# Shiba Inu Doing Schutzhund?



## ~Amanda~

I've seen some weird dogs doing Schutzhund, but never a Shiba. I would love to get her into it, I think she would do phenomenal at the scent work and god knows she could use more obedience training. I don't know how amazing she'd be at the chase/subdue part, but she loves to tug. 

It's probably a stretch. Shibas are not dogs that work with their people one on one traditionally, but I figured I'd ask what you guys thought. If it helps, she is very food motivated, has a moderate to high prey drive, has a great sense of sight and smell, and she loves to run. Cons is she at this point in life, is not at all reliable off lead and being a Shiba Inu, I'm not sure she ever will be. She's about 27 lbs. 

I'm also in CT so I've had trouble finding anywhere near me who does it. 

If I'm grasping at straws here, let me know and I wont pursue it. I figured since a bunch of you guys are active in the sport, you'd be able to give me an honest answer. I'm not trying to do it professionally or even compete, it'd just be for fun, exercise and bonding. 

Thanks!


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## packetsmom

You could always try. 

The biggest obstacle I see is that you'd need to get your BH even to just pursue tracking titles and 1/2 of the BH is off leash. All the obedience titles past that are off leash as well. Only tracking continues to be on leash at all levels. If you could get your dog past that, to off leash reliability, you might do well. 

The other obstacle might be finding a supportive club, but that's a challenge for any off breed in Schutzhund. If you have trouble finding one initially, training and trialing for you BH on your own might get them to take you seriously.


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## packetsmom

As an aside, if ScH doesn't work out for you, nosework, SAR tracking, and AKC rally and obedience might. I believe higher levels of obedience and rally require off leash work, but it could get you started. SAR tracking is a bit different than Schutzhund tracking, but is all done on leash and there are titles you can earn and clubs you can train and volunteer with.


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## Indigo

You know your dog better than anyone, but personally I would think a shiba would be too sensitive for bite sports. I love shibas but every single one I've met was extremely touchy and unstable when faced with stress. There's probably ones that aren't - and like I said you know your dog best - I just haven't met one personally.

That said off breeds are not unheard of. There was a corgi that got his SCH II (Schulhaus Billy The Kid UDT, Sch II), and I even found a pic of a cardigan (different dog) in action (http://v.foto.radikal.ru/0705/bc/55e751f5a6d8.jpg). Apparently they changed the rules requiring a high jump with a large dumbell so that Billy was unable to get his SCH III.

If I were in your shoes I would start by getting some obedience and tracking titles so that I could prove to clubs that I'm serious and dedicated to training a shiba to a high level.
Personally though I wouldn't do it. It's a very serious endeavor.


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## packetsmom

This looks like an active club in your area - http://www.quinebaugschutzhund.org/ Here is also a link to the NE region - http://www.newenglandschutzhund.com/

Most clubs that accept new members will be happy to let you come out and watch and might be able to take a look at your dog and give you an honest opinion on her potential.  If it doesn't work out, many of them are also active in other dog sports and could point you in the direction of good places to get started with other sports she might be suited for.

Good luck!


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## MLeiler

EDIT: Before I say anything, I should tell you it does not hurt to try out schutzhund (or just look further into the sport) just for fun. It is typically an expensive sport though...so might want to keep that in mind as well. 

Schutzhund BH has no protection so that is a plus but even with that (as another stated) the obedience for schutzhund is extremely demanding. Do you have any AKC obedience titles with your dog? In my opinion, AKC obedience (or something similar) would be a good start. Your dog will have to be amazingly well behaved off leash (heel perfectly while looking up at you and staying in a down for very long amounts of tim with distractions, for example). The control these dogs/handlers have is amazing. Have you gone to a schutzhund trial? If not, going to one might give you a better idea of what you are getting into. The time involved (even if you have a dog specifically bred for this sport) is unbelievable. 

Although there are rare exceptions (dogs that were not bred for the sport but still compete), this is very, very uncommon. It takes a specific (and quite rare) type of dog to handle the schutzhund sport. If you were able to do the obedience and get your BH, as a general rule (although I obviously do not know your dog personally) the protection part is not suited for shiba inu temperament (drive or nerves). Granted, your dog could be that extremely super rare almost nonexistant exception. 

Schutzhund is one of the easier protection type sport (in my opinion IPO and French Ring make schutzhund look like child's play) but it is still unbelievably demanding on both dog and owner. I cannot stress enough that, 99.9% of the time, the dog must not only be a specific breed but also of specific breeding (bred 100% for schutzhund). 

I do not mean to be negative, and I admire your desire to do something so difficult as schutzhund with your dog. Perhaps, even if you find out your shiba is not suited for sch but you still love the sport, you could always (in the future) get a nice shepherd bred for the sport (would be the best way to start imo). Also, as Packetsmom said, there are many other great sports/activities you could take part in with your shiba  

That being said, if I ever see a shiba inu at a schutzhund trial, I will know it is you (would be pretty neat to see). Best of luck to you both


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## elrohwen

Why don't you just start out with things like AKC tracking, obedience, and rally, plus nosework? All get at the activities you like about Sch, but are more appropriate for all breeds and levels. If you guys are excelling at those, then find a Sch club to work with and see if protection work is something she would enjoy.


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## quatro

MLeiler said:


> Schutzhund is one of the easier protection type sport (in my opinion IPO and French Ring make schutzhund look like child's play) but it is still unbelievably demanding on both dog and owner.


Not correct, there is no difference between Schutzhund and IPO other than the name.


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## MafiaPrincess

I am with Elrohwen's opinion. Have possible schutzhund aspirations.. but start training for the easier venue. My cocker kids do NAMBR ob, and SDDA nosework plus other sports. I'd be looking to train and title in other venues before schutzhund with your shiba.


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## packetsmom

MLeiler said:


> EDIT: Before I say anything, I should tell you it does not hurt to try out schutzhund (or just look further into the sport) just for fun. It is typically an expensive sport though...so might want to keep that in mind as well.
> 
> Schutzhund BH has no protection so that is a plus but even with that (as another stated) the obedience for schutzhund is extremely demanding. Do you have any AKC obedience titles with your dog? In my opinion, AKC obedience (or something similar) would be a good start. Your dog will have to be amazingly well behaved off leash (heel perfectly while looking up at you and staying in a down for very long amounts of tim with distractions, for example). The control these dogs/handlers have is amazing. Have you gone to a schutzhund trial? If not, going to one might give you a better idea of what you are getting into. The time involved (even if you have a dog specifically bred for this sport) is unbelievable.
> 
> Although there are rare exceptions (dogs that were not bred for the sport but still compete), this is very, very uncommon. It takes a specific (and quite rare) type of dog to handle the schutzhund sport. If you were able to do the obedience and get your BH, as a general rule (although I obviously do not know your dog personally) the protection part is not suited for shiba inu temperament (drive or nerves). Granted, your dog could be that extremely super rare almost nonexistant exception.
> 
> Schutzhund is one of the easier protection type sport (in my opinion IPO and French Ring make schutzhund look like child's play) but it is still unbelievably demanding on both dog and owner. I cannot stress enough that, 99.9% of the time, the dog must not only be a specific breed but also of specific breeding (bred 100% for schutzhund).
> 
> I do not mean to be negative, and I admire your desire to do something so difficult as schutzhund with your dog. Perhaps, even if you find out your shiba is not suited for sch but you still love the sport, you could always (in the future) get a nice shepherd bred for the sport (would be the best way to start imo). Also, as Packetsmom said, there are many other great sports/activities you could take part in with your shiba
> 
> That being said, if I ever see a shiba inu at a schutzhund trial, I will know it is you (would be pretty neat to see). Best of luck to you both


You know, I love Schutzhund and really enjoy working my dog, but this kind of elitism, particularly from someone who isn't involved with the sport, just kind of leaves me shaking my head.

"It takes a specific (and quite rare) type of dog to handle the Schutzhund sport."

It takes a specific and quite rare type of dog to compete at the highest levels of the sport, but I've seen all different levels of dogs competing at the other levels. What it DOES take is a huge amount of time and commitment on the part of the handler. Past the BH level, yes, a dog does need the drive for protection, but once you're competing at that level, you'll know if your dog has that drive or not.

When I was looking into Schutzhund at first, I often got a lot of discouragement from other people because my dog is not a purebred anything. People often tried to convince me to do AKC events instead. (I do plan on and hopefully will do AKC events AS WELL.) I knew, though, what I saw in my dog and I really wanted to try this with him. Once I found a club that was supportive, I felt like I did the right thing by trusting my gut and sticking to it. My dog loves the work and even if he never works out for protection, we can still trial in obedience and tracking, up to the highest levels. I also don't necessarily agree that AKC is great preparation for Schutzhund. It often depends on who you train with. It can be, if you get in with the right trainers, or it can actually set you back in Schutzhund if you don't.

If Schutzhund is really what you want to do...I'd contact that club and talk to people local to you who are active in the sport. They'll be honest with you about your dog's potential, which none of us can really see online.

And yeah...IPO is Schutzhund. French Ring is demanding in its own right and it's a lot harder to find clubs for that sport than for Schutzhund.


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## elrohwen

I don't think Sch and AKC are the same thing at all, but I would still recommend AKC based on the OP's post. She thinks her dog would enjoy scent work, and needs more obedience training - both of those are things you can get through AKC sports. I didn't get the impression that she was super sold on Sch and just dying to do it, more that she was looking for fun activities to do with her dog that involve scent work and obedience. Definitely going to some Sch trials/training would help sort out if that's the sport for her, or if some of the AKC sports would fill those roles.

And while I agree that many non-traditional breeds could succeed at the lower levels of Sch, to me it's like wanting to go for a hunting title with a border collie, or something. Sure, the border collie can be taught to retrieve and do the other aspects of the hunt test, but I guess I don't really see the point. I would love to try herding some day, but I'm not going to try it with my hunting breed. I know Sch isn't necessarily as breed specific as hunting or herding, but it does play to certain drives that working breeds are bred for, and shibas are not. There's no harm in checking it out, or even signing up for some training, but I think it's just honest to say that it's probably not going to play into a shiba's strengths nearly as much as other sports.


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## packetsmom

Since you can compete in obedience and tracking even without competing in protection, I really see the dog's off-leash reliability as a bigger issue than it being an off-breed.

I think this also depends on a person's reasons for wanting to do a particular dog sport. One of the neat things about the trial this past weekend that I went to was seeing all the different people involved and their reasons for competing. For the two dogs competing at the ScH3 level (the highest title), this was serious business and would determine their future as breeding studs. Their handlers were their owners, both professional dog trainers and breeders, so for them, this was a serious professional pursuit. Then there was the handler and dog who work as a volunteer SAR dog and handler. That dog isn't trained in protection and never will be. Still, for them, it was an important milestone for them to earn their obedience, tracking, and SAR tracking titles that weekend. Another handler had 3 dogs entered and only one of them was her own. She is a teenager working to build some college savings by handling other people's dogs for them and getting them titled. Their owners watched from the sidelines, their hopes of breeding their dogs hinging on how well that teenager had trained them and was handling them.

Then, there were a few handlers like me, who owned their dogs and lived closely with them as pets. I noticed in almost all cases, these dogs and handlers had a special, closer bond that showed through their work together. They do this because they enjoy doing it together. These people won't trade out a dog that lacks enough drive and won't hand over their dog to someone else to train or handle because the results they are going for aren't always a title, but a relationship. That relationship isn't ruined if the dog skips the jump and doesn't make enough points as long as they can walk off the field together and still enjoy their time together.

So, for me, if it's that relationship you're going for, then as long as both the dog and handler enjoy the sport...whether or not they're the most suited for it or will do the best at it...is immaterial.

I think the only dogs that I'd definitely say should never be trained for Schutzhund are the ones with temperment issues, but when I think about it, even those dogs just shouldn't be trained for protection and might benefit from tracking and obedience. Saying a dog shouldn't be trained for Schutzhund since it isn't suited for protection is, to me, rather like saying a dog shouldn't be trained for AKC obedience because it isn't suited for AKC agility. It doesn't have to be all or nothing.


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## MLeiler

quatro said:


> Not correct, there is no difference between Schutzhund and IPO other than the name.


My bad...not sure where Ipo came from but I was half asleep when I wrote that. Glad you pointed that out! Mondio and french ring I mean. Again... this i just an opinion.


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## MLeiler

elrohwen said:


> I don't think Sch and AKC are the same thing at all, but I would still recommend AKC based on the OP's post. She thinks her dog would enjoy scent work, and needs more obedience training - both of those are things you can get through AKC sports. I didn't get the impression that she was super sold on Sch and just dying to do it, more that she was looking for fun activities to do with her dog that involve scent work and obedience. Definitely going to some Sch trials/training would help sort out if that's the sport for her, or if some of the AKC sports would fill those roles.
> 
> And while I agree that many non-traditional breeds could succeed at the lower levels of Sch, to me it's like wanting to go for a hunting title with a border collie, or something. Sure, the border collie can be taught to retrieve and do the other aspects of the hunt test, but I guess I don't really see the point. I would love to try herding some day, but I'm not going to try it with my hunting breed. I know Sch isn't necessarily as breed specific as hunting or herding, but it does play to certain drives that working breeds are bred for, and shibas are not. There's no harm in checking it out, or even signing up for some training, but I think it's just honest to say that it's probably not going to play into a shiba's strengths nearly as much as other sports.


Said it better than I could...agree 100%


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## MLeiler

packetsmom said:


> You know, I love Schutzhund and really enjoy working my dog, but this kind of elitism, particularly from someone who isn't involved with the sport, just kind of leaves me shaking my head.
> 
> "It takes a specific (and quite rare) type of dog to handle the Schutzhund sport."
> 
> It takes a specific and quite rare type of dog to compete at the highest levels of the sport, but I've seen all different levels of dogs competing at the other levels. What it DOES take is a huge amount of time and commitment on the part of the handler. Past the BH level, yes, a dog does need the drive for protection, but once you're competing at that level, you'll know if your dog has that drive or not.
> 
> When I was looking into Schutzhund at first, I often got a lot of discouragement from other people because my dog is not a purebred anything. People often tried to convince me to do AKC events instead. (I do plan on and hopefully will do AKC events AS WELL.) I knew, though, what I saw in my dog and I really wanted to try this with him. Once I found a club that was supportive, I felt like I did the right thing by trusting my gut and sticking to it. My dog loves the work and even if he never works out for protection, we can still trial in obedience and tracking, up to the highest levels. I also don't necessarily agree that AKC is great preparation for Schutzhund. It often depends on who you train with. It can be, if you get in with the right trainers, or it can actually set you back in Schutzhund if you don't.
> 
> If Schutzhund is really what you want to do...I'd contact that club and talk to people local to you who are active in the sport. They'll be honest with you about your dog's potential, which none of us can really see online.
> 
> And yeah...IPO is Schutzhund. French Ring is demanding in its own right and it's a lot harder to find clubs for that sport than for Schutzhund.


I am sorry to see that my opinion was taken this way. By no means was I trying to put the OP or their dog down. I was simply sharing my opnion of the sport and how demanding it is to train for. If a dog is not suitable for sch traing beyond a bh, that does not make the dog any less of a dog. I simply meant that a breed developed for something much different than the demands of schutzhund will have a muuchhh harder time with the sport. In my opnion, a great handler and lots of time/money will only get you so far...genetics play a big...huge...part in the ability of any dog to compete in any sport. Once again, this is just an opinion and was not intended to start a debate or ruffle feathers. Best wishes to you and your dog.


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## quatro

MLeiler said:


> My bad...not sure where Ipo came from but I was half asleep when I wrote that. Glad you pointed that out! Mondio and french ring I mean. Again... this i just an opinion.


Mondio and FR do not require a dog to track whereas Schutzhund does in addition to OB and protection work. So how does it make SchH easy? Very difficult to offer credible opinions without successful training (titling dogs to level 3) in these "easy" sports


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## MLeiler

I mentioned numerous times throughout my post the difficulty of schutzhund (so much so that I lead a fellow member to believe that I see those who compete in this sport above everyone else). Not once did I call schutzhund easy. However, in my personal opinion, I find the protection portion of this sport kind of weak/soft (compared to ring). That being said, it is still a very demanding sport, and schutzhund demands a high level of precision found in very few sports. Everyone has an opnion and if you do not agree with mine, that is fine with me. To each their own.


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## ~Amanda~

Wow, thanks everyone for the info. It's always been a sport that I admire for the shear challenge of it and the stamina and control that both the dog and handled need to complete. I was never set on it being that my dog doesn't have AKC papers or anything because she was a rescue and she is spayed so will not be bred. I know it requires such an intense bond, trust and loyalty and that really meant something to me. 

Kai goes against many shiba stereotypes, so I thought she might be able to break through and get into the protection side of the sport. I agree with another poster that in my opinion, knowing her how I do, I think it's less that she's an off breed and more of a leash issue. My heart is not set on the sport, I won't be shattered to pieces if she doesn't make it past the bh, but I think I'll give it a shot and see where it takes us. I might just pursue the nose work part of it and can the rest. Mostly I just want to stimulate her, work on our bond, and do something fun. 

Believe me I know it takes a lot to do this sport. I don't want to seem like I'm making a mockery of it or something. I know my dog won't win titles against Mals and Shephards. But I respect it enough to want to be part of it even if in a small way. I'm still working on regular obedience now so I might not be ready to move onto another step for a while! But I can't wait to see a trial. I haven't yet in person, but I bet it is thrilling!


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## MLeiler

You have my respect, and I wholeheartedly wish you and your dog the absolute best!


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