# Miniature Australian Shepherds



## tgrsnpr (Oct 1, 2008)

Does anyone know anything about these miniature australian shepherds? are they purebred or are they mixed to make them mini? Does anyone have any experiences with them? 

thanks a bunch


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I'm told by some people they are purebred, I'm told by others thta they are mixes. All I know is that the Aussie people I respect most loathe them, and I've yet to meet one that is NOT shy or snappish.


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

No experience, but I did find the following.

The history of the miniature Australian Shepherd is the same as that of the Australian Shepherd until approximately the 1960s. Thereafter, fanciers formed member clubs and registries to promote the smaller dogs in particular. While there were at one point in the past a few enthusiasts who wanted to pursue recognition as a separate breed, the fancy as a whole and the clubs that focus on the smaller sized Aussies consider the dogs merely a size variety of the Australian Shepherd. *The parent clubs of the Australian Shepherd however do not recognize a size variety of the Australian Shepherd.*
Miniature Australian Shepherds can be registered with the National Stock Dog Registry (NSDR), MASCA, NAMASCUSA and a variety of other registeries. Toy Australian Shepherds can also be registered with TASAA.org

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_Australian_Shepherd


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## Chico'sMom (Apr 10, 2008)

I have not had personal experience with theses dogs, but there is one that is in my current dog class. He is very friendly, to people and the other dogs, and he does pretty well in class also. Sometimes the owner has trouble keeping his attention, but he is only around seven months old. I had never heard of them before I met the one in class, but I got a good impression from him. 
I do not know about them being purebred or mix. The owner mentioned she got one from a breeder, but I did not ask further questions.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Dogstar said:


> I'm told by some people they are purebred, I'm told by others thta they are mixes. All I know is that the Aussie people I respect most loathe them, and I've yet to meet one that is NOT shy or snappish.


Word for word ditto. 

People I know & respect with Aussies say they're mixes and bad for the breed (and therefore bad for dogs in general). The few people I've met with minis say they're not mixes and are wonderful dogs. Which, incidently, is the same arguements I've heard for and against 'doodles. 

I personally have not met any minis. I know tons and tons of Aussies, though, and know there's a great variety of sizes within the breed. My concern over the breeders of minis would be the same as a breeder of teacup Chihuahuas or Yorkies -- are they breeding to fit a fad? And at what expense to the dog's health?


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## Lili (Feb 3, 2008)

You may wish to consult this thread:

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/28179-question-aussies.html


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

We have met a mini aussie. The problem I saw with this dog was it had the rough and tumble huge personailty of the larger aussie but, was very fragile physically. It ran straight up to my dog to play like his other aussie friends and yelped like he was hurt from a very minor half body slam. There is no way that physical fragility can be an improvement in the breed so, I wouldn't trust any breeder that was breeding for a mini Aussie. Just my opinion.


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## PugChick (Nov 5, 2007)

I have seen sooo many of these dogs at the horse shows, and my old boss had 3. 

Type varies wildly. Some truly do look like mini aussies, some look almost like oversized poms. Even within related lines from the same breeder the dogs can vary greatly. 

The one nice one I met died of cancer at age 3. The owner went and paid $1200 for a half-sister to that dog and the new one is very fear aggressive and looks strongly like a merle sheltie. 

Some are low key, some are super high-energy and want to herd, herd, herd!! 

I think the aussie-looking one are cute, but no way would I pay purebred prices for a dog that's as much of a grab-bag surprise as a mystery puppy from the animal shelter.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

In our Agility class there is a mini Aussie. He is a sturdily built little dog, not fragile looking at all, just looks like an Aussie only smaller. He does really well in the Agility, just love to watch him do the weave poles.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Just copying and posting what I wrote in another "mini aussie thread"


Don't bring this topic up in an aussie only forum, it will elicit something along the lines of what the doodle threads do here. The toys and minis are not real aussies. The majority of them have been crossbred with smaller breeds (pomeranians and papillons usually) to get the smaller size. Most of them have health issues, they generally come from puppymills and backyard breeders who are breeding only for size (and novel colors often), which means other things take a back seat (like temperament and health). The people who do breed good ones do not call the toy or mini aussies, they usually have another name for them . . . I can't recall what it is at the moment, maybe american shepherd or something like that. The majority of them have very bad herding instincts btw, many of the "toy/mini aussie" breeders pride themselves in having bred out the herding instinct to "make them better pets".


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

i have met a few. 

one was nicknamed "fat guy in a little coat" b/c she literally looked like a fat guy in a little coat (she was very fat, but only gained the weight in her topline, instead of all over) she was a very bitchy dog. she liked most people, but tolerated very few dogs. she was nippy, fearful, and very nervous in any situation involving other dogs and playing. as far as i can tell, the owners were not the complete problem. they did little too fix it but claimed she had been like that since they got her.

the next one was a beautiful dog. he was the epitome of a mini aussie. but he was one of those dogs that only some loved. he was a bully, but nowhere near the size a bully should be, so like other said, he got hurt a lot b/c of his size/bullyness. he was also very yappy, and would bite to show affection. this one was owned by an older couple who did very well on the obediance training, but not so much on the getting the energy out.

dont let others fool you. these dogs are the result of bad breeding. no respectable breeder would breed these dogs.


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## Orange County Ca (Apr 6, 2007)

I would be leary of what the pure bred fanciers say. They always seem to have an axe to grind. Only their dog is worthwhile.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

every dog is different...



though i would pick a sheltie over a mini aussie and save myself the negative comments


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## tgrsnpr (Oct 1, 2008)

Thanks a lot. I guess I'll give in second thoughts before really getting one or like wot Criosphynx said get a sheltie instead of a mini.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Orange County Ca said:


> I would be leary of what the pure bred fanciers say. They always seem to have an axe to grind. Only their dog is worthwhile.


Most of their problem is that they are calling them mini aussies, when they are not. There are no different sizes to the aussie, just aussies, no mini, standard giant ect. The people who are really trying to get this type of dog into a breed are calling them something else. Most of the people calling them mini aussies are trying to make a quick buck.


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## Lili (Feb 3, 2008)

tgrsnpr said:


> Thanks a lot. I guess I'll give in second thoughts before really getting one or like wot Criosphynx said get a sheltie instead of a mini.


If you're set on an Aussie, you can still look at the "standard" ones... Mine is 32 pounds and around 17 inches tall - which does not meet the Aussie's standards I think (for height). Point is, you can find smallish Aussies from time to time... I was looking at "Minis" first, but I'm glad I waited and found my petite real-deal Aussie! Love her to pieces!


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Here's a direct quote from the Aussie AKC standard


> Size--The preferred height for males is 20-23 inches, females 18-21 inches. Quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size.


That means there is no height requirement for the breed, but merely a prefered height.


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## Chels_girl (Aug 2, 2008)

Oh my gosh, I am just a smidge appalled by some of this...I have a Minnie, and would never, ever trade her for a bigger Aussie. They're amazing dogs, just like an aussie but smaller. And the thing about them not being a real Aussie is well...Bull. My minnie acts more like an Aussie than my Dad's full sized Aussie.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Chels_girl said:


> Oh my gosh, I am just a smidge appalled by some of this...I have a Minnie, and would never, ever trade her for a bigger Aussie. They're amazing dogs, just like an aussie but smaller. And the thing about them not being a real Aussie is well...Bull. My minnie acts more like an Aussie than my Dad's full sized Aussie.


Maybe that's true for your dog, but I hardly think that the story of one dog can go against the reputable breeders and registries that indicate otherwise. 

It's kind of like saying... my grandmother has a GSD that just lies around and sleeps all day. That must mean all GSDs are lazy, unmotivated dogs. (Which, as I'm sure you know, is hardly the case.)


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I've seen some mini aussies that look just like smaller aussies and some that look wall eyed and strange...I was told that this look comes from breeding them down in size too quickly...don't know if that's true....and then some that clearly look like poms or paps, I wish I had a picture of this one I saw...I swear it was a tri color papillon, so I definitely believe it depends on the breeder.

You can get a smaller than standard aussie though without looking at minis specifically, I'm seeing "standard" aussies in the 35 lb range all the time.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What I've found is there are two kinds of 'mini aussies' so to speak. One is one of those vague type breeds where many people consider them not reputable but they seem to be putting up some sort of effort, so I have to give them props for that. We can debate how reputable they are...

http://www.namascusa.com/
http://www.mascaonline.net/index.htm

Then there's these, which seem to be a lot more common.

http://www.toyminiaussies.com/

When they say things like this:



> We bred for companion PETS with loving temperments- less herding, less energy, but with the looks, colors & intelligence of the aussie in a "city sized" - "cityfied " dog





> we breed for COMPANIONS & FAMILY PETS. we have selectively bred over years & generations to reduce the "energy, herding or "aggressiveness" in our Toy and miniature aussies while striving to keep the Looks and intellegence


Yeah, that's not an aussie. They say they don't crossbreed, but they have to. You can't get an aussie to look like that without adding in another breed. Many look like sheltie mixes or pom mixes or papillon mixes. 

The Aussie people, both show and working generally agree on not liking the minis. The people I know with mini aussies really seem to love the breed. 

So yes, definitely up in the air. I'd probably try to look for a smaller, working line aussie if I wanted a smaller aussie type dog. Or if I wanted something even smaller, there's shelties, pyr sheps, and border collies.


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## Crazy for Collies (Aug 26, 2007)

Someone I know from agility has a mini aussie. The dog is very sweet and a good agility dog, but it does NOT look like an aussie at all. Its ears stick strait up and have feathers (for lack of a better word) at the tips like a papillon's (which is probably somewhere in its bloodlines).


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## Chels_girl (Aug 2, 2008)

Sydney my minnie is as Aussie as you get, but to be honest some of the comments I've seen on here are well...mean. They're an amazing breed, and I think my baby is the best thing in the world. I turned down getting a Border Collie puppy last year, because I said I"d rather have another Minnie. No offence to Border Collies, they are amazing dogs, and I do want one eventually but I like my Minnies. I don't want to raise hackles with anyone, but they're a real Aussie, just small. Breeder's who say other wise are well...dumb.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Chels_girl said:


> Sydney my minnie is as Aussie as you get, but to be honest some of the comments I've seen on here are well...mean. They're an amazing breed, and I think my baby is the best thing in the world. I turned down getting a Border Collie puppy last year, because I said I"d rather have another Minnie. No offence to Border Collies, they are amazing dogs, and I do want one eventually but I like my Minnies. I don't want to raise hackles with anyone, but they're a real Aussie, just small. Breeder's who say other wise are well...dumb.


Chels_girl, how many mini Aussies have you met?


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## OoWooHoooO (Oct 4, 2008)

I have a mini aussie and a standard aussie. both are just great dogs! my mini loves people, she's not snappy at all and she's a quick learner. it doesn't take her long to pick up a trick.

From everything i've read on the mini aussies they're the same breed as the standard, just a size variant. I hadn't heard of them being mixed with any other breeds until i read some of the posts here. but then i guess there are those breeders who are into the designer dog thing and are trying to get the toy look. I've been around many aussies, minnies and standards. temperaments can vary as with any other breed. But i honestly haven't seen ones that were snappy or skittish. 
though i must say, out of all the minnies i've seen, looks vary greatly! so far my mini has been the biggest one i've seen. the one in our agility class is only 10lbs! whereas my dog is 26lbs and 17in! so she is far from fragile. 

i've seen some that look like standards just smaller (mine), and then there are those bug-eyed ones, and then again there are those ones that look like long haired chihuahuas! 
size ranges from 13in - 18in, 17-35lbs for the minis and the toys are of course smaller. they're the buggy ones.

but ultimately i think you should do your own research into the breed. can't really trust what anyone says. it's all a matter of oppinion. some are breed loyalists/purists whereas others are biased to the minnies (me). so don't take my word for it.


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## Chels_girl (Aug 2, 2008)

I have met quite a few, their is a breeder in our local area and our Obedience School's Clicker training class teacher has a Minnie Aussie who is fantastic. I have met all of Sydney's sister's and brother's, and even her father. Her mother was a Standard Aussie, and was gorgeous. 
OoWooHoooO is right, a real Minnie is just a size variant of an Aussie, selectively bred for a smaller size. They're are mixes with toy breeds, but those are not a real Aussie, they are an Aussie mix.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

There is no size variant of the aussie as the aussie does not have a size requirement. There are plenty of aussies who are smaller, they are just aussies, not "minis". They will never a breed unless they change their name, as some have done to try and really make a breed out of the dogs they love. (north american shepherd I think is what they are calling them). Once you start breeding away from the breed standard you are no longer breeding that breed. Breeding for " less herding, less energy, but with the looks, colors & intelligence of the aussie in a "city sized" - "cityfied " dog" is breeding away from what an aussie is, and its time to change the name.


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## Yogi (Sep 20, 2008)

actually at one time the ASCA did have the breed set in 3 sizes. They ran in small not less than 19.5 at the withers, medium which if I remember correctly was not less than 23 inches and the large not less than 26 inches. Granted I was breeding in the late 60's thru the mid 70's before most even knew of the breed but I remember there was a size classification. I am not sure if this is true today as have not checked the breed club for specific standards. 
But as discussed here, you are not always aware if the breeder is offering a purebred Aussie or one that has been cross bred to a smaller breed to assist in reducing the size.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Chels_girl said:


> I have met quite a few, their is a breeder in our local area and our Obedience School's Clicker training class teacher has a Minnie Aussie who is fantastic. I have met all of Sydney's sister's and brother's, and even her father. Her mother was a Standard Aussie, and was gorgeous.
> OoWooHoooO is right, a real Minnie is just a size variant of an Aussie, selectively bred for a smaller size. They're are mixes with toy breeds, but those are not a real Aussie, they are an Aussie mix.


Melgrj7 answered this post spot on. They might look just like smaller versions of Aussies, but if they are bred for less energy and less herding instinct -- which the Standard Aussie is all about -- how can they possibly still be the same breed? 

How did your breeder breed two Standards and get a litter of Minis unless another breed was thrown in?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

they probably just keep breeding smaller aussies to smaller aussies and make small aussies.

And call them mini to make a new fad and more money.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Pepper said:


> they probably just keep breeding smaller aussies to smaller aussies and make small aussies.
> 
> And call them mini to make a new fad and more money.


Even if they just breed runts to runts (teacup Chi style), we're talking about a pretty big size difference here. The standard for a male Standard Aussie states a minimum of 20" at withers. The standard for a mini male, which I found on the Miniature Australia Shepherd Club of America, is as small as 14" at withers. That's beagle sized! To say nothing of things I read about Minis going as small as 10", or under 12 lbs in weight.

My question is, how do you breed Mini Aussies reputably if your breeding stock are all 20" at the minimum? How do you even go from 20" at withers to 14" at withers without including some toy breed?


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

You could do it, in theory, just with selective breeding. The klee kai folks did it, IIRC, although I think there was one infusion of schipperke blood -they started with a 17" AH bitch and bred downwards from there. That said, I don't think it'd happen that fast, or that consistantly, with JUST selective breeding. While the smaller aussies have always been around, smaller was 16-17" or so, and they weren't terribly common.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The people I know with mini aussies (which some call North American Shepherds) that actually are into showing the breed don't have terribly small dogs. They're just a few inches under the size of the traditional Aussie.

Now, the one breeder I linked had dogs the size of my papillons. There is no way you can get an aussie down to that size that fast without some seriously dubious breeding practices. I don't see how you can get a dog that looks more like a papillon or a chi just by breeding aussies.


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## Lili (Feb 3, 2008)

animalcraker said:


> Here's a direct quote from the Aussie AKC standard
> 
> That means there is no height requirement for the breed, but merely a prefered height.


Oh I see, thanks for the info!  That may explain why my dog's breeder had kept her for showing/breeding purposes until almost 3 years of age... I initially doubted that she could have continued showing her past her puppy stage (she was 4 points shy of earning her Canadian title), as I thought she did not meet the breed's standards. I questionned why she was letting her go, but I understand it may not have anything to do with the fact that she was not "show-worthy". (My breeder may have had other bitches with better show-potential - I can appreciate that at some point a breeder has choices to make and can't keep all his/her dogs)...


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Pepper said:


> they probably just keep breeding smaller aussies to smaller aussies and make small aussies.
> 
> And call them mini to make a new fad and more money.



Even if that is how they got the really small dogs, they would have had to have been selecting very heavily for size. When you select so heavily for one thing, you tend to lose a lot of other things, like herding instinct, health, conformation to name a few. That is why it often takes good breeders years to decide what blood lines to breed to, they have many, many things to consider.


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## aprilpixie (Jan 24, 2009)

Mini Aussies are purebreds and are wonderful dogs! To get the Mini Aussie all they did was breed smaller Aussies together and tada, they had the mini Aussies! They are just like the standard size just smaller, the only difference is their size! One person I know has three Mini Aussies and they are extremely smart and athletic yet calm indoors! The breed is a good dog in general! I'm now getting a Mini Aussie on March 7th and she wasn't too cheap either. I have done a ton of research on the dog and breeders and have seen Mini Aussies priced anywhere from $300 to $1500. Mine happened to be $1000.

I'm getting my Mini Aussie from this breeder http://www.wyomingcowhorses.com/MiniAussies.html
They look exactly like the standard size to me, not a Papillion, Pomeranian, Chi or any other breed for that mater!


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## Lil Red Express (Jan 18, 2009)

I could not agree more !!!! There are so many " I've have heard" and so many " I have read" and so many " I have seen's " in this post it makes me sick they are giving you an opinion ! I have had a LOT of experience with Aussies and I chose a mini as a companion for myself . I babysit a lot of reg aussies and would NEVER trade my little guy for any of those . They are sturdy , agile , capable of anything any full sized aussie can do . The term 'mini' is often misleading as well , they are not that small . My dogs parents were working ranch dogs and if you seen their agility you would be speechless ! I would say unless you have HANDS ON experience ( like some of us ) with one you probably shouldn't discourage a potential owner because I can almost guarantee that it will be the biggest little bundle of joy you can find in a companion ! Like the poster above just said ,they wont drive you insane when inside the house . 

My 2 cents 




Chels_girl said:


> Oh my gosh, I am just a smidge appalled by some of this...I have a Minnie, and would never, ever trade her for a bigger Aussie. They're amazing dogs, just like an aussie but smaller. And the thing about them not being a real Aussie is well...Bull. My minnie acts more like an Aussie than my Dad's full sized Aussie.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> You could do it, in theory, just with selective breeding. The klee kai folks did it, IIRC, although I think there was one infusion of schipperke blood -they started with a 17" AH bitch and bred downwards from there.


Spurlin used Eskies too 

I've been seeing a LOT of "TOY aussies" around here. I see more toy than mini. How big are the minis? The ones I've seen that people say are toy aussies are chi or min-pin sized. Very small - adults.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

aprilpixie said:


> I'm getting my Mini Aussie from this breeder http://www.wyomingcowhorses.com/MiniAussies.html
> They look exactly like the standard size to me, not a Papillion, Pomeranian, Chi or any other breed for that mater!



Total backyard breeder.


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## RiverFlash (Aug 28, 2008)

As with ANY dog from a breeder, insist on seeing/receiving a 5 generation pedigree with a listing of ancestors color and size. The parents should be on site, or at least you should get photos AND be able to contact the stud owner at your discretion. Also it helps if the breeder is the member of a club that has SOME sort of standard or ethics code!! This way you know you are just getting a smaller version of an Aussie and NOT a dog of mixed breed ancestory that may have some undesirable, non Aussie qualities, or WORSE, someone that is breeding Merles to Merles, or doing questionable 'in line' breeding without adherence to some health standard. AND I would get a health guarantee. Many breeders breed JRTs that are 'outside' of the regulated size ... some are quality and some are crap. The ones that are quality have pedigrees, participate with a club (UKC, for example) and participate in competitions with their dogs. AND some just say, "Wow, I can make some money!" Be careful. Mini Aussie breeders can be as crooked as the next breeder of something other than a regulated breed. Just be careful and insist on getting what you PAY for.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I've posted in this thread before, but I actually have a mini aussie now...she came from the pound, I went there to pick up what I was told was a 3 month old aussie puppy, but after taking her to the vet, turns out she was a 6 month old mini...she's a great dog, no complaints. I'd get another, but I'd check out the breeder very very well...the breeder mine came from was obviously crap, she dumped a litter _and_ bred two merles...one of my girls littermates is a double merle.



jesirose said:


> Spurlin used Eskies too
> 
> I've been seeing a LOT of "TOY aussies" around here. I see more toy than mini. How big are the minis? The ones I've seen that people say are toy aussies are chi or min-pin sized. Very small - adults.


My mini is 20 lbs at 8 months.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

Lil Red Express said:


> Like the poster above just said ,they wont drive you insane when inside the house .
> 
> My 2 cents


My standard Aussies have *NEVER* driven me insane in the house. 

I know one mini Aussie very well. She is a friend of mine's Aunt's dog and I dog/house sit a lot. That dog is a great dog. But I don't see her being a mini Aussie. She is very close to my standard Aussie's size (not quite sure of her measurements). I think Blue, (the mini), is a just a smaller Aussie sold waaay too high as a "Mini-Aussie". 

The only other mini Aussie I have met looked almost identical to a tri colored papillon, with ears that are slightly different. 

I never understood the reasoning behind having a miniature Aussie. I won't put someone down for choosing them, but I really don't understand the reason of having the same exact breed, but smaller.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

Each dog is individual in temperament of course, as is each dog owner. 
We have 1 mini Aussie that comes in regularly for grooming, tho he's not quite a year old yet. My daughter, who's the groomer, & myself always look forward to seeing him . He's beautiful, looks very much like a small version my own Aussie & is a good enough dog, tho a bit skittish, & I don't think his person is the best dog owner, provides for him well enough but just doesn't seem real educated in dog ownership.


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## aprilpixie (Jan 24, 2009)

The only dog I have had before was a Pomeranian weighing only four pounds (five on his good days). When he died I made the decision of getting another dog because I missed having a dog. I decided I wanted an Aussie but I'm so use to smaller dogs that a standard sized seemed too big for my liking. So, I got a Mini Aussie! Just the same as a standard size just smaller! (I didn't want a toy however because they don't look like an Aussie to me.)


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