# What do you think about dog whisperer?



## loveyourdog (Aug 28, 2011)

I am watching this show lately. I like it. What is your opinion about him?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Oh, good lord.

Please do a search for "Dog whisperer" or "Cesar" and brace yourself for a full day of reading.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

RonE said:


> ... and brace yourself for a full day of reading.


I'd rather drive a six-inch spike through my forehead. Slowly.

like this :doh:


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

For a "dog whisperer" I'd recommend reading Paul Owens' books. I wrote a review of one of his books and have copy/pasted part of it below.
_
The Dog Whisperer: A Compassionate, Nonviolent Approach to Dog Training_, 2nd Edition
Paul Owens
283 pages

The short review is that this seems to be an excellent, semi-comprehensive book for anyone new to dogs with good general information about providing a good life for your dog. For more experienced folks, it might be an interesting read, but not new material. It’s quite obvious that Owens’ is a product of the 60s, so if you are turned off by the mention of “life energy” in raw food or resistant to meditation and relaxation exercises, this is not the book for you. If you are looking for a short, step-by-step guide to basic dog training, this is probably not for you. If, however, you are looking for basic information about raising a well-behaved dog and principles of positive training methods, this is a great start. 

As I indicated in the short review, I think this is an excellent book for novice dog owners. It’s well-written, provides a solid general overview of caring for a dog, and a great foundation for building a healthy relationship with a well-mannered dog. My only complaint is that it ended abruptly. Given the general tone of the book, I expected it to end with pep talk or parting words of wisdom.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

RonE said:


> Oh, good lord.
> 
> Please do a search for "Dog whisperer" or "Cesar" and brace yourself for a full day of reading.





petpeeve said:


> I'd rather drive a six-inch spike through my forehead. Slowly.
> 
> like this :doh:


HAHA...Ya Im agreeing with RonE and Petpeeve on this one!LOL

HOWEVER....this made me LOLLOL!! 
Cesar Millan - The Idiot Whisperer from Lilan Bowden, Paul Bartunek, Mano Agapion, and Jonny Svarzbein


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

He has a spectacular dentist...


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> He has a spectacular dentist...


Indeed, he does!


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

He has a few useful things to say. I think one of the more useful things I've heard him say was that people have problems with dogs raised from puppies because they raise them like human children and not like dogs. Also some of the things he has to say about being calm and how dogs can sense when you are nervous. 

Sometimes I like watching the show to see some of the quirky behaviors some of the dogs have.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

OMG im watching one ep now with a dog that has no front legs... Its amazing how dogs can get over disabilities & such, he is right about one thing... Animals dont feel sorry for themselves . In fact I have seen those type of dogs run the show with other dogs.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> HOWEVER....this made me LOLLOL!!
> Cesar Millan - The Idiot Whisperer from Lilan Bowden, Paul Bartunek, Mano Agapion, and Jonny Svarzbein


That was too funny!


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## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

I like the show for entertainment. I know a lot of people don't like him because his techniques are not always right. His show can have some useful points sometimes so he's not always wrong. He is not a professional trainer- not a professional behaviorist.  

What usually is the problem with any show fixing dogs is that a lot of idiot people are like if "so and so can do that simple thing to fix that dog then it can fix my dog too!" Then there's so many steps in between and many follow ups that are lost on the editing table. It's not the complete solution and therefore isn't the answer to fixing a problem at home. I've heard though a lot of people say they watched a TV show and justified why they do what they do to their dog and haven't really researched anything proper about training.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

So Cavalier said:


> That was too funny!


Wasnt it?!LOL It was posted on a dog nutrition forum under "if you need a good laugh!"....and Ive got to agree...it gave me one!HAHA


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I dont hate the guy, I dont love him either I will watch him when he is on just to see what he will have to say about [blank] dog with [blank] problem. Some of the stuff he says is useful, but you have to filter thru the BS... But just like "natural horsemanship" in horses, it can seem like god's word to the novice owner. But like him or hate him... One has to admit that it does take some knowledge /skill to do what he does & if a person doesn't know how to read dogs, one can get into b-i-g trouble.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

He has got some good points

1. Dogs need balance
2. Rules, boundaries and limitations
3. Exercise can make a destructive demon into a passive angel.

He has some bad theories

1. Alpha Rolling
2. Dominance theory (I'm not going to completely debunk the dominence theory, because I think it holds *some* legitimacy, but only when it comes to dog pack order, we are not dogs we are humans and dogs don't see us as dogs, they see us as humans so we don't need to worry about being "pack leaders")((But that's just my theory, and it may change or it may not.))
3. others but it is late and I have spent too much time reading to think much about cesar.

My bottom line:
When it comes to tv trainers like cesar millan, victoria stillwell, the guy at the end of my leash, its all for entertainment, there is too much editing for most of it to be taken seriously for my taste.


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

My dogs bark at the TV if I put it on, so I dont watch it.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I still dont know how ppl end up with the probs I see on DW, I have never had dogs that: obsess over the TV, are reactive, etc... I just don't know how that happens lol.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Dogs are calmer in Texas, because it's simply too hot.


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## loveyourdog (Aug 28, 2011)

KodiBarracuda said:


> He has got some good points
> 
> 1. Dogs need balance
> 2. Rules, boundaries and limitations
> ...


Thanks for your serious thought. I also think it is mostly for entertainment purpose. His methods are not all junky, but I think the same method is not applicable to all the dogs.

Thanks everyone for your humor too. The video was very interesting. We should open a section for this kind of stuff. What do you think?


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## casey15 (Sep 24, 2011)

He knows alot about dog psychology and I agree with him on some areas, but disagree with others. Overall though I think he really helps dogs with horrible behavioral problems. I love his slogan "I rehabilitate dogs and I train people"


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yeah I have (esp in his more recent EPs) to say also that I have never seen him do anything I would consider damaging to a dog, his earlier EPs they were a little... Abrasive both to dogs & ppl. But I have seen him do some what I would call remarkable things esp with scared/fearful/low self esteem dogs.

Perhaps some of the probs ppl have with him is that hr is on the arrogant/conceded side, which I could see could rub some ppl the wrong way


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> Perhaps some of the probs ppl have with him is that hr is on the arrogant/conceded side, which I could see could rub some ppl the wrong way


Of course! It has nothing to do with his invalid, unjustified, and outdated philosophies on training. No, not that.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

abi88 said:


> HAHA...Ya Im agreeing with RonE and Petpeeve on this one!LOL
> 
> HOWEVER....this made me LOLLOL!!
> Cesar Millan - The Idiot Whisperer from Lilan Bowden, Paul Bartunek, Mano Agapion, and Jonny Svarzbein


LMAO! That video was nothing if not accurate.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I didn't think his philosophies are totally horrible have seen him do some pretty cool stuff with some pretty broken dogs & I do think his love for dogs is genuine.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

all i have to say is...


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I think he has his place. he does some things I am not a fan of(stringing up a brachy dog for example to stop it from spinning) and I thing for some dogs his methodes would do more harm then good. however his basic principals are very sound, and I would take him over victoria stillwell any day of the week.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

I seriously HATE some of the things he does and says ... but when I heard that my neighbor, who lets her dogs run the neighborhood (and with a laugh told me it would be okay if Mandy killed her Chihuahua if it came on our property), likes to watch Cecar and actually started to keep her dogs up ... I changed my mind. If Cecar can get people to understand that they need to pay attention to their dogs and EXERCISE them now and then I'm all for him.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I hate how he thinks he's some of all breed expert or something, esp when he says that a dog can't be breed first... But IMO that's part of WHO A DOG IS. In reality some of the stuff he says is crap, oh well, take what you can use & discard the rest, that's what I say. Sadly hating the guy & slinging mud isnt going to do any good, the best thing is to simply switch the channel.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> I hate how he thinks he's some of all breed expert or something, esp when he says that a dog can't be breed first... But IMO that's part of WHO A DOG IS. In reality some of the stuff he says is crap, oh well, take what you can use & discard the rest, that's what I say. Sadly hating the guy & slinging mud isnt going to do any good, the best thing is to simply switch the channel.


Yeah, pretty much - keep what you can use and toss the rest.

Heh, about the only reason I have the show on is so Wally can look at the dogs on TV because I love seeing him react. The one time I saw him whine at a fearful dog on the show and look at me like I was supposed to go in the TV and save her, I'll never forget that - was crazy because he's never again displayed that reaction. 

I mean, I believe he thinks there's something on the other side of the TV but I'm not about to try it. With my luck, I'm in the Twilight Zone and poof, I'm trapped in TV world.

Otherwise, I turn it so he can bark at Dora for 20 minutes. I guess that says it all - I'd rather listen to Dora's squeaky voice and his LOUD barking in a closed space for 20 minutes straight.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> I hate how he thinks he's some of all breed expert or something, esp when he says that a dog can't be breed first... But IMO that's part of WHO A DOG IS. In reality some of the stuff he says is crap, oh well, take what you can use & discard the rest, that's what I say. Sadly hating the guy & slinging mud isnt going to do any good, the best thing is to simply switch the channel.


I don't know what CM thinks about himself, I surely would not consider myself any kind of expert, Breed or Dog but with 90 breeds trained I will repeat what I have posted before, it's not the breed it's the dog in the breed. No more, no less. 

I surely could not say I'm an Italian Greyhound / Irish Wolfhound / Shiba Inu / Portuguese Water Dog expert cause I've trained only one of each breed (that and other one dog trained breeds) they were pretty much just dogs. 4 legs, head and tails optional. There was no big mystique/aura about any of the other one dog breeds I trained through the years, I just trained them.

I personally think the mystique comes from the breed books, because when done reading you have the idea that any dog of the particular breed book you finished reading about can walk on water and turn iron into gold. Or just talk to some of the owners of that breed if you want more walk on water info.

I know people don't want to call CM a dog trainer or a behaviourist so I will call him a dog person that is making a lot of money (at least much more than I have) and on TV appears to be enjoying what he is doing(of course he could just be a good actor). I'm still neutral on him and occasionally do watch his program, why not it's still got dogs on it and maybe I can pick up a tidbit of info.

I do agree with the taking of some stuff and discarding the rest cause I personally think that should be done with any info from any experts or any of the expert's groupies.

Geeze, please feel free to discard any of this stuff I have written as same rules apply.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I have to admit that I have watched the program in the distant past as an alternative to the other crummy shows that were on during a particular day. I also admit that I have used the sound "CHHH!" and the "Eh-Eh" from that other woman who's name I can no longer remember. To really be honest I must say that I get the same reaction from my dogs shaking out a plastic bag for the trash can. The only difference I find is that I am not getting paid to do so.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Abbylynn said:


> I have to admit that I have watched the program in the distant past as an alternative to the other crummy shows that were on during a particular day. I also admit that I have used the sound "CHHH!" and the "Eh-Eh" from that other woman who's name I can no longer remember. To really be honest I must say that I get the same reaction from my dogs shaking out a plastic bag for the trash can. The only difference I find is that I am not getting paid to do so.


Lol that's why ppl hate him... Cuz he's rich


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## barqui (Sep 6, 2011)

He's not entirely wrong. He uses methods that many would disagree to. Some things that he says make sense. He's not always leash popping and choking dogs, I've seen him use positive reinforcement to distract an aggressive dog.

I enjoy watching the show cos it's good entertainment, but I won't follow his methods blindly.


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## GestaltZe (Sep 8, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Some of the stuff he says is useful, but you have to filter thru the BS... But just like "natural horsemanship" in horses, it can seem like god's word to the novice owner. But like him or hate him... One has to admit that it does take some knowledge /skill to do what he does & if a person doesn't know how to read dogs, one can get into b-i-g trouble.


Please don't compare Cesar Milan's training to Pat Parelli's. I get the comparison you're trying to make, but natural horsemanship is very effective when done right, and is based in trust and an understanding of what makes horses 'tick'. Dominance dog training, on the other hand, is a lot more like Lyon's horse training; based in intimidation and potentially very dangerous. 

That said, I (stupidly) used 'dominance' training for a long time with my dog, at the urging of a friend of mine. It ended with a fearful, aggressive, unhappy dog who (I feel) most people would have euthanized. I regret using the method, and since I've switched to methods recommended on this forum, our relationship has improved in leaps and bounds. The only technique I've retained from Milan is the use of a noise instead of the word 'no' when correcting (Usually, when he tries to sneak food off the table), as 'no' isn't nearly as sharp or attention-grabbing.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I wasn't talking about Pat Parelli... Whom I dont really like anyway... Too much closeness with the horse, I work with race horses foe a living as a groom & I dont know about you, but I do NOT want one of those crazy monsters "close" to me., I was using "Nat horsemanship" as an umbrella term to anyone who uses those "type" methods or a variant of them (Clinton Anderson, Monty Roberts, Chris Cox, Dennis Reis to name a few). CM just "talks" dominance but in his later EPs (season 3 & on I would say) esp I haven't really seen him "act" on it, he has evolved, I just think he throws in the dominance talk to "hide" it that he has changed maybe to avoid heckling (tho I doubt that would happen). 

I dont belong to a "click" in dog training


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## GestaltZe (Sep 8, 2011)

I don't mean to derail the thread, but I have to point out a few things: Not everyone who calls themselves 'natural horsemen' really are. Also, I don't support horse racing as an industry, as it's a pretty disgusting and cruel sport overall, but yes, those animals are pretty crazy. It's a bad comparison, but I wouldn't want to be close with these horses the same way I wouldn't want to be close with a dog trained to fight; they weren't socialized correctly, have uncertain lineage (in terms of temperament), and are just plain scary animals. However, many people (particularly those who use less intimidating techniques) have relationships with their horses which are not unlike the relationships many people here have with their dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

GestaltZe said:


> I don't mean to derail the thread, but I have to point out a few things: Not everyone who calls themselves 'natural horsemen' really are. Also, I don't support horse racing as an industry, as it's a pretty disgusting and cruel sport overall, but yes, those animals are pretty crazy. It's a bad comparison, but I wouldn't want to be close with these horses the same way I wouldn't want to be close with a dog trained to fight; they weren't socialized correctly, have uncertain lineage (in terms of temperament), and are just plain scary animals. However, many people (particularly those who use less intimidating techniques) have relationships with their horses which are not unlike the relationships many people here have with their dogs.


Hey you work with hot bloods sometimes you got trouble. I always got a chuckle when people would worry about the back end of a horse, it appears many have never seen a stud strike out with front feet. When I was a kid I worked at a place called Ross Lara farms in Downers Grove IL and had to turn some of those rascals out in paddocks every morning it was an adventure.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

hast said:


> If Cecar can get people to understand that they need to pay attention to their dogs and EXERCISE them now and then I'm all for him.


I'm not a fan of Caesar (partially because we don't have cable), or his methods, but I do agree with the above. I'm living somewhere where the main theory of dog "care" is to let them wander around, off leash, all of the time, with no real attention, training or care. If these people watched Caesar and started to pay ANY attention to their dogs it would be an improvement! If they really tried applying his training methods though...hmm, not sure how I'd feel about that.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

*Q:* What do you think about dog whisperer?

*A:* Not too often ... :wink: lol



Seriously though, I think he keeps the discussion forum ledgers in the black.


(end of opinion)

:clap2:

(period)


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Lol that's why ppl hate him... Cuz he's rich


Shrug. Lots of people have more money than I do. I don't HATE him. I do sometimes curse him when I get a client in who has seen their dog's behavior deteriorate since they started watching the show and trying to emulate him. Hum, maybe I should LOVE him, since it brings me a fair amount of income. But I feel bad for the dogs. And even worse for the ones who end up in the shelter instead of my class. What he says is not totally without merit. The part about exercise is good. I also want dogs to wait at doors until I release them (not so I can be alpha and go first, but for safety's sake.) I have one guy in class right now who is a big Cesar fan. He doesn't jerk his dog, and I allow the occasional TSSSST! to pass without comment.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yeah most of the stuff I do is for SAFETY sake, (most of the stuff you do, paws) also I teach them "excuse me" so if they are laying in the way & Im carrying something heavy/ awkward i csn get them to move so its safe for all

Im glad that someone gets it about race horses. My fiancee breaks babies, we try to put as good a foundation on our horses as we csn (not everyone does, hence why there are so many crazy ones) it takes a different set of skills to deal with a race horse, not many backyard/ hobby horse ppl could do it. The industry isn't cruel, that's what animal "rights" ppl & ppl who are ignorant say... I used to think that too, but these horses get better care then most properly owned horses: top feed, supplements, fresh bedding (as in stripped) every few days & expert care... They are just like any other top athlete, they have their aches/ pains & sometimes they injure themselves.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

abi88 said:


> HAHA...Ya Im agreeing with RonE and Petpeeve on this one!LOL
> 
> HOWEVER....this made me LOLLOL!!
> Cesar Millan - The Idiot Whisperer from Lilan Bowden, Paul Bartunek, Mano Agapion, and Jonny Svarzbein


That video is so funny and sadly so close to accurate on some owners. The actual "dog problem" is their owner. ha ha


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Milan knows some things that are definitely worth learning, but as many people here agree, he has a lot of things that are off the mark. The long and short of it is that dogs aren't wolves. There are some similarities, but systems based on comparisons of dogs to wolves are destined to have major flaws. I think of it like the Leerburg training videos. Ed Frowley (I believe that's the name) knows a lot of things about types of aggression and behavior. So, I've watched his videos to learn something. His training methods are very harsh, however, primarily pain-based. I don't use painful training methods. To me, a 'correction' is telling one of my dogs to drop something, not yanking on their necks with prong collars. 

Anyway, it isn't like these people are clueless. Just learn what you can but question everything. People often question positive-reinforcement training. And they should. It's contrary to what many people are used to, and the more it's questioned, the more clear it becomes that positive-reinforcement is the way to go.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

For my training class, I just had to watch a few episodes from the first season and point out calming signals I saw that were ignored. It was actually bordering on horrifying for me. To see these dogs begging to be left alone but getting collar pops, kicks and slaps cleverly hidden as "touches", and being strangled was disgusting. I don't know how an owner can see their dog being treated like that and think it was acceptable.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Lindbert said:


> For my training class, I just had to watch a few episodes from the first season and point out calming signals I saw that were ignored. It was actually bordering on horrifying for me. To see these dogs begging to be left alone but getting collar pops, kicks and slaps cleverly hidden as "touches", and being strangled was disgusting. I don't know how an owner can see their dog being treated like that and think it was acceptable.


This.
I've tried watching an episode when there's nothing else on tv but it makes me want to pull my hair out. I'd rather just eat my dinner in silence.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

We had to practice scruff holding and collar grabs on Brody (not as discipline, simply to get him used to being handled in that way, you never know when your dog will get away from you and may not have a collar on!) in class yesterday and I felt HORRIBLE because it was obvious he was a bit uncomfortable with that handling even though he was still taking treats and not tense at all. I don't know what I would do if I saw my dog seriously stressed out in the name of "training."


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't think I'd be down for that even in the name of training. Kaki pancakes if scruffed. It's a remarkably effective way to shut her down fast.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> We had to practice scruff holding and collar grabs on Brody (not as discipline, simply to get him used to being handled in that way, you never know when your dog will get away from you and may not have a collar on!) in class yesterday and I felt HORRIBLE because it was obvious he was a bit uncomfortable with that handling even though he was still taking treats and not tense at all. I don't know what I would do if I saw my dog seriously stressed out in the name of "training."


We address collar grabs in my beginner classes. Starting with just touching them, then hook finger around, then light pressure, etc. all combined with clicks and treats. I think it's normal for dogs to not like having their collars grabbed. With building the behavior, they may never be totally thrilled by it, but learn that it's not skeery. We also work the same way with fingers in the mouth, handling feet, etc. I've never had my students "scruff" their dog. We do teach dogs to target hands with their chin, which makes them pretty easy to catch.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> We address collar grabs in my beginner classes. Starting with just touching them, then hook finger around, then light pressure, etc. all combined with clicks and treats. I think it's normal for dogs to not like having their collars grabbed. With building the behavior, they may never be totally thrilled by it, but learn that it's not skeery. We also work the same way with fingers in the mouth, handling feet, etc. I've never had my students "scruff" their dog. We do teach dogs to target hands with their chin, which makes them pretty easy to catch.


The issue we originally wanted to work on was him aggressing when someone who isn't me grabs his collar. Hands in mouth, playing with his feet, and touching anywhere else are all fair game to him, however all bets are off if someone grabs his collar. He was definitely handled not so nicely by his collar in the past because he went from happy dog to biting my husband in a second flat when my husband reached for his collar. That's definitely not cool if he got loose and a good Samaritan would try to catch him. We made it up to husband's fingers under the collar with him staying calm, but if any pressure is applied he freaks out. At least he's throwing some calming signals now instead of going straight for the bite.

Grabbing his scruff is actually much better tolerated than a collar grab (for this dog at least). Pam thinks it's because I spend so much time obsessing and playing with the gigantic flap of loose skin around his neck when I'm petting and massaging him, so he already has some positive experience with having that area touched. We're doing private sessions instead of a group class because of his reactivity, so this isn't something she teaches for every dog, but we agreed that it wouldn't be a bad thing for Brody to become accustomed to.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Never had a dog like that that I raised from a pup so I don't know what I would do with that lol. A lot.of probs I haven't had with any of the behavioral probs... Even with my "worst" pups.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Yeah, the downfall of adult dog rescue is dealing with the behavioral messes people turn their dogs into. This dog survived a hellish nightmare and is still mostly social except for some "quirks." I would think he would have more of a problem with handling of his mouth because he has cigarette burn scars and healed cuts all over his lips, chin, cheeks, and gums. Poor puppy has been through a lot and escaped most severe behavioral problems without using cesar's methods!!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have noticed (& im not just talking about DW himself but actually more traditional methods, I just reference him cuz he's pretty well known for example purposes) im not making a judgment on AMYONES choice of training method which is their own business, this is merely an observation:

Ppl who use positive methods based on science (which isn't always best either, science isn't always right: 40 yrs ago the existence of the giant squid was denied, foods that are known to be bad were ok 50 yrs ago, science is always changing... Just saying). I dont condone amy method but I am very good at "imitating" behaviors both human & dog.i can discipline like a dog & at times I do & it works, I find it amusing that ppl who use more modern techniques say his "blank" behavior is getting less but it never goes away, my dogs are perfect angels that never rest to stimuli. Im not going to negotiate or bribe or "load the bank" to get my dog to obey... Either do it or consequences will ensue... Period.

Now does this make me a bad, cruel person? No. my girls are happy, they aren't robotic, or afraid, they watch me eagerly like a cutting horse watches a cow but I dont have to carry: treats, toys, clickers, negotiate or bribe, plead or hope that my dogs will behave, thanks to the relationship we have developed, i fear no situation.

So i guess my question is: if these new methods work better, then why do i see so many " reactive" or otherwise badly behaved dogs? Yet i am often scorned for using more traditional Kolher (spelling???) type methods when for some ppl, hey work, esp if one can find a "good" traditional type trainer to work with.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Actually, I don't think Wally minds any more since one of the ways I "agitate" him for play is pulling on his hair. 

I can pick him up off the ground by his hair (like a foot off the ground at least) but he doesn't care. He probably thinks it some weird game.

So I don't think scruffing would work on him anyway - unless I was mad, and even then, he's playing off of that before I even would get to his scruff (not that I discipline him like that or anything - I never liked it when people grabbed dogs by the scruff and shook them - it looks too much like that "kill move" they do when they shake the prey, trying to snap it's neck/spine).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I have noticed (& im not just talking about DW himself but actually more traditional methods, I just reference him cuz he's pretty well known for example purposes) im not making a judgment on AMYONES choice of training method which is their own business, this is merely an observation:
> 
> Ppl who use positive methods based on science (which isn't always best either, science isn't always right: 40 yrs ago the existence of the giant squid was denied, foods that are known to be bad were ok 50 yrs ago, science is always changing... Just saying). I dont condone amy method but I am very good at "imitating" behaviors both human & dog.i can discipline like a dog & at times I do & it works, I find it amusing that ppl who use more modern techniques say his "blank" behavior is getting less but it never goes away, my dogs are perfect angels that never rest to stimuli. Im not going to negotiate or bribe or "load the bank" to get my dog to obey... Either do it or consequences will ensue... Period.
> 
> ...


Not sure what giant squids have to do with observable behavior? 

Honestly, Dragoness, some posts your dogs are perfect angels and do no wrong. In others you have problems with your boss being concerned about people's safety around your dog, and she' is aggressing chldren. In one post you tell us you use positive reinforcement and in another you say you use Koehler (but can't spell his name) So it's really difficult to know exactly what your methods are, or your dogs' behavior. Oh by the way, I don't have to carry treats, toys, clickers, negotiate or bribe, plead or hope that my dogs will behave either. 

The reason there are so many badly behaved dogs is that they are untrained. New methods only work better if you use them.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have seen ppl using new methods to no avail, I dont scruff my dogs tho. Sometimes I use positive methods when I see as appropriate, sometimes I dont. For your information, that kid was teasing my dog, if it was up to me ,she would have the right to defend herself, but since she looks to me for protection, anyways I have since left that job so I dont have to worry about it, there are no kids. She doesn't "aggress" on anyone without provocation, her personality is NOT one what will take any "sh**t" from anyone (not a cattle dog thing... Just an Izze thing lol) bur given the choice she will ignore or try to get away from whatever is bothering her. She even avoided a teacup chi who was "bossing" her around, ons chomp is all it would have taken, & she knows how strong she is, she just knows when to use it. 

But in public they both are watching me, they know I will have their back & care for them, I am the boss (not in a bad way) ots my job to defend & protect them so they CAN relax... Perhaps our relationship (which is u usually primal close) comes into play, perhaps that's what all those ppl who can't make their dogs behave are missing from their equation.

Sorry about the spelling, I have never been a good speller... Thanks to auto correct on IE :S. I know I sound a little contradictive at tomes, but my answers depend on the thread & replies above me.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I have noticed (& im not just talking about DW himself but actually more traditional methods, I just reference him cuz he's pretty well known for example purposes) im not making a judgment on AMYONES choice of training method which is their own business, this is merely an observation:
> 
> Ppl who use positive methods based on science (which isn't always best either, science isn't always right: 40 yrs ago the existence of the giant squid was denied, foods that are known to be bad were ok 50 yrs ago, science is always changing... Just saying). I dont condone amy method but I am very good at "imitating" behaviors both human & dog.i can discipline like a dog & at times I do & it works, I find it amusing that ppl who use more modern techniques say his "blank" behavior is getting less but it never goes away, my dogs are perfect angels that never rest to stimuli. Im not going to negotiate or bribe or "load the bank" to get my dog to obey... Either do it or consequences will ensue... Period.
> 
> ...


Scientific studies are only as valid as their lack of bias. I always read several for any subject I'm researching, and then apply my own judgement. It's only common sense that punishment-based training methods are going to yield the most immediate results, but also inject distrust and fear into the human-dog relationship. It's also shown through uncountable studies of behavior that variable reward-based training has the best long-term results. 

I adhere more to a hybrid approach. In many ways the positive vs. old school is a lot like Windows vs. Linux. I gravitate more to the positive side, I'll admit, and my 'punishments' aren't very strong, by most standards. If I call one of my dogs to me and they ignore me, I might smack their butt to get their attention, but it's more of a 'tap on the shoulder' approach than a spank. Generally they pay attention very well, so this only occurs if they're very distracted. I like to encourage behavior in my dogs rather than enforce it, so loading up on rewards for good behavior is just common sense to me. Mostly there's simply a loss of reward if the required behavior isn't offered. No treat and praise is plenty of motivation for my dogs to perform. In an extreme case, I'll smack a nose to get an immediate point across, but that's rare. I don't ever give 'corrections', like popping a leash as I've seen on the Leerburg videos. This seems to be their main training strategy. I have a bit of arthritis in my neck, so perhaps I'm biased, but I just can't condone regularly jerking my dogs around by the neck. Honestly, a firm word or two is all that's required to get my displeasure understood and taken seriously. I believe that dogs really want to make us happy, and if I can get good behavior by rewarding them, I don't see that as 'bribery' or anything. Honestly, in what relationship do we not expect to be rewarded? Also, I believe a system of rewarding is self-supporting. The good will you create tends to come back as willingness to please.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

wil.wish said:


> Scientific studies are only as valid as their lack of bias. I always read several for any subject I'm researching, and then apply my own judgement. It's only common sense that punishment-based training methods are going to yield the most immediate results, but also inject distrust and fear into the human-dog relationship. It's also shown through uncountable studies of behavior that variable reward-based training has the best long-term results.
> 
> I adhere more to a hybrid approach. In many ways the positive vs. old school is a lot like Windows vs. Linux. I gravitate more to the positive side, I'll admit, and my 'punishments' aren't very strong, by most standards. If I call one of my dogs to me and they ignore me, I might smack their butt to get their attention, but it's more of a 'tap on the shoulder' approach than a spank. Generally they pay attention very well, so this only occurs if they're very distracted. I like to encourage behavior in my dogs rather than enforce it, so loading up on rewards for good behavior is just common sense to me. Mostly there's simply a loss of reward if the required behavior isn't offered. No treat and praise is plenty of motivation for my dogs to perform. In an extreme case, I'll smack a nose to get an immediate point across, but that's rare. I don't ever give 'corrections', like popping a leash as I've seen on the Leerburg videos. This seems to be their main training strategy. I have a bit of arthritis in my neck, so perhaps I'm biased, but I just can't condone regularly jerking my dogs around by the neck. Honestly, a firm word or two is all that's required to get my displeasure understood and taken seriously. I believe that dogs really want to make us happy, and if I can get good behavior by rewarding them, I don't see that as 'bribery' or anything. Honestly, in what relationship do we not expect to be rewarded? Also, I believe a system of rewarding is self-supporting. The good will you create tends to come back as willingness to please.


Exactly! I also use praise &/or play time ( if you are good you get to go play, if not then you will not get to play til you listen. Like I say I have ranch dogs, a ranch is dangerous, & obedience is very important foe us. Look im not saying my dogs are perfect in every sense of the word, but I am proud.of them so that can make me be carried away when I talk about them, they have their quirks, but they are great dogs


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

pawzk9 said:


> In others you have problems with your boss being concerned about people's safety around your dog, and she' is aggressing chldren. In one post you tell us you use positive reinforcement and in another you say you use koehler (but can't spell his name) so it's really difficult to know exactly what your methods are, or your dogs' behavior. Oh by the way, i don't have to carry treats, toys, clickers, negotiate or bribe, plead or hope that my dogs will behave either.


thank you!!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I have seen ppl using new methods to no avail, I dont scruff my dogs tho. Sometimes I use positive methods when I see as appropriate, sometimes I dont. For your information, that kid was teasing my dog, if it was up to me ,she would have the right to defend herself, but since she looks to me for protection, anyways I have since left that job so I dont have to worry about it, there are no kids. She doesn't "aggress" on anyone without provocation, her personality is NOT one what will take any "sh**t" from anyone (not a cattle dog thing... Just an Izze thing lol) bur given the choice she will ignore or try to get away from whatever is bothering her. She even avoided a teacup chi who was "bossing" her around, ons chomp is all it would have taken, & she knows how strong she is, she just knows when to use it.
> 
> But in public they both are watching me, they know I will have their back & care for them, I am the boss (not in a bad way) ots my job to defend & protect them so they CAN relax... Perhaps our relationship (which is u usually primal close) comes into play, perhaps that's what all those ppl who can't make their dogs behave are missing from their equation.
> 
> Sorry about the spelling, I have never been a good speller... Thanks to auto correct on IE :S. I know I sound a little contradictive at tomes, but my answers depend on the thread & replies above me.


What (exactly) "new" methods have you seen people use to "no avail." Can you give us any specific examples so we can possibly know more than a generality? Yes you do frequently sound countradictory. But if you believe something and train consistently, it shouldn't change that frequently depending on what other people write.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Honestly, I was on the fence about positive methods for behavior mod until I started an intensive behavior mod program with Brody. I always thought it was fine for teaching things to "normal" dogs but thought it would be too tedious and time consuming to work on behavior issues without using some sort of punishment to get the behavior under control. Thus why I chose not to do anything about Brody's reactivity for a year because I figured I would rather keep him happy and "safe" at home instead of using punishment (which I personally am 100% against) to fix his issues. I had my second private session on Wednesday. I just got back from Petsmart with Brody and at checkout, there was a dog barking his head off in front of us. Three weeks ago I would have had to wait until that dog left the checkout area before bringing Brody there because he would have wanted to eat that dog. Today, he laid calmly at my feet staring at me the entire time and entirely ignored the other dog. It's amazing what some work on focus, trust, and a really reliable down-stay can do for a dog. We have 4 more sessions to go. I can't wait to see what else we can accomplish. These "new" methods have worked wonders for my dog.

Also, I accidentally left the food bag at home and debated on not bringing Brody in at all because I was afraid he wouldn't work without a primary reinforcer so soon. I was dead wrong.. He was working for nothing more than "good boys" and chin scratches. I asked myself a few times if it was really my dog on the other end of that leash.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

The main issue that I have with Cesar Millan, and other TV dog trainers, is that they convey, either voluntary or involuntary, that dog training can be accomplished in times of minutes. Training a dog is a life long endeavor, and joyful task, not something that is done in 45 or 90 minutes. SY


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> Honestly, I was on the fence about positive methods for behavior mod until I started an intensive behavior mod program with Brody. I always thought it was fine for teaching things to "normal" dogs but thought it would be too tedious and time consuming to work on behavior issues without using some sort of punishment to get the behavior under control. Thus why I chose not to do anything about Brody's reactivity for a year because I figured I would rather keep him happy and "safe" at home instead of using punishment (which I personally am 100% against) to fix his issues. I had my second private session on Wednesday. I just got back from Petsmart with Brody and at checkout, there was a dog barking his head off in front of us. Three weeks ago I would have had to wait until that dog left the checkout area before bringing Brody there because he would have wanted to eat that dog. Today, he laid calmly at my feet staring at me the entire time and entirely ignored the other dog. It's amazing what some work on focus, trust, and a really reliable down-stay can do for a dog. We have 4 more sessions to go. I can't wait to see what else we can accomplish. These "new" methods have worked wonders for my dog.
> 
> Also, I accidentally left the food bag at home and debated on not bringing Brody in at all because I was afraid he wouldn't work without a primary reinforcer so soon. I was dead wrong.. He was working for nothing more than "good boys" and chin scratches. I asked myself a few times if it was really my dog on the other end of that leash.


Good on ya! And Good Boy Brody! I get so tired of the naysayers who have never actually learned positive reinforcement based training and seem to think it is just pitching cookies at dogs who will tell you "it will work for tricks, but not for important stuff" (the tricks I teach are far more complicated than sit or down or come and must be executed with greater precision for the sport I use them in) or "it works for pet skills but not real obedience" (really? I've used it for competition obedience with success, so have others, granted, we aren't the majority yet) or "it works for pets but not real working dogs" (I know people who every day bet their lives on their R+ trained service dogs' skill) or "it works for normal dogs but not dogs with issues." (well, you just put the kibbosh on that one, didn't you?)

As you've discovered, one of the strengths is that very quickly it becomes NOT just about the cookies or the toys, but about having a clear way to communicate to the dog what you'd like instead, and helping him feel safe about it.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> Good on ya! And Good Boy Brody! I get so tired of the naysayers who have never actually learned positive reinforcement based training and seem to think it is just pitching cookies at dogs who will tell you "it will work for tricks, but not for important stuff" (the tricks I teach are far more complicated than sit or down or come and must be executed with greater precision for the sport I use them in) or "it works for pet skills but not real obedience" (really? I've used it for competition obedience with success, so have others, granted, we aren't the majority yet) or "it works for pets but not real working dogs" (I know people who every day bet their lives on their R+ trained service dogs' skill) or "it works for normal dogs but not dogs with issues." (well, you just put the kibbosh on that one, didn't you?)
> 
> As you've discovered, one of the strengths is that very quickly it becomes NOT just about the cookies or the toys, but about having a clear way to communicate to the dog what you'd like instead, and helping him feel safe about it.


It was way too hard to find a good trainer that was willing to take on a dog with behavior problems. We have a great facility nearby that uses methods I agree with but they only teach pet manners and competition/sport. They actually referred me to a "behaviorist" that is a Cesar imitator/worshiper. I drive a total of 4 hours for a 1 hour lesson but IMO it's absolutely worth it. 

I think the key was having a clear way to communicate with Brody. Because my timing sucks (or so I thought,) I didn't use a clicker when training him before and he was admittedly sloppily trained. I think I needed the instruction and confidence boost even more than he did! I'm just amazed at the simplicity behind it. 

I still have problems with letting Brody make mistakes and not taking it personally or being "embarassed" or apologetic about it. Part of learning is finding out what does and what doesn't work and while that makes sense to me when I write it, when my dog is growling at the neighbor's dog I can't help but feel like I should tell him to knock it off or yell at him like most "normal" dog owners do when their dog does something they don't approve of. I shouldn't have to justify how I train my dog (why are you giving him food for doing nothing?) to the public, but I still feel defensive when people question how I'm handling my dog.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> Im not going to negotiate or bribe or "load the bank" to get my dog to obey... Either do it or consequences will ensue... Period.


I'm not really trying to single you out, dd, it's just a convenient statement for me to quote to lead up to my question... that is, whywhywhy is this belief that positive = permissive SO ingrained out there? I don't get it. The people I see bribing or negotiating with their dogs are generally people who have untrained dogs, period, not positive trainers. *shrug*


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sassafras said:


> I'm not really trying to single you out, dd, it's just a convenient statement for me to quote to lead up to my question... that is, whywhywhy is this belief that positive = permissive SO ingrained out there? I don't get it. The people I see bribing or negotiating with their dogs are generally people who have untrained dogs, period, not positive trainers. *shrug*


It really has everything to do with how that person feels about behavior. Those who are looking for behavior don't think in terms of bribes, or negotiations. Those that do, have no clue what the target behavior is in the first place. So they label the process, this, that, or the other, to qualify it in their minds.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Sassafras>> no offense taken lol, I have a horrid time expressing myself thru writing & thank goD for auto correct/spell check or I would be totally humiliated right now lol.

Oh, by consequence I mean like a time out or loss of privilege... Not anything harsh or abusive. But I will raise my voice if I have to.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

First of all, it's ALL based on science. If you're a dominance lover, it was based on observing wolves. That's Ethology. Science.

You give punishment/correction as a consequence to behavior? That's operant conditioning. Science.

So...what's this method you use that has no basis in science?




dogdragoness said:


> I find it amusing that ppl who use more modern techniques say his "blank" behavior is getting less but it never goes away, my dogs are perfect angels that never rest to stimuli. Im not going to negotiate or bribe or "load the bank" to get my dog to obey... Either do it or consequences will ensue... Period.


Okay, you want that? I'll give it to you.

Wally is no longer fearful. 

How? Positive reinforcement, shaping, and classical conditioning (none of which is "modern", but somehow considered "modern") Classical conditioning is as old as Pavlov (who was a scientist...oh no...evil science!!! LOL), Positive reinforcement is as old as time (who gave the first treat to a dog for something they did? I bet it wasn't in "modern" times), and shaping - it probably existed long before someone named it "shaping".

But I didn't use any "traditional" techniques. No "corrections" (why would I get mad or physically "correct" an emotion, making him even more scared than he is? Illogical.) or anything of that sort. He needed MORE confidence, not something in his environment to terrify him. He already felt like a victim, why punish that? It makes no sense to me.

You also have a strange use of "consequence". Rewards are a consequence. A "consequence" is just the result of an action. You use it as if they occur only for disobedience, but rewarding - that's not a consequence? Say who what now?

As far as "loading the bank", I don't even know what that is. Bribing? I never bribe Wally. Rewards are consequences of behavior/feedback that he's going in the right direction (shaping)/or attempts to modify his emotional association to a stimulus (Pavlov). 

I hate luring - will do it only VERY sparingly...to almost never. But why should I lure when I can shape? Figure it out, Wally. You tell me how it's done. I wouldn't even know how to bribe a dog. Literally doesn't exist in my mindset, nor can I imagine how a dog understands the concept of bribery. I can understand the concept that the food is part of the cue. I.e. the dog interprets the chain as Food->verbal cue -> behavior -> reward. 

To me, that's improper use of R+, and, as such, a training mechanic that needs improving.




dogdragoness said:


> Now does this make me a bad, cruel person? No. my girls are happy, they aren't robotic, or afraid, they watch me eagerly like a cutting horse watches a cow but I dont have to carry: treats, toys, clickers, negotiate or bribe, plead or hope that my dogs will behave, thanks to the relationship we have developed, i fear no situation.


Neither do I. Wally reacts to any learned instruction I give him. Many times, I don't even need to give instructions. If he recognizes the situation, he'll act on his own. Something developed through our use of shaping. I didn't need to shock him, choke him, pop him, etc. I didn't need to "pull rank" on him, "be overbearing" or whatever else. Wally is no longer robotic or afraid. 

Yes, it is true. You can use +R oriented methods and no have to be glued to a clicker (or any other marker - I mean, clickers aren't the only possible markers in the world), a treat bag, or whatever. 



dogdragoness said:


> So i guess my question is: if these new methods work better, then why do i see so many " reactive" or otherwise badly behaved dogs? Yet i am often scorned for using more traditional Kolher (spelling???) type methods when for some ppl, hey work, esp if one can find a "good" traditional type trainer to work with.


For the same reason "traditional" methods can create fearful or "broken" dogs. For the same reason "modern" methods can create "spoiled" dogs.

It's called improper use of [insert method here]. As well as a factor of limited knowledge, individual awareness (and what they are aware of), and the make-up of the person.

I can learn Köhler inside and out, but if I don't have the desire/conviction to carry out the methods, it will be inconsistent. Meanwhile, if I prefer shaping and CC, then I'll carry those out far better, increasing my chances of success. 

Someone could tell me how to remove fear via corrections. It could work great for them. It's not me. I'd want to reach a fearful dog another way. Does that mean if I try it the "corrections way" and it "doesn't work" that it's wrong? No, it means I'm inept and/or it didn't resonate with this particular dog (dogs are individuals after all). If I do it with CC, Look-At-That, etc, and it works, does it mean it's better? No, it means I'm good with it and using it to reach the dog.

So saying "they have a bad dog, therefore "modern" methods are not as effective as "traditional" ones is flawed logic. As is the reverse.

These "method wars" are senseless. Neither side is ever going to "win". Just use what works for you and allows you to reach your dog in a humane way and go about the business of training your dog(s).


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> First of all, it's ALL based on science. If you're a dominance lover, it was based on observing wolves. That's Ethology. Science.
> 
> You give punishment/correction as a consequence to behavior? That's operant conditioning. Science.
> 
> So...what's this method you use that has no basis in science?


Good question. Science describes what we observe. If it works, science has probably described it. If it works really well, it's probably intelligently BASED on science. On the ethology thing - current ethologists are now questioning some of the previous assumptions about wolf packs. That includes David Mech who is probably foremost in the field. Much of the previous theory was based on observing captive artificial "packs" and much of it was filtered through the "machismo" of the observers. Science is constantly evolving, and new discoveries and theories are based on what came before. Science is only a human attempt to describe and explain, and so no more perfect than the person doing the observation/testing/description. But in general, using science is more useful than ignoring or dismissing it.

Speaking of wolf packs, ethology, etc. I would like to make mention of the passing of a great man, a great friend of wolves and other canids. Dr. Erich Klinghammer, the founder of Wolf Park passed a couple of days ago, at the age of 81. I'll never forget Dr. Klinghammer and his pocket wolf - a tiny Chihuahua that he would carry to greetings with seminar visitors, and howl with! http://blog.wolfpark.org/?p=522


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## luv2laugh (Oct 4, 2011)

I never knew about all the controversy about "The Dog Whisperer" until going on these doggy threads.

I checked out his book "A Member of the Family" from the library and I think he has some great advice for picking out dogs (matching their energy level to yours) and introducing a puppy or adult dog to the home. We will be following how to introduce the puppy to the home almost to a tee. 

Even just making sure to carry the puppy so that he/she can see and putting him down on two legs so he can adjust and then put down his other two legs. This is simple stuff, but stuff that's new to me, makes sense and won't hurt one bit. 

I read Ian Dunbar's books and am looking at other stuff too. I'm going to take bits and pieces for each. I haven't read anything that raised red flags yet, but only on Ch.4 so far.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

luv2laugh said:


> Even just making sure to carry the puppy so that he/she can see and putting him down on two legs so he can adjust and then put down his other two legs. This is simple stuff, but stuff that's new to me, makes sense and won't hurt one bit.


I'm definitely not trying to be mean or snarky as I'm honestly curious about this and can't think of any other way to word it. How in the world does this make sense? I can't think of any reason to handle a pup in this way (not saying it's a bad way of handling a pup, I just can't think of why it would be beneficial) and I have never heard of anyone doing it.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Lindbert said:


> I'm definitely not trying to be mean or snarky as I'm honestly curious about this and can't think of any other way to word it. How in the world does this make sense? I can't think of any reason to handle a pup in this way (not saying it's a bad way of handling a pup, I just can't think of why it would be beneficial) and I have never heard of anyone doing it.


Good question.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well me neither but if it stops pups from being dropped the last 4 inches to as high as a couple feet. It's well worth it. It may cause parents to talk to kids about pup handling.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 4, 2011)

Sorry, maybe I didn't explain very well, haha.

I'll just type out what he said, it'll make more sense.

A Member of the Family, "Puppy's First Day Home" p.71-72

"Your role with the puppy is to take over the role of pack leader from the mother, while still allowing the puppy to explore and process things on his own. This means you want to pick up the puppy by the scruff, the way the mother does, and when you put him down, always let two of his feet touch first, so he can experience finding the place you are putting him with his own body. These can be the back two feet, if you are holding the puppy upright, or the front two feet if you are putting the puppy onto a foreign object like a car. Put two feet down with a puppy and eventually the other two will follow. Most people carry puppies around like babies, so they never get a sense of how they get where they're going.....

By introducing the puppy to new places the way the mother would, the puppy instinctually understands, 'Okay, this makes me feel the way I used to feel at home. Now it's very important for me to follow this human who is familiar to me from the moment he picked me up.' You become the puppy's last link to his mom, or his first pack."

etc. etc. etc. 


**On another note, we'll support his body too, not just pick him up completely from the scruff of his neck.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

luv2laugh said:


> Sorry, maybe I didn't explain very well, haha.
> 
> I'll just type out what he said, it'll make more sense.
> 
> ...


Oh good lord! No! No! NO! You do not EVER suspend a puppy by the scruff. If you ever watch a mother dog carry a puppy, she gently has the whole neck/shoulder area in her mouth. She is not dangling the puppy up by the skin. And she only does it with very young puppies to move them. If you pick an older, heavier pup up by the scruff you could actually cause damage to them, separating tissue. I never heard such bad or stupid advice. (well, maybe once or twice, but it is irresponsible of that idiot to put that in a book)


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

I havent seen a mother dog lift a pup by the neck past the age of 4 weeks. That being said, the last time my mom picked me up was when I was about 5 or so. Just because something is appropriate for a very young animal doesn't mean it's appropriate throughout the animal's life. I do agree with putting down the puppy with hind feet first and occasionally front feet first (that's how I got Hunter to be less afraid of steps!) as long as it's done really carefully. Carrying a dog or puppy by the scruff is always a bad idea. 

When teaching me to hold Brody's scruff, the FIRST thing Pam told me was that it was for emergencies only as a way of keeping him still until someone could bring me a collar or leash should he get away naked and wind up in a dangerous situation. The second thing she said was if he tried to pull against me or run away, let go IMMEDIATELY because contrary to popular belief, it is just as painful for the dog to have tension on his scruff as it is the skin anywhere on his body. It just so happens he has more skin there so it's easier to grab.


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## luv2laugh (Oct 4, 2011)

ok, let's scrap the scruff of the neck part then!


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

An example of scruff holding using my Ollie Cat. No dogs were available for this demo (at groomer) so Ollie had to fill in. Obviously, he didnt mind


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

luv2laugh said:


> ok, let's scrap the scruff of the neck part then!


That I can get on board with . It's great that you are starting research now. Shows you're going to be a great owner!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have never "scruffed" as a punishment, I have when I needed to get ahold of my dog in an emergency (pulling bear away from a snake, restraining til I could get a collar on etc... That's in a book? Doesn't sound like good advice to me :S


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> pulling bear away from a snake


I originally read that as pulling a bear away from a snake. I was about to commend you for having the guts to scruff a bear!


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

"...This means you want to pick up the puppy by the scruff, the way the mother does,..."

Oh dear, the mother only does this in an emergency to transfer puppies from one place to a safer one. And only with very young (days to few weeks) puppies kicks the 'puppy carried by scruff freeze effect' in. Never, ever carry, hold your puppy by the scruff if you have another way to restrain it as it means severe punishment for a puppy being hold that way. Older dogs / pack members will actually pin a rowdy pup like this to the ground to give it a major tell off. By all means, if you have to safe puppy from immediate danger (snake / bear ;-)) don't care what and how you do it as long as you save it, for anything else NO! The problem I have with this self declared dog expert called Cesar Millan is that he mixes sound advice with outrageously wrong one like this making it difficult for non-knowledgeable people to distinguish between the two! SY


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Lindbert said:


> I originally read that as pulling a bear away from a snake. I was about to commend you for having the guts to scruff a bear!


Hey they are tough in Texas. Any way I don't necessarily buy the put back feet down etc and since I was picking pups up and putting them down before any of the books were written and the good news is that all was good. I do agree with the scruff hurting and only used in emergency program, that's a no-brainer.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> An example of scruff holding using my Ollie Cat. No dogs were available for this demo (at groomer) so Ollie had to fill in. Obviously, he didnt mind


Yes, but cats have a much different body mass than the average-sized dog, and also I believe their back of neck area allows for safe pick ups. Correct me if I'm wrong there, as I'm not 100% sure.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

wil.wish said:


> Yes, but cats have a much different body mass than the average-sized dog, and also I believe their back of neck area allows for safe pick ups. Correct me if I'm wrong there, as I'm not 100% sure.


Yeah, I would never pick up my dog with the scruff of their neck, only to restrain them like I showed in the video should they get away from me naked (which as you can tell wasn't much of a restraint.) When the idiots get home I'll make one with a pup.


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## wil.wish (Sep 6, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Oh, by consequence I mean like a time out or loss of privilege... Not anything harsh or abusive. But I will raise my voice if I have to.
> 
> Im not going to negotiate or bribe or "load the bank" to get my dog to obey... Either do it or consequences will ensue... Period.


I think most people will do the same with the time-outs, but I don't really understand the idea that giving treats for obedience is 'bribing', and I don't see any failure to perform as requiring a 'consequence', which in your context I assume means punishment. Dogs and people are very different, but some things remain the same, such as pursuit of rewards. When my kids were growing up, I would of course punish bad behavior, but I preferred to reward good behavior. When they took care of chores, got decent grades, and didn't need me nagging them, they had fewer restrictions and I'd take them out to do more things. I didn't supply treats, because human kids expect toys, which are a lot more expensive than dog treats. But the point is that action/reward-based behavior modification, when used with a variable reward system (sometimes no treats, sometimes regular treats, sometimes, mega-treats) has been shown to create the most lasting changes. I can't recall the specifics, but it was a published series of scientific experiments. I've got the info at home, and will post it later. 

I was having fits trying to get my dogs to stop jumping up on me when I came home. I did all the wrong things: yelling, pushing them down, and sometimes actually petting them when I was in a good mood. I learned better ways, and two weeks of ignoring them entirely when they jumped and giving praise and treats when they were calm, and the problem was solved. Not only does the system work, but I'd far rather have my dogs follow instruction because I've made it a happy experience for them to do so, as opposed because they're afraid of what will happen if they don't. 

I never bribe my dogs - they work for their treats.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> Yeah, I would never pick up my dog with the scruff of their neck, only to restrain them like I showed in the video should they get away from me naked (which as you can tell wasn't much of a restraint.) When the idiots get home I'll make one with a pup.


Restraining by holding the scruff is a whole lot different than actually carrying the puppy by the scruff - which may be one of the single worst pieces of advice I've seen. I can hardly believe that even CM would say something so stupid.


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## tom allyn (Oct 4, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> Honestly, I was on the fence about positive methods for behavior mod until I started an intensive behavior mod program with Brody. I always thought it was fine for teaching things to "normal" dogs but thought it would be too tedious and time consuming to work on behavior issues without using some sort of punishment to get the behavior under control. Thus why I chose not to do anything about Brody's reactivity for a year because I figured I would rather keep him happy and "safe" at home instead of using punishment (which I personally am 100% against) to fix his issues. I had my second private session on Wednesday. I just got back from Petsmart with Brody and at checkout, there was a dog barking his head off in front of us. Three weeks ago I would have had to wait until that dog left the checkout area before bringing Brody there because he would have wanted to eat that dog. Today, he laid calmly at my feet staring at me the entire time and entirely ignored the other dog. It's amazing what some work on focus, trust, and a really reliable down-stay can do for a dog. We have 4 more sessions to go. I can't wait to see what else we can accomplish. These "new" methods have worked wonders for my dog.
> 
> Also, I accidentally left the food bag at home and debated on not bringing Brody in at all because I was afraid he wouldn't work without a primary reinforcer so soon. I was dead wrong.. He was working for nothing more than "good boys" and chin scratches. I asked myself a few times if it was really my dog on the other end of that leash.


Wow this post makes really want to give "Possitive Reinforcement" a fair chance. To work with Roxanne. I know my last post on the topic I came off like a butt head/Red Neck with my thoughts toward this little girl. The truth is as I said before she somehow unlike any other dog I've ever owned has me wrapped around her little finger. So I hope you all don't mind me asking, but is anyone familliar with a really good "Possitive Reinforcement" instructor and/or classes in the Elk Grove/Sacramento CA. area that would be especially good for a very fearful dog.

I would like to share that last night I began using the NILIF methods with Roxanne when I arrived home and she was acting like she couldn't believe I came home from work (poor little girl). I just went about my business as if she wasn't barking and squealing and jumping on me. However, I think I made a mistake, because once she stopped I kept getting dinner ready, then other nightly chores, before I finally gave her attention and by then she really seemed depressed and reluctant to be with me. I'm kind of thinking at least for last night I really messed up.

One more thing the thundershirt though I really don't have the money to spend, since I have some important home repair projects I need to do I'm thinking about shelling out the $'s to see if it will help her.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tom allyn said:


> So I hope you all don't mind me asking, but is anyone familliar with a really good "Possitive Reinforcement" instructor and/or classes in the Elk Grove/Sacramento CA. area that would be especially good for a very fearful dog.


I don't have any first hands experience with http://www.4pawsu.com/, but I've heard good things. It may be a start.

Also try...http://www.ccpdt.org/index.php?option=com_certificants&task=results&zip=95624&dist=25


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

luv2laugh said:


> Sorry, maybe I didn't explain very well, haha.
> 
> I'll just type out what he said, it'll make more sense.
> 
> ...


I think the stupid thing is not nessesarilly picking him up by the scruff (although that is pretty dumb) but that the book is wanting you to treat your dog the way another dog would or the way a mother dog would.

Heads up world (and book) I'M NOT A DOG! And neither are any of you. Dogs know this, they know we are not dogs and we don't speak their language well. They don't need us to act like dogs for them to learn and be happy. A great example of this is training. Mothers and other dogs aren't going to toss treats and click or praise when a dog does something good, they aren't going to do anything. Yet _most_ dogs who learn through this method thrive. (One of my pet peeves if you cant tell...)


This isn't meant towards the poster I cited, but the book that the poster cited. To said poster, if I were you I would throw the book away and get something out of the recommended readings sticky instead. Any book that tells you to scruff your new puppy and be a mothers dog isn't worth its weight in kibble.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Lol he thinks he's a actual bear, if that counts . He thinks he's Ricky Ticky Tavi or something when it comes to snakes & he had already been bitten 4 times & almost died the last time. We weren't anywhere near the snake, I just saw it at the same time & since in the country they dont wear collars, I grabbed the first available thing to save his life, which was his scruff.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

tom allyn said:


> Wow this post makes really want to give "Possitive Reinforcement" a fair chance. To work with Roxanne. I know my last post on the topic I came off like a butt head/Red Neck with my thoughts toward this little girl. The truth is as I said before she somehow unlike any other dog I've ever owned has me wrapped around her little finger. So I hope you all don't mind me asking, but is anyone familliar with a really good "Possitive Reinforcement" instructor and/or classes in the Elk Grove/Sacramento CA. area that would be especially good for a very fearful dog.
> 
> I would like to share that last night I began using the NILIF methods with Roxanne when I arrived home and she was acting like she couldn't believe I came home from work (poor little girl). I just went about my business as if she wasn't barking and squealing and jumping on me. However, I think I made a mistake, because once she stopped I kept getting dinner ready, then other nightly chores, before I finally gave her attention and by then she really seemed depressed and reluctant to be with me. I'm kind of thinking at least for last night I really messed up.
> 
> One more thing the thundershirt though I really don't have the money to spend, since I have some important home repair projects I need to do I'm thinking about shelling out the $'s to see if it will help her.


What size is she? I have a L thundershirt lying around that doesn't get any use since my nervous and thundershy dog passed away. If it will fit her, I'd be happy to send it on over. It was a miracle in her last year of life. 

A great trainer makes all the difference in the world. Since that post, I took Brody for a walk in the park for the first time in MONTHS and he was able to walk by other excited dogs without growling at them! We also went to get a tracking harness fitted for him and the male shop owner was able to handle him and try different harnesses on him without any signs of stress. 

One thing to remember is that timing is important in all training. You should have given her attention and/or food and toys IMMEDIATELY when she calmed down so she realized what she did to "push the button" and get what she wanted. She was probably confused and worried that she would do something to cause you to ignore her again later that night, which was why she may have seemed a little stand-offish. The good news is that dogs are incredibly resilient and you will have plenty of chances to make it up to her. You didn't do anything that will take long to correct.


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## tom allyn (Oct 4, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> What size is she? I have a L thundershirt lying around that doesn't get any use since my nervous and thundershy dog passed away. If it will fit her, I'd be happy to send it on over. It was a miracle in her last year of life.
> 
> A great trainer makes all the difference in the world. Since that post, I took Brody for a walk in the park for the first time in MONTHS and he was able to walk by other excited dogs without growling at them! We also went to get a tracking harness fitted for him and the male shop owner was able to handle him and try different harnesses on him without any signs of stress.
> 
> One thing to remember is that timing is important in all training. You should have given her attention and/or food and toys IMMEDIATELY when she calmed down so she realized what she did to "push the button" and get what she wanted. She was probably confused and worried that she would do something to cause you to ignore her again later that night, which was why she may have seemed a little stand-offish. The good news is that dogs are incredibly resilient and you will have plenty of chances to make it up to her. You didn't do anything that will take long to correct.


That is a very generous offer, but unfortunately shes about the size of a Corgi weighs about 30lbs. Roxanne is American Eskimo/Yorkie.

Thank you for the explanation and the encouraging words.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

tom allyn said:


> Wow this post makes really want to give "Possitive Reinforcement" a fair chance. To work with Roxanne. I know my last post on the topic I came off like a butt head/Red Neck with my thoughts toward this little girl. The truth is as I said before she somehow unlike any other dog I've ever owned has me wrapped around her little finger. So I hope you all don't mind me asking, but is anyone familliar with a really good "Possitive Reinforcement" instructor and/or classes in the Elk Grove/Sacramento CA. area that would be especially good for a very fearful dog.
> 
> I would like to share that last night I began using the NILIF methods with Roxanne when I arrived home and she was acting like she couldn't believe I came home from work (poor little girl). I just went about my business as if she wasn't barking and squealing and jumping on me. However, I think I made a mistake, because once she stopped I kept getting dinner ready, then other nightly chores, before I finally gave her attention and by then she really seemed depressed and reluctant to be with me. I'm kind of thinking at least for last night I really messed up.
> 
> One more thing the thundershirt though I really don't have the money to spend, since I have some important home repair projects I need to do I'm thinking about shelling out the $'s to see if it will help her.


NILIF isn't a bad program. But you have to be mindful about how you use it, and be sure you give the dog a chance to be successful. It's not about just ignoring, It's about rewarding wanted behavior and making sure unwanted behavior doesn't pay. If you don't have the money for a thundershirt, go the "pre-thundershirt route" and learn to do a body wrap with a nice cheap ace bandage. http://www.crvetcenter.com/ttouch.php Some of us were using those for years before the Thundershirt happened. And it's what the TS is based on. The drawbacks are that it's easier for the dog to remove and people will wonder why your dog is all bandaged up. Thundershirts are easier and look better.


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

I think dogs should be awarded a restraining order against this man and anyone who tries to emulate him. 

He has no qualifications to be calling himself a dog behavior specialist or a dog "rehabilitator". He has no real training or education and hasn't even bothered to work under the supervision of a qualified, experienced trainer. He interacted with dogs on his grandfather's farm in Mexico as a child, he came over to the US, groomed dogs for a while, then he started on his quest to dominate dogs. http://www.cesarsway.com/askcesar/aboutcesar This is his dog experience. Any kennel worker or even your local mail carrier are as qualified to be working with dogs as he is. He also stole Ian Dunbar's title, The Dog Whisperer, and he also bases his dog behavior ideas on a faulty wolf study. First, dogs aren't wolves. Secondly, even Dr. Mech, the person who conducted the wolf study, stated that the study was erroneous and not a basis for wolf behavior, let alone dog behavior. Also, researchers have long been studying feral dogs, they don't form packs. There is no basis for all his "pack behavior". http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals

In addition, he states that we shouldn't be treating dogs like humans but he says that we should be acting like dogs when we "rehabilitate" our dogs. Where is the consistency? Also, dogs aren't as stupid as he thinks, dogs don't think that we're fellow dogs. What dog would possibly perceive his clawed hand as a mouth?? 

He jabs at dogs' throats with his clawed hand, he strikes their under belly and groin with his foot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI&feature=related AND http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V99HA6_LG40, which is by definition a kick. He jerks leashes, he strangles dogs on leads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq62POnD7sA&feature=related, he picks smaller dogs up and swings them around by their scruffs http://www.megavideo.com/?d=0XANGECD, he puts other animals in danger when he's "rehabilitating" dogs to leave them alone, he intentionally sets dogs off and he also uses a bait dog, this poor dog is used as a target for dog aggressive dogs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPRAQXOAMz0&list=WLC1FF943A9B0ABF39&index=2&feature=plpp_video. The list goes on and on. 

Most of the time, he misreads the dog's body language and signals that they're giving him http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7HFs4h62UM&feature=related. He labels most of the aggressive dogs as dominant aggressive when they're giving clearly fearful, insecure signals and dominant dogs are not fearful, insecure dogs. Otherwise they wouldn't be dominant.

The experts at the top of the dog behavior and dog psychology fields don't condone him or his methods. http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/

You can Google the rest and find more videos on Youtube.

This man is a bully with a Napolean complex and he takes it out on dogs. He doesn't know what he's doing. Ask any veterinary behavorist how many dogs they've had to fix after some one attempted to Cesar Millan their dog.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Bad news.. there is someone who has been taught Cesar's Way and now is teaching other trainers how to become a "behaviorist" using Cesar's methods. They're not using the newer, more evolved Cesar either, they're using the alpha rolling, tssting, and rib poking bully methods of season 1 and 2 Dog Whisperer. 

http://www.zen4k9s.com/

If you are looking for a trainer/behaviorist and you come across someone who was trained by this person... RUN, don't walk.


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

Ugh. I wonder what he would say if asked his qualifications?


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

IACP certified, trained by Mr. Cesar Millan himself.. what more could you want from a trainer?!


The trainer who "tried to rehabilitate" (aka signed his euth note) Brody at the shelter was one of his proteges. She worked him on an e-collar and to this day he will roll over and pee on himself if he hears a high pitched beep similar to the "warning tone."


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## msminnamouse (Jul 14, 2008)

Yes, Mr. Millan is responsible for a lot of dogs getting the needle. People think that a dog is crazy and/or can't be reached if the great Cesar Millan's methods fail so there's no option left but to put them down.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

msminnamouse said:


> Yes, Mr. Millan is responsible for a lot of dogs getting the needle. People think that a dog is crazy and/or can't be reached if the great Cesar Millan's methods fail so there's no option left but to put them down.


I nearly fell for that bull and resigned Brody to a life of living safely confined in my house because his aggression was a danger to others. Then I found Pam Dennison and I now have a dog that actually "cured" a 20 year old young man of his fear of dogs. I've gone through hell and back working on a "red zone" dog using nothing but positive reinforcement training, desensitization, and counter conditioning. No flooding or dominance required. I'd say we're about 70% of the way to where I want to be right now with Brody, but he is now better than the vast majority of the dogs we meet on a walk!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

msminnamouse said:


> I think dogs should be awarded a restraining order against this man and anyone who tries to emulate him.
> 
> He has no qualifications to be calling himself a dog behavior specialist or a dog "rehabilitator". He has no real training or education and hasn't even bothered to work under the supervision of a qualified, experienced trainer. He interacted with dogs on his grandfather's farm in Mexico as a child, he came over to the US, groomed dogs for a while, then he started on his quest to dominate dogs. http://www.cesarsway.com/askcesar/aboutcesar This is his dog experience. Any kennel worker or even your local mail carrier are as qualified to be working with dogs as he is. He also stole Ian Dunbar's title, The Dog Whisperer, .


Actually Paul Owens was the original Dog Whisperer whose title Millan stole. Agree with the rest.


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