# Late Blooming Puppy Question



## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

I'm not sure if she's just a late bloomer or if it is just how huskys develop.

We recently completed Puppy Vet Visit #4 which included the last parvo shot and a talk about spaying (she is 19 weeks old). We also talked about some minor developmental issues like her current inability to hold it until we walk out the door. She'll stop mid stream if I give her an unstartling 'uh uh' and we will walk to the door. The mere 5 seconds we stop causes her to pee a bit, but she knows she has to go outside so she stops and paws the door with very wide eyes that seem to say "hurry up". She will then pee again outside with a relieved face :s. Her attention span is still extremely short and highly distractable. After looking at her teeth, she has some of her front adult teeth but her canine and incisors are still puppy teeth or missing at the moment. He also noticed she wasn't digesting her food when he looked at her stool and suggested we put her back on puppy food for a while longer.


We saw a different vet (same office) for puppy visit #3 who thought she should have more pee control at that visit, however, the vet we saw today thinks she's a late bloomer. Perhaps, with her teeth and other puppy behavior, she is about a month or two behind. The vet was an older gentleman who reminds me of a country vet and calls spaying a hysterectomy. I'm sure he has years of experience. 

So I'm wondering if some dogs can just be late bloomers because, we met up with another 5 month old husky pup who seemed much larger than Sophie. The other husky's parents were of average husky size while Sophie's parents were much larger.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

A few issues:
1. A husky is a large dog and should be on large dog puppy food for 1 year, unless there's something unusual.
2. At 4 - 5 months, most puppies are teething, and their gums are sore as they lose their puppy teeth and grow their adult teeth.
3. A Vet can be a wonderful animal doctor, but they aren't necessarily good trainers or behaviorists.
4. Although housetraining at this age should be a bit more reliable, it won't be perfect until about 6 mos, even then there can be accidents. However, yours sounds like a communication problem ... fine-tuning taking her out, and anticipating her pre-door accident with the "uh-uh" before she even gets started.... She'll get it. 
5. Most puppies are about half their adult weight when they are 5 months old. As far as size or late bloomer, I can't say. However, poor digestion can result in poor nutrition and smaller size... Don't know if that's an issue.
6. I recommend waiting until 6 mos to get her spayed... but before her first estrus.
7. Immediately after she is spayed, she may have some housetraining issues, and she will slow growth for a few weeks.

If she is otherwise healthy, happy, and energetic... size doesn't matter.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I don't agree with much of the above post, but I'll give my input. 

At 4 months and some weeks, she's not behind. Most puppies don't start teething until 4-5 months, so if she isn't done yet, that's normal. Her size could just be the fact that she's a female or her genetics. She may not grow up to be as big as the pup you saw in the office. There is room for variation in the breed, and I would honestly prefer my large breed dog to be much smaller than other dogs at the same age and grow slower for his own sake. Maybe the other dog was on a high calcium food that caused him to grow faster and poorly. You never know. I can tell you that most puppies are NOT half of their adult weight at 5 months. Chihuahuas would be 10lbs and my GSD would be maxing out at 105lbs, which is not happening. 

The fact that she's showing she needs to go NOW is a good indicator and is more advanced than most pups at that age. You'll just have to be pro-active and open doors quickly, distract her from peeing, take her out more frequently, etc. 

Your dog does NOT need to be on a large breed puppy food. You can put her on a high quality all life stages/adult food just fine if the calcium level is low enough. That's all there is that you need to worry about for her growth and development. The fact that she's not getting everything out of her food says one of two things; you're over feeding and she doesn't need that food so it passes, or you're not feeding a good quality food and she's not getting the proper nutrients out/fillers are passing. 

As far as spaying, if you can handle the responsibility, please wait until she's at LEAST a year old to spay her so that her bones and joints can develop as much as possible first. I always recommend waiting until 1-2 years to spay/neuter large breed dogs because spaying prematurely can cause multiple bone/joint issues. The longer you can wait, the better. There is NO need to spay her at 6 months unless she has a health issue or becomes pregnant.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Two issues with the above:

Current guidance from clinical research is to put large dog puppies on large dog puppy food to slow down their growth to allow growth plates to close completely, reducing arthritis and other bone problems. Please ask your Vet about this.

Current protocol is to spay dogs before estrus at about 6 mos, because waiting longer adds to trauma of the procedure. Again, ask your Vet for timing and recommendations.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> Two issues with the above:
> 
> Current guidance from clinical research is to put large dog puppies on large dog puppy food to slow down their growth to allow growth plates to close completely, reducing arthritis and other bone problems. Please ask your Vet about this.


Current guidance is to slow bone growth/development to avoid bone and joint issues from growing too fast. All you need to control is calcium in the food. You can pick any food with the proper calcium (and enough protein for your dogs' exercise needs) and you'll be fine. I know many breeders of large breed dogs and owners alike that would never feed a puppy food. All life stages is just as good, if not more balanced. My vet [any vet] is probably the last person I'd ask about dog food. They shun raw food diets and push science diet. No way would I take their opinion. The people at petsmart know more about nutrition, imo.



> Current protocol is to spay dogs before estrus at about 6 mos, because waiting longer adds to trauma of the procedure. Again, ask your Vet for timing and recommendations.


I've read multiple arguements about spaying before or after the first heat and I believe the majority of evidence says to wait until AFTER the first heat, but I'll admit I don't have a lot of knowledge on this. Regardless, with a large breed dog you should never spay before a year if it is avoidable. Yes, the surgery will be more intensive the older/larger the dog, but it is healthier for them long-term. The risk for bone cancer is significantly increased in the spaying/neutering before a year, and spaying before the first heat had MANY increased health risks. I would also not take my advice from my vet on this. They push early spay/neutering for the hope of lessening the chance of your dog becoming pregnant or impregnating another dog leading to more pet overpopulation. Here are some links to information about speutering large breed dogs, because it seems you are very misinformed. 

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/11/11/1434.full

http://www.baerental.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs-1.pdf


----------



## Conard10 (Sep 25, 2010)

Another debate on when to spay your dog. I recently had to make this decision and was overwhelmed with the contradictory studies and opinions.

In the end, I love my vet and trust her advice the most. It was hard for me to make a decision based on opinions from strangers when I didn't know their background and level of expertise. 

It's great to do your own research and listen to other opinions, but ultimately it's your own decision that should be based on your own circumstances and your vet's recommendation. With that said, sounds like the OP may not be completely comfortable with that vet. If that's the case you may want to find someone you trust.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I find it strange that so many people blindly accept the advice their vets give them without doing any of their own research, as well. Whether it be with spaying/neutering or food, the vets give a lot of bad advice, but people just think that they're the most knowledgable in the field. Unfortunately, that's not always true.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

The problem with recommending the time for spay/neuter in dogs is that it's very, very difficult to do a meaningful study because 

1. Most dogs in this country are spayed or neutered, so it's very difficult to properly choose a control group (ETA: OR to get large enough study groups to be statistically meaningful)
2. Many, many dogs never get proper diagnoses for their medical problems, and there is no good central reporting system for diagnoses, so the true incidence of various problems that may or may not be associated with spay/neuter really aren't even known. This is an area where veterinary medicine really needs to step up.
3. Most people (unfortunately, including people who write the articles) don't really understand epidemiology or statistics and too often mistake correlation for causation.

Personally, there are risks for female dogs spayed after a first heat whose incidence I feel outweigh the risks that may be associated with spay. Male dogs I'm much more comfortable waiting until 12-24 months to neuter. But honestly, there's a lot of arbitrary and "that's the way we've always done it" recommendations made about spay/neuter and I think it's important for people to make up their own minds about risk assessment.

ETA: I also don't like studies or articles that conclude things like "The risk of xyz is 5x in unspayed vs spayed dogs" without giving the actual incidence in either group. If my risk of getting xyz is .01%, then 5x that risk still isn't very significant to me.

ETA: The rottweiler study is pretty well designed but has a pretty small sample size. Because they are so genetically related, I'm not convinced that studies of a single breed can be generalized to all breeds of dogs, but definitely a rottie I'd be more inclined to wait until later to spay or neuter based on that study.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Current guidance from clinical research is to put large dog puppies on large dog puppy food to slow down their growth to allow growth plates to close completely, reducing arthritis and other bone problems. Please ask your Vet about this.


I don't feed my puppies any puppy food at all. I feed an adult/ALS food. I don't believe in large breed anything, whether it's puppy or adult food.

And as for the peeing at the door issue, my solution just be to pick the puppy up. Can't pee on the floor if she's not on it.


----------



## Conard10 (Sep 25, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I find it strange that so many people blindly accept the advice their vets give them without doing any of their own research, as well. Whether it be with spaying/neutering or food, the vets give a lot of bad advice, but people just think that they're the most knowledgable in the field. Unfortunately, that's not always true.


I do agree with you on the above, even though it may not have sounded like it. Finding a good vet is extremely important because many give horrible advice. When I got my first dog I went to the vet my family used growing up and quickly decided he was not the vet for me. 

I decided on my next vet by a referral from a dog trainer we trusted. We've been very happy with her so far. 

Is there's a good way to determine if a vet is "good or bad"?


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

As sassafras says "most people don't understand the epidemiology or statistics." However, even the quoted studies say: "Spaying females before 6 months is less controversial than neutering; preventing the first heat nearly eliminates the risk of breast cancer which is much more common than bone cancer." While the causality of bone cancer, even in the older studies of Rottweillers is not conclusive. 

If you don't trust your Vet for medical advice, I'd wonder why you go to that Vet. 

For medical professionals - human and animal - I follow some guidelines:
1. Referral ... not based on charisma.
2. Certification, training, and interpersonal chemistry - first with my dog, then with me.
3. Confidence in their ongoing education, respect for my education and intelligence ...
4. Humility in their lack of knowledge, willing to look up the information.

I worked with too many "confident surgeons" to blindly trust the authorities. When you work with lots of rocket scientists and nuclear physicists... as well as intelligent wannabees... The one thing that stands out is humility.

So I avoid Vets who are arrogant that they are right and everyone else. They may be good Vets, but if they won't listen to my situation, they aren't right for me.

So I think it is a balance of chemistry, confidence, and humility.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> If you don't trust your Vet for medical advice, I'd wonder why you go to that Vet.


Unfortunately, in many cities and areas there are only one or two vets; this was my issue before I moved. I had no choice but to go to ONE vet, that I did not like. Now I have more choices, and have gotten referrals, but even then, with more to choose from, some lack what others don't in different areas. My vet dealt with my dog well, and respected my decisions and explained things thoroughly with me. However, she was very behind on dog food knowledge (go figure) as she had never heard of Canidae, which is what my dog is eating. She thought it was strange that he had chicken allergies, and thinks neutering him will help his newfound growling problem. On the other hand, she was willing to properly accomodate him during his neuter because of his seperation anxiety and commended us for the steps we've taken in preventing it. *shrugs* 

Basically what I'm saying is; it's hard to find a vet that is perfect in every way and has all the knowledge. They're only human, and they don't know everything.


----------



## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

I really like this veterinary's office because they have delt with Ilya (my adult husky) fear issues with veterinarians. They've even went as far as consulting a university's school of veterinary medicine when Ilya wouldn't go out after being sedated with anesthesia meds. He was still fully awake walking aroung asking to leave. Ilya finally likes on of the veterinarians and that says a lot.

We started giving Sophie adult food (Barking at the Moon) because she doubled her weight in 4 weeks and the vet thought she was growing too fast. She has gained 5 lbs in the last 4 weeks bringing her up to 25 lbs. She also had diarreah the past week but the test they ran didn't show any viruses so it may just be bacteria (?) and she is on antibiotics for the next few days. The vet just thought her food should have been more digested than it was.

Strangely, when I asked the Petco people about the difference of puppy and adult food, they told me there really wasn't very much of a difference except perhaps size of kibbles. I may just look at the mfg website to see if puppy food is designed to be more easily digested.

I guess there may be no telling how big she may be. Her father looked like he was part Mal. Nose was more Mal shapped and heavier shoulders than I see on huskies. He also looked like he could easily weigh 80 lbs. Mother looked like a regular sized husky around 45 lbs.

I know I don't want to have her spayed until I get her housebroken. If she really has weak control I would know before the proceedure and because she has the potential to be large, I do want to wait until she's more mature.

I guess she may be developing as she should be and the vet may just be looking at a snapshot of numbers and issues. I was told huskies grow up before they grow out and Sophie is almost as tall as Ilya



> Can't pee on the floor if she's not on it.


this made me giggle.... she's on the floor because we were afraid she would pee on us.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Most large breed dogs do grow up before out. 1-3 years and they've grown out... usually by 6 months they're as tall as they're getting. 

If you're worried about the food just check the calcium content in what you're feeding. 1.5% or less is ideal for a large breed puppy. 

Diahrea could be from bacteria, or overfeeding, or a diet change. *shrugs*


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> this made me giggle.... she's on the floor because we were afraid she would pee on us.


It's unlikely that she would. It seems to be that moment of standing that makes her want to piddle more. If you pick her up, she'll likely be too concerned with being "up" to pee on you.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Isn't Barking At The Moon their grain-free, high-protein food? I believe it's not recommended for puppies, especially large-breed pups. Or at least that's what dogfoodanalysis says: http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/892

Maybe she is having a bit of trouble with digesting it. This site says that puppies may not be able to process that much protein: http://dogfoodchat.com/solid-gold-barking-at-the-moon/ And it certainly wouldn't be slowing down her growth.

I'd recommend an all-life-stages food.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

In puppy class I was told that some dogs are not housetrained/able to hold it until they are 22 weeks old. That is apparently normal, so at 19 weeks your dog is not necessarily a late bloomer, just one of the dogs that takes longer with housetraining.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> In puppy class I was told that some dogs are not housetrained/able to hold it until they are 22 weeks old. That is apparently normal, so at 19 weeks your dog is not necessarily a late bloomer, just one of the dogs that takes longer with housetraining.


All dogs/puppies can "hold it", some just longer than others, depending on size and age. Dogs can be housetrained at any age, just depends on how often you can get them outside.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree with DJEtzel. You can begin housetraining with a 6 week old puppy. In fact, some good breeders will release puppies at 8 - 12 weeks with initial training begun. However, what they may have wanted to say in puppy class is that puppies may not be fully reliable for housetraining until about 6 months (not sure where the 22 weeks comes from - wonder if it is anecdotal or study based ?).

The general rule of thumb is that a puppy can hold it for about one hour plus one for every month of age, in other words, a 5 month pup can hold it for 6 hours (during the day) and a 6 month pup for about 7 hours. Clearly mileage varies greatly with size, environment, exercise, etc., etc., etc......

Re: Puppy vs. Adult food - For the brands that make different life-stages, you can compare the ingredients fairly straighforward from the lists on the side of the packages. I believe the differences are a matter of degree - amount of fat & protein, and maybe a few other nutrients. I was embarrassed to learn that a senior brand that I purchased was the same as the adult formula... with more "filler" and fewer calories. So, I fed my dog the same amount and he was losing weight quickly ... and I finally read the package a bit more closely... Back to adult formula.


----------



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> Re: Puppy vs. Adult food - For the brands that make different life-stages, you can compare the ingredients fairly straighforward from the lists on the side of the packages. I believe the differences are a matter of degree - amount of fat & protein, and maybe a few other nutrients. I was embarrassed to learn that a senior brand that I purchased was the same as the adult formula... with more "filler" and fewer calories. So, I fed my dog the same amount and he was losing weight quickly ... and I finally read the package a bit more closely... Back to adult formula.


Most foods (formulas and brands) all differ in the calorie department. You always gotta check to make sure you adjust accordingly or your dog could blow up or shrivel up.


----------

