# Terrible looking pitbull!?



## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

Ok so I am no expert on pitbulls but from what I have gathered off of this site this is not what they are supposed to look like. 










Is this wrong? Try and guess how much the "breeders" are asking for the pups....


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Active Dog said:


> Ok so I am no expert on pitbulls but from what I have gathered off of this site this is not what they are supposed to look like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


very wrong. very very wrong. and probably a grand or two.








<---real pit bull.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

These are pics of the dad and puppies, it is terrible!! Look at how the puppies legs are spaced! They look deformed! I was pretty sure this was all wrong!

Edit: Here is the description along with the ebay post.


> Bully pitbull puppies, UKC Purple Ribbon registered. Show quality pups, parents are pointed in ABBA and ABKC rings. 2 males, 3 females left. Black brindles, fawns, blue tri. 100% Razors Edge, 4x Short Shot, 2x Uno, Cairo, Manu blood. Located in San Luis Obispo, CA. Pictures and pedigree are on www.sinfulpits.com
> 
> Read more: http://sandiego.ebayclassifieds.com...ies/?ad=4618321&msg=OUT_OF_AREA#ixzz0u0YqZkK6


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

yes ive seen quite a bit of that.

this is why its IMPORTANT that people maintain the real pit bull. that's why its important to breed proper pit bulls if the breed is going to survive as it should be.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

They are not good looking anythings......poor guys ..........they look like very exaggerated American Bullies


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## TheBearCat (Jun 5, 2010)

That first picture frightens me on so many levels.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

They look like what one petstore in my area is calling a Pocket Pitt. UGH!!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That dog looks like a gargoyle. Disgusting what people have done to these bully dogs.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I've seen much better looking Am. Bullies......can't stand these pocket, xxl, lowrider ,hodgepodge things


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

The ad says Bully Pitbull puppies..are they a mix between a bulldog and a pit? They are built like bulldogs.
Of course the puppies are cute...all puppies are cute, but there is SO much wrong with that head and body.

Zim, that pic of the pitbull you put up is wowow. He is WAY cut...not an ounce of fat on that boy. Not sure I like that, but he's an amazing looking dog.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Cracker said:


> Zim, that pic of the pitbull you put up is wowow. He is WAY cut...not an ounce of fat on that boy. Not sure I like that, but he's an amazing looking dog.



Its because he's an ADBA show dog.



the ADBA Standard said:


> Presentation of an adult dog should be of a lean, exercised animal showing a hint of rib and backbone (without hipbones showing) with muscles firm and defined. Clean, glossy coat with short trimmed nails. Presentation of dogs in the puppy classes should be of a well nourished puppy, showing no ribs, backbone or hips. Coat should be glossy with short, trimed nails.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Cracker said:


> The ad says Bully Pitbull puppies..are they a mix between a bulldog and a pit? They are built like bulldogs.
> Of course the puppies are cute...all puppies are cute, but there is SO much wrong with that head and body.
> 
> Zim, that pic of the pitbull you put up is wowow. He is WAY cut...not an ounce of fat on that boy. Not sure I like that, but he's an amazing looking dog.


That is what an APBT should look like.....a super athlete ....no a hevey weight body builder or a 300lb linebacker


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

pugmom said:


> That is what an APBT should look like.....a super athlete ....no a hevey weight body builder or a 300lb linebacker


yes. this.^

i personally prefer the ADBA presentation. I MUCH prefer a well exercised, lean animal to a dog kept chunky fat to make it look bigger.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Actually, That is what the Pit Bull Community would call an American Bully.

American Bullies are a new breed of dog that made off of the American Pit Bull Terrier and the Am Staff. If health tested and done correctly they can be very nice looking dogs. Personally from what I've seen they are more of a status symbol for people and are bred to look more like English Bulldogs then Bullies. http://theabkcdogs.org/ 

This is what they should look like:
















Real APBT:
ADBA/UKC Champion (I love this dog)


UKC Champion APBT 


Personally Pit Bulls should look like the ADBA dog that Zim posted and the first APBT I posted. They should be lean and in good shape (Little to no fat to be seen). The UKC dogs are looking more and more like Am Staffs then APBTs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Darkmoon said:


> Actually, That is what the Pit Bull Community would call an American Bully.


i looked at it as a pit bull because its being advertised as a pit bull...which annoys me. So if they're gonna call it a pit..I'm gonna judge it like a pit...in hopes that people get it when they keep calling their dogs pit bulls and they get bashed for having some of the most horribly built pits ever.



> Personally Pit Bulls should look like the ADBA dog that Zim posted and the first APBT I posted. They should be lean and in good shape (Little to no fat to be seen). The UKC dogs are looking more and more like Am Staffs then APBTs.


Yeah and just as a further note to what DM said..

The dog I posted is straining heavily at the leash and in a very excited mindset. He's naturally going to look a lot more cut then when he's just chillin.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Those would be those horrid hippo pups, and yes likely upwards of $2500 a pup.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The sad part is, I've seen this person at PetSmart in Tierrasanta trying to sell his pups in the front of the store and recognize both mom and dad.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I understand that these dogs are a mockery of proper, well bred APBTs, but it strikes me as odd that people are declaring that they're disgusting creatures in general, while other extremely exaggerated breeds of dogs are perfectly acceptable... These dogs look no more "deformed" than champion AKC English Bulldogs.


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## GSD (Jul 18, 2010)

American Bullies are a scam. They have mixed in other breeds and are still registering them as pit bulls so they can sell them with papers. They are lazy, nasty, mutts that will have a short life span due to the way they are built and not being able to breath.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> The sad part is, I've seen this person at PetSmart in Tierrasanta trying to sell his pups in the front of the store and recognize both mom and dad.


Wow unbelieveable... and PetSmart here in Pa wanted to kick me out for taking clients there to socialize their dogs... Thinks they got their ethics screwed up.



Nargle said:


> I understand that these dogs are a mockery of proper, well bred APBTs, but it strikes me as odd that people are declaring that they're disgusting creatures in general, while other extremely exaggerated breeds of dogs are perfectly acceptable... These dogs look no more "deformed" than champion AKC English Bulldogs.


I will say that any exaggerated english bulldog (or any breed for that matter) is just as much of an abomination as those hippo pups.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I understand that these dogs are a mockery of proper, well bred APBTs, but it strikes me as odd that people are declaring that they're disgusting creatures in general, while other extremely exaggerated breeds of dogs are perfectly acceptable... These dogs look no more "deformed" than champion AKC English Bulldogs.


How are you so sure that all of us DO find other exaggerations perfectly acceptable? I used the word "disgusting," but that doesn't mean that Bullies like this are the only dogs I'm disgusted by..


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> How are you so sure that all of us DO find other exaggerations perfectly acceptable? I used the word "disgusting," but that doesn't mean that Bullies like this are the only dogs I'm disgusted by..


ditto......


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

> I will say that any exaggerated english bulldog (or any breed for that matter) is just as much of an abomination as those hippo pups.





MissMutt said:


> How are you so sure that all of us DO find other exaggerations perfectly acceptable? I used the word "disgusting," but that doesn't mean that Bullies like this are the only dogs I'm disgusted by..


I completely agree with you, and I'm not saying that _everyone_ finds other exaggerated breeds acceptable. But there is a bit of a double standard present in the world, don't you think? I've lost track of all of the "nasty deformed hippo pit bull" threads that keep popping up. I think that too many people are too comforted by the idea of dog shows and kennel club registrations that they're blind about what they're actually creating. Not specifically referring to anybody on dogforums, just to clarify.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Ok, but look at this wittle angel ..... <3


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I too am sickened by breeders who purposefully breed dogs that are deformed or so far away from the breed standard simply to have bigger, shorter, stronger, taller, whatever dogs. I hate extremes when it comes to dogs. That said, if someone dropped that dog on my porch, I would love him just like any other dog. I simply would never seek out a dog like that. I don't think the individual dog is disgusting, only how it appears because of greedy "breeders" breed for shock value, money etc... rather then producing a nice healthy dog.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Inga said:


> I too am sickened by breeders who purposefully breed dogs that are deformed or so far away from the breed standard simply to have bigger, shorter, stronger, taller, whatever dogs. I hate extremes when it comes to dogs. That said, if someone dropped that dog on my porch, I would love him just like any other dog. I simply would never seek out a dog like that. I don't think the individual dog is disgusting, only how it appears because of greedy "breeders" breed for shock value, money etc... rather then producing a nice healthy dog.


The term "king" makes me crawl just as much as "teacup" 

I honestly don't get the point of these mutant looking dogs. Is it a tough thing? I thought anyone with a true love for the APBT breed was trying to get AWAY from that imagery.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The term "king" makes me crawl just as much as "teacup"
> 
> I honestly don't get the point of these mutant looking dogs. Is it a tough thing? I thought anyone with a true love for the APBT breed was trying to get AWAY from that imagery.


Yeah and it makes ME crawl even more watching the person puff up their chests as they say it. I usually just shrug and assume it is a case of "over compensating" for something else.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

The pups are going for $1,200. The thing that I don't understand is that it is a female breeder. This might seem sexist but I find men to be the irresponsible bully breeder. Sorry if I offend anyone this is just something that seems like an ego trip.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Yikes! I feel sorry for the dogs.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

This is a bit of a side note, but mom has one of the ugliest heads I have ever seen. Something about her face just looks off, maybe that's just the picture though.


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## KelliCZ (Aug 1, 2008)

Inga said:


> I too am sickened by breeders who purposefully breed dogs that are deformed or so far away from the breed standard simply to have bigger, shorter, stronger, taller, whatever dogs. I hate extremes when it comes to dogs. That said, if someone dropped that dog on my porch, I would love him just like any other dog. I simply would never seek out a dog like that. I don't think the individual dog is disgusting, only how it appears because of greedy "breeders" breed for shock value, money etc... rather then producing a nice healthy dog.


I whole heartedly agree! I have a rescued albino dobe and am fostering an albino chihuahua both purposely bred to be *rare*


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

I can't imagine why anyone would breed any kind of pit bull for any reason. No type of dog in American history has suffered more and been abused more then pit bulls. No type of dog is dieing in kill shelters in greater numbers then pit bulls. 

However, if you're going to breed pits, then I am all for breeding exotic variants that are unsuitable for fighting, cost to much for the average thug gangsta wannabe, and are unusual enough to get quickly adopted when they end up in a shelter. The world certainly doesn't need any more "real" pit bulls bred intentionally. A thousand "real" pit puppies will die tonight.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would breed any kind of pit bull for any reason. No type of dog in American history has suffered more and been abused more then pit bulls. No type of dog is dieing in kill shelters in greater numbers then pit bulls.
> 
> However, if you're going to breed pits, then I am all for breeding exotic variants that are unsuitable for fighting, cost to much for the average thug gangsta wannabe, and are unusual enough to get quickly adopted when they end up in a shelter. The world certainly doesn't need any more "real" pit bulls bred intentionally. A thousand "real" pit puppies will die tonight.


.......

oy vey

i can only smile when i read your posts anymore ... because its just not worth it


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Miranda16 said:


> .......
> 
> oy vey
> 
> i can only smile when i read your posts anymore ... because its just not worth it


What specifically did I say that you disagree with and why?


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would breed any kind of pit bull for any reason. No type of dog in American history has suffered more and been abused more then pit bulls. No type of dog is dieing in kill shelters in greater numbers then pit bulls.
> 
> However, if you're going to breed pits, then I am all for breeding exotic variants that are unsuitable for fighting, cost to much for the average thug gangsta wannabe, and are unusual enough to get quickly adopted when they end up in a shelter. The world certainly doesn't need any more "real" pit bulls bred intentionally. A thousand "real" pit puppies will die tonight.


I very much disagree with you. I wish more people would breed toward the original APBT. The stable temperament, loving, driven dogs of the past. Just like in other breeds you have good breeders and bad breeders. Sadly this breed happens to have a TON of bad breeders. I would like to say though that my next dog is going to be from a breeder and yes it's going to be an APBT. Why? Because I'm going to be doing weight pulling, agility, lure coursing, and other high energy, heavy working things and so far with rescues their health issues just do not cut it. 

Why is it wrong for me to love the breed and want a good example of the breed that has the paperwork behind it?

People who are breeding "exotics" are doing more damage to the breed then those who are breeding the correct APBT. People who breed these dogs normally aren't breeding for the fine temperament or health of the dogs. These are the dogs that are biting and attacking, not the "fighting" dogs you seem to not like. Breeding toward the old time fighting Pits would actually correct a lot of the issues we see arising in these new "Pit Bulls". It's a shame that Am Bullies are being passed off as APBTs just because they came from them. Yet AST are still being passed off as APBT when they really are their own breed anymore.

If you wouldn't say it about other breeds of dogs, don't say it about the APBT. Yes we have more of an issue because it's "cool" to own one now, but there is no reason why responsible breeders should be breeding. In fact they are the only ones that should be breeding peiord but that won't happen.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would breed any kind of pit bull for any reason. No type of dog in American history has suffered more and been abused more then pit bulls. No type of dog is dieing in kill shelters in greater numbers then pit bulls.
> 
> However, if you're going to breed pits, then I am all for breeding exotic variants that are unsuitable for fighting, cost to much for the average thug gangsta wannabe, and are unusual enough to get quickly adopted when they end up in a shelter. The world certainly doesn't need any more "real" pit bulls bred intentionally. A thousand "real" pit puppies will die tonight.


1, You're basically saying that a breed that many people love should go extinct. I see you have a Golden Retriever in your avatar, one of the most common breeds in the world. What if someone told you that people should stop breeding Goldens so they could just go ahead and die out because there are plenty in the world already? I bet you anything that animal abuse is not exclusive to pit bulls, btw.
2, You're suggesting that responsible breeders somehow have something to do with dogs dying in shelters. In fact, if there were be more responsible pit bull breeders, there would be less pit bulls that would end up in shelters to die, because they'd be screening homes, making sure their puppies' potential owners are 100% dedicated, and would be taking puppies back if their owners cannot keep them for any reason to prevent them from ending up in shelters.
3, You're suggesting that only BYBs that breed for exotic, deformed dogs as a selling point to make money (Pretty much designer dogs) should be allowed to breed while responsible breeders that are concerned about creating a healthy, structurally sound dog should not be allowed to breed because their dogs could potentially be used for fighting. BTW, any able bodied dog can potentially be used for fighting, there's nothing particularly special about pit bulls. They're not some cyborg creature that was specifically engineered to be a killing machine. By your logic, we should make leg amputation mandatory and equip every new puppy with a wheelchair, so that there's NO POSSIBLE way for the dogs to fight.
4, You just flippin' said it's okay to breed dogs that are _so deformed_ that they can't physically be used to fight...!!! I'm totally against fighting and all, but consider how being so deformed would affect the REST of the dog's life! If you want to prevent dog fighting, support breeders that make sure their puppies go to good homes that would never fight their dogs.
5, You're suggesting that a high price tag will somehow deter irresponsible owners. But apparently using the fact that the dog is "exotic" and "rare" as a selling point to get it sold quicker is what you do when you want to make sure the dog goes to a responsible owner. Keep dreaming. 

... And that is what is wrong with your post.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Seriously, I don't think any price would deter a thug who wants to fight his dogs. There's a lot of drug money floating around in thug circles. They likely consider a high price tag as a status symbol and deliberately pay more just for bragging rights.

I do agree that there are FAR too many people breeding pit bulls, and far too many of them are VERY irresponsible. But I'd hate to see the breed go extinct. I feel sorry for the responsible pit bull people---it's got to be hard balancing the overpopulation of badly bred pit bulls with the need to maintain the production of well-bred pit bulls. Though I think this issue plagues quite a few breeds. Labs, for sure.

I don't think it's ever right to breed purposely for deformities.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Darkmoon said:


> I very much disagree with you. I wish more people would breed toward the original APBT. The stable temperament, loving, driven dogs of the past. Just like in other breeds you have good breeders and bad breeders. Sadly this breed happens to have a TON of bad breeders. I would like to say though that my next dog is going to be from a breeder and yes it's going to be an APBT. Why? Because I'm going to be doing weight pulling, agility, lure coursing, and other high energy, heavy working things and so far with rescues their health issues just do not cut it.
> 
> Why is it wrong for me to love the breed and want a good example of the breed that has the paperwork behind it?
> 
> ...


I would agree with everything you say for most other breeds. The problem with pits is not the dogs which are for the most part fine, but the people who acquire acquire and what is done with them. Not the wonderful dog owners on this board and the people we know, but the underside of pit ownership that occurs in the inner cities and poor rural areas.

In my area of Richmond, there are many pit and pit mixes with loving owners and happy lives. Just a few mile away in the low income area, there are many more pits that we never see. Pit puppies in squalid allies with little human contact, pits tied up 24/7 unloved and uncared for in front yards, young men baiting their pits on stray dogs, young men street fighting pits, police shooting pits without a second thought when entering a house on a bust, organised fighting rings, children being bitten by stray and loose pits. Pits being kept and raised as weapons, not pets. More pits are born into this kind of environment then loving homes.

I will happily trade the demise of the "real" pit type for a dog that is less attractive to people who think of them as weapons and and cheap, disposable junk yard guard dogs.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

then i dont think we should let them just die ... if anything i think we need to restrict who gets these dogs ... yea yea its a PITA and blah blah blah about rights ... but when somebody is buying a dog soley for the purpose of harming others with it then they DONT DESERVE A DOG EVER .... people need to just stop being stupid .... issue is they wont cuz of that same fact ... so my solution is limit/examine THOROUGHLY the people who get these dogs ... (granted i kinda feel this way about all pets ... but still)


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Oh dear God, I can't believe I am going to in any way come to understand Kasey's point of view, but here goes: 

The fact of the matter is that Pit Bulls, wonderful dogs that they can be, are wholly misunderstood by society as a whole, and it is a statistical fact that more Pit Bulls wind up in shelters, and thus, euthanized than any other breed today.

While there are good people who do appreciate the breed, who do breed for the good traits of the breed, who do not antagonize the negatives within the breed, do not breed them for fighting, do not further stigmatize the breed and do not use them as a status symbol for their own "thuggishness", there are a hundred more people that do, which in my opinion is outright abuse. Putting a moratorium on breeding of Pit Bulls, IMO, at least until the social stigma wears down and those who are ambassadors for the breed can outshine those who are shown to be monsters of the breed, might not be a bad idea at all. I say that for the safety of Pit Bulls as a whole, not because I am against Pit Bulls, and I do hope that is understood.

I'm a lover of all dogs, and I blame the deed not the breed, and I blame the owner not the dog. But as we all here know, not everyone in this world in which we live is that bright.

While my dog is only a mutt, her dominant mix is Rottie as everyone knows, and Rotties are the 2nd ranked "dangerous" breed in the U.S. right now. I have to lie about her breed in order to get rental housing because she is on the restricted breed list everywhere. And it doesn't matter that she is a mix. I know her temperament, I know her history. It doesn't matter. I also know the basic temperament of Rottweilers in general, and I know what they are capable of in the wrong hands, and in the right hands. It's the same thing with Pit Bulls. But for some reason, they are still worlds apart on the "fear scale" among people in the general public. There are those afraid of Rottweilers, too. But the media doesn't sensationalize them near as much as they do Pit Bulls. And people do feed on the media, don't they? Should we stop breeding Rottweilers? I would say the same thing about a moratorium on Rottie breeding if they were being put to death at the same rate that Pitties are.

I hate that I say these things, that I think these things, that I have to even feel these things, because I hate that I live in such an ignorant society.

On that note, did you see our precious baby girl, Layla????








7 weeks old and almost completely potty trained! Smart as a whip, no problems with bite inhibition, crate trained, sleeps through the night, cuddly, sweet. Just an absolute angel!!!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> a dog that is less attractive to people who think of them as weapons and and cheap, disposable junk yard guard dogs.


The same can be said for quite a few other breeds. Any large or intimidating-looking dog can be used as a weapon. Pits are probably the least human-aggressive of those breeds. Any dog can be used as a junkyard dog. Labs around here are a dime a dozen. Yard dogs, chained dogs, farm dogs, none of them cared for or cared about. If everyone in the world stopped breeding Labs it wouldn't make a difference. Those irresponsible sorts would just choose a different breed. Same with the irresponsible pit owners. If you take away their pit bulls they'll just get a different breed. 

Honestly, the reason pits are so popular with irresponsible sorts it's because they're so stable in temperment. One guy told me that he'd rather have a pit than a Dobe or a Rott because if he beat a Dobe or Rott it would take his arm off, but a pit won't bite you no matter what. Crazy to think that because the media hype would have you believe that pit bulls are ticking time bombs. But in reality there are millions of them in less-than-ideal circumstances and there are very few bite incidents, statistically speaking.

I really don't know what could be done about the irresponsible and cruel dog owners. Better funding for animal welfare programs would probably help. Better enforcement of existing animal welfare laws. But stopping or slowing the production of any one breed won't help at all.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

Oh this has gotten interesting! My thoughts on pits and their owners is this. Well all dogs for that matter. I believe that we should treat dogs like fire-arms. I know this may seem extreme but I honestly believe that since people are treating dogs like weapons we should treat them as such. You should have to have a permit to own dogs and prove that you are competent enough to own them depending on the breed. For example if you want say a pit than you have to have the correct personality to match up with them, and then go case by case. 

Of course this will never happen  and there are way too many dogs out there that need homes already, so it would only make it harder to find homes. But it sure would be nice not to have to deal with frustrating owners 

I personally think that pits have an unfair rep, it is not the fault of the dog but the owners. Sadly this causes many people to think the breed is a bad dog. Like today my dog was playing with a very pretty female blue pit, she was a little heavy and slightly exaggerated but she was not like the ones above by any means. Unfortunately she became too rough, nothing that would bother another pit or just a tougher dog (mine is a *****  ). But I had to separate them to calm my dog down from being nervous. I felt bad because it was nothing that the pit did and I know that people would look at the pit as being the bad one when she was just not a good play style for Ava. It is just too bad people look at them as such.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

infiniti said:


> While there are good people who do appreciate the breed, who do breed for the good traits of the breed, who do not antagonize the negatives within the breed, do not breed them for fighting, do not further stigmatize the breed and do not use them as a status symbol for their own "thuggishness", there are a hundred more people that do, which in my opinion is outright abuse. Putting a moratorium on breeding of Pit Bulls, IMO, at least until the social stigma wears down and those who are ambassadors for the breed can outshine those who are shown to be monsters of the breed, might not be a bad idea at all. I say that for the safety of Pit Bulls as a whole, not because I am against Pit Bulls, and I do hope that is understood



bull. pure unadulterated bull.

moratorium on breeding pits? might as well shoot them all outright. no. the idiots and fighters ARENT BREEDING AND FIGHTING CORRECT PIT BULLS. they're breeding and fighting any number of mixes and Ambullies. the REAL pit bull is RARE and PRECIOUS and is in serious danger of being extinct. not because of fighting...but because of attitudes like yours that lump all bullbreeds into the same stereotypical category.

i freakin cant believe you just said that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> I will happily trade the demise of the "real" pit type for a dog that is less attractive to people who think of them as weapons and and cheap, disposable junk yard guard dogs.


Except most thug types tend to go TOWARDS the am bully type. They like bragging about their 'low riders' with huge heads.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Except most thug types tend to go TOWARDS the am bully type. They like bragging about their 'low riders' with huge heads.


absolutely correct.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> absolutely correct.


Ya, can't say I understand the train of thought on this thread at all.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Miranda16 said:


> then i dont think we should let them just die ... if anything i think we need to restrict who gets these dogs ... yea yea its a PITA and blah blah blah about rights ... but when somebody is buying a dog soley for the purpose of harming others with it then they DONT DESERVE A DOG EVER .... people need to just stop being stupid .... issue is they wont cuz of that same fact ... so my solution is limit/examine THOROUGHLY the people who get these dogs ... (granted i kinda feel this way about all pets ... but still)


How do you decide who gets a dog? What criteria would you use, no black young man in baggies pants or skinheads covered with tats, ******** with less then 8 teeth? 

Fact is there is no legal way to restrict who can have a dog UNTIL a person has been convicted of cruelty, dog fighting, etc. If the government ever did attempt to restrict dog ownership in any manner the people on the board would flip out. Hell, they flip out when perfectly reasonable and effective spay/neuter legislation is proposed. Even if such law were passed they would be enforceable in the environment were they are most needed. No police department is going to spend money or time enforcing such a law.

If you want to maintain the "real" pit bull and all that is good about them, then you have to be willing to accept the the bad in the enormous suffering their existence entails. Maybe you all are willing to accept this. Me, not so much.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> bull. pure unadulterated bull.
> 
> moratorium on breeding pits? might as well shoot them all outright. no. the idiots and fighters ARENT BREEDING AND FIGHTING CORRECT PIT BULLS. they're breeding and fighting any number of mixes and Ambullies. the REAL pit bull is RARE and PRECIOUS and is in serious danger of being extinct. not because of fighting...but because of attitudes like yours that lump all bullbreeds into the same stereotypical category.
> 
> i freakin cant believe you just said that.


Zim, it doesn't matter what I think, or what you think ... the fact of the matter is what society thinks is what it is. You know as well as I do that YOU had to educate me on what a TRUE Pit Bull was, right? So do you think that I am the only ignorant person out of this entire world that doesn't know what a pure Pit Bull is??? No, I am not. They're ALL lumped into that same "stereotypical category" and they are all stigmatized and they are all abused to a level that no breed should be, do you at least agree with that?

Because of YOU, I have learned A LOT about Pit Bulls. I have come to appreciate, admire and love them like I never would have though I would have even 6 months ago. But I do know that "bully breeds", pit bulls or not, are euthanized in record numbers every day, due to societal bullsh*t. I know that they are feared due to societal bullsh*t. I do know they are the subject of much overhype because of much societal bullsh*t. But the fact remains that THAT societal bullsh*t is still king when it comes to regulating breed regulation in this country. And right now they are picking especially on pit bulls, whether they be APBT, AMStaffs, American Bulldogs, mixes of those, then come the Rotties, Dobies, Mastiffs, danes. And those are just the ones I have seen recently looking for houses to rent.

And guess what, I HAVE a new pit bull puppy. 7 week old Layla (pic on previous page). So it's not like I'm ragging on someone else's dog/breed either. And remember, Bella just might be half APBT, too.

I don't mean to offend, but I am TIRED of knowing that soooo many pits and bully mixes are dying every day because this society is STUPID!!! You know what dammit, if my Rottie bites someone ... she's going to have to likely be euthanized, but it will be MY fault that it happens. When the F will society wake the hell up and realize that???


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

infiniti said:


> They're ALL lumped into that same "stereotypical category" and they are all stigmatized and they are all abused to a level that no breed should be,


Yeah, but if there were no more pit bulls, do you think that there would be no more dogs being stigmatized and abused? Do you even think there would be fewer dogs being stigmatized and abused? Is there something inherent about pitties that makes them more likely to be stigmatized and abused than other breeds? I don't think so. I think they're just the unfortunate current whipping boys of the dog world. In the '80s it was Rotties. If everyone stops breeding pit bulls, I guarantee some other breed will take their place just as quickly.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

i think im done with this thread .... in all honestly its stupid for me to try and explain why i am opposed to everything you have said kasey ...and there are ways to check ... yes it means there are less dogs getting homes ... but it means the dogs that get homes are getting homes where people will give a rats buttocks about their care .... honestly i feel this way about ALL animals ... but i dont need to explain that to somebody who is just going to say things that are meant to conflict with my point of view ... granted what i want isnt going to happen it is my own solution to the problem ...


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, but unfortunately, if there were no more pit bulls, do you think that there would be no more dog being stigmatized and abused? Is there something inherent about pitties that makes them more likely to be stigmatized and abused than other breeds? I don't think so. I think they're just the unfortunate current whipping boys of the dog world. In the '80s it was Rotties. You stop breeding pit bulls, I guarantee some other breed will take their place just as quickly.


Exactly. They are the current whipping boys, I totally agree. In the 70's it was Dobies. In the 80's it was Rotties, I think. Or maybe it was the 90's. I don't remember. And a moratorium isn't an extinction. Right now the breeding of pits and pit mixes is totally out of control, which only further stigmatizes them because they are being bred by totally irresponsible people for the wrong reasons. That's my reasoning for the moratorium. Hell, it doesn't even have to be a moratorium. Regulate the breeding of Pit Bulls to certain breeders, licensed, controlled, etc.

And by the way, just so you know Kasey ... There's been a lot more aggression bred into Golden Retrievers of late and a lot more dog attacks by Golden Retrievers in recent years. They aren't the lovable, cuddly family dogs that they were formerly known as because of bad breeding practices. Just thought you might like to know. So even the "sweet" breeds can take the face off of a little kid, and the arm off an adult.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

infiniti said:


> When the F will society wake the hell up and realize that???


when people start listening. its NOT what I me Zim thinks...its what is. the breed as its supposed to be is rare as hell. three generations of no breeding...and they will be gone and we'll STILL be overrun with the second rate version.

the way to save them is to breed them. breed them in the manner of the stewards of the breed that are working hard to preserve these dogs.(Matrix Kennels and Boldog Kennel being the most prominent examples..google them.) if you want to stop the suffering of bully mixes everywhere...address THAT issue and speak up IN FAVOR of addressing that issue.

download and read this would you? before you call for killing off a breed that in its true form is a treasure of history.
http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/Pit_Bull_download.pdf


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess I don't understand how a moratorium would help things. The bad guys would just choose a different breed. The stigma would be shifted to _that_ breed. It wouldn't make a difference one way or the other. Except instead of seeing "pit bull...!!!" in the news you'd see "Rottweiler...!!!" or "Doberman Pinscher...!!!".


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

I will read that tomorrow, will consider myself educated once again, and will even consider distributing it wherever I can think of to distribute it.

But my last question before I go to bed ... Did you see our new baby Layla???


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I guess I don't understand how a moratorium would help things. The bad guys would just choose a different breed. The stigma would be shifted to _that_ breed. It wouldn't make a difference one way or the other. Except instead of seeing "pit bull...!!!" in the news you'd see "Rottweiler...!!!" or "Doberman Pinscher...!!!".


most likely one of the Central Asian LGD breeds or one of the Japanese fighting breeds and the other possibility is a Pakistani fighting breed. all are used for fighting in other countries and ive found multiple references to each of them being "waaaaaaaay harder and better than any pit bull" in those places i know online that fighters tend to pop up.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

> because they are being bred by totally irresponsible people for the wrong reasons.


Zim I think you said you wanted to breed the true pit bulls, and good for you. It is not easy to stand up for a breed that is looked down on, h*ll its not even easy to own one without gettins stupid questions and remarks passed by you. And its because of a*sholes like these: http://xtremebullypitbulls.com/index.htm that its going to make it even harder for your quest. But you seem very passionate about educating people on pits and we sure do need more people like that. I wish I could educate my husband more on pits =( he just doesn't seem to be able to see past the stigma, however he is learning there is a big difference in the pit bulls we see everywhere and the true pit bulls. I think he is warming up to the idea that the true pit bulls are good dogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Active Dog said:


> Zim I think you said you wanted to breed the true pit bulls, and good for you. It is not easy to stand up for a breed that is looked down on, h*ll its not even easy to own one without gettins stupid questions and remarks passed by you. And its because of a*sholes like these: http://xtremebullypitbulls.com/index.htm that its going to make it even harder for your quest. But you seem very passionate about educating people on pits and we sure do need more people like that. I wish I could educate my husband more on pits =( he just doesn't seem to be able to see past the stigma, however he is learning there is a big difference in the pit bulls we see everywhere and the true pit bulls. I think he is warming up to the idea that the true pit bulls are good dogs.


these are my role models.

www.workingpitbull.com


Boldog Kennel said:


> I'm not a puppy peddler and you can't buy a dog from me -


http://www.matrixkennels.com/(and Dr. Scott Dowd, the breeder in charge of the matrix network..runs this site: www.apbtconformation.com)


Matrix Kennels said:


> Matrix Kennels has NO BREEDINGS for public Consideration!
> 
> Just like the old days we keep it in the family!
> 
> ...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> most likely one of the Central Asian LGD breeds or one of the Japanese fighting breeds and the other possibility is a Pakistani fighting breed. all are used for fighting in other countries and ive found multiple references to each of them being "waaaaaaaay harder and better than any pit bull" in those places i know online that fighters tend to pop up.


Or one of the mastiffs like boerboels or filas or corsos. And THAT would be so much worse than them having pit bulls.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Or one of the mastiffs like boerboels or filas or corsos. And THAT would be so much worse than them having pit bulls.


that's already going on.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> I will happily trade the demise of the "real" pit type for a dog that is less attractive to people who think of them as weapons and and cheap, disposable junk yard guard dogs.


I think you really need to educate yourself (and everyone who agrees with her on this point) http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/ncrc-publications/0/

Lets see at one point it was the Bloodhound, Mastiff, Newfoundlands, Huskys, then came the Rotties, Dobermans, German Shepherds, now it is the Pit Bull. No matter what you think if it's not one breed it's another. When one breed starts to become unpopular another breed WILL take it's place, not might WILL. 

As it is now, you ask people what a Pit Bull is, most if not all will point to the American Bully. The general public has no clue what a Pit Bull is, heck did you know by the general public's knowledge, I have a Boxer? Most people can't tell the difference between my Pit Bull and a Boxer. Even people who deal with BSL and are in charge of deciding if a dog is a Pit Bull or not, can't tell the difference between Labs, Boxers and Pits. Most Pit Bulls aren't fought, if they are the one's they are fighting are the American Bullies not actual APBTs. It's ignorance like this that is causing the issues with our breed. 

This is why BSL doesn't work, this is why fear mongering is so dangerous. People don't get the facts right, sound informed, and people who have no clue listen. There is a reason why I try to take Nubs to every dog friendly event I can find. I always dress him up in something stupid and I always try to wear a shirt with writing on it like "Punish the deed, not the breed" or "Peace, love, and Pit Bulls". I've had more people stop me to find out the REAL information since I've started doing this, then ever before. Most people do not want to fear the breed they just don't know any better. It's very VERY hard to find a good breeder in general (I know I'm starting my search and have come to the conclusion that I'm not going to be able to get what I want locally). People turn to BYBers because of that alone. 

Education is what is needed. Going out to events like I do and talking to the general public. Spending time at Petco and other dog friendly places and talking, handing out pamphlets, and being friendly. THAT is what is going to change people's mind on the breed, and even breeding their dogs. This includes pit bull breeders as well. Most people just do not know what type of overpopulation issues there are in the world when it comes to all dogs. Some people just need that information to change their minds.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Willowy said:


> The same can be said for quite a few other breeds. Any large or intimidating-looking dog can be used as a weapon. Pits are probably the least human-aggressive of those breeds. Any dog can be used as a junkyard dog. Labs around here are a dime a dozen. Yard dogs, chained dogs, farm dogs, none of them cared for or cared about. If everyone in the world stopped breeding Labs it wouldn't make a difference. Those irresponsible sorts would just choose a different breed. Same with the irresponsible pit owners. If you take away their pit bulls they'll just get a different breed.
> 
> Honestly, the reason pits are so popular with irresponsible sorts it's because they're so stable in temperament. One guy told me that he'd rather have a pit than a Dobe or a Rott because if he beat a Dobe or Rott it would take his arm off, but a pit won't bite you no matter what. Crazy to think that because the media hype would have you believe that pit bulls are ticking time bombs. But in reality there are millions of them in less-than-ideal circumstances and there are very few bite incidents, statistically speaking.
> 
> I really don't know what could be done about the irresponsible and cruel dog owners. Better funding for animal welfare programs would probably help. Better enforcement of existing animal welfare laws. But stopping or slowing the production of any one breed won't help at all.


What makes pits unique from all other types of dogs is their history as the only American fighting breed.

You and I probably don't know a single dog fighter and couldn't put a bet on a dog fight if our child's life depended on it. Every kid growing up in the inner city and in certain parts of the rural south is well aware of organized dog fighting as well as street fighting. This is why, for example, it was rare that any NFL player raised in the inner city criticized Michael Vick. If you grow up in these areas, pit fighting is simply part of life. 

The overwhelming reason why pits suffer so much is their history and identification as the only real fighting dog (except of course for those fighting Papillons you sometimes see being led around on 1 in. chains).


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> How do you decide who gets a dog? What criteria would you use, no black young man in baggies pants or skinheads covered with tats, ******** with less then 8 teeth?
> 
> Fact is there is no legal way to restrict who can have a dog UNTIL a person has been convicted of cruelty, dog fighting, etc. If the government ever did attempt to restrict dog ownership in any manner the people on the board would flip out. Hell, they flip out when perfectly reasonable and effective spay/neuter legislation is proposed. Even if such law were passed they would be enforceable in the environment were they are most needed. No police department is going to spend money or time enforcing such a law.
> 
> If you want to maintain the "real" pit bull and all that is good about them, then you have to be willing to accept the the bad in the enormous suffering their existence entails. Maybe you all are willing to accept this. Me, not so much.


Just to let you know, rescues and breeders are not obligated to sell their dogs to anyone. In fact, good rescues and responsible breeders DON'T sell their dogs to people who intend to use their dogs for fighting. They screen potential buyers to make sure they're selling dogs to decent people, not dealing them out to anyone with a big enough wad of cash... (Like the breeders of the "exaggerated" pit bulls that you support)


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Just to let you know, rescues and breeders are not obligated to sell their dogs to anyone. In fact, good rescues and responsible breeders DON'T sell their dogs to people who intend to use their dogs for fighting. They screen potential buyers to make sure they're selling dogs to decent people, not dealing them out to anyone with a big enough wad of cash... (Like the breeders of the "exaggerated" pit bulls that you support)


the two breeders i mentioned dont sell dogs. if you want a dog, you have to prove you're capable. you have to participate, put forth effort like working hands on with the breeder's dogs and allowing the breeder to instruct you and guide you in learning about the breed...in person. once you get a dog from them, they are in your life for the life of the dog. and if you want one of their dogs..you have to accept that. the dogs remain chipped in the breeder's name and tattooed with the breeder's info. there is a contract involved as well. and one of them requires a criminal background check. most often they go to *demonstrably* show and working homes. Boldog kennel places dogs with police departments as well.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> What makes pits unique from all other types of dogs is their history as the only American fighting breed.


America used to LOVE their bully dogs.









The most decorated war dog.









Petey from Little Rascals

















They were the go-to type of dog for advertising. I can't find it now but I've seen an army recruiting poster featuring a Bull Terrier.

I also don't understand how you get killing dogs for something you admit isn't there fault. It's not a dog problem, it's an irresponsible owner problem. It's ALWAYS an irresponsible owner problem. And I'm sorry, I don't think killing dogs is the way to address that.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i want to correct a misconception here.

pit fighting is not a phenomenon that is solely restricted to matching dogs against other dogs. never has been and still isnt. 

so i see in a quote that someone says that Pit Bulls are the only American fighting breed.

BULL.

from Wikipedia(and can be verified through other sources)

THE RAT TERRIER



> The Rat Terrier is an American dog breed......the breed name comes from the occupation of its earliest brought to the US by working class British migrants, these quick, tough little dogs *gained their fame in rat pit gambling*



THE BOSTON TERRIER

again from Wiki(and again verifiable by other sources)



> Bred down in size from *pit-fighting dogs* of the Bull and Terrier types,



go back far enough in ANY BREED'S HISTORY and you will find dogs employed in violent occupations..from War and Protection work to hunting to fighting. 

yes pit bulls have a fighting past. so what?

get rid of the pit bulls? go ahead..then you'll be dealing with something like THIS










dog fighting has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TYPE OF DOG..and EVERYTHING to do with *human culture and human nature*<--this is the problem.

yes another case of punishing the breed and not the deed.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

just wanted to tell Infiniti congrats on Layla, she's adorable!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Wow unbelieveable... and PetSmart here in Pa wanted to kick me out for taking clients there to socialize their dogs... Thinks they got their ethics screwed up.


Oh no, I let the PetSmart manager know what was happening in front of his store and he quickly told the guy to get moving or the Police and A/C would be called.



KaseyT said:


> What makes pits unique from all other types of dogs is their history as the only American fighting breed.
> 
> You and I probably don't know a single dog fighter and couldn't put a bet on a dog fight if our child's life depended on it. Every kid growing up in the inner city and in certain parts of the rural south is well aware of organized dog fighting as well as street fighting. This is why, for example, it was rare that any NFL player raised in the inner city criticized Michael Vick. If you grow up in these areas, pit fighting is simply part of life.
> 
> The overwhelming reason why pits suffer so much is their history and identification as the only real fighting dog (except of course for those fighting Papillons you sometimes see being led around on 1 in. chains).


Wow just wow, there are so many breeds out there that are bred for fighting, or were originally. Nearly every Molossor out there are descended from Roman colosium dogs that fought Humans, Lions and anything else the Romans decided they should fight, right now in the modern world there are dozens of breeds that are being bred to fight in pits. Look up the Banne Dog, Tosa Inu and Fila Brasilerio. 

When it comes to who people adopt or sell dogs to, there are checks that can be done to insure a breeder or rescues dogs don't fall into the wrong hands, as muchas people may cry about home inspections and wanting referances by a breeder or rescue those things arethere for a reason and I myself am always glad to do them for a breeder or rescue that wishes it (and I have. Remember that these people can refuse ot sell a pup or adopt a dog to ANYONE they see fit to refuse. In fact it's a PART of being a responsible breeder to screen potential puppy homes and the biggest reason a responsible breeder will NEVER sell their pups to a pet store. 

As far as "reasonable spay nueter laws", there are NO such things, the govenment has NO business regulating MY medical decisions be it for myself, my family or my animals. Then again I am a libertarian when it comes to Government interferance in our personal lives.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> dog fighting has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TYPE OF DOG..and EVERYTHING to do with *human culture and human nature*<--this is the problem.
> 
> yes another case of punishing the breed and not the deed.


I just want to requote what Zim is saying. Fighting Dog aginst Dog or Human aginst Dog, or Animal aginst Animal has been happening since the dawn of time. Pick up the book White Fang and read it. It's about a Husky (or mal)/ wolf hybrid who was one of the top dog fighters in the north that was turned into a pet, and ended up getting his butt kicked by some little sheltie/collie. This is HUMAN culture and its a WORLD WIDE thing not just here in the US. Dog fighting is still very much legal in other parts of the world and even over there APBTs are the idea breed for fighting because of their stable temperaments, willingness to fight, and loyalty. 

There are so many different breeds of dogs that were used in Dog fighting besides APBTs. Heck even Boxers where used in dog fighting. You still will find that while Pit Bulls are normally the dog of choice for fighting, they aren't the only breeds that are fought. 

Heck did you know there is Cricket Fighting over in China http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_fighting? For one of my high school science classes everyone in the class got a cricket and for the next week every other day we fought them. Guess who Cricket's won and got the extra credit for the class? MINE. My cricket tore some of the other crickets legs off and wings off, it was amazing and guess what? It was FUN. Yup, it was FUN to watch and I can tell you I was darn proud of my Grapenut for winning (yeah that was the crickets name). I didn't know any better, now I do. But this was high school, being taught about the fighting culture and shown how to do it.

KaseyT, You think you have this all figured out, but your far from that. You have much to learn.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

actually just a small quibble DM. it depends on where you go which is the most prominent fighting breed..Japan for example you dont see much in the way of pit bulls fighting..because Tosa Inu on Tosa Inu battles are where it's at over there. Its legal, sanctioned and has strict observances that are akin to being religious in nature.

Russia its an even split between pit bulls and LGDs.

Europe i would say that from what i can tell its mostly pit bulls but in reality in places where fighting is illegal....there's no real way to know..because its illegal. 

same with america..you can go off what select individuals involved say but its really anecdotal...even with the busts because its pretty obvious that there have been some busts that were likely bogus. 

but the rest..spot on lady..


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> most likely one of the Central Asian LGD breeds or one of the Japanese fighting breeds and the other possibility is a Pakistani fighting breed. all are used for fighting in other countries and ive found multiple references to each of them being "waaaaaaaay harder and better than any pit bull" in those places i know online that fighters tend to pop up.





Laurelin said:


> Or one of the mastiffs like boerboels or filas or corsos. And THAT would be so much worse than them having pit bulls.


^^^^^^^
Yep to both of the above. Zim the bully kutta right? Some idiot has just imported some over here!
SBT and pit bulls are becoming a thing of the past here and all the wanabe thugs are going for molloser type dogs,even worse they are breeding pit bulls with mastiffs to create "bandogge" type dogs which in the wrong hands is not a good thing. Aslans mum is a bandogge type and her temperament is foul,thankfully Aslan didn't inherit that.

I can see KaseyT's point of view and to be a good bully breed owner i think you need to respect those type of views but its essentially BSL and i could never agree with that. I talk to many small dog owners who are scared of bully breeds and often they leave me with a different perspective on things,if more of us took time to talk to other breed owners it wouldn't be a bad thing.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Yes..the Bully Kutta.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i want to correct a misconception here.
> 
> pit fighting is not a phenomenon that is solely restricted to matching dogs against other dogs. never has been and still isnt.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with the bolded statement.

Congrats on Layla Infiniti!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> Every kid growing up in the inner city and in certain parts of the rural south is well aware of organized dog fighting as well as street fighting.


Yes, and every one of them grew up with pet pit bulls, hanging off of a pit bull's ears and eating the dog's food when they were 2 years old. And the bite incidences are still amazingly low. Try that with any other breed.


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

BooLette said:


> I have to disagree with the bolded statement.


why is that?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

BooLette said:


> I have to disagree with the bolded statement.



Bolded statement (hard to find in that big post!) "go back far enough in ANY BREED'S HISTORY and you will find dogs employed in violent occupations..from War and Protection work to hunting to fighting." 

Well, maybe not some breeds....but a lot of little dog breeds were once ratters. Which would fall under "hunting". I would say that finding a breed without any prior violent affiliation would be difficult.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Bolded statement (hard to find in that big post!) "go back far enough in ANY BREED'S HISTORY and you will find dogs employed in violent occupations..from War and Protection work to hunting to fighting."
> 
> Well, maybe not some breeds....but a lot of little dog breeds were once ratters. Which would fall under "hunting". I would say that finding a breed without any prior violent affiliation would be difficult.


the point was that all dogs descend from carnivorous animals capable of violence and yes go back far enough in ANY dog's lineage and you'll find violence. the dogs that small breeds came from werent always small. to clarify, i was speaking in the grand scheme of things.


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

Hi there GSD. Is that true? Do you have any basis for that? I am asking this becasue I am thinking of owning an american pitbull. Do you have any inputs regarding this? Is this kind of breed harmful? or they attack randomly? please send me inputs regarding this. Thanks a lot.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

They aren't harmful, they don't attack randomly. It's all about training and being in the right/wrong hands.

They ARE a powerful dog who needs a lot of mental and physical stimulation. They are not always dog friendly, but should never show any aggression towards people.

If you're looking for Pit Bull info, search the posts of zimandtakaandgrrandmimi and Darkmoon.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

JeanieStecher said:


> Hi there GSD. Is that true? Do you have any basis for that? I am asking this becasue I am thinking of owning an american pitbull. Do you have any inputs regarding this? Is this kind of breed harmful? or they attack randomly? please send me inputs regarding this. Thanks a lot.


GSD's post refers to American Bullies..which are NOT American Pit Bull Terriers.


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## GSD (Jul 18, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would breed any kind of pit bull for any reason. No type of dog in American history has suffered more and been abused more then pit bulls. No type of dog is dieing in kill shelters in greater numbers then pit bulls.
> 
> *However, if you're going to breed pits, then I am all for breeding exotic variants that are unsuitable for fighting, cost to much for the average thug gangsta wannabe, and are unusual enough to get quickly adopted when they end up in a shelter. The world certainly doesn't need any more "real" pit bulls bred intentionally. A thousand "real" pit puppies will die tonight.*


Lord have mercy are you serious do you know that people will still try to fight these sloppy POS dogs? They will die by choking on their tongue. You also know that it is the Thugs that are paying big bucks for these dogs? We can nay say dog fighting all we want but it wasn't until dog fighting was made a crime that we had this pit bull problem. Here is how I see it. When the dogs were being raised for a purpose it was not easy to get one, these dogmen didnt just sell them to some schmuck with the money, most kept many dogs and sometimes a whole litter and the ones that made the cut lived the others were culled not dumped in the streets or at the pounds. Also let someone do something stupid in the dogmans world and word spread so fast they would be out of the dogs. period. These men and woman made this a passion and without them the breed would not be what it is. They culled man biters (although a few were not culled anyone who knows anything about pit bull history knows that Zebo was a horrid man biter and was let to live but this was rare) see now we have these Peta pet owners who want to make excuses for when thier pit bull bites and that is wrong all wrong. 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> these are my role models.
> 
> www.workingpitbull.com
> 
> ...


Please dont look up to Diane she is a fake, she has placed an unstable, horrid conformation dog into a home that should never have been placed. SHe has stolen dog from dog raids and put down puppies for being dog aggressive which you would have to assume since she got them from a well know dogman whose lines are old school she is not worth your admiration.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the two breeders i mentioned dont sell dogs. if you want a dog, you have to prove you're capable. you have to participate, put forth effort like working hands on with the breeder's dogs and allowing the breeder to instruct you and guide you in learning about the breed...in person. once you get a dog from them, they are in your life for the life of the dog. and if you want one of their dogs..you have to accept that. the dogs remain chipped in the breeder's name and tattooed with the breeder's info. there is a contract involved as well. and one of them requires a criminal background check. most often they go to *demonstrably* show and working homes. Boldog kennel places dogs with police departments as well.


You dont want a boldog dog, trust me and diane has placed dogs into homes and they are unstable and unsuitable to be alive.






JeanieStecher said:


> Hi there GSD. Is that true? Do you have any basis for that? I am asking this becasue I am thinking of owning an american pitbull. Do you have any inputs regarding this? Is this kind of breed harmful? or they attack randomly? please send me inputs regarding this. Thanks a lot.


The american pit bull terrier is an awesome breed that will do well with all people, if you want to have a dog that will play with other dogs then a pit bull wont be it, but if you want a best friend for your whole family then they are the best. Now you have to be careful because these low lifes are registering these Am Bullys as pit bulls more money if the dog is registered guess maybe they are thinking charge by the pound lol. If you are interested I can give you some links to some good breeders where you will get a sound dog, but like I said you probably wont be able to have it around other animals as it matures. Just let me know.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GSD said:


> Lord have mercy are you serious do you know that people will still try to fight these sloppy POS dogs? They will die by choking on their tongue. You also know that it is the Thugs that are paying big bucks for these dogs? We can nay say dog fighting all we want but it wasn't until dog fighting was made a crime that we had this pit bull problem. Here is how I see it. When the dogs were being raised for a purpose it was not easy to get one, these dogmen didnt just sell them to some schmuck with the money, most kept many dogs and sometimes a whole litter and the ones that made the cut lived the others were culled not dumped in the streets or at the pounds. Also let someone do something stupid in the dogmans world and word spread so fast they would be out of the dogs. period. These men and woman made this a passion and without them the breed would not be what it is. They culled man biters (although a few were not culled anyone who knows anything about pit bull history knows that Zebo was a horrid man biter and was let to live but this was rare) see now we have these Peta pet owners who want to make excuses for when thier pit bull bites and that is wrong all wrong.
> 
> 
> Please dont look up to Diane she is a fake, she has placed an unstable, horrid conformation dog into a home that should never have been placed. SHe has stolen dog from dog raids and put down puppies for being dog aggressive which you would have to assume since she got them from a well know dogman whose lines are old school she is not worth your admiration.
> ...



im not talking about the dogs themselves...im talking about the idea of kennel set up. i have tons of quibbles with Jessup's practices but the idea of NOT SELLING PUPPIES is of extreme merit. 

as far as your other accusations..ive heard them before. what's your evidence? im not saying they arent true..but im not saying they are true either.


there's also someone here who has a Boldog dog. you should ask him about it if you run into him on the forum. his sn is Donovan.


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## GSD (Jul 18, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> actually just a small quibble DM. it depends on where you go which is the most prominent fighting breed..Japan for example you dont see much in the way of pit bulls fighting..because Tosa Inu on Tosa Inu battles are where it's at over there. Its legal, sanctioned and has strict observances that are akin to being religious in nature.
> 
> Russia its an even split between pit bulls and LGDs.
> 
> ...


Japan is getting more towards the pit bull they have proven over and over that they can whoop the Tosa they never thought it was so but its true the pit bull is ruling the rings there too.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GSD said:


> Japan is getting more towards the pit bull they have proven over and over that they can whoop the Tosa they never thought it was so but its true the pit bull is ruling the rings there too.


where'd you hear that?


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## GSD (Jul 18, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> im not talking about the dogs themselves...im talking about the idea of kennel set up. i have tons of quibbles with Jessup's practices but the idea of NOT SELLING PUPPIES is of extreme merit.
> 
> as far as your other accusations..ive heard them before. what's your evidence? im not saying they arent true..but im not saying they are true either.
> 
> ...


Oh she had it on her site that she took two pups from a raid and put them down because of dog aggression. Yes not selling pups is a good point I suppose just hate when people go gaga over her because she really isnt all that she should be helping these dogmen who have not done anything wrong since the sport was banned instead she cant wait to get her hands on their dogs that is sad to me. Also another note is that any pit bull owner should despise the HSUS they are out to get our dogs and are not Humane at all when it comes to pit bulls. Diane works for them/with them and that alones makes her an enemy too


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

GSD said:


> Oh she had it on her site that she took two pups from a raid and put them down because of dog aggression. Yes not selling pups is a good point I suppose just hate when people go gaga over her because she really isnt all that she should be helping these dogmen who have not done anything wrong since the sport was banned instead she cant wait to get her hands on their dogs that is sad to me. Also another note is that any pit bull owner should despise the HSUS they are out to get our dogs and are not Humane at all when it comes to pit bulls. Diane works for them/with them and that alones makes her an enemy too


hi there. I think if we should try to kill dogs, send them to government institutions who takes care of dogs instead. This is a way of eliminating dog problems in a humane way. =)


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

.......what?


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

The thought processes in this thread make my head spin.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

JeanieStecher said:


> hi there. I think if we should try to kill dogs, send them to government institutions who takes care of dogs instead. This is a way of eliminating dog problems in a humane way. =)


.............

That is all......
......


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## hubavotialo (Jul 21, 2010)

looks like this dog is on steroids  I hope I'm wrong


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

JeanieStecher said:


> hi there. I think if we should try to kill dogs, send them to government institutions who takes care of dogs instead. This is a way of eliminating dog problems in a humane way. =)


No such thing, if a shelter is govenment run it will be far more likely to put the dogs down.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

My mind is still spinning from reading this whole thread. One question comes to mind. I wonder how many of you "true Pit Bull" fans would like to see dog aggression bred out of the Pit Bull. What if the dog could still have all of the love for humans, energy, working drive, athletic ability that they do now but no or at least a whole lot less dog aggression? Would you promote that type of breeding or would you say "It isn't true to the breed?"

In Rottweiler's I think breeders started seeing the problems at hand and many of them started breeding a slightly softer breed. I have seen huge changes in my favorite breed over the past 33 years. There are a lot more Teddy Bear Rottweiler's now. We live in a law suit happy world so part of me can understand it. The other part is angry that people who cannot handle them as they were, insisted on owning them and being irresponsible with them, causing the issue in the first place. 

I also know that it takes generations to make changes within a breed. I would not want to lose any of the positive attributes that Pit Bulls have. Regardless of what some folks think, this IS and amazing breed. That said, until we can change people (a cold day in you know where) we need to do what we can.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Inga, I'd be willing to bet that if it meant sacrificing gameness, most people would NOT want to see DA completely bred out of the breed.

I can kind of understand it.. I don't like the idea of every breed of dog having the same exact temperament.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Inga, When I first got into the breed I said the same thing and got my butt handed to be on a sliver platter by the forum I was on at that time, even banned when the Mod on that forum couldn't refute what I was saying. (That mod and I are now good friends and I might even be getting a puppy from her in the future). As I've been told, "You don't want DA, get an Amstaff".

Breeders of this breed firmly believe that if you can't handle a dog with DA then you do not need to own this breed plain and simple. Breeding out the DA would allow the true Pit Bulls into people who should not own the breed to begin with.

It's like telling the breeders of BC's to breed out the herding instinct because there is only very few who need that trait anymore. They aren't going to be happy about it.

Now there are some breeders who are breeding less DA dogs, and there are lines in the APBT that are less likely to be DA then others. You just have to do the research on it.

Besides we all know for the most part, it's not the breeders who would think about these things that the DA issues is even an issue. It's Billy Joe down the street breeding his "rare blue" to his "rare red" that the issue lies.


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## GSD (Jul 18, 2010)

I for one would not want to do that. I mean could you imagine people asking lab breeders to breed away from retrieving because hunting is cruel? We all love the breeds we love for a certain reason, and if people can not handle a pit bull they should not have one.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> Inga, When I first got into the breed I said the same thing and got my butt handed to be on a sliver platter by the forum I was on at that time, even banned when the Mod on that forum couldn't refute what I was saying. (That mod and I are now good friends and I might even be getting a puppy from her in the future). As I've been told, "You don't want DA, get an Amstaff".
> 
> Breeders of this breed firmly believe that if you can't handle a dog with DA then you do not need to own this breed plain and simple. Breeding out the DA would allow the true Pit Bulls into people who should not own the breed to begin with.
> 
> ...


Just curious, but why exactly do pit bull breeders NEED their dogs to be DA? Considering that dog fighting is illegal and EXTREMELY immoral (Not even on the same plane as herding or retrieving, no comparison AT ALL. These dogs are being maimed and dying horrible deaths, not running into the woods and retrieving a dead duck, or chasing a herd of sheep), it doesn't seem to me like there is a legitimate reason at all. Also, IMO, dogs are social creatures, they are not solitary beings. DA to me seems like a highly unnatural trait, caused by mental instability. Very undesirable IMO. I can't imagine why a breeder with multiple pit bulls would enjoy having to keep them all separated and risk a fight all the time. Doesn't sound fair to the pit bulls, either.

You can still have a pit bull that pulls, a pit bull with the strength and personality that was intended, but why does the pit bull have to want to fight with other dogs? The only reason I can see for a breeder to breed DA into their dogs is because they want their dogs to fight, or want to keep dog fighting alive, which frankly, is sickening.

Also, I'd like to mention that other breeds were "changed" in ways that nobody is complaining about. For one, Mastiffs fought humans and animals of all sorts. However, their aggression was bred out, and for good reason I believe. Personally I find the history of Mastiffs fighting with humans and large animals to be barbaric, and I can't possibly imagine why anyone would advocate such cruelty. I understand that the Mastiff temperament changed, too, and I'm not saying that all pit bulls should be big soft teddy bears with no drive of tenacity. But they don't need aggression to have the proper personality. 

Also, it's not really a matter of "If you can't handle the breed, you shouldn't own one." Whether or not your breed is DA doesn't mean that suddenly breeders can't screen potential buyers and still be discriminating about who they sell their puppies to. If breeders are breeding DA into their dogs to keep away those that "can't handle" the breed, then that's highly illogical.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the DA thing.

here's MY take.


its a trait. like any other. and like any other not very well understood trait, it may be tied to other key traits. with that said...

as a breeder i will consider the total dog. i want to pair the dogs that have the best OVERALL health, temperament and structure. so if i have a dog with that who also happens to be DA, ill breed that dog so that all that other good genetic material isnt wasted.

to me..its a non issue. its not something to actively work against or to actively breed for. its not a priority either way. 

as per the Standard



> Although some degree of dog aggressiveness is characteristic of the breed, unruly behavior will detract from the judges ability to accurately judge an individual dogs conformation.


which i interpret as "not really a big deal." by reason of the phrase "some degree". 

and to be honest there are avenues other than dog fighting in which DA is useful, as exemplified by the example of a friend of mine camping with his pit bull, who drove off three coyotes attempting to raid his camp.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I'm with Zim on this topic...I have discussed this with my friend who breeds working/sporting APBTs.... they nether breed for DA or try to breed it out. They have a goal they are trying to achieve and if the Sir or dam has attributes that they are looking for in their program and is also DA so be it


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## rippedcb (Jun 3, 2010)

ahhh.. i was staying away from this thread for a reason but this DA thing i can't help but speak. The way i see it, i'd not want anything changed with this breed. Given that this breed can be DA but its something that can be managed by someone who knows and understands this breed. and which other breed is not DA? Dogs of any breed can be involved in a fight, its an individual dog thing. On the other hand, this breed has such an amazing temperment, DA shouldn't be an issue for someone who knows what they are doing. 

One can't just single handedly breed out DA ALONE.. its impossible without loosing other beautiful traits.. Courage and confidence being two. I would hate to have people trying to breed specific traits out and in doing so produce nervous/shy biters. Those are the dogs that bite.. not true pitbulls with good temperment. I think* TEMPERMENT* is the key word, instead of DA.

Its just not as simple as.. "breeding out DA".


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the DA thing.
> 
> here's MY take.
> 
> ...


I think there are varying degrees of DA, too. For instance, I can understand accepting a dog who is okay with other dogs in close proximity (Such as a dog show) but might get a little snappy once in a while and isn't what you would call "dog park dogs." Think certain other terrier personalities. But I think dogs that are so DA that they can't even handle being in he same room as another dog are a problem. 

I don't know if driving off coyotes is a valid reason for being DA, though. Coyotes aren't dogs, and this sort of thing could be a product of protectiveness without needing to express aggression towards other dogs. Just like a dog can be protective and drive off a dangerous human without needing to be HA.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I think there are varying degrees of DA, too. For instance, I can understand accepting a dog who is okay with other dogs in close proximity (Such as a dog show) but might get a little snappy once in a while and isn't what you would call "dog park dogs." Think certain other terrier personalities. But I think dogs that are so DA that they can't even handle being in he same room as another dog are a problem.
> 
> I don't know if driving off coyotes is a valid reason for being DA, though. Coyotes aren't dogs, and this sort of thing could be a product of protectiveness without needing to express aggression towards other dogs. Just like a dog can be protective and drive off a dangerous human without needing to be HA.


why do you do you feel that its a problem?......not being snippy just curious


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Nargle said:


> Just curious, but why exactly do pit bull breeders NEED their dogs to be DA? Considering that dog fighting is illegal and EXTREMELY immoral (Not even on the same plane as herding or retrieving, no comparison AT ALL. These dogs are being maimed and dying horrible deaths, not running into the woods and retrieving a dead duck, or chasing a herd of sheep), it doesn't seem to me like there is a legitimate reason at all. Also, IMO, dogs are social creatures, they are not solitary beings. DA to me seems like a highly unnatural trait, caused by mental instability. Very undesirable IMO. I can't imagine why a breeder with multiple pit bulls would enjoy having to keep them all separated and risk a fight all the time. Doesn't sound fair to the pit bulls, either.
> 
> You can still have a pit bull that pulls, a pit bull with the strength and personality that was intended, but why does the pit bull have to want to fight with other dogs? The only reason I can see for a breeder to breed DA into their dogs is because they want their dogs to fight, or want to keep dog fighting alive, which frankly, is sickening.
> 
> ...


I totally agree!


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

pugmom said:


> why do you do you feel that its a problem?......not being snippy just curious


For one, it's extremely difficult to live with such a dog. I used to help take care of an Australian Shepherd that was extremely DA. I could barely walk her, she couldn't go to the vet without there being absolute chaos, and she was just in general very unhappy. Luckily she was an only dog, but if she was living with several other dogs (Like a breeder's situation) then it would have been horrible for her. She would have to be crated/secluded for a significant portion of her day, and it would be very difficult to supply her with all of the human attention, mental stimulation and exercise she needs. 

Second, the stress of absolutely flying off the handle every time another dog comes within her view must have been extremely stressful. It was like she was having a panic attack, and I certainly believe that dogs with extreme DA suffer from mental instability and anxiety. I would never dream of breeding my SA dog for fear of producing more dogs with a dramatically decreased quality of life due to anxiety.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I think there are varying degrees of DA, too. For instance, I can understand accepting a dog who is okay with other dogs in close proximity (Such as a dog show) but might get a little snappy once in a while and isn't what you would call "dog park dogs." Think certain other terrier personalities. But I think dogs that are so DA that they can't even handle being in he same room as another dog are a problem.


no, its really not. Bolo was like that. not able to be in the same room with other dogs. i taught her otherwise. within pits..DA is just not a priority because within this particular breed there is another trait that is MANDATORY that totally trumps the DA issue. the defining temperament characteristic of the APBT isnt DA. its their people oriented nature that is willing to go to great lengths for their humans and <---THAT is both what makes them so special AND ups their danger potential..not DA. but that trait cancels out DA. Bolo's a prime example. she is RABIDLY dog aggressive..and yet because i ask it of her, she doesnt act on it anymore. 



> I don't know if driving off coyotes is a valid reason for being DA, though. Coyotes aren't dogs, and this sort of thing could be a product of protectiveness without needing to express aggression towards other dogs. Just like a dog can be protective and drive off a dangerous human without needing to be HA.


its not a reason..i was just recounting an instance where DA came in handy. the dog in question is DA, i was there during the incident. i work with DA dogs quite a bit and i know a severe DA reaction when i see it. 

abroad in certain places, ive heard talk of the idea of breeding pit bulls for predator control in certain rural areas. DA would be useful for this because of how the DA that is predominately genetic likely works(modified predatory fixed action pattern...similar to a border collie but with a different focus) the idea would be to take a bunch of high prey drive DA dogs and through selective breeding, ever so slightly modify the behavior...instead of starting with cold dogs and trying to breed a natural aversion and response to threatening predators.



Nargle said:


> For one, it's extremely difficult to live with such a dog. I used to help take care of an Australian Shepherd that was extremely DA. I could barely walk her, she couldn't go to the vet without there being absolute chaos, and she was just in general very unhappy. Luckily she was an only dog, but if she was living with several other dogs (Like a breeder's situation) then it would have been horrible for her. She would have to be crated/secluded for a significant portion of her day, and it would be very difficult to supply her with all of the human attention, mental stimulation and exercise she needs.
> 
> Second, the stress of absolutely flying off the handle every time another dog comes within her view must have been extremely stressful. It was like she was having a panic attack, and I certainly believe that dogs with extreme DA suffer from mental instability and anxiety. I would never dream of breeding my SA dog for fear of producing more dogs with a dramatically decreased quality of life due to anxiety.


this dog was not properly managed. not bashing your handling skills but it definately doesnt sound like her needs were met at all. DA dogs are just higher maintenance than most. 

before Bolo got cancer, she ran with me 7 miles a day with me on rollerskates and her pulling. just getting to run that fast..she didnt even notice other dogs. when we got home we'd train, then flirtpole, then springpole, then she got to play in the sandbox then we'd go inside and work on fun tricks and useful behaviors that i taught her to help me manage the house. vet visits were a non issue by way of careful schedualing...yeah...they're just higher maintenance...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Nargle said:


> For one, it's extremely difficult to live with such a dog. I used to help take care of an Australian Shepherd that was extremely DA. I could barely walk her, she couldn't go to the vet without there being absolute chaos, and she was just in general very unhappy. Luckily she was an only dog, but if she was living with several other dogs (Like a breeder's situation) then it would have been horrible for her. She would have to be crated/secluded for a significant portion of her day, and it would be very difficult to supply her with all of the human attention, mental stimulation and exercise she needs.
> 
> Second, the stress of absolutely flying off the handle every time another dog comes within her view must have been extremely stressful. It was like she was having a panic attack, and I certainly believe that dogs with extreme DA suffer from mental instability and anxiety. I would never dream of breeding my SA dog for fear of producing more dogs with a dramatically decreased quality of life due to anxiety.


Maybe I count less because Jonas is quite small, but he's crazy DA. There is never an option of a dog getting close to him because he will hit them with a face bite. No warning, but a bite. But before we got it managed (he has been rushed face to face with several dogs since our work and has immediately returned to me without biting) he would go nuts just seeing another dog. I can't say it was particularly stressful for me to accept he doesn't like other dogs and I'm proud of how far he's come.

He is fine with our dogs save for Magpie, but he is not outwardly aggressive towards her. If she gets TOO in his face he will growl at her and retreat. He is also totally cool with a VERY small number of dogs, which means one Dachshund, one Pit, and an American Bulldog. Could not tell you why.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

That's an American bully NOT an American pit bull terrier.



Inga said:


> My mind is still spinning from reading this whole thread. One question comes to mind. I wonder how many of you "true Pit Bull" fans would like to see dog aggression bred out of the Pit Bull.


 When you breed Da out of the Apbt you get an Amstaff.
Breed for the total dog. Breeders shouldn't be breeding for DA, but they shouldn't be trying to breed it out.
The animal being DA is part of what makes the apbt an apbt, granted not every apbt is DA, but the da is what gave it it's drive just like a border collie herding is part of what gives the border collie it's drive....
if you take the da out of a apbt you loose part of what makes it an apbt and what you're left with is an amstaff/ambully,the amstaff which was bred away from the apbt 70 yrs ago to get away from the DA.
And now look at what you have, a totally new breed the ast has a bigger head,chest,and all around body than the apbt. The drive and determination of the dogs has dropped dramatically..Not that the dog doesn't have drive, it certainty does, but nothing compared to the apbt. And the ambully, another attempt to remove the da and get a less energetic dog...And now you have a large abundance of dogs bred from this with unstable HA problems, no ability to move, and a whole bunch of health problems (though this is not true for responsibly bred ambulles) but the ambully also lacks the drive, the determination, and the willingness to please that the apbt does have.

if you dont like da dont get a apbt. Just like if you dont like hunting dont get a beagle, but don't try to take that tracking drive out of the beagle, because than the dog you're left with is no longer a beagle.

'moving the dog's aggression, you also run the risk of losing the famed tenacity held by many of these ex-fighter breeds.

And THAT is certainly something they can't afford to lose. Take "catch" dogs in hog hunting for example... this is an animal that has to charge after a live boar and grip it down for the hunter. This is not the job for a "soft" animal. It takes tenacity, aggression, fearlessness, grit.

Can they still have these things without breeding for DA? Sure they could. Can they completely eliminate the DA without affecting those traits?

I can't say they can'


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## rippedcb (Jun 3, 2010)

> When you breed Da out of the Apbt you get an Amstaff.
> Breed for the total dog. Breeders shouldn't be breeding for DA, but they shouldn't be trying to breed it out.
> The animal being DA is part of what makes the apbt an apbt, granted not every apbt is DA, but the da is what gave it it's drive just like a border collie herding is part of what gives the border collie it's drive....
> if you take the da out of a apbt you loose part of what makes it an apbt and what you're left with is an amstaff/ambully,the amstaff which was bred away from the apbt 70 yrs ago to get away from the DA.
> ...


Very well said.. i agree with you 100%


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## JohnHouse (Jun 17, 2010)

Looks like a dog that would be featured in this magazine:

http://www.atomicdoggmagazine.com/

And yes, that is the dog magazine that Shorty from Pit Boss was featured in last year.

(EDIT) Oh dear G-d, the tards on this page. Particularly the "FirstclassBully Kennel" comment that says "‎;-) she is a young mother of 13 puppys since 3 month". -_- Such classy people, too...particularly the kids.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Adjecyca1 said:


> That's an American bully NOT an American pit bull terrier.
> 
> 
> When you breed Da out of the Apbt you get an Amstaff.
> ...


DA sucks. Breeders who do not try to breed out DA suck even more, regardless of their retarded justifications. Breeders of DA dogs should be held financially and even criminally responsible for every ruined life they cause, both of their dogs and the countless other dogs injured by them.

DA pits are often time bombs. Cute, happy, wonderful puppies who at around 2 suddenly start attacking other dogs. They go to the pound as unadoptable and get put down while the dogs they injured end up becoming fearful and withdrawn for the rest of their lives. 

If breeding DA out of pits means the end of the std. pit bull, then good riddance to them and the idiots who intentionally breed DA dogs.

Oh, and did I mention that the intentional breeding of DA dogs is a perfectly legitimate reason for governments to label them a vicious (because that's what they are) and restrict their ownership.


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## rippedcb (Jun 3, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> DA sucks. Breeders who do not try to breed out DA suck even more, regardless of their retarded justifications. Breeders of DA dogs should be held financially and even criminally responsible for every ruined life they cause, both of their dogs and the countless other dogs injured by them.
> 
> DA pits are often time bombs. Cute, happy, wonderful puppies who at around 2 suddenly start attacking other dogs. They go to the pound as unadoptable and get put down while the dogs they injured end up becoming fearful and withdrawn for the rest of their lives.
> 
> ...


Do you have any idea what you are talking about? It appears to me that you are just talking out of your @$s. You have no idea, no experience no knowledge of the breed yet you are calling the breeders who have been breeding this breed for decades "retards". I think you forgot to take your lithium today.. maybe?? 

Your comments make no sense and if you are going to say something, pls have some knowledge about the subject first. Time to buy another keyboard from ebay my friend..


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Wow Kasey, just wow. Your overgeneralizing is going to get you in trouble because your promoting a stereotype and seem to be trying to cause an argument.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I wonder how Kasey feels about guardian breeds who are specifically bred to have some level of animal/human intolerance. Who says you get to make the rules about breeding? Should we pretty much extinguish the entire Terrier and Working groups because many of those breeds have such qualities?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

MissMutt said:


> I wonder how Kasey feels about guardian breeds who are specifically bred to have some level of animal/human intolerance. Who says you get to make the rules about breeding? Should we pretty much extinguish the entire Terrier and Working groups because many of those breeds have such qualities?


I know, I guess my breeder should have quite breeding for the Working ability of her Dobes as well since it is based on Human aggression (all be it under control and only toward those the owner directs it to). Lets not forget the Fila Brasilerio who even in their home country is requirred to wear a muzzle in public becasue they are specifically bred to be human aggressive for gaurdian work. 

The fact of the matter is if it's a working/hunting breed it's abilities are based on PREY DRIVE aggression forms, I don't care of it's a Pit, Dobe or Austrailian Sheperd. The key is training to direct and CONTROL the drive.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I also think that sometimes people get a little hysterical about the DA in Pits thing.. not all Pits are DA. I feel like the main difference between a Pit and another dog is that if a fight is started, a Pit can/will do more damage than the majority of dogs. I think it's important that people know about and prepare for the dog aggression side of the Pit Bull because of how gamey and tenacious they are as a breed, but that also doesn't mean that just because you have one, it's going to grow up to be DA. 

And there is also a HUGE difference between a DA Pit being at a dog park, and, say, a DA Pit being at a weight pull show, under control, conditioned behaviorally so that he does not act on that DA, etc. Responsible ownership far transcends ANY temperament of ANY dog.. which makes education so much more important than any stupid, overbearing piece of legislation I can think of.


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## rippedcb (Jun 3, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> I know, I guess my breeder should have quite breeding for the Working ability of her Dobes as well since it is based on Human aggression (all be it under control and only toward those the owner directs it to). Lets not forget the Fila Brasilerio who even in their home country is requirred to wear a muzzle in public becasue they are specifically bred to be human aggressive for gaurdian work.
> 
> The fact of the matter is if it's a working/hunting breed it's abilities are based on PREY DRIVE aggression forms, I don't care of it's a Pit, Dobe or Austrailian Sheperd. The key is training to direct and CONTROL the drive.


Exactly, perfectly said... noone ever said that pits are for everyone. The fact is no one breed is perfect for everyone. Everyone has different needs and preferences. The challenge is matching the right dog to the right person.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I wonder how Kasey feels about guardian breeds who are specifically bred to have some level of animal/human intolerance. Who says you get to make the rules about breeding? Should we pretty much extinguish the entire Terrier and Working groups because many of those breeds have such qualities?


S/he doesn't feel any thing about any thing. Kasey is either REALLY that ignorant, or enjoys baiting the board to polarize a thread. Either way, every post s/he makes like that is asinine.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> Breeders who do not try to breed out DA suck even more, regardless of their retarded justifications.
> 
> 
> .


I wish I could type out what I think of people who use that term but it wouldn't be nice. Carry on.


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

I think pitbulls are not that bad. For some they may be since they thought that they are terrible looking and used as a fighting toll inside the ring but not all pits can be dangerous. This is so because there are some pits who are show type and others fighting types.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

JeanieStecher said:


> I think pitbulls are not that bad. For some they may be since they thought that they are terrible looking and used as a fighting toll inside the ring but not all pits can be dangerous. This is so because there are some pits who are show type and others fighting types.


???????? lol whut?


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ???????? lol whut?


You took the words right out of my mouth...

I think Jeanie thinks Fighting Pits = dangerous Pits which isn't the case. If it's a true fighting Pit, then that dog is of value and isn't going to have a chance to escape yards and go after someone's pet. The issue of dangerous dogs of ALL breeds come from owners not giving the dogs the right amount of socialization, mental simulation, and exercise so the dogs end up being frustrated and highly reactive. Put a high prey drive with that reactivity and it's an accident waiting to happen. There are 2 dogs on my walk that I am scared to death of. One is a Black Lab/Pit mix who has come after Nubs once before (broke through a window to get to us) but was easily chased off once it realized that I was there (I don't think that dog has ever seen outside of it's yard), and then a Golden who is only in a very very small yard who goes into a high drive kill mode whenever someone passes it's yard (again, is never out for a walk and never leave the house or yard).

Fighting dogs should be the least of your worries. Dogs that aren't walked, left inside their yards or tied up in their yards without much human interaction are the dogs to be scared of. Show dogs have nothing to do with dangerous dogs or now (Had a show bulldog break out of its crate at one show and grab a hold of a Pit Bull who was in another crate. Luckily the owners were right there, that show dog could have killed that Pit if they weren't there to break it up)


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> I wonder how Kasey feels about guardian breeds who are specifically bred to have some level of animal/human intolerance. Who says you get to make the rules about breeding? Should we pretty much extinguish the entire Terrier and Working groups because many of those breeds have such qualities?


My personal opinion is that no matter how aggressive a breed is, dogs should not be used for fighting, period. Be it dog on dog, dog on animal, or dog on human. It's one thing to train a dog to do Schutzhund, or to have your dog bark or look imposing to keep people/things away, where there's no real danger involved, but a completely different thing to risk a dog's life for selfish reasons. Most people here would agree that dog fighting is horrific and barbaric, but I have no idea why people think it's okay to use a dog as personal protection or to get rid of nuisance animals. A dead or maimed dog is a dead or maimed dog, no matter if the injuries were caused by fighting dogs, intruders, or wild animals. You want protection? Get an alarm system for your home and carry a taser or pepper spray. You want to get rid of pests, put out some traps. That's my $0.02.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That wasn't really the question I was asking - just because I'm OK with breeds having dog aggressive tendencies doesn't mean I'm supportive of dog fighting. I obviously despise anything of the sort, so I think that's a bit of a stretch. I have always stressed proper maintenance and management of animal-aggressive breeds, be it due to human intolerance, dog intolerance, animals intolerance/prey drive, etc. My point was that breeds that are not your every day warm and fuzzy happy puppy breeds can be kept responsibly.

But, since you brought this up.. what about livestock guardian dogs? Their job is extremely dangerous, yet the majority of Ovcharka-like dogs would NOT be happy in the house. Those are dogs who have been bred and used for hundreds of years in the fields guarding flocks from other dogs, wild animals, maybe even people. Methinks it would take an awful lot of farmers to patrol a herd of sheep or cattle. Is that what you propose they do instead of use dogs?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> That wasn't really the question I was asking - just because I'm OK with breeds having dog aggressive tendencies doesn't mean I'm supportive of dog fighting. I obviously despise anything of the sort, so I think that's a bit of a stretch. I have always stressed proper maintenance and management of animal-aggressive breeds, be it due to human intolerance, dog intolerance, animals intolerance/prey drive, etc. My point was that breeds that are not your every day warm and fuzzy happy puppy breeds can be kept responsibly.



they can, they are and frankly..i dont want those breeds to change. because honestly...the happy fuzzy puppy breeds are by far and large my LEAST favorite dogs. i generally dislike poodles, all forms of retrievers, most spaniels and setters and a significant cross section of toy dogs.


i want my strong willed, pedal to the metal Pits, Dobes, Filas, Dogos, Patterdales, Houlas, Malis, Tosa and so forth. id probably never own a dog again if you took their drive from those breeds. i KNOW id never own a dog again if pit bulls died out or ceased to exist in the true form.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm with ya, Zim - there are a few stereotypical warm and fuzzy breeds that I do like, but I generally like drivey dogs, too. To have all dog breeds have the exact same temperament would totally defeat the purpose of creating separate breeds to fit different individuals' wants and needs.

(PS - I've started looking over some Dobe stuff - just been a bit busy lately, but definitely haven't forgotten about you and your offer!)


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> they can, they are and frankly..i dont want those breeds to change. because honestly...the happy fuzzy puppy breeds are by far and large my LEAST favorite dogs. i generally dislike *poodles, all forms of retrievers, most spaniels and setters* and a significant cross section of toy dogs.


 All of which are Sporting (as in hunting ) dogs, not lap dogs by any means and many Toy breeds come from small animal hunting dogs. Just because they have been bred to be 'softer' in temperament doesn't make what they were bred to do any less a part of the NATURAL prey drive. 

As far as Human and animal protection dogs and hunting (as in game take down) dogs, I have no problem with using them for what they were bred for, then again I have no problem with hunting as long as it's not strictly done for sport (IOW the animal used for food) or with using the dogs instincts and senses for protection of life and property. I see Military working dogs and their handlers EAGERLY doing thier jobs (they train in the athletic field behind my house). If an Ochavra or a Pyr are happy in a feild of sheep keeping the Wolves away or a Bloodhound or Fila is tracking down and cornering a convicted criminal or a team of Plott's and American Bulldogge's are hunting pig who's to say that's cruel? It's FAR different than Dog fighting as it's NOT being done for sport. Now if you were talking about putting these dogs in an arena and turning them on each other/ a wild animal or human for the pure enjoyment of watching something die (as they did in Rome), it's very different.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Some of these posts are mind boggling.... I can't imagine being without many of these breeds of dogs whom some to want to destroy.
Certain breeds aren't used they way they originally were years ago or what they were originally intended for but many still seek out a dog with drives, with protection abilities, with terrier like tenacity. 
I am a huge fan of GSDs, Rotties, and Dobermans. I like them all but tend to always lean toward a true 'working' dog. One with drives, rock steady nerves, and a willingness to work all day long. When my children are older and I have more time on my hands I plan on sharing my life with one of these highly driven dogs. I hope to do schutzhund with that dog. 
When we do away with the drives of a breed and their purpose we lose the breed I believe. I don't want a GSD whom has a Golden Retriever temperment (not knocking Goldens). I want a GSD because I fell in love with the breed for their temperment and drives. This doesn't mean I want a crazy man biter. I want a stable dog with a bomb proof temperment. Nothing phased my last GSD but she wasn't what most would call a 'friendly' dog either. 
There are breeds whom were bred intentionally to be companions and those whom were bred to work. Just because you like dogs whom sole purpose is to be companions doesn't mean others don't appreciate and like dogs that have drive.


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

Adjecyca1 said:


> When you breed Da out of the Apbt you get an Amstaff.



Really? Huh. Curious, how much time have you actually spent with AmStafs? Like, for example, old school Ruffian, X-Pert, and Tacoma bloodlines?

This whole chest thumping "APBT GOOD REAL DOG but AmStaf fluffy stuffed dog with no personality or drive" crap gets not only tiresome, it shows that you have very little actual experience with the breed.



GSD said:


> Oh she had it on her site that she took two pups from a raid and put them down because of dog aggression. Yes not selling pups is a good point I suppose just hate when people go gaga over her because she really isnt all that she should be helping these dogmen who have not done anything wrong since the sport was banned instead she cant wait to get her hands on their dogs that is sad to me. Also another note is that any pit bull owner should despise the HSUS they are out to get our dogs and are not Humane at all when it comes to pit bulls. Diane works for them/with them and that alones makes her an enemy too



Honestly, the dogmen should be helping THEMSELVES by not being puppymills that sell to anybody with the cash. How about doing a better job of screening their puppy buyers? Then I wouldn't be seeing gamebred dogs directly off their yards in dog parks, nor would they be getting busted for selling dogs to people who intend to use them for illegal purposes. 

Quite a concept, eh?



GSD said:


> Please dont look up to Diane she is a fake, she has placed an unstable, horrid conformation dog into a home that should never have been placed. SHe has stolen dog from dog raids and put down puppies for being dog aggressive which you would have to assume since she got them from a well know dogman whose lines are old school she is not worth your admiration.



I know Diane personally and have trained with her. She has some really nice dogs. Dirk in particular is one of my favorite APBTs ever. But, yes, her breeding practices leave something to be desired. Her first breeding to Dirk was to a rescue dog of unknown origin. Most of her current dogs are down from that breeding, bred back to Dirk for many generations. She did co-breed one litter with a good friend, which ended up turning out REALLY badly for my friend. 

Diane is interesting, but I don't trust her a bit.



Inga said:


> My mind is still spinning from reading this whole thread. One question comes to mind. I wonder how many of you "true Pit Bull" fans would like to see dog aggression bred out of the Pit Bull. What if the dog could still have all of the love for humans, energy, working drive, athletic ability that they do now but no or at least a whole lot less dog aggression? Would you promote that type of breeding or would you say "It isn't true to the breed?"



One problem is that "dog aggression" is so vague. In many dogs, DA is insecure reactivity, and the dog lashes out in defense. Some of them are just plain fight crazy. I don't think that either of those are good traits. There is no room for fear in this breed, nor is there room for dogs that have uncontrollable aggression.

I think that a good deal of dog aggressive dogs in this breed are just dogs that nobody has demanded manners from. When I'm at an ADBA show, I wonder how many of those dogs have owners that haven't even bothered to teach their dogs how to behave in public? Even gamebred dogs can be taught how to behave in an acceptable manner. I've had and have dog aggressive dogs, and mine don't behave like that in public. I won't allow it. 

I'm not asking for dogs to take to the dog park. But if a dog isn't clear headed enough to be able to be trained to ignore other dogs to the point of perhaps attaining a CD or CGC, I think that dog should be considered a poor choice for breeding.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> All of which are Sporting (as in hunting ) dogs, not lap dogs by any means and many Toy breeds come from small animal hunting dogs. Just because they have been bred to be 'softer' in temperament doesn't make what they were bred to do any less a part of the NATURAL prey drive.


i know that Carla. their natural temperaments are generally annoying. that's all. ive found one or two exceptions but im not a fan of sporting dogs. i dont favor their looks, i dont favor the temperament and i want a dog with a certain......pizazz..that i have yet to see in those breeds..despite them being everywhere. when i group them with the "happy fluffy puppy" ness...its because they're everywhere. everybody has them. and i think ive met maybe...5 out of hundreds that i would consider owning. its fine if other people have them. i just dont prefer them.


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> i know that Carla. their natural temperaments are generally annoying. that's all. ive found one or two exceptions but im not a fan of sporting dogs. i dont favor their looks, i dont favor the temperament and i want a dog with a certain......pizazz..that i have yet to see in those breeds..despite them being everywhere. when i group them with the "happy fluffy puppy" ness...its because they're everywhere. everybody has them. and i think ive met maybe...5 out of hundreds that i would consider owning. its fine if other people have them. i just dont prefer them.



I think that it's your delivery that comes off poorly. How can you not think that sporting dogs have pizazz? Have you ever hunted behind a Chessie or Vizsla? The retriever guys probably think that the APBTs are worthless because they wouldn't last in a frozen lake with no coat or body fat. I think that it's pretty rude to say that you don't like a dog that doesn't "have drive" just because it's not the drive that you find useful. I mean, this guy would look at your dog and might wonder why you even bother feeding it.

I used to be a member of both a French/Mondio Ring & PP club as well as a Schutzhund club. The Ring club was full of guys who liked REAL dogs that would work in a civil manner, and kick butt on the field as well as take down a would be assailant. They LOVED my Malinois, but didn't remotely see the appeal of my AmStaf. The SchH club OTOH mostly consisted of people with Rotties, APBTs, and West German Show GSDs. They prefered a sporty dog that wasn't likely to ever take a live bite. They thought my AmStaf was awesome, but were half convinced that my Malinois was going to kill and eat me in my sleep.

Different strokes for different folks.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> That wasn't really the question I was asking - just because I'm OK with breeds having dog aggressive tendencies doesn't mean I'm supportive of dog fighting. I obviously despise anything of the sort, so I think that's a bit of a stretch. I have always stressed proper maintenance and management of animal-aggressive breeds, be it due to human intolerance, dog intolerance, animals intolerance/prey drive, etc. My point was that breeds that are not your every day warm and fuzzy happy puppy breeds can be kept responsibly.
> 
> But, since you brought this up.. what about livestock guardian dogs? Their job is extremely dangerous, yet the majority of Ovcharka-like dogs would NOT be happy in the house. Those are dogs who have been bred and used for hundreds of years in the fields guarding flocks from other dogs, wild animals, maybe even people. Methinks it would take an awful lot of farmers to patrol a herd of sheep or cattle. Is that what you propose they do instead of use dogs?


I wasn't accusing your of supporting dog fighting. I was addressing the fact that many people hypocritically allow fighting in situations other than dog on dog when it's equally despicable. I do not believe that dogs should be used for fighting or be put at risk of violence in ANY way. This is how I feel about these breeds of dogs: your original question.

I do not agree with the use of livestock guardian breeds that were bred and are used to attack and fight off wildlife. A CO may not be happy in a house, but I doubt they're happy while they're being mauled by a large wild animal. There are plenty of ways to protect livestock: fences, barbed wire, electric fences, flood lights, traps, certain scents, etc. If a farmer is using a large imposing looking dog to bark at wild animals from behind a secure fence where they are SAFE, that's different. But if you stick a LGD on your farm without keeping them safe and with the knowledge that they're going to need to fight off a wild animal, that's just as bad as using your dog to fight other dogs. 

That does not mean that I believe that these breeds should die out. They just should not be used in such a way that is cruel. The APBT didn't die out when dog fighting was made illegal. 



cshellenberger said:


> All of which are Sporting (as in hunting ) dogs, not lap dogs by any means and many Toy breeds come from small animal hunting dogs. Just because they have been bred to be 'softer' in temperament doesn't make what they were bred to do any less a part of the NATURAL prey drive.
> 
> As far as Human and animal protection dogs and hunting (as in game take down) dogs, I have no problem with using them for what they were bred for, then again I have no problem with hunting as long as it's not strictly done for sport (IOW the animal used for food) or with using the dogs instincts and senses for protection of life and property. I see Military working dogs and their handlers EAGERLY doing thier jobs (they train in the athletic field behind my house). If an Ochavra or a Pyr are happy in a feild of sheep keeping the Wolves away or a Bloodhound or Fila is tracking down and cornering a convicted criminal or a team of Plott's and American Bulldogge's are hunting pig who's to say that's cruel? It's FAR different than Dog fighting as it's NOT being done for sport. Now if you were talking about putting these dogs in an arena and turning them on each other/ a wild animal or human for the pure enjoyment of watching something die (as they did in Rome), it's very different.


They way you justify cruelty is mind boggling. So, if a dog is being maimed or killed in a forest it's perfectly fine, but if the same dog in the same situation is in an arena it's sick and cruel? If someone's allowing their dog to be attacked and wounded and they don't enjoy watching it, it's okay, but if he's entertained by it it's suddenly wrong? I don't see how what the human feels about the situation, or whether or not it's a sport, is a factor AT ALL about what's cruel and what isn't. A suffering/dead dog is a suffering/dead dog!! Who cares if the human gets a meal that night vs. being entertained? Does a human's intention make a dog's wounds any less painful? The fact of the matter is, it's CRUEL! And there's NO reason for dogs to be used in such ways, especially with the technology we have today!! 

If anything, I would RATHER a dog be used for sports such as Schutzhund or crawling through tunnels to find a caged rat, etc. Where they're SAFE. There's no need to endanger a dog's life for your meal or for your protection as there are so many other resources available that aren't cruel.


Also, I'd like to mention just in general that *a dog CAN still have drive and working ability without being aggressive. *There are plenty of breeds that have proven this. Saying that if a dog isn't aggressive it ruins the breed and turns them into big soft teddy bears is crazy talk.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Also, I'd like to mention just in general that *a dog CAN still have drive and working ability without being aggressive. *There are plenty of breeds that have proven this. Saying that if a dog isn't aggressive it ruins the breed and turns them into big soft teddy bears is crazy talk.


you arent understanding what i mean. there's aggression and then there's other aggression. WE DONT KNOW what portion of it is inherant genetically. the "aggression" itself is likely NOT one single genetic factor. to simply not breed a dog simply because it appears to be aggressive is NOT smart. its far more complicated than that. if i have a dog with a really bold and pushy personality that pisses other dogs off..and results in fights? that qualifies as aggression. but a bold and pushy personality can also be an asset in that you get a dog that isnt phased by things other dogs might be phased by.

its EXTREMELY shortsighted to cull(by speuter) simply because dogs display aggressive behavior. aggression is always..ALWAYS a symptom of something else and that something else is NOT ALWAYS a bad thing.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I want to know if Mia counts as a 'happy fluffy puppy' lol. She has more drive than all my past dogs combined- no lie. She also is cute and looks like a fluffy puppy. Right now she's not very happy with me though. 

I too would be sad if we lost a lot of the drives in breeds. It's important to remember that pit bulls aren't the only breed to have DA. It is common in many many different breeds. I grew up with herders and while they're not typically DA, they can be very reactive animals. They are also typically not very stranger friendly. But that's actually something I LIKE. I would not be happy with a lab (already had one so I know) or a similar breed. 

My next dog I'm already on the search for. It's going to be a very high octane animal with more drive than 99% of people will want. But that's what I want and they're a very great breed, vastly more versatile than most your average dogs. The drive makes them more challenging to live with but it is also what makes them so incredible at everything. I have puppy want so bad. 

Honestly other than paps I wouldn't own any of the companion/sporting type dogs most likely. Paps are a little unique though since they're sporting/spitz type dogs so their temperament is totally not like any other sporting breed I've met.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I want to know if Mia counts as a 'happy fluffy puppy' lol. She has more drive than all my past dogs combined- no lie. She also is cute and looks like a fluffy puppy. Right now she's not very happy with me though.
> 
> I too would be sad if we lost a lot of the drives in breeds. It's important to remember that pit bulls aren't the only breed to have DA. It is common in many many different breeds. I grew up with herders and while they're not typically DA, they can be very reactive animals. They are also typically not very stranger friendly. But that's actually something I LIKE. I would not be happy with a lab (already had one so I know) or a similar breed.
> 
> ...


no Mia just forgot she was supposed to be born a pibble. 

seriously its just that sporting breeds have certain tendancies that arent compatible with me at all. i like them ok..as other people's dogs lol. i dont hate them. just not really a kind of dog that i want to own..


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think if you're not involved in working breeds very much it's hard to understand. I am not involved in one -yet- but I've been researching for years and am finally starting my puppy search although it'll be a year or so still. These dogs are all about balancing some extreme drives. I don't know too much about pit bulls but in border collies you're dealing with a dog that is made up of extremes. Focusing too much on one single aspect of the dog will without a doubt throw the dog out of balance.

As far as certain work being very dangerous, it is. Stock work can be very dangerous, especially 'real world' work compared to arena trials. I watched a cow charge a man once and his rottie turned and took the cow head on. Dogs do get hurt doing this kind of work too even though most people think of stockwork as simply running sheep around a ring. Real stock work is much less controlled. It is something my next dog will hopefully do though regardless of danger. It's what they were bred to do and I think they SHOULD do. I will do my best to keep him/her safe as possible but there are no guarantees.

Heck, FLYBALL is probably one of the most dangerous activities you could get your dog into. The injury rate in flyball is astounding compared to other sports. Most competitive flyball dogs HAVE to go to the chiropractor after each tournament. They have the shortest careers of any canine athletes. It breaks their joints down very fast. Anything you could possibly do is dangerous to some extent. Livestock guards are still a necessity. Fences don't keep out everything and the amount of $$$ it would take to build a completely coyote or cougar proof fence is pretty impossible. Where I live for stock guardians they use donkeys most but sometimes pyrs or anatolians, but even then you NEED that animal that has the balls to run off something. If you don't you WILL lose your living. I don't know if you've ever lived in a place that is pretty much infested with coyotes. Pet dogs and livestock disappear all the time around where I live. Guardian animals are absolutely without a doubt needed.

We will not keep these breeds though without WORKING them. And work of any kind is not without some element of danger. 

Also wanted to point out a lot of the old pit dogs were not entirely DA. Some lived in houses with other dogs just fine. They relied mostly on grit and will to win fights. Tenacity or 'gameness', not just DA. Even if your dog was DA, it was no guarantee it was a good fighter. 



> no Mia just forgot she was supposed to be born a pibble.
> 
> seriously its just that sporting breeds have certain tendancies that arent compatible with me at all. i like them ok..as other people's dogs lol. i dont hate them. just not really a kind of dog that i want to own..


I'm pretty sure Mia was supposed to be a JRT. I've had so many JRT people tell me she acts just like one. She couldn't be a pit bull, she doesn't love people lol. 

I totally understand what you mean though. I was just playing with you.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I think if you're not involved in working breeds very much it's hard to understand. I am not involved in one -yet- but I've been researching for years and am finally starting my puppy search although it'll be a year or so still. These dogs are all about balancing some extreme drives. I don't know too much about pit bulls but in border collies you're dealing with a dog that is made up of extremes. Focusing too much on one single aspect of the dog will without a doubt throw the dog out of balance


.

yeah..focusing too much on one aspect that is not really genetically understood has the issue of things like epistasis, various genetic linkages etc. i could try to breed out da and end up with a dog with no natural immunity(just pulled that one out of thin air but its not impossible). 



> As far as certain work being very dangerous, it is. Stock work can be very dangerous, especially 'real world' work compared to arena trials. I watched a cow charge a man once and his rottie turned and took the cow head on. Dogs do get hurt doing this kind of work too even though most people think of stockwork as simply running sheep around a ring. Real stock work is much less controlled. It is something my next dog will hopefully do though regardless of danger. It's what they were bred to do and I think they SHOULD do. I will do my best to keep him/her safe as possible but there are no guarantees.
> 
> Heck, FLYBALL is probably one of the most dangerous activities you could get your dog into. The injury rate in flyball is astounding compared to other sports. Most competitive flyball dogs HAVE to go to the chiropractor after each tournament. They have the shortest careers of any canine athletes. It breaks their joints down very fast. Anything you could possibly do is dangerous to some extent. Livestock guards are still a necessity. Fences don't keep out everything and the amount of $$$ it would take to build a completely coyote or cougar proof fence is pretty impossible. Where I live for stock guardians they use donkeys most but sometimes pyrs or anatolians, but even then you NEED that animal that has the balls to run off something. If you don't you WILL lose your living. I don't know if you've ever lived in a place that is pretty much infested with coyotes. Dogs and livestock disappear all the time around where I live. Guardian animals are absolutely without a doubt needed.
> 
> We will not keep these breeds though without WORKING them.


there are working dog people and there are pet dog people. then there are in betweenies. and they all duke it out over this particular subject. i feel like coddling dogs and never letting them get out and do things that suit them...is a disservice. some dogs are better suited to take chances and are happier overall when they get to do so. SAR work is dangerous. aint stopping me or my future dogs..



> Also wanted to point out a lot of the old pit dogs were not entirely DA. Some lived in houses with other dogs just fine. They relied mostly on grit and will to win fights. Tenacity or 'gameness', not just DA. Even if your dog was DA, it was no guarantee it was a good fighter.


laurelin is correct.



> I'm pretty sure Mia was supposed to be a JRT. I've had so many JRT people tell me she acts just like one. She couldn't be a pit bull, she doesn't love people lol.
> 
> I totally understand what you mean though. I was just playing with you.


the pibble thing was a compliment lol.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> there are working dog people and there are pet dog people. then there are in betweenies. and they all duke it out over this particular subject. i feel like coddling dogs and never letting them get out and do things that suit them...is a disservice. some dogs are better suited to take chances and are happier overall when they get to do so. SAR work is dangerous. aint stopping me or my future dogs..


I'm definitely an inbetweener and likely will always be. My dogs are companions and my next dog will be a companion, but I am very interested in dogsports. The more I learn about border collies, the more I realize how many people still rely on dogs to earn their living or keep up their lifestyle. It is a different mindset than the coddled pet, but it is not 'wrong'. 

Most border collie people also have stock guards as well. And they rely on these stock guards just as much as they do their collies to maintain their flocks. They do care about these dogs and respect them immensely, but they are not pets. 

My next dog I hope to do a lot with- stockdog, agility, dock dog, and probably more. I will balance as best I can, the dog's safety all the while allowing him appropriate outlets for his drives. To do less and try to keep a real working breed is a disservice, I agree.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Nargle said:


> I wasn't accusing your of supporting dog fighting. I was addressing the fact that many people hypocritically allow fighting in situations other than dog on dog when it's equally despicable. I do not believe that dogs should be used for fighting or be put at risk of violence in ANY way. This is how I feel about these breeds of dogs: your original question.
> 
> I do not agree with the use of livestock guardian breeds that were bred and are used to attack and fight off wildlife. A CO may not be happy in a house, but I doubt they're happy while they're being mauled by a large wild animal. There are plenty of ways to protect livestock: fences, barbed wire, electric fences, flood lights, traps, certain scents, etc. If a farmer is using a large imposing looking dog to bark at wild animals from behind a secure fence where they are SAFE, that's different. But if you stick a LGD on your farm without keeping them safe and with the knowledge that they're going to need to fight off a wild animal, that's just as bad as using your dog to fight other dogs.
> 
> ...


 
They are jobs that are done wit hdogs because they can't be done EFFECTIVLY any other way, Bomb sniffing dogs save lives, as do police and military take down dogs S&R dogs find people who are lost or stranded and Cadaver dogs find those we've lost so their families can put them to rest, they are viewed as PARTNERS of the handler, not 'just dogs' but as OFFICERS be it in a city setting, on post/base or the mountains of Afganistan. 

As far as Flock protection, no I don't have problem with it as often the dogs are the most effective way to protect the flock of livestock in question, yes they can be killed however it would take a lot of man power to do the same job, which in many places would make it very hard fo the owner of the flock to continue his business it's an ancient job (most likely the second oldest) that dogs have done and the reason we have SOOO many of these breeds worldwide.

Now to address Dogs as hunting partners, this is most likely the OLDEST job of dogs, it's WHY they were domesticated in the first place. Helping mankind to find food and keep from starving. I don't care of it's a Retriever, A pointer, a Plott or an AmBull they are alll valid jobs for dogs. Yes again the job is dangerous, again most who use them to hunt value the dogs HIGHLY and work to make sure the dog isn't hurt. It's not like they pit only one or two dogs against an animal, it's most likey a pack of them and they 'occupy' the animal so the hunter can make the kill. There's nothing cruel about it.

edited to add: To me it's like equating horseback riding to the 'sport' of Bronc Busting (as a rodeo sport), it doesn't make sense. Working animals in what they were originally designed to do isn't the equivelent of fighting.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

stafinois said:


> I think that it's your delivery that comes off poorly. How can you not think that sporting dogs have pizazz? Have you ever hunted behind a Chessie or Vizsla? The retriever guys probably think that the APBTs are worthless because they wouldn't last in a frozen lake with no coat or body fat. I think that it's pretty rude to say that you don't like a dog that doesn't "have drive" just because it's not the drive that you find useful. I mean, this guy would look at your dog and might wonder why you even bother feeding it.
> 
> I used to be a member of both a French/Mondio Ring & PP club as well as a Schutzhund club. The Ring club was full of guys who liked REAL dogs that would work in a civil manner, and kick butt on the field as well as take down a would be assailant. They LOVED my Malinois, but didn't remotely see the appeal of my AmStaf. The SchH club OTOH mostly consisted of people with Rotties, APBTs, and West German Show GSDs. They prefered a sporty dog that wasn't likely to ever take a live bite. They thought my AmStaf was awesome, but were half convinced that my Malinois was going to kill and eat me in my sleep.
> 
> Different strokes for different folks.


i dont think they have pizazz because i dont. i dont tend to like them at all. the type of personality they tend towards...just doesnt suit me...the..i iguess you could call it "quality of energy" doesnt suit me. that's not a knock against the dogs..they just dont fit with me. i dont think they have pizazz. Ive done a little hunting..mostly with curs, hounds, various bulldogs and with patterdales with my grandfather. ive met enough sporting dogs to know that generally..not my kind of dog. 

i really dont see the point of you responding in the way you did to my post considering im making it pretty clear that its MY OPINION. everyone here knows im a terrier gal through and through..i like my dogs to have that "oh YEAH!?!?" kind of personality. Makes them easier to train because of how I am and what my own temperament is like.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I understand what Zim is getting at here. There are certain breeds that I think are cute, pretty, etc BUT they aren't suited for me neither am I suited for them. Take Beagles for example- I just am not a beagle person. I think they are delightful little dogs with whomever chooses to own them. I just am not that person. We have one next door whom lives a life of being ignored and I always stop and pet her and give her treats from time to time. I like her and I don't like seeing her alone in a backyard 24/7. If I had the chance I would take her and find her a worthy home but she wouldn't stay. She would need to be appreciated for her quirks/antics/and the beagle temperment. I can't say that would happen with our family. I don't really 'do' any hounds though.
I, however, love the herding breeds and the working breeds. These well bred dogs make my toes curl. Lol. Others can't tolerate them and that's perfectly fine with me. I am certainly more than glad when someone tells me "They aren't the dogs for me." Less dogs would be rehomed or tossed away if people actually researched breeds instead of going with whats cute. As I think beagles are way cute with those eyes. I could have let myself be drawn to the breed that way and then had a very unhappy match.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

How threads evolve.

The things said by kasey I disagree with most.

Bullies can be dog aggressive and human aggressive, are owned by what you call wannabes, owned by real thugs, are owned by people who fight them, not always lucky enough to be adopted especially in areas where there are a lot of them. Though it might be hard for some to understand there are people who pay a lot for a dog and treat it like trash and then dump it like garbage. 

I'm totally not understanding the whole thing about DA ruining lives and prosecuting breeders. I have a dog she is 8yrs old, DA, hasn't ruined anyone's life, will not be in a shelter and I have nothing against her breeder. I take responsibility for my own dogs. I have another almost 8yrs old DA to some degree though she is social too and gets along with most and enjoys the company of other dogs, however she is no angel. Easily managed, ruined no lives, will never be in a shelter. 

I bred her, her progeny have failed to ruin lives, end up in the shelter they have not been used for fighting, been mistreated nor abused, or cause the apocalypse. I'm still great friends with her breeder and would not hold her responsible for my dogs actions. BTW her dam was actually cold or seemed so.

How and where a Pit ends has to do with a lot more then having the appropriate physical type. It is not a damnation to that dog, it does not mean he or she will have a horrible life.

Another something anyone who believes amstaff may not be DA havent been around enough amstaffs.


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

I agree with you. A dogs breed does not in any way affect his or her attitude since if she is still a pup, she could be trained. IT may somehow be a factor, but environmentally, it could be changed.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

JeanieStecher said:


> I agree with you. A dogs breed does not in any way affect his or her attitude since if she is still a pup, she could be trained. IT may somehow be a factor, but environmentally, it could be changed.


I'm not picking on you Jeanie, but I disagree with this line of thinking, and I've heard it before. 

I'm swinging around to the idea that you can "train out" a lot less than people generally think. Mostly it's anecdotal, but Patricia McConnell brushes the topic a few times in her books and on her blog. Look at the shy dogs that have always been in a good home and had good socialization, and the strong confidant dogs that have been through five homes.. That's just the way some dogs are. Especially when it comes to an animal's drives. You can take it out, but it's much harder, I'd almost say impossible, to put them in. That's why most protection sport dogs are bred specifically for that task. It's so much easier to start with the drives already in place than trying to build them to a workable level. Even taking the drive out of a dog is pretty hard, I don't know of anyway other than gross physical and mental punishment. Which isn't even a foolproof method either, with the wrong dog that strategy has every chance of making the dog MORE likely to go into overdrive. 

I think what Spicy was saying was that a DA dog isn't running around mauling dogs on the street every day just because she's DA. I'm presuming that Spicy has had that dog since a pup and hasn't been encouraging wanton hysteria against other dogs, but her dog is still DA. But it's managed responsibly. 

That's the key, I think, at least for me personally. In general I don't think it's beneficial to select too narrowly on breeding stock. You might be able to breed out DA in Pits, but no one knows what it's connected to and what might be lost along with that. Since DA can be managed responsibly, to me it makes more sense to maybe not breed FOR excessive dog aggression, but not be afraid of DA dogs if they have something to offer to the genetic pool. I would take a stable DA dog over a poorly-nerved dog who feels the need to cover his insecurity with broad aggressive tactics.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I'm not picking on you Jeanie, but I disagree with this line of thinking, and I've heard it before.
> 
> I'm swinging around to the idea that you can "train out" a lot less than people generally think. Mostly it's anecdotal, but Patricia McConnell brushes the topic a few times in her books and on her blog. Look at the shy dogs that have always been in a good home and had good socialization, and the strong confidant dogs that have been through five homes.. That's just the way some dogs are. Especially when it comes to an animal's drives. You can take it out, but it's much harder, I'd almost say impossible, to put them in. That's why most protection sport dogs are bred specifically for that task. It's so much easier to start with the drives already in place than trying to build them to a workable level. Even taking the drive out of a dog is pretty hard, I don't know of anyway other than gross physical and mental punishment. Which isn't even a foolproof method either, with the wrong dog that strategy has every chance of making the dog MORE likely to go into overdrive.
> 
> ...


yes. perfect. especially the bold. if i have a really well built, healthy dog who happens to be dog aggressive BUT ALSO is intelligent, confident, very eager to interact with and capable of responding to humans...that dog is worth breeding because i can use that responsiveness to humans to easily get a handle on the dog aggression. the people friendly aspect of the breed has a sort of canceling out effect with DA...in the hands of a responsible and capable owner...DA becomes a non issue.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> I would take a stable DA dog over a poorly-nerved dog who feels the need to cover his insecurity with broad aggressive tactics.



When I had Carter who was HA, DA and suffered from SA, his DA was the easiest thing to work on. In the 9 months I had him I was able to get him to hold a sit and watch as dogs walked as close as a few feet away. I couldn't predict what person he would go after, and I couldn't even begin to get a grasp on his SA.

I remember telling the Shelter when I was being interviewed for Nubs saying telling them that DA wasn't something I was too worried about. If I could train Carter to be able to be around other dogs, I could train any dog. Ideally I would prefer no dogs with DA, but if a dog with DA ended up in my hands I would be horribly upset. DA is pretty easy to get a handle on when you are constant.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Re: Jeanie

A dogs breed and breeding most certainly plays a part in their "attitude" their temperament. This is why one chooses the right breed for a specific job. They have the physical necessecities and required drives, temperament, ect. Not all dogs within a breed will be exactly alike, not all will even live up to the breeds traits at all. If genetics was not an important factor in temperament there would be no need no cull a dig with an underirable temperament and training would simply solve the matter. Environment, training, conditioning, socialization those things all play roles in a dogs behavior and we can modify behavior but we can only go to a certain level and take the dig to their individual potenial. We train with or against nature in modifying behavior. How a dog reacts to a certain stimuli can be the nature of that dog. Even a dog that is reactive out of fear aggression because they were atracked can have to do with nature, for another dog that went through the same situation might come out fine and yet another may be extremely submissive and show a lot of fear around other dogs. 

You can also train adult dogs including when it comes to behaving with aggression. I've worker reactive dogs to behave calmly around other dogs it takes time and patience. As far as Pits some might fight and be DA as pups but there are many which don't until they are older. So you would be working with them as an adult if you wish to work at modifying their aggressive behavior. 

You can't remove the like to fight (which is just an impulse a desire gratfied by the action) no more than you can make a cold dog fight. 

Just as prey drive is the nature of most dogs, some breeds have a high prey drive this is very much because of their breed and breeding. Dogs are not simply blank slates. All animals have insticts and hereditary traits.

Reagan exactly what you said. That was my point.


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

Well, you are very correct there. It is quite true that they also differ in some points like their attitude. As dogs are always dogs, their attitude would definitely come out later on even if how we train them as we can't deny the fact that they are still dogs. But my point is that if ever that we could isolate that dog's attitude wherein we could instill it in his mind that he should not be that way, probably he can.That would just be a shoot in the star, but it might just work.

Any comments will be appreciated.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Can you explain more what you mean?

We can modify behavior but can only take things so far. The issue with this breed is that they might not even be dog aggressive but if they get in a fight more than likely know what they are doing and truly fight unlike what most dogs do in a fight. No amount if training could take that out so it is something to consider. It isn't possible to breed it out with any certainty without fighting the dogs and breeding the worse of the fighters. Which obviously isn't the right thing to do.


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

Well, just as simple as that, dogs have that instinct within them even though how much we do something about that. The least that we could probably do is that we will just train the dog better.


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