# APBT people - "reversed blue brindle"? Colours?



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Browsing the web today, waiting for my e-mail to come about my collars I came across the term: reversed blue brindle.

Now I found it on a very iffy breeders site who I won't name, but these dogs were definitely hippopotamus' compared to a lean APBT.

Is this the correct term? 

I know APBT's can come in any colour, as colour wasn't important in breeding, but is it an APBT colour?

Or did it come from something else? So any reversed blue brindle, would not in fact be a pure bred?

The reason I'm asking is Hades father, who I've always called a; Dusty brindle , LMAO, I could never think of another way to explain it, seems to be this colour IMO. A picture:










Also while I'm on the topic of APBT colours, what would you say Hades is?

In some lights he would appear to be a red/orange, and others he seems to be a plain brown and white. Opinions?


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I don't know what its really called, but no its not a true breed color...


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Brindle is just brindle whatever color. People tack "reverse" on it when its the opposite of what they think it should be. Say they think dark with light stripes is (regular) brindle. They will call light with dark stripes reverse brindle. And vice versa as I've seen it both ways. "reverse" is just used to describe the brindle, not an actual recognized term. Its like saying clean stripe, splotchy or diffused stripes. Just used as a description.
I've had anything from red, chocolate, buckskin, black, gray, brown, ect, ect brindle. 

Not sure what you mean by "pure bred". Brindle is a pattern that can be essentially any color. So no matter what color brindle the dog is there isn't a way to know if its pure bred or mixed with another breed that produces brindle.

I see "reverse blue brindle" thrown around a lot, sometimes not even near accurately. Like its a type instead of a color. 

Hades sire looks blue brindle to me, I can see that he appears to have a dark rich blue pigmented nose and graying/silver around the muzzle. His coat appears to be fawn and blue. 

I always thought Hades was red brindle red nose. I'm sure it appears that way in some of the other pics posted, at least to me. 

Brindle can come out in an array of different pattern/color depending on the genes the pup gets. Some litters of brindles I've seen not a one looked alike and they had both red and black noses. All different shades and colors.


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## all4thedogs (Sep 25, 2006)

The first dog appears to be a blue brindle. In order to a true blue brindle dog, it can not have any black on it at all. Blue is a dilute of black and if the dog is actually blue will not show any black (including nose leather, pads etc). 

For the dog to be a reverse blue brindle it would have to appear that the dog has a blue coat with gold/fawn stripes instead of a gold coat with blue stripes. The dog pictured is a brindle, not a reverse brindle. 

I cant help you with Hades coloring, sorry!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

all4thedogs said:


> The first dog appears to be a blue brindle. In order to a true blue brindle dog, it can not have any black on it at all. Blue is a dilute of black and if the dog is actually blue will not show any black (including nose leather, pads etc).
> 
> For the dog to be a reverse blue brindle it would have to appear that the dog has a blue coat with gold/fawn stripes instead of a gold coat with blue stripes. The dog pictured is a brindle, not a reverse brindle.
> 
> I cant help you with Hades coloring, sorry!


Wouldn't that be the opposite though. Now I'm getting confused. In APBTs there is no recognized color term for registration that is called reverse whatever brindle. But you are saying if the coat is blue with gold stripes it is a reverse blue brindle? But the main coat color is blue. You are to list the predominant color first and then brindle. Just like black brindle, it is a dog that is black with brown or lighter stripes. If it were the other way around people would call it "reverse brindle" or brown brindle. Chocolate brindle is chocolate with lighter stripes. A dog that is light with chocolate stripes would be what most would call reverse chocolate brindle, not the other way around. Registering the dog might be brown brindle or light chocolate brindle. Maybe it is different from breed to breed, like in Danes maybe it is the opposite of APBTs.

Since this dogs base coat is lighter one might chose to register him as Blue Fawn Brindle or Fawn Brindle Bluies instead of blue brindle.

This reminds me I made a page of brindle pit bull colors.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I'd love to see it Spicy!

Thanks for all the replies!

I find out of all breeds I've ever looked into about colouring, APBT's seem to be the most confusing.

What I meant by "purebred" Spicy, was just that I know some colourings come from certain breeds, and I wasn't sure if the term "blue brindle" had come from mixing say APBT's with some other type of Bully breed and that was "known" in the APBT.

So the consensus is that "blue brindles" are a colour of APBT's? I know most reputable pages I've read on APBT's say that any colour is acceptable because colour was not important. I was told by my vet and an Amstaff owner that Hades couldn't get a PEN number because of his colouring. Apparently Amstaff's do not come in his colour.

I had always kept it to myself, but there were times where it was clear to me that Hades had some type of "brindling", but it's just not as obvious as in some reds I've seen. I had just usually called him a brown/white if anyone asked. Mostly because in certain lights you can't see the two toned reds/browns and sometimes even super light brown colouring. The light, light brown is mainly on his sides and belly. Would the light light brown, just be fawn? Possibly from his sire?

If anyone has any good sites on colouring or APBT I'd love it if you could share 

I'm trying to look into Hades confirmation as well, specifically how straight he is in the hock. I read something about it being a trait in the "Dibo" line, but I haven't found any luck finding any more info than that on it.

Thanks again!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I never knew what brindle meant  Hade's father is very handsome.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I'd love to see it Spicy!
> 
> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> ...


Blue is an acceptable color in the APBT so they are considered purebred. Brindle is a striped like pattern of 2 colors. Brindle can be seen in any color, since APBTs can produce brindles there is no way to say they are only going to produce a certain shade/color brindle. For example we can't say red brindle is purebred but blue brindle isn't, it wouldn't make sense. 



> So the consensus is that "blue brindles" are a colour of APBT's? I know most reputable pages I've read on APBT's say that any colour is acceptable because colour was not important. I was told by my vet and an Amstaff owner that Hades couldn't get a PEN number because of his colouring. Apparently Amstaff's do not come in his colour.


Yes brindle is an APBT color, whether it is blue, red, black, brown, buckskin. Reverse is just a term added in describing the color by some people. Merle is not an acceptable color in APBTs. It depends on which standard you read though as blue/gray are not acceptable in NKC. I believe ConKC accepts merles as does APBR which isn't surprising. AST have stricture color guidelines however AST *do* come in brindle so maybe they were referring to his red nose, liver/dudley nose is a fault in AST. That is the only thing I can think. Other colors frowned upon in AST is tan point and 80-100%. What is a PEN number? 



> I had always kept it to myself, but there were times where it was clear to me that Hades had some type of "brindling", but it's just not as obvious as in some reds I've seen. I had just usually called him a brown/white if anyone asked. Mostly because in certain lights you can't see the two toned reds/browns and sometimes even super light brown colouring. The light, light brown is mainly on his sides and belly. Would the light light brown, just be fawn? Possibly from his sire?


He looks red brindle to me. I can't see if he is fawn or not. It could be tan or buckskin. He could be any number of colors with the red. His brindle is kind of faint and mushed together when I see it in the pics but I could see it clean enough in the others. In this one its less obvious. So its hard to see. 



> If anyone has any good sites on colouring or APBT I'd love it if you could share
> 
> I'm trying to look into Hades confirmation as well, specifically how straight he is in the hock. I read something about it being a trait in the "Dibo" line, but I haven't found any luck finding any more info than that on it.
> 
> Thanks again!


You can do a google search for APBT colors. Some sites are better then others. I know one that has a fawn red nose listed as a champagne. Since color names vary by registry you might see a dog of the same color labeling as different colors depending on the site. My page doesn't have blue brindle. I can dig the links up though.

I've only seen him from the side which is harder to judge hocks then from the back. They look straight as far as I can tell, not cow hocked or bow hocked. He does have conformation faults in the rear though. Almost complete lack of rear angulation, straight stifles. Any APBT bloodline producing dogs with good conformation will have straight hocks, even those who don't depending on the faults. Dibo was the foundation for many different lines so that doesn't really help. If you want to look at his conformation to compare to bloodlines, such as say back end I don't really think that will get you too far. Considering Dibo's offspring, Alligator, Wildsides, Boudreaux, Frisco, Paladin, Bolio/Tombstone and other lines have such faults. There are far too many lines with faults like that or even individual dogs. Then you have to consider that the sire is blue. Not something normally seen in game lines. Maybe he is a mix of a few lines? He did produce a red nose dog so he was obviously carrying those genes too. Where did you get him, from the person that bred him? Do you have a way of finding out any background info.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

That's exactly what I meant, his stifle/hocks, there is basically no angulation, so he's "straight in the back".

I read on one page that sometimes it's called being "double jointed", and it is seen, but of course it's a fault, because their back end doesn't have the "springy-ness" that a well angulated hock would have.

A PEN number is a "Performance Event Number" from the CKC. It's so a "purebred" dog can compete in obedience for CKC. I know the AKC allows dogs that are dual registered as APBT's with the UKC to also be registered as Amstaffs, as long as the AKC registration is listed first. So I had thought I could get a PEN for Hades as an Amstaff with the CKC as APBT's are also not a recognized breed with the CKC.

But, perhaps that what she meant his nose. She had mentioned something about liver being a recognized colour (as in coat, not the nose) in Amstaffs, but Hades was not a liver.

As for where I got him, it's a long story. Short story is from a BYB.

The man had thought that if he bred a litter right before the breed ban went into effect he would make a lot of money. Hades was born August 8, the ban went into effect September I believe. Anyways, I had ended up taking Caine from the man, (not knowing that he had been bred to the man's other bitch) to find him a home where someone could care for him.

He went to my bf's mother, out of province so he wouldn't be bothered by BSL when it went into effect. Anyways, when we returned from our trip to drop Caine off, imagine our surprise when we went to visit our friend and the man had puppies in a closet! A friend of ours was living in a boarding type style house. 

There were 7 pups in the litter, 3 of which have been euthanized so I've heard. I took two, Hades and Mercedes, who are both obviously doing fine.

The dam was plain black and white. Very tiny, lean thing. Couldn't have weighed more than 40lbs before she was pregnant.

I have no idea where the man is now, or if I could get any information on where Caine and the bitch came from. I doubt this man would even speak to me if he saw me after some harsh words between us when I found out three of the puppies had been euthanized. Not to mention the original, "theft" of the puppies...

I doubt that he's from any spectacular line of dogs, but I am interested in learning more about his confirmation and how he fits to standard.


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

Hades looks like a red to me.I don't see any brindling on him tho...


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

709 - In some lights you can see it and some lights for some reason you can't.

It's not "brindle" as in his father, where it's very obvious, it's a red/orange kind of brindling. Not two obvious different colours, like black and fawn.

I'll see if I can find a pic of him where you can see it better.

After close inspection of Hades coat I have an idea. lol.

He has very light brown coloured hairs, for the sake of giving them a name, I'll say their buckskin, and these reddy brown hairs. Each hair is a solid colour. They are mixed all throughout his body. You can see them really well up close because my camera flash really catches the light coloured hairs, which is what I think detracts from the third colour, which I'll say is a darker reddy brown than his normal colouring.

Up close: This is from his back, his sides of more of the light colour, so when I zoom in so you can see the hairs, all you can see is flash-shine.










Another one, full body. It seems that when I zoom out, and make the picture smaller I can see it better. You can see some darker stripes on his hind end, and coming down his sides in this shot. It seems that the flash shine on his sides and shoulders takes the colour away... there is a "camera" word for this but I can't figure out.










Regardless, I was just wondering technically what colour Hades would be. It doesn't really change how I feel about him... Or maybe it does  LMAO


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

709Juggalette said:


> Hades looks like a red to me.I don't see any brindling on him tho...


It is not easy to see. Red brindles are probably the "worse" about it, since it often tends to fade and many times the 2 colors are close to the same. But they are still brindle just the same since the genes don't change. 
Can you spot the red brindles.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Spicy1_VV said:


> It is not easy to see. Red brindles are probably the "worse" about it, since it often tends to fade and many times the 2 colors are close to the same. But they are still brindle just the same since the genes don't change.
> Can you spot the red brindles.


Lets see, I'd hazard to say the 1st and 4th ones are brindles. Though the 4th one would have to be rather light...


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Alpha said:


> That's exactly what I meant, his stifle/hocks, there is basically no angulation, so he's "straight in the back".
> 
> I read on one page that sometimes it's called being "double jointed", and it is seen, but of course it's a fault, because their back end doesn't have the "springy-ness" that a well angulated hock would have.


Oh ok. Yes straight in the rear. I had one which was also double jointed, it was kind of freaky. He was a heavy Jeep bred dog with quite a bit of Rascal too.



> A PEN number is a "Performance Event Number" from the CKC. It's so a "purebred" dog can compete in obedience for CKC. I know the AKC allows dogs that are dual registered as APBT's with the UKC to also be registered as Amstaffs, as long as the AKC registration is listed first. So I had thought I could get a PEN for Hades as an Amstaff with the CKC as APBT's are also not a recognized breed with the CKC.
> 
> But, perhaps that what she meant his nose. She had mentioned something about liver being a recognized colour (as in coat, not the nose) in Amstaffs, but Hades was not a liver.


Oh I see. Yeah like the thing AKC has. You can get one of those for purebred dogs for the events in AKC. AKC doesn't allow APBTs to be dual registered as AST. They are a close register and the stud books are closed the the APBT. You can register an AKC AST with the UKC or ADBA as an APBT, but not the reverse. For the limited registration I think you could get a number for them as AST because they don't even have to have papers at all, its just to perform but they do have to look purebred. I'm pretty sure UKC and ADBA would also except CanKC too. 

That is weird that they wouldn't let him. Being that it is just a fault and its only for performance/obedience or whatever. Liver (coat color) is also frowned about along with tan point and white, but it is acceptable. 



> As for where I got him, it's a long story. Short story is from a BYB.
> 
> The man had thought that if he bred a litter right before the breed ban went into effect he would make a lot of money. Hades was born August 8, the ban went into effect September I believe. Anyways, I had ended up taking Caine from the man, (not knowing that he had been bred to the man's other bitch) to find him a home where someone could care for him.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a crazy ride. That is sad that the 3 were PTS. For just no reason or what? I think I remember you mentioning one called Mercedes before. Who knows what lines he could be from though, might be some neat dogs he's down from but just no way to find out. I'd say he certainly from a few different lines and probably not line bred on anything but you never know what might be in there. I think he's cute no matter what. His sire has a pretty face too.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I don't know the details as to why the puppies were PTS... I imagine they were caught running around one too many times, or the idiot owners were being foolish in public with them. Who knows.

Whatever the reason, it's clearly due to irresponsible ownership, because Hades and Mercedes made it just fine.

Your right on though Spicy! His colour that difficults to see is just a shade darker then the normal reddy brown throughout his body. But out in the sun, it's very noticeable. He shimmers a golden almost and you can see the darker striping.

As for the CKC, I had spoken with them on the phone about it, and with the breed ban here in Ontario, the woman's reply was: We do not allow anything with the term "pitbull" in the ring... LOL. I think she thought I had made up American Pitbull Terrier to try and squeeze through  LOL

Out of those four it would seem that the first one is definitely a brindle.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

i know im a bit late on this, but all i can give is my 2 cents on the brindle thing. i actually have a reverse brindle, or onyx brindle dane. its actually i believe a genetic...well i was going to call it a genetic deformaty, but thats not right lol. i cant think of the right words right now, but its wrong! lol. since danes are only supposed to be tan with black stripes. shes black with tan stripes though, and i know with danes its called reverse or onyx brindle.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> i know im a bit late on this, but all i can give is my 2 cents on the brindle thing. i actually have a reverse brindle, or onyx brindle dane. its actually i believe a genetic...well i was going to call it a genetic deformaty, but thats not right lol. i cant think of the right words right now, but its wrong! lol. since danes are only supposed to be tan with black stripes. shes black with tan stripes though, and i know with danes its called reverse or onyx brindle.


Is mismark what you were looking for? That it is undesirable in Danes. In APBTs we call it a black brindle. So it seems across the board reverse brindle is used to describe brindle that is opposite of the norm or accepted. Such as danes it should be tan/black so black/tan is reverse. In other breeds it is black/tan so tan/black would be reverse. 

Oh do you have any pictures of her you can post? Do you post pics in the gallery section. How big is she? Is that enough questions about her?. I love brindle dogs as you can tell. My friends dane is brindle and he is huge, he can sling slime on you from a mile away...ok j/k lol but it seems like it.

EDIT
Here is my friends beautiful black brindle female.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I've never seen a brindle dane I don't think. I've seen the "harlequin" variety and a tonne of fawns but never a brindle...

So yes, post pics! LOL

Spicy - A few years ago I would've thought that was the only brindle colour out there, the black brindles. I had never seen any other kind other than that. Caine was the first brindle that wasn't black that I had ever seen.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I've never seen a brindle dane I don't think. I've seen the "harlequin" variety and a tonne of fawns but never a brindle...
> 
> So yes, post pics! LOL
> 
> Spicy - A few years ago I would've thought that was the only brindle colour out there, the black brindles. I had never seen any other kind other than that. Caine was the first brindle that wasn't black that I had ever seen.


The last Danes I saw at the show were brindle. I like them the best, duh like no one guessed that. 

Black brindle for real. Some places brindle isn't popular so maybe that is why. Since blue didn't used to be seen hardly at all until bybs I doubt too many have seen blue brindle. 

Well this is a trippy seal brindle. You could see the brindle in the summer when she was out a lot. 








Here you will notice some of the seal showing. I'd have to find some other pics, but you could see the brindle in her face, on her chest and legs too. It was so weird, you'd have to look close and you'd notice these dark faint brindle markings in her black/seal coat.


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

In the post with the dogs...I am guessing that #1,#3 and maybe #4 are brindle.It is hard to tell,as they are so light.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Alpha can I use the picture of his dad for example of blue brindle?


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Of course. I don't think I have any nicer ones.

For the month or so that we had Caine, I didn't have a digital camera. That picture was taken when he came up to visit about a year ago...

I'll see if I can find any better, but yep, you can definitely use that pic.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

thanks i'll put it up there right now, i'll pm you the link


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

*Red Brindle the answer is. All 4 are brindles*

#1 While the first one you can see some of it at that time, if you're looking very close, other times she looks like the dog in pic #2. She won't appear to have any stripes or they won't be easily seen. My friend was happy when we noticed her stripes "coming back".

#2 You could see when she was a pup. As she got older less and less. 









#3 While you could never see her stripes she was certainly a brindle. When she was very young like 3 months some very faint brindle could be seen, most on her legs. Then it faded forever. After that she just looked solid red.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

#4 Is a bit harder to see. She has some darker stripes that sometimes are visible and other times are not. 








You can see some of the darker here








Here you see nothing








Here if you look at her side and legs you will see some


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## Rebelyna (Oct 5, 2013)

Not the best pic but I've been told this APBT pup is a reverse blue brindle. She belongs to my friend.


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## IwannaDoberman (Feb 24, 2016)

Although APBT and other "Pittbulls" aren't my "favored" breed, I saw your posts and prior to seeing your own post, I had been doing little research which ended up on those "Rhinoceros' " dogs you mentioned in your first post. By the way, your dog's sire is beautiful, I've always admired brindles and merles in any breed.

I saw those gross looking dogs when I was looking up reverse blue brindle for a color reference. It was for someone I am doing digital art for and she has a UKC registered Bullie. On it's papers it says reverse blue brindle. Her dog appears mostly blue, in fact hardly any light color, and my original impression was that perhaps she mixed up or misunderstood her dog's papers and was reading it as brindle blue as in a regular sable or fawn brindle bluenose pitt. 

My research, however, shows that the terminology is becoming more integrated, especially in the UKC. Her dog is a bluenose, but it is also a blue brindle with fawn or sable stripes. All her dog's skin is blue including nose leather and pads except the marking on it's chest. I guess on some dogs, the only way to know for sure is to shave a section and see the actual skin stripes. If I remember right (My memory may be wrong) isn't the skin a tell-tale sure sign of brindle even if the outward color appears almost solid like those red brindles shown? 

The site you saw is most definitely a backyard breeder and if not, I'm not sure how they are getting anything in the show ring. I think they are all fake awards and titles. A few of them even say CH before them as if with those short little legs and very clear English bulldog style short legged bodies could be Champion APBT dogs. Argh, and a $1000 stud fee per dog with 5 males on site. I was also turned off completely by the ears which have been hacked off. You can see the irregular line on the ears, not clean as if done by a vet. My guess is the owner does it as puppies with no anesthesia or bandages. My impression of their dogs too short choppy ears is why even cut the already small cute ears, they must be fighting their "less than perfect" dogs.

From what I saw before I left the page disgusted by all that muscle mass that shouldn't be there, I saw a lot of deformities as well, and very short legs. I just won't go into how long some of those dogs toenails are. This breeder is calling them "Pocket Pittbulls" I'm sure they have bred with English bulldogs somewhere but not claimed it on the "pedigrees" but only a genetic blood test would show the English.

Thanks for all this information on brindles though, it helped me understand how to go about making the brindle in my artwork.

For what it's worth in my uneducated color knowledge, the image of just a square shot of fur on your dog make me think of rabbits where the fur shaft has 2 or 3 colors on it such as seal color or castor color. When the fur is blown on, it shows clear rings of color, not separate hair colors (as in one hair red, one hair blue). When the animal is just sitting, the fur appears multiple colored. 

Have a nice day.

IWannaDoberman


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

This thread is 8 years old, I'm pretty sure the OP has long since had their question answered, they certainly haven't been active on the forum in the last 8 years.


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