# Weaning off the prong



## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

I did a search on prong collar threads and didn't find an answer to this. With the help/advice of a trainer I got a prong collar for my boy to help with pulling during walks. I'm completely aware that this is a crutch for me but it's nice to be able to take my 9 month old dog out for walks. The walks are good for me and they're good for him so I don't regret getting the training collar. Also, he is PERFECT while he has the collar on. However, I'd prefer to be able to wean him off of the prong collar and onto a flat collar for, at least, our every day walks and I'm not quite sure how to do that.

Does anybody have any advice for this?

Another reason I want to get him off of the prong is that I want to get him CGC tested and I know a prong can't be used for that. I've heard that a chain collar is ok for that tests (though I'm not sure I believe this) but I refuse to use one of those.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

What you can do is start putting both collars on him. When he's at the point where he rarely needs the prong for corrections, then start using the buckle collar but keep the prong on. You could also put two leashes on - one on each collar. But use the buckle collar and see how he does. If you have two leashes on, then if he doesn't respect the buckle you can just use the other leash to pop him and then go back to the buckle again, if that makes sense at all. Eventually not needing the prong on at all. You can also make a cloth cover for the prong with something like a jean material so it's not as extreme, or go to a martingale and then the buckle.

Lana


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

Bordermom said:


> What you can do is start putting both collars on him. When he's at the point where he rarely needs the prong for corrections, then start using the buckle collar but keep the prong on. You could also put two leashes on - one on each collar. But use the buckle collar and see how he does. If you have two leashes on, then if he doesn't respect the buckle you can just use the other leash to pop him and then go back to the buckle again, if that makes sense at all. Eventually not needing the prong on at all. You can also make a cloth cover for the prong with something like a jean material so it's not as extreme, or go to a martingale and then the buckle.
> 
> Lana


Thanks for the response. I already made a cloth collar not to hide the prong as much as having the extra space was the perfect opportunity to be crafty (doesn't happen often for me) so I jumped at it. How the collar looks on him doesn't bother me. I get sneers from other dog walkers sometimes but while that's happening my dog is walking nicely on a loose leash while theirs is pulling so I don't mind, lol 

The two leash idea is an awesome one! I don't know how I didn't think of that but I think that's what I'll try first. I'm not a dog but, if I was, I think that plan would work on me (however, my dog is smarter than me, lol). As much as I'd love any excuse to get him a new collar (and a martingale at that) I don't want to be spending the extra money right now.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

I am in the same boat... 

Tyler has been on a prong since he was 1 year old. We have done heeling classes, lots of LLW practice, etc etc but still have issues from time to time. So he wears the prong and gets to go on several mile walks a day instead of not going anywhere because he is dragging me around. 

We did do a CGC class where I did not use the prong. He actually did very well (!) and we passed no problem. However, I am having a hard time transferring that behavior from the training facility to the sidewalk. No one in my CGC was allowed to use anything but a regular buckle or martingale. I am not sure if this is standard or not though?

I am going to try two leashes too! I will try it tomorrow and see how it goes. Thanks for the advice (and posting this thread patchwork)


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

Have you tried teaching him how to walk on a loose leash using primarily positive reinforcement techniques, working in several short daily sessions, while you use the prong collar to manage the behavior? My personal management-collar of choice for pulling is the gentle leader or head halter, and while I'm using that to walk the dog for exercise, I do 1-3 short, 5-minute silky-leash or Susan-Ailsby-esque loose leashing walking sessions a day with the dog. 

See these links for more information: http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/leash-walking/ and http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page26/styled-2/ (about half-way down the page under "Leash". Susan Ailsby writes this in such a way that the dog progresses in "levels" as he demonstrates mastery of what is being asked of him, so loose-leash walking continues on subsequent pages). 

Bordermom, just curious: Have you personally had success with the method you describe or have you known someone who has? It doesn't seem very likely to work, to me, especially with a smart dog. The dog has very likely already associated the pain caused by pulling with the presence of the prong collar, and if that predictor is removed and the desire to pull resurfaces as the dog learns that the punisher is now absent, it seems as though the dog would be very likely to experiment with pulling again and learn that he doesn't need to walk in a loose leash if the prong isn't there. I see this creating a dog who needs to be "reminded" frequently with the prong about loose-leash walking after wearing a flat collar for a few walking sessions, as he tests the limits and learns (maybe when he accidentally pulls as a reaction to a cat that runs across the street) that pain doesn't apply anymore and there is now nothing to successfully compete with the self-reinforcing pulling behavior.


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## oldhounddog (May 31, 2010)

Patch ,
This should be easy , as in most cases the prong collar is for short term use with transition to the collar of choice. From the sound of your post you have been using the prong for a while. I have a couple of questions b/c I can't see your setup. Is the prong collar high on the dog's neck and snug enough to stay in position?
Did you remove many links to get a good fit? I ask this b/c sometimes folks will take a prong collar that is too large for the dog and remove so many links that the collar does not work correctly. Are you using the prong collar setup with the live ring? After collar is on your dog is the live ring centered at a 12 o'clock position on top of neck? Is the action of the live ring smooth and not twisted?

Is the dog at the bottom of your post the dog the prong collar is being used on?
Could you post a pic with the collar on your dog with no cover?

OK , that is enough questions for now. First , I am not a trainer, however, over the course of many years I have trained my rescue dogs and my hunting dogs so I can only tell you what has worked for me. The prong collar has many training uses, however , this post is about pulling.............

Basic use:
When I use a prong collar to stop pulling, it is installed hi on the neck and the live ring is centered in the middle between ears and snug enough to hold position.

I install a second collar backup lower on the neck. Early on the second collar was a choke with fine links, however, I have now gone to a Martingale for the backup collar.
I use a flat six foot nylon leash attached to the live ring with a jumper connection from the live ring to the backup collar. Jumper should be just long enough so as not to interfere with the action of the prong collar. ( I made my jumper from para cord with a small snap hook on both ends.with length as per need.)

For pulling the prong collar is for the most part self correcting if installed properly, and , removed after training session is over. ( 15 to 30 min )

I gather from your post that you have been using the prong collar for longer that this, and this is where the human training comes in. You must only train to stop pulling before moving forward with other training, so , as you can see the prong collar for this purpose is short term use. When you have the pulling stopped , at that time put the main leash to the back up collar and the jumper to the prong collar so now using the non-prong for primary collar and the prong for backup.....

Train for a walk without any pulling. If the dog pulls just stop and change directions, it will not take long for the dog to get it. Keep sessions short and reward/treat dog for correct behavior. Make sure when you setup for this training, that you are rested and treat the dog with respect and use consistent/firm and loving communication with your dog. Always take time and set your dog up to succeed. Always end your training session on a happy note and spend some non training quality time bonding with your dog. This has always worked for me....................................


Please give this a try and post back how thing are going.


Good Luck , oldhound


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

oldhounddog said:


> (...) and treat the dog with respect (...) and loving communication with your dog.


Does a prong collar have these qualities ? ... Really ?

hmmm


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## oldhounddog (May 31, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Does a prong collar have these qualities ? ... Really ?
> 
> hmmm


No need to be confused......................The prong collar has no qualities, this is supplied by a qualified trainer that knows what s/he is doing..........


Best , oldhound


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Cricketloops, yes, have used that trick on several dogs who needed to transfer off the prong. It works quite well, providing the dog is not relying on the feeling of the prong to not pull! While I'd love to never have to use a prong, depending on the situation sometimes it's the best option - if the owner wants results now or they're not going to keep the dog, or there's a huge risk of the owner getting injured because they have a big, strong dog who does not respect or care if they have food to reward them for not pulling. With my youngest who is very much a wild and crazy girl, I also taught her some impulse control so she has been conditioned not to keep pulling and when she hits the end of the leash she will slam into reverse (not so good when that results in a kid going flying because she is backing up at warp speed, but better than no arm sockets left!).

Lana


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

oldhounddog said:


> Patch ,
> This should be easy , as in most cases the prong collar is for short term use with transition to the collar of choice. From the sound of your post you have been using the prong for a while. I have a couple of questions b/c I can't see your setup. Is the prong collar high on the dog's neck and snug enough to stay in position?
> Did you remove many links to get a good fit? I ask this b/c sometimes folks will take a prong collar that is too large for the dog and remove so many links that the collar does not work correctly. Are you using the prong collar setup with the live ring? After collar is on your dog is the live ring centered at a 12 o'clock position on top of neck? Is the action of the live ring smooth and not twisted?
> 
> ...


The dog in my signature is the one that I"m talking about. However he's nine months old now (instead of the 4 months he is in the photo). He's actually only been on the collar for a few weeks (three maybe?) and I just don't want it to be a long-lasting tool. He is wearing it correctly. I've printed this guide and check it every time I put the collar on. It sits high up on his neck, right behind his ears, the ring is on the right side of of his neck because he walks on his left. I was shown to have it sit there, is that not correct? Also, I've removed enough links that it's snug. If I put one more on it'd be too loose and if I took one more off it wouldn't fit. However, it does slowly slide down his neck as we walk so I have to readjust it every 10-15 minutes. I don't know if maybe I should get a different collar with smaller links so that when I take one off or add one the adjustment isn't as big? The collar that I use is the one I was given. I'll see what I can about getting a picture. 

He wears a flat collar with tags at all time but I don't have anything to connect the leash to both collars. I need to get one (or make one) but I can never remember the name that people usually give them to look them up. 


*@Petpeeve* - I have the same opinion here as oldhounddog, I don't really think that using a prong collar shows respect OR disrespect for the dog (just like using spurs has nothing to do with how you feel about your horse). It's simply a tool used for training.


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## upfromtheashes (Mar 10, 2008)

Have you been training the dog to heel? Once upon a time I had to use a prong collar on my golden to keep him from pulling, now I don't even use a leash.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

Yes, I want him to heel. I tried the tree method and the changing directions method and neither worked. I was fairly patient about it, we spent weeks on it and it never improved. The prong is nice because he walks nicely on a loose leash (usually by my side) which means that I can now actually take him for walks. I just want him to do this on a flat collar, haha (who doesn't?)


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## upfromtheashes (Mar 10, 2008)

I can't imagine the tree method ever teaching a dog to heel. All the tree method does is send a message to the dog that "you are doing something that I don't want you to do". Whether that's pulling, jumping, whatever. I see it as basically a non-physical, non-verbal correction. 

However, understand that heeling is not the same thing as "not pulling". Heeling is the dog walking alongside you with his head next to your left knee. If you think of it in those terms, how can being a tree possibly teach the dog that you want it to walk alongside you with his head at your knee?

Read this:
http://www.perfectdogtraining.com/articles/dog-training/teaching-your-dog-to-heel

Now, my trainer teaches heel a little bit differently from this article, in the sense that we initially use treats to show the dog where the "heel" position is. For example I'll say "heel" and then start walking along, with a treat outside of my left knee. When the dog comes and gets it, I say "good heel!" and keep walking along, giving another treat outside of my left knee every so often so they can begin to understand what it is I want them to do when I say this new "heel" word to them. 

After a little bit of this, once they know what it is I want them to do, then I can begin to phase out the treats and go with more verbal praise for successful heeling, and start giving corrections (either physical in the form of a tug on the leash, or verbal like "aah aah!") when they aren't in the heel position. 

I'm working on heeling right now with my 15 week old malamute puppy. It's coming along pretty well, but I still have to give out a lot of corrections. In contrast, I typically don't bother with a leash on my golden. I'll tell him "heel" and he walks next to me. If he eventually starts to drift away a bit, I'll say "aah aah!" and he comes right back alongside of me again. It's like a verbal leash. Very handy.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

haha I can see where I didn't word that as well as I meant to. I know that being a tree and changing direction doesn't teach heel, it's for paying attention and not pulling me around. My original goal was just getting him not to pull and when the idea of the prong came about we started on heeling. On the collar he stays by my side and keeps his eyes on me a good 90% of the time.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I have mentioned before 95% of dogs I train are prong collar and Marti, lead clipped to both while training, if you look at the collars they have the exact same closure action so phasing prong out down the road is a no-brainer.


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## oldhounddog (May 31, 2010)

PatchworkRobot said:


> The dog in my signature is the one that I"m talking about.
> 
> 
> Hey Patch ,
> ...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

PatchworkRobot said:


> The dog in my signature is the one that I"m talking about. However he's nine months old now (instead of the 4 months he is in the photo). He's actually only been on the collar for a few weeks (three maybe?) and I just don't want it to be a long-lasting tool. He is wearing it correctly. I've printed this guide and check it every time I put the collar on. It sits high up on his neck, right behind his ears, the ring is on the right side of of his neck because he walks on his left. I was shown to have it sit there, is that not correct? Also, I've removed enough links that it's snug. If I put one more on it'd be too loose and if I took one more off it wouldn't fit. However, it does slowly slide down his neck as we walk so I have to readjust it every 10-15 minutes. I don't know if maybe I should get a different collar with smaller links so that when I take one off or add one the adjustment isn't as big? The collar that I use is the one I was given. I'll see what I can about getting a picture.
> 
> He wears a flat collar with tags at all time but I don't have anything to connect the leash to both collars. I need to get one (or make one) but I can never remember the name that people usually give them to look them up.
> 
> ...


Well I went to the Leerburg guide you mentioned and the picture of lead connection almost looks like it's connected to both swivel and dead ring. Anyway I prefer a looser fit because you spend more time adjusting collar than working dog. Good thing I started my training before Leerburg was in business.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Well I went to the Leerburg guide you mentioned and the picture of lead connection almost looks like it's connected to both swivel and dead ring. Anyway I prefer a looser fit because you spend more time adjusting collar than working dog. Good thing I started my training before Leerburg was in business.


It shows both options with the theory that if the leash is connected to both rings the correction "pop" is a little more subtle. I've heard this from a few people. I've tried it both ways myself and I tend to switch off. Generally I use just the live ring at first since he is suuuper excited to be out walking and about 5 minutes in I can connect it to the dead ring also.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

PatchworkRobot said:


> It shows both options with the theory that if the leash is connected to both rings the correction "pop" is a little more subtle. I've heard this from a few people. I've tried it both ways myself and I tend to switch off. Generally I use just the live ring at first since he is suuuper excited to be out walking and about 5 minutes in I can connect it to the dead ring also.


No argument, I just thought a light (subtle) correction can be done using live ring only but your hands are tied if you should need a correction that lacks subtlety. I guess that's why I snap the lead to both collars Marti/Prong (one lead/one snap/2 collars) done this way when correcting dog half of correction is taken up with Marti collar. Then the phasing can be started by just unsnapping prong collar while leaving it on neck and re-snapping if needed, eventually prong can be removed, this does not mean this way is proper, it's just the way I do it. Occasionally I will get a dog that needs prong but panics when any kind of correction is given, but the 2 collar program helps some of them get through it. I use to just reverse collar (still do if needed) but this got quicker results I wanted/needed. There are some dogs that need just prong collar only at 1st and then the reverse program is done and Marti is added when needed.

Last but not least is occasionally a link will open/pop out on prong collar and you all of a sudden have no dog on the end of your lead.


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