# On Pitbulls



## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Having read somewhere on this forum that good pitbull breeders are hard to find, out of sheer curiousity I figured I'd google search pitbull breeders. I'm presuming the bigshot, badguy image is what is played on whenever advertising a pitbull breeder but the images on this website seem to be typical. Every one of those dogs, even the pups, look to be uber muscular giants.

I'm not thinking of adding a pit to my life just yet, I've already got my hands full with my Belgian Malinois and I'm not sure a Pit with the inherent dog aggression that is resident in them would get along well with my present dog. 

Any idea why most pitbull breeders seem to have steroid enhanced breeding stock?


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Because they sell, is my best guess.

There is a guy at my local DP, he has a weird looking dog..it looks like the Basset/Pit mix in someone's sig on this forum, but brindle. All the guys were oohing and ahhing about it, and the owner proceeded to tell how he got it from some lady for 900 dollars, and is going to breed it with his buddy's pit fem and sell the pups for 1500.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

I think the best thing to do is to go to some UKC shows and talk to the APBT owners there. These are the people who will be breeding to the breed standard.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Gawd those dogs are FAT.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Although some of them are fat, the reason why some of them are so loaded in front is because they are "exercised" on a spring pole, not because of steroid use. I can recommend some decent pit breeders in Texas and Mississippi, if you are in that general area.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> Having read somewhere on this forum that good pitbull breeders are hard to find, out of sheer curiousity I figured I'd google search pitbull breeders. I'm presuming the bigshot, badguy image is what is played on whenever advertising a pitbull breeder but the images on this website seem to be typical. Every one of those dogs, even the pups, look to be uber muscular giants.
> 
> I'm not thinking of adding a pit to my life just yet, I've already got my hands full with my Belgian Malinois and I'm not sure a Pit with the inherent dog aggression that is resident in them would get along well with my present dog.
> 
> Any idea why most pitbull breeders seem to have steroid enhanced breeding stock?


Those dogs look to not be muscular to me at all. Big yes in size and bones, some a little overweight.

It is good to consider the possibility of DA, many people do not and it doesn't always end well.

As to answer your question like you said (or it has been said) good breeders are hard to find. American Bullies are what a lot of the "new generation" wants and they can sell very well/high prices. So many are getting into breeding them only for money. It is a huge cycle. They buy, they want to make the same kind of money, so they breed and it goes onto the next person. So American Bully breeders are many. As far as online certainly there are many who have a website so they are what pops up most often when you google. Even 5yrs ago I don't think this was the case (yes there was AmBullies back then but not so many breeders) if I remember right. 

As for the bully dogs these are actually not too bad at all. Some are better then others structure wise, but I have seen some pretty bad structures and some dogs with very extreme faults that were considered "awesome". These are not bad at all if an American Bully is what one desires. (Though I can't comment on the breeder or their practices I'm just saying the dogs themselves). Some are nice for a bigger dog. Do you know exactly what you would possibly be looking for in a Pit Bull? Breed/type, temperament, size, ect?



skelaki said:


> I think the best thing to do is to go to some UKC shows and talk to the APBT owners there. These are the people who will be breeding to the breed standard.


Unfortunately Bully dogs are even placing there. Not always and there will certainly be good breeders there and dogs to true standard but many a bully type are now in UKC shows and some winning. The heavier staff dogs not so "bullied out" have been for sometime. You can see dogs from traditional style to way over done placing. I've noticed the same with the AKC AmStaff. Judges should perhaps be stricture to the standard. Some dogs on this site wouldn't have a problem getting their UKC CH. 



LoupGarouTFTs said:


> Although some of them are fat, the reason why some of them are so loaded in front is because they are "exercised" on a spring pole, not because of steroid use. I can recommend some decent pit breeders in Texas and Mississippi, if you are in that general area.


What do you mean by loaded in the front? I've never heard of a springpole making a dog "loaded in the front" but I'm not exactly sure what the term means. I certainly don't see anything out of the ordinary with these particular dogs as far as front end on Bullies, but want to make sure I know what is meant by it?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Holy crap those dogs were !....they are not even good looking bullys  ...I don't know how any one in there right mind could even think about calling them APBTs

I know when/if I ever decide to get a APBT puppy...I will start looking around at a few local obedience clubs and weight pull clubs in my area (for APBT)...and I know some of those people will be able to point me in the right direction....

any way that is where I would start


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Because most "Pit" breeders are actually breeding bullies. Stay away from breeders breeding blue pits too. A breeder shouldn't breed for color and I'm on a PB forum and apparentlu Pits shouldn't even come in blue. It's an "unhealthy" color but that may be bcuz they're so popular and all the inbreeding goin on wit that color. 
Another thing...bloodlines like Razors Edge is horrible! They're mutts. They're mixed with Mastiffs to get a bigger size. So stay away from that bloodline if you ever look into getting a Pit. Another bloodline to stay away from would be the Gotti line. There's a ton more. Go to shows and talk to breeders. It'll be difficult to find a good breeder online but in person at a show it won't be as difficult to find a reputable breeder that's actually breeding PB and not Bullies(those ugly hippo/pit looking things.)


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## BaileyBudd (Sep 14, 2008)

Personally I think its a image thing. What is the need to adjust the breed so much to create a sub breed that looks like a pop can. The pit bulls (and some crosses that I know and love) don't look anything like that. They are slightly taller and not at all close to as bulky. I had a guy come into my work, with a pit bull. ( I work at a pet supply store BTW) The spike collar around his nech was so huge it just looked like a clown. He needed a muzzle for his dog, who was dog aggressive, so he could take his dog to the dog park, so he could "play" with other dogs with out hurting them. In the city, where he also lives where pit bulls are banned. Then he goes to tell us he's going to breed him, cause he's a "fine lookin dog".
I'm not saying all pitbull owners/"breeders" are like that. Majority of the ones I met are amazing. But people who want a dog like that for a tough image, its just silly. And I think that's why people breed them like that. The more massive, the "tougher". I dunno, thats my personal opinion.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Because most "Pit" breeders are actually breeding bullies. Stay away from breeders breeding blue pits too. A breeder shouldn't breed for color and I'm on a PB forum and apparentlu Pits shouldn't even come in blue. It's an "unhealthy" color but that may be bcuz they're so popular and all the inbreeding goin on wit that color.
> Another thing...bloodlines like Razors Edge is horrible! They're mutts. They're mixed with Mastiffs to get a bigger size. So stay away from that bloodline if you ever look into getting a Pit. Another bloodline to stay away from would be the Gotti line. There's a ton more. Go to shows and talk to breeders. It'll be difficult to find a good breeder online but in person at a show it won't be as difficult to find a reputable breeder that's actually breeding PB and not Bullies(those ugly hippo/pit looking things.)


There are reputable breeders with blue dogs, just as there are healthy blue colored dogs. Blue color doesn't mean a dog is unhealthy. Not all re dogs are mutts, there are still old school breeders out there. Though they are more ast them apbt.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

www.apbtconformation.com

this is a good place to start if you want to understand the different standards..

I prefer ADBA dogs. 

Online is not a good place to look for a pit. your best bet is to go to an ADBA show or pull and just start talking to people. 

Look for breeders with dogs that are shown in more than just confo preferably. Also look for those who health test. 


those dogs are built weird on that sitee and some of them are fat. 

as far as DA is concerned...socialize extensively as a pup and simply make a point never to leave your pit unsupervised with other dogs. I have a DA pit who has learned to play and socialize...but I know never to leave her alone with another dog because if something DID happen..I wouldn't be able to stop it. Also...don't take a pit to a dog park. its better to find a smaller more controllable group of dogs for your pit to socialize with.

now..

have you checked whether you can even have a pit?

check your local laws, check your homeowner's insurance policy if you own and check with your landlord if you rent. those things can be a big stumbling block in pit ownership and are often integral reasons why people end up giving up their pits.

Are you willing to go the extra mile with this dog?

the fire this breed is currently under nessecitates that pit owners EXEMPLIFY responsible ownership. meaning doing everything you can to show the world these dogs are not horrible monsters.


Do you take abuse well?

people will cross the street when they see your dog, they sometimes hurl insults, call animal control on you for silly reasons(he owns a PIT BULL!!  ) and once I had a gun pulled on my dog...and we were doing nothing but calmly walking down the street. People will look at you with a mix of fear and revulsion. 

so you kinda have to have thick skin and not be easily perturbed..

just a few things for you to consider...


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## chrisn6104 (Jun 8, 2009)

You can always try a shelter. I picked up a pit little over a month ago to add to my pack. He has mixed very well with my family (myself, GF, and 2 dogs). I really couldn't have asked for a better dog to come out of a shelter. He is taking to training very fast. 
The hardest things to work with so far are DA. He shows no DA towards my dogs but does with some outside dogs. However once I show him "this dog is ok" he backs off. Example is I took him to my parents about a week ago. They have a golden and he got a little aggressive. I took him back outside walked around a bit and tried again. This time the golden decided to show dominance and my pit stayed calm and ignored him the rest of the day. 

Second problem is he was obviously hit. The other night I had a paper towel center. I will use it and play with my other two dogs sometimes by hitting them. They will grab it and we tear it apart then throw it away. I forgot about him being hit and did this with him. He cowered and thought he was in for a beating. I felt bad after that.
I've had him for just over a month and can only see him getting much better in the years to come.

Any shelter is overloaded with Pits. The one I went to had I would say 60% pits. Some looked good others did not.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Pardon the question but I'm not familiar with the term American Bullies and how they differ from APBTs and I've heard of Blue Pits too, but am uncertain of what they are.

Anyhoo if I do ever look into getting a Pit seriously, I'll get one from a shelter.

Having known a few pit owners where I live in Central Florida, I know what owning such a dog entails. And because I already have one dog, I'm not sure if a pit would be a good addition to the pack. 

I've got a few years before I even seriously will consider adding a pit to my pack. I've already got my malinois, who's the family darling just about. He's got no dog aggression issues, because we've socialized him with everything from a dachshund to our neighbor's Bullmastiff.

Aesthetically I like uncropped ears and undocked tails in any dog, it just makes them look more natural. 

I've been told that Pits should be exclusively the only dog in the household, is this the case?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

American Bullies are kinda of like English Bulldogs with longer muzzles for the most part...uber wide chests, massive heads, short legs etc.


as for owning only a pit..

you can have many dogs of widely varying breeds in the same house with a pit...it just depends on the individual pit bull..

just as a side note though...I almost took in a Malinios..my DA pit and her played rather well together actually. the only reason I didn't take the Mal is because she snapped at my son. 

Im kind of the converse of you lol...I have a pit...and am contemplating the possibility of a Mal. 

I will say this..I tend to recommend to people that if you want multiple dogs and one of them a pit...it's probably safer to go with all medium/large breeds. Pits tend to be really rambunctious and could easily hurt a small dog not even meaning to. but again...depends on the individual dog.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> you can have many dogs of widely varying breeds in the same house with a pit...it just depends on the individual pit bull..


How does one determine DA in a puppy or especially a shelter dog, especially if the dog may have been a fighter (I figure a number of shelter dogs may have been rescued or abandoned fighters)? 

And besides I'd have to clear getting a Pit with my folks and extended family. As I've said before, in Filipino households dogs become communal. Ninja (my Mal) has my whole household to look after him when I'm gone on deployment (like right now). 

Off topic: as far as Malinois go, the one that snapped at your son probably wasn't socialized properly. What'd your son do that caused her to snap?

Back on topic: As stated it'll be a while before I think of adding a pit to my family, and if that it'll be a shelter pit of good temperment.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> Pardon the question but I'm not familiar with the term American Bullies and how they differ from APBTs and I've heard of Blue Pits too, but am uncertain of what they are.


On another forum I am one of the members listed the difference between United Kennel Club APBT, American Dog Breeder Assocation APBT and the American Kennel Club's American Staffordshire Terrier(almost the same breed as the APBT but AKC didn't want the APBT neg views in it's club so they changed their name)









And this is an American Bully:









They are suppose to be bred to lack a prey drive so they are "dog and human safe" Also known as Hippo dogs. They are low to the ground. They aren't recognized by any national kennel club yet but the breeders are working toward it. They are pretty much English Bulldogs mixed with Pit Bulls and the focus on them is to breed bigger heads and chest. I personally do not like them.

As for a Blue Pit Bull,http://pitbullregistry.com/blue pitbull pictures.htm has MANY photos of blue pit bulls.





> I've been told that Pits should be exclusively the only dog in the household, is this the case?


 Nah. They actually do get along with other dogs, you just have to be able to step in and not let things get out of control. There is a chance of DA in these dogs so you may get one that never will be able to be around other dogs. That's why if you are thinking about a Pit Bull, an older one that is already tested around dogs is a good idea when adding to a pack. You also must keep in the back of your mind "crate and rotate" which means if you do have a DA dog, crating it when the others dogs are around, and allowing it out only when the other dogs are put away. Most DA dogs are selective DA. Some dogs the love, others they hate. Even Zim's Bolo who is DA gets along with some dogs. You just have to be able to know when to step in and cool down things before they get out of hand.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

I personally find the ADBA dogs too tall and lean for my tastes, nearly approaching American Bulldogs in appearance. However, I greatly prefer them over the "American Bully" monstrosity. It's interesting that someone mentioned that "American Bullies" are winning in the UKC ring--well, if they still are, they will eventually stop. There is still no DQ for Bully type dogs in the UKC standard--however--merle has now been DQed (which will *knock wood* reduce the Catahoula crosses) and the characteristics of the "American Bully" have been added or emphasized in virtually every section of the standard as being "very serious faults."

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrierRevisedNovember12008


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> It's interesting that someone mentioned that "American Bullies" are winning in the UKC ring--well, if they still are, they will eventually stop. There is still no DQ for Bully type dogs in the UKC standard--however--merle has now been DQed (which will *knock wood* reduce the Catahoula crosses) and the characteristics of the "American Bully" have been added or emphasized in virtually every section of the standard as being "very serious faults."



See while the UKC is trying to get away from the Am Bully look, it all depends on the judges, what they know as the standard, and if they actually KNOW the standard.

At the UKC Premier, I was helping to show a rarer breed of dog, Estrela Mountain Dog. When we got into the "Guardian Ring" It was quite interesting to see who always won. It was ALWAYS the more common breeds (I think the 2 days I saw, the Boxer, Doberman, English Bull dog, all placed one of the 2 days, the Doberman both days). Why? Because the judges had NO CLUE what was standard on the rarer breeds so they only considered the breeds they knew. Now had these Judges known the rarer breeds standards, They would have noticed that these breeds are almost perfect to what their standards say they should be.

It's not only in the APBT ring that judges are not following the standards, but what THEY like. As long as they like the look of the big heads, the bully like dogs are going to win.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> I personally find the ADBA dogs too tall and lean for my tastes, nearly approaching American Bulldogs in appearance. However, I greatly prefer them over the "American Bully" monstrosity. It's interesting that someone mentioned that "American Bullies" are winning in the UKC ring--well, if they still are, they will eventually stop. There is still no DQ for Bully type dogs in the UKC standard--however--merle has now been DQed (which will *knock wood* reduce the Catahoula crosses) and the characteristics of the "American Bully" have been added or emphasized in virtually every section of the standard as being "very serious faults."
> 
> http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrierRevisedNovember12008


I prefer ADBA simply because of the "hippo" type bulldog not being present amongst ADBA reg pits as far as I've seen. 

Most of the dogs I've found to be the best in build, temperment and ability are dual registered ADBA and UKC. ADBA prefers the dog to be conditioned differently which is where the "leanness" comes from..a good number of them put on a couple pounds to go compete in UKC. as far as tallness goes, as long as the dog as the correct height to length ratio, I don't really mind how tall it is. I actually prefer a taller dog if given the choice between those and the bullies...



LoneRider said:


> How does one determine DA in a puppy or especially a shelter dog, especially if the dog may have been a fighter (I figure a number of shelter dogs may have been rescued or abandoned fighters)?
> 
> And besides I'd have to clear getting a Pit with my folks and extended family. As I've said before, in Filipino households dogs become communal. Ninja (my Mal) has my whole household to look after him when I'm gone on deployment (like right now).
> 
> ...


You don't know if a dog is DA until it displays DA. So the old adage "prevention is 9/10ths of the cure" applies. Know when to step in and let the dogs have a chill minute and take precautions such as not letting the dog run off leash without a fence and not leaving the dog alone with other dogs. 



as for the Mal...we were walking and the boy was asleep in the stroller...he cried out in his sleep and she snapped. 

that to me is unacceptable in a dog.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Is this what _*loaded shoulders*_ means?


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

"Loaded" shoulders have an excess of muscle tissue. Although the dog might look healthy and "cool" in the eyes of many owners, the truth is that loaded shoulders interfere with the dog's ability to work and, in some cases, even to move. Dogs with loaded shoulders also tend to have hypermuscular necks and jaws. Solme people who favor the look hang their dogs from spring poles for lengthy periods. (I have no desire to discuss spring poles--go to YouTube and you will see many examples of their use and misuse.)


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## RiverFlash (Aug 28, 2008)

We had an unfortunate incident here in which 2 Pit Bulls recently attacked a jogger. He was able to shake them off long enough to climb a chain link fence and escape, but he has terrible legs wounds and is now infected with drug resistant Staph. Thankfully the man was large and athletic and not an elderly person or a child that wouldn't have easily escaped, but it is still sad. What is the SADDEST part is the dogs were 'supposedly' owned by a 10 and 12 year old in the family and the parents are blaming the kids for not training the dogs and making the kids' pay the fine. I am not sure that it is OK to expect young children to own and care for a dog that requires exceptional time, patience and careful training. Sadly, this is what ultimately gives Pit Bulls such a bad name - lack of aware owners that are dedicated to ensuring the breed is well trained and controlled. The dogs were euthanized, but I can't help but think if the parents had any foresight, they would've thought twice before allowing their kids to be totally responsible for such a powerful, independent dog and maybe even required their kids to take the dogs to obedience school before calling "No Foul". Seriously! I lived with a perfectly sweet pit bull that my roommate rescued, but he spent so much time and effort to train and work with him.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> Pardon the question but I'm not familiar with the term American Bullies and how they differ from APBTs and I've heard of Blue Pits too, but am uncertain of what they are.


American Bullies like what you posted. Bred to be shorter, wider, bigger bone and head. 

Blue ranges from light to dark blue or bluish gray. 



> I've been told that Pits should be exclusively the only dog in the household, is this the case?


LOL I think that answer is obvious. 

Unless me and pugmom are in some kind of trouble.



LoneRider said:


> How does one determine DA in a puppy or especially a shelter dog, especially if the dog may have been a fighter (I figure a number of shelter dogs may have been rescued or abandoned fighters)?


How they interact and react to other dogs. There are levels of DA and certain dogs they will be aggressive to so it wouldn't be a simple determination. But if they show DA you will most certainly know it. Also pay attention to warning signs before a fight/attack happens. Like the dog getting annoyed or if they are beginning to have less tolerance to another dog. I figure a number of the shelter Pits are dogs that the owners did not want so they took them to the shelter, dumped them off and some were neglected/abused and taken from the owner. There isn't a way to determine the number which are fighting dogs, especially since it probably various from area to area. With some having a higher number of fighters in and others having practically none. That is pretty irrelavent to me in a choice. I'm more concerned with individual dog temperament. If looking into the DA and wanting the dog to be around others I'd take a calm, confident dog social fighter over a hot non fighter. 



Darkmoon said:


> On another forum I am one of the members listed the difference between United Kennel Club APBT, American Dog Breeder Assocation APBT and the American Kennel Club's American Staffordshire Terrier(almost the same breed as the APBT but AKC didn't want the APBT neg views in it's club so they changed their name)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is simplified because both vary. There are UKC CH which look like the ADBA example, their are ADBA CH that are heavier and shorter then that example, they are not as rangy also. Then their are AKC CH which are heavier and bully and some finer yet even then that dog. 

I saw one dog which was totally bully UKC/AKC champion. Had with extreme "bulliness". I've seen several bullies with CH but this one was nuts. 

I think most important is to not worry so much about registry but more about pedigree and bloodlines. 

There is just way too much differences in dogs that are places within a registry. Especially in UKC. 



LoupGarouTFTs said:


> I personally find the ADBA dogs too tall and lean for my tastes, nearly approaching American Bulldogs in appearance. However, I greatly prefer them over the "American Bully" monstrosity. It's interesting that someone mentioned that "American Bullies" are winning in the UKC ring--well, if they still are, they will eventually stop. There is still no DQ for Bully type dogs in the UKC standard--however--merle has now been DQed (which will *knock wood* reduce the Catahoula crosses) and the characteristics of the "American Bully" have been added or emphasized in virtually every section of the standard as being "very serious faults."
> 
> http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/Breeds/AmericanPitBullTerrierRevisedNovember12008


Leaness is about conditioning only. Dogs can be conditioned to different weights under different judges and may also vary by registry as well. The weight of a dog can change how their appearance looks as well. I show in different registries, the standards are not too much different (if judges stick to them as best they can). 

There is a great varience in what the ADBA registered dogs look like. I don't find them to typically lean to an AmBulldog look but it is possible with some. Those wouldn't be the norm though. There is also some which carry a percentage of AmBulldog blood so they can possibly have more of an appearance that is similar. Some are of course taller/heavier too because of that AmBulldog blood.

I believe it is the other way around typically in my mind, some AmBulldogs have a more pit like appearance. Probably those that have a good percentage of APBT blood. But even the typicaly scott type AmBulldog wouldn't be easily confused with an APBT of ADBA registration in general. As most are a tad heavier in the proportion department with a little more mass and body. I've seen some performance bred AmBulldogs which could easily be confused with an APBT but normally thats not the case. 

I'd also have to say that if this is true of dogs registered ADBA then it is also true of UKC dogs and those registered and titled under other registries because of the fact that there are dual CHs and that the standards if followed correctly are very close. Same for being "too tall" my dogs are between around 13"ish - 20"ish. AKC standard is is 17-18 for females and 18-19 for males. Not too much difference. The UKC desirable weight is 35-60lbs for males and 30-50lbs for females. Dogs on the heavier end of the scale should of course be taller dogs. I also know the heights are some breeders UKC dogs which are fairly close to mine/akc dogs like 16-20" or so. By standard they should be balanced which is why too rangy or too bulky is supposed to be penalized, but it doesn't always work that way. Which is why you see the heavy dogs often placing and finishing, because their are so many within the UKC. Which goes back to the issue of it is the breeders and judges. If more people would show their correct dogs UKC then more correct dogs would be titled. Some judges don't know what they are even looking at either. 

On the same note most of my taller ones have been UKC PR or those of UKC/AKC heritage. I had one probably around 25", big and tall dog. 

This is UKC and ADBA GR CH









As for Bullies. Yes they still are and they will only stop if judges stop picking them. I keep up with the standards but I know they are only words on paper. The faults that Bullies tend to have (and that are seen in some non bully dogs) were never allowed or ok but somehow they still ended up getting titled before the revision. The revision will do little good as it is up to the owners to present correct dogs and the judges to pick correct dogs over bully dogs. In just a few months it will have already been a year and bullies are still doing fine. Though the merle issue certainly has been being resolved with mostly success in the registries. 



Darkmoon said:


> See while the UKC is trying to get away from the Am Bully look, it all depends on the judges, what they know as the standard, and if they actually KNOW the standard.
> 
> At the UKC Premier, I was helping to show a rarer breed of dog, Estrela Mountain Dog. When we got into the "Guardian Ring" It was quite interesting to see who always won. It was ALWAYS the more common breeds (I think the 2 days I saw, the Boxer, Doberman, English Bull dog, all placed one of the 2 days, the Doberman both days). Why? Because the judges had NO CLUE what was standard on the rarer breeds so they only considered the breeds they knew. Now had these Judges known the rarer breeds standards, They would have noticed that these breeds are almost perfect to what their standards say they should be.
> 
> It's not only in the APBT ring that judges are not following the standards, but what THEY like. As long as they like the look of the big heads, the bully like dogs are going to win.


Yup. Trying to judges trying to judge BBoels to Rottie standards years back did not go to well. Of course the dogs did not fit the "standard" (the one the judges had in mind). 





zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I prefer ADBA simply because of the "hippo" type bulldog not being present amongst ADBA reg pits as far as I've seen.
> 
> Most of the dogs I've found to be the best in build, temperment and ability are dual registered ADBA and UKC. ADBA prefers the dog to be conditioned differently which is where the "leanness" comes from..a good number of them put on a couple pounds to go compete in UKC. as far as tallness goes, as long as the dog as the correct height to length ratio, I don't really mind how tall it is. I actually prefer a taller dog if given the choice between those and the bullies...


They are also in ADBA. Don't like that but they are. Though they do not hardly ever place, if they are even shown at all. Most are not shown. 

Yeah balance is what I'm all about too. Though I prefer the smaller dogs.


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## Freekshow (Sep 10, 2008)

They should be banned. Oh, wait, they are!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoupGarouTFTs said:


> "Loaded" shoulders have an excess of muscle tissue. Although the dog might look healthy and "cool" in the eyes of many owners, the truth is that loaded shoulders interfere with the dog's ability to work and, in some cases, even to move. Dogs with loaded shoulders also tend to have hypermuscular necks and jaws. Solme people who favor the look hang their dogs from spring poles for lengthy periods. (I have no desire to discuss spring poles--go to YouTube and you will see many examples of their use and misuse.)


Of course I know what a springpole is, I wasn't trying to discuss them. My dogs use them all the time. Lengthy or not is subjective, but some of mine go for short time 15-30mins and others for more 1hr or more or on and off as they please for various lengths of time. Which why I'm trying to figure this out. I'm ignorant of that term so I asked on that. 

What I see in the photos on the website I can't tell the difference between those and a non springpole using bully. As either would be bred to be "overdone" and have a lot of mass and bone. That mass typically coming in the bulky, less functional muscle which also heats up quicker and takes longer to cool down. To build up bulky shoulders there are certainly quicker more effective ways. Setting the springpole lower does allow for work of the back legs up to the shoulder depending how low it is set but I haven't seen detrimental over musculation from that yet. Having a dog hang from it can work the neck/jaw well, but less for the rest of the body, for the dogs that twist and shake they do get more out of it. 

I ask on the black and tan female because she is not my dog but an avid springpole user









I can post mine which love it also to see what is thought of them. Though I myself also can't tell the difference between the ones which do and those which do not.

Maybe I'm not making sense though because I still don't know what I'm looking for or at. 

Thanks for attempting to help me though.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> They are also in ADBA. Don't like that but they are. Though they do not hardly ever place, if they are even shown at all. Most are not shown.


I know they're there...but from what i've seen there are waay less than in UKC or AKC.

I have a feeling its because ADBA is a little more exacting as far as the standard goes. its a little difficult to put up a dog that clearly does not meet the specified angles lol..




> Yeah balance is what I'm all about too. Though I prefer the smaller dogs.



you know what I like best Spicy..she's probably lounging at your feet right now and all her lovely progeny not far away. 



Freekshow said:


> They should be banned. Oh, wait, they are!


ummm...I am utterly baffled by this very strange statement.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Spicy, I'd swear the dog in your post has part Greater-Swiss Mountain Dog in her by its coloration, but I could be wrong.

The ADBA pits are immediately what comes readily to mind what I think of when I imagine a pitbull. I imagine AmStaffs as stockier built but not to the point of a Hippo Dog. And any rate, I'm liable to get a pit or pit mix that passes my temperment tests and if the shelter lets me introduce my own dog to prospective family members that is so much the better.

In any case it'll be a few years before that decision is made. 

I gather shelters can give good information on a dog's background if they know it? How easy is it to train a rescued shelter dog?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

apbt come in a wide range of coloration...the only no nos are merle and albinos.


as for rescue pits.


http://www.pbrc.net/ is a GREAT place to start. its like a pit bull specific petfinder. and also has some excellent info on care, legislation and other particulars of importance. 

look for a rescue that has tested their animals with kids, cats, other dogs etc. 

Since you have a male Malinois..the typical recommendation(and in some rescues they will require..) that you get a female because *generally* opposite sex pairings are thought to decrease the potential for squabbles and strife between the two dogs. 

most will not be fighters. most will be owner releases and strays as well as some abuse/neglect cases. there is generally way too much legal/liability hooha surrounding fighters for them to be put up for adoption. 

go for a slightly younger female, not a puppy but not a dog set in her ways either. perhaps between 1 to 1.5 yrs of age. 

Pits are very trainable....as long as you are not easily pissed off or a quitter. they can be stubborn. this has nothing to do with being a rescue..its just a tendancy of the breed. even DA as crap dogs can be trained to behave themselves around other dogs.

this is a breed that is EAGER to please. they are bouncy, exhuberant goofballs who can be serious if the situation calls for it. they tend to be slavishly affectionate attention w***es who adore humans. 

the eager to please part can sometimes translate into "might as well call it stubborn"

example.

I taught Bolo(my pit) to pull me on skates. she has a "speed up" cue. I have to be careful not to say it too excitedly or she will burst into a no holds barred all out dead run....and lord help me if there is a building directly in front of us...its gonna hurt when we crash into it. 

its like she gets the joy of running because I want her too in her head and it completely blinds her to all else.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> http://www.pbrc.net/ is a GREAT place to start. its like a pit bull specific petfinder. and also has some excellent info on care, legislation and other particulars of importance.


Thanks. I've actually visited the site a few times in the past and I've also gotten some great information from a couple other sources, namely the book American Pitbull Terriers from the Animal Planet dog series and the book Pitbull For Dummies back when I considered getting a pit before I got Ninja.

Right now Ninja's a very good dog with other dogs and his temperment is still that Malinois hair trigger responsiveness. I'm guessing _IF_ I add an APBT to the mix a self assured, calm and mellow animal will be a complement to my Mal?


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## Kaz Tarja (Apr 6, 2009)

i dont really no much about pitbulls, some of them are quite nice looking. But i was wondering if the cropped ears are a conformation point or just tradition?? .. and whats your opinion of it? i mean it does make them look pretty .. 'tough' .. but i dont really like it


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Kaz Tarja said:


> i dont really no much about pitbulls, some of them are quite nice looking. But i was wondering if the cropped ears are a conformation point or just tradition?? .. and whats your opinion of it? i mean it does make them look pretty .. 'tough' .. but i dont really like it


nope not a conformation thing or a historical thing. 

fighting dogs were NOT typically cropped for the pits..that's a myth. 

its done as a personal preference. for various reasons.


----------------------------


LoneRider:

the animal planet book is poor quality info from what I remember. Pits for dummies about the same.

there are quite a few myths surrounding the breed and many of them are perpetuated by some really terrible books and websites.


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## Shaggydog (Mar 4, 2009)

I was going to add that my brothers APBT weighs maybe 30 lbs at the most.The big,boned bully dogs sell because they are what some people percieve in a Pit Bull.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

> LOL I think that answer is obvious.
> 
> Unless me and pugmom are in some kind of trouble.



LOL...and I have a double whammy because I have multi dogs and they happen to be small dogs too 

A spring pole is just a tool...and like any other can be used appropriately or misused 

I would like to get a rescue pit in the future too....I would look for one that has been living with a foster family


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I know they're there...but from what i've seen there are waay less than in UKC or AKC.
> 
> I have a feeling its because ADBA is a little more exacting as far as the standard goes. its a little difficult to put up a dog that clearly does not meet the specified angles lol..


Oh yes way less. 

Really in UKC the standard never changed but the dogs that were bred and shown and judges put up did. That is the issue. As the revision was mentioned it won't help much. 

It is because the ADBA judges do not want to put up those types of dogs. The majority know what a bulldog is and how far from it bullies are. Not to mention some have been breeding them for decades or generations within their family. Hank, Kate and Amy are all some of my favorite judges not to mention people in general. There are some judges which are a bit off, but you can't expect all of them to be perfect. Some which are not as consistently nor to the best of the standard. 



> you know what I like best Spicy..she's probably lounging at your feet right now and all her lovely progeny not far away.


Wouldn't happen to look like this?









She is not really that tall. about 17" 
What is it that you really like about her if you don't mind me asking?



LoneRider said:


> Spicy, I'd swear the dog in your post has part Greater-Swiss Mountain Dog in her by its coloration, but I could be wrong.
> 
> The ADBA pits are immediately what comes readily to mind what I think of when I imagine a pitbull. I imagine AmStaffs as stockier built but not to the point of a Hippo Dog. And any rate, I'm liable to get a pit or pit mix that passes my temperment tests and if the shelter lets me introduce my own dog to prospective family members that is so much the better.
> 
> ...


Of course you are wrong. I find the statement odd. Since Pit Bulls can have white markings from a little to a lot, for a tan point to be a tri certainly isn't a reason to think they have Swissie. The reason I find it odd however is that there are many breeds which can have tan points/tri, some more common then swissies to pick them out it catches you off guard. A lot of people I meet don't really know what a Swissie is at all. 

I really like tris and sorrells dogs so its all good to me. I almost got relative to this dog, but it didn't work out, my partner wanted a female, not male (which is what they've had available). 

I personally like a lot of what I see with the UKC/ADBA champions. The structure and conformation on them seems ideal. I think structure can be very important to a dog. 









If you are not going to a breeder why not try a rescue. It could be much better with having your other dog. The foster home will be able to tell you about the dog and they will be living in a home environment. You could also certainly have your family meet the dog and your other dog too. 

As for your family you need to make sure they are certain what it means to handle a Pit Bull, how to break up a fight and the do/donts. Even when if they do know and are responsible people something could still happen more so with someone else rather then yourself, hence why my friends dog ended up over here when the family was watching the dogs and thigns didnt work out so well. Not everyone is up to responsibilities that might come with them and are not on their toes. 

Shelters can if they know, often times they don't know much or anything about a dogs real background. How easy depends on the dogs intelligence, biddability, somewhat on what they already know/are used to, if they've had any training and their level of socialization. 



pugmom said:


> LOL...and I have a double whammy because I have multi dogs and they happen to be small dogs too
> 
> A spring pole is just a tool...and like any other can be used appropriately or misused
> 
> I would like to get a rescue pit in the future too....I would look for one that has been living with a foster family


Yes you have those little guys with your big scarey Pit!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Yes it looks like that. 

She is beautiful. She is overall nice shape and proportion, from what I can tell in the photos she has more good points than bad. 

and then there are the hints in the photos at her personality...the expressions and postures that indicate a intelligent observant dog with a lot of spunk.

then there are her progeny. Nediva and Vipette and one other whose name I can't remember right now who stand out to me as being very nice dogs. 

and then there's the fact that she looks like what Bolo would if she didn't have such a yucky front which throws what would have been a nice rear off . 

I spend hours poring over stacked photos. I've been to a couple of shows now...just observing quietly and taking notes. I don't know all the judges names yet or which dog belongs to whom...but I've seen faaaaar more dogs who pale in comparison to her than surpass her. I bet she's a damn good dog. I can see it on her face, in the way she moves in the flirt photos.

oh and Spicy...

what I meant by the tallness comment was this..

if I were a judge and faced with the choice between an overly short dog and an overly tall dog...I would choose the tall dog...because the tall dog at least would have reach in its stride as opposed to the short dog who must exert more energy to maintain a good pace. 

I don't actually like a too tall dog...as the standard states "too much of one thing robs him of another" and for all the speed that a taller dog could get having longer legs...he would be less agile than the correctly balanced dog.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> LoneRider:
> 
> the animal planet book is poor quality info from what I remember. Pits for dummies about the same.
> 
> there are quite a few myths surrounding the breed and many of them are perpetuated by some really terrible books and websites.


A lot of it appeared to be common sense dog raising from what I could ascertain. I can't see what exactly was wrong with them. Especially the dummies book. The author had the history of pits down nearly perfect.



> If you are not going to a breeder why not try a rescue. It could be much better with having your other dog. The foster home will be able to tell you about the dog and they will be living in a home environment. You could also certainly have your family meet the dog and your other dog too.


That's actually another option I considered. And as I've stated, I'm not actively looking just yet, just curious and seeing what my options are.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

that's just it though...pit history is very subjective....you CAN'T have it down perfect. 

In my researches I will find one account that says x and then another that says y. 

a lot of conjecture surrounds the breed...such as...

some believe the pit bull to be the original English Bulldog in pure form, with 'terrier' being a misnomer and certainly the historical depictions show vast phenotypic similarities but...

other say that the pit bull is a mix between the original English Bulldog and the English White Terrier...still others say it was the English Black and Tan Terrier...others claim there is pointer blood in the pit bull...etc etc etc...


some will tell you that the Amstaff and the APBT are two separate breeds...others say the Amstaff is the "show pit bull" and the APBT is the working version...

I could go on and on and on and on with the example lol... 

I'd recommend the Colby book on APBT and a few others..Ill get you a full list after I get off work if you are interested...and I KNOW Spicy can point you to some good info.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Yes please. I could use some more useful data.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> Yes please. I could use some more useful data.


will get you the list when I get home.

in the meantime let me ask you this..

Why are you considering a pit bull? What made you hone in on this breed as a possible addition to your life? 

(i ask because the answers to questions like these will help me point you towards the right info/resources to best suit your needs)


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Yes it looks like that.
> 
> She is beautiful. She is overall nice shape and proportion, from what I can tell in the photos she has more good points than bad.
> 
> ...


Wow you pegged her very good just from photos/expressions. The things I like about her. Spunk, biddability, intelligence, drive, problem solving skills, she's in tune with me, and just her overall personality. Of course I like her conformation too. Another of her progeny now I'm curious as to which.

Oh I see what you mean with the tallness.

*Lonerider*
Try the book

Guide To American Pit Bull Terriers 

by 

Todd Fenstermacher


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> Why are you considering a pit bull? What made you hone in on this breed as a possible addition to your life?


I'm fond of the big hearted joie de vivre pits have towards life in general. I also like the fact that next to the Akita they are the dog that readily springs to mind when I think of the great loyalty that man's best friend is capable of.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Wow you pegged her very good just from photos/expressions. The things I like about her. Spunk, biddability, intelligence, drive, problem solving skills, she's in tune with me, and just her overall personality. Of course I like her conformation too.


I think working with rescue pits has greatly benefitted my ability to assess a dog both in confo and in temperment. because in rescue you see a lot of extremes and everything in between...from nice temperment dogs with ghastly builds to terror dogs with fantastic builds to terror dogs with ghastly builds to nice temperment dogs with fantastic builds and every variation thereof..you learn their little quirks...like that funny slight head tilt that tells you the dog is calmly assessing the situation or the intent, ears forward stare that means "Im all business." for example. 

Im taking that experience plus hours of studying the different standards and a gajillion photos online into being a noobie at shows. 

My goal is to develop a really sharp eye. to be able to pick out the VERY BEST dogs that are to be had at a glance. 

Once I've got that...Im gonna start learning more about handling show dogs and train for performance events. add to that the fact im in college studying biology(looking to go into some genetics and behavior studies and a vet tech cert somewhere in there) and you know where this is going Spicy. 

if im gonna do it...im gonna do it not just right...im gonna do it superbly. they deserve it. 



Spicy1_VV said:


> Another of her progeny now I'm curious as to which.


im gonna flip back through your pic threads and find that dog. 



Spicy1_VV said:


> Oh I see what you mean with the tallness.


I figure..if faced with two substandard choices...go with the one who can perform better. the tall dog would get "more bang for the buck" energy wise. 



Lonerider

see books by Louis Colby, Richard Stratton(even though he's a bit of a dweeber...he has some good points) I heard Bert Sorrells is working on a book too...should be an interesting read, and I cant remember the other one I was thinking of...I think it might have been Armitage but I don't want to say it was that one for certain..

heck...google "Rios Pit Bulls" and look at the informational pages...ignore the dogs themselves...they're beefed up fatties...but their history pages, info pages and the list of books is good. and I don't have Ray Fox's website on hand but Ill look and bring it back.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I think working with rescue pits has greatly benefitted my ability to assess a dog both in confo and in temperment. because in rescue you see a lot of extremes and everything in between...from nice temperment dogs with ghastly builds to terror dogs with fantastic builds to terror dogs with ghastly builds to nice temperment dogs with fantastic builds and every variation thereof..you learn their little quirks...like that funny slight head tilt that tells you the dog is calmly assessing the situation or the intent, ears forward stare that means "Im all business." for example.
> 
> Im taking that experience plus hours of studying the different standards and a gajillion photos online into being a noobie at shows.
> 
> ...


I never looked at working with rescues like that but I agree. It goes along with every other dog, you learn something from each one. 

You have better goals and patience then most. 



> im gonna flip back through your pic threads and find that dog.


Yeah let me know, I'm just curious now. 

Jaxon, Storm, Rubia, Five, Bella...... 



> I figure..if faced with two substandard choices...go with the one who can perform better. the tall dog would get "more bang for the buck" energy wise.


For me if all things are equal elsewhere then I'd lean towards the taller dog perhaps. Better reach, longer stride reasons. If there were other differences though I might go for the shorter dog. I really don't like the overly rangy, lanky, many of whom tend to be the fine boned dogs. 

Fine bone was/is becoming a problem with some, from one extreme of heavy bone to fine bone, either is a problem. Hank pretty much agreed with this a few years back. Think he even said there would be some mention of it in one of the past judges seminar, but can't remember. Sometimes we do start to see certain faults become more common in the show ring but it is something that needs to be kept on top of. A dog with fine bone structure could be more likely to have fractures because the bone can be easily become when it is too small.

There is one dog which has pretty good structure but few conformation faults, she is kind of short also but I'd pick her over some of the taller dogs I know. It is so hard for me to chose without actual dogs in front of me. 



> Lonerider
> 
> see books by Louis Colby, Richard Stratton(even though he's a bit of a dweeber...he has some good points) I heard Bert Sorrells is working on a book too...should be an interesting read, and I cant remember the other one I was thinking of...I think it might have been Armitage but I don't want to say it was that one for certain..
> 
> heck...google "Rios Pit Bulls" and look at the informational pages...ignore the dogs themselves...they're beefed up fatties...but their history pages, info pages and the list of books is good. and I don't have Ray Fox's website on hand but Ill look and bring it back.


Yeah Armitage has a book out there. 30yrs with fighting dogs

There is also Joe Colby's book on APBT/history of fighting dogs

There are many very interesting reads. 

On the whole height tall vs short, other then the UKC/AKC dogs being my taller dogs on average, all I really have other then that are the Stratton dogs. They are not overly rangy IMO, but have that good balance about them. Also good movers, quick, great wind and agile. My 7yr old can run circles around younger dogs and is the quickest dog on a flirtpole I've ever had (its a real workout for me). Anyway the rest of long ADBA pedigrees are not tall at all. As to the point of ADBA dogs being too tall and close to "american bulldogs" in appearance.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Did you know that the Pitbull (see the epic story of Sergeant Stubby, just one of many Pits who served in the US Army, albeit unofficially) was once a symbol of the US Army. Army history is full of stories of these steadfast and loyal companions who would not abandon wounded human comrades in their units throughout many of America's wars.

Sadly at least two Army posts have banned Pits in housing: Fort Riley, KS and Fort Carson, CO. 

If you ask me that is unfair and cruel treatment of some of America's veterans...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> Did you know that the Pitbull (see the epic story of Sergeant Stubby, just one of many Pits who served in the US Army, albeit unofficially) was once a symbol of the US Army. Army history is full of stories of these steadfast and loyal companions who would not abandon wounded human comrades in their units throughout many of America's wars.
> 
> Sadly at least two Army posts have banned Pits in housing: Fort Riley, KS and Fort Carson, CO.
> 
> If you ask me that is unfair and cruel treatment of some of America's veterans...


yup  Stubs was the man...I have a poster of him by bed. 

can you tell I like Pit Bulls?


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

^^I can tell you like Pits. 

Pits (the APBT and AmStaff), the Shepherds (Malinois and GSD) and the Northern Breeds (Siberian Husky and Alaskan Malamutes) are my favorite breed types.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> ^^I can tell you like Pits.
> 
> Pits (the APBT and AmStaff), the Shepherds (Malinois and GSD) and the Northern Breeds (Siberian Husky and Alaskan Malamutes) are my favorite breed types.


I like bullies, curs, primitive/pariahs and terriers for the most part. there are exceptions to this of course.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Just popping in to ask Spicy what the name of this pretty girl was - 
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Tris/blkntanfemale.jpg

I could swear I've seen her before (not personally, but in pictures) and was curious if it was the same dog. The dog I'm thinking of is named Gaia


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Just popping in to ask Spicy what the name of this pretty girl was -
> http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Tris/blkntanfemale.jpg
> 
> I could swear I've seen her before (not personally, but in pictures) and was curious if it was the same dog. The dog I'm thinking of is named Gaia



she reminds me of Sorrells dogs...especially the BnT dogs down from Azuma. Spicy will of course confirm or deny this...but she looks very similar to Tatonka's Kamate.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> Did you know that the Pitbull (see the epic story of Sergeant Stubby, just one of many Pits who served in the US Army, albeit unofficially) was once a symbol of the US Army. Army history is full of stories of these steadfast and loyal companions who would not abandon wounded human comrades in their units throughout many of America's wars.
> 
> Sadly at least two Army posts have banned Pits in housing: Fort Riley, KS and Fort Carson, CO.
> 
> If you ask me that is unfair and cruel treatment of some of America's veterans...


Oh yes I knew. I have Stubby pics and many other old or historic photons. I didn't know they were banned in Fort Carson though not that I remember, although I was aware of Fort Riley. It is a shame how they're reputation has turned around. 



Dakota Spirit said:


> Just popping in to ask Spicy what the name of this pretty girl was -
> http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b122/dadogs/Tris/blkntanfemale.jpg
> 
> I could swear I've seen her before (not personally, but in pictures) and was curious if it was the same dog. The dog I'm thinking of is named Gaia


Yes that is the same dog. Only one I could think of real quick that does lots of springpole.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> she reminds me of Sorrells dogs...especially the BnT dogs down from Azuma. Spicy will of course confirm or deny this...but she looks very similar to Tatonka's Kamate.


Yes her dam is Kamate, sire is XXX


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

On another note, does anyone know if molosser type dogs ever made it into the Fertile Crescent? In Iraq there are tons of feral dogs of various types.

On one patrol to an Iraqi police station I noticed there was a pit-looking dog that lived around the station as a sort of 'mascot or pet' that the Iraqi policemen and visiting US soldiers tended to feed whenever he came around. 

I've also seen what appear to be pitbull look-alikes hanging around roadside garbage piles a lot.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> On another note, does anyone know if molosser type dogs ever made it into the Fertile Crescent? In Iraq there are tons of feral dogs of various types.
> 
> On one patrol to an Iraqi police station I noticed there was a pit-looking dog that lived around the station as a sort of 'mascot or pet' that the Iraqi policemen and visiting US soldiers tended to feed whenever he came around.
> 
> I've also seen what appear to be pitbull look-alikes hanging around roadside garbage piles a lot.



if I remember my geography correctly, Iraq is not too terribly far away from Russia, where is dogfighting with pit bulls is pretty prevalent even today..it stands to reason some of those dogs would make it out of Russia.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> On another note, does anyone know if molosser type dogs ever made it into the Fertile Crescent? In Iraq there are tons of feral dogs of various types.
> 
> On one patrol to an Iraqi police station I noticed there was a pit-looking dog that lived around the station as a sort of 'mascot or pet' that the Iraqi policemen and visiting US soldiers tended to feed whenever he came around.
> 
> I've also seen what appear to be pitbull look-alikes hanging around roadside garbage piles a lot.


Yes most certainly they did. Although I'm not sure if it is made into or out of. More like made it out of. When you take into account the Assyrian Mastiff. Assyria was within the fertile crescent, the FC area today still has their share of molossers. Historically the Assyrian mastiff and the Alaunt occupied the fertile crescent and areas today that would be syria, iran, armenia, and turkey. 

Breeds native and ancient to those countries would be like

Turkey - Kangal
Armenia - Gampr along with the Caucasian Shepherd within Armenia and the other countries of Caucasus Mountain region. Also the Sarmatian Mastiff.

Syrian mastiffs that descended from these and spread throughout the area.

Then there countries surrounding this with their own breeds. The central asian shepherd breeds are all very similar and similar to caucasion shepherd. (Tobet) Kazakhstan, Sage Koochee (Afghanistan), Alabai (Turkmenistan), as well as to Uzbekistan and mastiffs of India and Pakistan. 

Dogs migrate with people often. It is not hard to think these dogs from the FC spread out into the surrounding regions. Dogs of Turkey and the like are very old breeds or at least breeds descended from very old dogs. They are primitive breeds by age and action alike.

ETA
As far as Pits yes they've made it to many countries across the globe. So it isn't uncommon to see them in places outside America. Nor to see possible Pit mixes or just mixed breeds that resemble Pits. 

Pits are molossers by their bulldog heritage. They are however a modern breed with some molosser ancestors. Much different then the molossers in the fertile crescent and surrounding areas. They are not of the primitive type of molosser. Nor are they a breed of "pure" heritage.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

so Spicy...as far as "type" is concerned with Pits...

I find it a little weird that they tend to get lumped in with terriers...because they aren't exactly terriers. 

I don't think they are Bulldogs in the purest sense...those dogs IMO are gone..

and they aren't earth dogs going to ground after small game...


they definatly aren't molossers...


the best classification I see is "Bull Terrier" but even that's a bit weird..

Pit Bull eh...I don't like that as a classification either... mostly because it has a nasty stigma....


What do you say just curious..?


(ps..it was Storm I was thinking of...But Five is nice too...and I like Ryu even though I wasn't sure if she's Santana's get...and she's very very light..that litter with Twister(i think that's his name...gawd what a beautiful dog..) made some very nice pups.  )


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> so Spicy...as far as "type" is concerned with Pits...
> 
> I find it a little weird that they tend to get lumped in with terriers...because they aren't exactly terriers.
> 
> ...


They really are an odd dog out, same with a few other breeds. 

As for registries UKC has
Guardian, Gun Dog, Companion, Terrier, Herding, Northern, Scenthound and Sighthound. 

It seems by name terrier is the only place they will fit. Unless we move them to the companion because of their loss of purpose in the fighting pits. The Dalmatian is here and so are some other terriers. 

In AKC the groups are 
Sporting
Non Sporting
Working
Hound
Terrier
Toy
Herding

Again terrier fits, but I think working would be a grand place to put them. Because they can and do still work in a number of fields. But by AKC definition they are not a working breed. (along with some other working dogs)

They do have a lot of terrier attributes. 

They for sure haven't been used as butchers dogs. 

Bull & Terrier is a good definition. I do think simply calling them a working dog in general is ok. People get the idea. They can make effective dogs at doing a terriers work too. There are others in the terrier group which are out of the norm for a terrier. But if they are part terrier or did the job of a terrier that is where they are stuck at. 

Breeds of dogs which descended from molossers whether they be mixed with another breed type are often still considered molossers, though it is only be relation. They have some molosser blood in them. Some more then others. 

Other then that not much we can go on. I see them as a very versatile breed. One that is a fine working and performance dog. 

Many breeds can fit into multi types/groups depending on the classification. 

A Kangal is a molosser, a guardian, a working dog, a livestock dog, ect

Yes Twister and Santana did produce nicely together. I like a lot about them. I like the temperament attributes they got from her and the overall structure from both parents. Both Storm and Five are nice dogs in their own way. I really think Five is a nice male, not overdone nor underdone. Storm is fine as well and I think will fill out a little more, she isn't truly lacking substance overall but it seems Santana didn't fully fill out around really around 4yrs old. I think she is going the same route. 

Ryu is another of my favorites too. Though she doesn't have the same problem solving skills. Overall she appears to have a solid temperament, tons of drive, good structure, very agile, I can get her to focus and learn. So yes I'm very pleased with her too. She is not of Santana but rather from GR CH Boogieman/CH Butkus breeding.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

yeah the classification schemes are a bit strange in themselves..I wish they were a little more...I dunno...consistently logical..

like as an example gave two types of classification 

purpose and type.


purpose be two general categories...working and companion...


and then within those two have

gundogs
hounds
terriers
guardian
livestock dogs
primitive


in that scheme a pit would simply be a working dog..one bred for a particular job outside of being a companion...the dogs that don't really fit into the more specific categories(and you could apply more than one category...like a Pyr would be Working Livestock and guardian) could simply be working or companion.. 

lol..im just rambling now...Lonerider sorry for the slight OT..


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> I don't think they are Bulldogs in the purest sense...those dogs IMO are gone..
> 
> and they aren't earth dogs going to ground after small game...
> 
> ...


I always took the title of Pitbull to mean the fact that the dogs were bull dogs crossbred with larger terriers (for the gameness aspect mating the molosser/mastiff's strength) for purposes of the fight pit. However that created one of the most versatile and misunderstood breeds in the world.



> Yes most certainly they did. Although I'm not sure if it is made into or out of. More like made it out of. When you take into account the Assyrian Mastiff. Assyria was within the fertile crescent, the FC area today still has their share of molossers. Historically the Assyrian mastiff and the Alaunt occupied the fertile crescent and areas today that would be syria, iran, armenia, and turkey.
> 
> Breeds native and ancient to those countries would be like
> 
> ...


I seem to remember molossers were very valuable amongst Phoenecian traders who journeyed all over the ancient world, including the FC. The dogs were so valued that they were even a form of trading currency and when the Phoenecians reached the British Isles the dogs were mated with mastiffs of the area to create the ancestors of the Bull and Terrier as well.

It sounds like there are pit type dogs that live in the Fertile Crescent. The one by the Iraqi police station is a sort of pet for the policemen and likes to snack on scraps we'll feed him when we pass by it on patrol. It will bark whenever people that aren't Iraqi police or US troops show up too.

Even the Romans used the molossers as pit fighters too. Roman cruelty was not just toward their fellow humans. The ancestors of pits fought in the Colosseum it seems.

So would some rate Pits as Mastiff types as well? A fellow soldier and amateur dog enthusiast says Pits are basically miniature Mastiffs. I don't agree, frankly. I wonder what other pit fanciers think of that statement.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

no I don't agree with that.

the breed that comes to mind when I think of the phrase "small mastiff" is the Boxer.


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## redroses (Jul 15, 2009)

Thanks for replying, everyone. It appears we have a decent cross-section of people here and a lot of well thought-out discussion.
 simulation credit immobilier


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Heck I think of something like the Bull or Neopolitan Mastiff when I hear the term Mastiff. I know the Molosser is considered by some to be a common ancestor of both the Mastiff type and the Bull and Terriers pitbulls descend from.

On another note, there was one civilian police advisor (the sort of guy who trains Iraqi policemen and who works as a police officer in South Central LA) I've spoken to who said he's had to deal with tons of badly bred pits, usually property of illegal dogfighters or drug dealers. He's one of those guys who says pits tend to turn on their owners (I don't believe this, it's about training and knowing your pooch no matter what or who he is) and also he's had to put down pits that have attacked him whilst on calls or counter-narcotics raids. Can bad breeding/abuse be treated in most pits? I've heard horror stories throughout the web of rescued ex-fighting pits who've turned on their new masters. Are these true or mostly chaff?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> Heck I think of something like the Bull or Neopolitan Mastiff when I hear the term Mastiff. I know the Molosser is considered by some to be a common ancestor of both the Mastiff type and the Bull and Terriers pitbulls descend from.


I think of those too...but the Boxer IS a Molosser..



LoneRider said:


> On another note, there was one civilian police advisor (the sort of guy who trains Iraqi policemen and who works as a police officer in South Central LA) I've spoken to who said he's had to deal with tons of badly bred pits, usually property of illegal dogfighters or drug dealers. He's one of those guys who says pits tend to turn on their owners (I don't believe this, it's about training and knowing your pooch no matter what or who he is) and also he's had to put down pits that have attacked him whilst on calls or counter-narcotics raids. Can bad breeding/abuse be treated in most pits? I've heard horror stories throughout the web of rescued ex-fighting pits who've turned on their new masters. Are these true or mostly chaff?


yes. I think I mentioned in this thread that I do pit rescue. 

I rehab those who have issues. I do it almost every day. 

the thing is...any dog can turn on its owner...if the owner treats it like dirt...and that includes *trying* to make it aggressive. its just that due to the sheer numbers of pit and pit mixes and bullies..and their image as a "tough dog" and such...you get more of those instances. 

the fix?

rehab and alter those that can be rehabbed and find them *qualified* homes.

educate people on responsible dog ownership.

Only breed those pits with high quality temperment and structure and ability. Sell only to *qualified* homes.

Make laws regarding dog ownership in general more punitive. but not breed specific...like for example...no one gave me a spot on the news any of the seven times i've been attacked by nasty German Shepherds. No one gave my mom a spot on the news when she had fingers removed due to a golden retriever bite. Breed specific laws ignore the other victims. that's wrong. 

www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com

a good link on dog bites.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> I seem to remember molossers were very valuable amongst Phoenecian traders who journeyed all over the ancient world, including the FC. The dogs were so valued that they were even a form of trading currency and when the Phoenecians reached the British Isles the dogs were mated with mastiffs of the area to create the ancestors of the Bull and Terrier as well.
> 
> It sounds like there are pit type dogs that live in the Fertile Crescent. The one by the Iraqi police station is a sort of pet for the policemen and likes to snack on scraps we'll feed him when we pass by it on patrol. It will bark whenever people that aren't Iraqi police or US troops show up too.
> 
> ...


I've read the same of Phoenecians having dogs as well. These dogs being bred with Mastiff of British Isles where did the dogs of the Brits come from? The ancient molossers are said to be the ancestors of those and other mastiffs. 

As for the ancestor of the bull / terrier I've heard some theories. Though it is most probable that bulldogs went back to the molossers. Bulldogs were considered small mastiffs, but it is a dog of different type then the typical mastiffs we think of today. A bulldog also would not always mean a specific breed. It was a butchers dog or a bull baiting dog. This would be true of terriers also, different terriers were bred together early on and some bred within different regions (which is how some came to be named) within a closed gene pool which turned into types/lines/breeds. 

Romans certainly made use of the molosser dogs. It seems in many types of contest. Today the bully kutta is still a larger type fighting breed. One that is agile, slender built but big and powerful. 

There are also the Great Danes. Today many are bred only for show and many do not have the same temperament they had really not all that long ago it seems. From what I observe people (Dane breeders and the like) do not want them known as guardians nor hunters, ect. 

Molossers have spread throughout the world in one way or another. I would not however call Pit Bulls a mini mastiff. To me they do not have the quality of a mastiff nor do they have blood of modern mastiff breeds.



LoneRider said:


> On another note, there was one civilian police advisor (the sort of guy who trains Iraqi policemen and who works as a police officer in South Central LA) I've spoken to who said he's had to deal with tons of badly bred pits, usually property of illegal dogfighters or drug dealers. He's one of those guys who says pits tend to turn on their owners (I don't believe this, it's about training and knowing your pooch no matter what or who he is) and also he's had to put down pits that have attacked him whilst on calls or counter-narcotics raids. Can bad breeding/abuse be treated in most pits? I've heard horror stories throughout the web of rescued ex-fighting pits who've turned on their new masters. Are these true or mostly chaff?


I'm sure as a police officer in the city he's had to deal with a lot of badly bred and trained Pits. They are popular with gangs as fighting dogs and protection dogs. They are also utilized as guard dogs of drug houses (though some are actually quite friendly and are of no threat to trespassers/police officers, unfortunately others really are vicious junk yard type guard dogs). 

Pits in general do not tend to turn on their owners. But they can turn on their owner/family just like any other breed. A lot of dog owners (not breed specific but Pits included) do not have the most stable dogs or the dog has an issue that isn't being addressed. When this is ignored or goes unnoticed it isn't resolved then the dog finally attacks whether that is someone in the family or outside the family. This happens in all breeds and in dogs from varying environments from small to large dogs in a nice family setting treated with kindness to a dog that has never been treated right. Dogs that are badly abused tend to fear people and fear their owners too much to turn on them but some might be more likely to attack others out of fear. 

I would say the stories are mostly BS. A lot of the lies of Pit Bulls and fighting dogs myths are perpetuated by the HSUS. So while their are bad in the bunch without a doubt, you can't deny that, dogs that aren't culled that should have been most game/game bred dogs have solid temperaments. I've met a few man aggressive Pits and the majority were not that of game breeding. Overall I've had only one dangerous of all the Pits I've owned. Truly a screw loose with that dog. The good nature, stability, trustworthiness with humans of the breed comes from being pit dogs so it is illogical to think that it would at the same time make them untrustworthy, it'd be like a contradiction. There is no way I believe that most of my dogs ancestors were dangerous or that they did/would turn on their owners. I also find it ironic that when the heat came on pit fighting and it started to be outlawed soon followed the time when they started to become known as aggressive, dangerous dogs. Not previously when these pit dogs were known for also being good family pets, great dogs with children and dogs of courage. Look at Petey of the Our Gang comedies, I'm sure no one looked down on him for his breed, nor fretted that the children were in danger. The same of his GR CH pit fighting sire. Pit Bulls were not considered to be "bred to attack and kill" "unpredictable and vicious" until later on after the dog fighting crack down.

None of my ex fighters have ever had anything but friendly temperaments to humans, some very over friendly. I also say overall stability is there. Though to be honest there is an exception but then she was badly abused so she was fearful of people. Still not the lease bit aggressive. Only taking forever to trust us, then was like a totally different dog (with us, happy, playful she learned to play). But with people she did not know she would try to hide or just stand very still. She did warm up to one pit/dog lover immediately, it was awesome to see. Then she also went on to not behave so skittishly at vet visits. Her temperament has nothing to do with fighting and more to do with the physical abuse she received from her previous owner. I also don't know of her early handling/socialization which I imagine was probably just as terrible. When bad things happen early on they can be more damaging in some dogs. Even neglect can cause fear and other issues. 

A lot of people want to be blind to the good nature of these dogs. The Vick dogs helped to change some minds going into pet homes with success and Leo becoming a therapy. Only 1 was put down for bad temperament out of all of them. And we know from the accounts that these dogs were horribly abused and neglected. It is true that some are still at a sanctuary, the worst cases and those that would not adapt so quickly, it is not due to aggression.
You must consider the abuse/neglect they suffered. It is not really different then puppy mill rescues, some are put down because of temperament or they take lots of time to rehab. If you lock a dog away for its whole life, like Vick did or others do, the dog does not know how to act around people nor how to interact with them. Humans are more complex but if you do this to a child you get just the same, the child would not know how to behave, how to interact with other people, how to play. Dogs are not as complex, much more resilient and much easier to rehab. They can learn and adjust quicker. 

I do not think a true man aggressive temperament by blood can be "treated" if it is the type that is unpredictable. Without a cause for the dogs aggression nor a trigger to know of. There really is no basis to work with. At least I'm not risking this myself nor put my families life in that type of danger.

ETA
Dog aggression and human aggression are 2 different things. Aggression to humans in this breed is seen for a number of reasons. Even in dogs not from abusive homes, even those who think they treat their dogs perfect and their dog will always be an angel. Pit Bulls can become DA and are perfectly capable of attacking other dogs/starting fights all on their own even if it is the last thing they want their owner to do. There is no reason to think that setting a dog in a pit and allowing them to do this will some how turn them into a dog that will attack their family. Whether the dog fights and the owner wants it to or the dog fights and the owner doesn't want it to it would still be the same dog. Stable just the same if it was prior. The dog does not know it is wrong or that it is illegal. The dog is just doing what it knows to do.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Again I will make sure I visit various rescues before I adopt a pit, I likely will bring my own dog so he can interact or at least encounter his future housemate. Is this a bad idea or a good one? 

As I've also stated it might be a while before I adopt a pit, maybe two or three years from now, when I transfer into the Reserves and have more time. My folks are wonderful and even my grandparents are consistent with training my own dog, the Malinois. 



> A bulldog also would not always mean a specific breed. It was a butchers dog or a bull baiting dog. This would be true of terriers also, different terriers were bred together early on and some bred within different regions (which is how some came to be named) within a closed gene pool which turned into types/lines/breeds.


Well I'd heard that the bull and terriers were butcher's/stock/farm dogs initially before they were used as fighting animals. 

My father has often said of pitbulls that there are few other breeds where it is absolutely vital that you are the alpha, no questions to be fielded. I'd say he's correct. 

That is wonderful to hear that the Vick pitbulls are largely being rehabilitated. I've seen the Dog Town special on them. Did Dogtown take all of them?

As to the HSUS anti-Pit agenda, I tend to prefer the ASPCA, or are they anti-Pit as well? That would be odd, considering my friend adopted their pit from an ASPCA shelter and that dog absolutely loves her, her husband and baby. The dog actually insists on sniffing any room that the baby is in for any hazards. I wish I had a picture, then I could show pit detractors that pits and kids can get along.

I'm guessing public opinion will turn around to save the Pitbull eventually. Owners and breeders just have to be cognizant and always on the alert. This thread I posted in the General Discussion session of a Star Trek forum I visited seems a tad promising. A majority of those polled in the attached poll don't blame the breed but say that their opinion is of individual dogs and owners.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Alpha male? lmao

Im female. 

so is Spicy. 

so are the majority of pit owners I know. 





I disagree with the "alpha" thing..but that's a whole 'nother thread.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Dad meant you had to be a leader, no questions asked, with that variety of canid. Alpha doesn't always mean male. A herd matriarch of a hyena pride is an 'alpha female'.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> Dad meant you had to be a leader, no questions asked, with that variety of canid.


oh I was just commenting on something I read in that trekkie thread..someone siad you have to be the "alpha male" specifically "male" to own a pit. 

last time I checked I was a girl.  I would hope that would still be the case...though oth I hope not if that means I have to go trade in my pit bull for a bichon.. 

some of the stuff I read on that thread was wacky..some conjecture..and some was pretty on point..


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Yeah, I was quoting more the original conversation with my father when I wrote that post. He said alpha male, and in that context he was talking to me, his son. Most of the onpoint stuff by Dingo was mine (Dingo being my label on that forum).

And I never intended to say females couldn't be pitbull owners. As stated a good friend of mine (female) owns a pit. And she is definitely the alpha of the two of them.

I had no intent to be mysogynistic with that post at all.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

its cool...I thought it was funny...I looked at Bolo and said "well, I guess you're a bichon now. That's great! Now we don't have to worry about BSL anymore! but im not entirely sure where im gonna put the little pink bows..." and at that moment she turned her butt at me and cut a big fart. I fell out of my chair laughing. 


as for "alpha"...that's wolf terminology...in wolf terms the alpha is the senior breeding wolf and nothing more. its a zoological term that isn't really applicable to dogs...since most don't breed. 

though I understand what you mean by it. I consider my dog my partner and she plays an active role in decision making however thats ...like I said...a whole 'nother thread.

as for the Vick dogs, Dogtown got most of them... www.badrap.org got a few... Jessup had her hands on at least one of them for a bit too. 

ASPCA...honestly id look for a good breed specific rescue...they're usually better equipped...though the screening process is a little more vigorous.

as for bringing your own dog, that's up to the individual rescue org. Most will actually require a neutral meeting...the reputable rescues anyway. Be prepared to be grilled with a ton of questions...they don't want to give these dogs to just any old person..

Bulldogs *were* stockdogs. the nature of the work a *butcher's dog* did was to basically herd bulls. Pits have been a lot of things to different people...heck Helen Keller had a pit.

and public opinion won't change for the better unless people stop being jerkwads and mistreating their dogs..


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

I probably will go for a breed specific rescue and check for dogs that are of a mellow, non-domineering temperment. Also if the rescue allows I'd like to introduce my dog to his future housemate on neutral ground so I facilitate the dogs beginning to build the rapport neccesary for good housemates. What are good signs for first meetings? 

I've seen plenty of wonderful pits, including the one owned by my friend.



> as for "alpha"...that's wolf terminology...in wolf terms the alpha is the senior breeding wolf and nothing more. its a zoological term that isn't really applicable to dogs...since most don't breed.


I've seen the term alpha being used in various dog publications to describe pack leadership, especially in feral dog packs. And frequently I've seen wolf terminology at times applied in dog publications since they say all dogs are descended from the wolf. Some more than others, obviously.

I've also had sources inform me pitbulls were also all around farm dogs of the American West, brought to North America by English immigrants where they were crossbred to be on the larger, heavier side to be the all purpose work dogs of the American farm where they served as guardians, livestock dogs, and anything else farmers dreamt up for them.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> I probably will go for a breed specific rescue and check for dogs that are of a mellow, non-domineering temperment. Also if the rescue allows I'd like to introduce my dog to his future housemate on neutral ground so I facilitate the dogs beginning to build the rapport neccesary for good housemates. What are good signs for first meetings?


play. non aggressive play behaviors. which are play bows, loosely wagging tails, trading off the aggressor/chasee roles.



> I've seen the term alpha being used in various dog publications to describe pack leadership, especially in feral dog packs. And frequently I've seen wolf terminology at times applied in dog publications since they say all dogs are descended from the wolf. Some more than others, obviously.


not obviously.

this is the guy that thought up the word "alpha" and HE says it's wrong.
http://www.davemech.org/news.html

and wolf behavior is vastly different than that of dogs. it doesn't really become apparent until you meet one but..wolves are WILD. Dogs are NOT. that make a HUGE difference. they may be related but they are NOT the same animal. and yes I've been around wolves in face to face kind of scenarios. 

as for ferals, they form loose packs with little to no structure. 

leader is a more accurate term for what you are trying to describe.


But that's waaay off topic lol. 



> I've also had sources inform me pitbulls were also all around farm dogs of the American West, brought to North America by English immigrants where they were crossbred to be on the larger, heavier side to be the all purpose work dogs of the American farm where they served as guardians, livestock dogs, and anything else farmers dreamt up for them.



some were some weren't. the attitude back then was kind of "its a dog. it pulls its weight in the work or doesn't do crap cuz its dead" some of that is absolutely true and confirmed by historical photos and depictions...other aren't .


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> Again I will make sure I visit various rescues before I adopt a pit, I likely will bring my own dog so he can interact or at least encounter his future housemate. Is this a bad idea or a good one?


I don't see why it wouldn't be a good idea. You want to see how they react and interact. 



> Well I'd heard that the bull and terriers were butcher's/stock/farm dogs initially before they were used as fighting animals.


Bulldogs were butchers dogs and baiting dogs. The bull and terrier dogs were more so fighting dogs (dog against dog). Though they had many other uses because of various owners. 



> My father has often said of pitbulls that there are few other breeds where it is absolutely vital that you are the alpha, no questions to be fielded. I'd say he's correct.


I could not agree with him as being correct. There are plenty of other breeds where that is very vital, when compared more so then a Pit. Certain aspects of them call for a handler who does know what they are doing but their high willingness to please and more "submissive" to humans nature doesn't make them all that hard. I always hear the same things though. Pit Bulls are dominant, stubborn, hard to train, need an alpha, ect. People make them out to have this special need more so then other breeds. Pits and Boxers are probably the easiest I've ever had. Especially since getting into the other breeds. Big difference there, I've had to adjust my training technique, learn patience, be very consistent on somethings, the list goes on. I really love other breeds for what they are but why can't they all be so easy as the Pits? 



> That is wonderful to hear that the Vick pitbulls are largely being rehabilitated. I've seen the Dog Town special on them. Did Dogtown take all of them?


No only the ones that needed to be rehabbed/special treatment. The others went into rescue/foster homes where they were then adopted. 



> As to the HSUS anti-Pit agenda, I tend to prefer the ASPCA, or are they anti-Pit as well? That would be odd, considering my friend adopted their pit from an ASPCA shelter and that dog absolutely loves her, her husband and baby. The dog actually insists on sniffing any room that the baby is in for any hazards. I wish I had a picture, then I could show pit detractors that pits and kids can get along.


To my knowledge ASPCA is not anti Pit and they are good all around for animals. Well ASPCA actually runs shelters too, unlike the HSUS therefore they do not adopt out any dogs of any breed. ASPCA is for animals much different then HSUS or PETA who want domestic animals done. 



> I'm guessing public opinion will turn around to save the Pitbull eventually. Owners and breeders just have to be cognizant and always on the alert. This thread I posted in the General Discussion session of a Star Trek forum I visited seems a tad promising. A majority of those polled in the attached poll don't blame the breed but say that their opinion is of individual dogs and owners.


Yeah I hope so.



LoneRider said:


> I've also had sources inform me pitbulls were also all around farm dogs of the American West, brought to North America by English immigrants where they were crossbred to be on the larger, heavier side to be the all purpose work dogs of the American farm where they served as guardians, livestock dogs, and anything else farmers dreamt up for them.


I've never seen any evidence to support this. I'm not really seeing these dogs in my dogs pedigrees to my knowledge nor is their really any explanation of what "Bred up in size" means because they are not big dogs so how small were they supposedly?. So to what size and with what breed/breeds. They still looked the same as their imported ancestors in physical build and size.
I have seen historical photos including that of my family and others with Pits. From railroaders, to business owners, to random families, ect. Different people did utilize them for different purposes so certainly some as farm dogs or for other purposes. 

That history sounds much like the American Bulldog history. A larger breed of dog often used as catch, stock and guard dogs.


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## DieselDawg (Oct 9, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> Dad meant you had to be a leader, no questions asked, with that variety of canid. Alpha doesn't always mean male. A herd matriarch of a hyena pride is an 'alpha female'.



....but Hyenas are not dogs or of the Canid Genus. They are more closely related to cats and are part of the Meerkat family.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> Originally Posted by LoneRider
> Dad meant you had to be a leader, no questions asked, with that variety of canid. Alpha doesn't always mean male. A herd matriarch of a hyena pride is an 'alpha female'.
> 
> 
> ....but Hyenas are not dogs or of the Canid Genus. They are more closely related to cats and are part of the Meerkat family.


I know that. I meant that the term alpha is not limited to the male gender in the context of animal hierarchies. 



> That history sounds much like the American Bulldog history. A larger breed of dog often used as catch, stock and guard dogs.


Don't Pitbulls draw at least part of their ancestry from the American Bulldog as well? I recall that same account where my information came from said that English settlers bred their bull and terrier crosses with larger American dogs for the all purpose farm dog that the pitbull became.

I've also heard the term _bullenbeiser_, which seems to be some type of stock dog as well. What's a bullenbeiser? 



> Pits and Boxers are probably the easiest I've ever had. Especially since getting into the other breeds.


Really? Easier than my Malinois? I guess we figured they've got that same spirited nature of almost any terrier, that's why the alpha comment.

I guess I've been misinformed about the pitbull's nature all these years. That's why I'm doing my research, to see what it is exactly I'm dealing with. 

I find this breed, a former symbol of the American spirit that is now badly maligned thanks to a few media (insert expletive here)-ers, to be quite fascinating thus far.



> play. non aggressive play behaviors. which are play bows, loosely wagging tails, trading off the aggressor/chasee roles.


OK. So meeting on neutral ground would be best, perhaps a park or an open field somewhere?

On another note, I've seen that in Brazil pitbulls aren't as badly maligned as they are here in the US. Mostly Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practicioners and MMA fighters tend to own them and take care of their dogs. In fact one of the Gracie family, Renzo Gracie, has a Mixed Martial Arts team called the New York Pitbulls in dedication to the great heart and toughness that the pitbull has. I'd call that a step in a good direction for public opinion on the pit.

Another piece of trivia. Did you know that the _spetsnaz_, Russia's special forces, are also known as Russia's Pitbulls? This has been attributed to the extreme toughness of the typical _spetsnaz_ soldier.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> Don't Pitbulls draw at least part of their ancestry from the American Bulldog as well? I recall that same account where my information came from said that English settlers bred their bull and terrier crosses with larger American dogs for the all purpose farm dog that the pitbull became.


No they came here from places such as England and Ireland. Which would mean while there is bulldog no _American_ Bulldog. American Bulldog would not have been across the pond.

Pit Bulls did not become all purpose farm dogs. (Although again some would call ABs such) They were brought here as pit dogs and continued to be pit dogs. Some did come just as family dogs, some were sold just as pet/family dogs. Even dogs within our dogs pedigrees might have been a dog that a dogman sold as a pet and got back later or bred to later. So some made it for other uses and as pets, like those in the photos railroaders, farmers, hunters, ect having them. But they did not change and become something else. It is no different then any other breed being owned for something other then their purpose. 

I realize this is something you've heard and not your own idea. But I say the same as I did in the last post, I've never seen evidence which suggest that they were bred with American Bulldogs. If this is true then I'd like to see some proof. Or at least evidence backing the theory. I'm not asking you, but to whoever thinks of these and other theories they seem to pull on a whim. 

Their appearance from those imported on down the line did not change much. People say cross for added size, but they were never a tiny dog breed. These were not originally 10-25lbs dogs. Most any bulldog is at least a medium sized breed. While they are said to be crossed with terrier, which are typically small (though not all are/were), they are not all 100% terrier. 

Then there is the important issue of pedigrees. If this breed really came to be by the infusion of American Bulldog then I don't see a reason why they would not show this. Because back then there would be no reason to hide any sort of crossing and paper hanging would not take place. 

Some lines of American Bulldog have Pit blood bred into them. Once more it sounds like the history you are describing is that of the American Bulldog. Not the APBT nor Pit/AB crosses. The bulldogs (of england) brought here came to be known as the American Bulldog. They were not crossed with Pit Bull. The AB however is likely most similar to the bulldogs that were used to create pit bulls.

You are looking at already loosely established "breeds" that were brought here and became known as american by breed name. 

In recent time some Pits do have American Bulldog but that is much different then AB as foundation of the breed. That is breeders not keeping the breed honest. So while I might see a 95lbs Pit Bull weight pulling who has American Bulldog in his 4th generation most my dog nor most the rest of the APBTs out there share his blood. No different then if a breeder mixes their golden with a lab and still calls it a lab. 

All these theories of pit bulls were created by crossing to american bulldog, bullmastiff, pointer, setter, coonhound or greyhound obviously can not all be true because of the very fact they'd contradict each other. 



> I've also heard the term _bullenbeiser_, which seems to be some type of stock dog as well. What's a bullenbeiser?


Bullenbeisser was a bulldog. It is said to be ancestor of the Boxer and if you look at original Boxers they looked closely to what the Bullenbeisser did. These were bulldogs of germany, hence the name. This breed came from molossers as Zim mentioned the Boxer is a molosser. 



> Really? Easier than my Malinois? I guess we figured they've got that same spirited nature of almost any terrier, that's why the alpha comment.
> 
> I guess I've been misinformed about the pitbull's nature all these years. That's why I'm doing my research, to see what it is exactly I'm dealing with.
> 
> I find this breed, a former symbol of the American spirit that is now badly maligned thanks to a few media (insert expletive here)-ers, to be quite fascinating thus far.


I don't know about your Malinois. I only know about mine and others I've had experience with. In certain ways easier but neither is perfect. Some Malinois are also not as drivey as others, maybe some don't even require the same amount, which is a lot of socialization (though I doubt that but I'm not going to guess about your dog). I really wasn't speaking of my Malinois or any other Malinois more so of the mastiffs and primitive molosser breeds (mainly those used for flock guardian/property guards/dog fighting). Dealing with these dogs is a different playing field. The dogs do not bend at my every wish. They can challenge, they can think what they are doing is best. Raising my voice means nothing. Getting upset which I've learned not to do -patience- gives me a brick wall. With other breeds I don't have these problems, Pit Bulls included. I can think of breeds that require more in certain aspects of ownership as well as being always the leader and very consistent.

They do have some of the terrier temperament traits. But they are not "too terrier" I feel most have a good enough balance in temperament, drives, ect. There are harder to handle terrier breeds out there. Some are too smart for your own good, a little stubborn and very, very driven. 



> OK. So meeting on neutral ground would be best, perhaps a park or an open field somewhere?


That is probably a good idea if you can manage. 



> On another note, I've seen that in Brazil pitbulls aren't as badly maligned as they are here in the US. Mostly Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practicioners and MMA fighters tend to own them and take care of their dogs. In fact one of the Gracie family, Renzo Gracie, has a Mixed Martial Arts team called the New York Pitbulls in dedication to the great heart and toughness that the pitbull has. I'd call that a step in a good direction for public opinion on the pit.


Pit fighting is common enough in Brazil without much of the negative implications of fighting dogs. The dangers and such, so I can see why people there do not freak as much as people around here. It is about what has been planted in their head. Media is a powerful tool that can do great damage rather quickly. I've plenty pics/peds on Pits of Brazil. 



> Another piece of trivia. Did you know that the _spetsnaz_, Russia's special forces, are also known as Russia's Pitbulls? This has been attributed to the extreme toughness of the typical _spetsnaz_ soldier.


Not something I knew.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> I know that. I meant that the term alpha is not limited to the male gender in the context of animal hierarchies. .


in social species the hierarchies vary extremely and "alpha" means different things to different animals(lol...im a biology major in college...i study this stuff.  )




LoneRider said:


> Really? Easier than my Malinois? I guess we figured they've got that same spirited nature of almost any terrier, that's why the alpha comment.
> 
> I guess I've been misinformed about the pitbull's nature all these years. That's why I'm doing my research, to see what it is exactly I'm dealing with.
> 
> I find this breed, a former symbol of the American spirit that is now badly maligned thanks to a few media (insert expletive here)-ers, to be quite fascinating thus far.


Yeah the media hasnt been too helpful...but its really idiots who get dogs and dont think to learn wtf they are doing before they get them...they have all these things that they have heard about pits and about dogs in general and they dont think to make sure if any of it is true or not until they actually have the dog and are experiencing serious issues..and often by then its too late and the animal is in quarantine with AC....thats the biggest issue imo and the rest of it stems from that.

a Mal is the same in some respects to a pit and other respects very very different. of course all this varies somewhat from individual dog to individual dog but a pit is meant to be a balanced animal..balanced in form and in temperment. they are very versatile in that respect. some can be little hellions though...my dog is a perfect example of pit bull hellionness lol..





LoneRider said:


> OK. So meeting on neutral ground would be best, perhaps a park or an open field somewhere?.


that would be the best and most rescues will not only allow this, they encourage it.



LoneRider said:


> On another note, I've seen that in Brazil pitbulls aren't as badly maligned as they are here in the US. Mostly Brazilian Jiu Jitsu practicioners and MMA fighters tend to own them and take care of their dogs. In fact one of the Gracie family, Renzo Gracie, has a Mixed Martial Arts team called the New York Pitbulls in dedication to the great heart and toughness that the pitbull has. I'd call that a step in a good direction for public opinion on the pit.



on that note...spicy have you heard anything more about the south american pit bull games thing?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> on that note...spicy have you heard anything more about the south american pit bull games thing?


Haven't heard anything really since the invitation to their nationals in Peru. I don't think we will be going, I think it is just too expensive. I checked out plane tickets and I was like gee this isn't bad, then I checked for later in the year and they were very expensive. I guess because it would be winter here is the only thing I could think. Our club decided on some similar events so its all fun here.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> I realize this is something you've heard and not your own idea. But I say the same as I did in the last post, I've never seen evidence which suggest that they were bred with American Bulldogs. If this is true then I'd like to see some proof. Or at least evidence backing the theory. I'm not asking you, but to whoever thinks of these and other theories they seem to pull on a whim.


I got that one from the Pitbulls for Dummies book. 

The comment about the Mixed Martial Arts team calling themselves the Pitbulls is out of admiration of the dogs' strength and gameness as well as the great heart that Pits put into anything they do.

It's an interesting thing to note that many mixed martial artists, such as Sean Sherk and Renzo Gracie have a fondness for the Pitbull. Yes it's probably due to the tough guy image such dogs have inherent to them due to a violent past, but they are known to take good care and love their own dogs.



> So some made it for other uses and as pets, like those in the photos railroaders, farmers, hunters, ect having them. But they did not change and become something else. It is no different then any other breed being owned for something other then their purpose.


Thanks for the insight. 

Interestingly enough I recall tales of Victorian gentlemen owning their fighting dogs as family pets with nary an issue. No, I don't condone dog fighting, but I often use this example to show that pits are not by nature human aggressive.

A fairly disturbing pitbull related quote I heard while watching DVD of the HBO Miniseries Generation Kill, which follows the US Marine Corps 1st Reconaissance Battalion during the 2003 invasion: "The Marine Corps is like America's little pitbull. Beat it. Starve it. Then every once in a while let it loose to attack someone." -Attributed to Corporal Ray Person, USMC, 1st Recon Battalion.

That was an oh not so subtle hint that public opinion on pitbulls still has a way to go.

On another note, I suppose it's fair to say that the molosser is basically the ancestor of the modern mastiff, boxer, and pitbull?

And the American Staffordshire Terrier is a cousin of the Pitbull, but a separate breed as I understand. From what I gather, the AST was an attempt to get Pits recognized by the AKC but the AKC would not accept them so the AST was bred to distance the breed from the dog fighting past. Or is my information inaccurate?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> I Interestingly enough I recall tales of Victorian gentlemen owning their fighting dogs as family pets with nary an issue. No, I don't condone dog fighting, but I often use this example to show that pits are not by nature human aggressive.


Yes quite true. 



> On another note, I suppose it's fair to say that the molosser is basically the ancestor of the modern mastiff, boxer, and pitbull?


All in all their is more then one molosser breed but yes. Because the mastiffs descended from this, then the bulldogs of which went into the Boxer and the Pit Bull. 



> And the American Staffordshire Terrier is a cousin of the Pitbull, but a separate breed as I understand. From what I gather, the AST was an attempt to get Pits recognized by the AKC but the AKC would not accept them so the AST was bred to distance the breed from the dog fighting past. Or is my information inaccurate?


The AmStaff is an APBT with a different name under the AKC. It is called APBT under the UKC. Either are Pit Bulls. Pit bull can apply to more then one breed. 

In 1935 AKC did accept Pits to be registered under the name of Staffordshire Terrier. I mentioned Petey earlier, he was one of the dogs registered with the AKC. Actually several of Black Jack's progeny along with various other well known game bred dogs are seen in the pedigrees of the foundation or heavy influential AmStaffs. You'll see lots of dual registered dogs at that time. 1935 was not the end of it as stud books were allowed to open by AKC so still decades later more APBTs were dual registered with AKC as AmStaff (which by then the name had been changed to American Staffordshire Terrier). So they can only be but the same breed by genetics. The AmStaff wasn't out crossed to other breeds. Yet they were bred in a different direction for the most part and the standard is slightly different. I find though that they really look a lot like their ancestors, some of their ancestors anyway. The standard preserved certain proportions of specific dogs of the past. You can get a big variation in type within a breed but it doesn't make them different breeds* all in all. Think of barbie collies and working border collies. There can be a noticeable difference in conformation and temperament with these dogs. We see it often in working breeds. 

*In some cases even without out crosses a strain of dogs can become so unrecognizable or so far away from the original dogs that it should be classes as a different breed. Breeding for different values could lead to this but it is really up to the people to split them off into different breeds even though they might not have out crosses. They could leave them as certain types or lines within a breed that excel at a specific task or they can split them. In some cases they also do this by color, they are separated as different breeds even though they are in fact still the same. 

Look at the Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, I myself would not recognize this as its own breed. More so a bloodline within the American Bulldog breed. Seems to be how they came to be. Simply one families line of dogs. They go back as a line longer then many AB lines, but that is no different then in certain other breeds. Like the Colby line of APBTs. If you have a family who will breed for generations then they will keep the dogs going for generations. For many they either did not have this going for them when some of the early dogs were here, their own children/grand children who would keep the line going or the breeders who do have longer lines were not around back then so the line is shorter. ABBBs did have that going for them, but why should they not be a bloodline of AB rather then a separate breed. They came from ABs, the bulldogs brought here from across the pond, and they were bred for the same function by the line/breeds founder. AmStaff are bred within a close registry now so they are their own strain but not different enough yet to be an entirely different breed. If they AKC had also used the name APBT then their wouldn't be so much debate about it. It'd be settled simply that most the time they have been bred in different directions is all. Like we see in many other breeds.

As I mentioned ABs, one could consider scott type and johnson type different breeds. They could take the extremes of those and chose to split them and have them registered as seperate breed, but that is not the case. They are still considered the same breed and often bred together or dogs of both lines are being bred in varying percentages of scott or johnson blood in the pedigree.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

I'm not quite so familiar with a Scott Type or Johnson Type APBT breed. But I never quite looked into lineage as I'm more interested in adopting a rescue pit. 

I briefly contemplated getting a puppy because again some sources say one should start with a puppy to make sure the dog is more loyal to you and its thus more trainable. I don't quite agree with that brand of wisdom, frankly. _If_ I do adopt a pit in the next few years it'll be a rescue that gets along well with my Malinois. 

I've heard both that pits are very easy to train and that they're very difficult to train. I would imagine the former would be more true, because you'd want a controllable dog, especially one with that amount of physical strength. This is again logic based thinking. Strong dog = desire for controllability. An uncontrollable dog with that amount of brute power could really ruin the day of his handler. 

I'm sure volunteering at a Pit rescue at my next duty station where I'll probably have extended time in garrison would be helpful for increasing my knowledge of the breed. 

I've heard the term Pitbull can refer to the American Pitbull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terriers predominantly, but in legal terms can refer to such diverse breeds as the Boerbel, Dogo Argentino and Cane Corso among others. (This I know because a buddy of mine had to find housing off post at FT Riley because he had a Cane Corso and it was deemed a 'pitbull' by housing authority.) Thankfully my friend had enough money to get his own place out off post and was planning to do so anyway, but the post's BSL hastened his decision.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> I'm not quite so familiar with a Scott Type or Johnson Type APBT breed. But I never quite looked into lineage as I'm more interested in adopting a rescue pit.
> 
> I briefly contemplated getting a puppy because again some sources say one should start with a puppy to make sure the dog is more loyal to you and its thus more trainable. I don't quite agree with that brand of wisdom, frankly. _If_ I do adopt a pit in the next few years it'll be a rescue that gets along well with my Malinois.
> 
> ...


Scott and Johnson are American bulldog strains 

I have found out of all 3 of my dogs my APBT has been the easiest to train..she is always eager to do what every (as long as food is evolved )....her being strong only means she must be trained...its easy to ignore when a little 16lb dog is pulling at the leash or jumps up on you at the door....its another thing to have a 50lb dog do it 

You will find there are a few "camps" on what makes a Pit bull....some will say the only "Pit bull" is the American Pit Bull Terrier because its the only one with Pit in the name.....some say Pit bull is a lose term to describe a multitude of "bully breeds"....APBT/AST/SBT/EBT etc....


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

Whoops. Didn't realized I'd made a mistake about the AB versus APBT thing. My mistake.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

LOL....I know, its a ton of info....sometimes I get all turned around too...


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> I'm not quite so familiar with a Scott Type or Johnson Type APBT breed. But I never quite looked into lineage as I'm more interested in adopting a rescue pit.


They are ABs sorry for the confusion. I was using that as a comparison. They are different types but still considered the same breed. The same is true of the AST and APBT. Of course in either case if people so wished they could chose to split them and breed them as completely different breeds. The UKC still considers AST to be APBT and registers them as such. They can be bred together, just as both types of ABs are bred together. Those ABs are called hybrid types but it is more to describe that that the types/lines have been crossed rather then they are actually a cross breed of dog. 



> I briefly contemplated getting a puppy because again some sources say one should start with a puppy to make sure the dog is more loyal to you and its thus more trainable. I don't quite agree with that brand of wisdom, frankly. _If_ I do adopt a pit in the next few years it'll be a rescue that gets along well with my Malinois.


No that isn't true at all. My older dogs are no more a pain then puppies I've got, it is all just depending on the dog and not so much the age they were when I got them. Besides I don't think it would make the dog more loyal to you. Sometimes they do bond very close to their family and wouldn't be happy away from them. Most adjust just fine though without any issue.



> I've heard both that pits are very easy to train and that they're very difficult to train. I would imagine the former would be more true, because you'd want a controllable dog, especially one with that amount of physical strength. This is again logic based thinking. Strong dog = desire for controllability. An uncontrollable dog with that amount of brute power could really ruin the day of his handler.


They are very easy to train. Willingness to learn and please make for a dog that easily trains and obeys. Another reason why I don't see getting an older dog as bad. I've trained older dogs in a very short time, they learned quick and do as I say. Even within a couple of days already behaving different and continued on that same path. Within weeks you could have a different dog. It doesn't mean it will always be easy or that a dog you rescue won't have a specific issue that requires more time to work on. I think that if a child can train and control a Pit Bull it isn't terribly difficult, which is why I wonder how come so many people have dogs that go so terribly wrong. Most seems like they are just plain irresponsible to begin with.

A dogs strength or absence there of does not dictate how easy or difficult they are to train. How easy/difficult a dog is to train can be based on a few factors including how quickly they learn, biddability, ability to focus, how independence level.

If I have a 130lbs muscular, strong dog that learns what I want very fast and bends at my every whim they are not hard to train nor to control. (of which are 2 related but separate parts training and actually controlling) If I have a 20lbs dog, that is independent, stubborn and does not readily do as I wish they are not as easy to control nor are they so easy to get the end product of training. Especially if it may take more repetitions for them to even understand what it is that I want, though in some cases they might understand what I want they just don't care to do it. 

How easy/difficult a dog is to train or control is not based on strength nor size. 

Some say I should not have my dogs, because I am a small woman. Yet my dogs are not causing issues and I've known men who were not small at all fail to control their Pits or larger dogs. Not only through training/lack there of but even physically controlling the dog. As some say no matter how well trained the dog it is still an animal that can go against your wishes. True but then I know how to stop my dogs, I can as well physically control them. Where some big men fail at even doing that, though they have more physically strength then I. In the end does little good for them.



> I'm sure volunteering at a Pit rescue at my next duty station where I'll probably have extended time in garrison would be helpful for increasing my knowledge of the breed.


That is great to hear. I bet you will enjoy it.



> I've heard the term Pitbull can refer to the American Pitbull Terrier and American Staffordshire Terriers predominantly, but in legal terms can refer to such diverse breeds as the Boerbel, Dogo Argentino and Cane Corso among others. (This I know because a buddy of mine had to find housing off post at FT Riley because he had a Cane Corso and it was deemed a 'pitbull' by housing authority.) Thankfully my friend had enough money to get his own place out off post and was planning to do so anyway, but the post's BSL hastened his decision.


The issue is that while Pit Bull is applied to specific breeds a lot of breeds are similar physically to a Pit, at least somewhat. Some BSL names breeds and mixes of those but also states any breed that has the appearance of a Pit shall be deemed one in the opinion of the authoritative body. So a Lab could be mistaken for a Pit, if they think it looks like a Pit, then it is a Pit in their opinion. 

There have actually been Lab, Boxer mix, American Bulldog all mistaken as a Pits under these laws and the owners have had to fight to prove their dogs are not Pits just because they have sturdy build, short coat and are muscular, ect. 

Most often BSL does not actually consider those breeds Pit Bulls (Corso, Malinois, ect are usually names separately in BSL if other breeds is what it is truly meaning to ban). When they state any dog that fits the *physical description* of a Pit is one it can incorporate many breeds. This is very dangerous, in UK where APBTs are banned but SBTs are not, many SBT have still been taken as "illegal pit bulls" since they are closely related they can look a lot alike.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

this is just an opinion based on personal experience of course..


but I think the reason people have such trouble with pits is that they are sensitive dogs. sensitive in the sense that they are eager to please, wildly exhuberant when they percieve they've done well and absolutely crestfallen when they think they have not been good..and that ties into whether or not an owner has been responsible.

for instance..I have a regular scheduale of when I take my dog out to play. Every time its that time and I pick up the leash she goes buckwild, dancing and jumping like "YES OMG YES WOOOHOOOO!!!" 

but if im late or for some reason can't take her to play at the regular time she is like "whaddido!? omg NOOOO!" with tail tucked she will slink off into the corner..and if the cat tries to engage she will act like a bully (no pun intended) towards her...or start nosing things or knock something over....or start running through her repotoire of tricks and commands....as if desperate to get my attention in whatever manner nessecary and acting like she's grouchy now because she didn't do well and didn't get to go play.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> but I think the reason people have such trouble with pits is that they are sensitive dogs. sensitive in the sense that they are eager to please, wildly exhuberant when they percieve they've done well and absolutely crestfallen when they think they have not been good..and that ties into whether or not an owner has been responsible.


That's good to hear. So in theory the oldest members of my family (my grandparents) could deal with a pit? 

My Malinois is equally as huge about soliciting play. But he tends to be more spontaneous about it. Usually he'll poke you with his snout whilst holding a tennis ball or similar toy. That's an irresistible cue to go out there and play. 

So the recommendation of getting a female, maybe slightly younger than my present dog when the time comes is a good idea? I'd say one with a mellow temperment and calm disposition that clicks with Ninja?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> That's good to hear. So in theory the oldest members of my family (my grandparents) could deal with a pit?
> 
> My Malinois is equally as huge about soliciting play. But he tends to be more spontaneous about it. Usually he'll poke you with his snout whilst holding a tennis ball or similar toy. That's an irresistible cue to go out there and play.
> 
> So the recommendation of getting a female, maybe slightly younger than my present dog when the time comes is a good idea? I'd say one with a mellow temperment and calm disposition that clicks with Ninja?


Do you see how the sensitivity thing can translate into trouble? 


I definatly think primarily looking for a female is a good idea. there seems to be a slightly increased possibility of aggression between dogs of the same sex. 

As for elderly people handling a pit...depends on the person and the particular dog. they ARE strong strong dogs...and if the dog goes into buckwild goofball mode, an elderly person might have issues. Children should NEVER be trusted to handle a pit without adult supervision IMO..they are very strong. but that really just generally goes for any larger/working breed.


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## MaddieTheDog (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm no breeder, but my dog is a pit/lab mix and is a joy. 
She gets very defensive at little children (same height, maybe a dominance thing) and at 2-3 adults I've seen (including my dad, whom she loves...) and I worry, so we dont let her near them-but otherwise very lovable. Used to be scared of strangers, now will go up and want to play. 

Yeah, I'm sure deep down on many of them, because they were trained to be aggressive in the past and by many now, they can have a defense attack in them....but, many, with the right training, will do fine. Now, pits from shelters, and there are a lot, usually have behavioral problems, and unless you know what you're doing, I wouldnt recommend it myself. I personally wouldnt because I wouldnt know how and I'm not very strong, so if I were to be walking one on a leash that's heavy and they went to attack, I may not be able to stop it. Maddie's 70 lbs and she'll get very excited and try to run to her daddy and I have a hard time walking her then. I can't pick her up, either.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

LoneRider said:


> That's good to hear. So in theory the oldest members of my family (my grandparents) could deal with a pit?


That is up to your grand parents and what they are like. Hard to determine someone's suitability without knowing them or much about them. Age is really not much of a factor, many senior people have Pits, some for decades and some for a shorter time. But not all people are cut out to handle them. Even if they are a younger person. They don't understand the responsibility or what you tell them could possibly happen until it does happen and if it is one of the bad scenarios it gets even worse because they freak out and panic.

If your grand parents are willing to learn about the breed and the responsibility that comes with it then in theory they should be able to handle it. 

They should know 
Never leave a Pit Bull unsupervised with another dog. 
Not to let the Pit run off leash or keep them contained in another manner for potty/outdoor time. If they are in a fence not to leave them unsupervised in the yard. 
How to use a breaking stick/separate a fight
How to prevent a fight (not always possible, I know, but at least how to the best of their ability)
Not to introduce your dog to random strange dogs

Those are just a few important things. 

I've been handling these dogs since I was a child and not had any problems. Now I'm still not a very big person. I still plan to have them when I'm old and gray too. Knowledge, experience, research all those are very important, equally important (and sometimes more important) then actual size/strength of the person.



> So the recommendation of getting a female, maybe slightly younger than my present dog when the time comes is a good idea? I'd say one with a mellow temperment and calm disposition that clicks with Ninja?


Same sex can get along swell, but it is widely recommended to get opposite because of the chance of same sex aggression.



MaddieTheDog said:


> I'm no breeder, but my dog is a pit/lab mix and is a joy.
> She gets very defensive at little children (same height, maybe a dominance thing) and at 2-3 adults I've seen (including my dad, whom she loves...) and I worry, so we dont let her near them-but otherwise very lovable. Used to be scared of strangers, now will go up and want to play.
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure deep down on many of them, because they were trained to be aggressive in the past and by many now, they can have a defense attack in them....but, many, with the right training, will do fine. Now, pits from shelters, and there are a lot, usually have behavioral problems, and unless you know what you're doing, I wouldnt recommend it myself. I personally wouldnt because I wouldnt know how and I'm not very strong, so if I were to be walking one on a leash that's heavy and they went to attack, I may not be able to stop it. Maddie's 70 lbs and she'll get very excited and try to run to her daddy and I have a hard time walking her then. I can't pick her up, either.


Where did you get your dog?

Many Pits in shelters do have problems and many of them don't. But the Pits with problems doesn't mean all of them are aggression problems. Finding a dog in a shelter that suits the person might sometimes be a lot of work and take a long time but if they are careful and know what they are looking they should be ok. Getting a dog from a rescue or another source doesn't guarantee the dog won't have or develop aggression issues. So they need to be just as aware and know how to deal with it whichever way they go. I would recommend going to a shelter where the dogs are handled more and they do temperament testing. That helps to an extent to know what you are dealing with.

If you can hold your 70lbs dog I think you'd be ok with a Pit. Sure she doesn't want to attack instead is excited in a friendly matter but keeping control no matter the reason why the dog is pulling and acting up is still the same. Stopping an actual attack or fight is also more about skills then strength (though that helps). Even strong people may fail there or not be able to get it stopped quickly.


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## MaddieTheDog (Jun 3, 2009)

Spicy- I got my dog, a PIT mix from a shelter. I was saying what you said-if you know how to take care and train an aggressive dog/behavioral problem dog, then go ahead, if not, don't get that kind of dog until you build your way up.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Ok I was a little confused. When you said "I personally wouldnt because I wouldnt know how and I'm not very strong" I was thinking you wouldn't want to get a dog from a shelter, or more specifically a Pit. If you are saying without knowing what you are doing then that I think is a very good suggestion indeed. It was just how it is worded that confuse me. I think the OP would possibly make a good owner if they keep on the same road. Do you put pics of Maddie in the photos section? She is a very cute dog herself.


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## LoneRider (Jul 6, 2009)

> That is up to your grand parents and what they are like. Hard to determine someone's suitability without knowing them or much about them. Age is really not much of a factor, many senior people have Pits, some for decades and some for a shorter time. But not all people are cut out to handle them. Even if they are a younger person. They don't understand the responsibility or what you tell them could possibly happen until it does happen and if it is one of the bad scenarios it gets even worse because they freak out and panic.


Well, as far as dog handling in general both my grandparents grew up on farms in the Phillippines where dogs are rather common. Sometimes they're working animals or half-ferals that are tolerated and often fed on the land. They handle my malinois well enough, and they've got my uncles and parents nearby to assist. I'd have to brief them exactly what to expect from a pit and train my pit to accept them as his other leadership too. 



> It was just how it is worded that confuse me. I think the OP would possibly make a good owner if they keep on the same road.


Well. I intend to make sure any dog, regardless of size or breed, is not only tractable but gets on amicably with his or her future housemates before being adopted into the family.

Interestingly enough I've seen pits/pit crosses in the Phillippines too. They are most likely descendents of dogs belonging to American soldiers stationed there from the 1890s all the way till the last US troops at various installations left in the mid-nineties. Local Filipino breeders accquired their own stock for various reasons. Sadly for dog fighting at times, but also they've bred quite a few family pets out of them too. These are mostly offhanded observations, however.

I've seen/heard of pit crosses on other Pacific islands as well. Hawaii's got quite a few of them.


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