# Bloodhound troubles



## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

Hi all! I've joined this site sometime last year when I wanted to find other bloodhound owners in hope of some leash training help. I didn't find many, but did find some leash training help nonetheless! But here I am posting one of those annoying newbie posts! (Sorry!)


I've tried reading as much as I can on resource guarding here on DF. Using search, finding stickies, etc.

I have a few questions (surprise) so here's the scenario:

I have a 9 month old male bloodhound intact, going through his lovely adolescent stage of life. When I purchased him I was living in Arizona with my husband who is in the military. He is deploying so I moved back to Massachusetts where we grew up. Unfortunetly we won't be buying a house until next summer when he returns so I am staying with my parents. So, poor Ruger has changed homes, time zones, people, and complete environments. (Mistake? Ill take responsibility) When we first received Ruger, he did growl as a puppy when we took his new toys away. (I am learning now, that it is better to leave them alone but when he was a puppy I was in the 'he needs to be prepared for little kids to take his toys and be ok with it' mode. I take full responsibility for that mistake) Anyway, it ended and he became comfortable with us taking things away. At around 6 months old he would take shirts, socks, underwear, etc. from the clean laundry I would fold and run around with it. I got into the habit of running to the fridge, giving him a treat (distraction) and running to get the clothing and putting it away. Slowly I stopped doing laundry unless he was sleeping which was frequent anyway since he was napping a ton as a puppy. Slowly I began learning about the 'trading game'. I would give him a cookie and say 'give' and take the shoe, stuffing from a toy, etc out of his mouth. No problems. As soon as I came home to MA, he started growling even if I went near him with a cookie to 'trade'. I ignored the growl (My mistake, I understand) and proceeded towards him. I put the piece of bacon out in exchange for the reeces peanut butter cup he stole from a table. (It was in his reach, so its my fault for not informing everyone his head reaches ontop of the table, AND for not teaching Ruger that is not acceptable) he snarled, lunged forward to grab the bacon while hiding the candy in the back of his throat. I went to grab the bacon since he clearly was trying to get both and bam. I was bitten. Not bad, I didnt even notice until I saw the blood but he got me with a tooth. At this point I was on my knees thinking being over him might make him fearful of my dominant stance (Mistake #1000 at this point) And grabbed a hold of his chain collar just to pull him backwards since he could have attacked my face. He went for my hand at that point, teach baring, growling, head thrashing, and a firm shoulder stance. (My attempt to control him by grabbing his collar made him react as if he was being attacked so he defended himself.) Long story short I managed to get up slowly, he shook off (he always does this after growling, does anybody know why?) and encouraged him to his crate where he happily entered and laid down.



This was a week ago. Since then he has snapped at 3 different people. (He tried to grab a dish towel, swallowed a golf ball in fear which had to be removed by medical induced vomiting, and a baby toy.) Successfully biting one other person besides me. At this point, I would consider the behavior to be dangerous, not only to people around him, but himself because he tries to eat whatever it is as fast as he can before I can take it away, PLUS tries to attack for the 'trading valuable'. I called a trainer locally who is a professional WITH experience in bloodhounds. She told me that this possessive behavior is extremely common and this is the main reason why they are given up for adoption. (Can you believe it? Bloodhounds being aggressive? I grew up around rottweilers and not once was growled at. I thought aggression would be the least of my worries with a bloodhound) She gave me a quote of $1250/week for a resident obedience training. And she recommended at least a 4 week stay. So that's over $5,000. IMO, that is a horrendous amount of money. BUT, at what point do we say we can't handle having people in harms way?



Anyway, I've implemented the NILIF. I have ordered 'MINE' the book I see on here a ton regarding RGing. I've contacted professional help, I'm enrolling him in dog basic obedience and manners classes. He gets daily hikes, walks, and training for scent trailing. I've also began buckling down on teaching him 'give' which he knows, but I really want him to be able to 'drop it' if I won't confuse him?

I told the professional behaviorist about giving food/toys in trade of what he has and she said not to. He's associated running away with things with getting something awesome like bacon, and now he's trying to have both and succeeding.

My questions are--
So,* is the trading game not for him? *I've started training him with 'give' and he does awesome until it's something that he's never had before like for instance that piece of candy. And my fear is that there will always be something NEW. Am I going about the right way of fixing it? 

Also, today while doing simple commands, he would do everything (sit, shake, high five, speak, and whoa) except lay down. And when I tried to pull on his collar for him to go down, he stiffened and growled.* Is he trying to be dominant?* I'm fearful of him becoming aggressive regarding everything now and I do NOT want to be fearful of my own dog. 


PLEASE HELP!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

What did the behaviorist recommend doing instead of the trading game?


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## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

She didn't have an alternative. She just told me it wouldn't work. She recommended thinking over the price and considering her program so she can start from ground zero and change his whole personality. It's a one-on-one program, so he's the only dog in training instead of a kennel of say 20 dogs at 'boot camp' programs. But the price seems very very high. Maybe that's what the going rate is these days, but gosh! Her plan sounded to me like NILIF and a lot of obedience. So I've taken the first step in implementing NILIF and enrolling him in basic dog obedience classes. I have seen a huge difference since I began making him work for everything and waiting for me to walk through doors before he does, etc. I wish I could find some bloodhound owners on here.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If she didn't have an alternative, I'd be wondering exactly how she intends to train him from "ground zero" - that wording and the "change his whole personality" part would make me worry that she may be using harsh methods. I've seen trainers who believe in basically breaking a dog down and building him back up, unfortunately, the building the dog back up part doesn't work. Instead the dog tends to be a shut down mental mess. This is just my opinion, but I wouldn't let anyone train my dog when I was not there to watch. Half of training is training the owner anyway but also that you have no idea what methods are being used. 

If you are seeing real improvement in only a week or two of NILIF and basic obedience, keep it up for awhile longer and see how things go. Knock off the dominance theory though, it's been debunked. Personally, for now I would muzzle him with a quality basket muzzle when you are going to have him around other people which would prevent two problems- A)being able to grab items or food and B)being able to bite someone over it. 

There's no way to tell from just your posts whether the dog really truly is aggressive or if he's just been trained (by the mistakes that you can now see when you look back) to be an extreme resource guarder. I don't think you necessarily need a trainer that has experience with bloodhounds, you just need a trainer (behaviorist if possible) that is experienced with this level of resource guarding and aggressive dogs in general.


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## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

Shell, thanks for your input and I appreciate all your opinions and help!

I guess I should have elaborated on her training more. She invented what is called the 'GEM' system and can be found here-- http://www.massachusettsdogtrainer.com/page12.php

She did tell me that you need to be as gentle as possible when working with bloodhounds. Which is true, and that's why I need a bloodhound experience trainer. Because corrections of a leash, use of a muzzle, etc are all too harsh for a bloodhound. I believe what she meant from working from ground zero meant was that she had to work on every aspect of his entire life. Feeding, walking, manners, obedience, dog socialization, etc. Almost as if he had never been trained is what she would start from. Just to make sure that he gets every aspect of being well behaved. Also, in addition to that 4 week stay she said she would never just give him back without training me too because most the time the owner if uninformed about how to maintain and properly continue education, after a week or so the dog is right back to where it started. 


I wanted to ask you, why do you think I should knock the dominance theory? Because NILIF is working that he automatically isn't dominant? I'm just wondering because the other day without a treat in my hand he did not want to listen to my 'down' command and growled when I went to encourage him with a regular leather collar. I don't think he is aggressive. I think the competition of dogs in the house, made him possessive which made him growl even when trying to trade him for something and has learned if he growls/lunges that he has a chance of getting BOTH items. Also, I'm wondering now if other dogs in the house makes him feel like he can't lay down in their presence? Due to some type of vulnerability maybe? He has growled at the rotties a few times regarding giving out treats or food, which makes me feel like he is fearful of them. Which I could understand- they aren't taller than him, but they are very 'bulldozer' like dogs. And I think because he's so 'flight' he may be intimidated? I just created a barrier and I'm going to see if he will do some 'down' commands without hesitation this time.


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## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

GEM = Gentle Electronic Motivation = Do what I want or get 'gently' shocked = Bad Idea

Dominance thinking is based on the Alpha wolf pack nonsense that the originator of the term has disavowed. It just isn't true unfortunately.

Please find a positive trainer for your dog. 

]Monty[

Edit (from her web site): MORE TEACHING – LESS CORRECTIONS than with most Training!! - _There should be NO corrections_

More effective in a prompt manner than clicker training - _This is just flat out false. NOTHING is faster or retained better than marker training. Period._


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm surprised that a trainer who thinks a muzzle is too harsh plans to use an electronic collar in her training. 



> It is NOT shock training and should not be used to penalize or punish the dog. Originally I designed this method to help Companion Dog owners, but the training can be used for Sport, Competition, Service or any work a dog might do. Out of all the Electronic Collar methods that I know, this has been proven to be the gentlest method. The Collar is used strictly as a Communication tool, almost as if it were a cellular phone from owner to dog.


It is nice to see she's saying it isn't shock training, but just because it is the "gentlest method" among the Ecollar methods doesn't mean it is actually gentle. One question it brings to mind is how high of a stim would she be using if the dog doesn't respond. She says it wouldn't be for punishment but one problem with "We learn to “tap” simultaneously when the command is given, rather than tapping when the dog does not do as it is asked" is that any imperfect timing turns it into punishment.

My personal opinion only, but I wouldn't be comfortable letting my dog be trained outside of my presence with someone that uses an electronic collar. I have no information on that specific trainer, I'm just commenting in general.
Especially if you have a feeling that fear (fearful of the other dogs) might be a factor in his aggressive behavior. 



> I wanted to ask you, why do you think I should knock the dominance theory? Because NILIF is working that he automatically isn't dominant?


Because dogs know we aren't dogs and don't think of themselves as "dominant" to us. There's been some very good links posted on here before regarding dominance theory; I think Crantastic linked a bunch so you might want to search them out. 

I can't give you training advice over the internet on such a serious issue and I'm not a professional trainer or behaviorist anyway; I'm just looking at it from how I'd be comfortable with any of my dogs (I foster) being trained. I've seen so-called "gentle ecollar" training go very very wrong with serious consequences and while there may be dogs it does work for, there are many dogs that it won't and its so easy to mess up.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Dominance theory doesn't really apply here, for what you're seeing. It's really pretty simple:

Dogs do what works to get (and keep) what they want. If you don't have a treat in your hand, then no - he's not going to be motivated to perform, until the behavior is REALLY ingrained. That's what NILF gives you: the dog performs to get what it wants, and good behavior sinks in. It's also why his resource guarding is worse with other dogs. He really doesn't want to lose what he has, so he's doing what works to keep it.

Honestly, he mostly sounds like a pretty insecure dog. (This is not a professional assessment).

And, without being snappish? I REALLY wouldn't grab that dog by any kind of collar again. Lure him if you can, and don't ask him to perform without a payout for him around for a while. Build both some confidence and, mostly, *don't get bitten again*. 

I'd stay away from 'Electronic Motivation'. I use an electric collar on my deaf dog, and I know it doesn't always have to hurt, but if your dog is insecure that he's going to lose all his 'stuff', that's not going to help and may make it worse.


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## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your concern and opinions it really does give me a lot to think about.

Gina, the behaviorist, is known worldwide as one of the top bloodhound trainers. *That* made me confident, because if anybody knows bloodhounds, it's her. She did tell me that all dogs are different and you cant lump them all together with the same training technique. (Reassuring that she would confirm what I wanted her to say) I would not want him to become worse from being correcting with a shock, especially if he can be temperamental about corrections with a collar. As for her being 'harsh', that I am not sure yet. I have never SEEN her work with a dog before and I told her that I would want to see her evaluate/START with me there watching because I did say I'd like to learn more. I am not 100% sure if she would use the 'GEM' method on Ruger, as I would expect her to see his fearfulness and shy away from that technique, that being said, if she did continue forward with it I would know she wasn't a professional at all.

I'm going to look up dominance theories right now on the threads. I'm a little skeptical that there is no such thing as dominance. If he doesn't have a leader (me with my mistakes) wouldn't he assume leader role/dominant role?


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## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

Although, I should clarify that he is a rather fearful dog but he has never been dog or human aggressive. He has just recently started showing aggression over things he usually takes. It's not usually something given to him.


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## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

BCosta said:


> I'm going to look up dominance theories right now on the threads. I'm a little skeptical that there is no such thing as dominance. If he doesn't have a leader (me with my mistakes) wouldn't he assume leader role/dominant role?


No because I doubt dogs think that way, however I know people that do.

Dogs do what works. They don't care about 'dominating' you or being the leader. Of course you are the leader. Exactly what resource or freedom does your dog have access to without your permission? I bet nothing.

Sorry, I am frustrated with all the scientifically unfounded 'alpha' and 'dominance' talk that is so common today. And it isn't you, you at least are trying to learn and do the right thing for your pup. You are not part of the problem. And after you research this, I think you'll come around.

I love this meme on Jean Donaldson's Blog: Dave's Fear

]Monty[


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Here's a post by Crantastic that has some good links to read



Crantastic said:


> People on this thread have given you good advice, and I wouldn't ignore it. A professional is a great idea if you feel this issue is beyond your pay grade, so to speak, but go for a certified behaviorist, not a trainer. Some trainers are excellent, but when it comes to behavioral issues, too many of them believe in all of that alpha junk and end up making things much worse.
> 
> I have some good links for you to read:
> 
> ...


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## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

Monsteroyd said:


> No because I doubt dogs think that way, however I know people that do.
> 
> Dogs do what works. They don't care about 'dominating' you or being the leader. Of course you are the leader. Exactly what resource or freedom does your dog have access to without your permission? I bet nothing.
> 
> ...




I'm sorry! I really do appreciate your help! I feel so out of the loop now that I've been thinking one way and never heard of this! I am so glad that I'm learning though, I really want to know all I can. Thank you so much for the read you are a great help!



Shell said:


> Here's a post by Crantastic that has some good links to read


Thank you Shell you are so helpful! I am reading it all right now!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Run far away from that trainer.

Honestly, the breed doesn't matter. I know you want advice specific to bloodhounds, but positive reinforcement training is scientifically proven and works with all dogs (and birds, whales, dolphins, horses, etc etc). Find a qualified behaviorist (not just a trainer) who can show you how to work with him using positive techniques (shock collars for every aspect of train is not a positive technique, whatever that lady says). http://www.dacvb.org/ 

Others posted some good links on dominance and why it's totally bunk. Dogs do what works. If you make good behavior work for him (the basic principle of NILF), he will practice good behavior. You already control all of the resources, so figure out how to make that work to your advantage instead of worrying about how dominant you are. He's not trying to dominate you and take over the world, he's just an insecure dog who is acting defensive because he doesn't trust you or the other dogs at this point, but a good behaviorist can help you work on that. Resource guarding is a really fixable problem and hopefully by fixing that some of his other fear aggressive responses will diminish.


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## BCosta (Nov 27, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Run far away from that trainer.
> 
> Honestly, the breed doesn't matter. I know you want advice specific to bloodhounds, but positive reinforcement training is scientifically proven and works with all dogs (and birds, whales, dolphins, horses, etc etc). Find a qualified behaviorist (not just a trainer) who can show you how to work with him using positive techniques (shock collars for every aspect of train is not a positive technique, whatever that lady says). http://www.dacvb.org/
> 
> Others posted some good links on dominance and why it's totally bunk. Dogs do what works. If you make good behavior work for him (the basic principle of NILF), he will practice good behavior. You already control all of the resources, so figure out how to make that work to your advantage instead of worrying about how dominant you are. He's not trying to dominate you and take over the world, he's just an insecure dog who is acting defensive because he doesn't trust you or the other dogs at this point, but a good behaviorist can help you work on that. Resource guarding is a really fixable problem and hopefully by fixing that some of his other fear aggressive responses will diminish.



Thank you elrohwen! I'm beginning to become more confident that I'm on the right track now which makes me feel so relieved. I know it will be a long road, but I'm more confident that I can handle the work that's required.


Thank you everyone! (Ruger appreciates it too!)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

What a cute wrinkly face!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

it sounds like defensive reactions.. That you two relationship has definetly gotten off track on communication to need to step back breath "above given info solid" going back to square one My little tid bit for starters is try to avoid setting the dog up into push and shove situations he can't handle right now while. The more you can keep him out of those high stimulas situations the better for him to settle down and focus on other team activities. Its a time you can work on teach skills Commands that will help those high stimulas situations when they happen.. My two faves of consideration.. I once heard horses are dangerious because they will leap where YOU are standing if they get spooked in the spot they in???? I guess like your spot would oddly be safer to them.. It has it merits of application.. If you get stuck in a behavioral situation, you have two choices that are obvious... One let the dog win (not good), or have a knock down fight with the dog over it so you can force a win (again doesn't help set up a positive for the next time  ) get the dog to move from the spot they in, just like the idea with the horse for some odd reason a different spot is actually now different for them. Sheer difference of what your working with in that moment,, a dog who digs in, in the spot they in, or a dog who has had some in the moment tention release little looser to work with when they move to a different spot.. Do find it more natural and less offensive for dogs to do the approaching, so I always train (gives) having them come to me.. I always use what I know of the dog and what is natural to them in movement or interesting to them.. To get them to move... Most of the time putting your hands on for direction to dogs that are re habing only stimulates them too much (and you seldom reach the positive interaction learning when they get in that state of stimulas).. that you have to control the environment, and use your body to interest them in what your doing to get them in motion and manuvered where you want them to go.. 

He's beautiful... !!! be above the fight at all times ,, even if the dog wants to take it in that direction,, think,,, how you can change it around


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