# My first dog ever 1month old treeing walker coonhound



## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

HI all I just joined up to ask for some help / advice

I just got a 1 month old treeing walker coonhound and I am having a very difficult time becoming "alpha" or "Pack leader" to her. I have been reading countless articals and visiting dog training sites as well as watching movies on the subject and I cant seem to get much to work. I would be able to hang in with the training more if I didnt feel she resented me for it. 

First Ill start with what I do based on what I have read. followed by her reaction

I go through all doors first. she fights me to the death on this although it may not be her trying to be pack leader as much as shes such a small puppy that anything distracts her.

I put her food down and block her by simply placing my arms in her way untill she becomes passive and then she is aloud to eat. For this one she just wont clam down and all. She crys at the top of her lungs and howls and starts going crazy flailing her body everywhere. Eventually she sits down and burrys her face and crys at which point I consider it passive enough to allow he access to her dinner.

I remain calm and collective even while disciplining her as to simulate a natural pack leader. she simply ignores my existence entirely.

When she goes to the bathroom in the house I put her nose "in it" so to speak (not literary in it just above it) and poke her neck gently while making a tssst noise (I hear they will associate this with bad behavior using this method) I also make this noise for her biting me to hard and It always makes her stop

I offer her treats during training sessions but she seems to not want anything but meals. No snacking

Ok now on to my point: I THINK MY PUPPY HATES ME FOR ALL OF THIS

She avoids me when ever possible and when we sit on the couch she runs to my girlfriends lap and looks at me with really sad eyes as if to say I love her more. My girlfriend never trains feeds or walks the dog so this must just be to spite me. What do I do I just want her to be happy and love me


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

Kozar927 said:


> HI all I just joined up to ask for some help / advice
> 
> I just got a 1 month old treeing walker coonhound and I am having a very difficult time becoming "alpha" or "Pack leader" to her. I have been reading countless articals and visiting dog training sites as well as watching movies on the subject and I cant seem to get much to work. I would be able to hang in with the training more if I didnt feel she resented me for it.
> 
> ...


My responses are in bold. 

Where did you get this puppy?


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

a one month old IS TOO YOUNG for most of this! This little baby just needs to bond with you and feel safe with you and learn to TRUST YOU. None of the above engenders trust in a pup that is TOO YOUNG to be away from her litter! That is why she is running to your GF! Loving kindness before punishment/she is too young too understand the "training" that you are doing! SHE IS A BABY.PLS you seem to like dogs, backtrack a bit-- a pup is a baby! They mouth/ bite/ pee everywhere and run every where... Its like a little 2 year old child right now! Keep us updated!!


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

at month month old I would be VERY surprised if she is even able to eat solid kibble food, Puppies should still be nursing from their mother (with softened kibble supplement) at that age. Right now your goal is ONLY to keep this puppy alive!!


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

thanks for all your feedback guys. How come about every video I have watched or artical I have read talks about being alpha or pack leader? If its not true why did my vet tell me about it also? So what should I do from this point on how should I correct bad behavior? How should I become her master. Just tell me what to do because everyone in the world is telling me to do different things and im confused as im sure the dog must be with me constantly changing training methods. BTW she is 6 and a half weeks. a little more then 1 month


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

The vet told me to give her hard food with some water. He also told me the food blocking is a very good idea.

Im just a dog lover confused by all the mixed messages


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## AConklin03 (Feb 28, 2012)

Vets do not know everything. They know how to handle medical situations, it does not mean that they know the appropriate way to TRAIN a dog. There are many different styles of training, so you will see different recommendations and all conflicting one another. You need to choose a style and stick with it. I'd also recommend positive reinforcement, rather than punishment...especially with a pup that age. Even 6.5 weeks is WAY too young to be away from their mother and other pups!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Are you going to hunt with her?


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

AConklin03 said:


> Vets do not know everything. They know how to handle medical situations, it does not mean that they know the appropriate way to TRAIN a dog. There are many different styles of training, so you will see different recommendations and all conflicting one another. You need to choose a style and stick with it. I'd also recommend positive reinforcement, rather than punishment...especially with a pup that age. Even 6.5 weeks is WAY too young to be away from their mother and other pups!


Ok I didn't know any of this we got her from a farm and she seems very happy and carefree here. I live with my girlfriend and I know it sound selfish but I always wanted to be a number 1 to a dog so I try to push my gf into the background as much as possible but shes walking her right now. What do you guys recommend day to day life to be like with the puppy right now so she sees me as her best friend / master Ill even take a schedule with time specific activities. Im not lazy and im willing to do anything for the puppy to grow up seeing me as her master



juliemule said:


> Are you going to hunt with her?


Nope im not a hunter but I will give her all the out door exercise this breed requires


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## AConklin03 (Feb 28, 2012)

A dog is going to trust the person who is calm with them and who treats them nicely in my experience. If that is your girlfriend, that's who she is going to turn to and be closer to.

Personally I think that if there is more than one person living in the house, that they all need to make sure that the dog comes to them and listens to them, etc. I wouldn't recommend "pushing your girlfriend into the background as much as possible" since she's living in that home with you. She's that dog's "master" just as much as you are, in my opinion. If you create a situation where the dog only obeys you it's going to make for serious issues whenever you are not home. My dad did that inadvertently with one of their dogs and the dog does not listen to anyone else living in that house. He is ridiculously out of control unless my dad is home. I would NOT recommend creating a situation in which a dog is only taught to obey one person, it's just asking for trouble and I don't see the point in it anyway..

I don't have much advice on the whole "master" thing personally, because that's not how I treat my dogs. I treat my dogs as if they're members of the family and they get rewarded for good behavior and that allows them to understand what is expected of them and they therefore behave. Dogs WANT to please, they don't need to be punished in order to do it...they just have to understand what you want, and you therefore have to teach them in a way they understand.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Research the breed, many hounds, especially **** hounds are not near as biddable as other breeds. They are made to hunt Aline, or in a pack, far away from the handler. They don't always care to please you. 

I would get "master" out of your head. Do fun things with your pup, teach obedience slowly, when she is a little older. Just keep in mind, there is a reason you don't see many hounds winning top obedience titles lol. 

The potty training, take her out constantly until she gets the idea. Before she has to go, take her out, praise, repeat until she learns. Its all about timing with any type of training.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Well first off, the people who told you 4 weeks is alright to take a puppy home have stupidity issues and really should be slapped. This puppy is not WEANED. 6 Weeks is when real food can _easily_ come into play, and then an extra 3-6 weeks for everything else a baby needs to learn. 8 weeks should really be the bare minimum for a puppy. 
You can be number one to a dog if it respects you, and right now all your puppy knows is that you're being mean to it (in the puppy's eyes) and not letting it eat, and it's probably staying hungry because, again, it's not even wean. This is a little hound puppy, not a wolf. Dogs are not wolves, and won't respond to many of the things a wolf would. 
When it comes to 'food blocking' that's mainly for dogs (not tini little puppies) who have a problem with impulse control. When you're calm, you get the food. 
And when it comes to potty training, a firm 'no' then immediately taking the puppy out to potty will do. You have a baby, and this baby is going to have accidents. This baby cannot control when it has to potty and has no idea that using the bathroom inside is wrong. 
Again, you will only be number one if your puppy respects you, and respect must be earned, not forced. There's a difference between fear and respect and it's a fine line that's often crossed when it comes to dogs. Be kind and patient with your puppy, have fun with your puppy. Then as it gets older you can really start training, but like I said, right now you have a baby on your hands.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Some resources for you:

http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads
Read Before and After Getting a Puppy by Ian Dunbar, available for free at the link above

http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup?ob=4&feature=results_main
Kikopup's positive reinforcement training for free on youtube

Great books to read when you finish the free stuff:
The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnel
Puppy Primer by Patricia McConnel
The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldsen
Bones Would Rain From the Sky by Suzanne Clothier

anything by Ian Dunbar or Karen Pryor are great as well.


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

juliemule said:


> Research the breed, many hounds, especially **** hounds are not near as biddable as other breeds. They are made to hunt Aline, or in a pack, far away from the handler. They don't always care to please you.
> 
> I would get "master" out of your head. Do fun things with your pup, teach obedience slowly, when she is a little older. Just keep in mind, there is a reason you don't see many hounds winning top obedience titles lol.
> 
> The potty training, take her out constantly until she gets the idea. Before she has to go, take her out, praise, repeat until she learns. Its all about timing with any type of training.


Many websites I have read on treeing walkers says otherwise. It says the love to please their master and can become very obedient if trained right.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Pretty much any dog can be very obedient if trained right, some are just easier to train (more biddable) by nature.

House training sticky for you: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/3048-housetraining-how.html


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Yes any dog can be trained. Some are harder to train than others. Just as some breeds are generally not good off lead. Each breed has differences. Hounds are not one I would normally not trust off lead. Some can be trained, but usually not as easily as other breeds.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Kozar927 said:


> Many websites I have read on treeing walkers says otherwise. It says the love to please their master and can become very obedient if trained right.


Most breeds within the hound group typically have strong food drives / play drives / prey drives, which lends them very well to positive reinforcement-style training methods (using food treats and toys etc as rewards for good behaviour), as long as you learn the right strings to pull, and learn how to properly manipulate and harness these inherent drives to your best advantage. Conversely, most hounds are also very soft by nature, which means that they usually don't respond well to harsh or corrective training methods.

Therefore, "loving to please" and "training right" as you say, would most likely require that you adhere, tenaciously, to these basic principles. 

I strongly recommend reading Pat Miller's book, *The Power of Positive Dog Training.*


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

Kozar927 said:


> thanks for all your feedback guys. How come about every video I have watched or artical I have read talks about being alpha or pack leader? If its not true why did my vet tell me about it also? So what should I do from this point on how should I correct bad behavior? How should I become her master. Just tell me what to do because everyone in the world is telling me to do different things and im confused as im sure the dog must be with me constantly changing training methods. BTW she is 6 and a half weeks. a little more then 1 month


Find a new vet that doesn't use intimidation for training
See if pup can go back with litter mates for another month
Use the next month finding a certified pet trainer using positive reinforcement methods. Www.ccpdt.org
Keep in mind, at a month old they are still such an baby, be patient, be kind.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

ok first try not to learn training from a tv show.

what treats do you use? coonhounds gen are very food motivated. use treats, to get obedience w/o conflict. Im not saying at some point other methods may not be nec. but its the place too start for sure. 
watch some kikopup or zakgeorge vids on youtube on the basics 




BTW my TW coonhound likes affection on her terms.


even if you are a fan of "the dog whisperer" realize that he is working with problem dogs. Not little puppies.


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## Vicky88 (Jan 29, 2012)

You should not put her nose in her buisness, if she does go in the house you just pick/clean up whatever she did, and not saying anything or even look at her, when she goes outside, you fuss her and tell her how much of a good girl she is, and maybe give her a treat too, and as for the food thing, Holly is made to sit, then i put her bowl down, then she waits a few seconds, then i push her bowl towards her which means she can eat.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The methods that you're describing were used in the 1960s. We have much better methods based on science, which everyone has suggested for you. The stuff you've read was by Cesar Millan. Instead, search for Ian Dunbar... Dunbar is both a Vet and a scientist. Cesar has tried to learn from Dunbar's methods, because Dunbar has been training dogs for longer than Cesar has been alive. Some of the things that your girlfriend does, are similar to the methods that Dunbar teaches people to use with their dogs. YOU get a much better dog that will bond with you, when you use Dunbar's methods.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> The methods that you're describing were used in the 1960s. We have much better methods based on science, which everyone has suggested for you. The stuff you've read was by Cesar Millan. Instead, search for Ian Dunbar... Dunbar is both a Vet and a scientist. Cesar has tried to learn from Dunbar's methods, because Dunbar has been training dogs for longer than Cesar has been alive. Some of the things that your girlfriend does, are similar to the methods that Dunbar teaches people to use with their dogs. YOU get a much better dog that will bond with you, when you use Dunbar's methods.


This this this this this times ten!
You've admitted that this is your first dog and you don't know much. I commend you for doing some research and finding this forum. Definitely read as much as you possibly can.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

What is it that Cesar Millan says on his show? "These techniques should never be tried at home"? Take his advice


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

I have never seen his show I was going off videos of his seminars which are defiantly intended for people to do at home. Its just him speaking to a crowd about dog training for their pets. Not that I believe everything he has said I have research many peoples opinions including what was linked to me here and I believe to have found a nice middle ground that incorporates the best of everyone opinions

What do you guys recommend for biting? because I know shes just a pup and means nothing by it but it really does hurt and it makes it very hard to play with her when their is a risk of her going for my face with those needle teeth. I just say NO BITING! and tap her nose very softly. any better methods?


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/8377-bite-stops-here.html


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

Definitely read the bite stops here. She is too young to really know what she is doing right now though.


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## Eden & Mason (Mar 23, 2012)

Our bluetick (another coonhound) puppy was quite "mouthy" between 2 and 3 months but has since grown out of it (with us teaching him this is not ok). Try giving her something she can chew on when she is getting mouthy with you (or someone or something else). Distracting our puppy with his 'chewies' seemed to really help, when I do catch him now chewing on the couch or an off limits item, I give him a firm "No" and he goes and finds one of his many toys and chews on those and gets a 'good boy!'. 

My mother-in-law (also the breeder) suggested to me when he was first brought home to put your hand over his face (above his eyes) and 'drag' it down to his nose while saying no, hardly any force at all just the motion really.

Back to your original post, our nine year old was a dream to train (according to my husband) and does really well off leash in the field, even called her off a deer a few times. This new one is proving to be a little more of a challenge but is already responding well to training. We've had a relapse in potty training lately but he's getting there!


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> And when it comes to potty training, a firm 'no' then immediately taking the puppy out to potty will do. You have a baby, and this baby is going to have accidents. This baby cannot control when it has to potty and has no idea that using the bathroom inside is wrong.


I find it's more like "oh crap!! NONONONONONO!!" *grab pup and leash and run for door* (outside) "goooooooood dog"


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

Ok guys I just had a really weird expirence with her

Wha does it mean when you call her she comes to you and looks at you with really sad puppy dog eyes as she pees w/o squatting all over her leg while staring at me?
I have been way easier on her since reading everything here and haven't been aggressive with potty accidents at all? is she afraid because she sure looked like it but she did come to me. she looked so guilty as she did it. it was heartbreaking. I have never seen her go w/o squatting before

EDIT: if it changes anything I was preparing her dinner. could she just have been super excited lol


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

It could be that she was just really excited, or it could be that the techniques you were using before have made her frightened enough to start submissive urinating when she anticipates that you will use threatening behavior, as you did in the past before feeding her. Submissive urination is a behavior that dogs use to avoid confrontation and violence when they are frightened, essentially communicating that they are not a threat so that the aggressor will not hurt them. It was involuntary. She couldn't help it. So punishment is totally inappropriate and would only make it more likely to happen again. It's not a housetraining issue. The best response is to ignore it if it happens again. Don't scold.

About regular housetraining, don't even say "no!" when you see her getting ready to go inside. Just interrupt her and take her outside. You seriously need to backpedal immediately, and establish trust before it's too late. This puppy is terrified, and you have set her up for all kinds of future behavioral problems. Your "nice middle ground that incorporates the best of everyone opinions" is not good enough.



> What do you guys recommend for biting? because I know shes just a pup and means nothing by it but it really does hurt and it makes it very hard to play with her when their is a risk of her going for my face with those needle teeth. I just say NO BITING! and tap her nose very softly. any better methods?


She doesn't speak english. And tapping her nose is going to either make her more mouthy because she thinks its a game, or frighten her. Both are bad.

Here's a link to Ian Dunbar's free downloads. He is one of many, many behaviorists that uses positive methods in raising and training dogs, and has the science to back it up. He's getting recommended here because he's made this stuff available for free online, but if you ask for book recommendations people will give you more authors to check out. His book, "Before and After you get your puppy" is online for free in two parts at the above link. Also scroll down and check out the "Behavior Blueprints" section, which has a puppy biting article.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

Also stop raising your voice with her. Different puppies might respond differently, but she is sensitive and frightened. You need to start using a calm, quiet, clear, speaking tone with her.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Hambonez said:


> I find it's more like "oh crap!! NONONONONONO!!" *grab pup and leash and run for door* (outside) "goooooooood dog"


This is true.


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

Ok this is getting rediciculus all you people do is tell me everything isnt good enough. I was looking for a helpful forum but you guys are so condescending. Im off to find a place where people dont assume / judge me so harshly. really... telling me what im doing just isnt good enough. I have been working so hard and now im at the point where Im spoiling the dog rotten b/c of what you people say with your guilt. I havnt disciplined her once in any way since my first post here and you still say im not good enough. and btw most people do believe in the alpha and pack leader training methods. maby not eveyone but most people I have encountered in real life as well as the net have told me its the way to go.
You people have turned me off asking for help from others for ever. I just find my own god damn path. peace


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Kozar927 said:


> I was looking for a helpful forum but you guys are so condescending.


Negatory, captain. 
You came here asking for advice, and you got it. You've got a domestic pup that isn't even weaned and that you're treating like a wolf. 
Everyone here was just trying to help you. 
Truth hurts, I guess. lol


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> Negatory, captain.
> You came here asking for advice, and you got it. You've got a domestic pup that isn't even weaned and that you're treating like a wolf.
> Everyone here was just trying to help you.
> Truth hurts, I guess. lol


Explain how when I stopped doing everything I was doing per all your advice I was still told im wrong. You guys are just bullies who dont care about helping a nervous first timer in a kind way

I was just doing what the rest of the world tole me I needed to be doing to raise my dog. So I come here and you guys say no thats wrong. So I say ok ill listen and try to be better even tho you guys are the ones telling me the opposite of the rest of the world I heard you out and followed all your advice because you seemed to genuinely care about dogs. So when I try to change how im doing things based on your advice im still told its not good enough. Im very confused by all the mixed messages im getting on the subject of puppie raising but ill say one thing. Noone has said it to me as mean or pretentious as you guys. so why would your advice be what I follow. Im going to listen to all the kind and helpfull people that told me to be alpha or pack leader for best dog training resaults


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Where has anyone said you're not good enough?
You either have it in your head how you want to raise your dog, and don't care what we have to say, or you're ignoring all this advice and getting offended.
Nobody here is being mean to you. You're being told the truth and being given helpful advice. What we say will not spoil your puppy, but it will land you with a happy dog that respects you in the future. 
So, I'll say it again. Your puppy isn't even old enough to be away from it's mother. You can't expect it to train like a normal dog. Blocking it's food, yelling at it, AGAIN, treating it like it's a wolf will not earn you it's respect. It will fear you -as it probably already does, even though this was never your intention- and will continue to fear you if you treat it this way. 
If you are actually doing as we advised, good. But you are asking questions, and we're answering you. Just because it isn't what you want to hear does not mean we're not trying to genuinely help. Nobody is riding a highhorse. We're just handing out advice.


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> Where has anyone said you're not good enough?
> You either have it in your head how you want to raise your dog, and don't care what we have to say, or you're ignoring all this advice and getting offended.
> Nobody here is being mean to you. You're being told the truth and being given helpful advice. What we say will not spoil your puppy, but it will land you with a happy dog that respects you in the future.
> So, I'll say it again. Your puppy isn't even old enough to be away from it's mother. You can't expect it to train like a normal dog. Blocking it's food, yelling at it, AGAIN, treating it like it's a wolf will not earn you it's respect. It will fear you -as it probably already does, even though this was never your intention- and will continue to fear you if you treat it this way.
> If you are actually doing as we advised, good. But you are asking questions, and we're answering you. Just because it isn't what you want to hear does not mean we're not trying to genuinely help. Nobody is riding a highhorse. We're just handing out advice.


And what part of me having stopped doing all that did you not catch. see this is what I mean you guys refuse to acknowledge what I say. I must of said it like 10 times. but you all keep insisting im doing that stuff


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Kozar927 said:


> And what part of me having stopped doing all that did you not catch.


Lol. I caught it. As did everyone else. What's being said though is that the things you DID are most likely STILL affecting her. 
"NO BITING!" is an indicator that you are raising your voice to her. It's the punctuation and way it's written that displays you are yelling. It's easy to assume you're saying it the way you're writing it.


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## Kozar927 (Mar 21, 2012)

I say it sternly but calmly and with an unraised voice. This is what I mean. I have never seen anyone in rl that dosnt correct bad behavior like this. Are you really trying to tell me this is a complete disapline free relationship
This all just sounds so hippy liberal newage to me. No offence, but why dont I see anyone raise a dog without disapline and they all have amazing loving dogs. My neighbor who has the dogs parents used alpha/pack leader training and their coonhounds are so loving and affectionate. surly their is something to that as well as what your saying.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Kozar927 said:


> I say it sternly but calmly and with an unraised voice.


Then you should have stated you don't yell at it. 



> This all just sounds so hippy liberal newage to me.


I do not even know what to say to this.



> No offence, but why dont I see anyone raise a dog without disapline


Nobody is saying don't control your dog. But, YET AGAIN, you have a puppy that doesn't understand, and won't begin to understand for a while. Yes, be firm but you don't have to physically correct everything she does.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Kozar927 said:


> I say it sternly but calmly and with an unraised voice. This is what I mean. I have never seen anyone in rl that dosnt correct bad behavior like this. Are you really trying to tell me this is a complete disapline free relationship
> This all just sounds so hippy liberal newage to me. No offence, but why dont I see anyone raise a dog without disapline and they all have amazing loving dogs. My neighbor who has the dogs parents used alpha/pack leader training and their coonhounds are so loving and affectionate. surly their is something to that as well as what your saying.


I don't know if this is the case, but please remember that there is a difference between loving and doing what they're told to out of fear. We had an ex hunting rescue dog that would do a down stay EVERY time you raised your hand as if you were going to hit her. Did she "obey"? yes. Did she "behave"? yes. Did it produce a behavior that was somewhat desirable? yes. The difference is that she was conditioned to respond out of fear. Her obeying had nothing to do with a good relationship with her owner.

The fact that you're asking for advice is a good thing. And it sucks to feel like you're doing something wrong, but its a GOOD thing that you're asking for advice. And that's all it is- if you decide to go the alpha dominance route, that's your decision. Just be aware that it might create more problems in the long run than it solves.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

If you can, try to get past your ruffled feathers and just absorb the message that you're getting. People are trying to help you and your puppy. If the "alpha" approach you were using before was working for you, you wouldn't have come here to make a thread about your puppy being frightened of you. Reread your first post if you don't understand what I mean. Your puppy is/was terrified of you. That was just four days ago. Rebuilding a relationship with her is going to take time.

And no one here will ever tell you that a discipline-free relationship is good. It's not. There are ways to have rules and train your dog (once she's older) that don't involve fear, like Rescued pointed out. People are trying to give you the tools to see that another approach is possible.

And yes, caps with exclamation points is SHOUTING! like HollowHeaven said.


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## Rouen (Jan 18, 2011)

Kozar927 said:


> No offence, but why dont I see anyone raise a dog without disapline and they all have amazing loving dogs.


I dont use discipline. I prefer to prevent rather than confront after the fact. I suppose you dont have +R or progressive reinforcement role models because you associate with people who prefer out dated traditional methods. :doh::tape:





begemot said:


> And no one here will ever tell you that a discipline-free relationship is good..


I just did. :wink:


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

Rouen said:


> I dont use discipline. I prefer to prevent rather than confront after the fact. I suppose you dont have +R or progressive reinforcement role models because you associate with people who prefer out dated traditional methods. :doh::tape:


That's still discipline. To me, no discipline means letting your dogs do whatever they want. I use positive methods to reinforce rules, structure, and good behavior. I consider that discipline without punishment or "dominance" or violence. Just like I use self-discipline to get myself out of bed every morning when the alarm goes off, but I don't whack myself in the face for disobedience if I oversleep.


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## poo (Mar 25, 2012)

Very interesting thread this, i always believe training a dog is about establishing who is boss, or should i say leader of the pack, i learned this from a good website http://tiny.cc/0mambw and for once the info from an unknown author worked, my dog, cherie, is coming along very nicely, a few little hiccups but she is doing ok now, in fact she looks forward to further traing and rewards me with a big tail wag!!!


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## hargyle (Mar 21, 2012)

An article that helped me understand the difference between dominance and leadership - just reading through everything, think of instead of "master" be the Leader. It changed my outlook on alot of things with my puppy 

http://k9domain.org/alpha_theory.aspx


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Kozar927, if you are still here: I think it's GREAT that you have changed what you are doing. 

I have to say, comparatively speaking, people giving advice to you have been pretty well mannered. And, no one *ever* says anything to offend, but, rather, to help the dog first, and the owner second.
I understand you've changed, yay. But, if people remember another piece of advice, or if they think of another way to say it that might convince you better, they'll likely add it on, even if you say you've already changed, partly because you don't sound like you're completely convinced about what we're saying.

That said: the alpha/dominance thing was popular at one time. There are people who STILL believe in it. That doesn't make it right. It just means that some folks were introduced to that method, and then never found out what the flaws were, and why other people, a LOT of other people, moved past it.

The theory was based on a study of wolves. The wolves were supposed to be "in the wild". One of the flaws with the study was that the wolves were NOT in the wild, they were in captivity. And, animals in captivity behave differently. There were other flaws with the study, and the authors of the study have since admitted that they mislead people and made several mistakes. 
So, the theory has been proven false. However, some aspects of the theory have remained. 
By many of today's animal behaviorists and trainers, this is considered "old school" and outdated. 

So, you can choose to listen to people out in the "real world" who may or may not be aware of current studies, or the flaws in the original studies, or you can search for CURRENT information written by people who are well respected in the field. A good place to start is Dr. Ian Dunbar.

Please understand I am not a hippie; in real life I am a teacher, and a pretty conservative one at that. I believe in giving my dogs clear expectations and I guide and shape their behavior using positive methods, mostly. There are consequences if the don't behave according to my expectations, but I am NOT physical with them.

Many behavioral problems with puppies can be "cut off at the pass" or PREVENTING by close supervision and management. If you stop your puppy from doing something "bad" by interrupting her before she even gets to it, you are taking that "bad" option away from her. If you interrupt her (stop her before she starts) from chewing on the leg of the table (example) then after awhile she won't even consider it an option, because you distract her and give her something else to do. It's just about supervising and managing. 
Good luck in whatever you decide.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Re-directing worked way better than yelping with my coonhound (who was the biggest biter I have had). make the toys more interesting than your hands. try not to react to biting of hands/feet and re-direct. Yelping and ignoring results in a lot of ripped clothing with some pups.

Also exercise, if he's all wound up he will take out his excess energy on you.


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## beverley (Oct 7, 2010)

you have been a little harsh with her at the start but you can change that. you will have to start to gain her confidence all over again.
when she makes a mess in the house totally ignore it and just clean it up, when she messes outside praise her like hell and give her treats.
practice sit with her loads, and when she begins to get that apply it when putting her food down. she will cotton on pretty quick as puppy's love to learn and please.
as for mouthing, yelping loudly doesnt always work, it didnt with mine, i had to get up and leave the room taking the toys with me for a few seconds, and again she will learn this.
puppies are really hard work, you are gonna feel like your backside is attached to the back door with elastic! but it's worth it!


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