# DO you have Questions about Show Dogs?



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I figured I'd start this thread because I have seen questions regarding show dogs scattered throughout this website.

If you have any questions regarding Show dogs or the Show ring and judging.


Like......
Why does the judge point at people and then they stay in the ring?

or are show dogs allowed to get dirty ever?

go ahead and ask no matter how insane the question, We wont judge.


There are many people on here that can help answer your questions and While some of us "show folk" may have differing views, we will try and answer your questions.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Can you buy a show quality pup and show them, with no intentions of breeding, without having to co-own?

How often do you show?

How often and how far do you travel to show?


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Can you buy a show quality pup and show them, with no intentions of breeding, without having to co-own?


Yes you can. Although when buying a male show puppy most breeders will (as part of the contract) get 1 or 2 stud services of their choice(to their own bitches) However I know many people who own male show dogs that are Champions and the breeders have never requested stud service and the owners have never bred them ether.




Nargle said:


> How often do you show?


This Varies considerably from person to person.

But I enter about 10 to 15 shows a year (just conformation)





Nargle said:


> How often and how far do you travel to show?


again this can vary from person to person.

The farthest I've traveled for a show was 5 hours away. but I would only do that once a year. most other shows I go to are within a two hour drive.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Can you buy a show quality pup and show them, with no intentions of breeding, without having to co-own?





> How often do you show?


Depends on my funds for the year....



> How often and how far do you travel to show?


Again, depends on the above. I travelled from WI to TX for the show circuit this summer.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm guessing it's a different story with females then?

I'd like to show just for fun some day, though I haven't settled on a gender or even a breed, lol! I love going to dog shows, though, and I've wanted to participate since I was a kid. I don't plan on being a breeder until MAYBE some day waayyy waayyy in the future XD


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I'm guessing it's a different story with females then?
> 
> I'd like to show just for fun some day, though I haven't settled on a gender or even a breed, lol! I love going to dog shows, though, and I've wanted to participate since I was a kid. I don't plan on being a breeder until MAYBE some day waayyy waayyy in the future XD


I've never had a bitch for show purpose so I'm not sure what their contract looks like.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Depends on the breeder you're working with, what you want out of the bitch, etc.

I "bought" my bitch on a co-ownership. For ownership outright I would have had to pay $2500 for her. Instead, she was offered to me on co-ownership with the following agreement:

- One breeding to stud dog AM/CAN CH Andaka-Zederland's U R It
CD, RAE "Tag"
- Stud dog owner takes first pick male
- I receive second and third picks of the litter
- Rest of the litter is split between us

You really cannot get a better co-ownership than that. Many co-ownerships on bitches require a litter back, you pay for the stud dog, you pay for the whelping and care of puppies, and then when they're of age, the other owner of the bitch takes the puppies, and homes them herself.

No thank you


----------



## Toby4Life (Jun 2, 2008)

I'll bite though this may make me unpopular (if it's not too late already ):

Can you elaborate on the point of showing, especially in your cases, Xeph and Keechak, because you show "working" dogs. The only breeds I can really understand showing are dogs that don't necessarily have a defined purpose. But in your cases shouldn't the goal to "better the breed" be based solely on your dogs ability to do the work they were bred for.

Now I'm sure both of you are concerned with that and ensure that part of your dogs standards as well, but does it really matter to the breed if the slope of their back is more inclined than it should be? 

I always think about the BC enthusiasts argument (at least what I've read it to be) - "Our dogs are bred to herd, if they do that better than any other dog than they are the best example of their breed, regardless of 'conformation' standards". 

I completely get that and I guess I'm confused why other breed enthusiasts (and just people in general) don't adhere to this way of thinking. 

Of course this is coming from someone who doesn't care what their dogs look like and only ask them to be good family dogs.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If a GSD "Drops" more in the rear "than it should" it can be detrimental to working ability. For me, personally, conformation is not on the "bettering the breed" side of it for me. For me, it's just plain FUN!

My "bettering the breed" side is getting my Shepherds into performance events. Maintaining what I have conformationally (while improving on that dog's conformational aspects) IS important....in order for me to have an animal that can win both in conformation and performance.

Why people show in conformation is as varied as why people show in performance.

I can't entirely follow the "If my dog works better than any other dog, conformation standards be damned" because I know of many great working dogs that are dysplastic or have bad elbows or bad eyes, or or or...they work for the joy of the work, but they're too stupid to stop when they're in pain.

Standards also keep a breed LOOKING like a breed. There are multiple lines of GSDs, and they all look vastly different...but you still recognize it as a GSD


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Toby4Life said:


> I'll bite though this may make me unpopular (if it's not too late already ):
> 
> Can you elaborate on the point of showing, especially in your cases, Xeph and Keechak, because you show "working" dogs. The only breeds I can really understand showing are dogs that don't necessarily have a defined purpose. But in your cases shouldn't the goal to "better the breed" be based solely on your dogs ability to do the work they were bred for.
> 
> ...


I think your question is wonderful IMO.

For me a Championship is not terribly important it would just be a plus. I Will not offer him for stud if he doesn't show great herding instinct and ability, and in turn I will not allow him to breed to any bitches that do not also show great herding instinct and ability.

But to me a Ch. in ASCA means that my dog could physically do the work of herding cows from dusk till dawn if he had to. This is something I will never be able to personally test him in. A simple 5 minute herding trial does not test the dogs physical limitations. 

A dog who is severely cow hocked can probably finish a herding trial and qualify, however that same dog could not trot for 8 hours a day dodging and heeling cattle, it would be in pain after an hour.


----------



## Toby4Life (Jun 2, 2008)

So essentially you both do it as an additional aspect, but not necessarily the main aspect of judging the "standards" of your breeds. Good to hear and that I can appreciate.

I just watch these dog shows and I realize many owner/handlers are in the same boat as you two, but I also fear many focus solely on their dogs ability to conform to the written standard and look of the breeds and I don't see how that helps anyone.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My personal feeling is they don't conform if they can't/won't work. Perfection in the work and lack of conformation is just as bad though, IMO


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

To me The perfect dog (and what every breeder should work towards) is a conformational correct dog who excels at breed specific activities.


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I _don't_ want my question to start a debate or anything, but..

What makes people choose AKC over UKC? I know there are differences in terms of the "feel" of the events, with AKC being a bit more formal, but is that it? Are AKC trials more common, which would make people more inclined to choose to compete in AKC Conf? Are AKC Champions more exceptional than UKC ones, on average?


----------



## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

I've a question. When I enter the dog show site, why do some of the handlers act like they're the world! They don't allow you to touch or talk to the person period!

Also another question. Why do they allow the dogs to jump on the handlers?


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I _don't_ want my question to start a debate or anything, but..
> 
> What makes people choose AKC over UKC? I know there are differences in terms of the "feel" of the events, with AKC being a bit more formal, but is that it? Are AKC trials more common, which would make people more inclined to choose to compete in AKC Conf? Are AKC Champions more exceptional than UKC ones, on average?


I would love to do UKC but there are no trials close to me. UKC doesn't hold as many trials as AKC and as you guessed it is much less available.



MoonStr80 said:


> I've a question. When I enter the dog show site, why do some of the handlers act like they're the world! They don't allow you to touch or talk to the person period!
> 
> Also another question. Why do they allow the dogs to jump on the handlers?


I allow Hawk to jump on me because I like to cuddle with him. But he must get off when given the command.

I suppose many Handlers at shows could be very stressed out and stress can make some people very rude.

But I show Hawk myself I don't use a handler.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I've a question. When I enter the dog show site, why do some of the handlers act like they're the world! They don't allow you to touch or talk to the person period!


Sometimes that's just the general attitude of the handler, other times people are stressed trying to make their ring time.

I've had VERY stressful days where I have only a couple minutes to get my dog to the ring and people approach me trying to engage in small talk. I try very hard not to be rude and I say "Please excuse me, I must get to my ring or I'll miss my class. I'd be happy to speak with you when I'm done showing my dog though." And I stay true to my word...people are welcome to talk with me ring side or follow me back to my set up.

I don't allow many people to touch my dogs before they exhibit any more, because it messes up their coats. Poodle people take a PAINSTAKING amount of time grooming their dogs for the ring....would you like it if you just spent 40 minutes getting your dog's topknot just right, only to have a sticky fingered child come over and mess it all up?

Or after you've spent an hour scissoring your PWD to get the chest looking right, and then some person comes along and "fuzzles" the dog? A lot of work goes into grooming these dogs before ring time, and it only takes a couple of seconds to mess it up, and the appearance of the dog is just as important as the structure of a dog.



> Also another question. Why do they allow the dogs to jump on the handlers?


Why not? It's personal preference, and it helps a lot of dog (and handlers) destress. I allow my dogs to jump up on me while we're waiting, or after a job well done.


----------



## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

Do all good breeders allow for co-ownership of their show quality female pups? 

Or is this something that you discuss with the breeder you want to purchase your pup from? Can you decided on when you want to breed her or is it up to the breeder to decide?

What's the maximum age you can show your dog? Does it depend on the breed?


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Kina_A said:


> Do all good breeders allow for co-ownership of their show quality female pups?


Assuming the breeder has already decided that they will allow someone to take one of their pups for show, no not all breeders require co-ownership, and it is not considered a good breeder vs. bad breeder thing.





Kina_A said:


> Or is this something that you discuss with the breeder you want to purchase your pup from? Can you decided on when you want to breed her or is it up to the breeder to decide?


If the pup is co-own you must discuss potential studs with the breeder. if you go ahead and breed the bitch without consent of the breeder you will more than likely be breaking contract and and guarantees of the dog will be void.




Kina_A said:


> What's the maximum age you can show your dog? Does it depend on the breed?


You can show your dog till he's walking in the grave, but no younger than 6 months. There are "Fun" classes for puppies under 6 months that don't count.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Do people bring their pets to shows? If so, do they have to pay entrance fees? I noticed a lot of the people with show dogs had dogs they weren't showing with them, and I wonder if there were some people in the audiences that just came to watch with their pet. Or would this be frowned on?


----------



## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Nargle said:


> Do people bring their pets to shows? If so, do they have to pay entrance fees? I noticed a lot of the people with show dogs had dogs they weren't showing with them, and I wonder if there were some people in the audiences that just came to watch with their pet. Or would this be frowned on?


Unentered dogs are not allowed at AKC events. I think it is as much of a liability thing as anything else. Having said that, though, I know people do bring other dogs in, particularly at outdoor shows.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Do people bring their pets to shows? If so, do they have to pay entrance fees? I noticed a lot of the people with show dogs had dogs they weren't showing with them, and I wonder if there were some people in the audiences that just came to watch with their pet. Or would this be frowned on?


That depends on the venue (ex. AKC, UKC, ASCA, CKC....)

In AKC it is against the rules for any dog to be on show grounds that isn't entered for that day. (that's the rules for conformation, other sports are different)

in ASCA other dogs are allowed as long as they belong to the exhibitors.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Nargle said:


> Can you buy a show quality pup and show them, with no intentions of breeding, without having to co-own?
> 
> How often do you show?
> 
> How often and how far do you travel to show?


-Depends on your breeder, but yes you can find breeders who will sell both males and females outright for you to show with no intentions of breeding. My Cavalier was bought outright, the only stipulation in is contract is that he must complete all his health test and be a CH before I decide to breed, but I don't need the breeder's approval or signature for any breeding I may chose to do with him. When I get my Afghan show bitch I plan to buy her outright, most Afghan breeders I know will only sell a bitch outright. 

-At the moment I'm not doing any showing since I've retired my Cavalier. But I was doing about 2 shows a month with him. Even though my current dog is retired I still go to the shows to see what the breeders are putting out there. Since I don't have to get a dog ready and just have to show up I try to make it all the shows within driving distance, which is about 3 weekends a month. 

-Being in California there's loads of shows all over the place. I've never had to travel more than 3 hours for a show, but some of the specialties can be 5 hours away.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

MissMutt said:


> I _don't_ want my question to start a debate or anything, but..
> 
> What makes people choose AKC over UKC? I know there are differences in terms of the "feel" of the events, with AKC being a bit more formal, but is that it? Are AKC trials more common, which would make people more inclined to choose to compete in AKC Conf? Are AKC Champions more exceptional than UKC ones, on average?


I have seen dogs win CH titles at UKC shows who would be dismissed from the AKC ring for lack of merit, or would always be at the end of the line.

You can find mediocre CHs in any venue. It is generally understood that the AKC CH title is more difficult than others to attain because of the requirement for major wins.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

MissMutt said:


> I _don't_ want my question to start a debate or anything, but..
> 
> What makes people choose AKC over UKC? I know there are differences in terms of the "feel" of the events, with AKC being a bit more formal, but is that it? Are AKC trials more common, which would make people more inclined to choose to compete in AKC Conf? Are AKC Champions more exceptional than UKC ones, on average?


Most often it's because there is little to no serious competition for most breeds in UKC. There's also a small percentage of dogs that are registered with the UKC in the first place, so people are to lasy or just don't have the time to dual register their AKC dog with the UKC. I've never personaly been to a UKC event, but I would like to go one day, from what I've heard it's a great group of people just having some fun with their dogs. As far as the breeds I'm interested in the quality of dogs in the UKC is lacking and it's more done for fun or as an intro for new owners who aren't ready to try their hand at AKC competitions yet.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Another big difference are the requirements for attaining a license to judge. In AKC judges must apply for and complete the education requirements for each breed they are approved to judge.

In UKC, when you are approved, you are approved in one fell swoop for all breed, except, I believe APBTs, Eskies, and the Belgian Shepherds.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Kina_A said:


> Do all good breeders allow for co-ownership of their show quality female pups?
> 
> Or is this something that you discuss with the breeder you want to purchase your pup from? Can you decided on when you want to breed her or is it up to the breeder to decide?
> 
> What's the maximum age you can show your dog? Does it depend on the breed?


-No. It depends on the breeder and the contract you've agreed on. In some breeds breeders prefer to sell their dogs outright and in other breeds breeders prefer to keep all their females and don't sell them. Of course you'll find every kind of breeder in all the breeds.

-Any breed backs or details of co-ownership need to be fully disscused and written down BEFORE the contract is signed. It's up to you and the breeder to determine the terms of your agreement.

-There is no maximum age limit for showing. In some breeds there's dogs who didn't get their CH till they were 11. But there is a min age limit of 6 months. In the UK a dog isn't allowed to earn a CC(champ certificate) until they're 1 year old, and they need 3 CC's to become a show champion.



Keechak said:


> If the pup is co-own you must discuss potential studs with the breeder. if you go ahead and breed the bitch without consent of the breeder you will more than likely be breaking contract and and guarantees of the dog will be void.


Actually it all depends on the agreement and terms of your co-ownership, whcih by the way AKC does not enforce any co-ownership agreements. If it's in your contract to discuss studs, then that's what you must do. Alot of the co-ownerships I see are just a co-ownership until the dog becomes a CH and then the breeder signs over full ownership. A co-ownership is a huge can of worms and no co-ownership is exactly like the next one. Co-ownerships can be great for both owners and dog, but they can also turn sour. Anyone wishing to persue a co-ownership needs to make sure they fully understand the contract and that everything is in writing.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Can a dog be registered and compete in both UKC and AKC? (For years I just assumed the United in the UKC meant United Kingdom!)

How hard is it to maintain a show dog when you aren't showing him for a few months? Assuming you haven't done anything to "ruin" the dog, like clipping instead of stripping a terrier coat? How easy is it to ruin a dog for show?

How do you get started? The idea of competing in conformation has just taken a hold of my mind (always been more a preformance kind of gal), and it seems like there's lots of information out there to get better, but not how to start. How do you pick your breed?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Can a dog be registered and compete in both UKC and AKC? (For years I just assumed the United in the UKC meant United Kingdom!)


Yes. There are many dogs that are AM/CAN/UKC/INTL champions



> How hard is it to maintain a show dog when you aren't showing him for a few months? Assuming you haven't done anything to "ruin" the dog, like clipping instead of stripping a terrier coat? How easy is it to ruin a dog for show?


Depends on the breed. Shepherds are relatively easy to maintain. I'm keeping my girl in shape by gaiting her on a treadmill for a few miles



> How do you get started? The idea of competing in conformation has just taken a hold of my mind (always been more a preformance kind of gal), and it seems like there's lots of information out there to get better, but not how to start. How do you pick your breed?


Some people are born into it, others (like me) get interested late, and fall into it in various ways. Picking your breed for show isn't much different than picking a pet. The biggest consideration in terms of showing is, IMO, coat....how much grooming do you want to do at home to MAINTAIN, and how early are you willing to get to a show to get your dog ready in time.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> Can a dog be registered and compete in both UKC and AKC? (For years I just assumed the United in the UKC meant United Kingdom!)


Oh oh I know one!  

Yes you can do both!




RaeganW said:


> How do you pick your breed?


Since I'm in the "just getting started" boat...I'm starting by picking a breed I want to live with. My dogs now are beginning performance dogs, but we spend a LOT more time together outside the ring than inside, and my dogs are, and hopefully always will be, pets first. I want the same to apply to a show dog.

I also want a breed that I can handle myself in the ring, and one in which a single dog can swap back and forth between "working" and "showing" and not be an exception to the rule. If possible, I would also like a breed with relatively few health issues.

From there it's a matter of studying the breed further, finding breeders that match your goals and learning from them, etc...


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> How hard is it to maintain a show dog when you aren't showing him for a few months? Assuming you haven't done anything to "ruin" the dog, like clipping instead of stripping a terrier coat? How easy is it to ruin a dog for show?


For Aussies it is very hard to ruin them for the show ring. In fact the only problem I've heard people complain about with aussies is the bitches blowing coat all the time (but that's in many breeds)

I just feed good high protein food and keep him fit and well muscled.




RaeganW said:


> How do you get started? The idea of competing in conformation has just taken a hold of my mind (always been more a preformance kind of gal), and it seems like there's lots of information out there to get better, but not how to start. How do you pick your breed?


I was born into the dog world. My mom trained for obedience competitions and that's where I started. As far as breed goes, I just stuck with what we already had, aussies. With Aussies tho it's hard to find a good herding and conformation quality, most aussie breeders do one or the other. So while Hawkeye may not get his AKC CH I'm hoping he will get his ASCA CH.

He just isn't AKC type.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> Can a dog be registered and compete in both UKC and AKC? (For years I just assumed the United in the UKC meant United Kingdom!)
> 
> How hard is it to maintain a show dog when you aren't showing him for a few months? Assuming you haven't done anything to "ruin" the dog, like clipping instead of stripping a terrier coat? How easy is it to ruin a dog for show?
> 
> How do you get started? The idea of competing in conformation has just taken a hold of my mind (always been more a preformance kind of gal), and it seems like there's lots of information out there to get better, but not how to start. How do you pick your breed?


-Yes dogs can be dual registered and compete iwith loads of different registries. Most often you'll see dogs with AKC and a seperate breed registry, but in the US you may also see dogs registered with the United Kennel Club, Canadian Kennel Club, and Mexico Kennel Club. And if they're imported from overseas they may be registered with any variety of clubs in thier home counrty.

-Maintance depends on the breed. Personaly I don't find it too difficult to keep my dog in show condition during any off seasons. For may Cavalier all I need to do is a quick daily brush out and then an aditional toothbrushing and nail check once a week. As far as excercise goes to keep him in shape, he's already rather active and likes to play fetch all the time. Regardless if he was a show dog or not his excercise routine wouldn't change. I can't imagine maintance would be too difficult for owners of most breeds; since keeping them up to show standards is something owners have already commited to and are used to doing on a regular basis regardless if it is or isn't show season. 

-You pick your breed based on what you want and can live with. Most show dogs are pets first show dogs second, so unless you're buying a dog just to have a champion show dog, you should go with whatever breed suits you best as a pet. 

The best way to get started into the show world, if you weren't born into it, is to start going to shows and meeting the other breeders and handlers. If you genuinely want to learn how to get into it most breeders will help you out and show you the ropes, all you have to do is ask. And it doesn't matter how old you are either, you don't have to be a sprit young teenager to get started. There's lots of older people of various ages joining in on the fun on a regular basis.


----------



## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Keechak said:


> ...
> If you have any questions regarding Show dogs or the Show ring and judging...


First, my apologies if this has already been answered, but YES, YES, YES - I have a question:

Perhaps this is _not_ the case but, recently, I’ve spoken with a half dozen breeders (of various breeds in various groups) about this. _*Every single one*_ has given me a diplomatic, but lame answer. And *every single one *has acknowledged this same scenario:

For breeders who show their own dogs, it is apparently difficult for them (or owner/handlers) to win over a professional handler. Reasons given for this (off the record) include politics, knowing/being friends with the judge, money (as apparently judges often get paid a bonus per dog, so that the handler who brings 10-20 dogs to a show will be given preference over the breeder who will sporadically bring out 1,2 or 3 dogs???), and various forms of even more unpalatable "reasons". 

One breeder gave me a reasonable answer stating that, all things being equal, _good_ professional handlers will always have the edge, as they do this practically every single weekend, and are simply more skilled and “better” at handling...

However, we’ve all seen _*obviously mediocre dogs*_ win, over truly wonderful examples of their respective breeds. It leaves one scratching one’s head!

Politics and possible repercussions aside, if “everybody” knows this goes on, why is everyone so hesitant to say anything, and _why don’t breeders get together and do something about it_???


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Because sometimes, in a given breed, the ethical people are few and far between. This is a dying sport, and many are torn between turning people in and getting outted themselves, or just "playing the game" to keep things going.

Jimmy Moses could take a goat into a ring, and everybody knows it. He has, in some respects, earned that.


----------



## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I personally do not show as of now, but I have handled and am starting to look into getting my show dog in the next few years. This year I just got my feet wet with handling (wow, fun, exciting, and a lot of hard work), but I do know the answer to some of these questions.



Nargle said:


> How often and how far do you travel to show?


The woman I handled for at the UKC Premier traveled from North Carolina to Lower Michigan. One of her friends drove from Georgia to Lower Michigan (About 13 hours). This is also one of the biggest shows in the UKC so it wasn't uncommon to see someone from across the country there. For where I live though (about 20mins away from the UKC headquarters) you can drive no more then 3 hours and be at a show every weekend. Just as a spectator I went for 5 this year getting to know the ins and outs.



MissMutt said:


> What makes people choose AKC over UKC? I know there are differences in terms of the "feel" of the events, with AKC being a bit more formal, but is that it? Are AKC trials more common, which would make people more inclined to choose to compete in AKC Conf? Are AKC Champions more exceptional than UKC ones, on average?


Personally I like the UKC just because it is less formal. You can't have professional handlers handle for you. It's great seeing new people in the ring (like myself) and not feel intimidated. Heck you can be in rattie jeans, a old beat up t-shit and your not judged the dog is. AKC and the UKC also have some differences in what they expect for certain breeds. Also the AKC doesn't recognize a lot of the breeds that the UKC does. I have heard that it is harder to get an AKC CH then UKC CH. 

As for is AKC trails more common the UKC, it depends where you live. I live 20mins away from the UKC headquarters and it's hard to find AKC shows in the area. UKC showings and UKC events are all over the place. I can find something happening from the UKC at least 3 out of 4 weekends of the month in less then a 2 hours drive. 



MoonStr80 said:


> I've a question. When I enter the dog show site, why do some of the handlers act like they're the world! They don't allow you to touch or talk to the person period!


Think about it this way. Some of those dogs have been bathed, groomed, and toyed with longer then it took for you to decide to go to the show, get ready and drive to he show. I spoke to one Yorkie handler who told me that he spent 5 hours on his dogs coat before every show. Would you want some random person touching your dog?

There are some... neurotic people though. I know one lady a few years ago that would FLIP OUT on you if you even took a picture of her dogs. You have them everywhere.

For the most part though, I have never had an issue petting a dog at a show. It helps that I'm more interested in the short haired no grooming required dogs, but I have few issues. 



Nargle said:


> Do people bring their pets to shows? If so, do they have to pay entrance fees? I noticed a lot of the people with show dogs had dogs they weren't showing with them, and I wonder if there were some people in the audiences that just came to watch with their pet. Or would this be frowned on?


The UKC asks that there are no non-show/non-service dogs on the grounds for safety reasons. Handlers spend a lot of time making sure their dogs are well socialized. Most "normal" folks do not take that time to train and socialize their dogs so they get into fights and cause issues. I brought Nub to the UKC Premier though even though I shouldn't have. There were a lot of people that wanted to meet him, and he needed the socialization. So I brought him and we trained mot of the time there. If I was asked to leave I would have no issues. But I knew that Nubs would behave and did. I don't bring him to most shows though because he doesn't need to be there and if I had him, how am I to love on all the other dogs?



RaeganW said:


> Can a dog be registered and compete in both UKC and AKC? (For years I just assumed the United in the UKC meant United Kingdom!)


Yes, you can be DUAL registered with the UKC/AKC or even UKC/AKC/CKC or more (like for an APBT UKC/ADBA (America Dog Breeder Association) 



RaeganW said:


> How do you get started? The idea of competing in conformation has just taken a hold of my mind (always been more a preformance kind of gal), and it seems like there's lots of information out there to get better, but not how to start. How do you pick your breed?


For me, I just really got interested in it in the past 2 years. I got to handle this year for a friend's friend and LOVED it. I'm in the process of finding someone locally that I can have as a mentor. Someone that is already in the ring and can show me the ropes. I talk to people at the shows, as questions when I don't know, and just learn when I can.

As for picking a breed, well that all depends on the person. I've fallen in LOVE with the APBT since I've owned one. I'm not 100% sure if it is the breed I'm going to stick with to show/handle/breed, but I'm pretty sure I've found my love. It just depends on what you want to do.



prntmkr said:


> Politics and possible repercussions aside, if “everybody” knows this goes on, why is everyone so hesitant to say anything, and _why don’t breeders get together and do something about it_???


Same reasons why we don't stand up to our government for doing things that we all know they are doing. It will happen. That's why I like the UKC over AKC. It doesn't seem to happen AS MUCH in the UKC as AKC. It still does but doesn't seem as common.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Darkmoon said:


> Same reasons why we don't stand up to our government for doing things that we all know they are doing. It will happen. That's why I like the UKC over AKC. It doesn't seem to happen AS MUCH in the UKC as AKC. It still does but doesn't seem as common.


I've heard that UKC doesn't allow professional handlers.


----------



## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Because sometimes, *in a given breed, *the ethical people are few and far between. This is a dying sport, and many are torn between turning people in and getting outted themselves, or just "playing the game" to keep things going.
> 
> Jimmy Moses could take a goat into a ring, and everybody knows it. He has, in some respects, earned that.


Thanks for the prompt answer, Xeph...

Thinking back, I had put the question breeders of the GSD, Portie, Briard, BRT, Bouv and OES (hmmm... all working and herding dogs!?!), from both Canada and the US. 

The question was prompted after witnessing a very slick handler with a seemingly crippled GSD. He skillfully made sure his dog took _very_ tight circles in the ring, as it could not possibly have kept up with the other dogs otherwise. It was obvious as to what he was doing. The poor dog's hobbling, practically brought tears to my eyes. I had to ask a few GSD people around me if I was actually seeing what I was seeing. And yes, the dog took breed. 

Admittedly, I'm not really keen on dog shows. And I'm admittedly bias in favour of excellence in movement, especially in a dog supposedly bred for work. I just couldn't believe it...

I did keep an eye on the handler. He had brought quite a few dogs to the show, and did extremely well for him$elf that day. The usual gasps and expletives were heard being mumbled from the crowds. But inside the rings, for the most part, the losers were very gracious - again and again.


----------



## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Keechak said:


> I've heard that UKC doesn't allow professional handlers.


They don't, but there are still professional handlers in UKC, they just are kept on a "Down low". I was pointed out in a group ring which was professional handlers and who wasn't. It was interesting. They may not be allowed but they are still there.

Technically I was a "Professional Handler" because the owner of the dogs I was with paid for my meal one night.

There is still politics even without the professional handlers.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I have never had any trouble winning if I have a good dog, pro handlers or not. I show Rotties, and there are a LOT of professional handlers. 

If you have a good dog, which is in good condition, and you can present it reasonably well, you will do your share of winning, pros or not.

That is my personal experience anyway. My opinion? Those that do all the whining about politics and pro handlers need better dogs. 



prntmkr said:


> First, my apologies if this has already been answered, but YES, YES, YES - I have a question:
> 
> Perhaps this is _not_ the case but, recently, I’ve spoken with a half dozen breeders (of various breeds in various groups) about this. _*Every single one*_ has given me a diplomatic, but lame answer. And *every single one *has acknowledged this same scenario:
> 
> ...


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Nargle said:


> Can you buy a show quality pup and show them, with no intentions of breeding, without having to co-own?
> 
> How often do you show?
> 
> How often and how far do you travel to show?


Yes. I've done so.

Though it can vary by breeder. What quality a breeder lets go under what agreement depends on the breeder and what they want. 

It can change year to year but we try to show for about 9 months out of the year 1-2 shows a year and any extras we can get in money/time allowing. 

The shortest distance I traveled was about 2 miles. The longest shows can be like a days drive. Many average 8-12hrs without stops.


----------



## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

I have one!!

I'm from Canada, so this would appply to CKC, but...

Could I have never shown a dog before (mine or any other) and, assuming my dog is a CKC registered purebred, unaltered, groomed properly and such, enter a show and show my dog? Or do I need to be a "registered" handler, or take classes, etc? Would I be laughed out of the ring?

And do I HAVE to wear a skirt, blouse, and blazer?


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Nargle said:


> I'm guessing it's a different story with females then?
> 
> I'd like to show just for fun some day, though I haven't settled on a gender or even a breed, lol! I love going to dog shows, though, and I've wanted to participate since I was a kid. I don't plan on being a breeder until MAYBE some day waayyy waayyy in the future XD


Again it depends on the breeder, not always gender. 

I have a show quality female and no where in the contract am I obligated to breed or send the female back to the breeder to breed.



Squeeker said:


> I have one!!
> 
> I'm from Canada, so this would appply to CKC, but...
> 
> ...


Now I don't know about CKC but

I know many people who never showed a dog before and just went for it. One showed dog for the first time and took some major wins and finished quickly. You can bet they were very happy. 

It doesn't go so well for everyone. You don't have to be a registered handler or pro handler, lot's of people owner handle. If you wanted to take some conformation classes with your dog that would help you both. You can practice on your own too, but obviously in a class setting there are other dogs around instead of just at home or something without much distraction.

Don't know about CKC but here you don't have to dress up fancy. I know AKC is a bit more formal then most and I don't show there but they have shows close to me and not everyone is dressed all fancy and their dogs have still won.



Toby4Life said:


> I'll bite though this may make me unpopular (if it's not too late already ):
> 
> Can you elaborate on the point of showing, especially in your cases, Xeph and Keechak, because you show "working" dogs. The only breeds I can really understand showing are dogs that don't necessarily have a defined purpose. But in your cases shouldn't the goal to "better the breed" be based solely on your dogs ability to do the work they were bred for.
> 
> ...


The point of showing is to see how a dog measures up to their breed's standard. Which means what that breed should look like. When you see a specific breed you should be able to recognize them as such. 

There is variance in type in Pits for example, but they can still meet the standard and not all look exactly alike. If you know the bloodlines well enough at times you can recognize what bloodline they are from by their physical traits which might differ from another though both conform. I think it is important to write standards with function in mind and what would be the best for a working dog. 

I show because it is a little addictive, once you start it's hard to stop (if you enjoy it). I do in fact enjoy and my dogs enjoy it too. Some will get upset if they can't go or think they are not going. It seems they know it is "show time" too because they won't get upset when we are getting ready to go other places. I also like to see how my dogs compare to the other dogs of their breed out there, get judges opinions on my dogs, see how good my eye and make friends and contacts.



Nargle said:


> Do people bring their pets to shows? If so, do they have to pay entrance fees? I noticed a lot of the people with show dogs had dogs they weren't showing with them, and I wonder if there were some people in the audiences that just came to watch with their pet. Or would this be frowned on?


Sometimes they do. 

They only pay an entrance fee if they are entered in the show. If a pet is intact and registered they can be shown in conformation and you have to pay the fee. Same if they are in a performance event (of which some allow s/n dogs also). If they are not entered/registered then they don't have to pay but are not supposed to be there under the rules of most. 

For example 
With both ADBA and AKC you're not supposed to bring dogs that are not entered.

With UKC some shows specifically state that they are not allowed but at some events they are. It is up to the club holding the event in the end, though never pups under 8 weeks. 

I do think that in the event that people who are actually showing brought a dog or two along that they were not showing this could be overlooked. If they were kept crated most the time I don't see it as a big deal. It is different then someone bringing a pet dog and sitting on the side lines with it.



MissMutt said:


> I _don't_ want my question to start a debate or anything, but..
> 
> What makes people choose AKC over UKC? I know there are differences in terms of the "feel" of the events, with AKC being a bit more formal, but is that it? Are AKC trials more common, which would make people more inclined to choose to compete in AKC Conf? Are AKC Champions more exceptional than UKC ones, on average?


I've never had a huge interest in AKC. My dogs are not AKC registered therefore I can't show in AKC. My breeds are not AKC recognized for the most part, though the APBT was accepted and is under AST if your dog doesn't come from AKC then you can't register/show AKC. I don't have much a choice in it, though they are starting to accept more breeds though I'm not in a hurry to do FSS or obtain dogs from AKC parents to show there. I think how exceptional they are really depends on the breed. In certain breeds I don't like the way they are going and they are not changing for the good. You could find better dogs from breeders not showing AKC. In other breeds the dogs being put up are goods ones where in UKC or other there might not be much competition or not so great dogs with titles. So I think as far as that it's about knowing your breed and what is in their breed ring within different registries. I've seen some pretty "bad looking" dogs with titles in either AKC or UKC.



RaeganW said:


> Can a dog be registered and compete in both UKC and AKC? (For years I just assumed the United in the UKC meant United Kingdom!)
> 
> How hard is it to maintain a show dog when you aren't showing him for a few months? Assuming you haven't done anything to "ruin" the dog, like clipping instead of stripping a terrier coat? How easy is it to ruin a dog for show?
> 
> How do you get started? The idea of competing in conformation has just taken a hold of my mind (always been more a preformance kind of gal), and it seems like there's lots of information out there to get better, but not how to start. How do you pick your breed?


Yes they can. There are no rules in registries I see that if you have a dual or multi registered dogs you can only show in their registry and not the others your dog is registered with. There are plenty dual titled dogs out there.

Think up keep would depend on the breed. For mine it's not hard at all (the hardest would be CO with all that hair, short haired breeds is like nothing for me). I don't typically do anything for keeping them up. They live a normal everyday life any other time. Then before the show they get some minimal grooming most the time. Again I think on ruining it depends on breed. A Pit isn't so easy to ruin but if you did something like the dog got an injury, docked the tail, ect then you have some worries. A CO if you shaved their coat then that would fall into the category of you ruining the dog like you mentioned with the terrier coat. 

I got started when I was young as I always had a great interest in "all aspects" APBT and to do whatever I could do with them. From training, exercising, showing, ect. As for other breeds I've taken interest in it is a matter of simply the fact that I like those breeds and don't see any reason not to show or otherwise compete with another breed.


----------



## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Why do people have handlers? (Not that there's anything wrong with it, just curious.) I understand if the owner was not able to keep up with the proper pace, or are incapable of showing period, or having more than one showing at one time. But on the smaller and/or slower breeds (and no other complications), why have a handler? To my understanding, handlers are not all exactly cheap. The person I worked with is highly known in my area and highly reputable - I figured that's why she's sought for for handling their dogs. With that said, when I was younger I often worked at dog shows and I thought about getting into showing/handling but I never did because I was afraid of the judges, lol. I didn't want to be the only one in the ring who didn't hear/understand the judge - and then the judge getting impatient with me. Basically, I was afraid of "negative attention". A lot of the judges were nice and understanding but some seemed more stern, no nonsense tolerated.

Are there commonly used show lingo? Like I know Dog is male and Bitch is female. Isn't there a term for a spaded female dog? And so on... Any other terms?

Both fixed and unfixed females AND males are shown, right?

I hadn't been to a dog show in yyyyyears. I'm going to one tomorrow and I'm so excited!  Not working this one, just going to go. I'm taking one of my friends who has never been to a dog show. I'm sure she'll like it. She loves dogs as much as I do. I gotta find out how to know when and where dog shows will be held - that goes for any animal function. I didn't know about tomorrows show until my handler friend told me about it 2 days ago.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

prntmkr said:


> First, my apologies if this has already been answered, but YES, YES, YES - I have a question:
> 
> Perhaps this is _not_ the case but, recently, I’ve spoken with a half dozen breeders (of various breeds in various groups) about this. _*Every single one*_ has given me a diplomatic, but lame answer. And *every single one *has acknowledged this same scenario:
> 
> ...


People can't simply revolt. 

I would say that some people just whine because their dog doesn't place. Your dog isn't always going to place (even if they are good) different judges might interpret the standard differently or might notice something another didn't between a few dogs that are all very close to standard. 

I also think some people use it as an excuse when they don't have a high quality dog. 

On the other hand yes politics plays a role sometimes. I haven't had this issue much though. I've seen blatantly judges picking for politic reasons rather then the right reasons. Same judges at different shows. Last year I showed under same twice in a row, I didn't have a problem at either event, but at one show it was so, so wrong. Some of my friends were very upset because they got beat because of politics and not the their dogs merits. I didn't have much complaining since overall the politics didn't effect me.

I'd say for the most part though politics doesn't seem to be a huge issue and it can be overblown by people who just don't have good quality dogs using that as a reason not to show.



HyperFerret said:


> Why do people have handlers? (Not that there's anything wrong with it, just curious.) I understand if the owner was not able to keep up with the proper pace, or are incapable of showing period, or having more than one showing at one time. But on the smaller and/or slower breeds (and no other complications), why have a handler? To my understanding, handlers are not all exactly cheap. The person I worked with is highly known in my area and highly reputable - I figured that's why she's sought for for handling their dogs. With that said, when I was younger I often worked at dog shows and I thought about getting into showing/handling but I never did because I was afraid of the judges, lol. I didn't want to be the only one in the ring who didn't hear/understand the judge - and then the judge getting impatient with me. Basically, I was afraid of "negative attention". A lot of the judges were nice and understanding but some seemed more stern, no nonsense tolerated.
> 
> Are there commonly used show lingo? Like I know Dog is male and Bitch is female. Isn't there a term for a spaded female dog? And so on... Any other terms?
> 
> ...


The only reason I send mine with a handler is if I can't make a show but wish for my dog(s) to still compete. I actually hate it because I would much rather show my own dogs. I don't even like to give up leash control to my DH. 

Intact dogs are shown. S/n are not allowed to compete. 

Have fun at the show! You taking pics?



Kina_A said:


> Do all good breeders allow for co-ownership of their show quality female pups?
> 
> Or is this something that you discuss with the breeder you want to purchase your pup from? Can you decided on when you want to breed her or is it up to the breeder to decide?
> 
> What's the maximum age you can show your dog? Does it depend on the breed?


All depends on the breeder and contract. Everything should be discussed beforehand and anything in contract you need to make sure you understand and agree to. 

Most registries don't really have a maximum and for registries that register multi breeds the same age classes apply. Most the dogs are typically shown in classes by age (and sex too). While there isn't a max age there is usually a minimum age which can vary between registries. You can show a dog as old as you like basically. I've shown as young as 4 months and as old as 8yrs. I like to start them younger simply so they get the know how and socialization of a show. Some dogs I've acquired later or if I took time off showing they were unable to show during that time.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

HyperFerret said:


> Both fixed and unfixed females AND males are shown, right?


In AKC only Intact animals can show in conformation

in ASCA There is an intact class going for their CH and also an altered class going for their A-CH



Squeeker said:


> I have one!!
> 
> I'm from Canada, so this would appply to CKC, but...
> 
> ...


As long as your dog doesn't have any Disqualifying faults yes you can enter them and show them.

YOu don't HAVE to wear a skirt, blouse, and blazer. I wear Tan kakies and a blue or black corduroy jacket. with a nice shirt underneath and a neacklace. It's frowned upon at AKC shows to not dress up. 

In ASCA some show premiums actually say "NO Formal attire at this show!" so Dressing up isn't quite as important.



HyperFerret said:


> Are there commonly used show lingo? Like I know Dog is male and Bitch is female. Isn't there a term for a spaded female dog? And so on... Any other terms?
> 
> Both fixed and unfixed females AND males are shown, right?



There is no special name for altered dogs or bitches. Special names for intact animals are Stud dog and Brood Bitch.


----------



## craven.44 (Sep 10, 2008)

I am just getting really interested in the purebred world and I have bajillions of questions. Unfortunately, I can't think of a single specific question at the moment. I am going to a dachshund show (my breed of choice) on Sunday, so I will have to write down the questions I think of so I can ask all of you guys. For now, I am going to be vague and ask for a quick rundown of what happens in the ring. I have been reading and such, but I am still pretty lost. Like what Keechak said about pointing to the dogs. What is that about? The last show I went to I watched the goldens go around the ring like five times with different dogs stepping in and out each time. I was very confused. Thank you! This thread has been very informative.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

The judge likes those dogs and wants to see more of them. It is a good thing if it is your dog. They might want to watch them gait again, check them out, compare them to other top dogs in the ring.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

craven.44 said:


> I am just getting really interested in the purebred world and I have bajillions of questions. Unfortunately, I can't think of a single specific question at the moment. I am going to a dachshund show (my breed of choice) on Sunday, so I will have to write down the questions I think of so I can ask all of you guys. For now, I am going to be vague and ask for a quick rundown of what happens in the ring. I have been reading and such, but I am still pretty lost. Like what Keechak said about pointing to the dogs. What is that about? The last show I went to I watched the goldens go around the ring like five times with different dogs stepping in and out each time. I was very confused. Thank you! This thread has been very informative.


First off I will only explain AKC other Org. might do it differently


There are classes for each breed

Puppy Dog 6-9 months
Puppy Dog 9-12 months
Puppy Dog 12-18 months 
Bred by Dog
American Bred Dog
Novice Dog
Open Class Dog

Puppy Bitch 6-9 months
Puppy Bitch 9-12 months
Puppy Bitch 12-18 months 
Bred by Bitch
American Bred Bitch
Novice Bitch
Open Class Bitch

In each class the judge points to the 1st place

Then after all the classes for Dogs are done each 1st place comes in and the judge picks "Winners Dog" out of them

The same is done for Bitches to get "Winners Bitch"

The "Winners Dog" and "Winners Bitch" both come back into the ring and all of the Finished Champions go in with them. The Judge then picks "Best of Breed"


----------



## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Intact dogs are shown. S/n are not allowed to compete.
> 
> Have fun at the show! You taking pics?


Hmmm .... I could have sworn I heard a call for spaded females last time I was at a dog show. ...Or at _least_ a call for "altered" females (or _dogs_, can't remember). But I know it wasn't a breed where any cropping or docking was done so I assumed "altered" meant s/n. Oh well, been too long ago - silly memory of mine. 

Why are n/s not allowed to compete? Is it because part of showing is to show that indeed you do have the "top dog". --Not sure if that sounded right. Nothing negative intended. Still kinda sucks to know I wouldn't be able to show a dog just because I decided to have them s/n. Means I'd never be able to show - _just to show_. (Not that I have a purebred, lol.)

How about pregnant/nursing/recently nursed - are they ever shown?

Didn't think about taking pics being that I don't think I'll know any of the dogs. My handler friend (who will have her own dogs there also) might have a couple I might know. I'll take my camera just in case. I'll only be going for first day of the 2 day event. Even at that, tomorrow I won't be there for the whole day. I'll only be there from 11:30am - end and then the 2nd day I have to go to work. So I'll be missing out on a lot.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well, Dogs always show before bitches.

In a regular show you have:

6-9 Puppy Dog/Bitch
9-12 Puppy Dog/Bitch
12-18 Puppy Dog/Bitch
Amateur Owner Handler (this has replaced Novice, and ONLY non pros can show here)
Bred By Dog/bitch
American Bred Dog/Bitch
Open Dog/Bitch
Specials (Finished champions only competing for BOB, not points)

First all of the dogs are shown. When the judge points to a dog or gestures 1,2,3,4 those are the placements.

The first dog of every class will then go back in for Winners. To make it easy, we'll just talk about the boys.

So the first place winner of every class, from 6-9 puppy all the way to the Open Dog (remember, Specials don't compete for points), will return into the ring for Winners Dog.

The judge will then point to a dog, and that dog becomes Winners Dog (often abbreviated WD). If the judge picks, for example, the Open dog for Winners, the SECOND PLACE winner of Open enters the ring to try for Reserve. When the judge points again, that dog is Reserve Winners Dog (RWD).

You ALWAYS want to stay for reserve. The point of Reserve is that in the event of an error of entry (wrong dog's name, registration requirements weren't met, etc), the Reserve dog gets the points the other dog would have one.

After Winners Dog and Winners bitch are chosen, the specials enter the ring. They are individually examined.

At that point, the judge will pick Best of Winners (between the WD and WB) and then award BOB (Best of Breed) and BOS (Best of Opposite Sex) accordingly.

A class dog (any dog that is NOT a special) CAN win Best of Breed or Best of Ops...it is at the judge's discretion. When a class dog is put up for breed over champions, it is called being "Put up over specials."

A dog must be intact to show because the point of conformation is to evaluate breeding stock.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

HyperFerret said:


> Hmmm .... I could have sworn I heard a call for spaded females last time I was at a dog show. ...Or at _least_ a call for "altered" females (or _dogs_, can't remember). But I know it wasn't a breed where any cropping or docking was done so I assumed "altered" meant s/n. Oh well, been too long ago - silly memory of mine.
> 
> Why are n/s not allowed to compete? Is it because part of showing is to show that indeed you do have the "top dog". --Not sure if that sounded right. Nothing negative intended. Still kinda sucks to know I wouldn't be able to show a dog just because I decided to have them s/n. Means I'd never be able to show - _just to show_. (Not that I have a purebred, lol.)
> 
> ...


Some organizations allow Altered dogs and bitches to compete, AKC does not.

Conformation started as a way to Judge Breeding stock.

A Pregnant Bitch can show However I would not show a nursing or recently weened bitch simply because they look horrible lol. Besides a nursing Bitch should really be with her puppies


EDIT
(Reads above post) Xeph knows more than me lol


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Xeph said:


> A dog must be intact to show because the point of conformation is to evaluate breeding stock.


Isn't there a rule like finished champions >7 yrs old that are altered can be shown in Veterans, if there is a Veteran's class at the show (I think this usually just applies to Specialties or Supported Entries)...?




Also in case anyone need a definition of each AKC class:


justfurkids.com said:


> 6-9 month - [puppies in this age group]
> 
> 9-12 month - [puppies in this age group]
> 
> ...


(with [] additions by me)


----------



## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Bred By Dog/bitch
> American Bred Dog/Bitch
> Open Dog/Bitch


Is the difference between BBD and ABD simply which breeds were originated in America?

What is Open Dog?

*EDIT:* I now see *Shaina's* quote.



Xeph said:


> A dog must be intact to show because the point of conformation is to evaluate breeding stock.





Keechak said:


> Conformation started as a way to Judge Breeding stock.


I was thinking that was probably why. 



Keechak said:


> Besides a nursing Bitch should really be with her puppies


I thought the same, I just listed nursing Bitch to be thorough.

This thread is awesome and a great idea! I just hope I don't ask a really stupid question.  lol


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

HyperFerret said:


> Why are n/s not allowed to compete? Is it because part of showing is to show that indeed you do have the "top dog". --Not sure if that sounded right. Nothing negative intended. Still kinda sucks to know I wouldn't be able to show a dog just because I decided to have them s/n. Means I'd never be able to show - _just to show_. (Not that I have a purebred, lol.)


Chances are you wouldn't alter your dog before 6 months of age anyway (assuming the puppy in question was a potentially show quality purebred), so you could certainly at least enter puppy "fun" matches and/or the 6-9 month puppy class to see if it's something you want to pursue before making the decision to alter or not.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> I have never had any trouble winning if I have a good dog, pro handlers or not. I show Rotties, and there are a LOT of professional handlers.
> 
> If you have a good dog, which is in good condition, and you can present it reasonably well, you will do your share of winning, pros or not.
> 
> That is my personal experience anyway. My opinion? Those that do all the whining about politics and pro handlers need better dogs.


That's been my experience and opinion as well.



Squeeker said:


> I have one!!
> 
> I'm from Canada, so this would appply to CKC, but...
> 
> ...


Asssuming your dog is registered, unaltered, and doesn't have a disqualifying fault then you most certainly can enter and show your dog. You don't need to be a registered handler. I don't know anyone who would laugh someone out of a ring, but depeing on the breed competion and your skill level you may be a bit uncomfortable if you've never handled or taken classes before. From what I've seen if there's an obvious novice in the ring the judge doesn't hold that against them, since they are supposed to be judging the dogs not the people, and most breeders will step up afterwards and offer some guidance to the newcomer. If you do have handling classes in your area then I would highly recomend you attened, they're great fun and you don't have to worry about being primp and proper all the time like you would for a show. However not everyone has the luxury of having handling classes nearby so they have to learn as they go.

I don't belive AKC has a formal dress code for showing in conformation, hopefully someone can verify this, and I'm not sure on the CKC. But I've seen people in wearing all sorts of outfits in the ring, from a full suit with cumberbun to jeans and a tee shirt. Of course if you're a boy you wouldn't be forced to wear a blouse and a skirt. Whatever outfit you do choose to wear you need to make sure it's comfortable and functional. No sense showing a GSD in a ball gown if you're just going to trip over yourself when you run. You also want an outfit that isn't too distracting or blends in with your dog. Don't wear black if you have a black dog!



HyperFerret said:


> Why do people have handlers? ... But on the smaller and/or slower breeds (and no other complications), why have a handler? To my understanding, handlers are not all exactly cheap. ... Basically, I was afraid of "negative attention". A lot of the judges were nice and understanding but some seemed more stern, no nonsense tolerated.
> 
> Are there commonly used show lingo? Like I know Dog is male and Bitch is female. Isn't there a term for a spaded female dog? And so on... Any other terms?
> 
> Both fixed and unfixed females AND males are shown, right?


-There's loads of reasons why people may choose to use a handler over doing it themselves. Some people just don't have the skill, confidence, or time to do it themselves. Other people aren't physicaly capable of doing it; even the small "easy" breeds need to be picked up off the ground and placed on a table and some people just can't do that. Sometimes the dogs just don't respond well to their owners handling them and do better with a handler. Alot of times people will use handlers when they need to get that last major, either because they can't travel to the larger shows or they aren't skilled enough to present thier dog in a larger competion. 

-I belive the AKC has a flyer with defintions for all the show lingo and they may also have it in the complete dog book that has all the approved standards. 

-Only intact dogs can show in AKC conformation. However many individual breed clubs offer conformation classes for fixed dogs. Any dog fixed or intact can compete in their applicable field and companion competions(i.e. herding, obedience, etc.) Fixed dogs may also compete as verterans at specialties and in the stud dog or brood bitch classes, but you don't often see those classes offered or used unless you're at a specialty anyways.


----------



## spugs (May 4, 2009)

Ive very recently got a show quality papillon bitch with the intention fo having a go at showing. Her breeder sold her to me with a breeding endorsement that will be lifted once shes over 18 months and has had all the necessery health checks.
I dont think that in the UK theres many co ownerships but im not sure.

Any top tips for the novice?


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

spugs said:


> Ive very recently got a show quality papillon bitch with the intention fo having a go at showing. Her breeder sold her to me with a breeding endorsement that will be lifted once shes over 18 months and has had all the necessery health checks.
> I dont think that in the UK theres many co ownerships but im not sure.
> 
> Any top tips for the novice?


The show system in the UK is quite different from the american or canadian show systems. I pm'ed you with the website of a UK based show forum to get you started. In the UK the classes are run quite similar to the AKC, except the Ch's compete with all the non-champions to earn CC's(champion certificates). For a dog to get it's UK show CH it must earn 3 CC's, which is quite difficut considering some breeds don't even have CC's on offer. Dogs must also be over a year old to earn a CC and only a limited amount of shows offer CC's. They have 4 levels of shows; champ shows, open shows, and 2 more which I can't remember. Champ shows are the only ones where you can earn a CC. UK shows also have ALOT more competion then american shows; For example with Afghans 20 is a large entry in a Californian show, but in the UK 60 is a normal entry of Afghans.


----------



## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

I've never understood why somebody would show an altered dog. What are you working for if you can't produce puppies that are the epitome of their breed?

I'm also fuzzy on the co-ownership thing. It varies from breeder to breeder, I know. I want to show in the future in addition to obedience, agility, etc. Way, way in the future I'd like to be the best breeder I can be. What do I have to do to have all the breeding rights? I don't understand the big complicated names/kennel names. When can I have the name that *I* want?


----------



## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

I just entered my neutered male in conformation...

He is 11 1/2 years old, a Champion, and he had to be neutered because a benign tumor caused one of his testicles to shrink. One of the big Disqualifying faults is if testicles are not apparently normal and descended into the scrotum. With one shrunk away to almost nothing, he had to be neutered (I have frozen semen, so it didn't hurt my future plans for him).

In AKC, he can show in special Veterans classes, if they are offered, or in Sweepstakes (which is where I entered him), or at specific types of shows where he cannot go any further than Best of Breed Competition, like at a breed-specific Specialty.

Neutered/spayed dogs cannot show in any class/show where they could potentially end up in the group ring. 

As I said, Sweepster is 11 1/2 and he loves to show. He is in great shape--has several National Specialty placements--and he deserves to get out and strut his stuff when he can! 

As for using a handler, I have used one in the past few years because I have had some orthopedic issues that make it impossible for me to run with my dog(s). I ruptured a ligament in my ankle and have recently had it repaired. Hopefully, a year from now, I'll be back showing my own dogs.

I do not send my dogs on the road with a handler--they are always with me. I groom them and bring them to the show and turn them over to the handler right before judging. This is called "ringside pick-up."


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Is the difference between BBD and ABD simply which breeds were originated in America?


No.

Bred By Exhibitor is just that....only the person(s) that bred the dog may show it in that class. Now, if there are three people listed as "breeder" on that dog, any of those three may exhibit the dog in that class, but no one else.

If that dog wins the class however, and the owner breeder of that dog wants to take a different dog back in after Bred By, another person may take the Bred By dog back in for Winners.

Open is generally for the more mature dogs that are not yet finished. They are generally more filled out and "looking their age"

American Bred is for "tweener" dogs. Dogs that are not puppies, but they lack the physical maturity to compete with the Open dogs.

Sometimes you'll see a 12-18 dog that is showing in AmBred because he looks too mature for his age group, but not mature enough due to his actual age.

I have a friend with a (now finished) Doberman that had to show her 18 month old Puppy in Open, because he matured so quickly (He looks even better now as a special ). He looked HUGE in his puppy classes, and was too mature for AmBred, so into Open he went.

I showed Delphi in AmBred for a couple shows due to her weight and overall lack of fill. She'll be entered in Open again in the next couple of months, now that she's looking better.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

HyperFerret said:


> Hmmm .... I could have sworn I heard a call for spaded females last time I was at a dog show. ...Or at _least_ a call for "altered" females (or _dogs_, can't remember). But I know it wasn't a breed where any cropping or docking was done so I assumed "altered" meant s/n. Oh well, been too long ago - silly memory of mine.
> 
> Why are n/s not allowed to compete? Is it because part of showing is to show that indeed you do have the "top dog". --Not sure if that sounded right. Nothing negative intended. Still kinda sucks to know I wouldn't be able to show a dog just because I decided to have them s/n. Means I'd never be able to show - _just to show_. (Not that I have a purebred, lol.)
> 
> ...


Well I forget at some shows they do have classes for altered dogs, it is different then intact dogs. Some registries you can earn a CH title or equivalent and in other you can't.


----------



## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

I need to go back and read some of the posts that I missed.

My roommate's new cavalier comes home this sunday. It turns out that her last owners couldn't keep her because of where they were living so she's completely free. However, she's also spayed but has papers. I'd like to hop into the show ring with her as my 'practice' dog. Is it going to be harder to find shows that an altered dog can be in? What I mean is, are they fewer and further between?

She has papers but do we have to do anything so that I can show her? Like register her under our names or something? Forgive me if this all sounds rather dim. I assume I'll have to go onto the AKC website to find the shows she can enter, yes?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

She won't be able to enter AKC conformation at all, at least not until she's a veteran.

You can show her in obedience, agility, and rally though.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I know it's "bad form" for breeders to be breeding more than one breed of dog. What's the etiquette or generally accepted practice towards showing more than one breed of dog? I doubt there's any rulebook rule on the matter, but it is frowned upon?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Handlers show more than one breed of dog usually. It's how they make a living.

I myself handle Shepherds, English Cocker Spaniels, Vizslak, and many other breeds.

There are many people that breed and exhibit two breeds (usually they're similar), it's just easier only doing one.

I myself may be breeding more than one breed of dog (two total), but I spend time reading and researching and learning. Shepherds will always be my first love.


----------



## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> I know it's "bad form" for breeders to be breeding more than one breed of dog. What's the etiquette or generally accepted practice towards showing more than one breed of dog? I doubt there's any rulebook rule on the matter, but it is frowned upon?


It's only "bad form" because a some people say so.

I know reputable breeders who raise, breed, show and train 4 breeds. I am friends with people who show and breed more than one breed.

Personally, I'm dabbling in more than one breed - I don't like being tied down to just one breed.


----------



## semper83 (May 6, 2009)

Are you allowed to show a bitch in heat? I've always wondered this but I have yet to make it to a dog show. I know the dogs there are well trained/behaved but I would think a female in heat would be a big distraction.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yes, you can show a bitch in season, but ONLY in conformation!

You cannot show a bitch in season in any other AKC event.


----------



## craven.44 (Sep 10, 2008)

Who gets points toward their CH? Winners Dog and Winners Bitch or just BOB? Or is it something else entirely?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Winners Dog and Winners bitch get points towards their championship.

There are also these delightfully confusing things called crossover points. For example, if there is a major on the dog side, but not the bitch side, if Winners Bitch goes over the dog for Best of Winners, she gets the major.

You can also get a major win if you go Group 1 in your group, and there was a major in any of the breeds that also showed in group (So if there was NO major in GSDs, but there was a Major in Collies, and you went G1, you'd get a major).

If a dog is a special and goes Best of Breed, it gains no championship points, only points for ranking


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> I know it's "bad form" for breeders to be breeding more than one breed of dog. What's the etiquette or generally accepted practice towards showing more than one breed of dog? I doubt there's any rulebook rule on the matter, but it is frowned upon?


I think it is fine for a breeder to breed more then one breed. As long as they know what they are doing with each breed. Several breeders breed and exhibit 2 breeds. 

It is certainly not bad at all to show more then one.


----------



## KYASHI (Apr 12, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I _don't_ want my question to start a debate or anything, but..
> 
> What makes people choose AKC over UKC? I know there are differences in terms of the "feel" of the events, with AKC being a bit more formal, but is that it? Are AKC trials more common, which would make people more inclined to choose to compete in AKC Conf? Are AKC Champions more exceptional than UKC ones, on average?



I have shown AKC for over 35 years. UKC now for going on 7 years. I myself prefer the UKC shows. They are more down to earth and the people are kinder to everyone. At UKC shows professional handlers are not allowed. It is owners/breeders who do their own showing. This takes out the attitude that so engulfs an AKC event. There are more AKC shows available for people to attend then UKC, but give us time and you will see just as much offered UKC. I would suggest that you go to a show of both venues and see which one you feel more comfortable at and which one you also had more fun at. I would bet it will be UKC.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

semper83 said:


> Are you allowed to show a bitch in heat? I've always wondered this but I have yet to make it to a dog show. I know the dogs there are well trained/behaved but I would think a female in heat would be a big distraction.


It depends on the registry. Some you are not allowed to show a bitch in heat (some you can't have them on the show grounds at all), others you can show but not compete in performance events. Rules vary from kennel club to kennel club.


----------



## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

KYASHI said:


> I have shown AKC for over 35 years. UKC now for going on 7 years. I myself prefer the UKC shows. They are more down to earth and the people are kinder to everyone. At UKC shows professional handlers are not allowed. It is owners/breeders who do their own showing. This takes out the attitude that so engulfs an AKC event. There are more AKC shows available for people to attend then UKC, but give us time and you will see just as much offered UKC. I would suggest that you go to a show of both venues and see which one you feel more comfortable at and which one you also had more fun at. I would bet it will be UKC.


How does one get into both the AKC and UKC? Does the pup have to be born into it? Or can you register and AKC dog with the UKC?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You can register any dog with any organization as long as the dog has a pedigree behind it (note that registration is not indicative of quality).


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

boy, I needed this thread Friday before my husband left for Harrisburg with my daughter and the puppy!!

Poor hubby, he has only been to a small handful of shows and then it was only to come watch our daughter then leave.
He is stuck in PA with 3 days of dog shows!! 
LOL.. he is being a good sport about it, but he said he watched so many dogs being shown today and he has no idea what happened!!


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Tofu_pup said:


> How does one get into both the AKC and UKC? Does the pup have to be born into it? Or can you register and AKC dog with the UKC?


It depends. 

UKC accepts dogs for register from approved registries with pedigree. I can UKC reg. an AKC dog. But if I've a dog that comes from UKC pedigree and parents I can't simply register them with AKC.

AKC is a little more strict, the dog must come from AKC parents/pedigree, though there are some exceptions to this. Like dogs from other countries, they'd be registered with the registry from that country, they could be imported and registered AKC. There are other instances too, this is just one example.


----------



## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Tofu_pup said:


> How does one get into both the AKC and UKC? Does the pup have to be born into it? Or can you register and AKC dog with the UKC?


Smudge's AKC papers can get him UKC and CKC registered. FCI registries all work together so you can purchase an out of country pup and get it your countries registering body's papers as long as it's the approved registry of the country. 

There are other registries too that have shows.. the rare breed club here has a handful of shows a year. All of those dogs are registered with their parent clubs, btu they aren't CKC (as I'm Canadian) recognized breeds.


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

I bought my daughter a book by George Alston, it's called The Winning Edge. I found it on amazon. It is a great book for someone starting out. I have enjoyed reading it.
I was kind of born into the dog show world. My Great Aunt had Labs so i was used to spending time at the shows with her. I joined a 4-H Dog club with our dog and it took off from there. 
I like the obed. over breed ring. I am just starting out in Rally too. My daughter is enjoying the Jr's and breed better!!


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

kacaju said:


> I like the obed. over breed ring. I am just starting out in Rally too. My daughter is enjoying the Jr's and breed better!!


One of the great things about the conformation ring, IMO, is that you are introducing your dog early to the competition ring environment...but you are free to treat away and bring in a little toy (I think). Talk about setting yourself up well for the future performance ring...already having established the ring as a good thing!


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Shaina said:


> One of the great things about the conformation ring, IMO, is that you are introducing your dog early to the competition ring environment...but you are free to treat away and bring in a little toy (I think). Talk about setting yourself up well for the future performance ring...already having established the ring as a good thing!


There is a little room for stinkerness too. I think I may have invented that word so don't bother trying to look it up in the dictionary. ha ha

I think there are some dogs that walk into a ring saying "give me the prize, I deserve it" and that in combination with a well put together dog will take it every time. Some dogs seem to enjoy being "showed off" and others are not as into it.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Shaina said:


> One of the great things about the conformation ring, IMO, is that you are introducing your dog early to the competition ring environment...but you are free to treat away and bring in a little toy (I think). Talk about setting yourself up well for the future performance ring...already having established the ring as a good thing!


You are so right, and I have always used this to my advantage. Every dog I have ever shown in the Breed ring has been obedience trained from the start, as well as trained for the conformation ring. I have never seen the two as mutually exclusive. I just spend as much time teaching my dog to stand and gait leading out as I do on teaching her to sit at heel and in front. 

Sharp performance in both rings is dependent on attention. And believe it or not, there is a lot more training that goes into a good show dog than many people might think. If you don't think so, go out and try to teach your dog to stack himself all by himself, without you touching him. Almost all show dogs do this VERY WELL. It takes some time to teach it.


----------



## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

I have lots of questions! lol ive always wanted to ask a bunch of these..

1. when the judge goes over/feels each dog, is it ok for the dog to like wag its tail or appear happy to be being petted? Ive noticed many of the dogs stand very very still, is this something that is trained? 

2. Stacking. do dogs learn how to do that on their own? or are you allowed to move their feet around/help them out? 

3. ..what if a dog, goes potty? lol i know this may seem like an odd question, but what if you dog goes? is that like an automatic disqualification?

4. In breeds that can be shown cropped/uncropped or docked/not docked, which do you think wins more often? 

5. The pictures. you know the one with the dog, and the little sign, and the ribbon? how much are those pictures? can you take them yourself? 

6. Do you meet a lot of people @ shows, like prospective breed owners, curious people etc.? do you enjoy talking to people about ur breed? 

7. does everyone get something? i know winners get like those huge ribbons, but do they give out little like "good try" ribbons so nobody goes home with nothing? 

8. If you had a great confirmation puppy, but it doesn't LIKE to show, what do you do? 

how do you choose show pups/pet pups other than confirmation? is there an attitude/personality? 



thanks!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I have lots of questions! lol ive always wanted to ask a bunch of these..
> 
> 1. when the judge goes over/feels each dog, is it ok for the dog to like wag its tail or appear happy to be being petted? Ive noticed many of the dogs stand very very still, is this something that is trained?


No, it's fine for the dogs to move and be friendly especially in certain breeds. Paps are naturally ridiculously outgoing and friendly. I know Beau liked to give the judges kisses when he was in the ring. 



> 2. Stacking. do dogs learn how to do that on their own? or are you allowed to move their feet around/help them out?


You train it. You can help your dogs most times. A stack where you don't help the dog is a free stack. Imo it looks a lot more professional to have a dog that automatically freestacks when stopped in the ring. It always awed me to see my goofbutt Beau look so professional out there.



> 3. ..what if a dog, goes potty? lol i know this may seem like an odd question, but what if you dog goes? is that like an automatic disqualification?


That happens ALL the time (thankfully it hasn't been my dog yet). The handler generally gets a laugh and someone comes to clean it up. No big deal unless you have a coated breed and they mess all over your grooming job. 



> 4. In breeds that can be shown cropped/uncropped or docked/not docked, which do you think wins more often?


Whatever is most popular and most seen wins at least in what I see. I have rarely seen a naturally eared dog win in a breed that is traditionally cropped. Mostly this is because most dogs are cropped but it's also what the judges are used to. I'm glad my breed isnt' altered.



> 5. The pictures. you know the one with the dog, and the little sign, and the ribbon? how much are those pictures? can you take them yourself?


There are photographers at each show. You'll see them racing between rings to try to get the pictures. I cannot for the life of me remember how much we paid for those though. They weren't too much.



> 6. Do you meet a lot of people @ shows, like prospective breed owners, curious people etc.? do you enjoy talking to people about ur breed?


We didn't really probably mostly because we're noobs. I obviously love talking about paps though.



> 7. does everyone get something? i know winners get like those huge ribbons, but do they give out little like "good try" ribbons so nobody goes home with nothing?


Nope. You get different levels of ribbons if you place and it also depends on the show. The only big ribbons we got were from the breed specialty. The rest are dinky little ones.



> 8. If you had a great confirmation puppy, but it doesn't LIKE to show, what do you do?


Imo you don't show. A dog that doesn't like it can't show well. This is actually what happened with Rose. She's show quality but she hated it and thus never placed despite how good she was. She would shake and tremble and sulk around the ring. It's not worth it to put your dog in a situation they hate just to win. And you don't want that type of temperament in a future generation of show dogs anyways. The dogs that win are often the Beaus in the ring- the ones that go in screaming 'Look at me!' Beau thought showing was the best thing ever and he thought the whole thing revolved around him. Those catchy personalities are the ones that'll do well.



> how do you choose show pups/pet pups other than confirmation? is there an attitude/personality?


See above. You want a correct temperament for your breed.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> 1. when the judge goes over/feels each dog, is it ok for the dog to like wag its tail or appear happy to be being petted? Ive noticed many of the dogs stand very very still, is this something that is trained?


It is perfectly acceptable for the dog to wag it's tail  Many dogs are just so focused on their handler/the bait, or just so used to the procedure, they ignore it, so it is in part due to training



> 2. Stacking. do dogs learn how to do that on their own? or are you allowed to move their feet around/help them out?


Yes and yes. When the dog stacks on its own, it is called free stacking. A dog that is set by hand is hand stacked.

Free stacking is typically down on the down and back, and at times judges will ask dogs to come out to the center of the ring and free stack. Hand stacking is done for the initial examination of the judge, and at the end when the judge is going to make his/her pick.



> 3. ..what if a dog, goes potty? lol i know this may seem like an odd question, but what if you dog goes? is that like an automatic disqualification?


It's an embarrassment, it gets cleaned up, and judging goes on. A dog that potties in the ring can still be placed.



> 4. In breeds that can be shown cropped/uncropped or docked/not docked, which do you think wins more often?


Cropped. That is generally what is preferred in the standard and/or by the judge (largely because it's what we're used to).

That said, if an unaltered dog is nicer than a cropped/docked one, it should be put up (sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't).



> 5. The pictures. you know the one with the dog, and the little sign, and the ribbon? how much are those pictures? can you take them yourself?


Those pictures are taken by professional photographers. The price varies from photog to photog.



> 6. Do you meet a lot of people @ shows, like prospective breed owners, curious people etc.? do you enjoy talking to people about ur breed?


I do on both counts. Many people stop while I've got a dog up on the table and start chatting with me, and I enjoy it 



> 7. does everyone get something? i know winners get like those huge ribbons, but do they give out little like "good try" ribbons so nobody goes home with nothing?


No, nobody gets "good try" ribbons. You either win, or you don't. Heck, after awhile you don't even keep the class ribbons, lol



> 8. If you had a great confirmation puppy, but it doesn't LIKE to show, what do you do?


Find something the dog DOES enjoy.



> how do you choose show pups/pet pups other than confirmation? is there an attitude/personality?


Yes, attitude and personality also come into play when choosing.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

LilMissSunshine said:


> I have lots of questions! lol ive always wanted to ask a bunch of these..
> 
> 1. when the judge goes over/feels each dog, is it ok for the dog to like wag its tail or appear happy to be being petted? Ive noticed many of the dogs stand very very still, is this something that is trained?
> 
> ...



1. Yes most dogs are trained to stand still, if a do0g even so much as turn his head around to look at the judge it can throw off the straightness of the back and the feel of the loin. But a tail wag is allowed.

2. Yes you are allowed to place your dogs feet within a reasonable amount of time. the quicker you can do it the better. But a dog that know how to stack himself is of great value.

3. Pottying will not get the dog disqualified although most judges don't like it, others consider it a good thing that the dog feels comfortable enough in the ring to do that *shruges*

4. In breeds like the American Staffordshire terrier the standard says that an uncropped dog should be chosen over a cropped dog. I have never personally seen an uncropped dog in the ring.

5. Some photographers will let you use their stand yourself most will not. a picture usually costs about $15

6. I LOVE talking to people who want to learn more about my breed. I have not made any friends at shows tho.

7. only the Placers and winners get ribbons.

8. Show it in performance sports


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

LilMissSunshine said:


> 1. when the judge goes over/feels each dog, is it ok for the dog to like wag its tail or appear happy to be being petted? Ive noticed many of the dogs stand very very still, is this something that is trained?


-It depends on the dog and what type of temperment is expected for the breed. In Cavaliers their tails are going 24/7, whereas with sighthounds they are more aloof and not openly excited about strangers. Regardless of the breed any show dog expecting to win should be accepting of strangers examining them.



LilMissSunshine said:


> 2. Stacking. do dogs learn how to do that on their own? or are you allowed to move their feet around/help them out?


-In some breeds it's expected for dogs to "free stack", meaning they stack on their own without having to have their feet place. Typicaly the small toy dogs are free stacking breeds. Other breeds it's expected to "hand stack" them, but it's always nice when you have a dog that knows where it's feet goes. Every breed is hand stacked right before the judge does thier individual examination and free stacked when they return from their down and back. There are tools out there to help you train your dog to free stack, or there's various meathods of training them to stack just right.



LilMissSunshine said:


> 3. ..what if a dog, goes potty? lol i know this may seem like an odd question, but what if you dog goes? is that like an automatic disqualification?


S**t happens, sometimes you just have to deal with it. Of course everyone at ringside has a little giggle while the handler turns red from embarasement, but there is no disqualification or points knocked off because of it. I've seen it happen to quite a few handlers at outdoor shows. The judges never seemed to mind voulenteering to hold a dog while the handler cleans up the mess 



LilMissSunshine said:


> 4. In breeds that can be shown cropped/uncropped or docked/not docked, which do you think wins more often?


-In the AKC breeds that are tradintionaly cropped or docked, the cropped or docked dog will win more often. That's not to say a natural dog can't win, it just doesn't happen as often. However there isn't alot of natural dogs being shown with the cropped or docked breeds.



LilMissSunshine said:


> 6. Do you meet a lot of people @ shows, like prospective breed owners, curious people etc.? do you enjoy talking to people about ur breed?


-There's always loads of interesting new people to meet at shows. I've met everyone from breeders, owners, and buyers to people who were just driving by and want to see what all the comotion was about. I don't think anyone would own a breed of dog that they didn't enjoy talking about.



LilMissSunshine said:


> 7. does everyone get something? i know winners get like those huge ribbons, but do they give out little like "good try" ribbons so nobody goes home with nothing?


-No, there's lots of people who go home with "nothing". Though I always try to learn something about the competion or the judge, win or lose, so that way I can go home with some more knowlegde to put to good use. They do have Award of Merit for special events like the national or breed specialties. But most shows only have one big winner and a happy owner for each breed.



LilMissSunshine said:


> 8. If you had a great confirmation puppy, but it doesn't LIKE to show, what do you do?


-Give it some time to hopefully build up confidence and start liking shows. Part of a good show dog is their adituted toward the sport. You could have a conformationaly perfect dog, but it's never going to win over the less correct dogs if it walk with it's head down and it's tail between it's legs. Not all dogs are cut out for showing. I would try the dog at field work, but if it didn't like showing AND didn't want to do the work it was intended for, then I would place it in a pet home where it could be doing something it did like.



LilMissSunshine said:


> how do you choose show pups/pet pups other than confirmation? is there an attitude/personality?


-A good show dog will have that "pick me" additude. There's alot of personality and X-factor that great show dogs need, beyond just being conformationaly correct.


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

A dog that potties in the obed. ring is disquailified. I think in Rally to? I am not sure, I am just starting out in Rally.

I love meeting people at shows. That is half the fun of going... meeting up with friends.
Just as with any type of gathering. You have people who are friendly and will talk to anyone. you have others that only seem to want to talk to their circle of friends and others who don't want to talk to anyone!!

The best time to talk to someone at a show is after they are finished showing. This is how we met our breeder. We were walking around looking at the dogs and our breeder and her friend were standing next to an ex pen with 4 smooths, one of each color.

We started talking, she and her friend took the time to answer all of our questions. We must have spent a good 1/2 hour to 45 minutes with them. Jett was one of the dogs in the pen. We had no idea at the time she was looking to place him. I came home and continued my research and everything kept going back to her and her dogs. Funny thing is we both liked Jett a lot when we first met him, not having any idea that she would look into placing him in a Jr's home after he finished. So when she emailed me and offered him to us we jumped on it.


----------



## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Pottying in any other ring in a DQ.. Ob, agility, rally, even CGC testing.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The only DQ's in showing are dogs that are DQd as per their standard (some sort of disqualifying fault), a male lacking two normal testicles, and biting the judge


----------



## craven.44 (Sep 10, 2008)

This question might be a bit weird, but, hey, I'm curious. Obviously you would want to breed a champion bitch (or a bitch on her way to a championship), and I assume you may want to continue showing her after she has had puppies. I know that in rescue we see dogs that have had litters and they get a bit saggy. Are their ways to get show dogs back into shape after puppies? Like, the teats and everything. Or would a brood bitch in the ring not be penalized for a bit of loss of shape?


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

craven.44 said:


> This question might be a bit weird, but, hey, I'm curious. Obviously you would want to breed a champion bitch (or a bitch on her way to a championship), and I assume you may want to continue showing her after she has had puppies. I know that in rescue we see dogs that have had litters and they get a bit saggy. Are their ways to get show dogs back into shape after puppies? Like, the teats and everything. Or would a brood bitch in the ring not be penalized for a bit of loss of shape?


I noticed this exact same thing when Sasha (boyfriend's sister's aussie) had puppies. It's been probably 8 months since they were weaned and she's still got "flaps..."


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Breeders do what is called "Drying up" the bitch. In the course of weaning the puppies, mom is weaned herself, but goes back on a very strict diet.

On top of this, she goes back into a regular exercise regimen (jogging, running hills, etc etc). The exercise combined with safe but quick "drying up" of the milk prevents permanent sagging.

Now, if a bitch has had a LOT of litters, or carried LARGE litters, there is likely to be some residual sag, but there generally isn't enough to penalize her.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Not a question so much as a comment, but I've seen a couple references to an excersize regime for the dogs. Which, obviously, makes sense, but was just something I'd never thought about. I'm really enjoying this thread! It's done a lot to reform my opinion of conformation.


----------



## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

I might be odd, but I keep all of my ribbons, even the class ones. I paid enuf for them. ;-)

I have some large class wins, so yes, even that little piece of blue means something.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I've kept Delphi's first class ribbons...when she wins a class with me, I'll be keeping that, lol.

I also kept all of my very first ribbons from when I started showing, including the ribbon of when I won an Open Dog class of 9 over two pro handlers.



> I'm really enjoying this thread! It's done a lot to reform my opinion of conformation.


I'm very glad to hear that  Thanks to Keechak for starting an awesome thread ^_^


----------



## spugs (May 4, 2009)

Do you put collars on your show dogs? I know you use special show lead/collars but what about the rest of the time. Would wearing a collar all the time damage the coat? I have a papillon and I worried that by letting her wear a collar all the time it may spoil her coat around her neck.


----------



## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

spugs said:


> Do you put collars on your show dogs? I know you use special show lead/collars but what about the rest of the time. Would wearing a collar all the time damage the coat? I have a papillon and I worried that by letting her wear a collar all the time it may spoil her coat around her neck.


Most people that I know do not keep collars on their show dogs for the most part. I never did on my collies except when traveling.


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

jett does not wear a collar in the house. I do have a rolled leather one for him if we are going out to a park or other public place where I feel he *needs* to have his tags on. He is also microchipped so I hope that would help if he was to get lost.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

craven.44 said:


> This question might be a bit weird, but, hey, I'm curious. Obviously you would want to breed a champion bitch (or a bitch on her way to a championship), and I assume you may want to continue showing her after she has had puppies. I know that in rescue we see dogs that have had litters and they get a bit saggy. Are their ways to get show dogs back into shape after puppies? Like, the teats and everything. Or would a brood bitch in the ring not be penalized for a bit of loss of shape?


Summer's a failed show dog but after her litter, it took a few months but I got her on good food and a pretty rigorous exercise schedule. She got back into shape really fast. 



> Do you put collars on your show dogs? I know you use special show lead/collars but what about the rest of the time. Would wearing a collar all the time damage the coat? I have a papillon and I worried that by letting her wear a collar all the time it may spoil her coat around her neck.


I wouldn't let your pap wear a collar around the house. Especially stay away from harnesses as they can damage the coat pretty bad. Beau wore his collar only when absolutely necessary.


----------



## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Can anyone explain the various performance titles? There seems to be hundreds of them. 

I love this thread, btw. You guys have answered a lot of my questions.


----------



## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Rowdy said:


> Can anyone explain the various performance titles? There seems to be hundreds of them.
> 
> I love this thread, btw. You guys have answered a lot of my questions.


I don't know how much detail you want but here are some of the titles:

CD = Companion Dog: first level obedience title 
CDX = Companion Dog Excellent: second level obedience title
UD = Utility Dog: third level-advanced obedience title
UDX = Utility Dog Excellent - fourth level, very advanced obedience title
OTCH = Obedience champion

RN = Rally Novice
TD = Tracking Dog
TDX= Tracking Dog Excellent


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

*AKC*

*Agility*

NA- Novice Agility standard
NAP- Novice Agility standard Preferred 
NAJ- Novice Agility Jumpers
NJP- Novice Jumpers Preferred
NF- Novice FAST
NFP- Novice FAST Preferred
OA- Open Agility standard
OAP-Open Agility standard Preferred
OAJ- Open Agility Jumpers
OJP- Open Jumpers Preferred
OF- Open FAST
OFP- Open FAST Preferred
AX- Agility Excellent standard
AXP- Agility Excellent standard Preferred
AXJ- Agility Excellent Jumpers (Kechara has everything here and before this in the regular classes)
AJP- Agility Excellent Jumpers Preferred
XF- Excellent FAST
XFP- Excellent FAST Preferred
PAX- Preferred Agility Excellent (the highest title you can get in Preferred)
MX- Masters Agility standard
MXJ- Masters Agility Jumpers
MXF- Master FAST
MFP- Master FAST Preferred
FTC- FAST Century
FTCP- FAST Century Preferred
MACH- Master Agility Champion

*Obedience
*
GN- Graduate Novice
CD-companion Dog
GO- Graduate Open
CDX- Companion Dog Excellent
UD- Utility dog
UDX- Utility Dog Excellent
OTCH- Obedience trial Champion

*Herding*

HT- Herding Tested
PT- Pre-trial Tested
HS- Herding Started
HSAdsc- Herding Started Course A (ducks, sheep, cattle)
HSBdsc- Herding Started Course B (ducks, sheep, cattle)
HSCs- Herding Started Course C (sheep)
HI- Herding Intermediate
HIAdsc- Herding Intermediate Course A (Ducks sheep cattle)
HIBdsc- Herding Intermediate Course B (Ducks Sheep Cattle)
HICs- Herding Intermediate Course C (sheep)
HX- Herding Excellent
HXAdsc- Herding Excellent course A (Ducks sheep cattle)
HXBdsc- Herding Excellent Course B (ducks sheep cattle)
HXCs- Herding Excellent Course C (sheep)
HC- Herding Champion

*Tracking*

TD- Tracking Dog
TDX- Tracking dog Excellent
VST- Variable surface tracker
CT- Champion Tracker

*Earth Dog*

JE- Junior Earthdog
ME- Master Earthdog
SE- Senior Earthdog
*
Hunting*

JH- Junior Hunter
MH- Master Hunter
SH- Senior Hunter

FC- Field Champion
AFC- Amateur Field Champion
NFC- National Field Champion
GDSC- Gun dog Stake Champion
NAFC- National Amateur Field Champion
NGDC- National Gun dog Champion
NOGDC- National Open Gun Dog Champion
RGDSC- Retrieving Gun dog Stake Champion
***** Hound Events*(under Hunting)
CCH- coonhound Bench Show Champion
CGC- coonhound Grand Champion (not to be confused with Canine Good Citizen)
CGF- Coonhound Grand Field Champion
CNC- Coonhound night Champion
WNC- World Night Champion
CGN- Coonhound grand night champion
CSGN- Coonhound supreme grand night champion
CWC- Coonhound water race champion
CGW- Coonhound grand water race champion
CSGW- Coonhound Supreme grand water race champion
CSG- Coonhound Supeme grand champion
CSGF- Coonhound Supreme grand Field champion
CWSG- Coonhound World Show Champion Grand Champion
*
Lure Coursing*

JC- Junior Courser
SC- Senior Courser
MC- Master Courser
LCX- Lure courser Excellent
FC- Field Champion
NFC- National Field Champion


I think that's It. But I Probably missed something

The Hunting titles are SOOOOOOO Confusing!

Oh Dang that's right I forgot Rally-O


----------



## craven.44 (Sep 10, 2008)

Wow. That is a LOT of titles.


----------



## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

RA = Rally Advanced
RE = Rally Excellent
RAE = Rally Advanced Excellent (must Q ten times in both the E and A class on the same day)


----------



## spugs (May 4, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I wouldn't let your pap wear a collar around the house. Especially stay away from harnesses as they can damage the coat pretty bad. Beau wore his collar only when absolutely necessary.


Thanks you x


----------



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

What is Register of Merit (ROM)?


----------



## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

It differs for each breed. But ROM means that a sire or dam has produced a certain number of CHs.


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

craven.44 said:


> Wow. That is a LOT of titles.


And that's just AKC lol


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Judging by those titles. you would think the AKC was built off of Coonhound enthusiasts


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Wow, this thread is great! I'm a new show handler and now I feel like I actually understand the classes in each breed. Thanks!


----------



## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

*Agility Association of Canada Titles*

ADC- Agility Dog of Canada
AADC- Advanced Agility Dog of Canada
MADC- Master Agility Dog of Canada
ATChC- Agility Trial Champion of Canada

SGDC- Starter Games Dog of Canada
AGDC- Advanced Games Dog of Canada

MGDC- Masters Gamblers Dog of Canada
MJDC- Masters Jumpers Dog of Canada
MSDC- Masters Snooker Dog of Canada
MTRDC- Masters Team Relay Dog of Canada
MSCDC- Master Steeplechase Dog of Canada
MCDC- Masters Challenge Dog of Canada

Bronze Award of Merit
Silver Award of Merit
Gold Award of Merit
Lifetime Achievement Award of Excellence

ExSt Bronze- Expert "class" Bronze Standard
ExJ Bronze- Expert "class" Bronze Jumpers
ExSn Bronze- Expert "class" Bronze Snooker
ExG Bronze- Expert "class" Bronze Gamble
ExT Bronze- Expert "class" Bronze Team
ExSc Bronze- Expert Steeplechase Bronze
ExC Bronze- Expert Challenge Bronze

ExSt Silver- Expert "class" Silver Standard
ExJ Silver- Expert "class" Silver Jumpers
ExSn Silver- Expert "class" Silver Snooker
ExG Silver- Expert "class" Silver Gamble
ExT Silver- Expert "class" Silver Team
ExSc Silver- Expert Steeplechase Silver
ExC Silver- Expert Challenge Silver


ExSt Gold- Expert "class" Gold Standard
ExJ Gold- Expert "class" Gold Jumpers
ExSn Gold- Expert "class" Gold Snooker
ExG Gold- Expert "class" Gold Gamble
ExT Gold- Expert "class" Gold Team
ExSc Gold- Expert Steeplechase Gold
ExC Gold- Expert Challenge Gold

VBA- Versatility Bronze Award
VSA- Versatility Silver Award
VGA- Versatility Gold Award
VLA- Versatility Lifetime Award

*Canadian Association of Rally Obedience Titles*

RN- Rally Novice - Can also be RNCL and RNMCL for higher scores
RA- Rally Advanced - Can also be RACL and RAMCL for higher scores
RX- Rally Excellent - Can also be RXCL and RXMCL for higher scores
V- Rally Versatility
RNT- Rally Novice Team
RAT- Rally Advanced Team
RXT- Rally Excellent Team
RVT- Rally Versatility Team
CRB- CARO Rally Bronze
CRS- CARO Rally Silver
CRG- CARO Rally Gold
CRMCH- CARO Rally Masters Championship


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

Being new to the breed ring , this is something we just learned. Breed people help me out if I get this wrong!!
If you get second place in a regular class you need to hang aorund ringside for the winners class. if the dog that beat you gets winners, then you go back in for a chance at reserve winners.


----------



## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

you are correct


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

kacaju said:


> Being new to the breed ring , this is something we just learned. Breed people help me out if I get this wrong!!
> If you get second place in a regular class you need to hang aorund ringside for the winners class. if the dog that beat you gets winners, then you go back in for a chance at reserve winners.


Yup you always want to stick around for reserve winners. If there happens to be an error of some sort and the winners dog gets it's points pulled away then they would go to the reserve dog. It's also good sportsmanship to stick around at least till the breed is over. You and your dog aren't going to get very far if you leave the second you lose and never stick around to see who the winning competion is.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I didn't know that about the second place. Hawk has tons of second places (and one third) I've never stuck around but now I will.

Although it is very disheartining when your first conformation dog never gets 1st place. *sigh*


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

What do you do to groom your dog? 

Would you ever do any altering (like besides hair cut to the breed standard or something like that) dental work, hair dying?

What do you take with you to shows (dog related not like a jacket, cell phone)?


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> What do you do to groom your dog?
> 
> Would you ever do any altering (like besides hair cut to the breed standard or something like that) dental work, hair dying?
> 
> What do you take with you to shows (dog related not like a jacket, cell phone)?




I brush Hawk, trim his nails and feet neaten the flyaway hair on his ears, and brush up the fur on his legs and feet, and brush down the top line.


I don't do any altering it is aginst my personal morals to do such changes although it does happen commonly in my breed and I have had other people push me to do things such as color his nose with a marker.

grooming supplies, food, a tug toy, slow chain and lead.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> What do you do to groom your dog?


Depends on which dog(s) I've got.



> Would you ever do any altering (like besides hair cut to the breed standard or something like that) dental work, hair dying?


Never.



> What do you take with you to shows (dog related not like a jacket, cell phone)?


Ohhhh, I've got all sorts of stuff...Snoods, various brushes and combs, waterless shampoo, various scissors and thinning shears, forced air dryer, grooming table....


----------



## tsgiss (Aug 13, 2009)

Can you give some more sample question and answers. How great your info is! It really useful for me. Thanks.


calcul pret assurance simulation taux emprunt immobilier - Taux emprunt immobilier. Comparez les offres d’emprunt immobilier, simulation emprunt immobilier, taux emprunt immobiliercalcul pret assurance simulation taux emprunt immobilier


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

How much do the typical show dogs cost (Just the cost for purchasing from a breeder, not over their lifetime)? The only prices I know off the top of my head are the prices of show Papillons from a few breeders in my area. $1000-$1750 is so far what I've seen for show paps.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Hawk's breeder charges $1000 for a breeding puppy and $700 for a puppy sold on a S/N contract.

For Hawk's breeder tho a puppy sold on a breeding contract may not nessisarily be show quality because she also sells to working kennels.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Keechak said:


> Hawk's breeder charges $1000 for a breeding puppy and $700 for a puppy sold on a S/N contract.
> 
> For Hawk's breeder tho a puppy sold on a breeding contract may not nessisarily be show quality because she also sells to working kennels.


Does a breeding puppy contract = a show puppy contract even if you don't intend on breeding?

Also, I've heard that toy breeds tend to, on average, cost more then bigger breeds. Is there any reason? Or do breeders charge more just because they can?


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Nargle said:


> Also, I've heard that toy breeds tend to, on average, cost more then bigger breeds. Is there any reason? Or do breeders charge more just because they can?


The reason I've most commonly heard is that smaller breeds tend to have smaller litters, on average, so there are fewer dogs to go around.

Say a Papillon and a Golden Retriever both have two litters and retire. On average the Papillon has say 2-3 pups/litter...the Golden's more around 7-8/litter. Presumably the breeder wishes to keep a puppy from each litter... so that 2-4 Papillons available vs. 12-14 Goldens...


Then there are all the people who visit DF, see the millions of adorably Papillons on this forum (and the surprising lack of Goldens) and go off clamoring for a cute little butterfly of their own so now you add demand in there...
(okay the last part was a little tongue in cheek )


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Shaina said:


> The reason I've most commonly heard is that smaller breeds tend to have smaller litters, on average, so there are fewer dogs to go around.


That does make a lot of sense. Especially since the biggest litter ever was from a Neapolitan Mastiff! http://www.dreamdogs.co.uk/largest-ever-litter-of-puppies-206.html

Wow, 24 puppies! Lol, and BIG ones, too! Seems like the breeder would go bankrupt just trying to buy enough food for all of them!


----------



## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Twenty-four puppies in a single litter...

That is just terrifying lol

I'm amazed that twenty survived...I would have thought there would be a much greater mortality rate than that.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Does a breeding puppy contract = a show puppy contract even if you don't intend on breeding?


yep, I don't have to breed Hawk if I don't want to but I am not allowed to neuter him.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> How much do the typical show dogs cost (Just the cost for purchasing from a breeder, not over their lifetime)? The only prices I know off the top of my head are the prices of show Papillons from a few breeders in my area. $1000-$1750 is so far what I've seen for show paps.


Depends on a lot of things. Breed, location, availability....stupidity on the part of buyers (Yes, seriously).

A FAIRLY priced American Show line GSD puppy costs between $1000-2000 
West German Showlines $1500-3000 is the range I tend to see.
East German/DDR & Czech Working lines between $800-1500....I do see some at $1800, but the lines are rare in the country or in general.

Prices vary greatly dependent upon the circumstances as well. An older female bought for a foundation/brood bitch can be pretty expensive. Delphi is valued at $2500.




> Does a breeding puppy contract = a show puppy contract even if you don't intend on breeding?


No. Sometimes a bitch or dog (98% of the time it's bitches) are sold on breeding only contracts, due to something that may fault them in the ring, but is not a disqualifying fault. Some just DON'T like to show, but can still be excellent producers in the whelping box.

In the case of GSDs, in American circles it is not uncommon for a long coated bitch (that is sound in structure etc.) to be sold as a brood bitch (she won't be shown in conformation, but you can show her in performance still, etc), and she'll just be bred from.

Long coats are only a minor fault in Shepherds, but trying to finish one is generally pointless, because when all othwe things can be considered equal between two dogs, the short coated dog is the winner.



> Also, I've heard that toy breeds tend to, on average, cost more then bigger breeds. Is there any reason? Or do breeders charge more just because they can?


It's simply due to availability and extra care of toy breed litters. Some of the toy breeds need C-Sections a lot of the time, so that increases the cost of the puppies. Toy breeds also tend towards having small litters (Especially breeds like the Papillon and Chihuahua).

These breeders aren't charging more than other breeds because they want to. They have to, to cover costs.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Lots of great info! Thank you! 
Is there a reason that the West German Show-lines are so expensive?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Is there a reason that the West German Show-lines are so expensive?


They're more popular, people will pay more for them.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Thanks for the answers. 



Nargle said:


> How much do the typical show dogs cost (Just the cost for purchasing from a breeder, not over their lifetime)? The only prices I know off the top of my head are the prices of show Papillons from a few breeders in my area. $1000-$1750 is so far what I've seen for show paps.


I believe it depends on the breed as well as the breeder. 



Nargle said:


> Does a breeding puppy contract = a show puppy contract even if you don't intend on breeding?
> 
> Also, I've heard that toy breeds tend to, on average, cost more then bigger breeds. Is there any reason? Or do breeders charge more just because they can?


Perhaps sometimes but I've seen bigger breeds which cost the same, maybe most and large breed which are also the same or more. English Bulldogs can be expensive to breed, though they are not toys which means some breeders on average are going to have pups that are more expensive then breeds that are less expensive/easier to breed. Part of it is about covering cost.


----------



## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

On average how much does is cost to get a dog to it's championship?

If your using a professional handler, does the handler groom the dog or do you?

Is there a limit to the number of dogs a handler can show in one day?

Are there certain breeds that tend to enjoy showing more? Are there breeds that really just don't like to show?

How do you get into handling? 

For someone interested in showing for the first time, how would you recommend getting into it?


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

> On average how much does is cost to get a dog to it's championship?


Depends on the dog and the judges I've seen 7 month old puppies get their Ch. and I've heard of 6 year old dogs getting their Ch.

Of course the longer it takes (i.e. the more shows you have to enter) the more it will cost

so far I've spent about $200 in entry fees for Hawk, He has yet to get even a 1st place, so we have a long ways to go



> Are there certain breeds that tend to enjoy showing more? Are there breeds that really just don't like to show?


Not really at least not that I've ever heard of



> For someone interested in showing for the first time, how would you recommend getting into it?


go to lots of dog shows and talk to lots of people, and join a dog training club


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> On average how much does is cost to get a dog to it's championship?


Depends on the handler and the quality of the dog.



> If your using a professional handler, does the handler groom the dog or do you?


Also depends....some people send their dogs off with a handler for months at a time and the handler takes care of everything. Other people will bathe their dogs and prep them, and the handler will do a ring side pick up, or grab them a few minutes beforehand for last minute touch-ups.



> Is there a limit to the number of dogs a handler can show in one day?


Within the rules? No. Feasibly? Yes. But it also depends on how many assistants the handler has.



> Are there certain breeds that tend to enjoy showing more? Are there breeds that really just don't like to show?


Enjoy it more? No. Tend to win more due to the flash of the breed? Yes. For example, there are judges that are noted for putting up "hair". So if the judge is judging Herding Group, if they like hair, they'll tend to go for dogs like the Briard, Rough Collie, Shetland Sheepdog, Bouvier des Flandres, etc



> How do you get into handling?


Ohhh there are various ways...the easiest way is to just be born into it, LOL.



> For someone interested in showing for the first time, how would you recommend getting into it?


Hit some shows and find a kennel club.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Imo you don't show. A dog that doesn't like it can't show well. This is actually what happened with Rose. She's show quality but she hated it and thus never placed despite how good she was. She would shake and tremble and sulk around the ring. It's not worth it to put your dog in a situation they hate just to win. And you don't want that type of temperament in a future generation of show dogs anyways. The dogs that win are often the Beaus in the ring- the ones that go in screaming 'Look at me!' Beau thought showing was the best thing ever and he thought the whole thing revolved around him. Those catchy personalities are the ones that'll do well.


Yup that's exactly what our Pap breeder told us. Nia is show quality as well but she hates being walked around or examined in the ring. It scares her and her breeder noticed it already at 3 months old. She was never actually entered in a show but she was kept by the breeder for showing. In the end our breeder decided to sell her as a pet to me.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LilMissSunshine said:


> 1. when the judge goes over/feels each dog, is it ok for the dog to like wag its tail or appear happy to be being petted? Ive noticed many of the dogs stand very very still, is this something that is trained?


Yes I think so. Most dogs are used to it and some is training so they don't move much. Others do wag their tail and wiggle. It depends on what the dog naturally does and their training and again some dogs are so used to it they really don't pay much mind to it at all. I've had dogs which started wagging their tail and even wiggled their body a little. 



> 2. Stacking. do dogs learn how to do that on their own? or are you allowed to move their feet around/help them out?


I've had some dogs which naturally stacked themselves, quite beautifully actually. But I do also hand stack mine in which I move their feed around, ect as sometimes they might not be standing that well. 



> 3. ..what if a dog, goes potty? lol i know this may seem like an odd question, but what if you dog goes? is that like an automatic disqualification?


In conformation ring/holding area it is cleaned up and they are not DQ'd. 



> 4. In breeds that can be shown cropped/uncropped or docked/not docked, which do you think wins more often?


Depends on the breed as well as registry. In many breed that can be cropped there are mostly cropped dogs and some favoritism might be shown to cropped dogs. All other things equal a cropped dog might win over a non cropped or even a slightly better natural dog sometimes looses to a cropped dog. I show in one registry specialty breed ring where there can be many uncropped dogs, I'd say out numbering cropped and some judges prefer uncropped, though that is just as biased as those who put up a cropped dog over a slightly better non cropped dog. 

In some breeds that are normally docked you can show with a natural tail, though the judge might not like it. 

Unfortunately can be harder to finish natural dogs.



> 5. The pictures. you know the one with the dog, and the little sign, and the ribbon? how much are those pictures? can you take them yourself?


Depends on the show/registry. I've been to shows where they have people waiting to take pics, others where they have no one and some where there is just a single person with some back drops and such. I take pics myself as provide commercial services for those wishing for pics for big wins. Don't really know/remember the general prices. Though I know mine which vary depending on size and all that. (we can also provide a frame for extra charge) 



> 6. Do you meet a lot of people @ shows, like prospective breed owners, curious people etc.? do you enjoy talking to people about ur breed?


Yes I've meet tons of people. I've met people that I've become friends with, got dogs and traded dog with, people who've got close enough to me for me to co own dogs with them. I love talking to most people. Yes curious people show up too. 



> 7. does everyone get something? i know winners get like those huge ribbons, but do they give out little like "good try" ribbons so nobody goes home with nothing?


Nope, not really. Either you win or you don't. I have been at a couple, rare shows where they did mail us participation certificates, though that is not the norm and it was one club in particular that did it by their own will. I think it was more of a "thank you" type thing for people coming out to their show year after year that they wanted to recognize those who did. 



> 8. If you had a great confirmation puppy, but it doesn't LIKE to show, what do you do?


Don't show that pup. Sometimes if they don't seem to like it first time out I might try it another show to see how they act. Otherwise I just won't show them if they don't like it. Part of the reason I show is because my dogs get enjoyment out of it. 



> how do you choose show pups/pet pups other than confirmation? is there an attitude/personality?


Yes I like to have the "shining star, I'm a winner attitude". A dog that just gets itself noticed, is out going and likes being in the ring along with good conformation.



Xeph said:


> Depends on which dog(s) I've got.


Can you give a run down of a specific dog/breed. I too show multiple dogs and different breeds. Interested in having a more in-depth answer if you have time.

Myself for Pits pretty much easy with them. I trim their nails, brush them. Sometimes I bathe them (usually, but not always). That is about it. 

As for what I take it is a ton of stuff, I will try to list later. Sometimes I think I take too much just like myself but I'd rather have something that I don't need then end up needing it and not have it.



ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> On average how much does is cost to get a dog to it's championship?


I'd say depends....

It varies by registry. By how good an individual dog is. Also like someone else (Xeph I think) said how good a handler is. 

I've spent under $200 and over $500, probably well over for some though I'd have to go back and calculate to be exact. 



> For someone interested in showing for the first time, how would you recommend getting into it?


Going to shows, talking with people that show, getting with a couple of breeders and finding a show quality dog with someone to mentor.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I apologize in advance for a longwinded post.



> Can you give a run down of a specific dog/breed. I too show multiple dogs and different breeds. Interested in having a more in-depth answer if you have time.


We're going to compare 4 dogs of 2 different breeds, just so you can get an idea 

First off we'll take Delphi and Justin.

Justin has a LOT of coat and is a substantial boy, so I actually bathe him TWICE the week he's being shown. The first time I take a degreaser shampoo (aka, Dawn xD) and purposely strip the oil from his coat. After that rinse, I add a human grade conditioner (Tresseme or something similar....I've been known to use Cholesterol). I allow that to sit for a few minutes and then rinse.

When I get him up on the table I blow him out thoroughly, using an undercoat rake/poodle comb if he's blowing coat. Believe it or not, even when Justin is naked, he doesn't look naked, so pulling out all the dead coat isn't a concern of mine, and he presents a nicer picture.

If he's NOT blowing coat, I simply use a pin brush and I BACK brush his topline as I dry it, especially the croup, as he has a tailset that is a bit too low. Fluffing the croup and then resetting it with a pin brush hides the awkward set.

For his second bath, I bathe him in a moisturizing shampoo, rinse, and forego the conditioner. I need the hair shafts to be "rough" (conditioners smooth the hair shaft, that's why hair feels soft after you use it).

When I actually get to the show Justin goes on the table, he is sprayed down with water (especially on the thighs and through his "pants") and blown out to rid him of any cowlicks and to get his ruff up. His nails have been done a day or two prior, teeth are scaled. I do a tooth check before ring time.

With Delphi she is bathed a day before the show, using a moisturizing shampoo (Coconut oil infused). She is well dried and put up for the night. The day of the show she is put up on the table, I use a Self-Rinse (waterless shampoo), and then soak down her thighs and ruff with a bodifier. Blow out and back brush with a pin brush, reset with a slicker to finish.

The other breed I show fairly often is English Cocker Spaniels. They are a TON more work. If I have two of them (and I usually have more than that), and their show time is at 1, I've got them on the table at 10 AM.

We'll take Jack and Mona (dog and bitch, brother and sister) for my examples.

Jack has AMPLE coat, BUT he miraculously also holds his show groom the best, so he is always done first.

First he is put up on the table where I have a bucket of fresh water waiting. I bathe almost the ENTIRE dog right there on the table...not self rinse, actual shampoo. I use a sponge (think soft ScotchBrite) to thoroughly wet the hair and apply shampoo. I have several bottles of clean water waiting so I can rinse the dog.

The front legs all the way up to the armpits, the chest and belly, and the rear legs up to the groin are all bathed. Ears are bathed last and dried first...slowly, and painstakingly, with a hand held hair dryer (the human kind). 

Before drying, a highly watered down cholesterol mixture or anti-frizz hair serum is applied to the coat. The dryer is set to a high speed on low warm. I tend to stick it under my chin, and I take a medium/coarse poodle comb to the ears, carefully combing and separating the hair as I dry. This can take 15-20 minutes per ear. As soon as the ear is dried, I take a curved scissors and reshape the ears, making sure everything is even, and then, depending on how he's behaving that day, he either has his ears put up in vet wrap, or I put him in a snood.

Mona gets virtually the same treatment, however with her I have to use a Mousse on her to prevent friz of the topline. She also generally needs to have her feet reshaped (she's just weird), and I have to add a creme conditioner to her initial bath water to keep the static down.

BTW, I didn't even touch on the shaving a week before the show to get the head to look as it should


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

What is breed type? How does it interact with the standard in the ring?


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> What is breed type? How does it interact with the standard in the ring?


Preferred breed type will vary depending on the breed and person. With papillons there's not too much variation on breed type. The best I can explain is occasionally you get very chi looking dogs which I don't like because they don't look 'papillon enough' to me. I really strongly prefer the longer, finer muzzle and less bulging eyes that a 'typey' papillon has.

It's more evident in other breeds like the GSD where you have German show type versus American show type (for example). Depending on your dog you may have to pick and choose judges carefully to finish. There was one dog that we figured wouldn't like Beau's type but we tried anyways and we were right and he didn't place. (the only time he didn't take BOW when he showed actually). She liked a longer, bigger dog and judged a lot based on ears. Beau is a smaller, compact guy with smaller ears but a beautiful structure. Both were correct (I of course am partial to Beau) but one was just more her type than the other.


----------



## ValtheAussie (Apr 19, 2009)

Some breeders (some, not every of them) are ribbon crazed fools who will mate and produce dogs that are best described as mutants. It means nothing to them to breed dogs whose personalities are off the wall and unliveable, but they will keep on doing it, if it means that there might be a ribbon in the offing with a mating that is consanguinous or any such concoction.

Some of these breeders hide behind a veneer of respectability until one of their litters winds up to be a dysfunctional little terror, for whom no home can be found. 

Not all breeders are the same and not all dogs that are bred by the ribbon hungry are defective.

Be very careful when you decide to buy from a breeder and make sure that you get plenty of opinions about said breeder, so that you won't have to suffer with taking a dog back to a breeder, like my family had to suffer with, this past summer. It's just hearbreaking how a poorly bred dog can be totally unliveable in a pet home.....and conformation breeders seem to be the worst. They worry more about "conforming" than the the total dog at hand and plenty of dogs are around that shouldn't in any way be bred......


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

ValtheAussie said:


> Some of these breeders hide behind a veneer of respectability until one of their litters winds up to be a dysfunctional little terror, for whom no home can be found.
> 
> Be very careful when you decide to buy from a breeder and make sure that you get plenty of opinions about said breeder, so that you won't have to suffer with taking a dog back to a breeder, like my family had to suffer with, this past summer. It's just hearbreaking how a poorly bred dog can be totally unliveable in a pet home.....and conformation breeders seem to be the worst. They worry more about "conforming" than the the total dog at hand and plenty of dogs are around that shouldn't in any way be bred......


May I ask how any dog can be a dysfunctional little terror? What kinds of problems do they have? I can understand if the dog is a bit shy or a bit aggressive but what does a dog have to be like to be unsuitable for a pet home?

The only time I can understand that a dog cannot be put into a pet home is if they have too much work drive or needs too much stimulation...which to some breeders is a great thing if they want to do herding or sledding with their dogs.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

ValtheAussie said:


> Some breeders (some, not every of them) are ribbon crazed fools who will mate and produce dogs that are best described as mutants. It means nothing to them to breed dogs whose personalities are off the wall and unliveable, but they will keep on doing it, if it means that there might be a ribbon in the offing with a mating that is consanguinous or any such concoction.
> 
> Some of these breeders hide behind a veneer of respectability until one of their litters winds up to be a dysfunctional little terror, for whom no home can be found.
> 
> ...


What was the question again?


----------



## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

Keechak said:


> To me The perfect dog (and what every breeder should work towards) is a conformational correct dog who excels at breed specific activities.


This is what the breeders at Guide Dogs For The Blind do. The correct conformation, with the specific activity in mind; just not the activity it was originally bred for.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

ValtheAussie said:


> Some breeders (some, not every of them) are ribbon crazed fools who will mate and produce dogs that are best described as mutants. It means nothing to them to breed dogs whose personalities are off the wall and unliveable, but they will keep on doing it, if it means that there might be a ribbon in the offing with a mating that is consanguinous or any such concoction.
> 
> Some of these breeders hide behind a veneer of respectability until one of their litters winds up to be a dysfunctional little terror, for whom no home can be found.
> 
> ...


What question are you answering? and I agree that some breeders are ribbon hungry, but Val please try and keep things related to a question in this thread, or you could start your own thread. I would be happy to give you the names of many aussie breeders whom I trust and know their stock, and who put much emphasis on temperment in their breeding.

It seems like you have suffered a horrable misfortune with your first dog from a show breeder, but please don't let it turn you sour to all aussie breeders.



Smithcat said:


> This is what the breeders at Guide Dogs For The Blind do. The correct conformation, with the specific activity in mind; just not the activity it was originally bred for.


insted of Labrador Retievers you can call them Labrador Servers


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Reviving an older thread.

Why is it that some breeders feed their dogs special diets in show season or show weeks? Like high protein high fat? The dogs aren't exercised more than usual I don't think?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Why is it that some breeders feed their dogs special diets in show season or show weeks?


Depends entirely on the dog and the breeder.

Some dogs may need some extra weight because when they exercise (They ARE exercised more) it is hard to keep weight on. Dogs are always exercised and conditioned, and they need to maintain, but not all dogs tolerate it the same.

Some diets are also used to help build coat in certain breeds, such a the heavily coated spitzes, or toy breeds.


----------



## KYASHI (Apr 12, 2009)

I just wanted to say something about the AKC versus UKC subject. I have shown AKC for over 35 years. I grew up in it. I have shown UKC for over 7 years now. I also show in Bahamas, Bermuda, Canada and Mexico. All my dogs have done well in all of the venues. I have champions from both AKC and UKC. I have won Best in Show in both. The dogs I compete against in the UKC shows are of top quality. The judges at these shows know what they are doing. They have to. They are tested just like the AKC judges. They must pass these tests or they dont get a license. And the majority are breeders,handlers,owners who want to judge. I find that more UKC judges know the standards over the AKC judges. They take the time to read them and learn them. The AKC judges are just wanting another paycheck. 

I prefer to show UKC as it is more for the family. There are no pro handlers. It is a better learning experience for the novice exhibitor. And a lot more fun. You do and should still show your dog in a professional manner. No jeans and t shirts. No cut off daisy duke shorts. A nice outfit and you are set to go. Please do not think that exhibiting at UKC is so lax that people dont bother to dress up. Bathe and groom their dogs and they only show pet quality. This is not true. Those of us who do show UKC take great pride in our dogs. We only show our good ones as it is OUR reputations on the line if we take in a poor specimen. 

Go to a UKC show and see some of the top winning dogs in the U.S. being shown. Not all of them are at AKC events and on ESPN, USA or Animal Planet. We just dont get the TV coverage. Take your kids with you and enjoy a fun day with your family. Then go to an AKC show and see how much fun you wont have. When you get the dirty looks for even thinking of bringing your kids. And god forbid you ask a question. I know. I grew up around it. I was that way. I grew up and found other places I could show my dogs as well and have a heck of a lot more fun doing it. 

I just needed to get the point across. I see too much of people cutting down the UKC. Mostly becuase they have no clue. They have never even been to an event. And also becuase they have never taken the time to learn about it. Ignorance is so blinding.


----------



## JLWillow (Jul 21, 2009)

Do judges look at other things besides the way a dog looks when judging? (Besides the way they walk.)


----------



## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

if the judge is really judging the dog against the standard of that breed. what is the point of a proffesional/expensive handler? 
I understand sometimes breeders need someone to show for them.. but I dont understand the really expensive and "sought after" ones.. what do they do that makes them worth it? how do they help a dog win?


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

This isn't exactly show related but is AKC/CKC related. 

Only registered parents can have litters right? And the litters will then be registered with the AKC?

So...how many individuals were allowed to be registered at the start of the breed? I'm sure back then new dogs needed to be registered not from pre-existing dogs. How do they determine the correct qualities and how purebred they are?

Also how is it possible to get new show lines if no new dogs are allowed to be registered only litters from already registered members?


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

JLWillow said:


> Do judges look at other things besides the way a dog looks when judging? (Besides the way they walk.)


A good judge should also take the dog's attitiude into account. Some breeds are allowed to act a certain way compaired to others. According to the breed standard for dobermans, they are allowed a certain degree of aggression towards other dogs but aggression towards any human should get the dog kicked out of the ring.



LilMissSunshine said:


> if the judge is really judging the dog against the standard of that breed. what is the point of a proffesional/expensive handler?
> I understand sometimes breeders need someone to show for them.. but I dont understand the really expensive and "sought after" ones.. what do they do that makes them worth it? how do they help a dog win?


Some handlers know better on how to bring out a dogs specific qualities and hide faults better than an inexperianced handler. 

And altho judges are not supposed to choose a dog based on whoes handling it, they are only human and some are less than honerable.



Michiyo-Fir said:


> This isn't exactly show related but is AKC/CKC related.
> 
> Only registered parents can have litters right? And the litters will then be registered with the AKC?
> 
> ...



I think the AKC requires a 6 Gen Pedigree when stud books open but, 

This is VERY breed specific.

for instance breeds liek the border collie still have an open stud book, (meaning dogs not from AKC reg parents can still jump thru a few hoops and get registered)
Breeds like the Basenji and Saluki still allow imports of "wild" stock from their native regions in africa.

Most dogs registered with a national registery and imported to the us can (with lots of paperwork and money) be registered with the AKC.

It;s really up to the Breed clubs to open or close stud books and not the AKC it's self.

Breeds like mine are IMO doomed by the AKC and the Aussie club. THe Aussie is a native breed to the US and therefore any dog registerd with a national KC is from imported US stock and isn't geneticaly different from whats already in the AKC. My breed was also a VERY young breed with few individuals when the AKC accepted them, the Aussie has only been around, as a purebred, for about 60years compaire that to the saluki who had been around for thousands of years before AKC recognition.

This is why I am sticking mostly with ASCA now, their stud books aren't closed and they have a higher genetic population.


----------



## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Don't think this has been asked yet or if this is even the right category, but what about Junior showing?

What's that all about? Are they judged the same way other dog shows are?
Are the dogs adults or puppies?


----------



## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> Don't think this has been asked yet or if this is even the right category, but what about Junior showing?
> 
> What's that all about? Are they judged the same way other dog shows are?
> Are the dogs adults or puppies?


Junior Showmanship?

They are judged a lot like regular dog show classes, but they are judging the junior's ability to handle their dogs, and bring out the best. But a quality dog still really helps.

You can show puppies, adults, even veterans in juniors.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Reviving an older thread.
> 
> Why is it that some breeders feed their dogs special diets in show season or show weeks? Like high protein high fat? The dogs aren't exercised more than usual I don't think?


I feed a high pro/fat kibble all year to my dogs not eating raw. 

Many dogs are conditioned for shows which requires exercise.


----------



## kacaju (Jan 2, 2008)

ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> Don't think this has been asked yet or if this is even the right category, but what about Junior showing?
> 
> What's that all about? Are they judged the same way other dog shows are?
> Are the dogs adults or puppies?


Jr Show is divided into 6 classes.

Novice/Open Jr 9-12 year old

Novice/Open Intermediate 12-15 year old

Novice/Open Senior 15-18 year old

If you are starting out you go into the Noivce class for your age group. You have to win in the Novice level 3 times (with competition) to move up to the Open level.

Then you stay in the open level until you age out, which is on your 18th Birthday.

Jr Show is very competitive and the Open Intermediate class (at least here in the NJ area) can have 15-20 kids in the class!

The dog is not supposed to be judged, it is about how the kids handle the dog.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The dogs I compete against in the UKC shows are of top quality.


Well then you're lucky, because some of the GSDs I've seen them put up are DEFINITELY pets. And I am not talking about a nicely put together working line dogs (I've seen some of those winners and they are FABULOUS!), I'm talking about some easty westy lack of breed type GSDs that are not correct for any line.


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Xeph said:


> Well then you're lucky, because some of the GSDs I've seen them put up are DEFINITELY pets. And I am not talking about a nicely put together working line dogs (I've seen some of those winners and they are FABULOUS!), I'm talking about some easty westy lack of breed type GSDs that are not correct for any line.


Sadly I'd have to agree for some breeds. I just threw out an issues of Bloodlines from 93', UKC's KC magazine, and for Afghans 8 of the top 10 dogs were owned and bred by one person! Now it's gotten much better since then, but the quality of the dogs on a whole just doesn't compare to what's at AKC shows on a regular basis. Now if were talking coonhounds then I'd be going right to UKC for quality dogs. It's also important to remember that everyone has a different interpretation of the standard and one man's trash is another man's treasure.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I agree AC, if we were talking Coonhounds and the like, I'd hit UKC...but for dogs like many of the herders? I must disagree on the quality involved.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

How does a dog get the Int Ch. attached to their registration names? Is it by winning in however many countries or are there actually international shows?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Int Ch are IABCA


----------



## KYASHI (Apr 12, 2009)

To get an International championship you must enter at shows that are offering this championship. We have had them here in America. But the ones I went to were in Mexico. So I was able to pick up both the Mexican championship and the International all in one go. It was a lot of fun. I havent been in years now. I am not sure if they are still offering it.


----------



## ValtheAussie (Apr 19, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> May I ask how any dog can be a dysfunctional little terror? What kinds of problems do they have? I can understand if the dog is a bit shy or a bit aggressive but what does a dog have to be like to be unsuitable for a pet home?
> 
> The only time I can understand that a dog cannot be put into a pet home is if they have too much work drive or needs too much stimulation...which to some breeders is a great thing if they want to do herding or sledding with their dogs.


A dog that bites hard everywhere and everyone, (not normal Aussie nipping), this wasn't my first Aussie; lunges, is dangerously aggressive, is a lawsuit waiting to happen and for whom a certified behaviorist with plenty of experience has told you that you should, if you can, send your dog back to the breeder and tell them that they sold you a very poorly bred dog. 

Yeah, he was a good looking dog, but beauty is only skin deep and ugly cuts straight to the bone.

Some dogs are bred for "conformation" and just about every other trait is sacrificed in hopes of a good looking dog that can win ribbons.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

ValtheAussie, I don't really think it's a very common thing for show dogs to be bred with such a bad temperament. Temperament plays a big role in showing. A dog that's lunging at the judge wouldn't make it very far in the show ring. Heck, a dog that's too shy or too friendly will have a hard time placing, too.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Why yes, I do insist on reviving this thread every month or so. It's too good a resource not to.

Anyway, it came up in another thread (http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/63090-american-dogshows.html) about showing uncropped/docked dogs in America, where it's legal whereas in some other countries it's not. For example, the AKC English Cocker Spaniel standard calls for a docked tail. In England, they can be shown docked or undocked (I believe it's now illegal in the UK to dock a dog's tail). Does a KC undocked dog stand any chance of winning over a similar (or inferior) docked dog? I use the English Cocker as an example, because I saw one of Animal Planet's Sunday morning dog shows highlight a foreign undocked cocker. It was part of some international thing, so that doesn't really prove anything except that the AKC recognizes it as a purebred cocker spaniel.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

An undocked English Cocker Spaniel is disqualified in the AKC ring. 

The standard must state that cropping/docking is optional or that one look is "preferred". The English Cocker Spaniel Standard still calls for a docked tail, so dogs from other countries with natural tails are ineligible to be shown in AKC.

Now in Rottweilers a natural tail is allowed, but judges are so used to docked Rotties that many subconciously fault (and others openly fault) a tailed dog.

I have seen natural dogs win, but the preference is still for the docked dog, regardless of whether the docked animal is of lower quality than the tailed animal


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Xeph said:


> Now in Rottweilers a natural tail is allowed, but judges are so used to docked Rotties that many subconciously fault (and others openly fault) a tailed dog.


The current AKC standard for Rotts calls for a DOCKED tail


> Tail--Tail docked short, close to body, leaving one or two tail vertebrae. The set of the tail is more important than length. Properly set, it gives an impression of elongation of topline; carried slightly above horizontal when the dog is excited or moving.


The Rott club of America also had huge adds over a year ago stating that they don't support the undocked Rott and that judges should immediately excuse it from their ring. I don't know if they've run any current adds since I haven't renewed my magazine subscriptions since my return from Europe in august, but last I checked the were adamantly against natural tailed Rotts.

I also find it interesting to note that while the standards of docked breeds call for a docked tail, they don't list natural tails as a disqualification or even a fault. Quite a few of the standards are rather unspecific about the length of the dock as well.


----------

