# Wolf at the dog park?



## 4dogs3cats

I know everyone here says if you think you own a wolf you probably dont. And I usually see husky in all those dogs too. But I was at the DP last night and I could not stop looking at this dog.

He is very strange too. He doesnt play with the other dogs, just lays by his owner. His owner said he always looks up and howls at the moon like a coyote. They found him as a stray out by the desert (I live in Arizona) so a big part of me wants to believe this dog actually may have wolf in it. Also, the owners friend was there with his golden and this guy would just keep putting its jaw around the goldens neck, that is the only way he would play.

Regardless of what he is, he is very unique looking.

But if he is a wolf he does not belong at the DP




























See how long and pointy his face is?









What do you guys think?


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## K8IE

Wow... he does look very wolf-ish!


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## 4dogs3cats

K8IE said:


> Wow... he does look very wolf-ish!


I agree. Usually the dogs people think are wolfs look more like huskies. Not this guy


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## BoxMeIn21

Wow...he does does look very wolf-ish...Very pretty.


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## RBark

I can see the confusion, but he's a mix. The dead giveaway is the curved tail he has.

Looks like a overweight Husky/collie to me. Actually I'm not sure about the collie part, at some angles it looked possible. But It's definitely a Malamute or Husky mix.


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## 4dogs3cats

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Wow...he does does look very wolf-ish...Very pretty.


yeah he was



RBark said:


> I can see the confusion, but he's a mix. The dead giveaway is the curved tail he has.
> 
> Looks like a overweight Husky/collie to me.


Yeah I should have made it more clear. I knew he wasnt 100% wolf. But of all the "omg is this a wolf hybrid?" dogs I have seen, I think he takes the cake lol.

And yeah I was discussing his tail with another forum member, and she said he def has a husky tail.

He want overweight at all actually, he was very lean, his fur was just all over the place. Had lines in it from being brushed. But, he just appeared to be heavier. Ollie is like that too right?


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## harrise

I see mostly sled. If you've ever found pictures of some working line sled dogs, they have a very wolf-ish face coloring. That's what I see there, the structure just looks too familiar to me.

Imagine this guy with some Malamute in him and brown eyes...


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## 4dogs3cats

harrise said:


> I see mostly sled. If you've ever found pictures of some working line sled dogs, they have a very wolf-ish face coloring. That's what I see there, the structure just looks too familiar to me.
> 
> Imagine this guy with some Malamute in him and brown eyes...


true. I just put together the fact that he was found as a stray out in the desert, and he howls at the moon (which I am sure sleds do too lol) and he just has that LOOK you know?

It would be hard to find a wolf hybrid pic with his coloring that DIDNT look like him, ya know?


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## RBark

4dogs3cats said:


> yeah he was
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah I should have made it more clear. I knew he wasnt 100% wolf. But of all the "omg is this a wolf hybrid?" dogs I have seen, I think he takes the cake lol.
> 
> And yeah I was discussing his tail with another forum member, and she said he def has a husky tail.
> 
> He want overweight at all actually, he was very lean, his fur was just all over the place. Had lines in it from being brushed. But, he just appeared to be heavier. Ollie is like that too right?


Well yeah, Ollie was like that. But that guy has too big a body relative to his legs. For such a hulking body he sure has skinny legs. That may be because of whatever mix he is, I have no idea.


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## harrise

I've only met four hybrids in my life. The biggest difference I noticed is their approach to new people and the way they size things up. Most dogs are visibly excited or aloof in some way, but the hybrids all had that look like they were planning and ready for anything. 

This guy was tough to catch, he stood an inch taller than Bubba and probably weighed 130-140lbs. Yet I'm still not sure if he's wolf. Animal control (because of license), his vet and his owners all claimed Timberwolf. As you may or may not know, I'm no expert...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

One of the telltale signs of a hybrid is ears.

I can't tell from the photos but wolves have a thick layer of fur on the inside of the ear. Dogs do not. if his ears have the inner fur there is a decent chance he is a real hybrid. 

Another thing is head size in relation to the rest of the body. A wolf's head is larger in proportion to the body than a dog. It hard to tell in the photos.

If he is a hybrid id wager he is low content..but Im not sure he is a hybrid...

I suppose its possible.


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## Laurelin

That body type is very wolf-like. The big body, skinny legs. The tail is not wolf, though it could be the angle. In the other pics he's carrying it down. does it actually curl when he walks? Coat texture looks more malamute to me, though. I've met a few wolfdogs (and a lot more 'wolfdogs') and I think he could be a hybrid.


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## RBark

It curls in the second pic, laurelin.


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## RonE

I met what the owner claims was a juvenile female wolf at the dogpark years ago. I watched her for quite a while and I believe him.

My dog ignored her. Many of the dogs were afraid of her. The huskies mostly wanted to play with her.

It's the only time I ever saw her there and I was there nearly every day. I assume that, on reaching puberty, she was no longer a good candidate for socializing with 50-100 other dogs. 

I was glad to see her but I seriously question the wisdom of putting even a juvenile in that situation.


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## Melissa_Chloe

4dogs3cats said:


> Also, the owners friend was there with his golden and this guy would just keep putting its jaw around the goldens neck, that is the only way he would play.


Is that how wolves play? I know nothing about them or hybrids. It's interesting that they play that way because that's how my dog plays most of the time. She loves to put her mouth around other dogs backs (she doesn't bite hard).
I'm sure lots of dogs do that, but I haven't met any yet ... they all think she's wacked and stop playing with her because she won't run, chase, run, etc lol.


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## Pepper

At first glance it looks like a wolf, but the facial/body/ear structure is way off.

So it could have wolf somewhere back in its lines, but the mix is quite over powering.

If you came to Alaska, someone would probably think our entire state is wolf hybrids, every dog walking down the street or in the pound looks like a wolf.

In reality, they are husky and usually GSD mixes.


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## Tuatha

I dont really see any wolf in him. In some of the pictures of how he is standing I can see where he sorta looks like it, but I see GSD (a sable) and Husky and/or Mal. I would go with Mal as they are more..er, beefier, for lack of a better term. lol.


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## tirluc

actually, looks very much like the coy-dog i had.....she was smaller than that one but we're not sure what the cross was (the vet thought sm husky).....Ki was only about 30# at full weight......she really resembled the coyote, tho


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## basicair

I saw an episode of Dog Whisperer of a wolf hybrid. Cesar had to approach him very carefully and even explained why and how they're different from regular dogs. He mentioned how he sized them up and stuff, sniffed him unlike any other dog he had met in his life, etc.

It was really interesting.


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## 4dogs3cats

tirluc said:


> actually, looks very much like the coy-dog i had.....she was smaller than that one but we're not sure what the cross was (the vet thought sm husky).....Ki was only about 30# at full weight......she really resembled the coyote, tho


We are overrun with coyotes here so that does make more sense.

I find it odd that a husky, mal, gsd mix that looks JUST like a coyote or wolf would be a stray out in the desert.

I wonder if my title should read Coyote at the dog park? lol


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## marsha=whitie

4dogs3cats said:


> I know everyone here says if you think you own a wolf you probably dont. And I usually see husky in all those dogs too. But I was at the DP last night and I could not stop looking at this dog.
> 
> He is very strange too. He doesnt play with the other dogs, just lays by his owner. His owner said he always looks up and howls at the moon like a coyote. They found him as a stray out by the desert (I live in Arizona) so a big part of me wants to believe this dog actually may have wolf in it. Also, the owners friend was there with his golden and this guy would just keep putting its jaw around the goldens neck, that is the only way he would play.
> 
> Regardless of what he is, he is very unique looking.
> 
> But if he is a wolf he does not belong at the DP


aren't coyotes rather abundant in the desert? it is slightly possible that one of his parents was a coyote.


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## 4dogs3cats

marsha=whitie said:


> aren't coyotes rather abundant in the desert? it is slightly possible that one of his parents was a coyote.


Yeah I dont know why I previously had my mind set on wolf hybrid. I am quite sure that dog probably has coyote in him.


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## Azu

i actually just met a full wolf at my dog park this past weekend and would have to say that the dog in the picture may APPEAR to be a wolf, but really does not match the wolf i saw. Its owner was really hesitant to tell me what breed her dog was as she had the police pay her a visit recently bc a person at the dog park thought it was a "threat" to the other dogs....In reality, the wolf was not even interested in meeting and greeting other dogs, my husky went up to it to greet it and was ignored as the wolf continued to walk around sniffing, completely ignoring the other dogs that ran by it...It was extremely calm and very reserved toward people, it appeared to look after his husky companion but was mostly on its own....it had a very long face and looked quite large, about twice the size of our 75 lb husky...

My interaction with this wolf left me incredibly impressed, I expected it to be aggressive towards other smaller pets but it was just so...calm
I'm really glad I had the opportunity to interact with the wolf as it completely changed my opinions on it...AND apparently the wolf was featured on "Dogtown"!


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## RonE

I would caution anyone against forming an opinion about the suitability of wolves as pets - much less dogpark visitors - based on observation of a single animal.

I'm sorry if I'm stating the obvious here.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi

Azu said:


> i actually just met a full wolf at my dog park this past weekend and would have to say that the dog in the picture may APPEAR to be a wolf, but really does not match the wolf i saw. Its owner was really hesitant to tell me what breed her dog was as she had the police pay her a visit recently bc a person at the dog park thought it was a "threat" to the other dogs....In reality, the wolf was not even interested in meeting and greeting other dogs, my husky went up to it to greet it and was ignored as the wolf continued to walk around sniffing, completely ignoring the other dogs that ran by it...It was extremely calm and very reserved toward people, it appeared to look after his husky companion but was mostly on its own....it had a very long face and looked quite large, about twice the size of our 75 lb husky...
> 
> My interaction with this wolf left me incredibly impressed, I expected it to be aggressive towards other smaller pets but it was just so...calm
> I'm really glad I had the opportunity to interact with the wolf as it completely changed my opinions on it...AND apparently the wolf was featured on "Dogtown"!



err...I really really doubt that was a wolf. It may have been a hybrid but not a full wolf.


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## tirluc

just to let everyone know....the coy/dog that i had had to be PTS about 18 mo as she would not "domesticate"....that being said, she was quite friendlier w/ other dogs and people (couldn't be around small aninals, poultry, little kids, the such) than any of the wolf/wolf-hybrids that i have met (i've met 3, and, yes, the were really just that, i was shown the permit that the people had to have in order to "obtain" them)....these "dogs" had been socialized up the wahzoo from about 6 wks on w/ anything and everything and they still were not able to be around small animals, children, and many dogs past 2 yrs old....the only ones they accepted were the family, their pack.....the 2 hybrids (85% wolf/15% dog) were owned by a family in CO and the other (technically a hybrid as it was 97% wolf/3% dog) was owned by a couple here in Appleton....they had to quit bringing Shadow to the DP (that's where i met them) when she was 2 cuz she became unpredictable......

oh, on the permit? i was told by both people that they had to obtain and keep on them at all times in public, this permit that they had been "taught" how to handle these animals.....and, if the animal had to be relinquished it had to go back to the breeder or PTS....could not just be transfered...


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## 4dogs3cats

Yeah I really think this was a coydog more than a wolf now. Wolf doesnt really make sense.. I dont think we have many wolf packs out here in the desert. Coyotes are a whole different story. They come down into the neighborhoods looking for food.

It was just interesting to see. I didn't pet him at all.. he was mostly just hanging out with his owner, and he played with a couple dogs that he came in with. kody was VERY stand offish about him in the beginning. He followed him around, but kept his distance. It was just an interesting night.


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## Azu

I was very hesitant to believe that the animal was a wolf as well Zim, especially after reading several threads that had been posted in the past...but my mind was changed after I observed the wolf's behavior.

I am in no way trying to encourage anyone to purchase a wolf as a "pet" bc to be honest, I learned that it is NOT a possibility and that it is cruel to an animal that clearly appeared to be saddened by its "domesticity." The positive experience that I had with this particular wolf (by positive I mean that it did not snarl or bite other dogs as I thought it would) was only due to the fact that it had undergone intense therapy at Dogtown and was able to TOLERATE dogs and humans. The wolf did not share ANY dog behaviors as it did not interact, play or even approach other dogs...if any approached him (my husky tried to get his attention) the wolf ignored it and went off on its own. 

Being around a wolf, yes it really was a wolf, made me understand that it is definitely NOT meant to be a domestic animal...it did not look enthusiastic about being at the park and was just in his own little world....this wild animal really should not be treated or thought of as a dog...I do believe its owner understood that and she was only trying to help the wolf by rescuing it...but purchasing a "wolf" just for the sake of saying you have one is plain cruel


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## nekomi

Looking at the pics, he looks too heavy-bodied and short-legged to be a hybrid with significant wolf content... plus the curled tail gives away his sled-dog ancestry. He might very well be a low-content wolfdog, but it's equally possible that he could be just a wolfy-looking Northern mix. He looks mainly Malamute to me, and like others have said, that wolf sable coloring shows up frequently in racing-line dogs.

As far as playing by putting his mouth around other dogs' necks, he sounds just like Willow! She is very physical and forward when she plays, and often does the "hey I've got your neck, hehehe" routine.  I wouldn't find that to be abnormal at all. In my experience I've found that Northern breeds play completely differently than other dogs - Willow finds it hard to make friends with dogs, other than other huskies and Malamutes, because of this.

Also, that face doesn't look *too* narrow to me... looks about on-par with Willow's snout. I can see how you might think that, though, when comparing him to most of the show-line huskies and malamutes these days with very square features! But, the racing lines are much more slender-looking, and many mixes labeled as "wolf hybrids" are actually racing sled dog mixes.

Take a look at her face, then a high-content wolf hybrid (close to pure wolf) -

Willow (mostly German Shepherd and racing husky) -









A high-content wolfdog - 
http://webzoom.freewebs.com/winddancerwolves/DSC03756 (2).jpg

Also, I would imagine he's too large and far too heavily-built to be a coydog; those guys are spritely little animals and even more slender than a wolf, with much larger ears and a wirey coat! Take a look at this pure coyote... that rangy, feral look would be evident in a coydog.

http://scoutdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/coyote1.jpg

Also - this isn't directed at the OP or anyone in particular, but... just wanted to say that despite our best guesses, it's always impossible to know for sure if a dog is truly a hybrid, especially from photos.

I think it's best to just treat every possible hybrid as an individual, assessing their personality and friendliness just like any other dog, without jumping to conclusions. Many folks in my old town were afraid of Willow by default because of her "wolfy" look, and I've lost count of how many people have informed me that she is a full wolf while we're out walking.  Just FYI, being labeled with the "W" word can cause legal problems for folks with perfectly well-adjusted, wolfy-looking Northern mixes or very low-content wolfdogs (just like folks who think that all bully breed mixes are Pits). So, in cases like this it's really best to give the owner the benefit of the doubt when the dog is friendly and well-socialized. Just my opinion, having lived on "both sides of the coin" - having a dog who just looks wolfish, and fostering a wolfdog who was the real thing.


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## 4dogs3cats

These are the coyotes we see around my parts of town.

He may not have ANY wild animal in him at all, I just thought it was interesting to see how much he looks like one!

He was also very... stand offish.. didnt act very dog like IMO


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## RBark

4dogs3cats said:


> These are the coyotes we see around my parts of town.
> 
> He may not have ANY wild animal in him at all, I just thought it was interesting to see how much he looks like one!
> 
> He was also very... stand offish.. didnt act very dog like IMO


A lot of people find that Huskies are very different than most dogs and find their behavior unusual. All the huskies at the local dog park tend to group together, and when alone, act very standoffish. This depends heavily on each individual personality, of course, but it's still dog-like.

A study done a long time ago showed that many of the more primitive breeds displayed a much wider range of social behavior than most dogs. He noted that there are 14 major social behavior that are displayed by wolves. He also noted that many dogs, such as the Labrador Retreiver, displayed three of those major behaviors, where the Siberian Husky displayed all 14.

That taken into consideration, it is unsurprising that the average dog owner can't distinguish the behavior of a Wolf and the behavior of a Husky. It also explains why primitive breeds tend to back together, though this is my anecdote. It does also explain why many people say wolfdogs are standoffish with other dogs, but that the wolfdogs tend to join in with the Huskies/primitive breeds.

When the Husky rescue gathers to go to the dog park, we always see the Huskies stick together and play with other huskies, rarely playing with the other million dogs there.

My long winded point is just that, the saying the wolfdog doesn't act like a dog is a not quite correct. It doesn't act like most dogs, but they certainly do act like many primitive breeds do. If there is a difference in behavior, then it would be in it's motivators, not it's social behavior. [It should be noted that I'm making a general statement, so all disclaimers with generalizations apply]


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## nekomi

Couldn't agree more with Rbark! Thanks for stating it so clearly.


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## 4dogs3cats

Yeah that makes sense. I grew up with a husky/mal, and my parents dog is half husky. I get what you mean about the sled dogs having the same type of behavior one might think as wolf like.

Just watching this dog, and seeing it interact, and knowing it was a stray found out in the desert, it just is very difficult for me to think there is not one trace of coyote or SOMETHING in there.

And, yeah, he was kind of small. Def not as big as my mal was when i was younger.


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## winniec777

Based on the behavior I've seen, I would agree with Nekomi and RBark. Poca has the same play style as Willow and seems to go for the huskies/malamutes before other dogs. It's a good thing because they have the thick neck fur that can stand up to Poca's vampire ways! But she does get along really well with other dogs, too, and will play with any dog she encounters. Maybe that's the shepherd coming through. 

RBark: The study you mention sounds very interesting -- do you have a link or citation for it? I'd like to look it up.


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## RBark

winniec777 said:


> Based on the behavior I've seen, I would agree with Nekomi and RBark. Poca has the same play style as Willow and seems to go for the huskies/malamutes before other dogs. It's a good thing because they have the thick neck fur that can stand up to Poca's vampire ways! But she does get along really well with other dogs, too, and will play with any dog she encounters. Maybe that's the shepherd coming through.
> 
> RBark: The study you mention sounds very interesting -- do you have a link or citation for it? I'd like to look it up.


I first read it in one of Stanley Cohen's books, but all my books are packed up to move in a couple weeks. I will try to get you a citation soon as I can.


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## winniec777

RBark said:


> I first read it in one of Stanley Cohen's books, but all my books are packed up to move in a couple weeks. I will try to get you a citation soon as I can.


Thanks - I would appreciate it. I'll google Stanley Cohen (Coren?), too, and see what I find. Good luck with the move.


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## Kyllobernese

When I first met my future husband many years ago, he had a female that was half coyote and half shepherd. He got it from a fellow in Alberta that had a captured coyote that he bred to his shepherd (for what reason I do not know). She just looked like a very small black and tan Shepherd. She was very friendly with people and other animals but was also very well trained and was great little cattle dog. She used to go after skunks and never learned to stay away from them and her final mistake was tackling a Porcupine head on. She was hit so badly with the quills that she had to be put down.


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## BluEyedHusky

I agree with RBark and nekomi as well. Owning a husky, alot of the things they mentioned are very true. In this picture you can see our male husky grabbing our female by the neck. Half our pictures of them playing are like these! the female also plays pretty rough.. she's very vocal and growls alot while playing.











When i take her to the dog park, she is very standoffish and just goes around sniffing the ground or random things rather then playing with other dogs. I took her to a larger dog park the other weekend and there were 7 other huskies there and she played with them most of the time until they left and not really with any other dog in particular. 

Even when people see our huskies at a dog park or out in public, they always proceed with a little caution. Alot of people think huskies are mean because their wolf-like appearence. People don't realize they are an extremely friendly breed for the most part.


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## Willowy

Yeah, I'd say definitely some coyote in there. I've met a few coyote mixes (percentage unknown), and some of them seem "normal", if a bit shy, and some have been more "feral" in their temperment. Pretty dog anyway.


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## Jordan S.

yeah thats not a husky, that is a wolf! Or at least part wolf.


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## 3212

tirluc said:


> actually, looks very much like the coy-dog i had.....she was smaller than that one but we're not sure what the cross was (the vet thought sm husky).....Ki was only about 30# at full weight......she really resembled the coyote, tho


That's what I was thinking. I can definitely see some Coyote in there.


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## RonE

Jordan S. said:


> yeah thats not a husky, that is a wolf! Or at least part wolf.


Whatever it is, it's at least four months older now.


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## MaddieTheDog

Holy crap. a bit scary.


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## tw1n

Content level aside, I'm confused as to why you feel this dog shouldn't be allowed in a dog park.

If he's obviously playing by biting the neck, and not hurting, whats the problem? My two puppies grab eachother by the neck and ears all the time.


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## pugmom

tw1n said:


> Content level aside, I'm confused as to why you feel this dog shouldn't be allowed in a dog park.
> 
> If he's obviously playing by biting the neck, and not hurting, whats the problem? My two puppies grab eachother by the neck and ears all the time.


IMO it should not be at the DP because it is not a dog


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## tw1n

pugmom said:


> IMO it should not be at the DP because it is not a dog


a wolf*dog* is not a dog?

I guess they could make a wolf park... and like the 1 wolf can play by itself.... or would it have to be a wolfdog park 'cause he's not pure wolf? 

I'd rather have someone bring a well behaved wolf than a mean dog to the dog park.


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## pugmom

tw1n said:


> a wolf*dog* is not a dog?
> 
> I guess they could make a wolf park... and like the 1 wolf can play by itself.... or would it have to be a wolfdog park 'cause he's not pure wolf?



No its a wolf/dog hybrid


and No you would not make a wolf park......you would have a habitat under the control/supervisor of a qualified professional

well behaved wolf...LOL


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## tw1n

So the poor hybrids have to be lonely and unsocialized?


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## pugmom

tw1n said:


> So the poor hybrids have to be lonely and unsocialized?


The only way to socialize is at the DP?...what do you think the owners of PB do?...well the responsible ones anyway 

I don't think the average person should even own wolf/dog mixes let alone bring then to the DP


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## tw1n

pugmom said:


> The only way to socialize is at the DP?...what do you think the owners of PB do?...well the responsible ones anyway
> 
> I don't think the average person should even own wolf/dog mixes let alone bring then to the DP


All I'm saying is I'd rather have an under control pure wolf than and out of control chiuhaha at the DP. 

And I see nothing wrong with an under control pb at a dog park either.


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## pugmom

tw1n said:


> All I'm saying is I'd rather have an under control pure wolf than and out of control chiuhaha at the DP.
> 
> And I see nothing wrong with an under control pb at a dog park either.



Considering that wolfs are wild animals .....I'm not sure how much "control" a person can have over them...how many times have we seen trainers, handlers, researchers injured by the animals that they work with on a daily basis?...no IMO they do not belong at the DP nor do they need to be owned by novices ....but I also agree that I don't want an out of control chihuahua at the DP ether...but we can't even trust people not to bring those so why would I trust someone with a wolf?

Why not to bring a PB to the DP has been discussed multiple times so I really don't want to Hijack this thread ....there are quite a few good reasons...mostly to protect the PB


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## tw1n

I'm just saying the dog breed shouln't matter, it's how under control they are. 

I personally feel that they should be chaperoned. Like a Doggy Life Guard. If they see an out of control dog they boot them from the park. So if wolf dog is behaved, wolfdog can stay.


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## pugmom

tw1n said:


> I'm just saying the dog breed shouln't matter, it's how under control they are.
> 
> I personally feel that they should be chaperoned. Like a Doggy Life Guard. If they see an out of control dog they boot them from the park. So if wolf dog is behaved, wolfdog can stay.


But breed does matter....as long as there is BSL and PB are being targeted then breed matters

In a perfect world all DP would have educated staff to help keep the DP running smoothly....but unfortunately most DP do not....from what I've seen many DP have a hard enough time as it is....throwing a wolf hybrid into the mix is a very big gamble IMO.....


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## tw1n

It'd sure be nice to have one of those perfect worlds.


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## pugmom

tw1n said:


> It'd sure be nice to have one of those perfect worlds.


This I agree with 100%


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## nekomi

Wow, this thread has sure gotten out of hand! I don't even know where to start, there is so much misinformation and bias being slung around on this thread.

I work with wolfdogs ("wolf hybrids"). I have met dozens of them through my work in rescuing them - the real thing. I also own one (Jasper), and have fostered another in the past (Yuki). I'm fortunate to work with a great mentor who has over a decade experience with PURE wolves, and is helping me to volunteer working with them this summer.



> Holy crap. a bit scary.


Don't even know where to go with this one.



> IMO it should not be at the DP because it is not a dog


How much wolf (Canis lupus) has to be in the animal before it ceases to be a dog (Canis lupus familiaris - notice - subspecies of wolf)? Frankly from the photos, there is NOT much wolf in this dog, if any. Do you have experience with phenotyping wolfdogs, IDing them and telling them apart from wolfy-looking dog breeds (and I don't mean Huskies and Mals - I'm talking Tamaskans, Shikoku Ken, West Siberian Laika, Canadian Inuit Dogs, "village dogs", Seppala racing huskies)? 



> I don't think the average person should even own wolf/dog mixes let alone bring then to the DP


Agreed that the average person should not own a wolfdog. These animals need extensive research and special care (diet, thorough socialization, containment needs, etc.). Bringing them to a dog park is another story - if the owner is responsible, and knows their wolfdog well (this is KEY) why not bring them? What are you so afraid the wolfdog might do that any normal dog couldn't (or wouldn't)? What is the essential difference here that wolfdogs possess that dogs absolutely do not? 



> Considering that wolfs are wild animals .....I'm not sure how much "control" a person can have over them..


How much "control" do we EVER have over any animal? Is training really all about control, forcing the animal to submit? Or is it more about learning theory, and management of natural instincts and drives? 

What side of the issue you fall on will likely influence your thoughts on wolfdogs to a great degree.



> throwing a wolf hybrid into the mix is a very big gamble IMO.....


Why is throwing a wolfdog into the mix a big gamble? Are they aggressive? Are they more likely to attack another dog unprovoked? When you take a generally timid, shy creature like a wolf and mix it with a pack-oriented, typically dog-friendly dog like a Husky, where does the dog-aggressive gene come from?

So, as usual, misinformation abounds. For those of you who made these posts, what personal experience do you have with wolfdogs ("wolf hybrids")? Or even pure wolves? Your statements are awfully opinionated so I hope you have some personal experience to back them up with.

This is why working with wolfdog rescue is so difficult. It's sure as hell not the animals - it's the people with uneducated opinions and bias against these dogs. 

It's the woman at the shelter who, when asked about a wolfdog I'm going to pull, says, "Oh, that THING is still here? I thought it was supposed to be gone aleady." It's the vet who, upon seeing Willow for the first time, ignores her friendly tail wags and treats her like a dangerous dog, yanking and roughly slinging her around with the slip lead. It's another shelter worker who, after meeting an unsocialized, scared wolfdog who I wanted to send through rescue, calls the dog a "feral, wild thing" and, after assuring me she would be safe until rescue could pull her the next day, proceeds to PUT HER TO SLEEP. Through absolutely NO fault of her own.

Because the lives of these animals are literally at stake - through people perpetuating myths and vague fears, which feed ban laws and BSL - there is no way I can just leave these statements alone on a public forum.


----------



## pugmom

First of all slow down and chill out....I have not for one moment said anything disrespectfull about wolf/dogs...If I have offended you then I am sorry ...so please take your anger and frustration out on someone else.....when I say IMO I don't think wolfs should be at the DP its as much for the animals protection as anything else....I think you maybe confused regarding when I was talking about wolfs (pure) and wolf/dog mixes.

I did not say that the dog in the picture is a wolf/dog...and I never said that I could tell from site the difference .....so please go back and read my posts again......as for "Do you have experience with phenotyping wolfdogs"...no I do not because I don't need to .....I have not tired to do this and I will thank you for not accusing me of it.


Do I think that dogs and wolfs are the same animal...NO......is it possible that dogs came from wolfs thousands of years ago ?..maybe?...... I'm still reading about both sides of this argument......I really don't like the thought of breeding dogs and wolfs...no because I don't like wolfs or think they are evil...but because I love them and respect then and think they should be free and in the wild where they belong....I don't see a need at this time to be breeding them and if there is a good reason they need to be kept with people who know what they are doing..no the GP

I feel that taking a wolf or wolf dog to a DP is a gamble the same way taking a PB to the DP is a gamble.....if anything negative happened who do YOU think is going to end up with the short side of the stick?

Do I think a wolf/dog is more likely to attack then a regular dog....if put in a challenging position I have no idea .....its hard to guess what a wild animal would do in a setting such as a DP...I'm guessing that is not a natural habitat for a wolf...*I would also guess it depends on the % of the mix to a certain extent....Lots of strange dogs and humans running around in an excited state...through in food/toys/and a lot of owners who dogs don't have great manners or training (at least at the dp I have been to )..I'm guessing anything is possible

Do I think a wolf is more likely to attack then a Dog?....I would have to say yes...I would be more comfortable confronting a stray dog the if I ran into a wolf in the wild....No I don't think the wolf would automatically attack me (more then likely he would run away is my guess)....but I'm also not going to push my luck 


Do I think wolf dogs are horrible eveil things?...hell no...just like I don't think PB are....I don't think they should be put down, I believe they should have a chance just like any other dog....they should go to good homes w/people who are experianced


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## nekomi

OK, I can see where you are coming from now, Pugmom. I'm sorry for my heated reaction, I thought you were coming from a completely different perspective.



> when I say IMO I don't think wolfs should be at the DP its as much for the animals protection as anything else





> I feel that taking a wolf or wolf dog to a DP is a gamble the same way taking a PB to the DP is a gamble.....if anything negative happened who do YOU think is going to end up with the short side of the stick?


I see what you were saying now - my apologies for misunderstanding. I completely agree with you on this, and was going to bring it up in my previous post but figured you were coming from a completely different perspective.



> .I don't see a need at this time to be breeding them and if there is a good reason they need to be kept with people who know what they are doing..


I agree with you, wolfdogs should not be bred - we have so many of them in rescue because of irresponsible breeding and people acquiring them without knowing what they're doing.

Thank you for taking the time to respond, again I'm really sorry about the misunderstanding. I've run across so many bad attitudes regarding these animals that I guess I am a little jaded, and quick to jump the gun. Again, my apologies.


----------



## pugmom

nekomi said:


> OK, I can see where you are coming from now, Pugmom. I'm sorry for my heated reaction, I thought you were coming from a completely different perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I see what you were saying now - my apologies for misunderstanding. I completely agree with you on this, and was going to bring it up in my previous post but figured you were coming from a completely different perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you, wolfdogs should not be bred - we have so many of them in rescue because of irresponsible breeding and people acquiring them without knowing what they're doing.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to respond, again I'm really sorry about the misunderstanding. I've run across so many bad attitudes regarding these animals that I guess I am a little jaded, and quick to jump the gun. Again, my apologies.




I understand believe me......I have the same issue regarding Pit bulls...as you can see from many of my posts I love them and I am quick to get passionate when discussing the many issues that plague them.


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## nekomi

> I understand believe me......I have the same issue regarding Pit bulls...as you can see from many of my posts I love them and I am quick to get passionate when discussing the many issues that plague them.


I didn't know you were a pibble fan.  I am too, and I have a ton of respect and admiration for the work you guys do promoting them. In many ways, I think you all have it worse than the wolfdog community does.


----------



## pugmom

nekomi said:


> I didn't know you were a pibble fan.  I am too, and I have a ton of respect and admiration for the work you guys do promoting them. In many ways, I think you all have it worse than the wolfdog community does.




Yes love them dearly.....the 3rd Dog in my siggy is Isis....she is a 1yr old APBT


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## 4dogs3cats

pugmom said:


> Considering that wolfs are wild animals .....I'm not sure how much "control" a person can have over them...how many times have we seen trainers, handlers, researchers injured by the animals that they work with on a daily basis?...no IMO they do not belong at the DP nor do they need to be owned by novices ....but I also agree that I don't want an out of control chihuahua at the DP ether...but we can't even trust people not to bring those so why would I trust someone with a wolf?
> 
> Why not to bring a PB to the DP has been discussed multiple times so I really don't want to *Hijack this thread* ....there are quite a few good reasons...mostly to protect the PB


lol I totally forgot about this thread! But I understand what you mean. Sometimes youd rather just save your breath,

I havent seen that dog there since and I go every single day. What I was saying is that in that situation the dog shouldnt have been there. He says he believes there is wolf in her AND he found her AS A STRAY in the desert. (Again we have decided now its probably not wolf but coyote.) IMHO no that dog does not belong at the dp.

Isnt it true that the rabies vaccine has not been proven to work on wolf hybrids? If this is the case then yes, the owner was breaking the dp rules.


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## ValtheAussie

Wild kind of dog/wolf/coyote/dingo mixes should be kept away from babies and children, that's for sure.

If there are kids at the dog park, I don't think it would be safe to have these types of animal hybrids around, just in case, you dont want something awful to happen.

Dog owners need to know their dogs and be responsible citizens, first and foremost.

Bad publicity is the last thing that dogs need in these desparate times.


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## nekomi

> Isnt it true that the rabies vaccine has not been proven to work on wolf hybrids? If this is the case then yes, the owner was breaking the dp rules.


That's not exactly true. It's a complicated issue, with the USDA contradicting itself on their own position. Studies and titer tests have shown that the rabies vaccine DOES work on wolfdogs, but after many attempts there is still no USDA approval for them. Here are some links:

http://www.floridalupine.org/rabies/rabies2.htm

http://www.wolfdogalliance.org/legislation/rabiesissue.html

http://www.inetdesign.com/coalition/issue.html

In a nutshell:



> From the AVMA
> 
> Wolf and wolf-dog crosses not eligible to be added to dog vaccine labels
> 
> According to the April 18, 2001 Federal Register, the USDA-APHIS is withdrawing its September 28, 1999 proposed rule to amend the Virus-Serum-Toxin Act regulations by adding a definition of the term dog. The proposed rule would have defined the term dog to include all members of the species Canis familiaris or Canis lupus, or any wolf-dog cross, allowing any licensed vaccines labeled for use in dogs to be licensed and labeled for use in wolves and any wolf-dog cross.
> 
> In September of 2000, the AVMA House of Delegates supported a recommendation by the Council on Biologic and Therapeutic Agents opposing the 1999 proposed rule.
> 
> The rule was initially published when supporters of a petition submitted data showing that more than 600 wolves and wolf-dog crosses had been vaccinated with vaccines licensed for dogs, without any reported adverse reactions.
> 
> Public comment led the USDA to withdraw the proposal rule. Those who opposed the rule did so for three reasons, according to the Federal Register. Sufficient safety and efficacy data were not established by controlled studies to support adding indications for wolf and wolf-crosses to the label of vaccines licensed for dogs. Also, despite the lack of voluntary reported adverse reactions by owners of approximately 600 vaccinated wolf and wolf-dog crosses, a valid scientific inference of efficacy cannot be made about the product's safety. Finally, there is the concern that including wolf and wolf-crosses in the definition of dog sends a misleading message that wolves and wolf-dog crosses are safe as house pets, when, in actuality, such animals can be highly unpredictable and can have dangerous, instinctive wild behaviors.
> 
> After considering the above, USDA-APHIS, concluded that "many of the concerns expressed allowing canine rabies vaccines for use in wolves and wolf-dog crosses have sufficient merit to warrant withdrawal of our proposal and reevaluation of this issue."
> 
> After the proposal was withdrawn, Dr. Bonnie V. Beaver, a member of the AVMA Executive Board, said, "While veterinarians recognize that having an approved rabies vaccine for wolves and wolf hybrids is desirable, this proposal could have had a significant, negative effect on public health by eliminating the USDA's own requirement of proving rabies vaccine efficacy through direct virus challenge.
> 
> "[The proposal] would have set a serious legal precedent by allowing wolves and wolf-hybrids to be called dogs. Taxonomy classifies dogs and wolf-hybrids as subspecies of wolves, not the other way around."


----------



## 4dogs3cats

nekomi said:


> That's not exactly true. It's a complicated issue, with the USDA contradicting itself on their own position. Studies and titer tests have shown that the rabies vaccine DOES work on wolfdogs, but after many attempts there is still no USDA approval for them. Here are some links:
> 
> http://www.floridalupine.org/rabies/rabies2.htm
> 
> http://www.wolfdogalliance.org/legislation/rabiesissue.html
> 
> http://www.inetdesign.com/coalition/issue.html
> 
> In a nutshell:


So than TECHNICALLY they are vaccinated if the owner gets them vaccinated, but legally they cannot prove it? Makes sense


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## dakotajo

my last dog was a Shepard/wolf mix. My daughter was 3 years old when we got her as a puppy, they grew up together just fine. She was great with kids and people (except for the odd teenage boy, but the boys would bug her through the fence and torment her) she could of cared less about about other dogs. She didn't look like the pictures shown above, she was a darker tan color with black muzzle and ears, she was medium build, longer legs and very swift on her feet, never had a fat day in her life, lived to be almost 14 yrs. As she matured she really liked her space and loved to run, quite the loner actually. She was fine with all the cats I rescued, ignored them. She passed away 4 yrs. in July. That dog was my heart


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## Pepper

> Wild kind of dog/wolf/coyote/dingo mixes should be kept away from babies and children, that's for sure.


Well that is so not true...There is just as much a risk with regular dogs as hybrid mixes...Neither Wolves/coyotes/dingos/or dogs are unpredicatable, everything does something for a reason.


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## 4dogs3cats

Pepper said:


> Well that is so not true...There is just as much a risk with regular dogs as hybrid mixes...Neither Wolves/coyotes/dingos/or dogs are unpredicatable, everything does something for a reason.


I would agree they should never be left alone with children but I think under supervision I dont see a huge problem. Depends on the dog.


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## nekomi

> I would agree they should never be left alone with children but I think under supervision I dont see a huge problem. Depends on the dog.


Same as with any other dog breed that exhibits a natural, unmodified prey drive. Not only should they never be left unsupervised, the owner needs to have a good handle on canine body language too, recognizing the early signs of fixation, and interpreting them correctly.


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## ValtheAussie

I think that in the scope of things wolf hybrids are more worrisome around kids and babies than say, a chi wa wa, eh? Fair enough?


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## nekomi

> I think that in the scope of things wolf hybrids are more worrisome around kids and babies than say, a chi wa wa, eh? Fair enough?


Of course. I think pretty much ANY large dog breed would be more worrisome around kids and babies than a chihuahua. Just plain old common sense. 

Notice I was comparing them to other large dog breeds with a naturally high prey drive. Personally, in my experience, the prey drive of a wolfdog is roughly the same as that of a Husky or other Northern breed. So, I'd say they are no more worrisome than the typical Northern dog in these respects - but it all boils down to the individual dog. I can say for a fact that both wolfdogs I've cared for, have had less of a prey drive than Sibes I have met.


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## Pepper

> but it all boils down to the individual dog


Exactly, if you know your dog/hybrid isn't good around kids, then don't bring them around kids.

A guy in town used to have a 3/4 wolf 1/4 husky. He had it since it was a baby and it looked just like a black wolf in any yellowstone or national geo magazine. He had all the right structure and anatomy of a wolf. (Wolf hybrids are VERY common up here) Anywhoo, this dog was so sweet, and big enough to were the guy would let little kids ride on his back, it was adorable, and the wolf/dog loved the attention!

The other dogs knew he was a wolf though. They would always try to attack him, and get at him, and the wolf ended up killing a few dogs who antagonized him enough to wear he busted his chain and jumped a 10 foot fence. He had a crazy prey drive though, and would go out and try to kill moose...lol


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## rosemaryninja

ValtheAussie said:


> I think that in the scope of things wolf hybrids are more worrisome around kids and babies than say, a chi wa wa, eh? Fair enough?


This creature is also more worrisome around babies than a Chihuahua.










Soooo...


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## Kara W

This looks more like a german shepherd, husky or malamute mix. It has the big body and curved tail like a malamute, but the pointed face and skinny legs like a german shepherd. It really doesn't look like a wolf hybrid to me.



4dogs3cats said:


> lol I totally forgot about this thread! But I understand what you mean. Sometimes youd rather just save your breath,
> 
> I havent seen that dog there since and I go every single day. What I was saying is that in that situation the dog shouldnt have been there. He says he believes there is wolf in her AND he found her AS A STRAY in the desert. (Again we have decided now its probably not wolf but coyote.) IMHO no that dog does not belong at the dp.
> 
> Isnt it true that the rabies vaccine has not been proven to work on wolf hybrids? If this is the case then yes, the owner was breaking the dp rules.




Ok I understand that wolves are wild animals, but ALL dogs are descendants of wolves. So how much control can you have over your own dog? I mean i understand where you are coming from but everyone really needs to think about their control over your own pet.


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## Eris13021

http://www.coydog.us/sundanceranch.html
http://www.animalpicturesarchive.com/view.php?tid=3&did=26231
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/wolamutephotos.htm

that dog looks more coyote to me with a malamute body


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## Cesare Borgia

What about this guy, It's my old neigbors dog and he said it was 75% wolf


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## Pickleisaminidaschi

He sure looks like a wolf, but isn't against the law to own a wolf as a pet? Hmmm.... maybe a hybrid.








There are wolves around where I live, I live way out in the country, my friend took this.



nekomi said:


> That's not exactly true. It's a complicated issue, with the USDA contradicting itself on their own position. Studies and titer tests have shown that the rabies vaccine DOES work on wolfdogs, but after many attempts there is still no USDA approval for them. Here are some links:
> 
> http://www.floridalupine.org/rabies/rabies2.htm
> 
> http://www.wolfdogalliance.org/legislation/rabiesissue.html
> 
> http://www.inetdesign.com/coalition/issue.html
> 
> In a nutshell:


This is off topic but your huskies are beautiful. I always wanted a husky but I live where it is warm and thought that would be a little mean. Again wonderful and beautiful.


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## 4dogs3cats

Kara W said:


> Ok I understand that wolves are wild animals, but ALL dogs are descendants of wolves. So how much control can you have over your own dog? I mean i understand where you are coming from but everyone really needs to think about their control over your own pet.


I dont really want to get into the whole wolf debate. But IF dog are descendants from wolves, its sooooooooo far "watered down" if you will, that the wolf traits are not common as they are in wolf hybrids.

A dog that is 50% wolf is going to posses a lot of wolf qualities.

Just like if you bred a husky to a lab, and then you kept breeding one of the offspring to a pure lab. A couple littlers down the road, you're not going to see much husky.

EDIT- and by the way, my 7- pound german shepherd is wonderful with kids. My sister in laws 4 pound chihuahua freaks out when he sees kids. All boils down to the individual dog. But as a rule, no, I dont think they belong at the dp. I also dont think pits do. I KNOW that there are tons of well behaved wolf hybrids and pits, but I would not bring my dog into an environment where he is going to fail. EXACTLY why I dont bring my GSD to the dog park. it kills me every day when i go, but he gets safer exercise after I get home anyway.


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## Pepper

> my 7- pound german shepherd


 I think you need to fatten that boy up!!!



> I don't really want to get into the whole wolf debate. But IF dog are descendants from wolves, its sooooooooo far "watered down" if you will, that the wolf traits are not common as they are in wolf hybrids.


Exactly, just as people are not chimps, even though we have 99% of our DNA in common. That 1% makes a big difference.


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## deege39

stinkin_lincoln said:


> First off even if it is a wolf doesnt mean it doesnt belong at a dog park. If we didnt have wolves or coyotes we wouldnt have dogs. I dont like Chows or Akitas but I would never say they should not be at the dog park because of their unpredictability. Wolves are the same. If they are raised right and cared for they can make wonderful dogs.


I don't know about that... It's always been a belief of mine that wolves and other wild animals have instincts, more primal than that of our "Pomeranians"... If I took a Wolf, raised it with love, never lifted a hand with the intent to strike, and cared for it in every way... I really doubt that that'd be enough to calm those instincts, and the "prey-drive" I've heard about... I could take that Wolf to the dog-park, what's keeping it from tearing apart our "Pomeranian"?

I could be completely wrong... But I'm sure there's someone here that would know the answer to my question.


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## MissMutt

I think this might be the most popular thread in the picture forum. It floats up like once a month lol


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## 4dogs3cats

MissMutt said:


> I think this might be the most popular thread in the picture forum. It floats up like once a month lol


Every time I come to check this forum, I see this is my user CP and I'm like "_really_? *STILL*?" lol.

I dont think she was a wolf anymore, I think she was part coyote. I have not seen her there since though. Strange...


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## TxRider

tirluc said:


> actually, looks very much like the coy-dog i had.....she was smaller than that one but we're not sure what the cross was (the vet thought sm husky).....Ki was only about 30# at full weight......she really resembled the coyote, tho


That's what I was going to say, looks more like coy mix than wolf mix if anything.


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## Snowshoe x)

Thats a no-low content. I don't see much wolf, and the fact that it curls his tail, even more. I agree about the shepherd and the husky/malamute mix.
And no, it looks more like a wolfdog than a coyote mix. I don't see any coyote traits in there.It does look a bit wolf-ish, but then again, alot of huskyxShepherd mixes I know are often misinterpretated as wolfdogs.

I own a low content wolfdog myself, but we only see her wolf traits in her temperament, and a tad in her eyes.


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## GreatDaneMom

we had a wolf hybrid that used to come to the daycare i worked at. the owners got mad if you said "wolf hybrid" because they said "NO HES AN AMERICAN INDIAN DOG!!!" now- as we all know those are near extinct... but he was def. a wolf hybrid. i wish i still had pics of him i would put them up on here. the way he walked, he was slow and with his head low all the time, like he was constantly scoping things out. his feet and legs were shaped different than the dogs, he didnt walk up on his toes as a lot of other dogs naturally do, his ears were really hairy inside and out, and thick, he would get really skinny in the summer and heavy in the winter- and his coat colors changed to the season, his tail didnt curl and was held low all the time, his eyes were a golden color, and he had an attitude. if you scolded him for anything he would just glare and grumble at you, he never played hard just cruised around and had maybe one or two dogs he would regularly wrestle a little with- got hyper playing only once in a great while. never barked really, just grumbled and howled.


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## Snowshoe x)

Those aren't really signs of a wolfdog. (Its not a wolf hybrid, because Dogs are a sub species from wolves (Wolves: Canis Lupus. Dogs: Canis Familiaris.)
Anyways, I'm sure the owner knew what her dogs breed was.

I have had people argue with me that my purebred Champion Siberian husky was part wolf. Ehhh no, I don't think so 

Of course, many of us wolfdog owners don't go around and say we have wolfdogs, so maybe you are right.


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## RBark

People frequently mistake Kobe for a full wolf or (insert content of your choice) wolfdog.

He's neither, of course.

To be honest, none of the stuff you listed are unique to wolves.



> the way he walked, he was slow and with his head low all the time, like he was constantly scoping things out.
> 
> --snip--
> 
> his tail didnt curl and was held low all the time,












Kobe does this a lot. Not as much as many dogs, but when he's fixating on something, or on his surroundings, his tail will be down and when he walks his head will be low.

I see other huskies and malamutes doing the same thing often. It's not really wolf behavior. It's fairly common in dogs too, especially certain breeds.



> his feet and legs were shaped different than the dogs, he didnt walk up on his toes as a lot of other dogs naturally do,


Kobe's paws are 3 1/4" wide. Might want a tape measure to visualize that lol.



> is ears were really hairy inside and out, and thick, he would get really skinny in the summer and heavy in the winter- and his coat colors changed to the season,


A trait common to all Huskies and Malamutes. We call it the winter coat and the summer coat. Kobe doubles in size in winter and shrinks in summer. Many double coated breeds do that.



> and he had an attitude. if you scolded him for anything he would just glare and grumble at you, he never played hard just cruised around and had maybe one or two dogs he would regularly wrestle a little with- got hyper playing only once in a great while. never barked really, just grumbled and howled.


That's also Kobe to a T. When he goes to the dog park, he just cruised the perimeter, observed all the dogs, sometimes joining in to play but not often. He never barks, just talks and howls. The grumbling and howling and vocalizing is very common husky/malamute traits. The aloof behavior is also very common for nordic dogs.

Sorry but, none of these are uniquely wolf behavior. You basically just described Kobe, with the exception of when his tail snaps back (when running or hardcore playing) and Kobe just has a extreme tail. There's plenty of dogs whose tail doesn't curl as much.


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## ErisAlpine

I am fairly certain that that is a Coywolf, they are not as uncommon as some may suspect. Even where I live, we do not have wolves as apart of our local fauna, but a large majority of our coyotes have been proven to be hybrids between coyote and Algonquin wolf. The breeding took place during migration and a large majority of the coyotes here come from that line. Where I am, we are over run with these coyotes and there are now bounty hunters in search of them, I see them quite often and I am sure that is what I am looking at in your pic, but obviously a different line since you are located in Arizona.

I will say that I am amazed at how domestic this dog appears to be. Coyotes are tamable it raised from a very young age, but it is near impossible to breed out their wild instinct completely and a tame coyote does not normally take too well around other domestic dogs unless it is breeding season. Whoever adopted that beautiful creature must of put a exceptional amount of work into socialization.


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## GreatDaneMom

ok well i guess i know nothing. he even gave me the name of the breeder and i looked at her website, and she was breeding wolf hybrids and calling them american indian dogs..... i cant remember who it was or i would tell you, it was over a year ago.


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## Snowshoe x)

ErisAlpine -http://myarchive.us/richc/2009/eastern_coywolf.jpg
The picture I posted is of a real coywolf. Now, the fact that you think this dog is a wild coywolf makes me laugh. First, coywolves are insanely rare, and I doubt that someone cpuld own one, let alone bring it to the dog park. 
Second, this animal just screams husky/malamute, just by the way its tail curled up on its back. Theres no coyote or coywolf traits in that dog, and I don't see much wolf either. Coywilves and mid to high content wolfdogs wouldn't go and play at the dog patk or go really close to strangers like that, they are very shy animals.


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## ErisAlpine

Snowshoe x) said:


> ErisAlpine -http://myarchive.us/richc/2009/eastern_coywolf.jpg
> The picture I posted is of a real coywolf. Now, the fact that you think this dog is a wild coywolf makes me laugh. First, coywolves are insanely rare, and I doubt that someone cpuld own one, let alone bring it to the dog park.
> Second, this animal just screams husky/malamute, just by the way its tail curled up on its back. Theres no coyote or coywolf traits in that dog, and I don't see much wolf either. Coywilves and mid to high content wolfdogs wouldn't go and play at the dog patk or go really close to strangers like that, they are very shy animals.


The idea that this dog "screams" husky/malamute is what I find laughable. I have had husky's and have been around enough Malamutes to know that this dog is neither. The last Husky breeder I got mine from specialized in the less common colors/markings, The mother of my last husky was in the wolf gray shade. Not commonly seen in mainstream Huskys although they are not rare, but I tell you this there was no way she could be mistaken for a coyote or wolf. A dog cannot be identified by colors/markings alone.

And as I said, Where I am there is a real problem with the over population of coywolves. Drive through my province and you will see them all through our highways..better yet, sub divisions are the best place for sightings because no, they no longer have a fear of humans here anymore. It is not uncommon to find one on our front steps or lurking through the the busy streets in metropolitan areas. They are not elusive or shy given the right circumstances. They can be rather brazen actually. Matter of fact my mother had one while growing up..along with a fox. Although it refused to be in the house for any period of time, it was fully tame and lived in harmony with the other dogs but not livestock as that was his weakness. So yes they CAN be domesticated if taken in at a young enough age. So why could the dog in question here not be tamed if it is indeed a coywolf?

And as for them being insanely rare, no they are not. Not here, the fact that Eastern Canada and some parts of North Eastern US have some of the biggest coyotes in the world has raised questions. Because of this a study was conducted and as a result a large quantity did turn out to be hybrid descendants. I have have recently had a conversation with my uncle about this as we watched one roam though his back property. He has been a game warden for 20+ years, I am completely confident that he knows what he is talking about. Im am certain that that is a coyote or coywolf in that pic. Its muzzle alone speaks a thousand words. If it is a domestic dog, then I must be blind.


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## RBark

Sorry, I have to double check.

Are you saying this animal screams husky/malamute?

Or are you talking about a different picture?

I do volunteer work in Norsled Siberian Husky Rescue. And this dog looks like a CLEAR Coyote mix. I would not have pegged that dog as a Husky/Malamute at all.

Don't get me wrong, I have seen dozens of "wolfdogs" and "coydogs" come through our rescue. Only one time have we seen one that is actually a wolfdog. So I know most of them are BS.

But if that dog pictured came through the rescue, I would be 100% certain it's some kind of Coyote mix. We have a lot of coyotes here in CA, so I'm quite familiar with what they look like.

Unless of course, you're talking about a different dog/picture. Then disregard my post.


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## gui0601

wow what a great animal


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## Snowshoe x)

RBark - Im talking about the OPs pictures.

I will be making a better reply once I get on my computer.


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## RBark

Snowshoe x) said:


> RBark - Im talking about the OPs pictures.
> 
> I will be making a better reply once I get on my computer.


Oh, yeah, the OP dog is clearly a malamute, husky, and/or GSD mix. I agree on that.


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## Snowshoe x)

ErisAlpine- ok, here goes for that long information post  
First of all, just wanted to say that I have been around wolves/coyotes and wolfdogs since I was about..eh.. 6 years old? My uncle owns Tundra wolves (Wolf and wolfdog rescue) up north Quebec, and I'm afiliated with some amazing wolfdog owners/experts, not to mention I own one myself, that beeing said, incase you don't believe my credebility. Second of all, sorry for any typing mistakes or typos, my keyboard is dead. Anyways, first of all, I was talking about the OPs pictures. lets go into description mode, shall we? 

*WOLFDOGS:*

wolfdog is an animal that is part wolf and part dog. They usually aren't a direct wolf x dog cross, however. They are usually wolfdog x wolfdog, but of course they can be wolf x wolfdog or dog x wolfdog as well. Some people refer to them as "hybrids", but I prefer not to use that term for my own personal reasons. Wolfdogs are NOT wild animals. They are always the product of 2 domesticated animals, even if one parent is pure wolf. They are NOT the result of tying out a dog in heat in Alaska and hoping that a wolf bred with her. Although wolves and dogs share over 99% of the same DNA sequence, there are some physical and behavioral differences between wolves and dogs. These differences can be correctly assessed when evaluating the content range of a particular wolfdog. 

*Now, lets compare.*

The head of a wolf is large in comparison to its body. The angle of the side of the head running from the eyes to the ears should be at least 45 degrees, giving the head a wedge shape. There should be a slight stop at the eyes. The width of the skull at the occipital bone (bump at the back of the skull) should be two-thirds the total length of the skull from the occipital bone to the eyes. Most dogs will not possess these head structures.

The length of the wolf's muzzle should be the same length or slightly longer as the skull from occipital bone to the eys. The lips should be close-fitting and black in color. Jaws should be massive and muscled. Most sled dogs have shorter muzzles; however GSDs have very similar muzzles.

A wolf’s nose is large and black. Many sled dogs have pink or striped "snow noses".

The ears of a wolf are medium-sized in relation to the head and are well-furred inside. The ears join the skull on a line with the upper corner of the eye giving a wide appearance between them. The tips of the ears are rounded. Long ears, or ears set further on top of the head are signs of GSD. Short pointy ears are common in some sled dogs. Floppy ears indicate a very low/no content animal.

Their eyes are almond-shaped, close-set and form a 45 degree angle on the face. Wolves ONLY have amber, yellow, or rarely green eyes. Blue eyes are an indication of husky inheritance and mean the animal is most likely low content.

All canines should have 42 teeth. The wolf will have longer canine teeth than most dogs. These teeth should appear massive and curve slightly toward the inside of the mouth. Some breeds of dogs like sled dogs will have smaller canine teeth. GSDs will have similar teeth being just slightly smaller.

Now, the pictures posted by the OP, indicate a no/low content. Its clearly a mix of husky/malamute and maybe some shepherd in there.









Thats a wolf (above)









Low content wolfdog (above)
Now, wich one of these does the OPs pictures look like?
BAM!​


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## nekomi

Snowshoe - I am applauding here!!! As a fellow wolfdog owner and rescuer, it is SO SO SO REFRESHING to read such a well-informed and thorough post here on DF.

Hope you stick around.


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## Snowshoe x)

nekomi said:


> Snowshoe - I am applauding here!!! As a fellow wolfdog owner and rescuer, it is SO SO SO REFRESHING to read such a well-informed and thorough post here on DF.
> 
> Hope you stick around.


-shrugs- Thankies!
I don't intend on leaving, and I think I should make an informative post about wolfdogs, because it seems that anything with pointy ears,alot of fur, and a long muzzle looks like a wolf.

You can message me too, I would loove to talk wolves/wolfdogs/ dogs in general.

I really hope to rescue a mid/high content one day, they need true rescuing from horrible people who only own them for their looks or for the fun of having a wolf mix.


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