# My dogs keep waking up my son...



## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

I have been a member here for a few months now and haven't had much to offer or ask for here... But now I need some help and direction

So I have a 9 month old son and my dogs (lab and multipoo) bark at every noise... It wasn't a big deal until now! Ive tried telling them no, light spanking, treats for them when they stop and now have just purchased bark collars. I hate the bark collars because I don't want to hurt them but I'm desperate...

Please any help on the subject would be a big help... I'm desperate 

Thanks


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> I have been a member here for a few months now and haven't had much to offer or ask for here... But now I need some help and direction
> 
> So I have a 9 month old son and my dogs (lab and multipoo) bark at every noise... It wasn't a big deal until now! Ive tried telling them no, light spanking, treats for them when they stop and now have just purchased bark collars. I hate the bark collars because I don't want to hurt them but I'm desperate...
> 
> ...


Return the bark collars.... Hopefully you haven't had chance to use them yet. They can have some very serious behavioral fall outs. My auntie put a shock collar on her dog and when he barked the first time he got so scared he poo'd himself and ran round the house yelping which kept setting off the collar and thus scaring him further. Didn't fix the problem, just made the dog have a bad day. They can actually make the problems worse because when a noise happens they get a random spray so they get scared of the noise and if that noise is a common house hold noise you're going to have a dog in constant fear. This is called a behavioral fallout.
You need to desensitize your dog to noises, you can get CDs with calm music and then random inside/outdoor noises thrown in. They're great because you control when the sounds happen meaning you're ready to positively reinforce the dog when they happen. You can also try and teach a speak and quiet command.
If you can stop them before the barking starts that would help as barking is self reinforcing and once they start it's hard to regain control. Look for any tense or obvious behavior they do just before and get in there with a positive behavior before that happens!


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks for your reply Gingerwrinkle.... The worst is when the doorbell rings or a knock at the door, so its hard to foresee this coming. I will look into some of your tips!

We have actually tried the bark collars and hated it instantly, they both wouldn't stop shaking after the first bark. We don't have them on them anymore after we gave it a try for a few weeks. My partner Gavin tried to return them but we have had them to long... I just didn't know if we should stick it out as the bark collar websites have said the results are great. I have my doubts just like you

Thanks again


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> Thanks for your reply Gingerwrinkle.... The worst is when the doorbell rings or a knock at the door, so its hard to foresee this coming. I will look into some of your tips!
> 
> We have actually tried the bark collars and hated it instantly, they both wouldn't stop shaking after the first bark. We don't have them on them anymore after we gave it a try for a few weeks. My partner Gavin tried to return them but we have had them to long... I just didn't know if we should stick it out as the bark collar websites have said the results are great. I have my doubts just like you
> 
> Thanks again


Then make knocking on the door/doorbell predictable by having a friend/partner/relative do it for you 
Are they running to the door and then barking or barking as soon as the noise happens? It's important to distinguish because if they're running to the door first and then barking it's likely they're being protective of the house and know knocking/doorbell means someone is there. You can fix this by restricting them to somewhere they can see the door being opened but cannot get there. If the dog doesn't react give them praise/a treat. If they react move them further away and try again. If that doesn't work you may need to teach the quiet command. 

If they're barking at the noise then desensitizing is the best way, I'm sure there's a CD that will include those noises in them, have a shop around


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

Have you tried keeping them on leads and correcting them when they go to bark? I know it doesn't sound like the easiest thing in the world. Especially with a baby in the house. But it is a way better option than bark collars. I have seen so many dogs end up worse off because of bark collars. I know they work for some dogs but I personally don't like them. I would keep one or both dogs on a leash or long lead. And when a sound goes off and you see the dogs are getting ready to bark give the leash/lead a small tug to break attention and correct. Then treat when they turn their attention to you and are quiet and calm. I have had the most success with this routine.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

I saw a post on facebook a while ago. It showed two golden retrievers with pillows in their mouths and it said when anybody comes over to their house, they grab pillows and bring them to guests. They were trained that way because they can't bark and have a pillow in the mouth...might be an idea.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

BigLittle said:


> I saw a post on facebook a while ago. It showed two golden retrievers with pillows in their mouths and it said when anybody comes over to their house, they grab pillows and bring them to guests. They were trained that way because they can't bark and have a pillow in the mouth...might be an idea.


That generally works very well for retrieving breeds because they love to hold or present things with their mouths, might work actually but depends on the dog. Redirecting to another behavior is a good idea though.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

since no one addressed it... you should never ever spank a dog! it teaches them nothing except to fear you...


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Kayota... Gavin didn't use his hand but a rolled up news paper. As I mentioned before it was light swatting.

Thanks everybody for your input!


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

TheDarkestMinds said:


> Have you tried keeping them on leads and correcting them when they go to bark? I know it doesn't sound like the easiest thing in the world. Especially with a baby in the house. But it is a way better option than bark collars. I have seen so many dogs end up worse off because of bark collars. I know they work for some dogs but I personally don't like them. I would keep one or both dogs on a leash or long lead. And when a sound goes off and you see the dogs are getting ready to bark give the leash/lead a small tug to break attention and correct. Then treat when they turn their attention to you and are quiet and calm. I have had the most success with this routine.


Do you leave the leash on all the time?

They are nice dogs and don't want them to have to wear them all the time if at all possible...? But this seems like it may work pretty well!


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

dark_bark said:


> Kayota... Gavin didn't use his hand but a rolled up news paper. As I mentioned before it was light swatting.
> 
> Thanks everybody for your input!


A hit is a hit. Newspaper, your hand, a stick. It really doesn't matter. A spanking, light swatting.... Don't do it. 
Nor should you be using a bark collar or "leash correcting" them. 

All of these methods A) won't work; B) teach your dog to fear you/a situation; C) treat the symptoms but not the actual issue. 

If you want to fix this you need to first understand WHY they do it, and work to resolve that rather than just trying to shut them up. 

Are they scared? Work to desensitize them. 
Are they protective? Teach them that you can handle it and train a counterproductive behaviour 
Are they bored? Increased exercise and mental stimulation should be your first step either way. Tired dogs are more likely to be calm quiet dogs. 

When your baby cries do you lightly spank him? Or mildly electrocute him? Or jerk at his neck?
Or do you try your best to figure out WHY he's crying and give him what he needs?

Stop PUNISHING and start TEACHING


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

I don't know why you're so angry at me Nichole... That's why I'm here to seek help!

To answer why they do it, excitement IMO... Maybe a little jealousy and are acting out as it has gotten worse sense the adoption but not too noticeable!

How do you tame excited dogs without the methods you obviously can't stand


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> A hit is a hit. Newspaper, your hand, a stick. It really doesn't matter. A spanking, light swatting.... Don't do it.
> Nor should you be using a bark collar or "leash correcting" them.
> 
> All of these methods A) won't work; B) teach your dog to fear you/a situation; C) treat the symptoms but not the actual issue.
> ...


Don't see much point in this post, the OP came here for options, and help. 

Here's a good video that may help. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp_l9C1yT1g


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## MollyM (May 19, 2015)

Nobody "needs" to be hit. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem is going to look like a nail. 

I don't think Nicole's post was angry. She's just telling it like it is. And hitting is hitting, no matter if you want to call it swatting, slapping, popping, smacking, or spanking. Those are cutesy little terms that people use to justify hitting creatures who are generally smaller than you and dependent upon you for their care. 

Whether you swat a dog with a newspaper or with your hand, it's hitting. And if it wasn't meant to scare the dog out of a certain behavior, then why are you doing it? Is there some other purpose I'm missing?

It's going to take time and patience to retrain your dogs to NOT bark. I don't know how old they are, but they've presumably been allowed to behave that way for some time. In the meantime, maybe putting a fan or some sort of white noise machine in your son's room could help drown out the sound of the dogs while you work on their behavior. Good luck!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Fumiko said:


> Boyfriend get angry for Duncan and smack him on nose I tell him not hit my dog but he very big and good at other thing so we not fight for long but I don't like when some one smack Duncan for no reason. But sometime even kid need spanked and you see kid all over place who act in public because mom not believe in spank.


kids may act out for many reasons but not being spanked isn't one of them... spanking is abusive and there are many studies proving the long lasting effects it has. please do some research before your son is old enough to act out.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

MollyM said:


> Nobody "needs" to be hit. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem is going to look like a nail.
> 
> I don't think Nicole's post was angry. She's just telling it like it is. And hitting is hitting, no matter if you want to call it swatting, slapping, popping, smacking, or spanking. Those are cutesy little terms that people use to justify hitting creatures who are generally smaller than you and dependent upon you for their care.
> 
> ...


We don't want to lightly swat our dogs... But Gavin was desperate! He hasn't done it since.

The white noise idea is a good one! It may help drown out the barking as well as help Jaxxon sleep. 

Has anybody moved indoor dogs to outdoor? It seems like it would be tough especially where oliver and cooper are 7 and 10 years old. But we could make them a really nice place in our shed if these other things don't pan out. This would be a last resort


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

No, don't make them outside dogs. That would be worse than the zap collar :/. Dogs need human interaction and they would probably be miserable since they weren't raised outside. 

Did you watch the video? There are a lot of positive ways to train dogs not to bark.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Willowy said:


> No, don't make them outside dogs. That would be worse than the zap collar :/. Dogs need human interaction and they would probably be miserable since they weren't raised outside.
> 
> Did you watch the video? There are a lot of positive ways to train dogs not to bark.


I just saw the video this morning and haven't watched it yet.... But I will!

Thanks


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> I don't know why you're so angry at me Nichole... That's why I'm here to seek help!
> 
> To answer why they do it, excitement IMO... Maybe a little jealousy and are acting out as it has gotten worse sense the adoption but not too noticeable!
> 
> How do you tame excited dogs without the methods you obviously can't stand


I have to disagree with Nichole. I have a PON and she responded quite positively to little 'nips' on her back legs when she was way out of line. Especially when she was being aggressive with other dogs or trying to herd people/children. 

Maybe that is just something specific to herding breeds?


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Fumiko said:


> Kayota said:
> 
> 
> > kids may act out for many reasons but not being spanked isn't one of them... spanking is abusive and there are many studies proving the long lasting effects it has. please do some research before your son is old enough to act out.
> ...


I agree that hands on discipline is needed in some cases... But it must be done in a way that lets the child or dog know that it's done because we love you and as a last resort! With Jaxxon being only nine months old and we have only had him for 6 since we adopted him no discipline has been needed yet.

When I moved in with Gavin a year ago he wasn't very exited about my dogs moving in also be we have made it work! That's why I'm really hoping to resolve this issue soon.

Thanks for your input


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There is no way to hit someone in a way that says "love". Just no way. My mother claimed she hit me because she loved me and that's a load of horse puckey---it's just something people tell themselves to help them feel better about hurting and violating someone smaller and more helpless than they are. All scientific research indicates that striking children (and dogs) is harmful. No matter what kind of cutesy name you want to call it.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Willowy said:


> There is no way to hit someone in a way that says "love". Just no way. My mother claimed she hit me because she loved me and that's a load of horse puckey---it's just something people tell themselves to help them feel better about hurting someone smaller and more helpless than they are. All scientific research indicates that striking children is harmful.


This.

I'm going to go with science on this one.

I got some of "I love you so much, but you're _making_ me do this - just stop being so bad and I won't be _forced _to do this SMACK" Absolute load of dog doo. Don't even speak to that parent anymore. It wasn't out of LOVE, it was out of frustration and/or bullying. There are SO MANY other ways to tackle problems that don't involve harm, it boggles my mind when people say they're "out of options" or that this is even the BETTER way to do things! Get a grip and do some research!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Oh, boy, the spanking can of worms... All I'm going to say is that there is a study that showed that there ARE cases where spanking did benefit somebody, but those were highly specific. I, myself do fall in that camp. And this was in Uni, in a class on child development about 3 years ago.

I shall say no more on the above because it really doesn't belong here.

However, swatting your dog is usually a very bad idea. They don't have the capacity to understand like people do.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Willowy said:


> There is no way to hit someone in a way that says "love". Just no way. My mother claimed she hit me because she loved me and that's a load of horse puckey---it's just something people tell themselves to help them feel better about hurting and violating someone smaller and more helpless than they are. All scientific research indicates that striking children (and dogs) is harmful. No matter what kind of cutesy name you want to call it.


The very high horse that you're riding in on tells me that you have been succesful and done well for yourself.... You dont think that may have something to do with the way you were raised and disciplined? Maybe you should be thanking your mother rather chastising her. 

I was spanked and disciplined as a child and I think it helped in the overal scheme of things... Maybe not, I don't know. When I came out as a gay man they had a hard time with it and said and did some things but got over it and are very supportive now. But if a had been coddled my whole life I may not have handled it as well as it did. There are always two ways to look at it...

This has gotten way off topic... I'm going to watch the video now and hopefully come up with some answers to my original question


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Not hitting your child does not equal "coddling". One can be harsh/abusive without hitting too. And one can be lovingly firm without hitting.

And I suppose I did OK for myself financially but I don't think I'm a model of emotional health. Panic attacks, anxiety disorders, etc. It would have been nice not to have to deal with that but whatevs. Like I said on another forum---I appreciate my mother for the good things she did but it's like having your friend do some work on your house, but he accidentally breaks a window. It's great he worked on the siding! But now there's a broken window and you still have to deal with the brokenness of that window even if he didn't mean to do damage. Good intentions do not erase damage. 

But yeah, OT . I just get a little trigger-y on some subjects.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Not hitting your child does not equal "coddling". One can be harsh/abusive without hitting too. And one can be lovingly firm without hitting.
> 
> And I suppose I did OK for myself financially but I don't think I'm a model of emotional health. Panic attacks, anxiety disorders, etc. It would have been nice not to have to deal with that but whatevs. Like I said on another forum---I appreciate my mother for the good things she did but it's like having your friend do some work on your house, but he accidentally breaks a window. It's great he worked on the siding! But now there's a broken window and you still have to deal with the brokenness of that window even if he didn't mean to do damage. Good intentions do not erase damage.
> 
> ...


I don't keep on harping on the subject... But do you really believe your emotional defects were from spanking as a child? Myself and Gavin were spanked and turned out just fine! There has to be more to the story... Just like lightly swatting a dog shouldn't have long lasting mental issues if done the right way and with possitive reenforcment. just my opinion 

I do want to do it in another way if possible... Cooper the lab is so energetic and high strung and oliver the multipoo is so laid back but yippie! They each have ther own quirks that need attention


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> I don't keep on harping on the subject... But do you really believe your emotional defects were from spanking as a child? Myself and Gavin were spanked and turned out just fine! There has to be more to the story... Just like lightly swatting a dog shouldn't have long lasting mental issues if done the right way and with possitive reenforcment. just my opinion
> 
> I do want to do it in another way if possible... Cooper the lab is so energetic and high strung and oliver the multipoo is so laid back but yippie! They each have ther own quirks that need attention


I sort of agree with you because I used to immediately correct alarming behavior with my dog by simulating a 'nip' on her back legs. However, I do think this has to be done to closely coincide with the behavior. Cause and Effect.
It might be a weird suggestion but do you think you might have better success if you cause them to bark in front of the child and then lightly discipline them in some way so they associate?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Ollie Monster said:


> I sort of agree with you because I used to immediately correct alarming behavior with my dog by simulating a 'nip' on her back legs. However, I do think this has to be done to closely coincide with the behavior. Cause and Effect.
> It might be a weird suggestion but do you think you might have better success if you cause them to bark in front of the child and then lightly discipline them in some way so they associate?


The risk there would be them associating the correction with the baby, and not the barking. There is no need to go to physical corrections without first trying the positive methods. Correction based methods have a much higher risk of fallout if not done correctly. If after trying all of the positive methods that have been suggested there are still no results (for the proper period of time, this won't be fixed in a matter of a week or two) THEN I -might- consult a trainer for assistance. I would not suggest the OP try using corrections for this behaviour without the supervision of a trainer.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

What even happened to this thread o.o

Definitely no need for physical correction, it does nothing if you're lucky and creates behavioral fallouts if not. Same with children. The fact people are judging and belittling peoples past negative experiences is disgusting to me, this isn't the place for your opinions.

Please stick to helping the OP.


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## MollyM (May 19, 2015)

Fumiko said:


> My kid not act out because have discipline. Taught from early age.


Discipline means "to teach." There are plenty of ways to teach without using violence. Hitting is teaching through fear.



dark_bark said:


> But do you really believe your emotional defects were from spanking as a child? Myself and Gavin were spanked and turned out just fine!


Define "just fine." I guarantee you that everyone's definition is different. 

I was spanked as a kid, occasionally. It didn't teach me to behave better....that simply came with growing up. What it taught me was to avoid getting caught.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I don't keep on harping on the subject... But do you really believe your emotional defects were from spanking as a child? Myself and Gavin were spanked and turned out just fine!


Judging from my particular triggers, yes, I do blame physical punishment for my emotional issues. The violation of having physical pain (even "mild" pain) forced on one's body can be extremely traumatic for some people.

And I don't necessarily believe people who say they turned out "fine", because 1. they think hitting children/dogs is OK; that's not fine! and 2. the people who say that to me in person decidedly are NOT fine: my parents, for example, are truly screwed up and really ought to be in therapy, and I can say with a fair degree of certainty that the way their parents treated them is a huge factor. But they'll say they turned out fine. I don't want to belittle anyone's experience in the other direction either, but I hope they've really thought about whether that part of their life really didn't affect them negatively in any way.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Me and my older brother used to have fist fights all the time when we were younger, we're basically best friends now apart from some small bickering but if he is close to me and moves to fast I automatically go to defend myself, most the time he's reaching for something near me so my reaction is just from past experience playing on my mind.

Even if you don't have the same reactions as I have now, I can gaurentee you resented them at the time and it didn't fix the behavior.

There's better methods, they usually take a little longer but you get a more confident and less on edge pup/child and isn't that someone everyone who claims to love things wants?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Don't see much point in this post, the OP came here for options, and help.
> 
> Here's a good video that may help.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp_l9C1yT1g


This is a good video ^^^^

There are several here, as well, including one specifically about barking at doorbells: Pam's Dog Academy.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

I watched the video... Awesome! I will give it a try tonight! It seem like that little dog at a ton of treats though... And do I need the clicker?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

dark_bark said:


> I watched the video... Awesome! I will give it a try tonight! It seem like that little dog at a ton of treats though... And do I need the clicker?


They get quite a few treats in the beginning, but eventually can be given fewer. I do a few things to control the amount of food they're getting depending on the complexity of the training:

- reduce regular meals to compensate for calories
- use portion of regular meals as "treats"
- mix a portion of regular meals with higher value items

If I were just starting out or working on a difficult behavior or with many distractions, I'd use high value treats and reduce meal amounts.

You don't need a clicker (you can use a marker word), but it can help with precision.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Me and my older brother used to have fist fights all the time when we were younger, we're basically best friends now apart from some small bickering but if he is close to me and moves to fast I automatically go to defend myself, most the time he's reaching for something near me so my reaction is just from past experience playing on my mind.
> 
> Even if you don't have the same reactions as I have now, I can gaurentee you resented them at the time and it didn't fix the behavior.
> 
> There's better methods, they usually take a little longer but you get a more confident and less on edge pup/child and isn't that someone everyone who claims to love things wants?


I don't flinch when my dad or Gavin hug me... it's not the same for everyone is what I'm saying


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Judging from my particular triggers, yes, I do blame physical punishment for my emotional issues. The violation of having physical pain (even "mild" pain) forced on one's body can be extremely traumatic for some people.
> 
> And I don't necessarily believe people who say they turned out "fine", because 1. they think hitting children/dogs is OK; that's not fine! and 2. the people who say that to me in person decidedly are NOT fine: my parents, for example, are truly screwed up and really ought to be in therapy, and I can say with a fair degree of certainty that the way their parents treated them is a huge factor. But they'll say they turned out fine. I don't want to belittle anyone's experience in the other direction either, but I hope they've really thought about whether that part of their life really didn't affect them negatively in any way.





dark_bark said:


> I don't flinch when my dad or Gavin hug me... it's not the same for everyone is what I'm saying


I kind of agree with the OP, I too was spanked BUT it was because I really deserved it.

But I will say that spanking very young kids and dogs is wrong because they lack the reasoning skills to understand WHY they are being spanked. Also, correction based methods are best left to the people who know what they are doing at VERY BEST ... but they really shouldnt be used at all because there is a better way now. I myself used to be VERY pro correction but have since crossed over to the positive side of things, I would rather shape, use operant conditioning, classical conditioning etc ... I would rather have a dog who WANTS to please me and has FUN working with me, as opposed to a dog who is afraid of punishment if they dont do what I say.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

MollyM said:


> Nobody "needs" to be hit. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem is going to look like a nail.
> 
> I don't think Nicole's post was angry. She's just telling it like it is. And hitting is hitting, no matter if you want to call it swatting, slapping, popping, smacking, or spanking. Those are cutesy little terms that people use to justify hitting creatures who are generally smaller than you and dependent upon you for their care.
> 
> ...


Yes this. I'm not "yelling". I capitalized certain words for emphasis. I'm simply trying to explain to you why many of the things mentioned in this thread are bad suggestions. You cannot resolve a behaviour without a thorough understanding of why it is occurring. 



Ollie Monster said:


> I have to disagree with Nichole. I have a PON and she responded quite positively to little 'nips' on her back legs when she was way out of line. Especially when she was being aggressive with other dogs or trying to herd people/children.
> 
> Maybe that is just something specific to herding breeds?


Please explain to me how "nipping" your dog on the leg (whatever that is supposed to mean? Pinching? Poking? Yet another cutesy word to downplay something that you know is unacceptable) is going to teach your dog not to feel scared/intimidated/defensive towards other dogs? I'm not even looking for a scientific explanation. Just common sense. How does "nipping" your dog change its emotional response to a particular situation?

It doesn't. You may startle/scare/irritate your dog enough to temporarily suppress the behaviour, but you are certainly not resolving the underlying state of emotion which is causing the behaviour in the first place. Long term, you can almost bet one of a few things will happen. Your dog will no longer be phased by what you are doing and begin acting out again; OR your dog will lash out at you in frustration in response to what you are doing to him; OR you will cause the dog to emotionally shut down as you are giving one more negative thing for the dog to associate with a situation that he already finds stressful.

I hope you are not being irresponsible enough to continuously throw your dog into situations with other dogs knowing he has a history of being aggressive, but foolishly thinking you can control it with this.


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## MollyM (May 19, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> I don't flinch when my dad or Gavin hug me... it's not the same for everyone is what I'm saying


Okay, let's operate under your theory.

You don't know what the outcome will be of hitting your dog, so doesn't it logically follow that it's better to err on the side of caution and NOT hit your dog?


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Yes this. I'm not "yelling". I capitalized certain words for emphasis. I'm simply trying to explain to you why many of the things mentioned in this thread are bad suggestions. You cannot resolve a behaviour without a thorough understanding of why it is occurring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol at you being a dog psychologist. She is a dog, not a person. You can't keep projecting complex emotions into a dog's behavior. 

I'm not even sure why you are so upset since you don't even know what I am talking about. By 'nipping' I mean basically the same motion you use for the chicken-dance song, applied to her hind quarters around the area of the nee. I don't need to do it anymore but when I did, it immediately broke her concentration and she turned around to face me. I reinforced with a 'no'. After some time doing this, she learned that her aggressive behavior was not acceptable. If you owned an aggressive herding dog, you would already know that they sometimes nip at each others legs. Not only to play but also to herd. 

What I did, worked. It was neither irresponsible or unacceptable. No dogs were bitten, no squirrels were mangled, and I didn't have to explain to my neighbor that my dog bit his kid on the leg because the kid got the dog to chase him.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Well I thought I would report back and let you guys know how it went last night... 

We tried the methods that were in the video that was in this thread. Let just say it didn't pan out the way I had hoped... They would just take the treat and bark constantly. I stood outside while Gavin tried to keep them in place and do what was shown in the video. After 30 mins of this Gavin got mad and threw up his hands and put the bark collars back on. After we put Jaxxon to bed Gavin told me he wants to get rid of the dogs. I think it was just out of frustration but I'm scared... 

If it comes down to that are there any good Rehoming websites so that they end up in a good home?


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

dark_bark said:


> Well I thought I would report back and let you guys know how it went last night...
> 
> We tried the methods that were in the video that was in this thread. Let just say it didn't pan out the way I had hoped... They would just take the treat and bark constantly. I stood outside while Gavin tried to keep them in place and do what was shown in the video. After 30 mins of this Gavin got mad and threw up his hands and put the bark collars back on. After we put Jaxxon to bed Gavin told me he wants to get rid of the dogs. I think it was just out of frustration but I'm scared...
> 
> If it comes down to that are there any good Rehoming websites so that they end up in a good home?


It's going to take more than 1 time for them to understand what you want


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

kcomstoc said:


> It's going to take more than 1 time for them to understand what you want


I know that... But try telling Gavin that, he's at his breaking point!

Jaxxon is way more important than my two dogs to him (rightfully so)... so that's where his priorities are


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

dark_bark said:


> I know that... But try telling Gavin that, he's at his breaking point!
> 
> Jaxxon is way more important than my two dogs to him (rightfully so)... so that's where his priorities are


Historically dogs have always been easier to train than husbands.

It's not going to be fixed in one, two or even 7 or 8 instances. It will take time, patience, and consistency.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have a miniature American shepherd who is a big time Barker, so I understand your issues believe me I do. But putting bark collars on the dogs, and just throwing your hands up and saying that's it I give up after one time it's not going to help anything. This is going to take weeks maybe months to fix because it is a deeply ingrained behavior, barking is especially hard to curb because it is a self rewarding behavior for many dogs, dogs reward themselves when they bark so taking a treat is often secondary.

but if you do decide to rehome them, please do so responsibly. I don't usually say this, but I am starting to think that rehoming might be the logical step in this situation, because it doesn't seem like your partner wants to put forth the time and effort that is required to curb this kind of behavior. He just seems like he wants it to just stop by itself or in one session and that is just not the way it's going to happen.


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> Do you leave the leash on all the time?
> 
> They are nice dogs and don't want them to have to wear them all the time if at all possible...? But this seems like it may work pretty well!


If I was in your situation I would leash them up when ever you are expecting company. Even better practice with a friend or neighbor! Have that person come and knock or make noises outside that usually trigger your dogs. You should be ready with them leashed and be ready to correct and treat when they are calm/paying attention to you. Personally because I don't have kids I would keep them leashed all the time (that way you can catch the bad behavior at all times). But I know that, that can be a bit much in a busy household. So like a said if you could get a friend, neighbor, etc to help you out, I am sure you could make progress. I used this method with a barking/shrieking mess that I was fostering at the time. It took a little time but he caught on and my ears were SO happy in the end.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Quite honestly, if nobody is willing to work on this in a less painful manner, and it may come down to something truly horrible happening to the dogs (you have zero control after re-homing them. Even with careful screening, you have no idea what could happen), just put the bark collars on the dogs and leave them there. That's better than a lot of inconsistent "correcting" and negative feelings, and especially better than possible re-homing and/or throwing them outside. Don't take the collars off because that will confuse the dogs.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

MollyM said:


> Okay, let's operate under your theory.
> 
> You don't know what the outcome will be of hitting your dog, so doesn't it logically follow that it's better to err on the side of caution and NOT hit your dog?


EXACTLY, and there's better, kinder methods so why would you even?



Ollie Monster said:


> Lol at you being a dog psychologist. She is a dog, not a person. You can't keep projecting complex emotions into a dog's behavior.
> 
> I'm not even sure why you are so upset since you don't even know what I am talking about. By 'nipping' I mean basically the same motion you use for the chicken-dance song, applied to her hind quarters around the area of the nee. I don't need to do it anymore but when I did, it immediately broke her concentration and she turned around to face me. I reinforced with a 'no'. After some time doing this, she learned that her aggressive behavior was not acceptable. If you owned an aggressive herding dog, you would already know that they sometimes nip at each others legs. Not only to play but also to herd.
> 
> What I did, worked. It was neither irresponsible or unacceptable. No dogs were bitten, no squirrels were mangled, and I didn't have to explain to my neighbor that my dog bit his kid on the leg because the kid got the dog to chase him.


See above and also you're the one trying to be a dog by "nipping" when you're not one...

Your method is wrong, you shouldn't be putting your dog in a position where it's over threshold and not listening to you in the first place... Let alone adding a physical correction to an already negative situation, that is known to cause behavioral fall outs in SOME dogs. Meaning you're risking having long term negatives, you got off lucky but someone else following your advice might not.

I wish people would know half of what they're talking about before pretending to be dog trainers...


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## MelTruffles (Jan 27, 2015)

OP, you sound like you're already deciding to rehome. If that's the case I strongly urge you to consult a trainer who has face to face experience with your dogs. Things don't work overnight. Training takes time especially when you're trying to stop them from doing something innate. 

I would call around to some trainers who can help you approach this in a *humane* and proper way.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Are we really equating what is essentially poking a dog to get it's attention with hitting the dog? Not sure why it has to be an imitation of nipping but otherwise I don't get the outrage. 

Then again, I've grabbed my dog's tails to get their attention on multiple occasions so I probably go in the bin with the dog-beaters.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Are we really equating what is essentially poking a dog to get it's attention with hitting the dog? Not sure why it has to be an imitation of nipping but otherwise I don't get the outrage.
> 
> Then again, I've grabbed my dog's tails to get their attention on multiple occasions so I probably go in the bin with the dog-beaters.


No, at least I'm not. The only reason you need to physically touch them to get back their attention is because they're over threshold over a situation which should never be the case because that means the dog is not listening to you and also very stressed. You should be working inside your dogs threshold so they're not stressed over the situation and responsive to calls/commands/gestures to avoid stress and your dog will also learn faster. Not to mention adding a surprise or physical correction to a situation your dog already feels tense about can cause the problem to escalate as you're adding another negative effect to the pool.

I'm sure if you were super focused or day dreaming and someone shouted near you or poked you then you'd either be annoyed, frightened or angry, not going oh thanks for that, I'll do this more often so you can do that again.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Ollie Monster said:


> Lol at you being a dog psychologist. She is a dog, not a person. You can't keep projecting complex emotions into a dog's behavior.
> 
> I'm not even sure why you are so upset since you don't even know what I am talking about. By 'nipping' I mean basically the same motion you use for the chicken-dance song, applied to her hind quarters around the area of the nee. I don't need to do it anymore but when I did, it immediately broke her concentration and she turned around to face me. I reinforced with a 'no'. After some time doing this, she learned that her aggressive behavior was not acceptable. If you owned an aggressive herding dog, you would already know that they sometimes nip at each others legs. Not only to play but also to herd.


If someone did that with my herding dog that would get aggressive towards other dogs when on leash, they'd get bit. That's called redirection, and it's what often happens when you try to 'break the dog's concentration' and the dog turns around to face you... Thankfully you lucked out with your dog. Good for you. 

All in all, I'm kinda with Willowy's last comment on this matter. I don't like bark collars, but if there's no time/energy/willingness to train and work with the dogs, and you personally can live with them always wearing bark collars and they've stopped barking when they wear them. Well. I guess that's your solution right there. 

If you can't live with that, or if your boyfriend breaks and insists on rehoming them, maybe you can contact breed rescues or no-kill shelters. From what I've read there's nothing wrong with these dogs other than that they bark, so hopefully finding them new homes isn't hard.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Avie said:


> All in all, I'm kinda with Willowy's last comment on this matter. I don't like bark collars, but if there's no time/energy/willingness to train and work with the dogs, and you personally can live with them always wearing bark collars and they've stopped barking when they wear them. Well. I guess that's your solution right there.


But also say goodbye to your dogs barking and warning you if someone wants to break into your house in the night because they're too frightened to do a natural behavior.

Surely the decision to use such hard methods shouldn't be about whether you're happy with doing it, it's about the dogs welfare...


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> But also say goodbye to your dogs barking and warning you if someone wants to break into your house in the night because they're too frightened to do a natural behavior.
> 
> Surely the decision to use such hard methods shouldn't be about whether you're happy with doing it, it's about the dogs welfare...


That's why I didn't say 'if you're happy with it' but 'if you can live with it'. I know I couldn't.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Avie said:


> That's why I didn't say 'if you're happy with it' but 'if you can live with it'. I know I couldn't.


Ah that makes sense, I thought it was a bit odd because it didn't fit with the rest of your advice.
I guess people use methods we don't like all the time, all we can do is educate them best we can and let them make their own decision, it's silly to get frustrated over something you have no control over.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Are we really equating what is essentially poking a dog to get it's attention with hitting the dog? Not sure why it has to be an imitation of nipping but otherwise I don't get the outrage.
> 
> Then again, I've grabbed my dog's tails to get their attention on multiple occasions so I probably go in the bin with the dog-beaters.


Not at all equating a poke to hitting. My issue is not with the 'poke' itself but with the idea that its an appropriate way to train a dog to not be aggressive. I've poked my dog, grabbed his tail, beeped his nose- we play goofy games of tag, and roughhouse...he loves it. But i would never do that to try to "snap him out" of being aggressive.

OP, personally i think the most humane thing you could do would be to rehome your dogs. if you're family doesn't have the time/patience to train them, i think its most fair to give them to somebody who does rather than being inconsistent and confusing them, and then shocking them for not understanding what was never taught to them. -not at all meant as an insult, i just think it would be best for you and them.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks for all the thoughts and advice...

After talking with Gavin today after he has calmed down he still is persistent on giving them away. I told him that wasn't an option and that we need to figure this out. I grew up with dogs and I want Jaxxon to do the same! I told him even if the bark collars had to stay on all the time we can do that. He was open to the idea but is still at his wits end. I don't want this to cause problems in our relationship especially with our new child. We have moved past Gavins anger issues and i feel like we are regressing. 

Sorry to trouble you all with my problems but this is a good outlet for me


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Are we really equating what is essentially poking a dog to get it's attention with hitting the dog? Not sure why it has to be an imitation of nipping but otherwise I don't get the outrage.
> 
> Then again, I've grabbed my dog's tails to get their attention on multiple occasions so I probably go in the bin with the dog-beaters.


Beats me, but given how often I poke, nudge, grab, or whatever to get my dog's attention, they're going to collapse into puddles of goo soon. I mean yeah, usually I can just you know, call them, but sometimes my first reaction isn't words. I'd love to claim it's come from years with the deaf one and I certainly do it MORE now thanks to her, but truth is SOMETIMES I JUST GRAB MY DOGS. Sometimes I do it in PLAY, even. In fact, I often grab Thud by the tail. He whirls around to look at me all right, but he's certainly not upset. It's the most exciting thing in the world for him because 'OMG WE MIGHT ROUGHHOUSE?!'

Dogs are not, generally, fragile little things made of glass if they're touched anything but reverently. 

I mean no, I wouldn't hit my dogs to 'teach' them because that's just asinine, but we're really getting upset over *poking them* now?


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

I personally would rather see these dogs stay than rehomed. They are older dogs, and therefore will be a LOT harder to rehome. If the collars are giving you lasting peace, just keep them on the dogs.

Men are weird and stubborn. He might change his mind on his own if he sees how much good the dogs can bring.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Not at all equating a poke to hitting. My issue is not with the 'poke' itself but with the idea that its an appropriate way to train a dog to not be aggressive. I've poked my dog, grabbed his tail, beeped his nose- we play goofy games of tag, and roughhouse...he loves it. But i would never do that to try to "snap him out" of being aggressive.
> .


This I agree with. I'm pretty sure attempts at doing so with any of mine while they were agitated would just get me bit. It seems kind of dumb, honestly. I don't want them whirling back toward me in that situation, I want OUT of the situation period. I'd more likely smack them outright if it was a bad enough situation to require physical intervention for safety and if it wasn't bad enough for physical intervention then no point poking.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> Thanks for all the thoughts and advice...
> 
> After talking with Gavin today after he has calmed down he still is persistent on giving them away. I told him that wasn't an option and that we need to figure this out. I grew up with dogs and I want Jaxxon to do the same! I told him even if the bark collars had to stay on all the time we can do that. He was open to the idea but is still at his wits end. I don't want this to cause problems in our relationship especially with our new child. We have moved past Gavins anger issues and i feel like we are regressing.
> 
> Sorry to trouble you all with my problems but this is a good outlet for me


I assume the biggest problem he's having with it is his son being disturbed from sleep... Completely understand that! 
I think the best course of action is do the positive training during the day so it's not disturbing your son and to mentally and physically exercise the dogs more so they're tired when your son will be sleeping and then restrict them to the back of the house in a room or large dog crate where they either do not hear the door to react or where your son cannot hear. Maybe try a crate with a cover or a nest bed so it's easy for the dog to shut off from the outside environment and it will disguise the barks more while you work things out.

I would cut your boyfriend from the training to be honest, anger has no place in training and will set you back further. This type of training will take a while to sink into the dogs so patience and consistency is key. Have you got a friend/family member who can help?


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> Well I thought I would report back and let you guys know how it went last night...
> 
> We tried the methods that were in the video that was in this thread. Let just say it didn't pan out the way I had hoped... They would just take the treat and bark constantly. I stood outside while Gavin tried to keep them in place and do what was shown in the video. After 30 mins of this Gavin got mad and threw up his hands and put the bark collars back on. After we put Jaxxon to bed Gavin told me he wants to get rid of the dogs. I think it was just out of frustration but I'm scared...
> 
> If it comes down to that are there any good Rehoming websites so that they end up in a good home?





dark_bark said:


> I know that... But try telling Gavin that, he's at his breaking point!
> 
> Jaxxon is way more important than my two dogs to him (rightfully so)... so that's where his priorities are


These dogs have years of reinforcing their own behavior (which is the barking). It's going to take time for this to work. 30 minutes isn't going to cut it. You either need to explain this to your SO and get _him_ under control, or you need to find a new home for your dogs. It's not fair to the dogs to expect them to change their behavior after 30 minutes. It's going to take week if not months. 

Rock, meet hard spot. This whole situation is just completely unfair to your dogs. There's no win here. You can try to rehome them, but it's going to take time to find a suitable home. Could be weeks before you find someone. You could put bark collars on them, which is just.... crappy. You could drop them off at a shelter, where they're probably never going to find homes because of their age. Or you could take the time to train them not to bark, but you're still going to have weeks of frustration before they figure out what you want.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Honestly? That sounds like a really less-than-ideal situation for everyone involved. But then, I have my own personal issues with people who have anger issues.

There are definitely positive ways that you can work with a dog on things like this. I know some people have mentioned some good ones! I also didn't see it mentioned (but I admit I may have skimmed through a few posts) are you able to put up a sticky note on your door to ask delivery people and whoever not to ring the bell? 

I know several people who use a "go to mat" command so that their dogs automatically go to a down-stay on their designated mats when the doorbell rings or someone knocks. I even saw someone who trained their dog to go pick up a pillow to bring to the guest when the doorbell rings - you can't bark with a pillow in your mouth! Plenty of options to try (including finding a good, positive trainer to help you out), but things take time. Even the bark collar takes some time. Teaching a dog is like teaching a person a completely new language, you know? You don't expect kids to learn the ABCs in an hour!


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Just some suggestions based on what's worked at my house (I have a Dachshund mix who loves to alert bark):

1) I always have some background noise on (radio, TV, dog relaxation CD, whatever). It doesn't have to be loud, just loud enough to drown out the outside noises that gets them going.

2)Marley loves to look out our livingroom window. Anytime there is a passerby, she will bark. So we put privacy window film on the bottom half of the window. Marley can't see anyone outside unless they come very close to the window, and that cut down A LOT of the barking. I also like that no one outside can see in.

3)Put up a "no soliciting" sign to lessen the amount of unnecessary visits. Edit: you could also put a mailbox on the edge of your lawn by the sidewalk (rather than right by your door)to prevent unwanted foot traffic that they can hear.

I think, if you can decrease the amount of times in a day that they feel they need to bark through managing their environment, it will be easier on everyone. The shock collars won't go off as much and you can practice training positively in a more relaxed state of mind (to hopefully wean them off the collars).


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Effisia said:


> I also didn't see it mentioned (but I admit I may have skimmed through a few posts) are you able to put up a sticky note on your door to ask delivery people and whoever not to ring the bell?


This is actually really good advice! I remember my neighbors doing this when they took care of their grandkid for a couple months. It read "Don't ring the bell, baby sleeping!" You don't even have to mention your dogs.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Beats me, but given how often I poke, nudge, grab, or whatever to get my dog's attention, they're going to collapse into puddles of goo soon. I mean yeah, usually I can just you know, call them, but sometimes my first reaction isn't words. I'd love to claim it's come from years with the deaf one and I certainly do it MORE now thanks to her, but truth is SOMETIMES I JUST GRAB MY DOGS. Sometimes I do it in PLAY, even. In fact, I often grab Thud by the tail. He whirls around to look at me all right, but he's certainly not upset. It's the most exciting thing in the world for him because 'OMG WE MIGHT ROUGHHOUSE?!'
> 
> Dogs are not, generally, fragile little things made of glass if they're touched anything but reverently.
> 
> I mean no, I wouldn't hit my dogs to 'teach' them because that's just asinine, but we're really getting upset over *poking them* now?


Yea my life doesn't always cooperate with being under threshold.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Yea my life doesn't always cooperate with being under threshold.


And that I completely understand and agree if it's an emergency or there's no other way to break the fixation in a dangerous situation but it certainly shouldn't be used as a corrective method, just an eject button I guess.

I think this thread is full of people not explaining themselves properly or giving enough info on the method they're using without explaining so it's all people judging from very little info.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Yea my life doesn't always cooperate with being under threshold.


Given Molly's threshold... I don't think a life is POSSIBLE that would have kept her under threshold for a while there.  We're better now, really.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

pawsaddict said:


> Just some suggestions based on what's worked at my house (I have a Dachshund mix who loves to alert bark):
> 
> 1) I always have some background noise on (radio, TV, dog relaxation CD, whatever). It doesn't have to be loud, just loud enough to drown out the outside noises that gets them going.
> 
> ...


Great advice, a white noise machine in the baby's room might also help to keep him from being woken up on those occasions the dogs do bark.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

My boys were born into a home with a sheltie and a chihuahua who had never really been trained not to bark. My boys both learned to sleep through dog barking, kids adapt (our room was right by the front door too). There is some great advice on this thread, white noise, putting up a No soliciting or Don't Ring Bell sign. Definitely work with your dogs on alternative behaviors like going to a bed or mat or even just a "quiet" command so you can stop the barking before it really gets going. I think the big issue is the anger not the dogs. If he isn't angry about the dogs what will he be angry about next?


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## 2Dogfarm (Apr 23, 2015)

I feel like I might be the only person in the world who *wants* her dogs to bark when someone comes to the door. ??


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Our dog is our doorbell, lol. We depend on his efforts.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

It never was a problem before but now things have changed... Lol


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Avie said:


> Our dog is our doorbell, lol. We depend on his efforts.


yeah same here/ plus I don't mind the delivery people (actually they are always men...) hearing our pack of wolverines....


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

Lol same here! I have always encouraged my dogs to bark at the door. Morrison sounds about twice his size when he barks/bays, I would definitely be deterred! But I have always been careful all along to teach a really solid "Quiet" command .


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## CharlieFox (Jan 25, 2014)

haha I wish my pup could be a doorbell. She alert barks at anything out windows, odd noises and people but she never barks at the door. Though anyone who knocks at the door is either friends, food delivery people or mail carriers with packages. I think her thoughts are either attention and belly rubs from guests or '' if i'm good I might get a pizza crust'', or whats in that package? is it for me!

especially with food delivery people the only way I know their at the door is she will start wagging her tail and then go into her crate.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

dark_bark said:


> It never was a problem before but now things have changed... Lol


This is likely a big part of the problem. If you allowed them to bark for years and now suddenly need to change that, it's very confusing for them (as is bringing home a tiny human). 

Imagine you worked for a very casual company and employees were encouraged to call members of senior management by first name, walk into offices without appointments, and generally be relaxed. Then, a new president was hired and wanted a more professional atmosphere. It would probably take some time for people to stop saying "Hey, Joe" in favor of "Good morning, Mr. Hendrix."


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> EXACTLY, and there's better, kinder methods so why would you even?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No. My method worked rather well. Very well actually. Not sure where you read that I was placing Ollie in a position over her threshold. Also not sure why you think I am putting myself as a trainer. 

She was a rescue dog for me, and she had a lot of bad behaviors. She had been with a trainer and the original owner didn't follow through. When she came to me she followed the lead of my older dog but became more aggressive when the old dog died. My catching her attention and making her focus on me rather than what was in front of her was as close as I could get to immediate correction. She responded very well. It worked out fine. Had it not, I would have tried another method. I already said she was a very strong herder and wasn't one to listen. 

Had I taken her to another trainer, that trainer would have had to artificially create the same situation that I saw at home. It's not magic. Dogs are pack animals. As soon as she came to terms that I lead the pack, she learned to follow my lead. She has no idea I'm not another dog.


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

Avie said:


> If someone did that with my herding dog that would get aggressive towards other dogs when on leash, they'd get bit. That's called redirection, and it's what often happens when you try to 'break the dog's concentration' and the dog turns around to face you... Thankfully you lucked out with your dog. Good for you.
> 
> All in all, I'm kinda with Willowy's last comment on this matter. I don't like bark collars, but if there's no time/energy/willingness to train and work with the dogs, and you personally can live with them always wearing bark collars and they've stopped barking when they wear them. Well. I guess that's your solution right there.
> 
> If you can't live with that, or if your boyfriend breaks and insists on rehoming them, maybe you can contact breed rescues or no-kill shelters. From what I've read there's nothing wrong with these dogs other than that they bark, so hopefully finding them new homes isn't hard.


Lol. You are probably right for most dogs. For some reason she always pauses, pokes with her snout first... and tries to push before trying to clamp. She is usually very gentle and doesn't even mouth when pushed into play unless we use a toy... so maybe I did get lucky. Still, she was (is) hard headed.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Ollie...

I actually tried the pinching the hind leg approach today! It worked rather well on my lab but Oliver the little dog actually nipped at Gavin! So we may be on to something with more work!


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> Ollie...
> 
> I actually tried the pinching the hind leg approach today! It worked rather well on my lab but Oliver the little dog actually nipped at Gavin! So we may be on to something with more work!


Hmm. I'm feel sure I mentioned that the other dog was not near enough to get nipped. Ollie was on a leash and it was a natural walking situation. And it wasn't 'pinching'. It was just a light 'chicken dance motion' that caught her back leg enough to catch her attention and make her turn to me. Did you read earlier where I said that maybe you should create a situation with the baby was crying with the dog in the room?

That might seem extreme but the closer you can get to correcting the behavior in a natural setting, the better your dog can understand how her behavior is not in keeping with your expectations.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Oh god.....

Domesticated dogs are not pack animals. You cannot be a "pack leader". And if you honestly believe that your dog thinks you're a dog.....well to put it nicely, you are completely undermining your dogs intelligence. "Over threshold" refers to any situation in which your dog is already performing the undesirable behaviour. So if your dog is showing aggression, he is over threshold in that situation. 

OP, it's really important that you follow advice that is based in science, rather than just with anecdotal evidence.


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## gwd (Sep 6, 2014)

Op, think about what you're asking her. You've got dogs that have alert barked for years and all of s sudden it's unacceptable because you have a child. You're not coming hear asking for advice because your dog is being aggressive toward your child................ your dog hasn't bitten your child, and yet you're entertaining the idea of rehoming because your kid is missing a little sleep????? My best advice is chill out. This is not the end of the world. I am upset for your family dynamics over your boyfriends reaction. He seems high strung and is trying to bully his way into winning this issue!!! Warning flags. There for me.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

gwd said:


> Op, think about what you're asking her. You've got dogs that have alert barked for years and all of s sudden it's unacceptable because you have a child. You're not coming hear asking for advice because your dog is being aggressive toward your child................ your dog hasn't bitten your child, and yet you're entertaining the idea of rehoming because your kid is missing a little sleep????? My best advice is chill out. This is not the end of the world. I am upset for your family dynamics over your boyfriends reaction. He seems high strung and is trying to bully his way into winning this issue!!! Warning flags. There for me.


This. (Too short)


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

gwd said:


> Op, think about what you're asking her. You've got dogs that have alert barked for years and all of s sudden it's unacceptable because you have a child. You're not coming hear asking for advice because your dog is being aggressive toward your child................ your dog hasn't bitten your child, and yet you're entertaining the idea of rehoming because your kid is missing a little sleep????? My best advice is chill out. This is not the end of the world. I am upset for your family dynamics over your boyfriends reaction. He seems high strung and is trying to bully his way into winning this issue!!! Warning flags. There for me.


Yes you are right, this is a less than ideal situation at this point with my dogs. I have had both of them for a long time and loved them throughout! When I met Gavin we were in love from the get go... So things changed. I didn't foresee that I would fall in love with him but I did... I can't help that! So yes the dynamics changed but I still love my dogs. The time Gavin hit cooper at my appt i almost drew the line... And the first time he slapped me I was DONE! But he went and got help and has been better! Now that we have Jaxxon he is the most important thing to me... Above Gavin and my boys! So I have to do whats right by my son... So please don't criticize the way I'm handling it! I'm just searching for some help and answers so that I can make this work out for everyone.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree, you can't just expect dogs to stop a behavior they've been grained over years because you suddenly find it inconvenient. Dogs bark as a source of communication it would be like telling you to stop talking. This is going to take probably almost as long as it took to get started to stop. It's not something that's going to happen overnight anything that produces results quickly is probably not the best choice. So you have to sit down and be honest with yourself, are you really in this for the long haul? Are you in this for the betterment of your dogs? Do you really have it in you to fix this issue in a humane and fair way to your dogs? If the answer to any of these questions is no, then you must really think about rehoming your dogs to a more suitable and friendly home for them.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Does it bother your son to have dogs barking? My son has a very noisy terrier mix and lives on a dog busy street. His twin 34 month olds aren't bothered by the dog barking at all. Dog has been barking their whole lives after all!


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

Poor dogs .


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Oh god.....
> 
> Domesticated dogs are not pack animals. You cannot be a "pack leader". And if you honestly believe that your dog thinks you're a dog.....well to put it nicely, you are completely undermining your dogs intelligence. "Over threshold" refers to any situation in which your dog is already performing the undesirable behaviour. So if your dog is showing aggression, he is over threshold in that situation.
> 
> OP, it's really important that you follow advice that is based in science, rather than just with anecdotal evidence.


Well, they sure are pack animals. Not sure how you can say they aren't if you are such a collector of 'science based' information. 

I think where you are getting it twisted is that more recent observations and a few studies have determined that domesticated dogs are not necessarily pack _hunters_. Studies on dingos and wild dogs in India, for example, show that the dogs tend toward scavenging from humans in small numbers or as individuals. Versus wolves who hunt in packs with a high level of coordination. 

You should catch up on some Ian Dunbar videos. He goes into great detail about the social hierarchy of dog packs. I don't know how to link, lol, but you can search youtube for Ian Dunbar and social hierarchy and get some extra science for yourself. 

I'm not even going to bother with your idea that your dog completely understands that you are a human being and he/she is a completely different animal altogether. Too silly.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> Yes you are right, this is a less than ideal situation at this point with my dogs. I have had both of them for a long time and loved them throughout! When I met Gavin we were in love from the get go... So things changed. I didn't foresee that I would fall in love with him but I did... I can't help that! So yes the dynamics changed but I still love my dogs. The time Gavin hit cooper at my appt i almost drew the line... And the first time he slapped me I was DONE! But he went and got help and has been better! Now that we have Jaxxon he is the most important thing to me... Above Gavin and my boys! So I have to do whats right by my son... So please don't criticize the way I'm handling it! I'm just searching for some help and answers so that I can make this work out for everyone.


There are some very glaring issues here and they aren't the dogs. I will tell you that I have two children and dogs. The dogs barking have not been an issue for my kids. I have posted that before and I will post it again. Your child will learn to sleep through the dogs barking, kids adapt that way. Creating a completely silent atmosphere for infants/toddlers to sleep in creates bad sleepers (there have been studies on this actually). So your dogs are doing you a favor. You can train your dogs to bark less, it will take time but it isn't hopeless. You will have to be committed and patient but it sounds like your partner is neither of those things. The real issue is, what do you think your partner will be upset about when the dogs are gone? Toddlers are not easy by any stretch, how are you going to feel when he wants to spank/hit your son for throwing tantrums, not eating his dinner, making messes, leaving his toys on the floor, ect? Are you willing to give up your dogs to make this man happy? Is it really about your son?


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

gwd said:


> Op, think about what you're asking her. You've got dogs that have alert barked for years and all of s sudden it's unacceptable because you have a child. You're not coming hear asking for advice because your dog is being aggressive toward your child................ your dog hasn't bitten your child, and yet you're entertaining the idea of rehoming because your kid is missing a little sleep????? My best advice is chill out. This is not the end of the world. I am upset for your family dynamics over your boyfriends reaction. He seems high strung and is trying to bully his way into winning this issue!!! Warning flags. There for me.


Excellent post.


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## garysdaddy (May 31, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> Yes you are right, this is a less than ideal situation at this point with my dogs. I have had both of them for a long time and loved them throughout! When I met Gavin we were in love from the get go... So things changed. I didn't foresee that I would fall in love with him but I did... I can't help that! So yes the dynamics changed but I still love my dogs. The time Gavin hit cooper at my appt i almost drew the line... And the first time he slapped me I was DONE! But he went and got help and has been better! Now that we have Jaxxon he is the most important thing to me... Above Gavin and my boys! So I have to do whats right by my son... So please don't criticize the way I'm handling it! I'm just searching for some help and answers so that I can make this work out for everyone.


this gavin fella sounds like a real handful


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## birddawg4 (Jan 22, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> Yes you are right, this is a less than ideal situation at this point with my dogs. I have had both of them for a long time and loved them throughout! When I met Gavin we were in love from the get go... So things changed. I didn't foresee that I would fall in love with him but I did... I can't help that! So yes the dynamics changed but I still love my dogs. The time Gavin hit cooper at my appt i almost drew the line... And the first time he slapped me I was DONE! But he went and got help and has been better! Now that we have Jaxxon he is the most important thing to me... Above Gavin and my boys! So I have to do whats right by my son... So please don't criticize the way I'm handling it! I'm just searching for some help and answers so that I can make this work out for everyone.


Well I just hope you do not have to re-home them. I've just heard too many horror stories of fur babies going to less than ideal situations bc the owners just wouldn't put in a little more time to work with them. Have you and Gavin thought about hiring a professional trainer to come over and not just work with your poor fur babies, but honestly work with you two at the same time?? I don't mean to be ugly, or get all Cesar Millan on you, but I would be that you and Gavin may be 50% of the problem. We all had to learn how to best communicate with our pups and I think most of us learn new things all the time. I would at least find a reputable trainer that could do a tag team style approach with you, Gavin and the pups. 

Best of luck Dark_Bark and don't give up yet!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

At the age of 7 and 10 re homing your dogs should be the very last resort. At those ages adoption for them would be hard. If your dogs are barking because someone is at the door maybe you could hang a note on the door not to knock child is sleeping. Get in the habit of hanging this when the child is down for a nap Keep some really good chew toys for the dogs to entertain them while the child is asleep. A marrow bone filled with frozen dog food, a kong toy filled the same way or use peanut butter. a treat ball filled with treats . Maybe buy a stroller and walk the dogs and child after breakfast/ This will tire out the dogs and the kid. The dogs and kid will go home for a nap. There are over the counter calming meds and sprays for dogs/ There is even a plug in variety. plug one in when the child is sleeping and where the dogs are at is where I would plug one in. Is the place big enough to have crates for the dogs. Maybe crating the dogs while the child is sleeping and having the dogs crated in another part of the house might help. Having a radio play or the tv on can help the dogs not hear if someone comes in. I would tell you it gets easier but just wait till they get their DL and think they have the right to stay out all night.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

dark_bark said:


> Yes you are right, this is a less than ideal situation at this point with my dogs. I have had both of them for a long time and loved them throughout! When I met Gavin we were in love from the get go... So things changed. I didn't foresee that I would fall in love with him but I did... I can't help that! So yes the dynamics changed but I still love my dogs. *The time Gavin hit cooper at my appt i almost drew the line... And the first time he slapped me I was DONE! But he went and got help and has been better!* Now that we have Jaxxon he is the most important thing to me... Above Gavin and my boys! So I have to do whats right by my son... So please don't criticize the way I'm handling it! I'm just searching for some help and answers so that I can make this work out for everyone.


I hope you and your son are honestly OK.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

CrimsonAccent said:


> dark_bark said:
> 
> 
> > Yes you are right, this is a less than ideal situation at this point with my dogs. I have had both of them for a long time and loved them throughout! When I met Gavin we were in love from the get go... So things changed. I didn't foresee that I would fall in love with him but I did... I can't help that! So yes the dynamics changed but I still love my dogs. *The time Gavin hit cooper at my appt i almost drew the line... And the first time he slapped me I was DONE! But he went and got help and has been better!* Now that we have Jaxxon he is the most important thing to me... Above Gavin and my boys! So I have to do whats right by my son... So please don't criticize the way I'm handling it! I'm just searching for some help and answers so that I can make this work out for everyone.
> ...


This. And your dogs too.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes, the pattern of physical abuse that seems to be in this relationship is very troubling to me.


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## yoUSCared (Oct 14, 2014)

Dark_bark, you really have to ask yourself which is more important.......a little bit of disturbed sleep for your child, or the value of a loving, nurturing home for your dogs. 

I think the answer is somewhat obvious.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

I think I've decided to rehome my dogs :-(

I went out to supper last night with my friend Trisha and Jaxxon last night and came home and the dogs were in there kennels.... Oliver came out of his just fine but cooper stayed in his and cowered in the corner (very weird for him). I asked Gavin what happened and he was very short with me and said they were barking so he put them away. I don't know if he laid hands on copper or what but he acted very strange.., I can't deal with this anymore. 

I appreciate all your kind words and guidance


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

It would seem to me that the dogs are not the ones in need of being rehomed....if you catch my drift.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

dark_bark said:


> I think I've decided to rehome my dogs :-(
> 
> I went out to supper last night with my friend Trisha and Jaxxon last night and came home and the dogs were in there kennels.... Oliver came out of his just fine but cooper stayed in his and cowered in the corner (very weird for him). I asked Gavin what happened and he was very short with me and said they were barking so he put them away. I don't know if he laid hands on copper or what but he acted very strange.., I can't deal with this anymore.
> 
> I appreciate all your kind words and guidance


Just something to think about from someone who has not only seen situations like this a lot, but BEEN the kid in a situation like this... Once the dogs are gone, who do you think Gavin's going to take his frustration out on? I'd put money down that you'll start seeing it come out against your kid. He's already laid hands on pets AND you. This situation isn't going to get better by getting rid of the poor dogs.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> It would seem to me that the dogs are not the ones in need of being rehomed....if you catch my drift.





Effisia said:


> Just something to think about from someone who has not only seen situations like this a lot, but BEEN the kid in a situation like this... Once the dogs are gone, who do you think Gavin's going to take his frustration out on? I'd put money down that you'll start seeing it come out against your kid. He's already laid hands on pets AND you. This situation isn't going to get better by getting rid of the poor dogs.



I am just going to agree with both of these. Rehoming your dogs is not going to fix the problems in your relationship. Gavin will just find some one else to be annoyed by, who do you think will be next? Some one needs out of that home, it isn't the dogs.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

I don't think you guys understand... I can't leave! I'm afraid the adoption agency will will take Jaxxon back and who knows where he will end up! I have to make this work for him. We have only had him for 6 months and are still checked on regularly. 

I have no choice but to do this for my son


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> I don't think you guys understand... I can't leave! I'm afraid the adoption agency will will take Jaxxon back and who knows where he will end up! I have to make this work for him. We have only had him for 6 months and are still checked on regularly.
> 
> I have no choice but to do this for my son


How do you think the adoption agency will react when they find out that he hits you or your son? Or if they find out he hits your dogs?


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

As a child who grew up in an abusive home and as an adult that has been in some very unhealthy relationships, I just want to say that making this relationship "work" is not the best thing for Jaxxon. Even if he never lays a hand on Jaxxon, the dynamic in the house will shape him and be the model for what he thinks a family and partnership is like.

Whether the dogs stay or not, I think that speaking to a professional on your own would be of help to both you and Jaxxon. And I say that as someone who has done a lot of counselling and group therapy. Educating and caring for yourself will be one of the best things you can do for Jaxxon (and yourself).

Edit: and if the dogs are possibly being abused when you are not home, and you intend on staying with Gavin, responsibly rehoming would be he best thing for the dogs, IMO. It will not fix Gavin, and I am sure other things will set him off in the future, but hopefully the dogs will be able to find peaceful homes where they do not have to be afraid.
I really hope you can find the strength within yourself to realize that you deserve better and CAN do better.


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

Remaru said:


> How do you think the adoption agency will react when they find out that he hits you or your son? Or if they find out he hits your dogs?


This! Absolutely this! In my opinion you are setting this poor kid up for a lot of chaos and heart ache in the future.


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## notgaga (Oct 25, 2014)

I would rehome Gavin. There's nothing wrong with being a single parent of an adopted kid, provided the child is a) SAFE and b) has needs met. 

The dogs are not the problem here.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Take Gavin to the pound, tie him to a post outside the front door and drive away. Humans are the worst animals.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Kids are a LOT more capable of stirring up anger than dogs. You can put a dog in its kennel, you can put a shock collar on it and not get in trouble, you can tie it to a leash. You can't do that to a child. A child is smarter, craftier, and sometimes just chooses to be rebellious for kicks.

What's going to happen when Jaxxon gets older if you get rid of the dogs? Is Gavin going to hold his temper when your son is going through the screaming phase and won't give you any peace? What about when he gets sick and cries through the entire night? What about when Jaxxon will inevitably blow you and Gavin off because he, in his young mind, thinks he's smarter than you or just plain doesn't feel like obeying? What if he struggles in school or plays a video game too loudly when Gavin wants to nap?

If he can't stand the dogs without abusing them, he needs to get his rear into counselling yesterday, because a dog will never cause as much anger and frustration as a child in his worst moments.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Thanks for all the support you guys have offered... this place is great

I'm truly in a tough spot


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

If anyone needs to go, I agree, it's the partner. You're a father now and Jaxxon needs to come first, as you've said. Even if he never hurts the child as he gets older and challenges him more (seems unlikely but hey), living in a toxic environment is no way to grow up. Get out and run as fast as you can! He sounds controlling & hot-tempered.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Staying with an abusive partner you put the risk of losing your child anyway. I would consider talking to a counselor who is skilled in counseling abusive relationships. Find out your rights and resources now instead of waiting for it to happen one night about 2 am and then be worried about where you are going to go for safety sakes. It is time to take off the rose-colored glasses and really look at your relationship with Gavin. Quit kidding yourself and making excuses for his actions. Jaxxon might be taken away from you and Gavin and any chances of you adopting in the future could be nixed. Can you afford to live on your own and still provide for Jaxxon? If the answer is yes, I think that would be the most nuturing choice to make for the sake of Jaxxon staying with you.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

All the above posts about leaving I agree with, the more I read about this, the more I fear for you, the dogs and your son. There are places that will take in parents and kids and some even take dogs. 

Also what do you think CPS is going to say when they find out your partner is abusive? I agree .... get out now before this gets worse.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm so sorry you are going through this! 

I absolutely agree with everyone here - please talk to a professional who can help/guide you. 

I was in that type of relationship as well. I kept it going with the excuse that "it will get better" even though it actually kept getting worse. Started out with him raising his voice at me. Then throwing things. Then controlling where I was, what I was doing and who I was with. Then the throwing of things was directed at _me_ ("accidentally".) The very last straw was 6 years into the relationship and Bella (a puppy at the time) was "annoying" him so he ended up grabbing her by the neck and slamming her face into the floor half a dozen times. That's what it took to wake me up. I took my puppy and left for good - and we're MUCH better now!! 

Please don't let it get to that point with your dogs, your kid or yourself. From what I've read so far, that's where it headed.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BellaPup said:


> I'm so sorry you are going through this!
> 
> I absolutely agree with everyone here - please talk to a professional who can help/guide you.
> 
> ...


I agree and I am sorry I didnt say it sooner but I think you need professional help on this one, tell them your situation, that you have a son and pets and want to leave with both. They will work to help you.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

***Trigger Warning***

I'm a birth Mother. I gave a baby boy up for adoption in 2011 to a family who otherwise could not have children of their own.

If I found out, that the home my son went to was abusive, I would be livid. 
When you become a parent - no matter HOW you became a parent - your responsibility is to that child. YOU are to keep that child SAFE, and if that means you can no longer be with your significant other because it is an abusive situation and you have to risk all, including your child, to ensure that YOU and your child are SAFE then that is what you need to do. 

I am not only a birth Mother, but a Mother of 2 with #3 due October - My ex was abusive, and not in your typical 'he beats me' type of way. I was raped repeatedly over the course of 2 years whether we were exclusive or not. I was forced into submission and forced to do things I did not want to do. Not only that - my ex was a child molester. He molested his niece when she was 4 years old, and I was pregnant by him. I risked ALL when I called him out, when I went to the police and told them what he was doing I was risking myself - because what if they don't believe me? and I was risking my child, because the police were obligated to have child protective services involved to make sure we were safe and away from this monster of a human being. 

It is not fair to Jaxxon or yourself to stay with someone who will ultimately hurt YOU and maybe one day him. Even if you have to put it ALL on the line, which believe me - takes incredible strength and is the scariest darn thing you will ever do - you have an obligation to protect that child at all costs. If this means the adoption agency takes him back, then unfortunately that's the reality of it. I could have lost my child too when I came forward with all my information, but that was a risk I had to take and in the end it paid off. I won our court case, he has NO access and his parental rights were terminated.

YOU are Jaxxon's parent, and YOU have an obligation to keep him SAFE. YOU cannot be afraid. You have a little person depending on you.

There are abuse shelters out there that will take in abused spouses as well as children/pets. Please locate one in your area and inform the adoption agency of what is really going on.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I do not want to hijack this thread, but would it possible if, in the future, a trigger warning be posted if something like rape or child molestation is going to be mentioned? I just find myself being triggered by reading stories of that nature, and I would like to avoid reading posts like that, if possible. A warning would help me skip over it.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> I do not want to hijack this thread, but would it possible if, in the future, a trigger warning be posted if something like rape or child molestation is going to be mentioned? I just find myself being triggered by reading stories of that nature, and I would like to avoid reading posts like that, if possible. A warning would help me skip over it.


My apologies. I completely understand. It kills me to be so open about this as it is still quite fresh in my mind - but this thread just... I needed to say something.
I have 11 years of abuse on me, starting when I was 8, and my post above was the tail end of it all. 

I've added a bolded 'Trigger Warning'


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

BostonBullMama said:


> My apologies


Oh, no need to apologize! You're not a mindreader. I just thought I would ask because it would help me in the future, should something of that nature be brought up again  Thank you for adding the warning for me (and others). I really appreciate it.

Edit: and you should be proud of being able to be so open about your life. It took me a very long time to be able to speak openly as well. I feel it is important to do so. Education is important, and this topic has been taboo for long enough. Survivors don't need to feel ashamed...they need to feel/be empowered. Thank you for opening up. I am sure it will help the op (who seems to really need support at this time). And thank you for including the warning, just so folks like me can decide whether or not it is something I/we can handle at this time.


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> I don't think you guys understand... I can't leave! I'm afraid the adoption agency will will take Jaxxon back and who knows where he will end up! I have to make this work for him. We have only had him for 6 months and are still checked on regularly.
> 
> I have no choice but to do this for my son


Dark-Bark, are you and Gavin part of a church where you can get into some counseling? I understand if church is not an option for you given your...situation. 

Maybe take Oliver and Jaxxon with you and have someone watch the baby at home? Also, are you still trying to get the dogs to stop barking by doing what I suggested? 

The technique might also work on Gavin if you use a rolling pin instead of a small ‘chicken-dance’ pinch on his back legs.


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## Snupe (Oct 20, 2014)

gwd said:


> Op, think about what you're asking her. You've got dogs that have alert barked for years and all of s sudden it's unacceptable because you have a child. You're not coming hear asking for advice because your dog is being aggressive toward your child................ your dog hasn't bitten your child, and yet you're entertaining the idea of rehoming because your kid is missing a little sleep????? My best advice is chill out. This is not the end of the world. I am upset for your family dynamics over your boyfriends reaction. He seems high strung and is trying to bully his way into winning this issue!!! Warning flags. There for me.


He's gotta watch out for his fam first. Family over everything, bruh. You love dogs and so do I...We are on a DOG FORUM after all haha... but if the dog is messing with his family, the pup has GOT to either learn how to not bark as much, or it HAS to go.


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## namedadogindiana (Oct 14, 2014)

dark, have you considered fighting fire with fire re: Gavin? Give a bully a bloody nose, and he thinks twice about getting physical next time.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Snupe said:


> He's gotta watch out for his fam first. Family over everything, bruh. You love dogs and so do I...We are on a DOG FORUM after all haha... but if the dog is messing with his family, the pup has GOT to either learn how to not bark as much, or it HAS to go.


Really "bruh"... have you just skipped over the part where he's also involved in an abusive relationship... :doh:


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

namedadogindiana said:


> dark, have you considered fighting fire with fire re: Gavin? Give a bully a bloody nose, and he thinks twice about getting physical next time.


No. Please don't do that. That's dumb.


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## namedadogindiana (Oct 14, 2014)

chimunga said:


> No. Please don't do that. That's dumb.


Why is it dumb, exactly? It's worked in bars, playgrounds, and battlefields for, oh, the past couple of millenia.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

namedadogindiana said:


> Why is it dumb, exactly? It's worked in bars, playgrounds, and battlefields for, oh, the past couple of millenia.


And a family is none of those things.

That's how my dad's side of the family did things and it's taken YEARS for everyone to go from straight up hating each other to tolerating.

No. Your advice isn't just stupid. It's dangerous and will only create more bad blood and violence.


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## namedadogindiana (Oct 14, 2014)

BigLittle said:


> And a family is none of those things.
> 
> That's how my dad's side of the family did things and it's taken YEARS for everyone to go from straight up hating each other to tolerating.
> 
> No. Your advice isn't just stupid. It's dangerous and will only create more bad blood and violence.


OK, if you say so. LOL


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

namedadogindiana said:


> Why is it dumb, exactly? It's worked in bars, playgrounds, and battlefields for, oh, the past couple of millenia.


If the OP was a woman, would you suggest that? "He's abusive? Just hit him back!"


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## namedadogindiana (Oct 14, 2014)

chimunga said:


> If the OP was a woman, would you suggest that? "He's abusive? Just hit him back!"


Of course not. Because that would be dumb. There is a huge physical mismatch in the vast majority of heterosexual relationships. Not so much in a same sex situation. They're men. Let them settle it like men.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

namedadogindiana said:


> Of course not. Because that would be dumb. There is a huge physical mismatch in the vast majority of heterosexual relationships. Not so much in a same sex situation. They're men. Let them settle it like men.


 And you know there is no serious mismatch in this situation? Are you god?


namedadogindiana said:


> OK, if you say so. LOL


 Nice response, sugar. I don't know if you would be so tough about it if you got to see your dad, aunt, and grandfather nearly coming to blows at every family event as a young child... because they want to fight fire with fire! To heck with the crying 5 and 8 year olds begging you to stop! Who cares if your nieces and nephews and grandkids will never completely trust you again! You need to be the man and put their parents in their place! Right? WRONG.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I really don't think anybody would agree that violence solves violence... your advice is poor and I sincerely hope OP see's the flaws in it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Standing up to a bully is not about size.... Or physical strength.... It is an emotional and mental thing... And someone being abused or bullied is not in a mental state to stand the aggressor.....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well this has taken an odd turn.


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

BigLittle said:


> And you know there is no serious mismatch in this situation? Are you god?
> 
> Nice response, sugar. I don't know if you would be so tough about it if you got to see your dad, aunt, and grandfather nearly coming to blows at every family event as a young child... because they want to fight fire with fire! To heck with the crying 5 and 8 year olds begging you to stop! Who cares if your nieces and nephews and grandkids will never completely trust you again! You need to be the man and put their parents in their place! Right? WRONG.


I agree with you that getting physical might not be the best approach but he could have a point for two men in a relationship. Men aren't like women and maybe his current 'partner' would respond to something other than blind acquiescence and rehoming the dogs just to placate. That is something a woman would have done in the 50's. 

He isn't married and he doesn't have as much to lose by trying to defend himself, his dogs, or his adopted child. If he decides to give up the dogs, is the child next? How far should he go to placate an abusive 'partner'?


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

namedadogindiana said:


> dark, have you considered fighting fire with fire re: Gavin? Give a bully a bloody nose, and he thinks twice about getting physical next time.


Because this is what a young child needs to see and grow up with...

Terrible advice.

Edit: nevermind the fact that this could put the op, his dogs, or his child in a ton of danger.


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## namedadogindiana (Oct 14, 2014)

BostonBullMama said:


> I really don't think anybody would agree that violence solves violence... your advice is poor and I sincerely hope OP see's the flaws in it.


I don't know why anyone would DISagree with the notion. Violence has been solving violence since the dawn of human civilization. You may find that option -- and that's all this is, is an option -- to be distasteful, but your personal preference is not the sole arbiter of efficacy.

Thing is, I'm not so arrogant as to think my way is the only way. I'm offering a viable remedy to the OP. He's an adult, and can make his own decisions. He can decide what is right for him. Not you or I.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ollie Monster said:


> He isn't married and he doesn't have as much to lose by trying to defend himself, his dogs, or his adopted child. If he decides to give up the dogs, is the child next? How far should he go to placate an abusive 'partner'?


He shouldn't placate an abusive partner. He should leave an abusive partner.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

namedadogindiana said:


> Thing is, I'm not so arrogant as to think my way is the only way. I'm offering a viable remedy to the OP. He's an adult, and can make his own decisions. He can decide what is right for him. Not you or I.


That's all fine and dandy, but there's a very young CHILD in the picture. You know what watching parents have fistfights in the living room will do to Jaxxon? He's WILL have trust issues and possibly a little side of emotional trauma.

It clearly doesn't bother you that me watching violence as a young child ruined my trust in my grandpa and aunt... I still can't put myself at 100% ease around them.

He needs leave. Simple as that. Violence is only going to make things worse for the kid. If he's going to defend himself with violence, it should be after he leaves if the partner pursues him.


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## Ollie Monster (Oct 23, 2014)

sassafras said:


> He shouldn't placate an abusive partner. He should leave an abusive partner.


I don't disagree at all. I said as much. But if he can manage the situation by not just accepting the physical abuse or leaving (or worse letting his babies be rehomed). He should consider defending himself and what he expects. Men with men is strange enough to me that I have no idea what to say beyond that men react differently to challenges than women. Him putting his foot down and being willing to physically challenge his 'partner' might be what his relationship needs. 

Men fight for dominance. He needs to try to take control of his life before giving up what he works for. His 'partner' is no better than him.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Ollie Monster said:


> I don't disagree at all. I said as much. But if he can manage the situation by not just accepting the physical abuse or leaving (or worse letting his babies be rehomed). He should consider defending himself and what he expects. Men with men is strange enough to me that I have no idea what to say beyond that men react differently to challenges than women. Him putting his foot down and being willing to physically challenge his 'partner' might be what his relationship needs.
> 
> Men fight for dominance. He needs to try to take control of his life before giving up what he works for. His 'partner' is no better than him.


We're not talking about two buddies who are in a disagreement over what bar to go to. We are talking about an abuser physically abusing his partner. Apples to oranges. Throwing a punch will only escalate the situation...unless he is an MMA fighter and can guarantee himself a TKO to use to leave. What the op needs to do is seek professional help to create a safe escape plan for he, his son, and his dogs.


Think about it this way: someone comes on here wanting us to diagnose their dog's medical issue rather than taking the dog to a vet. Everyone here would do the responsible thing and tell that person to seek out professional help because offering the wrong diagnosis could be very dangerous to that dog. Same thing for the op. The advice of fighting back to teach your partner a lesson could end very badly. Irresponsible to recommend such advice based on the limited information we, as just random people on the internet, have any because the consequences could be very, very bad.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

wtf? A victim of physical abuse should retaliate against his abuser? One whose supposed to be in a loving relationship with him? You cannot seriously be so blind to the differences between an abusive significant other and two guys getting into a brawl at a bar. I sincerely hope OP doesn't heed that advice and gets serious help from someone. Same sex relationships should not be violent, and certainly should be held to no different standards than a heterosexual couple. OPs relationship sounds toxic and hopefully he and the son can get out of there. The dogs are not the issue here.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Ollie Monster said:


> The technique might also work on Gavin if you use a rolling pin instead of a small ‘chicken-dance’ pinch on his back legs.


..... A rolling pin.... I don't even.... I think your name fits you pretty well if you are willing to abuse your dogs by smacking them with a rolling pin or biting a dog to get them to do something. I mean this advice is so bad it makes my mind just freeze in the "WTF" status. Worst idea ever!



namedadogindiana said:


> dark, have you considered fighting fire with fire re: Gavin? Give a bully a bloody nose, and he thinks twice about getting physical next time.


No wait, this is the worst idea ever! Yes lets hit the guy who already is known for his temper and having things get out of hand AND ESCALATE IT MORE! 

Have you ever been in an abusive relationship? I tried to stand up to my Ex and it ended badly. I was lucky that my Ex was skinny enough that it was an even match and I was smart enough to know when to back down before someone got hurt. You could end up extremely hurt, even dead if you try something like that with someone with an abusive personality. If your unlucky you'll be hurt and something horrible will happen to the objects you love instead. The only thing you can do in an abusive relationship (and yes OP I do think your relationship is abusive) is to find a way out. I ended up packing my bags in 2 hours and moving back home with my parents. My back up plan was to move in with a friend until I could find a better place to live with my dogs but my parents were the better option. Get out of there and move on, you, your child, and your dogs will be better off.


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## Pia (Dec 17, 2014)

Darkmoon said:


> ..... A rolling pin.... I don't even.... I think your name fits you pretty well if you are willing to abuse your dogs by smacking them with a rolling pin or biting a dog to get them to do something. I mean this advice is so bad it makes my mind just freeze in the "WTF" status. Worst idea ever!


Gavin is the partner's name, not the dog's.





Darkmoon said:


> You could end up extremely hurt, even dead if you try something like that with someone with an abusive personality. If your unlucky you'll be hurt and something horrible will happen to the objects you love instead.


This. Don't experiment with a violent partner if you are not absolutely sure you are able to defend yourself. Especially not with a child in the house. The outcome may be tragic. And even if you "win", you've lost anyway as there is nothing to win - violence in relationship does not create true respect and love.


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## Pia (Dec 17, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> I'm truly in a tough spot


Unfortunately you might be.
Did you Guys go through tests and interviews prior to adoption, in regard to stability of the environment you can offer your child?
In this case, I would advice you to do as much search as possible and to find out how far you can go before the agency does not consider you as stable enough to be adoptive parent. I mean, if you should decide to leave your partner, or talk him to anger management therapy, how is the adoption agency going to view this in regards to the picture of the two of you they got from tests and interviews. As you wrote in one of your posts, they tend to be very strict about the child's home and relations between family members, i.e. regular check up visits. A sudden change in the course may put them in doubt about your previous answers. You probably know all this.
There have to be options for you without the risk of losing your child. I would take this as a starting point, finding out whom it is safe talking to, and avoiding any moves that scream "drama". Adoption agencies have usually little understanding for drama, also tend to overlook important details like who is the abuser. I've seen this happen in my job as interpreter for Child Services in my country, would advise you to consult someone who knows the system where you live.

As for the dogs, is it possible to avoid them ending up in a pound? Are there any foster homes in your area?
It may take months to rehome 2 adult dogs and you may not have that much time with Gavin's escalating annoyance of them.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

The sexism in this thread is great. Just because the relationship is between two men doesn't mean we need to duke it out. Men have emotions too. And dominance between humans, really?

OP: Please find a way out for yourself, the dogs, and Jaxxon.

Some possibly helpful links:

http://www.thehotline.org/

http://www.loveisrespect.org/


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ollie Monster said:


> I don't disagree at all. I said as much. But if he can manage the situation by not just accepting the physical abuse or leaving (or worse letting his babies be rehomed). He should consider defending himself and what he expects. Men with men is strange enough to me that I have no idea what to say beyond that men react differently to challenges than women. Him putting his foot down and being willing to physically challenge his 'partner' might be what his relationship needs.
> 
> Men fight for dominance. He needs to try to take control of his life before giving up what he works for. His 'partner' is no better than him.


You have a very strange outlook on relationships, and this is possibly the worst advice I have ever read on this forum.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> The time Gavin hit cooper at my appt i almost drew the line... And the first time he slapped me I was DONE! But he went and got help and has been better!


You weren't "DONE" if you took him back. 

With an abusive parent your kid is going to end up abused, an abuser, or both.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

What. The actual farfalle. Is going on. With this thread?!

Seriously, people? Oh, you're getting abused - your partner has anger issues? Beat him up with a rolling pin! Then EVERYTHING will be okay and sunshines and puppy poots! Added bonus - your kid will learn how to fight and beat people up to solve all his problems! 

Ridiculous. OP, you've gotten some great advice that doesn't include more violence. Please listen to the people who offered that. And if you would ever like to talk/vent/whatever in private, I'm a very good listener and wouldn't ever mind a private message! Sometimes it's really good just to talk it out. But please please please think about this situation and get some help.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Ollie Monster said:


> I don't disagree at all. I said as much. But if he can manage the situation by not just accepting the physical abuse or leaving (or worse letting his babies be rehomed). He should consider defending himself and what he expects. Men with men is strange enough to me that I have no idea what to say beyond that men react differently to challenges than women. Him putting his foot down and being willing to physically challenge his 'partner' might be what his relationship needs.
> 
> Men fight for dominance. He needs to try to take control of his life before giving up what he works for. His 'partner' is no better than him.


what in the heck am i reading right now? you're advising him to get in a fistfight with his partner (no quotes because gay relationships are legitimate and you need to open your eyes)?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This thread has gotten WAY out of control and too many participants are going to get banned if this continues.

The OP has gotten some good advice and some truly horrific advice. It's time for him to take what he can use and leave the rest.


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