# Dog training leading to fear aggression behaviour, please help



## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Hello,

I had recently gotten a Pit Bull on Jan 19th, and he just turned one on Jan 16th. When I had gotten him, he was raised in a house with 2 small daughters, 2 small dogs, and a cat. He only knew love and affection and was untrained.

I've never had any problems with him out on walks, at vets or pet stores, everyone seemed to love him and the vet Dr even compared him to the big black dude in the movie Green Mile. All big and scary, but a little suck with no ounce of aggression in his bones, until recently.

Beginning of March, I had enrolled him in a training, no clicker, no treats, no gimmicks. On the first training session, they had him on a prong collar (non aggressive dog), and they tried to teach him the down position, by showing hand signals 3 times, and when that didnt work, they tugged on the prong 3 times, light, medium, and very hard. I don't blame my dog for failing to lesson, he's had no prior training from before and they were asking too much of him. So the trainer eventually tug the leash down and stepped on it and told me the dog would eventually go down, and sometimes it can take upwards to an hour. After 15 minutes or so, I told the trainer to take his foot of the leash as my dog has had enough, the moment he let go, Ruger tried to snap at him. Ever since this day, he growls at men. He's never behaved in this way before, anyone that wanted to pet him could stare him in the eyes and walk up to him and he would just sit there staring at you waiting to be petted. Today he almost bit my male vet (my Dr who has handled him many times and raved about how good he was and no one had anything to be scared about with him). The moment the vet took the dog from me to test him, the dog was reluctant to go with him, when he was with him and away from me, the dog was fine but shaking. So my vet took him on a 2 minute walk around the hospital and the dog was fine. By the time he came back with Ruger and Ruger came by my side, he started to growl at the vet again?

I honestly believe when the trainer taught him down command and tugged and stepped on his leash for 15 minutes, that is pretty much what triggered his fear in men. He started to growl at 2 guys who tried to pet my dog in my neighborhood, and this has never happened before until I took him to training. I've only attended 5 classes so far, and will not be attending anymore.

Is there any solutions anyone can think of to solve this problem? It seems he has fear aggression, which he has never displayed before? My trainer blamed it on my dog saying it was just him maturing now and that I need to hit him to set him straight, otherwise he's giong to grow to strong for me and I won't be able to contain him.

My fault was bringing my dog to an aggressive trainer (which I did't know at the time), as apparently he has 40+ years of experience dealing with dogs. So much that he had to beat the crap otu of his less than 20 lbs dog that was running around getting in the way of people training their pets. He beat the crap out of him infront of all the handlers. That was just yesterday, and that was my tipping point with this trainer.

Any suggestions would be immensely appreciated.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

> Beginning of March, I had enrolled him in a training, no clicker, no treats, no gimmicks.


Clicking and treats aren't "gimmicks", they're tools to unlock a dog's learning potential. This behavior definitely was caused by the horrible training. How on Earth could an untrained dog obey a command they've never been taught? How does pulling down on a prong for 15 minutes teach anything other than fear?

You need to start learning positive training. Go to kikopup on youtube. She is the master and she has videos for everything, including videos on desensitizing, which is what you need to do. You need to change your dog's view of men.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> My fault was bringing my dog to an aggressive trainer (which I did't know at the time), as apparently he has 40+ years of experience dealing with dogs. So much that he had to beat the crap otu of his less than 20 lbs dog that was running around getting in the way of people training their pets. He beat the crap out of him infront of all the handlers. That was just yesterday, and that was my tipping point with this trainer.


It appears this trainer wasted the 1st 40 years of his training career doing absolutely nothing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

wvasko said:


> It appears this trainer wasted the 1st 40 years of his training career doing absolutely nothing.


Seriously, what the hell.

I don't even understand. How does showing a dog a hand signal and then leash correcting it, then stepping on its leash teach the dog what's wanted of it? All I would expect to get out of that is that the hand signal is a warning that unpleasantness is coming. Or, of course, fear of men.

Agreed re: Positive training. Don't use a clicker if you want, but it's the easiest way for most people to communicate with your dog - and to train a dog you have to be able to communicate with it!


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> Clicking and treats aren't "gimmicks", they're tools to unlock a dog's learning potential. This behavior definitely was caused by the horrible training. How on Earth could an untrained dog obey a command they've never been taught? How does pulling down on a prong for 15 minutes teach anything other than fear?
> 
> You need to start learning positive training. Go to kikopup on youtube. She is the master and she has videos for everything, including videos on desensitizing, which is what you need to do. You need to change your dog's view of men.


I have a certified dog behaviorist that is meeting up with me tomorow. She also trains without treats, just all respect between the handler and the dog apparently. If this one fails, I might look into Clicker training as an alternative. Thank you for your response.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

wvasko said:


> It appears this trainer wasted the 1st 40 years of his training career doing absolutely nothing.


Tell me abuot it. I thought bringing him there would be a good idea, it obviously was not and will be costing me more money to undo the damage he's done to my dog in 30 minutes.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

mrdiu said:


> I have a certified dog behaviorist that is meeting up with me tomorow. She also trains without treats, just all respect between the handler and the dog apparently. If this one fails, I might look into Clicker training as an alternative. Thank you for your response.


What are the behaviorist's credentials? Most have substantial knowledge of learning theory and would realize that positive reinforcement (i.e., markers and rewards) have been scientifically proven to work. I'd be suspicious of a behaviorist who claims to work with "respect" as the only tool.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Yeah the whole "no treat" thing, imo, is way more of a gimmick than USING treats and other positive reinforcers lol. There is nothing wrong with giving treats. You don't do it for the rest of the dog's life, you phase them out slowly...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> What are the behaviorist's credentials? Most have substantial knowledge of learning theory and would realize that positive reinforcement (i.e., markers and rewards) have been scientifically proven to work. I'd be suspicious of a behaviorist who claims to work with "respect" as the only tool.


I can't even think of a way that you can translate 'respect based training' to mean something that is NOT dominance based, honestly.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

cookieface said:


> What are the behaviorist's credentials? Most have substantial knowledge of learning theory and would realize that positive reinforcement (i.e., markers and rewards) have been scientifically proven to work. I'd be suspicious of a behaviorist who claims to work with "respect" as the only tool.


Thanks for your reply. Her website is Http://www.mywonderdog.com. Do you see anythign wrong with her?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

She doesn't appear to have any education in psychology, learning theory, animal behavior, or any other area I would expect and want in someone calling themselves a behaviorist. Also, her having studied with Brad Pattison would send me running in the opposite direction. My understanding is that he is very much a believer in dominance theory and uses rather harsh training techniques (possibly more punitive than what you've already experienced).

The International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants is one organization where you can find a behaviorist near you. 

Here are a few trainers and behaviorists near me who I have or would use for my dog:

Positive Results (I have worked with Nancy and she's fabulous!)
Dog Training Club of Chester County (Katie and I belong to the club and every instructor we've had has been wonderful - and patient with my little monster  )
Jane Brydon / Cottage Small Dog Daycare (Katie took her first class here)
Ilana Reisner (veterinary behaviorist - perhaps not someone you'd need right now, but good to know about)


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

From the website:



> Our training is based on respect between owners and their dogs. There is no bribery, or masking with head collars or dominance. We will teach you to meet your dog's unique needs and create a bond between you and your dog that is deeper than working for a treat. *Our head trainer, Amanda Adamiak, is a canine behaviourist that has studied extensively with Brad Pattison*.


Agreed with Cookieface. She studied under Brad Pattison. That is a HUGE red flag to me that she is not positive and not at all what your dog needs. I'd turn right around and look for someone with the right education, along with experience using positive techniques.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

cookieface said:


> She doesn't appear to have any education in psychology, learning theory, animal behavior, or any other area I would expect and want in someone calling themselves a behaviorist. Also, her having studied with Brad Pattison would send me running in the opposite direction. My understanding is that he is very much a believer in dominance theory and uses rather harsh training techniques (possibly more punitive than what you've already experienced).
> 
> The International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants is one organization where you can find a behaviorist near you.
> 
> ...


Thank you, I will check out that Int. Assos. Behav. website. When the trainer mentioned she studied under Brad Pattison on the phone, I thought, whoa, maybe this guy is the shit, but obviously not. I will google him and see what he's all about.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Pit bulls generally do AMAZING with clickers and reward based training. They are people loving dogs that desperately want to please their owners. Treats aren't bribes- they are rewards and tell the dog that he is doing a good job. Treats are commonly used as lures in the beginning but you fade out the use of the treats over time as the dog learns the commands better. Random rewards keep the dog guessing when he might get a good treat. Treats aren't always food, some dogs love toys or tug or getting to run or sniff or any other fun thing. Treats are just easy to use in many settings and most dogs enjoy them.

I think of it this way: Would you work for free? 

Your dog needs to have a number of positive encounters with men to show him that males aren't bad. I had a very fearful pit bull puppy here last month and basically, I just had people come visit (1 or 2 at a time max) and sit down on my driveway outside my fence while I lead the puppy outside in the fenced yard and my friends tossed turkey or cheese at the puppy and let her approach on her own terms. We progressed to meeting with her on-leash and in public but with similar low key, no pressure, just treats and soft words type interactions. After about 2 weeks, she was trusting me to keep her safe and in turn, excited to meet people and enjoying interacting with males and females (she was scared of both).

I'd look around more for a really solid behaviorist.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

mrdiu said:


> Thank you, I will check out that Int. Assos. Behav. website. When the trainer mentioned she studied under Brad Pattison on the phone, I thought, whoa, maybe this guy is the shit, but obviously not. I will google him and see what he's all about.







Be careful with anyone using this guy as any kind of mentor. You already have a traumatized dog.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Shell said:


> Pit bulls generally do AMAZING with clickers and reward based training. They are people loving dogs that desperately want to please their owners. Treats aren't bribes- they are rewards and tell the dog that he is doing a good job. Treats are commonly used as lures in the beginning but you fade out the use of the treats over time as the dog learns the commands better. Random rewards keep the dog guessing when he might get a good treat. Treats aren't always food, some dogs love toys or tug or getting to run or sniff or any other fun thing. Treats are just easy to use in many settings and most dogs enjoy them.
> 
> I think of it this way: Would you work for free?
> 
> ...



Thakns for your reply Shell! So the plan would be for the stranger to feed him treats from a distance and let him come gradually closer to them? Over time he should get better? I'm just so frustrated that the last trainer destroyed him in 30 minutes. I should've picked up on it when he started to bark at men while walking him on my street, all happening after the training. I only picked up on it today when he snapped at my vet who handles him regularly. My vet kne right off the bat that wasnt the same dog and something had to have triggered him, I thought back and realized it was the trainer.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I think that an on-site behaviorist or well versed positive trainer is your best bet but that having one person at a time calmly and gently toss treats is unlikely to chance further problems. 

Human aggression, fear based or not, is a tough thing to give advice over the internet for. It could be a fear based thing or it could be a form of resource guarding where the dog feels like he needs to be protective of you (since the vet thing seems to be more when you, the dog AND the vet are there than when it is just the dog and the vet) or it could be something else entirely. Having someone that can see the dog in difference situations and how he reacts to each can tell that person a lot about what training plan to go with.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Be careful with anyone using this guy as any kind of mentor. You already have a traumatized dog.


Oh WOW, WTF.. I'm definitely not going to pay $200 for this behaviorist consultation fee tomorrow if this is the methods they use to handl eaggressive dogs. Cesar doesn't even treat dogs like that.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Shell said:


> I think that an on-site behaviorist or well versed positive trainer is your best bet but that having one person at a time calmly and gently toss treats is unlikely to chance further problems.
> 
> Human aggression, fear based or not, is a tough thing to give advice over the internet for. It could be a fear based thing or it could be a form of resource guarding where the dog feels like he needs to be protective of you (since the vet thing seems to be more when you, the dog AND the vet are there than when it is just the dog and the vet) or it could be something else entirely. Having someone that can see the dog in difference situations and how he reacts to each can tell that person a lot about what training plan to go with.


My vet said my dog ws definitely confused. As the vet was giving him treats, he would take it from him while still growling at him. My vet said if he had hated him completely, the dog wouldn't even get that close to get the treat from him. I don't know if he's just fearful of men or trying to protect me now. If he was just trying to protect me, would that mean that the training had nothing to do with it?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

mrdiu said:


> My vet said my dog ws definitely confused. As the vet was giving him treats, he would take it from him while still growling at him. My vet said if he had hated him completely, the dog wouldn't even get that close to get the treat from him. I don't know if he's just fearful of men or trying to protect me now. If he was just trying to protect me, would that mean that the training had nothing to do with it?


That is kind of my point- impossible to say exactly what is going on without being there in person. 

The resource guarding possibility could easily be related to the training-- dog is hurt by a man while you are standing there. Dog thinks men are dangerous now. Dog thinks, whoa, don't come near my person, scary man. 
Him taking treats cautiously from the vet suggests _to me_ that he wants to trust men but isn't there yet. 

Can you watch a trainer or behaviorist in action before hiring one? Even though someone might be on their best behavior if they know someone is watching, it can still tell you a lot about how they interact with a dog and their general demeanor and tactics.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

mrdiu said:


> Oh WOW, WTF.. I'm definitely not going to pay $200 for this behaviorist consultation fee tomorrow if this is the methods they use to handl eaggressive dogs. Cesar doesn't even treat dogs like that.


Brad is the devil. You will VERY rarely see me say that I hate anyone I haven't personally met (or anyone in general, for that matter), but I hate that guy. Do not pay the $200. If you have that kind of money to spend, find yourself a certified applied animal behaviorist.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> Brad is the devil. You will VERY rarely see me say that I hate anyone I haven't personally met (or anyone in general, for that matter), but I hate that guy. Do not pay the $200. If you have that kind of money to spend, find yourself a certified applied animal behaviorist.


As a self-confessed Negative Reinforcement Trainer even I would not send a dog to any of the Pattison crew.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

The link to the trainer you provided showed that the location is in Mississauga. That is very near me. There two very good schools near you that I know about. Scholars in Collars in Burlington and Who's Walking Who in Toronto. Call either of these people and they can refer you to a behaviourist. Or, better yet, sign up for some classes!


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I agree that you should find a different trainer but it obviously was not just that first 15 minutes as you say you attended another four classes after that. It is too bad that you did not leave after that first time but what is done is done. Just be sure you do not punish him for growling as it is the only way he knows to tell you he is uncomfortable. When he starts to get comfortable around them, he will stop growling on his own.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> I agree that you should find a different trainer but it obviously was not just that first 15 minutes as you say you attended another four classes after that. It is too bad that you did not leave after that first time but what is done is done. Just be sure you do not punish him for growling as it is the only way he knows to tell you he is uncomfortable. When he starts to get comfortable around them, he will stop growling on his own.


I guess you can say I was oblivious to it. After training, we would walk and he would growl at some men that got too close. I just thought it was an isolated case. Yesterday when he almost bit my vet whose handled him many times without incident, my vet told me there was somethign wrong and something triggered him to do that, so I thought back and realised the first and only time I seen him aggressive is with that trainer, and I then put two and two together and realized it was from his training. Very unfortunate, it just breaks my heart.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

troglodytezzz said:


> The link to the trainer you provided showed that the location is in Mississauga. That is very near me. There two very good schools near you that I know about. Scholars in Collars in Burlington and Who's Walking Who in Toronto. Call either of these people and they can refer you to a behaviourist. Or, better yet, sign up for some classes!


Thank you so much.. I've called and left a message at scholars and sent an email to Who's walking who. Have you trained with these companies before? As you say they are two "very good schools".

Thanks!


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

You are going to have to get used to the idea of treat training. By trying to avoid treats, you've picked two terrible trainers, some of the worst I've heard about or seen.

Keep in mind, many of us here have used clickers and treats to deal with aggressive behavior, myself included. It really works, and it works without ruining the dog.

I would suggest that you start learning about positive training. This trainer went from compulsion training to positive training. This is another trainer who crossed over from compulsion to positive training. I suggest you read their stories and start learning about positive training.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> You are going to have to get used to the idea of treat training. By trying to avoid treats, you've picked two terrible trainers, some of the worst I've heard about or seen.
> 
> Keep in mind, many of us here have used clickers and treats to deal with aggressive behavior, myself included. It really works, and it works without ruining the dog.
> 
> I would suggest that you start learning about positive training. This trainer went from compulsion training to positive training. This is another trainer who crossed over from compulsion to positive training. I suggest you read their stories and start learning about positive training.


I will click train with tricks and what not, I was just not sure to to use it for his fear aggression towards men or behaviour issues. I will definitely read up on it some more.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

mrdiu said:


> I will click train with tricks and what not, I was just not sure to to use it for his fear aggression towards men or behaviour issues. I will definitely read up on it some more.


A lot of people think that clicker training is only for training tricks, but the fact of the matter is, clicker training really shines when used for behavioral modification. Any trainer who says that you can't use a clicker for behavioral problems doesn't understand how a clicker works.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> A lot of people think that clicker training is only for training tricks, but the fact of the matter is, clicker training really shines when used for behavioral modification. Any trainer who says that you can't use a clicker for behavioral problems doesn't understand how a clicker works.


What kind of aggression did you train out with treats?


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

mrdiu said:


> Thank you so much.. I've called and left a message at scholars and sent an email to Who's walking who. Have you trained with these companies before? As you say they are two "very good schools".
> 
> Thanks!


I have taken a total of 5 classes at Scholars in Collars. 3 of them with my current dog Eppy and 2 15 years ago with my previous dog. The owner of the school is very up to date on the latest in scientifically based positive reinforcement type training and it reflects in her classes. Class sizes are small, 9 students, the head instructor is a behaviourist and there are 3 assistants per class. Lots of individual attention for students and the dogs love it there.

I have not taken classes at Who's Walking Who. I do know that their training program is all positive reinforcement (they use food, toys for motivation). Joan Weston, a behaviourist from scholars and owner of Fangs but no Fangs Canine Behavioural Consulting Services does her seminars there.

Gillian Ridgeway (the owner of Who's Walking Who) and Joan Weston both write for Dogs Dogs Dogs a free paper available at pet stores & vet clinics in Toronto. You can read their stuff by following the link. Staff from both schools have been members of The Superdogs performance team. Joan Weston's bulldog was handled by Rick Mercer on his show at the royal winter fair a couple of years ago.





I really can't say enough good things about these people.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

mrdiu said:


> What kind of aggression did you train out with treats?


I am by no means an expert but I do understand the basics. It's not that he is aggressive, he is afraid. Right now, when a man approaches, your dog might be thinking something along the lines of "Oh crap! a man. I hope he doesn't hurt me. I better growl and warn him to back off." If the next 500 men that approach him on a walk dropped a piece of cheese or meat in front or your dog then your dog's perception of men can change. Now it's more like "Cool! a man is coming, I wonder if he has something yummy for me? I love men!" This is called conditioning an emotional response.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Here's a video from Sophia Yin showing how she counter-conditioned an aggressive dog using treats. There are a few other videos on her site that demonstrate her method of working with reactive and aggressive dogs.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

troglodytezzz said:


> I am by no means an expert but I do understand the basics. It's not that he is aggressive, he is afraid. Right now, when a man approaches, your dog might be thinking something along the lines of "Oh crap! a man. I hope he doesn't hurt me. I better growl and warn him to back off." If the next 500 men that approach him on a walk dropped a piece of cheese or meat in front or your dog then your dog's perception of men can change. Now it's more like "Cool! a man is coming, I wonder if he has something yummy for me? I love men!" This is called conditioning an emotional response.


That is exactly it. You couldn't have said it more simpler. I am going to try what one of the posters did, recruit 1-2 friends and have them toss treats and let the dog move in on his own terms. Hoping this method will work in a couple of months.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Here's a video from Sophia Yin showing how she counter-conditioned an aggressive dog using treats. There are a few other videos on her site that demonstrate her method of working with reactive and aggressive dogs.


Wow, thank you so much for that video. It was very informative!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I hate to say it, but you've learned the hard way how damaging it can be to force a dog using punishment. But, I believe you'll see a remarkable recovery by simply tossing treats (resulting in a fat, happy dog  ). After a few days, when he's predictable, you might ask the Vet if you can bring him to the office, and get the staff to all toss him some treats. What Sophia Yin does, and what Trog suggested about 500 men will really make a difference. 

>>> As a self-confessed Negative Reinforcement Trainer .... 
Pierce looks like he's never been deprived or corrected


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

hanksimon said:


> I hate to say it, but you've learned the hard way how damaging it can be to force a dog using punishment. But, I believe you'll see a remarkable recovery by simply tossing treats (resulting in a fat, happy dog  ). After a few days, when he's predictable, you might ask the Vet if you can bring him to the office, and get the staff to all toss him some treats. What Sophia Yin does, and what Trog suggested about 500 men will really make a difference.
> 
> >>> As a self-confessed Negative Reinforcement Trainer ....
> Pierce looks like he's never been deprived or corrected


An animal behaviourist just told me some discouraging news, "Unfortunately, there is a bad new: when a dog is forced to choose aggression, he will be aggressive his entire life because he has learned that it works when communication has failed. Your dog has changed now. You need to accept that and move in the right direction."

OMFG! Can it get any worst. I did learn the hard way and will never make the same mistake again I tell you. Thanks for your advice, if you have any more, it'd be greatly appreciated.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

What are this behaviorist's credentials? That sounds weird to me.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> What are this behaviorist's credentials? That sounds weird to me.


I second this question.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

mrdiu said:


> An animal behaviourist just told me some discouraging news, "Unfortunately, there is a bad new: when a dog is forced to choose aggression, he will be aggressive his entire life because he has learned that it works when communication has failed. Your dog has changed now. You need to accept that and move in the right direction."
> 
> OMFG! Can it get any worst. I did learn the hard way and will never make the same mistake again I tell you. Thanks for your advice, if you have any more, it'd be greatly appreciated.


That sounds very odd to me and is counter to what I have SEEN with fear aggressive dogs. Dogs are very adaptable with the right circumstances. Dogs that have been severally abused can learn to trust people, dogs that have had to protect themselves can learn to let their person take care of things etc.

There can be genetically aggressive dogs, but I think that is HIGHLY unlikely in your case. For one, pit bulls are some of the least human aggressive dogs and for two, it seems to have a clear timing and circumstance connection to the mistreatment by the trainer.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> What are this behaviorist's credentials? That sounds weird to me.


http://www.dogsperience.com/about-us.html

Her name is Beatrice.

I was going to go with her, what do you guys think?


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Shell said:


> That sounds very odd to me and is counter to what I have SEEN with fear aggressive dogs. Dogs are very adaptable with the right circumstances. Dogs that have been severally abused can learn to trust people, dogs that have had to protect themselves can learn to let their person take care of things etc.
> 
> There can be genetically aggressive dogs, but I think that is HIGHLY unlikely in your case. For one, pit bulls are some of the least human aggressive dogs and for two, it seems to have a clear timing and circumstance connection to the mistreatment by the trainer.


When I read that from her, I didn't want to believe it. It didn't sound right to me either. Thanks for your response. I'm contemplating weather I should just try all the training myself, it seems so easy to watch in the videos, but actually its pretty damn hard to implement it when all dogs don't act the same as the dogs in the videos.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

mrdiu said:


> http://www.dogsperience.com/about-us.html
> 
> Her name is Beatrice.
> 
> I was going to go with her, what do you guys think?


Could it be a language issue? I checked out her website and it doesn't look too bad to me, but I can see she's from Spain and probably recently arrived in an English speaking country.

I do NOT think a dog that has been fear aggressive will always continue to be aggressive if treated right and trained right, but she might be saying something more like "Your dog now needs to be shown that aggression isn't required to be safe and you need to continue to reinforce that by giving positive experiences and keep the communication going"


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## Nuclear_Glitter (Jun 20, 2012)

Just signing up for general classes sounds like a great start to me. In my opinion, I don't think you need a behaviorist at this point. I think you just need a few guys willing to help you, and positive training. 

It can be hard to train your dog yourself, but you can just work on it at home for fun and helping to build your dog's confidence and your own and rely on classes for more obedience and such.

I'm not saying that seeking out a trainer to help you is a bad idea though. I just don't think you need a behaviorist, yet.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Nuclear_Glitter said:


> Just signing up for general classes sounds like a great start to me. In my opinion, I don't think you need a behaviorist at this point. I think you just need a few guys willing to help you, and positive training.
> 
> It can be hard to train your dog yourself, but you can just work on it at home for fun and helping to build your dog's confidence and your own and rely on classes for more obedience and such.
> 
> I'm not saying that seeking out a trainer to help you is a bad idea though. I just don't think you need a behaviorist, yet.



I'm afraid to sign up for a general class right now, beacuse I'm afraid he will bark aggressive towards the male handlers and peopl emay be thinking hes barking at their dogs. People will probably be scared too, because of his breed. 

I would have no problems before to have signed him up in general classes. Now i'm not so sure I can do that right now.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Shell said:


> Could it be a language issue? I checked out her website and it doesn't look too bad to me, but I can see she's from Spain and probably recently arrived in an English speaking country.
> 
> I do NOT think a dog that has been fear aggressive will always continue to be aggressive if treated right and trained right, but she might be saying something more like "Your dog now needs to be shown that aggression isn't required to be safe and you need to continue to reinforce that by giving positive experiences and keep the communication going"


She did say more, "get 100% positive trainer, never punish your dog, hold to a no free lunch policy, make a commitment of being balanced and consistent" 

She said she can definitely help me if I were to sign up with her.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

mrdiu said:


> She did say more, "get 100% positive trainer, never punish your dog, hold to a no free lunch policy, make a commitment of being balanced and consistent"
> 
> She said she can definitely help me if I were to sign up with her.


That actually sounds really good. I wonder if what she was saying was that you were going to have to do some management of your dog from here on out, and be vigilant, rather than nothing would help the dog.


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## Nuclear_Glitter (Jun 20, 2012)

mrdiu said:


> I'm afraid to sign up for a general class right now, beacuse I'm afraid he will bark aggressive towards the male handlers and peopl emay be thinking hes barking at their dogs. People will probably be scared too, because of his breed.
> 
> I would have no problems before to have signed him up in general classes. Now i'm not so sure I can do that right now.


It makes sense to not want him to bark at everyone and give people a bad impression. Finding a positive male to toss him treats a few times a week though is pretty important. Since you can't restrict him from males forever. 

The behaviorist doesn't sound bad, like others are saying. If it's a good option for you, then I think you should go for it. I do wish you the best of luck and I hope you can get your dog confident and good with males again.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

CptJack said:


> That actually sounds really good. I wonder if what she was saying was that you were going to have to do some management of your dog from here on out, and be vigilant, rather than nothing would help the dog.


It seems like she only started getting into dogs in 2007? Didnt' start training full time until 2012. Do you think she lacks experience?


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

Did you hear back from Scholars? Diane (the owner and a behaviourist) has something like 30 years experience. She has personally owned over 25 dogs, most of them rescues. Choke chains and prong collars are not allowed in class and will actually be confiscated if found. The staff is all female if that helps. She is probably one of the best trainers in the country. You can't go wrong here.


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## Nuclear_Glitter (Jun 20, 2012)

troglodytezzz said:


> Did you hear back from Scholars? Diane (the owner and a behaviourist) has something like 30 years experience. She has personally owned over 25 dogs, most of them rescues. Choke chains and prong collars are not allowed in class and will actually be confiscated if found. The staff is all female if that helps. She is probably one of the best trainers in the country. You can't go wrong here.


This sounds like a really good route to take. It's what I'd do if I were in your shoes.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

mrdiu said:


> It seems like she only started getting into dogs in 2007? Didnt' start training full time until 2012. Do you think she lacks experience?


Not fair for me to say about that, but if we're recommending behaviourists based on our own personal opinions? then I would suggest Joan Weston. I've attended her seminars, attended other seminars where she's participated, and trained alongside of her at various facilities many times. 

She's intelligent. And knowledgeable. And experienced. Not to mention incredibly humourous, if that counts for anything.


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Not fair for me to say about that, but if we're recommending behaviourists based on our own personal opinions? then I would suggest Joan Weston. I've attended her seminars, attended other seminars where she's participated, and trained alongside of her at various facilities many times.
> 
> She's intelligent. And knowledgeable. And experienced. Not to mention incredibly humourous, if that counts for anything.


I totally agree. She was my instructor for both level 1 and 2 at Scholars. I have learned a lot from her.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> An animal behaviourist just told me some discouraging news, "Unfortunately, there is a bad new: when a dog is forced to choose aggression, he will be aggressive his entire life because he has learned that it works when communication has failed. Your dog has changed now. You need to accept that and move in the right direction."


That is mostly BS because somewhere in dog world there may a dog that the aggression does not leave it but in the right hands it's a curable program.

Years ago I took a Rott female in for training somewhere between 6 months and a year old (long time ago)

When dog was picked up the owners told me that a behaviorist had advised PTS the dog. Owners never mentioned that when they dropped dog off. Funny part is the dog showed absolutely no aggression at all.

I have never met a real live behaviorist, would like to have met this one for reasons of my own. 

Moral of story is There are trainers who are not trainers and behaviorist who are not behaviorists, the fun is in the pickin'....


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

Nuclear_Glitter said:


> This sounds like a really good route to take. It's what I'd do if I were in your shoes.


No, I had left them a message with my phone number and e-mail address. I'm still waiting to hear back from them. Hopefully they can respond soon. Pretty crappy you can't talk to a live rep, or e-mail them.


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## mrdiu (Mar 26, 2013)

wvasko said:


> That is mostly BS because somewhere in dog world there may a dog that the aggression does not leave it but in the right hands it's a curable program.
> 
> Years ago I took a Rott female in for training somewhere between 6 months and a year old (long time ago)
> 
> ...


If only dog or pet training was regulated, we wouldn't have so many bad trainers. It's very unfortunate.  This is so stressful for me.


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