# Genetics question -- cocker spaniel puppies



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

A friend of mine bred two of her cocker spaniels, a solid black bitch and a buff dog with white markings (click those links for pictures), and the five puppies were born overnight/this morning. The friend was expecting all black puppies, but none of the pups are black -- she ended up with one red/white parti, two buff with white blazes and toes, one solid buff, and one buff with a bit of white (picture... they actually look rather red moreso than the lighter buff, to me, but that could be the camera. I haven't seen them in person yet).

I'm not sure if she knows what the grandparent dogs looked like* (yes... I'm hoping this doesn't turn into a "why did this breeding happen?" thread, because the friend doesn't read these forums and I had nothing to do with this breeding), so I'm wondering: how did a litter like this come about? I've read the genetics sites but I get a little confused past the easy stuff. I find it interesting, though. I'm mostly just wondering why none of the pups are black.

Edit: She got back to me. The sire came out of a black/white mom and a black/tan-pointed dad. The bitch came out of a solid black mom, not sure on the dad.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

If the stud dog could have been Bb and only had a 50% chance of passing on the black color, luck of the draw and non of the pups came out black.


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## TonyBaby (Aug 24, 2007)

I don't know jack diddly about dog genetics. But IMO that dog looks red and not technically buff to me. In the horse world, red can dominate black depending on the genetic history of the animal.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

That sounds simple enough! I've asked if she knew what the sire's parents looked like. Still waiting on a response. (And yeah, the sire is darker than the buff cockers I've seen around here.)


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Keechak said:


> If the stud dog could have been Bb and only had a 50% chance of passing on the black color, luck of the draw and non of the pups came out black.


Genetics drives me insane. Years ago we had a shorthaired, solid black stray cat show up and deliver some kittens under our front porch. It's been awhile, but most of the litter was plain...blacks, black and whites, short haired. She also delivered a single camel-colored cat with black markings on her face, ears, tail, and paws. She looks like a ragdoll. 

















(not the most flattering pictures, but you can get the drift!)


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## TonyBaby (Aug 24, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Genetics drives me insane. Years ago we had a shorthaired, solid black stray cat show up and deliver some kittens under our front porch. It's been awhile, but most of the litter was plain...blacks, black and whites, short haired. She also delivered a single camel-colored cat with black markings on her face, ears, tail, and paws. She looks like a ragdoll.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL! Cats (and dogs too I believe) can have multiple sires to 1 litter.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Ah, she did know that the sire's parents were a black/white mom and a black/tan-pointed dad. The bitch's mother was also solid black.


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## bigmac (Sep 25, 2010)

Unfortunately, genetics is a complicated issue for many breeders. The wider the gene selection the tougher it is to call the colors of the litter. It would be a lot easier if the genetic makers were very simple like mink--there are only four. That is how they can breed correctly for colors. Not knowing the full line of the bitch and stud dogs makes it much harder. Sorry they didn't get what they were hoping for.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> It's been awhile, but most of the litter was plain...blacks, black and whites, short haired. She also delivered a single camel-colored cat with black markings on her face, ears, tail, and paws. She looks like a ragdoll.


I'm not great on cat color genetics, and the pointed gene is tricky. But I do know that a dark pointed cat is genetically black, so that wasn't so weird. And she could have had the same father as the rest of them. . .but he had to have been longhaired.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I love color genetics and Cockers are what I started study on, so, I'm here to have some fun and hopefully impart some info. I hope I don't confuse, but that does happen. Feel free to ask if I do.

First of all colors don't just have a linear, on or two pattern inheritance. There are many, many loci (gene locations) that operate together in sometime 4, 5 or 6 way interactions (or more) to create what we see as one color on a dog. 

In other words - inheritance of color can be very complicated.

There are three main loci that interact to give the basic 'base' color of a dog. They are the K (blacK) loci, the E (Exctension) loci, and the A (agouti) loci. Base colors tend to be governed by how those loci interaction and switch each other off or on, but then the base colors also can then be altered by being lightened or intensified or diluted to browns or blues or masked with white patches or merling. Then there is ticking on the white patches and roaning (extreme ticking). 

Anyway, buff cocker spaniels hold two recessive 'e' (notice it is lower case) alleles at the extension locus. At each locus there is only room for two alleles - and each pup gets one from each parent (the parents offer two, and the pups take just one from each).

In the case of these pups the black dam was obviously E/e at the extension locus. The big or dominant 'E' allele here is what allows the K (blacK) locus color to be shown and that is why she is blacK. These two alleles interact like that. (E/e, with blacK shut down - sporting its most recessive alleles (k'y'/k'y'), allows agouti to govern and this is how sable, wolf pattern, and tan point colors come about.)

The buff and white sire was e/e at the extension locus. When a dog has these two recessive alleles together, they mask (switch off) all that is on the black or agouti locus. A dog that is e/e on the extension locus is going to have a tan/yellow/red based coat. Because of other loci that might lighten/darken this color it can range in color from so light cream that it looks white (as like a Bichon Frise) or so intense red it looks like an Irish Setter or Ruby Cavalier.

This sire had a red base coat (he is ee) - but also has white spotting on another locus that masks the red coloring in places with white patches. The fact that he carries white spotting is visible in him (sometimes it is not) White spotting can cover the body to varying degrees - up to and including creating a full white dog like a Dalmatian, where the coloring that is masked only shows up in the tick spots. Some dogs show no color at all due to extreme white spotting.

Anyway. the Dam is E/e (which allows the other loci like BlacK and Agouti to take over and determine color) and sire is e/e - which only allows tan/red/yellow/cream colors - no black. The dam is also S/s and sire is S/s too at the white spotting locus - you can tell by what they produced.

This is what the punnet square is of this pairing on only the E locus. This punnet square shows what the options are for the offspring of this litter as they take only one allele from each parent.










As you see, the odds are that half the pups will be E/e (coat color governed by the black or agouti loci). ONLY half the pups should have been e/e (red/tan based in color). In this litter, the pups decided to go against the odds, and none have taken on that dominant E allele from their dam - they are all e/e at their extension locus.

As per the white spotting, the same type of punnet square can be drawn here are well. In this case both the mom and the dad are genetically 'solid' in color (capital S), and both carry white spotting to one degree or another. The Solid allele is not completely dominant and dad's coat has allowed some of the recessive white spotting allele that he carries to show.










The red/white parti pup is ss at that locus. White spotting has gone over much of his red coat. There was a one in four chance of a pup like that in this litter. The rest are SS (pure for solid) or Ss - (solid carrying parti as both of their parents are. Some pups show some of that carried parti allele through their solid coat).

In regards to the intensity or lightness of the red color - there is another locus that comes into play there, and it is the C locus. It can lighten 'reds' in the coat all the way to a coat that looks white. There are possibly unknown loci that intensify reds as well.

I do hope that was all a little clearer than mud.

I did want to add, that because these pups are all e/e - and with the different colors of parents/grandparents - that these red pups can be carrying all sorts of colors at the agouti locus (which governs tanpoint - sable - wolf pattern) or at the Black locus (which governs black - brindles). What is on those loci, in these pups, cannot be seen as the recessive e/e pairing is epistatic to them (masks them). The alleles are still there though.

SOB


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Is buff dilute red? Is it even distinct from red, or is it just a lighter shade? Is the cocker above buff?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Buff is lighter red. (I shouldn't call it a dilute, as it is just a lighter shade) So is Silver buff. So is cream. So is such a light cream that it is white (Bichons and Maltese etc.) They are all e/e at the extension locus.










This is the sire from above. He is dark buff (with white and ticking as well). Some would call him 'buff red' to indicate he is kind of in between in shade.

In some breeds 'red' is used to describe some of the clear sable colors. That is actually a different genotype though. (Clear red sable is E/E or E/e with a'y'/a'y', and k'y'/k'y'). Ideas of inheritance can get quite mixed up when breeders believe they are the same - and many do.

SOB


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The dam is actually the black one and the sire the buff (or red) with white. I followed the explanation pretty well, though, even though the Punnett square pictures aren't showing up for me (now they are, yay)! Thanks for the long explanation (I was hoping you'd post ). I'm going to pass it along to the owner of these cockers -- she's interested in genetics, although she finds it a little hard to follow, too. I'll post any questions she has.

Also, although the owner was expecting black pups, I think she's very happy with these colors!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks for that. I start thinking genes and I forget which colored dog was nursing pups LOL. I just fixed the punnet squares on photobucket so hopefully they won't glitch, but now the sire/dam should be switched in their places on the top square as I had them mixed up. I think you can still follow them. I fixed the wording of the post (I hope I caught it all).

SOB


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Thanks for going back and fixing the wording! It's easier to follow now. 

I always really enjoyed doing Punnett squares in high school biology class, but of course we never got into much depth. I like reading the genetics sites and the threads about genetics here at DF, too, even if I don't follow everything (I am still so perplexed by huskies, especially). I think it must be fascinating for dog breeders to figure out what to expect in their litters.

My friend liked the info, too:



> that was great. A little clearer than mud, maybe thick fog. Lol. I love this stuff. I always thought black was dominant, who'd have thought she was carrying for buff. But it's kind of obvious now.


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## princesstiffany (Mar 26, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Thanks for going back and fixing the wording! It's easier to follow now.
> 
> I always really enjoyed doing Punnett squares in high school biology class, but of course we never got into much depth. I like reading the genetics sites and the threads about genetics here at DF, too, even if I don't follow everything (I am still so perplexed by huskies, especially). I think it must be fascinating for dog breeders to figure out what to expect in their litters.


huskies are the main breed i am trying to really get into, and its so confusing. especially with some findings that i posted about on here and still trying to get to the bottom of.

cockers were the first breed that got me into genetics, my cousin use to breed them i loved to figure out what colors would be born. sob your information is amazing!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

When looking at a dog I believe it is easiest if you can figure a way to strip the color (in your mind) back to the base color from the E, K, and A loci interaction (red based, black based, black based deferred to agouti), to begin with. I always start at the extension locus looking for a red based coat. If not I then move on to see if the black locus is showing black or brindle, or if it is at its most recessive k'y'/k'y' and has therfore deferred to the color patterns of the agouti locus (sable, wolf sable, saddle, tanpoint, recessive black). I swear that I SEE letters on dogs when I gaze at them now.

Husky colors run the gamut as do Cockers, but with also the addition of Uijaro and Domino patterning effects, and probably some others, and thus can be very confusing. When wou get the black AND red colors together on a dog, and then modifiying loci change these up with any number of dilutes and shades in different combinations, with or without some patterning affects, then getting to know the preferred breed specific nomenclature for the colors can get very difficult. The names used for Husky colors often make no sense to me and it is a hard starting place. 

Learning from a breed that has few options is the easier place to start. Single colored breeds (Bichon, Maltese, Golden Retrievers - all e/e) are of course set in stone. Cavaliers are a good breed to start in to learn color inheritance, as there are only two colors - black/tan (tanpoint) and red (with or without white patterning on them - making four 'named' colors).

There is a neat chart at the bottom of the page here, showing litter expectations from different pairings - http://cavalierkingcharles.org.uk/colour_inheritance.html 











SOB


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