# Serious Problem on my hands.



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

Hi all, I've got a hard choice to make regarding my rescue dog, Cookie. She's been with our family now for 3 months. Cookie is about 1 1/2 years old and we know little to nothing about her history. Recently she's been showing increasing signs of aggression towards my husband. She's bitten him several times, never breaking the skin, but he's had some serious red marks. He's not a dog person and I've been encouraging him to feed her; give her treats. It doesn't seem to help. When he gets home from work she charges him and barks at him. I now have to keep her on leash even in the house. 

The worst thing is she's now starting to get aggressive with one of my daughters. Last night at dinner my daughter walked into the dining room and Cookie jumped up, charged at her growling and nipped her. 

From almost day one when we first brought her home I realized she isn't the kind of dog to trust around strangers, because she nipped a lady in my home. Broke the skin. In addition, she grabbed at my neighbors pants when he came onto our property. 

I just don't know if these problems are fixable. What makes it hard is that this dog and I have really bonded. She loves me and she gets along great with my other dog. But I can't have her attacking people, period. If it were only strangers, I think I could handle that and work through her aggression issues with her, but now that it's family members, I'm just not sure it's safe anymore. The thought of sending her back to the shelter really breaks my heart. 

I have Cookie enrolled in a basic obedience class. We're about halfway through the class. I haven't really had the chance to talk with the trainer about all of this, because a lot of the really bad stuff (i.e., aggression towards family members has only been intensifying in the past two days). But I had spoken with her only to say I'm concerned about safety when we have strange children in the house. The trainer suggested a muzzle. She told me to do a search on "muzzle up", which I did, and I actually ordered two: one for Cookie and one for my other dog, Cassidy, who goes ballistic when the water meter man comes to the house--that sort of thing. But we raised Cassidy from a pup and I've never had problems with him around family members. The problems I'm having with Cookie are bad because I can't put up with her aggression towards family members. That is the one thing I fear won't be fixable. 

We're planning a family vacation next week. We had been planning to bring both dogs with us for a lot of hiking and swimming, good times. Now I just don't think that's going to be possible. We'll bring Cassidy, but not Cookie. I'm faced with two choices: do I take her to board at the vet, or do I return her to the shelter?


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

What a difficult situation for you and your family.

One option would be to have a complete medical exam specifically for the aggressive behavior (if you haven't done so already). There are medical conditions that can cause behavior issues but won't be identified during a standard exam. Ideally, you could get an appointment before your vacation, board her at the vet, and then discuss any test results when you return/pick her up. If the vet finds something, you and s/he can address it. Concurrently, you can work with a qualified, force-free trainer/behaviorist to address the behavior. 

Her behavior may not be fixable, but you won't know until you've had her assessed by a vet and qualified behaviorist. If you return her to the shelter, especially for aggressive behavior, well, she likely won't have a long stay.


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks Cookieface. It is tough! I have a phone consult with this "muzzle up" lady today, so hopefully she'll have some good ideas. I probably will board her. It'd be a shame to put Cookie down, because she's loaded with personality. She is crazy-funny. I hope it doesn't come to that, but if it does, I want to be there for her at the end. I don't want her to die alone in some shelter. That would suck.


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I do think her problems - from what you've described - are fixable, and that you could get a lot of really great advice from folks who've dealt with similar issues on this forum. 
Don't give up on her just yet!  Hang in there!


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

"Muzzle up"? If that training involves any kind of punishment- shock collars, leash pops, prong collars, poking, "tapping", anything- please reconsider. This dog, if she isn't sick, is frightened, and adding pain and fear to that is not going to help.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> "Muzzle up"? If that training involves any kind of punishment- shock collars, leash pops, prong collars, poking, "tapping", anything- please reconsider. This dog, if she isn't sick, is frightened, and adding pain and fear to that is not going to help.


My understanding (I haven't thoroughly checked the site) is that "muzzle up" is a project to encourage the use of muzzles for dogs who need them using force-free, positive reinforcement-based methods and to remove the stigma attached to muzzles.

From their training plan,


> The goal for muzzle training is for your dog to enjoy wearing a muzzle outside, in the home, or at the vet. Your dog should exhibit happy body language when he sees and wears the muzzle. In technical terms, we call this a positive conditioned emotional response (+CER). Your dog should not exhibit fearful body language in the presence of the muzzle; we call this a negative conditioned emotional response (-CER), and is what we seek to avoid through training.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Oh, good. Sorry, there's another trainer that uses similar terminology ... it's hard to keep them all straight.

I wish more people used muzzles and that it were seen as more acceptable in general. Muzzles don't solve any problems, but they do keep people and other dogs safe while you're working on the actual problem.


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

"Muzzle Up" was recommended to me by a very reputable trainer (from St. Hubert's) here my area. So, in the end I decided to board Cookie at the vet while we're away on vacation. We can take Cassidy with us on vacation and begin the Muzzle training (via skype) with Maureen from Muzzle Up. When I return, it will be Cookie's turn to "Muzzle Up". I feel like we at least have a plan now, so that's good. I'll keep you posted!


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Maureen is a graduate of Jean Donaldson's Academy for Dog Trainers! As a current student, I can tell you that the program and its graduates are about as force-free as they come  I've looked at the program, myself, and follow both the Muzzle Up Project and Maureen's Mutt About Town on Facebook and I, personally, think the program is great.

I've actually added muzzle training as a "just in case" kind of measure like crate training. I think it's great for dogs to get used to them


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

St. Quiteria said:


> "Muzzle Up" was recommended to me by a very reputable trainer (from St. Hubert's) here my area. So, in the end I decided to board Cookie at the vet while we're away on vacation. We can take Cassidy with us on vacation and begin the Muzzle training (via skype) with Maureen from Muzzle Up. When I return, it will be Cookie's turn to "Muzzle Up". I feel like we at least have a plan now, so that's good. I'll keep you posted!


I'm glad you found someone to work with. I hope things go well.  With aggressive behavior / biting, it's good to have someone knowledgeable about dog behavior who can see what is going on.



Effisia said:


> Maureen is a graduate of Jean Donaldson's Academy for Dog Trainers! *As a current student*, I can tell you that the program and its graduates are about as force-free as they come  I've looked at the program, myself, and follow both the Muzzle Up Project and Maureen's Mutt About Town on Facebook and I, personally, think the program is great.
> 
> I've actually added muzzle training as a "just in case" kind of measure like crate training. I think it's great for dogs to get used to them


When did that happen? How do you like it?


----------



## North&South (May 20, 2015)

Well...I've been practically sitting on my hands all day, and writing and deleting and thinking "I should just stay out of this..." But I did some looking to see what sort of dog Cookie is, and she looks big enough to seriously hurt someone. And she charged at your daughter and nipped, unprovoked? This is serious and frightening.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

cookieface said:


> When did that happen? How do you like it?


I was accepted in... January I think? I'm coming up on my first exam (in September) and I'm behind on my training and assignments (yike!) but I absolutely LOVE it! My husband and I are lucky enough to be in a position where once I graduate - it's a two year program - I'll be able to quit my current job and actually open my own training business. And doggy bakery! 

The program is, in my opinion, wonderful. And Jean is beyond hands-on. I've gone through all of the "Freshman" lectures and webinars at the moment and the material is comprehensive and very useful. The community is really active and helpful and friendly, and I've been getting exposed to ideas I never would have thought about before. Like the Muzzle Up Project!

As for the OP, I really hope Maureen can help. Good luck and please do keep up updated!


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

NorthSouth, Cookie is on a very "short leash" in my house right now. No one is going to get hurt here. I am watching her all the time.


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

I will keep you updated. Thanks!


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Effisia said:


> I was accepted in... January I think? I'm coming up on my first exam (in September) and I'm behind on my training and assignments (yike!) but I absolutely LOVE it! My husband and I are lucky enough to be in a position where once I graduate - it's a two year program - I'll be able to quit my current job and actually open my own training business. And doggy bakery!
> 
> The program is, in my opinion, wonderful. And Jean is beyond hands-on. I've gone through all of the "Freshman" lectures and webinars at the moment and the material is comprehensive and very useful. The community is really active and helpful and friendly, and I've been getting exposed to ideas I never would have thought about before. Like the Muzzle Up Project!
> 
> As for the OP, I really hope Maureen can help. Good luck and please do keep up updated!


That's awesome! I've heard really good things about the program and Donaldson. Good to know they're true.  Wish you were closer - I'd absolutely support your bakery and training business.



St. Quiteria said:


> I will keep you updated. Thanks!


Great! Wishing you much success!


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

An update. I haven't been doing the muzzle training with Maureen as yet. Money issues. I won't use the credit card for this. 

However here's the good news:Cookie has taken to the muzzle pretty well and she wears it whenever I leave the house (I have a large family with people coming and going so this makes muzzling necessary). It's never on for more than about 3 hours at a time. She gets muzzled on walks--to encourage a positive association. She also gets muzzled anytime she might encounter a stranger in our home. 

Now the bad news: My friend and her daughter came over unexpectedly and my girls opened the door while Cookie was there, unmuzzled and barking. My friend got bit. Right in the butt. My friend had a puncture wound with no damage to her shorts. I'm just so ambivalent as to what to do. I emailed the rescue organization we adopted her from. I sent them a long message letting them know of our difficulties, but got no reply. During the adoption process one of their volunteers had mentioned they work with people and dogs in their home when necessary. I'm thinking I need a trainer to come to the house to assess her aggression. If this organization can't help me, then I realize I'll have to shell out a good chunk of cash for a house visit. So I'll have to start saving towards it. I just can't give up on Cookie yet. In the meanwhile, I'll have to have a family sit-down about safety rules to make sure there will be no more mishaps.


----------



## BostonDan (Dec 29, 2014)

A quick question, do you feel the Cookie is biting out of aggression, playing, or fear. We didn't have as serious of a problem as what you are describing, but I had the entire family over-exaggerated the pain every time Lincoln would bite us. Lincoln never broke the skin, but did bite hard thinking this was how to was play with others. Lincoln still mouthes us from time to time, but now it's not even as hard as an infant squeezing someones hand. 

I'm trying to stop the mouthing while my wife and daughter enjoy playing with her actively mouthing. I worry that she will mouth a child one day and the child and parent will react as if she is biting hard. This part of the training is not going as well without having them on-board. Whatever training method you decide, I would work hard to get your husband and kids on-board so Cookie receives consistent messaging from everyone. Good Luck!


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

Hi Dan, It's aggression. I've been trying to read up on dog aggression at the ASPCA website and from what I gather, Cookie believes she is defending our home. I think the best I can hope for is a trainer who will help me to minimize her reaction to strangers coming over to our home, but I think this will always be an issue for her and I'm going to have to be on guard about that. I don't think I will ever be able to trust her completely.


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

St. Quiteria said:


> Hi Dan, It's aggression. I've been trying to read up on dog aggression at the ASPCA website and from what I gather, Cookie believes she is defending our home. I think the best I can hope for is a trainer who will help me to minimize her reaction to strangers coming over to our home, but I think this will always be an issue for her and I'm going to have to be on guard about that. I don't think I will ever be able to trust her completely.


When strangers come to your home, have your dog come outside on-leash to greet them. Have your guests avoid making eye contact or any advancements towards your dog. When she is showing that she is calm, you can invite them inside. Make sure you're rewarding her for checking out the guests outside and reacting calmly. This should help at least a bit and over time may offer a dramatic change in behavior. 

With my Moms dogs we have to do this every time we go over if we bring Toby, because if we don't do an outside greeting than Tyson becomes very aggressive towards Toby and will try to eat him.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

It's disgusting that the rescue won't respond.
I, personally, wouldn't have a dog that I couldn't trust around strangers. If I didn't have the time or money to work this through with a capable trainer, and I had ruled out some physical problem, I would make the hard decision and return her to the shelter (or p.t.s. . . . the shelter will probably do this anyway). There are many many sweet tempered dogs out there in need of a caring home. Aggressive behavior can be pretty hard wired, and require more maintenance than some people want to -- or are able to -- provide.
That is, unless Cookie has some fantastic points that you haven't described. I note you haven't said much positive about her.


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks, BostonBull. Sandgrubber, after yesterday I'm afraid you are right. We had an extended family gathering yesterday and were it not for Cookie being muzzled, I could see that several of the people there would've gotten bit. She kept going for people, even people she should know by now. She went for a little girl several times in the groin. I'm just afraid it's not safe and someone else will get hurt badly and it'll be my own fault. One unmuzzled slip up could be a disaster. So I think at this point I've got to make the hard choice. This is more than I think I can handle--safely.

It's too bad because we've bonded and she loves me and I love her. She's got tons of personality and is so funny at times. My other dog and I will miss her, as will my girls.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

St. Quiteria said:


> Thanks, BostonBull. Sandgrubber, after yesterday I'm afraid you are right. We had an extended family gathering yesterday and were it not for Cookie being muzzled, I could see that several of the people there would've gotten bit. She kept going for people, even people she should know by now. She went for a little girl several times in the groin. I'm just afraid it's not safe and someone else will get hurt badly and it'll be my own fault. One unmuzzled slip up could be a disaster. So I think at this point I've got to make the hard choice. This is more than I think I can handle--safely.
> 
> It's too bad because we've bonded and she loves me and I love her. She's got tons of personality and is so funny at times. My other dog and I will miss her, as will my girls.


Just came upon this thread and saw your last post - I am so sorry you're having to make that difficult decision. I know condolences from an internet stranger probably don't mean too much, but I do believe you're making the right choice for your family, your friends and even for Cookie, and that is a brave and admirable thing to do. 

Sending good thoughts your way.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

It is very hard to own a dog like Cookie. The reason you always have to be one step ahead to prevent the dog from biting someone. With family members and people just stopping over makes that job even harder. In today's society people like to sue. Animal Control can become involved on one of these bites and this could cause you to have to go to court and pay fines. Your dog could be deemed vicious and in some cities the choice of keeping the dog will no longer be yours to choose from. Another thing to consider is your child's face. Is it worth it to keep a dog like Cookie or your child's face is more important? I say this because most kids get bit in the face. 

I know you will NOT do this but I am saying this to anybody who is reading this post. Do not rehome the dog to another home. Do not pass your problem onto another household unless that household is capable of handling such a dog. I have seen this happen quite a few times. Dog is a problem so lets just wipe our hands of the problem and give the dog to another family. So wrong.

I am hoping the best of luck to you and your family. It is a tough spot to be in. Most do choose to return the dog or have the dog PTS . I do not blame these owners either, it is a tough spot to be in.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

St. Quiteria said:


> Thanks, BostonBull. Sandgrubber, after yesterday I'm afraid you are right. We had an extended family gathering yesterday and were it not for Cookie being muzzled, I could see that several of the people there would've gotten bit. She kept going for people, even people she should know by now. She went for a little girl several times in the groin. I'm just afraid it's not safe and someone else will get hurt badly and it'll be my own fault. One unmuzzled slip up could be a disaster. So I think at this point I've got to make the hard choice. This is more than I think I can handle--safely.
> 
> It's too bad because we've bonded and she loves me and I love her. She's got tons of personality and is so funny at times. My other dog and I will miss her, as will my girls.


Sorry to read this. I know it was a very difficult decision for you. I hope there is some consolation in knowing that you did everything you could.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

luv mi pets said:


> It is very hard to own a dog like Cookie. The reason you always have to be one step ahead to prevent the dog from biting someone. With family members and people just stopping over makes that job even harder. In today's society people like to sue. Animal Control can become involved on one of these bites and this could cause you to have to go to court and pay fines. Your dog could be deemed vicious and in some cities the choice of keeping the dog will no longer be yours to choose from. Another thing to consider is your child's face. Is it worth it to keep a dog like Cookie or your child's face is more important? I say this because most kids get bit in the face.
> 
> I know you will NOT do this but I am saying this to anybody who is reading this post. Do not rehome the dog to another home. Do not pass your problem onto another household unless that household is capable of handling such a dog. I have seen this happen quite a few times. Dog is a problem so lets just wipe our hands of the problem and give the dog to another family. So wrong.
> 
> I am hoping the best of luck to you and your family. It is a tough spot to be in. Most do choose to return the dog or have the dog PTS . I do not blame these owners either, it is a tough spot to be in.


Agreed wholeheartedly. 

I will say (and you probably already know this) that returning Cookie to the shelter will result in her being PTS. Instead of returning her to a crazy, high stress environment, I'd recommend taking her to your family vet. It may be harder on you that way, but it will make things easier on her. When I had my last dog PTS due to cancer, he got a little panicky while he was falling asleep, and I am thankful that I was there to comfort him, as hard as it was for me. I would recommend that all owners makes the same choice, to be there with their dogs until the end.


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm sorry it's come to this but it's what I would do. I agree with Hiraeth: please take her to your vet and be with her at the end.


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

I think it's probably best to just take her to the vet, but I'm gonna have to really toughen up for that. Putting a sick dog down is one thing, but a healthy young dog like Cookie feels like such a waste. My kids will hate me. I won't tell them, I'll just take her and go. They'll think we've gone for a walk.

I guess legally I have to hear back from the rescue because I signed a paper promising I wouldn't put her down without written consent from them.


----------



## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

St. Quiteria said:


> I think it's probably best to just take her to the vet, but I'm gonna have to really toughen up for that. Putting a sick dog down is one thing, but a healthy young dog like Cookie feels like such a waste. My kids will hate me. I won't tell them, I'll just take her and go. They'll think we've gone for a walk.
> 
> I guess legally I have to hear back from the rescue because I signed a paper promising I wouldn't put her down without written consent from them.


Of course this decision should be based on your individual children, but I think it would maybe be good to let them say goodbye. Her absence may seem less real to them, and they may be upset with you, if they don't get the chance to say their farewells. It will be upsetting for them either way, but I think being honest with them about it would be better.

That is just my opinion, and maybe it's the wrong opinion for your particular children, but as a kid, I didn't get to say goodbye to my childhood dog, and I've never 100% forgiven my parents for that. I know they thought it was the right thing for me at the time, but I would have wanted to give her one last hug.

Best wishes.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

No advice, but I wanted to stop in and say that I'm so sorry you're going through this and I think you are making the right choice. What a heartbreaking situation all around. ::hugs::


----------



## DogTheGreat (Jul 9, 2015)

Also no advice, because I think you've gotten some great advice already and you know what is best. At one point, I had to seriously consider rehoming my dog due to interdog related aggression within the home (and some outside) and that alone was a very heartbreaking time. I can't even imagine what you're going through having to do this. I'm really sorry. All the best.


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm torn on the rescue part.

We adopted a coonhound who ended up biting a family member. She also had severe SA. I thought she should hae been put down but we signed a contract. I did the "right" thing by contacting them & they wanted her back. 
I wish I had put her down, *we* loved her and *we* should have been with her. They never would have known she was PTS.

The decision is yours and i wish you peace.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I mentioned contacting the rescue because some want to know about a dog prior to the owner doing anything. Depending on how the wording is within the signed contract the rescue could be like a co-owner. Since you said you had called the rescue and got no response, I would mail them a certified letter telling them of your plan. In that letter state they have 5 days to contact you or you will be taking the dog to your vet to have euthanized. Some owners want to be with their pet till the end while others do want to be there. I do not blame either owner. My brother is that can not stay owner. He would much rather remember the dog alive than to have his last memories of the dog dead. 

As far as the kids go, tell them the truth. Lying to them is only teaching them they can lie to you. Your kids will grow up probably to be the next set of pet owners. Take this time to teach them about responsible pet owning. Explain to them why you are doing this. Your kids may be too young now to grasp this but as adults they will be thankful for your honesty. One day they might be faced with the same thing. Parents love to teach their kids about animals giving birth but shy away from teaching the children about death. When I took my ASPCA euthansia course, the instructor said not to tell kids the animal was being 'put to sleep' because young kids would think that by going to sleep the child would not wake up and some children ended up having nightmares over this.


----------



## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

Since the thread isn't about training any longer, I've posted my reply over in the rescue forum. http://www.dogforums.com/dog-rescue-forum/394626-having-return-rescue-dog.html

Thanks to all who replied!


----------

