# Aggression in 9 Week Old Puppy?



## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

So I recently got an Australian Cattle Dog for a pet, a dog I have wanted for a very long time.

I got her at 8 and 1/2 weeks old and the first 4 days went great, she stayed glued to me at all times and walking her was easy as she stayed 1 step behind me. I started training her and it seems as if her attitude has gotten worse, rather than better. I have been following all the tips and advice on establishing myself as the dominant leader.

Sometimes she will come at me with adult dog aggression(which many have said she shouldn't even have at this age). This is not puppy play, or messing around, or a warning. I have seen all these behaviors from her, and this is pure aggression. It is very rare, but she will sometimes do it when I pick her up(which I have to because she often refuses to go down stairs), or she will do it when I have to do a very firm correction(Alpha Rolls etc, as soon as I take her to the ground she challenges me with a fierce growl and tries her best to bite me with full force.

However, I think it is just her nature to be too tough and stubborn for her own good. She absolutely cares not for any corrections. Negative, positive, and forceful, none of them seem to phase her. She absolutely hates going outside because its so hot out, and as soon as I'm outside with her on a leash, she fights it constantly, and none of the tips help, as she never gives me her attention or looks to me for guidance. Inside on a leash she does well, I think she is just overly stressed by the 100 degree weather.

-She will only take a treat if I literally place it in her mouth, which makes it very difficult to guide her behavior by luring her(she really has no interest in food when she is outside).

-Anything like spray bottles, loud noises(tin can w/ items), a firm "NO", a tug on the leash or collar is completely ignored. The dog is absolutely fearless, and anything that would scare her is something that would be big and loud enough to instantly crush her.

-Physical reprimands are met with challenge, however I never allow her to win them, which sometimes gets me bit pretty hard. Sometimes the only way to calm her down is to "alpha roll" her until she concedes. I never have or will strike or swat her, when i say physical reprimands, I refer to the same treatment her mother or litter mates would do.

-Yelling or yiping "OUCH!" only makes her enjoy biting more, since she gets a response out of it, she stopped showing remorse after the first few times she would mouth me, I'm fairly certain she knows she cant actually hurt me that much, and finds the yelling some sort of a game.

While most of these problems aren't really that bad, and aren't even done 100% of the time, I am just concerned they will continue. She trains very well when we are indoors, and it only takes her a few minutes to learn a new command. She knows Stay, Down, Off(stop jumping up on something), Hand Shake, and Roll over on her back, and to Go into her Crate(however this one she will only do with a very high reward treat, anything less she will ignore). Housebreaking is going excellent as well, overall she is doing quite well.

In the end, I am just looking for assurance on her overly aggressive behavior. Everyone who has seen her do it is completely shocked a puppy would act that way.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

jfaust said:


> I started training her and it seems as if her attitude has gotten worse, rather than better.* I have been following all the tips and advice* on establishing myself as the dominant leader.


Not from DF you haven't. 



> This is not puppy play, or messing around, or a warning. I have seen all these behaviors from her, and this is pure aggression. ...I have to do a very firm correction(Alpha Rolls etc, as soon as I take her to the ground she challenges me with a fierce growl and tries her best to bite me with full force.


What has your breeder said about 1) the aggression and 2)your corrective measures? 



> -She will only take a treat if I literally place it in her mouth, which makes it very difficult to guide her behavior by luring her(she really has no interest in food when she is outside).
> 
> -Anything like spray bottles, loud noises(tin can w/ items), a firm "NO", a tug on the leash or collar is completely ignored. The dog is absolutely fearless, and anything that would scare her is something that would be big and loud enough to instantly crush her.
> 
> -Physical reprimands are met with challenge, however I never allow her to win them, which sometimes gets me bit pretty hard. Sometimes the only way to calm her down is to "alpha roll" her until she concedes. I never have or will strike or swat her, when i say physical reprimands, I refer to the same treatment her mother or litter mates would do.


There's a lot here where your reprimands are likely contributing to the behavior. You need not be physical with the dog, and you need to find better motivators(reinforcers). 



> -Yelling or yiping "OUCH!" only makes her enjoy biting more, since she gets a response out of it, she stopped showing remorse after the first few times she would mouth me, I'm fairly certain she knows she cant actually hurt me that much, and finds the yelling some sort of a game.


Google "The Bite Stops Here." There are steps you are missing and or not completing. 



> In the end, I am just looking for assurance on her overly aggressive behavior. Everyone who has seen her do it is completely shocked a puppy would act that way.


To be honest it's hard to say without seeing the behavior, but nothing you've described sounds beyond puppy-ness.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks for the quick response, I appreciate it. My biggest issue, is in the 100s of articles on puppy/dog training I've read, 6 or so books, and 50ish videos I've watched(all within the last few weeks, as I have tried to prepare as best I could for the puppy's arrival), none of these seem to talk about what happens when it doesn't work. 

-Crate training, put dog in crate, leave dog in crate, in a few days dog will no longer cry. Congratulations your dog is now crate trained.

This is basically how most information is given. "if your dog pulls the leash, have them come with a treat and rewards them while the leash is lax, soon your dog will walk on a leash properly". However it doesn't talk about the problem when your dog simply will not come to you for a treat, toy, command or any other enticement.

I feel like I only get 1/2 the information, and its only the best case scenario information.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Not from DF you haven't.


Bit of an assumption, but if you could further elaborate and/or point out mentioned DF information, I would be happy to study it further.(I have actually gone through a number of articles, links, and sites in posts in DF regarding to issues I have been having. I wouldn't have created an account and made my first post on this matter if I did not feel there was valid information available here)



> What has your breeder said about 1) the aggression and 2)your corrective measures?


I have not yet contacted the breeder about this, I will today. Her description of the dogs personality was that of "gentle and sweet", which would be correct until recently(while she is gentle and sweet the majority, it is rather frustrating at times when she gets into a bad mood). My corrective measures come from a variety of well known web articles written and suggested by many experienced and respected ACD breeders/trainers.




> There's a lot here where your reprimands are likely contributing to the behavior. You need not be physical with the dog, and you need to find better motivators(reinforcers).


Could you specify? I only ever touch the dog 2% of the time, and only in very extreme cases(like when she is literally attacking my arm). I will attempt to find better motivators, that which she goes crazy for inside, completely lose all appeal when we are outdoors, so it isn't really so simple a task.



> Google "The Bite Stops Here." There are steps you are missing and or not completing.


I have read, and seen the video over this previously. All of the steps mentioned have been taken. Her puppy mouthing and biting is not the issue, in fact she mouths very gently, aside from the aggressive state in which I have mentioned(which of course is my biggest concern).



> To be honest it's hard to say without seeing the behavior, but nothing you've described sounds beyond puppy-ness.


I agree, I am just trying to find a good level to keep the training at. I know I have to be firm and patient, but not a push over. This is especially true for the breed, which while very intelligent were bred to be very tough and respond to aggression with their own aggression. If they get kicked by a cow, their response is to charge in and bite them even harder on the leg.


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## skitty56 (Jan 22, 2012)

You haven't given it nearly enough time, nothing is an instant fix. Give her a few weeks, or even months considering that she is very young.My last pup was 12 weeks or more before we even got out of the driveway with her on the leash, and puppy's bite/mouth/nip for quite a while, they're babies, give her a chance to figure out what you want before punishing her for what you don't.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> or she will do it when I have to do a very firm correction(Alpha Rolls etc, as soon as I take her to the ground she challenges me with a fierce growl and tries her best to bite me with full force.


No more "Alpha Rolling" - I'd bite you too if you pinned me to the ground. ACDs meet force with force, they're bred to do that. 



> She absolutely hates going outside because its so hot out,


Work on outside leash training late at night or early in the morning. You can also try wetting her down and working in the shade with a breeze.



> -She will only take a treat if I literally place it in her mouth, which makes it very difficult to guide her behavior by luring her(she really has no interest in food when she is outside)


Have you tried very high value treats like real chicken, beef, liver, cheese? 



> Physical reprimands are met with challenge, however I never allow her to win them, which sometimes gets me bit pretty hard.


Quit fighting with your dog. She's a puppy, she's not "challenging" you, she's acting on instinct. No physical reprimands- redirect to appropriate behavior, use a time out, ignore her etc. Use more thinking, less force. 



> I refer to the same treatment her mother or litter mates would do.


But you are not her mother, you are not a dog and she KNOWS that. If you know a well trained, puppy friendly adult dog with good bite inhibition and high energy, some playtime with that dog might help. But only an adult that knows how to deal gently but firmly with puppies. 



> Yelling or yiping "OUCH!" only makes her enjoy biting more, since she gets a response out of it,


Try a different noise. keep her leashed inside at all times and if she gets nippy, tuck the leash in a door or to a heavy piece of furniture and step away for a minute. Aka "my game (no biting) or no game at all"



> -Crate training, put dog in crate, leave dog in crate, in a few days dog will no longer cry. Congratulations your dog is now crate trained.


I have NEVER seen that as advice for truly crate training from any decent source. Google "crate games" which is a kind of progressive process (a few hours to start) of building a positive association with the crate and also training good behavior in it (like sit-and-wait when the door opens)



> In the end, I am just looking for assurance on her overly aggressive behavior. Everyone who has seen her do it is completely shocked a puppy would act that way.


It sounds like a normal puppy to me, one that is being riled up by your training techniques rather than calmed down by them.



> will attempt to find better motivators


Some dogs go crazy over fetch, tug, playing with water, etc. It is trial and error to find what motivates your dog


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> No more "Alpha Rolling" - I'd bite you too if you pinned me to the ground. ACDs meet force with force, they're bred to do that.
> 
> 
> Work on outside leash training late at night or early in the morning. You can also try wetting her down and working in the shade with a breeze.
> ...


Thanks for the response. I do try and work with the leash at more appropriate temperatures. I do know she enjoys being outside in the grass, at least when it is not so oppressively hot out.

I have used real meats for more difficult training to keep her motivated. I had to do this for the crate training, but she still hasn't developed a liking to it. She knows the crate equals being locked up, no matter how much positive reinforcement goes into it. However, after a minute or 2 she usually just takes a nap.

Many dog behaviorists will argue that dogs do in fact believe we are just odd looking 2 legged dogs, which is why many use training based from mother dog behaviors(obviously debatable). Why else would they suggest saying ouch, or ignoring the dog? this is exactly what other dogs do.

Obviously there was some sarcasm in my expression of crate training, but I was just emphasizing the lack of explanation when things go differently then expected. In the dog whisperer's book, he basically says that the dog will stop crying within 3 days, then never addresses the possibility of it not happening. Which seems misleading, and is almost the default for all training instructions. I do engage in crate games on a daily basis to drive home the positives of being in the crate.

I will adjust the actions I take in her training, and look for a change in her behavior. I do realize she is a puppy and these actions will change, I am just trying to find the correct way to guide her out of it. 1/2 the people say be dominant and let the dog knows who is boss, and the other 1/2 say never lay a finger on the dog or raise your voice.(and again, I am not saying hit the dog in anyway, when i refer to physical reprimands its things like nudging hind quarters, hold them down till they calm, muzzle them with your hand, etc)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> 1/2 the people say be dominant and let the dog knows who is boss, and the other 1/2 say never lay a finger on the dog or raise your voice.(and again, I am not saying hit the dog in anyway, when i refer to physical reprimands its things like nudging hind quarters, hold them down till they calm, muzzle them with your hand, etc)


There is a middle ground. 
First, I would never muzzle a dog with my hand- that is asking to get bitten. I would not hold them till they calm because I don't believe that it is a true comfortable, calm state but more of a fearful submissive state. 

I will use nudges, tugs (not yanks, not pops) on a leash attached to a harness, I'll tap the dog to get his attention, etc. Not reprimands but rather signals. 

My dog, and the other dogs I take in, know I am the boss but not because I overpower them or harass them. Think of a really good workplace environment. The boss is in charge, sure, but he listens to his employees and responds to their needs and supports their endeavors. In return, the employees try to do a good job because they know they are being treated well and they want to continue to have a good relationship with their boss. 

Give the crate time and continue to provide positive association. Maybe a treat or a toy that the dog loves but ONLY gets in the crate. 



> Why else would they suggest saying ouch, or ignoring the dog? this is exactly what other dogs do


Other dogs might do that, but ignoring a dog that wants to play (and for dogs, biting like that IS play) is more universal than just something dogs do. Parents give children "timeouts" which is basically the same thing. "Ouch" I think is more of something to startle the dog and tell the dog you don't like that action.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

Shell said:


> There is a middle ground.
> First, I would never muzzle a dog with my hand- that is asking to get bitten. I would not hold them till they calm because I don't believe that it is a true comfortable, calm state but more of a fearful submissive state.
> 
> I will use nudges, tugs (not yanks, not pops) on a leash attached to a harness, I'll tap the dog to get his attention, etc. Not reprimands but rather signals.
> ...


The temperature got to a more suitable place tonight before it got dark, so I was able to get some decent time on the leash. She was doing good for the most part, until she got too thirsty; and even though she would return after hitting the end of the leash and come back for a treat, she would immediatly head back towards the house where she knows where water is. I will start carrying some water with me in an attempt to keep her interested and cooler while outside.

I've been using a flexi leash, and she feels more comfortable with longer slack, as soon as I lock it to 4-6 feet she starts to fight it more than when I let it extend out further. I will gradually decrease the slack overtime until it keeps her near my side, hopefully she will adjust without really noticing.

I also took the advice from what you mentioned earlier of locking the leash down indoors if they bite and give them a time out. I locked down a chain leash(so she wont chew on it/through it) and hook her up to that during training sessions. If she gets into one of her overexcited bite fests(which saying ouch just makes her bite more) I simply walk away to my chair and turn my back to her till she calms down. It also helps with her trying to jump up and grab treats out of my hand when giving commands.

I also found it useful for reinforcing the "off" command, by placing something she would love to tear apart, like a paper towel, on top of her kennel, placed just far enough away so that she can get her front paws on top of it but not reach it with her mouth. Then I can stand opposite the room and reward as she gets off. She is a smart beast though, and will put paws on it then immediatly turn to me for a treat, attempting to trick me into being a snack dispenser!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

First, if you read some that suggests an "Alpha Roll" then that person is wrong!!! Don't list to any advice from that person, there are too many better sources... for example: here are two free downloads that answer many of your questions: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads 
Also, don't force or hold your dog down... you will teach the dog to learn aggression, instead of sweetness... But the damage can be reversed.

Second, dog know that we are Not dogs. Clinical research has demonstrated that dogs treat people very differently than other dogs.
The Bite Inhibition method uses a word or noise to mark the undesired behavior. You could also use a clicker, but that level of precision isn't needed. In fact, the pup's mother will snark a pup and bite the pup's neck to reprimand it. I don't suggest that you bite your pup, hair in your mouth will make you cough 


Re-read the Sticky:the Bite Stops Here. perhaps you haven't been sticking with it long enough. Read this and note the 3 days and the apology....She ignored the Yelp!, because you ignored the apology. Instead of the Yelp, you can say Ouch! or Oops! 

Some Tweaks to Bite Inhibition (to get her to stop biting when she wants to play or otherwise):
1. When the pup bites, then yelp. It should sound about like what the pup does when you step on its paw... don't step on her paw for a sample . When you yelp, the pup should startle briefly and stop nipping. Praise and pet. SHe'll bite.
2. When she bites the second time, Yelp. When she stops, praise and pet. SHe'll nip again, although it may be a little gentler. ...
3. When she bites a third time, Yelp (see a pattern?). But this time, turn your back for 15 - 30 secs. If she comes around and play bows or barks, then that is an apology. This is important. Accept it, praise and pet... and cringe in expectation of the next nip...
4. When she bites the 4th time, Yelp, then leave the area, placing her in a 2 min. time-out. It is better if you can leave, rather than moving her. Then, return and interact. (SHe's still hungry...)
5. When she nips the fifth time, yelp, and leave the area, stopping interaction for now.

You can modify the number of steps, but not what you do...

Pups need to sleep over night in order to learn their lessons. So, keep doing this for 3 days. By the third day, you should notice signficant Bite Inhibition. SHe may still nip, but it will be softer and she won't draw blood. And, she should be less aggressive, especially, if you notice the apology. Keep up the training and make sure that everyone yelps.... Very powerful method.

If you learn the technique, then you can apply the "yelp" to other circumstances, also. I believe that "yelp" is "Please don't do that, I don't like it." in dog communication. I currently use the yelp when my dog plays tug, then runs with the toy, when he fetches and keeps it out of reach or when he takes a treat too quickly.... 

You are Not trying to force the pup or be a dominant leader. You are trying to train the pup by communicating... Her genetic goal is to adapt to you. Once you communicate the rules, she will seem to read your mind, as you learn to be patient and consistent. Follow these principles, and she may never be aggressive again !


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## Rocky911 (Jul 25, 2012)

tons of great training info above so I won't repeat it but will add:
- she is young for doing tons of leash work. she is also not immunized yet so be careful where you walk her. For walks the rule of thumb is 5 minutes per month of age so 10 minutes max. You can do it twice a day. the rest of exercise should be off leash play, which she may need more of.
- look at socialization, especially with a breed that can be iffy with other dogs if not properly socialised. Find friendly dogs that are up to date on theri shots for her to interact with. Look at puppy classes, they will great help with both training and socialisation.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> First, if you read some that suggests an "Alpha Roll" then that person is wrong!!! Don't list to any advice from that person, there are too many better sources... for example: here are two free downloads that answer many of your questions: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads
> Also, don't force or hold your dog down... you will teach the dog to learn aggression, instead of sweetness... But the damage can be reversed.
> 
> Second, dog know that we are Not dogs. Clinical research has demonstrated that dogs treat people very differently than other dogs.
> ...


Thanks for the input, I think it is harder for her to understand my "yiping" since I cannot make a loud high pitched yelp or cry. I think me just yelling ouch sounds more like a bark to her. I will try and find something that will bring the proper reaction from her. Again though she doesn't seem to hold back on the next bite, in fact she tends to bite harder the more I ham it up with louder squeals.

**EDIT: Well I tried one last play session to tire her out before bed, and as soon as I yelped or made any displeasing noise when she mouthed me, she turned into a bite frenzy. This time she bit my hand so hard it punctured me several times and was bleeding. She never attempts to bite this hard during normal play, only when I react strongly to getting mouthed.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Not sure. It sounds like she was trying to bite more gently, and you still yelped, so she was frustrated ? Gotta praise her when she backs off or when she apologizes.... Each time she wakes up is somewhat of a re-set, so she may not chomp down again.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Sayin it again, you were gonna have a play session so maybe you wear long sleeve shirt light leather gloves so the bites don't hurt and draw blood, pups do grow out of a lot of this silly stuff. This is a 9 week old puppy not an alligator.

When you protect yourself you don't react so strongly.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

wvasko said:


> When you protect yourself you don't react so strongly.


I used my full-fingered bike gloves. (old ones) It helped me feel better about playing and provided some protection from those darn mini-razors (one of which I have! found it in his bed!!!) I also used an old sweat shirt- which has holes in the pockets and sleeves from my 2 puppies' learning periods!




jfaust said:


> Thanks for the input, I think it is harder for her to understand my "yiping" since I cannot make a loud high pitched yelp or cry. I think me just yelling ouch sounds more like a bark to her. I will try and find something that will bring the proper reaction from her. Again though she doesn't seem to hold back on the next bite, in fact she tends to bite harder the more I ham it up with louder squeals.


My husband is in the very low register with his voice and can't make the sound either. When a dog makes it is very loud and high! With consistency, the dogs learned his 'please stop' noise.


Crate Games with Susan Garrett is something a lot of people like. We have never crated, and so far have been OK.


I've also heard that at this age- which your dog is an infant- play is more important than training. Play tug, I hope for you the walking can continue, b/c you won't have to train loose leash later! I did not do this, and loose leash training has taken some time.

I, too have not found videos that helpful- it seems to me trainers use their Border Collies that already know the trick or skill? Useless. But kikopup does not do this. She has a wholelotta videos on You Tube.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I've also heard that at this age- which your dog is an infant- play is more important than training.


Doesn't that make sense, I would not want a 7 yr old child digging ditches. There is nothing wrong with fun/training pups but how many times have we seen people writing and asking why their 10 week old puppy has not followed or done the commands he did the day before. 

It's a puppy not a 10 week old robot.


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## ofthelogos (Mar 1, 2012)

jfaust said:


> Thanks for the input, I think it is harder for her to understand my "yiping" since I cannot make a loud high pitched yelp or cry. I think me just yelling ouch sounds more like a bark to her. I will try and find something that will bring the proper reaction from her. Again though she doesn't seem to hold back on the next bite, in fact she tends to bite harder the more I ham it up with louder squeals.
> 
> **EDIT: Well I tried one last play session to tire her out before bed, and as soon as I yelped or made any displeasing noise when she mouthed me, she turned into a bite frenzy. This time she bit my hand so hard it punctured me several times and was bleeding. She never attempts to bite this hard during normal play, only when I react strongly to getting mouthed.


Yipping can make some dogs _more_ excited and ramp them up. I would suggest a quiet "whoops" and ending all play in that instant. She will learn. The tether was a good idea 

Also, you've been reading the wrong books 

I suggest:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Puppy-Pri...8&qid=1344204124&sr=8-1&keywords=puppy+primer
http://www.amazon.com/How-Behave-Your-Dog-Behaves/dp/0793806445/ref=pd_sim_b_3
http://www.amazon.com/On-Talking-Terms-With-Dogs/dp/1929242360/ref=pd_sim_b_4
http://www.amazon.com/When-Pigs-Fly...&qid=1344204567&sr=1-17&keywords=dog+training
http://www.amazon.com/Dog-Sense-Sci...UTF8&qid=1344204725&sr=1-1&keywords=dog+sense
http://www.amazon.com/Reaching-Animal-Mind-Clicker-Training/dp/0743297776/ref=pd_sim_b_48

Have you found your way to these trainer's channels?
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF26FD559887E7EA4&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/user/domesticatedmanners?feature=results_main
http://www.youtube.com/user/tab289?feature=results_main
http://www.youtube.com/user/3lostdogs?feature=results_main


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

ofthelogos said:


> Yipping can make some dogs _more_ excited and ramp them up. I would suggest a quiet "whoops" and ending all play in that instant. She will learn. The tether was a good idea
> 
> Also, you've been reading the wrong books
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links, I've come acrossed a few of these, but will look at them and the others again. She is doing a little bit better after a day or 2 of changing the approaches in the teachings. After doing some research and reading topics on dogs in similar situations from Leerburg's site I feel much more comfortable with her behavior, and it is just normal with a puppy that has a very extreme prey drive.(the video showed a 10 week old corgi that acted very similar to how my puppy gets).

I have started doing new playtime activities(thankfully the weather is a bit cooler), which promotes her prey drive towards other objects and tires her out of the behavior during those sessions. I basically got a tie-down stake, a puppy tie-down wire, and a livestock whip. I attached some extra nylon rope to the end of the whip and then I tie some of her favorite toys to the string, and I have a tool I can use to have her chase around objects(far from my hands) and get all that prey drive energy worked out. It is fantastic exercise and playtime for her, and keeps me out of harms way. It is also a very easy environment for me to control her, since my hands are free(no need to hold leash). This way I can either just walk away from her, or rewards her with treats without juggling her control.

Some family members came by today while I was away visiting my brother, and they got her out and played with her and she did very good and made no attempts to bite. She is very gentle and submissive towards strangers, and it was a good socialization experience.

As for the earlier comments about training a puppy at 10 weeks, almost everything says this is a very important learning phase(8-16 weeks), and groundwork needs to be made in their training, especially for potentially aggressive dogs(which my puppy definitely is). I do nothing in her training that doesn't represent playtime and bonding between us. I exercise her mind, and she gets tasty food/toys and praise from it. I also do not force training, when she loses interest we shift to something like napping, chew time, or non-restricted play.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ofthelogos said:


> Yipping can make some dogs _more_ excited and ramp them up. I would suggest a quiet "whoops" and ending all play in that instant.0



This, this, and this!

You know how squeaky toys excite some dogs? So does high pitched yelping. Yelping at Kylie results in yelling and bouncing and general FRANTIC behavior. Just plain walking away works - and would work better if I did not have children who don't listen/forget to not let her play with her mouth. OTOH, she DOES inhibit how she bites, normally, because when she gets too rough the kids, however stubborn they are--

Get up and leave because it's not fun when it hurts.

**ETA:** I also agree with the people who said that at that age, play is more important than training. Formal training at that age is probably not going to stick, to be honest. A few REALLY short sessions a day - sit, loading a clicker, etc. is one thing. Expecting a 9 week old to be really well trained is another. At that stage, it's mostly down to management - prevent behaviors you don't want, positively reenforce those you do. Ie: Don't let them pee in the house, take them out often, stop play time when they nip, praise the puppy for outside pee, for coming to you in the house, and generally work on building a bond with your pup, house manners, and teaching them how to interact with people and to love you, first.

Kylie is stupid well behaved/trained for a slightly less than four month old puppy. She mostly walks well on a leash, she sits when she's told, she's got a pretty solid 30 second stay, she's basically housebroken (I won't call it at less than 6 months, but she's good about going to the door and asking to go out, should the door be closed (it's usually open, this time of year, for her.) has a good recall. The sit and stay are the only formal things we've worked on, and that's very, very mild. Mostly it's just consistent reenforcement of what we DO want, and ample opportunities to succeed combined with very, very limited opportunity to 'fail'. It's WORK, it's time consuming, it involves as much supervision as I'd give a human infant.

But it's working.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jfaust said:


> Thanks for the input, I think it is harder for her to understand my "yiping" since I cannot make a loud high pitched yelp or cry. I think me just yelling ouch sounds more like a bark to her. I will try and find something that will bring the proper reaction from her. Again though she doesn't seem to hold back on the next bite, in fact she tends to bite harder the more I ham it up with louder squeals.
> 
> **EDIT: Well I tried one last play session to tire her out before bed, and as soon as I yelped or made any displeasing noise when she mouthed me, she turned into a bite frenzy. This time she bit my hand so hard it punctured me several times and was bleeding. She never attempts to bite this hard during normal play, only when I react strongly to getting mouthed.


I would take it the opposite direction. get quiet, get still. If you walk away, do it slow and deliberate. It sounds like your behavior is getting her over-aroused.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

jfaust said:


> As for the earlier comments about training a puppy at 10 weeks, almost everything says this is a very important learning phase(8-16 weeks), and groundwork needs to be made in their training, especially for potentially aggressive dogs(which my puppy definitely is). I do nothing in her training that doesn't represent playtime and bonding between us. I exercise her mind, and she gets tasty food/toys and praise from it. I also do not force training, when she loses interest we shift to something like napping, chew time, or non-restricted play.


This is advice from Susan Garret to play, not train. She'd got wonderful blogs and even online classes.

Ian Dunbar's books are free and really helpful. He lays out the priorities and goals for these developmental times. I found them very, very,very useful. I hope you do, too.

Good luck!

You know your dog, but I can't help but wonder if some of her 'aggression' is from the way you were treating her with the antiquated training techniques- it sounds like she felt the need to defend herself.

I also use a flirt pole- one of my dogs LOVES it.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

Or in the case of a 10 week old, like a 2 year old digging ditches! 



wvasko said:


> Doesn't that make sense, I would not want a 7 yr old child digging ditches. There is nothing wrong with fun/training pups but how many times have we seen people writing and asking why their 10 week old puppy has not followed or done the commands he did the day before.
> 
> It's a puppy not a 10 week old robot.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

titiaamor said:


> This is advice from Susan Garret to play, not train.
> 
> Ian Dunbar's books are free and really helpful. He lays out the priorities and goals for these developmental times. I found them very, very,very useful. I hope you do, too.
> 
> ...


First of all, she started to "viciously, bite me" long before I used any sort of stern correction. I know she is not viciously attacking me, but after a few times the only way to get her to settle down was to physically take the movement out of her. When I am sitting on the ground, and she repeatidly lunges and bites me with full force, I cannot simply "walk away" or give her a "time out" without calming her down first. Any person who is not a professional trainer would have grabbed the dog and put her in a position in which she can no longer harm them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

jfaust said:


> First of all, she started to "viciously, bite me" long before I used any sort of stern correction. I know she is not viciously attacking me, but after a few times the only way to get her to settle down was to physically take the movement out of her. When I am sitting on the ground, and she repeatidly lunges and bites me with full force, I cannot simply "walk away" or give her a "time out" without calming her down first. Any person who is not a professional trainer would have grabbed the dog and put her in a position in which she can no longer harm them.


Sure - but what's keeping you from pushing her away, and standing up ? She's a 9 week old ACD. She simply is not that big. She is not big enough to keep you on the ground. Just - stand up, turn around and ignore the blazes out of her. I'm not saying you're terrifying her, or hurting her - I doubt that, actually. I do not, however, doubt for a second that physically moving her has become part of the game, or that getting a reaction is some kind of rewarding for her. If it wasn't *she wouldn't keep doing it*.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Lots of good advice here. Not much to add other than to have lots and lots of patience. Our dog was a demon dog as a puppy, inexhaustible and only wanted to play, play, play. We went through four leashes she chewed up learning to loose leash walk. She was a fence jumper. She destroyed things. We were her favorite chew toys. A trainer recommended alpha rolling. We did it a couple of times and quickly realized that it had the exact opposite effect and made her more aggressive, god help us. We stopped working with that trainer and used the method outlined above for puppy biting. She got it eventually and grew out of it. We gave up on all that alpha/leader crap (and it is crap) and just worked with her, with patience, finding the things that motivated her (wasn't food, but she would leap for a paper towel) to get the behaviors we wanted.

The plus side of her personality was that she was the most fun puppy you can imagine. No matter what challenge I threw at her, she could beat it. I had to invent new games all the time to keep up with her. And it was a blast. Yes, there were times I wanted to tear my hair out. But it was a privilege to have such an animal in my life. She has slowed down a lot, but she still keeps me guessing. And her capacity for learning still amazes me. 

Enjoy her. She sounds like a dream puppy to me. 

P.S. Remember that moving arms and hands look like toys and most puppies will get excited at the movement and want to bite and mouth. Redirect to a tug toy when that happens. And when she gets too excited...be...a....tree....


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

jfaust said:


> First of all, she started to "viciously, bite me" long before I used any sort of stern correction. I know she is not viciously attacking me, but after a few times the only way to get her to settle down was to physically take the movement out of her. When I am sitting on the ground, and she repeatidly lunges and bites me with full force, I cannot simply "walk away" or give her a "time out" without calming her down first. Any person who is not a professional trainer would have grabbed the dog and put her in a position in which she can no longer harm them.


Just saw this -- why can't you simply walk away? The things you are doing _are_ what is exciting her! Walking away _is _what you need to do to calm her down. You are the stimulus. Remove yourself! Don't ignore the power that ignoring a puppy has -- it's one of the most important tools in your puppy management box.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

jfaust said:


> I started training her and it seems as if her attitude has gotten worse, rather than better. I have been following all the tips and advice on establishing myself as the dominant leader.
> 
> It is very rare, but she will sometimes do it when I pick her up(which I have to because she often refuses to go down stairs), or she will do it when I have to do a very firm correction(Alpha Rolls etc, as soon as I take her to the ground she challenges me with a fierce growl and tries her best to bite me with full force. Physical reprimands are met with challenge, however I never allow her to win them, which sometimes gets me bit pretty hard. Sometimes the only way to calm her down is to "alpha roll" her until she concedes. I never have or will strike or swat her, when i say physical reprimands, I refer to the same treatment her mother or litter mates would do.


I was responding to this when I mentioned antiquated methods- particularly dominant leader, alpha rolls, take her to the ground, and never let her win. the original researcher later admitted these were acquired through misperception and has withdrawn the research.

I also wanted to mention that I only picked up my dogs in emergencies and when they were peeing where they shouldn't. I have a pit mix and a rotti mix, and the pit mis really didn't like it, so we figured out ways to get them to move under their own power- like running quickly where we wanted them to go.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

titiaamor said:


> the original researcher later admitted these were acquired through misperception and has withdrawn the research.
> 
> .


And, the guy (Job Michael Evans, late Monk of New Skete) later said that he regretted popularizing the idea of the "alpha roll" since it contained such a danger of a bite.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

winniec777 said:


> Just saw this -- why can't you simply walk away? The things you are doing _are_ what is exciting her! Walking away _is _what you need to do to calm her down. You are the stimulus. Remove yourself! Don't ignore the power that ignoring a puppy has -- it's one of the most important tools in your puppy management box.


as mentioned, I am sitting on the ground, and pushing her away makes her respond with even more aggression. Pushing her away will not stop her from biting, it only worsens it, she can lunge back and bite me before i can even retract my hand after a push. So.. i push her away, then start to stand up, then take a bite to the face? She was off leash, so standing up, I took bites to the groin and legs, then when i turn to ignore her I take bites to the back of the leg. If i begin to walk away, she will chase and continue to bite. Which is why I will now have protection, redirection, or leash control from now on, until the behavior is stopped.

at any rate, I have taken measures to prevent us both from getting into this situation again. I just find it down right hilarious when people can just assume a simple task is so easy when you are in pain. Again, this is not any sort of puppy biting I have ever witnessed, or heard described. The few people who have seen it were in complete shock, all of which have had dogs their whole lives. The situation is clearly not within the norm. If she had done it to any dog trainer, under the conditions I was in(not expecting it, and not having any protection for yourself) would have physically corrected the dog.

But apparently doing it 1 time, makes my practice barbaric and in everyone's eyes routine. As if I stand around all day waiting for a chance to abuse my puppy. This is why I sought after help from others, so I can improve my own behavior as well as the puppy's. Having to have physically corrected my puppy broke my heart, as I have been eagerly awaiting an ACD for over 12 years. I would love nothing more than to have puppy time and cuddle with the dog. Friends and family told me I should just get rid of her now before serious attachment, and I told them no way, because I know there is an appropriate solution and will get better with time(which it already has, thanks to the helpful posts of others).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jfaust said:


> as mentioned, I am sitting on the ground, and pushing her away makes her respond with even more aggression. Pushing her away will not stop her from biting, it only worsens it, she can lunge back and bite me before i can even retract my hand after a push. So.. i push her away, then start to stand up, then take a bite to the face? She was off leash, so standing up, I took bites to the groin and legs, then when i turn to ignore her I take bites to the back of the leg. If i begin to walk away, she will chase and continue to bite. Which is why I will now have protection, redirection, or leash control from now on, until the behavior is stopped.
> .


It sounds like she perceives you pushing on her as "play" Some puppies "play" very rough.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> It sounds like she perceives you pushing on her as "play" Some puppies "play" very rough.


I agree, they are a very physical breed, in fact they have desensitized pain receptors which leads to their "belief in their own indestructibility". Which is why this breed does not respond to any physical punishment like pushing, shoving, slapping, nudging, hitting.

Which is generally why many of the sources on ACDs suggested alpha rolls, holding them down, etc, as this does not hurt them but mentally removes their assumption as indestructible, unstoppable, dominant dog.

They also respond well to time outs, especially the kind where they can still see you but not interact. Which is the route I will be going from now on. She was overly excited this morning and started to bite and bark, and so I shut her leash in the glass door for a timeout, after that she came back and was doing some gentle mouthing but got worked up again, so she had another timeout. I'm sure after a few days of timeouts she will start to understand.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

jfaust said:


> as mentioned, I am sitting on the ground,


I don't know why, but my dogs see sitting on the ground as *the* prime invitation to play, and play more and more rough if I stay there. They've mellowed in the last year, but laying down gets them really going now. It was so intense with mouthy Bob, that I didn't sit on the ground until they were about 6 months old! It was just too exciting for him.

Did you really only physically correct one time? You wrote about alpha rolls and taking her to the ground as if it was your way of training.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

titiaamor said:


> I don't know why, but my dogs see sitting on the ground as *the* prime invitation to play, and play more and more rough if I stay there. They've mellowed in the last year, but laying down gets them really going now. It was so intense with mouthy Bob, that I didn't sit on the ground until they were about 6 months old! It was just too exciting for him.
> 
> Did you really only physically correct one time? You wrote about alpha rolls and taking her to the ground as if it was your way of training.


I never alpha rolled her until she got to the point where I couldn't control her, or she turned offensive during a correction like picking her up. I had read many articles about ACDs specifically and how almost every single person who raised them suggested doing it, if it gets too out of hand. I have only ever done 1 alpha roll that would be considered an aggressive move on my part, and I have picked her up by the scruff before to immobilize her when she was latched onto my arm and I was bleeding. In my first post I also shouldn't have used the word dominant, "Leader" was what I should have used. I am not trying to dominate her, just show her I'm the leader and she should look to me for guidance.

I have gently put her on the ground and kept her there till she calmed down, almost like an alpha roll but I never did the staring growl thing associated with it.

Another note, is that she absolutely hates to be "gentled" most handling she is ok with, she doesn't really like to sit on laps or be held much, but if shes sitting or laying down she enjoys being touched and you can mess with her ears, legs, and paws without issues.

However, as soon as you put her on her back or try and cradle her like they suggest for "gentling" she goes absolutely nuts, and growls and snaps and bites. I have started doing some gentling with very high value treats to keep her calm. I had her on her back in my arms for about 15 minutes this morning off/on with little resistance(she loves chicken to much to fight). I think that a week or so of that will make her more willing to cuddle and be handled.

As suggested by previous posters, I read through Ian Dunbars book, and he said that the unwillingness to be gentled is a big red flag, so I have that in top priority to correct in the next 2 weeks before she breaks the 12 week mark.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> As suggested by previous posters, I read through Ian Dunbars book, and he said that the unwillingness to be gentled is a big red flag, so I have that in top priority to correct in the next 2 weeks before she breaks the 12 week mark.


Wow, I'll bet your pup never even read Ian Dunbar's book. Pup's are not on a learning/maturing/gentling time schedule. 

I think Ian has not met your pup who could be an exception to his 12 week rule. Not mine.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jfaust said:


> I "Leader" was what I should have used. I am not trying to dominate her, just show her I'm the leader and she should look to me for guidance.
> 
> I have gently put her on the ground and kept her there till she calmed down, almost like an alpha roll but I never did the staring growl thing associated with it.
> 
> ...


The thing is, you don't have to physically intimidate a dog to become a good leader. You need to formulate a training plan and give her clear, appropriate rules for her age. I hope when you said you picked her up by her scruff, you didn't really mean off the floor. A new born puppy picked up by mom is considerably lighter than a 9 week old ACD. Besides which mother dogs rarely actually pick the pup up by the scruff, but gently around the body. You could separate skin from muscle.

My experience is that there are a lot of breeders and "breed experts" out there who are seriously stuck in the 1970s and have very little knowledge about behavior. The good news is, you don't have to "gentle" her by physical intimidation, in fact that's likely to get the opposite effect (which is what you are currently experiencing). Get some treats. Touch a part of her body she doesn't object to - treat. Gradually increase the amount of touching you can do without frightening her (puppies often freak out when restrained, especially if they have been restrained roughly). Teach her that being touched and lightly held is a wonderful thing accompanied by the very best of treats.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Wow, I'll bet your pup never even read Ian Dunbar's book. Pup's are not on a learning/maturing/gentling time schedule.
> 
> I think Ian has not met your pup who could be an exception to his 12 week rule. Not mine.


I agree, and it doesn't state that they will not learn past that mark, only that the habit becomes more ingrained and tougher to break through adolescence as compared to overcoming it when they are very young. If it can be remedied now without having longer drawn out issues as an adolescence, I see no reason to not try and resolve it now, as it will be more a fun and less stressful time for both of us.

I just had another good handling session with her, keeping her calm with chicken rewards as I have her cradled, sitting back against me, and laying on her back. She had less resistance than any other time, and during the breaks where I let her down to roam a bit, she would just turn right around and start begging for more chicken.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

The puppy is only 9 or so weeks old ?
Im pretty sure that "Pinning It To The Ground " Will be a great way to break the trust between you and your puppy forever.

Did you happen to notice how the puppy behaves after you Alpha Roll it?
It walks away with its tail between its legs..and looking back at you with cow eyes.

You may have just lost the trust of your puppy forever.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

Roloni said:


> The puppy is only 9 or so weeks old ?
> Im pretty sure that "Pinning It To The Ground " Will be a great way to break the trust between you and your puppy forever.
> 
> Did you happen to notice how the puppy behaves after you Alpha Roll it?
> ...


she is almost 10 and 1/2 weeks old now. What happened when I alpha rolled her is she looked away, whined, stopped struggling after a few seconds. Then I let her up, and she stood up, then walked right back over to me and and did her mouthing/scratching rollover on my foot.

I have seen dogs described as "hard" referring to their stubborn attitude and forgiveness towards very harsh punishment. I would definitely describe her as "hard". She is aggressive, independent, and will ignore/not cower away from any sort of reprimand, be it physical, verbal, or emotional.

For me to have lost her trust, she would have to of been a pretty timid dog to start with, I personally don't see it happening based off those 2 incidents. Her behavior has improved quite a bit in just 3-4 days. 

We just had our first really good walk, she didn't fight the leash at all, and when she would stop to sniff something, I would call her and she would come back to my side fairly quickly. She also didn't try to do much leading(forging ahead and pulling), as soon as she hit the end of the leash, she would stop and come back to me, and that was only when we were going back towards the house(which she gets excited because she knows she gets water after going outside, since its so hot out).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jfaust said:


> I have seen dogs described as "hard" referring to their stubborn attitude and forgiveness towards very harsh punishment. I would definitely describe her as "hard". She is aggressive, independent, and will ignore/not cower away from any sort of reprimand, be it physical, verbal, or emotional.


All the more reason to choose methods which encourage her cooperation rather than her resistance. Looking for ways to train with positive reinforcement REALLY works will with strong minded dogs. And it does sound that you made some good progress on handling.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

I feel more and more sad as I read your posts. It sounds like you have your mind made up- she's aggressive and you have to be physical with her. 

FWIW, I think you are creating the problems from what you have written.

I'm not an expert, but she reminds me a lot if my Bob when he was a baby. 

Good luck to you and God bless your baby dog.



jfaust said:


> she is almost 10 and 1/2 weeks old now. What happened when I alpha rolled her is she looked away, whined, stopped struggling after a few seconds. Then I let her up, and she stood up, then walked right back over to me and and did her mouthing/scratching rollover on my foot.
> I have seen dogs described as "hard" referring to their stubborn attitude and forgiveness towards very harsh punishment. I would definitely describe her as "hard". She is aggressive, independent, and will ignore/not cower away from any sort of reprimand, be it physical, verbal, or emotional.
> 
> For me to have lost her trust, she would have to of been a pretty timid dog to start with, I personally don't see it happening based off those 2 incidents. Her behavior has improved quite a bit in just 3-4 days.
> ...


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

titiaamor said:


> I feel more and more sad as I read your posts. It sounds like you have your mind made up- she's aggressive and you have to be physical with her.
> 
> FWIW, I think you are creating the problems from what you have written.



Bingo. <too short>


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

titiaamor said:


> I feel more and more sad as I read your posts. It sounds like you have your mind made up- she's aggressive and you have to be physical with her.
> 
> FWIW, I think you are creating the problems from what you have written.
> 
> ...


I feel sorry for you for making judgments and not reading nearly all of my replies. I have said several times I have no plans to be physical with her, nor have I done anything physical with her since my original post. I have also mentioned she is making progress already, so naturally I will continue using positive reinforcement and creating an environment in which she cannot do this type of behavior(since it seems to be working well).

I really don't think I need to defend myself anymore. This dog has better treatment than 99.9% of the dogs on the planet. I figured asking for advice would show I am open to learning and change and doing whats best, but whatever. Do I believe she is aggressive? not in the traditional sense of aggression as being mean/dangerous. However she obviously has a very strong prey drive and is a high energy dog. She would most likely become the dominant dog in any dog group. I do not feel she will be an aggressive or bad mannered dog later in life, as I will do what is necessary to prevent this. I have every bit of confidence she will do well, and if the new teaching methods fail, I will find a new way to do it, or seek professional help. Since I have already seen great improvements, I don't think it will be necessary.


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> All the more reason to choose methods which encourage her cooperation rather than her resistance. Looking for ways to train with positive reinforcement REALLY works will with strong minded dogs. And it does sound that you made some good progress on handling.


Ya I was very happy today, she did very well, vast improvements over previous days(she is sleeping with her head on my shoe as I write this). The handling is fantastic, and I anticipate she wont even fuss anymore if hold her on her back. My original post was just out of frustration(3 bad days in a row) and ignorance. I feel much more calm and comfortable around her after learning her behavior was just over-stimulated puppy play. Now that I know she isn't attempting to be vicious my calm body language helps keep her more relaxed.

I also have a better grasp on her personality and what will work better for her in the training. Fresh meat is the secret, chicken breast I can cook on the grill is basically the same price as a bag of treats and she is much more motivated for it than dog specific foods.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jfaust said:


> Ya I was very happy today, she did very well, vast improvements over previous days(she is sleeping with her head on my shoe as I write this). The handling is fantastic, and I anticipate she wont even fuss anymore if hold her on her back. My original post was just out of frustration(3 bad days in a row) and ignorance. I feel much more calm and comfortable around her after learning her behavior was just over-stimulated puppy play. Now that I know she isn't attempting to be vicious my calm body language helps keep her more relaxed.
> 
> I also have a better grasp on her personality and what will work better for her in the training. Fresh meat is the secret, chicken breast I can cook on the grill is basically the same price as a bag of treats and she is much more motivated for it than dog specific foods.


Good deal. And don't be discouraged on the forum. You made some mistakes, but it sounds like you are earnest about learning. A suggestion, don't get TOO hung up about getting her on her back. Actually, getting her to lay comfortably on her side may be less scary and more useful (for things like vet exams and doing toenails


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> Good deal. And don't be discouraged on the forum. You made some mistakes, but it sounds like you are earnest about learning. A suggestion, don't get TOO hung up about getting her on her back. Actually, getting her to lay comfortably on her side may be less scary and more useful (for things like vet exams and doing toenails


Thanks,

Yeah, when I try and do the handling I do a variety of positions, sitting on lap, craddled in arms, and side and/or back on either the floor or bed. She naturally lies on her side and back when she wants attention and rubs, but it is a whole other task when she isn't the one deciding to get in that position. If it seems too stressful I keep it short and let her down to relax a bit and do dog stuff.

Since she is also doing well with the housebreaking I have been giving her more and more time out of the crate, which I think keeps her from stressing and feeling coup'ed up too much(I imagine this helps diffuse some energy as well so she doesn't feel the need to go crazy during play time). I can usually tell when she needs to go out, but tonight she actually walked up to the door in her room, sat down and whined at it. I took her out and she immediately went on her spot outside. As long as she can keep doing that she can get lots more time to hang out and have standard interactions with myself and others.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Terrific! Keep up the practice... Now back to that 12/14 week thing 

Unrelated to Ian Dunbar's advice, when she reaches about 4 mos, she will begin to lose her baby teeth and her adult teeth will start to grow in. Not a big deal, and you might not even notice it. Except if her mouth is sore, she may be irritable, and may appear to backtrack. It really can be as quick as a one or two day transition from sweet puppy back to vampire. 

If this occurs, stay the course and continue doing what you've already done that is working, and work through it for about 2 weeks to a month, and she'll come through it with the same sweet personality, maybe a bit older and more independent. 

Now, time to teach sheep herding or treibball ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFpH_WLC4qs )


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## jfaust (Aug 3, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> Terrific! Keep up the practice... Now back to that 12/14 week thing
> 
> Unrelated to Ian Dunbar's advice, when she reaches about 4 mos, she will begin to lose her baby teeth and her adult teeth will start to grow in. Not a big deal, and you might not even notice it. Except if her mouth is sore, she may be irritable, and may appear to backtrack. It really can be as quick as a one or two day transition from sweet puppy back to vampire.
> 
> ...


Ya, I expect some mouth issues during teething, which I will keep in mind.

Thanks for the video, this was an activity I was interested in doing with her. She already has a red "playground" ball that she will chase/push/tackle since its too big to get in her mouth. I may look into doing some flyball when she is older, it looks like good fun.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

Oh, I didn't realize you were defending past actions, I thought you were justifying current and future actions.

I'm happy to hear things are moving forward and you have an open mind about positive training principles.



jfaust said:


> I feel sorry for you for making judgments and not reading nearly all of my replies. I have said several times I have no plans to be physical with her, nor have I done anything physical with her since my original post. I have also mentioned she is making progress already, so naturally I will continue using positive reinforcement and creating an environment in which she cannot do this type of behavior(since it seems to be working well).
> 
> I really don't think I need to defend myself anymore. This dog has better treatment than 99.9% of the dogs on the planet. I figured asking for advice would show I am open to learning and change and doing whats best, but whatever. Do I believe she is aggressive? not in the traditional sense of aggression as being mean/dangerous. However she obviously has a very strong prey drive and is a high energy dog. She would most likely become the dominant dog in any dog group. I do not feel she will be an aggressive or bad mannered dog later in life, as I will do what is necessary to prevent this. I have every bit of confidence she will do well, and if the new teaching methods fail, I will find a new way to do it, or seek professional help. Since I have already seen great improvements, I don't think it will be necessary.


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