# So, You Wanna Do Agility?



## MissMutt

Dog agility is one of the largest growing and most well-known dog performance activities. Most people have seen, or at least heard of, well-trained dogs navigating courses filled with obstacles like jumps to hop over, tunnels to crawl through, and planks to climb up. What people don't seem to know is how much time, dedication, and (sometimes frustrating) training that takes to get to that point. I've written up a step-by-step guide for getting involved in dog agility.. I hope it can help someone. (Other agility folks, please feel free to contribute!)

*1. TEACH YOUR DOG THE BASICS.*

An agility dog who goes to agility class after having taken some very basic obedience and/or puppy socialization classes is at a great advantage - in fact, some clubs even stipulate that you MUST have taken such a class (or have the equivalent amount of skills) before you can enroll in their agility classes.

At minimum, your dog should know how to sit, stay, and come when called. Of course, a young dog in his or her first agility class might be a little bit distracted, but you should have reasonable control over your dog in daily settings and interactions before enrolling in agility classes.

Your dog does not have to be friendly with other dogs to do agility, but they should not be attempting to attack, lunging or showing excessive fear in a group setting. If they are, take a step back and solve those problems before adding agility to your dogs' schedule of activities to keep it safe and enjoyable for all involved.

If you are unsure about whether or not agility it suitable for your dog, please contact the club you're interested to ask if your dog would be a good candidate for this type of training.

*2. FIND A CLUB.*

This can be one of the most difficult parts of agility. Classes are often not offered year-round due to weather constraints depending on where you are located. Furthermore, most clubs do not start beginner agility classes all of the time. Be prepared to wait up to a couple of months before finding a place that can accommodate you. Sometimes you'll get lucky and might find someone right away, but, if not, be patient - it's WORTH IT to wait for a quality agility instructor!

When searching for a club, look at your trainers' accomplishments. How long have they been doing agility? What sort of training methods do they use? What kinds of dogs have they worked with? Any or all of these questions might be relevant to you when making your decision.

Also, don't forget the difference between Agility for Fun and Competition Agility classes. Agility for Fun is non-competitive - that is, it is a class that will not teach you the skills necessary to compete. If you decide that this is the best option for you for whatever reason, it might be a good idea to observe a class or two before committing to it, to make sure that the instructor is running the For Fun class in a safe and responsible manner. Like a competition instructor, a For Fun instructor should be qualified and competent.

*3. WHERE ARE THE OBSTACLES?*

So, you've made your choice and have decided that you want to take competition agility classes. You've brought lots of little stinky treats just like the instructor told you, have a well-trained dog, and have just arrived for your first class.

..But where are the obstacles? Isn't my dog going to run through a course?

The answer is.. yes and no. YES, your dog will eventually be able to run a course, with some time and practice. But, NO, it does not happen right away! You might not even see a single piece of equipment out on the floor during your first agility lesson. Or, you might just see one or two obstacles. This is to your benefit. An agility instructor that does not introduce all of the obstacles right away and instead works on "groundwork" with you and your dog ensures that you will build a solid relationship with your dog and THEN train the obstacles. 

*4. ENSURING A SOLID FOUNDATION*

One of the things I can't stress enough is that if your teacher tells you to practice at home.. please, practice at home! It may be homework as simple as sending your dog around a cone (or toilet plunger, if that's all you have!), or teaching them to touch a yogurt lid with their nose. You might not see how it's relevant to agility right away, but it certainly is! Students who learn handling techniques at class and then go home to practice them are going to be at an advantage over ones who don't. It also shows the instructor that you're serious about agility and want to do it correctly.

*5. GETTING MORE ADVANCED*

Once your dog has learned the obstacles and you feel comfortable handling him or her through short sequences, talk to your instructor about what other ways you can practice. They might suggest that you search for agility match shows or run-throughs in your area. Even if you and your instructor decide that you're not ready to run a course on your own, bringing your dog to matches or practice groups to simply play with them or let them observe the other dogs can be beneficial.

Your instructor might also recommend going to seminars or taking private lessons. The reality is that not everything can be covered in class.. so, you must take it upon yourself to find opportunities for you and your dog to learn more. It generally comes with the added bonus of exposing your dog to new environments (something that a lot of dogs struggle with when they first start to trial).

Join e-mail lists for Agility Events in your area. They can usually be found by searching on groups.yahoo.com or asking someone involved in agility in your area.

*6. THINKING ABOUT TRIALING*

If you've put a lot of time and effort into training your budding agility star, your mind will wander to the idea of competing. It is good to familiarize yourself with the rules and specifics of each organization before deciding when and where you're going to compete.

For your convenience, here is a list of some of the most common agility organizations:

American Kennel Club (AKC)
United Kennel Club (UKC)
Canine Performance Events (CPE)
United States Dog Agility Association (USDAA)
North American Dog Agility Council (NADAC)
Dogs on Course in North America (DOCNA)
Agility Association of Canada (AAC)
Australian Shepherd Club of America (ASCA)

There are others, but you can start here. Each organization offers different types of events. For example, AKC agility trials only have a few different classes that you can run your dog in (currently Standard Agility, Jumpers with Weaves, and Fifteen and Send Time (FAST), a games class). CPE trials, on the other hand, allow your dog to run in up to 5 or 6 different classes per day, with each class having its own set of rules. In addition to these differences, not all organizations are common in all areas. In my area, NYC, we have lots of AKC, some CPE, NADAC, and USDAA, but little of the others. Other areas have virtually no AKC and lots of other organizations.

If you can, attend some trials without your dog to learn about how they work.

*7. PUTTIN' THE CHECK IN THE MAIL*

After you've been doing agility for a substantial amount of time, have trained your dog in a variety of settings, and have spoken with your instructor, you might decide that you're ready to trial.

Your dog will need to be registered with the organization hosting whichever trial you wish to enter. The above webpages have information on how to do this. This often needs to be done several weeks before you can enter the trial.

Once your dog is registered, search on the events calendar of the organization of your choice for events in your area. 

The events page should either a) contain the trial premium, which is a list of all information relevant to the trial as well as an entry form, or b) contain a link for a trial secretary service where you will find entry information. This part can get kind of tricky - one of the most common things I hear from beginners is that they have no idea how to enter a trial.  It's hard to explain over the internet because all clubs handle this differently, so it's best to ask someone that you know for help.

Be mindful of where the event is held - if you've trained agility indoors for the most part, going to an outdoor trial for your first time out might not be such a good idea. Likewise, if you've trained on grass primarily, think carefully before you enter a trial being held in a dirt horse arena. It is best to learn in advance whether or not the show rings at the trial are fenced. Some clubs use only a thin rope as ring gates, others will use low 2' orange fencing to provide a barrier. E-mail the trial officials if you are not sure.. they are there to help you!

You will need to send your completed entry form along with your entry free for the trial. Typically, you will received e-mail or snail mail confirmation when your entry is received.

Keep in mind that some trials fill up very quickly. Many trials have an "Opening Date" - that is, the first day that entries will be received for that trial (and entries send before that day are discarded). If you anticipate a trial filling up quickly, it might be worth your while to overnight your entry so that it arrives on the opening date. (Ask others you know if they want to pool their entries with yours to cut down the cost of the expedited mailing service).

*8. DAY OF SHOW*

It's your first trial! You're excited and nervous and happy and worried all in to one.

The best advice I can give - partner up with someone! If the trial is held outdoors and you will be putting up a canopy or tent, see if you can set up with or next to someone that you know. It makes things a lot less stressful if you have someone, preferably someone more experienced, there with you.

You should also bring a crate or prepare to keep your dog in the car (weather permitting) or with someone you know for some parts of the trial. For example, when you are walking the course, you will not be able to hold your dog. Bringing along a crate, a blanket and even a chew stick might help your dog relax at a trial and gave him a) a place to stay when you can't hold his leash and b) give him a place to have some down time between runs.

ALSO, take note of whether or not the trial site has food and water available. If it doesn't, you'll need to bring your own!

When it's time to go into the ring, try to treat your run as you would any other. Don't let your dog know how hard your heart is pounding or how nervous you are. Simply warm your dog up at the practice obstacles provided, work on some attention and fun tricks, and get ready to run. Once you enter more trials, you'll begin to discover what the best warm-up routine for you is.

And last, but not least.. have fun. That is why we do agility with our dogs.. to give them confidence, to provide them with an outlet for their energy, to empty your wallet (kidding), to BUILD a relationship with your canine partner. Even if your dog knocks over all of the jumps or runs around the ring the first time that you trial, just smile and remember why we do this in the first place.  Winning is great, but having fun is even better.


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## RaeganW

MissMutt said:


> If you can, attend some trials without your dog to learn about how they work.


Also, attend some trials without your dog and volunteer. Clubs can always use more help and some times there are incentives for volunteering. I have seen everything from a free lunch, to a worker raffle, to reduced entry fees. Some of the jobs can be labor intensive (course building for example, where you construct the course according to the judge's map. Some of the equipment is heavy and bulky) but others are mostly sit-down jobs. 

Volunteering is a great way to get familiar with how an agility trial is run as well as build connections with club members. Many times help is hard to find or schedule because usually everyone there has a dog or two to run. If you aren't running a dog yet and are an eager volunteer, you will quickly become a favorite person at the club.


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## winniec777

Thanks for posting this, MM. Very helpful. Don't think trialing is my cup of tea or Poca's (Look! There's a bird!! WEEE!!) but I'm sure it would be helpful to introduce her to some of the basics. Rally seems too dull and frankly, Poca is just not that interested in maintaining a focus on me. But something active and exciting like this might work....


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## MissMutt

Wish this could be stickied! Bump.


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## Shaina

Nice, MissMutt  Agree on the sticky recommendation -- covers a lot of the repetitive questions.

Might want to add ASCA to your list of venues. http://www.asca.org/programs/agility They are pretty similar to CPE from what I've seen, though I've never competed with them.


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## MissMutt

Didn't know they had agility! Sure thing.


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## Shaina

Yup they do all-breed agility, it's not just for Aussies. Very regional though, I believe.


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## Alerondogs

Good basic info! 

The only thing I don't really agree with is the obedience class thing. IME going to obedience class doesn't generally tend to help a dog be more successful in agility and sometimes can actually be detrimental to agility training. You do need a dog who wants to work with you and he should want to work with you more than he wants to run away. And a recall is never a bad idea but the formal type recall taught in obedience classes won't be of much use in agility. You don't _need_ a stay, especially not at first. A lot of people like them for the start line but honestly, I think people tend to get a bit hung up on the whole start line stay issue and that creates stress in some dogs. Many beginner dogs run much better if you run with them. So a solid but highly motivated stay (dog will hold position but be ready to spring into action when cued) will be probably be useful down the road but definitely not a necessity when starting out. 

How helpful or not an obedience class would be will depend a lot on the class too. If you go to a very progressive, progress at your own rate class that focuses on building a relationship and making training fun, then that could be pretty useful. If you go to a more traditional style class which focuses on teaching more formal exercises and uses a lot of correction, that could do way more harm than good. In my area, the majority of classes, even the ones that use positive methods are just not going to offer much in the way of a foundation for agility training. 

Really, the most important things to have starting out in agility would be a motivated, eager, happy, fit dog who wants to do stuff with you, thinks training is fun, knows a lot of tricks, has learned to be confident on all sorts of objects and interactive with new objects.


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## MissMutt

At my club, there is a requirement that you complete the first two pet classes, entitled "Beginner 1" and "Beginner 2," before signing up for Comp Agility. The two classes teach your basic sit/down/stay/come and CGC requirements, all in a setting of 8+ dogs, so that was sort of my inspiration for including that in the post. For a person who has NEVER trained a dog before (which therefore implies that their dog is a dog that has never been in a class setting before), I really see the value in this. The problem IMO is that the average person doesn't know how to teach tricks, doesn't know how to introduce new obstacles to the dog and jumps in to agility head first, with a dog who isn't ready for agility nor has any impulse control in a class setting. So, I kind of see it as a way to familiarize the dog with learning and training in a big group before you add the giant variable of agility equipment.

I definitely see your point about formal obedience, though I'd contend that when trained correctly and fairly it should not interfere (I know of only one dog who has a real problem doing both). But a class of basic skills? I think it's a good thing for most people to do before going in to agility classes.


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## Poly

Alerondogs said:


> ....The only thing I don't really agree with is the obedience class thing. IME going to obedience class doesn't generally tend to help a dog be more successful in agility and sometimes can actually be detrimental to agility training


You might want to ask those who have put VCD titles on their dogs about that. Please don't make generalizations like this - it doesn't help. 

Many, many dogs compete in both agility and obedience. A few get to quite high levels (MACH and OTCH). Obviously, they were in training for both at the same time - nothing "detrimental" about it. 

ANY activities that you do together with your dog helps every other activity that you do. Why? Because you establish a relationship and an ability to communicate with each other. 




Alerondogs said:


> .... ....a very progressive, progress at your own rate class that focuses on building a relationship and making training fun ...could be pretty useful. [But] a more traditional style class which focuses on teaching more formal exercises and uses a lot of correction ... could do way more harm than good.


I'm sure you are trying to make some sort of point here, but for the life of me I can't figure out what it could be.

If what you are saying is that bad training is a bad thing... well.. that is pretty obvious. 




Alerondogs said:


> ....Really, the most important things to have starting out in agility would be a motivated, eager, happy, fit dog who wants to do stuff with you, thinks training is fun, knows a lot of tricks, has learned to be confident on all sorts of objects and interactive with new objects.


Actually, those are important factors for ANY type of training.


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## Alerondogs

MissMutt said:


> The problem IMO is that the average person doesn't know how to teach tricks, doesn't know how to introduce new obstacles to the dog and jumps in to agility head first, with a dog who isn't ready for agility nor has any impulse control in a class setting. So, I kind of see it as a way to familiarize the dog with learning and training in a big group before you add the giant variable of agility equipment.
> 
> I definitely see your point about formal obedience, though I'd contend that when trained correctly and fairly it should not interfere (I know of only one dog who has a real problem doing both). But a class of basic skills? I think it's a good thing for most people to do before going in to agility classes.


 It depends on the class. To be honest, I have a real issue with how many agility classes in my area are run. For example, one training club requires dogs complete at least up to a CGC level of obedience classes before signing up for the beginner agility class. nothing about those classes at this club prepare the dogs or owners for agility class. There is a huge issue with the dogs (who have CGCs) running off, interfering with other dogs, etc. The dogs are also tested prior to attending class but nothing about the testing really shows how the dog will act in the agility class either. The agility class is set up as an 8 week course where all obstacles are introduced and the dog is to be doing everything by the end of the 8 weeks (with the exception of weaves, which they are only doing channels). So IMO introduction to the equipment is super rushed and important, foundation behaviors (like contact behaviors for example) are totally glossed over. Of course, this is what many people want when they go to class - get their dog on the equipment ASAP. But time and again I see the issues these dogs have - fear or lack of confidence on equipment, running off instead of running with their owners, lack of speed, etc. Those issues are not due to too little obedience training prior to agility, they are due to poor class planning.

OTOH, the class I'm taking Savvy to is perfectly appropriate for dogs with no prior class experience. It is a foundation oriented, on-going, progress at your own rate class. We work on some equipment, handling on the flat and teaching behaviors away from the equipment like stays, recalls and 2o2o. There is absolutely no hurry at all to get the dogs to do the equipment, the focus is entirely on confidence on equipment and building speed and enthusiasm right from the start. To me, that is the right way to run a beginner level class. I think most dogs are in it for a year or so before moving to the next level. 



Poly said:


> You might want to ask those who have put VCD titles on their dogs about that. Please don't make generalizations like this - it doesn't help.


 I didn't make a generalization. I said_ in my experience_ obedience classes generally don't tend to help dogs be more successful in agility. Also that _ sometimes_ obedience classes can be detrimental to future agility dogs. 

My dogs are trained in both too but I don't train obedience to inhibit my dogs. The more traditional approach to obedience training develops a strong leash dependency for the dog to "obey" and can inhibit the dog's enthusiasm, confidence and speed when it comes time to start agility. And I'm not talking about bad training, many very successful obedience trainers still use methods that would not work well with creating a driven, fast, confident agility dog. Some of the dogs I've known who have had the hardest time really enjoying agility were very successful obedience dogs (OTCHs, UDXs). That isn't a generalization, that's just my experience.


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## MissMutt

I just think that a club that gets to know a dog in simple beginner classes over the course of 16 weeks stands a much better chance of having a non-aggressive, under-control group of dogs when it comes time for foundation agility. If dogs demonstrate that they are trained and under control, they can skip this requirement at my club (like experienced performance people who have trained dogs before), but the majority go through the beginner classes before taking agility. 

If the beginner obedience classes are demotivating and harsh, well, that's not going to be good for the dog at all, let alone the dog's agility career. Sounds like there is more of a problem in your area with the agility classes themselves than any of the dogs' prior training or lack thereof.

I also look at it this way: a lot of people say they want to do agility without having any idea what kind of commitment it is. Beginner class requirements weed out the less-serious people that don't know what they're getting in to when they say they want to do agility. It makes the agility classes more enjoyable for everyone. Of course it's not foolproof and of course the CGC doesn't mean that a dog is under control, since the testing situations are so specific, but at least it's _something_.


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## Poly

Alerondogs said:


> I didn't make a generalization. I said_ in my experience_ obedience classes generally don't tend to help dogs be more successful in agility. Also that _ sometimes_ obedience classes can be detrimental to future agility dogs.


 Yeah - i saw the IME. I was trying to be nice about it. 

So let me talk about my experiences. We have had - and have right now - a lot of dogs at our school that *show* in both agility and obedience - so they are well past the training stages in both. In fact, *most* of the dogs that are training with us for _any_ one activity you could mention are also training in at least one other - not necessarily at our school, but training somewhere. 

So I haven't seen anything like what you describe. 

I have heard people say,"Oh, my dog can't do obedience (or agility or whatever)." What they seem to be saying is that they don't have the time or the resources or the physical capacity or simply the inclination to do the different kinds of training that are required. There's nothing wrong with that - we all have limitations of one sort or another. 

I think your statements - about one type of training being detrimental to the other - fall into the same category.



Alerondogs said:


> The more traditional approach to obedience training develops a strong leash dependency for the dog to "obey" and can inhibit the dog's enthusiasm, confidence and speed when it comes time to start agility. And I'm not talking about bad training, many very successful obedience trainers still use methods that would not work well with creating a driven, fast, confident agility dog.


You really are making my head hurt with these off-the-wall statements. I'm sure that I have no idea what you mean by "leash dependency", and I don't think you could give a good explanation either. 

When training for obedience, you have to train with the off-leash exercises in mind _from the very beginnning_. If you don't, how will you ever be able to do them? They don't just happen, you know. There are different approaches, but they all require you to move to off-leash work fairly quickly. 

And really. Do you honestly think that dogs can compete sucessfully in obedience without a *LOT* of drive and confidence? 

Is it possible that you have never seen an obedience trial? Because if you had, there is no way you could come up with the idea that the dogs don't show a _great deal_ of drive and confidence.


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## MissMutt

Amen to that - top obedience dogs show more drive and, frankly, controlled drive than a lot of agility dogs that I know. If obedience training is squishing a dog's drive, then it's being done the wrong way.

Whereabouts in NJ are you, Poly, if you don't mind my asking?


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## Alerondogs

Poly said:


> Yeah - i saw the IME. I was trying to be nice about it.
> 
> So let me talk about my experiences. We have had - and have right now - a lot of dogs at our school that *show* in both agility and obedience - so they are well past the training stages in both. In fact, *most* of the dogs that are training with us for _any_ one activity you could mention are also training in at least one other - not necessarily at our school, but training somewhere.


 That's great. There's lots of dogs here who do both as well. Some do well, some not so much. My own dogs are trained for agility, obedience and dabble in Flyball and lure coursing. They also show in conformation 



Poly said:


> So I haven't seen anything like what you describe.


 That's great! You must live around extremely progressive trainers. 



Poly said:


> You really are making my head hurt with these off-the-wall statements. I'm sure that I have no idea what you mean by "leash dependency", and I don't think you could give a good explanation either.
> 
> When training for obedience, you have to train with the off-leash exercises in mind _from the very beginnning_. If you don't, how will you ever be able to do them? They don't just happen, you know. There are different approaches, but they all require you to move to off-leash work fairly quickly.


 If leash dependency wasn't ever an issue when training for obedience trials, why does a major supplier of obedience products sell these? FWIW they are used to trick your dog into thinking they are still on lead and therefore can still be corrected.











Poly said:


> And really. Do you honestly think that dogs can compete sucessfully in obedience without a *LOT* of drive and confidence?


 They can compete successfully in obedience by being complacent and precise, which are not terribly useful traits for an agility dog. 



Poly said:


> Is it possible that you have never seen an obedience trial? Because if you had, there is no way you could come up with the idea that the dogs don't show a _great deal_ of drive and confidence.


 I've seen plenty of obedience trials. I admittedly am not an obedience oriented person but my dogs do well enough on the occasions that I trial them. My dogs are pretty up and happy workers but unfortunately, I see many dogs at trials who are not. Some dogs are actually rather painful to watch because it is so obvious they aren't having a good time. I have seen lots of dogs in Novice who do ok until the leash is gone - seems to be a common issue. Any trial I have ever seen, I've noticed dogs who appeared stressy or while they work well, you can tell they are very...careful. Very precise and very careful. Outside of trials, I have seen people do some pretty bad things to their dogs in the name of training for high levels of obedience competition and it was obvious the dog was not having a good time at all. 

Obviously, you think training for formal obedience is done using the same motivation methods, drive building and making the dog crazy for working that produces great agility dogs. And I think that it is great that trainers in your area are so progressive with their obedience training. That doesn't mean that there still isn't widespread use of more traditional methods in formal obedience training.


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## MissMutt

Alerondogs, I HAVE seen the type of shut-down obedience dogs you're talking about, but it's becoming more and more rare as more comp-level instructors get their inspiration from people like Denise Fenzi as opposed to someone more correction-based. I have NEVER seen the device you have pictured (what the heck is it?) and, even if still prevalent in comp ob in certain places in the country, I SURELY doubt that's something that would be seen in beginner "obedience" classes, which is kind of where this whole debate started.


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## trainingjunkie

My guess is that we are all closer to agreeing than disagreeing.

Soul-crushing yank and crank drilling isn't going to be good for an agility dog. (or any dog.)

A dog who can't focus, recall, or walk along side its handler isn't going to be worth much either. (anywhere off property!)

Dogs should come to agility with the ability to run along side their handler off leash, recall beautifully, be capable of doing a sit-stay, and ignore distractions.

Being in a class with a totally untrained dog sucks royally. Waiting for someone to work through start-line issues and zoomies is frustrating.

As long as basic training isn't soul-crushing, it's a good, good thing.

Mine do agility and obedience. The work in both rings reinforces the work in the other.


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## GottaLuvMutts

Interesting fork in the road for this thread. I'm intrigued.

Kit was crazy when I adopted her. Certifiable, really. Insane drive, no impulse control. We took an obedience class almost immediately, which was what saved her from being returned to the shelter. So I'm a BIG believer in obedience classes. Not formal obedience classes where you learn all sorts of relatively useless things about how the dog should position itself, etc. But classes that teach newbie owners (like I was) about NILIF and how to walk a dog without being dragged behind it.

Fast forward three years. Kit takes weekly agility classes and competes successfully in trials. She has earned her novice versatility title in NADAC, and we're transitioning up to open, as she earns her superiors. We've been trialing for a little over a year now.

BUT...(and here's the point of my post)...no one would call Kit well behaved. We would fail the CGC if we took it today. When I take her into pet stores, employees still offer me business cards for basic obedience classes. Everyone wants to know how old she is - they expect somewhere around 6mo (she's actually pushing 4yr). None of this bothers me - I love her for being goofy, and I wouldn't want a well-behaved dog. Do I have control over my dog? Yes, clearly I do if we can succeed at agility. But she continues to take every opportunity to be a nut job. 

So...the value of obedience training before beginning agility. For me, I'd like to see a dog just starting agility to have some skills already. Impulse control was huge for us. Sit and stay are nice. Recall is necessary. Maybe some off leash experience, though some agility classes will help build this. More than anything, I'd like to see a dog who wants to work with its handler, which is often fostered through lots of practice working with the handler (imagine that)! Would a formal obedience class help? Yes, probably. But no more so than a less formal obedience class, flyball class, trick class, nosework class, disc class, or any other activity that helps foster the bond between dog and handler.


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## Poly

GottaLuvMutts said:


> .... More than anything, I'd like to see a dog who wants to work with its handler, which is often fostered through lots of practice working with the handler (imagine that)! Would a formal obedience class help? Yes, probably. But no more so than a less formal obedience class, flyball class, trick class, nosework class, disc class, or any other activity that helps foster the bond between dog and handler.


Precisely my point. 

How could working with your dog in* anything* be detrimental?

And another thing that hasn't been mentioned. I feel that training and working with your dog in different activities also improves his or her mental capacity. It's not really about entering competitions in those activities - although a lot of people like to have training goals to shoot for.


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## Alerondogs

Poly said:


> Precisely my point.
> 
> How could working with your dog in* anything* be detrimental?


 It really depends on the methods used. 



Poly said:


> And another thing that hasn't been mentioned. I feel that training and working with your dog in different activities also improves his or her mental capacity. It's not really about entering competitions in those activities - although a lot of people like to have training goals to shoot for.


 Yeah I do lots of "stuff" with my dogs too. Flyball specifically really helped get my young dog confident and fast with distance work in agility. But I still think certain types of training will be detrimental if you want a fast, confident agility dog. Dogs can be trained to be too careful, think too much and worry too much. That is what you don't want. Training everything as a game though, well the dog doesn't really know the difference between activities


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## Xeph

> Do you honestly think that dogs can compete sucessfully in obedience without a LOT of drive and confidence?


Even though it's been mentioned, considering the laggy, inattentive dogs that go on to get their obedience titles, the answer is yes.

Strauss is almost 8, but I'd still like to continue working him in agility. You know why I don't? Because trainers around here don't want to deal with his shrieking, and I don't own my own equipment.

It blows.

And formal obedience classes often DO squash drive. Yes, MORE people are following trainers like Denise, but I wouldn't say the majority are. The overall structure of formal obedience is "Do it, or else", and dogs stop making their own choices, always looking to the handler for fear they'll be corrected.

I see it in my own dog, really. There's a lot of wasted potential in him because I trained in a manner that was relatively ineffective.

Can I work away from him? Yes. To the degree he would have been capable of? No.


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## Kyllobernese

I started competing in Agility with Kiska my four year old Shih Tzu x Maltese, last year. She is very shy of people and it has really really helped her self confidence. She is very small and still does not like people reaching out at her but will, on her own go up to people now. I did try some Obedience classes with her but there was just too much activity close to her and she obviously did not enjoy it. She does not totally love Agility like Remmy does, but when she gets out there, she has fun. No Q's yet but that is not why I do it with her. I like her to just go out there, have fun and get more confidence in herself. Even if she never wins a ribbon, I will still feel it was worth the work as she is so much happier around people now.


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## GottaLuvMutts

Xeph said:


> Because trainers around here don't want to deal with his shrieking, and I don't own my own equipment.


Mmm, crappy trainers around your area. A dog that's shrieking because it can't contain its enthusiasm is exactly the kind of dog that I'd want for agility. 

Kit was shrieking at nosework class last night. The instructor made a point of telling me NOT to correct it, and told me it doesn't bother her and she hopes I don't find it embarrassing. Hard to be embarrassed by it after 3 years. If someone told me I had to shut her up or not come back, I'd leave too.


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## Xeph

> A dog that's shrieking because it can't contain its enthusiasm is exactly the kind of dog that I'd want for agility.


I hate the shrieking. Kills my ears, and it's a sign of lack of control. I chose to deal with the screaming in order to get control on the course, but people don't LIKE to work with shrieky dogs in a group setting when they have several other dogs that can cap their drive.

Strauss is almost 8, and I am still embarrassed by his screaming, because he's so well behaved in other areas


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## GottaLuvMutts

Xeph said:


> I hate the shrieking. Kills my ears, and it's a sign of lack of control. I chose to deal with the screaming in order to get control on the course, but people don't LIKE to work with shrieky dogs in a group setting when they have several other dogs that can cap their drive.
> 
> Strauss is almost 8, and I am still embarrassed by his screaming, because he's so well behaved in other areas


What happens if you tell him to be quiet? Is it that he CAN'T contain himself, or simply that he CHOOSES not to if he has the option to scream? I think there's a big difference, because the former suggests lack of control, while the latter is just expressing enthusiasm.

Now that I've started nosework, I find myself examining this question more and more. In nosework, the handler isn't really supposed to be delivering commands or signals, or really interacting with the dog at all. So correcting the dog for something like this is a big no-no. Left to her own devices, Kit will go over threshold at every opportunity. But if I suddenly told her to come, sit, and be quiet, she would. Again, it's not really a matter of lack of control - just the dog's inability to exhibit self-control.

I can understand trainers who wouldn't want a shrieking dog in a class full of softer dogs. It could scare them or make them uncomfortable, which isn't conducive to agility. Kit's enthusiasm has manifested itself in ways that other dogs don't always appreciate.


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## Xeph

He can't control himself with the screaming. He's leaking (more like pouring out) drive. He's like a bottle of soda that you've shaken up, but the cap is under so much pressure, soda is making it's way out of the seal.

Telling him to be quiet and rewarding him for such does nothing. He's come a long way, but I've had to just accept the screaming/


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## MissMutt

I've got to be honest, maybe it's just who I train with, but I have never heard of true-blue agility instructors complain about vocalization. Many times, they themselves have dogs that whine or bark or scream on course. Have people in your area really said that they don't want to have a shrieking dog in their classes/lessons? 

I dislike shrieking myself, but a lot of dogs do it on course and are still successful agility dogs.


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## Xeph

I don't think you guys understand....people COMPLAIN about Strauss. Because they pay money to be in the class too, the clubs/trainers don't want to lose money, and so they opt to ask me to leave, instead of losing 4 o 5 other paying customers.

There's only one place I can train (with Nikki), and only during the spring/summer (due to weather, as training is outdoors).


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## Keechak

Alerondogs said:


> If leash dependency wasn't ever an issue when training for obedience trials, why does a major supplier of obedience products sell these? FWIW they are used to trick your dog into thinking they are still on lead and therefore can still be corrected.


Actually those are made to make the dog feel like they are "Off" leash not "On" leash. They make the dog feel off leash but still give the handler immediate control if necessary. It's transitioning tool for dog who may not quite be ready to be fully trusted off the leash. I have never personally used one and I have trained thru the CDX level which requires all off leash work


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## Alerondogs

Xeph said:


> I don't think you guys understand....people COMPLAIN about Strauss. Because they pay money to be in the class too, the clubs/trainers don't want to lose money, and so they opt to ask me to leave, instead of losing 4 o 5 other paying customers.
> 
> There's only one place I can train (with Nikki), and only during the spring/summer (due to weather, as training is outdoors).


 LOL yes Strauss is welcome to come to my classes at any time  

But yeah, Xeph is right that a lot of instructors/participants would take issue with his vocalization. I think people here are imagining a dog who vocalizes while running but that isn't so much the thing with Strauss. Strauss shrieks like only a GSD can while waiting. He really has a hard time patiently waiting 



Keechak said:


> Actually those are made to make the dog feel like they are "Off" leash not "On" leash. They make the dog feel off leash but still give the handler immediate control if necessary. It's transitioning tool for dog who may not quite be ready to be fully trusted off the leash. I have never personally used one and I have trained thru the CDX level which requires all off leash work


 Exactly. They are used because there is an issue with leash dependency with some formally trained obedience dogs.


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## Xeph

> He really has a hard time patiently waiting


Yeahhhh....

This isn't a dog that only screams when he runs the course. This is a dog that screams as soon as he sees the equipment. He screams on the walk to the field, he screams during his start line "stay", and he screams as he runs. He doesn't stop screaming until he has a tug in his mouth, and even then he's not QUIET....he's just changed from screaming to growling while tugging.


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## RaeganW

I have seen Strauss scream while heeling six steps at the back of a dog show. I'll back Xeph up on this one, this isn't your "border collie barking in the weave poles" kind of thing.


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## Keechak

Alerondogs said:


> Exactly. They are used because there is an issue with leash dependency with some formally trained obedience dogs.


can you please define "leash dependency" for me? I do both agility and obedience and I use a leash in the beginning stages of both, so I'm not sure I'm understanding your term correctly.


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## Alerondogs

Keechak said:


> can you please define "leash dependency" for me? I do both agility and obedience and I use a leash in the beginning stages of both, so I'm not sure I'm understanding your term correctly.


 What I mean by leash dependency is that the handler is dependent on the ability to use the leash to enforce trained behaviors. The shark line for example, is used to "transition" the dog from on to off lead heeling so that the dog learns he can be corrected for poor heeling even when he thinks he's off leash. If a dog needs to be "transitioned" to working off leash, there is some degree of leash dependency.


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## GottaLuvMutts

It's interesting that we expect the dog to scream while on course, but be quiet when it's not their turn. In my experience, it's often the opposite. Kit is quiet while running, but has a whole range of vocalizations, from a chortle to a scream, that I may hear when she's being forced to wait. I can usually tell that a run is going to go south if I'm getting insistent impatience barking on the start line.


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## Xeph

I don't expect my dog to scream...I know he's going to. I'd rather he was quiet for the whole thing. Sometimes, reality dashes expectations.


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## Poly

Alerondogs said:


> What I mean by leash dependency is that the handler is dependent on the ability to use the leash to enforce trained behaviors. The shark line for example, is used to "transition" the dog from on to off lead heeling so that the dog learns he can be corrected for poor heeling even when he thinks he's off leash. If a dog needs to be "transitioned" to working off leash, there is some degree of leash dependency.


Well, that's a definition - problematic, though. 

Of course, we do USE a lead during some training - but that is way different from establishing any 'dependency'. Even at the Novice level in obedience, a significant number of the exercises are done off-lead. Once you get beyond the Novice level, *everything* in obedience is done off-lead. 

If you and your dog cannot work well off-lead and are actually "leash dependent", you can't expect to get very far in obedience and you won't. 

A 'shark line' is simply a particular type of very light lead. Very light leads are used to train one specific skill - precision heeling. It is a skill that is used in obedience and in protection sports. Some trainers insist on using only that type of lead to train it - others feel that so long as the lead is very light-weight, the actual type or style of lead is not important. It isn't a question of "trusting" the dog off lead - it's a training tool. 

Perhaps you simply don't understand the concept of training precision heeling. You can only work precision heeling with a dog that *already knows* how to heel off-lead and is _actually pretty good at it_. We sometimes refer to that as "rally heeling". That's not a knock on rally-o, it's merely a shorthand description of a level of heeling performance that will give you a perfect score in rally. It will NOT give you a good score in obedience - it may even be an NQ. 

Handlers who do both rally and obedience often insist on 'over-performance' in rally for that reason. 

If your dog can't heel off-lead very reliably, you're simply not ready for that skill. 

FYI, depending on the training method, some trainers always use a lead to train for precision heeling, and some don't. It's all a matter of method.


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## RaeganW

Maybe you haven't seen _very_ traditional, Koehler-derived trainers work dogs. I have, and I suspect Aleron has too. Here in Wisconsin, the competitive obedience scene is EXTREMELY competitive, I believe the New York/New Jersey area is as well. I'm frankly a little surprised you haven't seen this type of training, so let me break it down for you:

When you train a dog with collar corrections, you have to have a means of correcting him. Shark lines like the ones pictured are one way to fool the dog into feeling off leash while retaining the ability to deliver a correction. Many trainers will accomplish the same thing with light but strong string. When you're training your dog with corrections, you can't just practice with the dog off leash. If the dog makes a mistake, you need* to be able to correct him. Fumbling about for the live ring on the collar is not effective, spooks the dog, pushes him out of position, and has poor timing.



* I say "need to" because do to otherwise is inconsistent and therefore confusing. If looking away during heeling gets a correction sometimes, but not every time, that is confusing and demotivating to the dog. I believe that is one reason dogs appear stressed in the ring, although it can also come from being overly harsh and nitpicky. Needless to say I do not _condone_ this method of training, but I know it exists and, roughly, how it works.


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## Xeph

> Here in Wisconsin, the competitive obedience scene is EXTREMELY competitive


Understatement.

The competition in WI is BRUTAL


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## GottaLuvMutts

Xeph said:


> Understatement.
> 
> The competition in WI is BRUTAL


Really? It's not big AT ALL in the PNW. I've been around multiple competitive dog sports for 3 years and I don't know anyone who does competitive obedience. I don't think I've ever seen a match (is that what you call it?) advertised in my area. If there was something close, I might go and watch sometime, though my interest in doing it is absolutely nil.


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## RaeganW

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Really? It's not big AT ALL in the PNW. I've been around multiple competitive dog sports for 3 years and I don't know anyone who does competitive obedience. I don't think I've ever seen a match (is that what you call it?) advertised in my area. If there was something close, I might go and watch sometime, though my interest in doing it is absolutely nil.


Based on conversations with competitors, the three big theatres seem to be southern New England/New York/New Jersey; California, and Wisconsin/Illinois/Eastern Minnesota.


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## trainingjunkie

I can vouch for MN. Lots of really good competitors. I know a dozen that went to the AKC Invitational.


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## Poly

RaeganW said:


> * I say "need to" because do to otherwise is inconsistent and therefore confusing. If looking away during heeling gets a correction sometimes, but not every time, that is confusing and demotivating to the dog. I believe that is one reason dogs appear stressed in the ring, although it can also come from being overly harsh and nitpicky. Needless to say I do not _condone_ this method of training, but I know it exists and, roughly, how it works.


Hi.

Different methods for training precision heeling. We do use the light-lead method, and I think it is pretty widely used in this area. But I do know of trainers who have a different approach. 

I absolutely agree with you that abusive training is unacceptable, no matter in what context you do it.


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## MissMutt

Well, this took an interesting turn.

One thing I think we can all agree on is that shark leads and light leads and precision-type stuff are not going to be taught in your average beginner pet class, which was where I was originally going with the mention of "obedience." But yeah this is a pretty interesting discussion.


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## Alerondogs

ReaganW described it quite well. The way I have seen and was taught to use a shark line was to teach the dog they could be corrected when when they were off leash. Because that is a big concern with some methods of teaching obedience.



MissMutt said:


> Well, this took an interesting turn.
> 
> One thing I think we can all agree on is that shark leads and light leads and precision-type stuff are not going to be taught in your average beginner pet class, which was where I was originally going with the mention of "obedience." But yeah this is a pretty interesting discussion.


 The issue is that if the beginner type obedience class is oriented towards that sort of training (and in my area, some definitely are) you will end up with a dog who's behavior is dependent on the owner being able to "enforce" commands through correction. No you won't work on precision heeling in those beginner classes but you won't work on anything off leash either. That was pretty much my point, when I said certain types of obedience training can be detrimental to a dog's future in agility. In teaching agility, I would much rather have a dog in class who has had no formal training but is well socialized and has a good relationship with their owner than a dog who has been "trained to obey". I'm not talking about "abusive training", I'm talking about the methods that are commonly used to train dogs for obedience or even basic training. Those dogs aren't abused but they are trained much, much differently than how I personally would approach training.

An example of this, a couple years ago I had a dog in my puppy and agility foundation class. This dog had a ton of potential for agility and was probably one of the most driven, fastest dogs I had seen of his breed. Really nice dog, liked agility for the sake of agility. Then his owner started going to competition oriented formal obedience classes. Over time one could see this dog slowing down in agility, enjoying it less and being more careful. He will still be able to do agility, will still be able to title but he won't be all he could have been.


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