# Pro Plan or Science Diet?



## vols1118

Of the 2 brands, Purina Pro Plan and Hill's Science Diet which one would be the best to feed my chihuahua/dachshund mix? I have heard mixed reviews about these two foods. Thanks.


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## Binkalette

Neither are very good foods imo. Check out the dogfoodproject.com for some info on dog food and their ingredients and such. If it came down to it though, and I had no other choice than to feed Pro Plan or Science Diet, I would probably choose Pro Plan as SD is usually -very- over priced.


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## baorb

I wouldn't feed either. 
Costco has kirklands, a lot cheaper and better.
I would go with something like Orijen, Wellness, Taste of the Wild, or something close to them.


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## Labsnothers

Both are successfully used in service dog programs. The professionals that select foods for such programs skip the speculation based sites such as dogfood analysis. They have access to to the JAVMA, the staff in veterinary schools, their own testing, and other real sources of information unavailable to average dog owners. 

What are they eating now? If it is a chicken based food, the chicken Pro plan is easier to find. If lamb based, go with the Science. The fewer different kinds of proteins a dog eats when it is young, the easier it is to work around allergies if it ever does develop any.


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## nico8

Go with the Pro Plan, because it's the best of those two brands, for the price.


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## Keechak

Of those, go with Pro Plan


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## Kina_A

What Baorb said.


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## Jordan S

Personally, I'd say neither. but Pro plan IS a bit better then science diet. Science diet is pretty much the carb queen. Even their canned foods have like 25% carbs on a dry matter basis. And they like to put in stuff like soybean hulls(yes not the bean but the hull) thinking it would do any food. 

Pro Plan has a ton of empty grain-fillers. And pretty much their only protein source is a by product. 

If your on a budget, I would try TOTW. If not EVO or Orijen. I'm a big fan of grain-free.


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## Labsnothers

Can any of you detractors point out which nutrients fall below the AAFCO guidelines in either food?


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## PureMutt

vols1118 said:


> Of the 2 brands, Purina Pro Plan and Hill's Science Diet which one would be the best to feed my chihuahua/dachshund mix? I have heard mixed reviews about these two foods. Thanks.


Where do you shop for dog food?


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## vols1118

PureMutt said:


> Where do you shop for dog food?


Petco or Petsmart but I am a college student so I am looking for something within a moderate price range to feed my dog.


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## nico8

Labsnothers said:


> Can any of you detractors point out which nutrients fall below the AAFCO guidelines in either food?


You've pointed out ,many times, how lax the AAFCO guidelines are...and now if a food complies with them it MUST be good enough for everyone's dog. Haha please...


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## paradiseco

Look at the ingredients label on the bag. Whatever you buy, whether on a budget or not, the first ingredient should be a protein. Try to avoid any food that has corn in it. Corn is just a filler. The first ingredient on a label is the primary ingredient. The second and third are also important. You will notice dog food that will say 'corn' for the first ingredient. Avoid these!!. The way it was explained to me is that if you feed your dog food that is not good for him/her it is like eating McDonalds every day. (can you say "SuperSize" movie?) Not healthy at all.


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## ipreferpi

Of the two, I'd do pro plan.

You might also want to see if you can get a costco card (if you're in college then maybe you and your housemates/room mates or friends could go in on one, it would probably save you guys money) and the kirkland brand of dog food is not a bad thing. It's also pretty cheap to my understanding, and it's quality vs price ratio isn't bad.

Something else you might look into if you can get it is Skoki, which is a food put out by First Mate. It isn't grain free, but I've been told it's a decent quality, and is 40$ for a 40lb bag. 

If you can afford a little bit more, and your dog does well on grain free, Taste of the Wild is good too. 

One thing to keep in mind is that the value of a food isn't always indicated by the size of the bag vs. price. Compare a food that's say 40$ for a 40lb bag, but your dog needs to eat twice as much as a food that's 60$ for a 40lb bag. The food that appears more expensive might be a better value because your dog needs to eat less of it. Checking the back of a bag for that info can save you a lot in the long run.

Good luck with your dog! Don't be afraid to try different things (just switch over gradually to avoid an upset tummy), and remember you can always write to a manufacture, and many will send you free samples of their food to try.


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## StarfishSaving

Of the two, Pro Plan is absolutely the better brand. Not to mention, dogs seem to like it more in my experience (I worked at a shelter where the dogs were fed only Hills SD and at a 90 dog kennel where the dogs ate only Pro Plan, so I'd say my sample size is pretty decent for this claim! lol) 

For the same money, though, there are certainly better foods but if these are the best options available to you in your area, go with the Purina.


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## PureMutt

Natural balance is sold at Petco. And it's cheaper than science diet and pro plan.


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## Labsnothers

nico8 said:


> You've pointed out ,many times, how lax the AAFCO guidelines are...and now if a food complies with them it MUST be good enough for everyone's dog. Haha please...


What I have suggested is that the AAFCO testing isn't rigorous. As far as I know, nobody questions their guidelines on nutrients. 

Now once again, does anybody have any proof that that Pro Plan or Science Diet is short on essential nutrients? 

I am tired of speculation based on ingredients.


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## Bugsy

Purina Pro Plan looks like it's the better of the two. I think what Labsnothers might be getting at is that neither will kill your dog, and that's pretty much true, barring any unlikely contamination of product.


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## Jordan S

Well petco and petsmart have a few decent foods. 

Petco:
Wellness(my top pick, best ingredients, and great grain free forumlas, we always end up coming back to CORE reduced fat  )
Natural Balance
Pinnacle
Natures Recipe

Petsmart:
Blue Buffalo
By nature organics

Labsnothers :
I don't think it's the point. You can eat a diet of tortilla chips and nothing but . That's like saying as long it's ok as long as theres some protein powder and a multivitamin on the side. What about the quality and source of the nutrients? I mean the stance you have is so ridiculous to me. A food with corn as the main ingredient, a couple cheap organs meats,beef tallow,BHA,and color is superior to a food with named meat in the top 5 ingredients, fruits,veggies,and omega oils as long as you throw some vitamins in???


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## StarfishSaving

Labsnothers said:


> What I have suggested is that the AAFCO testing isn't rigorous. As far as I know, nobody questions their guidelines on nutrients.
> 
> Now once again, does anybody have any proof that that Pro Plan or Science Diet is short on essential nutrients?
> 
> I am tired of speculation based on ingredients.



I'm not sure that anyone here has said that either of these is lacking in the nutrition needed to keep your dog alive (or healthy, even.) But that doesn't mean that all brands and formulas are made alike or that you can't make an informed decision to find a better food within the same distance or financial capacity. Ingredient lists can be sneaky and they're not the be-all, end-all way to determine a food's quality, but that IS one of the best ways available to us in which to compare foods. AAFCO guidelines are far from foolproof and reliable. Many of the foods that have been known to cause deficiencies and longterm health problems in dogs have passed AAFCO trial periods because they last half a year and data is not generally collected beyond that. The trials are not conclusive, they are to be taken at face value.


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## baorb

vols1118 said:


> Petco or Petsmart but I am a college student so I am looking for something within a moderate price range to feed my dog.


I think the Kirkland Dog food would be your best choice if your on a budget and have a Costco near. I think it was $20 for 40lb. 

Petsmart -
Blue Buffalo
By Nature

Petco -
Blue Buffalo
Natural Balance
Wellness
Solid Gold

You might also want to check if there are other local pet stores.
They might have more food, maybe cheaper. I know when I found
one, I was so happy. They had so many different of brands that I 
would like to try for them. I think I was more excited than the dogs. 

Good luck.


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## Masterjedi688

Instead of going to Petsmart or PETCO, you can go to Wal-mart or Target. I stopped going to PETCO and Petsmart because there prices on dog foods are pricey even the ones that are not pricey. I only go to PETCO for other things, but if I know Walmart or Target has what I need at a cheaper price, TRUST ME I'm going to either one of them. I can understand your situation when it comes to prices on dog foods. It would be nice if the more expensive brands were more affordable. I would love to feed my dog one of those GRAIN FREE brands, but my family and I have to make due with what we can afford. My dog used to be on ROYAL Canin when we first got him. Thats not cheap. Then we switched to NUTRO Max which aint cheap either. Only the small bags under 10 pounds were affordable. But you want enough dog food to last your dog a while depending on the size of the breed and how much he or she eats. TRUST me on that note. I feed my dog PURINE ONE. He's happy healthy and energetic. But if I ever win the lotto, I will feed my dog a GRAIN FREE brand of dog food LOL.


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## Labsnothers

I mostly stuck to the topic, choosing between Pro Plan and Science. I did consider suggesting buying the dogs food where the OP buys their own. Most supermarkets have both Iams and Purina 1 at very affordable prices. I think all the foods are formulated to meet the nutrition requirements. Quality is mostly in the mind of the dog owner.


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## Questdriven

Of the two, Pro Plan is better.

For the benefit of others who don't know:
I have never read anything that suggested that the AAFCO nutritional standards are wrong, though they may be, but the reason to care about ingredients so much is this: if the ingredients cannot be digested the dog will not get all of the vitamins and minerals that the nutritional analysis shows. If your dog has a smaller stool on a certain brand, it is because it's more digestible. In my experience, and the experience of many others I might add, the most digestible food by far is meat-based foods, especially a raw diet. The proof of a good diet is in the pudding. Dogs can survive on many variations of many diets. They are flexible that way. But surviving and really thriving are not the same. My dogs had always done fine on brands like Purina, Pedigree, and even store brands. But their health went up even more after switching to a meat-based diet.
I'm not saying that anyone should switch diets just because they hear that something is better--no, there's a lot of misinformation out there, so I recommend doing your research and use your head. Plus, some dogs have individual dietary needs for whatever reason.


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## Labsnothers

Questdriven said:


> Of the two, Pro Plan is better.
> 
> ...but the reason to care about ingredients so much is this: if the ingredients cannot be digested the dog will not get all of the vitamins and minerals that the nutritional analysis shows. ....


Exactly. A list of ingredients tells you nothing about how they are processed or where they are introduced which has a large effect on which ones are available in the finished product. Ever read a recipe? They all start out with a list of ingredients, but have extensive instructions on what to do with them. 


Questdriven said:


> If your dog has a smaller stool on a certain brand, it is because it's more digestible.


Could be. I didn't save a link to the study that reduced the stools to their dry weight and the higher corn content ones weighed less than the lower ones. Could be the larger stools just have a higher water content.



Questdriven said:


> -no, there's a lot of misinformation out there, so I recommend doing your research and use your head.


Much of it put out in the form of internet marketing designed to elicit an emotional response to ingredients. 

Through much of the last 10,000 years man has lived with a shortage meat, largely surviving on carbohydrates. It is only in my lifetime that the western world has enjoyed such an abundance of good meat that we can share it with our dogs. I find the idea that until recently, dogs ate much but offal and grains very unrealistic.


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## Questdriven

Labsnothers said:


> Exactly. A list of ingredients tells you nothing about how they are processed or where they are introduced which has a large effect on which ones are available in the finished product. Ever read a recipe? They all start out with a list of ingredients, but have extensive instructions on what to do with them.


Yet another reason why I prefer homeprepared diets. One thing, however, is clear to me: meat-based brands are more digestible.




> Could be. I didn't save a link to the study that reduced the stools to their dry weight and the higher corn content ones weighed less than the lower ones. Could be the larger stools just have a higher water content.


Since you can't find it, I'll look it up for myself. I believe I've seen that one before, though, and find some fault with the methods that were used.
My dog's raw diet poops are so very tiny and almost completely dry.



> Much of it put out in the form of internet marketing designed to elicit an emotional response to ingredients.


I've based my conclusions on much thought and research, but most people would rather read something once and believe it rather than do their research. I know that's what I did at first. That's another bit of good that came from my conversations with you: you encouraged me to do more research. And I did. And am. 



> Through much of the last 10,000 years man has lived with a shortage meat, largely surviving on carbohydrates. It is only in my lifetime that the western world has enjoyed such an abundance of good meat that we can share it with our dogs. I find the idea that until recently, dogs ate much but offal and grains very unrealistic.


What I'm about to say is undoubtibly not a popular opinion, but here goes:
I'm sorry, I do not believe that man has "adapted" to eating carbohydrates. I hold the belief that in the beginning, man ate vegetation. I recall a verse from Genesis in the Bible where we are told to eat the wild herbs of the field. Later on in the same book, we are given _permission_ to eat some meat.
As for dogs, all animals originally ate vegetation according to the Bible, so it's no surprise that dogs can survive on this. It was after the Fall of Man, I believe, that some animals became carnivores, as part of the curse. Regardless, dogs clearly do better on meat-based foods. In all my searching, I've never found anything that proved the contrary. We never stop learning, so I'm not going to close my mind to that possibility or anything, but it would take something pretty darn convincing to change my mind.
(I realize that not everyone believes in the Bible.)


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## vols1118

What about Nature's Recipe or Avoderm? Would they be a better choice?


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## Labsnothers

In some's eyes yes. Better for your dog, unlikely. Probably the soundest advice came from Masterjedi, Purina 1.


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## Jordan S

vols1118 said:


> What about Nature's Recipe or Avoderm? Would they be a better choice?


Nah, If you shop at petco or petsmart, Blue Buffalo(persmart),Wellness(petco),Pinnacle(petco), by nature Organics(petsmart), and Natural Balance(petco) would be my top picks.


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## Questdriven

vols1118 said:


> What about Nature's Recipe or Avoderm? Would they be a better choice?


I couldn't find any ingredients list(s) for Avoderm, so I couldn't tell you. I'd go with whichever one had more meat and/or the least amount of grains.
I have never tried it, but I'm told that Innova EVO produces stools almost as small as those of a raw-fed dog. After looking up the ingredients list, I can say that if it were not for the fact that I cannot afford this food, I would be feeding it to my GSD.


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