# AKC vs. ACA



## jellojess13

Okay I really hope there is someone out there who can possibly help me. I recently purchased a beautiful beagle from a high volume pet store. The papers I received with her states that she is registered with the American Canine Association. Can someone tell me or explain to me the difference. I have been doing some research and have found many sites to refer to the ACA as a "bogus registery" if this is so, is there anything I can do? I have payed a great deal of money which I do feel she is worth it ...but honestly if she was bred from a "puppy mill" then isn't there anything to do about this?? And it also states she is microchipped but when I went to register that on the ACA website...it does not work. Imagine that. Please someone Help me!!! I am so upset and confused.


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## Curbside Prophet

I'm afraid you have good reason to be upset. Let me preface this by saying that I don't know anything about the ACA. However, there's probably a good reason I know nothing about them...it's because they are anoher one of those crap registries that do nothing more than take hard earned dollars from unsuspecting and caring people like you. It's a shame that you could not have obtained your understanding of what the ACA is before the purchase, but there is probably little you can do to "refund" your purchase. She may very well be a puppy-mill product, and depending on what state you live in, there's nothing you can do because, in some states bredding puppies is another cash crop in the eyes of a greedy politician...so these companies are in effect, protected by crappy laws. Do an internet search on the Hunte Corp., and you'll see what I mean. I'm sorry you feel dooped, but this dog is you dog now, and I'm sure with your care, you'll love her regardless of her papers. The AKC really is the only registry in town. Not because the AKC guarantees the quality of dogs registered with them, but the AKC is the only registry recognized in other countries...therefore their standards and breeding practices are recognized by their peers. Many of these other registries have separated themselves from the AKC because they can not, will not, or want not to uphold the AKC's higher breeding standards...they in effect just want your money so long as you're willing to pay for a lesser quality dog. Because, in some people mind having papers means something of monetary value, or status. I'm sure you understand that it's a ploy to make you think you're paying for something when you're not. There are exceptions, like breed specific registries, and registries that recognize certain breeds that the AKC does not...the UKC comes to mind with pitbulls. But those are far and few between. I'm sorry. Despite the circumstance, welcome to our forum.


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## skelaki

The AKC, UKC, ARBA and some individual working dog registries (such as those for Border Collies, Australian Shepherds and Foxhounds) are legitimate registries. Unfortunately, many pet stores and BYBs are basically defrauding the public with bogus registries. Sadly it seems that the poster is a victim and there may or may not be anything she can do other than hope she's one of the lucky ones whose puppy mill dog is reasonably healthy. I made the mistake once, years ago of getting a pet store puppy and I was lucky.

If the dog looks purebred and if it 's spayed/neutered, the poster can apply for an AKC ILP number. This would enable her to participate in any AKC performance event that Beagles are eligible for.


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## Snowshoe

I agree with all of the other posters. 

although mistakes with the AKC do happen, it is far easier for puppy millers to register dogs with pet registries such as APRI (another crap registry) and ACA. 

In some instances, these millers even get a discount for registering mass ammounts of dogs (imagine a Sam's club discount for puppy mills!)

Just like any thing else you want to buy, pets are "buyer beware." People don't seem to realize that pet stores are one of the worse places to get a dog, as great breeders won't sell their puppies to a pet store. 

As for what you can do-probably nothing. The petstores didn't do anything wrong, technically. It's not their fault that you were willing to pay out big bucks for a dog, a dog for which you had no clue of the background. 

The only way you could "get" them for anything is if your puppy gets sick, and you can prove that it was the condition of the pet store that caused your pup's illness. 

Unfortunately, any genetic illnesses (such as hip displasia or a heart murmer) wouldn't be the pet store's fault. And, unless you got a contract with the breeder (which I doubt, as your dog likely came from a puppy mill) you're going to be saddled with the vet bill. 

That is why it is so important to do a little research before you buy a puppy. It is important to know WHERE and HOW to buy a puppy; what kind of illnesses are inherant in the breed, etc. 

I'm sorry that you're in this situation. Please, just spay your pet and enjoy her for what she can offer you.


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## DogAdvocat

I have to disagree with the above posters on some points. One of the big problems with pet shop puppies is that many of them *are* AKC registered, and they still come from puppymills. But to the OP, all the other registries are worse. The AKC at least does refuse to register the dogs of breeders that have broken their rules, few as they are. The other registries don't care. And some pet shops even try to fool the public by issuing "Pet-a-gree" papers that they made up with their own graphics program on their own computer. And people fall for this. And there's nothing that can be done because it's not illegal - and neither are puppymills.

So, to the OP, here's my question to you -- with all the education that humane societies, shelters, rescues, and other animal activists are constantly trying to get out to the public, why didn't you get the message? You could really help a lot by explaining how we missed the boat with you. Even Dateline on television ran some puppymill/pet shop exposes. And what the consensus is, is that the only way to stop it is to stop buying dogs from pet stores. So how are we going to stop that pet shop traffic if you, and people like you, aren't hearing our message? Please help us.

As for your dog - love it and cherish it, and say a prayer for it's mama who is still in a cage somewhere, pumping out puppies so that those pet shop cages will be filled. Though puppymills are all over the country, a predominant amount of them are in the midwest and northeast. Think of her when the weather is freezing, because she's outside in a wire cage that cause her feet to hurt. Be sure to give your puppy nice toys, and think about his mama who will never have any. Be sure to give him a soft bed, and/or a blanket, because she'll never have that either. And be sure to give him good food, because the food she gets is the cheapest food possible, so it doesn't cut into the breeders profits. And be sure to get him good veterinary care, which is something else she will never have because it just costs more than the breeder thinks she is worth. 

And please, please, please, educate yourself and help us pass the word so that the next person doesn't make the same mistake you did. That's the only thing that can be done.


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## Snowshoe

VERY nice post, DA.


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## Curbside Prophet

DogAdvocat said:


> "Pet-a-gree"


This is an interesting twist on the word...I almost think it should be "pet-agree?".


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## DogAdvocat

Curbside Prophet said:


> This is an interesting twist on the word...I almost think it should be "pet-agree?".


Either way, it's a sham.


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## Curbside Prophet

DogAdvocat said:


> Either way, it's a sham.


Very true...however, I'm thinking of starting my own registry...and I wouldn't be a sham. I need help with names, but in my registry we're going to have monthly bonfire to burn all those papers from crap registries. I'm thinking of using the acronym "AKC" too, but mine would stand for "American Kindling Club". I would charge both an admission to the bonfire and to register your dog, and return the fees to where it belongs...helping to educate people of crap registries, and all those poor dogs sitting in shelters. I think I'm on to something here?


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## Keno's Mom

I skimmed the answers to this - can't add anything other then to agree - its a puppy mill registry. Best thing to do is say a prayer your pup that it stays healthy and spay/neuter ASAP - don't even THINK about breeding your pup.


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## MagicToller

Sorry to say, but what everyone has told you is true :/ It is sham registery.. I would advise getting her spayed and love her with all of your heart. Now that you have had a brush with the experience, perhaps you could spread the word to people you know and let them know about puppy mills, bogus registeries, and high volume pet stores.


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## Dogged

Amazingly insightful and intelligent posts, DogAdvocat and Curbside Prophet.

Thank you.


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## DogAdvocat

Curbside Prophet said:


> Very true...however, I'm thinking of starting my own registry...and I wouldn't be a sham. I need help with names, but in my registry we're going to have monthly bonfire to burn all those papers from crap registries. I'm thinking of using the acronym "AKC" too, but mine would stand for "American Kindling Club". I would charge both an admission to the bonfire and to register your dog, and return the fees to where it belongs...helping to educate people of crap registries, and all those poor dogs sitting in shelters. I think I'm on to something here?


LOL !! I know one rescue that used those little blue papers to wallpaper her office with. I like your idea better.


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## skelaki

Yes, the AKC does register pet store dogs (mine was AKC registered), which I think is a shame. I understand that the AKC has to make enough money to at least break even but feel they should do more to educate the public about pet stores and puppy mills. I'm glad that at least the contract they were planning with Petland fell through due to so many complaints from member clubs. If they can't do something such as require all pet store dogs be spayed/neutered before being registered, I'd be willing to pay somewhat higher fees to at least partially make up for some of the losses due to refusing to register pet store dogs. But, I think they should also concentrate on inspections at known puppy mills, verifying records and doing DNA testing on the animals, as well as inspecting the physical condition of the animals and the environment to see that they at least meet reasonable minimum standards.


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## Raggs

Actually puppy mills are illegal. They are illegally run according to state regulations. Any breeding facility has to be kept in a clean and organized condition. Puppy mills are not. To breed more than 3 dogs a city issued breeder license must be issue, which is hard for a puppy mill to acquire because this constitutes that the city has to do an inspection of the premises and of the dogs. Puppy mills people will not allow this to happen. In fact that is how some of them are found and shut down. Any licensed breeder must take their animals to the vet (as with any pet owner) because breeding dogs must be current on shots and rabies and registered with the city. Also another way puppy mills are found. Neighbors call in about dogs getting lose or something along those lines, find that those people don't have any dogs registered to them and go to investigate.

Puppy mills most of the time keep their dogs in cages that are way to small for them or are given free roam of a house. They never clean up feces or urine or dead animals. They are not given sufficient amounts of food or water, which in turn causes several diseases. 

No reputable breeder will sell one of their puppies to a pet store. It's a shame that this is still happening. However they can get dogs registered AKC if they are not inbred because they do require a blood sample now. Or all they have to do is take a picture of a dog name it's breed and the AKC will register it. However sometimes they do require a verification from the vet. That's not hard. They just have to walk one of their dogs into a vets office, get that breed confirmed and they're all set. They can do this with so many dogs without being caught because there are at least 100 vets in any given county.

People should really do all their research before buying a puppy. My advice to anyone who buys one from a pet store should be to return it for their money back and go to a breeder or a rescue or the humane society. If people stop buying from pet stores then puppy mills no longer make money and there for can no longer afford anything and this will help put an end to puppy mills...

BYB breeders should be treated the same. If anyone breeds for money and not the betterment of the breed, they should not be allowed to own animals.

I have 2 Eskies that are on their last litter of puppies right now. They are 5 years old and no longer need to have more litters. They were bred for the temperaments and their health. They are sweet (which is hard to find in this breed now) and they are in perfect health with no signs of any genetic disorder. The age to stop breeding females is 8 years old which puppy mills breed females till they die. I am stopping mine at 5 just for health sakes. I don't want to risk her developing pyometria or any other severe disorder that comes with more and more litters and age.


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## DogAdvocat

Raggs said:


> Actually puppy mills are illegal. They are illegally run according to state regulations. Any breeding facility has to be kept in a clean and organized condition. Puppy mills are not. To breed more than 3 dogs a city issued breeder license must be issue, which is hard for a puppy mill to acquire because this constitutes that the city has to do an inspection of the premises and of the dogs. Puppy mills people will not allow this to happen. In fact that is how some of them are found and shut down. Any licensed breeder must take their animals to the vet (as with any pet owner) because breeding dogs must be current on shots and rabies and registered with the city. Also another way puppy mills are found. Neighbors call in about dogs getting lose or something along those lines, find that those people don't have any dogs registered to them and go to investigate.


Puppymills ARE NOT illegal. A puppymill is any commercial kennel that pumps out (mills) puppys for a profit. Puppymills were encouraged by our government as a cash crop for farmers after WWII. You say a city breeder license must be issued to anyone breeding more than 3 dogs, but this isn't a national mandate. It may be that way in your city, which is great, but it sure isn't that way across the country. The USDA inspects commercial kennels, and they give their stamp of approval to horrendous places year after year. I really think you need to do a little more study before you try to educate. Have you ever been in a puppymill? I have. I've seen puppymills with hundreds of breeding dogs, and they passed all inspections, even though the dogs were in horrible shape.



> Puppy mills most of the time keep their dogs in cages that are way to small for them or are given free roam of a house. They never clean up feces or urine or dead animals. They are not given sufficient amounts of food or water, which in turn causes several diseases.


While true, puppymills also have their dogs in cement runs where they have as much room as any boarded dog does, but they get minimal interaction with humans (no socialization) and diseases don't matter as long as the dog can reproduce. When they no longer can reproduce, they are discarded.



> No reputable breeder will sell one of their puppies to a pet store. It's a shame that this is still happening. However they can get dogs registered AKC if they are not inbred because they do require a blood sample now. Or all they have to do is take a picture of a dog name it's breed and the AKC will register it. However sometimes they do require a verification from the vet. That's not hard. They just have to walk one of their dogs into a vets office, get that breed confirmed and they're all set. They can do this with so many dogs without being caught because there are at least 100 vets in any given county.


Most of this is wrong. You are right about reputable breeders not selling through a pet store, but inbreeding has nothing to do with AKC registration. Inbreeding is one of the three ways that even reputable breeders use, the others being linebreeding and outcrossing. Carefully inbreeding can help set a type. And the AKC will NOT register a dog from a picture. What you're talking about is ILP, which allows dogs to compete in AKC performance events but not conformation events. And most vets are not expert on breeds and their standards, and would not be used to verify whether a dog is purebred.



> People should really do all their research before buying a puppy. My advice to anyone who buys one from a pet store should be to return it for their money back and go to a breeder or a rescue or the humane society. If people stop buying from pet stores then puppy mills no longer make money and there for can no longer afford anything and this will help put an end to puppy mills...


Your right, people should do their research, but most pet shops will not take the puppy back and will not return the money. They count on impulse buys and sales are final unless there is a "contract" regarding the dogs health and the buyer can prove that the dog is unhealthy - even then it's often difficult to get the petshop to comply.



> BYB breeders should be treated the same. If anyone breeds for money and not the betterment of the breed, they should not be allowed to own animals.
> 
> I have 2 Eskies that are on their last litter of puppies right now. They are 5 years old and no longer need to have more litters. They were bred for the temperaments and their health. They are sweet (which is hard to find in this breed now) and they are in perfect health with no signs of any genetic disorder. The age to stop breeding females is 8 years old which puppy mills breed females till they die. I am stopping mine at 5 just for health sakes. I don't want to risk her developing pyometria or any other severe disorder that comes with more and more litters and age.


Pyometra is a disease that can show up at any age. You say you bred for temperament and health. What about improving the breed? Are you breeding to meet the standard? Did you research your dog's lineages to find out what diseases were in past generations, or are you only going by their health now? What pre-breeding health tests did you do? Do you know what diseases that Eskies are prone to? What kind of health guarantees do you give on your puppies? Do you spay/neuter your pups, or are they all being bred too? Are your dogs one of the examples of those you said have their breed verified by a vet?


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## Raggs

Yes I have done all my research, I have been grooming for 8 years, I used to rescue, I worked with the ASPCA (how I know about puppy mills and laws in different states), I train dogs, I used to be a vet tech, and am now going to college to become a vet. I am breeding to help the breed not for money. I know it can show up at any age but the risk becomes greater with the dogs age. Yes I am meeting the breed standard. The parents of mine dogs and the granparents had no diseases. Yes I know all about the health risks of this breed and everything about them. I know over 200 breeds plus their breed standards and their health risks and problems they are prone to. I'm not stupid like some people. If I didn't know my facts I wouldn't be posting anything. Just because all states aren't exactly the same doesn't mean that the majority don't have laws to try to prevent puppy mills. I have been thru several puppy mills and been in a couple that have been caught because of a simple rabies license. Both in New York and in Utah (where Utah hardly has any laws, it's not an animal friendly state). All of my puppies get vet checked and guaranteed for their health. However one of their problems is hip dysplasia and no amount of x-rays until the dog is 6 months can guarantee that they wont have it. They all go to homes only with a signing of a spay/neuter contract and if they don't abide by that contract I take the puppy back and have it altered myself and find a new home for it. I don't do anything with the AKC registered as I said above. I got both of my dogs from my dad who got them both from reputable breeders and have a strong lineage to back them up.

I'd suggest you quit asking so much questions about me. If I wasn't out to help animals I wouldn't have joined this board. I'm not a stupid ignorant person that doesn't know a thing about animals.

Plus I know that vets don't know all about breeds, those aren't my standards for the AKC, that's how they ask for it. I groomed a Shih Tzu poodle mix one day that the vet said was a purebred Maltese. Last time I checked, Malteses didn't come in black.

Like I said above I know over 200 breeds, their standards, their health risks and diseases they are prone to, that's why I'm studying to become a vet, because I don't know one vet that know as much about breeds as I do... 

My friend just e-mailed me about breeding her lab. I wrote her a novel about the health problems a lab faces and all about the breed and everything. Then told her to talk to her vet, she let me know that because of what I informed her and her vet backed me up entirely she has decided to spay her Lab instead of breeding her. Why, because I told her about the retina problems found in Labs and the vet found, thru testing, that her dog is starting to show signs of PRA... Progressive Retinal Atrophy. She would never have asked her vet about it if I had said anything. So while I'm breeding a pair of dogs in perfect health who's lineage all had perfect health, I'm not all for breeding.  I'd rather get back into rescue, but I got so sick of seeing Eskies get such a bad rap and see one after another with tons of health problems. I thought it was high time this breed started to get better.

And on that note, I'm done posting in the forum. I'm here to try to help people, not here to get my head ripped off. I got that enough in my grooming forum where I tried to inform people of a special hold on dogs that are aggressive. While I got ripped apart on that one another groomer came on to back me up. She had to learn the hold I explained before she could continue to groom at the vet's shop she's at now. So while a few people think I may be stupid or cruel or just out to get people, they really need to ask around and do more and more research before ripping my head off.

It makes it hard to help people when I don't feel welcomed on a board, thanks for that. How about using your aggression and inquisitive nature against people who don't give a rats butt about animals but think that they are doing a good job by smacking them when they do something wrong or telling them, good dog, to calm them down when they are trying to bit the vet or a groomer.


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## Snowshoe

Sorry you feel that way, Raggs. 

I have to say that I agree with DA. If you don't show your dogs, you aren't breeding for the right reason. 

How do you know your dogs are even on standard? 

(btw, you didn't mention whether or not you do show, so I'm assuming you don't)

You sound like a well educated back yard breeder, to me.


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## DogAdvocat

Snowshoe said:


> Sorry you feel that way, Raggs.
> 
> I have to say that I agree with DA. If you don't show your dogs, you aren't breeding for the right reason.
> 
> How do you know your dogs are even on standard?
> 
> (btw, you didn't mention whether or not you do show, so I'm assuming you don't)
> 
> You sound like a well educated back yard breeder, to me.


Thanks Snowshoe. The problem is that I think there's a lot of question about the educational level. I'm seeing so many red flags, that it's scary to think that the uninformed might be taking him/her seriously. Even this last post where s/he talks about hip dysplasia and a six month cutoff to find out, by x-ray, if the dog has it, when actually dogs can show up with it as late as 2 years old. I think s/he has learned some of the buzz words, but has no real concept of what they mean. We're obviously not all experts on these boards, and we all have things to learn, and I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable, but I think we do newcomers a disservice if we let erroneous information stand without challenge.


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## DogAdvocat

Raggs said:


> Yes I have done all my research, I have been grooming for 8 years, I used to rescue, I worked with the ASPCA (how I know about puppy mills and laws in different states), I train dogs, I used to be a vet tech, and am now going to college to become a vet. I am breeding to help the breed not for money. I know it can show up at any age but the risk becomes greater with the dogs age. Yes I am meeting the breed standard.


The breed standard is the ideal for what the breed should be. Responsible breeders work to improve their dogs, using that standard as a guide. If you are meeting the standard, then you must think your dogs are the ideal for what an American Eskimo should be. How are you ascertaining this? How and who judges them?



> The parents of mine dogs and the granparents had no diseases. Yes I know all about the health risks of this breed and everything about them. I know over 200 breeds plus their breed standards and their health risks and problems they are prone to. I'm not stupid like some people.


I know a lot of people that know where to research for breed standards and diseases common to each of the breeds, but I've never met anyone that knows them all by heart. I'm impressed !!! The breed standards are pretty intricate, and require a lot of study. Where DO you find the time?



> If I didn't know my facts I wouldn't be posting anything.


And yet I've seen several examples of "facts" that are erroneous, like the information on AKC registrations. Ooops? One would think a breeder would know more about that.



> Just because all states aren't exactly the same doesn't mean that the majority don't have laws to try to prevent puppy mills. I have been thru several puppy mills and been in a couple that have been caught because of a simple rabies license. Both in New York and in Utah (where Utah hardly has any laws, it's not an animal friendly state).


I think what you are talking about is local zoning laws. As long as an area allows kennels, then puppymills are legal. So your information that puppymills aren't legal is wrong. Are you familiar with the Hunte Corporation that even got a grant from the USDA to promote and subsidize puppymills?



> All of my puppies get vet checked and guaranteed for their health. However one of their problems is hip dysplasia and no amount of x-rays until the dog is 6 months can guarantee that they wont have it.


This is the kind of information that I find very disturbing from someone whose purpose is to educate. Dogs can't be cleared of hip dysplasia until 2 years of age. They CAN have preliminary x-rays done from 4 months and up, but that's not the final reading. So even at 6 months there's no guarantee. If this is the kind of education you are putting out to the public, PLEASE STOP.



> They all go to homes only with a signing of a spay/neuter contract and if they don't abide by that contract I take the puppy back and have it altered myself and find a new home for it. I don't do anything with the AKC registered as I said above. I got both of my dogs from my dad who got them both from reputable breeders and have a strong lineage to back them up.


I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying. Are you saying that your dogs aren't AKC registered, or are you saying that someone else handles the registration for you? If the latter, then it explains why you are giving out erroneous information about veterinary certification for breed identification. You need to ask more questions before educating on this.



> I'd suggest you quit asking so much questions about me. If I wasn't out to help animals I wouldn't have joined this board. I'm not a stupid ignorant person that doesn't know a thing about animals.


I think that you THINK you know a lot about animals, but as long as you keep raising red flags pointing to the wrong information you're giving, then it would do a greater disservice to the animals to remain quiet and not question that wrong information - don't you think? Just like your misinformation on the Health Board where you say that dogs can only have one baby aspirin (81mg), when that is totally absurd.



> Plus I know that vets don't know all about breeds, those aren't my standards for the AKC, that's how they ask for it. I groomed a Shih Tzu poodle mix one day that the vet said was a purebred Maltese. Last time I checked, Malteses didn't come in black.


Which is why the AKC does NOT require or accept vet certification that a dog is of a certain breed. 



> Like I said above I know over 200 breeds, their standards, their health risks and diseases they are prone to, that's why I'm studying to become a vet, because I don't know one vet that know as much about breeds as I do...


Ok, let's say this is true - what possible purpose would there be for you to know the standards of 200 breeds? It certainly isn't going to help in the veterinary profession. Wouldn't it be of more use if you concentrated on basic animal care, like dogs needing to be inside with their families, or what common medications (like aspirin) a dog can have? How will knowing if a dog's "stop" meets the standard help in your veterinary career? Seems to me that kind of information would only help if you wanted a career being an AKC judge.



> My friend just e-mailed me about breeding her lab. I wrote her a novel about the health problems a lab faces and all about the breed and everything. Then told her to talk to her vet, she let me know that because of what I informed her and her vet backed me up entirely she has decided to spay her Lab instead of breeding her. Why, because I told her about the retina problems found in Labs and the vet found, thru testing, that her dog is starting to show signs of PRA... Progressive Retinal Atrophy. She would never have asked her vet about it if I had said anything. So while I'm breeding a pair of dogs in perfect health who's lineage all had perfect health, I'm not all for breeding.  I'd rather get back into rescue, but I got so sick of seeing Eskies get such a bad rap and see one after another with tons of health problems. I thought it was high time this breed started to get better.


I'm glad you were able to dissuade your friend from breeding. 



> And on that note, I'm done posting in the forum. I'm here to try to help people, not here to get my head ripped off. I got that enough in my grooming forum where I tried to inform people of a special hold on dogs that are aggressive. While I got ripped apart on that one another groomer came on to back me up. She had to learn the hold I explained before she could continue to groom at the vet's shop she's at now. So while a few people think I may be stupid or cruel or just out to get people, they really need to ask around and do more and more research before ripping my head off.


Again, you aren't helping people if you are giving them the wrong information. Some things are a matter of opinion, and they can be argued but not be considered wrong. But aspirin dosage, and 6 month clearance on OFA, and vet clearances being accepted for breed identification by the AKC, and some of the other things that I cringed at when you posted them, are just wrong and can be harmful for the dogs if people take you seriously. So I'm sorry if you felt I ripped your head off, but I'm not sorry if it saved one dog from an owner that got misinformation in this forum.



> It makes it hard to help people when I don't feel welcomed on a board, thanks for that. How about using your aggression and inquisitive nature against people who don't give a rats butt about animals but think that they are doing a good job by smacking them when they do something wrong or telling them, good dog, to calm them down when they are trying to bit the vet or a groomer.


The difference is, those people aren't claiming to have expertise. Those people are here for advice, not here to educate. Can you really honestly tell us that if you saw someone come on and say it was a fact that American Eskimos should have black spots, and be brachycephalic, and that every Eskie that didn't have these features should be destroyed --- that you would sit there quietly???? Wrong information is wrong information, and when you consistently give out wrong information, then you should expect someone to point it out and contradict you.

And remember, these boards are for learning too. Try it, you might like it.


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## skelaki

"Ok, let's say this is true - what possible purpose would there be for you to know the standards of 200 breeds? It certainly isn't going to help in the veterinary profession. Wouldn't it be of more use if you concentrated on basic animal care, like dogs needing to be inside with their families, or what common medications (like aspirin) a dog can have? How will knowing if a dog's "stop" meets the standard help in your veterinary career? Seems to me that kind of information would only help if you wanted a career being an AKC judge."

Knows 200 breed standards? Wow! I've gone over the collie standard at least 100 times and I still wouldn't say that I truly know the standard. And now that I'm getting a TFT, I'm starting to read and study both the AKC and UKC standards for that breed. But 200? There aren't 200 breeds in the AKC so she must also be studying standards for UKC breeds? When did she have time to study or work? Amazing.

"And remember, these boards are for learning too. Try it, you might like it. "

You are absolutely right. But I have the feeling that she's still in the know-it-all stage of life. She'll probably get through it eventually. Most of us do. LOL


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## DogAdvocat

skelaki said:


> Knows 200 breed standards? Wow! I've gone over the collie standard at least 100 times and I still wouldn't say that I truly know the standard. And now that I'm getting a TFT, I'm starting to read and study both the AKC and UKC standards for that breed. But 200? There aren't 200 breeds in the AKC so she must also be studying standards for UKC breeds? When did she have time to study or work? Amazing.
> 
> "And remember, these boards are for learning too. Try it, you might like it. "
> 
> You are absolutely right. But I have the feeling that she's still in the know-it-all stage of life. She'll probably get through it eventually. Most of us do. LOL


I wondered about that 200 thing, but I was too lazy to look up the current count.  But I think there might be something else going on here. The claim is s/he owns two breeding "eskies" but I ran across a post in the thread asking what kind of dog everyone has, and s/he said s/he had a lab/akita mix and 2 Japanese Spitz. Nothing about American Eskimo in that post at all. And though the Japanese Spitz and the American Eskimo look similar, it would be like calling a Collie and a Shetland Sheepdog the same breed. Maybe s/he doesn't know the difference? Odd for someone who KNOWS 200 breed standards.


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## nrhareiner

If memory serves there is 157 reconized AKC breeds. There is about anouther 6 breeds in the miss. class registry and the FSS reg. has about anouther 54.

Heidi


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## jellojess13

Thank all of you! Regardless she is a beautiful and healthy little girl and I love her all the same ... maybe a little more just knowing she could have possibly came from such horrible conditions! So thank you guys once again...you all have given me some great advice and suggestions!


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## miranda

If the ACK is anything like the CKC it is a non-profit organization that promotes that buying a puppy from a responsible breed who has found out that the only way to spread the gospel about their particular breed is to put up with the bureaucracy and red tape of an organization that holds a monopoly on the dog community. And an ILP number is only for rescued dogs, so if you would like to participate in say obedience make sure to lie and say you got your puppy from the SPCA. Good luck with your new addition


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## DogAdvocat

miranda said:


> If the ACK is anything like the CKC it is a non-profit organization that promotes that buying a puppy from a responsible breed who has found out that the only way to spread the gospel about their particular breed is to put up with the bureaucracy and red tape of an organization that holds a monopoly on the dog community. And an ILP number is only for rescued dogs, so if you would like to participate in say obedience make sure to lie and say you got your puppy from the SPCA. Good luck with your new addition


Not true. Any purebred dog is eligible for an ILP. Here's info from the AKC website on this:
http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.cfm?SEARCH_BUTTON.X=16\&SEARCH_BUTTON.Y=12


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## Raggs

Before you start judging me how about asking why I know all these things and how long I've been studying dogs. Japanese Spitz and American Eskimo are the same breed. They became so popular in America that they got there name changed. They are still known by both names. If you ever go to a show you'll hear the announcers call them Japanese Spitz and then you'll hear them call them American Eskimos or Eskies. No I don't show my dogs, I have no desire to show them. Breeding a dog for show purposes is the wrong reason. I know several show dogs that have degenerative and genetic teeth problems, liver problems among other health issues. These breeders are still breeding them because they are "show" quality. Just because someone breeds them for show, doesn't mean that they are perfectly healthy. And actually yes knowing over 200 hundered breeds will help a veterinary profession. How many of you can say that you take your dog to a vet that knows every single health risk of the top of their head for every breed? I can't, I don't know one vet that knows that. They always have to look it up. I started studying about dogs when I was 7 years old. In dreams of becoming a veterinarian, a good one, that can actually help people. Like I stated in another post, I groomed a BLACK Shih Tzu Poodle mix that the vet said was a purebred Maltese. 

I'd suggest for you people who are jumping on my back questioning me about everything. If I didn't know it, I wouldn't post it. If I don't know something I will tell someone to consult their vet or something else, or I wouldn't post at all. I'm not a guesser. No I don't know every little thing about dogs, but I bet I know a lot more than any of you do. So next time you start criticizing someone, how about asking them something first, not just jumping to conclusions if they're stupid or not.

And btw, there are over 300 hundred dog breeds in the world. No they aren't all AKC known, but then it took 2 breeders years for the King Charles Spaniel to be recognized by the AKC. They take their time with recognizing breeds, they don't just throw them all on a list and call it good.

Tell me, how many of you can tell me about the Billy? Or have none of you heard of that breed? Don't believe me, look it up.


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## DogAdvocat

Let's stick with the subject. How many sizes of American Eskimo are there? How many sizes of Japanese Spitz are there? Why, if they are the same breed, is the number not the same?

And no one suggested that it might not be valuable for a vet to know the breeds and the diseases they are prone to, though being able to look it up would still be good because new diseases crop up in dogs all the time, especially puppymilled dogs. 

What was suggested was that it is of no value for a vet to know the breed standards, of which you said you knew 200. I'm curious about where the extra 50 or so that are not AKC breeds, get their standards. So please explain what use it is for a vet to know those standards, as intricate as they are. Do you not realize that most dogs are not bred to standard, and the average purebred that is brought into a vet is going to show little resemblance to the standard? So what good can it do? Will you recognize a puppymilled purebred as a purebred when they are so far from the standard? Will you assume that an oversized dog is not purebred because it is so different from the standard?

And btw, there are actually over 500 dog breeds in the world, so your claim of over 300 is a little low, but then you're not a guesser, right? You also might want to give your vet a break since some people have produced black maltese. Maybe you should read about that too? http://www.foxstonemaltese.com/maltese_breed_history.htm

I await to know more about your expertise with American Eskimo and Japanese Spitz, because I can only find information where they may have common ancestors, but they are different breeds with different countries of origins.


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## miranda

DogAdvocat said:


> Not true. Any purebred dog is eligible for an ILP. Here's info from the AKC website on this:
> http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.[/COLOR]cfm?SEARCH_BUTTON.X=16\&SEARCH_BUTTON.Y=12[/
> 
> Let’s say you got a dog with its individual breed registry papers, for example the Australian Shepherd Club of America, you have a purebred dog that should be able to get and ILP number right? Wrong! Your pedigreed dog has a traceable lineage and technically should be registered through "proper" channels. That means you have to try and trace your dogs pedigree back to the point until which you can find AKC registration and then register back down the line until you get your dog registered (that can start getting expensive). Parents, Grandparents etc. on both sides have to have AKC registration. "Enrollment in the Indefinite Listing program is not to be construed as an alternative form of registration, but rather, as a listing so that dogs who are _*ineligible*_ for AKC registration may participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events." The AKC would find a dog with an ASCA papers _eligible_ to be registered that means no ILP number, and you've just lost $35. The ILP number is for dogs that have no papers whatsoever. Not very nice of them not to mention that fact on the website is it?


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## skelaki

Miranda, you are correct in stating that the ILP is for dogs that are ineligible for AKC registration. But, this would include dogs that are registered with registries, such as working dog registries and individual breed registries where, for some reason, the dog could not be cross registered (i.e. the litter was not AKC registered). In such a case, the dog would not be eligible for full AKC registration and would be eligible for an ILP.


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## DogAdvocat

Sorry, I misspoke. What I should have said was that any purebred is eligible for an ILP IF his/her breed is recognized by the AKC. The North American Whatchamacallit is not going to be registerable no matter how pure he is.

Miranda, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying (other than the above).


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## miranda

What I'm saying is that if the dog has a tracible pedigree the AKC wants it registered through the regular channels, that means with a litter and through a breeder, then you can get full registration. They will not give you an ILP number if you can trace the pedigree through a breed registry, those dogs technically are able to get full registration (because they have a pedigree) and will not be granted an ILP number. I know it doesn't make sense but that is how it works. I would love to hear that things have changed but I have recently had a lot of experience with this whole (very frustrating) process.


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## skelaki

I believe it's as simple as this. If the dog you want to register is an AKC registered breed and the original breeder registered the litter with the AKC, then the dog would have to be registered via the regular registration process either full or limited registration depending on how the breeder registered the litter. But, if the dog is a recognized AKC breed and either the breeder never registered the litter or the dog's history cannot be traced, then the dog would be eligible for an ILP number as long as it met the criteria for one.


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## Snowshoe

miranda said:


> What I'm saying is that if the dog has a tracible pedigree the AKC wants it registered through the regular channels, that means with a litter and through a breeder, then you can get full registration. They will not give you an ILP number if you can trace the pedigree through a breed registry, those dogs technically are able to get full registration (because they have a pedigree) and will not be granted an ILP number. I know it doesn't make sense but that is how it works. I would love to hear that things have changed but I have recently had a lot of experience with this whole (very frustrating) process.


Your post confused me. I've been trying to make sense of it. 

So...if your dog is not registered with the AKC, as long as you can trace back the parents, you can still register it? 

How many generations back would that have to be? For example, I know that both mom and dad have to be registered before a pup can be, so wouldn't have to get the parents registered too? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. 

And I think a dog would have to be spayed before the AKC would grant then an ILP. Now, that's just what I've heard...


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## miranda

Snowshoe said:


> Your post confused me. I've been trying to make sense of it.
> 
> So...if your dog is not registered with the AKC, as long as you can trace back the parents, you can still register it?
> 
> How many generations back would that have to be? For example, I know that both mom and dad have to be registered before a pup can be, so wouldn't have to get the parents registered too? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
> 
> And I think a dog would have to be spayed before the AKC would grant then an ILP. Now, that's just what I've heard...


Let me give you a scenario. You have purchased an Australian Shepherd puppy from a breeder whole registers her dogs through ASCA. The father of your dog has dual membership with both AKC and ASCA and the mother has only ASCA papers. You later you decide that you would like to participate in obedince trials, so naturally you apply for an ILP number, when you hear back about your number you ar told that: _"Regrettably we are unable to comply with your request, as you have indicated that the sire and dam are registered with the Australian Sheperd Club of America. Please be advised that the intention of the ILP number program was to allow rescued dogs of a recoginzed breeds to compete in AKC events and not to be treated as an alternate form of registration for dogs represented and sold as purebreds. In accordance with the Animal Pedigree Act, if a dog is represented as a pure bred then a breeder is obligated to provide registration at no additional cost to the new owner and a breeder is in violation by selling without."_ Now you have found out that you do not actually own a purebred dog in the AKC's eyes. So you phone the AKC and ask how you can get around this road block and they will tell you since the father is AKC registered you can get the mother of the litter registered and apply by the normal means. But the mothers parents are not AKC registered so now what? The AKC will tell you to register them too but please keep in mind that there is a six year limit on back registration after the dog is born. Then you get a hold of the Board of Director member for you zone and they tell you that your current dog will not be able to be considered for an ILP number if you would like to persue obedience try getting another dog, "they do better in twos."


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## in luv w/ dogs 101

well um im not sure what the difference is of aca and akc but it sounds like you were ripped off you ethier need to sue or go to the manager or the owner and have a very serious talk about how you love your dog and she's worth the money but you need to tell him that what is employer did and then you might have your way but if you don't you will still have the dog to go home to and he/she will be there for you will love you and won't care how much you spent he/she will just be glad it u that bought her and not some whack job that is abusing her just think of it that way!!!


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## Hallie

My beagle puppy is UKC and AKC registered. The only difference really is the 
AKC is strict allowing ONLY purebreds to be registered with UKC you never know what is in your dog. It is too easy to a dog registered with the UKC. The AKC also holds more events. Most events are for purebreds only  but some mixed breeds can participate in, I think it varies by region though. We don't have a big dog community here, so not many AKC events are held at all. There is really nothing you can do at this point. Papers don't make your dog special or better. Just love your dog papers or not! You probably did get ripped off though. I can tell you my puppy was only $25 but my uncle raised her litter so I got a little off . If you got her from a petstore then you definitely paid alot more than you would've at a breeder's. You learn from mistakes though! At least you got her before another puppy mill did, who knows what you saved her from!


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## Dogstar

American Eskimo and Japanese Spitz are NOT the same breeds. ABSOLUTELY not. There was some Japanese Spitz used in the development of the modern AED, along with Keeshond, Pomeranian, and (mostly) white German Spitz of all sizes.


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## Lonewolfblue

miranda said:


> And an ILP number is only for rescued dogs, so if you would like to participate in say obedience make sure to lie and say you got your puppy from the SPCA.


I have to disagree with this. Any dog that a person feels is a purebreed can submit for an ILP, and the AKC determines whether you get the ILP or not by the pictures you submit, and whether or not they feel it's a purebreed or not. I have an ILP on my Betty, and didn't lie about anything, and didn't say anything about getting her from the SPCA. I'm also going to be registering Chloe here very soon as well, as we are wanting to do Obedience and Rally with her. As for Nell, she was already registered with the ABCA, so we just submitted the paperwork with copies of her ABCA and pics, and she's got her Open Registration, and will be doing Agility, as well as Rally.


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## Keechak

My Australian shepherd Kechara has a three generation pedigree with ASCA and I had to get an ILP on her to participate in Agility, obedience ex. because only her Sire was AKC registered


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## jesirose

Raggs said:


> Before you start judging me how about asking why I know all these things and how long I've been studying dogs. Japanese Spitz and American Eskimo are the same breed. They became so popular in America that they got there name changed. They are still known by both names. If you ever go to a show you'll hear the announcers call them Japanese Spitz and then you'll hear them call them American Eskimos or Eskies. No I don't show my dogs, I have no desire to show them. Breeding a dog for show purposes is the wrong reason. I know several show dogs that have degenerative and genetic teeth problems, liver problems among other health issues. These breeders are still breeding them because they are "show" quality. Just because someone breeds them for show, doesn't mean that they are perfectly healthy. And actually yes knowing over 200 hundered breeds will help a veterinary profession. How many of you can say that you take your dog to a vet that knows every single health risk of the top of their head for every breed? I can't, I don't know one vet that knows that. They always have to look it up. I started studying about dogs when I was 7 years old. In dreams of becoming a veterinarian, a good one, that can actually help people. Like I stated in another post, I groomed a BLACK Shih Tzu Poodle mix that the vet said was a purebred Maltese.
> 
> I'd suggest for you people who are jumping on my back questioning me about everything. If I didn't know it, I wouldn't post it. If I don't know something I will tell someone to consult their vet or something else, or I wouldn't post at all. I'm not a guesser. No I don't know every little thing about dogs, but I bet I know a lot more than any of you do. So next time you start criticizing someone, how about asking them something first, not just jumping to conclusions if they're stupid or not.
> 
> And btw, there are over 300 hundred dog breeds in the world. No they aren't all AKC known, but then it took 2 breeders years for the King Charles Spaniel to be recognized by the AKC. They take their time with recognizing breeds, they don't just throw them all on a list and call it good.
> 
> Tell me, how many of you can tell me about the Billy? Or have none of you heard of that breed? Don't believe me, look it up.


American Eskimo Dog and Japanese Spitz are not the same breed. 

NO reputable breeder would just breed the same pair of dogs over and over. You're not showing, are you involved in ANY groups or activities? Or just obsessed with cute fluffy puppies and memorizing random facts? 

Stop spewing stuff about Eskies and STOP breeding them. You're pissing off my sweet Eskie.


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## lovemygreys

Raggs said:


> Like I said above I know over 200 breeds, their standards, their health risks and diseases they are prone to, that's why I'm studying to become a vet, because I don't know one vet that know as much about breeds as I do...


ROFLMAO Oh, thanks for the laugh this morning. As for the rest...you sound like any other BYB'r using their dogs' reproductive organs to satiate their ego and trying to justify yourself by stringing together a bunch of words that really say nothing. Because actions speak louder than words.



DogAdvocat said:


> I have to disagree with the above posters on some points. One of the big problems with pet shop puppies is that many of them *are* AKC registered, and they still come from puppymills. But to the OP, all the other registries are worse. The AKC at least does refuse to register the dogs of breeders that have broken their rules, few as they are. The other registries don't care. And some pet shops even try to fool the public by issuing "Pet-a-gree" papers that they made up with their own graphics program on their own computer. And people fall for this. And there's nothing that can be done because it's not illegal - and neither are puppymills.
> 
> *So, to the OP, here's my question to you -- with all the education that humane societies, shelters, rescues, and other animal activists are constantly trying to get out to the public, why didn't you get the message? You could really help a lot by explaining how we missed the boat with you. Even Dateline on television ran some puppymill/pet shop exposes. And what the consensus is, is that the only way to stop it is to stop buying dogs from pet stores. So how are we going to stop that pet shop traffic if you, and people like you, aren't hearing our message? Please help us.*
> 
> As for your dog - love it and cherish it, and say a prayer for it's mama who is still in a cage somewhere, pumping out puppies so that those pet shop cages will be filled. Though puppymills are all over the country, a predominant amount of them are in the midwest and northeast. Think of her when the weather is freezing, because she's outside in a wire cage that cause her feet to hurt. Be sure to give your puppy nice toys, and think about his mama who will never have any. Be sure to give him a soft bed, and/or a blanket, because she'll never have that either. And be sure to give him good food, because the food she gets is the cheapest food possible, so it doesn't cut into the breeders profits. And be sure to get him good veterinary care, which is something else she will never have because it just costs more than the breeder thinks she is worth.
> 
> And please, please, please, educate yourself and help us pass the word so that the next person doesn't make the same mistake you did. That's the only thing that can be done.


Great post. I'd love it if the OP could answer the (bolded) question. I just don't know how anyone could think buying from a pet store is a good or humane idea.


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## NeedleNoseLuvR

Ummm, guys..... this thread was started over a year ago.


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## lovemygreys

NeedleNoseLuvR said:


> Ummm, guys..... this thread was started over a year ago.


Doh! That's what I get for posting before my morning coffee  LOL


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## heat_2008

I only read the op, didn't feel the need to read anything else after that. There is no help you can recieve, your first problem is you went to a pet store to get your puppy. Did you see it's parents, where it lived, or its medical history? Did you even think to ask? You never wondered where those puppies came from or how that got to the store? Are you aware of the conditions dogs are forced to live through in puppy mills? I'm pretty sure after 3 pages by now you do, somebody had to of informed you of your ill advised decision. It is because people like you are willing to buy puppies from unknown backgrounds that pet stores continue to exploit dogs.

With that said, she is your dog now and she'll grow to love you...assuming she doesnt have some behavorial issues. But uh, I'm pretty sure you can work through it should such situations arise. Enjoy your puppy


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## lester0127

all great post, but what so you guys think of Continental Kennel Club CKC I have a rottweiler that is CKC register after reading all of this I am a little concerned of how good CKC is


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## Keechak

Well what does the Continental Kennel club give you in return for your rottie being registered. A registtry is only as good as what they offer in return


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## GypsyJazmine

I just wanted to say that I was shocked & appalled at the misinformation being put forth in this thread!...The ignorance & willingness to show it amazes me!
Ty to the few of you (you know who you are) for correcting the ignorance with factual information!


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## Michiyo-Fir

Snowshoe said:


> Sorry you feel that way, Raggs.
> 
> I have to say that I agree with DA. If you don't show your dogs, you aren't breeding for the right reason.
> 
> How do you know your dogs are even on standard?
> 
> (btw, you didn't mention whether or not you do show, so I'm assuming you don't)
> 
> You sound like a well educated back yard breeder, to me.


I agree with both you guys. If one doesn't show, complete in agility, rally, herding, protection work, etc. Then their dogs have no reason to be bred. What is the goal of breeding the dog if it isn't conformationally correct or can do work that it was bred to do? It's one or the other really. Everyone else that breeds I consider BYBs unless they can explain to me why they are breeding and how it betters the breed.


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## Xeph

I just have to say that this thread is 8 months old...


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## BoxMeIn21

Xeph said:


> I just have to say that this thread is 8 months old...


Actually it's over two years old.


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## trumpetjock

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Actually it's over two years old.


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## BoxMeIn21

trumpetjock said:


>



LMAO! I love it!


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## Xeph

TJ finds the BEST thread pics EVER!


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## Independent George

Anyone know how the 'Top 10 Threads' are determined? I assume that is why this keeps getting resurrected.


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## LaurenBrady

I know this thread hasn't been active for some time, but I feel I need to reply. I breed Dachshunds, and I use to register all my dogs and puppies with the AKC. However, I have switched all of them over to ACA registration. The reasons I like the American Canine Association so much better than the American Kennel Club is that the ACA promotes health and companionship over beauty and working ability. The ACA keeps health records of all dogs, including eyes, knees, heart, hips, elbows, etc. The AKC does not. The ACA is much friendlier, still promotes dog shows and seminars, still promotes responsible breeding, etc. I disagree that puppymill dogs are more likely to be registered with the ACA. The only thing that makes AKC registration harder is that a dog that has produced or sired over 7 litters must be DNA'd with the AKC. The ACA does not do this. However, it is not hard to DNA a dog. I've done this before with several of my males, when I registered with the AKC. They send you a kit, you collect a sample of DNA, and send it back in. Then your dog can breed as much as you want it to. The ACA is more for dogs bred to be pets, but many people show with the ACA, too. I show, go to seminars, do extensive health testing, and only breed dogs with the best temperament. The AKC is all about looks. As long as a dog is up to the breed standard, a lot of AKC breeders do not bother to health test. When I was purchasing my first stud dog, I went to a breeder that was highly recomended by the Dachshunds Club of America. However, she did not even provide health guarentees for her puppies! Her reason was that many genetic conditions are not genetic, and are caused by how a dog is fed, raised, exercised, etc. While I tend to agree with this on a very limited number of health concerns, I found this to be terribly suspicious. I put health over breed standard any day. A very healthy dog that diverts from breed standard slightly, can still be bred. 

For example, one of my prized females, now retired and a couch dog, was a black brindle piebald. She is definately a one of a kind color. This would be unacceptable in the show ring, but she passed her dental, eye, heart, thyroid, vWD, liver, kidney, hip, elbow, and knee certification (all of which I require from all of my dogs before breeding). So, I bred four litters from her. She produced a Chocolate Double Dapple female (I kept for breeding), and a fawn piebald female (which I also kept for breeding). Both females passed all health examinations and, other than color, fit the breed standard perfectly. All of these females would have been considered unfit for breeding by the AKC and could not have been shown.


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## Xeph

> The ACA keeps health records of all dogs, including eyes, knees, heart, hips, elbows, etc. The AKC does not.


That's what OFA is for (and OFA numbers are listed on AKC pedigrees)



> the ACA promotes health and companionship over beauty and working ability.


Working ability and proper structure are still mportant in many breeds.



> The AKC is all about looks.


Bologna



> I went to a breeder that was highly recomended by the Dachshunds Club of America.


Directly from the DCA:
"The Dachshund Club of America makes no representations or warranties regarding the health of any animals or services provided by its members and has no liability to any one who purchases an animal or services from its members." 

AKA, just because they're DCA members doesn't mean they're good breeders.



> other than color, fit the breed standard perfectly


Did anybody actually evaluate them?


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## BorderGal

First of all, I have to say to JelloJess that I'm very sorry you were dupped in this manner. 

That being said, I have to ask (and I apologize if I missed it somewhere), why did you pay big bucks for this dog? Were you planning to show or breed?

Have you actually had the alleged microchip scanned and seen the number come up on the scanner? Is there really even a microchip in the dog or is there just a number on the paperwork?

Sadly, with the computer age, just about anything can be printed up to look legit and the scammers usually come up with names or initials which either sound legit and/or are close enough to the real deal that people don't catch it. This does not always come from the pet shop owner. They can be taken in, and/or don't care enough to check.

Years ago I was passing a large pet shop in what qualifies for downtown here and saw a littler of Queensland puppies in a x-pen in the middle of the store.
I went in pretending to be a ditzy customer, ooohhhing and ahhhing over the puppies. The owner came over and told me about the wonderful woman who breeds them and gave me the song 'n dance about their registry. I let him ramble on a while and then I let him have it with both barrels. 

Needless to say, he was pretty shocked and upset. He gave the lady $200 for the 6 puppies and she assured him he could sell the males for $200 and the females for $250 because they were "registered". Fortunately, he was a good guy (naive, into fish and always wanted to have a fish/pet store), so he signed the pups over to Rescue and never had a puppy or kitten for sale in the store again, having learned a pretty inexpensive lesson. 

The other good news which came out of this is he worked with Rescue and AC and called her about getting more pups, so we were able to bust her puppy mill operation. She did go to jail, not for operating a puppy mill but for fradulent business and non-payment of taxes.


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## Keechak

LaurenBrady said:


> I know this thread hasn't been active for some time, but I feel I need to reply. I breed Dachshunds, and I use to register all my dogs and puppies with the AKC. However, I have switched all of them over to ACA registration. The reasons I like the American Canine Association so much better than the American Kennel Club is that the ACA promotes health and companionship over beauty and working ability. The ACA keeps health records of all dogs, including eyes, knees, heart, hips, elbows, etc. The AKC does not. The ACA is much friendlier, still promotes dog shows and seminars, still promotes responsible breeding, etc. I disagree that puppymill dogs are more likely to be registered with the ACA. The only thing that makes AKC registration harder is that a dog that has produced or sired over 7 litters must be DNA'd with the AKC. The ACA does not do this. However, it is not hard to DNA a dog. I've done this before with several of my males, when I registered with the AKC. They send you a kit, you collect a sample of DNA, and send it back in. Then your dog can breed as much as you want it to. The ACA is more for dogs bred to be pets, but many people show with the ACA, too. I show, go to seminars, do extensive health testing, and only breed dogs with the best temperament. The AKC is all about looks. As long as a dog is up to the breed standard, a lot of AKC breeders do not bother to health test. When I was purchasing my first stud dog, I went to a breeder that was highly recomended by the Dachshunds Club of America. However, she did not even provide health guarentees for her puppies! Her reason was that many genetic conditions are not genetic, and are caused by how a dog is fed, raised, exercised, etc. While I tend to agree with this on a very limited number of health concerns, I found this to be terribly suspicious. I put health over breed standard any day. A very healthy dog that diverts from breed standard slightly, can still be bred.
> 
> For example, one of my prized females, now retired and a couch dog, was a black brindle piebald. She is definately a one of a kind color. This would be unacceptable in the show ring, but she passed her dental, eye, heart, thyroid, vWD, liver, kidney, hip, elbow, and knee certification (all of which I require from all of my dogs before breeding). So, I bred four litters from her. She produced a Chocolate Double Dapple female (I kept for breeding), and a fawn piebald female (which I also kept for breeding). Both females passed all health examinations and, other than color, fit the breed standard perfectly. All of these females would have been considered unfit for breeding by the AKC and could not have been shown.


Why would you take a hunting breed like your daschunds and breed them for companionship only? The breed is a hunting breed and to change that is to distroy the breed and turn it into something else. The only Daschund breeder I personally know registers her dogs with the AKC, she does earthdog events and also breeds for sound structure with health testing. 

The AKC also dose NOT stop you from breeding a dog that is not up to standard which is the same as the ACA. you can breed a pure white daschund with the AKC if you want too you just can't show it.

And WHY!! did your bitch produce a double dapple!!!?? Do you not care about the heath problems can can be suffered by double dapple puppies?


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## animalcraker

> The reasons I like the American Canine Association so much better than the American Kennel Club is that the ACA promotes health and companionship over beauty and working ability.


And how exactly do they do this? Working ability is also extreemely important in most breeds. There would be no point to having all the different breeds if they were all intended to just be lovely pets. And how is the AKC not promoting health and companionship? Sure they could do better, but you make it sound as if they are doing nothing at all.



> The ACA keeps health records of all dogs, including eyes, knees, heart, hips, elbows, etc. The AKC does not.


How would a potenial new owner find out about this health information? Is testing required for every dog before it's bred? is there a minimum passing score that the dogs must meet? 

Ever heard of OFA, CHIC or CHF?



> The ACA is much friendlier, still promotes dog shows and seminars, still promotes responsible breeding, etc.


How many dog shows do they have? Are they all over the nation or manly in one are? What do they consider responsible breeding and how do they promote it?



> The only thing that makes AKC registration harder is that a dog that has produced or sired over 7 litters must be DNA'd with the AKC. The ACA does not do this.


Why not? 7 litters is alot for most dogs. Is it not a good thing for purebreds as a whole to have DNA on frequetly used sires? 



> All of these females would have been considered unfit for breeding by the AKC and could not have been shown.


Many of the unusal colors have associated health issues that go hand in hand with them, hence why they are dissallowed in the AKC conformation ring. And I don't get how saying your dogs were unfit for AKC yet acceptable for ACA helps prove your point that the ACA is any better. By the way you could have still shown your dogs in the companion and earth dog events. And as long as they were register purbreds you cuold have bred them and registered with AKC.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest

LaurenBrady said:


> She produced a Chocolate Double Dapple female (I kept for breeding)


A great thing about ethical breeders: They would not have bred two dogs with dapple genes together to produce a double dapple (which can be horrid and I would think as a breeder you would be aware). They also wouldn't breed a double dapple. The one thing I'll agree with you about the AKC being bad is that they would recognize your double dapple as an acceptable pattern. If that is even true, I have only been told and I personally do not breed or have interest in doing so.

So, a good amount of things here are wrong to me and tell me breed registries are the least of your concerns. 1. You don't know how genetics work. 2. Or you do and purposely bred two dapples together to get your double dapple. 3. Your dogs are of unknown backgrounds so you were unaware you even had a dapple. 4. You don't know what DD means and are misinformed about your puppies markings. Or you've mistaken a Piebald for a dapple. In any case, stop breeding and learn genetics. Dachshunds are complicated to me and I don't breed.

This read was merged and recently topped and totally confused me.


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## Jmdarri

I purchased a great Westy from an independent breeder (family who had two dogs that had a litter). The registration papers are from ACA. I want to register the dog with AKC. Is there any way to do that or am I SOL?


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## LittleFr0g

This thread is several years old, you will get a much better response if you start a new thread for your question. As for your question, if the parents were not registered with AKC, you can not register the pup with them.


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## Pawzk9

The time to have done your homework would have been before you bought a puppy. And one of the first things that generally gets learned with homework is that you're not going to get a top quality pup from a high volume pet store, but you are probably going to pay more than you would for a well-bred pup. I don't know about ACA specifically, but there are a number of "paper mill" registries that less than responsible breeders use to avoid the requirements of AKC. Thing is, you have your puppy, you've let go of the money, and unless you are planning to show (or breed) her, registration isn't that important. And if you suspect she came from a less responsible breeder, or her registration is not legitimate, you wouldn't want to breed her anyway. If you want to breed, you'd want to really research the breed and the breeder and make sure that breeder is willing to act as a mentor. Otherwise, enjoy your pet for what she is.


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## trainingjunkie

If you are interested in showing in performance events, you can get an AKC number as long as you spay your dog. You can get a PAL number if she is indeed a purebred or you can register her as a mixed breed. Again, she must be spayed either way, but then you could show in agility, rally, obedience, earthdog...


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## Pawzk9

Snowshoe said:


> Sorry you feel that way, Raggs.
> 
> I have to say that I agree with DA. If you don't show your dogs, you aren't breeding for the right reason.
> 
> How do you know your dogs are even on standard?
> 
> (btw, you didn't mention whether or not you do show, so I'm assuming you don't)
> 
> You sound like a well educated back yard breeder, to me.


I get so sick of "puppy mill" and "backyard breeder" labels. I would rather look at the person and what they are breeding and why they are breeding it. Some are breeding for the right reasons and some are not, and many do some things right, but maybe not everything we'd like. But there is no definition of the above terms. Is any large high volume kennel (no matter how clean, and no matter how much socialization the dogs get) a "puppy mill"? Or does a "puppy mill" require filth and neglect? Is anyone who breeds for something other than conformation champions a "backyard breeder"? How about people who are preserving the breed standard and breeding true working dogs? Should we call them puppy mills and back yard breeders? According to PeTA and H$U$, anyone who breeds is one of the above.


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## Pawzk9

miranda said:


> DogAdvocat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not true. Any purebred dog is eligible for an ILP. Here's info from the AKC website on this:
> http://www.akc.org/reg/ilpex.[/COLOR]cfm?SEARCH_BUTTON.X=16\&SEARCH_BUTTON.Y=12[/
> 
> Let’s say you got a dog with its individual breed registry papers, for example the Australian Shepherd Club of America, you have a purebred dog that should be able to get and ILP number right? Wrong! Your pedigreed dog has a traceable lineage and technically should be registered through "proper" channels. That means you have to try and trace your dogs pedigree back to the point until which you can find AKC registration and then register back down the line until you get your dog registered (that can start getting expensive). Parents, Grandparents etc. on both sides have to have AKC registration. "Enrollment in the Indefinite Listing program is not to be construed as an alternative form of registration, but rather, as a listing so that dogs who are _*ineligible*_ for AKC registration may participate in AKC Companion and Performance Events." The AKC would find a dog with an ASCA papers _eligible_ to be registered that means no ILP number, and you've just lost $35. The ILP number is for dogs that have no papers whatsoever. Not very nice of them not to mention that fact on the website is it?
> 
> 
> 
> Not so. An Aussie who does not have a background of AKC recognition is ineligible for AKC registration. Therefore, dogs without AKC background is indeed for dogs that have no (AKC) papers. Unless they've reopened the registry, they don't care if the dog has ASCA papers (which are the only papers I truly value, though my dogs are also AKC, just to play at their games. (Aussie owner since 1970.)
Click to expand...


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## MochiBear

I purchased a gorgeous little 11 week old shiba inu puppy from an Amish man in northern Ohio about a week ago. He gave us an ACA registration paper with his signature on it. I was reading this thread about ACA vs AKC...would it be worth registering him with the ACA or is it as Curbside Prophet suggested, just a crap registry? Why would he have ACA registration papers and not AKC? We are not planning to show him but just wondered if we should get him registered. Thanks!!


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## Hallie

MochiBear said:


> I purchased a gorgeous little 11 week old shiba inu puppy from an Amish man in northern Ohio about a week ago. He gave us an ACA registration paper with his signature on it. I was reading this thread about ACA vs AKC...would it be worth registering him with the ACA or is it as Curbside Prophet suggested, just a crap registry? Why would he have ACA registration papers and not AKC? We are not planning to show him but just wondered if we should get him registered. Thanks!!


He's a puppy mill dog. You should have done your research before buying a dog. He can't be AKC because he has a crappy puppy mill breeder that only cares about money. Yes, ACA is a puppy mill registry, and worth absolutely nothing. It's used as a selling point by breeders. People think that a 'registered' puppy is purebred. 

So in short, you shouldn't have bought your dog where you bought him, and the papers are worth absolutely nothing.


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## MochiBear

Hallie said:


> He's a puppy mill dog. You should have done your research before buying a dog. He can't be AKC because he has a crappy puppy mill breeder that only cares about money. Yes, ACA is a puppy mill registry, and worth absolutely nothing. It's used as a selling point by breeders. People think that a 'registered' puppy is purebred.
> 
> So in short, you shouldn't have bought your dog where you bought him, and the papers are worth absolutely nothing.


Thanks, but it's too late it's not like I can or would take him back now. And I really couldn't have done any research as I saw a posting online for shiba pups, with the man's phone number and name and that was it. I contacted him later for his address. But that was really all I could find out about him. And it's not like I didn't know that purchasing from puppy mills is bad. So it's not super helpful that you're chiding me after the fact for not doing something I couldn't do. But thanks for answering my question, I will not register him with the ACA.


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## Xeph

The research she is talking about involves talking to different breeders, researching health, researching the breed, etc. It would have gotten you a better quality puppy most likely. But you have the dog you have and you can love him just the same.


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## chancesassy

Ok my question is why is akc so great? I have a aca and akc t hey had pupsy had DNA test on the litter Wichita asked wherw they was reg threw for some reason I say my aca is the better of the 2 and akc is out to take. It all and the results said purebred by the way akc has just been around longer aca has shows as well maybe. Akc is more about that than aca


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## Doglovr82

jellojess13 said:


> Okay I really hope there is someone out there who can possibly help me. I recently purchased a beautiful beagle from a high volume pet store. The papers I received with her states that she is registered with the American Canine Association. Can someone tell me or explain to me the difference. I have been doing some research and have found many sites to refer to the ACA as a "bogus registery" if this is so, is there anything I can do? I have payed a great deal of money which I do feel she is worth it ...but honestly if she was bred from a "puppy mill" then isn't there anything to do about this?? And it also states she is microchipped but when I went to register that on the ACA website...it does not work. Imagine that. Please someone Help me!!! I am so upset and confused.


Hi! Here is information on both the ACA and AKC organizations. They are both reputable registries but offer different services. I hope this helps!
The American Kennel Club, Inc. (American Kennel Club) is the oldest and largest dog registry in the United States. The American Canine Association, Inc. (https://www.acainfo.com) is the second largest dog registry in the United States. Both AKC and ACA have dog shows, but AKC has a greater number of dog shows.

As of 04/12/2020, AKC’s standard registration rate for a dog is $37.99. AKC’s dog registration certificates are 3.5-inch (height) x 8.5-inches (width) printed on heavy weight paper. ACA’s standard registration rate for a dog is $19.00. ACA’s dog certificates are 11-inch (height) x 8.5-inches (width) printed on certificate paper with a gold seal.

AKC charges late-penalty fees for dog registrations:
LATE FEE – OVER 6 MONTHS AFTER LITTER REGISTERED $4.99
LATE FEE – OVER 12 MONTHS AFTER LITTER REGISTERED $35.00
LATE FEE – OVER 24 MONTHS AFTER LITTER REGISTERED $65.00
AKC’s late fees can be viewed on Fee Schedule – American Kennel Club. 

ACA does not charge customers any late-penalty fees for dog registrations.

AKC charges an additional $10.00 per registration if the customer wishes to add a co-owner to the dog. ACA adds one or more co-owners to a dog free of charge.

AKC’s microchip division for lost & found protection is AKC Reunite (Pet Microchips | Lost Pet Recovery | AKC Reunite). ACA’s microchip division for lost & found protection is MARRS Microchip (ACA's Microchip Animal Rapid Recovery Services (M.A.R.R.S.) - Home Page). AKC charges customers $54.95 for AKC Registration + lifetime AKC Reunite lost & found coverage. ACA charges customers $19.00 for ACA Registration + lifetime ACA MARRS Microchip lost & found coverage. Both AKC and ACA are participating companies with the American Animal Hospital Association (Participating Microchipping and Pet Recovery Services | AAHA Universal Pet Microchip Lookup).

AKC’s standard litter registration fee is $25.00 plus and additional $2.00 fee per puppy in the litter. ACA’s standard litter registration fee is $18.00 with no additional fees for each puppy in the litter.

AKC charges late-penalty fees for litter registrations:
LATE FEE – OVER 12 MONTHS AFTER LITTER REGISTERED $35.00
LATE FEE – OVER 24 MONTHS AFTER LITTER REGISTERED $65.00
AKC’s late fees can be viewed on Fee Schedule – American Kennel Club.

ACA does not charge customers any late-penalty fees for litter registrations.

ACA also includes lost & found tags with their dog registrations free of charge. The ACA tags have their official seal on one side of the tag. On the other side of the tag is says: “I am lost. Please call” and a toll-free 1-800 number along with a unique ID number exclusively for the dog. The 1-800 numbers are answered by live operators 24 hours a day / 7 days a week to reunite the lost dog with the ACA owner. There is no additional annual or lifetime fees for this service. It is included in the initial $19.00 ACA registration fee.


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## RonE

13 year old thread.


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