# Need to socialize pup, but worried about parvo. Have some questions...



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

My new puppy, Casper, will be coming to live with me in two to three weeks (he's seven weeks old right now). I need to know what I can do to socialize him while he's little while best protecting him from disease, especially parvo.

I know this has been talked about in many threads here -- I've read a bunch of them. I know both sides of the issue, and I don't want this thread to turn into another argument about whether or not it's worth the risk to socialize during that important pre-16-weeks window. I believe that early socialization is important. However, *parvo is a problem in my area*, especially recently -- we're in the middle of an outbreak and there have been stories about parvo in the local papers and on the nightly TV news here in the past few days. 

Therefore, I will not be letting Casper walk outside anywhere but in my own yard. I will not be introducing him to strange dogs. I do, however, need to socialize him as much as I can, because he's an Alaskan klee kai and they tend towards shyness, sometimes extreme shyness. All of the breeders I've talked to have stressed the importance of lots of socialization. So my question is, what CAN I do to socialize him?

Casper will be attending puppy socialization classes, but not until at least 14 weeks of age, maybe 16. I believe they need to have two of their three sets of shots to be accepted into the class, and then after that you just need to wait until a new session starts. I think one is starting up when he'll be about 15 weeks old.

Before that, can I take him on walks with my three-year-old papillon, as long as I carry him the whole time? Can I take him into stores, or to houses where the people don't have dogs? What about if they do have dogs, but the dogs are up-to-date on their vaccinations? Is it safer to invite those dogs to my house instead of going to theirs? Is socialization with my papillon and my brother's pit bull (who we dogsit a couple days a week) enough until Casper's old enough to get out and meet other dogs? Does anyone have ideas for other things I can do? And are there any places I should definitely avoid, even if I'm carrying him?

Sorry for the length and all of the questions! I haven't had a puppy in ten years (got Crystal the papillon when she was one and a half years old), and there wasn't a parvo outbreak going on last time, so I'm just concerned.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Dunbar says the puppy should be socialized with 100 people and 100 dogs by 8 weeks old.

But Dunbar's a looney.

I kid. But it makes the point: you can't possibly socialize your dog with too many dogs. Just one or two dogs is not nearly enough.

It is safer to invite other people's dogs to your house. Socializing with your brother's pit will be fine, but not as a sole source.

Go to your local obedience clubs. Try to find out about puppy playdates. There's often a lot of them, and Obedience clubs are one of the safest avenues for socialization.

Socialization with dogs and people is not hte only thing you should be doing. Habituating is necessary too. Just taking her to new places all the time, elevators, stairs, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, skateboard parks, baseball games, basketball games, football games.... the list is endless. That's important too.

Talk to your puppy socialization class, ask if you can get in with one shot. Try to figure out a way to get in earlier, look for other classes in the area if you have to.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks, RBark. 

I definitely plan to take the pup everywhere I can so he gets used to all kinds of different people, places and situations. Is it safe to do this before he's finished his series of puppy shots as long as I carry him? If I could carry him on walks with my papillon or into dog-friendly stores, that would help a lot. (I assume I'd avoid entering pet shops with him, though, even if he didn't touch the ground; is this correct?)

I live in a small city (about 16,000 people), and we only have the one place that offers socialization and obedience classes. It's a large room off the back of the local pet supply store; the class instructors just "rent" it for their class times. I know that the shop owners' dogs run and play in there, and customers will often let their dogs romp around back there as well (Crystal has played with the owner's lhasa mix a few times). I'm not sure how safe of a place that really is for a pup who hasn't completed the puppy series, although I am willing to chance that because I do think the classes are important.

There haven't been any reported cases of parvo at my vet, which is a good thing, but the island is pretty small, and the majority of recent cases happened less than 45 minutes away by car. I just like to be careful.


----------



## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Good question. Could parvo be transimitted to pups by people who come in contact with other parvo invested dogs?


----------



## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

It's transmitted through the feces and yes, if people don't wash their hands. It can also come through bird droppings, other animals and brought into the house with shoes.


----------



## Crusher (Mar 26, 2010)

Parvo isnt transmitted through the air. In fact, most dogs have it- like herpes- but it doesnt flare up unless the dog is really really stressed or it comes in direct contact with the fluid of another dog. (I use "fluid" loosely, and I mean whatever comes from either end) But really parvo is on every surface you touch. So most dogs have some immunity to it- some antibodies. 
But puppies havent been in contact with a lot of other animals. 
Dont let any dogs you dont know near your unvaccinated puppy. 
The ones you do know should be fine since you know theyre not sick... and they can transfer antibodies.
I wouldnt bring your dog to a dog park until its had its shots. Id say let it relieve itself in your yard and when you walk it dont carry it- just dont let it walk on the grass. 
I also know that a good daycare or playgroup wont let any dogs without their distemper/parvo, bordatella and rabies shots- so you shouldnt be able to do that. Check out the place your taking the dog. Ask about any outbreaks- kennel cough, parvo, worms... take good notice. Ask about the facilities cleaning processes- what chemicals they use, how they let the dogs relieve themselves and where, how they clean up. And ask about the training the employees have. 
I think socialization is incredibly important and the earlier the better. Just do your homework on where you want to take the dog. I dont want to sound rude, but you cant find all the answers on the internet. And not all dog friendly places do what they advertise- talk to management and employees. Look for certifications and liceneses. 
People think that because the dogs cant tattle the workers can be lazy- not clean how theyre supposed to, cut corners... and that can lead to outbreaks.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Crusher said:


> Just do your homework on where you want to take the dog. I dont want to sound rude, but you cant find all the answers on the internet.


You don't sound rude. I know that, though. I plan to talk to my vet about parvo in our area (I have to take the pup in for a checkup within three days of getting him, just to make sure all is well), and I will definitely find out more about the socialization classes (and the space they're held in) when I go in to sign him up for those. I do think the Internet is an excellent source of information, though, and I mostly posted here to find out if anyone had suggestions for things I could do with him that I may not have thought of.


----------



## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

My puppy is now 5 months old and we have had her for two months, we have just now started letting her out for walks (off our property) because she didnt have any shots when we got her. She is doing great with socialization, she plays with other dogs at the park and loves people, she is a little afraid but always has her tail wagging and is just cautious.

Our vet told us to also keep our other fully vaccinated dog home so she didnt bring anything home from the park and make the puppy sick. If parvo is happening in your area I wouldnt let your puppy socialize with any dogs whether they have their shots or not. You can still invite people over to your house for the puppy to meet. Is the breeder giving the first shot? because if this is done now, then the next one can be done shortly after you get the puppy then wait 1-2 weeks and you can take it out to socialize.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, he's eight weeks old on Wednesday, and the breeder is taking him for his first set of shots this week. I should get him just after he turns nine weeks old. 

Are they generally considered fairly safe after the second set of shots, and the third is just an extra precaution? I noted that the socialization classes only require two sets as well. The whole antibodies thing is a little confusing.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Yes the antibody thing is confusing. LOL...it's a catch 22 in many ways...exposure to germs builds the immune system but an immature immune system can still be exposed to illness...

PEI is very small island so an outbreak of parvo is certainly something to be concerned about as there aren't a lot of areas you can go to that may not be infected. That being said, being careful and being paranoid are two very different things. 

If your breeder's bitches are fully vaccinated and healthy, the pups should have had a good start from the maternal antibodies in their milk/colostrum, the two to three puppy "boosters" are simply to keep the antibodies up as the puppies are being weaned and developing their OWN immunity.

As for socialization. If the breeder is keeping the pups to about nine weeks and has the pups in the house with her/him you are ahead of the game in many ways. He will have been exposed to his littermates for a good length of time to help learn bite inhibition and puppy signals, he will have been exposed to household noises and hustle bustle. Your current dog and the dogsitting dog are also going to be good but be very sure to be actively supervising ALL interactions..puppies are irritating and stressful for adult dogs of all types so lots of breaks, keeping an eye out for stress in the older dogs and giving them and puppy lots of time SEPARATED is key.

For out and about, I would carry the puppy most of the time but occasionally put him down in areas you think are not super frequented by dogs. (like grassy areas or pet stores) and hit the local Crappy Tire, Home Depot and small local shops that okay dogs. Meet as many people as possible, including different ethnicities, sizes shapes ages and descriptions. Crutches, canes, wheelchairs, skateboards, rollerblades, bearded people, umbrellas etc etc (I think you get the picture...lol).


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks, Cracker! Yeah, the breeder is keeping the four pups together until they're nine and a half weeks old, maybe a bit longer depending on when she can get flights for them (they're in Pancake Bay, Ontario right now, and one is going to Ft. McMurray, one here to PEI, one staying close by in Sault Ste. Marie, and I think she may be keeping the last). They're being kept in her house with some trips outside to play. She breeds Schipperke as well and has a large property with lots of dog runs for older pups/dogs to play in. The AKK pups will have been exposed to her Schipperke, so they'll have grown up with quite a few dogs around already, which is nice. The breeder is good; she has a good reputation among AKK breeders and she's concerned with health and temperament. It seems like the pups have had a great start in life.

I'll definitely watch the pup around the papillon and pit bull! Both have been good with puppies/small dogs in the past, although the pit can get too hyper and try to play rough, so the pup won't be able to run around with her at all. They won't be left alone unsupervised. 

Good to know I can take him everywhere as long as I carry him! I definitely plan to hit up as many pet-friendly stores as possible, and to take him along when I walk Crystal the papillon. We see a lot of dogs while out walking, so even if he can't _meet_ them, he'll be able to see them and get used to them being around.


----------



## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

My vet told me Bella was good to go a week after her 2nd shot. She said they need to get out and build up their imunities. I would just be careful with your puppy as you said parvo is around your area. Even if your puppy gets its 2nd shot at 12 and you wait untill 13 or 14 weeks it can still be socialized. Its just like everything else...a dog not potty trained by 14 weeks isnt going to always pee in the house, it just might take more work. Puppies are always learning, and checking out new things I think as long as the puppy doesnt spend its whole puppy life quarantined it will be fine.

I know everyone on this forum has a different opinion when it comes to parvo/disease and socialization but for us personally this wasnt a risk we were willing to take and kept BOTH dogs home, just walking on our property and up to the mailbox at the end of the road. Bella is now out and about and is doing great, she loves all people, she is a bit weary of other dogs but she always goes to greet them with tail wagging and then when they try to sniff her butt she runs back between my feet LOL. Maggie is a big help with this because Bella sees that Maggie is ok with the other dogs and comes out. Soon I will be doing alot of park walks with out Maggie so Bella doesnt become dependent on her all the time.


----------



## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

Take him to people(non-dog) places. *Most* stores/malls I know let small dogs(or Gigi) if they are carried or in a carrier, you can even ask them. The only places that are against the law to bring a dog in is places that carry food products here. He can socialize at dog parks after he's fully vaccinated. 
Since you have to carry him, maybe you could get a cheap carrier bag while he's still small and carry him in their. Trust me, carrying a dog all the time get's tiring no matter how big they are, its worth it. LOL


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a Sherpa bag I bought for flying with Crystal, but it's a bit big for carrying around town. I may look into a smaller bag, but I should be all right just carrying him. I carry Crystal around a lot of stores, and she's 10 pounds -- Casper will be lighter than that. It does get tiring sometimes, but we can always stop and sit on a park bench and just watch people.  My city is pretty dog-friendly -- the only place I haven't been able to take Crystal (besides food places) is the library -- so I should get lots of opportunities to socialize Casper with people.

Misty, a couple weeks after his second set of shots sounds good to me; that's about when the puppy socialization class will be starting up, so it's good timing. I'll talk to my vet about all of this, too, of course. She'll know more about parvo in the area than I do.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm picking the little guy up at the airport today! He's on his first flight right now. I'm excited. He's arriving in another city that's about four hours away by car, and we're staying there tonight (along with my papillon), so I guess we'll get an early start on socialization! That city's not in the midst of a parvo outbreak, but I will be very careful anyway. I will post a thread in the pictures forum when we get home. 

Thanks for the tips, everyone.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

An update: Yesterday my vet diagnosed Casper with "walking dandruff," a kind of mite. I can't take him anywhere or let people cuddle him, and I can't even let him play with my own pets or lay on any of their beds (I have washed everything he's touched and treated everyone with Revolution just in case). This is incredibly frustrating and really puts a damper on socialization.

I am happy to say that he's not the least bit afraid of my cats or dog or the people he met before I got him in for his vet checkup, though... he is a playful, outgoing little pup. He should be cleared of mites in three weeks (if all goes well), and then I can have people over to see him, but I think we might miss the deadline for getting into puppy class. He will be 13 weeks old at that point.

Edit: My vet also told me that there have been two parvo cases in my city over the past couple of weeks. One pup had only been vaccinated at six weeks and the other not at all. She said I should be cautious.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Here are my protocols, which worked well with the last litter:

1) no un cleaned shoes inside the house. Either leave shoes outdoors, or keep a 1:30 bleach spray at your entry ways, and spray down shoes before entering. Hand washing required on entry of all persons.

2) I keep my puppies on solid surfaces only until 2 weeks past the 3rd vaccine. No grassy areas, no dirt areas. 

3) CARRY the pup to your vehicle when you are going out. Choose places to go that are comparably safe:

Homes of friends who do not have dogs

Places of business that are not dog related

Also, invite people to your home to socialize with the pup, following the sanitation rules above.

I avoid places that have high dog traffic until 2 weeks after the 3rd vaccine. So, no puppy class, no vet trips unless the pup is carried in and out, and only into a cleaned room, never the waiting area, no dog parks, no pet supply stores, etc.

If I visit a place such as this, I take great care when I return home, removing clothing and shoes, showering, and making sure that clothing and shoes are properly washed and cleaned before wearing them again.

Note: I vaccinate at 7, 10, 13, and 16 weeks of age, Parvo and Distemper only.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, you're very careful! Thanks for the tips. I took him in to the vet yesterday, but he didn't touch anything but the scale (which I asked the tech to wipe down) and the table. I had been taking him out on my lawn, but not anywhere else unless I was carrying him. Now it's just the lawn (I don't like to touch him much now that he's been diagnosed with mites... I feel bad, but they _can_ be transmitted to humans and I would rather not get them). The mites make it impossible to have anyone over to meet him or to take him anywhere, so I don't think I need to worry about parvo much now. He has a great attitude so far, so hopefully it won't hurt him to be heavily socialized after he's 13 weeks old instead of right now.

And he was vaccinated at 6 and 8.5 weeks, and will be done again at 13 and 16ish.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Dang mites.
Did you let the breeder know? All of her dogs and the kennel will have to be treated, including the pups she rehomed/sold from the litter.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/72005.htm


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yep, I called her as soon as I got home from the vet. She was not pleased, as she had taken the pups to the vet twice (at 6 and 8.5 weeks) and the vet had missed the mites -- it just says on my pup's record that he has "dry skin," and apparently the other three pups did as well. This is apparently an under-diagnosed mite, as it's easy to miss. I'm just glad my vet realized Casper's skin was flakier than it should have been. The breeder has only sent one other pup off so far, so she contacted his owners, and she's going to take the others in to the vet. Luckily, these four pups and their mom were living with her friend (who owns the mom), so the breeder's Schipperke and other AKK may be fine. I'll have to write and ask for an update.


----------

