# A dog's effectiveness against an intruder



## pi1otguy (Jan 1, 2011)

What do you guys think? This just adds more evidence to my "bigger dogs are nicer dogs" theory.

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/20068430/how-would-your-pooch-react-to-an-intruder

I've never trained Spirit to be an "attack dog" since at 30 lbs she's too small even if interested IMO. Luckily she will alert and has actually pointed me towards people near or in my house (or any house we're visiting). Early on I learned that Spirit is ineffective. Turns out the FedEx guy entered my backyard while I was away and neatly stacked several boxes back there while Spirit was in the yard.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm interested to know what would be an ideal reaction for these people. Bite an intruder? Maim them? Kill them? How do you differentiate bite from maim from kill to a dog? If your dog hurts someone, whether they would be an intruder or not, your dog can be labeled as dangerous. 

A dog is a great deterrent to would be intruders. A dog that is comfortable biting/hurting people who walks into the house, burglar or not, is dangerous in my opinion. There are lots of situations where someone needs to come into your house, maybe while you are not there, and your dog is a threat to their life. If your dog hasn't met them before...well, now they might get bit or hurt. What would happen if police needed to get in, firefighters, paramedics, friend, visiting relatives, kid wanders in yard to get a ball, etc. You can't tell the dog who are intruders and who are welcome.

Also news stations have done this before. One of the problems is the guy in the bite suit knows dogs. He is comfortable around dogs. He knows he is safe in a bite suit and safe in the sense that there are people there to call 911 if he got hurt. That in itself can elicit a different reaction from these dogs. He also wasn't a real burglar with the same endorphins kicking up. Dogs can detect minute changes in a person's physiological state and because this was "fake" can also elicit different reactions in the dogs. (I assume a real burglar would be nervous, anxious, running on endorphins and dogs can detect nervousness/uncertainty and some may be off put by that and react more strongly). Not saying it would change the dog's reactions, just saying it could. Also I wouldn't give the German Shepherd any props for biting. He was cornered (at least it looked that way) and most likely bit to get the guy away so he COULD run away. 

My dog would most likely bark and then show him all the good stuff for a treat. Do I mind? No. I don't want a dog that bites intruders, personally.


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## LadyBugAnBuddy (Jul 13, 2012)

Nil said:


> I'm interested to know what would be an ideal reaction for these people. Bite an intruder? Maim them? Kill them? How do you differentiate bite from maim from kill to a dog? If your dog hurts someone, whether they would be an intruder or not, your dog can be labeled as dangerous.
> 
> A dog is a great deterrent to would be intruders. A dog that is comfortable biting/hurting people who walks into the house, burglar or not, is dangerous in my opinion. There are lots of situations where someone needs to come into your house, maybe while you are not there, and your dog is a threat to their life. If your dog hasn't met them before...well, now they might get bit or hurt. What would happen if police needed to get in, firefighters, paramedics, friend, visiting relatives, kid wanders in yard to get a ball, etc. You can't tell the dog who are intruders and who are welcome.
> 
> ...


^This.

I Don't want my dog to bite somebody coming in. They DO alert me when somebody in the yard or at the door, or coming in side, but they will not bite. If it was someone unwelcome, they might get scared by Ladys bark and run, but, if one don't I don't expect Lady or Buddy to attack. My job is to protect THEM, not them protect me.

~Erica~


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Neat video. I've seen another like this on another news network comparing other dogs. Doesn't surprise me one bit, really.

I know that mine wouldn't do a thing, and I question whether or not a dog trained in a protection sport would do anything if he didn't have an owner there to tell him to, as well.

but, fyi, on the size thing you mentioned with spirit; any sized dog can do it.  Here's a JRT working protection- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIXQnbc2Rsk


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## Shakespaw (Aug 5, 2012)

My dogs bark at everything that rolls up to my house. One wasn't all that scary, but I think the combined barking of the two of them is pretty intimidating, even if they're only about 30-40lbs each. I don't think you really need a 100lb dog to deter an intruder - people definitely step back when my 37lb dog is barking and growling at them.

I would never, ever want a dog that would actually bite or attack an intruder. They should bark, growl, and warn, but stop once I tell them it's okay, but should never lay teeth on anybody. That's really dangerous - dogs don't really know how to differentiate an intruder from a welcome visitor - to them, anyone new is going to look like an intruder.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

I don't think either of mine would do much more than bark and get up in someone's face if they were to enter the house. Livia more so than Loki (Loki would probably run off to show the stranger a stuffy at some point LOL)

I like to think that over 200 lbs of barking dogs would be enough to keep people out anyway.


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## odiesmom (May 31, 2007)

My 2 little dogs,Sophie 10 lb poochon and guapo 8 lb yorkiepoo, are a great early warning system . Lucifer the 96 lb lab doesn't bark and I doubt would do anything unless someone was doing ME harm .
I had a jobo for a couple years delivering pizzas and one thing I learned is to watch out for any dog that is on a tie out or runner, they seem to be more"on guard" than indoor dogs. It was a dog on al; chain the bit me so bad it took 26 stitches to sew my errr.... upper thigh back together. OUCH
Also as NIL pointed out the guy in the costume was used to dogs and basicaly unafraid, dogs sense fear etc in dogs more than some think .


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

In the rottie video, someone else was visible outside the window... the owner? Someone else on the crew? The dog kept going over to look out the window at that person. The person had their hands on the window pane and was really distracting.

I agree that these videos prove very little. The guy was confident, he was calm, he didn't break anything. The owners may not have been far away; if they were outside, the dogs could still smell/hear them.

As for my dogs, Crystal would bark furiously at him, but wouldn't bite. If he talked nicely to her, it would go very similarly to the papillon mix's video, with her eventually approaching. Casper would also bark like crazy, but he would absolutely bite if approached. I have done a lot of work with him when it comes to strangers, and he trusts me to judge whether or not people are scary, but if I wasn't there, he'd go nuts.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

80% correct for the video, the world that we live in is counter conditioning to the dogs. I am not offended that my dogs wont eat people over non living things, am glad they not going to kill someone over non living items. People come and go from my house and I allow it that it's ok, we are active in public places and people and it's ok. It's that personal protection when you are being threaten that has always mattered to me and never needed any training. Again with counter conditioning from owners becareful what you discourage in the dogs. A training class I had a Berner/Saint Bernard mix that was just hyper hyper and I was just allowing him to settle into the training center environment, wasn't disturbing the class, I would leave the training circle and allow him to work himself out away from everyone and then return to the training circle and the Instructor was so tired of the dogs antics that she stopped the class and walked directly at me aggravated at me in verbal anger, pointing her finger at me and the dog (Mountain) went to take her out end of leash as she crossed that threshold at me, I said out heel calmly, Mountain did and was sitting quietly. Instructor was obsessed that I should correct the dog ???? I said no he's fine he did it right.  so you have to think about the little things that are already in the dogs if you want to keep them or condition them out.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

The other difference is that a real intruder would have to spend a couple of minutes either picking (or more likely forcing) a lock, breaking a window or even just climbing in, lots of other 'weird' activity that would get most dogs amped up before he's even in the door. Its pretty rare that an intruder just waltzes through the door likes it nothing, calm and collected. And if my intruder has a key or I left the door unlocked well... thats on me.

Personally I dont want a dog that would bite to protect the premises, too risky. I had a dog who would bite to protect me (and did) and even that was a liability. I think the real value in having a big dog is the look and the bark, very few people are going to break into a house with a pit or a rott or 3 dogs when the house next door has a cat.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Izze wasnt a "big" dog by protection standard, but she would & had defended my truck against anyone who got too close. Josefina would try but i dont know if she is big enough since she is smaller then Izze, Buddy would hide, he's such a wuss LOL


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## savvy (Nov 6, 2012)

One reason I got a German Shepherd was because they are somewhat intimidating and no one would mess with him, but I would NEVER depend on a dog who was not professionally trained for protection.

People thinking that a dog will naturally protect them causes a lot of neglect, many dogs are chained because people want protection.

I think a biting would be an undesirable reaction, even if the person they bit was breaking the law they could still get you in trouble for owning a 'dangerous' dog.

I have had FedEx and UPS guys drop boxes in my yard, but they never come in with a GSD in it, especially a black one =P, but it's kind of annoying because Draco has a tenancy to take off with small boxes!

But if I had a full bite suit I would definitely ask a friend who Draco has never seen to come and test his reaction, but bite suits are SO expensive!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Nil said:


> I'm interested to know what would be an ideal reaction for these people. Bite an intruder? Maim them? Kill them? How do you differentiate bite from maim from kill to a dog? *If your dog hurts someone, whether they would be an intruder or not, your dog can be labeled as dangerous*.
> 
> .


Not in Florida..... IF your dog bites, maims, kills a person in defense of its owner or in defense of an intruder, it is protected under the law. No labeling, no bite history, etc.


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## pi1otguy (Jan 1, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> but, fyi, on the size thing you mentioned with spirit; any sized dog can do it.  Here's a JRT working protection- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIXQnbc2Rsk


lol. Looks like the just taught the JRT to steal the bad guy's jacket.
Based on 2 people I know who've had break ins there's a really good chance the person is high enough require physical incapacitation, not just pain to be stopped. Having been bitten by a small dog before, I can say it definitely hurts but I'm pretty sure that with enough motivation that would me ... and I'm sober.



aiw said:


> Its pretty rare that an intruder just waltzes through the door likes it nothing, calm and collected. And if my intruder has a key or I left the door unlocked well... thats on me.


Ditto.


> Personally I dont want a dog that would bite to protect the premises, too risky. I had a dog who would bite to protect me (and did) and even that was a liability. I think the real value in having a big dog is the look and the bark, very few people are going to break into a house with a pit or a rott or 3 dogs when the house next door has a cat.


I'm still inclined to believe that most dogs will not protect stuff or territory against other people, but may try to something if they sense their humans are in danger (based partially on their owner's behavior).


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## pi1otguy (Jan 1, 2011)

savvy said:


> But if I had a full bite suit I would definitely ask a friend who Draco has never seen to come and test his reaction, but bite suits are SO expensive!


But your presence changes the equation. How would you know if she's guarding you or the house?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

As far as the video goes.... They picked the dogs they wanted to tell the story they wanted. 

The only two "protection" dogs, the Rottie and the GSD, were very weak nerved. The rest were friendly lap dogs.

You MIGHT see a little different results if you upped the anti a bit and had the dog owners present... The Rottie or the GSD might have engaged. As possibly those BCs. 

But that is probably typical of 90 percent of dogs....

There are dogs out there that would engage and be capable of being successful. But such dogs require an entirely different level of responsibility. 

This is also a good time for me to mention my favorite saying.... It is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

agree with JohnnyBandit for mentioning it, am suprised that the trainer went that route too in what dogs he let be tested.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

If I'm not home I couldn't give a rip that they don't do any thing. In fact, if someone breaks in when I'm not home I just hope the dogs stay away or the person just leaves them alone. I can replace my stuff, we have home owner's insurance.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> If I'm not home I couldn't give a rip that they don't do any thing. In fact, if someone breaks in when I'm not home I just hope the dogs stay away or the person just leaves them alone.


A friend of mine had a break in, we suspect they beat the dog because she turned from a sweet, trusting dog to a nervous mess who barked relentlessly at any new person in the house and would shut down and pee if approached. Stuff is just stuff, I wouldn't want to risk my dog. I have no doubt that Pete would greet any intruder with kisses and snuggles... he's ferocious.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> A friend of mine had a break in, we suspect they beat the dog because she turned from a sweet, trusting dog to a nervous mess who barked relentlessly at any new person in the house and would shut down and pee if approached. Stuff is just stuff, I wouldn't want to risk my dog. I have no doubt that Pete would greet any intruder with kisses and snuggles... he's ferocious.


A couple summers back here some sociopath kids broke into a house, took a Dachshund out of her crate, and poisoned her to death. PLEASE if someone breaks into my house let them just be after the TV or the computers. 

The only dog I know that would out right attack a stranger coming into the house is probably Jonas and well.. you're 11 lbs, bud.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

Nil already said everything I was thinking.

This guy was safe, and was making friends with the dogs. He walked through an unlocked door (with other people staring in the windows [who were there when their owner was]) and didn't really do much else besides make baby voices. I don't think that is an intruder situation.

I'm pretty sure if it were Mumble, he would first give them a good barking, then he would be SO HAPPY that someone was home. Just so happy.
Probably anyway. Maybe he'd be more wary with a complete stranger.

However, if I was home, and someone broke in, and _I_ reacted negatively to them/they tried to harm me, he would probably freak out. Would he bite them? Maybe. Would he make friends? Absolutely not.

Maybe that would be a more interesting experiment*, having someone walk in wearing a bite suit while the owner was there, and have the owner react as if they were a threat.



pi1otguy said:


> This just adds more evidence to my "bigger dogs are nicer dogs" theory.


In what sense? I only ask because from what I saw, all these dogs reacted the same. (Judging from Nil's post, apparent the GSD bit? I missed that somehow)



*Using this term _*EXTREMELY*_ loosely


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

The GSD bit, but it looks like he was cornered first. When he got an opening to get out he made a break for the stairs.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

I've rewatched this video twice and somehow I'm still missing it. All I'm seeing is the initial friendliness, then the alert barking/skirting around and away from the "intruder." Maybe my computer keeps jumping when it happens. Or maybe I'm just blind or something, lol.

At any rate, from the description I wouldn't say that it counts. It's the behavior I would expect from any dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The GSD bit, but it looks like he was cornered first. When he got an opening to get out he made a break for the stairs.


The GSD bit out of fear.... It was more weak nerved than the Brit...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The few times someone other than me has walked into my house Mia goes ballistic. I've sent my dad to let them out and until she realizes it's him, she's nuts. She's not one to go past a bark and charge unless cornered. But she would have barked constantly and if cornered might would bite. Even if I come home and act weird, she reacts. I'm pretty sure it's all fear based though. But she's very very tuned into people acting 'odd'. We were walking this weekend and a guy stopped down the path and started walking slowly towards us. Mia is great on a walk but she knew that wasn't normal behavior. She started putting on a show. I don't think the guy was up to anything, he was trying to figure out what kind of dog they were.

She's also so small that it really doesn't matter though, but she's a great alert system. Almost too alert. And her general rule of thumb is strangers are to be watched. 

Summer would have been going home with her new best friend. 

My cousin's pit bull was inside when he got robbed. No sign that George did anything except hang out with the burglars.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The GSD bit out of fear.... It was more weak nerved than the Brit...


Yeah, I had my sound down but it sounded like the owner was pleased with that? I really only listened to her saying she was surprised when he wasn't initially doing any thing. Dog looked like a hot mess in the little clips they showed of him as well and she described it as "protective"


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

Someone once told me, if a stranger approaches your home when you've got a barking dog and doesn't seem unnerved in the least you shoot them.

People are lucky I don't have a gun. lol

I wouldn't rely on an untrained dog to protect my home. A dog should just be a deterrent, if you wanna teach your dog something, teach it to bark at stuff. Personal protection isn't for every dog.
I would also like to say none of those dogs have a temperament for a dog that would protect, especially the German Shepherd, fearful, anxious, nervous. Completely unfit. Just because a dog is a Rott or a GSD doesn't mean it's a protection dog.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

Okay, I see my problem. I watched the individual dogs' videos, rather than the news piece.

Those owners sound so dumb. Except maybe the English Staffy's owner. Don't even get me started on the anchors.

"I can't believe my Papillon mix wouldn't prevent a burglar from stealing my HDTV." (not a direct quote, but the sentiment)
Yeah, okay. I can't believe my hamster wouldn't stop an arsonist.

I've got no delusions that Mumble would be able to stop a criminal from doing whatever they want. He only weighs 7 pounds. I'm sure he could probably give them a good bite (not that I want him to), but at most he would be an annoyance. I'm just not sure whether or not he would _try_ to stop them.

"I'm disappointed that my Rottie didn't live up to her guard dog reputation"

Dummy.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The GSD and the rott (especially the GSD) were very nervy and spooky. Certainly not 'protective'.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I did enjoy that at the end, the trainer spoke through the newsman about how most dogs DON'T have the nerve for protection work and should not be trained or expected to do so and all. At least there was some knowledge throughout it to dissuade people from trying to rile their dogs up to kill invaders.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> I did enjoy that at the end, the trainer spoke through the newsman about how most dogs DON'T have the nerve for protection work and should not be trained or expected to do so and all. At least there was some knowledge throughout it to dissuade people from trying to rile their dogs up to kill invaders.


Okay, true. There was that. I can get behind that.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

pi1otguy said:


> lol. Looks like the just taught the JRT to steal the bad guy's jacket.
> Based on 2 people I know who've had break ins there's a really good chance the person is high enough require physical incapacitation, not just pain to be stopped. Having been bitten by a small dog before, I can say it definitely hurts but I'm pretty sure that with enough motivation that would me ... and I'm sober.


I was just pointing out that your dog isn't too small for protection work if you wanted to, like you said.  I don't think my GSD would be able to stop an armed intruder if he was trained in protection and attacked one. Most dogs won't be able to stop someone bent on getting in and harming or stealing, even if they're attacking them.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Wow, I had only watched the individual dog videos but that GSD was a MESS! He was a nervous wreck even just on a walk with his owner. The thing is there are so many situations where people you don't know might come onto the property that its incredibly dangerous to have a dog who would bite a stranger. A kid who lost his ball, someone who is lost, anyone going to ring a doorbell if a dog has access to the front yard, even just visiting relatives. You want the bark... not the bite. Its ridiculous how tomorrow the news station will probably run a story about a vicious pit bull but tonight they were all disappointed their dogs didn't attack...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Avery said:


> Okay, I see my problem. I watched the individual dogs' videos, rather than the news piece.
> 
> Those owners sound so dumb. Except maybe the English Staffy's owner. Don't even get me started on the anchors.
> 
> ...


I admittedly loved when the guy scooped up the Pap mix and walked out. All hell would have broken loose if he tried to pick up Jonas. I've told the story before, but my boyfriend had a friend in town staying at our house a while back and he opted to come in without knocking. We were both home, but no one was actually in the living room and I was on my way up the stairs right when I heard the door open. I turned in time to watch Jonas rocket launch across the room and leap at him, biting down onto the knee of his jeans. Surely he could stop a 6'4 250 lbs man! Well, at least in his tiny mind.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I laughed too when I saw him take the pap, I just thought.... there goes Pete.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> Wow, I had only watched the individual dog videos but that GSD was a MESS! He was a nervous wreck even just on a walk with his owner. The thing is there are so many situations where people you don't know might come onto the property that its incredibly dangerous to have a dog who would bite a stranger. A kid who lost his ball, someone who is lost, anyone going to ring a doorbell if a dog has access to the front yard, even just visiting relatives. You want the bark... not the bite. Its ridiculous how tomorrow the news station will probably run a story about a vicious pit bull but tonight they were all disappointed their dogs didn't attack...


I want the bite.... And I both expect and am confident I will get the bite....

Without fear of my dogs eating children, lost travelers, or relatives...


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## savvy (Nov 6, 2012)

pi1otguy said:


> But your presence changes the equation. How would you know if she's guarding you or the house?


I guess I would have to set up a camera like they did in the video, and when I tested how protective he was of me I would do it in apublic place so he wont be affected by his territorial instincts.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I admittedly loved when the guy scooped up the Pap mix and walked out. All hell would have broken loose if he tried to pick up Jonas. I've told the story before, but my boyfriend had a friend in town staying at our house a while back and he opted to come in without knocking. We were both home, but no one was actually in the living room and I was on my way up the stairs right when I heard the door open. I turned in time to watch Jonas rocket launch across the room and leap at him, biting down onto the knee of his jeans. Surely he could stop a 6'4 250 lbs man! Well, at least in his tiny mind.


If the first entry had been my house and my two ACDs, I would have been replacing french doors. Because my dogs would have knocked that guy right back outside.....


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> I want the bite.... And I both expect and am confident I will get the bite....
> 
> Without fear of my dogs eating children, lost travelers, or relatives...


99.9% of owners couldn't safely handle a dog like that IMO. The people who can have a lot of experience and skill, but in most homes a dog who will bite a stranger entering the property is a danger. Its not the experienced handlers and trainer's I worry about, its the person who thinks their nervebag GSD is 'protective' or that their rott is made for protection and shape them to act accordingly.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If the first entry had been my house and my two ACDs, I would have been replacing french doors. Because my dogs would have knocked that guy right back outside.....


IMO, this is absolutely the difference between well-bred/balanced, stable dogs and the dogs in the videos.

On a primarily working-dog forum, most people chiming in on a thread like this would say that their dog would (and should!) bite or hold the intruders, and they're OK or happy with it because they are very stable dogs who know the difference.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Not in Florida..... IF your dog bites, maims, kills a person in defense of its owner or in defense of an intruder, it is protected under the law. No labeling, no bite history, etc.


And that is, in my opinion, a good safety net. 

Most people are protected (as is their dogs) when it comes to attacking trespasser/intruders. However it gets really fuzzy. A trespasser doesn't include someone who has _implied_ invitation (leave a gate unlocked and your front door unlocked and from what I read you have given them implied permission on your property). Now you are liable. 

Or, from what I understand of Hawaii, if your dog hurts someone on your property you pay all medical costs. There is a lot of hazy grey areas that would leave you at the mercy of the court, unfortunately. This is all from what I understand. Of course, if your dog does get a bite history put on it (our society loves to punish) then you are restricted as to where the dog goes and whether it needs a muzzle or not. 

Many people may not suffer these consequences but the risk is there. When these events happen there is a lot of panic and sometimes decisions are made far too rashly and "in the moment".


Edit: You had better hope you can prove it was in self defense though. I am not sure on FL laws but I know in CA if you kill someone/attack someone in your home you had better put a loaded gun in their hand to make sure you are not charged with murder. (I am being a bit dramatic there but you need to PROVE they had every intent to seriously harm you/kill you)


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If the first entry had been my house and my two ACDs, I would have been replacing french doors. Because my dogs would have knocked that guy right back outside.....


Well, you know Jonas has the heart. Just not the ass behind it. 

I'm am totally unsure what they would do by themselves with a strange suddenly in the house. I know Jonas would go ape regardless but I get a feeling Sham and Smalls would body slam them for attention, Magpie wouldn't get off the bed, and Jack would bark until he went cross eyed from the top of the stairs. In the aforementioned story Jack did do me a bit proud/kind of unnerved me with his body language and advancing towards the guy, I believe this was before Sham's time, or he was a wee one.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> I am being a bit dramatic there but you need to PROVE they had every intent to seriously harm you/kill you


Yeah... I like those laws. I don't actually think someone should have the right to kill another person unless they are in legitimate fear for their life or the safety of others.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

aiw said:


> Yeah... I like those laws. I don't actually think someone should have the right to kill another person unless they are in legitimate fear for their life or the safety of others.


Frankly me too. I remember a story (Texas?) where a drunk man stumbled into the wrong house on his block and went to the kitchen. Was shot and killed and all perfectly legal (if I remember right) per the "Make My Day" law. 

But this proving "intent" also lends itself some wiggle room in the courts. Or so it seems to me.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

It might be because I'm just the fool who would go hiking, stumble into someone's yard and get myself shot... or in this case bit.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

Nil said:


> Edit: You had better hope you can prove it was in self defense though. I am not sure on FL laws but I know in CA if you kill someone/attack someone in your home you had better put a loaded gun in their hand to make sure you are not charged with murder. (I am being a bit dramatic there but you need to PROVE they had every intent to seriously harm you/kill you)


Where I live in California you have to prove the dog was unprovoked when he bit. So taunting, entering the house unannounced, breaking in, etc will all fall under provoking.
I like it.

I honestly don't know what would happen if someone broke into my house. Once I had invited a couple of my friends to meet my dog at the fence, my dog met one of them just fine, the other he nipped on the hand. No barking or anything.
It's a hit and miss, whatever the person is projecting I guess will decide how my dog will react.
The funny thing is the friend my dog didn't nip at he was the nervous, unsure one, the other friend was confident. You'd think it'd be the other way around.

I think he'd bite sometimes, other times he won't.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Nil said:


> But this proving "intent" also lends itself some wiggle room in the courts. Or so it seems to me.


Yeah, the burden of proof shouldn't be on the victim. And where does the bar for burden of proof lay? Do you have to be sort of wounded or something? Will they consider whether or not you've peed your pants a credible testament to the fact you were scared enough?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> IMO, this is absolutely the difference between well-bred/balanced, stable dogs and the dogs in the videos.
> 
> On a primarily working-dog forum, most people chiming in on a thread like this would say that their dog would (and should!) bite or hold the intruders, and they're OK or happy with it because they are very stable dogs who know the difference.


My dogs are very stable.... Merlin was in the show ring yesterday..... While waiting for Group, he entertained a Sunday School group of 8 year olds and had a big time.... Doing tricks, showing off, and getting petted. 

If I said a thousand different people have met and petted with Merlin, I would probably be under estimating. 4 years on the show circuit, hotels, dog events, meet the breed booths......

But make no mistake... Try to harm me, my wife, or come in our house or vehicle uninvited he will defend me/us with everything he is worth.

He has over 100 bites on decoys.... He Always engages fully and at 110 percent. He is a dirty biter and I like him that way. I refuse to train him to a sleeve. I want him to bite what is available

The Hell Bitc h showed to her championship without incident. But she is not a social dog. I can take her anywhere and let anyone in the hoouse I choose. But she has no desire to socialize... She is a lap dog with me but other than four or five people she has no desire for affection. She only has about 20 bites on decoys.. But she is IMPRESSIVE.... Her style is considered dirty but I call it sadistic.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Nil said:


> Frankly me too. I remember a story (Texas?) where a drunk man stumbled into the wrong house on his block and went to the kitchen. Was shot and killed and all perfectly legal (if I remember right) per the "Make My Day" law.
> 
> But this proving "intent" also lends itself some wiggle room in the courts. Or so it seems to me.


He had no business in someone elses house.... He happened to be a drunk fool. But he could have always been an ax murderer.... The homeowner has no way of knowing.....

That is a legal shoot in any state with a Castle Doctrine.......


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Yeah, the burden of proof shouldn't be on the victim. And where does the bar for burden of proof lay? Do you have to be sort of wounded or something? Will they consider whether or not you've peed your pants a credible testament to the fact you were scared enough?


If someone enters your home un invited, you should be under know obligation to wait to see what their intent is..... I am not waiting.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> Yeah, the burden of proof shouldn't be on the victim.


I suppose the question becomes... who is the victim? A bite isn't so bad if the person was in the process of robbing your house, but what if its a city worker coming to knock on your door and he is mauled? What if its someone "suspicious" on the street who you think is following you but doesn't appear to have a weapon... If you injure them is it justified? It gets murky really quickly. Of course all this is complicated by the fact that if the person dies then there is no one to tell the other side of the story. 

Anyways, not straying too far from the dog stuff... A well-trained, stable dog with an experienced handler (like Merlin) doesn't worry me much and can be really impressive. Its just that in the grand scheme there aren't many of either. I think the average home should be looking for a dog to alert not protect.



> But he could have always been an ax murderer....


He could have waited til he saw the axe... or maybe after he had asked him to leave... Frankly I'm not sure people should be dying over a flat screen tv. I wouldn't kill for the sake of one. Its up to the person committing the violence to justify themselves IMO.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> He had no business in someone elses house.... He happened to be a drunk fool. But he could have always been an ax murderer.... The homeowner has no way of knowing.....
> 
> That is a legal shoot in any state with a Castle Doctrine.......


I don't argue him being a fool, and I am not arguing with the verdict. It was very legal. I was just providing an example of a law wherein a trespasser is anyone coming onto another's property vs. other statutes which imply that to harm someone on your property you need to provide that the trespasser them self had "intent to harm".

Ideally all I am trying to say is that some places you and your dog are very well protected. Other states and counties allow very little protection to dogs who bite. Are some better? Who knows. It's about knowing the laws, knowing your dog, and training your dog as you see fit with this knowledge. Most dog owners can not handle the type of dogs that can accurately determine friend from foe and as such, I would rather they look at a dog as a deterrent versus full on protection.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> I suppose the question becomes... who is the victim? A bite isn't so bad if the person was in the process of robbing your house, but what if its a city worker coming to knock on your door and he is mauled? What if its someone "suspicious" on the street who you think is following you but doesn't appear to have a weapon... If you injure them is it justified? It gets murky really quickly. Of course all this is complicated by the fact that if the person dies then there is no one to tell the other side of the story.
> 
> Anyways, not straying too far from the dog stuff... A well-trained, stable dog with an experienced handler (like Merlin) doesn't worry me much and can be really impressive. Its just that in the grand scheme there aren't many of either. I think the average home should be looking for a dog to alert not protect.
> 
> ...


I'm talking about someone coming into my house. How would a city worker knocking on the door getting mauled by a dog not be a victim? I'm also not going to follow any one down the street, especially if I think they look suspicious. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> If someone enters your home un invited, you should be under know obligation to wait to see what their intent is..... I am not waiting.


Yeah, I'm barely 100 lbs. If someone breaks into the house I'm not waiting for any thing. Self preservation, yo. I have a million escape plans mapped out in my head because that's really my best option, but if not I am going to look them dead in the eye and say "Come at me, bro." before I am promptly murdered.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Well, the worker is on your property, your dog won't necessarily know the difference and I meant someone was following YOU (you think) but they haven't actually done anything yet...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The ONLY thing I need my dogs to do is alert (actually with the new alarm system I don't need that anymore) my husband or I will take care of the rest (his .45 and my 9mm).


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> I suppose the question becomes... who is the victim? A bite isn't so bad if the person was in the process of robbing your house, but what if its a city worker coming to knock on your door and he is mauled? What if its someone "suspicious" on the street who you think is following you but doesn't appear to have a weapon... If you injure them is it justified? It gets murky really quickly. Of course all this is complicated by the fact that if the person dies then there is no one to tell the other side of the story.
> 
> Anyways, not straying too far from the dog stuff... A well-trained, stable dog with an experienced handler (like Merlin) doesn't worry me much and can be really impressive. Its just that in the grand scheme there aren't many of either. I think the average home should be looking for a dog to alert not protect.
> 
> ...


IF a person enters a home uninvited for whatever reason.... The homeowner is the victim. 

A better question is how do you know where the home invader is going to stop? Maybe all they wanted was to steal my tv..... But I am never going to know that... The pleasentries end when they cross my threshold uninvited.... Whether it is via the dogs or me.... I am not willing to risk the my familie's safety and well being over attempting to find out what an invaders intentions are.


As for the city worker, lost person or anyone else knocking on the door... Ican engage them and invite them in without fear of my dogs. Because my dogs are not aggressive... Aggression is not protection..... Anyone that keeps dogs that have the drive, nerve and tenacity to engage a human adversary knows this. It takes a stable dog......


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> Well, the worker is on your property, your dog won't necessarily know the difference and I meant someone was following YOU (you think) but they haven't actually done anything yet...


My dogs will never have access to a worker on my property without me present.... The dogs cannot go out front without me. And a worker cannot go in my back yard or my house without me letting them in. 

My door stays locked so some fool cannot walk in by chance..... IF they got in, they broke in. So they already committed a crime of aggression.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

aiw said:


> Well, the worker is on your property, your dog won't necessarily know the difference and I meant someone was following YOU (you think) but they haven't actually done anything yet...


A properly trained, stable dog WILL know the difference. 

Short story;
My mothers first Male Rottie was a prime example of this, the mailman, meter readers, neighbors ect could enter the property (yard) at any time, ANYONE could enter the house WITH INVITATION from us, TWICE this dog stopped intruders (strangers), ONCE he bit an intruder. The ONLY person known to us that he ever stopped from coming into the house was my EXHUSBAND after we had split and I was living at my parents. I told the ex to wait at the door, turned to get the kids and he came in uninvited, Butch STOPPED him and BACKED HIM OUT OF THE HOUSE. The dog had NEVER been trained other than obedience.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> Well, the worker is on your property, your dog won't necessarily know the difference and I meant someone was following YOU (you think) but they haven't actually done anything yet...


Why am I letting my dog get any where near random city workers, or strangers for that matter, if there is a chance they will maul them? That's not a stable dog I'd let near people. If someone is following me I still have no need to confront them period. Those situations don't muddy the waters for someone entering my home uninvited. I am not going to hang out in my arm chair in my underwear and say "Oh hey, is there some reason you're in here?" I'm likely not going to be thinking straight in that sort of situation in the first place, so I suppose I can't say exactly what I'd do but the thought of waiting for them to clearly present danger to me is not one of those things. They're in MY house already.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> A properly trained, stable dog WILL know the difference.
> 
> Short story;
> My mothers first Male Rottie was a prime example of this, the mailman, meter readers, neighbors ect could enter the property (yard) at any time, ANYONE could enter the house WITH INVITATION from us, TWICE this dog stopped intruders (strangers), ONCE he bit an intruder. The ONLY person known to us that he ever stopped from coming into the house was my EXHUSBAND after we had split and I was living at my parents. I told the ex to wait at the door, turned to get the kids and he came in uninvited, Butch STOPPED him and BACKED HIM OUT OF THE HOUSE. The dog had NEVER been trained other than obedience.


This brought back a fond memory of my boyfriend's friend's dad and his Rottie, Cinjun. Cinjun never laid his teeth on a person in his life, but if you entered the garage (like, a car garage where the family worked) you were not leaving that garage unless someone Cinjun knew told him to let you go. He'd just stand at the door and body block your every move. Never saw any one press to get by him, but he never growled/showed teeth/lunged/anything which was somehow scarier. He'd just step in the way.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

To me, the house is more of a red zone than the property. If they are in your house and don't leave when told I would consider that pretty legitimate fear. I don't know if the law makes a distinction between house and property in Castle Doctrine? 

Management and quality of the dogs is why I don't worry about dogs like Merlin, plus dogs usually give you a nice scary warning. Anyone in their right mind would listen to it and if they're not in their right mind you probably have something real to protect yourself from.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

my county allows legally to have a vicious dog, and a repeat bit offender. There are exact specifications of containment in keeping the dog. and it's a $50.00 fine if that dog gets out and terrorizes someone on the open streets and someone complains. I was totally shocked sitting in court hearing it. CO is very confusing as to what laws will be applied when dogs are involved. My property is set up that inocient people can drive up my drive way and come to the front door and never be met by a dog. I built a people friendly zone just for that. The service people do have the right away, I filled out a form when my house was set up of what dogs I do have. I could not get the meter put on the front of the house nor the propane outlet as I tried to get it so. It is in the back of my house in the dog area.. And they usually knock since I have a 6ft fencing on the back yard and the gates are chained and pad locked with a 5ft fence panel secured and bocking the gate. Normally my dogs are in side the house if I leave the property. with my property gate locked at the road. Funny how many people don't seem to think that front gate locked makes difference and just walk in???????


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't know what my dogs would do, but I prey they wouldn't do anything because like TWAB said, we also have home owners insurance that covers theft.

But if they bit someone who was trespassing , here the same "castle" rules that give me the right to fire upon a trespasser protects my dogs actions against them as we'll. there are a lot of folks with sheep/goats here that have LPD's who will also defend against human intruders.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Oh my, there were 8 replies yesterday. Have not read all the new yet but just gonna say that all the people that don't want their dogs to bite probably have never had a break-in. Actually the dog wanted is the dog that knows who and when to bite.

I'm just sayin'....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well I finally watched the video and it's just about the stupidest thing I've ever seen. People calmly walking in your front door with an entourage of camera people is nothing like a home invasion. There's nothing about that dude's body language that screams "intruder!"


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Oh my, there were 8 replies yesterday. Have not read all the new yet but just gonna say that all the people that don't want their dogs to bite probably have never had a break-in. Actually the dog wanted is the dog that knows who and when to bite.
> 
> I'm just sayin'....


Wrong. We had a break in when I was younger. The person who broke in nearly killed the dog - who was an Aussie/Chow and very protective, dog - he was, however, untrained and not terribly stable, and we weren't there so who knows what happened (but no one came into our house unexpectedly without getting growled at and blocked at the door, including people who should have been). 

I'd MUCH rather them take my stuff, even everything I own, and leave my dog alone. I figure odds of that are much higher if my dog is not aggressing at them. My ideal scenario involves the dog hiding, not biting. The problem with that, of course, being that I like my dogs to not be fearful of people coming in. Still. The dog wanted by me is one who gets, and stays, the heck out of the way and SAFE.

Maybe if I had bigger dogs who could do something to effectively stop the intruder, but as it is my biggest is < 25 lbs. All that's going to happen if mine bite are them getting punted across the house like a football - or worse.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

totally agree with you ! the other obsticle is finding a real trainer for protection work. And misconception that getting training on your dog for protection work is a death sentence for your dog and a huge court liability.. which to me is the outcome of poorly trained dogs that never had the temperment to be trained for protection work by unqualified trainers.. not that easy task to find a qualified trainer in majority of areas. If anyone has a link that would be helpful I would love to have it.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

Form a family of law enforecement big dogs are a detterent and the type dog is even more so! There were interviews done in the prison of convicted home invaders(burglars) and they were asked if a dog would deter them from breaking in and if so how big and what color and kind of dog? The majority said a big dog,a black dog and a pitbull.Noone goes near a yard with a pitbull.Small dogs are not a deterrent even if barking.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Here in CO they just posion the dogs first to get rid of any threats, it's extremely wide used and effective


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Wrong. We had a break in when I was younger. The person who broke in nearly killed the dog - who was an Aussie/Chow and was very, very, protective.


Well you and I have different views/opinions etc. What does having a dog that knows who/when to bite have anything to do with your dog being injured.

Any dog left in our home was crated if we were not home, as I was not interested in protecting things that were insured etc. 

When we were home we then became not only a family to protect but also partners with whatever dog whose job it was to potect us. The dog is alerting and doing whatever is necessary to give us time to get a gun, make a phone call whatever we had to do to help dog.

It appears our values are world's apart, a dog is expendable, family is not.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Bear2010 said:


> Form a family of law enforecement big dogs are a detterent and the type dog is even more so! There were interviews done in the prison of convicted home invaders(burglars) and they were asked if a dog would deter them from breaking in and if so how big and what color and kind of dog? The majority said a big dog,a black dog and a pitbull.Noone goes near a yard with a pitbull.Small dogs are not a deterrent even if barking.


This is one of the few things that made me consider a larger dog - not that I don't like them, but for practical reasons I find small-to-medium dogs work better for us. 

Then I thought about it and realized that I don't really expect a dog to protect me, in any capacity. * For me*, the protection of my home and family (including animals) is the responsibility of the adult human members of the household. I mean, sure, it'd be nice if someone looked at my dog and said 'eh, not worth it', and it'd be extra nice not to worry about the occasional loose dog on walks trampling the heck out of one of mine, but at the same time? I don't want my dogs to look scary to people. That's inviting a different kind of harassment and targeting. 

Mostly, I just want my dogs to be politely apathetic toward people who are not members of the household, NOT bark (alert or otherwise), stay out of other people's way, and I'll handle the threats and deterrent (alarm system, security lighting, good relationship with my neighbors and watching each other's homes, pepper-spray, and a gun). But this is just me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

wvasko said:


> It appears our values are world's apart, a dog is expendable, family is not.


A dog biting an intruder, with or without someone home, is increasing the odds of getting kicked across the room. I like my dogs nice and cooperative, because I have had experience with a dog trying to protect and ending up beaten and shot as a result - not worth it (to me). My attitudes would probably be different had he been protecting a person instead of property. 

I can easily imagine scenarios wherein a dog could buy time for an owner to get a gun, call 911 or get out. I can also imagine them being useful in cases of fire. 

That doesn't mean I expect that dog to provide that service for me. As far as I am concerned the security of my home and family is MY problem. Not my dogs'. That means keeping the property and people under my roof safe is my issue - not theirs. I would be okay if they chose to alert to someone coming in, unknown to me, but really - motion sensor lights and a security system provide that for all of us just fine, and prevents annoying barking at the garbage truck and door-to-door solicitors. 

And, seriously? I don't think implying I'm okay with my family dying but not my dog was really particularly okay, there. I was respectful, I just disagreed with what I expect my (< 25lb dogs) to do for me, and the statement that anyone who has had a break-in (home invasion is someone home, a break-in is not, so far as I know) would want their dog to do. That really didn't warrant an attack on my values.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> And, seriously? I don't think implying I'm okay with my family dying but not my dog was really particularly okay, there. I was respectful, I just disagreed with what I expect my (< 25lb dogs) to do for me.


I said our values are different no more no less. Nowhere did I imply you were okay with your family dying.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

wvasko said:


> I said our values are different no more no less. Nowhere did I imply you were okay with your family dying.


Then I misinterpreted what you said about a dog being expendable and family not being. That, I agree with and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

CptJack said:


> This is one of the few things that made me consider a larger dog - not that I don't like them, but for practical reasons I find small-to-medium dogs work better for us.
> 
> Then I thought about it and realized that I don't really expect a dog to protect me, in any capacity. * For me*, the protection of my home and family (including animals) is the responsibility of the adult human members of the household. I mean, sure, it'd be nice if someone looked at my dog and said 'eh, not worth it', and it'd be extra nice not to worry about the occasional loose dog on walks trampling the heck out of one of mine, but at the same time? I don't want my dogs to look scary to people. That's inviting a different kind of harassment and targeting.
> 
> Mostly, I just want my dogs to be politely apathetic toward people who are not members of the household, NOT bark (alert or otherwise), stay out of other people's way, and I'll handle the threats and deterrent (alarm system, security lighting, good relationship with my neighbors and watching each other's homes, pepper-spray, and a gun). But this is just me.




From someone that has had all her neighbors houses broke into and their doors kicked in and all their stuff stolen and I have a 12 year old son and we live out on a secluded horse farm..it's sort of nice to have a scarey looking dog to where folks may think twice before invading your house and family.I can go out back to the bean field and out of eyesite of the house and rest assured with my son in the house(he is 12) that Dakota has his watchful eye on him and our home.To each his own I guess.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

IMO, it doesn't matter if your dog is going to engage or not... 

Based on police raids, home invasions I've seen in the news, if a dog is loose and barking or running at the intruder in any way and he's armed, he's going to shoot and kill the dog.

If I have a dog that knows this guy isn't warranted in my house and was loose, I'd expect him to put up a good fight before going down. Would make it a lot easier to identify the theif and killer (of said dog) if there was a full bite on his leg or arm that he had to go to the ER for. 

This is why I prefer my dogs out of the way and crated or confined while I'm gone. I don't want anyone to have a reason to shoot my dog or otherwise harm him.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Bear2010 said:


> From someone that has had all her neighbors houses broke into and their doors kicked in and all their stuff stolen and I have a 12 year old son and we live out on a secluded horse farm..it's sort of nice to have a scarey looking dog to where folks may think twice before invading your house and family.I can go out back to the bean field and out of eyesite of the house and rest assured with my son in the house(he is 12) that Dakota has his watchful eye on him and our home.To each his own I guess.


Like I said - it was one of the things that made me consider a bigger dog, and it would be nice on some levels. My scales just tipped the opposite direction. That probably has something to do with the fact that I don't really want a bigger (or solid black) dog anyway. That means it'd be unfair to the dog, since it'd be living a life to do nothing but look scary. Also, I live in a town, on about a quarter of an acre. I'm not judging other people -seriously!- It's just not something that works for me.

Re: DJEtzel: And that's part of why I'm glad my dogs don't even alarm bark. People the dogs have never seen can, and have, walked into my house unannounced. They don't even wake up about half the time. ...well part of the reason I'm glad. The rest has to do with how obnoxious I find barking. Kylie's pretty talky when she plays, Bug will occasionally bark during super hyper play (though she's deaf, so alarm barking won't happen from her, either). I've NEVER heard Jack bark. (Though yes, 2 of the 3 are always crated when we're not home. Who is out rotates. None of them would cause a fuss with someone breaking in, though, for which I'm glad. OTOH, I don't think my home being broken into is terribly likely. Possible, of course, just not a serious risk in our location.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> IMO, it doesn't matter if your dog is going to engage or not...
> 
> Based on police raids, home invasions I've seen in the news, if a dog is loose and barking or running at the intruder in any way and he's armed, he's going to shoot and kill the dog.


If an intruder is at my house armed then I would really hope my dog would be the first line of defense to give me time to get the family out or get our gun out!!! people want to breakin,get what they came for quite and get out,by shooting a dog they are making lots of noise to get themselvs caught,they will skip your house and go to the next in most cases.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Like I said - it was one of the things that made me consider a bigger dog, and it would be nice on some levels. My scales just tipped the opposite direction. That probably has something to do with the fact that I don't really want a bigger (or solid black) dog anyway. That means it'd be unfair to the dog, since it'd be living a life to do nothing but look scary. Also, I live in a town, on about a quarter of an acre. I'm not judging other people -seriously!- It's just not something that works for me.
> 
> Re: DJEtzel: And that's part of why I'm glad my dogs don't even alarm bark. People the dogs have never seen can, and have, walked into my house unannounced. They don't even wake up about half the time. ...well part of the reason I'm glad. The rest has to do with how obnoxious I find barking. Kylie's pretty talky when she plays, Bug will occasionally bark during super hyper play (though she's deaf, so alarm barking won't happen from her, either). I've NEVER heard Jack bark. (Though yes, 2 of the 3 are always crated when we're not home. Who is out rotates. None of them would cause a fuss with someone breaking in, though, for which I'm glad. OTOH, I don't think my home being broken into is terribly likely. Possible, of course, just not a serious risk in our location.


We each make our own choices that works for our home and family.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> Based on police raids, home invasions I've seen in the news, if a dog is loose and barking or running at the intruder in any way and he's armed, he's going to shoot and kill the dog.


Police raids are a whole 'nother animal, and one that, your dog REALLY isn't a deterrent from. The dog presents anything that looks like it might even possibly be dangerous or in the way, and the dog is dead.  I mean, really, not like the cops care if they're being noticed by the people in the neighborhood. 

OTOH, most people can pretty reasonably say that a police raid is REALLY unlikely. 

The other thing to think about, along this vein (no judgement, I swear, just thinking aloud) is if your dog would be able to be rescued by firefighters, rather than becoming a threat to them, or let EMTs into your home if you were incapacitated and needed help (if you're unconscious on the floor, you can't give an 'okay' to let them in, and your door is still getting kicked in. Crates help, obviously, if something breaks out while you're not home. Not so sure about that if you're unconscious on the floor, or a fire breaks out in the middle of the night.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Police raids are a whole 'nother animal, and one that, your dog REALLY isn't a deterrent from. The dog presents anything that looks like it might even possibly be dangerous or in the way, and the dog is dead. I mean, really, not like the cops care if they're being noticed by the people in the neighborhood.
> 
> OTOH, most people can pretty reasonably say that a police raid is REALLY unlikely.
> 
> The other thing to think about, along this vein (no judgement, I swear, just thinking aloud) is if your dog would be able to be rescued by firefighters, rather than becoming a threat to them, or let EMTs into your home if you were incapacitated and needed help (if you're unconscious on the floor, you can't give an 'okay' to let them in, and your door is still getting kicked in. Crates help, obviously, if something breaks out while you're not home. Not so sure about that if you're unconscious on the floor, or a fire breaks out in the middle of the night.


I think regarding firemen, etc.... In most cases, a stable dog that knows when to protect has been heavily socialized to all types of people; including those in uniform, coming and going into a house or yard for work and know that they are OK people, not someone random they don't know walking into their house. Of course... with a fire... it could completely change a dog's senses for the worst or better, and there's really no way to train that. 

I have a sticker on my window for an in case of fire with a note; too many dogs, please call _________ and I left my number. Would firemen even go through your house looking for dogs if they knew you had them? I don't know how they work, but I have dogs scattered throughout the house... luckily, I live in a subdivision type area with a ton of old people who are always home and pesty/watching neighbors... I burnt some leaves the other day and a man came running to my fence thinking that my garage was on fire. I've never even met the guy, but apparently he's a neighbor... so thankfully, a fire at my residence would hopefully be recognized the minute it started and a crew could get it put out with the dogs inside safe, still. I like to think a fire isn't that likely, though... we have new wiring since I just bought it and don't light candles or that sort of thing much if ever...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Well you and I have different views/opinions etc. What does having a dog that knows who/when to bite have anything to do with your dog being injured.
> 
> Any dog left in our home was crated if we were not home, as I was not interested in protecting things that were insured etc.
> 
> ...


This!!!!!

I LOVE my dogs and dote on them as much as anyone. Those that are facebook friends of mine know that about all I talk about are my dogs. Merlin is a Rock Star!!!


That being said..... I LOVE my wife more.... And if all my dogs got taken out, protecting her, so be it. OF course I would be upset, but if you asked me if I would rather see my wife harmed in any way or my dogs killed, there is no question. I want my wife SAFE. 


I have always looked at the human/dog relationship as a partnership. Whether hunting, working stock or just life in general. I always have my dog's back but I also expect them to have mine. That being said, I do not expect a dog to do more than it is mentally or temperamentally capable of doing. Our Lab Buc for instance. I have NEVER expected him to defend us or have any sort of protective nature..... He is not that kind of dog...

The ACD's on the other hand.... I expect them to stand up to ANY threat and to fight if need be. I did the same with my Catahoulas, my Rottweiler, etc. And... I was careful to choose dogs that had the correct temperament, drive, nerve, courage, and tenacity to engage and fight a man. And to win. 

I have also had all of the dogs that I have owned that I expected to defend me, do some sort of bite training. I have always left it loose and sloppy... My dogs are dirty biters. You will see not pretty sleeve bites with my dogs. They bite what is available and what is vulunerable. They are looking to do damage. If you have the right kind of dogs, and have them do bite training but leave it loose, it is amazing what they learn. Just send them and let them figure it out. My dogs know that hands are dangerous, they know that if they grab one hand, that leaves the other free. They know objects in the hand can be dangerous. Merlin has learned if he hits hard and high, it take people off their feet. Both of my ACDs also know that if they grab someone high from behind they can pull them down. A little practice with a decoy goes a LONG way. The decoy is going to know much more about fighting dogs than a criminal. 

And that is the key..... IF a dog is going to fight a man. Not catch and detain. But fight! The dog needs to get the man on the ground. And the smaller the dog the faster it needs to make this happen. Also the smaller the dog the smarter and more creative it needs to be in doing so. A 120 pound dog can just plow into a man and knock him down. A 50 pound or smaller dog needs to use intelligence, gravity and leverage to get the man down. It is not punches or kicks that will get most dogs. A dog can take a fair amount of blows to the head and shoulder area. It is the man being able to grab the dog. 

If the dog can get the man on the ground without being significantly injured, the odd roll VERY VERY heavily in the dogs favor. The groin, head and neck are now in easy reach.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Well I finally watched the video and it's just about the stupidest thing I've ever seen. People calmly walking in your front door with an entourage of camera people is nothing like a home invasion. There's nothing about that dude's body language that screams "intruder!"


This..... My dogs would have ate the camera people before the decoy even came in.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

I grew up with Danes and pits, no one would ever try to enter our house with them barking. It wouldn't matter if they would bite them or not.

Our puppy will grow to be nearly 150 lbs. I imagine that alone is deterrent enough.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> IMO, it doesn't matter if your dog is going to engage or not...
> 
> Based on police raids, home invasions I've seen in the news, if a dog is loose and barking or running at the intruder in any way and he's armed, he's going to shoot and kill the dog.
> 
> ...


The dog that barks and threatens but stops short is the easy target. Basically the dog is standing there asking to get shot. A dog that is coming full speed and follows through on the attack is much harder to hit. They can still get shot. But its not easy. And now the dog has created mayhem. And the more mayhm they cause the more the odds swing to their favor.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The dog that barks and threatens but stops short is the easy target. Basically the dog is standing there asking to get shot. A dog that is coming full speed and follows through on the attack is much harder to hit. They can still get shot. But its not easy. And now the dog has created mayhem. And the more mayhm they cause the more the odds swing to their favor.


Yes, this is exactly my point.

However, I know my dogs wouldn't/couldn't defend the house, so they're out of site JUST in case.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I have always looked at the human/dog relationship as a partnership.


Boy the above says it all, since joining DF I have heard the alpha/leader words more times since 2008 than I did the 1st 46 yrs of dog training. Partnerships is where it's all at.

As far as protection dogs I love a dog that does a full blown muzzle attack.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> I think regarding firemen, etc.... In most cases, a stable dog that knows when to protect has been heavily socialized to all types of people; including those in uniform, coming and going into a house or yard for work and know that they are OK people, not someone random they don't know walking into their house. Of course... with a fire... it could completely change a dog's senses for the worst or better, and there's really no way to train that.
> 
> I have a sticker on my window for an in case of fire with a note; too many dogs, please call _________ and I left my number. Would firemen even go through your house looking for dogs if they knew you had them? I don't know how they work, but I have dogs scattered throughout the house... luckily, I live in a subdivision type area with a ton of old people who are always home and pesty/watching neighbors... I burnt some leaves the other day and a man came running to my fence thinking that my garage was on fire. I've never even met the guy, but apparently he's a neighbor... so thankfully, a fire at my residence would hopefully be recognized the minute it started and a crew could get it put out with the dogs inside safe, still. I like to think a fire isn't that likely, though... we have new wiring since I just bought it and don't light candles or that sort of thing much if ever...


My soninlaw is a fireman and he use to be search and rescue,the first in to find people,now he is an aresenic investigator...they carry pepper spray and or mace for situations like this,they will not let a dog deter them from saving a human.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> This!!!!!
> 
> I LOVE my dogs and dote on them as much as anyone. Those that are facebook friends of mine know that about all I talk about are my dogs. Merlin is a Rock Star!!!
> 
> ...


I am with you on this,any dog can be somewhat of a deterent,just depends on how determined the intruder is will depend on how determined that dog is.My sig line explains the balance of a dog/man relationship to some degree,he will defend you till the end, in return you care and love him with all that you have.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't know what mine would do Josefina would prolly be the only one that would try, Bear might try to help but he's far to small to make any real difference, but the others, Buddy & Yumi would hide bc they are wuss's lol.

Related question: if someone has a protection breed (Rottweiler, GSD, malinois, cane corso etc...) that is well socialized to "know" what "off" human body lingo looks like do you guys think they would "try"? & if they did would they succeed?


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> I think regarding firemen, etc.... In most cases, a stable dog that knows when to protect has been heavily socialized to all types of people; including those in uniform, coming and going into a house or yard for work and know that they are OK people, not someone random they don't know walking into their house. Of course... with a fire... it could completely change a dog's senses for the worst or better, and there's really no way to train that.


Dakota was amongst 30 people(5 were small kids 3 and up) Saturday at a pig pickin of strangers he has never seen before,they all loved him,he was the life of the party and got plenty of attention! he basked in it,Dakota knows with lots of training(lots) when people are welcomed and when they aren't welcomed..and heaven help the person that trys to harm his children or the family! As far as one of us laying unconscious and a fireman or police walk up and Dakota not able to read my or our expressions I really can't say...like you said... I have no way to train him for that really.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Bear2010 said:


> My soninlaw is a fireman and he use to be search and rescue,the first in to find people,now he is an aresenic investigator...they carry pepper spray and or mace for situations like this,they will not let a dog deter them from saving a human.


Then there's also that dog in new york that was shot for guarding his unconscious owner.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

"A dog's effectiveness against an intruder "

I dunno..
I think my Wife would probably be more agressive towards an intruder...(shes Sicilian)

Me and Roxxie like to sleep alot...and go for walks by the lake...and look for squirrrels ....
We have so much fun together..


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I'd bet on a Sicilian over a Rott any day!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

If I was to think about it...... Bad guys have more to fear from me than the dogs....

I have two guns hidden in the living room
One in the Kitchen
One in the front bathroom
One in the front bedroom
Several in the bathroom

Those are just the ones that are ready to go...


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

aiw said:


> I'd bet on a Sicilian over a Rott any day!


I married a Siicillian woman for protection...
THEN..
I got a Rottweiler because they are VERY affectionate..


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> If I was to think about it...... Bad guys have more to fear from me than the dogs....
> 
> I have two guns hidden in the living room
> One in the Kitchen
> ...


Throwing stars under the teapot, a mace cleverly hidden in the chandelier!
Not to mention the sharktank trap door....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> Throwing stars under the teapot, a mace cleverly hidden in the chandelier!
> Not to mention the sharktank trap door....


Since the advent of gunpowder I see no point in using outdated weapons.... But I would like some sharks with lasers on their heads.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Several in the bathroom


Hmmmmmm!!
I'm wondering what's in the bathroom that needs several guns to protect it.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> But I would like some sharks with lasers on their heads.


You and me both...*sigh* I guess we'll just have to dream of the day...



> Hmmmmmm!!
> I'm wondering what's in the bathroom that needs several guns to protect it.


True! I wonder...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Hmmmmmm!!
> I'm wondering what's in the bathroom that needs several guns to protect it.


It was a typo.... Meant our bedroom.....


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It was a typo.... Meant our bedroom.....


Is it the Old Spice Guy?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If someone broke into my house with the intent of stealing something, they'd be mightily disappointed. Unless they want a few cats. I don't know what my dogs would do if I weren't home. I know that strangers can just jump into my yard with impunity, because my uncle (whom they had never met before) did just that. But IDK about the house. 

I hope that if someone came in with the intent to harm ME, the dogs would do something, anything, to give me time to get away and call 911. But mostly I just hope that bad guys think twice about entering a home with a Rott and a big hairy brown GSD mutt (and Penny, who doesn't look terribly threatening, but maybe her blue eyes will creep them out ).


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Since the advent of gunpowder I see no point in using outdated weapons.... But I would like some sharks with lasers on their heads.


oh but there's such a sense of satisfaction and elegance when you slice into something with a sword or nail something with a tomahawk or throwing knife.

Guns are so.....crude.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

If someone broke in with the intent to harm me and harmed one of my dogs in the process I like to think I'd go full Rambo.


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

If someone broke into my house... Jasper would do what he always does when someone comes over and just slink around trying to hide. I don't even think he would bark. He's very nervous around strangers, even if I happily let them in.
I hope that Buttercup would bark. I don't know if she really would though. She's young right now but I do hope that she eventually gets a little protective.

I'm not sure how I feel about her biting or "attacking" an intruder... On one hand if someone broke into my house they would deserve to be bitten. On the other hand, since she's never been trained for any kind of protection, I'd be worried that she wouldn't be able to differentiate between real threats and perceived threats. For instance, a few months ago we were at my in laws house and a woman walked right into their house (they never lock the door). She was obviously high on something and it was a very tense, scary few minutes. She wasn't angry or threatening, just confused and high. She kept saying that she needed to talk to "Sandy" and we kept telling her that she had the wrong house and needed to leave. She finally did leave, but it was very stressful. I was holding my baby daughter in my arms and I swear I was looking around the room for a weapon to use if things went bad. So scary. 
Anyway, in that instance I would not have wanted my dog to attack the woman. I would want some angry sounding barking, but that's it. Now if some child molester was crawling through my kid's window, I'd want my dog to rip his face off..... I'm not sure if my untrained dog would be able to tell the difference between the intruders. 

As far as it being my dog's job to protect us... It's not my dog's job, but it would be nice. I agree with the partnership thing. Humans didn't domesticate dogs just to have another mouth to feed, they expected something back. My dog's job is to be a companion for our family.  If I would have chosen and trained a dog for protection, that would be part of the "job description".


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## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

I always say that unless one owns a fully trained personal protection dog or has a guardian breed from working and tested parents (but even then it's possible your dog won't have the right temperament),
there is a good chance that dog won't protect its home or even its owner.
And I think that dogs guard best in pairs, they are much more confident that way. 
I also see our dogs as our family members, but I think there's nothing wrong with getting a dog for protection.
As long as that dog is is loved, well taken care off, safely confined and there are warning signs on the property (in some states you have to make sure you are not implying that your dog is dangerous though). 
I just feel like if someone would come in with the intent to harm me for whatever reason, it would be good to know that my dogs would have my back like I have theirs.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

zhaor said:


> Then there's also that dog in new york that was shot for guarding his unconscious owner.


I guess you just can't be prepared for every scenario there is.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

For anyone interested here is the article that interviewed inmates and also from Head Crime Prevention Officer comments on best breeds for deterent.
http://www4.ncsu.edu/~n51ls801/securitydogs.html


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Buster is a fairly good watch dog. Given a choice he'll lay in front of the door and...watch.









Of course to be an intruder, they'd have to get past Buster. His idea of guard dog duty...









Buster is a better deterrent than anything and thats more because of his size than his willingness to bite. Most people are very hesitant and cautious around Bus. Thats really all I want...him to make someone think before they act on any stupidity that crosses their mind. He has alerted me, a few times, to people that he was uncomfortable with. He's subtle about it (usually) and simply places his body between me and the person he has deemed a potential threat. If it came down to someone coming into our home uninvited, my bets are on my husband for protecting our family. Hopefully Buster will have enough sense to keep out of sight!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Through the years I have heard of dogs with absolutely no training and very well mannered pets that when the moment of truth happened out of nowhere changed into competent protection dogs.

Also heard of a few dogs that actually protected their owners from bear attacks. I personally think If I was a dog burglars would be child's play compared to a bear. Just Sayin'...


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Through the years I have heard of dogs with absolutely no training and very well mannered pets that when the moment of truth happened out of nowhere changed into competent protection dogs.
> 
> Also heard of a few dogs that actually protected their owners from bear attacks. I personally think If I was a dog burglars would be child's play compared to a bear. Just Sayin'...


I have also known some dogs like this.


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## HicktownJuliet (Aug 26, 2012)

Out of my three, Will would keep barking. From far away and up close. Sandy, she loves everyone. I wouldn't want them to do anything but bark though. But Dally, especially when it comes to me being around, I have no doubt she would attack someone who came into our home. For being a small girl, 20 some lbs and about 19 inches tall she has a very big scary bark. She is protective, and lots of people have told me Catahoulas naturally are. One night a friend came over to borrow a kennel. I opened the door and turned on the outside light as she walked up to the door. Dally stood beside me and as soon as she seen someone walking towards us, she crouched down and got between us. Barking and warning the "stranger" not to come closer. She was alright once she realized who it was. She is very affectionate with me and members of my family, but reserved and wary of strangers. Takes her awhile to warm up to people, and its not that we haven`t socialized her.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Through the years I have heard of dogs with absolutely no training and very well mannered pets that when the moment of truth happened out of nowhere changed into competent protection dogs.
> 
> Also heard of a few dogs that actually protected their owners from bear attacks. I personally think If I was a dog burglars would be child's play compared to a bear. Just Sayin'...


A dog that will stand toe to toe with a torqued off 1500 pound scrub steer, is not likely to be worried about a man.... Or anything else....


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I actually think dogs will guard against humans and other animals in different ways. My gut tells me Soro would not hesitate to defend if I was ever attacked by a dog. But although he has shown some natural guarding instinct, and wariness of the 'right' people at the 'right' times, I don't think he would harm a human other than lunging with some air snaps. If the assailant came closer I think he would continue to snarl and act big, but not actually put a tooth on him. It would be up to me. Well, people should fear me before they fear my dog anyways


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

My dog is a burglar alarm and a first-notice door bell. Even though he's 60 lbs, most people in this Forum would ignore him or pet him, if he started barking. Most potential intruders around here are not dog people, and a dog barking is an effective deterrent, plus he riles up the neighboring dogs ... We live in a safe neighborhood.

If you're concerned for you safety or property, come to Texas and buy a gun. If an intruder comes into your house, feel free to greet them with the business end of a double barrel shotgun. If he can still talk to a lawyer, you might have trouble. Also, if you catch him just as he's leaving with your TV, there may be questions. But, you have full rights to protect yourself and anyone else, from harm. 

There was a case with a 76 yo woman who found an intruder locked in her closet, when he wouldn't come out, she shot him through the door, didn't kill him. The police did not press charges.

In case of intruders, my dog may scare them (he has!!!), but he will not protect me... that's up to me.


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## Bear2010 (Aug 21, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> My dog is a burglar alarm and a first-notice door bell. Even though he's 60 lbs, most people in this Forum would ignore him or pet him, if he started barking. Most potential intruders around here are not dog people, and a dog barking is an effective deterrent, plus he riles up the neighboring dogs ... We live in a safe neighborhood.
> 
> If you're concerned for you safety or property, come to Texas and buy a gun. If an intruder comes into your house, feel free to greet them with the business end of a double barrel shotgun. If he can still talk to a lawyer, you might have trouble. Also, if you catch him just as he's leaving with your TV, there may be questions. But, you have full rights to protect yourself and anyone else, from harm.
> 
> ...


Here in NC we also have the right to protect ourselves and property with a gun! this only works if you aren't surprised to quickly or not home and they want to steal you blind...this is where my ole faithful comes in( the dog)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> There was a case with a 76 yo woman who found an intruder locked in her closet, when he wouldn't come out, she shot him through the door, didn't kill him. The police did not press charges.


Absolutely love it, she should get a medal and a 25,000.00 reward from the county/state. (buy more shells)


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> My dog is a burglar alarm and a first-notice door bell. Even though he's 60 lbs, most people in this Forum would ignore him or pet him, if he started barking. Most potential intruders around here are not dog people, and a dog barking is an effective deterrent, plus he riles up the neighboring dogs ... We live in a safe neighborhood.
> 
> If you're concerned for you safety or property, come to Texas and buy a gun. If an intruder comes into your house, feel free to greet them with the business end of a double barrel shotgun. If he can still talk to a lawyer, you might have trouble. Also, if you catch him just as he's leaving with your TV, there may be questions. But, you have full rights to protect yourself and anyone else, from harm.
> 
> ...


Man, there is another good article that is the same deal except it was a 12 year old girl. Heard someone bashing the door, called her mom, mom said get the gun and hide so she hid in the bathroom closet while her mom called 911. When the guy went to open the door she shot him through the door.

I love good old fashioned justice, so I have a wealth of articles about these sort of things.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Roxxie is very protective over us.
She is over 100 lb Rottie and doesnt like strangers in her backyard ..or near her cars.

As far as being a guard dog and protecting us against intruders...Thats not why I got her.
I chose this breed for other reasons.

A more effective solution to intruders and evil doers would be a neighborhood watch program....and multiple
security cameras.

I dont think using a family pet for protection is a good idea..


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## PyrettaBlaze (Nov 2, 2012)

Chewie will bark at anyone entering the house, but that's all he does is bark a little.

Harley, on the other hand, will rip to shreds anyone entering the house or backyard (it's fenced) that does not live here. One of us must give the "ok Harley" command or he will cause some serious damage. Now, he is discriminating in that. Any child can approach him and he will not even bark, but a strange adult is screwed. He's been taught a tight list of things: 1) If they don't live here and we don't say "ok Harley" eat them. 2) Children are not a threat. Even the kids can give the command and he stops instantaneously. We just check the window to see who's there before we open the door and give the command before we turn the knob. He'll then greet the person, tail wagging, and meek as a lamb.

If we are out somewhere with him he greets everybody and is super friendly. It's only the house, property, and vehicles that are under protection. The only exception is if someone screams. If me or one the kids screams he will automatically go for the offending person. It's something my grandfather started with his dogs after he got drunk one night and beat up my grandmother. After that night he taught all his dogs that if my grandmother or one of the kids was assaulted the dogs are to attack (he used himself as the training aide and had the scars to prove it). Now, my husband gladly acts as the training for that (wearing protection). If he, my brother, or a stranger draws back (fist, item, etc) and I or the kids scream, Harley will bark once and then he's on them. 

I like it that way. We live in a high risk meth area of the county, my husband works nights, and the whole neighborhood is aware that my dog will bite if one of us is not present to stop him. We've never had a real break-in, thankfully (our neighbors have not been so lucky), but we've tested it a number of times with brave friends who were willing to see what would happen. My doors stay locked, but I certainly sleep a lot better knowing that no intruder is going to get past the point of entry. 

I find it funny sometimes that I researched Great Danes for their family dog attributes, never dreaming that one could be so good at protection.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Well, we know now dogs aren't a deterrent for window breaking. Someone broke our living window while we ran out to get coffee. Gone all of 5 minutes. The window is covered in foamy drool and Sham was all up in arms, so at least he didn't go THROUGH it after them. We have home owner's insurance so no big deal, but I take solace in the fact if it was high school kids pants were likely soiled when that formidable looking brute hit the window.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Hahaha yeah someone tried to break into my truck one time at Walmart & the window was half down, Izze reached out the window... Well more like launches her head out of it & grabbed the guys had off his head & preceded to shred it... Needless to say he ran off lol, my windows were tinted so I don't think he could see in.


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## PyrettaBlaze (Nov 2, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> Hahaha yeah someone tried to break into my truck one time at Walmart & the window was half down, Izze reached out the window... Well more like launches her head out of it & grabbed the guys had off his head & preceded to shred it... Needless to say he ran off lol, my windows were tinted so I don't think he could see in.


Hahaha! Harley did that to a guy once at Wal-mart (apparently that's the place to go to break into vehicles). He had stuck his arm through the partially down window to unlock the door and Harley came from the back of the Durago and got the guy's jacket sleeve. He was gone when I came out, but Harley still had the sleeve from his jacket!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

She was a good dog  (she is my avatar, a good friend drew her for me) she was the embodiment of "friend partner, defender" I miss her  still.


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## PyrettaBlaze (Nov 2, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> She was a good dog  (she is my avatar, a good friend drew her for me) she was the embodiment of "friend partner, defender" I miss her  still.


Oh goodness. I am so sorry. Your avatar pic is beautiful. I know that pain all to well. For me that was Merlin. I still have his pictures on my computer desk and I cry when I think of him.

His last photo:



At 8 weeks old:


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I would expect no less from a dog named Harley, and a special hurrah for Izze.


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## PyrettaBlaze (Nov 2, 2012)

wvasko said:


> I would expect no less from a dog named Harley, and a special hurrah for Izze.


HaHaHa! Actually Harley is short for Harley Quinn (as in a harlequin dane). It's misleading though either way because it's spelled like the motorcycle and he's not a true harlequin, he's a merlequin.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

PyrettaBlaze said:


> HaHaHa! Actually Harley is short for Harley Quinn (as in a harlequin dane). It's misleading though either way because it's spelled like the motorcycle and he's not a true harlequin, he's a merlequin.


That's fine but we will keep the name as a "need to know" and the bad guys do not need to know the name particulars.


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## Teds-slave (Nov 14, 2012)

My parents two Jack Russells would go crazy if someone unknown came into the house, we have regular visitors and a large family, but anyone strange sets them both off, I'm not sure they'd actually bite though


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I think it's a dog thing to be protective over their masters stuff IMHO


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

My dog is a Leonberger, weighs around 175 pounds. I honestly don't know what he would do to an intruder. He loves everyone -- his affection is scary for the non dog lover, and never barks. For certain, he would not have been protective when he was younger (under 4), but now he is 5 and a half, it is possible that he would help us to protect the house. I can't imagine him standing to the side while my husband or I grappled with an intruder. He wouldn't run in fear for sure, its not his nature -- unless the attacker was a vacuum cleaner! Its just he never meet anyone that wasn't showering affection on him.

Hopefully we never find out.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> He wouldn't run in fear for sure, its not his nature -- unless the attacker was a vacuum cleaner!


Mind-boggling, the good news is not many attackers do so with vacuum cleaners


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## PyrettaBlaze (Nov 2, 2012)

HeHeHe A vacuum cleaner would just bring Harley running toward them. I use the furniture attachment on him to get the loose hair when I brush him. He loves it!


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

All of my dogs would bark and probably keep barking. I would hope that would be enough to stop them. I don't think I would want my dogs to go for an intruder...here is a link about a dog that did just that http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/troopers-german-shepherd-defends-home-from-intrude/nTCmP/

***Please note that this dog has been put to sleep..the injuries were just to much...May he rest in peace***


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> I think it's a dog thing to be protective over their masters stuff IMHO


Cubby, the ginormous black lab I talk about all the time, was a generally easy-going guy, and not the least bit protective about our house. We made arrangements for a neighbor friend to come feed him and let him outside while we were gone for a long day. Our friend let himself in with the key we gave him and heard a menacing growl. (Our friend is not a dog person, but he and Cubby got along fine.) He was about to let himself back out, when he discovered that the menacing growl was actually Cubby snoring.

The van was another matter altogether. If something happened to the van, how would he get to the dogpark? He guarded it with a ferocity that was sometimes embarrassing.


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## jvee86 (Feb 23, 2012)

I am late to this thread...My lab is a sweetheart but still will bark as soon as someone starts touching the doorknob, and he will fly down the stairs. Even though he will lick the intruder, I think that a barking dog is enough reason to move along to the next house for a break in. Why risk dealing with a dog when there are a ton of homes without that would be easier!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

My dogs just let a total stranger drive right up to the gate this morning (he worked for the county electric company & he wanted to know something about our power lines or something ) Yumi barked but then his like a coward ... All the other dogs greeted him like he was an old friend ... I'm starting to think I need a guard dog to warn me.

One day I hope to be able to welcome a cane corso in our home


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

My dogs just let a total stranger drive right up to the gate this morning (he worked for the county electric company & he wanted to know something about our power lines or something ) Yumi barked but then his like a coward ... All the other dogs greeted him like he was an old friend ... I'm starting to think I need a guard dog to warn me.

One day I hope to be able to welcome a cane corso in our home


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I believe that cane corsos have large tongues, also


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I bought a rifle this weekend. Hopefully my dogs aren't necessary for home protection anymore.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have 2 plus a 357 magnum I don't expect a dog to be the sole since of defense only like an early warning system.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> I have 2 plus a 357 magnum I don't expect a dog to be the sole since of defense only like an early warning system.


And if your not home when someone breaks in?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Well I am not going to list all the firearms I have.... I think somewhere on this thread I listed the rooms in my house that had firearms.....

I am not going to get caught un aware........

On Sunday Merlin hit a decoy that happens to be a member of a local police swat team. He did three long bites, knocking the decoy to the ground two out of three times..... 

Three hours later he took Best of Breed for the 24th time at a dog show.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

luvmyfurballs said:


> And if your not home when someone breaks in?


Well if your not home you can crate dog so dog does not come to harm (hope it doesn't) Any stuff stolen is insurance problem. 

Good job Merlin on bite work, Best of Breed is getting to be a habit.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Well if your not home you can crate dog so dog does not come to harm (hope it doesn't) Any stuff stolen is insurance problem..


Exactly.

Years ago, I knew someone who had an Akita and was feeling pretty confident about home security - right up until he came home to find the dog dead and the house ransacked.

I'd rather have a dog that will alert me if there's an intruder in the house and then get out of the way so I can do what I would do (and probably not discuss on an Internet forum.) if nobody is home and there's a break-in, my preference would be for the dogs to find someplace to hide. I have excellent insurance.

It becomes problematic if my wife is home and I'm not. I would probably want Esther to go into full Rambo mode. My wife knows how to lock the solid core interior doors and use a cell phone, and the police are six blocks away, so she would just need somebody to buy her a bit of time. Esther could do that, but it certainly isn't what we got her for.

Anyway, expecting a dog to respond as we'd like her to respond, in every conceivable situation, is asking for a lot without extensive professional training.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Years ago, I knew someone who had an Akita and was feeling pretty confident about home security - right up until he came home to find the dog dead and the house ransacked.


Yes, and nowadays with the savagery in the world even a dog in a crate may sometimes be killed for kicks. I was watching History channel and they stated that Genghis Khan had possibly killed 40,000,000 people. Not trying to compare but the human animal indeed is a beast in disguise.


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