target stores.
And personally, I wouldn't take my dog in my purse or a dog carrier - DJ would NOT make a good purse dog by any means, but it's very common to see people carrying their little dogs in carriers around here & it's just never bothered me.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I've already stated my opinion and stand by it.


*I don't care* what your *opinion* is. *You're breaking the* freaking *law*. Thanks for being selfish though, so little Honey Bun can get out to see the wonders of Walmart.

I'm already being detained at Walmart because of people like you! It's obnoxious, embarrassing, and SHOULDN'T HAPPEN TO ME because YOU have to take your dog everywhere!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Xeph said:


> You're the common sense fairy <3


Do I get a tutu?


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> *I don't care* what your *opinion* is. *You're breaking the* freaking *law*. Thanks for being selfish though so little Honey Bun can get out to see the wonders of Walmart.
> 
> I'm already being detained at Walmart because of people like you! It's obnoxious, embarrassing, and SHOULDN'T HAPPEN TO ME because YOU have to take your dog everywhere!


Settle down or you're going to have a stroke. Honey Bun has never and will never make anyone's life with a service dog worse, because again, no one knows that she is there.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

And a wand. And a bag of fairy dust. It's not for sprinkling though. It's to whomp stupid people on the head.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> Why is your dog in your purse? *Do YOU want o be carrying them? LOL Neither do I. I need my hands free.*
> Why is your dog growling at my service dog, who is doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out? Why is your dog now barking and snarling at my service dog, who is still doing as he should and laying quietly while I check out? *Isn't that a good thing? Service dogs can encounter everything while on the job. That's a good distraction for a training dog.*
> 
> Do you think that you have a right to go gallivanting about with your ill mannered pet wherever you like? *I am against this as well. But what if they were on vacation? No other option. *
> ...




Darla, honey ... I understand that you adore Gigi and all, and I know she's precious and adorable, and I know you are quite young ... but you surely have to understand the differences between legal and illegal, service dogs and companion dogs, right and wrong, etc.

It is against the law and is a health code violation in most stores and restaurants to bring a dog that is not a service dog, whether or not it is small or large, visible or concealed, well-behaved or poorly behaved. If it's not a service animal, it's simply not allowed. 

As for other countries vs. the US, we may very well be behind the times as far as dog acceptance, but be that as it may, the laws are what they are and whether we like them or not, we must obey them.

I have a great respect for service dogs, and a great respect for those who utilize them. I absolutely will not undermine that respect by demanding that my companion dog, whom I love with all my heart and soul, be allowed to go shopping at Target or dining at Red Lobster with me simply for the hell of it. It absolutely diminishes and totally disrespects service dogs, IMO.

I strongly suggest you take a look at this situation from an entirely different perspective, dear.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Honey Bun has never and will never make anyone's life with a service dog worse, because again, no one knows that she is there.


Glad to know you're ok with committing a federal offense. I do hope one of these days an SD handler notices, and calls you on it.

I have worked *extremely* hard with Mouse to get where we are. And I have to go above and beyond "normal" dog ownership because he not only has to be absolute perfect in manner while we're in public, he has to be impeccably groomed. He is still bathed every other month, but he is brushed frequently (particularly before he is put in harness and we go into stores). He always smells pleasant (thank you Cowboy Magic), his nails are done, his teeth and ears are clean...he's beyond presentable.

For people with small dogs to think it is ok to break the law just because their dogs are small and "aren't bothering anybody" does not make it ok. YOU may not think you're having an impact on my dog and I entering places, but *you most certainly are*! You just don't know because it is not affecting you. You are the cause, I suffer the effect.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

DJsMom said:


> Thank you for not flaming me for my opinion. I am aware that public restaurants do NOT allow dogs (other than service dogs) & I do understand the reasoning. And I know that a lot of the chain stores do have eaterys in them now too. I guess I've just never looked or noticed that it was a law that dogs arent allowed in Target stores.
> And personally, I wouldn't take my dog in my purse or a dog carrier - DJ would NOT make a good purse dog by any means, but it's very common to see people carrying their little dogs in carriers around here & it's just never bothered me.


I'm sure it's never bothered you.

Who it DOES bother, however, is the thousands of disabled people who are harassed, stalked, and scowled at, detained, interrupted, and scorned, because of their legitimate dogs. Because of people like wittle Gigi's owner.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

RBark said:


> Good service dogs are trained to do so. But dogs are not robots, they have bad days. My service dog might not care, but your selfish actions might get my dog hurt.
> 
> *Why would it get your dog hurt? *
> 
> ...


10 charactersss


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

luvntzus said:


> Settle down or you're going to have a stroke. Honey Bun has never and will never make anyone's life with a service dog worse, because again, no one knows that she is there.


Yes he will, because did you know that because of people like you, there are people who are trying to take away the rights of the disabled, and make them wear badges and mandatory ID's to be treated like a sub-class human? In order to prevent people like you from entering stores?

Yes, you are making people's lives worse. You might not see the consequences, but I certainly do. Xeph certainly does. Smithcat most definitely does.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> And a wand. And a bag of fairy dust. It's not for sprinkling though. It's to whomp stupid people on the head.


Yay! 



DJsMom said:


> Thank you for not flaming me for my opinion. I am aware that public restaurants do NOT allow dogs (other than service dogs) & I do understand the reasoning. And I know that a lot of the chain stores do have eaterys in them now too. I guess I've just never looked or noticed that it was a law that dogs arent allowed in Target stores.
> And personally, I wouldn't take my dog in my purse or a dog carrier - DJ would NOT make a good purse dog by any means, but it's very common to see people carrying their little dogs in carriers around here & it's just never bothered me.


I can see why it would initially be seen as not a big deal. The biggest deal though is the hassles it can present to those with legitimate service dogs, especially with toy and small sized ones. I know someone personally with a real service dog that is a toy breed and she is hassled so much because no one believes her dog is a real service dog and it's because people bring in their pets (many times ill behaved pets). 

I love to take my pet dogs with me everywhere possible but that stops when it starts becoming illegal to bring them places. There are plenty of ways to socialize dogs legally and without potentially harming someone else.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

RBark said:


> I'm sure it's never bothered you.
> 
> Who it DOES bother, however, is the thousands of disabled people who are harassed, stalked, and scowled at, detained, interrupted, and scorned, because of their legitimate dogs.


I wouldn't wish that on anyone, let alone someone who is disabled. You're right, I had never thought of it from that point of view until pointed out in this thread.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> Good service dogs are trained to do so. But dogs are not robots, they have bad days. My service dog might not care, but your selfish actions might get my dog hurt.
> 
> Why would it get your dog hurt?


Because it makes people think that it's OK to bring little dogs into stores. Then they bring their little dogs that might not be as well socialized as your dogs. Then those less socialized dogs attack my service dog, who might be traumatized by the ordeal and no longer be able to function as a service dog, requiring me to spend YEARS waiting for my next dog.



> Absolutely wrong. It is not the manager's decision. It is the LAW.
> 
> Actually this is what one store employer has told me. I always ask them first at the door before I bring them in.


Store employers know nothing. Look up the ADA. If I ever see you in a store, you darn well better hide your dog, because I'll be calling the cops.



> You are incomprehensibly selfish.
> 
> Why do you think so. Yea, I guess should stop going to rescue events and helping dogs get adopted. As in the words of you, "too bad so sad" for those poor doggies.
> You don't know me, so don't judge. Only God can judge me truthfully.


I don't care what you do for rescue dogs. I do that stuff too. I don't know you, I do, however, know you bring dogs into stores. Selfish.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

infiniti said:


> Darla, honey ... I understand that you adore Gigi and all, and I know she's precious and adorable, and I know you are quite young ... but you surely have to understand the differences between legal and illegal, service dogs and companion dogs, right and wrong, etc.
> 
> It is against the law and is a health code violation in most stores and restaurants to bring a dog that is not a service dog, whether or not it is small or large, visible or concealed, well-behaved or poorly behaved. If it's not a service animal, it's simply not allowed.
> 
> ...


I like your post. Its so hard to tell people's tones over the internet but I love your tone.  I don't know who you are but I respect you and your opinions, unlike some people *cough*RBark*cough! LOL 

But, I do not bring Gigi to places that carry food. I guess I should've said that to begin with. That is illegal. Only the grocery store for a second to get something, but that's ONLY because they said it was okay to do so if she was confined. But all restaurants allow dogs if they have an outside eating area. So that works.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

RBark said:


> Because it makes people think that it's OK to bring little dogs into stores. Then they bring their little dogs that might not be as well socialized as your dogs. Then those less socialized dogs attack my service dog, who might be traumatized by the ordeal and no longer be able to function as a service dog, requiring me to spend YEARS waiting for my next dog.


A dog contained in a purse shouldn't be able to get to your service dog. I know they will smell it, but I would be more surprized if they even see it.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

DJsMom said:


> I wouldn't wish that on anyone, let alone someone who is disabled. You're right, I had never thought of it from that point of view until pointed out in this thread.


Thank you for understanding.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You're right, I had never thought of it from that point of view until pointed out in this thread.


Many don't.

I've been followed around the mall (back home, haven't experienced the malls here yet) by security guards for over 30 minutes before they finally asked me "Is that a service dog?" I pretended not to notice them, but it makes for an extremely unpleasant and unnerving shopping experience.

I just want to browse and buy like everybody else. If you need to ask, ask, but don't follow me around like I'm going to stuff things in my dog's saddle bags, or like I'm out and about with my big lug for the hell of it.

Many people on this board have met Strauss. They will all tell you that he is generally not transport friendly. Way too much work to fake SD work with a dog of Strauss's size. Seriously. Cut it out.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> A dog contained in a purse shouldn't be able to get to your service dog. I know they will smell it, but I would be more surprized if they even see it.


*Shouldn't* but they do, it has happened countless times.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Okay, I don't understand why tiny almost hidden from view dogs would be a problem to the disable? Why would people not think the seeing eye dog would be legitament? Does the "Service Dog: Do Not Pet" vest not give it away? Or is it that there is a huge, quiet, well-behaved dog just walking around the store not give it away enough? I don't see small dogs in purses with those vest on ever, so how can they(meaning the government) get those two type of dogs confused? Please help me understand here.



RBark said:


> *Shouldn't* but they do, it has happened countless times.


That's crazy. All my small dog forums(yorkie, maltese, ect) I have never heard of that before...


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> I like your post. Its so hard to tell people's tones over the internet but I love your tone.  I don't know who you are but I respect you and your opinions, unlike some people *cough*RBark*cough! LOL
> 
> But, I do not bring Gigi to places that carry food. I guess I should've said that to begin with. That is illegal. Only the grocery store for a second to get something, but that's ONLY because they said it was okay to do so if she was confined. But all restaurants allow dogs if they have an outside eating area. So that works.




Well, I appreciate that you respect my opinions, but I gotta tell you that RBark has made very valid and very true points in his posts, hon. You may not have liked his tone, but his message was absolutely right on.

As I have said, Bella loves to ride in the car, and she loves to go places with me, and I would love to take her everywhere I go, but I simply can't due to legal and health limitations. 

The more we blur boundary lines, the more chaos ensues, the more people who shouldn't be inconvenienced are, and those who should be are not. We are already creating a topsy-turvy world; there's no need to be a contributor to making it worse, in my opinion.

We don't always have to agree with laws, but it's always best to try to look at them from all angles and perspectives to gain a better understanding and respect for them and make it a little easier to abide by them, which we definitely must do.

We all have to live on this earth together, and it's my opinion that we should all do our part, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, to make it as pleasant as we possibly can.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Why would people not think the seeing eye dog would be legitament?


Because not everybody uses a guide dog! I am sighted, but have a service dog, as is RBark.

RBark had a hearing dog, I have a mobility dog, other people have seizure alert dogs, dogs that pick things up for them, guides that are not for helping the blind, but the disoriented.

Just because "no one can see your dog" does not make it any more right or any less illegal >.<

Maybe people that didn't read it before should read this now:
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/69982-life-my-service-dog.html

And it's a slippery slope....the big dog people see the little dog people with their pets in the store, and so they also think it is acceptable (Yes, it has and does happen, and it has happened while I've been in the store with my legit SD).


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Darla Giselle said:


> Okay, I don't understand why tiny almost hidden from view dogs would be a problem to the disable? Why would people not think the seeing eye dog would be legitament? Does the "Service Dog: Do Not Pet" vest not give it away? Or is it that there is a huge, quiet, well-behaved dog just walking around the store not give it away enough? I don't see small dogs in purses with those vest on ever, so how can they(meaning the government) get those two type of dogs confused? Please help me understand here.


Service dogs don't have to wear vests nor do they have to be large breeds. There is no standard vest for service dogs and they are not legally required to wear one. Service dogs don't have to be seeing eye dogs either, they perform a variety of tasks from being a guide dog to being a hearing dog, a dog to help mobility, seizure alert, I could go on and on. Even though most service dogs are larger breeds there are still quite a number of small and toy dogs being used as a variety of service dogs. I know Mia's breeder has produced I think 3 papillons that are service dogs performing various tasks for their owners. Papillons are mainly used as hearing alert dogs and seizure alert dogs. My friend's service dog is a Chinese Crested which is a far cry from the usual lab or shepherd you think of when you think of a service dog.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> Okay, I don't understand why tiny almost hidden from view dogs would be a problem to the disable? Why would people not think the seeing eye dog would be legitament? Does the "Service Dog: Do Not Pet" vest not give it away? Or is it that there is a huge, quiet, well-behaved dog just walking around the store not give it away enough? I don't see small dogs in purses with those vest on ever, so how can they(meaning the government) get those two type of dogs confused? Please help me understand here.


There is no law requiring service dogs to wear vests. Many legitimate SD owners do not put vests on, myself included. I do not like the attention the vests draw on me. 

Not to mention, a significant amount of hearing service dogs are small dogs, and many of them have no vests. They get mistaken for people carrying small dogs in.




> That's crazy. All my small dog forums(yorkie, maltese, ect) I have never heard of that before...


Instead of going to biased groups, go read on service dog forums. You'll see countless cases of it.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Service dogs don't have to wear vests nor do they have to be large breeds. There is no standard vest for service dogs and they are not legally required to wear one. Service dogs don't have to be seeing eye dogs either, they perform a variety of tasks from being a guide dog to being a hearing dog, a dog to help mobility, seizure alert, I could go on and on. Even though most service dogs are larger breeds there are still quite a number of small and toy dogs being used as a variety of service dogs. I know Mia's breeder has produced I think 3 papillons that are service dogs performing various tasks for their owners. My friend's service dog is a Chinese Crested which is a far cry from the usual lab or shepherd you think of when you think of a service dog.


Just a FYI, it's commonly thought at SFSPCA (they trained Service Dogs for the Deaf) that the best service dogs for hearing imparied people are usually going to be smaller, highly reactive and energetic dogs. Big dogs don't tend to be as reactive as smaller dogs (not the negative kind of reactive, but as in, alert)



> RBark has made very valid and very true points in his posts, hon. You may not have liked his tone, but his message was absolutely right on.


I appreciate the compliment, it's hard to maintain cool in things like this sometimes because it's a deeply personal issue for many of us who are disabled and ignored by society due to being too small a minority for anyone to care about. Either way I'm glad something got across at least.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RBark said:


> Just a FYI, it's commonly thought at SFSPCA (they trained Service Dogs for the Deaf) that the best service dogs for hearing imparied people are usually going to be smaller, highly reactive and energetic dogs. Big dogs don't tend to be as reactive as smaller dogs (not the negative kind of reactive, but as in, alert)


That's what I have heard through the people doing work with papillons as service (specifically hearing) dogs. The alertness plus their nature to want to be around their human constantly makes them a good candidate for that among a lot of the other toy breeds. 

I think a lot of people don't even think past the typical guide dog type service dog to realize that service dogs come in a large variety of shapes and sizes and perform an even larger amount of tasks for their owners.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Hey, I am all for bringing my dog everywhere with me (ok, Gatsby is maybe not the best example for this, reactive little nutjob that he is) but fact is it's illegal. Want that to change? Change the law. Hint: the way to do that is not by breaking it.

Darla. Ok. You want "tiny almost hidden from view dogs" to be the exception. What's the cut off? Height? Weight? Ability to fit in a purse? What size purse? Are stores allowed to measure dogs as they come in? Are they allowed to let well-behaved dogs over the limit in? Are they allowed to keep poorly-behaved dogs under the limit out? What if I have a standard size purse, but I've altered it so Gatsby can fit?

I'm just... boggled. You want special perks because you don't see how it could possibly impact others. But, isn't that kind of the point that *it doesn't happen to you, because you aren't disabled.* So when people who use service dogs tell you how your actions impact their *life*, you basically tell them their points aren't valid, because you haven't seen it. Because you have experience being a disabled person with a service dog.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> Okay, I don't understand why tiny almost hidden from view dogs would be a problem to the disable? Why would people not think the seeing eye dog would be legitament? Does the "Service Dog: Do Not Pet" vest not give it away? Or is it that there is a huge, quiet, well-behaved dog just walking around the store not give it away enough? I don't see small dogs in purses with those vest on ever, so how can they(meaning the government) get those two type of dogs confused? Please help me understand here.


A store manager might be confused as to whether an animal is a legitimate service dog because there are so many people (like yourself) who bring dogs that are _not _into places where only service dogs should be. 

If two different owners with two identical Papillons walk into my restuarant, how am I to know which is the service dog and which isn't? In order to find out, I have to question both owners, which makes both of them angry. The owner without the disability leaves because it is illegal for him to be there with his dog. The owner with the disability leaves because he didn't like being questioned about his disability. Now neither owner comes to my resturant anymore. 

I want to avoid losing any more business, so I contact my local government officials and ask that they create more stringent laws for recognition of service dogs.

As a result of all these requests, the government forces people with disabilities to wear badges and present ID when they are out in public with their service animals. Now these people with disabilities feel like second class citizens _all the time_.

It isn't the government who is confused when you illegally bring your non-service dog into an establishment. It is the regular people who own and patronize shops and restaurants who are confused. But because of their confusion, the government has to create legislation.

This conversation doesn't, of course, doesn't take into account the other reasons why dogs are not welcome in many public establishments. Hygiene is certainly part of the problem. Yes, my dog sheds and I still eat dinner at home. But I also know that my dog is free of pests and is well groomed. Since I don't know you or your dog, I can't feel totally comfortable with her sitting in the booth next to me at a restaurant. In addition, I know that nobody in my family is allergic to dogs. The person in the line ahead of you in WalMart may very well be and your dog could easily cause an allergic reaction of proportions you cannot guess until it occurs. Children can be irritating in public, as someone mentioned, but they aren't generally a threat to anyone's ability to aspirate.

Public safety is another reason. My dog is very well behaved. A therapy dog, as a matter of fact. But I don't know you and your dog, so I can't guarantee that she isn't going to hurt me or damage my belongings. This is especially true in the case of a dog I can't see. What if I lean over a cart to grab something off a shelf and a dog I didn't know was there darts out of its purse and takes a chunk out of my finger? It isn't possible to allow "only good dogs" in public because my definition of a good dog may be different from the yokel's down the street. If one dog is not allowed, then none of the dogs are allowed, regardless of how well behaved they are.

My real question to people who break laws like this particular one is why? My dog is perfectly fine waiting at home while I go to the store or dinner at a restaurant. Why is yours not fine at home while you go to the store or dinner at a restaurant? What benefit does your dog derive out of riding around WalMart in what you claim is a fully enclosed bag? Doesn't the inside of a fully enclosed bag look a lot like the inside of a crate? So why isn't the dog home in a crate? What is the _purpose _of breaking this law?


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

The vest draw more attention? I'm always upset I can't go pet the dog in the mall because it is "working" vest on, thats how I know the dog is a SD and not working. I think a giant dog walkin in the mall would make me want to pet it as I wouldn't know if they are working or not. That means anybody can just simply lie and say they are "service dogs" just because they want their St. Bernard to go everyplace with them. Heck, that is what we soon may see actually. 

These are why people think dogs are "accessories". 
Thank you Bloomingdales: 
http://www.bloomingdales.com/style-...DE1-_-IMAGEMAP -- 16697 -- Homepage_0329-0401

Everytime I happen to walk down the children's toys aisle in a store I see tons of plush dogs in little carrier bags little girls. And thank you for teaching the future gnertion that small dogs are accessories: 
http://www.bloomingdales.com/style-...DE1-_-IMAGEMAP -- 16697 -- Homepage_0329-0401

This one is really hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns8wLmjUUnY


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> The vest draw more attention? I'm always upset I can't go pet the dog in the mall because it is "working" vest on, thats how I know the dog is a SD and not working. I think a giant dog walkin in the mall would make me want to pet it as I wouldn't know if they are working or not. That means anybody can just simply lie and say they are "service dogs" just because they want their St. Bernard to go everyplace with them. Heck, that is what we soon may see actually.


No it does not mean that anyone can lie and say they are service dogs. You do not know anything about service dogs, why are you assuming things? If there's a dog without a vest in the mall you should never, ever approach them to pet.

The fact you don't know why should educate you on your ignorance on the subject on service dogs. Instead of making judgments with no basis, you should instead be asking these questions and finding them out.

The reason service dogs without vests draw less attention is because they are a unknown quantity. Many people see a big German Shepherd without a ID, they don't know if he's friendly, they don't know what kind of dog he is. Could be a police dog, could be a service dog, could be here illegally. It doesn't matter which reason it is, most people will not approach that dog. If you approached me with my unvested service dog, I would first call the police to report you for holding your dog in a purse and report you to the manager, educate them on their rights to kick you out the store, and that you are there illegally.

Second, I would tell you to bugger off and leave me alone. Hearing people don't get harassed in the store, why should I get harassed just because I have a service dog legitimately in the store????? 

Most people see dogs with vests and think "oooooh, friendly dog! Let's baby talk them and pet them!" That's good for people like Xeph, but not for me.



> These are why people think dogs are "accessories".
> Thank you Bloomingdales:
> http://www.bloomingdales.com/style-...DE1-_-IMAGEMAP -- 16697 -- Homepage_0329-0401
> 
> ...


No idea what that has to do with the subject, but that's no justification at all.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> My real question to people who break laws like this particular one is why? My dog is perfectly fine waiting at home while I go to the store or dinner at a restaurant. Why is yours not fine at home while you go to the store or dinner at a restaurant? What benefit does your dog derive out of riding around WalMart in what you claim is a fully enclosed bag? Doesn't the inside of a fully enclosed bag look a lot like the inside of a crate? So why isn't the dog home in a crate? What is the _purpose _of breaking this law?


I can't go shopping with Gigi because I get too much attention, I hate it, I wouldn't be able to get nothing done. 
Especially when we plan to be gone for many hours. Owning a dog shouldn't bind you to your house. Miss Gigi hates it when we leave. You should be able to go to the football games with friends and then go out to eat. Plus, when we travel(which is a lot) we will go to families houses for many house then go out to eat, maybe catch a memorial on the way. We never return to the hotel ever unless we're sleeping. LOL Plus, hotels won't allow an animal to stay in the room unatteneded. I will never bored an animal ever, and I don't trust anybody, not even family to properly care for her, brush her 30 minutes everyday, ect. We have never spent a night apart, not even when she was spayed. Crazy vet wanted to leave her there All alone the whole night at the hospital. Nobody knows my dog better than me, and you're darn right I will be sleeping in a cot next to her ex-pen that night to make sure she will be okay.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> A store manager might be confused as to whether an animal is a legitimate service dog because there are so many people (like yourself) who bring dogs that are _not _into places where only service dogs should be.
> 
> If two different owners with two identical Papillons walk into my restuarant, how am I to know which is the service dog and which isn't? In order to find out, I have to question both owners, which makes both of them angry. The owner without the disability leaves because it is illegal for him to be there with his dog. The owner with the disability leaves because he didn't like being questioned about his disability. Now neither owner comes to my resturant anymore.
> 
> ...


Excellent post, and very well articulated points!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I could have written this same letter to owners like Darla who think it's appropriate to bring non-service dogs to THE MALL. So, to the guy at the mall with the giant mutt. Why did your "service dog" jump on me in passing and knock my bags out of my hands? I'm fairly certain they don't train service dogs to knock small girls over. 

I have a little dog. You better believe he's not going in a purse, and he isn't going to the store with me. He aids me in no way and I need no aid. I also don't have some unhealthy attachment to him where I believe he wants and NEEDS to go every where with me. I also respect the disabled and the laws in place to protect them.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

RBark said:


> No it does not mean that anyone can lie and say they are service dogs. You do not know anything about service dogs, why are you assuming things? If there's a dog without a vest in the mall you should never, ever approach them to pet.
> 
> *The fact you don't know why should educate you on your ignorance on the subject on service dogs. Instead of making judgments with no basis, you should instead be asking these questions and finding them out.*
> 
> ...


Heck, I know many people(teenagers and youngsters) who if they read that, they would deff. try and bring their pitts to the shopping mall and pass them off as a service dog. They already breed them..Who would know? I'm not saying I would ever do that though.

I AM in fact asking these questions because of my ignorance. Sorry, my high school life doesn't revolve around knowing if a SD is a SD or a fake. They don't have classes like that at my school. If they did, maybe I would take those classes and ask there but they don't. Maybe they have it as an extra-curricular actvitiy? But they don't have it ether. So I'm asking here. THANKS. 

Why would anybody harasse you and who said they would? Did I miss something?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> Plus, hotels won't allow an animal to stay in the room unatteneded.


Untrue! I stay in hotels with Crystal fairly often, and they have no problem with a dog left in the room as long as it is confined to its crate. Most front desks will ask that you let them know the dog is there and give them your cell phone number so they can call you if there are any issues.

Does anyone know the legality of taking dogs into stores here in Canada? I take Crystal into some (non-food) places. At some of them (such as Staples or the local home building supplies store), the cashiers even keep dog treats in their tills for when dogs visit. We will always leave a store if asked (and usually ask upon entering if the dog can come in -- at some shops, such as a purse store downtown here and a Toronto toy store, the owner has okayed it), but I don't want to take her into stores anymore if it's actually illegal.

I rarely see service dogs around, and never really considered that people bringing non-service dogs -- even well-behaved ones -- into stores could have such a negative effect on how people with service dogs are treated. This thread is enlightening!


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> Heck, I know many people(teenagers and youngsters) who if they read that, they would deff. try and bring their pitts to the shopping mall and pass them off as a service dog. They already breed them..Who would know? I'm not saying I would ever do that though.
> 
> I AM in fact asking these questions because of my ignorance. Sorry, my high school life doesn't revolve around knowing if a SD is a SD or a fake. They don't have classes like that at my school. If they did, maybe I would take those classes and ask there but they don't. Maybe they have it as an extra-curricular actvitiy? But they don't have it ether. So I'm asking here. THANKS.
> 
> Why would anybody harasse you and who said they would? Did I miss something?


You are missing a vast amount of life experience and walking in Xeph and Smithcat's shoes. You may not understand why they harass us, but they do. It's stupid, it's idiotic, and it's because of people who bring their illegitimate service dogs to stores that it happens. That means people like you. You may not understand it, because it does not affect you. But it affects thousands of disabled people every day.

It's very, very simple to identify a service dog. You might not be able to, but you don't have to. Hint: Your dog is not a service dog, so that's one clue. It is the job of store owners to verify service dogs and kick out those who are not, but most owners are ignorant of the law.

Those kids who bring their pit bulls to the mall would be kicked out so fast they wouldn't know what hit them, and be fined, if I was there to see it.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> The comments at the beginning of this thread....
> 
> I BRING MY DOG IN PURSES ANYWHERE SHE WANTS.


And if I see that dog in your purse you will be asked to leave the store stat.

You don't think you are "harming" anyone, but here is something you didn't think about. How about people who have a fear of dogs or are highly allergic to dogs? You ARE harming them by bringing your pet into the store. Your also harming me, because I have to stop what I am doing at work and ask you to leave then FOLLOW you to the exit to make sure you leave. When I do not get a job done because I have to keep asking you to head out, and the boss comes yelling at me, you bet I'm harmed.

As for the who Hotel thing, you dog can stay in your hotel while you are gone, they just have to be contained to a crate so they can not cause damage. Otherwise looks like they should be staying in your car when you are out and about. "But it's too HOT" tough. Maybe next time you should let your dog stay at a kennel or find a better hotel.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> Heck, I know many people(teenagers and youngsters) who if they read that, they would deff. try and bring their pitts to the shopping mall and pass them off as a service dog. They already breed them..Who would know? I'm not saying I would ever do that though.


Actually there are quite a few Pit Bull service dogs in the US. Don't think that just because of their breed, that they can't be service dogs.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

I just sat here and read this entire thread, first to last post. I am appalled at the selfishness of DarlaGisselle.  

Sometime in the future I may need a service dog (I have MS). I pray to God I don't. I also hope I don't run into DG and her purse dog. As RBark said, SD's are going to have bad days...just like I can, or he can or DG can. They are are taught about distractions and smells, but as the saying goes...shit happens. 

And DG, you are just the kind of person who, if an SD did ANYTHING to their precious widdle purse dog, would scream bloody murder and want to sue. I don't care if you are only in high school...GET OVER YOURSELF! The world is not all about you or your friends on other forums who also take their dogs everywhere. It is illegal...I can only hope that you will learn from this forum and this thread in particular, and think about what you are doing.

And boohoo that Gigi hates to be left alone...that's your fault. You made her that way!


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Darla Giselle said:


> I can't go shopping with Gigi because I get too much attention, I hate it, I wouldn't be able to get nothing done.
> Especially when we plan to be gone for many hours. Owning a dog shouldn't bind you to your house. Miss Gigi hates it when we leave. You should be able to go to the football games with friends and then go out to eat. Plus, when we travel(which is a lot) we will go to families houses for many house then go out to eat, maybe catch a memorial on the way. We never return to the hotel ever unless we're sleeping. LOL Plus, hotels won't allow an animal to stay in the room unatteneded. I will never bored an animal ever, and I don't trust anybody, not even family to properly care for her, brush her 30 minutes everyday, ect. We have never spent a night apart, not even when she was spayed. Crazy vet wanted to leave her there All alone the whole night at the hospital. Nobody knows my dog better than me, and you're darn right I will be sleeping in a cot next to her ex-pen that night to make sure she will be okay.


Darla, seriously? If I understand you correctly, then it is "necessary" for you to illegally bring your dog to various establishments because you have not trained her to be alone and are too self-centered to sacrifice your needs for hers.

The adults in your life should have made this clear to you before you received a pet: Owning a pet restricts your personal freedom. Just as you must adapt your life and schedule in order to accommodate children, so must you adapt your life and your schedule in order to accommodate pets. I own a dog and I am able to work a full day five days a week, go out for extended periods of time on the weekends, and travel because my dog is well adjusted and well trained. I do plan around the dog, to a certain extent, but thus far he has never kept me from doing anything I want to do...and I don't have to break the law for that to be true.

It's easier for young parents to bring their screaming babies to R rated movies than it is for them to find babysitters, but I still expect them to leave if their kid won't be quiet. It's easier for my neighbor to let his dog's poop sit on my lawn than it is fcor him to bend down and pick it up, but I still expect him to clean up. It's easier for you to take your dog to inappropriate public places than it is for you to train her to be comfortable alone at home, but I still expect you to follow the law.

"I don't feel like it," isn't a reason to break the law and inconvenience those around you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Darla Giselle said:


> The vest draw more attention? I'm always upset I can't go pet the dog in the mall because it is "working" vest on, thats how I know the dog is a SD and not working. I think a giant dog walkin in the mall would make me want to pet it as I wouldn't know if they are working or not. *That means anybody can just simply lie and say they are "service dogs" just because they want their St. Bernard to go everyplace with them. Heck, that is what we soon may see actually. *


Isn't that almost exactly what you're doing though? Bringing a non service dog where it doesn't belong?

Some disabled people like vests on their dogs and some do not. My friend with the crestie service dog had to go buy her dog a vest in an effort to get people to stop harassing her and believe her that her dog is actually a service dog. It helps a little but people STILL don't believe her dog is a service dog simply because of breed. Why? Because people assume the only reason you'd have a toy dog with you is because you're one of 'those' owners that think they can take their dogs wherever.

I just don't understand the mentality. You have RBark and Xeph and Smithcat telling you about their real experiences being a disabled person with a service dog and you kind of seem like you're blowing it off because you don't see it happening. But you're not disabled so you are obviously not seeing the entire picture. 



> I can't go shopping with Gigi because I get too much attention, I hate it, I wouldn't be able to get nothing done.
> Especially when we plan to be gone for many hours. Owning a dog shouldn't bind you to your house. Miss Gigi hates it when we leave. You should be able to go to the football games with friends and then go out to eat. Plus, when we travel(which is a lot) we will go to families houses for many house then go out to eat, maybe catch a memorial on the way. We never return to the hotel ever unless we're sleeping. LOL Plus, hotels won't allow an animal to stay in the room unatteneded. I will never bored an animal ever, and I don't trust anybody, not even family to properly care for her, brush her 30 minutes everyday, ect. We have never spent a night apart, not even when she was spayed. Crazy vet wanted to leave her there All alone the whole night at the hospital. Nobody knows my dog better than me, and you're darn right I will be sleeping in a cot next to her ex-pen that night to make sure she will be okay.


Since when does having a pet bind you to the house? I leave my dogs alone daily and they survive. I just make sure when I'm here they get ample attention and exercise. If you take on a dog you do have to rearrange your schedule some to take care of it. Board them if you must. I board mine once or twice a year when I am on vacation. They always survive. It is unrealistic to bring your pet dog everywhere with you.

I'm not trying to be mean but it sounds like you need to take a step back and allow Gigi some independence. Yes, dogs love their people and love being with them but they won't wither away and die if you spend time apart.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

infiniti said:


> Excellent post, and very well articulated points!


Why thank you! Apparently that degree in Rhetoric and Composition is good for _something_, lol.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Darla, seriously, go read that thread about what Strauss and I go through everyday. Try and get an INKLING of understanding what it's like, and how *you make my life harder* by bringing Gigi everywhere.

If she can't be left alone, that's your fault. You taught her to be that way.

Strauss is with me 98% of the time. The 2% that he's left alone? He sleeps in his kennel. In fact, I'm sure he enjoys the break.

Quit bringing your pet into stores where she doesn't belong (and this is ALL stores except pet stores!) >.<


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Taking a non-service dog into a business that isn't pet related and allows dogs is inconsiderate/selfish/rude. Doesn't matter what size dog.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Quit bringing your pet into stores where she doesn't belong (and this is ALL stores except pet stores!) >.<


While I agree that dogs don't belong in stores in general, I do believe it is technically _legal _for the owner of a privately owned shop to allow animals on his or her property. 

I could be wrong, though.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

luvntzus said:


> I don't see any issue taking a small dog in a purse in a store as long as it is well behaved. It's a way that I help socialize my dogs. I took Honey Bun (my new Shih Tzu puppy) in a purse to Walmart the other day and you never would have known she was there. She just laid inside the carrier and was quiet as a mouse.
> 
> To the person who said carrying your dog in a purse is a fashion statement and "so 5 years ago"- I wasn't aware that I was doing something outdated. Since apparently I'm only carrying my dog (hidden in a bag) as a fashion statement, I guess I'll have to keep up with the trends better.


Isn't it against the law to take dogs into places unless they're a service dog? I have two dogs who are very well behaved, why should you bring yours someplace, hidden, just because you can and I obey the laws and leave mine at home?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

BooLette said:


> LOL.
> 
> There is a difference when you make it harder for other teams though, Strauss has a right to be there, and you need him there. Obviously that chick had no right to have that annoying little dog in the store. That is what ticks me off.


Not worth the emotional energy to tell someone off, though, imo.

You're not likely to convince her what she is doing is wrong (if she thought that, the dog probably wouldn't have been there). 

Why give someone like that some of your emotional energy? Save for positive things with your dogs and family and yourself!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Do I get a tutu?


Do we get pictures? <g>


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Darla Giselle said:


> I can't go shopping with Gigi because I get too much attention, I hate it, I wouldn't be able to get nothing done.
> Especially when we plan to be gone for many hours. Owning a dog shouldn't bind you to your house. Miss Gigi hates it when we leave. You should be able to go to the football games with friends and then go out to eat. Plus, when we travel(which is a lot) we will go to families houses for many house then go out to eat, maybe catch a memorial on the way. We never return to the hotel ever unless we're sleeping. LOL Plus, hotels won't allow an animal to stay in the room unatteneded. I will never bored an animal ever, and I don't trust anybody, not even family to properly care for her, brush her 30 minutes everyday, ect. We have never spent a night apart, not even when she was spayed. Crazy vet wanted to leave her there All alone the whole night at the hospital. Nobody knows my dog better than me, and you're darn right I will be sleeping in a cot next to her ex-pen that night to make sure she will be okay.


she's a dog, not a human. It doesn't matter is she hates it when you leave, she'll get over it. What the heck do you think people do with bigger dogs, stay home? No, they continue on with life, they leave their dogs. If they need to go outside, they hire a sitter, get a friend to come over, whatever. Hotels indeed will let dogs stay in a room unattended, provided they're crated. That's what those of us with larger dogs do. What's going to happen to this little dog if soemthing happens to YOU? What if something happens to her, and she has to stay in the hospital? There are illnesses that make it necessary for your dog to not be able to come home.
I honestly don't get that anyone thinks it's okay to take their dog anywhere they want to, except for inside restaurants, just because they can, because the dog can be hidden, just because they want to.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Reading this post just shocks the crap out of me. Some of you are out of your minds. I won't mention names. We all know who they are.

Regular pets SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN STORES! There are the exceptions (pet stores) but it's WRONG!

Those cute little dogs that fit in your pocket or purse are cute...but don't belong in Wal-Mart, Target, restaurants, etc. It doesn't matter if they are quiet, it doesn't matter if no one sees them. It's wrong. It's illegal. It's a PITA for other patrons. What if someone else in the store has allergies. You have just made their life hell so that your dog could see the discount department store. Woohoo. My dog is fine at home while I am out. He's happy to see me come home...but he was fine without me. I was fine without him. If I want to work on socialization, I sit outside and let the neighbor kids come up to us or take him to the park. I DON'T TAKE HIM TO THE STORE! Makes no sense. No one wants to buy food with hair in it. No one wants to have to clean fur off of clothing that they have just purchased. It's a pain. FOR EVERYONE. What happens when the regular person who thought bringing their dog in would be fun takes a crap in aisle 12? What do you do when he marks a clothing rack? Most people won't say anything and won't clean it up. It's a nuisance to everyone. Pretty soon, if enough people bring in their non-service dogs into a store, the people WHO TRULY NEED THEM will not be allowed to have them there either. It will make their lives harder and they will lose their ability to be self-reliant. No one wants to ask a person for help every time they need something. It's great to have a dog that KNOWS it's job and is there to do it. I am not about to screw up the lives of countless people that need service dogs so that Scrappy can see that they sell sodas in one aisle and toilet paper in another. Dogs have no need to ride in purse in the cart. What dog TRULY wants to be shoved in a tiny bag when they can have freedom and movement at home? If you don't think your dog will survive, bring it home a treat every time you go out. Pretty soon, the dog will look forward to being left at home because it means something wonderful is going to happen.

People opinions on this have really set me off today! LOL I guess my bottom line is this:

IF YOUR DOG ISN'T A SERVICE DOG, LEAVE IT AT HOME! Let's make life easier for other people instead of being selfish.

Oh and my kid has been the screaming crying "brat" in the store. You know what? I hope it ticked off your purse pet!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Glad to know you're ok with committing a federal offense. I do hope one of these days an SD handler notices, and calls you on it.
> 
> I have worked *extremely* hard with Mouse to get where we are. And I have to go above and beyond "normal" dog ownership because he not only has to be absolute perfect in manner while we're in public, he has to be impeccably groomed. He is still bathed every other month, but he is brushed frequently (particularly before he is put in harness and we go into stores). He always smells pleasant (thank you Cowboy Magic), his nails are done, his teeth and ears are clean...he's beyond presentable.
> 
> For people with small dogs to think it is ok to break the law just because their dogs are small and "aren't bothering anybody" does not make it ok. YOU may not think you're having an impact on my dog and I entering places, but *you most certainly are*! You just don't know because it is not affecting you. You are the cause, I suffer the effect.


I have to pipe up and say I have (unbeknownst to me) taken Dude in where he wasn't supposed to be. I didn't see a "no pets" sign. I was picking my grandma up from a perm appointment, decided she'd be pleasantly surprised to see Dude and carried him in with me. He didn't say a word, but a stylist asked me (very nicely, btw) if I could possibly take him to the car because they could get fined if someone saw him in there. I seriously, HONESTLY didn't know that, and I felt horrible. I immediately took him to the car and apologized. No one was upset except me rolleyes. It's a small business and I figured no one would mind. I learned my lesson, and it could have (should have?) been a lot worse! If I don't see a no pets sign, I don't automatically assume pets are welcome, and I ask before I even consider loading my dogs up in the car. My apologies to those who DO work their tails off to have dogs they need 
I too admire the euro outlook on dogs being welcome guests practically everywhere they go. But_ until_ that attitude is full blown here in the states, I intend to obey the law.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

My dog doesn't shed and is enclosed in a purse. She's not getting hair on things anymore than an owner of shedding dog does walking around with hair on their clothes.

Also, are service dogs ever kept in purses? It seems like a service dog would walk on the ground. I don't see how there would be any confusion whatsoever.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> My dog doesn't shed and is enclosed in a purse. She's not getting hair on things anymore than an owner of shedding dog does walking around with hair on their clothes.
> 
> Also, are service dogs ever kept in purses? It seems like a service dog would walk on the ground. I don't see how there would be any confusion whatsoever.


I wasn't just talking about purse pets. I am talking about what would happen if everyone brought their dog in.

No one NEEDS to bring their dog to a store unless it's a service dog. The point isn't that it sheds, it's that it's UNNECESSARY!!!!

*sheesh!*

Even "hypoallergenic" and "non-shedding" dogs can trigger allergies. It's just RUDE!

THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE! IT'S RUDE!!!


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I'm not trying to be mean but it sounds like you need to take a step back and allow Gigi some independence. Yes, dogs love their people and love being with them but they won't wither away and die if you spend time apart.


Icesis HATES whenever we leave too. She pouts, and even if I leave her a tasty treat or Kong as compensation she won't eat it until we come back. But she's a _grownup dog_, and she can handle it. She's not a dependent baby, even if _she'd_ prefer to be treated like one sometimes. 

It'd be good for Gigi to either spend time in daycare or a petsitter's house if you're away for a long time. She'd make some new friends and it'd be good for her, imo. I honestly think it makes them happier to have some sense that they can be independent sometimes.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Please, tiny dogs can be stepped on by children and killed, the world believes they are no "threat" with them even if they are growling their little heads off. You don't see them in the news for biting or killing. If Gigi bit somebody, you would need a bandaide... LOL 

*Not always so. My mom was sent to the ER and was in the hospital for blood poisoning from a bite that was delivered by a miniature schnauzer. *


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Urgh, I was at my vocal coach for just one hour...and this...



Crantastic said:


> Untrue! I stay in hotels with Crystal fairly often, and they have no problem with a dog left in the room as long as it is confined to its crate. Most front desks will ask that you let them know the dog is there and give them your cell phone number so they can call you if there are any issues.
> 
> *I rarely see service dogs around, and never really considered that people bringing non-service dogs -- even well-behaved ones -- into stores could have such a negative effect on how people with service dogs are treated. This thread is enlightening!*


Lucky, all the hotels said we couldn't. I too, rarely see SD around which is why I am asking these questions. 

But it's okay, I'm to "selfish" to care(said in the most sarcastic tone). So, I guess I will stop asking questions now... 



Darkmoon said:


> Actually there are quite a few Pit Bull service dogs in the US. Don't think that just because of their breed, that they can't be service dogs.


I know there are many, and they are great. Some of Vicks pits are now SDs. But I was just saying that, if SDs don't have something on them that says they are a certified SD, than anybody could do that if they wanted, and just lie. Yes its VERY wrong. But how would somebody catch them, how would they know they weren't service dogs? What if an owner said they have anxiety problems are the dog helps the. I know many small dogs that are SD because of their owners "anxiety" without them... 



alphadoginthehouse said:


> I just sat here and read this entire thread, first to last post. I am appalled at the selfishness of DarlaGisselle.
> 
> Sometime in the future I may need a service dog (I have MS). I pray to God I don't. I also hope I don't run into DG and her purse dog. As RBark said, SD's are going to have bad days...just like I can, or he can or DG can. They are are taught about distractions and smells, but as the saying goes...shit happens.
> 
> ...


Your post is rediculous. Not what you said but how you said it. You're not going to convince ANYONE like that. 

You all keep saying that SD will have bad days? So much to hurt a small dog in a ourse? What if a SD has a bad day with a child near? I wouldn't be the on sueing for that one, but some else may. 

I AM over myself, now you get over me! Goodness gracious...

And clarification for everyone who read this post wrong, Gigi stays home all the hours I am at school. Since I cheer my days are from 7:00-6:30. Thank goodness my mom comes home for lunch for an hour.



Laurelin said:


> Isn't that almost exactly what you're doing though? Bringing a non service dog where it doesn't belong?
> 
> I just don't understand the mentality. You have RBark and Xeph and Smithcat telling you about their real experiences being a disabled person with a service dog and you kind of seem like you're blowing it off because you don't see it happening. But you're not disabled so you are obviously not seeing the entire picture.
> 
> Since when does having a pet bind you to the house? I leave my dogs alone daily and they survive. I just make sure when I'm here they get ample attention and exercise. If you take on a dog you do have to rearrange your schedule some to take care of it. Board them if you must. I board mine once or twice a year when I am on vacation. They always survive. It is unrealistic to bring your pet dog everywhere with you.


Who said I was blowing them? I never said that? How did I give that off? What mde you think that? I totally believe them. It's soo hard to tell tones and mentalities ovr the internet. A poster just said that owning a pet has its personal restrictions. You just said they don't bind you to the house. urghhh this thread has gotten very confusing.



Jod-dog said:


> Oh and my kid has been the screaming crying "brat" in the store. You know what? I hope it ticked off your purse pet!


Gigi could careless, I'm the one it would ticking off. LOL



luvntzus said:


> Also, are service dogs ever kept in purses? It seems like a service dog would walk on the ground. I don't see how there would be any confusion whatsoever.


This is exactly what I was trying to say. HOW do they get it confused. Luvntzus, I don't know how you stayed on this forum so long! LOL

I know many of you have said it but, IT'S ONLY ILLEGAL IF THEY CARRY FOOD OR IF THERE IS A SIGN THATS SAYS "NO PETS". No one is breaking them law then. I thought I said this already. You all should not be complaining about the little dogs. Complain about the establishments that let them in. Even if you all stop one or two small dog owners from bring them every place, its still not going to stop the world... It's not my fault the idiots that own food/store/ect establishments allow Gigi in, even when I ask them. It's not my fault there's no law that says no allowed dogs in any stores except SDs. 
Complaining to me about ME isn't going to change anything but give you all heart attacks and waste emotional energy. This one little teenager shouldn't be wasting your time like this....


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Pai said:


> Icesis HATES whenever we leave too. She pouts, and even if I leave her a tasty treat or Kong as compensation she won't eat it until we come back. But she's a _grownup dog_, and she can handle it. She's not a dependent baby, even if _she'd_ prefer to be treated like one sometimes.
> 
> It'd be good for Gigi to either spend time in daycare or a petsitter's house if you're away for a long time. She'd make some new friends and it'd be good for her, imo. I honestly think it makes them happier to have some sense that they can be independent sometimes.


I agree. My dogs hate it when I leave too, but they don't fall all to pieces if I'm gone for an hour or two. They learn to deal with it, and that it's not the end of the world. Sorry, but IMO creating a dog so totally dependent on its owner that a mental breakdown happens every time they're apart is a form of abuse.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Jod-dog said:


> Oh and my kid has been the screaming crying "brat" in the store. You know what? I hope it ticked off your purse pet!


LOL 


So many great points have been made, and I am definitely on the side of leaving companion pets at home and giving all due respect to service animals and their handlers.

It's very difficult to educate those who feel that their "reasons" are exceptional to their "needs" and "wants" where their pets are concerned. 

I would like to try to simplify it some from yet another (purely hypothetical) perspective: I have a Rottweiler. She loves to "go". She does not fit in a purse. She is not well-behaved on a leash. She is extraordinarily friendly and loves to meet new people. She is very excitable. However, she has a high prey drive and believes anything smaller than around 5-8 pounds is "prey" and chases it.

Now if "purse pets" are allowed everywhere, then technically, ALL pets should fairly be allowed everywhere, and if that were the case, and I were to take Bella everywhere, and, say, at some point encounter Gigi, it would be utter CHAOS!  Bella would undoubtedly snap the leash and go at a dead run for little Gigi who would rightfully be terrified. In the ensuing chaos, children, elderly, unsuspecting individuals would undoubtedly be startled, frightened and possibly knocked down. 

However, what's good for one, should be good for all, according to certain people's opinions, right?

Absolute nonsense! 

Please keep your companion pets at home (unless you are going to a place where pets are legally accepted!), and respect service dogs and the ADA! It should be so that when you see a dog in Target you shouldn't have to wonder if it's a SD, you should KNOW it's a SD because there are no "purse pets" and no companion animals there.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> IT'S ONLY ILLEGAL IF THEY CARRY FOOD OR IF THERE IS A SIGN THATS SAYS "NO PETS".


I would like to reiterate that this is not true. There does not have to be a sign that says "no pets". Most place say "Service dogs welcome". Just because you don't see a sign at a Walmart or Target that says "No pets" does NOT mean that your pet is welcome!

To LazyG, I appreciate that you learned from your mistake! THAT is the important part. The others on this thread that clearly just don't care...they are what really irks me.



> It's not my fault the idiots that own food/store/ect establishments allow Gigi in, even when I ask them. It's not my fault there's no law that says no allowed dogs in any stores except SDs.


Now you're using excuses to justify breaking the law.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> Complaining to me about ME isn't going to change anything but give you all heart attacks and waste emotional energy. This one little teenager shouldn't be wasting your time like this....


Let's see, you're a cheerleader, you take vocal lessons, and you carry your puppy around like a toy.

Now I know you are a teenager.

Makes sense. Your life revolves around you. You get what you want when you want it.

Just don't be the "brat" that gets all SDs banned from stores--because your precious pooch needs to shop.

Just because ONE employee says it's okay doesn't mean squat. You need to check with the manager and/or the company headquarters. You can't just assume that it's fine. That employee may think it's funny to see if you would get kicked out. They may do it just to see what trouble could be caused.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Now you're using excuses to justify breaking the law.


No I'm not. I'm saying that if you want you voices to be heard, if you want to see a change, go to someone who will listen! Make a law! Venting on a dog forum is not going to help this BIG time issue.



Jod-dog said:


> Let's see, you're a cheerleader, you take vocal lessons, and you carry your puppy around like a toy.
> 
> Now I know you are a teenager.
> 
> ...


This is directed to only this poster above, everyone else, I have no problem with.
You can all offend me as much as you want. BUT DO NOT OFFEND GIGI.  Now I'M mad. Your life may suck, but you are not going to take it out on me OR GIGI. She is not a d*** toy, and if you ever happen to meet her, I won't discourage "this toy" from biting you.
When the H*** did I say I took her shopping. YOU DON'T KNOW ME. Or you can stop stalking my life and get one of your own. Seriously, I know more d*** teenagers that sound a h*** of a lot smarter than you, my dear.

Ah, much better now, back to you all  Laurelin, I like your post below, and I never said I wouldn't change....Is that what this thread is all about and is that why you all are so worked up?


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> No I'm not. I'm saying that if you want you voices to be heard, if you want to see a change, go to someone who will listen! Make a law! Venting on a dog forum is not going to help this BIG time issue.


You agree it's a BIG time issue--BUT YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM!!!!! You clearly state that you aren't listening. So, let me try this.

DON'T BRING YOUR DOG TO THE STORE. YOU ARE MAKING LIFE HARDER ON THOSE WITH DISABILITIES THAT NEED SERVICE DOGS!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Darla Giselle said:


> I know there are many, and they are great. Some of Vicks pits are now SDs. But I was just saying that, if SDs don't have something on them that says they are a certified SD, than anybody could do that if they wanted, and just lie. Yes its VERY wrong. But how would somebody catch them, how would they know they weren't service dogs? What if an owner said they have anxiety problems are the dog helps the. I know many small dogs that are SD because of their owners "anxiety" without them...


How is what you're doing with Gigi any different though?



> You all keep saying that SD will have bad days? So much to hurt a small dog in a ourse? What if a SD has a bad day with a child near? I wouldn't be the on sueing for that one, but some else may.


I think they're talking more along the lines of distraction. If your dog is being a distraction or even attacks a SD (has happened before) then the person relying on the SD or the SD itself could get hurt. I know Smithcat has had issues with his wife's SD being attacked by dogs that were brought where they weren't supposed to be.



> Who said I was blowing them? I never said that? How did I give that off? What mde you think that? I totally believe them. It's soo hard to tell tones and mentalities ovr the internet. A poster just said that owning a pet has its personal restrictions. You just said they don't bind you to the house. urghhh this thread has gotten very confusing.


Well, you don't seem to be taking anything they say to heart. they give you reasons why brining your dog places they are not allowed could hurt someone with a SD and you don't seem to care enough to change what you're doing.



> This is exactly what I was trying to say. HOW do they get it confused. Luvntzus, I don't know how you stayed on this forum so long! LOL


This isn't a toy dog forum. Honestly even though I have toy dogs I have yet to find a toy dog forum that has enough common sense for me. 

How do they get it confused? Not every service dog wears a vest. Toy dogs can be service dogs. Someone comes in carrying a small dog and the store owners don't know what to think.



> IT'S ONLY ILLEGAL IF THEY CARRY FOOD OR IF THERE IS A SIGN THATS SAYS "NO PETS". I thought I said this already. You all should not be complaining about the little dogs. Complain about the establishments that let them in. Even if you all stop one or two small dog owners from bring them every place, its still not going to stop the world... It's not my fault the idiots that own food/store/ect establishments allow Gigi in, even when I ask them. It's not my fault there's no law that says no allowed dogs in any stores except SDs.
> Complaining to me about ME isn't going to change anything but give you all heart attacks and waste emotional energy. This one little teenager shouldn't be wasting your time like this....


You should play it safe and assume unless it says 'dogs welcome' they are not allowed. Even if it's not going to stop everyone hopefully more people can learn how to be respectful to SD owners.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

A bit off topic, but out of curiosity- if a store manager had approached that woman and asked her if it was a service dog and she replied something like "I'm agoraphobic and he keeps me from having a panic attack" then it would generally be considered legal right?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Is this the current policy? This answers some questions about service animals:

http://www.ada.gov/qasrvc.htm

Also, I found the part of the FDA Food Code that prohibits non-service animals in restaurants (here, right at the bottom of the page), but I can't find anything about non-food places... can someone else link it? I'm Canadian and not familiar with a lot of US laws.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> This isn't a toy dog forum. Honestly even though I have toy dogs I have yet to find a toy dog forum that has enough common sense for me.


They're cute and cuddly-wuddly and I just want to kiss them and squeeze them until they can't breathe anymore! 

Every time I see someone walking around with their dog in their purse I think of the episode of South Park with Paris Hilton  Not sure if anyone here watches that show. Poor butters 

Anyways I don't think it can be helped- it's the society we live in these days and I'm sure some people would be afraid to ask someone in fear they may offend a legitimate person with a SD.

I always cringe every time I see a kid or two go up and ask to pet someone's guide dog.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Darla, honey ... change begins one step at a time, many times, one person at a time. Why don't you be part of the solution, and start bringing about change? You can't change the world, but you can change your little piece of the world.

Don't wait for someone to tell you that Gigi is not welcome; rather, realize that it's illegal, she's not a service dog, it's disrespectful to those who need service dogs, and stop taking her into places she doesn't belong.

Honestly, can't you see that a disabled person should not have to be singled out and asked if their dog is a service dog? Shouldn't they have the right to "blend in" with the rest of us as much as possible and just have their dog go as unnoticed as possible, instead of having to explain to umpteen people that their dog is legitimately there to provide guidance for them? Because, as it's been said before, when a non-service dog is brought in illegally and a clerk has to question its presence (and its usually pretty obvious when it's not a service dog, imo), it's essentially "labeling" disabled people with service dogs and further spotlighting them. It's wholly unfair and wrong on so many levels.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Hmm... since apparently purse dogs are acceptable (cough.. scarasm..cough) I guess it would be ok for me to put Bella in a roll around duffle bag and take her to walmart.


Did you know that miniature horses can be trained as service animals? I guess that means that everyone should be able to bring their horse in as well? 

DG I think you should look up the federal laws regarding this subject. People such as Xeph, Smithcat, and RBark know what they're talking about. I don't and I don't pretend I do.

As much as I would like it if dogs were allowed in more public stores there is no way that that can happen. Like numerous people have said.. where is the line? Is it small dogs only? Is it only well trained dogs? Only certain breeds? How does one decide if a dog is trained enough.. how does one discern a dog that will not bite some one?

If all dogs were allowed into stores there would be nothing stopping someone from bringing an HA dog into walmart because "he doesn't want to stay at the hotel". What it comes down to is there is no reason for someone to bring their dog into a store unless it is a SD.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Bones said:


> I always cringe every time I see a kid or two go up and ask to pet someone's guide dog.



I have taught my daughter that if there are dogs in the store that they are there to help the person that they are with, not to love on. That they are working and should be left alone.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Bones said:


> A bit off topic, but out of curiosity- if a store manager had approached that woman and asked her if it was a service dog and she replied something like "I'm agoraphobic and he keeps me from having a panic attack" then it would generally be considered legal right?


No, only if agoraphobic is an actual disability as defined by the law. Emotional Support Animals do not have public access rights.



> I know there are many, and they are great. Some of Vicks pits are now SDs. But I was just saying that, if SDs don't have something on them that says they are a certified SD, than anybody could do that if they wanted, and just lie. Yes its VERY wrong. But how would somebody catch them, how would they know they weren't service dogs? What if an owner said they have anxiety problems are the dog helps the. I know many small dogs that are SD because of their owners "anxiety" without them...


Do you know how much it costs to get a service dog vest?

5 Dollars.

Yes, just five whopping bucks.

There's nothing stopping people from getting the vests either. So this is a logical fallacy. I'm not sure why you are trying to defend bringing Gigi to the store when you are obviously against people bringing their dogs to the store.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

And um, I'm not sure if anyone is realizing it but uhhhhhhhh Target and Walmart DO sell food. So um, they arent allowed there either.

If the store sells even a wrapped, sealed, airtight bag of snickers at the check out.... that qualifies as a store that sells food.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> This is directed to only this poster above, everyone else, I have no problem with.
> You can all offend me as much as you want. BUT DO NOT OFFEND GIGI.  Now I'M mad. Your life may suck, but you are not going to take it out on me OR GIGI. She is not a d*** toy, and if you ever happen to meet her, I won't discourage "this toy" from biting you.
> When the H*** did I say I took her shopping. YOU DON'T KNOW ME. Or you can stop stalking my life and get one of your own. Seriously, I know more d*** teenagers that sound a h*** of a lot smarter than you, my dear.


I didn't offend Gigi. I said she was a precious pooch. You however sound like a spoiled brat. You're concerned with you and only you. I appreciate that you took to cussing at me. Wow, mature.

How does my life suck? I have everything I need and spend time with the people that love me and that I love. I am content with everything about my life.

I hope your dog does bite me. I would lmao--as I sued you for bringing the precious pooch into the store in the first place.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

RBark said:


> And um, I'm not sure if anyone is realizing it but uhhhhhhhh Target and Walmart DO sell food. So um, they arent allowed there either.
> 
> If the store sells even a wrapped, sealed, airtight bag of snickers at the check out.... that qualifies as a store that sells food.


I wondered why that wasn't being considered food. Glad you brought it up.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Jod-dog said:


> I have taught my daughter that if there are dogs in the store that they are there to help the person that they are with, not to love on. That they are working and should be left alone.


Jodi, is this daughter you speak of the "brat" that screams in stores??? 

I'm sorry ... I'm just kidding with you ... I couldn't resist ... just my attempt at lighthearted humor!


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

infiniti said:


> Jodi, is this daughter you speak of the "brat" that screams in stores???
> 
> I'm sorry ... I'm just kidding with you ... I couldn't resist ... just my attempt at lighthearted humor!


Yup, that's her! She's a "brat" and a wonderful child! LOL 

I must add that she hasn't thrown a fit in a store since she was under 2 years old. She is now almost 5.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

RBark said:


> And um, I'm not sure if anyone is realizing it but uhhhhhhhh Target and Walmart DO sell food. So um, they arent allowed there either.
> 
> If the store sells even a wrapped, sealed, airtight bag of snickers at the check out.... that qualifies as a store that sells food.


That is what I've been thinking throughout this entire thread......


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Jod-dog said:


> I didn't offend Gigi. I said she was a precious pooch. You however sound like a spoiled brat. You're concerned with you and only you. I appreciate that you took to cussing at me. Wow, mature.
> 
> How does my life suck? I have everything I need and spend time with the people that love me and that I love. I am content with everything about my life.
> 
> I hope your dog does bite me. I would lmao--as I sued you for bringing the precious pooch into the store in the first place.


Thank you for your appreciation. I appreciated it too.  



ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> That is what I've been thinking throughout this entire thread......


I have never bought Gigi in walmart or target. They will usually kick a dog out at the door, although I've seen it before.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

RBark said:


> And um, I'm not sure if anyone is realizing it but uhhhhhhhh Target and Walmart DO sell food. So um, they arent allowed there either.
> 
> If the store sells even a wrapped, sealed, airtight bag of snickers at the check out.... that qualifies as a store that sells food.


I know that Target and Wal-Mart sell food. The FDA Food Code says that it covers "the retail and food service segment of the industry (restaurants and grocery stores and institutions such as nursing homes)," which sounds like it would definitely include places like Wal-Mart and Target where groceries are stocked.  It doesn't specify other establishments, though, and the ADA site refers to stores' "no pet policies" as if each specific store has to make its own... which is why I wondered if there was a separate law governing places that may not be "food places" (like a Staples, or whatever home building supplies stores you guys have). I am *not* trying to argue with anyone; I honestly just would like to get better-educated on the subject and would love to read the laws governing pets in retail establishments. I am not familiar with US laws and need some help finding the relevant ones.  Hope that made sense.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Darla, I have one question for you. After reading this thread, and how it makes it difficult for people who must have an SD in order go about their lives, are you going to stop taking Gigi into stores (other than pet friendly stores)?


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Darla Giselle said:


> I have never bought Gigi in walmart or target. They will usually kick a dog out at the door, although I've seen it before.


I wasn't singling you out or anything. There were other posts of people saying they brought their dog into Walmart, but they'd NEVER bring the dog where food was sold....


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> Darla, I have one question for you. After reading this thread, and how it makes it difficult for people who must have an SD in order go about their lives, are you going to stop taking Gigi into stores (other than pet friendly stores)?


That's a great question. I would love to know that as well!


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Bones said:


> A bit off topic, but out of curiosity- if a store manager had approached that woman and asked her if it was a service dog and she replied something like "I'm agoraphobic and he keeps me from having a panic attack" then it would generally be considered legal right?


No.

Lets get down to basics of law.

To have and use a service dog in the US, 2 criteria must be met.

1. The person must meet the legal definition of "disabled" according to the US Department Of Justice contained in the terms set forth in the Americans With Disabilities Act,

AND

2. The animal must be trained in work or tasks that directly mitigate the qualifying disability.

No legal determination of "disability"= no service dog.
No trained work or tasks that directly mitigate the disability= no service dog.

The mere presence of the dog alone is not a trained task or work and does not qualify. The task or work must be something that impacts a* major life function* (such as seeing, hearing, walking, caring for ones self, dressing, balance, etc) and that the disabled person cannot do of or for themselves. The idea that "Oh, if I have Fluffums here with me, I feel so much better" is not legal qualification of a disability OR of a trained task or work.

A "doctors note" is not legal qualification of a disability. It is merely the opinion of a medical professional (in other words, hearsay) and therefore cannot be a legal determining factor. Only a court of law can make the determination of a person meeting the qualification of legally disabled.

The work or task must be directly related to the disability. A deaf person (with no other extenuating disabilities) may have a wonderfully behaved and trained dog that can fetch a beer from the fridge for them, take the laundry out of the dryer, and pick up a dollar bill from the floor......but unless that dog also does trained alerts for sounds, it cannot be considered a service dog. Why? Because the deaf person is perfectly capable of fetching their own beer from the fridge, taking the laundry out of the dryer, and picking up a dropped dollar bill. The work or task MUST be directly related to the qualifying disability.

There are a lot of scam and fraud websites that are trying to sell "certifications" for service dogs sight-unseen......but not a single one of them will stand up in a court of law as proof of either a legal disability or of the determination of being a legitimate service dog. Just ask the whackjob whose little dog attacked my wifes Guide if her "Official Service Dog ID" kept her from being cited by the police and kicked out of WalMart after the incident. (Hint: a big fat NO would be the correct response.)

Leave your pet at home. When you take your pet into places it does not belong, you are leaving yourself wide open liability wise when the time comes that it goes off and attacks a legitimate service dog or their handler. Most states have laws regarding the interference with or distraction of working service dogs that have both criminal as well as civil penalties. It really is not worth a criminal and/or civil conviction on your permanent record just so you can take your precious little Boopsie places it doesnt belong.

Something to think about.


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## Eris13021 (May 16, 2009)

people should just look up the laws for their individual state/city

auburns:
There shall be excluded from the provisions of this article any dogs which are defined pursuant to § 108 of the Agriculture and Markets Law as a guide dog, hearing dog, service dog, working search dog, therapy dog, detection dog, and any other dogs which are utilized by law enforcement agencies within the jurisdiction of the City of Auburn and are professionally trained service animals utilized for people with disabilities in the performance of its trained duties.

ny state agri market definations:
108:

21. "Hearing dog" means any dog that is trained to aid a person with a hearing impairment and is actually used for such purpose, or any dog owned by a recognized training center located within the state during the period such dog is being trained or bred for such purpose.
22. "Service dog" means any dog that has been or is being individually trained to do work or perform tasks for the benefit of a person with a disability, provided that the dog is or will be owned by such person or that person's parent, guardian or other legal representative.
23. "Person with a disability" means any person with a disability as that term is defined in subdivision twenty-one of section two hundred ninety-two of the executive law.

section 292 subdivision 21
21. The term "disability" means (a) a *physical, mental or medical
impairment resulting from anatomical, physiological, genetic or
neurological conditions which prevents the exercise of a normal bodily
function or is demonstrable by medically accepted clinical or laboratory
diagnostic techniques * or (b) a record of such an impairment or (c) a
condition regarded by others as such an impairment, provided, however,
that in all provisions of this article dealing with employment, the term
shall be limited to disabilities which, upon the provision of reasonable
accommodations, do not prevent the complainant from performing in a
reasonable manner the activities involved in the job or occupation
sought or held.

dont know if this helps in any way.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

I am SO sorry that your wife's dog was attacked. That's horrible and the person needs to be punished.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> Darla, I have one question for you. After reading this thread, and how it makes it difficult for people who must have an SD in order go about their lives, are you going to stop taking Gigi into stores (other than pet friendly stores)?


Well, this is the most legit question in this thread. Finally.

I, for one, don't go anyplace, really. The only places I have time to go to is school, home, extra-curriculars and tutoring, ect. That's it. Seriously, my spring-break started on Friday, and you know where I've been besides my classes, nowhere. I have 2 pre-calc online quizzes and a test to take on top of two essays and then I have to study for all the test I will be having next week because it is the end of the quarter. I have no timeeee for anythinggg. 
I'm really involved with my school, I'm there too much, it drives me crazy! But next year they even want Gigi to be the mascot for the yearbook club and be there in a "I love yearbook" T-shirt while we're selling the yearbooks in the front of the school on back-to-school-night. Now, that's good advertising, nobody will miss us then! LOL Gigi also goes to the outdoor games ie soccer, football because she is allowed. Gigi won't be going to any plays, unless she was in it. Don't worry, unfortunately there are no service doggies at my school. 

Why would I want to take Gigi with me when I'm shopping? I won't get anything done!  I stopped doing that forever ago. 

On vacations, its debatable. I am not in charge of those times. The ones who are in charge, are the ones with the money, my parents! LOL But I'll promise you, if I do see a SD I will be completely out of site from them on the other side of the store. We always plan to go to restaurants with outdoor eating areas so Gigi can come to. And if it's a place we know we will be going to, then we will call and ask the manager ahead of time. If not, we run and go explore around the establishment's area. It's fun.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

I take Roxy everywhere with me that doesn't sell groceries, other than the Dollar Store. She's allowed there, Kohls, Old Navy, and the mall.. She doesn't have to be kept contained at all..We have many dog-friendly stores, resteraunts etc.. and in fact the South Eastern part of Connecticut is made of extremely dog friendly towns, esp Mystic. I have never encountered a problem with bringing Roxy into a store. She's quiet, she's not easily excited, and I must give off a stay away vibe, because I'm never harassed by people wanting to pet her. I know where I can and cannot take her, and I go by that. TBH, and without trying to sound arrogant, I think it is also an SD handler's job to be aware if a store is dog-friendly, other than your traditional Petco and Petsmart etc..so that they know if they'll encounter another dog in their day. I ignore SD dogs, and Roxy does too. They ignore her, as well.. and we all go on our way. With that said, I'd never stand in line with Roxy, and an SD dog in front of us..I'd move on to another line as to not interfere with the work in any way, not that Roxy would ever do anything.


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## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Wow, this thread traveled fast in one day. Catching this at the end of my day and I ~really~ got to get to bed, so I skipped to the end. Just wanted to add...

Someone stated _(quoted wrong post so not sure who)_ that at the walmart they work at they're only allowed to ask if the dog is a service animal. We can't even do that in the Walmart I work at. _At my Walmart_, as of around a year ago or so, it was sent down from Home Office that we're not allowed to ask about or to ask for proof. Nor does the animal need to be marked (by vest or what-not). And the service animal can be _ANY_ type of animal, be it dog, cat, bird, horse (highly doubt that would happen), and so on. And the animal can be of any service. For all we know, that animal could detect seizures. Therefor, we're not to question the customer. However, with that said, if the animal was being a nuisance (like what op described), then that's different. 

With all that said ... Xeph, sorry you have to deal with that. I can understand your frustrations.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> Regular pets SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED IN STORES! *There are the exceptions (pet stores) but it's WRONG!*



Um....what?

So you are saying it's wrong that dogs are allowed in pet stores even though the store policy says it's okay for the dogs to be there?

Huh?


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

KBLover said:


> Um....what?
> 
> So you are saying it's wrong that dogs are allowed in pet stores even though the store policy says it's okay for the dogs to be there?
> 
> Huh?


No. I am saying that dogs don't belong in stores, EXCEPT where it's posted that they can--such as a pet store.


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## Eris13021 (May 16, 2009)

Q: What is a service animal?

A: The ADA defines a service animal as any guide dog, signal dog, or other animal individually trained to provide assistance to an individual with a disability. If they meet this definition, animals are considered service animals under the ADA regardless of whether they have been licensed or certified by a state or local government.

Service animals perform some of the functions and tasks that the individual with a disability cannot perform for him or herself. Guide dogs are one type of service animal, used by some individuals who are blind. This is the type of service animal with which most people are familiar. But there are service animals that assist persons with other kinds of disabilities in their day-to-day activities. Some examples include:

_ Alerting persons with hearing impairments to sounds.

_ Pulling wheelchairs or carrying and picking up things for persons with mobility impairments.

_ Assisting persons with mobility impairments with balance.

A service animal is not a pet.

3. Q: How can I tell if an animal is really a service animal and not just a pet?

A: Some, but not all, service animals wear special collars and harnesses. Some, but not all, are licensed or certified and have identification papers. If you are not certain that an animal is a service animal, you may ask the person who has the animal if it is a service animal required because of a disability. However, an individual who is going to a restaurant or theater is not likely to be carrying documentation of his or her medical condition or disability. Therefore, such documentation generally may not be required as a condition for providing service to an individual accompanied by a service animal. Although a number of states have programs to certify service animals, you may not insist on proof of state certification before permitting the service animal to accompany the person with a disability.

4. Q: What must I do when an individual with a service animal comes to my business?

A: The service animal must be permitted to accompany the individual with a disability to all areas of the facility where customers are normally allowed to go. An individual with a service animal may not be segregated from other customers.

5. Q: I have always had a clearly posted "no pets" policy at my establishment. Do I still have to allow service animals in?

A: Yes. A service animal is not a pet. The ADA requires you to modify your "no pets" policy to allow the use of a service animal by a person with a disability. This does not mean you must abandon your "no pets" policy altogether but simply that you must make an exception to your general rule for service animals.

6. Q: My county health department has told me that only a guide dog has to be admitted. If I follow those regulations, am I violating the ADA?

A: Yes, if you refuse to admit any other type of service animal on the basis of local health department regulations or other state or local laws. The ADA provides greater protection for individuals with disabilities and so it takes priority over the local or state laws or regulations.

7. Q: Can I charge a maintenance or cleaning fee for customers who bring service animals into my business?

A: No. Neither a deposit nor a surcharge may be imposed on an individual with a disability as a condition to allowing a service animal to accompany the individual with a disability, even if deposits are routinely required for pets. However, a public accommodation may charge its customers with disabilities if a service animal causes damage so long as it is the regular practice of the entity to charge non-disabled customers for the same types of damages. For example, a hotel can charge a guest with a disability for the cost of repairing or cleaning furniture damaged by a service animal if it is the hotel's policy to charge when non-disabled guests cause such damage.

8. Q: I operate a private taxicab and I don't want animals in my taxi; they smell, shed hair and sometimes have "accidents." Am I violating the ADA if I refuse to pick up someone with a service animal?

A: Yes. Taxicab companies may not refuse to provide services to individuals with disabilities. Private taxicab companies are also prohibited from charging higher fares or fees for transporting individuals with disabilities and their service animals than they charge to other persons for the same or equivalent service.

9. Q: Am I responsible for the animal while the person with a disability is in my business?

A: No. The care or supervision of a service animal is solely the responsibility of his or her owner. You are not required to provide care or food or a special location for the animal.

10. Q: What if a service animal barks or growls at other people, or otherwise acts out of control?

A: You may exclude any animal, including a service animal, from your facility when that animal's behavior poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. For example, any service animal that displays vicious behavior towards other guests or customers may be excluded. You may not make assumptions, however, about how a particular animal is likely to behave based on your past experience with other animals. Each situation must be considered individually.

Although a public accommodation may exclude any service animal that is out of control, it should give the individual with a disability who uses the service animal the option of continuing to enjoy its goods and services without having the service animal on the premises.

11. Q: Can I exclude an animal that doesn't really seem dangerous but is disruptive to my business?

A: There may be a few circumstances when a public accommodation is not required to accommodate a service animal--that is, when doing so would result in a fundamental alteration to the nature of the business. Generally, this is not likely to occur in restaurants, hotels, retail stores, theaters, concert halls, and sports facilities. But when it does, for example, when a dog barks during a movie, the animal can be excluded.

If you have further questions about service animals or other requirements of the ADA, you may call the U.S. Department of Justice's toll-free ADA Information Line at 800-514-0301 (voice) or 800-514-0383 (TDD).


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## Eris13021 (May 16, 2009)

more information at this link:
http://www.ada.gov/svcanimb.htm


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Jod-dog said:


> No. I am saying that dogs don't belong in stores, EXCEPT where it's posted that they can--such as a pet store.


I don't agree with this at all. I've taken my dog with me into many stores that weren't pet stores, and he's been welcomed warmly by employees. Home Depot, car shops, plant nurseries, recreational equipment stores, small mom'n'pop boutiques, etc. Just so long as it's not a store that sells food or a restaurant, I don't see the problem. A well behaved dog inside of a store is not impeding on the rights of anyone else. If it's a matter of allergies or cleanliness, human beings track in dog fur on their clothes and dog poop on their shoes all the time. And if it's a matter of unruly, loud, or aggressive dogs causing a scene, employees could easily ask the owners of such dogs to leave the store, just like they would in a pet store... or just like they would if a unruly human was causing a scene in any other store. I honestly don't see how bringing your dog into a store is any ruder than bringing a screaming child into a store or smoking just before entering the store/wearing excessive perfume. (I have asthma and cannot breathe when I come in contact with smoke or many perfumes.)

Xeph, I'm sorry that this woman brought an under-socialized dog into public and it behaved aggressively towards you and Strauss. Strauss behaved wonderfully, though, good job!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Nargle said:


> If it's a matter of *allergies* or cleanliness, human beings track in dog fur on their clothes and dog poop on their shoes all the time.


Not to mention things human themselves use like perfume or cologne or smoke (basically all the stuff you mentioned later) that can set my allergies off worst than 1000 dogs and cats stacked on top of me and all shedding at the same time.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

KBLover said:


> Not to mention things human themselves use like perfume or cologne or smoke (basically all the stuff you mentioned later) that can set my allergies off worst than 1000 dogs and cats stacked on top of me and all shedding at the same time.


That's just a really amusing mental image.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> TBH, and without trying to sound arrogant, I think it is also an SD handler's job to be aware if a store is dog-friendly, other than your traditional Petco and Petsmart etc..so that they know if they'll encounter another dog in their day.


So.......what is it you want? My blind wife to have to go into each establishment she needs to do business in and ask them to sweep the premises for non-service dogs? Why do you think it is her responsibility to make sure that she will not have her Guide attacked by a pet dog when she is shopping? What next? Make her have to wear a yellow star on her clothing and show her papers so that she can do the things you take for granted every day?

She has the RIGHT (not privilege) to shop where and when she wants, without the fear of being treated differently or having to fear for her safety or the safety of her Guide. THAT is what this is all about. And what the law states.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

Egads...reading this thread was a monstrous task!

My PERSONAL experience on dogs in bags... BAD IDEA!! I did it ONCE. When I first got Leif, I couldn't wait to find the "right bag". I looked all over EBay, & elsewhere. I was so excited, &, I imagined being able to take him everywhere that I went.
One day, I took him to the pet store, &, lo & behold - (ta-dah) - they had the PERFECT bag. I bought it with gusto - "bye-bye $48(maybe it was $38???...it was a while ago)"...&, also I got him a meaty bone too at the same time.
Anyhow, I promptly put him inside of the bag, with the bone, &, my daughter & I then hit a few stores in the strip mall...a Hallmark, a $ Store, & then Books A Million. Well, by the time we got to the book store, he was whimpering a bit, so, I told her to grab her books (she ALWAYS has a list*proud mom here*), & we were out of there in a flash...only to get to the car to find out that Leif had PUKED ALL INSIDE OF THIS BAG!!
I felt like a heel, &, a HUGE doofus I suppose that I would say that, I was excited to get those cute little accessories that little dogs can accomodate, because, I had never had a tiny dog before, so, I just wanted to see what it was like. I had a GSD/Husky mix before, & lord knows he WOULD NOT have fit into ANY sort of a bag. I never thought of laws either. Back then, I just was focused on "wow..I can take him anywhere, & noone will ever know" mentality. 
After reading this thread, & learning about how MUCH of it is a "no-no", I really AM thankful that Leif DID puke in his brand-spanking new bag that day...I never placed him back inside of it after that day because of how awful it turned out for me, but...really, hindsight is 20/20!!

Also...I would love to "congratulate" the NEW "Mrs." 

ETA -Besides, if you never leave them home, you will not get the chance to "miss" them!!


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Smithcat said:


> So.......what is it you want? My blind wife to have to go into each establishment she needs to do business in and ask them to sweep the premises for non-service dogs? Why do you think it is her responsibility to make sure that she will not have her Guide attacked by a pet dog when she is shopping? What next? Make her have to wear a yellow star on her clothing and show her papers so that she can do the things you take for granted every day?
> 
> She has the RIGHT (not privilege) to shop where and when she wants, without the fear of being treated differently or having to fear for her safety or the safety of her Guide. THAT is what this is all about. And what the law states.


I don't think your wife should have to be treated any differently because of her disability, and I don't think she should be at risk of having her guide dog attacked. However, I don't think banning dogs from public places would do any good. The problem wasn't that there was a dog in a store... the problem was that there was an aggressive dog in public that obviously couldn't be controlled by its owner. If it had been a well behaved dog, there wouldn't have been an issue. Also, what if her guide dog had been attacked on the sidewalk in front of your house? Would you think that dogs should be banned from all neighborhoods and all sidewalks? If I were you, I'd probably be advocating keeping dogs on short leashes in public and kicking dogs out of stores who appear to be a threat to other customers, not banning dogs in all places where your wife and her service dog might come in contact with them. It's a lot more reasonable and doesn't infringe on everyone else's rights so much. Keep in mind that everyone is potentially at risk of being attacked by dogs every day, nobody is taking for granted the fact that they're immune to dog attacks. Dog attacks aren't specifically directed at people with disabilities or people with guide dogs.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Who decides what a well behaved dog is? Who is the judge of whether each dog that walks through the door is well behaved? Who enforces the removal from the premises of dogs that are not well behaved? Who is to be held responsible when a dog that was judged to be well behaved has a moment where it acts like an animal and destroys a belonging or another creature?

I believe we already have laws that answer these questions in effect. According to current laws, a well behaved dog which is allowed total public access is called a service dog.

I continue to be confused as to the purpose of breaking this law. What benefit does taking a dog to a store or restaurant confer? Thus far, all I have heard is, "It is more convenient for the owner." I find it difficult to accept this as a valid reason for breaking the law. I mean, it would be more convenient if I could stay home from work and still draw a paycheck. It would be more convenient if I could just take clothes from the store instead of paying for them. It would be more convenient if I could run red lights when I'm late to work. Barring owner convenience, what makes breaking this particular law so worthwhile?


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> I continue to be confused as to the purpose of breaking this law. What benefit does taking a dog to a store or restaurant confer? Thus far, all I have heard is, "It is more convenient for the owner." I find it difficult to accept this as a valid reason for breaking the law. I mean, it would be more convenient if I could stay home from work and still draw a paycheck. It would be more convenient if I could just take clothes from the store instead of paying for them. It would be more convenient if I could run red lights when I'm late to work. Barring owner convenience, what makes breaking this particular law so worthwhile?


Wow, I've been following this thread for a while... but I have to point this out.. (not singling you out, Fillebelle, but since you mentioned it) how is bringing a dog into a store more convenient than leaving it at home??  Whenever I DO bring Cadence to the petstore, I find it much more troublesome than just going alone. He wants to sniff this and that, people keep stopping to talk to me, and I in general just can't shop in peace.

Hence, I never bring Cadence to stores anymore. Besides that, what if your pet poops/pees in the store? Or in the bag? I stepped on a piece of poop the other day at the petstore (DISGUSTING), and the stupid owner whose dog pooped did not even bother to pick it up!! (There are even poop bags located around the store)

So really.... I find it just much more convenient to leave my dog at home when I'm going to go shopping, eating, etc.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Just read the thread in its entirity... all 8 pages of it. And now I know why I won't be frequenting any toy dog forums.

But a general question to those with service dogs - are you against people taking dogs to public places, period? For example, Oregon is a relatively dog-friendly place. Employees at Home Depot and Lowe's have treats in their pockets for dogs, and I've been chased down by employees who want to praise and ask me about my dog. I've taken my dog to video rental stores, such as Blockbuster. There's no sign welcoming or restricting dogs from entering, and every single time, without fail, I will ask for permission to take my dog inside. Most of the time they allow it (with the exception of one time, when the cashier was biased against the GSD breed). Many there know Trent and will greet him. 

He's not disturbing anyone, but if he ever did, I'd immediately remove him. He doesn't mind sleeping at home, but I do admittedly enjoy taking him places with me for his companionship and the socialization. If I ask every time and get permission, is it disrespectful, to service dog owners as a whole, to do bring my dog places?


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Wow, is all I can say about some posts. RBark covered all my points better than I could've, so I won't bother. 

A very close family friend has a guide dog and she gets harassed EVERYWHERE. The poor woman! Starbucks asked her to leave her dog outside (he has a vest and harness, it's impossible to not know he's a service dog). Uhhh..ok, then how is she supposed to find her way back in the store? People are BEYOND ignorant about disability, and while it SHOULD be taught in school, you have the whole friggin internet at your fingertips. Go educate yourself.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

(raises hand) I will admit to carrying an 8 week old Puppy into a wal-mart, and everyone including employee's managers and the likes came over to make cutsie noises at the puppy. The puppy was sick and we were on the way home from the vet. I was 12 and didn't know better at the time, and mom said it was okay. And no one told us no. But I know better now and when my sister brought her own puppy home a few months ago we stopped at Wal-mart (Same one mind you) to get some things. She didn't want to leave puppy in car, and I told her I would stay in the car with the puppy while she got her things. She said it was okay because it was a tiny puppy, I again said no, either she left puppy with me, or I would take her and puppy home and then we would come back and get the supplies.

She ended up taking the Puppy in the store, and we had a big row about it.....

So what I'm saying is....do you all mind, if I print what some of you said out here so I can show her? Because she's still takes said Puppy to the store with her and I'd really like to get her to stop.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

luvntzus said:


> My dog doesn't shed and is enclosed in a purse. She's not getting hair on things anymore than an owner of shedding dog does walking around with hair on their clothes.
> 
> Also, are service dogs ever kept in purses? It seems like a service dog would walk on the ground. I don't see how there would be any confusion whatsoever.


I think the only confusion lies with you and Darla Giselle


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

pittsabowawa said:


> Hmm... since apparently purse dogs are acceptable (cough.. scarasm..cough) I guess it would be ok for me to put Bella in a roll around duffle bag and take her to walmart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After I got offline last night, I got thinking, could I put my Katie (13ish year old arthritic, hip dysplastic sheltie) in a piece of luggage that rolls so she can enjoy seeing people? 
You know, this thread led to being about service dogs and all the points are correct but it's not just about that, it's the fact someone breaks the law by bringing a dog in a purse, just because she can. My husband works at a high school and brought home the school newspaper, it is written by students so you have to take that into consideration but one article was about drug use at the school, apparantly they can search kids and lockers and some kids don't like it because their privacy is breached...it's school, drugs are against the law, it doesn't matter if anyone thinks certain drugs should be legalized, it's still against the law to have them or use them. While the next part has nothing to do with the legal law, it has to do with school rules: kids get their licenses and/or access to a car after the school year has started and they park at any available parking space, even if they don't have a permit. One kid was asked why he parked there and he said, it was the closest spot, too bad it was in the teacher's lot! This is the same thing here, DG thinks it's fine & dandy to take her dog anywhere she wants to. It doesn't matter that it's illegal, she wants to so she does.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> So.......what is it you want? My blind wife to have to go into each establishment she needs to do business in and ask them to sweep the premises for non-service dogs? Why do you think it is her responsibility to make sure that she will not have her Guide attacked by a pet dog when she is shopping? What next? Make her have to wear a yellow star on her clothing and show her papers so that she can do the things you take for granted every day?
> 
> She has the RIGHT (not privilege) to shop where and when she wants, without the fear of being treated differently or having to fear for her safety or the safety of her Guide. THAT is what this is all about. And what the law states.



I'm not saying that. But you don't think that you should no whether or not an establishment is dog-friendly and that there is a possibility that you may run across another dog?

For example, I brought Roxy into Kohls..a few days ago. There's no sign restricting pets, and I asked the manager upon entering (the first time we did it). The employees know Roxy and myself by name, because we are in there often. Last time, there was an SD dog. Handler and dog were walking around just fine, Roxy and I both saw him..but Roxy has no reaction to dogs, no bark no whine, nothing. She stays cuddled in my arms. As soon as I saw him, I walked away, I know not to disturb SD dogs. Handler had no problem with me, as she noticed my dog as well and smiled. Roxy is extremely well behaved, and I bring her because she is so well behaved. My pugs are also well behaved but easily excitable, hence why I do not bring them.

But that doesn't mean that the whole thing is idiot-proof. Not everyone cares whether or not their dog is well behaved, or knows how to act around handlers and their SDs. Therefore, that is why I think it is important for a handler to know whether or not they are entering a dog-friendly establishment.

Roxy ignores dogs, doesn't make a noise, and has never even attacked a toy. I don't see a problem with me bringing her into a dog-friendly establishment. As I said before, I check first..and will never bring her into a grocery-store. Does your wife walk your SD down the street? I mean, should I be banned from carrying her down the sidewalk as well because there's a risk she might disturb or attack her SD?

I agree that people should be more knowledgable about SDs. Not everyone knows to just leave them alone..Maybe a guide dog foundation should put out a public service announcement or something. But at the same time, if I can bring my perfectly behaved dog into an establishment that is dog-friendly, then I'm going to..


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## pandora (Mar 19, 2010)

I am lucky enough to have the time to devote to my dogs so I dont have to take them shopping and tie them up outside or drag them up and down the road looking for my new shoes..

I used to work in a large supermarket and whatever we tried there were always people who bought their dogs into the store...
So I was on the bakery dept and a woman holding a peke ordered a cream pie (vlaai) and asked for it to be sliced.I pointed out to her that dogs were not allowed in the shop and she retorted that a/ her dog was only small and b/ she didnt intend leaving outside to be stolen ..I sliced the pie and then as was the custom before closing the box I showed it to her for approval.
Just at that moment the peke sneezed all over the pie..
I calmly shut the lid handed her the pie and said ' thats why dogs, even small ones aren't allowed in the shop' 

She paid for the pie but I cant help wondering ....did she eat it?


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

pandora said:


> I am lucky enough to have the time to devote to my dogs so I dont have to take them shopping and tie them up outside or drag them up and down the road looking for my new shoes..


I have the time to devote to Roxy, as well, hence why she is such a well mannered dog..but I enjoy having her with me and she enjoys coming along. I also really hate to do things alone, don't know why, and it's been getting worse lately. She makes me feel more comfortable. I never have to tie her up outside, and I don't shoe-shop much.. =P lol, I only bring her to dog-friendly establishments though..and I'd never bring her anywhere that sold groceries, like Target or Walmart..etc.



> I used to work in a large supermarket and whatever we tried there were always people who bought their dogs into the store...
> So I was on the bakery dept and a woman holding a peke ordered a cream pie (vlaai) and asked for it to be sliced.I pointed out to her that dogs were not allowed in the shop and she retorted that a/ her dog was only small and b/ she didnt intend leaving outside to be stolen ..I sliced the pie and then as was the custom before closing the box I showed it to her for approval.
> Just at that moment the peke sneezed all over the pie..
> I calmly shut the lid handed her the pie and said ' thats why dogs, even small ones aren't allowed in the shop'
> ...


Hahaha, love that story, and I cringed a bit.. That's a reason why Roxy will never come into a store with groceries. I own two flat faced sneezers (the pugs) and ewww, they're not allowed near my food..


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## Eris13021 (May 16, 2009)

pandora said:


> I am lucky enough to have the time to devote to my dogs so I dont have to take them shopping and tie them up outside or drag them up and down the road looking for my new shoes..
> 
> I used to work in a large supermarket and whatever we tried there were always people who bought their dogs into the store...
> So I was on the bakery dept and a woman holding a peke ordered a cream pie (vlaai) and asked for it to be sliced.I pointed out to her that dogs were not allowed in the shop and she retorted that a/ her dog was only small and b/ she didnt intend leaving outside to be stolen ..I sliced the pie and then as was the custom before closing the box I showed it to her for approval.
> ...


that is just down right nasty..ewww factor!


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> It's a lot more reasonable and doesn't infringe on everyone else's rights so much.


OMG are you freaking kidding me????? You have absolutely NO rights being infringed upon here.

The disabled have the RIGHT to go to stores without being harassed for being disabled.

Understand this. Service Dogs are not Animals. They are not pets. They are equipment. A tool to allow Disabled people to have a SLIGHTLY better life, and still one that is not as easy and carefree as an abled person. 

It's not us "taking dogs to stores" because it's such a fun thing to do. It's us bringing hearing aids, replacement eyes, wheelchairs, crutches, and so on to stores. SO sorry that you don't get to take your dog to the store for fun!!!! It's not fun for us!! Rights being infringed on? Please, that's crazy talk. 

Just goes to show, yet again, that most people think Disabled people are sub-humans not worthy of common courtesy. You can manipulate it however you want, but that's exactly what you are saying with prettier words.

People will gladly lend a helping hand to the Disabled so long as they don't have to put effort into it, or it doesn't change their routine. But once it takes the most minor, insignificant change? A tiny, little one to make the lives of the Disabled so, so much better? People throw up a fuss about their rights being infringed upon.

Whatever.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Nargle said:


> I don't agree with this at all. I've taken my dog with me into many stores that weren't pet stores, and he's been welcomed warmly by employees. Home Depot, car shops, plant nurseries, recreational equipment stores, small mom'n'pop boutiques, etc.


Does no one actually read what I post?

I said EXCEPT where it's posted--SUCH AS PET STORES. I was giving ONE EXAMPLE!! NOT A WHOLE LIST!


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

RBark said:


> OMG are you freaking kidding me????? You have absolutely NO rights being infringed upon here.
> 
> The disabled have the RIGHT to go to stores without being harassed for being disabled.
> 
> ...


That's what I am trying to say. It's all fun and games to take your dog to the store, but there is no reason to. It makes it harder and harder for SD people to bring in their dogs. If enough people take in their personal pets (no matter the size) and one of them poops on the floor, the manager's won't know if it was the SD or the pet--making the manager leary of ANY animal that comes in.

I don't understand the fascination with taking the pets in. Our Rural King and pet stores allow the pets. That's one thing. But clothing stores? Come on. Why do they need to go in with you? Do they tell you that your butt looks great in that pair of pants?


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

My neighbourhood in Toronto is very pet friendly and dogs are allowed in many of the stores but not all. Home Depot, Canadian Tire, Staples,the local Shoppers Drug Mart and many of the smaller independent stores. We visit them all regularly (Cracker and I). But I do not make the assumption that each and every time is appropriate. If there is another dog in the smaller stores Cracker stays outside while I pop in or we don't go in at all. She is also not allowed to greet other dogs we do not know while out and about on leash, regardless of whether they are service dogs or not. If I am at a larger dog friendly store with her and I see another dog we detour. She is not reactive on leash unless the other dog is and is well behaved and trained, but that doesn't mean it is okay to have dog meets in stores. Period.

It is all about being considerate of others and of the rules. 

If I'm going somewhere I know dogs are not welcome. Cracker stays home (she's SA so this limits me) but that doesn't mean it's okay to take her everywhere all the time.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

It was nice that you informed and educated the employee but why didn't you do anything to educate the chi's owner? THAT would have more effect that just having her kicked out of a store in the long run wouldn't it?


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Also, what if her guide dog had been attacked on the sidewalk in front of your house? Would you think that dogs should be banned from all neighborhoods and all sidewalks?


Actually, it was on our own front porch. We have come to expect confrontations and attacks while in the neighborhood and when walking on public streets, which is why I carry pepper spray and a stun rod (and have used them) when we go places.
But....INSIDE business establishments is one place where the disabled and their service dogs SHOULD be safe from this. I cannot for the life of me understand why some here would advocate for placing the disabled and their service dogs in danger by insisting that "their" non-service dogs, which have had absolutely no public access training, are "safe" to be inside business establishments.
It takes, on average, 18 to 24 months to properly train and proof a service dog for the required tasks and access training. This is working with the dog an average of 6 days a week, for about 4 to 6 hours a day. Now, which dog owner in the general public population has shown that level of competency and dedication when it comes to their pet dog? Less than .00000001%, from the news, animal control, and police reports regarding dog attacks and nuisances. Not a stunning number.

Nope...pets belong at home. Neither the pet nor their owner have had the proper training to be inside business establishments.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Darla Giselle said:


> Well, this is the most legit question in this thread. Finally.
> 
> I, for one, don't go anyplace, really. The only places I have time to go to is school, home, extra-curriculars and tutoring, ect. That's it. Seriously, my spring-break started on Friday, and you know where I've been besides my classes, nowhere. I have 2 pre-calc online quizzes and a test to take on top of two essays and then I have to study for all the test I will be having next week because it is the end of the quarter. I have no timeeee for anythinggg.
> I'm really involved with my school, I'm there too much, it drives me crazy! But next year they even want Gigi to be the mascot for the yearbook club and be there in a "I love yearbook" T-shirt while we're selling the yearbooks in the front of the school on back-to-school-night. Now, that's good advertising, nobody will miss us then! LOL Gigi also goes to the outdoor games ie soccer, football because she is allowed. Gigi won't be going to any plays, unless she was in it. Don't worry, unfortunately there are no service doggies at my school.
> ...


Darla, you have me very confused. 

In one of your first posts, you stated emphatically that you take Gigi everywhere with you, which spawned all the emails about how selfish you are. Now you are saying to DO NOT take Gigi shopping with you because you wouldn't get anything done and that you stopped that ages ago!

In subsequent posts, you reiterated you would not stop taking her with you because she is in your purse and doesn't make a sound. So which is it?

I really hope that you take to heart everything that Xeph, RBark and Smithcat have said with respect to service dogs and the issues they have had with many establishments.

The bottom line is that Service Dogs are allowed EVERYWHERE, companion animals are not. Please take this into account the next time you want to put Gigi in your purse and take her with you to Walmart, Target or an eating establishment.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

I really am getting totally confused ....

Exactly WHEN did "rights" and "privileges" become confused or intermingled terms???? 

Kohl's may grant you the PRIVILEGE to bring your dog into the store, PappyMom ... that does not automatically make it a RIGHT.

Conversely, as it has been COUNTLESSLY explained ad nauseum within this thread, the disabled have the RIGHT to have their service dogs accompany them WHEREVER they go to provide assistance to them.

Your "rights" are not being infringed upon if you are not permitted to bring your dog into certain establishments, nor are mine, or countless others with companion animals that like to accompany their owners. However, the true rights of the disabled with service dogs ARE being infringed upon when this situation is taken so lightly and when you do not see things from any other perspective other than your own.

Personally, I am calling Kohl's headquarters today and asking if it is universally accepted for non-service animals to be welcomed into their establishments. Because, although I love my dog and wish I could take her everywhere I go, in my opinion it completely diminishes and disrespects service dogs and their handlers to expect that I should be able to do so because it's my "right", when it most certainly is NOT, and there is a LAW protecting those with service dogs who actually do possess that right!


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## BorderGal (Nov 29, 2008)

The unfortunate thing about this woman and people like her is they can do no wrong and they never see that this might be them. You could mail her the store policy, skywrite it above her house, write to Dear Abby and send her the column and any number of other things and she would say "oh...those people soooo annoy me". You can always train your dog but no such luck with many humans.


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## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

I love pet-friendly places. I like to see dogs and their owners together, service and non-service. Of course well-behaved is the key. Yes, I do agree that service dogs are a right, and non-service dogs a privilege. Does this mean that many service dog owners are weary of pet-friendly establishments and choose to avoid them?

Where I live quite a few people take their small, medium or large dog places. Dogs are welcome at my family's jewelry store (the showcases are high). I see them outside grocery stores, libraries, and other stores and restaurants. Unfortunately, I see many dogs waiting in the car, and it's a very warm/hot area we live in. Many outdoor public events welcome pets too, and there is a dog beach, dog park, and a myriad of pet-friendly hotels and motels, and a few pet-friendly restaurants.

I'm taking the dog I'm pet-sitting to a restaurant on Saturday. We know the owners, the restaurant welcomes pets outside. He will be leashed, and if he behaves badly, I'll have to take him back home (I only live a 3-minute walk away from this restaurant). He has a purse (his owner), and sometimes we transport him in it, like a crate. He doesn't own a crate, so I've had to transport him in a purse (but not at any establishments), but it's not my cup of tea at all. I actually am not interested in owning a toy dog because of pet sitting him  I have to be so careful not to hurt him or step on him.

That said, I think it's rude when people infringe on people's right of peace, quiet, and cleanliness. Well behaved dogs alone should be allowed. Well-behaved means: quiet, well trained, be people and dog friendly and be calm, not rambunctious. Owners needs to be responsible for pet at all times, clean up after him, and provide guidance and training in the event of a mishap. Also be able and quick to remove said pet should he break some of the aforementioned rules and become disruptive. 

Key West, which is only 2 hours away from where I live, is a very pet-friendly city. Dogs are allowed in many, many establishments, and seem to co-exist happily with service dogs and their owners based purely on my experience. In fact, I try to look for places to live that are pet-friendly and have a list going for pet-friendly places I can take my dog to when we get her. I've also read many books on dog training, and some of them say to try to take your puppy to many different places and have her gain as many experiences possible from 8-16 weeks, so that she will be well socialized. Some of them even suggest bringing them to the laundromat, grocery store, and other public places. To socialize, at least a tiny bit, like service dogs are socialized so more and more well-behaved dogs are welcome at more places. 

Everyone's tolerance level is different, however. There are some people that want to ban all kids from many public places!


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

wow..i don't even know where to begin on this one.

i feel that i need to comment on the previous statement of taking your dog wherever she wants to go. Frankly, I don't think a dog ever wants to go anywhere. my dog has never said "hey let's swing by costco this afternoon for a jumbo pack of slim jims and then hit up a toys r us." my dog would be just as happy sitting in my apartment sniffing the cats butt.

i think the issue that i have with it is that its one of mutual respect. i get frustrated by the assertion of "my dog is not bothering anyone"-that means it is not bothering YOU. you have no idea what is going through other people's heads. they may have severe allergies, or they may even just be petrified of dogs. i personally am not a fan of purse dogs anyway...whenever i see one in public i secretly hope the dog takes a dump in the purse...i digress.

with service dogs, i have not had much one on one experience, but I used to work at the art museum in philly, and one of the major points of training was regarding service dogs. they explicitly tell you to not approach a service dog. number one because it is working and number two its just plain rude. i think thats what bothered me most about xeph's story, that the woman not only was selfish enough to bring her dog into the store, but that she had the audacity to speak to you like you were just bringing your dog in for esses and giggles. 

i do have a question though for you xeph, rbark, and smithcat--i know that urban outfitters/anthropologie do allow leased pets in their stores. i' be interested in knowing your thoughts on this...is it okay for stores that specifically allow it, or should pets be limited only to pet stores.

(frankly i dont even like taking rosie to pet stores. its not my cup of tea to be carrying a 40 lb bag of kitty litter with a rambunctious lab pulling my arm out of the socket to say hi to everybody and everything.)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> But a general question to those with service dogs - are you against people taking dogs to public places, period?


No  Overall the issue is legality and safety for my service dog. Whenever Strauss and I go anywhere, he is immediately put at risk simply by stupid PEOPLE (as diligent as I am, people still do not pay attention, and he has been kicked, bumped/hit by carts, etc...things happen) and for him to be put further at risk because people want to bring pookums in? Well, that's unacceptable to me.

If a store is dog friendly, they are generally not breaking the law (many stores such as Kohl's are now selling wrapped candies though, so be aware), and as long as the dog is not ill mannered, I've no problem with them. Just stay out of the way of myself and my working dog. If your dog is proving to be a nuisance to me and mine, the manager is the very first place I'll go.

ETA:


> Does this mean that many service dog owners are weary of pet-friendly establishments and choose to avoid them?


Depends on the handler  Legally my dog is a piece of equipment. Biologically he is a living, breathing, sentient creature that still needs to have FUN! All pet stores are his "Fun places" and he NEVER ever has to wear a vest inside one. He is allowed to socialize and sniff and do as he pleases, as long as he maintains his manners. Strauss is not a robot. He is my partner and a very very important piece in my life, not only aiding me physically and mentally (legal tasks, mentally in regards to my anxiety disorder), but emotionally (non legal, does not count towards task training).



> is it okay for stores that specifically allow it, or should pets be limited only to pet stores.


I tend to want to look at the company policy as a whole first, before making any judgments, but otherwise? If they're well behaved, have at it.



> Make a law!


Have you not been reading? At all? *There is already a law. Bringing non-service animals into stores that only allow service animals is illegal!*


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

FilleBelle said:


> Who decides what a well behaved dog is? Who is the judge of whether each dog that walks through the door is well behaved? Who enforces the removal from the premises of dogs that are not well behaved? Who is to be held responsible when a dog that was judged to be well behaved has a moment where it acts like an animal and destroys a belonging or another creature?


How to the people at pet stores handle it? The people at Home Depot? The people at every store that allows dogs? It's not like I'm suggesting a new thing here, there have been business that allow pets inside for quite a while. When a dog is on a short leash and is under the control of its owner, there shouldn't be an issue of other dogs being attacked. Unless the owner WANTS a dog fight to happen, and then we have a completely different issue. And typically a dog that is lunging at the end of its leash and snarling at another dog is pretty obviously aggressive, and can be easily picked out by employees and escorted to the front door.



FilleBelle said:


> I believe we already have laws that answer these questions in effect. According to current laws, a well behaved dog which is allowed total public access is called a service dog.


Maybe not total public access, no, but there are plenty of well behaved pet dogs that should be allowed in public. 



FilleBelle said:


> I continue to be confused as to the purpose of breaking this law. What benefit does taking a dog to a store or restaurant confer? Thus far, all I have heard is, "It is more convenient for the owner." I find it difficult to accept this as a valid reason for breaking the law. I mean, it would be more convenient if I could stay home from work and still draw a paycheck. It would be more convenient if I could just take clothes from the store instead of paying for them. It would be more convenient if I could run red lights when I'm late to work. Barring owner convenience, what makes breaking this particular law so worthwhile?


Just to be clear, I'm not advocating that anyone break any laws.



RBark said:


> OMG are you freaking kidding me????? You have absolutely NO rights being infringed upon here.
> 
> The disabled have the RIGHT to go to stores without being harassed for being disabled.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how you're getting all of this out of my post. I never tried to define what a service dog is, and I never claimed that disabled people are sub-human in any way. I even stated that they shouldn't be treated differently for their disability. I don't understand why you are implying that I would say such things, that's actually very hurtful and I don't appreciate it.

When I speak of rights being infringed upon, I'm speaking of suddenly banning pets from stores that previously allowed pets. Smithcat implied that all pets should be banned from all stores.. even though there are tons of non-food related businesses that already allow pets. People who have been bringing their pets to certain stores for years should suddenly not be allowed to? Also, it's not always just "for fun." I would like to have Basil registered at a therapy dog one of these days, but until then, I have to desensitize him to various situations that he would encounter as a therapy dog. I don't have any "clubs" or "groups" to help me train my dog and expose him to a variety of situations, I rely on bringing Basil to certain stores that mimic common situations a therapy dog might encounter. I need loud, noisy machinery to mimic hospital equipment? I'll go to a hardware store or car shop, etc. etc. If that was suddenly all taken from me, how on Earth would I socialize my dog? All I would have would be outdoor places and the pet store. Obviously not a common environment for a therapy dog visit. Should I.. just give up all hope of my dreams of doing therapy work with my dog coming true? 

I also fail to see how bringing your average (non-aggressive) dog into a store is specifically hindering those with service dogs. I don't understand how bringing a service dog into a dog friendly store is SO terrible? A dog could bark at you? Well.. a dog could bark at me, too. A rude, inconsiderate person could let their dog run up and sniff your dog? Well, rude people exist independently of whether or not a dog is involved. That same rude person could just as easily be sending her rowdy, annoying kids over to "pet the doggy!" Should we ban all children from public? Or all rude people? I understand that being disabled and having a service dog comes with inconveniences, such as getting hassled by rude people.. be it rude people with dogs, rude people with children, or just generally rude people. This isn't a matter of "There was a dog and that's what cause the problem," though. It's a matter of people being ignorant about how to behave around service dogs and people just being inconsiderate in general. It's entirely possible for people with pets and people with service dogs to happily coexist, as demonstrated by Pappymom and others who try their best not to disturb service dogs while they're out with their own pets. 



Smithcat said:


> Actually, it was on our own front porch. We have come to expect confrontations and attacks while in the neighborhood and when walking on public streets, which is why I carry pepper spray and a stun rod (and have used them) when we go places.
> But....INSIDE business establishments is one place where the disabled and their service dogs SHOULD be safe from this. I cannot for the life of me understand why some here would advocate for placing the disabled and their service dogs in danger by insisting that "their" non-service dogs, which have had absolutely no public access training, are "safe" to be inside business establishments.
> It takes, on average, 18 to 24 months to properly train and proof a service dog for the required tasks and access training. This is working with the dog an average of 6 days a week, for about 4 to 6 hours a day. Now, which dog owner in the general public population has shown that level of competency and dedication when it comes to their pet dog? Less than .00000001%, from the news, animal control, and police reports regarding dog attacks and nuisances. Not a stunning number.
> 
> Nope...pets belong at home. Neither the pet nor their owner have had the proper training to be inside business establishments.


I've already explain to RBark how I feel about pets being allowed in stores, so I don't have to repeat it. However, I'd like to mention that it's very easy to train a dog to behave well in public. Saying that a dog has to be trained as a service dog before it should be allowed in public is frankly overkill in my opinion. Yes, service dogs need that much training in order to be useful in aiding a disabled person, but the average person is still completely able to train their dogs to a point where they should be fine in public. My dog might not be able to aid a disabled person, but he can certainly walk quietly beside me and not bother anybody. And I'm positive that my dog's not the only one. If your wife and I were in the same store with our respective dogs, I'm positive that her experience wouldn't be any different than if my dog and I weren't there at all, even though my dog isn't a trained service dog.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> When I speak of rights being infringed upon, I'm speaking of suddenly banning pets from stores that previously allowed pets.


But your rights are not being infringed upon. Non pet Stores allowing you to bring in Basil are offering you a *privilege*. It is NOT your right to bring in Basil. They can rescind their allowance of permitting non SD's to enter at *any time*. My right to enter can *never be revoked* with my service animal.

You have a right to shop in stores. Basil does not.



> Should we ban all children from public?


Yes


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

jbray01 said:


> Frankly, I don't think a dog ever wants to go anywhere. my dog has never said "hey let's swing by costco this afternoon for a jumbo pack of slim jims and then hit up a toys r us." my dog would be just as happy sitting in my apartment sniffing the cats butt.


LOL.

Actually, Bella does tell me she wants to "go" ... she just doesn't specify WHERE. She doesn't give a hoot WHERE, she just wants to GO. She honestly wouldn't mind just going around the block (it would have to be at least 20 times, though, so she would get the sense that she's actually GONE somewhere ). 

Thinking about this thread last night, I actually asked her if she wanted to go to Walmart (yeah, we talk ... so?) ... anyway, of course she said YES, but she doesn't know what the hell Walmart is, she just hears GO and she's all in!

And when she's bored is when she "tells" me she wants to go. She will sit in front of me, paw my face and chest and whine. When I stand up she runs to the door. When I open the door, she runs to the car. She definitely knows what GO means, and when she wants to go. But like I said, she doesn't care WHERE she goes.

And I seriously doubt these other dogs do either.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

jbray01 said:


> i do have a question though for you xeph, rbark, and smithcat--i know that urban outfitters/anthropologie do allow leased pets in their stores. i' be interested in knowing your thoughts on this...is it okay for stores that specifically allow it, or should pets be limited only to pet stores.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Xeph said:


> But your rights are not being infringed upon. Non pet Stores allowing you to bring in Basil are offering you a *privilege*. It is NOT your right to bring in Basil. They can rescind their allowance of permitting non SD's to enter at *any time*. My right to enter can *never be revoked* with my service animal.
> 
> You have a right to shop in stores. Basil does not.
> 
> ...


LOL, I was going to reply the same way to the banning children comment but I refrained.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Nargle said:


> When I speak of rights being infringed upon, I'm speaking of suddenly banning pets from stores that previously allowed pets. Smithcat implied that all pets should be banned from all stores.. even though there are tons of non-food related businesses that already allow pets. People who have been bringing their pets to certain stores for years should suddenly not be allowed to? Also, it's not always just "for fun." I would like to have Basil registered at a therapy dog one of these days, but until then, I have to desensitize him to various situations that he would encounter as a therapy dog. I don't have any "clubs" or "groups" to help me train my dog and expose him to a variety of situations, I rely on bringing Basil to certain stores that mimic common situations a therapy dog might encounter. I need loud, noisy machinery to mimic hospital equipment? I'll go to a hardware store or car shop, etc. etc. If that was suddenly all taken from me, how on Earth would I socialize my dog? All I would have would be outdoor places and the pet store. Obviously not a common environment for a therapy dog visit. Should I.. just give up all hope of my dreams of doing therapy work with my dog coming true?


Nargle ... the *ONLY* comment that I am going to make is with regard to Basil possibly becoming a therapy dog in the future.

There are training programs for therapy dogs. You do not have to take him to the Auto Lube and Home Depot in order to prepare him for Therapy Dog training, and comments related to that are simply preposterous and are fumbling for excuses as to why you need to be permitted to take him to these places.

The rest of your post where you expressed that you fail to understand how non-service dogs being in public establishments are disrespectful to service dogs and their handlers, and risks that it imposes, which have been countlessly explained numerous times over ... well, if you haven't gotten it by now, it's obvious you aren't going to.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

BooLette said:


> You're kidding me, right?
> 
> I really don't appreciate people bringing their dogs into stores with food or restaurants where I am going to be eating. That is plain RUDE.
> 
> People with service dogs are different and they need their animals with them for their own safety. You don't need to bring Gigi into places like that.


It's nit just rude, it's also against Health Department Codes. If it's not a pet store, the ONLY dogs that should be in a store/restaurant/amisment park are SERVICE dogs.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> Darla, you have me very confused.
> 
> *In one of your first posts, you stated emphatically that you take Gigi everywhere with you*, which spawned all the emails about how selfish you are. Now you are saying to DO NOT take Gigi shopping with you because you wouldn't get anything done and that you stopped that ages ago!
> 
> ...


1.) Yeah, when we travel places. You can't leave her anyplace. Otherwise, not really. I don't get out much except for school, and Gigi is allowed there. And there are no SDs. The main reason why my family ever got a little dog is because 1)they don't shed, 2)walking her isn't a life or death necessity, and 3)she won't stop us from traveling. 

2.) Find me a post where I've said that. 

3.) Go back and re-read my post. For the 543876565464386 time, I DO NOT take animals in places that carries grocercies. It violates sanitation laws. Unless the restaruant has outdoor eating, allow dogs big and small can go there then.
Walmart & Target will usually kick a dog out at the door. Maybe there rules are less strengent now. Who knows. 

I said what I said in my first post because I know what that "Lady with the Chi in her purse" would say. Since she's, and every other millions of toy breed owners, are not here to defend why they do what they do, I will. And no, it's not because PH or whatever famous star does it(seriously, society has been bringing little dogs everyplace with them since the 1800s. I was watching the movie Great Gatsby(1953, based the 1920s) in school and all of the high class women always had a maltese, papillon, pug under there arms everywhere they went. The main character went and bought a cute lab puppy just because of that but she didn't want him after he grew up because "he got too big". Seriously, who is PH, nobody cares about her. And no, most of them are not snarling, bad-mannered dogs. No, it's not becausse these darn dogs are accessories. Most of these dogs I've known are treated BETTER than _any_ child, I've known them to spend thousands for clothes and beds, furniture, have lavished homecooked meals daily. Seriously, if I die, I want to come back as a chihuahua. LOL You don't know why that dog is really there. Her house could've been fumigated(sp?). 
Xeph, don't ever go to Cali or NYC, you will see a little dog in *every* store but it's okay because most places allow them. 
*I'm NOT saying it's right. I'm NOT saying it's right. I'm NOT saying it's right.* 
What about airplanes? Why can't you all bring your larger breeds on there but they allow the smaller ones on? Why can't a dog over 20 pounds stay in a hotel on Times Square NYC(I've called every hotel on that street)? This is why little dogs are everyplace. So don't complain to me about societies' rules. 

And my name is BRIANA. DG is Gigi's official registered name.
K?
Thanks.
Bye.


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

I think some people are forgetting something important here...

Just because you have a well-behaved dog in public, who won't harm or hassle other people or dogs, doesn't mean everyone does. In fact, in my area, I'd say people well-behaved dogs are a vast minority. People here don't train their dogs. I can easily say that I have not met more than two handfuls of well-behaved dogs, and I worked at a freaking Petsmart for just over a year.

Again, just like in so many other issues, it's the idiots screwing things up for everyone. Maybe if the mass majority of people had public-friendly, well-behaved dogs, this wouldn't be nearly such an issue, but as it stands, it's a huge issue, and as such, it remains illegal to bring your companion animals into establishments unless you have express permission.

Anyway, I'm sorry, Xeph, that you guys had a rough time, and I'm sad to see that this thread (as well as many other SD-related threads) has turned into such a debate...I, for one, have brought a pet inside a store with me where it was illegal, once, because I didn't quite know it, and it was my kitten when he was a week old. He needed new bottle nipples, I think...something important. Thankfully my mother had walked up to the store with me, so that when they told me he couldn't stay inside with me, she was able to go and find what we needed for him, and I could sit outside. We hadn't taken the car up there, hence why I'd brought him in with me, and I sure as heck couldn't leave him outside by himself, haha.

But yeah...I don't think I'd ever want to bring a dog shopping with me anyway. I would think it would take too long to do what I needed to do, what with all the having to stop and sniff, and what if it peed on something...Ooh, no thanks.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Should be ban all children from stores? Should we only allow the well-behaved ones?

Misbehaving children and misbehaving dogs are different situations entirely. The same thing would happen though if both were brought to a store and asked "Is your child/dog well-behaved?". The parents/owners would always answer "Yes, my perfect child/poochie woochie is always well-behaved."

Well, you can't stop people bringing ill-mannered children to the store, but you can prevent risking people's health over your dog! 

If your dog disrupts the work of a SD then YOU ARE IN THE WRONG. 

Do you know what would make life easier? If EVERY INSIDE PLACE forbade ALL PERSONAL PETS. Yep, you heard me. Leave the dog at home. Take your dog to the park, beach, around the block, wherever...BUT DON'T bring it to the store.

I love my dog to pieces but it's not a necessity to take him shopping. I will admit that I have taken him to a pet store before. But NO WHERE else. EVER. My last dog went to work with me everyday...because I worked AT A PET STORE! 

I don't want my PRIVILEGE of owning a dog to infringe on the RIGHT of those with disabilities to have a service dog. If me taking Scrappy to the store would be a hinderence, then HOME he will stay.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RBark said:


> Just goes to show, yet again, that most people think Disabled people are sub-humans not worthy of common courtesy. You can manipulate it however you want, but that's exactly what you are saying with prettier words.


Wow.

So I wonder if I'm part of the "most" that think disabled are sub-human?

I'm not saying people should just bring their dogs where ever, but I also don't think that people who do are saying "teh disabled are teh subz-humanz11!!1!" either.

That logic doesn't follow.

And as far as being up-in-arms about changes that "favor" the disabled - I don't see any problems with any of the "extras" disabled get because I know it doesn't make up for all the things that the "able" world is set up for.

But I really don't see how views on dogs = views about disabled people.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

jinnyretr0 said:


> What a cruddy experience! Sucks that you and strauss had to deal with somebody's stupidity. That is something I loathe about living out here in southern california, everyone who has a small dog carries their dog into every store imaginable!
> Free the purse dogs!


LOL agreed 100% I see a lot of purse dogs in stores too, like Vons  its like really you came in to grab something and you have to bring you dog with you?!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> Misbehaving children and misbehaving dogs are different situations entirely. The same thing would happen though if both were brought to a store and asked "Is your child/dog well-behaved?". The parents/owners would always answer "Yes, my perfect child/poochie woochie is always well-behaved."


Which is why you don't ask. You observe behavior and if it doesn't follow the standard you have in place - ask them to leave.

Why ask? Behavior is observable and is there in black and white. Act on what can be observed, not what someone things about the behavior of dog/kids.

And it's not necessarily the different situation. I've seen kids mess with service dogs before. I guess because they are "little humans" the rules are different. Makes no sense to me. The employees saw it and said "they are just petting the dog" when I brought it to their attention. Gotta love different rules based on species. A kid petting and bothering a service dog is fine, but if a dog was sniffing the nose of a service dog - out he goes. I think both should be asked to leave - bothering a service dog is bothering a service dog.

Bad behavior is bad behavior. The only difference is in the expression of that behavior.

I don't believe in uniformly banning anything. I believe on use case-by-case observable behavior. If that behavior is against the policy of where ever, then act on it accordingly.

As far as banning all dogs from private places - that would work, but again, I'm not for that. Why remove the dogs that act well (again use observable behavior not ask the owner) along with those that shouldn't be in places even where dogs ARE allowed?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Her house could've been fumigated(sp?).


Board it.


> Xeph, don't ever go to Cali or NYC, you will see a little dog in every store but it's okay because most places allow them.


Been to NYC. Didn't see little dogs everywhere in every store. Wouldn't want to go to Cali...too sunny. I don't have an issue with little dogs, I have an issue with people thinking they have a right to take them everywhere (stores) when they don't.



> Why can't you all bring your larger breeds on there but they allow the smaller ones on?


It's a simple matter of space. Strauss is allowed to ride in cabin with me because he is a service animal...but he only fits in one spot, and that's the bulkhead. That means that I must displace any other person that had the bulkhead seat unless they are willing to give up their foot room for my Mouse.

You clearly don't get it. You ARE selfish and spoiled, and beyond insulting. Your little dog can travel because of convenience. GREAT! *She still does not have public access rights*.


----------



## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

infiniti said:


> Kohl's may grant you the PRIVILEGE to bring your dog into the store, PappyMom ... that does not automatically make it a RIGHT.



I never said it was a right, Kohl's has the right to remove myself and Roxy from the premises if she isn't behaving... I'm merely granted permission to bring her into the establishment because she is well-behaved and leashed (although I carry her.) She does not use the store as a toilet, she does not bark at home, at the store, at other dogs etc..and she is completely calm and friendly. 

I'm not bringing a psycho dog in there that's freaking out about everything, and I agree that should not be allowed. But if a dog-friendly establishment says Sure, you can bring your dog in, then I'll do it. If they ask me to leave, I'll do it. No big deal.

As said before, I avoid SD's. When I worked at Target, we were told to leave them alone at all costs, even when assisting the handler. I know better, and I walk away. Roxy could care less about the other dog. She's always focused on me..and if not for her tiny size would probably make a great SD for someone as well. 

Not only with SDs, but if someone looks even mildly afraid or concerned that Roxy is there, other than an employee, I walk away.

RBark, thanks for letting me know that Kohls is now starting to sell candies. I will call my local store and ask if we are still permitted. As said before, I will not bring her in a store where groceries are permitted, nothing worse then paying big bucks for some deli meat or fruit, getting ready to consume it and finding someone else's dog's fur on it! gross!

Roxy and I are a polite, well mannered duo. I cannot say the same for everyone who brings their dogs into a store, but I can speak for myself..and I do think that it'd be foolish to not allow a dog that behaves as Roxy does into a store. I'd totally advocate if someone wanted to kick Gizmo out of a store though..his manners are sucky. LOL

I'm still all about the public service announcement regaurding proper manners when you see an SD. I think I'll pass along the idea to Fidelco, or something. If more people knew how to act around an SD and handler, I think things would go much smoother..

And honestly, if Roxy, like the chi in the OP's post, was growling for any reason..I'd leave. Something obviously made her uncomfortable, and a growling dog makes people around uncomfortable. I don't believe in allowance for tiny dogs to be aggressive acting because 'it's soo cute'. Dogs are dogs. 

For the record, Roxy's only been in a purse once for a picture.. =P I've never taken her out in one, ever. She's always in my arms, and as said before, I'm a nervous wreck doing things out alone..Roxy makes me feel comfortable, so when I need to get out, I opt to take her places where she's allowed.

And for the person who said the dog could care less. I disagree. Roxy knows the difference between 'going out' which is yard, walks etc..and 'shopping!' which is straight to the car! hahaha. Maybe she just thinks it's a car ride..but the word makes her excited!


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

> You clearly don't get it. You ARE selfish and spoiled, and beyond insulting. Your little dog can travel because of convenience. GREAT! *She still does not have public access rights*.


How do I not get it? I don't bring my dog everyplace?I'm sure I've said that 7687766557 times by now... I never said anything about SDs. DUH they are allowed everyplace. Clearly, you kind went the "beyond insulting" too. But its okay, two wrongs make a right. That's how the world learns.


----------



## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Wow.
> 
> So I wonder if I'm part of the "most" that think disabled are sub-human?
> 
> ...



Views on dogs = views about disabled people because those who bring their dogs ILLEGALLY into stores/shops/restaurants are being disrespectful/ignorant of the needs of disabled people. They NEED their service animals with them. They are an extension of them. By bringing dog sillegally into stores, it puts the disabled handler and dog in danger, it undermines the importance of their service dog, and provides reason for store/shop/restaurant owners to be skeptical of service dogs and handlers. The more dumb ass people who illegally bring their dogs into stores, the more likely it is that laws will be passed to identify those with/needing service animals and put MORE barriers in place for them to access public spaces. The disabled community needs that like a hole in the head. Such laws will also continue to emphasize their "difference", which leads to discrimination, subordination and idiotic ideologies and stereotypes.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Darla Giselle said:


> How do I not get it? I don't bring my dog everyplace?I'm sure I've said that 7687766557 times by now... I never said anything about SDs. DUH they are allowed everyplace. Clearly, you kind went the "beyond insulting" too. But its okay, two wrongs make a right. That's how the world learns.


Really?



> The comments at the beginning of this thread....
> 
> I BRING MY DOG IN PURSES ANYWHERE SHE WANTS.


Change your story much?


----------



## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Xeph said:


> You clearly don't get it. You ARE selfish and spoiled, and beyond insulting. Your little dog can travel because of convenience. GREAT! *She still does not have public access rights*.


I would hate to see her need a service dog at some point in her life and because of her and people like her she can no longer safely bring her SD in.

Unfortunately, her life revolves around herself..therefore she should have the same rights as those who NEED a dog to help and those that WANT to have their dog "socialized". *UGH*

I am going to keep working with my daughter on this. I am going to continue to teach her that dogs in the stores are SDs and that they are not to be petted. I will also teach her that dogs don't have to go shopping. I would hate for her to think like others on this!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Darla Giselle said:


> 1.) Xeph, don't ever go to Cali or NYC, you will see a little dog in *every* store but it's okay because most places allow them.


 
BS, the ONLY places you see dogs with people in Cali are those places that have been deemed pet friendly. Most stores here will ask you to remove your dog if it's not a service dog. NONE of the amusment parks/zoos allow personal pets, you also cannot bring them into a city/county/state building and only a few outdoor parks allow them outside of designated areas. Yes, ther are Outdoor Malls where they are allowed, but NOT the indoor ones and you still have to read the outside of the stores as many do NOT allow the pets inside. The only time a personal pet is allowed in an eating establishment here is if they have an outside dining area. Don't ASSume that what you see on TV is real, nor what happens in Beverly Hills or Hollyweird (those places are VERY small), Califiornia is far more like the rest of the nation than you think.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

BooLette said:


> Really?
> 
> Change your story much?


Really what? How is the "selfish" part when I'm speaking for the millions of purse dog owners out there when I barely ever do it? I'm really wanting to see some "spoiled" examples when you haven't met me, don't know what I look like, don't know where I live, ect. And "beyond insulting", the only person I truly insulted was jog-dog, so I AM NOT really the one thats doing the insulting in this thread. REALLY. 

I didn't change my story, I just wasn't as descriptive as I should've been. But that's why I said the next post after that one.

Actually this is what we saw when we went to Cali before Gigi. Little dogs were everywhereeee. THat's why I said that about Cali.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Darla Giselle said:


> How do I not get it? I don't bring my dog everyplace?I'm sure I've said that 7687766557 times by now... I never said anything about SDs. DUH they are allowed everyplace. Clearly, you kind went the "beyond insulting" too. But its okay, two wrongs make a right. That's how the world learns.


You don't get it because you do not seem to understand how bringing a dog that is NOT a service dog into stores that say 'NO PETS ALLOWED' harms services dogs and their handlers. You do not seem to grasp the fact that disabled people have to face the humiliation of being followed (like Xeph), refused access (like my friend), and questioned because of people who BREAK THE LAW and bring their dogs into stores.



Darla Giselle said:


> Really what? How is the selfish part when I'm speaking for the millions of purse dog owners out there when I barely ever do it?


Why on Earth would you speak for them?? Why would you support such morons?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Darla Giselle said:


> Really what? How is the "selfish" part when I'm speaking for the millions of purse dog owners out there when I barely ever do it? I'm really wanting to see some "spoiled" examples when you haven't met me, don't know what I look like, don't know where I live, ect. And "beyond insulting", the only person I truly insulted was jog-dog, so I AM NOT really the one thats doing the insulting in this thread. REALLY.
> 
> I didn't change my story, I just wasn't as descriptive as I should've been. But that's why I said the next post after that one.
> 
> Actually this is what we saw when we went to Cali before Gigi. Little dogs were everywhereeee. THat's why I said that about Cali.


 
If you bring your dog into MY place of work and it's not a SD, you WILL be asked to leave. YOU may have been in the tourist areas on your visit to Cali, but I'm talking about the day to day places where that actual RESIDENTS go.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Locke said:


> You don't get it because you do not seem to understand how bringing a dog that is NOT a service dog into stores that say 'NO PETS ALLOWED' harms services dogs and their handlers. You do not seem to grasp the fact that disabled people have to face the humiliation of being followed (like Xeph), refused access (like my friend), and questioned because of people who BREAK THE LAW and bring their dogs into stores.


I do understand that, you won't see Gigi shopping with me everyplace. And for the 98988989896675746645278757 time, I don't bring animals in places that don't allow them! If I've ever bought her in a place its because the places let me because it was legally to do so. geeez.
I defended them because they do NOT know what they are doing is wrong. Now if you all ever meet another purse puppy, you know what to say if they don't understand, like I didn't at first.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I defended them because they do NOT know what they are doing is wrong.


Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> . And "beyond insulting", the only person I truly insulted was *jog-dog*, so I AM NOT really the one thats doing the insulting in this thread. REALLY.


My username is Jo*d*-dog. Oh, and I do appreciate being the only one that you "truly insulted". Thanks.

You have been insulting to the people that use SD's because of your views. I could care less that you think you insulted me. It's the others that really tick me off!


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.


It's also not a reason to defend them! Ack! It's like if I were to defend a little kid for shoplifting because they didn't know it was wrong.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Darla Giselle said:


> Really what? How is the "selfish" part when I'm speaking for the millions of purse dog owners out there when I barely ever do it? I'm really wanting to see some "spoiled" examples when you haven't met me, don't know what I look like, don't know where I live, ect. And "beyond insulting", the only person I truly insulted was jog-dog, so I AM NOT really the one thats doing the insulting in this thread. REALLY.
> 
> I didn't change my story, I just wasn't as descriptive as I should've been. But that's why I said the next post after that one.
> 
> Actually this is what we saw when we went to Cali before Gigi. Little dogs were everywhereeee. THat's why I said that about Cali.


Your views that you are entitled to take your dog anywhere are insulting in and of themselves. You are entitled to NOTHING. As far as defending Purse dog owners, not knowing thye are doing wrong is no excuse, however I can tell you most of them DO know, they can READ the signs that say no dogs allowed. They don't care enough to follow the rules. I've seen it time after time working retail and asking them to take their dog home, most get downright belligerent about it, like you they think they're entitled to have their dog there.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> No
> If a store is dog friendly, they are generally not breaking the law (many stores such as Kohl's are now selling wrapped candies though, so be aware), and as long as the dog is not ill mannered, I've no problem with them. Just stay out of the way of myself and my working dog. If your dog is proving to be a nuisance to me and mine, the manager is the very first place I'll go.


That is so funny.  After all this of you saying that pet dogs shouldn't be allowed in stores, now you're saying that as long as the store allows it, it's just fine with you. All of what you said about other dogs being a hazard for you and your dog, etc. etc. goes out the window, because the store owner allows it. That makes no sense. If you you have such a problem with other pet dogs being around service dogs, then it seems you would be upset that pet dogs were allowed in stores at all and advocate against that in all situations.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Jod-dog said:


> My username is Jo*d*-dog. Oh, and I do appreciate being the only one that you "truly insulted". Thanks.
> 
> You have been insulting to the people that use SD's because of your views. I could care less that you think you insulted me. It's the others that really tick me off!


I love your sarcasm. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic when I say that either. Oh, and now I want to apologize to you, I couldn't yesterday, it's just that I'm very defensive of Gigi and that's what made me "go offffff" but she is a "toy" breed. Can't argue with you there.

A lot of this thread just doesn't make sense anymore but I want to apologize to everyoneeeee else that thought my views were that "the Chihuahua Lady in Target was okay". It's NOT right! Those are my views. But with my parents, that may be different... but thats an entirely different story.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Some people are really good at missing the point.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

luvntzus said:


> That is so funny.  After all this of you saying that pet dogs shouldn't be allowed in stores, now you're saying that as long as the store allows it, it's just fine with you. All of what you said about other dogs being a hazard for you and your dog, etc. etc. goes out the window, because the store owner allows it. That makes no sense. If you you have such a problem with other pet dogs being around service dogs, then it seems you would be upset that pet dogs were allowed in stores at all and advocate against that in all situations.


Actually it wasn't Xeph that said pet dogs shouldn't be allowed, it was someone else. Get your facts straight.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

BooLette said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> Change your story much?




Actually, somewhere in this convoluted thread, I do remember Briana aka DG indicating that when at home, she doesn't take Gigi anyplace really. 

It's mostly when they travel, which they do alot, she takes Gigi with them when they are out and about because whatever hotels they have stayed at do not allow the dog to remain unattended in the room.

To clarify, Briana is a teenage girl who is very active in her school activities, many of which Gigi has become active in as well. Apparently, Briana primarily takes Gigi to school-related functions where she is permitted to be and pet-friendly places, and the rest of the time she is either home with Gigi or her mother babysits Gigi when Briana is out with friends.

When they travel, which to be fair, it's outside Briana's control as she is a kid and does not control the destinations or lodging arrangements, they do take Gigi with them and that is when Gigi is the "dog about the town" with Briana.

As a kid, Briana has truly not understood the significance of service dogs and their handlers and I do believe this thread has been enlightening and educating for her.

Honestly, I have become more offended by those who think it's their right to take their dogs anyplace they please without regard to service dogs and their handlers' rights and protections under the law, or the possible risks they impose by bringing their companion animals where they aren't supposed to be, not to mention the confusion they can cause store clerks in determining what dog belongs and what dog does not. 

Further, I am even more concerned because these people don't seem to be grasping the significance of their actions nor are they becoming educated by this thread in the least, even though the laws have been printed out for them, links have been offered, different perspectives have been given by numerous users. It's truly baffling to me.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> I love your sarcasm. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic when I say that either. Oh, and now I want to apologize to you, I couldn't yesterday, it's just that I'm very defensive of Gigi and that's what made me "go offffff" but she is a "toy" breed. Can't argue with you there.
> 
> And I want to apologize to everyoneeeee else that thought my views were that of the Chihuahua Lady at Target. It's NOT right! Those are my views. But with my parents, that may be different... but thats an entirely different story.


Personally, I'm glad that you have a precious pooch that is well-mannered enough to go everywhere with you. 

However, it doesn't make it right. It just makes life harder for others.

(I accept your apology. Now, I hope you accept mine. I don't know you personally and calling you a brat wasn't nice of me. I was basing it off thing you said previously.)


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> That is so funny.  After all this of you saying that pet dogs shouldn't be allowed in stores, now you're saying that as long as the store allows it, it's just fine with you. All of what you said about other dogs being a hazard for you and your dog, etc. etc. goes out the window, because the store owner allows it. That makes no sense. If you you have such a problem with other pet dogs being around service dogs, then it seems you would be upset that pet dogs were allowed in stores at all and advocate against that in all situations.




It was *I* who said companion animals should not be allowed in public establishments pursuant to laws that are currently in place.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Darla Giselle said:


> 1.) Yeah, when we travel places. You can't leave her anyplace. Otherwise, not really. *I don't get out much except for school, and Gigi is allowed there.* And there are no SDs. The main reason why my family ever got a little dog is because 1)they don't shed, 2)walking her isn't a life or death necessity, and 3)she won't stop us from traveling.


Wait. What. You dog comes to _school_ with you? 



> And my name is BRIANA. DG is Gigi's official registered name.
> K?
> Thanks.
> Bye.


The internet, being a largely anonymous medium, has a tendency to call people by their screen names or "handles." It's not being rude to call you not by your name, which most people do not know, it's being polite.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Darla Giselle said:


> I do understand that, you won't see Gigi shopping with me everyplace. And for the 98988989896675746645278757 time, I don't bring animals in places that don't allow them! If I've ever bought her in a place its because the places let me because it was legally to do so. geeez.
> I defended them because they do NOT know what they are doing is wrong. Now if you all ever meet another purse puppy, you know what to say if they don't understand, like I didn't at first.


Backpedal, twist words, pad the story & lie...Very typical but I wonder why these young people think it isn't obvious & transparent when they do so...Some of us have been around the block a few times Sunshine.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> All of what you said about other dogs being a hazard for you and your dog, etc. etc. goes out the window, because the store owner allows it.


Bologna. If it's a private store, while they are still subject to federal laws, overall there is not a lot I can do. That said, I mostly patronize national chains, as that is what is available to me....and company policy is generally "no pets". They're still a hazard for me and my dog, and with the exception of pet stores, I avoid places that allow such.

I don't patronize Urban Outfitters, or Home Depot, or even Lowe's unless I need a key made...and even then I prefer to go to the feed store down the way instead of driving 30 minutes into Fredericksburg 

I have no problem with pets being where pets are (legally) allowed, but I don't want to see them in Walmart, Target, Kohl's or the grocery store.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Actually it wasn't Xeph that said pet dogs shouldn't be allowed, it was someone else. Get your facts straight.


I'm not going back through all the posts, but she did say that other dogs shouldn't be in stores because they could distract her service dog.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Wait. What. You dog comes to _school_ with you?


Just to certain events, mostly outdoor ones. I ask permission first always from whoever is in charge. But she's been in the school in after school hours. Somedays for yearbook, I have to be at the school at 8am on Saturdays! She has made lots of friends that way. Many teachers and friends who "hated dogs" or "were afraid of them" don't hate them anymore because of Gigi! She's even made friends with a toy poodle and japanese chin that come to many events too. LOL Then after that we go do something more dog-like LOL


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Darla Giselle said:


> A lot of this thread just doesn't make sense anymore but I want to apologize to everyoneeeee else that thought my views were that "the Chihuahua Lady in Target was okay". It's NOT right! Those are my views. But with my parents, that may be different... but thats an entirely different story.


& oh yes...Throw in something about your parents which has nothing to do with this thread or what you've said previously in an attempt to further confuse people into thinking you didn't say or mean what you said.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I'm not going back through all the posts, but she did say that other dogs shouldn't be in stores because they could distract her service dog.


You bet I did. I have enough trouble dealing with kids that have "honky nose hand" without worrying about Sugar Muffin snarling like a rabid lemur in a person's purse.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> They're still a hazard for me and my dog, and with the exception of pet stores, I avoid places that allow such.
> 
> I don't patronize Urban Outfitters, or Home Depot, or even Lowe's unless I need a key made...and even then I prefer to go to the feed store down the way instead of driving 30 minutes into Fredericksburg
> 
> I have no problem with pets being where pets are (legally) allowed, but I don't want to see them in Walmart, Target, Kohl's or the grocery store.


You're changing your story. Below you said that you're fine with the dogs being in stores as long as they stay out of your way.



Xeph said:


> If a store is dog friendly, they are generally not breaking the law (many stores such as Kohl's are now selling wrapped candies though, so be aware), and as long as the dog is not ill mannered, I've no problem with them. Just stay out of the way of myself and my working dog. If your dog is proving to be a nuisance to me and mine, the manager is the very first place I'll go.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You're changing your story. Below you said that you're fine with the dogs being in stores as long as they stay out of your way.


And I really should have reiterated stores that DO NOT HAVE FOOD. Wrapped candies are food. But then, as I said before, I don't patronize places such as Urban Outfitters or Lowe's, etc.

Story is the same, but with clarification. Though I'm sure you'll still take dear Honey Bun wherever you please


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> Backpedal, twist words, pad the story & lie...Very typical but I wonder why these young people think it isn't obvious & transparent when they do so...Some of us have been around the block a few times Sunshine.


Young and old alike do this. I'd consider myself young, and took offense..(well sort of, as much offense as I can take on the internet.. =P) Had to say that the older generation are culprits of lying, twisting words, backpedaling and story padding as well. =] Anything to cover one's own behind.. (And personally, I like behinds covered. =P)


I needed to lighten the thread up a little.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I like behinds covered.


We all do, PM. We all do.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Xeph said:


> We all do, PM. We all do.


To be honest Xeph, I wouldn't mind Johnny Depp's behind uncovered.. =P Just sayin!!


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

If nothing else happens, cover all behinds!


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

PappyMom said:


> Young and old alike do this. I'd consider myself young, and took offense..(well sort of, as much offense as I can take on the internet.. =P) Had to say that the older generation are culprits of lying, twisting words, backpedaling and story padding as well. =] Anything to cover one's own behind.. (And personally, I like behinds covered. =P)
> 
> 
> I needed to lighten the thread up a little.





Xeph said:


> We all do, PM. We all do.





PappyMom said:


> To be honest Xeph, I wouldn't mind Johnny Depp's behind uncovered.. =P Just sayin!!



Johnny Depp's behind...yummy...*wiping drool off chin* OH...*sigh*


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

I find that mine looks better covered, so why not!? hehe. =]


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> To be honest Xeph, I wouldn't mind Johnny Depp's behind uncovered.. =P Just sayin!!


I would. Plumbers crack...yucky no matter who it is.

My wife might not mind.....if it was in Braille. (Now THERES a good mental image, eh?)


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

PappyMom said:


> Young and old alike do this. I'd consider myself young, and took offense..(well sort of, as much offense as I can take on the internet.. =P) Had to say that the older generation are culprits of lying, twisting words, backpedaling and story padding as well. =] Anything to cover one's own behind.. (And personally, I like behinds covered. =P)
> 
> 
> I needed to lighten the thread up a little.


You are right of coarse...It does happen in all age brackets...Maybe it's just that the younger people aren't as believable because they aren't as good at it yet...lol!
Anyway, no offense intended PappyMom!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> My wife might not mind.....if it was in Braille. (Now THERES a good mental image, eh?)


Smithcat wins the thread.

Again.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> I would. Plumbers crack...yucky no matter who it is.
> 
> My wife might not mind.....if it was in Braille. (Now THERES a good mental image, eh?)


Hahaha, Smithcat, I literally LMAO'd. That was fantastic.



GypsyJazmine said:


> You are right of coarse...It does happen in all age brackets...Maybe it's just that the younger people aren't as believable because they aren't as good at it yet...lol!
> Anyway, no offense intended PappyMom!


That's true. I'm pretty good at it though..  I guess I must've started young to have mastered it by 20! Hehe. And Gypsy, I could never take real offense to your posts, you could be like, PAPPYMOM, I HATE YOU.. And I'd just be like..err..awww, look at those cute Pyr! And forget everything that was said. =]


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

PappyMom said:


> Hahaha, Smithcat, I literally LMAO'd. That was fantastic.
> 
> 
> 
> That's true. I'm pretty good at it though..  I guess I must've started young to have mastered it by 20! Hehe. And Gypsy, I could never take real offense to your posts, you could be like, PAPPYMOM, I HATE YOU.. And I'd just be like..err..awww, look at those cute Pyr! And forget everything that was said. =]


PappyMom, You made me smile...Thanks!


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Smithcat said:


> jbray01 said:
> 
> 
> > How many pets or their owners have had ANY kind of public access training?
> ...


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

God, I am beyond disgusted with this thread.

You have SD owners, multiple of them, telling you how you bringing your dogs to stores hurts them.

And instead of respecting that, you look EVERYWHERE you can for justification. "Oh, it happens outside too!" "Oh, they let us in!" "Oh, blah blah blah!"

This makes me sick to the stomach.

If a large group of minority told me I could do a thing so minor as leave a dog home in order to make the lives of thousands I don't know better, it would be a complete no brainer. The dog stays home.

There is no justification. Attempting to justify it DOES mean you think they are not worthy of respect, and DOES mean you think of them as less than equal to you. Absolutely no justification whatsoever.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

RBark said:


> You have SD owners, multiple of them, telling you how you bringing your dogs to stores hurts them.


Agreed. Not only that, but multiple non-SD owners who DO in fact understand and appreciate the law and the significance trying to explain it all from a non-SD perspective and STILL several of you try to justify it.

Insane. Completely insane.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Darla Giselle said:


> The comments at the beginning of this thread....
> 
> *I BRING MY DOG IN PURSES ANYWHERE SHE WANTS*.


Darla, this was the post I was referring to where you said you take Gigi everywhere. Since she canNOT tell you where she wants to go, YOU are taking her anywhere YOU want.

Oh, and for calling you Darla (even tho it's Gigi's "first name") it's the general rule on here to call people by there online name. My name is Becky but everyone here knows me as Alpha or Alphadog. No one means any offense, it's just the way it is. 

I can honestly say, I only know the "real" name of a handful of people on here. Couldn't tell you what RBark's name is or Xeph (although I'm sure I've seen it somewhere) or Boolette or Covertune or Smithcat. So please get over your teenage self. I generally have no problems with teenagers (I was one myself), but you are certainly trying my patience.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Johnny Depp's butt in Braille?

Hmmm....you mean I would HAVE to put my hands on it. Gee, what a bummer.

*BIG SIGH* *closing eyes to dream about "reading" his butt...

*ahhhhhhhh*


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Smithcat said:


> My wife might not mind.....if it was in Braille...


That's too funny!


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## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> Smithcat said:
> 
> 
> > Just a thought.. What if we (the general public) COULD get public access training? What are your thoughts about training facilities offering a "Public Access Training" class, just the same way they offer obedience and agility classes?
> ...


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

CoverTune said:


> Smithcat said:
> 
> 
> > Just a thought.. What if we (the general public) COULD get public access training? What are your thoughts about training facilities offering a "Public Access Training" class, just the same way they offer obedience and agility classes?
> ...


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> Johnny Depp's butt in Braille?
> 
> Hmmm....you mean I would HAVE to put my hands on it. Gee, what a bummer.
> 
> ...


The problem with "Braille butt reading" is that if you come across a pimple or two.....changes the whole meaning of what you were trying to read......throws off the characters that represent letters.

Ack! I am thinking about this entirely too much.


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

Smithcat said:


> The problem with "Braille butt reading" is that if you come across a pimple or two.....changes the whole meaning of what you were trying to read......throws off the characters that represent letters.
> 
> Ack! I am thinking about this entirely too much.


Aaaaahhh, mental image RUINED....


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Smithcat said:


> First off, the big question would be "Why". Why would one want to take their pet to Blockbuster, the local Ace Hardware store, or the mall? What is the impetus behind the desire?


Because we want to incorporate our dogs into our lives as much as possible. It's also good socialization for the dog.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Smithcat said:


> The problem with "Braille butt reading" is that if you come across a pimple or two.....changes the whole meaning of what you were trying to read......throws off the characters that represent letters.
> 
> Ack! I am thinking about this entirely too much.


I am LMAO!

That's great. You feel his butt and suddenly he is cussing you out. What's that about? LOL

TOO FUNNY!

I guess I will stick with a mental image as opposed to a physical image!


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Smithcat said:


> CoverTune said:
> 
> 
> > Thinkin' is never a bad thing.
> ...


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## ipreferpi (May 9, 2009)

I'm sorry that the whole evil-chi-target-purse thing had to happen at all. This whole tiny companion dog in store thing has gotten absolutely out of hand with people. It's astounding how individuals who are not disabled don't even consider the inconvenience they might be causing another person. 

The reason a lot of the small dog in purse faction gives for taking their dog everywhere with them is "oh she just can't stand to be home alone". It blows my mind how they don't see separation anxiety as a sign of emotional distress in a dog, and a behavior that needs to be addressed and worked with. Nor do they ever seem to understand that their barking, shaking, tiny dog is likely very uncomfortable in the public setting they've just been placed in. I've heard people say how they wish they could take their big dogs into stores with them, just like the small dogs. In my opinion I feel bad for the little purse dwelling monsters, they rarely ever get to be dogs. Their owners are too obsessed with dressing them up and taking them out like living baby dolls to understand these dogs are dogs. I second the previous poster who said "free the purse dogs". Let them be outside on the ground, where dogs belong, and keep the stores clear for the dogs doing their jobs.

Interesting side note, the rite aid next to my work has told me on multiple occasions that I can bring my dog in the store (the workers there love him). He's my demo dog for my classes, he's passed his AKC good cit, and we're working on therapy work. I still refuse, he's not a service dog, I'm not disabled, and he doesn't belong there. I got to say that loudly once, inline in front of a woman with a chi-weenie-bo-beenie-ect in her bag, made my freakin' day 

*In response to the Siberian wearing clothes, I say this on behalf of my dog who is a sibe mix: The day my boy wears clothes is the day my cold dead body is put in the ground.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

ipreferpi said:


> I'm sorry that the whole evil-chi-target-purse thing had to happen at all. This whole tiny companion dog in store thing has gotten absolutely out of hand with people. It's astounding how individuals who are not disabled don't even consider the inconvenience they might be causing another person.
> 
> The reason a lot of the small dog in purse faction gives for taking their dog everywhere with them is "oh she just can't stand to be home alone". It blows my mind how they don't see separation anxiety as a sign of emotional distress in a dog, and a behavior that needs to be addressed and worked with. Nor do they ever seem to understand that their barking, shaking, tiny dog is likely very uncomfortable in the public setting they've just been placed in. I've heard people say how they wish they could take their big dogs into stores with them, just like the small dogs. In my opinion I feel bad for the little purse dwelling monsters, they rarely ever get to be dogs. Their owners are too obsessed with dressing them up and taking them out like living baby dolls to understand these dogs are dogs. I second the previous poster who said "free the purse dogs". Let them be outside on the ground, where dogs belong, and keep the stores clear for the dogs doing their jobs.
> 
> ...


Very well said!


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## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> Smithcat said:
> 
> 
> > I've asked this several times and haven't gotten an answer other than, "Owner convenience." As I understand it, it is easier to pick out movies, power tools, and etc with a dog in attendance.
> ...


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I have no problem with pets being where pets are (legally) allowed, but I don't want to see them in Walmart, Target, Kohl's or the grocery store.


I think that almost all of the small dog owners in this thread agree with you on that. Most everyone seems to realize that there are laws banning all non-service animals from grocery stores, restaurants and the like, and I think only one person (or maybe two people) in this entire thread was arguing that they should be able to bring their dog into such places. Most of us would never dream of sneaking our small dogs into a restaurant. 

As for why some of us bring our dogs to stores... well, I can only speak for me. I actually rarely take my papillon into stores (and never in a bag; I will walk her or carry her in, because she is a real dog and not a purse pet). I find it harder to shop with her along, because I either have to carry her or hold the leash, meaning both my hands aren't free. If I take her into a store, it is almost always because I am on vacation, have been walking around/riding the subway with the dog all day and want to stop in somewhere quickly, and our hotel isn't anywhere close. I can't tie her outside, especially in a big city, because of her small size (she could easily be hurt or stolen). We don't enter any place that sells unwrapped food or has a no pets sign. I always ask if it's okay to bring her in. She ignores all customers. We've never run into a service dog, but if we did, we would stay away from it and its handler -- it would be like we weren't even there. I understand that bringing my dog into a store is a privilege, not a right, and I do my very best to make sure my dog behaves perfectly so we can continue to have that privilege. I don't think that people like me are a problem. 

However, I _do_ understand the points being made in this thread. Many of us here at DF really care about training our dogs properly and making sure they're well-behaved in public. Many others, the "general public," do not. Unlike us, many of them don't know or care if any given store is dog friendly or if their dog is even legally allowed to enter. Those are the people who make shopping more difficult and even dangerous for the service dog owners and give all of us small-dog owners a bad name. I can't even imagine the crap you have to deal with, but I can understand why some of you wish that non-service animals were banned from _all_ retail establishments.

This isn't the case, though -- some stores do allow pets. I know some of you are suggesting that we stop bringing our well-behaved small dogs into these dog-friendly places, even if we keep our dogs away from service dogs and their handlers and don't cause anyone problems. Would this actually help, and if so, how?


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> CoverTune said:
> 
> 
> > Thinkin' is never a bad thing.
> ...


----------



## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Smithcat said:


> The problem with "Braille butt reading" is that if you come across a pimple or two.....changes the whole meaning of what you were trying to read......throws off the characters that represent letters.
> 
> Ack! I am thinking about this entirely too much.


Well, Johnny Depp would never have a pimple on his gorgeous behind.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> If I have a well behaved dog, who likes to accompany me, and who's company I enjoy, and does not infringe on others, why not?


Because it does infringe on others. In this case, the disabled.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Smithcat said:
> 
> 
> > The question should normally be "why not" in my book.
> ...


----------



## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> Well, Johnny Depp would never have a pimple on his gorgeous behind.


Hmmm...never took that into consideration.

Dont think I will, either.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

RBark said:


> Because it does infringe on others. In this case, the disabled.


How, though? A badly-behaved dog might growl at a service dog, yes. Some store owners may have had to deal with so many badly-behaved dogs in their stores that they now hate seeing ANY dog enter, and might harass people with service dogs because of this. These are both bad things, and people with badly-behaved dogs should be ashamed of the trouble they've caused. But if the few of us with well-behaved dogs* all agreed to stop taking them into pet-friendly stores, how would that help? The uncaring people with untrained dogs would still take them into these stores, but then they'd be the _only_ dogs (besides service dogs) that the store owners and customers ever saw. This could make them even more likely to harass people with legitimate service dogs, because they'd assume all dogs were trouble. I think that someone with a well-behaved dog can actually set a good example. 

* "Well-behaved" may be subjective to the general public, but I think that most of us here could agree on what type of dog is not a nuisance at a store and what type is. And we're talking about _us_ here... people who care so much about training and socializing their dogs that we regularly post at a dog forum. We're asking why _we_, people who know what behavior is and isn't acceptable, should avoid places where our dogs are welcomed -- how do we, specifically, hurt the disabled by being there? I'm not trying to be antagonistic -- I really just don't understand how someone with a dog who ignores other people and dogs, does not eliminate on the floor, and will not even be allowed near a service dog in the store is hurting you.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> * "Well-behaved" may be subjective to the general public, but I think that most of us here could agree on what type of dog is not a nuisance at a store and what type is.


By setting a bad example for other non service dog owners who are not nearly as good a judge of dog behavior as some people here.

By making the decision of what "good behavior" is up to the store owners, who, the vast majority of the time, have no clue what is normal dog behavior, and therefore not know which dogs are inappropiate and which are.

Because for every time that indirect action happens, and a bad owner learns from it, comes in, well.... read Smithcat's post above of what is a daily occurance in the life of the disabled.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Hm. I understand that by bringing our dogs into a store, that could make some other shopper think, "Hey! I want to bring MY dog in here, too," and result in them bringing their badly-behaved dog to the store. I'm sure it does happen occasionally, but I tend to think that most of these people don't need an excuse to take their dog with them -- if they haven't trained the dog well and it has SA, or if it's a purse pet that they think of as an accessory, they're going to take it wherever they want, regardless of who else is doing it.

I definitely see what you're saying, though, and I respect your opinion. Thank you for the reply... and I am truly sorry that you (and the others with service dogs on this thread) have to deal with so much crap.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> * "Well-behaved" may be subjective to the general public, but I think that most of us here could agree on what type of dog is not a nuisance at a store and what type is. And we're talking about _us_ here... people who care so much about training and socializing their dogs that we regularly post at a dog forum. We're asking why _we_, people who know what behavior is and isn't acceptable, should avoid places where our dogs are welcomed -- how do we, specifically, hurt the disabled by being there? I'm not trying to be antagonistic -- I really just don't understand how someone with a dog who ignores other people and dogs, does not eliminate on the floor, and will not even be allowed near a service dog in the store is hurting you.


You yourself said well behaved is subjective. What you consider well behaved, someone else may not. I know mine really aren't. Yours probably is. 

But there are those who think theirs is that really isn't, at least in *my* opinion (or yours). One bad one can spoil it for others; better to be safe than sorry and not allow any dog that is not an SD.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> The problem with "Braille butt reading" is that if you come across a pimple or two.....changes the whole meaning of what you were trying to read......throws off the characters that represent letters.
> 
> Ack! I am thinking about this entirely too much.


rofl, there goes my ice tea!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Whew. This is quite the thread..

At the risk of being thought rude, insensitive and a scofflaw..
I will continue to take my dog to stores that welcome pets. I will continue to ascertain whether there are other dogs in the store (if a small establishment) and wait or go somewhere else. I will continue to avoid SDs and their handlers as I have always done as I do understand that they are "on the job" and are not pets in that capacity. 

I will also continue to educate puppy owners on what having a well behaved/well trained dog should look like so that we will continue to be allowed in these pet friendly establishments. 

And if I see someone's dog or owner being a jerk I will report them as well. 

(ducks head)


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Smithcat said:


> CoverTune said:
> 
> 
> > The idea of a "Public Access" title for pet dogs is not without merit. The folks who are serious about their dogs, and who are already taking proper health, training, and behavior measures with them, would do whatever was required for this; while those who just want to drag their precious little Fluffums along for the ride would not be as dedicated to the goal if the requirements are set too high (but would still try to sneak them in anyway).
> ...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> You yourself said well behaved is subjective. What you consider well behaved, someone else may not. I know mine really aren't. Yours probably is.
> 
> But there are those who think theirs is that really isn't, at least in *my* opinion (or yours). One bad one can spoil it for others; better to be safe than sorry and not allow any dog that is not an SD.


I agree with this, somewhat. In non-food stores that welcome pets, they really are leaving it up to the owner to decide whether or not their dog is well-trained enough to enter. I know that mine is, so, like Cracker, I will probably still take her into stores where she's allowed (although, as I said earlier, this is a rare occurrence, usually just on vacations). I know that my dog is not going to make things worse for someone with a service dog. Sadly, I can't do anything about the jerks... that part is up to the store. I think that if stores don't want to deal with leaving things up to each individual owner, they should have a blanket "no pets" policy (which would of course not apply to service dogs). Then people with service dogs would know they could shop without running into any pet dogs, and those of us who respect the rules would not enter with our pets. 

Inga, I think (HOPE) that almost everyone in this thread agrees that NO pet dog, hidden in a purse or otherwise, should be taken into places where it is illegal to have a non-service animal. I know that I, and many others, have specified that we will only take our dogs into stores where they are actually welcome. I am as appalled as you are by the people who think they are above the rules just because their dog is tiny.

Also, I have learned a lot about service dogs and their handlers, and the struggles they face, from this thread and the other one linked earlier. Thanks to everyone for being so candid and and informative.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Inga said:


> I was actually shocked and horrified reading so many selfish, rude, inconsiderate comments on this thread. Even after SD people made it clear as to why it is wrong and how it impacts them people still insist that they should and WILL continue to bring their dog where ever they want to. Legality didn't seem to be an issue for these folks either. As if NOT SEEING a crime being committed somehow makes it legal.
> 
> If I can't see the dog stuffed into the purse in a "no dogs allowed" area it is not illegal.
> 
> If I can't see the murder being committed it is not illegal? Does this really make sense to anyone?


Astounding, isn't it?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Huge thumbs up to Inga! I'd love to see Carsten and Oliver in a Target before that Chihuahua any day!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Huge thumbs up to Inga! I'd love to see Carsten and Oliver in a Target before that Chihuahua any day!


And I suppose it would make you smile to see me struggling to carry them around in my purse too.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

I saw someone with a small dog in their purse at the mall today!!!

I thought "what in the world!"


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

TxRider said:


> The question should normally be "why not" in my book.
> 
> Whenever anything approaching right or privileges is at question.
> 
> ...


Why not? Because it makes life for people with disabilities more difficult and puts public health and safety at risk. Hasn't that question been answered repeatedly?

Civil rights are the freedoms which allow you, as a citizen, to participate in the political life of the state. Whether or not you can bring a dog into a clothing store has nothing to do with civil rights.

Your dog likes to accompany you...to the local boutique? Or does your dog just like to get out of the house? I suspect the latter, in which case the dog's desire could be satisfied by a trip to the park (dog or otherwise) or a walk around the block. 

You enjoy your dog's company...but only at the home supply store? Surely you could enjoy your dog's company in your backyard.

What benefit comes from bringing a dog to Blockbuster or Home Depot or etc? I simply don't understand the purpose.

Europe has been thrown up as an example of the perfect dog-ownership climate a couple of times in this thread. I've lived in Paris and it isn't quite as different as it is perceived to be. Dogs can always be at the outdoor portion of a restaurant (as in the US) and some allow them indoors. Dogs are not allowed in food stores or open air markets which sell food. They are not allowed in museums. Dogs can be on the Metro and bus if the dog is fully enclosed and on the RER if they're fully enclosed or leashed and muzzled. Only about half the hotels I've encountered allow pets at all and many of those have a weight restriction. Taxi drivers seem to be able to make a personal decision about whether or not dogs ride in their cabs, although I'm not totally sure what the actually law is about that. There is certainly a different attitude toward animals in Europe, but the laws are very similar and, at least in Paris, fairly strictly enforced. In fact, it seems to be the Bike Cops' new job to look out for pet-owners breaking the law. I have witnessed on several occasions a Bike Cop literally leap out from behind a wall or shrub and issue a citation to someone walking their dog off-leash or failing to pick poo of the rue.

I'm also seeing some remarks about small dogs being everywhere in California. I was born and raised in LA. Live there currently. I have never seen small dogs in shopping or eating establishments in the neighborhoods I frequent. They are upper middle-class places concerned with neat appearances and safe experiences for their customers. Bichons in the Beverly Center? Absolutely no way would they allow anyone to bring a dog anywhere near the priceless merchandise or very picky people in that place. I have, on the other hand, seen many purse pets in chain retail locations in neighborhoods with lower socio-economics. Chihuahuas at the Compton Target? A regular occurrence. As someone who has lived in Southern California for roughly twenty years, I feel fairly comfortable saying that dogs in retail establishments here (meaning that this is not necessarily true elsewhere) are the mark of a low-class and uneducated pet owner.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Inga said:


> And I suppose it would make you smile to see me struggling to carry them around in my purse too.


I tried to imagine myself trying to stuff Bella into a rolling piece of luggage just to take her to Macy's with me. The visual image of trying to force a Rottweiler into a giant purse or rollaway suitcase had me laughing so hard I almost pee'd my pants! LOL 

Bella is FAR from "designer dog" material! LOL She looks pissed as hell in the picture my daughter sent me of her wearing a tiara yesterday!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

infiniti said:


> Bella is FAR from "designer dog" material! LOL She looks pissed as hell in the picture my daughter sent me of her wearing a tiara yesterday!


But she was just as cute as any designer dog that I have ever seen.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Inga said:


> But she was just as cute as any designer dog that I have ever seen.


Why, thank you Inga! 

You know, my daughter saw me posting on here the other day and saw your signature and said, "Hey that picture looks like Bella!"


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

I know something else you big dog owners can't do.. =P Not only can she fit in my purse, but is currently sleeping atop my chest..and I can walk around with her on them, like effortlessly..she's not even slipping off! Try that one with your Great Dane.. (OUCH.). Bahaha. Just figured I'd lighten the thread again, it was getting heated!! 

And everyone already knows my POV. =] But check it out. I don't even need a purse. She's got her own personal throne. =P LOL


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Huge thumbs up to Inga! *I'd love to see Carsten and Oliver in a Target before that Chihuahua any day!*


I totally agree! Or Strauss  And I have learned to never ever EVER go up to an SD in a store. I have asked before, but have now learned that even that is a distraction. I will just admire them from afar. Thanks to Xeph, RBark and Smithcat for the invaluable lesson. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks...so to speak.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I can't remember who was asking about Canadian laws but.. I'd say that you guys in the US are lucky that you can have your dogs at outdoor restaurants, from my experience in Toronto, dogs were NOT allowed on the patios - nor can I think of anywhere in BC or Alberta that I've seen dogs "out to lunch" with their people on a restaurant patio.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> I know something else you big dog owners can't do.. =P Not only can she fit in my purse, but is currently sleeping atop my chest..and I can walk around with her on them, like effortlessly..she's not even slipping off! Try that one with your Great Dane.. (OUCH.). Bahaha. Just figured I'd lighten the thread again, it was getting heated!!
> 
> And everyone already knows my POV. =] But check it out. I don't even need a purse. She's got her own personal throne. =P LOL


Ha! Gotcha on this one!
The Guide pup we are raising just turned 12 months......is 68 lbs.....26 inches tall.....and 38 inches long (not counting the tail). He is not a Labrador...he thinks he is a Lap-rador, and will crawl up on us as we are sitting on the loveseat watching TV. He stretches across both of us. Comfortable as all get out.


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## Wynpyp (Sep 19, 2008)

I've never seen a dog in any outdoor patios in any restaurants where I've lived. I've lived in the lower-mainland of Vancouver, Edmonton and now Grande Prairie.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CoverTune said:


> I can't remember who was asking about Canadian laws but.. I'd say that you guys in the US are lucky that you can have your dogs at outdoor restaurants, from my experience in Toronto, dogs were NOT allowed on the patios - nor can I think of anywhere in BC or Alberta that I've seen dogs "out to lunch" with their people on a restaurant patio.


That was me... and wow, really? I ate lunch on several outdoor patios with my papillon when we were visiting Toronto (I asked if it was okay every time and it was at every restaurant we tried). The places weren't busy, so she wasn't close to any other customers -- not sure if she would have been welcome if the patios were crowded. My waitress at one of the places absolutely loved her and asked if she could take her home, haha. We were also able to go on the subway and streetcars during certain times of the day without her having to be confined in a bag (I checked the rules before we went). We also went into a few non-food shops (toy store, one or two clothing stores) and she was welcome. The only place we got kicked out of was the Church of Scientology -- I ducked into their lobby to answer my cell phone, not realizing what the building was!


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## mrslloyd09 (Jul 12, 2009)

I just have to know, what's so hard about following the law? My girls are small enough but I'm not allowed so I don't. 

Plus, I started learning about guide dogs in kindergarten (twenty some years ago); how, in today's world, do people not know how to behave around a service animal? 

My mom is horribly allergic to dogs and it drives me bananas when I see them in Walmart or the mall. I don't care if it's in a purse - dander gets airborne! Obviously, there will be service animals but if I see one more Yorkiepoo in the cart with one of those germ cart protectors that you have for toddlers, I'm going right up to the person and ask, what disability to you have?


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> That was me... and wow, really? I ate lunch on several outdoor patios with my papillon when we were visiting Toronto (I asked if it was okay every time and it was at every restaurant we tried). The places weren't busy, so she wasn't close to any other customers -- not sure if she would have been welcome if the patios were crowded. My waitress at one of the places absolutely loved her and asked if she could take her home, haha. We were also able to go on the subway and streetcars during certain times of the day without her having to be confined in a bag (I checked the rules before we went). We also went into a few non-food shops (toy store, one or two clothing stores) and she was welcome. The only place we got kicked out of was the Church of Scientology -- I ducked into their lobby to answer my cell phone, not realizing what the building was!


LMAO! Ya, doesn't look much like a "church" does it?

Subway and street cars and buses were fine with my dogs (although I think you're not "supposed" to take them on during peak hours), and I popped into a couple stores in my neighbourhood with them.. but never the patios.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

Having clothes or a carrier for your dog has NOTHING to do with being irresponsible or how you treat your pet.

Does romeo have clothes? he sure does. hes comfortable in them, and so what? I think they are cute. 

I got a small dog because they are EASY to travel with. but when I say travel, I DO NOT mean I take him into stores, I mean AIRLINE travel. Romeo does not get toted around with me everywhere, because its rude to other people and yes, people with small service dogs or any service dogs DO get crap because of it. Not to mention that bad stigma it creates for small breed owners... 

He is an excellent traveler and he knows to stay in her carrier and be quiet. but that doesn't make it OK for me to take him places where dogs aren't allowed. 

He has clothes and he has a carrier..that doesn't mean I think hes an accessory or that I take him everywhere... that is just another negative stigma CAUSED by the people that do break the rules by bringing their small dogs into places they aren't allowed. 


Romeo has been inside a pharmacy ONCE, we were at the airport and he was in his carrier and i started getting stomach pains. the girly kind. I was was about to get on a flight and was in white shorts, so I went in, TOLD the people that my pet dog was in the bag and if it was ok just this once in the name of a girly emergency for me to grab some tampons. 

Difference? I wasnt HIDING HIM. I told them he was a PET DOG and that this was an emergency and I just needed to grab somethings. 

and for the record. Yes, Romeo is a chihuahua. and he is a sweet, smart and very nice dog. Chihuahuas get a bad rap because of bad breeding and what PEOPLE turn them into.

so once again..A cute carrier has *NOTHING* to do with what people choose to do with it. Romeos carrier is NEVER used as a way to "sneak" him anywhere, he has legs lol and when possible, I let him use them. but in airports, obviously, he needs one. 

and having clothes for your dog has nothing to do with them being badly treated or an accessory. Romeo loves wearing stuff.. plus its freezing in connecticut, he needs a sweater in the winter. 



besides, Romeo would hate being taken to walmart or other places like that in a bag lol I think hed rather be at home with his toys than forced to be quiet and lie down while I shop 
I think training ur dog to enjoy alone time and be OK with you leaving is part of dog ownership...

its fun to take my dog places, and I enjoy it and consider it a priveledge  try to embrace pet stores, outdoor patio restaurants and other doggy fun places with your pet instead of trying to bring him/her places where it just isn't allowed.

Oh and being a cheerleader doesnt have anything to do with it either..but thats a whole nother subject about generalizing and stereotypes. cheerleader =/= selfish spoiled brat. I was a cheerleader all thru highschool, still would be if I didnt mess up my ACL. its a great sport that I love and I am certainly not a brat..


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

I didnt read the entire thread, as it's quite late, so bear with me if the point was already brought up...but how is bringing a dog in a store in a bag socializing it? if no one knows it is there, I assume the dog is tucked into the bag. I don't think that hearing sounds muffled through a bag material is doing much socializing... 
I have a 4 lb dog who would likely fit in a purse, but I'm not about to put her in one. The only store she's been into is the pet store. I adore my small dogs, but I don't need to bring them to every store I go into.


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## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

I don't like having dogs in bags either. I'd rather have a crate for car travel, but this is all I was given to dog sit the Yorkie. I put him on a leash as much as I can, and he walks and runs around the house. Personally, I'm not interested in owning a tiny breed like that.. Maybe only when I'm too old and feeble for bigger dogs.

That said, I would never take my medium sized dog inside a public place without asking first, if there were no signs. If it were illegal, no.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> LMAO! Ya, doesn't look much like a "church" does it?
> 
> Subway and street cars and buses were fine with my dogs (although I think you're not "supposed" to take them on during peak hours), and I popped into a couple stores in my neighbourhood with them.. but never the patios.


The TTC allows dogs on leash on the subways/buses during non peak hours but in the outskirts (Mississauga) they require muzzles.
Dogs are not allowed in large malls like the Eaton Centre but each smaller mall has it's own rules, a lot depending on the area of town it is in and who runs the mall. 
The only definite "dog rules" are no dogs in eating establishments/restaurants and restaurant patios and stores that sell "grocery" type foods. Dogs are welcome on Starbucks patios because the patios are not table waited. So it can be a bit all over the place. But TO in general is pretty dog friendly.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I have asked before, but have now learned that even that is a distraction.


We were at Walmart yesterday and some woman said "I know he's in training" (no, he's not) "but can I pet him."

"No, he's working."
"But when I'm in the mall the people training their dogs let me pet them."
"It depends on the handler, but I prefer for my dog not to be touched while he's in his vest. He shouldn't be talked to either."

She managed to look insulted and said "under her breath", "I don't know how a dog can live without being touched."

Ok lady, look, he's *working*. He's not there for you to freaking love on. When he's at home or out and about with no vest on, he can socialize as much as he wants, but my safety depends on my dog paying attention to me, not having his ears rubbed by YOU!

On top of that, we were in the middle of the grocery section. People fuzzle him and send hair flying everywhere. How is that fair?! Ew!

Strauss is allowed to shake once out of the car, to settle his vest, and in the enclosed lobby. He is never allowed to shake while we're shopping. I wouldn't want unknown hair on my clothes or food. Why would anybody else?


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## Eris13021 (May 16, 2009)

I've taught my kids not to ask to pet the services dogs and i explained about the K9 unit too. I have told them that the dogs are working and that they have to pay attention to their person. So my kids understand but i know some other parents that allow their kids to run up the the service dogs. 

on the subject of dogs in stores. If its not allowed dont do it. plain and simple.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Xeph said:


> "But when I'm in the mall the people training their dogs let me pet them."


This is just idiotic. Did she think this insipid argument was going to really change your mind? 

What one person may do, another person may not. What don't people get about that? 

And what gave her the disillusion that he was in training??? 

As for her "under the breath" comment; I may have just countered with my own: 

"I don't know how some people can go through life with half a brain!"


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> She managed to look insulted and said "under her breath", "I don't know how a dog can live without being touched."
> 
> Ok lady, look, he's *working*. He's not there for you to freaking love on. When he's at home or out and about with no vest on, he can socialize as much as he wants, but my safety depends on my dog paying attention to me, not having his ears rubbed by YOU!


Yup! That is one of the biggest misconceptions. We heard that all the time from people when training the service dogs. We started inviting people out to the kennels so they could see the process, taking dogs to schools and "training kids and teachers" about service animals.

Many people just think that the dog has a horrid life, having to work 24/7 what they do not know is that the service dog is a dog at home and gets to run around and play like any other dog. More education is needed, that is all.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Inga said:


> Yup! That is one of the biggest misconceptions. We heard that all the time from people when training the service dogs. We started inviting people out to the kennels so they could see the process, taking dogs to schools and "training kids and teachers" about service animals.
> 
> Many people just think that the dog has a horrid life, having to work 24/7 what they do not know is that the service dog is a dog at home and gets to run around and play like any other dog. More education is needed, that is all.



Besides, don't working dogs...like to work - as if it was programmed in them to have a job and perform it?

Heck, they say that about dogs in general, they are programmed to have some job. 

I would think a service dog is probably loving his life. Not only does he get to be in all different places (even if he can't physically interact, he's still taking in the scents and sights I bet) but he knows his life his a purpose and fulfills a role for his handler.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

KBLover said:


> I would think a service dog is probably loving his life. Not only does he get to be in all different places (even if he can't physically interact, he's still taking in the scents and sights I bet) but he knows his life his a purpose and fulfills a role for his handler.


Absolutely! They are lucky dogs, they get to go everywhere with their much loved person. Yes, they have to work but most of these dogs are interested in their person more then pats from strangers anyway.

Strauss for example is all about Xeph. Strauss likes a few people who have managed to get close to him over the years and tolerates others but he LOVES his mama and works only for her.

I believe most dogs would be happier if they had a purpose in life. I know my dogs are. They get pretty darn sick of just sitting around the house.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Strauss likes a few people who have managed to get close to him over the years and tolerates others but he LOVES his mama and works only for her.


BINGO!

Dave, Kathy, Cathy, and Candee are Strauss's big four (he will do things for Erin too, but admittedly, still needs some coercion xD), and he will work for any and all of them...if they have food that is good enough. He will aso obey children (sans food LOL), but at the end of the day, he's my dog. He's made Dave look foolish a time or two because he excels at certain things, so Dave decides "We'll use Strauss as an example!" and then Strauss won't perform because I'm not telling him to do it. Instead he spends his time trying to get back to me *ROFLMAO*



> And what gave her the disillusion that he was in training???


I'm not blind. Don't you know that the only service dogs are guide dogs? 

My overall biggest pet peeve is that people think that you can still TALK to the dogs.

No. No you can't. Do not baby talk to my dog. That is actually MORE distracting.

My dog has been taught to ignore various bumps, shoves, and touches. Those are easily blown off. It's REALLY hard to ignore the person making kissy noises directly in your face however (it happens frequently...and it's usually adults >.<).


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Sort of a side-note, but just curious here...

Aren't stores like Home Depot usually pet-friendly? I've seen a number of dogs in our HD, and I seem to remember a cute video of Red's Gracie being trained in a HD (not trying to point fingers here at all...just curious). I'm not sure I'd attempt such a thing with Kit, mostly because she'd be so interested in everything that it would take me twice as long to get the stuff I needed.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Two years ago, when I was working on getting Alvin certified as a therapy dog, I called my local Home Depot to ask that question. The person who answered the phone referred me to the corporate consumer hotline. I called and was told unequivocably that only service dogs are allowed in their stores, nationwide.

Now, that WAS two years ago, so policy may have changed, but that's the only for-sure info I have on Home Depot.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Eris13021 said:


> I've taught my kids not to ask to pet the services dogs and i explained about the K9 unit too. I have told them that the dogs are working and that they have to pay attention to their person. So my kids understand but i know some other parents that allow their kids to run up the the service dogs.


That's exactly what I am teaching/have taught my daughter.


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## Eris13021 (May 16, 2009)

Jod-dog said:


> That's exactly what I am teaching/have taught my daughter.


I know one gentleman who has a guide dog who will sit for hours and tell you about his many dogs he has had-he is a senior-his current dog is a sweet heart.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Xeph said:


> We were at Walmart yesterday and some woman said "I know he's in training" (no, he's not) "but can I pet him."
> 
> "No, he's working."
> "But when I'm in the mall the people training their dogs let me pet them."
> ...


Sooo........where were YOU when the "Your Service Dog Is A Public Service Mobile Petting Zoo" memo went out? EVERYBODY knows that you are *required *to allow everyone who wants to pet your dog, pet your dog! Its part of the whole experience! Kinda like the mail service, the fire department and the police......they all perform a "public service", and the memo made it clear that YOU are also now part of that classification.
Probably missed the memo while you were on Dogforums trying to pound some sense into the "I wanna take my precious little Binkums everywhere" crowd..........


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

Wow...this thread boomed in the past 48 hrs! 
I know I'm way behind now, but just to get this out of my head (I was thinking while I was taking Bella Boo fer a Poo):

Not only was the little Purse Pup essentially HARASSING Strauss and Xeph...

But...
What if there was a person in line who was SCARED to death of dogs? 
What if a little kid came up behind you and tried to pet the furry wallet and got bitten?
What if the dog got loose, became scared and BIT somebody while they were checking out the new pillows?
What if other people in the store are severely allergic to dogs?
What if the dog got loose and PEED all over the potatoes?
What if the dog got loose and became LOST in the store and/or ran out the door?
What if the dog got loose and attacked a service dog...who then defends its owner and gets hurt in the process?

...that little dog that day is obviously not secure with being a wallet. That dog should be left at home. That owner needs a reality check.

I could give a flying frig that *some* people think of it as a fashion statement...there are MUCH worse fashions out there (like snow leopard coats for example). But if you are going to bring your dog with you (albeit illegally in most US states), it should be well behaved. But who is to say even the most well behaved dog won't end up as one of the examples above? 

I would LOVE to bring Bella everywhere with me if I knew she would be perfectly well behaved and happy. Even in a place like PetCo where you are ALLOWED to bring your dog!

There....I have gotten that off my chest...thank you all.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Out of curiousity, can you get a dog certified whether therapy or not, to bring it with you places if you have a severe anxiety? And like, what are the qualifications, etc? As said before, the reason I seek out dog friendly stores is because I have this horrible fear of going out alone..and bringing Roxy seems to fix things. Just being curious. I'm not trying to certify my dog to bring it everywhere, I'd probably continue to bring her the same places we go now, just feel better about it. For the record she's never been carried around in a purse, etc. She comes with me because I stress out so bad, and won't even go if someone or she is not with me. If any of that makes sense... I think I just blabbered on..


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

I also just wanted to mention that someone had posted that even if a store sells wrapped candies, that they are a food establishment..but a friend of mine looked up the fda code for this, and found out that they are not considered a food establishment if they only sell prepackaged food items.

Link: http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2009/ucm186464.htm



> (3) *"Food establishment" does not include: *
> 
> _(a) An establishment that offers only prepackaged foods that are not potentially hazardous (time/temperature control for safety) foods;
> 
> ...


Just thought I'd pass this along!


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> Why not? Because it makes life for people with disabilities more difficult and puts public health and safety at risk. Hasn't that question been answered repeatedly?
> 
> Civil rights are the freedoms which allow you, as a citizen, to participate in the political life of the state. Whether or not you can bring a dog into a clothing store has nothing to do with civil rights.
> 
> Your dog likes to accompany you...to the local boutique? Or does your dog just like to get out of the house? I suspect the latter, in which case the dog's desire could be satisfied by a trip to the park (dog or otherwise) or a walk around the block.


Exactly how does a well behaved dog at heel make things more difficult for anyone with disabilities or endanger health or safety any more than a trained service dog? If she was lunging and barking yes, but if she is behaving as well as any service dog?

Civil rights are why I as employer must spend thousands on accessibility for the disabled which makes things more diffiuclt for me, why I cannot discriminate in my hiring practices, and has to do with a lot more than participating in political life of the state. Civil rights limit the power of the state and what the state can impose upon me, as well as what other citizens can impose upon me and what I can impose upon others.

I have the right to do basically as I please until my actions impose upon others rights as does any citizen. That's the line we are talking about.

My dog likes to accompany me anywhere I go, she has no idea if store is a boutique. She wants to be where I am, regardless.

Sure she would be satisfied going for a walk round the block, or a trip to the park, if it is accompanying me and I am there with her. But that's beside the point.

Yesterday it was the local auto parts store, which I walked across town to get to because my battery was dead and I needed to buy a charger. She heeled in the store perfectly and laid down at heel while I was deciding which charger to buy and when checking out and got a little petting from the guy checking me out. Not the slightest issue or health and safety problem for anyone.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Not the slightest issue or health and safety problem for anyone.


Until an SD team walks in the door and your dog just HAS to say hi, or DOES NOT appreciate the presence of another dog, or or or.

Our dogs go through rigorous tests to be deemed acceptable for service work. That shouldn't be undermined by those who just feel like taking poopsie everywhere, and don't need the dog there.

It undermines the legitimacy of my service dog.


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## kerplunk105 (Mar 5, 2008)

I know this is a different issue, but I figured since we were talking about SD's this would be an okay place to get opinions..

A year or so ago, I was going to register for classes at college. I took my SDIT with me as I always do. I knew someone that worked on campus had a SD, but I never saw or met the dog/owner. 

I was walking into the building, and the dog came running, (yes running), out and attacked my puppy. It was a small attack and nothing serious, but nonetheless, an attack. (btw, the puppy was fine and is now living in New Zealand as a SD)

Who was in the wrong? Should I not have had my SDIT there and therefore there wouldn't have been an issue? I said something to the owner and she pretty much blew me off. This has happen 2x so far and I've called security each time and reported the dog for being off leash.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

No SD should ever go attacking another dog, that's completely unacceptable. I am left wondering why the SD wasn't attached to its handler, as well.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Our dogs go through rigorous tests to be deemed acceptable for service work. That shouldn't be undermined by those who just feel like taking poopsie everywhere, and don't need the dog there.


Which is why I don't understand why HUMANS are allowed to bother/interfere with/disrupt service dogs.

Dogs can't (and rightfully so), but humans CAN?

What? Never will understand that. SD should be considered immune from all bothering, whether from canis familiaris or **** sapien.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

PappyMom said:


> Out of curiousity, can you get a dog certified whether therapy or not, to bring it with you places if you have a severe anxiety? And like, what are the qualifications, etc? As said before, the reason I seek out dog friendly stores is because I have this horrible fear of going out alone..and bringing Roxy seems to fix things. Just being curious. I'm not trying to certify my dog to bring it everywhere, I'd probably continue to bring her the same places we go now, just feel better about it. For the record she's never been carried around in a purse, etc. She comes with me because I stress out so bad, and won't even go if someone or she is not with me. If any of that makes sense... I think I just blabbered on..


No you can't. Severe anxiety is not a disability, and "being there" is not a task.



TxRider said:


> Exactly how does a well behaved dog at heel make things more difficult for anyone with disabilities or endanger health or safety any more than a trained service dog? If she was lunging and barking yes, but if she is behaving as well as any service dog?


Do you even read the thread?



> Civil rights are why I as employer must spend thousands on accessibility for the disabled which makes things more diffiuclt for me, why I cannot discriminate in my hiring practices, and has to do with a lot more than participating in political life of the state. Civil rights limit the power of the state and what the state can impose upon me, as well as what other citizens can impose upon me and what I can impose upon others.


No it doesn't make things difficult for you. It makes the grounds slightly more equal. Spending money is not "difficulty".



> I have the right to do basically as I please until my actions impose upon others rights as does any citizen. That's the line we are talking about.


And if you read the thread, and the last one, and the one before... it's been explained many times in great detail, why it does impose upon my rights. I'm not going to bother explaining it again because if you didn't read the 500 posts on the subject, you won't read the 501th.



> My dog likes to accompany me anywhere I go, she has no idea if store is a boutique. She wants to be where I am, regardless.
> 
> Sure she would be satisfied going for a walk round the block, or a trip to the park, if it is accompanying me and I am there with her. But that's beside the point.


It IS the point. Your dog "likes" to do it. SD dogs HAVE to do it.



> Yesterday it was the local auto parts store, which I walked across town to get to because my battery was dead and I needed to buy a charger. She heeled in the store perfectly and laid down at heel while I was deciding which charger to buy and when checking out and got a little petting from the guy checking me out. Not the slightest issue or health and safety problem for anyone.


If you read the threads, you would see why it's still a problem.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> BINGO!
> 
> Dave, Kathy, Cathy, and Candee are Strauss's big four (he will do things for Erin too, but admittedly, still needs some coercion xD), and he will work for any and all of them...if they have food that is good enough. He will aso obey children (sans food LOL), but at the end of the day, he's my dog. He's made Dave look foolish a time or two because he excels at certain things, so Dave decides "We'll use Strauss as an example!" and then Strauss won't perform because I'm not telling him to do it. Instead he spends his time trying to get back to me *ROFLMAO*
> 
> ...


I don't understand why so many seemingly intelligent adults (who should know better) think that ALL dogs LOOOOVE strangers shoving their big, pursed, kissy-face lips 2 inches from their nose...
I've met one seeing eye dog in our town, I've known the owner for years. His guide dog is a GSD who looks like a feminine version of Auz. It's hard for me not to stand and watch the dog, but even making/maintaining eye-contact with a SD that's actively working should be a no-no from what I was taught. My friend has a SD who I roughhouse with when he's "off duty" and I totally ignore when he's "on duty", and he ignores me as well. Once we went out to eat, when we got our booth he lay down. His tail got accidently stepped on and he didn't even flinch (this is the same dog who goes on his back and wants to play kick boxing when it's time to trim nails, lol). It was cool. He simply got up, turned around and tucked his tail underneath him.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> Out of curiousity, can you get a dog certified whether therapy or not, to bring it with you places if you have a severe anxiety? And like, what are the qualifications, etc? As said before, the reason I seek out dog friendly stores is because I have this horrible fear of going out alone..and bringing Roxy seems to fix things. Just being curious. I'm not trying to certify my dog to bring it everywhere, I'd probably continue to bring her the same places we go now, just feel better about it. For the record she's never been carried around in a purse, etc. She comes with me because I stress out so bad, and won't even go if someone or she is not with me. If any of that makes sense... I think I just blabbered on..


No, you arent "blabbering on"....just telling it like it is.

From an earlier post I made in this thread:

Lets get down to basics of law.

To have and use a service dog in the US, 2 criteria must be met.

1. The person must meet the legal definition of "disabled" according to the US Department Of Justice contained in the terms set forth in the Americans With Disabilities Act,

AND

2. The animal must be trained in work or tasks that directly mitigate the qualifying disability.

No legal determination of "disability"= no service dog.
No trained work or tasks that directly mitigate the disability= no service dog.

The mere presence of the dog alone is not a trained task or work and does not qualify. The task or work must be something that impacts a major life function (such as seeing, hearing, walking, caring for ones self, dressing, balance, etc) and that the disabled person cannot do of or for themselves. The idea that "Oh, if I have Fluffums here with me, I feel so much better" is not legal qualification of a disability OR of a trained task or work.

A "doctors note" is not legal qualification of a disability. It is merely the opinion of a medical professional (in other words, hearsay) and therefore cannot be a legal determining factor. Only a court of law can make the determination of a person meeting the qualification of legally disabled.

The work or task must be directly related to the disability. A deaf person (with no other extenuating disabilities) may have a wonderfully behaved and trained dog that can fetch a beer from the fridge for them, take the laundry out of the dryer, and pick up a dollar bill from the floor......but unless that dog also does trained alerts for sounds, it cannot be considered a service dog. Why? Because the deaf person is perfectly capable of fetching their own beer from the fridge, taking the laundry out of the dryer, and picking up a dropped dollar bill. The work or task MUST be directly related to the qualifying disability.

"Therapy dogs" are simply pets owned by an individual which have been registered with an organization (Delta Society, Therapy Dogs Inc., and others) to visit folks in hospitals, nursing homes, libraries, schools, etc. by invitation only; the handlers of therapy dogs do not have public venue access rights with their dogs since all the normal pet laws apply.

There are a lot of scam and fraud websites that are trying to sell "certifications" for service dogs sight-unseen......but not a single one of them will stand up in a court of law as proof of either a legal disability or of the determination of being a legitimate service dog. Just ask the whackjob whose little dog attacked my wifes Guide if her "Official Service Dog ID" kept her from being cited by the police and kicked out of WalMart after the incident. (Hint: a big fat NO would be the correct response.)

Leave your pet at home. When you take your pet into places it does not belong, you are leaving yourself wide open liability wise when the time comes that it goes off and attacks a legitimate service dog or their handler. Most states have laws regarding the interference with or distraction of working service dogs that have both criminal as well as civil penalties. It really is not worth a criminal and/or civil conviction on your permanent record just so you can take your precious little Boopsie places it doesnt belong.

Something to think about.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Which is why I don't understand why HUMANS are allowed to bother/interfere with/disrupt service dogs.
> 
> Dogs can't (and rightfully so), but humans CAN?
> 
> What? Never will understand that. SD should be considered immune from all bothering, whether from canis familiaris or **** sapien.


I had a weird incident where a man told me I could pet his SD- but I have never, ever so much as thought about asking and I always pretend the dog isn't there. They were regulars at a store I used to work at, and he would always ask where things were located and I would take him to them. I was helping him pick out a calender once and his dog was sitting by his chair and I was kneeling down picking up the calenders he couldn't reach and his dog was sitting RIGHT by me and maybe he could tell I was really concentrating on ignoring him and he said "You can go ahead and give him a pet."


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Until an SD team walks in the door and your dog just HAS to say hi, or DOES NOT appreciate the presence of another dog, or or or.


or what if she doesn't?

She should be banned just in case?

Two service dogs passing are going too 100% ignore each other all the time?


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> No, you arent "blabbering on"....just telling it like it is.
> 
> From an earlier post I made in this thread:
> 
> ...



Thank you for the information. Her name is Roxy, not Fluffums or Boopsie. Just because she is small, it doesn't mean you need to sarcastically rename her. I don't make obnoxious names for your large dogs. =]

And as said before, I only take her to dog-friendly establishments. She doesn't respond or react to other dogs and only focuses on me. If I'm given allowance to bring her into an establishment, and she doesn't disrupt anyone, then I'm clearly not going to be criminally convicted.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

PappyMom said:


> Thank you for the information. Her name is Roxy, not Fluffums or Boopsie. Just because she is small, it doesn't mean you need to sarcastically rename her. I don't make obnoxious names for your large dogs. =]
> 
> And as said before, I only take her to dog-friendly establishments. She doesn't respond or react to other dogs and only focuses on me. If I'm given allowance to bring her into an establishment, and she doesn't disrupt anyone, then I'm clearly not going to be criminally convicted.


The name and law references were in my original posting, dated 03-31-10 and copied from that posting, not directed at you personally.

Everything following "From an earlier post I made in this thread" is from that posting.

Thank you for keeping Roxy under your control at all times and for being one of the few responsible pet dog owners who take their role seriously.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

After more than 300 comments to this thread, I have learned one firm and final thing...IF YOUR DOG AIN'T A CERTIFIED SERVICE DOG, YOU CAN'T TAKE HIM/HER WITH YOU TO JUST ANY OLE STORE.

It's not rocket science people. Just because you WANT the dog with you, doesn't mean you CAN take the dog with you. No matter what size it is. Period. End. Of. Discussion.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> Two years ago, when I was working on getting Alvin certified as a therapy dog, I called my local Home Depot to ask that question. The person who answered the phone referred me to the corporate consumer hotline. I called and was told unequivocably that only service dogs are allowed in their stores, nationwide.
> 
> Now, that WAS two years ago, so policy may have changed, but that's the only for-sure info I have on Home Depot.


The front door of our Home Depot say "NO DOGS UNLESS SERVICE ANIMALS".... but the managers don't mind dogs being brought in.

Even though the managers say it's ok... guess what... it isn't.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Smithcat said:


> The name and law references were in my original posting, dated 03-31-10 and copied from that posting, not directed at you personally.
> 
> Everything following "From an earlier post I made in this thread" is from that posting.
> 
> Thank you for keeping Roxy under your control at all times and for being one of the few responsible pet dog owners who take their role seriously.


I figured that you were telling me the laws..lol, I know that you have an SD, and are far more familiar than I am with them..

And thank you for acknowledging me as a responsible pet owner. =] It's appreciated. I know that it's frusterating to see owners of small dogs just taking them anywhere, especially ill-mannered small dogs. I have been working with Roxy since she was 8 weeks old, and she is my constant companion and partner. I enjoy taking her places with me, so I seek out dog-friendly places (which as I mentioned, we have a dog-friendly town here, Mystic, which has parks, resteraunts, and several stores in the Mystic Village.) I'm aware of where she's allowed, and where she isn't and I also go way out of my way to avoid SDs and their handlers, especially when Roxy is with me. Although I know that she is unphased by other dogs and wants only to please me, all dogs can be unpredictable. =] 

To clear up any misunderstandings, I'm not advocating that people should be allowed to throw their dog in a purse and bring him along to Wal-mart, Target and Stop & Shop.. but at the same time, if there's a dog friendly establishment and I see a dog in it, it's not going to bother me at all..

I'm not a 'crazy little dog owner' nor is Roxy an accessory for me, (although I am guilty of dressing her up, as she rather enjoys it..)... She is my dog and my companion.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> After more than 300 comments to this thread, I have learned one firm and final thing...IF YOUR DOG AIN'T A CERTIFIED SERVICE DOG, YOU CAN'T TAKE HIM/HER WITH YOU TO JUST ANY OLE STORE.
> 
> It's not rocket science people. Just because you WANT the dog with you, doesn't mean you CAN take the dog with you. No matter what size it is. Period. End. Of. Discussion.


But you can take them to many ole stores. And I will take mine to any and all that allow it if I choose to, like the auto parts store yesterday.

She is a 75lb GSD, not a little dog in a costume, and I do not allow her to interact with other people's dogs unless they indicate it's ok. She has never bitten or attacked anyone else's dog, even after being bitten in the face by several, most of them aggressive little dogs about 10lbs or so.

I am putting a lot of work and training into it, and see no problem. I have never even seen a service dog in my city in the 15 years I have lived here and I see no issue with her going anywhere she is allowed and not left home "just in case" I might run into one some day.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

I get people with service dogs are frustrated but I see NO REASON for all the mean comments about small dogs.

and that includes giving them nicknames like "fluffems" "pooky" "purse dog" etc.. 

My dog has a carrier, I use it for airline travel. not to sneak him anywhere. 

Just because hes small doesn't mean people have the right to make fun of him or me. I love my small dog and I certainly don't make fun of people with big dogs.

The small dog= yappy paris hilton dog stigma STEMS from the people that sneak their small dogs everywhere, and frankly, its annoying. 

My dog is a chihuahua. and not a yappy, bitey, angry one either, nor does he shake! 
thats judging ALL chis by the behavior of a few.

Lets just say if I really wanted to do the same thing about large breeds, It would be pretty darn easy. but I don't.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Oh, lord, no one is making fun of small dogs and I say that as a small dog owner. All of the "precious snookums" and such is a jab at owners, not the dogs, who are so obsessed with their little dogs they feel the need to bring them every where. Not that the DOGS are at fault for being treated this way.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I get people with service dogs are frustrated but I see NO REASON for all the mean comments about small dogs.
> 
> and that includes giving them nicknames like "fluffems" "pooky" "purse dog" etc..
> .


I don't see anyone making fun of the small dogs at all. In fact, I call my Rottweiler "Pooky" so I don't see a name like that as a jab at all. The complaint is against the owner's of these small dogs that think they somehow have the right to do whatever they want even though their is a law against it.

Oddly enough I have found that it is those exact owner's that are sneaking their little dogs in to stores and such that would have a holy fit if I brought my Rottweiler into the same place. Double standards if you ask me.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

TxRider said:


> But you can take them to many ole stores. And I will take mine to any and all that allow it if I choose to, like the auto parts store yesterday.
> 
> She is a 75lb GSD, not a little dog in a costume, and I do not allow her to interact with other people's dogs unless they indicate it's ok. She has never bitten or attacked anyone else's dog, even after being bitten in the face by several, most of them aggressive little dogs about 10lbs or so.
> 
> I am putting a lot of work and training into it, and see no problem. I have never even seen a service dog in my city in the 15 years I have lived here and I see no issue with her going anywhere she is allowed and not left home "just in case" I might run into one some day.


I do too. I can't speak for anyone else but I think the complaint is more about people bringing dogs to places where dogs are NOT allowed. I take mine to many friendly stores including outdoor patio dining at restaurants. My dogs do not bother people, they are clean and they are allowed to be at those places. I do not however, stuff them into a purse and sneak them into places where dogs are NOT allowed.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I always pretend the dog isn't there.


I try to do the same, but my system broke down a few days ago. I was in an elevator with an SD and his owner. Problem was, the SD happened to be a split-face smooth BC and doG knows I love them. I resisted the urge to pet or talk to the dog, but in an elevator, there's nothing to look at, so I stared. Felt kinda bad about it, but since the owner was already talking to someone else about the BC, I'm not sure he noticed. The dog did, though.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

TxRider said:


> But you can take them to many ole stores. *And I will take mine to any and all that allow it if I choose to*, like the auto parts store yesterday.
> 
> She is a 75lb GSD, not a little dog in a costume, and I do not allow her to interact with other people's dogs unless they indicate it's ok. She has never bitten or attacked anyone else's dog, even after being bitten in the face by several, most of them aggressive little dogs about 10lbs or so.
> 
> I am putting a lot of work and training into it, and see no problem. I have never even seen a service dog in my city in the 15 years I have lived here and I see no issue with her going anywhere she is allowed and not left home "just in case" I might run into one some day.


That's my point exactly. The auto parts store allows your dog in there. Target does not. When in doubt don't. I understand that Lowe's and/or Home Depot does. Walmart does not. When in doubt don't. I stand by my statement "you can't take your dog in to just any ole store."

TxRider, you are training your dog to behave. Not everyone does. But you still can't take her into *most* stores. I'm not sure where you live but I have seen several service dogs (yes, I live in one of the largest cities in the country so it's to be expected); however, just because you haven't seen any doesn't mean they aren't there. 

And those who use SD's on this forum have said it can be problematic for non-SD's to be around. I think they would know better than your or I.


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

Smithcat said:


> A "doctors note" is not legal qualification of a disability. It is merely the opinion of a medical professional (in other words, hearsay) and therefore cannot be a legal determining factor. Only a court of law can make the determination of a person meeting the qualification of legally disabled.


Can you clarify this for me? Does a person actually have to go to court and appear before a judge to be considered disabled? Or, does a person just have to be confident that a judge would declare them disabled if they were taken to court? For what it's worth, I've read the relevant sections of the ADA and I'm still not sure exactly how it works. Being blind, deaf, or paralyzed are obvious disabilities, but there are plenty of mental illnesses that are disabling. Who actually makes the decisions in those cases?



ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> The front door of our Home Depot say "NO DOGS UNLESS SERVICE ANIMALS".... but the managers don't mind dogs being brought in.
> 
> Even though the managers say it's ok... guess what... it isn't.


There are no laws against dogs in hardware stores that I'm aware of. Google found me a quote from a home depot spokesperson saying that non-disruptive dogs are tolerated at the manager's discretion, so in this case, if the manager says it's OK, it is OK. They really should make sure the sign on the door is consistent with the actual rules, though.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

AccidentalChef said:


> There are no laws against dogs in hardware stores that I'm aware of. Google found me a quote from a home depot spokesperson saying that non-disruptive dogs are tolerated at the manager's discretion, so in this case, if the manager says it's OK, it is OK. They really should make sure the sign on the door is consistent with the actual rules, though.


I think Monday I'll have to try and remember to call the Home Depot corporate center. It's not really about laws against dogs being allowed in hardware stores or whatever, it's that this is the stores policy (or not... who even knows?) I can't find anything online about it. One of the more recent stories I found put out lots of conflicting information.

The call center says their policy is to not allow dogs in the store, the individual store mentioned in the article says they allow dogs, and the Home Depot spokeswoman from the article says they leave it up to the individual store to decide.

This article is dated June of 2009. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/19991519/detail.html It's one of the only recent ones I found.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Kina_A said:


> This just makes me want to scream at them “DOGS ARE NOT ACCESSORIES”!!


Of course not. Accessories will rarely growl at service dogs.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Well, that thread has been an interresting, but long, read. I often b*tch about the laws about dogs here, but at least they are clear: non-sd dogs are not allowed to any store except pet stores. Not WalMart, HD, or any other. Not on restaurant patios. Not in drugstores. Leashed in public, unless in a dog park.

I don't *like* the law. I would *like* to have my pups with me all the time. But I don't *do* it. Even if Coco has a travel bag (I used it once, and will never again. She has legs.) I won't.

And after reading the posts from people here who have SDs, I wouldn't bring them even if I could. We have our fun time together where they get to socialize and be with me: it's called walks, training and home time.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Meshkenet said:


> And after reading the posts from people here who have SDs, I wouldn't bring them even if I could. We have our fun time together where they get to socialize and be with me: it's called walks, training and home time.


Very well written Mesh...it's what I have been trying to say only you said it better.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> That's my point exactly. The auto parts store allows your dog in there. Target does not. When in doubt don't. I understand that Lowe's and/or Home Depot does. Walmart does not. When in doubt don't. I stand by my statement "you can't take your dog in to just any ole store."


I always ask, you don't just go toodling in anywhere with a 75lb dog.



> TxRider, you are training your dog to behave. Not everyone does. But you still can't take her into *most* stores. I'm not sure where you live but I have seen several service dogs (yes, I live in one of the largest cities in the country so it's to be expected); however, just because you haven't seen any doesn't mean they aren't there.
> 
> And those who use SD's on this forum has said it can be problematic for non-SD's to be around. I think they would know better than your or I.


Life is full of problems, I see no justification for me to change my lifestyle simply because some other moron might cause someone else a problem. 

Morons will always exist and cause problems regardless of what I do or don't do. Restricting what we all can do to the level needed to prevent any moron from being an inconvenience doesn't seem like the right way to go to me. I prefer to endure whatever inconveniences they present from time to time to that.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Life is full of problems, *I see no justification for me to change my lifestyle simply because some other moron might cause someone else a problem.*


This, IMHO, is selfish and irresponsible.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I always ask, you don't just go toodling in anywhere with a 75lb dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes and the disabled are already in the process of enduring what you and i would likely consider to be MAJOR inconvieniences. Ever broke a leg? Remember what it was like to hobble around on crutches and have to get people to help you? A service dog seems to effectively be a bypass to that and if, as Xeph said, the presence of non service dogs undermines the legitamacy of service dogs..it'd be really asinine to disrespect that.

Just imo.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> This, IMHO, is selfish and irresponsible.


I see no justification for that point of view either. As long as I am causing nobody a problem there is nothing selfish or irresponsible about it.

That others might cause such problems is no reason whatsoever for me to change what I do, especially when changing what I do has absolutely zero effect on others causing such problems.

Like saying because other people cut others off in traffic, I shouldn't drive. My driving or not would have no effect on them.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

TxRider said:


> Life is full of problems, I see no justification for me to change my lifestyle simply because some other moron might cause someone else a problem.
> 
> Morons will always exist and cause problems regardless of what I do or don't do. Restricting what we all can do to the level needed to prevent any moron from being an inconvenience doesn't seem like the right way to go to me. I prefer to endure whatever inconveniences they present from time to time to that.


So, it doesn't matter to you that the people that need SD's are saying that it IS a problem?

Basically, you're telling all people that need SD's that you don't care about their needs because YOU WANT your dog there as opposed to NEEDING him there?

How rude and selfish!


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Yes and the disabled are already in the process of enduring what you and i would likely consider to be MAJOR inconvieniences. Ever broke a leg? Remember what it was like to hobble around on crutches and have to get people to help you? A service dog seems to effectively be a bypass to that and if, as Xeph said, the presence of non service dogs undermines the legitamacy of service dogs..it'd be really asinine to disrespect that.
> 
> Just imo.


I take my dog anywhere she is allowed and I ask first, I would never insinuate she is a service dog, and encourage places to allow dogs if the opportunity to do so is given. As long as I'm not posing my dog as a service dog I don't see that I am undermining anything.

I see an attitude going as far as that of one where dogs shouldn't be anywhere a service dog might happen to ever want to go, I just don't see that as a valid position.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would just like to note that when I say "Pookie" "Schnookums" or "Fuzz Muffin" (or anything along those lines), it refers to EVERY dog, not just the small ones 

And TxRider, your dogs may be well behaved...but well behaved in "normal manners" for dogs and "well behaved" in public access are just not the same.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

But what is the reason you HAVE to take him in? You don't know WHEN you might find someone with a SD. You're acting like your dog is just as important or even more important than their SD's. You're saying that your wants should equal their NEEDS. After reading this thread, I am going to even refrain from taking my dog to the pet store. People with SD's need to shop there too and if Scrappy might impede them in ANY way, then he doesn't belong there.

I don't understand how ANYONE reading this post CANNOT understand the point of view of the people needing SD's. I don't understand how their own desire trumps the NEEDS of someone else.

UGH


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Jod-dog said:


> So, it doesn't matter to you that the people that need SD's are saying that it IS a problem?
> 
> Basically, you're telling all people that need SD's that you don't care about their needs because YOU WANT your dog there as opposed to NEEDING him there?
> 
> How rude and selfish!


What is rude and selfish is telling everyone else in the world to always leave their dogs at home, on the chance that a SD might be in the vicinity at the time, and an even smaller chance to no chance at all I would ever allow my dog to be problem.

When the people who do cause the problems are obviously not going to so whether I do or not.

I have every sympathy for someone with a service dog, and will not cause them problems. To treat me the same as someone who does cause problems is rude and selfish as well.

To judge all dog owners on the basis of run ins with the morons among us is not much different than what drives BSL to me.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> hat is rude and selfish is telling everyone else in the world to always leave their dogs at home, on the chance that a SD might be in the vicinity at the time, and an even smaller chance to no chance at all I would ever allow my dog to be problem.


We're not telling you to leave them at home. We're trying to be polite and hope you get the point that your dog has no business being in Target, or Walmart, or Home Depot, even if you ask. 

The number of people alone that have 'Well behaved" dogs that pee all over everything in the pet stores while the handler isn't paying attention should be enough of an incentive.

When somebody's non SD goes inside Walmart and does that very thing (I've seen it happen >.<) it makes me and my SD look bad. Now I've got all the employees basically stalking myself and my partner to make sure HE doesn't pee on anything.

It encroaches on my rights to be treated equally, and shop like everybody else does.

Your dog doesn't need to accompany you to Home Depot, or the Car Dealership, or Walmart.

Mine does.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

TxRider said:


> What is rude and selfish is telling everyone else in the world to always leave their dogs at home, on the chance that a SD might be in the vicinity at the time, and an even smaller chance to no chance at all I would ever allow my dog to be problem.
> 
> When the people who do cause the problems are obviously not going to so whether I do or not.
> 
> ...



A disabled person's right to a normal life trumps my rights as a dog owner.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Jod-dog said:


> I don't understand how ANYONE reading this post CANNOT understand the point of view of the people needing SD's. I don't understand how their own desire trumps the NEEDS of someone else.


It doesn't. It's not a mutually exclusive proposition.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

TxRider said:


> What is rude and selfish is telling everyone else in the world to always leave their dogs at home, on the chance that a SD might be in the vicinity at the time, and an even smaller chance to no chance at all I would ever allow my dog to be problem.
> 
> When the people who do cause the problems are obviously not going to so whether I do or not.
> 
> ...


Have you not read Xeph's posts?


> The number of people alone that have 'Well behaved" dogs that pee all over everything in the pet stores while the handler isn't paying attention should be enough of an incentive.
> 
> When somebody's non SD goes inside Walmart and does that very thing (I've seen it happen >.<) it makes me and my SD look bad. Now I've got all the employees basically stalking myself and my partner to make sure HE doesn't pee on anything.
> 
> ...


Let's say I bring Scrappy to the store. He's well-behaved, ignores others, etc.. (which is not always the case but this is just an example). He has an accident (doesn't even have them at home so again, just an example) and pees on the floor. Then, I leave without telling anyone (I wouldn't do that!). Then Xeph comes in with her SD and the manager follows her around--which is annoying as all get out (I leave stores where an employee follows me--even without my dog!). It was MY fault.

Or what if there are 10 "well-behaved" dogs in a store that allows pets. ONE of them has an accident. No one cleans it up. Now someone with a SD comes in...the manager or employees are going to make it that much harder for that person to shop alone. They will be watched.

Is that fair? NO. But, every "moron" (as you stated) was allowed to bring in their dog--and one of them could have been yours. Your dog was then part of the problem in the eyes of the store employees and the person with a SD.

So, I guess my point is, no matter how "well-mannered" your dog is, it CAN make life harder for someone with a SD.

Just leave the dog at home. Consider it your "good-will" mission in life. Making life easier for those who have to have extra help.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> A disabled person's right to a normal life trumps my rights as a dog owner.


AMEN! You worded it so well!


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

TxRider said:


> It doesn't. It's not a mutually exclusive proposition.


In your eyes, your privilege is the same as their need. That's rude and selfish!


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

I dont get why anybody would want to take their dog everywhere in the first place. 

lol I dont know about you but when people are around my dog its a flurry of 
"OMG!!! A PUPPEHH! I WANT ONE! CAN I PET HIM!? I USED TO HAVE A CHIHUAHUA! SO CUTE!!!" kinda hard for me to get anything done. or if hes in a bag, and then hes just bored. 

Romeo would have a lot more fun at home with his toys or in a dog friendly place 
and i think its an important part of dog ownership to teach your dog to be OK with alone time. Does Romeo like being with me? Of course he does. but hes really not gonna have a nervous breakdown when I leave lol 

I KNOW that if I wanted to I could take Romeo anywhere I want. He has a carrier, and is very well behaved, but I dont. Because I know its wrong. there are plenty of places where me and romeo can go together, and I think of those places as priveledges. just because I can get away with it..doesn't make it OK.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

I think some people are not realizing that S.D. handlers have the RIGHT to access...For pet owners to be be able to take their dogs to even pet friendly places is not a right it is a privilege.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> We're not telling you to leave them at home. We're trying to be polite and hope you get the point that your dog has no business being in Target, or Walmart, or Home Depot, even if you ask.


Whether my dog has any business there is for me and the facility in question to decide.

Walmart and Target here do not allow non service dogs, Not sure about Home Depot but Lowe's does.



> Your dog doesn't need to accompany you to Home Depot, or the Car Dealership, or Walmart.
> 
> Mine does.


And I see no reason why both cannot do so, if the facility deems it acceptable. There are few enough places that do.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Whether my dog has any business there is for me and the facility in question to decide.
> 
> Walmart and Target here do not allow non service dogs, Not sure about Home Depot but Lowe's does.
> 
> ...


Because its a persons right to shop without dogs everywhere! Can you imagine what people with allergies would go through if people were allowed to bring their dogs with them in every store? 

I love dogs, but I dont want to shop with them all over the place! Dogs shed, they pee, they poo, it happens and I HAVE EVERY RIGHT to shop without being around all that.

YOUR pet dog may not pee, poo, bark, etc.. in public, but most peoples dogs DO. 

Service dogs are trained, and they are few.. I have maybe seen..6 service dogs in my lifetime. but LOTS of people have dogs, and even if only half of those people decided to take them everywhere..it would still end up a disaster. 

I LOVE DOGS, but I dont want to shop with them everywhere. and people with allergies sure don't either. 

I wanna go see a bunch of dogs, I go to the dog park, or petsmart... I dont go to the mall because I want to see dogs, dog hair, pee, etc.. all over the place!


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

TxRider said:


> Whether my dog has any business there is for me and the facility in question to decide.


Yes, but where does COMMON COURTESY come in?

People with SD's are telling you in plain English that it makes things harder for them.

People with SD's who have to deal with pets in stores are telling you that it's a problem.

You aren't listening. You are seeing only what you deem is appropriate and forgetting others. That's selfish.

It has been stated in PLAIN ENGLISH that PETS IN STORES ARE A PROBLEM FOR PEOPLE WITH SERVICE DOGS.

What don't you understand? You have NO common courtesy. 

PEOPLE WHO USE SERVICE DOGS ARE TELLING YOU THAT PETS ARE PROBLEMS IN STORES.

Did you read that? THEY ARE PROBLEMS! I don't care how well-mannered your precious poochie is, it makes problems for others with needs.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

I agree with TxRider. If a facility allows pets (Lowes and Home Depot here do, there are also some great cafes and restaurants that even allow dogs inside (just not in the food prep area, of course). If Elka can go with me, then I will bring her with me.

She does not, nor will she ever, interfere with a service dog or their handler.

Disabled people with service dogs get special access and that is exactly as it should be. However, asking for folks to not bring their dogs to places that well-behaved companion dogs are welcomed by the facility, is something entirely different.

Of course if a companion dog is misbehaving and causing problems, they should be removed from the facility, and it is up to that facility's staff to manage if they allow companion dogs. 

That's my feeling on it.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

TxRider, you truly amaze me...truly, truly amaze me, with your attitude. I really feel sorry for you.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> I think some people are not realizing that S.D. handlers have the RIGHT to access...For pet owners to be be able to take their dogs to even pet friendly places is not a right it is a privilege.


Exactly, and a privilege I take seriously and take advantage of and am responsible to make sure I do nothing to threaten that privilege.

It would seem it is being demanded not to utilize that privilege simply because some other people misuse it.

If a person takes a well behaved dog to a facility that allows dogs, under no pretense of being a SD, and is responsible, there should be no issue.

Such facilities are rare enough that they are quite easily avoided if desired.

Taking pets to places they are not allowed by policy, taking dogs into places under false pretense that they are a SD and being irresponsible taking dogs that are not well behaved and under control are another matter entirely.

The distinction seems to have disappeared in this thread.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

Dog friendly places are fine IMO. 

pet stores (petsmart, petco etc..), Dog parks, Restaurants with Patios, etc.. those are the kinds of places that allow pet dogs. and are prepared for the kind of problems that come with allowing pet dogs (accidents, etc..). These are also places where people with allergies or who don't like dogs can avoid. 

I just dont agree with taking your dog places where dogs aren't allowed just BECAUSE you want to

I love taking my dog to dog-friendly places and have every right 2. Just my 2 cents.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> TxRider, you truly amaze me...truly, truly amaze me, with your attitude. I really feel sorry for you.


As do I. I pray TxRider never needs a SD...and has to deal with others pets.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Namrah said:


> Disabled people with service dogs get special access and that is exactly as it should be. However, asking for folks to not bring their dogs to places that well-behaved companion dogs are welcomed by the facility, is something entirely different.


This is the sort of thinking that is the problem. You call it special access...making them less of a person than you are!!! Try being someone who needs "special access". I guess handicapped parking is "special access"...try not having the energy to walk from the store after shopping...for things that are necessary, and have people look at you because you "don't look handicapped". I need to wear a sign that states I have MS and need to park closer? That's like telling a blind person to wear a sign that they need an SD. Or Xeph to have it plastered that she has seizures and needs help from her dog to keep her balance.

This statement may get me in trouble but you, Tx Rider and the others who insist on taking companion dogs everywhere are selfish, self-centered and irresponsible. You want what you want, to hell with what others need. 

I feel sorry for all of you.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> This statement may get me in trouble but you, Tx Rider and the others who insist on taking companion dogs everywhere are selfish, self-centered and irresponsible. You want what you want, to hell with what others need.
> 
> I feel sorry for all of you.


Well, then I'll get in trouble with you because I second that thought.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

Umm.. I dont think its about taking our companion dogs EVERYWHERE. I just take him where hes ALLOWED. and I see no problem with that WHATSOEVER 

Petsmart, Dog parks, Outdoor patio restaurants, Dog beach...these are all dog friendly places that I LOVE going to. and I dont see how its hurting anybody


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

I think that TXRider is only talking of taking their dog where pets are allowed.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

LilMissSunshine said:


> Because its a persons right to shop without dogs everywhere! Can you imagine what people with allergies would go through if people were allowed to bring their dogs with them in every store?


Which is why places that allow dogs are rather rare.

And yes I can imagine, as a person who is allergic to sunlight itself, which affects me as poison ivy does most people, I can imagine it quite well. Still, I do get stuck in the sunlight at times.

Just being seated at say an outdoor table at a restaurant for me, I would end up battling what most would receive from rubbing poison ivy on their face head and neck for the next month.

Is it my "right" that I never have to stand in a line outside? Is it my right to have shade, that every place I might want to go provide it for me? No.

I cannot just "go to any park", I have other considerations as to where I can go and what I can do and indoor facilities are always nice for me.

In fact my training class this morning was too sunny and I'm sitting here trying not to literally scratch my face bloody as I break out over my face, ears, head and neck and it's likely affecting my attitude posting.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

> This is the sort of thinking that is the problem. You call it special access...making them less of a person than you are!!! Try being someone who needs "special access". I guess handicapped parking is "special access"...


No, the _dogs_ get special access because they are with the handler that needs them _for medical reasons_.

And if you think that there are disabled folks that don't abuse the hell out of this, you're dead wrong. 

If you think a particular facility should not allow companion dogs, take it up with them. For now, if those facilities invite my companion dogs in, then I'll take advantage of that privelge and go with my dogs.

Is there some reason that you need to throw personal attacks out in order to have an intellectual conversation about this? I find that highly disturbing. I never insulted you but you are incredibly defensive and insulting toward those disagreeing with your opinion.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Wait!....Is their some lack of communication going on here or are some arguing that pets shouldn't even go into places where they are allowed?


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

> Wait!....Is their some lack of communication going on here or are some arguing that pets shouldn't even go into places where they are allowed?


I personally only want to take my dogs where they're allowed and am feel that I am being attacked for that.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Namrah, the reason for the personal attack (which they were) is that people who don't need the "special access" etc. don't have a clue what those of us who have such "needs" go through. Thus the defensive remarks. You came into this thread waaayyy down the line and unless you spent the time to read each and every reply, it has been said over and over by those who have SD's that taking dogs into stores that are not designed for dogs, causes problems.

And TxRider, I don't go to the dog park in the summer because it is too hot for me. I stay home. I can't stand for long periods of time so I don't go to places that I have to stand a lot. When I'm too tired to do things, I stay home and rest. 

I'm sorry that you can't be in the sun...it has to be a bitch. Maybe if you apply the discomfort (for lack of a better word, I know it's not adequate) you go through to what problems can be caused by companion dogs in "regular stores" you might have a different attitude.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

> Namrah, the reason for the personal attack (which they were) is that people who don't need the "special access" etc. don't have a clue what those of us who have such "needs" go through. Thus the defensive remarks. You came into this thread waaayyy down the line and unless you spent the time to read each and every reply, it has been said over and over by those who have SD's that taking dogs into stores that are not designed for dogs, causes problems.



I've been reading the whole time and did take a minor part earlier on in the thread. Lack of participation does not mean I haven't read every post.

I've been on both sides of this argument (in situations not involving dogs). I'd hate to cause even more ruckus, so I won't go into those situations, but I understand both sides _from personal experience_.

However, asking me not to take my dogs to someplace that they are welcomed is not right. If people object to the pet allowance policy at a given facility, take it up with that facility, not with those that are happy to be able to bring their dogs along to a _welcoming environment_.

I follow the rules; I do not take my dogs _everywhere_, and I don't appreciate being attacked because of their company when they are allowed to be there.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

My opinion is that dogs can go where they are permitted by the corporate office (or for local places their owner) such as pet stores, outdoor places like the beach UNLESS it might impede on the rights of those with SD's. I understand that some stores like hardware stores allow pets, if you ask, even if it's posted as Service Dogs Only. BUT there is NO REASON to take them in there. PURSE PETS in any store like Wal-Mart, Target, the local Grocery store should not be allowed--especially since it's posted otherwise.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> This is the sort of thinking that is the problem. You call it special access...making them less of a person than you are!!! Try being someone who needs "special access". I guess handicapped parking is "special access"...try not having the energy to walk from the store after shopping...for things that are necessary, and have people look at you because you "don't look handicapped". I need to wear a sign that states I have MS and need to park closer? That's like telling a blind person to wear a sign that they need an SD. Or Xeph to have it plastered that she has seizures and needs help from her dog to keep her balance.


Special access means less of a person? How do you get that? It only means different, that only certain people may use it.

If you automatically see any noted difference as meaning less of a person I feel sorry for you. I certainly do not see it that way.

I'll be wearing a sign for the next few weeks, one that says "what the heck is up with that guy's face?" attracting stares from many.



> This statement may get me in trouble but you, Tx Rider and the others who insist on taking companion dogs everywhere are selfish, self-centered and irresponsible. You want what you want, to hell with what others need.
> 
> I feel sorry for all of you.


I never stated i insist on taking my dog "everywhere".

I said where dogs are allowed. To places they are allowed by the facility to enter.

And I also stated clearly that I ask explicit permission if it is not clear. I also stated I take the responsibility that goes with the privilege seriously.

Do not put words into my mouth.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Some people just don't understand. I'm done with this thread.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I understand that some stores like hardware stores allow pets, if you ask, even if it's posted as Service Dogs Only.


This is the problem right here. You are never going to convince people to leave their dogs home if they want to bring them and management is allowing them. For the most part, people are selfish. Even if they acknowledge that there are people who need dogs in stores, they almost don't care and bring their pets anyway.. it's sad, but it's true. It's easy for me to say "make it punishable by law for store owners/managers to allow pet dogs in to stores," but then that opens up the whole other can of worms that we discussed in the last thread.. that probing deeper in to what dogs are service dogs and what dogs are pets places a burden on those who are legitimate SD handlers trying to go out in to the world. 

So, this is just going to keep going in circles.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Jod-dog said:


> My opinion is that dogs can go where they are permitted by the corporate office (or for local places their owner) such as pet stores, outdoor places like the beach UNLESS it might impede on the rights of those with SD's. I understand that some stores like hardware stores allow pets, if you ask, even if it's posted as Service Dogs Only. BUT there is NO REASON to take them in there. PURSE PETS in any store like Wal-Mart, Target, the local Grocery store should not be allowed--especially since it's posted otherwise.


If it is posted otherwise I don't even ask.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Namrah said:


> However, asking me not to take my dogs to someplace that they are welcomed is not right. If people object to the pet allowance policy at a given facility, take it up with that facility, not with those that are happy to be able to bring their dogs along to a _welcoming environment_.
> 
> I follow the rules; I do not take my dogs _everywhere_, and I don't appreciate being attacked because of their company when they are allowed to be there.


I think that is exactly what most of us who occasionally take our dogs into stores have been trying to say. We ONLY take our dogs into stores that actually welcome pets. Many of us have said that we have well-behaved dogs who would never pee on the floor or bark/snap at other customers, and that we would steer clear of any service dogs and handlers we saw. Yet some people here seem to be lumping us in with all of those owners who _think_ they have well-behaved dogs and do not... in some cases, insinuating our dogs have SA or that we're incapable of leaving our little "snookums" or "pookie" home, that we take our dogs wherever we want regardless of whether or not they're supposed to be there, and that we are incapable of accurately judging whether or not our animals would pee on the floor (and that we'd just leave it if they did)!

Those people certainly exist, and that sucks, but if they are a major problem in a specific store, that store (or the company headquarters, in the case of a chain) can _easily_ enact a No Pets policy and solve that problem -- and we would respect that policy, because we are not selfish jerks who think we're above the rules. So to suggest we should stop taking our dogs to stores where they are _welcome_ just because these bad owners exist... I agree with TxRider; that's not going to solve anything. 

(And yes, I have read every post on this thread, and I see where people are coming from. I understand the arguments. I just think that it's up to each store to decide whether or not to allow pets... because even if all of us who truly have good, non-trouble-making dogs stopped taking ours into any stores, all of those jerks with badly-behaved dogs would still take theirs in. The only way to ensure a safe, pet-free environment for a handler and their dog is to ban pets entirely... which only a store can do.)


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> This is the problem right here. You are never going to convince people to leave their dogs home if they want to bring them and management is allowing them. For the most part, people are selfish. Even if they acknowledge that there are people who need dogs in stores, they almost don't care and bring their pets anyway.. it's sad, but it's true. It's easy for me to say "make it punishable by law for store owners/managers to allow pet dogs in to stores," but then that opens up the whole other can of worms that we discussed in the last thread.. that probing deeper in to what dogs are service dogs and what dogs are pets places a burden on those who are legitimate SD handlers trying to go out in to the world.
> 
> So, this is just going to keep going in circles.


I know. It's horrible. Managers are making the call on this even if corporate offices have stated otherwise. It just adds to the trouble!



TxRider said:


> If it is posted otherwise I don't even ask.


Others on here have stated that they have asked anyway. That's who I am referring to. I know you said you don't!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Bingo. The individual managers are "overriding" their corporate office in regards to the policy on allowing non service animals to enter the store.

As an aside, when I started this thread it was a mini rant, but it was also supposed to impart some humor (you know how I do). I find it sad that many people missed that.

Have none of you ever read the "To the person who put the dead bird in my mailbox" on the best of Craigslist?

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/649331801.html


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

TxRider said:


> Walmart and Target here do not allow non service dogs, Not sure about Home Depot but Lowe's does.


Some Lowe's may, but I can tell you as a former employee (separated on good terms) that the employees do NOT appreciate non service dogs AT ALL. They are a hassle no matter how well behaved. I love seeing a service dog at work (or SDIT), I know they will be well behaved, but I'm SOOOOO glad my current employer (SeaWorld) doesn't allow non SD's or SDIT in. I've had to clean far too many messes after so call 'well behaved' dogs while at Lowe's (who in fact have the same policy as Home Depot). It got to the point that our store banned non service dogs (this was the store in Woodbridge/Dale City VA) when we opened the new store. Perhaps this perspective will help you to understand how your actions affect those with SD's, even though their perspective should have done the trick.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Have none of you ever read the "To the person who put the dead bird in my mailbox" on the best of Craigslist?
> 
> http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/649331801.html




OMG! Just read that! It's funny and yet not all at the same time. Poor bird!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It is still one of my favorites.

"Mama told you stop bothering the Zoo."
"If this is Gina, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, how many times I gotta say I'm sorry."


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Xeph said:


> As an aside, when I started this thread it was a mini rant, but it was also supposed to impart some humor (you know how I do). I find it sad that many people missed that.
> 
> Have none of you ever read the "To the person who put the dead bird in my mailbox" on the best of Craigslist?
> 
> http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/nyc/649331801.html


Haha! I hadn't, but that is great. 

I don't think anyone actually had a problem with your post... it seems like almost all of us agree that the woman was in the wrong and that dogs should not be in a Target! The thread didn't get heated and branch off into about five different arguments (where, as usual, many people ended up arguing almost exactly the same side without realizing it) until later on. 



cshellenberger said:


> Some Lowe's may, but I can tell you as a former employee (separated on good terms) that the employees do NOT appreciate non service dogs AT ALL. They are a hassle no matter how well behaved. I love seeing a service dog at work (or SDIT), I know they will be well behaved, but I'm SOOOOO glad my current employer (SeaWorld) doesn't allow non SD's or SDIT in. I've had to clean far too many messes after so call 'well behaved' dogs while at Lowe's (who in fact have the same policy as Home Depot). It got to the point that our store banned non service dogs (this was the store in Woodbridge/Dale City VA) when we opened the new store. Perhaps this perspective will help you to understand how your actions affect those with SD's, even though their perspective should have done the trick.


I think all of us can easily understand how things like that affect those with SD's.

Just, for the sake of argument, though, assume that I only take my dog into stores where she's actually allowed. Assume that she will never bark or snap at anyone (human or animal) and that the chance of her peeing on the floor is so tiny as to be almost nonexistent (and that if she ever did any of these things, I would no longer take her into stores). Assume that if we ever even encountered a service dog, we would stay on the other side of the store or even leave until they'd finished shopping. I suppose I'll also have to ask you to trust that I can accurately assess all of this (i.e., that I'm not one of those people who thinks I have a well-behaved dog when I don't). Would my dog and I be negatively affecting service dogs and their handlers in any way? You say that all non-service dogs are "a hassle no matter how well behaved," and I'm curious as to why this is.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

Im confused by the direction of this thread. 

If what people are trying to say is that I shouldn't take my dog where dogs are allowed.. like petsmart. 
then im sorry you are SOL lol because I have every right to. 

I don't believe in sneaking my dog into places (like walmart..) but I certainly am NOT going to stop taking him to petco, petsmart, the dog park, or outdoor patio restaurants where pet dogs are ALLOWED. and I dont see one good reason why I SHOULD NOT take him to pet-friendly places. 

Because he might be a distraction to a service dog? umm..sorry. then people with service dogs can just stay out of petsmart or the like if they don't want to deal with it because well behaved on leash pet-dogs are allowed there, its one of the FEW places they CAN go. 
Im not going to confine my dog to the house just because we MIGHT run into a service dog at petsmart or something lol im sorry but I think thats ridiculous.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If what people are trying to say is that I shouldn't take my dog where dogs are allowed.. like petsmart.


That is not what I am saying. I cannot speak for anybody else.



> then im sorry you are SOL lol because I have every right to.


For the record, it is actually still a privelege.

I said at the very beginning that I TOTALLY expect dogs to be at the pet stores and what not. The Petsmart/Petco is one of the few places that Strauss can be "just a dog" and so he is "off duty" there. Things are very relaxed and he is allowed to encounter other dogs and people as any other dog would.

I was otherwise speaking of department stores and the like.

Hope that makes things clear on my end.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Some Lowe's may, but I can tell you as a former employee (separated on good terms) that the employees do NOT appreciate non service dogs AT ALL. They are a hassle no matter how well behaved. I love seeing a service dog at work (or SDIT), I know they will be well behaved, but I'm SOOOOO glad my current employer (SeaWorld) doesn't allow non SD's or SDIT in. I've had to clean far too many messes after so call 'well behaved' dogs while at Lowe's (who in fact have the same policy as Home Depot). It got to the point that our store banned non service dogs (this was the store in Woodbridge/Dale City VA) when we opened the new store. Perhaps this perspective will help you to understand how your actions affect those with SD's, even though their perspective should have done the trick.


I would never leave a mess for someone else to clean up, so no I don't see how the perspective of cleaning up after dogs is relevant.

I thought that the statement of taking the responsibility that comes with the privilege seriously would have conveyed that.

If the store posts service dogs only that is their choice, as it is my choice to shop elsewhere.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

Xeph said:


> That is not what I am saying. I cannot speak for anybody else.
> 
> 
> For the record, it is actually still a privelege.
> ...


Oh I wasn't referring to you, its just recent posts that have me confused lol


I dont believe in sneaking my dog anywhere where dogs aren't allowed.. but if a place is dog friendly, heck yea im going to enjoy the *privelege* of taking him. 

I just feel like people who take their dogs to dog-friendly places, and people who sneak their dogs everywhere kind of got lumped together somehow in this thread...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

If a store is truly pet friendly, like a PetCo, PetSmart and a few of the small shops and feed stores, it's one thing. I myself take my dogs (well at least Frank and Rocky) to such places. However I would NEVER take them to Lowes, HD or other such places. 

I know too much that can happen and I know what the 'corporate' policies are. I've seen dogs get nails in their paws, and some nasty splinters in Lowes and the owners expect the store to pay for it. I also know of one event when someone was bitten by a non SD and sued the store for it (not ours, but influenced out policy) because they allowed non SD's in the store, yes, the store CAN be held liable for events such as this. I mean honestly, if a non SD attacked a SD in such a store, the store could be held liable as well as the owner of the non SD because they allowed the dog in against corporate policy. Honestly, stores with merchandise stored overhead (topstock) and forklifts being operated in can be dangerous enough for humans, WHY risk your dogs in such a place especailly if they're only there for company?


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Utterly amazing, just because the dog is small is no excuse. Then you hear the story of the service dog in Denver, the city does not want the dog in the city because it is at least part pit bull. the owner faces the choice of moving or getting rid of the service dog... and yet small dogs get away with going into stores, restaurants etc. I am sure that if it had been a St. Bernard the store would have had no trouble asking the owner to take it outside.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

Personally, I would never find myself in Home Depot or Lowes lol and ya, its one of those places I would never bring my dog. as cshellen mentioned, lots of dangerous stuff going on, things on the floor, fork lifts, etc... 

But Nordstrom, Neiman marcus... great places to shop,and pet friendly. Romeo likes it, everybody is nice. and is there really a reason for him to be there? Not really. but its fun and its allowed, so I take him. He enjoys it and so do I, thats enough reason for me. 

and Yes, ive worked at Nordstrom. and we all LOVED the pet policy for the most part. any well behaved, on leash dog is allowed  were there potty accidents? ya. but because of the dog friendly policy, we were prepared to deal with it. and I LOVED having doggies visit me at work


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

TxRider said:


> I would never leave a mess for someone else to clean up, so no I don't see how the perspective of cleaning up after dogs is relevant.


 
Really? Never? Even if your dog had an emergency, do you really think that the employees wouldn't have to clean and disinfect after your dogs accident? Let me assure you they would, even if you made an effort to clean it up.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Xeph said:


> That is not what I am saying. I cannot speak for anybody else.
> 
> 
> For the record, it is actually still a privelege.
> ...


Totally agree and have never said anything else.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Here's how it goes:

I love Trent, no doubt about it, and I enjoy his company immensely. I like having him around, and I like taking him places. He's incredibly well behaved, has never had an accident, and people love him. I've never put him close to anyone who may be afraid of dogs or large dogs, and am very careful about his behavior and how his presence affects others. I always, always ask for permission before taking him into a store, and never fail to remove him if he is misbehaving in any way. It's an excellent way to socialize him and to have him around me more...

BUT

if it came down to it, I would HAPPILY exchange the PRIVILEGE to take my dog shopping with me for a service dog and owner/handler's RIGHT to SAFETY and FUNCTION as a working dog and disabled team. And honestly, I don't see what the fuss is about. What's so absolutely crucial about taking your dog little places like a supply store with you? Why is there a need to hang on to that, even if it means endangering someone else? Let's face it, we don't need to have our dogs there. But those with service dogs DO need their dogs a heck of a lot more than we do, and we certainly aren't doing any good by bringing our dogs there.

Xeph has said specifically that she doesn't mind a well behaved dog legally inside a store at the store manager's permission. I'm happy to hear that, but I do need to point out to others that while a well behaved dog may not be the problem, if the dog's prescence is contributing to a problem (for example, making others think it is okay to bring their own dogs to stores without regard for others), then it makes sense to prefer that dogs, in general, do not enter businesses. And even as someone who would like to go as many places as possible with her dog (and someone who's a teenager, no less!), everything Xeph, Rbark, and Smithcat have advocated for makes complete sense and why anyone would say otherwise is beyond me.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

LilMissSunshine said:


> But Nordstrom, Neiman marcus... great places to shop,and pet friendly. ...
> 
> and Yes, ive worked at Nordstrom. and we all LOVED the pet policy for the most part. any well behaved, on leash dog is allowed  were there potty accidents? ya. but because of the dog friendly policy, we were prepared to deal with it. and I LOVED having doggies visit me at work


Ack! Really? I hate the idea of having dog hair on my newly-purchased-and-perfectly-clean-for-such-a-short-time clothes almost as much as I hate the idea of having a dog hair in my soup at a restaraunt. How did you deal with that? A nice, well-behaved, white, shedding dog brushing up against black slacks? Horrors!!


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

waterbaby said:


> Ack! Really? I hate the idea of having dog hair on my newly-purchased-and-perfectly-clean-for-such-a-short-time clothes almost as much as I hate the idea of having a dog hair in my soup at a restaraunt. How did you deal with that? A nice, well-behaved, white, shedding dog brushing up against black slacks? Horrors!!


Lol no worries. they werent allowed near the clothes

there are "hallways" kind of things made of tile, while all the clothing areas are on carpet. So you can walk around with your pooch anywhere with tile but nowhere with carpet. 
Its spaced out enough so that the clothes, shoes, etc.. do NOT come in contact with your pooch or come close enough to get dog hair on them

People that bring their dogs are usually never there for clothing. Usually just for the pet section, or maybe makeup, jewlery, fragrance.. (all tiled areas) 

If people w/their dogs do want to try on/check out clothes or shoes (which is rare), somebody is always available to hold their doggy while they choose and try on stuff. 

Again, the MAJORITY of dogs that come in are tiny. Chis, Matlese, Yorkie.. etc.. We did have a couple of larger dogs but really..not usually. since all the pet merchandise is centered around small breeds. 

The only dogs allowed on carpeted areas were service dogs of course. and we've never had a problem. Usually the handler keeps the dog on the side of them AWAY from the clothes. and like Xephs dog, all were VERY well groomed.. never had loose hairs flying all over the place lol


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

It seems like some posts in this thread are saying that pets shouldn't be taken anywhere except pet stores, even if they're allowed, since it's not "necessary". Aside from the obvious cases involving food, I just can't see that being reasonable. Any business owner should be able to decide whether or not they allow pet dogs in the store as long as they don't violate health codes, and store managers of chains should be able to make the same decision if allowed by corporate policy. Of course, service animals should always have priority, and any person or animal that interferes with the service animal should be removed from the store. Beyond that, "necessary" doesn't have anything to do with it.

It's the business owner's right to set the policies for his business as long as they don't violate any laws. A service dog's handler clearly has the right to enter that business, since the owner would be violating the ADA by preventing him. The owner isn't preventing a disabled person from entering with his service dog by allowing other dogs in the store. It may be true that allowing other dogs in the store is an inconvenience to the disabled, but the ADA only prevents the disabled from being excluded from participation or denied the benefits of any public entity. It doesn't and couldn't possibly prevent every inconvenience.

I'm not saying in any way that the disabled don't deserve and have the right to whatever reasonable accommodations they need. People with service dogs must have every reasonable accommodation made for them, without exception. Still, I can't see it as reasonable to prevent business owners from allowing pets just because a service dog might come in. It makes as little sense as banning pet dogs from sidewalks or parks.

The only reasonable answer I can think of would be changing the requirements for businesses allowing pets. It doesn't make sense to take freedoms away from business owners, but it does make sense for them to be clear about their decisions. I'd like to see the law changed so that any public building is off limits to any dog that is not a SD unless a "pets welcome" sign is posted at the entry. Entering a building without a "pets welcome" sign with a dog that is not a SD is fraud. That should get rid of any ambiguity in who is allowed to take dogs to certain places, and would inform any SD handler of the possibility of encountering other dogs in the store. The disabled would have the same choice as everyone else about whether to deal with dogs in the store or shop elsewhere.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

waterbaby said:


> Ack! Really? I hate the idea of having dog hair on my newly-purchased-and-perfectly-clean-for-such-a-short-time clothes almost as much as I hate the idea of having a dog hair in my soup at a restaraunt. How did you deal with that? A nice, well-behaved, white, shedding dog brushing up against black slacks? Horrors!!


I was just reading an article about some really up-scale restaurants who are allowing pets come to dinner. It is becoming their niche, that they allow dogs to come and eat with their owners. It is technically against the law but the customers and the dogs are not complaining and they stay out on the patio. Some of the restaurants are developing a real following..both canine and human


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

ozzy29 said:


> I was just reading an article about some really up-scale restaurants who are allowing pets come to dinner. It is becoming their niche, that they allow dogs to come and eat with their owners. It is technically against the law but the customers and the dogs are not complaining and they stay out on the patio. Some of the restaurants are developing a real following..both canine and human


It is becoming popular, people want to hang out with their pets. My hair salon/nail place allows dogs  romeo even gets his nails done! lol they have various other doggy/owner spa treatments...

but as for restaurants, ya, I think doggies should be kept on the patio or outdoor areas, just out of courtesy to other customers. I mean, some people are allergic, potty accidents, dog hair in food.. that kinda thing lol


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> I like your post. Its so hard to tell people's tones over the internet but I love your tone.  I don't know who you are but I respect you and your opinions, unlike some people *cough*RBark*cough! LOL
> 
> But, I do not bring Gigi to places that carry food. I guess I should've said that to begin with. That is illegal. Only the grocery store for a second to get something, but that's ONLY because they said it was okay to do so if she was confined. But all restaurants allow dogs if they have an outside eating area. So that works.


No they just get away with it... It is illegal and if caught they would be fined.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

ozzy29 said:


> No they just get away with it... It is illegal and if caught they would be fined.


I really doubt restaurants would be fined for having dogs on OUTSIDE patio areas.. I mean honestly, I see it everywhere. I go to these kinds of restaurants with romeo DAILY during the summer and have NEVER heard of any place having a problem. 
In fact, once me & romeo even sat at a table across from a police officer. 

most even have huge "DOGGIES WELCOME OUTSIDE" signs, as well as doggy items on the menu... this really isnt an "shh keep it quiet, its illegal" thing. 

and I think its awesome that some restaurants cater to doggy customers, its great to be able to take romeo out with me for lunch.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Darla Giselle said:


> Really what? How is the "selfish" part when I'm speaking for the millions of purse dog owners out there when I barely ever do it? I'm really wanting to see some "spoiled" examples when you haven't met me, don't know what I look like, don't know where I live, ect. And "beyond insulting", the only person I truly insulted was jog-dog, so I AM NOT really the one thats doing the insulting in this thread. REALLY.
> 
> I didn't change my story, I just wasn't as descriptive as I should've been. But that's why I said the next post after that one.
> 
> Actually this is what we saw when we went to Cali before Gigi. Little dogs were everywhereeee. THat's why I said that about Cali.


Well where I live a dog is a dog regardless of size. SD exempt of course. the only store that allow pets are pet stores and only if they have a door that leads directly outside. If they are in a mall... no dogs...And that includes small dogs


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes patio areas are a part of the restaurant...and they have very strict rules, including hours of service etc. My personal opinion is if a restaurant owner wishes to allow pets that is his business and dogs on the patio do not bother me but they do bother others and, until they change the laws you should abide by them and stop making other dog owners look bad.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

ozzy29 said:


> My personal opinion is if a restaurant owner wishes to allow pets that is his business and dogs on the patio do not bother me but they do bother others and, until they change the laws you should abide by them and stop making other dog owners look bad.


So... even if dogs are allowed (or actively welcomed) onto certain restaurant patios, we should avoid taking ours just because they _might_ bother some people? I disagree with that. I can understand the argument for not taking your dog into stores (even ones that welcome dogs) because they can cause problems for SD handlers, allergic customers or employees who might have to clean up after them. A lot of stores are niche ones, and these people may have no alternate choice of where to shop. A restaurant, though... they are _everywhere_. If someone is annoyed by dogs, they have many other non-dog-friendly choices of somewhere to eat, or can move inside the restaurant. And honestly, unless a dog is being a real pest (barking, peeing, etc.), it should not bother anyone or trigger allergies outside on a patio. If it does, most patios are large enough that one party can move.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

As I said I do not object to dogs on patios, they do not bother me. And more places are welcoming them and I think they should change the laws and allow dogs to be on patios if that is what the owner decides to do. I think that out door patios and dogs are a great idea. 
But until they change the rules and laws I feel that you should respect them. If some one does decide to complain these places can face large fines, or be shut down.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

In some areas, it's perfectly legal for dogs to be on patios. Here's an article:



> In many areas of the country, inspectors have become more tolerant of pets. In Los Angeles, for instance, health inspectors allow dogs in outdoor café seating areas, provided there are no barricades separating diners from pedestrians, and that you don’t have to walk through the normal restaurant to get to the area, the way you would with a back patio.
> 
> “I think an unreasonable approach would be to say that no dogs are allowed at an outdoor table when a pedestrian walking by on the sidewalk can essentially brush up against you with a dog,” says Powell.
> 
> Florida was the first to enact a law explicitly allowing dogs in outdoor areas of restaurants. Sheri McInvale, the former state representative who introduced the legislation, says the biggest opposition to the bill had to do with concerns over dog bites and fights, not health issues. The final bill signed into law contained a provision that restaurants had to carry a minimum level of liability insurance in order to participate in the program.


Here is another article, which says this:



> FAST FACTS
> 
> - There are no Federal laws prohibiting dogs at restaurants. The FDA Food Code is a recommendation, not a law. Federal Law requires restaurants to allow service dogs for the handicapped both inside and outside.
> 
> ...


The article itself clarifies all of the fast facts. Interesting reading.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

crantastic, I noted you are in PEI. I think it is great that more places are becoming dog friendly

Ontario Regulation 562 under the Health Protection and Promotion Act states that animals are not allowed in places where food is manufactured, prepared, processed, handled, served, displayed, stored, sold or offered for sale

Canadian restaurant laws are determined by the province.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Most people here are talking about laws in the states, though, which is why I looked for info regarding outdoor patios there. I have done some personal research about Toronto and Halifax, NS as well, because those are the cities I more often visit with my dog.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I really doubt restaurants would be fined for having dogs on OUTSIDE patio areas.. I mean honestly, I see it everywhere. I go to these kinds of restaurants with romeo DAILY during the summer and have NEVER heard of any place having a problem.
> In fact, once me & romeo even sat at a table across from a police officer.
> 
> most even have huge "DOGGIES WELCOME OUTSIDE" signs, as well as doggy items on the menu... this really isnt an "shh keep it quiet, its illegal" thing.
> ...


IMO, CT is so much fun if you own a dog. =] There are tons of dog-friendly places...you've gotta take a day out in Mystic, you can go almost everywhere with Romeo!

My hair dresser is dog-friendly too. It's inside of a pet friendly hotel..and when I lived with my bf, I drove the hour to come to her and spend the weekend at my parents, and I was always allowed to bring my dogs in! Roxy used to sleep on my lap while I got a relaxer done..



waterbaby said:


> Ack! Really? I hate the idea of having dog hair on my newly-purchased-and-perfectly-clean-for-such-a-short-time clothes almost as much as I hate the idea of having a dog hair in my soup at a restaraunt. How did you deal with that? A nice, well-behaved, white, shedding dog brushing up against black slacks? Horrors!!


I used to work at Target.. I was the lingerie specialist/fitting room attendant/sales floor team member. I can tell you horror stories about your 'perfectly clean' clothing that you're purchasing. It's not so clean. People are trying them on, and these people are either kind of clean, or super disgusting. If the employees good, like I was, they discard clothing that comes out looking dingy. These people still manage to get dog fur on the clothes, even if they dog's not with them, deoderant stains, sweat, lint, all kinds of disgusting things on them. That's why you're supposed to wash before wearing. I also think it's disgusting for women to try on nursing bras, but it's allowed.. So I think dog hair on your clothes, is the least of your worries. Shall we make a 'shower before trying on clothes' rule? Hehe.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Namrah said:


> However, asking me not to take my dogs to someplace that they are welcomed is not right. If people object to the pet allowance policy at a given facility, take it up with that facility, not with those that are happy to be able to bring their dogs along to a _welcoming environment_.
> 
> I follow the rules; I do not take my dogs _everywhere_, and I don't appreciate being attacked because of their company when they are allowed to be there.


My thoughts exactly.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

KBLover said:


> My thoughts exactly.


I also agree with the above post. 

The idea of not taking my dog to a dog friendly place, regardless of type, because we MIGHT see a service dog..is laughable. 

If a service dog team doesn't want to see pet dogs then they can just..not go to pet friendly places. but I'm sorry, Im not leaving my dog at home when I go to a perfectly dog friendly place because there is a SLIGHT chance we MIGHT distract a service dog team. You bring your service dog to an outdoor patio restaurant, Petsmart, Dog park, Nordstrom, etc.. then he/she should be ready to ignore/deal with other dogs because they are ALLOWED to be there. 

If the place is dog-friendly. Im taking my dog. Its not breaking any law, its fun for both of us, and I see NO GOOD REASON why I shouldn't. 

Service dogs are very well trained and if they are being brought to dog friendly places, they should be trained to ignore other pet dogs. because its our priveledge to be there..


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Let me make this clear, I am not opposed to dogs on patios, I think it is a great idea.
The more places that open to dogs the better, and that applies to all dogs. I also think many of the dog laws are, outdated and ridiculous. But if the law in the area states that it is not legal to have a pet in that area or store then all dog owners should respect the laws. Not just the people who own larger dogs.


Nova Scotia laws
Live animals not permitted in food establishments
39 (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), an operator must not permit any live animal to be in a food establishment.

http://www.gov.ns.ca/just/regulations/regs/Hpafdsaf.htm 

(2) An operator may permit the following live animals to be in a food establishment in the circumstances indicated:



(a) a guide animal, if permitting the guide animal to enter does not pose a risk of contaminating the food; and



(b) edible fish, crustaceans, shellfish or live fish in an aquarium.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Nobody is arguing that pet dogs are allowed inside food establishments. Nobody is saying they will take their pet dog into any place where the dog is not legally allowed to be.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Patios are part of the restaurant...and are subject to the same restrictions


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

ozzy29 said:


> Patios are part of the restaurant...and are subject to the same restrictions


Depending on where you are I would assume.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

I just found this on the net. It was published in July 2007 and I will search for any updates. It pretty much says what most of the posters on here have stated. What is interesting is that one of the main reasons for NOT having dogs in restaurants is not a health issue but one of dog bites and fights.

*Florida was the first to enact a law explicitly allowing dogs in outdoor areas of restaurants. Sheri McInvale, the former state representative who introduced the legislation, says the biggest opposition to the bill had to do with concerns over dog bites and fights, not health issues. The final bill signed into law contained a provision that restaurants had to carry a minimum level of liability insurance in order to participate in the program.*

I personally would not eat at an outside area that allows dogs...just my personal preference.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

ozzy29 said:


> Patios are part of the restaurant...and are subject to the same restrictions


Did you miss my post? In many places, they are actually not subject to the same restrictions.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> I don't see any issue taking a small dog in a purse in a store as long as it is well behaved. It's a way that I help socialize my dogs. I took Honey Bun (my new Shih Tzu puppy) in a purse to Walmart the other day and you never would have known she was there. She just laid inside the carrier and was quiet as a mouse.
> 
> To the person who said carrying your dog in a purse is a fashion statement and "so 5 years ago"- I wasn't aware that I was doing something outdated. Since apparently I'm only carrying my dog (hidden in a bag) as a fashion statement, I guess I'll have to keep up with the trends better.


And yes I read your post...my point was simply that if the laws have not been amended and as you showed some places have amended their regulations while others have not, people should respect them.
I am all for pet friendly patios and stores


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Then I will restate, with a couple of clarifications: Nobody is arguing that pet dogs are allowed inside food establishments. Nobody (except for luvntzus and maybe one other person back at the start of this thread) is saying they will take their pet dog into any place where the dog is not legally allowed to be -- including outdoor patios that do not allow dogs. The vast majority of people on this thread who do take their dogs into stores ONLY take the dogs into stores where they are actually welcome. Better?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> Nobody is arguing that pet dogs are allowed inside food establishments. Nobody is saying they will take their pet dog into any place where the dog is not legally allowed to be.


Actually there were people early on in this thread that were saying exactly that. They stated that they brought their dogs in inside a bag/carrier and the dog didn't bark or whine and nobody knew they were there.

As far as patio dining with ones dog goes, well, I have done it many times. It was allowed at the restaurant I went to and in fact, encouraged. I doubt any of the other patrons even knew I had a dog there. He was laying flat out on the floor 1/2 under my table no whining, barking etc... Also, he is kept clean so no smell.

oops Crantastic, Ignore that.  I didn't see your last revised post. ha ha


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Much..TY 

Sorry for ranting... I think pets should be allowed on patios.
I wish more cities would change their animal restrictions and laws.

But it really annoys me that restaurants allow pets on patios when it is clearly against the law, just because no one is enforcing the rules..the same thing applies to smoking and pets in stores...People feel that just because they can get away with it that it is alright.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Haha, yeah... I remembered people talking about sneaking their dogs into Wal-Mart and the like in carriers way back when this thread started, but it was only one or two posters, and I'm pretty sure no one has said any such thing in the past 300 or so posts. 

I have absolutely no problem with dogs on patios if they're allowed (and well-behaved, which to me means not bothering other patrons with noise, waste or begging for food or attention). I have taken my dog to a few outdoor patios and it was fine. I wouldn't want to take her into a restaurant, or to see any non-service dogs in one.


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

PappyMom said:


> I used to work at Target.. I was the lingerie specialist/fitting room attendant/sales floor team member. I can tell you horror stories about your 'perfectly clean' clothing that you're purchasing. It's not so clean. People are trying them on, and these people are either kind of clean, or super disgusting. If the employees good, like I was, they discard clothing that comes out looking dingy. These people still manage to get dog fur on the clothes, even if they dog's not with them, deoderant stains, sweat, lint, all kinds of disgusting things on them. That's why you're supposed to wash before wearing. I also think it's disgusting for women to try on nursing bras, but it's allowed.. So I think dog hair on your clothes, is the least of your worries. Shall we make a 'shower before trying on clothes' rule? Hehe.


this is why I like to shower before clothes shopping. it disgusts me when obvious dirty people try on clothes. and my least favorite thing to do is try on bras. who knows how many boobs have been in them? and not only that, but I have seen employees pick up a bra that was on the floor, and put it back in the rack. I would rather have dog hair on the clothes than have all those people who look like they haven't showered for days try them on.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

bigblackdogs said:


> this is why I like to shower before clothes shopping. it disgusts me when obvious dirty people try on clothes. and my least favorite thing to do is try on bras. who knows how many boobs have been in them? and not only that, but I have seen employees pick up a bra that was on the floor, and put it back in the rack. I would rather have dog hair on the clothes than have all those people who look like they haven't showered for days try them on.



Ew, yup..exactly. I used to just charge all of them back.. which means send them back to the company as damaged items and then they'd refund us or send us new ones..

My least favorite moment was getting a bathing suit back, even though you're supposed to keep undergarments on, and it had poopie stains all on the inside!! DISGUSTING!

So like I said, I'd rather have dogs and their fur in there..then all of these disgusting people.


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## sarahw (Apr 5, 2010)

I had been reading through this thread last night and found it very enlightening. While browsing a site that makes fun of bad/unintelligent customers, I came across this entry and had a laugh... Very relevant for this thread. I apologize if this is reopening a subject that might be best left to lay, but I digress:

http://notalwaysright.com/blind-to-reason/4293


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Really? Never? Even if your dog had an emergency, do you really think that the employees wouldn't have to clean and disinfect after your dogs accident? Let me assure you they would, even if you made an effort to clean it up.


For the record, before I enter any business that allows dogs with Basil, I always make a point to go on a short (5-10 minute) walk in a grassy area so Basil can relieve himself and I can make absolutely sure he's completely "empty."


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

PappyMom said:


> So like I said, I'd rather have dogs and their fur in there..then all of these disgusting people.


Not really an either-or scenario and a poor justification for allowing dogs in clothes stores.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

^^ What Waterbaby said!


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

waterbaby said:


> Not really an either-or scenario and a poor justification for allowing dogs in clothes stores.


I wasn't justifying anything. I was merely giving insight to someone who said they wouldn't like dog fur on their perfectly clean and newly purchased clothes, saying they weren't so clean. =]

TBH, I really don't need to justify my choices with you any further, anyway.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

waterbaby said:


> Not really an either-or scenario and a poor justification for allowing dogs in clothes stores.


I explained in my last post what Nordstrom does to keep dog hair off clothes  

Sparknotes version: dogs are not allowed on carpeted areas where clothes are kept. 
People with dogs usually stay in the tiled fragrance, makeup , or pet section.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

PappyMom said:


> I used to work at Target.. I was the lingerie specialist/fitting room attendant/sales floor team member. I can tell you horror stories about your 'perfectly clean' clothing that you're purchasing. It's not so clean. People are trying them on, and these people are either kind of clean, or super disgusting. If the employees good, like I was, they discard clothing that comes out looking dingy. These people still manage to get dog fur on the clothes, even if they dog's not with them, deoderant stains, sweat, lint, all kinds of disgusting things on them. That's why you're supposed to wash before wearing. I also think it's disgusting for women to try on nursing bras, but it's allowed.. So I think dog hair on your clothes, is the least of your worries. Shall we make a 'shower before trying on clothes' rule? Hehe.


As a prior LP (Loss Prevention) assocaite, I can tell you worse things. I didn't work at Target, but for the Military Exchange. I know of some pretty hair raising stuff go that happens in dressing rooms and happens to clothes. Trust me, I NEVER wear something straight off the rack, it ALWAYS gets washed first.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

sarahw said:


> I had been reading through this thread last night and found it very enlightening. While browsing a site that makes fun of bad/unintelligent customers, I came across this entry and had a laugh... Very relevant for this thread. I apologize if this is reopening a subject that might be best left to lay, but I digress:
> 
> http://notalwaysright.com/blind-to-reason/4293


LOL That was cute, but sadly it's so true. I've spent years in the Hospitality and Retail industries. My favorite saying at my current job (SeaWorld) is that when people enter the park, they leave their brains in the car to fry and take stupid pills. Good example is day before yesterday when we had a 7.2 Earthquake, I was evacuating the Wild Artic Exhibit and was asked by a guest why they had to leave the building when the earthquake was over. Umm, because there could be more to come AND the building may be damaged >_<. I mean honestly, we're trying to keep our guests safe and they do NOT want to follow the simplest instructions (don't stand in the boat on the rapids ride, duh). Besides the rule during a quake is that you get outside the building you're in and get at least 1 1/2 time the height of the building away from it (if possible).


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

PappyMom said:


> I used to work at Target.. I was the lingerie specialist/fitting room attendant/sales floor team member. I can tell you horror stories about your 'perfectly clean' clothing that you're purchasing. It's not so clean. People are trying them on, and these people are either kind of clean, or super disgusting. If the employees good, like I was, they discard clothing that comes out looking dingy. These people still manage to get dog fur on the clothes, even if they dog's not with them, deoderant stains, sweat, lint, all kinds of disgusting things on them. That's why you're supposed to wash before wearing. I also think it's disgusting for women to try on nursing bras, but it's allowed.. So I think dog hair on your clothes, is the least of your worries. Shall we make a 'shower before trying on clothes' rule? Hehe.


Oh come on! I currently work at Target as the Fitting Room Attendant and anything else they can come up with in Softlines (clothing). If You are going to go into some details, make sure to include the good stuff! Urine and Poop all over clothing, Blood on bathing suits, poop on Fitting room walls, Male discharge on boxers and women's underwear, Urine soaked pants, used bras, Women discharge on thongs and in pants... This isn't even including the stuff that is taken home, then brought back and returned. The stuff that stinks like BO, Cigs, vomit covered in cat/dog/human hair. You stand at the fitting room and just wonder how in the world the Service desk missed all of it and sent it back to you!

For the most part if you have a good team, it's caught before it hits the floor, but even I miss things. I'm pretty darn good at spotting odd spots on items (most of the time it's blood, makeup, snot or deodorant) but I've put things back on the floor then the next day realize that something isn't right only to find some sort of brown mark on it that you REALLY don't even want to know what it was. 

Next time you go to a Store and speak with any Fitting Room people, ask them about the stories. You'll be shocked!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

And that is why, when I find (for example) a pair of jeans that really fit, I will buy six identical pair without trying them on. 

It also simplifies the whole "Whatever should I wear today?" dilemma.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I explained in my last post what Nordstrom does to keep dog hair off clothes
> 
> Sparknotes version: dogs are not allowed on carpeted areas where clothes are kept.
> People with dogs usually stay in the tiled fragrance, makeup , or pet section.


No, I know. I wasn't responding to you.  Just pointing out that dirty people trying on clothing doesn't logically lead to allowing dogs in stores. Which, apparently wasn't PappyMom's point anyway. I just assumed it was since she was responding to my post. I suppose if a store like Target allowed pets and dog hair got on some of their clothes, they would treat those clothes like any of the others that got dirty because of dirty people and send them back or whatever.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Darkmoon said:


> Oh come on! I currently work at Target as the Fitting Room Attendant and anything else they can come up with in Softlines (clothing). If You are going to go into some details, make sure to include the good stuff! Urine and Poop all over clothing, Blood on bathing suits, poop on Fitting room walls, Male discharge on boxers and women's underwear, Urine soaked pants, used bras, Women discharge on thongs and in pants... This isn't even including the stuff that is taken home, then brought back and returned. The stuff that stinks like BO, Cigs, vomit covered in cat/dog/human hair. You stand at the fitting room and just wonder how in the world the Service desk missed all of it and sent it back to you!
> 
> For the most part if you have a good team, it's caught before it hits the floor, but even I miss things. I'm pretty darn good at spotting odd spots on items (most of the time it's blood, makeup, snot or deodorant) but I've put things back on the floor then the next day realize that something isn't right only to find some sort of brown mark on it that you REALLY don't even want to know what it was.
> 
> Next time you go to a Store and speak with any Fitting Room people, ask them about the stories. You'll be shocked!


Ugh, I honestly didn't know that kind of thing happened


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> Ugh, I honestly didn't know that kind of thing happened


one reason Im terrified to apply to any clothing store.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Oh man.. I don't think I ever want to go clothes shopping again


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Bump...because it seems like people could benefit from reading this again...


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Well-behaved dogs - even big dogs - are welcome in so many places that I really don't understand why people want to break the rules. Places I have been lately with my dog - always with permission before I set foot in the door - include the dry cleaner, multiple True Value/Ace Hardware stores, Lululemon (even though dog hair sticks to those yoga pants like no other), Patagonia, the patios at two Shake Shack locations and a very popular falafel joint, the entryway of my local Thai restaurant (so they can hand me my takeout), and Room & Board, which is a fairly upscale furniture chain. The sales associate at Room & Board gave Biscuit a Milkbone and helped me figure out which sofa fabric would attract less dog hair by petting her with a swatch. Most of these places keep dog treats behind the counter and water bowls outside. If your dog is up for it, it's great socialization and generally seems to make other people happy.

Really, you would be surprised how many fairly large retail chains are welcoming to dogs, even places that seem unlikely. WHY bring your dog anywhere the dog isn't welcome? I obviously am the type to bring my dog everywhere I can, but if I see some yapper in Target, I will definitely complain to the manager. 

The one place I get annoyed that dogs aren't allowed is highway rest stops/the inside of gas station stores. I recently drove 500 miles with just Biscuit, and worrying about pit stops (for me, not the dog) was stressful. I didn't want to leave the dog in the car alone. Guys don't have this problem!


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I absolutely agree with the OP nobody should be ILLEGALLY taking their dog into places it shouldn't go big/little/hairy/hairless/etc I don't care if your dog is small enough to fit in a purse it doesn't belong in the store. Also I have a question...is it insulting or rude to go up to a service dog and ask them to pet them? Sorry if this seems obvious...I mean I've never done it out of respect that the dog is working but one time I asked to pet a SDIT (he was in my college library) I walked up to the girl and asked if I could pet the dog she gave me a really weird/dirty look and said if he sits first...I said ok so she made him sit and I gave him a few pets respectfully said thank you and left. I was thinking if she didn't want me to pet him I can understand that just tell me no but I didn't think it deserved a dirty look...but maybe I'm wrong?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

kcomstoc said:


> I absolutely agree with the OP nobody should be ILLEGALLY taking their dog into places it shouldn't go big/little/hairy/hairless/etc I don't care if your dog is small enough to fit in a purse it doesn't belong in the store. Also I have a question...is it insulting or rude to go up to a service dog and ask them to pet them? Sorry if this seems obvious...I mean I've never done it out of respect that the dog is working but one time I asked to pet a SDIT (he was in my college library) I walked up to the girl and asked if I could pet the dog she gave me a really weird/dirty look and said if he sits first...I said ok so she made him sit and I gave him a few pets respectfully said thank you and left. I was thinking if she didn't want me to pet him I can understand that just tell me no but I didn't think it deserved a dirty look...but maybe I'm wrong?



Yeah, don't ask to pet a service dog. It's there to work and the owner doesn't want the dog pet - they just want to run their errand and go home. It's not so much insulting as just distracting and really inappropriate. It also draws attention to the disability, via the dog, even if you don't mention that because it makes the handler really self-conscious. Just ignore service dogs. Remind yourself that it's akin to a wheelchair or cane. Asking to pet one is about on par with asking if you can play with someone's wheelchair in the parking lot. I know it's not an intuitive line for dog lovers, because it's a dog! They love dogs! They want to meet the dog!

Except when it's working, it's not a dog. It's medical equipment - that someone else needs to function in public. And they're out because they need to be and to get things done, not to socialize their dog.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, don't ask to pet a service dog. It's there to work and the owner doesn't want the dog pet - they just want to run their errand and go home. It's not so much insulting as just distracting and really inappropriate. It also draws attention to the disability, via the dog, even if you don't mention that because it makes the handler really self-conscious. Just ignore service dogs. Remind yourself that it's akin to a wheelchair or cane. Asking to pet one is about on par with asking if you can play with someone's wheelchair in the parking lot. I know it's not an intuitive line for dog lovers, because it's a dog! They love dogs! They want to meet the dog!
> 
> Except when it's working, it's not a dog. It's medical equipment - that someone else needs to function in public. And they're out because they need to be and to get things done, not to socialize their dog.


 Yeah I thought it was something along those lines...that's why I've never done it and I don't see them much at all  thanks cptjack


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

kcomstoc said:


> Yeah I thought it was something along those lines...that's why I've never done it and I don't see them much at all  thanks cptjack


There's a place right over in Morristown which is 20 min from my house. They walk the dogs to be trained in town. Little puppies and older dogs. It's so hard to ignore the puppies while you're waking around town. I kind of have to catch myself from being like "awe so cute!" and just try to ignore them. 

They're literally all over the place. There's even a statue of a person with a seeing eye dog because the town is so well known for it. I can imagine it can be a pain because there so many people and bars and restaurants. I imagine they have some obnoxious drunk people bother them on occasion.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> I absolutely agree with the OP nobody should be ILLEGALLY taking their dog into places it shouldn't go big/little/hairy/hairless/etc I don't care if your dog is small enough to fit in a purse it doesn't belong in the store. Also I have a question...is it insulting or rude to go up to a service dog and ask them to pet them? Sorry if this seems obvious...I mean I've never done it out of respect that the dog is working but one time I asked to pet a SDIT (he was in my college library) I walked up to the girl and asked if I could pet the dog she gave me a really weird/dirty look and said if he sits first...I said ok so she made him sit and I gave him a few pets respectfully said thank you and left. I was thinking if she didn't want me to pet him I can understand that just tell me no but I didn't think it deserved a dirty look...but maybe I'm wrong?


In addition to what CptJack said, I have, on occasion, seen SDs (and SDITs) with vest patches that said "I'm working. Please ask before you pet." or something similar. I always thought it would be rude and inappropriate, even with the patch, to ask if the dog or handler are moving or seem to be working together. However, I've asked and petted when they've been sitting in a restaurant or on a bench and in those cases that particular handler seemed more than happy to allow it. Otherwise I always treat the SD exactly as I would any other assistive device.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm kind of 'ehhh' on the subject. I used to be very cut-dry, and think it was completely stupid for people to bring dogs into places in purses, etc. But I don't really see it that often around here, and the few times I have, they're always well behaved and 99% of the time, I did not even know they were there until I looked closer. If any dog was barking, growling or acting generally obnoxious in a public place (especially that's primarily for humans) whether in a purse or not, it is BS and should be asked to leave. As far as hair, most toy breeds don't shed or shed very little. And honestly how much hair is going to get out if they're in a bag?

I can't imagine putting Jackson in a purse and carrying him around, lol, I just don't think it will ever be my thing. But I do enjoy bringing him wherever he can go. This area is generally very dog friendly too. Basically any restaurant that has an outdoor patio of sorts allows dogs. Jackson is very well behaved and just lays there while we eat, and yes I do sneak him a piece of food sometimes *shrugs*. He comes into Home Depot or Lowes with me, he's often with me if I'm getting oil changed, etc. Nobody has ever said anything to me about walking him in those types of places. 

I can't imagine why anyone would NEED to bring their dog into Target, or the mall, or a grocery store. I just think it's kind of silly. If I am out and about with Jackson, I just won't go into a store like that, even if I really 'NEED' to. I won't leave him in the car that long. The only time I will leave him in the car is to run into Walgreens or a gas station or Chipotle, etc.

But I've become a bit less judgmental of people who do it. As long as they're not hurting anyone or being disruptive in any way, it's just not something on my priority list of things to worry about. Maybe that makes me a bad person. Like I said, it's not something I would do. Don't see a reason at all to bring a dog, in a bag, with me everywhere. But apparently some people do. And certain cultures are highly accepting of this behavior (go to NYC and you see it all the time). And I've really never seen any harm done by these people carrying them in bags.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Yeah... this thread seems to mostly suggest that people shouldn't bring their dogs places where they're explicitly allowed. I can see the argument for making the extra effort to keep them out of places they _aren't_ allowed, but beyond that.... I'm not on board.



> Don't see a reason at all to bring a dog, in a bag, with me everywhere. But apparently some people do.


Its not a need, certainly. But it does seem to me to be a rather innocuous desire for all the reasons you mentioned. The reason I would do it is because I live in the city and its nice to take Pete out to do odd chores - it means we can go out more often than just a dedicated 'walk'. He walks where he can and when he can't he hops into my purse, is all zipped up and out of sight and I do whatever I need to do. As best I can tell 99% of the time no one even knows he's there. I have yet to see any evidence of actual harm. IMO the equation does change if the dog is loose, big or small in those instances I can see why it could be a concern.


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## JeJo (Jul 29, 2013)

CptJack said:


> ...draws attention to the disability, via the dog, even if you don't mention that because it makes the handler really self-conscious. Just ignore service dogs. Remind yourself that it's akin to a wheelchair or cane...
> Except when it's working, it's not a dog. It's medical equipment - that someone else needs to function in public...


Thank you for this sharing as it also addresses a question I had. My hubby and I were having dinner at a small local restaurant last week and as we sat waiting for our order, an older couple with a beautiful Golden Retriever passed by our table as they were being shown to theirs. The quiet, well-mannered dog wore a vest of some kind, marking it, in my eyes, as either a service dog or one in training. 

As they passed by I couldn't help but stare at the dog out of pure admiration for both its impeccable behavior and gorgeous look. In hindsight, ever since, I wondered if my staring so long at that beautiful dog, without a thought of at least saying 'good day' to the couple might have been considered rude. It was not my intention to make the couple feel invisible (nor single them out from any other patrons)... but admittedly, in the moment they kind of were, especially since I had just adopted a dog of similar size and color (though not a golden) and had visions of mine one day being so well-trained (read: had DOG on the brain). Should ever the opportunity arise again, I will now do my best to restrict myself to just an indiscreet side glance and then let everyone just be. 

Thanks, all, for the etiquette lessons. Now I know.


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

Oh come on guys. Everyone here loves their dogs and if you could, you would take them EVERYWHERE! As far as target goes, I know of several people in several different states with toy dogs, that take them into target in a fancy little bag with no issues-wal mart is apparently a no no though.

I have two maltese dogs, I would love to take one of them with me sometimes in one of those fancy little carriers (That I just don't feel I have the money to throw away on right now. OMG Have you ever seen the prices of those things!?). There are tons of times I'd like to take Tucker with me some place but don't want to leave him in the car, so he sits at home.

Also, I am one of 'those people' with 'those little yappy white dogs' and he does bark, too much and it is incredibly embarrassing and I'm sure I've tried to make jokes of it in social situations that I have found us in to make light of the issue because I felt like such a complete idiot and horrible dog owner.

I am not a horrible dog owner-I have one dog who is beautifully behaved in public and another that's a brat, raised them the same. I am working with the yappy one but it's a work in progress. I know how bad it feels to be that person, so I try to empathize with the poor people who have those dogs-their jokes and laughing does not in any way mean they aren't mortified.

And many people who attempt to seek help with reactive dogs like this are given the advice to try to expose those dogs to as much socialization and people as possible-might not always be the right way to go about it-but consider that too.

I totally do not think it's ok to pretend your dog is a service dog when it is not though.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

shellbeme said:


> Oh come on guys. Everyone here loves their dogs and if you could, you would take them EVERYWHERE!


Nope. Yes, I love my dogs, but I have zero desire to take them to a grocery store or a big-box store or anywhere else crowded where I have to buy a bunch of stuff and wait in long lines to pay for it. It's annoying enough going on the subway or streetcar, because everyone wants to pat my dogs or ask me about them (and if they're not actually asking, they're staring). I like taking them into the pet store, and if we're on vacation we'll go into some little shops where dogs are allowed (I always ask) and we'll find a dog-friendly patio for lunch, but as for wanting to take them everywhere? Hell no.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Nope. Yes, I love my dogs, but I have zero desire to take them to a grocery store or a big-box store or anywhere else crowded where I have to buy a bunch of stuff and wait in long lines to pay for it. It's annoying enough going on the subway or streetcar, because everyone wants to pat my dogs or ask me about them (and if they're not actually asking, they're staring). I like taking them into the pet store, and if we're on vacation we'll go into some little shops where dogs are allowed (I always ask) and we'll find a dog-friendly patio for lunch, but as for wanting to take them everywhere? Hell no.


Oh, seriously. I love my kids, but I don't want to take THEM everywhere. The dogs? I do a whole heck of a lot with them, and spend a ton of time with them, but going out and running errands and doing chores? Nope. You want to make me happy with places that allow dogs? Do a dog night at a pool or one of the local lakes (and beach). Dog related festivals (horse and hounds wine festival). Dedicated EVENTS, where I'm actually doing something with the dog -actively- not just having them come along and passively exist while I try to get other things done, turning something that is already a chore into more of one, or activity that's designed to be ME time into DOG time.

Again: I love them. I hike with them multiple miles, multiple times a week. I do training classes. I take them to dog specific and friendly locations entirely so they can be fawned over, focused on, and get a treat and love. I would admittedly LOVE to be able to take them into gas stations and rest area bathrooms, because that's somewhere I really will need to stop when I'm out and about with them. 

Otherwise? Nope. I like doing things with them. I like hanging out at home with them. I feel no need or desire what so ever to take them with me while I pay bills, buy groceries, or otherwise engage in daily living where their presence would complicate things. I love 'em, but not every aspect of my life resolves around them, nor would I care for it to.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

There's nobody on this earth I want to take everywhere with me.


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

sassafras said:


> There's nobody on this earth I want to take everywhere with me.


Amen.



***********


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## mcdavis (May 1, 2012)

I think it was in April this year that I went into a Walmart and there was an older lady pushing a shopping cart round with a 20lb dog (can't recall the breed) sitting inside it. The dog being in the store didn't bother me anywhere near as much as the fact that it was a warm day out and the poor dog had 3 thick woolly coats on - it must have been sweltering. I've also seen someone pushing 2 yorkies around in a shopping cart in Walmart.

I would never think of taking a dog into a grocery store or restaurant however a lot of English pubs welcome dogs which works quite well for a nice ploughmans during a country walk. Hamish was always made very welcome in the Tommy Hilfiger outlet with the staff offering him water and biscuits, and he enjoyed a potter around the North Face outlet so they tended to get a lot more of our business than the stores where dogs weren't allowed.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

shellbeme said:


> Oh come on guys. Everyone here loves their dogs and if you could, you would take them EVERYWHERE!


Oh goddess NO!
*crawls into corner in fetal position*

I love Manna, but she's far from calm enough to take places that have walls or other breakable stuff. I'd be broke repairing buidings


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Yes I can only imagine bringing any of the large dogs I had to some of the small and cramped antique stores I go to. There's a reason people don't tend to take babies or small children to those either.

Otherwise I don't really see a reason to bring my dog to a grocery store. Except to keep him out of a hot car perhaps. Even my 75ib Rottie has one time went under a table and knocked it down and everything went flying,not very fun.
I do like bringing my dogs places,but not everywhere.


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## AmandaN (Apr 15, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I'm kind of 'ehhh' on the subject. I used to be very cut-dry, and think it was completely stupid for people to bring dogs into places in purses, etc. But I don't really see it that often around here, and the few times I have, they're always well behaved and 99% of the time, I did not even know they were there until I looked closer. If any dog was barking, growling or acting generally obnoxious in a public place (especially that's primarily for humans) whether in a purse or not, it is BS and should be asked to leave. As far as hair, most toy breeds don't shed or shed very little. And honestly how much hair is going to get out if they're in a bag?
> 
> I can't imagine putting Jackson in a purse and carrying him around, lol, I just don't think it will ever be my thing. But I do enjoy bringing him wherever he can go. This area is generally very dog friendly too. Basically any restaurant that has an outdoor patio of sorts allows dogs. Jackson is very well behaved and just lays there while we eat, and yes I do sneak him a piece of food sometimes *shrugs*. He comes into Home Depot or Lowes with me, he's often with me if I'm getting oil changed, etc. Nobody has ever said anything to me about walking him in those types of places.
> 
> ...


I agree.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I didn't read all 22pgs, but here's my two cents on the matter. I hate it when people take their dogs into stores, it clearly states you're not allowed. Of course if it's a service dog that's different, but it really annoys me when people do that. They're breaking the law and they just don't care. 

I was at Target waiting for my mother with Luke and a lady came up to me and asked me if I was okay. I explained I was and was just waiting for my mother and she says to me, "Well you can go in." And I said I couldn't, not with a dog with me. She looks at me as if I have two heads and says, "Of course you can. I do it all the time." Then she leaves. I couldn't believe she just told me it was okay to go in, to break the rules, and she does it herself! Oh man. Plus there's supposed to be security guards at that place, where are they? They should be telling those with dogs to leave and put them in their car (with a/c or windows down).


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Oh, seriously. I love my kids, but I don't want to take THEM everywhere. The dogs? I do a whole heck of a lot with them, and spend a ton of time with them, but going out and running errands and doing chores? Nope. You want to make me happy with places that allow dogs? Do a dog night at a pool or one of the local lakes (and beach). Dog related festivals (horse and hounds wine festival). Dedicated EVENTS, where I'm actually doing something with the dog -actively- not just having them come along and passively exist while I try to get other things done, turning something that is already a chore into more of one, or activity that's designed to be ME time into DOG time.
> 
> Again: I love them. I hike with them multiple miles, multiple times a week. I do training classes. I take them to dog specific and friendly locations entirely so they can be fawned over, focused on, and get a treat and love. I would admittedly LOVE to be able to take them into gas stations and rest area bathrooms, because that's somewhere I really will need to stop when I'm out and about with them.
> 
> Otherwise? Nope. I like doing things with them. I like hanging out at home with them. I feel no need or desire what so ever to take them with me while I pay bills, buy groceries, or otherwise engage in daily living where their presence would complicate things. I love 'em, but not every aspect of my life resolves around them, nor would I care for it to.


THIS!! Although I'm lucky in that the gas station two blocks from my house is dog friendly, and they love seeing Kuma.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, don't ask to pet a service dog. It's there to work and the owner doesn't want the dog pet - they just want to run their errand and go home. It's not so much insulting as just distracting and really inappropriate. It also draws attention to the disability, via the dog, even if you don't mention that because it makes the handler really self-conscious. Just ignore service dogs. Remind yourself that it's akin to a wheelchair or cane. Asking to pet one is about on par with asking if you can play with someone's wheelchair in the parking lot. I know it's not an intuitive line for dog lovers, because it's a dog! They love dogs! They want to meet the dog!
> 
> Except when it's working, it's not a dog. It's medical equipment - that someone else needs to function in public. And they're out because they need to be and to get things done, not to socialize their dog.


My boyfriend is looking at a PSD in the next few years and he DOES want people to ask to pet it because it will help him "break the ice" so to speak where social anxiety is concerned. He's going to get a patch that says "please ask to pet".


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kayota said:


> My boyfriend is looking at a PSD in the next few years and he DOES want people to ask to pet it because it will help him "break the ice" so to speak where social anxiety is concerned. He's going to get a patch that says "please ask to pet".


He's probably going to need a sign or something, then. Not because he can't want what he wants, but because most people are way too trained to assume that, given that most handlers really, really don't want that kind of interruption and it's fairly well trained into people to NOT.


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