# Ca:P ratio of Raw



## Ringer (Apr 22, 2008)

I haven't read into why the ratio of Ca is so important in a dog's diet so I'll worry about that later. My question is, is this ratio optimal when you are feeding a raw diet? My assumption is that if they are on kibble it will be pretty close but do you guys supplement your dog with either more Ca or more P when doing the raw diet? Or, is this ratio pretty optimal when on the raw diet? Thanks in advance.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

It all depends on what you consider a raw diet, what are you feeding? If you are feeding things like whole chickens, then you're good to go since chickens have almost the perfect C ratio. However if you are feeding ground beef, no bones...now you have a C issue.

And for your future studying on C...(this is a good chemical explanation, please disregard that it comes from a manufacturer's website, I am not promoting the food sold on this site)

By Dr. Spencer Roach
Research and Development
Steve’s Real Food Inc.
Eugene, OR 97401

Raw diets, when prepared properly, are certainly the healthiest ways to feed dogs. But too often many people get confused about the proper ways to add calcium and phosphorus and change a great diet into a poor diet. Dogs need the proper amounts of calcium and phosphorus in order to grow well and remain healthy. This article will outline how much calcium and phosphorus dogs need, why, and will list the calcium and phosphorus sources of common ingredients used by many raw feeders.

Calcium and phosphorus are both essential minerals in canine diets. Calcium is a critical component of bone and cartilage, and it also plays a minor role in hormone transmission. Phosphorus is also a major component of bone. Calcium and phosphorus are found in bone as calcium hydroxyapatite, with a molecular formula of Ca10(PO4)6(OH)2. While the calcium/phosphorus ratio in hydroxyapatite is 1.7:1, energy-carrying molecules such as ATP (adenosine tri-phosphate) and others increase non-skeletal demand for phosphorus. As such, the optimal dietary calcium/phosphorus ratio is between 1.2:1 and 1.3:1. The chart below lists calcium/phosphorus minima and maxima for various life stages on a dry matter basis1. 

Growth 
Adult Maintenance 
Maximum 

Calcium 
1.0% 
0.6% 
2.5% 

Phosphorus 
0.8% 
0.5% 
1.6% 




Calcium/phosphorus metabolism is mediated by 1,25(OH)2-vitamin D in the small intestine, and by parathyroid hormone in the bloodstream. There is a complex feedback loop that balances intestinal absorption, bone resorption, and renal excretion of both minerals. Too much calcium can result in increased bone density, which has been implicated as a factor in hip dysplasia in young and old dogs alike. Too little calcium can cause bone demineralization (and consequently an increased risk of skeletal fracture) and stunted growth. Phosphorus excess can lead to renal damage, while phosphorous deficiency is rarely (if ever) seen in carnivores. 

Most of the calcium and phosphorus in Steve's Real Food chicken and turkey varieties comes from raw, ground up chicken backs or turkey necks. We also use a variety of calcium and phosphorus supplements in order to reach optimum levels of nutrition. Many raw diet advocates overestimate the levels of phosphorous in meat. Meat and pure calcium supplements alone do not provide adequate levels of phosphorus. We found through extensive nutrient analysis that we had to add phosphorus in conjunction with calcium. We use several pure calcium sources and calcium/ phosphorus sources to fine-tune our food's nutrition. Below are the calcium and phosphorus contents of some common raw meaty bones and other mineral sources. Also included are moisture, protein, and fat, so the mathematically inclined can estimate the dry matter calcium/phosphorus content as well as the energy density. Carbohydrate content is negligible for all ingredients.

Calcium (%) 
Phosphorus (%) 
Moisture (%) 
Protein (%) 
Fat (%) 

Beef, whole 
0.07 
0.2 
65.5 
19.6 
12.2 

Chicken Breast 
0.01 
0.17 
69.5 
20.9 
9.3 

Chicken Backs 
0.48 
0.4 
60.7 
12.6 
24.4 

Chicken Wings 
0.87 
0.78 
64.8 
17.2 
12 

Turkey Necks 
0.69 
0.73 
62.5 
12.4 
19.9 

Beef Bonemeal 
30.6 
11.3 
--- 
--- 
--- 

Egg Shell Powder 
38.1 
--- 
--- 
--- 
--- 

Dicalcium Phosphate 
29.4 
23 
--- 
--- 
--- 


1) Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO), Official Publication, 2001.


----------



## Ringer (Apr 22, 2008)

Thanks for that information! The little raw food I've fed Denali have been chicken backs and turkey necks which was listed in that article and appears to have a good Ca ratio. I probably won't incorporate ground beef or plain chicken breasts until I go all out with the raw because it looks like it disrupts the ratio and they are getting plenty of phosporous but without the bones, aren't getting the calcium. Somebody can correct me if I'm mistaken. Thanks again for posting.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Just to let you know, here's a thread I started about the calc-phos ratio awhile ago...Briteday left some very good advice which I have been using as a pretty successful guideline.

http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/25240-calcium-phosphorus-ratio.html


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Hope Spunky is doing well!

I have started using the finely ground eggshell to supplement meat-only meals. Just be sure to grind the shells into a powder or the pieces will just pass through, unabsorbed. 

Although the source I used mentioned bone meal, I haven't found any that was food grade, so I don't know if that's a viable solution. Tums (or any product like it, I have used the Walmart generic) seems to be a handy solution if traveling or no access to whole eggs. Just watch for too many additives on the label.  I've also looked at some of the dog vitamin supplements on the market. But they are pretty expensive and other than balancing the C I don't think my dogs need the rest of the stuff as they are getting a very well rounded, balanced diet...probably better than mine!


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Let me just say that I personally do not worry about calcium and phosphorous ratios.... no more than I worry about eating the entire food pyramid in one day.... 

I have one friend who freaks about these ratios and has her whole diet carefully scripted.... 

Most of us (me and my friends) live on the assumption that 

VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE 

so we feel that if your dog is getting a good variety of meats and other foods.... (we feed, beans, yogurt, sweet potato's, leftover, pasta, oatmeal, cottage cheese..... whatever.... assorted veggies) that as long as they are getting a good variety then it all works itself out in the end without going crazy with math..... 

now I have been feeding raw for 8 years.... a friend of mine close to ten..... and that is how we do things here.... 

in my opinion.... raw diets mean different things to different folks.... and I choose not to make myself nuts about it..... 

s


----------



## Motebi (Apr 8, 2008)

I feed raw and my dogs get bones once a week. (On Farmer's Market Day) However, I do feed "Honest Kitchen Embark" or "HK Force" and add fresh meat to it. I think that way their diet is pretty much balanced.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

For the average dog on raw I think a variety diet works great. However, there are several of us around feeding dogs a raw diet for other reasons. Mine is a dog who is allergic to something int he processing of kibble (couldn't tolerate anything commercial but does great on raw) but has lost so many teeth that feeding bones is not feasible. She gets whole ground chickens one meal per day , including bones. However her other meal is generally muscle meat (any species) without bone. So now we have a C imbalance. And since she gets a few veggies/fruits, no grains I'm not sure that would give her enough calcium to outweigh the muscle meat. 

We had been giving some yogurt but she seems to get runny stools from it so we stopped. 

I think the average dog on raw who can eat whole animal, prey model diet is going to do great on raw without supplements. But for those who need to modify I'd rather be safe than sorry.


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

briteday said:


> For the average dog on raw I think a variety diet works great. However, there are several of us around feeding dogs a raw diet for other reasons. Mine is a dog who is allergic to something int he processing of kibble (couldn't tolerate anything commercial but does great on raw) but has lost so many teeth that feeding bones is not feasible. She gets whole ground chickens one meal per day , including bones. However her other meal is generally muscle meat (any species) without bone. So now we have a C imbalance. And since she gets a few veggies/fruits, no grains I'm not sure that would give her enough calcium to outweigh the muscle meat.
> 
> We had been giving some yogurt but she seems to get runny stools from it so we stopped.
> 
> I think the average dog on raw who can eat whole animal, prey model diet is going to do great on raw without supplements. But for those who need to modify I'd rather be safe than sorry.


absolutely agree 
I have just been doing it for so long now i just dont overthink it anymore 
s


----------

