# 'doodled out' literally to death..



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I am soooooooo sick of this. Again- our HS comes out with the monthly list- again- same thing- most are doodle type mixes. Uh coat didnt come out like we thought-- sheds too much, too curly have to clip it all the time, too much energy, health problems ( up the wazzzzooooo..) or flat out- too much bounce for the family and its a mutt.. ( well duh- what did you think you were getting..).. Since not a breed, no rescues to call, others problems like matted or a mess or whatever.. 
I wish this stuff would stop.. Everytime I see a ad in the paper I get past " cringe" but totally outraged.. Take two breeds with high incident of genetic problems and -duh what did you think would happen???? But here is the real joke=- someone wanting one to adopt will pay 55 dollars- verses the outrageious prices I see in the paper or the internet.. 
Here is my pose here- if you are adopting a mutt- ie two breeds together- why dont people just spend the time to check out the shelters.. ?????


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

borzoimom said:


> I am soooooooo sick of this. Again- our HS comes out with the monthly list- again- same thing- most are doodle type mixes. Uh coat didnt come out like we thought-- sheds too much, too curly have to clip it all the time, too much energy, health problems ( up the wazzzzooooo..) or flat out- too much bounce for the family and its a mutt.. ( well duh- what did you think you were getting..).. Since not a breed, no rescues to call, others problems like matted or a mess or whatever..


Someone should start making doodle rescues. There'll be plenty of poor dogs who'll need rescuing as the fad goes on.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

I'm in Virginia also and have been looking for a Goldendoodle to adopt for almost a year. Which HS are you referring to? I'll give them a call.


----------



## K8IE (Apr 28, 2008)

I am so totally disgusted by the whole -doodle-uggle-poo whatever mix the latest craze is I could just scream. My neighbor has been avoiding me because I told her how I really felt about the deliberate creation of mutts when she was talking about getting a whatever-a-doodle the other day from a "breeder". I actually refuse to even refer to the "designer dogs" as anything other than what they are: a mixed breed dog deliberately created by greedy, ignorant idiots.  These poor doodle-dogs are all over the place in need of homes and they are the ones that pay the price.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

well doodled to death is right. In a few years alot end up in shelters. Combination of the " coat" not doing what they thought, etc.. Unfortunately no rescues and the reason is the health involved with those that are bred. Most of the time- they are just shipped somewhere and most do not do any genetic testings on the parents. After all OFA doesnt do a ofa listing on a dog unless pure bred.. I am sure there are exceptions to the rules of good breeders, but man- soooooooo rare its not even funny.. 
I am sorry- but a dog deserves a good quality life- free from HD etc to the best that can be done. But the biggest problem is that people got this type to be free of allegens- and comes out- they are not.. Why didnt they just get a poodle? Why mix it with breeds that are noted for high skin dander? What was the reasoning in that? 
If I hear one more time " oh i paid 2 grand for my what-ever-doodle" as a status mark - I am going to blow a gasket.. Or better yet my reply should be " really- well we had so many here and you could have adopted for 55 dollars.."..



MollyDoggie said:


> I'm in Virginia also and have been looking for a Goldendoodle to adopt for almost a year. Which HS are you referring to? I'll give them a call.


 OMG REALLY??? Sending you a pm with phone numbers and addresses.. Please take a look!~


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i don't know, guys....i think maybe i'll start breeding Borderdoodles.....i mean, don't you think that they'd be the ULTIMATE dog?....don't know what for, for sure, but give me time.....i'll think of _something_...........i actually had someone ask me about doing that a couple yrs ago....

but i know what you mean, borzoimom, it has really gotten out of hand w/ the designer thing.....


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

the fact is the numbers are staggering in shelters- that means " doodled to death" - literally...


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I really don't see the point of this thread. The shelter problem isn't *just* a doodle problem. It is as much a purebred problem as it is anything else.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I really don't see the point of this thread. The shelter problem isn't *just* a doodle problem. It is as much a purebred problem as it is anything else.


I agree. 

And personally I think we should have at least 6 months in between every doodle thread. Preferable a year.


----------



## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

I was just thinking the other day that if this craze had been going on back when the stray we picked up had her litter of puppies we could have gotten rich! I mean, how doesn't want to own a Gerban Rottle Dog? They are _such_ a rare breed, the perfect size, great with kids, low shedding, perfect activity level for an average family, smart, trainable, long lived, healthy....we could have charged $1,000 a pup and come off it $10,000 richer! (Heavy sarcasm, by the way.)

Hey, for that matter, why did I ever get Chloe spayed? I could have bred her to a Poodle and have lovely Australian Colliedoodles and charged 2 grand for those! I can see it now: Low shedding Lassie dogs! The Collie without the mess! Great with kids, super intelligent, and you'll never need another security system, while still being good with people! 

I wonder if this craze will ever go away and when it does what next dog will be the helpless victim of it...


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Rarely do we see purbreds at our shelter. I must say that the breeders inour area are pretty good about keeping track of the dogs they sell. And we are a small enough place that if something purebred shows up at the shelter someone is sure to recognize who might have bred the dog and sold it originally...so we give the breeders a call and usually they come down and rescue the dog. 

On the other hand, if someone told me that pitbulls and mixes were never going to be bred again, except for the professional purpose of bettering the breed it won't be too soon. We have over 250 pits and crosses in a small city shelter. The other 40-50 dogs in the shelter are your average mixes.

Which brings me to the "doodles and poos." People surrender them on a regular basis around here, we see a few each week. However, because they are in fashion at the moment there is always someone who wants to adopt them next. The sad part is that many of these crossbreeds that we see end up being re-homed half a dozen times in our system. They keep coming back to us in a few weeks after being adopted because people have unrealistic expectations of what they are getting. So we don't see large numbers of them (like the pit and x's) but we see the same dogs over and over and over.


----------



## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

> It is as much a purebred problem as it is anything else.


 I think a big difference between the two is that the purebreds that end up in shelters have rescues that can take them in. Mutts (the doodles included) don't. If a shelter is being swamped by purebreds, they can usually find a breed rescue that will help them out. If they are being swamped by mutts they have to use their limited resources for those dogs.


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

You know, blackrose, that is a VERY good point. And one I hadn't thought of before, quite surprisingly since I have volunteered and we contact breed rescues all the time. 

I always think of the dogs that don't get adopted when I think of who is in the shelters. I think of those that don't make it out.  And those are usually the pits (just too many) and large cross breeds (shepherd crosses and lab crosses).


----------



## fuzzie (Jul 6, 2007)

We had a weird influx of hounds lately, a litter of hound mixes a couple weeks ago, a litter of **** hounds and two beagle mixes now. It's odd.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

tirluc said:


> i don't know, guys....i think maybe i'll start breeding Borderdoodles.....i mean, don't you think that they'd be the ULTIMATE dog?....don't know what for, for sure, but give me time.....i'll think of _something_...........i actually had someone ask me about doing that a couple yrs ago....


You're too late, they already exist. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> I really don't see the point of this thread. The shelter problem isn't *just* a doodle problem. It is as much a purebred problem as it is anything else.


I think the shelter problem is a type of dog problem more than anything else. In any area there wil be really high instances of certain types of dogs that come and just stay... the hardest for us to adopt out are the really plain medium to large dogs. (The huge dogs get adopted fast and the tiny ones do too)

Small poo mixes are really common in our shelter, but not nearly (even remotely) as common as hound x's, labs, pit bulls, or herding dogs.... We also get a lot of dachshunds.  We have also gotten a couple labradoodle type dogs (i can't tell most doodle mixes apart honestly)


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I really don't see the point of this thread. The shelter problem isn't *just* a doodle problem. It is as much a purebred problem as it is anything else.


 The point of this thread is that everytime there is a new designer breed that crops up, a few years later the shelters have to deal with it.. Left holding the bag for what was a fad that lasted only a matter of years- that is the point..


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

blackrose said:


> I think a big difference between the two is that the purebreds that end up in shelters have rescues that can take them in. Mutts (the doodles included) don't. If a shelter is being swamped by purebreds, they can usually find a breed rescue that will help them out. If they are being swamped by mutts they have to use their limited resources for those dogs.


I don't see a difference at all, yet purebred poodles end up in our shelter despite what's pulled out by rescues. It's not like they have cages and cages waiting for an occupant at the purebred rescue. 

I don't know about the purebred rescues in your area, but my poodle rescue will take in any dog that hints at poodle, not just the purebreds. But that's not really the point. 

It's a fallacy to believe a mutt in the shelter was an intentional breeding for a designer dog or not a product of two purebreds. It's not *just* doodle breeders who aren't standing behind what they produce.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I really don't see the point of this thread. The shelter problem isn't *just* a doodle problem. It is as much a purebred problem as it is anything else.


I don't really see how it's a purebred problem. Yes, there are purebreds in rescues, just like mixes. But not in the numbers - at least, not here in Dallas, unless you assume every pitty looking type or labbish looking type is a purebred pit or lab.


----------



## honeybear (Jul 8, 2007)

I don't usually post much, but I feel like I need to put in my two cents. I have an Australian labradoodle call her what you want lab mix poodle mix doesn't make a difference to me. I believe I did all the right things in purchasing her. I got her from a reputible breeder and did lots of research. My feeling is this the people that are buying these dogs and than turning them over to shelters because they are no longer convienent for them or the same people that would buy whatever pure bred dog is the fad of the moment and turn them over to a shelter when they no longer become convienent. I don't know sometimes I just get tired of hearing doodle this and doodle that. I feel that people often group all people that own labradoodles and breed labradoodles all into the same catagory.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

borzoimom said:


> The point of this thread is that everytime there is a new designer breed that crops up, a few years later the shelters have to deal with it.. Left holding the bag for what was a fad that lasted only a matter of years- that is the point..


And where did the purebreds that created the doodles come from if it wasn't from a purebred breeder?

Again, I don't see the point in calling it a doodle problem when it's a breeder problem. Or is it because you're a breeder that you don't care to acknowledge the real problem?



Dogstar said:


> I don't really see how it's a purebred problem. Yes, there are purebreds in rescues, just like mixes. But not in the numbers - at least, not here in Dallas, unless you assume every pitty looking type or labbish looking type is a purebred pit or lab.


It takes only two purebreds to make a mix. Where did these purebreds come from?


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

i think the original post here is probably full of dog poo.

first of all, there are goldendoodle and labradoodle rescues already.

second, i don't believe you got this huge batch of doodles in now...at least not goldendoodle or labradoodles.

there are doodles going into shelters, but i doubt in the numbers you are describing.

the real crisis in shelters is with pitbull type dogs.

let me see you have some guts, and make the same lament about how you are sick of pitbull breeders...and don't make any distinctions of good or bad breeders, just like you do for doodles.

this is so boring already.


----------



## fuzzie (Jul 6, 2007)

Immature language aside, that is a very good point...


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

honeybear said:


> I don't usually post much, but I feel like I need to put in my two cents. I have an Australian labradoodle call her what you want lab mix poodle mix doesn't make a difference to me. I believe I did all the right things in purchasing her. I got her from a reputible breeder and did lots of research. My feeling is this the people that are buying these dogs and than turning them over to shelters because they are no longer convienent for them or the same people that would buy whatever pure bred dog is the fad of the moment and turn them over to a shelter when they no longer become convienent. I don't know sometimes I just get tired of hearing doodle this and doodle that. I feel that people often group all people that own labradoodles and breed labradoodles all into the same catagory.


You make a very good point, well two actually. Not all doodle breeders are in the same boat, argue responsibility or not. Agree with the mix or don't but a lot of breeders do health screen and I assume these also take back dogs if need be. Some also breed for a reason such as guide dog work- I know plenty of doodle guide dogs myself, actually. These dogs are a far cry from the mill down the road who is throwing any poodle with any other breed, naming it, and then selling it.

The other great point is that it IS a fad right now. Designer dogs are really 'in' as well as pit bulls and toy dogs. Labs have just always been popular. When anything gets more popular it'll start being bred by really irreputable people and bought for all the wrong reasons. You'll start seeing a lot of them in shelters. Paps have doubled in popularity and as thus they aren't nearly as uncommon in shelters and pet stores, unfortunately. People try to cash in on a fad and its just... ugh.... When popularity goes up, quality goes down...


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i think the original post here is probably full of dog poo.
> 
> first of all, there are goldendoodle and labradoodle rescues already.
> 
> ...


Pit bulls are definitely part of the problem; I think we can all agree with that.

But pit bulls and doodles have one thing in common; they are both the latest trend.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

This is a reminder - I have a standing offer for anyone who is looking for a doodle-type mix- whether large or small.
We have NO shortage of doodle-type dogs in the Dallas metroplex shelters- mostly in the 12-25 pound range, both sexes, mostly older puppies (who have just transitioned over to a shedding coat) and some middle aged adults. If anyone is in an area that wants a doodle and can't find one locally in their shelters or rescue, please PM me your contact info. I'll send you my application, and we'll figure out a way to get one to you. 

Curb- the point I was making is that most of these dogs aren't even recognizable as a second or third generation mix. They're just the big generic mixes. Some of them have reasonably strong breed characteristics (the markings in husky mixes and the short legged dachshund/corgi/basset traits are heavily dominant, apparently) but are still not close enough that they're even likely to be second generation mixes unless the purebred parents were all SO far off their breed standard that .. yeah. 

I've been saying this forever- BYBs are the bigger problem than puppy mills. People who want to breed their pets, then don't enforce s/n contracts on the offspring or screen owners.


----------



## zannie (Mar 12, 2008)

i feel every breed at one time or another is in the shelters be it mixes or pure,i think the the biggest crime is lack of education of people getting a dog..most of the time its a whim or a movie craze dog,
people do reserch in getting a car and most home electronics why not a dog or horse what ever it might be.i think the whole thing is sad and i think people who breed need to regulated ,,just my thoughts


----------



## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

I think mixes are adorable and doodles are fine dogs. I don't have a problem with them. I do have a problem with the "doodle" mentality though. Maybe it's a product of being middle-class and resenting upper-class people for consuming in a way I cannot. But it's certainly related to a resentment of dogs as consumer items. I hate that dogs can be a fad. I hate the people who buy them because someone famous had one or they're too stupid to do their research and realize doodles are dogs too. They're not a purse, they are not robots, they poop, pee, shed, bark, and bite like any other dog. They are not a miracle. They are not disposable. And I really hate people who treat them as such, the breeders who advertise them as such. And dangit, I HATE the names. "Peekapoo" "Schnoodle" "Pomapoo" It makes me want to vomit. I hate cutesiness. I hate lies and delusion. I hate people who try to justify themselves for making stupid or, smart, decisions.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i think the original post here is probably full of dog poo.
> 
> 
> the real crisis in shelters is with pitbull type dogs.


I'd have to agree with the "dog poo" statement,personal issues between members shouldnt be settled in this way.

If we join DF it is because we love dogs regardless of thier breed or mix.

I'll be honest and say this is a pathetic "low blow IMO"

Also the real problem is Pitbulls in shelters but that doesnt mean they are a bad breed,its the "breeders",mainly irresponsible ones who have degraded this once proud breed.

Maybe time can be the healer?



fuzzie said:


> Immature language aside, that is a very good point...



Agreed Fuzzie



DobManiac said:


> Pit bulls are definitely part of the problem; I think we can all agree with that.
> 
> But pit bulls and doodles have one thing in common; they are both the latest trend.


LMFAO,Pitbulls are not the latest trend,go and do research!
If they are what century are you talking about?

I hear what your saying to an extent,they are like a fashion item,but only quite recently since being used as a "status symbol" pooch.
Its a shame but i cannot see the doodle and Pit scenario in the same bubble here.


----------



## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

In case you were wondering...that felt really good to get that out. I get so sad seeing all the dogs mistreated and homeless and dying because of PEOPLE.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Max'sHuman said:


> In case you were wondering...that felt really good to get that out. I get so sad seeing all the dogs mistreated and homeless and dying because of PEOPLE.


LMFAO,M.H,i only just see ur post.

Can relate to that too..LOL


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> LMFAO,Pitbulls are not the latest trend,go and do research!
> If they are what century are you talking about?
> 
> I hear what your saying to an extent,they are like a fashion item,but only quite recently since being used as a "status symbol" pooch.
> Its a shame but i cannot see the doodle and Pit scenario in the same bubble here.


I'm not saying that pit's just showed up yesterday. I realize they are breed that been around for a long time. But they have only recently became a "fashion item" as you stated. And now the breeding of pits as become a life of its own. As such pits are now a trend that has gotten out of control. I didn't think that was farfetched. 

By trend all I mean is their recent burst in popularity.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

DobManiac,sadly true.

The reason i posted here was although Dog-man annoys me too sometimes i wouldnt create a post directly at his breed of choice.
There is no need,its rather childish IMO.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Also the real problem is Pitbulls in shelters but that doesnt mean they are a bad breed,its the "breeders",mainly irresponsible ones who have degraded this once proud breed.


Pooch, the point of my post was not to complain about pitbulls.

i have conflicting attitudes about pitbulls and so don't talk about it much.

i understand why the people who love them love them, and i understand why there is a movement to get rid of the dangerous ones, even by unfair means to the good owners, if that is the only solution.

one purpose of my post was to question the sincerity of the original post, when there are far more numbers of pitties and dark labs who are going to their deaths.

i would like to see if she can post the same exasperation about pitties, since it is not politically correct to do so on dog forums.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Dog-man,i know.

No worries bro.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> DobManiac,sadly true.
> 
> The reason i posted here was although Dog-man annoys me too sometimes i wouldnt create a post directly at his breed of choice.
> There is no need,its rather childish IMO.


And I'm sorry if my first post came off the wrong way.

I have nothing against pits whatsoever.

I do however have a problem with irresponsible breeding, whether it is purebred dogs, unregistered pits, doodles, or oops liters. I don't find any of it expectable and they all have lead us to the current "shelter problem."


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

DoberManiac,not at all,i totally understood where you where you were coming from.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> And I'm sorry if my first post came off the wrong way.
> 
> I have nothing against pits whatsoever.
> 
> I do however have a problem with irresponsible breeding, whether it is purebred dogs, unregistered pits, doodles, or oops liters. I don't find any of it expectable and they all have lead us to the current "shelter problem."


To say that one thing is more of a cause than another is insane because it changes so frequently. One day theres 20 pits, one day theres doodles, one day there is a litter of mutts because someone couldn't afford to get their dog spayed, or their other dog neutered. Sadly, shelters should not exist. I think the point the OP was trying to make is that yes there are purebreds and yes there are pits, but the current "fad" if you will is doodles, and people are paying thousands of dollars for doodles, and then dumping them in shelters when they dont end up having the hypoallergenic coat, or the great personality. I dislike 2 things about doodles. 1. the fact that are intentionally being bred, most likely for the money and the popularity. and 2. the fact that they are being advertised as the *PERFECT*dog, and a lot of people, (not all-dont worry dog-man and ellas mom) dont take the time to put in the training that every dog needs, regardless of breed.

Just wanted to add- I have met doodles I have loved and doodles I have hated. I have met cute ones and I have met ugly ones. Same goes for puggles, and cocker-poos, and every other mixed breed out there. The same goes for the lab mixes in shelters, the pit mixes in shelters. What bothers me is that people are going out and spending 1,000 on these dogs, when the lab mixes and the pit mixes and the every other dog you can think of mixes, are dying in shelters, and the doodles, and poos, and uggles, are being put on some golden pedistal like they're something special.


----------



## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Borzoimom, I couldn't agree with you more!! Well said!!!


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> What bothers me is that people are going out and spending 1,000 on these dogs, when the lab mixes and the pit mixes and the every other dog you can think of mixes, are dying in shelters, and the doodles, and poos, and uggles, are being put on some golden pedistal like they're something special.


what you have to understand is that for some people, like myself, it was well worth $1100 to get the dog that fit our family and lifestyle best...even if others like yourself think that all mixes are somehow equal.

the problem is not with people getting the dog they want, if they truly end up with the right dog, after diligent research....even it is a crossbreed or what you call a mutt.

the problem is with people getting a dog, without understanding the responsibilities and problems that come with it.
these people make stupid choices at the pet store or elsewhere, and it is not a "breed" issue.
they would probably be returning the shelter dog too.
the difference is that they also unknowingly supported a bad breeder to create another dog.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

This past weekend I went to the Laurel Park Dog run in Los Angeles.

I met a very nice woman on the way into the park. She had a black dog, with a coat that appeared to be, mostly non shedding. The dog appeared in size, shape and temperament to be very similar to my 12 year old dog.
- I asked her "Labradoodle?", to which she answered, "YES."

We got to talking and she told me, she paid $1500 to a breeder in Colorado who shipped her the dog, which she found on the internet. 

I looked at the dog for a good while. It was a beautiful animal, sweet, friendly, well mannered and also had a very nice BLACK coat. - Though upon further inspection, I would say, the coat appeared to be about 70% poodle, 30% Lab. I could tell, up close, the coat looked to be non shedding from far, but not up close. It was not "HAIR" it was a blend of "HAIR" and "FUR". - She bought the dog because her daughter is allergic and wanted hypo-allergenic. The dog which was a puppy, weighing about 40lbs., looked like it was going to grow to around 65lbs-70lbs.

Her second terrier type dog was small, about 25lbs., 2yrs old, white, had a wiry coat, and looked like a mutt of no specific nature. I asked her, "what type of dog is the little, white one?" - To which she answered, "oh, she's also a Labradoodle."

That is when I paused. "You're telling me, that big, black, long haired, dog is the same "Breed" as that little, white, short haired, mutt?"

To which she answered, "yes, but the white one only cost $800."

These two dogs had about as much in common as a Tomato and a box of chocolates.

And this is what people call a breed? And spend money on? 

Even the black $1500 dog, if it was a Standard or PWD, would not be a show dog or stud dog, because it's coat type would be considered, IMPROPER.

But in the world of Labradoodle's, this was a top specimen (sold over the internet, without the owner meeting the breeders in their homes, etc.)

My point is not that these dogs were any better or worse than any pure breed dogs. They were both cute, friendly, likable animals. But to spend $2300 on two mutt's with nothing in common except their name is just silly.
I am all for Mutt's. But if you're spending pure breed dollars, you should be getting a dog with pure breed standards.

I still, for the life of me, can not understand for one second, why ANYONE would spend $1500 for a Labradoodle when they could spend near the same money and get a pure breed Portuguese Water Dog. 

But from people I have spoken to, the only reason is, lack of knowledge. People don't know about Porties so they spend good money on Mutt's instead.

P.S. - There is no such thing as a reputable Labradoodle breeder. You want to know how I know, because a good breeder has to do certain things to be considered a good breeder. Like show their dogs and get confirmations and health tests, etc.

But since there are no shows and no confirmations for Labradoodles, a good breeder is considered good, when they have a good offspring. AKA, an expensive MUTT. PS, I love mutt's. Especially when they are adopted, from a pound.

B


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

dog-man said:


> what you have to understand is that for some people, like myself, it was well worth $1100 to get the dog that fit our family and lifestyle best...even if others like yourself think that all mixes are somehow equal.
> 
> the problem is not with people getting the dog they want, if they truly end up with the right dog, after diligent research....even it is a crossbreed or what you call a mutt.
> 
> ...


But with $1,100 you probably could have got a dog that was health tested, had parents that were showed, and titled. I understand you wanting a doodle. Sure, thats your choice. But what you taught your kids is that if daddy wants to spend a grand on a dog while others die in shelters, daddy can. and i guess he can...


B-Line- excellent post


----------



## MarleysGirl (Apr 11, 2008)

Talk about being doodled to death. I happily own a doodle and am getting really tired of all the talk about them. Since there are a bunch of other threads that have already been started about this very topic, did we really need another one? I think everyone gets the point.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

In an attempt to liven things up, I saw an ad saying:

SHITESE PUPPIES FOR SALE!

Someone needs a better marketing exec, lmao.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

MarleysGirl,
From the look of your avatar, you seem to have a very beautiful Doodle. It is also clear that you are VERY happy with your dog. No one is trying to take that away from you.

But what you need to understand, and why these threads keep coming up, is because the dog community is trying to put a stop to the ongoing and increasing issue, that is being seen across the country.

If the community is not vocal here, then there is no where for people who feel strongly against the "invention" and "marketing" of a breed that does not exist, to express their continued frustration.

And yes, many of us maybe banging our heads against the wall, but last month, I had a poster from the board contact me, right before he was going to buy a Doodle. I'm happy to say, he has picked a real breed instead.

So believe it or not, even if it's in small doses, our voices are being heard and making a difference. Feel free to disregard any posts you like.

B


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

If you dont want to see these threads.... don't participate in them. IMO, I don't think it hurts to constantly have a doodle thread on the first page of posts. The new members that are coming to get educated but are too scared to ask questions yet get a lot of information from these. And for every 1 person who rolls their eyes at "yet another" doodle thread, there are probably 2 people who SEE the way of thinking that's trying to be put across, and may change their decision. Anything helps, IMO


----------



## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> In an attempt to liven things up, I saw an ad saying:
> 
> SHITESE PUPPIES FOR SALE!


LOL thank you Laurelin, thank you
I've been doodled to death too..dead from discussing it too much. I second the one-year between doodle threads rule!


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

GUYS, the DOODLE THREADS WORK..... Keep em up....

Here is a quote from an email I got a month ago:

_"Let me just say that:

1) You are awesome with the detailed, honest, and very thorough replies. My wife and I both agree you should be a spokesperson for the breed!!
2) You’re killing me…we were 90% set on the doodle, and now I am back to really wanting a PWD based on what I’m reading. I continue to be very intrigued by this breed.

J"_

and here is part II

_"Your first email has sealed this for me. My wife and I have forever read hundreds of breeder web sites, articles, etc about PWD’s and it makes them sound like they’re just bezerk machines of energy….but keep asking ourselves, “Would a Golden breeder say the same thing about their dogs?? Probably”. We’ve also been talking very bluntly about the doodles in the last couple of days….very cute dogs, gotta be smart since you’re blending the #2 dog and #4 dog from intelligence studies….but….we could just as easily end up with 65 pound Doodle that sheds worse than our old Golden….then what?!?!? So I think we’re scratching them off the list, and will focus on finding a PWD. There is a lot of comfort knowing we’d have a very smart dog, knowing that she’d be ~40-45 pounds, knowing we could train her, and knowing that she will NOT shed."_

Yes, it did take me about 15 emails and about 15 hrs. to convice the family above to not get a Doodle, but it was because of this site and these types of threads, that they found me... It may be a drop in the bucket, but at least were making a small difference.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> But with $1,100 you probably could have got a dog that was health tested, had parents that were showed, and titled. I understand you wanting a doodle. Sure, thats your choice. But what you taught your kids is that if daddy wants to spend a grand on a dog while others die in shelters, daddy can. and i guess he can...


i don't want a dog whose parents are shown and titled.

a grand is not that much, when taking into consideration the high expenses involved with owning a dog over its lifetime.
if you want to save money, don't own any dog.

i got a dog that does not shed, is healthy, and both of the parent breeds are great with children.
he fits me, my family, and our neighbors just the way we hoped.

my children learned a lesson that diligent research pays off.

as well, they helped pay for him, that they would not ask for birthday and graduation presents (high school and junior high) from that year.

the issue of saving dogs is a valid point, only if you don't believe in breeding purebred dogs either, IMHO.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

FriendsOfZoe said:


> LOL thank you Laurelin, thank you
> I've been doodled to death too..dead from discussing it too much. I second the one-year between doodle threads rule!


That ad made me giggle.

I can see why 'maltatzu' has taken off over 'shitese'.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i don't want a dog whose parents are shown and titled.
> 
> a grand is not that much, when taking into consideration the high expenses involved with owning a dog over its lifetime.
> if you want to save money, don't own any dog.
> ...


I understand your want for a doodle. But honestly, I don't THINK that anyone can guarantee a MIXED breed dog to be non shedding. But thats besides the point. AT LEAST reputable purebred breeders are breeding for a CAUSE. And don't pretend "family companion" is the reason for doodles. There is no need for ANY new "breed" IMO until all the helpless dogs in shelters stop dying. A dog that is being bred and cannot be registered, and cannot be shown, IMO is no different than an oops litter. If you can answer me ONE simple question, I will stop talking about this subject.

WHY WAS OINEST WORTH $1100.00?

Oh and just to add if you wanted a non shedding dog, why not just get a poodle?

I also wanted to add that if we are being correct here, the correct term IS labraDoodle... but there is no D in poodle, so it cannot be GoldenDoodle. It should just be Goldenoodle.


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

4dogs3cats said:


> WHY WAS OINEST WORTH $1100.00?


I think you're stepping into shaky ground here. Oinest is I'm sure, a great dog and that alone will justify his expenses to Dog-Man's family. Sometimes that is reason enough for people.

That's not to say one way or another on the doodle issue, but arguing that someone's dog is not worth what they payed really ISN'T going to get anywhere. You'd be hard pressed to find an owner who admits that their pet wasn't worth the price.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

FriendsOfZoe said:


> LOL thank you Laurelin, thank you
> I've been doodled to death too..dead from discussing it too much. I second the one-year between doodle threads rule!


Yeah!!!

Either change the subject back to the shelter crisis or close the thread.

I think we have all been doodled to death by know.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Dog-Man,

No one is doubting that you have a great dog. And that dog wasn't worth every penny you spent as it makes you and your family happy.

But can't you step back from your own position for a second and look at the big picture. Look at the forrest, not just the tree's.

The position we are taking, is not that Doodle's don't have the potential to be great dogs. The position we are taking is, the people that have chosen to breed Doodles, have done so for financial reasons rather than in the interest of the breed.

And while there are many fine examples of Doodle's out there, there are also many, many examples that have been terminated because they were un-sellable, shedding, health issued, dogs.

and furthermore, the idea of designer dogs, is creating a larger problem in general, for shelters, rescue's, etc. Because the people behind these designer dogs are trying to generate a product, that is largely, a genetic, luck of the draw.

The point of showing and confirmation is not to wear a tweed jacket and prance around on carpet (although, that is sometimes the reality.) The point of showing and confirmations is to try to continually generate dogs that are healthier, more well behaved, are suited to their "jobs", etc.

We are just trying to get people to understand that the entire practice of generating designer dogs, is taxing a shelter system that is already taxed. It's piling on the problems. 

And while people may have fantastic doodles, I'm sure you have seen plenty of versions that you are not proud to share the manufactured breed name with.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Ginny01OT said:


> Borzoimom, I couldn't agree with you more!! Well said!!!


*starts singing "bob marleys onelove"*

Agree with what?,there is no certainty niether substance in the OP?



Laurelin said:


> In an attempt to liven things up, I saw an ad saying:
> 
> SHITESE PUPPIES FOR SALE!
> 
> Someone needs a better marketing exec, lmao.


LMFAO


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I think you're stepping into shaky ground here. Oinest is I'm sure, a great dog and that alone will justify his expenses to Dog-Man's family. Sometimes that is reason enough for people.
> 
> That's not to say one way or another on the doodle issue, but arguing that someone's dog is not worth what they payed really ISN'T going to get anywhere. You'd be hard pressed to find an owner who admits that their pet wasn't worth the price.


Oh I know. I am sure that Oinest looking back WAS worth every penny. I paid 100 bucks for Chance, and then 5 grand to save his life, and he was worth it, when I easily could have paid 80 bucks to put him down and find a new dog. Oinest is adorable, and like I said, sure he was worth every penny. I should have rephrased. I am sorry.

How did the breeder justify his price? I have found that most often the breeders will slap the huge price tag on simply because they can, and the doodles and whatnot have become status symbols, (not saying that was your intention, it doesnt seem like it was... but then again, you ARE in the hamptons right? I used to go there every weekend, I am well aware of status there.) anywho... if the breeder justified the price of him with health tests, the neueter, a health guarantee, etc, all the things purebred breeders do, than that isnt my issue. But IMO and in my experience, I have not really been able to see the price backed up. I have NEVER seen a doodle for less than 500 dollars, but I have seen them untested, not neueterd, and no guarantee.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Back to the shelter crisis, this is one of the cute PUPPIES available at the shelter I work at.










I want her soooo bad.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I am stepping away from oinest as I do not want to offend.

http://www.goldendoodletown.com/puppies.htm

What makes THESE puppies worth over a housand dollars?


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

I think ya'll are being a little hard on Dog-man. He has stated numerous times that his next dog will be from a shelter. Yeah for Dog-man, he's saving a life.

And I also notice that we are constantly ridiculing Dog-man for painting a wide brush over complicated issues. But aren't you doing the same thing about doodle breeders. I'm sure there are some doodle breeders that are really doing the best they can for those puppies. That health clear the parents before breeding, socialize the puppies, and then go on to interview buyers.

For me that makes a responsible breeder. 

But on a side note, if they do want to make these dogs a breed they really need to think of a better names. That's just my 2 cents.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> I paid 100 bucks for Chance, and then 5 grand to save his life, and he was worth it, when I easily could have paid 80 bucks to put him down and find a new dog.


that is a major issue...many shelter dogs cost people in large, unexpected initial vet costs.

i think the issue of cost is irrelevant, unless it is exhorbitant.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

No I agree with you, which I why I stpped away from asking about Oinest specifically. I just wish the breeders wouldn't charge so much! It just bugs me that they charge so much simply because they CAN.

Kody came from a BYB. A byb by name but these people did CARE for him, and removed the dew claws, and gave him 1st set of shots, and sent me home with a puppy packet, with NKC registration. And you could tell he was well socialized, he loves EVERYONE. But- IMO they probably did it for the money. But the 200 I spent on Kody is a big difference than over a THOUSAND for the mixed breeds I see in the paper. I just dont get the justification for it.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Back to the shelter crisis, this is one of the cute PUPPIES available at the shelter I work at.
> 
> I want her soooo bad.


She is cute. My sister wants a new dog. I had to talk her down today from buying a dog at the feedstore. She's become interested in boxers and I found this one online today. I just love the name Hannah.

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10239144


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> How did the breeder justify his price?


i don't know what their justification is.
there are expenses, and they are trying to make a profit.

the puppy stores where i am charge $1000 easy.

if a breeder can get it, let them make a living, as long as they work to produce healthy pups.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

dog-man said:


> that is a major issue...many shelter dogs cost people in large, unexpected initial vet costs.
> 
> i think the issue of cost is irrelevant, unless it is exhorbitant.


No i see what you're saying. Chance was listed in the paper as a purebred GSD, first set of shots, 7 weeks old. I went out of curiosity, and ended up literally rescuing him from the filthy horrid conditions he was in. IMO, over a thousand dollars is extreme when they aren't doing any testing. Just because they mix poodle and golden doesnt mean it isnt going to have any health problems. (I, of course would never wish that on a dog, and hope Oinest lives a full happy life.) I have nothing against the doodles in the world today, I have issues with the people who are deliberatly breeding them to make money. So I have issues with doodles in the future if you want to put it that way lol.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

All I have to say is... I LOVE MY DOODLE. So there. Shoot me. I don't care. I love her and her non shedding ways. In fact, right or wrong...I ADORE all doodles! Love them! I think they are the cutest things to have ever graced this earth. Is it wrong to breed them? YES. Should it be stopped? Yes. Should everyone that wants one go and rescue one? Yes. But just because they're so wrongly bred doesn't mean I don't just want to run up to everyone that I see and squeeze the...um...doodle out of them. I am SICK to death of people slamming them because my Ella is one and I am damn proud of her! Ok ...sorry. Please forgive me...just had to jump on my soapbox in defense of doodles. I know, I know, it's all wrong....blah blah blah. I still love them and would love to adopt as many a doodle I can in the future.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> and the doodles and whatnot have become status symbols, (not saying that was your intention, it doesnt seem like it was... but then again, you ARE in the hamptons right? I used to go there every weekend, I am well aware of status there.) .


no, i don't live in the Hamptoms, and i am not rich.

and i do not care about status symbols and never did.

the purpose in getting a goldendoodle is simple...loving goldens, but wanting a low-shed, somewhat hypo-allergenic version.

the poodle adds some other nice features, too.

and, no, a poodle or portuguese water dog doesn't do the trick for me or others.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

DobManiac said:


> I think ya'll are being a little hard on Dog-man.


HA HA,hold on D.M,dog-man has annoyed many people yet he has every right to,this is a Dog forum.
Everyone will have have a different view,he's has been different from day one.

Sometimes interesting sometimes annoying.
He isnt a troll like ive seen on "off topic" he has an opinion and is entitiled to it.
Personally this "thread" is wrong and aimed at him,now many could say "he deserves it",dog-man isnt the only doddle owner here.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Ella'sMom said:


> All I have to say is... I LOVE MY DOODLE. So there. Shoot me. I don't care. I love her and her non shedding ways. In fact, right or wrong...I ADORE all doodles! Love them! I think they are the cutest things to have ever graced this earth. Is it wrong to breed them? YES. Should it be stopped? Yes. Should everyone that wants one go and rescue one? Yes. But just because they're so wrongly bred doesn't mean I don't just want to run up to everyone that I see and squeeze the...um...doodle out of them. I am SICK to death of people slamming them because my Ella is one and I am damn proud of her! Ok ...sorry. Please forgive me...just had to jump on my soapbox in defense of doodles. I know, I know, it's all wrong....blah blah blah. I still love them and would love to adopt as many a doodle I can in the future.


I'm not slamming doodles. I love ALL dogs. All dogs deserve love and the best life they can have. And I am sure that if you spend the grand on a dog, you probably can afford all the vet visits and any mishaps that happen. I am in no way belittling anyone who OWNS one. because I am sure that you and dog-man are giving Ella and oinest the very best life you can and you are both dog lovers to fight so stronly for what you believe in.



dog-man said:


> no, i don't live in the Hamptoms, and i am not rich.
> 
> and i do not care about status symbols and never did.
> 
> ...


what do you mean they dont do the trick?



dog-man said:


> i don't know what their justification is.
> there are expenses, and they are trying to make a profit.
> 
> the puppy stores where i am charge $1000 easy.
> ...


The puppy stores are NO better. The puppy stores have to pay rent so they charge extreme prices too, for puppies worse off than doodle breeders.

A lot of breeders of titled, champion, guaranteed, tested, healthy dogs, do not breed for profit, that was my point.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> if the breeder justified the price of him with health tests, the neueter, a health guarantee, etc, all the things purebred breeders do, than that isnt my issue. But IMO and in my experience, I have not really been able to see the price backed up. I have NEVER seen a doodle for less than 500 dollars, but I have seen them untested, not neueterd, and no guarantee.


many doodle breeders do the exact same things as the reputable purebred breeders...unfortunately, that raises the prices even more.

my breeder neutered, did all the right things by the vet, gave a health guarantee, etc...but no HD test on the parents as the "better" ones do.

my impression was that she had happy dogs, and that she chose the best dogs for breeding.
she claims that all her poodles lived in the house, whereas many retrievers enjoyed other parts of the farm.
all the dogs run after her when the family rides their horses.

i believed her then and still do.

her love of her dogs was obvious to me.



4dogs3cats said:


> And I am sure that if you spend the grand on a dog, you probably can afford all the vet visits and any mishaps that happen.


on the other dog forum i was on, there was a thread about how much money people spent on their dogs per year.

i found myself at the most frugal of the list...even though i start out with $350 in health insurance, $300 in grooming per year, and the usual shots, flea medicine, and checkup each year.

it was unbelievable what people spent...especially those who got their dogs from shelters...and they did not seem like rich folk.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

dog-man,

I know that not every breed is not for every person. I am curious though, as I seem to be the only PWD owner that visits this site.

What is it about the PWD? Why does the PWD have or not have that the Doodle does? Or Vice Versa?

I do of course realize that the PWD can be a bit pricey. But other than that, what void does the Doodle fill that the PWD doesn't?

I want to understand.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> A lot of breeders of titled, champion, guaranteed, tested, healthy dogs, do not breed for profit, that was my point.


breeding for ribbons is not necessarily that much different than doing it for money.

some in each group keep in mind the best interests of the dogs as well, and some don't.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This thread makes me cringe.

It is intolerable that anyone here would make anyone else feel defensive about their dog. What I'm hearing is a lot of, "Oh, I love ALL dogs, but anyone who would pay $1000 or more for a mix is insane." 

The initial cost of any dog is irrelevant. Esther, a shelter dog, easily did $1000 worth of damage the first few months she was learning to live with humans. I spend over $1000/year on kibble for my two dogs.

I hear a lot of complaints about the silly names. I can't comment, as I have a Plott hound. You can't get much sillier than "Plott hound."

I actually read through this whole thread thinking there might be one original thought here. There isn't. It's all summer reruns. 

I think anyone who believes that threads like this are going to impact the breeding and popularity of designer breeds is delusional.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Dog Man,

Could you please post a few pictures of your dog. I have no intention of saying anything mean and hope other members don't either.

I'm just curious what your Doodle looks like. Again, no hostile intentions. I'm just curious.

B


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

B-Line said:


> dog-man,
> 
> I know that not every breed is not for every person. I am curious though, as I seem to be the only PWD owner that visits this site.
> 
> ...


i am only going by what i read in the books that i did research in.
i have met very few.

The PWD seemed as if it had somewhat more energy to burn than i could handle (especially fulfilling possible water exercise needs).
i give Oinest lots of exercise...that is a major reason i got him, so that he would force me to exercise walk too.
but the PWD seemed like an extra step above, in energy.

as well, i wanted a dog with the sweetest disposition possible, to other dogs, strangers, small children etc.
the PWD seemed like a good choice for other people...but i wanted EXTREME in this area...and a good goldendoodle fit that for me.

a PWD also seemed a little more wary of strangers and strange dogs, although i believe they had high marks as well.

i don't know if some of you folks are aware of the potential sweetness in a good goldendoodle.
there are some videos on UTUBE that i saw from regualar owners, that gave the same sense of what i see in Oinest.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Ron E,

Like all things in life, EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION...

Most people don't know about Doodles or alternative breeds or what designer breeds do to shelters, etc.

But if we take the time to educate people, maybe we can help, even if it's just a little.

And to say you didn't read one original post in the entire thread, to that I can only say, that you only read what you wanted to.

B


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Rone u are so right.

Since when did real dog lovers start putting a price on the perfect pet?

If u have a £1000 pure bred dog that is ur happiness,be happy.

If u rescued a shelter dog in need of a loving home,be equally as happy.


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

tirluc said:


> i don't know, guys....i think maybe i'll start breeding Borderdoodles.....i mean, don't you think that they'd be the ULTIMATE dog?....don't know what for, for sure, but give me time.....i'll think of _something_...........i actually had someone ask me about doing that a couple yrs ago....
> 
> but i know what you mean, borzoimom, it has really gotten out of hand w/ the designer thing.....


Hahahaha...

And yeah, I totally agree...I have heard and seen too much of the 'doodle' fad lately...


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I think you're stepping into shaky ground here. Oinest is I'm sure, a great dog and that alone will justify his expenses to Dog-Man's family. Sometimes that is reason enough for people.
> 
> That's not to say one way or another on the doodle issue, but arguing that someone's dog is not worth what they payed really ISN'T going to get anywhere. You'd be hard pressed to find an owner who admits that their pet wasn't worth the price.


Thank you. This post was wonderful.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

B-Line said:


> Dog Man,
> 
> Could you please post a few pictures of your dog. I have no intention of saying anything mean and hope other members don't either.
> 
> I'm just curious what your Doodle looks like. Again, no hostile intentions. I'm just curious.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think dog-man has explained his decision about getting Oinest before. I'm pretty sure he knows how most people feel about designer dogs. 

I don't want to have to apologize for my mistakes or buying a dog from the places I have. I don't think anyone should come on here feeling bad about their dogs. I don't think someone introducing a new pup should get blasted about it if it was purchased in a seemingly 'less than responsible way'. 

I just don't see that helping at all.

Education yes.... to an extent. We should all be respectful as well. 

We live, we learn new information and reassess our ideas and ethics. Sometimes we choose to do things differently in the future than we have in the past. 

Oinest was bought and is obviously loved and cared for....so... what's the problem again?


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

B-Line said:


> Ron E,
> 
> Like all things in life, EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION...
> 
> ...


What is there to educate about?
He has a dog and and a MASSIVE opinion,but he has a dog?

Maybe you need to educate yourself seeing as your dog cost so much,look into dogs that are less to "phurchase" and what lifestyles thier owners tend to lead.

Dog-man always pushes buttons but he also raises "traits" of people that i dont agree with.

(i dont mean the show dog thread because thats where i dissagree with him)


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

I think the price thing is being misunderstood..

You can't put a price on love.

I think what people are trying to say is, if a purebreed dog costs $1000, it's because the breeders have invested, almost a $1000 to generate that dog.

But a non pure breed dog, where the owners have not taken the expense to confirm the dog, to show the dog, to do extensive health testing, does not have the same INVESTED in, lets call it, RESEARCH and DEVELOPMENT.

Does that make the dog less worthy? Of course not. But what it generally does mean, is that the margins of a designer dog are higher, because there are no qualifications or testing.

So rather than your money going into Research and Development, it's going into EARNINGS..


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I actually read a lot more than I wanted to. I tend to pay close attention to the hundreds of doodle threads that have appeared on dogforums (like mold spores after a flood) because they frequently become divisive and require moderator intervention.

When someone here already has a doodle, it's not EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION, it's NAGGING, NAGGING, NAGGING.

Edit: Man, I look at those pictures of Oinest (and I have no reason to doubt he has the personality to match) and I think, "Who WOULDN'T want a dog like that?"

I've met some doodles and, like dogs in general (and people) there are good ones and not-so-great ones. The best of them would melt your heart.

I'm sure not going to be the one who says, "No, you can't even WANT that kind of dog because it's not a real breed."

For those of you who are comfortable saying that, educate away. But I think your time and passion might be better spent educating the people out there who routinely abuse and abandon purebreds AND mutts, without making the distinction.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


>


See, Oinest can't be all bad, he's reading LOTR.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

dog-man said:


> many doodle breeders do the exact same things as the reputable purebred breeders...unfortunately, that raises the prices even more.
> 
> my breeder neutered, did all the right things by the vet, gave a health guarantee, etc...but no HD test on the parents as the "better" ones do.
> 
> ...


I see your point. I really do. I personally do not care how much YOU spend on your dog. I was just wondering how the breeder justified it.

It sounds like of all the doodle breeders, you did get a good one.

I am not a breeder. I do not show my dogs. 2 of my 4 dogs came from the newspaper.

I am simply a 21 year old human being who comes on this forum to debate things. I simply DETEST when the things said get treated like they dont matte because they have been said before. Especially when things are said by the moderators. It just bugs me. Im not saying Oinest wasnt worth 1,000. I STATED THAT CLEARLY. I like dog-man. I know maybe some people dont. I ENJOY debating with him. I like when things get duscussed back and forth. he opens my eyes to things as i am sure we do him. I hate when people say things like "how many times do we have to talk about this." SO DONT participate. Seriously. Dog-man. oinest is adorable. I am sure he was worth every penny. i could never spend 1,000 on a dog. 2 years ago I wanted to buy a "pocket" beagle for 1200.00 and swore that would be my next dog. I cant afford the 1,000 off the bat. I can afford some here and there and vet visits and toys and food. I did not mean to offend you in any way shape or form. it seems like you know that, but some people dont. I guess I will head back to off topic where I belong.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Ron,

I guessed you missed my post where I explained that a family, close to buying a Doodle, contacted me, and is now going in a different direction.

That was because of EDUCATION.

I'm not nagging dog-man.. I think his dog is beautiful.. As are the other doodle's on this site.

But trying to encourage people to subscribe to an understanding of breed's isn't exactly nagging..


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

B-Line said:


> Dog-Man,
> 
> But can't you step back from your own position for a second and look at the big picture. Look at the forrest, not just the tree's.
> 
> ...


i do not put all experimental "designer" dogs in the same category as goldendoodles and labradoodles.

they have proven themselves to be excellent dogs, coming from a good breeder, and in the hands of an educated owner.

i do not consider selling dogs for money to necessarily be a problem.

if you love dogs, and you want to make a name for yourself...to stand out in the crowd...by breeding quality dogs...that is one way to make a lot of money.

like anything else, buyer beware...do your research.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Rone u are so right.
> 
> Since when did real dog lovers start putting a price on the perfect pet?
> 
> ...


Exactly, I spent $750 to purchase Dawn from a BYB. Then a year later I spent $5000 plus for her to have three back surgeries. It was only supposed to be one surgery, but they kept having complications with the repairs. 

I hate what she had to go through, and if this happened to a dog down the line I most likely wouldn't get the surgery, But I don't regert my desicion for Dawn, because she is still my happy go lucky little girl. And I could never put a price on how much she means to me.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Since I bought Ella......I have learned so much about byb's.....designer dogs etc. Do you know how hard it is to go out with Ella and have people ask what kind of dog she is? I cringe at that question. I usually just say "she's a mutt.....half spaniel/ half poodle". I don't dare divulge the information that I bought her from a breeder. I am downright ashamed about that to be honest with you. But I will say this, I love my dog and for whatever reason, doodles turn my head. There are a lot of them in my town and my 5 year old daughter and I stop at every one we see and do the ole "awwwwwwww". Ella is the greatest dog I have ever had and she will never be at a shelter looking for a home. Most of the doodles I know also are wonderful dogs and the owners love them. I am NOT condoning the breeding of them. Only saying that the "doodle bashing" is a bit hurtful to us people that already own them. Ella is my baby and when I read about how wrong of a "breed" she is...it sort of upsets me. Enough of the "Anti-doodle" threads already. Yes, educate people and guide them to shelters/ rescues to find mixed breeds...but don't slam these dogs.....because there are a lot of people that love and care about them out there.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

B-Line said:


> The point of showing and confirmation is not to wear a tweed jacket and prance around on carpet (although, that is sometimes the reality.) The point of showing and confirmations is to try to continually generate dogs that are healthier, more well behaved, are suited to their "jobs", etc.


if you want my opinion on conformation and showing, go to the recent, long show dog thread.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

To me... its not that these things don't matter...

It's just... there's really a time and a place to debate them. When someone asks for advice if they're thinking of going to a byb/pet store whatever then I'm all FOR educating then. I'd hope it'd be done in a respectful tone.

This is what a reputable breeder offers: _________ . This is what a non reputable breeder offers: __________. What exactly are the benefits of going the reputable route? 

When someone's showing off their dog or introducing their new puppy... not so much. I don't think you'll be rallying anyone to your cause that way anytime soon.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> See, Oinest can't be all bad, he's reading LOTR.


Oinest is one of the cutest dogs I have ever seen. I love him to death!

Oops meant to post that from dog-man's post. *puts down drink*


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

dog-man your dog is a nice looking dog. Without being insulting as I would not try to insult anyones dog, but I must say the Oinest looks very Poodle to me. He must have gotten most of the Poodle genes. Just an observation. I like Poodles. I have just seen Golden doodles that looked a lot different then Oinest. 
As far as putting a price on anyone's dog and saying the dog is or is not worth it. Well, I personally think my dogs are worth Millions though many of you might not think they were worth $10.00. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I understand the frustration with the whole designer breeds thing, I also do not like it but I couldn't put a price on a dog and say one is worth it while another is not. Once a dog of any breed stands in front of me, I see an individual with a personality of it's own regardless of breed or mix.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

B-Line said:


> So rather than your money going into Research and Development, it's going into EARNINGS..


but if people think you have the best product, they don't care about your expenses.

i think they have the best product.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ella'sMom said:


> Since I bought Ella......I have learned so much about byb's.....designer dogs etc. Do you know how hard it is to go out with Ella and have people ask what kind of dog she is? I cringe at that question. I usually just say "she's a mutt.....half spaniel/ half poodle". I don't dare divulge the information that I bought her from a breeder. I am downright ashamed about that to be honest with you. But I will say this, I love my dog and for whatever reason, doodles turn my head. There are a lot of them in my town and my 5 year old daughter and I stop at every one we see and do the ole "awwwwwwww". Ella is the greatest dog I have ever had and she will never be at a shelter looking for a home. Most of the doodles I know also are wonderful dogs and the owners love them. I am NOT condoning the breeding of them. Only saying that the "doodle bashing" is a bit hurtful to us people that already own them. Ella is my baby and when I read about how wrong of a "breed" she is...it sort of upsets me. Enough of the "Anti-doodle" threads already. Yes, educate people and guide them to shelters/ rescues to find mixed breeds...but don't slam these dogs.....because there are a lot of people that love and care about them out there.


You should NOT be ashamed. You gave a dog a good home and you love her. 

You bought a good dog from a not so good breeder. So have I. 

We all live and learn and it's important we all remember back when we made the same 'mistakes' even if our dogs purchased weren't 'designer dogs'. 

None of us were born with the experience we have now...


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> I am simply a 21 year old human being who comes on this forum to debate things. I.


i enjoy debating when people are not rude.

don't feel like you have to walk on eggshells not to insult me.

debate away when you disagree or want to clarify.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

I was kind of surprised by the OP originals post because I have been on the Richmond SPCA waiting list for a doodle, preferably a young Goldendoodle, for almost a year.

I have been checking in weekly, and the volunteers there tell me that clearly identifiable labradoodles come through rarely and Goldendoodles not at all.

The labradoodles that have come in have been adopted before I have even had a chance to see them.

It seems odd that the other VA SPCAs are full of doodles, however I will give them a call and let you know what I find out.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

I'm sitting here in just ahhh. How could so many members turn like this on such a subject? I find this silly that a topic on a forum could actually turn peoples views on a member. I will admit I'm loosing a lot of respect for many members here lately. No one takes an opinion on a topic as just that, an opinion. They always think it's about themselves. Like people saying this is an attack on Dog-man. Seriously? I think many of us have much better things to do than to make threads about Dog-man or any other member for that fact. 

I personally can see where Bmom is coming from. If you've ever worked in rescue and get those calls and emails about the groups of dogs that come in and need help, you'd see a huge difference or I'd think you'd be able to. I get so many emails with lists and lists of dogs ready to be pts, are being taken to the kill shelter if they're not saved, pictures of beaten dogs. This would have been no different if it were a thread about labs, shih tzus of god forbid pitbulls. There are going to be people who love the breed(s).

These threads weren't made to talk about YOUR dogs. Geez. Step off of your soapbox stop arguing and let the subject go on. These threads get turned so fast it's not even enjoyable to come onto this forum any more. 

No one here has anything against a breed(s) (from what I've read) it's where they come from and how they get there. I don't care where you pull your dog from, but don't preach one thing and turn around and do another. 

I have no problem with these threads, but as soon as some one take it the wrong way; dishes start to fly. Get over yourself.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

RonE said:


> Man, I look at those pictures of Oinest (and I have no reason to doubt he has the personality to match) and I think, "Who WOULDN'T want a dog like that?"


thanks Ron.

i see the dog in your avatar, and get jealous as well.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Ella's mom,

I understand your frustration and your love for Doodles. And I think your position on the dogs is GREAT. I admire you really and were not trying to hurt your feelings.

I think you really understand our position, but you still love your dog. And there is nothing wrong with that.

I think Ella and Oinest are great looking dogs. 

But you also have to understand why this is a trigger topic and why we are trying to discourage people from furthering the so-called breed.

If anything, our voice may help tighten up the Doodle breeding community. Maybe our voice will encourage some sort of standard, testing, confirmation. So that way the future of the "breed" may thrive, rather than becoming a general name for anyone trying to sell a mutt and profit from the venture.

The Doodle people should stand up, stand behind us. Take action! 

But sitting on the fence and saying, I have a great dog, isn't helping either side.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> See, Oinest can't be all bad, he's reading LOTR.


yes, lady of the forest...Oinest shares my passion for Middle Earth.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

B-Line said:


> But a non pure breed dog, where the owners have not taken the expense to confirm the dog, to show the dog, to do extensive health testing, does not have the same INVESTED in, lets call it, RESEARCH and DEVELOPMENT.


Right i really dont like this comment!

You talk about dogs like they are some type of computer equipment.

Confirmation is not the bee all and end all.

Investment is what i would hope to make money from,my dog i would not!!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


> yes, lady of the forest...Oinest shares my passion for Middle Earth.


I have to approve as I'm quite obviously a Middle Earth fan as well. (Most people don't catch the username, good job!)


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

RonE said:


> I actually read a lot more than I wanted to. I tend to pay close attention to the hundreds of doodle threads that have appeared on dogforums (like mold spores after a flood) because they frequently become divisive and require moderator intervention.
> 
> When someone here already has a doodle, it's not EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION, it's NAGGING, NAGGING, NAGGING.
> 
> ...



*Jumps up and claps for Ron* 

Thank you.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

B-Line said:


> I think the price thing is being misunderstood..
> 
> You can't put a price on love.
> 
> ...


thank you. of all people I would NEVER EVER say someone dog wasn't worth the money. How could anybody think I am that rude? I CRY when other peoples dogs die. Dogs I have never met. Excuse me for wanting to get into a heated debate. Work is slow today, and I am enjoying this discussion.

Did I anywhere say that Dog-man or Ellas mom should burn their dogs at the stake for being doodles? Cuz if I did, than I could understand the personal bashing of the things I said. I could understand where I was being presumed not compassionate. But seriously?


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Teddie I also do not like the designer dog thing as you well know. That said I do not wish to attack anyones personal dog and that is what seemed to be happening. Admittedly I did not read all the posts. I get sick of the same old same old. LOL I do think it is normal for the same heated topics to continue coming up on a forum like this as there are new people on here every day. New questions and new viewpoints. There are also just some days a person needs to vent. I have had to vent about such things myself after a long day or week of rescue work. People on that side of the fence will, no doubt never be able to see any good in the purposeful mixing of already existing dog breeds.


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Dog Man,

I also enjoy a spirited debate. 

You said before, you don't care about Research and Development, you care about the best product.

But I would argue, that not all offspring of the Standard and Golden, would be considered, best product, Doodle material.

There are soooo many dogs that are Doodle's, but are not called Doodle's because they don't have the best examples of both breeds. And those are the ones with the poor coats and bad health that end up in the shelters.

Those are not the high priced ones the end up in the nice homes. 

It's the broken clock theory. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

I'm sure with Doodle liters, you have 30% dogs that have the best of both. 30% dogs that have best and worst of both, 30% dogs that have worst of both and 10% that's something strange and or interesting.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Rone that was well said.

The rest is BS.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> thanks Ron.
> 
> i see the dog in your avatar, and get jealous as well.


Yeah, she looks sweet, doesn't she?

Don't let the photo fool you. She's hell-on-wheels. Her full name is Hurricane Esther.

We came out of a restaurant a while back and there was a labradoodle sitting in the passenger seat of the car parked next to us. The dog watched me with such a look of understanding, nobility and patience that I instantly fell in love with him. I didn't care what breed or non-breed he was. I looked into his eyes and thought, "That is a hell of a dog!"

He may have been exceptional. Oinest may be exceptional. I just know that I personally come here to share experiences about why we love our dogs. I think that is my choice, as a member. As a moderator, I'm not going to tell anyone that they can't spend their time here finding fault with other dogs, but it doesn't sound like fun to me.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

B-Line said:


> Ella's mom,
> 
> I understand your frustration and your love for Doodles. And I think your position on the dogs is GREAT. I admire you really and were not trying to hurt your feelings.
> 
> ...



And I soooo know where you are coming from. Trust me, I have had people ask me where I got Ella because they too wanted to call this breeder and buy one and I wouldn't give them the name. I told them to please check shelters or go online because there are so many that already need homes.
Again, just because I bought Ella from a breeder does not mean I will ever encourage anyone else to do so.

Btw, I frequently check my breeders website and get so saddened because he is pumping out these puppies like they're candy. Ella's mother has had at least 4 litters since she had Ella. I feel so sorry for her...poor thing.

Ok sorry I got off topic. Carry on.



4dogs3cats said:


> thank you. of all people I would NEVER EVER say someone dog wasn't worth the money. How could anybody think I am that rude? I CRY when other peoples dogs die. Dogs I have never met. Excuse me for wanting to get into a heated debate. Work is slow today, and I am enjoying this discussion.
> 
> Did I anywhere say that Dog-man or Ellas mom should burn their dogs at the stake for being doodles? Cuz if I did, than I could understand the personal bashing of the things I said. I could understand where I was being presumed not compassionate. But seriously?





You are always compassionate in your posts....I have never been offended by you.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Inga said:


> Teddie I also do not like the designer dog thing as you well know. That said I do not wish to attack anyones personal dog and that is what seemed to be happening. Admittedly I did not read all the posts. I get sick of the same old same old. LOL I do think it is normal for the same heated topics to continue coming up on a forum like this as there are new people on here every day. New questions and new viewpoints. There are also just some days a person needs to vent. I have had to vent about such things myself after a long day or week of rescue work. People on that side of the fence will, no doubt never be able to see any good in the purposeful mixing of already existing dog breeds.


I think I'm on about the same page as you Inga. I love mutts obviously! Never would I say something about some ones dog. No matter where it comes from youre going to love him. 

Without getting way off topic I said what I had to say in my post above. I really do hope this thread gets closed and soon.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i enjoy debating when people are not rude.
> 
> don't feel like you have to walk on eggshells not to insult me.
> 
> debate away when you disagree or want to clarify.


I hope I didnt insult you in any way.



Ella'sMom said:


> And I soooo know where you are coming from. Trust me, I have had people ask me where I got Ella because they too wanted to call this breeder and buy one and I wouldn't give them the name. I told them to please check shelters or go online because there are so many that already need homes.
> Again, just because I bought Ella from a breeder does not mean I will ever encourage anyone else to do so.
> 
> Btw, I frequently check my breeders website and get so saddened because he is pumping out these puppies like they're candy. Ella's mother has had at least 4 litters since she had Ella. I feel so sorry for her...poor thing.
> ...


I hope nobody thinks I was bashing THEIR dogs.. I mean seriously.. is that what you guys think i am here for? How many times did I say I was NOT speaking about your dogs specifically. Ellas mom you said it yourself. 4 breeds SINCE Ella? Thats a heck of a lot for one poor dog. Its the justification and the reasing behind it. Not the dogs themselves. The same can be said of champion and titled dogs breeding., You;re not getting a perfect dog every time, so why do it. man I really didnt think I would be so misunderstood here, I would NEVER turn down a dog starving on my doorstep, doodle, uggle, pooh, or anything. I am just talking about the breeding here.

I NEVER said Oinest wasnt WORTH the money spend. I did clarify and ask how the breeder justified it, did I not. Or are we only seeing what we want to see again?


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Ella's mom,

I really believe, if there were more Doodle owners like you, I wouldn't need to stand up and say how I feel.

You really do understand where we are coming from and the concern you have for Ella's biological mom, is exactly how I feel. And why I try so hard to "educate"..

I worry about these Doodle factories. 

It took me 6 months to find a dog and was put through the ringer with several breeders, and I already had a dog of the same breed. 

I will try to be more sensitive in my comments and please don't think it makes Ella any less of a great dog. I just wish Ella's other mommy didn't have to put out so many liters. (I think the ideal is two liters per dog.)

B


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Ella'sMom said:


> You are always compassionate in your posts....I have never been offended by you.


Thank you. That means a lot. I was getting all worked up and I was starting to feel attacked.



TeddieXRuxpin said:


> I think I'm on about the same page as you Inga. I love mutts obviously! Never would I say something about some ones dog. No matter where it comes from youre going to love him.
> 
> Without getting way off topic I said what I had to say in my post above. I really do hope this thread gets closed and soon.


But things were fine. I dont know why people get upset when people start getting into a heated debate. Thats what the forum is here for. I would be SO bored if everyone always agreed all the time.

I hope no one thought I was bashing THEIR dog. I wasn't. I was commenting on the breeding practice. i thought everyone knew that.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It's not just doodle factories though... it's just dog factories. True, right now most focus on the designer mixes and toy breeds, but the problem there still isn't the doodle, really. It's just the fact that there are these horrible breeders breeding what's trendy with no thought about the welfare of the dogs in question.


----------



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Mutts are mutts, I could change Roxy's "breed" from a mix, to a Weilerobie to try and spice it up, but I would feel foolish.

Do you know what I paid for my mutt? Nothing. Free!

My main, personal issue with it has already been mentioned, but it's paying an insane amount for a mutt. Boring I know, but to me, it's worth while to mention again. There are a number of dogs out there you could get for free, as puppies that have come into life no different than your doodle whatever, probably aren't health tested either that could be great FAMILY dogs as well.

Also, if anyone else is involved in training, I'd be interested to know if you've noticed that a number of specifically, GOLDEN-doodles, have become somewhat dog-reactive around the age of two.

Tuesday night was registration night for our next set and FIVE golden-doodles from 15 months to almost 2 and a half years that have out of the blue become "dog aggressive" and now have issues in the home.

One woman has titled a few dogs in her time and is someone I would not call a newb to dog training.

The few I've seen in classes are generally pleasant enough, except for one (It's not her breed, I just don't like her! LOL) but this sudden influx of golden doodles that are having issues is interesting to me. I wonder if anyone else has seen this anywhere.

And I obviously am aware that this could be totally owner related, I just thought it may have been more than a coincidence seeing as there were 5 dogs and all the families had the same stories.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

B-Line said:


> Ella's mom,
> 
> I really believe, if there were more Doodle owners like you, I wouldn't need to stand up and say how I feel.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I hope nobody thinks we are teaming up to bash their doodles. I honestly love both Oinest and Ella, and think I have told their owners previously. I, too feel bad for Ella's mom No dog should be put through that many litters. Poor girl.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

4dogs3cats said:


> I hope I didnt insult you in any way.
> 
> 
> I hope nobody thinks I was bashing THEIR dogs.. I mean seriously.. is that what you guys think i am here for? How many times did I say I was NOT speaking about your dogs specifically. Ellas mom you said it yourself. 4 breeds SINCE Ella? Thats a heck of a lot for one poor dog. Its the justification and the reasing behind it. Not the dogs themselves. The same can be said of champion and titled dogs breeding., You;re not getting a perfect dog every time, so why do it. man I really didnt think I would be so misunderstood here, I would NEVER turn down a dog starving on my doorstep, doodle, uggle, pooh, or anything. I am just talking about the breeding here.
> ...



Your posts have not offended me in the least!


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

4dogs3cats said:


> I hope no one thought I was bashing THEIR dog. I wasn't. I was commenting on the breeding practice. i thought everyone knew that.


I think you're ok, Jen. Even if there was some misunderstanding to begin with - it's (hopefully) been cleared up as of now. No need to worry


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

B-Line said:


> Ella's mom,
> 
> I really believe, if there were more Doodle owners like you, I wouldn't need to stand up and say how I feel.
> 
> ...





Thank you for this post. Every time I log onto the breeders web page and read "Natasha had a new litter!" I cry. I swear it's at LEAST 4 times if not more since she had Ella. The poor dog always looks so tired and sad. That's no life. To me she is a money maker for this guy ....and I supported that.  I feel awful about it. I love Ella to death but kick myself for contributing to this. Ok...off to bed - I am getting upset just thinking of this poor dog being bred over and over again. So sad. Night all.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> It's not just doodle factories though... it's just dog factories. True, right now most focus on the designer mixes and toy breeds, but the problem there still isn't the doodle, really. It's just the fact that there are these horrible breeders breeding what's trendy with no thought about the welfare of the dogs in question.


EXACTLY. I would like to step away from doodles for a moment. When I got Kody- I was NAIVE. VERY VERY FOOLISH. 19 years old, just got an apartment, wanted a beagle. Saw one in the paper, fell in love with those eyes, (who wouldnt?) and went and got him. When i got there I could hear puppies barking THROUGH THE WALL. They converted their garage into a "puppy area," they had mini dauschunds, beagles, and I think one other breed. I was like, "WOW they devoted their ENTIRE garage, they must really care!" yeah more like care about the money they'd be making. She told me she had 40 dogs out there. So I guess Kody really came from a puppy mill... he was healthy, he was cute, and he was well behaved. But he came from a terrible place. Coming HERE is what changed my views. Coming HERE is what makes me know that I will rescue for the rest of my life. (With a purebred here and there I'm sure.)


----------



## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

Dog Man,

One last thing. I did not enter into this debate to market PWD's. But I do feel your view on the breed, based on what you wrote, is somewhat incorrect.

Having said that, we need not discuss it here. We can save it for another time.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't care what any of you say. I'm still against poo mixes...

That's why I bring at least three poo bags with me on Elsa's daily walks.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

B-Line said:


> You said before, you don't care about Research and Development, you care about the best product.
> 
> But I would argue, that not all offspring of the Standard and Golden, would be considered, best product, Doodle material.
> 
> ...


first of all, with all "breeds", you need good breeders and educated owners.

my own thought, is the dogs in shelters are from a combination of some lack in these two requirements.

second, i don't put all doodles and experimental crossbreeds in the category of a goldendoodle.

what "worst" traits do you expect to come from a poodle and a golden?

if you can't handle the possibilty of any shedding, don't get a dog.

however, the curly haired goldendoodles are very likely to be the ones that share the poodle trait.

both dogs are great dogs.

so, if you end up with a little more of this one or a little more of this one, so what?

Oinest is almost always with me when i drive around...when we see a goldendoodle, i stop the car, open the window, and talk to the owner, while the dogs meet.

i always hear the same praise of the cross.

i meet other goldendoodles and their owners in dog parks.
same thing.

these are educated dog people.

i cannot speak for people who buy from breeders that don't use healthy dogs, or people who get a dog with no knowledge.
---------------------------

btw, i do not take any attacks on doodles as an attack on Oinest personally.

i just find it SOMETIMES to be an attack on intellectual honesty.
people say the darndest things.

i also have no problem with people wanting to debate.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't care what any of you say. I'm still against poo mixes...
> 
> That's why I bring at least three poo bags with me on Elsa's daily walks.




Hehe I love ya Curb.

You scare me with that first sentence. I was like "whaaat?????"


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And now let me puke.... I have images of poo rolling around in bags, thank you.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't care what any of you say. I'm still against poo mixes...
> 
> That's why I bring at least three poo bags with me on Elsa's daily walks.


LMFAO,as BM would say "over and out 4 me here"

Of course unless im singled out by post.lol


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Okay guys, can we relax a little here? It seems like every thread dog-man ventures into eventually ends up with people ragging on him from buying a doodle from a breeder.

I am not totally behind the decision he made either. But when he first arrived to DF he was put down a lot for 'preaching to the choir'. Are we not doing the same thing here? From what we can see, Oinest gets couch time, cuddle time, beach time. He is kept clean and in good health. He gets to socialise with other dogs, go out on car rides and occasionally delve into some epic fantasy novels. 

No, it's not ideal that some BYB got $1,000 from anyone anywhere, but in the meantime, there are still dogs that spend their lives in cages or on chains, dogs that are being denied food and water, etc. 

It seems like every thread around here ends up in everyone pressuring dog-man to just admit that he bought a mutt from a BYB and in doing so made a huge mistake. I'm not saying that it wasn't a mistake, and I'm certainly not saying that dog-man's posts don't grate my nerves sometimes, but can we live with each other and agree to disagree? It's like everytime I visit this forum there is some huge new controversy about this guy.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

B-Line said:


> Dog Man,
> 
> Could you please post a few pictures of your dog. I have no intention of saying anything mean and hope other members don't either.
> 
> ...


If your curious as to what an "Australian Labradoodle" looks like, well here is a photo of my Quincy, and he is 9 generations in development beyond first generation cross.









.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

fuzzie said:


> We had a weird influx of hounds lately, a litter of hound mixes a couple weeks ago, a litter of **** hounds and two beagle mixes now. It's odd.


Cus Uno won the Westminster, most likely. I'm sure Beagles got a spike in popularity and demand after that.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

rosemaryninja said:


> It's like everytime I visit this forum there is some huge new controversy about this guy.


We've ran out of new Dog-man issues. Now we have started to redebate the previous dog-man topics in the order of which the appeared.

But look forward to next week. I see a Oinist is Mr. Ed thread in or future.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> But look forward to next week. I see a Oinist is Mr. Ed thread in or future.


Well, I mean, he DOES read Tolkien...


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

ETA

Ok.some like doodles some dont.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

rosemaryninja said:


> Well, I mean, he DOES read Tolkien...


Now that's a question...

Could Mr Ed have made it through all of LOTR?


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> ETA
> 
> Ok.some like doodles some dont.


I think this is where you'll get the standard 'we all like doodles, just not where they come from sometimes' response.



Laurelin said:


> Now that's a question...
> 
> Could Mr Ed have made it through all of LOTR?


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Ella'sMom said:


> Your posts have not offended me in the least!





Dakota Spirit said:


> I think you're ok, Jen. Even if there was some misunderstanding to begin with - it's (hopefully) been cleared up as of now. No need to worry


PHEW!



Ella'sMom said:


> Thank you for this post. Every time I log onto the breeders web page and read "Natasha had a new litter!" I cry. I swear it's at LEAST 4 times if not more since she had Ella. The poor dog always looks so tired and sad. That's no life. To me she is a money maker for this guy ....and I supported that.  I feel awful about it. I love Ella to death but kick myself for contributing to this. Ok...off to bed - I am getting upset just thinking of this poor dog being bred over and over again. So sad. Night all.


yeah.. But just love Ella, and know that you treat her a million times better than the breeder treats her mom. hug her for me, will ya?



Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't care what any of you say. I'm still against poo mixes...
> 
> That's why I bring at least three poo bags with me on Elsa's daily walks.


And we needed that curb


----------



## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

We have had a lot of hound mixes showing up in our shelter too.



fuzzie said:


> We had a weird influx of hounds lately, a litter of hound mixes a couple weeks ago, a litter of **** hounds and two beagle mixes now. It's odd.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

rosemaryninja said:


> Well, I mean, he DOES read Tolkien...


So true. It's really too bad Oinist is neutered.

We could pave the way in a new dog era. I can just see the pictures of five little baby Oinists's reading the latest fantasy novel. LOL

On a sidenote, if you loved the Lord of the Rings movies please read the books. Tolkien is my idol.


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> On a sidenote, if you loved the Lord of the Rings movies please read the books. Tolkien is my idol.


Seriously.
I actually just got done re-reading the series. Still as amazing as ever and despite how others feel, I also throughly enjoyed the movies.

Lol...this is SO off topic, though.


----------



## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

Quincy said:


> here is a photo of my Quincy, and he is 9 generations in development beyond first generation cross.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, Quincy is probably the first golden or labradoodle that I've seen and actually thought, wow, how adorable! Maybe because he's got the lab face instead of the poodle one, lol. He is cute though...and that's very surprising for me to say!



DobManiac said:


> We've ran out of new Dog-man issues. Now we have started to redebate the previous dog-man topics in the order of which the appeared.
> 
> But look forward to next week. I see a Oinist is Mr. Ed thread in or future.


LOL, too true.



rosemaryninja said:


> Well, I mean, he DOES read Tolkien...


LOL to that too. I am a big LOTR fan, why shouldn't dogs be too? I've often thought that it would be fun to do a LOTR themed litter if I were a breeder (no I'm not going to be a breeder, I just like thinking up litter themes)...so like Eowyn, Arwen, and Galadriel for the gals, and Frodo, Gandalf, Boromir, Legolas, and maybe Bilbo for the lads...could be fun lol.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

melgrj7 said:


> We have had a lot of hound mixes showing up in our shelter too.


It is the Westminster win as well as Underdog, I think. Hrm.



DobManiac said:


> On a sidenote, if you loved the Lord of the Rings movies please read the books. Tolkien is my idol.


I love both the books and the movies! 

By the way, I can totally see myself spending the same amount of money on a dog like Quincy or Oinest as I would on a purebred. They are so adorable. I would probably need to consciously stop myself from giving in to the temptation.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Seriously.
> I actually just got done re-reading the series. Still as amazing as ever and despite how others feel, I also throughly enjoyed the movies.
> 
> Lol...this is SO off topic, though.


Yes it's off topic, but at least it's a NEW topic.

I loved the movies, too. But after reading the books it just felt like so much was missing. I had to read the Hobbit too. I think I went to the only school in the country that doesn't list The Hobbit as required reading.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

One of the actors has my name,but he is a hobbitt*sad face*.LOL


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> Yes it's off topic, but at least it's a NEW topic.
> 
> I loved the movies, too. But after reading the books it just felt like so much was missing. I had to read the Hobbit too. I think I went to the only school in the country that doesn't list The Hobbit as required reading.


True - and a good one at that. Someone needs to start a LotR thread...
As for the missing stuff - I agree, there were parts taken out. However, I've always been of the mind that there is no way they could have included everything. Not only that, but you'd be hard pressed to create a movie rendition to rival the actual books. So I look at it almost as a separate thing all together. The movies were great, the books were great, no need to compare them 

Lol, Dom. Not only a hobbit, but Pippin. So you'd apparently be the one causing all the trouble were you in such a party.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Seriously.
> I actually just got done re-reading the series. Still as amazing as ever and despite how others feel, I also throughly enjoyed the movies.
> 
> Lol...this is SO off topic, though.


I liked both. Tried reading the Silmarillon but I can't get through it.

The name Laurelin has to come from somewhere, no? 



Dakota Spirit said:


> Lol, Dom. Not only a hobbit, but Pippin. So you'd apparently be the one causing all the trouble were you in such a party.


Dom is Merry, not Pippin! Pippin is Billy Boyd.

no... not a fangirl *whistles innocently*


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Amazing! A "doodle" thread that has lasted 8 pages and is _still_ open.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

It's a running joke in my circle of friends that I am actually a hobbit, because I am so short. They have very kindly christened me with the moniker 'Mister Frodo' and constantly make jokes about what a toilsome life I lead bearing the burden of the One Ring.


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Quincy said:


> .


That is one seriously cute pic. With a seriously cute dog!


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> True - and a good one at that. Someone needs to start a LotR thread...
> As for the missing stuff - I agree, there were parts taken out. However, I've always been of the mind that there is no way they could have included everything. Not only that, but you'd be hard pressed to create a movie rendition to rival the actual books. So I look at it almost as a separate thing all together. The movies were great, the books were great, no need to compare them


I agree, the movies by themselves are amazing. But I do find it funny. For example in the Fellowship, I can't help think that about the first 100 pages were completly removed. But the movies were a year long as I can't say they didn't try.

ETA: 

My sister told me that she fell asleap during the first movie. So I asked her at what part. She said,"You know the part where they start to hand out all those rings." Yea, thats the first five minutes. But she's a little special.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

DobManiac said:


> I agree, the movies by themselves are amazing. But I do find it funny. For example in the Fellowship, I can't help think that about the first 100 pages were completly removed. But the movies were a year long as I can't say they didn't try.


I can't say I missed Tom Bombadil at all, actually.

Or the.... 'and they walked for 100 pages through the trees'


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I can't say I missed Tom Bombadil at all, actually.
> 
> Or the.... 'and they walked for 100 pages through the trees'


True.

If something had to go, can't say I would have chosen different. I almost gave up on the book due to the first 100 pages.



BoxMeIn21 said:


> Amazing! A "doodle" thread that has lasted 8 pages and is _still_ open.


The only reason it's still open is because we aren't talking about doodles anymore.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> That is one seriously cute pic. With a seriously cute dog!


Thanks for the compliment 

Over the years I've had a number of dogs and I loved them all, even the one in my avatar who has a few Champion titles, here is an enlargement:-









.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

B-Line said:


> Dog Man,
> 
> One last thing. I did not enter into this debate to market PWD's. But I do feel your view on the breed, based on what you wrote, is somewhat incorrect.
> 
> Having said that, we need not discuss it here. We can save it for another time.


i would like to hear of your experience, and it can be here as well as anywhere else.

btw, about a year ago, i spoke to an old high school friend with two PWD's...one was very much the way i imagined them.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> The only reason it's still open is because we aren't talking about doodles anymore.


If anyone wants to talk about "Australian Labradoodles" well I'll reply 
.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I can't say I missed Tom Bombadil at all, actually.


i was just about to say the same exact thing.

that was one character that annoyed me to no end...and i just didn't fall for that ELDEST crap.
-------------------

i thought the best part of the book was the Council of Elrond.
i was upset that they did a very short version of it, and then spent ridiculous amounts of time fighting some internet trolls.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Dog-man, I wanted to send you a PM but you aren't set up to recieve them.

Don't you like to make friends.


----------



## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Thanks for the compliment
> 
> Over the years I've had a number of dogs and I loved them all, even the one in my avatar who has a few Champion titles, here is an enlargement:-
> 
> ...


Great pic! Beautiful dog.



DobManiac said:


> Dog-man, I wanted to send you a PM but you aren't set up to recieve them.
> 
> Don't you like to make friends.


Oh that was funny. Seriously!


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I liked both. Tried reading the Silmarillon but I can't get through it.
> 
> The name Laurelin has to come from somewhere, no?
> 
> ...


Pft, I would mess that up 
Lol, yeah I didn't make it through the Silmarillon either.

...and yeah, I'm not exactly crying over the lose of Tom either. From I've read, the absence of him was one of the biggest complaints I came across. I cannot honestly say that he added much to the story for me though. Truth be told, I skipped a few of his bits as they tended to lag on for page after page.


----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

We "Poodle People" get very upset about millers and bybs using our beloved breed to make $$$. And making money at the expense of the dogs is what most of them are all about. Some love dogs, but are simply ignorant, having no clue about genetics and how to breed to get what they're after - if they even know what they're after, other than making money off their dogs. Poodle breeders cringe when they see one of their dogs listed in the pedigree of these designer mixes with Poodles.

Oinest is adorable, and looks very much like my Beau when he is in dire need of a haircut and a shave. I actually prefer a little hair on Beau's face than shaved to the skin, whereas Maddy looks best with no hair on her face at all, just smooth, lovely skin (great for kissing!). Oinest's tail is a dead giveaway (and I'd be willing to bet his feet don't look anything like Poodle feet), but, other than that, he looks very Poodly in that clip. If what Oinest's breeder says she does is true, then she's rare. I have nothing "against" oinest, or any other dog who is here on earth. I do have issue with their breeders. I'm sure oinest is wonderful, and worth every bit as much to DogMan as Maddy and Beau are to me. 



> Someone should start making doodle rescues. There'll be plenty of poor dogs who'll need rescuing as the fad goes on.


I provide foster care for a Poodle rescue, and we frequently have mixes. We got (all at once) 80 Poodle/Mini Schnauzer dogs, or "Schnoodles," and had trouble adopting them out. Bad hair! Weird body shapes. Undesireable temperament. *Especially* when you're in the *market* for a *Poodle*. People seeking Poodles from Poodle rescues WANT Poodles because of who and what they are, including that wonderful hair. People who do breed foster care do so out of love and passion for the breed. Having seen some of the medical and genetic disasters resulting from crossing breeds, it sickens me that Poodles fall into the hands of these greedy (dirty word) who force litter after litter after litter out've their breeding stock.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

poodleholic said:


> Oinest is adorable, and looks very much like my Beau when he is in dire need of a haircut and a shave. I actually prefer a little hair on Beau's face than shaved to the skin, whereas Maddy looks best with no hair on her face at all, just smooth, lovely skin (great for kissing!).


I feel that all of us may have different views and opinions regarding "haircut and shave". And in regards to Poodles over many years I've notices quite a few different clips for the show ring.

Yes in Poodles around the world and over the years one can see various clips or trims in the show ring, even including such as seen via this link and I could provide other links:-
http://www.poodlesinaustralia.com/trims.html
.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> We "Poodle People" get very upset about millers and bybs using our beloved breed to make $$$. And making money at the expense of the dogs is what most of them are all about. Some love dogs, but are simply ignorant, having no clue about genetics and how to breed to get what they're after - if they even know what they're after, other than making money off their dogs. Poodle breeders cringe when they see one of their dogs listed in the pedigree of these designer mixes with Poodles.


Would "poodle people" rather see lower quality, non-standard dogs polluting the poodle gene pool? Doodles are rarely bred beyond the second generation, so any genetic flaws ends with the buyer.

Doodles are purchased primarily be middle class families, and doodles purchasers are becoming more and more sophisticated about health checks, puppy socialization requirements, etc. By necessity doodle breeders are responding to this. Go to the breeders section of the doodle forum and you will see many discussions about Pawsitive ID, Penn Hips vs. OFA, etc.

It is still an ongoing learning process but doodles are here to stay simply because they work out so well in the homes of Volvo driving soccer moms.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

MollyDoggie, I don't have a Volvo and none of my family are interested in Soccer. But before I bought my "Australian Labradoodle" I wanted to see hereditary disease health certificates going back for several generations on the pup that we were interested in, and in relation to my wife who gradually became allergic to dogs we wanted to see if she was allergic to the pup we were interested in so we tested, also we wanted a pup that could be easily trained to be an Assistance Service Dog. Well here is that pup grown up in Quincy, and my wife and I are very happy with him and he met all the criteria in our puppy selection process.









.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Quincy said:


> MollyDoggie, I don't have a Volvo and none of my family are interested in Soccer. But before I bought my "Australian Labradoodle" I wanted to see hereditary disease health certificates going back for several generations on the pup that we were interested in, and in relation to my wife who gradually became allergic to dogs we wanted to see if she was allergic to the pup we were interested in so we tested, also we wanted a pup that could be easily trained to be an Assistance Service Dog. Well here is that pup grown up in Quincy, and my wife and I are very happy with him and he met all the criteria in our puppy selection process.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Beautiful dog. In the US Aussidoodles are going for up to $5000, so I don't see many.

Here's my Molly:


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Hello Molly great to see you 

As for US Aussidoodles going for up to $5000, well I really don't know anything about Aussidoodles except maybe being a cross between an Australian Shepherd and a Poodle, maybe you can tell us some more about Molly
.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Now that's a question...
> 
> Could Mr Ed have made it through all of LOTR?


The _Hobbit_ and the trilogy, maybe. The _Simirilion_? I doubt it.


----------



## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Geez, this thread has really grown since last night when I switched my computer off. I've been reading through some of the replies and I'm starting to feel a bit ashamed of myself for spouting off with so much anger. I mean that is how I feel. Resentment towards people who treat dogs like commodities. But nobody on this board is really like that. And once again, I managed to target a controversial member who didn't deserve that at all in this instance. I think when I start to get that angry while posting a subject I need to stop and think for a bit before actually posting. I guess an apology loses it's strength when it has to be repeated several times, so hopefully for the last time, I'm sorry for being unfair to you, d-man, and sorry if I managed to offend anyone else with my early post.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

DobManiac said:


> Dog-man, I wanted to send you a PM but you aren't set up to recieve them.
> 
> Don't you like to make friends.


i like to hear from friends, but not from enemies, and i've got quite a few...leaving these anonymous messages in my reputation whatever..

from friends, i can read it on a post.

now, if you want a date, that's another story.



Max'sHuman said:


> so hopefully for the last time, I'm sorry for being unfair to you, d-man, and sorry if I managed to offend anyone else with my early post.


accepted...i have thick skin.

eventually, everyone will love me, even borzoimom.


----------



## micki (Jan 11, 2008)

Quincy said:


> Hello Molly great to see you
> 
> As for US Aussidoodles going for up to $5000, well I really don't know anything about Aussidoodles except maybe being a cross between an Australian Shepherd and a Poodle, maybe you can tell us some more about Molly
> .


this dog isn't a mix of Aussie shepherds and poodle but a multi generational labradoodle from Australia or bred like they do in Australia
not a one time first generation cross
http://www.australian-labradoodle.com/Why Australian.htm


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


> i was just about to say the same exact thing.
> 
> that was one character that annoyed me to no end...and i just didn't fall for that ELDEST crap.
> -------------------
> ...


See, we have something in common after all. 

He annoyed me to no end.

And RonE, I couldn't even make it through that book! I got halfway through and decided no more... lol


----------



## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

I guess I'm in the minority on this board...I missed Tom Bombadil...I love his character and the symbolism behind it. To each his/her own, I guess...


----------



## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

Lol...I have a friend who read The Simirilion...pretty impressive. I couldn't be that much of a Tolkien nut.

I also had a professor at UConn (a real nerd lol) who learned and spoke Elvish from reading the appendices...for that matter, he spoke Klingon too. That is a sign of someone with a serious problem lol! I love learning languages, but I prefer to learn ones that are actually of use (but then again, he is a Classics professor, and last time I checked you couldn't go off and speak Ancient Greek or Latin with anyone either).


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I dunno, Elvish is very beautiful sounding...

And it's practical, you could ignore the subtitles while watching the movie!

What I disagreed with in the movies were....

1) Glorifindel- where'd he go to?
2) Why did they insist on Faramir being tempted by the ring? That was so vital in the novels that he wasn't unlike his brother.
3) WHY did they kill Haldir! 

I think we're derailing the topic.


----------



## honeybear (Jul 8, 2007)

Quincy said:


> If your curious as to what an "Australian Labradoodle" looks like, well here is a photo of my Quincy, and he is 9 generations in development beyond first generation cross.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is Quincy by chance from the Rutland or Tegan lines?


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i like to hear from friends, but not from enemies, and i've got quite a few...leaving these anonymous messages in my reputation whatever..
> 
> from friends, i can read it on a post.
> 
> now, if you want a date, that's another story.


I figured it was something like that, but I really did just have something I wanted to tell you. Nothing hateful about it. I don't think it's wise to close yourself off so much. It's preventing you from becoming part of the DF family. But that is most likely one more thing that would have been better said over PM. 

Were you getting a lot of hate mail? I thought it was mostly the rep hits.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> What I disagreed with in the movies were....
> 
> 1) Glorifindel- where'd he go to?
> 
> ...


a few other complaints where the book was better (although the movies were awesome):

you didn't get the sense of the original greatness of Saruman and Denethor.

Gimli was made into a buffoon, whereas he was a gentleman Dwarf in the book.

Viggio was very good as Aragorn, but you didn't get the original sense of his "dark" look, with a gradual change in our perception of him.

on a positive note, Gollum and Gandalf were fantastic, and i finally was able to picture what Helm's Deep looked like.

i thought the people of Rohan looked too much like peasants.
one reviewer said that you could tell who was royalty (lke Eowyn) as that she bothered to brush her hair.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Geeze Loueeze... funniest thread I have read in awhile. dog-man.. I got to hand it to you.. the threads you participate in sure do help the DF on a serch engine!

As to doodles? I agree with CP. The issue is a breeder issue. If you had responsible breeders of the parent dogs (the golden retriever and the poodle used to make the cross) the cross would never occur. A responsible breeder would have re-po'd the dog for non compliance with the original sales contract requirement of not breeding and for not spaying the femal by 6-8 months old and the male by 8 months old. 

And as to LOTR... well I always dislike the movies because they tend to wreck the book, tho Gollum and Gandalf were good in the few clips I watched. 

I would rather read than watch TV tho I did enjoy the first Narnia movie a LOT. It was pretty close to the book and I just LOVED Aslan. Lonesome dove was a complete failure IMO.. the Hell Bitch was played by a GELDING!!! 

OK folks. Carry on. I am not going to subscribe to this thread as I don't want a clogged up inbox!


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

borzoimom said:


> I am soooooooo sick of this. Again- our HS comes out with the monthly list- again- same thing- most are doodle type mixes. Uh coat didnt come out like we thought-- sheds too much, too curly have to clip it all the time, too much energy, health problems ( up the wazzzzooooo..) or flat out- too much bounce for the family and its a mutt.. ( well duh- what did you think you were getting..).. Since not a breed, no rescues to call, others problems like matted or a mess or whatever..


I'm curious as to which VA HS put out this list. There does not appear to be a single doodle type dog available at ANY VA HS.
Here are the dogs available from all the VA HS that list their dogs:

Hanover Humane Society
http://search.petfinder.com/shelter...shelterid=VA118&sort=pet.Identifier&preview=1
No doodle type dogs

Humane society of Fairfax County
http://www.hsfc.org/dogs.php
No Doodle type dogs

Henrico Humane Society 
http://search.petfinder.com/shelter...ontact=&name=&shelterid=VA155&sort=&preview=1
No doodle type dogs

Humane Society of Warren County
http://search.petfinder.com/shelter...ontact=&name=&shelterid=VA199&sort=&preview=1
No doodle type dogs

Lynchburg Humane Society
http://search.petfinder.com/shelter...ontact=&name=&shelterid=VA176&sort=&preview=1
No doodle type dogs

Portsmouth Humane Society
http://www.portsmouthhumanesociety.org/animals/browse?Species=Dog
No doodle type dogs.


----------



## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

dog-man said:


> a few other complaints where the book was better (although the movies were awesome):
> 
> you didn't get the sense of the original greatness of Saruman and Denethor.


Agree here 100%, especially on Saruman. My favorite part of the whole trilogy is the Gandalf-Saruman show down at the end of 2T when Gandalf finally breaks him, gets the seeing ball, and takes over the white wizard's power...this was anticlimactic in the movie. Maybe I just wanted more because it is my favorite part of the book, but that could have been some seriously good drama with Ian McKellan and Christopher Lee.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Pai said:


> Cus Uno won the Westminster, most likely. I'm sure Beagles got a spike in popularity and demand after that.


That saddens me.. beagles are SO NOT for everyone. We have seen many beagles in our shelters here lately too. Too noisey, too hyper. Well.. DUH!

One question, are there many differences in the golen-oodle and the wheaten terrier? I have seen some doodles and mistook them for wheatens. i know wheatens are hyper, but dont doodles tend to be as well. I am not questioning doodles right now, I am asking if the two are THAT different?


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

micki said:


> this dog isn't a mix of Aussie shepherds and poodle but a multi generational labradoodle from Australia


Sorry micki, or should I be saying sorry to MollyDoggie. Anyway my fault for when MollyDoggie mentioned Aussidoodles well that threw my mind way off track.
.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

honeybear said:


> Is Quincy by chance from the Rutland or Tegan lines?


Quincy is from Rutland. But I think I remember seeing Tegan mentioned somewhere back in the pedigree, might have to check later on. Anyway, Rutland and Tegan are the Co-founders and Developers, plus they are mother and daughter.
.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

MollyDoggie said:


> I'm curious as to which VA HS put out this list. There does not appear to be a single doodle type dog available at ANY VA HS.
> Here are the dogs available from all the VA HS that list their dogs:
> 
> Hanover Humane Society
> ...


thanks for the research.

the claim that there are tons of goldendoodles and labradoodles filling up the shelters always seemed like a false claim.


----------



## MarleysGirl (Apr 11, 2008)

DobManiac said:


> But on a side note, if they do want to make these dogs a breed they really need to think of a better names. That's just my 2 cents.


I own a doodle and totally agree with you. The name is lame


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

dog-man said:


> thanks for the research.
> 
> the claim that there are tons of goldendoodles and labradoodles filling up the shelters always seemed like a false claim.


I haven't bothered to look at the links, but here in Texas, they don't get labeled 'doodle'. They get labeled either poodle mix or terrier mix (depending on the coat type.) and occasionaly GWP mix (particularly if they're particolor). If they're truly indeterminate (like Bonbon, a dog who was recently put down in Carrollton when he ran out of time- I didn't have the room to foster him- 8 month old, 25 pound white and cream flffy/wirey dog who was almost certainly SOME kind of doodle) was just labeled a mix, no specific breed, because there's just no way to tell. He was medium sized, not long-legged or short legged, slightly longer than tall, slightly heavier muzzle than a poodle.) 

He was housebroken but didn't walk nicely on a leash, and he did jump up on people. Needed some grooming manners. Very niec dog. But no one wanted him. He was a mutt, not a doodle, and unfortunately, it cost him his life.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> I haven't bothered to look at the links, but here in Texas, they don't get labeled 'doodle'. They get labeled either poodle mix or terrier mix (depending on the coat type.) and occasionaly GWP mix (particularly if they're particolor). If they're truly indeterminate (like Bonbon, a dog who was recently put down in Carrollton when he ran out of time- I didn't have the room to foster him- 8 month old, 25 pound white and cream flffy/wirey dog who was almost certainly SOME kind of doodle) was just labeled a mix, no specific breed, because there's just no way to tell. He was medium sized, not long-legged or short legged, slightly longer than tall, slightly heavier muzzle than a poodle.)
> 
> He was housebroken but didn't walk nicely on a leash, and he did jump up on people. Needed some grooming manners. Very niec dog. But no one wanted him. He was a mutt, not a doodle, and unfortunately, it cost him his life.


If the shelters start calling doodle-looking dogs _as_ such, I'll bet they get lots more interest in them. Majority of folks can't/won't notice any difference, I'll bet, and be jsut as happy with them as with a 'proven' doodle.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Pai said:


> If the shelters start calling doodle-looking dogs _as_ such, I'll bet they get lots more interest in them. Majority of folks can't/won't notice any difference, I'll bet, and be jsut as happy with them as with a 'proven' doodle.


I understand the premise, but the majority of shelters aren't education centers to begin with. So how would they educate an owner about the fad and then turn around and ask them to buy into a fad?


----------



## katiegro (May 6, 2008)

we live in the knoxville tn area - for 2 years we looked for a 'doodle' type dog at the local shelters - knox, anderson, roane counties - NEVER once did they have such a dog - we wanted something with little shedding [I don't believe there is a non-shedding dog ] - we also didn't want a dog over 20 pounds - we've downsized - after never finding what we were looking for we finally decided on a peekapoo that we found through a guy who works for us 

I am under no assumption about my puppy other than he is adorable and will be size that we are happy with. He is wonderful with our granddaughter [age 6] - which was another concern after she was viciously bitten in the face by her first dog - a shelter mutt - Take note, we spent weeks after the bite finding the dog a good home without children - rather than returning him to the shelter - which broke my granddaughter's heart [her grandad and I did not encourage getting rid of the dog but her mother insisted] 

IMHO purebreed or doodle - every dog deserves a loving home with responsible owners. I also think that irresponsible "breeders" of mixed breed dogs could not charge those exhorbitant prices if buyers refused to pay them. By "boycotting" the market the breeder in it for the money would be forced to stop breeding

Incidentally - when we got our puppy the woman gave us his "papers" to send in...I laughed and asked how do I "register" a mixed breed - she indicated that the "breed" is recognized by the CKC - whoever that is - I went to their website and there is no "official listing" for peekapoos - which didn't surprise me - and I got yet another giggle. 

I don't know the woman that we got our puppy from - she's a neighbor of an employee - but, we did feel comfortable with her as she didn't seem to be "just breeding" - Her dogs seemed well cared for and well loved.

Bottom line is Checkers seemed to be the right fit for us - we love him, our granddaughter loves him and everywhere he goes people stop to admire him. We're happy with our "poo"


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

katiegro said:


> we live in the knoxville tn area - for 2 years we looked for a 'doodle' type dog at the local shelters - knox, anderson, roane counties - NEVER once did they have such a dog - we wanted something with little shedding [I don't believe there is a non-shedding dog ] - we also didn't want a dog over 20 pounds - we've downsized - after never finding what we were looking for we finally decided on a peekapoo that we found through a guy who works for us
> 
> I am under no assumption about my puppy other than he is adorable and will be size that we are happy with. He is wonderful with our granddaughter [age 6] - which was another concern after she was viciously bitten in the face by her first dog - a shelter mutt - Take note, we spent weeks after the bite finding the dog a good home without children - rather than returning him to the shelter - which broke my granddaughter's heart [her grandad and I did not encourage getting rid of the dog but her mother insisted]
> 
> ...


Wonderful post. Your checkers is adorable. Many years of happiness with him.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


> a few other complaints where the book was better (although the movies were awesome):
> 
> you didn't get the sense of the original greatness of Saruman and Denethor.
> 
> ...


Oh I agree, but I did love the way the Rohirrim were portrayed. they're the descendants of peasants of Gondor, right? 

I loved Viggo as Aragorn. I will admit a lot was because I'm a girl and he's very attractive when covered in sweat, blood, and mud....  

Elana, you should watch the movies, they're awesome. Not the books, but still awesome. 

Dog-man, you need to watch out, I'm starting to like you. 

ETA: Dog-man, did you see the way they killed Saruman in the extended edition? It was way off.


----------



## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)
> "An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]


Quoting the OP from another thread. *head explodes from irony*


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


> thanks for the research.
> 
> the claim that there are tons of goldendoodles and labradoodles filling up the shelters always seemed like a false claim.


We get about one or two a month. Lots more small designer dog mixes, though. They happen into shelters often enough, but they're not nearly our biggest group of dogs coming in. They usually get adopted fairly fast, too. 

(Trying to stay on topic)


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Pai said:


> If the shelters start calling doodle-looking dogs _as_ such, I'll bet they get lots more interest in them. Majority of folks can't/won't notice any difference, I'll bet, and be jsut as happy with them as with a 'proven' doodle.


There are not even any "doodle looking" dogs in ANY VH HS published adoption list.

NOT A SINGLE ONE!

I personally believe this entire thread is based on fictitious information posted solely to generate doodle rage, and I challenge the OP to provide ANY evidence to the contrary.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I understand the premise, but the majority of shelters aren't education centers to begin with. So how would they educate an owner about the fad and then turn around and ask them to buy into a fad?


That's a really good point. The shelters are there for a reason, a reason that shouldn't exist. I would be taken aback if my shelter was like, "WE'VE GOT DOODLES! WE'VE GOT UGGLES!!" I would lose all respect for them probably.

They could maybe put something on the info stating- This girl is a poodle/golden mix and may have been bred on purpose by a breeder- she needs a loving home as much as any of the dogs here. or something like that.


----------



## katiegro (May 6, 2008)

Ella'sMom said:


> Wonderful post. Your checkers is adorable. Many years of happiness with him.



Thanks - we think so  -


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

katiegro said:


> Incidentally - when we got our puppy the woman gave us his "papers" to send in...I laughed and asked how do I "register" a mixed breed - she indicated that the "breed" is recognized by the CKC - whoever that is - I went to their website and there is no "official listing" for peekapoos - which didn't surprise me - and I got yet another giggle.
> 
> "


Just to answer your question and to make sure you looked up the right CKC.... Canadian Kennel Club is the CKC, but the one she was talking about is the Continental Kennel Club, which is essentially a bogus registry that'll register anything. Lots of petstore dogs you'll see come with CKC papers as people for some reason like to tout papers on their dog. They don't care what the papers say so long as they have them, lol.

Cause a dog with 'papers' is worth so much more than a dog without them....


----------



## honeybear (Jul 8, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Quincy is from Rutland. But I think I remember seeing Tegan mentioned somewhere back in the pedigree, might have to check later on. Anyway, Rutland and Tegan are the Co-founders and Developers, plus they are mother and daughter.
> .


My Australian labradoodle is from Rutland also. Who are his parents? Unfortunely the mother and daughter had a falling out last year and are no longer together. Tegan Park is no longer breeding.


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

I for one love the "doodle" name. And the other names - pugle, peekapoo, etc.

They are cute names. Now whether the breeders are immoral or not is an entirely different issue. But the names are adorable, imo.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MollyDoggie said:


> There are not even any "doodle looking" dogs in ANY VH HS published adoption list.
> 
> NOT A SINGLE ONE!
> 
> I personally believe this entire thread is based on fictitious information posted solely to generate doodle rage, and I challenge the OP to provide ANY information to the contrary.


Well, they do happen into shelters... not with an alarming frequency from what I see here though. I don't have any pics of the ones we've gotten in and all are adopted. But they do get surrendered for the same reasons the other dogs do... too big, had a baby, don't want the dog anymore, too hyper, sheds too much, chewed our couch, too expensive, etc etc...

The last one we got in, though, I couldn't tell if it was a large cockapoo or a small labradoodle. He was white and I think we decided to label him lab/poodle mix.



kelliope said:


> I for one love the "doodle" name. And the other names - pugle, peekapoo, etc.
> 
> They are cute names. Now whether the breeders are immoral or not is an entirely different issue. But the names are adorable, imo.


You have to admit some get a bit ridiculous.... Porkie, Jug, Shitese (lol, yeah I'm still laughing at that one)....


----------



## katiegro (May 6, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Just to answer your question and to make sure you looked up the right CKC.... Canadian Kennel Club is the CKC, but the one she was talking about is the Continental Kennel Club, which is essentially a bogus registry that'll register anything. Lots of petstore dogs you'll see come with CKC papers as people for some reason like to tout papers on their dog. They don't care what the papers say so long as they have them, lol.
> 
> Cause a dog with 'papers' is worth so much more than a dog without them....


well, Checker's papers were filed in the "round file"


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

katiegro said:


> well, Checker's papers were filed in the "round file"


The only reason I care about papers is to see how reputable the breeder is.... a reputable breeder should register their dogs somewhere decent- be it the AKC, UKC or a breed club like the ABCA or something...

Also, I compete in shows and things like that so in order to do so I need a registered dog. Or at least a purebred that I can ILP with the AKc. Most shows around here are AKC run. 

If you're not going to compete, then papers really mean nothing. You can have a dog with AKC papers like my poorly bred sheltie. Doesn't mean the dog was bred well at all. 

It's just kind of funny how many people think they really got something great simply because the dog has 'papers'.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

MollyDoggie said:


> I personally believe this entire thread is based on fictitious information posted solely to generate doodle rage


lol, 'doodle rage'. Sounds scary! 

I wouldn't doubt that a lot of the backlash against doodles is exaggerated to a degree, if simply because many people agree with each other and reinforce the negative feelings.

Personally, I care more about if a breeder is responsible about their dogs' health and welfare (thru health testing, ethical contracts and pup placement, etc) more than I care about _what _they're breeding. Unfortunately, most breeders are not ethical. And purebred/show breeders have their share of offenders, as well. 

Ignorant people keep giving such folks money, however, and that just perpetuates the problem. I think that fact is the main reason people are so upset about doodles -- because for years we fight to educate folks about good breeders, and this breed fad seems like it's just encouraging all the bad things more than the good.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

The thing about this argument- that because there are less-than-ethical show breeders as well- is that it just doesn't make sense. Just because one has problems, that means the other's problems are okay? 

I would bet that the proportion of ethical show breeders (compared to unethical show breeders) is significantly more skewed towards the ethical than the same ratio in the doodlebreeders.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> The thing about this argument- that because there are less-than-ethical show breeders as well- is that it just doesn't make sense. Just because one has problems, that means the other's problems are okay?


Who's saying that? Not me. That statement doesn't even make logical sense.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

If a person is breeding with the intention of making money on mongrels. Ethically he would be classified as a jerk. How could anybody trust anything that they say about health about anything. The modern PC/printers etc can make anything from health papers to death certificates etc. How could you possibly trust anything from that type of breeding program. My Opinion Only.

*Personally, I care more about if a breeder is responsible about their dogs' health and welfare (thru health testing, ethical contracts and pup placement, etc) more than I care about what they're breeding. Unfortunately, most breeders are not ethical. And purebred/show breeders have their share of offenders, as well.*


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Kind of a funny "doodle" story....... 

A few years ago I was with some friends and we were all talking about our dogs. One of my friend's husbands turned to me and (in all seriousness) says, "I have a golden doodle.....would you like to see it?" Maybe I had a few too many drinks that night but they had to peel me off the floor from laughing so hard. I don't know why but the doodle names crack me up.

Ella is a cockapoo. I swear I feel like I am saying something dirty every time I say it. "Mutt" sounds so much better. 

Ok carry on...just wanted to share my silly story and liven up the "doodle mess" in here.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Oh I agree, but I did love the way the Rohirrim were portrayed. they're the descendants of peasants of Gondor, right?
> 
> Dog-man, you need to watch out, I'm starting to like you.
> 
> ETA: Dog-man, did you see the way they killed Saruman in the extended edition? It was way off.


i knew the Rohirrim were of a lesser "stock" than Gondor, but i pictured them as higher stock than us.

i knew you would start to come around eventually.

i didn't see the extended edition.

oh, yeah, one other scene that made me throw up:
the end when the hobbits were saying goodbye to each other at the port.
it was too long, too emotional.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

wvasko said:


> If a person is breeding with the intention of making money on mongrels. Ethically he would be classified as a jerk.


Why are people who breed for the purpose of putting their dogs into shows, somehow considered automatically more moral? You could just claim that 'they're only satisfying their personal desires to win ribbons', after all. You can easily twist their motives into sounding selfish as well, if it suited your argument.

Whether a breeder is ethical in the treatment of their animals has nothing to do with whether they breed to participate in dog shows, or because they want to sell pets -- *either their actual, tangible behavior is responsible and humane, or it's not.* You can disagree with their 'materialist mindset' about their dogs all you want, but in the end, it's how the dogs are _actually treated_ that counts.

And don't get me wrong -- I think all these doodles are more of a bad idea than good. But I also don't buy into the whole 'only people who participate in dog shows have the moral right to ever breed dogs' shpiel, either. 

All toy breeds, for example were created for the purpose of being PETS. How would breeding them for pets be somehow morally suspect? Most people who own dogs, own them for PETS, and their primary goal is getting a dog that they feel fits with their needs and family. The average person's priorities about dogs is different than the average show breeder. And the majority sets the tone of the entire market. It's just reality.

Instead of sniping about mutts and purebreds and claiming one is more moral than another to breed, we need to focus on the REAL important thing here -- that breeders are treating their animals humanely, ensuring their health, and are being responsible. Everything else is just _personal opinion._ Only by _educating the consumers of pets_ can we improve the lives of dogs this country. _They're_ the ones that buy from pet shops and mills, and shady breeders because they don't know any better. If people knew better, it would be better off for ALL dog lovers, doodlers and non-doodlers alike, and for the dogs as well.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Pai said:


> Why are people who breed for the purpose of putting their dogs into shows, somehow considered automatically more moral? You could just claim that 'they're only satisfying their personal desires to win ribbons', after all. You can easily twist their motives into sounding selfish as well, if it suited your argument.
> 
> Whether a breeder is ethical in the treatment of their animals has nothing to do with whether they breed to participate in dog shows, or because they want to make quality pets -- either their behavior is responsible, or it's not.
> 
> And don't get me wrong -- I think all these doodles are more of a bad idea than good. But I also don't mindlessly buy into the whole 'only people who participate in dog shows have the moral right to breed dogs' shpiel, either.



hey, we finally agree on something.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pai said:


> Why are people who breed for the purpose of putting their dogs into shows, somehow considered automatically more moral? You could just claim that 'they're only satisfying their personal desires to win ribbons', after all. You can easily twist their motives into sounding selfish as well, if it suited your argument.
> 
> Whether a breeder is ethical in the treatment of their animals has nothing to do with whether they breed to participate in dog shows, or because they want to sell pets -- *either their actual, tangible behavior is responsible and humane, or it's not.* You can disagree with their 'materialist mindset' about their dogs all you want, but in the end, it's how the dogs are _actually treated_ that counts.
> 
> And don't get me wrong -- I think all these doodles are more of a bad idea than good. But I also don't buy into the whole 'only people who participate in dog shows have the moral right to ever breed dogs' shpiel, either.


Pai 
I, not once mentioned anything about dog shows/bathing beauty contests. I, prefer working dog trials with the dogs doing something that they were bred for originally.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

wvasko said:


> If a person is breeding with the intention of making money on mongrels. Ethically he would be classified as a jerk. How could anybody trust anything that they say about health about anything. The modern PC/printers etc can make anything from health papers to death certificates etc. How could you possibly trust anything from that type of breeding program. My Opinion Only.


I hear doodle breeders sell there unsold puppies to Chinese restaurants.



Talk about doodle rage.


I'd like to see just one doodle hating poster provide a single piece of evidence to back up a single statement that thay have made.


----------



## fuzzie (Jul 6, 2007)

The shelter links had a ton of hounds too. Not a single shelter was hound-free.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Is there ever a possibility of the doodle becoming a reconised breed in its own right?


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Pai
> I, not once mentioned anything about dog shows/bathing beauty contests. I, prefer working dog trials with the dogs doing something that they were bred for originally.


Unfortunately, the average dachshund and collie owner does not. And they outnumber folks like you. We need to deal with that reality, as much as we may wish it were different.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Is there ever a possibility of the doodle becoming a reconised breed in its own right?


I have heard that this could happen.


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

I am more into rescuing personally. But I have to say that I've met a fair number of doodles and all have been really great dogs. High energy, but cute and loveable.

I think doodles are here to stay. And as a result, those of you who don't like them because you think only irresponsible breeders breed them, what are your suggestions? Bottom line - those I know that have doodles LOVE them and will be sticking with the "breed". So what are their choices? 

Because I too work in rescue and don't see many larger poodle crosses. Small ones, yes, but the larger poodle/lab or poodle/golden crosses, no.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

dog-man said:


> hey, we finally agree on something.


I think everyone on this board, fundamentally, agrees that dogs should be treated humanely. We all want the best for all dogs, even though our opinions on what we should do to _ensure _that, may be different.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Pai, I don't think that it's just about showing, but for me, in addition to the health testing and everything ELSE I've already said, I think it's really, really important that the breeder is DOIGN something with their dogs. Something you can verify. That may mean field trials, that may mean dog shows. That may mean therapy work (although I hesitate to use that one, since I've known a lot of therapy programs that have weird screening regulations)- and it could mean that they hunt with their dogs. It's that someone OTHER than the breeder (and his or her friends) see and evaluate the dog's performance or characteristics. 

Kennel blindness is really easy to fall into, and talk is cheap. I see a LOT of corgi people bragging about how their dogs can work because they show 'herding instinct' by nipping at heels and 'herding' other dogs in play. (I mostly see this with BYBs, especially with the horsey set.) No, sorry. That's not herding insticnt. That's normal dog play behavior or brattiness, depending on who they are doing it to. If the dog can herd, I want to see them (or video of them) working, talk to people who've helped move stock on those days, or people who have bought puppies in the past that I *can* go watch work, if work is what I'm looking for. If it's a bird dog, I'd like to see those hunt test titles (a field trial dog isn't what most people want for a casual hunting partner), or failing that, go out to a field club with the owner and dog and watch him work. I want paper, or I want to see it myself. 

I don't know very many people- very many breeders- who don't love their dogs. But I don't trust people to be objective about their own dogs. That's why competition is important to me, since it's the easiest way to objectively grade a dog's abilities. That an owner cares enough to compete with their dog (because lord knows it's not cheap and takes quite a bit of time) also, to me, speaks well of the care they should be taking in other areas of the whole deal.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Ella'sMom said:


> I have heard that this could happen.


Hello Ellas mom,well i dont see why not.
The Bullmastiff was created by crossing English Mastiffs and Olde english bulldogs(the ratio being 60%EM and 40%OEB)

Its now a KC pooch.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Ella'sMom said:


> I have heard that this could happen.


There would need to be a club, that keeps a studbook, and that ensures the dogs breed true for several generations in order for it to count as a 'breed'. It takes organization and dedication by lovers of the breed for many years to get to that place. 

Unless that happens, it is really only random breedings of dogs without goal or pattern. I think that's the main reason why people take issue with doodles, because without organization of a breed club, it's just haphazard and that lets all kinds of abuses happen.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Is there ever a possibility of the doodle becoming a reconised breed in its own right?


i'm not rooting for it.

from what i understand:
it is harder to create a breed than the old days.

to create a breed, it takes a level of inbreeding that is no longer considered acceptable.

i would like to see some uniformity in size and non-shed trait.

but to be uniform enough to be accepted by the AKC, that goes too far for me.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i'm not rooting for it.
> 
> from what i understand:
> it is harder to create a breed than the old days.
> ...


Thats understandable,i thought the doodle was very established and had well bred lines already though.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i'm not rooting for it.
> 
> from what i understand:
> it is harder to create a breed than the old days.
> ...


If a breed standard is written that allows variety, it can be done. That initial standard needs to be very thoughtfully written and planned, to take into account all these factors.

Many breeds that are not currently recognized by major registries, actually do NOT want to be recognized, for that very reason. Because as long as only the original parent club controls all the decisions, it's easier for them to make the call to outcross or whatever they need to ensure the healthy development of a breed. Once you get into a fully closed registry like the AKC/UKC/CKC, and other sister clubs for that breed appear all over the world, that option because much harder to access and get approval on from all the club members. I totally respect breed clubs that would rather have their own private registry for their breed (like the Shiloh Shepherd), or just remain unrecognized, in order to control their breed's future interests better.

A dedicated, responsible breed club for Goldendoodles could only be a positive development, imo.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Is there ever a possibility of the doodle becoming a reconised breed in its own right?


There is a fairly good possibility that the Australian Labradoodle can become a breed.

Regular doodles are not breed past 2 generations because to do so would cause most of the puppies born to not have the desired doodle qualities.

To become a breed, many generations would have to be bred. Only a small percentage of the puppies would have the desirable qualities to continue breeding. The remaining puppies would have to be deposed of in some manner.

This is pretty much why new breeds are not being created these days. The process generates a huge number of undesirable and unwanted puppies.
By breeding only 2 or 3 generations, doodle breeders insure most of the puppies will have the desirable charasrtcs doodle buyers are looking for.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

honeybear said:


> My Australian labradoodle is from Rutland also. Who are his parents? Unfortunely the mother and daughter had a falling out last year and are no longer together. Tegan Park is no longer breeding.


Oh it's a small world on the internet, who knows maybe our dogs are related. Quincy is from a smaller sized line. Have to go offline shortly and I'll get back to later regarding Quincy's parents.

As you know Rutland and Tegan (mother and daughter) have been there for many years. It's not uncommon that mothers and daughters at times may have a falling out, but later could get back together again. Over my lifetime I've had several falling outs with my mother who at times treats me like a child, and gees I'm a grandfather.

I've seen on the Tegan website, "I am sad to announce that Tegan Australian Labradoodles is retiring", maybe the daughter has her personal reasons to retire. For years I bred and showed Cavalier King Charles Spaniels, and I no longer breed or show dogs, yes for various personal reasons people may decide to no longer breed dogs.
.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> I hear doodle breeders sell there unsold puppies to Chinese restaurants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is where you need to pull the wool out from over your eyes.

I challenge YOu to find one post where I have said I hate Doodles. I think doodles are adorable. I do not like how they came into this world. Greed. The same reason my beagle, Kody came into this world. Greed. I like doodles, but if it were not for greed, then they would not be around.

Or look at it this way- if there is ever a day where people are not oops littering all over the place, and BYBing so much, and puppy mills go away, and the shelters actually (GASP) DONT have to kill millions of dogs a year, and the ones who sadly end up in shelters find homes quickly, then I would be more than willing to accept a doodle breeder. One that does it properly, tests, and guarantees the pups. Because there is no reason the world should be deprived of doodles because people seem to like them, I just cant fathom the PEOPLE BREDING them for money. Yes they care about THEIR dogs, but not the ones dying in shelters.

And in regards to showing dogs, people arent saying its only okay to breed if you show, they are saying its ok to breed if your purpose is justified. Nobody is blaming the dogs. We are blaming the breeders. I have seen many an adorable doodle. I am sure they are FANTASTIC dogs. The people who bred them, first of all- got their pure goldens and poodles from BYB, (or they would have been on a s/n contract,) and did not care enough about anything except lining their pockets. Not ALL OF THEM. but for every Oinest breeder, there is at least one Ella breeder.

EDIT- I sounded very hostile. I am not being hostile, sorry. Just chit chatting


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Im starting to feel sorry for Doodle owners.
I'd be pissed off if i owned one only to have all the "doddle hating" going on.

I understand the mix breed issue,but they are here and seem to be making alot of owners happy.

Is it only BYB who sell Doodles in the US?


----------



## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

There is a dedicated group of breeders that have formed the *AUSTRALIAN LABRADOODLE CLUB OF AMERICA. **http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/* with the goal of someday having the labradoodle accepted as a true breed.

However this group has nothing to do with the so called breeders that are putting out first generation, lab/poodle mixes and selling them as labradoodles for outrageous prices.

They've still got a long way ahead of them and a lot of red tape to wade through, just as every other breed created from a mixture of other breeds has had to do.

BTW there isn't a breed in existence today that I can think of that started out with first generation dogs being bred for the show ring. It takes passion and dedication to the point of obsessiveness plus decades and many generations of dogs to create a new breed.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> *Im starting to feel sorry for Doodle owners.
> I'd be pissed off if i owned one only to have all the "doddle hating" going on.*
> 
> I understand the mix breed issue,but they are here and seem to be making alot of owners happy.
> ...


Dom, you could say that about any breed on this forum. The only reason now is because it's in THIS thread. No one here said they hate Doodles (from what I've read). I think most of the points on this thread are that we don't support the fact people buy mutts from "breeders" only to have them over breed their dogs and create more dogs to sit in shelters. Hints to so many being dropped off in Bmoms shelter. I'm nto sure why people think theswe doodles are "breeds" of dog. They're mutts, just like every other shelter dog. And for whatever reason many are ending up with rescues. Last year we had some one turn over a Labradoodle that they paid over $2500. Came from some breeder and for some reason they didn't want her any more.

Yes.

IMO there are no reputable "doodle" breeders. But again that's just me. I could go around saying I have a Malamorgi, but that would just be stupid. Unless it's as a joke and for fun, not actually saying it's a breed.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Ok i get it know,so alot of people are cheating.

Kind of like me getting an English mastiff and olde english bulldog and selling the pups as genuine Bullmastiffs?

Thanks Applesmom,that helped understand this a bit more.

ETA;got ya Ted


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Im starting to feel sorry for Doodle owners.
> I'd be pissed off if i owned one only to have all the "doddle hating" going on.
> 
> I understand the mix breed issue,but they are here and seem to be making alot of owners happy.
> ...


If by definition a byb is any breeder that doesn't breed to improve the breed, then doodles breeders are bybs, as there is no breed to improve. There is also no breed to harm.

Doodles are less likely to be bred in puppy mills or sold in pet stores for the same reason most large dogs aren't. Small dogs are more profitable and easier to sell in pet stores.

Doodle buyers tend to be affluent and not impulse buyers and breeders are responding to their growing sophistication about heath checks and ethical issues.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

This will sound dumb but i always thought they were bred for people with allergies?


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Thats understandable,i thought the doodle was very established and had well bred lines already though.


i don't know for sure, but i think Australia has some of the more developed lines.
expensive, though.

there have been different trends as well.

when i got Oinest, it was more common to breed a golden with a standard poodle.

now, smaller is getting more popular...mixing with a miniature.

also, to get better non-shed results, they cross a goldendoodle with a poodle.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Hope you dont mind me asking but where did u get Oinest dog-man?

There is a celeb who lives near me,his doodle was imported from Australia,i often see him on walks with my lot.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> This will sound dumb but i always thought they were bred for people with allergies?


The original Australian labradoodle was bred to be a hypoallergenic guild dog.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MollyDoggie said:


> Doodles are less likely to be bred in puppy mills or sold in pet stores for the same reason most large dogs aren't. Small dogs are more profitable and easier to sell in pet stores.
> 
> Doodle buyers tend to be affluent and not impulse buyers and breeders are responding to their growing sophistication about heath checks and ethical issues.


By doodles, do you mean big doodles? Cause I went in the petstore today while I was at the mall *gag* and I'd say about 80% of the puppies in there were poodle mixes of some sort.

There were two labradoodles, a litter of shcnoodles, a couple of chihuahuas, a corgi, a litter of pomapoos, and a litter of pekapoos that I can remember off the top of my head.

On the positive side, the prices aren't in the thousands like they were here three years ago. Seemed most pups were in the $400-$500 range.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> This will sound dumb but i always thought they were bred for people with allergies?


that was the original purpose...it was for a non-allergic seeing-eye dog.
it didn't work out for seeing eye, but it got noticed as a special dog, with interesting potential for non-shed.

the people in Australia used some scientific methods to make the non-shed more successful.

however, just mixing any healthy golden with a healthy poodle will have different results in each litter itself, and from litter to litter.

the curly coated in the litter are less likely to shed...Oinest had a curly coat.

from a non-scientific poll, it has been claimed that even the ones who shed, it is to a much lesser degree than a golden.

to me, a goldendoodle is for someone who loves goldens, but you would prefer less shedding.

if you can't handle shedding at all, then you should go to an established breed, IMHO.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh, today I ran into a guide dog. He was a labradoodle. 

I thought it somewhat relevant to the thread, lol.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> Hope you dont mind me asking but where did u get Oinest dog-man?
> 
> There is a celeb who lives near me,his doodle was imported from Australia,i often see him on walks with my lot.


Oinest is from Washington state...my son found the breeder on an internet site.


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

I agree with Curbside's like...1st post in this thread..about how this thread has no point and it isn't just a doodle problem. Or something like that


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Oh, today I ran into a guide dog. He was a labradoodle.
> 
> I thought it somewhat relevant to the thread, lol.


I came across one at our adoption last weekend. A lady walking by stopped to talk to me. Her Labradoodle was adorable.. I have nothing at all against them. It's when some one says "i've done so much research and got him from a really good/reputable breeder" that kills me on the spot.


----------



## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

> Doodles are less likely to be bred in puppy mills or sold in pet stores for the same reason most large dogs aren't. Small dogs are more profitable and easier to sell in pet stores.


 Could you please tell this to my local petstore? They ALWAYS have large breed dogs for sale...Rotties, Weims, Goldens, Labs, Akitas, Mastiffs, Saints, Am. Bulldogs, Dogue de Bordeauxs, Boxers....there small breeds normally consist of Schnauzers, Yorkies, Bostons, and Basset Hounds. Although, more recentally, there have been much more poodle mixes flooding the store (particularly Maltese and Cocker Spaniel crosses). 

And funny....on alot of the puppymill video footage I've seen, there are equal amounts of small and large breeds up for sale.

I don't think large breed dogs are any less predispositioned from puppymills than small breeds are. 



> If by definition a byb is any breeder that doesn't breed to improve the breed, then doodles breeders are bybs, as there is no breed to improve. There is also no breed to harm.


 That is the point. _There is no breed to improve_. Why breed cross breeds when there are millions of cross breeds througout the country in shelters? And, in case someone says, "Why breed purebreds when there are millions across the country in shelters?" I also think that unless you want a dog for a specific purpose, adopt. 
Once we no longer have dogs dying in shelters across the country do to irresponsible breeding practices, then maybe it wouldn't be such a big deal to breed mutts. As it is, however, that is a wish, not reality. 

If breeders of these "doodle" mixes want to create a true breed and will go about it responsibley, then I really don't have that big of a problem. However, just crossing a Poodle with whatever comes along and claiming it is the "perfect dog" I do have a problem with. 



> Doodle buyers tend to be affluent and not impulse buyers and breeders are responding to their growing sophistication about heath checks and ethical issues.


 That is a very broad generalization. That would be like me saying, "Purebred buyers tend to be affluent and not impulse buyers and breeders are responding to their growing sophistication about health checks and ethical issues." That would be a load of bull for me to say, and it doesn't work with Doodles either. 
I'm sure my friend who wants a "Maltipoo" really thought about her decision and about what breeder she should buy from. *snort* No, she wants one because they are small, cute, and are the "in" thing to have. 

It all boils down to breeding practices. As long as there are wonderful dogs dying by the day in shelters, I don't think most of dogdome will be thrilled to have new breeds being created and BYBs clogging up the shelters. Once irresponsible breeding is no more and the shelter problem dwindles, then why not breed cross breeds as long as it is being done responsibley? _But until that time_, I will never condone an irresponsible breeder and "health checks" and "ethical issues" isn't going to make me slap a breeder on her back and say, "Well done!"


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

dog-man said:


> Oinest is from Washington state...my son found the breeder on an internet site.


Thanks dog-man



iwantmypup said:


> I agree with Curbside's like...1st post in this thread..about how this thread has no point and it isn't just a doodle problem. Or something like that


LOL,makes sense Ali.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> I came across one at our adoption last weekend. A lady walking by stopped to talk to me. Her Labradoodle was adorable.. I have nothing at all against them. It's when some one says "i've done so much research and got him from a really good/reputable breeder" that kills me on the spot.


So... question...

What do you all think about Doodles as guide dogs?

I ask because honestly, 90% of the labradoodles I've met were guide dogs in training. 

The guide dog program on campus runs off of donated pups and about 50-60% of those are labradoodles. The others are labs. Both breeds seem to do really well and I know the success rate with the puppy raisers is really high. I wanted to participate myself, but you have to live in a dorm alone and just... meh. Maybe one day later.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> It's when some one says "i've done so much research and got him from a really good/reputable breeder" that kills me on the spot.


well, i did a ton of research.
i doubt there are too many novices out there who did even close to what i did.

and, i think my breeder was good and reputable.

there is a special definition of "reputable" by purebred breeders, that i would not claim my breeder did all those things.
i would still call her reputable, myself.

however, there are goldendoodle breeders that do all the heath checks that reputable purebred breeders do.

but, some people just can't face that reality.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

It's interesting, because MOST (not all) of the owner-trained doodles that were purchased as SDs that I have met have been flakey at best, and many, many of them have washed out for health problems. (They're about on par with the shelter dogs (which I don't track by breed in my main record- I'd have to go through my notes. I like statisics, if you can't tell ). I think this mostly has to do with the sheer numbers of irresponsible breeders versus the very carefully selected and screened breeding programs that guide schools use- starting, for one thing, with GOOD parent stock- and that must make a HUGE difference.

It's worth pointing out that the school in Australia who did the crosses in the frist place discontinued the project as they found they were not achieving what they wanted.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> So... question...
> 
> What do you all think about Doodles as guide dogs?
> 
> r.


that's interesing.
i thought they were failures at that.

my mother has a close friend who went blind.

she has a labrador/golden cross.
fantastic dog.

i heard that this cross has become popular as a guide dog.
has the best traits of labs and goldens...just right for a guide dog.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> So... question...
> 
> What do you all think about Doodles as guide dogs?
> 
> ...


I have nothing against doodles as guide dogs. Again I have nothing against the breed(s) and have met several that were VERY nice dogs. That's not my problem. I think any dog should be able to be a service dog; lab, labradoodle, APBT, what ever! I know quite a few dog with their CGC including mutts, purebreeds, even bullies. We have one in our program right now up for adoption.

Just don't say it's a *breed* or that you got him from a reputable breeder. You didn't save him from a byb if you put the money back in their hands. Plain and simple.


----------



## honeybear (Jul 8, 2007)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> I came across one at our adoption last weekend. A lady walking by stopped to talk to me. Her Labradoodle was adorable.. I have nothing at all against them. It's when some one says "i've done so much research and got him from a really good/reputable breeder" that kills me on the spot.


Comments like this that get me. I did my research for two years and I bought my Australian labradoodle from the original person who started the breed. She is from Australia she is a great lady has been showing and breeding dogs for more than half of her life. She does have a standard for her dogs, has health certificates, has a health guarantee, gives endless advice when asked, puppies do not leave until they are at least ten weeks, promotes a raw diet, does tepermentant testing with all the pups, interviews prospective buyers and checks references, does not over breed her dogs. Her bitches breed once a year and are only breed until they are 3 or 4. The list goes on and on. So to say there are really no good/reputable doodle breeders out there is bogus.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dogstar said:


> It's interesting, because MOST (not all) of the owner-trained doodles that were purchased as SDs that I have met have been flakey at best, and many, many of them have washed out for health problems. (They're about on par with the shelter dogs (which I don't track by breed in my main record- I'd have to go through my notes. I like statisics, if you can't tell ). I think this mostly has to do with the sheer numbers of irresponsible breeders versus the very carefully selected and screened breeding programs that guide schools use- starting, for one thing, with GOOD parent stock- and that must make a HUGE difference.
> 
> It's worth pointing out that the school in Australia who did the crosses in the frist place discontinued the project as they found they were not achieving what they wanted.


Hm... the first doodle I met on campus 3 years ago passed and moved on to advanced training. Passed that last year and was placed with a young boy, I believe...

He was massive and chocolate and his name was Levi. Really awesome dog....

There's a dog here training now that looks almost identical to him. He's the one I ran into today. 

I don't know why exactly the program here uses labradoodles over anything else, but they do. And they seem to work.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

honeybear said:


> Who are his parents?


Mum:- Rutland Billy-Jo
Dad:- Rutland Yogi Bear
.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

honeybear said:


> Comments like this that get me. I did my research for two years and I bought my Australian labradoodle from the original person who started the breed. She is from Australia she is a great lady has been showing and breeding dogs for more than half of her life. She does have a standard for her dogs, has health certificates, has a health guarantee, gives endless advice when asked, puppies do not leave until they are at least ten weeks, promotes a raw diet, does tepermentant testing with all the pups, interviews prospective buyers and checks references, does not over breed her dogs. Her bitches breed once a year and are only breed until they are 3 or 4. The list goes on and on. So to say there are really no good/reputable doodle breeders out there is bogus.


That's fine and you, like I, can state my opinion open and free. Breeding mutts, no matter how well they're cared for is not reputabel. Breeding a mutt, is breeding a mutt.

You love your dog, just like I love my dog. That's all that matters.


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> I have nothing against doodles as guide dogs. Again I have nothing against the breed(s) and have met several that were VERY nice dogs. That's not my problem. I think any dog should be able to be a service dog; lab, labradoodle, APBT, what ever! I know quite a few dog with their CGC including mutts, purebreeds, even bullies. We have one in our program right now up for adoption.
> 
> Just don't say it's a *breed* or that you got him from a reputable breeder. You didn't save him from a byb if you put the money back in their hands. Plain and simple.


Which brings me back to my original question which remains unanswered:



> I think doodles are here to stay. And as a result, those of you who don't like them because you think only irresponsible breeders breed them, what are your suggestions? Bottom line - those I know that have doodles LOVE them and will be sticking with the "breed". So what are their choices?


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> I have nothing against doodles as guide dogs. Again I have nothing against the breed(s) and have met several that were VERY nice dogs. That's not my problem. I think any dog should be able to be a service dog; lab, labradoodle, APBT, what ever! I know quite a few dog with their CGC including mutts, purebreeds, even bullies. We have one in our program right now up for adoption.
> 
> Just don't say it's a *breed* or that you got him from a reputable breeder. You didn't save him from a byb if you put the money back in their hands. Plain and simple.


These dogs are bred on purpose for the guide dog program. As are labs and as dog-man mentioned one really popular cross is lab x golden. We don't use rescue dogs. 

There's also a big difference in work that your average service dog does versus a guide dog. Also a lot different failure rate and things like that. The general idea is to create the best guide dog. Breed is irrelevant.

Now, why this particular group feels the doodles do this best is beyond my understanding. But they obviously have much more experience in this field than I do.

Btw, for those interested, the doodles used here are all multigen crosses. 

I know Jaylie has also talked about guide dog doodles in other programs as well.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

First, I didn't read every post..got to about the 7th or 8th page and felt if I wanted to go further, I'd need hip waters.

I have seen this arguement on so many other boards...all in the name of EDUMACATION.....palease! These threads are almost always sprinkled with just enough insult and condescension to owners of *insert breed or "mutt"* to be obvious. 

I own 4 purebred dogs, 3 of which were the product of show breeders who severely neglected them (breeder rescues), and one LABRADOODLE (yup, that's what she is) from Australia. 

I made a choice to go outside of my country to find a breeder who health tested to the hilt, bred for therapy and had lines long enough to be predictable. What I got was a dog that I could not have 'designed' better had I created her in my dreams. I'm still in contact with her breeder, though she no longer breeds, and would do it all again given the chance. I have never heard a word from the "breeders" of my purebred dogs, whos parents were shown and titled..

I have met wonderful PWD's and adore standard poodles but to compare my Labradoodle to either would be like comparing the standard poodle to the PWD. There is a difference just like there is between various spaniels, herding breeds..etc. I would no more ask a PWD owner why they didn't just get a standard poodle than I would excuse one of them asking me why I didn't just choose a poodle or PWD myself.

I train over 1000 dogs/year in both private training and classes and have met countless Labradoodles. Anyone who says that there is nothing special about them and that they can't tell them apart from other dogs is simply pulling their facts from....well, you know where.

Yes, there are some horrible people out there breeding them for profit JUST LIKE MANY PUREBRED BREEDERS do. It's disgusting, no one can argue that. The funny thing is, I work in rescue and am on the foster list for a large 'doodle' poodle mix rescue and have never recieved one call in over 4 years. My shelters are filled with everything from purebred dogs to mixed breeds, some more common than others but very few poodle mixes and not one Labradoodle to be seen.

I know that rescue populations are different in other areas but I'm on petfinder all the time and to even suggest that this 'fad' is the big problem in shelters is simply false. No dog should be in a rescue. All breeders should be responsible for ALL of the puppies that they put on this earth.

All of my future dogs will be and many of my past dogs have been rescues, that doesn't change the fact that I am very proud of my girl.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

kelliope said:


> Which brings me back to my original question which remains unanswered:


Go and look at a shelter. Hell just go *LOOK*. Every time I've gone to a shelter I've seen at lease one "doodle", most of the time more. But then again i'm a rescue mom; pure breed and mutt, I'll never get a breeder do. I have the utmost respect to quality breeders/ reputable breeders. And if I wanted to show, qualify, title my dog I would go pay top dollar for a dog. But since I have no plans to do that any time in the future and could care less about background, upbringing, blood line, I will stick with the shelter dogs. 

Ted is a Purebred Shih Tzu that was a stray. While he has his problems he is a wonderful dog with a great coat, teeth, skin, training has gone very well etc. All that I could ask for in a *PET*. I'm also not afraid of where the dog comes from. When I got Teddie he had the worst trust issues I had ever seen. He was turning two and had gone through horrible situation after horrible situation. Now that i've had him a year he's over come pretty much everything. I don't need to get a dog with a clean slate to be happy. 

That's all I have to say. Do what you want. Just like everything else; one person isn't going to change the world.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

mydogspot said:


>


Sophie!?


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

This thread is not to " bash the type" but *bash the fad*.. Most people have nooooo clue at all that the coat can be different, they can have dander or need to be trimed like a poodle, that without health testing they can have the biggest genetic mess of problems as breeding two breeds that have serious genetic problems- but since its a mix, do not both to health test parents. 
DOGS SHOULD NEVER be a fad! Its a 12+ year committment- and not set up to a fad... 
I have no doubt the doodle owners love their dogs. My question stands- how did you find your breeder? What was the parents etc tested for genetics.. Or if the dog doesnt show up " allergy free' how many are tossed into shelters??? Leaving the shelters holding the bag and make the awful decissions..


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

mydogspot said:


> I made a choice to go outside of my country to find a breeder who health tested to the hilt, bred for therapy and had lines long enough to be predictable. What I got was a dog that I could not have 'designed' better had I created her in my dreams. I'm still in contact with her breeder, though she no longer breeds, and would do it all again given the chance. I have never heard a word from the "breeders" of my purebred dogs, whos parents were shown and titled..
> 
> I have met wonderful PWD's and adore standard poodles but to compare my Labradoodle to either would be like comparing the standard poodle to the PWD. There is a difference just like there is between various spaniels, herding breeds..etc. I would no more ask a PWD owner why they didn't just get a standard poodle than I would excuse one of them asking me why I didn't just choose a poodle or PWD myself.
> 
> ...


your dog is incredibly beautiful and cute...i know that doodle attitude so well.

and your post was great.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Sophie!?


Hey!!!! You've heard my song and dance about this subject before....LOL!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

mydogspot said:


> Hey!!!! You've heard my song and dance about this subject before....LOL!


I could recognize that pretty puppy (and that neon orange ball) anywhere!

Yep! We seem to go in circles and circles on these discussions. All dog boards are the same, lol.

I'm so glad to see you around! You'll have to post some new pics of your crew.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> It's worth pointing out that the school in Australia who did the crosses in the frist place discontinued the project as they found they were not achieving what they wanted.


That's interesting, did you check with that school in Australia, well I just did a search and found the following from this link:-
http://www.guidedogsvictoria.com.au/faq/guide-dog-faq/

Guide Dogs Victoria
Guide Dog FAQ's

What breeds of dogs are used? 
In Australia, we use mainly Labradors. We have also crossed Labradors with Golden Retrievers, Curly-coat Retrievers and more recently, Standard Poodles, to produce the now well-known Labradoodle. In response to special requests, Guide Dogs Victoria may source other breeds, including German Shepherds from overseas Guide Dog Schools with whom Guide Dogs Victoria has a special relationship.

What are the reasons for experimenting with other breeds?
Some clients have a preference for a certain breed, and we try to meet their needs. The Labradoodle was bred by Guide Dogs Victoria particularly for people who have an allergy to dog hair. The aim was to breed from Guide Dog Victoria's Labrador brood bitches (which have an excellent temperament for Guide Dog work) with the Poodle (which does not shed its coat) to produce a dog that may be more suitable for people with allergies to dog hair. 

And I see today that they maybe exporting labradoodles under some contract, and the following from this link:-
http://www.eyeofthepacific.org/guidedogs.htm

Eye of the Pacific Guide Dogs & Mobility Services Inc
Guide Dog Program

We are contracted with Guide Dog Association of Victoria, Melbourne, Australia (GDVA) and Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind (RNZFB). GDVA scientifically breed and train Labrador retrievers. They also breed and train labradoodles (cross between a Labrador retriever and standard poodle). The labradoodles are dogs given to individuals who have allergies to dog hair. RNZFB provides a large stock of Labrador retrievers. However, they also provide a wide selection of cross breeds.
.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

kelliope said:


> Which brings me back to my original question which remains unanswered:


It's really not a doodle breeder versus other breeds problem. Or a this breed is staying and this one should go problem. It is what it has always been, a breeder organization problem...a lack of checks and balances in the breeding community. 

I've always said professional breeders should be licensed like other professions are. As a registered mechanical engineer, I can't engineer projects at free will. I have to do so incorporating the state and local codes. I've always felt breeders shouldn't breed unless they incorporate breed codes. 

Is it a practical solution? I don't know, but even mechanical codes are "living". I don't see why that model wouldn't fit breeders even for rare and unique breeds. But the excuses from breeders seem endless the minute an idea infringes on their practice. So I can't imagine a communal will that will rise up to organize the profession.

This would not only help to resolve the BYB issue, and the puppy mill issue, but it would also give breeders power to control laws like those posed for spay/neuter requirements.

Too tough for breeders to work through though, and the reason for my mantra...all breeders are irresponsible until proven otherwise.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

borzoimom said:


> This thread is not to " bash the type" but *bash the fad*.. Most people have nooooo clue at all that the coat can be different, they can have dander or need to be trimed like a poodle, that without health testing they can have the biggest genetic mess of problems as breeding two breeds that have serious genetic problems- but since its a mix, do not both to health test parents.
> DOGS SHOULD NEVER be a fad! Its a 12+ year committment- and not set up to a fad...
> I have no doubt the doodle owners love their dogs. My question stands- how did you find your breeder? What was the parents etc tested for genetics.. Or if the dog doesnt show up " allergy free' how many are tossed into shelters??? Leaving the shelters holding the bag and make the awful decissions..


It might surprise you to know that many Labradoodle owners did their research much the same way I expect that you'd hope potential borzio owners do theirs. 

It's not simply about loving our dogs. I can only speak for myself but I am the last person to talk to about dogs thrown into shelters. A good portion of my life is spent dealing with throw aways so I know the state of shelters and rescues upside down and backwards. It's unwise to assume that owners of other mixes and purebred dogs are responsible yet Labradoodle owners are not. You may want to do some research yourself on what is happening with the reputable side of this issue.

Did you know that the only Labradoodle breeders that I would ever recommend actually do more health testing than most purebred breeders do? Not all of us are running off to the nearest BYB and buying a F1 dog. As a matter of fact, I look into the breeding of every Labradoodle that comes into my classes and there are more that come from health tested parents than not.



Laurelin said:


> I could recognize that pretty puppy (and that neon orange ball) anywhere!
> 
> Yep! We seem to go in circles and circles on these discussions. All dog boards are the same, lol.
> 
> I'm so glad to see you around! You'll have to post some new pics of your crew.


I very rarely have time to post anywhere anymore. It's nice to see you here Laurelin!



Curbside Prophet said:


> It's really not a doodle breeder versus other breeds problem. Or a this breed is staying and this one should go problem. It is what it has always been, a breeder organization problem...a lack of checks and balances in the breeding community.
> 
> I've always said professional breeders should be licensed like other professions are. As a registered mechanical engineer, I can't engineer projects at free will. I have to do so incorporating the state and local codes. I've always felt breeders shouldn't breed unless they incorporate breed codes.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY!! We're whistlin the same tune....


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

TeddieXRuxpin said:


> Go and look at a shelter. Hell just go *LOOK*. Every time I've gone to a shelter I've seen at lease one "doodle", most of the time more. But then again i'm a rescue mom; pure breed and mutt, I'll never get a breeder do. I have the utmost respect to quality breeders/ reputable breeders. And if I wanted to show, qualify, title my dog I would go pay top dollar for a dog. But since I have no plans to do that any time in the future and could care less about background, upbringing, blood line, I will stick with the shelter dogs.
> 
> Ted is a Purebred Shih Tzu that was a stray. While he has his problems he is a wonderful dog with a great coat, teeth, skin, training has gone very well etc. All that I could ask for in a *PET*. I'm also not afraid of where the dog comes from. When I got Teddie he had the worst trust issues I had ever seen. He was turning two and had gone through horrible situation after horrible situation. Now that i've had him a year he's over come pretty much everything. I don't need to get a dog with a clean slate to be happy.
> 
> That's all I have to say. Do what you want. Just like everything else; one person isn't going to change the world.


Hello! I have volunteered at the shelter for many years. Both my current (and ALL my past) dogs are rescues. I have NEVER purchased ANY dog - all have been in dire need of a home. I am simply asking because I know many people that are really into their doodles. And FWIW, in my area I have never seen a larger doodle (lab/poodle or golden/poodle). I have seen cockapoos, peekapoos and just plain poos, but not a doodle.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

kelliope said:


> Hello! I have volunteered at the shelter for many years. Both my current (and ALL my past) dogs are rescues. I have NEVER purchased ANY dog - all have been in dire need of a home. I am simply asking because I know many people that are really into their doodles. And FWIW, in my area I have never seen a larger doodle (lab/poodle or golden/poodle). I have seen cockapoos, peekapoos and just plain poos, but not a doodle.


Hold on, hold on HOLD ON! 

Then obviously this doesn't apply to you.


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Oh. Well you quoted me.

But in working with rescues, I know what to tell people who are looking for a specific breed, i.e., go to a breed specific rescue or a reputable breeder. But if someone is looking for a doodle dog, what do I tell them? Some are getting a doodle no matter what. For now I just go through my ususal spiel about how you might get the worst of both breeds, the breeders are irresponsible, yada, yada, yada.

But I don't really feel like they care. It seems once someone has their mind set on doodle there is no disuading them. So, part of me wishes the breed would become a breed just so I would know where to send people looking for one without buying from a BYB or mill.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Hope you dont mind me asking but where did u get Oinest dog-man?
> 
> There is a celeb who lives near me,his doodle was imported from Australia,i often see him on walks with my lot.


whos the famous guy? (oh come on you were all wondering too!)



dog-man said:


> well, i did a ton of research.
> i doubt there are too many novices out there who did even close to what i did.
> 
> and, i think my breeder was good and reputable.
> ...


I think there are different levels of doodle breeders, yes. I have heard of some that seem wonderful. Same goes for purebred breeders. I dont doubt that there are better doodle breeders than the breeder who bred my purebred beagle, Kody. IDK the price is the number one thing that bothers me. yes I know you can spend whatever you want, but I just want to know how the breeders justify the price. Purebred breeders justify the price with numerous tests, shots, and titled parents that have PROVEN themselves. But I see both sides of the spectrum I really do.

I also agree with a lot of people that say any breeder breeding doodles cannot possibly be a GOOD breeder, or they wouldnt breed doodles.

You cant blame someone pouring thousands of dollars into their dogs, testing, titling, working, showing etc, and finding their puppies loving homes, getting angry at doodle breeders finding THEIR puppies loving homes, but lining their pockets first and foremost. I know there are good ones, but we will continue to overlook the good ones until the shelter problem is gone. Sad, yes, but true.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> whos the famous guy? (oh come on you were all wondering too!)


I don't know about the mucky muck that he was talking about but I was shocked to see that Tiger Woods had stolen my dog...LOL


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

kelliope said:


> Oh. Well you quoted me.
> 
> But in working with rescues, I know what to tell people who are looking for a specific breed, i.e., go to a breed specific rescue or a reputable breeder. But if someone is looking for a doodle dog, what do I tell them? Some are getting a doodle no matter what. For now I just go through my ususal spiel about how you might get the worst of both breeds, the breeders are irresponsible, yada, yada, yada.
> 
> But I don't really feel like they care. It seems once someone has their mind set on doodle there is no disuading them. So, part of me wishes the breed would become a breed just so I would know where to send people looking for one without buying from a BYB or mill.


I quoted you because I was answering YOUR question. My reply wasn't directed at you, but just answering your question. I'm sorry if it came of differently.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I love your smooth brussels!


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

mydogspot said:


> I don't know about the mucky muck that he was talking about but I was shocked to see that Tiger Woods had stolen my dog...LOL


Oh and I think they are spoiling the dog 
.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> whos the famous guy? (oh come on you were all wondering too!)


HA HA,Jenn u wouldnt know him his an English comedian


mydogspot said:


> I don't know about the mucky muck that he was talking about but I was shocked to see that Tiger Woods had stolen my dog...LOL


I'd like to steal his wife


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

Mr Pooch said:


> HA HA,Jenn u wouldnt know him his an English comedian
> 
> 
> I'd like to steal his wife


You Dawg! I'm sure there's a line up of wife nappers for her..


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> I'd like to steal his wife


Now settle down Mr Pooch, who knows just maybe Tiger might be reading this topic 
.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I love your smooth brussels!


Thanks! That's Lola, she's my puppymill special. I participated in a PM seizure and couldn't let her go, she belonged with us and I knew it the moment I saw her....and so did Amos!



















I love all of your dogs too. I've always wanted a papillon. How old is your eldest sheltie? I'm partial to the older dogs like most people are to puppies..


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

mydogspot said:


> You Dawg! I'm sure there's a line up of wife nappers for her..





Quincy said:


> Now settle down Mr Pooch, who knows just maybe Tiger might be reading this topic
> .


HA HA,i'll challenge him to a game of golf for her


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> HA HA,i'll challenge him to a game of golf for her


I think she may not appreciate being some sort of prize to be won over a golf game 
.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

mydogspot said:


>


Hmmm I wonder what happened to his dog? Her left leg is shaved....

Edit- blue collar.... _his_ leg???


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Im joking Quincy,i cant play golf to save my life anyway.lol


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

OH MY! The Griff cuteness is too much to bear. My mom's Griff is 14 this year. They have so much personality.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i heard that this cross has become popular as a guide dog.
> has the best traits of labs and goldens...just right for a guide dog.


How is that consistently possible? Wouldn't you have an equal chance of getting the WORST traits of both breeds (though I'm not certain what those would be?)

That's my problem with the whole designer breed issue: How can you possibly get the best of both breeds all the time? What happens when you get the worst of both breeds?


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

petstar said:


> OH MY! The Griff cuteness is too much to bear. My mom's Griff is 14 this year. They have so much personality.


14!! That's a good age for a Griff, must be very loved and well cared for.

They do have a ton of character these little guys. I'll always have a Griff in my life..


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

RonE said:


> How is that consistently possible? Wouldn't you have an equal chance of getting the WORST traits of both breeds (though I'm not certain what those would be?)


i'm just telling you what this blind woman said is going on with these crosses at the school that she got her dog.

she is quite wealthy, and sponsors dogs for other blind people.

the idea is that these are both great dogs for the blind...in some ways, labs are the best.
but there may be some necessary "softening" of lab traits accomplished by crossing with a golden.

realize of course, that every dog doesn't make the grade to become a guide dog.
only the best make it through the demanding training.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

mydogspot said:


> I look into the breeding of every Labradoodle that comes into my classes and there are more that come from health tested parents than not.


If we are talking about Labradoodles in general, where heaps of BYBs and Puppy Mills have jumped on the bandwaggon to make $$$, well I think your situation maybe an exception experience and possibly you maybe seeing more dogs who have come from a minority of dedicated responsible breeders.

In regards to health testing, I have been a registered breeder who bred and showed Cavalier King Charles Spaniels. Yes there certainly were heaps of BYBs and Puppy Mills who churned out heaps of these for $$$, particularly where today in the US the average cost of a pet is $2,000. And I will say that amongst the registered breeders of pure bred Cavaliers only a minority of breeders actually did all the health testing and followed specialist recommended breeding guidelines. I really don't know what the situation is within other breeds, but I suspect the situation maybe somewhat similar and this based on what conversations I have had with friends who bred and showed other breeds.
.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

mydogspot said:


> I love all of your dogs too. I've always wanted a papillon. How old is your eldest sheltie? I'm partial to the older dogs like most people are to puppies..


Both my shelties are actually 12. Trey just looks very young! 

Nikki is sporting the lovely grey face, though.










And Trey, looking always like a puppy:


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Im joking Quincy,i cant play golf to save my life anyway.lol


No worries we are both sort of having a bit of fun and a stir 

Oh I'd better add, Tiger if your still reading rather than fuming, I'll pay the bill at the restaurant, and if Mr Pooch comes I'll keep an eye on him where we will talk about dogs 
.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Both my shelties are actually 12. Trey just looks very young!
> 
> Nikki is sporting the lovely grey face, though.
> 
> ...


**MELTS* They're both beautiful, such dear faces and very wise looking..

Their coats are spectacular too. I keep going back and looking and sighing....so sweet!*


----------



## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I have to say the doodle and poo names also crack me up. Yes, I have an immature sense of humor. 



Ella'sMom said:


> Kind of a funny "doodle" story.......
> 
> A few years ago I was with some friends and we were all talking about our dogs. One of my friend's husbands turned to me and (in all seriousness) says, "I have a golden doodle.....would you like to see it?" Maybe I had a few too many drinks that night but they had to peel me off the floor from laughing so hard. I don't know why but the doodle names crack me up.
> 
> ...


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the problem I see is in the how and why of breeding. 

there is a woman who breeds pit bulls. I say she is a responsible breeder for these reasons:

no sales of animals to the public, period. all her dogs are purpose bred animals, bred and trained for police detection work. no stud services. all her dogs are altered before being placed with various law enforcement agencies. she only breeds every three years or so because that is average how long it takes for her to consider the benefits of a particular pairing. 
these dogs have a reason to be and are placed years before the actual breeding is done. now if more breeders took that to heart and bred for purposes other than looks....shelters might have a bit less worry on their hands.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

mydogspot said:


> 14!! That's a good age for a Griff, must be very loved and well cared for.
> 
> They do have a ton of character these little guys. I'll always have a Griff in my life..


She's extremely well loved and cared for. She was a rescue and is seriously neurotic but overcame a lot after my mom adopted her. (My mom got her when she was 3). She has arthritis, is on prednisone and it was determined today that her heart is enlarged but she's still kicking. I have no idea how my mom will be able to cope with her death. Lucy is her baby. 

Lucy had a "husband" (a neutered male named Desi) who was another rescue...he was an amazing breed representative...the polar opposite of Lucy. He passed away while under anesthesia to have his teeth cleaned. He was only 7.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> now if more breeders took that to heart and bred for purposes other than looks....shelters might have a bit less worry on their hands.


My wife and I obtained our Quincy for purposes, firstly he is an assistance service dog for my wife who has disabilities, secondly my wife became allergic to dogs yet she can have Quincy as she is not allergic to him.

If you ever happen to find an "Australian Labradoodle" in a shelter then please contact their Club, and where I feel their members will respond to take the dog out of the shelter.

By the way, the following looks interesting via this link:-
http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/CodeofEthics.html

I will be available to buyers for whatever advice, reasonable aid or assistance they may need for the life of the dog. ALCA breeder members shall help and support their fellow members in fulfilling this obligation.

I will not sell or trade with any commercial animal wholesalers or retail pet dealers, nor place any dogs in Animal Shelters, but will be committed to find a safe and secure home for all dogs and puppies that leave my facility.

I will spay/neuter all pups that are sold as companion family members.
.



melgrj7 said:


> I have to say the doodle and poo names also crack me up. Yes, I have an immature sense of humor.


Gees doodle and poo names seem to be appearing everywhere, even started to appear on the list via this link, have a look:-
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test.html

And gees even started to appear on this other list within the search, have a look:-
http://www.offa.org/search.html
.


----------



## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

Quincy said:


> If you ever happen to find an "Australian Labradoodle" in a shelter then please contact their Club, and where I feel their members will respond to take the dog out of the shelter.


How can you tell the difference between an Australian Labradoodle and any other Labradoodle or poodle-mix when looking at dogs at a shelter? Are there some distinguishing characteristics that will set them apart?


----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> How can you tell the difference between an Australian Labradoodle and any other Labradoodle or poodle-mix when looking at dogs at a shelter? Are there some distinguishing characteristics that will set them apart?


No! <Shaking head and LMAO!>


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

wabanafcr said:


> How can you tell the difference between an Australian Labradoodle and any other Labradoodle or poodle-mix when looking at dogs at a shelter? Are there some distinguishing characteristics that will set them apart?


How do you tell the difference between the heaps of breeds and crosses out there in the community, and gees some breeds can look similar, and I hear that some do have difficulties regarding "pit bull type dogs".

Well for "Australian Labradoodles" maybe you can get some photos of some, then maybe read what's on this link, and if you require assistance then please contact the Club:-
http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/BreedStandard.html

Just to add, Quincy's breeder by State Law MUST microchip every dog, and any pups sold MUST be microchipped by the breeder before handing over to the new owner. Maybe you can also check for microchips 
.


----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> What do you all think about Doodles as guide dogs?


If they meet the criteria and pass health testing, they should do as well as other breeds used as guide dogs. 

Many dogs of all breeds wash out as guide dogs or service dogs for many different reasons. A guide dog must have the necessary temperament, and be smart enough to know when to exert intelligent disobedience, for the safety of his person. A dog with strong prey drive would not do well as a guide dog, but would be an excellent hearing ear dog.


----------



## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

poodleholic said:


> No! <Shaking head and LMAO!>


I agree--that is why I asked. I know that most shelters/rescues have difficulty even with many long-established breeds, mine included. Flatcoat rescue checks out lots and lots of long-haired black dogs, the vast majority of which aren't even close. Petfinder lists hundreds of "Flatcoats," and 99% of them are mislabeled.

To expect a shelter or rescue to recognize an "Australian Labradoodle," and distinguish it from any other poodle-mix seems unrealistic to me--and it has nothing whatsoever to do with liking or not liking poodle mixes.


----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> How do you tell the difference between the heaps of breeds and crosses out there in the community, and gees some breeds can look similar, and I hear that some do have difficulties regarding "pit bull type dogs".
> 
> Well for "Australian Labradoodles" maybe you can get some photos of some, then maybe read what's on this link, and if you require assistance then please contact the Club:-
> http://www.australianlabradoodleclub...dStandard.html



There is absolutely no way that one could differentiate between a labradoodle bred by joe blow and one with genes from australian labradoodles! Certainly not by looking at a picture of one, or calling the australian labradoodle club! 

Hah! We posted at the same time, wabanafcr! 

Actually, oinest looks just like an australian labradoodle I've seen, and he's a golden retriever and Poodle mix, not a Lab/Poodle mix! 
(Just to clarify, I'm not being sarcastic or poking fun, I'm serious.) To suggest that the australian labradoodle stands out from others is rediculous and misleading. Hey, rah rah and toot the horn of the australian labradoodle all you want, no foul, but don't make statements that are blatently false. 







.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

wabanafcr said:


> I agree--that is why I asked. I know that most shelters/rescues have difficulty even with many long-established breeds, mine included. Flatcoat rescue checks out lots and lots of long-haired black dogs, the vast majority of which aren't even close. Petfinder lists hundreds of "Flatcoats," and 99% of them are mislabeled.


Yes there are some breeds out there that look similar, then add to this crosses, well it does pose problems for shelters, and can provide justification for having mandatory microchipping state laws.

As I added earlier which you may have missed. Quincy's breeder by State Law MUST microchip every dog, and any pups sold MUST be microchipped by the breeder before handing over to the new owner. Maybe you can also check for microchips 
.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Quincy said:


> I hear that some do have difficulties regarding "pit bull type dogs".
> 
> .


with pit bull type shelter dogs it is virtually impossible to distinguish amstaff mix from staffy bull mix to apbt mix. but that's bececause they are mixed.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

No, there's no way we can ever know if the labradoodle we get is an Australian or not... not unless the owner surrendered it and gave a full life story.

We have a hard enough time labeling old well established breeds. Other than the obviously non-show bred dogs in certain breeds (undocked, uncropped doberman for example) , there are no hints as to any dogs' breeding. 

We get labradoodles a couple times a month. Can't tell you if the individuals are first gen labxpoodle or something more.

Would the Australian labradoodle rescue not help a lab x poodle?


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> No, there's no way we can ever know if the labradoodle we get is an Australian or not... not unless the owner surrendered it and gave a full life story.
> 
> We have a hard enough time labeling old well established breeds. Other than the obviously non-show bred dogs in certain breeds (undocked, uncropped doberman for example) , there are no hints as to any dogs' breeding.
> 
> ...


Maybe do as I suggested before which included - "if you require assistance then please contact the Club".

If in your shelter you get any dog of any breed, or even looks like some breed, would you not contact a particular breed club to see if they can help with rescue, and it's up to the breed club to make decisions.

Right now I'm not a member of any club so I really cannot respond on a club's behalf, and I will mention yet again contact the club. Also shelters do check incomming dogs for tags and microchips, which when checked could provide information about the dog including breed so maybe keep an eye out for "Australian Labradoodle".
.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> with pit bull type shelter dogs it is virtually impossible to distinguish amstaff mix from staffy bull mix to apbt mix. but that's bececause they are mixed.


Oh that's interesting. By the way, maybe some on the forum might like to play "find the 'pit bull'" via this link:-
http://www.secondchanceforpets.com/findthepitbull/index.htm
.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> No, there's no way we can ever know if the labradoodle we get is an Australian or not... not unless the owner surrendered it and gave a full life story.
> 
> We have a hard enough time labeling old well established breeds. Other than the obviously non-show bred dogs in certain breeds (undocked, uncropped doberman for example) , there are no hints as to any dogs' breeding.
> 
> ...


I can tell a intentionally bred F1 or F1b Labardoodle, goldendoodle, aussidoodle, or Australian Labradoodle the second I see them. I can also probably tell if they a first gen or back cross. I learned all this simply from going to the dog park. I would think shelter workers could do at least as well.

You are about as likely to get a Australian Labradoodle in you shelter as you are to get, say, a Pharaoh hound.

I also seriously doubt you get 2 intentionally bred F1 or F1b doodles a mouth.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

petstar said:


> She's extremely well loved and cared for. She was a rescue and is seriously neurotic but overcame a lot after my mom adopted her. (My mom got her when she was 3). She has arthritis, is on prednisone and it was determined today that her heart is enlarged but she's still kicking. I have no idea how my mom will be able to cope with her death. Lucy is her baby.
> 
> Lucy had a "husband" (a neutered male named Desi) who was another rescue...he was an amazing breed representative...the polar opposite of Lucy. He passed away while under anesthesia to have his teeth cleaned. He was only 7.


I hope that your mom has the good fortune that I've had with my old gal with an enlarged heart (heart failure). Tia was diagnosed 5 years ago at age 12. I was told that she had a year, maybe a bit longer.. if I was lucky. 

She's now 17 and though she's slowing down, she's happy and full of beans most days! I don't know how we ever get over loosing such a big part of our lives. Realistically, I know that I don't have long with Tia either....I don't know how I'll get through loosing her. 

So sad about Lucy's BFF. My Rose died in my arms after a simple anal gland expression. She had a stress seizure and went into cardiac arrest. 

I'm going to start a Griffy thread so as not to hijack this one any further!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MollyDoggie said:


> I can tell a intentionally bred F1 or F1b Labardoodle, goldendoodle, aussidoodle, or Australian Labradoodle the second I see them. I can also probably tell if they a first gen or back cross. I learned all this simply from going to the dog park. I would think shelter workers could do at least as well.
> 
> You are about as likely to get a Australian Labradoodle in you shelter as you are to get, say, a Pharaoh hound.
> 
> I also seriously doubt you get 2 intentionally bred F1 or F1b doodles a mouth.


Shelter workers are often volunteers! Most don't really have all that much experience with dog breeds. They work for the dogs... does it really matter if Fido is a lab x poodle or golden x poodle when he's in a shelter? All we want is a dog to find a home. 

I can't even tell a poodle cross from another type of poodle cross. I just see fluffy dogs with curly hair! They all look the same to me. 

Of the doodles on here... Molly I could've guessed Goldendoodle, Sophie I'd have guessed labradoodle, Chance... I'm really not sure. he always looks small so size might've thrown me off. Oinest.... I'd have honestly thought he was a standard poodle. the dog in your avatar I would've pegged as a wheaten. (Assuming it is a doodle, of course)

And the smaller ones are even harder.

If you want to start fixing this 'problem' of shelter worker inadequacies then I suggest you start volunteering and helping. 

and how is an intentionally bred F1 doodle going to look ANY different from an 'oops' litter of labs and poodles? (Not that I've seen any of these) It's not going to at all.... 

Why on earth would I make up the numbers of doodles we get? That's just silly. I also think its silly you try to tell me what our shelter does and does not get on average. We get about 1-2 large doodle like dogs a month. I cannot tell them apart any more than I can tell a working bred border collie from a poorly bred one when it gets in the shelter system. We house about 50-80 animals at a time and have a fairly high adoption rate. 

You'd be surprised what we get. We've also had two Xolos since I worked there. Doodles are no exception when it comes to ending up in the shelter. They do end up there. No, not in the numbers of some of the other breeds, but to say they don't is silly...

Believe it or not, some people who get these dogs DON'T research at all. Not every doodle owner is 'affluent' or 'well educated'. They are just as prone to suffering from fads as any other type of dog.

You won't find many nicely bred dogs in the shelter system and if they end up there, they're usually removed fairly quickly. But nothing is foolproof, and even the best contract often does not hold up in court. Well bred dogs are dumped sometimes and do end up in these places.

So you say they're as common in shelters as pharaoh hounds? Yet you meet all these doodles in the dog park.... how many pharaohs do you meet in the dog park? Doodles are much more common than pharaohs. Hence they will end up in shelters more often than pharaohs.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> You are about as likely to get a Australian Labradoodle in you shelter as you are to get, say, a Pharaoh hound.


I'd tend to go along with that 

Some might like try "find the Pharaoh Hound", and to make it easy just 2 photos to choose from.


















.


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> No, there's no way we can ever know if the labradoodle we get is an Australian or not... not unless the owner surrendered it and gave a full life story.
> 
> We have a hard enough time labeling old well established breeds. Other than the obviously non-show bred dogs in certain breeds (undocked, uncropped doberman for example) , there are no hints as to any dogs' breeding.
> 
> ...


oh come on you just aren't listening well enough 
its the accent 
s


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

2nd one's a pharaoh, first one's a Cirneco dell'Etna.

See, I can do that. Doodles, not so much.



Shalva said:


> oh come on you just aren't listening well enough
> its the accent
> s


Lol, good idea. I'll ask the doodle to speak next time we get one in the shelter. That'll settle things.


----------



## reverend_maynard (Aug 4, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Lol, good idea. I'll ask the doodle to speak next time we get one in the shelter. That'll settle things.


They Aussies go "Oy!, Oy!", the Americans "Arf!, Arf!" LOL!


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

reverend_maynard said:


> They Aussies go "Oy!, Oy!", the Americans "Arf!, Arf!" LOL!


...and the Canadians go "Eh!, Eh!"


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

reverend_maynard said:


> They Aussies go "Oy!, Oy!", the Americans "Arf!, Arf!" LOL!


Throw another shrimp on the barbie! 

My Aussie friends are gonna kill me. xD


----------



## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

dog-man said:


> the idea is that these are both great dogs for the blind...in some ways, labs are the best.
> but there may be some necessary "softening" of lab traits accomplished by crossing with a golden.


What do you mean by "softening"? I realize you are putting it in quotes so that you may not be thinking of the same thing that I am, but I am really curious (and frankly, a little tired of you talking about using goldens to "soften" other breeds). 

This is why the whole doodle argument gets so emotional, because some of us actually have and LOVE the breeds used in the mixes. I don't think anything at all needs to be changed about the golden (well, at least my ideal of the golden, not necessarily what's being bred--but that's another topic altogether). If you don't like the longer hair and shedding, then you do not like a golden. Plain and simple. I can only imagine how poodle people feel, wherein it seems half the world only likes their dogs for the coat.


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

FriendsOfZoe said:


> What do you mean by "softening"? I realize you are putting it in quotes so that you may not be thinking of the same thing that I am, but I am really curious (and frankly, a little tired of you talking about using goldens to "soften" other breeds).
> 
> This is why the whole doodle argument gets so emotional, because some of us actually have and LOVE the breeds used in the mixes. I don't think anything at all needs to be changed about the golden (well, at least my ideal of the golden, not necessarily what's being bred--but that's another topic altogether). If you don't like the longer hair and shedding, then you do not like a golden. Plain and simple. I can only imagine how poodle people feel, wherein it seems half the world only likes their dogs for the coat.



I think he is talking bout the temperament..... 

labs can be tough..... a bit bull headed.... bull in a china shop type thing.... very different from how they used to be..... 
I personally think they need softening to.... to go back to being the hunting companion they once were.... many are very very difficult to live with


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Shelter workers are often volunteers! Most don't really have all that much experience with dog breeds. They work for the dogs... does it really matter if Fido is a lab x poodle or golden x poodle when he's in a shelter? All we want is a dog to find a home.
> 
> I can't even tell a poodle cross from another type of poodle cross. I just see fluffy dogs with curly hair! They all look the same to me.
> 
> ...


The reason why the volunteers can't identify doodles is because doodles rarely end up is shelters and when they do are quickly adopted. 



Laurelin said:


> If you want to start fixing this 'problem' of shelter worker inadequacies then I suggest you start volunteering and helping.


My point is not that volunteers are inadequate, it as that the assertion that doodles are filling up shelters is blatantly false, a myth made up by those who hate the idea of doodle breeding.



Laurelin said:


> and how is an intentionally bred F1 doodle going to look ANY different from an 'oops' litter of labs and poodles? (Not that I've seen any of these) It's not going to at all....


Opps liters involving PB poodles are pretty rare.



Laurelin said:


> Why on earth would I make up the numbers of doodles we get? That's just silly. I also think its silly you try to tell me what our shelter does and does not get on average. We get about 1-2 large doodle like dogs a month. I cannot tell them apart any more than I can tell a working bred border collie from a poorly bred one when it gets in the shelter system. We house about 50-80 animals at a time and have a fairly high adoption rate.


Why would the OP, a clearly respectable person and obviously wonderful dog owner, make up the stuff that started this thread? When it comes to doodles, people will say anything to justify what they believe to be true regardless of the facts. 



Laurelin said:


> You'd be surprised what we get. We've also had two Xolos since I worked there. Doodles are no exception when it comes to ending up in the shelter. They do end up there. No, not in the numbers of some of the other breeds, but to say they don't is silly...
> 
> 
> Believe it or not, some people who get these dogs DON'T research at all. Not every doodle owner is 'affluent' or 'well educated'. They are just as prone to suffering from fads as any other type of dog.
> ...


I said Australian Labradoodles, which often sell for 3000+, and have a completely different breed history then labradoodles, are as likely to turn up in a shelter as a Pharaoh hound

If I had an intentionally bred F1 or F1b doodle I didn't want, I could rehome it instantly. Even sell it for $1000. Try and find a doodle on craigslist. 
The reason there are lots of doodles in dog parks and few in shelters is because they are what they are claimed to be. Excellent family dogs, low to non shedding, evenly tempered, healthy, non dog aggressive, happy dogs, For the most part buyers of doodles are happy with what they get.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> There is absolutely no way that one could differentiate between a labradoodle bred by joe blow and one with genes from australian labradoodles! Certainly not by looking at a picture of one, or calling the australian labradoodle club!
> 
> To suggest that the australian labradoodle stands out from others is rediculous and misleading. Hey, rah rah and toot the horn of the australian labradoodle all you want, no foul, but don't make statements that are blatently false.


you can't tell where a dog came from, but there is no doubt that the Australian doodles are of higher quality than most.

unless, you think there is also no such thing as breeders of poodles with higher quality poodles.

the Australian breeders did much work to find combinations where the allergy and non-shed trait was successful, and to continue it in a line.

as well, they are diligent on all the best, up-to-date health tests.

and like all good breeders, they picked their best dogs for breeding.

i'm not sure what is so hard to understand.

i couldn't afford them, so i took my chances with a cheaper route...but still did homework.

also, i would think that those with experience can tell if a doodle is from a quality breeder or not.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

FriendsOfZoe said:


> What do you mean by "softening"? I realize you are putting it in quotes so that you may not be thinking of the same thing that I am, but I am really curious (and frankly, a little tired of you talking about using goldens to "soften" other breeds).
> 
> This is why the whole doodle argument gets so emotional, because some of us actually have and LOVE the breeds used in the mixes. I don't think anything at all needs to be changed about the golden (well, at least my ideal of the golden, not necessarily what's being bred--but that's another topic altogether). If you don't like the longer hair and shedding, then you do not like a golden. Plain and simple. I can only imagine how poodle people feel, wherein it seems half the world only likes their dogs for the coat.


but then ask people what they don't like about the poodle and it'll be because they're 'froo froo' which to me has to do mostly with coat.... ya?


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> 2nd one's a pharaoh, first one's a Cirneco dell'Etna.
> 
> See, I can do that. Doodles, not so much.


Maybe I should have uploaded the files with different file names 
.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MollyDoggie said:


> The reason why the volunteers can't identify doodles is because doodles rarely end up is shelters and when they do are quickly adopted.


Tell that to the labradoodle we had here for weeks. Most our dogs are adopted in a week. He was here almost a month. I don't know why. Big, floofy, lovable, young white haired guy.



> My point is not that volunteers are inadequate, it as that the assertion that doodles are filling up shelters is blatantly false, a myth made up by those who hate the idea of doodle breeding.


I didn't say they were filling up shelters, I said they ended up in shelters like dogs of any other breed. Proportion and amount of what breed ends up in a shelter has to do with popularity in the area. The more popular a dog type is, the more you'll see them in a shelters. Period. Doodles are no exception.



> Opps liters involving PB poodles are pretty rare.


I agree, which is why I assume all the poodle mixes we get are intentional crosses. I'm sure this isn't true for every one of them, but it is true for most.




> Why would the OP, a clearly respectable person and obviously wonderful dog owner, make up the stuff that started this thread? When it comes to doodles, people will say anything to justify what they believe to be true regardless of the facts.


True for either side. I didn't start the thread so I can't say anything of that sort.



> If I had an intentionally bred F1 or F1b doodle I didn't want, I could rehome it instantly. Even sell it for $1000. Try and find a doodle on craigslist.
> The reason there are lots of doodles in dog parks and few in shelters is because they are what they are claimed to be. Excellent family dogs, low to non shedding, evenly tempered, healthy, non dog aggressive, happy dogs, For the most part buyers of doodles are happy with what they get.


I'm not really seeing the point of this paragraph? I've never said they weren't what they are made to be or that there isn't a demand. 

There is less demand for the 'broken' ones we get in shelters. 

People buying into a fad (and before you go screaming not everyone who has a fad dog is doing so...) often times do not research. They just don't know how to take care of a dog... they are unrealistic or they just want the cute factor then they outgrow it and it off to the pound. Again not just a doodle problem, but it is a problem with doodles like other dogs. 

I think it's amusing you're arguing with one of the few people on the board who has NO problem with responsible doodle breeding, but that's just me.



Quincy said:


> Maybe I should have uploaded the files with different file names
> .


I didn't look at the names? I think that's rather rude, actually.

I just know the breeds. I'm a sighthound buff, what can I say.

ETA: If you want to trick me, start posting terriers. I can't tell them apart at all.


----------



## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

My lab was very difficult to live with. Talk about a bull in a china shop. He came from a reputable breeder and I took him to training classes from day one. I love labs and would consider one in the future ( for some reason I have always prefered them over goldens) but it would have to be at a different time in my life. My children are too young. I would need the time and energy to deal with that breed again which I don't have now.


----------



## Aggie (Mar 13, 2008)

This is more an aside for Laurelin- we had the president of the service dog club speak one day in one of my classes. Their 'doodles ARE out of Australian lines, and the ones who are breeding for a specific type of service dog. They did go into the background of the whole debate people are going on about here; I was satisfied with their explanation of where their doodles are donated from, and why they choose to use those as well as the golden retrievers. Theirs are in no way F1's or F2's, they are the ones from the lines I want to say that started up in the 70's and 80's.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I didn't look at the names? I think that's rather rude, actually.


I appologise 
.



Aggie said:


> This is more an aside for Laurelin- we had the president of the service dog club speak one day in one of my classes. Their 'doodles ARE out of Australian lines, and the ones who are breeding for a specific type of service dog. They did go into the background of the whole debate people are going on about here; I was satisfied with their explanation of where their doodles are donated from, and why they choose to use those as well as the golden retrievers. Theirs are in no way F1's or F2's, they are the ones from the lines I want to stay that started up in the 70's and 80's.


I've also heard of donations and to a number of such places, and they too were NOT F1's or F2's but had much more development than that.
.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I didn't say they were filling up shelters, I said they ended up in shelters like dogs of any other breed. Proportion and amount of what breed ends up in a shelter has to do with popularity in the area. The more popular a dog type is, the more you'll see them in a shelters. Period. Doodles are no exception.


That's not true. Golden Retrievers are very underrepresented in shelters relative to their popularity, as are yourkies, Boston terriers, English Bulldogs, Poodles, and doodles.

Other breeds are over-represented. Labs, pits, shepherds, hounds, doxies, chis.


----------



## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

MollyDoggie said:


> That's not true. Golden Retrievers are very underrepresented in shelters relative to their popularity, as are yourkies, Boston terriers, English Bulldogs, Poodles, and doodles.
> 
> Other breeds are over-represented. Labs, pits, shepherds, hounds, doxies, chis.


This is very true and the results of many studies I and various rescue organizations have recently taken part in.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Shalva said:


> I think he is talking about the temperament.....
> 
> labs can be tough..... a bit bull headed.... bull in a china shop type thing.... very different from how they used to be.....
> I personally think they need softening to.... to go back to being the hunting companion they once were.... many are very very difficult to live with


thank you...you said it very well.



FriendsOfZoe said:


> This is why the whole doodle argument gets so emotional, because some of us actually have and LOVE the breeds used in the mixes.
> 
> I don't think anything at all needs to be changed about the golden (well, at least my ideal of the golden, not necessarily what's being bred--but that's another topic altogether). If you don't like the longer hair and shedding, then you do not like a golden. Plain and simple.


this is where you are irrational.

the golden is my favorite dog.

however, i have allergies.

therefore, a goldendoodle was a great choice...simple.

the golden retriever is not some sort of holy religious article, that it would be blasphemy to use them in a breed-cross.

and besides, i find that the mixing with a poodle adds extra traits that make the goldendoodle even more special (to me) than a golden.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

FriendsOfZoe said:


> I can only imagine how poodle people feel, wherein it seems half the world only likes their dogs for the coat.


Maybe that might be so. But in relation to my wife who is allergic to dogs she is interested in Canis familiaris allergen (Can f 1) and Canis familiaris allergen Can f 2) which are the two major allergens present in dogs, and such proteins are found in dogs dander, saliva, urine.

Poodles do have these proteins just like any other breed including Labradoodles. BUT some dogs within any breed or cross breed just may have differences in these proteins that does not aggrevate an allergy response. If such dogs were found and bred over generations with yet more such dogs, then you may have dogs more suitable to those allergic to dogs, BUT as all peoples can be different in regards to protein allergy responses it is very important to NOT assume and instead test themselves to the particular dog that they are interested in, and in regards to severe allergies to dogs the testing should be done by doctors and preferably allergy specialists plus with medical emergency equipment and drugs readily available.

When the first litter of Labradoodles was purposely bred by Guide Dogs Victoria, samples of saliva and coat which contained dander from 3 puppies was sent to be tested on the person who was allergic to dogs. That person tested OK to only one puppy but was tested allergic to the other 2 puppies, note pups were from the same litter of the first purposely bred Labradoodle. Also keep in mind that prior to that, this person was similarly tested to samples from 33 Poodles and that person tested allergic to every one of those Poodle samples.
.


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

borzoimom said:


> I am soooooooo sick of this. Again- our HS comes out with the monthly list- again- same thing- most are doodle type mixes. Uh coat didnt come out like we thought-- sheds too much, too curly have to clip it all the time, too much energy, health problems ( up the wazzzzooooo..) or flat out- too much bounce for the family and its a mutt.. ( well duh- what did you think you were getting..).. Since not a breed, no rescues to call, others problems like matted or a mess or whatever..





MollyDoggie said:


> I'm curious as to which VA HS put out this list. There does not appear to be a single doodle type dog available at ANY VA HS.
> Here are the dogs available from all the VA HS that list their dogs:
> 
> Hanover Humane Society
> ...





MollyDoggie said:


> There are not even any "doodle looking" dogs in ANY VH HS published adoption list.
> 
> NOT A SINGLE ONE!
> 
> I personally believe this entire thread is based on fictitious information posted solely to generate doodle rage, and I challenge the OP to provide ANY evidence to the contrary.


borzoimom??


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

for poodleholic,

just wanted to let you know i met a standard poodle the other day that i liked a lot.

the dog park that i go to, already had 4 standard poodles...this was #5

of those 4, 2 are a little vicious to dogs, and the other two are cold to strangers.

this one is 10 months old.
he loved to meet new people.



KaseyT said:


> borzoimom??



i'm actually afraid she's nearing a nervous breakdown.

i had her quite upset from the show dog thread.

i think she fibbed a little here, got caught, and i think we should have the police check her home now.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

dog-man said:


> for poodleholic,
> 
> just wanted to let you know i met a standard poodle the other day that i liked a lot.
> 
> ...


Well, dogs withing breeds are individuals, too. Depending on their parents temperament and how they were raised, you can get dogs in the same breed with very different personalities. I generally hear people say how nice and friendly poodles are, generally.


----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

dog-man said:


> you can't tell where a dog came from, but there is no doubt that the Australian doodles are of higher quality than most.
> 
> unless, you think there is also no such thing as breeders of poodles with higher quality poodles.
> 
> ...



Don't be condesending. 

I not only *understand*, I am very well aware of the difference between what the Australian breeders were after, and did, than the doodle mixes coming from millers and BYBs. That does not mean that you, or John Q Public, could identify an australian labradoodle from a lab and poodle cross not from that gene pool.


----------



## bluedawg (Apr 20, 2008)




----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> for poodleholic,
> 
> just wanted to let you know i met a standard poodle the other day that i liked a lot.
> 
> ...



Keep in mind that our dogs are mirrors of ourselves. 

In addition, lack of socialization is, more often than not, IMO, why dogs have problems with other dogs. This is caused by the owner, rather than the nature of the dog himself, or basic temperament of the dog. On a regular basis, a group of us SPoodle owners get together, and we're talking more than 250 SPoodles. At a friend's daughter's wedding, there were 21 Standard Poodles. My Maddy was the flower girl, Fifi was the Maid of Honor (along w/a human), and Saber was the Ring Bearer. All of those SPoodles were very friendly and tolerant of noisey children, grabbing toddlers, and even the drunks and bores. 

Well, maybe those two Standards were cold to you, and others you know, because you held no interest for them (read: boring). Standard Poodles require owners who are intelligent and have a sense a humor. They would be bored to death living with the sterotypical *******, for example, and as for pompass asses, oh my, now THAT I'd love to be the proverbial fly on the wall to witness! LOL I have a relative through marriage who is a real pompass ass (a legend in his own mind) who is deftly and promptly put in his place on a regular basis by Maddy (who has nearly zero tolerance for fools).


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> That does not mean that you, or John Q Public, could identify an australian labradoodle from a lab and poodle cross not from that gene pool.


i, or John Q. Public perhaps cannot, but above in the thread was someone who said he/she could.

also, i think i could tell one from a top breeder or a run-of-the-puppy-mill dog.

just like i think YOU can make certain distinctions when you see poodles.

whatever YOU can tell about a poodle's background is what an experienced Doodle person can tell about their "breed".



poodleholic said:


> In addition, lack of socialization is, more often than not, IMO, why dogs have problems with other dogs. This is caused by the owner, rather than the nature of the dog himself, or basic temperament of the dog.


yes, but perhaps certain breeds need less work to bring out the social traits.

a golden might need less to bring it out than a poodle, even though a poodle's friendly nature could be brought out by a knowledgeable owner.

i have never seen a golden with the negative traits some of these poodles have.
yes, yes, i'm sure they exist...that is not the point.



poodleholic said:


> Well, maybe those two Standards were cold to you, and others you know, because you held no interest for them (read: boring).


i doubt that was it.

i have a knack with dogs, and i was trying to get to know them.
they were totally disinterested.

this last poodle was very similar in interest to new people as Oinest.

most dogs at dog parks are interested in the other dogs and not the owners.

there are many exceptions, but that seems to be the general rule.



poodleholic said:


> Don't be condesending.
> 
> I not only *understand*, I am very well aware of the difference between what the Australian breeders were after, and did, than the doodle mixes coming from millers and BYBs. .


boy, are you funny!!!

you say "don't be condescending".

and you say that you are very aware of the differences.

but what i was reacting to were these two posts from you, which were condescending and expressing extreme skepticism regarding major differences between Australian and byb breeders...differences which surely are obvious to the trained eye...just as you have a trained eye for poodles.

here are your quotes, rolling on the floor laughing and all:

Quote:
"How can you tell the difference between an Australian Labradoodle and any other Labradoodle or poodle-mix when looking at dogs at a shelter? Are there some distinguishing characteristics that will set them apart?"


YOUR RESPONSE: 
No! <Shaking head and LMAO!>

There is absolutely no way that one could differentiate between a labradoodle bred by joe blow and one with genes from australian labradoodles!

-----

man, "don't be condescending"
i love when the pot calls the kettle black.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Sorry guys, I drove all day, no time to catch up now, but I will asap....



Aggie said:


> This is more an aside for Laurelin- we had the president of the service dog club speak one day in one of my classes. Their 'doodles ARE out of Australian lines, and the ones who are breeding for a specific type of service dog. They did go into the background of the whole debate people are going on about here; I was satisfied with their explanation of where their doodles are donated from, and why they choose to use those as well as the golden retrievers. Theirs are in no way F1's or F2's, they are the ones from the lines I want to say that started up in the 70's and 80's.


Yeah, I looked up their breeder once. I have no problems with them at all. What I'm curious to is why if doodles are not a good choice for service dogs this program is so successful with their dogs? I always hear that they failed as guide dogs and service dogs but obviously to me they're still being used as them at least here.


----------



## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> Try and find a doodle on craigslist.
> The reason there are lots of doodles in dog parks and few in shelters is because they are what they are claimed to be. Excellent family dogs, low to non shedding, evenly tempered, healthy, non dog aggressive, happy dogs, For the most part buyers of doodles are happy with what they get.


Before I got Max one of the dogs I was looking at was a goldendoodle (also named Max). The lady relisted him like 5 or 6 days in a row and when I emailed to inquire about him she seemed quite desperate to find him a nice home. Unfortunately he was 60 lbs. and well over my weight limit. I often wonder what happened to him because he was very, very cute but the lady seemed to have a lot of trouble finding him a home. Maybe it was his size, who knows?

I will also add, that whoever said the thing about numbers in shelters being proportional to the popularity of the breed had a great point. Of course you get dogs of almost every breed in a shelter, but the numbers of certain breeds are small given the total number of those dogs that exist (is that worded nicely). But of course there are a few other things to consider here. One is that some of these dogs don't even make it onto the shelter websites because they are readopted so quickly. Small terriers and poodle mixes you have to be there the second they are up for adoption. They will have a deposit in less than 24 hours. So a lot of doodles probably get snapped up quickly once they are there. The big ones may have problems. And so, too, those that have a behavioral issue. Because the point of people not wanting "broken" or "used" dogs is also a good one. There is a lot of prejudice against shelter dogs out there.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Yeah, I looked up their breeder once. I have no problems with them at all. What I'm curious to is why if doodles are not a good choice for service dogs this program is so successful with their dogs? I always hear that they failed as guide dogs and service dogs but obviously to me they're still being used as them at least here.


I keep hearing that too and where they mention Guide Dogs Australia. Well I like to check things out for myself as not everything mentioned on forums is correct, and on a search I found the following from this link:-
http://www.guidedogsvictoria.com.au/faq/guide-dog-faq/

Guide Dogs Victoria
Guide Dog FAQ's

What breeds of dogs are used? 
In Australia, we use mainly Labradors. We have also crossed Labradors with Golden Retrievers, Curly-coat Retrievers and more recently, Standard Poodles, to produce the now well-known Labradoodle. In response to special requests, Guide Dogs Victoria may source other breeds, including German Shepherds from overseas Guide Dog Schools with whom Guide Dogs Victoria has a special relationship.

What are the reasons for experimenting with other breeds?
Some clients have a preference for a certain breed, and we try to meet their needs. The Labradoodle was bred by Guide Dogs Victoria particularly for people who have an allergy to dog hair. The aim was to breed from Guide Dog Victoria's Labrador brood bitches (which have an excellent temperament for Guide Dog work) with the Poodle (which does not shed its coat) to produce a dog that may be more suitable for people with allergies to dog hair. 

And I see today that Guide Dogs Victoria Australia appears to be exporting labradoodles under some contract to other Guide Dog places, and the following from this link:-
http://www.eyeofthepacific.org/guidedogs.htm

Eye of the Pacific Guide Dogs & Mobility Services Inc
Guide Dog Program

We are contracted with Guide Dog Association of Victoria, Melbourne, Australia (GDVA) and Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind (RNZFB). GDVA scientifically breed and train Labrador retrievers. They also breed and train labradoodles (cross between a Labrador retriever and standard poodle). The labradoodles are dogs given to individuals who have allergies to dog hair. RNZFB provides a large stock of Labrador retrievers. However, they also provide a wide selection of cross breeds.
.


----------



## RRM_Mom08 (May 5, 2008)

I must say I agree I cringe when I here of these designer dogs the the paper or online.These breeds in general have so many issues (health) and it really takes someone that is knowledgeable about genetics and diligence and time to start a new dog breed.


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

RRM_Mom08 said:


> I must say I agree I cringe when I here of these designer dogs the the paper or online.These breeds in general have so many issues (health) and it really takes someone that is knowledgeable about genetics and diligence and time to start a new dog breed.


Which breeds have these health issues and what are they?

Also, who is trying to create a new breed?


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Which breeds have these health issues and what are they?
> 
> Also, who is trying to create a new breed?


i'll tell you what's going on?

for years, anti-doodle folk on these forums have been able to make all sorts of unfounded statements about doodles, without too many strong challenges.

each person would take turns saying the next thing that popped into their head:
there can't be such a thing as a good doodle breeder.
they'll be getting the worst traits of both breeds.
all these dogs are ending up in shelters.
the buyers are just shallow, ignorant people, just following the latest fad and status symbol.
there is no such thing as hybrid vigor.
my groomer says that they're all hyper and crazy.
etc, etc, etc.
and virtually everyone else agreed with them...a good time was had by all.

a person here and there who defended doodles was intimated, and chased away or silenced.

now, there are more knowledgeable and proud doodle people coming on these forums...demanding that these unfounded statements be backed up, even to a minimal degree.

we're killing their fun.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i'll tell you what's going on?
> 
> for years, anti-doodle folk on these forums have been able to make all sorts of unfounded statements about doodles, without too many strong challenges.
> 
> ...


Are you OK with all of the doodle mixes? Or are you just OK with the golden doodle ad the labrodoodle?

Because I think even you have to admit that the doodle thing has gotten out of hand. Not that I have a problem with the breeding of certain mixes as long as the breeders are responsible and have a purpose. 

But honestly responsible breeders all together are hard to come by, regardless of the breed or mix. The answer to the problem is responsible breeding practices as a whole. Then we can stop having these back to back conversations on the numerous topics that are constantly getting DF members railed up.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

DobManiac said:


> Are you OK with all of the doodle mixes? Or are you just OK with the golden doodle ad the labrodoodle?
> 
> Because I think even you have to admit that the doodle thing has gotten out of hand. Not that I have a problem with the breeding of certain mixes as long as the breeders are responsible and have a purpose.
> .


i love goldendoodles...i like labradoodles very much.

i don't have a strong opinion on other mixes, because i don't have knowledge of how they are working out.

i have met some cute and happy puggles, cockerpoos, bichon poos, etc.

people talk about some mixes that don't seem to make sense....but i haven't been seeing them.
i would think there has to be something positive about the mix, before a major trend develops.

i support good breeders, deplore lousy breeders.
the exact definition of a good breeder is up to debate.

i don't think breeding for money instead of ribbons is an automatic problem.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

dog-man said:


> i love goldendoodles...i like labradoodles very much.
> 
> i don't have a strong opinion on other mixes, because i don't have knowledge of how they are working out.
> 
> ...


Try looking up a Bostillon.... THAT mix makes no sense.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/b/bostillon.htm


Or a Chion (Chihuahua x papillon) usually just looks like a badly bred pap or chihuahua. Once again, temperament is just totally different. 

Or sheltidoodles... I cannot possibly see how that cross would work out. Temperament for one is just polar opposites. Purpose, coat, etc... 

Or whoever decided the ACHC needed to recognize a sheltie x collie is just silly. It's called an oversized sheltie. Those already exist. ANY modern sheltie is already part collie and not too far back so you'll end up with a large sheltie or a small collie.... what's the point here? 

I totally understand the idea behind the labradoodle. Goldendoodles, I'm not as keen on as I haven't really seen a point past the idea that labradoodles were a big success. There seem to be a fair amount of good labradoodle breeders out there, but I have high standards and don't see goldendoodle breeders doing the same things. I may just be misinformed. I've asked for links to good goldendoodle breeders before but no one ever shows me. (If you want to pm them so they don't get blasted on a public forum that'd be preferable.) I just want to be 

Cockapoos- I've seen a couple decent breeders, not to the typical good labradoodle standard, but I'm okay with them as well if coming from a good breeder.

Any other designer mixes I've seen I have yet to see one breeder that could be even remotely construed as reputable. 

There is no reason to cross everything with a poodle- none at all. And that's all that's happening in these, especially the small mixes. Poor breeding stock, no health clearances and nothing in mind beyond money. Lots over-breeding and it's just really a disaster. 

The same thing, of course, happens with purebreds and labradoodles but to me the difference is that there are good breeders amongst them. 


Thanks Quincy for the information, btw.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Try looking up a Bostillon.... THAT mix makes no sense.
> 
> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/b/bostillon.htm
> 
> ...


how many of these dogs do you think exist?

on the site you referenced, there was not one breeder to be found of the bostillion.

also, just because there is someone out there advertising these new crosses, doesn't mean that there is a demand for them.
maybe one breeder tried it.

just because i support some crosses doesn't mean i need to defend the stupid ones.
and i don't think the market will demand the stupid ones.


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

dog-man said:


> how many of these dogs do you think exist?
> 
> just because there is someone out there advertising these new crosses, doesn't mean that there is a demand for them.
> 
> ...


I have the impression Goldendoodles are fairly recent compared to labradoodles. Turned out to be a wonderful combination with pretty consistent coat and color. There are 4 of them that come regularly to my dog park. Wonderful dogs each one of them. I sure wish I could clip my Maggie short in the summer like her gdoodle friends.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> just because i support some crosses doesn't mean i need to defend the stupid ones.
> and i don't think the market will demand the stupid ones.


If we're going to lump show breeders, why not lump "stupid" crosses?


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Try looking up a Bostillon.... THAT mix makes no sense.
> 
> http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/b/bostillon.htm
> 
> ...


I totally agree with you. I have seen a ton of gorgeous gdoodles. But for every one gdoodle I have met I have met about 3 or 4  dogs.

The puggle- I own a hyper beagle. WHY in the WOLRD would I mix him with a hyper pug?!?!?!

The pin-uaua- get a min-pin....get a chihuahua... WHY mix them? Because they CAN.

A chihuahua you can get for 200, same goes for min pin. But the mix goes for like a grand. Thats the problem I have with hybrid dogs.

I dont have anything against a goldenoodle breeder that is doing MOST everything right.


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If we're going to lump show breeders, why not lump "stupid" crosses?



Imagine if you crossed a Pekingese with a Pug. One tap on the head an it's eyes would pop out.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If we're going to lump show breeders, why not lump "stupid" crosses?


the only lumping i have done on show breeders is the obsession with PURE breed, which limits these dogs to their original foundation stock, which geneticists claim is a cause of many recessive genetic problems.

otherwise, each breed group has it's own positive and negative....and no lumping can necessarily be made.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> the only lumping i have done on show breeders is the obsession with PURE breed, which limits these dogs to their original foundation stock, which geneticists claim is a cause of many recessive genetic problems.


Unless your geneticists are requesting all intact dogs be let loose to adapt to a niche outside of our influence and are allowed to reproduce naturally, I'm not sure the geneticists you're reading from have a solution that will resolve any differently than what is current. As I mentioned before, selective breeding, no matter how it is structured *is* still a fast acting pressure towards a genetic bottleneck.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Unless your geneticists are requesting all intact dogs be let loose to adapt to a niche outside of our influence and are allowed to reproduce naturally, I'm not sure the geneticists you're reading from have a solution that will resolve any differently than what is current. As I mentioned before, selective breeding, no matter how it is structured *is* still a fast acting pressure towards a genetic bottleneck.


go read some solutions on the website that i have referenced:
www.canine-genetics.com

one fellow started a whole new breed of sled dog in Canada, by insisting he be allowed to breed Siberian stock with Canadian, and have it recognized.

another discussion involves limited mixing of dalmations with pointers (an original breed to create the dalmation) in order to relieve certain genetic problems in all dalmations.
problem is that the spots get changed in size, even though they can keep the basic look, with some work.
which is more important?

obviously, doing things to open up the bottleneck is to be welcomed.

first, there has to be a general recognition of a problem.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Dogman, I don't think you're actually READING the link you are posting. 

Do you know how many pointers were involved in the dalmatian backcross project? ONE. 

Do you know how many corgis were involved in Bruce Cattanach's NBT Boxer project? ONE.

Planned careful crosses are NOT the same thing as wholesale random crossbreeding.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> Dogman, I don't think you're actually READING the link you are posting.
> 
> Do you know how many pointers were involved in the dalmatian backcross project? ONE.
> 
> ...



i'm not sure what point you are trying to make TO ME.

i am not talking about wholesale mixing...where did i say i was?

the dalmation club was against this experiment for over 20 years, even with only one pointer out of 31 dalmations.
now they are rethinking it.

however, mixing in ONLY one has its own problems.
what if THAT ONE has a hidden recessive genetic problem?
all subsequent dogs that come from this group would have a too high chance of having this recessive gene.

i am interested in doing what is best for their health first...their conformation second.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> go read some solutions on the website that i have referenced:
> www.canine-genetics.com


I'm not interested in what this website has to say. I'm sure what I read will be understood much differently than what you're trying to infer. 



> one fellow started a whole new breed of sled dog in Canada, by insisting he be allowed to breed Siberian stock with Canadian, and have it recognized.


This isn't a new phenomena where a purse can be one. People have been trying to perfect the sled dog for decades, that doesn't mean this sort of practice is good for dogs or beneficial to the "new" function of companion dogs, however. 



> another discussion involves limited mixing of dalmations with pointers (an original breed to create the dalmation) in order to relieve certain genetic problems in all dalmations.
> problem is that the spots get changed in size, even though they can keep the basic look, with some work.
> which is more important?


And in the process the gene pool is further limited when desired traits are lost by such a breeding. So we've come full circle IMO. 



> obviously, doing things to open up the bottleneck is to be welcomed.


Actually no. I've mentioned genetic engineering, and there is a strong ethical pull against it. Not welcome IMO. If we want a better understanding of the relation between genotype and phenotype, genetic engineering is where it will happen. Not by selective breeding. Breeders are too unorganized to influence genes in a positive way through selective breeding. It's not even in the realm of possibility IMO.


----------



## zannie (Mar 12, 2008)

i live in iowa and the prices i see in the paper for the cute named mixes is around 300 or 400 hundred are people realy paying 1000 for mixes in other parts of the country.if so that is a crime ,i know people who already have one and love them to death will say they are worth it and i'm sure they are to them, but when it comes down to it theses breeders are laughing all the way to the bank...........


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

dog-man said:


> i'm not sure what point you are trying to make TO ME.
> 
> i am not talking about wholesale mixing...where did i say i was?
> 
> ...


dogman
*
i am interested in doing what is best for their health first...their conformation second.*

I don't understand the above statement, the only thing you have been doing is glorifying the Oinest, which is your right as a dog owner. You've read a lot of articles, books, etc. Started a number of totally useless threads because they are not helping anybody. Just a lot self back slapping on what a great mixed breed the doodle is. You are a one dog wonder, which is better than a no dog wonder, I guess. You are not breeding anything to improve any mixed or pure breed's health or conformation. As far as I have read you are not a dog trainer or behaviourist. What are you doing?


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'm not interested in what this website has to say. I'm sure what I read will be understood much differently than what you're trying to infer.


that's a very open-minded approach.



Curbside Prophet said:


> And in the process the gene pool is further limited when desired traits are lost by such a breeding. So we've come full circle IMO.
> .


important traits of the dalmation (such a being great around horses) does not have to be lost, especially since the pointer helped create them.

it is only the cute spots which are in danger from such an enterprise.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> that's a very open-minded approach.


Actually your assumption that I'm not aware of the website is where one mind closed.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

wvasko said:


> dogman
> *
> i am interested in doing what is best for their health first...their conformation second.*
> 
> I don't understand the above statement, the only thing you have been doing is glorifying the Oinest, which is your right as a dog owner. You've read a lot of articles, books, etc. Started a number of totally useless threads because they are not helping anybody. Just a lot self back slapping on what a great mixed breed the doodle is. You are a one dog wonder, which is better than a no dog wonder, I guess. You are not breeding anything to improve any mixed or pure breed's health or conformation. As far as I have read you are not a dog trainer or behaviourist. What are you doing?


there is an attitude prevelant among dog-lovers that the only good breeder is one who wants to keep the breed a PUREbreed.

and all attempts at experimentation are considered blasphemy.

Oinest is not a one-dog wonder.

there are many, many wonderful goldendoodles out there.

just like the purebreeds, it is important to have good breeders and educated consumers.

i want to "battle" the stupid statements that are put out by doodle-haters.
i want to keep the conversation honest.

as well, there are possible serious genetic problems with purebreds (simply because they are purebreds), and i think it is important to bring the subject to the forefront.

this is a dog forum...and this is the place to discuss these issues.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Actually your assumption that I'm not aware of the website is where one mind closed.


i am not shocked you are aware of it...i'm not sure where i am closeminded because i refer it to you, after you made a comment about the opinions of the "geneticists" i often quote.

anyway, if you have read articles, then explain where you believe them wrong or right...that is the point of debate.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> anyway, if you have read articles, then explain where you believe them wrong or right...that is the point of debate.


I'd rather debate the genetics with the geneticist. And it's kinda hard to debate with someone who doesn't acknowledge logic to an inference.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'd rather debate the genetics with the geneticist. And it's kinda hard to debate with someone who doesn't acknowledge logic to an inference.


are YOU a geneticist?

the problem is that i'm too logical and intellectually honest for you.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

dogman

*i want to "battle" the stupid statements that are put out by doodle-haters.
i want to keep the conversation honest.
as well, there are possible serious genetic problems with purebreds (simply because they are purebreds), and i think it is important to bring the subject to the forefront.
this is a dog forum...and this is the place to discuss these issues.
*

I understand the "battle statement" I have no opinion about doodles or doodle-haters, I dislike mixed breeding of any purebred stock. I just think with all the replies/posts/threads you have made/started it would make the conversation *Honest* if you actually had done anything in the world of dogs other than read other peoples research. I think you got to get down in the ditches and do the work/experience etc. I've spent 2/3rds of my life training 90 different breeds of dogs. I don't argue or battle about different training techniques and I do have the experience necessary to do battle. I am primarily a negative motivation type trainer. My training battle would be a negative biased battle. I understand that the dog forum is the place to discuss the issues, "my opinion only" is that you got to bring more than what you read to have an honest and not a doodle biased discussion.


----------



## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

> there are many, many wonderful goldendoodles out there


I'm sure there are many wonderful goldendoodles out there. There are also many more horrible representatives of the so called breed. And possibly quite a few that wound up being euthanized shortly after birth due to lack of desired type.

There are many wonderful heinz 57 mixes out there too. However neither one has the ability to reproduce themselves uniformly. It takes many generations to develop a breed that can consistently reproduce true to type.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

zannie said:


> i live in iowa and the prices i see in the paper for the cute named mixes is around 300 or 400 hundred are people realy paying 1000 for mixes in other parts of the country.if so that is a crime ,i know people who already have one and love them to death will say they are worth it and i'm sure they are to them, but when it comes down to it theses breeders are laughing all the way to the bank...........












what in the world makes them so high quality?


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

dog-man said:


> that's a very open-minded approach.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you think the dalmatian is just some cute spots, you have NO FRELLING CLUE what makes this breed. 

The dalmatian is strength and grace and endurance. Despite the fact that he looks, to you, like a pointer, he is actually a guardian breed- bred to trot all day with carriages and wagons and carts, and guard them from robbers. His build is the ultimate in moderation- not so heavy as to sacrifice endurance, not so light as to sacrifice strength. He should be reserved with strangers, fearless, and have discretion. And unlike the GSDs and Malinois and shepherdy guard dogs? Working in a team with a human wasn't part of his makeup. He had his job and he did it. This is why bad breeding in Dals shows up bad temperament. The health problems are, IMO, the lesser of the problems. Deafness occurs in about 7% of the breed and less than.. I think it's 1%? Can't remember- are bilaterally deaf. The rest of those dogs are unilateral and can generally manage a pet home just fine- they just shouldn't be bred. Stone forming IS an issue, and I fully support the backcross project. But I don't htink you can label 'purebred snobs' or 'show breeders' as being against it. I'm not sure you noticed this, but the dalmatians involved in the early generations of that project? All SORTS of titles in those pedigrees. Show breeders funded the research to determine the range of pH present in the breed, funded the research to figure out exactly WHAT to outcross to fix it, and have continued to support the project by allowing top-quality dogs to be crossed into those lines. The spotting pattern is such a distinctive part of the breed to say 'it doesn't matter' that if you think that, you really do NOT get the breed. As much to say that you should have just gotten a poodle. Why bother with a goldendoodle. After all, they DO shed, so the hair thing is just cosmetic. 

I will never own a Dalmatian. But I adore my friend's dogs, and if you think the backcross project is in ANY way equal to the BYBing of random mixes, you are sadly mistaken.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> what in the world makes them so high quality?


Because 'they said so', I guess. People are such suckers.


----------



## Mycathinks hesadog (Mar 4, 2008)

ugh... I don't even know where to start chiming in on this one...

can we just start another pit bull thread and let this one fall off the page


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

applesmom said:


> I'm sure there are many wonderful goldendoodles out there. There are also many more horrible representatives of the so called breed. And possibly quite a few that wound up being euthanized shortly after birth due to lack of desired type.
> 
> There are many wonderful heinz 57 mixes out there too. However neither one has the ability to reproduce themselves uniformly. It takes many generations to develop a breed that can consistently reproduce true to type.


No one is trying to create a Goldendoodle breed.

Why do you think there might be "possibly quite a few that wound up being euthanized shortly after birth due to lack of desired type"?


----------



## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> No one is trying to create a Goldendoodle breed.
> 
> Why do you think there might be "possibly quite a few that wound up being euthanized shortly after birth due to lack of desired type"?


If they're intention isn't to consider them a breed then why refer to them as goldendoodles and not just plain old poodle/golden mixes like the shelters do? The answer lies in the cold hard cash in hand to be made by the current goldendoodle fad.

Well let's see; since they're combining two breeds that share a good number of health problems, that could be one reason. Another could be pups with Golden Retriever style coats, undesirable coloring or other undesireable physical characteristics. 

Can't imagine that anyone would be foolish enough to pay a thousand dollars or more for a black or long coated mixed breed when they obviously don't look like anything like the non shedding/non allergenic Goldendoodles that bring in the big bucks.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

applesmom said:


> There are many wonderful heinz 57 mixes out there too. However neither one has the ability to reproduce themselves uniformly. It takes many generations to develop a breed that can consistently reproduce true to type.


Yes it does take many generations to develop a breed, and I see the "Australian Labradoodle" as a developing breed. How many more generations it may take is yet to be seen, and I'm very happy haveing one of these dogs.

Consistently reproduce true to type can be a rather lengthy discussion, and where I see some registered pure bred dog as not true to type, and when I see some breeds say like the recognized breed Chinese Crested - Natures Chinese Puzzle well I start thinking is that breed consistently reproduce true to type, and where I found this interesting reading with some photos via this link:-
http://www.shikadin.ourdogs.net/pages/ccpuzzle.pdf
.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i am interested in doing what is best for their health first...their conformation second.


I am going to weigh in here. Health includes structural soundness. A good breeder cares about health first and that INCLUDES conformation because CORRECT conformation should insure structural health and structual longevity. 

Years ago I went to a seminar given by Deb Bennett, Phd. She sutdied the structure of horse conformation based in physics and came up with some interesting things to look for to have a horse that was structurally built as sound as a Roman Bridge. Her entire structural analysis was based in the mathematical relationships between weight carrying and movement as supplied by physics formulas and mechanics. Horses conformed according to her ideas live long and useful lives working well into their 20's and doing so soundly.

When you state that conformation is secondary to health you are very very wrong. Structural soundness, which is the basis for good conformation, will insure a lot more years from a dog than lack of good conformation. 

Now, do all breeders take into account the show ring AND the structural longevity of their dogs? Some do and some don't. I say that the truly responsible ones.. the ones who love the breed and care for its future.. absolutely do. BYB's and Puppy Mills only care about producing animals to sell (and that includes doodle breeders.. sorry.. because the stock they use is NOT from reputable breeders.. if it was they would never allow those animals to be bred outside their breed for a cross). 

As far as outcrossing to prevent genetic fading or undesirable traits.. well, most dog breeds have plenty of out cross genetics within the breed. They are populous. Horses are not so lucky.. If you get a popular stallion that produces winners and lines of winners on the track (prepotency) you get a LOT of that breeding represented in race horses. Right now there is a LOT of Seattle Slew represented in the Thoroughbred and Storm Cat is pretty prevalent too. Are their out crosses still available as opposed to line breeding? Yes there are.. Do those crosses produce horses that win? Not necessarily. Are their breeders concerned enough for the Thoroughbred to use them? You Betcha! Are the line-breds of these two popular stallions sound? Yes.. they have to be because racing is so demanding if they were not they would not win. BTW this is LINE BREEDING which is different than IN BREEDING which is differnt than OUT CROSSING. 

There are other species that truly are in trouble for lack of a gene pool. The Florida Panther (a sub species of the North American Cougar) is an example. Siberian tigers are close. Jaguars are very close. Snow Leopards are as well. Bengal tigers in the zoo population need some fresh genes.

So, before you get all excited (well, I am too late saying this.. from the tone of this thread... ) most dog breeds have a pretty large genetic pool to draw from. Are there undesirable traits in these pure bred gene pools? Yes. However, crossing out does not eliminate the trait.. the trait is still there.. and can become prevalent even among the out crosses.. it my be hidden for a few generatins, but it doesn't disappear if either parent is a crrier. Some of the offspring will have it. It isn't "gone."

One such trait that has become as prevalent in out crosses (mixed breed dogs) is hip and elbow displaysia. It is as common in mixed breds as it is in pure breds. 

The only way to eliminate an undesirable trait is to breed animals that do not have that trait in their genetic make up. The problem is, we cannot know other than thru observation of the phenotype. So, a good breeder will use phenotype and generations of animals that do not have an undesirable trait in there phenotypes in an attempt to breed animals without the gene for the undesirable trait. If we can someday do genetic testing for some of these traits, there will be a shot at eliminating them. In the meantime, phenotype is all we have. 

BTW a recessive gene is not always bad and a dominant gene is not always good. Do you know that the gene for humans to have webbing between their fingers is a dominant gene? Most of us don't have webbing between our fingers and so therefore most of us carry the pure recessive genetic for un webbed hands.


----------



## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Yes it does take many generations to develop a breed, and I see the "Australian Labradoodle" as a developing breed. How many more generations it may take is yet to be seen, and I'm very happy haveing one of these dogs.
> 
> Consistently reproduce true to type can be a rather lengthy discussion, and where I see some registered pure bred dog as not true to type, and when I see some breeds say like the recognized breed Chinese Crested - Natures Chinese Puzzle well I start thinking is that breed consistently reproduce true to type, and where I found this interesting reading with some photos via this link:-
> http://www.shikadin.ourdogs.net/pages/ccpuzzle.pdf
> .


I agree that if they stay on the right path the Australian Labradoodle may one day become a recognized breed. Other crosses could someday be recognized too; but they'll have to do much much more than breed two purebreds of different breeds and slap a designer name on the first generatiion of offspring.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Quincy said:


> Consistently reproduce true to type can be a rather lengthy discussion, and where I see some registered pure bred dog as not true to type, and when I see some breeds say like the recognized breed Chinese Crested - Natures Chinese Puzzle well I start thinking is that breed consistently reproduce true to type, and where I found this interesting reading with some photos via this link:-
> http://www.shikadin.ourdogs.net/pages/ccpuzzle.pdf
> .


My Icesis is like the middle dog on the left, in that article. She needs weekly haircuts, lol! 
The way the hairless gene works in Cresteds, you never know what hair pattern, or how much hair, a puppy will get. You can breed two 'true' hairlesses, and get a litter of Puffs! It's really very interesting how their genes work. They're such a fascinating breed!

Of course, most of the dogs you see in Shows are the 'hairy' hairlesses... because they tend to look flashier. Which annoys the folks who say the dogs should be TRUE hairless only -- but it's really not as simple to get them that way naturally, lol!

...Now, you got me ranting about Cresties! (It's easy to do, lol!) Sorry! =P


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Mycathinks hesadog said:


> ugh... I don't even know where to start chiming in on this one...
> 
> can we just start another pit bull thread and let this one fall off the page


Maybe you'd like to "find the 'Pit Bull'" via this link:-
http://www.secondchanceforpets.com/findthepitbull/index.htm
.



Pai said:


> ...Now, you got me ranting about Cresties! (It's easy to do, lol!) Sorry! =P


No need to say sorry, and I liked watching them in the show ring and later saying hello to them 
.


----------



## Ronda (Jul 18, 2007)

If you get on Portland Craigslist, almost any day of the week, approximately 75% PLUS of the dumped dogs are pits and pit mixes. I have radical feelings/beliefs about byb's and mills; so radical that I am not going to say exactly what I think we should do to deal with it, because it would just cause a huge fight. I will say however that since HUMANS are creating domestic animals, who are dependent on us, we owe it to them to take care of them. Ignorance/greed/immaturity should not be an excuse for exploiting animals. 

I agree with what people here have said about 'designer dogs'. I swear people lost their common sense about 20 years ago. IT IS CALLED A MUTT. 

I thought I'd link this video for anyone who hasn't seen it. 

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/dealingdogs/


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Quincy said:


> Maybe you'd like to "find the 'Pit Bull'" via this link:-
> http://www.secondchanceforpets.com/findthepitbull/index.htm
> .
> 
> ...


Cresties are really my 'true love' out of all the breeds It's funny how a breed can do that to you -- you just become a total nut about all aspects of them! =)


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Pai said:


> Cresties are really my 'true love' out of all the breeds It's funny how a breed can do that to you -- you just become a total nut about all aspects of them! =)


I think quite a few of us here on this forum can relate to that 
.



Ronda said:


> I agree with what people here have said about 'designer dogs'. I swear people lost their common sense about 20 years ago. IT IS CALLED A MUTT.


Nothing new under the sun. Pugs and Japanese Chins were brought back to England from China by the military and traders after the China Boxer Rebellion, Queen Victoria liked these dogs particularly the Pug and so did many others and where heaps of cross breeding happened where breeders made $$$. Yes these brachiocephalic muzzle breeds were even crossed with Cavaliers and which later became known as the "King Charles Spaniels" or in the US known as "English Toy Spaniels", so popular was this that the Cavalier ceased to exist as a breed. And the use of the word Mutt is also nothing new under the sun. 
.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

applesmom said:


> If they're intention isn't to consider them a breed then why refer to them as goldendoodles and not just plain old poodle/golden mixes like the shelters do? The answer lies in the cold hard cash in hand to be made by the current goldendoodle fad.
> 
> Well let's see; since they're combining two breeds that share a good number of health problems, that could be one reason. Another could be pups with Golden Retriever style coats, undesirable coloring or other undesireable physical characteristics.
> 
> Can't imagine that anyone would be foolish enough to pay a thousand dollars or more for a black or long coated mixed breed when they obviously don't look like anything like the non shedding/non allergenic Goldendoodles that bring in the big bucks.


Golden doodle puppies are bred from GR and white/cream SP. They range from white, to cream, to a dark copper. They are always solid, never have any black. Their coats range from wavy to curly to woolly, never wire.

As puppies, you can not reliably tell the adult color or coat texture, or shedding characteristics, so you could not pick out less desirable puppies even if you wanted to.

There would never be a need to euthanize a health gd puppy. At worse they would be adopted instantly at any shelter, most likely by the staff or benefactors before the public had a chance.

You might want to learn even a little about the subject before engaging in speculation.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

MollyDoggie said:


> Golden doodle puppies are bred from GR and white/cream SP. They range from white, to cream, to a dark copper. They are always solid, *never* have any black. Their coats range from wavy to curly to woolly, never wire.





> You might want to learn even a little about the subject before engaging in speculation.


Sounds like good advice. Google "black goldendoodle" and tell us when we should believe "never" is the truth.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> Golden doodle puppies are bred from GR and white/cream SP. They range from white, to cream, to a dark copper. They are always solid, never have any black. Their coats range from wavy to curly to woolly, never wire.
> 
> As puppies, you can not reliably tell the adult color or coat texture, or shedding characteristics, so you could not pick out less desirable puppies even if you wanted to.
> 
> ...


This too is speculation, no?



Curbside Prophet said:


> Sounds like good advice. Google "black goldendoodle" and tell us when we should believe "never" is the truth.


ohh okay his is better. go with his.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Sounds like good advice. Google "black goldendoodle" and tell us when we should believe "never" is the truth.



You can intentionally create black goldendoodles by using a black poodle. The norm is to use a white or cream poodle. That is what is expected when one refers to a goldendoodle, what is the most desirable, and what the majority of breeders do.
When I refer to a goldendoodle, I am referring to a cross with a white or cream poodle.



4dogs3cats said:


> This too is speculation, no?


Yes, but I know more than a little about the subject of doodles in shelters.


----------



## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> Golden doodle puppies are bred from GR and white/cream SP. They range from white, to cream, to a dark copper. They are always solid, never have any black. Their coats range from wavy to curly to woolly, never wire.
> 
> As puppies, you can not reliably tell the adult color or coat texture, or shedding characteristics, so you could not pick out less desirable puppies even if you wanted to.
> 
> ...


It's very rare that I speak out about any subject unless I'm fully prepared to back it up! The inheritance of coat colors in dogs is a subject I'm quite comfortable with. A cream poodle can produce black puppies even when bred with a Golden. Some Goldens still carry a recessive gene for black since there are black dogs in their background.



> Goldendoodles come in a variety of colors. What many people assume is that they are all GOLD! Nope! A goldendoodle can actually be many colors! Why? Because the Poodle has such a wide variety of color genes in its genetic scope. Goldendoodles can be of any color and have any marking. There is no such thing as a "rare" colored Goldendoodle dog. The most popular color in a goldendoodle is apricot...with cream being second.....red being third and we have found that Black is the least popular color of all colors in a goldendoodle and We can not figure out why! A black goldendoodle (nicknamed "Nictendoodle" by our doodle world) is very gorgeous! They are the very same dog as the lighter colored doodles. It is very sad to see so many people disregard a dog just because of its color or marking.


 http://searchwarp.com/swa1442.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/goldendoodlecoatcolors.htm












MollyDoggie said:


> Golden doodle puppies are bred from GR and white/cream SP. They range from white, to cream, to a dark copper. They are always solid, never have any black. Their coats range from wavy to curly to woolly, never wire.
> 
> *As puppies, you can not reliably tell the adult color or coat texture, or shedding characteristics, so you could not pick out less desirable puppies even if you wanted to. *
> 
> ...


BTW The variation of coat colors on this litter of goldendoodles leave little to speculation. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/goldendoodlecoatcolors.htm


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

applesmom said:


> It's very rare that I speak out about any subject unless I'm fully prepared to back it up! The inheritance of coat colors in dogs is a subject I'm quite comfortable with. A cream poodle can produce black puppies even when bred with a Golden. Some Goldens still carry a recessive gene for black since there are black dogs in their background.
> 
> http://searchwarp.com/swa1442.htm
> 
> ...



OK, I'll concede I am wrong about goldendoodle coloring.

Do you still believe that goldendoodle breeders euthanize puppies that are the wrong color? How about you assertion that goldendoodle breeders are trying to create a breed.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

applesmom said:


> A cream poodle can produce black puppies even when bred with a Golden. Some Goldens still carry a recessive gene for black since there are black dogs in their background.


I tend to go along with that. By the way, my Quincy appear visually as a cream (white) dog. However genetically he is an apricot cream, carrying the red and chocolate recessive genes. He has black nose and eye pigment, but hiding underneath is a recessive chocolate allie.
.


----------



## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> OK, I'll concede I am wrong about goldendoodle coloring.
> 
> Do you still believe that goldendoodle breeders euthanize puppies that are the wrong color? How about you assertion that goldendoodle breeders are trying to create a breed.


Yes I do believe *some* goldendoodle breeders euthanize puppies through their own ignorance and because there isn't a huge market for* black*, *golden*doodles. (oxymoron) 

I know I'm repeating myself, but if they didn't *consider* them a *breed*; they'd call them what they really are poodle/golden mixes. On the other hand they aren't really attempting to create a breed since they're not going about it in the right way.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

applesmom said:


> Yes I do believe *some* goldendoodle breeders euthanize puppies through their own ignorance and because there isn't a huge market for* black*, *golden*doodles. (oxymoron)
> 
> I know I'm repeating myself, but if they didn't *consider* them a *breed*; they'd call them what they really are poodle/golden mixes. On the other hand they aren't really attempting to create a breed since they're not going about it in the right way.


You have absolutely zero evidence or information to even suggest that doodle breeders are anymore likely to euthanize healthy puppies then you or I would. You are suggesting that doodle breeders, buy their vary nature, are inherently more cruel and less humane than other dog breeders simply because you don't like the idea of doodle breeding.

If doodle people use the term breed, it is simply because is less cumbersome to use then more correct terminology. We all know they are mixes. The simple fact that every F1 or F1B doodle has one poodle parent makes that pretty obvious.

Why shouldn't we call the dog we love what we want to call it?


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

The dog breeding world is a very complex scene where over the years I've seen heaps of things even in relation to coat color. Say take for example the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, where a breeder maybe suddenly surprised to find Chocolate pups in a litter, the Breed Standard does NOT mention Chocolate, now it's the breeder's decision on what to do in maybe to hide the fact by maybe euthanize or maybe quietly find a good home. Well I know a breeder of that breed and who openly admits and finds good homes for such pups, and here is one grown up and from their website:-








.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

I have been told that white boxers are sometimes euthanized. No idea if it's true.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> I have been told that white boxers are sometimes euthanized. No idea if it's true.


I really don't know much about Boxers, but I do know that it seemed to be accepted in the dog breeding fraternity to crossbreed them with Pembroke Welsh Corgi who have bobtails to produce a "Bobtail Boxer" where it wasn't long before they were recognised by The Kennel Club. Those interested here is a link to site for information:-
http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html
.


----------



## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

MollyDoggie said:


> You have absolutely zero evidence or information to even suggest that doodle breeders are anymore likely to euthanize healthy puppies then you or I would. You are suggesting that doodle breeders, buy their vary nature, are inherently more cruel and less humane than other dog breeders simply because you don't like the idea of doodle breeding.
> 
> If doodle people use the term breed, it is simply because is less cumbersome to use then more correct terminology. We all know they are mixes. The simple fact that every F1 or F1B doodle has one poodle parent makes that pretty obvious.
> 
> Why shouldn't we call the dog we love what we want to call it?


I never said doodle breeders were any *more* likely to euthanize puppies than anyone else. There are breeders in *every* breed that euthanize puppies that don't fit the standard for color or those that are born with birth defects. Doodle breeders can call their mixed breed dogs anything they choose. But that isn't going to legitimize their breeding practices to those who are opposed to deliberately mixing breeds.

Some boxer breeders euthanize white puppies while others place them in pet homes. Some Dalmatian breeders euthanize deaf puppies others place them in pet homes. Some breeders euthanize mismarks others place them in pet homes. Those who do euthanize aren't likely to admit it to their puppy buyers, on a dog forum or anywhere else.


----------



## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

applesmom said:


> Some boxer breeders euthanize white puppies while others place them in pet homes. Some Dalmatian breeders euthanize deaf puppies others place them in pet homes. Some breeders euthanize mismarks others place them in pet homes. Those who do euthanize aren't likely to admit it to their puppy buyers, on a dog forum or anywhere else.


And a lot of them dump them in shelters or on rescue. I have a good friend that runs a very active boxer rescue in the midwest. Many many of the dogs and pups they take in are deaf. 

Yellow is a disqualifying fault in my breed, but I don't know of any Flatcoat breeders in the US that will euthanize them if they show up in their litters. They are simply placed in pet homes and spayed/neutered.


----------



## zannie (Mar 12, 2008)

every breed has a rescue and there are bybs for every breed so yes alot of dogs end up in shelters or rescues ,as far as killing puppies who are unsaleable or don't meet the critera of a breeder yes it happens.i have a pug/beegle mix who was (as the moron who bred them said)was unsaleable cuz he had a overbite and his legs arent right so he was gonna clock him over the head so i took him in and no i didnt pay a cent for him i wasnt even gonna keep him,just get him healthy and find him a good home that was two years ago i wouldnt give him up now for anything.
so i feel what ever dog you go to a breeder or a pet store for check them out, after all they can only stay in buisness cuz people support them.
as far as the doodle debate ,i hate it that people pay money to people who are only in it for a buck its stupid and makes me mad like we need anymore dogs coming in this world ,lets take care of the ones we have first and yes it goes for ant byb any breed..........


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

zannie said:


> every breed has a rescue and there are bybs for every breed so yes alot of dogs end up in shelters or rescues ,as far as killing puppies who are unsaleable or don't meet the critera of a breeder yes it happens.i have a pug/beegle mix who was (as the moron who bred them said)was unsaleable cuz he had a overbite and his legs arent right so he was gonna clock him over the head so i took him in and no i didnt pay a cent for him i wasnt even gonna keep him,just get him healthy and find him a good home that was two years ago i wouldnt give him up now for anything.
> so i feel what ever dog you go to a breeder or a pet store for check them out, after all they can only stay in buisness cuz people support them.
> as far as the doodle debate ,i hate it that people pay money to people who are only in it for a buck its stupid and makes me mad like we need anymore dogs coming in this world ,lets take care of the ones we have first and yes it goes for ant byb any breed..........



Absolutely! A Doodle, A Poodle, A Golden or any other breed bred by BYB or Millers is adding to the pet over population. I like pure bred dogs but I have managed to find them in shelters or rescues and still have the worlds best dog/pet for me. There are simply so many dogs to chose from in rescue.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Quincy said:


> Maybe you'd like to "find the 'Pit Bull'" via this link:-
> http://www.secondchanceforpets.com/findthepitbull/index.htm
> .
> 
> .


I won on the first try! 

What I need is a 'find the doodle' one.



MollyDoggie said:


> There would never be a need to euthanize a health gd puppy. * At worse they would be adopted instantly at any shelter, most likely by the staff or benefactors before the public had a chance.*
> 
> You might want to learn even a little about the subject before engaging in speculation.


I think that's speculation right there...



MollyDoggie said:


> Yes, but I know more than a little about the subject of doodles in shelters.


How? What makes you such the 'expert'? Care to share where this experience with shelters comes from?



wabanafcr said:


> Yellow is a disqualifying fault in my breed, but I don't know of any Flatcoat breeders in the US that will euthanize them if they show up in their litters. They are simply placed in pet homes and spayed/neutered.


We get mismarks a lot too. My breeder bred one recently, it's the first she's ever had. It's a solid white papillon with brown ears only. She's going to be sold to a pet home.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> We get mismarks a lot too. My breeder bred one recently, it's the first she's ever had. It's a solid white papillon with brown ears only. She's going to be sold to a pet home.


omg she sounds aDORABLE!


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I think that's speculation right there...


Agreed, AND it's a pretty ridiculous one at that.



> We get mismarks a lot too. My breeder bred one recently, it's the first she's ever had. It's a solid white papillon with brown ears only. She's going to be sold to a pet home.


Ooh, that makes me think of common markings in piebald Siberians (which I happen to love). I bet she's adorable.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

4dogs3cats said:


> omg she sounds aDORABLE!


I should have pics of all FOUR puppies in a few weeks when I go to visit them.  

Lets see, there's the little mismark... then there's one marked almost identically to Rose with the solid head and little bit of white on the muzzle.... one has a mediumish crooked blaze and the last one has a big, wide straight blaze. I can't wait to meet them!

Mismarks can be REALLY cute.

http://www.pupcity.com/images/adpics/06287174005611_1.jpg

http://www.braylorspapillons.com/imagesnewhomes/RockyNewHome1.jpg

http://www.sandridgepaps.com/images/thumbs/papillon-puppy-0058.jpg


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Quincy said:


> I really don't know much about Boxers, but I do know that it seemed to be accepted in the dog breeding fraternity to crossbreed them with Pembroke Welsh Corgi who have bobtails to produce a "Bobtail Boxer" where it wasn't long before they were recognised by The Kennel Club. Those interested here is a link to site for information:-
> http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html
> .


Hang on here- it's not fratnerity or ANYTHING like that. This was done ONCE, by a guy who is actually a geneticist- who also happens to be a breeder of extremely nice boxers in the UK, Bruce Cattanch. This was done with the pre-approval of the kennel club and the breed club in order to ensure that the resulting offspring, once bred back to type, would be accepted (and the results along the way were all very thouroughly documented. 

The Dalmatian Backcross project went through the same process, but a change of the membership in the DCA board caused the whole thing to get all political and weird.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I should have pics of all FOUR puppies in a few weeks when I go to visit them.
> 
> Lets see, there's the little mismark... then there's one marked almost identically to Rose with the solid head and little bit of white on the muzzle.... one has a mediumish crooked blaze and the last one has a big, wide straight blaze. I can't wait to meet them!
> 
> ...


Oh wow they ARE cute!! As much as I currently want an english mastiff...I have ALWAYS loved paps and I can tell you with confidance a pap will be my next dog


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hehe, I am such a bad influence.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

lol I have always really loved them. I am worried about getting one though..... I know you and one other person with paps... She has 2. It seems like you cant just get one


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You can't. Almost every person I know with them has a few. Most people are also never without one once they get their first.

Let me put it this way... we got our first 4 years ago... We have three now. 

And we've gotten a puppy out of every litter our breeder has had in the past 4 years except this newest one.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> Hang on here- it's not fratnerity or ANYTHING like that. This was done ONCE, by a guy who is actually a geneticist- who also happens to be a breeder of extremely nice boxers in the UK, Bruce Cattanch. This was done with the pre-approval of the kennel club and the breed club in order to ensure that the resulting offspring, once bred back to type, would be accepted (and the results along the way were all very thouroughly documented.


Yes it was ONE guy who cross bred his Boxers with Pembroke Welsh Corgi, and this with the full approval of The Kennel Club, and I gave the link so everyone can have a read of exactly what happened where he produced "Bobtail Boxers".

I heard that the Boxer fraternity also approved, particularly so in the countries that passed laws banning cosmetic tail docking. In those countries I heard there was a demand for his "Bobtail Boxers", this not only by pet owners but also by those who breed and show Boxers. Do you know if he sold any "Bobtail Boxers" for showing and breeding, as I feel that other breeders due to tail docking laws may want to breed "Bobtail Boxers"?
.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

alright- I will make the honorary 400th post. 
How I see this is that opportunistic so in so's are mixing breeds on the basis of a fad with no clue how the genetics change and seldom does the coat reproduce why they did the breed in the first place.. No genetic testings on parents ( something done in " breeds" ) under the criteria well we do not have too because its a mix.. well duh- it is a mix..


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> No genetic testings on parents ( something done in " breeds" ) under the criteria well we do not have too because its a mix.. well duh- it is a mix..


Irrigardless of what dogs are being bred, responsible breeders will do appropriate hereditary disease testing. By the way, amongst the "breeds" on this list I noticed *poos* and *doodles*, and I feel that list will continue to gradually expand:-
http://www.optigen.com/opt9_test.html
.


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

borzoimom said:


> alright- I will make the honorary 400th post.
> How I see this is that opportunistic so in so's are mixing breeds on the basis of a fad with no clue how the genetics change and seldom does the coat reproduce why they did the breed in the first place.. No genetic testings on parents ( something done in " breeds" ) under the criteria well we do not have too because its a mix.. well duh- it is a mix..



http://www.goldendoodles.com/breeders.htm


While you're at it:

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/28144-doodled-out-literally-death-17.html#post287973


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Quincy said:


> Yes it was ONE guy who cross bred his Boxers with Pembroke Welsh Corgi, and this with the full approval of The Kennel Club, and I gave the link so everyone can have a read of exactly what happened where he produced "Bobtail Boxers".
> 
> I heard that the Boxer fraternity also approved, particularly so in the countries that passed laws banning cosmetic tail docking. In those countries I heard there was a demand for his "Bobtail Boxers", this not only by pet owners but also by those who breed and show Boxers. Do you know if he sold any "Bobtail Boxers" for showing and breeding, as I feel that other breeders due to tail docking laws may want to breed "Bobtail Boxers"?
> .


I believe the vast majority of the dogs he's bred- and it's not many- have stayed in his own breeding program and those of his close associates. The demand doesn't really matter to show breeders- they/you breed because THEY want something- not because there is demand. I already have 4 homes lined up for potential pups from Lizzie- none of them will be available to 'the general public. This is for a litter that is still over 18 months/two years away and dependent on her passing her health screens.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

wvasko said:


> I am primarily a negative motivation type trainer. .


'
what exactly is that?

sounds politically incorrect.



Dogstar said:


> If you think the dalmatian is just some cute spots, you have NO FRELLING CLUE what makes this breed.


the reason i can't have a conversation or debate with you is that you have a knack of totally misunderstanding anything i say.

i was saying good breeders can carefully add some non-dalmations to dalmations, to fix health problems, and nevetheless maintain their dalmation skills and nature.
particularly by adding dogs like pointers, which were used to create the dalmation in the first place.)

it is the spots which would be most in danger to such an enterprise.

and the percentages of bilateral deafness is much higher than you said (and the dalmation club policy is to cull them immediately)...

and you are totally downplaying the significance of deafness in one ear, which is quite significant.



Elana55 said:


> I am going to weigh in here. Health includes structural soundness. A good breeder cares about health first and that INCLUDES conformation because CORRECT conformation should insure structural health and structual longevity.


is the conformation standards of the bulldog for the health of the bulldog?

that is an example of conformation being primary over health.

you might say that this is an exception.

i just think it is an extreme example of a problem, which exists to some extent, in some details, by many breeds.

there are times that a standard is in conflict to health.
so which way do you choose?

if a conformation standard is important to health, then great.

that is why i say health should be #1.


----------



## Rainbow.Paws (May 7, 2008)

*Okay..Can I squeeze in here for a moment and ask a question?*

Why is it that because a person is against the BREEDING of mutts they are accused of hating that mix? I've seen several comments like that throughout the thread and I am trying to understand the logic. 

I love mutts, own mutts, and work with mutts. There is no breed or mix of dog I hate (no dog actually). I've met several doodles (various mixes including a labradoodles), all were in shelters, all lovely, just like the mutts on either side. I have seen many a doodle in euthanasia lists and know they are often put to sleep just like ever other dog who's time is out. How does this add up to doodle hating? I don't support Schnauhuaha (schnauzer x Chihuahua) or Maltipoo (maltese x poodle) breeding..I don't support breeding mixes.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Rainbow.Paws said:


> *Okay..Can I squeeze in here for a moment and ask a question?*
> 
> Why is it that because a person is against the BREEDING of mutts they are accused of hating that mix? I've seen several comments like that throughout the thread and I am trying to understand the logic.
> 
> I love mutts, own mutts, and work with mutts.


i don't know what post you are reacting to.

but here is the problem with your attitude, as i see it.

you define a mutt as a mix of two-purebreeds...which is ok in some contexts...but it can be misleading if you use it to make certain points.

what goldendoodle advocates claim, is that there are certain CONSISTENT results when mixing the golden with the poodle.

there is not consistent size or color.
there is a wide range of shed trait...although it seems there is a higher percentage of lower shed than most dogs, and many like Oinest that have very low shed.

however, the lovable, goofy, smart and friendly personality is very consistent.
and there are many who love them, more than any purebreed.

and for this level of consistency, which is even higher with better breeders, they cannot be compared to ordinary mutts.

good breeding does not equal PURE breeding...that is the false assumption by so many on this forum.


----------



## Rainbow.Paws (May 7, 2008)

dog-man said:


> i don't know what post you are reacting to.
> 
> but here is the problem with your attitude, as i see it.
> 
> ...


You didn't answer my question. 

I am well aware that many love their mixes more than purebreeds- most people I know do. I am fine with that and I am fine with dogs themselves. A mutt, mix, or product of two breeds is the same thing. There are differences when you are looking for a few key qualities and holding onto it but they are still mutts. I never said pure= good, there are just as many people breeding poor quality, deformed and unhealthy dogs with no mix. I Did not ask for your definition of a mutt or why you or others love them.

as for which posts I cannot recall which of the 21 pages they were on but two of the screen names I remember were mr. pooch & MollyDoggie(sp).


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> I believe the vast majority of the dogs he's bred- and it's not many- have stayed in his own breeding program and those of his close associates. The demand doesn't really matter to show breeders- they/you breed because THEY want something- not because there is demand.


In the places where authoraties have turned up at dog shows to check dog's tails, do you think that some show breeders there may want something such as bobtail dogs which are legal where NO taildocking laws have been broken.

Maybe some show breeders at this place may want something, and I noticed on this webpage bobtails mentioned plus a card being made available:-
http://www.dogsvictoria.org.au/Content.asp?ID=246&SubID=324
.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Rainbow.Paws said:


> A mutt, mix, or product of two breeds is the same thing.
> There are differences when you are looking for a few key qualities and holding onto it but they are still mutts. I never said pure= good, there are just as many people breeding poor quality, deformed and unhealthy dogs with no mix. I Did not ask for your definition of a mutt or why you or others love them.
> (sp).


ok, explain to me, what point you want to make by calling them mutts.

most people here, when they say that, they want to say "why not go to a shelter if all you are doing is getting a mutt?", or something like that.

but what is your point?


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

I cannot speak for rainbow paws...
But I would use mutts..because well, they are.... but then....oh well.


But thats a whole arugument right there, huh?


----------



## Rainbow.Paws (May 7, 2008)

dog-man said:


> ok, explain to me, what point you want to make by calling them mutts.
> 
> most people here, when they say that, they want to say "why not go to a shelter if all you are doing is getting a mutt?", or something like that.
> 
> but what is your point?


Why do I need a point to call something like it is, the way I see it? I think its pretty obvious I advocate for rescuing mixed breeds (shelter, stray, dump..etc.) rather than breeding. Why would I need to say that or say "OMG please go to a shelter!" when I stated in my first post I am not for breeding mixes. You did not answer my question and started going on about my attitude and the use of the word "mutt". I simply replied trying to explain that to me, and damn near everyone i've ever chatted with or met, any mixed breed is a mutt in my eyes, and the word is not a negative one (i've learned that after growing up myself).


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Rainbow.Paws said:


> Why do I need a point to call something like it is, the way I see it? I think its pretty obvious I advocate for rescuing mixed breeds (shelter, stray, dump..etc.) rather than breeding. Why would I need to say that or say "OMG please go to a shelter!" when I stated in my first post I am not for breeding mixes. You did not answer my question and started going on about my attitude and the use of the word "mutt". I simply replied trying to explain that to me, and damn near everyone i've ever chatted with or met, any mixed breed is a mutt in my eyes, and the word is not a negative one (i've learned that after growing up myself).


your question was why some particular people might have given you an attitude you didn't think was fair.
i can't answer for them.

if you have a more generalized question, then i can have a discussion with you, if you'd like.


----------



## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Rainbow.Paws said:


> A mutt, mix, or product of two breeds is the same thing. There are differences when you are looking for a few key qualities and holding onto it but they are still mutts.


If you like to use the word mutts, then heaps of pure bred dog breeds descendants were mutts.

If you read the articles via this link, this person bred his Boxers with Pembroke Welsh Corgis, do you think he bred mutts?
http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html
.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> I've asked for links to good goldendoodle breeders before but no one ever shows me.


Well - I haven't been here for a few days and obviously missed a lot. Haven't even looked at any other threads yet as this one took forever to read. Dog-man you have made some very good points. Also noticed the OP didn't respond to the questions asked.

The link below is a list of breeders considered 'premium' as they are required to have health testing on their dogs. The person I purchased Molly from is on this list and as I posted earlier I believe she is reputable and has agreed to reimburse me $700. for the dental work required to repair damage to the tooth buds caused by her vet extracting 2 teeth when Molly was a pup. There was no dispute and her vet agreed after reading the specialists report the damage was caused by him. 

http://www.goldendoodle-labradoodle.org/breeder-directory.html


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> Well - I haven't been here for a few days and obviously missed a lot. Haven't even looked at any other threads yet as this one took forever to read. Dog-man you have made some very good points. Also noticed the OP didn't respond to the questions asked.


Yep, I may not agree with dog man..but he has made some interesting points. 
And I do think the OP of a thread should at least reply to the thread...especially a thread like this! lol


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> however, the lovable, goofy, smart and friendly personality is very consistent....and for this level of consistency, which is even higher with better breeders, they cannot be compared to ordinary mutts.
> 
> good breeding does not equal PURE breeding...that is the false assumption by so many on this forum.


I've had the great fortune of assisting our shelter's behaviorist on a few consults. I was looking through my notes and I found one for a golden/poodle cross. The question was never asked if this was a "Goldendoodle", nor was that information volunteered by the owner. 

This dog had been friendly with all dogs in the past, went to a puppy school, attended obedience classes, frequented a dog park regularly, and paid weekly visits to doggy daycare. A proactive dog owner for sure. During our visit the dog showed no signs of conflict. This dog decided (not really a decision on the dog's part), however, to one day chase and kill bite a Chihuahua at the dog park. 

Bad parentage? Bad nurturing? Or, clearly predatory drift? The dog had only exhibited this behavior with rubber squeaky toys, and within the week prior to the incident. 

It's been said before (form follows function) but never answered by mixed breeders with any clear resolution, what is the function of a golden doodle? Lovable, goofy, low shedding, allergy friendly, or just friendly in general, aren't functions. These are subjective qualities that are NOT defined by behavior. They are your interpretations of behavior (which are generally wrong), a chance on genotype, and a preference (which is unique and specific only to you). Function does NOT follow form. It doesn't work that way for mixed breeders or purebred breeders alike. 

You've been claiming all along that the problem is with PURE breeding. Implying that purity is defined by a small and limited gene pool. This is inaccurate. The purity is in behavior. So to say the problem with PURE breeding *is* consistent behavior *is* the exact argument you're trying to make for mixed breeding. I find this contradictory to what you're advocating. Form follows function. 

So, if health *is* your #1 priority, it should be clear what a mixed breed's function is, right? It shouldn't be based on what flavor coffee you want this week or it shall be confused with a verse straight out of the BYB's big book of excuses, right? 

As I said in the beginning of this thread, the blame for dogdom's woes aren't just those of "doodle" breeders - it's a breeder organization problem, and the visionaries of today's "doodle" are no better assembled than BYB's. The genetic advances that could be realized will always suffer to the current structure unless a communal will is gathered to change the organization of breeders. Until that happens, back on the hamster wheel we go I guess.


----------



## MarleysGirl (Apr 11, 2008)

Rainbow.Paws said:


> *Okay..Can I squeeze in here for a moment and ask a question?*
> 
> Why is it that because a person is against the BREEDING of mutts they are accused of hating that mix? I've seen several comments like that throughout the thread and I am trying to understand the logic.
> 
> I love mutts, own mutts, and work with mutts. There is no breed or mix of dog I hate (no dog actually). I've met several doodles (various mixes including a labradoodles), all were in shelters, all lovely, just like the mutts on either side. I have seen many a doodle in euthanasia lists and know they are often put to sleep just like ever other dog who's time is out. How does this add up to doodle hating? I don't support Schnauhuaha (schnauzer x Chihuahua) or Maltipoo (maltese x poodle) breeding..I don't support breeding mixes.



I can understand how the misinterpretation happens. You do not believe in mixing breeds. You do not think this is a good thing. So, if the world was perfect a mutt wouldnt exist is, what you are saying.
It might not make sense to you, but for those of us that love our mutts very much it can be hard to hear someone saying that their dog shouldnt be in existance. I understand that you may think we are just being a little overly sensitive on the subject, and maybe we are (well me anyways, I cant speak for everyone) but I just cant help what I feel when someone says that the dog I have shouldnt be here.
I also DO understand that you do not hate the mix.
I just wanted to let you know where someone may be coming from when they make an assumption that when you are against mixed breeds you are against the dogs.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Interesting points curbside.. What is the function of this dog baffles me as well. Even non-sporting group, while no longer doing their " function" did at the earlier point. Even a good part of the toy breeds originally had a " function". ( ie alarm dogs indoors after the outside breed made the alarm).Or even if listed as ' just companions". If the " function " of doing this cross is for a hypoallergenic type dog, then why is it hard to reproduce the same on the 2nd generation? While a few in that litter as the generations continue, as long as it doesn't produce in all the pups, its not " making a breed". 
Whether or not a dog " turns into a happy, go lucky dog, good with kids" is hardly the reason for the function of the " breed". - ie a plus in any breed, but hardly defined as a " function". I can not think of any other breed the original reason was for only coat type. Even dogs used in water retrieving the coat is only part of the make up of the dog. Also- even if there is a " hypoallergenic" coat- that doesnt stop the rest of the " allergies". As one person said as they surrendered their dog at the shelter- " my child is still allergic to the dog because the dog gets pollen on their coat.." Well duh- dogs have to go outside- so unless the allergy is to dogs- and ONLY to dogs..Allergies are very seldom limited to only one item.. 
It has turned into a high priced fad. And at the dogs expense in the long run.
BTW-My point of this thread was not to ' trash mutts/mixed breeds"- I am all for those that adopt from a shelter. The question was along the lines of how the dogs got there to start with. The usery, fad source of money, greed, all for a type of dog that has no other function clearly able to be defined other than the excuse to make more mix breed dogs, in shelters.. The amount of pure bred dogs in shelters is so much lower than mix breeds. All these opportunistic idiots contributing into one thing- there are not enough homes for all the dogs, so why contribute more into the problem??


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I was looking through my notes and I found one for a golden/poodle cross. The question was never asked if this was a "Goldendoodle", nor was that information volunteered by the owner.
> 
> This dog decided (not really a decision on the dog's part), however, to one day chase and kill bite a Chihuahua at the dog park.
> 
> Bad parentage? Bad nurturing? Or, clearly predatory drift? .


this story has no relevance unless you know the breeding background of the dog.

Oinest had once caught a squirrel in his mouth...then let it go, and went into a play crouch....the squirrel was fine.

he caught a large toad, and was carrying it around in his mouth, with its leg sticking out...grossing out everyone in the street (they thought his drool was toad guts)...

turns out the toad was fine...when he finally put it down, it just hopped off.

this is true of all the goldendoodles i have met, which are many...the most gentle, sweet dogs you can meet.
-------------------------



Curbside Prophet said:


> what is the function of a golden doodle? Lovable, goofy, low shedding, allergy friendly, or just friendly in general, aren't functions. These are subjective qualities that are NOT defined by behavior. They are your interpretations of behavior (which are generally wrong), a chance on genotype, and a preference (which is unique and specific only to you).


yes, these ARE functions.

the function of most dogs nowadays is to be a family dog, not a work dog.

i don't give a rat's tushie about obsolete functions of the past.

i want a dog, that is FUN and SAFE (which is includes non-threatening) and CLEAN.

fun is the function...safe and clean allows the fun to be had with minimal problems.

this is not subjective...either these dogs exhibit these behaviors or not.
their personality is different than other dogs.

it is subjective if their personality is your type or not...however, the consistency of personality, from good breeders, is very high.
that is why people choose PUREbreeds.
there are MANY people like me, who agree and love these dogs...IT IS NOT SPECIFIC TO ME.

no guarantee...every dog is an individual...but you increase your chances with a BRED dog.

what is so hard to understand about that?

just use the same arguments you would use for a purebreed dog...that is the point you can't (or refuse) to see.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think fun IS subjective.

I think Esther, who will run non-stop for ten hours, is fun. (Molly thinks so, too.)

My mother thinks her shi-tzu, who sleeps 22 hours/day, is fun.

Both dogs are perfect for their respective owners. (My mother is 96.)

If Oinest is the perfect dog for you, count your blessings, and don't let anyone tell you differently.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

RonE said:


> I think fun IS subjective.
> 
> I think Esther, who will run non-stop for ten hours, is fun. (Molly thinks so, too.)
> 
> ...


yes, but if there is a CONSISTENCY to the type of fun they provide, to the type of personality that they exhibit, then that is BREEDING.

the point i am making is that breeding can include breeding for consistency of personality.
many people here think of it only in terms of phenotype or work ability.


----------



## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

dog-man said:


> the point i am making is that breeding can include breeding for consistency of personality.
> many people here think of it only in terms of phenotype or work ability.


Personality IS part of phenotype. Phenotype alone cannot be the basis of a breeding program, as it is produced in part by environment.

From Merriam-Webster:

_Main Entry:
phe·no·type Listen to the pronunciation of phenotype
Pronunciation:
\ˈfē-nə-ˌtīp\ 
Function:
noun 
Etymology:
German Phänotypus, from Greek phainein to show + typos type
Date:
circa 1911

: the observable properties of an organism that are produced by the interaction of the genotype and the environment
_

Absolutely personality is a big part of any responsible breeder's decision-making process. Temperament is a HUGE issue in my breed (which, BTW, is bred to be fun, happy-go-lucky and outgoing, but I won't claim that they are clean because they love mud and puddles and water and rolling in deer and fox poo and other doggy things), and we take it very seriously.

You keep talking about the nice temperament of goldens...this makes it very clear that you have little real dog experience. Spend some time volunteering at a shelter or working at a boarding kennel and you will find that not all goldens have good temperaments. I've been bitten by more goldens than by any other breed (I've worked in a vet office, at a shelter and at a boarding kennel), and I know that there is a serious temperament issue with some random-bred goldens. Sadly, the stereotypical golden temperament doesn't carry across the entire breed.


----------



## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

LOL Ron...that's very true...
22 hours a day sleeping? That's not my idea of fun lol.
Nice post.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> this story has no relevance unless you know the breeding background of the dog.


It was known, but it's not relevant to my point. Whatever combination of parentage you want to make for this dog, kill bite is not a good behavior to exhibit on another dog. 



> Oinest had once caught a squirrel in his mouth...then let it go, and went into a play crouch....the squirrel was fine.
> 
> he caught a large toad, and was carrying it around in his mouth, with its leg sticking out...grossing out everyone in the street (they thought his drool was toad guts)...
> 
> ...


For the sake of dogdom I hope this is true for all golden/poodle crosses, but it's not, and I gave you a documented example of at least one, and I haven't met many golden/poodle crosses. But it's certainly not true of all, and if there were a way to document the behavior of predatory drift it's likely the behavior occurs with the same frequency as it does with golden breeders or poodle breeders. The limiting factor being the same, the breeder. 



> yes, these ARE functions.


You'll never get it. You're too biased to see that "friendly" is lumping behaviors that appease only YOU. Lumping behaviors is a bad practice and any breeder who does that is by definition a BYB. 



> the function of most dogs nowadays is to be a family dog, not a work dog.


Whether the dog is labeled a "family" dog of a "working" dog is insignificant to what the dog actually does. Kill bite in a family environment or kill bite in a border collie is bad irregardless of whatever label you want to classify the dog. 



> i don't give a rat's tushie about obsolete functions of the past.


This statement defines your ignorance very well since your dog's genes come from a line of dogs with an "obsolete" function.



> i want a dog, that is FUN and SAFE (which is includes non-threatening) and CLEAN.


Presumably without a kill bite too, right? I'll repeat my point even though you'll never see how it *is* a useful argument that could support a mixed breedings if there were a clear vision - and not your muttled (pun) version of it. Form follows function. 

Fun is relative. I find chase/grab behaviors in my dogs fun. If you have children that may not be your definition of fun. So "fun" tells us nothing about the dog. Safe is also relative and has a component in your ability, so this tells us nothing more. Clean? You've shown us pictures of your dog at the groomer so how clean can he be? Or do you mean by your preference? I'm sorry but no breeder can consistently breed a dog to fit your ability, your preference, or even your expectation level of "fun". Not a one. 



> fun is the function


Again, kill bite is not very fun when you'd rather your dog view a Chihuahua as another dog and not as prey. Behaviors like kill bite drift when a breeder does not test the function of their animal and relies on phenotype or subjective traits. This is true for purebred breeders and mixed bred dogs alike. 



> this is not subjective...either these dogs exhibit these behaviors or not.
> their personality is different than other dogs.


If you're judging dogs on what you consider "friendly" and "clean", thank doG you're not a breeder anyone of us have to deal with. 



> it is subjective if their personality is your type or not...however, the consistency of personality, from good breeders, is very high.


This is laughable. The implication is that a majority of the dogs in a litter will have the same "personality"? Which you agree is subjective? Had you said "dogality" I'm more apt to believe your statement, LOL. 



> that is why people choose PUREbreeds.


Actually, if we're considering the average dog person this is a very wrong statement in so many ways. If this were true there would not be a surplus problem. What people choose for are looks. Then maybe temperament, and health is relative to how "cute" the dog is at the moment of purchase. When they should be choosing a dog for it's behavior (it's function). I've rarely hear a person, other than by those knowledgeable about behavior, say _oh I chose my BC for his parents pear-shaped outrun._ It just doesn't happen that way and this is sad. 



> no guarantee...every dog is an individual...but you increase your chances with a BRED dog.
> 
> what is so hard to understand about that?


I don't understand it for what you just said, "increase your chances." This isn't something breeders should gamble on, and the reason testing for function is an important factor to consistent behavior. But you seem to believe this is a detriment to bred dogs when the system has inherent variables in the first place (points to how breeders are organized), so that's why I don't understand your POV and why your not advocating a function for "doodles" that's real. 



> just use the same arguments you would use for a purebreed dog...that is the point you can't (or refuse) to see.


And this was *my* reason to point out how you're contradicting yourself.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It was known, but it's not relevant to my point. Whatever combination of parentage you want to make for this dog, kill bite is not a good behavior to exhibit on another dog.


i have no idea what you are saying here, and how it is a response.



Curbside Prophet said:


> This statement defines your ignorance very well since your dog's genes come from a line of dogs with an "obsolete" function.
> .



ah, but here is the difference...pay attention, my friend.

a golden was bred to be a good bird-dog.
he needed to be quiet, stay near the hunter, responsive to direction, not possessive of the retreived bird, and have a "soft" mouth.

these traits which were bred for hunting purposes make for a great family dog, too.
so, yes, the original function was crucial to the golden's present personality.

but, i am not interested in buying from a breeder who still specializes in the best HUNTING goldens.
i don't hunt.
those dogs might be too energetic for me.

and if mixing the golden with a poodle gives me low shed and more intelligence...then that adds to the new function i am looking for.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dog-man said:


> i have no idea what you are saying here, and how it is a response.


Perhaps you should take more time to digest it, but I won't hold my breath.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Perhaps you should take more time to digest it, but I won't hold my breath.


does anyone else know he what he is saying?

i am saying that the story of this dog is irrelevant to well-bred goldendoodles, unless that dog was also well-bred.

he says he KNOWS the parentage, but it is not relevant to his point...and some other mumbo jumbo...do you get it?

CP, sometimes you sound very smart, and other times like you just had some weed.



Curbside Prophet said:


> This is laughable. The implication is that a majority of the dogs in a litter will have the same "personality"?


here's the million dollar question.

do you think that dogs of a particular pure breed TEND to have similar personality traits?

the books that i read say they do...my experience says they do...many owners of purebreed dogs on this forum seem to indicate that they do.

of course, there are other factors, that make subtle and unsubtle differences within dogs of the same breed.

if it is true by purebreeds, there is no reason to deny the possibility by those who understand breeding, but are not obsessed with PURITY of breed, and cross breeds.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

MollyDoggie said:


> I'm curious as to which VA HS put out this list. There does not appear to be a single doodle type dog available at ANY VA HS.
> Here are the dogs available from all the VA HS that list their dogs:
> 
> Hanover Humane Society
> ...


Continuing:

Richmond SPCA
http://www.richmondspca.org/site/PageServer?pagename=newdogs
NO doodle type dogs

Virginia Beach SPCA
http://vbspca.com/modules/pageworks/index.php?page=11&type=Dog
NO doodle type dogs

SPCA of NoVa
http://www.spcanova.org/
NO doodle type dogs

Norfolk SCPA
http://search.petfinder.com/shelter...contact=&name=&shelterid=VA54&sort=&preview=1
NO doodle type dogs

Charlottesville SCPA
http://caspcapets.shelterbuddy.com/...nimalType=3&statusID=3&submitbtn=Find+Animals
NO doodle type dogs

If fact I was only able to find 3 labradoodles and zero goldendoodles available for adoption in the entire state of VA, yet I see them everywhere.

Anyone care to explain that?


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Safe is also relative and has a component in your ability, so this tells us nothing more.
> 
> Clean? You've shown us pictures of your dog at the groomer so how clean can he be?
> If you're judging dogs on what you consider "friendly" and "clean", thank doG you're not a breeder anyone of us have to deal with.


SAFE: there are breeds that are known to be better with children.

CLEAN: Oinest does not shed or drool.
i consider breeds that do not shed or drool to be cleaner dogs than those who do.
is that a relative trait?


forget it...your lack of intellectual honesty is too much for me.


----------



## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

dog-man said:


> here's the million dollar question.
> 
> do you think that dogs of a particular pure breed TEND to have similar personality traits?
> 
> ...


It depends on how strict your question is. And on how you define personality.

Certain things do pop up in generation after generation, that suggests a genetic influence. But generally these are actual behaviors as opposed to personality. Ollie's grandmother was a waterdog, so is Ollie, and so are many other dogs in the lineage. Shalva's dogs smile which is defiantly genetic. But these are behaviors not personality.

But most litters have dogs have a wide range of different “personalities.” Where some puppies are laid back, and others are hell raisers. Some of the puppies are motivated by toys others by food. Most of what you define as your dog’s personality, is nurture as opposed to nature. 

Unless you can put what you are observing in the terms of a behavior, then I would guess it is environmentally based.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Mollydoggie- the original date of the start of this thread was 5/6 and decissions had already been made.. Dont worry- I am sure more will show up soon for you to step in and adopt...


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> Mollydoggie- the original date of the start of this thread was 5/6 and decissions had already been made.. Dont worry- I am sure more will show up soon for you to step in and adopt...


Borzoimom, MollyDoggies origional (I know I know Isuck at spelling) was made 5/7 saying that there were NO doodle type dogs. 
I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that ALL the dogs you say that were "taking over" the shelters would be gone in ONE DAY. 


MollyDoggie, I would have thought there would be a ton more doodles considering there were "so many" just 4 days ago.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Ali- she hasn't even listed close to the area. The problem here is general consistancy they keep showing up.

One more thing- in the 5 surrounding counties, only two pure bred dogs are in the combined shelters- a 9 year old boxer, and a 9 month lab. All the rests are mixed breeds dogs.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> Ali- she hasn't even listed close to the area. The problem here is general consistancy they keep showing up.
> 
> One more thing- in the 5 surrounding counties, only two pure bred dogs are in the combined shelters- a 9 year old boxer, and a 9 month lab. All the rests are mixed breeds dogs.


Nice back pedaling! You had ample opportunity to reply and justify your post and now you're not mentioning 'doodles' just mixed breeds. So perhaps you should modify your original post as you specified the number of 'doodles' were the reason for your rant.

CP: I also don't understand your point regarding one dog who attacked another small dog. I'm probably too stupid to understand it anyway.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

Doodles in and around VA

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10710941
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=9510731
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=9510734
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10738353
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10202234


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

petstar said:


> Doodles in and around VA
> 
> http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10710941
> http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=9510731
> ...


 Thanks petstar. Recyling takes as many as they can.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

More doodles...everywhere

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10764730
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10764685
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10690767
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=9545560
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10779605
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10821244
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10694950
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=9744217


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

petstar said:


> Doodles in and around VA
> 
> http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10710941
> http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=9510731
> ...


Scratch number 4 - poodle lookalike - not a 'doodle'.
Also scratch the Standard Poodle, Weimaraner

Borzoimom: Are you calling all poodle mixes doodles?


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

This was just a few minutes worth of searching...I can find more in VA (I only listed a few that I came accross) and its pretty obvious that they are scattered through rescues through out the US...


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

petstar said:


> This was just a few minutes worth of searching...I can find more in VA (I only listed a few that I came accross) and its pretty obvious that they are scattered through rescues through out the US...


If you're going to use these dogs as examples of 'doodles' over running shelters then please don't list just any poodle mix - the OP specifically stated 'doodles'.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> Scratch number 4 - poodle lookalike - not a 'doodle'.
> Also scratch the Standard Poodle, Weimaraner
> 
> Borzoimom: Are you calling all poodle mixes doodles?


Why scratch #4? How can you tell the dog is not a "doodle" from looking at it's head shot? 

If you want to see more in your area, so a quick search on Petfinder...I had to look up a random VA zipcode (since I don't live in VA) but I quickly found several on the first 2 pages and again, I didn't list them all.



Canadian Dog said:


> If you're going to use these dogs as examples of 'doodles' over running shelters then please don't list just any poodle mix - the OP specifically stated 'doodles'.


No need to get defensive here...I did a very quick search on one rescue site to look for "doodles" in VA area. 

I'm not going to argue about what constitutes a "doodle" since "doodle" is a made up word to describe a mixed dog. MollyDoggie who claimed she is looking for a doodle in rescue and unable to find one in VA said she was looking or a "doodle type dog"...and I found some for her! 

and believe me I didn't list any poodle mix...there were TONS of poos ("cockapoos" "maltapoos" "beaglepoos" etc...) I didn't mean to list the "wiemerdoodle" I must have clicked the wrong link on that one...There were also "schnoodles" that I chose not to list.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

petstar said:


> Why scratch #4? How can you tell the dog is not a "doodle" from looking at it's head shot?
> 
> If you want to see more in your area, so a quick search on Petfinder...I had to look up a random VA zipcode (since I don't live in VA) but I quickly found several on the first 2 pages and again, I didn't list them all.


Good god - it states "poodle look a like"! Your the one who put it there - not me.
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10738353

*I'm not going to argue about what constitutes a "doodle" since "doodle" is a made up word to describe a mixed dog.*

It's a made up word to describe a dog who is a mix of a labrador retriever/poodle or a golden retriever/poodle mix - from purebred dogs.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> If you're going to use these dogs as examples of 'doodles' over running shelters then please don't list just any poodle mix - the OP specifically stated 'doodles'.


 I would suggest you open your eyes Canadian dog. We try to place as many as we can. If a pure bred that makes it a little easier because sometimes the breed rescue can help all the shelters. 
None of your statements justifies the problem= the problem is- its not a breed - its a mix or mutt- there are few avenues to find homes for all of them. Bred sheerly as a " fad" and now time is taking over as the dogs get dumped. At least " cockapoos" are easier as we have several small paw type rescues. 
Fact- the doodle does not produce a doodle while keeping " the main reason in justifying the breeding" - ie the coat! I am not talking about a " gay tail" on a shepherd, - I am talking the original so called half baked reason in making this mutt- hypoallergenic my foot.. .. 
And for you to state " back paddling-"- excuse me- you have no clue why there is a problem here.. Havent understood a thing about what has been said. In my breed the rescues are rare- seized by the club to find homes for them. However- to try and tell me to justify to continue to try to breed a mutt for puppies when so many exist in shelters is outragieious! I am not bashing mutts- there are plenty of cute little mutts in our shelters- I am " bashing" the principle behind this " fad" of doodles when years later, its the dog- NOT to mention - the shelters that have to take up the slack in this sickening fad...


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> Good god - it states "poodle look a like"! Your the one who put it there - not me.
> http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10738353


*shrug* Looks like a "doodle" to me...I would definitely call it a "doodle type dog"

It's being held in animal control and many doodle advocates claim that doodles are misidentified by the average person...


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Wow! You guys have really caught something..


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> Good god - it states "poodle look a like"! Your the one who put it there - not me.
> http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10738353
> 
> *I'm not going to argue about what constitutes a "doodle" since "doodle" is a made up word to describe a mixed dog.*
> ...


What about "Weimer_doodles_" or "Schn_oodles_"?


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Well- lets see here- considering a " doodle " doesnt have a breed standand, alllllll the shelters can be doodles.. lol.. Unlike real breeds that define the dogs looks, and considering the doodle can have any number of coats, produce any other coats, lol- the whole shelter could be.. roflmbo..



petstar said:


> What about "Weimer_doodles_" or "Schn_oodles_"?


 yup! ... you got that right..


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

petstar said:


> *shrug* Looks like a "doodle" to me...I would definitely call it a "doodle type dog"
> 
> It's being held in animal control and many doodle advocates claim that doodles are misidentified by the average person...


*Why scratch #4? How can you tell the dog is not a "doodle" from looking at it's head shot? *

So you can call it a 'doodle type dog' even though the shelter refers to it as poodle look a like? Again, why not just lump them all together then. What is your point?


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> *I'm not going to argue about what constitutes a "doodle" since "doodle" is a made up word to describe a mixed dog.*
> 
> It's a made up word to describe a dog who is a mix of a labrador retriever/poodle or a golden retriever/poodle mix - from purebred dogs.


Really, if you think those are the only two 'doodles' currently being peddles out there then you DO need to open your eyes.

As for the other being a 'poodle look a like' - yeah it is. As are many 'doodles'. Furthermore, you have absolutely no clue what breeds are in that dog and therefor cannot make such claims that it is or isn't a poodle/lab mix for example.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> *Why scratch #4? How can you tell the dog is not a "doodle" from looking at it's head shot? *
> 
> So you can call it a 'doodle type dog' even though the shelter refers to it as poodle look a like? Again, why not just lump them all together then. What is your point?


 BY GEORGE I THINK YOU GOT IT!! Since the breed doesnt have a standard- mixed with every thing known to man kind out of fads-.. Dont you get it?


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> Well- lets see here- considering a " doodle " doesnt have a breed standand, alllllll the shelters can be doodles.. lol.. Unlike real breeds that define the dogs looks, and considering the doodle can have any number of coats, produce any other coats, lol- the whole shelter could be.. roflmbo..
> 
> 
> 
> yup! ... you got that right..


Well if that is the case - what was the point of your original post? Why didn't you specify you were lumping all mixes as doodles - and yes I am well aware it is not a breed. You're the one that started this thread and have been asked numerous times to back up you claims, and so far have failed to do so.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

...More random "doodles" (I'll restrict the ones I post to fit CanadianDog's version of "doodle")

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10590757 (This ons is very sad...I imagine it will be a difficult placement.  I wish I could take more dogs in here)

http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10805729
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10672535
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8004149
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10131279
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10157758
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10351538
http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10823619

Those beards are pretty cute.


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> *Why scratch #4? How can you tell the dog is not a "doodle" from looking at it's head shot? *
> 
> So you can call it a 'doodle type dog' even though the shelter refers to it as poodle look a like? Again, why not just lump them all together then. What is your point?


Just FYI, most shelters don't list dogs under the name of "Labradoodle" or any other sort of designer name. They go up as Poodle mixes, Poodle/Lab mixes, etc. So by calling this dog a "Poodle look alike" they are only refering to the dog's poodle heritage - you have no way of know what other what other blood when into making the dog. Could very well be Lab for all you know.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

"Doodles" free to good home

http://www.domesticsale.com/Classifieds/201664.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00531.html
http://columbus.craigslist.org/pet/675410709.html

I think it was pointed out in this thread that someone here has "doodle" that looks very much like a poodle.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Really, if you think those are the only two 'doodles' currently being peddles out there then you DO need to open your eyes.
> 
> As for the other being a 'poodle look a like' - yeah it is. As are many 'doodles'. Furthermore, you have absolutely no clue what breeds are in that dog and therefor cannot make such claims that it is or isn't a poodle/lab mix for example.


You are right - I have no idea what breeds are in that dog - neither does anyone else.

When I see someone referring to a 'doodle' I am assuming (probably a bad idea) they are speaking of a golden retriever/poodle cross or a labrador retriever/poodle cross - not a mix of poodle and anything. If a 'doodle' is anything with poodle in it then obviously I am wrong and the shelters could very well be over run with these mixes.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Just FYI, most shelters don't list dogs under the name of "Labradoodle" or any other sort of designer name. They go up as Poodle mixes, Poodle/Lab mixes, etc. So by calling this dog a "Poodle look alike" they are only refering to the dog's poodle heritage - you have no way of know what other what other blood when into making the dog. Could very well be Lab for all you know.


 Actually that is very true and quite sad. The countys around here do not list it because since its such a fad, they worry about the persons intention. If The dogs are not spayed or neutered before they leave- only a contract and even that has come back in their face as the person will breed then dump the dog by the time the contract comes into play. A few years back puggles hit the shelters like a ton of bricks. Cute as puppies, then dumped..


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Just FYI, most shelters don't list dogs under the name of "Labradoodle" or any other sort of designer name. They go up as Poodle mixes, Poodle/Lab mixes, etc. So by calling this dog a "Poodle look alike" they are only refering to the dog's poodle heritage - you have no way of know what other what other blood when into making the dog. Could very well be Lab for all you know.


Could very well be anything - right?


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> You are right - I have no idea what breeds are in that dog - neither does anyone else.
> 
> When I see someone referring to a 'doodle' I am assuming (probably a bad idea) they are speaking of a golden retriever/poodle cross or a labrador retriever/poodle cross - not a mix of poodle and anything. If a 'doodle' is anything with poodle in it then obviously I am wrong and the shelters could very well be over run with these mixes.


 A doodle is a breed mixed with a poodle. What exactly it is- goldendoodle, labdoodle- pick on- its still a mix.. Again- reread the post- it states " doodled" to death- *doodled... *


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Borzoimom...how do you feel about mixes in general?
You state that these doodles are a fad...and then you state "Since the breed doesnt have a standard- mixed with every thing known to man kind out of fads" ...so EVERY mix to you is a doodle...therefore...EVERY mix is a FAD. 

So if its not purebred, what is it to you? Another fad?


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> Could very well be anything - right?


 You have not read the title of my thread- it says doodled- You have not read the content- ie - DOODLED.. You just took the assumption we were talking about a perticular mix..( and even then- its still a mix)... Classified as a mix- the shelters are being correct to call them a " mix"- because that is *EXACTL*Y what they are..


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> I am soooooooo sick of this. Again- our HS comes out with the monthly list- again- same thing- most are doodle type mixes. Uh coat didnt come out like we thought-- sheds too much, too curly have to clip it all the time, too much energy, health problems ( up the wazzzzooooo..) or flat out- too much bounce for the family and its a mutt.. ( well duh- what did you think you were getting..).. Since not a breed, no rescues to call, others problems like matted or a mess or whatever..
> I wish this stuff would stop.. Everytime I see a ad in the paper I get past " cringe" but totally outraged.. Take two breeds with high incident of genetic problems and -duh what did you think would happen???? But here is the real joke=- someone wanting one to adopt will pay 55 dollars- verses the outrageious prices I see in the paper or the internet..
> Here is my pose here- if you are adopting a mutt- ie two breeds together- why dont people just spend the time to check out the shelters.. ?????


What are you referring to as "doodle type mixes"?


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

iwantmypup said:


> Borzoimom...how do you feel about mixes in general?
> You state that these doodles are a fad...and then you state "Since the breed doesnt have a standard- mixed with every thing known to man kind out of fads" ...so EVERY mix to you is a doodle...therefore...EVERY mix is a FAD.
> 
> So if its not purebred, what is it to you? Another fad?


 Ali- some of the dearest dogs that owned my heart were a mix. The fact is- the thread is about the practice of fad breeding- exactly what the doodle variety is- meanwhile the shelters get to take up the slack once people realize 
A. They only have a mix breed and not this high priced what-cha-ma-call-it
B.- Not hypoallergenic or the coat they expected.. 
C. Breed between two breeds with alot of genetic problems by people that never genetically tested the parents.
D. even if the breeder did test the " parents"- when you mix breeds, with dna changes, EVEN if you have " two clear parents"- you mix those dnas of different breeds- you can still end up with a mess with more probablity than if the dog had kept within its breed..
*AND YES Ali- it is a fad*... At the dogs expense and the shelters in the long run.. Next month or whenever when the next designer fad breed mix comes out, that will be the next one- no different than the " model car of the year.."..


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> You are right - I have no idea what breeds are in that dog - neither does anyone else.
> 
> When I see someone referring to a 'doodle' I am assuming (probably a bad idea) they are speaking of a golden retriever/poodle cross or a labrador retriever/poodle cross - not a mix of poodle and anything. If a 'doodle' is anything with poodle in it then obviously I am wrong and the shelters could very well be over run with these mixes.


That's where it kind of gets sticky because there is no set regulations or rules as to what does and doesn't make a doodle breed. There are so many of them out there that are part of the 'fad' that it's really not easy to find true and complete status on how many are going homeless. There is a surplus of Poodle mixes (though I think there was always a lot of them) but who's to say which were created as 'doodle' breeds or not? That's why it gets so convoluted, because a lot of it comes down to the area you are in and the opinion of the one you are talking to.

Needless to say, there is just an overpopulation problem when it comes to dogs. I can't honestly pin it to any one group or breed.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

Just to clarify...two of the dogs I posted did not fit your definition of a "doodle" but a quick internet search brought up even more than I originally stumbled across. 

I personally have nothing against mixes. I own one. She's an APBT/AB mix. Someone thought they would be "cute", friendly and make good "watch dogs". Ummmm, no. She is "cute" by my standards and she's VERY friendly...but that doesn't jusitify her breeding. I love her and I'm VERY happy I was able to rescue her and be her forever home but please don't think that it justifies her intentional breeding.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

petstar said:


> ...More random "doodles" (I'll restrict the ones I post to fit CanadianDog's version of "doodle")
> 
> http://www.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=10590757 (This ons is very sad...I imagine it will be a difficult placement.  I wish I could take more dogs in here)
> 
> ...


You stated the reason you posted the links was for the benefit of a member looking for a 'doodle'. If that's the case then post links for what she's looking for - not any mix of poodle. It's not for my benefit.


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Borzoimom ,Yes I know what the thread is about..but time to time you say that they (doodles) have No breed standards. 



> Well- lets see here- considering a " doodle " doesnt have a breed standand, alllllll the shelters can be doodles.. lol.. Unlike real breeds that define the dogs looks, and considering the doodle can have any number of coats, produce any other coats, lol- the whole shelter could be.. roflmbo..


Thats what you said. ALL shelters can be doodles apperantly to you. AND you say that ALL doodles are FADS... therefore, *all shelter dogs are doodles and fads.*


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

petstar said:


> . I love her and I'm VERY happy I was able to rescue her and be her forever home but please don't think that it justifies her intentional breeding.


Those are your words - not mine - it has nothing to do with the OP.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

I should further clarify...I have less of a problem with people breeding "doodles" for service dogs. I don't understand it and I don't necessarily condone it, but I can swallow it easier than people who are breeding these dogs because they might look cute, might not shed very much and might have good personalities.


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Good point Ali.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

> You stated the reason you posted the links was for the benefit of a member looking for a 'doodle'. If that's the case then post links for what she's looking for - not any mix of poodle. It's not for my benefit.


She said in this thread...about two pages (maybe one) ago that she couldn't find a "doodle type dog" in any of the SPCAs in VA...Well...I found her some "doodle type dogs". 

You need to take a deep breath and calm down. You seem VERY upset.



Canadian Dog said:


> Those are your words - not mine - it has nothing to do with the OP.


 OK. and every single post you've made has been relevant to the OP. I'm pretty sure those are my words since I typed them out...not sure where you were going with that...


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> That's where it kind of gets sticky because there is no set regulations or rules as to what does and doesn't make a doodle breed. There are so many of them out there that are part of the 'fad' that it's really not easy to find true and complete status on how many are going homeless. There is a surplus of Poodle mixes (though I think there was always a lot of them) but who's to say which were created as 'doodle' breeds or not? That's why it gets so convoluted, because a lot of it comes down to the area you are in and the opinion of the one you are talking to.
> 
> Needless to say, there is just an overpopulation problem when it comes to dogs. I can't honestly pin it to any one group or breed.


The doodles (god I hate that stupid name) I am referring to are the ones like Molly who is golden retriever/standard poodle mix and Dog-man's who were purchased from a breeder. These are the ones people seem to be so upset about. If now the word 'doodle' refers to any mix of poodle it's because those who work in shelters have lumped them together - that's where it gets 'kind of sticky'.

The OP should clarify exactly what she is referring to.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

petstar said:


> I should further clarify...I have less of a problem with people breeding "doodles" for service dogs. I don't understand it and I don't necessarily condone it, but I can swallow it easier than people who are breeding these dogs because they might look cute, might not shed very much and might have good personalities.


 Service work I could see. First of all I know they test parents etc as well as the candiates health wise. They are spayed/neutered, well trained and physically fit. How someone is going to take care of a curly coat without having to have them trimmed- I have no idea. After all- the coat does not come " low maintenance" after all. 
You know- every year they have the Westminster dog show. And who ever wins the top award that year, the breeders get braced. And why? because of people that just want the fad of the year.. Its similar to the same thing. Or the latest car ( I could mention a ton of them ) but that is not the same as a living animal. 
The last owner surrendar lately just made me sick.. " we got this dog because it was supposed to allergenic, but the dog brings pollen in on its coat.. " THAT ONE just tops the cake!


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Good point Ali.


Thank you I just hope the OP actually replies to it.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

petstar said:


> She said in this thread...about two pages (maybe one) ago that she couldn't find a "doodle type dog" in any of the SPCAs in VA...Well...I found her some "doodle type dogs".
> 
> You need to take a deep breath and calm down. You seem VERY upset.
> 
> ...


Why do you think I'm VERY upset? I am simply stating my opinion - I am allowed to do that right? Here - I'll even put a smiley


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> Service work I could see. First of all I know they test parents etc as well as the candiates health wise. They are spayed/neutered, well trained and physically fit. How someone is going to take care of a curly coat without having to have them trimmed- I have no idea. After all- the coat does not come " low maintenance" after all.
> You know- every year they have the Westminster dog show. And who ever wins the top award that year, the breeders get braced. And why? because of people that just want the fad of the year.. Its similar to the same thing. Or the latest car ( I could mention a ton of them ) but that is not the same as a living animal.
> *The last owner surrendar lately just made me sick.. " we got this dog because it was supposed to allergenic, but the dog brings pollen in on its coat.. *" THAT ONE just tops the cake!


People like that shouldn't own any dog...period.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

iwantmypup said:


> Thank you I just hope the OP actually replies to it.


Not a chance.

Okay, I'm going to take Molly out - will check back to see if it actually happens! Good luck.


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> Why do you think I'm VERY upset? I am simply stating my opinion - I am allowed to do that right? Here - I'll even put a smiley


I jumped in here after reading her posts about not being able to find "doodle type dogs" in her area. 

I did a quick search and within minutes found several doodle type dogs...You immediately started scrutinizing the dogs I posted, tried to define a "doodle" (btw, wouldn't those weimerdoodle lovers or schnoodle breeders argue that they too have "doodles"?) and you've been on the defense about making sure I find dogs that fit your description of "doodle types"...so I did. I posted some throughout America...all were retriever/poodle mixes...but you still wanted to harp about the two "wrong" ones. (one which certainly looks like a doodle to me...although they didn't label it as a "doodle" or anything for that matter)

You seem very upset, serious and disgruntled. 

I think the doodle issue is clear. There are people who think that mixing breeds to (hopefully) obtain a certain look which might produce less allergens and might have a good personality is ok. Fine. I (and several other disagree). Apparently, we won't change your minds, and you won't change ours. Simple as that.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

petstar said:


> People like that shouldn't own any dog...period.


 Tell me about it- but the " selling" points of this type is putting people in this just for the same.. 


Canadian Dog said:


> Not a chance.....


 I did and typing at the same time it was posted. I have other things to do other than reply to people that have clue what the conversation is about.. its not about " your molly" but obviously to you - it is alllllllllll about molly...


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

I just have to add...I don't understand how the "doodle" advocates can proudly rep their own mix of poo but not others...I feel confident that there are people out there that feel their cockerpoo hung the moon. Why is your mutt any better than mine?


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

petstar said:


> I jumped in here after reading her posts about not being able to find "doodle type dogs" in her area.
> 
> I did a quick search and within minutes found several doodle type dogs...You immediately started scrutinizing the dogs I posted, tried to define a "doodle" (btw, wouldn't those weimerdoodle lovers or schnoodle breeders argue that they too have "doodles"?) and you've been on the defense about making sure I find dogs that fit your description of "doodle types"...so I did. I posted some throughout America...all were retriever/poodle mixes...but you still wanted to harp about the two "wrong" ones. (one which certainly looks like a doodle to me...although they didn't label it as a "doodle" or anything for that matter)
> 
> ...


 boy you got that right petstar.. If they want to add to the doodle mix- go ahead, and I hope those that support this by buying puppies from these people also aid the shelters in the ones they have. After all- bread is bread when it comes out of the oven, and 'doodles" are all mixes in the end.. Without even a breed rescue to call when they come to the shelter.


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Candian Dog -


> Not a chance.


 Apperantly so. 

BMOM..I have no clue what your reply means. But I think that everyone in this dog forum is all about their dogs..just like you. 
So if CD wants to walk molly let him/her...
All we were commenting was that you were not going to reply to me.


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

petstar said:


> I just have to add...I don't understand how the "doodle" advocates can proudly rep their own mix of poo but not others...I feel confident that there are people out there that feel their cockerpoo hung the moon. Why is your mutt any better than mine?


 ( spits soda on the computer..) Amen again!!! lol.. And the adoption fee is the same btw..



iwantmypup said:


> Candian Dog - Apperantly so.
> 
> BMOM..I have no clue what your reply means. But I think that everyone in this dog forum is all about their dogs..just like you.
> So if CD wants to walk molly let him/her...
> All we were commenting was that you were not going to reply to me.


NOBODY said a word about her " molly"... Thats not the point of the thread Ali..For all I know about " molly" she adopted her from a shelter and would hope if not she didnt pay through the nose for the same dog she could have gotton from a shelter..


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

BMOM was not saying all dogs are doodles. She was saying that you can't possibly tell with some mixes, therefore all mixes COULD be doodles. I can't justify spending that much money on a dog that is a MIX. Forget that I can get one from the shelter. You can also get a beagle from a shelter. Not everyone will go to a shelter. If doodle breeders were like all the other BYB'ers cuz lets face it a doodle breeder IS a byb, anywho, if they were like all the other ones and didnt charge and arm and a leg, than the only issue I'd have is them breeding them to begin with.

That would be like me selling a gallon of chocolate milk for 20 dollars cuz everyone thinks chocolate milk is so great when the chocolate and the milk each cost one dollar.

that was a weird metaphor...sorry. lol


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Jen (4d3c) , she kinda did say that they could be...
I suppose I take replies to literal 



borzoimom said:


> Well- lets see here- considering a " doodle " doesnt have a breed standand, alllllll the shelters can be doodles.. lol.. Unlike real breeds that define the dogs looks, and considering the doodle can have any number of coats, produce any other coats, lol- the whole shelter could be.. roflmbo..





borzoimom said:


> NOBODY said a word about her " molly"... Thats not the point of the thread Ali..For all I know about " molly" she adopted her from a shelter and would hope if not she didnt pay through the nose for the same dog she could have gotton from a shelter..


NO that is not the point of the thread BM..
BUT this is a quote from your post.. 


> I did and typing at the same time it was posted. I have other things to do other than reply to people that have clue what the conversation is about.. its not about " your molly" but obviously to you - it is alllllllllll about molly...


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Yes she said they COULD be. She has nothing against mixed dogs, she, like MANY other people, have problems with people intentionally breeding a mutt and selling it for extreme amounts of money when there are already tons of mixes in shelters.


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

borzoimom said:


> boy you got that right petstar.. If they want to add to the doodle mix- go ahead, and I hope those that support this by buying puppies from these people also aid the shelters in the ones they have. After all- bread is bread when it comes out of the oven, and 'doodles" are all mixes in the end.. Without even a breed rescue to call when they come to the shelter.


http://www.idog.biz/Rescue.html
http://www.poomixrescue.com/affiliated_organizations.html

borzoimom,
Every post you have made in this thread regarding doodles has been instantly proved to be complete and utter BS. Your original post was an outright and intentional fabrication.

Have you no shame?


----------



## petstar (Dec 7, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> http://www.idog.biz/Rescue.html
> http://www.poomixrescue.com/affiliated_organizations.html
> 
> borzoimom,
> ...


Regardless of her OP and whether or not there were "doodles" in the shelters in VA...there are certainly many in rescue in VA and all over America. 

...and those aren't breed specific rescues...The second link just takes you to the first link when you look for dogs...the first link is a general "poo mix" rescue and has a TON of poo mixes. (From this thread, I have learned that there is a certain division amongst poo mix enthusiasts so...that really isn't a doodle specific rescue)


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> http://www.idog.biz/Rescue.html
> http://www.poomixrescue.com/affiliated_organizations.html
> 
> borzoimom,
> ...


The REAL shame belongs to those who spent a grand on their doodles when there are 28 golden doodles on that first link alone. have THEY no shame?

BMom should not be shamed. She may have started a thread with or without accurate information, but how do YOU know the rescue SHE works with isnt overrun by doodles? Did you go there? Did you see them yourself? This is not an off the wall topic, its a topic that many people are saddened by. Go work in a shelter, watch them inject that blue liquid into a goldendoodle that wasn't 100% hypo-allergenic, watch that dog DIE with its big brown eyes looking into yours asking WHY. THEN go to the freaking pet store and watch the people BUY a golden doodle right AFTER the other one was KILLED because no one wanted it.

No- the shame does not belong to Bmom. She works in rescue. She SEES what we don't. I think some other people here should feel some shame. Let her feel a little silly for opening this thread if it wasnt based on accurate information. But I can almost guarantee that at one point in time, it WILL be accurate.


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

I stand my point that if you are goingto make a thread like this..it doesn't matter who it can be a mod, it can be ANY member..a newbie, don't make such a thread like this without accurate information. If I am one of the people that you refer to 4d3c, and I am sure I am I can say with all of my heart that I feel no shame. And I don't see why anybody should. Can we not state opinions and facts without everyone thinking some people are the big bad wolf?

That is all


----------



## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> If now the word 'doodle' refers to any mix of poodle it's because those who work in shelters have lumped them together - that's where it gets 'kind of sticky'.


Er, no not at all. Especially given the fact that as I mentioned earlier, most shelters do not even use the terms 'doodle' or 'poo' or whatever. The get lumped together because of the large amounts of people claiming that every dog they have is a Yorkidoodlepom instead of calling it what it is - ie. a mix of such and such breeds.


----------



## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> The REAL shame belongs to those who spent a grand on their doodles when there are 28 golden doodles on that first link alone. have THEY no shame?
> 
> BMom should not be shamed. She may have started a thread with or without accurate information, but how do YOU know the rescue SHE works with isnt overrun by doodles? Did you go there? Did you see them yourself? This is not an off the wall topic, its a topic that many people are saddened by. Go work in a shelter, watch them inject that blue liquid into a goldendoodle that wasn't 100% hypo-allergenic, watch that dog DIE with its big brown eyes looking into yours asking WHY. THEN go to the freaking pet store and watch the people BUY a golden doodle right AFTER the other one was KILLED because no one wanted it.
> 
> No- the shame does not belong to Bmom. She works in rescue. She SEES what we don't. I think some other people here should feel some shame. Let her feel a little silly for opening this thread if it wasnt based on accurate information. But I can almost guarantee that at one point in time, it WILL be accurate.


28 goldendoodles available nationwide? Do you have any idea what a tiny number that is relative to the popularity of the dog? There are over 20,000 labs and lab mixes, 10,000 pit mixes, 15,000 hounds and hound mixes, etc.


----------



## Rainbow.Paws (May 7, 2008)

I've never been in a shelter where they classify a poodle mix (even a lab x poodle) as a "doodle". they are all poodle mixes or spelled out as a Labrador x Poodle cross. We try to adopt out the dog, not the mix. A "doodle" is a poodle mix. if it meant anything more there wouldn't be a need for the other breed being represented in the names "Labradoodle", "Schnoodle", "Goldendoodle"..etc. the OP didn't point out a specific mix.


I also wouldn't care what information the thread was based on unless Bmom was asking for assistance or donations. I am against BSL and I remember a thread being started on another site about labradors being banned in their area; a HUGE uproar started with all the lab owners about how ridiculous it was and it just proved more people would care if a law affected their dog. The claim was 100% false, but it opened some people's eyes up.


----------



## MollyDoggie (May 6, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> The REAL shame belongs to those who spent a grand on their doodles when there are 28 golden doodles on that first link alone. have THEY no shame?


I've been trying to adopt another goldendoodle in VA for close to a year with no luck. 



4dogs3cats said:


> BMom should not be shamed. She may have started a thread with or without accurate information, but how do YOU know the rescue SHE works with isnt overrun by doodles? Did you go there? Did you see them yourself?


I know for an absolute fact that neither her or any other shelter in VA is overrun by doodles. 



4dogs3cats said:


> This is not an off the wall topic, its a topic that many people are saddened by. Go work in a shelter, watch them inject that blue liquid into a goldendoodle that wasn't 100% hypo-allergenic, watch that dog DIE with its big brown eyes looking into yours asking WHY. THEN go to the freaking pet store and watch the people BUY a golden doodle right AFTER the other one was KILLED because no one wanted it.


I don't have to watch a healthy adoptable goldendoodle be euthanized because it doesn't happen in VA, ever. Period.



4dogs3cats said:


> No- the shame does not belong to Bmom. She works in rescue. She SEES what we don't. I think some other people here should feel some shame. Let her feel a little silly for opening this thread if it wasnt based on accurate information. But I can almost guarantee that at one point in time, it WILL be accurate.


Posting inaccurate information is one thing. Claiming to be in possession of a list from the HS, when no such list exists, is something else. I have already stated I believe bmom to be a respectable person and a wonderful dog owner. However, her intention in starting this thread was nothing more then to create malice toward the doodle community, of which I am a proud member.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> 28 goldendoodles available nationwide? Do you have any idea what a tiny number that is relative to the popularity of the dog? There are over 20,000 labs and lab mixes, 10,000 pit mixes, 15,000 hounds and hound mixes, etc.


that was one list.



MollyDoggie said:


> I've been trying to adopt another goldendoodle in VA for close to a year with no luck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand how passionate you re about this, and I respect that. I cant speak for the OP. BUT- I can say good for you for wanting a goldendoodle- but checking the rescues first. I believe that is what the original post was all about.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

petstar said:


> I just have to add...I don't understand how the "doodle" advocates can proudly rep their own mix of poo but not others...I feel confident that there are people out there that feel their cockerpoo hung the moon. Why is your mutt any better than mine?


sometimes i think you can't ever say anything stupider, and then you outdo yourself.

i can advocate goldendoodles, because i have extensive experience with them.

i can't advocate other intentional mixes, if i don't know how they are working out.
all i can do IS BE OPEN-MINDED.



Canadian Dog said:


> The doodles (god I hate that stupid name) I am referring to are the ones like Molly who is golden retriever/standard poodle mix and Dog-man's who were purchased from a breeder. .


that is exactly the point.

just as you cannot lump pitbulls (or any breed) who are bred from good breeders, with pitbulls that come from puppy mills, byb and oops litters.


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

4dogs3cats said:


> The REAL shame belongs to those who spent a grand on their doodles when there are 28 golden doodles on that first link alone. have THEY no shame?
> 
> BMom should not be shamed. She may have started a thread with or without accurate information, but how do YOU know the rescue SHE works with isnt overrun by doodles? Did you go there? Did you see them yourself? This is not an off the wall topic, its a topic that many people are saddened by. Go work in a shelter, watch them inject that blue liquid into a goldendoodle that wasn't 100% hypo-allergenic, watch that dog DIE with its big brown eyes looking into yours asking WHY. THEN go to the freaking pet store and watch the people BUY a golden doodle right AFTER the other one was KILLED because no one wanted it.
> 
> No- the shame does not belong to Bmom. She works in rescue. She SEES what we don't. I think some other people here should feel some shame. Let her feel a little silly for opening this thread if it wasnt based on accurate information. But I can almost guarantee that at one point in time, it WILL be accurate.


Good post...

and YES...ALL "Doodles" are mixed breeds!!! Duh!!! That is the whole 'point' (?) of this thread...that there are sooooooo many of these mixed breeds in the shelters... I too have worked in shelters, and what ever is popular at the time, is what is most in the shelter..."doodle" mixes (whether it is a Golden or Lab) are what are making huge numbers in the shelters around here...so tell me, anyone, who justifies the breeding of these dogs, the justification in truly advocating them ("good breeder" or bad breeder)? So many of them (and they ARE lovely looking mutts) are winding up in shelters, because people just can't handle them; either their intelligence level, OR their energy requirements. 

And dog-man, before you say that "Your" dog is not a hyper crazy doodle dog, this is not the norm...YOU recognize the amount of exercise your dog needs to satisfy his requirements...MANY people DO NOT!!! They just want the 'hypoallergenic' part of the dog...and don't realize it comes with high intelligence AND energy. You can't tell me that breeding a Golden or Lab with a Poodle would NOT produce an energetic dog...that's insane...both of these dogs are high energy; IF you know anything about the two breeds in themselves you would know that. I have yet to meet a doodle who didn't have an insane amount of energy...and this is not a bad thing, but it CAN be if you don't realize the requirement to 'burn it' so you have a happy well adjusted dog!


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

4dogs3cats said:


> The REAL shame belongs to those who spent a grand on their doodles when there are 28 golden doodles on that first link alone. have THEY no shame?
> 
> BMom should not be shamed. She may have started a thread with or without accurate information, but how do YOU know the rescue SHE works with isnt overrun by doodles? Did you go there? Did you see them yourself? This is not an off the wall topic, its a topic that many people are saddened by. Go work in a shelter, watch them inject that blue liquid into a goldendoodle that wasn't 100% hypo-allergenic, watch that dog DIE with its big brown eyes looking into yours asking WHY. THEN go to the freaking pet store and watch the people BUY a golden doodle right AFTER the other one was KILLED because no one wanted it.
> 
> No- the shame does not belong to Bmom. She works in rescue. She SEES what we don't. I think some other people here should feel some shame. Let her feel a little silly for opening this thread if it wasnt based on accurate information. But I can almost guarantee that at one point in time, it WILL be accurate.


 thank you 4dogs- until these people work with shelters and pounds they will never understand it.. ever...


----------



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I suspect the US is different in regards to its shelter problems but id also suspect doodles dont take up nearly half as much shelter places than many other breeds do.

IMO this has more to do with them not being a pure breed dog than the shelter problem that was the first post.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Love's_Sophie said:


> Good post...
> 
> and YES...ALL "Doodles" are mixed breeds!!! Duh!!! That is the whole 'point' (?) of this thread...that there are sooooooo many of these mixed breeds in the shelters... I too have worked in shelters, and what ever is popular at the time, is what is most in the shelter..."doodle" mixes (whether it is a Golden or Lab) are what are making huge numbers in the shelters around here...so tell me, anyone, who justifies the breeding of these dogs, the justification in truly advocating them ("good breeder" or bad breeder)? So many of them (and they ARE lovely looking mutts) are winding up in shelters, because people just can't handle them; either their intelligence level, OR their energy requirements.
> 
> And dog-man, before you say that "Your" dog is not a hyper crazy doodle dog, this is not the norm...YOU recognize the amount of exercise your dog needs to satisfy his requirements...MANY people DO NOT!!! They just want the 'hypoallergenic' part of the dog...and don't realize it comes with high intelligence AND energy. You can't tell me that breeding a Golden or Lab with a Poodle would NOT produce an energetic dog...that's insane...both of these dogs are high energy; IF you know anything about the two breeds in themselves you would know that. I have yet to meet a doodle who didn't have an insane amount of energy...and this is not a bad thing, but it CAN be if you don't realize the requirement to 'burn it' so you have a happy well adjusted dog!


I would typically think a doodle would be a terrible first dog for a family. ALL the ones I met at petsmart when I worked in the doggy daycamp were HYPER. Chloe, (looked just like Oinest, and Molly, etc your typical looking doodle,) would drench her whole BODY in the waterbowl. Mom said she did it at home too and they couldnt keep water on the floor. They are generally pretty friendly as a group, but just like my beagle, high energy. I also would not reccomend my beagle to any first time dog owners, I have had animals for years and he is still a bit of a handful at times!



borzoimom said:


> thank you 4dogs- until these people work with shelters and pounds they will never understand it.. ever...


I could never do what you, and Inga, and Teddie, and everyone here that is involved with rescue, does.. You guys truly are heroes.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

borzoimom:

You are losing credibility by not acknowledging your mistake in the original post. Please explain exactly what a 'doodle' is.


----------



## dog-man (Mar 26, 2008)

Love's_Sophie said:


> And dog-man, before you say that "Your" dog is not a hyper crazy doodle dog, this is not the norm...YOU recognize the amount of exercise your dog needs to satisfy his requirements...MANY people DO NOT!!! They just want the 'hypoallergenic' part of the dog...and don't realize it comes with high intelligence AND energy. You can't tell me that breeding a Golden or Lab with a Poodle would NOT produce an energetic dog...that's insane...both of these dogs are high energy; IF you know anything about the two breeds in themselves you would know that. I have yet to meet a doodle who didn't have an insane amount of energy...and this is not a bad thing, but it CAN be if you don't realize the requirement to 'burn it' so you have a happy well adjusted dog!


your point is very good, to a certain extent.

yes, i put much thought and time to be sure he burns off his energy...at least one good run or playdate a day.

without that, i believe i would not have a calm dog.

however, i disagree that both poodles and goldens are so high energy, that they create an insane energy dog.

these dogs need some good exercise...that's it.

but your basic point is good...uneducated people make bad decisions...on the dog they choose, or whether to get a dog in the first place.
that, in itself, is not a reflection on the breed, or the educated owners.

just like the dogs from bad breeders are not a reflection on the good ones.


----------



## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

Love's_Sophie said:


> Good post...
> 
> and YES...ALL "Doodles" are mixed breeds!!! Duh!!! That is the whole 'point' (?) of this thread...that there are sooooooo many of these mixed breeds in the shelters... I too have worked in shelters, and what ever is popular at the time, is what is most in the shelter..."doodle" mixes (whether it is a Golden or Lab) are what are making huge numbers in the shelters around here...so tell me, anyone, who justifies the breeding of these dogs, the justification in truly advocating them ("good breeder" or bad breeder)? So many of them (and they ARE lovely looking mutts) are winding up in shelters, because people just can't handle them; either their intelligence level, OR their energy requirements.
> 
> And dog-man, before you say that "Your" dog is not a hyper crazy doodle dog, this is not the norm...YOU recognize the amount of exercise your dog needs to satisfy his requirements...MANY people DO NOT!!! They just want the 'hypoallergenic' part of the dog...and don't realize it comes with high intelligence AND energy. You can't tell me that breeding a Golden or Lab with a Poodle would NOT produce an energetic dog...that's insane...both of these dogs are high energy; IF you know anything about the two breeds in themselves you would know that. I have yet to meet a doodle who didn't have an insane amount of energy...and this is not a bad thing, but it CAN be if you don't realize the requirement to 'burn it' so you have a happy well adjusted dog!


*YOU recognize the amount of exercise your dog needs to satisfy his requirements...MANY people DO NOT!!!*

This can be said of any dog owner! Molly has an amazing amount of energy (in my opinion - but then again, I'm getting old) but as soon as we are home and in the house she lays down and relaxes.

For anyone interested. borzoimom has refused to answer on this thread what a 'doodle' is but has replied on another with the following definition:

*A "doodle" is a mix breed of a breed with a poodle.*

So if that is the case then it would have saved a lot of time if she had simply stated that in the first place.



MollyDoggie said:


> I've been trying to adopt another goldendoodle in VA for close to a year with no luck.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just to clarify - is it you that Petstar was looking and posting links for available doodles? If so, are any of these dogs what you are looking for? Are you looking for what has now been deemed as a doodle by borzoimom as:
*A "doodle" is a mix breed of a breed with a poodle. *


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

If we want to get really technically. A golden mixed with a poodle technically is not a Doodle. Where does the D come from? Golden-D-oodle? I see the golden, and I see the oodle from poodle. But wouldnt these either be goldenpoodles or goldenoodles?

I have issues with the people breeding them to make money, and I have issues with the people spending the money on them. I do not have issues with the dogs themselves. The dogs didnt chose to be bred that way. I love ALL dogs. I just feel for the mutts dying in shelters when there are the same mutts being purposely bred and sold for money- WAIT LET ME FINISH!

I ALSO feel bad for the purebreds who are dying in shelters while there are purbreds being bred for money. I am not going to get into the whole bred for a purpose debate. The truth stands. There is ALREADY a problem with purebreds dying in shelters, why ADD to it by breeding MIXED breeds to sell? Thats my only point. We are all aware of the purebred dogs dying in shelters, hopefully getting to the resuces before that happens. Having said that, a bunch of people who claim THIS is a big problem, are now breeding poos and doodles and uggles


----------

