# dominate puppy - advice needed



## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

Ok firstly, so sorry for my spelling mistakes, i feel like each one is disrespectful for all the people here who give such good advice, but i am stressed and dont have time to dictionary ever word.

*Ok the story*

I have a 9 week old Leoberger puppy, he was selected for me by the breeder as a perfect match for our busy and loud family. She is a fantastic breeder and knows each puppy she breeds perfectly and matches them to the right families.

Ok so i was expecting to get a female because i was told they were better with young children, but secretly i wanted a male for the look and the size. so when my breeder said she thought the perfect pup for me was a male, the most laid back lad in the world i agreed wholeheartedly to follow her advice.

now Rox (Leo puppy) was amazing (still is) when we met him, licking fingers not biting, wanted to be with us not his brothers and sisters ect.

8 weeks and always the same, the most placid in the pack.

until today.

Today i have had him home for 3 full days, he is settle well, now let me discribe his personailty:

He loves his den
he doesnt like to play, he likes to lounge (perfect)
he doesnt nip or jump
he doesnt get phased by anything, new, noisey, big , fast, couldnt care less
i have 2 year old twins, they run around and arond, he barely lifts a eyelid.

this is great this is what i want, a good ole boy....but is it something more sinister.

he always lays away from us,
he never asks for hugs or rubs, he just chills.

i wouldnt have thought anything of this, let alone the thought of dominace, until today, when he was outside laying on the cool stone and i needed to put him in side and he went crazy, snapping, growling, raging with his eyes.

I was shocked, i jumped back, he won that round. I rang the breeder, she is shocked and worried, i can take the pup back full refund, swap him for another choice, whatever i want, if i cant handle him.

She tells me next time he tries to bite and snarl, grab his scruff, shake and growl like his mum would, make him yelp.

Ok so he does it again and i am ready and he yelps and then is placid, i move him indoors.

he sulks.

he never likes my hand to ask forgiveness nothing.

he sulks.


ok so please help me, should i keep him?
do you think he sounds dominate?

why does he always lie away from us or in his den?

i have heaps of info if you need, just can we get some dialoge going here.

It would be best for me to decide really quick if he has to have a new family.

i love him
my kids love him

many thanks
jaymee


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Billycourty said:


> he always lays away from us,
> he never asks for hugs or rubs, he just chills.


Not all dogs are lapdogs, not all dogs love cuddles. My older Beagle can be the same way sometimes. She will come over for a pet, but once she's had enough, she'll just go chill on the other side of the room. It's also got a lot to do with the fact that he's just joined your family. The world as he knows it has just been upturned; there are new rules, a new setting, a new family. It's all very overwhelming for him right now, so you need to give him time to become accustomed to his new home.



> i wouldnt have thought anything of this, let alone the thought of dominace, until today, when he was outside laying on the cool stone and i needed to put him in side and he went crazy, snapping, growling, raging with his eyes.


Can you describe exactly what you did to move him aside? 



> She tells me next time he tries to bite and snarl, grab his scruff, shake and growl like his mum would, make him yelp.


I really would NOT do this and I don't know why your breeder would recommend it. It can be very traumatising for any dog, let alone a puppy.



> he never likes my hand to ask forgiveness nothing.


Dogs generally don't really do this.

Honestly, if I were you, I wouldn't be so quick to rehome him. It sounds like you have a great puppy. You need to give him some time to readjust. 

It would help to get somemore information about the incident you mentioned. What was he doing when you approached him? How did you move him? Did you say anything? Did he see you coming?


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

Thankyou Rosemaryninja for your reply.

So we live in a big apartment on the ground floor, we have direct garden access, but i have to lift the puppy over the 1 foot door jam to take him potty.

We will be building a ramp so he can safely climb over and down, but that is for the weekend.

So i have to scoop him up, i pay close attention to not harm him and to support him well and just place him down gently on the other side, the indidence has accord while taking him potty and me scooping him up to carry him back inside because he refused to walk, and he has growled and snapped at my face.

I put him down and then remember that you should always hold a struggling puppy until its still and then put it down, so already i had failed to show leadership.

the bad accident happened when he was sitting to go inside and decided he would perfer to sleep on the sweeet cooool stone slab in front of the sliding doors and not go inside, he remained lying and ferciously snapped and growled and barred his teeth, i grabbed his ruff and growled back the first time, and then he did it again on the next potty excursion, thats when i shock his scruff and growled and he yelped, and then allowed me to pick him up without a fuss.

I didnt hurt him, because i take great care, he just really loves the outside.

i follow as many nilif rules and alpha rules as i can, 

i.e
we dont go to him for pats.
(so because he doesnt come to us for pats no one gets pats)

we dont treat him like a child and make him sit before meals and place our hands in the bowl at feed time.

he loves to play tug games, but i havent been playing because i have hear its not a good idea, 
but today i did play and made sure i won, not hard because he is willing to give up toys,

i felt he bonded more during that game.

any and all advice and insites are welcome.

the main things is i dont know if i can handle a dominate dog that tests my leadership at every turn, this is my first dog and i will make pently of mistakes.

Jaymee

jaymee


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Forget the alpha rules like going through doors first, eating first, physically restraining him till he's calm. Very few of those actually make sense, and the few that do require utmost perfection in terms of timing and reading the subtleties of a dog's body language. 

A 9 week-old puppy has no concept of aggression or dominance yet. Don't worry about these things for now. Accusing a 9 week-old puppy of being aggressive is like accusing a human baby of malicious intent. There's a very inaccurate picture being painted of dogs lately as creatures who are constantly testing you, trying to get the upper hand. The truth is that dogs are much less like that than you think. 

Most of the "alpha rules" are difficult to enforce and end up scaring a puppy more than teaching it. NILIF is much less confrontational and is much easier to put into practice. I would stick to NILIF, but throw the rest of the "leadership rules" out the window.

Now, regarding the snarling incident. In the future, I would probably try something a bit more positive, like luring him inside with a treat or a toy. Forcing him to go in by carrying him might solve the problem right there and then, but once this guy hits a year or so of age, physical force is not going to keep him from doing what he wants. He should WANT to go inside, of his own accord. That's why you use the food and toy as a reward for coming inside.


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks Rose,

I did have a revelation today that i wasn't looking at 0r enjoying my puppy as much as i was trying to STOP bad habits from appearing.

i suppose that is the danger of NILIF and the others is that you start to see the problem when there isnt one.

But i know that agression and dominance are not the same however i doubt my ability in regards to a strong dominate male.

So reason i think my dog is dominate: Please debunk

he is aloof and self contained
he is never afraid of new situations
he was aggressive to me when i tried to make him do something he didnt want
he has tried to place his body over mine and hmp my leg.

This happened when we were playing tug, i finished the game, he didnt beg to recommence or anything, 
he just moved to the other side of the room and snoozed, so i just played with his toys, and he came back over when i did this,
i made him sit and started a tug game, he laid across my lap and then started humping while tugging....

Jaymee


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

The behavior you are describing does not surprise me, nor indicate to me that this is a dog who is going to be a problem. He is in a new environment and is handling it his own way. He didn't want to be picked up and couldn't get away, so he instinctively fought. Perhaps he's not used to being picked up, you picked him up and it didn't feel good, or he's been hurt getting picked up before, etc. Humping can mean a dog is excited, playful, anxious, over-stimulated, etc.

Instead of focusing on what you DON'T want your puppy to do, focus on what you want your puppy TO DO and find positive ways to train for that behavior. That means no alpha rolls, no scruffing, no collar "pops," no yelling, no hitting, etc. If you want your puppy to accept being picked up, break it down into small steps of the puppy accepting people in his space, touching him all over, lifting paws, examining his mouth and under his tail, etc. Make every step enjoyable for the puppy. If this were my dog, I would incorporate a clicker so I clearly mark exactly what he was doing right as he did it. Find out what his favorite treat is and use tiny bits of it during training only. If he enjoys a certain game you can incorporate this, as well, to take breaks away from training. Dogs do what works, so remember that when you are rewarding behavior. Train your puppy to walk next to you with attention by first rewarding him for giving you attention. The more rewarding you make it to be around you, the more he'll seek you out and want to be around you.


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

thanks pamperedpups, what you said makes a lot of sense to me, about rewarding your dog for paying attention to you so he wants to be around you.

About the picking up, this dog has been handled from the day it was born and its not a problem with that.

he is not timid or shy in any way.


jaymee


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## AkiraleShiba (Dec 9, 2007)

Billycourty said:


> he is aloof and self contained


You cannot ask all dogs to be like lapdogs, some are more independent but they warm up after they get adjusted



> he is never afraid of new situations


Great!! A fearful dog demands lots of work, it seems as if he was well socialised !



> he was aggressive to me when i tried to make him do something he didnt want


You have to work on this, pamperedpups and rosemaryninja gave you great suggestions



> he has tried to place his body over mine and hmp my leg.


NILF will help, all puppies go through this phase either ignore the behaviour or re-direct it.

Don't forget that your puppy is trying to get adjusted to humans rules and your household and of course it's going to need work but I would not start worrying now.


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

thanks Akirale,

how would you guys deal with this situation?

if its wrong to shake the scruff and growl, what do i do at the instance of the growl, snap?

thanks
Jay


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

First of all, drop the word "Dominance" from your thinking and handling of this puppy. He is a puppy. A BABY. He is not dominating anyone. If your Baby twin did something wrong, would you think he was dominating you or just doing something you need to teach him not to do? 

Also, drop the idea that playing tug and always winning is necessary. It is not. Let the dog win once in awhile. Can you imagine playing and always losing? THINK how frustrating that would be. Dogs play and one doesn't always win. 

Can you get hold of a book "the Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell and read it? You will learn a LOT. I would also recommend "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. beyond that, check out this site www.clickertraining.com as your puppy is the perfect age to learn this and start this. It takes timing and concentration on your part, but it is fun and makes training fun. 

With petting, while your dog may not come to you for petting, you can ask your dog to come to you and then pet him. IOW's YOU initiate this. And don't PAT the dog.. stroke him... nice, calm, long strokes. Give him a small treat (I use hot dogs.. cut 'em in quarters lengthwise then cross cuts will get you 50 cheap treats). Speak calmly. Make petting and time with you pleasant and fun. 

And, please, don't grab the poor little thing by the scruff and growl at him. Use a toy to divert his interest. I like one of those Rope bones on a 6 foot piece of clothes line to get things moving. Get the dog to chase it and tug on it and then ask him to "give it" and offer a piece of food. 

You have had this dog three days. It is a very confusing time for this baby dog, and remember, he is a BABY..


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Jaymee -

Here's an article on getting your puppy to accept you and others picking him up, holding or examining him: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/handling-and-gentling

Even though he was handled from birth at the breeder's he is in a new situation now with new people. Also keep in mind that he is growing and changing constantly.

Check out the Training Textbook. You can also do a search on that site for more information on socialization, what to do about a growling puppy, etc. You can also purchase Dr. Ian Dunbar's book "After You Get Your Puppy" here: http://dogstardaily.com/after-you-get-your-puppy


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Billycourty said:


> Thanks Rose,
> 
> I did have a revelation today that i wasn't looking at 0r enjoying my puppy as much as i was trying to STOP bad habits from appearing.
> 
> ...



Jaymee, forget everything about dominance. Forget about testing and securing leadership. You don't need to worry about this right now. Your dog is a baby and has no idea what "testing leadership" even is right now. Right now it's like you are raising a baby like a teenager. It doesn't work that way. You can't treat a baby the way you would treat a teenager; it just ends up in you being frustrated and the dog becoming confused and fearful.

I'm going to propose a change of perspective. Instead of looking at it in terms of dominance, just memorise this:

*If a dog finds a behaviour rewarding, he will perform it more often. If he finds a behaviour punishing, he will perform it less often.*

That's all there is to it. Dominance is not a factor at all. If your dog does something, it's not because he's trying to get the best of you; it's because he thinks he might get rewarded for it with a treat, or a toy.

The answer to this is simple. Reward your puppy for doing things you want him to do. This doesn't always have to be performing a command. Reward him for being calm and collected in a new situation. Reward him for coming over for cuddles if you want him to be more affectionate. Every single time your dog is doing something you want him to do -- be it using the toilet outside, sitting calmly in his bed while you eat instead of begging at the table, meeting new dogs politely, allowing himself to be picked up. Start doing this and I guarantee you will start seeing more behaviours that you want and less that you don't want.



> So reason i think my dog is dominate: Please debunk
> 
> he is aloof and self contained
> he is never afraid of new situations
> ...


Aloofness has absolutely nothing to do with dominance, just like affection has nothing to do with submission. I see dogs all the time that are always dying for cuddles and hugs, but their owners have zero control over them. Likewise, I've seen plenty of dogs who are more aloof and reserved, but obey their owners' every command. It's got nothing to do with "dominance" and everything to do with personality. 

Remember what I said before: dogs will perform the behaviours they find rewarding. This applies to every dog, every breed, every personality type. It's up to you to figure out what your dog considers rewarding (food? toys? attention? walks?) and use that to your advantage. If you think he's motivated most by food, use that to reward him for doing what you want. So, instead of forcing him through the door, lure him through with a treat and then give it to him. If you give him a treat for every time he walks in nicely without protesting or lying down, I'm certain that after a week he will be rushing back inside.

It is WONDERFUL that your dog isn't afraid of new situations. This is a crucial age for your pup -- you should be exposing him to as much novelty as possible so he grows up to be reliable in different settings. You have no idea how much training people put into their dogs so that they aren't fazed by new things. Honestly, instead of worrying about dominance because your dog isn't fearful of novelty, I would be thanking my lucky stars that I got a stable, even-tempered dog.

Do not confuse fearfulness with "submission." A dog that rolls on its back every time its owner approaches isn't submissive. It's fearful. A dog that balks in new situations isn't submissive, it's fearful. And fearfulness is one of the LAST things you want to see in a dog.

The aggression incident: like I said, nothing to do with dominance.

Neither would I consider the humping to be an attempt at dominance. Tug games are fine, and it's okay to let the dog win once in awhile.


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

​Thanks everyone you have given me heaps of good advice.

a special thanks to you Rosemary, everything you say makes perfect sense.

And things are going a lot better already.

I will post some pictures of Rox when i work out how.

Jaymee


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

You're very welcome, Jaymee  Keep us all posted on his progress.

Here's a link that might help you get those pictures up:
http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/13113-having-trouble-posting-photos.html


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> Jaymee -
> 
> Here's an article on getting your puppy to accept you and others picking him up, holding or examining him: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/handling-and-gentling
> 
> ...


You can also download for free 'Before You Get Your Puppy' which takes you through the 1st couple of weeks at home. There's also a chapter/s on your puppy education.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/files/BEFORE You Get Your Puppy.pdf
I also gave you a few links to this site on your other thread. You'll find the whole site useful with videos, radio programms, blogs etc.
He's just a baby who needs time alone to sleep & get used to his new home. He has left his mum & siblings & doesn't know what is happening to him.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

you may want to choose to totally ignore me on this one.... but im just thinking here from experience....

if the only time hes growling, snapping, and whatnot at you is when youre trying to pick him up, or you do. (atleast thats what im getting from your post) and he lays down a lot then maybe there may be something bugging him health wise. i mean, it could be something as simple as gas (you pick him up it puts pressure on the belly and hurts) or as in the case with my dog, it was a growth disease beginning.

im not saying THIS IS what is going on.... but i just wanted to put it out there as maybe something to stay in the back of your head incase anything else funny starts to happen. (ie, wont eat, very tired, sore)


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Excellent advice from everyone. Dog Forum people ROCK! DF should publish a "best of" book of these posts, starting with this thread.


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

Thanks for the growth disease thought Greatdanemom.

I think he growls when i pick him up because he is in a half "alpha roll| position.

I had a professional behavourist come and look at him and he says Rox has "above average charecter", but he feels we can keep him in hand and he will be ok with the kids he told us "its not how he is with your kids, but how they are with him" make sure they give him treats and really pay attention they only give me nice experiences on children.

This isnt hard with my 2 girls, 9 and 2 1/2. But boy trying to convince my son 2 1/2 that the dog isnt "naughty" and stop trying to protect everyone from it is tough.

Rox is a tough puppy, he is smart and quick to learn but sometimes i just have to put him in his crate and have a time out, after he has bitten bitten me, growled at me and refused to stop playing tug with my arm.

This all from a dog that lives by NILIF from the day it entred my house.

I think maybe why things have been tough, becuase he's never had such leadership inposed on him before and hes acting out.

QUESTION:

Today i came into the room, and totally ignored him, he started yapping and barking right at my face (i was standing) but i just kept on ignoring him, until he started to bite my legs.

then i growled at him and shouted no and he stopped and went into his submissive lie down.

but did he lie down submissively because of my telling him off, or because he had got what he wanted, my attention and then was happy once he won it?

thoughts?

Jaymee


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

You gotta let go of the submissive/dominant thing. It just doesn't matter as much as you seem to want it to! I'm going to guess that the dog stopped what it was doing because you scared it by growling and shouting. I would be frightened by you, as well.

Puppies are obnoxious. It doesn't matter if you are practicing NILIF or not. Puppies are going to chew household items, bite your fingers and your pant legs, jump around like maniacs, and make a noisy fuss when they want something. This does not make them bad, nor does it make them dominant.

If you don't want your dog to yap and bark when you walk in, then take some precautionary measures. Make sure the dog is getting enough physical and mental exercise so that it doesn't have the energy to yap every time you walk into a room. Teach it to sit and lie down so that you can ask for those behaviors as replacements for the barking. Stick the pup in his crate when you are not there to supervise him. When you walk in the room and he starts to bark, ignore him. He can't bite your leg from inside the crate, right? When he's quiet, let him out and have a celebration!

Have you taken the pup to the vet, yet? It wouldn't be a bad idea to make sure there's nothing physically wrong with your dog that causes him discomfort when he's picked up.


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

Yes he is crated
yes he has been to the vet

he is well execised in the way that a giant breed should be at his age.

I do believe you can have submissive and dominate dogs.

I think if i ignored his penchant to rule the roost that he would become intolerble to live with.

please dont think i shouted at him or growled viciously, i just sternly growled and added no.

I didnt want to say i softly said no, but i firmly and loudly said no.

He wasnt scared, but he did know to go play with his toys quietly.

but it everyone thinks i am abusive or crazy because i believe my dog has a dominate attitude then just let this post faded into the archives.

Jaymee


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I don't see where anyone has called you abusive or crazy. You came looking for suggestions on dealing with your puppy, and that is what you've been given. Just because no one has recommended that you growl, alpha roll, or speak sternly to your puppy (dominant or otherwise) and instead offered alternative positive solutions and viewpoints does not mean they think you should just let him "rule the roost."

Think about it this way: Growling, saying NO, etc. doesn't tell a puppy what to do. If you are using sounds like those as a means to end an undesirable behavior it has to be aversive or startling enough to the dog to distract him, then your dog is stuck having to choose something else to do that may or may not be appropriate. Why not focus your energy positively on teaching your dog what you want him to do from the start instead?


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

I have been teaching my dog positivly fromt he begining.

I dont want to alpha roll my dog and i never have.

i growl at my dog and he understand that i am displeased, i growl at my kids too.

After i growl at him i always give me a happy option to go to and instantly praise him when he stops whatever he was doing.

i really just wanted to know what you would do in a situation where you ignore your dog and he does something you cant ignore, do you keep ignoring him until he stops or do you have to distract him from doing the bad thing, i.e paying attention to him?

I know this forum doesnt practice Alpha or even recognise it as relevant.

p.s i know no one called me abusive or crazy, i said think i am abusive or crazy

so please change my word "Alpha" to something that doesnt get knee jerk reactions.

I have a pup that has shown me he as a very strong will and i need to gentley but firmly set the ground rules for him from day one.

Jaymee


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Whether I would ignore my puppy or redirect would really depend upon the situation. I obviously wouldn't wait it out if the puppy was chewing say, a table leg. Instead I would redirect with something even better, then manage the puppy to prevent further chewing on the table. If the puppy was barking at me for attention, I would likely turn and walk away, removing myself and therefore any reinforcement (negative or positive attention). I would even work on putting the barking on cue so I could reinforce quiet or barking as needed. Notice that dominance doesn't really matter with solutions like these, and I am working towards changing my dog's behavior to something I want my dog to do versus simply stopping the behavior I don't want and leaving the dog to choose another behavior that may or may not be desirable.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

There's nothing really wrong with conveying your displeasure through a firm "No." What you do want to avoid is scaring your pup, which it sounds like you are doing with the growling and shouting. When your puppy is behaving in a way that you dislike, you want to give him a quiet but firm "no", redirect his behaviour to something you _do_ want him to do, then reward him for doing that instead.

Exercising leadership over your puppy is fine, but it should be done in a way that is not intimidating or confrontational to the dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jaymee
I read your background and I don't believe you would want a 7 yr old child out digging ditches all day. This is a puppy, no more, no less.
*
but it everyone thinks i am abusive or crazy because i believe my dog has a dominate attitude then just let this post faded into the archives.*

I also did not see any abuse remarks towards you and did see posts from you thanking people for advice. So I'm assuming that advice made sense to you. It sounds like a good program so far. Is it possible that you are worried for future dominance and it is upsetting your decisions now with puppy. I'm old school and tough on dogs but never on pups. I did not really see anything wrong with,

*please dont think i shouted at him or growled viciously, i just sternly growled and added no. I didnt want to say i softly said no, but i firmly and loudly said no.
*

Your pup will survive the loud no, I myself think a *no* does not need to be loud (unless dog is hard of hearing) just firm. I have no idea what the growling does but if it makes you feel good use it.


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## Billycourty (Sep 16, 2008)

Thankyou rosemary, vasko and pampered.

Just to explain a little deeper, Rox wasnt scared when i growled at him he just calmly went and played with his toy and stoped biting and barking at me.

thats why i asked myself "hang on did i just give the dog what he wanted by acknowledging him against my will"

I was only going to ignore he until i sat down, and called him over to have him sit and then we would play a game.

He is very smart and the way he happily went and played with his toy was as if to say "ha ha made you look"

He is this crafty.

He is adorable and crafty.

so i thought mmmm maybe i should have ignored him even though the nippying until he gave up, and then i would have sat down and made him sit and started a game.

I dont want to be harsh on him, i just want a smooth way to behave with him so it becomes habite for him and me.

at the moment I 

Make him sit before going out of doors
make him sit before play
eat before him and make him sit and wait
pratice sit down stand and drop with him a few times a day and pratice having him look into my eyes for treats
take him for a morning and night walk and regular play sessions through the day, making him walk on lose lead and sitting and looking me in the eye when he pulls.
crate him 
rub his tummy so he is comfortable on his back.
growl at him and push him on the shoulder and into a half roll when he grabs hold of the kids.
and shake my coin jar at him for chewing the couch and stepping in his water bowl (damned webbed feet)
and of course lots of cuddles and games.

i think i have him well in hand to grow into a nice mannered young man but i am always in need to better my approach and build a closer and stronger bond with him.

I know he is only 10 weeks, but he is already 13kilos. I cant afford to let him run amok and train him when he is 6 months.

i know that for his happiness he needs heaps of execise and walks so really i train him to be wellbehaved so i dont have to leave him at home to get even more hyper, because i am afraid to walk him.

Thankyou all for your tips and advice

Jaymee


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