# Dog SIT command.. What am I doing wrong?



## polly_31 (Apr 27, 2013)

Hi all,

I have a new puppy which is 9 weeks old and try to teach her the SIT command as outlined on some pages on the web - Take a treat and move it above her head while saying her name and SIT, which should bring her into a sit position.

It kind of works, but with the following issues:

Either she sits down already before I say her name and SIT or
if I dont show her the food and say SIT she looks around as if she doesnt know what is expected from her - Looks like asap she sees food she is now sitting down without me saying anything

As we do it today for the 3rd day (2x 5 minutes in the morning and evening) I wonder if it makes sense also to teach her the STAND command. That way she would not automatically SIT asap she sees food?
Is there any chance I confuse her by teaching two commands at the same time or do you know a better way to teach her SIT?

Regards,
Chris


----------



## Gogoclips (Apr 27, 2013)

Say "sit" everytime she sits so that she associates the word to the action. Slowly replace the treat with a praise word or clicker. So that her reward is not just the treat. Also, I've seen this work with some dogs. Hold their collar/leash until it is a little tight and say sit. Wait until the dog sits then release tension on leash and praise. You can also move this exercise to a corner so you are standing over her and she will have no choice but to sit.


----------



## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

polly_31 said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have a new puppy which is 9 weeks old and try to teach her the SIT command as outlined on some pages on the web - Take a treat and move it above her head while saying her name and SIT, which should bring her into a sit position.
> 
> ...


That's a good thing. "Capture" that behavior by saying "good SIT", clicking, and rewarding as soon as that happens.






polly_31 said:


> or
> if I dont show her the food and say SIT she looks around as if she doesnt know what is expected from her - Looks like asap she sees food she is now sitting down without me saying anything


She's very young and at this point in her development she's not quite grasping the difference between a reward and a lure. That will come in time as her mental abilities mature. I wouldn't worry about it and I would not be fading the lure yet.



polly_31 said:


> As we do it today for the 3rd day (2x 5 minutes in the morning and evening) I wonder if it makes sense also to teach her the STAND command. That way she would not automatically SIT asap she sees food?
> Is there any chance I confuse her by teaching two commands at the same time or do you know a better way to teach her SIT?
> 
> Regards,
> Chris


I wouldn't teach the stand position yet - it's generally the hardest one to get correct. I WOULD start teaching the "down" position, however. That's generally a lot easier for a very young puppy. 

You're not doing anything wrong as far as I can tell, you just need to have more patience. Your puppy is still very young..

Teaching two "positions" now will not confuse her but I would wait a bit to do any more than that. You should start working on your LLW now. And I assume you are working on her housetraining as well. Two "positions", housetraining, and LLW is about enough teaching for a 9-week old.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Roman learned the "sit" trick from my DD on the looong 7 plus hours car ride home.
(DD sits with him at the back hatch with a back seat flat so Roman kinda join-in to the back seat from the trunk (SUV).

We don't use a clicker (I have one for Pepper my cat) because we also decided that what if we ever forget that clicker one day... hence it doesn't suit our lifestyle (not to say you shouldn't use it). In fact, in place of clickers we "click" with our vocals to mark (attention to me) then trick practised. Now Roman actually will look at us ("good" eye contact not "death stare" challenging eye contacts) to observe what we want.

Practice "good eye contact" I think is quite important as you need the dog to pay attention to *you* not the environment or other things he might find interesting.

Roman sits for everything since the first day.
But... he did learn the trick for 7 + hours (more if you count the food and rest stops) straight.

Roman sit!




























First day coming home!!!


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I have a video actually that shows how I taught Toby to sit.
Rather then hold a treat over his head, I held my hand, flat out, palm facing down over his head and said "Toby, Sit" - when he sat, he got rewarded with "Good boy! Good sit!" and a treat. Every time. His treats to start were just bits of kibble (sensitive stomach) but as he got older we've been able to treat using biscuits and such. 

I thought the video was made public on my blog page but I only have this one, I'll see if I can put the others up.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151203113030636&set=vb.472820206079049&type=3&theater

edit: I do however have this video of my cat doing her tricks 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=391316384276647&set=vb.472820206079049&type=3&theater

edit2: Heres the video of him learning lay down, I guess i didnt take one of him learning sit.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10151199158095636&set=vb.517870635&type=3&theater


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> We don't use a clicker (I have one for Pepper my cat) because we also decided that what if we ever forget that clicker one day... hence it doesn't suit our lifestyle (not to say you shouldn't use it). In fact, in place of clickers we "click" with our vocals to mark (attention to me) then trick practised. Now Roman actually will look at us ("good" eye contact not "death stare" challenging eye contacts) to observe what we want.


It is a common misconception that if you use a clicker then you need the clicker to come with you all the time for the dog to listen. It is simply NOT TRUE. The click is not the command, the command is sit. The click is a marker letting the dog know it's about to get a reward. It comes AFTER the behavior, not before. The click is more consistent and very clear to the dog in my experience. So because of that it is helpful when you are first teaching the dog something. It cuts down on confusion because a lot of people (me included) have a tendency to babble while they train so a distinct non-human sound doesn't blend in so much with the human voice.

Most people who 'clicker train' have a marker word that they use in addition to the clicker. I use a sharp, clear, excited 'yes!' for my dogs. So I generally train a brand new behavior and start puppies with just the clicker. Then I will both click and say 'yes!'. If I need to train something and I have no clicker, then it's just the yes!

Anyways, I agree with Poly. Capture that sit that she's offering! She sounds like a delightful little puppy.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

^^^Agreed. 
Instead of a clicker... we just click with the tongue as said in prior post.

We also says "yeah!!!" when the treat is given (as a marking for the "feel good" condition)...
I read about "yes" but being that humans use "yes" so much on other things... I try to differ the "yeah" more for Roman.

I am really trying to teach Roman to try and understand us... maybe even communicate with us like Pepper do (she vocalized "Myeah" for feeding time "in the morning" and "MeeOUT!" to be let out.... Now adays, both she and Roman rings the bell to be let out.... very funny to see.).
One day... one day my boy will talk.... lol!!!


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree with Poly, but with some different perspectives. Your pup thinks that sitting will get her a treat. It takes a little while for a puppy to understand that words have meanings, and that each word has a different meaning. 

You can teach Stand or Down at the same time, which ever is easier with your pup. Understand that she IS going to be confused. It's a common part of the initial training process. So, you will want to be prepared to focus on one cue (rewarding correct behavior and ignoring incorrect behavior) and then during a different training session focus on the other cue. Later, try alternating cues in the same training session and if she doesn't get it, then go back and reinforce training in the separate sessions again.

It used to take us a few months to do this. With new understanding and new methods, new owners can do this in a week or two. Expert trainers, like Dr. Ian Dunbar, can train 4 different behaviors in just a few minutes... Most of us are Not Ian Dunbar 


@hueyeats - Huskies talk. My dog can read. I don't see why your dog won't talk


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

hanksimon said:


> .....
> 
> @hueyeats - Huskies talk. My dog can read. I don't see why your dog won't talk


Hehehehhh.. you are right. Roman reads by observing the body language of what we want... talks by directing me to where he wants me to go with his soft mouthing & pulling in the direction. 
He does not bark much.. likes whining more.

My gf's dog actually "talk" back... grumbles when she got scolded... very funny sound.


----------



## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

Are you using a hand signal as well? Dogs communicate in body language, so they usually pick it up more quickly. 

You should also only start saying the command when you're willing to bet a hundred bucks that she'll do it. So if you practice clicking and rewarding for a sit (you can start to use hand signals once she starts sitting continually) and you know she's gonna plop down in front of you, that's when you name the behavior.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

blenderpie said:


> Are you using a hand signal as well? Dogs communicate in body language, so they usually pick it up more quickly.
> 
> You should also only start saying the command when you're willing to bet a hundred bucks that she'll do it. So if you practice clicking and rewarding for a sit (you can start to use hand signals once she starts sitting continually) and you know she's gonna plop down in front of you, that's when you name the behavior.


I do. Great training method.
Now we just gesture and Roman do what we want.
We do silent training sessions too many times now.

Why I say Roman actually observes to read what we want.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

you dont want to say "good sit" once your dog has sat. the word "sit" is a command your confusing the dog if you do. because it cant sit any more than it is so your making the word irrelevant if you do. if you say sit as its sitting it will ascociate the word as mentioned but if its been sitting for a couple seconds and all its realy doing at that point is begging for the treat saying good sit just shows the dog that sit didnt mean to do anything. saying good is fine but you dont want to repeat the command if the dog cannot do the action you are asking for.


----------



## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

sharpei said:


> you dont want to say "good sit" once your dog has sat. the word "sit" is a command your confusing the dog if you do. because it cant sit any more than it is so your making the word irrelevant if you do. if you say sit as its sitting it will ascociate the word as mentioned but if its been sitting for a couple seconds and all its realy doing at that point is begging for the treat saying good sit just shows the dog that sit didnt mean to do anything. saying good is fine but you dont want to repeat the command if the dog cannot do the action you are asking for.


Actually, if you are 'capturing' an *offered, i.e., volunteered* behavior and haven't yet trained it with a cue or a signal, that is exactly what you would do. Because if the behavior was volunteered, you obviously didn't give any cue beforehand. Of course, it would be better if you gave the praise WHILE the dog was offering the behavior, but that often requires almost superhuman observational skills, especially if the behavior is offered outside of a regular training session. 

After you have trained the behavior on cue and/or signal, you can STILL praise in the same way for *voluntarily offered* behavior if you want to. That's up to you. It won't confuse the dog either way because he's already been trained on cue. .

However, if you are training and _if the behavior was cued or signaled_, then I agree you never repeat the cue word during the praise. Even after the dog is completely trained to do a behavior on cue, I would still avoid repeating the cue word during the praise for a correct cued or signaled behavior. 

Some trainers do make a bright-line distinction between "capture training" and "free shaping" by indicating that the former is an unplanned event that just happens, while the latter is 'planned training'. I wouldn't make that distinction, especially if you are dealing with a WPF dog. With them, you almost have to be "training-aware" in some sense all the time.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Poly said:


> Actually, if you are 'capturing' an *offered, i.e., volunteered* behavior and haven't yet trained it with a cue or a signal, that is exactly what you would do. Because if the behavior was volunteered, you obviously didn't give any cue beforehand. Of course, it would be better if you gave the praise WHILE the dog was offering the behavior, but that often requires almost superhuman observational skills, especially if the behavior is offered outside of a regular training session.


I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, which is fine everyone is a little different. but reading your reply I think you may be slightly misunderstanding what I was saying. let me try to clarify a bit. If your trying to catch a behaviour to teach it, which I love by the way, its one of my favorite methods and your dog sits. it is fine to say sit to associate the word to the action it works well. I generally try to anticipate and say it as they are in the motion of sitting but saying it once they have sat works too. but once your dog is sat and has been for several seconds its focus is lost on the previous "action" which is what we are trying to capture, the action of "sit". If your dog has been sat for* several seconds* (this is where I think we crossed wires) and is now thinking about licking its backside or scratching behind its ear, it may think it is getting praised for the action it is initiating even if it hasn't started yet so it can train up faster on the action if you don't use the word when it can be onto its next thought or action. I'm not talking mass confusion where your dog will never learn sit if you say it. I'm just implying that if you say the word in the beginning or immediately as the action is complete it stands a better chance of being correctly interpreted by the dog. re-reading my own post I definitely could have phrased it better and been a little more clear on what I was trying to say. 

I am always in "training mode" because I take every opportunity to reward behaviors I like from my dogs. some times people ask why my dogs are so well behaved because no matter where I am or what I am doing if my dog is doing something I like or is considered well mannered I reward them here and there. like if we are in a "new" friends house after my dogs initial excitement and exploratory behavior if they sit without command I will jack pot them, or if they lay down or ANY other behavior that is great even if all they are doing is standing quietly by my side. I jack pot them because they learn even in new unusual distracting circumstances "behaving" pays well. I do the same thing at home too. I try to never miss an opportunity to either reward a good behaviour or teach a new one accidental as it may be. Like the Other night we went to a friends to watch a movie and brought one of our dogs. they have a Semi-feral cat they are fostering the cat is starting to explore the house but very unsure around dogs and humans. our dog rounded the corner and came nose to nose with the cat. the cat hissed and flattened its ears and my dog just layed down, did not advance or try to sniff the cat. I clicked and rewarded right away. by the end of the movie the cat was approaching my dog to sniff and then darting away. so something that could have made the cat more nervous actually helped me "catch" my dog being great, and helped the cat adjust to dogs a little.

If I can I want to Quote Patricia mc connel. from her book the other end of the leash. "if sit means, Put your butt down on the ground" and you want your dog to do that every time you say it, what could your dog make of hearing sit after he has already done so? I know your dog is smart but expecting him to read your mind about when "sit" means DO something versus when it means "dont do anything: I'm reffering to something they have already done, is a bit much, even for the smartest of dogs, rearranging the order of words is a grammatical change, and asking your dog to understand the rules of human grammar is asking for the moon."


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

What I did with Kris, was when she sat, I clicked and treated but did not say anything. After a few times, I would catch her standing and say SIT and click and treat when she did it. I did the same with the down but have had a little problem with her wanting to down if I do not treat her right away for sitting when I ask her to. If she goes down before I have a chance to click or treat, I ignore her and walk away. I do not know if this is the right thing to do or not. She has not quite figured out to come back up into a sit from the down yet.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I also like training by capture, but I set it up for success by teaching repeated behaviors that I can predict: Teach a dog to Sit (after putting him a boring situation), teaching him to Down, by making him more bored, teaching to shake with left paw, by ignoring an offered Right paw, teaching to bow on cue by capturing a stretch, and teaching to drink "on cue" by capture [but you can lead a dog to water ...  ].

And, I have a counter-example to Tricia's quote - If I tell my dog to Sit (after he understands it) while he is sitting, or I ask him to drink, when he's already slaked, then he will like his lips, giving a Calming Signal that I interpret as "Huh?"

I believe that 'pure' behaviorism is the Gold standard for initial training. But, as a dog starts to learn - varying with each dog and experience - I believe that Cognitive methods may be more appropriate. Dogs may not understand grammar, but they do work based on patterns, and their perceived 'rules' ... so a puppy can learn to associate a cue and 'guess' the meaning. For an extreme example look up the border collies, Rico and Chaser, and fast mapping.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

hanksimon said:


> I also like training by capture, but I set it up for success by teaching repeated behaviors that I can predict: Teach a dog to Sit (after putting him a boring situation), teaching him to Down, by making him more bored, teaching to shake with left paw, by ignoring an offered Right paw, teaching to bow on cue by capturing a stretch, and teaching to drink "on cue" by capture [but you can lead a dog to water ...  ].


 thats pretty much how I Capture, when they do something I want I click/reward it. next time they do it I do it again, fairly quickly, the dog is very predictably doing that behavior over and over so I can say the command as they begin the action, so the timing is as close as possible to make easy association. I'm not saying dogs cant learn other ways. I'm just saying that In my experience, and opinion, it seems to work best to get the que as close to the front of the action your teaching as possible increases the speed in which the dog can catch on to it because it makes it easier for the dog to understand that the word means "perform the action" not be in this position.

If your saying sit when your dog is already sat and not moving away from the sit is'nt that really a "stay" even if its 4 seconds thats a 4 second stay not a sit. Know what I mean?


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> If she goes down before I have a chance to click or treat, I ignore her and walk away. I do not know if this is the right thing to do or not. She has not quite figured out to come back up into a sit from the down yet.


In my opinion if you asked for a sit and she goes "down" before you mark the "sit" then you are correct in not rewarding because you didnt ask for a down. one reason dogs do that is usually a "down" is directly after a sit because its easier to get a down if they are in a sit. so the dog is trying to predict that your going to ask for a down. 

I will point out that is an opportunity for you to teach "back into sit from down" because usually if a dog is in down and you give the sit command they don't come back up into a sit, it seems they understand sit as go partway to the ground but once all the way they feel they have that command completed and then some LOL. so you lure then from the down back into the sit, and put a command on it, like "return" or I usually use "attention" because its like your dog coming to attention in a drill or formation. sort of like sit from a distance usually once a dog learns sit if he is standing ten feet away from you if you say sit does he/she sit where they are? not in my experience they usually walk over to you and sit in front of you so training sit at a distance takes some work to because dogs seem to have very exact thoughts on what a command means and it doesn't always match what we seem to think it means to us.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> What I did with Kris, was when she sat, I clicked and treated but did not say anything. After a few times, I would catch her standing and say SIT and click and treat when she did it. I did the same with the down but have had a little problem with her wanting to down if I do not treat her right away for sitting when I ask her to. If she goes down before I have a chance to click or treat, I ignore her and walk away. I do not know if this is the right thing to do or not. She has not quite figured out to come back up into a sit from the down yet.


How do you differentiate the signals if everything is a wordless click and treat???

With Roman... 
A hand swipe towards the back between the ears signify sit.
A finger pointing down with treat low to his paws and nose as directive = down.
Stay is a stop hand motion... etc.

All "siggies" very different so even when wordless he is not confused.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> How do you desperate the signals if everything is a wordless click and treat???
> 
> With Roman...
> A hand swipe towards the back between the ears signify sit.
> ...


You use the wordless sit and treat just to get them repeating it. I agree its easier to teach with a signal and lure most times but some dogs just wont lure into position. so you "catch" them sitting and reward it. when they repeat you do it again until they are doing it over and over like they think they are sitting on the clicker button then you can add whatever ques you want visual is fastest in my experience but you can go straight to vocal if you dont like hand signals.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

You missed my point.
How many tricks is applied to a singular action of click and treat???
I can't even differentiate between a click and treat for sit / down / shake... when everything is click and treat without different commands or signals. KWIM???


----------



## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

sharpei said:


> ... once your dog is sat and has been for several seconds its focus is lost on the previous "action" which is what we are trying to capture, the action of "sit"....
> 
> If I can I want to Quote Patricia mc connel. from her book the other end of the leash. "if sit means, Put your butt down on the ground" and you want your dog to do that every time you say it, what could your dog make of hearing sit after he has already done so? I know your dog is smart but expecting him to read your mind about when "sit" means DO something versus when it means "dont do anything: I'm reffering to something they have already done, is a bit much, even for the smartest of dogs, rearranging the order of words is a grammatical change, and asking your dog to understand the rules of human grammar is asking for the moon."


Thanks for your response. 

I think you are being a bit too pessimistic about a dog's memory. Your dog's associative memory is longer than a few seconds in most cases, especially if the context hasn't changed. If your dog is still paying close attention to you, he is probably still remembering what he has just done, even after several seconds have passed.

If you are free shaping, and you are ready to add the cue, no doubt the closer you can get to issuing the cue simultaneously with a behavior, the better you will do. In fact, if you could actually _precede_ the desired behavior with a cue, that would obviously be best. That's almost automatically part of the process in regular shaping. But it really requires excellent timing and observation if you are going to do it in a free shaping approach. However, believe me, you can get very good results without being quite so excellent.

If you are capturing volunteered behavior, you have to be somewhat flexible and make use of all your dog's capabilities. So long as you stay generally within those capabilities, you shouldn't insist on the same training parameters that you do in regular shaping. 

If you feel you must always insist on those parameters, perhaps free shaping or capturing might not be the best approaches for you. But then, what would you do with a WPF dog?

I know what Patricia McConnell's approach was all about back in the day. She was very much into fairly strict regular shaping with luring in those days - not free shaping. It's not surprising that she would express things along the lines that would fit in most with the approach she was using at that time. I don't have a problem with regular shaping and luring for dog's that can handle that kind of training. But there are other ways to go about it in cases where that doesn't work.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Poly said:


> If your dog is still paying close attention to you, he is probably still remembering what he has just done, even after several seconds have passed.


 If your dog is paying super close attention to you he probably isn't going to sit for free capturing. he will be semi-focused at best and sitting because he is bored, tired, wanting a more comfortable position, thats the point of Free shaping the dog is doing whatever it wants freely and you catch it. his mind is already not focused on you like your indicating. Any how it doesn't matter really, I Have expressed my opinions and you have your own. I definitely agree that they CAN learn it that way. I just feel it goes quicker the way I have mentioned that's all. I don't want you to think I am saying that a different method is wrong. I just don't agree with saying a command once the dog is finished the action because in my experience it doesn't improve learning the behavior as quickly as saying during or at initiation. Any how I am going to see if I can "free shape" a sandwich into existence I am peckish.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I so automatically use hand signals that I just never mentioned it. I have a hand signal for Sit, Down, Stay, Stand, Come, etc. As soon as the dog knows what sit means, I also use a hand signal and the same for everything else including sitting from a Down position. The click and treat are so the dog knows immediately that they have done what you wanted and is phased out pretty quickly. (not the treat but the clicker)


----------

