# Border Collie or Dalmation??? HELP



## Sebastian_Doggs

Hey I've never had a dog b4 and am wondering if I should get a Dalmation or a Border Collie puppy. I know these dog breeds are better off with a more experianced owner, but I love these 2 breeds very much. Which one would be easier to raise for a first time owner though?



















Thnx very much.


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## melgrj7

What is your lifestyle like? How much exercise is the dog going to get? How often are you going to be able to take it out and socialize it? Can you afford to take it to obedience classes? Can you do daily training sessions? Do you have a job for the dog to do?


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## Sebastian_Doggs

melgrj7 said:


> What is your lifestyle like? How much exercise is the dog going to get? How often are you going to be able to take it out and socialize it? Can you afford to take it to obedience classes? Can you do daily training sessions? Do you have a job for the dog to do?


Well I'm a student, so I'll be at school for most time on weekdays. My dad is at work for about most of the day but my mom is a stay-at-home mom so she's home most of the day. I'd say we're a pretty active family. I LOVE sports, basketball the most and so does my family. The dog will be taken outside to be walked every day, and will be taken where ever we go, so he will be socialized. Money I don't think is a problem for my family. I might not be able to train my dog everyday (exams, tests etc), but I'm sure my parents or my sister will. I'm also pretty confident that I will do a good job training the dog as I am a big "The Dog Whisperer" fan  As for a job, I'll probably train him how to fetch the newspaper, bring down the laundry etc. I don't live on a farm or anything so I won't have any intense jobs for him to do like herding animals or anything. 

Do you guys have any ideas for jobs I can give my dog?


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## Marsh Muppet

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> I know these dog breeds are better off with a more experianced owner, but I love these 2 breeds very much.


Find new breeds to love. Don't get me wrong, both are great breeds but they are pretty wrong for a first timer. 

Border Collies are very demanding of time, training, and patience. They are high-drive, high-NRG pups, and can be very strong willed. They think they are smarter than their humans, and they are frequently correct in that assessment. Ask any of the folks who have one; they keep even experienced BC owners on the balls of their feet.

Dalmatians are often very strong willed and can be pretty quick to bite. When I was a kid, Dals were extremely popular and everybody I knew had been bitten by one. Back in the 1980s, black and white/harlequin patterns became the trendy fashion and lots of Dalmatians began showing up as fashion accessories. I saw the same temperaments in those dogs. Not that they can't be trained to be good citizens (they absolutely can) but they require the correct hand to become that. It is a breed I would not recommend for a first timer. They are big dogs and stronger than they look.

There are better choices for your first dog.


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## BarclaysMom

I'd say Dalmatian if you don't have a real job for a border collie. In fact you might want to see if you can find an adult dalmatian that needs a home. Our Dal was 3 or 4 when we got him, and he was active right up until the end when he was 11-12. They are very active dogs, they love long walks and hiking, they tend to trot everywhere. They have a very easygoing, floating trot that covers a lot of ground. They were bred to run alongside horses! They can be a real handful as pups, but once they settle down a bit they are fantastic dogs.

Backyard breeders have produced a lot of dals without thought to health and temperment, so if you get a puppy be sure to get one form a reputable breeder. Ours was a rescue, and had a lot of health problems. But aside form his issues he was very loving and big hearted.


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## melgrj7

I don't have much experience with dalmations, but I grew up with a border collie mix. She needed to be kept busy all of the time, or she did it herself. I was an extremely active kid and never was able to tire her out. When i was in school my mom was home and would walk her and our other dog during the day. Lucky learned new tricks almost daily, she new tons of tricks. Since you are living with your family and they will be helping with caring for the dog, make sure they will all be willing to do a lot to keep a dog busy if you decide on a border collie. They also tend to be more sensitive type dogs and don't do well to the "dog whisperer" way of training. Despite your fandom I still highly recommend you take your pup, which ever type you get, to a puppy class and then onto a basic obedience class. There is a lot more to training a dog than poking it and intimidating it.

Both the breeds you are interested in have been bred to go all day long. They have a lot of physical and mental exercise needs. Some things you could get into with them would be obedience, agility, rally-o, flyball.


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## craven.44

Neither. Go down to your local shelter and find yourself a nice older puppy/adult dog that you like and that fits your lifestyle.


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## Sebastian_Doggs

melgrj7 said:


> I don't have much experience with dalmations, but I grew up with a border collie mix. She needed to be kept busy all of the time, or she did it herself. I was an extremely active kid and never was able to tire her out. When i was in school my mom was home and would walk her and our other dog during the day. Lucky learned new tricks almost daily, she new tons of tricks. Since you are living with your family and they will be helping with caring for the dog, make sure they will all be willing to do a lot to keep a dog busy if you decide on a border collie. They also tend to be more sensitive type dogs and don't do well to the "dog whisperer" way of training. Despite your fandom I still highly recommend you take your pup, which ever type you get, to a puppy class and then onto a basic obedience class. There is a lot more to training a dog than poking it and intimidating it.
> 
> Both the breeds you are interested in have been bred to go all day long. They have a lot of physical and mental exercise needs. Some things you could get into with them would be obedience, agility, rally-o, flyball.



Alright. Don't worry, I will take my pup to basic obedience classes. Haha ya I know theres more to it than poking and intimidating the. Being the pack leader and not the follower is the most important for me. Thanks for the advice



BarclaysMom said:


> I'd say Dalmatian if you don't have a real job for a border collie. In fact you might want to see if you can find an adult dalmatian that needs a home. Our Dal was 3 or 4 when we got him, and he was active right up until the end when he was 11-12. They are very active dogs, they love long walks and hiking, they tend to trot everywhere. They have a very easygoing, floating trot that covers a lot of ground. They were bred to run alongside horses! They can be a real handful as pups, but once they settle down a bit they are fantastic dogs.
> 
> Backyard breeders have produced a lot of dals without thought to health and temperment, so if you get a puppy be sure to get one form a reputable breeder. Ours was a rescue, and had a lot of health problems. But aside form his issues he was very loving and big hearted.


Thanks for the advice. I heard that they are hard to train, is that true?


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## BarclaysMom

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> Thanks for the advice. I heard that they are hard to train, is that true?


Ours was as dumb as a post, but he was really exceptional!  It wasn't his fault, he was badly abused and beaten before we got him. Many of the other dalmatians I met through the rescue were really smart, one even worked with the local fire department in the public outreach programs (she could demonstrate "stop,drop,and roll" for the kids) and rode the firetruck in parades. And she was deaf and did it all with hand signals. Her owner was very devoted to her to get her that far.

Our first dog was an eskimo, which is not recommended as a first-timers dog, and our second dog was a dalamatian! So I take the 'recommended for first-timers' thing with a grain of salt. The important thing is to be as devoted to your dog as he is to you, and work with him and give him the exercise and the time he needs. All breeds seem to have their special challenges!

Check out petfinder.com to see what sort of dogs are available in shelters and rescues near you. The perfect dog might be there waiting for you to come along!


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## SMoore

I've seen so many border collies returned to shelters because people get the dog, think "oh what a cute furry creature" and then that creature grows up into this dog that NEEDS A JOB.

Border collies are very smart dogs but they are demanding, they need SOMETHING to do and room to RUN. My parents had a border collie growing up and they had a huge yard (about 2 acres including the house though) but anyway every time it would thunder or even look like rain the dog would get over the fence and go a few blocks over to the donut shop.

My dad made the mistake of taking Riley with him to get donuts one morning and the lady gave the dog some donut holes, ever since that day anytime it rained or even would thunder, even if it felt like rain the dog would show up there. They had Riley for a good long while about 15 years before he had to be put to sleep but that dog was a handful. He was really the worlds worst dog, but we all loved him to pieces.

He ate my clothes, my books, tore my room apart, ate our air conditioner, christmas lights, a few couches, the corners of anything made out of wood, chair legs, jackets hanging on chairs, remotes, even got into christmas cookies one year but that was the most fun dog i've ever had. I was only 7 or 8 at the time so I knew nothing about training dogs and you can be sure my parents were not going to do it.

Anyhow, they are wonderful dogs and have a ton of personality but they are a handful and you have to be sure you can dedicate time to training them.

I also had a rough collie growing up and she was the best dog ever. Have you considered one of those? I was still young when my parents got her but I remember training her and her following me around the neighborhood. I never really put a dog leash on her, i didn't know better I guess but she never left my side. I took that dog with me everywhere and my parents would walk her up to school to pick me up every day. She was awesome! She didn't seem to have quite as much energy as the border collie but was still pretty active.










I don't know much about dalmations. I've met plenty of mean ones so I'm probably not the best to pitch in about them.


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## briteday

Neither. Both breeds are high maintenance. If you do not live on a farm or ranch there will not be enough work for the dog to work off their endless energy and you will end up with a miserable dog and a miserable mom. 

You said this is supposed to be your dog. But most days you are gone all day. Only "basic obedience" isn't going to cut it. I guarantee you that the border collie is smarter than you are about dogs right now, and the dalmation has more energy than you do after a full day of school. These dogs need a job, a real job...herding cattle, watching a flock, running like the wind...all day, every day. Basketball doesn't really cut it for a dog. And what about when you are old enough to go to college. Who takes care of the dog then? Dogs are a long term investment. Where will you be 12 years from now?

Don't dump on your mom every day and then blame her when things go bad. Instead go volunteer at a shelter. You will get plenty of experience with these breeds as they are very commonly surrendered by owners due to behavior issues, generally a result of boredom. If you still want one of these breeds you may be able to find an adult dog to adopt that has been well trained and settled down a bit. If not one of those breeds there are zillions of great adult dogs that can be well mannered and would make a great pet for you. 

But I see the first order of business is educating yourself about dogs in general and give up the notion of instant gratification in the form of a puppy from a breed "that you love." You don't know you love the breed until you have worked with a few.

The second order of business is to give up on that "dog whisperer" stuff. Milan is not a professional and the tv show clearly states not to try those techniques at home. Seeing only 6 minutes of how he remediates a dog is not the whole story. And don't believe everything you see on tv.


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## tirluc

if you're a "big "'Dog Whisperer'" fan, i highly recommend NOT getting a Border (and i would really say the same for just about any breed)....you use half the methods that Milan uses on a Border Collie they will literally "shut down" on you (i've only met one BC that his methods would work for and that was due to owners stupidity [nasty ass dog])....they do not take kindly to the heavy handed training that he tends to use.....

also, they really need more activity than it seems you will be able to give, and unless you want your house redecorated, your yard relandscaped, etc. i wouldn't recommend a Border.....i don't know much about Dals having only trained 2 along time ago....

i have 5 Borders here....one is a new foster and the other 4 are working dogs (goosing) and are w/ me 24/7.....there is constant interaction even if it's just talking w/ them......we spend about 2-3 hrs at the park (dog club yard) playing ball, working directions, downs, stays, agility when we can, etc., plus they have each other when i am not physical/mentally playing w/ them....


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## Sebastian_Doggs

briteday said:


> Neither. Both breeds are high maintenance. If you do not live on a farm or ranch there will not be enough work for the dog to work off their endless energy and you will end up with a miserable dog and a miserable mom.
> 
> You said this is supposed to be your dog. But most days you are gone all day. Only "basic obedience" isn't going to cut it. I guarantee you that the border collie is smarter than you are about dogs right now, and the dalmation has more energy than you do after a full day of school. These dogs need a job, a real job...herding cattle, watching a flock, running like the wind...all day, every day. Basketball doesn't really cut it for a dog. And what about when you are old enough to go to college. Who takes care of the dog then? Dogs are a long term investment. Where will you be 12 years from now?
> 
> Don't dump on your mom every day and then blame her when things go bad. *Instead go volunteer at a shelter. You will get plenty of experience with these breeds as they are very commonly surrendered by owners due to behavior issues, generally a result of boredom.* If you still want one of these breeds you may be able to find an adult dog to adopt that has been well trained and settled down a bit. If not one of those breeds there are zillions of great adult dogs that can be well mannered and would make a great pet for you.
> 
> But I see the first order of business is educating yourself about dogs in general and give up the notion of instant gratification in the form of a puppy from a breed "that you love." You don't know you love the breed until you have worked with a few.
> 
> The second order of business is to give up on that "dog whisperer" stuff. Milan is not a professional and the tv show clearly states not to try those techniques at home. Seeing only 6 minutes of how he remediates a dog is not the whole story. And don't believe everything you see on tv.


Thats acutally a fantastic idea. I need volenteer time any ways. Oh and don't worry, I will drop the Dog Whisperer stuff. 



tirluc said:


> if you're a "big "'Dog Whisperer'" fan, i highly recommend NOT getting a Border (and i would really say the same for just about any breed)....you use half the methods that Milan uses on a Border Collie they will literally "shut down" on you (i've only met one BC that his methods would work for and that was due to owners stupidity [nasty ass dog])....they do not take kindly to the heavy handed training that he tends to use.....
> 
> also, they really need more activity than it seems you will be able to give, and unless you want your house redecorated, your yard relandscaped, etc. i wouldn't recommend a Border.....i don't know much about Dals having only trained 2 along time ago....
> 
> i have 5 Borders here....one is a new foster and the other 4 are working dogs (goosing) and are w/ me 24/7.....there is constant interaction even if it's just talking w/ them......we spend about 2-3 hrs at the park (dog club yard) playing ball, working directions, downs, stays, agility when we can, etc., plus they have each other when i am not physical/mentally playing w/ them....


Lol. You guys must think I'm a robot or something. Just cause I like a show does not mean I'll do everything he does. I believe I said that it was a good show, not that Milan's techniques were good. Thank you for the adivce, much appreciated.


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## SMoore

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> Thats acutally a fantastic idea. I need volenteer time any ways. Oh and don't worry, I will drop the Dog Whisperer stuff.
> Thnx for the advice


I don't think you need to not watch it, but some of his techniques are a bit harsh. I like the show for entertainment purposes. I think he's a wonderful person for how he's helped many dogs who would have probably otherwise been put down be able to have a life.

As far as actual training I much prefer "It's me or the dog" on animal planet. But even she gets on my nerves after awhile. I don't even think it's the trainer, just the people she encounters. It's a show you might check out though and even enjoy!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Why do you want a dog?

Because while I own neither Border Collies or Dalmations...I do own a breed that is very very high energy and high maintenance. 

And with your scheduale I have say that Dals And BCs and similar energy level breeds will bring you nothing but trouble.

So why do you want a dog?


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## Sebastian_Doggs

SMoore said:


> I don't think you need to not watch it, but some of his techniques are a bit harsh. I like the show for entertainment purposes. I think he's a wonderful person for how he's helped many dogs who would have probably otherwise been put down be able to have a life.
> 
> As far as actual training I much prefer "It's me or the dog" on animal planet. But even she gets on my nerves after awhile. I don't even think it's the trainer, just the people she encounters. It's a show you might check out though and even enjoy!


ha, alright thnx, I'll do that.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Why do you want a dog?


The biggest reason is because I want a companion, friend, someone that will be by my side no matter what. Also because I've always wanted a dog and love animals.


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## Laurelin

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> ha, alright thnx, I'll do that.
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest reason is because I want a companion, friend, someone that will be by my side no matter what. Also because I've always wanted a dog and love animals.


I would honestly look into rescue first. There are plenty of adult dogs that could do that, possibly even a BC or dalmatian type mix. A border collie is not the type of dog you get where you might not be the main caregiver. Everyone in the house needs to understand the breed and their special needs. They don't need sheep, but they need a lot of time and energy put into them to be good dogs. I can't tell you how many border collies and bc mixes we get in because of their energy level or for destroying their house. I have wanted one for a LONG time, but my parents weren't too keen on such a high drive breed, and there's no way I'm getting one while I have room mates now. I will have one, maybe not as my next dog, but eventually. It's good to get a kind of dog you like, but it's best to get one that suits you. While you live with your parents, I found out it's basically what they want. I always asked for a dog and ended up with a totally different one that my parents thought would be a better pet for the family.

Also, keep in mind that you will move out in the future. If the dog is going to stay with your parents, then it is definitely up to them as to whether you can even get one or not. 

Volunteering is a great idea. I started while I had no dog (dorm living) and I continued on. You get a lot of experience with many different kinds of breeds. Plus you get to help homeless dogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

What attracts you...specifically...about the Dal and the BC?


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## PugChick

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> a companion, friend, someone that will be by my side no matter what. Also because I've always wanted a dog and love animals.


That describes most dogs you can find in the shelter. 

The only sane BC I ever met was owned by a man who used him to work cattle. I think they are great dogs but I wouldn't own one unless I had enough land to give the dog a real job. 

I love dals (I think it's a holdover because I used to have appaloosas) but I couldn't keep one of those busy either. They were originally bred as coach dogs, and they still have road trials at dal shows. A dog that can keep up with a horse at a steady trot all day long for miles and miles and miles isn't going to be happy with an hour walk.


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## Dogstar

A dalmatian MAY bite you and absolutely will NOT listen to you if you're heavy-handed and into the 'pack leader' crap. I think a senior dog of some much more laid back breed would fit better with your schedule and your life.


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## briteday

As far as those two breeds...

Every BC I've met were high energy and needed work

I've met a few nice dals, but a well-bred dalmation is not cheap. We have a dalmation breeder in town who does a great job. But I could buy a used car for what she charges for her puppies. I think the breed started to have temperment problems in a big way after the dalmation movies came out and everyone wanted one. We saw dalmations in the shelter for 3-4 years after that. Now we see one every now and then.

And I too am curious, OP...what attracts you to the dalmation and border collie breeds? Maybe we could help you figure out something that might be a better fit for your family, schedule, ...also, are you in a cold climate or temperate? I might also suggest that when you find a dog that you get involved in your local 4H dog club, if there is one. My daughter had a great time with other kids and their dogs, made incredible training progress with the first dog of her very own because the trainers know how to teach techniques to young people, and that dog is still the best behaved in our house!

Good luck!


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## Sebastian_Doggs

briteday said:


> As far as those two breeds...
> 
> Every BC I've met were high energy and needed work
> 
> I've met a few nice dals, but a well-bred dalmation is not cheap. We have a dalmation breeder in town who does a great job. But I could buy a used car for what she charges for her puppies. I think the breed started to have temperment problems in a big way after the dalmation movies came out and everyone wanted one. We saw dalmations in the shelter for 3-4 years after that. Now we see one every now and then.
> 
> And I too am curious, OP...what attracts you to the dalmation and border collie breeds? Maybe we could help you figure out something that might be a better fit for your family, schedule, ...also, are you in a cold climate or temperate? I might also suggest that when you find a dog that you get involved in your local 4H dog club, if there is one. My daughter had a great time with other kids and their dogs, made incredible training progress with the first dog of her very own because the trainers know how to teach techniques to young people, and that dog is still the best behaved in our house!
> 
> Good luck!


Yeah I know. If you buy Dal from a breeder its about $1000-$1200 bucks Canadian. Ya, I heard about that too. After that movie came out everyone went crazy and many of them didn't even know what they were doing. What attracted me to these breeds was their intellegence, size ( I prefer medium sized dogs), don't shed as much etc. I live in Toronto so in the summer the temperature can go up to 35 degrees celcius, and in the winter can go all the way down to -20 degrees celcius. I've actually started thinking about getting a lab retriever, but am still reserching on it.

Thnx for you help!


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## tirluc

PugChick said:


> The only sane BC I ever met was owned by a man who used him to work cattle. I think they are great dogs but I wouldn't own one unless I had enough land to give the dog a real job.


mine aren't out working all day long, but they are kept stimulated in many different ways.....you don't need livestock for them to work but they do need a job of sorts...that can be anything that will work the brain and give them exercise....everyone of mine is perfectly sane...


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## BarclaysMom

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> What attracted me to these breeds was their intellegence, size ( I prefer medium sized dogs), don't shed as much etc.


Someone may have led you astray there - they shed EVERYWHERE  Little black and white short hairs that get stuck down into the weave of fabrics so they don't easily come back off. 

Our dog was one of those bred by bad breeders to cash in on the popularity of the movies. He was sold to a family that obviously couldn't handle him, and they beat him badly. Then they dumped him out in the woods to fend for himself. He suffered all sorts of health problems, some from bad breeding, some from abuse, for the rest of his life. But even after all that he never had a mean bone in his body, and everyone who met him thought he had the biggest heart a dog ever had.


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## Laurelin

> Someone may have led you astray there - they shed EVERYWHERE Little black and white short hairs that get stuck down into the weave of fabrics so they don't easily come back off.


Lol, was going to say that. My friend has three dalmatians. Lots of hair.


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## melgrj7

Labs shed like crazy too! Instead of thinking about breeds for the moment, how about you list different things you would like in a dog.

energy needs (a dog that can be happy with a daily 30 minute stroll, or ?)
trainability (do you want a dog you can teach a couple tricks and be happy, or do you want a dog that needs to learn, daily)
grooming (quick once a week brush down, or daily brushing)
long or short hair
shedding amount
temperment (do you want a dog that warms up quickly to strangers, or one that is more aloof and tends to require extra socialization)
health concerns (do you want a breed with minimal health issues, or are you prepared to handle possible major health problems)
looks/size


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## tirluc

Laurelin said:


> Lol, was going to say that. My friend has three dalmatians. Lots of hair.



and hair from a Border?...we won't even go there.....


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## Sebastian_Doggs

melgrj7 said:


> Labs shed like crazy too! Instead of thinking about breeds for the moment, how about you list different things you would like in a dog.
> 
> energy needs (a dog that can be happy with a daily 30 minute stroll, or ?)
> trainability (do you want a dog you can teach a couple tricks and be happy, or do you want a dog that needs to learn, daily)
> grooming (quick once a week brush down, or daily brushing)
> long or short hair
> shedding amount
> temperment (do you want a dog that warms up quickly to strangers, or one that is more aloof and tends to require extra socialization)
> health concerns (do you want a breed with minimal health issues, or are you prepared to handle possible major health problems)
> looks/size


Energy needs: A dog that would be happy with an hours lenth of walking
trainability: Somewhere in between. A dog that wants to learn new tricks but not daily
grooming: A dog with grooming needs once a week or something like that would be nice
shedding amount. A dog that does not shed a lot
temperment: a more social dog, warms up to strangers more easily.
health concerns: A breed of dog without any health problems that occur very frequently
Size: Medium
Looks: Anything but black colored ( I was once chased by a black dog down a street )


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## SMoore

Hmm what about a corgi? I've heard they are great first time dogs. I've never had one but my boyfriends uncle does and his dog is so calm and gentle. Didn't beg at the table during Thanksgiving either! The only thing is im not too sure about their shedding.










Another breed I thought of is a giant schnauzer, i believe they are light shedders, they might need grooming appointments if you want them in their standard schnauzer cut but the ones i've met have been friendly dogs and easy to approach. I haven't met very many though.










They are a bit smaller but another breed that came to mind for you to maybe consider is the West Highland Terrier, they are cute little dogs and don't seem to require much grooming and would probably be happy with an hour walk or so a day. They might need brushing to keep from getting tangled, but i dont think they shed too much.










Just research breeds that fit what you mentioned, and if you are at a shelter you might just find a cute mix of some of the breeds you read about and would be able to give a homeless a home. All of my dogs are rescues or were in need of a home and I got lucky with Max and Pandora as I love german shepherds and happened to find two that needed homes. You can also find breed specific rescue groups which is how I got Pandora. There are plenty of mixed breeds and pure bred dogs alike that need forever homes. 

I can spend hours just browsing petfinder.com you should try it, you never know who you might meet!

Also go out and meet several dogs, not the first cute one you find. Take the dog for a walk, interact and see if you fit well with one another. It's not just about you finding the dog you want but also finding a dog that wants to be with you as well. If you do your research i am confident you will find a dog you can bond with and hopefully have many years to share together.


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## Lonewolfblue

Well, here's my opinion. While both dogs normally shouldn't be a first dog, I would say if you are only interested in these 2, then go with the Border Collie. Dalmations, if not given the proper care and training, may end up being something you really don't want. Like mentioned earlier, they are bull-headed and can bite. Border Collies on the other hand are very people oriented. Every BC that I've met, and currently own one, love people and other dogs. Mine just happened to live on a farm where she wasn't properly socialized when she was young, so she's shy of most men, but is great with most females and all kids. She had never seen a grown man before til I went to pick her up, and I got her at 11 months. Other than that minor training issue I'm working on, she's a total lovebug.

So if I were you and only had those choices, I would prefer the BC.

Now, how about a dog from a shelter? There's lots of great dogs there, and are usually quite a few BC mixes, as well as BC purebreeds there. At the Humane Society here, they had a beautiful male BC, purebreed, that the people could no longer keep for one reason or another, and he ended up at the shelter. I met him today, and there was a guy that had driven all the way from Seattle just to meet him, and was struggling with a decision. After our talk, I believe he went in and started the adoption process. He was a beautiful 2yo male BC. 

Another option you have is look for a breed-specific shelter if you are only wanting that particular breed. There's many BC Rescues out there. Not sure on the Dalmations, but I kind of recommend staying away from them unless you have had experience with them, or are an experienced dog owner. My Nell came from a gal that just needed to rehome her. She wanted to do herding classes with her, but just didn't have the time. Then she decided to go back to school, and that took even more of her time, and contacted the breeder that she got Nell from to help her rehome Nell. So the breeder contacted me because she thought Nell would do well with me, and gave me the gals email and number if I was still interested in a BC. So I took her in. And really glad I did, Nell is awsome.

Another option is to contact a breeder, if you have time and not looking at getting one immediately, and ask them if they could contact you if anyone that got a pup from them contacts them reguarding needing to rehome the dog, like what happened with my Nell. Many (not all) breeders, like the one Nell came from, really cares about their pups and where they end up.


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## Marsh Muppet

Dogstar said:


> A dalmatian MAY bite you and absolutely will NOT listen to you if you're heavy-handed and into the 'pack leader' crap.


The depth of knowledge on this site is astounding.


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## Willowy

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> Energy needs: A dog that would be happy with an hours lenth of walking
> trainability: Somewhere in between. A dog that wants to learn new tricks but not daily
> grooming: A dog with grooming needs once a week or something like that would be nice
> shedding amount. A dog that does not shed a lot
> temperment: a more social dog, warms up to strangers more easily.
> health concerns: A breed of dog without any health problems that occur very frequently
> Size: Medium
> Looks: Anything but black colored ( I was once chased by a black dog down a street )


OK, you do not want a puppy of any breed. Puppies need hours of attention every day, for about 18 months, at least. I would say a dog that's at least 2 years old would fit your need much better.

And definitely not a Dalmatian. They do shed like maniacs, and your temperment and heath requirements don't fit a Dal, either. 

Border Collies are VERY high-drive. You might think you can handle that, but most people can't. 

I would recommend going to a shelter or contacting a rescue agency, and finding an adult dog that you like. Don't make it about the breed; make it about the dog's personality. There are a lot of dogs out there that need homes, so you should be able to find one that fits for your family.

Have you ever actually MET a BC or a Dal? If not, you need to meet some before you decide you can live with one. A dog show or a dog park (or a shelter) would be good places to start.


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## BarclaysMom

Willowy said:


> I would recommend going to a shelter or contacting a rescue agency, and finding an adult dog that you like. Don't make it about the breed; make it about the dog's personality. There are a lot of dogs out there that need homes, so you should be able to find one that fits for your family.


I would recommend a rescue where the dogs are in foster homes. That way the foster parent can help you figure out if their dog fits, because they are already living with it they will know best. Plus rescues really want to place their dogs in forever homes, so they will work with you to make a good match. If it turns out to be a bad match, they will take the dog back, no guilt necessary, and help you find the right one. We had to do that when we had a lab that was nice, but too much for our elderly dog to deal with, plus he chased our cats. So they took him back and found him a better match.


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## pamperedpups

There are A LOT of BCs around here. I groom many of them. They do shed, but dogs who don't shed as much usually need more frequent grooming and haircuts. I actually know quite a few BCs who weren't raised right and who aren't anything you want to be around, just as Dalmations were described here as having the potential for turning out badly if raised incorrectly. I honestly think that goes for any dog. 

Most of the BCs I know have WAY too much energy and smarts for the average pet owner. The best behaved ones who aren't working as intended are very involved in a high energy sport, such as Agility, Flyball or Frisbee. These dogs are almost always super smart, super high energy, very driven, and sensitive. The various Dals I've known have also been high energy, strong and a bit more independant. 

To be honest, I think you'll be better off if you keep researching before venturing into either or any breed. Volunteer with your local shelter or rescues, contact reputable breeders (go to the AKC breed clubs for referrals), go watch some dog shows and dog sport trials, go to training centers, etc. and really prepare yourself for the commitment. There is so much to learn and you'll no doubt find the perfect dog for you along the way.


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## Sebastian_Doggs

Willowy said:


> OK, you do not want a puppy of any breed. Puppies need hours of attention every day, for about 18 months, at least. I would say a dog that's at least 2 years old would fit your need much better.
> 
> And definitely not a Dalmatian. They do shed like maniacs, and your temperment and heath requirements don't fit a Dal, either.
> 
> Border Collies are VERY high-drive. You might think you can handle that, but most people can't.
> 
> I would recommend going to a shelter or contacting a rescue agency, and finding an adult dog that you like. Don't make it about the breed; make it about the dog's personality. There are a lot of dogs out there that need homes, so you should be able to find one that fits for your family.
> 
> Have you ever actually MET a BC or a Dal? If not, you need to meet some before you decide you can live with one. A dog show or a dog park (or a shelter) would be good places to start.


I'm acutally looking to babysit a BC or Dal. My friend has babysitted a BC b4, and says their full of energy and are hyper as heck. But all dogs are different even if they're the same breed.



pamperedpups said:


> There are A LOT of BCs around here. I groom many of them. They do shed, but dogs who don't shed as much usually need more frequent grooming and haircuts. I actually know quite a few BCs who weren't raised right and who aren't anything you want to be around, just as Dalmations were described here as having the potential for turning out badly if raised incorrectly. I honestly think that goes for any dog.
> 
> Most of the BCs I know have WAY too much energy and smarts for the average pet owner. The best behaved ones who aren't working as intended are very involved in a high energy sport, such as Agility, Flyball or Frisbee. These dogs are almost always super smart, super high energy, very driven, and sensitive. The various Dals I've known have also been high energy, strong and a bit more independant.
> 
> To be honest, I think you'll be better off if you keep researching before venturing into either or any breed. Volunteer with your local shelter or rescues, contact reputable breeders (go to the AKC breed clubs for referrals), go watch some dog shows and dog sport trials, go to training centers, etc. and really prepare yourself for the commitment. There is so much to learn and you'll no doubt find the perfect dog for you along the way.


I''ll keep that in mind, thnx for the advice


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## tirluc

also, consider the fact that i have worked w/ a few BC's w/ aggression issues for lack of "a job"....they were bored, were "disiplined" for being destructive and were teetering on the edge of major aggression.....and they are one of the hardest breeds to bring that out of if it gets going....i think i'd rather work w/ an aggressive Pit (no "slam" to the Pits, guys, the just seem like more of a "baby" to me....)


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

tirluc said:


> also, consider the fact that i have worked w/ a few BC's w/ aggression issues for lack of "a job"....they were bored, were "disiplined" for being destructive and were teetering on the edge of major aggression.....and they are one of the hardest breeds to bring that out of if it gets going....i think i'd rather work w/ an aggressive Pit (no "slam" to the Pits, guys, the just seem like more of a "baby" to me....)


you know...I've been wondering about this....a lot of what you post about your Borders reminds me very much of how my pit bulls are. 

I've never been a fan of most of the herding breeds but the more I read your posts the more a Border almost sounds like a fuzzier pit bull in some respects...needs a job, high high energy, agile, strong, can become aggressive and destructive if neglected....hmmm....


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## Laurelin

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you know...I've been wondering about this....a lot of what you post about your Borders reminds me very much of how my pit bulls are.
> 
> I've never been a fan of most of the herding breeds but the more I read your posts the more a Border almost sounds like a fuzzier pit bull in some respects...needs a job, high high energy, agile, strong, can become aggressive and destructive if neglected....hmmm....


The main difference I've found between herder and pits are that pits seem to be more people friendly, and herders are generally more dog friendly (Though some ACDs are very DA). Most herders in general are pretty aloof around strangers. The herders are just the best though to me. They're very discerning and sensitive dogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Laurelin said:


> The main difference I've found between herder and pits are that pits seem to be more people friendly, and herders are generally more dog friendly (Though some ACDs are very DA). Most herders in general are pretty aloof around strangers. The herders are just the best though to me. They're very discerning and sensitive dogs.


Herders think I taste good it seems LOL...most of the bites I have received were herders...so that kinda makes sense..

though technically the Pit Bull is a variant of a sort of herding dog..


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## Laurelin

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Herders think I taste good it seems LOL...most of the bites I have received were herders...so that kinda makes sense..
> 
> though technically the Pit Bull is a variant of a sort of herding dog..


Most of the bites I've received are from herders. They can be kind of nippy, lol. A lot of times, it's just misplaced herding drive or a bored dog, like tirluc said, with no job who becomes a big problem. Really, in a lot of breeds, they shouldn't be overly friendly to strangers, but they shouldn't be aggressive. Shelties in particular are known for being very wary and actually quite judgmental until they know you. Trey's only warmed up to two strangers immediately in his 12 1/2 years. Once the bond's there though, it couldn't be stronger.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Laurelin said:


> Most of the bites I've received are from herders. They can be kind of nippy, lol. A lot of times, it's just misplaced herding drive or a bored dog, like tirluc said, with no job who becomes a big problem. Really, in a lot of breeds, they shouldn't be overly friendly to strangers, but they shouldn't be aggressive. Shelties in particular are known for being very wary and actually quite judgmental until they know you. Trey's only warmed up to two strangers immediately in his 12 1/2 years. Once the bond's there though, it couldn't be stronger.


hmm....Perhaps a BC someday...any breed I own has to have the intelligence and energy to keep up with my bullies...though it would have be a smooth coat..

sorry OP Im done hijacking...


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## Lonewolfblue

Laurelin said:


> The main difference I've found between herder and pits are that pits seem to be more people friendly, and herders are generally more dog friendly (Though some ACDs are very DA). Most herders in general are pretty aloof around strangers. The herders are just the best though to me. They're very discerning and sensitive dogs.


As for people friendly, I know a few people with pits around my block here and they are definitely not real friendly here. And with all the pits I've taken on walks at the Humane Society, there's only been one that I just loved, he was the best mannered pit I had ever seen. The rest were all too restless, nippy, and had something about them that I just didn't trust. And again, it all stems out from how they have been raised. But I would have to say between pits and BC's, my experience is that BC's are more people friendly, lol. That can also be different in other locations as well. Just need to do your homework before selecting any particular dog.

The only dog that's ever bit me was my Betty, lol. An ACD, lol. ACD's are very hard headed. Makes most pits look like teddy bears, lol. I've been in contact with about a dozen or so BC's, and have not seen one with any major issues yet, but yes, they are out there. My trainers BC is the velcro lovebug, loves everyone. In her Rally competitions, she's missed some titles due to breaking away to greet the judges, then going back to complete the course, lol. And the 8 BC's at Betty's herding class were great, they all greeted new strangers that came in to class, then went back to the sheep or ducks, or racing each other around the pond at 100mph, lol. And that's why the need for the research, to weed out the good from the bad. And yes, they definitely need something to do. I'm glad I got my Nell, she's been a real charm.

Also, some say the BC's, ACD's, etc, are not the type of dogs for the first-time dog owner. Well, it also depends on the individual person as well. I was a first-time dog owner, and what was my first dog? lol. Betty, my ACD. And I have learned tons from having her, and when I first got her, there were some that thought I was crazy and making a big mistake. Well, even though I've had a lot if major ups and downs, I'm really glad with the choice I made. And she is too. A lot depends on the individual person. If you are willing to spend time with the dog, work on training, have jobs for them, and the dog is going to be a big part of your life and not just the occasional playmate, then I don't see anything wrong in getting the BC. They are my favorite breed personally, it's what I wanted before getting Betty. But when I saw Betty, I just fell in love with that coat, lol. And since there weren't any BC's available at the shelter here, I got Betty.

Even with having 3 dogs, I still find a little time now and then to take dogs for walks at the Humane Society here. Between now and the time that you do get a dog, volunteer some time, take many dogs out for walks, do a little work with them. Get the feel for some of the different personalities the dogs have. You will find one that fits you and you will fall in love with, and chances are, it may not even be a Dal or a BC. Find the individual dog where the personality fits you.



Laurelin said:


> Shelties in particular are known for being very wary and actually quite judgmental until they know you. Trey's only warmed up to two strangers immediately in his 12 1/2 years. Once the bond's there though, it couldn't be stronger.


Wary and judgemental? hehehe... That's exactly how my trainers Sheltie is. And once the bond is there, it's permanent. My Sheltie (Chloe) is the complete opposite. She's velcro to everyone, not wary of anything. She loves people, other dogs, cats, and especially kids. So the home that she came from was very good to her, and she was properly socialized with everything. She just ended up at the shelter due to the kids keeping the doors open and she kept wandering off, and the parents just got tired of paying to bail her our. So that last time, they said to keep her and adopt her out.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Lonewolfblue said:


> . The rest were all too restless, nippy, and had something about them that I just didn't trust.


not enough exercise and mental stimulation. My girls get six to seven hours a day and are still raring to go...and they have bad structure and health issues...



Lonewolfblue said:


> .
> ACD's are very hard headed. Makes most pits look like teddy bears, lol.


no offence but This made me fall on the floor laughing. The ACDs I have known were to a t big babies compared to the pits I have known....


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## Laurelin

The bcs we get seem to vary.. Some are just plain lovebugs and then we get some that just take time to warm up to you. It's like you have to earn their affection, so it makes you feel somewhat privileged. We've never gotten in ana aggressive bc, just some destructive ones (they were bored). Aussies seem to be a bit more aloof than the bcs, but we still get some of those that are jumping all over and being wiggle bums. And as for ACDs.... well... you know how they can be, lol! Hard headed is the best word for them. We had the neatest ACD/border collie mix the other day. He was such a fun personality. The only problem was he resource guards pretty badly.

Just curious how Chloe is with people? Trey is so shy, but Nikki was everyone's best friend (for a while until she got bored with you).



Lonewolfblue said:


> Wary and judgemental? hehehe... That's exactly how my trainers Sheltie is. And once the bond is there, it's permanent. My Sheltie is the complete opposite. She's velcro to everyone, not wary of anything. She loves people, other dogs, cats, and especially kids. So the home that she came from was very good to her, and she was properly socialized with everything. She just ended up at the shelter due to the kids keeping the doors open and she kept wandering off, and the parents just got tired of paying to bail her our. So that last time, they said to keep her and adopt her out.


Hehe, you answered while I was posting. Yeah, we've had the full range of shelties here. Nikki was the not normal one in that she craved attention from everybody. Trey however will watch you from across the room and wait for you to mess up. He's very judgmental and it takes a long time to get him to relax. He has warmed up to two people right away though, but they were both my good friends and dog people. Rosie wasn't so aloof, but she wouldn't have run up to someone uninvited. Nikki would've especially if it was a man.

Someone with bcs once said with shelties you're guilty until you're proven innocent. I had to laugh at that.


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## Lonewolfblue

Chloe just loves everyone she meets. Is not at all wary of anyone. She would be one that I would be afraid that she would walk off with anyone and get into their car and go off with them, lol.


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## Sebastian_Doggs

Thanks for all the help guys!


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## tirluc

all the BC i have ever come across (w/ the exception of a friends) have been "friendly" but quite reserved w/ strangers....mine will greet everyone in a nice manner but they watch them and keep them at "front leg" distance for further eval.....it usually takes 3-4x of meeting someone b/4 they will actually warm up to them and if they don't, it's generally w/ good reason....as for being w/ other dogs?....i have never met one that was totally dog aggressive (wait, i take that back, a guy in our club has one that is), but they really don't have time to socialize w/ them much either....they have things to do (work, play ball, work, etc) i will say that when you have more than one working (our goosing) they learn quickly, on their own, how to work as a team (or in 3's).....just this past fall Tir, Saoirse and Titch quickly got a system down when working ponds.....Tir would go one direction, Saoirse the other and Titch would usually work both sides back and forth...when the geese would start coming Tir's direction she'd hit the water (she's my water dog) and then Saoirse would keep them off the other side...at this point Titch would generally stay on Tir's side to keep them from coming back that way......it was really cool to watch them bring it together like that....


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## Sebastian_Doggs

tirluc said:


> all the BC i have ever come across (w/ the exception of a friends) have been "friendly" but quite reserved w/ strangers....mine will greet everyone in a nice manner but they watch them and keep them at "front leg" distance for further eval.....it usually takes 3-4x of meeting someone b/4 they will actually warm up to them and if they don't, it's generally w/ good reason....as for being w/ other dogs?....i have never met one that was totally dog aggressive (wait, i take that back, a guy in our club has one that is), but they really don't have time to socialize w/ them much either....they have things to do (work, play ball, work, etc) i will say that when you have more than one working (our goosing) they learn quickly, on their own, how to work as a team (or in 3's).....just this past fall Tir, Saoirse and Titch quickly got a system down when working ponds.....Tir would go one direction, Saoirse the other and Titch would usually work both sides back and forth...when the geese would start coming Tir's direction she'd hit the water (she's my water dog) and then Saoirse would keep them off the other side...at this point Titch would generally stay on Tir's side to keep them from coming back that way......it was really cool to watch them bring it together like that....


I don't think socializing my dog will be a problem as there is a doggy park right behind my house and my whole street if full of dogs like Golden Retrievers, highland white terriors, american eskimos, labradors and such. lol I remember when I used to deliever newspapers on my street, all the dogs would bark when I came near their houses.


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## craven.44

have you had the chance to visit a shelter? Even if you think it might not be the best fit for you, I really encourage you to go have a look around. You may find a wonderful mutt who would be perfect for you. Or you may get to work with a breed you like and get first hand experience to see if that dog is right for you.

Most problems I have seen are either individual dog issues or the result of poor training, socialization, boredom, or something else that is generally the owners fault, not the dog. Good luck!


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## Lonewolfblue

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> Thanks for all the help guys!


Not a problem. Keep us up-to-date on your search/progress......


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## Aston

Pay attention to "tirluc" posts. He knows what he is saying, on the contrary other posts here, show that some users don't know what a BC is. I even foung this pearl here: "_The only sane BC I ever met was owned by a man who used him to work cattle_" this is typical of someone that had never been in contact with BC's.


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## BarclaysMom

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> Thanks for all the help guys!


You're miles ahead of many potential dog owners just because you're really thinking about it and asking questions - good for you! I hope you figure it out and find the perfect dog


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## sheltiemom

I've been lucky with my bc. He came from a rescue and was pulled from a shelter before that...I adopted him as an adult, and for the most part he is calm. It's simply not true that bc's need sheep to herd or acreage to run on in order to be happy. My bc and the ones I know just want to be working and interacting with their people...it's a mistake to think, "Oh, I have a big yard, a high energy dog will be happy running out there..." My dogs, 2 shelties, 1 bc and 1 aussie, need training and structure. Structured activities _and_ a structured day, and they all want to be with me all the time. They would rather be holding down the couch with me than out in the yard alone. OP....since you're mom is the one who is home all day, I would be very sure that she wants a bc too...or whatever breed you decide on. I think an older bc would work ok for you if your whole family is on board.


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## PugChick

Aston said:


> Pay attention to "tirluc" posts. He knows what he is saying, on the contrary other posts here, show that some users don't know what a BC is. I even foung this pearl here: "_The only sane BC I ever met was owned by a man who used him to work cattle_" this is typical of someone that had never been in contact with BC's.


Aston-

ROFL. I have met a LOT of BCs. They were the dog du jour for the cowboy-wanna bes not that long ago. You can't go two houses without there being a BC, aussie or ACD in someone's yard. I have chased down lose BCs attacking riders (*attacking*, not herding), I have been chased by lose BCs while riding, I have been chased by loose BCs at horse shows, I have beat off a DA BC that was attacking my boss's Mini aussie at a show, I have had my chickens killed by BCs, I had one of my minis horses RIPPED OPEN by a BC. I get BCs in at work that are aggressive. I haven't had one bite me - yet. I see BCs in yards performing sterotypic behaviors because they are nuts from the wrong enviroment.

If you like I can take my camera and get a video of the one two streets over that spins. For hours. Just spins. He's pretty fun to watch. Totally off his rocker, but fun to watch. 

The working dog was the ONLY sane one. 

I do not know nor have I ever met anyone who does agility or the like with their dogs. I don't doubt that can keep a BC happy, but for the average dog owner (not dog person) owner who gets a working dog and doesn't have work for it? You're begging for trouble.

Next thing you'll know I'll have claims that I've never met a pug before - I don't paint a total pollyanna sunshine and roses picture for that breed either.


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## Sebastian_Doggs

sheltiemom said:


> I've been lucky with my bc. He came from a rescue and was pulled from a shelter before that...I adopted him as an adult, and for the most part he is calm. It's simply not true that bc's need sheep to herd or acreage to run on in order to be happy. My bc and the ones I know just want to be working and interacting with their people...it's a mistake to think, "Oh, I have a big yard, a high energy dog will be happy running out there..." My dogs, 2 shelties, 1 bc and 1 aussie, need training and structure. Structured activities _and_ a structured day, and they all want to be with me all the time. They would rather be holding down the couch with me than out in the yard alone. OP....since you're mom is the one who is home all day, I would be very sure that she wants a bc too...or whatever breed you decide on. I think an older bc would work ok for you if your whole family is on board.


Lol, my mom was the first one to suggest gettin a BC


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## Lonewolfblue

sheltiemom said:


> I've been lucky with my bc. He came from a rescue and was pulled from a shelter before that...I adopted him as an adult, and for the most part he is calm. It's simply not true that bc's need sheep to herd or acreage to run on in order to be happy. My bc and the ones I know just want to be working and interacting with their people...it's a mistake to think, "Oh, I have a big yard, a high energy dog will be happy running out there..." My dogs, 2 shelties, 1 bc and 1 aussie, need training and structure. Structured activities _and_ a structured day, and they all want to be with me all the time. They would rather be holding down the couch with me than out in the yard alone. OP....since you're mom is the one who is home all day, I would be very sure that she wants a bc too...or whatever breed you decide on. I think an older bc would work ok for you if your whole family is on board.


I completely agree. Even a younger one, say, 1.5-2yrs old. I got my Nell when she was 11 months, and she's been a great dog. Yes, lots of energy and need things to do, but if you are willing, and your mom likes BC's and is willing to help out, then I don't see any problems myself. I just wouldn't get a pup if you don't have the ability to spend tons of time with them, as with other breeds as well. If I had the choice of getting another dog, it would definitely be a BC at about 11-12 months. Not sure I want the time required with a pup.



Sebastian_Doggs said:


> Lol, my mom was the first one to suggest gettin a BC


Good for her, lol.....


----------



## Sebastian_Doggs

Lonewolfblue said:


> I completely agree. Even a younger one, say, 1.5-2yrs old. I got my Nell when she was 11 months, and she's been a great dog. Yes, lots of energy and need things to do, but if you are willing, and your mom likes BC's and is willing to help out, then I don't see any problems myself. I just wouldn't get a pup if you don't have the ability to spend tons of time with them, as with other breeds as well. If I had the choice of getting another dog, it would definitely be a BC at about 11-12 months. Not sure I want the time required with a pup.
> 
> 
> 
> Good for her, lol.....


Thats the main thing right now. Getting my parents to agree to spend time with the dog. If they both agree then for sure I'll get a BC or a Dal. If not then I'll probably decide on another dog


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## Lonewolfblue

PugChick said:


> The working dog was the ONLY sane one.


My Nell doesn't work sheep, cattle, or ducks, and she's perfectly sane. Like mentioned above, a job does not necessarily mean herding. There are many jobs that keep BC's happy. I've been doing a little Rally with Nell, but have switched over to Agility, as she's just got loads of energy and need a good outlet. And she's loving it. Can't wait to actually teach her some sequencing, currently we are just familiarizing with the equipment, and working on Sit/Stays and Down/Stays, as well as working on the left, as well as on the right.


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## PugChick

Lonewolfblue said:


> My Nell doesn't work sheep, cattle, or ducks, and she's perfectly sane. Like mentioned above, a job does not necessarily mean herding.


Of course not. But there does need to be a _job_. Something to mentally and physically engage the dog, and not just for 10mins a day. The dog needs work. 

Most people I know can't be bothered to even walk their dogs everyday. 


That BC trained on cattle was flippin' awesome. If the new property works out ::crosses fingers:: I want a working _something_ - probably one of the BC mixes the cowboys breed, I met one in NM I loved- and I'm going to get some more heritage sheep for it to herd.


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## tirluc

PugChick said:


> Aston-
> 
> ROFL. I have met a LOT of BCs. They were the dog du jour for the cowboy-wanna bes not that long ago. You can't go two houses without there being a BC, aussie or ACD in someone's yard. I have chased down lose BCs attacking riders (*attacking*, not herding), I have been chased by lose BCs while riding, I have been chased by loose BCs at horse shows, I have beat off a DA BC that was attacking my boss's Mini aussie at a show, I have had my chickens killed by BCs, I had one of my minis horses RIPPED OPEN by a BC. I get BCs in at work that are aggressive. I haven't had one bite me - yet. I see BCs in yards performing sterotypic behaviors because they are nuts from the wrong enviroment.
> 
> If you like I can take my camera and get a video of the one two streets over that spins. For hours. Just spins. He's pretty fun to watch. Totally off his rocker, but fun to watch.
> 
> The working dog was the ONLY sane one.
> 
> I do not know nor have I ever met anyone who does agility or the like with their dogs. I don't doubt that can keep a BC happy, but for the average dog owner (not dog person) owner who gets a working dog and doesn't have work for it? You're begging for trouble.
> 
> Next thing you'll know I'll have claims that I've never met a pug before - I don't paint a total pollyanna sunshine and roses picture for that breed either.


and these are the dogs that i have been talking about that i get to work w/ after the owners get tired of dealing w/ their neurotic behaviors....mine, also, don't have sheep/cattle to work 24/7, altho we do do the goosing ruffly about 6 mo out of the yr.....they are laying in the house a good portion of the time, both here and at work, but all-in-all i'd say that the were "idle" about 3-4 hrs a day of wake time....the rest of the time i am doing _something_ w/ them.....and not one of my dogs is insane.....

it takes time and dedication (and ingenuity) to keep them from being a neurotic mess.....and this goes for MANY breeds of dogs.....


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## Laurelin

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> Thats the main thing right now. Getting my parents to agree to spend time with the dog. If they both agree then for sure I'll get a BC or a Dal. If not then I'll probably decide on another dog


If everyone involved knows what a BC requires, then go for it! I would just hesitate bringing that kind of a dog into a setting where people are not familiar with high energy herding breeds. Lol, my roomies get driven crazy enough by my energetic papillon. I still think an adult bc would be a better choice. I hear as pups, they're pretty insane.


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## craven.44

My parents had a border collie when I was a baby. they did not know what they were getting themselves into. My dad own a roofing business, so he was working a lot. My mom was home all day dealing with a 5 year old, 2 year old twins and a baby (me!). They did not have time for poor Beau. He would just run laps around our modest backyard. My parents finally realized that he was not happy, so they gave him to a family friend with a farm and lots of animals for Beau to chase and herd. He was much happier.

That said, if you are realistically willing and able to give the dog something to do and tons of exercise and human interaction, by all means get yourself a nice herding dog (I still do and always will recommend rescue over a breeder). However, be honest with yourself. BCs, and all high energy breeds, require training and exercise. Please do not get in over your head. 

I still say look at the shelter for a mutt since you do not have specific interest in a BC for something like herding or anything. Good luck!


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## Sebastian_Doggs

^ Don't worry, I know what I'm getting my self into

Good news guys, just had a long talk with my mom. I told her about the requirements of these 2 breeds like the exercise needs (at least 2 hours of walking/jogging time a day), the need to learn new things every day, job needs, training, washing, grooming etc. She was pretty cool with it (except for the fact that she had to walk the dog in the winter), and now I feel very confident in getting one of these dogs. All I need now is to talk to my dad who currently isn't here and is on a plane heading to Philly.

Once again, thnx for all the help guys


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## Tankstar

I see you are close by me (Ajax). here is some rescues in the areas.

dont forget petfidner.com. lots of BC mixes and purebreds in there, and Im sure dal mixes and purebreds too.

http://www.bordercollierescueont.com/
http://www.dalrescue.org/contact_us.htm

petfinder.com border collies
http://www.petfinder.com/search/sea...&pet.Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=L1Z+1J2

Dalmatians on petfinder.
http://www.petfinder.com/search/sea...&pet.Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=L1Z+1J2


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## Sebastian_Doggs

Tankstar said:


> I see you are close by me (Ajax). here is some rescues in the areas.
> 
> dont forget petfidner.com. lots of BC mixes and purebreds in there, and Im sure dal mixes and purebreds too.
> 
> http://www.bordercollierescueont.com/
> http://www.dalrescue.org/contact_us.htm
> 
> petfinder.com border collies
> http://www.petfinder.com/search/sea...&pet.Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=L1Z+1J2
> 
> Dalmatians on petfinder.
> http://www.petfinder.com/search/sea...&pet.Age=&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=L1Z+1J2


Thnx for the links!


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## foxthegoldfish

defiantly go to a rescue, they will probably have a BC mix, they can help you find a really good match


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## tirluc

i wish you luck and hope you know what you're getting into....def go thru a rescue and get an older one (i'd recommend at least a yr) rather than a pup....and then get into some sort of sport w/ it....


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## Bearjing

Just one person's experience with a herding breed - 

I have an ACD (mix most likely) from a shelter.

She's definitely a handful - unlike most, she doesn't become destructive (any more, she is 7) when she doesn't get her daily 3 mile run. Instead, she gets depressed - horribly so, enough to make your heart break. She is very sensitive emotionally, although she's a very tough little dog in other respects. 

Common in herding dogs - the endurance -- she'd run 10 miles a day if I could keep up with her. 

Also common in herding dogs - pain tolerance -- We have to watch her carefully because of this. She _will not_ let you know when there is a problem in the same way most dogs will. One random example - She came in from the yard one day with a terrible 4 inch down-to-the-scull Franken-dog gash across the top of her head. The flesh was literally pealed away from her head. I could see bone. She didn't even seem to know it. As we waited at the emergency vet to see the Dr. & put her back together, she was acting _totally _normal, the whole time. 

Imagine what she's like with an infection - she will act only very subtly different than normal, so it's easy to miss the external signs or dismiss them as "a bad day".... then you wait too long with something that really needs to be treated and you have a very sick dog. 

Also, she didn't get over "the puppies" until she was at least 4 or 5. She was basically a blur until then: I sometimes wonder if I really knew what she looked like until she was older - she was literally ALWAYS tearing around the house. Even with a lot of exercising, doggie companionship, and my attempts at "working" her in various ways, she simply NEVER stopped. She would leap onto the dining room table from the next room. She got into *everything* if she was left out and about - pills, fruit, sofa cushions. The notion of a crate probably saved her life. 

The fact is, she has become a great dog - I'm very happy to have her in my life, but those puppy years were hard, exhausting actually - and I can't imagine having had her as a first dog. She really needed a farm and cattle or something to chase all day, and despite my best efforts, in a sense I failed her.

Whatever you decide, I wish you luck. These are not easy breeds you've chosen.


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## dansamy

Have you considered adopting a retired greyhound? From what I understand, they can be real couch potatoes, but they're ready to run when you are.


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## tirluc

Bearjing said:


> Also common in herding dogs - pain tolerance -- We have to watch her carefully because of this. She _will not_ let you know when there is a problem in the same way most dogs will. One random example - She came in from the yard one day with a terrible 4 inch down-to-the-scull Franken-dog gash across the top of her head. The flesh was literally pealed away from her head. I could see bone. She didn't even seem to know it. As we waited at the emergency vet to see the Dr. & put her back together, she was acting _totally _normal, the whole time.
> 
> Imagine what she's like with an infection - she will act only very subtly different than normal, so it's easy to miss the external signs or dismiss them as "a bad day".... then you wait too long with something that really needs to be treated and you have a very sick dog.


boy, ain't that the truth.....my old girl, Lacey, has HD and yoou wouldn't even have known it till she was 4, even tho the xrays showed moderate/severe dysplasia....by 2 she already had arthritis, by 3 the vet estimated about 30% in hips, shoulders and feet....she hurts so bad most the time that i have to lift her into the van, onto the bed or sofa and help her up/down our 3 steps into the house....but, no matter how bad she is hurting, the minute she thinks i'm going somewhere, on the off chance that it may be the DP, she is there and ready to go....and there is no stopping her at the park; if i don't play w/ her she takes it to someone else (and that's not a good thing as they have no idea of the "limitations" i put on her....
her brother was the same way, to the point that after 5 min of light play he couldn't walk on either back leg well.....so, he didn't get to go to the parks anymore....


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## Sebastian_Doggs

tirluc said:


> i wish you luck and hope you know what you're getting into....def go thru a rescue and get an older one (i'd recommend at least a yr) rather than a pup....and then get into some sort of sport w/ it....


Ya. I'll probably train my dog to do agility or frisbee or something. Not for competition purposes tho, just for fun .


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## Lonewolfblue

You could even do the competitions just for fun. It's like my Nell, we are just doing it for fun, and if she really likes it and excels in it, we might do some competitions and get some titles. But I'm not going to push it as for competition only. It's Pet First, then Competing if they have FUN.


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## Sebastian_Doggs

Lonewolfblue said:


> You could even do the competitions just for fun. It's like my Nell, we are just doing it for fun, and if she really likes it and excels in it, we might do some competitions and get some titles. But I'm not going to push it as for competition only. It's Pet First, then Competing if they have FUN.


lol ya I guess your right.


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## BarclaysMom

We do sheep herding just for fun


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## Lonewolfblue

BarclaysMom said:


> We do sheep herding just for fun


Wish I had a place close enough to take Betty, lol. She doesn't do well with other dogs so I can't take her to Obedience or Rally. But she does just fine at the herding classes she went to. I just can't be driving 3 hours each direction every week, lol.


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## Annez

Hope I'm not too late into this discussion. Just to say I've had Dalmatians for over 30 years now so if I can give any advice, please don't hesitate to ask - or email me privately. I've only had my own dogs from puppies so can't advise on rescues although I have helped with some rehoming through the UK breed club. Border Collies and Dalmatians are quite different in their temperaments BTW. Anyway, as I say, if I can help, let me know.l


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## Lonewolfblue

Well, any word on getting the dog yet? I know it's a little late in the thread, but just wondering if you got your dog yet. I've rehomed my cattle dog since my last post, she's now happily herding cattle on a 400+ acre ranch with over 150 head of cattle. It was really hard to let her go, but it was best for her, town life was really stressing her out. I've already posted about this in my thread back when I rehomed her, most will probably remember it.

Since then, I got myself another Border Collie. His name is Sonny, and was 8 months when I got him. I would say if you are wanting a younger dog, but not a pup, then I probably wouldn't go any younger than 8 months, lol. He still needed some housetraining, but I think he's finally got it down, hasn't pee's or pooped in almost a month now in the house. And he holds it just fine all night, and goes when I let him out in the morning. He's also quite the character. He's a little teddy bear, lol. He's also got a wicked little herding nip that I have yet to get under control, lol. When I go to throw a ball, he goes for my hand to try and get the ball and gives a quick, hard nip, sometimes getting my hand, and it hurts, lol. Never breaks the skin, just bruises, lol. Other than that, he doesn't bite at all, lol. He loves people and other dogs and cats. Can't believe of all the dogs I have and have had, all were pretty good with cats, lol. Had no real cat chasers. Betty might have chased if a cat took off, but was fine with them just walking around and never payed attention to them. But knew they were there.


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## Lonewolfblue

JoshDeMott said:


> sry to hear that about your border collie but those dogs are never bored of cattleherding even if they arent trained its def in their bloodlines


Not a Border Collie, Cattle Dog. Betty was my Australian Cattle Dog, and she needed to be on a ranch. She's in Cattle Dog Heaven now and loving it. So currently, I have 1 Sheltie and 2 Border Collies now. And they are all doing great, loving every minute with them.


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## Independent George

Lonewolfblue said:


> I've rehomed my cattle dog since my last post, she's *not* happily herding cattle on a 400+ acre ranch with over 150 head of cattle.


Er, do you mean, "she's *now* happily herding cattle..."?

Incidentally, how the heck did this thread get to five pages?


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## Lonewolfblue

yup, lol......... Now corrected, good catch, lol... 

Not sure how it got to 5 pages, lol......


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## rebecca-g

In my opinion you should only get a Border Collie for one reason:
For herding. That's what they are bred to do, and should be doing.
I don't think you really know what kind of dog you want, BC and Dalmation are two dogs with almost nothing in common so I'm not sure why you want either of them really.
Good luck.


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## Laurelin

rebecca-g said:


> *In my opinion you should only get a Border Collie for one reason:
> For herding. That's what they are bred to do, and should be doing.*
> I don't think you really know what kind of dog you want, BC and Dalmation are two dogs with almost nothing in common so I'm not sure why you want either of them really.
> Good luck.


This is an old thread but I completely disagree with the bold. I know so many border collies that don't herd and are fine, happy, and well adjusted dogs. Some border collies actually aren't good at herding, even if they come from working lines. Sure, certain dogs thrive best as a working dog, but many bcs are perfectly content with an active pet life. You cannot possibly get a border collie and do NOTHING with it, but herding is not something you have to do in order to be a good border collie owner. If you go to the border collie specific boards they are very good about being realistic about what is necessary to be a border collie owner. You will find happy bcs that work stock there and you'll even find happy bcs that live in a city apartment and have never seen sheep.


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## rebecca-g

Laurelin said:


> This is an old thread but I completely disagree with the bold. I know so many border collies that don't herd and are fine, happy, and well adjusted dogs. Some border collies actually aren't good at herding, even if they come from working lines. Sure, certain dogs thrive best as a working dog, but many bcs are perfectly content with an active pet life. You cannot possibly get a border collie and do NOTHING with it, but herding is not something you have to do in order to be a good border collie owner. If you go to the border collie specific boards they are very good about being realistic about what is necessary to be a border collie owner. You will find happy bcs that work stock there and you'll even find happy bcs that live in a city apartment and have never seen sheep.




That is my opinion and I stand for it. I understand if you get a BC that hasn't shown any interest in herding and for that reason has to do something else, maybe obedience training, tracking and so on. But I do not think you should get a Border Collie puppy. 
Where I live, a BC can only be registerd in the Kennel Club IF both parents have done this "herdingtest" not sure what they are called in the US. If they haven't - the puppies can not be called purebred BC. 
I know a couple BC who compete but do not get to herd, sure these dogs seem happy( also, these dogs get to work at least 5 times a week). But I also know a couple of BCs who get to herd too, and oh what a difference...
It's almost impossible to get a purebred BC where I'm from, because the breeders only sell their puppies to people who are going to let them work stock.
I am truly thankful for that.

Also, if you get a BC you can never be completely sure of what you're getting yourself into , yeah you might get a dog who doesn't want to herd, or you can get a dog whos herding instincts take over - this dog will start herding cars, bikes, humans - well everything that moves and in the end you'll most likely have to get rid of the dog. Even if the parents have small herding instincts you can never be sure of what the puppy will be like, and I've seen this happen more than one time.

I just dont understand why we have to "ruin" the Border Collie? The BC is a breed that actually get to do what they are bred to do, and they haven't even got a breed standard JUST so that people will get that it's not what they look like that matters - what matters is their ability to work stock. Why get a BC when there is more that 300 breeds out there thats probably more appropriate for you? 

Well, this is my opinion.


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## Laurelin

> I just dont understand why we have to "ruin" the Border Collie? The BC is a breed that actually get to do what they are bred to do, and they haven't even got a breed standard JUST so that people will get that it's not what they look like that matters - what matters is their ability to work stock. Why get a BC when there is more that 300 breeds out there thats probably more appropriate for you?


Why not? I can provide the outlet for it and there are a million bcs in rescue. It's not ruining them to have some as pets so long as they aren't bred. I agree, why breed a bc that can't herd at all, but having individuals as pets is not a problem.


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## ipreferpi

Have you thought at all about a standard poodle? They're medium sized dogs who don't really shed too much. Also, I may be biased, but every standard poodle I've had the pleasure of meeting has been as quick as a whip. I knew one who was a therapy dog, and while she was high energy at the park, and loved walking with her owner, she was able to be calm around the patients, and could do a ton of amazing tricks to make them smile. Certainly a lot of work goes into a dog like that, but she didn't seem to have that insatiable need for a job that border collies display (one of their most fantastic traits in my opinion, but not for the casual or first time owner). Most standards I've met have also been fairly even tempered, and not likely to snap or growl (this is not so true of the tea cup and mini variety in my experience...) And with their coat they should be able to deal with a colder climate, but you can shave it down in the summer if need be. There are also a lot of poodle mixes in shelters out there, so maybe give that a thought?



















Good luck to you! I hope you find the perfect dog for you and your family!


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## TxRider

Sebastian_Doggs said:


> The biggest reason is because I want a companion, friend, someone that will be by my side no matter what. Also because I've always wanted a dog and love animals.


Border collies are awesome for a young person for a companion, that will stick with you no matter what, and be your best buddy for all it's life.

But only if..

You plan to work the dog out every day. Not a walk, but work. Not fetching the paper, but work.

Like an hour a day of fetching a ball or frisbee, every day, for 15 years.

That means if you are 18, playing frisbee or fetch an hour a day, every day, until you are 32 years old. Above friends, above girlfriends, above partying, etc.

And only if..

You are going to commit to learning to train and communicate with your dog, meaning training every day, for several years. Reading and studying training, taking a class or two, working hard.

If your up for that, go for it. You won't be sorry.

If your not up for it, both you and the dog will suffer.


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## Lizmo

briteday said:


> Neither. Both breeds are high maintenance. If you do not live on a farm or ranch there will not be enough work for the dog to work off their endless energy and you will end up with a miserable dog and a miserable mom.


I agree with you to a point. A Border Collie IS high maintenace and you have to WANT to have a Border Collie, IMO, to enjoy one. They are work. They will test your knowledge. 

But, you most certainly don't need to live on a farm to have a Border Collie - that's a really, really old misconception.


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## mikedavid00

rebecca-g said:


> In my opinion you should only get a Border Collie for one reason:
> For herding. That's what they are bred to do, and should be doing.


Ouch. 

See I'm not the only one that has these sorts of opinions. I think that the Border Collie can be made happy if owned by an enthusiast.



TxRider said:


> Border collies are awesome for a young person for a companion, that will stick with you no matter what, and be your best buddy for all it's life.
> 
> But only if..
> 
> You plan to work the dog out every day. Not a walk, but work. Not fetching the paper, but work.
> 
> Like an hour a day of fetching a ball or frisbee, every day, for 15 years.
> 
> That means if you are 18, playing frisbee or fetch an hour a day, every day, until you are 32 years old. Above friends, above girlfriends, above partying, etc.
> 
> And only if..
> 
> You are going to commit to learning to train and communicate with your dog, meaning training every day, for several years. Reading and studying training, taking a class or two, working hard.
> 
> If your up for that, go for it. You won't be sorry.
> 
> If your not up for it, both you and the dog will suffer.


Wow EXCELLENT answer.

I said before.. i'm telling you.. most people see a dog they take a 'liking to' because of the way it looks and read the summaries (which are all good of course), but don't understand the requirements and especially what will happen if they do NOT excersize and train the dog. It's almost not optional.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with him wanting a dog and he could be a very good dog owner. He just needs the straight goods on the different breeds and to learn a little bit about how problems will arise with temperment etc.


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## TxRider

mikedavid00 said:


> Ouch.
> 
> See I'm not the only one that has these sorts of opinions. I think that the Border Collie can be made happy if owned by an enthusiast.


Bahh, I owned a BC/lab mix at 18, working 12 hour shifts, no problem.

Doesn't need an enthusiast, they are the easiest dogs to train in the world, and learn incredibly fast. Awesome for first time owners in that regard.

You just need to have time to work them out daily. Not for middle aged shut ins who never get outside but for someone with an active lifestyle who puts their dogs priority above the front doormat or a pair of new shoes.


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## mikedavid00

Lizmo said:


> I agree with you to a point. A Border Collie IS high maintenace and you have to WANT to have a Border Collie, IMO, to enjoy one. They are work. They will test your knowledge.
> 
> But, you most certainly don't need to live on a farm to have a Border Collie - that's a really, really old misconception.


And this is the sort of answer that will lead someone straight down the wrong path.


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## Herrick's Mommy

Mike, you keep talking about exercise and training and walking dogs and whatnot, and I understand that your puppy has not had his shots yet, but what else are you doing with your puppy other than teaching it to shake hands? Are you playing with him at least in your house? are you walking him at least in your yard? Are you EXERCISING him at all? He may be a puppy, but what I've known is that you have to start while they are young and all you keep yapping about is exercise and instead, I see you make your videos, which makes me think that you only have your puppy for show, as in, allowing you to say you have a dog and that's all.


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## TxRider

rebecca-g said:


> That is my opinion and I stand for it. I understand if you get a BC that hasn't shown any interest in herding and for that reason has to do something else, maybe obedience training, tracking and so on. But I do not think you should get a Border Collie puppy.
> Where I live, a BC can only be registerd in the Kennel Club IF both parents have done this "herdingtest" not sure what they are called in the US. If they haven't - the puppies can not be called purebred BC.
> I know a couple BC who compete but do not get to herd, sure these dogs seem happy( also, these dogs get to work at least 5 times a week). But I also know a couple of BCs who get to herd too, and oh what a difference...
> It's almost impossible to get a purebred BC where I'm from, because the breeders only sell their puppies to people who are going to let them work stock.
> I am truly thankful for that.
> 
> Also, if you get a BC you can never be completely sure of what you're getting yourself into , yeah you might get a dog who doesn't want to herd, or you can get a dog whos herding instincts take over - this dog will start herding cars, bikes, humans - well everything that moves and in the end you'll most likely have to get rid of the dog. Even if the parents have small herding instincts you can never be sure of what the puppy will be like, and I've seen this happen more than one time.
> 
> I just dont understand why we have to "ruin" the Border Collie? The BC is a breed that actually get to do what they are bred to do, and they haven't even got a breed standard JUST so that people will get that it's not what they look like that matters - what matters is their ability to work stock. Why get a BC when there is more that 300 breeds out there thats probably more appropriate for you?
> 
> Well, this is my opinion.


Why get a poodle or Lab when it's purpose is to retrieve waterfowl?

Why get a terrier or dachsund when it's purpose is to kill small game?

Why get a German shepherd or Bouvier des Flandres or Corgi when it's purpose is to work stock?

Any dog can chase kids on bikes and cars, ask any kid who rides a bike around town...

Sure they are stock dogs, but almost all breeds had some working purpose we will not be using them for.

Being a stock dog is what makes them so smart and awesome at so many other tasks they are quite happy to do. Working stock is just an expression of prey drive, which can be expressed just as easily in many other outlets.


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## Independent George

This thread started 11 months ago; if the OP's still around, I'd wager he's already made his choice.


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