# Is Purina Puppy Chow a good food for young Border Collie?



## Ateenta (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm getting my B.C. puppy tomorrow, and today at Wal-Mart I bought a bag of Purina Puppy Chow Healthy Life Nutrition. Is this a good food for a 12 week old Border Collie puppy? Would another brand be better? Lots of people have reccomended Science Diet...but I can't afford it(I'm 15...not exactly the Age of Steady Income...if there ever IS one) Purina is what seems to be the most common puppy food. What are other people here feeding their medium breed active puppies?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It depends what you want from a dog food. Certainly many dogs have grown up and lived their entire lives on Purina, and most of them do fine. I would recommend it over any of the other brands commonly available at grocery stores. 

But....the first ingredient is corn. You might be OK with this. I prefer to feed my dogs a meat-based food, plus corn is a common allergen for dogs, so you'd have to watch out for that. The second ingredient is chicken by-product meal. Nothing wrong with by-products, really, but the by-products are not well regulated, so this could contain anything. I prefer to avoid by-products in pet foods. 

Some affordable corn and by-product-free foods are Diamond Naturals (Kirkland if you have a CostCo membership), and Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lover's Soul. Canidae is not terribly expensive, either.


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## Bellasmom (Aug 14, 2008)

I feed Purina Puppy Chow to my two puppies as finances are really tight. They do perfectly fine on it. Better than they did on the premium foods I had tried them on. They have had no loose stools since being on it and have a good appetite.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I'm feeding Purina One right now, and Purina One puppy for the puppy. I've never had any issues with it, in fact, results wise, it's the best I've tried, even though the ingredients don't _sound_ too yummy. I have a hard time keeping weight on my BC, and PO is one of the few foods that I don't have to feed him buckets of to keep him looking good. I like the One over the Dog Chow because it has slightly more meat and no added sugar, but it is twice the price of the Dog Chow, if finances are a concern.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sheltiemom said:


> I like the One over the Dog Chow because it has slightly more meat and no added sugar.


Does Dog Chow have added sugar? It's not in the ingredient list on petfooddirect (though I know they aren't totally up-to-date). Added colors, yes (which I don't like, either), but not added sugar.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Does Dog Chow have added sugar? It's not in the ingredient list on petfooddirect (though I know they aren't totally up-to-date). Added colors, yes (which I don't like, either), but not added sugar.



No, there is no white sugar in the regular Puppy Chow, colors, yes, although way down on the list. That's actually the only qualm I have with Puppy Chow - the colors are so unnecessary. 
BTW, corn is not an allergen, and is a great source of digestable protein & thus far, I actually prefer feeds with corn ... seems to do wonders for the coat! 
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/the_corn_myth.htm
To answer the OP, Puppy Chow is a great feed, I wouldn't hesitate to use or recommend it. One of my litters this year was raised on it from weaning, the bitch was on it during her entire pregnancy. Never had such an easy whelping & it was perfect for growing and keeping lean muscle on my puppers. They never went off their feed or had diarrhea, upset stomachs. Just a very good, albeit no frills food


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Does Dog Chow have added sugar? It's not in the ingredient list on petfooddirect (though I know they aren't totally up-to-date). Added colors, yes (which I don't like, either), but not added sugar.


Yup, you're right, no added sugar...I must have been thinking of the colors. That makes me feel better that it doesn't in case I ever need to use it.


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

I've raised dogs who ate everything from Dollar General store brand food to the one I have now who eats a grain-free meat-based kibble. Some dogs with food allergies will need a special diet. Most dogs will do fine on whatever you feed them. They are opportunistic omnivores. Right now, money isn't a huge concern and I don't mind feeding Ginger a higher-quality kibble. But should money become tighter, the dog's standard of living decreases before my children's will. KWIM?

Anyway, I've raised a beautiful Labrador who ate Purina Puppy Chow and then Dog Chow her whole life. She was 11 when she died, and yes, it was due to melamine tainted food. A lot of brands, both generic and premium, were affected since only a few plants churn out the kibbles for multiple brands. The affected grain products ended up in a lot of foods. She was healthy and energetic right up until the very end. I don't blame Purina. I blame the quality control at the manufacturing facility.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

like sheltiemom i feed Purina One and used the Puppy P.O. for the pups.....one thing i did do w/ my pups was starting at about 4-5 mo went to 1/2 and 1/2 of puppy/adult and by the time they were 8 mo had them on adult food.....this was at my vets recommendation....it slows the growth just a bit and helps the bone/joints/muscle all keep up w/ each other....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

dansamy said:


> Anyway, I've raised a beautiful Labrador who ate Purina Puppy Chow and then Dog Chow her whole life. She was 11 when she died, and yes, it was due to melamine tainted food.


Was Purina affected by the melamine problem? I NEVER once saw it on any of the lists. In fact, I was told it was one of the VERY few dog food companies not affected. Scary.


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

She went into acute renal failure and died about a month before reports of tainted grain products started showing up on the net. We all just assumed it was the food when we started seeing the reports of tainted foods and the list getting longer. I never really looked to see if Purina was on the list. The only thing she ate her whole life was Puppy Chow and then Dog Chow.


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## Bellasmom (Aug 14, 2008)

I just looked this up to make sure I had it right and according to what Purina says no Purina brand dry pet foods were affected by the recall, only wet foods such as Alpo Prime Cuts and Mighty Dog Pouch Products. So Puppy Chow and Dog Chow were not tainted with melamine.


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

Then it wasn't the food that caused it. I wonder what did then? Not that it really matters now since she's gone.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Are you buying the food yourself or are your parents helping out? 

I guess that I am a pretty hard core person about not feeding my dogs corn based products. *Dogs are carnivores.* Just because they are able to adapt and survive on an omnivorous diet does not mean that is the best diet for them. The assumption that dogs are natural omnivores remains to be proven, whereas the truth about dogs being natural carnivores is very well-supported by the evidence available to us.

Take a look inside your dogs mouth. What kind of teeth do they have? Those huge impressive teeth are *designed for grabbing, ripping, tearing, shredding, and shearing meat.They are not equipped with large flat molars for grinding up plant matter*. Their molars are pointed and situated in a scissors bite (along with the rest of their teeth) that powerfully disposes of meat, bone, and hide. Carnivores are equipped with a peculiar set of teeth that includes the presence of carnassial teeth: the fourth upper premolar and first lower molar.

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

*May I ask you, what about a dog makes you believe it is an omnivore?*

Take a look at the list of ingredients in Purina One:

_ 
Lamb, brewers rice, corn gluten meal, oat meal, fish meal (source of DHA), whole grain corn, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), poultry by-product meal, calcium phosphate, animal digest, potassium chloride, salt, caramel color, calcium carbonate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, zinc sulfate, choline chloride, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, copper sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.M-4163_

And take a look at the list of ingredients in a High Quality food, like Wellness Core:

_Deboned Turkey, Deboned Chicken, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potato, Tomato Pomace, Natural Chicken Flavor, Canola Oil, Chicken Liver, Salmon Oil, Flaxseed, Carrots, Sweet Potatoes, Kale, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Apples, Blueberries, Vitamins & Minerals, Chicory Root Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus Fermentation Products, Rosemary Extract._

I understand you are on a tight income, being 15. In all actuality, premium foods cost slightly more in the long run. You end up feeding your dog about 1.5 to 2 times the amount of "Grocery Store Brands" than you would a premium brand. You pay more for the bag initially, but its going to last you longer and your dog is going to be getting a better nutrition. 

Take a look at it, let me know if you have any questions. The explanation I've given should be pretty self explanitory. Good luck with your new puppy!!


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Nallah06 said:


> Are you buying the food yourself or are your parents helping out?
> 
> I guess that I am a pretty hard core person about not feeding my dogs corn based products. *Dogs are carnivores.* Just because they are able to adapt and survive on an omnivorous diet does not mean that is the best diet for them. The assumption that dogs are natural omnivores remains to be proven, whereas the truth about dogs being natural carnivores is very well-supported by the evidence available to us.
> 
> ...


If dogs are carnivores, how are potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, apples, blueberries, broccoli, kale, spinnach, etc, etc, any better for them than corn and rice? Just something I've always wondered about...


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Good question. 

Corn & Rice are grains. They are used as fillers in "grocery store brands" to take the place of important protiens from meat. Thats what makes them cheap. I understand that Premium foods are putting in vegetables & Fruits when dogs are not omnivores, but they are further down the list than you see corn or rice are. They are not using them as fillers. 

Fruits & Vegetables may not be something that dogs normally eat, but they sure aren't going to harm them in any way. Ask some of the people who feed their dogs homecooked meals, I would bet that 95% of them add veggies and fruit into their dogs meal AFTER meat. Meat has to be the main source for nutrition. 

Here's an example of what Wellness CORE puts into their dog food and a breif explanation why:

*More Meat from Only the Highest Quality, Human-Grade Sources

80% more meat than traditional dog foods that are formulated with grains, while still controlling mineral and fat levels! 

5 Different Animal Protein Sources - USDA grade, Deboned Turkey & Chicken and with high quality (low Ash) Turkey & Chicken Meals and Chicken Liver 

Grain-Free and Lower Carbohydrates

100% Grain Free 

Contains 35% less carbs than traditional diets 

Potatoes and Sweet Potatoes provide energy giving carbs and help keep the kibble firm 

Carefully Regulated Mineral Levels to Support Overall Metabolic Function

We control minerals by using expensive lower ash, higher-quality meats that are carefully chosen and screened for the calcium and phosphorus levels 

High levels of Calcium and Phosphorus interfere with the absorption of trace minerals like Zinc and Iron. Over time, this can lead to deficiencies and result in poor growth rates, skin lesions, and red blood cell levels and many other health conditions 

We guarantee the maximum levels of calcium and phosphorus on every bag, unlike competitors who either do not list these numbers in the GA or simply put minimum amounts where actual levels can fluctuate above AAFCO maximums 

Preventative Health Benefits 

Fish & Flax Omega Blend provide a rich supply of Omega 3 & 6 fatty acids from salmon oil, flax and canola oil. This blend nutritionally supports healthy skin to produce a glossy coat at guaranteed levels on every bag. 

Herbs, Botanicals, Fruits & Greens provide Phyto-Chemicals, Micro-Nutrients and Antioxidants 

Living Food - Our ActiCoat System applies living, heat-sensitive Probiotic micro-organisms after cooking to support digestive health at a guaranteed levels on every bag 

Hip & Joint Health – Glucosamine and Chondroitin to help support long term bone and joint health at guaranteed levels on every bag 

Incredible Tasty! 

Real meat provides the all natural mouth-watering taste that dogs love 

Designed for Everyday Feeding 

Carefully controlling the levels of fat, calories and minerals support the most important part of an animal...the CORE and allow the pet parent to safely feed everyday 

Great for dogs of all lifestyles: for working and highly active dogs or dogs with a more sedentary lifestyle. 

Comprehensive “NO” List 

No Meat By-products, No Wheat or Wheat Gluten, No Soy, No Dairy, No Corn, No Artificial Colors, Flavors or Preservatives *

Does this answer your question??


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> Corn & Rice are grains. They are used as fillers in "grocery store brands" to take the place of important protiens from meat. Thats what makes them cheap. I understand that Premium foods are putting in vegetables & Fruits when dogs are not omnivores, but they are further down the list than you see corn or rice are. They are not using them as fillers.



Your logic makes no sense. It's ok to add friuts & veggies, but not grains? Hmmm, what about the fact that veggies are urinary alkalizers, and too much will disrupt the normal Ph level of a dog's urine? I would say that adding needless veggies and herbals into a dog food can do more harm than good. 
Understand that grains are not added to take away from meat proteins in a good food. Dogs are not obligate carnivores and should not have all meat diets, and most do require the nutrients found in grains. It's called balance. Mostly meat, some grains. An example of a filler ingredient would be ingredient splitting, so for instance, you would have the same ingredient pop up 2-3x on the same list. For instance, corn meal, ground corn, corn gluten all within the first 5 ingredients. THAT is a filler. Using a meat meal or a meat and a grain in addition to that is not using filelrs simply because you happen to think oatmeal or barley looks better than corn or rice!!! 

Ground corn happens to be one of the most digestable, nutrient dense grains which is loaded with B vitamins and lutein. I am a fan of ground corn in dog food because of the improvement in coats I note when using feeds with corn vs. feeds that have no corn. Rice is digestable as well, also contains B vitamins, and is by no means a filler in and of itself. Both corn/rice are VERY low down on the list of food allergens, so low in fact, that "carniverous" dogs are more likely to be allergic to beef and egg  There are too many prevailing myths regarding certain dog food ingredients which have absolutely no basis in fact. Most of it is spread through the rumor mill by competing companies, and should be taken with a grain of salt. Do your own independant research, and that does not involve looking through sites such as DogFoodAnalysis.



> Here's an example of what Wellness CORE puts into their dog food and a breif explanation why:



Here's why I don't believe Wellness CORE, for all it's fancy ingredients, is a better food than Puppy Chow. Because the potatoes it uses are pure starch and raise the blood glucose level higher than corn and rice combined! Potatoes cause spikes, and inevitable crashes in blood sugar. Hypoglycemia is one life threatening problem such an abrubt blood sugar crash can cause. Ask my two dogs who both had hypoglycemic fits on Wellness CORE how much better a food it is than Purina ... 

http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/the_corn_myth.htm
_"The fact is Human Grade #1 corn is one of the best natural sources of coat and skin conditioners like Omega 6, and it is low in gluten. It has an overall digestibility is 90% and carbohydrate digestibility is 99%. 
High quality whole corn is an excellent carbohydrate that is "used" as a carbohydrate source, not counted as protein source and it is not listed first on the ingredient panel. The fact is, legitimate research shows whole corn, to be considered very low on the list of foods that cause allergic reactions. 
Before jumping on the bandwagon against corn used as a carbohydrate in a diet, you need to understand there is one cause for allergic reactions and that is a problem with an immune system."_


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

I still don't buy it. 

Corn is Corn. Its a grain. What part of being a carnivore involves eating grains??

It may be true that your dogs have improved skin/coat on the cheap stuff, but thats certainly not the case for mine. Never has been. Their coats are dry & flakey and lack the lusture they do now. They are also less energetic and don't seem to have the lean muscular physique they do now. 

I contribute 95% of Nallah's appearance to her food. Health shines from the inside out. 
*
Please explain to me why you would want to feed your dog something SO HIGH in content of something they wouldnt normally eat?? *

It just dosn't make sense to me. 

Maybe I need to add a link to another article to better explain exactly what these nonsense ingredients are doing to your dog. 

*Fruits and Vegetables are there for a reason. They're adding nutritional value and supplementing the diet. They are not FILLERS or meant to take the place of meat. TAKE A LOOK AT HOW HIGH UP ON THE LIST CORN IS. *

Please explain to me how this makes any sense to you...I'm really at a loss.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

"In all actuality, premium foods cost slightly more in the long run"

I think that should read slightly less in the long run.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think corn in a dog food is any worse than any other grain (except Toby has reactions to food with corn in it), but I do hate to see it first on the list. But, as I've said before, all the dogs I know on Purina Dog/Puppy Chow are doing well, so it's certainly not the worst food out there. If cost is an issue, that's the best of the grocery store bunch.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> I still don't buy it.
> 
> Corn is Corn. Its a grain. What part of being a carnivore involves eating grains??



What is the problem with grains? Most grains are a great source of B vitamins that are otherwise difficult to come by in an all meat carniverous diet, save for liver, however, it's not wise to feed liver on a daily basis. Ground corn is no different than oatmeal. They are both nutritionally dense, easily digestable complex carbohydrates that are very unlikely to be a source of food allergy. 
Dogs are not obligate carnivores, meaning their bodies do manufacture certain amino acids, so these amino acids do not need to be supplied in the diet. A true carnivore can only survive on meat due to the fact that they literally starve on other food sources. In that sense, dogs are not true (obligate) carnivores, which is not to say meat should not be the bulk of their diet. Their nutritional requirements are varied from that of a true carnivore & they do have some need for the added energy, nutrients supplies by grains. 
Again, corn is no better or worse than any other grain. It's not inherently a filler ingredient as it does contribute nutritionally to the product it's used in. The food in question, Puppy Chow, even contains whole grain corn as the #1 ingredient, and it's STILL a good food for growing pups  If you were going by ingredients alone, it might not seem to appealing, but it's one of the best puppy foods available in that it consistantly works well and does have an extensive amount of research behind it. 




> It may be true that your dogs have improved skin/coat on the cheap stuff, but thats certainly not the case for mine. Never has been. Their coats are dry & flakey and lack the lusture they do now. They are also less energetic and don't seem to have the lean muscular physique they do now.



Food allergy is not the only reason a dog would have a reaction to a particular brand, and most of the "itchies" are blamed on allergies, when in fact, it is just an intolerance to the feed itself. Is more likely to be deficiency of a certain vitamin(s) or fatty acid that particular dog requires more of. Keep in mind though, that even allergic reactions are immune system problems, and that's genetic ... I had a young pup last year with bouts of colits. It definitely improved on certain foods, especially raw and low grain foods. However, it wasn't the food that was the issue, I wasn't feeding grabage that was making the dog's colitis flare up. It was the dog herself who had the underlying issue and needed to be on a special diet. She was given away as a pet & the new family can only feed her grain free foods to keep weight on and prevent colitis flare ups. I wouldn't say the food she is on now is more appropriate for dogs because she does so well on it. It's the food she needs to be on to help manage her condition. 




> I contribute 95% of Nallah's appearance to her food. Health shines from the inside out.
> *
> Please explain to me why you would want to feed your dog something SO HIGH in content of something they wouldnt normally eat?? *
> 
> ...




That's great! I'm glad you found a feed Nallah is doing well on  
I can also say that my dogs are looking pretty spiffy, lol, and I feed mostly diets that have corn as the main grian. When I deviate from the old tried & true brands, I always open up a can of worms ... like no milk in a lactating bitch on Merrick, Canidae caused systemic yeast infections, including two of my bitches coming into heat and dropping white mucous instead of blood, more recently we tried CORE and that was a disaster ... 
So basically I feed diets high in corn because they work. Perhaps that's an oversimplification, but it's the truth. Purina is the staple here, have also tried other brands on/off and wasn't so impressed. Let's see. I am also a recent convert to Science Diet - gawd, it's $$$ but I think the adult food is out of this stinking world!!! They eat practically nothing on SD and their coats are amazing, like I bathed and chalked them down when they haven't been waashed in an embarrasing length of time  Back to Puppy Chow though ... I fed it to a very weak, sickly litter in March, and they did remarkable on it - the underlying problem was whipworms, btw. Now, it's one thing to keep healthy pups in top shape, but for weak pups to thrive on it is another story altogether. My 5yo bitch also had a litter on it later on during the summer, it was the easiest, shortest, most humdrum whelping I've ever seen! Pups slid out like stools and were in perfect body weight. Now, we did a litter on raw, and I was not at all pleased with the condition of the pups. They were too thin even thought the mother was getting a bit fatter than I like, and it was a long, drawn out, messy, painful labor. Same bitch that had the pups slide out this summer. Her babies grew big & healthy, she milked like a cow and remained in great shape despite the fact she allowed the pups to nurse until nearly 10 weeks!
I don't need to see links telling me why ingredient A is bad and ingredient B is so much better. It's all internet propoganda. I'm not saying to go to the bottom of the barrel and feed Kibbles and Bits but ingredients are not the most improtant factor to me. 





> *Fruits and Vegetables are there for a reason. They're adding nutritional value and supplementing the diet. They are not FILLERS or meant to take the place of meat. TAKE A LOOK AT HOW HIGH UP ON THE LIST CORN IS. *
> 
> Please explain to me how this makes any sense to you...I'm really at a loss



You can't claim dogs are carnovires who don't need grains in one breath, and tell me in another that veggies add nutritional value. Now I do believe that a small percentage of the diet should include veggies (maybe 5%, IMHO), but then again, I'm not claiming dogs are carnivores who should have little to no grain in the diet. Veggies also have an alkalizing affect on the urine, which is one reason they should not be fed in excess (such as on a daily basis). The proper urine pH for dogs should be moderately acidic (again, unlike true carnivores whose urine ph is highly acidic/concentrated) so throwing in too many vegetables over an extended period of time can offset the pH level and that will cause bladder/kidney problems down the road.


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## smileypits (Dec 25, 2008)

When I was growing up, we fed grocery store bought food and our dogs did fine on it. Their life spans were normal, their stools were firm.... they were active and normal.
When I was a broke college kid, the same thing applied.... things worked out ok.

I began looking around the internet and inquiring about dog foods.

The best thing I can tell you is that when you feed any grocery store bought food, it's like stopping at McDonald's. Of course it's ok when you are in a pinch but to eat that every single day, for every single meal?! You can only imagine how you would feel. Have you seen the movie, SuperSize Me? That is how your dog feels. It's enough to live and maintain life, but is it enough to thrive and be the best he/she can be?!

A ok website to visit is: www.animalark.eapps.com/animal/PetFoods.nsf/$$PetFoodsByRating?OpenForm

but if this one works for you: www.dogfoodanalysis.com (it's much better, but it seems to be out of order)

I immediately noticed a change in my dogs. I changed to the all-life stages Canidae formula because we have 2 active level dogs and 2 seniors. Within 1 week - I noticed considerable less stiffness in the seniors, better breath and in the active pups - I noticed an extra sheen to their coats. Within 3 weeks - there was noticable energy increase, less poop (less filler, less waste) and less irritabilty in the seniors. 

Until you switch to a 4 star food, you just don't know what you are letting your dog miss out on. I didn't believe it either, my family didn't either - but you will notice a difference immediately. Although the cost SEEMS higher, it's not because there isn't much/any fillers so you end up feeding 1/2 as much. In my area a 35lb bad of canidae is about $31+tax. That's roughly $1 per lb. A bag of Safeway Nuggets is $17.99 +tax so roughly .60 cents per lb. My dogs eat 2lbs of good food per day but they eat 4 1/2 lbs of bad food per day to maintain weight/hunger. The math on that means that by buying good food - I save money, even though it doesn't seem like it. Plus certain specialty stores sometimes do a "buy 9, get 1 free" and if you can find that (pet pros...) then that lowers the price considerably.

It's really worth it, I can't stress how much so.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> The best thing I can tell you is that when you feed any grocery store bought food, it's like stopping at McDonald's. Of course it's ok when you are in a pinch but to eat that every single day, for every single meal?! You can only imagine how you would feel. Have you seen the movie, SuperSize Me? That is how your dog feels. It's enough to live and maintain life, but is it enough to thrive and be the best he/she can be?!



That's not an accurate argument because considering ALL kibble is processed food, *every brand of dry or canned food qualifies as McDonalds*. The only non processed food for dogs would be to cook for them or do raw. Since home prepared diets (or at least, doing 100% home prepared) is not feasable for every owner, the next best thing is to get the dog on a good kibble that works. Give ingredients some credence, but it's not wise, IMHO, to only judge a feed based on the ingredient list. There is the vitamin premix, fatty acid content, feeding trials behind the food that give the whole picture of the quality. Ingredients are only a piece of that picture, not the entire thing. 




> Until you switch to a 4 star food, you just don't know what you are letting your dog miss out on. I didn't believe it either, my family didn't either - but you will notice a difference immediately. Although the cost SEEMS higher, it's not because there isn't much/any fillers so you end up feeding 1/2 as much. In my area a 35lb bad of canidae is about $31+tax. That's roughly $1 per lb. A bag of Safeway Nuggets is $17.99 +tax so roughly .60 cents per lb. My dogs eat 2lbs of good food per day but they eat 4 1/2 lbs of bad food per day to maintain weight/hunger.



Um, yeah. I HAVE tried the "5 star foods". Frequently. Should I list them all? Well, as many as I can remember?
Evolve, Canidae, Nutro Ultra, Back To Basics, Wellness, Best In Show (similar to Innova original - now out of business), Healthwise, Timberwolf Organic (the worst), Merrick, Natural Balance ... Also fed raw for 3yrs. 
The best foods I've used were Blackwood, Purina, Eukanuba/Iams, and more recently, Science Diet. The only mid grade type food I used and was unhappy with was Pro Pac. 
Think that about covers everything I've tried. My dogs are not missing out on anything. In fact, while some holistic foods caused minor problems, some were profound health issues. Evolve was the only one I used that was worth it's salt, I'd go back to it in a heartbeat if they hadn't changed the formula last winter and ruined it  It was actually a great value, great ingredients, wonderful results - a rare combination! I used Canidae for 5 months and had quite a few problems with it like refusal to eat, lack of pigmentation in my GSDs coat, the afformentioned vaginal yeast infections that screwed up their heat cycles. My 65lb German Shepherd pup ate 6 cups of Canidae just to maintain a skinny frame. She did best on Blackwood 2000 & Pro Plan ... with those feeds, she ate 3.5 - 4 cups daily.
Puppy Chow is less than $14 for 17.5lbs ... the food lasts me a while because they eat very little to maintain. With the breeder program, the rebate checks bring the cost of the food down to basically $7 a bag, and again, very little food eaten = bag lasts longer = more $ saved. Same with Dog Chow. I fed active 15" Beagles 1ish cup daily on average. I have never found that holistic foods required me to feed less, save for with Evolve. 
As long as my dogs are doing well with it I'll continue to use it, regardless of ingredients.


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## smileypits (Dec 25, 2008)

Ok ok! I wasn't personally attacking you. Geesh. I was posting to the OP. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

May I ask how long you've taken to transition into using a new food? Ever take into consideration that it takes time for these things to balance out? 

So you believe that any kibble is comparable to McDonalds? I don't think thats a fair comparason. You're basically saying that you're feeding your dogs McDonalds food. You mention that there are more important things than INGREDIENTS to a food. Yep, the vitamins & minerals and important things our dogs get out of food, and that comes from the ingredients. 

Its a proven fact that meat is a "complete" protein. Corn isn't. Its lacking a few key amino acids. And yes, the Grocery Store brands may supplement their foods with amino acids, but its much harder for the body to utilize. 

Protein deficiency is a major concern for our dogs, which is caused from less than digestable protein sources or lack of amino acids. Obvious signs are weight loss, coarse & dull coats are the least dangerous. Immune suppression and organ breakdown are the ones to be weary of, the ones you can't see. 

I do understand your point regarding grains vs. fruits and vegetables. I agree with your statement. They _can _survive off of other things besides meat. *Key word: CAN!*

This does not mean its the best for them!!! 

We can survive off of McDonalds too. 

One of my good friends gives us this example: 
Sure, your dogs may do well living on Purina or Pedigree or whatever Grocery Store Brand you may choose to feed, they may live a happy wonderful life and die an old age. 

We also probably know many people that live to be 80 who've smoked and drank their whole lives too. That dosn't mean that their lifestlyle and choices were the best for them. 

*Our dogs can't speak up and tell us what they need, we have to choose that for them. *


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## KenzoHanzo (Dec 29, 2008)

I experienced with Eukanuba, Royal Canin, Pro Plan, Purina, Pedigree (for me is the worst one containing colored products), Nutro choice and all grocery brands and was not happy with them. My maltese had terrible tear stains. The ingredient which is called beet pulp causing him terrible tear stains and he scratched lot too.

Now I feed him Orijen dog food (grain free) and also cook for him too. I started premium ingredients about 1 1/2 years ago and ever since his tear stains were disappered. So No more cheap quality dog food. For me those cheap quality dog food like junk food for my dog and I'm sorry to say this. I don't mean to offend anyone here. It's my experience. Plus my maltese coat never look shinier and healtier. 

I recently give my maltese and yorkshire raw meat too and I would love to try sojo farmer food when I visit the US next year coz I can't find it here in Europe.

My yorkshire breeder had bad experiences with Royal Canin Yorkshire terrier dog food. Her yorkshires had terrible itchy with it and I hear also from lots of yorkshire terrier owners had the same problem as my breeder's yorkshire did.

If anyone wants to see the pics of my maltese showing before and after cured from tear stain problems, please do not hesitate to ask me and I'll be glad to post them here.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> May I ask how long you've taken to transition into using a new food? Ever take into consideration that it takes time for these things to balance out?



Sometimes a few weeks, occasionally a few months - on that note I observed that many of the holistic foods I was using always worked for a few dogs and not the others & would just quit working after a period of 4 months. Caniade & Nutro Ultra were two such foods. Worked very well for the first 2-3 months, then the dogs went on a steady decline in condition. 





> So you believe that any kibble is comparable to McDonalds? I don't think thats a fair comparason. You're basically saying that you're feeding your dogs McDonalds food. You mention that there are more important things than INGREDIENTS to a food. Yep, the vitamins & minerals and important things our dogs get out of food, and that comes from the ingredients.



Yes. Prove Innova or orijen or Wellness are not processed food. Have you ever read Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale? He does not differentiate between brands/ingredients and frequently calls *all* kibble processed feed. He's correct in that assumption, I just don't agree with him that raw is always best for every dog. All kibble is processed food, the chicken meal is the same type of processused to create the "meat" in McNuggets, etc. The best sort of kibble, IMHO, uses meats instead of meals b/c it would be somewhat less processed, less likliehood for chemicals added by the supplier, BUT, kibble is not fresh whole food and is processed. If you don't want to feed processed food, go with cooked or raw. Even I feed some raw as a supplement because *regardless* of the brand, I rather they have some whole foods in their diet. The McDonalds analogy might be more accurate comparing home prepared to kibble, but not kibbles to each other. It's like saying don't feed McDonalds (Brand A), because Wendy's (Brand B) is so much better. 




> Its a proven fact that meat is a "complete" protein. Corn isn't. Its lacking a few key amino acids. And yes, the Grocery Store brands may supplement their foods with amino acids, but its much harder for the body to utilize.



That would only hold water if corn were being fed as the main or sole protein. There is also less credence to it because many of those those key amino acids found only in animal protein, such as taurine, are already manufactured by the dog's body and not an essential dietary requirement. That goes back to dogs not being obligate carnivores. But I agree, grains are not suitable as the staple to be fed in place of meat.





> Protein deficiency is a major concern for our dogs, which is caused from less than digestable protein sources or lack of amino acids. Obvious signs are weight loss, coarse & dull coats are the least dangerous. Immune suppression and organ breakdown are the ones to be weary of, the ones you can't see.



Somehow, my dogs don't seem to have any of those problems on their corn based junk. Hmmm. Two had hypoglycemic seizures (will NEVER forgive myself for that) and all had dull coats & lost weight when I tried Wellness CORE, however. I can't play games with their health, that's why I stick to what works. 

*5yo bitch a few hours after whelping a litter (exclusively fed Puppy Chow)*









*4yo bitch after a few months on Dog Chow - she was a MESS when we got her (stained coat from licking, bald patches, hot spots, bad teeth, bladder problems, runny eyes, poor pigment) - was not being supplemented either*









*And an ugly ol' ratty coated pup weaned onto Puppy Chow (she is a pup out of the litter in the 1st pic - was approx 9 weeks here)*









*More Puppy Chow raised Beagle Brats*


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

UrbanBeagle...

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.  I don't want to make any hard feelings or start an argument. I think you have some very valid points, and it has worked for you. I am glad your dogs are healthy and you have a wealth of information. Thats something to be proud of. Most dog owners know absolutely nothing about dog food, they just feed their dogs what looks good, and what they eat! 

So, with all due respect, I'll stick to my beliefs and you stick to yours. 

Beautiful dogs by the way!


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## FredMom (Nov 27, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Sometimes a few weeks, occasionally a few months - on that note I observed that many of the holistic foods I was using always worked for a few dogs and not the others & would just quit working after a period of 4 months. Caniade & Nutro Ultra were two such foods. Worked very well for the first 2-3 months, then the dogs went on a steady decline in condition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


UrbanBeagles, you are absolutely CORRECT. I have also given my Basset Hound so called "Premium & Holistic" foods and they have cause pure disasters to my Freddy. Now, I feed Fred Purina One and it has done WONDERS for his coat, he has absolutely no health issues and believe it or not, he actually maintains a healthy weight.

It is absolutely amazing how websites and Internet propaganda has confused a lot of pet owners and essentially decieve them into believing that the more expensive brands are better. I have stuck with Purina for over a year now and I have to say that my doggie is too happy!


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Urban beagle- your pups are adorable! I'm craving beagle puppies now  
My dad used to raise labs and he noticed the same thing. We never had a difficult birth due to food but we had better and healthier pups with Purina one, with raw we had skinny pups. I'm not sure if it was the food or the moms though. I have a beagle and she did horrible on Solid Gold and Canidae and okay on Wellness but she had soft stools. We may try Purina one but she's never been on a grocery brand before, and never had alot of grains in her diet. We'll just see I guess


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Nallah06 said:


> I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.  I don't want to make any hard feelings or start an argument.



Sorry if I came off as argumentative, wasn't my intention to get rowdy, lol ... just a good ol' debate! You definitely have some great points - you can't totally discount ingredients, either.



FredMom said:


> UrbanBeagles, you are absolutely CORRECT. I have also given my Basset Hound so called "Premium & Holistic" foods and they have cause pure disasters to my Freddy. Now, I feed Fred Purina One and it has done WONDERS for his coat, he has absolutely no health issues and believe it or not, he actually maintains a healthy weight.



HOLY CRAP! Fred has to be the leanest most fit looking Basset I've ever seen - WOW!!! LOL!  Is he a red & white? Really handsome hound!



Hallie said:


> My dad used to raise labs and he noticed the same thing. We never had a difficult birth due to food but we had better and healthier pups with Purina one, with raw we had skinny pups. I'm not sure if it was the food or the moms though. I have a beagle and she did horrible on Solid Gold and Canidae and okay on Wellness but she had soft stools.



I fed raw to the bitch w/ the pups in the pic when she had her previous litter in '06. Have to say, she looked great, was gaining weight well BUT same thing with her pups. Entirely too thin at birth, which is not good because the slightest chill or bout of diarrhea can delpete what little reserves they already have. Don't want porky pups, but if I can see ribs on newborn whelps ... NOT good. She had a bear of a time whelping that litter too. Something about dietary calcium does have an effect on labor. 
I actually like Wellness puppy food - soft stools here too, but great results otherwise. Their adult food stank royally, but the pup food was one of the better ones.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I think that all anyone can do is just feed the best that they can. It grocery store brands work well for your dog, then there is no need to worry about a switch if you can't afford something better. Or even if you can, and your dog does great on it, why switch...do what is best for the dog.

Before Eddie and Uallis, we had 2 other dogs, Dan and Montana. My boyfriend had these dogs when I met him. Both were fed generic off brand food almost their entire lives...in the last few years of their lives, the vet recommended a switch to _at least_ a brand name food, like Purina...they ate that until they died...both were 15 years old when they died...they lived very long lives and were pretty healthy with no major health issues for the majority.

Eddie was given Purina Puppy Chow several months after I got him...I started reading up on dog food ingredients...realized that I could _afford_ "better" quality food for him and switched him to Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul and he's been on it since and has done fantastic.

With Uallis, he started out on Eagle Pack Giant breed puppy and was on that for several months...due to availability issues, I switched him to Chicken Soup as well...however with him...he didn't do so well on it. He started developing skin issues, a lot of ear infections, is hair was starting to fall out in halfway decent amounts. The vet wanted to do steroid injections...I decided to try a diet change instead...to a grain-free diet and he's a million times better. The food that Uallis eats (TOTW) is technically a "better quality" food but Eddie is doing great on his food, so there is no need to switch him.

So I say, if what is in your price range is Purina and your dog does fine on it...then that is all that matters. In my opinion at least.


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## KenzoHanzo (Dec 29, 2008)

Great site! Pro and con!!! I stick to what I believe and sure others have another opinion and it's good to share our experiences. 

I can't help myself showing the pics of my maltese showing his tear stain problems (before the cure) and after the cure of his tear stain problems

Have a great day everyone!!!


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## FredMom (Nov 27, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Sorry if I came off as argumentative, wasn't my intention to get rowdy, lol ... just a good ol' debate! You definitely have some great points - you can't totally discount ingredients, either.
> 
> 
> HOLY CRAP! Fred has to be the leanest most fit looking Basset I've ever seen - WOW!!! LOL!  Is he a red & white? Really handsome hound!


Yes, ol Freddy is a red & white basset. The vet is very proud of how healthy he is, how well he has maintained his weight, and how handsome he is and I owe it ALL to Purina!


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## VinnieTheGolden (Jan 1, 2009)

sheltiemom said:


> If dogs are carnivores, how are potatoes, sweet potatoes, carrots, apples, blueberries, broccoli, kale, spinnach, etc, etc, any better for them than corn and rice? Just something I've always wondered about...


Maybe because those vegetables actually have healthy vitamins and nutrients unlike corn, which is just a starch.


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## Tmarie423 (Jan 1, 2009)

When it comes to feeding my dogs I am picky. Purina puppy chow may be ok, but it isn't something I'd feed my own puppy, personally. HealthWise is a good choice and I have used it in the past for many of my rotti's and they thrived on it and recently I have started feeding Eagle Pack Holistic, alittle more costly, but well worth it in the long run. The dogs, as well as their coats look healthier, and there's a lot less poops!<---always a plus


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't know.. this kinda turned me off of purina when I was picking out a food for our new pup..

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/09/pet_food_recalls70.html

as did it's grade on this site, although the grade is for their "Beneful" food

http://www.rotts-n-notts.com/info/display?PageID=2549


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Binkalette said:


> I don't know.. this kinda turned me off of purina when I was picking out a food for our new pup..
> 
> http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/09/pet_food_recalls70.html
> 
> ...


I wouldn't feed Beneful, even I have standards . Purina has tons of foods, some I would feed, One, Pro Plan, _maybe_ Dog Chow...others not.



VinnieTheGolden said:


> Maybe because those vegetables actually have healthy vitamins and nutrients unlike corn, which is just a starch.


Corn isn't _just_ a starch, it has nutrients too, and potatoes, which are used in many of the grain free foods, are actually very similar nutritionally to corn, despite one being a grain and one being a root vegetable.

Here, from an article about corn...It supplies carbohydrates, protein, and potassium, and is a good source of dietary fiber. Other nutrients include thiamin (vitamin B1), pantothenic acid (vitamin B5), folate, dietary fiber, vitamin C, phosphorous, and manganese. Corn also contains beta-carotene, and is a useful source of protein.


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## TampaDiggers (Dec 28, 2008)

Hi there, 

I'm new here but read this entire thread with great interest. I have done quite a bit of research in the process of finding an acceptable food for a dog who has a ton of allergies and skin-related maladies.

My favorite site thus far for info on dogfood is dogfoodanalysis.com. There is a wealth of information about ingredients, what each ingredient purpose is and what it means for the food's overall quality.

That being said, I am not a wealthy person who can afford to be dropping a ton of cash on the latest, greatest, most superior brand of food there is.

I have tried many, many brands including Innova, Royal Canin, Canidae, Blue Buffalo, NutroMax, Merrick, etc etc etc

And believe it or not, my favorite brand thus far is Kirkland Brand, by Costco. Semi-surprisingly, the ingredient list is far superior to the grocery store brands and absolutely akin to the higher-end pet store brands.

My bulldog has been on it for two months now and his skin is perfect, his coat looks great and his pewps are, for lack of a better term, 'just beautiful' LOL Who knew one would ever pay so much attention to what poop looks like? hehe

As an added bonus, it's about $25 for a forty pound bag, which is an unbelievable bargain compared to pet store brands. We are delighted with it's quality so far and I'm just offering another option if you're money-minded like me


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, Kirkland is pretty good. It's the same as Diamond Naturals, which I feed my dogs sometimes. But less expensive...I wish I had a CostCo  . 

There is a difference in the Purina products. Some are just awful, some are OK. Beneful, Moist 'n' Meaty, Alpo, Come 'n' Get it, Grravy, etc. are pretty bad. I'd NEVER feed my dogs those products. Dog Chow, Purina ONE, and Pro Plan are OK. I'd feed them to my dogs if I had to.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

On the subject of corn, The Pet Center lists how much 'digestable' protein each common grain ingredient has:

* Rice = 72% digestible by dogs
* Oats 66%
* Yeast 63%
* Wheat 60%
* Corn 54%

So it's not that corn is nutritionally _useless_ (as long as your dog isn't allergic to it), it just doesn't have a very_ efficient_ nutritional value for a grain ingredient. That's why it's not considered the 'best' choice for a major protein source in a kibble. Compared to meat proteins, it's very inferior, since over half of it will just get pooped out and not utilized by the dog's system.

Of course, if it works for your dog, that's what matters. Icesis did horribly on grain-free kibble, even though it was a gradual switch (from the food she had been raised on for 4 years, 'ProPlan Chicken and Rice')... once I changed over to Nature's Variety Prairie instead of their grainless Instinct brand, she got 100% better. I dunno why her system didn't like it; all I know is that once I switched to a food that had some grain, it worked for her.

I think a lot of people have an overly-negative view of grain in kibble than it deserves.


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## TampaDiggers (Dec 28, 2008)

Willowy said:


> There is a difference in the Purina products. Some are just awful, some are OK. Beneful, Moist 'n' Meaty, Alpo, Come 'n' Get it, Grravy, etc. are pretty bad. I'd NEVER feed my dogs those products. Dog Chow, Purina ONE, and Pro Plan are OK. I'd feed them to my dogs if I had to.



Yes, I totally agree. I think the single biggest turnoff to those foods is the presence of food coloring, which is an absolutely appalling thing to have in dogfood.... and as far as I'm concerned, rather telling in the food's overall quality.

I don't have a Costco membership but my boss does, and she's gracious enough to bring me a bag when she goes... How far away is the nearest one to you? I think you may be able to order online but I don't even want to know the shipping cost for a 40# bag of food LOL


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

TampaDiggers said:


> How far away is the nearest one to you?


Omaha, NE. About a 2 1/2 hour drive, LOL. I think I'll just pay the extra $5 for Diamond Naturals at the local feed store  .

Yeah, food coloring is annoying in pet foods. So unnecessary, and it really stains your carpets if your pet barfs  . Purina ONE and ProPlan don't have food coloring, but Dog Chow does. At least it's not as Technicolor Beneful (or Friskies for cats! Oh, the carpet stains caused by that food!).


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

I've fed grocery store brands when I was lacking money. The worst one for Sassy was of all things Iams. She broke out in the worst Hot Spot outbreak I'd seen. My grandparents swear by Ol'Roy High Protien. Don't get me started on that.. I perfer to feed a mixture. I use 1 scoop Blue Buffalo WIlderness & 1 scoop of By Nature Organics No corn/Wheat/Soy/By Products. And if I can't get those, I'll use Pro Plan Turkey & Barley.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

Sooty was brought up on Purina One & so was my cat. Tilba started out pedigree puppy from the breeder & I switched her over to Supercoat puppy & then onto Innova puppy & now Innova adult with a bit of Advance mixed in.


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## hbueain (Jan 5, 2009)

read the ingredient list, Purina uses a lot of filler and by-product meat. 
my 10 weeks old lab eats dog food by Wellness
go to petco and they have almost every brand. Walmart sells crap, and i'm glad you didn't go for Ol'Roy


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## yatesie (Jan 11, 2009)

its not the best food, but it is cheap and can be bought in HUGE amounts. it has animal by-products and stuff, but really, dogs in the wild eat bones and stuff. so, any answer to your question is going to be really subjective. i kept my westie puppy on eukanuba small breed puppy for the first few weeks of having him. maybe ask your vet what he/she recommends.

good luck with your puppy!


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## demarsjcd (Jan 18, 2009)

Nallah06 said:


> Good question.
> 
> Corn & Rice are grains. They are used as fillers in "grocery store brands" to take the place of important protiens from meat. Thats what makes them cheap. I understand that Premium foods are putting in vegetables & Fruits when dogs are not omnivores, but they are further down the list than you see corn or rice are. They are not using them as fillers.
> 
> ...


I like the way you think...


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## Adampurdy (May 15, 2011)

nice sharing i review dog food from dogfoodchat.com really a great source of information about dogs and their foods...


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## BeyondBlessed (Jan 25, 2011)

Well when I got my dog he was on Puppy Chow, and I decided to go grain free. I don't have the extensive experience with different dogs that many people on here do, but the OCD part of me has come out when I got my first dog. I've read a lot of tried a lot with him. Dogfoodadvisor.com seems to be a popular site to compare foods. I feed my dog Orijen, but I'd at least go with a protein-first food. Iams and Eukanuba puppy formulas are ranked 3 stars, which I think makes them the highest ranked foods available at places like Walmart. The adult versions of those foods aren't as good so I wouldn't continue to feed them. Some Walmarts also sell Natural Life, but it's only available in small bags and is not a good value compared to what you can get elsewhere. The PetSmart brand, Authority, would also be acceptable to me before Purina products and it's reasonably priced. I fed my dog the canned variety of it for awhile.


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