# Why do people hate...



## petz (May 27, 2010)

This might be an old question, but I'm always wanting to learn more...

Why do people hate Cesar MilaN the dog whisper so much? I see his show and see the results he is getting.

Most trainers use rewards & SOME type of punishment for training. Even if the punishment is simply ignoring the dog. 

I wonder if the 'lack of respect' for his training is solid or just jealously?


Thanks...


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Get ready for some fireworks.

Trainers criticize his outdated approach. The outdated methods he uses are based on dominance theory, a shoddy theory that has been widely disproven. 

His use of physical punishment (corrections) is generally unnecessary and rather dangerous to promote. He does it with his charismatic smile and justifies what he does with the "this is what the mother/pack leader would do" line so that people don't think it's all that bad. If you watch the dogs on the show, you can see some of them are in a shut down mode.

He gets quick results, but while positive punishment seems to get what you want in the short term, long term results are generally worse. There is a time and place for punishment, but too much can go wrong using physical punishment. Average people watching the show who try to employ what they see can really screw their dog up. It's not CM's fault, but that's the fallout.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

I'm with qingcong - You've opened up quite the can of worms. Though this is a topic that's brought up maybe once a month here, so I don't even know if people care about it anymore 

I'm not an expert and I'm not really going to voice my opinion on it, but I'm always interested in what others think about dog training. Let's just say, if there's nothing else on TV, I watch the show to see dogs. That's pretty much it. 

And for future reference, it's Cesar MilaN, not MilaM


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

I've never watched his show, and I know that there are a lot of fans so I asked this same question a while back.

I understand he uses a lot of aversive training techniques, physical punishment and has a domination mentality as qingcong said. None of this I agree with. Once people told me that, I basically decided never to watch his show, purchase his products or support him in any way. 

If I can't communicate with and train my dog using positive methods then I have no business having a dog.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Also, it's Cesar MiLLan. Two Ls


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

qingcong said:


> Also, it's Cesar MiLLan. Two Ls


Bahahaha I got so hung up on the N, I forgot the 2 Ls 

Thanks for pointing that out


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

barbaric methods, unsound science, irritating noises, irresponsible blatant flashy displays of dominance techniques...i could go on and on and on and on..but ill spare you the novel and say "and a whole lot more"


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The main thing I don't like is that he has a very natural way with dogs. And he makes it seem like anybody could do what he does. Which isn't true, not everybody has a way with dogs like he does.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

14 hours between the last 2 posts. A good sign....


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

I was "dogless" for quite a few years...then I happened to find Ceasr on the Nat Geo channel...I never really thought that I would ever be a dog owner again, so...I watched his episodes for strictly entertainment value only at the time...Besides his extremely white teeth, I found Cesar to have an endearing personality, &,find his laugh "infectious" if that even sounds normal...he has taken on some cases that honestly would have scared the mess outta me...he has tackled some extremely-what would seem "unfixable" dogs, & has worked the tar outta them....in those reguards, I DO have respect for the man....throw rocks at me if you disagree...I think that for some dogs, at certain times in their lives, when they are having "issues", Cesar has been the one to step up to the plate to try to fix some of the oddest dog issues...I DONT do that alpha roll crap & such, nor have I ever dealt w/some of his high /red zone cases before, but...I personally don't "diss" the man too much for the red zone cases that the show has focused on...Like-him//love-him??? Not really..but...I do think that he does have handeling skills outside of what most of the norm handlers have. I find him "interesting", &, will leave it at that...


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Here's an excellent source which covers the flawed philosophy and everything else:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I wonder if the 'lack of respect' for his training is solid or just jealously?


It's solid. If it were jealousy, you'd see people bashing Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

yappypappymom said:


> I was "dogless" for quite a few years...then I happened to find Ceasr on the Nat Geo channel...I never really thought that I would ever be a dog owner again, so...I watched his episodes for strictly entertainment value only at the time...Besides his extremely white teeth, I found Cesar to have an endearing personality, &,find his laugh "infectious" if that even sounds normal...he has taken on some cases that honestly would have scared the mess outta me...he has tackled some extremely-what would seem "unfixable" dogs, & has worked the tar outta them....in those reguards, I DO have respect for the man....throw rocks at me if you disagree...I think that for some dogs, at certain times in their lives, when they are having "issues", Cesar has been the one to step up to the plate to try to fix some of the oddest dog issues...I DONT do that alpha roll crap & such, nor have I ever dealt w/some of his high /red zone cases before, but...I personally don't "diss" the man too much for the red zone cases that the show has focused on...Like-him//love-him??? Not really..but...I do think that he does have handeling skills outside of what most of the norm handlers have. I find him "interesting", &, will leave it at that...



I kind of have similar opinions to you. I respect the guy - he has an uncommon talent, a very direct way with his body language, and a remarkable zen-ness. The truth is though, many people have rehabilitated dogs with equal issues using less forceful methods. 

What qualifies as abuse is very much up to our own interpretation and is a whole other discussion. Millan can pull off those techniques you see on TV because he is good. However, the average person trying to follow his advice will inevitably screw up. The risks of doing punishment wrong are immense, but the risks from doing positive training wrong are considerably less.


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## snark (Apr 25, 2010)

Can't say I care for him at all but he does have good marketing skills... The only show I saw (never cared to watch his shows ever again after that) was the one with the dog who was afraid of slick wood floors. All he did was force the poor animal to go back and forth across the floor until it totally shut down - then he pronounced it cured.

That show really touched base with me because I had a Rottie mix who was afraid of wood floors, for the very good reason that she was arthritic in the hips and quite likely to fall. She was also a very timid dog, who could have easily been turned into a fear biter (and at 110 lbs. she could have done a lot of damage). CM's method would have gotten him (or whoever was trying to force her across the floor) bitten, damaged her confidence and destroyed whatever trust she had in people - and for what? Proving one's dominance over a fearful dog? No, thank you.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> barbaric methods, unsound science, irritating noises, irresponsible blatant flashy displays of dominance techniques...i could go on and on and on and on..but ill spare you the novel and say "and a whole lot more"





RonE said:


> It's solid. If it were jealousy, you'd see people bashing Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell.


Yep.

(10char)


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

snark said:


> That show really touched base with me because I had a Rottie mix who was afraid of wood floors, for the very good reason that she was arthritic in the hips and quite likely to fall. She was also a very timid dog, who could have easily been turned into a fear biter (and at 110 lbs. she could have done a lot of damage). CM's method would have gotten him (or whoever was trying to force her across the floor) bitten, damaged her confidence and destroyed whatever trust she had in people - and for what? Proving one's dominance over a fearful dog? No, thank you.


Now we're talking. There are ethical implications to what we do that apply to all of us, not just Cesar Millan. Which is more harmful, not challenging a dog to conquer a life skill for the sake of not stressing it out or challenging a dog so that it can conquer a possibly important life skill? It's not about proving dominance over a dog in this case, it's about the welfare of the animal. I'm not really taking sides, there are valid points to both sides, and it really depends on the situation.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

RonE said:


> It's solid. If it were jealousy, you'd see people bashing Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell.


^^^^+100

As one of the new puppy owner/idiots who got sucked into his brand of training for a moment, I can personally tell you that at least half of what he's selling (operative word here) is not only a load of b.s., it's dangerous. He may be able to get results using his methods (although I wonder if they really stick), but in the hands of average people like me I think they are disastrous.

Thank goodness I had the sense to seek out knowledge from many other kinds of trainers like Dunbar, McConnell, Wilde, etc. at the same time or I would have one ruined dog today.


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## snark (Apr 25, 2010)

qingcong said:


> Now we're talking. There are ethical implications to what we do that apply to all of us, not just Cesar Millan. Which is more harmful, not challenging a dog to conquer a life skill for the sake of not stressing it out or challenging a dog so that it can conquer a possibly important life skill? It's not about proving dominance over a dog in this case, it's about the welfare of the animal. I'm not really taking sides, there are valid points to both sides, and it really depends on the situation.


Walking across a wood floor was not a necessary life skill for her (that's what runner rugs are for!) As for her timid nature, I carried treats at all times when she was out in public with me (which was often, she was my velcro dog) so the few people who were not afraid of the large Rottie-looking dog could make her experience a positive one.

I changed vets for that reason - from one who slapped a muzzle on her, because 'she was a Rottie', to my current vet who was willing to sit on the floor and feed her treats before attempting to give shots or examine her. (He did always let me handle her head and raise her lips so he could look at her teeth. Lol!)


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> That show really touched base with me because I had a Rottie mix who was afraid of wood floors, for the very good reason that she was arthritic in the hips and quite likely to fall. She was also a very timid dog, who could have easily been turned into a fear biter (and at 110 lbs. she could have done a lot of damage). CM's method would have gotten him (or whoever was trying to force her across the floor) bitten, damaged her confidence and destroyed whatever trust she had in people - and for what? Proving one's dominance over a fearful dog? No, thank you.


I missed this. Yes, I think his methods are perhaps the most injurious to fearful/anxious dogs. People watch the show and see what appears to be a quick fix, and then proceed to shove their dog in to every situation that scares them without thinking about the context of the fear (ie. your dog having joint issues). They also aren't the ones watching the show who notice the dilated pupils, heavy panting, lip licking, ears back, etc.

It also bypasses the most reasonable first step in handling behavior issues, which is getting blood work and a thorough vet check up.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> That show really touched base with me because I had a Rottie mix who was afraid of wood floors, for the very good reason that she was arthritic in the hips and quite likely to fall. She was also a very timid dog, who could have easily been turned into a fear biter (and at 110 lbs. she could have done a lot of damage). CM's method would have gotten him (or whoever was trying to force her across the floor) bitten, damaged her confidence and destroyed whatever trust she had in people - and for what? Proving one's dominance over a fearful dog? No, thank you.


As I have stated before, I have only seen one of Cesar's programs and am completely neutral on him. But do you suppose that if the Rottie-mix above had been taken to Cesar (where he could read dog) and he had also been told about dog's arthritic conditions would he then have tried to solve problem the same way. 

Just curious and stirring the pot a bit.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

yappypappymom said:


> I was "dogless" for quite a few years...then I happened to find Ceasr on the Nat Geo channel...I never really thought that I would ever be a dog owner again, so...I watched his episodes for strictly entertainment value only at the time...Besides his extremely white teeth, I found Cesar to have an endearing personality, &,find his laugh "infectious" if that even sounds normal...he has taken on some cases that honestly would have scared the mess outta me...he has tackled some extremely-what would seem "unfixable" dogs, & has worked the tar outta them....in those reguards, I DO have respect for the man....throw rocks at me if you disagree...I think that for some dogs, at certain times in their lives, when they are having "issues", Cesar has been the one to step up to the plate to try to fix some of the oddest dog issues...I DONT do that alpha roll crap & such, nor have I ever dealt w/some of his high /red zone cases before, but...I personally don't "diss" the man too much for the red zone cases that the show has focused on...Like-him//love-him??? Not really..but...I do think that he does have handeling skills outside of what most of the norm handlers have. I find him "interesting", &, will leave it at that...


No rocks thrown from here. I'm not CM's biggest fan, but I certainly don't hate him. Watching his first season as opposed to the latest shows and it seems (at least to me) that he's evolving into a better trainer. Anyone who can see that there might be another, better way to work with a dog who isn't responding to the treatment gets some gold stars in my book. (I haven't watched every single episode, but I know in some of his first episodes he basically exhausted or put dogs into shut down mode so he could say he "won"...in later episodes I've seen him switch his approach. One case that sticks out in my mind was a boxer who attacked the door when other dogs walked by. The "touch" and "sound" didn't faze the dog in the slightest, and instead of battling the dog he used food to manage his attention.) My guess is, since he grew up on a farm (a foreign one to boot), dogs were probably treated like livestock. Do as your told or be punished. I think since he's been in the states as long as he has, he's realized there are different ways of getting your point across.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

To the show's credit, discussing a dog's vet history is not really important for the sake of the show. They very well could have discussed the dog's health before it happened and we just never saw it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I missed this. Yes, I think his methods are perhaps the most injurious to fearful/anxious dogs. People watch the show and see what appears to be a quick fix, and then proceed to shove their dog in to every situation that scares them without thinking about the context of the fear (ie. your dog having joint issues). They also aren't the ones watching the show who notice the dilated pupils, heavy panting, lip licking, ears back, etc.
> 
> It also bypasses the most reasonable first step in handling behavior issues, which is getting blood work and a thorough vet check up.


I wish I could remember the whole show, but one dog (it was called an aussie pit bull mix) that was kept in the garage. The dog IMO wasn't safe to have as a pet, even after CM worked with the dog, and lived wearing a muzzle.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

you'd see people bashing Ian Dunbar and Patricia McConnell.>>>

Funny you say that, Im on a few lists. One recently had a thread on how Ian is a essentially a booksmart nerd who you never actually see train a dog. I pointed out a vid of him giving leash corrections and advocating controlled flooding which calmed them a bit.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

wvasko said:


> As I have stated before, I have only seen one of Cesar's programs and am completely neutral on him. But do you suppose that if the Rottie-mix above had been taken to Cesar (where he could read dog) and he had also been told about dog's arthritic conditions would he then have tried to solve problem the same way.
> 
> Just curious and stirring the pot a bit.



Stirring the pot? Well, it has been quiet here lately.  LOL

I have to wonder this myself though. I have watched quite a few of his shows when at friends or at work. I have not seen a whole lot of the "aggressive approach" to dog training that people talk about. I think that over the past few years, he has maybe softened up his techniques some. I think that he (like any decent person) has maybe learned from others as well and puts into practice some of his new skills. Why shouldn't he grow as well? 

I for one am not willing to condemn the man in any way. I don't use any of the dominance type of training either. My whole problem with the show is that so many people are not intelligent enough to understand the "Do not try these techniques at home" warning at the beginning of the show. Cesar Millan has good timing in his corrections but about 99% of the public that watches that show probably does not. Correcting a dog at the wrong time can have a very negative effect from aggression to shutting down. Making your dog afraid of you isn't a big plus, it is a negative.

I don't really get why anyone would have such strong feelings on the show. I think if you watch is for entertainment, it is a good show.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I don't really get why anyone would have such strong feelings on the show. I think if you watch is for entertainment, it is a good show.


Ditto, It's TV.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Op, Have you seen the Episode with Cotton? the American Eskimo dog?

do you know what happened to him after he appeared on Cesar?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

qingcong said:


> To the show's credit, discussing a dog's vet history is not really important for the sake of the show. They very well could have discussed the dog's health before it happened and we just never saw it.


Might not be important for the sake of the show, but it IS important if the unassuming viewer watches and then decides to try the techniques on their dog without exploring medical causes first.

And yeah, there's a disclaimer.. but the people that I see CHH'ing their dogs down the street are obviously not following it.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Watching his first season as opposed to the latest shows and it seems (at least to me) that he's evolving into a better trainer. Anyone who can see that there might be another, better way to work with a dog who isn't responding to the treatment gets some gold stars in my book.


I would agree with this - I believe he has been doing a lot of learning and adapting, which I assume all good trainers do. I do wish he'd drop all that mystical hoo-doo talk, though, and stick with simple behavioral explanations. 



Inga said:


> My whole problem with the show is that so many people are not intelligent enough to understand the "Do not try these techniques at home" warning at the beginning of the show. Cesar Millan has good timing in his corrections but about 99% of the public that watches that show probably does not.


Bingo.



Inga said:


> I don't really get why anyone would have such strong feelings on the show. I think if you watch is for entertainment, it is a good show.


But this is where I do have a big issue with the show. People do not view it as entertainment. They view it as educational and follow the advice given in the show. And that can be dangerous.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I honestly struggle to find the entertainment value in watching a man using outdated and/or unnecessary methods on dogs when there are other options. I am sure that many of those dogs could have been trained using other means. 

Honestly, Cesar himself makes the show in to something that's educational by promoting his ideology on his website, answering an advice column, etc. 

Granted, I haven't watched the more recent episodes of his show, and quite frankly now I'm extremely interested to see if he's changed at all with his implementation of those ideologies.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

I would agree with this - I believe he has been doing a lot of learning and adapting, which I assume all good trainers do. I do wish he'd drop all that mystical hoo-doo talk, though, and stick with simple behavioral explanations. 


*What hoo-doo talk? (Keep in mind I'm not an avid CM follower; the only thing I can come up with is energy talk and stuff, which I 100% agree with, and implement in my daily life. *


But this is where I do have a big issue with the show. People do not view it as entertainment. They view it as educational and follow the advice given in the show. And that can be dangerous.

*It is dangerous indeed, which is more or less a problem with JQP than CM. BTW, Inga, great post. 100% spot on IMO *


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> I honestly struggle to find the entertainment value in watching a man using outdated and/or unnecessary methods on dogs when there are other options. I am sure that many of those dogs could have been trained using other means.
> 
> Honestly, Cesar himself makes the show in to something that's educational by promoting his ideology on his website, answering an advice column, etc.
> 
> Granted, I haven't watched the more recent episodes of his show, and quite frankly now I'm extremely interested to see if he's changed at all with his implementation of those ideologies.


I think I'll DVR the show and keep an eye on the newer ones vs. the older ones as well. From what I've seen, he seems to be evolving into something better 
The most controversial episode I've read disagreements on was with the malamute who would come up the leash at his owner when he was frustrated. Some said CM hung the dog, some said CM was holding the lead away in self defense. My (unpopular) opinion was he was protecting himself from the dog who was leaping up at him, but granted, putting the dog in a situation to see other dogs/get pissed/be corrected in 1/2 second was the fault of Milan. JMO.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Good things about CM:
He appears to be a caring individual.
He has great charisma and a talent for communication to the people.
He has IMPECCABLE timing.
He has a very zen quality (likely developed through his years of martial arts training).

Bad things about CM:
Overuse of punishment 
Misinterpretation of behaviours (he often would see dominance in what are classical APPEASEMENT behaviours or fearful behaviours)
He used flooding regularly throughout his first two seasons, which can be extremely psychologically damaging to a phobic animal.

Things I have noticed he is altering:
His use of the D word has been diminishing over the three seasons that I own on dvd. 
He is more likely to ascertain fearful behaviours, even if they are somewhat aggressive.
He is more likely to try positive reinforcement and classical conditioning in some cases.

I wish they would stop showing the older episodes as reruns, as he DOES seem to be evolving.

My biggest peeve of all is the "successful" rehabs of his redzone cases almost always involved pinning the dog at the vagus nerve (essentially paralyzing the dog, not getting it to submit...again most likely learned in his martial arts class..for an example see the episode with the bulldog in texas) running the dog until it was physically exhausted and/or correcting the dog until it shuts down. Not my idea of good training. 

If he continues to evolve then Yay. I still am ticked at all the people I run into that think it's okay to roll their dog, sssst them into submission and think that because the dog wants to sit up in their laps it is trying to be dominant. Makes me ill.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Good things about CM:
> He appears to be a caring individual.
> He has great charisma and a talent for communication to the people.
> He has IMPECCABLE timing.
> ...


You nailed it. Gold star for you 
I never even thought about the vagus nerve, but I'll watch for that. I agree, I wish they'd stop showing the first 2-3 seasons and stick to the later ones. It would really impress me if CM would do a few case studies on HIMSELF from his earlier years, and talk to the audience about what he did wrong in those situations (flooding, alpha rolls, corrections, timing, etc). That would be a marvelous learning tool for everyone, maybe even him!
In Suzanne Clothiers book, there was a chapter devoted to "percieved dominance". She talked about a trainer telling her that one of her dogs (Carson, I think) was trying to "top her scent" by laying behind her on the couch! It was a wonderful chapter. If I sit down in my chair, Tag likes to sit on my shoulder (my little parrot), Dude at my feet, and 2 cats in my lap. At the rate I'm going, they're going to hog tie me in a crate and finish off the contents of my kitchen 
ETA: I've said it once, and I'll say it again. CM on his worst day is 1,000,000 times better than Brad Pittison on his best day. Not only was he a piss poor trainer, he had no people skills whatsoever...


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## Ramble On Rose (Apr 21, 2010)

I take anything on TV with a grain of salt. I've watched the show and would not try some of the things he does because I have no experience with the situations presented. That said, I enjoy watching the show mostly because it has dogs. I also enjoy reading his magazine, it's more interesting than Dog Fancy.


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## grace (Apr 15, 2010)

I have mixed feelings about CM. I have had some rescue dogs with some major major issues that were extremely hard to rehab, and I was able to do it using a few bits and pieces of his "methods". Overall, I've had great outcomes, but I have my own imperfect style. 

I will say that I love his advocacy for exercising your dog. I see too many dog owners complaining that their dog is unfixable when it is simply bored. Leaving a dog chained up in the yard or in the house all day and night is not productive, and whatever terrible habits the dog picks up due to this must be blamed on the owner. A proper amount of exercise can do miracles for a "problem" dog. It definitely won't fix it, but things like excessive barking, digging, jumping, chewing, begging, etc etc can be greatly reduced by getting your dog out for and hour or two a day. And these are some of the most common reasons dogs are given up. If I am ever short on time to spend with my dogs, I never skip out on a least a short walk each day. I know it will save me the trouble of cleaning up the pieces of my couch afterward. 

I also agree with his warning when adopting a dog: to never get a dog with a higher energy level than you. If you live a sedentary lifestyle, don't get a husky unless you have the means to ensure it gets the exercise it needs. The reality that many people want to face is that they simply need to exercise their dog. Dogs weren't intended to be lawn ornaments. As soon as I start seeing behavioral issues in my dogs, I start exercising them more and the problem usually resolves itself. 

Anyways, that's my two bits. As I said, I don't follow his methods, but some things he says pretty smart about.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> CM on his worst day is 1,000,000 times better than Brad Pittison on his best day. Not only was he a piss poor trainer, he had no people skills whatsoever...



I've seen that Pittison name thrown around here (never in a good way LOL) but I've never seen him at all. Should I try to find something on YouTube, or should I just say "ignorance is bliss" and move on?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

KBLover said:


> I've seen that Pittison name thrown around here (never in a good way LOL) but I've never seen him at all. Should I try to find something on YouTube, or should I just say "ignorance is bliss" and move on?


I think it's actually Pattison if you want to look him up. Depends how high your tolerance is for violence against dogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I've seen that Pittison name thrown around here (never in a good way LOL) but I've never seen him at all. Should I try to find something on YouTube, or should I just say "ignorance is bliss" and move on?


there used to be a bunch of vids of his seminars on youtube that are all gone now. last time i found one i had to go to the russian equivalent of youtube to find it and even that one is gone.

the vid showed him quite literally kicking a dog in the face and hitting it with a leash and then when the owner protests..he almost turns and hits her...stopping just short when he realizes its a person..will try to find it again...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> there used to be a bunch of vids of his seminars on youtube that are all gone now. last time i found one i had to go to the russian equivalent of youtube to find it and even that one is gone.
> 
> the vid showed him quite literally kicking a dog in the face and hitting it with a leash and then when the owner protests..he almost turns and hits her...stopping just short when he realizes its a person..will try to find it again...



Holy crap. That's insane.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Whether you love him or hate him, you should watch this episode 
http://www.hulu.com/watch/89602/dog-whisperer-inside-puppy-mills

I personally always appreciate any person in the spot light that is willing to use their fame to expose this kind of crap. Good job Cesar Millan. "We are not honoring their way of living"

Edit: I can't believe that anyone would even consider allowing Brad Pattison to touch their dog in any way. Talk about Cruel. I do not believe Cesar is downright mean, he may use methods I do not agree with and would never use but I do believe his heart is in the right place. Brad Pattison makes me think of a sociopath that enjoys hurting others. How in the world this man became popular is beyond me.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

As for Cesar, I like watching his shows now and then, but personally wouldn't practice any of his techniques. I just think there's much, much better ways to train your dog, like Clicker Training, Positive Reinforcement, and Play. But just thought I'd jump in here because someone had sent me an interesting video, but has a really powerful message. Be aware, if you have very sensitive ears, then don't watch, as there is a bit of language (F bombs) in it. But it's also typical of Charlie Murphy anyways, Eddie Murphy's older brother.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXuj3Kss9c4


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Holy crap. That's insane.


Yes, this Brad Pattison guy appears to have issues. He's an example of the fallout that dominance/punishment based methods can create. In the hands of an unstable human like him, it's extremely violent. 

There used to be some videos of him slapping dogs on the head and popping the leash for no reason. I can't find them anymore, they've all been removed. I think that he's been banned in certain parts of Canada for his abusive methods. 

He created his own dog training certification called the CET. It's amazing how a guy with completely no skill can rise to the point where he teaches other people. From what I gather, he knows nothing about dog behavior, nothing about OC, CC or the like. Somehow he qualifies as a dog trainer?


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## andrewM (May 28, 2010)

They're just jealous. Some people are racist too, that's why they don't like him. I think he's a smart guy and a good trainer. He knows how to handle those "red zone" dogs, the kind that are aggressive.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

andrewM said:


> They're just jealous. Some people are racist too, that's why they don't like him. I think he's a smart guy and a good trainer. He knows how to handle those "red zone" dogs, the kind that are aggressive.


i dont like Cesar. 

however...I have a half hispanic son and i find that "Some people are racist" REALLY offensive.

i also work with aggressive dogs and have nice success...and im a VOLUNTEER trainer working with aggressive dogs. i dont care about being paid for what i do.

so the jealousy comment is pretty freakin offensive too.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

Inga, I watched that link that you provided!! I was so sad & sickened, yet, happy for the dogs that got a "second chance"...Cesar HELPED these dogs immensely, &...the proof is in the puddin!! I suggest EVERYONE watch that episode, & then report back here that he(CM) is an ignorant trainer who is mean to dogs...that episode got me teary-eyed more than once!! ....such a saaaaddd topic


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

yappypappymom said:


> Inga, I watched that link that you provided!! I was so sad & sickened, yet, happy for the dogs that got a "second chance"...Cesar HELPED these dogs immensely, &...the proof is in the puddin!! I suggest EVERYONE watch that episode, & then report back here that he(CM) is an ignorant trainer who is mean to dogs...that episode got me teary-eyed more than once!! ....such a saaaaddd topic


watched it. was sad. doesnt really change my opinion of him.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> watched it. was sad. doesnt really change my opinion of him.


 Seriously?? In that episode alone, you STILL find him to be "unreasonable" or under the assumtpion that he is "whitless" about dogs??..I think that he is a cruesader for the "underdogs"...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

yappypappymom said:


> Seriously?? In that episode alone, you STILL find him to be "unreasonable" or under the assumtpion that he is "whitless" about dogs??..I think that he is a cruesader for the "underdogs"...


no. i still see him as doing more harm than good.

when he does more good than harm..then ill change my mind.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

Well, we must agree to DISagree Ma'ma...no harm in that; my 8 yr. old thinks that I should allow pizza for breakfast...ummm..thats not gonna happen EITHER ..


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Ill change my mind when his show stops airing or when he actually starts teaching real training methods. one or the other. when he totally ditches the dominance bs.

my opinions come from my experiences

i volunteer my time to work with low income families who have dogs that need a behaviorist but the families cant afford them. the goal is to keep these dogs out of shelter and out of the line for euthanization..

EVERY SINGLE ONE..no exceptions..watches a couple episodes of cesar..and then ends up running screaming to me to fix the disasters they created.

you'd be sick of him too if you dealt with what ive dealt with,

eta

and you can say its not his fault but...his show is directly responsible. 

if i hear "but Cesar says..." one more freakin time...i will probably implode.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

yappypappymom said:


> Seriously?? In that episode alone, you STILL find him to be "unreasonable" or under the assumtpion that he is "whitless" about dogs??..I think that he is a cruesader for the "underdogs"...



It doesn't particularly change mine either. Granted, I'm probably not as down on him as zim is, but my main "issue" with him is mostly in (some of) his training techniques (some make sense, if only for a different reason than he may give), and, yes, I call it training. In every episode I've seen, he's teaching (or explaining to an owner how to teach) a dog to do or not do something. That, by definition, is training a behavior into (or out of) a dog, or teaching someone how to train a behavior into (or out of) a dog no matter what he/his marketing department wants to call it.

I think it's great that he's speaking out against puppy mills. I think that is something all the "all-stars" of the dog world should do so, along with cruelty, etc. I don't think he's clueless about dogs, so there's nothing to change for me there. It also doesn't change my view of him as a person, as it wasn't really negative.

I don't "hate" him (that word gets thrown around way too much, imo). I just disagree with some of his approaches to some of the dogs (especially the fearful/insecure/anxious ones that are already soft and would benefit from some CC as well as being shown how to act in a situation - to me he's solving just half the problem).


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> so the jealousy comment is pretty freakin offensive too.


I completely agree...............


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

yappypappymom said:


> Seriously?? In that episode alone, you STILL find him to be "unreasonable" or under the assumtpion that he is "whitless" about dogs??..I think that he is a cruesader for the "underdogs"...


Do you consider Cesar a trainer? Even when he specifically states in his shows that he's NOT A TRAINER, but rather a REHABILITATOR? That's why so many people go wrong, they use Cesars techniques when their dogs really don't need rehabilitation. I don't get it when people say Cesar is a good trainer when he himself even says he's not a trainer.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> Do you consider Cesar a trainer? Even when he specifically states in his shows that he's NOT A TRAINER, but rather a REHABILITATOR? That's why so many people go wrong, they use Cesars techniques when their dogs really don't need rehabilitation. I don't get it when people say Cesar is a good trainer when he himself even says he's not a trainer.


How is he not a trainer when he attempts to teach a dog to do (or not do) behaviors?

That's...pretty much what training is - teaching dog either a behavior, not to do a behavior, or how to use a behavior he already knows.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

Well, obviously, as far as CM goes, I am still in the "minority"....I just really do think that he DOES have some helpul insight as to how dogs think & interpret things....in MY book, he's NO "dummy"...I would rather have HIM instruct me in relations to other pet trainers(ie-Pets mart employees)...again, ready your rocks, but, I just dont think that CM is an "enemy" to helping solve dog behavioural issues....


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> Do you consider Cesar a trainer? Even when he specifically states in his shows that he's NOT A TRAINER, but rather a REHABILITATOR? That's why so many people go wrong, they use Cesars techniques when their dogs really don't need rehabilitation. I don't get it when people say Cesar is a good trainer when he himself even says he's not a trainer.


the problem with his show is that it's for ENTERTAINMENT.

id be...ok with it if he actually went into details...actually taught people watching the show when and where and how to recognize different things...how to apply techniques...talked about medical reasons for aggression etc...recommended seeking a behaviorist... and didnt use so much unnecessary aversion. 

im dealing with another Cesar induced case...a dog bite..to a three year old...45 stitches in the childs face...the reason? the owner was attempting to alpha roll the dog. Why? resource guarding.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

andrewM said:


> They're just jealous.


And what, exactly, are people jealous of? His fame and fortune? Might as well be jealous of Paris Hilton. His way with dogs? As mentioned a few pages ago, it would make more sense to be jealous of a real behaviorist, like Patricia McConnell. (I am, in fact, a bit jealous of Dr McConnell, but you won't find me criticizing her, because she's the real deal - not a television personality.)



andrewM said:


> Some people are racist too, that's why they don't like him.


That's ludicrous. It would be equally ludicrous to suggest that some folks like him BECAUSE he's Hispanic.

So what's it gonna be: Jealous or racist? To be both would be truly conflicted.

I find Cesar personable and charismatic and would probably enjoy having a few beers with him. I just wouldn't let him near my dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

KBLover said:


> Holy crap. That's insane.


I've only seen one video where he was correcting a dog and I had no idea what the correction was for. it was pretty stupid.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the problem with his show is that it's for ENTERTAINMENT.
> 
> id be...ok with it if he actually went into details...actually taught people watching the show when and where and how to recognize different things...how to apply techniques...talked about medical reasons for aggression etc...recommended seeking a behaviorist... and didnt use so much unnecessary aversion.
> 
> im dealing with another Cesar induced case...a dog bite..to a three year old...45 stitches in the childs face...the reason? the owner was attempting to alpha roll the dog. Why? resource guarding.


CM didn't invent the alpha roll, though. People watch the show and get stupid ideas, just like kids watch Jackass and get stupid ideas and get themselves hurt. I don't think the problems lie so much with TV as they do JQP with too much time on their hands.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> CM didn't invent the alpha roll, though. People watch the show and get stupid ideas, just like kids watch Jackass and get stupid ideas and get themselves hurt. I don't think the problems lie so much with TV as they do JQP with too much time on their hands.


For sure he did not invent the alpha roll, I could be wrong but I think I read it in a book by the Skete monks and it was used by them way back. Since I come before Cesar, Leerburg, and other assorted nowadays experts. I can only say that it was there but not used as much or at the very least just not bragged about, If the assorted dog training TV shows have done anything they have spread the word. Even if a TV trainer does not use the alpha roll it is mentioned as something not to do. This in turn just immediately causes some people to try it.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> CM didn't invent the alpha roll, though. People watch the show and get stupid ideas, just like kids watch Jackass and get stupid ideas and get themselves hurt. I don't think the problems lie so much with TV as they do JQP with too much time on their hands.


and knowing what i know about this guy...had he not seen it on the show..he'd have NEVER heard of it and his kid wouldnt look like something that got attacked by a facehugger from Aliens..

the guarding issue was a non issue..now its a "this dog has to be rehomed or pts because the kid is absolutely terrified of it now."

thanks a lot Cesar.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> and knowing what i know about this guy...had he not seen it on the show..he'd have NEVER heard of it and his kid wouldnt look like something that got attacked by a facehugger from Aliens..
> 
> the guarding issue was a non issue..now its a "this dog has to be rehomed or pts because the kid is absolutely terrified of it now."
> 
> thanks a lot Cesar.


I'm just curious, but what did the kid/dog (by "guarding") do before the owner tried to alpha roll it? And how did the kid get attacked when the owner was doing the rolling? (Not questioning your judgement, because I respect your knowledge. I'm just genuinely curious).


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Jealous or racist? Ay, that would be the straw man argument. If you don't have a better argument, then saying nothing would be smarter.

CM's methods (at least in the past seasons) involve cutting off airways and excessive use of leash corrections. And YES he is a trainer, like KB says. Just because he says he's not, doesn't make it true, and just because it seems on TV that he's successful also doesn't make it true. Punishment can and does work if applied correctly, but at what COST?

Regarding alpha rolls:

I've heard it said that if a dog will allow you to roll him he doesn't need it, and if he needs it he won't allow it. Forcing an animal with jaws that are strong enough to break bone to do ANYTHING that will cause him to feel the need to protect himself is pure idiocy. 99 % of the people out there do not have the timing, strength or accuracy to be able to even attempt an alpha roll without causing injury to themselves or to the dogs. 

The alpha roll was recommended by the Monks of New Skete in their FIRST book from several decades ago. Their republished version of the book has the recommendation removed AND a disclaimer added. The problem there of course is that the older version is still floating around on people's bookshelves.

Brad Pattison has a website, a book and a tv show "The Other End of the Leash" that airs here in Canada. IT was briefly on Animal Planet in the US as "In the Dog House". It didn't last long on AP. 
He's a monster, aggressive and rude. He uses intimidation on both people AND dogs. Between him and that Dogfather guy it makes me embarassed to be a Canuck sometimes.

He IS on my list of people to meet someday. Could be interesting, I really really really hate bullies.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Brad Pattison has a website, a book and a tv show "The Other End of the Leash" that airs here in Canada. IT was briefly on Animal Planet in the US as "In the Dog House". It didn't last long on AP.
> He's a monster, aggressive and rude. He uses intimidation on both people AND dogs. Between him and that Dogfather guy it makes me embarassed to be a Canuck sometimes.


I have never seen this man in action. Now that I have I feel as though I could cry. UGH!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have said it a thousand times that I would not mirror his "rehabilitation" methods at my house with my dogs but, just like I do not blame a gun for the murder when a person uses it, I do not blame Cesar for idiots that can't read warnings and think they can learn to train a dog by watching a National Geographic show.

I suppose that one could blame National Geographic channel as well but I think most of what they put on is worth seeing. I guess I prefer to try to see the good in everyone and not hang to tightly on to the negatives. I do give credit to Millan for growing in his training/rehabilitation methods. I have seen far more use of treats and praise in the last few shows. I also believe strongly in giving credit where credit is due.

I think each one of us could find negatives in just about anyone. Ever since I saw that silly show "America's Greatest Dog" I really really do not care for Victoria Stillwell. I can't stand her manner/personality. I think she is a snobby, condescending jerk BUT, I think she does give some valuable advice. I do not agree with everything she does either. 



> I think people just disagree with his training methods. Everyone has a different way to train. Also, everyone treats their dog differently. Some people kind in mind that this are 'animals', other believe they are equal to humans, etc...


 I do not believe for a second that my dogs are human beings but I do believe that they are LIVING beings and I do think that if I can get the same results with kindness, rather then harsh methods, I will do it. 

We live in a world where everyone wants a quick fix or bale out. People want a dog so they rush out and get it with little or no thought as to which breed is right for them or how they will deal with the dog. A few months or years down the line, they realize they are in over their heads and they seek help but just like the immediate need for the dog, they want an immediate cure to their problems. Watching the shows like Cesar, it makes it appear that the fix is almost immediately. Honestly, some of those issues could be close to immediate if the people in the house change a few simple things but many are not. Many are problems that took time to create and will take time to solve. Too bad the people watching the show, are not smart enough to realize that.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I don't think many on this forum would suggest that dogs are equal to humans. Many of us believe that, in some respects, they are superior.

But, like humans, they deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. Successful trainers know that, aside from the ethics and morality involved, you can get more from a dog through willing cooperation than through fear.

Training methods and our knowledge of canine behavior is evolving rapidly, but not all trainers are evolving. Just as you'll still find swimming instructors that throw their young pupils into the deep end during the first class,* you can still find abusive, throwback trainers. They may even be charming and charismatic, unless you're a dog or an observant owner.

*That's how I was "taught" to swim and it took some intense sessions with a competitive swimming coach to help me recover when I was older.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I honestly struggle to find the entertainment value in watching a man using outdated and/or unnecessary methods on dogs when there are other options.>>> 

TV is about rating and most seem to disagree as his ratings kill Its me or the dog. I like his show, I think his explanations are often wrong or simplistic. but he handles dogs well in most cases. In an ideal world I think the more pos approaches are prob best but time IS often a factor.


on the "valgus nerve" alpha roll. I think your looking into this a little to much, You are I may not agree with holding the gog down untill it relaxes(or exausted) but he is not pinching the valgus nerve. Its a little deeper


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

KBLover said:


> How is he not a trainer when he attempts to teach a dog to do (or not do) behaviors?





yappypappymom said:


> Well, obviously, as far as CM goes, I am still in the "minority"....I just really do think that he DOES have some helpul insight as to how dogs think & interpret things....in MY book, he's NO "dummy"...I would rather have HIM instruct me in relations to other pet trainers(ie-Pets mart employees)...again, ready your rocks, but, I just dont think that CM is an "enemy" to helping solve dog behavioural issues....



That is exactly where we differ, but everyone has their own opinions, correct? That's what makes discussions a great thing, get all opinions out so people can make up their own ideas.

There's 2 reasons he's not a trainer, in my eyes. They are as follows:
1. He says himself that he is NOT A TRAINER, but a REHABILITATOR.
2. A trainer works towards long-term results. A Rehabilitator works towards short-term results, giving a clean slate so the owner can then seek out a trainer and start working on the long-term. This is exactly what I think Cesar does, and why he says he's Not a Trainer. He sets the dog up with a clean slate for proper training to begin afterwards.

Oh, and doesn't it also state at the beginning of his show not to use his techniques without first going to a professional?

And that is exactly why I won't use Cesar's techniques, even though I do like his show. There is only 1 Cesar. And too many people screw up their dogs because they think they know what Cesar does and why, when they really don't. And that's why people like zimandtakandgrrandmimi end up with so many people with problem dogs, dogs that may have been an easy fix with some Positive Training but are now really screwed up. I too work with dogs with issues on occasion, and even with the dogs being more screwed up, I've made more progress with Positive Training than some of the other trainers here locally that use more aversive training. And no, I'm not a Professional either, just beginning, and one of those other trainers has 30+ years. And I get better results? I wonder why, lol. I just do it for the love of the dog and don't care what those other trainers say. If you have to harshly pop the leash or string the dog up to get behavior change, you truely don't love the dog. The dog stops out of fear, not relationship.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> im dealing with another Cesar induced case...a dog bite..to a three year old...45 stitches in the childs face...the reason? the owner was attempting to alpha roll the dog. Why? resource guarding.


Ouch.......


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

CM doesn't call himself a trainer, he calls himself a dog behaviorist and a dog psychologist. However, behavior modification and training are both based around operant and classical conditioning. Being a behaviorist automatically qualifies him as a trainer.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

wvasko said:


> I've only seen one video where he was correcting a dog and I had no idea what the correction was for. it was pretty stupid.


And that's not the only one.....


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Cracker said:


> He's a monster, aggressive and rude. He uses intimidation on both people AND dogs. Between him and that Dogfather guy it makes me embarassed to be a Canuck sometimes.


No offense chief, but Canada really doesn't have much going for it anyways. I'd be embarrassed regardless of what dog stuff is going on there.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Lonewolfblue said:


> And that's not the only one.....





> And no, I'm not a Professional either, just beginning, and one of those other trainers has 30+ years. And I get better results? I wonder why, lol.


Please don't equate that years of doing something makes anyone in any line of work/trade etc good/great/excellent. With some it does, while others go down the fair/poor/terrible road.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I'm just curious, but what did the kid/dog (by "guarding") do before the owner tried to alpha roll it? And how did the kid get attacked when the owner was doing the rolling? (Not questioning your judgement, because I respect your knowledge. I'm just genuinely curious).


the kid was a bystander. the owner tried to pick up the dog's bone to move it off the carpet. the dog growled at him..so he alpha rolled it. He said that the dog started thrashing around and bit his hand, causing him to yank his hand back and the dog got free....still in freak out mode and snapped at the kid's face.

when i say that the guarding WAS a non issue..from what i can determine, he would just growl a little when you took his bone. easily fixable with a little trading game type training.

the dog is a 85 pound mutt. the kid weighs maybe 30-40 pounds. it was only one snap but the size of the dog made it a severe bite. the dog is staying with someone i know with no kids for now while i try to work with him. the owner comes over every day. he's desperate to find someone he knows who will take the dog. he's a nice guy..not the brightest light in the sky but not bad. and he's a low income single dad. he could lose his custody rights over this if mom decides to press the issue legally. 

and yes...the show is at fault here imo. it spreads information that is highly dangerous. i understand that Cesar has a right to do so but if he actually made a point in his show to TEACH HIS VIEWERS TOO.....this could possibly have been avoided.

i know this guy wouldnt have come across this any other way. He's illiterate. He cant read. he's a guatemalan immigrant. He was crying when he told me after i asked him why he didnt research what he was doing. 

the whole situation sucks abyssmally.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the kid was a bystander. the owner tried to pick up the dog's bone to move it off the carpet. the dog growled at him..so he alpha rolled it. He said that the dog started thrashing around and bit his hand, causing him to yank his hand back and the dog got free....still in freak out mode and snapped at the kid's face.
> 
> when i say that the guarding WAS a non issue..from what i can determine, he would just growl a little when you took his bone. easily fixable with a little trading game type training.
> 
> ...


Sad situation  I'm sorry for the family, what a horrible experience for all.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

qingcong said:


> No offense chief, but Canada really doesn't have much going for it anyways. I'd be embarrassed regardless of what dog stuff is going on there.


OT, but I sure did love Canada when I visited there. I could easily live there some day  
Back to dogs, who the heck is the Dogfather? I've never heard of him.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> and yes...the show is at fault here imo. it spreads information that is highly dangerous. i understand that Cesar has a right to do so but if he actually made a point in his show to TEACH HIS VIEWERS TOO.....this could possibly have been avoided.


Zim I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree. There is just no way you can stop stupidity. If there was a program called "Suicide's Anonymous" that explained different ways to commit suicide that you should not ever do and had a disclaimer "Please do not do any of these" there would be idiots doing all. As sad and pathetic as that sounds it is truth.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Zim I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree. There is just no way you can stop stupidity. If there was a program called "Suicide's Anonymous" that explained different ways to commit suicide that you should not ever do and had a disclaimer "Please do not do any of these" there would be idiots doing all. As sad and pathetic as that sounds it is truth.


this particular case isn't really one of stupidity though. he's uneducated, making him clueless about how to go about things.

its really unfortunate..the dog had a really nice life otherwise...the guy works construction and travels all over to do so. the dog spent 24 hours a day with him, riding around in his work van and hanging out with him, getting attention at the construction sites. he was fed well and had regular basic vet care. the guy really wanted to do right by his dog..he just didnt know how. he's a single guy who works a lot. he's lonely without his dog. he wants to get another dog so im teaching him. Ive been working on translating some of Pat McConnell's books into spanish and making audio recordings that he can listen to. Ive been bringing him to watch me work with Viejo(the dog) and bringing the kid to hang out with Bolo to help him get over his nervousness about dogs(Bolo's a big mushy luvmonster..her magic is slowly having an effect). He wants another dog. Its best that Viejo goes to a new home though...one without children. im also trying to talk him into getting into a literacy program(which is difficult because he's really ashamed and embarrassed that he doesnt know how to read) 

and you might say that he shouldnt have a dog because he cant afford a trainer but i dont really agree with that. he can give a good home, can afford basic vet care and he really cares...i know that because he's trying to do the right thing

i have dealt with my fair share of viciousness and stupidity doing this but sometimes that isnt the case. this is one of them. 

i get tired of it though and its always Cesar..his name ALWAYS comes up. maybe it does bias me against him...or maybe i have a valid point when i say having TV training shows that dont really TEACH much...is dangerous.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Very sad story, Zim. What you are doing for all involved is absolutely amazing. 

I have to fault the show, too. I just feel like the disclaimer is for legal purposes only and really means nothing otherwise. Cesar is not a stupid man (as much as I'd like to say that he is). He knows that doing the things he does are going to catch on with people who are having issues with their dog and want a quick fix.

There are elements of the show that he does talk more directly to the viewer IMO.. the whole exercise/discipline/affection bit, for example.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> No offense chief, but Canada really doesn't have much going for it anyways. I'd be embarrassed regardless of what dog stuff is going on there.


Seriously? What an incredibly offensive and rude thing to say.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> He knows that doing the things he does are going to catch on with *people who are having issues with their dog and want a quick fix.*


This is what I fault more than CM or any training method.

If people just want a quick fix, no method is going to work because there's rarely a such thing as a quick answer to a problem. If nothing else, it will take time to consistently practice/manage until the point is learned in the dog and then generalized to all situations the dog will encounter.

If people think a TV show can tell them all they need to know about training a dog - well, I would fault that more than the show. People should think and understand WHY and HOW something is being done, not just mimic because XYZ on TV did it.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Seriously? What an incredibly offensive and rude thing to say.


It was a friendly joke, note the winky face.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> It was a friendly joke, note the winky face.


Was neither funny nor friendly, regardless of what emoticon you tacked onto it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> This is what I fault more than CM or any training method.
> 
> If people just want a quick fix, no method is going to work because there's rarely a such thing as a quick answer to a problem. If nothing else, it will take time to consistently practice/manage until the point is learned in the dog and then generalized to all situations the dog will encounter.
> 
> If people think a TV show can tell them all they need to know about training a dog - well, I would fault that more than the show. People should think and understand WHY and HOW something is being done, not just mimic because XYZ on TV did it.


Think about the psychology behind it though. Anxiety is a HUGE part of advertising and a huge part of this. The Dog Whisperer people are using the anxiety of a frustrated owner to capitalize and put their name out there. People don't know that there's no such thing as a quick fix; they see this and they're suddenly full of hope that their dog's behavior issues can be cured instantaneously. 

When I first got Marge, I was a CM fan. I didn't use his physical methods (rolling over, those stupid claws on the neck, etc), but was sort of in to his pack leader/flooding BS. I didn't know any better. I used to walk Marge in places that I should have never walked her, likely put her in situations that were bad for her (or at least dreamed of doing so before one of my first WONDERFUL +R trainer came in to the picture). She behaved because she was being flooded by her environment. I had seen him "treat" fear cases in this way, so I thought hey, look at this guy, he's hot stuff so I guess I could do it, too. I needed the help. He was there with all his charisma and supposed results, and I, being stressed out, worried about my dog, and anxious for a solution, followed along with him.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Think about the psychology behind it though. Anxiety is a HUGE part of advertising and a huge part of this. The Dog Whisperer people are using the anxiety of a frustrated owner to capitalize and put their name out there. People don't know that there's no such thing as a quick fix; they see this and they're suddenly full of hope that their dog's behavior issues can be cured instantaneously.
> 
> When I first got Marge, I was a CM fan. I didn't use his physical methods (rolling over, those stupid claws on the neck, etc), but was sort of in to his pack leader/flooding BS. I didn't know any better. I used to walk Marge in places that I should have never walked her, likely put her in situations that were bad for her (or at least dreamed of doing so before one of my first WONDERFUL +R trainer came in to the picture). She behaved because she was being flooded by her environment. I had seen him "treat" fear cases in this way, so I thought hey, look at this guy, he's hot stuff so I guess I could do it, too. I needed the help. He was there with all his charisma and supposed results, and I, being stressed out, worried about my dog, and anxious for a solution, followed along with him.


I can honestly feel for the quick fix public. Most people who watch the show don't even know what a behaviorist IS. You're lucky with Marge; as I'm lucky with Dude. Dudes first trainer made Pittison look like Shirley Temple, and someone please ask me once again WHY I listened that my 5 month old toy breed puppy (who was "naturally" well behaved) needed a choke chain collar? And why it was OK with me when the trainer took my dog, walked in a circle, and then popped him hard enough to make him cry when my puppy veered off path to come to me, his owner? I have no idea why I thought that was OK, but I think it was the credentials and big fancy titles and "he must know what he's doing" mentality. 
Funny thing is, the trainer I worked Auz with actually kept one of this guys dogs for 6 weeks boarding AND TRAINING, lololol!!! And the trainer I'm working Tag with for rally and agility he spoke of with extreme contempt, saying she used force and dragged dogs who wouldn't walk, etc. She had me walk Tag up the teeter 2 or 3 steps and turn around and do his contact (a variation of the premack) so many times I thought I would scream  I think if I would have dragged Tag up the teeter (like this trainer guy said she would have), she would have beaten me black and blue.


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Was neither funny nor friendly, regardless of what emoticon you tacked onto it.


??? It was a joke, just stupid US vs. Canada humor - nothing personal.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

qingcong said:


> No offense chief, but Canada really doesn't have much going for it anyways. I'd be embarrassed regardless of what dog stuff is going on there.


I'm afraid qingcong, that this "joke" fell a bit flat. Maybe you need to come up here and study with our very talented comedians to learn a better delivery? A wink can mean many things.....I prefer this emotion 

I'm not easily offended, so this one gets a pass..but you DO need to be aware that things come off much differently online than they do in person..as you can see by the other posts by my fellow Canajuns. 

Just sayin.


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## ssg (Jan 1, 2010)

Interesting discussion. I tried to see the pov of most posters but can only conclude that most really don't know what they are talking about, sorry. It is so much easy to blame others.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

ssg said:


> Interesting discussion. I tried to see the pov of most posters but can only conclude that most really don't know what they are talking about, sorry. It is so much easy to blame others.


Who's blaming whom? Who doesn't know what they're talking about?


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

ssg said:


> Interesting discussion. I tried to see the pov of most posters but can only conclude that most really don't know what they are talking about, sorry. It is so much easy to blame others.


Um..what??

Most of the posters have been anti CM (or somewhat Anti) and most of them have extensive dog experience so this statement makes little sense.
Would you like to clarify?


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I'm afraid qingcong, that this "joke" fell a bit flat. Maybe you need to come up here and study with our very talented comedians to learn a better delivery? A wink can mean many things.....I prefer this emotion
> 
> I'm not easily offended, so this one gets a pass..but you DO need to be aware that things come off much differently online than they do in person..as you can see by the other posts by my fellow Canajuns.
> 
> Just sayin.


Ain't nothin'. If you Canuck's think this was bad, don't get me started on New Jersey or Delaware.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

qingcong said:


> Ain't nothin'. If you Canuck's think this was bad, don't get me started on New Jersey or Delaware.


And that's a whole 'nother thread...lol.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the kid was a bystander. the owner tried to pick up the dog's bone to move it off the carpet. the dog growled at him..so he alpha rolled it. He said that the dog started thrashing around and bit his hand, causing him to yank his hand back and the dog got free....still in freak out mode and snapped at the kid's face.
> 
> when i say that the guarding WAS a non issue..from what i can determine, he would just growl a little when you took his bone. easily fixable with a little trading game type training.
> 
> ...


There was a dog on another forum of mine that was resource guarding. The mom decided to alpha roll him and he ended up sending her to the hospital. The dog was put down. 

I have not watched but a handful of Cesar episodes. They left me less than impressed to say the least.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> There was a dog on another forum of mine that was resource guarding. The mom decided to alpha roll him and he ended up sending her to the hospital. The dog was put down.


i like to give them at least a little chance before it comes to that. when i do this i have a "grace period". its where i work with the dog and dont even consider PTS as an option. if by the end of the grace period, the dog show NO improvement. PTS becomes an option. if the dog does show improvement..the grace period is extended. its always discussed with the owners on those terms so they know i mean business. this is a free service i provide to select cases. there are ACO in a few counties with my phone number. when they come across cases they feel like there could be hope for if someone could step but the family cant afford it..they give them my number.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

ssg said:


> Interesting discussion. I tried to see the pov of most posters but can only conclude that most really don't know what they are talking about, sorry. It is so much easy to blame others.


And most of us are jealous and racist, too.

It's interesting to me that Cesar detractors generally give specific examples of their objections to his methods, while supporters generally attack the detractors instead of explaining why Cesar makes sense.

There are exceptions, certainly, but as someone who has followed these threads (whether I really want to or not) I see a strong trend.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> There was a dog on another forum of mine that was resource guarding. The mom decided to alpha roll him and he ended up sending her to the hospital. The dog was put down.
> 
> I have not watched but a handful of Cesar episodes. They left me less than impressed to say the least.


I will admit one thing. I would be hard pressed for answers if I decided to "alpha roll" one of my dogs and they reacted so badly that I needed a trip to the ER to have my face stitched up. It is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would question my dogs' stability/temperament AND (most importantly) our relationship, rather; what's lacking in that relationship. 
Don't flame me please 
ETA: I can see being hurt badly if you decided to alpha roll a strange dog. But my own?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I will admit one thing. I would be hard pressed for answers if I decided to "alpha roll" one of my dogs and they reacted so badly that I needed a trip to the ER to have my face stitched up. It is probably an unpopular opinion, but I would question my dogs' stability/temperament AND (most importantly) our relationship, rather; what's lacking in that relationship.
> Don't flame me please
> ETA: I can see being hurt badly if you decided to alpha roll a strange dog. But my own?


if your own dog was panicked enough...they'd bite you.

Viejo...is a SENSITIVE boy. he was treated with such care and never ever left his owner's side. when he's calm he is absolutely one of the most affectionate and attention seeking dogs ive met.

getting rolled was a MAJOR shock to his system.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> if your own dog was panicked enough...they'd bite you.
> 
> Viejo...is a SENSITIVE boy. he was treated with such care and never ever left his owner's side. when he's calm he is absolutely one of the most affectionate and attention seeking dogs ive met.
> 
> getting rolled was a MAJOR shock to his system.


Yes, if they were panicked. I guess I should have clarified more. My dogs don't panic if I put them on their backs, sides, etc. I trained them from day one to accept all kinds of handling, and I also work on bite inhibition. Dude panicked one night when he got his tail caught in the recliner. He flung, screamed, and he was (in a blind panic) biting anywhere, every where. I got him out, and amazingly didn't get punctured (I did get "bit", though). If I had a dog who had an unknown background, absolutely it would be a different story. A friend of mine had a rescue dog she had barely had a few days, and he got his foot caught in the crate as he was going in. He panicked, she reached in to grab him and he bit her, and again didn't leave a bite mark. Pretty impressive dog, and not "the norm". (The same thing happened to a dog in our grooming shop, went to go in the pen and got her foot caught in the bar as she was stepping over. She panicked, BIG time, and bit every single one of us. Not a vicious dog at all.) 
Sorry for the confusion.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I would rather be bit by a courageous dog than a panicked dog. Of course it's hard to get a dog with courage to bite. They are much more discreet with their bites.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Yes, if they were panicked. I guess I should have clarified more. My dogs don't panic if I put them on their backs, sides, etc. I trained them from day one to accept all kinds of handling, and I also work on bite inhibition.



I would imagine that the dog could still read the difference in energy/context/you between being trained to accept being touched all over in all positions and being flipped over as a correction or when you're in a different frame of mind (I'd imagine you would be as happy-go-lucky/calming if you were to alpha roll over gently putting him on his back so you can rub his belly or chest, etc)

If a dog I could do that to bit me hard if I alpha rolled, I wouldn't question temperament (if he wasn't stable, he probably wouldn't accept touching all over him and in the same vulnerable on-your-back position), I'd just question (and have gotten my answer) as to if alpha rolling would be a correction I need to be employing.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Yes, if they were panicked. I guess I should have clarified more. My dogs don't panic if I put them on their backs, sides, etc. I trained them from day one to accept all kinds of handling, and I also work on bite inhibition. Dude panicked one night when he got his tail caught in the recliner. He flung, screamed, and he was (in a blind panic) biting anywhere, every where. I got him out, and amazingly didn't get punctured (I did get "bit", though). If I had a dog who had an unknown background, absolutely it would be a different story. A friend of mine had a rescue dog she had barely had a few days, and he got his foot caught in the crate as he was going in. He panicked, she reached in to grab him and he bit her, and again didn't leave a bite mark. Pretty impressive dog, and not "the norm". (The same thing happened to a dog in our grooming shop, went to go in the pen and got her foot caught in the bar as she was stepping over. She panicked, BIG time, and bit every single one of us. Not a vicious dog at all.)
> Sorry for the confusion.


Viejo isnt vicious and he accepts GENTLE handling very easily...unless he has a bone or toy...which i think was the problem..he had started doing a low warning growl when he had something..the owner panicked when this started happening and was afraid for his kid. he didnt know what a behaviorist was..and picking up a book...eh..i mentioned that already...anyways

we have a dog unused to ROUGH handling...already on edge because of the guarding issue...and he get rolled..of course he's going to freak.

He's not vicious and Im optimistic about his guarding. we're working on trading and its going pretty well..he's kind of reluctant to give it up right now but the point is is that he IS willing to give up the coveted item now. another month of steady, easy work and i think he'll be ready for his new home(which im happy to say as of today i have an EXCELLENT prospect for...she's an HIV patient, lives alone and wants some company that wont tiptoe around her because of her condition and in the event of her passing, her brother is already lined up to take whatever dog she gets..and he's STELLAR with animals and the previous owner would be allowed to visit) 

im keeping my fingers crossed.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Yes, if they were panicked. I guess I should have clarified more. *My dogs don't panic if I put them on their backs, sides, etc. I trained them from day one to accept all kinds of handling, and I also work on bite inhibition. * Dude panicked one night when he got his tail caught in the recliner. He flung, screamed, and he was (in a blind panic) biting anywhere, every where. I got him out, and amazingly didn't get punctured (I did get "bit", though). If I had a dog who had an unknown background, absolutely it would be a different story. A friend of mine had a rescue dog she had barely had a few days, and he got his foot caught in the crate as he was going in. He panicked, she reached in to grab him and he bit her, and again didn't leave a bite mark. Pretty impressive dog, and not "the norm". (The same thing happened to a dog in our grooming shop, went to go in the pen and got her foot caught in the bar as she was stepping over. She panicked, BIG time, and bit every single one of us. Not a vicious dog at all.)
> Sorry for the confusion.


And there is the difference. You worked on handling and bite inhibition. CM gets bitten a LOT, I'm sure they only show the occasional ones on the show.
This is part of the reason we work on collar grabs etc in puppy classes. A dog in a panic or who is injured or really stressed WILL bite and it is common for redirected bites to happen if the dog is freaking out about something ELSE. Bite inhibition training is what puts the safety on the gun.

I am pretty confident Cracker would not bite if I 'had' to pin her for some emergency reason, but she sure as hell would freak out and be messed up. That's enough reason for me to not do it.
I carry extra leashes for emergency muzzling if a dog is injured on my watch, I will not push the envelope on the "but he'll never bite me, he loves me" theory.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

RonE said:


> And most of us are jealous and racist, too.
> 
> It's interesting to me that Cesar detractors generally give specific examples of their objections to his methods, while supporters generally attack the detractors instead of explaining why Cesar makes sense.
> 
> There are exceptions, certainly, but as someone who has followed these threads (whether I really want to or not) I see a strong trend.



I had to quick re-read my posts to see if I had inadvertently attacked anyone. Whew! It wasn't me. 
Then again, I am more of an "on the fence" sort when it comes to Cesar. I understand not liking his methods and not using them but hating him? Nah, I think he seems like kind of a nice guy and I would have no issue with him playing with my dogs. He wouldn't need to do any training but unlike that Brad Pattison that the other thread is about, I think Cesar is a decent fella.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Zim, unfortunately I think the owner didn't have much say in what happened to this dog. Sad situation for sure.



KBLover said:


> I would imagine that the dog could still read the difference in energy/context/you between being trained to accept being touched all over in all positions and being flipped over as a correction or when you're in a different frame of mind (I'd imagine you would be as happy-go-lucky/calming if you were to alpha roll over gently putting him on his back so you can rub his belly or chest, etc)
> 
> If a dog I could do that to bit me hard if I alpha rolled, I wouldn't question temperament (if he wasn't stable, he probably wouldn't accept touching all over him and in the same vulnerable on-your-back position), I'd just question (and have gotten my answer) as to if alpha rolling would be a correction I need to be employing.


I have conditioned my dos for them to let me roll them over. I hold them in my arms like a baby sometimes and they all like it because it was introduced positively and slowly. I see it as a different scenario than alpha rolling.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I have conditioned my dos for them to let me roll them over. I hold them in my arms like a baby sometimes and they all like it because it was introduced positively and slowly. I see it as a different scenario than alpha rolling.


Yep.

Very much so. Totally different energy, totally different context, you're in a peaceful frame of mind and probably have a very soft expression on your face.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Inga said:


> I understand not liking his methods and not using them but hating him? .


he's on TV. his methods are all i know for sure of him. they are the only concrete criteria i have to judge him by.

the way he acts on Tv...even the puppy mill epi...i have no way of knowing if that is in fact the true Cesar. I just dont trust TV that way.

so to me..ALL he is is his methods and his philosophy. and that...i do not like.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Viejo isnt vicious and he accepts GENTLE handling very easily...unless he has a bone or toy...which i think was the problem..he had started doing a low warning growl when he had something..the owner panicked when this started happening and was afraid for his kid. he didnt know what a behaviorist was..and picking up a book...eh..i mentioned that already...anyways
> 
> we have a dog unused to ROUGH handling...already on edge because of the guarding issue...and he get rolled..of course he's going to freak.
> 
> ...


Very hopeful that Veijo's new home works out well, it sounds ideal  He sounds like a workable case, and I'm glad you were there to help them out.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I'm sorry to be briefly off-topic, but Laurelin's siggie just cracked me up:









Too Many Papillons​
I've never seen anyone actually exceed the bandwidth of the basic Photobucket account before. I guess there really ARE too many Papillons.


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## 2happytails (May 8, 2010)

Well as with most things in life, it's up to the people who "blindly follow" or think things out for themsleves. I have been around many dogs and horses and training issues yet I wouldn't automatically think I have the experience to train any issue. It states on the show do not attempt these procedures yourself...for those who think they can so easily "copy" what is done on the show then they are just asking for their own trouble. I personally have no qualms with Millan's training techniques and I believe his theory of dominance in the dog "pack" is credible. Many of these people on the show treat their dog like a child, and so many issues stem from this, the dog is confused about its place and reacts the only way it knows. 

As far as the example of the dog crossing the hardwood, I would assume this was a situation causing the family problems or they wouldn't even contact the show nor would the show air something that it didn't feel was of broad interest. Some of these simple "issues" can also lead to more complex ones if the dog has a fearful nature, I think that is the underlying concept Millan is trying to get across, not simply that the dog "doesn't walk on hardwood floor."

Well, there is my 2 cents, probably all it's worth too.


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