# Adding "stuff" to kibble



## muffinsdad (Jul 2, 2008)

Hi all. I have read that people add “extra’s” to kibble for extra flavor, health reasons and to break up the monotony of a single food source.
I put a bit of chicken broth in with Muffins Canidae and she gobbled it up like she hadn’t been fed in a month
So I would welcome any suggestions of basic things that have a low chance of upsetting her stomach( I’ve only had her 2 weeks but there is no indication she is particularly sensitive) and are easy to prepare. 
Also I intend this as an additive only so serving amount would be helpful.
The only other concern would be using something up before it would go bad, so if you suggest a natural product or something that is not labeled, how long would it last in the fridge or if it could be frozen?

Thanks.

Peace 

Keith
p.s. she is about 32 lbs if that helps for serving size.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Plain, lowfat "live" yogurt is quite healthy and good for sensitive stomachs. My dogs are small (around 30 lbs I think; I use metric), so I usually give about half a teaspoonful every other day. Like you said, the hard part is finishing it before it expires (usually in about a month) -- so I usually share with them.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I also give Yogurt. Plain, nonfat, live active cultures. My dogs love it and can go through it pretty quickly. Helps with gas.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Yogurt is always good. 

I've used carrots before too and they've loved them. 

Is that your new baby in your avatar? She's a doll!


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

My dogs love cottage cheese...I give each of them a "glob" (I know, technical measuring here) when we have it in the house, usually gets chowed down within 2-3 days of hitting the fridge between me and my kids and the dogs  they also like garlic powder (not cloves that are chopped though, I tried that) and olive oil.


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## muffinsdad (Jul 2, 2008)

Looks like yogurt is the big hit so far. Cottage cheese would be great too as my wife likes it but it never seems to get finished before going bad. They can share
What about pumpkin? Seems to get lots of mentions on this forum. Is it only for digestion problems or it yummy too?

Yes the avatar is Muffin. She says thanks for the compliment.

Peace

Keith


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

I totally forgot about cottage cheese! It's a huge hit here. 

Pumpkin is good too. Most of the time when it's mentioned, it helps to harden the stool. When they have an upset stomach or diarrhea a little pumpkin helps. 

What do you think little Muffin is? Breed(s) I mean.. She looks like of Schnauzer? Whatever she is she is gorgeous. Welcome to the forum btw. Can't wait to see pictures of this girl!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I was always very strict about the kibble when that is what I fed the dogs. No topping ever. The dogs always got human food, bits of vegetables, meat, potato, rice, ice cream etc as training treats. The tuna water was a treat as well. I would bite the cartilage off the ends of chicken bones too! That is good stuff if you are a dog.

One thing dogs fed kibble need is Omega 6 fatty acids found in fish. Kibble has plenty of the Omega 3 and if the balance of Omegas is off dogs can get itchy. A topping of canned sardines once a week would give your dog the Omega 6. Note this is from reading only. I have the cans of sardines and haven't given it to my dogs yet! My dogs love pumpkin and yogurt too. Since the can of pumpkin is large I spread the pumpkin on a cookie sheet to freeze for little pupscicles. Then I am not worried it is going to go bad. Whatever you add watch the calories!


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

I think I'm going to try some pumpkin. I cook eggs (in extra oil) which my dogs love! There was a time I couldn't fix eggs for myself because they thought it was for them.  I like the idea of freezing it. I've never given the mutts frozen stuff so it should prove interesting.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Kathyy said:


> One thing dogs fed kibble need is Omega 6 fatty acids found in fish. Kibble has plenty of the Omega 3 and if the balance of Omegas is off dogs can get itchy.


Really? I've read it's the other way around -- kibble provides lots of O-6 but not enough O-3.


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## muffinsdad (Jul 2, 2008)

> What do you think little Muffin is? Breed(s) I mean.. She looks like of Schnauzer? Whatever she is she is gorgeous. Welcome to the forum btw. Can't wait to see pictures of this girl!


To be honest TeddieX we are not sure. The rescue group thought poodle/sheepdog mix and the vet thinks more a terrier mix. 
She arrived from the shelter horribly matted so the foster home had to shave her body. I am waiting for it to grow in a little before posting more pics so it will help with the identification.
She's starting to get some liver colored spots as the coat grows in, so maybe spaniel/terrier mix??
I am no expert but her demeanor seems to match what I have been reading regarding a Wheaton terrier's personality.
Time will tell I guess.

peace

Keith


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

So do you guys spread the yogurt on the kibble or just put a glob in the food dish? And when giving them extras (like cottage cheese), is it a substitute for a feeding, or just a little treat?

We're staying away from pumpkin - his poops are firm enough as it is, don't want hemorrhoids! 

Sorry for hijacking the thread, muffin's dad. She sure is a cutie!!


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

I just put a glob in the food dish. Same with cottage cheese, I never give more than half a teaspoonful. Have to watch their weight.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

muffinsdad said:


> To be honest TeddieX we are not sure. The rescue group thought poodle/sheepdog mix and the vet thinks more a terrier mix.
> She arrived from the shelter horribly matted so the foster home had to shave her body. I am waiting for it to grow in a little before posting more pics so it will help with the identification.
> She's starting to get some liver colored spots as the coat grows in, so maybe spaniel/terrier mix??
> I am no expert but her demeanor seems to match what I have been reading regarding a Wheaton terrier's personality.
> ...


her face just reminded me so much of my late Schnauzer. (Schnauzers are terriers) I can see a lot of Terrier in her though. Once her hair grows back and she has a "shape" it will probably be easier. 

MyCharlie- When I put the yogurt on their food I just blurb it on the food. With the big dogs I just put a _bigger _spoon full. It doesn't have to be mixed in or anything.

However I will say this. If you have a dog with a beard..make sure to wash their face.  I fed Ted one night and forgetting he has the long facial hair I had yogurt all over me! A damp wash cloth should do the job.


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

In the winter when the air is very dry I put a little cod liver oil on it. They love the taste and it's good for skin and coat too.


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

Here are some of the things I add to Libby's food:

Plain, nonfat youghurt
cottage cheese
raw egg
hard-boiled egg
tuna
raw ground beef
rawchicken neck
fruit or veggie scraps

I don't do it regularly, just randomly. I usually give a slightly smaller portion of kibble when I add something.


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## Pasofino (Apr 10, 2008)

My dogs all get kibble ( Timberwolf or BB) at one meal and the other consists of fresh veggies or fruits...

Yogurt frozen along with other things are a treat they get sometimes...

All organic and no additives.....at least the fruit and veggies..


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I usually stir in their goodies to coat the kibble that way they don't just eat the treat off the top and walk away from the kibble (yeah mine do that sometimes, it's annoying)
I also give them a fish oil gelcap every night as a "treat" - well they eat it like a training treat anyway so it must not taste bad to them **blech**.
All the fat and such I cut off the meats for dinner goes in their bowls along with some of the excess meat (hubby has high cholesterol and blood pressure so I have to whack all the fat off meat) and they pretty much get anything we don't eat after dinner in regards to meat and veggies. 
Lily eats all the veggies (off the floor where the kids throw food too) and just about anything, while Smokey is more picky and won't touch veggies.


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> Really? I've read it's the other way around -- kibble provides lots of O-6 but not enough O-3.


That's correct, depending on the kibble. Grain-based kibble will be higher in Omega-6, unless a good source of omega-3 in sufficient quantity is added. I wouldn't want to get my EFAs from such a heavily processed product however, because they are very delicate and prone to oxidization. In order to prevent the oxidization the manufacturer has to add preservatives. Oxidized oils are toxic.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

My dogs are fed EVO kibble, and I add a variety of fresh foods/meats to their diet. They eat two meals per day, with one plain EVO, the other with added poached chicken breast, shredded, or ground meat, and steamed fresh vegetables. Once a week, I'll poach the meat in water w/garlic and celery stalk, then add the steamed vegetables, and sometimes brown rice. I mix, then store in individual freezer bags, taking it out to thaw in the fridge overnight. For fish meals, I get albacore or wild alaskan salmon sold in pouches (I hate the smell of fish cooking). Once in awhile, I feed them pasta with meat balls in red sauce, and make a beef pot roast with baby carrots and little red potatoes. "Brunch" on the weekend is a spinach and cheese omelette. They also love cauliflower, especially mashed and whipped. Baked sweet potatoes are a favorite, often made with a little cinnamon and nutmeg, a sparse sprinkle of dark brown sugar, and a tad of butter. 

I give them omega 3 via wild alaskan salmon oil in gel caps. 

For snacks/treats, they get:

Plain, live culture yogurt
Cottage cheese
Hard boiled eggs
Sardines in olive oil
Green beans
Apples & Pears, peeled and cubed
Blueberries
Watermelon
Cantelope w/cottage cheese
String cheese
Braunsweiger (usually a training treat)

They love asperagus, and will even eat brussel sprouts! LOL Fresh ground parmesean on plain kibble adds to the appeal of this dry meal, and there's no harm in indulging them in this way. 

Annual blood panels done assure me they are healthy and doing well. Maddy is 7 yrs. old, and Beau will be 7 the end of August. My cats are healthy, too, and Babe just turned 26 yrs. old in May! (She won't eat cat food, so I've cooked for her.)


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## kaazebrabeads (May 14, 2008)

Poodleholic and everyone, I am glad you guys answered in this thread. I was wondering what I could add to Sam's balanced but rather basic diet. 

He is thin (Shelter dog and HIGHLY Energetic) but has nothing wrong with him according to the vet (No worms, nothing in the skin or blood etc) he's just so high energy he burns stuff off.... Quickly....

He is on Happy Dog (A pet food company based out of Munich Germany) which is a good premium dog and cat food (First ingredient MEAT not by products MEAT, no added sugars, soy fillers or preservatives) both wet and dry... (Our cats are on it too...)

He (Vet recommended portions for him) eats 300 grams a day wet food (Like he was starving) and free feed dry food (Two bowls 1 cup each, one in the kitchen and one in the living room, the cats don't touch it and hes stopped eating theirs!).

However, he is not a fan of the dry food and mixing it with his wet food does not exactly work making him eat the kibble.... He eats everything but the now soggy kibble and leaves that, sometimes eating it over the course of the day (I re-measure his dry food daily) and sometimes not....

But he needs more calories, since he plays hard and my partner and I hike with him (5 to 13 kilometers a hike) and I was wondering what extras were good and would tempt him to eat...

Cooking for him and the cats is not a problem.... I am a chef, so cooking for us and the critties would be no problem.....

The vet (Who has Science Diet in his office, but actually did NOT recommend it to me or the Royal Canin foods) says the Happy Dog is well balanced (The company does not sell it through the Vets here) and said he could weigh up to 12 kilos and be not fat (He is 8 and a half at the moment, he's lost 500 grams from just being Sam!) That would be around 24 pounds..... 

So thanks for the info...

I love the site! It really helps....

Now to work on the car anxiety....


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

You could add fat - drizzle on some bacon grease or meat drippings if it's not burned. If it's just fat and no moisture it won't make the kibble soggy. Watch the salt content though. Also raise the amount of fat in food gradually to give the dog time to adapt. Eggs are also a great source of additional protein and fat.


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## muffinsdad (Jul 2, 2008)

Thanks to everyone who replied. You good people are the best
You have given me enough suggestions to keep Muffins food tasty and interesting for a long time.

peace

keith


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

What I don't understand and maybe someone could explain it to me. People go to a lot of trouble finding a dog food that has ingredients that they like and is labeled as "Complete and Balanced". Then they add a bunch of stuff to it to unbalance it. Why?


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> What I don't understand and maybe someone could explain it to me. People go to a lot of trouble finding a dog food that has ingredients that they like and is labeled as "Complete and Balanced". Then they add a bunch of stuff to it to unbalance it. Why?


I hardly think that adding fresh, wholesome meats and foods creates an unbalanced or harmful diet! My dogs eat their EVO plain, but enjoy their meals so much more when enhanced with texture and taste, and relish their raw meaty bones. I wouldn't want to eat the same meal day after day after year after year, regardless of how "balanced" it was! With that said, I also have annual blood panels done, and all of my dogs and cats have lived long and healthy lives. That's why.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> I hardly think that adding fresh, wholesome meats and foods creates an unbalanced or harmful diet!


In the first place, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about harmful. If you just added fresh, wholesome meats and bones I aggree would be helpful but adding so much inappropriate food to the diet its like you are trying to feed a human child. All those steamed veggies, fruits, yogurt, etc, etc, etc.

I just wondered what the thought process was behind adding all that stuff to a carnivore diet.


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## jenns (Feb 16, 2007)

poodleholic said:


> My dogs are fed EVO kibble, and I add a variety of fresh foods/meats to their diet. They eat two meals per day, with one plain EVO, the other with added poached chicken breast, shredded, or ground meat, and steamed fresh vegetables. Once a week, I'll poach the meat in water w/garlic and celery stalk, then add the steamed vegetables, and sometimes brown rice. I mix, then store in individual freezer bags, taking it out to thaw in the fridge overnight. For fish meals, I get albacore or wild alaskan salmon sold in pouches (I hate the smell of fish cooking). Once in awhile, I feed them pasta with meat balls in red sauce, and make a beef pot roast with baby carrots and little red potatoes. "Brunch" on the weekend is a spinach and cheese omelette. They also love cauliflower, especially mashed and whipped. Baked sweet potatoes are a favorite, often made with a little cinnamon and nutmeg, a sparse sprinkle of dark brown sugar, and a tad of butter.
> 
> I give them omega 3 via wild alaskan salmon oil in gel caps.
> 
> ...



If you are going through all this trouble to "supplement" your dog's kibble, and you say the kibble is unappetizing to your dogs, why bother with kibble at all? You might as well homecook - you are doing all the work anyway without achieving the full benefit (in fact, most homecooked diets for dogs are less work than what you are doing). Also, kibble has so much unneccesary carbohydrate as it is - why add more with the steamed veggies and pasta and fruit? JMO


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> jenns;333928]If you are going through all this trouble to "supplement" your dog's kibble, and you say the kibble is unappetizing to your dogs, why bother with kibble at all?


I never said that EVO is unappetizing to my dogs; they like it, and eat it plain for one meal each day. EVO is an excellent food, providing them with what they need. I rotate between the two formulas EVO offers: red meat and poultry. I certainly don't experience feeding my dogs as "going through all this trouble," as you call it. I'm single, so when I make a pot roast, there's plenty to share with the dogs and cats. 



> You might as well homecook - you are doing all the work anyway without achieving the full benefit (in fact, most homecooked diets for dogs are less work than what you are doing).


I do cook for Babe, my cat who turned 26 yrs. old in May of this year. Adding more ground meat or chicken breasts to also feed my dogs isn't extra work! I steam vegetables for myself, which only takes minutes. Again, it's no biggie to add more for the dogs. 



> Also, kibble has so much unneccesary carbohydrate as it is - why add more with the steamed veggies and pasta and fruit? JMO :


That may be your opininion, but that doesn't make what you're saying accurate or true with regard to what I feed my dogs. EVO is a grain free, low carbohydrate food, and is used by many raw feeders for convenience at times they'e unable to feed raw, for whatever reason. 

When they're given pasta w/meatballs and sauce (or pot roast with baby carrots/red potatoes), I don't add the EVO because it's simply not necessary. I use fresh fruit as treats, in addition to some veggies (i.e., they're crazy about grape tomatoes), and other wholesome foods, all low in calories, and not laden with chemicals, like many so-called treats sold in pet stores or the grocery store. 

Bottom line, my dogs are lean, muscular dogs who are healthy and fit. I enjoy feeding them almost as much as they enjoy eating what I give them!



> In the first place, don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about harmful.


You're absolutely correct. You didn't say it was harmful, you simply said it was unbalanced. I was the one who said that what I feed my dogs was not unbalance OR harmful.



> If you just added fresh, wholesome meats and bones I aggree would be helpful but adding so much inappropriate food to the diet its like you are trying to feed a human child. All those steamed veggies, fruits, yogurt, etc, etc, etc.


What, exactly, is inappropriate? For example, when I offer a fish meal, I'll add steamed asperagus or green beans, maybe some brown rice. I use fresh fruits as treats, which is far more healthy than many "treats" sold for dogs, and free of grains, low in calories, and very much enjoyed by my dogs. Plain live culture yogurt is a good source of probiotics, and my male, who came to me with serious gastrointestinal problems, is given a small amount of yogurt daily. He needs a snack before bedtime, or he vomits yellow bile in the mornings. Yogurt or cottage cheese (about 2 tablespoons) given before bedtime prevents this gagging and vomiting. Sardines, also given as a treat (and certainly not every day!), is a good source of omega 3s, very good for skin and coat.


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## Billiie (Jan 16, 2008)

I usually don't add anything to their meals.. just because they get picky if I forget to add supplements the next day  But when I did, I added Vitamin E, which was amazing for their coats! It made Owen's coat sooo soft.. it was awesome.

But now I usually just put a raw egg in their dish around the afternoon or evening, or sometimes I add olive oil to their meals. Other than that, if they get veggies/treats, they are for training


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> What, exactly, is inappropriate? For example, when I offer a fish meal, I'll add steamed asperagus or green beans, maybe some brown rice.


The fish, naturally, is great. The asperagus & beans and rice are things their bodies are just not equipped to handle so why bother?



> Plain live culture yogurt is a good source of probiotics, and my male, who came to me with serious gastrointestinal problems, is given a small amount of yogurt daily.


Equating dogs eating yogurt with humans eating yogurt is a trip down the wrong path. Dogs have such acidic stomach acids that the bacteria in yogurt is killed when it gets to the stomach and none arrives in the gut where it would do some good. If canine stomach acids can kill such powerful bacteria as e-coli and salmonella, how is yougurt bacteria going to make it through. It is real tough to find a probiotic that can make it through the dog's stomach. The most reliable way to get probiotics in a dog is by way of supositories in the anus. I have never been convinced that probiotics accomplish anything anyway. Anytime flora in the gut gets deplinished for any particular reason, it will build back up in a day or two if you do nothing.



> Sardines, also given as a treat (and certainly not every day!), is a good source of omega 3s, very good for skin and coat.


Sardines are great, You should give them as a snack before bedtime. Anyway, it doesn't really matter what you feed for snacks as long as you treat them like ice cream and cake for humans and don't expect any nutritional value to come from them.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

beavboyz said:


> Rice is really good for dogs.
> 
> We live on a farm and our dogs loved sweet corn. When we came home from selling corn they would put their two paws up on the wagon, steal a few cobs and lie down and eat them like humans. Peel the husks off and then chew the corn off. They also liked carrots, and the vets said both are good for them.


Dogs really aren't built to digest and fully utilise either rice or corn. They might eat them for the nice taste and smell, the same way we eat chocolate or cake, but they don't derive very much nutritional value from these foods.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

beavboyz said:


> Oh, our vet recommended it for our dog with stomach problems, rice and chicken diet. I was tempted to eat out of the dog bowl


The vet is wrong about corn and rice. Chicken is good for a dog if it's raw. Rice isn't even a nutritious food for humans and less so for dogs.

Speaking of being tempted to eat out of the dog's bowl, you really should eat a couple of meals of kibble and see what your dog has to go through. 

I have challenged many kibble feeders to eat a meal of kibble and not one has taken me up on it yet.


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## kathrynrs (Apr 5, 2008)

I feed my dogs Innova, small bites and I add to that a mixture of ground beef, cooked with brown rice and carrots.
I make up this mixture every week with 2 pounds of ground beef, 1 1/2 cups of cooked rice and 1/2 cooked carrots. Mix it all together and store about 3/4 cup in a small baggie and freeze them.
Then at meal time, I mix 2 ups of dry Innova with 1 of these packetts of defrosted ground beef mixture into a bowl. I split this amoung 2 small dogs. They get this once a day in the evenings, and 2X a day on the weekends.
They love it and I know they are getting a little extra.


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## fyzbo (Jun 19, 2008)

RawFedDogs; said:


> It's good to hear from someone so knowledgable about the digestive system. Howerver you are making the same mistake that many dog owners make. You are trying to equate the digestive system of a dog with that of a human. A dog, being a carnivore, has a much different digestive system than a human, an omnivore. The systems are quite different as one is designed to digest meat and bones and the other meat and veggies, mostly veggies.





RawFedDogs said:


> The vet is wrong about corn and rice. Chicken is good for a dog if it's raw. Rice isn't even a nutritious food for humans and less so for dogs.
> 
> Speaking of being tempted to eat out of the dog's bowl, you really should eat a couple of meals of kibble and see what your dog has to go through.
> 
> I have challenged many kibble feeders to eat a meal of kibble and not one has taken me up on it yet.


So a dog's digestive system is different then a humans therefore they should be fed dog specific food, but humans should be expected to eat dog food?


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

fyzbo said:


> So a dog's digestive system is different then a humans therefore they should be fed dog specific food, but humans should be expected to eat dog food?


I'm pretty sure RawFedDogs was kidding...


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

fyzbo said:


> So a dog's digestive system is different then a humans therefore they should be fed dog specific food, but humans should be expected to eat dog food?


There is something you obviously don't understand. The ingredients in what we call dog food is much more suitable for a human diet then a dog's diet. Dogs are carnivores and as such should only eat meat, bones, and organs. At least 50% of the ingredients, by weight, in what we call dog food are grains, fruits, veggies and other plant material. All of these items are suitable food for omnivores (humans) but unsuitable for carnivores (dogs) so there should be no reason for a human not to eat what we call dog food.

Actually kibble is a hightly processed human food sold as dog food.



rosemaryninja said:


> I'm pretty sure RawFedDogs was kidding...


No, I am absolutely serious. People claim that they are feeding their dogs this wonderful food but they wouldn't eat a meal of it themselves on a $100 bet. If you won't eat what you are feeding your dog, its not good enough to feed him either.


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## fyzbo (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd love to see the results of an impartial long term study. I'm sure dog food companies conduct studies, but I can't find any published on the web.

It would be very interesting to see one that involved hundreds of dogs over a time span of at least 5 years.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

fyzbo said:


> I'd love to see the results of an impartial long term study. I'm sure dog food companies conduct studies, but I can't find any published on the web.


Of course you can't find them. The ONLY tests done by dog food companies are done by AAFCO standards to enable the company to put the label "Complete and Balanced" on the bag. In that study, 8 dogs of the group the food was designed for (puppy, adult, senior, etc) are fed the food exclusively for 6 months. 6 of the 8 dogs have to survive for the entire 6 months of eating that food. Of those 6, none can loose more than 15% of his body weight. That means a 100lb dog can't loose more than 15 lbs in the 6 month trial period. There is no requirement as to breed or size or gender of the test dogs. This is the only test run by the dog food companies.



> It would be very interesting to see one that involved hundreds of dogs over a time span of at least 5 years.


There is only one such study that I am aware of and it was done by 2 European vets. It basically proved that dogs fed a non-commercial diet will live an average of 32 months longer than dogs fed a commercial diet. Non-commercial diets include cooked diets and raw diets that might or might not include fruits, grains, and veggies. Commercial diets are kibble or canned or any mixture of those two. That says a lot doesn't it? Here are two links to that study. 

Long Life Study Summary
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapySummary.pdf

Actual Study
http://www.ukrmb.co.uk/images/LippertSapyFullReport.pdf


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## fyzbo (Jun 19, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> Of course you can't find them. The ONLY tests done by dog food companies are done by AAFCO standards to enable the company to put the label "Complete and Balanced" on the bag. In that study, 8 dogs of the group the food was designed for (puppy, adult, senior, etc) are fed the food exclusively for 6 months. 6 of the 8 dogs have to survive for the entire 6 months of eating that food. Of those 6, none can loose more than 15% of his body weight. That means a 100lb dog can't loose more than 15 lbs in the 6 month trial period. There is no requirement as to breed or size or gender of the test dogs. This is the only test run by the dog food companies.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's too bad that's the only study as it is not controlled at all. Their are so many variables that could be changing the data they did not account for, including obvious things like exercise.

They also did not seperate out the dog foods. Including no name foods with no meat sources together with foods like canidae seems odd.

They did conclude that dogs being fed non-commercial food live longer, but there is no way to know why. What was fed is not examined. It could come down to something unknown, for instance, perhaps people who cook for their dogs are more likely to walk them, or have them up to date on tick medicine and vaccinations. Or it could be that dogs thrive on left overs eating everything from broccoli to hot dogs. Or even that there were lots of people feeding raw and that made all the difference. We'll never know.

I wonder if we could set up an online study, where each member would fill out a survey sheet weekly and we can compound the results. Unfortunately this would still not be controlled at all, but it may be interesting.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

fyzbo said:


> They also did not seperate out the dog foods. Including no name foods with no meat sources together with foods like canidae seems odd.


How complicated would you like to make it? It appears you want to list every indiviual brand of dog food and every possible variation of a raw diet. I am perfectly happy with the study and am confident that the information is accurate.



> They did conclude that dogs being fed non-commercial food live longer, but there is no way to know why.


Hehe, look at the ingredients in commercial dog food and understand where they came from and it becomes obvious why.



> What was fed is not examined.


I think it was examined. It was either highly processed commercial food or it was unprocessed whole food.



> It could come down to something unknown, for instance, perhaps people who cook for their dogs are more likely to walk them, or have them up to date on tick medicine and vaccinations.


I think that is just looking for other reasons because you can't accept that commercial dog food in far inferior to whole foods. Everyone knows that highly processed food is inferior ot whole foods even for humans. Any nutritionist will tell you that.

Most of the raw feeders that I know personlaly or communicate with regularly on the internet don't vaccinate their dogs at all or minimally vaccinate. I'm in the minimal vaccination camp. My Thor hasn't had any vaccinatins since puppy shots except for one rabies shot. I have no plans to have him vaccinated ever again. My Abby hasn't been vaccinated in 5 years except for one rabies shot and I am positive she will never have another vaccination the rest of her life. But thats a subject for another thread. 



> Or it could be that dogs thrive on left overs eating everything from broccoli to hot dogs.


I think this study proves and I've seen it written by other vets that a dog fed nothing but leftovers will be healthier than a dog fed commercial foods.



> Or even that there were lots of people feeding raw and that made all the difference.


I don't know that that would make a difference.



> We'll never know.


Well, we do know. It's spelled out very plainly. Dogs fed a home made diet live an average of 32 months longer than dogs fed a diet of commercial food. If you want to shoot holes in their findings, it doesn't change the results. The exact brands of commercial foods and the exact noncommercial diets would be pretty average over 5 years with 500 dogs.

[/quote]I wonder if we could set up an online study, where each member would fill out a survey sheet weekly and we can compound the results. Unfortunately this would still not be controlled at all, but it may be interesting.[/QUOTE]

I don't know what you would be looking for. If you want something similar to the study we are discussing, you would have to wait for every dog to die before you had any results. I don't know how else you could measure health over a lifetime.

I don't think vet visits would be a good measure. I just took my 8yo Abby for a vet visit with a medical problem last week for the first time in 7 years. My 3 1/2 yoThor has never been to the vet for a medical problem.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> People claim that they are feeding their dogs this wonderful food but they wouldn't eat a meal of it themselves on a $100 bet. If you won't eat what you are feeding your dog, its not good enough to feed him either.


Wait a minute - I wouldn't eat raw chicken backs or raw beef liver either! 

But I agree with you that dogs fed a whole foods homemade diet are healthier than dogs fed commercial foods. I mean, I can get all my nutrients by eating Total cereal everyday too, but I don't believe I'd be truly healthy.


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## fyzbo (Jun 19, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> How complicated would you like to make it? It appears you want to list every indiviual brand of dog food and every possible variation of a raw diet. I am perfectly happy with the study and am confident that the information is accurate.


Yes that would be great! I'd love to see the difference between Iams and Dog Chow. Information may be accurate, but it doesn't say much.



RawFedDogs said:


> Hehe, look at the ingredients in commercial dog food and understand where they came from and it becomes obvious why.


Which dog food? You have to admit they can range wildly. They vary from canned, to frozen, to dry kibble. They also vary in ingredients and quality of ingredients.



RawFedDogs said:


> I think it was examined. It was either highly processed commercial food or it was unprocessed whole food.


 Actually it doesn't say squat about processed vs unprocessed, just commercial vs non-commercial. The commercial may have been whole food, frozen and marketed, the non-commercial may have been mac'n cheese and ramen noodles. That is the problem, they do not release what was fed only whether it was commercial.




RawFedDogs said:


> I think that is just looking for other reasons because you can't accept that commercial dog food in far inferior to whole foods. Everyone knows that highly processed food is inferior ot whole foods even for humans. Any nutritionist will tell you that.


I never debated that. Whole food is always going to be better then highly processed food designed to not need refridgeration and to take a long time to spoil. Too bad this study has nothing to do with processed vs unprocessed.

Am I poking wholes in the study, you bet ya. Any study needs to be examined for each possibility before drawing conclusions, otherwise any conclusion I draw can be correct. I could conclude that potatoes and onions is better then frozen branded dog food, after all it would be home cooked rather then commercial. I of course would be wrong.



RawFedDogs said:


> Most of the raw feeders that I know personlaly or communicate with regularly on the internet don't vaccinate their dogs at all or minimally vaccinate. I'm in the minimal vaccination camp. My Thor hasn't had any vaccinatins since puppy shots except for one rabies shot. I have no plans to have him vaccinated ever again. My Abby hasn't been vaccinated in 5 years except for one rabies shot and I am positive she will never have another vaccination the rest of her life. But thats a subject for another thread.


ok



RawFedDogs said:


> I think this study proves and I've seen it written by other vets that a dog fed nothing but leftovers will be healthier than a dog fed commercial foods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just for more data. Commercial vs non-commercial doesn't tell me all that much. I want to know about what foods, what type, what ingredients etc. There are just so many unanswered questions. For instance, is something like http://www.auntjeni.com/ considered commercial or non-commercial. Technically it's a commercial product, but it probably has more in common with a home made diet then with a cheep kibble.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

fyzbo said:


> Yes that would be great! I'd love to see the difference between Iams and Dog Chow. Information may be accurate, but it doesn't say much.


It says a volumes to me. It says dogs fed a raw diet will live longer than dogs fed kibble. Plain and simple, no argument.



> Which dog food? You have to admit they can range wildly. They vary from canned, to frozen, to dry kibble. They also vary in ingredients and quality of ingredients.


I don't think there is a heck of a lot of difference from one brand of kibble to another. They will all have one or more of chicken, lamb, turkey and occasionally beef. They will all contain grains of some sort or startchy vegetables. Almost all will have more grain than meat. They will all contain preservatives. They will all be highly processed. They will all contain mainly unusable reminants from human food processors. They will all have added vitamins and minerals because they were cooked out in the extrusion process. I just don't see a lot of difference in the kibbles. There are a couple of exceptions but they make their product on very slightly better than the average. There are a few exceptions on the low side also that make them slightly worse than the average.

Same with canned foods.



> Actually it doesn't say squat about processed vs unprocessed, just commercial vs non-commercial.


Yes it does.



> The commercial may have been whole food, frozen and marketed, the non-commercial may have been mac'n cheese and ramen noodles. That is the problem, they do not release what was fed only whether it was commercial.


Commercial dog food made from whole food? Of course you jest.  It's possible some of the non-commercial stuff would be mac'n cheese.



> Whole food is always going to be better then highly processed food designed to not need refridgeration and to take a long time to spoil. Too bad this study has nothing to do with processed vs unprocessed.


It does and you know it does.



> Am I poking wholes in the study, you bet ya. Any study needs to be examined for each possibility before drawing conclusions, otherwise any conclusion I draw can be correct. I could conclude that potatoes and onions is better then frozen branded dog food, after all it would be home cooked rather then commercial. I of course would be wrong.


Of course you are just being silly now and grabbing at straws. You know better.




> Just for more data. Commercial vs non-commercial doesn't tell me all that much. I want to know about what foods, what type, what ingredients etc.


It tells me volumes. It won't tell a person anything if he really doesn't want to know.



> For instance, is something like http://www.auntjeni.com/ considered commercial or non-commercial. Technically it's a commercial product, but it probably has more in common with a home made diet then with a cheep kibble.


That could be commercial and it will bring up the average of commercial foods, don't you think?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

This thread was about adding stuff to kibble. If another kibble thread is turned into a raw is better than you thread, those members may want to search out another forum.


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