# Will do beginner agility starting in March, and a question



## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm excited that I signed up for a beginner agility class. I talked to the lady in charge and she was very nice and explained a lot of things to me. She said he didn't really need to have any training before starting (he will be done with a basic agility class by that time though). She did say that if we worked on sit stays before the class started we'd be more than ready.

Here's my question though... Somehow Lenny got the idea that sit stay means sit then lie down then stay. Almost every time I start taking steps back (mostly doing one step back, then forward, then treat) he will plop into a down. What I've been doing is if I see him start to go into a down I go back up to him quickly with a treat and hold it up, so he can't get it if he's lying down. If I miss it and he goes all the way down I turn around and say "oops" walk away so he follows and then try again. 

Any good tips for teaching him sit stay means SIT and stay not DOWN and stay?

He does down fine, but maybe I should have waited to get sit/stay first before teaching him down. Should I quit working on down for now, or keep working on that in the hopes that he will realize down is different from sit?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

In our AAC Agility the dogs must lie down on the table so I taught Lucy the Down first. It did take a little longer to get her to sit on command intstead of lying down. What I did was tell her to SIT and immediately click and treat as soon as she sat before she had a chance to lie down. I kept doing that until she knew what SIT meant before I started to move away from her. If she did lie down, I would just step back and get her to sit again. Don't try and move away very far so you are right there to put her back into the sit. They get it eventually.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

You need the sit stay for class. Practice that first until he understands what you want. You will need attention skills as there will be a lot of excitment in class (other dogs, people) unless you are taking private lessons. Work your dog on both your left and right side everyone (and every dog) has a side that they are more comfortable with. When you take the one step back are you facing your dog or are you beside your dog?


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

Okay, that sounds similar to what I'm doing. I do treat immediately after he sits and then treat each time I take a step back and then forward again. I can usually keep him sitting as long as I'm only taking one step back, unless I pause for too long.

We're you able to get her up from a down and into a sit? I can't get Lenny back into a sit without having him stand up again first.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

agility collie mom said:


> You need the sit stay for class. Practice that first until he understands what you want. You will need attention skills as there will be a lot of excitment in class (other dogs, people) unless you are taking private lessons. Work your dog on both your left and right side everyone (and every dog) has a side that they are more comfortable with. When you take the one step back are you facing your dog or are you beside your dog?


I am in front of him, but the agility lady said that was okay for now. Maybe I will start to work that in. Is there a specific command for which side, or you just have them sit on whichever side of your body they are at the moment? We work on attention skills too. This will actually probably be the hardest thing to overcome. I'm working on attention during walks. There are a few places in the neighborhood that have dogs on fences. We work a lot on attention as we approach and pass these yards. It's getting better, but not perfect that's for sure.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

You may be inadvertently leaning forward when you step back which may be making him down. You do not need a specific command for which side. Work walking circles with him beside you in the yard (both sides) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaE5F5Tq4Qo


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

Thanks. I will check to make sure I am not leaning back. And thanks for the video. I will have to try to work up to that.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Great you have set a goal. Would love to see your pup. Where are you taking classes? I have friends in Ohio.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

Queen City dog training.

Here's my puppers, not your typical agility dog, lol, but I'm hoping it will be fun at least.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

How old is your pup? With a big breed dog you should not start doing any jumping or weaves until they are at least one year old. I don't know what they teach in the basic Agility, just hope you have not been doing much jumping with him yet. With Lucy, I put her through an Obedience class first, then started in Foundation Agility when she was 10 months old but did not do weaves or jump over 6" till this year when she is over a year old. She is a small dog, Shih Tzu x Maltese.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

He's 6 months. Not a big breed, he shouldn't be more than 30 lbs full grown. Haven't done any jumping other than the jumping he just naturally does. No weaving, and they don't start any of that stuff in the beginner class, just foundations. The only thing I've done at home besides basic obedience is made two pvc poles about 2 ft apart. I throw his teddy bear through and have him run between the poles to get the bear. 

The lady told me they play a lot of learning games in the basic agility class (like getting into a box to develop rear end awareness) and then work on start line stays and stuff like that. I'm sure I missed a lot of what she was telling me because I don't know the lingo. It seems like they are very aware of safety issues related to age and general health.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Cute pup. Puggle? I don't run your typical breed in agility either. Rough collies. I googled your club looks very nice. My friends take classes in Washingtonville Oh. I compete in CPE. Train and teach in a very small club in PA.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

Cool. Actually I don't know where Washingtonville is, lol. We are not ohio natives.

I assumed from your screen name and your interest in agility that you had BCs.

Yes he's a pug beagle mix. We adopted him about a month ago from a family that couldn't give him enough time. He's a sweetie, and loves to please, unless there's a bird to chase.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Cute little guy! I bet you guys will have a lot of fun.

Watson has the sit/down confusion sometimes as well. To get him back into a sit, I will walk up to him until I'm almost on top of him, say "sit", and in an effort to look up into my eyes he will sit. Sometimes I lure a bit with my hand if he doesn't get it, but no treats. This wouldn't work for all dogs, especially those who don't like people standing almost over them, but he understands my body language in this case and it works well for him. Once he's sitting, I will take a small step away, then reward it and he usually holds the sit at that point and I can move further away.

Also spend a lot of time just asking for and rewarding the sit. Leave down alone for a couple days and he'll get the idea that sit is the game, then try a sit/stay and see how he does. Once he's consistent on that, add down back in.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Hey just wanted to let you know they held Doberman Nationals at your facility last year and my friend was there with her dogs. She said that the footing is wonderful there. It is some of the best she has ever run her dogs on! Luck you! Keep us updated.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

It's great that you are working on straightening this issue out, but for agility it really does not matter if your dog does a sit stay or a down stay. The only important thing is that they stay. Some trainers actually choose to put their dog in a down stay instead of a sit. The reason you need a stay is so that you can set your dog in front of an obstacle and then go ahead of them before starting. It may be easier for the dog to start from a sit than a down, but the dogs are less likely to break a down stay than a sit. For the pause table in most agility venues it does not matter what position the dog is in, except there is one that requires that the dog always does a down on the table. So if you want to run in multiple venues then having a down as a default on the table is a good idea.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kylie and I are starting a basic agility class 4-2. For someone who said that they didn't want to do agility, I am over the MOON.

(And she always stays in front of me. Clearly we can work on some left/right stuff for stays about now )


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

samshine said:


> It's great that you are working on straightening this issue out, but for agility it really does not matter if your dog does a sit stay or a down stay. The only important thing is that they stay. Some trainers actually choose to put their dog in a down stay instead of a sit. The reason you need a stay is so that you can set your dog in front of an obstacle and then go ahead of them before starting. It may be easier for the dog to start from a sit than a down, but the dogs are less likely to break a down stay than a sit. For the pause table in most agility venues it does not matter what position the dog is in, except there is one that requires that the dog always does a down on the table. So if you want to run in multiple venues then having a down as a default on the table is a good idea.


I thought they were changing it in USDAA too? I thought they said that at our trial but could be wrong.

Mia struggles with stays a lot. She stays well... until you put an obstacle in front of her. Her drive for action/to work is too much. We dealt with creeper dog for a while. Solution? 1) If I need a lead out then someone can hold her put. 2) You don't want to lead out for every exercise either so we'd just start from a run. Then at home I can do some solid work with her start lines without taking up the whole class worrying about making sure she doesn't cheat. I am now back to leading out in class with her staying (most the time, still a work in progress).


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

samshine said:


> It's great that you are working on straightening this issue out, but for agility it really does not matter if your dog does a sit stay or a down stay. The only important thing is that they stay. Some trainers actually choose to put their dog in a down stay instead of a sit. The reason you need a stay is so that you can set your dog in front of an obstacle and then go ahead of them before starting. It may be easier for the dog to start from a sit than a down, but the dogs are less likely to break a down stay than a sit. For the pause table in most agility venues it does not matter what position the dog is in, except there is one that requires that the dog always does a down on the table. So if you want to run in multiple venues then having a down as a default on the table is a good idea.


Ah, I didn't know that. I thought it did matter. That's good. He's doing better with it, but will still go into a down sometimes if he gets bored with me. Lol.

He's doing pretty well with stay as long as I'm there in his eyesight. I can tell him to stay, and throw his favorite teddy bear and he will stay until I tell him, "free, go get the bear". If I just throw the bear and say, "go get it" he takes right off. If I tell him to stay and then throw treats, all bets are off. Lol. I've abandoned that for now, although he'll do leave it for treats.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Kylie and I are starting a basic agility class 4-2. For someone who said that they didn't want to do agility, I am over the MOON.
> 
> (And she always stays in front of me. Clearly we can work on some left/right stuff for stays about now )


Fun! I can't wait to hear how Kylie does!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Spazmelda said:


> Fun! I can't wait to hear how Kylie does!


Me either! LOL.

Her favorite game EVER is targeting, so I'm hopeful, at least for this class. 

She's kind of wary of heights, so we'll see about that at some point. I think she'll be okay, though.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Teacup agility requires either a down, sit or stand on the table. The judge determines what is to be performed prior to running the course. I use a down lead out with Savannah and a sit lead out with Rio. A soft dog should never be asked to do a lead out sit/down as it is demotivating. Hercules is a soft dog so we just run from the start line together. Squeak does a sit lead out.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

agility collie mom said:


> Teacup agility requires either a down, sit or stand on the table. The judge determines what is to be performed prior to running the course. I use a down lead out with Savannah and a sit lead out with Rio. A soft dog should never be asked to do a lead out sit/down as it is demotivating. Hercules is a soft dog so we just run from the start line together. Squeak does a sit lead out.


I think that a soft dog can really benefit from a start-line stay as long as it's taught well. If it's taught as a "connection" game with an explosive release, it can really motivate a nervous dog. I spent 3 months building a stellar strart-line with my whippet. Now, she crouches like a border collie and maintains intense eye-contact and charges off the start line when released. I worked it independently, away from the rest of the equiptment. 

I know what you're saying, but I think that working through it has a lot of value in building distance and confidence. But, all dogs and teams are different and no one knows a dog as well as its owner.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think that a soft dog can really benefit from a start-line stay as long as it's taught well. If it's taught as a "connection" game with an explosive release, it can really motivate a nervous dog. I spent 3 months building a stellar strart-line with my whippet. Now, she crouches like a border collie and maintains intense eye-contact and charges off the start line when released. I worked it independently, away from the rest of the equiptment.
> 
> I know what you're saying, but I think that working through it has a lot of value in building distance and confidence. But, all dogs and teams are different and no one knows a dog as well as its owner.


 Have a friend who has three sheltie that she runs two of which are soft dogs. All three of her dogs have multiple MACh and CATCh titles. She never does lead out with her dogs. Have another friend who runs a soft dog who is close to her MACh and CATCh titles. I agree that you have to run the dog you have.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

When I first started with Remmy, I did a running start. When I started telling him to stay, I started to have a problem with him freezing and not wanting to go. I have retrained him now, using OK as my release and now he is really quick off the start line and I can take a big lead out if I want to. He is very sensitive and as he was my first Agility dog I made lots of mistakes but he has done really well despite my mistakes.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Heck, I don't think that Sylvia Trkman ever did a start stay with her World Champion! You don't need one, no doubt. But it's a nice tool to have in the tool box unless it really freaks out your dog. I see a ton of small dog handlers who love the "throw and go" and they get great results. Some big dogs too.

For my team, I have a really fast dog and I am a fat and busted up middle-aged woman. I need every step I can get!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> Heck, I don't think that Sylvia Trkman ever did a start stay with her World Champion! You don't need one, no doubt. But it's a nice tool to have in the tool box unless it really freaks out your dog. I see a ton of small dog handlers who love the "throw and go" and they get great results. Some big dogs too.
> 
> For my team, I have a really fast dog and I am a fat and busted up middle-aged woman. I need every step I can get!


I definitely need a lead out with Pepper. I'm quick, he is wayyyyy quicker. Someone needs to tell my dog to wait for me! A sit/down/stand stay is essential for us as a team. I actually like Pepper to have a stand stay sometimes. If we are working for 45 minutes or an hour I don't like stressing his joints by having sit and go, down and go, sit and go, etc every couple minutes.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

trainingjunkie said:


> Heck, I don't think that Sylvia Trkman ever did a start stay with her World Champion! You don't need one, no doubt. But it's a nice tool to have in the tool box unless it really freaks out your dog. I see a ton of small dog handlers who love the "throw and go" and they get great results. Some big dogs too.
> 
> For my team, I have a really fast dog and I am a fat and busted up middle-aged woman. I need every step I can get!


I hear ya! Hercules my soft dog is a 5lb maltese. By the way love your videos with your Pittie(?). Reminds me of my friends rescue boy smart and fast!!


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

Very interesting to read. I only have a vague idea what all of this means. I think I will need Lenny to sit and stay. He's pretty darn fast for a little dog. He loves to run with his big floppy ears flying behind him. Maybe the game we play with the bear will be good for this. When I release him to go get the bear he just explodes. Maybe I will try practicing some with me out in front instead of the bear. Our basic obedience trainer told us not to do that yet (I think, iirc) but I'm not sure why.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Spazmelda said:


> Very interesting to read. I only have a vague idea what all of this means. I think I will need Lenny to sit and stay. He's pretty darn fast for a little dog. He loves to run with his big floppy ears flying behind him. Maybe the game we play with the bear will be good for this. When I release him to go get the bear he just explodes. Maybe I will try practicing some with me out in front instead of the bear. Our basic obedience trainer told us not to do that yet (I think, iirc) but I'm not sure why.


The more times you call a dog off of a stay (in obedience) the less the dog is going to settle into a stay. In obedience, you are building to a long stay and the call outs are going to make that harder. All three of my dogs compete in obedience and agility (and rally) so I need to do what I can to make the expectaions clear to them. When I am leaving my dog and want them to stay in place until I return, I say "Stay." If I am going to call them but I am going to leave them first, I say "Wait." Over time, they learn the difference in the commands. If I say Stay, my dogs chill out and look around and relax. If I say Wait, my dogs keep their eyes on me.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

agility collie mom said:


> I hear ya! Hercules my soft dog is a 5lb maltese. By the way love your videos with your Pittie(?). Reminds me of my friends rescue boy smart and fast!!


A start line stay with a maltese is probably a bad investment of your time! I would love to see videos! Someday I want to train a little dog! Thanks for the kind words about my dog! He's a scream! I hope we turn the corner and start qualifying in excellent! I am tired of the near misses! At least it's always an adventure!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I need a start line with my guys. They're only 8 lbs but they're fast.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

I have a tiny fairly slow dog (She's randomly fast when she wants to be), but I still do start line stays. She starts out of the gate MUCH faster when she's been in a stay.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Here is my friend with two of her shelties:The first one is Hector

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJTlAu0FB28

This one is Troy one of her soft dogs. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbefOehUnn4

These videos are from three years ago do not have more recent ones.

Watch the difference in how she handles each of the dogs. 
They are both now multi MACh CATCh dogs.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Have you started classes yet?


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

agility collie mom said:


> Have you started classes yet?


Me? No, they start March 25.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Spazmelda said:


> Me? No, they start March 25.


Yep can't wait to hear about your classes. It's a very addictive sport.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm excited to start, thanks for asking! I have no how he's going to do. We went to obedience class tonight and he did well, which I wasn't expecting since we had two weeks off (one week I was sick, and the next was a snowstorm). Luckily, the week I was sick they worked on loose leash walking. I take Lenny for at least one 30 minute walk a day and since he was a terrible puller at first I'd been working on it like crazy. He came off as very well behaved, but of course there were no birds or tasty goose poop tempting him in the class. Lol.

Maybe I'll post updates here when we start the class, or maybe on the agility class thread. I'd feel weird posting there since everyone else is much more experienced, but I guess they'd probably be interested in hearing about beginning classes too?


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Spazmelda said:


> Maybe I'll post updates here when we start the class, or maybe on the agility class thread. I'd feel weird posting there since everyone else is much more experienced, but I guess they'd probably be interested in hearing about beginning classes too?


Post! I'm a newbie to agility (just finished our second 8 week class) and have been posting in that thread since I started. Everyone is so helpful and I'm learning so much just from reading everyone else's posts and discussion. Great place to get advice, clarification or just share! 

Also, I'm officially addicted!


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