# Hold Dog's Snout when she Challenges my Authority?



## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

Hi folks,

Sometimes my maltipoo will disobey a direct order. Is it an acceptable form of discipline to hold a dog's snout when they do this? I read somewhere that that's how dogs demonstrate dominance.

For example, I walk into a room, with the dog at my heels, but she stops at the entrance. I say "come on," meaning follow me into the room. She's done it 1000 times and know exactly what I mean--but occasionally she turns and runs the other way.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Sure if you want to end up with a dog that bites you.

Go back to teaching recall/heel. Use a high value treat like some kind of meat/hot dog pieces. Give her a piece, then say come, and reward with a piece.

The reaction you are getting almost sounds fearful. Do you engage in training in that room, or has she had an accident in there and been scolded?

Get rid of the idea that the dog is trying to dominate you, and that you need to dominate her. Read up on positive reinforcement.


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks for the advice.



spotted nikes said:


> The reaction you are getting almost sounds fearful. Do you engage in training in that room, or has she had an accident in there and been scolded?


Nah.. it's not fear. It's boredom. The room she refuses to enter is my home office. She spends a lot of time in there with me. After I walk her in the morning, she knows that once we go in, we're in there for a long time (the whole work day). 

So I can understand why she wouldn't want to go in; honestly, I don't want to be in that room all day either. However, as a member of the working class, I have to be at my desk during the day, and IMO it's better to have her in there with me as opposed to both of us being alone in separate rooms all day.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Run from a place she's going to be bored in - now that's a reaction.

Maybe have some fun in there? If she's associated the room with boredom, and she goes in there (if she's done it 1000 times...) maybe sometimes bring her in there when NOT work time and have some fun with her? 

Show her that it's not always boring in there. Also when it is work time, maybe give her a little attention when you have a bit of time from your work, give her treats for waiting like a good girl, let her get up and stretch a little. Do a few fun tricks she likes that can be done without much space. Things like that to "break up her day" and maybe remove the association of boredom with one of hopeful anticipation. "Maybe fun doesn't ALWAYS happen, but it COULD happen!" kind of mentality 'programmed' inside her.

Like for Wally, I take a couple minutes to let him jump up on me (he's small) and play with him. Tease him with his rope bone and let him grab it. Or play catch with him, or even do some fast, easy training (usually play my "Rapid cues" game where I quickly throw out lots of cues he knows inside and out and he has to perform them quick or else *I* eat his reward)

Then I ask him to go back to his spot, stay, and give him a reward for waiting like a good boy (even though he's staring in me with anticipation like in my avatar).


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

Thanks for the advice. Lately my back has been bothering me because I've been sitting too much, and the woman said that I should be taking more breaks during the day. Heck, if I need breaks, I'm sure the puppy does too.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I would get her into the habit of realizing that entering the office = nice yummy thing to chew on/eat and a nice place to lay. I bet in no time she'll be running into the office.

Look into things like kongs (which can be stuffed with goodies), bully sticks, and treat dispensing toys to alleviate boredom. If you give them to her only or predominantly in the office, she'll start to associate the place with something good and fun.

As long as she's reliably housebroken, I also wouldn't worry about you and her sharing separate rooms for several hours - for those who have full time jobs and don't work at a place where their dog can join them, they leave dogs home for upwards of 8-9 hours sometimes. Alone time can be good for a dog.


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> Alone time can be good for a dog.


Good point... it's hard sharing an office with anyone.

I just took a 5-minute break to play with her, and she's better.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

tangoking said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> 
> 
> Nah.. it's not fear. It's boredom. The room she refuses to enter is my home office. She spends a lot of time in there with me. After I walk her in the morning, she knows that once we go in, we're in there for a long time (the whole work day).
> ...


Let me put it this way. If your boss decided to give you a good thump across the head if you voiced to him that you didn't particularly care for spending your whole day at work, you would probably learn to do what avoided getting that thump on the head. But wouldn't it be nicer if your boss gave you random breaks or a bonus check when you told him how you felt? Same thing with the dog, IMO  
You can grab her by the snout if it makes you feel better, but it probably won't do a bit of good in changing her attitude towards the room. Does she have anything to do in that specific room (something to chew on, play with, etc)? If she's bored, no wonder she wants to avoid the Boring Room


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

tangoking said:


> Thanks for the advice. Lately my back has been bothering me because I've been sitting too much, and the woman said that I should be taking more breaks during the day. Heck, if I need breaks, I'm sure the puppy does too.


I think you're 100% spot on  I'm not sure what your profession entails, but in mine (and also, my hobbies) I've found it extremely beneficial to take 5-10 minutes away from the project at hand to do something else. If I'm struggling with it, usually whatever needs changed will literally jump out at me after I've stopped staring at it for so long!


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Let me put it this way. If your boss decided to give you a good thump across the head if you voiced to him that you didn't particularly care for spending your whole day at work, you would probably learn to do what avoided getting that thump on the head. But wouldn't it be nicer if your boss gave you random breaks or a bonus check when you told him how you felt? Same thing with the dog, IMO


True, true... but, sad to say, if I don't show up for work I get will get some form of a "thump on the head."



LazyGRanch713 said:


> You can grab her by the snout if it makes you feel better, but it probably won't do a bit of good in changing her attitude towards the room.


I agree that grabbing her by the snout is a bad idea, and will not do that.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> Does she have anything to do in that specific room (something to chew on, play with, etc)? If she's bored, no wonder she wants to avoid the Boring Room


Well, yes, but she quickly grows bored with the toys. I think that the bottom line is that life isn't all fun and games. Some hours will be more boring than others, and she has to learn how to handle it. Just like we all do.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

Is there some reason that you feel that the dog has to stay in the room with you at all times?


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

brandiw said:


> Is there some reason that you feel that the dog has to stay in the room with you at all times?


I was thinking that it's better to have her in the room with me all than to be alone. But I'm starting to think that maybe some of the time I will put her into a room where she is alone for a few hours per day.

Note that I'm not the owner. The dog belongs to my roommate's girlfriend, who works all day.

My current schedule looks like this:

8am: walk
9am-12pm: office with dog.
12pm: owner (roommate's gf) comes home and says hello to dog
1pm-5pm: office with dog.
5pm: owner comes home from work and takes dog for the evening. Maybe walks her a second time.

I'm thinking that maybe I'll put her into a room alone from 11-12pm, and 3-5pm so that she can look forward to the owner coming home.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

If she's housebroken and not destructive, why not let her roam the house while you work? I almost guarentee that she will end up going into your office voluntarily and sleeping near you.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

tangoking said:


> True, true... but, sad to say, if I don't show up for work I get will get some form of a "thump on the head."
> 
> 
> I agree that grabbing her by the snout is a bad idea, and will not do that.
> ...


I think dogs really benefit from learning how to just "hang out", and realize they don't have to be DOING something 24/7. I have a dog who is extremely high energy (GSD), that is content to schmooze around for hours at a time. I know people IRL who say their dogs go nuts if they aren't being paid attention to constantly (and they use the "high drive" or "high energy" excuse, when it's just poor training and mismanagement). I adore my dogs, but I couldn't live like that. 
Tag had a hard time learning how to settle down and chill, but he finally figured it out. He'd try to pester me to play with him and I'd ignore him. Either he would go amuse himself with a toy and get bored with it 3 seconds later (puppy brains, lol), or he would go find something appropriate to chew on. Usually he'd fall asleep. How old is your dog?


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

My rescue girls hate my home office also.

They have even chosen it as their place to go if they can't hold it while I am out at work all day. luckily it's ceramic tile floor, like the rest of the entire house, with no rug. So that's ok with me.

They will whine, huff, sigh, try to cram themselves between me and the desk, nudge me.. etc.

My big girl Hope has gone so far as to try to tempt me out with toys when I'm in there. Putting her head just in the door, shaking and tossing the toy trying to make me think I'm missing out of the fun, and trying to lead me away if I stand up.

Nevertheless they usually end up sleeping around me in there in the end if I simply won't budge from their antics to get me to leave the room.


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

spotted nikes said:


> If she's housebroken and not destructive, why not let her roam the house while you work? I almost guarentee that she will end up going into your office voluntarily and sleeping near you.


I would love to, but I can't. I have roommates that make this impossible. They leave food laying around (chocolate, onion, etc), they leave doors open, and one is allergic to dogs and doesn't really like her.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I think dogs really benefit from learning how to just "hang out", and realize they don't have to be DOING something 24/7... How old is your dog?


Yes.. I agree! When I'm in my office, it's time to "chill." If I take her for a walk every morning before I start work, it's not so bad. If for some reason I have to skip that walk she starts to act out; hence the snout-grabbing title of this post.

She's a three-year old Maltipoo.



TxRider said:


> My rescue girls hate my home office also.
> They will whine, huff, sigh, try to cram themselves between me and the desk, nudge me.. etc. My big girl Hope has gone so far as to try to tempt me out with toys when I'm in there. Putting her head just in the door, shaking and tossing the toy trying to make me think I'm missing out of the fun, and trying to lead me away if I stand up. Nevertheless they usually end up sleeping around me in there in the end if I simply won't budge from their antics to get me to leave the room.


lol... yes... my pup tries some of the same antics. Tries to distract me... she walks around under my legs, jumps on to the speaker under my desk that I use for a footrest, whines at the door, etc...

lol.. it's hard enough to work all day, and now I have my dog tempting me to go outside an play! I'm thinking, "I'd love to go out, but if I don't work, neither of us will get to eat."


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## tsc (Dec 7, 2009)

well, if you're not the dog's owner, you really shouldn't be doing any discipline without the consent/instruction of the owner. 

If she doesn't want to be in the office and can't roam, stick her in a safe bedroom, and maybe bring her into the office for play breaks. I think you're anthropomorphizing a bit-- if she naps on and off all day, why does she need someone else in the room?


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

tsc said:


> If she doesn't want to be in the office and can't roam, stick her in a safe bedroom, and maybe bring her into the office for play breaks. I think you're anthropomorphizing a bit-- if she naps on and off all day, why does she need someone else in the room?


Well I'd be lying if I said that I don't appreciate the dog's company. It can get tiresome working in a home office alone all day. That being said, she will start crying at the door if left alone in the bedroom for too long. Regardless, it seems like the answer appears to be splitting the time between the office with me, and the bedroom alone.


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## REB (Sep 18, 2009)

This thread about dogs in home offices cracked me up. I work from home, too, and I keep Mac's crate in here so he has a comfy place to settle while I'm working, although he's welcome to roam the house if he wants. Of course, he usually chooses to sleep *on top* of his crate (and he's not a tiny dog), so that he can look out the window if he likes. He's there now. Kind of like Snoopy in Peanuts...


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

tangoking said:


> Hi folks,
> 
> Sometimes my maltipoo will disobey a direct order. Is it an acceptable form of discipline to hold a dog's snout when they do this? I read somewhere that that's how dogs demonstrate dominance.
> 
> For example, I walk into a room, with the dog at my heels, but she stops at the entrance. I say "come on," meaning follow me into the room. She's done it 1000 times and know exactly what I mean--but occasionally she turns and runs the other way.


In the first place, you can't correct a dog for refusing to do something she hasn't been trained to do. In the second place, you can't correct a dog after the refusal if there has been an intervening behavior. Ex: Dog runs away (refusal) and scoots over to her dog bed and lies down (intervening behavior); you correct for the running away, but the dog thinks you are correcting for lying on the dog bed. In this case, the only thing that matters is what the dog thinks she's being corrected for doing.

Teaching a dog what you want her to do is only half the process (more like 20% actually). The other part is making her understand that compliance is expected 100% of the time. That takes lots of repetition.



spotted nikes said:


> Sure if you want to end up with a dog that bites you.


You should not be getting bitten for grabbing any part of your dog. I use the muzzle grab when my bratty dog is getting a bit too "talkative" and won't be quiet. Some dogs don't like to be touched in certain places or handled in certain ways. That's all the more reason to handle/touch the dog in those ways/places. You have to build a level of trust, but the dog needs to know there is nothing off limits to you.


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## tangoking (Feb 18, 2010)

REB said:


> This thread about dogs in home offices cracked me up. I work from home, too, and I keep Mac's crate in here so he has a comfy place to settle while I'm working, although he's welcome to roam the house if he wants. Of course, he usually chooses to sleep *on top* of his crate (and he's not a tiny dog), so that he can look out the window if he likes. He's there now. Kind of like Snoopy in Peanuts...


You should post a pic of that.



Marsh Muppet said:


> You should not be getting bitten for grabbing any part of your dog. I use the muzzle grab when my bratty dog is getting a bit too "talkative" and won't be quiet. Some dogs don't like to be touched in certain places or handled in certain ways. That's all the more reason to handle/touch the dog in those ways/places. You have to build a level of trust, but the dog needs to know there is nothing off limits to you.


Clearly you have more experience in dog training than me. I'm still a newb with less than a year of experience, and she isn't even my dog.


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## REB (Sep 18, 2009)

tangoking said:


> You should post a pic of that.


Sure thing: here's Mac in my home office. This is where he spends a lot of the day. Note that there are toys scattered around the office and throughout the house, and we take a midday walk as a break (for us both). He just prefers the top of the crate!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

*Yes.. I agree! When I'm in my office, it's time to "chill." If I take her for a walk every morning before I start work, it's not so bad. If for some reason I have to skip that walk she starts to act out; hence the snout-grabbing title of this post.

She's a three-year old Maltipoo.*


It's only speculation but it seems kind of odd that she only acts this way when the walk is skipped.


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