# Gracie may be on borrowed time...



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

and it may be for her own good.

As many of you know, we have been dealing with Gracie's anxiety issues for some time. We had heron prozac for a while, but she had some seriously unwanted side effects. (Fear, not eating, etc.), Hubby decided to try her out of her crate and see how that went, and it went well. Then we had to take her off Prozac, and all was well.

Until today.

She has been showing signs of more and more anxiety lately...whining, pacing, etc. A lot of it has to do with the weather, I am sure, and a lot of it has to do with the fact she has been off prozac for nearly a month.

Today I came home to find she had tried to chew through my back door. She had aso gotten a towel out of the kitchen (one that has been hanging there forever) and chewed it to bits. The towel, I am not so worried about...it's a towel. The door, however, is another story.

She chewed through The wooden strip at the base of the door and she started on the wood frame itself. She managed to chew a good 7 inch trip out of the door...and a small section of the door frame.

I am heartbroken and at a loss. We have tried so many things with her...prozac, supplements, crated, not crated, bully sticks, interactive toys, treat balls, more toys than a dog could ever want, TV is on...someone comes home partway through the day to let her out. You name it, we have it covered. We work on calm coming and going, training, behavior modification...

Hubby said we may have to seriously consider rehoming her because we just don't know what else to do and now that she has started to show this destructive behavior, we aren't sure if she will continue it or if it was a fluke of the day. We may have to go back to crating her, and that is an worse option almost because of how anxious she is in there.

I have called the vet and they have a new supplement they want us to try...it is called Anxietol (I think), It isn't a drug...it is all natural. I haven't seen any reviews or heard anything about it.

Yes, things were different for her today--hubby left at 7:15 and my mom came to let her out at 11. Mom left at 11:30 and I was home by 3:30...to a destroyed door.

No flames, please. There comes a time when I have to start thinking about what is best for Gracie. I love her and don't want to rehome her, but what if she is just a dog who needs someone home all the time? 

I hope you all know that isn't what I want, but there comes a time when you have to start thinking about all your options...even the ones you may not like. I fear rehoming would just cause more problems for her...abandoned again...and that breks my heart worse than all of this.

So, DF friends...what do I do? I am trying to work through all of this, but just as we have a success, we have a huge setback. Top it off with the fact that she has severe struvites and we have a mess of a dog here.

Please be straight with me. You all know I want to make it work, but I am having trouble finding out HOW to make it work.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

I think you are incredibly dedicated and loving to your dog , first off. Wow , it really sounds like you tried everything. What happens in her crate? If it completely makes her a wreck with no relief in sight I can see how it won't be a good solution .

Sorry you are going through this 

I don't know much about your dog. How is she when you are home? if it is a severe incurable separation anxiety thing , is there any way she can go to a daycare , dog sitters or stay with a friend who is home during the day at all? I would hate to see you have to rehome her and I know cost is a factor with the sitter or daycare:/

Maybe this new medication would work. Did she get relief with the prozac despite the bad side effects? If so maybe a different med will work without adverse effects.

I just read some of Gracie's journal . I feel for you and it is very admirable that you are trying to help her with such great effort! Good luck , I hope something works for you!


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear about Gracie. You must be so frustrated and sad. Has hubby said you can try the new supplement?


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks for the encouragement...I need it.

Sandy--she did have relief of her anxiety on prozac, but the side effects were outrageous. In her crate she is a barking, drooling, urinating/defecating mess. In the house she is usually good on her own. When we are at home she divides her time between being in the room with us or sleeping in my office by herself. She chooses to sleep either in my office or in our living room at night--she doesn't even sleep in the bedroom with us at all anymore, which is a good sign.

Surprisingly, hubby is doing better with this than I am. He thinks it is more related ot her crystals and less related to her SA. He thinks that she chewed at the back door because she really needed to go out and no one was here to let her out. That may be, but I still think she has some anxiety...well, I know she does.

As far as the new supplement, he doesn't want to do it. He wants to put her back on prozac but alternate days. I am not sure that is a good idea considering how she reacts to it. Add that to the fact that she has to eat this Rx food (which she turns her nose up at because it makes her sick) and we are juggling issues.

I ordered some Wysong ph- and that should help clear up the crystals so we may not have to use the food and it may help in the desperate need to pee. Which may, in turn, help the odd behavior.

Now I am just watching her carefully to make sure she didn't eat any of the wood which, in turn, could cause more problems.

I swear--people who say owning a dog is easy obviously never really owned a dog!


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

That's terrible! It sounds like you guys are having a really rough time! 

I'm interested to hear how the Anxietol effects her. Good luck! I also want to recommend asking your vet about Clomipramine, too. Basil is like night and day compared to how he was when he wasn't on meds, or even compared to when he was on the Prozac. 

I really hope you find a way to manage her anxiety that works for you. I hope you won't have to re-home her, but I know you'll always do what's best for her, even if that means finding her a better home.


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## railNtrailcowgrl (Jul 24, 2008)

I'm with Nargle have you spoken to your vet about Clomipramine also know as Chlomicalm?? When I was working on Pebbles SA we used a fairly 'high' dose of CC and it made a TREMENDOUS difference in Pebbles. It helped with her anxiety, but not in the way like Prozac does, it was more like it made her 'mentally' more clear. She was able to learn the coping strategies I was trying so hard to teach her. She was on the full dose for one month and it took about 6 weeks to wean her off it. 

One MAJOR thing to keep in mind with SA is it is a mental disorder, you can't just treat it and forget it. It's a lifetime commitment, and it's important to remember that you will have 'bad days'. For example, Pebs SA has been 'under control' for almost two years now. Though she sleeps in her crate at night, she is claustrophobic and will still panic if 'locked up'. DH was rushing around for work and somehow she got locked into the bath room.  A tipped trash can, shredded t-shirt, and ripped carpet, later...no one is worse for the wear, but it's just a reminder that though she is better, those problems are still there....

ETA-I can sympathize with the trouble your having with your decision of what to do with Gracie. The next 'serious' discussion with my vet would have been euthanasia if the CC didn't work, her SA was that BAD. I wish you the best of luck and don't feel guilty about what ever decision you make, you have to do what you think is BEST for you and GRACIE.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Nargle--we are having a time right now. I broke down and gave her a prozac this evening (it was like 4:30, actually) and already I regret it. She is lethagic, unhappy and not herself. Of course, that also could be the fact she tried to eat a door (will be keeping a close eye on that) and the fact she is on that crap food. 

I don't want to rehome her...I really don't. We love her and we know that if we abandoned her, she would have a hard time trusting anyone again. That is one of the reasons we are keeping that option far on the back burner...but it is still there.

I have heard nothing but good things about Clomicalm...from Nagle, from cowgirl and from a behaviorist who actually suggested it in the first place. It frustrates me that our vet seems to put it out of her mind like it won't help. We want to try it, and since I can't find any information AT ALL about the supplement, I wonder about that.

So tomorrow when I go to the vet, I am going to ask if we can try the clomicalm...they are really starting to seem to be more of a "we know what is best, so do what we say" type place and I am not getting the results that I want. 

I want Clomicalm. They should comply. That's all there is to it.

ETA--I just noticed that my DAP diffuser is getting low. Now, we only have one in a large area, but it is possible that could have something to do with it, too. I will need to refill that soon.



railNtrailcowgrl said:


> I'm with Nargle have you spoken to your vet about Clomipramine also know as Chlomicalm?? When I was working on Pebbles SA we used a fairly 'high' dose of CC and it made a TREMENDOUS difference in Pebbles. It helped with her anxiety, but not in the way like Prozac does, it was more like it made her 'mentally' more clear. She was able to learn the coping strategies I was trying so hard to teach her. She was on the full dose for one month and it took about 6 weeks to wean her off it.
> 
> One MAJOR thing to keep in mind with SA is it is a mental disorder, you can't just treat it and forget it. It's a lifetime commitment, and it's important to remember that you will have 'bad days'. For example, Pebs SA has been 'under control' for almost two years now. Though she sleeps in her crate at night, she is claustrophobic and will still panic if 'locked up'. DH was rushing around for work and somehow she got locked into the bath room.  A tipped trash can, shredded t-shirt, and ripped carpet, later...no one is worse for the wear, but it's just a reminder that though she is better, those problems are still there....
> 
> ETA-I can sympathize with the trouble your having with your decision of what to do with Gracie. The next 'serious' discussion with my vet would have been euthanasia if the CC didn't work, her SA was that BAD. I wish you the best of luck and don't feel guilty about what ever decision you make, you have to do what you think is BEST for you and GRACIE.


Wow. Gracie's SA isn't that bad. In her crate it is, but when she is out, she is usually fine..except today. And I agree that it ia lifetime thing...unfortunately, when she is doing so well, it is easy to forget that and that is my fault. We have been a little lax in the "people ignore her when they come in thing" and we have been giving her a little more attention than we should...we need to get back to that for sure. We are hoping that what is best fo Gracie is to stay here with us...we love her. And, with the exception of this, she is SO good.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

The reason why I decided to go with Clomipramine is because my vet suggested that it is what we should try if the Prozac didn't work. I wasn't able to find very much information on it either (besides the basics) so it was kind of a leap of faith! But I guess the same thing could be said about any drug, especially in regards to mental health. Every animal has a different brain chemistry, and there's no guarantee that it'll work. 

I'm going to agree with RainNTrailCowgirl in that Clomipramine has caused very different results than the Prozac. While Basil was on Prozac, his anxiety was reduced, but not nearly as significantly as when on the Clomipramine. He still had a great deal of nervousness and fearfulness, some of which I believe was actually CAUSED by the Prozac. Now, though, he seems calmer, more receptive to training, has significantly less anxiety when home alone and in other situations that may cause his anxiety (For instance, he's barely reactive at all around other dogs now), and, perhaps I'm anthropomorphizing here... but IMO Basil actually seems HAPPIER now that he's on the Clomipramine. He's always giving me these looks with soft eyes and a relaxed smile. I'm not going to say this is "uncharacteristic," but he seems happier much more frequently than he did before. He definitely seems to be feeling better to me.

Also, I'd like to recommend that you ask your vet about buying generic Clomipramine rather than the name-brand Clomicalm. Clomicalm is REALLY expensive, but I bought a 90 count bottle of 25 mg pills of Clomipramine from my vet for $16. That's just about a 3 month supply. However, the smallest dose they have is 25 mg, and they're capsules, so they're not nearly as easy to cut in half like the chewable tablets if you need a smaller dose. However, I believe that Gracie weighs like twice us much as Basil, right? He's 18 lbs and on one 25 mg pill per day.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Xanax is also an option, too. Don't let your vet prevent you from trying different medicines that might save Gracie's life. If you have to, find a different vet (or a veterinary behaviorist!)


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Nargle--Gracie weighed 36 pounds at the vet on Monday, so I am guessing if I go with a 50 mg pill, I should be good. We can always lower the dosage if we need to and go to 25if 50 seems to high. And the fact that he is less dog reactive makes me very hopeful. That is one of Gracie's biggest problems. That and she is afraid of random people now. Maybe this med will help that, too.

If I go through 1800petmeds, I can get a 30 day supply for like 12 dollars, so I don't think that is too bad.

I am going in tomorrow and requesting they at least let us try it. I am so iffy about the supplement as I have read ZERO reviews and I am sure it will be ridiculously expensive. I figure we can try the Clomicalm (generic, of course) and if that doesn't work, we can go to the supplement. I have nothing against all natural, but I am still leery of it right now. I have found zero canine reviews--all human ones. I am wondering if it is relatively new in dogs.

MissMutt--I won't let them prevent me. I so think my vets often think they are right because they are vets, but...maybe this time they are not.

I do know that we need to get back to the behavior modification a little harder, but that is my fault (and I know it). I will get back on it and hopefully we can get back to walking more...and all of this will work itself out.

Hubby said "it's just a door. We'll get it fixed."

So I guess that's where we stand right now with that.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Hi Yoga. 
Destruction of doorways is classic for SA. She didn't do well on the prozac, because we know she goes off her food on it. So Clomipramine is the next step. Anxitane, the supplement (L-theanine) is a great ADDITION to pharma help but considering her pretty severe anxiety I certainly wouldn't necessarily be thinking that it alone will help. Cracker is on 50 mg of clomipramine per day (originally 100 mg) and does very well, no side effects and just last week spent two and a half hours in the kitchen at puppy class BY HERSELF without panicking. I also give her L-theanine as a supplement twice daily while reducing the dose of clomipramine. It DOES make a difference, but I certainly would not have gone with only it in the beginning when her SA was as pronounced as it was. 

L-theanine is available at good natural food/herbal stores...look for the 'suntheanine' mark on the label as it is the highest quality. 

Your vet needs to get her head out of her butt on this. YOU are the client. She needs to realize that this is most likely not a case of "possible rehoming" as I have to say, honestly and bluntly, that finding a home for an adolescent shepherd/husky with SA and a history of urinary tract crystals will not be an easy rehoming if it can be done at all and that this situation will most likely result in a TERMINAL diagnosis...all from a behaviour issue that given the right pharma assistance could have been greatly modified. 

You can find more information on Anxitane here:

http://www.virbacvet.com/news/article/1106/

And more information on clomicalm:

http://www.clomicalm.novartis.us/

Note that is says that clomicalm is the first medication approved for treatment of SA in dogs.

I hope this helps...


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Cracker--it does help...as always  I am actually surprised that she hasn't done it before now. But, as you said at Christmas, right now she is okay, she didn't hurt herself and this can be fixed.

And great news about Cracker! That is amazing. You and Nargle both are having such breakthroughs that it makes me feel better about all of it.

I agree that they need to get their heads out of their rear ends and listen. I told Hubby that I was going to march in there tomorrow and tell them I wanted a scirpt for clomipramine and that is it. If they won't give it to me, I will get it elsewhere. And the fact that I now know THREE people who have SA dogs who endorse it, plus the behaviorist, I think I have enough that they should say "oh, okay." 

I will look into the supplement in addition to it. I don't think I am going to get it through them, but I will look into it at a local health food store and try that once we get her crystals cleared up. I am also going to be adding Wysong Biotic ph- to her diet in the next few days (if it ever gets here).

I agree that the chances of rehoming her would be slim to none...and that is why I am so very much against that and so very for trying everything I can possibly do to avoid it. I know what we are condemning her to if we don't work through this. Honestly, I was more worried that Hubby would want to rehome, but he is fine. Shocking, but he is.

It's days like this that I am reminded how lucky I am to have a great husband and a forum full of people who are more than happy to help out. I don't know what I would do if I hadn't stumbled upon this site...


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

I would definitely look at natural supplements and other SSRIs/Tricyclates. If your vet won't work with you, find another vet who will. Ideally, you can have your vet refer you or consult with a good vet behaviorist. If there isn't one in your area, several will do telephone consults with primary vets to tweak meds. Often it takes some trial and error to come up with the best med and the proper dosage for the individulal dog. You might also use a thundershirt for when you are home to decrease general anxiety, and for desensitization. But I'm not sure I'd leave it on her long term when you aren't there if she's a big chewer. Here's a great article on SA that may be helpful. http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/sa.htm
The thing about rehoming her is that unless you can find someone who never leaves her alone, new owners are likely to be less understanding of her issues and destruction than you are. Most people want to adopt a nice easy dog. Very few are looking for a "project." And in a new place she is likely to be even more anxious.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

How much exercise is she getting each day? I know with winter many people cut back on walks. I know it won't cure SA, but if she is really getting plenty of long brisk walks a couple of times a day, it may help a little.

Sorry you are having to deal with this.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> I would definitely look at natural supplements and other SSRIs/Tricyclates. If your vet won't work with you, find another vet who will. Ideally, you can have your vet refer you or consult with a good vet behaviorist. If there isn't one in your area, several will do telephone consults with primary vets to tweak meds. Often it takes some trial and error to come up with the best med and the proper dosage for the individulal dog. You might also use a thundershirt for when you are home to decrease general anxiety, and for desensitization. But I'm not sure I'd leave it on her long term when you aren't there if she's a big chewer. Here's a great article on SA that may be helpful. http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002/sa.htm
> The thing about rehoming her is that unless you can find someone who never leaves her alone, new owners are likely to be less understanding of her issues and destruction than you are. Most people want to adopt a nice easy dog. Very few are looking for a "project." And in a new place she is likely to be even more anxious.


I am thinking that we may need a new vet. That makes me sad because we like them for the most part, but because they haven't seen very many cases of SA, I think. I fact, I think this may be only the second case they have had in the history of the practice. 

Unfortuantely, she is not getting as much exercise as she normally does and I know that is contributing...that I will take responsibility for 100%. All the places we normally walk have been ice covered for almost a week...and Tuesday we had torrential rain...and yesterday it all froze...and we got more snow. I am hoping the weather breaks a little and we can get out tomorrow (they say we may get some sun...I don't even remember what that is. We do play and train everyday, but she hasn't had a good walk since Sunday 

In reference to rehoming--I know what you mean. That is why I am working so hard to make sure that we don't have to do that. I am not a quitter and I love her (well, we love her...who am I kinnding). I have pointed out before she is SO GOOD otherwise. And I mean SO GOOD. Every single issue she has (dog reactivity, whining in stores/car, etc.) can be traced to her anxiety. If we can get that under control, I think we will be in good shape.

A behaviorist referred me to another local vet and I may give them a call today to see if they can work with me on her SA. Between the resistance to try clomipramine and the idea that the ONLY SOLUTION for crystals is Rx food, we may (unfortunately) have to find a new vet altogether. 

I don't want anyone to think I am giving up. I am not. I know the reality of what will happen to her if we choose to give up (in fact, I had a nightmare about it last night...literally a nightmare about what will happen to her if Hubby and I can't help her).

I gave her a 20 mg prozac yesterday at 4:30 and she was shown aversion to food by 6:30 last night and again this morning. That is a clear message to me that she either doesn't like the food OR the prozac creates a serious side effect in her.

I will let you all know how the vet call goes. I am hoping well...

ETA: Vet is calling in Clomicalm! She said Gracie will need the 25 mg dose (Sounded low, but I will try it).

Also, another vet with experience with behaviorial issues called me back AND today when I got home., all was well. She did have a prozac yesterday. She ws calm when I came home, not jumping all over me, nothing was destroyed. It just further proves that she needs an anti-anxiety medication...let's just hope the clomicalm is the right one.

Step in the right direction!


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

I've been following what's been going on with Gracie and I'm glad you were able to get the new prescription. I hope it works for her.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

melaka said:


> I've been following what's been going on with Gracie and I'm glad you were able to get the new prescription. I hope it works for her.


Thanks. We hope so, too. The fact that she was so calm when I got home today further showed how much she needs her medication. I am just glad we get to try this new one and see how it goes. It won't be in until tomorrow, so we will have to do without until then. No big deal. Had I ordered it online, we would be waitng seven to ten days. So...fingers crossed. Nargle, Cowgirl and Cracker have had such luck with clomicalm, that I am optimistic...I know every dog is different, but I am still optimistic. And, if 25 is too low, we can always go higher. I know Nargle says that Basil is on 25 and he weighs half of what Gracie does. 

But it is a step.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

I really can't help you much, but I want to say I'm sorry this is happening and I hope you can stumble upon what's best for you guys AND Gracie.
(((hugs)))


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I really can't help you much, but I want to say I'm sorry this is happening and I hope you can stumble upon what's best for you guys AND Gracie.
> (((hugs)))


Your concern is help enough. It always helps to know you aren't alone...thank you for the hug


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Let us know how she does on the new medication.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

theyogachick said:


> Your concern is help enough. It always helps to know you aren't alone...thank you for the hug


I hope things are better today on the Clomicalm!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

We are picking up the Clomicalm today. The more I think about what happened Wednesday, the more I see things differently.

Gracie did not destroy the door we go out of...so it doesn't seem she was trying to get at us. She destroyed the back door--the door she goes out to potty. Conidering she didn't tear up anything else (a towel from the kitchen that may have had food on it doesn't count), it almost seems she was trying everything she could to get outside to potty so she wouldn't go in the house. 

There are shoes everywhere, a jacket was hanging on a chair...there were blankets on the couch that smell like us she could have gone after.

So, even though the chewed up door is bad, I am seeing that it may have been more related to housetraining...

Need to pee=go outside. No human to let me out=find a way out myself.

I told my vet this theory and she said it made sense...

She has been better the last couple of days and we are excited about trying the Clomicalm with her. If it works near as well on her has it has for other dogs on here, we will be thrilled.

I am almost glad she had a little setback. It reminds me that she is not "fixed" and we need to keep working on it.

And keep working we shall do.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

OMG--seriously...OMG

Today while hubby and I were in the basement working on something, Gracie started to CHEW ON THE HARDWOOD FLOOR!

How in the world am I supposed to trust her AT ALL if she is goingto do that when we are in the same house.

SHe chewed where the hardwood meets the carpet and yes, you can tell she did it.

I know part of it is boredom (heck, I am bored, too), but this is ridiculous...


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

theyogachick said:


> OMG--seriously...OMG
> 
> Today while hubby and I were in the basement working on something, Gracie started to CHEW ON THE HARDWOOD FLOOR!
> 
> ...


Have you videoed her when you are gone? To know if she's truly distressed or having a party? The part about her chewing the floor while you are there makes me wonder. Does she have any interactive/puzzle toys? I have a wobbly toy that dispenses food which will keep some of my guys entertained and busy for hours.


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## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

I am not sure what it is about hardwood floor but I think dogs either really hate it or really love it...when lela gets bored she will lick an ULTRA clean spot on our hardwood floor and when it can't possiably be cleaned anymore she starts to try and bite at , now thankfully we have no carpet-to-hardwood areas for her to really get a grip at but if she could yea she would totally destroy our hardwood floor. I second paws and try to record her when you are not in the room and see if she is truly distressed or just having a blast.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

To help with her crystals have you tried giving her vitamin C? Since Lloyd had issues with getting crystals he has been getting 1000mg of C in the am and another 1000 in the pm. He has been off the prescription food for about a month and a half and so far no crystals. 

Will she chew on a bone or eat food when you leave? If so, give her a marrow bone or a kong stuff and frozen when you leave. It will at least help keep her busy. With Nash I have several kongs that I keep in the freezer. I stuff them with some food, treats, canned pumkin and some plain kefir. I alternate between a frozen marrow bone day and one of the kongs the next. It helps get him past the initial panic when we leave. He initially would not eat or chew on things when we left, its taken time but now he does.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I have taped her before. She chews her bully stick, plays with some toys, wanders around whining. She never lays down/relaxes from what I can see, but she isn't in full blown panic mode, either...but I also taped her when she was on prozac. I taped her in her crate once and it was full blown panic for three and a half hours...

She will play with treat balls, but anything that takes a lot of effort, she gives up. I have a tug jug that she will not try to solve. She just stares at it. But the Kong treat ball that you can roll around, she will do that. Today I hid a toy undera bowl and she kind of looked at me like "what am I supposed to do with that?" Eventually, she figured out how to work it out and she seemed to enjoy it. She is sleeping now.

The thing that got me today is that we were home...and we were downstairs for like 5 minutes when we heard some odd noise coming from upstairs. I thought she was rolling a ball around, but she was there, chewing on the floor. :doh: When I said "Gracie, NO!" she got up and ran off very quickly...

When we go downstairs normally (we are working in finishing the basement) she usually sits at the top of the stairs and whines a little and then lays down and waits for us to come back up. She won't go down the stairs right now because they are not carpeted...

I know that most of this is my fault. We have not been able to walk or anything in a week because the weather has been so bad...and yesterday when the weather finally broke enought for me to get her out, I was sick...today it sleeted, rained, snowed and iced...so no walk AGAIN today. We have been working on training and other things each day and she does get plenty of play/interactive exercise, but I think she needs the physical. I am thinking of making a flirt pole soon, too, but I don't know how well she would like it.

She is on her second day of Clomicalm (25 mg, twice daily).

And mel--what kind of food are you feeding Nash now? I have been thinking of trying vitamic C, but wasn't sure how much to give considering Gracie's weight.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Have you considered getting a treadmill so she would be able to get LOTS of exercise, every day? They're expensive brand new, but they're generally not too hard to find on kijiji or craigslist.. even a floor model at a retail store will often be discounted by 50% or more.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> Have you considered getting a treadmill so she would be able to get LOTS of exercise, every day? They're expensive brand new, but they're generally not too hard to find on kijiji or craigslist.. even a floor model at a retail store will often be discounted by 50% or more.


We have thought about that...we just haven't had the space for a treadmill. We are trying to get the basement finished, so we may have more space then. The carpet is being installed on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of this week, so we may be able to get something worked out. My husband will be moving his office into the basement which will open up a room upstairs, so we may be able to put one there. Or we will put one in the basement. It wouldn't hurt for us to use it, either 

I will start looking around and see what I can find. We really are working through all of this slowly...and, oddly enough, hubs is dealing with it so much better than I am. I think he actually loves her more than I do...and that is amazing.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

We are going to try the dogs on Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit meal formula. The vet also suggested taste of the wild as a good one for a dog with urinary tract issues. You can give her the same amount (1000 in the am and 1000 in the pm), Vit C is water soluable so they pee out what they don't need. In this case that is a really good thing because it will make the pH of the urine more acidic (which helps with stones). You don't really need to worry about over dosing. You do want to ease up to that amount though as it can sometimes cause an upset stomach if done quickly. I got 500mg pills and gave them just one in the am for a week, then on in the am and pm for a week, then two in the am for a week, then two in the am and the pm. If it seems to upset her tummy to have that much (my dogs haven't had an issue) then go back down to 1500 total. Also, adding canned food to the diet can help too with the stones (more moisture), canned can also be a good thing to freeze into kongs to keep them busy.

Have you tried giving her raw marrow bones? They are the only thing that really keeps Nash ok with me leaving. The frozen kongs help, but he still gets a bit anxious. With the raw (frozen) marrow bone he doesn't even look up when I leave, which is amazing considering how bad he was (he hurt himself badly a few times trying to escape to get to me).

Also, wanted to add . . . 

Have you tried switching to a different type of crate (like if you have a wire one now, trying a plastic) and doing crate games with the new crate?

Nash hated crates when I first got him (and for good reason, he apparently was kept in a crate or other small enclosure for such extended periods of time as a pup he broke multiple bones in his front feet and his hamstrings in his back legs did not develop properly). Playing crate games with him helped so, so much. I can't even describe the difference. While he still would probably prefer to not be in his crate, he no longer panics about it. We also feed him all his meals in the his crate as well.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

melgrj7 said:


> We are going to try the dogs on Nature's Variety Instinct Rabbit meal formula. The vet also suggested taste of the wild as a good one for a dog with urinary tract issues. You can give her the same amount (1000 in the am and 1000 in the pm), Vit C is water soluable so they pee out what they don't need. In this case that is a really good thing because it will make the pH of the urine more acidic (which helps with stones). You don't really need to worry about over dosing. You do want to ease up to that amount though as it can sometimes cause an upset stomach if done quickly. I got 500mg pills and gave them just one in the am for a week, then on in the am and pm for a week, then two in the am for a week, then two in the am and the pm. If it seems to upset her tummy to have that much (my dogs haven't had an issue) then go back down to 1500 total. Also, adding canned food to the diet can help too with the stones (more moisture), canned can also be a good thing to freeze into kongs to keep them busy.
> 
> Have you tried giving her raw marrow bones? They are the only thing that really keeps Nash ok with me leaving. The frozen kongs help, but he still gets a bit anxious. With the raw (frozen) marrow bone he doesn't even look up when I leave, which is amazing considering how bad he was (he hurt himself badly a few times trying to escape to get to me).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info on the vitamin C. I will start that when she is done with her antibiotics (as they can cause stomach upset as well). And good for your vet for offering other suggestions rather than just Rx diet forever.

Where would I get marrow bones? A butcher? When I leave if she has a bully stick she is fine. She just starts to pace and whine when she finishes and realizes that she is alone. When she was in her crate she would do the same thing--finish thing to chew on and then panic. 

She loves her crate...just not when she is in it alone. While we are home she sleeps in there all the time. She has some serious negative association with it when she is alone, though. She was in a rural shelter for nearly 4 weeks, so I am sure that has something to do with it. We had discussed getting a new crate, but when she started to do so well out, we thought we would wait and see. I have tried feeding her in there, but she likes to eat where she can see what Gizmo is doing, so she would never eat from her crate...she is so weird.

And I will look into canned food and canned pumpkin (not pie filling ) for her kong. We aren't giving her peanut butter anymore because it was a little high in sugar (I feel) and we are trying to cut back. I am always looking for new thinks to try.

I also am looking into the King wobbly thing that she can try and get food and treats out of. I only hope she will try it and not stare at it like "WTH am I supposed to do with that?"

And Covertune--I found a treadmill on craigslist for $45! I emailed to ask the guy if it was fully functioning. If it is, that might have my name all over it!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

theyogachick said:


> I have taped her before. She chews her bully stick, plays with some toys, wanders around whining. She never lays down/relaxes from what I can see, but she isn't in full blown panic mode, either...but I also taped her when she was on prozac. I taped her in her crate once and it was full blown panic for three and a half hours...
> 
> She will play with treat balls, but anything that takes a lot of effort, she gives up. I have a tug jug that she will not try to solve. She just stares at it. But the Kong treat ball that you can roll around, she will do that. Today I hid a toy undera bowl and she kind of looked at me like "what am I supposed to do with that?" Eventually, she figured out how to work it out and she seemed to enjoy it. She is sleeping now.
> 
> ...


I have one of these http://www.amazon.com/StarMark-Bob-A-Lot-Interactive-Pet-Toy/dp/B001JQLNB4 and it is adjustable so it can be easy to get food out or more difficult once the dog understands the game. From what you describe it sounds like she may have claustophobia about being crated, but is being a normal destructive unsupervised adolescent around the house.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I get them from Wegmans (a grocery store) most butchers would sell them too I would think. They are really, really cheap and if you give them frozen they keep the dogs busy for a good long while.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

theyogachick said:


> And Covertune--I found a treadmill on craigslist for $45! I emailed to ask the guy if it was fully functioning. If it is, that might have my name all over it!


Awesome! Just be sure it's not a manual one, lol. 

Oh, and I can totally sympathize with Gracie giving up on the "tricky" treat puzzles, George is exactly the same. *rolls eyes*


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> From what you describe it sounds like she may have claustophobia about being crated, but is being a normal destructive unsupervised adolescent around the house.


It doesn't sound that way to me. If she was claustrophobic, I don't think she would love her crate when Theyogachick is home, but freak out in it as soon as she's left alone.

Basil is the same with puzzles some of the time. Sometimes he's kind of lazy, or needs frequent rewards to keep him interested. Other times he's totally focused. His Kong is for when he just feels like licking, his Everlasting Fun Ball is for when he's wanting to play but nothing harder than rolling a ball around and picking up treats, his Waggle is for when he wants a bit of a challenge (one side I cut the prongs shorter than the other, so there are two difficulty levels!) and finally if he's really in the mood to focus, he's got the Tug-a-Jug.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> Awesome! Just be sure it's not a manual one, lol.
> 
> Oh, and I can totally sympathize with Gracie giving up on the "tricky" treat puzzles, George is exactly the same. *rolls eyes*


LOL--I looked up the model online to double check. I thought the same thing...and as far as the puzzles, she is a big baby. She wants everything to come easy and it just doesn't.



Nargle said:


> It doesn't sound that way to me. If she was claustrophobic, I don't think she would love her crate when Theyogachick is home, but freak out in it as soon as she's left alone.
> 
> Basil is the same with puzzles some of the time. Sometimes he's kind of lazy, or needs frequent rewards to keep him interested. Other times he's totally focused. His Kong is for when he just feels like licking, his Everlasting Fun Ball is for when he's wanting to play but nothing harder than rolling a ball around and picking up treats, his Waggle is for when he wants a bit of a challenge (one side I cut the prongs shorter than the other, so there are two difficulty levels!) and finally if he's really in the mood to focus, he's got the Tug-a-Jug.


I agree about the claustrophobia thing. I thought about that as well, but since she chooses to go in there and sleep, she doesn't seem to mind the crate itself. And if I shut her in it, she is fine as long as she can see/hear me.

You have a TON of toys for Basil. Gracie has a treat ball, a Kong and her tug-a-jug. I am looking into other toys for her, too, so I will look into the ones you use for Basil. I think he and Gracie sound like they may be a lot alike in personality.


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

When Buffy was younger I used to give her the tug-a-jug without the rope in it. It makes a mess because it rolls all over the place, but she did have fun spinning it around to get the food out.

And, sorry to hear about the setback. My friends' Vizsla has mild SA and once chewed a hole in their dining room floor while one of the owners was a few feet away, cooking dinner in the kitchen. She had thought he was banging a bone around on the floor, and didn't look closely at what he was doing until the damage was done. And he is a very well-exercised dog.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Treat toys can take a while to get used to for dogs who are anxious..they get frustrated faster and give up. There are some toys out there that are adjustable for difficulty so you can up the ante once they figure out the first level. Cracker in the beginning of her SA wouldn't touch ANYTHING left for her, gradually she would eat treats left for her, then a bully stick, then a stuffed kong etc. As Gracie's anxiety lessens you may find her more willing to work at the treat toys. 

Sorry about the floor thing...dogs are weird.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hopefully the floor thing was more about less exercise lately than anxiety? That sounds like something Maisy would do when she hasn't been walked in a few days. *fingers crossed*

I'm glad you have the clomipramine. Good luck, I've been thinking about you but don't really have much to add. Keep us all posted.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Cracker said:


> Treat toys can take a while to get used to for dogs who are anxious..they get frustrated faster and give up. There are some toys out there that are adjustable for difficulty so you can up the ante once they figure out the first level. Cracker in the beginning of her SA wouldn't touch ANYTHING left for her, gradually she would eat treats left for her, then a bully stick, then a stuffed kong etc. As Gracie's anxiety lessens you may find her more willing to work at the treat toys.
> 
> Sorry about the floor thing...dogs are weird.


That's exactly how Basil was. He still gets finicky about his toys, but the calmer/less anxious he gets, the more he "acts like a dog." I used to put a few kibbles in his Kong and it would take him quite a while to figure it out. But now he's like "SLLUURRPP! Seconds please?" :biggrin1:

One thing you can do that's really fun but still really easy is have "scavenger hunts." Hide little piles of kibble around a room, and leave them in obviously visible corners and such. Once she's a pro at it, up the ante and start obscuring the kibble from view with things she has to walk around. Now I can put kibble anywhere and Basil will sniff it out! Two of my favorite places are hidden on a shelf (So he has to think in three dimensions rather than just worrying about the floor) and inside noisy tall things that he has to physically move to get the treats out, like a big paper grocery bag.

ETA: Just want to put this out there as a theory as to why Gracie was chewing on the floor, but is there a chance that a bug could have crawled under or a treat got stuck under the part where the wood meets the carpet, and she was just super interested in getting it?


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Took Gracie for a nice long walk today--nearly an hour. She is sacked out pretty good right now.

I think I am going to get her tug-a-jug out and put some good treats in there and just leave it where she can see it and see if she decides to give it a shot. She loved working out how to get her toy out from under the bowl yesterday and we play hide and seek with toys, treats and me often as well. She has a hard time finding the treats sometimes and starts whining, but she eventually gets it.

Cracker--thanks for the advice. I think you may be right and she just gets anxious and frustrated about the toy and gives up. SHe may get better at it later.

She left the floor alone all night last night and while we were sleeping and she hasn't touched it all day today.

And Nargle--I thought about that! The treat ball was a few feet in front of her so I wondered if something fell down there. It just seemed so odd that she would chew on the floor...and no where else.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

We are on day three of Clomicalm and, if it is possible, she is more anxious.

She is whinier, clingier and more restless.

This of you who have used this, is it normal for he to react this way at first as she adjusts.

Here is her dosage: 25 mg capule 2 times a day.

Friday: 25 mg in evening (first day on new meds)
Saturday: 25 mg in AM; 25 mg in PM
Sunday: 25 mg in AM; 25 mg in PM
Monday: 25 mg in AM (so far).

With prozac, we saw results right away (within 24 hours her anxiety was noticably lower).

I am thinking of pairing it with the l-theanine to see what happens, but I am unsure of the dosage, so if anyone can help me out with that it would be great. She weighs 36 pounds.

Thanks for everything!


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

That doesn't sound right at all.. you should see some results with the Clomicalm within 2 hours of giving it, I believe. I don't know what the mg/kg dosage is supposed to be, but maybe she isn't on the right dose?


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

That's weird, I don't think Basil got any more anxious when he first started Clomipramine. However, a few days after we started him on the medication, he DID have a big fearful episode involving confetti poppers. It also didn't seem to completely calm him until after about a week and a half, too. But he was not in a constant state of increased anxiety, his anxiety did seem reduced overall. 

Perhaps she needs a little more time to adjust? Maybe after a week or so she'll feel better. And also, perhaps she may even need her dosage adjusted. IIRC, the dosage is .8-1.5 mg per pound per day, correct? Maybe she needs like a pill and a half per day?


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I saw a difference in Cracker's levels of anxiety in about ten days or so...but remember that the "odd feeling" that happens with new meds can actually make her feel strange enough to be more vocal because she doesn't know why she feels weird...make sense? Clomicalm does not have a sedative effect like the reconcile can so it may simply be that the reduction in anxiety you saw on the other meds was not really a reduction in anxiety, but a sedated (less apt to SHOW anxiety) effect. Whenever I started antidepressants I felt like my head was lost in space for a good couple of weeks before the chemistry settled in. 

It is also important to know that as much as both Reconcile and Clomicalm are antianxiety/antidepressants, they work in different ways. 

Give it time. 

Dosages for the Anxitane (l-theanine) are listed on the website and yes they can be given together.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I saw a difference in Cracker's levels of anxiety in about ten days or so...but remember that the "odd feeling" that happens with new meds can actually make her feel strange enough to be more vocal because she doesn't know why she feels weird...make sense? Clomicalm does not have a sedative effect like the reconcile can so it may simply be that the reduction in anxiety you saw on the other meds was not really a reduction in anxiety, but a sedated (less apt to SHOW anxiety) effect. Whenever I started antidepressants I felt like my head was lost in space for a good couple of weeks before the chemistry settled in.
> 
> It is also important to know that as much as both Reconcile and Clomicalm are antianxiety/antidepressants, they work in different ways.
> 
> ...


This does make sense...and it would make sense why the prozac would show more immediate results. She was sedated...not necessarily relaxed.

I figured she just needed some time, but I wanted to ask around to see.

On a positive--we had a Superbowl party last night and although she was a little antsy, she didn't jump up on anyone, she din't bark at anyone and she didn't make a pest of herself. She showed interest in my 2 month old neice, but she wasn't obsessed...she was really good. She and my 6 year old neice played for a while and then cuddled up on the floor with her. 

and I took the rope out of the tug-a-jug for her to see what she would do...she is playing with it on and off (I put a small bully stick in it and she REALLY wants it) so she is at least giving it a shot from time to time. 

We will stick with it. This week is a good week to start new meds--Hubby will be home half days for the next few days, so she won't have to be alone for too long. Thursday might be a challenge, but we will work it out.

I will keep you all updated.



Nargle said:


> That's weird, I don't think Basil got any more anxious when he first started Clomipramine. However, a few days after we started him on the medication, he DID have a big fearful episode involving confetti poppers. It also didn't seem to completely calm him until after about a week and a half, too. But he was not in a constant state of increased anxiety, his anxiety did seem reduced overall.
> 
> Perhaps she needs a little more time to adjust? Maybe after a week or so she'll feel better. And also, perhaps she may even need her dosage adjusted. IIRC, the dosage is .8-1.5 mg per pound per day, correct? Maybe she needs like a pill and a half per day?


What I read was that as well...which means at 36 pounds she should be on between 28.8 mg and 54 mg a day and they have her on 25 mg/twice a day. I thought she would be on 50 mg once a day, but they broke it into two doses. It has only been three days, so I know I am most likely expecting too much (as always) and will just have to be patient. I guess we have just been through so much with her that I wish I could just snap my fingers and make her better...lol. If it were only that easy!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I can't recall reading this, but is her dose going to be increased? It's very common with clomipramine to start at a lower dose at first and then increase weekly.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

they didn't say anything about increasing the dosage...only if we need to.

I am going to add the anxitane as well. I think I will order it through somewhere other than the vet because their prices are high.


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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Eek, I'm glad the others chimed in with their knowledge about the meds, I was obviously WAY off base! Sorry!


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