# Beneful?



## Jeffr03 (Oct 27, 2009)

I've heard recently that Beneful may not be the best food for my Border Collie, Max. Is this true? Can anyone recommend a more nutritious food that is a reasonable price? Thanks a lot!!


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## Baileyby (Oct 17, 2009)

The best thing to do is go to www.dogfoodanalysis.com. I would say that Beneful is a very poor quality food. On this website it is only rated a 1 star. A grain free diet seems to be a more healthy way to go. I am currently using Orijin 6 fish with my dog.

Other grain free foods include:
Orijin
Wellness Core
Innova
Acana

Among others...

Acana also makes a dog food with grain... look for the grain free bags. (If you were interested in that food)


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

In my honest opinion, Beneful is a truly crappy food. It's full of fillers like corn and wheat gluten and has zero true meat protein. Don't take my word for it though, do your own research. Some sites that helped me out a lot in choosing a dog food were www.dogfoodanalysis.com and www.dogaware.com. These forums also have a wealth of information on various brands of dog food. I could list a ton of foods that I believe to be of high quality but you still wouldn't know why I(or anyone else for that matter)recommended these foods over Beneful. Once you learn what to look for in the ingredient list you'll be on the right track.
I'm fairly certain this thread will get _many, many_ more posts so you shouldn't be short on information and opinions.

Also, it might help people's responses if we knew what you consider to be "reasonably priced".


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

My main gripe with Beneful is that it's almost the same formula as regular Dog Chow, but with extra food coloring (which isn't good for dogs anyway), and they charge twice as much for it. You can get a much better food for the price you're paying for Beneful, but if you want to stick with foods of similar quality, go with Dog Chow and save your $$$$$.


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## KarliMom (Jan 7, 2009)

Taste of the wild is what we feed our border collie rescues its a 6 star quality grain free dog food probably cheaper than Beneful . We buy it at the tractor supply for 42 dollars a large bag . 

If that is still a bit pricey try Diamond Naturals 3 star dog food at around 18 dollars for a large bag . A lot of people feed DN and their dogs do good on it .


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

It is all a marketing thing, pushing your buttons to get deeper into your wallet. All the foods no matter what ingredients are have at least the minimum of each nutrient. There is in fact no scientific basis to the ratings at dogfoodanalysis and other such sites. If your dog is doing well on Beneful, stick to it. If not, talk to your vet. 

No way can you count on the more expensive foods having better nutrition. If you want to give your dog just as good of nutrition and save money, go with Purina 1 or Iams.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> All the foods no matter what ingredients are have at least the minimum of each nutrient. If your dog is doing well on Beneful, stick to it. If not, talk to your vet.


I think this goes back to the "cost effective institution" topic. Some people would like to feed their dogs better than the equivalent of prison food.

And how would someone know if their dog is "doing well" on a certain food if it's the only one they've ever fed? *They have nothing to compare it to*. If someone wants to try other brands let them. I'm confident that if they didn't see the results they were looking for they'd go right back to what was working "so well" before.

Don't go to the vet looking for dog food information they're just going to recommend Pro Plan or Science Di...oh wait that was his point .


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

I dont think its about the more expensive food having more nutrition...there are lots of expensive foods out there with crap in the ingredients. I feed my dog raw food but I stood in the pet store just yesterday reading the ingredient lists on lots of catfood and just common sense told me what one/s to choose. I dont know how you compare the ingredient list of a good quality food and a crap food and say they are equivalent? To me its like feeding my kids hamburger helper and a vitamin and calling a nutritous meal.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Ingredients on the bag are listed from most prevalent to least.

Beneful's Original Dog Formula top ten:


> Ground Yellow Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Whole Wheat Flour, Animal Fat Preserved With Mixed Tocopherols (Form of Vitamin E), Rice Flour, Beef, Soy Flour, Sugar, Sorbitol,


Their number one ingredient is ground corn. Their main source of meat is "chicken by-product meal". By-product meal would be rendered feet, beaks, stomach ruminants, and other left over bits from processing the actual chicken. Oh hey look, then there's some more corn. Just for fun, the preservatives even start before the end of the top ten. Sorbitol is a preservative.

If Beneful is the highest price point you're comfortable with, you'd be better served with Purina, Iams, Eukanuba, or Science Diet. Beneful is probably one of the worst ripoffs in the dog food industry in my opinion. They basically spray pretty colors and heavy preservatives on some of the crappiest food and sell it at a grossly inflated price point. 

Barring any contaminants or recall issues, your dog will survive on any commercial food you feed him. It's up to you to decide whether the extra expense (and possibly travel time, depending on your local stores) is worth it for higher/better meat content, fewer preservatives and little or no grains. I drive an extra twenty minutes to a specialty shop to get my dog's Evo and I pay $34 for a 13.2lb bag, just to give you an idea. Reading the ingredients, and knowing that dogs are carnivores, it just makes sense to me to feed them as much meat, and as little grain (in this case none), as possible within the constraints of a dry kibble. Ideally I'd like to feed raw, but I've chosen kibble for convenience. Make the decision you are comfortable with on all fronts, from quality to cost to convenience.

We all make the food decision that works the best for us. Up until recently my cats were eating Purina Cat Chow. I switched to it from Natural Balance (and sometimes Innova) several years ago when the store I was buying them at closed. Then we went through some financial issues and Purina just made more sense when we were barely managing to put food on our own table. It certainly made more sense than throwing myself into such a financial mess trying to buy more expensive food that I ended up having to rehome them.

Now they're eating Natural Balance LID Pea and Salmon. My 8 year old has developed a stomach issue as of late, which prompted the switch to a limited ingredient food, and I'm still considering switching them to something else if CeCe will tolerate it. Having switched them back and forth, I've been able to see the difference between the two with my own eyes. Of course, it's all anecdotal, but on Natural Balance my cats shed less and poop less, and CeCe's recent vomiting has ceased since switching. I'm considering switching again to Wellness or one of the other limited ingredient foods to see how they do. I free feed my cats, so if one eats a limited ingredient diet, they all have to.

I find it more than amusing that labsnothers continues to talk about how it's all a marketing thing. I want you to think really hard about the last time you saw a commercial or print advertisement for Evo or Orijen. Now compare that to the last time you saw a commercial or print advertisement for Beneful or Purina. Really now, who's doing all the marketing?


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## Jennyfur (Oct 14, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> I want you to think really hard about the last time you saw a commercial or print advertisement for Evo or Orijen. Now compare that to the last time you saw a commercial or print advertisement for Beneful or Purina. Really now, who's doing all the marketing?


Excellent point! It's remarkable, when you think about it, that the higher quality food companies are able to keep manufacturing their products. I can't believe the first 10 ingredients in Beneful.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> It is all a marketing thing, pushing your buttons to get deeper into your wallet. All the foods no matter what ingredients are have at least the minimum of each nutrient. There is in fact no scientific basis to the ratings at dogfoodanalysis and other such sites. If your dog is doing well on Beneful, stick to it. If not, talk to your vet.
> 
> No way can you count on the more expensive foods having better nutrition. If you want to give your dog just as good of nutrition and save money, go with Purina 1 or Iams.


You still don't get it. 

We are only reading your posts in the "Food forum" for not much more than comic relief at this point. You have >0 credibility at this point.

Way to recommend Benefil !! I'm so proud of you.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

when we got brom the people were feeding him the puppy beneful formula  what puppy needs corn, by-products, and SUGAR?? blah! we switched him from it as soon as we could. i mentioned to my vet that he was eating beneful and my vet told me to get him off it as soon as i could. also, my vet DIDN'T suggest sd or any other crappy over-priced foods! 

if you want to feed something different then i would suggest you do your own research because you can ask 25 different people what you should feed your dog and you will get 25 different foods all with anecdotal evidence to back it up. the only way you will know what to feed your dog is through your own research and finding the food that YOUR dog does best on. there is no one food that is THE BEST for every dog.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

ioreks_mom said:


> the only way you will know what to feed your dog is through your own research and finding the food that Y*OUR dog does best on.* there is no one food that is THE BEST for every dog.


The bigger issue is that some people have no idea what "best" is. This is the difficult part that takes time and patients.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

The marketing stratagy for Beneful is phenomenal. Think about what they show. Dad playing with his cute little scruffy dog. All the colors that we like to see in our foods. Plus the name Beneful like it really benefits your dog's health. Names like Healthy Radiance, Playful Life, Healthy Harvest, etc what great marketing for poor quality food. Whenever a overweight dog comes into the clinic chances on he/she is eating Beneful, Kibbles and Bits or O'Roy. Can't tell you how many dogs with allergies are on these foods. Change to a better quality food and sometimes the allergies recede.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

agility collie mom said:


> The marketing stratagy for Beneful is phenomenal. Think about what they show. Dad playing with his cute little scruffy dog. All the colors that we like to see in our foods. Plus the name Beneful like it really benefits your dog's health. Names like Healthy Radiance, Playful Life, Healthy Harvest, etc what great marketing for poor quality food. Whenever a overweight dog comes into the clinic chances on he/she is eating Beneful, Kibbles and Bits or O'Roy. Can't tell you how many dogs with allergies are on these foods. Change to a better quality food and sometimes the allergies recede.


But these did pass the stringent AAFCO quality standards right? Therefore it MUST be a well balanced "all your dog will ever need" food!!


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## croll326 (Jul 25, 2009)

The BEST is whatever your dog does good on - PERIOD. I would stick to a Premium class food if possible but if your dog has diarrhea on everything except Purina then I think that might be what you should stick to (I dont see that ever happening though). I have nothing against the grocery store brands but would NEVER feed by dog anything with corn or by products in them. If you are Whoppers and Big Macs all day everyday how healthy would you be? Give your dog the best food - in your opinion - that you can afford. You have to read read and read and make your own opinion while taking everyone elses opinion and manufacturers information with a grain of salt. Try to equate the quality of your dogs food with human food and then as yourself, "would I eat something like that?" If you say no then I would get a different food.

Also, when I tell people I feed TOTW or EVO most people usually say they never heard of it. I tell them to do a quick internet search and that the higher quality dog foods are USUALLY ones that you probably never heard of because they don't pour money in to putting commercials on your TV.

Keep in mind that I tend to be obsessed when I get on a topic such as dog food....ill research for days and days and days or weeks and weeks to make my self comfortable and educated to make a final decision.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

croll326 said:


> I have nothing against the grocery store brands but would NEVER feed by dog anything with corn or by products in them. If you are Whoppers and Big Macs all day everyday how healthy would you be? Give your dog the best food - in your opinion - that you can afford. You have to read read and read and make your own opinion while taking everyone elses opinion and manufacturers information with a grain of salt.


Good points.. The sad part is lots of "people" as in "humans" couldn't care less about what THEY eat or spend the time to make a more informed, healthier decision. I wonder, if they wonder, why their fat while they eat that cheeseburger???

Dogs unfortunately can't make these choices, so it's our responsibility to do the best we can for them. I think it's easier to sleep at night when you've done at least that.


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## croll326 (Jul 25, 2009)

Tell me about it. Half of this country is obese so why would those people care about what they are feeding their dogs if they don't care what they eat and haven't seen their feet since 1982?

I want to vomit when I see a person walking out of a grocery store with the biggest bag of dog food they could possibly find. I just say prayer for their dog because I know they don't deserve to eat that junk but they are at the mercy of their owners pea sized brain.


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## brecken (Oct 25, 2009)

Jeffr03 said:


> I've heard recently that Beneful may not be the best food for my Border Collie, Max. Is this true? Can anyone recommend a more nutritious food that is a reasonable price? Thanks a lot!!


the one thing about beneful that people dont know is that it has 7 grams of sugar in it which is really bad for your dog. for a border collie i would go with something like evo or innova


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

croll326 said:


> Tell me about it. Half of this country is obese so why would those people care about what they are feeding their dogs if they don't care what they eat and haven't seen their feet since 1982?
> 
> I want to vomit when I see a person walking out of a grocery store with the biggest bag of dog food they could possibly find. I just say prayer for their dog because I know they don't deserve to eat that junk but they are at the mercy of their owners pea sized brain.


To be fair. I eat like crap. But I wouldn't force my dog to eat this way


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## brecken (Oct 25, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> To be fair. I eat like crap. But I wouldn't force my dog to eat this way


RIGHT!!!! and people come into my store all the time i work at a pet store that is only in michigan when people walk in the first thing they ask me is how can i bring my dogs weight down? well what are you feeding Beneful, Dog chow, PURINA NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO theres your problem all your feeding is fillers and bi-products and sugar. i went to walmart today and i saw someone buying cat chow WHAT ARE YOU DOING do u know how hard it is to walk through there and see that and try not to say anything ITS TERRIBLE lol


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Ayanla said:


> To be fair. I eat like crap. But I wouldn't force my dog to eat this way


haha! i am the same! i eat junk, i know i do, i want to change but boy those chips look good...  BUT i make sure to research and feed my pets what i feel is the best for them.

on a little side, since the thread kind of went this way...if i ever decide to have children i will make sure i am eating healthy BEFORE i get pregnant so i will not be a hypocrite when i make my kid eat their fruits and veggies!


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## brecken (Oct 25, 2009)

may i remind you that my dog eats way healthier and more expensive than i do lol


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

haha! same here!


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> Ingredients on the bag are listed from most prevalent to least.
> 
> Beneful's Original Dog Formula top ten:
> 
> ...



Again, great post Ayanla. I find it truly hard to believe that Labsnothers doesn't realize the great disservice he is doing for dog and owner by recommending that someone feed a food like Beneful over all the other choices out there. After comparing the ingredients in Beneful to any of the higher end foods, *common sense
* would tell you that there is a difference in quality and a big one at that. I'm not saying everyone should feed premium kibble because I realize not everyone can afford to(I myself have to make sacrifices to be able to), but to say that one kibble is just as good as any other is just plain wrong.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

nico8 said:


> comparing the ingredients in Beneful to any of the higher end foods, *common sense* would tell you that there is a difference in quality and a big one at that.


 Amazes me too. And then you mix some biology and chemistry in with common sense and a dash of marketing you'll have a well prepared decision maker!!!


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

What's really funny is that I work for a company that sells conveyor belting. One of my big accounts is a company that sells the belts to Nestle Purina. So in a twisted way, I actually benefit from encouraging people to buy pet food from Nestle (Purina and Beneful are both made by Nestle), and I still can't do it.


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## sassykzt (Oct 25, 2009)

Please know that dogs are carnivores not omnivores like us. Dogs thrive on protein. Look for foods that are high in protein ( actual meat /fish or meals but not buy products), rather than the typical high-carbohydrate diets that are more commonly available. Dogs have little nutritional need for carbohydrates; they are used in dog food mostly as an inexpensive source of calories (grains are also used to supply low-quality protein in some foods), and to help bind dry food together into kibble. I know this is a lot to take in! Take a look at the 2 websites mentioned. I think a good diet and plenty of exercise will be great for Max.


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## Jeffr03 (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all the opinions! I have checked out the dogfoodanaysis.com site a little today and have been looking at Blue Buffalo but I'm not 100% sure yet. Max gets great exercise, I live right next to a school with 3 HUGE fields that we play frisbee everyday sometimes twice, morning runs and I take him to the dog park at least 3 times a week! He gets more exercise then me haha. Thanks again, now back to researching!

edit: Oh I also give him a joint support treat that has 500mg glucosamine and 400mg chondroitin


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Jennyfur said:


> Excellent point! It's remarkable, when you think about it, that the higher quality food companies are able to keep manufacturing their products. I can't believe the first 10 ingredients in Beneful.


The large companies can afford TV commercials and magazine ads. Smaller companies get by on astroturf.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Presumably the larger companies can afford more advertising because the larger companies also sell products like candy bars and potato chips while many of the higher quality dog foods are produced by companies that specialize in...dog food.

I think the point, Labsnothers, was that you're constantly claiming premium dog foods exist as a result of marketing. To what marketing are you referring?


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## KarliMom (Jan 7, 2009)

This is to Labsnothers

I have read post that you do not own a dog and the more I look at your name and some of the very strange answers you come up with . I would like to know .

Do you work in a lab that does experiments on animals or for a company that does ?


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

The only dog we have had since the 80's that was ''ours'' was Aster that retired as a dog guide at 10 and lived to be 15 with us. She was the third of 19 puppies we have raised for service dog schools since 1991. 

Suppose you knew a breeder that bred hundreds of dogs a year, mostly Labs, Shepherds, and Goldens. They provided all the medical care for most of them the first year. At the end of it, they did a complete physical including hip X-rays on all of them. They then spent $35,000 training them before giving them away. They have a large data base of breeding records. Dogs with any physical or temperamental problems are unfit for the program and are a waste. Their well equipped clinic and vet staff are available for serious problems as long as the dog is working. When the dog is no longer able to work, it is replaced at again the $35,000 plus a large emotional upheaval for the person depending on the dog. They have experimented with different diets and exchanged data with other such breeders. Don't you think that what ever they are feeding is healthy and safe? What kinds of controlled studies do you have backing your choice of diet? How objective are the sources of your information? Is your dog's health, their top priority?

I have been raising puppies since 1991 for a large dog guide school that does exactly that. What do they feed? They instruct us to feed Pro Plan chicken and rice puppy chow until 4 months and then switch to adult Pro Plan chicken and rice. I know enough of the people with the trained dogs to know they continue the Pro Plan. The group I meet with monthly for training includes people that have raised puppies for 6 different service dog schools. Some of them are feeding other common commercial chows including Iams and Eukanuba. Any dog owner wanting a healthy, long lived dog can make this regimen work, leaving more time to spend on the dog. It is also relatively economical.


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## LadyD (May 10, 2009)

I agree with Labs, it is a "marketing" thing. The major corn and meat by-prducts based dogfood companies spend so little on the ingredients that they can afford clever but misleading ads. Who ever saw a Evo, TOTW, Orijen, etc>> ad on tv?? Not me!


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## ZerotheHero3 (Oct 5, 2009)

So... Labsnothers, let me get this straight... you find it completely healthy to feed your dog a food that has "animal fat" in it??............ In case you are unaware animal fat is made by taking euthanized shelter animals (that were killed with euthanicide), road kill and leftovers scraped off of slaughter house floors and boiling them, they then scrape the layer of fat of the top and send it to pet food companies who use it to flavour their pet food. You find it HEALTHY to feed your... oh, im sorry, forgot you don't own a dog, other peoples dogs by products?? They don't even know what animals the by-products come from, it just says ANIMALS on the bag, that is revoltingly disgusting and I wouldn't even feed those kinds of food to a pet rock let alone my dog. I can look at any dog and sure it looks healthy but are it's INSIDES healthy? I don't eat all that well myself. Mcdonalds, Five Guys (yummy) on my work breaks, ya know. I'm 5'6 and 125 lbs. I look healthy as hell but my body is probably screaming at me from the inside. Please explain why these ingredients are "healthy." Oh and can you list your credentials for me? Like real credentials. I'm not talking about raising a lab and training it to turn on a light for you.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Is your dog's health, their top priority?



I can guarandamntee you it isn't Mars, Nestle, or Colgate-Palmolive's top priority.


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## Jennyfur (Oct 14, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> They instruct us to feed Pro Plan chicken and rice puppy chow until 4 months and then switch to adult Pro Plan chicken and rice. I know enough of the people with the trained dogs to know they continue the Pro Plan.


I've always fed my 11-year-old Buhund the Pro Plan Chicken and Rice, and now I'm going to feed her something healthy--because I've done my research. When you know better, you do better. I'm sure the guide dogs survive on the food they're given, much as my own dog has, but I prefer to go with a more optimal food that can alleviate or prevent some common health issues.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> ...Don't you think that what ever they are feeding is healthy and safe? ...


Nope. I think what they're feeding is "good enough." I think what they're feeding is heavily influenced by marketing and, likely, food deals the school has with Purina. The same way most vets are affected by marketing and deals with the makers of Science Diet. Vets, even if they work for "guide dog school that shan't be named", don't do nutritional studies nor are they interested in nutrition beyond maybe asking what they eat if the dog is ill or over/under weight. Again, guide dog schools are non-profit organizations with corporate partnerships with food companies.

From The Royal New Zealand Foundation of the Blind



> Nestlé Purina is another Guide Dog Services sponsor, helping us by providing food for all guide dogs and puppies up to graduation, as well as breeding stock. At the Mystery Creek Fieldays in June, they donated dog whistles for us to sell.


From Dog Guides Canada



> Purina has been providing foster puppies and dogs in training with dog food since day 1, almost 25 years ago. As our Dog Guide programs have grown, Purina has kept up with this expansion donating more food every year, now totaling approximately 30,000kg of kibble, 3000 cans and over 700 bags of biscuits a year!


Wait...don't hit reply yet. I'm getting to America. I was just showing you that there's a pattern.

from Guide Dogs.com, which services the US and Canada



> Guide Dogs for the Blind feeds and recommends Science Diet dog food formulas. Hill's Pet Nutrition, Inc. and Guide Dogs for the Blind have been Partners in Nutrition since 2004 and share a vision to strengthen and improve the quality of life for people and their pets...


From Canine Companions for Independence

Nothing to quote, but if you click the link you can see one of their corporate sponsors is Eukanuba

I could keep digging, but I feel that is enough to establish a pattern of "corporate sponsorship" between dog food manufacturers and guide dog schools world wide.

And finally, to address this question:



> Is your dog's health, their top priority?


From Nestle Management Report 2001 (That is a pdf file, not an in browser URL - just a warning)



> Nestle's strategic priorities are focused on delivering shareholder value through the achievement of sustainable, capital efficient and profitable long term growth.


Well that certainly gives me the warm fuzzies.

Go ahead and tell me that the guide dog school you work with doesn't have a corporate sponsorship with a food company. Since you're working with an unnamed mystery company, it's not like anyone could prove anything different.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

What is this companies thing? All the larger service dog schools are non profit organizations. Their bottom line is helping people. Yes, the money has to come from somewhere. However, Nestle, P&G, and Mars don't have the money it would take to induce the schools to recommend a food that lead to a shorter working life for the dogs. Dog food is a very small part of the budget of the schools. They only pay for the food for the very limited part of a dog's life it spends in training.

Did your sales manager help you find those references?


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Labsnothers said:


> Did your sales manager help you find those references?


wow! you are SO rude!


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> What is this companies thing? All the larger service dog schools are non profit organizations. Their bottom line is helping people. Yes, the money has to come from somewhere. However, Nestle, P&G, and Mars don't have the money it would take to induce the schools to recommend a food that lead to a shorter working life for the dogs. Dog food is a very small part of the budget of the schools. They only pay for the food for the very limited part of a dog's life it spends in training.
> 
> Did your sales manager help you find those references?


God, you are such an .....! Someone posts heaps of information about how Guide Dog schools actually function, get paid, and why they feed cheap food and you still don't get it.

We all realize you are so emotionally attached to this unnamed guide school and obviously have looked up to them for the last 18 years and take their word like it's from the gospel of Jesus Christ (which is incorrect as well - more on that later). But it's time to grow-up/wake-up and accept the fact that their is better real "FOOD" out their for dogs that actually just might help these animals that you love so dear but will not open your eyes and see the BIG picture for what it is.

Why does it take less then 30 minutes for most people to "get it" and you don't? No it's not hype, or marketing why we are here preaching the word of the lord - it's common sense and scientific fact that real food is better for a dog just like it is better for any animal walking on the face of the earth. So yes that soy-corn-meal-byproduct-preservative laden stuff you call "a complete balanced diet" is actually the bare minimum to keep dogs sustained. 

Bravo!!! Keep up the good work.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> Did your sales manager help you find those references?


I don't understand the question. I don't even understand the implication you were trying to make with the question. I'm not sure if you were making a thinly veiled insult to my intelligence or if you were trying to imply I hold some bias against Nestle Purina despite working for a company that profits from their existence. In either case, you only effectively came off sounding like a kid on they playground countering an argument with "oh yeah? well you're a poopyhead!"



Labsnothers said:


> Dog food is a very small part of the budget of the schools.


Is it? Let's look at some actual numbers instead of just pulling "facts" from nowhere.

Guidedogs.com financial statement for 2009 (pdf again, sorry!)

Their stated costs for "dog food and supplies" is $542,000. You're correct that it's only small fraction of their total budget when you factor in all of their operation expenses from payroll to utilities, but it's still not a small number. In fact, I would argue that it's only as small as it is precisely because of their partnership with Hill's.

Unfortunately we can't look at the financial statement or corporate sponsor agreements of the school you supposedly work with, so we just have to go with what's available from other sources who operate in the same field as a not for profit guide dog school.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> I don't understand the question. I don't even understand the implication you were trying to make with the question. I'm not sure if you were making a thinly veiled insult to my intelligence or if you were trying to imply I hold some bias against Nestle Purina despite working for a company that profits from their existence. In either case, you only effectively came off sounding like a kid on they playground countering an argument with "oh yeah? well you're a poopyhead!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Excellent work!!

A horse with blinders I tell ya...


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## croll326 (Jul 25, 2009)

If you had someone that fed you would you want them to feed you...

1. Buttered, stale, white bread all day every day for years
2. Balance meals with meat, vegetables, fruits, and other yummy healthy stuff.

Exactly.....


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

One more invalid analogy.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Hows this one.

You can survive on McDonald's.... They past "stringent testing"

We all see you are OK with McDonalds - now move along !!


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## croll326 (Jul 25, 2009)

Ya especially with their "all white meat" nuggets.....what were they before???? Probably chicken feet, beaks, necks, and anything under the sun.

Has anyone ever watched the movie "Super Size Me" ?

You have to check it out...a guys eats McDonalds 3 times a day for a month and he almost DIES from it....

How is that for an analogy for feeding dogs grocery store kibble?

Here is the link to a youtube video of supersize me......1hr 40 minutes long but you may never eat fast food again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7Tv_mihMBA


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Argue it or not. 

You are feeding your dog fast food essentially by picking up that "inexpensive" grocer store brand just down the street. You might as well hit drive through on the way home too.

Science Diet is a Big Mac
Orijen/EVO/Wellness is a fresh "wrap" or a TV dinner ??
RAW - is a steak dinner with all the fixings

Simple really.


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## croll326 (Jul 25, 2009)

Orijen and EVO have to be better than Subway!! Cmon!!

Jared looks great from eating Sub Way. haha


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

croll326 said:


> Orijen and EVO have to be better than Subway!! Cmon!!
> 
> Jared looks great from eating Sub Way. haha


Is that better


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I feel the need to clarify the argument here, for the benefit of the OP, who may be thinking that we believe grocery store kibble = Satan.

NOBODY is saying that a dog cannot be happy and healthy on a grocery-store brand kibble. The kids at my high school are happy and healthy, too, and you should see what they give THEM for lunch...badly burnt pepperoni pizza, wilted lettuce "salad", and a carton of chocolate milk.

EVERYONE (with the exception of Labsnothers) is saying that most dogs will be happier and healthier on a premium brand of kibble. Those same kids feel healthier when they get home and their mom has made chicken breast, brown rice, and broccoli coleslaw for dinner and they're happier when they see they get a little bowl of ice cream for dessert.

LABSNOTHERS is saying there is no difference between the two. A corn-based kibble made with animal byproducts and preservatives is identical to a grain-free kibble made with human grade meat. The badly burnt pepperoni pizza is as healthful and as satisfying as the chicken and rice.

Institutions (such as guide dog schools) have hundreds, if not thousands of mouths to feed. They choose what is most healthy _for the amount of money they can spend_. I can afford something better than burnt pizza, so I don't buy that, even though I could easily live off of it for the rest of my life. I can afford something better than Beneful, so I don't buy that, even though my dog could easily live off it for the rest of his life.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Thanks FilleBille!

I always know someone will show-up and make sense of my ramblings eventually.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> Nope. I think what they're feeding is "good enough." I think what they're feeding is heavily influenced by marketing and, likely, food deals the school has with Purina. The same way most vets are affected by marketing and deals with the makers of Science Diet. Vets, even if they work for "guide dog school that shan't be named", don't do nutritional studies nor are they interested in nutrition beyond maybe asking what they eat if the dog is ill or over/under weight. Again, guide dog schools are non-profit organizations with corporate partnerships with food companies.
> 
> From The Royal New Zealand Foundation of the Blind
> 
> ...




She shoots , she scooooooooooooores!


And I agree with everything FilleBelle said...she seemed to sum up both arguments very well.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm just always afraid that, in all the debating, the actual point will be lost and the OP will just feed Beneful because it's easier to do that than to read everyone's posts.

I dunno...I like to be organized, lol.


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## ipreferpi (May 9, 2009)

Keep up the good work! And don't let reality get in the way of that science of yours...


On a different note, I think beneful isn't the best food you could be getting for that price point. If that's what you can afford, many other people have suggested foods like the Kirkland brand, and even Taste of the Wild (both made by diamond), which would be much better (in my opinion) than Beneful. 

Something else to mention is that if you look at the serving recommendations on a food, most higher quality foods will require you to feed less, so you'll actually save money or break even with the lower quality foods in the end. 

Also, a lot of feed stores and dog food stores will have a buy X number of bags, get one free, which is always nice. Just be sure to ask! 

Good luck, and I hope you find something that you and your dog can be happy with.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

OMG, did you draw that, ipreferpi?!? That is HYSTERICAL!!

You are so getting banned...but you're going out with a bang, lol!!


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

ipreferpi said:


> Keep up the good work! And don't let reality get in the way of that science of yours...


OMFG! That is fantastic. ROTFL


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Excellent posts, ayanla! I'm actually _inspired _by your willingness to do the footwork needed to find your sources. I've been getting lazy, but I'm determined to put a stop to that.

It's immensely frustrating to me when labsnothers ignores your posts, as s/he did with the last one.

Also, good post Fillebelle!

And ipreferpi, great drawing! I can only assume it was inspired by the fish oil thread comments... Well, in addition to all the food threads, of late.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I wouldn't want to insult people's intelligence by suggesting they can't see through much of this themselves. Besides, I have a life and I am not on commission.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I wouldn't want to insult people's intelligence by suggesting they can't see through much of this themselves.


That's right , you just insult people's intelligence by expecting us to believe your nonsense. I honestly don't even think you believe half of what you say at this point...sure is tough choking down that big ol' piece of humble pie isn't it?


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

You are very talented, ipreferpi!


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