# Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous...



## MrsJohnnyG (Jan 31, 2009)

*Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous...*

We have Standard Poodles. Our older one's tail is docked to the normal length for poodles (short enough that it stands straight, but not so short that it's stubby).

But our two 4-month-olds have longer tails... long enough that they curl up over their backs. In showing Poodles, this is considered a major fault.

I understand why Poodles' tails came to be docked traditionally (they were bred as hunting dogs and their tails are thin enough that they can actually break while they're working, supposedly), but I don't understand why a natural unaltered tail is still considered such a huge "fault" in the show ring. 

Look how gorgeous my puppies' tails are... it's just so beautiful and regal to me to see those noble tails sweep up high. Am I crazy for thinking unaltered tails are so beautiful? I know there are similar debates about ears etc., but there is truly no practical reason for Poodles to have their tails docked so short that they don't have that beautiful natural curl -- is there?


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

They originaly docked poodles tails to prevent them from getting injured while they were working as retreviers.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

IIRC, there's at least one natural tailed poodle with points. Breeders are docking longer and longer and I'm positive there are natural-tailed poodles being shown in UKC.


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## MrsJohnnyG (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



animalcraker said:


> They originaly docked poodles tails to prevent them from getting injured while they were working as retreviers.


Yes, I know, I said that in my post... does that mean all show Poodles are working hunting/retrieving dogs? If they're not, why must a show dog be penalized for something that's irrelevant and is really a "practical mutilation" for only the ones that actually hunt/retrieve?

eta:


> IIRC, there's at least one natural tailed poodle with points. Breeders are docking longer and longer and I'm positive there are natural-tailed poodles being shown in UKC.


That's good to know and what I would hope and expect to be the case. Thanks for letting me know that! That also answers the question I had been wondering: why our breeder docked their tails so long since she breeds show-quality Standards.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

Ugh.. it's just the AKC (and similar groups) and their bizarre "standards".. I don't know why any one in their right mind would choose a short little stump of a tail over a beautiful, curly tail.. There's a lot of controversy over this about how dogs use their tails to communicate their feelings and communicate with other dogs, and removing it makes them less-able to do that. There have also been a lot of posts on this topic before, and I have yet to be convinced that any dog should have it's otherwise healthy, beautiful tail cut off.


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## traininglabs (Feb 21, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



animalcraker said:


> They originaly docked poodles tails to prevent them from getting injured while they were working as retreviers.


And since the breed is distinguished by their purpose, I can see tradition playing a part in dog shows. I can understand why undocked tails would still be considered a fault... but at the same time, I agree that they look much better intact.


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## MrsJohnnyG (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



Binkalette said:


> I don't know why any one in their right mind would choose a short little stump of a tail over a beautiful, curly tail.. There's a lot of controversy over this about how dogs use their tails to communicate their feelings and communicate with other dogs, and removing it makes them less-able to do that. There have also been a lot of posts on this topic before, and I have yet to be convinced that any dog should have it's otherwise healthy, beautiful tail cut off.


Thank you... I completely agree with this. It breaks my heart when I see dogs whose tails are docked way too short and they just have the tiniest little stump left that they're barely able to wag. I had always thought my older dog's docked tail is fine (it's long enough for her to be plenty expressive) and beautiful as is, but seeing my puppies' longer curling tails just takes my breath away. The snapshots I posted above don't come close to showing how beautiful they are. Not to mention, like you said about using their tails to communicate, my puppies sometimes do straighten their tail (if they're being extremely focused on something)... but their normal, happy, playful tail position is curled high... it makes me wonder if our older Standard Poodle is missing out on some tail expressiveness because hers is docked.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

this and the ear cropping is a small part of why i chose the Border Collie and why i don't get into conformation showing.....when they start showing Borders as a Border Collie and not a "Barbie" Collie (where the ears have to be a certain set, when the BC's can go from totally erect to totally dropped, and the white has to be white, no ticking, etc) i might consider it....in the meantime, i'll stay w/ my natural, working style Borders....


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## SSpiro (Oct 5, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

My Boxer is completely natural. We get asked all the time due to this what the deal is, but he's beautiful natural.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

Frankly, I see poor docks very rarely from show folks. The trend is towards longer stuff and as judges get more used to seeing that, I think we'll begin seeing more and more undocked dogs. However, it's not going to start with poodles or dobes or any of the really hypercompetitive breeds (boxers)- probably some of the rarer spaniels and the more recently recognized breeds where a lot of the first dogs judges are getting a look at are imports from Europe.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



animalcraker said:


> They originaly docked poodles tails to prevent them from getting injured while they were working as retreviers.


Do Poodles have super-long tails for a retriever breed? Most other retrievers aren't docked, are they?

Here is a nice pic of adult undocked Poodles I found:




















Some of the really old (1800s) images of poodles show them undocked. It doesn't seem like it was always the requirement. Here is an undocked AKC champion (Styx) from 1886. I love how the 'fashionable' poodle clips had such variety back in the day! My favorite style has to be the corded type. =)


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



Pai said:


> Do Poodles have super-long tails for a retriever breed? Most other retrievers aren't docked, are they?


No, but while Poodles were retrieving birds, their immediate ancestors (waterspaniels and the barbet) are all considered spaniels, not retrievers.


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## CorgiKarma (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

I have to admit, I do like the look of a docked pembroke welsh corgi. I have to wonder, though, why cardigans are not docked? I know traditionally they are not, and I have only seen a few that have been. I understand that pembrokes are docked due to them being herding dogs, but cardigans are also herding dogs. Just odd that one would be docked and the other not.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



CorgiKarma said:


> I have to admit, I do like the look of a docked pembroke welsh corgi. I have to wonder, though, why cardigans are not docked? I know traditionally they are not, and I have only seen a few that have been. I understand that pembrokes are docked due to them being herding dogs, but cardigans are also herding dogs. Just odd that one would be docked and the other not.


Because the Pems were originally (mostly) natural bobtails.


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## CorgiKarma (Feb 10, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

I know but it seems like for such a short little herding dog they would have docked the tails, doesn't it?


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## MrsJohnnyG (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



Pai said:


> Some of the really old (1800s) images of poodles show them undocked. It doesn't seem like it was always the requirement. Here is an undocked AKC champion (Styx) from 1886. I love how the 'fashionable' poodle clips had such variety back in the day! My favorite style has to be the corded type. =)


Thanks for those links... interesting stuff! I would love for it to someday be commonplace in the U.S. for certain traditionally-docked breeds to be undocked, with docking being the exception when there is a good specific reason for it.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

There are still corded poodles shown today, and some variety in clips.  

Here's a corded poodle at Glen Rose back in January - 










There was a dog in a hunting continental (a shorter continental clip) too, but I can't find a photo of him.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



traininglabs said:


> And since the breed is distinguished by their purpose, I can see tradition playing a part in dog shows. I can understand why undocked tails would still be considered a fault... but at the same time, I agree that they look much better intact.


I don't really understand. Is a poodle not a poodle if his tail isn't cut off?

I mean, how can the _natural_ look of the dog be considered "faulty". That makes no sense to me.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



Binkalette said:


> Ugh.. it's just the AKC (and similar groups) and their bizarre "standards".. I don't know why any one in their right mind would choose a short little stump of a tail over a beautiful, curly tail.. There's a lot of controversy over this about how dogs use their tails to communicate their feelings and communicate with other dogs, and removing it makes them less-able to do that. There have also been a lot of posts on this topic before, and I have yet to be convinced that any dog should have it's otherwise healthy, beautiful tail cut off.


Its not the AKC.... or the UKC, FCI, etc. Those are registering bodies. The AKC and other regestering bodies do not set breed standard. The breed clubs do. IF someone chooses to take issue with docking, cropping or any part of the standard then they need to look at the breeders, fanciers, and owners that make up the membership of the breed club. 



On another note. As someone who has had a dog that incurred a serious tail injury (they ended up having to remove three or four inches of the tail) in a working situation, I will tell you it is no fun. My previous ACD injured tail working stock. The repair involved surgery, medication, e collars, etc. Surgery alone was about 1200. Then there was the after care, the 500 dollar professional cleaning to the interior of my truck. (truck was nearly brand new and looked like a prop in a B grade horror film. Blood sprayed EVERYWHERE) The cleaning did not completely remove some of the stains. The passenger seat had blood stains on it when I traded the truck. Try driving to the ER vet alone, trying to hold a dogs tail that is profusely bleeding, and a dog that is refusing to sit still.... It was not a good time. 

And ACD's do not have fragile tails. They tend to have dislocate your kneecap tails. I will still work my current and future ACDs. I will not cut their tails because I kind of think what happened to Bandit was fluke. (Although since Bandit injured his tail, I have met three other ACDs with work related tail injuries.) I also think ACD's need their tail for balance with the low to the ground way they work and cut. 

But I will tell you this, if I had a breed that called for a docked tail and the tails of that breed were fragile or whip like, it would come off at three days of age.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

Hm, I am sure it is partly because it is what I have had for the past 30 years but I have to say, I really appreciate a docked tail. 
Today at the Pet Expo with hundreds of people and wheel chairs and kids. Dogs were getting their tails stepped on every little while. My poor partner in the working group was a St. Bernard who got his tail stomped many times today. Nobody stepped on Carstens tail and when I work around wheelchairs during therapy stints, I am so happy I don't have to worry about a tail.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

I honestly didn't know Poodles were docked, until my uncle came to visit with his new Miniature Poodle that he got from the SPCA. The poor little guy was the runt, and the breeder was going to drown him, so a SPCA volunteer took him (obviously before the docking was done), bottle-fed him, and put him up for adoption. I guess I thought Poodles just had shorter tails naturally  . I like the undocked look.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

If it's such a detriment to have long tails - why are dogs bred with long tails that have to be cut short?

Something in all of this just isn't clicking in my head. Short tails are preferred, but the breed naturally has long tails? Why didn't the breed be developed with short tails? If they can take a poodle and breed him down to a toy - couldn't they create a "short-tailed standard poodle" as well?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

It's interesting that because of widespread docking, many breeds that are traditionally docked actually tend to have a variety of tail types and sets, because nobody has bred for a specific style of tail for so long. A similar thing goes for cropped ear types too.

There is a kennel in England (Steynmere) that has bred naturally-bobtail Boxers, so it IS possible to breed for it. Of course, he had to outcross to do it, which would horrify a lot of people. =P His dogs look very nice, though.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

Ah, that is interesting! I like the look of that Sabre Tail.  

It does make me wonder why the tail type wasn't considered something to build a "variety" of a breed around, especially if it's very important to the work/purpose of the breed.

Perhaps that trend will change with what's been going on at the Steynmere Kennel. After all, weren't a lot of the breeds today created from a cross of other breeds with a specific trait to induce and reproduce to future generations?


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## MrsJohnnyG (Jan 31, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



> As someone who has had a dog that incurred a serious tail injury (they ended up having to remove three or four inches of the tail) in a working situation, I will tell you it is no fun.


I'm so sorry to hear of such a horrific accident to your dog... obviously in situations where a dog is going to be truly a working dog or in other hazardous situations and has a fragile tail, of course I see the value of docking as I said before. Just wanted to clarify that I'm not at all suggesting an end to tail docking when it makes sense to do so... just would rather see it more the exception than the rule.


> Something in all of this just isn't clicking in my head. Short tails are preferred, but the breed naturally has long tails? Why didn't the breed be developed with short tails? If they can take a poodle and breed him down to a toy - couldn't they create a "short-tailed standard poodle" as well?


GREAT point!



Pai said:


> It's interesting that because of widespread docking, many breeds that are traditionally docked actually tend to have a variety of tail types and sets, because nobody has bred for a specific style of tail for so long.


Wow, I'm glad you posted that... I wonder if something similar applies to Poodles. I kept reading the description of tails "curled over the back" as being a major fault, and I assumed that that was describing what my puppies' tails do. But according to that illustration, my puppies hold their sabre tails the correct way (if the same applies to Poodles). I couldn't imagine that the gorgeous, regal way they carry their tails in that beautiful sweeping curve could be considered a flaw, so I'm very glad to have seen that site you linked! Thank you.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



Pai said:


> It's interesting that because of widespread docking, many breeds that are traditionally docked actually tend to have a variety of tail types and sets, because nobody has bred for a specific style of tail for so long. A similar thing goes for cropped ear types too.


that's another thing w/ the Borders....they have many tail sets in the working dogs....the tail is generally down but when at attention or excited they will hold it over the back.....when the gal that took Meghan applied for her AKC # they wrote back saying they needed more verification that she was pure since the side pic she sent was w/ her tail over her back and at attention so they figured her to be a mix....the dogs in the ring don't even have the "shepherds crook" in the tail (2 of the big things in Borders tails as working dogs...the "shepherds lantern"--white tip; and the "shepherds crook"--"hook" at the end)....show dogs have straight....


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



KBLover said:


> If it's such a detriment to have long tails - why are dogs bred with long tails that have to be cut short?
> 
> Something in all of this just isn't clicking in my head. Short tails are preferred, but the breed naturally has long tails? Why didn't the breed be developed with short tails? If they can take a poodle and breed him down to a toy - couldn't they create a "short-tailed standard poodle" as well?


You have to remember that back when the dog breeds were being developed docking tails was a common practice and not percived in the same negative fashion that it is today. Back then there was no point to risk losing type and ability to make a natural bob-tailed dog when you could just dock the pups when they're born. 

There is a breeding program curently running to bring the bob-tailed gene into boxers. To my knowledge it has been sucessful, but others with more knowledge on the project will have to enlighten us. However I don't belive a project like this will work as well with the poodle. In the boxers' case they bred them to a similar breed that has a natural bob-tail, I belive it was the bulldog. Unfortunately there ins't a similar breed to the poodle that has a natural bob-tail. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that show dogs "should" be able to do the work that they were bred to do. While I'm sure we can agree that a majority of the dogs in the show ring don't work, there are a few that do, and it's slowly becoming more popular for dogs to get working and show titles. There's nothing to say that the dog in the show ring doesn't or can't work, or that it was just docked for looks.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



animalcraker said:


> You have to remember that back when the dog breeds were being developed docking tails was a common practice and not percived in the same negative fashion that it is today. Back then there was no point to risk losing type and ability to make a natural bob-tailed dog when you could just dock the pups when they're born.
> 
> There is a breeding program curently running to bring the bob-tailed gene into boxers. To my knowledge it has been sucessful, but others with more knowledge on the project will have to enlighten us. However I don't belive a project like this will work as well with the poodle. In the boxers' case they bred them to a similar breed that has a natural bob-tail, I belive it was the bulldog. Unfortunately there ins't a similar breed to the poodle that has a natural bob-tail.


I linked to two pages about the Steynmere Boxers, above. He used Corgis, not Bulldogs. Reading the breeder's notes on the project is very interesting -- he knew which major physical traits in both breeds were dominant or recessive and how to breed back to getting a proper-type Boxer with just the stub tail gene remaining from the Corgi. He was actually surprised by how easy it was.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



> MrsJohnnyG;510781]We have Standard Poodles. Our older one's tail is docked to the normal length for poodles (short enough that it stands straight, but not so short that it's stubby).
> 
> But our two 4-month-olds have longer tails... long enough that they curl up over their backs. In showing Poodles, this is considered a major fault.



Actually, an undocked tail is not considered a fault, even with a gentle curve. What is considered a fault is what they call a "gay tail," one that bends strongly close to, and over the back. It's very unattractive. 

My show puppy has a longer tail than my other two; it's gorgeous. It stands straight up, without curving over the back at all. 




> Am I crazy for thinking unaltered tails are so beautiful? I know there are similar debates about ears etc., but there is truly no practical reason for Poodles to have their tails docked so short that they don't have that beautiful natural curl -- is there?


No, you're not crazy! However, a Poodle's tail shouldn't be docked short - to me, that's hideous. A nice curve is beautiful, but if the tail is flat snug over the back, that's a major fault, and would show up even when docked.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*

My poodle has his full tail. I love it.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



Inga said:


> Hm, I am sure it is partly because it is what I have had for the past 30 years but I have to say, I really appreciate a docked tail.
> Today at the Pet Expo with hundreds of people and wheel chairs and kids. Dogs were getting their tails stepped on every little while. My poor partner in the working group was a St. Bernard who got his tail stomped many times today. Nobody stepped on Carstens tail and when I work around wheelchairs during therapy stints, I am so happy I don't have to worry about a tail.


I agree with you, as usual. Rotties are traditionally a docked breed, and I like them as such (same w/doberman pinschers, boxers, poodles, etc). I've seen rotties with their tails, but it's not a look I prefer. 

I was at Pet Fest this weekend and heard yelps every so often from dogs who were laying down on the ground getting their tails stomped on, or pulled by kids. It's not anything I had to be concerned with. My boy's nub is literally just a nub!


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## JohnnyBlaze (Mar 29, 2009)

*Re: Why are undocked tails considered a fault in show dogs? This "fault" is gorgeous.*



Pai said:


> I linked to two pages about the Steynmere Boxers, above. He used Corgis, not Bulldogs. Reading the breeder's notes on the project is very interesting -- he knew which major physical traits in both breeds were dominant or recessive and how to breed back to getting a proper-type Boxer with just the stub tail gene remaining from the Corgi. He was actually surprised by how easy it was.


If he is outbreeding into another breed for desired traits. He must completely understand both breeds. Bravo, I give him all the credit in the world. It takes a lot of courage to put up your own stock. A lot could have went horribly wrong and he could have lost so much.


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