# GSD people plz help!



## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

So after about a year of deliberation I have decided that I'd like a GSD. I want a dog with drive, that's active, smart, loyal and very bonded with me while aloof with strangers. I think the GSD fulfills all that. My current dog is a rescue and while I love him to pieces, he will never be THE dog that I want. Sam loves me, but in his own little terrier way, meaning in his mind I sit somewhere between eating cat poop and sniffing other dogs bums. He's more interested in having a grand old time doing what he wants then working with me to achieve a goal or purpose. 

Anyways, I want this dog in 1-2 years. I'd get a puppy and attempt to train and raise a dog that can participate in obediance, schutzhund and/or agility. I want a male and I wouldn't fix him unless medically necessary but I probably wouldn't breed him either (unless he proved worthy). I'm willing to pay in the $2000 for this dog, since I understand that quality costs. I also want a dog that has more than just show experience. Most breeders that I come across seem to just show their dogs in conformation, but that's not what I want.

Here's my problem: breeders in Canada suck (or the ones I have found at least)! I've talked to a few and visited some and they are all...off. One was breeding dogs with soft, floppy ears "just for fun". Another said an OFA rating of mild was good enough to breed. Others just had fat lazy dogs that served no purpose. I met a few that seemed alright, but I was settling on more then a few things I wanted with them as well. 

So, I know they're are a lot of people on here with GSD's. I'm willing to travel for a dog (although I live in Eastern Ontario, so not too far away from that, nothing over a 20ish hr drive). Any suggestions on breeders? 

Also, I want to be sure this is the dog for me. I've done my research but reading is never the same as hearing people's experiences. I don't want a dog I can't handle nor am ready for. Anything else I should know before I seriously consider this?

EDIT: 

Here's some breeders in Canada I like:

http://www.wakitashepherds.com/puppies.htm (read the puppy page part after the pictures)
http://www.janzhaus.com/


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

uhm, pardon me being completely geographically illiterate, but is Eastern Ontario near Michigan? 

I'm pro-GSD all the way. 

If you don't want "show lines" you can always go with working lines that will be more drivey, active, and want to...err.. work, which is sounds like is the fit for you. I only know basics about GSD lines, but I do not imagine an american show line would work well as a shutzhund prospect. 

ETA- _I_ don't like Wakita Shepherds personally. They have a lot of outdoor kennels which I don't agree with, have one set price which I think should vary, and HAVE to meet in person with the buyer prior to making an agreement/deposit. They seem to be a mostly show line kennel with some working lines mixed in, but I think you're looking more for a working line? Also, one of their studs is missing part of his ear... whether that's genetic or not, it does not scream good breeding to me. Either they're breeding poor healthed pups with genetic defects or aren't supervising their dogs well enough to keep them out of danger. Not my cup of tea, but that's just my opinion, I'm not familiar with the dogs.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

Eastern Ontario isn't NEAR Michigan, unless "near" is 8+ hours away! I'm in Eastern Ontario too, and have family in Michigan; it's certainly a driveable distance.

I can't be of much help to you re: breeders as I'm not a GSD person myself, but I'm sure you'll be able to find something within your driving range. Good luck!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Also, I can't find titles for any of the other kennels' dogs.



Squeeker said:


> Eastern Ontario isn't NEAR Michigan, unless "near" is 8+ hours away! I'm in Eastern Ontario too, and have family in Michigan; it's certainly a driveable distance.
> 
> I can't be of much help to you re: breeders as I'm not a GSD person myself, but I'm sure you'll be able to find something within your driving range. Good luck!


Well, there are some good breeders in Michigan that I, Xeph, and Equinox are aware of if you're interested Crzy_


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

I would be willing to drive 8 hours for the right dog for sure. Another thing I should mention is that I don't want a dog with TOO much of a sloping back. I've read that some of the show bred dogs have such severe sloping they have gait and orthopedic issues. The traditional straight back (or as straight as it needs to be for a sound dog) is more what I want. I also really like sables, although color is the least of my concerns lol.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

crzy_brunette77 said:


> I would be willing to drive 8 hours for the right dog for sure. Another thing I should mention is that I don't want a dog with TOO much of a sloping back. I've read that some of the show bred dogs have such severe sloping they have gait and orthopedic issues. The traditional straight back (or as straight as it needs to be for a sound dog) is more what I want. I also really like sables, although color is the least of my concerns lol.


I HIGHLY suggest reading this entire page you should go into this well informed and not driven by ideas that a correctly angulated dog is "bad" because it has a sloping back when stacked.
http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/06_Overall_Structure/Overall_Structure.html


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I also think you sound like a 'working line' GSD person. I, also, am not a fan of what I consider to be overangulation in some of the showlines. Many are though. To each their own. 
I can't really be of much help for your area as honestly, I haven't looked that far north for breeders. After losing my girl I haven't really looked again, yet. I, too, will add a GSD (again) but probably years from now. 
I think a GSD is a GREAT dog as long as it is physically and mentally stimulated. One of my favorite breeds, if not my favorite. Right up there with the Rott. 
Good luck with your search.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

There are plenty of excellent breeders in Ontario! Take a look at these breeders I have seen recommended by others:

http://www.committedtocanine.com/ in Fenwick, Ontario
http://www.trostbergkennels.com/ in Mississauga, Ontario
http://www.millviewshepherds.com/index2.htm in Toronto, Ontario 

However, I will HIGHLY recommend meeting these dogs and watching the dogs work in person. Depending on one's experience in the breed and with working dogs, the definition of "high drive" may pale in comparison to a working line breeder's definition of "high drive". Get to know these dogs and any prospective parents of breedings you are interested in. Get to know the lines and the dogs and their progeny. 

My dog is the "low drive" companion quality pup of the litter. Before I started talking to the owner of one of his sisters, I thought he was a spitfire and a complete handful. But I've also noticed that his drive is much higher than many of the "high drive sport/working/breeding" quality dogs from many show lines I've met. This isn't a criticism of German show lines (I love them!), just an observation. 

Also keep in mind, though, that "high drive" does not mean "crazy prey/working fiend", and that "low drive" does not mean "low energy". Any dog I have needs an off switch in the house!

Make an informed decision. Know what you want, and what you're going to get, and how to look for what you want. German Shepherds are amazing dogs, and now, any other breed just won't do for me


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Wow thanks Equinox! I really like the first one and they have an impressive track record. I think I want a low-medium drive. I don't want a dog that needs an 8 hr a day job (like a police dog or such) to be happy but I want a dog that will go the distance in obedience trials, etc. Yet, I still want him to be able to relax after a long day . With a working dog of that drive, how much exercise can I expect that it will need? I'm a runner and very athletic and like I said, the dog would be doing working trials, but I just want an idea from someone that owns the low end of the energy/drive spectrum?

Keechak, that site did clarify some things for me, thanks. The Czech working lines are what I like most in terms of conformation (Fig.7). Definitely a more square dog, but still has angulation. I think the angulation/slope thing confused me as a lot of the dogs I usually see (around the neighborhood, etc) are so badly put together that I never got a really good picture of the conformationally correct slope and one that allows the dog to excel physically.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> have one set price which I think should vary


You wouldn't like me when I breed then, as I'm going to have one set price  LOL

I don't know how far PA is from Eastern Ontario, but Eichenluft should have some nice puppies, and Molly is easy to talk to 



> The Czech working lines are what I like most in terms of conformation (Fig.7). Definitely a more square dog, but still has angulation.


Me too xD. The only complain I generally have is toplines (I don't like them). The West German working line dogs are often very conformationally sound and aesthetically pleasing as well. I think Trent's dam, Quinny, is beautiful.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

What ever happened to the early American lines (fig 4)? There's a picture later in the same site of "Old American" lines as well, and to my eye he just looks like a beautifully moderate dog.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yoncalla's Mike <3 <3 <3


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I wish you the best of luck finding your GSD puppy. I love GSDs too and I'm gonna be getting one as soon as I get my own place with the bf. Actually I wanted a pitbull but my bf loves GSDs and my brother breeds them so it's just easier that way. I'll have my pitbull puppy some day. 
I would give you my brothers information but he's all the way in NC and although he's been known to drive up to Jersey to bring a pup to it's new home I'm still sure that's too far out of your way. 
The only thing that really made me think to bring it up is because I saw you wanted something more with a straight back which is what my brother breeds. King sized, straight backed GSDs. && please before he gets labled as a BYB he health test his dogs. He's fixed dogs b4 because they"re hips didn't score good. He does breed long and short haired. Black, sable, white, and ofcourse the other typical GSD colors. His dogs are absolutely gorgeous. I'm hoping to get a long haired white one but if not I'm going for the long haird black one. 
Um, the puppies come wit a limited AKC registration, health guarentee(2 years hip/5 years health) && some other stuff I don't feel like copying off his wensite rite now lol. 
I figure it's prob too far out of your way but if your interested let me kno and I'll get the website for you.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Yoncalla's Mike <3 <3 <3


Where did he _go?_ Gorgeous color, nice top line, I like his head and neck, but nothing _stands out_. He's balanced, nothing's over done. Gorgeous.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> King sized, straight backed GSDs.


Just....no.

Don't fall for the hype, crzy. Look into reputable breeders that title and health test their stock.



> Where did he go?


*sighs* Who knows?


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Not going into the whole this line and that line argument. I have two show lines German show lines not american. They Work! They are sound in temperment and structure. If you go with working lines please be super careful of the structure and breeder you choose. I used to work SARDOG I know good working dogs when I see them and you are not stuck with getting working line to get a good drive working gsd. Many working line breeders cut corners in testing and I just suggest you find the very best you can if you go that route just as much as I suggest you research a showline kennel very well. Ask for videos if you cannot visit showing the behavior and work ability of the parents. I suggest you learn about angulation as it sounds like you do not understand why a gsd is built to have angulation. It is a common misconception most new people do not understand why the dog is structured the way it is and why too much of it same as too little of it is bad. Learn what you need to look for. I suggest you join a gsd forum not that this one isnt great but specialty forums can teach you alot more about specifics. I also suggest you join a schutzhund club now and that will help you learn most do not mind you hanging out and teaching you even before you get your dog and it will help you learn before buying.

The gsd is meant to be a medium sized dog and the king was also out crossed to malamutes. Kings are bred like many breeds suffer when they hit America for large dogs to be bigger so people can go omg I have a hugeeeeeee gsd or I have a huge rottweiler or for in the case of toy dogs see I can fit mine into a smaller purse!!! 


Please don't go for the king shepherd sales pitch if you are wanting a good working stable gsd.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Xeph it's great your so into show dogs and all that but seriously you know nothing bout good dogs outside of standard. I just recently saw a dog you would love. A seeing eye dog GSD that my bf said was a NICE dog and looked great. I looked at it and thought it was the ugliest GSD I ever saw. Y? cuz it's butt was like 5 inches from the ground and I grew up around big GSDs that had straight backs and I could litteraly ride and lay on. I've grown up with king size GSDs that are great with kids and love thier families and have always been the perfect family dog. Not those ugly show GSDs that look nothing like what I consider a real GSD to be. Oh and I did meantion that he health test his dogs..the only thing he doesn't do is title them which isn't a problem unless you want to show your dog. If you want a working dog then his dogs would be absolutely fine. && i bet my brother probably has a dog from a breeder that you would find reputable cuz some of his dogs do have parents that have been shown so they can't be that far off standard.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Xeph it's great your so into show dogs and all that but seriously you know nothing bout good dogs outside of standard. I just recently saw a dog you would love. A seeing eye dog GSD that my bf said was a NICE dog and looked great. I looked at it and thought it was the ugliest GSD I ever saw. Y? cuz it's butt was like 5 inches from the ground and I grew up around big GSDs that had straight backs and I could litteraly ride and lay on. I've grown up with king size GSDs that are great with kids and love thier families and have always been the perfect family dog. Not those ugly show GSDs that look nothing like what I consider a real GSD to be. *Oh and I did meantion that he health test his dogs..the only thing he doesn't do is title them which isn't a problem unless you want to show your dog.* If you want a working dog then his dogs would be absolutely fine. && i bet my brother probably has a dog from a breeder that you would find reputable cuz some of his dogs do have parents that have been shown so they can't be that far off standard.


I'm glad that your brother health tests his dogs, but you don't need conformation style dogs to title them. There are MANY performance venues that award titles which, to a puppy buyer, show third party verification of breeding stock.

Your word, that doesn't mean much. I don't know you. The word of three different people on three different occasions who I don't know either but I know their position as judge requires a heck of a lot of knowledge and practical experience, their word I can trust more. Because if three people in the dog world agree on something, that's really something.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

The thing is my brother isn't really into the whole dog showing and title thing. He recently just gave two puppies away to be trained and given to kids with disabilities and he plans on breeding more puppies to be trained as police dogs but outside of that he breeds because he loves absolutely loves..more like is obsessed with the breed and wants to make the best family dogs he can. That's why he health test and everything...he really does love the breed so much and is breeding them for the better. But for how he sees them as better and I agree. The straight back GSD looks better and more healthy and those are the kind that we grew up around. Not the GSDs that you see now a days that look like they'll drop with one kick and look like they need a back brace or something


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

The term straight backed gsd shows me you really know nothing about the breed then ad to it the king shepherd sales pitch. I suggest you learn then you will understand why people are saying what they are about your brothers "Kings"


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Whatever really. I know nothing so I'm just gonna shut up. Seriously maybe King was the wrong wierd. His GSDs are big dogs. Compared to a regular GSD they look the same if not better. Actually if someone would explain how to work this stupid picture things cuz I forget I would love to show you picture of his horribly bred GSDs that are so not up to the standard of your wonderful lil show dogs

&& really maybe if you looked into the history of the GSD and saw what the original GSD actually looked like I'll put it on my life that my brothers GSDs look more like what a GSD was known to look like then what these show GSDs look like now adays


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> The thing is my brother isn't really into the whole dog showing and title thing. He recently just gave two puppies away to be trained and given to kids with disabilities and he plans on breeding more puppies to be trained as police dogs but outside of that he breeds because he loves absolutely loves..more like is obsessed with the breed and wants to make the best family dogs he can. That's why he health test and everything...he really does love the breed so much and is breeding them for the better. But for how he sees them as better and I agree. The straight back GSD looks better and more healthy and those are the kind that we grew up around. Not the GSDs that you see now a days that look like they'll drop with one kick and look like they need a back brace or something


You don't better the breed by breeding for the pet market with untitled dogs. Working _lines_ doesn't mean anything, same thing Champion lines doesn't mean anything. The genetics of that are so ephemeral and easy to lose that if you don't test every generation, test them hard and cull whomever doesn't come up to snuff, you'll lose it and you end up with watered down dogs that don't have the brains or the body to do the work.

ETA: If you have the URL of the picture (either by uploading it to photobucket or similar, or hotlinking which is frowned upon but done anyway), click the picture of the tree in the reply box and paste the url in there. Also: http://www.dogforums.com/dog-pictures-forum/13113-having-trouble-posting-photos.html I would be interested in seeing pictures of the dogs, I'm always interested in seeing more dogs.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

This one is my favorite. He's a long haired GSD witout the sloping back. Untitled. Health tested with excellent hips and everything else. Only unbreeding worthy because he hasn't been judged by random people who think they know everything about what a good GSD is supposed to look like. Go ahead and tell him why his puppies don't deserve to go to loving homes because they're not up to standard.









I'm sorry cuz I'm making myself sound ignorant. Believe me I know and I will always be the first to look for a breeder that shows their dogs and health test but when it comes to certain breeds where i feel that the standards of the breed have caused health problems and I see good breeders that are health testing but not breeding to a standard that they disagree with getting bashed it upsets me. I hate the GSDs with sloping backs. They're gorgeous dogs and seeing them with their butts almost touching the ground and sometimes looking like they can barely walk upsets me. For a dog that was bred to run and herd they shouldn't look like they can barely move.



















Oh and believe me I was furious when I found out my brother was breeding cuz I don't believe in breeding unless you breed correctly. I've talked to him a lot about it and I made sure he was health testing his dogs which he was. Despite how it may seem and everyones opinion on the matter I do think he's doing the best he can for this breed. His dogs are healthy and not only that but the LOOK healthy..not deformed.

&& going back to the original post. If you find a breeder that breeds GSDs that look good to you and that show their dogs and title their dogs as well as health test then all the better. I think it's more important to know that the dogs are at least health tested because god knows an irresponsible breeder won't do even that much. When it comes down to it you won't find many breeders that breed GSDs like my brother does, against standard, but still puts all his money into making sure the dogs are healthy before he breeds them. && honestly I find dogs like his to be more healthy lookin... like I can't explain the thoughts that go through my head when I see some of the GSDs wit there backs sloped like that. Like I really feel terribly sorry for them that they have to walk around wit there back like that.. they look horrible and I swear it's a miracle that more of themdon't have more back and hip problems then they already do.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I think you missed the part where I brought up _performance_ titles. Agility, obedience, schutzhund, tracking, nose work, herding. Any of those?


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I have run into many like this. It will do no good they will always think of American showlines instead of educating themselves in the real gsd world about all showlines. I have showlines German showlines not am bred HUGE difference and they have to work and pass working titles and conformation titles before they can be bred. Your arguments regarding them are invalid.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> I think you missed the part where I brought up _performance_ titles. Agility, obedience, schutzhund, tracking, nose work, herding. Any of those?


Well one of the statements I have heard many times is that "Oh my dog could do all that stuff but it's not really necessary. 

Titled working/sporting dogs against top competition is where proof of breeding/lines etc all comes together to improve whatever breed is doing the job it's bred for. My opinion only.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I know... listen I looked into all the different show lines. Thats great at least the Germans are a lil better

Besides that I'm sure if he wanted to spend his time doing that stuff he would. Like i said he originally planned on breeding for police. So why would he waste his time going through getting titles for his dogs in agility and herding when they're gonna be trained to track drugs and take down criminals. As well as the fact that he's know starting to get some of his puppies into training to be help dogs for disabled children. Whats a herding or agility titles gonna be to a crippled child who just needs a best friend. 

It's one thing if you want a show or working dog.. you go to a breeder thats intot tha type of thing. When it comes down to it though whats really important is the health of the dog and the temperment of the parents. Which are all important for my brother with breeding. 

He's spending his time of the health and temperment of the breed. Everyone gets so caught up in titles and everything else they forget whats really important to people. They want a dog who will be a great pet, a part of the family, and live a long happy life. Best believe my brother makes sure that all of that will happen for the puppies he breeds and families.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

The king you have labeled as your fav is a pet quality long haired coat <which is a fault> red and black german showline that is over sized and of poor conformation. Gsds are a MEDIUM sized breed and I am guessing is a couple generations down from show working titled breedings bred by BYB/ pet suppliers, that is why this fellow was cut from the genetic pool of the litter as a gsd. The other two are not healthier in structure they are flat footed low whither and if they actually did work they would come up lame because their should assembly is horrible and would break down. Does he OFA elbows? These would not be able to have the extended trot needed for their original purpose. They are pets nothing more.

the other two you posted I hate to tell you are am bred showlines so yes he uses pet quality am breds too


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I can tell you for certain that my American line puppy isn't crippled  Believe me, I look and scrutinize very carefully for such things.

She's also one of the few dogs that showed interest in sheep at a party full of working line dogs. She's not without drive. As for your brothers dogs looking like those dogs from "back in the day"....working lines.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

What bothers me most is these are not even true king shepherds they are gsds that are not bred within standard. You do know that all you have to do is go to UKC and say I have a king shepherd let me register and they do it is not truly a recognised breed. IMO these are gsd and not even true kings from what I have studied.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Who knows. I give up. Seriously.. I'll be completely honest. If to be a good person I have to buy a GSD from someone that shows there dogs and they look anything like yours I would rather not get a GSD.. Guess I don't like GSDs. I like the long haired fluffy thing I just posted a pick of cuz in my eyes he's gorgeous. But if thats not what a GSD is supposed to look like then I don't want one.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Wow. Just wow.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yvonne, are you sure you're not mixing up the UKC and the Continental Kennel Club? I know the UKC considers White Shepherds as a separate breed, but they don't even accept Shilohs (neat reason why, too), let alone "King Shepherds."


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I was told someone had theirs registered with the UKC. Perhaps they had it backwards. It is not like the 20 mins I talked to them while they gushed over my german showline bitch they thought was a king too showed me they had much knowledge. I considered it true since UKC also puts championships on coated gsd without undercoat so much that the one I saw had a part line with the hair silky falling to each side like an afghan. As a gsd owner I am disapointed with what UKC tells people is ok to breed and purchase in my breed.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I too, am not a fan of most GSD UKC champions....but in other breeds, UKC is very important, and good to have around (APBT and Coonhounds come to mind).


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Xeph it's great your so into show dogs and all that but seriously you know nothing bout good dogs outside of standard. I just recently saw a dog you would love. A seeing eye dog GSD that my bf said was a NICE dog and looked great. I looked at it and thought it was the ugliest GSD I ever saw. Y? *cuz it's butt was like 5 inches from the ground *and I grew up around big GSDs that had straight backs and I could litteraly ride and lay on. I've grown up with king size GSDs that are great with kids and love thier families and have always been the perfect family dog. Not those ugly show GSDs that look nothing like what I consider a real GSD to be. Oh and I did meantion that he health test his dogs..the only thing he doesn't do is title them which isn't a problem unless you want to show your dog. If you want a working dog then his dogs would be absolutely fine. && i bet my brother probably has a dog from a breeder that you would find reputable cuz some of his dogs do have parents that have been shown so they can't be that far off standard.


I know Xeph didn't respond to this but I know her and I KNOW she would not like this eather. GSD's are NOT supposed to have weak rears that drag on the ground it's a shame those are the only dogs you think about as show dogs when there are SO many out there who are moderate and correct. 

Look up the sport called Schutzhund and tell your brother to train his dogs in that, it combines obedience, tracking, and bitework a good starting point to breeding working GSD's. I personally don't believe a breeder if they tell me their dogs are great, I have known too many sick, deformed, and weak dogs who's owners said "My dog is the best". But I WILL start to believe their dogs are great if several other people who are not their friends and family say they are great, Love is blind, "My dog's are the best" no, I need proof thats what trials are for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5cS0CxjBs


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yeah, I don't like an overdone GSD either.

By the way , regardless of the "slope" in an American dog's back...the back is still straight.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Honestly keechak I will mention it to him. I know he won't do agility or herding. I have a sister in law that's gonna be doing agility and herding with her little shepherd.. idk wut kind it is actually... kinda looks like yours but it's just black and white. I forget the name now lol. Gorgeous dog. But really he's not the type of perosn that would enjoy doing that with his dogs. I think Schutzhund would be something he would enjoy doing with his dogs. Besides that they have a GSD who's older who is probably from American lines that doesn't have such a bad sloped back.. and yes I know their backs aren't sloped.. I know someone said something to me earlier cuz I'm calling them straight backed and sloped back but the fact of the matter is it's easier to say that then to be like the one with the straight back that doesn't have a low butt rather then the one with the low butt lol. So sorry if I'm not using the correct terminoligy. && as for everyone thats caught up on the whole "king" thing.. i mite have been mispeaking. I don't think he refers to them as Kings. They're registered with AKC as just plain old regular GSDs. They're just bigger then normal breeding standard and I refer to them as Kings cuz thats just what I thought they were. I might be wrong on that. Sorry. 

I understand completely about the importance of doing something with your dogs when your breeding. It's important to have them involved in something.. out there showing or working and getting titles to prove that they're the best of the breed and that they deserve to be bred but like I said my brothers biggest concern really is health and temperment and his orginal goal was family pets and the breeding of police dogs. He's not looking to breed herding dogs or for his dogs to be the best in agility or anything. Thats why I think, if anything, he would probably only be interesting in doing Schutzhund.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Wow a lot has gone on since I've been gone! 

Yvonne, you're right, I do need to learn more about angulation. My dad had a working bred GSD from one of the top lines in Germany back in the day (he used to live in Europe) and as I was looking over those pictures he told me a little about angulation and such. He likes a really square dog with a fairly straight topline and only moderate angulation. I will admit this made me think that was the standard for well built dog, but reading up on it more has given me more information. I'm always open to learning more and looking at all the sides. I definately need to learn more about angulation and it's purposes and standards.

To me this guy seem to have too much of a slope:









And this is ideal:







s

xoxluvablexox, you're brother is doing the right thing by health testing, especially genetic testing and not breeding those that don't pass the standard (I think we can all agree on that at least?). I'm more into a standard sized dog instead of an overly large one and as I want a working dog, it would be important for me for the breeder to have titled parents. Also, the point of breeding is to produce dogs that better the breed. While having dogs with good temperament is one aspect of the GSD, by not titling and not improving the other qualities of the breed (i.e the loyalty, intelligence, etc that make the GSD able to do well in so many disciplines) then one is not truly bettering the breed. Just a thought and my opinion, no bashing intended 

Here's a dog that I think is beautiful. How does he look to you experts?:

http://www.ehretgsd.com/hutch.html

He isn't titled and that bothers me and would prevent me from looking into his pups, but looks wise he seems like a nice looking guy!


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

A major issue for non gsd people to grasp is that the gsd is an angulated trotter and what they perceive as sloping back and what rear angulation is and the difference when see a gsd in a three point show stack versus the dog in four point stand. They just cannot comprehend the differences and even it is hard for a new gsd person learning as well much less non gsd people.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't care for either of the above dogs (And it's not because they're not American). Both are showing some nasty structural faults.

Hutch comes from great working lines (Tiekerhook is widely known throughout the working line realm), but he himself is lackluster. No titles and poor structure.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Both are showing some nasty structural faults.


I'm definately going to need to get my self and edumacation on the GSD 'cause I thought they was purty 

I'm going to get involved with the local schutzhund club and hope they can educate me more.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Just make sure you do research on your own as well, and don't take everything everyone says as law. REALLY learn about structure, how it all works together, skeletal and muscular. Never settle for "As long as it can work, it's fine". Don't just accept "what beautiful side gait!" as law either.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

crzy_brunette77 said:


> To me this guy seem to have too much of a slope:


that looks like West German Show Lines and that dog in particular is ugly, the head is overdone, he is roached, tho he doesn't look well stacked eather. This is not how a west german show line is supposed to look.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

I don't know that much about GSD, but this is my understanding
This is a well bred GSD








this is a poorly bred GSD


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

That well bred boy looks beautiful to me!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Branko Salztalblick <3

The Salztalblick dogs have FABULOUS structure. Absolutely amazing. And they're 100% working lines. I'd LOVE a Salztalblick dog, but we can't afford to import.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

That was from the well bred vs. poorly bred thread
But even I can see that that is a nice dog


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Is that what that is? Ok I'll admit that's a gorgeous dog and it looks like his slope wouldn't be all too bad out of his little show stack he's doing. I think I like the coloring more then anything. Just a question, is it really all that hard to get dogs to stand like that... i always see people in dog shows fixing the way their dogs are standing and it looks like a pain but my mini poodle stands like that naturally and I bought him from a petstore(when I was 13, didn't know any better) so it's no like being a show dog was in his blood lol. 
Anyways, thats a German line correct? I think more then anything I like the German line the best. 

But just so I can explain something.. the dog I saw, the seeing eye dog which I was complaing about having the sloped back.. he was only a little bit worse then that. What got me was you see how that dog is stacked and everyone is saying that when they stand they look better and all that. The dog was WALKING like that. Like legit it couldn't get itself out of that position or something like it was stuck like that. How does a dog comfortably walk in that position..is that normal?


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

The first dog you posted is in three point show stand and is poor example either stacked badly or not the best example of a good german showline. The second you posted is standing almost square so his back does not look sloped but he would have some slope to him if he were photoed in a three point. Does this make sense? Look at my sig that bitch last photo of line is almost standing four footed instead of show see how level her back is? She is german showline.











another four footed:



Here is a bad stack about 2 years ago same bitch her rear legs are not placed correctly:










here she is at gawky 13 month old very ugly gangly age at sieger show in three point










this is one of my fav gsds and a great example of a correct mature structure


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Just a question, is it really all that hard to get dogs to stand like that... i always see people in dog shows fixing the way their dogs are standing and it looks like a pain


It's called stacking, and it's not a pain at all. Both my dogs are taught to tolerate hand stacking, but they also free stack.



> How does a dog comfortably walk in that position..is that normal?


Sounds like a dog with crappy structure to me.

Here's my American puppy stacked by me:


















And here she is free stacking (she set herself up and I didn't touch her):


















This is her at her most extreme, when she was going through a growth stage:









And here's how she looks just standing four square (it's an old picture, but she still looks this way if she stands four square):









I can make my German dog look all sorts of different ways too, just my manipulating him in a stack.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

it was not letting me post him let me see if another thread will work


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

That's a horrible stack of a lovely dog, lol.

But, I've noticed that Europeans in general do not stack with "flair" like the Americans do. Renaldo Arlett, no?


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

yes that is him but I will agree t disagree on stack proceedure.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

He's posting, all squished together, and he's going east west in the front x.x I can't say it's a particularly flattering picture.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

This has to be the worst stack I've ever seen:


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

If you notice camera angle is up and left what you see may not be as it appeared


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

This is one of those things that has VERY little to do with the stack. 99.9% of that dog's problem is that it's crippled. The structure is CRAP!

Absolutely WRETCHED. THAT is a puppy I pity.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

The thing I dont like about him in the pic is his pasterns are slightly sloped looking weak and I hate sloped weak pasterns.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Xeph said:


> This is one of those things that has VERY little to do with the stack. 99.9% of that dog's problem is that it's crippled. The structure is CRAP!
> 
> Absolutely WRETCHED. THAT is a puppy I pity.


Sad thing is I went on the breeders site and not only are all their other GSDs terribly built but they breed bulldogs and pugs as well!


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I have noticed alot of dogs built like the nightmare above coming from slavic countries and India as a major part of money making breeding.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I was just looking into something.. just cuz i was curious if I could find a breeder that breeds the Old Styled GSDs and has titles and health tets. Well I'm not having much luck but I was reading about Olderhill German Shepherds and I think the OP should look into that. They seem like the GSD you would like. They're working dogs, police work...actually one of there dogs was kept from being retired at the age of 10, which it is usually required for them to retire, because he was such a good working dog. They "straight backed" so that's what might really sell them for you. Good luck

http://www.olderhill.co.za/main.html


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't have much respect for a GSD breeder who also breeds wolfdogs (they cross their GSDs with "Canadian wolves" because they believe it cancels out hip problems or something). Quite a few of their GSDs (on the gallery page) also have a dip in their backs that I find unappealing.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

They are puppy mill even selling bloodhound doberman crosses and rescued dog that have been trained um yeah and they say the dogs work but none of them have proof in achievements or titles.

agreed about the wolf dog comment too


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Hate to be such a nay sayer, but they state so many things that are just based in plain old ignorance!


> Another result of this selection is that the health of these dogs is far better than that of GSDs selected for unnatural shapes.


Health is better in what regard? Proof to substantiate these claims?



> Olderhill german shepherds have a natural 'square' shape. They are flat-backed and their hind legs straight,


Being straight in the rear is NOT correct for this breed. Being too straight in the rear can and does lead to problems such as ACL tears and blown knees (there's a reason you don't see breesd like Chow Chows running agility).



> Their spines are flexible like a cat’s, and so can easily take the pressure of high jumps and hard landings. People with show-ring GSDs call these flat, flexible backs 'soft' and judge them to be a fault.


That's because the backs ARE soft and it IS a fault x.x



> They want their dogs to have sloped, rigid backs and don't realize that this causes their dogs' spines to jar when they land after jumping. They just know that their dogs get damaged by jumping and so avoid doing it as much as possible.


*sigh* More bologna



> The Olderhill german shepherds don’t suffer from hip problems because they absorb their food well.


What does this have to do with anything?! OFA results please x.x



> Their hind quarters are wide and powerful, and don’t degenerate after a few years because of pinched nerves in the spine.


That's great. Still has nothing to do with anything.



> We believe this to be the german shepherd dog's worst medical problem and in our experience 90% of all GSDs are euthanased because of this.


This is just plain laughable. This breed has it's health issues, but it also is full of dogs with temperament issues and owners/breeders that are irresponsible!



> They’re stable, confident dogs who know when to attack and when not.


This statement scares the crap out of me.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

crzy_brunette77 said:


> This has to be the worst stack I've ever seen:


Man, when GSDs go bad, they go BAD.


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## Settican (Apr 5, 2008)

I've met quite a few Olderhill GSDs over the years, and have only met one that I liked, for dogs that are supposedly bred for work, they had a serious lack of drive and horrible structure. Not to mention that their dogs "don't suffer from hip problems because they absorb their food well". The usual nonsense touted by breeders of "old fashioned GSDs"


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Gorgeous dog. But really he's not the type of perosn that would enjoy doing that with his dogs.


He doesn't have to, but if he found someone who would that would count. If you REALLY got into it and learned, and worked with a few of his dogs for him, or someone else, and they got titled, it would still count. At least I think it would. You see all the time on the shows on TV, this dog, owned by so-and-so, handled by so-and-so.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I just don't understand how any breeder can claim to be into the German Shepherd Dog, and not care a lick about its ability to perform.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

What activities do you do with you gsds? I tend sheep German style with my bitch. I love schutzhund.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Conformation, obedience, rally, and agility. I'd like to do some tracking, but can't find anybody out here to train with. Same for herding.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also just saying the OP is in Canada and the breeder suggested is in South Africa....


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

There is a lady that teaches herding AKC style near Winchester VA if you are near there and I know hundreds of others in VA used to live there many many years if you want help finding activities to do.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Also just saying the OP is in Canada and the breeder suggested is in South Africa....


Yea that's a little bit far...lol

I like these guys though:

http://www.worthykennels.com/index.html


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It wouldn't happen to be Susan Rhoades, would it?


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I have talked with the lady but I was not interested in AKC herding but I believe that is the name. It was years ago before I found a large flock of sheep to "tend" herd near my home. I have it in my notes and can look.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*whistles* Worthy has some nice lines

ETA: Yvonne, do you live in NY or NJ? The only two I know that do SV style herding are Geary Loff and Ulf Kintzel, the former having learned from the latter.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Dont know that kennel but very nice looking dogs for the quick look I took.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

tskoffina said:


> He doesn't have to, but if he found someone who would that would count. If you REALLY got into it and learned, and worked with a few of his dogs for him, or someone else, and they got titled, it would still count. At least I think it would. You see all the time on the shows on TV, this dog, owned by so-and-so, handled by so-and-so.


Yeah I know I see that all the time. Honestly when I get a puppy from him I'll have it invovled in things and I know I'll prob get titles for my dog. I also know that if I get a dog from him it's gonna be for free which means it'll probably be his choice of the litter and Imma have to stud the dog out. So when my dog has titles and is a stud dog for his little breeding program at least I'll be doing something good for him and making one of his dogs known as breed worthy. I can' take all of his dogs and do that I just don't have he time but if I can make a difference with my dog thats all that matters. 

Sorry bout the Olderhill thing.. I didn't really look through it but i've always considered police dogs to be the only real working GSDs.. and maybe the herding ones. Everything else just seems like it would be play time for the dogs..agility and all that. I just don't consider dogs that do that real working dogs. They obviously are doing more then just laying by your feet but they're not out there doing what they were bred to do.. if that makes sense. So if I was looking for a real working dog I would start out by looking at breeders that police get their dogs from and go from there. Obviously you still have to look into it to make sure that they're not just breeding police dogs but are also health testing and that they're dogs are good at what they're doing and prove themselves. 

Just curious but is it a fault if a GSD attacks a smaller animal.. lets say attacks and kills a goat? Obviously they're dogs and bigger ones at hhat so the prey drive is there but considering they're supposed be herding dogs and not kill animals like goats and sheep would that mean a dog that did that is a bad example of the breed?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

If someone is claiming to breed their dogs for police work then the LEAST they should be doing is Schutzhund with their dogs before breeding them to show that they are at least capable of performing in a basic police type situation, real police work is MUCH more strenuous than Schutzhund, but if you wont even do schutzhund with your dogs I wouldn't count on them to last thru the training phase of Police work. That Olderhill breeder does not look like they do the police work that they claim to do, they don't have any pictures of their dogs doing any sort of work, all they have is stories of dogs from the past.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Here's something that I found. Some of the parents of the puppies have titles some don't. Either way you might find something that you like there. 
http://www.k9one.com/puppies.html

or how bout these guys? 
http://www.zauberberg.com/puppies-for-sale.html-Arizona

oh and just noticed... the first puppy is sable. There you go 

These guys are in PA: http://www.vombauerhaus.com/puppies.html

or how bout these guys? http://www.alpenhofgsd.ca/


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Here's something that I found. Some of the parents of the puppies have titles some don't. Either way you might find something that you like there.
> http://www.k9one.com/puppies.html
> 
> or how bout these guys?
> ...


Don't buy from zauberberg. I did not look at the whole website, but they're charging over 2 grand for a 6 month old puppy that has already been NEUTERED!? Hell no would I ever do that, nor should ANY reputable GSD breeder, period.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Um where do you see that the dogs been neutered? It's funny cuz those dogs parents have been titled and that place specializes in training dogs and working them. They're doing everything right according to what everyone considers to be a good breeder. They even micro chip the puppies before they give them to their new owners. That's a big seller for people on this sight.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Um where do you see that the dogs been neutered? It's funny cuz those dogs parents have been titled and that place specializes in training dogs and working them. They're doing everything right according to what everyone considers to be a good breeder. They even micro chip the puppies before they give them to their new owners. That's a big seller for people on this sight.


I don't think you have any idea what people on this site consider a good breeder.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

As has been proven time and again


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Keechak said:


> If someone is claiming to breed their dogs for police work then the LEAST they should be doing is Schutzhund with their dogs before breeding them to show that they are at least capable of performing in a basic police type situation, real police work is MUCH more strenuous than Schutzhund, but if you wont even do schutzhund with your dogs I wouldn't count on them to last thru the training phase of Police work. That Olderhill breeder does not look like they do the police work that they claim to do, they don't have any pictures of their dogs doing any sort of work, all they have is stories of dogs from the past.


The whole thread is kinda spacy as the OP says he's gonna get a free dog and then probably go out and get some titles like they are leaves in the fall of the year. You just rake the titles up put-em in a basket and you have yourself a nice titled stud dog to breed all over the place. Which in turn will have GSDs that can be either police dogs or nice pets etc etc etc. I'm gone.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Actually I do. I know what a good breeder is thank you very much. Health tested dogs with titled parents. You can't sell the puppies before a certain age.. basically 8 weeks i think? sometimes even older depending on the breed I'm sure. Puppies must always be fixed before being sold unless they're being sold as show dogs or to another breeder. It's best to get your dog from a breeder that feeds raw because dog kibble isn't as healthy as people have been brain washed to think but a breeder that feeds holistic foods is just a step down. Um lets see, it's unhealthy for a dog to be fixed before a certain age, it stunts their growth which I understand is why DJEtzel is buggin bout a 6 month old puppy being neutered. Funny though considering it's bad for a breeder to sell an intact dog cause then a bad owner can breed the dog yet it's also bad for them to fix the dog at 6 months when the dog could have been sold months before that without a problem. Usually the ideal breeder will have a spay/neuter contract. 

You people think I don' know anything... like really. I spent five minutes on the comp and found 4 breeders that have titles and health tested GSDs invovled in police work and Schutzhund and it takes people months to find a good breeder. Seriously?

Oh and that breeder that is apparently horrible cuz of a fixed 6 month old puppy is gonna be training that dog before it even sells. So that money your paying is going into traing too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

No no no no no. I sure don't want any puppies I sell altered before age two! You have NO CLUE what you're talking about!


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

The k9one breeder has a "protection" dog for $22000 that has not one single title and is "is being trained in on and off-leash obedience and will be available as a level 2 or 3 protection." Whatever that means?? For that much cash he better have some reputable training, such as schutzhund and some titles! Their pet quality dogs (of all breeds including boxers, scotties, goldens, etc) are starting at $6500 and again have only basic obedience!?!?! They have a Yorkie Schnauzer cross for $6500!!!!! BADBADBAD

Vom Bauerhaus is breeding their females to dogs that have titles yes (such as SG Nathan Vom Fegelhof, SchH3, KKL1) but their own dogs don't seem to have any titles. Also their website is not very informative for me to make any further judgement.

Alpenhof looks okay from my quick and unexperienced look, although I see no major working titles that would catch my eye and make me want a puppy from them. 

Microchipping is the last thing I really care about in my breeders. I can do that myself at my vets for $60. That's not a sure sign of a good quality breeder, IMO. It's good that they do it, but says nothing about their breeding program.



xoxluvablexox said:


> Actually I do. I know what a good breeder is thank you very much. Health tested dogs with titled parents. You can't sell the puppies before a certain age.. basically 8 weeks i think? sometimes even older depending on the breed I'm sure. Puppies must always be fixed before being sold unless they're being sold as show dogs or to another breeder. It's best to get your dog from a breeder that feeds raw because dog kibble isn't as healthy as people have been brain washed to think but a breeder that feeds holistic foods is just a step down. Um lets see, it's unhealthy for a dog to be fixed before a certain age, it stunts their growth which I understand is why DJEtzel is buggin bout a 6 month old puppy being neutered. Funny though considering it's bad for a breeder to sell an intact dog cause then a bad owner can breed the dog yet it's also bad for them to fix the dog at 6 months when the dog could have been sold months before that without a problem. Usually the ideal breeder will have a spay/neuter contract.
> 
> You people think I don' know anything... like really. I spent five minutes on the comp and found 4 breeders that have titles and health tested GSDs invovled in police work and Schutzhund and it takes people months to find a good breeder. Seriously?
> 
> Oh and that breeder that is apparently horrible cuz of a fixed 6 month old puppy is gonna be training that dog before it even sells. So that money your paying is going into traing too.


A fixed dog is one that is limited in terms of what it can do in the show world. For instance, in AKC conformation shows, your dog can't be fixed. So apart from the growth stunting, etc issues with fixing a 6 month old, a buyer that wants a dog to compete with in certain disciplines will not be interested in this dog.

Also, if you define a good breeder as health tested with titled parents, then by your own definition your brother (I think that was who you were referring to?) who health tests but doesn't title isn't a good breeder then even by your definition?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

why don't you guys post links to working breeders that you consider good for luvable to see what you mean instead of just telling them. It's easier to show sometimes rather than just tell. How about Trents breeder? how about Eichenluft? ect. I would help but my dial up wont let me search websites that fast.

I personally wouldn't totally dismiss the vom bauerhaus even tho their bitches arn't titled they at least have lots of photos of them working, I think they are worth a second look but I wouldn't consider them the cream of the crop eather. Like CB said theirs not really enough information on their website to call them bad or good.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Xeph said:


> No no no no no. I sure don't want any puppies I sell altered before age two! You have NO CLUE what you're talking about!


No you just don't knnow how to read xeph. I said that if you fix a dog before a certain age that it stunts their growth. Yeah well if you want me to make myself clearer. Male dogs shouldn't be fixed before the age of 2. Female dogs can be fixed younger then that because after the age of 2 it ups their risk of getting certain kinds of cancers. to b completely honest I don't find a need to fix male dogs at all but if I had to fix my male dog it would NOT be before the age of 2. Try to tell that to any breeder though and they'll be like nope not selling you a dog cuz you want to keep it intact and god knows your just gonna become a bak yard breeder cuz I know you wanting to keep your dog intact must really no have anything to do with health..bad bad person. 
&& I also said that most ideal breeders will have a spay/neuter contract rather then fixin the puppies b4 they sell.

Like really I would love to see where you GSD people go your dogs from so I can go on the websites and see whats so wonderful about them. Doubt I'll be that impressed but I just wanna see what you guys find important in a breeder.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> No you just don't knnow how to read xeph. I said that if you fix a dog before a certain age that it stunts their growth. Yeah well if you want me to make myself clearer. Male dogs shouldn't be fixed before the age of 2. Female dogs can be fixed younger then that because after the age of 2 it ups their risk of getting certain kinds of cancers. to b completely honest I don't find a need to fix male dogs at all but if I had to fix my male dog it would NOT be before the age of 2. *Try to tell that to any breeder though and they'll be like nope not selling you a dog cuz you want to keep it intact and god knows your just gonna become a bak yard breeder cuz I know you wanting to keep your dog intact must really no have anything to do with health..bad bad person.*
> && I also said that most ideal breeders will have a spay/neuter contract rather then fixin the puppies b4 they sell.


It is my opinion that a breeder should be able to trust their gut, if they are selling to someone who has a history of working with their dogs competing and owning intact animals without breeding (or without bad breeding) and the potential buyer has shown a great love and inerest in the betterment of the breed, they(the breeder) should be able to take a chance with a person like that. And I know quite a few working breeders who sell their puppies on breeding contracts to working homes.

But if the breeder doesn't get a good feeling from the buyer then they shouldn't let them have a puppy plain and simple neutered or not.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

These guys are the ones I mentioned above and are a good kennel:

http://www.worthykennels.com/

Notice the titles their own dogs have (for instance SG Athos vom haus Sevens, their male, has SchH3 meaning he has completed level 3 Schutzhund), he's been extensively health tested, has proven progeny that back up his good genetics and is well put together. He also comes from generations of similarly excellent dogs. So this kennel is considered a good working dog kennel because it is breeding a health tested and truly well titled dog (so not just a few basic titles like BH or things like CGC that are good to have but not truly indicative of breeding worth) from a generation of dogs that are similar. They are also reasonable in pricing. They have a beautiful female for sale with great genetics, health tested, not fixed and not started on any training but built mentally and physically to be a working for for $1000. Compare that to $22000 for a dog with just basic obediance!

lovable, here's a useful website to help you better evaluate what titles are significant and which ones are: not http://www.workingdogs.com/working_titles.htm

PS--can you tell I want Worthy's Quedesh? For $1000 and her potential, she's looking mighty fine...


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Actually I do. I know what a good breeder is thank you very much. Health tested dogs with titled parents. You can't sell the puppies before a certain age.. basically 8 weeks i think? sometimes even older depending on the breed I'm sure. Puppies must always be fixed before being sold unless they're being sold as show dogs or to another breeder. It's best to get your dog from a breeder that feeds raw because dog kibble isn't as healthy as people have been brain washed to think but a breeder that feeds holistic foods is just a step down. Um lets see, it's unhealthy for a dog to be fixed before a certain age, it stunts their growth which I understand is why DJEtzel is buggin bout a 6 month old puppy being neutered. Funny though considering it's bad for a breeder to sell an intact dog cause then a bad owner can breed the dog yet it's also bad for them to fix the dog at 6 months when the dog could have been sold months before that without a problem. Usually the ideal breeder will have a spay/neuter contract.
> 
> You people think I don' know anything... like really. I spent five minutes on the comp and found 4 breeders that have titles and health tested GSDs invovled in police work and Schutzhund and it takes people months to find a good breeder. Seriously?
> 
> Oh and that breeder that is apparently horrible cuz of a fixed 6 month old puppy is gonna be training that dog before it even sells. So that money your paying is going into traing too.


You're focusing on all the details without thinking about WHY those details indicate a reputable breeder. 

For example, raw feeding and limited vaccines are HUGE in Tollers. I've seen several breeders have it in their contracts that their dogs must be raw fed and on a limited vaccine schedule (while I personally agree with the practices, I'm not a fan of it being required in the contract). But in Dalmatians, most of them have to be on a certain brand of kibble because of their particular biochemistry. While I'm not a fan of huge breeding kennels, you do see them some times in some breeds and it can be done responsibly and in those cases it's cost prohibitive to feed exclusively raw. 

Sterilization protocols are changing. 6 months to a year used to be regular, then the anesthetic technology advanced so it was possible to put baby puppies under for the operation. New research is showing there are health benefits to leaving males intact, I'm not totally certain on females. The 6 month $2000 puppy that's neutered is a problem because he can't be bred, and protection sport is a major contender in proving breeding stock, plus in male dogs neutered too young there is an increase in ACL and CCL tears.

You need to know WHY these things make breeders responsible, because someone can be doing all the right things and still be breeding dogs that are totally wrong for your household.




xoxluvablexox said:


> Try to tell that to any breeder though and they'll be like nope not selling you a dog cuz you want to keep it intact and god knows your just gonna become a bak yard breeder cuz I know you wanting to keep your dog intact must really no have anything to do with health..bad bad person.
> && I also said that most ideal breeders will have a spay/neuter contract rather then fixin the puppies b4 they sell.


I will be going to a breeder for my next performance puppy. If I get a male puppy, I will be keeping him intact. I don't anticipate any problems getting a puppy, because I've researched my opinion and can back it up with coherent explanation and facts. (Read: learn to spell the word "and.") 




crzy_brunette77 said:


> PS--can you tell I want Worthy's Quedesh? For $1000 and her potential, she's looking mighty fine...


Do you want a working dog? Or a pet dog from working lines?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Try to tell that to any breeder though and they'll be like nope not selling you a dog cuz you want to keep it intact and god knows your just gonna become a bak yard breeder cuz I know you wanting to keep your dog intact must really no have anything to do with health..bad bad person.


I'd be able to take you a bit more seriously if you would spell properly >.<

Also, the breeder I'm hoping to get my next service dog from Eichenluft German Shepherds knows good and well that I do not plan on neutering my dog before the age of 2! It's NOT that hard! MANY breeders actually follow such a philosophy and PREFER it (in my breed).



> A fixed dog is one that is limited in terms of what it can do in the show world.


Then you say "a dog on limited registration". My issue isn't reading comprehension, it's YOUR issue with typing and not being clear! "Fixed" to 99.9% of the populous means spayed or neutered

You went and edited after (or while) I responded.

While this isn't a breeder I'd buy from, it's more because she doesn't have the style of dog I care for, as opposed to being irresponsible.

Wildhaus German Shepherds

Here's another
Adler Stein German Shepherds

and another!
Kennel Salztalblick


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I
> 
> Then you say "a dog on limited registration". My issue isn't reading comprehension, it's YOUR issue with typing and not being clear! "Fixed" to 99.9% of the populous means spayed or neutered
> 
> You went and edited after (or while) I responded.


Huh? Is this directed towards me? I'm confuzzled? What I meant by that is that by neutering/spaying at a young age, not only are you messing up the dogs health, but certain buyers who want an unaltered dog for good reasons will be dettered. Sorry if it didn't make much sense when I first wrote it lol


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

No, crzy, it was directed at luvable, but I got names and quotes all mixed up, and read what you wrote wrong >.<

*sigh*


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Ha it's okay this thread is getting to be a bit of a fiasco.

luvable, do you see any difference between the kennels Xeph has put up and the ones you have? I'm curious to hear your opinion.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks for posting some sites, Xeph! I really like this girl. I like that size, that look (nice head), and I'm fond of the bi-colors as well. She sounds awesome -- lots of drive but the ability to settle down and be a great house dog. I'd like to get into Schutzhund someday (not anytime soon; my current home and situation wouldn't be great for a big, active dog), and I'd love a dog like that. Look at all of the SchH titles in her pedigree!



xoxluvablexox said:


> Like really I would love to see where you GSD people go your dogs from so I can go on the websites and see whats so wonderful about them. Doubt I'll be that impressed but I just wanna see what you guys find important in a breeder.


Sadly, crzy_brunette77, based on that quote, it sounds like luvable is predisposed to dislike any breeders posted by "you GSD people."


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would like a bit more rear on Kadja, and a better front, but she is very pretty.

Ikon and Heist are much more what I prefer structure wise and I think Indis and Jinx are the nicest females she's got structure wise


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I really like Ikon and Indis, too. I don't know much about GSD structure, but they look like they could really move and work well. Also, I must say that even though the GSD threads here often turn into arguments, I like reading them -- I've been learning a lot more about the breed thanks to all of these threads.


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> ... the GSD threads here often turn into arguments...


LOL I'm learning that firsthand!


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Because the breed is in so much trouble and no one will agree on anything or work on it together for the breed.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Sorry *insert non sucky blush smiley here*

I just can't let ignorance go unanswered and have people thinking said ignorance is correct!

BTW, the Alpenhof dogs are NICE, but you have to go to the PDB to see the titles.

Zasara, for example, has her HGH (she couldn't have her V rating without it).


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## crzy_brunette77 (May 19, 2009)

I LIKE the arguments actually. It means people care and are trying to educate others. I don't think anyone was mean or rude, just opinionated and trying to educate.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh yeah, most of the time the arguments are pretty civil. I like it when people post pictures to back up their points, too -- it really helps to be able to see what makes a good dog, because all the talk of backs and stacks and fronts and rears and angles can get confusing!


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Oh! The Saltzalblick dogs are BEAUTIFUL! 

That's all I can contribute to the topic, sorry. =P


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Eichenluft has a Paska daughter, Upsy, that I met. She's not my kind of dog (much to my dismay) but her temperament is lovely.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Keechak said:


> If someone is claiming to breed their dogs for police work then the LEAST they should be doing is Schutzhund with their dogs before breeding them to show that they are at least capable of performing in a basic police type situation, real police work is MUCH more strenuous than Schutzhund, but if you wont even do schutzhund with your dogs I wouldn't count on them to last thru the training phase of Police work. That Olderhill breeder does not look like they do the police work that they claim to do, they don't have any pictures of their dogs doing any sort of work, all they have is stories of dogs from the past.


I really doubt there's going to be a long line of K-9 officers/handlers at this posters brothers doorstep, begging for a working pup out of untested, oversized, flat backed, fluffy king shepherds


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

This thread has gone from informative to amusing. Yvonne is correct.. you cannot get everyone on the same page to work for the better of this breed. 

FWIW I just got a puppy from a good breeder. She does not have a website and she is completely understated but she is good. The lines are West German but she hates the banana back so works to avoid it. The mother of my puppy is a nice, solid, lovely dog. She is tested (CERF and OFA) and has her BH and her CD. The Grandmother of my puppy has her Sch. 3 and was approved for breeding (German). She is 10 and sound. Says a lot. 

The litter from this breeder is her Q litter so she has had 17 litters since 1982 when she started. ALL the maternal line dogs have been tested and titled. She rattled off the titles.. and she had done a LOT of serious training. I asked about this, she did not volunteer it. IF this puppy turns out she will be bred.. and this breeder will mentor me thru two litters. I am hoping is works out (and sometimes scared that it will!). 

My point is this... I met this breeder thru my dog club and the local Schutzhund club. I really liked the bitch she had in hand for a variety of reasons... and so we started to talk. That was 3 years before she had this litter. 

She is an honest breeder. Finding a good and honest breeder is a lot harder than just finding a breeder (even one with titled dogs). In all honesty, if you are getting a GSD you really want an honest breeder. When you start to look you will be amazed at the talk. 

It is important to GO TO THE KENNEL. Make a planned visit and then make an unplanned one. What you see at one visit may be very different than what you see at the other visit. 

I prefer German lines to American lines. I say that while my 3 year old American line spay is sitting here. She is a good dog.. but the difference between her and my last GSD and now this puppy is night and day (both former dog and puppy are W. German). The German's require working titles before the dog can be accepted for breeding. There are no show GSD's that do not work. I believe that system helps the German dogs be better all the way round. I am not faulting the heck out of Atka, my American bred dog.. but she is not typical and she is a herding machine. I have taken her out and I cannot afford to pursue herding with her. 

Remember something in all of this.. the breed was developed to herd livestock and do so as tenders. To herd these dogs are designed to trot... all day long. This means they keep the flock in an area and out of other areas (the dogs work like a fence). They also must be able to drive and do other herding work because that is what the job entails. My last dog herded cattle on my dairy farm. She was good at her job. I never took her to a competition as I had a farm to run. I did not care.. she did what I needed.  

And ultimately, that is the beauty of the GSD. The well structured (physically and mentally) GSD is up for a variety of tasks and, if you do your homework, will be just what you need.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

> She is an honest breeder. Finding a good and honest breeder is a lot harder than just finding a breeder (even one with titled dogs). In all honesty, if you are getting a GSD you really want an honest breeder. When you start to look you will be amazed at the talk.


Amen!!!



> The German's require working titles before the dog can be accepted for breeding. There are no show GSD's that do not work. I believe that system helps the German dogs be better all the way round.


ditto


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

After reading this thread, I learned alot.lol. For my next GSD, it will probably be from West German Showlines, maybe working lines, but I am not sure what working lines.

But I used to be all for straight backed and such, but I actually read and talked to people and started to see the breed differently(in a good way.) I have learned so much.

I love threads like these, especially of a breed I love and admire.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Actually I do. I know what a good breeder is thank you very much. Health tested dogs with titled parents. You can't sell the puppies before a certain age.. basically 8 weeks i think? sometimes even older depending on the breed I'm sure. Puppies must always be fixed before being sold unless they're being sold as show dogs or to another breeder. It's best to get your dog from a breeder that feeds raw because dog kibble isn't as healthy as people have been brain washed to think but a breeder that feeds holistic foods is just a step down. Um lets see, it's unhealthy for a dog to be fixed before a certain age, it stunts their growth which I understand is why DJEtzel is buggin bout a 6 month old puppy being neutered. Funny though considering it's bad for a breeder to sell an intact dog cause then a bad owner can breed the dog yet it's also bad for them to fix the dog at 6 months when the dog could have been sold months before that without a problem. Usually the ideal breeder will have a spay/neuter contract.
> 
> You people think I don' know anything... like really. I spent five minutes on the comp and found 4 breeders that have titles and health tested GSDs invovled in police work and Schutzhund and it takes people months to find a good breeder. Seriously?
> 
> Oh and that breeder that is apparently horrible cuz of a fixed 6 month old puppy is gonna be training that dog before it even sells. So that money your paying is going into traing too.


 
A good breeder does NOT have pups fixed before placing, they sell on a spay/nueter (limited) contract.

You left out:

Expects pups to be ruturned to THEM if the puppy buyer can't keep them

Breeds to STANDARD

Breed to IMPROVE the breed, there for will match desireable traits to improve weaknesses in their lines. 

Raw vs Kibble is not an indicator

Not all show (or work) breeders are GOOD breeders, in fact I've seen people that show that run puppy mills or are horders. 

The fixed 6 month old doesn't bother me, it could be a rehome or a dog that washed out or had to be nuetered doe to a health condition.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> It is important to GO TO THE KENNEL. Make a planned visit and then make an unplanned one. What you see at one visit may be very different than what you see at the other visit.


Very important does not even cover it, for me it was always an absolute must. Except I did unplanned visit 1st, and a planned visit if I liked what I saw. 



> She is an honest breeder. Finding a good and honest breeder is a lot harder than just finding a breeder (even one with titled dogs). In all honesty, if you are getting a GSD you really want an honest breeder. When you start to look you will be amazed at the talk.


It's mind boggling the many breeders that have the "Tell you what you want to hear" program. Do homework before talking to any breeders (joining DF is a start)

If you were to call me and ask for a pup/dog within 5 minutes of our conversation I will know exactly what you want in a dog and miraculously I will have that pup/dog somewhere in my kennel at a hefty price. I will explain to you that it will take time for pup/dog to do things that you want but all will come to pass and then I will also sell you some swampland in Florida where you and your dog will live happily ever after.

Now you may think the above a funny story but this is the kind of bulls*** that is spread every day. Some people when buying a cute puppy enter the world of stupid.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Before purchasing Questa with leasing rights for breeding retained by the breeder (with a joint agreement with regards to breeding as she is my mentor) I looked at a few kennels both near and far. I OWN Questa.. breeding rights are pending testing etc and the dog being a worthwhile breeding prospect. In that process I met TWO breeders I liked a lot and ended up getting a puppy from one of those. 

One of the kennels, which shall remain nameless, had a wonderful contract, sounded like a real working kennel and the pictures of the dogs were breathtaking.. as well as photos of the place.. on line. They sounded like the dogs came first before the money too. The prices were quite high.

I got there and the dogs were over thin (and I know breeders who keep their dogs thin.. but this was excessive), the dogs were not in separate runs but all turned out in a large area, there were several intact males in crates because they were aggressive. There was a bitch in heat.... and so any other intact males were also in crates.. and all the non breeding dogs (about 15 or so) were intact. Over all the grounds were not kept up (not like the photos on the website) and the entire property looked like it had.. well... "gone to the dogs.." 

...and when I said I discussed a potential breeding quality puppy the breeder (surprise surprise) had one there for a large price and wanted to co own at that price. The kennel was truly in it for money and, with all the dogs there, needed the money too. Sadly, the outward appearance of the place reflected this. 

There are a LOT of places like this one. Some better kept than others. They are very commercial which, in and of itself is not bad, but which are in it for money. While being a commercial breeder is not always bad, the push to sell because it is a business can ultimately match the buyer with the wrong puppy. 

It is also, as WVasko noted, VERY difficult to walk away when a puppy is clmbing in your lap loving the heck out of you. I walked... but I will never forget that male puppy from this place that climbed in my lap and could not get enough of me. LOL

FWIW I just found out that both reservations on Questa's sister fell thru and her sister is now available and could be a coat... (so not a breeding prospect). 

One of the pitfalls that scares me in breeding is puppy reservations falling through.... and it is a reality of breeding.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

crzy_brunette77 said:


> Also, if you define a good breeder as health tested with titled parents, then by your own definition your brother (I think that was who you were referring to?) who health tests but doesn't title isn't a good breeder then even by your definition?


No your correct in that. I don't think he's a perfect breeder nor is he even close to the best. My perfect breeder first of all health test and titles their dogs. Not only do they show their dogs but they have dogs invovled in agility esc. They feed their dogs raw or at least a hollistic brand of dog food. Their puppies come with a spay/neuter contract. They microchip the dogs with their information rather then the owners info so that if the dog is ever lost they're contacted first. They take ALL puppies bak from owners that can't care for their dogs anymore. I'm sure there's more.. like how the website is set up, where the dogs are kept(in home or out in a kennel) esc.

Find me a breeder like that and I'll spend 2,000 on a dog otherwise I'll rescue all my dogs. I don't fight with my brother about his breeding cuz he does health test and he keeps track of all his puppies thru a facebook where all the owners post piks of heir puppies and keep him updated and if they ever choice to get rid of the dog they MUST be returned to my brother so none of the puppies he breeds will ever end up out on the streets or in a shelter. I would never buy a dog from him but if I get a dog for free then whatever. If I have to stud the dog out I will make sure it's titled before I let him do so. End of story. His dogs are great pet dogs but they're not show dogs. I don't think he's a horrible breeder or even bad by any means. He's just mid grade. Compared to other breeders I think he's a fine breeder for someone to get a family dog from. If your into the whole show seen obviously he's not good to go to by any means.

Sorry about my typing. I'm someone that text alot so when I type out a word on the comp somtimes I just do my whole texting thing becuz I hav a phone with a keyboard and I type like a mile a min. It takes me bout 2 min to type out everything I've written on this forum so sometimes I mispell and don't make that much sense. I'm one of those people that like to get somenthings done quick even if it's not always done correctly.

What do you guys think of this breeder? http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/index.html


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Um where do you see that the dogs been neutered? It's funny cuz those dogs parents have been titled and that place specializes in training dogs and working them. They're doing everything right according to what everyone considers to be a good breeder. They even micro chip the puppies before they give them to their new owners. That's a big seller for people on this sight.


vance Vom zaber-whatever is 6 months and neutered. 

You think all of those parents have been titled? It looks like they're only putting BHs on the bitches, probably because it's the easiest to do. That proves VERY little as a title. It's like having an RN on a bitch. Doesn't say much. And no, being microchipped before they leave isn't a big seller- the dogs' health is. We can all get a microchip from a vet easiliy.



xoxluvablexox said:


> Actually I do. I know what a good breeder is thank you very much. Health tested dogs with titled parents. You can't sell the puppies before a certain age.. basically 8 weeks i think? sometimes even older depending on the breed I'm sure. Puppies must always be fixed before being sold unless they're being sold as show dogs or to another breeder. It's best to get your dog from a breeder that feeds raw because dog kibble isn't as healthy as people have been brain washed to think but a breeder that feeds holistic foods is just a step down. Um lets see, it's unhealthy for a dog to be fixed before a certain age, it stunts their growth which I understand is why DJEtzel is buggin bout a 6 month old puppy being neutered. Funny though considering it's bad for a breeder to sell an intact dog cause then a bad owner can breed the dog yet it's also bad for them to fix the dog at 6 months when the dog could have been sold months before that without a problem. Usually the ideal breeder will have a spay/neuter contract.
> 
> You people think I don' know anything... like really. I spent five minutes on the comp and found 4 breeders that have titles and health tested GSDs invovled in police work and Schutzhund and it takes people months to find a good breeder. Seriously?
> 
> Oh and that breeder that is apparently horrible cuz of a fixed 6 month old puppy is gonna be training that dog before it even sells. So that money your paying is going into traing too.


You have no idea. There's NOTHING wrong with breeders selling intact "unfixed" animals, and they always do, that's the point. To keep it healthy. The just sell on a limited registration to keep people from breeding, or won't register the dog until it's fixed. Some breeders (good breeders) don't even make you get the dog spayed/neutered at all, and there's nothing wrong with that. 

It takes people months to find a good breeder because they know what to look for. You found a bunch of [email protected]$$ breeders that don't know what they're doing. And I bet I could train that 6 month old puppy better than it comes for 10x cheaper, AND keep him intact while doing so. 



xoxluvablexox said:


> No you just don't knnow how to read xeph. I said that if you fix a dog before a certain age that it stunts their growth. Yeah well if you want me to make myself clearer. Male dogs shouldn't be fixed before the age of 2. Female dogs can be fixed younger then that because after the age of 2 it ups their risk of getting certain kinds of cancers. to b completely honest I don't find a need to fix male dogs at all but if I had to fix my male dog it would NOT be before the age of 2. Try to tell that to any breeder though and they'll be like nope not selling you a dog cuz you want to keep it intact and god knows your just gonna become a bak yard breeder cuz I know you wanting to keep your dog intact must really no have anything to do with health..bad bad person.
> && I also said that most ideal breeders will have a spay/neuter contract rather then fixin the puppies b4 they sell.
> 
> Like really I would love to see where you GSD people go your dogs from so I can go on the websites and see whats so wonderful about them. Doubt I'll be that impressed but I just wanna see what you guys find important in a breeder.



You're so confused. There is not a major year mark for dogs to be spayed or neutered. It's whenever they finish growing/maturing, which is different for every breed. A chihuahua could be neutered at 6 months with no ill effects (a MALE, at that!) while a GSD has a very high likelihood of developing bone and joint issues from the same situation that was safe for another dog. 

Many great breeders have NO spay/neuter contract, believe it or not, and many will sell to you (like stated above) even if you don't want to get them fixed. Because they understand where you're coming from and the breed. 

These are a few good breeders around me, that I would feel comfortable buying a GSD from. They aren't what's right for me, but they are good breeders, nonetheless- 

http://www.spartanville.com/contracts.html
http://www.24kgsd.com/index.html
http://www.wildhauskennels.com/

ETA; I don't really like that new breeder you posted. They have a lot of false information about food and kibble, and include vegatables in their "raw diet" which I'm not fond of and there's really no point for. I also couldn't find any kind of health guarantee which I wouldn't buy without.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> What do you guys think of this breeder? http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/index.html


I really like some of their dogs, they seem to be all over the place as far as quality tho, some are very nice some arn't.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> . And no, being microchipped before they leave isn't a big seller- the dogs' health is. We can all get a microchip from a vet easiliy.


The dogs health is the most important thing, I agree with that. But I also respect a breeder that has the puppies they breed as the first thing on their mind. Microchipin those puppies show that once the puppy leaves the home the breeder still takes responsability for them which they should becuz they were the ones that brought them into the world. 



DJEtzel said:


> You have no idea. There's NOTHING wrong with breeders selling intact "unfixed" animals, and they always do, that's the point. To keep it healthy. The just sell on a limited registration to keep people from breeding, or won't register the dog until it's fixed. Some breeders (good breeders) don't even make you get the dog spayed/neutered at all, and there's nothing wrong with that.


Actually there is. If a breeder just goes and sells puppies without concerning themselves with with what happens to those puppies after they're sold I consider it a problem. A breeder should make sure that any pet quality puppies will be fixed. Obviously not if the breeder is selling it to someone that is going to show their dog or have their dog involved in something that the dog needs to be intact for. All good breeders should sell their dogs on a spay/nueter contract except on those cases. 




DJEtzel said:


> You're so confused. There is not a major year mark for dogs to be spayed or neutered. It's whenever they finish growing/maturing, which is different for every breed. A chihuahua could be neutered at 6 months with no ill effects (a MALE, at that!) while a GSD has a very high likelihood of developing bone and joint issues from the same situation that was safe for another dog.


No their is. Most if not all large dogs don't mature till the age of two. Smaller dogs at the age of 1. I know that. You assume I don't know that and I just have time to sit here and put in every little detail about what I know about these things. Obviously there are certain breeds that mature at a different rate because of what breed they are rather then by the size. That makes a lot of sense too, no real surprise there. && can you tell me why GSDs have so many issues with their bones and joints. Maybe it has something to do with the standard breeders breed them to. Hmmm. 



DJEtzel said:


> Many great breeders have NO spay/neuter contract, believe it or not, and many will sell to you (like stated above) even if you don't want to get them fixed. Because they understand where you're coming from and the breed.
> 
> These are a few good breeders around me, that I would feel comfortable buying a GSD from. They aren't what's right for me, but they are good breeders, nonetheless-
> 
> ...


No good breeder in my opinion shouldn't have one. A good breeder should know that the puppies they are breeding aren't gonna be used to breed by anyone unless they are a breeder or showing..esc their dogs. If they're selling pet quality puppies, which I'm sure every good breeder does because not every pup in the litter is gonna be good for anything more then that, they should at least have a spay/neuter contract on those dogs. 



DJEtzel said:


> ETA; I don't really like that new breeder you posted. They have a lot of false information about food and kibble, and include vegatables in their "raw diet" which I'm not fond of and there's really no point for. I also couldn't find any kind of health guarantee which I wouldn't buy without.


I'm sure they have a health guarentee. As for the kind of raw food they have.. they feed them vegies.. wow thats terrible. It's still probably a better diet then any kibble you could feed them. I don't see those as being reasons not to like them. First off I understand the health guarentee is important and something you shouldn't buy a puppy without but on the other hand I'm sure if you personally asked them they would inform you that they do have one. Other then that there has to be something more important that turns you off from them? Like their dogs don't have enough titles or important ones at that.. or you don't like the way the dogs look? I'm looking for a legit reason why you don't think they're good.



Keechak said:


> I really like some of their dogs, they seem to be all over the place as far as quality tho, some are very nice some arn't.


Just curious, if you feel like it...you rlly don't have to, could you list which ones you like and which you don't. I just want to see what the difference between good vs bad quality GSDs look like.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> can you tell me why GSDs have so many issues with their bones and joints. Maybe it has something to do with the standard breeders breed them to. Hmmm.


Uhhhh, it's because they're an unhealthy BREED. Working line dogs aren't any less prone to bone and joint issues than American dogs. And really? Do you really want to bring up joint and bone issues when people are breeding mammoth GSDs? Really?



> Actually there is. If a breeder just goes and sells puppies without concerning themselves with with what happens to those puppies after they're sold I consider it a problem.


Where are you getting this fodder?

If someone came to me, and had years and years and years of experience keeping intact animals and had no issues at all, most likely I would have no issue selling them a dog with the caveat that it never be bred. My personal feeling is, why speuter if you don't have to?

I'll be selling pet puppies on speuter contracts, but if someone can prove to me they can keep an intact dog out of trouble, by all means, don't alter it! It's quite an unnecessary overall (though I can and do CERTAINLY see the benefits in bitches)!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Geeze more common sense, Where is this stuff coming from. Unnecessary surgery not being done, what a concept. Especially in this day and age where surgery is the miraculous cure all, from curing problems to cosmetic eyelids to butts. I actually expect to hear botox for dogs one of these days.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

It used to be that people bought male dogs because you did not have to have them fixed. I remember this all too well (and WVasko probably does too). A bitch OTOH was more of an issue because, back then, it was not uncommon for dogs to run loose. If you had a bitch in heat you had a yard full of male dogs and it was difficult to keep her out of the 'action' so to speak. 

Now with all the speutering and leash laws much less of an issue. 

I will say that in Europe speutering is not nearly frequently done.. and I do not believe they have huge pet overpopulation issues. Jus' sayin'


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It's illegal to speuter without a medical reason (such as Pyo) in Sweden.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> It used to be that people bought male dogs because you did not have to have them fixed. I remember this all too well (and WVasko probably does too). A bitch OTOH was more of an issue because, back then, it was not uncommon for dogs to run loose. If you had a bitch in heat you had a yard full of male dogs and it was difficult to keep her out of the 'action' so to speak.
> 
> Now with all the speutering and leash laws much less of an issue.
> 
> I will say that in Europe speutering is not nearly frequently done.. and I do not believe they have huge pet overpopulation issues. Jus' sayin'


We didn't even fix our Velociraptors back then, It was a simpler world. (until the meteor hit) and yes I was premature and got here before the meteor.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Uhhhh, it's because they're an unhealthy BREED. Working line dogs aren't any less prone to bone and joint issues than American dogs. And really? Do you really want to bring up joint and bone issues when people are breeding mammoth GSDs? Really?
> 
> 
> Where are you getting this fodder?
> ...


WHo made the breed unhealthy? The breeders breeding them. They didn't just start out with all those issues. People bred the dog into an unhealhty dog beause of the way they bred them, I'm no talking about byb. I'm talking bout legit breeders that breed them for looks rather for whats really healthy for the dog. Mammoth GSDS aren't really a problem when youn think about it. How many huge dogs are there in this world, like the Saint Bernard and those giant sheep dogs and nobody ever says..oh these dogs need to be shrunk because they're size is unhealthy/ Size isn't an issue. It's when you breed dogs to have unaural porportions like having a lower back end and a higher front. That could obviously cause problems. Your messing around with the dogs bone structure in an unatural way. Animals don't evolve to look like that. You don't see animals like that naturally. Wolves, coyotes, foxes esc don't ever and will never look like that. It's when you try to turn something away from the natural way this world works that you get problems. First of all it's no surprise all dog breeds have health issues because PEOPLE are breeding them. People aren't perfect..never will be. But when you start messing with whats natural by making super tiny dogs or chaning the natural way in which the body of a dog is supposed to look you get issues. GSDs, pugs, bulldogs esc are all unnatural in heir own ways and it's really not right but I won't even get into that. 

If they had experience with intact dogs thats another story once again. Experience with intact dogs would obviously give a breeder no reason to worry about unwanted breedings from that dog. But chances are that not every person coming to a breeder is going to have that experience. && if you understand the importance of fixing female dogs then you should know it's something that needs to be done. Having an intact dog because you don't believe in surgery is stupid when your going to be risking your dogs health to more serious things like cancer which is something intact female dogs are at risk for. Male dogs not so much and they do fine intact for the rest of their lives.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> You don't see animals like that naturally. Wolves, coyotes, foxes esc don't ever and will never look like that. It's when you try to turn something away from the natural way this world works that you get problems. First of all it's no surprise all dog breeds have health issues because PEOPLE are breeding them. People aren't perfect..never will be. But when you start messing with whats natural by making super tiny dogs or chaning the natural way in which the body of a dog is supposed to look you get issues. GSDs, pugs, bulldogs esc are all unnatural in heir own ways and it's really not right but I won't even get into that.


Yes, there is a difference between wild and domesticated animals. Form does follow function which takes care of all the wolves and coyotes etc. Most domestic dog breeds actually had a function when started but not so much now. Kinda like the ditchdiggers who are out of work because of the Backhoe. It's just not a perfect world for people or dogs.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Actually there is. If a breeder just goes and sells puppies without concerning themselves with with what happens to those puppies after they're sold I consider it a problem. A breeder should make sure that any pet quality puppies will be fixed. Obviously not if the breeder is selling it to someone that is going to show their dog or have their dog involved in something that the dog needs to be intact for. All good breeders should sell their dogs on a spay/nueter contract except on those cases.


Refer to what Xeph said about this, she said it well. Do you know what a limited registration is? Breeders sell dogs on this usually until they are titled and ofa'd. Once that happens, you can start a breeding program with puppies, but until then, you can't register any puppy the dog produces. Yeah, people could still do it, but what kind of backyard breeder is going to spend 1,500$ on a dog to breed without papers



> No their is. Most if not all large dogs don't mature till the age of two. Smaller dogs at the age of 1. I know that. You assume I don't know that and I just have time to sit here and put in every little detail about what I know about these things. Obviously there are certain breeds that mature at a different rate because of what breed they are rather then by the size. That makes a lot of sense too, no real surprise there. && can you tell me why GSDs have so many issues with their bones and joints. Maybe it has something to do with the standard breeders breed them to. Hmmm.


Actually, many large breeders don't mature until 2.5 or 3 years, so you're wrong again. Small dogs can mature by 6 months depending on the breed. There is no set "small dogs get nuetered at a year, big dogs at 2".

GSD have so many bone and joint issues because of backyard breeders and the like breeding them WRONG. Reputable breeders nowadays are doing everything they can to restore the dog to what it should be with solid bones and joints, that's why they OFA their dogs. 


> I'm sure they have a health guarentee. As for the kind of raw food they have.. they feed them vegies.. wow thats terrible. It's still probably a better diet then any kibble you could feed them. I don't see those as being reasons not to like them. First off I understand the health guarentee is important and something you shouldn't buy a puppy without but on the other hand I'm sure if you personally asked them they would inform you that they do have one. Other then that there has to be something more important that turns you off from them? Like their dogs don't have enough titles or important ones at that.. or you don't like the way the dogs look? I'm looking for a legit reason why you don't think they're good.


Vegtables are not necessary for dogs' well being, and it shows that they clearly do not understand the raw diet plan. It would be the same as feeding a dog kibble with grains as far as I'm concerned. And have you looked at comparable kibble vs. raw diets? They are not that much different in the way of health for the dog, especially if you're supplementing bones for the teeth in a kibble diet. My dog has been on both diets (the real raw diet, not with 50 supplements from the store and fruits/veggies) and has had great teeth, coat, skin, and health during both. 

You have no idea if they have a health guarantee or not, and you can't assume they do. Many breeders don't, and that's why I would never buy from them. If they had a good guarantee that they were proud of, don't you think it'd be on their website with everything else? Why leave that out?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> How many huge dogs are there in this world, like the Saint Bernard and those giant sheep dogs and nobody ever says..oh these dogs need to be shrunk because they're size is unhealthy/ Size isn't an issue.


Size absolutely is an issue. Why do you think the average lifespan of Bernese Mountain Dogs and St Bernards and Great Danes is so short? Bloat, heart problems, all those come along with giant breed dogs. 



> It's when you breed dogs to have unaural porportions like having a lower back end and a higher front. That could obviously cause problems. Your messing around with the dogs bone structure in an unatural way.


Healthy GSDs aren't unbalanced like that. It's the way they're stood. Make a table out of play-doh and stretch two of the legs back. That end of the table will fall, but it doesn't mean the legs are uneven. If a dog walks around with it's hips on the ground, YES that's unhealthy. But GOOD show dogs aren't like that. Dogs is an area of fine distinctions, I've never heard a gross generalization that was true for even 50% of cases. That's why saying one broad thing and then backtracking and saying "oh well of course I meant that exception" isn't an encouraging argument.



> Animals don't evolve to look like that. You don't see animals like that naturally. Wolves, coyotes, foxes esc don't ever and will never look like that. It's when you try to turn something away from the natural way this world works that you get problems. First of all it's no surprise all dog breeds have health issues because PEOPLE are breeding them. People aren't perfect..never will be. But when you start messing with whats natural by making super tiny dogs or chaning the natural way in which the body of a dog is supposed to look you get issues. GSDs, pugs, bulldogs esc are all unnatural in heir own ways and it's really not right but I won't even get into that.


So, what, no breeds of dogs? We all need to own wolves? And, as a note, wolves, coyotes, foxes are not huge mammoth animals. The energy requirement of giant sized carnivores generally isn't very efficient.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Size does make a difference. Many Giant Breeds are not long lived breeds and it can be for a variety of reasons one of which is structural. 

As Yvonne noted.. when the GSD is NOT stacked the dog should have a level back, like any other dog. 

As to wild creatures.. the fox is actually built down hill with longer hind legs (as are most cats, including domestic ones).

Here is my dog in a natural stack.. and as you can see she is not 'sloped' like you see in so many photos. 









and here she is doing what she was designed to do in a lesson.









She can jump twice her height and run and her trot floats over the ground. She can (and sdoes) leap straight up in the air higher than my head (5'6"). She has good hips and is a solid dog and she is, BTW, American Bred. She is not oversize at 70 pounds. She is, BTW, a Spay.

There are those of us in the breed who do want to develop strong, healthy dogs. Fact is, as a breeder I will be very choosey who I sell TO.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> like the Saint Bernard and those giant sheep dogs and nobody ever says they need to be shrunk


Two or three other people beat me to it, but I'll state it again!

Why do you think the average life span of the Giant breeds is 8-9 years? Danes as a whole do NOT live into double digits. Nor do Bernese Mountain Dogs, Saint Bernards, or Great Pyrenees. A very dear friend of mine lost his two HEALTHY Great Pyrs at the ages of 7 and 8.



> Male dogs not so much and they do fine intact for the rest of their lives.


Yet again, your arguments fail. Male animals are also susceptible to cancers of various sorts. Honestly, even with all the risks of an intact bitch, the only reason I find to spay overall, is convenience. Those long heat cycles are obnoxious (not gonna lie).


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I'm talking bout legit breeders that breed them for looks rather for whats really healthy for the dog. Mammoth GSDS aren't really a problem when youn think about it. How many huge dogs are there in this world, like the Saint Bernard and those giant sheep dogs and nobody ever says..oh these dogs need to be shrunk because they're size is unhealthy/ Size isn't an issue.


Legit breeders do not breed for looks above quality and health. That's the point. The people that do are not good breeders. Mammoth GSD ARE a BIG problem because they are only being bred by byb- people that aren't doing it for the breed. Reputable breeders would never breed a GSD so big, because 1. as you increase size, you increase health issues and 2. they follow the GSD STANDARD, which is NOT 120lbs. So now most of the mammoth GSD out there are suffering from bone and joint issues because they were bred without proper health testing, and are having increased issues such as bloat because of their unnatural size. 




> It's when you breed dogs to have unaural porportions like having a lower back end and a higher front. That could obviously cause problems. Your messing around with the dogs bone structure in an unatural way. Animals don't evolve to look like that. You don't see animals like that naturally.


It doesn't cause problems though. It's their size that puts them at risk for HD, and because they have been bred so poorly in the past that is in their genes now. Now they are very prone to it, and health testing helps prevent it. It had nothing to do with their shape. Their shape was bred for a PURPOSE, just like the breed was.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> What do you guys think of this breeder? http://www.vandenheuvelk9.com/index.html


van den Heuvel has some GREAT dogs. Among the favorites of many as far as lines and even individual producers. Congo Vikar, Xero z Pohranicni Straze, Norbo Ben Ju, Faro Policia, Orry. 

Would I buy a pup from them? Maybe, if they had a breeding I was interested in. But I would not personally recommend them as a breeder.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> Refer to what Xeph said about this, she said it well. Do you know what a limited registration is? Breeders sell dogs on this usually until they are titled and ofa'd. Once that happens, you can start a breeding program with puppies, but until then, you can't register any puppy the dog produces. Yeah, people could still do it, but what kind of backyard breeder is going to spend 1,500$ on a dog to breed without papers


Yeah I know what it is. My brother sells all his puppies on a limited AKC registration for that reason. 




DJEtzel said:


> Actually, many large breeders don't mature until 2.5 or 3 years, so you're wrong again. Small dogs can mature by 6 months depending on the breed. There is no set "small dogs get nuetered at a year, big dogs at 2".
> 
> GSD have so many bone and joint issues because of backyard breeders and the like breeding them WRONG. Reputable breeders nowadays are doing everything they can to restore the dog to what it should be with solid bones and joints, that's why they OFA their dogs.



No I'm not wrong. On average it's a year for small dogs and two years for large dogs. The bigger the dog the longer it takes to mature. The smaller the dog the faster it matures. A chihuahua is going to mature at a faster rate then a mini poodle for example because it reaches it maximum size at a faster rate because it doesn't really have that much growing to do. While a large dog like a St.Bernard for example is going to reach maturity at a slower rate then a GSD. It's not that I don't know this stuff I just like to make things simple. I'm no gonna sit here and figure out how long it takes every breed or every size of dog to grow. I just no that an average a smaller dog matures by the age of one and a large dog matures by the age of two. Smaller the dog the faster it matures, bigger the dog the longer it takes to mature. I know all this... 

Yeah and then there's the breeders that OFA there dogs that aren't reputable because they breed their dogs to a different standard because they have the opinion that the old standard is the reason why the breed ended up like it is in the first place. 



DJEtzel said:


> Vegtables are not necessary for dogs' well being, and it shows that they clearly do not understand the raw diet plan. It would be the same as feeding a dog kibble with grains as far as I'm concerned. And have you looked at comparable kibble vs. raw diets? They are not that much different in the way of health for the dog, especially if you're supplementing bones for the teeth in a kibble diet. My dog has been on both diets (the real raw diet, not with 50 supplements from the store and fruits/veggies) and has had great teeth, coat, skin, and health during both.
> 
> You have no idea if they have a health guarantee or not, and you can't assume they do. Many breeders don't, and that's why I would never buy from them. If they had a good guarantee that they were proud of, don't you think it'd be on their website with everything else? Why leave that out?


My brother even has a health guarentee on his dogs. 2 years for hips and 5 years for health. I'm sure if my brother has one and he's considered such a bad breeder then a breeder like that would HAVE to have one.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

> Having an intact dog because you don't believe in surgery is stupid when your going to be risking your dogs health to more serious things like cancer which is something intact female dogs are at risk for


 
The risk for female cancers in dog is about the same as the risk for female cancers in humans HOWEVER if a bitch is spayed TOO YOUNG her risk for STRUCTURAL cancers (bone cancers) goes UP enormously. I can honestly tell you my family has owned INTACT dogs of both sexes and never had an animal with a reproductive cancer, however my mother spayed her last Rottie bitch at 6 months and lost that Rottie bitch at 4 years old to BONE CANCER. The same hapened to my sisters male Rottie who was nuetered at 5 months, dead as 6 years, also BONE CANCER the pups in that litter that were left intact lived to be 10+ years old and NONE of them died of cancer



> WHo made the breed unhealthy? The breeders breeding them. They didn't just start out with all those issues. People bred the dog into an unhealhty dog beause of the way they bred them, I'm no talking about byb. I'm talking bout legit breeders that breed them for looks rather for whats really healthy for the dog. Mammoth GSDS aren't really a problem when youn think about it. How many huge dogs are there in this world, like the Saint Bernard and those giant sheep dogs and nobody ever says..oh these dogs need to be shrunk because they're size is unhealthy/ Size isn't an issue. It's when you breed dogs to have unaural porportions like having a lower back end and a higher front. That could obviously cause problems.


Yes, bad breeders make unhealthy dogs. so called 'legit' (I assume you mean show) breeders are not neccesarily REPUTABLE breeders. Now, as to structure, the GSD's rear end is SUPPOSED to be slightly lower with the PROPER angulation in the hocks so it gives the dog the power for a quick take off and fast acceleration, Wolves have this as well, Hyenas and African wild dogs are built this way (very low back end, powerful large front end) so there is a basis in nature that works.

As far as Wolves, Coyotes and other dogs not having these problems, no, because if they are born with any defect they don't genrally survive to reproduce and are therefore taken out of the gene pool.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> No I'm not wrong. On average it's a year for small dogs and two years for large dogs. The bigger the dog the longer it takes to mature. The smaller the dog the faster it matures. A chihuahua is going to mature at a faster rate then a mini poodle for example because it reaches it maximum size at a faster rate because it doesn't really have that much growing to do. While a large dog like a St.Bernard for example is going to reach maturity at a slower rate then a GSD. It's not that I don't know this stuff I just like to make things simple. I'm no gonna sit here and figure out how long it takes every breed or every size of dog to grow. I just no that an average a smaller dog matures by the age of one and a large dog matures by the age of two. Smaller the dog the faster it matures, bigger the dog the longer it takes to mature. I know all this...
> 
> You're still wrong, this is not the average. Many medium dogs mature by a year or less, most small waaaay before a year, and many large over two years. You can't label an average for this, plain and simple, but I'm done arguing this to death, you're obviously not getting it.
> 
> ...


No, they wouldn't. There are many different things that make a breeder a reputable one or a backyard breeder. It doesn't rely solely on the health guarantee...


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Where did he _go?_ Gorgeous color, nice top line, I like his head and neck, but nothing _stands out_. He's balanced, nothing's over done. Gorgeous.


His breeders/owners are still into show GSDs- but not the old style. Their new dogs are out there winning in the AKC specialty and all breed ring. I guess as times change, so do some people and breeding plans.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Many loopholes have been made into health guarantees by bad breeders as well. You have to look into the whole picture and research thoroughly your future breeder. A short cut buying a cheaper bred dog is not a shortcut in the end and buying an expensive dog does not get you quality automatically either you must do your homework.

hey Mal!!! I didn't know you were here


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

FWIW the animal with the fastest get away is the Cheetah.. and if you look at how they are built it is a bit different than a dog with longer rear legs (I do not want to be argumentative so please do not take this that way). Cats are the BEST animals on earth for fast get aways.. and they are built down hill (as are many of the winning racing Quarterhorses!). 

The German shepherd dog is a trotting breed and so really needs to be a bit rectangular in structure (longer than tall). Wolves also trot long miles with a shorter stride while the German shepherd has a longer stride keeping the dog lower to the ground for quick, smooth turns to keep up with the flock and not alarm the livestock. Shorter back can cause the dog to interfere at the trot and the turns will be more abrupt.. not that silky smoothe you need to keep the sheep calm. 

As the breed started to be used for other work (mainly protection and guard work.. and I believe associated with war), the structure became more square for more ability to work off the hind legs for jumping etc. 

A level back when standing square is desirable (again, look at Yvonne's example). A level back with trotting is desirable. The dog ought to be able to stand comfortably level and square. 

When the dog is put in a show stack.. things are different. The near hind leg is stretched (some) and the far hind is placed under the dog. It is supposed to be placed such that the stretched pastern is vertical and the far hind foot is below the dog's far hip. 

In the picture of my dog the croup is a bit steep. That will not make her structurally unsound but would not help her in the show ring. 

In all reality the back bone should have a lazey S shape on its side. The structure allows the dog to contract and extend as he changes his trot to turn and to run the line while tending livestock. 

Remember.. the breed was for livestock tending at a long trot all day long. The protection and all that came out later. It really comes down to physics.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> As far as Wolves, Coyotes and other dogs not having these problems, no, because if they are born with any defect they don't genrally survive to reproduce and are therefore taken out of the gene pool.


That's why I mentioned the form follows function. In the wild you got no form to do the function you die and absolutely no breeding. 



> My brother even has a health guarentee on his dogs. 2 years for hips and 5 years for health. I'm sure if my brother has one and he's considered such a bad breeder then a breeder like that would HAVE to have one.


A dog has to be 2 yrs old before you can get OFA testing done and with the above the hip guarantee would already be useless. Any pups we sold had hips and health for 5 years. Normally dogs tested good are not gonna have bad hips later.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

> A dog has to be 2 yrs old before you can get OFA testing done and with the above the hip guarantee would already be useless.


One of the most used loopholes in a bad breeder doing health checks. Another is to say they test but they do not post what results were and newbs have no idea how to check. Saying the test does not say the dogs passed or what they consider breed worthy ratings.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm pretty sure that's why he has it for 2 years. So that the owners can get their dogs OFA tested if they want and if they come back and the results aren't good he'll replace the puppy for them. After the two year mark and OFA testing is done there's no need for a hip guarentee because you'll already know what your dogs test results were.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Nope, they say that on contracts that 2 years covers literally to age two. You cannot OFA cert hips until after two. It is a loophole pet stores and bad breeders started using years ago.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Yvonne said:


> One of the most used loopholes in a bad breeder doing health checks. Another is to say they test but they do not post what results were and newbs have no idea how to check. Saying the test does not say the dogs passed or what they consider breed worthy ratings.


Which I can honestly say isn't something my brother does. Something I found amusing is that some of the dogs on the reputable breeders websites that were put up had dogs that scored fair on the OFA results and they still breed them. My brother fixed a dog because it only got a fair. He only breeds dogs who's results come back as at least a good.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Okay you are not getting it. Fair is actually considered passing however I would not buy one personally. Two, your brothers dogs are structural nightmares that can at 2 be currently ok in x rays but because the structure is so bad it will put extra stress on the joints past that xray. Please educate yourself on this breed before trying to argue about it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Fair is a passing score. I wouldn't discard a dog because of a fair rating, but I'd certainly breed it do a dog with a better hip score.



> Please educate yourself on this breed before trying to argue about it.


I've said that the last couple of years. It does no good.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yvonne said:


> One of the most used loopholes in a bad breeder doing health checks. Another is to say they test but they do not post what results were and newbs have no idea how to check. Saying the test does not say the dogs passed or what they consider breed worthy ratings.


Well in Germany they hip x-ray at one year and with the normal dogs at one year 30% of these dogs at 2 yrs of age have hip problems. These statistics are almost 30 yrs ago and may have changed now. Just thought I would put it in the mix. I'm surely not surprised at the non-posting of results, like everything else, "it's buyer beware"


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Ok think of it this way, different dogs are made to do different jobs, some work at a trot, some need to sprint, some need speed for long distances. What is SOUND structure in one breed is poor in another because the joint stresses of each type of work is going to be different.

For a GSD, which as others have told you is a trotter, having a 'square' build (like a Dobe which is a runner) is going to put undue stress on the elbow, knee and hock. The front end needs to be slightly higher and the body slightly longer to accomodate the stride in a healthy manner. The GSD needs more angulation in the hock than a Dobe to allow a more accurate turn without blowing the knees out from a ligament tear. It's really physics 101.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

My feral bred cat has the same rear end structure as a German Shepherd and so do wild Foxes. 

here is my cat in a GSD stack pose. no I am not stretching him out I am simply holding him still cause of course he's a cat and he didn't like being held.










Of course my cat runs very slow but he is a stalking hunter and doesn't need speed, he needs power that his rear end delivers for the kill.


I wonder if I bred my cat would his kittens be prone to bone problems because of his extreme rear? I doubt it. Do you think it's unhealthy for my cat to have a 90 degree angulation, whats unhealthy about it? why would it cause him problems, I would say it helps him at his job, not hurts.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*ROFL!* That is EXCELLENT! <3 <3 <3

Also....poor Butch


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

OMG I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! do you know a non gsd forum I am on have not been able to grasp one tenth of this over the last five years? lol


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I wanna go snuggle Butch now (as someone who has met that cat, he's really very pleasant....and then he wants to go out and eat mice again).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

That is awesome, Keechak. I wonder how he'd do on sheep? XD


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I don't know but he's killed two mice in the house in the past month so at least he's earning his keep.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Fair is a passing score. I wouldn't discard a dog because of a fair rating, but I'd certainly breed it do a dog with a better hip score.
> 
> 
> I've said that the last couple of years. It does no good.


Fair is like getting a C on a test. Good would be the equivalent of a B and excellent would be an A. So you wouldn't just be happy if your child got a C you would want them to score at least a B or an A. Even if a C is passing. 

Reputable breeders shouldn't be breeding a dog breed that is known to have joint, bone and hip problems that just get a fair as a result for a health test. It doesn't matter how many titles the dog has and how good of a working dog it is, it still is only fair when it comes to the health of the dogs hips and considering thats something the breed suffers with thats just stupid. If you want to prevent the dog from having those health issues then you should be breeding dogs with only good or excellent health test results.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

To your analogy what good is an "A" in elementary school if they fail high school later because structure broke down half way through training?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> So you wouldn't just be happy if your child got a C you would want them to score at least a B or an A. Even if a C is passing.


You just don't get it!

What about the REST of the dog!? This is not a dog that is dysplastic. The hip joint COULD and SHOULD conform to the socket better, but the dog is not dysplastic. I am NOT going to wash a dog out of breeding if it has the correct temperament, structure, longevity, and health behind it over fair hips! ESPECIALLY if siblings, parents, grand parents, cousins, uncles, aunts, nieces, and nephews AS A WHOLE have good scores!

A dog with a "Fair" DOES NOT have joint issues >.<

Why do I even bother? You don't listen. You read what you want to read.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I feel with fair hips even in a dog with proper structure that it had better have another quality that is a must have. There are too many gsds to add to breeding program with better hip score and only the cream of the crop should be added to the gene pool. This is why I personally would not breed a fair rating as well as I have over 5000 invested in a bitch I never bred from VA German lines just because she has allergies... I am picky and feel to many dogs are being bred that perhaps should be culled from breeding programs.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Fair is like getting a C on a test. Good would be the equivalent of a B and excellent would be an A. So you wouldn't just be happy if your child got a C you would want them to score at least a B or an A. Even if a C is passing.
> 
> Reputable breeders shouldn't be breeding a dog breed that is known to have joint, bone and hip problems that just get a fair as a result for a health test. It doesn't matter how many titles the dog has and how good of a working dog it is, it still is only fair when it comes to the health of the dogs hips and considering thats something the breed suffers with thats just stupid. If you want to prevent the dog from having those health issues then you should be breeding dogs with only good or excellent health test results.


dog breeding isn't as clean and simple as that. If you were to remove all the dogs with "fair" ratings from breeding you will also inadvertently be removing many dogs who have more to give to the breed. A Fair should only be bred to an Excellent IMO but a dog with amazing temperament and working ability and the rest of the stucture is as sturdy as a quarter horse should not be thrown away. "Fair" means the dog doesn't have hip dysplasia, and thats good.

However if a dog with a fair rating has nothing outstanding to offer for his or her breed then I agree there is no reason to breed them.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I wouldn't breed a fair to a fair, but I'd breed a fair to a good/excellent. I'm not going to chuck out an entire dog over fair hips. It's just ridiculous.

Heck, I know of a few breeders that got a "fair" rating on one of their animals, had them re-xrayed, submitted again....lo and behold...OFA Good!

While I will always hipscreen, one thing to remember is that the rating your dog gets depends on who looks at its x-rays that day! One panel of three can say "Good" and another panel of three can say "Excellent"


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Reputable breeders shouldn't be breeding a dog breed that is known to have joint, bone and hip problems that just get a fair as a result for a health test.


Fair is a passing score that can be improved upon...It is not an indication of joint, bone & hip problems.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you have a fair hipped gsd?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Do you have a fair hipped gsd?


Nope. Strauss is OFA Good, Elbows Normal.

Mirada is too young to be officially certified. I'm debating whether or not I really want to do prelims (the answer is probably not).

I've shown a fair rated dog though.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Each dog person has to have their personal limit, Fair is passing but it would take one heck of a dog for me to breed it with the other qualities but as I said I am over board thinking too many gsds out there and I also do rescue besides raising and showing mine that I do not believe in breeding a litter unless the breed benefits from that dog producing.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I only showed the dog. He's not mine (though I do <3 him....if I had a suitable bitch to take to him, I would).


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

xoxluvablexox-You clearly don't know what you are talking about. The reason show dogs look that is because they are stacked that way. It does not hurt them. They can still function properly. You brother's dogs are NOT what the GSD is supposed to be size wise. There is much more to breeding than having 2 dogs that have their hips certified just once. Breeding dogs need to be health tested regularly not once, and have titles to prove that they are breeding potential and much more.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Yvonne said:


> I feel with fair hips even in a dog with proper structure that it had better have another quality that is a must have. There are too many gsds to add to breeding program with better hip score and only the cream of the crop should be added to the gene pool. This is why I personally would not breed a fair rating as well as I have over 5000 invested in a bitch I never bred from VA German lines just because she has allergies... I am picky and feel to many dogs are being bred that perhaps should be culled from breeding programs.


Boy do I ever agree with this. IMHO there would have to be something OUTSTANDING about a dog whom scored 'fair' for them to be bred. I also am with you on the allergies issue. My GSD, Hildy, was a very nice bitch. She moved well and she would go all day long. She also was as bomb proof a dog as I have seen BUT she had allergies. The original intentions with the breeder were to breed her but alas, her allergies, crushed that intent from her breeders and my own viewpoints. 
There are far too many 'decent' shepherds out there now and many whom have great drives and temperment. IMHO it is unethical to breed specimens whom are outside of breed standard, have 'fair' OFA, and him have any medical issues (such as allergies). It was a easy remedy to treat her food allergies as I switched to raw after some trial and error but it wouldn't have felt right if we had bred her and she passed that trait on.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Yes, I feed raw for her allergies and it is still a constant maintenance and you would be surprised how many are breeding gsds with allergies on purpose!! They don't seem to think anything of it and do not volunteer the info that the dog suffers from it.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

That is rather infuriating. Probably the same breeders whom complain about other breeders helping to 'ruin' the breed. 
This is such a large issue within this breed whom I love with all my heart- the constant bickering and those whom only stand on one side of the fence (show or work lines). There honestly shouldn't be a difference between the 2 if they were bred to standard (or as near as is possible) and they should all be able to do the duties they were bred for. Looks aren't the be all end all and neither are out of standard, ugly dogs whom can work... It should be a wonderful balance. 
Health issues, yes including allergies, shouldn't be bred or allowed to continue in lines exhibiting these issues. Its a heck of a job to make certain that your dog never gets certain food, medicine, never has a flea bite (heaven forbid and have a horrible reaction). Anyone who has had to live with a dog with these issues will understand that it can become a chore to attempt to find out what exactly is causing the allergies. We had to rule out many things and while I love my vet, I didn't agree with ongoing allergy shots as the solution for the bigger problem so I figured it out myself through trial and error. 
When it is time for me to look for my next GSD I will be very picky about my breeder as I want to have someone whom has ideals very close to mine. 
I don't want to see this breed ruined in the end. And I want a healthy GSD whom has the traits I'd expect in a properly bred dog of this breed.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

And again, a dog that is OFA Fair is not a dog that is "broken" so we'll have to agree to disagree on that line. I wouldn't breed a dog with allergies. That said, somebody sent me this interesting article that's worth a read http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff...egarding-canine-hip-dysplasia-by-peter-vogel/


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I agree with all you have said, Moomoosmommy!

I will agree to disagree on the fair hips as well.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I guess the breeding of 'OFA'd Fair' dogs sort of throws me for a loop.... When I think of breeding, I think of it like this- Only the Best of the Best. I would always choose an OFA Good or Excellent over a Fair. 
If an OFA'd Fair dog/bitch was exceptional- Maybe I'd breed it but only to an Excellent. That is still a rather large maybe.
The problem with the 'agree to disagree' angle, IMHO, is this- When does the issues at hand, regarding this breed, become more than 'agree to disagree'? Is it only when someone is breeding as a BYB? Is certain health testing just optional because of 'agree to disagree'? Should 'showlines' and 'working lines' be seperate because we 'agree to disagree'? 
To me this is why the breed has had issues over time. A standard is a standard is a standard. Should the standard for breeding be lowered because some agree, some don't agree with different aspects of the breed standard and/or health testing? 
Honestly and sincerely when does one stop playing 'nicey nice' about issues within their given breed of choice? My first GSD was a mess. His mother was 'fair'. His father had dysplasia. Most likely it was the sires' lines but who knows honestly... When I have to watch my beloved family member, from a very young age, be in constant pain and battling through one surgery after another because of this crippling disease..... And then to have to make the choice at under 3 years to 'let him go'.... Playing nice be darned. 
I won't role the dice with these health issues. It isn't, IMHO, a gamble worth taking. The pain and agony of the loss of Thor was enough for this girl. My second GSD was a totally different experience. She had mild hip issues as she aged but nothing like Thors. Her sire and dam OFA'd good yet the Hip dysplasia did rear it's ugly head but a very mild case. If 2 'good' ratings can still throw a case of HD what chance is there a 'fair' can?

I am really not trying to be a jerk here or to cause an uproar. I love this breed and I don't want to see the basic temperment, health, and characteristics of this lovely dog go down the drain. I am not even sure if the thoughts in my head came out as clearly in written word as they do in my head. I just want this breed and everything it is supposed to be to last so that my children and their children can enjoy a properly bred and healthy GSD in the future.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

When I say I agree to disagree it means I know the limits of forum rules and I will not back down and I do not wish to get in trouble. I do not believe in it and will always disagree with breeding a fair and I am familiar with what happens and I will continue to spread my views and urge people to consider them. Xeph it just as resolute in her viewpoint however much I disagree with it. The good part of thread like this is people will read both sides and it will change a few minds hopefully to my view.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I understand that completely. I guess I will never understand somes point of view. Ethics are definetly different among many in the breed. Seems to have varying degrees. That throws me.


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## sukhakuli (Mar 9, 2010)

As an owner of a 9 year old GSD, this discussion has been interesting to me. And very sad. I adore the breed, and it bothers me to hear that the breed is in such serious trouble. After reading this I feel very lucky that our GSD has had absolutely perfect health his entire life, and is still in great health. I am hoping that he will be with us for years to come still. I am dreading the day when his time with us is over. I don't know what I would do without him; he's like one of my children. It is unfortunate that other families may not experience what we have experienced with our dog because a GSD they get has health problems.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Nobody even knows if HD is genetic (I am not using this as an excuse to NOT xray)! It's a polygenic trait with a MILLION different factors, and if you look at the results from "way back when" (the 1960's) to now, you will see that improvements made are basically ZIP. There's a lot more to HD than just breeding "Good to Good".

If I had an exceptional dog that was OFA Fair, I'd breed him/her to a Good or Excellent dog. But I'm not going to throw out a dog that is physically sound and has awesome genetics (health, temperament, working ability, longevity, etc) because he passed OFA with a fair. The gene pool is already narrow enough (one of the many reasons this breed has issues). It doesn't need to be narrowed further.

Heck, if Mirada ends up being suitable for breeding, finding a stud dog that's Dallas free will sure be a kicker!


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I was happy to see Dallas do well and thought it would be properly used to bring am bred gsds back from the grave but it was overdone and some good dogs resulted however damage has been done as well.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

LOL, I never cared for Dallas (there was nothing wrong with him, he just wasn't my kind of dog).

He's behind my puppy, but that's certainly not why I chose her. With Dallas the breed is going right back to where it was with Bear (Sundance Kid) and Lance.

I'll be looking at stud dogs with longevity behind them, since Dallas died at barely 10 years old. Mirada's lines overall have great longevity and health and that's something I want to maintain and expound on.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I am traditional in what I want. A gsd was bred to work and so I want one that has working history in the lines and capable of working. Dallas worked. I have seen many champion gsds these days that cannot stay up in a strong wind blowing sideways to work or are very weak in their structure males that look feminine and females that are so fine boned they look like they will break. I grew up with 70's am lines. Those were fit and structural gsds with sound temperament. I cannot stand lines that have skittish or fear biting dogs with weak character. I believe in the system of only breeding gsds that prove their character and work drive and not just to trot in a ring. On this we will also have to agree to disagree.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> And again, a dog that is OFA Fair is not a dog that is "broken" so we'll have to agree to disagree on that line. I wouldn't breed a dog with allergies. That said, somebody sent me this interesting article that's worth a read http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff...egarding-canine-hip-dysplasia-by-peter-vogel/


Thanks for linking that, Xeph. I've been reading about fun stuff like hips and reproductive organs and pyo for like two hours. I'm finally starting to move out of the blind love stage with that blog, but it's still fantastic stuff.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

What must also be kept in mind when looking at hip rating genetic statistics is many are not entered into the study so the information compile is flawed. A study is only as correct as the information gathered.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Yvonne said:


> What must also be kept in mind when looking at hip rating genetic statistics is many are not entered into the study so the information compile is flawed. A study is only as correct as the information gathered.


Absolutely, and I have a huge problem with the fact that they aren't. I was shocked when I found out you sit in a room with a vet and decide if "they're good enough" to send in. That's total bullshit, you have hips done they go in. Period. Good data is more important that your reputation, especially in dogs because so much of it is outdated conventional wisdom.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I love the following. A dog with a FAIR OFA is not dysplastic. A dog that is outstanding in other regards that is FAIR OFA is not a dog to avoid breeding with.. it is a dog you breed carefully (but you should do that anyway). I might be more hesitant to accept a stud dog with 'FAIR' rating than a bitch because a stud dog has so many more opportunities to add to the gene pool. 

The interesting thing is that a dog can (and they do) move up or down in score depending on how the xrays have been done. Something to toss into the mix. 



Xeph said:


> A dog with a "Fair" DOES NOT have joint issues >.<





Yvonne said:


> I feel with fair hips even in a dog with proper structure that it had better have another quality that is a must have. There are too many gsds to add to breeding program with better hip score and only the cream of the crop should be added to the gene pool. This is why I personally would not breed a fair rating as well as I have over 5000 invested in a bitch I never bred from VA German lines just because she has allergies... I am picky and feel to many dogs are being bred that perhaps should be culled from breeding programs.





Keechak said:


> dog breeding isn't as clean and simple as that. If you were to remove all the dogs with "fair" ratings from breeding you will also inadvertently be removing many dogs who have more to give to the breed. A Fair should only be bred to an Excellent IMO but a dog with amazing temperament and working ability and the rest of the stucture is as sturdy as a quarter horse should not be thrown away. "Fair" means the dog doesn't have hip dysplasia, and thats good.
> 
> However if a dog with a fair rating has nothing outstanding to offer for his or her breed then I agree there is no reason to breed them.


Keechak.. is.. the *voice of reason.* IF phenotype were the only factor in breeding animals then some of the finest racing blood in thoroughbreds would have been jetisoned with testicles. In fact, the Godolphin Barb, one of the founding sires of the Thoroughbred, did not match the phenotype of English Race Horse breeders of the time... and if not for accidental breeding and the resulting offspring he might have been passed over. 

The point is that there is more to breeding than spectacular phenotype. Of course you always work toward the 'perfect' conformation combined with 'perfect' biddability and mental talent.. and that is what makes breeding animals so very fascinating. 



Xeph said:


> I wouldn't breed a fair to a fair, but I'd breed a fair to a good/excellent. I'm not going to chuck out an entire dog over fair hips. It's just ridiculous.
> 
> Heck, *I know of a few breeders that got a "fair" rating on one of their animals, had them re-xrayed, submitted again....lo and behold...OFA Good*!
> 
> While I will always hipscreen, one thing to remember is that the rating your dog gets depends on who looks at its x-rays that day! One panel of three can say "Good" and another panel of three can say "Excellent"


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This! Most important is the dog is NOT DYSPLASTIC. 



GypsyJazmine said:


> Fair is a passing score that can be improved upon...It is not an indication of joint, bone & hip problems.


And this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^



Xeph said:


> Nobody even knows if HD is genetic (I am not using this as an excuse to NOT xray)! It's a polygenic trait with a MILLION different factors, and if you look at the results from "way back when" (the 1960's) to now, you will see that improvements made are basically ZIP. There's a lot more to HD than just breeding "Good to Good".
> 
> If I had an exceptional dog that was OFA Fair, I'd breed him/her to a Good or Excellent dog. But I'm not going to throw out a dog that is physically sound and has awesome genetics (health, temperament, working ability, longevity, etc) because he passed OFA with a fair. The gene pool is already narrow enough (one of the many reasons this breed has issues). It doesn't need to be narrowed further.
> 
> Heck, if Mirada ends up being suitable for breeding, finding a stud dog that's Dallas free will sure be a kicker!


And more of the same.. plus the worry over genetic diversity. 
Back when I was purchasing Atka, my spay, I read up the latest on HD and it was very interesting. A study (Cornell I think) was conducted of shelter dogs and it was found that dysplasia had become as prevalent in Shelter Mixed breeds as it is in many pure bred dogs.. and in some cases it was suggested that responsible breeding had actually reduced the incidence of HD in Pure Bred dogs so there was less likelihood there than from shelter dogs. They also indicated that HD is not a single trait.. and so, while studies continue, it seems there may be no genetic marker. 

Just tossing it out there. 

And Yvonne, I would never tell you that you are wrong to be very picky. Never. Not sure how long you have been at this game.. I have not been at it long and admit it. I have a much longer history with breeding horses and, especially, dairy cattle. I am not without knowledge. I did learn, when breeding, to not toss the baby out with the bathwater and I also learned that you can get it all perfect and end up with an abomination as a result (after waiting a year with a preggo mare! How discouraging!). 

This conversation, BTW, has remained civil and is informative. Love the stacking of the cat..... I will have to talk to Oliver. He has short hair and it is easier to see his structure...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

WONDERFUL post, Elana!

I would like to state for the record that I DO NOT think EVERY OFA Fair dog should be bred! Quite the contrary! I just want to be clear that I could not and would not throw out an outstanding dog because he ended up not being dysplastic through the rating of Fair instead of Excellent.

Raegan, I don't care if the x-rays are "Good enough" to send in in regards to a dog with ACTUAL dysplasia, but I've seen some wonky films and I would demand they be retaken properly. I'd still send, whether the dog was going to pass or not.



> Those were fit and structural gsds with sound temperament. I cannot stand lines that have skittish or fear biting dogs with weak character. I believe in the system of only breeding gsds that prove their character and work drive and not just to trot in a ring. On this we will also have to agree to disagree.


When did I EVER say that was acceptable? Have you READ any of my other posts? Do you know how much I actually DO with my dogs?

I personally don't find the SV system to be particularly helpful anymore. The IDEA is the right one, but after seeing the last couple of years of bite work from the Sieger Show, the German show lines aren't doing much better >.<

I DO think this breed should be required to be titled in performance before they're bred, but the standard of work for show lines and working lines is COMPLETELY different. All you need do is compare the "Work" of the Sieger Show to the work of the BSP or AWDF.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Best Shepherd that I was fortunate enough to own was mildly dysplastic, He was a dog with courage intelligence, that would do a 50 yard muzzle attack and try to beat you to death with the muzzle but could be left in a room full of kids. This dog had much to offer but definitely not one to breed to because of hips. I returned papers to breeder, they outfitted me with a new pup whose hips turned out excellent and Wvasko at 10 years of age was PTSed with wife and I at his side when his back end went out for good. At that time and still now think that I would rather live with a dog with bad hips and brains more so than good hips and no brains. *But neither dog in my opinion should ever be bred.* Why would you because there are dogs in the GSD breed that have both. Oh, this dog is obviously my user name and the avatar that is on DF today.

Oh this was West German stock.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Best Shepherd that I was fortunate enough to own was mildly dysplastic, He was a dog with courage intelligence, that would do a 50 yard muzzle attack and try to beat you to death with the muzzle but could be left in a room full of kids. This dog had much to offer but definitely not one to breed to because of hips. I returned papers to breeder, they outfitted me with a new pup whose hips turned out excellent and Wvasko at 10 years of age was PTSed with wife and I at his side when his back end went out for good. At that time and still now think that I would rather live with a dog with bad hips and brains more so than good hips and no brains. *But neither dog in my opinion should ever be bred.* Why would you because there are dogs in the GSD breed that have both. Oh, this dog is obviously my user name and the avatar that is on DF today.


Oh I agree. 

No one here (I hope) would suggest or support breeding a dog that is dysplastic (even mildly so), no matter how wonderful. I would also hope no one would suggest to breed a dog that was not to the standard for temperament or brains. 

A dog that is "fair" OFA is not dysplastic. A dysplastic dog should not be bred.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Also agreed!


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I believe I said AKC bred gsds were not working or capable on the whole to be able to I do not believe I compared anything to BSP or AWDF.
Before I was into gsd I was sardog with rottweilers and I had to import working dogs because AKC rottweilers were too much body mass and their center of gravity height to length ratio were off making them over heat and unable to balance on rails and ladders. The rottweilers I see today in my friend Rebekahs stock look like they could do the job and I see others that would be able to fit the bill if I were still into rottweilers. However when I was working them the AKC dogs could not get the job done. I see the same thing in GSDS. I also do not base a gsds worth on how hard he can hit a decoy or how ferocious he looks while doing it. Schutzhund is not the original purpose of the breed however was used to gauge the dogs obedience and courage. Herding on the other hand is the original purpose and too many gsds have never been introduced to a sheep these days. Dallas herded and did a fine job of it. I have worked in kennels many many years and in the last 25 years every AKC gsd I see has fine boned deep chest with no body to support it making it like a keel drive ship and most are fear biters or cower in the corners hiding. There seem to be many here into horses so I will use horse analogy. I see the AKC GSD gone the way of the show arabian head. In the breed you dont see it changing over the years because to you it is gradual however if you look at a show arabian head versus the show arabian head of today you will see just how extreme it has become. Like anything there are exceptions in the registry but what I do not agree with is the exceptions these days are not winning which is going to force more extreme breeding. If they went with having to have a working title do you realise how many AKC gsds would have to be thrown out of breeding? For fun I plan on showing Ulf some AKC conformation. I know he will not win because only extreme dogs that fit their mold do. He fits the standard a straight and level back, but in no way will I make him stack the preferred AKC extreme stack.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Herding on the other hand is the original purpose and too many gsds have never been introduced to a sheep these days.


Funny. I put my little American puppy on sheepfor the first time just a couple of weeks ago. She had a blast. The nearest person to me to do ANY sort of herding with is Susan Rhoades, who runs Border Collies >.<

With there only being TWO HGH instructors in the entire US, I won't be able to even test my puppy for that sort of work unless Jon and I miraculously end up stationed near Geary or Ulf.



> If they went with having to have a working title do you realise how many AKC gsds would have to be thrown out of breeding?


Of course. I'm not stupid. But I train my dogs in many venues (as many as they enjoy and can handle). I wouldn't mind the fearful freaks being thrown out of the genepool. I won't stand for an idiotic spooky dog. I owned one. Loved him. 

Never again.

You're speaking to me like I have NO idea what goes on in the American lines, and I very much do.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Ulf Kintzel put the HGH on my pups Grand sire and we have been thinking of doing it with Ulf. My bitch loves to tend herd!! It is so much fun spending the whole day out there. I just do not care for the AKC style herding but fully support any GSD out there doing it and enjoying what they were created for.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I just do not care for the AKC style herding


Nor do I, but unfortunately, it's pretty much the only option.

I had another bitch I tested with Geary Loff when I was with my husband (then fiance) in Jersey. Very pleasant man, very knowledgable. Nice Beauceron.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

You could do like I did with my bitch and find a sheep herder on farm and learn from the every day working source. I went to the next valley over from my home Where there were many sheep farms and I found an old style shepherd who worked tend style herding dogs and had them train me in which my dog and I provided them days off working their sheep when we were proficient. It was an awesome trade off and I miss it very much now that I have moved to TN.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

LOL, I haven't managed to find anything of the like down here....

I barely know my way around as it is (I don't go much farther than an hour from the house in any direction). Husband and I are looking into a schutzhund club though. He liked doing bitework with my male, and I know he's structured enough to do the OB and everything, and it's good for the puppy in any event, whether she could be titled or not.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I do not understand why you say your pup cannot get a schutzhund title? Even mixes can get schutzhund title?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

While we are willing to put in the work, I cannot deny the genetics that may be (are most likely) lacking in the American puppy.

Now, this is not to say she is a spook (LORD no). She went to a puppy FULL of working line puppies and dogs who were bold and boisterous....and she was just as bold as any of em (and one of the few that did well on sheep)! In fact, people were not just paying me lip service and being kind about my American puppy. They were overall very complimentary and quite impressed with her temperament.

But that does not change the fact that genetically she is FAR less likely to be inclined to really light into a helper. She's resilient, and not afraid to try new things, and can bounce back from a correction, but her biting is unlikely to be full and hard, partially because of the construction of her muzzle (I do take issue with her head...she's narrow...and there are LOTS of Amline dogs out there these days with much better heads). Chances are she will be a bit nervy in her bites as she ages.

HOWEVER, I do think SchH, whether she could title or not, would be an extremely valuable tool in evaluating her for breeding purposes.

The only 'downside' of this training for me is that my husband would have to handle her, and I really couldn't be involved (My current state of mobility makes it dangerous for me to work a dog in protection without help).


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

If a jack russel can do schutzhund I would think your gsd pup could if you put in the effort. Only doing the bare minimum to say you did something just does not cut it with a working breed. It is this type attitude that ruins the gsd breed in America. I will excuse myself from this part of conversation.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Correct me if I'm wrong but the dog in this picture, drawing of a dog anyway, is in a show stack already. Ok now look at that compared to the dogs you've been posting pictures up of in their show stacks. Find me a breeder that breeds GSDs that look like THAT in a show stack rather then the ones you've been posting up. My brothers dogs look more like that in a show stack then the ones you've been putting up. 

http://www.royalair.org/pasttopresent.htm

Like Yvonne I'm not going to pick on your dog but I saw a picture of a dog that looked like yours in a show stack that said they have roached backs..didn't think that was a good thing.


http://www.germanshepherdsrule.com/informationpage.html got the link of of here. Which is a website my brother has linked from his breeding website.

&& you guys might want to read this too:http://www.royalair.org/ofastats.htm

"I have often heard from perspective buyers that other GSD(german shepherd dog) breeders have told them to stay away from the big gsd's as they have more hip dysplasia. Nothing can be farther from the truth!. especially if you have OFA'd (hip certified) your lines. If you need solid proof look no farther then the OFA static's below! As it is clearly stated many breeds of dogs with the highest incidence of hip dysplasia are much smaller then the GSD Look at the PUG he is tiny 4 to 8 lbs and he has 60% HD!! (please notice many much smaller breeds have much more hd then german shepherds) PUG breeders untill they saw clear problems hardley ever OFA'd 

In 25 years of breeding I have had all lines of shepherds from strictly white to black lines to west german show lines to german working lines to east german lines as well as the best of the american show lines at one time. My first ten years of breeding was made up of trying everything popular unfortunately.. and I have stated many times I always went back to my old original dogs from the old lines to get away from my "new" line problems... Now I can't reiterate this point enough "I had triple the dysplasia problems from my buyers and in the dogs I kept for breeding(even though parents dogs were ofa ) from my smaller german lines! I tried all the best from the top breeders and still got about 30% HD from my buyers and the dogs I kept! ( I was replacing them all the time!) AND THEY WERE AND ARE MUCH SMALLER then the dogs of older lines I have today, they were fed and exercised the same as well, but with my old lines I would run much less HD and now through the use of OFA for nearly 20 years my lines and those of most breeders of old line that have OFA'd run about 2% of HD effected dogs from my buyers and the ones I have kept back , so once again it is "BREEDING&FEEDING" NOT SIZE OF THE GERMAN SHEPHERD DOG THAT CAUSES HIP DYSPLASIA! "

Oh yeah, who needs to educate themselves again? The OFA results are on the website. 

Now where is your proof that the dogs size causes problems... or maybe it's just your theory and you have nothing to back it up right?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Ahhh Mr. Murphy <3

I think it would be really nice to try. The hard part is getting someone to accept and FAIRLY work an American puppy (nevermind actually making it to a field and getting the title!). I did e-mail a club today that is "only" two hours away and highly recommended by some people 

Ugh...that stupid Royalair site >.<

Your brother's dogs, REGARDLESS of how they stand, are structurally INCORRECT. I'm talking from the functional view point of the standard.

The vast majority of these dogs are also posted in the WRONG era.



> Find me a breeder that breeds GSDs that look like THAT in a show stack rather then the ones you've been posting up.


They're called WORKING LINES...not that you've been listening.

The Wildhaus dogs, Spartanville dogs, Adler Stein dogs, the majority go that direction (with better structure).


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIaM3hYFszc&feature=related

Just watch that, it really makes me want to cry. I hate show breeders I really do.


I don't care if the pictures are posted in the wrong era. What I'm lookin at is the picture of the GSD that is correct to standard compared to the dogs I see now adays. Like really I'm n ot tryin to pick on you Yvonne, I just noticed your dogs back right away. Like your dog looks like it's a humpback. Yet apparently you got it from a reputable breeder. Well if they're breeding to standard shouldn't it look like the picture of the dog that is the CORRECT standard. 

Like you people make no sense. BREED TO STANDARD. Even your own dogs don't look like that dog that is supposed to be what the perfect GSD looks like. Come on now, if your gonna preach at least follow your words.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

You brought up my bitch but you did not read the caption with her stating it was a bad stack nor apparently do you wish to look at her other photos where it shows her topline is indeed correct. She was never bred because I did not feel she was an asset to the breed.
I am not a breeder  

Try as you may to rationalise the wrong your brother is doing, whatever makes you sleep at night if you really do love dogs.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

It's not even about my brother anymore. It's the fact that you people sit there defending breeders that are breeding to standard and showing their dogs and health testing them, ignoring the fact that the dogs LOOK horrible. You can sit there and say the working dogs don't look like that and all that BS. Well the show dogs do..and if you really loved the breed so much you would do something about it.

At least there's people out there trying to change it. Making the effort to health test their dogs and breed them different because they feel that the standard they are being bred to now is wrong. Apparently the show GSD standard is the correct one and all the working GSDs aren't being bred to the correct standard. So it's amazing that show breeders aren't sitting there saying that breeders of the working GSD are doing it wrong and shouldn't be breeding their dogs to look like that.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

You never said a word about this dog.. so I took your images and then drew the lines on my own dog. She has a steep croup and a slightly open shoulder angle.. but is very very sound. She is a spay.. but I know someone who is breeding dogs that look like this and yes, they are American Lines and yes, the sire is an AKC Ch and the dam was AKC Ch Pointed. She is standard size (70 pounds) and is 24 inches. 

Oh yeah.. she could be stacked better (more square in front) with a higher head position but I grabbed this with no helpers. Not a perfect dog (easty westy in front and loose feet) but sound thru and thru. 









<shrug>

I find it interesting that the OP has stepped aside on this thread and xoxluvablexox has kind of taken it over and gone from someone who appeared to be looking for information and was disgruntled with where the GSD breed has been taken to someone who has 25 years experience with the breed.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

You bet true breed enthusiasts will press for breeding to a standard. Without a standard GSDs would cease to be. You are calling for a change to those whom aren't to a standard (albeit your own standard) but refuse to see that having a standard is what has kept breeds around. 

I am not a fan of alot of the American showlines and even some of the German Showlines. I am definetly a fan of Germany's breeding practices and 'regulations' as opposed to those here. Even if they don't work all the time at least there is an effort being put forth to keep the GSD a working/herding breed.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Like other things everyone has an opinion, and I believe in the right for all to express your opinion  My showline bitch has found and saved a human life and provided me with six years of working pleasure. I found her unworthy of breeding personally because I care about my breed and I wont pass on allergies. She was given SG rating in US Sieger show for her age class. She tends herd all day long and is still sound and ready for more work. She tracks and does hurdles and will not hesitate to take out a decoy. Good for a dog you say is wrongly bred huh? What have you ever done with dogs to give you the right to judge them with knowledge instead of regurgetating found online views of other people who have never experienced working a high caliber dog?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yvonne's dog sounds like my last dog (Kazi) who I also elected not to breed (and she had no allergies). 

Once you have had a dog like this you are soooo hooked on the breed. 

Kazi was my other right hand when I had the farm. The cows respected her... Me? I was just the food delivery system and the milk take away system... LOL


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

During one discussion, Hans made the statement that the obsession with hips can contribute to the downfall of the breed, and further implied that it was almost as bad as the obsession with color (black/reds and black sables). 

I could not agree more.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I do not understand the color reference unless you are speaking of dq colors such as whites/livers/blues?


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I am speaking of fads and people catering to the market by breeding "black sables! super dark black and reds!" and the obsession with wanting a black/red or black sable. According to Hans, this is not so much different from the obsession with hips.

And I am in full agreement.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Because they are promoting breeding dark pigment. It has nothing to do with just color. A washed out pigment is first sign of a downhill slide in breeding prospects in many breeds and is a basic.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The last consideration IMO is color (unless it is a DQ color). Atka is a light sable and people fault her. I don't care. Kazi was a fading Black and tan. Great dog. 

Hips are important but the rest of the dog counts too. Again.. I go back to my horse and cattle breeding background. A cow with excellant legs and feet and an udder that dragged on the ground was no more useful than a cow with a lovely udder and bad legs. 

You MUST be able to see the forest for the trees! 

My best conformation cow line (all OC = Off Color) all developed lymphosarcoma.... One of my poorest looking lines milked like the devil on crooked legs and lasted into their teens. 

No such thing as perfection. If anyone gets it, the rest of us can quit and buy from them.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well, I've given up on luvable and am not going to even respond anymore. She's not interested in LEARNING anything. Just justifying breeding out of standard.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

There was a list of all liver gsd known producers online once. It was posted by some enthusiasts of the white gsds and they took it down once they saw it used to show that white gsds had the highest rate of throwing livers and that even the colored ones on lists had history of whites in the litters. Livers are known in our breed for genetic issues. I want more study done on this. Lack of pigment in dogs in any breed calling for proper pigmentation has a valid reason.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I guess if the hip issues were purely cosmetic I could see comparing that to color. I also agree that color is not high on my priority list. Health, temperment, drives are what defines a dog/bitch- not it's color.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Was not the white GSD considered part of the breed at one time? I think I recall reading that. Just asking.. not supporting white GSD's at all (or their production or any other OC production).


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

When people breed for color alone ie: white shepherds and do not test for working they then loose the essence of the gsd as much as AKC did and finding breeders of whites doing working titles is a rarity because they are already breeding DQ so why mind that they are not following proving the dogs as well? 

My first two gsds was a bi color who I say is the best gsd I ever met and he was a 70's AKC second was a white I saved from being culled which back then meant death in 70's so I am not speaking this because I hate white gsd and I love bi colors with a passion. I love sables too, especially red sables. There is nothing wrong with a silver sable dont know who would give grief about that never heard of it before being an issue anywhere. Unless perhaps other sable owners are giving yall grief? As long as dog has good pigmentation I love sables.

No, white gsd was never the goal in the breed. Some of the dogs used to make gsd were cream/white and it was being bred out of them in the original vision of the gsd. A white herding dog is a guardian breed herding breeds need to be dark colored to be visible against the sheep remember flocks gsds are used on are not just a handful rather they number in the hundreds to thousand. Guardian breeds are meant to blend in to the herd to work their job.

Many opinions on the internet and you can always find someone saying the same thing you want something to be. But remember internet info is only as good resource wise as the poster is. I can be found wrong on things to to know best do not go by who makes a good sounding argument always go back to original sources and research it yourself. In this case read the founder of the breeds book as it has been a great inspiration to me as well all these years. Original print of course are much sought after but you can still buy a reprint from amazon.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yvonne said:


> When people breed for color alone ie: white shepherds and do not test for working they then loose the essence of the gsd as much as AKC did and finding breeders of whites doing working titles is a rarity because they are already breeding DQ so why mind that they are not following proving the dogs as well?
> 
> My first two gsds was a bi color who I say is the best gsd I ever met and he was a 70's AKC second was a white I saved from being culled which back then meant death in 70's so I am not speaking this because I hate white gsd and I love bi colors with a passion. I love sables too, especially red sables. There is nothing wrong with a silver sable dont know who would give grief about that never heard of it before being an issue anywhere. Unless perhaps other sable owners are giving yall grief? As long as dog has good pigmentation I love sables.
> 
> No, white gsd was never the goal in the breed. Some of the dogs used to make gsd were cream/white and it was being bred out of them in the original vision of the gsd. A white herding dog is a guardian breed herding breeds need to be dark colored to be visible against the sheep remember flocks gsds are used on are not just a handful rather they number in the hundreds to thousand. Guardian breeds are meant to blend in to the herd to work their job.


I know white was not a goal, but was it at one time accepted (or was that the cream color?). I know that in the 70's breeders killed white puppies.. for being white... history is filled with stuff like this. *sigh*



> Many opinions on the internet and you can always find someone saying the same thing you want something to be. But remember internet info is only as good resource wise as the poster is. I can be found wrong on things to to know best do not go by who makes a good sounding argument always go back to original sources and research it yourself. In this case read the founder of the breeds book as it has been a great inspiration to me as well all these years. Original print of course are much sought after but you can still buy a reprint from amazon.


Please provide the name of the book and author (again if you have already given it). Winter is around the corner and I have no TV...


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Some tried to get the whites accepted but it never really took off as they were also banned from doing police/military work because they were highly visible targets to give away the soldiers/police position and put them in danger. I personally do not believe they should be killed. I also believe if they want to breed them and not adhere to the criteria the gsd people have to for their dogs then they should just be their own breed. They cannot expect to have the best of both sides breeding how they want with no responsibility to keep it a real gsd.

Please read:
German Shepherd In Word And Picture by Max Von Stephanitz many places sell it for about 60-75 dollars.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks Yvonne! Will read it. 

I do not disagree on what you have said here about White GSD's. 

BTW except for the pigmentation your dog (as pictured in your sig) looks much like my Kazi. I love this breed and Kazi got me there. Questa.. we shall see where we go with her!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Pigment is in the leather rather than the color itself, the way I see it. A white can have fantastic pigment. People breeding specifically for deep reds and black sables do more of a disservice to the breed, narrowing the gene pool by breeding only the darkest of dogs or only excellent hips. 

I will sooner take a pup from a breeding of two OFA fair parents with great nerve and strong natural aggression than I would from one of two OFA excellent parents with okay nerve. The only thing that should be strived for is the total dog. When all focus is put on hips or on coat color, compromises are made, most likely compromises in working ability or even overall functional structure and conformation. I would never disregard a breeding of two fantastic working dogs if one parent is OFA Fair. And of ZW scores? What is the cut off for you? And will you only breed GSDs with 0/0 hips? This type of nit-picky mindset is what I personally avoid, especially in the breeders I will choose to work with. 

As far as whites, I am thinking of white German Shepherds as opposed to White Shepherds/White Swiss Shepherds. Whatever happened to the belief “No good dog is a bad color”? Whites have been in the breed for a long time. A prominent exhibitor of white GSDs once told me that a friend of hers had imported a black/tan German Shepherd from Germany to breed to her white GSD, in hopes of outcrossed white factored puppies with good conformation. To her surprise, she had white puppies in the litter, as the imported German showline was a white factored GSD. 

I have known many white GSDs proven to be better working dogs, better representatives of the GSD breed than many show lines I have met, American and German. With what we now face in the breed, will we disregard excellent dogs for their coat color? A white GSD has produced an AKC and Canadian KC Champion, as well as a pup in training for Schutzhund. And I have seen many whites herd without a problem.
No, white German Shepherds were never a goal. But neither were black sables and black and reds. We were never meant to aim for color. The TOTAL DOG is the goal. And if a white GSD is a good representative of the total dog, why should that dog be cast aside and culled for its coat color?

I will repeat this – “no good dog is a bad color”. That’s the belief I stand by.

The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Picture is an EXCELLENT book and highly recommended. I got it for my birthday, and it is well worth the small price.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Most welcome! I would love to see Kazi pics  I also look forward to trading stories with my dogs and your Questa.

How can you say no good dog is a bad color when you have done nothing but down red and blacks for being just that?


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I have not, I have “downed” breeding FOR black/reds and black sables and bi-colors and blanket backs. It is the goal behind the breeding, not the color of the dog itself.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Yes, I have seen and referenced that link myself many times. Very informative and an excellent site.


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## cavaliermom (May 28, 2008)

Check out Leerburg Kennels in Wisconsin - they have a website - lots of great working GSDS and I think he breeds Mainois as well.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Shawlein is awesome.. love it. 
I have few photos of Kazi. 

I will see if I can find something and scan it. She was born in 1992 and Xeph added her to the Pedigree Data Base. Tanaquil's Kazi.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Leerburg no longer breeds German Shepherds.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Nope his money is in video and gear sales.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Neither of which I'll purchase, lol


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Agreed, I made the collars he sells in the early 80's and can make them for 2.50 each and three mins lmao


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Leerburg has some good videos and equipment... but for the most part Ed is awfully close minded and full of it. I do enjoy some of the Leerburg videos, though. 

By the way Yvonne, don't think I have anything against black/reds. It's among my favorite color/coat pigment on a GSD, right up there with black sables and a dark blanket back or bi-color  Your Aleit is gorgeous, as is your new puppy.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Agreed about Leerburg and thanks about my dogs.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Neither of which I'll purchase, lol


 

I really like their french hinge bait bag...


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I really like their french hinge bait bag...


I think Premier makes a similar one, and I've been casually on the hunt for some hardware to make the same thing. It should be pretty simple with some canvas or duck cloth and a sewing machine, but I'm having trouble finding an unembellished French hinge. Some of his gear is nice, but not unique, and the videos are poorly produced hogwash.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yeah, I don't want to support his closeminded views, so I don't buy his products.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Well, I already have one, but I agree, not special or unique in any way is any of their stuff. I bought an orbee from them and some treats though too... just because I can't get stuff like that around here. It's unique to me, I suppose.


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