# Orijen opinion from the vet



## Greater Swiss

We took Caeda to the vet again since she is still somewhat off of her food and her vaginosis is getting worse. We mentioned the attempted switch to Orijen.....well....the vet had some opinions, and I kind of agree. 
First off, regarding switching away from SD, she said "I can understand why you want to" so without insulting the product they sell she seemed to absolutely approve of that choice. 
The Orijen though she said is not a great idea. She said she has never seen one food be traced as the cause of so many dogs coming in for problems like persistent diarrhea (as in years, not days), itching and skin problems, a plethora of digestive issues allergies and sensitivities etc. The super high protein can cause problems. Interesting! I don't see why she would be making this up, she certainly isn't pushing us to SD. 
The upshot of her explanation was that dogs have been domesticated, they no longer eat like wolves, they do need some grains (except of course allergic dogs). She referred to the "wolf-food" fad of dog diets. Meat is absolutely important, and good quality meat, but meat only isn't the best way to go. 
I know this is a bit of a hot topic at least as far as opinions on the evils of SD. I'm just curious about some input and would love some suggestions on quality foods that are a little bit more balanced with some grains. Thoughts anyone?


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## Niraya

I fed Bella Holistic Select (runs about the same price range as Blue Buffalo). Having said that - because of the price I took her off of Holistic Select and put her on 4Health (another 4 star rated food by dogfoodadvisor.com). The price range is much better - and with her having a sensitive stomach - Holistic Select and 4Health have been wonderful for her.


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## sassafras

In theory I don't have anything against it, but personally Pip and Maisy didn't do that great on Orijen (I've never fed it to Squash). I use Acana for training treats at home and don't seem to have a problem with it, but they're not getting very large quantities of it.


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## Crantastic

Casper's coat was SO glossy on Orijen, and he didn't have any digestive issues or anything. He ended up with a urinary tract infection, though (I think that can happen if dogs eat a lot of protein but don't drink enough water? It's a struggle getting him to drink enough). I have him on Acana's grain-free line now, which is still an excellent food but with lower protein (around 30%, compared to Orijen's 40ish%). I've also been making sure he gets more water, and he's been completely fine on the Acana.


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## flipgirl

For one, maybe her clinic is in an area where many people feed Orijen. Two, it depends on the dog but I think she does have a point witvh respect to dogs not being in the wild. Dogs in the wild need to be able to reproduce quickly to ensure survival so they need high levels of protein. Unless your dogs are in high energy activities like agility or some other activity, high levels of protein are not needed. The excess gets excreted. High protein also dehydration so more water is required. 

There is something to the idea that feeding your dog 'as nature intended' is a fad which is now abundant in marketing strategies like that of blue buffalo's. Our domesticated dogs have evolved to eat grains and such and so maybe grains aren't that bad. I think, however, the problem comes when pet food companies use grain as substitutes for quality protein, like SD and other similar companies. I can see where your vet is coming from but ask her to explain why corn and soy and their derivatives are so predominant in SD foods. I was talking to one of the vets at the clinic where I work about this and he said corn has a medical purpose such as providing protein where a high level is not desired, such as a reduced protein diet fed to dogs and cats with kidney disease. He said that rice is included as well to provide all the essential amino acids. I guess I can accept that somewhat for an rx food but not for maintenance diets. Maybe a switch from Orijen is called for but not to SD! Just my two cents...


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## Porphyria

Orijen has great ingredients and a lot of dogs do really well on it, but I agree that the protein may simply be too much for some dogs, mine included. When my dog was on a high protein grain free diet, he had elevated liver enzymes, and once I switched to a moderate protein diet, they went back down to normal. My dog has never drunk a lot of water, and I suspect that so much protein in such a dry package (kibble) may put more strain on the liver and kidneys for some dogs. In addition to feeding a lower protein food, I have recently started adding water to his meals about half the time, mixing in a little canned food every now and then, and giving him the occasional raw egg, just to give him more moisture in his diet. 

Since switching from high protein grain free foods, I have been feeding a rotation diet of the various Fromm Four Star formulas (so far he has had their whitefish and chicken formulas, and there is a bag of salmon in the pantry to try next). He has done really well on the Fromm; he loves the taste, his digestion is really good, and his fur is soft and silky. As well as he has done on Fromm, I am considering of working some other brands into the rotation, just for variety. Ones I'm considering now are Blue Buffalo, Canine Caviar, 4Health, and Lotus. I do like a lot of things about Champion, the company that makes Orijen, and I recently heard that they will be making their grain inclusive line of Acana available in the U.S. soon, so that is also something I might work into the mix.

While I am no longer sold on high protein grain free foods, I do still believe it is important to avoid foods with byproducts and fillers. I also like to avoid brands that are subsidiaries of huge companies like P&G, Diamond, Nestle, etc. That's just a personal preference of mine. 

I understand wanting to feed grain free, especially for dogs with allergies. I might even incorporate some of the lower protein grain free foods (like Fromm's Surf and Turf) into my feeding schedule. But I think that nutritious grains like brown rice, oatmeal or millet can be just as good if not better than the white potatoes and tapioca that grain free foods use as binders.


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## sassafras

flipgirl said:


> There is something to the idea that feeding your dog 'as nature intended' is a fad...


I agree completely. Actually I find that whole argument irritating. There is hardly a more unnatural animal on the planet than dogs at this point other than maybe agricultural animals. There's no way I'm buying that changing their form in so many varied ways doesn't also change aspects of their digestion, physiology, etc. as well.


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## Jacksons Mom

Porphyria said:


> Orijen has great ingredients and a lot of dogs do really well on it, but I agree that the protein may simply be too much for some dogs, mine included. When my dog was on a high protein grain free diet, he had elevated liver enzymes, and once I switched to a moderate protein diet, they went back down to normal. My dog has never drunk a lot of water, and I suspect that so much protein in such a dry package (kibble) may put more strain on the liver and kidneys for some dogs. In addition to feeding a lower protein food, I have recently started adding water to his meals about half the time, mixing in a little canned food every now and then, and giving him the occasional raw egg, just to give him more moisture in his diet.
> 
> Since switching from high protein grain free foods, I have been feeding a rotation diet of the various Fromm Four Star formulas (so far he has had their whitefish and chicken formulas, and there is a bag of salmon in the pantry to try next). He has done really well on the Fromm; he loves the taste, his digestion is really good, and his fur is soft and silky. As well as he has done on Fromm, I am considering of working some other brands into the rotation, just for variety. Ones I'm considering now are Blue Buffalo, Canine Caviar, 4Health, and Lotus. I do like a lot of things about Champion, the company that makes Orijen, and I recently heard that they will be making their grain inclusive line of Acana available in the U.S. soon, so that is also something I might work into the mix.
> 
> While I am no longer sold on high protein grain free foods, I do still believe it is important to avoid foods with byproducts and fillers. I also like to avoid brands that are subsidiaries of huge companies like P&G, Diamond, Nestle, etc. That's just a personal preference of mine.
> 
> I understand wanting to feed grain free, especially for dogs with allergies. I might even incorporate some of the lower protein grain free foods (like Fromm's Surf and Turf) into my feeding schedule. But I think that nutritious grains like brown rice, oatmeal or millet can be just as good if not better than the white potatoes and tapioca that grain free foods use as binders.


This is kind of where I am at.

Jackson did well on Acana, and on Orijen Regional Red for one bag, but then they changed formulas and his stool was never where I liked it on the Orijen. Then on the regular Adult, he got really gassy... and this is a dog who NEVER got gassy. I like Champion but he just didn't do well on Orijen (it wasn't, like, explosive diarrhea or anything, but still).

He actually did best on TOTW Sierra. He had a scare about a month ago where the vet was pretty sure he had pancreatitis. He was on Purina RX food for about 2 1/2 weeks or so but, not being happy with that, I rotated him onto Castor & Pollux Organix Weight Mgt (for the lower fat levels) and he's been doing _great_ on it. It does have some grains. I don't believe ALL grains are bad.


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## flipgirl

For one, maybe her clinic is in an area where many people feed Orijen. Two, it depends on the dog but I think she does have a point witvh respect to dogs not being in the wild. Dogs in the wild need to be able to reproduce quickly to ensure survival so they need high levels of protein. Unless your dogs are in high energy activities like agility or some other activity, high levels of protein are not needed. The excess gets excreted. High protein also dehydration so more water is required. 

There is something to the idea that feeding your dog 'as nature intended' is a fad which is now abundant in marketing strategies like that of blue buffalo's. Our domesticated dogs have evolved to eat grains and such and so maybe grains aren't that bad. I think, however, the problem comes when pet food companies use grain as substitutes for quality protein, like SD and other similar companies. I can see where your vet is coming from but ask her to explain why corn and soy and their derivatives are so predominant in SD foods. I was talking to one of the vets at the clinic where I work about this and he said corn has a medical purpose such as providing protein where a high level is not desired, such as a reduced protein diet fed to dogs and cats with kidney disease. He said that rice is included as well to provide all the essential amino acids. I guess I can accept that somewhat for an rx food but not for maintenance diets. Maybe a switch from Orijen is called for but not to SD! Just my two cents...


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## abi88

Sounds like a bunch of b*!!s#*! to me from someone who has bought into what the big pet food companies want us all to think(and what they have trained her to say and believe.) It also sounds like the vet needs to read The White Paper. Feeding dogs, or ANY carnivore, how they SHOULD be fed is NOT a fad if done correctly, HOWEVER I agree that all of the "natural" krapple that has come out BECAUSE of us having fed our poor pet carnivores improperly for the past 200-ish years wrongly IS a fad.


Oh and as for Orijen.....well TONS of people who's dogs "cant" eat Orijen is because of human error(ie. feeding too much, either food and/or treats!!)


Oh and this is written by someone who KNOWS the truth that dogs, cats and ferrets are CARNIVORES, NOT omnivores....over the past 200 years(or even 6000)there is NO way for them to suddenly be something that they are not.


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## Jacksons Mom

Actually, my dog was not over fed on Orijen. I don't think everyone should worship Orijen like it's the only food you can feed and it's just not going to work for some dogs. My 16lb dog was recommended to eat 1 cup per day on the bag but he ate under 1/2 cup. He's also very active and I did not want to feed him less than 1/2 cup per day in order for him to not have soft or runny poop.

I like Champion. I think it's fantastic that Orijen works for a lot of dogs. Acana worked out fine for us.  Orijen didn't (well, it did at one point, until they changed the formula).


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## abi88

Jacksons Mom said:


> Actually, my dog was not over fed on Orijen. I don't think everyone should worship Orijen like it's the only food you can feed and it's just not going to work for some dogs. My 16lb dog was recommended to eat 1 cup per day on the bag but he ate under 1/2 cup. He's also very active and I did not want to feed him less than 1/2 cup per day in order for him to not have soft or runny poop.
> 
> I like Champion. I think it's fantastic that Orijen works for a lot of dogs. Acana worked out fine for us.  Orijen didn't (well, it did at one point, until they changed the formula).


I actually fed Acana over Orijen when we fed Brody from a bag, so I TOTALLY understand what you are saying!:wink:
And dont you HATE when formulas change?!?

(I guess that is my #1 reason why, in my controlling, Leo nature, I LOVE how I feed now...because I control every aspect of it!LOL)


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## sassafras

Jacksons Mom said:


> I don't think everyone should worship Orijen like it's the only food you can feed and it's just not going to work for some dogs.


Yea blind allegiance to any one diet isn't good, and the company line is the company line no matter which company it comes from - none of them are impartial. Dogs are individuals, and just like people some will do better on this or that.


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## abi88

sassafras said:


> Yea blind allegiance to any one diet isn't good, and the company line is the company line no matter which company it comes from - none of them are impartial. Dogs are individuals, and just like people some will do better on this or that.



TOTALLY agree.....that is why I LOVE not having to buy from a specific company at all!!


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## Greater Swiss

flipgirl said:


> Maybe a switch from Orijen is called for but not to SD! Just my two cents...


The rest of your post is great info, but just to clarify....she started on SD (yup, our bad, sort of), we were not pressured into this at the vet, we just thought it would be a good food and the problems started when trying to switch to Orijen....so its back to SD to at least get her back to eating normally. Seriously considering ACANA, other swissy owners have told us good things (and some have also had problems with Orijen). 


abi88 said:


> Sounds like a bunch of b*!!s#*! to me from someone who has bought into what the big pet food companies want us all to think(and what they have trained her to say and believe.) It also sounds like the vet needs to read The White Paper. Feeding dogs, or ANY carnivore, how they SHOULD be fed is NOT a fad if done correctly, HOWEVER I agree that all of the "natural" krapple that has come out BECAUSE of us having fed our poor pet carnivores improperly for the past 200-ish years wrongly IS a fad.
> 
> 
> Oh and as for Orijen.....well TONS of people who's dogs "cant" eat Orijen is because of human error(ie. feeding too much, either food and/or treats!!)
> 
> 
> Oh and this is written by someone who KNOWS the truth that dogs, cats and ferrets are CARNIVORES, NOT omnivores....over the past 200 years(or even 6000)there is NO way for them to suddenly be something that they are not.


Uh huh....
Well, if the vet was quoting off things that she was told or "trained to believe" she would have been pushing SD since her office sells it (but not Orijen, or any other product actually). She did not push SD, but through her own experience observed a predominance problems from owners of dogs on Orijen. 
Ssome clarification on how you are "someone who KNOWS the truth" instead of just informing us all that it is b*&!! would have been more persuasive. The White Paper I'm sure can be refuted by other papers out there. So much is skewed that I would be seriously curious as to whether there is any serious peer reviewed information out there rather than information put out by a particular company (I may look for some actually....). The source of the information is just as important (or more so) than the info itself. 

So, the fact that Caeda is not tolerating Orijen well is my fault for not feeding treats you might want to ask me first about what her normal food/treat regime is. Thanks for the unsolicited opinion on the mistakes that I have been apparently making. 

I'm just looking for some good info/experiences regarding digestive or other issues other owners may have experienced with Orijen, and those who have given this I sincerely appreciate, any more and I'd love to hear. Especially those who have had experiences with ACANA since this is one brand we are interested in.


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## kafkabeetle

Greater Swiss said:


> Ssome clarification on how you are "someone who KNOWS the truth" instead of just informing us all that it is b*&!! would have been more persuasive. The White Paper I'm sure can be refuted by other papers out there. So much is skewed that I would be seriously curious as to whether there is any serious peer reviewed information out there rather than information put out by a particular company (I may look for some actually....). The source of the information is just as important (or more so) than the info itself.


Interestingly, the White Papers are quite clearly put out by Orijen and Champion pet foods. Not saying they don't contain useful information, but yeah...I agree that they are most certainly biased.


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## flipgirl

Greater Swiss said:


> The rest of your post is great info, but just to clarify....she started on SD (yup, our bad, sort of), we were not pressured into this at the vet, we just thought it would be a good food and the problems started when trying to switch to Orijen....so its back to SD to at least get her back to eating normally. Seriously considering ACANA, other swissy owners have told us good things (and some have also had problems with Orijen).
> 
> huh....
> Well, if the vet was quoting off things that she was told or "trained to believe" she would have been pushing SD since her office sells it (but not Orijen, or any other product actually). She did not push SD, but through her own experience observed a predominance problems from owners of dogs on Orijen.
> Ssome clarification on how you are "someone who KNOWS the truth" instead of just informing us all that it is b*&!! would have been more persuasive. The White Paper I'm sure can be refuted by other papers out there. So much is skewed that I would be seriously curious as to whether there is any serious peer reviewed information out there rather than information put out by a particular company (I may look for some actually....). The source of the information is just as important (or more so) than the info itself.
> 
> So, the fact that Caeda is not tolerating Orijen well is my fault for not feeding treats you might want to ask me first about what her normal food/treat regime is. Thanks for the unsolicited opinion on the mistakes that I have been apparently making.


With respect to the first paragraph, point well taken. 

To abi88, not every Orijen feeder over feeds their pet. Not every dog will do well on Orijen or any other dog food. Finding a food that suits your dog is trial and error. Aren't you doing the same kind of pushing that some vets do of SD? 

Feeding kibble is more than a fad, it's feeding method. I'm glad you're happy with how you feed your dog just as I am happy with homecooking my dog's meals but not everyone is. This idea of feeding as nature intended is a marketing thing. If Orijen is feeding as nature intended, it wouldn't be kibble. Many companies are touting their foods as feeding as nature intended but do you think their intentions are profit-oriented or pet-oriented? Feeding raw or the grain-free foods is relatively new. Not new for some but it has become more popular due to marketing. I'm not saying these diets are bad, just a new trend that the pet food industry has pounced on. 

I have always been on the fence about grains. My dog has eaten kibble, grain-free raw and now homecooked 'muffins' which include grains like barley. She thankfully has done well on all so maybe she is not a good example. However, as Jackson's mom said (I think it was Jackson's mom) there are good grains and bad ones. The bad ones include wheat and corn (though some may argue). I think you feedbwhat you're comfortable feeding. 

OP, have you considered Nature's Variety? They have just come out with limited ingredients formulas FYI. But their regular formulas are good too. Just in case Acana doesn't work out. 

BTW, Caeda is beautiful!


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## Michiyo-Fir

There's a holistic vet here that really recommends Orijen as long as the dogs drink a lot of water.

It's an excellent food in my opinion, I've heard much less people complaining about issues like diarrhea, dry coat, itchiness with Orijen than something like Dog Chow or Beneful.

All of our dogs have done extraordinarily well on it and if you ask people on this forum, a lot of people will tell you their dogs do well on it. I guess for a lot of dogs it's just too rich but I haven't heard of allergy problems with it....hmm.

Edit: I just wanted to add our dogs eat a variety of different grain free, medium to high protein foods, not just Orijen. Just wanted to say though, we do have good experiences with Orijen in this household but our dogs can eat almost anything...


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## hast

Greater Swiss said:


> <snip>
> The super high protein can cause problems. Interesting! I don't see why she would be making this up, she certainly isn't pushing us to SD.
> The upshot of her explanation was that dogs have been domesticated, they no longer eat like wolves, they do need some grains (except of course allergic dogs). She referred to the "wolf-food" fad of dog diets. Meat is absolutely important, and good quality meat, but meat only isn't the best way to go.
> I know this is a bit of a hot topic at least as far as opinions on the evils of SD. I'm just curious about some input and would love some suggestions on quality foods that are a little bit more balanced with some grains. Thoughts anyone?


Interesting. My vet says that she's seen more dogs who has gone over to Orijen do well than not. And she said it only because we sometimes train together and she made a comment on how nice Mandy's coat looked and asked about her ears (that tended to get 'gunky' on other commercial foods. Mandy can't have grains though ... and more than her coat get's listless if she does.



sassafras said:


> Yea blind allegiance to any one diet isn't good, and the company line is the company line no matter which company it comes from - none of them are impartial. Dogs are individuals, and just like people some will do better on this or that.


Exactly! As long as we don't give them the equivalent to Mc Donalds on an every day basis, we need to look at the individual more than what other dogs do good on.


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## lisanicole

I need some help. I had my 1 1/2 year old cocker spaniel on Orijen since we got him at 8 weeks. First puppy formula and then when he turned 10 months we changed to 6 fish and Regional Red (rotating every other 5 pound bag). Most of the time he had loose stools and itching. We recently had him tested for allergies and he came up negative. Vet recommended we switch his food to Hills Prescription Diet because of the itching, loose stools and most importantly his inner ear canal was closing due to inflamation. I did not want him on Hills diet so I went to our pet store. I explained what was going on and they seemed to think Orijen may be too rich and full of protein for our guy. They recommended Pure Vita (grain free). We just started him on that. Is that a good food? What other suggestions do you guys have for a lower protein food? Thanks.


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## Kathyy

Itching hasn't anything to do with protein, why does the vet say that? Ask him. The only nutrient I am aware of that can cause itching is excessive niacin which is a B vitamin. Loose stools is overfeeding the dog or feeding food the dog is intolerant to. Sassy especially taught me how all that works. If I increased her feed because I thought she was skinny she pooped out the excess food. I went back to the original amount and she was just fine but didn't gain weight! Next she needed more meals per day - she oh so daintily upchucked about 1/3 of each meal for a couple times. I am SO intelligent and added another meal a day - her tummy was no longer able to hold that much food. I was able to increase her feed and feed more often and she gained weight. This is much as a young puppy is fed, lots of small meals to get the nutrition needed. While I wouldn't feed Orijen even if I would feed kibble as I am not a fan of all the flowers and herbs it contains, it has less waste in it and the dog generally needs very little. When I dehydrate food it loses so much bulk. It is difficult to feed that small amount of food to my buddy, I still struggle with it on his raw diet.

As to how much protein is important. It varies. Sassy got and needed about 50% more protein as an ill geriatric dog as she did as a healthy adult to maintain a good muscle mass. Max needs about double the protein he got in a 'good' kibble to maintain his muscle mass at a good level. As a senior dog he gained 15% of his weight in muscle and as a consequence is stronger now than as a 5 year old dog. On the level of protein Sassy got at age 15 she would have looked more like a pit bull than a vizsla at age 5 I suspect.


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## flipgirl

Although I'm not a huge fan, how about Taste of the Wild? It's protein level isn't crazy high but it's still grain-free. Holistic Selects is also good, they have different favours. Wellness also has their formulas plus the Simple Solutions line for dogs with allergies or sensitivities. Wellness has some grains but I think it'd be worth a try.


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## TheBearCat

I think Orijen is an excellent food. It really came down to this brand and TOTW, when I was making a decision to switch Andy's food. (We feed SD at the shelter)
I ultimately went with TOTW due to the variety of animal proteins and lower protein content. As I said, I think Orijen is excellent, but like most foods, it doesn't work for every dog, and that's ok. 
I do, however, disagree that dogs _need_ grains. I don't think all grains are bad and have given Andy treats with some grains-usually at the far end of the ingredient list-but he wouldn't suffer if he never had a grain again. One of the reasons I switch him from S/D was all that corn which aggravated his skin allergies.


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## Greater Swiss

Thanks flipgirl  I'm definitely going to look into Nature's Variety. We've been pretty stuck on the "Large Breed Puppy", but are learning that the protein and calcium phospherous ratios are just as important, so we aren't stuck on large breed. We are preferring though to find a food that is available in town, since we are both slightly disorganized and are VERY likely to forget to order it online on time and end up running out *smacks forehead*
As for the protein "causing" itchiness, the way she described it was that it caused some overall sensitivity with the system being in somewhat "overdrive" because of the protein (I can't remember the exact wording, I know it made more sense than what I'm explaining lol). 
No matter what we get we want to get a moderate protein amount but with high quality meat based protein. Having a hard time finding good information that isn't just based on the company's info OR people who might be influenced by any particular trend etc. This is a big reason I'm on here asking for information....get a bit of a consensus and anecdotal information from a multitude and see if there is any consensus 
Sorry about the rant earlier, but especially after university I get really irked when people say they KNOW something and represent as fact without any real backup other than an assertion of expertise. It didn't help feeling like there was a bit of an accusation that I'm feeding her badly when I'm obviously trying to do the opposite. Perhaps its just the internet making everything sound worse. As for explaining the SD I just wanted to clarify, I don't think I'd mentioned that she started on that, we made our initial mistake and we are trying to fix it and just can't quite seem to get it right


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## StellaLucyDesi

Imo Orijen is a good food, but it did not work for my dogs. I fed Orijen when it first became available (the old formula). I had always had to use canned toppers with other dry foods BUT even my pickiest dogs loved Orijen by itself. So I just fed it dry. Now, I didn't notice that Stella and Lucy weren't very good water drinkers. So after awhile, they contracted utis with crystals. I don't blame the food, but I couldn't use it anymore. They have been on many other foods since then and seem to be fine. I have used kibble with cans and some have had protein percentages up to 34%....I like to stick around 26-28% for my dogs. For about the past two months they have been eating Nature's Variety and Primal premade raw. I do use some kibble for treats every now and then (because they sometimes need to be boarded and I don't want to send raw). Lately, I have been using Halo and Now! kibble. They seem to be doing the best they have ever done. I think Stella and Lucy (well Hazel, too) are benefitting from the moisture in the raw food. Stella's stains are gone (she had eye and mouth). I have used Acana in the past and might use it as one of their kibble "treats", but probably not. Champion is a good company and I like their philosophy, but I just don't think it works for my dogs. I am a firm believer in you have to do what's right for the individual dog and not every food works for every dog. In fact, eventhough I feed the NV premade raw, my dogs don't do that great with NV's kibble. They do fine with their can food, though. 

Oh, btw, here is a great site for dog food reviews/ratings. It is impartial, imho. www.dogfoodadvisor.com


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## Daenerys

Hmm, Blue Wilderness has 36% min protein...guess I will start adding some water to my dogs food! I always give canned with my papillon, but not with my husky.


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## Michiyo-Fir

Acana is also amazing. Same company as Orijen, but less protein, usually about 32%. That's what I'm feeding now to Nia. It's also grain free and works great but just makes me feel a bit better about the protein content. Our other 2 are still on Orijen for now.


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## Porphyria

Daenerys said:


> Hmm, Blue Wilderness has 36% min protein...guess I will start adding some water to my dogs food! I always give canned with my papillon, but not with my husky.


Just a word of caution; I don't know if bloat is a concern for huskies but BB Wilderness is preserved with citric acid and there have been some reports that adding water to food preserved with citric acid can increase the risk of bloat. I stopped adding water to my mom's collie's BB Wilderness for that reason.


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## katielou

I think a lot of people have problems with orijen because they step up hugely.

If you feed a child that has eaten rice for all its life a steak slap up dinner i would expect that child to be ill.

Same as if you feed a dog essentially corn all his life and then step up to something so rich in real ingredients i would expect that dog to be ill.

What works for some won't work for others. Its all about trial and error.


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## InkedMarie

I have used two of the Orijens (the adult & fish), also used a couple of the Acana (same company as Orijen). I had excellent results. No diarrhea, good firm stools, no gas, dogs looked great. I switched only because of the cost. I will use both again in the future, I just can't feed it exclusively, which isn't good anyway.
To Greater Swiss, there are so many good quality grainfree foods out there. Some are higher priced, some not so bad. I am using the new Natures Variety Instinct limited ingredient turkey with frozen raw for Boone. We are planning, in the future, of trying Earthborn grainfree as well. Natural Balance makes many many foods, a good amount of them are grainfree. The proteins are generally in the low 20's but their new Alpha ones are 26%. Wellness Core has three grainfrees: fish, adult and reduced fat. I believe the proteins are in the 30's.


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## Sarayu14

flipgirl said:


> Our domesticated dogs have evolved to eat grains


No, our domesticated dogs (and cats for that matter) have not and will never evolve to eat grains, especially the garbage grains that they put in most of the kibble on the shelves. This is an anatomy website that shows both feline and canine small and large intestines. First link is to small intestines, second link is to the large intestines of a cat. 

http://www.onemedicine.tuskegee.edu/DigestiveSystem/Small_Instestine/Intest_Canine.html

http://www.onemedicine.tuskegee.edu/DigestiveSystem/Large_Intestine/LIntest_Feline.html

http://www.onemedicine.tuskegee.edu/DigestiveSystem/Large_Intestine/LIntest_Equine.html this one is a horse (something that has evolved to eat grain)

sorry for the length.


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## flipgirl

Sarayu14 said:


> No, our domesticated dogs (and cats for that matter) have not and will never evolve to eat grains, especially the garbage grains that they put in most of the kibble on the shelves.


I agree that for cats, grains is not an option. But dogs have evolved much more than cats and are more adaptable. While they are carnivores, they are not obligate carnivores, and theoretically, domesticated themselves by eating the scraps of humans, which included grains, fruit and veggies. 


If you make a statement like this then explain how the grains put in kibble differs from other grains. are you saying that some grains are better than others for dogs?


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## Sarayu14

No I am saying that dogs are carnivores and not omnivores (proof being in the digestive tract). The digestive tract of a herbivore or omnivore is a lot longer than that of a carnivore. I will say that while my two do eat grass on occasion they promptly throw it up. I know that this is a link to a different forum but you wanted more info and this person did a fantastic job at presenting it.

I will say right now that I am not very good with words, I have my feelings and opinions on different topics but I have extreme difficulties expressing myself so I do research and gather as much knowledge that I can

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=141957&sid=cd856e85887ff2fa21a40c7412c03592


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## Questdriven

Orijen is too "rich" for some dogs. Some dogs do great on it, others need to be switched to another brand. That's my observation based on feedback from other people anyway.

My thoughts are that while dogs are different from wolves in many ways now, their digestive system has not changed. They still have a carnivore's digestive tract. So meat-based is best, but no one diet is going to work for every single dog. Because of things like allergies and the like. There are diets that dogs in general do best on, but again not every dog is going to do best on that diet just because most do.
It is also my opinion that dogs do not need fruits, veggies, or grains. (Well, it's needed in commercial dog food to achieve a balance for a couple of reasons--cost and because puting meat, bones, and organ into a dry or even wet food just wouldn't work because they lose some nutrients when cooked, but no in a homemade diet.) While dogs can survive and do pretty well on plant-based foods, this is because they are adaptable. (My dad shared something with me that he had read about lions at a zoo in Israel surviving for three years on nothing but grain due to food shortage. But no one argues that lions are omnivores.) I've read about wolves in wolf sanctuaries/zoos being fed dog food and apparently doing fine. (I can probably find a link for that one if asked.)


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## HerdersForMe

Questdriven said:


> It is also my opinion that dogs do not need fruits, veggies, or grains.


They most definitely do need fruits and veggies to acquire proper nutrients. Wild dogs do not live solely on meat sources. 

Also to those mentioning cats, a cats intestines are shorter than a dogs. Dogs have a much more adaptable digestive system. They can healthily digest fruits, veggies, and yes grains as well.


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## Questdriven

HerdersForMe said:


> They most definitely do need fruits and veggies to acquire proper nutrients. Wild dogs do not live solely on meat sources.
> 
> Also to those mentioning cats, a cats intestines are shorter than a dogs. Dogs have a much more adaptable digestive system. They can healthily digest fruits, veggies, and yes grains as well.


Just because they _do_ eat them in the wild does not mean that they _need_ it in their diet. Plant matter takes up like, what, 3% of their diet in the wild? Dogs will eat the strangest things, that are obviously not needed. Or good for them. Animals sometimes eat things simply because they like the taste, the texture, or sometimes just because food is scarce. They do not have this ability to only eat what they absolutely need anymore than humans do.
And yes they can digest them (to some extent, anyways), but I am unconvinced that it's best that they are included in the diet.
The whole "dogs are/are not omnivores" thing is a pretty big debate. Plenty of opinions on it.
Here's one: http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
(I will grant that there are omnivores with carnivore teeth, though. Take the fruit bat and the panda (which eats mostly plants) as examples.)


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## Sarayu14

HerdersForMe said:


> They most definitely do need fruits and veggies to acquire proper nutrients. Wild dogs do not live solely on meat sources.
> 
> Also to those mentioning cats, a cats intestines are shorter than a dogs. Dogs have a much more adaptable digestive system. They can healthily digest fruits, veggies, and yes grains as well.


Just a question, have you had to deal with the gases that come from a grain fed dog?  Silent but room clearing is one way to describe my experiences with them. lol


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## HerdersForMe

Sarayu14 said:


> Just a question, have you had to deal with the gases that come from a grain fed dog?  Silent but room clearing is one way to describe my experiences with them. lol


Haha we actually feed a grain free kibble. I find grain free kibble to be of a bit higher quality in general. I was more speaking on the front of fruits and vegetables. But to be honest the majority of domesticated dogs are fed diets with grains. These dogs are also in good health. 

Yes the majority of the dog's diet should be meat sources but there are important nutrients found in fruits and vegetables that won't be found in meat. So I feel it is good to include a variety of food sources.


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## Questdriven

Muscle meat aside, what can be found in veggies that is NOT in organs and bones, then?


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## Sarayu14

I have actually cut all fruit and veg from my girls diets and the gas is not there any more. Yes, when they go outside they do splurge on grass.


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## Abbylynn

Crantastic said:


> Casper's coat was SO glossy on Orijen, and he didn't have any digestive issues or anything. He ended up with a urinary tract infection, though (I think that can happen if dogs eat a lot of protein but don't drink enough water? It's a struggle getting him to drink enough). I have him on Acana's grain-free line now, which is still an excellent food but with lower protein (around 30%, compared to Orijen's 40ish%). I've also been making sure he gets more water, and he's been completely fine on the Acana.


 I too switched to 4Health three months ago. No problems with any of my three dogs except I needed to add fish oil for my Dobie/Rott for her coat according to the vet. It has a 26% protien level. For a 4 star food it has been good.
I also read somewhere that blueberries are a good source of antioxidants for our canine friends. But I also read somewhere that blueberries should be frozen first in order for better digestion? Anyone know about what I read?


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## Questdriven

Sarayu14 said:


> I have actually cut all fruit and veg from my girls diets and the gas is not there any more. Yes, when they go outside they do splurge on grass.


Mine likes to chew on grass, too. Can't tell if he actually eats it or not. He used to like to eat the inside of acorns all the time, nowadays he only does that a little bit. He loves peas, he gets them now and again as treats. Not very often, though.


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## HerdersForMe

In short fruits and vegetables are rich in fiber, anti-oxidants and cancer fighting agents, anti-aging agents, and vitamins and minerals. You could find a lot of these same things in meat, organs, and bones of course but not always in the same quantities or as concentrated. I feel the benefits of including some fruits and vegetables in your dog's diet are worth it. I take a multi-vitamin every day. It's not really natural or needed but I feel it is beneficial for my health so I do it. Just like dogs may very well have eaten 95% meat, organs and bones in the wild but they aren't in the wild anymore. There are things we can provide that are beneficial to them that wouldn't have been as accessible in the wild.


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## Questdriven

I'm not sure if you're familiar with a prey model raw diet or not (that is what I feed my dog), but in a raw diet in addition to being a source of calcium bone acts as fiber. (If my dog goes without a boneless meal for more than a day or two he gets the hershey squirts.) PMR is roughly 80% meat, 10% (or sometimes more) bone, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ. And I'd read the opposite, than organs like liver are higher in vitamins and minerals than veggies.
There is a version of raw that includes feeding vegetables, refered to as "BARF", Bones And Raw Food or Biologically Appropiate Raw Food. I don't know much about what percentages of meat, bone, organ, veggies, etc are recommended in that one, though.

And for now I've got to log off. Later, dude. xD


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## HerdersForMe

Yea I was aware of that which is why I said you can still obtain most of those things in meat, bones, and organs. I am not a raw feeding expert nor a dietician so please correct anything I do get incorrect. I'm sure there are organs that are denser in certain vitamins and minerals and there are certain veggies that are denser in certain vitamins and minerals. One thing I think of off the top of my head is beta-carotene found densely in carrots, spinach, and peppers. Is there a meat source that provides this? Of course there are a lot of beneficial anti-oxidants in fruits and veggies that aren't prevalent in meat sources too. 

Another thing about veggies is they are generally low in calories. So they generally pack a very strong nutritional punch for very few calories. Celery for example provides tons of nutritional value for literally no calories.


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## Sarayu14

I say, let's agree to disagree (I think I am using it in the correct context)


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## Questdriven

HerdersForMe said:


> Yea I was aware of that which is why I said you can still obtain most of those things in meat, bones, and organs. I am not a raw feeding expert nor a dietician so please correct anything I do get incorrect. I'm sure there are organs that are denser in certain vitamins and minerals and there are certain veggies that are denser in certain vitamins and minerals. One thing I think of off the top of my head is beta-carotene found densely in carrots, spinach, and peppers. Is there a meat source that provides this? Of course there are a lot of beneficial anti-oxidants in fruits and veggies that aren't prevalent in meat sources too.
> 
> Another thing about veggies is they are generally low in calories. So they generally pack a very strong nutritional punch for very few calories. Celery for example provides tons of nutritional value for literally no calories.


I believe beta-carotene is present in grassfed beef. I don't know much about antioxidants, though in a quick internet search I found something on some science website about natural antioxidants in poultry and seafood:
http://www.kalsec.com/products/anti...plications/antioxidants-meat-poultry-seafood/
Not completely sure how accurate it is right now, just look at the page and see what you think and if I goofed or whatever. I don't feel like it right now. I just had my wisdom teeth removed yesterday and I'm getting dizzy spells at the moment.

This gives them value as treats and snacks, assuming the dog will eat them. The only veggie my dog doesn't spit out is peas. I just don't feel that I need to feed them as part of his regular diet. I'm willing to agree to disagree.


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## meggels

I dunno, I think the proof is in my frenchies poops now that he's back on raw. Tiny, tiny, tiny little poops, twice a day. Why? Because he's eating a raw diet that is 80% meat, bone and organ, and he's digesting the majority of his food now, rather than just pooping it right back out.


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## flipgirl

Sarayu14 said:


> Just a question, have you had to deal with the gases that come from a grain fed dog?  Silent but room clearing is one way to describe my experiences with them. lol


My dog is currently eating a homecooked diet with grains and never.has gas. Her food also contains an Orange verge and a green verge and a fruit like blueberries or raspberries depending on the mood I am in or whichever is cheaper. Orange veggies include carrot, sweet potato or butter squash. Green veggies include green beans, broccoli, or zucchini. As long as they are processed dogs can digest them (as they are already digested in the stomachs of their prey). She has never had gas and her poop is small in volume, similar to when she was fed raw. The amount of fruit and veggies is low and the meat is definitely not outweighed by the grains. Having said this, I do prefer feeding her raw, grain-free. She was having an issue with her alt which was thought to be due to her raw diet but her condition is congenital. Eventually, she will go back to it. I like to switch things up now and then.

I never said dogs were omnivores but they are not obligate carnivores. They are quite adaptable. Not all dogs can handle high protein like that in Orijen, some can't handle grain-free. There is an article I can cite but I can't do it now as I only have access at work. If I remember, I will post it.


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## HerdersForMe

Questdriven said:


> I believe beta-carotene is present in grassfed beef. I don't know much about antioxidants, though in a quick internet search I found something on some science website about natural antioxidants in poultry and seafood


So then I guess my main concern of a prey model diet is that the meat has to closely resemble that of prey in the wild. Like you said, grass fed beef contains beta-carotene but corn fed beef (the vast majority of beef found in grocery stores) won't. Nutrients in the meat comes from the diet of the said prey and if the prey is fed a corn diet (like most "commercial" livestock these days...) there's going to be a lack of nutrients. Farm raised fish is a great example. Farm raised fish majorly lacks in the quantity of the essential amino acids that you find in wild caught fish. Of course everything I just said are big issues for humans too 

I think if your dog is healthy you're doing the right thing. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do or not do anything here but rather trying to become more educated myself in these feeding methods.


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## blues327

> One thing I think of off the top of my head is beta-carotene found densely in carrots, spinach, and peppers. Is there a meat source that provides this?


Beta carotene I believe gets converted to vitamin A, and is stored in the liver in fairly high amounts. If a dog is fed raw liver, wouldn't that be your source of vitamin A? If a dog's diet is one that should primarily come from eating prey animals, then I would think (but I could be wrong) that a animal source of vitamin A might be more beneficial to them than a plant source of vitamin A. 

I don't think it's enough to just look at the fact that dogs are carnivores, because there are species within the carnivore order that do not have animal prey as their main diet source (Panda). Dogs are classified as carnivores, but are also under the the exact same species as wolves, which is closer than dogs and bears, or chimps and humans etc. I've read that dogs and wolves are so close they can interbreed, and that a dog's digestive system has not evolved, for those that believe they have through domestication, I would be interested to know in what ways specifically they have changed? Stomach acid production? Length of digestive tract? 

_"Dogs are so much like wolves physiologically, that they are frequently used in wolf studies as a physiological model for wolf body processes." _
(Mech, L.D. 2003. Wolves: Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation) 

Yes wolves and wild dogs do eat other things besides prey animals, but for what reason? Because of lack of prey? Because it tastes good to them? I think there is a difference in what dogs are designed to eat, and what they will eat. If I go off of the theory that dogs eat plant matter in the wild because they need it, then when one of my dogs eats poop, cardboard, or stuffed animal fuzz, the reasoning it's because she needs those things in her diet, makes no sense to me.



> Of course there are a lot of beneficial anti-oxidants in fruits and veggies that aren't prevalent in meat sources too.


 I'd be curious to know which ones specifically, and do we know if they're beneficial to dogs (not humans) and that their bodies will properly process them to be so?

I don't think feeding grocery store meat could be much different than feeding dogs grocery store fruits and veggies that they wouldn't normally come across in the wild, and may be grown with pesticides, fertilizers, and chemicals. I would think that if the purpose of feeding the fruits and veggies is to "process" them up to mimic the small percentage of small whole prey stomach contents they would eat in the wild, then maybe feeding green tripe might represent this a little better, as I think some of the digested green matter still can be present in raw green tripe. 

I've read studies/articles that say dogs digest grains fine, and that they are beneficial to them, but those studies were either funded or conducted or connected in some way to dog food companies, I would be interested in reading something on this that isn't so biased.

I did come across this, which doesn't suggest carbohydrates from plant matter to be that appropriate in a dogs diet. 

_"Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down process of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. The carnivore's pancreas does not secrete cellulase to split the cellulose into glucose molecules, nor have dogs become efficient at digesting and assimilating and utilizing plant material as a source of high quality protein. Herbivores do those sorts of things"_
Canine and Feline Nutrition Case, Carey and Hirakawa Published by Mosby, 1995

Again I'd be interested in reading some non biased non dog food affiliated studies on carbs from plants and their affect on the pancreas. Also it is interesting to know that raw organs like kidney and liver do contain small amounts of carbohydrates.

_"There is no known minimum dietary carbohydrate requirement for either the dog or the cat. Based on investigations in the dog and with other species it is likely that dogs and cats can be maintained without carbohydrates if the diet supplies enough fat or protein from which the metabolic requirement for glucose is derived."_
(Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Nutrition, 2nd edition, 1988)

I think AFFCO standards and the National Research Council both do not list a needed percentage for carbohydrates on their dog nutritional requirement tables, which seems like they are saying it's an unessential and unnecessary nutritional requirement for dogs. 

What type of diet is a "fad" diet? Dogs have existed many many years before man even thought to invent kibble, and it's been suggested that they didn't always get fed cooked table scraps, because dogs were not always considered socially with such adoration and affection as they are now. 
_
"Wolf-dogs hunted with their masters and hung around the camps, knowing they would receive whatever raw meat, bones, and offal were left over." _
(Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 472.)

Since kibble has only existed in the last 100 years or so, and dogs have been around a lot longer than that with diets that were not necessarily similar to kibble, but possibly more similar to raw. It looks like kibble might be considered more of the "fad" diet, as it's the newest and youngest diet for dogs, compared to raw or home cooked.

When talking about proteins, or fats, or carbohydrates etc., I do think you have to consider the source (plant vs animal) and the type (heavily processed or cooked, vs raw) because I think it can make a difference in how dogs process them, and how nutritionally beneficial they might be.


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## flipgirl

blues327 said:


> Again I'd be interested in reading some non biased non dog food affiliated studies on carbs from plants and their affect on the pancreas. Also it is interesting to know that raw organs like kidney and liver do contain small amounts of carbohydrates.
> 
> Since kibble has only existed in the last 100 years or so, and dogs have been around a lot longer than that with diets that were not necessarily similar to kibble, but possibly more similar to raw. It looks like kibble might be considered more of the "fad" diet, as it's the newest and youngest diet for dogs, compared to raw or home cooked.
> 
> When talking about proteins, or fats, or carbohydrates etc., I do think you have to consider the source (plant vs animal) and the type (heavily processed or cooked, vs raw) because I think it can make a difference in how dogs process them, and how nutritionally beneficial they might be.


I would also be interested in the effect of carbs on cats' and dogs' pancreas, more so on a cat's. One of the vets at the clinic where I work said that the pancreas releases enzymes blah blah blah and this process allows a cat to assimilate plant proteins and carbs. Hmmm, I'm not convinced. Even if this process effectively assimilated these nutrients, would it place unnecessary stress on the pancreas? 

As to feeding raw or home cooked as a fad, all I meant was that more people are feeding raw and home cooked foods more than before due to this idea that our dogs and cats should be fed as nature intended. I don't think the idea of feeding as nature intended has really been prevalent. I'm not saying this way of feeding is wrong; just that pet food companies have used this idea to sell their food. This includes companies that make kibble which is far from what nature intended; meaning that companies will claim their food is feeding as nature intended and people buy this - but it's still kibble! I agree, kibble is a relatively young invention; its attractive quality being convenience and ease of feeding - an idea pet food companies used to pad their bottom line.


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## Questdriven

Heh, they'll say anything to sell kibble. People need to learn to read behind the pretty labels. (Not arguing, I'm agreeing with you.) Some kibbles are more natural than others, but not just because it says so.


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## Questdriven

HerdersForMe said:


> So then I guess my main concern of a prey model diet is that the meat has to closely resemble that of prey in the wild. Like you said, grass fed beef contains beta-carotene but corn fed beef (the vast majority of beef found in grocery stores) won't. Nutrients in the meat comes from the diet of the said prey and if the prey is fed a corn diet (like most "commercial" livestock these days...) there's going to be a lack of nutrients. Farm raised fish is a great example. Farm raised fish majorly lacks in the quantity of the essential amino acids that you find in wild caught fish. Of course everything I just said are big issues for humans too
> 
> I think if your dog is healthy you're doing the right thing. I'm not trying to persuade anyone to do or not do anything here but rather trying to become more educated myself in these feeding methods.


Yeah, the grocery store is not the best source out there, and then there's the hormones and stuff they have (excluding chicken, that's organic as per USDA guidelines), but I'd rather feed grocery store meat than any kibble. I can't afford the organic/properly fed meat, even for myself.
Thanks for the discussion, though. I don't really know all that much about what nutrients are available in what, though I can easily look it up in most cases.


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