# ear cropping



## nicole84 (Nov 28, 2006)

How does everyone here feel about ear cropping?We have a 10 week old great dane puppy and every time i take him out in public and they find out what breed he is the first thing they ask me is when i'am i going to get his ears done.I have no intensions on having them done for i'am not showing him.I don't understand why people feel that if on certain breeds you don't get the ears done that they wont look right.I personal don't feel the need to put my dog through all the pain and bandage changes just so he will look as people think he should.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

I dont see anything wrong with it. It really isnt as painful as people think. I dont see anything wrong with getting it done or not getting it done. Its more a personal choice. i myself doubt i would bother with getting it done. I love floppy ears, ut i also do like the look of a nice crop. But I dont and probably wont ever show dogs. So I can do what i want i guess so to say lol. if people ask you. Just tell them your reasons. You dont want to crop them.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Ear cropping was meant to hide the imperfections of a dog's ears. At least this is how I think of it. I would tell the poeple that asked, if you wanted a dog with cropped ears you would have bought it that way...since it's never recommended to crop a dog's ears after it leaves the breeder. I would also tell them that your breeder is doing more to perfect the breed by keeping her ears intact...this may be very likely if your breeder is ethical. Take my schnauzer for example...any breeder can hack the ears off a dog, but a responsible breeder would have bred for ears that flop over well. Did you know that if Elsa were a show dog...and what a big IF that would be...I could only show her in the U.S. Only in U.S. arenas are cropped ears allowed on a schnauzer. Given a choice, Elsa's ears would be uncropped. Even with uncropped bat ears, I'd still find them adorable.


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## Dogged (Nov 19, 2006)

Hmmmm, so Tankstar, it wouldn't bother you if I surgically cut off large chunks of you ears and then jammed posts into your ears and taped your ears to them and to the side of your head and repeatedly tore the tape off and retaped and tore it off again, over and over. Just because I thought you would look better that way?????

I have never witnessed the actual ear cropping surgery while it was being done, but I have had to hold lots of puppies while they were wimpering and crying during tape removal and replacement procedures, awake. It is cruel and unusual and totally unnecessary.

You are absolutley right Nicole, there is nothing wrong with floppy ears and absolutley no good reason to put the poor dog through the ongoing torture of those procedures.


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## harleynstorm (Jan 14, 2007)

I have two dobermans and when I got my first one my husband really wanted to get his ears cropped. We asked our vet and because his ears were not perfectly even he said that we would probably have to get it done a second time and I personally thought that it would be to painful for him, which no one can say that it isn't painful because they are not having it done to them. I have had alot of people ask me why I didn't get his ears cropped and I tell them I like him the way he is, he has the softest ears and loves for me to give them a good rub. The reason they used to crop the ears was so the dogs didn't have that to grab ahold of when fighting. I am not against ear cropping but I just didn't like the thought of putting my dog through it. Dobermans and other dog look great either way. Here is a pic of my dobie Harley.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Good for you !!! He looks great, and he's lucky you feel like that.


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## nicole84 (Nov 28, 2006)

Dogged said:


> Hmmmm, so Tankstar, it wouldn't bother you if I surgically cut off large chunks of you ears and then jammed posts into your ears and taped your ears to them and to the side of your head and repeatedly tore the tape off and retaped and tore it off again, over and over. Just because I thought you would look better that way?????
> 
> I have never witnessed the actual ear cropping surgery while it was being done, but I have had to hold lots of puppies while they were wimpering and crying during tape removal and replacement procedures, awake. It is cruel and unusual and totally unnecessary.
> 
> You are absolutley right Nicole, there is nothing wrong with floppy ears and absolutley no good reason to put the poor dog through the ongoing torture of those procedures.


Thank you Dogged.I feel the sameway there's nothing wrong with floppy ears.


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## nicole84 (Nov 28, 2006)

He's a very handsome dobie.


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## babydolwv (Dec 5, 2006)

i agree hes a cutie... i see no sense in doing it unless there is a real need for it....


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

I never said that i would do it. I said I do not hate it. I said I like floppy ears. But if you are to show, some breeds need to have them cropped. back in the day cropping was done for some breeds so that their ears (and tails) didnt get in the way for them, to ripped at by other animals. 

having my own ears cropped? I'm not a dog. Humans and dogs are differnt. I wouldnt consider bring to differnt "animals" in to it. 

Again i never said that they had to be done. So please dont jump all over my personal opinion.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

I have mixed feelings on this....in a way. While I don't really agree with the cutting, folding and stitching of the ears, I have no problems with taping them just to shape. There are some breeds I think look awesome with the erect ears, the Great Dane and Doberman. But they look great floppy too. While other cropping jobs I think look aweful, the Neapolitan Mastiff, APBT....(and the Pitties ears were originally cropped to avoid damage from fights, which isn't acceptable these days anyway).

I think if you aren't planning on showing, there's no reason to do it. However, if I personally ever purchased a Great Dane, I would want to show, and would want the ears done. Since Danes are on my list of future dogs, it is quite possible I may end up with one down the road. I also love the Neo's (which I would not crop), Tosa Inu and Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, but it's possible I won't get the chance to own all of them.  And if I were to get another dog anytime soon, it would likely be the Neo.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

It is unnecessary. Look at how lovely that dobey looks with natural ears. It is illegal to cut ears over here.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

I agree, if showing in conformation is not on your agenda, I don't believe that ears should be cropped. It is to my understanding that they were originally removed (as well as the tail) to lessen any likelihood of them being torn off or damaged while intercepting an intruder or trespasser, as well as in fighting breeds to give the offending dog less to bite at (as if the poor dog's face wasn't enough). I heard many sides to the coin, but this explanation seems to resinate.

Yes, the maintenance and upkeep of the cropped ears is quite painful. What kills me the most is seeing pet owners who have cropped their dobe's ears but are not taking care of them properly - Or, my favorite: the sickly looking dobe at the pet shop with still bandaged ears sitting miserable in a cage on it's own collected feces. Painful infection is an all too familiar scenario for those poor pups.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

I"m totally against ear-cropping. Why mutilate the dog's natural ears for cosmetic reasons. There is no medical reason to do it (unlike tail docking).

I love the look of the uncropped ears in GD's, Boxers, and Dobies. Haven't seen uncropped in schnauzers yet, but I'm sure they are cute too. Anyone have an uncropped schnz with pictures?

Pleaseeeeeeeeee don't have your GD's ears done.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

There are a few mini schnatz in our local park - I'll get some pictures for you. Again they look much better au natural


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Thanks 

When I first saw uncropped dogs, they looked funny, but now I've been seeing more and more (especially with boxers) of uncropped ears and I thank the owners for NOT having them done


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## nicole84 (Nov 28, 2006)

Keno's Mom said:


> I"m totally against ear-cropping. Why mutilate the dog's natural ears for cosmetic reasons. There is no medical reason to do it (unlike tail docking).
> 
> I love the look of the uncropped ears in GD's, Boxers, and Dobies. Haven't seen uncropped in schnauzers yet, but I'm sure they are cute too. Anyone have an uncropped schnz with pictures?
> 
> Pleaseeeeeeeeee don't have your GD's ears done.


I have no intension of have his ears done.I have owned danes for over 22 years now and i have never had any of there ears done.I have adopted danes that have already had the ears done and i do think that they look nice with them done but i would not have it done to mine.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Ear cropping was meant to hide the imperfections of a dog's ears. At least this is how I think of it. I would tell the poeple that asked, if you wanted a dog with cropped ears you would have bought it that way...since it's never recommended to crop a dog's ears after it leaves the breeder. I would also tell them that your breeder is doing more to perfect the breed by keeping her ears intact...this may be very likely if your breeder is ethical. Take my schnauzer for example...any breeder can hack the ears off a dog, but a responsible breeder would have bred for ears that flop over well. Did you know that if Elsa were a show dog...and what a big IF that would be...I could only show her in the U.S. Only in U.S. arenas are cropped ears allowed on a schnauzer. Given a choice, Elsa's ears would be uncropped. Even with uncropped bat ears, I'd still find them adorable.



to my understanding, dogs born after a certain yr (can't remember when) are not allowed cropped ears, even in the US.....there is no reason for it and, yes, it is a painful thing to be done.....every person i have ever spoken w/ on the matter that had breeds that "required" cropped ears has said the same thing.....yes, it hurts, just like any surgery hurts, but some (surgeries) are necessary and ear cropping is not........


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## Heinton (Jan 11, 2007)

When we decided to adopt a Doberman I hoped we'd find one with natural ears, but it's unusual in the US and I didn't hold out much hope. Then we saw Bogart! His ears are so soft and make him look less intimidating. I'm not a fan of cropping, and can't imagine having it done for any reason! My vet told me they don't teach it in the local vet school anymore.


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## capm (Dec 30, 2006)

Cropping is an unecesary risk in my opinion. I've seen more than a few dogs scarred for life because their owners didn't properly care for their ears during the healing process. Why risk it unless you're a fanatic about "the way" your dog should look. 

Curbside is correct. Once the pup leaves the breeder it's a no-no.

By the way Bogart is just beautiful and I'm not even a Dobie man.....


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## good_dog (Jan 16, 2007)

Nicole, Personally, i have a rotti...so we got to deal with the tail crop. We actually rescued Brandi from the pound when she was about 10 weeks. And we actually got a lot of pressure at first to crop her tail. But it's a HUGE surgery at that point, we opted not to. First of all, we don't have papers, so we couldn't show her. And it's only an estetic issue. Like I said at first we had a lot of questions, but now people will ask about it occasionally at the dog park but it's not a big deal. She happy, she's healthy and she's perfect just the way she is. And if it helps...in europe they are swaying away from ear cropping and tail docking and things of that nature....even in show dogs.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

good_dog said:


> Nicole, Personally, i have a rotti...so we got to deal with the tail crop. We actually rescued Brandi from the pound when she was about 10 weeks. And we actually got a lot of pressure at first to crop her tail. But it's a HUGE surgery at that point, we opted not to. First of all, we don't have papers, so we couldn't show her. And it's only an estetic issue. Like I said at first we had a lot of questions, but now people will ask about it occasionally at the dog park but it's not a big deal. She happy, she's healthy and she's perfect just the way she is. And if it helps...in europe they are swaying away from ear cropping and tail docking and things of that nature....even in show dogs.


Tail docking isn't just for esthetics. I don't mind the look of an undocked Rottweiler or a docked one, but regardless of the look, I know for a fact that Rottweilers can be very clumsy. I had a Rottweiler mix a few years back that had a tail, and he broke it, luckily the vet bill was only $200, and a major surgery wasn't required. Not only that, I am about so start working my dogs (as a working breed who really benefits from it). But working them can also put their tails in harms way, and something I'd be very wary of even starting if they had tails. I also love to go camping and hiking, which my dogs come along for, and I'm happy that my dogs are docked, and I don't need to worry that they will damage their tails (and yes, i've seen some nasty tail injuries, one specifically on a tree with a sharp, pointy fallen branch, that almost sliced clear through one 3rd of the dogs tail). And all the dog was doing was jogging through the trail with his owner. Plus, I didn't have a choice on PJ and Tysa, they came docked....LOL.

But, as you said, at 10 weeks, it would be considered a major surgery, and you really didn't have a choice whether to dock your dog or not even if you wanted to, most vets would not do unless there was damage to the tail that required it.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Tail docking isn't just for esthetics. I don't mind the look of an undocked Rottweiler or a docked one, but regardless of the look, I know for a fact that Rottweilers can be very clumsy. I had a Rottweiler mix a few years back that had a tail, and he broke it, luckily the vet bill was only $200, and a major surgery wasn't required. Not only that, I am about so start working my dogs (as a working breed who really benefits from it). But working them can also put their tails in harms way, and something I'd be very wary of even starting if they had tails. I also love to go camping and hiking, which my dogs come along for, and I'm happy that my dogs are docked, and I don't need to worry that they will damage their tails (and yes, i've seen some nasty tail injuries, one specifically on a tree with a sharp, pointy fallen branch, that almost sliced clear through one 3rd of the dogs tail). And all the dog was doing was jogging through the trail with his owner. Plus, I didn't have a choice on PJ and Tysa, they came docked....LOL.
> 
> But, as you said, at 10 weeks, it would be considered a major surgery, and you really didn't have a choice whether to dock your dog or not even if you wanted to, most vets would not do unless there was damage to the tail that required it.


if you look at it in this manner than EVERY dog should have it's tail docked.....the Rotts, Dobes, Boxers, etc that i have seen over the yrs that did not have their tails cut had no more of a problem w/ them than my GSD (who had little knots and sometimes sores on his tail almost constantly when i lived in my trailer [close quarters] but went away when i moved into my house [more space]).......so maybe all dogs should have their tails cut off so that we, as people, don't have to deal w/ injuries to them.....but then what do we do about broken legs, body sores, eye problems......

one thing that always struck me funny is the AKC states that the dog should be shown in it "natural beauty".....so where does the tail docking and ear cropping come into play w/ natural beauty?.....JMO


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> one thing that always struck me funny is the AKC states that the dog should be shown in it "natural beauty".....so where does the tail docking and ear cropping come into play w/ natural beauty?.....JMO


Very good point.. the AKC can be so contradicting sometimes.


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## mistyinca (Oct 25, 2006)

harleynstorm said:


> I have had alot of people ask me why I didn't get his ears cropped and I tell them I like him the way he is, he has the softest ears and loves for me to give them a good rub.


You're right! He is absolutely adorable the way he is! What a cutie!


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

tirluc said:


> if you look at it in this manner than EVERY dog should have it's tail docked.....the Rotts, Dobes, Boxers, etc that i have seen over the yrs that did not have their tails cut had no more of a problem w/ them than my GSD (who had little knots and sometimes sores on his tail almost constantly when i lived in my trailer [close quarters] but went away when i moved into my house [more space]).......so maybe all dogs should have their tails cut off so that we, as people, don't have to deal w/ injuries to them.....but then what do we do about broken legs, body sores, eye problems......


I never said all dogs should be docked..LOL. As for broken legs, body sores and eye problems, removing those limbs/organs is quite a bit different than docking a tail.  Tail docking on pups is a very minor procedure and one that has absolutely no effect on the outcome of the dog. 
I prefer my ROTTIES docked, because of the activities I want to do with them, and because they can be so clumsy. No matter, that is MY choice, and it should be a choice. Since docking puppies at 3-5 days causes very little pain and it is only momentary (I'd compare it to humans getting ears pierced), the issue of it being inhumane is way off base. Whether it is for looks or for the safety of the dog, really makes no difference, the pain inflicted from docking a newborn pup is really not that big of a deal. They don't dwell on it or suffer any after effects. Within minutes of the procedure, all they want to do is eat or sleep. 
People also have a choice on spaying and neutering their pets, a painful surgery that WE CHOOSE to do to our pets. People who only have one pet and are responsible owners still spay/neuter their dogs, if we're going for the debate on a dog being "au natural", wouldn't that include there "bits and pieces" also? And just to make it clear, I am a fan of S/N.


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## Dogged (Nov 19, 2006)

Spaying and neutering have have alot of health and behavioral benefits, cropping and docking don't. I personally don't agree with cutting the tail off due to the off chance of it being injured later. I have been a vet tech for over 20 years, and I still hate to help with the tail docking procedures. Those poor little days old pups having their tails ripped off. They scream at the top of their barely formed lungs. It absolutely is painful for them. Yes, most do "seem" to recover quickly from it and don't "seem" to suffer lasting effects, but how do we know. I have also seen adult docked dogs that have a lifelong sensitivity at the end of their cut tail. My poodle is one.


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## Dogged (Nov 19, 2006)

Tankstar said:


> I dont see anything wrong with it. It really isnt as painful as people think.





> Again I never said that they had to be done. So please don't jump all over my personal opinion


"Really isn't as painful as people think" I guess this is a personal opinion, but you are kinda stating it as fact. The only way I can know if it is painful is to consider how I would react if it was done to me, and then take into account all the poor pups that I have seen crying over the retaping procedures. My opinion is that it is friggin painful, and totally unnecessary.

Sometimes people don't anthropomorphize enough.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

This reminds me of a thread I saw once about circumcision for babies.


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## harleynstorm (Jan 14, 2007)

Dogged said:


> Spaying and neutering have have alot of health and behavioral benefits, cropping and docking don't. I personally don't agree with cutting the tail off due to the off chance of it being injured later. I have been a vet tech for over 20 years, and I still hate to help with the tail docking procedures. Those poor little days old pups having their tails ripped off. They scream at the top of their barely formed lungs. It absolutely is painful for them. Yes, most do "seem" to recover quickly from it and don't "seem" to suffer lasting effects, but how do we know. I have also seen adult docked dogs that have a lifelong sensitivity at the end of their cut tail. My poodle is one.


My dobie had his tail docked while he was with the breeder and his tail is sensitive to, if i grab his tail he tries to sit. It is kind of funny but I didn't think it was from his tail being docked until I read your post.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Yes, I never said docking wasn't painful, but it is momentary.

I've owned 4 docked Rottweilers, and none have shown sensetivity at the tip of their tails or any other kind of problem for that matter. We could argue this till we are blue in the face, and still have different opinions on it though. I personally would rather have a pups suffer a momentary flash of pain, over a major surger which is MUCH more painful after the tail is fully formed. As small as you may feel the risks are, I'm not prepared to have my dogs go through something like that, regardless of if the risk is 1 in a million or 1 in 5. Does that classify me as a bad dog owner, or sound like someone who doesn't care about the health and well being of their dogs?

If I owned a breed that wasn't clumsy and goofy...LOL...and I wasn't going to work them, then I most certainly would want to keep the tail. As it stands, I have my Rotties, they are healthy, happy AND stumpy.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Snowshoe said:


> This reminds me of a thread I saw once about circumcision for babies.


i'm glad that you mentioned this.....i read somewhere once that the docking of the tail can be equated to the circumcision of a baby....they said for many yrs that the baby doesn't feel anything and that it has no lifelong effect on a human, either....but there are others (psycologist/therapists) today that will say that it does, that some of the men hypnotized and taken back to their earliest recollection can remember being strapped to a board and having a part of their personal parts removed, a band put around their personal part and left to lay there in their cribs wondering what in the world just happened (yes, folks, this is [or at least, was] how it's done...can't even have someone cuddling them in the process)....this is something that we will never know for certain and i, personally, don't think that the procedure is necessary....in either circumcision.....

yes, i agree that it is a persons choice to have this done....but what about the dogs choice.....what would they decide?....and, as already stated, spaying and neutering is also beneficial to the animal for health reasons and this is the ONLY reason that i have ever had any of my dogs S/N.....i have no reason to otherwise as none of my intact dogs or bitches have ever produced an unwanted/unplanned litter of puppies.....


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Yes, I never said docking wasn't painful, but it is momentary.
> 
> I've owned 4 docked Rottweilers, and none have shown sensetivity at the tip of their tails or any other kind of problem for that matter. We could argue this till we are blue in the face, and still have different opinions on it though. I personally would rather have a pups suffer a momentary flash of pain, over a major surger which is MUCH more painful after the tail is fully formed. As small as you may feel the risks are, I'm not prepared to have my dogs go through something like that, regardless of if the risk is 1 in a million or 1 in 5. Does that classify me as a bad dog owner, or sound like someone who doesn't care about the health and well being of their dogs?
> 
> If I owned a breed that wasn't clumsy and goofy...LOL...and I wasn't going to work them, then I most certainly would want to keep the tail. As it stands, I have my Rotties, they are healthy, happy AND stumpy.


How can we possibly know that the pain is momentary? That's been said of circumcision for years, but now they're finding that's not true at all. I've seen the theory stated (even on these boards) that dogs will instinctively hide their pain to keep from becoming prey. I would think that this is even more true of puppies who have just been taken from mama and attacked. Wolf cubs would certainly remain quiet to hide themselves from predators when mama is away.

When talking about injuries, someone brought up the point that other extremities are injured too, but we don't amputate them as a preventative. What I've never heard addressed is, if docking is such a great preventative, why aren't Dalmatians docked? Their tails are just as active, just as whiplike, and just as ill-protected by fur, as any docked breed, and yet it's not done. Poodles are docked, but Bichon Frise are not, and yet they are extremely similar in body type, and I'd defy any layman to tell the difference between an undocked poodle tail and a Bichon tail. Most people can't even tell the difference between a Bichon and a white poodle unless the poodle is docked.

IMO, any reason that is given for docking dogs today who are not doing the job they were originally bred to do, is a bogus reason that can be contradicted easily by pointing out other similar breeds. And the saddest thing is that by continuing to allow docking, we condemn the majority of purebred dogs, which come from puppymills and backyard breeders, to be at the mercy of those disreputable breeders who usually do not want to spend the money to have a vet dock the pups, and will do it themselves. This results in puppies whose tails are docked too long, or too short - sometimes requiring euthanasia because of the butchering of their tail and spinal cord. I've even seen puppies who have been docked and sutured with dental floss.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Ok well I definately don't agree with people docking themselves, and do think a vet should be the one doing it if it is done.

As for "not knowing" if docking is only momentary, there's nothing I've concluded that it is, but in the same token, can you prove that it does have any lasting pain?

For those of you who mentioned docked dogs having sensetivity in the tips of their tails, well that's just theory that it was the docking that was the cause. I've met many dogs with sensetivity in their tails (that have natural tails), or to being touched in specific places.

The point is, that you just don't know, and unless proven otherwise, I will continue to believe that tail docking in puppies is not inhumane, and does not effect the outcome of the dog as an adult. And that's not just a guess, the proof for me is in the 3 dogs laying down beside me.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Ok well I definately don't agree with people docking themselves, and do think a vet should be the one doing it if it is done.
> 
> As for "not knowing" if docking is only momentary, there's nothing I've concluded that it is, but in the same token, can you prove that it does have any lasting pain?
> 
> ...


I think the Hipocratic Oath says "First, do no harm." I subscribe to that theory when there is doubt about the benefits of something like this. No, I can't prove there is a lasting pain, but the pure fact that I don't know is enough for me to not have it done. You don't know either, but you are willing to take the chance. I feel like I have the right to do that with my own body, but not the bodies belonging to others when it's not absolutely necessary.

I've never quite understood this theory that one should continue doing something that may be painful until it's proven that it really is painful. I sure hope to never be the victim of such a theory. Geez.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Ok, to your response about Dalmations, last I heard they weren't a working breed either.  I don't think firehouse dogs count as working dogs.  

To the pain issue, I've been around docked puppies, and no, they didn't appear to be suffering from any pain or lasting effects from the procedure. In fact, they just fell asleep until the next feeding. So I'm inclined to believe that there isn't. I don't know about you, but I personally find it impossible to sleep when I'm in pain. I'm not saying that I've only seen adults after a docking job, I've seen puppies very soon after having it done.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

another thing that was pointed out to me once (by a vet) is that dogs who's tails are docked extremely close to the body (Rotts, Aussies, etc) will many times suffer from "pooping" problems.....that it has something to do w/ nerve endings in the "stump" that are crucial for the "pooping" mechanism to work right.....

and being that nobody knows (and maybe never will, for that matter) about the pain end, i, personally, don't want the thought in my head that i may have caused unnecessary pain to a very new life.....

and on the aspect of the other limbs getting injured, one thing that is a given in some breeds (Cockers?) is the cherry eye problem.....so should we "cut out" the eyelids on these puppies so that they don't have this problem when they grow older?.....i may sound like i'm getting "far fetched" but just how far is that?.....


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Ok, to your response about Dalmations, last I heard they weren't a working breed either.  I don't think firehouse dogs count as working dogs.
> 
> To the pain issue, I've been around docked puppies, and no, they didn't appear to be suffering from any pain or lasting effects from the procedure. In fact, they just fell asleep until the next feeding. So I'm inclined to believe that there isn't. I don't know about you, but I personally find it impossible to sleep when I'm in pain. I'm not saying that I've only seen adults after a docking job, I've seen puppies very soon after having it done.


I think it depends on the type of pain. The best way I know to get rid of my own headache (besides for not reading stupid posts by irresponsible breeders <vbg>, is a couple of tylenol and a nap. I'm usually asleep before the tylenol has taken effect. And I may or may not complain about it, depending on my mood at the time <G>.

Now, about Dalmatians. They aren't even in a category that defines their job. They are in the same category as the Boston Terrier and the Bichon Frise. Go figure. But they were bred to be companions and protectors of coach horses. Considering that means they would be in stables and around coaches, one would think that their whip-like tails would be at risk, and the same goes for Great Danes. So I'm just not convinced that the "injury" excuse makes sense when there are so many other natural tailed dogs that can also be injured. And, if you add the fact that most of the dogs bred to be working breeds do little to no work at all, I think that docking to suit some idea of what they were originally bred to do, makes no sense.

So out of all the Rottweilers bred in this country, how many do you think perform the function that Rottweilers were originally bred for?


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> So out of all the Rottweilers bred in this country, how many do you think perform the function that Rottweilers were originally bred for?


Very true and likely not a big percentage, but I'm talking about my dogs, which are working except Maya, who will be once she is old enough to start training.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Very true and likely not a big percentage, but I'm talking about my dogs, which are working except Maya, who will be once she is old enough to start training.


Though I still don't like the idea of docking, maybe this should be something that's by request only, and a valid reason should have to be given. I'd like to see cropping and docking stopped when done only for aesthetics.

Of course if people would only get their purebred puppies from responsible breeders, the breeders would know far ahead of time what the dog was going to be used for, and those that weren't going to be doing a job that required docked tails, wouldn't have to have it done.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> Though I still don't like the idea of docking, maybe this should be something that's by request only, and a valid reason should have to be given. I'd like to see cropping and docking stopped when done only for aesthetics.
> 
> Of course if people would only get their purebred puppies from responsible breeders, the breeders would know far ahead of time what the dog was going to be used for, and those that weren't going to be doing a job that required docked tails, wouldn't have to have it done.


And I think that is a fantastic idea! 

ETA - I guess I should say why I think this is an excellent idea...LOL. Ok, I'm not against docking to start with but there are those who don't agree with it. So this way, it works for those who have good reason for wanting the dock, and gives peace of mind to those who oppose it being done for no good reason. If only somehow this could be passed as a law, it would be great. Meeting halfway on the issue is a great idea.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Meeting halfway on the issue is a great idea.


Wouldn't it be nice if that could happen more often?


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> Wouldn't it be nice if that could happen more often?


Hmmm, I guess it depends on the issue at hand...LOL. I wouldn't meet anyone halfway when it comes to my view on breeding dogs. If the "breeder" isn't ethical and responsible, I'll never be ok with them breeding their dogs.

It's really too bad that a law can't be passed where only ethical and responsible people are allowed to breed, having to "pass" certain requirements. It would be a lot easier to make your idea a reality!


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Hmmm, I guess it depends on the issue at hand...LOL. I wouldn't meet anyone halfway when it comes to my view on breeding dogs. If the "breeder" isn't ethical and responsible, I'll never be ok with them breeding their dogs.
> 
> It's really too bad that a law can't be passed where only ethical and responsible people are allowed to breed, having to "pass" certain requirements. It would be a lot easier to make your idea a reality!


the problem w/ that is where do you draw the line at ethical (responsible would be a bit simpler).....what one person considers ethical does not necessarily mean everyone does.....


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## wimersweiners (Jan 11, 2007)

Actually, the Doberman cropping was done as part of the purpose of the dog being a guard dog. Originally cropped ears and tails gave no "handhold" for a person to keep the dog from getting to them. That is why the original ear crop was so short. Then people started to give them what they called show cuts to show off more of the ear bell.
Now that they are more pet then guard the cropping is just cosmetic.
I had a Dobe that was both long eared and long tail....everyone thought he was a black and tan coonhound. Ha Ha
Nancy


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Hmmm, I guess it depends on the issue at hand...LOL. I wouldn't meet anyone halfway when it comes to my view on breeding dogs. If the "breeder" isn't ethical and responsible, I'll never be ok with them breeding their dogs.
> 
> It's really too bad that a law can't be passed where only ethical and responsible people are allowed to breed, having to "pass" certain requirements. It would be a lot easier to make your idea a reality!


We agree again.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

I had my Dobie's ears cropped and here are the main reasons for it:

1) When I was younger I fell in love with the "classic" Doberman look and thats why I wanted him to look just like I remembered.

2) If some Kid at the park sees my Doberman with floppy ears and starts running at him because he only sees a "doggy" in order to pet him, that puts my dog in an uncomfortable situation. Although my Doberman is not aggressive to people he might take the kid as a threat to himself or me and who knows what will happen. I like my dog to look aggressive and "mean" to keep him out of trouble.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> I had my Dobie's ears cropped and here are the main reasons for it:
> 
> 1) When I was younger I fell in love with the "classic" Doberman look and thats why I wanted him to look just like I remembered.
> 
> 2) If some Kid at the park sees my Doberman with floppy ears and starts running at him because he only sees a "doggy" in order to pet him, that puts my dog in an uncomfortable situation. Although my Doberman is not aggressive to people he might take the kid as a threat to himself or me and who knows what will happen. I like my dog to look aggressive and "mean" to keep him out of trouble.


My dog's ears were cropped...not by my choice...does she look mean?


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> My dog's ears were cropped...not by my choice...does she look mean?


vicious


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## Heinton (Jan 11, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> I had my Dobie's ears cropped and here are the main reasons for it:
> 
> 1) When I was younger I fell in love with the "classic" Doberman look and thats why I wanted him to look just like I remembered.
> 
> 2) If some Kid at the park sees my Doberman with floppy ears and starts running at him because he only sees a "doggy" in order to pet him, that puts my dog in an uncomfortable situation. Although my Doberman is not aggressive to people he might take the kid as a threat to himself or me and who knows what will happen. I like my dog to look aggressive and "mean" to keep him out of trouble.


Imho, it's better to teach the child the correct way to approach a dog. I've been bitten by 3 dogs, 2 were what you would probably call friendly-looking. I guess I prefer that people feel safe asking me to pet my dog (regardless of the breed) than to instill unreasonable fear in them. We didn't have a choice with Bogart, we adopted him as an adult. But given the choice I wouldn't even consider cropping. Ok I admit it: I just love fondling his long, velvety ears


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

I don't like strangers approaching my dog and thinking they have the right to touch him either, but to me it makes more sense for me to say no to them than to put my dog through a surgical procedure.


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## k9poopscoot (Jan 18, 2007)

My dog is a mini schnauzer and he is not cropped or docked. Every day I get comments on how adorable he is. I have a friend who had her dogs ears cropped for show and the trouble of trying to keep them straight while keeping them taped was enough to never do it again. She ended up wrapping Popsicle sticks inside of tampon cotton to hold the shape. She cut the strings off so no one knew what was holding her dogs ears up. The dog also had to wear an e- collar for months straight. Most crops on danes don't even stand up anyway. I say leave the ears. A full floppy ear looks better than a cropped floppy one if vanity is your concern.


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## y2jae21 (Dec 23, 2006)

wimersweiners said:


> Actually, the Doberman cropping was done as part of the purpose of the dog being a guard dog. Originally cropped ears and tails gave no "handhold" for a person to keep the dog from getting to them. That is why the original ear crop was so short. Then people started to give them what they called show cuts to show off more of the ear bell.
> Now that they are more pet then guard the cropping is just cosmetic.
> I had a Dobe that was both long eared and long tail....everyone thought he was a black and tan coonhound. Ha Ha
> Nancy



how do you explain rottweilers?


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## nicole84 (Nov 28, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> I don't like strangers approaching my dog and thinking they have the right to touch him either, but to me it makes more sense for me to say no to them than to put my dog through a surgical procedure.


I couldn't agree anymore.Both of my danes have natrual ears and people are still intimanated by them and they didn't have to go through any unnessasery surgery.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

nicole84 said:


> I couldn't agree anymore.Both of my danes have natrual ears and people are still intimanated by them and they didn't have to go through any unnessasery surgery.


when a dog is half your height and prob weights more than you, people are going to get intimidated with or without the ears.


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## y2jae21 (Dec 23, 2006)

rotts arent cropped, but they still look mean and vicious. just imagine if rotts were cropped *shivers*


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## wimersweiners (Jan 11, 2007)

y2jae21 said:


> how do you explain rottweilers?


I knew someone would say that. Probably because Rotts are so heavy bodied that it would not matter about the ears...but the tail is still docked.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

y2jae21 said:


> rotts arent cropped, but they still look mean and vicious. just imagine if rotts were cropped *shivers*


What?!?! They look "mean and vicious"????

Like this?...












No wait, this one looks totally mean and vicious!! Run for your life, I'm sure he's gonna attack!!











Sorry, I joke, but that's a totally biased statement.


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## y2jae21 (Dec 23, 2006)

sorry! lol. i meant they are already cool looking, not in a dangerous kind of way. your rotts are adorable btw. can all rottweilers puncture soccer balls??


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Well that one never actually did get punctured, it just got deflated from months of play in the yard. But I would assume any dog that could get it's jaws around a soccer ball could puncture it...LOL. Even those that can't get around it, a little deflation and it wouldn't take much.


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## harleynstorm (Jan 14, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> I had my Dobie's ears cropped and here are the main reasons for it:
> 
> 1) When I was younger I fell in love with the "classic" Doberman look and thats why I wanted him to look just like I remembered.
> 
> 2) If some Kid at the park sees my Doberman with floppy ears and starts running at him because he only sees a "doggy" in order to pet him, that puts my dog in an uncomfortable situation. Although my Doberman is not aggressive to people he might take the kid as a threat to himself or me and who knows what will happen. I like my dog to look aggressive and "mean" to keep him out of trouble.


My dobies ears are not cropped and people still find him intimidating. Your reason for wanting it done just for the look is selfish and why make him look mean? My dobie plays great with rowdy children. A responsible owner wouldn't let a accident like the one you are talking about happen. There are things to do to prepare for a situation like that. I just don't find your reasoning reasonable.


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## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

harleynstorm said:


> My dobies ears are not cropped and people still find him intimidating. Your reason for wanting it done just for the look is selfish and why make him look mean? My dobie plays great with rowdy children. A responsible owner wouldn't let a accident like the one you are talking about happen. There are things to do to prepare for a situation like that. I just don't find your reasoning reasonable.


I'd rather be safe than sorry. You can be responsible all you want, but at the end of the day you are dealing with an animal and not a human...


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## nicole84 (Nov 28, 2006)

harleynstorm said:


> My dobies ears are not cropped and people still find him intimidating. Your reason for wanting it done just for the look is selfish and why make him look mean? My dobie plays great with rowdy children. A responsible owner wouldn't let a accident like the one you are talking about happen. There are things to do to prepare for a situation like that. I just don't find your reasoning reasonable.


Thank you harleynstorm i highly agree with you.


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## Misanthrope222001 (Nov 7, 2008)

Hello, I have been doing a lot of reading of forums and I completely understand both sides of the coin. Alot of people that get so angry and upidy about what other people do; and, ultimately the very same emotions seem to cloud their reason. " There is no purpose whatsoever for having this done" This procedure is meant for nothing other than vanity. I live in teton county,wyoming in the grand tetons. No one has mentioned a thing about how the erect or cropped ears do make the dogs hearing about 4 times as accurate. ( this is not a disputed issue, many conclusive studies have been done ) I, also am on the teton county search and rescue team where, my dobes crop really translates to a major advantage. Don't get me wrong, I know that I am an incredibly terrible person for having "mutilated" my dog and best friend of over 7 years like this. But if you were up here on the losing end of an unexpected avalanche, where seconds could very well mean your life; will you be thinking of what a horrible thing I've done? Or will you honestly be thankful that my dog had 100% access to all of his perceptions? The issue is so stereotyped. For most, if you are an ear cropper, you are all the same and one big group of inhumane jerks. I started this account for this one post. I think some people should open their minds at least enough to keep themselves from being blinded by their own, painfully human, emotions.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

I really love the look of danes with natural ears. I think it reflects their goofy, happy personality much better then those HIDIOUSLY UGLY MEAN LOOKING cropped ears.


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## tippi (Oct 24, 2008)

this is a very contreversial topic. i am a dobe breeder.
in germany the breed was developed to assist and protect the tax collector. ears and tails were cropped to keep other dogs from latching onto them and fighting .
my dogs are docked and cropped. i do show some of my dogs. its a doberman STANDARD.
my sons were curcumsized. i cried for them. when my dogs ears are cropped i cry. this is in no way to say either is right.
its simply what i chose to do. 
i respect both natural and cropped. 
having a litter is terribly expensive. many tests to see if the bitch is sound to give birth. vet bills, stud fees, dew claws, tail docking, all shots etc....
why do i breed? to better the breed from what has been going on now for years. white dobes are a mistake of nature. they sell for upwards 6000.00 . thats criminal to me. and lots of inbreeding from BRBs.
\ back on the topic, if a potential adoptive family expects to see my bitch look like a doberman, that means cropped ears. so, my passion for breeding sound, stable, socialbly desireable dogsand sell them , to date i crop. the day may come when i do not.


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## tippi (Oct 24, 2008)

in my 60 yrs ive had dogs with antural ears. they are more prone to ear infections. i agree their hearing is better without the flop:response to wyoming poster.
by the way we had a ranch 100 yrs ago near rawlings. love wyoming!


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## Ender (Sep 16, 2008)

Has anyone here actually seen a puppy having his ears cropped or his tail docked? Has anyone had to hold tiny days old yorkie pups while the vet sliced off their tails with scissors and the puppy is screaming and crying and trying his best to get away? Have you ever seen a puppy waking up from an ear crop? He's crying and shaking his head and throwing blood everywhere before he's even concious. 

I have. And I could never stand to do it to a creature I loved. Every time I see cropped ears or a docked tail, I think about the pain they went through and I just want to cry.


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2007)

I’m just happy to have a breed which doesn’t have any cropped ear/docked tail standard.

-n


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## StarfishSaving (Nov 7, 2008)

britishbandit said:


> What?!?! They look "mean and vicious"????
> 
> Like this?...
> 
> ...


OH, the HUMANITY!!!!!!

LOOK at what that adorable- I mean HORRIBLE- beast did to that soccer ball. What if that was a baby???

(I seriously can't stop laughing- the second picture looks like Don Juan or something)


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

I have 3 pups, and 2 came with docked tails: AND THEY ARE MUTTS. Around here, it's actually common to dock mutts, regardless of breed or pretty much anything else. I just don't get it.


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## Filnyyena (Jul 24, 2008)

StarfishSaving said:


> OH, the HUMANITY!!!!!!
> 
> LOOK at what that adorable- I mean HORRIBLE- beast did to that soccer ball. What if that was a baby???
> 
> (I seriously can't stop laughing- the second picture looks like Don Juan or something)


CAREFUL THERE That rose has THORNS 

He isn't as innocent as he looks!! Be ware!


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## PatriciaLynn (Oct 20, 2008)

I like the look of a Boxer with PROPERLY cropped ears, but I didn't have any intention of cropping Champ's ears when we got him. His ears contribute so much to his expression that I can't imagine him any other way. I love his natural ears!


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

I have assisted on tail docks, dewclaw removals and ear crops. None are a pretty surgeries, but who am I to pass judgment on someone else. While I do think that tail docks & dewclaw removal in 3-5 day old pups is painful, I do no know if it lasts forever or if the pups have a lasting memory. I don't remember what happened to me yesterday, let alone what happened when I was a mere 72 hours old. 

One poster commented on their docked dog not wanting its tail grabbed; to that, I say that after >10 years in veterinary medicine, I cannot recall one dog (docked or not) that appreciated its tail being grabbed. That generally equates to a rectal temperature, which dogs generally don't find pleasant.

Back to the subject at hand. I don't ever feel like I'll own a cropped breed; however, I absolutely love the way a nice crop looks. Were I to decide I wanted a doberman or a dane, I'd adopt one whose ears were already done. I am far too lazy to deal with ear taping. I also think that proper pain management is absolutely essential throughout the entire process (including taping!).

And that is my $0.02.


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

We had a cocker with a docked tail when I was a child. She was definately tail sensitive to a degree my 2 w/ docked tails now are not. The vet told us "sometimes something goes wrong and they are sensitive" - I sort of associated it with phantom leg / arm syndrome you see in human amputees.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

I am very against tail docking and ear cropping. To me, it's a cruel and inhumane way to deform an animals natural look. There are only two procedures that I feel absolutely fine doing, neuter/spaying, and declaw removal. Only because Neuter/Spay prevents cancers and other health issues, and dewclaws are removed because they become easily snagged on things, so it's also a health issue.

There's no sense in slicing up a dogs ears or chopping off its tail all in the name of 'breeding' or 'showing'. It's all cosmetic, and purely for looks. And I think it's a sad shame that any animal lover would put their loyal companions thru the pain of these hack jobs.

As a vet tech, I watched many dogs have their tails removed. Even though the puppies were young, they still cried and screamed the minute those sharp pair of scissors sliced off nearly their entire tail.

I've watch countless breeds have their ears sliced off, including many boxers, danes, pits, and dobies. It's sad, these dogs wake up and they are in near instant pain, even with pain killers. Their ears are sowed up one side and down the other, and they hurt like hell. 

I've seen dogs get infections from ear cropping. And a good friend of mine lost her 15 week old great dane puppy just a few months ago. She brought her to the vet to have her ears cropped, and the dog died during the surgery. She still blames herself, and it's sad. This innocent animal died in the name of beauty, all because the owner wanted her to conform to an 'image'.

I currently do not have any dogs with cropped ears or a tail. Would I rescue one with a docked/ear or tail? Absolutely. Would I ever get a breed that was typical of these procedures and have it done? Not a chance on earth. I love my dogs too much to put them thru that needless pain and suffering.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

On my dane forum alot of the U.S. breeders and owners prefer the crop because of terrible ear infections that run common in Danes with natural ears. 

Now, someone posted up the question "*IF* a law is passed here in the states banning cropping, will you still own danes?"

For the OP she stated "a dane is a dane to me cropped or not" That is my belief... but wow... some of the answers just shocked me.

1 Answer "Ive thought of this before and I probably would BUT I no several friends that are dane judges that swear theyd not show or breed anymore if they outlawed cropping."

2 Answer- from a breeder owner handler... "Both myself an I speak for hubby to; would definitely fall in the category Lisa mentioned above. We would no longer own or show the breed if ear cropping was banned. I too know fellow Dane peers that feel the same way. The total package for us includes that of the regal, majestic, cropped appearance."

3 Answer- that was directed to the above poster... but not obviously directed... if you catch my drift. "I think it would be a little silly just to stop breeding, owning or shoing a Dane just because they can't have cropped ears anymore!"

4 Answer- from the same breeder owner handler... "Maybe in your eyes, not mine."

5 Answer- here is another breeder... "Its not just looks their is health benefits for some I had hygroms from floppy ears she had huge ears and shake head and their id go and shed have pain drains infection it was never ending her vet even said she should have been cropped and I no some depending on ear leather size skin fold ect...has had more issues with ear infections,mites,yeast infections etc... yes these can happen to any but Ive seen more in Natural then cropped with these reoccuring issues.Even vets have differing opinions on it I have 2 vets that will say what I just did and I no other vets thats against cropping and disagree with them."

So there are medical reasons to it... but some people are just plain out superficial snobs! And I couldnt believe it! I mean... A DANE IS A DANE!!! A Dobe is a Dobe! (lol adobe, uggh im so immature ) A dog is a dog no matter what. They have their personality with or without their ears. I hate it when people are like... no he has to have his ears cut or I wont take him.

In the future, I plan on showing my dane... i already have my breeder picked out and have spoken to her for about a year now. I WILL crop his ears... why? Because I have seen the horrors of ear infections and pain... and I will not deny that a cropped show dane has the stronger look in the show ring. But to say one would never own the breed again if it was banned... is completely shallow.
Nessa


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

> I hate it when people are like... no he has to have his ears cut or I wont take him.


I, too, think that is ridiculous. The person that you quoted in Answer 2, does not need to even own a dog, in my opinion. I mean, honestly, how much of a dog lover can you be if you said that you will not ever own the breed again if you can't slice their ears. That's beyond ridiculous.

Dogs are dogs, people who love them get them for the love and companionship they give, not just based solely on their looks. It's like saying, I only love Blue because he's chocolate in color. Any other color, and I wouldn't want nothing to do with him! That's absurd. I love Blue, even if he was purple. Color means nothing to me. I love him for his personality and loving nature. I couldn't care less about his looks. (I mean, seriously, he has a 10 inch floppy tongue! )


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

MyRescueCrew said:


> I, too, think that is ridiculous. The person that you quoted in Answer 2, does not need to even own a dog, in my opinion. I mean, honestly, how much of a dog lover can you be if you said that you will not ever own the breed again if you can't slice their ears. That's beyond ridiculous.
> 
> Dogs are dogs, people who love them get them for the love and companionship they give, not just based solely on their looks. *It's like saying, I only love Blue because he's chocolate in color. Any other color, and I wouldn't want nothing to do with him!* That's absurd. I love Blue, even if he was purple. Color means nothing to me. I love him for his personality and loving nature. I couldn't care less about his looks. (I mean, seriously, he has a 10 inch floppy tongue! )


Oh I love Blue... he's my fav of your crew! But color is a whole other story... there are people that will turn away to a Brindle dane, or Merle or Fawn or so on just because they dont like the way they look. Yea color is another superficial thing. Very common in labs... people go to the shelter looking for a lab... and there are plenty of Black labs... but they are like... no I wanted a Chocolate one... So BYBer here we come!
nessa


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

This subject gives me the creepin heebie jeebies.

As a groomer, I come across many many shallow, superficial people. Example - dog is matted head to toe, will take hours to painfully dematt - but owner begs me to rip out those dreadlocks because the dog looks "funny" when his hair is short. 

Cropping/docking falls in the same category, IMO, except so much worse. I'd like to see those breeders get their ear's hacked off and see how they like it. (Ok, not really, but I think you can see how I feel about this.)


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

I totally agree, Nessa.

I think you should get rid of your dane, I don't like his color. Trade him for a black! 

I'm so kidding, LOL. Merle's and Harlequin's are actually my FAVORITE color in a dane.


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

GroovyGroomer777 said:


> As a groomer, I come across many many shallow, superficial people. Example - dog is matted head to toe, will take hours to painfully dematt - but owner begs me to rip out those dreadlocks because the dog looks "funny" when his hair is short.


Ugg. And I suppose he looked fine during the months it took for his fur to matt up like that!


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

Bearjing said:


> Ugg. And I suppose he looked fine during the months it took for his fur to matt up like that!


This is exactly why my blood starts to boil when they say this....they think the dog looks so cute because he is "fluffy" When all I see is a painful, matted mess with who knows what kind of dirt, bugs, and filth hiding between all that "fluff" and the dog's skin. 

And if you love the coat so much, wouldn't you find joy by brushing and combing it? I don't get it.... I know it's not the same as cropping, but it follows the topic of being shallow.

To all those with long coated dogs - Please brush your pet!!


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

I'm a middle ground kind of person. I know there are people out there avidly against the practice and I know there are people that don't see a problem with it - at this time I feel it should be owner's choice. I don't look at someone with a cropped dog and think they are any worse then someone with a floppy eared dog, I just look at it as a difference of choice.

Sort of like positive vs. negative training. Not quite the same thing...but the comparison is roughly similar. I'm not particularly a fan of negative training - but I don't _really_ think less of those that employ it. Obviously if you are being abusive that's a whole other issue, but I'm talking more in the field of leash pops and such.

But like many here, a dog is a dog in my eyes. I'm not going to shun any animal for something like aesthetic reasons.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Groomer, I fully agree.

On a similar subject, I took Jake (my elderly Shih Tzu) to the groomer a few months back. He'd gone once or twice before. I told her that I did not want a Shih Tzu cut for Jake. He suffers from allergies and he's just plain old, so I like to keep him short to keep him from having to endure stressful grooming sessions as often. 

So I asked her the first time I brought him in, to shave him down completely with a #7 blade, and to leave his tail fluffy. She did it. The next time I brought him in, I requested the same thing. She did it, and when I went to pick him up, she got an attitude. She was so obnoxious because, as a groomer, it bothered the hell out of her to shave down a Shih Tzu as opposed to doing a standard Shih Tzu cut.

I later talked to my vet and some of the employee's at the vet (where I used to work), as they all use her. They said that she is very obsessed with breed cuts and it drives her INSANE to shave down a long haired dog, and that she's even turned away clients that have requested them on their dogs!

Well, they had the insane part right.

I never brought Jake back to the groomer. He's old, and I made the decision to just clip and groom him at home. He's more comfortable with it, so all is well. 

But it was just the idea of her line of thinking.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

MyRescueCrew said:


> I totally agree, Nessa.
> 
> *I think you should get rid of your dane, I don't like his color. Trade him for a black!*
> 
> I'm so kidding, LOL. Merle's and Harlequin's are actually my FAVORITE color in a dane.


LOL! Well that would be a waste of time because I already have a black one too hahahahahaha!!!! My next dane will be a Blue male 
Nessa


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

GroovyGroomer777 said:


> This subject gives me the creepin heebie jeebies.
> 
> As a groomer, I come across many many shallow, superficial people. Example - dog is matted head to toe, will take hours to painfully dematt - but owner begs me to rip out those dreadlocks because the dog looks "funny" when his hair is short.
> 
> Cropping/docking falls in the same category, IMO, except so much worse. I'd like to see those breeders get their ear's hacked off and see how they like it. (Ok, not really, but I think you can see how I feel about this.)


While I agree there are shallow and superficial people out there. I don't think that every person that loves the look of a cropped or docked dog should be thrown into that category. I have three Dobermans and all of them have been cropped and docked. 

I am in love with this breed, and am now in the process of starting my own breeding program. As such I will most likely never own a dog besides a rescue that has not been cropped and docked. While I will always own dobermans no matter if cropping and docking is banned, I can understand people coming from both sides. 

Because to me, a doberman with floppy ears and a long tail looks like a badly bred hound. Not like the intelligent and aristocratic working dog that I have fallen in love with. Call me shallow and superficial all you want, but I take excellent care of my dogs. They are well trained and socialized. I refuse to be called a bad dog owner just because I am keeping to the standard my breed has had for over 100 years.


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

What a snot! I'm a PET groomer...I don't give a crap about breed standard unless the owner does... I have absolutely no problem shaving a shih... as long as you aren't asking me to HURT your dog, then it's your dog and I don't care how you want him to look! Especially since yours had health reasons to top it off.... sorry you got turned off by groomers - we are not all that way!! If you are ever in FL I will happily shave all your pups!!


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## Bearjing (Oct 24, 2008)

MyRescueCrew said:


> She was so obnoxious because, as a groomer, it bothered the hell out of her to shave down a Shih Tzu as opposed to doing a standard Shih Tzu cut.


Boy, people get hung up on some weird things. She would hate me: I regularly shaved my solid black Chow X down because the long hot summers here were too much for here. She looked ridiculous! But she got to go outside and play all summer long. 

The way I figure it, she never expressed a desire to be a dog model - but she *did *express the desire to play in the summers - as much as possible.


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

DobManiac said:


> Because to me, a doberman with floppy ears and a long tail looks like a badly bred hound. Not like the intelligent and aristocratic working dog that I have fallen in love with. Call me shallow and superficial all you want, but I take excellent care of my dogs. They are well trained and socialized. I refuse to be called a bad dog owner just because I am keeping to the standard my breed has had for over 100 years.


No one called you a bad dog owner, but superficial.... perhaps.... I would guess yes. Your dog can be intelligent and aristocratic with floppy ears, cropped ears, blue or purple or striped polka dot ears..... it just doesn't make any sense to me... the ears do not make the dog...


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> While I agree there are shallow and superficial people out there. *I don't think that every person that loves the look of a cropped or docked dog should be thrown into that category.* I have three Dobermans and all of them have been cropped and docked.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Groomer, no problem here, if I'm ever in FL, you can definitely groom my Jakie Noodle! 

One of my very good friends is a groomer, I think groomers are great. But then there are weirdos like her that do not need to be grooming, because they take it entirely too far.

As far as what I was saying earlier, I guess I'll never be in a position to worry about tail docking a dog. It's done at a few days old, and I'm anti-breeding, so I'll never have a puppy that young to dock its tail. Not that I ever would, as mentioned.

However, one day in the very, very far future (and I mean REALLY far, whenever I have a large house) I want a Great Dane. I have three friends that all own them, and I love them. I will rescue, most definitely, but whether I get an adult or puppy is too far off to even think about. But if I do end up with a puppy, I will not be clipping its ears. Out of my three friends, only one has her dane's ears cropped. It was her personal choice and I, of course, kept my mouth closed. The other two, including my friend that has three danes, all has theirs with the natural look. I love those big 'ol floppy ears. 

There's a lady that used to come into my dog that had a boxer with a natural tail an natural ears. She bought him from a reputable breeder, and requested before his birth that he not be docked. She put down the payment for him, and the breeder didn't dock him. He's solid white and gorgeous.

We had a client with a boston terrier like that too -- no tail dock. Talk about a cutie pie!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm fine with it depending on the dog, breed and reason. 

I'll probably not do it again though. I don't think my dogs need to be cropped. Didn't seem that painful for my dogs but I'm sure certain breeds/dogs are more sensitive depending on that dog, the type of crop and the vet. Some vets cut wrong can lead to painful recovery or lifetime of pain/sensitivity. I think it is important not to go with the cheapest bet (if they aren't the best) or you and your pup will pay for it later. 

I've never had a dog who seemed to be in pain, in 10 days the stitches are out and 2 weeks they are healed. I've never shoved post in my dogs ears either. Nor have they needed a bunch of bandages, wrapped and unwrapped. It isn't that complicated. It is a clean cut, stitches then they are out and about playing and running around. I've have seen that if they get itchy (only a couple have) they will whimper if they scratch which is prevented by a small e.collar. Danes it is more complicated so again it depends on the breed/crop. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> Ear cropping was meant to hide the imperfections of a dog's ears. At least this is how I think of it. I would tell the poeple that asked, if you wanted a dog with cropped ears you would have bought it that way...since it's never recommended to crop a dog's ears after it leaves the breeder. I would also tell them that your breeder is doing more to perfect the breed by keeping her ears intact...this may be very likely if your breeder is ethical. Take my schnauzer for example...any breeder can hack the ears off a dog, but a responsible breeder would have bred for ears that flop over well. Did you know that if Elsa were a show dog...and what a big IF that would be...I could only show her in the U.S. Only in U.S. arenas are cropped ears allowed on a schnauzer. Given a choice, Elsa's ears would be uncropped. Even with uncropped bat ears, I'd still find them adorable.


Ear cropping was meant for a number of reasons. Some people who show might have started do it/still do it to hide imperfections. Others are working dogs where they don't exactly care what the ears look like but they felt/do feel it prevents them from being a handles torn. Sarplaninacs are one of the breeds who's ears are typically left natural and I've seen several in pics and videos from very old to recent with torn ears, I don't know if it is common though if so I think it is more complicated and worse on the dog to have an injury later in life then to go ahead and crop when they are young like Kangals, Caucasian Ovtcharka and Central Asian Ovtcharka are done as pups. I think if it will benefit the dog then it is ok. 

Some people who have pets do it because they simply like the look for one reason or another. Others who show might not want to hide imperfections but want the better chance of finishing their dogs in a competitive ring. Last time I checked the AKC standard for the AmStaff stated natural is preferred yet it is hard to place with a natural ear AmStaff. So ridiculous. Some won't put up a good dog because they have natural ears.  I've heard the same of Boxer rings. I feel that judges should not be biased either way. They should simply judge the dog to the standard. 

I've actually never heard it recommended that you have them cropped while they are with the breeder. If the owner is capable of taking care of the dog during the healing (which they should be I'd hope) then I don't see a problem with it. Maybe it is different for Danes though as I'm not at all familiar with them, but it isn't this way for all dogs. Some vets won't do ears until 8-10wks and other not after 12-16wks. One vet I talked to only had a 3wk window of 9-12wks. They felt any younger would be a bigger risk from going under and older it would be painful because of the ear development. Most pups leave the breeder at 9-10wks that I've got. A couple were done while with the breeder, the ones I had wanted done I brought them home. It was my decision and responsibility to have them done and I've never had a breeder or vet suggest me otherwise. I've had breeders give their feedback on a specific dog though what they'd think leaving natural or cropping. 

I've also known dogs with good correct ear sets that were cropped, simply because the breeder likes them that way or because it raises their chances of placing. Cropping doesn't mean they did have a bad ear set according to the standard I can't speak on whether or not that is ethical, doing it just because they like or to win but breeders/owners can have dogs with good ears and still choose to crop. Although I agree people could just breed for better ears and if no one cropped the judges would be forced to place according to the standard in that respect. 



britishbandit said:


> I have mixed feelings on this....in a way. While I don't really agree with the cutting, folding and stitching of the ears, I have no problems with taping them just to shape. There are some breeds I think look awesome with the erect ears, the Great Dane and Doberman. But they look great floppy too. While other cropping jobs I think look aweful, the Neapolitan Mastiff, APBT....(and the Pitties ears were originally cropped to avoid damage from fights, which isn't acceptable these days anyway).


Crop on the APBT isn't to avoid damage in fights, the majority of fighting dogs had natural ears. There are a lot of punk and gangsters fighting dogs today which do hack their dogs ears off (sometimes almost no ear left) which I think maybe some fall into the myth of "preventing injury" but many I think just want a mean looking dog. For those same types who don't fight them but have them to look tough or guard drug houses sometimes do the same. For a fighting dog to have a significant injury to an ear such as a bad tear or torn off would be too rare to crop as a preventative. Some of the fighting dogs and non fighting breeding dogs that were cropped seems to be many dogs owned by the same breeders/owners. So it appears to be just as it is today personal preference. One reason behind others who were in the even earlier days seem to be keeping with a traditional look of the terriers being cropped, when they started breeding the bull and terriers for fighting they continued to crop. After some time went by many people stopped cropping because they didn't care how the dogs ears looked and the risk of injury in a fight wasn't great. 

The APBT has no points on ears but does have a preffered set. The APBT ears can be cropped, meet the preffered to a "T" or look ugly as sin natural and not have bearing on the dogs conformation as it is based on what the ideal fighting dog should be build like. Having ears cropped doesn't give them an advantage and I think most of the dog fighters would be more in favor of having a dog with natural ears if their dog went into "ear sucker" as ears are hardly considered vital. If they had the ears cropped then the other dog would be biting their dogs head, face, maybe even getting close to the eyes, ect instead of riding the ears. Damage on the ear is insignificant compared to damage on the head and face. Ears heal very quickly. This is why some judges prefer natural ears, because crop is of no benefit to the dog and they don't care about cosmetics for a working/sporting dog only sound structure and conformation. Most of the old school judges will tell you it was unnecessary then and is now. Some are too biased because they won't pick a dog with cropped ears, this is as bad as not picking because a dog is natural if they are better in conformation. They should pick the best dog and not let personal biased like ears, coat color, bloodline or who the owner is. 



tirluc said:


> if you look at it in this manner than EVERY dog should have it's tail docked.....the Rotts, Dobes, Boxers, etc that i have seen over the yrs that did not have their tails cut had no more of a problem w/ them than my GSD (who had little knots and sometimes sores on his tail almost constantly when i lived in my trailer [close quarters] but went away when i moved into my house [more space]).......so maybe all dogs should have their tails cut off so that we, as people, don't have to deal w/ injuries to them.....but then what do we do about broken legs, body sores, eye problems......
> 
> one thing that always struck me funny is the AKC states that the dog should be shown in it "natural beauty".....so where does the tail docking and ear cropping come into play w/ natural beauty?.....JMO


I would have to agree. They do not agree with cropping but docking is ok? I know some working dog people say docking is necessary for prevention of possible injury (which is fine by me) but then the same could be said about ears on working dogs. 

We could also apply this same theory to all dogs pets included as I know someone who had to have their goofy, clumsy pet dogs ears cropped because of injury. The dog was entangled in a thorny type bush that it ran into and got tangled in which sliced the ears. So the vet just cropped them. 

My docked APBT is so because of being bitten by a venomous snake. I also know a number of APBTs who have had happy and it can be a pain. Some have had to be amputated but I don't think we should start docking their tails. It is just hard to stop them from swinging it, their tails are thin like whips. I've had blood on my pants because they smack me with their tails or bust them open on my walls, door ways, chairs and I don't have a small home. 

I don't have a problem if someone owns a dog with a docked tail at all. I just don't think we can apply its needed because of injury to tail if this same theory applied to ears is going to be penalized. Some dogs are cropped/docked to prevent injury when working.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Sorry, I am all about the cropped tail types. I even had a Rottie with a tail that had to be docked when he was almost a year old. Long story on that one, it was against my will. I didn't think it was humane to do an adult dog even though he had a long history of injuries to his tail. My vet finally talked me into it. He never seemed to notice his "missing tail" even right after the surgery. I have had Rotties for now close to 30 years. I have owned many of them, fostered many and worked with rescue of many many more. I have NOT seen any unusual amounts of "tail sensitivity" in any of the docked tail dogs. 99% of the ones I worked with were docked. Yes, I have seen the surgery done to dock tails an NO I have not heard all the screams that someone referred to. I am NOT all for cropping ears but I am for freedom to chose. I think if one choses to have their puppies ears cropped they had better do a lot of research and know a vet with a great deal of experience. NOT all vets are qualified to do this surgery. The person also needs to be prepared for a lot of post surgery care and the knowledge of how to do that. Most importantly, the person needs to give the dog a loving home for the rest of the dogs life. With all my years working in rescue I have seen dogs in so many horrible situations. I don't know if I have become hard or what. I just think it is so much more important to give dogs a good home for the entire life of the dog. Whether or not they are cropped, docked or natural.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

A reminder, yet again, to please not quote spam or respond to it at all, except to report it.

Basically responding and quoting means that the moderator has a couple of extra clean-up steps, leaving a little less time to actually participate in and enjoy the forum.


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## Layladog (Sep 25, 2008)

This may be a silly question, but....

Why have breeders not just bred cropped dogs for naturally upright ears? I realize this would not be easy, but given the unusual things we have accomplished with selective breeding I have a hard time believing that it is not possible. Isn't the "need" to crop ultimately a result of lazy breeding?

Obviously this would not apply to tail docking - there's really no way around that one.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If you watch some Dobermans/Boxers/Pits with natural ears you'll notice that many of them have "Wonky" or "fly away" ears. These are ears that are trying to stand but cannot because of excess ear leather.

In this day and age the reason these dogs need to be posted is because of the *length* of the crop. Only "half" the ear has been bred to have cartilage that tries to stand up if that makes any sense.

And even if they did breed for upright ears, I cannot imagine a Doberman having ears that stood like a Boston or Manchester Terrier x.x How awkward!


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## trentap (Apr 10, 2009)

i think its wrong to get dogs ears cropped. i would never crop my mini schnauzers ears, its not natural and is painfull. plus your dog has no option in the matter, what if some one cut your ears to make them look the way they want them to.


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## Layladog (Sep 25, 2008)

> In this day and age the reason these dogs need to be posted is because of the length of the crop. Only "half" the ear has been bred to have cartilage that tries to stand up if that makes any sense.


That kind of begs the question. They can't be bred that way because they are not bred that way?



> And even if they did breed for upright ears, I cannot imagine a Doberman having ears that stood like a Boston or Manchester Terrier


I disagree. It is true that it would not look the same as a cropped ear, but I do not think it would look wrong. In any event, it would certainly be preferable to slicing while still giving a similar look.

So I still wonder why you don't see breeders attempting to do this. It would also save medical costs over the long term.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I do not think it would look wrong. In any event, it would certainly be preferable to slicing while still giving a similar look.


And I just happen to disagree  It would be preferable to some people, not others. It is the specific crop for a breed that helps set it's breed type. People want to maintain breed type.

I've seen some REALLY nice natural eared Dobermans, but I will admit I feel they are lacking in breed type due to having natural ears. I just happen to like cropped Dobermans, Boxers, etc


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## Layladog (Sep 25, 2008)

> I just happen to like cropped Dobermans, Boxers, etc


I do as well. In fact, my next dog will almost certainly be a Dobe, and I have given a lot of thought to this issue. I just wish the ears were natural in order to avoid the dilemma! I am not sure if I would crop or not - the dog would do obedience work but not conformation showing.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to just change the breed standard instead of trying to select for yet another irrelevent phenotype and probably causing even more genetic problems in the process?


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## Layladog (Sep 25, 2008)

A decent point, but we breed for a lot of irrelevant things - short faces on pugs, outrageous coat types, etc. Why not ears, if that's they breed "type"? Seems preferable to cropping. You could argue that by selecting for any breed trait you are creating a risk of genetic problems. In that case, why not ditch pure breeds and let nature select?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You do not change the standard to fit the dog, you breed the dog to the standard.

I saw my first German Longhaired Pointer almost a month back now...never in my life did I think I'd get to see one.

Myself, the dog's owner, and the few breeders in this country hope they don't get AKC accepted.

Why? Because we can ALL see them going the way of the Setters with ridiculously copious amounts of drippy useless coat. Gorgeous? Of course. Functional? No.

How long do you think it will take before the Irish Red & Whites end up with that hair? Heck, I've seen some pretty darn overangulated setters too! Mostly in the Irish and Gordon...the English has remained pretty moderate.


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## Layladog (Sep 25, 2008)

> You do not change the standard to fit the dog, you breed the dog to the standard.


Heaven forbid we should do something other than the way it has always been done!



> Gorgeous? Of course. Functional? No.


I could spend the rest of the evening listing aesthetic traits of various dog breeds that are completely non-functional.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

True...but it depends on which traits you list. Part of what makes a Setter a Setter is not the LENGTH of his coat, but his character...the aesthetic pleasure we get from abundant coat has been a side effect, but does not a Setter make.

Same thing goes for a GSD that lacks nerve and drive...he is not a GSD.



> Heaven forbid we should do something other than the way it has always been done!


Has nothing to do with that. Without a standard, there is no breed. If you change the standard to allow one thing that was previously a fault, what's next? As you change the standard, you change the breed....and then, is it really that breed anymore?

Look at the American and English Cocker Spaniel...the German Longhaired Pointer and the Large Munsterlander...


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

The problem is, when you start breeding for one trait, (1) you wind up getting another six you didn't realize were linked to the first, and (2) that first trait winds up creating health problems you had never forseen. After a while, those short-faced Pugs have difficulty breathing through their malformed nasal cavities, those Shih-Tzu's eyes fall out of their skulls because their eye sockets are too shallow, and those Dachsunds can't move their rear legs because of the leverage exerted on their extra-long spines. 

Maybe it's time breed standards were based on something other than physical appearance? Border Collies fared pretty well as a distinct breed long before they had any conformation standards; in fact, some would argue they did better. It's hard to start a puppy mill when a dog is valued on its health and behavior, rather than its physical appearance.

[ADDENDUM]


> Same thing goes for a GSD that lacks nerve and drive...he is not a GSD.


That's kind of what I'm getting at - he is according to conformation standards, even if he couldn't guard or herd a flock if his life depended on it. In the case of ear/tail docking, we're not talking about a defect - we're talking about allowing the dogs to retain their actual, physical form instead of cosmetic alterations. I honestly don't see how a surgical procedure can be considered a breed standard; it seems to me the breed is what is actually born, rather than what happens at the end of a surgeon's knife.


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## Layladog (Sep 25, 2008)

> If you change the standard to allow one thing that was previously a fault, what's next?


Breed standards are changed all of the time. Furthermore, I did not say we should make faults standard - it's not a fault for Dobes to have upright ears.

At any rate, as a practical matter we're chasing shadows here - it will never happen.



> Same thing goes for a GSD that lacks nerve and drive...he is not a GSD.


Slippery slope - what if his tail is a little too short? Is he thereby not a GSD? I would argue that he's a GSD, but not a show-quality GSD. There are (unfortunately) plenty of dogs that lose their nerve and drive because of abuse. Does that change what breed they are?



> After a while, those short-faced Pugs have difficulty breathing through their malformed nasal cavities, those Shih-Tzu's eyes fall out of their skulls because their eye sockets are too shallow, and those Dachsunds can't move their rear legs because of the leverage exerted on their extra-long spines.


These are all related to deformities that we breed for. Having upright ears - to the extent that it is a real deformity in the order of the ones you mention - causes few problems other than an increase in the risk of things getting in there and causing infection; a risk that would still exist with cropping.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> There are (unfortunately) plenty of dogs that lose their nerve and drive because of abuse. Does that change what breed they are?


Many would argue (especially the working people) that the nerve wasn't there in the first place.

And if the tail is too short as per the standard, the GSD is still a GSD. But what I'm talking about is things being acceptable that were not before, and things being changed, and changed, and changed until the breed is no longer recognizable.

A GSD's tail is to reach AT LEAST the midpoint of the hock joint...many are longer than that. However, if the tail just BARELY reaches to the midpoint of the hock joint, you want to remain in standard with the next generation, so you breed to a dog with a longer tail to help maintain that part of the standard.

Now, this is going to fall relatively LOW on the radar of most breeders, especially when the issue isn't really that the tail is too short, but the set is too high...you breed to correct what was lost in the last breeding, etc.


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## Layladog (Sep 25, 2008)

> But what I'm talking about is things being acceptable that were not before, and things being changed, and changed, and changed until the breed is no longer recognizable.


Fair, but upright ears are not unacceptable on a Dobe, nor would a Dobe with upright ears be unrecognizable. Just sayin'.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Layladog said:


> These are all related to deformities that we breed for. Having upright ears - to the extent that it is a real deformity in the order of the ones you mention - causes few problems other than an increase in the risk of things getting in there and causing infection; a risk that would still exist with cropping.


It causes few problems _that we currently know of_. The problems I listed aren't new, but they seem to be more common, and worse than before. Who's to say that breeding for upright ears won't, after a few generations, cause the bones of the eardrum become more delicate and easily broken? Or if the ear canals become smaller and easily clogged? Or any myriad of unknown problems of far greater severity than floppy ears?

I think for me, the question comes down to (1) why does the breed standard exist as it does in the first place, and (2) what constitutes a good enough reason to change it? The health and well-being of the animal seems to outweigh any aesthetic values.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The breed standard overall exists to set type and a definitive look within the breed. Separation between coninents/countries causes variation, but if there is set type for THAT country and general shapes are maintained, you can still recognize it as "X breed"

A German Doberman, English Doberman, and American Doberman all look different... but you still recognize it as a Doberman. I've noticed that MANY people don't know a Dobe is a Dobe if the ears are natural...and people think that tailed Rotties are some sort of cross.

For the "lay" person you've taken away (or in this case, added) a part of the dog that made the breed familiar to them...what "made that breed that breed".


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

The doberman standard does not place an absolute requirement for cropped ears. Honestly it shouldn't. The whole point of conformation shows is to evaluate breeding stock, and cropping has no effect on the dogs genes.



> Ears normally cropped and carried erect.


That is directly from the breed standard. But you also have to realize that a floppy eared dog completely changes the entire look of the doberman profile. And dobermans are a "profile breed." There are judged heavily on lines and angles. I have seen floppy eared dobermans show. And it greatly shortens their neck. And puts an entirely different look to the head you are used to seeing.

This was just to clarify a fact that was missed. Am in agreement with everything has Zeph has already stated perfectly.


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