# Dog Whisperer, Cesar Milan,I think he is great...



## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

I really love to watch the Dog Whisperer, I think Cesar Milan is great and I have had a lot of help with my dogs by watching his show. Cesar is going to be a special guest on The Ghost Whisperer on Friday March 30, 2007, I hope everyone who loves dogs will watch, and don't forget to watch his show, The Dog Whisperer!!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

The Ghost Whisperer meets the Dog Whisperer? I'm gonna have to turn the volume WAY up with all that whispering going on.

I find Cesar interesting enough but don't be surprised if this thread turns into 19 pages of back-and-forth.

Not everyone is a fan.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

Really? I have had a lot of success using his techniques, my dogs are doing very well and I have 4, 2 rat terriers and 2 chihuahua's and no issues with any of them in 2 years.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I like a few of his ideas, like the calm submissive state of mind, more excercise, controlling the resources etc.

But not so into his aggressive, very physical manner with attaining some of those goals.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

I don't feel its so much aggressive, but more assertive, as he states, calm and assertive. I have followed much of what he says and have had success, not only with my dogs, but with myself when I am entering someones home or meeting a strange dog, I follow the no touch, no talk, no eye contact rule.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

He's an intuitive dog person, however, some of his techniques are based on outdated and invalid theories. So yes it's true, not everyone is a fan.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

He is very intuitive, and has had a lot of success with his pack, everyone is allowed their opinion, all I know is that I have had a lot of success with my dogs and feel I have never had better dogs in my life, and I have tried trainers in the past or people who claimed they could train a dog but never had much success with them. The Ghost Whisperer will be fun to watch though, it's about a ghost dog and Cesar is called in to help, sounds like it will be fun to watch.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Yes, a good trainer, much like a good breeder, is hard to find...especially if the owner is ignorant to dog needs. I'm sure the Ghost Whisperer episode will be quite amusing. I hope I don't miss it.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

That SHOULD be fun. I just set up to record it.

Thanks for the heads-up.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

UGH, why can't they have Ian Dunbar, Turid Rugaas or Patricia McConnell instead!!!

BTW, if anybody watches "Mythbusters" they did an all dog special and McConnell was on it! 

Sorry, NOT a Milan fan! If your red any of the old threads, I've explained why and the science behind it.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

Thanks for your feedback, I'm not perfect and yes I have made mistakes with my dogs before, I'm sure everyone has they're preferred methods and successes, maybe a lot depends on the dogs upbringing and background and the trainer has to go from there. I think dogs are like people, not every method will work the same for all and I'm sure Cesar has had to reevaluate some methods and work around the problem.


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## compaq__ (Mar 14, 2007)

I think you have to remember it is still a TV program made for ENTERTAINMENT. A great deal of editing is done to each show. They could make any technique look almost perfect. I think Caesar is great but I don't think he is quite as good as portrayed.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

You will find that Cesar has alot of critics. Most of them, in my opinion, don't have 1/10000 of the experience and knowledge that he has. They have probably taught a couple of dogs to heel, so they think they know everything about training. Now the no-name critics, will knock Cesar, but will never tell you how they are capable of doing what Cesar does. I call it "sour grapes"....


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## compaq__ (Mar 14, 2007)

Captbob said:


> You will find that Cesar has alot of critics. Most of them, in my opinion, don't have 1/10000 of the experience and knowledge that he has. They have probably taught a couple of dogs to heel, so they think they know everything about training. Now the no-name critics, will knock Cesar, but will never tell you how they are capable of doing what Cesar does. I call it "sour grapes"....


I don't call it SOUR GRAPES. I call it all good TV editing.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

Cesar has not always had success and I have seen him admit, he had an episode with a min pin that the owners gave up on and put to sleep. I doubt anyone is 100%, we are human and I applaud Cesar for admitting his failure's.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I doubt the min pin incident had anything to do with Cesar. The min pin owner had very little dog savvy, and would have failed regardless of the training method. As I've said of Cesar's show before, it does an excellent job in highlighting how ignorant dog owners can be. It's no wonder euthanasia tables have long waiting lists.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

What network is this "Ghost Whisperer" on? I thought I'd tell my sister about it since she thinks the sun rises and sets in him. I can't get the National Geo channel but she does and watches him for hours when he's on.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

It's on CBS this Friday 7pm Central time.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

Friday, March 30 (8:00-9:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS
Television Network.

Here's more on it:

When Homer the Ghost Dog returns to Grandview, he walks back into
Melinda's (Jennifer Love Hewitt) life by spooking Delia's (Camryn
Manheim) normally calm golden retriever, Bob. Worried about Bob's
recent change in behavior, Delia visits a local Grandview book
signing with Dog Whisperer Cesar Millan. Melinda joins Delia at the
signing to see if Cesar can offer guidance on how to cross Homer into
the light.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

compaq__ said:


> I don't call it SOUR GRAPES. I call it all good TV editing.


You most likely have no idea of what you are talking about and no way to back it up.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

It doesn't take experience to know that alpha rolling has been considered out of date dog training for a while now, at least a decade.

While lately this purely positive stuff has been flying out here and there, I don't neccessarily think purely positive is for EVERY dog, but I'm pretty darn sure that his physical methods, like the alpha roll and in some circumstances the "bite" with his hand are seriously not called for with 90% of dogs out there. Even more so, dogs that already have issues.

For a dog that already has dominance issues, what do you think happens when Cesar leaves? In the dogs mind, this stranger just came into HIS home, DOMINATED him by FORCING him onto the floor and BIT him in the neck than left.

It's going to make it a heck of a lot harder for those owners to become a respectable leader to that dog IMO.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> You most likely have no idea of what you are talking about and no way to back it up.


I doubt compaq_'s opinion holds any less weight than yours. Care to back up yours?


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I doubt compaq_'s opinion holds any less weight than yours. Care to back up yours?


 I am not the one acting like Cesar doesn't know what he is doing and I am an expert.....


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Interesting, because I didn't see compaq_ doing that either.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Well Said Alpha!

Bob, I believe Ian Dunbar and Patrcia McConnell have alot more experience than Milan have EVER had with every type of dog. Ian Dunbar was the first trainer to have a puppy class as most trainers didn't you could train obedience until 6months, he's a veterinarian as well . I've posted NUMEROUS studies and research on why Milans methods are outdated and could be harmful, which I suppose you've never read. Instead of knocking people, maybe you should open your mind and do your own research. 

Karen, 
Read this, it explains, in a civil manner, why people are skeptical about Milan. 
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

There are better ways to train your dog.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

Hey, I don't like all these, "There are better ways to train your dog." There are MANY ways to train "your" dog. Each dog is different. Some need all positive reinforcement, some, (Believe it or not) need NO positive reinforcement. Some just need the correction. With my personal dog, she is a mix of both. She's at about the Cesar Millan type. And then there are OTHER dogs, that freak out if you do any of that type of stuff. I'm just saying, there are MANY ways out there to train dogs, and each different dog NEEDS a different way, that's why there ARE so many ways.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

There are a tonne of ways out there to train your dog, I myself don't agree that purely positive is for every dog out there.

I stated in my first post that Cesar has some ideas I do agree with, but not his physical, super hands on methods that often require physical force and a lot of struggling on the dogs part.

I dare Cesar to come to my house and "bite" Roxy with his hand or try to wrestle her to the floor! I'm sure THOSE scenes are edited out though...

I myself have used what could be called a pretty harsh aversive (e-collar) but I've never physically HURT my dog in an _attempt_ to train them.

Do you honestly think in the day, or few hours he's at their house that it changes the dog's personality and habits THAT much?

Impossible! It's more about educating the OWNERS on what to do, not even really what HE does specifically, of course excepting the NEGATIVE damage done to the dog.

To bring it back to dominant dogs (because I know first hand, Roxy is unashamedly human agressive) I know that's what most important in our household (well at least between me and Roxy) is trust. Yeah, I'm the leader, yada yada yada, that's been established awhile ago, now it's TRUST.

How is your dog supposed to trust you if you allow some strange man to come into your home and man handle them while you stand silently by?

Purely theoretical here, but what I'm pretty sure would happen, is Roxy would relapse into her old ways, being completely right out psycho about strangers and perhaps even become agressive towards me. (She hasn't but I could see it happening)

Jaylie- Just because there are SO many ways, doesn't neccessarily mean all of those ways are "up to date".

We used to think the earth was flat.

We used to think that left handed people had weaker hearts...

So on and so forth. Just like decades ago, "dog trainers" thought it was neccessary to toss their dog onto the ground, on their back and hold them there by their throats.

I agree that there is no one method for any dog out there and I use aversives myself in training, but even I can't see, or understand the use of alpha rolls in "training" other than spiteful, stubborn or just plain uneducated.


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## Beckie (Mar 28, 2007)

Hi Im Beckie and I m new member here.
I like ceasar to and I like to see his program on tv on
monday here in sweden.  
he is great with all dogs he help.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

RonE said:


> don't be surprised if this thread turns into 19 pages of back-and-forth.


Pretty good start, I'd say.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

Just 16 pages to go! Interesting comments.


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## Sketchisfuzzy (Mar 29, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Well Said Alpha!
> 
> Karen,
> Read this, it explains, in a civil manner, why people are skeptical about Milan.
> ...


THanks for the link...Good article...I have always been on the fence about Millan...While some of his methods seem pretty good, I have always thought him to be a bit too aggressive. It may indeed "work" but "working" should not necessarily be the guiding factor. One could beat a dog into obeying that doesn't make it right. It's the fruit of the relationship you have with your dog. Do you have a dog who obeys because he fears you'll alpha drop him and "bite" his neck? Or does he obey because you've built a relationship on trust and patience? Perhaps some dogs require more man-handling than others - just not sure this should be the mainstream idea of good training. 

But...Good to have different training tools for the "toolbelt". I just wouldn't go exclusively Millan for training my dog. 

JMHO! 

Helen


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Sketchisfuzzy said:


> But...Good to have different training tools for the "toolbelt". I just wouldn't go exclusively Millan for training my dog.


I couldn't agree more. To those who are seeking as much information as possible, to have a well known show on dog behavior, can open the gateway to knowledge and alternative training techniques. In that sense Cesar's show does motivate learning.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> There are a tonne of ways out there to train your dog, I myself don't agree that purely positive is for every dog out there.
> 
> I stated in my first post that Cesar has some ideas I do agree with, but not his physical, super hands on methods that often require physical force and a lot of struggling on the dogs part.
> 
> ...


Are you and I watching the same show ( The Dog Whisperer) cause I sure don't see what you are talking about, happening? By the way, where did you get the false notion that an E-Collar is a "harsh aversive"? That is simply not true.


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

Why is everyone so focused on the alpha rolls and hand "bites"? What about what he teaches about getting to know and really understand the dog and to get inside the dogs mind, and to understand that the behavior problems are almost always caused by the owner? What about just postulating that the dog is going to do what you want? Power of positive thinking!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

That most problems dog have are due to the owner is one of the things i agree with Milan about. I may not like his techniques, but he's right about that. However he also tends to over use the 'dominance things. I've seen him FORCE a great dane across a floor area that it was scared of. Forcing a dog to do something it's scared of is a good way to turn fear into the dog biting to protect itself. 

http://www.animalbehavior.net/PUBLIC/CesarMillan_Luescher.htm

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

These are some ther very interesting articles you may want to read. Again, written not by amatuers like me, but by behaviorists.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

> I myself have used what *could be called *a pretty harsh aversive (e-collar) but I've never physically HURT my dog in an attempt to train them.


Captbob- Read my post again, I stated the truth, many believe the e-collar is a HARSH aversive, especially when compared to the purely positive/shaping behaviour methods out there today.

I was merely stating that even when training myself, I use aversives, some could be classified as pretty harsh, but even I haven't alpha rolled or "bit" my dogs on the neck.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

KarenS46 said:


> Why is everyone so focused on the alpha rolls and hand "bites"? What about what he teaches about getting to know and really understand the dog and to get inside the dogs mind, and to understand that the behavior problems are almost always caused by the owner? What about just postulating that the dog is going to do what you want? Power of positive thinking!


Because many of the people that like to knock Cesar don't really watch the show, so they act like every show is composed of alpha rolls and handbites......



Alpha said:


> Captbob- Read my post again, I stated the truth, many believe the e-collar is a HARSH aversive, especially when compared to the purely positive/shaping behaviour methods out there today.
> 
> I was merely stating that even when training myself, I use aversives, some could be classified as pretty harsh, but even I haven't alpha rolled or "bit" my dogs on the neck.


I see no difference at all between the type of "hand bite" that Cesar does, and using a choke collar or prong collar and a leash.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Well because *you* can't see the difference doesn't mean that there isn't.

The hand bite he does is NOT comparable to using a prong collar or choke (*in which I use neither anyways in training*).

The prong collar does not represent a bite, rather just pain to avoid the dog from putting up resistance against the collar. The neck is where we humans choose to lead dogs around, so it makes sense that the neck is where the resistance from dog pulling comes from. On top of that, where we as humans decide to apply pain in the hopes of stopping the dog from pulling on the leash.

Totally different, than in a quick, startling movement, pinching the dogs neck. The "hand bite" Cesar does, I imagine is NOT painful, like prong collars are. It's what it represents that makes it so mentally damaging.

And on reactive dogs, like my Roxy, doing this hand bite, will most likely get you bit. I'll rephrase that, it WILL get you bit.

I think, as humans, we can administer some corrections that in dog language mean something. Perhaps some dogs won't react to that hand bite, I'm not saying that all will, but I don't think it's right to lead the general dog owning public to believe that that's the way they should train their dog.

A lot of the things Cesar does are probably attempted on their own dogs after the show. Without the supervision of a trainer or any real knowledge aside from watching an hour long program designed for entertainment on tv a lot of these "methods" can cause a lot of damage.

Number one IMO, being lost trust between you and your dog.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Alpha said:


> aside from watching an hour long program designed for entertainment


It's actually a half-hour show - about as long as it takes Lassie to get home and explain to the folks (in some detail) that Timmie has, once again, fallen down the well and they'd better come quick and fish him out.

I watch the show for the same reasons that I watched Lassie religiously when I was attempting to grow up. It's entertaining and it has dogs.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Well because *you* can't see the difference doesn't mean that there isn't.
> 
> The hand bite he does is NOT comparable to using a prong collar or choke (*in which I use neither anyways in training*).
> 
> ...


I just had along discussion about this very topic two days ago with two trainers that train police dogs. They disagree with you 100%. Each if them has been doing this work for over a decade.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I see no difference at all between the type of "hand bite" that Cesar does, and using a choke collar or prong collar and a leash.


If I'm not mistaken, the choke collar and prong collar came before "dominance" theories existed. And I'm sure you're aware "dominance" techniques (like using your hand to simulate a bite) derived from studying wolf packs, and only a small percentage of wolf life at that. Techniques like, and the alpha roll, are misplaced simply because our dogs are not wolves, and do not mimic wolf behavior. They are superficially similar, but not even the same species. So what do those people do if they don't believe in dominance theories do? They aim for cooperative training using motivations other than fear, and guide the dog with leadership and communication more applicable to dog behavior.

So although Cesar may not choose to alpha roll a dog every episode, he often does do leash corrections, and neck jabs. Again, it looks perfect to be "made for tv," but these types of techniques are a last resort at best, and are largely unnecessary. If you don't believe the rocket scientist, ask Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, or Virginia Woolf, just to name a few non-rocket scientists. However, you'll never get from A to B unless you actually study the relevance of dominance theories, and actual dog group behavior, including the evolution of our beloved companions.

BTW, I watch the show any chance I can...but only for the entertainment, and because there aren't enough dog shows on TV.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If I'm not mistaken, the choke collar and prong collar came before "dominance" theories existed. And I'm sure you're aware "dominance" techniques (like using your hand to simulate a bite) derived from studying wolf packs, and only a small percentage of wolf life at that. Techniques like, and the alpha roll, are misplaced simply because our dogs are not wolves, and do not mimic wolf behavior. They are superficially similar, but not even the same species. So what do those people do if they don't believe in dominance theories do? They aim for cooperative training using motivations other than fear, and guide the dog with leadership and communication more applicable to dog behavior.
> 
> So although Cesar may not choose to alpha roll a dog every episode, he often does do leash corrections, and neck jabs. Again, it looks perfect to be "made for tv," but these types of techniques are a last resort at best, and are largely unnecessary. If you don't believe the rocket scientist, ask Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Patricia McConnell, or Virginia Woolf, just to name a few non-rocket scientists. However, you'll never get from A to B unless you actually study the relevance of dominance theories, and actual dog group behavior, including the evolution of our beloved companions.
> 
> BTW, I watch the show any chance I can...but only for the entertainment, and because there aren't enough dog shows on TV.


If that is all true, how come trainers using the methods recommended by these "modern experts" can't seem to help the dogs that Cesar wiinds up with. In just about every episode, the dogs that Cesar helps have been to multiple trainers who gave up, or told them they should euthanize the dog. Cesar fixes the problem. I will say it again, if there are *so many great trainers* out there, why doesn't *one of them* get their own show and demonstrate how they can do it "* better than Cesar"*? If you are going to wait for this to happen, I wouldn't hold your breath. It is really easy to criticize someone else, when you don't have to demonstrate how you can do a better job of it.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

If you read the article I posted from the San Fran paper you'll seee that Ian Dunbar has had shows. They just weren't flashy enough for the American public. Cesar makes dog training look glamorous, it isn't. It's tedious and repetative. I'll bet if the people who went to several trainers before Cesar were honest, they didn't follow through on what the trainer instructed. You can't go to a trainer once a week and not followup at home. I wonder how many of those dogs have fallen back into the bad habits because the owners have not followed through with Cesars advice either.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Because your average jo blo trainer doesn't have the study or the degree in animal behavior like those that I named. I doubt the nameless people you refer to even knew what kind of credentials a behaviorist should have. Again, like Cesar's show, this points to the ignorance of the owner. One TV series does not make a trainer good. If that's your criteria for a good trainer, I find that laughable. Instead of defending the "wizardry" of Cesar, why not attend a seminar by the trainers that I mentioned, and see their approaches yourself. I'm sure you'll be equally mystified by their wizardry too. I don't need a TV show to demonstrate how I need to train a dog. I need fundamentals in sound theory, and methods that are applicable to me and just about every companion dog. I don't need some self proclaimed "whisperer" telling me and showing me how an alpha wolf dominants other members of the pack. I can pick up a dog training book from the 60's to do that. 

He's right on some things like setting boundaries, being calm and assertive, but those are all the qualities of being a leader, not of a alpha dog displaying dominance. Who knew NILIF was an applicable fundamental for dogs? *waves hand* 

BTW, I don't discredit the dogs he does help, I think that's great. Many of the same pitbulls you run away from at the dog park, he helps rehabilitate with his dog group. However, to those who understand the role of the alpha dog in a dog group, watching someone who still believes in dominance theories, is frustrating. Because the same people who claim to have failed with other trainers are also calling trainers complaining that they've tried what Cesar does, but it doesn't work, and in some cases these people are bitten. Thus the disclaimer. Owners are ignorant, with or without Cesar's show. 

Another btw, I've never seen or heard the behaviorists that I mentioned openly criticize Cesar. In fact, I've only heard them say the similar things to what many of us have been saying, but only when asked...that he's intuitive, but dominance theories are out of place. 

Again, if you want to see other techniques demonstrated, be proactive and attend a seminar. Heck, attend one by Cesar, and one by Jean, and compare. To me this is much more proactive than Tivo-ing a neck jabbing "whisperer."


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## KarenS46 (Mar 28, 2007)

Cesar's methods work for me, I have never had to resort to the alpha roll, but many of his other methods have worked for me. I have a sensitive breed that seeks to please and I have well behaved dogs and that says it all for me.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Captbob, I would LOVE to hear what parts they disagree with.

Keeping in mind that MOST canine units use positive reinforcement/shaping methods now, even for the more agressive, bite work, and MOST DEFINITELY are using shaping/positive methods for scent work. (Most k9 cops are toy driven for scent work now)

People that use those types of tools with, excuse my language, feed you crap by hand to defend their use of those tools. Period. I've seen it done here. (I know people that use prongs for bite work, (which is about the only sport/activity where I personally think it should ever be used) while I understand why they do, even when I eventually do get involved with bite work, personally, I'll be using an agitation collar, no matter how big my dog is)

Besides, most people here are average pet owners, so I have no idea why you'd be planning on using any of those tools, because I can guarentee the average pet owned dog does NOT require those tools.

I agree cshellenbuger and curbside.

I have to reiterate, and as my name implies, especially in our household, leadership on my part, is *very* important. I did not achieve my place in this household, by alpha rolling my dog or biting her in the neck, or as some people have done, quite literally holding her down and actually biting her ear etc.

I controlled her resources, we worked together, working with your dogs is a GREAT way to build bonds and trust. NOTHING physical, and Roxy is the definition of a dominant dog. Not, she's dominant right now, but if given the chance, she'd take over in a heartbeat.

She's a prime example of why the new methods work, and why the old ones do not.

And as for the length of the show, I see it all the time, and it's always an hour long program, perhaps where I am it's so unfortunately popular that they've increased the length of the show.

I believe it's the National Geographic channel? I'll have to double check, usually I try not to watch too much of it, and pass by it on the guide list cursing a bit.

I think what's most important with "dog stuff" is instead of just regurgitating what you've heard, or what "so and so" told you last week about said topic, LEARN ABOUT it yourself.

Don't take anyone's word, no matter their degree/experience as the gospel.

While they can give you good information, it's up to you, to research it yourself and in general apply it to what you've hopefully already learned.

My trainer is awesome. People at our school have countless titles. Do I do everything she says? No!

I used a method from a lady her on the internet for the retrieve on my guys and it worked fabulously!

Now, I love my trainer, but she was not happy with me. Of course not! I pay her, and I didn't use her method! Although she did admit it worked quite well, she still will not tell other people at school how I did it, same with the drop.

You'll find in the dog world, people are quite stubborn. Not willing to give up their methods for the new ones. Even if the new ones work better.

But it's something you'll have to find out on your own...

ETA- I HAD to add, if I were to speak with these police officers who train k9's, I would HAVE to ask, why they use a prong... I mean, what... are you not strong enough to restrain the dog with an agiation collar??!!? ROFL

Most likely they'll reply they use it to administer corrections, but I'd have to say it... LMAO


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Captbob, I would LOVE to hear what parts they disagree with.
> 
> Keeping in mind that MOST canine units use positive reinforcement/shaping methods now, even for the more agressive, bite work, and MOST DEFINITELY are using shaping/positive methods for scent work. (Most k9 cops are toy driven for scent work now)
> 
> ...


I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....


White space = pause for thought.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Captbob said:


> I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....


I second what Curbside said. I love the way Alpha posts...you can see where each thought ends and the next begins.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> White space = pause for thought.


DaVinci didn't even do that..


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

And here we are, once again. Is Cesar Millan the best thing to happen to dogs since their domestication, or is he the incarnation of evil itself?

My opinion, he's somewhere in between. It's not like the guy is discovering a whole new way to deal and communicate with dogs, he's just bringing it to prime time tv. It's not like he brutalizes and beats dogs, it just so happens that he doesn't see leash corrections as harmful to a dog, which in the hands of a pro, aren't.

Far be it for me to agree 100% with anything, specially someone with all this media hype around him. Lets face it, people who HATE him, HATE anyone that doesn't live and breath operant conditioning. Carla is pretty vocal and open about her opinion, parts of it I agree with, like, there are better, more efficient ways to deal with problems. Other parts I don't agree, the guy is NOT evil, incompetent, stupid or cruel(I know that's not literally what you've said but by the tone and wording of your posts it's safe to assume that's how you feel).

Others simply ADORE him, some of those fans I have to wonder if they like him because they are into dogs, or if they got into dogs cuz they saw the TV show. I also have to wonder if many of his hard core fans have and use any other source of information, or in their mind does learning about dog behaviour starts and stops with "The Dog Whisperer"?.

And then, somewhere in between loving him and hating him, there's people like me. I think his show is great entertainment, I've heard the "why not Dunbar or McConnell?" question more than once, and it's simple, because, educative as it may be, it would not be entertaining for the general public.
At the same time, I also think that if someone has a problem that they can't seem to deal with, well, trying something you saw on tv may not be the best of ideas, consult a pro, that's what they do. 

There are parts of his thinking and methodology that I do think are WAY over emphasized and over rated, like "The walk". I agree that dogs need excercise and to go out of the house for mental stimulation, but come on, I honestly doubt that the world stops spinning if you don't "walk your dog properly". 

I've noticed that he is very very very misinterpreted by both fans and haters alike, and that seems to stem from people deciding on whether they agree or not before they even start thinking or listening.

Some of Millan's philosophy is common sense put on paper and made into a few catchy phrases. Excercise, Discipline and Affection, pretty straightforward, and I would be hard pressed to find any dog pro that doesn't agree with that in some form. Rules, boundaries and Limitations, same thing.

Then there's the part where it's a little more open to interpretation, the part where in my opinion Millan sounds like someone talking about alternative medicine or something along those lines. "Project the energy" "live in the moment", that sounds more like motivational speaking than dog training/behaviour to me.

The one thing I CANNOT stand, and I've repeated this a number of times. Is all the ignorant people that have this "as seen on tv" mentality. They TiVo "The dog whisperer" and in their minds that makes them fit to give advice and pass judgement on what a person is doing wrong. They talk about stuff they have learned and observed, which from where I sit means "I saw it on tv". I've had numerous arguments with this kind of nutjob, no matter who wrong you prove CM to be they ALWAYS come with an alternative explanation on how he was right, I mean, the guy is human after all isn't he?. Something isn't true or false based on who said it, any statement must stand by it's own merit and logic.

THOSE are the people that are a disservice not only to CM, but to dogs in general.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

eley said:


> And here we are, once again. Is Cesar Millan the best thing to happen to dogs since their domestication, or is he the incarnation of evil itself?
> 
> My opinion, he's somewhere in between. It's not like the guy is discovering a whole new way to deal and communicate with dogs, he's just bringing it to prime time tv. It's not like he brutalizes and beats dogs, it just so happens that he doesn't see leash corrections as harmful to a dog, which in the hands of a pro, aren't.
> 
> ...



I agree 100%!  I am completely in between too. I like CM, the show is very entertaining, but IT'S A SHOW. Yes, I do think some of his methods are useful and work...but most of those "methods" are more like common sense to anyone who understands dogs. 

I think people need to realize that this is a show and it's made for tv. The people who claim they HATE or LOVE him just need to relax and remember that it's a show. He's an good guy and he loves dogs, but it's television.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

eley, crazybrit *bows down*

My first post states that there are a few ideas Cesar has that I do agree with. Even I use leash corrections!

I agree wholeheartedly, that it's the people that JUST watch the show and think they know all, is where the problem arises. When people think that the ONLY way to "fix" a reactive dog is to alpha roll it.

Once again *bows down* to the above posts.

And as for the way I post, both Curbside and crazybrit answered for me. There's nothing I can't stand more than people who post their whole reply in one huge paragraph. To be honest, I usually just skim it or don't read at all  Something I shouldnt' do because there could be useful information there, I just find it a lot easier to digest something when it's split up, like crazybrit said, into a thought process.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Alpha said:


> eley, crazybrit *bows down*
> 
> My first post states that there are a few ideas Cesar has that I do agree with. Even I use leash corrections!
> 
> ...


*blushes* Aww thanks! 

It's true though! I like to watch Iron Chef and 30 Minutes Meals...but if started spouting out information on how one should cook there'd be a heck of a lot of people burning their kitchens down! I enjoy watching Emergency Vets...but god forbid I started to perform surgeries on my pets just because i have watched plenty of them on Animal Planet!! Ahh!

Just because you watch a lot of something on a television show does not make you an expert!




Alpha said:


> And as for the way I post, both Curbside and crazybrit answered for me. There's nothing I can't stand more than people who post their whole reply in one huge paragraph. To be honest, I usually just skim it or don't read at all  Something I shouldnt' do because there could be useful information there, I just find it a lot easier to digest something when it's split up, like crazybrit said, into a thought process.



I am sometimes guilty of typing a lot into one paragraph...but I think seperate thoughts or issues should be split up. I also skip really lengthy posts that have no breaks whatsoever...they are SO hard to follow. 

Especially when the poster uses no capital letters or periods! Arg!


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

Alpha said:


> I agree wholeheartedly, that it's the people that JUST watch the show and think they know all, is where the problem arises. When people think that the ONLY way to "fix" a reactive dog is to alpha roll it.


Funny you should mention, my dog is leash reactive, easily mistaken with aggression by someone who doesn't know better. I was told by some id... not very smart person, in another forum that I wasn't showing good pack leadership. 

I mentioned that I didn't feel comfortable with my 100lb wife walking our 120+lb reactive fila brasileiro, because I feared that if he had a reactive episode, my wife, the dog, or both could be seriously injured. This geniuse's answer? "IF you had the right walking technique that wouldn't be a problem".

Can you see where my frustration and aggrevation stems from?


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

eley said:


> Funny you should mention, my dog is leash reactive, easily mistaken with aggression by someone who doesn't know better. I was told by some id... not very smart person, in another forum that I wasn't showing good pack leadership.
> 
> I mentioned that I didn't feel comfortable with my 100lb wife walking our 120+lb reactive fila brasileiro, because I feared that if he had a reactive episode, my wife, the dog, or both could be seriously injured. This geniuse's answer? "IF you had the right walking technique that wouldn't be a problem".
> 
> Can you see where my frustration and aggrevation stems from?



I sure can! 

I saw a guy in Petsmart the other day that was doing CMs 'biting' thing. Now I am not 100% sure the guy got this idea from the Dog Whisperer, but I'd be willing to bet he did. This guy was basically just hitting his dogs chest over and over. And all because he stopped to sniff at some puppies.

I think that is why there is a disclaimer on the show. It's because some stupid people decide they watch the show enough and they are now professionals, and can use his techniques.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> I think I asked this question on another thread. Are you hitting your enter key after every sentence? On my browser, each sentence is showing up as a separate paragraph....


I like the way she posts too, besides, WHAT does her technique of posting have to do with the discussion?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I think it's avoidance 

Instead of answering my questions or relating anything back to what I've stated, just bang the way I post. LOL


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

KarenS46 said:


> Cesar's methods work for me, I have never had to resort to the alpha roll, but many of his other methods have worked for me. I have a sensitive breed that seeks to please and I have well behaved dogs and that says it all for me.


KarenS46, not to change the subject, 'cause I KNOW we all have a lot of new opinions to express about the Dog Whisperer, but what kind of dog do you have there?

That's a very handsome dog.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I think it's avoidance
> 
> Instead of answering my questions or relating anything back to what I've stated, just bang the way I post. LOL


Okay this was probably discussed somewhere else...but for some reason I want to assume that you are a male, but are you? Some say he; some say she...lol. I just hate using the wrong pronoun!


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## compaq__ (Mar 14, 2007)

Wow! This thread sure has taken off! Well, about Caesar. I didn't mean I don't think his methods work at all. I just don't think they work quite as well as TV portrays. Just an opinion.

To me, I think holding down your dog until he submits is a little rough. I've seen him do it and it seems to work but I'm not so sure that is a good or safe idea. I think given them plently of excercise and making sure you only reward good behavior is the best thing you can do. Works with my Labradoodle anyway.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I don't think Cesar is evil, just outdated. He's using methods I was taught 25 years ago. I've trained using adversives and punishment, I've found that positive reenforcement along with negative punishment (lack of attention or withdrawing the reward). I use an easy walk harness on even the largest dogs and have full contol. Now, granted I'm not a small woman at 5'8 165 lbs but my 15 year old daughters also use the easy walk and at 110 lbs and 115 respectively they also can control the big guys. 

Just an example, I pulled a 1 yr old 120 lb mastiff from the Humane society today. He'd not been taught much about manners and jumped on everyone. I brought him to my house waiting on his transport and practiced the Revup Cooldown with him for around 20 minutes. By the time I got done, he wasn't jumping on me or my youngest daughter, who's 10, any more. If the foster family and new owners follow up and continue practicing, He'll be reliable and calm. It takes follow through and repetition to get a dog into good habits. That's something many of Cesars clients hadn't done until he educated them.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> eley, crazybrit *bows down*
> 
> My first post states that there are a few ideas Cesar has that I do agree with. Even I use leash corrections!
> 
> ...


I think posting in one paragraph makes it impossible to read, and I won't read anything like that either.






I do think that breaking each sentence into a separate paragraph is the opposite extreme, and makes your hair hurt when you try to read it. It's like reading a Power Point Slide, minus the bullet points...





If the textbooks that were used by my students were created in that manner, they would weigh about 50 pounds each. 



A new Paradigm might be one post for each sentence...... LOL


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

^^^^^

Obviously doesn't want to discuss the subject matter.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I was just going to say the same thing! LOL

Now THAT is extreme Captbob, but what should you expect from a Cesar supporter? Someone who takes things to the EXXXTREME! LOL


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I was just going to say the same thing! LOL
> 
> Now THAT is extreme Captbob, but what should you expect from a Cesar supporter? Someone who takes things to the EXXXTREME! LOL


I am doing exactly what you are doing, just stepping it up *a notch*, so you can see how it feels to read it...... 

Going back to the popular "Cesar only knows Alpha Roll" mantra, I think that just demonstrates to people that you have watched very few of his shows, if any. so it makes debating the pros and cons of his show rather silly.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

While I'm SO sorry that you don't like reading my posts.

As far as I know this is a public forum and I can post how I please 

You choose to post about things that I don't enjoy reading and it's your right to do so. It's too bad that you continue to choose to post about my "posting methods" instead of posting about the topic at hand, which in general is DOGS. Perhaps it's just something that you realize now your not to knowledgable about, so your hoping to pick on me about my posting ways.

Continue on  It doesn't bother me any.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Going back to the popular "Cesar only knows Alpha Roll" mantra, I think that just demonstrates to people that you have watched very few of his shows, if any. so it makes debating the pros and cons of his show rather silly.


I don't think anyone here has said he only knows alpha rolls, just that his USE of alpha rolls and the neck bite technique is outdated as are many of his techniques.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> While I'm SO sorry that you don't like reading my posts.
> 
> As far as I know this is a public forum and I can post how I please
> 
> ...


I made* one comment and one illustration* about your posting methods. If I remember correctly, you were slamming someone for a spelling on another thread which I thought was uncalled for, especially since there were more than a few spelling errors in that post that you made. http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/3956-pit-bulls-hopefully-doesnt-18.html#post49536

Since you felt that it was necessary to start correcting mistakes in someone elses posting methods, and since I had never experienced anyone on a forum making each sentence a separate paragraph, I thought it would be interesting to find out why* you* were doing that....... As you stated, it is a public form and you can post any way you want, and I guess if someone wants to mispell "pit" , they should be able to do that too... 



cshellenberger said:


> I don't think anyone here has said he only knows alpha rolls, just that his USE of alpha rolls and the neck bite technique is outdated as are many of his techniques.


But if you read the negative comments about Cesar, almost every one starts out with "Alpha Rolls", like he is doing it 10 times in each show. Sorry, that is not what I see when I watch his shows.


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## siberian husky lover12 (Nov 17, 2006)

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, dont wach that much, hardly know him, i think he's cute though. Like that guy, uh, Mario Lopez who hosts petstar.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I corrected someone for mispelling my breeds slang name which is pitbull, yep I sure did 

Just like I've proven YOU wrong about a lot of the "so called" facts you've posted about MY breed.

The spelling mistake is just another add on, another pet peeve of mine as the misconception that pitbulls have a PSI of 2000...

And for everyone's information, I've been posting this way since I've been here which was long before you... it's funny that you comment on it NOW seeing as I've recently disagreed with you about a few topics...

ETA- Once again you've gone all out in your efforts about my posting methods (You *actually* posted a link to one of my threads regarding how I corrected someone on the correct spelling of pitbull, seriously get a life) instead of talking about DOGS which is what this board is about.

I think this makes it quite clear that you are uneducated about the general topic of this forum which is dogs and the only reason your here is to complain about how I post


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Because many of the people that like to knock Cesar don't really watch the show, so they act like every show is composed of alpha rolls and handbites......
> 
> 
> 
> I see no difference at all between the type of "hand bite" that Cesar does, and using a choke collar or prong collar and a leash.


I haven't read all the bickering on this thread (or my head), but not everyone trains with choke/prong collars either.

I'm on the fence about the guy as well, because his show is entertaining, and he has some of the right ideas, but I still disagree with forcing a dog to the ground.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I think the only thing that really annoys me about the whole Cesar thing is a lot of his followers who are like "GUNG HO CESAR ONLY AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG." Because every dog is different, and every dog responds differently to different methods of training (I trained Eevee with completely different methods than I did with Shippo). I am open to a lot of training ideas/methods, as long as they don't involve inflicting immense pain or fear on the dog.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

Cheetah said:


> This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I think the only thing that really annoys me about the whole Cesar thing is a lot of his followers who are like "GUNG HO CESAR ONLY AND EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG." Because every dog is different, and every dog responds differently to different methods of training (I trained Eevee with completely different methods than I did with Shippo). I am open to a lot of training ideas/methods, as long as they don't involve inflicting immense pain or fear on the dog.



I'm right there with you, I like the guy, I just don't agree with him 100%, nor I believe that every word that comes out of his mouth is true simply beacuse it came out of his mouth. Yet there's a subset of his fans that it's either you're in 100% or you're agaisnt the guy. Part of the price of being famous and on tv I guess.

It's also funny how this particular group of people, no matter how many logical coherent facts are presented to them as to the effect that Millan is either wrong or outdated in a particular case. Those arguments and evidence are usually met with satements along the lines of "you don't get it" "that's not true" and the like.

It's like arguing about the validity of gravity sometimes really....


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## LoveMyYuffie (Mar 27, 2007)

I didn't read this whole thread, I didn't feel like spending the hour it would have taken me. But here are my thoughts:

I just watched his show for the first time last night, and I watched about 3 or 4 problem dogs.

I don't think he is that great. I mean, the whole time, he was doing exactly what I would try. 

For example, last night the dog that was afraid of the air compressor? I don't think it is that ingenius to take her in there and turn it on for intervals of time. 

And the leash walking dog? That had to be one of the easiest problem dogs I have seen. Woohoo. So he didn't give into her like the lady did, and she figured out that she couldn't pull crap. So she listened.

BUUUTTT... I don't really have room to talk, because I have only seen maybe two episodes. So, I freely admit that I haven't seen enough of the show to fully judge on it, but from the amount that I have seen, this is what I have gathered.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

eley said:


> I'm right there with you, I like the guy, I just don't agree with him 100%, nor I believe that every word that comes out of his mouth is true simply beacuse it came out of his mouth. Yet there's a subset of his fans that it's either you're in 100% or you're agaisnt the guy. Part of the price of being famous and on tv I guess.
> 
> It's also funny how this particular group of people, no matter how many logical coherent facts are presented to them as to the effect that Millan is either wrong or outdated in a particular case. Those arguments and evidence are usually met with satements along the lines of "you don't get it" "that's not true" and the like.
> 
> It's like arguing about the validity of gravity sometimes really....


I agree with you! It's like there's these crazy fans that won't listen to anyone say anything negative about CM...but then there's this other group of people who are SO against CM that it makes you wonder why?

Why can't everyone just be in the middle here? I like CM, I really think he does great things for dogs...but The Dog Whisperer is a television show and not everything should be taken so darn seriously! 

It really is like the gravity issue, Eley!


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

If Cesar is nothing else, you have to give him an A+ for audacity. I know I wouldn't go into someone backyard with a people/animal aggressive Pit Bull mix with my camera crew with the dog jumping, barking and circling me!! He acted cool as a cucumber and told his crew to not move. Unfortunately, the sound man made a move and got nailed. 

This particular episode which I just saw last night, showed me what training could have done but the people just weren't smart in that area and didn't know what to do with him. Most of us wouldn't know either, IMO. I sure wouldn't have gone into that yard knowing what he was told about the dog. Before the show was over, Cesar had him walking down the street whereby before, he couldn't be walked without the guys girlfriend going six or eight feet in front of them with a can of pepper spray in case some stray dog might come from nowhere and then a fight would ensue. Cesar had him to the point that her owners could now walk down the street and pass by the same dogs as before behind the fence and now, this particular problem dog was no longer lunging and barking at them and they weren't him as well. YUou have to give the man credit for creating a much better environment for those folks and their dog than before.

Another episode I saw was a dog aggressive Rottweiler who had a particular hatred toward white GSD's...all dogs for that matter but, particularly white Shepards. Cesar takes him to his pack and lets him walk freely among his pack and eventually introduces a white...you guessed it, GSD to him. As Cesar is walking both of them one on each side talking into the camera, the Rottie nails the GSD in a split second, before you even see it. He gets the Rottie on his side to calm him and low and behold, he doesn't get his arm chewed off! That surprised me as there's no way I would have done that. Them two boys would have had at it before I tried to break that up!!

All in all, the jury's still out for me about him. I didn't go for some of his methods and wouldn't try it on any dog I may own but I have to admit, he changed my mind about Pit Bulls that evening. I always thought Pit Bulls had something inheritantly wrong with them and were just mean by nature. I got "born again" after seeing just the opposite in his pack as he had several of them that were just as calm and collective about the presence of that Rottie and one even rolled over on his back submissively. He must be doing something right and I see those "terrible" PB's in another light as a result of what I witnessed.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Elijah said:


> If Cesar is nothing else, you have to give him an A+ for audacity. I know I wouldn't go into someone backyard with a people/animal aggressive Pit Bull mix with my camera crew with the dog jumping, barking and circling me!! He acted cool as a cucumber and told his crew to not move. Unfortunately, the sound man made a move and got nailed.
> 
> This particular episode which I just saw last night, showed me what training could have done but the people just weren't smart in that area and didn't know what to do with him. Most of us wouldn't know either, IMO. I sure wouldn't have gone into that yard knowing what he was told about the dog. Before the show was over, Cesar had him walking down the street whereby before, he couldn't be walked without the guys girlfriend going six or eight feet in front of them with a can of pepper spray in case some stray dog might come from nowhere and then a fight would ensue. Cesar had him to the point that her owners could now walk down the street and pass by the same dogs as before behind the fence and now, this particular problem dog was no longer lunging and barking at them and they weren't him as well. YUou have to give the man credit for creating a much better environment for those folks and their dog than before.
> 
> ...


What's strikes me funny, is if some of the Cesar bashers had to do in real life, what Cesar does in almost all of these shows, I think they would *** in their pants...... 
It's pretty easy to put someone else down and act really tough, when you are hiding behind a monitor and keyboard.......


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Elijah said:


> If Cesar is nothing else, you have to give him an A+ for audacity. I know I wouldn't go into someone backyard with a people/animal aggressive Pit Bull mix with my camera crew with the dog jumping, barking and circling me!! He acted cool as a cucumber and told his crew to not move. Unfortunately, the sound man made a move and got nailed.


I totally missed that one! When did it come on? >O_O<


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> What's strikes me funny, is if some of the Cesar bashers had to do in real life, what Cesar does in almost all of these shows, I think they would *** in their pants......
> It's pretty easy to put someone else down and act really tough, when you are hiding behind a monitor and keyboard.......


Question. Is being critical of techniques an example of Cesar bashing? Or is it an advocacy for alternatives? Because to you point, if people had to do what Cesar does, and it would make them "*** in their pants", does it make any sense to use those techniques? Doesn't the technique have to apply to both the dog and the handler? Or did you missed the point that this show is only meant for entertainment? 

I particulary enjoyed the last show I saw where they rescued dogs from Mexico. Not that I think we need to do that, but to see an example of a shelter in Mexico I think was important.

BTW, I would love to invite Cesar to my home and speak to him mano y mano, however, I think he's probably too busy in makeup at the moment.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

\




Curbside Prophet said:


> Question. Is being critical of techniques an example of Cesar bashing? Or is it an advocacy for alternatives? Because to you point, if people had to do what Cesar does, and it would make them "*** in their pants", does it make any sense to use those techniques? Doesn't the technique have to apply to both the dog and the handler? Or did you missed the point that this show is only meant for entertainment?
> 
> I particulary enjoyed the last show I saw where they rescued dogs from Mexico. Not that I think we need to do that, but to see an example of a shelter in Mexico I think was important.
> 
> BTW, I would love to invite Cesar to my home and speak to him mano y mano, however, I think he's probably too busy in makeup at the moment.


I met two very experienced dog trainers last week that had dinner with Cesar and his wife about a month ago. They said he is a very interesting person and really loves his dogs and dog training in general.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

So of course your implying that us "Cesar haters" have never done any work/training with aggressive dogs right?  

In my short time with dog training, I've already encountered some pretty DA pitbulls and have used my pitbull, Hades to help desensitize them to other dogs impressively. 

And yano what I didn't **** my pants either! Wow eh!

If your for Cesar good for you!

I could care less, but the fact that now your stating anyone who hates Cesar probably hasn't done some of the things he has with success is just plain BS.

Many of the clicker trainers cshellenburger mentioned work with some pretty highly reactive dogs and am quite sure they don't agree with Cesar's methods.

We all get it, you love Cesar and you've labelled us "Cesar haters" even though many of us have stated there are some methods we agree with. Just don't go around ASSUMING that you know what any of us have done with dogs because you have no idea.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Captbob said:


> \
> His crew is always instructed to not move, when they shoot this type of scene, which they always do live. This one sound boom tech decided this time to walk around during the shoot, and the dog nipped him. ( guess he won't do that again) . That is what happens when you don't listen to Cesar.  How you get *audacity* out of that, I can't figure out..


You quoted me, made fun of things I did not say, and then you didn't even answer my question. It was a serious question, BTW.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I watched the episode last night with the Mexican dogs, I was glad to see him involved with rescue. I've NEVER said the man didn't love dogs. I did however feel HORRIBLE for the little crested mix, that was CLEARLY in pain and terrified. The little guy could have been desensitized to other dogs in a slower manner and it would have done MUCH more good. Hopefully he'll get the medical attention he needed.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Cheetah said:


> You quoted me, made fun of things I did not say, and then you didn't even answer my question. It was a serious question, BTW.


Sorry about that, I quoted the wrong post, To answer your question, it was on this past Friday Night....


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

I think I stated that it was a Pit Bull mix that bit one of his crew. I got my episodes mixed up as it may have been rather, a Dalmation/Shepard mix that was the aggressive dog in this particular story. I'd have to go back and watch it again for sure. He had so many Pit Bulls, mixes and Rotties on the six episodes I saw, I got it all congealed together! Either way, he got the dog's aggression toward people/other dogs under control and that was the important thing for the owners.

I don't get the National Geo channel but my sister loves Cesar and sent me a video with about six different episodes in which this was one of them.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Does this mean the new season has started? I'm so behind. >@[email protected]< I also can't wait for those two new training shows on Animal Planet. I love watching any shows I can about dog training.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

For the Dog Whisperer I think it does. I'm going to have to call Comcast and get an upgrade so I can get National Geo and the Animal Planet.

BTW-Hope Shippo is doing better lately.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

I love how people say alpha rolling is outdated, even though they probably don't understand the circumstances that outdated it.

1. Not everyone uses alpha rolling the same way.

2. Most people that used to prescribe alpha rolling also prescribed yelling at the dog while doing it, biting it with your actual mouth, growing at it, etc. - it was about aggression, not dominance.

3. Alpha rolling became unpopular when the all positive training started, mostly during the 80's with the advent of a couple authors who didn't agree with it.

What is the conclusion? The majority of the dog training world has adopted an OPINION about alpha rolling from the positive reinforcement crowd that they try to pass off as SCIENTIFIC FACT.

Unfortunately, most dog trainers are not behaviorists, nor are they ethologists. The same trainers that tell you not to alpha roll are the same trainers that tell you to throw treats at an aggressive dog with piloerection and curled lips.

Cesar uses alpha rolling in a different manner; as he shows you, calm assertive. He doesn't growl, bite, yell, or strike the dog when he does it, which is how alpha rolling probably got a bad reputation.

The real fact of the matter is that it doesn't traumatize the dog the way Cesar does it, nor does it make the situation worse. Some "trainers" and books I've read will say that wild dogs don't do that, which is not true. They will then go on to say that we shouldn't even associate dog behavior with wolves or wild dogs because of their domestication, which is an absolute joke.

You have to be careful who you are listening to and taking advice from. To this day I have not read one single article or listened to one single person who can prove that APPROPRIATE alpha rolling is ineffective or give any good reason why it shouldn't be used.

If you have ever seen wild dogs or wolves, you will note that they don't use 100% positive reinforcement on each other.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

It doesn't traumatize the dog?

You can't be serious?

I agree with the latter part of your post, hence why I don't use PURELY positive with my dogs. I do agree that dogs can and DO learn by correction.

Alpha rolling IMO of course, is used to "dominate" a dog.

Hopefully no one is using it as a correction for every little thing, can we at least agree what alpha rolling is used for?

To assert dominance right. Forcing the dog into the submissive position on their back and holding them there. Right? Still with me?

While I'm sure that for the first hour or two, or maybe less after being rolled the dog appears to be in a calm subbmissive state of mind it's NOT a permanent fix. A dominant dog requires a lot more than a five minute alpha roll to fix the issue.

My point being, the other excercises/methods that you have to combine with the alpha roll work without it anyways. So why risk traumatizing the dog and getting bit, when you have to do other methods ANYWAYS to solve the problem.

And the other issue with Cesar alpha rolling the dogs is if his goal is to submit a dominant dog, how does this help the owner? The owner isn't the one dominating the dog or risking their limbs, so how does it help after Cesar leaves and the dog guards his toy or bone?

Dominant dogs, needs educated owners. That implement the excercises that were lacking when the dog first became dominant. Not a five minute alpha roll to risk the dog ACTUALLY biting and possibly scarring them mentally.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

My Dear, here's a 30 year study that shows the original, short term study the Alpha Rolling was based on was incorrec
.
http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm

I have cited several other studies, of dog and wolf packs that say the same thing. I'll have to find them. Saying that it can't be scientifically proven is incorrect, it has been! 

Here are some other articles.
http://sfspca.org/behavior/dog_library/reconsidering_dominance.pdf

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/macho.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_roll


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

That's the first time I've seen those links cshellenburger. I'm looking at the first now.

Interesting, thanks for posting them


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Yes GoodBullyLLC. Those of us who use the dogs resources to train them just made it up out of the blue so we can bash those that still live on the alpha/dominance wolf theories, without any point of reference other than we feel so sorry for our abused doggies. Give me a break. You may actually want to pick up a current dog training textbook by the other trainers and behaviorists named in this thread, excluding Cesar. You may learn something.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Alpha said:


> It doesn't traumatize the dog?
> 
> You can't be serious?


Depends on what you feel is traumatic. Talking about temporary trauma and temporary emotions is a waste of our time.

If you have evidence that it traumatizes the dog long term, that is something we could spend time on. However, there is no evidence that supports long term trauma.



> I agree with the latter part of your post, hence why I don't use PURELY positive with my dogs. I do agree that dogs can and DO learn by correction.
> 
> Alpha rolling IMO of course, is used to "dominate" a dog.
> 
> Hopefully no one is using it as a correction for every little thing, can we at least agree what alpha rolling is used for?


Doing it correctly asserts dominance. Most people who don't agree with it don't agree because they feel it is aggressive, but done correctly it is not aggressive.



> To assert dominance right. Forcing the dog into the submissive position on their back and holding them there. Right? Still with me?
> 
> While I'm sure that for the first hour or two, or maybe less after being rolled the dog appears to be in a calm subbmissive state of mind it's NOT a permanent fix. A dominant dog requires a lot more than a five minute alpha roll to fix the issue.


The alpha roll is just a tool like any other correction method. It isn't an end all or magic trick. The correction the dog receives should be based on the act it committed. The alpha roll should be reserved for serious actions that warrant its use, such as biting or attacking another dog. It should only be used in extreme circumstances.



> My point being, the other excercises/methods that you have to combine with the alpha roll work without it anyways. So why risk traumatizing the dog and getting bit, when you have to do other methods ANYWAYS to solve the problem.


Sometimes the alpha roll can prevent you from being bitten. And yes, most of the time you don't have to use it. For example, I only use it as a highest consequence, when the dog has physically harmed or attempted to harm another dog or human.



> And the other issue with Cesar alpha rolling the dogs is if his goal is to submit a dominant dog, how does this help the owner? The owner isn't the one dominating the dog or risking their limbs, so how does it help after Cesar leaves and the dog guards his toy or bone?


I don't recall Cesar ever telling the owner to use the alpha roll so he isn't doing it for them. It helps CESAR further rehabilitate the dog so he can make more progress in a shorter amount of time. And I rarely see him do it except in the aggressive cases when the dog has tried to attack or bite. But do you think the dog can only be corrected by its owner? Bone aggression isn't directed toward certain individuals, it is directed toward animals in general. A dog trainer can fix that without the owner in the room and then give the owner a dog who may never show signs of bone aggression again. Would you disagree?



> Dominant dogs, needs educated owners. That implement the excercises that were lacking when the dog first became dominant. Not a five minute alpha roll to risk the dog ACTUALLY biting and possibly scarring them mentally.


Like I said, I've never seen Cesar recommend that to his clients. It's something he uses so he can continue with the rehab without backing down to the dog and he only uses it as a highest consequence.

You are absolutely right that owners of dominant dogs need more education, not more techniques.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Yes GoodBullyLLC. Those of us who use the dogs resources to train them just made it up out of the blue so we can bash those that still live on the alpha/dominance wolf theories, without any point of reference other than we feel so sorry for our abused doggies. Give me a break.


You obviously haven't read any of my materials.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm also sorry that you don't understand where the basis of controlling resources came from (wolf pack theory). I'm also sorry that you don't seem to believe alpha/dominance exists.



> You may actually want to pick up a current dog training textbook by the other trainers and behaviorists named in this thread, excluding Cesar. You may learn something.


So you imply that wolf pack theory has no relevance and then tell ME to go learn something?



cshellenberger said:


> My Dear, here's a 30 year study that shows the original, short term study the Alpha Rolling was based on was incorrec
> .
> http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Training/alpha-roll_no.htm
> 
> ...


I didn't get very far in your first link before finding a myth:

"A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?"

That is not true.

Have you ever seen two dogs fight? Does the fight always end in death? 

Wolves try not to kill each other, it hurts the progress of hunting and raises the chances of injury to the killer. Wolves rarely kill each other unless a wolf is dragging the pack down with an injury or other problem/issue.

And if this is a freaking study, why are they asking the readers the questions? They ask us to imagine what it does to a dogs psyche...why don't they tell us? They are supposed to be the researchers.

They don't tell you because they haven't done the research to figure out the data. It does nothing to the psyche of a dog long term; and I'll press you to prove me wrong. I could go on with more myths from that so-called "study" if you'd like. If I know one thing it's politics and I'd be very interested to find out the personal beliefs of this so-called researcher.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

> The alpha roll is just a tool like any other correction method. It isn't an end all or magic trick. The correction the dog receives should be based on the act it committed. The alpha roll should be reserved for serious actions that warrant its use, such as biting or attacking another dog. It should only be used in extreme circumstances.


For the first sentence, what's the point in using the alpha roll if it's not an end all? I just don't understand? Everything I do with my dogs when it comes to corrections has a PURPOSE and I see results, either immediately or shortly thereafter. For example, with my dominant bitch, the tethering method got me results in a matter of hours and was a PERMANENT fix to our furniture issues.

For heel lagging, I give my dogs a leash correction, they catch up...

My dogs are fighting too rough in the house... Verbal correction, they stop...

My dogs are jumping up, I turn my back, they sit..

Granted with the latter, in the beginning the behaviour has to be repeated a few times for the dog to get it, but you IMMEDIATELY see results. At least in my experience.

So you correct your dogs for biting another dog, when in fact you should probably be working on something else. Perhaps proofing sit stays, your recall... I can't really think of anything else, because my dogs don't interact with strange dogs. 

I can relate it to my two sometimes bickering, but it's never been serious, and all it takes is a glance or sometimes a sharp "WRONG!" and they're done. Once again pack leadership (for which I don't do physically) would avoid that situation. After I correc them, they immediately go to their respective corners and submit. In a down, ears back, limited eye contact. And can you imagine? I do it without forcing them onto their backs and holding them there by the throat.

As for food aggression, I agree, but it's just one of many problems that arise out of dominance. Which is, in my understanding, what the alpha roll is used for. Asserting dominance. There's no need to assert dominance on a submissive dog (in alpha rollers minds) so therefore they must be alpha rolling dogs that they've labelled dominant right?

As for the situations that you personally alpha roll a dog, I have to disagree with those tactics, at least in my life with my dogs. Both circumstances I would bring back to MY role as the leader. My dogs know that if I'm present, (seeing as I'm the leader) I am in control. This means that in other words, if they were to take control of the situation, I would be lacking somewhere in our life as a leader.

I am leader. I'm in charge. *I* make the decisions around here. My dogs know that.

For both circumstances attacking the issue physically will only make it worse.

I own a human agressive dog. She'd bite you without a reason if I wasn't there. I can guarentee it. Alpha rolling isn't going to change that, only make her MORE apt to react that way again, because in her mind, it was the person she bit that made me act this way.

Much like in theory, how chained dogs usually become aggressive. Person comes around, I get a pain in my neck... Err, I hate people.

With human aggression coupled with alpha rolling, it only makes them dislike the whole situation more, leading to probably more hatred towards the situation.

I don't like that person. I'll bite them. Mommy just threw me to the floor and kept me there. Stupid person, it's all their fault.

Granted I'm sure, some dogs understand the alpha roll somewhat as a correction, IMO, correcting the dog for something that the owner should've already trained for is not the dogs mistake to be corrected.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

For all Cesar lovers out there-he's got a five hour programs starting at 7:00 EST until 12:00 Tonight!! Put that VHS cartridge in!


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Elijah said:


> For all Cesar lovers out there-he's got a five hour programs starting at 7:00 EST until 12:00 Tonight!! Put that VHS cartridge in!


I'll remember to take notes


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Alpha said:


> For the first sentence, what's the point in using the alpha roll if it's not an end all? I just don't understand? Everything I do with my dogs when it comes to corrections has a PURPOSE and I see results, either immediately or shortly thereafter. For example, with my dominant bitch, the tethering method got me results in a matter of hours and was a PERMANENT fix to our furniture issues.


You wouldn't agree that it ends the situation when done properly? It isn't an end all to dominant or fearful behavior, but it is usually an end all to the situation and the dog knows it lost.

You seem to also be implying that if you always make your dog lose at tug of war it won't help your dominance over him.

It DOES assert dominance, but it also ends the situation and calms the dog back down.



> For heel lagging, I give my dogs a leash correction, they catch up...


Me too.



> My dogs are fighting too rough in the house... Verbal correction, they stop...


Same here.



> My dogs are jumping up, I turn my back, they sit..


ditto. Or I body block them and and keep moving.



> Granted with the latter, in the beginning the behaviour has to be repeated a few times for the dog to get it, but you IMMEDIATELY see results. At least in my experience.


Mine too.



> So you correct your dogs for biting another dog, when in fact you should probably be working on something else. Perhaps proofing sit stays, your recall... I can't really think of anything else, because my dogs don't interact with strange dogs.


My dogs don't bite other dogs--I work with dogs that do however.



> I can relate it to my two sometimes bickering, but it's never been serious, and all it takes is a glance or sometimes a sharp "WRONG!" and they're done. Once again pack leadership (for which I don't do physically) would avoid that situation. After I correc them, they immediately go to their respective corners and submit. In a down, ears back, limited eye contact. And can you imagine? I do it without forcing them onto their backs and holding them there by the throat.


The only reason you hold them by the throat is to control the mouth so they can't bite you - otherwise you should hold by the scruff of the neck. You make it seem like Cesar grabs the throat as an aggressive action or integral part of the alpha roll, which isn't true.



> As for food aggression, I agree, but it's just one of many problems that arise out of dominance. Which is, in my understanding, what the alpha roll is used for. Asserting dominance. There's no need to assert dominance on a submissive dog (in alpha rollers minds) so therefore they must be alpha rolling dogs that they've labelled dominant right?


Not necessarily. Cesar uses it on fearfully aggressive dogs. I have as well. Not all aggression arises from dominance.



> As for the situations that you personally alpha roll a dog, I have to disagree with those tactics, at least in my life with my dogs. Both circumstances I would bring back to MY role as the leader. My dogs know that if I'm present, (seeing as I'm the leader) I am in control. This means that in other words, if they were to take control of the situation, I would be lacking somewhere in our life as a leader.


You are absolutely right. I'm not arguing with you, I'm simply stating that the alpha roll IS a good tactic depending on the action of the dog. I don't use it on my dogs; only dogs I work with who I have to help quickly and then give back to the owner, whom I promptly give a dominance program sheet to which says not to engage in behavior that causes the dog to be aggressive.

Cesar has to use it to control a pack of dogs, many of which are not his. I've never, ever, seen him do it to one of the dogs he owns; he doesn't have to.



> I am leader. I'm in charge. *I* make the decisions around here. My dogs know that.


So do Cesar's and so do mine. I'm glad your dogs respect you as leader, it sounds like you have a very healthy relationship with them.



> For both circumstances attacking the issue physically will only make it worse.


If you "attack" the issues then yes, it probably will. If you calmly "handle" the issue it probably won't.



> I own a human agressive dog. She'd bite you without a reason if I wasn't there. I can guarentee it. Alpha rolling isn't going to change that, only make her MORE apt to react that way again, because in her mind, it was the person she bit that made me act this way.


Alpha rolling isn't a tactic you go in with, it is a response to an action. If I was going to help rehabilitate your dog I wouldn't ring your door bell and then say "step one is to roll this dog over, let's get going!"



> Much like in theory, how chained dogs usually become aggressive. Person comes around, I get a pain in my neck... Err, I hate people.


I don't feel that is why chained dogs get aggressive. Chained dogs usually get aggressive because they are otherwise abused and neglected BY people. Also, they usually display dominant aggressive behavior to people walking by who don't want anything to do with the dog, therefore the dog gains confidence by making these people "go away", and then repeats the behavior.

If you tied the dog to a tree with a padded harness on instead of a collar do you think it would automatically get aggressive after a while solely because of that position?



> With human aggression coupled with alpha rolling, it only makes them dislike the whole situation more, leading to probably more hatred towards the situation.


No, because after the roll is successful and the dog has calmed down it gets rewarded extensively during its calm submissive period; praised by the person it "hates" - does praise make it hate the person more?



> I don't like that person. I'll bite them. Mommy just threw me to the floor and kept me there. Stupid person, it's all their fault.


I don't throw dogs to the floor.



> Granted I'm sure, some dogs understand the alpha roll somewhat as a correction, IMO, correcting the dog for something that the owner should've already trained for is not the dogs mistake to be corrected.


This is true. But what if it isn't your dog and you don't have a months or lifetime of opportunity to rehabilitate it.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

what were we saying about pointless discussions?.....

I have to wonder when does a discussion get to a point where the original topic is irrelevant and the only thing that matters is who is right and who is wrong. I read somewhere that the only thing two dog trainers can agree on is that a third one is wrong. 

Some of this discussion reminds of of the sort of thing I was talking about a few pages back when I said that no matter what sort of evidence is presented to prove a point wrong, it is met with "it doesn't apply" "that can't be proven" or something along those lines.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm also sorry that you don't understand where the basis of controlling resources came from (wolf pack theory). I'm also sorry that you don't seem to believe alpha/dominance exists.


Why would you feel sorry for me? You don't know anything about my understanding, or what you're not including in yours. Frankly, wolf pack theories are not applicable to dogs. Dog group theory is applicable to dogs, and the role of the "alphas" in a dog group is not domination (use of force), it's in controlling resources. Beta dogs use dominance, not the alpha. But you haven't gotten there yet. Read Carla's links, and maybe you'll have a new perspective.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Why would you feel sorry for me? You don't know anything about my understanding, or what you're not including in yours. Frankly, wolf pack theories are not applicable to dogs. Dog group theory is applicable to dogs, and the role of the "alphas" in a dog group is not domination (use of force), it's in controlling resources. Beta dogs use dominance, not the alpha. But you haven't gotten there yet. Read Carla's links, and maybe you'll have a new perspective.


I'm afraid you are misguided, and I can prove that simply by your choice of words.

Saying wolf pack theories aren't applicable to dogs is ridiculous. The wolf is a common ancestor to dogs.

The second is the fact that you relate "dominance" to "use of force" - they have nothing to do with each other.

"alpha's don't use dominance" - You would think that if you had no understanding of what dominance is. I feel it is you that needs the education.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

> "alpha's don't use dominance" - You would think that if you had no understanding of what dominance is. I feel it is you that needs the education.


I don't see what's wrong with that misrepresented quote anyways.

I have an agressive, tendency to become dominant bitch. I am leader and I've done so with NO physical tendencies.

I think it's called for that I repeat how outwardly agressive this dog is as well. (We are working on it) A mix of genetics and environment allowed this dog to become a "mean eating person machine". She'll bite you if you pat her the wrong way. She'll bite you if you don't pat her. She'll bite you if you smell funny... So on and so forth. It's all just basically theoretical, because she trully has not bit anyone to date, BUT her body language and flash of teeth is pretty convincing I must say.

In the very beginning, when I was first learning about dog training and trying new methods, I've always known the basic description of a leader. The link cshellenburger, the first one, explains it as I have come to know it best.

Leaders are calm. This means no screaming, no temper tantrums and definitely no freaking out and smacking someone. Leaders are confident.

I'm pretty sure that's what Curbside was getting at. ALPHA's do NOT use force USUALLY to get to their status or to maintain it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> I'm afraid you are misguided, and I can prove that simply by your choice of words.
> 
> Saying wolf pack theories aren't applicable to dogs is ridiculous. The wolf is a common ancestor to dogs.
> 
> ...


1) It hasn't been proven that our dogs ancestors were wolves. Yes they are both canines, but this does not mean they are direct descendants of one another. Have you tried taming a wolf recently? 

2) The word dominance in dog training derived from the study of wolves, and so did the use of force like alpha rolling, scruff shakes, and bite imitation. We can get into the semantics of the word dominance, but unless you understand the origins of the word as used in dog behavior, that debate will be an exercise in futility. Much like this thread in general.

3) My understanding in the role of the alpha is different than Cesar's and probably yours too, so yes, I choose not to use the word dominance. It's not an accurate term in describing a resource controller. 

4) Yes, I will never call myself an expert because there will always be something new for me to learn. Unlike some people I suppose. I had the same beliefs as Cesar did at one time about how to approach dog training, and yes, I did need an education then, and I'm glad I found it. I hope you're open to more learning too, because I care not to keep you defensive.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I don't see what's wrong with that misrepresented quote anyways.
> 
> I have an agressive, tendency to become dominant bitch. I am leader and I've done so with NO physical tendencies.
> 
> ...


Dominance is not force, hence my original post stating that he doesn't know what dominance is.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I think it's extremely rude for a person to join a forum, not even introduce themselves, and then immediately start attacking, belittling, and otherwise insulting the other members, telling them they don't know anything etc. >X.x;< Attitudes like this make me twitch.

There are far more productive ways of educating people than telling them they don't know anything about something. If you really wanted to sway somebody, you'd be more polite.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> 1) It hasn't been proven that our dogs ancestors were wolves. Yes they are both canines, but this does not mean they are direct descendants of one another. Have you tried taming a wolf recently?


It HAS been proven that dogs and wolves are ancestors; what are you talking about?



> 2) The word dominance in dog training derived from the study of wolves, and so did the use of force like alpha rolling, scruff shakes, and bite imitation.


Dominance, as you misunderstand it, is actually just the highest status member of a social group. It isn't an adjective, it is a noun.



> We can get into the semantics of the word dominance, but unless you understand the origins of the word as used in dog behavior, that debate will be an exercise in futility. Much like this thread in general.


Read above.



> 3) My understanding in the role of the alpha is different than Cesar's and probably yours too, so yes, I choose not to use the word dominance. It's not an accurate term in describing a resource controller.


My point exactly - you don't understand the use of the word dominance.



> 4) Yes, I will never call myself an expert because there will always be something new for me to learn. Unlike some people I suppose. I had the same beliefs as Cesar did at one time about how to approach dog training, and yes, I did need an education then, and I'm glad I found it. I hope you're open to more learning too, because I care not to keep you defensive.


Cesar isn't a dog trainer - yet one more point you fail to grasp.



Cheetah said:


> I think it's extremely rude for a person to join a forum, not even introduce themselves, and then immediately start attacking, belittling, and otherwise insulting the other members, telling them they don't know anything etc. >X.x;< Attitudes like this make me twitch.
> 
> There are far more productive ways of educating people than telling them they don't know anything about something. If you really wanted to sway somebody, you'd be more polite.


Can you point me to where I told someone they don't know anything?

So far I have made arguments that disagree with points made. Apparently you don't agree and only see the act as "attacking, belittling, and otherwise insulting" - that is your choice.

I encourage everyone here to research the subjects as much as possible. If I disagree that is all it is, a disagreement. I will give my points and my sources as I go; but to say what I am doing is rude is rude in itself.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> I love how people say alpha rolling is outdated, even though they probably don't understand the circumstances that outdated it.
> 
> 1. Not everyone uses alpha rolling the same way.
> 
> ...


You are not going to be well received in this forum, although you are right...... There are some people here that apparently think they are totally correct, and yet they disagree with very experienced professional trainers. I know two very sucessfull pro trainers and when I tell them some of the stuff I read on these Cesar threads, they just roll their eyes and laugh.....


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> So you imply that wolf pack theory has no relevance and then tell ME to go learn something?





GoodBullyLLC said:


> "alpha's don't use dominance" - You would think that if you had no understanding of what dominance is.





GoodBullyLLC said:


> Dominance is not force, hence my original post stating that he doesn't know what dominance is





GoodBullyLLC said:


> Dominance, as you misunderstand it,





GoodBullyLLC said:


> Cesar isn't a dog trainer - yet one more point you fail to grasp.


There was something else, where you said "glad I proved you wrong," but you seem to have removed it after I posted my reply about being rude and you telling me to prove it. I mean, I wasn't even the person these were directed at, and I still found rude and unnecessary to reply in such a way.

Also, you don't know what I agree and disagree with as far as training goes, so please don't try to assume that. Thanks.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> It HAS been proven that dogs and wolves are ancestors; what are you talking about?


Ah yes, so we are ancestors of the chimpanzee then? Sounds good to me. But I won't be raising my children like chimpanzees do. 

There's no evidence that wolves can be tamed. If wolves can't be tamed, how did our companion dogs come to be? Wolves and dogs are distant relatives, but there are other species of canine that split from the wolf, and the evolution of these animals led to behaviors that are not similar to wolves. Our study of behavior should be of animals more closely related to our dogs, like the village dog. Village dogs and our companion dogs are nothing like wolves, and there's a relationship there that relates to us that in my mind is more applicable. 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> Dominance, as you misunderstand it, is actually a simple description to describe the highest status member of a social group. It isn't an adjective, it is a noun.


Then Dr. Yin is wrong?

Dr. Sophia Yin, who teaches at the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine – Davis, and is a member of the American Society of Veterinary Behavior says, "Dominance is defined as the use of force to gain priority access of the things you want, so animals compete for food, toys and favorite resting areas by fighting. Leadership is the ability to convince others to do things they normally wouldn't do otherwise. A person can be a leader by bullying, or by providing incentives and rewards; in other words convincing followers you're working for the same goals. Would you rather follow a leader like Castro or Ghandi? It's no different for dogs." 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> I'm glad I just proved you wrong then.


Makes sense that this is your intent, but it's laughable. You need to read about Dr. Frank Beach's study on dog groups before we can have any kind of productive discussion.



GoodBullyLLC said:


> Cesar isn't a dog trainer - yet one more point you fail to grasp.


Ah yes, silly me. His leash corrections are on the owner, that's right. I guess I should have been gullible and used one of those catchy phrases like Cesar uses instead. "I don't train dogs, I train people." Well, whatever he's "training" he often feeds them wolf thoeries and the need for "dominance". 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> Can you point me to where I told someone they don't know anything?


I guess we should have overlooked you calling at least me "misguided". 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> So far I have made arguments that disagree with points made. Apparently you don't agree and only see the act as "attacking, belittling, and otherwise insulting" - that is your choice.


FYI, I haven't chosen to be insulted, yet. I tend to stay amused before I get insulted. But much like you, I can disagree too.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Oh, look, CP found that quote that disappeared lol...

Anyway, I was not on this thread to argue about methods. If you want to know my beliefs, I believe that every dog is different and will require different methods, and I am open to most methods, starting with the least aversive and moving on up from there.

I was only on here asking for just a little more err... politeness, and a little less sarcasm because being on a high horse does not sway people in the least, it only makes them angry, and inflames the thread. I am here to keep the peace. >u.u<


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Ah yes, so we are ancestors of the chimpanzee then? Sounds good to me. But I won't be raising my children like chimpanzees do.


Why are you putting humans, who are above all animals, on the same level as chimps though? Dogs are not exponentially greater than a wolf the same as humans are exponentially greater than apes.

You are comparing apples to oranges.



> There's no evidence that wolves can be tamed. If wolves can't be tamed, how did our companion dogs come to be?


This has nothing to do with anything.



> Wolves and dogs are distant relatives, but there are other species of canine that split from the wolf, and the evolution of these animals led to behaviors that are not similar to wolves.


Yeah? prove it.



> Our study of behavior should be of animals more closely related to our dogs, like the village dog. Village dogs and our companion dogs are nothing like wolves, and there's a relationship there that relates to us that in my mind is more applicable.


Dogs are pack animals. Then we have people like you, who suggest we study the behavior of domesticated village dogs who roam solo. When you start making sense I'll start taking you seriously.



> Then Dr. Yin is wrong?
> 
> Dr. Sophia Yin, who teaches at the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine – Davis, and is a member of the American Society of Veterinary Behavior says, "Dominance is defined as the use of force to gain priority access of the things you want, so animals compete for food, toys and favorite resting areas by fighting. Leadership is the ability to convince others to do things they normally wouldn't do otherwise. A person can be a leader by bullying, or by providing incentives and rewards; in other words convincing followers you're working for the same goals. Would you rather follow a leader like Castro or Ghandi? It's no different for dogs."
> 
> ...


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

In my opinion, owning a DOMINANT dog, it is an adjective. It DESCRIBES a behaviour, in my household it isn't a "status". It's a behaviour, period.

I use the term (alpha), but in my world it's more or less referring to my role as a leader in general.

My bitch has tonnes of dominant behaviours. It's not a "status".

[email protected] I know it's not intended to be funny, but I'm getting a giggle 

Captbob- I know, after seeing some of the methods you consider to be conventional, feel awfully sorry for your dog and hope that your plans to use an e-collar don't turn sour. 

These so called "trainers" you speak of either one: Have been mislead by YOU regarding the topics at hand or two, are feeding you BS because it's quite clear your not knowledgable about dog behaviours and training and you eat it all up. I highly suspect that the trainer you speak to isn't going to talk down about Cesar when he supposedly goes to dinner at his house. ROFL

I wonder why someone who owns a pet dog is resorting to such tactics anyways.... Probably more of a power trip than anything and these trainers will probably empty your pockets because you look an awful lot like a sucker.

I love forums that have different ideas and methods in training. You'll never know anything and it only helps further your knowledge.

But when it comes to methods or ideas that are seriously outdated, that's a different story altogether.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Ah yes, so we are ancestors of the chimpanzee then? Sounds good to me. But I won't be raising my children like chimpanzees do.


Why are you putting humans, who are above all animals, on the same level as chimps though? Dogs are not exponentially greater than a wolf the same as humans are exponentially greater than apes.

You are comparing apples to oranges.



> There's no evidence that wolves can be tamed. If wolves can't be tamed, how did our companion dogs come to be?


This has nothing to do with anything.



> Wolves and dogs are distant relatives, but there are other species of canine that split from the wolf, and the evolution of these animals led to behaviors that are not similar to wolves.


Yeah? prove it.



> Our study of behavior should be of animals more closely related to our dogs, like the village dog. Village dogs and our companion dogs are nothing like wolves, and there's a relationship there that relates to us that in my mind is more applicable.


Dogs are pack animals. Then we have people like you, who suggest we study the behavior of domesticated village dogs who roam solo. When you start making sense I'll start taking you seriously.



> Then Dr. Yin is wrong?
> 
> Dr. Sophia Yin, who teaches at the University of California School of Veterinary Medicine – Davis, and is a member of the American Society of Veterinary Behavior says, "Dominance is defined as the use of force to gain priority access of the things you want, so animals compete for food, toys and favorite resting areas by fighting. Leadership is the ability to convince others to do things they normally wouldn't do otherwise. A person can be a leader by bullying, or by providing incentives and rewards; in other words convincing followers you're working for the same goals. Would you rather follow a leader like Castro or Ghandi? It's no different for dogs."


It is different for dogs. She gives dogs way too much credit.

For one, dogs don't really choose, they live a life based solely on survival. If the pack helps them survive, they stick with the pack. Dr. Yin apparently is suggesting that dogs have complex emotional traits and that alphas have the ability to "convince" the other dogs of something.

And I'm not real sure what her goal here is? Is she suggesting that dominance is bad and leadership is good? If that is the case, yes, she's completely wrong because dominance and leadership are positively correlated.

And dominance is not always the use of force; she is incorrect.



> Makes sense that this is your intent, but it's laughable. You need to read about Dr. Frank Beach's study on dog groups before we can have any kind of productive discussion.


I need to read this, I need to read that...



> Ah yes, silly me. His leash corrections are on the owner, that's right. I guess I should have been gullible and used one of those catchy phrases like Cesar uses instead. "I don't train dogs, I train people." Well, whatever he's "training" he often feeds them wolf thoeries and the need for "dominance".


I'm convinced you haven't really watched much of his show.



> I guess we should have overlooked you calling at least me "misguided".


Saying you are misguided isn't an insult, it's an observation. 



> FYI, I haven't chosen to be insulted, yet. I tend to stay amused before I get insulted. But much like you, I can disagree too.


I applaud you for that.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> In my opinion, owning a DOMINANT dog, it is an adjective. It DESCRIBES a behaviour, in my household it isn't a "status". It's a behaviour, period.
> 
> I use the term (alpha), but in my world it's more or less referring to my role as a leader in general.
> 
> ...


One thing you seem to have honed to a T, is your ability to call people things like "ignorant", "misguided", trying to convince everyone that you are some sort of expert, when it is becoming pretty apparent that you think you know a heck of a lot more than you actually do. You twist things that people say to fit the point that you try to make. *Where did I say that the trainers I knew went to Cesars house? Just another thing that you fabricated....
*
You have been acting like you have some vast experience in training and at the same time ridiculing the opinions of people with decades of experience, so my question to you is ...* What kind of actual training experience do you have that you feel entitiles you to pass yourself off as any kind of expert?. *Are you a* full time trainer*, or do you just train a couple of dogs that you own? 

Some of the things that you are stating like your take on E-collars tells me that you are sort of a "legend in your own mind" . I usually don't like insulting people, but at this point in time, I think that you have hurled enough insults at more than just me, to deserve some bounced back at you. When you can have an intelligent discussion without calling other people ignorant, full of BS, telling them they can't spell. ( By the way, might be a good idea to run some of your posts though a grammar checker before posting them ) and some of your other choice comments, then you maybe you will not come off as someone who sounds like they have a self inflated opinion of themselves.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> Why are you putting humans, who are above all animals, on the same level as chimps though? Dogs are not exponentially greater than a wolf the same as humans are exponentially greater than apes.
> 
> You are comparing apples to oranges.


But dogs are exponentially greater. Wolves were once on the indangered species list, were they not? How close are dogs being placed on the indangered species list? With our current dog over population problem? I'd say dogs are way more successful than wolves by this point alone.

Wolves = apples. Dogs = oranges. Yes, that's what I'm saying.



GoodBullyLLC said:


> This has nothing to do with anything.


Thus your road block in understanding my point of view. You blindly accept wolf theories.



GoodBullyLLC said:


> Yeah? prove it.


Hmmm, I wonder what a coyote is then? Or a jackle? Or a dingo? I could get into evolution, biology, and genetics, but the last time I tried that I got the _I don't know nutt'n bout dat, but I still tink you're wrong _act. For this I'd recommend you learn this on your own.



GoodBullyLLC said:


> Dogs are pack animals. Then we have people like you, who suggest we study the behavior of domesticated village dogs who roam solo. When you start making sense I'll start taking you seriously.


Study village dogs, they don't all roam solo, nor do they pack. I'd even recommend visiting a third world country and witness the behaviors yourself. Not much pack hunting going on, I'll assure you of that. 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> It is different for dogs. She gives dogs way too much credit.


Ummm, hmmm.



GoodBullyLLC said:


> For one, dogs don't really choose, they live a life based solely on survival. If the pack helps them survive, they stick with the pack. Dr. Yin apparently is suggesting that dogs have complex emotional traits and that alphas have the ability to "convince" the other dogs of something.
> 
> And I'm not real sure what her goal here is? Is she suggesting that dominance is bad and leadership is good? If that is the case, yes, she's completely wrong because dominance and leadership are positively correlated.
> 
> ...


Yes, you need to read "that" to understand her perspective. Until you have a clue what we're referring to, you will run into the same arguments. 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> I'm convinced you haven't really watched much of his show.


I have noticed that you like to assume things are the way the are based on minimal information. Do you approach dog training the same way? 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> Saying you are misguided isn't an insult, it's an observation.


I'll agree on this point, because I feel the same about calling someone ignorant.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> I didn't get very far in your first link before finding a myth:
> 
> "A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?"
> 
> ...


The article appears to acknowledge a difference between a forced alpha roll and voluntary submission, which, in previous studies, had been misinterpreted as forced alpha rolls.


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

curbside, i agree with you 100 % when it comes too good bully. good bully, you stated in another thread that if anyone wanted to argue with you about dog training, they should meet you here. I must ask you one thing though, what makes you such a pro? Where did you receive your training? Owning a bully breed dog does not make you an authority on dogs. Your ideas about training actually worry me. it makes me wonder if you are not one of the many that train these dogs to be so wild. 

Dr Yins has spent years researching the habits of these dogs, as has Czar Milan, how many years have you done this? You are all bark and no action from what i am reading. you know nothing about training animals, you just roam these sites looking for people to fight or argue with. 

ALPHA refering to people as ignorant or misguided, is unbelievable, how much experience do you have, stop, read and think before you respond, or at least learn something about the things that you are talking about. 

both of you learn to stop looking for arguments, stop assasinating and trying to bait people into an argument. i am sure there are forums somewhere on the net designed for the arguers of the world.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

bearlasmom said:


> ALPHA refering to people as ignorant or misguided, is unbelievable, how much experience do you have, stop, read and think before you respond, or at least learn something about the things that you are talking about.
> 
> both of you learn to stop looking for arguments, stop assasinating and trying to bait people into an argument. i am sure there are forums somewhere on the net designed for the arguers of the world.


Obviously this is directed towards me and I'm not sure I understand why if you agree with Curb... I've been agreeing with her all along.

Perhaps it is YOU that should re-read the post before YOU respond.

I have read numerous theories and applied them to my own dogs. I work with my dogs more than the average dog owner in general. Actually, I work more with my dogs than many people who do show in dog sports. I work with my dogs EVERYDAY and apply ALL of the methods I've spoken about here on my dogs and other dogs as well.

This is a public forum and I and other can say what they please. If they don't wish to respond, they don't have to.

So what's the problem?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

bearlasmom said:


> Czar Milan


Not even I would go that far, lol.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> Unfortunately, most dog trainers are not behaviorists, nor are they ethologists.The same trainers that tell you not to alpha roll are the same trainers that tell you to throw treats at an aggressive dog with piloerection and curled lips


Can you name one Ethologist, Certified Animal Behaviorist, or Veterinary Behaviorist who agrees with alpha rolling a dog?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Captbob said:


> One thing you seem to have honed to a T, is your ability to call people things like "ignorant", "misguided", trying to convince everyone that you are some sort of expert, when it is becoming pretty apparent that you think you know a heck of a lot more than you actually do. You twist things that people say to fit the point that you try to make. *Where did I say that the trainers I knew went to Cesars house? Just another thing that you fabricated....
> *
> 
> I'm not going to actually search the thread, but you did post that recently.
> ...


My take on the e-collar?

You know it? Really? Please inform me, I'd love to hear what *I* have to say about the e-collar I have sitting on my counter charging right now 

ETA-

I've never stated I know everything, no one ever trully does about dog training, but there definitely are some methods that even *I* know are seriously outdated.

What worries me about your use of the e-collar is the mentality that's usually coupled with "alpha rolls" is not desirable for an aversive like an e-collar. It'll probably result with a dog being burned and not being properly introduced to the correction.

All I can say is, I would rather take someone's word who's actually DONE work with their dogs than someone who's just regurgitating information from a television show or spoke a few times with an obselete method trainer.

Learning period is about trial and error. How are you supposed to learn if you've never done anything?

Had to add:
If I had to choose between a full time trainer that alpha rolled, and a non-cert'd OB HIT competitor, I'd choose the latter most definitely


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Alpha, Captbob, bearlasmom... We're all keeping this in good fun, right? I don't mind people picking on eachother as long as it's not meant to be hurtful.

Six pages to go Grandpaw RonE.


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

actually not mean to be mean or hurtful here. im hoping that the tongue lashing and bashing will stop., we are supposed to bbe a big happy family here.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I didn't think my last post was that bad was it Curb?

Some of my other ones have been rude, I'll admit it, but I thought my last one was a little more direct and to the point.

I'm not hurt  I've got thick skin


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> But dogs are exponentially greater. Wolves were once on the indangered species list, were they not? How close are dogs being placed on the indangered species list? With our current dog over population problem? I'd say dogs are way more successful than wolves by this point alone.


Wow. Are you really using this as your argument? 

Wolves were endangered because they were killed by humans, not because they lack some sort of survival quality.

I didn't think we would get this elementary into a discussion. This is like talking to a preschooler.



> Thus your road block in understanding my point of view. You blindly accept wolf theories.


I don't blindly accept anything.



> Hmmm, I wonder what a coyote is then? Or a jackle? Or a dingo? I could get into evolution, biology, and genetics, but the last time I tried that I got the _I don't know nutt'n bout dat, but I still tink you're wrong _act. For this I'd recommend you learn this on your own.


And they don't share similar pack qualities?



> Study village dogs, they don't all roam solo, nor do they pack. I'd even recommend visiting a third world country and witness the behaviors yourself. Not much pack hunting going on, I'll assure you of that.


So they aren't solo and they aren't in a pack - what are they then, transient beings?


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

nothing bad meant to you alpha. i actually posted the wrong name sweet cheeks. lmao. we need really thick skin sometimes i think. i was refering to the other nasty one posting and i was actually agreeing with alpha

good bully nice, down, shhhhhhh, be good for 5 minutes okay. this is a family forum.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

opokki said:


> Can you name one Ethologist, Certified Animal Behaviorist, or Veterinary Behaviorist who agrees with alpha rolling a dog?


That depends on the type of alpha roll. As I stated, it is a very mismanaged and misunderstood technique.

Let me ask a couple simple questions...

1. Does alpha rolling put an immediate end to an aggressive action?

I didn't say "does it end aggressive behavior?" - I said "Does it stop an aggressive act?"

2. Does it accomplish its goal in asserting dominance?

Please respond to each question individually, not in one long paragraph.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Bully...

*sigh* How can I put this without the other band members killing me. LOL

In YOUR life with YOUR dogs, from the sounds of it, you don't really need to alpha roll your dogs right? 

I find it pretty hard to believe that your here advocating the use of alpha rolls, when on the other thread you posted a wonderful link to most of the methods I even use personally when dealing with my own dogs.

I guess after re-reading that sheet, I'm a little confused as to how you on one thread, I see a wonderful outlook on dealing with dominance and then on this thread advocating the use of alpha rolling.

Are you speaking more of the bonding excercise, which is where you do have the dog in a submissive position but your not forcefully holding them there?

Just trying to wrap my brain around is all


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> Wow. Are you really using this as your argument?


I used it as one point in an argument, however, I don't believe you actually want to understand. So I left it there. 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> Wolves were endangered because they were killed by humans, not because they lack some sort of survival quality.


Any why weren't dogs killed off? Maybe because they have a behavior to us humans that wolves don't have? Hmmmm?



GoodBullyLLC said:


> I didn't think we would get this elementary into a discussion. This is like talking to a preschooler.


Jinx!



GoodBullyLLC said:


> I don't blindly accept anything.


Have you finished reading the thread Carla left? No, you gave up when you failed to comprehend. 



GoodBullyLLC said:


> And they don't share similar pack qualities?


There are similar qualities, but they are superficial.



GoodBullyLLC said:


> So they aren't solo and they aren't in a pack - what are they then, transient beings?


No, they'll stick around together or apart for as long as resources are available. Only once resources diminish do they move on apart or together.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Bully...
> 
> *sigh* How can I put this without the other band members killing me. LOL
> 
> ...


The dominance program I share with people is written for the general public; people who don't know how to deal with or correct aggressive behavior.

I have no need to alpha roll my dogs, no.

I also never suggest that people alpha roll their dog.

I have, however, alpha rolled dogs and still will. I rehabilitate problem dogs and the technique works when done properly and with absolute calmness. There is nothing aggressive about it (I understand that this is not the case when most people think of alpha rolling because the common misconception is that the technique should be used aggressively, forcefully, and should inject fear and pain into the dog - which is not the correct way to perform the action).

The other part to understand is when to do it. As I have stated, I work with many problem dogs, some with fear aggression, some with dominance aggression, that I never alpha roll. The only time I do it is when I need to put an end to an aggressive action toward me, another human, or another dog (not a growl or bark but when the dog actually makes contact or comes very close). It is a way to solve the particular situation and the fact that it asserts dominance is just a plus.

I want to throw aside wolf theory, wild dog theory, and all that for a minute and get an answer to the question - can it work?

If the answer is yes--I have used it successfully so in my mind the correct answer is yes--then what are good reasons for not doing it?


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

alpha dont both with this guy. you are wasting your breath and your good advice.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Okay, now I'm sorry, but I was trying to somewhat offer a hand in peace,
but did the beginning part of your post just state that I don't know how to deal with aggressive animals because I use those methods now?

Because I don't alpha roll instead, but rather I implement resource control and a slightly different but comparable to NILIF technique with my bitch?

Advice taken bearlas, what's important is the methods I use for my dog don't scar them emotionally/mentally and work fantastically. That's all that matters  For those that sincerely want advice, I'll offer what I know and what has worked for me.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

That was not my implication.

I was simply stating why the dominance program I tell my clients to follow includes avoidance as step 1.

I didn't say you didn't know how to handle aggression, I was simply stating that the general public does not.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC said:


> If the answer is yes--I have used it successfully so in my mind the correct answer is yes--then what are good reasons for not doing it?


When no other preventions are in place, and as a last resort, the risk in your example is worth it. However, reasons not to do it are many. The originators saw it right many years later...people are ignorant and misuse the technique. That's one good reason. If you stay around long enough someone eventually will stroll into our forum and recommend that someone "show their dominance, and roll the dog on it's side" for a common problem like jumping. They see Cesar do it once, and suddenly it's extrapolated that every dog problem is a dominance issue, because that's the lesson learned by the ignorant when watching The Dog Whisperer. You may use it only for safety reasons, but Jo Blo who just watched his first episode of The Dog Whisperer is suddenly an expert. It all points to what eley has been suggesting all along. However, if they had an understanding of the applicabilty of wolf theories, they may not be so quick to accept the wizardry of Cesar.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> When no other preventions are in place, and as a last resort, the risk in your example is worth it. However, reasons not to do it are many. The originators saw it right many years later...people are ignorant and misuse the technique. That's one good reason. If you stay around long enough someone eventually will stroll into our forum and recommend that someone "show their dominance, and roll the dog on it's side" for a common problem like jumping. They see Cesar do it once, and suddenly it's extrapolated that every dog problem is a dominance issue, because that's the lesson learned by the ignorant when watching The Dog Whisperer. You may use it only for safety reasons, but Jo Blo who just watched his first episode of The Dog Whisperer is suddenly an expert. It all points to what eley has been suggesting all along. However, if they had an understanding of the applicabilty of wolf theories, they may not be so quick to accept the wizardry of Cesar.


And THIS is why we do not suggest alpha rolling on this forum. Many of the members of this forum are beginner dog owners, and any beginner dog owner performing such an action could cause themselves or their dogs to be seriously hurt, traumatized, etc.

I am ALL for trying the least aversive methods FIRST, and ESPECIALLY for a first time dog owner.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

Curb and Cheetah - I'm perfectly fine with that and I agree with you 100%.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I'm the same way Cheetah.

I start out with new behaviours with as little correction as possible, this includes verbal. I *try* to SHAPE all behaviours first, shaping behaviours involves ONLY positive reinforcement.

Than, slowly, gradually after exhausting each method, step up my corrections accordingly.

Curb, good post.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

RonE said:


> don't be surprised if this thread turns into 19 pages of back-and-forth


It would be okay to prove me wrong for once.  

I wonder if the forum administrator could set a limit on the number of passages that can be quoted in a single response.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> My take on the e-collar?
> 
> You know it? Really? Please inform me, I'd love to hear what *I* have to say about the e-collar I have sitting on my counter charging right now
> 
> ...



First of all, I suspected that you were not a professional trainer because you disagree with some of the things that long time trainers I have talked to believe in. These are trainers that have trained dogs for the government, as well as private owners. I can also tell that your understanding of the way an E-collar works when it is properly used, doesn't seem to jibe with what I have seen with 2 different instructors using it. It is too long to go into here, so I will just say that, 3 different dogs I have personally seen being trained with an E-collar progressed more rapidly in the training than any other method I have ever seen, and that is why these instructors like to use the E-collar. They call it an electronic clicker... Your statement about "E-collar mentality coupled with alpha rolls" has me totally confused, since I have no idea what you are talking about. 

I am not trying to be an expert in training since I am basically interested in the topic for use with my own dog and the dogs I help at the shelter where I volunteer. It does bother me, however, when I see something demonstrated by an expert in it's use several times( like an E Collar) , and then I read on a forum something that is 180 degrees out of phase with what I actually witnessed, and it is passed off as fact. Same goes for the "abusive" training that Cesar does with the dogs he helps. I am not seeing that either, so either my DVR is not recording these episodes for some reason, or maybe we are living in the Twilight Zone and watching totally different versions of the same TV show...


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## crazydog06 (Jan 22, 2007)

100% behind Cesar and his techniques! Works on my dog! 

But others have their opinion and I respect that. So I won't start any cyber fights.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

Well I for one watch his shows, but I do not hold him high on the dog trainer pedestal. Some of his methods put me in mind of William Koehler.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC, so what you're saying is that Alpha rolls are used as means to end an immediate behaviour, but not as a long term solution?. I have read about a number of trainers that use them sucessfuly, but for what I understand the person rolling the dog has to know EXACTLY what they are doing. It's one of those things that there is way too much that can go wrong and way to little room for error, if I'm understanding correctly.

I guess we're talking about two different worlds here, dog owners and dog pros. But this is part of the point I've been trying to make all along. Whether you like Cesar Millan or not, you have to agree with one thing, there's a number of ignorant, stupid people that will go and immitate whatever they see on tv, just because it's on tv. And while the fallout and consecuences are not in anyway Millan's fault (blaming him for idiots rolling dogs, would be as fair as blaming Trading Spaces for people messing up their homes), I do believe that not enough emphasis is placed in the fact that Millan is a pro and he SHOULD NOT be immitated by John Q Public.

There is one thing about being a pro, and that is you make whatever it is you are a professional at look easy. So easy that in some instances people can't figure out why they called a pro if they could've done ______ in the first place.

So while I agree that leash corrections, pinch and e-collars and other things do have their place and use in the dog world, I believe not enough emphasis is placed on the fact that these things are TOOLS. So we spend more time de-mystifying that alpha rolls, pinch collars and the like are evil like they have been portrayed to be, that we forget to remind people that while they aren't by any means off limits, they do have to be used with a certain care. I'm not saying anyone here advocating one thing or the other has said anyone can go out and roll their dog, I'm saying that if such thing is to be deffended and argued for it should be worded in a way that makes people understand that IF said things are to be done they MUST be done under professional supervision.

The thing about TV, there has to be a "Wow" factor, otherwise, it wouldn't be on TV. I'm no expert, but in my experience dealing with my leash reactive dog, I have yet to see a "light bulb" moment, it has all been little milestones. I guess if you saw my dog a few months ago and you saw him now you would notice a difference, but the keyword there was "months". I have heard many people tell me that my dog's problem can be solved in a couple of hours, maybe a day if that much. Yet when I ask these people "how?", all I hear are catch phrases and refferences to a tv show. Ironically in asking three professionals, from what I would see as oposing points of view, I get one common denominator "there's no quick and easy REAL solution".

So the two things (one good one bad) that people take from "the Dog Whisperer" are, the good :"your dog's problems do have a solution", the bad: "this solution takes a couple of hours at the most". The people that believe that, and go around giving advice around those huge missconceptions are the ones doing a disservice to dog in general, and giving Millan a bad name.


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

eley said:


> GoodBullyLLC, so what you're saying is that Alpha rolls are used as means to end an immediate behaviour, but not as a long term solution?. I have read about a number of trainers that use them sucessfuly, but for what I understand the person rolling the dog has to know EXACTLY what they are doing. It's one of those things that there is way too much that can go wrong and way to little room for error, if I'm understanding correctly.


It isn't that sensitive, but yeah, if you don't know what you are doing and haven't properly assessed the dog it can be dangerous.



> I guess we're talking about two different worlds here, dog owners and dog pros. But this is part of the point I've been trying to make all along. Whether you like Cesar Millan or not, you have to agree with one thing, there's a number of ignorant, stupid people that will go and immitate whatever they see on tv, just because it's on tv. And while the fallout and consecuences are not in anyway Millan's fault (blaming him for idiots rolling dogs, would be as fair as blaming Trading Spaces for people messing up their homes), I do believe that not enough emphasis is placed in the fact that Millan is a pro and he SHOULD NOT be immitated by John Q Public.


Yes, you are correct. This is especially true since Millan himself has a disclaimer on his website and on the television program that John Q. Public should hire a professional trainer and not try the techniques on their own.



> There is one thing about being a pro, and that is you make whatever it is you are a professional at look easy. So easy that in some instances people can't figure out why they called a pro if they could've done ______ in the first place.
> 
> So while I agree that leash corrections, pinch and e-collars and other things do have their place and use in the dog world, I believe not enough emphasis is placed on the fact that these things are TOOLS. So we spend more time de-mystifying that alpha rolls, pinch collars and the like are evil like they have been portrayed to be, that we forget to remind people that while they aren't by any means off limits, they do have to be used with a certain care. I'm not saying anyone here advocating one thing or the other has said anyone can go out and roll their dog, I'm saying that if such thing is to be deffended and argued for it should be worded in a way that makes people understand that IF said things are to be done they MUST be done under professional supervision.


This is great advice. And I for one never advocate that anyone roll their dog over. As I stated, I do it only in the most extreme cases and mostly as a means to end and calm the situation rather than asserting dominance.



> The thing about TV, there has to be a "Wow" factor, otherwise, it wouldn't be on TV. I'm no expert, but in my experience dealing with my leash reactive dog, I have yet to see a "light bulb" moment, it has all been little milestones. I guess if you saw my dog a few months ago and you saw him now you would notice a difference, but the keyword there was "months". I have heard many people tell me that my dog's problem can be solved in a couple of hours, maybe a day if that much. Yet when I ask these people "how?", all I hear are catch phrases and refferences to a tv show. Ironically in asking three professionals, from what I would see as oposing points of view, I get one common denominator "there's no quick and easy REAL solution".


Even Millan's techniques don't work in hours. You see a temporary light bulb change but even he will tell you that if the owners don't keep working with the dog and following the right leadership plan, the dog will go back to behaving badly.

I've never heard him try to convince people that the dog is fixed when he leaves.



> So the two things (one good one bad) that people take from "the Dog Whisperer" are, the good :"your dog's problems do have a solution", the bad: "this solution takes a couple of hours at the most". The people that believe that, and go around giving advice around those huge missconceptions are the ones doing a disservice to dog in general, and giving Millan a bad name.


People think this because they don't listen to him. They watch what he does but they don't listen to his statements about the dogs progress, probably because they are still mystified. As I said, I've never heard him try to convince people that he "fixed" the dog during his one visit.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

GoodBullyLLC, I think we see things pretty much from the same perspective.

I do believe that during his wrap-up segment at the end of the show Cesar could say out loud to ask for professional help, maybe that would sink in better in the heads of the culties. Honestly, when was the last time anyone gave any importance to a written disclaimer?. Ironically I think that even that wouldn't stop a number of idiots from going and testing o ntheir dogs whatever they just saw on TV, the sad part is, that it's the ones that didn't really understand the ones that go and immitate, and nothing CM does will stop that.

The thing about even Cesar's work not working in hours, smart people get it, it's once again the idiots that don't, they don't hear the part where he says that the owners have to keep up either. In their mind, it's like magic.

I've heard a number of missconceptions stemming from Cesar's statements, some would make anyone with a dash of intelligence cringe (if you want to hear some of them PM me). 

Stupidity and lack of common sense is something that we'll NEVER get rid of.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

eley said:


> GoodBullyLLC, I think we see things pretty much from the same perspective.
> 
> I do believe that during his wrap-up segment at the end of the show Cesar could say out loud to ask for professional help, maybe that would sink in better in the heads of the culties. Honestly, when was the last time anyone gave any importance to a written disclaimer?. Ironically I think that even that wouldn't stop a number of idiots from going and testing o ntheir dogs whatever they just saw on TV, the sad part is, that it's the ones that didn't really understand the ones that go and immitate, and nothing CM does will stop that.
> 
> ...


If all programs had to be directed at the lowest common denominator IQ, we would all be watching Barney reruns. You can't dumb down good information figuring that some peole would try it despite disclaimers. Dumb people will do dumb things, despite any warning that is given to them. That is how Darwins theory works...


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

Captbob said:


> If all programs had to be directed at the lowest common denominator IQ, we would all be watching Barney reruns. You can't dumb down good information figuring that some peole would try it despite disclaimers. Dumb people will do dumb things, despite any warning that is given to them. That is how Darwins theory works...


I agree with that, the only thing that gets on my nerves, is that in this particular case, it's dogs who end up paying the price.

I could not care less if someone painted their house lime green with bright orange trim because they saw that on Trading spaces. Or if someone goes and breaks a leg trying to do something they saw on fear factor. But I do have a problem with someone going out and poking a dog in the neck, rolling it or something along those lines because they saw it on the Dog Whisperer.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

No, Captbob, the reason you suspected I wasnt' a "professional" trainer was because I don't agree with a lot of the methods you speak of here.

It's okay to disagree, but let's be honest, that's why your saying the things you are. Everything was okay between us until I disagreed with a few of the comments you made about APBT's and methods on this thread. I don't know if you think your fooling other members, but your definitely not fooling me.

Secondly, and lastly (whewf! LOL) just because a trainer has so many years under their belt DOES NOT, BY ANY MEANS, mean that they know what they're doing.

I recently went a farm looking to buy a foal and found a lady there who had been teaching lessons for over 20 years and almost had a heart attack at what I saw.

*Anyone in dogs knows that years doesn't neccessarily mean GOOD experience.*

Also, most people in dogs also know that police dogs now, for the most part, are trained using a lot of positive reinforcement.

I go to school with a lady who gives classes and has worked with Fred Hassen, *THE* e-collar trainer thank you.

It's is EXTREMELY naive to believe that the e-collar is meant for just any dog, now the hardcore collar pushers won't tell you that, but many of the people who use collars for finishing work in competition will.

Of course the people who make money off others using their methods are NOT going to tell you to DON'T use my method! It's ridiculous.

All I'm saying is, in complete sincerity, is it appears from your posts about the e-collar that you've been brainwashed. I have an e-collar, I use it occasionally, and I've read, and listened to seminars from *THE BEST* in e-collar training but don't *EAT UP* everything someone tells you with X amount of years experience.

Sure, the ladies dog's at our school work wonderfully, do everything perfectly. Roxy looks better though, anyone who's compared the two will say the same. If you want a robot, use the e-collar as your MAIN training tool, because it's what you'll get. Now I stress main, because this is how many collar pushers use it. The collar for EVERY little correction. Verbal corrections, leash corrections, "guidance" it all.

This is how the collar pushers take away the human emotions involved with verbal and physical corrections, to "detach" themselves from the correction, in the hope of the dog not connecting to the correction to the human.

Sometimes dogs knowing that it was us that gave them the correction is important. 

Just because I'm not a collar pusher, doesn't mean that I haven't spoken with, listened to, and read from the best about it. Once again, don't ASSUME that you know anything about what I do and know about dogs.

Good post above eley


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Wow, away for a couple of days sick and this is what I come back to! 

Good Bully, I have trained using BOTH schools. I learned the Koehler method when I was 15, I'm now 40. I quit useing the old methods after watching them fail too many dogs and started searching for better ways that wouldn't harm or intimidate and would work with shy/fearful dogs as well as confident/dominant dogs. 



luv4gsds said:


> Well I for one watch his shows, but I do not hold him high on the dog trainer pedestal. Some of his methods put me in mind of William Koehler.


Yes, he uses many of Koehlers methods and those of New Skete. I guess that's why I have a problem. I've seen him dominate dogs that have medical conditions and nuerologic disorders that cause the problems he's trying to 'reform' . It's one of the reasons I tell people having problems, especially if they are sudden, to have their dogs checked out for tick disease, Thyroid and nuerological conditions before consulting a behaviorist or qualified trainer. 


The fact is, that most problems, other than those caused by medical conditions, are the result of the owners not being consistant or lack of training and/or socialization from a young age. Many people take their dogs to obedience training, but few teach their dogs manners thinking the obedience will be enough. Of course there are always those who teach their dogs nothing and let them run the humans (most of which are the little guys). It takes alot to change the attitudes of these people. I guess if they are watching Cesar and realizing they need to take control of their dogs, he does good. It's a start even if they use methods I don't agree with.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Alpha said:


> No, Captbob, the reason you suspected I wasnt' a "professional" trainer was because I don't agree with a lot of the methods you speak of here.
> 
> It's okay to disagree, but let's be honest, that's why your saying the things you are. Everything was okay between us until I disagreed with a few of the comments you made about APBT's and methods on this thread. I don't know if you think your fooling other members, but your definitely not fooling me.
> 
> ...


As I said before, the things that you say fly in the face of much of the information that I have read in books on dog training and talking to dog trainers. I can see that you are locked into what you feel is correct, and no amount of reasoning with you will change that, so I am not even going to try. I do think it would be a good idea, however, to lay off calling people that don't agree with you ignorant, or implying that you are right and they are wrong. To someone that is a pro trainer, you just make yourself look silly in my opinion.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I am most definitely not LOCKED into what I *THINK* is correct.

I work with my dogs probably more than you do so with your own. (If you haven't noticed I've refrained from being right out rude, but obviously you haven't, or you want to continue being rude yourself)

The methods I have used with my dogs that have worked and haven't worked is what I speak about on this forum. I most definintely don't preach ANYTHING that ANY trainer out there says is right, only what, in my experience WORKS.

IMO, it's pretty ridiculous and silly to preach about methods that you haven't applied yourself, just methods that you've read about, spoken about with someone or seen on TV. Don't get me wrong, there's a tonne of knowledge out there that can be learned by those actions but IMO, true knowledge comes from doing something yourself. Not by hearing or seeing it as a stander-by.

What exactly do I state that "*flies in the face of much of the information that you have read in books on dog training and from talking to dog trainers?"*

Alpha rolls? That the e-collar isn't for every dog out there? What exactly


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

Captbob said:


> To someone that is a pro trainer, you just make yourself look silly in my opinion.


first of all, alpha has never refered to anyone as ignorant, you have though numerous times. Pro trainer, and salesman for a dog training technique or manual are two completely different things. If anyone looks silly, you do, trying to pass yourself off as one. 

Lay off on alpha, she actually does know what she is talking about. 

Silly, is a person who promotes pinch or prong collars. Youclaim to train problem bully breeds and you use e collars and pinch collars? Like i said before, a dog in your hands is a dog waiting to go off like a case of very old wet TNT or a case of nitro sitting on the very edge of a cliff and a earthquake beginning. 

prong collars should be used on the owner of the dog BEFORE it is used on the dog. They are used by those who are training bully breeds to be nasty. Give the true facts. thank you


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Very well said!


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Very well said!


thank you carla


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Nope, bearla, Carla, we're wrong  Didn't ya know that the ONLY way to train a dog is to apha roll them, use an e-collar as a if it were the only training tool out there and perhaps finish it all off with some prong collars, obselete methods or neck biting. 

I don't know where to start! I mean I already have an e-collar but am I to just shock her all the time? When she does bad things? I don't know! Let's just turn it up and find out!

How about some alpha rolling! Party at my house!  He he!

And Carla! Posting all that riff raff about "positve training", pfftt! Get real! Ya gotta get down and dirty and physical if you want to get anywhere!


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

bearlasmom said:


> first of all, alpha has never refered to anyone as ignorant, you have though numerous times. Pro trainer, and salesman for a dog training technique or manual are two completely different things. If anyone looks silly, you do, trying to pass yourself off as one.
> 
> Lay off on alpha, she actually does know what she is talking about.
> 
> ...


You are so misinformed it isn't funny.


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

Alpha said:


> Nope, bearla, Carla, we're wrong  Didn't ya know that the ONLY way to train a dog is to apha roll them, use an e-collar as a if it were the only training tool out there and perhaps finish it all off with some prong collars, obselete methods or neck biting.
> 
> I don't know where to start! I mean I already have an e-collar but am I to just shock her all the time? When she does bad things? I don't know! Let's just turn it up and find out!
> 
> ...



you bring the e and prong collars, well through bully down and try them on. maybe do some neck biting, alpha rolling and i agree, we have to get down and dirty, lmao



GoodBullyLLC said:


> You are so misinformed it isn't funny.


the only misinformed one around here bucko is you. i bring people like you into courts to have thown behind bars all the time. in case you havent heard, ANIMAL CRUELTY IS A NO NO.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

Well I really do not want to get in-between this so called mouth fight. I just wanted to say that the prong collar and the e-collar have their place in dog training. It is the people that do not know how to use these training tools in the right manner that gives these training tools a bad rap. Yes you can use positive reinforcement to train a dog very well, but it doesn't work for all dogs. Now do not get me wrong I use positive reinforcement in my training. This type of training sets my foundation. I always remember the three A's attention, attitude and accuracy in my training. You have to look at yourself before training your dog. Your understanding, timing, temperament, physical capabilities and the ability to read your dog. You should never give a correction for a mistake that your dog may make while training. A correction should only be used for disobedience. When correcting a mistake and not disobedience this will quickly destroy a dog's confidence. Well I will give it a rest now.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

bearlasmom said:


> first of all, alpha has never refered to anyone as ignorant, you have though numerous times.
> 
> Oh really,  read the first few lines of one of his posts on this link.......


http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/3956-pit-bulls-hopefully-doesnt-18.html#post49536



bearlasmom said:


> Pro trainer, and salesman for a dog training technique or manual are two
> 
> completely different things. If anyone looks silly, you do, trying to pass yourself off as one.


"Pass my self off as one" .... what......????You will have to explain that statement to me, I can't figure out what you mean... 



bearlasmom said:


> Lay off on alpha, she actually does know what she is talking about.


Prove it.....


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## GoodBullyLLC (Apr 1, 2007)

bearlasmom said:


> you bring the e and prong collars, well through bully down and try them on. maybe do some neck biting, alpha rolling and i agree, we have to get down and dirty, lmao
> 
> 
> the only misinformed one around here bucko is you. i bring people like you into courts to have thown behind bars all the time. in case you havent heard, ANIMAL CRUELTY IS A NO NO.


Your post lacks credibility, common sense, and logic. You, sir, are wasting everyone's time here.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm fine with people calling me names, or searching to humilate me. I'm quite confident that I can laugh those people off. Call that what you want, but I've seen and heard it all before. However, as a moderator I feel obligated to discourage name calling and rudness. We have many examples in this thread of people forgetting the objective of a forum...to hopefully teach, to hopefully learn, and to keep an open mind. It's apparent to me that some of you are incapable of focusing on the objective. So before the mods start recommending people to be removed from our forum, this thread ends here, and I ask you all to reevaluate why you're here. If you're not here to educate or learn, I'd like you to leave our forum. There are plenty of other forums where you can pick on people. I know I've been very lenient with the forum rules, but if I don't see examples of tact from this point forward in other threads, I'll kindly remove you from our forum. I'm not trying to impose any "moderator" power, but we've all read the forum rules, right? So let's follow them. 

Sorry Grandpaw RonE! We almost made it.


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