# Very aggressive 5 month old dog



## cheetohunter (Sep 28, 2015)

Hi, I'm completely new to this forum so if I'm posting something that's already been talked about I'm sorry (I truly tried to search everything first). 

Anyway, I have a 5 month old male Pembroke Corgi. He's been an excellent dog since we got him at 2 months. However, about a month ago he started becoming aggressive towards anyone who would come near him while he eats or while he enjoys a larger than normal treat. We figured it was just part of being a puppy and started working with him, trading up whatever he was protective over for a better treat. He was doing okay (not great), but we were seeing some progress. 

Then a few weeks later he escalated it when my husband (unknowingly) tried to adjust his bed. He bit incredibly hard and tried to shake when he did it. Things have kind of escalated since then. 

He has always been better behaved with me (the wife), but has bitten me seriously three times this last week alone. 

He's getting more and more protective of stuff. He currently won't let me take off or put on his leash (he bites when you try and approach him). He's really hesitant to let me touch him (and won't even allow my husband near him). 

I've researched this topic to death and think he's mostly doing this out of fear and maybe some aggression (he's still intact--not that that probably has much to do with it). He's also getting his adult teeth, which just generally makes him crankier, but it's no excuse. 

But I'm out of ideas. Everyday is something new we're not allowed to touch or be around. He's gone from growling to immediately biting within the last 2 weeks. 

Previously, we've been able to brush him, cut his nails and give him bathswithout much fuss but lately he won't even let us approach him. 

He's not a dominant dog (despite the aggression over stupid stuff). Anytime he meets another dog or person he immediately becomes submissive and rolls onto his back (maybe that's a warning sign? I don't know). 

As soon as he's out of the situation where he feels like he has to protect his stuff he's 100% an adorable, well behaved dog (he even knows how to use a bell to ask to go to the bathroom---he's THAT easy to train). But he turns into this nightmare anytime we try to do something he doesn't like. 

Our vet is an idiot and just said it's normal for this to happen and didn't find anything medically wrong with him or offer any suggestions. We're currently looking for a new one. 

We've tried punishment (which, obviously didn't work), baby steps (where we approach him from a distance and decrease that every few days as he gets okay with it), and lots and lots of really good treats but he doesn't seem to care. 

At first when he would bite us we would yell and throw him in his cage, but that only made him meaner the next time so that didn't last long. Lately, we don't react or pull away when he bites us (which I read was what you were supposed to do?) and it seemed to work for a few times but now he's just getting more aggressive because clearly that didn't work for him. We currently can only handle him if we are wearing my husband's hockey gloves because that is the only thing he can't bite or rip through. 

I've tried contacting the breeder we got him from to see if there were previous issues with this (she assured us when we picked him up that there wasn't, but who knows) and I have yet to hear back from her. She is a certified breeder btw (we didn't get him from a puppy mill or anything).

I don't expect immediate changes, but is seems like nothing is working. He's just getting more and more aggressive. I don't know if we're the ones who caused this behavior, we've only had good intentions, but maybe we have done something. 

I apologize for the long post (this is the condensed version!), but I'm at my wits end. I can't imagine not having him around, but it's getting harder and harder to see this ever improving. 

Please help. 

Thank you.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'd keep going with what you're doing with the trading. Specifically, try to trade for something better, and then give -back- the thing he had.

You're right in that the punishment likely made the behaviour worse, specifically if you punished him for growling that could be why he doesn't growl anymore and goes straight for the bite.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I could see combinations of resource guarding and fear aggression being a potential cause along with if you punished him for growling in the past, he can become more likely to go right to biting. 

Here are some reading suggestions, I am linking to Good Reads since the books would be available online at various sites and at many libraries/inter-library loan
Mine! by Jean Donaldson

Behavior Adjustment Training by Grisha Stewart

How to Behave so your Dog Behaves by Sophia Yin

I don't know what you mean by "certified breeder" so that might not actually be saying much about the personality traits of the breeding dogs etc.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I *personally* don't like the "trading up" method of dealing with resource guarding. In my opinion, when your dog growls at you and you give him a more valuable treat than what he's currently guarding, you're rewarding him for guarding in the first place. 

It's likely that your initial attempts to punish your dog for this behavior made him think that you and your husband are big, terrifying animals who take his valuable things away and toss him in a cage. How long ago did you stop the punishment routine? It sounds like your puppy is just scared of both of you. 

Instead of researching and working on resource guarding, I'd suggest doing trust-building exercises with him in order to convince him that you and your husband aren't just going to suddenly turn into yelling monsters.


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## cheetohunter (Sep 28, 2015)

It's been about 3 weeks since we ended the scary throw him in the cage thing. It probably wasn't the best thing to do, but we were already running out of options at that point. Thank you for replying, I'll do some research into trust building exercises. But after that point, do you have any suggestions as to how we fix this possessive problem? I'm a little skeptical he will just be 100% okay if he learns to trust us.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

My post went to moderation for links but I would suggest reading--

Mine by Jean Donaldson
Behavior Adjustment Therapy by Grisha Stewart 
How to Behave So Your Dog Behaves by Sophia Yin


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> I *personally* don't like the "trading up" method of dealing with resource guarding. In my opinion, when your dog growls at you and you give him a more valuable treat than what he's currently guarding, you're rewarding him for guarding in the first place.


The reason why this isn't the case is because you can't reward/punish an emotion. The dog is scared you're going to take away his item. You have to show him that there's nothing to be scared about, and instead change how he feels about you approaching him to a positive emotion. "Oh good, my person is approaching! They usually give me something yummy!" vs "Oh no! My person is coming! They're probably going to try and take this great thing I have I better get ready to protect it!"

You can suppress the behaviour, but you don't change the actual root of the problem.

For example, if I were afraid of spiders and screamed when I saw them, punishing me when I screamed wouldn't make me -not- afraid of spiders, it would just make me stop screaming. 

Instead if when I saw a spider, you gave me a $100 bill, I might start to feel okay about them.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cheetohunter said:


> It's been about 3 weeks since we ended the scary throw him in the cage thing. It probably wasn't the best thing to do, but we were already running out of options at that point. Thank you for replying, I'll do some research into trust building exercises. But after that point, do you have any suggestions as to how we fix this possessive problem? I'm a little skeptical he will just be 100% okay if he learns to trust us.


All three of my adult dogs are resource guarders and when they growl at me for coming too close to their food/toys/treats, their resources simply get taken away. No yelling needed, I just calmly reach down and remove the possession in question. For instance, if it's their dinner, I remove it and put it on the counter, then return it to them about a minute later. I then stand next to them while they finish eating, and repeat the process if they growl again. Eventually, they realize that the only way to keep their resources is to NOT make a fuss about me standing right there. 

That being said, none of my dogs have ever progressed to the point that they have bitten me, so I'm not sure if that method will work for you. A few other members of this forum may have better advice for dealing with your particular situation, as I think my methodology would currently get both you and your husband bitten.

Other forum members may have a different opinion, but I think resource guarding is something that you can't completely train out of a dog. It's a natural instinct and some dogs have it more so than others. However, making resource guarding manageable and correcting/minimizing the behavior is something you can do. I'll shoot a few messages around to see if I can get some more comments to try to help you out 



ireth0 said:


> The reason why this isn't the case is because you can't reward/punish an emotion. The dog is scared you're going to take away his item. You have to show him that there's nothing to be scared about, and instead change how he feels about you approaching him to a positive emotion. "Oh good, my person is approaching! They usually give me something yummy!" vs "Oh no! My person is coming! They're probably going to try and take this great thing I have I better get ready to protect it!"
> 
> You can suppress the behaviour, but you don't change the actual root of the problem.
> 
> ...


There are, of course, different ways to deal with resource guarding, but the thought of rewarding my 140 lb Shep/Mal mix for growling at me is... Concerning, to say the least. 

Instead of rewarding that behavior, I prefer to remove the root of the problem, the "resource", then reward my dog for NOT growling at me when it's gone, and then return the resource while staying in close proximity. In my opinion, this creates a "growling at me = the removal of your resource", then "remaining calm = the return of your resource" and then "I'm near you and you have the thing you wanted and I'm not taking it away again as long as you're not growling" type of interaction. 

With this method, two of my dogs have gone from absolutely vicious resource guarders to mostly not caring about when I'm close to them and they're eating. That being said, different methods work for different people, and like I said, I'm not sure mine would work with a dog that has already progressed to biting.


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## cheetohunter (Sep 28, 2015)

Thank you. I've read mine (where we got the baby step/trading up idea from), but I will get the other 2 books. Can't ever have enough books.


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## cheetohunter (Sep 28, 2015)

I wish I was as lucky as you to just be able to take the resource away because if I could get to that point he would be teachable and we could start correcting the behavior. He just takes it from 0 to 11 if you're anywhere near his food bowl (or whatever) and reach for it. He WILL bite and it will be bad. 
I truly do appreciate your help though. I'm at the end of my rope.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

I don't think it would be even a bad thing at this point to reward the dog _for_ growling at her. He's currently entirely skipping that step and going straight to the bite because he's realized growling is something he's gotten heck for in the past.

I think the trade up method would work here. You're not rewarding the dog for growling at you, you're rewarding the dog for allowing you to take his treat while showing him a new treat. Rewarding his ability to be positively distracted. 

Hiraeth, if you think of it like a nervous/anxious dog whom you treat repeatedly to help them become more comfortable in situations that make them uncomfortable. You might see what we're saying here. You're not rewarding a nervous/anxious dog's body language, whining, or discomfort when you treat in this situation, you're rewarding their interest in the treat despite being around what makes them nervous. You're showing them good things come even when they're uncomfortable and to look to you when they're nervous. Eventually helping them relax around the stimuli entirely.

The trade up method should work in this instance. Whether he'll be 100% bomb proof around his treats in the future or not depends on the dog.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also, trading up is a training method, not a response to a growl and IMO should be practiced completely separately as a very deliberate exercise. In the moment that the dog is growling, just manage it - it's not a teaching moment. The dog is not in an emotional state to focus or learn anything, really. Work on training later. 

Before even doing trading games, for this dog I would practice just walking by dropping very high value treats. When you can walk by and he stays relaxed, then start trading games. But set them up intentionally so you can give him something extremely low value he's unlikely to guard at first, don't respond to him growling by trying to play a trading game right then. 

Mine! Is an excellent book. The good news is that resource guarding is generally very responsive to behavior modification if you stick with it and do it thoughtfully.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Also, trading up is a training method, not a response to a growl and IMO should be practiced completely separately as a very deliberate exercise. In the moment that the dog is growling, just manage it - it's not a teaching moment. The dog is not in an emotional state to focus or learn anything, really. Work on training later.
> 
> Before even doing trading games, for this dog I would practice just walking by dropping very high value treats. When you can walk by and he stays relaxed, then start trading games. But set them up intentionally so you can give him something extremely low value he's unlikely to guard at first, don't respond to him growling by trying to play a trading game right then.
> 
> Mine! Is an excellent book. The good news is that resource guarding is generally very responsive to behavior modification if you stick with it and do it thoughtfully.


Agree with this as well. Start with the treat dropping and then graduate to trading as he becomes comfortable. In the mean time if you have to give him something high value just let him have it in peace. 

It is definitely possible to fix but it will take time and commitment from everyone in the household.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Also, trading up is a training method, not a response to a growl and IMO should be practiced completely separately as a very deliberate exercise. In the moment that the dog is growling, just manage it - it's not a teaching moment. The dog is not in an emotional state to focus or learn anything, really. Work on training later.
> 
> Before even doing trading games, for this dog I would practice just walking by dropping very high value treats. When you can walk by and he stays relaxed, then start trading games. But set them up intentionally so you can give him something extremely low value he's unlikely to guard at first, don't respond to him growling by trying to play a trading game right then.
> 
> Mine! Is an excellent book. The good news is that resource guarding is generally very responsive to behavior modification if you stick with it and do it thoughtfully.


Agree with this. Raymond would growl when on the sofa and a human rear end came at him. Scary and he was there first. Not okay of course. We didn't sit and risk a bite or pull him off the sofa by the collar and risk a bite but trained him in a very few minutes to get on and off the sofa/bed/chair. Instead of sitting near an already growling dog we told him to get off, we sat and invited him back on the sofa. If we heard him growl we backed off then evaluated why he had to growl and how to make him more comfortable about what was making him growl. Sometimes training a new cue like off works, sometimes using the basics works. This was a dog like yours with no bite inhibition. If he bit you got hurt. I was amazed at how grateful he was that we understood about the sofa too.

Same with Sassy. All the books warn about food and dogs. Sassy was a mild resource guarder, got stiff around her bowl. She was so happy we understood and dropped food into her bowl and never took food away without a trade she never growled at people as far as I can remember. Plenty of scuffles with dogs about food though!

I want dogs to growl if there is a serious problem. Much better than getting bit.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm just going to come by and tell you a story about a very nice dog and resource guarding.

Kabota, my avatar, is a super nice dog, just a sweet, mellow little guy, nicest dog you've ever met. People tell me every single day how nice he is, how sweet he is, what a good boy he is. I'm not bragging, I'm trying to tell you that a very nice dog can resource guard. It's a normal dog behavior, not a sign of poor temperament.

Anyway, I had Kabota a few months and I gave him a marrow bone. I then walked past him, about 10' away, and he snarled at me. Full on, teeth bared, snarled. I wasn't even looking at him, let alone making a move towards the bone. So I continued to the kitchen and grabbed some deli ham. I then walked back and forth, tossing ham at Kabota. I threw a whole piece of ham across the room to get the bone back.

The next day, _I gave him back the bone_. Crazy, right? No, I needed to train him. The second day, he growled, but he didn't bare his teeth. The third day, he hunched over the bone, but didn't growl. The next day, he was happily watching me, waiting for his awesome treat. Now, he won't chew on things unless he's right next to me, because how else would he get his treat? Heck, my 6 year old niece stepped over him while he was chewing a bone and he was fine. (Not that I encouraged that.)

Resource guarding is not a problem. It's an opportunity, to work on your training and to gain trust. You want your dog to growl at you. After growl is bite, you want growl. A dog growls at you, back off! You reward that growl every time.

Oh, and here's what comes before a growl. If you back off when you see this stuff, you don't have to worry about the growl.


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## Babael (Sep 19, 2009)

What I did when my dog was a pup was hand-feed him for the first three months until my hands were seen as the giver of food. I'd remove the dog bowl and hand feed him everything. You might have to start off slowly and toss the treats/food a short distance if he's distrustful.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cheetohunter said:


> I wish I was as lucky as you to just be able to take the resource away because if I could get to that point he would be teachable and we could start correcting the behavior. He just takes it from 0 to 11 if you're anywhere near his food bowl (or whatever) and reach for it. He WILL bite and it will be bad.
> I truly do appreciate your help though. I'm at the end of my rope.


Sounds like trading up would perhaps be the best way to go, with your particular situation. 

My personal training philosophy is that I don't reward unwanted behavior. I don't "punish" for it, either, except to remove the stimulus. However, because your puppy is escalating straight to biting, you need a way to train around that, so dropping tasty treats and working up to removing the resource and giving another sounds like it's the most beneficial way to approach the situation.



kdawnk said:


> I don't think it would be even a bad thing at this point to reward the dog _for_ growling at her. He's currently entirely skipping that step and going straight to the bite because he's realized growling is something he's gotten heck for in the past.
> 
> I think the trade up method would work here. You're not rewarding the dog for growling at you, you're rewarding the dog for allowing you to take his treat while showing him a new treat. Rewarding his ability to be positively distracted.
> 
> ...


Bolded - I've seen this method backfire, with my dad's Rott mix. Little Dog fear growls - especially when someone leans over him or he feels anxious or when he resource guards. My dad's response to this behavior was to feed him treats, to pet him and say "it's okay" to attempt to remove his anxiety. Instead of removing the anxiety, however, it has simply worsened the situation - I am of the opinion that Little Dog now thinks that this 'fear growl' is the way we WANT him to behave because he receives rewards when he is doing it, and he has started growling more frequently for unknown reasons as a result. He literally sits there and growls at me, then looks at me and wags the tip of his tail as if expecting attention or a reward. 

And this is why I don't reward unwanted behaviors - I work to modify the unwanted behavior and I reward when my dogs perform a behavior I do want.

It's just different training methodologies and OP, I encourage you to become as educated as possible and do what you think works the best for your situation


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Hiraeth said:


> Sounds like trading up would perhaps be the best way to go, with your particular situation.
> 
> My personal training philosophy is that I don't reward unwanted behavior. I don't "punish" for it, either, except to remove the stimulus.


I just have to point out for posterity that just because it's a -P and not a +P (although arguable too depending on what second you're talking about) doesn't make it an R instead of a P


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Rescued said:


> I just have to point out for posterity that just because it's a -P and not a +P (although arguable too depending on what second you're talking about) doesn't make it an R instead of a P


I was never arguing that it was an R. In the statement you quoted, I put "punish" in quotes to emphasize that while removing a resource is technically a "punishment", there is no yelling or striking of the dogs, just a calm removal and reintroduction. I feel like this emphasis needs to be made because while we can throw around Ps and Rs and +'s and -'s all day, that kind of language won't make sense to many dog forum readers who are here for help. Also, the word "punishment" tends to have a very negative connotation, and is generally used to mean either yelling or physically striking dogs when used by non-trainers. 

Therefore, like I said, I don't "punish" for guarding behaviors in the sense that the word implies to most people (yelling, smacking), the only "punishment" I use is to remove the stimulus.

In my personal experience, treating resource guarding or anxiety behaviors with a P+ can easily turn into an unintended R+, which would increase the likelihood of the guarding behavior versus increasing the likelihood of the dog giving up the resource. I'd much rather treat resource guarding *in dogs that have not bitten their owners* with a soft P- (calm removal of the resource) followed up by a strong R+ (excited and positive giving back of the resource to reward non-guarding).

I seem to be in the minority here, however, I just know what works and hasn't worked for me personally and for my particular dogs. On top of that, treating with P- isn't even an option for OP, so she is left with R+, which I am very hopeful works for her


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Also, trading up is a training method, not a response to a growl and IMO should be practiced completely separately as a very deliberate exercise. In the moment that the dog is growling, just manage it - it's not a teaching moment. The dog is not in an emotional state to focus or learn anything, really. Work on training later.
> 
> Before even doing trading games, for this dog I would practice just walking by dropping very high value treats. When you can walk by and he stays relaxed, then start trading games. But set them up intentionally so you can give him something extremely low value he's unlikely to guard at first, don't respond to him growling by trying to play a trading game right then.
> 
> Mine! Is an excellent book. The good news is that resource guarding is generally very responsive to behavior modification if you stick with it and do it thoughtfully.


100% agree with this.

The step being missed in some other posts here is that you need to work under threshold. Start dropping treats at a distance that doesn't trigger a response from your dog and then slowly work your way closer. Use the same steps for trading. Start with lower value items and work your way up to high value items. There shouldn't be any growling during these trading sessions. 

If you moved too fast and your dog begins growling or snapping, you just need to manage the situation, like Sass said. It's not a trainable moment. Calmly take a step back and try again later with lower criteria. In the meantime, until the situation is under control, access to high value items should be very limited.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

We used to have an ancient, mean old chihuahua when I was a teen. He would get aggressive if anyone bothered him in his sleep or tried to take something away from him. It took about 3 months for me to get to the point where I accidentally tripped over him in his bed while he was sleeping and all he did was give me the stink eye and go back to sleep.

It was just baby steps. I would alert him to my intentions. (I kept saying certain words for specific situations after I called him by name) I would never make prolonged direct eye contact unless I was calling him or tossing a treat. If he so much as gave me the stink eye, I would immediately back off to keep him under threshold and then the treats started coming so I could do whatever without making him mad.

One thing that worked for him with rude awakenings was throwing a high value treat at him. It's kind of a funny picture looking back. Sneaking into his sleeping area, throwing a small chunk of chicken meat hard at him and then scurrying away so all he would find is surprise chicken.

Kinda hard to stay mad when it's like a little surprise party whenever I woke him rudely.

Edit: One more thought- diffusing some essential oils for stress relief and relaxation (like lavender), and DAP might help take a bit of the edge off for the puppy. There is also some calming aid tablets made by GNC we got a while back that helped a lot with Clyde getting overstimulated on long trips. Might be worth a shot if your dog will eat almost anything.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> 100% agree with this.
> 
> The step being missed in some other posts here is that you need to work under threshold. Start dropping treats at a distance that doesn't trigger a response from your dog and then slowly work your way closer. Use the same steps for trading. Start with lower value items and work your way up to high value items. There shouldn't be any growling during these trading sessions.
> 
> ...


Yes this. 

Hiraeth, your father in that situation was improperly applying the +R technique which is why you didn't see the results you want.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Yes this.
> 
> Hiraeth, your father in that situation was improperly applying the +R technique which is why you didn't see the results you want.


Absolutely  He doesn't understand things like that, though, as he approaches dog training like a vast majority of people who post for help here. 

Applying the "trade up" method like Sassafras suggested, in a controlled and deliberate exercise, makes much more sense than the first posts that suggested trading up WHILE the dog was growling and displaying aggression. As Sassafras mentioned, _"In the moment that the dog is growling, just manage it - it's not a teaching moment. The dog is not in an emotional state to focus or learn anything, really. Work on training later."_

Walking around and throwing treats to your dog WHILE he's growling is (in my opinion), rewarding unwanted behavior and a recipe for disaster.

I still prefer P- and then R+ to reinforce what I want out of my dogs when it comes to most things. If you think about it, P- and then R+ is the most commonly used training method with puppies. Examples - if a puppy is jumping on you, you turn around and take away attention (P-) and then when the behavior calms, you turn back around and reward with attention (R+). If a puppy is continuously biting your hand, you remove the hand (P-) and then replace with a toy (R+) and reward. If your puppy is chasing cats, you either allow the cats to escape or halt the chase (P-) and then give the puppy a toy instead (R+). Redirection is in essence a P- and then an R+ exercise. 

However, the difference between my situation and OP's situation is the fear behind the behavior. My dogs are NOT afraid of me, and therefore it's a different training exercise. Because OP's dog has been previously scared by P- training methods and is unapproachable whether there is a resource around or not, using solely R+ is probably a much better initial approach (as I have repeatedly said). 

The reason I keep saying that there are two ways to approach the situation is because in the future, when other people with this same problem find this thread, I think it would be helpful if they had exposure to BOTH methods. The better method to deal with resource guarding in a very fearful dog, which is trading up and R+, and then a different method to deal with resource guarding in a dog or puppy that isn't fearful, which would be P- followed with R+.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

The problem with removing the food is you can actually create or worsen RGing that way. The dog doesn't want you to take the food so they growl, then you take the food away. The dog says to itself, "Hey, I was right to guard that food, that person DOES want to take it from me, I better guard it better next time"

Or the dog doesn't even growl, you just randomly take their food and they go "Omg stop taking my food you jerk, I'm trying to eat!" and start trying to prevent their food from being taken. 

It isn't a fear of -you-, it's a fear of losing the resource that they find valuable.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Something else to add.

I was at a training seminar this weekend that was discussing RGing a bit. The presenter was talking about a client who had a dog with RGing issues. The husband in the household was a big burly man and corrected the dog for growling and kept taking the dog's things. The dog stopped RGing from him.

Then later, their little girl tried to take something from the dog and the dog went after her and bit her. 

The dog knew he couldn't win against the dad, but the little kid was an easy battle. The dad had created conflict around having valuable things and make the dog feel the need to guard them and feel tense when people approached, and the little girl paid the price for it.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> The problem with removing the food is you can actually create or worsen RGing that way. The dog doesn't want you to take the food so they growl, then you take the food away. The dog says to itself, "Hey, I was right to guard that food, that person DOES want to take it from me, I better guard it better next time"
> 
> Or the dog doesn't even growl, you just randomly take their food and they go "Omg stop taking my food you jerk, I'm trying to eat!" and start trying to prevent their food from being taken.
> 
> It isn't a fear of -you-, it's a fear of losing the resource that they find valuable.


On the opposite side, if you don't remove the resource, the dog figures out that guarding allows them to keep the resource. And "trading up" while guarding behavior is occurring reinforces growling, as well. 

This is why RG is a really difficult behavior to deal with, and I firmly believe that different methods work with different dogs. Like I said, all three of my adult dogs were vicious resource guarders when I adopted them, and now would allow me to walk up, remove a toy/bone/food and then sit there and wait for me to return it because they know that if they don't growl, the resource is returned to them, generally along with an even higher value reward and praise. That being said, I don't just walk up and remove resources from my dogs unnecessarily - I only remove when RG behavior (growling, lowering of the head over the resource) occurs, which these days is about once every six months or so.

OP's dog is afraid of -her-. If you read her original post, she can no longer walk near him, or touch him, or leash him. Which is why this isn't a case of solely RG, it's a case of RG mixed with straight up FA. Which makes it even MORE difficult to deal with, and why I think that deliberate trading up and dropping high value treats is a very reasonable training method to use. The key word being *deliberate*, as Sassafras said in her post. Randomly rewarding growling and fear behaviors will NOT (in my opinion) improve OP's situation.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> On the opposite side, if you don't remove the resource, the dog figures out that guarding allows them to keep the resource. And "trading up" while guarding behavior is occurring reinforces growling, as well.
> 
> This is why RG is a really difficult behavior to deal with, and I firmly believe that different methods work with different dogs. Like I said, all three of my adult dogs were vicious resource guarders when I adopted them, and now would allow me to walk up, remove a toy/bone/food and then sit there and wait for me to return it because they know that if they don't growl, the resource is returned to them, generally along with an even higher value reward and praise. That being said, I don't just walk up and remove resources from my dogs unnecessarily - I only remove when RG behavior (growling, lowering of the head over the resource) occurs, which these days is about once every six months or so.
> 
> OP's dog is afraid of -her-. If you read her original post, she can no longer walk near him, or touch him, or leash him. Which is why this isn't a case of solely RG, it's a case of RG mixed with straight up FA. Which makes it even MORE difficult to deal with, and why I think that deliberate trading up and dropping high value treats is a very reasonable training method to use. The key word being *deliberate*, as Sassafras said in her post. Randomly rewarding growling and fear behaviors will NOT (in my opinion) improve OP's situation.


All I'm trying to say is that this can be very dangerous advice (taking the item when the dog is guarding it), and not something I would suggest over an online forum to someone I didn't know with a dog I didn't know.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also moreover, you never never never want to punish a growl. A growl is valuable communication, you never want to take that away.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Again, you are NOT throwing treats while the dog is growling. If the dog is already growling, it's not a training moment. It's a management moment.

If your dog is growling when you throw treats, you need to throw treats from farther away. Move closer as your dog's threshold distance changes.

The technique works if it is used properly. Timing and only working under threshold are critical, though. User error doesn't mean the technique is ineffective. RG is really one of the easiest behavior problems to address IMO because it is so formulaic. The formula just has to be applied correctly.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I. . .don't want to know what would have happened if I took Moose's food back when he used to RG . That probably would not have ended well for either of us. I did it fairly clumsily, too, and it still worked. I just got as close as I could until he started to give me the side-eye, then tossed a treat (aiming for his bowl. . .not that my aim was any good). As he got used to it, I could get closer before he started to side-eye me. Eventually, he was wagging his tail while I put treats in his bowl directly, then I'd pick up his bowl and put yummy treats in it and put it back down. Now I CAN take his food away but I don't because that's just kind of jerkish. It is pretty simple and formulaic, and I haven't seen it fail yet if the person follows the steps properly.

And, re: story about the Rott mix---Rotts are "talky". They growl and grumble and mumble to themselves. It isn't always a real growl. If he's happy and wagging his tail I'd say he's just being rumbly.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I will add, too, that I think punishment can absolutely suppress the _behavior_. But it does nothing to touch the root _cause_ of RG, which is fear/anxiety - the dog is afraid you are going to take his/her stuff away. If you address the fear (which the above techniques, applied properly, will do - it's really just desensitization/counterconditioning like any other fear-based problem), then the behavior will change along with it. Win-win. 

If you suppress the behavior you see (growling), that root cause is still there and not only can it erupt later, but the dog is still _feeling_ anxious, which... yuck. And it doesn't mean you can't ever take anything away from your dog. It means that your dog trusts you to not take stuff away willy-nilly.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I will add, too, that I think punishment can absolutely suppress the _behavior_. But it does nothing to touch the root _cause_ of RG, which is fear/anxiety - the dog is afraid you are going to take his/her stuff away. If you address the fear (which the above techniques, applied properly, will do - it's really just desensitization/counterconditioning like any other fear-based problem), then the behavior will change along with it. Win-win.
> 
> If you suppress the behavior you see (growling), that root cause is still there and not only can it erupt later, but the dog is still _feeling_ anxious, which... yuck. And it doesn't mean you can't ever take anything away from your dog. It means that your dog trusts you to not take stuff away willy-nilly.


This... A hundred times this.

Please do NOT punish your dog for the "symptoms" of RG (growling, snapping, hunching over to protect the resource).

A friend of mine punished her dog for RG-ing. He now bites without warning if you go even close to him. For a while it seemed like his RG-ing had been "cured" by the use of punishment. Now you don't know when he will attack you because he does it without warning.

As a person who has a dog with severe RG-ing... I will tell you gaining the dog's trust is the most important part. Do NOT punish him for it. You want him to trust you and your hand so that you CAN take things away when he has something inappropriate.

The trade up game is a great way to start. Associating your hand with rewarding things is great too.

And first and foremost.. please give him time, be patient, and be understanding. It took Meeko months before his RG-ing was under control. Within the first few weeks of working on the trade up game, he was no longer guarding toys or chews... but it took a full year before I could call him off raw meat (highest value resource for him).


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

As a person I've warned people not to touch my food because I will bite them and they've done it anyway so I bit them. Am I resource guarding or am I just giving people who didn't heed my warning the consequence of their actions? <-- and I'm a human (At least I'm like 99% sure I am  )

Actually lets take this as an example of why I don't think you should take away a dogs food

I was a child when my father used to steal food off of my plate and eat it. I thought it was hilarious. Of course I did I was a child.

I would grow older and he would keep doing it. It became less and less funny. I kept telling him (growling) and he kept doing it (ignoring warning signs)

Now I snap at him for jokingly stealing my napkin and he gets mad at me for yelling at him. He has conditioned me to SNAP at him when he TAKES something from me because he had kept doing it even though I would TELL him it was bothering me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Apply that to a dog


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I honestly don't even understand the mindset of punishing growling. What is so horrible about growling? It's a method of communication, why is it a problem?

You know what a dog that growled didn't do? Bite. And -that- is a very good thing.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea to me, growling is not an actionable offense. It's a signal that I need to figure out _why_ my dog is growling. And then fix it if I can. 

Once in a great while you'll meet a dog who just kind of has a screw loose, but the vast majority of the time IME it comes down to some kind of discomfort - either physical or mental.


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## HVani (Jun 11, 2015)

I think people take it as an insult when I dog growls at them. A sort of "How DARE you growl at me? A Human?" not realizing it's a warning. I know I use to feel this way until I learned otherwise.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

missc89 said:


> As a person I've warned people not to touch my food because I will bite them and they've done it anyway so I bit them. Am I resource guarding or am I just giving people who didn't heed my warning the consequence of their actions? <-- and I'm a human (At least I'm like 99% sure I am  )
> 
> Actually lets take this as an example of why I don't think you should take away a dogs food
> 
> ...


It's not really applicable, honestly. Human behaviors are different than dog behaviors, and your dad never gave you back the things he took - he just kept taking. Not at all the same situation.



sassafras said:


> Yea to me, growling is not an actionable offense. It's a signal that I need to figure out _why_ my dog is growling. And then fix it if I can.
> 
> Once in a great while you'll meet a dog who just kind of has a screw loose, but the vast majority of the time IME it comes down to some kind of discomfort - either physical or mental.


I agree. My dogs were growling because they thought I was going to take something and not give it back. I have minimized that fear by removing things from them and repeatedly giving the things back, along with a reward for allowing the removal. It is also a designed process, at the start. Give the dog a toy, wait for the display of behavior, calmly remove the toy, give the toy back with a treat. Repeat. Eventually, the toy gets taken and the dog thinks "no big deal, I'm getting that back or getting a treat or both". In a way, it's the same thought process as trading up - allowing me to remove the resource is rewarded with a treat. However, instead of rewarding up front, while the guarding behavior is happening, I reward after the behavior has stopped and the dog is calmly waiting for his/her treat or object.

Again - performed with dogs who have not bitten their owners. If someone's dog has shown a willingness to bite them, then a different approach should be used.

Out of curiosity, does the "trading up" method run the risk of the dog's owners being allowed to remove resources, but the dog still RGing towards less familiar people? It strikes me that just because OP's puppy will eventually allow her and her husband to remove resources because of "trading up", that doesn't necessarily mean strangers will be allowed the same privilege. But is that the way it actually works in practice? Will the puppy associate every human approaching with "oh good, not a threat, treat time"? Or will you need to go through the process repeatedly with each individual who may have to interact with the puppy?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> I agree. My dogs were growling because they thought I was going to take something and not give it back. I have minimized that fear by removing things from them and repeatedly giving the things back, along with a reward for allowing the removal. It is also a designed process, at the start. Give the dog a toy, wait for the display of behavior, calmly remove the toy, give the toy back with a treat. Repeat. Eventually, the toy gets taken and the dog thinks "no big deal, I'm getting that back or getting a treat or both". In a way, it's the same thought process as trading up - allowing me to remove the resource is rewarded with a treat. However, instead of rewarding up front, while the guarding behavior is happening, I reward after the behavior has stopped and the dog is calmly waiting for his/her treat or object.


That or the dog thinks, hey jerk, stop taking the thing I'm trying to eat/play randomly with and becomes guardy.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> That or the dog thinks, hey jerk, stop taking the thing I'm trying to eat/play randomly with and becomes guardy.


Hasn't happened yet, or I'd use a different approach  While RGing is not acceptable in any size dog, having 140 lb, 130 lb, 120 lb and 90 lb resource guarders all in the same house is beyond scary.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Hasn't happened yet, or I'd use a different approach  While RGing is not acceptable in any size dog, having 140 lb, 130 lb, 120 lb and 90 lb resource guarders all in the same house is beyond scary.


I guess you'll change your approach if and when you (or someone else) get bit, rather than using an approach that doesn't risk that?

I've seen plenty of dogs made guardy by people randomly taking/giving back their food while they're eating, or randomly taking toys. 

I've seen plenty of dogs put down because people insist on taking things the dog is guarding and/or punishing them for growling.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> It's not really applicable, honestly. Human behaviors are different than dog behaviors, and your dad never gave you back the things he took - he just kept taking. Not at all the same situation.


The point is that there were warnings and he didn't heed them and now I don't share food. Its a monkey-base instinct that ALL animals share, it is not specific to just humans or just dogs.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

missc89 said:


> The point is that there were warnings and he didn't heed them and now I don't share food. Its a monkey-base instinct that ALL animals share, it is not specific to just humans or just dogs.


I gotta say, if someone kept taking and giving back my food while I was trying to eat I would be pretty irritated with them pretty quickly.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I gotta say, if someone kept taking and giving back my food while I was trying to eat I would be pretty irritated with them pretty quickly.


Yeah, didn't matter that he'd give me back food from his plate, it was the principle that he thought it was 'just okay to take things from me'. If I don't like it why would I do it to anyone else, human or not?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

missc89 said:


> The point is that there were warnings and he didn't heed them and now I don't share food. Its a monkey-base instinct that ALL animals share, it is not specific to just humans or just dogs.


Right. My dogs showed me warnings that they were uncomfortable with me being near their resources. I worked to increase their comfort level and build their trust by removing and returning the resource repeatedly. Now they know that when I take things away, they get them back. 

*shrug* I don't share food and no one ever took food from me. But there's a big difference between taking food/resources from another human and taking food/resources from a dog. Example - if a child has a toy and is crying because it's bed time and the toy needs to be put away and they don't want you to take it from them, do you give them a bigger, better toy and then take the first one away? Heck no. Or at least, I hope not. You use words and simply remove the toy. If a child doesn't want to share her toys with another child, do you say "it's okay, I'll give you this bigger, better toy instead!". Nope, you force the kid to share. Because that's a lesson kids have to learn. Kids are pretty unlikely to bite and draw blood, though (again, I hope). 

On top of that, children don't naturally resource guard. Dogs do. I can't imagine a situation where food needs to be actively taken from a child because the child is guarding it, but IF that situation arose, would you give the kid a different, more amazing piece of food instead and then remove the other one? Probably not. Like, I dunno, if a kid has a piece of candy they aren't supposed to have and you go to take it and they throw a tantrum - do you bribe them with something else and reward the tantrum because you're taking away something they shouldn't have? That's about the closest scenario I can think of that relates to dogs...

Point being that relating resource guarding in humans and dogs is mostly unreasonable, and the situations should be handled entirely differently. 

Taking food from a dog is sometimes necessary. I cut my finger open while my dogs were eating not too long ago, and it needed immediate medical attention. Since I don't leave my dogs eating in the house while I am away, I had to remove their dinners from them before I left for the hospital. I took the bowls away, rewarded them with treats and left. Nineteen stitches later, I came back home and returned their food.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> The reason why this isn't the case is because you can't reward/punish an emotion. The dog is scared you're going to take away his item. You have to show him that there's nothing to be scared about, and instead change how he feels about you approaching him to a positive emotion. "Oh good, my person is approaching! They usually give me something yummy!" vs "Oh no! My person is coming! They're probably going to try and take this great thing I have I better get ready to protect it!"
> 
> You can suppress the behaviour, but you don't change the actual root of the problem.
> 
> ...


I agree, if I got $100 for every time I saw a spider or was near them, I might start to feel better about them too ... hell ... for a big enough "treat" (LOL) I might even hold one haha.

OP: Your puppy is afraid of you, "dominant" personality puppies/dogs are very rare, I have only had one true dominant personality in my 20 years of having dogs. But a dominant personality doesnt feel the need to guard because they are confident in themselves and arent afraid to "lose" anything. If course from day one, I do the "trade up" or take the item away and praise and give it right back. 

For some things like brushing, and bathing I am a bit more firm about. My boy hated brushing, and bathing too and would throw a fit. I would just tell him "no!" firmly and reposition him in the proper way for me to brush or bathe him, rinse, repeat. I had him leashed so if I had to let go of him, I could still have him. I was patient, and I didnt "give into"or let their tantrums affect me, I just let them know that I was going to get done what I wanted regardless of how much they fought me, and afterwards, they got a yummy treat! Now my boy will patiently stand for brushing, and bathing. 

I am all for positive and non aversive, but some things are always going to be unpleasant to some dogs, and as long as they know I wont HURT them, then I consider that a win.

For your guy, I would leash him, present the brush, show it to him, and then give him a treat, once he is comfortable with seeing it, then touch him with it, withdraw the brush and treat him. Your dog is scared because to him you are unpredictable loud scary giants that punish him for communicating when he is uncomfortable about something, so now he goes straight to biting. That and he is entering the teen phase.


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## HVani (Jun 11, 2015)

> Out of curiosity, does the "trading up" method run the risk of the dog's owners being allowed to remove resources, but the dog still RGing towards less familiar people? It strikes me that just because OP's puppy will eventually allow her and her husband to remove resources because of "trading up", that doesn't necessarily mean strangers will be allowed the same privilege. But is that the way it actually works in practice? Will the puppy associate every human approaching with "oh good, not a threat, treat time"? Or will you need to go through the process repeatedly with each individual who may have to interact with the puppy?


Just curious, why do strangers need to be able to take treats/food from my dogs? 

I have used both methods and both worked. I had minor RG in one of my dogs and I wanted to nip it in the bud before it developed. She was always tense with the, take it away, give it back methods. With the trading up she was super happy to play the game. Mostly hers was while eating dinner. So I would walk by and drop yummy stuff in her bowl. She soon became excited if I came around while she was eating. I rarely needed to but it was something I wanted to take care of before it became a problem. 

Now I pretty much exclusively use trade up. It greatly reduces the risk of a bite. Any animal, with teeth, can bite. It's just a matter of what they will put up with. I don't like pushing a situation that could lead to a bite if pushed enough. Therefore trade up has replaced my other method. This is based on my own experience. While I may know what to look for to avoid a bite, my husband or pet sitter do not. Therefore trade up is a great game for my dog to know.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Yeah I wouldn't want my dog to willingly take things from strangers - you never know who may have poisoned food.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

HVani said:


> Just curious, why do strangers need to be able to take treats/food from my dogs?
> 
> I have used both methods and both worked. I had minor RG in one of my dogs and I wanted to nip it in the bud before it developed. She was always tense with the, take it away, give it back methods. With the trading up she was super happy to play the game. Mostly hers was while eating dinner. So I would walk by and drop yummy stuff in her bowl. She soon became excited if I came around while she was eating. I rarely needed to but it was something I wanted to take care of before it became a problem.
> 
> Now I pretty much exclusively use trade up. It greatly reduces the risk of a bite. Any animal, with teeth, can bite. It's just a matter of what they will put up with. I don't like pushing a situation that could lead to a bite if pushed enough. Therefore trade up has replaced my other method. This is based on my own experience. While I may know what to look for to avoid a bite, my husband or pet sitter do not. Therefore trade up is a great game for my dog to know.


I was just thinking for dogs that go to daycare, or have pet sitters, or people who have family members watch their dogs, or if you have friends over and your friend wants to throw a ball for the dog and reaches down to grab the one the dog has. Just situations like that. Will the dog relate all of those people with "approach=treat", or is there a different method to getting them used to less familiar people with resources around? Or does it just require repeated training with these less familiar people? 

Like I've said from the beginning, I'm open to the approach (as described by Sassafras, meaning setting up deliberate training sessions and not treating while the dog is actually growling), especially for super fearful dogs like OP's, it's just not the approach I currently use. Since we're talking about it and the conversation will help OP, too, I'd like to learn.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The general point of counter-conditioning is to change the dog's emotional response to something, and that should generalize to prevent RGing against all people. IDK. Last week, a visiting kid went and randomly grabbed Moose's dish (a 13-year-old; I didn't think to watch her too closely because she should know better!) and he was perfectly happy about it. So I guess it worked for him. 

And, yeah, Moose got that way because his first owner thought it was funny/macho to tease him by taking his food away randomly :/. I don't blame him a bit for getting cranky about it.

Note: he does still guard toys/stolen items a bit. Not to the point of growling or biting but he WILL NOT let go. I trade up if I need to take a toy/stolen item away. A slice of ham is usually better than hanging on to whatever it is.


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## HVani (Jun 11, 2015)

Hmm for me personally I would teach a really strong drop it for toys. I also would not let anyone play with toys with my dog until the dog had been worked with for resource guarding. I think management is the best for those situations. Pulling toys when you know someone will be over. My dog Eevee was the worse for demand barking at strangers to throw a tennis ball. She would not do it with us and it was impossible to manage when friends were over. The solution became, no tennis balls out while we had company. Not exactly the same but the same idea of management. 

I use to work at a dog daycare and we were taught trade up as a way to get a toy or trash or something away from a dog that was guarding it. Then toys would be removed altogether. It was a way to manage a situation and prevent bites. Same for when I worked at the local shelter as part of the behavior team. It was all about people safety. You never know what will push a dog too far.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> Out of curiosity, does the "trading up" method run the risk of the dog's owners being allowed to remove resources, but the dog still RGing towards less familiar people? It strikes me that just because OP's puppy will eventually allow her and her husband to remove resources because of "trading up", that doesn't necessarily mean strangers will be allowed the same privilege. But is that the way it actually works in practice? Will the puppy associate every human approaching with "oh good, not a threat, treat time"? Or will you need to go through the process repeatedly with each individual who may have to interact with the puppy?


How would your method mitigate the same risk? Wouldn't you need go through the same process with every person who may interact with the dog?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cookieface said:


> How would your method mitigate the same risk? Wouldn't you need go through the same process with every person who may interact with the dog?


Heh, I never said it does. Not sure why everyone is so on the offense about the fact that I use a different method than the one suggested, but to clarify - I worked with each of my dogs on an individual basis after adoption, and then had my boyfriend at the time participate with me (I thought a member of the opposite sex working with them was important). By the time my parents or friends ever tried to remove resources, the dogs had no reaction. However, that being said, by that point I had owned the dogs for many months, they had settled into their environment and they had been steadily fed and given attention for that entire time. Therefore, it may not have been my method of "removal = reward" that worked on a multiple-person basis so much as a settling down into a new home and free access to resources the dogs never had in a shelter. 

As it is, it's been gone over multiple times now, and we've all decided that it's NOT the best method for OP - it would be nice to get an actual answer to my question about "trading up" versus continuous challenges about what I do with my own dogs. 

I'm considering how to apply "trading up" to my dad's Rott mix, as Little Dog doesn't respond as well to other methods, and I'd like to know if it's something we'd have to practice with unfamiliar people as well, or if a modified type of "trading up" will help him overcome some of his fear growling that has no apparent source.

ETA: I'm pretty sure this will be useful information for OP, as I think she'll want to be able to take her puppy out of the home without fear of him guarding, and will therefore need to work with him and other people if "trading up" doesn't work universally and needs to be reinforced with "strangers", as well.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think trading up would work for fear growling in general. I'm sure there's some kind of counter-conditioning technique but it would be different from RG CCing. LAT would probably help, I think that could fall under the definition of reactive.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Willowy said:


> I don't think trading up would work for fear growling in general. I'm sure there's some kind of counter-conditioning technique but it would be different from RG CCing. LAT would probably help, I think that could fall under the definition of reactive.


Okay, thanks  I'll do some reading and maybe start another thread about Little Dog if I run into troubles so as not to clog up OP's thread about RG.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I think people are "on the offense" because the method you're using has a higher chance of backfiring and leading to a bite instead of preventing it. On the internet where people have varying degrees of skills and knowledge of dog body language, etc. and we don't know and can't actually see the dog in question, generally the advice least likely to cause fallout is the safest.

And also, if there is misunderstanding about how to correctly apply a technique, yes I'm going to try to correct misunderstandings. The same way that if someone says "I'd like to see you wave a cookie to recall your dog off a deer" means they don't actually understand how positive reinforcement training to teach recall even works, something like "dropping food while your dog is growling..." isn't correctly explaining the actual technique I'm advising (since the dog shouldn't BE growling if you're training correctly under threshold). 

Every dog is different and different things work for different dogs. Years ago I had a dog who growled at me over a bone, and I didn't really know any differently so I grabbed it and really hollered at her. That dog never RG'd against a person again. However, while it worked for THAT dog it's not a technique I would ever really recommend especially not over the internet to a stranger.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> I think people are "on the offense" because the method you're using has a higher chance of backfiring and leading to a bite instead of preventing it. On the internet where people have varying degrees of skills and knowledge of dog body language, etc. and we don't know and can't actually see the dog in question, generally the advice least likely to cause fallout is the safest.
> 
> And also, if there is misunderstanding about how to correctly apply a technique, yes I'm going to try to correct misunderstandings. The same way that if someone says "I'd like to see you wave a cookie to recall your dog off a deer" means they don't actually understand how positive reinforcement training to teach recall even works, something like "dropping food while your dog is growling..." isn't correctly explaining the actual technique I'm advising (since the dog shouldn't BE growling if you're training correctly under threshold).
> 
> Every dog is different and different things work for different dogs. Years ago I had a dog who growled at me over a bone, and I didn't really know any differently so I grabbed it and really hollered at her. That dog never RG'd against a person again. However, while it worked for THAT dog it's not a technique I would ever really recommend especially not over the internet to a stranger.


You were never one of commenters that I considered to be "on the offense". You actually helped to clarify the appropriate way to "trade up", because my initial "no way would I do that" response to the method was because the first several suggestions didn't make it clear that you don't "trade up" WHILE the dog is growling. 

I think there are certain levels of risk to both methods. If you "trade up" incorrectly while the dog is guarding, you reward guarding and increase the likelihood of the behavior. With my method, if your dog will actually fear bite because of previous failed training, then yes, you risk a bite. Either way, both approaches can backfire. 

Perhaps I've gotten lucky that my method has worked with training severe RG out of my three dogs, or perhaps it has just happened to work well with my other training, which all initially works to build trust.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Trading up, when done correctly, does not risk a bite. Your method, when done correctly (per your descriptions) does risk a bite and/or creating or worsening guarding behaviour.

This is my issue.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Trading up, when done correctly, does not risk a bite. Your method, when done correctly (per your descriptions) does risk a bite and/or creating or worsening guarding behaviour.
> 
> This is my issue.


Repeating myself from earlier:



> As it is, it's been gone over multiple times now, and we've all decided that it's NOT the best method for OP - it would be nice to get an actual answer to my question about "trading up" versus continuous challenges about what I do with my own dogs.


We're beating a dead horse, and it has no relevance to OP's questions at this point. _Not sure how many times I have to repeat that my training will NOT work in OP's situation, so why it's continuously cropping up when I have continuously tried to steer the conversation back to helpful advice to both OP and myself is beyond me. _

ETA: If we'd like to create a separate thread to continue to discuss/tear apart training methods that have worked repeatedly for me, then that's fine. But taking over OP's thread with continuous non-helpful discussion is something I'm really trying to repeatedly avoid.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

It's not the best method in general, not just for the OP but for anyone else reading that is dealing with RGing with their own dogs. I want to make sure they're aware that what you're suggesting is dangerous and could make the problem worse.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hiraeth said:


> I think there are certain levels of risk to both methods. If you "trade up" incorrectly while the dog is guarding, you reward guarding and increase the likelihood of the behavior. With my method, if your dog will actually fear bite because of previous failed training, then yes, you risk a bite. Either way, both approaches can backfire.


I guess I didn't feel a need to specify that trading up _when done correctly_ has very little to no risk of backfiring. I mean, any technique done incorrectly isn't going to work the way you want it to?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> I guess I didn't feel a need to specify that trading up _when done correctly_ has very little to no risk of backfiring. I mean, any technique done incorrectly isn't going to work the way you want it to?


Of course. When used correctly, my method requires an understanding of the situation at hand and the dog. I've never been bitten, nor have I felt like a bit was imminent, because I know my dogs and their body language. If I felt uncomfortable and thought that my dog would bite, I would have looked into different methodology.

The first couple of replies suggested using trading up incorrectly (hence my initial 'that sounds like a bad idea' response). You responded, Sassafras, and corrected for the step that was missing in the first several responder's posts, to which I immediately responded 'oh, okay, that sounds more like it'. Therefore, if anyone comes along and reads the first few posts in this thread and thinks "oh, I'll try that", they'll be rewarding guarding behavior as its occurring and NOT setting up deliberate interactions like you suggested about halfway into the first page.

So, clarifying that it needs to be done correctly, the way you suggested, is relevant considering the first replies.

You also mentioned that you corrected improperly many years ago and that it DID work  So SOME techniques, as a fluke, WILL work when performed incorrectly, however they're not generally very advisable.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea relying on luck isn't something I'd generally recommend. I think we all get lucky with dogs more often than we realize, but I'd rather do something that consistently works across the board.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Yea relying on luck isn't something I'd generally recommend. I think we all get lucky with dogs more often than we realize, but I'd rather do something that consistently works across the board.


Agreed. And my method has worked for *me personally* consistently across the board, with many resource guarders. I will take into consideration everyone's advice here and perhaps not mention it in the future when resource guarding threads crop up. 

I personally don't feel uncomfortable using it with my dogs, as it delivers the results that I want - calm, balanced dogs who are totally okay with me removing resources and returning them with rewards for good behavior. However, if I run into a dog who doesn't take to my method, for one reason or another, believe me, this is the first place I'll turn for alternate methods and advice


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> Agreed. And my method has worked for *me personally* consistently across the board, with many resource guarders. I will take into consideration everyone's advice here and perhaps not mention it in the future when resource guarding threads crop up.
> 
> I personally don't feel uncomfortable using it with my dogs, as it delivers the results that I want - calm, balanced dogs who are totally okay with me removing resources and returning them with rewards for good behavior. However, if I run into a dog who doesn't take to my method, for one reason or another, believe me, this is the first place I'll turn for alternate methods and advice


The thing is if you (or someone else who decides to whim-fully try your methods) meets a dog that doesn't like the method then you're not going to be coming on here and saying "opps the doggy wasn't happy with that", you're going to come with stiches saying OUCH the dog wasn't happy with that.

The whole benefit of R+ is that there's no risk when done right and even it is done wrong the risk is only oppps I made the problem a little more complicated and you can fix that by correcting the method, all while typing with no stiches in your hand.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> The thing is if you (or someone else who decides to whim-fully try your methods) meets a dog that doesn't like the method then you're not going to be coming on here and saying "opps the doggy wasn't happy with that", you're going to come with stiches saying OUCH the dog wasn't happy with that.
> 
> The whole benefit of R+ is that there's no risk when done right and even it is done wrong the risk is only oppps I made the problem a little more complicated and you can fix that by correcting the method, all while typing with no stiches in your hand.


*sigh* How many times do I need to try to revert this thread to OP's issues and remove the comments about my own training methods, which we have discussed, hashed out and decided aren't the best for everyone already? :deadhorse:

Gingerwrinklepup, if you had read the comments before you, this has already been said. Quite a few times. And I've said, in response, quite a few times, that if you think your dog will bite your hand, don't put your hand there. I've never feared that my dogs would bite me, which is why my method works FOR ME. Since OP's dog does bite her hand, this method *won't* work for her.

Getting sick of repeating and continuously trying to keep this thread on track to help solve OP's problem for people who aren't reading before commenting.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

My head is fairly hurting after reading four pages regarding RG...ugh. Does anybody remember the original post???? We are talking about a five month old corgi, who has been in the home for 3 months, and for the first month, the poster reports no problems, so at three months (after a month in the home) a corgi is suddenly cujo??? They report they can't even approach this puppy...to remove or put on a leash? Not exactly resource guarding. Something has gone afoul with trust here. Someone else questioned the usage of the term "certified breeder" and that was a red flag to me as well, although nobody else seemed to give it much due. What the heck is a "certified breeder?" The only term that even comes to mind is USDA moniker of a puppy broker or breeder. Of course the general public doesn't know this. But it surely makes me wonder, in fact suspect, this is a miller pup. May not be relevant to the problem, but it might have some implications.

The trust bond probably broke at the "yelling at and throwing the pup in the crate" scenario described in the original post. Who knows what chaos this pup went through prior to going to this home from that "certified breeder." I've raised a lot puppies and have raised my share of litters. I'm not a "certified breeder" because I don't know what that means. Interesting that cheetohunter's breeder refuses to respond to her. That is not a GOOD breeder. I'll take "good" over some USDA paper that says "certified" any day. In any event...I've raised some precocious pups. And remember we are talking about a FIVE MONTH OLD corgi puppy. The five month old pups I've raised are the size of a full-grown corgi. I never have been, nor will ever be, afraid of a five month old puppy of ANY breed. 

To me, at this point...based on the original post...the puppy is simply terrified in general of the owners. They obviously don't trust him, and he doesn't trust them. What makes my head hurt is that 4 pages have been devoted to snippets of so-called "wisdom" that has nothing to do with the actual original problem. Snippets such as "you should never correct a growl, because a growl is simply communication" or whatever....yes, that has MERIT, IF you understand the context. There are times to respect a growl, and there are times to squash a growl. 

I'm going to comment further, but this particular response is getting too long. But I'll leave with this thought...unless I missed it, I haven't heard anybody recommend the "nothing in life for free" response to this PUPPY. Stop the yelling...stop the fear.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

"About a month ago he started becoming aggressive towards anyone who would come near him while he eats or while he enjoys a larger than normal treat" sounds resource guarding to me.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

PaddiB said:


> My head is fairly hurting after reading four pages regarding RG...ugh. Does anybody remember the original post???? We are talking about a five month old corgi, who has been in the home for 3 months, and for the first month, the poster reports no problems, so at three months (after a month in the home) a corgi is suddenly cujo??? They report they can't even approach this puppy...to remove or put on a leash? Not exactly resource guarding. Something has gone afoul with trust here. Someone else questioned the usage of the term "certified breeder" and that was a red flag to me as well, although nobody else seemed to give it much due. What the heck is a "certified breeder?" The only term that even comes to mind is USDA moniker of a puppy broker or breeder. Of course the general public doesn't know this. But it surely makes me wonder, in fact suspect, this is a miller pup. May not be relevant to the problem, but it might have some implications.
> 
> The trust bond probably broke at the "yelling at and throwing the pup in the crate" scenario described in the original post. Who knows what chaos this pup went through prior to going to this home from that "certified breeder." I've raised a lot puppies and have raised my share of litters. I'm not a "certified breeder" because I don't know what that means. Interesting that cheetohunter's breeder refuses to respond to her. That is not a GOOD breeder. I'll take "good" over some USDA paper that says "certified" any day. In any event...I've raised some precocious pups. And remember we are talking about a FIVE MONTH OLD corgi puppy. The five month old pups I've raised are the size of a full-grown corgi. I never have been, nor will ever be, afraid of a five month old puppy of ANY breed.
> 
> ...


It's hard to build trust with a dog you can't even touch, so the first step for OP to rebuild trust and decrease fear is to figure out how to approach the dog. Which is why this was in my first post:



> Instead of researching and working on resource guarding, I'd suggest doing trust-building exercises with him in order to convince him that you and your husband aren't just going to suddenly turn into yelling monsters.


You can't say NO ONE has recommended trust building  The RG conversation just took off because there was a disagreement in how to handle the behavior appropriately, and people in general find it much more interesting to talk about a disagreement over methodology than to reassess OP's post and make alternative suggestions.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> *sigh* How many times do I need to try to revert this thread to OP's issues and remove the comments about my own training methods, which we have discussed, hashed out and decided aren't the best for everyone already? :deadhorse:
> 
> Gingerwrinklepup, if you had read the comments before you, this has already been said. Quite a few times. And I've said, in response, quite a few times, that if you think your dog will bite your hand, don't put your hand there. I've never feared that my dogs would bite me, which is why my method works FOR ME. Since OP's dog does bite her hand, this method *won't* work for her.
> 
> Getting sick of repeating and continuously trying to keep this thread on track to help solve OP's problem for people who aren't reading before commenting.


Yes the methods worked with your dogs and you don't recommend it for dogs that will bite but what I'm on about is the bit of your comment:




Hiraeth said:


> However, if I run into a dog who doesn't take to my method, for one reason or another, believe me, this is the first place I'll turn for alternate methods and advice


If you or another users dog doesn't take the method you're trying it's isn't going to be woooops, it's be oh god ow noooo.
There's no real way to tell if a new dog is going to bite you or not if you ignore the growl it's doing so your method is either going to go right for you (or anyone else) or it's going to go terribly wrong. The next step after a growl is a bite, you've already ignored all the other dogs signals so there's only two ways to go, either the dog is going to not react or it is at this point and if it does then it's going to be explosive generally.

The advice is dangerous and so is trying to keep practicing the technique yourself, so yes you're right... You've been lucky until now.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Besides, we can't really give more advice until OP let's us know what they have or haven't tried anew to rectify the situation, and then give us an update on how that went.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> "About a month ago he started becoming aggressive towards anyone who would come near him while he eats or while he enjoys a larger than normal treat" sounds resource guarding to me.


Yes, I think the root of the issue was RG. I think, because of the vocal and physical training methods OP used (yelling/throwing in cage), the RG has developed into full blown FA, indicated by the puppy not even allowing them to pet him, trim his nails, leash him, go near him, etc.

I think the FA needs to be dealt with before the root cause, the RG, which is why my initial post recommended trust building. 

I actually *never* recommended that OP use my training methods for RG, and only brought it up because ireth0 questioned my unwillingness to give treats to a growling dog. In fact, my first mention of my methods was followed up with these sentences:



> That being said, none of my dogs have ever progressed to the point that they have bitten me, so I'm not sure if that method will work for you. A few other members of this forum may have better advice for dealing with your particular situation, as I think my methodology would currently get both you and your husband bitten.





> That being said, different methods work for different people, and like I said, I'm not sure mine would work with a dog that has already progressed to biting.


Instead of dealing with OP's issues, several people jumped on my training method, which I *NEVER* recommended to OP, just mentioned and then said "I don't think that'll work, though", and then we all carried on about it for three pages, during which other people hopped on the bandwagon while never reading my original post, which recommended "work on trust building" and my next post, which clarified "this is how I deal with RG, but it won't work for you". (Sassafras, that paragraph wasn't directed at you, just to clarify because you're quoted above.)

ETA: To sum it up, I'd rather stick with my original advice, which was that OP needs to work on the puppy trusting her again, and then deal with the RG after the puppy will allow its owners to do basic things like leash/unleash and pet him.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

To be clear, you were the first person to mention treating the dog when it was growling when you said you didn't like trading up as a method to deal with RGing.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> To be clear, you were the first person to mention treating the dog when it was growling when you said you didn't like trading up as a method to deal with RGing.


Because OP is currently treating the dog while it's growling until the growling stops and then taking baby steps toward it and treating until the growling stops and then taking more steps. Your first post recommended that she continue with that line of training, even though OP indicated it's not working, and treating during growling is the wrong way to deal with RG. 

*shrug* I don't think giving treats to a FA dog while it's growling is a good idea, so I mentioned that.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Because OP is currently treating the dog while it's growling until the growling stops and then taking baby steps toward it and treating until the growling stops and then taking more steps. Your first post recommended that she continue with that line of training, even though OP indicated it's not working, and treating during growling is the wrong way to deal with RG.
> 
> *shrug* I don't think giving treats to a FA dog while it's growling is a good idea, so I mentioned that.


The OP said "trading up whatever he was protective over for a better treat." which mentions nothing about growling.

I recommended they continue the trading up with some additional suggestions, also never mentioning growling. 

You then mentioned treating growling as being not a good method, seemingly not understanding the trade up game, so I explained.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't think there's really anything wrongbad about discussing methods for RGing in a thread with a dog who is RGing.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Nope, you force the kid to share. Because that's a lesson kids have to learn.


No you don't and no its not. If a kid doesn't want to give something up to another kid because it is *theirs* they shouldn't have to. Sharing is a should be a choice.

In regards to RGing...Hiraeth, you advice is ill advised and outdated. I am with everybody else.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> No you don't and no its not. If a kid doesn't want to give something up to another kid because it is *theirs* they shouldn't have to. Sharing is a should be a choice.
> 
> In regards to RGing...Hiraeth, you advice is ill advised and outdated. I am with everybody else.


agreed, sharing should be a choice.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Hiraeth, you are correct...this was touched on...but not enough. My head is still spinning with all the arguments concerning giving and taking away...people bound by this or that technique...how do you KNOW whether or not your dog will bite you if you take it's bowl unless you PRACTICE it, on and on. As weird as it may sound...I think that anybody should be able to pick up a dog's food bowl at any time, but I DON'T believe that comes from PRACTICING doing that. The actual ROOT of a problem rarely exists in its manifestation. My dogs get actual real bones....from the butcher...nuckles, marrow, whatever. They also get carrot sticks, lettuce (weirdly, when I prepare a salad, they can hear me tear lettuce and they run into the kitchen because the know I'll throw them the lettuce ribs) or whatever other treat I CHOOSE to give them. Let's talk about ice cream! Mega treat...I doesn't MATTER the "value" of the treat, which is why I find the whole "trading up" thing so absurd. How do you "trade up" when the value is at its highest? You still have the "problem" of taking something away from the dog. 

I'll go as far as saying the whole "trading up" "method" ENCOURAGES resource guarding. Do dogs know when their humans are afraid of getting bitten? You betcha. I've never been afraid, and my dogs know it. Have I ever had to wrestle a bone out of their mouth? Yep...still not afraid of getting bitten. I abhor rawhide, so my dogs get real bones...but at a certain point they may whittle them down to a point where I find they will be dangerous if swallowed at that size...gotta take them away. Do my dogs WANT me to take them away? Nope. Do they growl at me when they realize I'm going to do it? Sometimes. Does that deter me from doing it? Nope. 

None of that is "training." All of it has to do with simply enforcing boundaries in hundreds of other aspects of simple daily life. Simple respect. Some dogs are more difficult than others, but it is all the same. Remaining calm. No yelling. Yelling is weakness to a dog, and I think that is where Cheetohunter went wrong. That pup is trying to be the strong force in the equation, because he is getting very weak signals. He's only five months old. He is ripe to be LED...but all he sees is humans afraid of him, and/or who terrorize him. 

What he needs is not another "method" but simple calmness and trust.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> None of that is "training." All of it has to do with simply enforcing boundaries in hundreds of other aspects of simple daily life. Simple respect.


And a lot of it is dumb luck. Not all dogs resource guard. I honestly think it's very difficult if not impossible to _create_ resource guarding in a dog who doesn't already have the propensity to do it regardless of what people do or don't do (which is why so many people can get away with stuff like taking bowls away over and over). 

Squash and Maisy have never resource guarded a day in their lives, never did anything special with them. Pip came to me as an incorrigible resource guarder (would definitely bite) and is essentially reformed. Toast displayed a little freezing behavior with high values chews when he was wee and we played a lot of two-toy trading games and treat dropping around him when he had chews and now I can easily take things out of his mouth.

I honestly think no matter what I did with Squash or Maisy, they would be the way they are. Toast is the one who probably I could have really messed up and made waaay worse with the wrong technique, but it would have been building on something already there rather than creating it whole cloth.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

PaddiB said:


> I'll go as far as saying the whole "trading up" "method" ENCOURAGES resource guarding. Do dogs know when their humans are afraid of getting bitten? You betcha. I've never been afraid, and my dogs know it. Have I ever had to wrestle a bone out of their mouth? Yep...still not afraid of getting bitten. I abhor rawhide, so my dogs get real bones...but at a certain point they may whittle them down to a point where I find they will be dangerous if swallowed at that size...gotta take them away. Do my dogs WANT me to take them away? Nope. Do they growl at me when they realize I'm going to do it? Sometimes. Does that deter me from doing it? Nope.


No, it doesn't. It treats RGing, as numerous posters have experienced, myself included. Dogs aren't that complicated.



PaddiB said:


> None of that is "training." All of it has to do with simply enforcing boundaries in hundreds of other aspects of simple daily life. *Simple respect.* Some dogs are more difficult than others, but it is all the same. Remaining calm. No yelling. Yelling is weakness to a dog, and I think that is where Cheetohunter went wrong. That pup is trying to be the strong force in the equation, because he is getting very weak signals. He's only five months old. He is ripe to be LED...but all he sees is humans afraid of him, and/or who terrorize him.
> 
> What he needs is not another "method" but simple calmness and trust.


Dogs don't respect anything. Ever. It's not a dog thing. Dogs fear, but they don't respect. It's absolutely pointless to discuss respect when discussing dogs. You may as well discuss Mars or the stock market, it's just as relevant.

Dogs also don't experience yelling as weakness. They may not be fazed by it, or they may be frightened by it, but weakness? No.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Xeph said:


> No you don't and no its not. If a kid doesn't want to give something up to another kid because it is *theirs* they shouldn't have to. Sharing is a should be a choice.
> 
> In regards to RGing...Hiraeth, you advice is ill advised and outdated. I am with everybody else.


Bribing children with "better toys" because they don't feel like sharing theirs is a bonafide way to teach them how to be a complete brat. Doing well in school (and in life, really), has a lot to do with learning how to share. How do I know this? Because I'm the only child who was *never* forced to share, who was bribed with "better toys", and who turned into a total and complete monster because of it. I *still* deal with repercussions of that, to this day. 

Sharing is not a choice, when you're a human being. Unless you want to lead a very lonely life. (In my opinion). 

Either way, we consistently tell people "don't personify your dogs, they aren't people", yet here we are, comparing sharing in children with sharing in dogs... Anyone else confused?

ETA: I also find it sort of sad that everyone is still arguing over advice given, talking about talking about (no, that's not a repeat word, we're literally discussing whether we should be discussing something in this thread) RG in the thread, et cetera, when OP is dealing with a severely FA dog and has gotten little to no advice as to how to fix it, outside of repeatedly giving treats to the dog. At this point, OP has probably given up on the thread because of the numerous circular arguments without any direct help being given to her.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Bribing children with "better toys" because they don't feel like sharing theirs is a bonafide way to teach them how to be a complete brat.


You know what's more important than worrying about your kid being a brat? Your kid having autonomy, being able to say no, and have that no be respected when it is not a matter of safety or life and death.

Sharing is and always should be a choice. There are consequences for not sharing. You can teach a child to share *for real* by leading by example, instead of taking things they value and giving them to somebody else because "they should want to."


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I was gonna say, it can be fairly traumatic for a kid to have something they value forcibly taken from them, possibly including punishment. There must be a way to teach a child empathy and encourage them to share, without using force and shame, and telling them their feelings are worthless (which is what you're doing when you force them to do anything, and that's. . .a hard thing to get past in adult life). So I disagree with that basic premise too. But now this will de-rail the thread even further .


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hiraeth said:


> ETA: I also find it sort of sad that everyone is still arguing over advice given, talking about talking about (no, that's not a repeat word, we're literally discussing whether we should be discussing something in this thread) RG in the thread, et cetera, when OP is dealing with a severely FA dog and has gotten little to no advice as to how to fix it, outside of repeatedly giving treats to the dog. At this point, OP has probably given up on the thread because of the numerous circular arguments without any direct help being given to her.


Feel free to stop arguing and help them, then.  Threads drift sometimes, and sometimes the side discussions contain useful information even if they aren't framed as "HEY OP DO THIS". *shrug*


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## savagem13 (Aug 16, 2015)

Jesus H--the OP is going to come back here, see you guys bickering back and forth endlessly, and decide to go someplace else for her his/her advice.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

savagem13 said:


> Jesus H--the OP is going to come back here, see you guys bickering back and forth endlessly, and decide to go someplace else for her his/her advice.


Ok? I'm not sure why people feel the need to be the thread police or white knight? Discussions happen and drift off topic. If you're not the don't like the way a thread is going you can just... not post or read? 

There actually is a lot of advice in the thread between the discussions going on. Again, it's not all framed as DO THIS but most of the thread is a discussion about resource guarding.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

The trade up game nipped RG in the bud for Louie. He would freeze and had growled once. I can remove anything from his possession with no concern now. Trade up does not encourage RG if it is done correctly. If it did encourage it, Louie would have kept the behavior, not lost it with how much junk I've pulled out of his mouth as a puppy.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Feel free to stop arguing and help them, then.  Threads drift sometimes, and sometimes the side discussions contain useful information even if they aren't framed as "HEY OP DO THIS". *shrug*


I've tried SO many times to redirect the arguments about my personal methods, which I never recommended directly to OP, and get it back on track towards helping out. I can literally find six separate instances of me saying "okay, I won't recommend my method again, let's try to help OP" all the way to "okay, we're really beating a dead horse here". It's become disheartening, but that's what happens when people keep showing up and commenting on something they see on page one when the thread is on page four. Just repetition and unnecessary rehashing of things that are *entirely* hashed out. 

I said in my very first post that I didn't know if I would be able to give great advice, and then I proceeded to send PMs to a few members whose training opinions I've found to be super helpful in the past to direct them here to try to get OP some help. 

As far as I've seen, good advice has been given for RG (NOT MY ADVICE). I haven't seen anyone mention what OP should do in order to work towards leashing or just petting her puppy - she said in her post that while the puppy resource guards, he also just won't let his owners near him, regardless of whether he has resources or not. Personally, I have never owned a dog who was that afraid of me, and I would be totally lost giving advice for that situation. 

The ONLY thing I can do to get the thread back on track is to repeatedly say "okay, no one likes how I deal with RG, I won't mention it again, let's just try to help OP out with the RG that has escalated to FA".

At this point, as savagem13 pointed out, it's probably fruitless, as we've reached page 5 and OP's issues outside of RG haven't even been addressed. *shrug* It might still be educational for other future forum visitors to discuss these issues? I don't know.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

FWIW, when I was a mere lurker I found discussions educational, or at least entertaining.  If the OP comes back and their reply isn't acknowledged, maybe it's a problem. But that's forum life. 

Hiraeth--sorry if I missed this in the five pages, but you've brought up sharing in humans and using it as an analogue to dogs as part of your reasoning for your method, correct? Is that part of why you prefer your method, or was that just supposed to be an analogy? 

savagem13--and thread policing isn't also part of a derail? Lol.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

CrimsonAccent said:


> FWIW, when I was a mere lurker I found discussions educational, or at least entertaining.  If the OP comes back and their reply isn't acknowledged, maybe it's a problem. But that's forum life.
> 
> Hiraeth--sorry if I missed this in the five pages, but you've brought up sharing in humans and using it as an analogue to dogs as part of your reasoning for your method, correct? Is that part of why you prefer your method, or was that just supposed to be an analogy?
> 
> savagem13--and thread policing isn't also part of a derail? Lol.


No, I have said repeatedly that sharing in humans (or any behavior in humans) does not relate to dog behavior or training, therefore attempting to relate humans sharing/guarding versus dogs sharing/guarding just serves to muddy the waters. Humans sharing food was brought up by another poster, to which I replied that I found that particular argument to be irrelevant for multiple reasons. I tried to come up with circumstances in which it could perhaps be comparable, but it was an exercise in futility on my part.

If you'd like my actual reasoning, I'll pm you, though I can't imagine anyone would find it that interesting, at this point. I'd rather not bring it up again here for fear of starting another merry-go-round-from-hell of backlash and because I'd like to not participate in derailing the thread any more than I already have.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

The reason I feel the need to ensure I address improper methods of RGing in dogs is because I've seen far too many dogs put down because people have dealt with RGing inappropriately, then the dog bites someone (maybe a child) and gets killed for it. I would prefer dogs not continue to get killed over this issue which is so easily solvable when you use the proper methods, so to me it is important that the correct information gets out there about this issue. 

It's not just a matter of "Hey you do it this way, I do it this other way, let's agree to disagree" like different methods of teaching a down or something.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> The reason I feel the need to ensure I address improper methods of RGing in dogs is because I've seen far too many dogs put down because people have dealt with RGing inappropriately, then the dog bites someone (maybe a child) and gets killed for it. I would prefer dogs not continue to get killed over this issue which is so easily solvable when you use the proper methods, so to me it is important that the correct information gets out there about this issue.
> 
> It's not just a matter of "Hey you do it this way, I do it this other way, let's agree to disagree" like different methods of teaching a down or something.


Saying that my methods are going to result in euthanasia is a bit of an overblown statement, but whatever makes you feel better. 

Most, if not all, dog training is a matter of agreeing to disagree. There are millions of dogs owners and hundreds of ways that people use to train any particular behavior. I don't agree with all of them, either, but as long as they aren't doing overt harm to the dog (in other words, as long as the methods are not physically or verbally violent), then there's not too much I can say to stop people from practicing those methods. My method works FOR ME, and has turned four dogs on the edge of euthanasia for aggressive tendencies into well-adjusted canines who can be trusted in just about any environment (they aren't dog park dogs for other reasons). However, through all of the comments, I can agree that mentioning it online, where a stranger who knows nothing about dogs may come across it and try it, is something that I won't do in the future.

I have repeatedly agreed to disagree with you about this issue. Yet here you are, still shaking the bone, refusing to let the issue die down so this thread can get back on track. Seriously, let it go - we've discussed for five pages how pretty much no one recommends my methods. That's fine - I can take that like an adult, say "okay, I won't suggest that to anyone any more to avoid this conversation in the future" and I've moved past it. YOU are the one who refuses to drop it. 

*Let me assure you, the issue has been addressed. Multiple times. By you and others. Over the last five pages. No need to go on about how you "need to ensure" anything any more. The point has been made, the message has gotten across. For god's sake, let's be adults and drop it. *


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Saying that my methods are going to result in euthanasia is a bit of an overblown statement,
> [/B]


I really wish it were. I'm not sure why you're discounting my experience of having seen this happen with many dogs first hand.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I really wish it were. I'm not sure why you're discounting my experience of having seen this happen with many dogs first hand.


Yes, I'm sure that all of the dogs you've seen euthanized were traumatized because experienced owners carefully observed body language, removed resources and then returned the resources and gave the dog a treat. That's probably the EXACT cause of their demise. Not people yelling, smacking and caging for RGing. Nope, an epidemic of just calmly observing, removing and treating for good behavior obviously causes horrendous aggression so severe that it results in thousands of dogs turning violent and being euthanized every year. 

I should probably be locked up before I kill more dogs. 

Okay, back to reality. Let's do this one more time, shall we? I can put it in list form.

1. My method works for me. 
2. It was ill-advised to mention it on an online forum where uneducated strangers may come across it and try it, I will refrain from doing so in the future.
3. We have discussed this for five pages, anyone who comes across this thread will clearly be able to see the cons of using my method, for which I am not advocating, and will be able to make an educated decision.
4. The people who come across this thread have gotten great advice about how to deal with RG, but not great advice about how to deal with FA in general, which is sad. 
5. Can we please be done now?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Yes, I'm sure that all of the dogs you've seen euthanized were traumatized because experienced owners carefully observed body language, removed resources and then returned the resources and gave the dog a treat. That's probably the EXACT cause of their demise. Not people yelling, smacking and caging for RGing. Nope, just calmly observing, removing and treating for good behavior obviously causes horrendous aggression so severe that it causes thousands of dogs to turn violent and be euthanized a year.


No, I have seen dogs euthed because people took/tried to take resources from them when they were guarding and they bit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

It would be done if you stopped responding, too. ;-) You're making as many posts chiding people as they are about what you're chiding them for.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I'm still honestly curious about what is punishable about a growl that you feel the need to take the thing they were growling over as punishment.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

BTW - as someone studying PSYCHOLOGY, behaviour is universal, and to believe otherwise is ignorant.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

sassafras said:


> It would be done if you stopped responding, too. ;-) You're making as many posts chiding people as they are about what you're chiding them for.


Actually _more_ posts. And not only that.....but paragraph upon paragraph about how everyone should just drop the subject while still arguing about said subject. Yet everyone else is immature and _obtuse_ and _mulish_.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Emmett said:


> Actually _more_ posts. And not only that.....but paragraph upon paragraph about how everyone should just drop the subject while still arguing about said subject. Yet everyone else is immature and _obtuse_ and _mulish_.


I stopped arguing about the subject pages ago. Now I'm simply responding to being kicked repeatedly while already down, after having admitted that I was wrong.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Um. Honestly, it's nice that everyone here is willing to offer their amateur opinions about this. But at the end of the day, what I think the OP really needs is a professional assessment from a veterinary behaviourist. 

I could be wrong, but to me this sounds like a very serious matter that transcends internet advice and reading recommendations. 



> He bit incredibly hard and tried to shake when he did it. Things have kind of escalated since then.





> but has bitten me seriously three times this last week alone.





> He's gone from growling to immediately biting within the last 2 weeks.





> We currently can only handle him if we are wearing my husband's hockey gloves because that is the only thing he can't bite or rip through.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Um. Honestly, it's nice that everyone here is willing to offer their amateur opinions about this. But at the end of the day, what I think the OP really needs is a professional assessment from a veterinary behaviourist.
> 
> I could be wrong, but to me this sounds like a very serious matter that transcends internet advice and reading recommendations.


Mostly everyone on here recommended that they see a behaviorist ... BUT ... it can take some time to find one, and to get seen by one, people on here were just suggesting things the OP could try to manage the situation safely until they could see a behaviorist.

And many people's opinions are hardly amateur.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I'll admit I only skimmed the responses, but as far as I could see I didn't notice anyone making the recommendation. That's why I made it. Forgive my redundancy, if there was any.

And, in the spirit of keeping pointless arguements going, I guess. I'm 99 and 44/100ths % sure we don't have any PROFESSIONAL behaviourists as members here. Which would make all of our opinions in this particular case .. you know, .. amateur.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I'll admit I only skimmed the responses, but as far as I could see I didn't notice anyone making the recommendation. That's why I made it. Forgive my redundancy, if there was any.
> 
> And, in the spirit of keeping pointless arguements going, I guess. I'm 99 and 44/100ths % sure we don't have any PROFESSIONAL behaviourists as members here. Which would make all of our opinions in this particular case .. you know, .. amateur.


There are a good many certified trainers here, and a good few (like myself) on their way to certification, so I hardly would call them "amateurs".


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> There are a good many certified trainers here, and a good few (like myself) on their way to certification, so I hardly would call them "amateurs".


Given your objective, you really need to learn the difference between a trainer and a veterinary behaviourist. It's vast, to say the least.

I stand by my earlier recommendation.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Given your objective, you really need to learn the difference between a trainer and a veterinary behaviourist. It's vast, to say the least.
> 
> I stand by my earlier recommendation.


I know there is a difference, I never said that a behaviorist shouldnt be called (nor I believe did anyone else) I just dont think its fair to call everyone on here an "amateur" which is certainly not true. Even a good trainer in the meantime could evaluate the dog and suggest ways they could manage the situation until a behaviorist could be contacted.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I just dont think its fair to call everyone on here an "amateur" which is certainly not true.


 But it is true. I'm not sure what's so difficult for you to comprehend here. 

If they're not "amateur" behaviourists, then what are they? "armchair" behaviourists, at best? They're certainly not professional according to definition. We may have professional groomers here, we may have professional dog walkers here, we may even have professional trainers here. But we clearly DON'T have any behaviourists here, except for the amateur or armchair varieties.

Even though the dog is only 5 months, it appears to have a bite history that goes significantly beyond 'normal' puppy biting. And in my opinion, what the OP would benefit most from is actual live, in-person, eyes-on evaluation from a PROFESSIONAL behaviourist. Not speculation by well-meaning people from their internet armchair.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Um. Honestly, it's nice that everyone here is willing to offer their amateur opinions about this. But at the end of the day, what I think the OP really needs is a professional assessment from a veterinary behaviourist.
> 
> I could be wrong, but to me this sounds like a very serious matter that transcends internet advice and reading recommendations.


I strongly agree with this advice ^^^. Your pup's age, the rapid escalation in his behavior, and serious nature of the situation point to needing a professional evaluation from a veterinary behaviorist. If you're in the US, the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists maintains a directory of members; many other countries likely have something similar.

As it happens, we met with a VB earlier this week for my fearful pup. It was an overwhelmingly positive experience. She knew the questions to ask to get a full understanding of his issues, was able to differentiate normal behaviors from more concerning ones, and - importantly - gave us training and management suggestions to implement immediately. Additionally, she will follow up with a detailed, written summary of the appointment and behavior management plan, and offer on-going support.

The benefit of seeing a VB is they are uniquely qualified to evaluate physical _and_ behavioral concerns, and can draw from a body of research on canine behavior and development. Her web site has a brief explanation of the types of individuals working the field of behavior and training: About Veterinary Behavior.

Hope you find some assistance soon! Good luck.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think the problem lies in the fact that there are two uses of 'amateur'.

The first is to distinguish between a professional *whatever* and everyone else who is not a professional *whatever*.

The second is more casual and usually just implies lack of experience or knowledge. Being a newbie, if you will.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> But it is true. I'm not sure what's so difficult for you to comprehend here.
> 
> If they're not "amateur" behaviourists, then what are they? "armchair" behaviourists, at best? They're certainly not professional according to definition. We may have professional groomers here, we may have professional dog walkers here, we may even have professional trainers here. But we clearly DON'T have any behaviourists here, except for the amateur or armchair varieties.
> 
> Even though the dog is only 5 months, it appears to have a bite history that goes significantly beyond 'normal' puppy biting. And in my opinion, what the OP would benefit most from is actual live, in-person, eyes-on evaluation from a PROFESSIONAL behaviourist. Not speculation by well-meaning people from their internet armchair.


Jokes on you, I am sitting at my desk, not my armchair lmao. and do you know what it takes to be a behaviorist? here is a site with a wealth of info:http://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/applied-behavior-caab-application.php 

For many, the first step to becoming a behaviorist is becoming a trainer, I am not discounting that this person NEEDS a behaviorist, nor is anyone else here, but what I have an issue with is calling someone who is a dog trainer "an amateur".


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## HVani (Jun 11, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Jokes on you, I am sitting at my desk, not my armchair lmao. and do you know what it takes to be a behaviorist? here is a site with a wealth of info:http://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/applied-behavior-caab-application.php
> 
> For many, the first step to becoming a behaviorist is becoming a trainer, I am not discounting that this person NEEDS a behaviorist, nor is anyone else here, but what I have an issue with is calling someone who is a dog trainer "an amateur".


Off topic, OMG I wish I had known about becoming a dog behaviorist when I was going through college. As it stands now to "do it right" I would need another 4 year degree, dog trainer certification with appropriate number of training hours, a master's degree then a PhD. I'm still paying for my BA! 

The frustrating thing is, my past experience does not help at all towards certification. I was a top caretaker at a Dog Daycare for 4 years where I worked with big/active dogs and adolescents, I was an assistant dog trainer for a while then I did behavior evaluations/behavior modification at the shelter for 2.5 years. I'm not a professional but I do have experience with dog behavior. 

With that said if this was a case of resource guarding I would say, yeah that's fixable here's how... But given the escalation and the dog's young age I would bring in a behaviorist. It's all pretty concerning IMO.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> but what I have an issue with is calling someone who is a dog trainer "an amateur".


 I used the term "amateur opinion". Go back and check.

And sorry, but the fact remains. If the opinion wasn't given by a professional veterinary behaviourist, then I'm afraid it only leaves one other option.

I'm out on this one, as of now. Why? because you just don't get it. Oh and good luck in your certified trainer endeavor, remember that common sense, logic, reasoning, and a command of language are a big part of the duties. You might want to brush up in those areas.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Kind of exhausting to read all this...so much back and forth to so little purpose. 

I have a resource guarder that I manage. He doesn't RG from me, but will from pretty much everyone else. That makes it easier for ME to manage his interactions from others, because I can step in and he is accepting of my involvement. The problem is the OP doesn't have that trust in place with their dog to do that. It could be that its true genetic temperament is actually showing now, or it could be that it's using its teeth as a means to get its own way, or it could be any of a myriad of reasons. I agree that impartial, professional eyes on the situation are needed.

I don't bother my dog when he eats. I may pat his rump when I first release him to eat (he has to wait first), but then I walk away and do other things. I do pass by him while he's eating and that doesn't bother him. However, my husband .. or the cat... make him uncomfortable if they get close. On the rare occasion that I have needed to relocate his bowl (for example, he scooted it in front of the stove and my husband was making dinner), instead of taking it, I use his obedience to my advantage and that keeps the situation calm and matter of fact. Requiring him to back up and sit, then I move the bowl, then releasing him again is what I do to keep his guarding to a minimum. He no longer RGs toys at the house from us or my son; that has changed as he matured and realized toys are more fun when you make a human tug or toss them.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think this thread devolved from a discussion about RG to a collection of RG activities, where the resource is 'opinions.' LOL

I am one of those amateurs, but I've been giving my opinion as fact for decades, so I'm an Expert amateur. I also have a PhD.

The OP mentioned that he/she asked her Vet, unfortunately not realizing that most Vet are good medical professionals, but may be nutritional and behavioral amateurs, b/c, as suggested, those are different fields of study... [And, unfortunately, Anyone can call themselves just a "behaviorist" ...]
I don't know if there's a difference between ethologist and Vet behaviorist, but I'd trust both over a 'behaviorist' [No one posted 'behaviorist' just to be clear]

Like the Vet, I could believe that a young pup might RG, and I am confident that with help, the OP can turn this problem around. With an older dog the problem would be much hard to fix. Unfortunately, the Vet either didn't understand, didn't explain ... or was an amateur behaviorist/training ;-)

A number of people that I respect recommend against bothering dogs with food. Fifty years ago, we had a dog that had RG issues and would also bite if someone picked up a stick, in both cases biting hard and drawing blood. From that point, we taught all other puppies not to RG, and to accept (or enjoy!) being bothered while eating. I've never adopted an adult, so haven't had to deal with deeper issues in these cases. 

All I can say is that it was entertaining ...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I used the term "amateur opinion". Go back and check.
> 
> And sorry, but the fact remains. If the opinion wasn't given by a professional veterinary behaviourist, then I'm afraid it only leaves one other option.
> 
> I'm out on this one, as of now. Why? because you just don't get it. Oh and good luck in your certified trainer endeavor, remember that common sense, logic, reasoning, and a command of language are a big part of the duties. You might want to brush up in those areas.


No, I think you are the one who just doesnt get it. 

And no thanks, I dont listen to "amateur opinions" 



> I think this thread devolved from a discussion about RG to a collection of RG activities, where the resource is 'opinions.' LOL
> 
> I am one of those amateurs, but I've been giving my opinion as fact for decades, so I'm an Expert amateur. I also have a PhD.
> 
> ...


What people also are forgetting is many of those so called "amateurs" can often recommend a good brhaviorist, in the event they can't help the dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

No, you both are choosing to ignore the fact that you're using the word to mean different things.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> No, you both are choosing to ignore the fact that you're using the word to mean different things.


I think I know full well what was meant, she was implying that everyone on here was an "amateur" which is not true, we werent offering "opinions" in fact many people recommended a behaviorist right off the bat, me included. then people suggested some things for her to try IN THE MEAN TIME while she finds a behaviorist, to manage the situation.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Okay. Again, amateur can mean just someone who is not a professional. It's like an opposite term.

Black or white. Up or down. Professional or amateur. 

Petpeeve wasn't trying to imply people on here have no knowledge of dogs, just that we are not professional behaviourists. Which, as far as I know, we are not.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Okay. Again, amateur can mean just someone who is not a professional. It's like an opposite term.
> 
> Black or white. Up or down. Professional or amateur.
> 
> Petpeeve wasn't trying to imply people on here have no knowledge of dogs, just that we are not professional behaviourists. Which, as far as I know, we are not.


Yes, but I dont think thats how Petpeeve meant it, though. They made it seem like we all valued our advice over that of a certified behaviorist, which we do NOT.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Jokes on you, I am sitting at my desk, not my armchair lmao. and do you know what it takes to be a behaviorist? here is a site with a wealth of info:http://www.animalbehaviorsociety.org/web/applied-behavior-caab-application.php
> 
> For many, the first step to becoming a behaviorist is becoming a trainer, I am not discounting that this person NEEDS a behaviorist, nor is anyone else here, but what I have an issue with is calling someone who is a dog trainer "an amateur".





OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes, but I dont think thats how Petpeeve meant it, though. They made it seem like we all valued our advice over that of a certified behaviorist, which we do NOT.


Nothing on the site you posted implies that being a dog trainer is part of the typical path to becoming a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist. Plus, a CAAB is _not_ a Veterinary Behaviorist. PP was referring specifically to a VB, not a "behaviorist" or trainer. The link I provided to our VB's page explains the difference.

And, directly from the ACVB


> Diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Behavior (DACVB) are veterinarians who are specialists in the field. These specialists have completed a residency or training program in the discipline of veterinary behavioral medicine. As part of this program they have studied topics including: sociobiology; psychology of learning; behavioral genetics; behavioral physiology; psychopharmacology; ethology; and behavioral endocrinology.
> 
> Specialists in veterinary behavioral medicine have both the medical and behavioral knowledge to evaluate cases to determine if there is a medical component. Additionally, specialists determine which medication(s), if any, would be most appropriate as part of an integrated treatment program that includes behavioral modification plans appropriate to the individual patient. Specialists in veterinary behavioral medicine have the skills and knowledge to take detailed behavioral and medical histories, weed out irrelevant information, and base the treatment plan on the pertinent behavioral and medical information. This ability to take a good history and to ascertain relevant facts is essential and is often overlooked as a necessary skill when working with behavior problems.
> 
> These facts help differentiate how our specialists are different from trainers and others that call themselves “behaviorists”. The investment spent by having an appointment with a veterinary behaviorist often outweighs the time and money spent seeking help from other people.


I believe what was meant is that as far as we know, _no one_ here is a _Veterinary Behaviorist_ - someone who has the knowledge and skills necessary to assess the situation and offer advice based on observation and knowledge of the literature in canine behavior - and that the advice of someone with that level of knowledge would be an excellent resource for the OP. I did _not_ see an implication that PP thought folks here believed their advice superior to that of a VB, only that a professional assessment would be wise.

For the record, PP's suggestion of seeing a VB was the first mention of consulting a professional I could find.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

No, but I plan to become a veterinary behaviorist, that is my ultimate goal, and luckily, we have one of the best veterinary and veterinary science colleges in the country right here in texas ... A&M . but I have to get enough money saved up first ... I just hope I have enough life left lmao.


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## cheetohunter (Sep 28, 2015)

Hi guys, sorry I've been AWOL the past few days. We've been trying to figure things out with our little Ollie. Thanks for everyone that replied to the thread (whether it was on topic or not). I just want to clarify a few things real quick. 

First, I said we got our dog from a certified breeder I didn't mean she had some Word document printed out and hanging in her kitchen. I meant that she had been doing this for a really long time. And only with Corgi's (which is what Ollie is). I know for a fact that our dog didn't come from a puppy mill because we spent a lot of time researching and meeting with breeders to make sure that we didn't get a dog from there. 

The only thing that the breeder may have had any influence on the aggression in our pup is that the litter he was from was larger than normal. In fact, she had two dogs give birth on the same day (a first for her she said). So, Ollie probably spent the first few months of his life having to be a little more aggressive toward food than he normally would've been. This is the only thing we can think of that may have started him down this path. I don't blame the breeder or anyone else for this, but I think any further arguments about puppy mills, breeders and certifications are null and void. 

Second, I am aware that by throwing him in his cage and yelling the first few times he tried to bite us was wrong and I deeply regret it because I know it's gotten us to where we are with him now. However, for the record he had never previously shown any anger or aggression towards us. I know it's cliche (and you may think incorrect), but it literally was out of the blue. We probably reinforced the behavior unknowingly, but the first time he did it for us was a seemingly normal day until then. Since day one when we got him we would randomly "trade up" his toys and food bowl for something better and always ALWAYS immediately gave it right back with a small piece of hot dog (his favorite). We didn't do it everyday and it wasn't ever a bad experience. 

The only way we found out about any sort of problem was when we took him to the vet. The vet gave him a treat and happened to brush against it while examining Ollie. Ollie went bananas and immediately snapped at him. Ever since then he's done it with my husband and I too. He's never repeated it with the vet (even when he stuck a thermometer up his butt for 3 minutes). It was only the one time with him. 

Ollie is really well behaved around others too. He ADORES it when others pet him and is even excellent around children (probably because they're closer to his size). However, he doesn't like my husband and I touching him. I previously had thought that he rolled onto his back so that we'd pet him, but after some more reading I'm realizing he does that so we don't touch him. And for the life of me I can't figure out what we did (besides the cage thing of course), but he's always sort of been like this towards us. The only thing I can think of is that Ollie was nearly 10 weeks when we picked him up from the breeder (scheduling, travel etc. was the main reason) and he somehow associates my husband and I with taking him away from everything. Which would led to him being afraid we're going to take other stuff away too. 

Maybe, I don't know. That might be a stretch. 

Anyway, for the past few days my husband and I have just been trying to be nice and playful with Ollie. We haven't really put him in any compromising situations and have avoided touching him whenever possible. He seems to be responding to it. Yesterday, I innocently walked past a ball he had on the ground (he wasn't even playing with it) and he got rigid and growled at me. I stepped back a few feet until he was calm again and then started throwing treats to him. I took a tiny step forward as he got okay with me being there and worked up to the point where I actually picked up the ball and threw it to him. It took almost 2 hours, but he was 100% normal Ollie by the time I threw the ball to him. He growled at me later that night when I went by the ball again and I did the same thing. This time it only took one or two tries before he let me pick up the ball. I'd say that that was a success and probably a good indication of how we will have to do everything else for awhile with him. And that's okay. 

We took away his food bowl completely and have started feeding him out of our hands. Maybe that's not the best way to go, but he is so much more calm and doesn't snarf down his food. I know it will be an issue working back up to having the bowl again, but I think for now it's the only way to remove some of the pressure and negative connotations he feels about it. 

We also decided to get him neutered next week. Previously, we were going to wait until he was about 6 months but we think it's time. And I am aware that neutering doesn't fix everything (or maybe not even anything), but we feel that it is the best decision for Ollie right now. You are entitled to feel the same way towards your pets. 

The only serious issue we are still having with Ollie is when we try to take his leash OFF. Getting it on is a breeze, he could care less. But when we try to get it off he is okay for about 2 or 3 seconds and then he jumps/lunges and...I'd say nips at you. It's definitely not a "I'm going to bite you and I'm going to do it hard" kind of thing. We've tried doing baby steps with that too; touching further and further down the leash giving him treats as he stays calm while we do it. If he does explode we immediately get up and turn away from him with our arms crossed and wait for him to calm down. It's been working the past few days, but today he's extra feisty and has been stuck wearing his leash for the past 3 hours because I can't get it off without repeated tantrums that just seem to escalate. 

I don't know if this is his last ditch effort to try and make us react or it's because we're touching him or what. He just randomly started doing this on Monday morning. He used to be completely fine with us putting and taking it off, but he is the biggest jerk about it now all of a sudden. I can't think of a single bad experience he's ever had with us taking it off. I'm sure he somehow thinks that the leash is "his" once it's on and he's possibly guarding that too. But the baby steps (no matter how long it takes) should still work, right? 

Anyway, I appreciate all the comments and suggestions from before. I am looking into a specialist for Ollie, but I'd like to know that we did everything we could before we go that route (and you may feel differently about that and that's okay). Not that I'm against asking for help, but money is somewhat of a concern. 

I would greatly love to hear if anyone has any suggestions about getting the leash off of him. Or at least making it a pleasant experience for him. 

Thanks.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Wasn't planning on returning to the thread, but saw that OP came back and wanted to see what she had to say. With that in mind: 

I assume the leash is attached to a collar around his neck? Not sure if it would work, but perhaps attaching it to a harness on his back would allow you to remove it without reaching for his throat? He still sounds very fearful to me, and reaching towards the throat/neck of a fearful dog will only heighten that fear. Perhaps (if you think getting a harness on him is feasible), removal from his back would allow you to mitigate this issue until he becomes more comfortable with the process?

The other thing to maybe do is to practice petting/reaching for his neck with treats in hand without the leash anywhere around. That way you could condition him to 'hand towards neck = treat'?

Or that might not help at all. Just a few ideas I had while reading your post.

About neutering - I am personally against neutering a dog before it reaches physical maturity. Early neuter causes late closure of growth plates and will therefore cause the long bones in your dog's legs to grow past the point that they naturally would (the repercussions of this are debated - some vets argue it has no negative effects while many others argue that it increases likelihood of hip dysplasia and other skeletal issues). While I'm not going to say "no, don't do that, that's a horrible idea!", I really encourage you to read up about the pros and cons of early-stage neuters. Because of the strain a Corgi's conformation puts on its skeletal system (especially spine and hips), if I owned a Corgi, I would try very hard to make sure it grew to physical maturity before I decided to alter it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

My dude also used to bite and all that when I put his leash on and the way he acted could easily have been perceived as aggressive, but it was really a puppy tantrum "dont touch me I want to play!!!!" thing, I just ignored him and took hold of his collar with both hands gently and waited for him to calm down. Sometimes puppies have these tantrums that dont make sense LOL. Not saying is what this is but it might be, can you upload a video of his behavior so we can see it and maybe further help you until you can find a behaviorist?


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

So what happens if you hold a hard to eat meat/cheese in your hand and show him the treat first, without holding the leash.
Put the treat in front of his face and while he's eating it from your hand, and distracted, you quietly and calmly unclip the leash, followed by a jackpot of treats if he can do it without becoming uncomfortable and growling.

I do like Hiraeth's suggestion about the harness, it might work better in general with controlling him. You won't be reaching for his face or his neck at all.
You could also work on desensitizing him to the sound of the leash clipping and unclipping in case that's a trigger. Giving him tasty treats and keeping him distracted while you just open and close the clasp and/or touch his collar. The more you do this he should get used to the concept.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Wasn't planning on returning to the thread, but saw that OP came back and wanted to see what she had to say. With that in mind:
> 
> I assume the leash is attached to a collar around his neck? Not sure if it would work, but perhaps attaching it to a harness on his back would allow you to remove it without reaching for his throat? He still sounds very fearful to me, and reaching towards the throat/neck of a fearful dog will only heighten that fear. Perhaps (if you think getting a harness on him is feasible), removal from his back would allow you to mitigate this issue until he becomes more comfortable with the process?
> 
> ...


I have also heard and read that the ideal age to fix a dog is btw 15 and 18 mos, after two years you have a heightened risk of some cancers and the same is true if you fix early.now I have had dogs fixed both before their first year and after their 2nd year and have had no problems, and all dogs lives long and happy and healthy lives, but that doesnt mean my experience is typical.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

A video would be helpful to see if he is reacting out of fear or true "aggression" (defense). 

I just want to say good job sticking with this guy. I've dealt with 3 fearful dogs and they've eventually come through, the most successful method has been BAT (behavioral adjustment training), but it has the dog decide how close it wants to be to its trigger (feared thing). I don't know if it would work for a dog like Ollie. 

One thing for sure is if he growls at you, DO NOT back away. He wins. He learns all he has to do is grow to get what he wants. This can definitely escalate and cause him to "up the ante" and move on to biting. 

I definitely think you should look into a behaviorist. at this point, having had the dogs I've had, I would return a dog like that to a breeder, with no guilt at all. I've had 3 project dogs in a row, trying to bring them out of their funk. It can be heartbreaking and maddening (but worth it) but still. Anyway, good luck with your guy. 

OH as far as the neutering, when I finally had my latest scaredy dog done at 19 months, it actually improved his anxiety by a LOT. I wouldn't have any qualms about neutering sooner, 6 months old even. <shrugs>


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

fourdogs said:


> One thing for sure is if he growls at you, DO NOT back away. He wins. He learns all he has to do is grow to get what he wants. This can definitely escalate and cause him to "up the ante" and move on to biting.


Um not that's completely the opposite of what will happen. If you don't listen to his signal he will learn he needs to up the display for you to retreat and will end up biting. If you continuously heed the warning then he's likely to know he needs less effort for you to make the uncomfortable thing to go away and regress with the displays. Obviously this needs to be coupled with training to decrease the reason for doing this in the first place with CC and behavior modification.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

For the short term, with the leash I would probably try distracting him with something irresistible. Like, hold a handful of chicken or a peanut butter stuffed kong in one hand, and while he's busy nomming it calmly move my hand down the leash and unclip it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

fourdogs said:


> A video would be helpful to see if he is reacting out of fear or true "aggression" (defense).
> 
> I just want to say good job sticking with this guy. I've dealt with 3 fearful dogs and they've eventually come through, the most successful method has been BAT (behavioral adjustment training), but it has the dog decide how close it wants to be to its trigger (feared thing). I don't know if it would work for a dog like Ollie.
> 
> ...


NO! the bolded text is a terrible piece of advice and a great was to get bitten ... badly.

OP I think it is worth mentioning that this puppy could just very well be defective, and might have to go back to the breeder, sure you "tossing him in the crate" would have scared him, but I dont think the esclation in behavior is solely because of that. DEFINITELY contact a behaviorist, but if they so much as BREATHE a word about dominance, alpha crap, or "being the pack leader" RUN SCREAMING from them. If you have exhausted all your options, and nothing is working, I dont personally think you are there yet, but if you come to this decision please dont feel bad about returning him.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

It sounds like y'all have done the right things to address the problems that you had written about. If a method works, especially a gentle method, and you see progress that leads to a permanent fix, then I believe it's a good method ...at least for you, the dog, and that situation.

For the leash release, it sounds like you never did collar grabbing exercises? Don't start now, but use a modification, along with the leash release suggestions, already provided. At random times during the day, start touching his collar, and reward, if he doesn't over react. When he looks forward to you touching the collar, over the course of a week or two, incrementally move up to holding the collar, gently pulling the collar, gently grabbing the collar, then quickly (emergency) grabbing the collar. Doing it slowly and by habituating him, you can train him to accept a grab, maybe even offer the collar gladly - expecting a treat. Always do this exercise with no leash ... It may help with the leash release.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Apologies for my errant advice. 

I definitely agree about returning him. This could be a long 15 years or so with a dog who just isn't quite right, a dog you can't even pet?  Very sad. Good luck with him.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> NO! the bolded text is a terrible piece of advice and a great was to get bitten ... badly.
> 
> OP I think it is worth mentioning that this puppy could just very well be defective, and might have to go back to the breeder, sure you "tossing him in the crate" would have scared him, but I dont think the esclation in behavior is solely because of that. DEFINITELY contact a behaviorist, but if they so much as BREATHE a word about dominance, alpha crap, or "being the pack leader" RUN SCREAMING from them. If you have exhausted all your options, and nothing is working, I dont personally think you are there yet, but if you come to this decision please dont feel bad about returning him.


I've been reading this thread since its started and I am glad someone finally said this. I am not a "certified" anything but I am a dog training apprentice with a professional and so far I've had one experience with a defective puppy, a golden retriever, and it was not pretty. Granted, this dog was much younger then OP's when he started displaying aggressive tendencies. The thing is, puppies are pretty forgiving, mistakes can be made and they bounce back, and I'm not sure that OP made any mistakes (even the crate thing) that truly altered this dog's view of life and his family, suddenly making them threatening to him on such a level that he is displaying overt aggression towards them.

I'm going to echo the advice to contact a veterinary behaviorist to determine if this is genetic or just behavioral, and I would also recommend getting in touch with the breeder to let them know the situation at hand and discuss rehoming options. Nobody WANTS to rehome their new puppy but genetic aggression is really something I wouldn't mess with if I had a family to think about. There are plenty of stable puppies out there.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Sure, just ditch your dog instead of working on issues. Yay :/. (Note: it may be that this home is not equipped to handle this dog. And if the breeder is decent at all, they should be willing to take this dog back if necessary. But jumping to "He's defective, just dump him, there's plenty more where he came from" is not constructive advice).

It is concerning that this started so suddenly. I think a full vet workup would be a good idea. It might be that his hormones are surging---he's a bit young but maybe. And a good behaviorist could be really helpful. If you want to try to work on it yourself, you've already gotten some good recommendations. I hope you can work everything out.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Sure, just ditch your dog instead of working on issues. Yay :/. (Note: it may be that this home is not equipped to handle this dog. And if the breeder is decent at all, they should be willing to take this dog back if necessary. But jumping to "He's defective, just dump him, there's plenty more where he came from" is not constructive advice).


Yeah just jump to the worst part of my post, don't focus on the fact that I said have a professional determine if it's a genetic problem FIRST. Safety is safety, this family has children and there have already been several bites. They can't even pet the dog. So, yeah, I stand by my statement. Not every dog should be worked with by every family. YOU might have the time, patience, PASSION and resources to spend the many hours it might take to work with this dog problems that may not even be fixable. I might as well, but not everyone does. Just being realistic here.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Sure, just ditch your dog instead of working on issues. Yay :/. (Note: it may be that this home is not equipped to handle this dog. And if the breeder is decent at all, they should be willing to take this dog back if necessary. But jumping to "He's defective, just dump him, there's plenty more where he came from" is not constructive advice).
> 
> It is concerning that this started so suddenly. I think a full vet workup would be a good idea. It might be that his hormones are surging---he's a bit young but maybe. And a good behaviorist could be really helpful. If you want to try to work on it yourself, you've already gotten some good recommendations. I hope you can work everything out.


I dont think anyone said to "dump the dog off"??? So I dont know where you are getting that from, because returning the dog to the breeder is CERTAINLY not dumping him off.

At 5 mos I dont think its surging hormones, Lincoln is almost 14 mos old and he NEVER showed any type of aggression like this. This kind of thing is likely chemical, or behavioral. If it is chemical, great, there are meds for that. If it is behavioral (like the dog is "wired" wrong, some are, no matter how good the breeder) and you cant safely manage it, then yes, there is NOTHING wrong with sending this dog back, you probably wont get yous money back, but at least you know he sill be safely managed (if the breeder is worth their salt).

But I also agree, while you are searching for a behaviorist, I would take him to the vet (if you havent already, I cant remember if you have so forgive me if you have) and have a full workup done on him, bloodwork, xrays etc to see if there is something going on.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TSTrainer said:


> Yeah just jump to the worst part of my post, don't focus on the fact that I said have a professional determine if it's a genetic problem FIRST. Safety is safety, this family has children and there have already been several bites. They can't even pet the dog. So, yeah, I stand by my statement. Not every dog should be worked with by every family. YOU might have the time, patience, PASSION and resources to spend the many hours it might take to work with this dog problems that may not even be fixable. I might as well, but not everyone does. Just being realistic here.


This person doesnt believe in getting rid of an animal for ANY REASON and if someone does, they think that person is automatically come awful terrible owner.

Lincoln was going to be a breeding dog, I bought him to breed and show; he didnt pan out. I TECHNICALLY could return him to the breeder and wait for another, or go with someone else and lose my money. But I am not, he is my boy and against the advice of several of my breeder friends, I am neutering him either this christmas (If things work out and I have my own vehicle), or next summer (when I can be back at my folks place and go to the vet both he and I know). This experience has also taught me that I am NOT CUT OUT to be a breeder, so I will be spaying and neutering all my future animals and just competing in sports.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

We are on page 7, and we just now are mentioning "he might just be wrong in the head; you should return him to the breeder if this is the case for your child's safety."

We discussed practical RG solutions, then mentioned a veterinary behaviorist, and now a thorough checkup for physical causes of aggression. I even mentioned DAP and essential oils for management.

Hardly jumping straight to dumping the dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BigLittle said:


> We are on page 7, and we just now are mentioning "he might just be wrong in the head; you should return him to the breeder if this is the case for your child's safety."
> 
> We discussed practical RG solutions, then mentioned a veterinary behaviorist, and now a thorough checkup for physical causes of aggression. I even mentioned DAP and essential oils for management.
> 
> Hardly jumping straight to dumping the dog.


I know, right? I would still like to hear willowy's explanation for that comment, just for good measure, I will quote it again:



> Sure, just ditch your dog instead of working on issues. Yay :/. (Note: it may be that this home is not equipped to handle this dog. And if the breeder is decent at all, they should be willing to take this dog back if necessary. But jumping to "He's defective, just dump him, there's plenty more where he came from" is not constructive advice).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

What do you think the breeder will do with him? I do consider it dumping the dog unless it's very clear he will be re-homed to a more suitable family (I would definitely consider returning a dog that didn't work out for breeding/show to be dumping the dog. That's just cold). But since there may be bite concerns, the breeder will probably just kill him because they'd have legal trouble if he bit someone in the new home. If the owners think he needs to be dead they should have the guts to take him to the vet themselves and hold him while he dies. Not dump him back on the breeder so he/she has to deal with it. But the way it sounds to me, the dog can be worked with. I hope they are able to do that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> What do you think the breeder will do with him? I do consider it dumping the dog unless it's very clear he will be re-homed to a more suitable family (I would definitely consider returning a dog that didn't work out for breeding/show to be dumping the dog. That's just cold). But since there may be bite concerns, the breeder will probably just kill him because they'd have legal trouble if he bit someone in the new home. If the owners think he needs to be dead they should have the guts to take him to the vet themselves and hold him while he dies. Not dump him back on the breeder so he/she has to deal with it. But the way it sounds to me, the dog can be worked with. I hope they are able to do that.


Geeze, that is so rude and full of it I dont even know where to start ... but I will give it my best shot; I will break this post down, I think that is the best way to respond to this ... I dont think I can say the word on this forum that I would use to explain your very rude, very uncalled for post. Just when I think I have heard it all you get more outlandish.

*What do you think the breeder will do with him? I do consider it dumping the dog unless it's very clear he will be re-homed to a more suitable family (I would definitely consider returning a dog that didn't work out for breeding/show to be dumping the dog.*

A lot of breeders rehome and return dogs that dont pan out to be a show or breeding dog, or else they would be one of those puppy mills or animal hoarders you also say you hate, so if someone tries to rehome the dog RESPONSIBLY through their breeder (as many breeder sale contracts stipulate they have to anyway). Often the breeder knows more dog people than the seller, and can knowledgeably rehome the dog. Returning the dog to the breeder is not a bad thing and it doesnt make you a bad owner.


*If the owners think he needs to be dead they should have the guts to take him to the vet themselves and hold him while he dies. Not dump him back on the breeder so he/she has to deal with it. But the way it sounds to me, the dog can be worked with. I hope they are able to do that.*

Wow ... I dont even have words for how rude this is, I am sorry but where do you even get off?!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> What do you think the breeder will do with him? I do consider it dumping the dog unless it's very clear he will be re-homed to a more suitable family (I would definitely consider returning a dog that didn't work out for breeding/show to be dumping the dog. That's just cold). But since there may be bite concerns, the breeder will probably just kill him because they'd have legal trouble if he bit someone in the new home. If the owners think he needs to be dead they should have the guts to take him to the vet themselves and hold him while he dies. Not dump him back on the breeder so he/she has to deal with it. But the way it sounds to me, the dog can be worked with. I hope they are able to do that.


Returning to the breeder is not dumping. THe Breeder is going to be able to better access if the dog IS a legal risk than novice owners, and their contract may very well say they can't euth without breeder permission, anyway. Would I sign that contract? No, but it's not an uncommon clause with either breeders or, more often, shelters. The owners can't send it anywhere else without those same legal concerns, even in the absence of the contract.

And I REALLY disagree that not keeping a dog that doesn't work to do what you want with it is something to shame anyone for. If I get a dog for a specific purpose, and it doesn't serve that purpose, I still need a dog who will. If I can't have two, the one who *won't work* can't stay. That's really just all there is to it. Is breeding/show a need? Well, no, not for me, but I'm not a breeder but if I got a dog for an LGD, a service dog, to herd, or even to do high level sports with and the dog wasn't going to be able to do it because of structural or temperament issues then I have ZERO issues with people not keeping the dog.

And that's not even touching the fact that Jack came to me at 5 after he was done breeding, because the BREEDER still had a program and passion to improve the breed, but couldn't keep every dog she had ever bred or shown. She loves that freaking dog - still - four years later we're in constant contact about him. He's pretty happy with his retirement, too.

Whether that's euthing "killing", rehoming, or getting a replacement for the breeder.

You aren't doing ANYONE any favors in keeping a dog you don't like, don't want, and isn't capable of being what you do want. It isn't helping the dog, either, and saying they should have the 'guts' to euth it instead of finding another option or letting the breeder take their responsibility back and reassess and decide is baloney. It's just an attempt to shame and punish people into keeping animals that are a horrible fit for them, so owner AND dog can be miserable for 15 years.

it serves NOTHING.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm sorry you think that my belief in people taking responsibility for their pets is rude. I don't really know where to go with that. I thought it was a no-brainer but I guess not. 

It's the "plenty more where that came from!" mentality that really gets to me. I understand that tragedies happen and sometimes the dog does need to be returned (assuming the breeder is responsible) but I do think people have an obligation to try to work things out.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I'm sorry you think that my belief in people taking responsibility for their pets is rude. I don't really know where to go with that. I thought it was a no-brainer but I guess not.
> 
> It's the "plenty more where that came from!" mentality that really gets to me. I understand that tragedies happen and sometime the dog does need to be returned (assuming the breeder is responsible) but I do think people have an obligation to try to work things out.


I thought that was what these people were doing? But no your post was totally uncalled for.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think people have a responsibility to try, but I don't think they have a responsibility to try for the life of a dog and never, ever, consider that the dog isn't going to work out in their home, and that they don't have the resources to keep trying safely. You take the dog to a trainer, you take a dog to a vet behaviorst, you try the best you can within the constrains of your life and reasonably assess if you, the dog, and the public are safe and can keep trying and then you make a call. Sometimes that call is you try for the dog by virtue of sending it to someone with better resources - like the breeder or rescue or another home - and sometimes you make the call to end the dog's life. 

Not a single bit of that means 'you can't try again and get a dog who is stable'. Or that giving up on a broken dog - and they exist - and getting one who is whole means you did something shameful.

Making a call not to spend 15 years with a dog that's miserable, while making yourself miserable, isn't irresponsible. In fact, I'd call keeping a dog when you don't have the resources to work with them and make sure humans (family and not), other animals (in the household or not) are truly safe is the HEIGHT of irresponsibility. Like unbelievably, incredibly, horrifically, irresponsible. And if keeping the humans safe means a radically restricted and miserable life for the dog (this will vary by dog) that trying is pretty freaking unfair to the DOG too.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

CptJack said:


> I think people have a responsibility to try, but I don't think they have a responsibility to try for the life of a dog and never, ever, consider that the dog isn't going to work out in their home, and that they don't have the resources to keep trying safely. You take the dog to a trainer, you take a dog to a vet behaviorst, you try the best you can within the constrains of your life and reasonably assess if you, the dog, and the public are safe and can keep trying and then you make a call. Sometimes that call is you try for the dog by virtue of sending it to someone with better resources - like the breeder or rescue or another home - and sometimes you make the call to end the dog's life.
> 
> Not a single bit of that means 'you can't try again and get a dog who is stable'. Or that giving up on a broken dog - and they exist - and getting one who is whole means you did something shameful.
> 
> Making a call not to spend 15 years with a dog that's miserable, while making yourself miserable, isn't irresponsible. In fact, I'd call keeping a dog when you don't have the resources to work with them and make sure humans (family and not), other animals (in the household or not) are truly safe is the HEIGHT of irresponsibility. Like unbelievably, incredibly, horrifically, irresponsible. And if keeping the humans safe means a radically restricted and miserable life for the dog (this will vary by dog) that trying is pretty freaking unfair to the DOG too.


This is exactly how I feel. All of it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I think people have a responsibility to try, but I don't think they have a responsibility to try for the life of a dog and never, ever, consider that the dog isn't going to work out in their home, and that they don't have the resources to keep trying safely. You take the dog to a trainer, you take a dog to a vet behaviorst, you try the best you can within the constrains of your life and reasonably assess if you, the dog, and the public are safe and can keep trying and then you make a call. Sometimes that call is you try for the dog by virtue of sending it to someone with better resources - like the breeder or rescue or another home - and sometimes you make the call to end the dog's life.
> 
> Not a single bit of that means 'you can't try again and get a dog who is stable'. Or that giving up on a broken dog - and they exist - and getting one who is whole means you did something shameful.
> 
> Making a call not to spend 15 years with a dog that's miserable, while making yourself miserable, isn't irresponsible. In fact, I'd call keeping a dog when you don't have the resources to work with them and make sure humans (family and not), other animals (in the household or not) are truly safe is the HEIGHT of irresponsibility. Like unbelievably, incredibly, horrifically, irresponsible. And if keeping the humans safe means a radically restricted and miserable life for the dog (this will vary by dog) that trying is pretty freaking unfair to the DOG too.


Agreed, to me it really sounds like the OP wants to do what is best for the dog and I truly believe they will, but since they have kids, and arent professionals, or experienced in these kinds of things. But to call these people "cruel" or failures because they made a decision AFTER trying everything they could. If the vet behaviorist doesnt deem this dog safe to be around kids or other animals, then they have some (very tough) decisions to make. but the first I believe should be contacting the breeder ... because if I was this dog's breeder, whether they were making the right decision or not, I would be PISSED if they didnt at least tell me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The breeder needs to know what is going on. That's not even optional. Whether the dog goes back to the breeder, the breeder wants the dog back, etc. is a different matter, but they are:
A-) A good source of support and information.
And 
B-) REALLY ERALLY NEED TO KNOW WHAT THAT BREEDING PRODUCED.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> The breeder needs to know what is going on. That's not even optional. Whether the dog goes back to the breeder, the breeder wants the dog back, etc. is a different matter, but they are:
> A-) A good source of support and information.
> And
> B-) REALLY REALLY NEED TO KNOW WHAT THAT BREEDING PRODUCED.


definitely ... if they are worth their ssalt, that is, I dont think the OP has said very much about the breeder.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OP has contacted the breeder and hasn't heard back as of the start of the thread.

It's a 5 month old corgi who has been punished for RG by grabbing and tossing in a crate. It's possible this dog has a screw loose, yea, but it's very possible he's just a sharp adolescent who has had some experiences to unlearn. For me personally it would be too soon to think about sending him back. Corgis have a long memory and can be a bit unforgiving IME.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Specific to this thread, I agree and I really do apologize. I waltzed off on a tangent responding to other things. 

That said, depending on what's going on in the home it may NOT be a situation they can deal with safely. Probably, they can and it seems that they're trying to. i wouldn't consider this situation a particularly big deal, but I really don't know all the factors in play. I guess the good news there is that if the dog IS returned to the breeder, there's nothing going on that would make rehoming a liability or serious problem. Conversely, I would probably NOT go with another puppy. RG stuff is fairly common, and if you don't have resources to work through assorted issues of about that level, you're better off knowing what you've got, rather than having it crop up as a puppy matures.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> *OP has contacted the breeder and hasn't heard back as of the start of the thread.*
> 
> It's a 5 month old corgi who has been punished for RG by grabbing and tossing in a crate. It's possible this dog has a screw loose, yea, but it's very possible he's just a sharp adolescent who has had some experiences to unlearn. For me personally it would be too soon to think about sending him back. Corgis have a long memory and can be a bit unforgiving IME.


Ahhh that sucks,  maybe they are just busy? though that is an awful long time to be without contact, I would keep trying until I got an answer.

Though likely that is what this is, a sharp adolescent that feels "betrayed" so to speak by the people he thought he could trust.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That is why it's so hard to give advice on these kinds of situations. You can get an idea of what you THINK is happening but without being able to SEE it, everyone is guessing. I agree with petpeeve that a behaviorist or at the least a trainer to see the dog in person would be very helpful.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Willowy said:


> I'm sorry you think that my belief in people taking responsibility for their pets is rude. I don't really know where to go with that. I thought it was a no-brainer but I guess not.
> 
> It's the "plenty more where that came from!" mentality that really gets to me. I understand that tragedies happen and sometimes the dog does need to be returned (assuming the breeder is responsible) but I do think people have an obligation to try to work things out.


Just had to say - responsibility comes in many forms. Like, a ridiculous number of forms, when it comes to dogs. For instance, I could sit here and say that if you aren't willing to dump $10K into a dog that has cancer in order to try to save it's life, you're an irresponsible dog owner and shouldn't have any. But, of course, that's simply not the case. In fact, for many people on this forum, dumping $10K into a dog who has cancer would be irresponsible, because they have other financial obligations to think about before they think about their dog. 

The *exact* same thing can be said for OP's situation. OP's responsibility is to her family, and if her puppy continues to fly off of the rails at every turn and presents a danger to her children, it's absolutely responsible of her, as far as her family is concerned, to return the dog to the breeder. Now, in my case, since I don't have a family, if I had a puppy like that, I think it would be irresponsible to give up without making attempts to correct the behavior. 

Dog owners, as a group, all have a slightly different set of responsibilities, and we all have to work with the resources at our disposal, and some of us have more resources (knowledge, finances, time to spend training, etc), than others. That doesn't make the others any LESS responsible. It means everyone should be doing their best with what they have to work with. 

It sounds like OP is doing the best she can and is asking for help. To shame her and others for suggesting that if she doesn't have the resources and bandwidth to handle the problem, she could re-home to someone who does, is the absolute definition of irresponsibility.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Agreed, I don't fault the OP if they come to the conclusion that this puppy is too much for them. They have kids to think about. It would be easy for me to sit here as someone with no kids and no plans to have any and say how irresponsible and horrible of an owner they are, BUT in my cass, I have other DOGS to consider, so I can kind of see their point of view when you have other beings that you have to think about, as well as the safety of the general public. 

So yeah, saying this person is "irresponsible " or "just giving up" or "cruel" IMO is seriously out of line.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

cheetohunter, so glad you've come back and clarified some things. First of all, I've tried and tried, but I can't seem to isolate certain quotes in the manner this forum demands, so I'll again, ask for help to do this. I thought I had it figured out with small posts, but yours was long and I can't figure out how to isolate..But right now, I want to try to help you, so I'm going to have to go "old school" with some of your postings. 

<< The only way we found out about any sort of problem was when we took him to the vet. The vet gave him a treat and happened to brush against it while examining Ollie. Ollie went bananas and immediately snapped at him. Ever since then he's done it with my husband and I too. He's never repeated it with the vet (even when he stuck a thermometer up his butt for 3 minutes). It was only the one time with him. >>

This revelation, along with your saying he is GREAT with other people and especially children, leads me to believe he is not somehow "defective." While you were astute enough to realize his propensity for "brattiness" began when the vet "encroached" on "his" treat....yet, while he has figured out he can do that little "game" with you, you said he's never again done it with his vet. Personally, that says a LOT. It tells me your vet took Ollie's little tirade as not something to fear, and either ignored it, or gave a subtle correction which told the pup I am going to continue to do what I need to do. It sounds like you and your husband were more disturbed by this behavior than the vet was. And your smart pup realized this. Why do you think your vet has never again had a problem with him? Please...think about that...and have you actually asked this vet about why you are having issues and he doesn't?

I'm very glad you are hand feeding him...you said yourself it is working. He is calmer...but I think you might be missing the point, thus the power of doing that, because right before you told us your are hand-feeding him you give us a blow-by-blow of this incident:

<<Anyway, for the past few days my husband and I have just been trying to be nice and playful with Ollie. We haven't really put him in any compromising situations and have avoided touching him whenever possible. He seems to be responding to it. Yesterday, I innocently walked past a ball he had on the ground (he wasn't even playing with it) and he got rigid and growled at me. I stepped back a few feet until he was calm again and then started throwing treats to him. I took a tiny step forward as he got okay with me being there and worked up to the point where I actually picked up the ball and threw it to him. It took almost 2 hours, but he was 100% normal Ollie by the time I threw the ball to him. He growled at me later that night when I went by the ball again and I did the same thing. This time it only took one or two tries before he let me pick up the ball. I'd say that that was a success and probably a good indication of how we will have to do everything else for awhile with him. And that's okay. >>

I'm sorry, but I am COMPLETELY flabbergasted by the above scenario. If you thought he was truly growling at your for simply walking past a ball (that YOU think was obviously "his") I would have TOTALLY picked up that ball and continued walking away. What do you think a five month old corgi would have done if you had done that? You can't answer that because you GAVE power to a five month old PUPPY and spent 2 hours negotiating with him. You think it was a success because later on because it only took ONE hour of negotiation? Do you REMEMBER that Ollie never challenged his vet again even though he had to stick a thermometer up his butt?

<<The only serious issue we are still having with Ollie is when we try to take his leash OFF. Getting it on is a breeze, he could care less. But when we try to get it off he is okay for about 2 or 3 seconds and then he jumps/lunges and...I'd say nips at you. It's definitely not a "I'm going to bite you and I'm going to do it hard" kind of thing. We've tried doing baby steps with that too; touching further and further down the leash giving him treats as he stays calm while we do it. If he does explode we immediately get up and turn away from him with our arms crossed and wait for him to calm down. It's been working the past few days, but today he's extra feisty and has been stuck wearing his leash for the past 3 hours because I can't get it off without repeated tantrums that just seem to escalate. >>

Getting his leash off is not your most serious issue. The fact you are AFRAID of him is your most serious issue. The fact that you choose to "negotiate" with him when he turns into a brat is your most serious issue. You said yourself your vet can stick something up his butt....and he's fine. Your dog RESPECTS your vet. He doesn't respect you because in your words you step away from him when he growls and NEGOTIATE. These days I hate to bring up breeds, because dogs are dogs, and people need to understand dogs in general, but corgi's are herding breed...they DEMAND a certain order of things. They WILL take charge if you don't. 

Unfortunately, it sounds like you are employing "methods" instead of truly understanding what is important.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

I just have to say....before cheetahunter chimed back with some additional info....about the course of this thread regarding "certified" this or that, whether it is a behaviorist or a trainer. I know many sides of this issue. I have experience with people with a plethora of alphabet soup behind their name and purporting to understand daily life with dogs. 

Do people even realize that that there are people who have "oh so wonderful" alphabets behind their names regarding dog behavior who have never actually owned dogs? Do they realize that there are "on-line" schools out there that will give "titles" to people as a dog trainer who have never actually TRAINED a dog? The word "certified" means NOTHING to me. When I finally met a neighbor after 2 years of living where I do now...whose back yard butts against mine....I noticed they always had a LOT of dogs...as well as goats and chickens and a bunch of other animals. Found out this woman did have a good heart, took in a lot of dogs, but didn't know crap. Her family was in trouble financially, so she thought she could make extra money by being a "trainer." So she found an online course and over the months declared she "passed" all the tests, and suddenly this woman, who has never actually ever trained a dog, is now "certified" as a dog trainer. 

Now..me? I'm not a "certified" dog trainer. But I possess CD's, CDXs, and UD's and tracking titles, and agility titles, and my dogs are known for being allowed to roam around parties and not scarfing down goodies from tables. So when all of you good people are encouraging people to contact "certified" dog people...their experience may be as thin as the paper their "title" is printed on.

And the "Behaviorist" moniker? Had dealings with them as well. I know people who have spent their LIFE garnering in college and universities a plethora alphabets to put after their name who use those letters to fool people that #1 they are ethical and #2 that they have actually EXPERIENCED what their education fools people into believing.

I know PERSONALLY people who have so many titles behind their name, so many "academic" achievements, that "ordinary" people believe them. They've even been featured on TV programs!!!! And yet...I know, because I happened to, at the time, be breeding the same dogs they were, KNOW that with all of their "academic" acumen, they failed in ethics. They were HAPPY breed dogs that failed health screenings, they were HAPPY to place deficient dogs in homes they KNEW would breed deficient dogs, because, BY GOSH, look at the alphabets behind my name!!!

Look, instead of, if any of you can't handle the heat of your own opinions...DON'T simply send these people to "certified" this or that. How we handle difficult dogs is not about a METHOD...it is about understanding DOGS. If you hitch your wagon to a "method" that will render you incapable of believing or understanding anything else. 

Bottom line...dogs are actually pretty easy...if you are spending 2 hours negotiating with a dog, that says more about the human than it does about the dog. 

Cheetahunter....I hope you hear this....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

. . .Sorry to say, I still don't know what you're trying to say, PaddiB. It would be nice if you talked about what TO look for in a dog trainer/behaviorist (instead of ranting about what not to look for), or talking directly about "what's truly important" instead of making vague implications about it. I hope Cheetohunter finds it more clear than I do.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> I just have to say....before cheetahunter chimed back with some additional info....about the course of this thread regarding "certified" this or that, whether it is a behaviorist or a trainer. I know many sides of this issue. I have experience with people with a plethora of alphabet soup behind their name and purporting to understand daily life with dogs.
> 
> Do people even realize that that there are people who have "oh so wonderful" alphabets behind their names regarding dog behavior who have never actually owned dogs? Do they realize that there are "on-line" schools out there that will give "titles" to people as a dog trainer who have never actually TRAINED a dog? The word "certified" means NOTHING to me. When I finally met a neighbor after 2 years of living where I do now...whose back yard butts against mine....I noticed they always had a LOT of dogs...as well as goats and chickens and a bunch of other animals. Found out this woman did have a good heart, took in a lot of dogs, but didn't know crap. Her family was in trouble financially, so she thought she could make extra money by being a "trainer." So she found an online course and over the months declared she "passed" all the tests, and suddenly this woman, who has never actually ever trained a dog, is now "certified" as a dog trainer.
> 
> ...


Hey veterinary behaviorist is a lot different than a certified dog trainer, just saying. It takes years of not online school but actual real college to become a certified veterinary behaviorist you need a masters or a doctorate in applied animal behavior science and that can mean four to six years of school, hardly a simple online course. 

The problem is many training establishments are requiring people to be certified through some kind of training program before they can work there, that is why so many people are getting certified, I myself am taking one of those horrible online courses you rant about and becoming certified but I am hardly a novice and dogs, I myself have shown and titled dogs and heaven owning dogs for almost my whole life.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I am becoming e a trainer through experience and being able to provide good references over time. I'm also in an apprenticeship and hope to get a part time training job at a local place soon. It entirely depends on dedication and knowledge. I can't afford those online programs, so I'm going a different route. OwnedbyACDs will probably be an excellent trainer by taking courses and applying the knowledge she's already learned, and I will be an excellent trainer through learning hands on from people. I don't have any titled dogs yet because I haven't owned a dog of my own in years because of housing, but I will soon. Trainers come in all colors, choosing one based on their knowledge and history with past clients is key no matter how they got to where they are. 

An actual veterinary behaviorist who has gone to vet school is entirely different. But no, there's no official certification for dog TRAINERS.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Taking away the ball is a METHOD, too.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TSTrainer said:


> I am becoming e a trainer through experience and being able to provide good references over time. I'm also in an apprenticeship and hope to get a part time training job at a local place soon. It entirely depends on dedication and knowledge. I can't afford those online programs, so I'm going a different route. OwnedbyACDs will probably be an excellent trainer by taking courses and applying the knowledge she's already learned, and I will be an excellent trainer through learning hands on from people. I don't have any titled dogs yet because I haven't owned a dog of my own in years because of housing, but I will soon. Trainers come in all colors, choosing one based on their knowledge and history with past clients is key no matter how they got to where they are.
> 
> An actual veterinary behaviorist who has gone to vet school is entirely different. But no, there's no official certification for dog TRAINERS.


I agree there is a very big difference between certification and BOARD certification. I dont think that PaddiB realizes just how much schooling it takes to become a certified vet behaviorist. I for one commend those people for going the distance, it takes dedication to do that.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> I would have TOTALLY picked up that ball and continued walking away.


Too little too late.
I wouldn't leave the ball laying around at the dog's disposal, in the first place. Hard to RG something that isn't there.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Too little too late.
> I wouldn't leave the ball laying around at the dog's disposal, in the first place. Hard to RG something that isn't there.


But it is a 5 month old puppy ... puppies have to have something to chew on, then what?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

"Have to" ??? 

No. Especially not when there are behavior issues involved.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> "Have to" ???
> 
> No. Especially not when there are behavior issues involved.


What then, prey tell is he supposed to chew on? because he is going to chew, and if it is something inappropriate and dangerous and he starts guarding that, then the owners will have a real problem. I would almost rather have him guard something SAFE, something that if you cant get it away from him, then its ok, it wont hurt him. 

If it were me I would do the opposite; I would pick up ALL inappropriate items and ONLY leave appropriate ones down.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> Yesterday, I innocently walked past a ball he had on the ground (he wasn't even playing with it)


Apparently you missed that part.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

The puppy must have items that are lower value to him. Those are the items he should have to chew on/play with while the RG is being worked on.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> The puppy must have items that are lower value to him. Those are the items he should have to chew on/play with while the RG is being worked on.
> 
> Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


I think she says that he RG's everything, even if hs isnt playing with it. I had a dog like that, but she did it to other dogs, not people.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I think she says that he RG's everything, even if hs isnt playing with it. I had a dog like that, but she did it to other dogs, not people.


Maybe OP can clarify. I don't recall reading that "everything" was a problem. And if that is the case, your solution to leave appropriate chew toys, regardless of value to dog, with the puppy isn't very helpful.

Bottom line: OP needs professional help.

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Willowy said:


> . . .Sorry to say, I still don't know what you're trying to say, PaddiB. It would be nice if you talked about what TO look for in a dog trainer/behaviorist (instead of ranting about what not to look for), or talking directly about "what's truly important" instead of making vague implications about it. I hope Cheetohunter finds it more clear than I do.


Sorry, Willowy...didn't really think I was being that vague. People can "buy" certifications without ever actually done any real training. My point was, and is, simply be careful about pieces of paper. As to what to look for? Look at the dogs. How do they act NOT under a command. Well-behaved doesn't always mean training. In other words, a dog doesn't need to know how to "sit" to take food gently, and it shouldn't take two hours with a 5 month old puppy to get it NOT to growl when someone "by happenstance" walks by a toy. I think a dog is quicker to "re-boot" his way of thinking a lot faster than humans give them credit.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> Sorry, Willowy...didn't really think I was being that vague. People can "buy" certifications without ever actually done any real training. My point was, and is, simply be careful about pieces of paper. As to what to look for? Look at the dogs. How do they act NOT under a command. Well-behaved doesn't always mean training. In other words, a dog doesn't need to know how to "sit" to take food gently, and it shouldn't take two hours with a 5 month old puppy to get it NOT to growl when someone "by happenstance" walks by a toy. I think a dog is quicker to "re-boot" his way of thinking a lot faster than humans give them credit.


You know most of those programs have an externship, right? where you have to PROVE what you have learned?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Eh. Those internships are not all that great all the time. I've had to be in class with a few interns and some were ok but inexperienced. Others were AWFUL. Absolutely terrible. My worst dog trainer experience ever though maybe not anymore after having been around a particular dog training chain at some events... but as far as classes I actually took goes? Awful. So much lack of dog knowledge.

I do think PaddiB has a point. Anyone can take dog training classes or call themselves a dog trainer. So be careful out there. 

I still think a GOOD trainer needs to see this dog in person vs internet speculating about what's going on.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

sassafras said:


> Taking away the ball is a METHOD, too.


No it is not. No really...not when you think about 10 things you can do to claim that ball, not just taking it away. We aren't talking about an adult dog, or a rescue, or a dog where history is unclear. We are talking about a five month old corgi who was obtained at 2 months. Cheetohunter and the husband are afraid of this puppy. They are afraid to touch this puppy. They tell us NOBODY ELSE is afraid....the puppy loves contact by other people and children, etc. This leads me to believe this puppy doesn't have some genetic propensity for aggression (which is actually rare). What I gain from what they wrote is this is a super-smart pup with dominance tendencies and is having a BALL (no pun intended) developing a dominant relationship over his owners. I think the pup is HAPPY to spend two hours negotiating with them because that puppy is ultimately getting REWARDED for guarding something. 

Take the ball away...put your foot over the ball, sit down and pick up the ball...whatever. That ball is the HUMAN's ball, not the puppy's ball. This puppy is learning that he can use his voice (his growl), or show his teeth, or whatever little brattiness he thinks up to control his humans. I think Cheetohunter needs to relax and look calmly at that puppy while taking possession. They need to stop being afraid because if they can't get over the fear when this puppy is only five months old, it will only get worse, when his bite WILL become worse than his bark as an adult. Most herding purebreds, especially those that are ACTIVE herders, such as corgis, are dominant oriented, because they need to be in order to control sheep. People think because corgi's are small and cute that they are nice and compliant. Such herding breeds are popular because when properly handled early on, there is the control factor in between dog and sheep, and that control is the human. 

So think of the ball as the sheep. Cheetohunter, you've already said that hand-feeding (as I suggested as a possible intervention) has worked and makes him calmer...I think it made him calmer because he realized YOU are in charge of his food...but he still thinks he can hood-wink you in other areas...so manage is toys, the same as you do his food...YOU are in charge of his toys, not him. You are in charge of everything. Take him for a walk right before his normal meal time. By the time he gets home, he will want his meal. So he DOESN'T want you to touch him to take off his leash? Fine. Stand there calmly with him...DON'T negotiate with him...let him have a tantrum, or whatever he is going to do....and wait...even if it takes 10-20 tries to reach down and unclip him... if objects, turn on the news, or tv or whatever, but wait him out, but DON'T reward him. Once he allows you to unclip him, don't even acknowledge it. I'd run some sink water in the kitchen, perhaps start your own dinner, and in the midst of that, prepare his own food and for NOW, still hand feed him...DON'T talk to him at all...you said you are "AFRAID" of when you quit hand feeding him...thus that whole mind-set is the root of your problems. You are afraid. He knows you are afraid. 

He is a 5 five month old puppy. Better to get over your fear of him now then let it fester into adulthood. Once he realizes he no longer has control over everything else, you should have no fear by suspending the hand-feeding. You have to believe that.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I definitely agree that ANYONE can call themselves a trainer, which is why I really believe that having good references and ratings (if you are a business) is a big indicator of someone's skill when evaluating trainers to hire. Someone can read read dozens, if not hundreds of books about dog training and behavior, but that doesn't mean they can actually teach a dog to walk on a leash. 

I'm not going to have a piece of paper, except my resume, that will tell people I am a dog trainer. I will, however, be able to provide references and eventually will have dogs that I've titled as a testament to my skill. It may not be good enough for those who are looking for a "certified" trainer, but hopefully my history will prove that I am good at what I do.

Edit: there is an exception to the certification thing, where a trainer can become an CGC evaluator. This requires proof that you've been a trainer for at least two years, have worked with a variety of breeds and sizes, and you have to apply with the AKC. If you're approved you take a test. If you pass you get a certificate that you have to renew every two years. Just in case anyone was curious.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> No it is not. No really...not when you think about 10 things you can do to claim that ball, not just taking it away.


Claiming the ball is a METHOD, too.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> Too little too late.
> I wouldn't leave the ball laying around at the dog's disposal, in the first place. Hard to RG something that isn't there.


I'm rather surprised at the above statement. Too little too late???? This is the PERFECT time to teach a dog that ANY resource is the human's resource, NOT for something that needs to be "guarded." Look, I've already stated that I hate the "label" of "resource guarding." I hate the whole concept of "trading up" train of thought of fixing it.....to me it is all wrong, wrong, wrong. Sorry...but how do you teach a puppy NOT to guard something if you never give him anything??? 

There IS no method...people are so used to CLINGING to methods that they forget how to read dog. I've raised my share of litters of powerful breeds, and of devious type breeds. In any given litter, you have PUNKS who think EVERYTHING is theirs....and you have quieter, more subdued dogs who acquiesce. Do you treat them all the same? Do you utilize a "method." No...you DEAL with these dogs as individuals. 

Good breeders who aren't inundated with several litters at a time, can actually evaluate individual puppies and understand individual puppies, and WORK with individual puppies and the know DAMN WELL every little temperamental nuance with every single puppy before they go to their homes....um....and that is ALSO why good breeders would never send a truly dominant puppy into a home with scared people.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I think you're a little bit misguided. Are you saying you believe that the right dog in the right family doesn't need training? There isn't just ONE method to address resource guarding, there are several and different dogs need different things. And most people here are in agreement that in this case trading up is the most universal method until a vet behaviorist can evaluate the dog and come up with a DIFFERENT method to deal with the situation at hand. I don't know where you're getting the idea that there is no method to deal with resource guarding.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

A method is just a way of doing something. Any way you do something is a method. 

Huh. I guess some things are philosophical differences. I don't want to own everything, or have my dogs think I own everything. I'm not nearly control-freaky enough for that. I want my dogs to have some autonomy and know that some things are theirs. I just don't want them to be tense/stressed thinking I might take it. I want them to be able to relax and know that I won't take it without a good reason. I think that would require a totally different. . .method  than the "I own everything" mentality.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> I'm rather surprised at the above statement. Too little too late???? This is the PERFECT time to teach a dog that ANY resource is the human's resource, NOT for something that needs to be "guarded." Look, I've already stated that I hate the "label" of "resource guarding." I hate the whole concept of "trading up" train of thought of fixing it.....to me it is all wrong, wrong, wrong. Sorry...but how do you teach a puppy NOT to guard something if you never give him anything???
> 
> There IS no method...people are so used to CLINGING to methods that they forget how to read dog. I've raised my share of litters of powerful breeds, and of devious type breeds. In any given litter, you have PUNKS who think EVERYTHING is theirs....and you have quieter, more subdued dogs who acquiesce. Do you treat them all the same? Do you utilize a "method." No...you DEAL with these dogs as individuals.
> 
> Good breeders who aren't inundated with several litters at a time, can actually evaluate individual puppies and understand individual puppies, and WORK with individual puppies and the know DAMN WELL every little temperamental nuance with every single puppy before they go to their homes....um....and that is ALSO why good breeders would never send a truly dominant puppy into a home with scared people.


You know that resource guarding is a fear issue, and not a dominant issue, right? Truly dominant dogs don't guard their stuff because they know they don't have to, they're confident. I have known only one truly dominant dog in my lifetime, all the others have been in the common end of the spectrum when it comes to their personalities.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> What then, prey tell is he supposed to chew on? because he is going to chew, and if it is something inappropriate and dangerous and he starts guarding that, then the owners will have a real problem. I would almost rather have him guard something SAFE, something that if you cant get it away from him, then its ok, it wont hurt him.
> 
> If it were me I would do the opposite; I would pick up ALL inappropriate items and ONLY leave appropriate ones down.


OwnedbyACD's....I think you and others are missing the point.....I believe you are still talking about puppies, right? My frustration, and I think others are....you have to FIX the problem...not simply ACCEPT it. Look, maybe I don't get it....does everybody on this forum thinks it is simply NORMAL for a PUPPY to guard something and the humans not to take action so that later on we can label the adult dog as a "resource guarder?" 

In your words, you seem to have an issue with safety....it is okay for a dog to resource guard something YOU deem safe, as opposed to what you deem unsafe. So, for you...it is easier just to just take away toys or treats you deem as a safety hazard, and it is okay to allow a puppy to resource guard 'safe' stuff. 

Well, guess what...puppies don't know what is safe and what is unsafe. They could care less. The issue is how PEOPLE deal with what the puppy is DOING. At 6,7,8 weeks I literally throw a pandora's box full of toys at my puppies...tugs, squeakies, rawhide, hard rubber, rope bones....whatever....as they get older, and stronger, some of those toys I will deem unsafe, and whether nearby a pup, or right out of it's mouth, I will take toys away. I give and take away at MY whim...not at any sort of protestation my puppies may announce. 

You seem to think that just because any particular toy or treat is "safe" that it is OKAY for that dog to "guard" that toy or treat. Well, congratulations...you have just, I guess, CREATED a resource guarder. They aren't born, they are created, and now I know why....

Here is MY version of the human/dog relationship...my dogs get the TOP NOTCH high value treats any dog could want....real, meaty, butcher bones. Are they dangerous? They CAN be if I allow them to get too small...and my dogs can swallow too big of a bone to obstruct them...so I have ALWAYS...from puppyhood on...with whatever toy or treat from puppyhood on....taken away stuff from my dogs and yes they might growl, and yes they might object, but I can stick my hand/fingers in their mouths and literally wrench something away from them because I am not afraid I will get bitten, because I have NEVER negotiated with them, because they simply TRUST me that I will do them no harm. I respect them as dogs. I respect growling in SOME cases, in other cases, I deem it inappropriate...My dogs understand the difference. And it is not about a method, it is about how they view ME. 

How do you "trade up" with something the dog values at its highest? You don't, because when do you KNOW where the threshold is? This MIGHT be a decent "method" to employ in an emergency situation with an adult dog in a rescue situation...but CLEARLY, for me, this is WRONG with a five month puppy where the owners have had possession of this puppy for more than half it's life. In the situation, in THIS thread, with the five month old corgi...there is NO reason to allow this puppy to take control of ANY situation. Fear is disabling the owners.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

For high value items I don't trade up since there is nothing to trade up to, I practice taking it away and then giving it right back or exchanging for something the dog deems of equal value, etc. I myself have never had a resource guarder but I do believe that some breeds and types of dog personalities are more predisposed to resource guarding than others no matter how much proofing the owner does against it.

For everything else I exchange for a treat, I also am very careful not to give them anything I will have to take away right away. I try to be respectful to my dogs, I try to treat them like I would want to be treated, and I understand how I would feel if someone was taking my things away, putting their hands in my food, so why would I do it to my dogs? 

Anyway that's the best way I can respond becsuse I have problems deciphering your posts lol.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> OwnedbyACD's....I think you and others are missing the point.....I believe you are still talking about puppies, right? My frustration, and I think others are....you have to FIX the problem...not simply ACCEPT it. Look, maybe I don't get it....does everybody on this forum thinks it is simply NORMAL for a PUPPY to guard something and the humans not to take action so that later on we can label the adult dog as a "resource guarder?"


I don't think you understand the methods people are suggesting if you think they're not an attempt to fix resource guarding. I fixed my resource guarder using these methods. Not because I'm afraid of him but because they work and are kinder than asserting some kind of dominion over every object in my house.



> How do you "trade up" with something the dog values at its highest? You don't, because when do you KNOW where the threshold is? This MIGHT be a decent "method" to employ in an emergency situation with an adult dog in a rescue situation...but CLEARLY, for me, this is WRONG with a five month puppy where the owners have had possession of this puppy for more than half it's life. In the situation, in THIS thread, with the five month old corgi...there is NO reason to allow this puppy to take control of ANY situation. Fear is disabling the owners.


Trading up is NOT something you do in the moment to get something away from the dog right now (except in the case of an emergency). Done correctly, it is a series of thoughtfully designed training sessions to teach a dog that s/he doesn't have to guard his/her stuff because you're not going to take it away willy nilly.


I think you really, really have a weird idea of what people are advocating. People aren't saying "Yea, just let him guard as much as he wants and when you want something he has trade him for it!!" NO. Just no. That wouldn't be training at all. The trading games are used to train.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I don't think you understand the methods people are suggesting if you think they're not an attempt to fix resource guarding. I fixed my resource guarder using these methods. Not because I'm afraid of him but because they work and are kinder than asserting some kind of dominion over every object in my house.


I agree no one is saying these are long term fixes, only short term management until the OP can see a behaviorist.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> does everybody on this forum thinks it is simply NORMAL for a PUPPY to guard something and the humans not to take action so that later on we can label the adult dog as a "resource guarder?"


Um, no, not even sort of. Everybody has been giving advice about how to FIX the problem. Look, the puppy is guarding a resource. This means the puppy is a resource guarder. Whether you like labels or not, that's just how it is. Yes, this is a normal dog behavior, but one humans find objectionable, so advice has been given about how to fix it. If you prefer your method, feel free to share what that method is, but other people have found success with other methods (I FIXED my resource guarder with the method I shared). And if someone has had/seen poor results with your method, they're free to say so.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> If you prefer your method, feel free to share what that method is...


Just don't be afraid and take the ball away! MAGIC.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

It is my opinion that after ten pages everyone needs to let the OP contact a veterinary behaviorist so someone can rule out health issues and someone can determine if pup is likely to be wired right.

Everyone's RG observations are interesting  we are participating in a national pilot for these issues at work right now.

OP, let me know if you would like assistance in finding a behaviorist, veterinary behaviorist, or someone else in your area. Others on the board should be able to help as well.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Continuing to have a conversation does not prevent the OP from contacting a veterinary behaviorist.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Continuing to have a conversation does not prevent the OP from contacting a veterinary behaviorist.


This is very true, everyone please continue.

I've been talking about this topic almost nonstop at work and am so excited to link the study when it's done. Everyone, just hang on like another year until it gets peer reviewed! ITS SO APPLICABLE TO THIS TEN PAGES I have to stop now I've been wanting to comment on this thread forever.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Willowy said:


> A method is just a way of doing something. Any way you do something is a method.
> 
> Huh. I guess some things are philosophical differences. I don't want to own everything, or have my dogs think I own everything. I'm not nearly control-freaky enough for that. I want my dogs to have some autonomy and know that some things are theirs. I just don't want them to be tense/stressed thinking I might take it. I want them to be able to relax and know that I won't take it without a good reason. I think that would require a totally different. . .method  than the "I own everything" mentality.


Sorry that that's what you took away from what I wrote about a five month pup. It is interesting. Maybe the reason I am so surprised about this forum's love-affair with the term resource guarder is simply the fact it is a non-issue with my dogs. Because you see...my dogs aren't tense or stressed that I "may take something from them" because I rarely have to. For sure, I don't know you, willowy, but you don't know me either. I am far from any sort of control freak. In fact, in my years these days, my dogs don't even know sit or stay or down...the mainstay of my earlier years. We live a very easy life. Heck...they still crowd the door when I want to let them out....they go out before me...I'll step over them when I can...I don't make them move...unless I'm carrying something and can't see...so I make them move, and they don't growl. they have their toys all over the house....I consider them THEIR toys because I rejoice in how they play with their toys. 

But guess what? They don't GROWL at me when I come close to their toys, and they don't GROWL at me when I want to take their leash off, they don't GROWL at me if I ask them to move off their beds so I can wash them....You are trying to put human emotions in the place of what is instinctual to a dog. You give the human quality of "autonomy" to a dog that has no conception of what that is. You equate what YOU think is "fair" in human" terms and try to equate what is NATURAL in the mind of a canine. There is a big word to describe what you are doing...Anthropomorphism. 

Huh....to use your expletive or whatever that "huh" was...dismissive or whatever. Everything you said AFTER your "huh" is certainly in your own mind and not my life. My dogs need me to understand them as DOGS, not as humans in little fur suits. Cheetohunter, I hope, will quit negotiating with your PUPPY and start acting like a mama dog. In the litters I've raised, I took heed of mama dog. I never separated puppies from the mother as what seems to be "normal" these days. Do you think, even with 8-12 puppies who are on solids after 6 weeks still wanting to suckle don't encounter the wrath from mama dog? So...Willowy...you don't think mama dog has the right to "own" her own teats from her weaned puppies? And do you think that the fact she will lash out quite extradorinarily, yet not hurting a hair on their heads is somehow "wrong"??? 

Willowy, you seem to have an "issue" with dogs understanding the concept of not always getting what they want. I started off trusting a breeder who ripped away puppies from the mother at 5 weeks. That fact was brought home to me when my breeder complained that my dog RIPPED APART her whelping area, including the metal flashing around the doors, in order to get back to her puppies here were taken away at 5 weeks. When I was on my own, I decided to let my BITCHES decide how to deal with weaning.

Well...I was blessed with GREAT bitches. I never separated them, even though I began weaning at 5 weeks. But puppies are puppies....they WANT WHAT THEY WANT. And despite processed food to actual meat and milk I gave them, and they ate...they ALWAYS wanted to nurse. So WILLOWY....despite your thinking I am some sort of control freak, I let MY DOGS figure all of this out. I let my bitches figure out, after I began solids when they wanted the pups to do ANYTHING. When the bitches were uncomfortable with alot of milk, they would allow the vultures (I mean pups) to nurse for a short period of time, and then they would tap out...and when the vultures (I mean pups) became insistent...my bitches would loudly and terrifyingly tell them ENOUGH. The puppies were never hurt or injured...OMG, some would screech and scream as if they were being murdered right before everybody's eyes. The bitches didn't run to them APOLOGIZING....they didn't NEGOTIATE with them. They simply went about their business, or sat down and looked indifferently at them. Some pups got the idea quickly...some didn't. The ones that didn't got escalating PUNISHMENT from the bitches. And YET...these same bitches cared for, gave attention to all of the puppies the same, and the punks WERE NOT AFRAID of the bitch....they weren't "TENSE OR STRESSED" as Willowy seems to think puppies will be if you don't give them their way. 

Guess what???? There were DEFINITELY times when I wanted to interfere...especially early on....I felt SORRY for the puppies. I found myself "taking sides" early on for the puppies against the mother. Well...years later, I was ALL on the side of the mother. She wasn't HURTING any of the puppies. She was teaching them. The puppies were learning that just because they wanted something, didn't mean they could have it (among other important things). 

If a mother DOG won't stand for such insolent behavior, neither should humans.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

PaddiB said:


> Sorry that that's what you took away from what I wrote about a five month pup. It is interesting. Maybe the reason I am so surprised about this forum's love-affair with the term resource guarder is simply the fact it is a non-issue with my dogs. Because you see...my dogs aren't tense or stressed that I "may take something from them" because I rarely have to. For sure, I don't know you, willowy, but you don't know me either. I am far from any sort of control freak. In fact, in my years these days, my dogs don't even know sit or stay or down...the mainstay of my earlier years. We live a very easy life. Heck...they still crowd the door when I want to let them out....they go out before me...I'll step over them when I can...I don't make them move...unless I'm carrying something and can't see...so I make them move, and they don't growl. they have their toys all over the house....I consider them THEIR toys because I rejoice in how they play with their toys.
> 
> But guess what? They don't GROWL at me when I come close to their toys, and they don't GROWL at me when I want to take their leash off, they don't GROWL at me if I ask them to move off their beds so I can wash them....You are trying to put human emotions in the place of what is instinctual to a dog. You give the human quality of "autonomy" to a dog that has no conception of what that is. You equate what YOU think is "fair" in human" terms and try to equate what is NATURAL in the mind of a canine. There is a big word to describe what you are doing...Anthropomorphism.
> 
> ...


Please stop suggesting things that are likely to get the OP bit and mess up a normal puppy at best, and likely to get the OP attacked and have to deal with the stress of "failing" an abnormal puppy at worst.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> For high value items I don't trade up since there is nothing to trade up to, I practice taking it away and then giving it right back or exchanging for something the dog deems of equal value, etc. I myself have never had a resource guarder but I do believe that some breeds and types of dog personalities are more predisposed to resource guarding than others no matter how much proofing the owner does against it.
> 
> For everything else I exchange for a treat, I also am very careful not to give them anything I will have to take away right away. I try to be respectful to my dogs, I try to treat them like I would want to be treated, and I understand how I would feel if someone was taking my things away, putting their hands in my food, so why would I do it to my dogs?
> 
> Anyway that's the best way I can respond becsuse I have problems deciphering your posts lol.


Sigh...I don't get it.....why are you PRACTICING taking things away from your dog???? You say you don't understand what I am saying...I understand NOTHING about what you just said. "for everything else you exchange for a treat?" What does that mean? You are careful not to give them something you will have to take right back? Why would you even be thinking that? You sound extremely nervous about everything you do. You treat your dogs how you want to be treated???? I'm sorry...I've always talked about dogs...not about human behavior.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Cheetohunter....I'm addressing you, because you are the one that came for help. I am actually a big fan of the NILIF as a broad scope of how to deal with a pup such as yours, and it makes even more sense because you are dealing with a pup. There is no "trading up" or "negotiating." You actually tried some of it regarding what I suggested by feeding meals from your hand...and you have liked the results, you said he is calmer. You should employ the same regarding toys and walks. I am IMPLORING you to not be afraid of your five month old puppy, and I hope you continue with NILIF, not as a method, but as a starting point, but also begin learning about canine behavior in general, and not what humans think canine behavior is. I don't know what more I can give since I'm not following the party line of RG issues. Good luck!


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

I'm not my dog's mother and I think he knows it. I imagine it's the same for OP. So not sure how effective treating it like its mother is when the dog isn't fooled. Sounds like a good way to send OP to the ER considering how high-strung their dog is.

NILIF is a really good thing to practice, for sure, but they need to understand counter conditioning and negotiation too. If the dog steals something and is being a grouch, negotiation is a sure fire way to get the object away from him and not get bit. It's not like the owners can magically not be afraid and know how to avoid a bite in those situations...


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

PaddiB said:


> Sigh...I don't get it.....why are you PRACTICING taking things away from your dog???? You say you don't understand what I am saying...I understand NOTHING about what you just said. "for everything else you exchange for a treat?" What does that mean? You are careful not to give them something you will have to take right back? Why would you even be thinking that? You sound extremely nervous about everything you do. You treat your dogs how you want to be treated???? I'm sorry...I've always talked about dogs...not about human behavior.


She means that she gives the dogs a treat for giving whatever it is she wants them to give up. And your posts make no sense, that is why nobody seems to be getting your point. We all have varying levels of experience with dogs, we all know what resource guarding is and the motive behind the behavior (fear, insecurity) what we DON'T know is what you're getting at.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> Sigh...I don't get it.....why are you PRACTICING taking things away from your dog????


Because training requires practice? 

Seriously, you're having an argument about a technique people aren't advocating. You don't even understand what people are saying to do.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> Well...I was blessed with GREAT bitches. I never separated them, even though I began weaning at 5 weeks. But puppies are puppies....they WANT WHAT THEY WANT. And despite processed food to actual meat and milk I gave them, and they ate...they ALWAYS wanted to nurse. So WILLOWY....despite your thinking I am some sort of control freak, I let MY DOGS figure all of this out. I let my bitches figure out, after I began solids when they wanted the pups to do ANYTHING. When the bitches were uncomfortable with alot of milk, they would allow the vultures (I mean pups) to nurse for a short period of time, and then they would tap out...and when the vultures (I mean pups) became insistent...my bitches would loudly and terrifyingly tell them ENOUGH. The puppies were never hurt or injured...OMG, some would screech and scream as if they were being murdered right before everybody's eyes. The bitches didn't run to them APOLOGIZING....they didn't NEGOTIATE with them. They simply went about their business, or sat down and looked indifferently at them. Some pups got the idea quickly...some didn't. The ones that didn't got escalating PUNISHMENT from the bitches. And YET...these same bitches cared for, gave attention to all of the puppies the same, and the punks WERE NOT AFRAID of the bitch....they weren't "TENSE OR STRESSED" as Willowy seems to think puppies will be if you don't give them their way.


 It's easy enough to provide an "out" for the bitch in case you're not present. For example, by putting up a barrier that she can jump over but the pups can't. She never hurt or injured them? physically, maybe not but mentally, that's gotta have some kind of lasting effect if they're at the point of screeching and screaming as if being murdered. It's a significant risk at least, and one I wouldn't be willing to take at a time when pups are so impressionable. I mean, cripes, they're trying to nurse, survive -- not trying to pester the bitch by pulling on her tail. And if you're present, then it's your job to moderate as soon as it reaches the point when she 'taps out' as you say. You can't just stand idly by and expect her to fend for herself, thinking 'geez, _that's_ a good lesson for the pups, to prevent them from RGing in the future'. Good grief.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

FACT: If one person has always done something one way, that way will always work for everyone forever the end.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TSTrainer said:


> She means that she gives the dogs a treat for giving whatever it is she wants them to give up. And your posts make no sense, that is why nobody seems to be getting your point. We all have varying levels of experience with dogs, we all know what resource guarding is and the motive behind the behavior (fear, insecurity) what we DON'T know is what you're getting at.


Thank you lol, I try my best to answer paddiB's questions but I find their post to be very hard to read and comprehend. They say this and that and the other, they rant about one thing and then totally backpedal and then rant about something completely different at least that's the most I can decipher from the post so I try to answer them as best I can. 

PaddiB- And lol about me being nervous, you know I used to work with race horses for a living right? Nervous... Lmao, in horses nervous can get you killed, I've never been nervous around one of my animals, but I also work very hard so they are nervous around me either. A dog should never fear its owner in any way, they should never fear you're going to take something away from them and not give it back Etc.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Mother dogs sometimes kill their puppies. Sometime they physically injure their puppies in a way that causes them problems later in life. Instinctually speaking, it makes no sense to injure/kill your own genetic legacy, but it does happen, and this is something concrete that can't be disputed. I have no doubt that a mother dog _could_ mentally injure her puppies in such a way that would cause them problems later in life. Early life experience affects brain development. Studies in rats show that a harsh mother often raises nervous and/or mentally unstable little rats. I'm sure it's all very normal for a mother dog to snark at her pups now and then but if she had them on the ground and they were screaming bloody murder, I think that's a good sign that something is very wrong and I would interfere. 

Regardless, dogs aren't stupid and they know very well that we aren't dogs. And we don't speak dog language. Trying to act like a dog isn't going to get a human very far in dog training.

I'm interested to hear about the studies that Rescued is talking about. Sounds cool! 

Until then, I've been watching my own dogs (4 of them) and how they handle resources and stuff. I don't interfere in their relationships unless someone is going to get hurt. So, here are my observations. Toby and Moose are kind of bullies. You could say they're dominant over resources, if you wanna. Between the boys, it depends who gets there first. After having a few fights over the years, they've learned that neither of them will back down so now it's whoever gets it first has dibs and the other one doesn't argue. Moose is bigger but Toby is scrappier so they came out about even when they fought (and, yes, I did what I could to minimize fighting but it still broke out occasionally). If one of the girls gets to a desirable thing first, whichever boy is closest will try to get it from her. If he's close enough to MAKE her give it up, she'll give it up somewhat grudgingly, but willingly, because they've learned that the boys WILL take something by force if they can (Penny never fights for resources but Suri will. She's learned she won't win against the boys so she's mostly given up now). If he's not that close, and she thinks she has a chance, she'll grab it and run. Both girls are faster and smarter than the boys so they have a fair chance of getting away with it. The males will not chase her to try to make her give it up, as long as she doesn't get close enough for him to think he has a chance to take it by force. 

None of that says "respect" or "alpha" to me. It seems more like "possession is 9/10ths of the law and if you want something, you have to fight for it, or run fast". That's. . .not really how I want my dogs to relate to me, and I doubt most people have that as their goal in dog training. The method described by so many people is just basic conditioning. You're changing the dog's conditioned response to stimuli.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Mother dogs sometimes kill their puppies. Sometime they physically injure their puppies in a way that causes them problems later in life. Instinctually speaking, it makes no sense to injure/kill your own genetic legacy, but it does happen, and this is something concrete that can't be disputed. I have no doubt that a mother dog _could_ mentally injure her puppies in such a way that would cause them problems later in life. Early life experience affects brain development. Studies in rats show that a harsh mother often raises nervous and/or mentally unstable little rats. I'm sure it's all very normal for a mother dog to snark at her pups now and then but if she had them on the ground and they were screaming bloody murder, I think that's a good sign that something is very wrong and I would interfere.
> 
> Regardless, dogs aren't stupid and they know very well that we aren't dogs. And we don't speak dog language. Trying to act like a dog isn't going to get a human very far in dog training.


You just made me think of one situation... Clyde is much older than Louie and was pretty much the "father" figure for him when he was a young puppy. There were a few times Louie would have something, Clyde tried to just walk up and take it. Baby Louie would growl and snap at the gigantic older dog. Clyde would just walk away... So if I wanted to treat RG the way my dog would, I would be caving in 9/10 times...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Haha, yeah, look at the edit add-on in my last post. If I wanted to handle RGing like my dogs handle it, it would be either physically fighting over it until someone backs down, or taking the item and running fast . I don't think I can win a dog fight (sadly, my teeth are dull and weak ) or outrun a dog so I guess I have to use my big human brain to think of something else.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If I handled resource guarding like my set of dogs do, I'd pretty much be trading, anyway. My dogs are great at bringing out a toy or treat they don't really want, making it look desirable. Then whoever had what they actually cared about leaves to get The Thing, they drop it and go steal the other one. 

Of course I live in a house where Molly and Kylie BRING treats and toys to Kylie and Bug (and even occasionally jack), so....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> If I handled resource guarding like my set of dogs do, I'd pretty much be trading, anyway. My dogs are great at bringing out a toy or treat they don't really want, making it look desirable. Then whoever had what they actually cared about leaves to get The Thing, they drop it and go steal the other one.


Haha, yeah, Penny does that a lot. Like I said, at my house the girls are definitely smarter. .. .


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Mine have to be separated when chews or toys are involved because Lincoln doesn't like to share and will take them, if he can't get to them, his stare from afar alone is enough to intimate Josefina and make her not want to chew on her toys anymore lol.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> It's easy enough to provide an "out" for the bitch in case you're not present. For example, by putting up a barrier that she can jump over but the pups can't. She never hurt or injured them? physically, maybe not but mentally, that's gotta have some kind of lasting effect if they're at the point of screeching and screaming as if being murdered. It's a significant risk at least, and one I wouldn't be willing to take at a time when pups are so impressionable. I mean, cripes, they're trying to nurse, survive -- not trying to pester the bitch by pulling on her tail. And if you're present, then it's your job to moderate as soon as it reaches the point when she 'taps out' as you say. You can't just stand idly by and expect her to fend for herself, thinking 'geez, _that's_ a good lesson for the pups, to prevent them from RGing in the future'. Good grief.


Seriously? If you actually believe what you just wrote, then you are basically saying that some PERSON who is trying to make money with some sort of solution knows more than the VERY thing....the actual DOG...or whatever animal you want to talk about is somehow obsolete? Those puppies aren't trying to SURVIVE...they have full bellies...they are being weaned...and of course my bitch had a way to "get out" if she wanted to. She CHOSE to do whatever she would do with HER puppies. And it is NOT my job to moderate...because SHE had the power. My interference would have been an abomination. Did it BOTHER me when she would discipline a pup and it would scream? Yep...and my first inclination at first was to comfort the pup...until I realized she was TEACHING them and puppies are, if nothing else, drama queens and kings. Have you seen actual wild mustangs naturally wean their foals? It is not pretty...it is brutal, but effective. 

You seem to think that a 6-8 month old pup who has been disciplined by it's mother is somehow so bad...that a HUMAN can do better? Humans screw crap up. I think I read later on about a bit killing pups...I'll find that and comment when I find it....

Have you ever raised a litter of pups?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Are you saying all domesticated dogs are perfect in every way? If lab rats can be overly harsh mothers, enough to damage their young, often enough for it to be studied, I'm pretty sure dogs can too.

If a wild animal damages her offspring in any significant way, her offspring will die and her genes and parenting style won't be passed on. Human control of breeding changes things. I wouldn't necessarily trust a domestic dog's parenting instincts.

Oh wait---are we talking about 6-8 MONTH old pups or 6-8 WEEK old pups? if they're 6-8 months old, yeah, I guess it would be normal for her to be fairly harsh with them. Not at 6-8 weeks though---a wild animal would not make her young offspring scream as that attracts predators and they would be too young to escape/fight back. So if a domestic dog is doing that, it would indicate to me that she's being unnaturally harsh.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Mother dogs sometimes kill their puppies. Sometime they physically injure their puppies in a way that causes them problems later in life. Instinctually speaking, it makes no sense to injure/kill your own genetic legacy, but it does happen, and this is something concrete that can't be disputed. I have no doubt that a mother dog _could_ mentally injure her puppies in such a way that would cause them problems later in life. Early life experience affects brain development. Studies in rats show that a harsh mother often raises nervous and/or mentally unstable little rats. I'm sure it's all very normal for a mother dog to snark at her pups now and then but if she had them on the ground and they were screaming bloody murder, I think that's a good sign that something is very wrong and I would interfere.
> 
> Regardless, dogs aren't stupid and they know very well that we aren't dogs. And we don't speak dog language. Trying to act like a dog isn't going to get a human very far in dog training.
> 
> ...


Yep...you're right...sometimes mother dogs kill their puppies. I was friends with a terrier breeder....many terrier breeds actually kill their puppies. For no particular reason. Makes me wonder what kinds of dogs PEOPLE are breeding. If one of my bitches blatently killed her pups, the NORMAL response would be to SERIOUSLY reconsider using that bitch again, REGARDLESS of her show wins. Obviously that hasn't happened. 

Willowy, you and others seem to take delight in getting people to think you don't "understand" what the heck I am trying to say. That's fine. Because I'm not trying to push a method or regurgitate academic people talking about mice and rats in studies that have nothing to do with why a 5 month old corgi puppy has instilled such fear in her owners. It seems from the other posts on this matter that some actually agree with me that "trading up" isn't the holy grail....but yet they still deny ANY sort of solution that will result in ANY SORT OF DISTRESS that may be evoked from the dog (puppy). 

HEALTHY growth throughout the years requires a puppy, and dare I say, a HUMAN child to feel the sting of being told NO. Seems to be something sorely missing these days in both worlds. Seems like adults these days have a curious abhorrent emotional response to the loud and piercing response of adolescents wanting what they want when they want it. Seems like Willowy and others think that a GOOD brood bitch who appropriately disciples her puppies is somehow on the verge of KILLING them because he/she can't stand the actual NOISE of the offenders. Weird.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

A lot of adults now have some serious emotional issues stemming from how their parents treated them. Lots of adults in the past had serious emotional issues stemming from how their parents treated them (hence: alcoholism, drug abuse, depression, anxiety, anger, etc.). And of course now we know that it's not necessary to scar someone emotionally to raise a decent adult (which people in the past may not have known). Could be why many adults are choosing not to raise their kids the way their parents raised them. When something becomes a trend, one may want to look into why it's a trend. 

And we've seen similar results with dogs. When someone remembers every dog they knew in the past cowering in the corner every time someone looked/sounded annoyed, we don't want those same results in our own dogs. 

And since it's possible to train a dog without causing distress, why cause unnecessary distress? For macho kicks? Some kind of power trip? If there's a way to do something without hurting someone, why wouldn't you choose that way?

You show no indication of understanding what anyone is talking about. You're all like "what! You can't let the puppy just do whatever he wants!" and nobody is actually advocating that. You're making stuff up to object to. People are recommending a common and proven counter-conditioning technique. That actually works without causing any distress to anyone.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

No, I dont think dogs punish for noise, they punish for actions, sure. But noise, no, thats not what i would personally consider normal. I have seen dogs get overstimulated and redirect on other dogs who make noise, but that is an arousal issue, not a discipline issue.

and PaddiB, THAT particular post I understood LOL


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> You show no indication of understanding what anyone is talking about. You're all like "what! You can't let the puppy just do whatever he wants!" and nobody is actually advocating that. You're making stuff up to object to. People are recommending a common and proven counter-conditioning technique. That actually works without causing any distress to anyone.


Right, exactly. This is a perfect encapsulation of what everyone else is trying to say. 


Well, maybe it might cause distress to some people's egos. But that's the least important character in this scenario so who cares.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

> but yet they still deny ANY sort of solution that will result in ANY SORT OF DISTRESS that may be evoked from the dog (puppy).


If you deliberately seek out causing distress to people to get what you want, in situations where there is a clear alternative, most would consider you cruel.

Why is it suddenly an OK thing to do to a dog?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BigLittle said:


> If you deliberately seek out causing distress to people to get what you want, in situations where there is a clear alternative, most would consider you cruel.
> 
> Why is it suddenly an OK thing to do to a dog?


I know, right?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> Seriously? If you actually believe what you just wrote,


 Oh, I actually believe what I wrote. Without question. It's what YOU write on a regular basis that I'm finding impossible to believe. I've shaken my head so many times in utter astonishment that it's a wonder it's still attached.

And, yeah.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Oh, I actually believe what I wrote. Without question. It's what YOU write on a regular basis that I'm finding impossible to believe. I've shaken my head so many times in utter astonishment that it's a wonder it's still attached.
> 
> And, yeah.


I am impressed you could understand their posts LOL, because most of the time I cant ... I dont know ... maybe its just me LOL, it seems PaddiB contradicts themselves so much that I cant follow what they are trying to say ... the LAST post they made WAS clear and concise, I dont know why they cant do it like that all the time, and paragraph breaks ... they make things a LOT easier to read! Maybe thats the problem?

And yes, I know that I dont put apostrophes in words like "don't" when I am on my compter, it doesnt auto add it and I am lazy LOL.


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