# Vibrating dog collars to aid recall



## Iamche (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi all, 

My mix-breed dog (1/4 Bernese Mountain dog, 1/4 Friese Stabij and half-who-knows-what but probably some retriever somewhere) is five months old. He's very smart and well trained and obedient inside the house.

Outside it's a different matter. He seems to have very selective hearing. If there are no other dogs around, he obeys around 85% of the time. 

When there is another dog around he does not listen to me at all. 

If he is off the leash, he will run off to play with the other dog and nothing will stop him. He won't come when called and even if I am standing next to him he won't sit or come to me. 

I've tried training discs and food (he will do *anything* for food usually) in addition to screaming at him but nothing works. I never punish him when I finally catch up with him as I do not want him to associate that coming to me/me coming to him is a bad thing.

As I need to intervene as he is dashing off towards a busy road to play with another dog, I am considering buying a vibrating collar. I do not feel right using electric shocks so I thought that a vibrating collar would be the next best thing.

Can anyone share any training tips or suggestions regarding this method of training?

I live in a city and this behavior needs to be curbed as soon as possible. As he gets bigger, other dog owners are not happy that he is jumping all over their little dogs (he's not aggressive but he's boisterous) and one of these days he's going to bounce all over an aggressive bigger dog and get hurt.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

You need to train every command in as many new places, and with as many distractions as you possibly can. A buzzer will probably not help much until you do that anyway.

A vibe collar can be a useful tool, but some dogs react very negatively to them. They are not necessarily "kinder" than a e-collar. Get a good one with multiple levels of vibration (intensity and duration).


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Why is the pup loose to be able to run up to other dogs?
He has selective hearing because he's an adolescent who isn't fully trained yet. Recall training and manners training takes a lot of work and time but is so worth it. I would not put a dog who is simply "happy to meet everyone" on an ecollar (vibe or not) until you have done basic training with him. You may bugger up his friendliness. 
Look up the REally Reliable Recall booklet and DVD on how to teach a recall and understand that outside is HIGHLY distracting for young dogs and that the reward for coming to you must be really awesome and the response must be conditioned with lots of repetitions under lower distractions. You are expecting too much too soon.


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## Iamche (Feb 1, 2010)

Hi Maggi, 

He's off the leash because there's no other way for him to get exercise - I live in a city and there are only a few places he can run. Of course, he's not off the lead all the time!

Thanks for your advise. I'm going to try for the next week using cheese as a bribe/reward and see how that works.

I have done basic training with him (together with a professional dog trainer) but we worked mainly inside the house. 

I do tend to expect a lot from him as he is very smart (he could do 'in your bed' and 'give paw' at nine weeks old!) so I am quite frustrated that he's not getting this one as quickly.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Just so we're clear: your dog is behaving perfectly normally. Train a dog in the house, and it all goes to pot once he passes the threshold. Train a dog in the fenced yard, and he becomes "deaf" at the park. Whether the sights, sounds, and smells of the larger world overwhelm the trained responses, or the dog just doesn't understand that the commands have meaning outside the training area, no one knows for sure. I strongly suspect the latter.

A dog is not trained to a command until the training has been generalized in some number of different places. Let's say 10 different environments. Don't let the dog off the line until his recall is solid in many different places. Use a 50 ft. or 100 ft line while training at the park. Train it every day, and train it with all due seriousness. An untrained dog off leash is a tragedy looking for a place to happen.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Iamche said:


> Hi Maggi,
> 
> He's off the leash because there's no other way for him to get exercise - I live in a city and there are only a few places he can run. Of course, he's not off the lead all the time!
> 
> ...


Time to 'take it on the road' then. Generalizing commands and cues in different environments (like MM said) is essential. Rewarding compliance is not bribing though a lure may be necessary in some instances of training certain skills. (not recall though). Rewards are not bribes, if done correctly.

So. I live in a city as well. Do you have designated off leash parks? Are any of them fenced?
He can have freedom to run in fenced areas but any unfenced, until you've built a good recall, are a high risk (not only for the dog, but for your training). 
The trick is to only use your recall command when you are pretty dang sure that he is going to respond..otherwise use whatever else you need to do..running away, doing a silly dance, going and getting him (hopefully without the "chase game") to get him to come to you. The recall command needs to be conditioned really really well before you use it under high distraction. It is also really important that you premack it. What this means is that you get him to come to you (without the cue for now), reward him and then let him go play again by letting him go and saying a release cue "go play!". One of the biggest mistakes people do is only calling the dog when they are leaving the fun. You want the dog to realize that coming to you is rewarding AND that it doesn't necessarily means playtime is over. You are using what motivates the pup to reinforce the behaviour. Practicing this a LOT will help to build a dog that is HAPPY to come to you repeatedly. 

Having a smart dog (which you think you have) can make training harder, not easier...because they can take advantage of your mistakes by learning your unintentional behaviour chains....


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

From personal experience, my dog reacts very negatively to the vibration on her e-collar. She hates it. It is way, way worse to her than the very low level of shock we give her with her e-collar. The shock just breaks her concentration, that's it.

How old is your dog?

Every time your dog blows you off to run and greet another dog, you are essentially teaching him that recall = greet other dog when you see one. He is self-reinforcing, and there is nothing you can do about it if you can't enforce the command. 

We had the same problem with our dog. We tried many, many things with (IMO) a great deal of consistency on our part, but being a bird dog she would turn off her ears when she smelled or saw something interesting. 

Work your dog on a long line. As Marsh Muppet said, get a 50' or 100' line and your dog can still run and play uninhibited, but if he decides to take off you will be IN CONTROL.

We did eventually decide to try an e-collar with our dog as we are training her for hunting and we felt we needed the extra level of control while in the field. The thing is, it is a serious tool (serious does not mean cruel) and needs to be treated as such. If you decide to go this route, even if you only use the vibrate (which as I said can be worse than shock to a dog) you need to do a LOT of research first. Using this tool improperly can create a fearful dog, confused dog, and even angry dog if you stim him at the wrong time. Also, your dog needs to understand the command before you shock, so you can't just slap the collar on and shock him when you want him to come back... he could get scared and run away instead.

Good luck!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Squeeker said:


> If you decide to go this route, even if you only use the vibrate (which as I said can be worse than shock to a dog) you need to do a LOT of research first. Using this tool improperly can create a fearful dog, confused dog, and even angry dog if you stim him at the wrong time. Also, your dog needs to understand the command before you shock, so you can't just slap the collar on and shock him when you want him to come back... he could get scared and run away instead.
> 
> Good luck!


Remote collars are for enforcing the known commands. If the vibe collars is aversive to the dog (yet another thing the dog gets to decide) it can have several undesirable effects if the foundation work was not properly done. If it is not aversive to the dog, he may learn to ignore it the same way he ignores your voice. Getting a dog to ignore you is easy enough without spending $300 - $600 on electronics.

The vibe can be useful for signaling a dog in situations where he cannot hear your voice or whistle, but that means the dog is well trained without the collar.

Dogs are more than simple I/O devices, but they do best when training conveys absolute clarity and predictability. As Squeeker said, confusing the dog won't make anything better.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Short and to the point, there is not a collar made that will stop your 5 month old pup from running off that would not destroy your pup. Start on-lead training and when done with that do some more on-lead training and when done with that do some more on-lead training. I think by now you should know what I'm saying. This is a young puppy with a fragile ego. On-lead work good off-lead work bad.

I can put an e-collar on dog that will stop him from running off, only problem is it may start and stop a few other things. It could stop a pleasant personality growth and start a severe scared to death problem. 

In your favor is that you did not say an e-shock collar just a vibration collar. (I didn't know there was such a vibration only collar as I've never used one)


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

At 5 months, you are behind the curve.

You should have already been doing training sessions outside, and doing them in slowly increasing levels of distractions by now.

I agree with the suggestions to get the long line, and start practicing in places outside starting with places with less distraction and practice practice practice.


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