# Maltese Pregnancy!!! :)



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Hello, I have a 3 year old maltese that is 6 weeks pregnant!! I'm so excited! :whoo:The first pic is her at 4 1/2 weeks, the second pic was her at 5 weeks, and the third pic is her at 6 weeks.*


----------



## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Some questions:
What health testing has she had done?
What health testing has the sire had?

Do you have homes lined up for the pups?

What qualities does your dog have that makes her a breeding candidate?

This forum does not condone irresponsible breeding.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

**watching pandora's box open*

Maltese mom, unless you are an experienced or mentored breeder who has responsibly done all the prerequisite testing and has done the same for the sire, you are in for an unpleasant shock here on the forums. We have several breeders that post here in the forums that are respected for their dedication to the health, temperament and showing of their dogs, the rest, many who are basically backyard breeders can really get blasted. Just giving you the head's up.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*I understand that. She has had all of her health tests as well as the stud. I did brucellosis and thyroid testing. I also did evaluations on both. I talked with my vet and had him check on genetics of her and the stud to make sure they have a good and healthy litter.*


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Good to hear!
btw, that Olivia is pretty dang cute!


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Well I appreciate that. But I am doing the right thing and do not need to be criticised because I know I am not a BYB. Anyone can believe so, but what matters is I know so. I have a wonderful maltese and know a great stud and both have been checked and well taken care of before I even made arrangements for this pregnancy.*

*Thank you!*


----------



## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

Please understand that far too often people breed because they can make money, they want an offspring of their "wonderful" female or because puppies are so cute. Often they end up here asking questions they should have researched prior to breeding or things they needed to learn prior to breeding or things they needed to do and have in place prior to breeding. So those that truely care about their dog(s) & the breed are not near as common as the BYB here. We are simply protective of your dog & future puppies when we do not even know her.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*I want to appreciate you being honest. But that is not what I am doing. I do care about my dog and her breed. It is not for a profit what so ever. My friends and family are wanting one and have before I even decided to go through with this. The amount I will be getting, wont even be close to all the tests I've done!*


----------



## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

How wonderful! This is such a pleasant change from all the recent BYBers we seem to be attracting! Hats off to you and your beautiful Maltese! Do understand that no one means to be harsh, unfortunately we get a lot of people who bypass all the hard work responsible owners like yourself have to do! Welcome to the DF I hope you enjoy it, and congrats on your upcoming litter!


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Well thank you!! I'm definaitely against all BYB because of the non care for their dogs and their puppies. It's really sad to see. I understand people are some what harsh because they want to make sure I'm not another one out there. I wouldn't want to see anymore out there either!! *


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

From http://www.heroswaggintrain.com/bybreed_pm_book.htm



> The Backyard Breeders' and Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses
> © Denna Pace 2001
> 1. When called on bad breeding practices, ALWAYS claim that you are merely an innocent posting as a favor to a friend or family member.
> 
> ...


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*That is very good information and should be read thoroughly!*


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Don't wont a breader that has xoxo in her user name.

Ugh.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Red I think that's a little premature. Maltesemom has had all the right "passwords" so far, I for one am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. You know the truth will come out if she hasn't done what she says she's done, and then we'll all have a good flame war and go on out merry. Yes, "had all her health tests" could be ambiguous, but I still think that list is jumping the gun a bit.



surftb15 said:


> Don't wont a breader that has xoxo in her user name.
> 
> Ugh.


LOL, well, toy breeds.  The main thing that keeps me from looking at Papillon breeders is kennel names tend toward the saccharine.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*I don't understand. I will be criticized just because I have xoxo? All that is is a username and it's not right to judge someone because of that. To me xoxo means love..it reminds me of my daughter because she says that to me a lot and it's really cute. I figured I'd have that on my username by it showing my love towards my maltese.*


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> LOL, well, toy breeds.  The main thing that keeps me from looking at Papillon breeders is kennel names tend toward the saccharine.


Haha, good point.


----------



## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> Red I think that's a little premature. Maltesemom has had all the right "passwords" so far, I for one am willing to give her the benefit of the doubt. You know the truth will come out if she hasn't done what she says she's done, and then we'll all have a good flame war and go on out merry. Yes, "had all her health tests" could be ambiguous, but I still think that list is jumping the gun a bit.


I just would like to know what health test exactly your pups were tested, I'm not talking about Thyroid and brucellosis, I mean the health testing. Once I get those then I'll judge. 

Sorry, when a breeder comes on here, they have to prove themselves, so much more as a new member. We just want to know who we are dealing with.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> LOL, well, toy breeds.  The main thing that keeps me from looking at Papillon breeders is kennel names tend toward the saccharine.


 I don't think either of the kennels mine came from do... All the big ones I can think of don't... Denzel, Loteki, etc etc...

anyways, for one I'd love to see pics when they're born.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Raegan, thank you for giving me a chance and not "jumping the gun". That's all I'm asking for. Some people tend to be so quick to respond negatively because they don't want to take the time to actually know someone.*

*Thanks! I will. By the way, very gorgeous Papillon! *


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> I just would like to know what health test exactly your pups were tested, I'm not talking about Thyroid and brucellosis, I mean the health testing. Once I get those then I'll judge.
> 
> Sorry, when a breeder comes on here, they have to prove themselves, so much more as a new member. We just want to know who we are dealing with.


I agree, I personally prefer to hold judgement until I have the whole story. I too would like to hear what kinds of health testing you've had done both on the dam and the sire. Also, what are you goals and reasons for breeding this litter?

I hope you understand why we're so concerned. We absolutely LOVE dogs, and it's quite heartbreaking to see BYBs posting about their irresponsible breeding practices. And there are a LOT of BYBs that come and post here.


----------



## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Raegan, thank you for giving me a chance and not "jumping the gun". That's all I'm asking for. Some people tend to be so quick to respond negatively because they don't want to take the time to actually know someone.*
> 
> *Thanks! I will. By the way, very gorgeous Papillon! *




Everyone is just protective of the term "breeder", its like saying you put a bandaid on your child's knee and now you call yourself a doctor. This forum is BIG in to rescues and for those that are breeders they do health testing that includes joint, eye, heart & lab tests/xrays just to start with, and majority of them show their lines so & protect the breed of choice. 

Don't feel bad by the comments, folks are just, UNDERSTANDABLY, protective of animals and try to keep any dogs from being put down in shelters than should be by poor breeding practices. I have received my own critisms for my pet choices - one came from a pet store (before I knew better but would never give her up for anything now) and the other is a "fake" australian shepherd, our Skyler is a "mini" aussie which is not yet (but in process) of being recognized by AKC. Just take the lumps and know there is so much to learn here and the folks really are very nice & compassionate....and passionate.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Raegan, thank you for giving me a chance and not "jumping the gun". That's all I'm asking for. Some people tend to be so quick to respond negatively because they don't want to take the time to actually know someone.*
> 
> *Thanks! I will. By the way, very gorgeous Papillon! *


Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm _withholding_ judgement. You don't have a "pass" from me. 

I want to see:
Health tests
Why'd you pick THIS stud out of all the Maltese in the world?


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I hope you really are a breeder who has done everything right. I have heard too many people who, when asked about health testing, say oh yes, my vet examined them and they're healthy. Obviously, they have no clue


----------



## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

Welcome to DF! I hope all goes well with the pregnancy & future pups!


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Yep, so much more involved then that.

What are your plans for finding the puppies homes?

I know your Matlese is cute, bUt that seems to be the deciding factor on why you bred the dog.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Actually I have all homes lined up. I am going to do a wellness check of the homes later this week and I am going to make sure they have a great understanding about the breed. So there will be many questions asked.*

*Thank you.*

*Yes that's right. They do do that. There is way more involved then having them examined! The complete reproductive tract needs to be well examined with tests and labratory tests included for female and stud.*


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

surftb15 said:


> Don't wont a breader that has xoxo in her user name.
> 
> Ugh.


I think that's a little harsh, as long as the breeder is being responsible it really doesn't matter WHAT her forum handle is. Oh and it's BREEDER, not BREADER.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Raegan, thank you for giving me a chance and not "jumping the gun". That's all I'm asking for. Some people tend to be so quick to respond negatively because they don't want to take the time to actually know someone.*
> 
> *Thanks! I will. By the way, very gorgeous Papillon! *


It's not that we don't want to get to know a person, it's that 95% of the people that come here with pregnant dogs are BYBs and we don't want to waste our time arguing with them when they obviously don't care. We just want to know you're doing it right and for you to prove yourself so that we CAN take the time to get to know you and support your program.



maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Actually I have all homes lined up. I am going to do a wellness check of the homes later this week and I am going to make sure they have a great understanding about the breed. So there will be many questions asked.*
> 
> *Thank you.*
> 
> *Yes that's right. They do do that. There is way more involved then having them examined! The complete reproductive tract needs to be well examined with tests and labratory tests included for female and stud.*


...You're still kind of avoiding questions. Which tests did you have done and what's your goal for the program? I've never talked to a small breed breeder before, so I'm very interested. 

(WELCOME! )


----------



## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

If you want people to think you are a good breeder could you please tell us a few things;

1) Why do you think your female is suitable for breeding?

2) Why do you want to breed her?

3) Why did you pick this male?

4) What health tests have you had done exactly and how did the parents score?

5) What are the parents pedigrees?

6) How old is the female?

If you could please answer these questions that would be great, if you continue to avoid them I will think you are a BYB


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Well thank you!! I'm definaitely against all BYB because of the non care for their dogs and their puppies. It's really sad to see. I understand people are some what harsh because they want to make sure I'm not another one out there. I wouldn't want to see anymore out there either!! *


I don't consider someone a BYB because they don't take care of their dogs. Those who breed and fail to provide basic care for their dogs/puppies is what I consider trash  The term BYB is so black and white it's almost impossible to define. However, I'm hoping the vet checked the dogs for patella problems, and do maltese need BAER or CERF certifications?

LOL, well, toy breeds. The main thing that keeps me from looking at Papillon breeders is kennel names tend toward the saccharine. 

*No way  I think you'd do awesome with a pap *



maltesemomxoxo said:


> *I want to appreciate you being honest. But that is not what I am doing. I do care about my dog and her breed. It is not for a profit what so ever. My friends and family are wanting one and have before I even decided to go through with this. The amount I will be getting, wont even be close to all the tests I've done!*


Don't take this the wrong way, but you do realize petfinder and shelters and rescues and dog pounds have maltese in their care, along with tons of maltese doodle-oodle look alikes, right?
Anyway, good luck with the pregnancy. I have always shied away from breeding because of the potential C-sections. Ever since I saw a C-section on a Dogue de Bordeaux, I knew breeding wasn't for me (she delivered 11 healthy pups, 2 dead. It was...messy.)


----------



## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

Everyone who joins this forum joins because they are good responsible dog owners - God forbid anyone should join because they want to _*learn*_ how to be a good responsible dog owner - yike, that might be asking a little much!


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And whenever anyone involved in rescue complains about overpopulation, it's all "nooo, there's no overpopulation! We need more breeders not less!". If that's true, we need BYBs, as long as they care about their dogs and take proper care of them. So I dunno. People are fickle.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Locke said:


> Some questions:
> What health testing has she had done?
> What health testing has the sire had?
> 
> ...


Sorry, but how specific do I need to be? My vet has done genetic testing on the female and stud, (eye infections, luxating patella, hypoglycemia, dental diseases since toy breeds are prone to them!) I had acid bile tests done and white blood count tests. I also had CERF, OFA Brucellosis and Thyroid. They were both cleared by my vet. Yes, I do have homes lined up for the pups which will be screened and they need to know about the breed!



DJsMom said:


> Everyone who joins this forum joins because they are good responsible dog owners - God forbid anyone should join because they want to _*learn*_ how to be a good responsible dog owner - yike, that might be asking a little much!


I am definitely not asking for information! I am simply just posting my maltese pregnancy on here so I can share the excitement with others.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I don't consider someone a BYB because they don't take care of their dogs. Those who breed and fail to provide basic care for their dogs/puppies is what I consider trash  The term BYB is so black and white it's almost impossible to define. However, I'm hoping the vet checked the dogs for patella problems, and do maltese need BAER or CERF certifications?
> 
> Please see above post.
> 
> ...


Yes, I do know about the shelters very well. Thanks



Nargle said:


> I agree, I personally prefer to hold judgement until I have the whole story. I too would like to hear what kinds of health testing you've had done both on the dam and the sire. Also, what are you goals and reasons for breeding this litter?
> 
> I hope you understand why we're so concerned. We absolutely LOVE dogs, and it's quite heartbreaking to see BYBs posting about their irresponsible breeding practices. And there are a LOT of BYBs that come and post here.


I do understand and I have posted an answer to your question. 



DJEtzel said:


> It's not that we don't want to get to know a person, it's that 95% of the people that come here with pregnant dogs are BYBs and we don't want to waste our time arguing with them when they obviously don't care. We just want to know you're doing it right and for you to prove yourself so that we CAN take the time to get to know you and support your program.
> Sorry for not responding sooner. I do have a family to take care..lol. I can't be on here all the time..but hopefully I already answered your question above.
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry for not responding sooner. I do have a family to take care..lol. I can't be on here all the time..but hopefully I already answered your question above.



cshellenberger said:


> I think that's a little harsh, as long as the breeder is being responsible it really doesn't matter WHAT her forum handle is. Oh and it's BREEDER, not BREADER.


Thank you very much.


----------



## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> LOL, well, toy breeds.  The main thing that keeps me from looking at Papillon breeders is kennel names tend toward the saccharine.


I don't actually know any Pap breeder's with names like that! O_O Breeders around here Zenzero, Nicomen, Flinters, Arkeno, Mawenpaw, etc. It's strange that you noticed that!

Maltesemomxoxo,

we are just really concerned about people breeding their lovely pets for more dogs because of the overpopulation and amount of dogs killed in shelters. Most of us here believe if your dogs are not titled in something (conformation, trialing, schutzhund, hunting, etc.) they are probably not worth breeding.

I'm not going to judge you but I don't take breeding lightly. I love my own dog and I think she's great, she even has more than 30 Champions in her pedigree but since I'm not showing her or proving her in any way I am definitely not going to breed her no matter how sweet and perfect she may seem. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying sometimes you really have to think long and hard on breeding decisions.

Edit: I have no idea why she's being criticized by the xoxo in her screen name, I think that's absurd and has nothing to do with her breeding decisions whatsoever.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Sounds like you have the testing covered.

Do you show your dogs? Do you train obedience or any other sport? 

What about the stud and the bitch make you think they will produce outstanding offspring that will be an improvement on both dogs? Are both dogs titled??? Just curious.....


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> Sorry, but how specific do I need to be? My vet has done genetic testing on the female and stud, (eye infections, luxating patella, hypoglycemia, dental diseases since toy breeds are prone to them!) I had acid bile tests done and white blood count tests. I also had CERF, OFA Brucellosis and Thyroid. They were both cleared by my vet. Yes, I do have homes lined up for the pups which will be screened and they need to know about the breed!


Sounds like you've got your bases covered! Good luck with the pups, when are they due?


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I don't actually know any Pap breeder's with names like that! O_O Breeders around here Zenzero, Nicomen, Flinters, Arkeno, Mawenpaw, etc. It's strange that you noticed that!


It was really more of a one-off joke. Paps are my no means the worst, but I've seen a couple that are just... not my thing.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> Sorry, but how specific do I need to be? My vet has done genetic testing on the female and stud, (eye infections, luxating patella, hypoglycemia, dental diseases since toy breeds are prone to them!) I had acid bile tests done and white blood count tests. I also had CERF, OFA Brucellosis and Thyroid. They were both cleared by my vet. Yes, I do have homes lined up for the pups which will be screened and they need to know about the breed!


You need to realize that tons of people come here with pregnant dogs saying they're a great breeder and end up not being one because they don't show or health test, or one of the two. If you want our respect, you need to prove yourself or we will assume the worse. You should know that being a breeder is a big stigma to uphold. We have no problem supporting and being friends with breeders who do it right, but we won't know until you answer all the right questions. You did answer most. Do you show, too?


----------



## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

Sometimes it's possible to question peoples meaning and methods politly, and get the answers you want to know. Just by reading the title I knew what to expect before entering. 

On topic: look at that belly!


----------



## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> I am definitely not asking for information! I am simply just posting my maltese pregnancy on here so I can share the excitement with others.


Actually I was being fasticious with my comment - not aimed toward you. Some times I think a lot of people on DF forget that many people don't know all there is to know about all things dog when they join here. There are no tests you have to pass before being allowed to join this public forum & you shouldn't have to explain yourself to anyone, except perhaps admin & mods. When I joined I loved dogs dearly but it wasn't long before I realized I didn't know a whole lot. 

I sure didn't know much about responsible breeding! 

And it is beginning to sound as tho you know more about responsible breeding than I thought. Which is very good - I'm glad that perhaps people here wont feel the need to run you off the forum before giving you the opportunity to learn about responsible breeding, as it sounds like you already know quite a bit about it.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

tw1n said:


> On topic: look at that belly!


Speaking of that! Maltesemom, it looks like you shaved it, is that for a purpose like ultrasound or prepping for possible C-section or what? I don't see many pregnant dogs so I'm not really sure, but I assume you didn't just do that for looks, right? hehe.


----------



## tw1n (May 12, 2009)

surftb15 said:


> Don't wont a breader that has xoxo in her user name.
> 
> Ugh.


 Is it fair to assume that based on your user name and grammar, that all I should expect from you is a surfboard and possibly some illegal narcotics? Or is it possible i shouldn't base my opinion on a forum user name?



DJEtzel said:


> Speaking of that! Maltesemom, it looks like you shaved it, is that for a purpose like ultrasound or prepping for possible C-section or what? I don't see many pregnant dogs so I'm not really sure, but I assume you didn't just do that for looks, right? hehe.


 I actually was wondering the same thing. I don't know much about pregnant dogs. Is there a purposes? I imagine ultrasounds would need bare skin.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

The thing is, there's more than 'just' health that makes a breeder 'responsible' and a breeding a 'good idea'. There are plenty of healthy purebred dogs out there, but that doesn't make them good representatives of the breed. Breeding dogs is a huge responsibility. You are contributing to a gene pool that will carry on the heritage and overall make up of an entire breed. Does your bitch have the attributes to contribute to the genetic makeup of the Maltese breed? (this isn't a 'she's cute and adorable, and we love her, and think she's beautiful question)... what proof do you have that she is. No breeder--I repeat--NO BREEDER, not even the best, most responsible, and experienced breeder in the world is capable of judging that purely on their own opinion. That is not because they aren't good at it. It is because of a phenomenon known as 'kennel blindness'. You LOVE your dogs. They love their dogs. They spend a lot of time and money making them the best they can and if they spend all their time looking only at them, they begin to see them as amazing representatives of the breed. LOL It's natural and common. You need to get out there and compare them to other dogs of the same breed who are top quality as well to see if they stand up. That is why there are breed shows. Because you need outside, EXPERIENCED, eyes to look over your dog and compare it to others of top quality in the breed to determine how she stacks up.

Does she have other attributes that make her a top candidate for breeding? In the Maltese world those are pretty limited because Maltese are basically 'looks' dogs, not really bred specifically for a 'job', however if you say she's a top level obedience competitor with High In Trial scores, or a MACH level agility competitor okay, I'll buy that as long as her overall composition is in line with a Maltese including coat, body type and temperament.

What about the sire? You still have never addressed why you selected the particular dog. Not just 'he's a good Maltese' or 'he's nice', was it because he was close? Cheap? What else does he have? Show records? Performance records? Previous off-spring with outstanding records? He might, but you haven't offered any of that information even though you were asked repeatedly.

Also, even though I've gone a bit into what ELSE is important in making a responsible breeding, you really aren't all that convincing (to me anyway) on your health testing answers. Anyone, after much pressure (as here) can do a little research online to find out what the tests 'should have been' and say they did them. What were the results... the EXACT results. Yes, you should have to be so specific for three reasons: one, you have, unfortunately a lot to prove to show you are not a BYB, and two, because you kind of hedged around on the questions to begin with, and still haven't produced any other reason the breeding is a good, well-thought out one. And finally the third reason, because you should ALWAYS be prepared to tell puppy buyers exactly what the testing that was done and results were... EXACTLY. Don't bother with 'the vet passed her' that is NOT an answer. YOU would have all of the testing results, and SHOULD fully understand what the results are on them, and what they mean. If you don't have them, you're lying about doing them. If you don't understand what you do have, you are still not ready to contemplate a breeding.

Yes, your dog is adorable, at least from the belly shots, it's pretty hard to see anything else about her,and she may be the best Maltese companion on the planet, and your friends and family may adore her and 'want one just like her' but that's NOT a good reason to breed.


----------



## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Papilove said:


> The thing is, there's more than 'just' health that makes a breeder 'responsible' and a breeding a 'good idea'. There are plenty of healthy purebred dogs out there, but that doesn't make them good representatives of the breed. Breeding dogs is a huge responsibility. You are contributing to a gene pool that will carry on the heritage and overall make up of an entire breed. Does your bitch have the attributes to contribute to the genetic makeup of the Maltese breed? (this isn't a 'she's cute and adorable, and we love her, and think she's beautiful question)... what proof do you have that she is. No breeder--I repeat--NO BREEDER, not even the best, most responsible, and experienced breeder in the world is capable of judging that purely on their own opinion. That is not because they aren't good at it. It is because of a phenomenon known as 'kennel blindness'. You LOVE your dogs. They love their dogs. They spend a lot of time and money making them the best they can and if they spend all their time looking only at them, they begin to see them as amazing representatives of the breed. LOL It's natural and common. You need to get out there and compare them to other dogs of the same breed who are top quality as well to see if they stand up. That is why there are breed shows. Because you need outside, EXPERIENCED, eyes to look over your dog and compare it to others of top quality in the breed to determine how she stacks up.
> 
> Does she have other attributes that make her a top candidate for breeding? In the Maltese world those are pretty limited because Maltese are basically 'looks' dogs, not really bred specifically for a 'job', however if you say she's a top level obedience competitor with High In Trial scores, or a MACH level agility competitor okay, I'll buy that as long as her overall composition is in line with a Maltese including coat, body type and temperament.
> 
> ...


:clap2::clap2::clap2:


----------



## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Papilove said:


> The thing is, there's more than 'just' health that makes a breeder 'responsible' and a breeding a 'good idea'. There are plenty of healthy purebred dogs out there, but that doesn't make them good representatives of the breed. Breeding dogs is a huge responsibility. You are contributing to a gene pool that will carry on the heritage and overall make up of an entire breed. Does your bitch have the attributes to contribute to the genetic makeup of the Maltese breed? (this isn't a 'she's cute and adorable, and we love her, and think she's beautiful question)... what proof do you have that she is. No breeder--I repeat--NO BREEDER, not even the best, most responsible, and experienced breeder in the world is capable of judging that purely on their own opinion. That is not because they aren't good at it. It is because of a phenomenon known as 'kennel blindness'. You LOVE your dogs. They love their dogs. They spend a lot of time and money making them the best they can and if they spend all their time looking only at them, they begin to see them as amazing representatives of the breed. LOL It's natural and common. You need to get out there and compare them to other dogs of the same breed who are top quality as well to see if they stand up. That is why there are breed shows. Because you need outside, EXPERIENCED, eyes to look over your dog and compare it to others of top quality in the breed to determine how she stacks up.
> 
> Does she have other attributes that make her a top candidate for breeding? In the Maltese world those are pretty limited because Maltese are basically 'looks' dogs, not really bred specifically for a 'job', however if you say she's a top level obedience competitor with High In Trial scores, or a MACH level agility competitor okay, I'll buy that as long as her overall composition is in line with a Maltese including coat, body type and temperament.
> 
> ...


Brilliant post!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> it looks like you shaved it, is that for a purpose like ultrasound or prepping for possible C-section or what?


Longhaired breeds/breeds with a lot of coat are shaved down so puppies can get to the nipples easily. It's very hard for newborn puppies to fight through a ton of coat to get to their food source.

It also prevents mats in mama dog (From leaky nipples, spit, etc). I've watched a couple of Samoyeds give birth, and their tails are wrapped up to prevent them from becoming gross and all stained.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Longhaired breeds/breeds with a lot of coat are shaved down so puppies can get to the nipples easily. It's very hard for newborn puppies to fight through a ton of coat to get to their food source.
> 
> It also prevents mats in mama dog (From leaky nipples, spit, etc). I've watched a couple of Samoyeds give birth, and their tails are wrapped up to prevent them from becoming gross and all stained.


Aaah, makes sense. Thanks.


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> * My friends and family are wanting one and have before I even decided to go through with this.*


Personally I think that's a terrible, terrible reason to breed and in MHO your maltese should have been spayed long ago. That would have prevented the crazy idea of breeding so aunt mary or cousin Jessie could have one "just like her".

If your friends and family seriously wanted a dog they could have researched and gone to a responsible breeder to purchase one, maybe even the one where you purchased yours? Or adopted one of the many at the local shelter.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

While it does sound like proper health testing has been done, I have to admit that I'm not sold on this being a great Maltese litter.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

If one has done the proper health testing, one only needs to post a link as verification.

Any person making good breeding choices can tell you immediately, without defensiveness or rancor, WHY the breeding was done, WHY the breeding partners match and complement each other, WHAT they hope to correct, what they hope to improve, and what they expect to see in the puppies.

Sorry to say, but after all the time I have spent in dogs, I knew what would be in this thread before I ever opened it the first time. My earlier post still stands.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I just love when people post on here that they're breeding their dogs. It's almost always entertaining.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

If your dog and the sire are not titled, and will be bettering the breed, you are a BYB.


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

Xeph said:


> While it does sound like proper health testing has been done, I have to admit that I'm not sold on this being a great Maltese litter.


Actually several posts contained exactly which tests should have been done. It probably would have been better not to give out that information so freely.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It's not hard for her to prove it, though, if she actually did the testing. Redyre proved herself with a single link.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It probably would have been better not to give out that information so freely.


Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, I'm still not sold on this beign a great Maltese litter.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

hulkamaniac said:


> I just love when people post on here that they're breeding their dogs. It's almost always entertaining.


 *Anyone can believe what they want. I can't sit here forever debating what I am doing with my dog. I am posting a thread on my maltese pregnancy and that's it. I am sorry if I am knowing showing enough information, but I'm really doing my best. *

*It wasn't that they wanted one "just like her". It's because they starting seeing how great of a breed maltese are. And if they had the choice, they would of wanted to get one from someone that they truly trust and have known for years. I don't understand why just because someone says that they are giving them to friends and family that they believe that person is a BYB?? Isn't it better to give your puppies to people who you really know, and know that you can always see them as they grow? To me that shows the person cares very well. I personally feel more comfortable giving them to people I know and trust.*



tw1n said:


> Is it fair to assume that based on your user name and grammar, that all I should expect from you is a surfboard and possibly some illegal narcotics? Or is it possible i shouldn't base my opinion on a forum user name?
> 
> 
> I actually was wondering the same thing. I don't know much about pregnant dogs. Is there a purposes? I imagine ultrasounds would need bare skin.


 *Yes, it is pretty much a maternity haircut. It is to help the puppies nurse with any hair on the tummy. They do lose most hair on their own, but she is also shaved around the vulva and anus of her longer hair. The puppies can be easily tangled in the hair and strangled. So it's in the puppies best interest to shave the mom.*

*They are both AKC with the mom having generations of champions.*



DJsMom said:


> Actually I was being fasticious with my comment - not aimed toward you. Some times I think a lot of people on DF forget that many people don't know all there is to know about all things dog when they join here. There are no tests you have to pass before being allowed to join this public forum & you shouldn't have to explain yourself to anyone, except perhaps admin & mods. When I joined I loved dogs dearly but it wasn't long before I realized I didn't know a whole lot.
> 
> I sure didn't know much about responsible breeding!
> 
> And it is beginning to sound as tho you know more about responsible breeding than I thought. Which is very good - I'm glad that perhaps people here wont feel the need to run you off the forum before giving you the opportunity to learn about responsible breeding, as it sounds like you already know quite a bit about it.


Well I am still having to prove myself..I understand where everyone is coming from, but I really don't think I should have to give out every personal information about the breeding. I have given enough that should show that I am not a BYB. But for me to give scores and the whole generation, I might as well send each person a copy of the paperwork and results from my vet! That is kind of personal because once I do that, then I'm sure others will find more to judge me about. No matter if everything was close to perfect, I'm sure someone can come up with something. It's either you can believe me from my information I gave you, or don't believe me at all.



DJEtzel said:


> You need to realize that tons of people come here with pregnant dogs saying they're a great breeder and end up not being one because they don't show or health test, or one of the two. If you want our respect, you need to prove yourself or we will assume the worse. You should know that being a breeder is a big stigma to uphold. We have no problem supporting and being friends with breeders who do it right, but we won't know until you answer all the right questions. You did answer most. Do you show, too?


 No, I do not show. When I first got my maltese..it was a plan for me and I was actually interested in it, but I decided to breed her.



tw1n said:


> Sometimes it's possible to question peoples meaning and methods politly, and get the answers you want to know. Just by reading the title I knew what to expect before entering.
> 
> On topic: look at that belly!


HAHA!! I know!



LazyGRanch713 said:


> Sounds like you've got your bases covered! Good luck with the pups, when are they due?


 They are due anywhere from Nov.12-Nov.18. Since this is her first little it will be real exciting! I've been keeping a daily log since her first day in heat till now. And it is so surprising on how much she changed in symptoms and everything.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

I'm sorry maltesemomxoxo but every 'explanation/excuse' you gave above screams BYB. It's true, as DJsmom said that, of course not every one that comes here breeding dogs, or wanting to, knows as much as they should to be a breeder: there's no sin in that. However, there are some painful truths in life, some that are not fun to hear, especially when it shows you are not doing things right. Instead of being defensive, and learning, you insist you are not doing things wrong, and simply should not be pressed to do what ANY RESPONSIBLE breeder should be able to do/want to do/MUST do when ANYONE asks. Read Redyre's post on the excuses of a BYB again and then look at your own responses to all the posts. If you're honest, at least with yourself, you will learn, and understand you have to change the way you are thinking, and should be very careful with these puppies, and placing them, AND not continue in the same path again. As for champions in the pedigree, it doesn't matter how many there are in the background. That's a 'start' but no where near the finish line. Ask (again) Redyre if EVERY puppy out of her extremely heavily titled dogs (BOTH PARENTS) are all breed/show quality. NO... not even out of the four fantastic puppies she just had. There is one that is most likely a pet puppy. That dog, regardless of the magnificient, heavily health tested, heavily championed background is NOT a good candidate for breeding. At least be responsible doing that.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*So, besides everything else going on in this forum...LOL. For the people that are interested in my Maltese Pregnancy, today is her 42 day in her pregnancy!! Exactly 6 weeks! I was waiting forever to get here and now it seems to go by so fast! Celeste cannot get comfortable for the life of her!! I never seen her toss and turn so much! The good thing is she is starting to sleep in her whelping box more now. I am very glad she is starting to feel comfortable in it!  Oh, and potty breaks are VERY frequent! Heehee..She has no problem peeing ANYTIME I take her outside!!! If any of you are interested and would like to ask more questions about her, please let me know. Thank you!*


----------



## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> No, I do not show. When I first got my maltese..it was a plan for me and I was actually interested in it, but I decided to breed her.


Are these things mutually exclusive for some reason that I don't understand? Does your dog have any titles at all? If not, how do you prove to potential buyers that your dog is an exemplary specimen of the breed standard?

Shenanigans.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Papilove said:


> I'm sorry maltesemomxoxo but every 'explanation/excuse' you gave above screams BYB. It's true, as DJsmom said that, of course not every one that comes here breeding dogs, or wanting to, knows as much as they should to be a breeder: there's no sin in that. However, there are some painful truths in life, some that are not fun to hear, especially when it shows you are not doing things right. Instead of being defensive, and learning, you insist you are not doing things wrong, and simply should not be pressed to do what ANY RESPONSIBLE breeder should be able to do/want to do/MUST do when ANYONE asks. Read Redyre's post on the excuses of a BYB again and then look at your own responses to all the posts. If you're honest, at least with yourself, you will learn, and understand you have to change the way you are thinking, and should be very careful with these puppies, and placing them, AND not continue in the same path again. As for champions in the pedigree, it doesn't matter how many there are in the background. That's a 'start' but no where near the finish line. Ask (again) Redyre if EVERY puppy out of her extremely heavily titled dogs (BOTH PARENTS) are all breed/show quality. NO... not even out of the four fantastic puppies she just had. There is one that is most likely a pet puppy. That dog, regardless of the magnificient, heavily health tested, heavily championed background is NOT a good candidate for breeding. At least be responsible doing that.


 *That's why in most of my posts I've said I understand. It's not truly being defensive in my eyes. I am going to read and listen to what everyone has to say and I definitely appreciate their love for dogs! It's just I'm not going to give out every personal answer asked. I think that's why people have opinions, for the ones that they can't know every single thing about. You have to use your knowledge and best judgement to truly know if that person is really being honest or not.*


----------



## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

What is your dogs registered name? 
Can you provide a link to the health tests you have had done?


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Moxie said:


> Are these things mutually exclusive for some reason that I don't understand? Does your dog have any titles at all? If not, how do you prove to potential buyers that your dog is an exemplary specimen of the breed standard?
> 
> Shenanigans.


That is very true if I haven't shown her. But I have researched and met different people that work with maltese over and over about the maltese. I've done evaluations on her with my vet with measurements and I even went to other reputable breeders that did show their dogs and have asked questions and went over mine and my vets exams with them.


----------



## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

I always love these threads about breeding.

To the OP, how is your dog's score on health tests "personal information"?
I'd understand if people were asking for your adress, phone number or medical information, but since many of the results for dogs' health tests are already public in databases available to anyone on the net, why not post the link and have this whole doubt-filled discussion done and over with?


----------



## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Threads like these are precisely why I have stopped coming here so often. Do you all really think that this person is going to glean any useful information from this forum if they don't stay due to the fact that you all keep on asking the same inane questions over and over and over. Are any of you interested in buying a puppy from her? No? Oh, well then maybe you should stop being so abusive just because you don't agree with the fact that her dogs aren't "proven" (which really means nothing to me) in the show ring or agility. 

Is she a puppy mill? No. Perhaps she is a byb, but she seems to be taking very special care of her bitch and not doing it to make a profit, which is really what a byb is to me. We all have our differences in opinion, but jumping down her throat isn't going to do any good for her, the dog, or YOU. 

To the OP: Keep on taking care of your girl to make sure that she has a healthy pregnancy, and be sure to post pics of the cuties once they arrive.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Meshkenet said:


> I always love these threads about breeding.
> 
> To the OP, how is your dog's score on health tests "personal information"?
> I'd understand if people were asking for your adress, phone number or medical information, but since many of the results for dogs' health tests are already public in databases available to anyone on the net, why not post the link and have this whole doubt-filled discussion done and over with?


You know, no one has to believe me. And I am not going to have to prove myself in that way for any of you to believe. I personally don't feel that's right. I'm sorry, but that's just me. If you don't like any of the things I had to say, then there is nothing I can do for you because I won't do something that I feel I shouldn't have to. I came on here to post my maltese pregnancy and that's it. I didn't come here for a debate. I know what I had done as to her and the stud health checked and examined and tested. And I know what I did was correct. I'm sure you have opinions on it, and that's fine. I am willing to listen and learn what is best.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Boolette: how exactly is anything we're asking, or insisting on 'inane'?

The fact that the OP continues to insist her reasonings are solid and she has heath tests that she doesn't see the need to offer proof of in the way any good and responsible breeder should be able to is the reason she is being continuously 'abused' as you call it.

Are we supposed to be all joyous and congratulatory for the breeding of a very likely average at best specimen with very likely questionable genetic health (note GENETIC health, not general well-being health)?

Will this person learn? Whether she stays or doesn't, it doesn't seem like she has any desire to, or will. IF she stays, and makes an honest attempt to understand what people who are genuinely concerned are saying about this breeding, and doesn't continue to breed, she may, that would be a wonderful thing. In no way should someone who made an honest mistake, but comes here, and is told what is wrong with their methods, then makes every attempt to rectify and change their methods be punished further, or 'abused'.

The fact is, if she were seriously intent on doing the right thing in breeding, she would be consumed with how to get MORE of the information so many people are offering here.

Being defensive is a useless device of someone trying to make excuses for their actions and convince others they are 'okay'.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> You know, no one has to believe me. And I am not going to have to prove myself in that way for any of you to believe.


Thing is, when you breed, there will always be people who will find things to criticize you about. I know even good breeders (in my opinion) who are bashed by others for various reasons. There are lots of breeders who look good on paper, but who I would never respect or buy a dog from. 

If you're really doing the right thing, then don't worry what other people have to say. But also realize that the pups you produce are your responsiblity, and you owe it to them to ensure they have long, healthy lives. I can tell you love your dog, so be sure you are ensuring that all of her babies will have the best quality of life possible. People get leery when they feel someone might be taking risks with the health of puppies, that's why people get so suspicious of folks who post breeding threads here.



> Threads like these are precisely why I have stopped coming here so often.


That's too bad, Boo. I find that I'm often better off just ignoring the threads that I know will tick me off. But sometimes I can't help myself, regardless. =P


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

BooLette said:


> Threads like these are precisely why I have stopped coming here so often. Do you all really think that this person is going to glean any useful information from this forum if they don't stay due to the fact that you all keep on asking the same inane questions over and over and over. Are any of you interested in buying a puppy from her? No? Oh, well then maybe you should stop being so abusive just because you don't agree with the fact that her dogs aren't "proven" (which really means nothing to me) in the show ring or agility.
> 
> Is she a puppy mill? No. Perhaps she is a byb, but she seems to be taking very special care of her bitch and not doing it to make a profit, which is really what a byb is to me. We all have our differences in opinion, but jumping down her throat isn't going to do any good for her, the dog, or YOU.
> 
> To the OP: Keep on taking care of your girl to make sure that she has a healthy pregnancy, and be sure to post pics of the cuties once they arrive.


*Thanks. I am really trying to do the best I can. I have never bred my dogs before, but have done research and seen whelping in person and many other things for several of years. Once I was interested in breeding, I did not just jump and breed my dog!! I wanted to find out what health tests are best prior to breeding. What genetic problems to look for. What complications are a possibility during breeding and pregnancy. Even after the pups are born. I had to make sure I had the money if she were needed to have an emergency C-section. I really did think about it all. And I can't explain everything through a computer. Especially after the time I did put through researching everything. It's not that simple.*


----------



## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I have one very simple question for you OP;

What is your dogs registered name?

This is not personal information, it is just basic info that I am interested in.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Yeah that is very true. It's just now, they believe if I show any type of defense, I'm a BYB. If I run away and don't answer every single question, I'm a BYB. Let me tell you something, I am NOT a BYB!! I don't just breed my dogs for profit. I actually really care about my dogs. They get health checked, I take them to the vet when they need it. I feed them well. They are treated like humans in my family, not just caged animals!! I take them to trainers, obedience classes, and yes, I also train them myself! But I'm NOT a BYB.*


----------



## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

I don't see the OP getting defensive like most people who post pregnancy threads...just saying. I think everyone needs to just chill out cause this line of interrogating isn't going to get anyone anywhere. Now if the OP stays she has a chance of becoming the breeder you all want her to be, but if you chase her off than nothing will change. Besides the pups are already on their way in a few weeks, so going in circles at this point isn't going to do anything.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Yeah that is very true. It's just now, they believe if I show any type of defense, I'm a BYB. If I run away and don't answer every single question, I'm a BYB. Let me tell you something, I am NOT a BYB!! I don't just breed my dogs for profit. I actually really care about my dogs. They get health checked, I take them to the vet when they need it. I feed them well. They are treated like humans in my family, not just caged animals!! I take them to trainers, obedience classes, and yes, I also train them myself! But I'm NOT a BYB.*



I'm very sorry, but you are. You are not necessarily, and most likely you are not, a puppy mill... but you are, in every description a backyard breeder, at least until you prove otherwise, which you are unwilling (and likely unable) to do.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> They are both AKC with the mom having generations of champions.


That means absolutely nothing.



> but I really don't think I should have to give out every personal information about the breeding.


Um, that's kind of a BIG PART of being a responsible breeder.



> But for me to give scores and the whole generation, I might as well send each person a copy of the paperwork and results from my vet!


That's what GOOD BREEDERS DO!

You could go take a look at my website and check out all my FAQs and my Puppies page, and I already give more information than you do, and my bitch is nowhere near ready to be bred yet!


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Papilove said:


> Boolette: how exactly is anything we're asking, or insisting on 'inane'?
> 
> The fact that the OP continues to insist her reasonings are solid and she has heath tests that she doesn't see the need to offer proof of in the way any good and responsible breeder should be able to is the reason she is being continuously 'abused' as you call it.
> 
> ...


 *I really don't believe that. Even the BEST reputable breeder in the world can always learn more information. But that doesn't stop them from breeding. I know plenty of really good information on breeding as to where I am making safe choices for my maltese, but I am not going to stop breeding just because there can always be more information to learn. Yes, I will listen and learn, but that is just more to add to what I already know. And really, if someone is wanting to breed, I would definitely want to make sure they know ALL the basic information on breed, health, tests, genetics, complications, birth defects, breeding, pregnancy, whelping, and so forth. Anything else I learn is just a bonus and I do appreciate it.*


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

You are not going to stop, and that's the bottom line.


----------



## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

Papilove said:


> You are not going to stop, and that's the bottom line.


Papilove you arent going to help/make a differece going on like this.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Xeph said:


> That means absolutely nothing.
> 
> 
> Um, that's kind of a BIG PART of being a responsible breeder.
> ...


 You aren't getting a puppy from me! I don't need to show you that! That's what I am trying to say. I'm not going to be prodded and poked at just because I don't want to show you the paperwork!! You don't need to know. It's not up to you that decides if I'm a good breeder or not. The potential owners of the puppies can make that decision and ask me for all that information. Because the potential owners will actually see how well I take care of my dogs and see the paperwork and I'm sure will tell others.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I'm just saying ... with the amount of pride you take in your dogs .. usually _good_ breeders *want* to show others what makes their dogs so amazing..... just saying ... considering its their passion and all ... just sayin


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You aren't getting a puppy from me!


No, I'm not, but that's not the point. The point is someone should be proud enough of their breeding to provide such things to people.

I'm going to end up with a LOT of inquiries from people eventually. Some will be wanting a puppy, and some will just be wanting general info. The people that just want information are no less entitled to it than those who for sure want a puppy.



> The potential owners of the puppies can make that decision and ask me for all that information.


And if they don't, will you volunteer it?

Quite frankly my annoyance with this thread is the fact that it was your VERY FIRST POST here. No introduction, no names for your dogs, just "Hey look! My dog is pregnant!"

It's not a very good lead in.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*Okay, this is all I'm going to say. I have things to do and a family to take care of and I can't be on here debating all day. So you can make it simple or complicated. You can base your decision off of the information I gave in this forum. If you like it and are okay with it, then stay around and be part of my maltese pregnancy. If you want to believe I'm a BYB, then that's your opinion and it's fine..but please don't keep posting because I will not give out anymore information than I already have. And I'm especially not going to listen to negativity! Also, if you do have any information to share, I will listen and learn from more information. That's all..and thanks for the people that tried to help.  *


----------



## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Okay, this is all I'm going to say. I have things to do and a family to take care of and I can't be on here debating all day. So you can make it simple or complicated. You can base your decision off of the information I gave in this forum. If you like it and are okay with it, then stay around and be part of my maltese pregnancy. If you want to believe I'm a BYB, then that's your opinion and it's fine..but please don't keep posting because I will not give out anymore information than I already have. And I'm especially not going to listen to negativity! Also, if you do have any information to share, I will listen and learn from more information. That's all..and thanks for the people that tried to help.  *





maltesemomxoxo said:


> You aren't getting a puppy from me! I don't need to show you that! That's what I am trying to say. I'm not going to be prodded and poked at just because I don't want to show you the paperwork!! You don't need to know. It's not up to you that decides if I'm a good breeder or not. The potential owners of the puppies can make that decision and ask me for all that information. Because the potential owners will actually see how well I take care of my dogs and see the paperwork and I'm sure will tell others.


Such Bull... Reputable Breeders have all the info out on their web sites for all to see... ALL people, even those who arent buying puppies. Why? Because they are PROUD and they want people to see their accomplishments with their breed, healthwise and show/obedience wise.

You are a BYBer... simple as that... and it's ridiculous you keep on trying to deny it. If you have all of that info, why not just SHOW IT instead of getting defensive? 
If you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem. *3 Thumbs Down*
Reputable Breeders dont just come on to forums and announce LOOK my dog's pregnant! Check out Redyre's thread... she is a REPUTABLE BREEDER and proud to show EVERYTHING down to the tee. You have nothing to show, but a dog adding to the BYB problem, no titles, no health certs. no nothing. Just plain annoying.

Xeph is right...
Nessa


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Then i would say give HER a peek ... she knows what the heck shes doing ... _Personally_ if i was ever going to breed dogs she would be the first person i talked to


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Yeah that is very true. It's just now, they believe if I show any type of defense, I'm a BYB. If I run away and don't answer every single question, I'm a BYB. Let me tell you something, I am NOT a BYB!! I don't just breed my dogs for profit. I actually really care about my dogs. They get health checked, I take them to the vet when they need it. I feed them well. They are treated like humans in my family, not just caged animals!! I take them to trainers, obedience classes, and yes, I also train them myself! But I'm NOT a BYB.*


Dogs? Just how many *are* you breeding?


----------



## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

Papilove said:


> Being defensive is a useless device of someone trying to make excuses for their actions and convince others they are 'okay'.


Or it could be a natural response by someone who was very excited about her dog's pregnancy, isn't familiar with better breeding practices, and got reamed as soon as she made a post. I'm not trying to defend this lady and I don't care if she stays or not, but the pregnancy has already happened. Changing someone's mind doesn't happen with one thread where they're constantly berated and overwhelmed by people. It takes time. Especially if she did get guidance before this. Why should she believe any of the rude people in this thread above her vet?


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

_"It is not for a profit what so ever. My friends and family are wanting one and have before I even decided to go through with this. The amount I will be getting, wont even be close to all the tests I've done!"_

_"Actually I have all homes lined up. I am going to do a wellness check of the homes later this week and I am going to make sure they have a great understanding about the breed. So there will be many questions asked."_

So now it's 'dogs' and not just for family & friends this one time but a BYB in the making. 

And why do you have to _"do a wellness check of the homes"_ of your own friends and family? Your answers have many inconsistancies.


----------



## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

waterbaby said:


> Or it could be a natural response by someone who was very excited about her dog's pregnancy, isn't familiar with better breeding practices, and got reamed as soon as she made a post. I'm not trying to defend this lady and I don't care if she stays or not, but the pregnancy has already happened. Changing someone's mind doesn't happen with one thread where they're constantly berated and overwhelmed by people. It takes time. Especially if she did get guidance before this. Why should she believe any of the rude people in this thread above her vet?


I very much agree. Not only that, but really? there are actually people in the world who don't even know what BYB means! Yes, even people with dogs! And yes, even people who make the unforgiving mistake of actually letting their beloved family dog have a litter. 
Asking questioning is one thing - rudeness & interrogation are another.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*I'm sorry. I have 3 dogs. I have 2 male pitbulls, and my female maltese. She is the only one I'm breeding.*


mitzi said:


> Dogs? Just how many *are* you breeding?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If only show people bred, purebred dogs would soon be extinct. Showing is insanely expensive, time consuming, and nearly impossible if you don't have the proper temperment for it. And as said on another thread "if you're not born to it, good luck". So that kind of elitist system is where ALL well-bred dogs come from, huh? I call shenanigans on THAT. 

If someone is doing all the proper health testing and take good care of their dogs, that's what counts. I wouldn't buy from half the show breeders I know of, because I don't think they truly care about their dogs as individuals, or about dogs in general. I'd be much more comfortable buying from someone like this than from someone like them.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> So that kind of elitist system is where ALL well-bred dogs come from, huh?


Nobody said that. There are many GSDs that I'd take my bitch to that are not finished champions, but rather have working titles behind their names.

I wouldn't be comfortable buying from a person (any breed) that would not be forthcoming in their health testing. That's where the issue lies. Lack of proof.


----------



## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Nobody said that. There are many GSDs that I'd take my bitch to that are not finished champions, but rather have working titles behind their names.
> 
> *I wouldn't be comfortable buying from a person (any breed) that would not be forthcoming in their health testing. That's where the issue lies. Lack of proof.*


Couldnt have said it better.
Nessa


----------



## Mizuno (Jun 9, 2010)

I am far from a valued member of this forum as I am new here, and I know very little about breeding dogs (it was just this year, in fact, that I learned about OFA and PRA and other things dogs should be tested for) but I do know ownership and the responsibility it takes to have a dog. Contrary to the song, love isn't all you need. And while I think the facts are pretty laid out, I figure I would wait to pass judgment for a little bit and see how this soap opera of a thread unfolds.

Maltesemom mentioned she had mentors that helped and taught her things, right? Mentioned ad nauseum, if I recall all 5/6 pages of this discussion. And I know having a mentor isn't uncommon. She insists she isn't a BYB, and I would love to believe her... but I would be more inclined to "side" with her in this if her mentors were reputable breeders themselves. I wonder if she would give the websites/names of her mentors? People that go to shows and events know of people everywhere, and many reputable breeders have websites bragging about their lines and carefully thought out babies, show prospects they have, and stories of how the offspring of their great dogs are doing great as well. I would hope that any reputable breeder would teach someone to the best of their ability and share their knowledge, or strongly (and hopefully persuasively) discourage someone they felt was incorrect in breeding their pet quality dog.

So, because this wouldn't be releasing any "personal" information, Maltesemom, would you mind telling who your mentors are?


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Xeph;904509
Um said:


> Exactly! I'd run away from a breeder who didn't give out that info


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

BooLette said:


> Threads like these are precisely why I have stopped coming here so often. Do you all really think that this person is going to glean any useful information from this forum if they don't stay due to the fact that you all keep on asking the same inane questions over and over and over. Are any of you interested in buying a puppy from her? No? Oh, well then maybe you should stop being so abusive just because you don't agree with the fact that her dogs aren't "proven" (which really means nothing to me) in the show ring or agility.
> 
> Is she a puppy mill? No. Perhaps she is a byb, but she seems to be taking very special care of her bitch and not doing it to make a profit, which is really what a byb is to me. We all have our differences in opinion, but jumping down her throat isn't going to do any good for her, the dog, or YOU.
> 
> To the OP: Keep on taking care of your girl to make sure that she has a healthy pregnancy, and be sure to post pics of the cuties once they arrive.


You work in a shelter. You see dogs that are poorly bred coming in day in and day out, and being euthanized by your co-workers. Yes, doing health tests is good, but when you're breeding dogs that don't even LOOK like they should or have the correct temperments, it affects their health too. You really don't think showing means anything? THAT is how you prove a breed like this. There is a standard for a reason. If not, there's no point in the dogs being registered or the AKC even existing. I can't imagine an organization so big was built for no reason, but to waste their time. 

Supporting someone like this is sad.



maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Yeah that is very true. It's just now, they believe if I show any type of defense, I'm a BYB. If I run away and don't answer every single question, I'm a BYB. Let me tell you something, I am NOT a BYB!! I don't just breed my dogs for profit. I actually really care about my dogs. They get health checked, I take them to the vet when they need it. I feed them well. They are treated like humans in my family, not just caged animals!! I take them to trainers, obedience classes, and yes, I also train them myself! But I'm NOT a BYB.*


You are a backyard breeder in almost every sense that is morally right to me. I've met very few BYB that DIDN'T care about their dogs. They are just ill-informed. I've also met very few BYB that cage their animals. No basis for arguement. That would make you a puppy mill, which you clearly are not. Honestly though, you seem to have some knowledge of proper breeding, and I do respect that. I would be much more upset if you were breeding unhealthy specimens, but that doesn't mean what you are doing is right. You want to keep breeding to learn, right? Well why don't you take some advice from us and learn to breed a little bit better and to earn more people's respect/breed morally right. You already spend quite a bit of money on your dogs, obviously, and you enjoy doing things with them, right? Why don't you take some handling classes at a local club and start showing your bitch? Prove to everyone that she is a good specimen both structurally and health-wise. Prove it to yourself. There's nothing better to be proud of than having a Champion show dog that YOU made that way and an equally healthy dog that you KNOW is producing HEALTHY, QUALITY STRUCTRURED dogs. Along with that, make yourself a website. Get yourself known and put your information out there so that people know you're better than other breeders and they should get a dog from you. Make a CONTRACT stating that the pups have to come back to you if anything happens, not just a verbal agreement, to keep the pups out of shelters, even if you think it will never happen. Microchip them before you leave and include spay/neuter agreements in your contract and a limited registration unless the new owner can get their pup a CH title and they do all the proper health testing that you do, so that you KNOW your lines are healthy, being continued, and are worth it, because they'll be the perfect example of the breed. 

Why don't you just think about it, eh?

(something about making more friends with honey than something else?)



Willowy said:


> If only show people bred, purebred dogs would soon be extinct. Showing is insanely expensive, time consuming, and nearly impossible if you don't have the proper temperment for it. And as said on another thread "if you're not born to it, good luck". So that kind of elitist system is where ALL well-bred dogs come from, huh? I call shenanigans on THAT.
> 
> If someone is doing all the proper health testing and take good care of their dogs, that's what counts. I wouldn't buy from half the show breeders I know of, because I don't think they truly care about their dogs as individuals, or about dogs in general. I'd be much more comfortable buying from someone like this than from someone like them.


That's not all that counts. I can't believe you think that most show breeders doing it right don't care about their dogs. There are numerous breeders here that very obviously do. When people don't show, the breed gets changed. Not only physically, but health wise too, then there are things that people aren't health testing for that start developing and the "breed" is ruined. Does that make sense to you?


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> You work in a shelter. You see dogs that are poorly bred coming in day in and day out, and being euthanized by your co-workers. Yes, doing health tests is good, but when you're breeding dogs that don't even LOOK like they should or have the correct temperments, it affects their health too. You really don't think showing means anything? THAT is how you prove a breed like this. There is a standard for a reason. If not, there's no point in the dogs being registered or the AKC even existing. I can't imagine an organization so big was built for no reason, but to waste their time.
> 
> Supporting someone like this is sad.
> 
> ...


Just because I don't want to give anyone all the specific information?? Most want to think I'm a BYB through a computer. Now that's just sad!


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> When people don't show, the breed gets changed. Not only physically, but health wise too,


There are also examples of breeds who changed radically after becoming all-breed show dogs. Not always for the better. The conformation ring is not an infallible arena for positive outcomes.

I know one great Crestie breeder, who doesn't do the conformation ring. However, her dogs are all extremely successful Agility dogs, and one of her gals became the first MACH6 in the history of the breed. She breeds a bit bigger than is popular in the ring currently, and for true hairlessness (another thing unpopular nowadays). She isn't interested in Conformation, but her dogs are sound as heck (a requirement for Agility excellence), healthy and fit her view of the ideal Chinese Crested as the standard and history of the breed has described. To me, I could care less if her dogs aren't titled for the Conformation ring. I'd be proud to own one of her dogs, frankly, even though some Conformation people may not like their style.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> Just because I don't want to give anyone all the specific information?? Most want to think I'm a BYB through a computer. Now that's just sad!


No, because you don't show and don't have your program/act together, or head in the right place. I could care less what you should me online. I want to see it working or in the ring, and you don't do that. 



Pai said:


> There are also examples of breeds who changed radically after becoming all-breed show dogs. Not always for the better. The conformation ring is not an infallible arena for positive outcomes.


I didn't say it was. I said it was for this type of dog. I think working breeds should be proven in working trials (working stock, retrieving, schutzhund, etc.)first and in the ring second. I think companion types or those that aren't used or can't do what they were originally intended now should be in the ring.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

*They all don't have to be in the ring to be bred. I don't have to show you anything. That's great you have your opinion but it won't change what I think about me breeding. *


DJEtzel said:


> No, because you don't show and don't have your program/act together, or head in the right place. I could care less what you should me online. I want to see it working or in the ring, and you don't do that.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say it was. I said it was for this type of dog. I think working breeds should be proven in working trials (working stock, retrieving, schutzhund, etc.)first and in the ring second. I think companion types or those that aren't used or can't do what they were originally intended now should be in the ring.


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Do you have a pedigree of the dam / sire?
You say they have championships in their pedigree, so lets see it.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> That's not all that counts. I can't believe you think that most show breeders doing it right don't care about their dogs. There are numerous breeders here that very obviously do. When people don't show, the breed gets changed. Not only physically, but health wise too, then there are things that people aren't health testing for that start developing and the "breed" is ruined. Does that make sense to you?


No. I don't think conformation showing has anything to do with anything, except being an interesting hobby for people who like that sort of thing. It's too dependent on politics, who you know, and what color the judge prefers. With very little to do with producing physically and tempermentally sound dogs. Anybody can read the breed standard and breed to that standard.

For the record, I didn't say "most" show breeders. . .but those I have met do not really care about their dogs _individually_. They care about what that dog can win for them, or what kind of puppies that dog can produce, or some other show-related thing that has nothing to do with the dogs individually. They "dispose" of mismarks and dogs not able to breed. And they certainly don't care about dogs in general. Most of them (in my experience, remember, don't jump all over the generalization) would be perfectly happy if every dog in the world except for their dogs dropped dead. They think mutts should be drowned at birth and shelter dogs should all be killed. And there are some serious welfare concerns in certains breeds, especially, in which they deliberately breed for certain genetic traits (Dalmatian spots or merling) that also cause disabilities, and then kill the puppies who are born with those disabilities. So, no, I wouldn't support someone like that ever.

And even if I were to believe that showing is the only way to produce good dogs, there were, what, about a million dogs registered with the AKC last year? And over 7 million dogs are needed to replace the dogs who die of old age every year. So, yes, purebred dogs would go extinct if not for non-show breeders. It's better to have non-show breeders who health test and treat their dogs decently than to leave it to the puppymills to produce the puppies everybody wants.


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *They all don't have to be in the ring to be bred. I don't have to show you anything. That's great you have your opinion but it won't change what I think about me breeding. *


To be fair, most breeders that have a litter, pick the litter because they know the offspring will contribute something to the breed. They also have a litter so they can keep pick bitch. This is a very common theme. 

I have placed a deposit on two HOF kennels for a new pup. Both kennels have specific reasons why they had the litter. This reasons include: The dog was a great confirmation dog with correct structure and no disqualifying faults, the dog could herd cattle and the cross was strong to produce working aussies, etc etc. The list goes on and on.

My point is: If I asked the breeder why they had the cross, they could name off reasons. 

It doesn't seem like you can do that.


----------



## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Anybody can read the breed standard and breed to that standard.


But the whole point of showing is to have someone judge how well your dog does meet the standard. Just because you can read the standard doesn't mean you can breed it.


----------



## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Hey, DJ where'd your GSD come from? Most likely nowhere like a reputable breeder or a shelter since you only just recently turned 18, right?

There are so many people on this forum that say I got XYZ dog from a pet store, byb, puppy mill, ect BUT NOW I KNOW BETTER! I call major Bull****. Mighty hypocritical, since you don't know how much this person 'knows better'. Jumping down there throat because you want to jump on the dog forum bash the new person with a pregnant dog band wagon. Honestly, I agree with Willowy 100%.

I most likely wouldn't post any of the information on my dogs either if I were being attacked like you all are attacking this person. I say attack because if it were me, that is exactly how I would feel about it. ESPECIALLY if I didn't KNOW that what I was doing was wrong. Growing up I knew nothing of reputable breeders. My grandmother always got her dogs from BYBs or Pet stores and we were none the wiser. I would have been mightily offended if you suggested to me that any of my dogs were any less of their breed simply because they didn't come from 'proven' lines. So what? AKC means nothing to me. Just because you show your dogs doesn't make them amazing. 

She said that she has health tested, and for me that is the most important. I am not going to INSIST that she show me the proof just because she joined here and OMG WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW! 

The way that you all are acting towards this person is exactly why people shy away from this site. I had a friend come here for advice about her elderly diabetic dog per my recommendation and she didn't even post. She won't come here because of how heated everything was. She was put off right from the get go. How awesome is that? Driving people away with your pushiness.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Loki Love said:


> But the whole point of showing is to have someone judge how well your dog does meet the standard. Just because you can read the standard doesn't mean you can breed it.


How does having someone else (subjectively. . .don't even try to tell me the judges are objective) judge your dog according to the standard help you breed toward the standard any better? Anybody who knows and cares about their breed knows what to look for.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> They all don't have to be in the ring to be bred.


They don't all have to be bred.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Willowy said:


> How does having someone else (subjectively. . .don't even try to tell me the judges are objective) judge your dog according to the standard help you breed toward the standard any better? Anybody who knows and cares about their breed knows what to look for.


 Exactly! That's how I see it.


----------



## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Willowy said:


> How does having someone else (subjectively. . .don't even try to tell me the judges are objective) judge your dog according to the standard help you breed toward the standard any better? Anybody who knows and cares about their breed knows what to look for.


Have you shown dogs? Have you actively attended shows? Of course judges are going to be somewhat biased. Take Great Danes for example - some judges prefer the bulkier look of a Dane, other judges prefer the leaner, elegant look - that's why it takes VARIOUS judges and a goodly number of showings to obtain a championship. 

Anyone who thinks they can pick up a book and read about the standard is both arrogant and dillusional, in my opinion. It takes years of knowing a breed, years of showing, years of understanding what type of dogs to put together in order to compliment both the faults and positives. 

I love and care about my breed, but I'm humble enough to admit that I wouldn't know where to even begin in breeding.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Loki Love said:


> But the whole point of showing is to have someone judge how well your dog does meet the standard. Just because you can read the standard doesn't mean you can breed it.


The standard doesn't exist in a vacuum, yes. Someone should research the breed's history, genetics, and basic canine anatomy (to learn what terms like 'moderate angulation', or 'sloping croup' means, etc). If you just read a standard without any kind of background knowledge of a breed (or of canine structure), it's just gibberish.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

BooLette said:


> Hey, DJ where'd your GSD come from? Most likely nowhere like a reputable breeder or a shelter since you only just recently turned 18, right?
> 
> There are so many people on this forum that say I got XYZ dog from a pet store, byb, puppy mill, ect BUT NOW I KNOW BETTER! I call major Bull****. Mighty hypocritical, since you don't know how much this person 'knows better'. Jumping down there throat because you want to jump on the dog forum bash the new person with a pregnant dog band wagon. Honestly, I agree with Willowy 100%.
> 
> ...


I thought this site was going to be nice and helpful. But with all the interrogating, it isn't helping me one bit. The only way you would truly know hoe good of a person is with their pets, is to literally live with them and their pets. I just wanted to share my excitement with other people that care. And if you're going to assume I'm a BYB just because I don't want to give you every single bit of information, then so be it..that's just your choice. But don't sit here and keep going on and on and trying to dig more dirt from me. I already stated I'm not going to give anything else out. So leave it at that.



maltesemomxoxo said:


> I thought this site was going to be nice and helpful. But with all the interrogating, it isn't helping me one bit. The only way you would truly know hoe good of a person is with their pets, is to literally live with them and their pets. I just wanted to share my excitement with other people that care. And if you're going to assume I'm a BYB just because I don't want to give you every single bit of information, then so be it..that's just your choice. But don't sit here and keep going on and on and trying to dig more dirt from me. I already stated I'm not going to give anything else out. So leave it at that.


 This is for the ones that want to interrogate and question every little detail by the way.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I just wanted to share my excitement with other people that care.


Here's your problem....you joined this forum, apparently assuming that we're just a bunch of pet people that are all just going to go "Ohhhh YAYYYY PUPPPIEEESSS!!!" and we are not that type of forum.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> I thought this site was going to be nice and helpful. But with all the interrogating, it isn't helping me one bit. The only way you would truly know hoe good of a person is with their pets, is to literally live with them and their pets. I just wanted to share my excitement with other people that care. And if you're going to assume I'm a BYB just because I don't want to give you every single bit of information, then so be it..that's just your choice. But don't sit here and keep going on and on and trying to dig more dirt from me. I already stated I'm not going to give anything else out. So leave it at that.
> 
> This is for the ones that want to interrogate and question every little detail by the way.


Your dogs may be great pets, and healthy PETS, but you've given no one any reason to feel they are breeding quality. You are not, for the most part baring a few (and those same few would be right in there screaming and crying foul if those same puppies ended up in shelters, or with serious health problems), hearing what you WANT to hear.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

surftb15 said:


> To be fair, most breeders that have a litter, pick the litter because they know the offspring will contribute something to the breed. They also have a litter so they can keep pick bitch. This is a very common theme.
> 
> I have placed a deposit on two HOF kennels for a new pup. Both kennels have specific reasons why they had the litter. This reasons include: The dog was a great confirmation dog with correct structure and no disqualifying faults, the dog could herd cattle and the cross was strong to produce working aussies, etc etc. The list goes on and on.
> 
> ...


 That's right, but *YOU* are not buying a pup from me. That is why I see no need to give you that information.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> That's right, but *YOU* are not buying a pup from me. That is why I see no need to give you that information.



You keep giving that as a reason for not producing any information ([email protected]@@@ by the way), but in the same breath whining that you aren't getting the acceptance and understanding for breeding a litter you think you should in a dog forum. You can't have one and not the other. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. Responsible breeders who have the information, are more than willing to share it. It's not some big industry secret. You've been asked something as simple in this thread as your dog's registered name. IF she is indeed registered (with a reputable club such as UKC or AKC, not that insideious CKC) you haven't produced even that. There's good reason (for a disreputable breeder) not doing that. Because with a name we can look up the info we should be able to find that you won't (can't) produce.

Your adamant stomping of the feet only proves you to be what you scream you are not. Sorry, it really is that black and white.


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> That's right, but *YOU* are not buying a pup from me. That is why I see no need to give you that information.


And I wouldn't want to buy a pup from you, either.

Anyway, its not to hard to say "well, dam contributed this", so on and so forth. A little honesty goes a long way, especially here.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Papilove said:


> Your dogs may be great pets, and healthy PETS, but you've given no one any reason to feel they are breeding quality. You are not, for the most part baring a few (and those same few would be right in there screaming and crying foul if those same puppies ended up in shelters, or with serious health problems), hearing what you WANT to hear.


*That's correct, but the thing is, they are not going to end up in any shelter. That's why I chose this first litter to go to family and friends so I can have an eye on them. Even people that buy a pup from a reputable breeder, those pups end up in shelters! It does happen. Some people are fine with the information I provided them. Some like you are not.*


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

You know, everyone, there really isn't a point to continue bickering over this, it's clear nobody is going to change their mind. It's just going to be a fight forever.


----------



## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *That's why I chose this first litter to go to family and friends so I can have an eye on them.*


:doh:

So this is a trial run then? Nice.


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Yep, this is going to go round and round and never stop.
Good luck to you.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

You're confusing a BYB with "puppy mill"...two different things, although both contribute to the pet overpopulation problem without bettering the breed. A person can be a BYB, even without breeding for profit. In fact i'd guess that the majority of BYB's are people who think that "muffin is cute, and my friends are always telling me they'd like one just like her, and she'd be a great mother, and puppies are so cute." But it doesn't better the breed, and just contributes to the problem.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *That's correct, but the thing is, they are not going to end up in any shelter. That's why I chose this first litter to go to family and friends so I can have an eye on them. Even people that buy a pup from a reputable breeder, those pups end up in shelters! It does happen. Some people are fine with the information I provided them. Some like you are not.*



You may have people who want a puppy... how many? 2, 3, 4, what if there are 5... what if one of those people changes their minds (happens)? But it's not really so much about placement, it's about overall health, proof of quality, how healthy those puppies will be for the REST OF THEIR LIVES, what you are giving your friends and family is a cute little bundle of heartaches if he/she turns out to have heart, joint, eye problems, liver problems, or any of the other possible genetic problems that might not even show up for a couple years.

Add to that, that there are hundreds (more, but let's just assume very locally) of puppies who need homes these people could give loving homes to instead of you breeding more pet quality puppies with questionable health (sorry, until you prove otherwise, I say bull.... you had the right tests run.).


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Papilove said:


> You keep giving that as a reason for not producing any information ([email protected]@@@ by the way), but in the same breath whining that you aren't getting the acceptance and understanding for breeding a litter you think you should in a dog forum. You can't have one and not the other. Sorry. Doesn't work that way. Responsible breeders who have the information, are more than willing to share it. It's not some big industry secret. You've been asked something as simple in this thread as your dog's registered name. IF she is indeed registered (with a reputable club such as UKC or AKC, not that insideious CKC) you haven't produced even that. There's good reason (for a disreputable breeder) not doing that. Because with a name we can look up the info we should be able to find that you won't (can't) produce.
> 
> Your adamant stomping of the feet only proves you to be what you scream you are not. Sorry, it really is that black and white.


I don't need the acceptance from you. For all I know, you can just be some person down the street. I don't know. How about I do a whole check on you and ask you every little detail just because you own pets?


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

spotted nikes said:


> You're confusing a BYB with "puppy mill"...two different things, although both contribute to the pet overpopulation problem without bettering the breed. A person can be a BYB, even without breeding for profit. In fact i'd guess that the majority of BYB's are people who think that "muffin is cute, and my friends are always telling me they'd like one just like her, and she'd be a great mother, and puppies are so cute." But it doesn't better the breed, and just contributes to the problem.


Exactly. Spot on.


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *I'm sorry. I have 3 dogs. I have 2 male pitbulls, and my female maltese. She is the only one I'm breeding.*


Well, you did say "I don't just breed my dogs for profit." Dogs, plural.



maltesemomxoxo said:


> *I don't just breed my dogs for profit. I actually really care about my dogs. They get health checked, I take them to the vet when they need it. I feed them well. They are treated like humans in my family, not just caged animals!! I take them to trainers, obedience classes, and yes, I also train them myself! But I'm NOT a BYB.*


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> I don't need the acceptance from you. For all I know, you can just be some person down the street. I don't know. How about I do a whole check on you and ask you every little detail just because you own pets?


Go ahead. LOL I own PETS... I have no intention of breeding. In the past, decades ago, I did, and I showed, and did health tests... I know what is involved. I have nothing to show now on my current dog because I have no intention of breeding her. If I ever decided to (not), you'd be more than welcome to ask, and I'd happily outline exactly was was done, and give proof. Period.

You don't want my approval... not 'mine' but the overall boards and in general, minus a few, you're not getting it and whining about it.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Papilove said:


> You may have people who want a puppy... how many? 2, 3, 4, what if there are 5... what if one of those people changes their minds (happens)? But it's not really so much about placement, it's about overall health, proof of quality, how healthy those puppies will be for the REST OF THEIR LIVES, what you are giving your friends and family is a cute little bundle of heartaches if he/she turns out to have heart, joint, eye problems, liver problems, or any of the other possible genetic problems that might not even show up for a couple years.
> 
> Add to that, that there are hundreds (more, but let's just assume very locally) of puppies who need homes these people could give loving homes to instead of you breeding more pet quality puppies with questionable health (sorry, until you prove otherwise, I say bull.... you had the right tests run.).


That's why my vet has and will be involved. I will screen homes and make sure they know about the breed if something were to go that way. That's not an issue though because I know who is set on the pups. I cannot make anyone go to shelters, that is not my decision. Their choice was to have a pup from my maltese litter. That is what they want.


----------



## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Maltese Mom,

It shouldn't be this hard to extract this info. It is something YOU should be PROUD of.

For example, my current Aussie comes from a litter whose dam was a PCH WTCH and whose sire was a WTCH. 

The cross contributed to the overall breed standard and working drive of an AUSSIE.

You, as a BREEDER, should be proud of the cross. it shouldn't be pulling teeth!


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> That's why my vet has and will be involved. I will screen homes and make sure they know about the breed if something were to go that way. That's not an issue though because I know who is set on the pups. I cannot make anyone go to shelters, that is not my decision. Their choice was to have a pup from my maltese litter. That is what they want.


LOL
I know this is useless, but I'm still biting. You keep saying the above, and it is completely useless. You are like someone trying desperately to say the 'right' things, and landing just a few degrees off each time you even attempt it.

Your 'vet' might be the right one to go to in order to perform the proper tests, although not all vets are qualified. BUT, it is the governing agencies that give the scores, NOT your vet. Try again.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Papilove said:


> Go ahead. LOL I own PETS... I have no intention of breeding. In the past, decades ago, I did, and I showed, and did health tests... I know what is involved. I have nothing to show now on my current dog because I have no intention of breeding her. If I ever decided to (not), you'd be more than welcome to ask, and I'd happily outline exactly was was done, and give proof. Period.
> 
> You don't want my approval... not 'mine' but the overall boards and in general, minus a few, you're not getting it and whining about it.


I am not whining about it. To me I'd have to say you've been on a rant and whining. Yes, I will defend myself and my dogs when people want to _assume_ things without even truly knowing me or my dogs. You have to have a background check before I can even breed. I mean, really?



mitzi said:


> Well, you did say "I don't just breed my dogs for profit." Dogs, plural.


*Well sorry. I didn't mean that.*


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Yes, I will defend myself and my dogs when people want to assume things without even truly knowing me or my dogs.


All you give us to go off of is assumptions, so you don't get to play that card.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Pai said:


> You know, everyone, there really isn't a point to continue bickering over this, it's clear nobody is going to change their mind. It's just going to be a fight forever.


*That's why I am not going to waste my time anymore. It seems pretty immature for me. So for the ones that are interested in this pregnancy, please let me know. Thanks!*


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> Even people that buy a pup from a reputable breeder, those pups end up in shelters! It does happen.


Maybe, but I'd bet not _nearly_ as often as pups from BYBs. The reputable breeders we refer to make people sign a contract stating that if they can no longer keep the dog at any point in its life, they must inform the breeder, who will take the dog back. Many of these breeders also microchip or tattoo their dogs so they can be alerted if the dog ends up in a shelter anyway. 

Also, why are you putting bold tags around all of your posts? We don't do "font effects" here; this isn't an AOL chat.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Also, why are you putting bold tags around all of your posts? We don't do "font effects" here; this isn't an AOL chat.


#1 *ROFL!*
#2 I was wondering the same thing.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Xeph said:


> All you give us to go off of is assumptions, so you don't get to play that card.


I am going to play that card. Do you not know how many things one person can do on the internet?? You can create anything that's fake no matter what. Since others want to judge that I got my answers for health testing online..and even if I gave anymore information, you would still never know unless it was in person! I can send a made up link and everything. What I'm saying is you have to have your own opinion some time or another. Because when you're on the computer, you really just never know. You can never be that sure if someone is telling you the truth no matter how many facts they know.


----------



## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

I vote for this thread to be locked...this is a true shame to the name of the Dog Forum. Having a group of knowledgeable dog people unable to contain themselves from attacking someone they don't even know. No one here KNOWS this person is a BYB or well educated so no one should be acting like they do know. This forum will die if the members here don't get their heads out of their rears. Sorry if this offends anyone but it is true, everyone is so concerned with their view of the situation that they can't stop and think what will really make the situation better and not what makes them feel better. Chasing away people is not going to do the animals any good, people come here for information and knowledge, to share their accomplishments and failures. How is anyone supposed to be educated when they are afraid to even post? Isn't that what so many people preach here? Is to educate the public on overpopulation, shelters, and dogs in general? Well a fair job everyone is doing! I wouldn't want to be taught by someone who was attacking me either, people can't learn from angry opinions.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Xeph said:


> #1 *ROFL!*
> #2 I was wondering the same thing.


Wow..immature much? If it's there,why not use it. You may want to take your time in the day to grow up and spend your time more needed.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You can create anything that's fake no matter what.


Um.....so the OFA database is fake? You definitely know if OFA is real if the person posts the link to it. You can't fake that (or at least, if you did, you'd have WAY too much time on your hands).

Fact: My German Shepherd Dog Strauss is OFA'd Hips and Elbows
Proof: http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1243803#animal

He's not even a breeding animal and I had hips AND elbows x-rayed, AND have no problem sharing that info. Huh, go fig.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

Active Dog said:


> I vote for this thread to be locked...this is a true shame to the name of the Dog Forum. Having a group of knowledgeable dog people unable to contain themselves from attacking someone they don't even know. No one here KNOWS this person is a BYB or well educated so no one should be acting like they do know. This forum will die if the members here don't get their heads out of their rears. Sorry if this offends anyone but it is true, everyone is so concerned with their view of the situation that they can't stop and think what will really make the situation better and not what makes them feel better. Chasing away people is not going to do the animals any good, people come here for information and knowledge, to share their accomplishments and failures. How is anyone supposed to be educated when they are afraid to even post? Isn't that what so many people preach here? Is to educate the public on overpopulation, shelters, and dogs in general? Well a fair job everyone is doing! I wouldn't want to be taught by someone who was attacking me either, people can't learn from angry opinions.


Locked is a very good idea!


----------



## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

Well, Welcome.

I'm sorry you feel like you've been attacked. You must know that it isn't becuase we think it is fun to ask you these questions and watch you squirm, I'm sure a lot of us are just curious, and we get very excited when a REAL reputable breeder comes along, we do have some great ones here already, but the more the merrier. We just want REASON to support you. Now, I wont say what my entire opinion is as I am not very informed about what goes on with breeding and I have no further questions other than what has already been asked. But, what I would like to know if you would be so kind as to answer me is what harm will come to you from showing those who have asked to see th information what they want to see? I understand you feel that since none of us are getting a puppy from you, it isn't our right to know. Well, my opinion is that since you came here to *share the pregnancy*with us and you wanted to inform us of your puppies and showed us pictures of mommy and gave other information, that we should also get to see the other information we asked to see, or at least be told mom's registered name, which is what I personally would like to know. Anyways, like I said, sorry you felt attacked, and if you are what you say you are and can just show us the proof, DF members would be more than happy to suppoort you and follow your girls pregnancy. Good luck.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Um.....so the OFA database is fake? You definitely know if OFA is real if the person posts the link to it. You can't fake that (or at least, if you did, you'd have WAY too much time on your hands).
> 
> Fact: My German Shepherd Dog Strauss is OFA'd Hips and Elbows
> Proof: http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1243803#animal
> ...



Xeph, this type of hassling is really uncalled for. There are many on this forum who won't give their own dog breeder's information let alone their own dog's information. I happen to know the websites of the breeders that some on this forum have purchased pups from and I can't quite understand the intensity of the posts on this thread considering the complete lack of info these breeders offer.

It boggles my mind those that are all about the plight of rescue dogs while they boast about their own purchased pups.

As an older person that has had the life of my children and dogs threatened by 'someone' from cyberspace, I completely understand the resistance to putting registered names and information over the internet. I think this thread should be locked as well. It is really quite ridiculous.

SOB


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> Xeph, this type of hassling is really uncalled for. There are many on this forum who won't give their own dog breeder's information let alone their own dog's information. I happen to know the websites of the breeders that some on this forum have purchased pups from and I can't quite understand the intensity of the posts on this thread considering the complete lack of info these breeders offer.
> 
> It boggles my mind those that are all about the plight of rescue dogs while they boast about their own purchased pups.
> 
> ...


I completely disagree. And any breeder who would (for whatever reasoning they could possibly have) not provide requested information posted on the OFA site for anyone to find anyway, is someone to run away from as fast as your feet will carry you.

By the way: I'm also an older person, and your hassle reasoning is off base. Asking for health testing proof doesn't ask for HER personal anything. The OFA, or CHIC sites hosts the information and gives NO personal information such as addresses, phone numbers of owner, etc.


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

So you then are willing to put up the OFA testing (or CHIC) behind Batty? Just curious as the website of her/his breeder doesn't even offer an affix.

It is very easy to find breeder's info off of affixes, then phone numbers etc.etc. Not all want that out there.

SOB


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It boggles my mind those that are all about the plight of rescue dogs while they boast about their own purchased pups.


Where does this come into play at all?



> I can't quite understand the intensity of the posts on this thread considering the complete lack of info these breeders offer.


Could it be that some people asked questions of those breeders and got answers?


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

surftb15 said:


> Maltese Mom,
> 
> It shouldn't be this hard to extract this info. It is something YOU should be PROUD of.
> 
> ...


This is correct. This is not info that is privy only to people who want one of your dogs, you have no idea who may be reading & not posting, who may want one of your dogs. The info that has been asked for is what a reputable breeder, who does things the right way, does. We're a mix of people here: breeders, show people, sport people, pet people and more. I'm the latter. I'm just a pet owner but I'm also one who is looking for a puppy of a specific breed. I've emailed and spoken on the phone to three breeders, garnishing info, health clearances, etc to make sure that I'm getting the healthiest puppy I possibly can. Even tho I'm just getting a pet doesn't mean the info is less than important.


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> So you then are willing to put up the OFA testing (or CHIC) behind Batty? Just curious as the website of her/his breeder doesn't even offer an affix.
> 
> It is very easy to find breeder's info off of affixes, then phone numbers etc.etc. Not all want that out there.
> 
> SOB



I would if I had any intention whatsoever of breeding... she is going in to be spayed next month. I am not the one saying I have a bred bitch, saying I don't think there's anything wrong with breeding an unproven, untested dog, and defending it as a good practice, or insisting I have tests on an already bred dog. I wouldn't think anything of it if I was. This person is offering nothing but excuses and saying it is unfair that people don't approve of her breeding practices and crying she is definitely NOT a BYB when everything she says points to the opposite.

By the way, just curious, what is Batty's breeder's website ... what affix are you referring to? If it was the name I gave her originally, it was my 'kennel' name which really isn't a registered kennel name, or one that has any record other than it being her prefix (and I changed it since I first posted it on here), the breeder didn't really care as I signed a spay/neuter contract on her, because I have NO intention of going through everything at this stage in my life. She is simply a pet.


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Um.....so the OFA database is fake? You definitely know if OFA is real if the person posts the link to it. You can't fake that (or at least, if you did, you'd have WAY too much time on your hands).
> 
> Fact: My German Shepherd Dog Strauss is OFA'd Hips and Elbows
> Proof: http://offa.org/display.html?appnum=1243803#animal
> ...


Not about GSD's but one breeder I am looking at has a puppy that just OFA'd excellent....this is a Clumber puppy, they're ranked, I think, #8 in having HD, there are only 20 something Clumbers in the states with excellent OFA's. I should only be so lucky. 
I didn't realize Strauss was 6yrs old, I had him pegged for younger, just by what you say!


----------



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

> Where does this come into play at all?


It comes into play if their own purchases can not stand up to the same scrutiny they want to give this poster . . . and that would be hypocritical.

SOB


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> and that would be hypocritical.


Because no one in the world is a hypocrite. Personally, I don't have a problem with hypocrites, because if I did, I would have no friends *ROFL*



> I didn't realize Strauss was 6yrs old


Yup! In less than 6 months he'll be 7! OMG x.x


----------



## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> It comes into play if their own purchases can not stand up to the same scrutiny they want to give this poster . . . and that would be hypocritical.
> 
> SOB


No, it really doesn't. This poster is saying they are not a byb, but everything they are posting screams they are. This poster has a BRED bitch. Others here do not. This person wants others to be overjoyed at the pregnancy of her dog without giving any reason why it should be such a joyous event. Yes, anyone who says they are breeding a dog, and it was ON PURPOSE for sure, and they have no qualms about it, is asking for it if they can't prove it was a good idea.

The reason: because those puppies have a lifetime of paying for the breeder's irrisponsiblity.

You asked me about my dog... she is already here, she is never going to be bred and I'm not asking anyone to consider me a 'good breeder' because I have no intention purposely or otherwise of breeding dogs now. If I did, I would expect to be asked, and expect to answer.


edited to add: sob, dont' bother answering the question in the earlier post to you. I have decided to go work and not bother with this thread anymore. I started out, like many with the best of intentions in either finding out about the puppies, or helping the person avoid being a byb as they say they want to be, but that is long gone, and it just keeps getting dragged on. The op isn't going to ever change and I have nothing to do with you (sob) whatsoever. I'm out. Peace, bye.


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> Just because I don't want to give anyone all the specific information?? Most want to think I'm a BYB through a computer. Now that's just sad!


But YOU ARE a back yard breeder!



maltesemomxoxo said:


> I thought this site was going to be nice and helpful. But with all the interrogating, it isn't helping me one bit. The only way you would truly know hoe good of a person is with their pets, is to literally live with them and their pets. I just wanted to share my excitement with other people that care. And if you're going to assume I'm a BYB just because I don't want to give you every single bit of information, then so be it..that's just your choice. But don't sit here and keep going on and on and trying to dig more dirt from me. I already stated I'm not going to give anything else out. So leave it at that.


Things would have been different if you had told the truth from the beginning but your inconsistanies and evasiveness told exactly what kind of person you are. 

C'mon, you haven't given ANY information and that's one of the main problems here. If you were truly on the up and up you would answer questions, instead you are afraid posters are "trying to dig more dirt" from you. It's the 'dirt' you are hiding that people are wary of.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

mitzi said:


> But YOU ARE a back yard breeder!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I *DID* tell the truth from the beginning!!! It's just not good enough for some of you. You just keep picking and picking and trying nag for more information. And I will not be pushed to that level.



Papilove said:


> No, it really doesn't. This poster is saying they are not a byb, but everything they are posting screams they are. This poster has a BRED bitch. Others here do not. This person wants others to be overjoyed at the pregnancy of her dog without giving any reason why it should be such a joyous event. Yes, anyone who says they are breeding a dog, and it was ON PURPOSE for sure, and they have no qualms about it, is asking for it if they can't prove it was a good idea.
> 
> The reason: because those puppies have a lifetime of paying for the breeder's irrisponsiblity.
> 
> ...


I'm typing on a computer, not screaming. If you don't want to be excited with my maltese pregnancy, then don't. You want to keep trying to get more information out of me, but I'm not giving it to you. So it's a waste of your time to keep posting because the more and more you post, you seem pretty ignorant.



InkedMarie said:


> This is correct. This is not info that is privy only to people who want one of your dogs, you have no idea who may be reading & not posting, who may want one of your dogs. The info that has been asked for is what a reputable breeder, who does things the right way, does. We're a mix of people here: breeders, show people, sport people, pet people and more. I'm the latter. I'm just a pet owner but I'm also one who is looking for a puppy of a specific breed. I've emailed and spoken on the phone to three breeders, garnishing info, health clearances, etc to make sure that I'm getting the healthiest puppy I possibly can. Even tho I'm just getting a pet doesn't mean the info is less than important.


It's simply my choice if I want to give out the information or not. I chose not to because I'm not going to keep listening to the judgement.


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> *That's correct, but the thing is, they are not going to end up in any shelter. That's why I chose this first litter to go to family and friends so I can have an eye on them..*



Now it's back to family and friends when earlier you said 

_"Actually I have all homes lined up. I am going to do a wellness check of the homes later this week and I am going to make sure they have a great understanding about the breed. So there will be many questions asked."_

You also said earlier that the friends and family were so crazy about the breed that they wanted one. 



maltesemomxoxo said:


> *Even people that buy a pup from a reputable breeder, those pups end up in shelters! It does happen. Some people are fine with the information I provided them. Some like you are not.*


Just because one or two people think you are being treated 'harshly' does not make what you are doing right.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> Xeph, this type of hassling is really uncalled for. There are many on this forum who won't give their own dog breeder's information let alone their own dog's information. I happen to know the websites of the breeders that some on this forum have purchased pups from and I can't quite understand the intensity of the posts on this thread considering the complete lack of info these breeders offer.
> 
> It boggles my mind those that are all about the plight of rescue dogs while they boast about their own purchased pups.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much Spanielorbust. Many people do not see that and can be very harsh.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Just because one or two people think you are being treated 'harshly' does not make what you are doing right.


And Bingo was his name-o!


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

mitzi said:


> Now it's back to family and friends when earlier you said
> 
> _"Actually I have all homes lined up. I am going to do a wellness check of the homes later this week and I am going to make sure they have a great understanding about the breed. So there will be many questions asked."_
> 
> ...


Yes, they do want one. Doesn't mean I can't screen their house. Just because I didn't give you all the information you inquired doesn't mean _you're_ right to judge me as a BYB.


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

spanielorbust said:


> Xeph, this type of hassling is really uncalled for. There are many on this forum who won't give their own dog breeder's information let alone their own dog's information. I happen to know the websites of the breeders that some on this forum have purchased pups from and I can't quite understand the intensity of the posts on this thread considering the complete lack of info these breeders offer.
> 
> It boggles my mind those that are all about the plight of rescue dogs while they boast about their own purchased pups.
> 
> ...


This 65 yo has seen too much suffering of animals over a lifetime not to be offended by BYB who cannot keep their story straight. NEVER have I purchased a pet from anywhere. All of my cats and dogs have been rescues or adopted from friends who could no longer care for them. Not everyone has to have a certain breed or a purebred, they don't guarantee a good, loving pet.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

mitzi said:


> But YOU ARE a back yard breeder!


See Mitzi, you completely called me out. You clearly are calling me a BYB even though you do not personally know me, or my pets. That is wrong to call someone something they're not especially only because I'm not giving out any more information. Just because I chose not to give anymore information means I'm a BYB??? Wow, that's rough. I truly have that right as a breeder to not do so. Not on this forum anyways. I can understand in people that want a pup. That makes complete sense!


----------



## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

At the end of the day, no one enjoys being labelled as a BYB. 


BYBs can love their pets. They can treat them well. They can find good homes for the puppies produced. The point is they should not be breeding in the first place if they have nothing to bring to the breed itself. You fit this label, whether you like that or not. Fact is fact here.

OP - you obviously see nothing wrong with what you're doing, but one can only hope that over time you'll learn and become more educated. It's too late for this pregnancy, but please consider spaying your dog after this. Chalk it up as a learning experience.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

mitzi said:


> This 65 yo has seen too much suffering of animals over a lifetime not to be offended by BYB who cannot keep their story straight. NEVER have I purchased a pet from anywhere. All of my cats and dogs have been rescues or adopted from friends who could no longer care for them. Not everyone has to have a certain breed or a purebred, they don't guarantee a good, loving pet.


That's wrong. Now you are finding someone else to argue with just because they don't think the same as you? Leave them alone. I know everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but it's not right to keep going on forever. Move on.



Loki Love said:


> At the end of the day, no one enjoys being labelled as a BYB.
> 
> 
> BYBs can love their pets. They can treat them well. They can find good homes for the puppies produced. The point is they should not be breeding in the first place if they have nothing to bring to the breed itself. You fit this label, whether you like that or not. Fact is fact here.
> ...


No I don't. You're judging me like some others on here. Once again...just because I'm withholding information. SAD

*Why is it so hard to understand that if you do not like my Maltese Pregnancy, then ignore it? That sounds pretty simple to me!  I did all the research and health tests that I needed to do for several years. I know what I am doing and understand all the little issues that can be involved.*


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> See Mitzi, you completely called me out. You clearly are calling me a BYB even though you do not personally know me, or my pets. That is wrong to call someone something they're not especially only because I'm not giving out any more information. Just because I chose not to give anymore information means I'm a BYB??? Wow, that's rough. I truly have that right as a breeder to not do so. Not on this forum anyways. I can understand in people that want a pup. That makes complete sense!


And I am not the first to call you a BYB. I find it very strange that you have to screen the homes of friends and family, and that just the right amount of friends and family want one of your Maltese puppies at the exact same time.

Your 3 yo dog should have been spayed over 2 years ago. I wouldn't even be surprised if this is not her first litter.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

mitzi said:


> And I am not the first to call you a BYB. I find it very strange that you have to screen the homes of friends and family, and that just the right amount of friends and family want one of your Maltese puppies at the exact same time.
> 
> Your 3 yo dog should have been spayed over 2 years ago. I wouldn't even be surprised if this is not her first litter.


It doesn't hurt one bit to screen them! I don't live in their home, I don't know how everything is set up if it's safe for a toy dog. I mean really? You seriously have something to say about that?? This is her first litter by the way. Honestly


----------



## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> No I don't. You're judging me like some others on here. Once again...just because I'm withholding information. SAD


You've given me all the information needed actually. It's pretty clear.


----------



## mitzi (Aug 3, 2010)

I'm so done with this thread, I will ignore it and leave it to the one or two who think this travesty is 'cute and exciting'.


----------



## maltesemomxoxo (Oct 26, 2010)

mitzi said:


> And I am not the first to call you a BYB. I find it very strange that you have to screen the homes of friends and family, and that just the right amount of friends and family want one of your Maltese puppies at the exact same time.
> 
> Your 3 yo dog should have been spayed over 2 years ago. I wouldn't even be surprised if this is not her first litter.


Who are you to call me at BYB anyway?


----------



## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

maltesemomxoxo said:


> You're judging me like some others on here. Once again...just because I'm withholding information. SAD
> 
> *Why is it so hard to understand that if you do not like my Maltese Pregnancy, then ignore it? That sounds pretty simple to me!  I did all the research and health tests that I needed to do for several years. I know what I am doing and understand all the little issues that can be involved.*


Why do many people here not like your "Maltese Pregnancy"? Simple: because you are whitholding information without giving a reasonable excuse for it; information respectable breeders are more than happy to share; information which is public domain anyways. Why do people withold information? As a rule, because they have something to hide. 

Now the question that begs to be asked; why would a respectable, ethical, enthusiastic breeder have anything to hide regarding their prized dogs' heritage?

I do not breed. My 3 dogs are pets, rescued and speutered. Still, people ask me regularly if my males are neutered because "they would make such cute puppies with my (insert breed here) bitch"; but my dogs do not have a pedigree, so I don't know which genetic abnormalities or diseases could lurk in their genes even though they are very healthy. As a result, I don't breed.

You come here wanting people to be enthusiastic about your dog's pregnancy and expect us to want to follow her through it, yet you refuse childishly to provide us with a reason to be happy those puppies will enter the world. This is why we keep "trying to dig up dirt" and "calling you out". In dog breeding, breeders have to prove their credentials, simple as that.

Edited to add: I am greatly enjoying this thread, mostly because it is making me learn about health tests, scores and ethical breeding. I know changing the OP's mind is quite utopical at this point, but the discussion is very interesting nonetheless.


----------



## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I would just like to say that you are a BYB.
It is a simple fact based on the information provided. 

You may never admit that it is true, but you are a BYB


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Active Dog said:


> I vote for this thread to be locked...this is a true shame to the name of the Dog Forum. Having a group of knowledgeable dog people unable to contain themselves from attacking someone they don't even know. No one here KNOWS this person is a BYB or well educated so no one should be acting like they do know. This forum will die if the members here don't get their heads out of their rears. Sorry if this offends anyone but it is true, everyone is so concerned with their view of the situation that they can't stop and think what will really make the situation better and not what makes them feel better. Chasing away people is not going to do the animals any good, people come here for information and knowledge, to share their accomplishments and failures. How is anyone supposed to be educated when they are afraid to even post? Isn't that what so many people preach here? Is to educate the public on overpopulation, shelters, and dogs in general? Well a fair job everyone is doing! I wouldn't want to be taught by someone who was attacking me either, people can't learn from angry opinions.


I tried politely helping. She doesn't want help, so why would I (or anyone else?) continue helping. She's in her own dilusional world, and quite frankly, I'd rather interrogate and accuse her now that try to help anymore. 



BooLette said:


> Hey, DJ where'd your GSD come from? Most likely nowhere like a reputable breeder or a shelter since you only just recently turned 18, right?
> 
> There are so many people on this forum that say I got XYZ dog from a pet store, byb, puppy mill, ect BUT NOW I KNOW BETTER! I call major Bull****. Mighty hypocritical, since you don't know how much this person 'knows better'. Jumping down there throat because you want to jump on the dog forum bash the new person with a pregnant dog band wagon. Honestly, I agree with Willowy 100%.
> 
> ...


I act helpful and explain what we think and I'm attacking? THAT is bull****. YOU are attacking more than I have, so don't give me that. And WTH does it matter where my dog came from? That has nothing to do with this. And don't bring my age into it, I'm sick and TIRED of that bs. If you want to be rude, I can be too. I've saved dozens of dogs in shelters, rescues, in my free time, and even some cats. You euthanize them for a living. Very commendable. *thumbsup*

Oh, and you didn't grow up knowing about backyard breeders? You just said that's major BS. How would you feel if I told YOU that you were buying byb dogs and should be stoned for it? I did it ONCE, found out it was crappy, and it wasn't even MY money that bought him, so don't play _that_ card with me. You're no better than I am. You kill dogs and support backyard breeders, apparently. 



maltesemomxoxo said:


> I thought this site was going to be nice and helpful. But with all the interrogating, it isn't helping me one bit. The only way you would truly know hoe good of a person is with their pets, is to literally live with them and their pets. I just wanted to share my excitement with other people that care. And if you're going to assume I'm a BYB just because I don't want to give you every single bit of information, then so be it..that's just your choice. But don't sit here and keep going on and on and trying to dig more dirt from me. I already stated I'm not going to give anything else out. So leave it at that.
> 
> This is for the ones that want to interrogate and question every little detail by the way.


Unfortunately, most people on this site do not care about backyard breeders. In fact, we usually feel the exact opposite about them. 



maltesemomxoxo said:


> I don't need the acceptance from you. For all I know, you can just be some person down the street. I don't know. How about I do a whole check on you and ask you every little detail just because you own pets?


Want to go ahead? You can call my vet and find out how well I take care of mine, you can call my work and all the rescue organizations I volunteer with and find out just how much good I'm doing and contributing to dogs to keep them OUT of shelters. 



Willowy said:


> No. I don't think conformation showing has anything to do with anything, except being an interesting hobby for people who like that sort of thing. It's too dependent on politics, who you know, and what color the judge prefers. With very little to do with producing physically and tempermentally sound dogs. Anybody can read the breed standard and breed to that standard.
> 
> For the record, I didn't say "most" show breeders. . .but those I have met do not really care about their dogs _individually_. They care about what that dog can win for them, or what kind of puppies that dog can produce, or some other show-related thing that has nothing to do with the dogs individually. They "dispose" of mismarks and dogs not able to breed. And they certainly don't care about dogs in general. Most of them (in my experience, remember, don't jump all over the generalization) would be perfectly happy if every dog in the world except for their dogs dropped dead. They think mutts should be drowned at birth and shelter dogs should all be killed. And there are some serious welfare concerns in certains breeds, especially, in which they deliberately breed for certain genetic traits (Dalmatian spots or merling) that also cause disabilities, and then kill the puppies who are born with those disabilities. So, no, I wouldn't support someone like that ever.
> 
> And even if I were to believe that showing is the only way to produce good dogs, there were, what, about a million dogs registered with the AKC last year? And over 7 million dogs are needed to replace the dogs who die of old age every year. So, yes, purebred dogs would go extinct if not for non-show breeders. It's better to have non-show breeders who health test and treat their dogs decently than to leave it to the puppymills to produce the puppies everybody wants.


You seem to be very mis-informed. 

I really hate the people that think show dogs are the only way to go and that mutts suck. I also really hate the people that think mutts rock and show dogs (and showing in general) is pointless and shouldn't happen. *sigh* 

I'm done with this thread. I hope it gets locked.


----------



## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

OP obviously has something to hide.
Sorry that you think you are not a BYB OP as you are.
You may not be a bad person, or a bad pet owner, but you are a BYB.

I hope this thread gets locked too.


----------

