# Prong or Pinch collar??



## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

How do you guys feel about the Prong collar or pinch collar? If you don't care for them does anyone with northern breeds or big dogs that pull, suggest something for me. Gentle leader doesn't work anymore, choker collar no go, regular collar forget about it. 

She is prefect off leash. once I can stop the pulling she is all good.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Grrrrrrrrr !


... that's all I'm gonna say


LOL


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## Shandwill (Jul 23, 2010)

We used a prong collar with Prophet for a couple of months when we first started training years ago. He did great with it and would come running to me when he heard it jingle. If you choose to use one, PLEASE make sure it is fitted properly and sits up high just behind the jaw. I saw a dog last week with a prong down against it's chest, ugh. Again, if used properly, I think they are fine SHORT-TERM.
All that being said, prong collars have been known to "amp up" some dogs rather than offering improved control. Some dogs don't respond to them, period. For example, due to Russia's coat, I really don't think she would feel one. She has done great with a simple Volhard collar. It's a snap-around nylon collar that has both a dead ring and a live ring depending on what your needs are. This collar MUST be fitted properly in order to be effective, as well. People who are not familiar with these collars are shocked when they see a 113lb. CO puppy work so effortlessly on "a little nylon collar." Here's a picture and a link if you're interested. Best of luck!

http://www.handcraftcollars.com/


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## [email protected] (Mar 11, 2011)

As said above they are meant to be short term, they are only training collars. Do make sure to have it properly fitted, because not only can a poorly fitted one choke them a little but the collar won't work properly if it sits wrong. Also be sure to buy a proper brand because some of the cheaper ones are not tipped right so they are sharp. If you are concerned a good frame of reference you can put it around your own neck. That's what I did.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

malamutelove said:


> How do you guys feel about the Prong collar or pinch collar? If you don't care for them does anyone with northern breeds or big dogs that pull, suggest something for me. Gentle leader doesn't work anymore, choker collar no go, regular collar forget about it.
> 
> She is prefect off leash. once I can stop the pulling she is all good.


http://ahimsadogtraining.com/blog/leash-walking/


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

What methods have you tried so far to teach him not to pull?


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

I use a prong with Kodi. It helped a lot to teach him not to pull. He would pull really hard occasionally and I didn't want him to hurt himself so we went to the prong. I first tried a no-pull harness, but eventually he started pulling against that too. He does well on his regular collar now for potty trips to the yard. I did try to do the loose leash training (reversing direction when he pulls, etc.) but I just can't handle that. It makes me dizzy and I have bad knees, and he just was not responding to it anyway. 

Using the prong I was quickly able to teach Kodi not to run out the door and down the steps and to not pull on his leash. Even so, sometimes, he will still pull if he gets frightened, so for walks he wears a no-pull harness or the prong. It seems odd that dogs will pull so hard on a standard collar to the point they are choking, gasping for air, and gagging, but won't pull on the prong collar even though it seems not to hurt them as nearly as much.

Since Kodi has long hair, I found that his hair was catching in the links and sometimes the collar would pull his hair and hurt him, so I got a headband and cut it long enough to cover the links and sewed it onto them. The collar no longer catches his hair.

I wouldn't use a choke collar for a dog that pulls a lot. In my opinion, they are only acceptable if the dog already is trained not to pull. I also would not use a plain collar for a dog that pulls a lot. Both can be very damaging to the dog's throat. If you use a prong, keep a very light touch on the leash, don't use it to punish and just use it until you are certain he has given up pulling.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

As others have said, be sure its properly fitted. An improperly fitted prong is more likely to fail at a really bad time leaving your dog loose. This is a tool best for short term use. Training is still a very important part and being careful not to allow the dog to become collar smart.

Buster has worn an Easy Walk harness for over a year. My failure was using that as a 'fix' to his leash pulling and not training him to walk nicely while using the Easy Walk to manage him. Monday (3/14) he almost got me hit twice in one walk while wearing the Easy Walk and almost escaped that. He was pulling so hard that he came very close to flipping upside down which would have allowed him to kick his front legs out of the harness, Ive seen him do it before. That day I ordered a prong. Tuesday (3/22) was our first walk with it. He's making progress and Im not making the same mistake of thinking the prong will fix him. This time we're training with the intent of leaving the prong in a drawer.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

I use a prong on the GSD. It works, but it's a band-aid (like any other training collar). If we're going some place really exciting, I pack it just in case. He doesn't need it as much, but it's something I like to keep on hand just in case his brain goes in reverse 
I don't like harnesses, and have yet to find one that most dogs don't pull through.



JuneBud said:


> I use a prong with Kodi. It helped a lot to teach him not to pull. He would pull really hard occasionally and I didn't want him to hurt himself so we went to the prong. I first tried a no-pull harness, but eventually he started pulling against that too. He does well on his regular collar now for potty trips to the yard. I did try to do the loose leash training (reversing direction when he pulls, etc.) but I just can't handle that. It makes me dizzy and I have bad knees, and he just was not responding to it anyway.


I see a lot of bad stigma with prong collars, but my personal take is I'd rather see a dog being walked on a prong (like I do with my dog), than not being walked at all because walks are so un-enjoyable for the owner that they tend to skip them. I think prongs are actually more humane than slip chain (aka choke) collars; prongs are limited in how far they can tighten where traditional chain-slip collars are not. I've used choke collars in the past; with success. But given the choice between the two, I'd pick prong over choke


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

I'm not a gadget trainer and i especially don't think gadgets like this have any place in basic dog training.

Its about training training training not gadgets gadgets gadgets they only mask the problem.


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

katielou said:


> I'm not a gadget trainer and i especially don't think gadgets like this have any place in basic dog training.
> 
> Its about training training training not gadgets gadgets gadgets they only mask the problem.


I actually disagree with that. The gadgets are supposed to be used as training aids! The same as any other training tool. Yes I'm even referring to clickers there.

It is human laziness that sees these tools always used as opposed to putting the effort into a training plan etc.

Mind you that is completely off topic. On topic, it depends on the coat. Over here the Nylon collars are referred to as "Dominant Dog Collars" from memory Leerburg also has information about using them. Prongs are sadly illegal now over here thanks to some brainless "purely positive" advocates, we don't get the choice to use them. If we do, we get charged for animal cruelty.

Purely positive methods can work, but for a lot of dogs they don't. I have one they don't work on. I use a mainly positive method but I still need corrections. He'd be a monster without them :laugh:

If your dogs fur is really thick around their neck then they are a lot less effective. I think it comes down to your choice!


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

I was really turned off with the prong collar and thought it was torture equipment. Now, I really like it and it isn't what I originally thought. First of all, Sophie is the only one whos training really benefits. I just use verbal corrections with my other dogs or maybe a gentle tug on the leash. Sophie, on the other hand, has a mind of her own. She seems to try 100 different ways to get what she wants. All other collars did not stop her from pulling, she just found another creative way to pull even if she has to walk backwards.

With the prong collar, I don't have to correct her.... I can use positive words and rewards. She doesn't tug at all. It was almost an instant loose leash. I don't use the prong very much anymore but sometimes, she has these days where her mischevious grin appears and I just know she is up to no good.


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

JustTess said:


> I was really turned off with the prong collar and thought it was torture equipment. Now, I really like it and it isn't what I originally thought. First of all, Sophie is the only one whos training really benefits. I just use verbal corrections with my other dogs or maybe a gentle tug on the leash. Sophie, on the other hand, has a mind of her own. She seems to try 100 different ways to get what she wants. All other collars did not stop her from pulling, she just found another creative way to pull even if she has to walk backwards.
> 
> With the prong collar, I don't have to correct her.... I can use positive words and rewards. She doesn't tug at all. It was almost an instant loose leash. I don't use the prong very much anymore but sometimes, she has these days where her mischevious grin appears and I just know she is up to no good.


Exactly, most dogs will not even try to pull when wearing one. Their main benefit is preventing injury to the trachea. Next benefit is the stubborn dog learns more quickly not to pull. I always use either a no-pull harness or the prong on walks, but I don't believe the harness is comfortable for the dog - the snap on the leash seems to bump him, and it has a wrong feel about it as the dog's shoulder movement comes through the leash to your hand. The prong is totally comfortable for the dog if he doesn't pull.



> If your dogs fur is really thick around their neck then they are a lot less effective. I think it comes down to your choice!


My dog has very long fur and the prong works well for him. The only problem I had with his hair is that it would get caught between the links, so I cut a hair band long enough to cover the links and sewed it in place. Now we have no more hair pulling and the collar still works.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I like head collars better than prong and choke collars. With head collars there is no training required, you just put them on and that's it. Of course they are just a training tool and should be faded out as quickly as possible. It bugs me in training class where sooo many people have head collars on their dogs, and keep wrenching their dog's head around. The dogs play up a lot, but most of the time it seems to be because they are struggling against the head collar. It's just a TOOL to manage the dog while it's being trained not to pull, not a fix.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Head collars can become very dangerous to dogs that do not like them. Head collars can do way more neck damage than any chain collar or prong. I do not like head collars or harnesses. The only time I would use a harness is when we are doing canicross or biking. Other than that I like my chain collars, I do not have a dog the needs a prong. If the prong works for you go for it, just make sure you get someone to teach you to use it properly.


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

I can understand head collars for giant breeds. They have been scientifically proven to cause tendon and muscular damage to smaller dogs necks. Dogs are not horses, nor are they goats, mules, donkeys or alpaca's. Their muscle structure is completely different and should be treated as such. I'd sooner see my dog in a check/choke chain (which will happen over my dead body) than in a head collar.

The worst thing I have ever seen was a pomeranian being walked by a young couple in a head collar. They had the leash tight so the poor thing was trying to keep up with them it's head pointed up to the sky


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

A&B said:


> I can understand head collars for giant breeds. They have been scientifically proven to cause tendon and muscular damage to smaller dogs necks. Dogs are not horses, nor are they goats, mules, donkeys or alpaca's. Their muscle structure is completely different and should be treated as such. I'd sooner see my dog in a check/choke chain (which will happen over my dead body) than in a head collar.
> 
> The worst thing I have ever seen was a pomeranian being walked by a young couple in a head collar. They had the leash tight so the poor thing was trying to keep up with them it's head pointed up to the sky


Suzanne Clothier wrote an excellent article on choosing training equiptment, as well as some problems with head collars. I've seen head collars work wonders on extremely exhuberant dogs (it seems to take the over-enthusiasm down a notch, so they're able to think a bit better). But other than that, I'm not a huge fan of them.



katielou said:


> I'm not a gadget trainer and i especially don't think gadgets like this have any place in basic dog training.
> 
> Its about training training training not gadgets gadgets gadgets they only mask the problem.


I'd rather see a dog wearing a gadget than not, rather than rehearsing bad behavior over and over and over again.



JustTess said:


> I was really turned off with the prong collar and thought it was torture equipment. Now, I really like it and it isn't what I originally thought. First of all, Sophie is the only one whos training really benefits. I just use verbal corrections with my other dogs or maybe a gentle tug on the leash. Sophie, on the other hand, has a mind of her own. She seems to try 100 different ways to get what she wants. All other collars did not stop her from pulling, she just found another creative way to pull even if she has to walk backwards.
> 
> With the prong collar, I don't have to correct her.... I can use positive words and rewards. She doesn't tug at all. It was almost an instant loose leash. I don't use the prong very much anymore but sometimes, she has these days where her mischevious grin appears and I just know she is up to no good.


Thats why I chose a prong on my GSD...he wasn't a horrible puller, but (at 8 months) he would see something and dart, and sent me flat on my back on an icy pavement. Not only did I want to not break any bones in the future, but I also didn't want him going for months rehearsing pulling whenever he saw something distractable. A prong made taking my dog out enjoyable (and safe for us both), rather than saying "he pulls and I don't know how to train through it, so we'll just stay home".


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Using a front hooking harness worked for us www.SoftTouchConcepts.com
those work great, we used that in addition to stopping when they pulled and/or turning around and walking the other way


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

You guys are open minded when it comes to prongs, chokes & e collars. I'm on this other forum where the members are mostly from the UK & the mere mention of a prong, choke or e collar warrants a reaction similar to what the poster was saying they were drowning puppies or something lol, the reaction is that profound.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I'm not a gadget trainer and i especially don't think gadgets like this have any place in basic dog training.
> 
> Its about training training training not gadgets gadgets gadgets they only mask the problem.


I would be interested in knowing your experience with dogs, how many years training, how many different breeds etc. The more experienced trainers while not using some gadgets occasionally meet that dog that does need a gadget (tool) not normally used to work through a problem. Just curious.

What methods are working for you.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I like head collars better than prong and choke collars. With head collars there is no training required, you just put them on and that's it. Of course they are just a training tool and should be faded out as quickly as possible. It bugs me in training class where sooo many people have head collars on their dogs, and keep wrenching their dog's head around. The dogs play up a lot, but most of the time it seems to be because they are struggling against the head collar. It's just a TOOL to manage the dog while it's being trained not to pull, not a fix.


Honestly, if my choices were between a prong and a head halter, I'd probably choose the prong. In my experience there is a lot of training (as in desensitization) necessary for a lot of dogs to be able to accept a head halter. I think they are a natural aversive for many dogs. And that they frequently are partially effecitve simply by surpressing behavior. I'm not a big fan of either. And I'm not a fan of any management equipment as a long-term solution.



A&B said:


> I actually disagree with that. The gadgets are supposed to be used as training aids! The same as any other training tool. Yes I'm even referring to clickers there.
> 
> It is human laziness that sees these tools always used as opposed to putting the effort into a training plan etc.
> 
> ...


I'd like to know who you know who is a "purely positive" trainer, and what, exactly, that means. Someone who uses only positive reinforcement? Someone who uses only positive reinforcement and positive punishment? I've never actually met one and suspect they are, in fact, a mythological creature.


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> I'd like to know who you know who is a "purely positive" trainer, and what, exactly, that means. Someone who uses only positive reinforcement? Someone who uses only positive reinforcement and positive punishment? I've never actually met one and suspect they are, in fact, a mythological creature.


Over here, purely positive trainers use a NRM rather an an actual correction. Anything incorrect is literally ignored and only the good behaviour is actually aknowledged, yes that is including Jumping, Nipping, Biting, Barking, Digging, anything destructive etc.

In my experience their dogs are nightmares because they can literally get away with anything. There are 3 people in my street alone that train this way. The dogs have NEVER had the word "No" directed at them, never been corrected for anything. I check outside before I leave the house, if any of them are out I now refuse to leave the house because it inevitebly results in me being jumped all over, my dog being harrassed and me yelling at my neighbours to get their moron of a dog away from me. Heaven forbid I actually try to get the dog away from me, they hurl abuse at me for being cruel to their dog! These are what I'm referring to as pp. 

I do know that purely positive (meaning no positive punishment, no negative reinforcement, a little negative punishment [taking the reward away]) trainers, when doing it correctly can get amazing results from their dogs.

I got in trouble at my puppy school for telling my dog "No" when he was nipping at me - "purely positive" has been taken to extremes here.

ETA: You are very lucky not to have met them, sadly they do exist.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

A&B said:


> Over here, purely positive trainers use a NRM rather an an actual correction. Anything incorrect is literally ignored and only the good behaviour is actually aknowledged, yes that is including Jumping, Nipping, Biting, Barking, Digging, anything destructive etc.
> 
> In my experience their dogs are nightmares because they can literally get away with anything. There are 3 people in my street alone that train this way. The dogs have NEVER had the word "No" directed at them, never been corrected for anything. I check outside before I leave the house, if any of them are out I now refuse to leave the house because it inevitebly results in me being jumped all over, my dog being harrassed and me yelling at my neighbours to get their moron of a dog away from me. Heaven forbid I actually try to get the dog away from me, they hurl abuse at me for being cruel to their dog! These are what I'm referring to as pp.
> 
> ...


They like to think they're purely positive (reinforcement), but even a NRM can be aversive, so those people who claim to be PR Only are those to run, not walk, away from. 
I briefly delt with a woman who claimed to be a behaviorist, and claimed to be PR *ONLY*. Yes, instantly I was afraid xD She had a mixed breed dog that she claimed was actually a very rare breed (aquired from the shelter, as well! Imagine that...) that isn't seen around here. Her dog lunged at other dogs and animals, jumped on people, nipped as you tried to leave his space, was destructive and barked constantly. (Of course, even though he lunged, jumped, and would drag her all over Gods green earth, she insisted he could only wear a comfortable harness and a flexi-leash...) If she was indeed a trainer or behaviorist, I would have ran the other way before paying her for any advice. She also didn't care for the way I was raising my pup (NILIF and Control Unleashed). 
Many reasons why I love the trainer I work with--she's extremely PR *BASED*. But she doesn't claim to be (nor needs to be) PR *ONLY*. She also seems to understand the difference between how one thing can be aversive to a dog like Tag, and NOT averisve to a dog like Auz while he's in drive (such as hitting the end of a short leash, which has happened to both my dogs before with very different results. Auz was like "Who cares? There's a KID OVER THERE!! <3) and Tag was like "OMG, I think I'm dying...")

_Purely positive methods can work, but for a lot of dogs they don't. I have one they don't work on. I use a mainly positive method but I still need corrections. He'd be a monster without them _

I don't think purely positive methods can work as well as a lot of people think. Tag (my youngest papillon) is extremely (and I *DO MEAN EXTREMELY!* handler sensitive. I have to watch my body language and expression when working him in obedience, because if I look too rigid he shuts down and walks away. Auz (my GSD) could really care less about what I think, he's very much the "whats in it for me" type. Not to say he's a complete jerk (erm...COMPLETE...), but he's a very different guy than my other two softer dogs. PP wouldn't work on either one of them IMO.
Just 2 nights ago I decided I would start re-tweaking Tags contacts for agility. I wanted him to rush to the contact board, put his two back feet on, and wait until I said "OK". He'd rush to the board, put two on, two off, and I'd prance in circles, clap my hands, say "Oh Taggie you're so cute", etc, and he'd wag his tail and keep his feet where they belonged. At one point he got it in his head that he'd lie down on the board (like he would for the pause table). About 3 or 4 times he did this, and I withheld any kind of treat. I called him off, told him his contact word and he dove into a down. I should have just quit, but I got irritated and said "stop that". He slowly walked into his crate and laid down as if I had just shot bullets in his direction. A few minutes later I called him out, did ONE contact behavior, clicked and gave him a treat and let him go. But a simple "stop that" was aversive enough to him to cause him to exit, stage left...
OTOH, If I'm working with Auz, and he's acting like a goon I can say "stop that" or "quit!" and the only thing that happens is he stops doing what he was doing before I told him not to.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

That's not training, that's wishful thinking.


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

wvasko said:


> That's not training, that's wishful thinking.


I think that is putting it nicely! IMO it's idiocy! :laugh:


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

I just started using prongs on my 2. I had Bo 1st , he was good on leash ..not much to correct there. He is a velcro dog. Enter Greta , velcro dog 2. Not only are they velcro'ed to me , they are velcro'ed to each other. But , like any 2 siblings/friends together constantly they became a little competitive. They each like to be one head ahead of the other. This resulted in some pulling.

Greta is a Mastiff..Bo is a 90 pound mix breed. I am a 120 pound 4'11 woman . Normally I should say..now I am a 160 pound 4'11 7 months pregnant woman . 

I chose to try the prong because I know it can get their attention with a gentler correction . It works nicely. Just having it on seems to keep them from pulling these days. I'll try going without it again once I am not a waddling feeb. 

I know from trying it first , that with a slip chain with my my size vs their size I would need to deliver a stronger correction that I feel is fair for a dog's trachea . Greta had a horrible experience with a catch pole that shredded her tongue. She almost put a Mastiff shaped hole in the wall of my house when I tried the gentle leader , and it put her into instant fear mode. 

So , in our case , a prong was a good choice and is working well for now.

I will say that you really do need to make sure they fit right. I watched a few videos and double checked against the directions that it was sitting properly ( up high on the neck) and was the proper tightness. Too loose , and it can come apart on you.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Auz was like "Who cares? There's a KID OVER THERE!! <3) and Tag was like "OMG, I think I'm dying...")


Such a simple sentence that explains so much.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

wvasko said:


> I would be interested in knowing your experience with dogs, how many years training, how many different breeds etc. The more experienced trainers while not using some gadgets occasionally meet that dog that does need a gadget (tool) not normally used to work through a problem. Just curious.
> 
> What methods are working for you.


My father owns a shoot in England and i was training gundogs with him before i even knew what dog training was. Mostly pointers, Brittany's and vizsla's as well as the more usual springers i still train with him whenever i am back in England.
My mother competed SCH dogs with my Grandfather and i was a huge part of that world until i was about 13 and i moved into my own ideas and started out in the obedience world where i have been for about the last 14 years.

Other than the dogs my parents had my list of personal dogs has been working line GSD's, Brittany, Akita's, Australian shepherds and Staffordshire bull terriers. 

I'm involved with my local SCH club and train with them. I started my Akita's with them about 5 years ago.
My Brittany is just a pet he's a old man but he was trained to be on a shoot in England.
And my Aussie we herd and use to compete in obedience (not in the USA anymore because that is not a world i want to be a part of. Far to much about the people and not the dogs but i did compete for about 6 months over here)

I am not saying that the tools should never be used because every dog is different but i think (and please don't pull the experienced trainer thing on me because i know plenty of very experienced trainers that never touch gadgets) that most of the time they are not needed and they are very very much over used. In a life or death situation? Sure go ahead a use one through a trainer (i don't think you should be able to buy them in a store only through a trainer).

I think in general this country uses far more gadgets on dogs than any i have ever lived in.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I am not saying that the tools should never be used because every dog is different but i think (and please don't pull the experienced trainer thing on me because i know plenty of very experienced trainers that never touch gadgets) that most of the time they are not needed and they are very very much over used. In a life or death situation? Sure go ahead a use one through a trainer (i don't think you should be able to buy them in a store only through a trainer).


Not trying to pull the "very experienced trainer thing" just curious. As far as your opinion on gadgets it surely is your right to have an opinion and train your dogs as you see fit.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

But, they are not effective trainers, right? I was looking more for a name I could check out to see if they were truly purely positive. Having met well known clicker trainers from US, Canada, Great Britain and Continental Europe, I haven't met any that do what you mention (and none who actually use an NRM) I am a *usually* positive reinforcement trainer, but I don't ignore incorrect behavior. If it is a useful behavior which I'm not looking for this very minute, but might be looking for later, I will not mark it. If it is a rude or undesirable behavior, I manage the situation to keep it from being rewarding to a dog, and arrange to make something else MORE rewarding. Honestly, I don't think dogs know the difference between "no" and NRMs such as "whoops", "oops", "uh oh" or "no cookie for you" Any of them may be an interrupter, a punisher or simply noise, depending on how they are used.





A&B said:


> Over here, purely positive trainers use a NRM rather an an actual correction. Anything incorrect is literally ignored and only the good behaviour is actually aknowledged, yes that is including Jumping, Nipping, Biting, Barking, Digging, anything destructive etc.
> 
> In my experience their dogs are nightmares because they can literally get away with anything. There are 3 people in my street alone that train this way. The dogs have NEVER had the word "No" directed at them, never been corrected for anything. I check outside before I leave the house, if any of them are out I now refuse to leave the house because it inevitebly results in me being jumped all over, my dog being harrassed and me yelling at my neighbours to get their moron of a dog away from me. Heaven forbid I actually try to get the dog away from me, they hurl abuse at me for being cruel to their dog! These are what I'm referring to as pp.
> 
> ...





wvasko said:


> That's not training, that's wishful thinking.


Wondering to what you are responding?


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> But, they are not effective trainers, right? I was looking more for a name I could check out to see if they were truly purely positive. Having met well known clicker trainers from US, Canada, Great Britain and Continental Europe, I haven't met any that do what you mention (and none who actually use an NRM) I am a *usually* positive reinforcement trainer, but I don't ignore incorrect behavior. If it is a useful behavior which I'm not looking for this very minute, but might be looking for later, I will mot mark it. If it is a rude or undesirable behavior, I manage the situation to keep it from being rewarding to a dog, and arrange to make something else MORE rewarding. Honestly, I don't think dogs know the difference between "no" and NRMs such as "whoops", "oops", "uh oh" or "no cookie for you" Any of them may be an interrupter, a punisher or simply noise, depending on how they are used.


No they're not. I'm sure the ones used by the RSPCA here are though? 

I don't have any names for you. I refuse to indulge purely positive in the sense that I have just described. I also don't have a "trainer" that I go to myself.

I have a Kelpie cross (see sig) and my NRM is "uh-uh" any time he hears me say "uh-uh" he tries something else. I find it helps his shaping & I do what works best for he & I. I also don't always use the clicker to shape exercises (sometimes I need another limb lol). He's dominant, pushy, tenacious and can be incredibly stubborn. Yes I'm describing a lot of working dogs there.

Undesirable behaviours are met with either a growly "ach" sound or a very stern "NO", I will use collar corrections when called for. From what you've just said - with managing the situation and making something else more rewarding - yes it makes sense, unfortunately for me that's not always feasible. The correction is a deterrant for the behaviour. So say he's jumping on strangers, he jumps on the stranger, he gets a collar correction, he then gets told to sit and is rewarded for that. Without that correction he'll jump, jump, jump, jump etc because the jumping itself is rewarding to him. In saying that, I train on a flat collar, my dog doesn't pull, will only jump when commanded (mostly, he still jumps on me when I've been out but I don't correct that either). He works well, is great with problem solving and a pleasure to train.

Apologies to the OP for going so far off track!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

A&B said:


> No they're not. I'm sure the ones used by the RSPCA here are though?
> 
> I don't have any names for you. I refuse to indulge purely positive in the sense that I have just described. I also don't have a "trainer" that I go to myself.
> 
> ...


I have no idea how the RSPCA does things. I know if I have a jumping dog, I will set it up so the jumpee can walk away (negative punishment) if the dog jumps up and give the dog attention and treats for four-on-the-floor or a sit. I've also found one form of food zen to be very useful to explain to even not-very-trained dogs (including shelter dogs) understand that when you jump up, food goes away (again negative punishment) If you can get your dog to sit after a collar pop, why not just cue him to sit? (note to moderators, if we need to start a new thread, fine with me. Last time I got my hands slapped big time by one of the powers what be. Fortunately it was during a week-long early morning til night freestyle conference and I didn't have much time on the computer anyway, so it wasn't terribly effective positive punishment)


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## BrittanieJo (Sep 23, 2010)

We have used a prong collar for every dog we have owned. We thought with Aggie we would go the harness route. Then we realized we have a houdini on our hands. It's not that she pulls (only when excited) but she can get out of EVERY collar and harness, easy lead included so we went to the prong. It's amazing and to be perfectly honest I have no problem using whatever YOU need to use to make walks pleasant for you and your dog. Aggie walks perfectly fine on a lead w/o the prong but she can slip her collar no problem (even the greyhound designed ones, this dog is IMPRESSIVE lol) so the prong gives me peace of mind that if she decides to try to go see whatever she wants over there she can't do so without me going with her . We get some not nice looks and I simply ignore it. Aggie is safe, her prong is fitted correctly and she looks/acts like a pro on her lead. I agree w everyone though make sure the prong is fitted correctly or it's useless and can do some damage to the dog. v


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

katielou said:


> I think in general this country uses far more gadgets on dogs than any i have ever lived in.


And in general, but gadgets can make life easier


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Wondering to what you are responding?


I was responding to the quote below as I *usually* do not ignore incorrect behaviour.



> Over here, purely positive trainers use a NRM rather an an actual correction. Anything incorrect is literally ignored and only the good behaviour is actually aknowledged,


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I am not anti prong, but prefer not to use them. The only dog I walk that wears a prong is Cohiba the great dane. He's not generally a puller but he is not super well trained AND is intact so when he wants to go sniff something or mark something he tries to go full tilt to do so. The prong is simply "power steering" in this case. I only use it in the winter when it is slippery on our route, otherwise we go flat collar and continue to premack the "go sniff". I would much rather someone use a prong than a choke, whether that be a metal or nylon one.

Head collars I only use on dogs that lunge/snap/bite so I can have control over the mouth/teeth and are only used until the behaviour has been modified, I do not use them as anti pull devices.

I prefer anti pull harnesses (front attachment) on most dogs, houdini dogs get the harness plus a martingale and the martingale and front ring of the harness are both attached to the leash, keeps the front of the harness up where it belongs and is also a safety if they do get out of it (though properly fitted it shouldn't be happening) and is helpful for the shorter legged dogs.

Teeny tinies get a vest type harness to prevent neck issues. 

All of these items are management tools for me, especially since I do group walks. All dogs need TRAINING SANS tools to help improve walks in the long run. I think the silky leash training, which teaches a dog to move away from collar pressure (ie stops the opposition reflex, makes it conscious) is a really good way to positively condition a different response to pulling. Premack is also another way to deal with pulling.

As for the purely positive..well, I'm a positive trainer, but my dogs don't get away with stuff. Ever. I use management when I can't be working on it, work on it when I can and use negative punishment and very occasionally use R- in the form of a leash settle to deal with unwanted behaviour while TRAINING a better response. But anyone thinking training loose leash walking only happens ON A WALK is setting themselves up to fail.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I was responding to the quote below as I *usually* do not ignore incorrect behaviour.


Ah, okay, thanks. The posts didn't seem to be in order and I wasn't sure. I don't ignore incorrect behavior either. Though what I choose to do about it might be different from some people's responses.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

A&B said:


> Over here, purely positive trainers use a NRM rather an an actual correction. Anything incorrect is literally ignored and only the good behaviour is actually aknowledged, yes that is including Jumping, Nipping, Biting, Barking, Digging, anything destructive etc.
> 
> In my experience their dogs are nightmares because they can literally get away with anything. There are 3 people in my street alone that train this way. The dogs have NEVER had the word "No" directed at them, never been corrected for anything. I check outside before I leave the house, if any of them are out I now refuse to leave the house because it inevitebly results in me being jumped all over, my dog being harrassed and me yelling at my neighbours to get their moron of a dog away from me. Heaven forbid I actually try to get the dog away from me, they hurl abuse at me for being cruel to their dog! These are what I'm referring to as pp.
> 
> ...


I know a lot of dogs like that, heck I know a lot of kids like that too. When my puppy is naughty she loses privileges, the one she hates the most is off lead privilege. If she doesn't come or stop chasing when I ask her to or generally doesn't listen, then she loses off led privileges. She also knows 'no', leave it, & drop it & I'm not afraid to bark that at either of my dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> I know a lot of dogs like that, heck I know a lot of kids like that too. When my puppy is naughty she loses privileges, the one she hates the most is off lead privilege. If she doesn't come or stop chasing when I ask her to or generally doesn't listen, then she loses off led privileges. She also knows 'no', leave it, & drop it & I'm not afraid to bark that at either of my dogs.


My wife does the same with me, a bark, and no off lead priveleges.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> My wife does the same with me, a bark, and no off lead priveleges.


You must have been very well behaved to have successfully completed the Tour de France on a unicycle :rockon:


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## Shandwill (Jul 23, 2010)

Where's the damn "like" button when you need one?! ;D


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

A&B said:


> No they're not. I'm sure the ones used by the RSPCA here are though?
> 
> I don't have any names for you. I refuse to indulge purely positive in the sense that I have just described. I also don't have a "trainer" that I go to myself.
> 
> ...


same here, I have cattle dogs, a breed that is bred specifically to meet force with force & my Izze (piced below in my sig) only a very gruffly barked adversive will make her stop what she is doing. Jo is the polar opposite & will stop that she is doing at the slightest utterance of an adversive it never ceases to amaze me how different dogs can be.


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> same here, I have cattle dogs, a breed that is bred specifically to meet force with force & my Izze (piced below in my sig) only a very gruffly barked adversive will make her stop what she is doing. Jo is the polar opposite & will stop that she is doing at the slightest utterance of an adversive it never ceases to amaze me how different dogs can be.


Your girls are gorgeous! I had BC's & ACD's on the farm growing up and the differences between them still amazes me. We always had very strong willed ACD's and BC's that would flip over backwards in their haste to do something to please you.

Both require a different response but both still needed the aversives (if in different measures).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> You must have been very well behaved to have successfully completed the Tour de France on a unicycle :rockon:


You do realize I was buzzed the whole tour and don't remember much.
Lance and I are both Cancer survivors, I can't speak for him but I did what I had to do to finish.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

A&B said:


> Your girls are gorgeous! I had BC's & ACD's on the farm growing up and the differences between them still amazes me. We always had very strong willed ACD's and BC's that would flip over backwards in their haste to do something to please you.
> 
> Both require a different response but both still needed the aversives (if in different measures).


thanks! Yours are too Jo, the lighter colored puppy is a rescue & we think that she is ACD/BC because when I go to let her out of their pen if I have to go somewhere she gets down BC style & stalks lol. Also when she chases something, I use her to keep the guinea fowl away from the houses on the guest ranch here I see Bringing behavior not driving behavior. Its not a full proof of breed just a hunch lol.


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

The pictures of the dog in my sig is the same dog growing up. Youngest picture left, oldest right lol.

That does sound like BC behaviour. That's rather fascinating actually. Does she show any other BC traits?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

when she chases birds, I'm training her to be a bird chaser lol, she keeps the guinea fowl away from the cabins around here. I see hers & Izze's approach to be much different. Izze's is very direct & straight, Jo's is more semicircled & sweeping, more like fetching behavior then driving behavior. Of course that isn't a dwfinate that she is a BC mix, but I have quite a bit of experience with acd's & she is very soft & sensitive to the slightest change in my mood, esp if I get irritated. Izze is to but in a different way, she gets crazy enthusiastic to work for me... I know it sounds weird but its true, one day I will make a vid of it lol.

Of course this could be a product of her upbringing which is questionable, wereally don't know what might have happened to her, but its a guess.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I don't think purely positive methods can work as well as a lot of people think.


I think they can work after behaviors have been developed/established. For example, if I just want to mark/reward Wally for lying down and waiting on his own, or staying behind "the line" to the kitchen on his own, etc, I could do that.

I think if the dog also tends to follow your lead or has good discipline, it seems to work. I've been trying something of an "100% R+" days to see how/where it can actually work. Even then, there's some stuff that just will NOT be rewarded, but Wally very rarely does those things anyway.

I don't think it's possible during the teaching phase unless the dog happens to just to do it from the start, which is probably unlikely for most behaviors. Even shaping, which is as non-corrective as it gets, imo, uses -P if only to trigger a bit of the extinction burst response/trigger different spin on the current behavior.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I think they can work after behaviors have been developed/established. For example, if I just want to mark/reward Wally for lying down and waiting on his own, or staying behind "the line" to the kitchen on his own, etc, I could do that.
> 
> I think if the dog also tends to follow your lead or has good discipline, it seems to work. I've been trying something of an "100% R+" days to see how/where it can actually work. Even then, there's some stuff that just will NOT be rewarded, but Wally very rarely does those things anyway.
> 
> I don't think it's possible during the teaching phase unless the dog happens to just to do it from the start, which is probably unlikely for most behaviors. Even shaping, which is as non-corrective as it gets, imo, uses -P if only to trigger a bit of the extinction burst response/trigger different spin on the current behavior.


I think you're right. It's really hard to say for sure because every dogs' temperament is so different, what my Tag views as aversive doesn't even phase Auz if he's in a drivey mode. He's ran into the fence/walls/etc so many times when he was "after" something that he's (in the past) slightly bloodied his own nose and didn't seem to notice. When he's lying down, dozing, I bump him and he screams and looks at me like "WHY are you trying to KILL ME????" 
I think when the old adrenaline is pumping, humans and dogs (and other animals I'm sure) can do things they never could do without that rush. I witnessed my mom during a certain rush of adrenaline; she successfully picked up a 6 seater dining room table and heaved it into the back of the truck. (This is the person who can't hardly lift a sack of 50 pound horse feed on a normal day). It was pure adrenaline. 
If I'm working Tag on basic things at home, a simple "aht aht" is crushing to him (VERY difficult to work with in some instances, because even a slight change of posture can make him become uncertain). When he's on the agility field, if he makes a wrong choice it doesn't seem to bother him as much. Adrenaline and all.


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## TankGrrl66 (Mar 29, 2010)

I love prong collars, for a few reasons. For one, with people like me who are on the lighter/smaller side...it is good for public safety. You remain in control.

They are also pretty black or white for the dog. They pull, they feel discomfort. They want to act stupid when they know how to act right, they get a correction. Pretty clean cut. I have never heard of a dog who could get out of one.
But I have met plenty who just fold as soon as they have one put on. 
So for you, OP, since you have tried other tools and worked your way up to it, I would say go for it.
However, they add drive to a dog...they can even create issues. I knew a dog in my agility class who would start to pull toward other dogs. As soon as you see that collar tighten, he got all amped up and would go nuts! 

It is best to just teach your dog to sit/down/whatever and look at you under distraction. Correcting with the prong when, say, your dog reacts to another can quickly escalate your dog's reactivity. He is staring at something and feeling pain...he could make that connection. If you want to correct, you will correct the dog forever. Because they have to make the mistake to get the correction. But teach them to just sit and look at you? Works like a charm...

So they have that against them(adding drive), and the fact that many people do not fit them properly. Which brings me to: *Yes, due to the nature of the links...they can(I have only had this happen once) POP OFF. You may want to use a backup collar, or a prong that has a buckle built into it*

Personally, I trust them more than haltis. My older GSD will only behave in a prong or a flat nylon/leather collar. The halti? Trust me, I was totally on board. He walks beautifully in one. But as soon as something goes down? He JETS backwards and whips his head around...not a pretty sight. So it was back to the prong.

Don't get me wrong-I really like them. Taught my mother's dog to wear one. But my GSDs? I've had the best success in prongs.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> what my Tag views as aversive doesn't even phase Auz if he's in a drivey mode


This is my new perspective on what "positive training" means to me. Punishment isn't evil. Punishment ends behavior. Some behavior needs to be ended. That's not a bad thing. You can do it in a way that scares the crap out of the dog so he's afraid and avoidant, or you can do it in a way that doesn't.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I use a prong on Hawkeye for training obedience and ONLY for training obedience. For training Tracking he wears a Harness, for Herding he has a flat buckle collar on, for Agility he's naked, for Conformation a chain is used. All tools to use to train specific behaviors.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> This is my new perspective on what "positive training" means to me. Punishment isn't evil. Punishment ends behavior. Some behavior needs to be ended. That's not a bad thing. You can do it in a way that scares the crap out of the dog so he's afraid and avoidant, or you can do it in a way that doesn't.


Yeah, but I prefer to end behavior by cuing another behavior. I guess that's the "alternative behavior" approach.

Performing behavior B automatically ends behavior A. For example, if Wally is chewing on some toilet paper - I could punish that, or I could call for something else.

If he's chasing a cat - I could punish that, or call for another behavior that he'll do, which ends chasing the cat.

Just my perspective on it. For me, punishment occurs either:

-During shaping and then it's not so much "punishment" in that I want him to stop what he's doing, I want him to "do it harder" or faster or do it, but add to it - but technically, it's -P/mild extinction. At least I think it is - it might just be him trying something else to trigger a reward. He hasn't "lost" anything, just what he did got not response when he was hopeful of one.

-When all attempts to get an alternative behavior fail - though this is rare with him since I'm going to call a behavior with a very high/long history of reward over the years.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

KBLover said:


> Yeah, but I prefer to end behavior by cuing another behavior. I guess that's the "alternative behavior" approach.
> 
> Performing behavior B automatically ends behavior A. For example, if Wally is chewing on some toilet paper - I could punish that, or I could call for something else.
> 
> ...


I agree with this. It makes so much more sense to try to train an appropriate behavior in order to end an inappropriate one. I think that it's especially important to train an alternate behavior with breeds that REALLY REALLY want to misbehave. Such as a northern breed bred to pull. Dog's can't just do NOTHING, they have to be doing something, especially dogs with an intense desire to be doing something. If you just punish a behavior in an attempt to extinguish it, all that drive and instinct is working against you. Why not use it to your advantage and funnel your dog's drive into something acceptable? It always baffles me when people say you have to be extra harsh with strong willed dogs, or that PR never works with their strong willed dog, when maybe if you guided that strong willed dog into an appropriate direction, he'd perform the correct behaviors with just as much enthusiasm.

In regards to the OP, I only really dislike prong collars when they're used as a means of simply managing a really large/powerful dog. Contrary to what people believe, prong collars are not a "self training" tool. I strongly believe that unless you're experienced in training yourself, you should ONLY use a prong if you're working with a good trainer. Use the prong as an aid while actually training your dog to stay in the heel position, do silky leash, etc. If you use your prong as a management tool, it'll probably never ever come off again. And well, you haven't really trained your dog anything if that's the case, have you? That being said, I think in the vast majority of cases, prongs are completely unnecessary to train your dog how to walk on a leash properly, and most are only used as a bandaid because they get quick results without any training. 

Also, I would NEVER recommend that anyone use a prong on a fearful, reactive or aggressive dog. It would be incredibly dangerous, and frankly, stupid, to use a prong in such a situation.

BTW, it really bugs me when people say prong collars don't hurt the dog. PUH-LEASE. If it didn't hurt the dog it wouldn't work. What would be your dog's incentive not to pull? It's not a mind control device. Not saying that they're evil or terrible or should be outlawed or anything, but don't sugar-coat it to make yourself feel better about using it. And if you've put one on your own neck, did you see what it feels like to yank it? Because it's not SUPPOSED to hurt when it's just resting on the skin, otherwise it wouldn't work, either (The dog has to distinguish between correction and no correction).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

KBLover said:


> If he's chasing a cat - I could punish that, or call for another behavior that he'll do, which ends chasing the cat.


That's what I'm saying. The behavior of chasing the cat has decreased. That is the definition of punishment. That's the point I'm making; being afraid of the word punishment and dancing around it isn't helpful (the pure positive fallacy). I've found that the label isn't as important as what you're doing. E-collars are based on reinforcement. I've seen some descriptions of their use that suggest the might be R+ (Unfortunately I don't have a great enough understanding to repeat them here, and in the retriever forum I am on, what quadrant something is is not something that is discussed). That doesn't mean I'd consider them a tool of R+ training. In my opinion, it's pretty clear (and more important) if something uses discomfort, fear, or aversion, or if it uses rewards and encouragement.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> That's what I'm saying. The behavior of chasing the cat has decreased.



Did it decrease the likelihood of chasing the cat or increase the likelihood of him choosing the other behavior instead?

Let's say it's something like:

Wally sees cat:

He has a 45% chance to chase the cat.
He has a 30% chance to freeze and stare at cat.
He has a 20% chance to freeze and look at me.
He has a 5% chance to be totally disinterested in the cat.

Now with training with alternate behavior that freeze and stare at cat turned into freeze and look at me.

Now it's:

50% chance to freeze and look at me.
45% chance to chase cat.
5% chance to be disinterested.

Did I actually decrease the behavior of chasing a cat (punishing chasing cat) or increase the chance of freezing and looking at me (cuing and rewarding alternate behavior to where it becomes the default choice the next time he sees a cat)

And now that he choose freezing and looking at me by default, I have more chances to mark and reward that - so now it's become:

70% freeze and look at me
25% chase the cat on sight
5% be totally uninterested in the cat.

I have decreased the cat chasing without punishing the act (because to punish the act, he has to perform it - if he's not performing it, I have nothing to punish).

It's the same way I trained him to stay out of the kitchen. Instead of catching him doing the wrong thing (going across the line), I catch him being at the line and reward it. By doing that, I've decreased the likelihood of crossing the line without punishing him for doing it, because he's choosing to stay behind it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Not gonna get "The Wally" involved, Let's say my dog Cat killer has only one chance and that is 100% he's gonna chase cat. 

By using an aversive, I will then change that to only one chance again and that is 100% that there is no more cat chasing.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Not gonna get "The Wally" involved, Let's say my dog Cat killer has only one chance and that is 100% he's gonna chase cat.
> 
> By using an aversive, I will then change that to only one chance again and that is 100% that there is no more cat chasing.


Yes, but I'm just replying to the concept that an alternate behavior is punishment.

I don't think it is, I'm calling for an alternate behavior - which then gets rewarded. So now that dog his a higher chance of choosing that alternate behavior in that situation. I'm not attaching any consequence at all to the action he did before. It's neutral vs positive, and if the positive is high enough, he'll choose the positive over neutral and thus the behavior the lead to the positive becomes more likely.

If I want a stand and the dog lies down and I ask him to stand, he does, and I reward it, how am I punishing lying down? The dog isn't any less likely to lie down in the future - he's more likely to choose standing in that situation.

I guess I'm challenging the idea that it's black or white.

I think there's three (at least) categories - positive consequence, no consequence, aversive consequence.

For example, if Wally jumps on me. I'll ask him to sit. Then let him jump on me. If I'm punishing jumping (i.e. decreasing the chance he'll jump on me at all) how does that reckon with the fact that not only am I giving him the chance to jump (to do the behavior I'm supposedly punishing, which wouldn't make sense if my intent is to end jumping) I'm lavishing him with more of what he wants afterwords (my attention, a game, whatever).


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

You have to throw in the dog's intelligence and cleverness into the whole equation. I can use positive reinforcement with Lola 99% of the time because it makes her happy to make me happy. If I say leave it, she will even if it is a very juicy bone without complaint or continually asking me for it.

Ilya, on the other hand, needs both positive and neg. reinforcement to motivate him into living together peacefully. He will try many different ways to peacefully get the bone even if he has to put on his sheep costume and prance around the house to get a few laughs.

If I just used positive training with Sophie.... I can see her clever mind spinning and thinking she has me on the tip of her paws.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I guess I'm challenging the idea that it's black or white.


Challenge away, just keep one thought, that a dog with an extreme prey drive (to chase, to capture etc) is one step the other side of insanity. 



> I'm lavishing him with more of what he wants afterwords


Above sounds good in theory except that the only thing the dog wants afterwards is more chase.

Just something for you to ponder about. Not saying it can't be done, just saying it's very difficult without use of an aversive or two.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

At times a prong is a matter of safety vs a tool for training.

Buster has proven that he is willing and able to drag me into traffic if something across the street catches his attention. He has also shown, on many occasions, that he can easily slip his Easy Walk harness no matter how I have it adjusted. Since I dont have time to sit in a hospital, Bus got a new necklace. 

Before I ever put it on Buster, I put the prong around my neck and gave it a good tug...harder than what I expect he'll ever experience unless he gets a running start. While it was uncomfortable it definitely was not painful. As for Busters opinion. He ducks his head, backs away & starts throwing out calming signals if I approach with the Easy Walk. If he hears me pick up the prong he comes running, holds his head up with his ears forward waiting for me to put it on. The harness has been used for walks (which often include socializing with other dogs & people) since he was around 9 months old, the prong has only been around for just under 2 weeks and has been treated much the same as his other collars in that I randomly put it on throughout the day...sometimes we walk, sometimes we go out into the yard, sometimes I go about my day, sometimes he gets treats.


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## RedChase (Mar 13, 2011)

I like the plain nylon rope, positioned at the top of the neck, with a short lead. I use this when we are going to go somewhere new, a really busy part of town, or going into an open space or park. For every other walk i like to put on the prong, its his bling


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Challenge away, just keep one thought, that a dog with an extreme prey drive (to chase, to capture etc) is one step the other side of insanity.


Is any amount of punishment really going to solve extreme prey drive? I don't think any amount of force will truly extinquish instinct. And as others have suggested, perhaps the fact that they're in "drivey mode" will cause the adversive to ramp them up even more.

I think in the situation of cat killers, a prong (which can pop open) is not what I'd want to use, I'd want to use a means of secure confinement (muzzle, good secure collar, strong gate, etc.) and plenty of undivided supervision.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Challenge away, just keep one thought, that a dog with an extreme prey drive (to chase, to capture etc) is one step the other side of insanity.


Wouldn't that mean that the dog is over-threshold so *no* operant consequences are going to get through? It sounds like the polar extreme to shut down but with the same overall effect? (the mind is not engaged to making a rational decision - the emotion/intensity of drive is overriding anything else).




wvasko said:


> Above sounds good in theory except that the only thing the dog wants afterwards is more chase.
> 
> Just something for you to ponder about. Not saying it can't be done, just saying it's very difficult without use of an aversive or two.



True, he wants chase - so I gave him chase. Just not the cat/bat/squirrel - but something that gives him an outlet to chase and "kill", like maybe throw his Kong with food in it, a favorite toy he loves to chase and shake and chew, or, heck, myself - he can chase me around and when I get tired, flop on the ground all dramaticly and he pounces on me, then I give him some food in my fist (which he has to paw and pin to make me give up the food and I'm moving it all fast on the ground and he's growing and jumping and pouncing and all intense).

I know it's not completely the same, but he got to chase, "capture", bite, and then eat. Is that not a close to a complete prey cycle, which is what his drive really wanted?

I'm not saying I "replicated" him eating a cat (assuming he wanted to eat it) but, looking at behavior, it seems I at least got him away from wanting to eat the cat, but instead wanting to "eat" me with him tracking my every move. It happened with a game of chase - unless triggering a game is also punishment since it's an alternate behavior to what he wanted?

Obviously, all dogs are different and I'm not saying "never use aversives" (the only "nevers" I believe in with training is "never abuse" and "never underestimate the dog's intellect"). I just don't think it's as...limited as aversive or give him exactly what he wants (strict Premacking). 



JustTess said:


> You have to throw in the dog's intelligence and cleverness into the whole equation.



Positive reinforcement oriented training works only on dumb/non-clever dogs?

Maybe that's it - Wally's an idiot? I think he's pretty clever, but maybe he's just a fool  

Wouldn't a more intelligent/clever dog figure out faster what you want (i.e. what's getting him the goods)? It could have nothing to do with "making me happy", he just wants the bread balls, and is going to figure out a way to get them, which is doing what I want (even if he doesn't know at the time it's what I want like at the start of shaping a behavior).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Keechak said:


> I use a prong on Hawkeye for training obedience and ONLY for training obedience. For training Tracking he wears a Harness, for Herding he has a flat buckle collar on, for Agility he's naked, for Conformation a chain is used. All tools to use to train specific behaviors.


Just curious why you need a prong to train obedience?


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

Firstly, I'd just like to say I think this is a brilliant thread!



Nargle said:


> Why not use it to your advantage and funnel your dog's drive into something acceptable? It always baffles me when people say you have to be extra harsh with strong willed dogs, or that PR never works with their strong willed dog, when maybe if you guided that strong willed dog into an appropriate direction, he'd perform the correct behaviors with just as much enthusiasm.


I would love to see you try that with Batty. It's not about being extra harsh, I have to be VERY firm with Batty. There can be NO middle ground, he's either doing the right thing or the wrong thing. If I don't keep it simple and black and white he would have had to have been PTS by now and he's only just 18 months old. I am not exaggerating in any way there.



Nargle said:


> BTW, it really bugs me when people say prong collars don't hurt the dog. PUH-LEASE. If it didn't hurt the dog it wouldn't work. What would be your dog's incentive not to pull? It's not a mind control device. *Not saying that they're evil or terrible or should be outlawed or anything, but don't sugar-coat it to make yourself feel better about using it. And if you've put one on your own neck, did you see what it feels like to yank it?* Because it's not SUPPOSED to hurt when it's just resting on the skin, otherwise it wouldn't work, either (The dog has to distinguish between correction and no correction).


That's exactly what you are saying though. Re-read what you have written, the language and mannerisms that you have used - everything is geared into the negative.

Yes I have put a prong on my neck - haven't had to use one on my dog but I would in a heartbeat over the dangerous "Halti/Infin8/Head Collars". I've put it on and had someone else yank on it. They yanked so hard I went forward two steps to stay upright. I had a couple of tiny red dots on my neck afterwards. I wasn't cut, I wasn't bruised. Just a couple of red dots that faded and disappeared. Yes it causes discomfort - it does NOT cause pain. A halti causes far more pain and discomfort than a prong. Have you seen a dog go mental trying to get a prong off it's neck? I haven't, but I've seen plenty scratching at their faces, rubbing their heads on the ground etc trying to get rid of a halti!


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## Kodiak (Mar 14, 2011)

i have always been taught that prongs should not be used by dogs who have thin skin...as in pits and dobbies. and chokers should not be used on any dog that is on the smaller side or is a breed that is likely to collapse their wind pipe.

and not painful IMHO...ive tested them on me too. its supposed to simulate memories of momma dog saying no or enough...which is also why some trainers say grab the fur on the neck and growl or say no when they are getting to rough or something. dont know how majority feel about that...but i used a prong on my dane pit mix male who was a complete fool who thought he owned the world and a 160lbs dog that got overly excited at a butterfly was annoying. it helped a bit.

i found that looping the leash around his chest worked better though...stick the clip through the handle and have it to it tightens on their chest (another uncomfortable thing...makes it irritating on their bodies to pull forward) and he learned a lot quicker that way and it was cheaper than a collar.  

and ACTING on the prey drive can be trained out. have you never seen gun dogs who never jump after the bird until asked? or dogs taught to leave it during a walk and they continue? while you cant train it out completely, there are ways you can work around it


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I'm not saying I "replicated" him eating a cat (assuming he wanted to eat it) but, looking at behavior, it seems I at least got him away from wanting to eat the cat, but instead wanting to "eat" me with him tracking my every move. It happened with a game of chase - unless triggering a game is also punishment since it's an alternate behavior to what he wanted?


Well it's not a question of dog eating anything (I'm sure you know that) I always wondered, a dog that takes off after a deer as to what happens were he to catch the deer. I talk more from bird dog experiences. Theoretically I suppose he should attack the deer etc. Of course a prong collar is not gonna stop this type of problem or cat chasing either. I was more into just discussing a strong drive and stopping of such. 

The 1st 2 years of a bird dog's life is spent building a wild, crazy bird finding, pointing and chasing out of sight when bird flushes dog. Then the next 1 to 3 yrs is spent steadying the dog to wing, shot and kill in a field trial competition. 

Now I am old school, I would be interested in opinions on how to curb that drive without aversives.

Here's an example, your dog is 200 yards from you running/searching etc and a wily pheasant pops up wild as the wind and flies away cackling, so dog has sight and noise of bird. The dog must perform with a stop to flush as he is not allowed to chase and must remain there until you get to him and heel him off and then send him on for more hunting.

Now you have heavy prey drive with a dog 200 yards or more (within judge's eyesight) I'm just sayin'.. Heavy prey drive may sometimes need aversives prong or whatever.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Woul
> 
> 
> Positive reinforcement oriented training works only on dumb/non-clever dogs?
> ...


I don't know Wally. You missed my point. Some dogs are easily motivated to do desired behavior while other dogs 'think' about if the reward is worth it. I almost started to think it was huskies that are stubborn however, George is very easily motivated and I don't have to use adversion to get him to do what I want. 

Inadvertantly, we had shaped Sophie using adversion and she is the very strong willed independent dog we have. For everyone's safety and sanity, she has been limited to a small confined area or her crate when she doesn't follow the house rules. She loves this area now and will go there herself when she knows someone is upset with her. She also goes there when she is scared.... which is rare. She also hops into her larger crate in the day and hops into her night crate with no direction. My son and I was a bit shocked to see her do this as part of the routine, but we didn't object.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

A&B said:


> I would love to see you try that with Batty. It's not about being extra harsh, I have to be VERY firm with Batty. There can be NO middle ground, he's either doing the right thing or the wrong thing. If I don't keep it simple and black and white he would have had to have been PTS by now and he's only just 18 months old. I am not exaggerating in any way there.


There's no reason you can't be firm and consistent without using positive punishment, and instead replacing unwanted behaviors by training appropriate ones. There doesn't have to be a "middle ground." You're just being insistent on training an alternative behavior rather than "forcing" a behavior to cease to exist through punishment.

In the case of chasing the cat, you don't ever have to let them get away with chasing the cat. There are plenty of physical means of restraint to keep the cat safe. But instead of punishing the dog until his instinct whithers away, I'm suggesting replacing the unwanted behavior with a more acceptable outlet for his drive, such as vigorously tugging on a toy.



A&B said:


> That's exactly what you are saying though. Re-read what you have written, the language and mannerisms that you have used - everything is geared into the negative.
> 
> Yes I have put a prong on my neck - haven't had to use one on my dog but I would in a heartbeat over the dangerous "Halti/Infin8/Head Collars". I've put it on and had someone else yank on it. They yanked so hard I went forward two steps to stay upright. I had a couple of tiny red dots on my neck afterwards. I wasn't cut, I wasn't bruised. Just a couple of red dots that faded and disappeared. Yes it causes discomfort - it does NOT cause pain. A halti causes far more pain and discomfort than a prong. Have you seen a dog go mental trying to get a prong off it's neck? I haven't, but I've seen plenty scratching at their faces, rubbing their heads on the ground etc trying to get rid of a halti!


Meriam Webster's definition of pain includes the phrase, "characterized by physical discomfort (as pricking, throbbing, or aching), and typically leading to evasive action." Not going to post the whole definition, you can look it up yourself if you're curious. 

By that definition, prongs DO cause pain. I'm not talking about extreme, cruel or abusive pain, btw. I'm talking about a physical discomfort that is intense enough to cause the dog to attempt to avoid it. If it did not cause pain, it would NOT work as a training tool, because the goal is to get the dog to try to avoid experiencing the pain (In this case, avoiding putting tension on the leash). 

And again, to clarify, I'm not suggesting that prongs are cruel or inhumane. I'm simply stating that it irritates me when people delude themselves into believing that prongs do not cause any pain to their dogs. They'll state that "he can barely feel it," or "he loves his prong, he comes running every time I take it out!" No, he loves going for walks and associates the prong with going on walks (And he should, if he were cowering in fear at the sight of the prong I'd say you're doing something wrong). If he enjoyed the sensation of metal prongs pressing into his neck, he would pull harder, and it would be useless as a training tool. People who say these things are just trying to sugarcoat it to make themselves feel better about using a tool that many people don't agree with using. But frankly, if you're going to be using pain-based training methods to train your dog, you should at least acknowledge the fact that you're causing pain to your dog.

BTW, in no way did I promote the use of haltis, head collars or any other training tool. Not sure why you brought it up. I only promoted the use of training instead of or in addition to the use of the prong, rather than using a prong as a management tool and as a "bandaid solution." In fact, I think too many people use head collars as a crutch instead of actually training their dog, too.



wvasko said:


> Now I am old school, I would be interested in opinions on how to curb that drive without aversives.
> 
> Here's an example, your dog is 200 yards from you running/searching etc and a wily pheasant pops up wild as the wind and flies away cackling, so dog has sight and noise of bird. The dog must perform with a stop to flush as he is not allowed to chase and must remain there until you get to him and heel him off and then send him on for more hunting.
> 
> Now you have heavy prey drive with a dog 200 yards or more (within judge's eyesight) I'm just sayin'.. Heavy prey drive may sometimes need aversives prong or whatever.


Basil has a high prey drive in regards to squirrels, and I trained him not to go after squirrels using the Premack Principle. It doesn't use P+ but I would say it uses P- and R+. In order to keep both Basil and the squirrels safe, he was always in a secure harness on a 6 ft leash. The alternate behavior I trained was a Sit and Watch me. What we would to was, when we'd see a squirrel, he'd spazz out like usual, and I'd just hold onto the leash and wait. As soon as his butt hit the ground, we'd either run towards the squirrel (If the squirrel was near a tree so it could get away) or if we couldn't run towards the squirrel (Say there were no trees around or the squirrel was across the street) we'd run like crazy in a different direction. In a case where you don't want to actually chase after the animal, you can run in a different direction. This was usually accompanied crazilly yelling "LET'S GO GET THAT SQUIIRRREEELL!!!" to increase the excitement of the "chase" even though we weren't going after a real squirrel. The bat-outta-hell type running like crazy in a different direction was extremely rewarding to Basil, as it was an outlet for his prey drive. If you're dog's outlet for his prey drive is more "attack" than "chase," you can bring a tug toy on walks and have a vigorous tug session as a reward. And because the reward was so high, he would willingly comply with whatever I asked of him just to be able to run like crazy after an imaginary squirrel. After he was reliably sitting every time he saw a squirrel, I asked for eye contact, and I built up the length of time in which I asked him to sit and wait and watch me. After the behavior was solid, I gradually faded out the number of times he was rewarded, until eventually we would only occasionally get to run, and the rest of the time, I'd say "Let's go!" and we'd move on past the squirrel. The slim chance that he might get to go run around like a fool keeps him eagerly obeying, though. I would wait until the behavior you're asking for is very reliable before trusting him off-leash, though, for obvious reasons. You could probably increase your dog's chance of success by gradually using longer and longer training leads to make sure he's trustworthy and won't bolt. 

In case anyone is wondering and doesn't quite understand the R+ or P- terminology, the R+ is getting to chase, the P- is being denied the ability to run away using a secure leash and collar, and P+ would be using a prong in this situation.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I don't think it would help much with the example I put up, but your example with a loose cat/squirrel and the dog being on lead etc it may very well work.

The proofing of this obviously would be if your dog was 200 yards or so ahead of you off lead and on lawn so you could see him clearly and a squirrel were to bolt across, do you think he would handle the problem properly then. A lead would not work because the dog in all probability would not be able to drag 600 ft of lead. I know a little facetious but handling a dog at an extreme distances off lead is much tougher. 

A lot of owners can't handle their dogs 50 ft away from them off lead. As I stated earlier heavy prey drive *may* require aversives. Is it written in stone, no. I'm just curious, as that's how we learn things.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Well it's not a question of dog eating anything (I'm sure you know that) I always wondered, a dog that takes off after a deer as to what happens were he to catch the deer. I talk more from bird dog experiences. Theoretically I suppose he should attack the deer etc. Of course a prong collar is not gonna stop this type of problem or cat chasing either. I was more into just discussing a strong drive and stopping of such.
> 
> The 1st 2 years of a bird dog's life is spent building a wild, crazy bird finding, pointing and chasing out of sight when bird flushes dog. Then the next 1 to 3 yrs is spent steadying the dog to wing, shot and kill in a field trial competition.
> 
> ...


What aversive would you use for that?


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## A&B (Mar 26, 2011)

Nargle said:


> There's no reason you can't be firm and consistent without using positive punishment, and instead replacing unwanted behaviors by training appropriate ones. There doesn't have to be a "middle ground." You're just being insistent on training an alternative behavior rather than "forcing" a behavior to cease to exist through punishment.
> 
> In the case of chasing the cat, you don't ever have to let them get away with chasing the cat. There are plenty of physical means of restraint to keep the cat safe. But instead of punishing the dog until his instinct whithers away, I'm suggesting replacing the unwanted behavior with a more acceptable outlet for his drive, such as vigorously tugging on a toy.


I'll just reply to this for the moment, because it's too early on a Sunday morning for me lol.

I do both actually. Look at it this way - chasing a cat has never happened. He's grown up with them and never chases or harrasses UNLESS it's indoors and the cat has started the game.

I train in drive. I don't extinguish drive, I do however apply an aversive if the drive is focused on something it shouldn't be, then I show him where the drive should be focused. I trained using the methods that you have described for the first 8 months that I had him. He was a nightmare to live with. He jumped, he nipped, he chased people, he would only listen to commands after he was done doing what he was doing. Didn't matter that the behaviours he was exhibiting weren't rewarded or even acknowledged in any way and I redirected him to do something that would get a reward. I decided stuff this, I've had enough. He started getting corrections followed by the redirection and what do you know, the bad behaviours faded into nothing

I don't have to justify my training methods. I do nothing that is cruel, nothing that causes pain. All of my training is done on a flat collar or a fabric martingale. Your way works for your Papillon. My way works for my working dog. I believe that the use of aversives is a good thing if the personality of the dog calls for it. Not I have to always be kind and never punish anything because I *might* squash drive. Haven't had that happen yet. My dog is VERY drivey, because of the effort I have put into him he is also very obedient, and he won't go after anything he knows he's not supposed to anymore, he'd rather the drive games I play with him. I can get him to drop over 350m away from me when he's in full flight after a rabbit. He will turn on a dime and return to me at a tiny whistle and he will literally do anything for me.

If this is a dog that's been mistreated: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9dm1dRL5uM I'll eat my hat. He's free to be a dog, to play, to have fun, he is also expected to obey the rules at all times and listen when I give him a command. I have a happy, well balanced, confident dog who is not afraid of anything and is happy all of the time, including when he gets an aversive! I have the perfect relationship with my dog, and I'm not changing what I do because of something that someone has suggested I do on a forum, especially when it's something I've already done.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

katielou said:


> What aversive would you use for that?


Aversive depends on the individual dog being trained and I don't advise aversive use online. Remember I said this was old school and at least in my case ancient history so it really not needed here.

I was more interested in how modern non-aversive training would work with my bird dog/prey example.



> But frankly, if you're going to be using pain-based training methods to train your dog, you should at least acknowledge the fact that you're causing pain to your dog.


Why, that's not necessary as A&B did not tell anybody else to follow her training methods. If she did then I missed it and I will give the usual "my bad" that's so popular now.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

A&B said:


> I'll just reply to this for the moment, because it's too early on a Sunday morning for me lol.
> 
> I do both actually. Look at it this way - chasing a cat has never happened. He's grown up with them and never chases or harrasses UNLESS it's indoors and the cat has started the game.
> 
> ...


Try not to misinterpret what I'm saying. You're taking bits and pieces of what I say and blowing them out of proportion. I'm not saying "Never use aversive corrections, ever." I'm saying don't use aversive corrections without also training an alternative behavior. Otherwise it's kind of like telling your dog "Be good" without specifying what "good" means. The part I bolded shows that we are in agreement. The training the alternative behavior is the most important thing, IMO. So important that you often don't even need the corrections. But if you still use corrections, I'm not putting you down, in fact I've myself used corrections on multiple occasions. Just saying it's not ALWAYS necessary.

BTW, the fact that I own a Papillon has nothing to do with anything.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Well it's not a question of dog eating anything (I'm sure you know that) I always wondered, a dog that takes off after a deer as to what happens were he to catch the deer. I talk more from bird dog experiences. Theoretically I suppose he should attack the deer etc. Of course a prong collar is not gonna stop this type of problem or cat chasing either. I was more into just discussing a strong drive and stopping of such.
> 
> The 1st 2 years of a bird dog's life is spent building a wild, crazy bird finding, pointing and chasing out of sight when bird flushes dog. Then the next 1 to 3 yrs is spent steadying the dog to wing, shot and kill in a field trial competition.
> 
> ...


Not a huntin dog trainer, so this is not from an expert in that field, just a personal guess, based on experience in other areas. Perhaps it would be a good idea to start working on/off, Premacking self control, highly rewarding holding the point with increasing difficult criteria, etc. while the dog is still more malleable, than to build a bunch of drive and then punish the dog for using it. If you are using positive games and Premack for training, you're not going to hurt the dog's attitude or confidence by working early on self control.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Not a huntin dog trainer, so this is not from an expert in that field, just a personal guess, based on experience in other areas. Perhaps it would be a good idea to start working on/off, Premacking self control, highly rewarding holding the point with increasing difficult criteria, etc. while the dog is still more malleable, than to build a bunch of drive and then punish the dog for using it. If you are using positive games and Premack for training, you're not going to hurt the dog's attitude or confidence by working early on self control.


Well couple things, these are horseback handled dogs and drive needed was to get them out cruising to the nearest treeline/hedgerow. I actually whoa broke my pups quite young which meant I would walk up to cast off line and whoa pup unsnap lead and then mount horse and wait for judge's command to cast off. (this was unheard of in those days) Normal pups were brought up to line with the pups jumping/walking on hind feet while handlers had hold of collar then cast off and handlers would mount their horses etc. I always thought being able to be on horse for cast-off made more sense. 

I started whoa work when pups were 12 weeks or so old when they were malleable, but still had to balance that with drive needed to build an extremely wide running dog. Back in the 60s/70s not much talk about Premack or positive games. (Keep thought in mind Dinosaur) But and a big but, anything that makes training of dogs easier on dog and trainer is definitely acceptable. I worked with the knowledge and tools out there at that time with some self adjusting that seemed sensible to me.

At that time I thought this work done with younger dogs made the steadying of these dogs when older easier. The average FC was finished between 4 and 6 yrs of age, all dogs I started as pups finished under 4 yrs.

I don't have a clue as to what methods are used now, not sure if they are even running GSP horseback trials any more as they now have the walking Master Hunter stuff of which I know nothing.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Nargle said:


> Is any amount of punishment really going to solve extreme prey drive? I don't think any amount of force will truly extinquish instinct. And as others have suggested, perhaps the fact that they're in "drivey mode" will cause the adversive to ramp them up even more.


It will, and it probably requires less punishment than you imagine it will. I don't, however, think it is entirely fair to try to completely extinguish prey drive in a dog, any more than it would be fair to extinguish musical aptitude in a young Mozart.

It's better to teach the time/place/manner restrictions that will allow the dog to be a good neighbor and citizen, but that still give him an outlet for what makes him _him_. Ya just teach the dog that he hunts for you, and not for himself. The dogs seem to be okay with that bargain.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Well couple things, these are horseback handled dogs and drive needed was to get them out cruising to the nearest treeline/hedgerow. I actually whoa broke my pups quite young which meant I would walk up to cast off line and whoa pup unsnap lead and then mount horse and wait for judge's command to cast off. (this was unheard of in those days) Normal pups were brought up to line with the pups jumping/walking on hind feet while handlers had hold of collar then cast off and handlers would mount their horses etc. I always thought being able to be on horse for cast-off made more sense.
> 
> I started whoa work when pups were 12 weeks or so old when they were malleable, but still had to balance that with drive needed to build an extremely wide running dog. Back in the 60s/70s not much talk about Premack or positive games. (Keep thought in mind Dinosaur) But and a big but, anything that makes training of dogs easier on dog and trainer is definitely acceptable. I worked with the knowledge and tools out there at that time with some self adjusting that seemed sensible to me.
> 
> ...


I remember what training was like in the 70s (in the 60s still too busy doing teenage girl stuff). It sounds like you were a bit of an innovator in your field. A shame more people didn't take your lead. I recognize that field trialing is highly competitive, and admit that I have no experience in it. I do have some experience in other competitive dog sports, and personal experience is that it is easier to balance drive and compliance if you haven't spent a couple of years building a crazy dog who doesn't know how to listen. JME. So is that Lake Murray Oklahoma in your picture?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JustTess said:


> I don't know Wally. You missed my point. Some dogs are easily motivated to do desired behavior while other dogs 'think' about if the reward is worth it.


You said it depended on the intelligence/cleverness of the dog.

Being more biddable or more easy to motivate doesn't make the dog less intelligent. After all, he still has to observe and learn and draw a connection to what you're trying to teach. The rest is just finding what motivates him - not that he's smarter/dumber, imo. If avoiding a punishment is more motivating than getting a reward - then absolutely, use that, and of course use management (like you mentioned with your strong-willed dog), but none of that, imo, is connected to the dog's intellectual ability. 

A biddable dog can "think" which behavior is more rewarding and pick the "wrong" one (believe me *cuts eyes at Wally*), especially during shaping (which is mostly "trial and error" when just starting to form a behavior - you can improve your odds of setting him up to succeed, but the dog still has his own mind) just like a less-biddable dog can think "is that really worth my time?" 

To me, it's not a question of the dog's ability to learn, discern, and make rational decisions (what I consider a dog's intelligence) but a question of how the dog uses those abilities, either on the behavioral-side (which behaviors usually give me more rewards - that's the one I want to do most) or the reward-side (is the payoff from this really worth my effort?)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> I remember what training was like in the 70s (in the 60s still too busy doing teenage girl stuff). It sounds like you were a bit of an innovator in your field. A shame more people didn't take your lead. I recognize that field trialing is highly competitive, and admit that I have no experience in it. I do have some experience in other competitive dog sports, and personal experience is that it is easier to balance drive and compliance if you haven't spent a couple of years building a crazy dog who doesn't know how to listen. JME. So is that Lake Murray Oklahoma in your picture?


Indeed, it was good time to retire with a National Championship in my resume. Lake Murray Park, Ardmore Oklahoma.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Sorry to those of you who consider this thread to be all done, but I just found it and read it with much interest (although fairly quickly, I may have missed something). I decided to revive this thread since everybody in it seems to be generally open to the concept of prong collars (and I suppose e-collars) to some degree, as a training tool. I looked it up because we are exploring the prong as a possibility for training our pup. She is getting big, and very strong and my neck and shoulders aren't doing so well (the mad dash is going to start hurting me pretty soon). Also, she is VERY interested in vehicles, so we want to stop this mad dash no matter what for her safety as well! Other Swissy owners have told us that they have used prongs with much success (compared to other methods I'd assume). We are considering it for training for two things....one being improving her walking (stop the mad dash too) and the other would be some training with the cats......we really need to deter her from chasing them (and if she doesn't, or if she does and gets a pinch we would give her something else to chase). We intend on it being a training tool only, and hope we don't have to use it for long (if we do finally decide on it). 

My main concern over prongs is this: we have heard cases of e-collars causing some aggression later on as in the example where a dog kept getting shocked by the e-collar fence, and when a person it often saw (which caused it to run for the "fence" line) finally came within bounds, the dog had decided that the person had been the source of the shock and attacked her. Now, this kind of thing worries us. Could this be caused by a prong/pinch collar? Of course you see the reason for that concern since we need to redirect her prey drive when it comes to the cats (or anything else she might dash for when she is on leash for that matter). 

Also, she is one of those dogs that if you pull back on her (leash or metaphorically) she pulls harder. She also gets riled up if any physical means are used on her, restraint etc (come on, sometimes you HAVE to get something out of dog's mouth, or keep them from hard puppy play biting) causes her to get more riled up. Is a prong a bad choice for a dog like this? We're worried it'll really get her going! We really won't know for sure until we try I guess, but input from those experienced would be great. 

I'm interested in this on two levels, first for helping to train our dog, and also on a general level. I've been starting to read a bit on behavior and training schools of thought and find it quite fascinating. I personally lean more towards positive reinforcement, but absolutely recognize that it doesn't necessarily work perfectly on all dogs for all purposes. I would love to hear from some of you about these issues, since I haven't found much about them.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Prongs often ramp dogs up more. It's fairly common, but by no means universal. But many dogs find the pinch stimulating and it gets them wound up tighter. I would not call it "causing aggression," although the arousal can manifest in ways that look like aggression. My main concern would be using it to deter chasing the cat. Since cat chasing is rooted in prey drive, on a fairly touch insensitive dog as I assume Swissys are, my prediction is that it would make the chasing behavior worse, not better. 

For walking, prong collars are often called "power steering" and in that instance I expect it would work well when used within a training system. That is to say, you can't just pull back on the collar and expect it to work, she'll just learn to pull through the prong like she was on a regular collar. I am not an expert on prongs, but with a choke chain the important part is the *release* of pressure, not the application. So, with the prong, pop and release, don't keep a steady pressure all the time because then she won't have the contrast of comfort-discomfort to learn from. Definitely seek the advice from a trainer who has actually used one, I am merely speculating.


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## crazy5 (Dec 17, 2010)

I walk two Mastiffs on flat collars the same time with my left hand while my Cocker Spaniel wears her prong! She never pulls and when she does she now corrects herself.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Prongs and e-collars don't cause aggression, but there are situations to watch out for. Mostly it is a matter of proper use (timing) and reading your dog. "Protest biting" is a pretty common thing. Not all dogs will accept correction with perfect meekness. Depending on a dog's temperament, it can be anything from a warning snap, to mouthing, to a true bite. It's not especially difficult to deal with, but if that sort of thing would send you into a tailspin, then you may want to look for other solutions.

The situation with a dog charging an invisible fence, getting shocked, and associating the shock with the object of his aggression can't very well be blamed on the device. An owner who lets his dog charge the barrier is setting up the aggression. A dog who is permitted to habitually charge any barrier will eventually whip himself up to an aggressive state where a bite is almost inevitable.

Remote e-collars can turn a tense session of mutual posturing into an all-brawl situation. 

Corrective training tools can produce excellent results. They are powerful tools, though, and if used carelessly can produce spectacularly undesirable results. Sound training methods and mental discipline must be used in concert with a well formulated training plan. That's pretty much true with any training method, but doubly so with corrective methods. You must respect the law of unintended consequences.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Greater Swiss said:


> Also, she is one of those dogs that *if you pull back on her (leash or metaphorically) she pulls harder*. She also gets riled up if any physical means are used on her, restraint etc (come on, sometimes you HAVE to get something out of dog's mouth, or keep them from hard puppy play biting) causes her to get more riled up. Is a prong a bad choice for a dog like this? We're worried it'll really get her going! We really won't know for sure until we try I guess, but input from those experienced would be great.


Have you tried silky leash? It teaches the dog to move towards the pressure rather than against it. Here's a video that shows how to teach it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZarFGdcj8s


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I have started on silky leash actually....just yesterday, so its way too early to see if it works. We also recently got a front leading harness which we are also going to work with. We are going to try these methods to see how she does with them before we move to a prong/pinch collar. It is possible we will still try a prong if these work if we move to walking near very busy roads since by that time she'll probably be quite big and strong, and we can't afford to have to wrestle with her and have her get away....at least if she protests she'll probably be aimed at us, not at running for a car! We have been working on impulse control as well, and she is improving in a big way. The neighbor's dog came over and was 5 feet away, she pulled for a second then stopped, sat and looked at me.....fantastic (I released her to play for a bit as a reward ). This should help with the "mad dash", but I'm starting to see training her to the prong as an added insurance and safety issue, for those major unforeseen circumstances that may come up even if she is otherwise perfectly socialized and leash trained. 

I wouldn't be surprised if she got ramped up...."protest biting" is the best way to put it! She does that a fair bit as it is. We'll have to see, and be prepared for the possibility. We will be using it cautiously, hopefully soon we'll be able to afford a trainer (yay for life events sucking the rainy day fund...uck!)

Marsh Muppet fantastic and informative post, and BEST quote EVER: *"You must respect the law of unintended consequences"*. Really says it all!!! We are going to keep informing ourselves on how to properly use it, consult a trainer if possible (even if it is just one session on how to use the prong...if we can find a trainer), and try to keep those bad consequences to a minimum.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

By the "law of unintended consequences", I mean that you have to be aware of the dog's perception. A common mistake is correcting a dog at the worst point in a sloppy recall. The human may think it obvious that he/she is correcting the dog for disregarding the recall command but, by punishing the dog when he finally does come back, the human is teaching the dog that returning is the crime. In many cases, what is obvious to the human may be the exact opposite of what's obvious to the dog. In the vast majority of situations, the dog's perception is the one that counts. The dog has to be absolutely clear on what is happening--you can't assume he knows what you're thinking.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Agreed, but barrier frustration can occur in e fences as well, dog can't get to what he wants, weather its a car, squirrel, person or another dog. It wouldn't IMHO be any different if their was a traditional fence in place. The barrier would still be a bad association, but those who are using e fences should still set up a clearly seen barrier that is a visual aid for the dog.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> "In the vast majority of situations, the dog's perception is the one that counts."


I disagree with Greater Swiss. This is the best quote.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

KBLover said:


> I disagree with Greater Swiss. This is the best quote.


I'd call it a close second, simply because "the Law of Unintended Consequences" can apply to SO much!

Of course it is true, and the dog's perception is a big issue. Like the example of giving a correction for a sloppy recall AFTER the dog gets back. This one of the cases where one could argue that an e-collar was a better tool, the ability to correct WHEN the dog is ignoring the command, not after they've dawdled. 

I admit we have considered an e-collar, because to us even more important than walking nicely is recall. It is something though that we are very reluctant to follow through on since it seems that some of our training so far must have been sloppy (since things just aren't sticking), and an e-collar is absolutely not something to be sloppy with. 

The prong though seems like the best tool for us to consider at this point to keep her and us safe while walking her on the leash....off leash control comes later and perhaps she'll have come far enough in her training by that point that her recalls aren't sloppy at all!!!


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