# Neutered too young?



## amp9364 (Feb 19, 2007)

I saw a new vet today and she was great! The thing that is bothering me is she mentioned that there is research showing that neutering a large breed pup too early may increase the chance of hip dysplasia. Since I had never heard this before, my Berner was neutered at 4 months old. I am kind of worried now and kind of mad that the vet I was going to, which was a big animal hospital, didn't tell me this. I guess I should have done some research first but I never even though about it. Anyone have any input on this topic?


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i know there are alot of different opinions out there on the "pros/cons of when to neuter....i personally like my girls to go thru one season and my boys to be at least 9 mo (preferably a yr)...

but, i have heard that as well....along w/ other growth problems....


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

There have been a few threads on this in the past. You might look around in the older health sections posts. Or you can try doing a search, top of the page, for spaying age or neutering age. 

Otherwise, hopefully some of the members with this information will chime in.

I think that large breeds need a bit more time than smaller breeds to fill out and be sure that their long bones have finished growing before desexing the dog. Once the hormones are messed with so is the skeletal growth.


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

amp9364 said:


> she mentioned that there is research showing that neutering a large breed pup too early may increase the chance of hip dysplasia.


I've seen some research regarding that, and where I tended to ask myself were those dogs that developed hip dysplasia were they destinied to have hip dysplasia even if they were NOT spay/neutered.

Also what was the hip scores on the parents of those pups, including the hip scores on the grandparents plus going back further still for several generations. Basically, in those that did develop hip dysplasia was there any history of hip dysplasia back in their lines.

When you got your Berner, I assume Bernese Mountain Dog, did you check to see if there was any history of hip dysplasia. I notice that on OFA there are 11,531 hip score results for Bernese Mountain Dogs, are your pups parentage hip score results listed on OFA, and here is the OFA website where anyone can do a search to see test results which breeders do before deciding to breed their dogs and where the testing is done at appropriate ages:-
http://www.offa.org/

Regarding the latest research, I think this via this link was the lastest thread on this forum, and in regards to the above what do you think might be the likelyhood of your pup having "high risk genes" for hip dysplasia:-
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/31825-more-spay-neuter-information.html
.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

There is a lot of research that indicates its better to fix dogs later, especially large breed dogs. When fixed young they tend to grow taller than they naturally would have, which puts some extra strain on their bones and joints as they weren't meant to grow that much. Females fixed early tend to have problems with incontinance later in life. However, many, many dogs are fixed at young ages and grow up just fine without problems.


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

melgrj7 said:


> There is a lot of research that indicates its better to fix dogs later, especially large breed dogs. When fixed young they tend to grow taller than they naturally would have, which puts some extra strain on their bones and joints as they weren't meant to grow that much. Females fixed early tend to have problems with incontinance later in life. However, many, many dogs are fixed at young ages and grow up just fine without problems.


Yeah, over the years I've known many dogs at my local dog training club that were fixed at young ages without problems. Some tended to put on weight but that was easily controlled by just adjusting their diet. Some went on and did Agility and I can assure you those that did, did not have hip dysplasia.

As to growing taller due to spay/neutering, someone mentioned to me that Perdue University measured that on xrays and to the eye that difference would not be noticed. Has anyone any information on research that showed actually how much taller they did grow. In each breed I've seen some dogs well above the Breed Standard, and this makes me wonder as their breeders may want to spay/neuter them, even by contract when placed in pet homes, and these might have some influence on research studies.
.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Yes, well I've gotten much input on it about my danes and many other large breeds and all have said to wait at least until 1-2 years for males and 9-15 months for a female. I've heard that it stunts their growth... or they grow tall, but do not fill out and end up being very lanky looking, and they will have strain on their bones as they get older. Both males and females need their hormones to grow properly, but males need them more than the females. I have both male and female danes and I plan on spaying my female at 9-10 months and my male at 1 1/2-2 years, I dont want to take any chances. 
Good luck with your baby, just feed him right and give him vitamin c supplements... you can never go wrong with those...
Nessa


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> Both males and females need their hormones to grow properly, but males need them more than the females.


A thought, instead of "traditional canine spay/neutering" where with these hormones seem a concern with your dogs, why not discuss with your veterinarian alternatives which I hear do NOT affect hormones, such as:-

In males - Vasectomy: The snipping and tying of the vasa deferentia (plural of vas deferens) as a sterilization measure.

In females - Tubal Ligation: Snipping and tying of fallopian tubes as a sterilization measure.
.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Since it's already a done deal, there's nothing you can do about the fact your dog was neutered at the age of 4 months. What you can do NOW is to ensure that your dog does not engage in activities (jumping, long distance jogs/walks/runs, etc.) that could put him at risk, until after the growth plates close. Keep him at a healthy weight (lean is better than chubby), and give him something like Cosequin DS.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> Yes, well I've gotten much input on it about my danes and many other large breeds and all have said to wait at least until 1-2 years for males and 9-15 months for a female. I've heard that it stunts their growth... or they grow tall, but do not fill out and end up being very lanky looking, and they will have strain on their bones as they get older. Both males and females need their hormones to grow properly, but males need them more than the females. I have both male and female danes and I plan on spaying my female at 9-10 months and my male at 1 1/2-2 years, I dont want to take any chances.
> Good luck with your baby, just feed him right and give him vitamin c supplements... you can never go wrong with those...
> Nessa


my girls were both done at the same time. Lexi was aroudn 6 months and Chloe around a year. I was told its best to have them done before their first heat cycle, and while theyre around 6-9 months old. since they are a deep chested breed its harder and they are put at a higher risk when they are put under for any type of surgeries.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

there is increasing evidence that spaying and neutering early is a problem..... 

it doesnt stunt growth but rather causes the growth plates to close later.... 

Not just for hip dysplasia and CCL injuries (Like the most recent study I pulled has found.... correlation but not causation in this study) .... 

but more in the area of cancers, endocrine disorders, other joint injuries, bladder and kidney stones.... I could go on and on.... 

the reason your vet mentioned the HD and CCL injuries is because that article came out in the June issue of the JAVMA journal..... 

However, whats done is done..... I am happy to share the citations and articles that I have collected with anyone who wants them.... just PM me with an email address as it is a large (25page) word file that is to big to send through PM..... 

however there is nothing you can do at this point.... just tuck the information away for future use..... 

S


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## CinnamintStick (Jul 25, 2008)

I am glad you posted this. I didn't know. I have a apointment to neuter my Neapolitan Mastiff/Border Collie in three weeks. He will be 14 weeks old. I wanted it done early because I don't want him agressive since we have other male (neutered) dogs. My neighbors male Mastiffs fight all the time.


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Here is something interesting. Before buying a puppy people may read the following on the Great Dane Club of America website, and where I think that they might somehow expect their young puppy to be *Already Spayed or Neutered*, see via this link and 2nd paragraph from the bottom:-
http://www.gdca.org/greatdanepurchase.htm

*Puppies Already Spayed or Neutered - A breeder who does this has a high level of dedication to preventing unwanted litters and should be applauded!*
.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Here is something interesting. Before buying a puppy people may read the following on the Great Dane Club of America website, and where I think that they might somehow expect their young puppy to be *Already Spayed or Neutered*, see via this link and 2nd paragraph from the bottom:-
> http://www.gdca.org/greatdanepurchase.htm
> 
> *Puppies Already Spayed or Neutered - A breeder who does this has a high level of dedication to preventing unwanted litters and should be applauded!*
> .


oh please..... its written by a vet whose main concern is birth control and not the health of the dog.... 

why don't you read some of the citations and articles I have offered to send???? 

Birth control is very important of course.... to be honest my vet who used to do pediatric spay and neuter has stopped doing it along with the majority of vets in this area.... because it just isn't good for the dog.... 

s


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> oh please..... its written by a vet whose main concern is birth control and not the health of the dog....
> 
> why don't you read some of the citations and articles I have offered to send????
> 
> ...


Have you considered that I may have already read the things you want to send to me.

Yeah it's written by a vet, and the Great Dane Club of America put it on their website. To me it appears that the majority of the club members agree to it being there and saying what it says.
.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Have you considered that I may have already read the things you want to send to me.
> 
> 
> .


No because if you had your statements would be more balanced and not so one sided and you would not automatically discount the numerous studies and the health impact of spaying and neutering early.... 

personally there are reasons to spay and neuter early ...... and there are reasons not to neuter at all..... I have had puppy people spay earlier than I require others to wait for various reasons..... 

however, people have the right to all the information so they can make the best decision for them and their dog.... and often they can't get that from the vet..... because vets are so wrapped up in birth control (again an important subject and not to be discounted) that they can't get ALL the information..... 

There is not a single study out there that shows that it is a good idea for dogs... the studies that do show benefits to spaying and neutering early were done on cats..... 

my new kitten is coming home neutered..... my current cat came home spayed.... 

the evidence is clear that spaying and neutering early in dogs especially large breed dogs is not a good idea..... 

if you had read the studies and citations and articles you would know that. 
s

oh yeah and here is the disclaimer on the GDCA site 
DISCLAIMER

The material(s) within this website are "AS IS" and without
warranties of any kind either expressed or implied. To the
fullest extent permissible pursuant to applicable law, we
disclaim all warranties, expressed or implied, including, but
not limited to, implied warranties of merchantability and
fitness for a particular purpose. We do not warrant that
the functions contained in the materials will be uninterrupted
or error-free, that defects will be corrected, or that this
website or the server that makes it available are free from
viruses or other harmful components. We do not warrant or
make any representations regarding the use or the results
of the use of the material within this website in terms of
their correctness, accuracy, reliability, or otherwise. You
(and not us) assume the entire cost of all necessary
servicing, repair or correction. Applicable law may not
allow the exclusion of implied warranties, so the above
exclusion may not apply to you.

Great Dane Club of America, Inc.


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## carrie_griffes (Jun 15, 2008)

amp9364 said:


> I saw a new vet today and she was great! The thing that is bothering me is she mentioned that there is research showing that neutering a large breed pup too early may increase the chance of hip dysplasia. Since I had never heard this before, my Berner was neutered at 4 months old. I am kind of worried now and kind of mad that the vet I was going to, which was a big animal hospital, didn't tell me this. I guess I should have done some research first but I never even though about it. Anyone have any input on this topic?


The good news is that you found a vet you like and who is willing to share information with you. In this spirit, whats done is done and you can't go back and change it so this is the thing she was trying to tell you; as the dog grows and develops, keep an eye out for signs that may indicate problems. Have the vet check his development regualarly for signs of these and other potential problems.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Shalva said:


> personally there are reasons to spay and neuter early ...... and there are reasons not to neuter at all..... I have had puppy people spay earlier than I require others to wait for various reasons.....
> 
> however, people have the right to all the information so they can make the best decision for them and their dog.... and often they can't get that from the vet..... because vets are so wrapped up in birth control (again an important subject and not to be discounted) that they can't get ALL the information.....


I decided a while ago that I would never neuter my male. He is two years old now and doesn't have any of the horrible male behaviors that are associated with intact dogs. He doesn't hump dogs or furniture, never marks in my house, and he doesn't roam all over Texas in search of a mate. 

But I also don't allow him to stay outside when I'm not home, and I check on him every ten to fifteen minutes when he is outside. He likes to sleep under the patio table in the sun.

People keep telling me that I'm irresponsible and that he will turn aggressive or disobedient. I'll I can say is it hasn't happened yet. I'm not going to put him through a procedure that can be detriment to his health in many different ways, if I have full confidence in being able to keep my dog safe and contained. 

But most people aren't able to do this for several reasons. They might give their dogs more freedom, or even don't want the added stress to owning an intact male. But that is their decision to make, and everyone has to make the choice they can live with. 

But on a side note, pray for me this month because Ollie just came into her first heat. Dusk has only seen her twice today, but each time acted like he just got a Christmas present. He keeps trying to chase her around the house, and she is lovin' the attention. The next couple of weeks should be interesting to say the least.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Quincy said:


> A thought, instead of "traditional canine spay/neutering" where with these hormones seem a concern with your dogs, why not discuss with your veterinarian alternatives which I hear do NOT affect hormones, such as:-
> 
> In males - Vasectomy: The snipping and tying of the vasa deferentia (plural of vas deferens) as a sterilization measure.
> 
> ...


Oh dang... I honestly did not know they could do that. I wonder if our vet would... thank you for the thought.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> Oh dang... I honestly did not know they could do that. I wonder if our vet would... thank you for the thought.


they can do it.... 

it is an easy surgery compared to a traditional neuter and it does not prevent the behaviors.... 

a dog will still roam.... and he will still go nuts around a bitch in season.... 

in a female a tubal will not stop the risk of pyometra, nor will it stop heat cycles 

it merely takes care of the risk of pregnancy..... 
s


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> I decided a while ago that I would never neuter my male. He is two years old now and doesn't have any of the horrible male behaviors that are associated with intact dogs. He doesn't hump dogs or furniture, never marks in my house, and he doesn't roam all over Texas in search of a mate.
> 
> But I also don't allow him to stay outside when I'm not home, and I check on him every ten to fifteen minutes when he is outside. He likes to sleep under the patio table in the sun.
> 
> ...


Your post makes a lot of sense. 

You should ask those people so what do breeders do? Why are their dogs not aggressive nor disobedient. It is funny how someone will want to put you down as irresponsible and tell you how bad your boy is going to act. Yet responsible breeders have intact dogs who have good temperaments and obedience training. They are able to do it with several dogs at once. A truly responsible pet owner should be able to handle 1 or 2 dogs, that is if they are truly responsible.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Shalva said:


> they can do it....
> 
> it is an easy surgery compared to a traditional neuter and it does not prevent the behaviors....
> 
> ...


Oh okay, well thank you for clearing that up Shalva... then I will go through with Callahans full neuter when he is 1 and a half. I do not like roaming dogs... and Jade will have her full spay. Thanks for letting me know.
Nessa


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## CinnamintStick (Jul 25, 2008)

I was told that breeders require dogs to be spay and neutered before they leave the breeder to keep the price up with supply and demand for the puppies. Some say it is because the puppies are pet quality. Shouldn't breeders only breed if they are improving the breed? Maybe it is there dogs that need to be spayed and neutered.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

CinnamintStick said:


> I was told that breeders require dogs to be spay and neutered before they leave the breeder to keep the price up with supply and demand for the puppies. Some say it is because the puppies are pet quality. Shouldn't breeders only breed if they are improving the breed? Maybe it is there dogs that need to be spayed and neutered.


keep in mind that even if breeders are improving the breed there are still mostly pet puppies in a litter and maybe 1 or 2 show pups..... 

You only want the best of the best to contribute their genes to the gene pool so even the most responsible puppy is goign to have majority of pet puppies. 

In my last litter I had 3 show puppies out of 7, 2 boys and a girl, I had a great performance pup, but the rest of the pups were what I would consider pet puppies.... now yes they are all working and yes they all are great performance dogs... but of that litter there are only a few I would want to see bred.

*Oh and just to be clear *

I emailed the Great Dane Club of America with regard to the article they have online which talks about spaying and neutering early....... it is the one that is in Quincy's response to me..... 

I asked them to please clarify this because that is not what I had heard and I would like to know there stand on that statement that appears on the Club website....

here is the response that I got..... 

[email protected] wrote:
> Greetings. The benefits of early neutering are mostly concerned with population control in a group sense, and individual convenience otherwise (earlier is both cheaper for the owner as well as avoids a messy season in female dogs). But most experienced Dane breeders and veterinarians as well recommend Dane/giant dogs who are pets are spayed/neutered around one year of age. 8-9 months is considered by most the lowest "safe" age, given that by this point, when many females are due to come into their first heat, the dogs have therefore reached early sexual maturity (i.e. puberty). "Early" (pediatric) spay/neuter in giant dogs is associated with a significant increase in several diseases that plague the breed, to include bone cancer, thyroid disease and bloat/torsion, and it often results in a distortion of the dog's conformation, which can affect soundness/health issues and not just looks.
>
> So generally if the animal is not in rescue or some other situation where population control measures are a priority, it is best to wait. As this is a giant breed, the rules here (as in many areas) are a bit different, as you noted. Although most dog breeds *do* reach sexual maturity at 5-7 months, but it is practically unheard of for a Dane to come into season/have viable sperm before 7-9 months, so this breed simply matures more slowly, and actually isn't the same "age" as another, smaller dog that is 6 months old, hence, assumably, the reason behind this good general advice not necessarily being so good for Danes. This trend I think is widely recognized, and the past decade has offered some alarming statistics about pediatric/early spay/neuter, so most recommend against rushing into this. I'm not sure what article you are referring to, but admittedly a lot at that website on health and welfare is out of date. I will again bring this issue to the attention of those who control the content (my only job anymore is as you see it, answering questions here), and if you can direct me specifically to the article in question, that would be of help. jp
>
> Best regards, JP Yousha
> Health and Research Committee
> Great Dane Club of America
> http://www.gdca.org/healthandwelfare.htm
> [email protected]


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## amp9364 (Feb 19, 2007)

Thank you for all the replies! What is done is done and I will remember this for the future. For now I will just keep an eye on my little guy and watch for any signs. I'm hoping for the best, I would hate for him to have bone problems. Again, thanks!


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I emailed the Great Dane Club of America with regard to the article they have online which talks about spaying and neutering early....... it is the one that is in Quincy's response to me.....


Thanks for the clarification on Great Dane pets are spayed/neutered around one year of age and 8-9 months is considered by most the lowest "safe" age, and I feel that would be by traditional spay neutering, but with alternative means such as Vasectomy and Tubal Ligation that lowest “safe” age I feel maybe somewhat lower. Anyway, when the Great Dane Club update their website maybe they might get that vet to update their article regarding spay neutering to what applies to Great Danes as it’s on a page that Great Dane puppy seekers may tend to read.
.


Shalva said:


> there is increasing evidence that spaying and neutering early is a problem.....
> 
> it doesnt stunt growth but rather causes the growth plates to close later....
> 
> ...


Spaying and neutering at any age there is the potential for problems, and by not spay neutering there is also the potential for problems. But in regards to hip dysplasia it’s interesting that you mentioned "correlation but not causation in this study", maybe that might need some clarification as that's what started this thread. In regards to hip dysplasia maybe the original poster might like to look back in their dog’s lines for any evidence of hip dysplasia, particularly as so many DNA chromosomes have already been identified for hip dysplasia which is a common hereditary developmental disease, and I see that Great Danes are also involved:-
http://www.gdca.org/health/caninehipstudy.htm

To add in regards to hip dysplasia, I also see some other breeds involved in DNA studies even Bernese Mountain Dogs, see breeds on the list at this place:-
http://www.vetgen.com/research-genetic-disease.html
.


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## Pickleisaminidaschi (Jun 25, 2008)

tirluc said:


> i know there are alot of different opinions out there on the "pros/cons of when to neuter....i personally like my girls to go thru one season and my boys to be at least 9 mo (preferably a yr)...
> 
> but, i have heard that as well....along w/ other growth problems....



I say the same


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

One thing to keep in mind, of course, is that if you do decide to keep your dog intact (you being a general term here), you are definitely accepting that much more responsibility...and need to be aware and prepared for that responsibility. 



amp9364 said:


> Thank you for all the replies! What is done is done and I will remember this for the future.


That's pretty much how I feel about Webster now...someone reminded me, when I was regretting my decision to neuter him at one year, that we can only do the best we can with the knowledge we have at any given time...we just need to keep asking questions and learning more so we can do better.


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## moptart (Jul 31, 2008)

I have a 6 month male miniature poodle that I plan to neuter closer to 1 year of age. Based on my experience with my previous male standard poodle, whom I neutered at the early age of 5 months, I believe there is something to the research pointing to an association between early neutering, hip dysplacia and osteosarcoma. 

When my standard poodle passed away at the age of 11 from osteosarcoma, I started researching the disease and found that early neutering can be the culprit especially in large breed dogs. Also, like some of the earlier posters said--hip dysplasia can be a result of early neutering especially in breeds with a propensity to develop hip dysplasia. The dogs (especially) males need testosterone to regulate growth, otherwise you end up will taller dogs. 

Also, another Standard poodle in my neigborhood died of osteosarcoma at the age of 8. I know these are anecdotes, but I suggest everyone read the research and discuss this with your vet before automatically scheduling early neutering.


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

moptart said:


> I believe there is something to the research pointing to an association between early neutering, hip dysplacia and osteosarcoma.


Maybe you should include some research into the following about hip dysplasia, and maybe similarly so with osteosarcoma where there has been correlations with genetic predisposition to tumor development in certain family lines, anyway the following about hip dyslasia and first cab at the rank is German Shepherds, and in regards to those gene locations they have already started looking at them in some other breeds:-
http://www.springerlink.com/content/j77412027k451553/

Yvonne Marschall1 and Ottmar Distl1
Ottmar Distl - Email: [email protected]
(1) Institute for Animal Breeding and Genetics, University of Veterinary Medicine, Bünteweg 17 p, 30559 Hannover, Germany
Received: 11 May 2007 Accepted: 25 September 2007 Published online: 20 November 2007

Abstract Canine hip dysplasia (CHD) is a common hereditary developmental disease of the coxofemoral joints. CHD is characterized by subluxation of the femoral head and deformation of the acetabulum leading to a painful osteoarthrosis. Analyses of mode of inheritance have shown the involvement of a major gene in expression of CHD in German Shepherd dogs. Thus, a whole genome scan for quantitative trait loci (QTL) was performed in German Shepherd dogs. For this purpose 11 paternal half-sib families, including a total of 459 purebred German Shepherd dogs with sires, dams, and offspring, were genotyped for 261 microsatellites. These markers were equidistantly distributed over all 38 autosomes and the X chromosome with an average marker distance of 11.7 cM. The mean observed heterozygosity of the marker set was 50%. The CHD status for the dogs was scored according to the official rules of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale. At the genome-wide level of significance at p < 0.05, QTL for CHD were located on nine different canine chromosomes: 1, 3, 4, 8, 9, 16, 19, 26, and 33. The minimal QTL regions containing the CHD genes spanned on average 5 Mb with a range between 1 and 8.2 Mb. Chromosome-wide level of significance at p < 0.05 was found for QTL on 19 chromosomes. Further analyses can now be performed to refine these map positions of QTL already identified in German Shepherd dogs.
.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Maybe you should include some research into the following about hip dysplasia, and maybe similarly so with osteosarcoma where there has been correlations with genetic predisposition to tumor development in certain family lines, anyway the following about hip dyslasia and first cab at the rank is German Shepherds, and in regards to those gene locations they have already started looking at them in some other breeds:-
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/j77412027k451553/
> 
> Yvonne Marschall1 and Ottmar Distl1
> ...



I think this is what the AKC article states ...... that people have to make their decisions based on their breed of dog and what they are willing to deal with ..... 

For example..... I have Flat Coats as you know..... a breed with a high genetic risk of multiple cancers.... the average flat coat lives to be 7 due to cancer. Now we do know there is a genetic base to this problem and research is currently being done..... however, there has been correlations between castration and increased cancers.... so in a breed like the flat coat why increase their already high risk...... 

for HD we know that certain breeds have an already high risk of HD due to genetics (but we also know that there are multiple other causes of HD as well) so take a breed like a golden retriever, or GSD that already is predisposed to HD and then increase that risk by neutering.... 

that is the whole issue in this whole discussion.... 

people need to have all the information and then make a decision about their dog for them and their dog based on the evidence and the risk..... 

yes there is always a risk in everything we do..... we can only make the best decisions we can based on the information that we have..... 

I have said it before but.... when I got my first show dog.... I was panicked.... here I am not spaying because I want to play a game..... and I was risking my dogs health and welfare because of this game..... and go online and try and research this and it is nearly impossible to get anything that balances the s/n propaganda out there...... Thats when I started talking to people and collecting citations..... 

I didn't like that this information about the deleterious effects of spaying and neutering were not discussed.....I didn't like how people give you the hairy eyeball when they see my dogs are intact..... and yet there is quite a bit of information out there that states that spaying and neutering may not be the panacea for every known behavioral problem there is (despite what you read and the vets say) and there might be some really legitimate reasons to either not neuter (particularly) at all..... 

People need the information.... then they can take that....weigh the information... in conjunction wiht the breed they have and make a decision about what is best for them and their dog. 

i also think we have to remember that while a doggie vasectomy is available, it does not inhibit marking.... or wandering... or going nuts over a girl in season or a girl who just had a bath (like my boys do) because the hormones are still present... all it does is take care of the pregnancy risk.... 

in a tubal ligation again we are talking about taking care of a pregnancy risk... but not the risk of a pyometra, and heat cycles are still present... and male dogs will still come to visit because the heat cycles are still present.... 

so those are not the end all answer either. 


s


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> for HD we know that certain breeds have an already high risk of HD due to genetics (but we also know that there are multiple other causes of HD as well) so take a breed like a golden retriever, or GSD that already is predisposed to HD and then increase that risk by neutering....


Shalva, it’s apparent we have some different views on Hip Dysplasia which is a common hereditary developmental disease. As I’ve mentioned before, in the near future I'd be really interested in seeing study results on dogs that have been DNA Hip Dysplasia tested CLEAR, then Spay Neutered, then later again DNA Hip Dysplasia tested to see if their DNA result status changed. Somehow I think their DNA Hip Dysplasia status will NOT change due to Spay Neutering and where this may pose some questions regarding some previous studies, and including studies that correlated data which appeared to coincidentally link Spay Neutering with Hip Dysplasia. Maybe Spay Neutering just might trigger Hip Dysplasia genes, but if the dog does NOT have Hip Dysplasia genes then obviously they cannot have Hip Dysplasia and where there is no need to worry about any triggers that might trigger Hip Dysplasia. I think similarly in relation to some other hereditary diseases, and which I might include Osteosarcoma.
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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Shalva, it’s apparent we have some different views on Hip Dysplasia which is a common hereditary developmental disease. As I’ve mentioned before, in the near future I'd be really interested in seeing study results on dogs that have been DNA Hip Dysplasia tested CLEAR, then Spay Neutered, then later again DNA Hip Dysplasia tested to see if their DNA result status changed. Somehow I think their DNA Hip Dysplasia status will NOT change due to Spay Neutering and where this may pose some questions regarding some previous studies, and including studies that correlated data which appeared to coincidentally link Spay Neutering with Hip Dysplasia. Maybe Spay Neutering just might trigger Hip Dysplasia genes, but if the dog does NOT have Hip Dysplasia genes then obviously they cannot have Hip Dysplasia and where there is no need to worry about any triggers that might trigger Hip Dysplasia. I think similarly in relation to some other hereditary diseases, and which I might include Osteosarcoma.
> .


simply because you are dealing with the future and maybe someday and I am dealing with the current situation as it stands. 

There is no DNA test for hip dysplasia and to be honest I doubt there will be in the same way there is no DNA test of patellar luxation and other multi-polygenic nasties.... 

Not to mention that if you have spent years mulling over and studying pedigrees you will see that there are no sure bets in dog breeding at all..... I have spent years studying pedigrees of my breeds..... 

now as technology changes my views may change but right now I am dealing with the situation as it currently is and you are talking about ..... someday maybe..... 

very very different starting places..... 

s


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> simply because you are dealing with the future and maybe someday and I am dealing with the current situation as it stands.
> 
> There is no DNA test for hip dysplasia and to be honest I doubt there will be in the same way there is no DNA test of patellar luxation and other multi-polygenic nasties....
> 
> ...


As the DNA chromosomes have already been found for Hip Dysplasia and further refining of the map positions is being carried out, I think that in time we will see a commercially available DNA test for Hip Dysplasia. Till DNA testing becomes commercially available, I think that the best one can do at the moment is to look back in the lines for a number of generations at hip test results such as on OFA, and some breeders have been hip testing for quite a few generations, and I think by doing so will give an indication if there is any Hip Dysplasia within the lines. Say if for at least 5 to 10 generations there was good test results with NO Hip Dysplasia then I think that the odds would be there may not be any affected Hip Dysplasia genes, and in such cases I don’t think that such dogs would suddenly have Hip Dysplasia if they were Spay Neutered.
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