# Absolutely at my wit's end because of this dog - considering using a shock collar.



## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

Hello.

I got an Alaskan Klee Kai about 6 months ago. He has severe separation anxiety and I have done everything I could to use positive reinforcement to stop it and make him like his crate and like being away. I tried leaving for very short amounts of time and then immediately coming back so I could work up to him being able to handle longer. Every time I leave him alone or put him in his crate, I give him a kong filled with his favorite treat. I tried feeding him in his crate, playing crate loving exercises. Most importantly, since the day I got him I have NEVER given him attention or let him out of his crate unless he was quiet. [clarification] To those of you who were offended by the negative reinforcement tactics I have used: I can assure you they were, in no way, inhumanely used. I am very against negative reinforcement and have always used positive reinforcement in every single way I can. I have read a lot on several forums about what to do about stopping crate barking and got a lot on penny cans, firmly yelling "HUSH", using water, or some who even suggest things such as smacking/shaking the crate. The only two I attempted were to firmly yell "HUSH" and to try a squirt bottle for one night, but I felt as if they upset him more and haven't used them since (I also don't want him to fear me/water). Perhaps I should have worded my post better; I am not running in the room screaming at the top of my lungs, ever hurting him, etc. I tried the two I listed above, they didn't work for me, and that's the last I'll say on the manor.


It has gotten to the point where my neighbors, roommates, grandparents I am currently staying with, and my coworkers absolutely despise me. At night time, the dog barks for hours until he makes himself fall asleep. Then he wakes up a few hours later, and continues to bark. The only thing that will make him stop barking, is if he is allowed to sleep with me. But if I allow him to sleep with me I am completely unable to sleep - I don't like sleeping with dogs on my bed, and he wakes up at whatever time he pleases and tries to wake me up or howls at the door. I understand that he is a puppy, and so usually do something to exercise him until he is exhausted (dog park, hour long walk, etc) to the point where he is so tired you can essentially pick him up and do anything and he'll continue to sleep. Yet, somehow, as soon as he goes in the crate he musters up all the energy to howl for as long as he can and then sleeps the next day while he's with me.

Because he got out of his crate (I forgot to put a lock on it) and destroyed the room he was in while they were gone, my grandparents told me I needed to bring him to work. I was hoping being around other dogs (I work at an animal clinic) would calm him. He didn't howl - he _screamed_ the entire 8 hours I was there while he was in a crate. Not because he was in a crate for 8 hours - he had previous exercise before work, and the absolute second I placed him in the crate and walked away he began his barking. Not only was it annoying for everyone there (clients included, many complained) but it was embarrassing for me. Not only this, but while he's out of his crate he barks constantly at any single noise in the house. If someone comes to the door he's off on a tangent, barking like a mad dog. [2nd clarification] see other post

Right now, I have to get up at 6:30 am and he is down there screaming and crying. I am at my wits end. I absolutely love this dog while he is with me and being good. I am an extremely patient person, but get horrible intrusive thoughts while I am running on 5 or so hours of sleep (if that) every night because of him. I am at the point where I need sleep so badly that I am almost considering placing his crate outside (my grandparents live far away from neighbors) but cannot do that in good conscious because of how cold it is. Instead, I am seriously considering going as early as I can to get a shock collar. I have always been strongly against their use, but I really don't know what to do anymore. Please help!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

coopaloop said:


> Hello.
> 
> I got an Alaskan Klee Kai about 6 months ago. He has severe separation anxiety and I have done everything I could to use positive reinforcement to stop it and make him like his crate and like being away. I tried leaving for very short amounts of time and then immediately coming back so I could work up to him being able to handle longer. Every time I leave him alone or put him in his crate, I give him a kong filled with his favorite treat. I tried feeding him in his crate, playing crate loving exercises. Most importantly, since the day I got him I have NEVER given him attention or let him out of his crate unless he was quiet. Admittedly, me and my roommates have snapped several times over these 6 months and gone in there to yell or throw water or do anything we can to stop this bad behavior (usually when we have an 8 am test).
> 
> ...


When it comes to separation anxiety, a shock collar is not an option. The dog is already terrified, and you're going to add an electrical shock to that? It's going to get worse, not better.

This dog sounds like a good candidate for medication. Instead of going to the store for a shock collar tomorrow, take the dog to the vet.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Sorry I just skimmed the thread so if the answer is in there I apologise, but how much exercise is he getting?


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> When it comes to separation anxiety, a shock collar is not an option. The dog is already terrified, and you're going to add an electrical shock to that? It's going to get worse, not better.
> 
> This dog sounds like a good candidate for medication. Instead of going to the store for a shock collar tomorrow, take the dog to the vet.


I work at a vet. We discussed the options, and she thinks that it's worth a shot. Medication can get pretty expensive and it's a more permanent option, isn't it?



> Sorry I just skimmed the thread so if the answer is in there I apologise, but how much exercise is he getting?


He is getting a lot. Daily walks, try to bring him to the dog park every other day, stimulating things such as training, if I'm particularity busy he goes to a doggy day care (which is really expensive for me). I am a college student and have a very busy schedule, but I dedicate a lot of time to him and he is rarely in his crate during the day.


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## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

How is he with other dogs for long periods of time? Have you tried letting him sleep along side of another dog?


My bloodhound hated the crate, I tried the treats and praise inside and he completely ignored them. He would scratch and try to bite his way out and I felt AWFUL since it was scratching his nose. I learned to do small amounts of time, instead of just leaving him in the crate until he was quiet because usually by then, his nose was a mess. I would slowly increase the time, 2 minutes, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, and he learned that I wasn't leaving forever. I also started by staying in the same room, moving towards the door, outside the door, and then in a different part of the house. It took me about a week of this training and he is happily sleeping in the crate right now.


I'm sure there is a plethora of crate training help, but that's my experience. I would personally stay away from the shock collar. I would also try teaching him 'quiet'. My bloodhound is very vocal, so instructing him 'quiet' when he would howl was extremely helpful! (This can be trained outside the crate, but used as a tool when he's inside)


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

coopaloop said:


> I work at a vet. We discussed the options, and she thinks that it's worth a shot.


With all due respect to your employer, you do know that vets are seldom the best source for behavioural advice, right ? If you're finding your current situation overwhelming, then I would ask her for a referral to a specialist.

In the meantime, read _"Don't Leave Me!"_ by Nicole Wilde, and _"I'll Be Home Soon"_ by Pat McConnell.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

coopaloop said:


> I work at a vet. We discussed the options, and she thinks that it's worth a shot. Medication can get pretty expensive and it's a more permanent option, isn't it?


Annnnnnnd this is why I avoid vets when I can, especially for things like this. Vets are medical professionals, not behaviorists. 


A shock collar is RARELY the solution for ANYTHING. It more often than not creates more problems than it solves, and many times it only creates a fear response. 
For this situation, a shock collar (including a manual one, a bark collar or citronella one) is NOT the answer and more than likely will make this problem worse. When he cries, he's going to be hurt, then when he gets hurt, he's going to want to be with you even more, which will cause him to get hurt again and until something gives. Either this dog is going to shut down or it's going to keep on until it's severely damaged. 


Try giving Melatonin (which you can buy in pharmacies, even in the dollar store) first to see if that can ease his anxiety. If it doesn't, then consider vet-prescribed medication. If you can't afford it... consider rehoming him to someone who can. 

The question 'how much exercise is he getting' is more in terms of, literally, how many times a day do you exercise him, and for how long. How much time have you spent on training, etc.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

HollowHeaven said:


> Annnnnnnd this is why I avoid vets when I can, especially for things like this. Vets are medical professionals, not behaviorists.


Completely agree. *sigh* I'm glad vets are giving out such terrible information nowadays.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If it's truly separation anxiety (and it sounds like it is), every single thing you've been doing has been making it worse. I mean, it's anxiety, not misbehavior. He can't help it. Like someone with PTSD who's having a meltdown because he heard helicopters (or whatever) and someone goes in and smacks him, yells at him, or throws water on him :/. Or uses a shock collar. It's just not going to make things better. 

I do think medication is the only option at this point. Desensitization exercises may have worked at an earlier time but I think he's past that point now.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

So . . . he gets left alone in the crate, until someone goes in and screams at him or throws water on him? And he'd love to sleep with you, but you don't like that? And you'd prefer shocking him to medication.

Just rehome him.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

coopaloop said:


> Not only this, but while he's out of his crate he barks constantly at any single noise in the house. If someone comes to the door he's off on a tangent, barking like a mad dog. *I started pushing him to his side on the ground (not meanly) and firmly saying "NO" and not letting go until he stops, but he wouldn't stop even if I held him for 30 minutes. I also tried giving him a light smack on the nose (which I hate doing) but this also does nothing.*


good lord, I didn't even see this part until re-reading it.

I'm going to go ahead and say again, try Melatonin, and if it doesn't work, try vet prescribed medication. 
Add to exercise, and teaching a 'quiet' command, and NOT by forcing him down or smacking him. 

If you can't handle it, rehome him.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Being a rare breed, I expect the breeder would want him back if you can't keep him. You might also contact the breeder to ask what he/she does about anxiety, as Klee Kai are pretty well known for being somewhat nervous.


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## Kobismom (Dec 17, 2012)

coopaloop said:


> I work at a vet. We discussed the options, and she thinks that it's worth a shot. Medication can get pretty expensive and it's a more permanent option, isn't it?


Not necessarily... I had a anxious, angry kitten and everyone told me to put him down. We tried everything and finally got to a point where medications had to be used. We finally found a vet who was willing to prescribe Prozac. We gave him 30 days worth, 2 times/day. It mellowed him out completely while on the meds. 

After 30 days, we stopped the Prozac and waited to see what happened. He ended up being a happy cat until his later days, when he began to regress to those angry days.. but we still had many happy years with him... I don't have him now only because of divorce... not because of his aggression.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Kobismom said:


> Not necessarily... I had a anxious, angry kitten and everyone told me to put him down. We tried everything and finally got to a point where medications had to be used. We finally found a vet who was willing to prescribe Prozac. We gave him 30 days worth, 2 times/day. It mellowed him out completely while on the meds.
> 
> After 30 days, we stopped the Prozac and waited to see what happened. He ended up being a happy cat until his later days, when he began to regress to those angry days.. but we still had many happy years with him... I don't have him now only because of divorce... not because of his aggression.


I've also heard of animals (and people) on medications who can use it for so long then start to mellow out to the point where they don't need it anymore.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Being a rare breed, I expect the breeder would want him back if you can't keep him. You might also contact the breeder to ask what he/she does about anxiety, as Klee Kai are pretty well known for being somewhat nervous.


YES. Thank you for being a voice of reason among all of these "rehome him" comments. Guys, this is a rare breed. The AKK community is small. The breeders all know each other, and many of us buyers are friends with them as well. AKK do not go into rescue or get randomly rehomed if we can help it. They MUST be returned to the breeder if the buyer no longer wants them.

OP, I have an AKK as well. He also has SA, although not as bad as yours. I get how frustrating it is. I honestly think that the best choice for you, personally, would be to return him to his breeder, as it doesn't sound like you have the time or patience to deal with this issue. Who did you get him from?


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

I also vote for speaking to the dog's breeder as well as simply considering bringing it back to the breeder for them to rehome.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

coopaloop said:


> I work at a vet. We discussed the options, and she thinks that it's worth a shot. Medication can get pretty expensive and it's a more permanent option, isn't it?


Well I AM a vet and I think it's a terrible idea.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Medication, both for animals and humans, are typically best used in conjunction with behavior modification therapy (or mental health therapy, but talk therapy doesn't work with animals ). You give the meds so that the brain can chill out enough to learn new behaviors, and then you teach the new behaviors, then much of the time, you can then slowly wean off the medication. 

I understand that money may be tight, school is expensive, vets offices don't pay a ton -- but you got a rare breed dog six months ago, that could not have been inexpensive. I don't think people give away Alaskan Klee Kais in supermarket parking lots. I can't imagine investing so much into a dog when you do not have sufficient resources to provide for his care - and behavioral health is part of his care. 

Is there any way to make a safe room for him that is NOT the crate? My dog wigged out at the crate at first, so we put his crate in an expen, then gradually shrunk it until he could barely step out of the crate, but by then, he didn't care cause he went right into the crate when you put him in the pen, so we started shutting the door, took away the pen, and all was fine. An expen is probably not appropriate for your dog since he could probably jump it (mine is a dachshund mix, so he could not), but a dog proofed room with minimal furnishing might work better than the crate. He seems pretty traumatized by it now, and it will take some work to get him to relax about it.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> YES. Thank you for being a voice of reason among all of these "rehome him" comments.


Wouldn't returning the dog to the breeder be a method of rehoming?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> Wouldn't returning the dog to the breeder be a method of rehoming?


No. "Rehoming" means finding a dog a new home. Returning to the breeder is just that. The breeder knows what's best for the dogs they produce and will be the best person to find the dog a suitable new home.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Well I AM a vet and I think it's a terrible idea.


Why? While I agree returning the dog to breeder is the best option in this case, why do you think it's a "terrible" idea? The case seems pretty severe, to me it seems medication might help calm the dog enough for training to stick.


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## AKKTerry (Jan 3, 2013)

Don't know if it's been posted before or not... have you dicussed this with the breeder?

Also, if you'd like a copy of the AKK News which has two articles on SA, send me you email address and I'll be happy to send it.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> I've also heard of animals (and people) on medications who can use it for so long then start to mellow out to the point where they don't need it anymore.


6 weeks of anti-anxiety meds every 18 months works for me.

I said rehome rather than return to breeder because I find it hard to believe a reputable breeder placed a puppy with this guy. But, yeah, call the breeder, see if they will take him back.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Why? While I agree returning the dog to breeder is the best option in this case, why do you think it's a "terrible" idea? The case seems pretty severe, to me it seems medication might help calm the dog enough for training to stick.


I believe that sassafras was referring to a shock collar being a terrible option, not medication. The OP said that their vet thought the shock collar was worth a try, and doesn't want to go to medication first because it's more "permanent."

I agree that, if the OP has the time and patience, medication is an option. If not, the breeder will take the dog back.



Amaryllis said:


> I said rehome rather than return to breeder because I find it hard to believe a reputable breeder placed a puppy with this guy. But, yeah, call the breeder, see if they will take him back.


That is not your call to make. I know you probably don't know a lot about the AKK community, but there aren't many breeders out there in general, let alone disreputable ones. AKK also VERY rarely end up in rescue. The AKK National Rescue has more than 700 applicants, yet only gets a few dogs per year, if that. AKK breeders take care of their own.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

RaeganW said:


> Why? While I agree returning the dog to breeder is the best option in this case, why do you think it's a "terrible" idea? The case seems pretty severe, to me it seems medication might help calm the dog enough for training to stick.


I had to read the original statement a few times myself -- I believe the SHOCK COLLAR is a terrible idea; not the meds!


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## Tesoroakk (Jan 3, 2013)

Please notify your breeder regrding the issues with your puppy. Most of us breeders do know each other and we are all willing to help each other and our pet parents. Also, check your contract as there is almost certainly a clause that you must return the pup to its breeder. We, as a group, are trying very hard to make sure that the pups we bring into this world do not end up in shelters. We really want to do right by our babies and the people who adopt them. If your dog has this bad of a problem, rehoming it will likely cause it to end up in a shelter situation because most people will not have the time, patience, or knowledge to correct the issue. If you want to email me privately, please feel free. I will help you any way I can. The sooner you move to start correcting the problem, even if it to get it back to the breeder, the better for the puppy. If you really love him and want what is best for him...call the breeder asap!

Christine


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## Tesoro (Jan 3, 2013)

Contact your breeder. You paid a lot of money for that dog and the breeder should be able to suggest some ideas. These dogs are sold on a strict contract basis so check your contract regarding return of the puppy or re-homing. Either way your breeder should be your first contact regarding what to do.


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## Sunbeam163 (Jan 3, 2013)

Please contact the breeder! They will be able to advise you or take the dog back.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Why? While I agree returning the dog to breeder is the best option in this case, why do you think it's a "terrible" idea? The case seems pretty severe, to me it seems medication might help calm the dog enough for training to stick.


No, I think the shock collar is a terrible idea. Did I quote it wonky? I was sort of in a hurry.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> No, I think the shock collar is a terrible idea. Did I quote it wonky? I was sort of in a hurry.


OH that makes so much more sense! It was my bad, I took the original line "my vet thinks this is an option" to be in reference to medication, not the shock collar.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> So . . . he gets left alone in the crate, until someone goes in and screams at him or throws water on him? And he'd love to sleep with you, but you don't like that? And you'd prefer shocking him to medication.
> 
> Just rehome him.


^^This. Completely. My heart breaks for this poor dog.


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## MiniMaligator (Jan 3, 2013)

Honestly, try a bark collar if that is what your vet recommends. Is this the vet at the clinic where you work? If they've actually seen the dog then they are in a much better position to give advice than anyone here. As long as that dog keeps barking he's going to keep working himself up and stressing himself out and it's a vicious cycle. Put a bark collar on him and give him a kong filled with goodies or a a knuckle bone. If he can't bark and stress himself out, he might just turn to his toys for stress relief and eventually learn to be fine in the crate. Feed him all his food in the crate, every meal. Every time you give him a bone, do so in the crate. Have a new toy? Jazz him up, toss it in the back of the crate and say "crate". Heck, you can even smear the walls with peanut butter. Here's a review I found from a vendor that sells bark collars:

"I just wanted to contact you and say thank you for your excellent advice. My dog, a year old Weimaraner, had a severe problem with separation anxiety in the crate. He would bark for 8 hours almost non-stop, he had daily accidents in the crate, and broke through no less than 3 crates in only 6 months. I contacted vets, our trainer and his breeder and their advice (radio, treats, long walks, lavender oil, in-crate corrections, etc.) did nothing to calm is panic attacks in the crate--until we took your advice with the Tri Tronics Bark Limiter.

The first month was rough. The dog continually tested the collar until we got to level 4 and it was heart wrenching to hear his yelps when he tried to bark with the collar on. However, today, six months after we first put the collar on him, he shows no signs at all of his former self. He trots happily into the crate when we say "get in your crate" and lays down and goes to sleep. No more accidents, no more barking, no more freaking out. By stopping his barking we apparently calmed his mind as well. It's hard to believe it's the same dog.

We were literally at our wits end six months ago. Our neighbors were ready to sue us, we were hosing out his crate at 10PM to clean up his messes, and waking up at 5AM to try to walk him and tire him out before putting him in the crate. I'm not sure what we would have done if it continued. So from all of us--THANK YOU! 

Regards,
Liz and "Dieter"


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

MiniMaligator said:


> The first month was rough. The dog continually tested the collar until we got to level 4 and it was heart wrenching to hear his yelps when he tried to bark with the collar on.


That is seriously upsetting to read and makes my skin crawl. I just don't even know what to say... disgusting.


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

There are a lot of comments in this thread that appeared overnight, so I apologize if I don't get to all of them.

Firstly AKKTerry that would be amazing, thank you. I will PM you my e-mail.

To all of you suggesting rehoming or giving back to the breeder, as I said in my post I am an extremely patient person and will not give up a dog I raised because of a few issues. I love him very much and came here for advice on working with his social anxiety, I have no plans on giving up on him despite the troubles I am having.

To those of you who were offended by the negative reinforcement tactics I have used: I can assure you they were, in no way, inhumanely used. I am very against negative reinforcement and have always used positive reinforcement in every single way I can. I have read a lot on several forums about what to do about stopping crate barking and got a lot on penny cans, firmly yelling "HUSH", using water, or some who even suggest things such as smacking/shaking the crate. The only two I attempted were to firmly yell "HUSH" and to try a squirt bottle for one night, but I felt as if they upset him more and haven't used them since (I also don't want him to fear me/water). Perhaps I should have worded my post better; I am not running in the room screaming at the top of my lungs, ever hurting him, etc. I tried the two I listed above, they didn't work for me, and that's the last I'll say on the manor. 

BCosta - I really like that idea, and I would like to try it more but need to get him to like his crate more first. Firstly, I am wondering if his crate is too small. It's big enough that he can get up and turn around in, but he's not pooping/peeing in it (or the house) anymore so I would really like to increase it's size unless you all think it's a bad idea. I am trying to feed him in it every day, but he will not eat for the entire morning if it's in there and then during dinner time he will jump in, take a bite, jump out, etc. Should I wait until he stays in there and eats the whole thing without leaving (this would probably take a few months) before moving on to getting closer to the crate? If I even get close to the crate, he stays as far away from it as he can.

Amaryllis - Oh please, you are purposely trying to over dramatize everything I say to make it seem the worst way possible. I came here for advice, not to be criticized. I give him tough love (which is something that is taught on this website) - when he is barking, he gets NO attention until he quiets down. I also said that ONCE I yelled for him to be quiet/tried using a squirt bottle. I explained very clearly why he does not sleep with me at night, and told you that the reason I was contemplating a collar over medication was because it was not permanent in my eyes. I understand if you disagree with something that I say, but you can tell me so in a way that offers helpful advice.

petpeeve - Thank you for the book advice, I will buy these. I'll also see about asking for a specialist.

HollowHeaven - Thank you, I see exactly what you are saying and will avoid a shock collar. I was always under the impression that negative reinforcement worked, I just tried to avoid it because I want a strong bond with my dog and never wanted to hurt him physically. I try to do an hour of good, hard exercise every day (run, long walk, dog park) and then an hour of training. With how much I work, this is the best I can do. If I can't meet those two hours, I will send him to puppy day care for the day even though I have trouble affording it. Keep in mind - when I say light smack, if we are being wordy it's more of a tap on the nose. I have never physically hit my dog or caused pain to him. Is putting him on his side not good?? He responds really well for that, it's more of a "calm down" than anything. If he is freaking out, restraining him on his side has caused him to calm down immediately. It does not work for his barking, though, even if I were to hold him for 30 minutes I doubt he would stop.

Kobismom - Thanks for that information. I will look into medication if it's not permanent. I don't want him to rely on having to take medication every single time I step out of the house, but maybe if it was used he could eventually be weaned off of it. It just seems like such a serious and permanent step to take, but I think it's the only step I have left. HollowHeaven, if I kept him on medicine until he got out of puppy phase, do you think he could be weaned off of it eventually?

Hambonez, I never looked at it that way. That's a great idea and I think the route I will end up taking. More than anything, I feel awful that he hates his crate so badly. If he is left alone in a room, he will destroy everything in it. Pull up any carpet, dig into the door, etc. My apartment laundry room is already destroyed because of the cat (when we first moved him indoors, he peed on everything so I had to confine him to the laundry room at night until he calmed down a bit) so I might as well use that. I've lost my deposit anyways 

MiniMaligator, thanks providing an alternative response. If I were to put a collar on him, it wouldn't be one of the automatic barker ones. I've heard that they can go off way too easily (such at something like an airplane passing) and he talks a lot to greet me, tell me he wants to go out, etc. I know that dogs bark and that it's not reasonable to expect him to never make a peep.

To those who suggested it, I will ask the breeder for help. I am thinking that the best route is probably medications and seeing about finding a good trainer who can help as well. The only problem is that money is very tight right now, what with it being after Christmas and the fact that I have to get him neutered. I am hoping in the meantime I can work on having him like his crate better until I can afford the more expensive route.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

coopaloop said:


> The only problem is that money is very tight right now, what with it being after Christmas and the fact that I have to get him neutered.


Why do you have to get him neutered, if you don't mind me asking? Is it in the breeder's contract?


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> Why do you have to get him neutered, if you don't mind me asking? Is it in the breeder's contract?


Yes. I also want to get him neutered at the place I work at before I go back to school because I know he will get quality care and I can watch after him.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Most AKK breeders have a spay/neuter clause in their contracts. This is a rare breed and people don't want to see them used in mixes or bred irresponsibly. AKK carry the gene for a bleeding disorder that must be tested for as well, and need to be carefully bred.

Also, anyone who would suggest a shock collar to treat true SA is just wrong. I could see how it would work with boredom/frustration barking, as it could suppress that behavior. Not a method I'd use, but I can see how it would work. A dog with true SA, though, is terrified of being left alone. Imagine that you had a child who was terrified of heights. If you took that kid up on a ferris wheel and the kid started to panic, breathing heavily and crying, would you zap the kid with a cattle prod to snap him out of it? Same idea here. If your dog is literally afraid of you leaving, then how is adding another scary thing -- a shock -- on to that supposed to solve anything?


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

Crantastic, that's a really good point, thank you. I think the hardest part is that I know how freaked out and scared he is while I am away. It just breaks my heart. Even things like me taking a shower seems to stress him out, he seems like he has such high anxiety about everything. I got him at seven weeks instead of eight, do you think this has something to do with it? He has been like this since day 1.

Also, does anyone have crate advice? I am worried his will be too small for him. He is about 9 1/2 lb right now, and the trainer at petco told me to buy the xtrasmall crate. While it says this crate goes up to 15 lb, I feel like AKKs are more 'lanky' than other dogs. I just want to make sure he is comfortable.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

That is a little young, but I wouldn't think that it would contribute to the SA. I know that quite a few AKK have issues with being crated and left alone. Mine has never loved his crate despite me doing my best to make it a good place (he tolerates it, but he doesn't love it). He also developed some mild SA after we moved into an apartment in a new city.

Do you have any pictures of your little guy? Is he a toy, mini or standard? We love puppy pics here.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

MiniMaligator said:


> The first month was rough. The dog continually tested the collar until we got to level 4 and it was heart wrenching to hear his yelps when he tried to bark with the collar on.


This, quite frankly, is right up on the list with people who beat their dogs. 
I in my opinion, it takes a pretty callous and/or ignorant person to sit and force their dog into pain because they want to take the easy way out of something.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Also, anyone who would suggest a shock collar to treat true SA is just wrong. I could see how it would work with boredom/frustration barking, as it could suppress that behavior. Not a method I'd use, but I can see how it would work. A dog with true SA, though, is terrified of being left alone. Imagine that you had a child who was terrified of heights. If you took that kid up on a ferris wheel and the kid started to panic, breathing heavily and crying, would you zap the kid with a cattle prod to snap him out of it? Same idea here. If your dog is literally afraid of you leaving, then how is adding another scary thing -- a shock -- on to that supposed to solve anything?


Having used an e-collar on different dogs/different problems I have to agree with the above. Is there a possibility that it would help SA, I suppose but you would have to go through/ruin quite a few dogs before finding that rare dog that would fall into place. 

If a dog owner is a gambler who does not mind bucking the odds, not a big deal after all they're only dogs.


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

[Edit] Posted pictures, but don't want facebook connected to this website.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Aww, he is adorable. I am fond of the black and whites.


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

Thank you  he's a very handsome guy. Intelligent too! Almost too much sometimes, haha. Is Casper shy with strangers at all? I heard that AKKs were, so from day one I brought him to campus every day to meet new people. Now, he warms up pretty quickly but the only person he's 100% completely unshy around is my boyfriend and myself. That's alright, though - I knew it was something that was likely to happen. I'm just not used to having dogs that aren't bounding up to other people wagging their tails!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yep, Cas is really not fond of strangers. I socialized him a lot as a pup -- we did puppy classes, visited friends and relatives, went to dog shows, I carried him through dog-friendly stores, he met tons of people... but he grew up just not trusting or liking strangers. He is fine walking through a crowd, but if someone approaches and tries to touch him, he's very wary. He has jumped and snapped at people -- not trying to make contact, just to scare them off. I now hold him if someone wants to meet him, and he's okay. He doesn't like other dogs getting in his face, either, although is excellent with my papillon and cats, and with the animals in the little zoo we often walk through. He's fine walking by other dogs as long as they don't try to touch him. And he's very quiet when I'm home... the biggest issue with him is some barking and howling when I leave, but we're working on it.

AKK are just weird, haha. I love them, but they are odd little dogs. I think they got a lot of the American Eskimo personality.

Also, just sent you a private message with some SA info and an email address for a breeder friend who may be able to help.


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## MiniMaligator (Jan 3, 2013)

Your little guy has to be about the cutest little thing I've ever seen. Ack, that picture in the batman shirt is cuteness overload!! 

So I do basically agree with most people that true SA shouldn't be treated with a bark collar. I do wonder if in this situation it might be more of a habit than true SA though, and that's why I mentioned that if the vet had actually seen the dog while he was at the clinic than that's why he might have suggested an bark collar. Because they thought that you could break the cycle of stress by stopping the barking. I also want to point out that what I posted did include that they used the bark collar on the suggestion of the vendor who is a very competent dog trainer with lots of experience. I wouldn't advocate a bark collar in most SA cases, but it might help this one. As long as it was paired with other activities that made going into the crate fun again and other positive SA treatment methods. 

One more thing - I wouldn't use a regular e collar for this if that is the route you end up taking. The timing on a bark collar is better and the consistency of a bark collar is more fair to the dog IMO. I also think that you won't have problems with a bark collar going off if you buy a good one (dogtra, tri-tronics, einstein) since the technology is vastly improved over bark collars of old. A lot of them have tones that give an auditory warning to the dogs when they begin to bark so that it isn't bark-zap-bark-zap but more like bark-warning-bark-zap or bark-warning-quiet, nothing. Much more fair. I probably sound like a bark collar salesmen or advocate and I'm most definitely not. I bought one once after doing a ton of research on brands/uses/everything you can think of, used it once and put it back in the box and just went back to absolute basics with training because I hated using it so much. It's unpleasant but if all else fails and it helps you keep a dog you love, then that's life.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

A vet wouldn't be able to see how the dog acts at home, though, so it seems very irresponsible of one to suggest a shock collar. It's also irresponsible of anyone on a forum to suggest one. We tend to suggest positive techniques here because even if the OP makes a mistake when using those techniques, they're not going to harm the dog. The same can't be said of a shock collar. You'll notice that wvasko posted at the top of this page -- he has trained many breeds of dog in the past 50 years, and has used electronic collars, but he never recommends them to people here just because of the potential for abuse or misuse.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well if the _vendor_ recommended it, it must be the right tool for the job. Aheheh.


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## MiniMaligator (Jan 3, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Well if the _vendor_ recommended it, it must be the right tool for the job. Aheheh.


Leerburg.com. They are devoted to dog training and also sell dog training products that they would personally use. I hear how it sounds when you say that, but I meant to say that they did so under guidance of someone who knows what they are talking about. Are their methods your methods? Probably not all of them. They aren't all mine either. I just wanted to post an example of a time where it did work. Because guess what, that means it might work again. 

Plus, all these people who talk about it being disgusting and pitiful and what not to hear a dog yelp when using a bark collar. What do you think is going to happen? You don't put a bark collar on a dog who doesn't want to bark so of course they're going to yelp. It's a training tool, get over it. Like I said, I've used them one time and never since, so it's not like I'm sitting here zapping my dogs left and right but other people buy and use them. Deal with it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Despite not being totally opposed to them, I don't think a bark collar is appropriate for a dog with SA. 

Deal with it.


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## MiniMaligator (Jan 3, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> A vet wouldn't be able to see how the dog acts at home, though, so it seems very irresponsible of one to suggest a shock collar. It's also irresponsible of anyone on a forum to suggest one. We tend to suggest positive techniques here because even if the OP makes a mistake when using those techniques, they're not going to harm the dog. The same can't be said of a shock collar. You'll notice that wvasko posted at the top of this page -- he has trained many breeds of dog in the past 50 years, and has used electronic collars, but he never recommends them to people here just because of the potential for abuse or misuse.


Yes, this makes perfect sense to me and I see that I'm probably very much in the wrong for saying that a bark collar might work in this case. I was under the impression that OP worked at an animal clinic and had brought the dog to work with her, therefore the vet had seen the dog doing his thing. I actually 100% agree with everything you said. Pinches, bark and e-collars are better left for people who know what they are doing and have put in the necessary ground work. The only thing i can think of is if the OP is determined to go get an e-collar for her dog, than she might as well be informed on how to use it. I 100% wouldn't use an e-collar on this dog if it were my dog and since I haven't seen the dog, I can't say that I would even use a bark collar. I'm just saying that if she thinks her vet is a good vet/dog person who she works for and who has seen her dog and knows her situation and says that it might work - well, it might actually work..


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## MiniMaligator (Jan 3, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Despite not being totally opposed to them, I don't think a bark collar is appropriate for a dog with SA.
> 
> Deal with it.


I'm actually quite fine with that since I earlier said that I don't think true SA should be treated with a bark collar in the majority of cases either. We haven't seen the dog. A vet who has seen the dog, knows her and knows her situation has. I think if she trusts who she works for (and maybe I got this all wrong, but it sounds like the dog went to the animal clinic where the OP works) and feels he is knowledgeable about dogs, well, that trumps random internet advice from people who can't see the dog.


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## lizziegirl (Jan 4, 2013)

I myself have AKK's and am very alarmed that you are considering using a shock collar. It sounds as though you and your dog are not a good match, and the best solution would be to contact the breeder and return the dog to them so they can find a home with someone who is able to handle/work with your dog's behavioral issues. AKK breeders care so much about the breed and their puppies and only want the best for them. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are in a situation that cannot be resolved and is bringing out unfortunate behavior in both your dog and yourself. Introducing pain into the situation will lead to nothing more that fear and more problems. One action in anger will last so much longer than several actions in love. You don't sound happy, and your dog doesn't sound happy. You both deserve to be. I wouldn't give up on the breed, I just think you may need to work closely with a breeder to find the personality of a dog that works best for you. Given how stressful college is, it might be better to wait until you are done to get another puppy. I implore you to PLEASE not use a shock collar on any animal for any reason. You may have a quiet dog, but only because of fear. PLEASE, PLEASE contact your breeder or others in the Klee Kai community. We all want to prevent any harm coming to you or your dog, emotional or physical.


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

MiniMaligator, thanks for providing another input. I did work at an animal clinic and I brought the dog in. I think there are some good points brought up here about the irreversible damage it could cause, and the fact that anxiety could be made worse. Overall, I think it has the potential to do more harm than good in my case and don't think I'd have the heart to use one even if it did turn out to be effective. 



lizziegirl said:


> I myself have AKK's and am very alarmed that you are considering using a shock collar. It sounds as though you and your dog are not a good match, and the best solution would be to contact the breeder and return the dog to them so they can find a home with someone who is able to handle/work with your dog's behavioral issues. AKK breeders care so much about the breed and their puppies and only want the best for them. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are in a situation that cannot be resolved and is bringing out unfortunate behavior in both your dog and yourself. Introducing pain into the situation will lead to nothing more that fear and more problems. One action in anger will last so much longer than several actions in love. You don't sound happy, and your dog doesn't sound happy. You both deserve to be. I wouldn't give up on the breed, I just think you may need to work closely with a breeder to find the personality of a dog that works best for you. Given how stressful college is, it might be better to wait until you are done to get another puppy. I implore you to PLEASE not use a shock collar on any animal for any reason. You may have a quiet dog, but only because of fear. PLEASE, PLEASE contact your breeder or others in the Klee Kai community. We all want to prevent any harm coming to you or your dog, emotional or physical.


Thanks for your response. I understand you are only posting this because you care about what is best for the dog, so please do not be offended when I say you do not know my dog and I's relationship, nor do you know myself! I have owned animals for many years and have never given up on one. I love this dog very much and I think that he has grown to like me a lot, too. Yes, after it was suggested to me by a trained professional I did consider the possibility of using a shock collar. But only because I was told that it would prevent future issues and make his life better in the long run. But as with all serious decisions I make, I do my research first. That is why I both posted on these forums and contacted the breeder. I do not believe that because I was mislead in considering this option, that I am not right for my dog or fit to own one. I am studying to become a veterinarian myself, and care very deeply about my animals. Again - please don't take what I said offensively, I know you are just looking out for what is best for the animal.

At this point, I'm not going to respond to any one else asking me to return him - that's not why I came here. I have messaged my breeder asking for advice, and Crantastic and a few others have given me some great resources.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Have you thought about trying a Thunder Shirt/Anxiety Wrap? Not a full solution but it may really, really help him. I've heard nothing but good things about them.

I have to agree that a shock collar is going to make it worse, as happens with most uses of a shock collar.

Here is a booklet you should look at, it's only 40 pages and is packed full of great advice for helping a dog with separation anxiety:
I'll be Home Soon: How to Prevent and Treat Separation Anxiety

I'm not a fan of medication but the right medication can really help calm your dog. Unlike medications of the past that simply made your dog too loopy and tired to react, new medications work on brain chemistry, similar in idea to antidepressants for people. Training and behavior modification is that major part, but medication is worth considering. Do your research about anti-anxiety meds (some are listed in that booklet) to make sure it's not something that just makes him loopy or tired. You're trying to change his emotions and attitude, not simply surpress the behavior.


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## coopaloop (Jan 3, 2013)

Sibe said:


> Have you thought about trying a Thunder Shirt/Anxiety Wrap? Not a full solution but it may really, really help him. I've heard nothing but good things about them.
> 
> I have to agree that a shock collar is going to make it worse, as happens with most uses of a shock collar.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I bought him a pheromone collar today called NurtureCalm, it says I should see results in about 48 hrs. I also bought him some herbal medicine ([edit] they're called "Composure") to be given to him about 30-45 minutes before I leave. I'm really hoping they will both help, but at $40 every 3 weeks I can't afford to use it his entire life so hopefully it's not a more permanent solution. I'll check out a thundershirt. When he is super anxious I will put him on his side and hold him firmly and he immediately calms down, so I think that will help a lot.

I talked to my vet, and she told me that there is research done that says that 7 weeks old (how old I got my pup) is way too young to be away from the mother and causes separation anxiety. That, along with the tendency for the breed to have it anyways, is what she thinks made his case so bad. This is not the same vet that suggested a shock collar.


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## Calmingapple (Jan 8, 2013)

Hi coopaloop (and everyone else),

I am new to this forum but just wanted to say thanks for sharing your story.
I learned a lot from reading this thread.
I almost got an Alaskan Klee Kai (amazing breed) but we ended up getting an American Eskimo and I already see similarities!

best regards!


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## Calmingapple (Jan 8, 2013)

One last thought: We brought our puppy home at eight weeks and I now feel that nine, maybe even ten weeks would have been a bit better.

I have a little nipper on my hands. I trust more time with her litter mates would have helped.


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## simon69 (Jan 14, 2013)

hi coopaloop

firstly well done for having the bravery to come forward and ask for help. most dog owners are proud people as are most parents, and it is a difficult admission to make that things arent working out as best they should, and taking on the responsibility and guilt that comes from that. You have done the best thing you could possibly do by owning up and ask the opinions of others, which will be wide ranging and different, sometimes opposing. now you have to try and make as best a judgement as you can based on your own personal circumstances, domestic situation, timetable, and budget requirements etc. 

there are loads of things to try before you reach what I'd call desperate measures ie giving him up, psychotropic drugs or a shock collar. 

The first thing is do you have anyone who can act as dog sitter or dog buddy? Someone to take the strain off you for one or two nights a week, or someone else who has a dog that can have him over to stay, or you can have his/her dog over for the evening? You may notice a great deal of difference once the dogs get to know each other. the problem could be solved forever just by getting him a playmate, either on occasion or perhaps in the longer run permanently.

I would never let a puppy go at seven weeks, i think 10 is probably the earliest I have ever released one. There's still so much mental development still to do at that age. My own first dog was received at 8 and he cried constantly when I got him. I used to leash him to my bed so he couldn't jump up but could rest in his own bed comfortably. He'd wake up during the night crying and I'd simply reach my hand down and comfort him and he'd go back to sleep (assuming he didn't need to go out for a wee). This made a big difference and we then worked on putting him in his crate - in our room - for a few hours at a time. eventually we moved the crate out of the room.

A word on crates - making them as comfortable as possible inside doesn't make much difference if the dog perceives he is vulnerable when in it. Have you tried covering it with a warm blanket or towel? This will help deaden the sound of him barking but it will also make him feel more concealed and protected - and warm and secure. If the idea of the crate is to mimic a den in the wild, then no den would have bars and the contents be visible to all potential predators. Mine love to choose the crate that is covered - we have several and the covered one gets the vote every time. Something to try.

perhaps if the crate is spooking him i would try just leashing first. as long as the leash isnt chicken wire i dont think its a dangerous tactic. so long as there's lots of slack nothing bad can happen. pick one that's tough and unchewable otherwise the dog will simply chew out of it.

however i would warn against leaving the little mutt alone for a full working day, at this stage. being separated for 7 hours plus is a lot to take for a little guy, so you have to try and find a way to get him social during the day. if you can't get someone to go round and visit, there are other ways too.

on ebay you can buy simple webcams and a lot of them have audio built in. connect one of these via wifi to your modem and you can then check up on your dog while youre out, and even speak back to him. just hearing your voice occasionally will be a great source of comfort. it is no substitute for real human or canine contact though, so i would really try and find a buddy in the area as i think that will make the world of difference. having the camera there is a good backup option though and will make you feel happier about leaving him.

soundproofing is also something you should consider if you are at risk of upsetting neighbours and relatives. you can build a soundproofing box using basic materials such as gypsum rockwool and underlay. This may not be benefitting the dog but you also need to give consideration your surroundings. it also doesn't mean you should just ignore the barking from then on either!

you could also send him away to a behaviouralist for a few days or weeks to see how they get on. they may discover a way to elicit great behaviour every time which could be quite easy to replicate. a bit of training with a pack may help the pup modify his actions. maybe the trainer can do some work with crating. for example with my newborn pups, i let them play together and then i crate them individually afterwards for an hour each day alone in a separate area so they get used to their own time as well as pack time, because ultimately most will end up being on their own without littermates or playmates. then they get a reward and more playtime when they come out as a treat. simple things like this help reinforce good behaviour and good reactions.

if there really is nowhere else to go except medication and shock collar treatment then i would be very cautious with both, as both are quite severe and dangerous forms of treatment in their own way. the good news is neither are inhumane in the sense that both of them are used widely on humans. electroconvulsive therapy is actually still in use today on severely mentally impaired people and is far more painful than shock collars. on the other hand, i have felt the force of a shock collar on my own skin (NB however I have NEVER used them on a dog or even witnessed them being used on a dog) and i know that even on the minimum setting they are quite painful, to me a decent sized male human. perhaps on larger dogs such as a weimarer (above) they can produce results however i would be VERY adverse to using them on a Klee Kai where the body weight and body fat is so low. There are other types of collars out there that don't use electricity to consider before you get anywhere near electricity, there are vibrate collars that produce are harmless vibration akin to a mobile phone ringing or the water ones or bark ones that don't have to fire into the eyes and produce more of a distraction than a painful event. a lot of the time you are trying the distract the dog out of his current situation and there are many ways to do that other than via pain.

some people consider neutering to be overly cruel and in many countries outside the UK/US it is hardly done, eg in France where the number of dogs neutered is equivalent to the number of dogs intact in the UK/US. However neutering may in fact help appease the dog and time will tell if that can help him feel secure in his crate.

chemical treatment i have really no idea about except that i do know from personal experience that in certain situations it can make a mentally ill human even worse so i'd be very cautious too about going down this road until i was absolutely sure i'd tried everything else. the last thing you want to do is to be the small statistic of people who tried either of these methods and ended up increasing your dog's suffering.

good luck though and keep in touch about your progress.

simon


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## spikey44 (Jan 14, 2013)

This is a suggestion for the future... when picking out a puppy, do sum quik test before you buy.
first when holding the puppy, flip him over on his back, if he doesnt struggle tht is a good sign.
second, remove litter mates from the pen, and watch how he reacts, the calmer he is, the better. Now this will not garauntee a seperation anxiety free puppy, but its a good start.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

Please be careful of shock collars.

A client of mine used one on her Boxer who would not stop barking at "random things" as she put it. The doorbell, the kitchen timer, someone coming down the stairs, etc. She put a no-bark collar on him, and in less than six months that dog went from just barking at "random things" to full-out aggression towards other dogs, strangers on the street, and even the other dog that's been in the home longer than himself! That dog now has to spend almost two months away at doggy-bootcamp. 

I believe 100% that because they used a tool they did no research on, and used it as the only sole function to shut the dog up, the dog instead became so agitated because it's natural instinct to bark was taken away. (The customer even admitted that to me, and believe now that she "broke her dog" and now has to pay thousands to fix him...)

I am completely torn on the idea of shock-collars, would I love for my neighbors to use it on their dogs- yes! 40 minutes of straight barking, no pauses is enough to make me want to blow my brains out, but do I believe if they took the dog's inhibition to bark completely away that it could cause aggression issues- yes!


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

So what's the update on this dog?


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

OP, I completely understand how incredibly frustrating it is to have a dog like this. I think people on this thread have underestimated the patience required in handling a dog like this and I understand the need to vent a little. My rescue dog Pete came to me the same way. He _screamed_ when I left the room, would bark for hours in his crate, drooling and trying so frantically to get out he injured himself a couple times. The lowest point was about 2.5 months ago when I left him in 'his room' (dog safe) for 8 hours and came home to what looked like a murder scene. The musk from his sweat and drool and pee was overpowering and there was blood _everywhere _from frantic escape attempts that broke a few of his nails and cut his paw. So, I get it. I'm happy to report though that Pete can now be left with free range of the house alone for hours with relatively little stress (all he does is wait by the door and run around the house looking for food)

That said. DO NOT use a shock collar on him. He is afraid and panicking, pain will just make matters so much worse. Medication was a lifesaver for us and I don't even plan on refilling the prescription, the training we combined it with has really worked. For Pete confinement multiplied his anxiety (despite using every crate training method in the book) so as soon as he was reliably housetrained we gave him free run. Luckily he doesn't destroy anything. I don't know if this would be an option for your dog, is he housetrained and non-destructive? We also really ramped down the affection he was getting and the level of dependency he was allowed. He got cuddles in the morning and pets for training but thats it, no sitting on my lap or bed and whining got no response. I also would close him out of the bathroom or my room for a few minutes (and now hours) at a time. 

As for the crate at night, can you move the crate to your room? It might be enough if he can hear you and smell you instead of actually being on your bed, plus everything else will seem better with a full night sleep.

I'll leave it at that for now but we used a lot of other techniques so feel free to message me if you want me to describe them. Good luck!


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

Try this one out.

Throw a blanket over the crate to make it dark inside the crate and it can't see the outside.
Sit there with your dog near the crate, with it covered.
Wait out the cries for a little while.
Evaluate the situation.

Its worked for me a couple times in the past. Eventually you're able to walk out of the room.
I sometimes even fell asleep right there with the dog because it just made sense. If you want the dog to sleep, why not take a nap yourself too? Bound to make the dog feel more comfortable.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

MiniMaligator said:


> Yes, this makes perfect sense to me and I see that I'm probably very much in the wrong for saying that a bark collar might work in this case. I was under the impression that OP worked at an animal clinic and had brought the dog to work with her, therefore the vet had seen the dog doing his thing. I actually 100% agree with everything you said. Pinches, bark and e-collars are better left for people who know what they are doing and have put in the necessary ground work. The only thing i can think of is if the OP is determined to go get an e-collar for her dog, than she might as well be informed on how to use it. I 100% wouldn't use an e-collar on this dog if it were my dog and since I haven't seen the dog, I can't say that I would even use a bark collar. I'm just saying that if she thinks her vet is a good vet/dog person who she works for and who has seen her dog and knows her situation and says that it might work - well, it might actually work..


Im a E-collar guy. my experience w bark collars is limited. However I know a good bark collar is variable stim and should not be set to a level that makes the dog yelp every time it barks. Ideally it would be mild enough to suppress unwanted barking while ignored if the dog is hyped up. I also do not think a shock collar should be used to directly punish a dog for SA.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

I realize the thread is over a month old/dead now, but I was hoping the OP would come back and give an update.

I'm also a college student at the moment, I make a pretty good amount of money from my job so I can support an AKK puppy (especially since I won't have the time to go to bars/movies/etc as much haha.)

I've been searching all over the internet and talking to breeders in order to get more information. So this thread has been quite valuable for me.
Although I hope I dont end up with similar issues, as I'm not sure how happy my family would be if they cant sleep.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I spoke to the OP elsewhere at the end of January -- there was some progress (the dog could stay in his crate at night; he'd whine for a half hour or so and then be quiet until morning). I haven't heard from the OP since then, though. I hope things are improving.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

I hope so too.. :\

I actually did not find much info about this problem until I found these forums and did a search for "klee kai" topics.
The breeder I've been talking to (legit breeder, listed on the AKKAOA site) even told me AKKs are normally quiet and would do fine in my apartment.

I thought maybe OP was having a rare case...
But now I notice your thread about Casper having SA too ):

I dont plan on getting a puppy until the summer, if my position on the waiting list will even give me the chance to have a puppy by then lol.
So I have some time to do more research. Will probably make another thread with questions later, I hope you can drop by and give me some insight when I do.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Which breeder did you talk to? Send me a private message and we can talk a bit, if you want -- I know a few breeders and can let you know who's considered the best and who to avoid. I will tell you that AKK aren't really a quiet breed. Casper doesn't bark as much as my papillon (he's a quiet player, and very quiet while we're just hanging out here in the apartment), but he does like to "talk" to me, and he definitely howls if I leave him home alone for too long. He'll sometimes yip at other dogs out of frustration while we're walking, too (usually if they're running loose and he's leashed). SA is a common issue in the breed, but there are things you can do to reduce the risk of it. 

I find that this PDF is very accurate when it comes to describing the breed. Some excerpts:



> Alaskan Klee Kai are truly companion huskies. They are devoted to their family and friends
> with their favorite spot being anywhere their owners are. That said, they are NOT a breed for
> everyone.
> 
> ...





> Like other huskies, Alaskan Klee Kai are a very vocal with an enormous range of vocalizations.
> Less prone then their Siberian cousins to morning and evening song, the AKK will enjoy
> spending a lot of time literally chatting with you. This is one of their finest, in my opinion,
> qualities, and those quiet conversations provide some positively wonderful opportunities for
> ...


That said, there are some breeders now who are working to lessen the shyness, and I've met some AKK now who weren't bad -- they had no interest in letting me pat them, but they weren't nervous of me.

I'm off for a walk now, but if you write to me, I'll write back later.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Yea I came across that PDF as well and gave it a thorough read.
I've known about the talking or "yapping" as well as the need for a "thorough greeting" when I get home. I find that all to be cute and endearing, it really makes me smile just to think about it.

but its the howling that worries me ):
Being in a not so great neighborhood (for humans anyway... theres a park with a dog run across the street though) I dont think howling during the day will a major problem.
But I dont want the puppy to keep my entire family up at night since we do all wake up early to go to work.
The plan is to have the puppy living in my bedroom though, and I have been thinking of ways to construct a safe "play area" for him.

I'll shoot you a PM, enjoy your walk


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