# Training Challenges



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I know we have the support group thread, which is great, but I feel like sometimes things get lost in there because a lot of it is focused on agility. So I thought we could use a place to vent about the obstacles we encounter, and to solicit/offer helpful advice for basic training & obedience.

My current issue is jumping. She was great about this early on in her training, but she seems to have regressed. When initially encountering someone (whether it's me coming home from work, or a friend coming into the house, etc.), she knows not to jump. But once she's touched/petted, she forgets and starts jumping again immediately. It is becoming a bit of a problem because she's a heavy dog and she is handsy - so I often get scrapes and bruises on my arms from deflecting her. I do knee her in the chest but it doesn't phase her. Saying "NO" doesn't phase her. My latest tactic has been to just lay her down on the ground until she is still (usually a few seconds). But then she jumps right back up again, excited. In that case, I'll put her in "time out" on her bed for a few minutes and she usually calms down a bit. But I really want to get her to not jump on people AT ALL!

Any tips/tricks on how to manage this? I know she understands she is not supposed to jump because her initial greeting is generally pretty good. Thanks!


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Yeah, stop kneeing your dog! I don't know where that got started, but the potential for damage to your knee cap (which isn't really that sturdy) is huge, and it's either going to hurt your dog or not work, as you've seen.

Train her to sit during greetings and increase the length of the sit over time. When she jumps on you and paws at you (which she will until she gets the idea,) ignore her. Slowly walk away if you must, but usually just refusing to move or look at her will do the trick, if you wait long enough.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

What we've done in class is to have the dog on a shortish leash sitting next to the owner. Someone (instructor or other class member) begins to approach the owner and continues walking forward _only_ if the dog remains sitting. If the dog moves, the instructor retreats. The process is repeated until the dog remains sitting for the duration of a pleasant greeting (very quick at first, but longer as the dog's understanding increases) between the instructor and owner. Any time the dog is successful (i.e., the instructor can approach, say "hello," and leave without the dog moving), s/he is reinforced. 

In your case, you could begin to include petting or greetings directed towards your dog once she's good with someone approaching and greeting you. I'd start very slowly with someone (or you) making eye contact and _slowly_ progress in small increments to actual petting.

Another approach is Kikopup's How to stop your puppy jumping up!

Also, check out the impulse control thread (imu control resources) that Laurelin started and things like Doggy Zen and It's Yer Choice.

It sounds as though your current approach is exciting her more and unlikely to be effective (and could very well make the situation worse).


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Responding to her physically exuberant greeting with a physical response is likely to get her even more excited & jumpy. Many large dogs love that type of 'play' (much more than their bruised owners!)

For greeting YOU - when you first arrive home I'd suggest completely ignoring her for 10 - 15 minutes, or as long as it takes, until she *completely* relaxes & settles down. Then call her over for a low-key greeting - some gentle ear rubs or chin scritching. If you *need* to attend to her in some way (potty outing?) then do it calmly & quietly with as little talking, eye contact, etc... as possible to accomplish the task at hand, then go to total ignoring for a little while. The goal being to make your return home a boring, matter-of-fact thing, not some big celebratory event. 

For greeting others/guests, I'd keep her on leash so you can prevent the jumping up (stand on the leash if necessary). Instruct your guests to also ignore her the same way you do, until she settles down completely - then they can greet her quietly. 

You can also drop treats on the floor *before* she starts to jump - right before she starts *thinking* of jumping up, preferably - to keep her feet on the floor & her focus off of the human. Several small bits dropped in a row very often will diffuse the excitement of leaping/greeting, and replace it with "wow - when humans come in I should sniff around on the floor for treats"


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> Any tips/tricks on how to manage this? I know she understands she is not supposed to jump because her initial greeting is generally pretty good. Thanks!


The problem is that she doesn't understand. Sure, she understands not to jump right away, but she hasn't learned not to jump after that. Somehow she's being reinforced for jumping after the initial greeting. I would either leave the house again as soon as she jumps, wait a second, then come in and do the greeting again. Or, if it's a visitor, have her on leash and have the visitor back out of her reach and ignore her every time she jumps (you could also tether the leash to something which is often more consistent than trying to hold on).


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks everyone... I do currently ignore her when I get home from work. That is still a holdover from her initial training - don't pet until four feet are on the ground and she's calm. So that works... temporarily. She appears to be "totally relaxed" so then I give her attention (CALM attention!) and she goes nuts. The knee in the chest was something I was trying based on some recommendations from a local trainer at my obedience school. It doesn't do anything but egg her on, apparently, but it DOES deflect her from crashing full-on into me so I struggle with not having that be a knee-jerk reaction on my part (pun intended). I will stop that and see how it goes.
The hardest part, and I'm sure you all have experienced this, is training your friends. That is still difficult at times but I'm typically telling people "don't pet her or give her attention until she's calm" and that works maybe 75% of the time but honestly a lot of people are like PUPPYYYYYYY and can't seem to help themselves! LOL! But it does tend to put her training backwards a bit when this happens.

The only thing that has shown any real effect is the time-out on her bed approach. But it's still not resulting in the behavior I want - most things she picks up right away, so I feel like she's just being stubborn on this one! Haha.

I think I'll try some of these approaches when I get home tonight. My normal "I'm ignoring you until you settle down", then after her predictable bonkers stage, continue ignoring her (which is easier said than done if I want to avoid injury!). Maybe go out then in again. I might try the treats on the ground approach. We typically treat-train when learning new things but I haven't really given her treats lately with greetings so I should re-visit that and see if she's more eager to work on that behavior. 
Also, she really can't stand it when I come in and give the hubs a greeting kiss - always trying to get in the middle of it! I will try one thing at a time though, as I don't want to overwhelm her with too many conflicting "instructions".

I haven't been to obedience class these last two sessions because of life events (series of funerals and weddings and out of town travel), but it's clear that we need to get back to class because she's starting to slip a bit despite me working with her daily still. Maybe I'm boring her, working on the same old stuff every day. Ideally I'd like to pursue a CGC title so I really want to get a handle on this greeting thing. Oh, also - when we do practice this in class, she's super focused and performs perfectly. She's also great when she knows we're in full-on "training" mode. It's when we get outside of class or in other environments when she gets a little crazy, and when I get home at night. (Sometimes it will be a half an hour after I get home before I pet her for the first time but it still doesn't seem to help the after-pet part)

Thanks everyone, I'll try some of this out and report back.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> The hardest part, and I'm sure you all have experienced this, is training your friends. That is still difficult at times but I'm typically telling people "don't pet her or give her attention until she's calm" and that works maybe 75% of the time but honestly a lot of people are like PUPPYYYYYYY and can't seem to help themselves! LOL! But it does tend to put her training backwards a bit when this happens.


If my friends are going to encourage it, I let Watson nut-punch them when they come over. lol I am pretty loose about jumping though, maybe because I have smaller dogs. If I know people won't want to be jumped on I gate the dogs into another room until they are calmer, and then let them out. And the people who don't want to be jumped on generally ignore them which helps.




> I haven't been to obedience class these last two sessions because of life events (series of funerals and weddings and out of town travel), but it's clear that we need to get back to class because she's starting to slip a bit despite me working with her daily still. Maybe I'm boring her, working on the same old stuff every day. Ideally I'd like to pursue a CGC title so I really want to get a handle on this greeting thing. Oh, also - when we do practice this in class, she's super focused and performs perfectly. She's also great when she knows we're in full-on "training" mode. It's when we get outside of class or in other environments when she gets a little crazy, and when I get home at night. (Sometimes it will be a half an hour after I get home before I pet her for the first time but it still doesn't seem to help the after-pet part)


It sounds like she doesn't realize that any time can be training time. At first I keep treats randomly around the house and reward things that I like. With my adult dog I can tell him "yes!" while we're anywhere in the house and then run down to the fridge to get him a treat. When they realize that treats are always on the table, they tend to pay more attention to what they think might be reinforced.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Actually we have a saying in our house: "training never stops". I almost ALWAYS have treats in my pocket when I'm home, and we keep a jar full on the kitchen counter for easy access. But I've been weaning her from the treats on skills that are solid (sit, short stays, etc.) so maybe it is just too soon for that? And when I just get home from work, obviously that's one of those times I don't have a treat handy to properly reward her for good behavior - maybe "YES" isn't enough for her on that particular skill set, and that is part of the problem with her reactions. (I find myself saying YES! NO! YES! AHHHH) Hmm... lots of food for thought here, folks!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> Actually we have a saying in our house: "training never stops". I almost ALWAYS have treats in my pocket when I'm home, and we keep a jar full on the kitchen counter for easy access. But I've been weaning her from the treats on skills that are solid (sit, short stays, etc.) so maybe it is just too soon for that? And when I just get home from work, obviously that's one of those times I don't have a treat handy to properly reward her for good behavior - maybe "YES" isn't enough for her on that particular skill set, and that is part of the problem with her reactions. (I find myself saying YES! NO! YES! AHHHH) Hmm... lots of food for thought here, folks!


Well, you said she's good right when you walk in the door, so I would walk in, wait for her to sit, then say "yes!" and run to get treats. 

I would start with just walking out the door again, but might try treats after that.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

So last night I got home, ignored her as usual at first, and she sat nicely... just watching me. Before doing anything, I went to the treat jar then gave her a "yes" with treat while doing my "settle" move (stroking her sloooowly from head to tail). Then as she popped up I just said "uh uh" and pointed away from me. She did awesome and didn't jump at all (treats are key?). So that went really well. THEN a friend came over. OMG she was SOOOO excited. I asked him to ignore her, which he did. But she would NOT sit - just so frantic trying to get over there, wouldn't actually look at me or anything. I finally just stepped in front of her face and made her "look" and sit. When she did so, I gave her a treat and let her go. Like a horse out of a gate! She kept trying to jump on his lap, I'd say "off" and she'd get off but she was still super excited. It took about 20 minutes for her to totally calm down to where I said he could pet her, then she got all excited again. So... some progress, but still need work on friend greetings. She just LOVES everyone so enthusiastically!


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

TGKvr said:


> So last night I got home, ignored her as usual at first, and she sat nicely... just watching me. Before doing anything, I went to the treat jar then gave her a "yes" with treat while doing my "settle" move (stroking her sloooowly from head to tail). Then as she popped up I just said "uh uh" and pointed away from me. She did awesome and didn't jump at all (treats are key?). So that went really well. THEN a friend came over. OMG she was SOOOO excited. I asked him to ignore her, which he did. But she would NOT sit - just so frantic trying to get over there, wouldn't actually look at me or anything. I finally just stepped in front of her face and made her "look" and sit. When she did so, I gave her a treat and let her go. Like a horse out of a gate! She kept trying to jump on his lap, I'd say "off" and she'd get off but she was still super excited. It took about 20 minutes for her to totally calm down to where I said he could pet her, then she got all excited again. So... some progress, but still need work on friend greetings. She just LOVES everyone so enthusiastically!


Well, training is pretty much always a 'work in progress', is it not? lol Glad you saw improvements in greetings towards you - that's always the first step. Unfortunately for a highly social dog that LOVES people, strangers are a HUGE exciting distraction.

I'd suggest keeping her on leash when someone comes in. That way you can manage her behavior without having to constantly repeat yourself. You & the friend can still ignore her, she'll just be leashed at your side/feet while you do so. Once you feel she's ready to greet, then slowly walk her over towards the friend. If she starts to run, lunge, jump or pull with too much excitement - "oops" walk her back away & sit down again (returning to ignoring) until she settles again. Rinse & repeat. 

Do you think it would be helpful, once she's settled a bit, that instead of having the guest pet her (which you know just gets her all riled up) have them go get a treat or two & ask her for a couple of simple behaviors that they could reward? sit/down/whatever is easy & she's solid on? Might be a different option to try?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Totally agree with the leash suggestion. Don't let her practice the jumping behavior at all. Even if he's ignoring her, she's still self-reinforcing because jumping is fun when you're so excited. Keep the leash a consistent length so your friend can easily step out of range if she tries to jump, and approach again as she's sitting.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Oh I forgot to mention... I did have her on a leash at first, and when I let her go (after she was able to actually sit, look at me, and was a little calmed down), he DID tell her to sit when she came bouncing up to him, which she did. For a hot second. In fact, she'd sit every time we told her to sit after the initial excitement, but then just popped right back up trying to jump. He was sitting in a tall counter-height chair, not standing, and she was trying to climb in his lap! But perhaps I need to keep the leash on longer in this situation, and stand on it to keep her from the upwards momentum. Premature release was the problem perhaps, LOL! Eventually she got to where she'd sit, all four feet on the ground, staring up at him desperately but sort of bouncing up and down from her bottom end, and you could tell she was trying REALLY hard to control herself and listen to the commands - it was pretty funny and hard not to just laugh at her. All things considered, she did OK but I think I'll be more consistent with the leash going forward.

Again, thanks a lot folks! Everyone is so helpful... I feel like I have a good handle on her training but there are just some things that are very difficult to overcome!

(Next up... re-visiting "drop it"!)

What are some of the challenges y'all encounter with your dogs, or things that you find a bit more difficult to train?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Instead of asking her to sit, I would wait her out and then reward when she chooses to do it on her own. It's likely that she thinks "I sat! I was good! Now I can jump on you again!" But if she has to make the choice on her own, and see what the consequences are (getting petted or being ignored) she will probably be a little more thoughtful.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> What are some of the challenges y'all encounter with your dogs, or things that you find a bit more difficult to train?


I can't really think of anything that hasn't been gone over in the other training thread a million times. Mostly just Watson getting completely overstimulated and being unable to work off leash away from home.

Hazel is perfect.

It helps that I have pretty low expectations for basic manners. I don't care if they jump on me or steal stuff (I pick everything up anyway)


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Instead of asking her to sit, I would wait her out and then reward when she chooses to do it on her own. It's likely that she thinks "I sat! I was good! Now I can jump on you again!" But if she has to make the choice on her own, and see what the consequences are (getting petted or being ignored) she will probably be a little more thoughtful.


Hmm... you're probably right there. I will try that next time.

Also, sorry if it seems this thread repeats the "support group" thread... I just felt a little lost in the other thread as it seems mostly agility-related and used by the same few folks.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> Hmm... you're probably right there. I will try that next time.
> 
> Also, sorry if it seems this thread repeats the "support group" thread... I just felt a little lost in the other thread as it seems mostly agility-related and used by the same few folks.


You're not alone, I got that after a time as well. Maybe we need a sport and a non-sport training issues threads?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree with the suggestion for keeping her leashed to prevent practicing undesired behavior and having her make decisions on her own. Also, keep your expectations realistic. She's young, excitable, and social; it's very likely that she finds interacting with people as or more reinforcing than treats. This would be a good opportunity for using the Premack principle. 



> What are some of the challenges y'all encounter with your dogs, or things that you find a bit more difficult to train?


Not dog related: my husband. My second husband will need advanced obedience titles before any commitments are made. 



> You're not alone, I got that after a time as well. Maybe we need a sport and a non-sport training issues threads?


I'd participate in that.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> You're not alone, I got that after a time as well. Maybe we need a sport and a non-sport training issues threads?


Yeah, non-sport would be more my speed.  I have absolutely ZERO competitive sport drive myself, so I have no interest in showing, trialing, or anything of that sort. And the dogs I work with at the shelter, well, let's just say that basic manners are at the forefront of what we work on - for obvious necessity! lol


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> Also, sorry if it seems this thread repeats the "support group" thread... I just felt a little lost in the other thread as it seems mostly agility-related and used by the same few folks.


I think that thread has just kind of evolved into its own thing and a lot of times it's just ranting or bragging or whatever little thing that people don't want to start a new thread for. I don't necessarily expect people to respond if I post a little thing on that thread; sometimes it's just nice to get it out there. It's totally ok to create a new thread if you have something specific and need advice and it's lost over there. I think it keeps things more clear to just start a new thread.

ETA: I also think the people on that thread, like me and CptJack, have a lot of similar issues that we can kind of sympathize about and talk through. With stuff like basic manners, I don't have much to add because my dogs are hooligans and I don't even care a lot of the time. lol When it's specific questions I usually have ideas, but I don't really sympathize that much with a lot of stuff because I'm like "Yeah, my dogs do that too, it just doesn't bother me" vs the reactive stuff or sports problems where I'm like "yeah, my dog does that too and I've put in so much work to fix it and it drives me nuts".


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I think that thread has just kind of evolved into its own thing and a lot of times it's just ranting or bragging or whatever little thing that people don't want to start a new thread for. I don't necessarily expect people to respond if I post a little thing on that thread; sometimes it's just nice to get it out there. It's totally ok to create a new thread if you have something specific and need advice and it's lost over there. I think it keeps things more clear to just start a new thread.


Yeah, this. At this point it's just a training related 'general rants' thread (like the one in the General Forum) and sometimes only loosely training related. People talk about stuff, sometimes there are questions and side discussions about whatever, sometimes there aren't and it's a bit dead. Some of it's agility related, a lot of it isn't. It's just 'whatever wasn't worth a thread of it's own'. The more recent stuff is, though a lot of it's also Molly's reactivity stuff. Definitely more than fine to start a new thread when something gets lost. Or when it doesn't and because you want to. Whatever. Not like there's a thread number limit.

(General training weakness? I SUCK at teaching watch me. IDEK how that's possible, but it is)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> (General training weakness? I SUCK at teaching watch me. IDEK how that's possible, but it is)


I get around that by never ever training it.

That's not true I guess, I do teach an offered focus/eye contact thing, but I don't put it on cue. I figure if the dog is engaged and paying attention he's going to make eye contact. If he's not, saying "watch me" isn't going to make him suddenly engaged, even if he does turn his eyes towards me. I know different people have different philosophies about that.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I can see a use for it and I'd really really like to have it - particularly with Molly where I think if I could grab her eyes in most situations I'd grab her actual attention. Unfortunately my timing sucks or something because the dog has no idea what I'm trying to get her to do at all, or what I'm rewarding for. 

I never managed with Kylie or Thud, either, but I didn't really care all that much. (In truth I think I still don't care all that much).


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think a lot of the discussion in that thread is just... very technical and/or high level stuff? At least most of the times I've peaked in it's been that way. Not by necessity or design but it kind of has developed into that. 

I can easily see how someone who is newer to training or doesn't have as technical/nit picky of a problem as sports can bring up would feel like their issue didn't belong in that thread, or just generally feel out of place.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I can see a use for it and I'd really really like to have it - particularly with Molly where I think if I could grab her eyes in most situations I'd grab her actual attention. Unfortunately my timing sucks or something because the dog has no idea what I'm trying to get her to do at all, or what I'm rewarding for.
> 
> I never managed with Kylie or Thud, either, but I didn't really care all that much. (In truth I think I still don't care all that much).


I taught Hazel by just marking when she made eye contact, then upping the ante by holding food out to the side, waiting for her to make eye contact, and then marking and rewarding. She learned it extremely quickly at 9 weeks of age and it's become a default behavior, but part of that is just her personality. She will just sit there and stare daggers at me if she doesn't know what else to do.

I've done similar things with Watson and I do have a cue to turn back and make eye contact (his name basically) but if the environment is too hard for him he will make eye contact but he can't hold it and I know he's not engaged. 

My biggest issue with putting it on cue is that most people tend to say "watch me!" when their dog is doing the opposite of watching them, and then it turns into "watch me! watch me! watch me!" and you can't enforce it the way you can a sit or something. It's very easy for a dog to tune it out and ignore it when they aren't able to comply. And I've seen dogs heel with eye contact who are clearly not "with" their handler - they are making eye contact because it was trained heavily, but their brains are out in the environment.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I can easily see how someone who is newer to training or doesn't have as technical/nit picky of a problem as sports can bring up would feel like their issue didn't belong in that thread, or just generally feel out of place.


But then they can just start a new thread. No problem with that.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> But then they can just start a new thread. No problem with that.


Again, unless they don't feel their issue is really needing a whole thread.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

But now we have a place for both and the option of creating new threads is still there?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Again, unless they don't feel their issue is really needing a whole thread.


If other people came over to the other thread it wouldn't just be CptJack and I talking at each other. lol It's just turned into that I think because nobody else was posting there.

Alla has posted there a bunch about basic stuff. You guys can come over and start whatever random convos you want. We're not trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable, and it doesn't just have to be about sports, but if nobody but us posts anything most of the time then we're just going to talk about weird agility stuff that we're working on.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Well can we just make this thread a new training thread for more basic obedience type stuff? Is there a way to change topic titles?

I use "look" instead of "watch me" and she has a wonderful response with it but doesn't hold it for long before she gets bored and growly. Probably because I usually follow up "look" with another command, so she thinks that something else should be coming more quickly. I like to see how long she'll maintain eye contact... turns out, not that long. LOL!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And sometimes things are going to be lost no matter where they're posted honestly? I mean... I didn't offer help over there because HECK if I know how to keep a dog from jumping up. My dogs jump up. I don't have anything meaningful to contribute to that. 

Nor do I have an issue with people making other threads. I do kind of resent the implication that there's something 'wrong' with the way that thread works or the people in it talking about what they're talking about (Alla was huge in it, we've had other people post quite a bit too) or it's some deliberate attempt to freeze people out. If someone's uncomfortable I'm sorry, but... I don't really know what exactly it is I'm supposed to do about it except go off to the agility thread and only talk there.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> If other people came over to the other thread it wouldn't just be CptJack and I talking at each other. lol It's just turned into that I think because nobody else was posting there.
> 
> Alla has posted there a bunch about basic stuff. You guys can come over and start whatever random convos you want. We're not trying to make anyone feel uncomfortable, and it doesn't just have to be about sports, but if nobody but us posts anything most of the time then we're just going to talk about weird agility stuff that we're working on.


I wasn't trying to imply that I was uncomfortable in that thread (I find some of it really interesting), but I think I agree that the conversations there tend to be a bit more high-level regarding specific skill sets. I'll get there one day with my pup but right now we're still focused on the basics, or at least the more advanced of the basic skills if that makes sense. I did mention about the jumping over there, and no one responded... but I just read it back and it wasn't very clear I was actually asking for help sooo... probably my fault there.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I taught Hazel by just marking when she made eye contact, then upping the ante by holding food out to the side, waiting for her to make eye contact, and then marking and rewarding. She learned it extremely quickly at 9 weeks of age and it's become a default behavior, but part of that is just her personality. She will just sit there and stare daggers at me if she doesn't know what else to do.
> 
> I've done similar things with Watson and I do have a cue to turn back and make eye contact (his name basically) but if the environment is too hard for him he will make eye contact but he can't hold it and I know he's not engaged.
> 
> My biggest issue with putting it on cue is that most people tend to say "watch me!" when their dog is doing the opposite of watching them, and then it turns into "watch me! watch me! watch me!" and you can't enforce it the way you can a sit or something. It's very easy for a dog to tune it out and ignore it when they aren't able to comply. And I've seen dogs heel with eye contact who are clearly not "with" their handler - they are making eye contact because it was trained heavily, but their brains are out in the environment.


Molly has great voluntary eye-contact about 90% of the time. Probably 95% of the time. But man, there is something off in my mechanics but it's still not on a cue and she still doesn't know what the deal is. Not sure whether it would help with focusing her or not, but it seemed like such a nice, easy, way to have her 'do something' that didn't involve a lot of movement or effort from her in a physical way. Maybe I'll just try stays or something? Or accept that sometimes I lose her and work to figure out whatever the heck works for her to get her back. I honestly just don't know.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I always think "watch me" and "look" are a little funny in that we're always told that making direct eye contact with dogs can be taken as aggressive behavior, then we turn around and teach them to hold eye contact...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> I wasn't trying to imply that I was uncomfortable in that thread (I find some of it really interesting), but I think I agree that the conversations there tend to be a bit more high-level regarding specific skill sets. I'll get there one day with my pup but right now we're still focused on the basics, or at least the more advanced of the basic skills if that makes sense. I did mention about the jumping over there, and no one responded... but I just read it back and it wasn't very clear I was actually asking for help sooo... probably my fault there.


We only talk about that stuff because we're the only ones talking and that stuff comes to mind. I read a lot of technical training stuff though my adult dog is a spazz and my other dog is a baby - it's not like we're running high level agility or anything. Anybody can take anything over there, no matter how basic. I mean, I'm training a 4.5 month old puppy - it doesn't get much more basic than that. We're still working short stays and getting down solidly on cue and stuff like that. 

And yeah, sometimes things get missed, so then just post it again or start another thread (like you ended up doing). No biggie.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Molly has great voluntary eye-contact about 90% of the time. Probably 95% of the time. But man, there is something off in my mechanics but it's still not on a cue and she still doesn't know what the deal is. Not sure whether it would help with focusing her or not, but it seemed like such a nice, easy, way to have her 'do something' that didn't involve a lot of movement or effort from her in a physical way. Maybe I'll just try stays or something? Or accept that sometimes I lose her and work to figure out whatever the heck works for her to get her back. I honestly just don't know.


I'm trying something new with Hazel - I'm being totally zen and letting her come back on her own. I spent Watson's whole life calling him back and asking him to work with me and it hasn't gotten me anywhere. One thing I've thought about a lot with the Engagement class I'm in (and a lot of the FB discussions around it) is that my dog needs to choose to work and push me. Of course it's easier with Hazel because I'm confident she will choose me relatively quickly, and I know that Watson can go a full hour without choosing me. But I'm trying really hard not to call or back or give her cues or do anything when she turns and stares at another dog or a bird or whatever, other than to practice recall sometimes. I just wait her out and mark when she turns back.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Well FWIW I actually have learned a few things from the other thread. I've trained dogs before, but it has been a long time and we always just did obedience, never any agility or rally or anything like that. So some of the terms were new to me, such as "marking" etc. I've had to do some googling to figure out what the heck people were talking about! And I *am* interested because after the next obedience session I'd like to try an intro to agility with my dog. (People say she's too heavy but I've seen this breed work in many different areas, including agility sooo... I think it's worth a shot for something fun and different) So no worries... On the whole I find everyone on the forums to be very helpful no matter the thread you're in at the time. At the same time, well here we are with this new thread so carry on! 

Basic problems and troubleshooting, here we go.


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## Nissa M (Nov 3, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> I'm trying something new with Hazel - I'm being totally zen and letting her come back on her own. I spent Watson's whole life calling him back and asking him to work with me and it hasn't gotten me anywhere. One thing I've thought about a lot with the Engagement class I'm in (and a lot of the FB discussions around it) is that my dog needs to choose to work and push me. Of course it's easier with Hazel because I'm confident she will choose me relatively quickly, and I know that Watson can go a full hour without choosing me. But I'm trying really hard not to call or back or give her cues or do anything when she turns and stares at another dog or a bird or whatever, other than to practice recall sometimes. I just wait her out and mark when she turns back.


This seems to me the very best way to get a dog to want to look at/be with/work with you. It just makes so much sense. I spent the better part of Pai's puppyhood trying to force food rewards down his throat when he chose good things like making voluntary eye contact, or looking at/retuning to me on a long-line walk on the trails, believing so much this was the way to help reinforce his behaviour. But even with the best foods - steak, cheese, liver! - he'd usually not even swallow it, even if I put it literally inside of his mouth,if there was anything even remotely interesting going on. This is not to say he didn't offer eye contact, or to look/come back to me on a walk, or whatever. He actually does this frequently and pretty naturally. It was just really tough reinforce that with food.

Although I still really struggle with this a lot, I eventually figured out that life rewards were way more powerful than anything else for my dog. Greeting that person. Running ahead. Even drinking from the water bowl is more rewarding to him than steak is. What a weirdo. I fumble a lot with how to apply these types of rewards, though, still, especially in cases where I don't want him to have access to that rewarding thing at all (i.e. a dog on the street). It becomes then a matter of finding the next best thing... 

Toys are a possibility. Still only about a 5 or 6 on a scale of 10, but I hope to get some help in private lessons with building his interest in toys. 

Do any of you have dogs who aren't particularly food motivated and how do you use other types of rewards into your training?


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## Nissa M (Nov 3, 2014)

Also, great thread for general training talk


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Nissa M said:


> This seems to me the very best way to get a dog to want to look at/be with/work with you. It just makes so much sense. I spent the better part of Pai's puppyhood trying to force food rewards down his throat when he chose good things like making voluntary eye contact, or looking at/retuning to me on a long-line walk on the trails, believing so much this was the way to help reinforce his behaviour. But even with the best foods - steak, cheese, liver! - he'd usually not even swallow it, even if I put it literally inside of his mouth,if there was anything even remotely interesting going on. This is not to say he didn't offer eye contact, or to look/come back to me on a walk, or whatever. He actually does this frequently and pretty naturally. It was just really tough reinforce that with food.
> 
> Although I still really struggle with this a lot, I eventually figured out that life rewards were way more powerful than anything else for my dog. Greeting that person. Running ahead. Even drinking from the water bowl is more rewarding to him than steak is. What a weirdo. I fumble a lot with how to apply these types of rewards, though, still, especially in cases where I don't want him to have access to that rewarding thing at all (i.e. a dog on the street). It becomes then a matter of finding the next best thing...
> 
> ...


I do reward her heavily with food or toys or personal play when she turns back. I rarely let her interact with whatever she was interested in, especially not other dogs if she's on leash (no dog meeting on leash if I can help it). But then she's reasonably high drive about food and toys so that works for her.

I tried the life rewards with Watson and I think it came back to bite me. Not that they don't work, but I don't think I did it right for him. I would wait for quick eye contact, then reward by letting him go sniff what he wanted. Now he thinks if he wants something (like to go to a specific spot to sniff or whatever) he just has to make quick eye contact and I have to let him go. If I don't let him go he gets more and more frustrated and insistent and starts to whine and flip out. So we're kind of done with life rewards for the moment (except for waiting to go out doors and things like that). I'm trying to teach him that sometimes you just don't get what you want, the world is not available to you, tough. Might as well stop whining about it. It's trying my patience though. Haha. 

As a result, I'm using life rewards a ton less for Hazel. You can re-focus on me? Awesome, let's play and do something fun together because I'm not going to release you to do whatever thing you were just trying to do. But like I said, she's easy to engage once she does reorient to me, so it's very easy to do this method of training. And she doesn't amp up more when she gets to stare at something she really wants.

As far as other motivators, it's really tough. When Watson is interested in the environment he'll take food, but he doesn't really care or want it. It helps if I'm exciting with the food, and move around a lot and make him chase it, but not always. He won't look at toys at all outside most of the time. It's really hard to work with him when he's like that, so I sympathize. There are definitely lots of things you can do to build toy drive if you think Pai might work for a toy. Dogs who work for toys are awesome.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My issue with Molly is basically that she is crazy handler focus 95% of the time and DOES push for work, but God help me if I'm not offering work right now because once the environment has her (or something in it does) getting her back is freaking impossible. It's just a stare fest (or a reactive one) and there is no breaking through. I've never had to 'ask' for her attention outside those specific 'Oh look, now I'm 'frozen' by whatever' moments in my life. I need to stop asking then, though, since she's clearly not capable fo it when that's happening. If I have her first, if we're working or playing, nothing and I mean NOTHING breaks her focus, but trying to get it back once she's focused on something else is just heck. 

I think I'm going to have to play with it. I might actually try down stays or something so she's 'working' even when I need to be doing something besides actively engaging her. Her finding her own point of focus/fixation is just dangerous.

And there are other rewards. Building toy drive is great. I use personal play as a reward for Thud and I can not tell you how much realizing he would work and work HARD for that as long as I didn't bore him to tears with drilling improved both our relationship and his training. He also, amazingly, works for praise. (But not food or toys. The only toys that are fun are the ones in possession of another dog, though he's improving a little with that.) I know that's rare and weird, but he actually does.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Maybe introduce a "take a break" cue? Like be working with her, and then tell her to take a break and check out the environment (totally stop making eye contact and just walk around casually with her). Then wait for her to offer focus again. Then if she checks out on her own, tell her to "take a break" and maybe she will put the two things together and realize that she can come back from that when she's ready.

Also, border collies are notoriously sticky. I haven't had a dog like that (mine aren't even pointers) so not sure what the best thing to do when they stick. 

And I love down/stays for stuff like this.


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## Nissa M (Nov 3, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> I tried the life rewards with Watson and I think it came back to bite me. Not that they don't work, but I don't think I did it right for him. I would wait for quick eye contact, then reward by letting him go sniff what he wanted. Now he thinks if he wants something (like to go to a specific spot to sniff or whatever) he just has to make quick eye contact and I have to let him go. If I don't let him go he gets more and more frustrated and insistent and starts to whine and flip out. So we're kind of done with life rewards for the moment (except for waiting to go out doors and things like that). I'm trying to teach him that sometimes you just don't get what you want, the world is not available to you, tough. Might as well stop whining about it. It's trying my patience though. Haha.


Ya, I think its biting us too. Thankfully he reserves his flipping out for only a couple of human greetings, but in general there's an expectation that was built that if he listens to me/offers me what he thinks I want (eye contact, to walk beside me a little longer without pulling, etc) he will eventually get that thing. And if he doesn't get released to get that thing, he will usually make an attempt to sneak it if the brief offering of good behaviour doesn't free him. Ha! Thankfully he, too, is realizing that he can't always get what he wants, so will pout for a minute, or protest (lie down, not move), but eventually he gets over it and carries on. Uhhhh just thinking about it now - what a guy. I feel like I created a monster!



CptJack said:


> And there are other rewards. Building toy drive is great. I use personal play as a reward for Thud and I can not tell you how much realizing he would work and work HARD for that as long as I didn't bore him to tears with drilling improved both our relationship and his training. He also, amazingly, works for praise. (But not food or toys. The only toys that are fun are the ones in possession of another dog, though he's improving a little with that.) I know that's rare and weird, but he actually does.


I think personal play (like silly play I'm thinking) might have worked for Pai, but unfortunately I'm actually so boring. I tried a lot when he was littler and freaking out in early classes to be really exciting - I'd all but stand on my head and animate his food treats to become little dancing rodents - just to keep his attention. It was exhausting, didn't really work, and actually caused me to feel worse about the situation than in hindsight I should have. I think he's just a really externally motivated dog and perhaps a hard first dog to learn on. His genuine sweetness really goes a long way in helping me continue to want to try 

Now that I'm thinking about it, we charged up the 'touch' (to hand) command a lot during beginner Rally. Our instructor found it had become a solid reward for her dog so taught it to us all, and Pai actually came to LOVE smashing his nose into my hand. Sometimes even with a little 'yip!'. Has anyone used this as a reward?

Also, any good resources on toy play/rewards to recommend?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Nissa M said:


> Ya, I think its biting us too. Thankfully he reserves his flipping out for only a couple of human greetings, but in general there's an expectation that was built that if he listens to me/offers me what he thinks I want (eye contact, to walk beside me a little longer without pulling, etc) he will eventually get that thing. And if he doesn't get released to get that thing, he will usually make an attempt to sneak it if the brief offering of good behaviour doesn't free him. Ha! Thankfully he, too, is realizing that he can't always get what he wants, so will pout for a minute, or protest (lie down, not move), but eventually he gets over it and carries on. Uhhhh just thinking about it now - what a guy. I feel like I created a monster!


Sounds exactly like Watson! I wish I could go back to the days I hadn't heard about Premack. I'm sure there are good ways to use it, but obviously I did not use it correctly, or maybe it wasn't a good idea for my dog. It sounds so simple and easy, but it can really create a dog who is only giving you the time of day so you'll release him into the environment, and if he doesn't get released he gets very frustrated because you've set him up to think that's a reasonable expectation.

Now when I release into the environment it's in boring areas. Like, you can go sniff if you don't want to engage with me, but we're standing in this 20ftx20ft area that is really boring. So that's not really Premack, because hopefully he realizes that sniffing the same patch of parking lot is kind of lame compared to engaging with me.



> I think personal play (like silly play I'm thinking) might have worked for Pai, but unfortunately I'm actually so boring. I tried a lot when he was littler and freaking out in early classes to be really exciting - I'd all but stand on my head and animate his food treats to become little dancing rodents - just to keep his attention. It was exhausting, didn't really work, and actually caused me to feel worse about the situation than in hindsight I should have. I think he's just a really externally motivated dog and perhaps a hard first dog to learn on. His genuine sweetness really goes a long way in helping me continue to want to try


One thing I've learned lately is that you can't compete with exciting things going on around you. Acting more excited often pushes the dog away even. You have to wait for the dog to show interest in you and *then* you get exciting. So I'll stand around being perfectly boring, but if Watson looks at me for a couple seconds, or moves towards me, I explode into excitement (running away so he can chase, or doing food games or whatever). He needs to make me be exciting. And to go along with that, the environment has to be boring enough that he eventually chooses me, like I mentioned above with the 20ftx20ft spot of parking lot that he's already spent 10min sniffing. 

But yeah, Pai sounds exactly like Watson. They are sweet, but they are not easy dogs especially as your first. I'm still trying to figure out what makes Watson tick and how to get through to him a lot of the time.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

It is very cool when a simple behavior like 'touch' turns into a reward. Sassy and Max liked leg weaving and touch so much I was able to use it to keep them engaged on the start line for an agility run where I couldn't use food. It works as a windup before taking off too. Ginger adores high 10 and it is part of her reward when she doesn't react to dogs during walks. Handy if you can give her treat then as well so you don't have to bend over!

Bucky is learning sit, touch and follow right now along with back off and sit or you aren't getting the toy or out of the pen/crate. I hope touch will be a good reward for him down the line but really dog chooses it, not us. I'm going to stick with those for right now. Down is not something he has offered at all and sit is a pretty good control for learning stay but early days for that.

I don't mind dogs jumping on me. At agility I sort of felt slighted if I went home with a clean shirt on. I greet dogs at their level which controls the head which prevents jumping. I taught Sassy to touch my hand by jumping to it, worked as she stayed off my body. Greeting dog at the head works for Bucky, my daughter refuses to do that and he is jumping up and grabbing at her. There is absolutely no way he can greet calmly at this point in his life with us, to his head or nothing for now. Max had to give me a hug but wasn't tall enough so when ready for him I would ask him to jump on the bed so we could hug. Ginger mostly goes on a tear around the house when we come home rather than jumping on us but why one could possibly mind her jumping up on you I cannot imagine.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Hi, other training thread 

Personally I don't mind the other thread. Sometimes I skim the more agility specific tangents, but a lot can be gleaned from listening to Cpt.Jack and elrohwen talk *shrug*. I guess how it can seem weird to just jump in, but that's just how threads work? Lol.

Newest game/training with Cupcake is she brings me the tennis ball--we tug over it--I get the ball and ask her to sit and/or down--I throw the ball and she brings it back, repeat until I have a tired dog. It works surprisingly well given the limited space of the apartment. I guess there is an opportunity to really work on drop it, but not a hug priority. Her downs are tons faster, more like a flop/throwing herself down. Downside is the cue for down doesn't seem to be translating over. More like "tapping the ground with the tennis ball means throw yourself into the fastest down ever!!"

Also trying to work in more find it games with their food. It's really fun to grab some kibble from the food bowl and see two dogs do synchronized Sits. Good way to burn some of Donut's puppy/teenage energy with making him run across the room for a single piece of kibble.

Also: poor dogs, really need to get more treats. No treats made the move to the apartment lol. So most training (just practicing old stuff mostly) has been with kibble and the odd bit of people food. But hey, they are working for kibble/kibble is becoming a higher value enforcer (if still low) so, win win?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Hi, other training thread
> 
> Personally I don't mind the other thread. Sometimes I skim the more agility specific tangents, but a lot can be gleaned from listening to Cpt.Jack and elrohwen talk *shrug*. I guess how it can seem weird to just jump in, but that's just how threads work? Lol.
> 
> ...


Plus, teaching it this way you're teaching a built-in retrieve-to-hand.

Okay, I have no CLUE how to stop Ida harassing Snowball, other than to separate them 100% of the time. Separating them when she's being a dillhole isn't working, and Snowball isn't correcting her even though he's obviously getting fed up with it. I'm trying to reward her using the Its Yer Choice principle but if she's over her arousal threshold she'll harass him until the cows come home. So... suggestions? Do you think it'll get better eventually if I keep working on it? Because it feels like its getting worse.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Maybe allow them chances to play/interact but keep separating when needed since Snowball doesn't correct Ida so you need to for him? Sounds frustrating but I'd be doing the same. Hopefully someone more experienced can step in 

How old is Ida now? Still young enough for a puppy pass?


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

How do I get my cat to stop ripping up furniture? We have upholstered dining room chairs and she's scratching up the fabric. She has multiple scratch posts and uses them, but will still scratch our furniture.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Man I hate that. My cat is de-clawed. Something that I wouldn't do if I ever got another cat (which I won't, at least not an inside cat...). I "inherited" her from my cousin a long, long time ago when he went to work in MS/LA after Katrina. What was supposed to be a "will you watch my cat for a few months" that turned into a "yeah I'm never taking her back so she's yours now".

I've heard good things about the Soft Paws. Maybe try that?


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I haven't thought about trying those. I wonder how cats feel about them? We keep her nails clipped short, but she can still snag them on the fabric.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

From what I understand, they've improved a lot over the years. They stay put, are easy to put on / take off, and they don't really bother the cats. At least that's what my cousin the vet tech told me so who knows. But perhaps a nice low-cost option to at least try... save some furniture?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

jade5280 said:


> I haven't thought about trying those. I wonder how cats feel about them? We keep her nails clipped short, but she can still snag them on the fabric.


Other options I've heard are putting double sided tape or tin foil over the areas they tend to scratch. makes it uncomfortable so they don't choose to do it anymore.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh yea, also you could try moving a scratching post to in front of the furniture they're scratching, it may be a location thing.

When I lived in an apt with carpet, when I first got Kallie there was one spot on the carpet in the living room she liked picking at. I moved her scratching post to that spot and boom, problem solved.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Oh yea, also you could try moving a scratching post to in front of the furniture they're scratching, it may be a location thing.
> 
> When I lived in an apt with carpet, when I first got Kallie there was one spot on the carpet in the living room she liked picking at. I moved her scratching post to that spot and boom, problem solved.


 Thanks for the advice! I'm going to try what you suggested and if that doesn't work I'll see how the softpaws work out.


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## Nissa M (Nov 3, 2014)

jade5280 said:


> Thanks for the advice! I'm going to try what you suggested and if that doesn't work I'll see how the softpaws work out.


I agree with ireth0's suggestion about moving the post, good one. Does your cat go outside? My cat was indoor for a long time and scratched up so much (including one of my grandfather's paintings on the wall). When we finally moved to a less busy street we started gradually acclimating him to outdoors and now he's a fully indoor/outdoor guy, super chill with no more scratching. Definitely a less helpful anecdote if you're not comfortable with that, but on some level I think his having a bit more excitement and stimulation in his life - that no amount of playing with me could match - made a big difference. Good luck


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

She lives indoors, but we built an enclosure outside a window so she can be outside, but she's afraid to go out there.


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## Nissa M (Nov 3, 2014)

jade5280 said:


> She lives indoors, but we built an enclosure outside a window so she can be outside, but she's afraid to go out there.


Aw, my sister did this - it was like a little outdoor kennel on the roof outside of her bedroom window. She spent a fortune and the cat doesn't use it either


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Gingerkid, I am going through this as well. Newdog, 2 year old Bucky, loves to jump on 7 year old Ginger's back and mouth/bite her. I have an exercise pen with top on so it cannot collapse or allow dogs to jump out set up in the living room. There's a thick pillow from a cuddler bed in there, a water pail clipped to the wall of the pen and some toys. 16 square feet is plenty of room for my <15 pound dogs.

Any time I think they are going to be excited Bucky is on leash to keep them apart. 

When things are calm AND I am up doing minor chores I can drop instantly they are both out and able to move freely around.

One jump and Bucky is put up with a cookie, because it obviously was time.

When G is out with my daughter on a walk B is generally is out off leash.
Whenever I feel like it I trade dogs.
Whenever I feel like it there is a short training session with dogs able to see one another, behind a closed door or even outside.
Whenever I feel like it B is out on leash hanging with me and I might drop the leash if he is not interested in G who is likely just on the sofa watching him.

I'd love for them to be good buddies and chase around the house and yard and hunt critters together and snuggle. Hoping preventing most of the obnoxious behavior myself will help, don't really want G to take things into her own teeth. Now is the time because he is brand new to us and needs to be penned anyway as he is clearly a brat. He jumps up and grabs people when overexcited, table surfs as best he can being that he is only about 12" tall, will eat food from a plate I am holding, carries shoes around and chews on them, is very leash obedient but dances out of reach off leash, wouldn't allow handling to the point he had old mats and ingrown dewclaws when he arrived. None of this bothers me but he sure isn't a sweet family dog. 

Last night there was an incident. Both dogs were out off leash and I went into the bathroom with a Bucky shadow. Ginger came looking for me and B jumped her. G went zoomies and B followed. G made the S curve around the sofa and B broadsided the pen. I'd never seen zoomies for real. G was so smug and B was put in the pen. He's back to wanting to jump her, the fun chase was between the jump and the slam so he isn't going to put it together. Zoomies won't help her much, right now she jumps on furniture and he doesn't but I am sure he is able. Might have been the one thing his previous owners got through his thick skull?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

On the topic of training challenges, I was having some issues with Hazel's stay but I think we may be through it. She has plenty of impulse control, but she would spin on her butt in order to stay facing me during a stay. Even if I just leaned left she would start picking up a paw to move with me. I tried putting a treat down on the ground to focus her, but her impulse control is good enough that she just forgot about it. The other day I tried it with her dinner, because she has to wait until released, and she did a perfect stay without moving her feet! One little treat isn't enough to phase her, but with her whole dinner down she was still as a statue even when I walked the whole way around her into heel position. Yay! She's a smart little puppy.

Also, I can't wait for her adult teeth to come in. They have been so sensitive and it really impacts how much we can play since I don't tug with her.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess this is the new thread we are (generally?) using. So, idea time (at least for Cupcake, and eventually Donut I guess).

A give/give it command which would essentially mean "let me take this from your mouth/only a very loose grip". Maybe Cupcake is already holding the tennis ball/object and then I time it to grab the ball--show treat--take ball (assuming she tries to drop the ball in anticipation?) and shove treat in mouth. Not sure if this is the *best* way so glad to hear opinions.

And then drop it=let this object in your mouth fall to the ground. So this would be she has the object in her mouth--show treat/other toy--she drops object and gets the treat.

Is this splitting hairs? Sound too confusing for both dog and trainer? I just figure if I'm playing fetch or tug a "give" might be more convenient than a "drop it".

Donut desperately needs to work on LLW--he's such a dumb teenage boy right now.

Good luck with Hazel's stays. Sounds like you have a great solution with the food bowl. She just wants higher pay


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Crimson, I think that makes sense. My girl seems to think "give" and "drop it" are the same... meaning she won't really drop something unless I'm holding it - then she'll let go. To get her to completely drop something out of her mouth is really hard. And if it's a sock? Forget it! This is another skill that has sort of regressed from the beginning... she used to be pretty good at it. Lately she's taken to gator rolling on me with the object in her mouth instead of giving it up. I guess I've slacked off.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think it's perfectly reasonable to train a give and a drop cue. That's what I do with my dogs.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Well it looks like we're having quite a few people over tomorrow night, so we're going to practice staying on leash until perfectly calm for a while before letting her loose to socialize with everyone. The hard part is going to be convincing my friend's kid that she can't touch or even LOOK at the dog until she's released! It will be a great training situation though to practice this stuff in the midst of all that excitement.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Maybe make it a game for the kid? Depending on age, it seems like making things a game/challenge is better than making something forbidden--because then you have the temptation to break to rule


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Good call! LOL!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> Well it looks like we're having quite a few people over tomorrow night, so we're going to practice staying on leash until perfectly calm for a while before letting her loose to socialize with everyone. The hard part is going to be convincing my friend's kid that she can't touch or even LOOK at the dog until she's released! It will be a *great training situation though to practice this stuff in the midst of all that excitement*.


Sounds like a good opportunity. I did something similar when we had guests: both dogs stayed on leash and got treats (my younger one is fearful, so I wanted to build a positive association with people and commotion), everyone got settled, and after about a half hour, I let them drag their leashes around and greet people. I was pleasantly surprised. Just make sure to keep your expectations realistic and have an appropriate management plan if she gets too excited. Your girl sounds like mine: _loves_ people and there's no better way to make friends than to leap up and lick some ears. 

My training challenge: rear end awareness. This has been an on-going struggle for Katie and me. I've tried a number of techniques to get her to either back up or put her rear feet on objects, but nothing seems to work. She has gotten her rear end up on a peanut in class, but I don't know that she understands how it got there.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Well it won't be the first time she's been around a bunch of people, or the first time I've had her on leash in such a situation. But honestly I probably let her go way too soon in those cases, so this time I'm going to try and wait it out until there is NO DOUBT that she's completely settled down. It's tough when people are coming in, you're giving out hugs, there are all kinds of other things going on... We'll see how that goes. And yes... she's the queen of wet willies! LOL!! Fingers crossed that we make some progress with this problem - she has been a little better this week when I get home from work so there's definitely hope!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Many fun issues with bratty Bucky.

Loudest one is with crating. He barks non stop if I am out of sight and going out without him but stops if he knows I am close by. Clearly he thinks he has trained me to come back with negative punishment, the racket stops when he knows I am close by. My issue is with the double paned closed windows I pretty much only hear him when he can hear me so I cannot stop out of range as he barks because the stinker stops at that point.

Any ideas? Mostly I don't want him to be digging at the crate and barking the whole time we are gone. You really cannot hear him unless you are within 50' or so. Hope close neighbors aren't too annoyed with the barking.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Kathyy said:


> Many fun issues with bratty Bucky.
> 
> Loudest one is with crating. He barks non stop if I am out of sight and going out without him but stops if he knows I am close by. Clearly he thinks he has trained me to come back with negative punishment, the racket stops when he knows I am close by. My issue is with the double paned closed windows I pretty much only hear him when he can hear me so I cannot stop out of range as he barks because the stinker stops at that point.
> 
> Any ideas? Mostly I don't want him to be digging at the crate and barking the whole time we are gone. You really cannot hear him unless you are within 50' or so. Hope close neighbors aren't too annoyed with the barking.


Treat & Train / Manners Minder on the down/stay setting? Use it for short periods while you leave and return, gradually increase time you're out of sight/range.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Ooo, I forget I have that handy tool! He'll love that. Slows down the barking for sure, hard to get out your best efforts when eating. Currently he is in a plastic crate, I'll have to dig out the big wire one from the garage.

Thanks!


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

TGKvr said:


> Well it won't be the first time she's been around a bunch of people, or the first time I've had her on leash in such a situation. But honestly I probably let her go way too soon in those cases, so this time I'm going to try and wait it out until there is NO DOUBT that she's completely settled down. It's tough when people are coming in, you're giving out hugs, there are all kinds of other things going on... We'll see how that goes. And yes... she's the queen of wet willies! LOL!! Fingers crossed that we make some progress with this problem - she has been a little better this week when I get home from work so there's definitely hope!


Well... we clearly need to work more on this. Put her on a leash when I heard people pulling up into the driveway, walked out there... she was just pulling and straining and she is a strong dog! I felt like I was choking her out (we use a martingale collar) but she'd sit for a hot second, then try with all her might to go see her new friends. LOL! So then I stepped on the leash, but I was distracted and she took off at full speed, flipping me a$$ over teakettle. I now have a lovely huge black bruise on my hip, on the fleshy part of my palm, and my elbow. Note to self: make sure your hold on the leash is secure! Haha! I have to admit that after that I got lazy and when the next people pulled up I just let her go out to greet them. Wouldn't you know she did great, only tried to jump at first then stayed down when asked - and everyone (mostly) did well ignoring her until she calmed down. So we need to work more on polite leash greetings. But ultimately, everyone was amazed at how well trained she really is and couldn't believe she is only a year old. So I'm doing SOMETHING right! I just need to dial back my expectations a bit and continue working on-leash. Then next obedience session we'll get back to class too, which should help.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

So we've moved into an apartment and Cupcake is being pretty chill now that we've settled in. Donut is another story and is barking, barking barking.

1. Some of it is being underexercised. We are planning a dog park run tonight. But a contributing factor is we are having issues going on regular walks/runs longer than just potty walks (10-15 minutes).

The minute we try to venture past our small apartment complex, he flips out. He whines, pulls, and will escalate to jumping and twisting. I generally cave due to concern that he may injure himself, and is obviously stressed about the situation. Any general tips? (I'm guessing this is going to be finding his threshold which is hard as it's literally zero to 9000 and still defining the invisible line).

I can deal with walking in small circles around the complex, but after one circuit he does the same thing as if we were attempting to leave the complex.

2. Any other general tips to reduce barking? I'm starting to play "find it" with their dinner instead of just letting them eat it. Any other good games/tricks to work on in small/limited space?

Would rather not go the bark collar route, but if there is not improvement that is unfortunately a possibility as we rent in a place with thin walls.

EDIT: 

Bark collar as in inside the apartment at night as a last resort (aka property management comes by with a notice or an issue with our neighbors comes up). Not a fan of them in general, but it is vaguely on the table.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Donut is the BC mix, isn't he? Or the some kind of herder mix? 

To me this doesn't sound like a barking issue. It sounds like an anxiety one, with the barking just being a symptom. Noise sensitivity and loudness in response to it is really, really common and there are a lot of noises in an apartment complex. That means you're going to have to get him exercised, but you're also going to have to work and work hard to get him comfortable in the new setting. I'd expect it to take some time.

How you handle that if there is a situation with management I don't know, since I'd be willing to bet a bark collar is going to make the situation much, much worse. My best advice there is to actually contact GoGoGypsy and ask how she handled moving her BCX into an apartment and the resultant freak out at, um, almost everything if I recall correctly but mostly sounds. She doesn't post a lot but PM notifs often land in mailboxes.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I agree with CptJack that it's an anxiety issue, not a barking issue, and the bark collar will probably make it worse. I think a lot of it will settle on its own. Watson is always unusually barky in a new loud place (hotels, apartments, etc) but he settles down within a day or week. It just might take Donut a bit longer.

Can you drive him somewhere for a longer walk? Would he be less anxious and crazy if you started your walk further away from home?


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

1. Definitely agree that a bark collar is not a fix for anxiety. It's something FI mentioned last night out of frustration from lack of sleep, and not something I'm really comfortable with unless we ?need" to (but no one has knocked on our door yet).

I could be reading Donut wrong, but in the apartment itself seems more like alert barking/boredom than anxiety. Which, herding mix, is totally understandable. And is less of an issue from what I can tell as the neighbors going out to smoke at midnight no longer calls for barking.

Inside the apartment it's more like a demand/play with me bark 90 percent of the time. He stares at me/FI/Cupcake and barks, pauses, barks. If I pick up a toy he is immediately interested.

And he has figured out how to get into our lidded trashcan. Just seems more like a bored and looking for something to do things.

2. Still going to talk to GoGoGypsy more than likely.

3. Outside is definitely anxiety/fear though. Other behaviors he'll display if we've been out too long is ears back, tail tucked, body hunched/folding in on himself. But usually a more pronounced reaction like described above (but going to be a lot more watchful).

Driving away to walk is something I'm going to give a try. 

I do want to work on building his confidence though so we can eventually walk to the nearby parks and just so Donut can be comfortable when not at home base so to speak.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

So I have a problem I'm not sure how to solve. When training, my dog has a super solid recall. She almost ALWAYS listens to me and comes right away, without delay. But when my in-laws watch her (our regular dog sitter), they say that "sometimes she comes, sometimes she doesn't". This regardless of having treats in-hand. Now she never really runs off or anything, but she likes to poke around in the woods sniffing this and that. She is just not consistent with them. How do I train her and fix this problem if it's not a problem I ever encounter myself? Most of the time when they are watching her, they stay at our family cabin in the mountains so she and their two dogs are loose to play. She's typically off-leash at my house too when we go out, as I live on acreage in the middle of nowhere.

I know, as the person primarily responsible for her training, that she'll always likely listen to me better than anyone else, but I would like her to mind other people when they are watching her. Thoughts?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> So I have a problem I'm not sure how to solve. When training, my dog has a super solid recall. She almost ALWAYS listens to me and comes right away, without delay. But when my in-laws watch her (our regular dog sitter), they say that "sometimes she comes, sometimes she doesn't". This regardless of having treats in-hand. Now she never really runs off or anything, but she likes to poke around in the woods sniffing this and that. She is just not consistent with them. How do I train her and fix this problem if it's not a problem I ever encounter myself? Most of the time when they are watching her, they stay at our family cabin in the mountains so she and their two dogs are loose to play. She's typically off-leash at my house too when we go out, as I live on acreage in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> I know, as the person primarily responsible for her training, that she'll always likely listen to me better than anyone else, but I would like her to mind other people when they are watching her. Thoughts?


I've found that if other people are inconsistent about their training, there's no much you can do. My dogs hardly listen to my husband at all (even the puppy). It's nobody's fault but his own for not being consistent and following through with things. I just let it go at this point. Keep her on a leash or long line if she's hard to catch.

If she is off leash and won't come to them, but you're confident she won't run away, I would just tell them to call the other dogs and if she doesn't come go and get her.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

TGKvr said:


> So I have a problem I'm not sure how to solve. When training, my dog has a super solid recall. She almost ALWAYS listens to me and comes right away, without delay. But when my in-laws watch her (our regular dog sitter), they say that "sometimes she comes, sometimes she doesn't". This regardless of having treats in-hand. Now she never really runs off or anything, but she likes to poke around in the woods sniffing this and that. She is just not consistent with them. How do I train her and fix this problem if it's not a problem I ever encounter myself? Most of the time when they are watching her, they stay at our family cabin in the mountains so she and their two dogs are loose to play. She's typically off-leash at my house too when we go out, as I live on acreage in the middle of nowhere.
> 
> I know, as the person primarily responsible for her training, that she'll always likely listen to me better than anyone else, but I would like her to mind other people when they are watching her. Thoughts?


YOU can't train her and fix this problem - they have to. Like... straight up, there is nothing you can do to make her listen to other people. The only way that's going to happen is if they put in the time and training to build the relationship and reward history with her. If they're not willing to do that, I'd just put her on a long line for safety and let it go. 

It's something I've kind of made peace with, largely by virtue of living in a house with my husband. He does zero training with the dogs, ever. As a result they don't listen to him, ever. He puts them on leash, they're walking at the end of it, straining away. I take it, they fall in beside me. He comes home, they mob him. Last night at agility, I left Molly with him while I ran Kylie and I came back to see her barking and lunging at the end of her leash, just losing her mind. I took the leash from him and she immediately shut up, sat down, and behaved. 

It's just. Dogs learn what they can get away with and who it's worth working for. You can't really develop that on behalf of someone else, unfortunately.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea agreed with the others. It's something -they- would have to work on with her.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> My dogs hardly listen to my husband at all (even the puppy). It's nobody's fault but his own for not being consistent and following through with things.


I used to care, I really did. Then I stopped. At this stage I only care when he starts whinging and moaning about how the dogs don't 'love him' as much as me because they won't listen to him and it's not fair because he gives them FREE LOVE/attention/cookies and that should make them like him more than me. 

...My husband's a cat person.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

They have to run through the same training you did with her. It probably won't take as long to get there but this is part of dogs needing to generalize everything they know. Is it possible they allow her to get further away/out of sight from them than you allow her to get from you? Play the recall game with both of them in the house, the yard and out where you walk. Super fun, maybe it will help transfer the recall consistency to them as well. All of you carry small treats and call her back and forth.

This morning's training issue. Bucky's been here a month and allowed to use the dog door for a couple weeks. It is a black plastic rectangle cut in the screen door with screen on it. He doesn't get it. Unless I close the glass door so he has no choice but to jump through the dog door frame he takes out the whole screen door every time. Doesn't faze him a bit and he hasn't learned that the black rectangle is the door. I guess cookies in hand and move the glass door back a little until he makes it through the frame every time?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Lately we've been walking the dogs together more - previously DH did the morning walk and I did the afternoon, but it's easier if we both go and each take a dog. He used to be fine at walking the puppy, but she's getting harder (more interested in prey especially) and he's awful. He wants to train LLW, and he tries, but he's not good at it. Like she pulls, he says "oops" and stops until she turns back to him, then he gives her a treat (if he remembered to bring them), and then she shoots off to the end of the leash and drags him for 20ft until I finally say "don't let her do that". So I end up nagging every time he's letting her pull because he doesn't seem to notice (and not a little pulling, like full out pulling) and then he gets frustrated. Finally he says "Fine, you walk her" and she's 90% better. We are doing the same things, but his timing is just not good and he lets her get away with it about 50% of the time. His main problem is that he asks for something, doesn't get it, and then lets it go, so the dogs learn to tune him out. I try to help, and I try not to nag if it's something he doesn't want to work on in the first place, but it's frustrating to watch.

I think there are dogs who kind of listen to anybody and want to be good, but young high energy dogs generally don't fall into that category. They are very good at reading context and responding to reinforcement history.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, Molly will work for anyone that's issuing her a command. It's just that... you have to be willing to issue her a command? Like she'll try and recall to the other dog's owners, because that was a command and she likes work. 

But my husband has, her entire life, systematically taught her to ignore him. 

So she, well, ignores him.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

It mildly irritates me when friends or family will ask Luna to do things that are really pretty high difficulty, and then be all "Oh ho, I thought she was -trained- oh hohoho."

Um, yea. She is. You -just- came in the door, she doesn't know you, and you're sitting on the floor. Getting a sit might be just a -bit- challenging.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> But my husband has, her entire life, systematically taught her to ignore him.


This is basically my husband. He is perfect at using variable reinforcement to reinforce pulling on the leash and not coming to him. lol Mostly Hazel will recall to him off leash, but she is more likely to ignore her name while on leash. And he was annoyed that he said "yes" and she didn't even look at him. Then I watched him say "yes" five times when he didn't have any treats on him and it's like "duh, of course she ignores you because you taught her that "yes" doesn't mean anything specific". He knows this stuff, we've talked about it, but he's just not very conscious of what he's doing in the moment. Like how she will pull him for 20ft after getting a treat and he doesn't even seem to notice.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I kind of figured as much, thanks everyone! I think they just can't be bothered with it... they are pretty low-key even with their own dogs. I'm not worried about her wandering off, really, I just feel bad for them because I know it makes them nervous. I did suggest that they just take her out on a leash if they are worried about it, but then she just wants to play with the other dogs and they take the easy way and let her go instead of trying to restrain her. And since they watch our dog for free.... LOL! They weren't actually complaining about it, but thought I should know. They were very careful to say that she's always really good with them and that's about the only problem they encounter. Mostly I think that they just don't want to put in more effort for this dog over what they put in with their dogs, if that makes sense. Maybe next time we are all together I'll ask them if they will call her instead of me and see how that goes.

My hubs does NOT have the same authority as I do with her. He does work with her, and does training and commands and such, but not really on my level and not nearly as consistently. I'm far more strict with her than he is. He has complained that she won't come for him sometimes when she's poking around in the woods above our house, but as soon as I go outside and call her she comes running at full speed. It frustrates him to no end and I told him I can't feel sorry for him if he doesn't work on that with her!!


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