# Your Opinions on Prong/Pinch Collars



## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

*Hey Everyone, Its been a long time since I've had the chance to get on and do some posting, hopefully everyone is doing good. 

Well lets see I have a questions for you guys, through some observations I notice many people don't like prong collars aka pinch collars, especially in the UK (seeing how they don't allow them there, i think).

What I wanted to know is what your opinion is on that training tool, do you find them "inhumane", or do you see them as effecient? Do you think there are better alternatives, if so which ones?

I'm really interested in hearing what you guys have to say about the subject.*


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Prong collars are banned in the UK? Wow...

I think they are a tool that can be effective when used properly. Unfortunately, like many tools for working with dogs, too many people use them improperly or as a crutch to avoid training the dog.


eta: I've never used a prong collar and never had need to use one. Other methods of leash training a dog have worked for me and my dogs.

Here's an interesting article by a well respected trainer/behaviorist about prong collars. On a side note, she also has an article making the case against head halters, which are oh-so-popular these days. http://www.flyingdogpress.com/prong.html


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> Prong collars are banned in the UK? Wow...
> 
> I think they are a tool that can be effective when used properly. Unfortunately, like many tools for working with dogs, too many people use them improperly or as a crutch to avoid training the dog.
> 
> ...


*Yeah Prong Collar aren't allowed in the UK, along with Pitbulls, makes me mad, but w/e. *


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I have used a prong collar on a dog many years ago. She was aussie shepherd/ whippet (kinda looking like a short haired aussie with all the exuberance of both breeds!) and could not learn to walk properly on a leash. However I was much less experienced with training dogs back then as well. A friend loaned me a prong collar telling me to think about it since I was very hesitant. But the dog was 4 years old and I could not walk her by myself as she would drag me down the gravel road. 

I used the prong collar on my dog for the first 1/4 mile of the walk. She immediately complied, I replaced the prong collar with her regular buckle collar, forgot to put attach the leash, and she remained heeling at my side from that moment on, forever, never even needing a leash again.

Again, only on the right dog, only as a last resort, only after being trained on the proper way to use it.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

Prongs can be a very effective way of training a dog to walk nicely, among other things. They need to be fitted correctly, they need to be used appropriately, and whoever has them needs to set a criteria and training plan. 

I would much rather see a dog on a pinch than a choke chain.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I think it is a training tool that if used properly is a good tool to use. But as one of the last resorts. I hope I never have to use one.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

It has been a life saver for me. My dog won't react to any collar except a pinch collar. He escaped 2 collars out on walks when we would pass other dogs, and a choke chain wouldn't get his attention at all. Pinch collars allow me to get his attention yet keep other dogs safe from him.

I tell you what though, some trainers are SO against pinch collars they will scream at you for 20 mins straight about you using one *rolls eyes*

As long as it is used properly, then it is a great tool. I wouldn't have been able to do as much training with my dog with out one.


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## bnwalker2 (Jan 22, 2008)

I love prong collars. If used correctly, they are a wonderful tool.


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## lucygoose (Feb 11, 2008)

Willie has made great progress with this collar and he is a small Papillon........It has made a big difference in his barking....The place we took him for obedience used them...I don't use it as much now, but I think, if used correctly, it is a good thing.....Good luck!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> *What I wanted to know is what your opinion is on that training tool, do you find them "inhumane", or do you see them as effecient? Do you think there are better alternatives, if so which ones?*


It's a tool. You use it to complete the job, and then you put it away. This means actual training must occur, in addition to the aversion. Efficiency and the humane use of the tool go hand in hand. Without testing for efficiency, the constant use of aversion can and should be viewed as the borders of inhumane. Testing for efficiency is simple but no one does it, one week from the next, count your ratio of rewards to corrections. If that number does not go up over time, guess what? Your training isn't working, and it could be that the aversion from the collar is exacerbating the problem. 

Alternatives really depend on the dog. Frankly, I'd rather spend my time searching for what motivates the dog, and once that's known, all other training becomes routine.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

I use one with my Husky, and I love it. There was a really nice discussion on it awhile back on these forums. When I first saw one I was intimidated, but I did my research and learned that it's actually a valuable training aid. I think you should however exhaust your options first and try less abrasive tools before using a prong collar. I tried both the EZ Walk Harness and Gentle Leader Head Halter with no results over a adequate period of time, then decided to get the prong.


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## Aussiefan (Jan 21, 2007)

A Pinch collar can be a wonderful training aid if used correctly.


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## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

I think before anyone attempts to use/train with a prong collar they should either seek someone with knowledge of the tool or do some research on it. 

I found this website to help the most when it comes to the prong collar:

http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm

I don't agree with most of what is on his website or even his training methods but not many websites have detailed exactly how to put and use a prong collar which he does very well.

I also think buying a GOOD QUALITY prong collar is important. I have one I bought years ago at petsmart and one recently bought online from the same leerburg website. Herm Springer I think might be the brand name but anyhow someone informed me that there is a huge difference between the cheap petsmart prongs and the more expensive ones online. It makes a big difference. I don't have to use one often and rarely ever anymore. It served its purpose months ago but is no longer needed.

Like most have said I believe it's a useful tool for training but should not be used in place of training your dog.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong. 
The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed. 
Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma. 
Of the 50 which had prongs, 2 had injuries in the neck area, 1 was determined to be genetic. 1 was caused by trauma. 
The numbers seem to speak for themselves.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I actually like the use of a prong collar for some dogs. Like some have stated that it is just a tool and in the right hands it is an effective tool. The goal of course is to train the dog. That would mean the tool is for temporary use only. Some folks think it is a quick answer to the dog pulling and once they use the prong they never quit using the prong collar and claim they cannot control their dog without one. This means they are using it as a management Vs. a training tool and that I do not believe in.

Yes, there is a definite difference in quality between a Pet smart model and a Herm Sprenger collar. The cheap models will sometimes snap off at the most inopportune times. The tines come apart. This is not a good thing when you are using this for a dog that is otherwise not under your control. It is better to invest one time in good quality equipment. It is also a good idea to learn how to properly adjust them. I see about 1/2 the prong collar using population with them ill fit.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

K9 Conversation said:


> A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
> 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
> The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
> Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
> ...



Have you ever actually seen the raw results of this study? I buy the numbers because I've seen both prongs and chokes used and I've heard this study quoted many times but I've never actually seen the study, seen and abstract, or seen anything that proves it actually exists. If you know where I could fing this info could you point me in the right direction?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

rvamutt said:


> I've never actually seen the study, seen and abstract, or seen anything that proves it actually exists. If you know where I could fing this info could you point me in the right direction?


I have a good idea why you haven't found anything...it's a myth, and now it's a tumult. Kind of like dominance theory, it's largely unproven, but many people believe it. How else are you going to sell a device that looks like a torture device?


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

Its a tool and as with any tools its not what you use, but how you use it and most people dont know how to, but abuse it. Same for anything else you use. Dont abuse the dog, but learn how to use something correctly, teach right, then put it away


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I have a good idea why you haven't found anything...it's a myth, and now it's a tumult. Kind of like dominance theory, it's largely unproven, but many people believe it. How else are you going to sell a device that looks like a torture device?


I assure you that I don't need to tell anyone that a prong is safer than a choke chain to get them to buy one. Not everyone wants to train their dog daily. Not everyone has the time (or timing) to train a dog to walk on a leash. Not everyone has the money for a class. Am I ok with that? No. Do I have a right to tell everyone that comes into the store that wants a quick fix to get rid of their dog? No. I had someone come into my store today with a dog that reacted violently to a gentle leader. I fitted a prong collar on the dog and after 90 seconds the dog was walking nice beside me, wagging his tail, taking treats, and helping me teach his owner to phase out the collar. With out this quick fix this person would not walk the dog, not take it out, and not give it the life it deserves.

The quoted study (whether make believe or not) is comparing two aversives. Would you argue that not only is a choke collar less efficient but is also inherently dangerous as compared to the prong?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

rvamutt said:


> Would you argue that not is a choke collar less efficient but is also inherently dangerous as compared to the prong?


I would argue that no tool is efficient until proven so. I would also argue that all tools are inherently dangerous if misused. I would not even attempt to compare the tools because I don't know which dog we're talking about or who's using it...that IS the difference.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

It's ok if it's used right. It will also work for some dogs and not others. In Eevee's case, it didn't work, and so now it's been sitting in a drawer for years lol...


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## Billiie (Jan 16, 2008)

Yes, if used properly and correctly, it is great. I used to use one on Owen when he was a puller, and it was amazing. Now, I hardly use it at all.. unless we are going somewhere where I know he is going to pull. It was a great training tool, but it should only be that, a training tool. You have to wean your dog off it to walk properly without it, some people just don't understand that.


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## Aussiefan (Jan 21, 2007)

I have no issues with chain collars like the prong collar as long as they are used correctly. The chain collar does require much more of a technique but is quite effective for the right dog, and experienced handler. I have trained all my dogs throughout the years on chain collars, worked excellent for me and them. It all depends on the dog and person IMO.


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## 5dogmom (Mar 9, 2008)

I beleive that all dogs learn different. Some learn with the choke collar and some with the pronk collar. Some learn with food and some learn with constant praise. Some just learn on instinct alone. It's your call to learn what your dog will learn and how he will get the greatest benefit.


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## mom2kdg (Jan 12, 2007)

I have to admit that without a prong collar Rambo would not be walked. I'm not a big or strong girl by any means and the first few times that I tried to walk him he hurt my shoulders to the point that I had to stop exercising to let my shoulder muscles heal. On the flip side he needs to go for walks. Not to mention that we live on a fairly busy street and most of my neighbors walk their dogs at the same time so there is many distractions. I would not be safe (pulled into the street) without it. I am going to try and phase it out over the next few months but for now I can't imagine not having it. He's fairly submissive so it's only used for walks.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

rvamutt said:


> Have you ever actually seen the raw results of this study? I buy the numbers because I've seen both prongs and chokes used and I've heard this study quoted many times but I've never actually seen the study, seen and abstract, or seen anything that proves it actually exists. If you know where I could fing this info could you point me in the right direction?


I have and I will see if I can find it for you.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

As I have posted in other threads,
At least 95% of dogs I train are trained with a prong/martingale combo, I use this because the correction is easier on dog with a combo collar setup. Both collars have same type of closure. If I have a tougher dog I use prong only. I do use Herm-Sprenger name brand, a much better made prong. I do not like choke collars so I do not use them. This is not meant to be a recommendation of prongs just a statement of fact, of my particular collar preferences. There also is a pet supply in my area that sells something called a mini-pinch for toy breeds.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

K9 Conversation said:


> I have and I will see if I can find it for you.


*
Yeah please if you find information about this post it, I'm really intruiged. 


As for the rest of the post, seems like mostly there is a positive opinion on it, of course as long as it is used correctly. Very nice thank you very much for your guys posts, especially those of you who posted personal expiriences, those are extremely helpful. 

But if there is anyone that would like to add, please do!*


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

A prong collar is really no different than an e-collar. It is a training tool--if the person using the tool is properly educated on how to use it and follows thru with it, it can be effective. I don't look it either as a permanent solution just a means to an end


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I went to Petsmart today and looked at the prong collars. I put one back together because it was undone and I wanted to see how it worked. It was hard! I didnt realize it was that hard. If I ever used one of those I would want the rubber caps on the ends. Actually I'm not sure if I could get myself to use it, I'm just going to say I hope I never get into the situation where I have to even think about it.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

A training tool, such as a prong collar, is only a means to an end. If used properly and used on the right dog, it is wonderful. If used improperly and used on a dog that balks at any form of correction, it is horrible. 

I have a prong collar for Chloe. I don't use it for basic training (don't need it), but I do use it when I walk her and when we go into town. Chloe responds very well to a mixture of physical and verbal correction and rewards, she has a very sensitive neck and the slightest pressure will cause her to gag, and she pulls on leash when very excited. The prong collar allows me to control her effectively and give her the corrections she needs at times. 
She doesn't hate her collar in the slightest; she actually loves to see me grab it because that means we're heading out!
On the other hand, Rose would balk if I used a prong on her and she'd most likely shut down. Blackie could care less either way, but in all honesty he responds well to slip collar corrections.

When I first brought the collar home, everyone thought I was so cruel and how could I put that on her? So my brother volunteered to put the collar _on his neck_ and have me give him a "correction". So I did. Guess what he said. "Get it off, it tickles!" LOL I've tried the collar on my wrist and my leg and it doesn't hurt. It is uncomfortable, but it doesn't even make me say, "Ouch."

My friend recentally aquired a 2 1/2 year old Pit Bull that pulled like no other. On top of that, she was dog reactive out in public and would posture and pull like the ****ens toward other dogs. I reccomended a prong collar. Britt, my friend, thought that prong collars looked like torture devices and she didn't want to use one on Sasha. I said, "Here, just let me show you how it works and you can decide for yourself." 
I fit one one Sasha properly, clipped the leash on, and away we went. We walked up and down two isle, one with a dog in it, and after a few mild corrections and some treats Sasha was heeling perfectally. The rest of the time we were in the store Sasha stayed by my side and didn't pull. Britt ended up getting the prong collar. 

But I'll say it again. A prong collar is a TOOL, just like a Gentle Leader, a no pull harness, a slip collar, a shock collar, a clicker, treats, etc. It does not replace TRAINING, it just aids you in it. One particular tool, or one particular training technique, is not right for every dog. You must find what works for your dog and go from there.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

*Wonderful post blackrose! Well said. I loved it!*


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It's a tool. You use it to complete the job, and then you put it away. This means actual training must occur, in addition to the aversion. Efficiency and the humane use of the tool go hand in hand. Without testing for efficiency, the constant use of aversion can and should be viewed as the borders of inhumane. Testing for efficiency is simple but no one does it, one week from the next, count your ratio of rewards to corrections. If that number does not go up over time, guess what? Your training isn't working, and it could be that the aversion from the collar is exacerbating the problem.
> 
> Alternatives really depend on the dog. Frankly, I'd rather spend my time searching for what motivates the dog, and once that's known, all other training becomes routine.


Well stated...it's a tool...not a permanant solution


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

Thought I'd bump this thread to see if there are any novel comments about them


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

When they are needed they are a great tool. I used one on Lloyd when we first got him. He was 8 months, 70 pounds and had no training at all, and he was not at all motivated by much of anything (I have since fixed that, building his drives . . . now he does anything for a ball) and couldn't care less about me. I tried for a month to teach him to walk nice with positive only methods, but he wasn't (and still isn't) very treat oriented, and again he didn't have much motivation for toys or anything then (I don't think he knew what they were for, he sure does now!). I then tried a gentle leader, he didn't like it and I didn't like it. So we got a prong, it worked to get his attention and got him walking nicely while I worked on building his drives and bond with me. Without it I wouldn't have been able to walk him for very long, and he would have been going nuts, which would not have been very helpful. Now I can walk him with a flat collar on, I use a starmark when training sometimes, but its not needed for walks.

With Allie I have been using a plastic version of a prong collar: Starmark Collar.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I would argue that no tool is efficient until proven so. I would also argue that all tools are inherently dangerous if misused. I would not even attempt to compare the tools because I don't know which dog we're talking about or who's using it...that IS the difference.


Good post!

The irony is that over the years I suppose I have seen the normal flat buckle collar used abusively 10 to 1 over all other collar types combined.
All collars do exactly the same thing when training, they just do it in a different way. When not training any collar is nothing but jewelry


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

There was a recent article that extolled the virtues of the electronic collar with it's ability to detect the lowest amount of stimulation...ie: the lowest setting where you notice a blink or an ear twitch....the dog felt it. That's the setting that is used for training. The other tools are not able to discriminate that finely and are too often used with ham fisted force.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Hi Jr. Dog Expert....

I just want to give you my view on the Prong Collar. Like said above, they are a tool. You put it on, train, take it off. Not something to be left on all the time. Also, it needs to be properly fitted, and the handler needs to know the proper way to use the prong. I love using the prong for training purposes, only because 2 of my dogs tend to pull on lead. As for my Chloe, we train with the regular nylon collar, as she only pulls a little at first, then doesn't pull at all. It is great for teaching a dog how to heel next to you. And for things like Rally training, it is a wonderful training tool to get your dog in sync with you, and once your dog starts doing well, you can slowly phase the prong collar out.

Now the negative side of the Prong, IMO, should not be used on very reactive dogs. I learned the hard way with Betty, and stopped using it after a couple days. What it did, it actually increased her reactivity a lot. I've tried using it again a couple months ago, just to see of I can work with it again on Betty, and no, I turned around and walked back home and got her regular collar to work with her. I tried correcting her, and it only triggered full-blown lunging.

But anyways, it is a great training tool. I really like using it to get my dogs started on new things. Then, once they start getting it down, I then move to just using the nylon collar. And the reason I like phasing it out is, you cannot use the prong collar in Obedience or Rally competitions, so it does need to be phased out. And for beginning new behaviors like heel, it's an excellent tool.


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## spottydog (Mar 14, 2007)

I've found it an effective training tool with the 2 dogs I've had so far, but agree with the rest that it has to be put away once it's done its job. Because it looks harsh, I sometimes wondered if I was training my dogs the right way, but I have to say I never really thought about other possibilities because that's how my family has always trained their dogs. Thanks for posting this!


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

As with any tool, it can be effective when used right, and it should only be used by people who know how to use it right.

Here in Singapore, prong collars aren't banned...but you can only procure them from certified behaviourists, and only after discussing with them the severity of the problem, and the training methods you have and haven't tried. I think it should be like this everywhere else, too.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

Everyone, thanks for posting! I find that in other dog forums the sole mention of prong collar makes everyone think that you are trying to kill the dog! It's silly I know. Seems like the general consensus is that its a tool, and when used properly it can have good benefits, once it has completed its purpose it is to be put away and you are now responsible for finishing the work that the prong started, correct?

I like what LoneWolfBlue posted about a case in which a dog didn't respond well to the prong, just goes to show that every dog is different and reacts differently. Guess you just have to keep looking for the perfect tool in that case!

Thanks again everyone!


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I'd like to add to this. I bought one for Smokey, because he was pulling my arm off! I seriously had no control and couldn't handle the pulling due to a torn ligament in my right shoulder (even though I'm a lefty) but it would take 2 hands to keep him from pulling me down, since he is almost the same as me in weight and obviously stronger.
I used it for a few weeks then went back to a flat nylon collar...he's now a joy to walk and no longer drags me along like a kite on a string.
I think they are a nice tool to have if you've gotten a dog that already has a pulling problem and isn't interested in food rewards or praise to try to accomplish the mission at hand. Otherwise, I think that positive training is the better way to go, but if it's not working, I'd definetely reccommend a prong collar.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> Everyone, thanks for posting! I find that in other dog forums the sole mention of prong collar makes everyone think that you are trying to kill the dog! It's silly I know. Seems like the general consensus is that its a tool, and when used properly it can have good benefits, once it has completed its purpose it is to be put away and you are now responsible for finishing the work that the prong started, correct?
> 
> I like what LoneWolfBlue posted about a case in which a dog didn't respond well to the prong, just goes to show that every dog is different and reacts differently. Guess you just have to keep looking for the perfect tool in that case!
> 
> Thanks again everyone!


Exactly. It is just a tool, and should be used as just that. I agree, there are people in here that don't like the prongs, and don't use it themselves, but at least they do recognize them as being another tool and don't bombard people who use them just because they don't. And they also give their opinions as well. But they don't knock people for using them.

As for Betty, she does great training with a Prong collar. But when around other dogs where she becomes Reactive, it just increases that reactivity. So I don't use it on walks, etc, but do use it for Rally training. But she's getting to the point where her training is now done almost all on her regular collar, phasing the prong collar out.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I also found a prong collar to make Allie more reactive (she is very leash reactive). She has had 5 years of pulling with her previous owners, she enjoys pulling. Its always gotten her to where she wanted to be, its been highly reinforced. So, its proving to be a hard habit to break with her. I tried the prong on her twice, definitely not the tool for this dog! With Lloyd it worked great, with Allie not so much. Funny enough, Allie walks great off leash, never leaves my side, on leash she isn't so great.


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## EXBCMC (Jul 7, 2007)

two labs, would not live w/out the collar. VERY well behaved when they are on! like turning on a switch.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

melgrj7 said:


> I also found a prong collar to make Allie more reactive (she is very leash reactive). She has had 5 years of pulling with her previous owners, she enjoys pulling. Its always gotten her to where she wanted to be, its been highly reinforced. So, its proving to be a hard habit to break with her. I tried the prong on her twice, definitely not the tool for this dog! With Lloyd it worked great, with Allie not so much. Funny enough, Allie walks great off leash, never leaves my side, on leash she isn't so great.


So if the prong collar doesn't work, what are you trying to use to stop the pulling?


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## tparker (Sep 18, 2008)

Using a pinch collar has allowed us to take Lily and turn her from a sled dog to a walking companion immediately and we hope to wean her off it as time and patience allow. I am going to try a Martingale type slip collar next unless someone has a suggestion.
p.s. I sure hope there are no heath problems from the pinch and tried it on my leg and all that stuff and am very aware of not letting her pull too much.


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## B-doggy (Sep 19, 2008)

Wow, it has been really great to read through all the posts on this topic. We just ordered Don Sullivan's package (which comes with a prong collar) because Bronx has started lunging at little children, and is way too strong for me when he other dogs are around. Other leads do not seem to work. Reading through other (un-informed!) people's blogs/forums worried me a little with the incredibly negative response, but here everyone who is posting has actually USED the prong collar. It's a well-informed, positive discussion, and nice to see. I will keep you posted on how it goes when we get it in the mail and begin training


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

B-doggy said:


> Wow, it has been really great to read through all the posts on this topic. We just ordered Don Sullivan's package (which comes with a prong collar) because Bronx has started lunging at little children, and is way too strong for me when he other dogs are around. Other leads do not seem to work. Reading through other (un-informed!) people's blogs/forums worried me a little with the incredibly negative response, but here everyone who is posting has actually USED the prong collar. It's a well-informed, positive discussion, and nice to see. I will keep you posted on how it goes when we get it in the mail and begin training


Well, just to inform you, some people on here use the Prong collar (including myself for training purposes only) and others don't, but there's been some threads on Don Sullivan's training that are kind of iffy (Sometimes it stirs people up). Don's collar isn't a prong collar, it's a plastic collar that's similar to the Prong, but is not a Prong. IMO, because I have the other plastic collar that is similar to Don's collar (Can't remember the exact name of it), it's not a Prong. It doesn't have near the effectiveness, and my dogs pull on it with no problems, like they do on regular collars. Go ahead and use the DS collar and give us your honest comments on it, and if it's doesn't turn out real well, try a real Prong collar. You will have much more control, IMO. Many of us aren't DS fans, but I personally won't knock people who try it, and hope they give their honest opinions on the program. Keep us posted on how things go.


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## *Gordi* (Sep 19, 2008)

It's a *No-Go*!! Definitly!!

And it's not only forbitten in UK, also in Austria, Switzerland and in Germany.. And that's ok!!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I posted this on the favorite collar thread and decided to dump it on here also.

My favorite working collar:
Well truth be told, of the last 500 dogs I've trained I may have had 5 that I swapped from prong collar to a different type of collar and possibly 20 that I reversed the prong until they got desensitized enough to reverse back. These were all started with martingale and prong together. Actually I like a prong because it's like power steering, much easier on dog because the corrections can be much lighter. Since I don't have a personal relationship with the dogs there is no ego involved. Sometimes with clients ego is involved when they work their own dogs and tempers are lost and dog damage is done. Watch a little league ball game and watch the parents hollering at their own kids. You know there not going to treat their dogs better than they treat their kids if they lose their tempers. Please I am not telling people to go out and buy prong collars, I am just giving my opinion on what is my favorite collar and why. I actually waited a couple days and was not going to post on this thread but decided to dive in. I don't remember exactly the percentages of collars before the last 500 dogs.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

*Gordi* said:


> It's a *No-Go*!! Definitly!!
> 
> And it's not only forbitten in UK, also in Austria, Switzerland and in Germany.. And that's ok!!


i would like to hear why its a no-go, if you dont mind sharing.

personally, i like them. i wish they wouldnt sell them to just anyone, but they are a great tool. i also wish they didnt not sell choke collars at all. i dont support those. the biggest problems i see with the chokes though is that EVERYONE has one and theyre constantly on the dog like a normal collar, and they are just using them and not using any training or anything.

back to prongs. i used one for both my danes. it worked for my brindle very well. she still wears it, but it just hangs on her. i never tighten or anything, she always walks at heel when its on. just the weight of it lets her know she has it on. if she doesnt have it on though, she will pull. i have tried a lot of training with walking with her, and shes just not getting it. so she will probably always wear the prong.

for my harlequin, she didnt respond to the prong well. she acted like it wasnt even there. it helped a little, but still, she would pull. she recently changed to a halti, which has worked wonders for her.

all in all, i like the prong as when it is used correctly it doesnt do the damage that a choke or even a flat buckle collar can do. with even pressure its not soley pressing on the throat or like the choke has no limit to which it can tighten which is very dangerous.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> i would like to hear why its a no-go, if you dont mind sharing.
> 
> personally, i like them. i wish they wouldnt sell them to just anyone, but they are a great tool. i also wish they didnt not sell choke collars at all. i dont support those. the biggest problems i see with the chokes though is that EVERYONE has one and theyre constantly on the dog like a normal collar, and they are just using them and not using any training or anything.
> 
> ...


Thats a great post GreatDaneMom! Just shows that every dog really does respond differently to different methods, there really is no such thing as a one for all training technique or collar, its just a trial and error kinda thing. 

I completely agree that its truely sad to see people use correctional/training collars as normal collars on their dogs...I've witnessed it a couple times here too, you kinda want to tell them something

wvasko, those are some pretty strong percentages! Really does go to show the effectiveness of the collar _when_ used correctly.

Thanks everyone!


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> I completely agree that its truely sad to see people use correctional/training collars as normal collars on their dogs...I've witnessed it a couple times here too, you kinda want to tell them something



thanks. ugh whats even worse than just wearing prongs as regular collars, is when i see dogs at the park playing offleash STILL WEARING THE PRONG COLLAR!!! hello, dont you see something wrong with that?? i mean, if your dog slips and falls face first, hes going to catch himself a lot with his head and neck.... theres so many different ways they can get hurt like that. ugh. it makes me so mad. and i even saw one guy who kept it on but turned it so the prongs were facing out! so now any dog that plays with his could get an eye out or something!!! come on people!


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> thanks. ugh whats even worse than just wearing prongs as regular collars, is when i see dogs at the park playing offleash STILL WEARING THE PRONG COLLAR!!! hello, dont you see something wrong with that?? i mean, if your dog slips and falls face first, hes going to catch himself a lot with his head and neck.... theres so many different ways they can get hurt like that. ugh. it makes me so mad. and i even saw one guy who kept it on but turned it so the prongs were facing out! so now any dog that plays with his could get an eye out or something!!! come on people!


Ya I know what you mean, it seems that common sense eludes some. ROFL. I mean imagine what would happen if that collar caught on a branch or something.... Wow


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## *Gordi* (Sep 19, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> i would like to hear why its a no-go, if you dont mind sharing.
> 
> personally, i like them. i wish they wouldnt sell them to just anyone, but they are a great tool. i also wish they didnt not sell choke collars at all. i dont support those. the biggest problems i see with the chokes though is that EVERYONE has one and theyre constantly on the dog like a normal collar, and they are just using them and not using any training or anything.


Ok I try- but please mind, that English ist not my native language

First of all, these collars are forbitten by law. 10.000 € has to be paid, if you use them.
I had once such a colar for my little girl, a cocker- lab- mix, 13 yrs. ago. Every move seemed to hurt. So I wanted to know how t feels ike wearing that collar by myself. Yes and indeed! The only thing you want to do is run away, it's like a reflex, and now it's hurts even more. Ok, I don't have fure on my neck, but i can't believe, that that doesn't hurt, although with fure.

I think, every dog can learn to walk properly on a leash, without pulling forward or so. It takes time ok, but I would never use a pinch collar for that. My Junior ist a dog who can't stand still for a second, walking on a leash he learned with a Halti (by Mugford).

Of course, if you want a pinch collar, you get it. Selling is allowed, using forbitten. Only trained persons have the concession to work with is. But even our local hunter (here in Europe you need for hunting a special education), told me, that he needed the collar only twice, because if you know how to use it, it's not even worth to buy it. I think, thats ok. But EVERYBODY, most of them without experience and understanding, use them mindless, because the dog has to function properly, no mistakes allowed and not in a few weeks, but right now!!

Everybody means the dogowners I meet every day, not the police dogs or hunting dogs, e.g. But even the police are more and more refusing these collars!

As the saying goes in Germany: "When knowledge ends, violence begins!" 

All these things are for specialists, not for the "average consumer".

I hope you understand what I mean, it's still difficult for me to cover such a topic in English.


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

I don't know much about prong collars, personally...But I do know that they hurt like a ***** when your fingers get caught between them and the wriggly dog you're trying to restrain for a blood draw at the vet clinic. ;_; I've come to hate the things, because I can only imagine the poor dog's pain when those things dig into it's neck. *shivers*


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## splash (Sep 19, 2008)

No opinion on collar type. But I can say I have become completely astounded by using the same methods as zoos and aquariums as outlined by marine/ animal trainer Ken Ramirez. Basically I use no form of positive punishment, or negative reinforcement. So basically I only add good things and take away the good things. Check out my youtube channel, to see what my 10 month old puppy can already do, its quite frightening. 
http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup

I am basically sold on the clicker training method, Ill never go back to using +punishment! not even using the words 'no' or 'eh eh' to train. 

As for loose leash walking there is this awesome book called MY DOG PULLS. WHAT DO I DO? by Turid Rugaas Its short and has lots of pictures.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> *Yeah Prong Collar aren't allowed in the UK, along with Pitbulls, makes me mad, but w/e. *


Are they? Can you give me a link to that law please?



K9 Conversation said:


> A Study on Prong Collars was done in Germany:
> 100 dogs were in the study. 50 used choke and 50 used prong.
> The dogs were studied for their entire lives. As dogs died, autopsies were performed.
> Of the 50 which had chokes, 48 had injuries to the neck, trachea, or back. 2 of those were determined to be genetic. The other 46 were caused by trauma.
> ...


Sorry I to have heard this studied bandied about but would really like to see it in its entirety - can you provide a link or some more information about who undertook the study and why so I can try and find it myself as Ive had no luck so far. thanks


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> Are they? Can you give me a link to that law please?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry I to have heard this studied bandied about but would really like to see it in its entirety - can you provide a link or some more information about who undertook the study and why so I can try and find it myself as Ive had no luck so far. thanks


I don't know if the study is accurate but common sense tells me that when you jerk hard on a very narrow collar versus a wider collar (whatever you use) there can be more damage from a narrow collar. The comparison is your hand being stepped on with standard shoe or a woman's high heels. One actually could put a hole in hand. Then there are many people that put a choke on wrong way and it does not release properly. Now there are some wider choke collars but I still do not like the choking attitude.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

*Gordi* said:


> Every move seemed to hurt. So I wanted to know how t feels ike wearing that collar by myself. Yes and indeed! The only thing you want to do is run away, it's like a reflex, and now it's hurts even more. Ok, I don't have fure on my neck, but i can't believe, that that doesn't hurt, although with fure.


when it is used PROPERLY it does not inflict pain at all. you most likely had it set too tightly. i too, have worn my girls prong collars on my neck. it does not hurt. it is a pressure, but not pain. 



*Gordi* said:


> As the saying goes in Germany: "When knowledge ends, violence begins!"


when used correctly they are not violent. and using one does not mean that you dont know what youre doing because you have to use a tool. in sence what youre saying is that i am too dumb to train my dog and thats why i use a prong collar



*Gordi* said:


> All these things are for specialists, not for the "average consumer".


are you a specialist? or are you an average consumer? it seems to me you are an average consumer, and you purchased a prong collar and used it, unsuccessfully. do you believe you used it improperly, and that this is what caused it to be painful?


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

wvasko said:


> I don't know if the study is accurate but common sense tells me that when you jerk hard on a very narrow collar versus a wider collar (whatever you use) there can be more damage from a narrow collar. The comparison is your hand being stepped on with standard shoe or a woman's high heels. One actually could put a hole in hand. Then there are many people that put a choke on wrong way and it does not release properly. Now there are some wider choke collars but I still do not like the choking attitude.


For a fact, even with a Martingale or slip lead, the smaller the diameter the harsher the correction.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

blunder said:


> For a fact, even with a Martingale or slip lead, the smaller the diameter the harsher the correction.


well yeah, i mean you can even test it on yourself and see the difference... not saying you should BUT, you can. LOL


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Katzyn said:


> I don't know much about prong collars, personally...But I do know that they hurt like a ***** when your fingers get caught between them and the wriggly dog you're trying to restrain for a blood draw at the vet clinic. ;_; I've come to hate the things, because I can only imagine the poor dog's pain when those things dig into it's neck. *shivers*


Now why would you use a prong collar to take your dog to the vet? That's not training. As for myself, I just use the regular nylon collar when I take my dogs to the vet, and if Betty starts having any issues, I take out my Gentle Leader to control her head. But have not had to use it yet at the vet, Betty really likes her vet.


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

I've thought about using the prong collar on my boston terrier mix since he doesn't respond to anything else. But, I know I'm definitely not an expert in training and I'd be afraid I'd do more damage than good. I did try the prong out on my thigh though. I figured there was no way it couldn't be painful, but honestly it's just startles you. It didn't hurt at all, but you definitely pay attention to it.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I think prong collars are great for the seasoned individual..Someone who knows how to use them properly..Like myself..I bought one for Dozer because he weighs as much as I do. But i sucked on how to actually use it. So I have always used the click and treat method. And it works fine.


But my only problem i have with them..Is when someone comes here asking about walking thier dog...and having a bit of issue..the first thing pulled out of the hat is a prong..

There is wayyyy too many techniques to try before a prong is used in my opinion.

Plus, As others stated...some people put them on thier dogs cause it looks "cool"

And using them on a small breed just gets me in a frenzy.


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

digits mama said:


> And using them on a small breed just gets me in a frenzy.


I hope that wasn't directed at me. Bartleby is a boston terrier/boxer mix and over 30 lbs. Nylon collars are doing too much damage to his neck and he mainly hops along on his back legs when on a harness. I haven't tried a head collar on him yet though.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

No it wasnt directed at you...


Why is that happening twice in one week???


This is opinions..plain and simple..

Im talking chi, bichons, yorkies..etc. "small" breeds


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I would have never dreamed of using a Prong collar before,infact i didnt know what one was untill DF.
My Mastiff is a big time puller and im big enough to hold him when he does so,problem is that my GF couldnt walk him at all and the last straw was being pulled across the floor by him.

It is a brilliant training device if used correctly although he still pulls when squirrels run by or a fox etc.
I must admit since getting my prong from a friend here i have kept it on as his "normal" collar quite alot(my dogs dont wear collars in the home),that i will change as he has reacted well enough to the prong,even my tiny mum can walk him(in the garden.LOL)

Basically its not for everyone and it certainly is not "Doggy Bling"!!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> I would have never dreamed of using a Prong collar before,infact i didnt know what one was untill DF.
> My Mastiff is a big time puller and im big enough to hold him when he does so,problem is that my GF couldnt walk him at all and the last straw was being pulled across the floor by him.
> 
> It is a brilliant training device if used correctly although he still pulls when squirrels run by or a fox etc.
> ...


Pooch
Don't use collar as normal collar, remember Murphy's Law.


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## *Gordi* (Sep 19, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> are you a specialist? or are you an average consumer? it seems to me you are an average consumer, and you purchased a prong collar and used it, unsuccessfully. do you believe you used it improperly, and that this is what caused it to be painful?


*I don't use it on my dogs, they have nevern worn such a collar!!* There are more ways to train a dog, e.g. clicker. 

You don't understand what I mean. Fact is: When you are caught with such a collar in Germany, Austria or Switzerland, and you are not working at the police or you are not a hunter, everybody can go to the police and make a report, so if you are caught a second time you might pay a fee up to 10.000 €. Thats fact. It needed a lot of time, but in the last year, they changed the animal protection law fortunately.

I find, these collars means cruelty to animals. That's my opinion.

I have written, that using the collar properly, you don't need it for a long time. But most of the dogowners, that use these collars, use them not only a few weeks, but for months or years. 

I can't change your opinion, but I know, that my dogs won't get such collars.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

*Gordi* said:


> *I don't use it on my dogs, they have nevern worn such a collar!!* There are more ways to train a dog, e.g. clicker.
> 
> You don't understand what I mean. Fact is: When you are caught with such a collar in Germany, Austria or Switzerland, and you are not working at the police or you are not a hunter, everybody can go to the police and make a report, so if you are caught a second time you might pay a fee up to 10.000 €. Thats fact. It needed a lot of time, but in the last year, they changed the animal protection law fortunately.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is that something that you have never tried and know nothing about is cruel. With that standard all the police and hunting dog handlers are also cruel trainers in your opinion. I can understand you not using the collar as it's against the law.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> I must admit since getting my prong from a friend here i have kept it on as his "normal" collar quite alot(my dogs dont wear collars in the home),that i will change as he has reacted well enough to the prong,even my tiny mum can walk him(in the garden.LOL)


Not a good idea to keep it on as a regular collar. It is a training only collar. It is not like a buckle collar or nylon that are universal collars, can be used for training and left on.



*Gordi* said:


> I find, these collars means cruelty to animals. That's my opinion.


Prong collars is not cruel if used properly. They are a very good training tool. But IMO, should not be used with reactive dogs, as it only increases their reactivity. But for training, such as my Betty's Rally training, it helped tremendously with her heeling, til she got the correct position down pat. And no, I wasn't using it for corrections either, but allowed her to correct herself. No leash pops. If it wasn't for the prong, I would still be fighting her pulling, even with treats and praise.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Pooch
> Don't use collar as normal collar, remember Murphy's Law.


I know Wvasko,my bad



Lonewolfblue said:


> Not a good idea to keep it on as a regular collar. It is a training only collar. It is not like a buckle collar or nylon that are universal collars, can be used for training and left on.


This is very true.
I'll go back to useing it purely for its sole purpose which is a training device and an excelent one at that


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

Sassy is a puller, so the Prong Collar saves my shoulders from being ripped loose. Zeus is DA, so I use a prong on him to control him around strange dogs and to re-focus him on me instead of the other dog. I had poor luck with the chain chokers. Sassy lunged with such force she'd snap them..


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

KcCrystal said:


> I had poor luck with the chain chokers. Sassy lunged with such force she'd snap them..


you shouldnt be using chokers on a dog that lunges anyway. this only re-inforces how i feel about only trained individuals being able to access these tools.

wvasko- i hear you. i have no problems with people having an opinion, but when its an uneducated opinion, and statements are made like that (ie, using a prong is cruel), thats when i have a bit of a problem.

Gordi- YOU stated that YOU bought a prong and used it on your dog and "it seemed every movement hurt". how can you say that but then say that you have never used one. that doesnt make sense


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> you shouldnt be using chokers on a dog that lunges anyway. this only re-inforces how i feel about only trained individuals being able to access these tools.
> 
> wvasko- i hear you. i have no problems with people having an opinion, but when its an uneducated opinion, and statements are made like that (ie, using a prong is cruel), thats when i have a bit of a problem.
> 
> Gordi- YOU stated that YOU bought a prong and used it on your dog and "it seemed every movement hurt". how can you say that but then say that you have never used one. that doesnt make sense


GDmom
KcCrystal had problems and she learned by trying something different. Isn't that basically how you found out about prong. I too get irked when somebody makes a statement telling other people how bad something is with no real experience behind the statement.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

wvasko said:


> GDmom
> KcCrystal had problems and she learned by trying something different. Isn't that basically how you found out about prong. I too get irked when somebody makes a statement telling other people how bad something is with no real experience behind the statement.


im not saying shes wrong. but these tools can do much damage if not used properly, and applied to the right circumstances. this is why they need to be under lock and key i believe. im sure no one told her not to use one for her dog. 10 to 1 she went into the store, told them what was going on and thats what they told her to get because THEY THEMSELVES are not educated in the matter either. that is what i believe is sad. you walk into petsmart or something and all these sales people are just that, sales people. they have no real idea.


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## TripMom (Aug 8, 2008)

I will preface my reply by stating we are working with a behaviorist and have our dog in obedience training. We adopted an 11 month old Australian Shepherd that had no training, is very strong, and is strong willed. Our behaviorist suggested a pinch collar since our dog was dragging us around with a Martingale, and the Gentle Leader seemed to significantly up his stress level. In obedience, I used the pinch collar for the first 5-10 minutes and then switch to the Martingale.

I agree that the pinch collar should be used with care and caution. We have found that it does work effectively, but we want to use it very short term. I don't think a short fused person should use a pinch collar.

Lisa


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## *Gordi* (Sep 19, 2008)

No, I mean, that the police and the hunters know how to use, and so they don't have to use it very often.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

*Gordi* said:


> No, I mean, that the police and the hunters know how to use, and so they don't have to use it very often.


that didnt answer my question though


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## starry15 (Jan 20, 2007)

My opinion I think that they are cruel and taking the lazy way out in training. I can understand using them if you tried every option to teach your dog to heel and your dog just don't get it. I think prong and pinch collars should be used as a last option. 

For many years I struggled with my dog not wanting to heel. Finally over the weekend we had a beakthrough!! He learned to heel for me. It takes time and patience and keeping it consistent so your dog don't get confused. I delt with his issue for years but the point is, I didn't train him using prong/pinch collars. I don't want to train my dog to listen to me out of fear. That is just wrong  .


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

starry15 said:


> My opinion I think that they are cruel and taking the lazy way out in training.


The fact is that it is NOT an easy way out of training. If you really look into the psychological reason as to why it works, instead of just looking at how it looks you would know why its an effective tool.



starry15 said:


> For many years I struggled with my dog not wanting to heel. Finally over the weekend we had a beakthrough!! He learned to heel for me. It takes time and patience and keeping it consistent so your dog don't get confused. I delt with his issue for years but the point is, I didn't train him using prong/pinch collars. I don't want to train my dog to listen to me out of fear. That is just wrong .


Just because you had a miraculous break through doesn't mean that everyone else will too. Yes training does take patience and time, but you just know when your dog isn't making improvements that you have to resort to another method.

Besides we aren't all dealing with a mid sized eskimo dog like yours, some of us have bigger dogs that make pulling a priority to solve. 

You have to take into account that your dog isn't the only type of dog. 



lurcherloopy said:


> Are they? Can you give me a link to that law please?


Yes I can give you a link; I'm not familiar with UK news shows but here is a summary on the Pit bull thing, allow me to look for one on prong collars...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6222689.stm

Here is the one on prong collars, yet I've learned since the time that I posted this thread (a while back ) that they aren't completely banned but its not as easy to get one as here in the US. Anyway the focus of the article is more of police dogs, but w/e 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/744922.stm


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## starry15 (Jan 20, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> The fact is that it is NOT an easy way out of training. If you really look into the psychological reason as to why it works, instead of just looking at how it looks you would know why its an effective tool.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps if you would read my post througly instead of rolling your eyes you would get that everything you just stated is everything I just said but in different words. 

I never said that it is a cruel tool to use, I said ONLY if you don't even try the other methods. I think that if you use prong/pinch collars before trying other methods then you are taking the lazy way out. Which I think we both know you, can be lazy. Also, if you dont even have a problem with training your dog you just want to use the prong/pinch collars then that is when I find it cruel.

I know nobody has a dog like mine but the main point of what I wrote was that you have to give things a try. You cannot try a method and two days later give up on it because it didn't work! It will take time and patience and pratice. Don't just try it and then say oh it won't work and then go use a prong/pinch collar. Give things a chance and time. 

Acutually some dogs don't even learn by using a prong/pinch collar. I do suggest using prong/pinch collars as a very last resort.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

starry15 said:


> Perhaps if you would read my post througly instead of rolling your eyes you would get that everything you just stated is everything I just said but in different words.


I never said that you stated anything, you implied it, which are two completely different things. 



starry15 said:


> I never said that it is a cruel tool to use, I said ONLY if you don't even try the other methods. I think that if you use prong/pinch collars before trying other methods then you are taking the lazy way out. Which I think we both know you, are one for the lazy way. Also, if you dont even have a problem with training your dog you just want to use the prong/pinch collars then that is when I find it cruel.


Did anyone say that they gave up on the training technique after a "short" time after using it? Nope, neither did I, many people have struggled a LONG time before switching to the prong. Yet since the prong, if used properly, isn't cruel or painful, I see NO problem with starting with it right off the bat.

I've put one around my arm and on my neck, and if it fits well, it doesn't hurt.



starry15 said:


> I know nobody has a dog like mine but the main point of what I wrote was that you have to give things a try. You cannot try a method and two days later give up on it because it didn't work! It will take time and patience and pratice. Don't just try it and then say oh it won't work and then go use a prong/pinch collar. Give things a chance and time.


You understand that many people do work long and hard before switching? I'm still working on Junior's pulling urges and still have not turned to the prong, and I've been training him for quite some time. 



starry15 said:


> Acutually some dogs don't even learn by using a prong/pinch collar. I do suggest using prong/pinch collars as a very last resort.


You don't posses the expirience to suggest that, the minority of dogs don't learn using prong collar and that is due to their reactiveness. 

Turning to a well exirienced member, wvasko stated that out of the 500 dogs he's trained only a handful have reacted negatively to the prong... if you ask me I'll go with that statistic rather than by just an assumption...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

starry15 said:


> My opinion I think that they are cruel and taking the lazy way out in training. I can understand using them if you tried every option to teach your dog to heel and your dog just don't get it. I think prong and pinch collars should be used as a last option.
> 
> For many years I struggled with my dog not wanting to heel. Finally over the weekend we had a beakthrough!! He learned to heel for me. It takes time and patience and keeping it consistent so your dog don't get confused. I delt with his issue for years but the point is, I didn't train him using prong/pinch collars. I don't want to train my dog to listen to me out of fear. That is just wrong  .


starry15
That is 100% your right to train as you want. Now through all the years it took you to finally get your dog to heel, *many years* If you were the type that never got angry at your dog because of the pulling etc and your relationship with your dog stayed the same, you are a saint. Usually people get frustrated, sometimes they get angry, sometimes they get rid of their dogs. One thing that puzzles me is that you said your dog would be listening to you out of fear. Is this an assumption or do you know this for a fact because you tried a prong collar. Just curious.

Dog Expert

*You don't posses the expirience to suggest that, the minority of dogs don't learn using prong collar and that is due to their reactiveness.

Turning to a well exirienced member, wvasko stated that out of the 500 dogs he's trained only a handful have reacted negatively to the prong... if you ask me I'll go with that statistic rather than by just an assumption...*

I never tell anybody to use a prong collar, I use the collar because I've been working dogs actually close to 50 years now. I do believe that before anybody uses aversive methods they should try other means first. I said it is my collar of choice, I did not say that amateur handlers haven't hurt and damaged dogs by improper use of the prong collar, I'm sure there have been many dogs that have been abused with ignorant use of the collar. When I read a dog I know what to use and how to adjust my training methods as needed. The 500 dogs are just a drop in the bucket to the amount of dogs trained in 50 years. starry15 is correct to advise using prong as last resort. I do apologize for any misunderstanding that may have occurred with my post.


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## starry15 (Jan 20, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> I never said that you stated anything, you implied it, which are two completely different things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well I am sorry you feel that way, seeing as how you are only a year older than me. I am sorry but you asked for an opinion on prong/pinch collars and I gave you my opinon not for you to "shoot" it down or tell me what I think is wrong. Your forgetting that an opinon has no right or wrong answer but how the person feels on that subject. I am sorry but you are not a know it all and you never will be. Nobody is no matter how hard they try to act or try to present themselves. 

You may know alot about dogs but may I suggest you learn the to respect peoples opinions and not correct them? You always seem to correct whatever I have to say on the subject of dogs. Kind of like, I am stupid about it. Well, you may know me but you don't know me well enough. I know alot more then I lead on. No to be rude or anything, seeing as how you are my friend. 

I really don't get at what your trying to prove. As far as I am concerned everything I said was basically what you said once again. Expect for the you dont think they are cruel part. Just because you use bigger words and restate better don't make it two different things. 

You remember the other day you told me about assume? Well you just assumed that I implied that. Believe me, if I implied anything I would of came right out and said it. Anyway, you asked me how I felt on that subject and my opinion and I wrote how I felt. Take it or leave it. I might not have 4 years of dog training that don't mean nothing when it comes to an opinion.

Edit: To answer Wvasko's question, No I have never used a prong collar on my dog. My brother has used prong collars on his dog and his dog learned heel the first time the dog started choaking and gagging from the pull. I feel that if you have to choak your dog to get him to learn to heel that is like making your dog learn out of fear. Now I can see using the prong collar if your dog just isnt getting it and you tried every method out there for year and years and your going to give up. I think there is a time and place for using it.

Steven, if there is proven facts that prong collars are good then why did you even post asking for an opinion? I mean that there has no point... Especially if someone posts with an opinion and someone is there to correct them.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

Learning that a behavior has consequences is completely different than learning out of fear.
How do you think the pups mother taught it the difference between playing with her ear and biting her ear?

I can't imagine what a customers reaction would be if it took me years and years to teach their dog to heel.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

starry15 said:


> I don't want to train my dog to listen to me out of fear. That is just wrong  .


Fear of what? The training, when done correctly, is not one of fear. When I use the prong to train Betty for Rally, you don't use corrections with it. She corrects herself when she becomes uncomfortable. She gets a little ahead and it adds a little pressure. That's it. And then she backs to the correct position, then I praise and treat for the correct position. In no way is she listening out of fear. And, contrary to what some say, she has learned much faster with the prong than without. It allows me more precise control without the use of corrections, or getting frustrated with just going the treat and praise route because it takes time and patience. I do have patience, but I just could not get her to heel for anything without the prong. And this statement alone shows how inexperienced you are with prong collars. You make it sound like a bloody, painful experience, instilling fear into the dog. That is just wrong, IMO.

As for your training and getting your dog to heel, good for you. It's gives a great feeling of accomplishment when you finally get to your goal. 



starry15 said:


> Acutually some dogs don't even learn by using a prong/pinch collar. I do suggest using prong/pinch collars as a very last resort.


Actually, it's up to the individual, and not as a last resort. Like others mentioned, it is not cruel to use the prong, if they use it properly, and are educated to use it properly. It's not a device which you yank on and cause all kinds of pain to instill fear. But it is a control device that uses pressure when the dog starts pulling. It does cause pain if you use it the wrong way, but if used correctly, it only feels slightly uncomfortable and the dog will slow back down. He learns that he causes his own discomfort, and we don't cause it.

Now, with Chloe, I don't need to use it. She might pull a little in the first 5 minutes of the walks, but after that, she's right next to me. And she trains well with just the nylon collar. So no need to use it. If she would be a puller, like Nell, then I do use the prong to start, as I prefer to nip the pulling in the bud from the very start. Then I can move on to a regular collar like I've been doing with Betty, who only needs the prong on occasion if she get's into the pulling mode, which is pretty rare now.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I agree with most, if used properly the prong can be a good tool. I think choke chains can be more dangerous because it takes more to correct he bahvior, while the prong collar corrects the dog itself by applying pressure in the right spots.

I had a large pitbull a few years ago, and he never really got the idea of heeling even after a few years of trying everything, even with the prong collar he would just pull through it. The only thing that worked was a gentle leader, and then people thought it was a muzzle...

Yet on other dog's I've had, prong collars work better than gentle leaders, because a lot of dogs figure out the trick to halti's. If they stiffen all their muscles, they can keep their neck straight and keep pulling...I think a lot of it can depend on the dog, and how persistent they are in their actions!


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> Originally Posted by melgrj7
> I also found a prong collar to make Allie more reactive (she is very leash reactive). She has had 5 years of pulling with her previous owners, she enjoys pulling. Its always gotten her to where she wanted to be, its been highly reinforced. So, its proving to be a hard habit to break with her. I tried the prong on her twice, definitely not the tool for this dog! With Lloyd it worked great, with Allie not so much. Funny enough, Allie walks great off leash, never leaves my side, on leash she isn't so great.
> So if the prong collar doesn't work, what are you trying to use to stop the pulling?
> __________________
> ...


A plastic version of the prong collar: Starmark Collar and constantly verbally reminding her to walk nice. I have to remind her literally every few steps, it gets very annoying. The starmark I don't really use to often just for walks anymore, sometimes still, but not all the time. It takes Allie a long time to get new things, her brain doesn't work quite right since she was sick. Before she got sick was very quick to get things (we lived with her and her previous owners before for about a year). When we got her from them, took her to our vet, we found out she had anaplasmosis. She had probably had it for months She is better now, but the damage is done and she isn't the same mentally. She is also hard to motivate, she won't take treats out on walks, nor does she want toys, so training is kinda difficult in some situations.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

blunder said:


> Learning that a behavior has consequences is completely different than learning out of fear.
> How do you think the pups mother taught it the difference between playing with her ear and biting her ear?
> 
> I can't imagine what a customers reaction would be if it took me years and years to teach their dog to heel.


Blunder
You would not have to worry about it, you would have no customers.


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## Jr. Dog Expert (Sep 11, 2007)

melgrj7 said:


> A plastic version of the prong collar: Starmark Collar and constantly verbally reminding her to walk nice. I have to remind her literally every few steps, it gets very annoying. The starmark I don't really use to often just for walks anymore, sometimes still, but not all the time. It takes Allie a long time to get new things, her brain doesn't work quite right since she was sick. Before she got sick was very quick to get things (we lived with her and her previous owners before for about a year). When we got her from them, took her to our vet, we found out she had anaplasmosis. She had probably had it for months She is better now, but the damage is done and she isn't the same mentally. She is also hard to motivate, she won't take treats out on walks, nor does she want toys, so training is kinda difficult in some situations.


Ah yes, I've heard of the StarMark Collar, haven't seen any around here, but sounds like its an alternative for those that seem hesitant on using the Prong Collar. How is Allie responding to that?


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Blunder
> You would not have to worry about it, you would have no customers.


wvasko,
*ROFLMAO*


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

First off Sassy is a high prey drive dog. Anything that moves she'll chase it. Cat, bird, bunny, squirrel. I wasn't having issues with the choker until she jerked me off my feet and broke the collar. In fact my vet suggested using a prong on her. And ever since I started her on a prong, she's a differant dog. I still have to give her a quick correction if she's really fixated on a squirrel, but I can usally re-direct her attetion to me.

So please don't tell me I don't know how to treat my dogs. Sassy isn't an easy dog to live with, she's very high prey, low pack. So it takes alot to actually gain her attention during training. In fact I've had alot of sucsess with the Exercise, Dicspline, affection routine. I know for a fact if someone else would've gotten Sassy instead of me, she would've been PTS along time ago. She's agressive at the vet, she has medical issues. She's just a PIA at times. But I'd never get rid of her. If a Prong collar makes it easier for me to control her, so be it.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Pepper said:


> Yet on other dog's I've had, prong collars work better than gentle leaders, because a lot of dogs figure out the trick to halti's. If they stiffen all their muscles, they can keep their neck straight and keep pulling...I think a lot of it can depend on the dog, and how persistent they are in their actions!


That is exactly what happens with Betty, and is why the prong is a good investment with her. She's so strong, and you cannot turn her head. You can turn her whole body, but then she goes right back to facing the other dog. Cannot keep her turned around. With the prong, I only use it for training, and not on walks, because your other point is valid. She does not feel the pressure or any pain, she just wants the dog. On walks, I only use the regular collar and work through the issues, as hard as it is. I don't want the prong to increase her reactivity. But for training, the prong has been a blessing for working on perfect, or near perfect heeling.



Jr. Dog Expert said:


> Ah yes, I've heard of the StarMark Collar, haven't seen any around here, but sounds like its an alternative for those that seem hesitant on using the Prong Collar. How is Allie responding to that?


To be honest, I have one, and don't like them much. I've tried using it with Nell, but she pulls during training. I switched over to the prong, and she no longer pulls during training, she stays right at my side. The StarMark just doesn't have as much pressure, and the ends of each link are rounded, so it's more like using a segmented buckle collar. You can give it a try, and have heard about people who are happy with them, but for my dogs, it was a total waist. I guess it's because the herding breeds are more immune to pressure, just like all the bullies like pits, rots, etc. So my thoughts on it, it depends on the individual dog as to whether you will get good results with it or not.



KcCrystal said:


> So please don't tell me I don't know how to treat my dogs. Sassy isn't an easy dog to live with, she's very high prey, low pack. So it takes alot to actually gain her attention during training. In fact I've had alot of sucsess with the Exercise, Dicspline, affection routine. I know for a fact if someone else would've gotten Sassy instead of me, she would've been PTS along time ago. She's agressive at the vet, she has medical issues. She's just a PIA at times. But I'd never get rid of her. If a Prong collar makes it easier for me to control her, so be it.


Nothing wrong with using a prong collar, when used right it really can make a difference. Now you say she's aggressive at the vet? Is it with other dogs as you walk in or is it with the actual vet (the doctor)? If it's the vet, then what would your thoughts be about using a Gentle Leader? My Betty doesn't have issues with the vet, but she can have issues with certain people, and can turn on a dime. So I bring a GL with me just in case, that way I have more control over her head, as well as be able to keep her mouth closed, keeping everyone safer. It's just a backup for me, but might be able to help you control the dog better at the vet when she's on the table. Those are just my thoughts on it.


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## Line-of-Fire (Aug 2, 2008)

Personally, I LOVE them. They're a GREAT tool when you know exactly what you're doing. I used one on my Cocker, who would NOT listen to me with a flat or a choke. Once I slipped the pinch on him, he listened instantly. With a stubborn dog, it's a good thing to use. I don't think that it hurts them as much as it surpirses them with every correction. Each time you administer a correction, it surprises the dog. Makes them think, "Ah! That's not good... No more of that, I hurt when that happens." or whatever you want to think lol. 

And with our shepherds, its DEFINATELY a nice thing. I'm only 5'4". Even though I do lots of squats and what not (volleyball) I still can't always overpower the shepherd. That's where the prong comes in. Paulie liked to pull me around until I got him a prong. Even after I took it off and started using a choke, he's listened to me. I think it just helps drill into their head.

My cocker, on the other hand, was as stubborn as they come. But he was smart and knew the difference between the collars lol.

I just hope no one here judges me lol. I kinda sounded ruthless there... And I'm really not. Trust me. I don't use a prong unless push comes to shove. I try them out with a flat (the ones that tighten) then give them a nice, long chance with a choke but if that doesn't work, I use the prong. And only until the behavior is corrected, which is usually the Fuss command. Yuck lol.


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> That is exactly what happens with Betty, and is why the prong is a good investment with her. She's so strong, and you cannot turn her head. You can turn her whole body, but then she goes right back to facing the other dog. Cannot keep her turned around. With the prong, I only use it for training, and not on walks, because your other point is valid. She does not feel the pressure or any pain, she just wants the dog. On walks, I only use the regular collar and work through the issues, as hard as it is. I don't want the prong to increase her reactivity. But for training, the prong has been a blessing for working on perfect, or near perfect heeling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well she bites the vet & the vet techs. So I use a leather muzzle I had made for her. She's part Shar-pei, so I haven't found a GL that would actually work on her face. First time I took her to the vet as a 6 week old puppy *I know It was a bad idea to get her that young, but It was sorta an emergancy sitituation* she tried to take a peice out of the tech. She's always had temperment issues. And I can live with it. She's my constent problem child, and she keeps me on the toes. But we have made massive strides in socialzation. She can be around children without issue, and she's fine with other dogs. I dunno, I work on her alot, so she can be around others. When she was younger, we couldn't even walk her down the street without her having issues with people around. Now people can go by one a bike and she just looks at it and moves on.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Line-of-Fire said:


> Personally, I LOVE them. They're a GREAT tool when you know exactly what you're doing. I used one on my Cocker, who would NOT listen to me with a flat or a choke. Once I slipped the pinch on him, he listened instantly. With a stubborn dog, it's a good thing to use. I don't think that it hurts them as much as it surpirses them with every correction. Each time you administer a correction, it surprises the dog. Makes them think, "Ah! That's not good... No more of that, I hurt when that happens." or whatever you want to think lol.
> 
> And with our shepherds, its DEFINATELY a nice thing. I'm only 5'4". Even though I do lots of squats and what not (volleyball) I still can't always overpower the shepherd. That's where the prong comes in. Paulie liked to pull me around until I got him a prong. Even after I took it off and started using a choke, he's listened to me. I think it just helps drill into their head.
> 
> ...


Well, some might judge you, but I won't, even though I prefer not to use corrections. When I use the prong, I let the dog correct itself. If the dog starts walking a little ahead of me, they will correct themselves. I don't give any kind of pop, etc. That's why I like the prong for some things, as in training, or walking a dog that's not reactive to other dogs. I can't use it with Betty on walks unless I know we are going somewhere where there's no other dogs. And for Rally training, it's been the best tool I've used. And she learned very fast where heel was, and the best part, she corrected herself and learned where heel was. Once I knew that she had a pretty good idea, then I added the command 'Heel' to it by saying 'Good Heel'. Now I don't need to use the prong about 90% of the time. Just occasionally when she starts to slip a little and starts pulling.



KcCrystal said:


> Well she bites the vet & the vet techs. So I use a leather muzzle I had made for her. She's part Shar-pei, so I haven't found a GL that would actually work on her face. First time I took her to the vet as a 6 week old puppy *I know It was a bad idea to get her that young, but It was sorta an emergancy sitituation* she tried to take a peice out of the tech. She's always had temperment issues. And I can live with it. She's my constent problem child, and she keeps me on the toes. But we have made massive strides in socialzation. She can be around children without issue, and she's fine with other dogs. I dunno, I work on her alot, so she can be around others. When she was younger, we couldn't even walk her down the street without her having issues with people around. Now people can go by one a bike and she just looks at it and moves on.


Cool, sounds like you are making some progress. Dogs with deep issues are a tough breed, I've had to deal with it with Betty, but doesn't sound like she's near as bad as your girl. But it's like it's almost the opposite, yours is with the vet and mine is with other dogs, lol. But anyways, keep up the good work. These things can take lots of time, and you may never get all the way to where you want, but any little positive movement is a plus. And you learn tons more than if you had a dog that's absolutely perfect. I would consider myself as having 1 dog with issues and 2 perfect dogs, lol. The only issues with Nell is she's shy around people at first, but then warms up to them and becomes a lovebug. And the issues with Chloe is, well, I don't know, lol. She loves people, kids, dogs, cats, etc, etc, lol. The only negative is she's a typical sheltie, she's vocal, likes to bark and say hi, lol.


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

I really wonder what happened to her in the period before I recived her. I wonder if that is the root to her behavior issues. Or she's just a defective product of a BYB, who allowed their unspayed female to become pregnant with an unknown male. Not only does she have behvior & temperment issues, she plagued with health issues. She was hospitalized with Parvo when the big outbreak hit. And she was vacinated against it. We almost lost her. Then she had surgry to see if the parvo caused any perment damage to her internal organs. Then we had anoter scare when she was due for knee surgry. She had a bad reaction to the Fentyal patch. She almost died that night. Our vets did everything they could for her and brought her back. Then our latest incedent was she ingested Decon, a comon rat/mouse posion. I had no idea my grandparents put it out. Luckly we caught it quick.. So it's been a wild ride. And it'll probally always be wild. She 5 1/2 yrs old and still hanging in there.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

It's hard to tell what may have happened. Could be a combination of things as well. But the good thing is she has a person that she can depend on. Even in tough times.


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## tparker (Sep 18, 2008)

Our dog Lily probably has it better than 90% of the dogs in the world and she gets
more attention than my wife and kids because she we need her to be more polite.
She runs around like crazy in the back yard for all out exercise and gets walked around the neighborhood for socialization with the prong. I only have so much time for her and am doing my best. I think she is part Shepherd and I've seen a lot of those kinds of dogs with prongs due to real high prey instinct.
Remember, a lot of us have saved these dogs from the gas chamber.....Thanks


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Jr. Dog Expert said:


> Ah yes, I've heard of the StarMark Collar, haven't seen any around here, but sounds like its an alternative for those that seem hesitant on using the Prong Collar. How is Allie responding to that?


Allie does ok with that. Its not nearly as affective as a prong collar is, but it doesn't make her more reactive like a prong does. I would say its a step above a martingale though. I have thought of switching the cloth closing part to a chain as I think the sound with the prong is part of the startling affect. I usually walk Allie with just a buckle collar now, and just verbally remind her to walk nice. I only use the starmark when training and if I know we are going into a situation where a flat collar won't do.


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