# Need to document this so that I won't back out. plus raw question.



## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

THIS







Will be the last bag of kibble I will buy. As soon as it is empty (approx 10 days) we are starting full raw. I plan on doing a mix of pre made and my own mix depending on prices and sales that week. 

I just needed to post this here so that I don't chicken out on this, I'm already successfully feeding Lilac (cat) 100% raw (quite a few months now) so now it's just time to move Manna over. I done some calculations and I figure it should be roughly that same cost, a little more labor, but safer for the cat who keeps trying to die via puppy kibble. 

but 1 question
can I start with Turkey instead of Chicken? 
Turkey is just cheaper for the meat and organ plus Manna already tolerates raw turkey organ and meat scraps from the kitchen.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Good luck. Not personally something I would do, but I wish you the best in feeding the diet you feel is optimal. 

Lots of dogs do GREAT on raw, but do be careful what you read on the internet, and if there's any signs of blood in stool, vomiting, etc, don't hesitate to bring to vet and/or stop. I think a lot of times folks think magic is going to happen when you switch to raw, and sometimes it does, but... sometimes it doesn't, and things get written off as 'normal' when IMO they're not. 

Not trying to be a big debbie downer! But just wanted to post my thoughts.

Manna is kind of a bigger dog right? I'd probably just skip the pre-made stuff, as it's going to be super pricey, but I've always heard good things about Primal. Jackson didn't like it much tho, oddly enough when we tried it a few years back. He DID like the Natures Variety premade raw.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Good luck. Not personally something I would do, but I wish you the best in feeding the diet you feel is optimal.
> 
> Lots of dogs do GREAT on raw, but do be careful what you read on the internet, and if there's any signs of blood in stool, vomiting, etc, don't hesitate to bring to vet and/or stop. I think a lot of times folks think magic is going to happen when you switch to raw, and sometimes it does, but... sometimes it doesn't, and things get written off as 'normal' when IMO they're not.
> 
> ...


yeah we're just going to have a box of pre made for when we get lazy. Manna is currently 131.9 pounds of growing hyper fluff ball so I know she'll eat a lot.

She already gets a raw meal every week or 2 anyways, and Lilac is on raw for health reasons (literally saved her life) but she gets sick enough for the emerg vet every time she sneaks a dog kibble, so that's a big motivator for us.

Thanks for the luck, I also have a lot of support from a group in the local community and a few of Manna's park friends are on raw (including a Saint Bernard puppy who's momma is a vet), so I have local resources to help out outside of the internet.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

one meal at a time Flaming  I was so pathetic getting started for having so many openly against doing it,, all the fear tactics were so ingrained for so many years it was a hard move to follow through.. Several things made sense that raw was the right thing even though all the available pre computer documentation and vet advice said other wise.. The dogs very first raw was (1) chicken wing each lol.. I had wondered if they would all still be here come morning.. lol     Hugs and hang in there


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Turkey should be okay to start but chicken is a bit easier on the gut ime. Turkey can be very bone heavy so watch the stools for consistency.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Turkey is fine but I would put the legs and wings in the freezer for later and use the back and rib bones first. Even if Manna handles those tougher bones you may not be able to. They break into very sharp looking shards which are noisy but easily broken by dogs. Chicken leg bones are much less scary sounding. Oh, necks. If you can get necks they are perfect for starters, just have some boneless turkey meat ready in case she doesn't need the help to keep stool firm. I think necks are 40% bone and the usual starting out chicken is 30% bone plus necks are very lean with no skin on there.

Turkey liver isn't a good choice though. It is super high in vitamin A. I would use it but only for maybe 25% of the liver.

Max had a bit of irritation when bone was too low and there were small streaks of blood in his stool. More bone fixed it right up. Sort of counter intuitive, new to feeding raw people would think bone was poking his colon and causing this. Nope. 

I started out real slow too. Dogs got the giblets from whole chicken and turkey on occasion and a raw beef rib or pig foot weekly, Max got a chicken wing for dinner plus veggies and rice, dropped the rice, dropped the veggies and there we were - on raw! I didn't finish the kibble when I moved the dogs to fresh food, it was my safety net. After 6 months I finally tossed it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Gally said:


> Turkey should be okay to start but chicken is a bit easier on the gut ime. Turkey can be very bone heavy so watch the stools for consistency.


Yeah I was thinking on that anyway, she tends to have softer stool so I'm hoping that raw might harden her up. Plus with her approaching 18 months in a month I'm not as worried about her growth plates as they should be closing soon. I did ask her vet about raw and her only concern was the possibility of worms. She gave thumbs up of everything though.




Kathyy said:


> Turkey is fine but I would put the legs and wings in the freezer for later and use the back and rib bones first. Even if Manna handles those tougher bones you may not be able to. They break into very sharp looking shards which are noisy but easily broken by dogs. Chicken leg bones are much less scary sounding. Oh, necks. If you can get necks they are perfect for starters, just have some boneless turkey meat ready in case she doesn't need the help to keep stool firm. I think necks are 40% bone and the usual starting out chicken is 30% bone plus necks are very lean with no skin on there.
> 
> Turkey liver isn't a good choice though. It is super high in vitamin A. I would use it but only for maybe 25% of the liver.
> 
> ...


The last chicken leg she had, she swallowed whole, I posted a thread about it awhile back worried about it. She hasn't done that since though I would feel safer with larger pieces that she actually has to chew.
I didn't know that about turkey liver though, thanks for the heads up. 
Is cow liver still ok for the rest of the meal?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Yes, I want to feed some beef or lamb liver or the diet is likely low in copper. Early days, liver is in the future!


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

My best advice for going raw: slow slow slow! Don't be quick to transition to the next protein, don't be quick to start incorporating the organ meat. Slow and steady will be easiest on your puppers tummy. We really took our time transitioning Loki and we didn't have any kind of blow out poop/tummy wise. I think we may have had some probiotics on hand too, just in case (and canned pumpkin) Personally, we started with chicken quarters and skipped turkey altogether (he was never a fan). 

I'd also skip going with the premade stuff - with puppers our size (we have a 145 lb Great Dane), it's just not even fathomable to do premade. I also prefer to know exactly what's going into Loki's food, while the premade ratios could be either bone heavy, or even veggie/fruit heavy.

Good luck!


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Be aware that many stores add 'additives' to their meat....which then can upset the tummy...especially ground turkey (Jenny's) has additives...always check the fine print!
Winnco has additives in all their meats, chix, pork, beef....not a good place to buy raw meat for dogs or humans for that matter!

Sometimes they call it 'flavorings' too....


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Great point. The cheap turkey may be 'enhanced' for tenderness and to make it weigh more. Check the nutrition box for sodium content. Natural meat is less but we raw feeders settle for 100mg of sodium or less per serving and a serving is usually 3-4 ounces. I have seen 'enhanced' pork, chicken, turkey, fish and beef. No enhanced lamb - yet.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Thanks for the word 'enhanced' Kathyy...I couldn't think of it when I posted above!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

ok, I tend to buy spent Turkeys from the hutterites so I don't think those will be enhanced but I will ask about it anyways. Also I think I found a good lazy day back up for raw. Has anyone heard of "Mountain Dog Food" We have 2 places up here that sell the big blocks of raw, not in patty form so it's a bit cheaper, I just want to know if they are a good brand for days where I forget to prep something.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Good luck. It's not as scary as you think. We started Jewel on raw about 3 weeks-4 weeks ago.

She hasn't had any issues (other than some hard stool). So far we've done chicken quarters, duck necks, pork ribs, chicken giblets, and last night and tonight rainbow trout. We will be starting her on beef and organ next week. We only did duck necks and fish for a couple meals and it didn't affect her what so ever. 

We have been feeding her solely chicken for one meal and mixing up her second meal. Once she rotates through all the proteins, we will start slowly eliminating chicken from ther first meal.

I actually found that the 1-2 weeks per protein is an exaggeration, however; every dog reacts different. If anything, her stool has been overly hard.

Have fun with it!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

d_ray said:


> Good luck. It's not as scary as you think. We started Jewel on raw about 3 weeks-4 weeks ago.
> 
> She hasn't had any issues (other than some hard stool). So far we've done chicken quarters, duck necks, pork ribs, chicken giblets, and last night and tonight rainbow trout. We will be starting her on beef and organ next week. We only did duck necks and fish for a couple meals and it didn't affect her what so ever.
> 
> ...


I'm going to go slow but I'm not that worried about Manna's gut. It's practically made out of cast iron, unlike Lilac who'll vomit is she even sniffs cat kibble with grains in it. 
If I can switch a cat, then I can switch a dog. Especially if that dog is Mannanara (Seriously I've seen her eat some pretty weird things, nothing hurts her)


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

It is better to plan to go slow. So many hard core raw feeders think everybody and everybody's dogs are as tough as they are and just tough it through the transition. Some dogs have a rough time and some dog owners get really upset with any variation in stool consistency, mucus, blood tinge, bone fragment, cough, sniffle, burp, gas and so on. I think I am somewhere between. Not a fan of the mucus etc and modify the diet by +- bone/fat/food/organ but don't have to panic about it either. Of course I haven't been tested either, no explosive diarrhea here ever and dogs mostly will vomit on the tile rather than the carpet.

With Ginger I planned to take a week with chicken only, week with each protein and a week with each organ. That is 1+2+4=7 weeks. Not what happened. Kept a journal of this so I have dated emails on this, she came July 15 and was on all proteins with small amounts of all organs [a couple of different all in one grinds] by July 27 and had boneless days by the middle of September. Her first whole prey chicken was December 8.

Watch the poop. If things are going well then move on cautiously. The only issue I had with Ginger was even though it was summer it was a very cool summer and the dogs got walked twice a day. Turned out feeding after they walked and feeding twice a day meant poop would be dropped at home and wasn't be mucusy. The other issue was the whole prey chicken. Feathers make for poky poop, she hasn't repeated that mistake since and I have to feed boneless for days before and after and even for breakfast or she has horrible hard poop from all the chicken bone. These are small young layers that laid nice hard shelled eggs, guess the bones were well calcified!


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Mountain dog food is a good brand, I've used it myself and several of my clients use it  if you can get "perfectly raw" around you thats good too and you can buy it in bulk fairly economicly in either 16 2lb blocks or 8 4 lbs blocks for about $30. I feed partially premade, partially home made as well. Good luck!!!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

whole chickens 89c a pound today! Picking up as many as I can fit in my car! 

Lol


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Flaming said:


> whole chickens 89c a pound today! Picking up as many as I can fit in my car!
> 
> Lol


That's a sweet deal!!

I went to pick up meat for the cats today, and they ran out of chicken wings (like wtf?!?!) and that is usually what I use for bone... so they are getting duck wings this month... I am hoping it won't be too big for them. I wish I could get as great of a deal as you!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Miss Bugs said:


> Mountain dog food is a good brand, I've used it myself and several of my clients use it  if you can get "perfectly raw" around you thats good too and you can buy it in bulk fairly economicly in either 16 2lb blocks or* 8 4 lbs blocks for about $30*. I feed partially premade, partially home made as well. Good luck!!!


WOW!!!!!!! Well, where I was it was NOT that good of a price! If it had been I would have kept feeding that to Caeda! We did a short trial of it almost two years ago now but realized it was going to break us....that box for $30....where I was cost over $75 Canadian. I'm pretty sure it was the same brand. I find pre-made raw is pricey here too....not quite as bad, but we make less so still out of our price range. 

Anyway, good luck Flaming! I'm following this thread, wishing you lots of luck. Once we have a better idea of what is going on with Caeda being sick this morning we might be (again) considering going raw in the future. Keep us updated!!


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Really? Lol we use it in our homemade raw because is soooo much cheaper then anything we could find at a butcher or grocery store lol, some of the kinds are up to about $50 a box, but still much cheaper then anything else


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Personally, after trying damn near every dog food brand on the market; I've NEVER had the energy level or vibrance from any dog food versus what I have with feeding my guy Raw.

I will never resort back to kibble, of any kind; period. 

For us, RAW was the answer and the problem solver of the constant food intolerances and yeast issues.

With Rivers, if a dry food didn't agree with him, he didn't react like most dogs and have loose stools, etc. Rivers would actually experience what looked like *bad* headaches, low energy level, etc 

Only 2 foods on the market were *somewhat* working for him; Merrick Pork grain-free and Fromm's Surf/turf; but his hair remained dry on both; and on Merrick's, Rivers was developing the horrible *dog smell* not to mention his stools were HUGE!

I switched him to raw 8-9wks ago, and haven't looked back. 

DO watch for their stools getting too hard; the mistake I made with Rivers was feeding too much bone too long. For a newbie, yes, turkey necks are great to start with (but they can be a choking hazard for the gulper), I wouldn't feed *just* turkey necks alone for more then 3-4 days. 

After that one NEEDS to add in additional muscle meat - any meat without bone in it.

Start very slow; irregardless if one has a cast iron gut or not; as raw foods are higher in fat too. 

Safeway, a huge local chain store around these parts, has plenty of chicken that's not enhanced.

I will also say, some dogs that are allergic to *cooked* chicken, as in Rivers's case, CAN and do eat raw chicken without an issue. 

In cooked form, Rivers couldn't eat chicken period. In it's raw form, Rivers is doing great.

I do not feed bones every day now; with Rivers he did get blocked up pretty badly, even with adding muscle meat, the bone ratio was still too high for him. Not every dog will be the same; but he only gets bone 2-3 times a week for one meal now.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

1 more day of kibble left in the container, putting meals into the fridge now to defrost. Wish us luck tomorrow. First meal is a chicken.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Good luck, you will do great and your dog will have very positive changes!!!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

found fish heads and pig kidneys on sale, apparently people like to stare at you funny when you buy them. 

I'm going to freeze them for later after Manna is settled on chicken, and I done quick math. I'm saving $5 a week feeding raw.



Edit: are kidney and brain considered organ?


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

You get used to the weird looks lol. I often buy all my organ and "odd" pieces of meat in one shopping trip. A whole basket full of dog meat and nothing else. I get some really odd looks from the cashiers!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Also when you buy 8 pork roasts at once. 

Yes, brain and kidney are organs, other organs. Feed half liver and the other half kidney/spleen/brain/thymus/eye/gonad/?


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Thanks

I tend to get weird looks anyways so the more the merrier


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Just wanted to add good luck! I switched mine to raw in January this year after spending probably close to a year researching and going back and forth about actually switching. I had a LOT of "last" bags of kibble. They have both been doing really awesome on raw. A random person the other day commented on how incredibly shiny Zoey was. And gone is her chronic soft poop! I was very very nervous about switching so I started them on a ground product but have now been comfortable enough to start adding more whole stuff and can't believe how nervous I was about it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There is ONE market in Sioux Falls that has weird stuff like kidneys and brains and all that. So I'm sure they're used to people coming in just to buy them. But probably mostly people from other countries. So I do get some odd looks. And then the clerk asks me what I do with pork kidneys and chicken feet. So I'm like. . .um. . .I use the kidneys to make homemade cat food and the dogs get the chicken feet. . .I think they wish they didn't ask, LOL. 

I haven't bought the pork brains yet (obviously they can't sell beef brain). They're in a white tub so I don't know what they look like, or smell like. Not sure if they'd make me gag or not. Have to work up some courage for that .


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Willowy said:


> There is ONE market in Sioux Falls that has weird stuff like kidneys and brains and all that. So I'm sure they're used to people coming in just to buy them. But probably mostly people from other countries. So I do get some odd looks. And then the clerk asks me what I do with pork kidneys and chicken feet. So I'm like. . .um. . .I use the kidneys to make homemade cat food and the dogs get the chicken feet. . .I think they wish they didn't ask, LOL.
> 
> I haven't bought the pork brains yet (obviously they can't sell beef brain). They're in a white tub so I don't know what they look like, or smell like. Not sure if they'd make me gag or not. Have to work up some courage for that .


 No one asked anything, nut I have a feeling that the cashier was too afraid to ask. Especially the kidney and fish heads.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Have you started yet? I'm curious to read your progress.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

a freezer full of meat but this bag of food is lasting a bit longer than normal.
I figure we might have 2 more days until the kibble runs out then I'm tossing a chicken at her.

since we are switching to raw, what can I stuff kongs with? She sensitive to peanut butter so that's a no go, and I need something difficult to get out because she's becoming a pro with them.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Ground meat, then freeze it!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Sparkles123 said:


> Ground meat, then freeze it!


She tends to savor them though
I would be afraid of them going bad


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

If you're still interested in pre-made raw, we found that Carnivora was reasonably priced, 4lbs of all-meat beef mix (patties) for $10-12.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> If you're still interested in pre-made raw, we found that Carnivora was reasonably priced, 4lbs of all-meat beef mix (patties) for $10-12.


yeah we currently feed Lilac carnivora. Wow I need to start travelling south to buy things, 4 lbs of pattis here is $19-$21 and Manna would be eating 3lbs a day...can't justify carnavora for Manna.



Sparkles123 said:


> Ground meat, then freeze it!


would cooked ground meat and either melty cheese or yogurt work?


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

well looks like tonights bowl is going to be the last of the kibble. 1/2 a chicken tomorrow morning

last kibble meal, we're all out


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Please keep us posted about her progress.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

She'll need about 3 pounds a day, this chicken is ~1 1/2 pounds. She gets it in about an hour though she was very interested when I was defrosting it so I had to gate her out of the kitchen (you could tell that she wanted to counter surf sooo badly.)




edit:
well my husband wanted me to feed her outside because of sanitary reasons (I'll work on that) but it's a good thing I did and I wish I would have brought my camera with us.

The chicken turned into a flying chicken clear across the yard, Manna stalked, hunted and killed it at least 3 times before starting to eat the now very ragged dirty chicken. 
Hilarious to watch but she's picking at it now.

Yes I'll work on that response as well



edit: there is now a chicken leg under the bbq and a wing on top of the bbq lid. She's having more fun with this chicken than any on her toys have ever been.

edit: after 20 minutes she lost interest and only ate the top 1/2 of the chicken. I bagged and refrigerated the other 1/2 for later tonight. Is that safe? There's not much dirt on it as the yard is mostly snow. also if he's only eating around 3/4 a pound a meal, that's a lot smaller than I had predicted. Unless of course she wants to eat more at night and change that.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

ok the 3rd meal in and she's still eating only about 1/2 of what I calculated but not really acting sick otherwise. Her poop became a little softer though,still formed but weird. Smaller too but she's after eating less. 
It's just a wait and see if she'll start to eat more right?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Giant breed dogs often eat less than 2% of their body weight but some of that is because they tend to not be as active as smaller dogs which sure doesn't apply in her case. Unless she gets really skinny it is fine.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Don't worry about refrigerating partially eaten meals. You can even refreeze their meat if needed. Her appetite will probably improve over the next week when she A. Gets used to how to eat whole raw and B. She realizes nothing else is coming for food.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> Giant breed dogs often eat less than 2% of their body weight but some of that is because they tend to not be as active as smaller dogs which sure doesn't apply in her case. Unless she gets really skinny it is fine.





Gally said:


> Don't worry about refrigerating partially eaten meals. You can even refreeze their meat if needed. Her appetite will probably improve over the next week when she A. Gets used to how to eat whole raw and B. She realizes nothing else is coming for food.


she's 135# that means she's eating about 1.1% of her body weight. If she was eating closer to 2% I wouldn't be as worried, she's always been skinny though and didn't eat much on kibble either so I'm still on for the wait and see game. 
We went on a 2 1/2 hour hike today before supper and she's currently refusing treats (well a bully stick) after her meal (0.75 # of chicken)

On another note for the future, how important is green tripe? I may have found a source of it but it's pretty expensive.


Edit: 2 days later and she's eating 3# a day and can finish a whole chicken in 20 minutes.


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