# Puppies fighting



## joey1012 (Jul 23, 2010)

Hi everyone

My two boys and i have two 13 week old border collie pups one male one female. We have had them since they were 7 weeks old. They have been having the usually scuffles that I expected but in the last week they have started to have serious fights, over nothing, not food related, to the point where they are both up on their hind legs jaws locked and neither of them are letting go, growling, snarling and yelping, i have had to break up all the fights and today they started to make each other bleed. I just dont know what to do, should i be breaking up the fights or let them go to establish the 'top dog' im just not sure what will happen if i dont break it up. Im lost not sure what to do next?


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## Robrowe (Jan 25, 2010)

A little roughhousing is expect but it sounds like they are getting a bit carried away. Time for pre-emptive strike on your part. First you need to find out who the agressor is. There are many signs from one just meandering about then the other comes to them with a dead stare and rigid body or it may be more subtle than that with it starting out as play and then one of them goes over the top of the other. There are two ways I know of to deal with this. The positive reenforcement method is to have treats ready and as soon as the agressor goes to lunge redirect him/her to something else like a favorite toy and reward when they leave the other dog and go for the toy. The other method is a correction method. You will need a leash on the agressor with a training collar high on the neck. When the agressor goes in for the lunge try a loud aaaaahhhhhhhh and if that doesnt work a quick snap on the lead with a loud aaaaahhhhhhhh, you know that universally know disgusting sound we make at our kids when they get into something they are not supposed to.


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## joey1012 (Jul 23, 2010)

Thank you heaps for you advice, there havent been any fights today thank goodness the female is usually the instigator of it all, and she looked like she was going to have a go at the male today but i just clapped my hands loudly and said no and diverted her attention and she didnt try again so i was very pleased only play fighting today much nicer, i will definately give you techniques a go!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

This one concerns me because of the simple fact that they are fighting to the point of locking jaws and bleeding. THAT is far beyond normal puppy "play", and not what I would expect from two 13 wk puppies.

My opinion is that yes, you should be breaking them up, since YOU are the "top dog", or at least you should be. I would recommend that you completely remove your own emotion from the situation, quietly and calmly seperate them, and simply give them BOTH a little time to settle down (perhaps in seperate crates).

The problem I have with identifying the aggressor, is that most people don't have the skills to correctly determine which dog that TRULY is. For most people, it's a 50 - 50 crap shoot at best. .... AND, if you happen to INcorrectly identify or single out the wrong one, then you're opening a really big can of worms. I would consider them both equal participants, engaging in an activity that neither one should be, and treat it as such.

I certainly wouldn't advise that you use any corrections, ... for starters because they are two 13 week puppies who don't know any different. You can't correct a dog under these circumstances; the ramifications and potential damage done by correcting will likely be greater than you may expect.

Sounds as if these two puppies were taken away from their mother too early. They may not have recieved the early socialization and life-lessons from her that they required.

I hope you have employment lined up for them when they reach adolescense, and beyond.

Good luck.


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## Robrowe (Jan 25, 2010)

Separation will not correct this behavoir, in my experience that only makes it worse and asking for an explosion when they get to one another. In a natural environement with the mother such behavoir is curbed by correction. It starts with a growl from mommy then a snarl then a grab at the scruff of the neck. You will never see the mother separating them or giving them treats, this is a human thing. The age is actually very appropriate for teaching, the earlier they learn its un acceptable behavoir the better. They arent born knowing and different and must be taught. Some dogs will never display this behavoir and others will. I am very much an advocate of positive reinforcement but have yet to see it work with dominance issues.

As for being able to spot the dominant animal simple observation is all it takes, If you dont know the signs you shouldnt own a dog.
Here is a great link with lots of information and other links for continued reading on this subject.
http://www.wagntrain.com/BodyLanguage.htm

Now with that being said you have presented yourself with quite the challange on getting 2 littermates to raise together. They will get very competitive and if left together they will also become very dependant on one another growing the puppy to puppy bond instead of a human bond. They will require separate times for feeding, affection, training etc and also together time for the same. There are several threads here addressing this Dilemma if you do a search.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Robrowe said:


> I am very much an advocate of positive reinforcement but *have yet to see it work* with dominance issues.


.... and yet, THIS is what you advocate in your first response .. ?? 



> There are two ways I know of to deal with this. The positive reenforcement method is to have treats ready and as soon as the agressor goes to lunge redirect him/her to something else like a favorite toy and reward when they leave the other dog and go for the toy.


 I'm confused. If you "have yet to see it work", then why suggest it ? (BTW, your method of redirection seems dangerous IMO)

Anyway, I REALLY like these two quotes, which were in the link that you posted .. 



> "Forcing the dog onto its back is the equivalent of an abusive parent beating a child to force it to say, 'I love you.' Although he or she may have forced the words out of the child's mouth, they cannot force the statement to be true.... Forcing a dog into a submissive position is the Doggish equivalent of this scenario. Even worse, this technique may actually anger the dog enough to provoke it to attack. ... Forcing a dog into an alpha roll, or shaking the dog, both constitute physical aggression. Physical aggression is not communication. If there is good communication, then such confrontations need not occur."
> - Stanley Coren, "How to Speak Dog"


and this one too .. 



> If your dog is getting overwhelmed or is overwhelming someone else, invite them to take a short break. No punishment is necessary: it's just a breather, not a penalty.





And I'm not sure I understand this statement ... 



> If you dont know the signs you shouldnt own a dog.


as it relates to the OP's statement ..



> ... in the last week they have started to have serious fights, *over nothing*, not food related, ...


Are you suggesting that the OP shouldn't own a dog ?? Again, ... Im confused



Also, I'm not a big fan of the tiresome "that's the way the mother treats them" school of thought. 

Robrowe, I can see that your line of thinking and mine are quite different.

But, .. "whatever works for you", .... I guess.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Since the puppies broke it up with a loud hand clap, I would assume it isn't as real as it looks. I've seen puppies play pretty rough and get carried away, like 10 year old kids on a playground. Play turns to rough play, which leads to emotions running high and kids getting into spats. 
Correction would work, or temporarily suppress the behavior. The problem I have with corrections as a first method of choice is that whoever administers the correction has to maintain a line of being gentle enough as to not freak out 2 13 week old puppies, and make the correction big and dramatic enough to make them re-think fighting ever again. I don't know too many people IRL who would have the stomach to correct an adult dog enough to make it "work", let alone a couple of puppies. Have your sons done any individual work with these pups in puppy classes? If they're old enough to be responsible for puppies, they're certainly old enough to take them to puppy class.

"Forcing the dog onto its back is the equivalent of an abusive parent beating a child to force it to say, 'I love you.' Although he or she may have forced the words out of the child's mouth, they cannot force the statement to be true.... Forcing a dog into a submissive position is the Doggish equivalent of this scenario.

I just saw a youtube video of someones house full of dogs. Some were lying quietly, some were playing, some were chewing, some were wrestling. A young dog was full of it, and accidently bumped into one of the dogs who was laying calmly, minding his own business. The older dog stood up, growled, and the young dog looked like it had been shot dead...he immediately went onto his back with all 4 paws in the air. The older did didn't do ANYTHING to force him on his back, the young dog volunteered it in a white flag. It was an interesting video, especially the puppy who was happily chewing a bone and got smuushed under two other dogs wrestling and didn't even raise his head. Just kept on chewin'


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## joey1012 (Jul 23, 2010)

Well we have had a fight free weekend, only the puppy play fighting that doesnt concern me. The female went to have a go at the male saturday morning but i just clapped my hand loudly and said no and she put her head down and walked away, im guessing this is a good thing. I now feed them separately if either of them go near each others food there is normally a bit of a growl and the offending puppy walks away. Another technique that someone advised me to do was to always have something to eat invfront of the pups before feeding them so they understand i'm the 'top dog'.

They puppies never had full on fights until we went away for 10 days and they stayed with a friend who has adult border collies the oldest male is the most dominate one out of the two of them and he would growl at the puppies if they got in his way, so im not sure if they have picked it up from him or its just a coincidence that they are doing this since coming home.

The pups have never been hit, after breaking up a fight i only give them time apart, is this the right thing to do??

My boys are 12 & 8 and have their own time with each pup and train either own pups separately. We have booked them into puppy preschool, that is due to start next month, this was the soonest i could get them into anything, since we have had a huge outbreak of the parvo virus in my area, so all preschool training sessions were cancelled.

This is our first time owning pets so im open to any advice, i want this to be a positive experience for my boys 

Thanks Robrowe for the body lauguage like i think that will be useful for me!!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

joey1012 said:


> Well we have had a fight free weekend, only the puppy play fighting that doesnt concern me. The female went to have a go at the male saturday morning but i just clapped my hand loudly and said no and she put her head down and walked away, im guessing this is a good thing. I now feed them separately if either of them go near each others food there is normally a bit of a growl and the offending puppy walks away. Another technique that someone advised me to do was to always have something to eat invfront of the pups before feeding them so they understand i'm the 'top dog'.
> 
> They puppies never had full on fights until we went away for 10 days and they stayed with a friend who has adult border collies the oldest male is the most dominate one out of the two of them and he would growl at the puppies if they got in his way, so im not sure if they have picked it up from him or its just a coincidence that they are doing this since coming home.
> 
> ...


Eating in front of them might not help much, but it certainly won't hurt. Another thing is to teach them something simple like sit, and if they want something they sit first. If they sit, they get what they want. If they don't sit, they don't get what they want. Good luck in puppy class next month! Those classes are a lot of fun


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## joey1012 (Jul 23, 2010)

They have both learn to sit and the male will stay until he is called but the the female will just walk away after sitting so we are working on her! My boys are very excited to go to the classes.

They have both had their second immunisation and are due for another one in a month, because of the parvo virus outbreak, which is now starting to die down, we havent taken them out of the backyard, im not sure when it will be safe to take the pups for a walk?


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