# First training class. Ugh



## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Tonight Lucy had her first puppy class. A class with 5 other pups under 5 months old. One a Jack Russell . You can imagine how that class went! Lol. 


But anyway tonight was mostly the trainer talking about policies and describing equipment. Out came the choke and prong collars. She said try the regular collar first ( not a harness) to teach loose leash walking. If you don't have success, she said she goes to the prong. She does not advise the choke collar because it is hard for owners to get proper control. 

This trainer has a stellar reputation around here, and I have had two vets and two pet stores recommend her. she has a long resume and has gotten lots of awards in obedience competitions. I am a brand newbie and know nothing, but I have read till my eyeballs have fallen out. And I have come to not like the idea of these training collars. 

I am going to continue with the classes for now, and see how things go. But I don't think I'm going to like some of the things she suggests. 

I had a consultation with a "positive reinforcement" trainer last week. It was basically just a meet and greet. We never talked about collars. I should have asked but forgot! He did not overly impress me, as he seemed a bit unsure of himself. He mentioned he has only been training for two years. 

I have researched my entire area, and I can't seem to find a really experienced positive only trainer. I think I will stick with both of these trainers for now. And pick and choose the techniques I am comfortable with. I sure am glad I did my research before I got Lucy or I would just blindly follow whatever these guys told me to do. 


Anyway, I am not sure I am asking for advice. I'm just venting my anxiety a bit. But we shall see how it goes from here. Wish us luck.


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## Shoul (May 8, 2012)

I would consider not going back to the prong collar lady if that's what she presented on the first day of class for PUPPIES. What area do you live around, maybe someone here has a suggestion? I don't have as much of a problem with the positive reinforcement trainer (if he IS using positive reinforcement). If he's also unsure, then at least you both have time to do your research before potentially trying something new. 

The reason I'm advising not going back to the prong lady is because a lot can go wrong in a training class (it's a socialization class right?) and even if it means not getting your money back, the cost of damage you might have to undo later could be much great than what you're paying for now. What if the trainer has to intervene between two dogs almost fighting and disciplines them harshly? What if she wants to demo something and uses your dog? Are you always going to be confident enough and know beforehand not to let her do something. I once had an agility trainer (for a foundations agility class) slap my dog on the nose when he started fixating on another dog walking into the ring instead of looking at her. Needless to say I never went back because, even if it meant losing over $100, I wanted my dog to enjoy agility later and he was becoming severely stressed and reactive from this class. I'm still having to undo damage from just 2 classes with her.

I'm also a first time dog owner and have been having issues with finding the right training places, but don't be afraid of walking away from somewhere. Ultimately, you know your dog the best and he might thank you in the end. Especially at such a young age, so much can go wrong. I understand the need for him to socialize with other dogs, but maybe there are other people you know with well socialized dogs. Of course, you know the situation better than I do and once again this is your decision. :wink:


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

For puppies who are pretty unlikely to have any longstanding bad habits and are likely not physically strong enough to make using a flat collar or plain harness a problem, I would be wary of a trainer suggesting jumping right to a prong. 

I have used prong collars and feel they have their place when properly used, but I have also taught loose leash walking on a plain harness to strong, young adult dogs (pits and pit mixes). I actually prefer the prong collar over the head collars for safety and comfort and if the dog has sensitive skin, they make soft rubber covers for the prong tips. I've met people who think prong collars are horrible and painful and yet yank the dog around on a head collar risking neck damage, making the dog cower and having it rub the dog's face. ALL tools have to be used correctly and safely. However, it would be a RARE 5 month old pup (esp a smaller breed) that I could see the need to use a prong collar on. 

In general IMO, using any of the training collars or harnesses should be a step chosen for a particular dog, for a particular problem and made part of a training plan with a goal to transition to a flat (buckle or martingale) collar or regular harness. I would ask her how long she "gives" the owner and dog to learn loose leash walking on a flat collar before going to the prong, what her training plan for the loose leash walking consists of, and what training plan she teaches to transition from the prong collar to a flat collar. I might continue to go for a few sessions, but then again, I can make training decisions for my own dog and would be more than willing to nicely tell the teacher that I am not going to use certain methods of her's.

The positive reinforcement trainer might be great with dogs and simply nervous around people and still learning the business (people) side of training. I would suggest trying some sessions with him and seeing how the dog responds. See what methods and equipment he suggests. You'll be able to tell which trainer and training methods make your dog feel confident, eager to learn and comfortable with the trainer. The dog should LIKE the trainer and LIKE the sessions, she should be excited when the car pulls up at the training facility and have happy body language.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm having a difficult time imagining a legitimate need for a prong collar on that cute little 10 lb puppy in your avatar. Does not compute .



Lucy Brees said:


> She said try the regular collar first ( not a harness) to teach loose leash walking. If you don't have success, she said she goes to the prong.


Personally .. not a fan of changing horses mid-stream, just because the first horse doesn't seem to be swimming fast enough. Commitment, patience, and faith is the best all-around means to get to the other side. Little bit of testicular fortitude helps too, when fending off anyone who might suggest otherwise.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

If you are anxious after the FIRST class then that is a sign.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm going to disagree with some of the people here. It's important for pups to get used to the "look and feel" of different things. I would never USE a pinch on a puppy - and even on an older dog, I would try other collars first to see how they would work for that dog. But I would certainly show him one and even briefly put it on and take it off. Even if it turns out that you NEVER actually used it. Just showing him what one is iike will be a new experience for him. The more new experiences he has, the better his training will be no matter what you ultimately train him for.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Poly said:


> I'm going to disagree with some of the people here. It's important for pups to get used to the "look and feel" of different things. I would never USE a pinch on a puppy - and even on an older dog, I would try other collars first to see how they would work for that dog. But I would certainly show him one and even briefly put it on and take it off. Even if it turns out that you NEVER actually used it. Just showing him what one is iike will be a new experience for him. The more new experiences he has, the better his training will be no matter what you ultimately train him for.


Sure, but that's the same as me putting a dress-up ruff collar, or my arms, or a towel, around my dog's neck to get him used to the idea of having those things there.
But at the same time I think if you have a well adjusted dog and you never used a prong or choke or tutu or whatever on it... It won't suddenly flip out some years in the future when you do. It's _great_ to expose dogs to new things, but some (ex. passing cars) are more important than other (ex. the feeling of a chain around neck). Barring lifestyle circumstances of course. If you live in the middle of nowhere and plan on chaining your dog often, then passing cars are not important and getting used to chains is.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I can't really think of a reason to get Kabota used to a prong collar.

What disturbs me about the OPs description is (a) toy breeds are at very high risk for tracheal collapse and they should ALL be on harnesses. She shouldn't even be suggesting a flat buckle collar for a toy breed. Secondly, "if it doesn't work" is an awfully vague concept. What is it that should be working? How long should you give it? What does "working" even mean? Might want to define those terms, trainer lady.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank you all for the responses. 

Just to clarify a few things: I did not feel anxious so much because of the class or the trainer herself. It was just an introductory class and she was going over policies and training aids. She did not necessarily say all of these aids would be used in the puppy classes. She may have been going over all types of aids used in all stages of training. She does offer progressive classes as the pup gets older. I failed to ask how long she would give leash walking a try before going to a prong, and I should have. I did ask if the prong was a temporary aid , and she said that is the goal, to get them back to a flat collar. She did mention that the pups are at a vulnerable stage right now regarding trauma and fear. I just don't want to bash her for things she did not say or do. My red flag went up only because I have done so much research on my own beforehand, and I know there is a lot of negative feelings about the corrective collars. 

Also I would not say this was/ is a socialization class per se. There were about 6 pups, all on leashes and we stood in a circle. The pups did try to get to each other to sniff and stuff, and we as owners did allow that to a degree. But for the most part everyone kept their dogs near them and did not allow them to pursue the other dogs freely. There was no off leash time. 


The trainer did not do anything to give me great pause in the first class. It was just the introduction of these aids that has me a bit concerned. I have no problem being assertive and refusing to allow certain things to be done to Lucy. I think I will go to the second class , see what happens, and ask more specific questions about the use of the collars. 

I am also going to see the positive reinforcement guy as well. I will ask him these same specific questions about his techniques and devices used. His classes are basically private lessons, but he did say he would like to arrange a joint class with another pup that he thinks would be a good match for Lucy to play with. He said that would be off leash under close supervision, as on leash meetings increases aggressiveness and anxiety in the dogs. I like most of what he said. But one thing he did at our first meeting I did not like was he pulled Lucy by the leash to get him closer to him to work on sit and down. I did not like that. But I am a very over protective doggy mom now. Lucy is my first dog. I have never been a dog person before now. But the depth and intensity of love I feel for her after just 2.5 months is actually quite astounding to me. I have been blessed with a really great puppy. She has a wonderful temperament, is laid back and cooperative, yet fun and playful. She is smart and learns fast. Super friendly and happy. Very affectinate and I do not want to ruin all of that. 

I live in the new Orleans area if any of you know a great trainer around here. 

Thank you..more input is welcome.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> I can't really think of a reason to get Kabota used to a prong collar.
> 
> What disturbs me about the OPs description is (a) toy breeds are at very high risk for tracheal collapse and they should ALL be on harnesses. She shouldn't even be suggesting a flat buckle collar for a toy breed. Secondly, "if it doesn't work" is an awfully vague concept. What is it that should be working? How long should you give it? What does "working" even mean? Might want to define those terms, trainer lady.



She said no harnesses for walking. This concerns me too cuz she is so small and she pulls hard and runs and hits the end of the line and really jerks herself. I'm going to ask the positive trainer if he will walk train on a harness.

What she suggested was the quick release nylon collars.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> I'm having a difficult time imagining a legitimate need for a prong collar on that cute little 10 lb puppy in your avatar. Does not compute .
> 
> 
> 
> Personally .. not a fan of changing horses mid-stream, just because the first horse doesn't seem to be swimming fast enough. Commitment, patience, and faith is the best all-around means to get to the other side. Little bit of testicular fortitude helps too, when fending off anyone who might suggest otherwise.



I hear ya. I am a woman but I gots me some balls.  tee hee


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> For puppies who are pretty unlikely to have any longstanding bad habits and are likely not physically strong enough to make using a flat collar or plain harness a problem, I would be wary of a trainer suggesting jumping right to a prong.


I even use prong collars on goldfish but pups under 5 months old in a strange place where excitement etc runs rampant just might not be the direction to go.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

You will know what to do! I didn't post to say anything about the trainer pulling out training tools... The only red flag from your post was the fact that YOU did not feel good after the first class. Good of you to stick through the second one and see if things go the way you want them to, and good on you for knowing when you want to put your foot down. But regardless if this trainer ever even suggests using these tools on Lucy, if you don't get good vibes from these classes your dog might feed off of that too.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Oh and I forgot to mention that Lucy was the cutest, smartest, and most well behaved puppy in class. :rockon:


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Canyx said:


> You will know what to do! I didn't post to say anything about the trainer pulling out training tools... The only red flag from your post was the fact that YOU did not feel good after the first class. Good of you to stick through the second one and see if things go the way you want them to, and good on you for knowing when you want to put your foot down. But regardless if this trainer ever even suggests using these tools on Lucy, if you don't get good vibes from these classes your dog might feed off of that too.



I hear you friend and I totally appreciate your input. I am going to go to the second one with eyes wide open. I will have no problem pulling out if it doesn't feel right.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

wvasko said:


> I even use prong collars on goldfish but pups under 5 months old in a strange place where excitement etc runs rampant just might not be the direction to go.


Good point, which also brings me to another point. Lucy was so distracted that she was not even interested in her treats. I do not see this setting being conducive to much learning. I suspect the approach is that the trainer teaches us what to do in the classes and then we actually do the real work at home.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Lucy Brees said:


> She said no harnesses for walking. This concerns me too cuz she is so small and she pulls hard and runs and hits the end of the line and really jerks herself. I'm going to ask the positive trainer if he will walk train on a harness.
> 
> What she suggested was the quick release nylon collars.


One option is working with a collar in class where she's less likely to be running and lunging and hitting the end of the line and a harness out for walks where there are exciting things she might jump towards.

I greatly prefer a harness to keep their neck safe, even for a large dog, but I would definitely want to use a harness on a small breed puppy for daily walks. For my large breed dog, if I walk him on a collar (usually just for a short leg stretch in the neighborhood) he wears a 2 inch nylon collar to reduce any impact since even when he is loose leash walking, there's always the chance of me being clumsy and accidentally yanking the leash or the occasional SQUIRREL! moment.



Lucy Brees said:


> Good point, which also brings me to another point. Lucy was so distracted that she was not even interested in her treats. I do not see this setting being conducive to much learning. I suspect the approach is that the trainer teaches us what to do in the classes and then we actually do the real work at home.


Part of class is learning the techniques and practicing them at home and then part of class is proofing what you worked on all week at home around those distractions. that's why class can be so useful even if someone already knows the methods to teach the basics- it provides a handy "real world" environment of people and dogs around to train with while still keeping the class structure/safety benefits that the "real world" doesn't have.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Shell said:


> One option is working with a collar in class where she's less likely to be running and lunging and hitting the end of the line and a harness out for walks where there are exciting things she might jump towards.
> 
> I greatly prefer a harness to keep their neck safe, even for a large dog, but I would definitely want to use a harness on a small breed puppy for daily walks. For my large breed dog, if I walk him on a collar (usually just for a short leg stretch in the neighborhood) he wears a 2 inch nylon collar to reduce any impact since even when he is loose leash walking, there's always the chance


so a nylon collar is safer for their neck than a regular buckle one?


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

ToplineK9Obedience said:


> Hey Lucy,
> It sounds like you have some big decisions to make! The key for you, no matter what you decide, is to do your research! It sounds like you are already on the right foot with that. The trainer that suggested the prong is'nt necessarily in the wrong for doing so, but simply expressing her opinions on what methods might benefit you both the most. We use prong collars in our training, and have the same opinion on choke chains. The choke chains are actually the most damaging collar to a dogs neck, surprisingly the flat collar is the next damaging collar (when the dogs don't understand loose leash walking and are constantly pulling) bruising and damaging the muscle tissue around that area. If you are uncomfortable using the prong, then do not use it. Apart from training collars and methods, consistency is the key to any training. If you are not comfortable with a training technique or tool, then odds are you will not be consistent in using it, and it will not be an overall benefit to you.
> However, if this trainer has won obedience trials and awards, odds are that she knows what shes doing for the most part. You could still participate in her class and use a 'purely positive method' by just substituting her prong collar for a flat collar. One thing that you can also do if you would like to toy around with the idea of using the prong collar is attach the leash both to the flat collar and the prong collar simultaneously. This will help to get the dog used to the tension of the prong without it having the full effect.
> Odds are that she is using the prong to help effectively communicate to the dog, in a language that she understands, what it is you are trying to get across. It should never be used as a punishment, and has a large margin of error to be used improperly. However, when used properly, it can help us to communicate to the dogs what we want, just as if we were administering a mouth or nip as another pack member would, or a mother to her pup. This is how I would think of it. It is not for every dog, and every situation, and should never be used on behaviors that aren't learned yet!
> Doing your research on trainers is pretty much key though. Be sure that your purely positive trainers have experience working WITH the dogs, and not just got a dog training certificate offline. It sounds like you have a good head on your shoulders. Just dont be afraid to ask questions and go about the class in your own way. If they are a good trainer, they will let you proceed without the use of the training tool, and still learn the techniques in a way that will benefit you.


Thank you very much for this. I do have an open mind, and would not say a prong collar is never the way to go for a certain dog. Like kids I am sure you have to find what works for you and your dog (meaning me and my dog). I also have pretty good instincts. I am going to proceed with both trainers at the same time, get a better feel for both of them, ask questions and continue to research, and carefully proceed. I have a lot of patience and am willing to work with Lucy for a very long time before I give up and go to adversive measures. 

I also like your idea of using the collar in class and the harness when practicing at home. I assume the training techniques will be the same on both?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Lucy Brees said:


> so a nylon collar is safer for their neck than a regular buckle one?


The nylon collar is a buckle collar. What I mean is that he wears a WIDE collar if the leash is attached and a normal width nylon collar with his tags on it for identification when he's on a harness or loose in the yard. But anytime I expect him to put pressure on the leash- like when he's on his long line out in a field or when the situation is more excitement and I may need to hold him closer or when there are deer around (loose leash goes out the window when he spots deer...), then he is on a harness because even on a wider collar it still puts pressure the trachea.

I figure if I can teach this:








then you can teach loose leash walking to your young small dog with whichever method (flat collar or harness) that you prefer if you start now and use consistent, positive training.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Poly said:


> I'm going to disagree with some of the people here. It's important for pups to get used to the "look and feel" of different things. I would never USE a pinch on a puppy - and even on an older dog, I would try other collars first to see how they would work for that dog. But I would certainly show him one and even briefly put it on and take it off. Even if it turns out that you NEVER actually used it. Just showing him what one is iike will be a new experience for him. The more new experiences he has, the better his training will be no matter what you ultimately train him for.


Since I don't use prong collars, I see no reason to introduce one to a puppy. Even if you don't intend to pop the dog with the prong, puppies do occasionally get out of position and will feel the pinch. One reason I quit teaching for the local obedience club was because I was turning out nicely clicker trained puppies who knew how to walk on a loose leash, and the instructor of the next class they went to (a very nice man, by the way) routinely put every dog on a prong the first week whether they needed it or not, If the instructor is telling you to go to the collar, and then if that doesn't work, the prong . . . I have to think that she is using the flat collar to pop the dog as well.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I even use prong collars on goldfish but pups under 5 months old in a strange place where excitement etc runs rampant just might not be the direction to go.


How do you find those itty bitty prong collars?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> How do you find those itty bitty prong collars?


Depends on what size goldfish he was training of course. For those nice big koi he would just have to remove a few links, I suppose the state fair sized goldfish would probably need specially made prong collars- maybe bent paperclips?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ToplineK9Obedience said:


> However, if this trainer has won obedience trials and awards, odds are that she knows what shes doing for the most part. You could still participate in her class and use a 'purely positive method' by just substituting her prong collar for a flat collar. One thing that you can also do if you would like to toy around with the idea of using the prong collar is attach the leash both to the flat collar and the prong collar simultaneously. This will help to get the dog used to the tension of the prong without it having the full effect.
> 
> She may know what she is doing (I've also won top obedience awards and rankings. Not to mention freestyle, agility, herding and rally) but there are a lot of top obedience handlers who are very "old school" and you may be sure I'd never let them put their hands on my dog.
> 
> ...


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have just gone through an Obedience training class with my Lucy. I have done enough training that it did not bother me that she had the prong collar, choke collar, etc. set out at our first class. I had Lucy on a flat collar and just continued to use it. What did bother me was that she said "no treats" but I managed to get around that by using a small stick as a reward as she loved sticks. I would reward her by letting her have the stick and chew on it every once in a while. I used treats training on my own. Lucy was 6 months old and needed the socialization as the classes were held in a local park. It worked out great for her as when we first started she was barking at everything and she settled down and was really good. Did well in the obedience too.

I now have her in a Foundation Agility class where we use clickers and treats and she just loves it. It is my first go at clickers.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ToplineK9Obedience said:


> They do make training collars for dogs of all sizes. It is very ill advised to be using any form of training collar without the proper direction given to any dog, in any situation, not just a young puppy in a highly distracted pet store. When used properly, these tools can give you the suggestion needed to get your dogs attention and have their focus throughout these distractions, however this needs to be built up. Every dog is different, just like every person is different, and while one thing may work on 100 different dogs, it may not work for dog 101, and it is important to view the training in such a delicate manner as well.


No. I was talking about the prong collars Vwasko posted he uses on goldfish. It was a joke.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> Since I don't use prong collars, I see no reason to introduce one to a puppy. Even if you don't intend to pop the dog with the prong, puppies do occasionally get out of position and will feel the pinch. One reason I quit teaching for the local obedience club was because I was turning out nicely clicker trained puppies who knew how to walk on a loose leash, and the instructor of the next class they went to (a very nice man, by the way) routinely put every dog on a prong the first week whether they needed it or not, If the instructor is telling you to go to the collar, and then if that doesn't work, the prong . . . *I have to think that she is using the flat collar to pop the dog as well*.


what does this mean? I do not like the sound of this. She did not get into any specifics for her methods last night.......

someone please describe to me what positive training for leash walking consists of..... be a tree, reward for forward movement..... ???


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lucy Brees said:


> what does this mean? I do not like the sound of this. She did not get into any specifics for her methods last night.......
> 
> someone please describe to me what positive training for leash walking consists of..... be a tree, reward for forward movement..... ???


The way I train, it means attention first and foremost. And if the dog gets distracted and wants to pull, I use be a tree for small dogs and changing direction/backing up for larger dogs. The rule is "we only go where you want if the leash is loose" Otherwise we go another direction or don't go at all. This is called negative punishment, and the reason few us us claim to be "purely positive". Unwanted behavior leads to dog not reaching that great smelly bush, treat on the floor or person he wants to see. I also start clicking and treating for a single step of moving with attention, and then build it up from there - one step at a time, so the next time the dog has to give me two steps of attention, etc. If the dog looses focus, we back up and start at one step again.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> The way I train, it means attention first and foremost. And if the dog gets distracted and wants to pull, I use be a tree for small dogs and changing direction/backing up for larger dogs. The rule is "we only go where you want if the leash is loose" Otherwise we go another direction or don't go at all. This is called negative punishment, and the reason few us us claim to be "purely positive". Unwanted behavior leads to dog not reaching that great smelly bush, treat on the floor or person he wants to see. I also start clicking and treating for a single step of moving with attention, and then build it up from there - one step at a time, so the next time the dog has to give me two steps of attention, etc. If the dog looses focus, we back up and start at one step again.


I do nearly the exact thing. I've only worked with larger dogs though and most have already developed bad habits (or are simply large and have no leash knowledge at all) so we do a LOT of changing direction, but overall it has worked pretty well. And I use a harness for it since there's never a "need" to pop a collar (I have found that trainers who insist on collars over harnesses tend to want to use collar popping as a technique but this is just from my small sample of local trainers)


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

what is collar popping? Any body got links to videos on the positive method? I fear i wont be be able to find anyone here to train with not correction methods


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Lucy Brees said:


> what is collar popping? Any body got links to videos on the positive method? I fear i wont be be able to find anyone here to train with not correction methods


Basically it is a quick yank on the leash.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ToplineK9Obedience said:


> I have had the pleasure of working with the world renown Tom Rose School for Professional Dog Trainers and graduated from there June 2011, so I guess you could say I'm a newbie
> Being 27 years old I definitely do not have several years of experience behind my belt.


I went to a schutzhund seminar with Tom Rose years ago. Unless he has changed his methods drastically, he would definitely be one of the people I would never let touch my dog. The dogs that he worked kept redirecting on him when he gigged them with the prong collar. Me, I'm an old booger. Started in competition obedience in the late 70s (traditional style), multiple obedience titles and national rankings through UD and OTCH, qualified for 4 regionals, rally through excellent, dabbled in Schutzhund, but really had the wrong breed (Aussie, though he loved to bite and considered our first helper his best buddy for letting him play the game.) Herding titles in three venues - through open and ranch dog, currentlly due to health issues, have had to cut back on travel and activities, but am working on intermediate titles with two dogs in Freestyle. Certified by CCPDT Certified Professional Dog Trainer - knowledge accessed. That includes at least 300 hours as a primary trainer, a four hour test (which I aced in about 2.5 hours) and letters of recommendation from a Vet, a Collegue, and a client. Have been to seminars with a bunch of good trainers, and a few who taught me what I'd never do to a dog, and have taught classes for about 33 years. I'd give a link to my profile, but advertising (other than by paying sponsors) is not allowed here.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lucy Brees said:


> what is collar popping? Any body got links to videos on the positive method? I fear i wont be be able to find anyone here to train with not correction methods


I thought you were working with a positive motivation trainer too? Just say no to collar corrections. A trainer can't make you do anything you aren't willing to do. Shoot. I've even been known to allow people in my classes to have a prong collar on their dog (due to their superstitious belief that the dog wouldn't work if it wasn't wearing one). I just don't allow a leash to be attached to it in my class! Or even popping of a flat collar,.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> They do make training collars for dogs of all sizes.


I do believe she was referring to the prong collars used on my Goldfish.



> How do you find those itty bitty prong collars?


I'm not gonna say where I get the prong collars because of possible Goldfish abuse.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

A reminder to all that links, whether in your signature or in the body of your post, are a violation of forum rules and can drastically shorten your tenure here.

Also, please don't quote posts with links.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RonE said:


> A reminder to all that links, whether in your signature or in the body of your post, are a violation of forum rules and can drastically shorten your tenure here.
> 
> Also, please don't quote posts with links.


I (think) I judiciously left out the link in the quote. A question though? Is it okay to give links that are not advertising, but to education articles and really cool freestyle videos like the one of Michele and Deja? If I get some freestyle practice videos, is it okay to post them if they are not attached to my website? Just for clarification, as some of that stuff is really useful and fun.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think you'll find that, after you've been here a while and participated regularly, the types of links you mention will be left in place. 

We are highly skeptical of links to blogs, commercial sites, surveys, contests, etc and most especially when it looks like redirecting forum traffic is your reason for being here.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> I thought you were working with a positive motivation trainer too? Just say no to collar corrections. A trainer can't make you do anything you aren't willing to do. Shoot. I've even been known to allow people in my classes to have a prong collar on their dog (due to their superstitious belief that the dog wouldn't work if it wasn't wearing one). I just don't allow a leash to be attached to it in my class! Or even popping of a flat collar,.



I have both on hand: the older school more traditional lady and the newer guy who states he is positive only. I have to learn more specifics about both of them. But I also have to learn myself about what types of techniques are considered under each umbrella. I am on a huge learning curve and was asking what collar popping was b/c I had never heard of it before. Just trying to get as educated as possible.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Update: I took Lucy in the yard today and we loose leash walked back and forth with her fabric mesh cheapo harness and leash. I held treats in front of her face and coaxed her along , giving her treats every few feet, and praising highly when she was in the zone. I think she is trained now. That was SO easy!






















JUST KIDDING!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Lucy Brees said:


> Update: I took Lucy in the yard today and we loose leash walked back and forth with her fabric mesh cheapo harness and leash. I held treats in front of her face and coaxed her along , giving her treats every few feet, and praising highly when she was in the zone. I think she is trained now. That was SO easy!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Boy, you're lucky you added the JUST "KIDDING" I was getting ready to ship Pierce to you for a couple weeks.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

wvasko said:


> Boy, you're lucky you added the JUST "KIDDING" I was getting ready to ship Pierce to you for a couple weeks.


tee hee hee.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I do believe she was referring to the prong collars used on my Goldfish.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not gonna say where I get the prong collars because of possible Goldfish abuse.


While I don't know anyone who has trained goldfish with an ittty bitty prong collar, I know a few people who have clicker trained gold fish. And a couple of friends who just got back from "Chicken Camp" I am so jealous. It's on my bucket list.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RonE said:


> I think you'll find that, after you've been here a while and participated regularly, the types of links you mention will be left in place.
> 
> We are highly skeptical of links to blogs, commercial sites, surveys, contests, etc and most especially when it looks like redirecting forum traffic is your reason for being here.


Thanks, that's what I have found, but just wanted clarification so I am not breaking rules.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Shell said:


> Depends on what size goldfish he was training of course. For those nice big koi he would just have to remove a few links, I suppose the state fair sized goldfish would probably need specially made prong collars- maybe bent paperclips?


i just got a state fair goldfish last week and have been trying the paperclips but they're beginning to rust. does anyone know where i can find rubber covers for the really small prong collars? he's only 1/4 of an oz. but pulls like crazy. already tried petsmart....

/but really, i did get a fish last week from the fair. this made me laugh, especially since bubba is 6000x the size of the goldfish and is pretty good at loose leash if i do say so myself.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Maybe you should try a head collar Rescued? Then you can gently guide the fish in the right direction and the nylon won't rust. 

But combine it with clicker training and a generous serving of yummy flakes of course.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> While I don't know anyone who has trained goldfish with an ittty bitty prong collar, I know a few people who have clicker trained gold fish. And a couple of friends who just got back from "Chicken Camp" I am so jealous. It's on my bucket list.


I have never trained a goldfish, but my cats have. They used some kind of luring technique and got them to jump right out of the aquarium....... maybe I should let my cats leash train Lucy since they are so effective.....


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Lucy, if you Google "silky leash" you'll find a good video about how to train your dog to walk on a loose leash using positive methods. 

I agree with what people are telling you, BTW. The "no harness" thing is a bit ominous and would cause me to ask more questions.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

hamandeggs said:


> Lucy, if you Google "silky leash" you'll find a good video about how to train your dog to walk on a loose leash using positive methods.
> 
> I agree with what people are telling you, BTW. The "no harness" thing is a bit ominous and would cause me to ask more questions.


thanks I will. I assume it is on youtube?

Trainer said the harness encourages pulling, but Lucy is so wild right now I cant stand the thought of a collar on her when she jerks herself around. When you guys say u can train on a harness, do you mean a normal nylon or fabric harness, or do you automatically mean one of the no pull harnesses with the leash hooking on front?


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Lucy Brees said:


> thanks I will. I assume it is on youtube?
> 
> Trainer said the harness encourages pulling, but Lucy is so wild right now I cant stand the thought of a collar on her when she jerks herself around. When you guys say u can train on a harness, do you mean a normal nylon or fabric harness, or do you automatically mean one of the no pull harnesses with the leash hooking on front?


Yes, Youtube. It's by trainer who calls herself "Kikopup." Her videos are great.

I mean a normal nylon or fabric harness. I think the front-clip harnesses can be more aversive than most people realize, just because they don't look like they're going to hurt the dog - I wouldn't use that on a puppy, especially without really giving loose-leash training with a normal harness a good hard try first. Most people who use a front-clip harness seem to stick with them for life - more a maintenance tool than a training tool IMHO.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lucy Brees said:


> thanks I will. I assume it is on youtube?
> 
> Trainer said the harness encourages pulling, but Lucy is so wild right now I cant stand the thought of a collar on her when she jerks herself around. When you guys say u can train on a harness, do you mean a normal nylon or fabric harness, or do you automatically mean one of the no pull harnesses with the leash hooking on front?


I prefer front ring, or two points of attachment. Along with training, of course.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hamandeggs said:


> Yes, Youtube. It's by trainer who calls herself "Kikopup." Her videos are great.
> 
> I mean a normal nylon or fabric harness. I think the front-clip harnesses can be more aversive than most people realize, just because they don't look like they're going to hurt the dog - I wouldn't use that on a puppy, especially without really giving loose-leash training with a normal harness a good hard try first. Most people who use a front-clip harness seem to stick with them for life - more a maintenance tool than a training tool IMHO.


Curious how you think they are aversive?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I use a normal nylon harness such as a basic step-in or h-back. I dont think the front attach harnesses are adversive but I think that if you are starting from puppyhood they are a bit of an un-needed crutch.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Curious how you think they are aversive?


I should have been more clear. I don't think all the front-clip harnesses are aversive, but I think the "easy walk" ones (which have a fabric loop in front that squeezes the harness tighter across the chest when the dog pulls) can be aversive to some dogs. I know it was for my dog, and I've seen it in other dogs too. I was conflating "front clip" with the "easy walk" brand because AFAIK those are the most popular front-clip harnesses and the only one you can find in PetSmart. I wouldn't say a normal front-clip harness is aversive, but I stand by what I say about the easy-walk.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hamandeggs said:


> I should have been more clear. I don't think all the front-clip harnesses are aversive, but I think the "easy walk" ones (which have a fabric loop in front that squeezes the harness tighter across the chest when the dog pulls) can be aversive to some dogs. I know it was for my dog, and I've seen it in other dogs too. I was conflating "front clip" with the "easy walk" brand because AFAIK those are the most popular front-clip harnesses and the only one you can find in PetSmart. I wouldn't say a normal front-clip harness is aversive, but I stand by what I say about the easy-walk.


Fair enough. I prefer the Freedom - which also has a slight tightening IF you use the back ring. But I've seen many used with terrific management effects. Of course this is while we are working on LLW. It's just difficult for many people to turn every walk into a training situation, and nice to have a way to manage when that's the case without messing up the training. Not too fond of the easy walk but many people use them because they are easy to buy. I haven't seen any dogs appear to find them aversive. but my Alice is so body sensative that any harness has the effect of a thundershirt or body wrap and makes her "sleepy" and logy


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Thanks guys. Lucy has just a normal store bought pretty pink mesh fabric harness. Nothing fancy. It of course clips the leash on her back. That is fine to start with you say? she seems to like it and it seems comfortable, and if she does jerk hard, it's soft on her chest you know? 

No reason I can't train her on that? That is what i really want to do, and am willing to work on it. 

This is my goal for Lucy: a well behaved family pet that won't run out the door into the street, jump on guests, and can be walked at the lakefront or park or festivals without it being a nightmare. No competitions, shows or a anything like that. Just want her basically well behaved, happy and safe!!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> While I don't know anyone who has trained goldfish with an ittty bitty prong collar, I know a few people who have clicker trained gold fish. And a couple of friends who just got back from "Chicken Camp" I am so jealous. It's on my bucket list.


DO NOT, I repeat do not use an e-collar on Goldfish it just is not a good option.

Oh my I just went back and read other replies on fish training. I though this was a new frontier that only I had entered, silly me. 

The good news is it's nice when I find people as crazy as I am, onward fish people


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Lucy Brees said:


> Thanks guys. Lucy has just a normal store bought pretty pink mesh fabric harness. Nothing fancy. It of course clips the leash on her back. That is fine to start with you say? she seems to like it and it seems comfortable, and if she does jerk hard, it's soft on her chest you know?
> 
> *No reason I can't train her on that? That is what i really want to do, and am willing to work on it. *
> 
> This is my goal for Lucy: a well behaved family pet that won't run out the door into the street, jump on guests, and can be walked at the lakefront or park or festivals without it being a nightmare. No competitions, shows or a anything like that. Just want her basically well behaved, happy and safe!!


No reason at all you cannot train her on that.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hamandeggs said:


> Yes, Youtube. It's by trainer who calls herself "Kikopup." Her videos are great.
> 
> .


Actually, while the Kikopup videos are wonderful "Silky Leash" is Grisha Stewart (Ahimsa) which might make the search easier.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Actually, while the Kikopup videos are wonderful "Silky Leash" is Grisha Stewart (Ahimsa) which might make the search easier.


Oops, my bad! Thanks for the catch!

Kikopup has good loose leash walking videos too


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

So, we're saying Search Google, individually for : "loose Leash"; "Silky Leash" Grisha Stewart (Ahimsa); Kikopup 
Three different searches for loose leash ... separated here by semi-colons. I'm sure I confused things 
Another Search is "Turid Rugaas" "dog pulls"

After you look at these and practice, I suggest that you speak directly with the trainer and tell her that you are uncomfortable with the philosophy of any type of leash correction. Then, let her tell you that she understands and you don't need to worry, or that it is the best way that she's found...

Thirty years ago, her methods might have been the norm, but we have better methods, softer, gentler methods now...

Except for Goldfish ... but I have never electrocuted a goldfish with an e-collar.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

I have had a lot of success following Sue Ailsby's training levels. It's free, all positive training, very easy to follow (step-by-step), and you can go as far as you want based on your goals for your dog (pet or sport). Just google "Sue Ailsby's training levels" and you should find them on her site. The "Old levels" is the free one on her site. Just my suggestion.


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## Lucy Brees (Aug 20, 2012)

Thank you all. I will look thse links up!


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