# Puppy training questions, NILIF?



## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

I got a few questions about puppy training and particularly about NILIF with puppies. I have a 7.5 week old GSD puppy and it's very young. Has no training yet other than teaching "come" and it works well seeing as how she wants to be around people all the time, she'll come to us any way. I'm starting on sit using treats but so far no connection has been made. I've had her less than a week but she is now comfortable in our home and playing, running around, etc. She doesn't cry at night which was a big surprise, even the very first night she was separated from her litter and parents. She did cry for about 10-15 minutes but then just went to sleep. Now, she will cry for a few minutes and whine whenever she wakes up and no one is there near her but it will be short. Which I am thankful for. I'm sure she'll get used to things with time. 

Now early can I start training her? I have read Ian Dunbar's materials and saw his DVD and have some knowledge behind the concept of using a clicker and also positive re enforcement but also there are things like establishing order in the house with basics and that's where NILIF comes in. 

Background: I adopted a 8 year old in bad shape a little over a year ago and with the help of members of this forum, someone suggested NILIF. The 8 year old rescue didn't respond to sit or any boundaries but after employing NILIF principles, it was a very easy and smooth transition within a matter of days. She quickly realized her place in the family and after that, it has been smooth sailing since. I don't even work on any obedience with her now, we just live. Especially now that she's older. Very very successful and happy. 


I wanted to know if 7.5 weeks or having a puppy for a few days so far is too early to start NILIF? A puppy brings out much compassion and affection and is pretty hard to bring out discipline. Even saying "no" for things like biting doesn't really seem to register with her because of her attention span. She is very stable temperament, not fearful of much and happy-go-lucky. She will just pounce around, chase us, roll around in the grass and play bite us and that's about it. She does know "come" to a certain degree. but I'm curious if her attention span is too little to start anything? What kind of resource can I even control with a puppy? 

With an adult rescue it's easy to know their limits and you know they have an adult attention span. With a puppy, she can barely focus on the treat in my hands and when she does, she slobbers all over the place trying to find it. Her senses are still very.. baby. 
How can I start training? What is the order some of you started off with that was successful? I don't dream on getting her to "stay" at this age. I'm working mostly on "come", "sit" and "look at me/attention" and things like very basic behavior skills. If I put a leash on her, she will play with it like a cat and lay down, roll and chew on it cause she's never had experience with a leash. So, she definitely can't be "walked" even a few feet. Potty training is in the works, and she is praised everytime I take her outside and say "Go potty" and she does. 

Any suggestions on what to start on and how to start it? I have seen youtube videos of 7 or 8 week old puppies and even 5 week old puppies that were training to be police K9s that had lots of focus and were able to do some amazing stuff. Before doing tricks or anything I'd like to be able to get her to behave and NILIF would be great. The biggest resource I control would be affection and play time but I don't know that she has the attention or mental ability to "do something" to earn play time. I just play with her whenever she is being quiet or when she wakes up from sleep and try to time it so it happens before she starts whining or crying so it's on my term and not hers. But that's about it. 

Any help appreciated.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Controlling resources in a kindly way, even with a 7.5 wk pup, is a not a bad plan provided your expectations are adjusted and set accordingly.

The first step would be to define what the resources actually are. This should be determined by your puppy, really. Some ideas to consider: water, food, treats, praise, petting and affection, access to the backyard, leash walks, access to certain areas of your home, car rides, toys, company, etc. In simple terms, whatever your dog might WANT at any particular moment. 

The second step would be for you to set your criteria for what behaviour gains access to these resources. For a young pup such as yours, I'd keep the criteria very low for the time being and limit it to general calmness and/or eye contact/attention. ie: look at me first, and then I'll open the door.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

You can start training with even the youngest puppies.

All of the things you're working on are good. I'd add impulse control to that. Hold a treat in your fist and let her try to get it. As soon as she turns her head away, click and treat (either throw the treat on the ground or give her one form your other hand). Progress to the treat on an open palm, treat on the floor, etc. You can put the cue "leave it" to this behavior. You can also practice impulse control with sits before she can come out of the crate, sit before you open the door to go out, etc (or just give attention, if her sit isn't solid yet). Don't expect too much at this age, but if you're consistent she'll start to get it. The focus will come as she gets older and as she figures out that working with you gets her good things. Try to stop training sessions before she gets antsy and bored so that she learns to want more. Lots of super short training sessions (just a couple seconds) are better than trying to do it all in one 10min session a day.

For the leash issue, use your focus training to get her attention. Try to pretend like the leash isn't there and call her to you as you walk around (in the house at first), treating when she walks next to you or redirects her focus to you. I also taught my pup to target my open hand and touch with his nose. Now on walks when he lays down in someone's yard and starts rolling around like a goof, I can redirect him to target my hand and he often snaps back to walk mode after he targets and gets a treat. Just don't expect to go anywhere quickly at first ;-)


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions. Eye contact/attention is good I guess, it teaches focus. Her main desire is to play and affection, wanting out of her pen area so I will work on "sit" or attention and eye contact before leaving the pen. It's not too bad cause she is so small she's already looking up at me. I'll definitely do a few seconds a day. I should have liver treats coming in the mail today. 

Regarding the leash, walking around isn't too much of a problem she'll follow me. But it's when I put her on the leash and sit on the grass and have her play and not wander too far away. Or leashing to myself around the house so accidents don't occur. She'll chew at the leash and play with it. not sure if it deserves a correction but even if I say no and take it out of her mouth, it continues over and over just cause the leash is right there in front of her face. Switching with a chew toy lasts maybe 1 second. Maybe she will grow out of it? Once she gets used to a leash in general.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Corrections are a no, especially with a little baby puppy. Where I live, your puppy would be too young to be sold by law. You don't need to use "no" or any corrections in training, other than removal of attention (ignoring) to teach the puppy not to jump on you, things like that. I'm just unsure where you got corrections from in reading Ian Dunbar.


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Amaryllis said:


> Corrections are a no, especially with a little baby puppy. Where I live, your puppy would be too young to be sold by law. You don't need to use "no" or any corrections in training, other than removal of attention (ignoring) to teach the puppy not to jump on you, things like that. I'm just unsure where you got corrections from in reading Ian Dunbar.


Never said I got corrections from Ian Dunbar, just said he's one of the few authors I have read. Corrections are a part of my training and it may not be screaming No, smacking the puppy or anything like that but I do want her to get used to the word No. No means disapproval and since dogs learn thru association, a No followed by me leaving the room per Ian Dunbar's isolation/timeout technique conditions her that No is negative consequence which results in me leaving. Same as a clicker or a Yes followed by praise or reward. 

You didnt present anything helpful at all. And where I live the puppy is sold at a perfect age thank you very much. if you read the scientific study on puppy development you would know that 7 weeks is actually the most optimal time to be separated from the litter and mother even though much of mainstream media touts 8 weeks. Actually it's been changed to 7-8 weeks now. And in that study it showed dogs who were 11 or 12 weeks when separated actually had more behavioral and separation anxiety issues than when separated earlier.


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## CritterPoor (Aug 4, 2011)

pancake said:


> You didnt present anything helpful at all. And where I live the puppy is sold at a perfect age thank you very much. if you read the scientific study on puppy development you would know that 7 weeks is actually the most optimal time to be separated from the litter and mother even though much of mainstream media touts 8 weeks. Actually it's been changed to 7-8 weeks now. And in that study it showed dogs who were 11 or 12 weeks when separated actually had more behavioral and separation anxiety issues than when separated earlier.


I am getting a puppy soon and am interested in reading this study. Could you send me a link for it or let me know what it was titled so I could find it myself?

thanks


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The study for 7 weeks originally came from research and books by Scott and Fuller. You might find it using Google, but the work is from the 1950s. More recent work, and I don't have a reference, recommends 9 - 10 weeks, especially if the pups are socialized with the human family et al. In fact, 12 weeks is terrific, if the pups get lots of human contact and some training. Some excellent breeders adopt out their puppies at 12 weeks.

Back to the original questions:
You're doing great, keep training her. Informally, I've found that you get a much better trained dog when you train them early, as you're doing. But, don't be concerned about her level of patience or response. It'll vary from pup to pup, and change every week, sometimes even backtracking. Be patient and try to learn when she's receptive, and pay attention to her Calming Signals for when it's too much. I strongly recommend that you really work with Come, b/c it's difficult to perfect, the pup may decide to explore when she's around 10 - 12 weeks, and you have an opportunity to continue reinforcing it for the next few weeks. Clicker training is good, but takes good timing... I don't have the timing. Another method is capture training: you reward the pup when she is doing what you want - first Sit; then Down; Shake, etc.
Puppies also do cute things; try to capture and reward those things when you notice them.

GSDs can develop a lock&load laser focus with good eye contact, so keep it up, the attention span changes quickly at this age. 

Bite Inhibition: In the new owner section, the Sticky: The Bite Stops Here discusses Dunbar's method for teaching puppies how to control how hard they bite. This is especially important for GSDs, b/c they can be reactive adults, doing damage with their strong bite. I taught my GSD bite inhibition, which worked in an emergency, but when he was excited during play, he could still cut my arm, b/c I didn't go far enough with the training. 

Withdrawing attention is a powerful method for stopping behaviors that you don't like. However, Dunbar doesn't explain the behaviors that indicate "too much" from the puppy. If you turn your back or leave when the pup does something wrong, and she barks or does a playbow, then consider that to be an apology. She may not know exactly why you're leaving, but "she is sorry." If you get those behaviors and can't figure them out, then write back with the context. In addition, be careful about 'correcting' a GSD. You can ignore a Lab and he will get over it quickly. But, a GSD is very sensitive and may get frustrated when 'corrected,' indicated by barking or playbows ... more probably barking.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Hanksimon you say the bark and playbow is an apology, but then you mention it as being a sign of frustration? Can you clarify for me if the bark and playbow after being "corrected" for the play biting and withdrawing attention is a desired outcome or a negative thing? Thanks!

And by corrected I mean the yelp or ouch thing.


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

CritterPoor said:


> I am getting a puppy soon and am interested in reading this study. Could you send me a link for it or let me know what it was titled so I could find it myself?
> 
> thanks



Have a look here 
http://www.shorthairs.net/AboutGSPs/Whentogetyourpuppy/tabid/230/Default.aspx



hanksimon said:


> The study for 7 weeks originally came from research and books by Scott and Fuller. You might find it using Google, but the work is from the 1950s. More recent work, and I don't have a reference, recommends 9 - 10 weeks, especially if the pups are socialized with the human family et al. In fact, 12 weeks is terrific, if the pups get lots of human contact and some training. Some excellent breeders adopt out their puppies at 12 weeks.
> 
> Back to the original questions:
> You're doing great, keep training her. Informally, I've found that you get a much better trained dog when you train them early, as you're doing. But, don't be concerned about her level of patience or response. It'll vary from pup to pup, and change every week, sometimes even backtracking. Be patient and try to learn when she's receptive, and pay attention to her Calming Signals for when it's too much. I strongly recommend that you really work with Come, b/c it's difficult to perfect, the pup may decide to explore when she's around 10 - 12 weeks, and you have an opportunity to continue reinforcing it for the next few weeks. Clicker training is good, but takes good timing... I don't have the timing. Another method is capture training: you reward the pup when she is doing what you want - first Sit; then Down; Shake, etc.
> ...



You may be right. It appears however, it'll depend completely on how the breeder has been taking care of the pups. I don't know how I got so lucky but mine at 7 weeks is surprisingly stable, esp for a GSD. The first night we had her she whined for 10-15 min at most and that night we all got rest. A puppy I had experience with before (also GSD, 8 weeks old) had insane panic and would jump and try to escape and howled like no other. The genetics and temperament have to do it with it but also the first few weeks with the mother and father and litter can def affect how they turn out. My pup is very happy go lucky and whines only after we stop play time and it is time to be left alone. She will cry for a few minutes and either play, eat or go to sleep. 

Thanks for the helpful tips! So far I kind of think she can go potty on command or is getting there. I definitely need to work on Come. Her attention span is so short that sometimes I'll make noise and call her to come, she'll start running over and then just look at the grass. Instead of using a clicker (which I'll order soon), I just use "Yes!" as a marker and try to get the timing right. The timing is tricky as I have very little time to react. I also noticed that when I carry her out of her crate/pen to the yard to do her business and I'm holding there and standing on the lawn, after a few seconds she will whine and try to squirm out of my arms so she can play on the grass. I've been trying to use this opportunity when she's relaxed to have her look at me, and when she makes eye contact (which is fairly easy considering her face is right next to mine), I'll mark with "Yes" and then let her roam free. I guess that's one way to do NILIF. 

I could be wrong but my GSD doesn't seem all that sensitive. I have a sensitive GSD and also recently took care of a very sensitive GSD pup and this one seems more robust. A baby of course but not very fearful, curious, playful and adventurous. Any suggestions on bite inhibition? She gets very mouthy and I understand Ian Dunbar talks about gradually weaning mouthiness. starting with eliminating hard bites and pressure and bites that hurt and then eventually over the coming months eliminating all bites. Well when she's playing she will start biting and chewing and sometimes she will bite my clothes and tug and not let go. 
I have Ian Dunbar's Sirius Puppy DVD and in that he suggests 2 things: Bite Inhibition and Off command. Some overlap between the two. When she bites too hard, stop play and walk away and yell "OW" really loud to startle the puppy. How would you do this when outdoors? I can't just leave the puppy outdoors. Do I just "walk away" a few feet or do I just stop all play and bring her back inside and put her in her pen?

And Off would be things like biting clothing or biting at my hand when trying to eat a treat. Gently smack the nose and shout "Off" loudly and reward when it waits 1 second, then 2 seconds, then 5seconds, then 7 seconds, etc. Is it too early to start this? "Off" is necessary especially when she's biting clothing and our hands but I feel that her attention is all over the place. If I yell Off, she'll just turn around and bite at my feet or something else.


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## CritterPoor (Aug 4, 2011)

pancake said:


> Have a look here
> http://www.shorthairs.net/AboutGSPs/Whentogetyourpuppy/tabid/230/Default.aspx


Thank you. I look forward to reading it when I get home from work,


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@Lucy: I'm making the pup sound too much like a person for ease of writing. The pup may playbow to indicate that she's playing. BTW, I don't know at what age a pup will first playbow(?) The pup may also bark to augment the playbow. Or the pup may bark to b/c she is frustrated that you left when she wanted to play, and she doesn't understand. It's an individual dog and situation thing. The difference isn't critical, since our inter-species communication is so poor  [But now you know one more word in the vocabulary  ]

Yes, these are desired outcomes, b/c now you have a communication going. Pup bites (I wanna play), You yelp, pup startles, no response from you, 'Must have been an anomaly [Yes, puppies do know the word, 'anomaly'.] keep playing, go for blood; You yelp and leave, Huh? What happened, I was playing and you left, bark, bark 'Come back!' ... So, you come back, and the pup bites again... and you leave... Eventually with the Yelp marking the bite, the pup learns bite equal withdraw attention.

However, if the pup barks, and especailly does a playbow (I learned this from experience, not from a study... so my data are sparse  ), then you have an opportunity for improved communication... rather than just a silent departure. The pup has indicated that she knows something is wrong and you can acknowledge that bark/playbow indication (getting nipped again)... or you can ignore the indication (and get nipped again). I believe that the training process is faster and more effective whenever you acknowledge a communication - I have no proof, tho. And the training results seem to have a more marked improvement after the pup sleeps over night, so your feedback (about the pup's learning responsiveness) may be sparse...

When you yell "OW" you want a startle response (stop biting), but you don't want to scare or freakout the pup. Most pups won't get scared if you shreik and stop ... I just don't want to encourage trying to scare the pup. To me a good response is Nip, Yelp, Sit& head turn "Huh?" ... but my best experiences are with Labs...

Nipping - I imagine that you've read the Sticky: The Bite Stops Here. Please do that, if you haven't. Rather than yelping, you can say Ouch! or Oops!. Yelp works for Retrievers. Not sure about GSD or terriers. What you need is a word to mark the nipping in addition to ignoring her:

Read this and note the 3 days and the apology....

Some Tweaks to Bite Inhibition (to get her to stop biting when she wants to play):
1. When the pup bites, then yelp. It should sound about like what the pup does when you step on its paw... don't step on her paw for a sample . When you yelp, the pup should startle briefly and stop nipping. Praise and pet. SHe'll bite.
2. When she bites the second time, Yelp. When she stops, praise and pet. SHe'll nip again, although it may be a little gentler. ...
3. When she bites a third time, Yelp (see a pattern?). But this time, turn your back for 15 - 30 secs. If she comes around and play bows or barks, then that is an apology. This is important. Accept it, praise and pet... and cringe in expectation of the next nip...
4. When she bites the 4th time, Yelp, then leave the area, placing her in a 2 min. time-out. It is better if you can leave, rather than moving her. Then, return and interact. (SHe's still hungry...)
5. When she nips the fifth time, yelp, and leave the area, stopping interaction for now.

You can modify, reduce, increase the steps for the individual pup. The main point is to mark the nip with some vocalization that she notices, but doesn't over-react to (Terriers may get excited by a Yelp), and then you withdraw attention to provide a gentle, non-aversive punishment to stop the undesired behavior.

Pups need to sleep over night in order to learn their lessons. So, keep doing this for 3 days. By the third day, you should notice signficant Bite Inhibition. SHe may still nip, but it will be softer and she won't draw blood. Keep up the training and make sure that everyone yelps.... Very powerful method.

If you learn the technique, then you can apply the "yelp" to other circumstances, also. I believe that "yelp" is "Please don't do that, I don't like it." in dog communication. I currently use the yelp when my dog plays tug, then runs with the toy, when he fetches and keeps it out of reach or when he takes a treat too quickly.... You do need to continue to provide occassional Bite Inhibition tune-ups for the life of the dog.

Although I wrote this last, it's probably the most important point - You don't want to STOP the nipping, more you want the pup to learn various levels of control for how hard she bites. Initially, pups bite hard or not at all, Inhibition teaches levels of control. If you teach a pup only to Stop biting, then in an emergency, such as a broken leg, the natural response will be to bite very hard. With Inhibition, even a suffering dog will hesitate to bite down.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank You so very much for this detailed and very informative answer! Much appreciated.


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> @Lucy: I'm making the pup sound too much like a person for ease of writing. The pup may playbow to indicate that she's playing. BTW, I don't know at what age a pup will first playbow(?) The pup may also bark to augment the playbow. Or the pup may bark to b/c she is frustrated that you left when she wanted to play, and she doesn't understand. It's an individual dog and situation thing. The difference isn't critical, since our inter-species communication is so poor  [But now you know one more word in the vocabulary  ]
> 
> Yes, these are desired outcomes, b/c now you have a communication going. Pup bites (I wanna play), You yelp, pup startles, no response from you, 'Must have been an anomaly [Yes, puppies do know the word, 'anomaly'.] keep playing, go for blood; You yelp and leave, Huh? What happened, I was playing and you left, bark, bark 'Come back!' ... So, you come back, and the pup bites again... and you leave... Eventually with the Yelp marking the bite, the pup learns bite equal withdraw attention.
> 
> ...


Thank you, the step by step does help. She doesn't bite hard enough to draw blood but it still does hurt a little bit and makes my skin sore. I noticed when I try to make a high pitched yelp noise in response, it makes her more playful and aggressive. She thinks my hands are toys given that my fingers are moving and hypnotic. When she wants to play, she'll chase me around the yard and do things like playbow and then when we get close and I try to pet her, she rolls over on her back and starts to grab my hand like its a toy (with her paws) and swings her head from side-to-side to try to bite my hand. I sometimes give it to her gently to teach bite inhibition and sometimes when she's amped up, she will bite with some pressure like it's a toy. She's young so no blood but I want this down as soon as possible and as early as possible since this is the most important thing to teach. 
When she bites, I withdraw my hand and yell OW or make a high pitched noise (I'll choose one and make it consistent sounding, I have a problem producing such a high yelp perfectly every time so I might go with a high pitched OW!) and I pull my hands up towards my chest where she doesn't have access. Then she's do spins, bark, bounce around, play bow and go for my feet. So I move my feet back and she thinks I'm playing ... to which I bring my hands back in the mix to save my feet and ankles which are more sensitive. She bites at it again. I say OW. 

I have to see this bark and playbow thing cause after this post I realized she started doing that and just a few minutes ago I ended play session after she was mouthy 4-5 times but I feel I could have been more consistent with the timing and the noise/marker I use. It's hard to believe that this would actually work though. She seems to naive and she doesn't even seem to pause for a second when I yelp like she doesn't even know what I'm doing. Is it really working? With my adult dog, if I were to make a yelp or even say No she would immediately stop and look at me, at least for a second. I fed my dog some cihcken out of my hands (adult) and she accidentally bit my hand (no blood) and i was like OW! (for real) and she immediately went ears back and looked super guilty. She wasn't taught bite inhibition from what I know but she immediately knew she did something wrong. I just said dont bite so hard.. and gave her some more food. Contrast that with the puppy, bite -> ow -> continue to bite even harder. 

Maybe GSD's with prey drive like high pitched squealing noises because theyre like prey? I read that about squeaking toys and that is all my puppy will play with. Out of 5 or 6 toys she only bites the one that squeals. So maybe that's not producing the desired psychological results. It could be egging her on to play and bite harder because she does view my hands like a toy.
Also I don't play with her in her pen cause it's too small, I have to play with her where she has space to roam like the yard. But I can't just walk away from her and leave her unattended so the only option is to stop play time and put her back in her x-pen after a few offenses. Is that going to register in her brain?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Almost all puppies like high pitched noises and will think you're trying to play with them. You just need to follow the steps and be patient. Sure, an adult dog understands that when you say "ow" she should back off, but puppies are just babies and honestly don't understand a thing yet. If you are consistent and continue to remove yourself from playing with her when she bites (using "ow" as a cue that you will walk away) she will eventually get it. I know how hard it is to believe this when they're still biting after a couple weeks, but it works. I don't think it has anything to do with being a GSD - my pup is a gun dog and he is obsessed with biting hands and squeaky toys. It's just a puppy thing.


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Almost all puppies like high pitched noises and will think you're trying to play with them. You just need to follow the steps and be patient. Sure, an adult dog understands that when you say "ow" she should back off, but puppies are just babies and honestly don't understand a thing yet. If you are consistent and continue to remove yourself from playing with her when she bites (using "ow" as a cue that you will walk away) she will eventually get it. I know how hard it is to believe this when they're still biting after a couple weeks, but it works. I don't think it has anything to do with being a GSD - my pup is a gun dog and he is obsessed with biting hands and squeaky toys. It's just a puppy thing.


It kind of sucks that I can't remove myself from the environment cause it takes place on the lawn mostly especially after she goes potty and I give her a little play break. It just results in me picking her up, walking back inside and putting her back in the x-pen. I could try to time it so that I play with her in her xpen at times when I know she will nip me and that'll allow me to walk away. 

But one improvement in the past day is I wrote about how I won't put her down on the lawn to roam and play, go potty, etc. after I carry her outside until she gives me eye contact. And after 1 time I implemented that, every single time after that I would carry her out to the lawn and she would be looking up waiting for me to make eye contact. To which I would mark with "Yes!" and "good girl" and let her go free.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pancake said:


> Never said I got corrections from Ian Dunbar, just said he's one of the few authors I have read. Corrections are a part of my training and it may not be screaming No, smacking the puppy or anything like that but I do want her to get used to the word No. No means disapproval and since dogs learn thru association, a No followed by me leaving the room per Ian Dunbar's isolation/timeout technique conditions her that No is negative consequence which results in me leaving. Same as a clicker or a Yes followed by praise or reward.
> 
> You didnt present anything helpful at all. And where I live the puppy is sold at a perfect age thank you very much. if you read the scientific study on puppy development you would know that 7 weeks is actually the most optimal time to be separated from the litter and mother even though much of mainstream media touts 8 weeks. Actually it's been changed to 7-8 weeks now. And in that study it showed dogs who were 11 or 12 weeks when separated actually had more behavioral and separation anxiety issues than when separated earlier.


I think "helpful" depends on point of view. I didn't see that as a hostile, or unhelpful post. It seems to me that "no" leaves a vacuum. Don't do this, but what to do instead? So while I may occasionally interrupt wth a sound, I make sure to show the dog what I want instead. And mostly, instead of telling the dog "no" I'll teach an incompatible behavior that I like.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Pancake I am very much in the same situation as you with my Lucy. Just a few weeks Ahead of you in the process. She did/does all the same things you describe. What has helped is me teaching her the leave it command. And then using that when she bites my pants. Then when she gets off my pants I reward her. Also the high pitched yelp or ouch only excited her more and makes her come in for a harder bite. What does work for her is a low pitched ACK or growling sound. That gets her attention. And she will do the bark apology. When she does that apology she gets rewarded with praise. Sometimes a treat. If she keeps biting, I get up and leave her for a short period. She still has biting issues, but I am seeing improvement. It is slow though.


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> I think "helpful" depends on point of view. I didn't see that as a hostile, or unhelpful post. It seems to me that "no" leaves a vacuum. Don't do this, but what to do instead? So while I may occasionally interrupt wth a sound, I make sure to show the dog what I want instead. And mostly, instead of telling the dog "no" I'll teach an incompatible behavior that I like.


Well in the case of the response you're referring to, it was not helpful objectively speaking. He or she suggested nothing of value other than what I took as reprimand or judgmental posting. Suggesting that my 7 week old puppy was too young to be "sold by law where I live" offends me because a) even if it was true, what am I supposed to do with that information? It doesn't help anyone. Shall I go return this puppy? b) he/she was wrong and I've had a 8 week old + puppy that was more unstable than a 7 week puppy and as the study suggested, it depends purely on their living environment and care by the breeder. 

And also wrong about Ian Dunbar's methods. Ian Dunbar suggests that you YELL extremely loud (to startle the puppy to stop its actions) "OW" or "OFF" and smack the puppy on the nose for unacceptable and potentially dangerous behavior (esp for large breed dogs) and places high importance on the OFF command and bite inhibition, which relate to using their teeth to do damage (either to people, dogs or property). I don't see how stating "no" is somehow worse or discouraged in comparison. 
What is being confused, however, is that he educates ignorant puppy/dog owners that shout "NO!!! bad dog! NO!" without properly showing and teaching the dog the alternative and appropriate behavior. For example, when a dog bites your shoes, yelling "NO!" will not accomplish much other than conveying your anger and dissatisfaction with the puppy's behavior. This does work sometimes in the long run and this is how dogs associate the sound "NO" with "stop, leave it" or general dissatisfaction. But it's not the most optimal or efficient way of training. You can still say No, but instead, choosing a more specific command word like "Off" and then giving the dog an alternative like a chew toy and following with reward for stopping/chewing the acceptable toy is much better. 

The idea of censoring the sound "no" is completely ridiculous. I say no and it's part of my everyday language. And when you develop a close bond with your dog(s), you can speak naturally to your dogs and they'll pick up what you're trying to say by reading your body language, tone of voice, and recognizing familiar sounds. Learning the meaning of "No" wasn't part of specific training with my other dog, it was merely me communicating with her and now even if she's off leash and walking away farther than she should, I can talk to her quite literally and say, "Bandit, what did I say? No, don't go there. Come here." And she will turn around and come back. 

But you are definitely right about using no "with a vacuum". No without direction is only frustrating for the dog and the human. No + teaching the appropriate way is perfectly fine. 





Lucy Brees said:


> Pancake I am very much in the same situation as you with my Lucy. Just a few weeks Ahead of you in the process. She did/does all the same things you describe. What has helped is me teaching her the leave it command. And then using that when she bites my pants. Then when she gets off my pants I reward her. Also the high pitched yelp or ouch only excited her more and makes her come in for a harder bite. What does work for her is a low pitched ACK or growling sound. That gets her attention. And she will do the bark apology. When she does that apology she gets rewarded with praise. Sometimes a treat. If she keeps biting, I get up and leave her for a short period. She still has biting issues, but I am seeing improvement. It is slow though.


Oh how interesting, I was going to name her Lucy too. But other family members wanted Lucky.  
That's interesting, maybe I will try a lower pitched noise. Maybe it's just in my head but she does seem to not bite as hard sometimes. Maybe it's just coincidence but I took the time to go into her pen so that I can have the opportunity to leave when she bites hard but she would just mouth my hand lightly. But other times when I pick her up and she doesn't want to go back inside, she'll try to nip at me, which of course only confirms we are going inside and playtime is over.

Does your dog really like treats? My dog likes treats but I think the dehydrated beef liver is giving a little bit of diarrhea and her recall is nonexistent at this point. She does do sit semi-ok if I have her full attention (AKA she wants out of her pen) which is very rare.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm pretty sure Ian Dunbar never recommends smacking a puppy. . .do you have a link to that? I can't find it on his website. Everything I've seen from him so far says never to smack a puppy.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Yes my Lucy loves treats. She loves the freeze dried liver and I have some other healthy grain free things for her.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'm pretty sure Ian Dunbar never recommends smacking a puppy. . .do you have a link to that? I can't find it on his website. Everything I've seen from him so far says never to smack a puppy.


I don't much like his "instructive repremand" but I've not heard of him smacking a puppy.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

What's an instructive reprimand?


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree: I think you've mistaken Dunbar with someone else: "smack the puppy on the nose for unacceptable and potentially dangerous behavior (esp for large breed dogs) " He is well known for his very gentle behavior with Akitas and Malamutes (also Pits, but this isn't as well known).

Instead, of Yelp, any sound to mark will work - Ouch, "You Brute," a growl, etc. [See Mark Twain, below]. The older dog has already learned that sounds have meanings, the pup hasn't gotten that, yet.

An Instructive Reprimand (also called many other things) is a carefully orchestrated nagging or repeated cue that strongly depends on increasing tone to obtain compliance, after a dog has been trained (and mostly proofed) with that cue.

Rather than telling Fido, "Sit, Sit, Sit!" (not good); Dunbar has a routine for say Fido, sit ... Fido, Sit ... Fido, SIT ... Fido, SIT! . This is used to get compliance when the dog has issues with a 'misunderstanding' in quality or in distraction. ... The method works, but there are questions about its 'scientific' underpinning, b/c it's not punishment... and not reward (I think it's not behavioral  , instead cognitive - advisement.

http://www.boulderdog.net/2011/03/30/rover-sit-sit-sit-sitsitsit-the-giveaway/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YvESSNwIbQ&feature=relmfu


The idea that no gentleman ever swears is all wrong. He can swear and still be a gentleman if he does it in a nice and benevolent and affectionate way.

Under certain circumstances, urgent circumstances, desperate circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
- Mark Twain, a Biography


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lucy Brees said:


> What's an instructive reprimand?


I hate to describe it, because it's not something I want to promote. Basically, it's getting louder and more demanding with your cue (in this case, I think it's a command) until the dog does it. You can probably find more info on DogStar Daily, but I'm just not very fond of techniques that are meant to intimidate the dog into behavior I want.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> An Instructive Reprimand (also called many other things) is a carefully orchestrated nagging or repeated cue that strongly depends on increasing tone to obtain compliance, after a dog has been trained (and mostly proofed) with that cue.
> 
> Rather than telling Fido, "Sit, Sit, Sit!" (not good); Dunbar has a routine for say Fido, sit ... Fido, Sit ... Fido, SIT ... Fido, SIT! . This is used to get compliance when the dog has issues with a 'misunderstanding' in quality or in distraction. ... The method works, but there are questions about its 'scientific' underpinning, b/c it's not punishment... and not reward (I think it's not behavioral  , instead cognitive - advisement. .



I think a good case could be made that it is Negative Reinforcement (dog sits, you stop intimidating him)


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I'll go with that. I agree that this might not be appropriate for a GSD or many other dogs that can be sensitive .... But for a distractable family pet Lab or Boxer... maybe even a Pit ... the response (from my dog) is more like "oops, you caught me  " 

I wouldn't use it with KBLover's Wally - but he wouldn't need it.... but Wvasko's Pierce might respond to it well,.... but wvasko won't need it, b/c Pierce would never be distracted


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I'm pretty sure Ian Dunbar never recommends smacking a puppy. . .do you have a link to that? I can't find it on his website. Everything I've seen from him so far says never to smack a puppy.


Sorry for the late response. Actually he does and it's not in his puppy book "Before you get a puppy" but if you watch his Sirius DVD series and also other youtube clips, he absolutely conveys how important it is that the puppy learns to control his teeth and bite. And you can get a better sense of urgency and his tone when you watch video of him rather than reading. I don't agree with some things or his tone when he talks to people, it's almost condescending and with that, I do think that he's mistaken about certain things but everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and his dogs turned out marvelous so Im not judging. I always take the approach "Take what is useful, discard what is useless". I'm not really an Ian Dunbar fanboy or a Cesar Millan fanboy, or a "positive reinforcement ONLY" fanboy, but have an open mind to everything. 

In his DVD series, it's no mistake he shouts REALLY loud and gruff at the puppy when the puppy tries to nip at his hands with treats in it. He says "off" at a normal tone of voice, the puppy continues to nip and grab at the treat, he says "offff...." a little bit more serious, and the puppy continues. And finally he shouts "OFF!" really loud, gruff and succinct like a bark and the puppy backs off. When the puppy backs off he gives the puppy the treat and praises immensely. He continues this and tries to count a few seconds in between the "off" command and in the video the puppy went from not being able to leave his hand or the child's hand alone, to fully understanding what he wanted in a matter of seconds. The "smack" isn't a punch just so everyone knows. It is a very slight tap on the nose. 
I have done this Off shout method without the smack, and my puppy was startled of course, that's the point but she learns that through the positive reinforcement that follows immediately after with praise and love, what the rules and boundaries are. And biting hard with pressure on my hand is an absolute no. I can't say I'm quite there yet but she only needs to learn the command "off" once before it becomes familiar what it means, and positive reinforcement takes it from there. I don't find it necessary to bark every time, I've only done it on 1 occasion. 

I'm not advocating anything, if this method sounds cruel to you then I recommend that you do not use it. There are a million paths to similar destinations. Some people use ecollars, others use only treats, others use only praise, some use Cesar Millan body language stuff, and some people like myself use a hybrid of various "systems" as seen fit. Every dog is different and to commit yourself to a team or method of training religiously is kind of silly in my opinion.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It's just sort of weird because in his free stuff he says quite clearly not to get physical with a nippy puppy because it'll make things worse and possibly turn the pup into a real biter. He changes tactics for paying customers, maybe?

And I agree that sticking to one method religiously isn't going to work for some dogs, but it's a good idea to know what behaviors you will and won't allow yourself to indulge in.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

My Lucy is a tiny little schnoodle, and is very smart, and trains pretty easily but she is a stubborn mule when it comes to the play biting. I have to use a a degree of loudness and firmness ( ie could be interpreted as meanness or intimidation) to even get her attention when she is riled up and seriously play biting. A normal tone and volume of "off" or "ow" does not even get into her ear drums. I have to be pretty loud and forceful sounding at times, but as soon as she backs off, and/or barks/bows, she gets praised immediately and the play continues.

I am certainly a novice, and incredibly inexperienced, but I have tried many things with her since I got her; lots of things do not even phase her, so sometimes I just have to be ....LOUD

PS ... for me, physical punishment of any form is never OK on my part.


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Lucy Brees said:


> My Lucy is a tiny little schnoodle, and is very smart, and trains pretty easily but she is a stubborn mule when it comes to the play biting. I have to use a a degree of loudness and firmness ( ie could be interpreted as meanness or intimidation) to even get her attention when she is riled up and seriously play biting. A normal tone and volume of "off" or "ow" does not even get into her ear drums. I have to be pretty loud and forceful sounding at times, but as soon as she backs off, and/or barks/bows, she gets praised immediately and the play continues.
> 
> I am certainly a novice, and incredibly inexperienced, but I have tried many things with her since I got her; lots of things do not even phase her, so sometimes I just have to be ....LOUD
> 
> PS ... for me, physical punishment of any form is never OK on my part.


I definitely agree. But also the state of mind (something I agree with Cesar Millan) of the human being is quite important. Coming from a place of anger or frustration (sometimes its hard not to) is never really helpful in my personal experience, it just gets me all flustered and the dog in a time out. But having the ability to be in a "zen" sort of "nothing can phase me" type of "calm, assertive energy" is so key in my patience and maintaining a positive relationship with my dog. I do admire Cesar for that, the focus on the human being's emotional state and constantly teaching humans to maintain a stable energy and never to come from a place of anger. 

Something that does work I learned is physical re-direction. Not punishment. A newspaper to a dog's face or bottom is physical punishment whether or not it hurts them (it doesn't). But if a puppy is fixated on biting my ankles, I am trying more to be patient, extremely calm yet assertive in letting it know that that's against the rules and redirecting her mouth. If she manages to make eye contact, I hold it and she knows I mean business and I offer the alternative which is a chew toy, stick of carrot, whatever it is she likes. And then praise lots.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> It's just sort of weird because in his free stuff he says quite clearly not to get physical with a nippy puppy because it'll make things worse and possibly turn the pup into a real biter. He changes tactics for paying customers, maybe?
> 
> And I agree that sticking to one method religiously isn't going to work for some dogs, but it's a good idea to know what behaviors you will and won't allow yourself to indulge in.


It's also possible that it is an old video. I used to recommend stuff I'd NEVER suggest now. Positive reinforcement based training isn't "religion", it's based on science and proven to work. and while it will probably still work if you also use threats and aversives, you're weaking it's effectiveness. Probably not that noticable with strictly pet dog training, but shows a big difference in advanced training.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

I raised two stubborn limit pushing boys into adulthood. Poor guys, they are the ones I was not zen with and lost my cool. LOL I am much older and wiser, and less stressed now. When I use my loud voice with Lucy I am never angry or hostile or even frustrated. I understand it is just puppy behavior. I just raise my voice enough to get her attention, get her to stop and redirect her, and she does get praise when she stops. If we are walking down the hall and she is contstantly biting and pulling my pants, I don't have treats in my pocket. I stop, say leave it, and wait for her to let go. When she does I give her a happy voice praise, sometimes I reach down to pet her, and then start walking again. I can do this 5 times to get 10 feet down the hall!


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> It's also possible that it is an old video. I used to recommend stuff I'd NEVER suggest now. Positive reinforcement based training isn't "religion", it's based on science and proven to work. and while it will probably still work if you also use threats and aversives, you're weaking it's effectiveness. Probably not that noticable with strictly pet dog training, but shows a big difference in advanced training.


True but he also stands by his Sirius DVD (which is old) to this day and still sells it so I'm not sure what his current stance is. 

Anything is a religion when it becomes dogmatic belief that it is the only way to do something. Of course I'm not accusing you or anything like that, I'm just merely pointing out that there are some people I have run into that are on "team positive reinforcement ONLY" and if you so much as look at a dog "wrong", they will suggest the human be put down. Kind of ironic. Especially on youtube videos (not the best demographic and group of people but still haha) some of the horrendous comments on Cesar Millan's videos about how he needs to be put to death. Just goes to show you that sometimes our little feeble brains can lock onto a group of ideas, and never let go. Science included. The beauty of science is that it's everchanging and science just 10 years ago was quite different than it is today. Dog training based on science in the 1970's has evolved in 2012 with more data, studies and experiences. Operant conditioning is scientific sure, but it's still a method and a path for attaining similar goals. Negative feedback works of course, and so does old school "beating" the dog. Is it humane? Is it efficient? Is it good for the dog? How does it affect your relationship with your dog? Those are questions to be considered. I don't doubt positive reinforcement works. Everyone knows the story of Pavlov's dog. It works with human beings just the same. I'm just pointing out that other methods work and when someone says there is only 1 way to do something, it can become religious. 

Also something to consider is the definition of things like "punishment", "correction", "threats", "aversives", etc. etc. as well as the particular dog that is being dealt with. Maybe this is just me but I most definitely do not think positive reinforcement ONLY is strong enough for certain rehab dogs. What it does offer is a very humane, operant conditioning and behavior modification that is built from praise and positivity and teaching the dog "what to do" rather than "what NOT to do". However, I've learned thru experience and observation that dogs need rules and boundaries. I don't want to use the word "thrive" but they almost require it. They require leadership. And despite the controversy of whether dogs are "pack animals" or not, the fact remains that dogs are social animals just like humans, and social mammals naturally have leaders in the group for survival. And that's where rules and limitations come in. And in that case, depending on how important the boundaries of the group are, negative reinforcement or use of corrections may be necessary. 
My personal preference is a "push - pull" type of method. Reward great behavior, discourage bad behavior. (EDIT: I should clarify that when I say discourage bad behavior, there are methods to this and you shouldn't just expect your dog to know the rules. But just as a human being would adapt VERY quickly to new situations AKA being throw in prison with a new set of rules, etc. a dog would learn as well. You do something and it doesn't feel good or results in a negative consequence, you stop doing it. In my past experience the most discouragement I've had to do is to say No and use my body language to convey what I expect of my dog. I.E. if she jumps on me, I step forward instead of cowering backwards to encourage the forward movement on her part. When she tries to dart out the door, I use my foot to block and wait for her to look up at me. Little things like that.)
It's not to say that it's the only way to do things as I have seen amazing obedient dogs who are very happy that have been trained with ONLY positive reinforcement and I have also seen the same with e-collar training. Personally I wouldnt use an ecollar though but I think the point is that positive reinforcement is touted too much as "scientific", therefore the best way to handle dog behavior. When in reality, more controversial methods like the e-collar or prong collars, etc. are just as "scientific". They are effective and work. It's the other issues that are a concern. 

Ecollar, prong, choke collar, etc. and negative reinforcement is just as effective in advanced training. The definition of advanced training is subjective though. And please I hope no one confuses my statement to think I'm SUGGESTING or advocating it. I'm not advocating anything. But GSD Schutzhund training, police and military K9 and protection training is IMO one of the most advanced training a dog can get and they dont utilize ONLY positive reinforcement. The question is which method is the right one for you and your dog?


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Lucy Brees said:


> I raised two stubborn limit pushing boys into adulthood. Poor guys, they are the ones I was not zen with and lost my cool. LOL I am much older and wiser, and less stressed now. When I use my loud voice with Lucy I am never angry or hostile or even frustrated. I understand it is just puppy behavior. I just raise my voice enough to get her attention, get her to stop and redirect her, and she does get praise when she stops. If we are walking down the hall and she is contstantly biting and pulling my pants, I don't have treats in my pocket. I stop, say leave it, and wait for her to let go. When she does I give her a happy voice praise, sometimes I reach down to pet her, and then start walking again. I can do this 5 times to get 10 feet down the hall!


haha yeah i remember when I was kid I had a family dog and I'm pleading complete ignorance on this but I was like 9 yers old. And we would spank him with a newspaper to correct bad behavior. Not hard. but to this day I have much regret about that. I wish I can take it back and have treated him much better.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Re: Dunbar punch
I think I'm familiar with that video, it may be on youtube. It is clearly Not a Cesar tap. And, Dunbar has not recommended that to trainers. It was more an innocuous touch, that the pup could have ignored, however it served to get the pup's focus.

For instance, here is an example of Dunbar teaching his own dog, Hugo, and at the very end, he touches the dog on the nose... Hugo nearly ignores the touch, but I believe he recognizes the potential for another treat...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgvhXbfH_gM&feature=endscreen&NR=1

I consider this touch to be very different than a punch or even a tap.

Disclaimer - I slap my dog's tail (not his butt, his tail) when he sniffs something too long. If you played with a Lab, you know that their tail is really a baseball bat that they can use as a blunt force weapon. When I slap my dog's tail, sometimes it gets his attention to stop sniffing the ground... Other times, he sits, ignores me, and keeps sniffing....


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pancake said:


> True but he also stands by his Sirius DVD (which is old) to this day and still sells it so I'm not sure what his current stance is.
> 
> Also something to consider is the definition of things like "punishment", "correction", "threats", "aversives", etc. etc. as well as the particular dog that is being dealt with. Maybe this is just me but I most definitely do not think positive reinforcement ONLY is strong enough for certain rehab dogs. What it does offer is a very humane, operant conditioning and behavior modification that is built from praise and positivity and teaching the dog "what to do" rather than "what NOT to do". However, I've learned thru experience and observation that dogs need rules and boundaries. I don't want to use the word "thrive" but they almost require it. They require leadership. And despite the controversy of whether dogs are "pack animals" or not, the fact remains that dogs are social animals just like humans, and social mammals naturally have leaders in the group for survival. And that's where rules and limitations come in. And in that case, depending on how important the boundaries of the group are, negative reinforcement or use of corrections may be necessary. ?


Honestly, unless the dog is already very damaged (in which case I can't see damaging him more) an intelligent use of positive reinforcement and negative punishment can be very effective in teaching a dog rules and boundaries. 



pancake said:


> Ecollar, prong, choke collar, etc. and negative reinforcement is just as effective in advanced training. The definition of advanced training is subjective though. And please I hope no one confuses my statement to think I'm SUGGESTING or advocating it. I'm not advocating anything. But GSD Schutzhund training, police and military K9 and protection training is IMO one of the most advanced training a dog can get and they dont utilize ONLY positive reinforcement. The question is which method is the right one for you and your dog?


The older the dog sport or occupation, (including things like schutzhund, police and military, and competition obedience) the more trainers you will find who are locked into Koehler type methods, and since they are successful, they see no reason to change. And because they are successful, other people flock to their methods. Of course, there are a few schutzhund, and more than a few competition obedience people who have given up their prongs and chokes and still have top dogs. The stuff I want to teach a dog (like freestyle) the dog needs to be unintimidated and a more-than-willing participant. So that's what I do, and what I teach.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

We used to use Koehler methods 30 years ago, but now most people have seen that positive methods work better. Even some of the older folks who use 'punishment' methods have impecable timing that results in non-painful, non-aversive approaches. People using harsh punishment methods are just more visible, not more numerous.

Schutzhund may still use the old Koehler methods, as Pawzk9 suggests, but lots of the police and protection services now use very positive methods... there's nothing more fearsome than a malinois who was joyously taught that precision attacking and biting are fun! You don't need punishment (+P) to get precise work from them. [The older GSD Schutzhund seemed aggressive or fearful... the malinois [and GSDs] look scary happy as they come at you...]

In Texas, we have a number of Lab hunting trainings who start young pups with positive and mostly hands off approaches to create $5000+ dogs used in the field. 

Freestyle and Agility training are also advanced methods that use positive, mostly hands off approaches.

See: Karen Pryor for Clicker Training and Sue Ailsby for multiple levels of advanced training via purely positive methods: http://www.sue-eh.ca/


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> Re: Dunbar punch
> I think I'm familiar with that video, it may be on youtube. It is clearly Not a Cesar tap. And, Dunbar has not recommended that to trainers. It was more an innocuous touch, that the pup could have ignored, however it served to get the pup's focus.
> 
> For instance, here is an example of Dunbar teaching his own dog, Hugo, and at the very end, he touches the dog on the nose... Hugo nearly ignores the touch, but I believe he recognizes the potential for another treat...
> ...


Hm but that's definitely not what he does in the DVD series. That's definitely a gentle, almost delicate tap on the nose. Perhaps he's gotten softer as he gotten older, I'm not sure but it was definitely a smack on the nose. I'll see if there's some way to upload that video clip but I'm not sure how. 





Pawzk9 said:


> Honestly, unless the dog is already very damaged (in which case I can't see damaging him more) an intelligent use of positive reinforcement and negative punishment can be very effective in teaching a dog rules and boundaries.
> 
> 
> 
> The older the dog sport or occupation, (including things like schutzhund, police and military, and competition obedience) the more trainers you will find who are locked into Koehler type methods, and since they are successful, they see no reason to change. And because they are successful, other people flock to their methods. Of course, there are a few schutzhund, and more than a few competition obedience people who have given up their prongs and chokes and still have top dogs. The stuff I want to teach a dog (like freestyle) the dog needs to be unintimidated and a more-than-willing participant. So that's what I do, and what I teach.


Definitely agree with that and especially agility and tracking where the sport is entirely based on the dog's drive to find a reward, positive reinforcement and encourage is excellent for that. But it's all relative and perspective. Things like police K9 attack dogs and bomb dogs, they are subjected to extremely stressful situation on a daily basis, involving gun shots, explosions, people screaming and yelling, blood, punches, getting attacked, pepper spray, etc. I would even argue in these cases and lines of work that the more "harsher" or correction based training is mandatory. But also to keep in mind that only the strongest and fiercest yet controllable and stable of dogs are used and selected for this kind of work. And those kind of dogs thrive on it. They are the UFC fighters of the dog world and had they been raised in a low energy home, they'd be a lot of trouble cause they have a higher than average requirement for satisfying that drive and intensity. The handler is also required to have an extremely high energy, high prey and fight drive dog that has been trained to rip arms out, under his or her authority and command at all times for the safety of other human beings and living things. And it's also not to say that it has to be one or the other. It can be both, hybrid or none of at all. 

It all depends on the dog though.

On another note, it's the general philosophy and how you view dogs if we're talking about house pets. Some people view dogs as human equivalents or higher than humans. And in their case, even a tap by the dog whisperer is "inhumane" and "god awful". Other people, maybe someone who grew up rough and saw feral dogs surviving in packs and see dogs as animals that should be controllable and should listen to the human being's rules and boundaries within the household, they view it quite differently. Each case is on the extreme sides of the spectrum but you get the picture. In both cases, there can be a lot of love and there can also be a lot of idiots who don't do it right and end up with a dog with lots of problems.

At the end of the day, it's all personal preference. People would flip out if someone told them how to raise their child but when it comes to dogs, dog trainers of all colors are criticized and treated like they are the most atrocious person on the planet. Maybe it's just my view of things but I've seen a lot of "softy, positive reinforcement ONLY, only love and cuddle your dog forever and no discipline at all" people comment on youtube particularly. more than usual. and lot of people dedicating a lot of their time at attacking cesar millan, almost irrationally and disproportionately so.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

pancake said:


> Definitely agree with that and especially agility and tracking where the sport is entirely based on the dog's drive to find a reward, positive reinforcement and encourage is excellent for that. But it's all relative and perspective. Things like police K9 attack dogs and bomb dogs, they are subjected to extremely stressful situation on a daily basis, involving gun shots, explosions, people screaming and yelling, blood, punches, getting attacked, pepper spray, etc. I would even argue in these cases and lines of work that the more "harsher" or correction based training is mandatory. But also to keep in mind that only the strongest and fiercest yet controllable and stable of dogs are used and selected for this kind of work. And those kind of dogs thrive on it. They are the UFC fighters of the dog world and had they been raised in a low energy home, they'd be a lot of trouble cause they have a higher than average requirement for satisfying that drive and intensity. The handler is also required to have an extremely high energy, high prey and fight drive dog that has been trained to rip arms out, under his or her authority and command at all times for the safety of other human beings and living things. And it's also not to say that it has to be one or the other. It can be both, hybrid or none of at all. .


To the contrary, it seems to me necessary that in stressful situations the dog be able to view the handler as someone who "has his back" and not someone else he is in a confrontational relationship with. I saw a video of one military Malinois who would not out when asked. When the handler forced the dog to out, the dog redirected to the handler and knawed considerably on his hand. I can't think that is an effective strategy.





pancake said:


> On another note, it's the general philosophy and how you view dogs if we're talking about house pets. Some people view dogs as human equivalents or higher than humans. And in their case, even a tap by the dog whisperer is "inhumane" and "god awful". Other people, maybe someone who grew up rough and saw feral dogs surviving in packs and see dogs as animals that should be controllable and should listen to the human being's rules and boundaries within the household, they view it quite differently. Each case is on the extreme sides of the spectrum but you get the picture. In both cases, there can be a lot of love and there can also be a lot of idiots who don't do it right and end up with a dog with lots of problems.
> 
> At the end of the day, it's all personal preference. People would flip out if someone told them how to raise their child but when it comes to dogs, dog trainers of all colors are criticized and treated like they are the most atrocious person on the planet. Maybe it's just my view of things but I've seen a lot of "softy, positive reinforcement ONLY, only love and cuddle your dog forever and no discipline at all" people comment on youtube particularly. more than usual. and lot of people dedicating a lot of their time at attacking cesar millan, almost irrationally and disproportionately so.


On the contrary, many people have opinions on child rearing and child "experts" and express them. I don't train the way I do because it is more feel good. And I do expect the dog to know rules and boundaries. I've just found, by starting with more traditional training and evolving to clicker training that I can teach rules and boundaries without the use of intimidation or discomfort, and that mixing and matching the two only demotivates and confuses the dog. I train both competition and pet dogs. And I want an equally involved dog who - unless it's a serious no-no - is a confident participant in training. And, I've found that even if it's a serious no-no, it's better to teach an incompatible behavior, or change the dog's gut reaction to a situation.


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## pancake (Sep 14, 2010)

Well I think you may have misunderstood me.. cause I agree with you there. I would never suggest a handler vs dog mentality. That's a big no no. To be successful at anything training related, whether it's potty training or advanced level obedience, there needs to be a relationship there and trust. I think we're in agreement there. I'm certainly not suggesting using harsh "do what I tell you because I'm the human, I outrank you on Earth" type of mentality. In fact, that's worse than what I was speaking out against, which was coddling animals to put it blunt. (Certainly wasn't accusing you of you that though. Just an observation of a trend I see with this whole "I'm on team positive reinforcement ONLY" crowd). The disagreement is probably in the details and very minute training techniques. But I do believe you can accomplish a loving and absolutely unbreakable trust and bond with a dog using say, an e-collar. Though I wouldn't use that myself, it is possible given the right situation, the right timing and technique, and most importantly, the right dog. No need to use that on a puppy or a non aggressive rehab dog. My point was that every situation necessitates different techniques and 1 tool in the toolbox is fine if it works for someone, but it MAY not work for another person. That's all I'm trying to get that, positive reinforcement ONLY isn't "godmode" when it comes to dog training even though many people act like it is and there is no other alternative. 


I absolutely have no doubt that you are able to teach rules and boundaries with a clicker or positive conditioning. I don't doubt that. And i believe it works for many if not most dogs. But I'm also able to have a loving and trusting relationship with my dogs, that trust me and will do as I say not because theyre fearful but they trust me. When another dog is barking aggressively across the street at my dog and my dog is getting riled up and I say "no" and give a quick correction before anything escalates into barking or even allowing my dog to go to a sense of insecurity, she immediately snaps out of it and looks at me happy waiting to see what the next move is. Doesn't happen much these days but it did in the past. Requires no hitting, no pain or abuse and doesn't "scare" the dog or makes my dog become "fearful" of me. And I personally feel that when you give that quick, well timed correction or distraction which Cesar Millan does very well philosophically, you're saving the dog from going into a state of its own anxiety without reason. Anyone who knows anyone with anxiety or depression disorder should know that the worst thing to endure is when a single seedling buds in your mind that causes panic or fear and it grows and grows and grows and eventually causes a full blown panic attack. the key is to stop it in the bud. And if a dog doesn't know that it shouldn't be fearful, a quick correction is IMO the best way to save the dog from itself. ALONG with treats and praise once you find a state of mind that you want to reward. That's what I meant by hybrid method. 

So many different "methods" work. I chose my particular "method" because frankly I agree with the other dog psychological philosophies that aren't included in animal conditioning. Conditioning is just retraining the brain a routine and hijacking the reward system to exhibit a favorable behavioral response with constant repetition. My personal belief is that there's conditioning and then there's just psychology. Some people may not agree with me but there are things that are natural to dogs as there are things natural to squirrels and humans, or hamsters. Things like hamster's tendency to hide and scavenge. Dogs have a general way of thinking and I believe that without providing leadership (which again I must emphasis that a lot of people confuse with harsh tones or physical brute strength), dogs are deprived of one of the most natural desires. I think we can agree that dogs can't be leaders of humans. It just doesn't work. We as humans take the leadership role when we decided to take care of the animal, feed it, provide shelter, love and rules so it doesn't run away or get run over by a car, eat poison, etc. Some people tend to void the space of leader for the dog to fill and that creates an unstable dog. Can't expect a dog to stop barking, stop biting the couch, stop attacking my friends that come over, etc. basically doing whatever it wants to when the other 50% of the time, no one is there to provide guidance on what is allowed and not allowed. Again can be done with positive reinforcement sure, but that's a reward system based method and my personal opinion is that there are more efficient ways for CERTAIN tasks. 
One of the reasons why I had so much success with NILIF is because you control the resources and you let him or her know that it is so. By doing so, you are providing rules and boundaries. But I guess NILIF has positive conditioning as part of it's tool. To reinforce good behavior. But it is just that, a tool in a toolbox. And in any group setting, the person or animal who calls the shots is the alpha. Forget the "pack leader" or "dogs are pack animals" cliche sentences. That's the dynamic for any social animal or group of animals, even reptiles. 
Now some people will argue against the TECHNICAL techniques such as certain correction taps, or sounds or ecollar settings, prong collars, and so forth and that's up to debate and personal preference. 

If there's one point I want to make it's that anyone who claims it's their training way or the highway is too arrogant or stubborn to accept the vast possibilities of reality and success stories of other people. 

Sorry Pawk9, I went on a rant there. Wasn't directed towards you it was just something I've been bottling up after watching all these ridiculous youtube videos. I agree 100% about redirection and that's important in any training philosophy regardless of technical method. You can be an ecollar guy, a newspaper thumper or a treat person when it comes to technicals but the philosophy of providing the dog the RIGHT or EXPECTED behavior in place of the "wrong" behavior is always a great thing.


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