# Choosing a first dog- need help selecting a breed



## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

We are a family with young children and have a tall order in finding a right dog for our family. We are looking for a puppy and not looking at rescue dogs at this time in order to find a breeds that will be a good match for our family. I'd love some recommendations on breeds for our family situation
-we have 3 children aged 2-9 y/o. 
-we live 75% of the year in a small home in NYC with a tiny backyard (we have access to a nice large park with a nice doggie run)
- we spend our summers and long breaks at our hobby farm- that has a few cattle, pigs, occasionally goats and sheep, and always free range chickens
-we also have a few free range chickens in our small backyard in NYC, so a dog who can be trained to be nice to chickens is essential
- we have one child who is prone to allergies (not dog but lots of other things) so I'd prefer a low shedding or hypo-allergenic dog
- we'd like to have a dog that is pretty friendly with the neighborhood children 
- we'd like a fairly adaptable dog- for city and farm life
- we think a medium size dog suits us best

I've been told to look for a working dog, but to be careful of a heeler dog who may nip at my toddler. Any breed suggestions?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Realistically because you live in the city with a small backyard and you have several children I don't know that a working dog is really ideal for you. How much time are you prepared to devote to exercising the dog both physically and mentally? I think some people hear "hobby farm" and assume you want a farm dog but unless you are living on the farm full time and intend to work the dog as a farm dog or intend to otherwise engage the dog I don't know that you actually want a working dog. However if you are very active and are ready to engage a dog in activities or need a dog to work maybe that is what you are looking for. 

If you are looking for low shedding have you considered a poodle. They come in three sizes the standard might be larger than you are looking for but miniature would be a good fit. They are friendly, generally easy to train and considered good with children. Other options might include Havanese, Bichon, and Maltese though those push into small dog territory and can be iffy in a home with small children. There are also the poodle mixes which are quite popular. We have a miniature poodle chihuahua mix we adopted just a week and a half ago. She is really a doll. I adopted her for my 8 year old, he is going to do dog sports with her. He has already taught her sit, down, stand and watch me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Good advice already. I think a poodle or Bichon would be a great fit.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I third a poodle or bichon. A working dog sounds like a bad idea given your situation 75% of the time.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

How much exercise are you willing to give a day?
You have a two year old. Are you prepared to add another by needing to take the dog to the bathroom every 30 minutes, right after meals and naps and play, constantly supervise the dog, not be able to take it anywhere until the shots are finished, deal with crying all throughout the night?
Are you willing to spend close to $1000 for a puppy from a good breeder, that you may have to wait months to a year or more for?


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

I'll also vote for poodle! I have a standard sized schnauzer/poodle mix that adores kids and is extremely friendly with other dogs and people. Since he's a mix it's hard to know what traits can be attributed to which breed and what comes down to nature vs nurture, but we have prioritized a lot of socialization from the time we picked him up from the rescue. 

There are some terrier breeds (Airedale, Wheaten, Bedlington, Kerry Blue) that are supposed to be better for allergy sufferers, but that might be a gamble with your chickens. A Portuguese Waterdog is another option, but may require more exercise than you'll be able to give, depending on how much time you're willing to devote to walking. My std poodle mixed pup does have quite a bit of energy so a mid sized poodle may be a better fit.

What size are you thinking and how much grooming are you prepared for?


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

To me it sounds like a goldendoodle might be just right as well. I grew up with golden retrievers and know two people who have goldendoodles. They are outstanding family dogs and just about the friendliest you will find. They get along great with other dogs and I have never seen any aggression from the ones I have known. Being part poodle helps with the shedding and allergies (no dog is allergy free) and if you keep their hair clipped they look good too. All of ours loved to go out and play and swim but were also perfectly content laying at your feet or sitting with you on the couch. It's as if they adapted their mood to whatever the situation was. They are also very intelligent and were very easy to train. As far as kids go they adore them and are as tolerant as you can get.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Except you have to go through a rescue or shelter or get one.
Unless you don't mind supporting an irresponsible breeder.


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

HollowHeaven said:


> Except you have to go through a rescue or shelter or get one.
> Unless you don't mind supporting an irresponsible breeder.


I know. That's the only problem I have with it is that it's a mixed breed and don't like supporting that but you can't argue their traits. I figured someone would quickly make mention of that.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Bully13 said:


> To me it sounds like a goldendoodle might be just right as well. I grew up with golden retrievers and know two people who have goldendoodles. They are outstanding family dogs and just about the friendliest you will find. They get along great with other dogs and I have never seen any aggression from the ones I have known. Being part poodle helps with the shedding and allergies (no dog is allergy free) and if you keep their hair clipped they look good too. All of ours loved to go out and play and swim but were also perfectly content laying at your feet or sitting with you on the couch. It's as if they adapted their mood to whatever the situation was. They are also very intelligent and were very easy to train. As far as kids go they adore them and are as tolerant as you can get.


You can get all of those things in a poodle without supporting back yard breeders and puppy mills. 

I grew up with bichons and poodles. I know the reputation is "frou-frou ornament", but they are great dogs. They're both very loyal, intelligent, biddable dogs that love their people to the ends of the Earth. Poodles are a little more serious, bichons a little more silly. They are most definitely dogs and can participate in any sort of sport you'd like, or go 9 rounds with the kids and still have energy for a hike. I'd recommend keeping them in a puppy cut- all the fur cut short- not the silly bobble headed, ankle poof show cuts. You do have to have them groomed every 6 weeks and they need to be brushed 3x a week to prevent matting, but if you've ever lived through a shed, you'll appreciate the time saved in picking fur out of your food.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Except you have to go through a rescue or shelter or get one.
> Unless you don't mind supporting an irresponsible breeder.


They do show up in shelters/rescues but you definitely have to be patient and ready to act fast because they get adopted very quickly (puppies in general really). I have allergies so we were searching for anything poodle (pure bred or mixed) along with various other "low allergy" breeds. The thing we ran into with a lot of goldendoodles in rescues was Canine Megaesophagus. I don't know if it's particularly common with that mix, but there were certainly a lot of them!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Bully13 said:


> I know. That's the only problem I have with it is that it's a mixed breed and don't like supporting that but you can't argue their traits. I figured someone would quickly make mention of that.


I actually can as all the ones I've met have been nutbags


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> I actually can as all the ones I've met have been nutbags


We have 3 goldendoodles in our neighborhood (75lbs, 45lbs, and 15lbs) and I wouldn't describe any of them as nutbags... well maybe the 15lb pup but he's only 4 mo. It's also possible that I love nutbags and our definitions differ  The 75lb goldendoodle does agility and is very regal in the way he carries himself, but he's also been very well trained by his owners and gets a great deal of exercise.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I saw that they can shave and test the individual cats for low or higher then normal allergens that is normal in cats, can they do it with dogs too ??? I also suggest for the two breeds mentioned that will need grooming,, is to visit your local grooming facilities and check out qualifications, pricing and how often they require to see the dog for that price.. A friend who got a standard poodle, "awesome dog just what she wanted in the breed" is paying $50.00 for grooming,, she took her girl to a second groomer that was only $30.00 but got much less quality cut and a few blade burns and nicks.. So if yearly cost would be an upfront need to calculate checking out the local available grooming facility would be helpful.


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

Here are my three choices for you. Number one being my own choice for my future family dog.

1. *Bichon Frise*








*Height: Males 9 - 12 inches (23 – 30 cm) Females 9 - 11 inches (23 – 28 cm)
*Weight: 7 - 12 pounds (3 – 5 kg)
*Shedding: none or very light
*Not much barking
*Very friendly
*Easy to train
*Moderate exercise needed
*OK without a yard
*Excellent with children

2. *Miniature Poodle*








*Height: 11 - 15 inches (28 - 38 cm)
*Weight: 15 - 17 pounds (7 - 8 kg)
*Shedding: none or very light
*Likes to bark
*Reserved with strangers
*Very easy to train
*Moderate exercise needed
*OK without a yard
*Better with older, consider children

3. *Standard Poodle*








*Height: 15 inches (38 cm) or more.
*Weight: Males 45 - 70 pounds (20 - 32 kg) Females 45 - 60 pounds (20 - 27 kg)
*Shedding: none or very light
*Average barking
*Reserved with strangers
*Very easy to train
*Lots of exercise needed
*Needs at least a small outdoor yard
*Excellent with children

Here is a direct comparison between the three suggested breeds. 

*Note: hypoallergenic breeds need regular grooming. Consider that in the monthly/bimonthly cost.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

My vote goes for a poodle too... and also, not a puppy. Puppies and young children are not a good match. Puppies need undivided attention and are made entirely of teeth. You can get young adult dogs from breeders (or breed specific rescues) and it'd probably make your life a whole heck of a lot easier.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

I have friends with both (poodle and doodle) I have to say I like the doodle best. the coats alittle easier , its still allotta work but it grows to a set length and stops so you can keep it trimmed alittle easier.
but in a similar living situation (well not really) but we kept our condo in the city as we commute once a week for a couple -3 days and then back to our hobby farm. 
Have an 11 yr old (she was born into our dog owning family- Boxers- cant reccommend them enough as active, trainable, handler oriented, fun loving pups that are great kid dogs)...
One thing I would say having a schnauzer with the long fringes on her paws and underbelly- that kind of coat , and even the poodles soft fluff -- is TERRIBLE in farm life, it gets so matted dirty and brings in slush and mud like she has mops for feet. Unless you just keep them clipped down super short (lotsa clipping).
Even the long coated dogs like our Berner and Pyr-cross are much easier as they naturally have shorter hair on their feet and lower legs- its a an odd detail, but this makes a difference...
The Berner has absolutely no prey drive (despite being a vigilant watchdog! ) and loves loves his people though- he was the easiest with livestock- we have freerange chickens, goats, and 3 cats....He still thinks he is a 9 lb puppy (he started off in the condo, and I actually see quite a few Berners in SF these days, and you guys do have a yard in the city(we were on the 3rd floor) so that breed would be doable.. 
He will be 3 this yr and so far very healthy but with a tendency to gain weight ...
Ok I digressed abit, hope this information is useful.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> Except you have to go through a rescue or shelter or get one.
> Unless you don't mind supporting an irresponsible breeder.


There's actually some pretty responsible Labradoodle breeders. And honestly I think a labradoodle would be perfect.

My grandma has a Goldendoodle (which is obviously different than a labrapoodle) and he's a little bit of a spazz BUT my grandma doesn't do ANYTHING with him. He really needs an outlet for his energy. When he does focus, he focuses very well, I was so pleasantly surprised to work with him and see how smart he actually was. He's also a saint with the grandkids.

But I think there's more of a standard with the Labradoodles. My dentist actually breeds them (well, he and his wife) and they're got a serious breeding program. They often fly out of state to breed with other females, their dogs are all health tested, and they make you sign contracts and microchip their pups so they never end up in a shelter. Their ex-breeding females stay with them when they retire as loved pets.


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

Thank-you everyone for your many suggestions. Please keep them coming. I'm trying to be thorough with my research to find a right match.


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

Poodles are on my short list. I was also considering some types of terriers as I've read about some that might work with chickens. I am especially keen on the Portuguese Water Dog and all the water dogs. I worry about the energy. I think our family can handle a high energy dog but I recognize we haven't owned a dog before so I should be cautious about this.


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

Hambonez said:


> My vote goes for a poodle too... and also, not a puppy. Puppies and young children are not a good match. Puppies need undivided attention and are made entirely of teeth. You can get young adult dogs from breeders (or breed specific rescues) and it'd probably make your life a whole heck of a lot easier.


I'm surprised by your suggestion to get an adult dog. I'd not considered that. All the research I've done recommends getting a puppy to train it properly with children, chickens, and our lifestyle. I'd be interested on hearing more about this.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Knittingmami said:


> We are a family with young children and have a tall order in finding a right dog for our family. We are looking for a puppy and not looking at rescue dogs at this time in order to find a breeds that will be a good match for our family.


Honestly, this would be the exact reason I would suggest an adult dog and not a puppy. With an adult dog the temperament is known and you can quickly see how kid-safe and livestock-safe the animal is and how well it fits into your household. With a puppy the future personality is not predictable even with a well-bred dog from a generally affable breed, and if you've never had dogs before raising a puppy to behave correctly in a demanding environment like the one you describe may be a huge challenge. Also I wouldn't want an adolescent dog around a toddler. A lot of the more generally family-friendly breeds of dog like Goldens are absolute maniacs as adolescents.

Not every adult rescue, shelter or rehoming dog is a problem dog. Dogs are constantly shuffled off for reasons like financial problems or moves. Reputable rescues will attempt to match the right dog to the individual situation as they certainly don't want the dog back.


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

Jackson's Mom- Good to know there are responsible breeders. I am definitely torn about this. It seems the most ethical thing to do is to get a rescue dog but it also seems irresponsible to not understand the dog's breed in matching it to our family so we can properly provide a forever home. Right now I'm focusing my researching identifying the best breeds for our family and once that's identified I'll shift my research to buying it from the right source.


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> I have friends with both (poodle and doodle) I have to say I like the doodle best. the coats alittle easier , its still allotta work but it grows to a set length and stops so you can keep it trimmed alittle easier.
> but in a similar living situation (well not really) but we kept our condo in the city as we commute once a week for a couple -3 days and then back to our hobby farm.
> Have an 11 yr old (she was born into our dog owning family- Boxers- cant reccommend them enough as active, trainable, handler oriented, fun loving pups that are great kid dogs)...
> One thing I would say having a schnauzer with the long fringes on her paws and underbelly- that kind of coat , and even the poodles soft fluff -- is TERRIBLE in farm life, it gets so matted dirty and brings in slush and mud like she has mops for feet. Unless you just keep them clipped down super short (lotsa clipping).
> ...


Berner max- thks for your input as you also have/ had a dual residente situation. Your comments about coats are appreciated. My husband is concerned about coat care on the farm. We have lots of woodland aside from pasture and we don't want a poor dog miserable with burrs every time we hike through the woods. I think the Berners are lovely but aren't they large dogs? We have a small yard in NYC and access to a large park but I worry about getting a big dog and having him miserable in NYC.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Knittingmami said:


> Berner max- thks for your input as you also have/ had a dual residente situation. Your comments about coats are appreciated. My husband is concerned about coat care on the farm. We have lots of woodland aside from pasture and we don't want a poor dog miserable with burrs every time we hike through the woods. I think the Berners are lovely but aren't they large dogs? We have a small yard in NYC and access to a large park but I worry about getting a big dog and having him miserable in NYC.


Well we got our house (only 2 acres) with the dogs in mind, but if I could do it the other way around I would not chose anything with that type of coat- (even our giant schnauzer has an "american style"- less wirey and longer coat)... its not suited to farm life. 
The Berners are large but not giant (females can run in the 80-90 lb range, our boxers who lived in a 3rd floor condo with us were 75 and 78 lbs, and much more active than the Berners).... You are right next to a park and have a yard for dog to get out and stretch and just has some time to be out laying under a tree with the chickens. They are quite mellow and if you just take them along to the park a couple of times a day they will be fine. They have their puppy energy but they do settle nicely by age 2... I worry about the temps more- in SF its quite temperate mild and cool yr around, they do not leave the air conditioning in hot humid weather...and they do love love snow, our boy will lay out and let the flakes land on him ... he loves it... (this could be handy for your winters)... But, be prepared, you will have to watch dog- toddler (regardless of size I think)... but by the time puppy grows up your toddler will be fairly mobile (age 3 right?)...
Ok lost my train of thought.
What is your dog experience? That makes a difference too. but so does the temprament and energy level of the breed:
when we took our Pyr cross pup to class(he is 90 lbs at 11 months) the mom with little (20 lbs) terrier mix would look at us enviously as her pup was just a ball of energy chewing and nipping and barking and our boy would just... take a nap at our feet ... 
Even now he is very mellow, but, alittle more mischiveous than the Berner not something I would suggest for your situation... the Berner is way more biddable...
Also a large dog could be difficult to handle when you are pushing a stroller etc.. Maybe a farm collie? That might work too and not so heavy a breed...


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

I'm still torn on the "get an adult dog" suggestion. I mean, everyone says you "get to know their temperament" but honestly, how well can you get to know a rescue dog before bringing it home. Sure, you can go and see it and take the kids along and maybe it will play and lick you. I guess you could take a chicken along to see how it reacts. I just don't see how a few hours in a room at a shelter can give you a good idea of how a dog will behave when you get it home. It's pretty much get the best idea you can but when you get the dog home there are still a ton of unknowns with the dog that you have to figure out as you go. Don't get me wrong, I think there are plenty of scenarios where rescue dogs are great and would recommend them in a heartbeat. I just think some people are too quick to suggest rescues to everyone looking for a dog because they think it's the right thing to do. You let me have a dog from a puppy around my children, around my house and around my livestock and I can guarantee you almost 100% that it will be better suited for my house by the time he's 2 than any two year old rescue you give me. They learn every quirk, every rule and every command you want them to while bonding fully with the family. How's a rescue react to a kid tripping and falling on it by accident or playing with it the way only a kid can? If you have kids you know they can come up with some crazy ideas of "fun". Unless you try each and every one you don't know how the rescue will act. A puppy will be raised with the kids and learn these things and accept them as the norm without any question marks hovering overhead. In this scenario I still firmly believe a puppy to be best suited and still suggest a goldendoodle. Poodles are very good pets in the right circumstances but there is no doubt that a golden retriever is easily classified as the more family friendly of the two. If you want the ultimate family dog but in a slightly more hypoallergenic model than I think a goldendoodle is it. As for terriers I've had both a jack russell and a bull terrier and they are a different animal all together. Much higher energy, definitely a higher prey drive and I would be very concerned my chickens wouldn't last two long around them if you know what I mean.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I live in the country and my family and I are building a hobby farm. 

I have corgis, the Cardigan variety, and also have a 22 month old. 

I don't think you need an adult rescue dog. I think you would be just fine getting a puppy from a great breeder. 

This forum is very pro rescue, and I think sometimes people tend to forget there are other options, and you don't have to adopt a rescue dog just to "be responsible." 

IN fact, I think that getting a dog that fits to your lifestyle is the most responsible thing you can do, rather then just getting a rescue dog that may or may not fit your needs long term. My motto is, "The right dog in the right home." 

Anyway, I do herding with my corgis. They don't herd my kid because they have an outlet and they know the difference between humans and sheep.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

There aren't many doodles or poodles sitting around in shelters for you to meet, really. So I think they're suggesting getting a rescue dog not from a shelter but from a rescue, and I know there are many breed specific rescues where you can find doodles and poodles! So if she does choose to go the adult route, it doesn't have to be a random dog she saw in a kennel. Most of the times these dogs have foster homes and she could pick one that is known to be good with children. Just because a dog is raised with children doesn't necessarily mean it's going to end up loving being around them!


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

An adult dog doesn't have to be a rescue - an older puppy/young adult dog from a breeder is a possibility.


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## shoret411 (Apr 30, 2014)

There are lots of Goldendoodle breeders, at least in Missouri. I am 30 and just got my very first dog and I adopted a Maltichon (Maltese & Bichon Frise) I know both of those were mentioned. It is non shedding so it's hypoallergenic. I have read that Bichon's are smart so they are supposed to be easier to train. You should look up non shedding dogs b/c of the allergy thing and go from there. I live in an apartment so this is a good dog for me. Another option is a Cavalier King or a Cavapoo, they are a little bigger.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

Eenypup said:


> There aren't many doodles or poodles sitting around in shelters for you to meet, really. So I think they're suggesting getting a rescue dog not from a shelter but from a rescue, and I know there are many breed specific rescues where you can find doodles and poodles! So if she does choose to go the adult route, it doesn't have to be a random dog she saw in a kennel. Most of the times these dogs have foster homes and she could pick one that is known to be good with children. Just because a dog is raised with children doesn't necessarily mean it's going to end up loving being around them!


Why are you pushing rescue when the OP said she wanted a breeder dog?


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I can give you an answer on the PWD!! I have one. The first 4 years of her life I was wondering what the heck had i gone and done??!! These dogs are WICKED smart and super busy. If you don't keep them busy, they will invent their own form of entertainment. My dog chewed through 3 crate pans, and typically we only ever leave home about 3x a week for no more than 4 hours at a time. I took her for daily 2 hour walks, took her to training classes 2x a week, and she STILL was not at all tired. It wasn't until she turned 4 that I realized I wasn't managing her constantly. She is now 4 ½ and laying down next to DS who will happily rub her head for as long as she wants (he loves her!) At the time I had a 5 and 7 year old when I got her as a puppy, and holy cow she's a lot of work! She will happily counter surf, so you will not be able to leave so much as a tidbit of anything on the counter. They WILL get it. Echo has taken a 10 ounce porterhouse steak, several muffins, fruit, leftovers on plates, loaves of bread. By now, though, I've got 'preventive measures' and any leftover food that doesn't go straight to the fridge gets put up in the microwave to wait to be put away. She will eat anything that has a flavor. Including whatever is in the cat box, sticks, toys, etc. These dogs are CONSTANTLY busy!

I had chickens as well, and she was trained to be curious of them but not to chase or harass them in any way. PWDs learn wicked fast, but if you are not 'in charge' and quick to redirect 'naughty' behavior, they WILL take over. Regular, ongoing obedience training is an absolute MUST! Also, if you can't provide a good, brisk walk (or better yet, a jog) daily, then I highly recommend against PWDs! Especially with kids as young as yours, they still need a lot of attention, and that puppy is going to take a ton of your attention as well. 

I also have a bichon and a mini poodle. The bichon is a very old lady, but tolerates the kids fine (they are now 10 and 7). Mini poodle loves the kids, loves to play ball, will be 'up' when you want him to be (to play or train or go for a walk), will chill out when you need him too, BUT the temperaments within the breed can vary, so when yo talk to a breeder, be sure you describe the type of temperament that would be ideal for your family. I like the mini poodle size because he's pretty sturdy! With all the busy feet around here if his toes get stepped on, it's usually not a worry, unlike a much smaller dog. Bichons are quite sturdy too! I absolutely LOVE that these guys don't shed! Another bonus!

I also have a chihuahua, but she is definitely NOT a kid dog, so I don't recommend this breed to families. 

I've interacted with Lowchen (you don't have to do the lion haircut) and havanese who are delightfully happy and enjoy the company of all people. 
Those 2 breeds are on my bucket list, actually  

Hope this helps!


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> Why are you pushing rescue when the OP said she wanted a breeder dog?


Why do you always single me out for 'pushing rescue'?! You have some vendetta against me and rescuing? Geez! If you read the rest of the thread, many people suggested it and the OP said she was interested in considering an adult (potentially rescue) dog. I just wanted to elaborate on why others have suggested rescuing an adult dog and how that might be possible. 

And I QUOTE from the OP: "I'm surprised by your suggestion to get an adult dog. I'd not considered that. All the research I've done recommends getting a puppy to train it properly with children, chickens, and our lifestyle. *I'd be interested on hearing more about this*."


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Just wanted to throw it out there that not all terriers are the same, but yes mostly on the higher prey drive (we had an airedale growing up she was fine in the country, we didnt even have a fence, who found a baby bird and carried it around in its mouth very gently). Note that we have a giant schnnauzer (not reccommended unless one is on Your Bucket list) and she has been trained to live with chickens and goats, but does have a tendency to kill chicks ducklings, most little things (OK for when its rats and mice, but not when its your handraised orphan baby squirrels). Its doable though, we are on our 3 rd set of chicks, and first set of ducklings....(once the hens start setting their own clutches, losses are more tolerable, I have no idea how we are going to fit 29 chickens in a coop built for 16 this winter)...

And the coat issue... OP has kids and a busy lifestyle. Although I have to say the airedale was pretty easy (not nearly as "bad" as our schnauzer, although a more corrected coated one with the German wire coat would be easier)...


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

OP what are your top 4 dogs you are considering as of right now?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Bully13 said:


> I'm still torn on the "get an adult dog" suggestion. I mean, everyone says you "get to know their temperament" but honestly, how well can you get to know a rescue dog before bringing it home. Sure, you can go and see it and take the kids along and maybe it will play and lick you. I guess you could take a chicken along to see how it reacts. I just don't see how a few hours in a room at a shelter can give you a good idea of how a dog will behave when you get it home.


Many rescues and shelters not only allow but encourage a trial period in the home. If you are unaware of this possibility I might question how familiar you are, to be making such definitive statements about it.



> I just think some people are too quick to suggest rescues to everyone looking for a dog because they think it's the right thing to do. You let me have a dog from a puppy around my children, around my house and around my livestock and I can guarantee you almost 100% that it will be better suited for my house by the time he's 2 than any two year old rescue you give me. They learn every quirk, every rule and every command you want them to while bonding fully with the family.


The OP stated that this is their first dog. Many of the most common dog behavior problems come from inexperienced owners who get a pup not knowing how to train it up, and not being prepared for the difficult adolescent period between when the dog is nearly full-sized, and when it matures mentally. I'm glad you can almost 100% guarantee you'll raise a puppy to be a perfect dog, but this may not be realistic for every owner, nor indeed for all puppies, as the canine is a partner in this endeavor, you realize. For example, a friend of mine recently made the difficult decision to re-home a dog she'd raised from a pup. It is a sweet, well-bred, well-trained, well-socialized animal...that came into such a high prey drive toward animals as it grew to adulthood that she can't trust it on her farm without unceasing supervision. This was not predictable in the 8 week old pup. It will make an excellent pet for someone, but could not cut it as a farm dog.



> How's a rescue react to a kid tripping and falling on it by accident or playing with it the way only a kid can? If you have kids you know they can come up with some crazy ideas of "fun". Unless you try each and every one you don't know how the rescue will act. A puppy will be raised with the kids and learn these things and accept them as the norm without any question marks hovering overhead.


Many dogs raised with kids do not turn out 100% kid-safe or low-reactivity to the kind of random nonsense children will pull. While temperament is, of course, malleable, it also depends largely on the dog's inherent inclinations. How a "rescue" reacts depends entirely on the particular rescue.

I should say that I am not at all opposed in general to purchasing a pup from an ethical breeder. Ethical breeders should be supported and that's the most efficient way of doing so. But first time owners should be aware of all the pitfalls possible with even a well-bred pup, and should be aware of the adult dog option. I highly recommend considering adult dogs to people who have challenging requirements for the dog, and are not experienced at dog training. It may take some time to find the right adult dog, but once you do, you get to bypass all the puppy complications, and also of having to face the question of what to do when your cute puppy that you've had for 10 months and gotten all attached to starts showing signs that it is not going to be a child-safe or livestock-safe adult...


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Oh first dog hmmm.
Still as someone who has been there done that (kids, 2 homes city/ country) rescue and pup- I would still reccommend Pup- as long as OP can say she is really really committed. (thats goes for rescue or Pup actually) and has a backup plan for dog if its not doable-- note we ended up doing Boot camp for our schnuazer, and never thought we would be "those" kind of people.
Honestly, I think OP may be better off with a smaller female lab - one of the English type ones (sort of shorter, and stocky)....

Our dogs had never even seen a chicken when they moved, and it is... doable....
And I have to say our schnauzer has extremely high prey drive- she is locked in goat pen so I can get into the shower (broody hen appears to be taking the 9 day olds out for a walk at this time)....


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

parus said:


> Many rescues and shelters not only allow but encourage a trial period in the home. If you are unaware of this possibility I might question how familiar you are, to be making such definitive statements about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, it sounds pretty obvious you're completely biased towards a rescue so it's rescue or nothing but I'm not buying it. Give me a dog I raised my own from the time it was a puppy and I guarantee you it will be better behaved around my children, family and livestock than an unknown rescue. Spin it however you like. As I said, being unbiased I would be willing to suggest a rescue but don't feel it's right in this case. First time owner, children, animals, multiple locations to get used to. How many scenarios do you want to throw at an unknown adult dog? 

That raises another point. Why do some people suggest rescue for every single scenario and then picks apart someone else's suggestion of not getting a rescue for a certain scenario? I get and support the rescue thing but using your logic you could probably make a case for a rescue in every situation which sort of hampers the whole "unbiased" thing.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Bully13 said:


> Well, it sounds pretty obvious you're completely biased towards a rescue so it's rescue or nothing but I'm not buying it. Give me a dog I raised my own from the time it was a puppy and I guarantee you it will be better behaved around my children, family and livestock than an unknown rescue. Spin it however you like. As I said, being unbiased I would be willing to suggest a rescue but don't feel it's right in this case. First time owner, children, animals, multiple locations to get used to. How many scenarios do you want to throw at an unknown adult dog?
> 
> That raises another point. Why do some people suggest rescue for every single scenario and then picks apart someone else's suggestion of not getting a rescue for a certain scenario? I get and support the rescue thing but using your logic you could probably make a case for a rescue in every situation which sort of hampers the whole "unbiased" thing.


I've got no issues with people choosing to support responsible breeders but I would 100% have more confidence in getting an adult rescue from a foster situation when the concern is over being good with kids. I'm sorry but no matter what you do some dogs just aren't going to like kids. Raised around kids from a puppy in a home that didn't allow the kids to terrorize the dog they would most likely be manageable with the kids but that does NOT mean they will like the kids. 

Honestly with your banter it really doesn't sound like you have much experience with dogs in rescue. You may very well have raised a number of puppies to be whatever you wanted but breed factors in a lot too. As your username suggests if most of your dogs have been bully breeds then you have started already with breed in your favor for being child friendly. 

Going to a breeder isn't a horrible idea for the OP but given their description of their situation an adult rescue from a foster situation would be a much easier choice. Puppies are a LOT of work.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Dagwall said everything I was going to say, so I won't belabor the point!


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

dagwall said:


> Honestly with your banter it really doesn't sound like you have much experience with dogs in rescue. You may very well have raised a number of puppies to be whatever you wanted but breed factors in a lot too. As your username suggests if most of your dogs have been bully breeds then you have started already with breed in your favor for being child friendly.
> 
> .


LOL...I've had golden retrievers, labs, Jack Russell Terriers, English Bull Terriers, Boxers and Beagles so I have experience in all extremes. I've also rescued and halped many others rescue so I have experience on BOTH sides of the fence. The difference between you and I is that you only think that one side of the fence is the right side of the fence. 

I love how you say I started in my FAVOR by selecting a breed that was already good with kids. Well no crap! That's exactly what the OP was asking! Sorry I suggested a breed renowned for being great with kids and giving the puppy an edge over a rescue...silly me for answering what was asked. You show me a golden retriever who was raised with kids and then as an adult was mean to those same kids. You can't. Bet you can't say the same for rescues. Sorry, but I'll take a golden that's raised from a pup around my family over a rescue any day of the week and trust it 100% more. Like I said. There are thousands of rescues out there who LOVE kids and would make great pets. With all the scenarios in play in this situation it's just not the place.

Heck, just last week a dog right down the road was put down. Adult dog. Purebred St. Bernard. Loved playing with kids and other dogs. It went to a farm and within seconds had killed two goats without any warning. So in your thinking this adult dog would have been better than a puppy raised around those animals it's entire life?!?!? Don't tell me that you can temperament test that either. This dog was great with kids and dogs and it was completely unprovoked.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Bully13 said:


> LOL...I've had golden retrievers, labs, Jack Russell Terriers, English Bull Terriers, Boxers and Beagles so I have experience in all extremes. I've also rescued and halped many others rescue so I have experience on BOTH sides of the fence. The difference between you and I is that you only think that one side of the fence is the right side of the fence.
> 
> I love how you say I started in my FAVOR by selecting a breed that was already good with kids. Well no crap! That's exactly what the OP was asking! Sorry I suggested a breed renowned for being great with kids and giving the puppy an edge over a rescue...silly me for answering what was asked. You show me a golden retriever who was raised with kids and then as an adult was mean to those same kids. You can't. Bet you can't say the same for rescues. Sorry, but I'll take a golden that's raised from a pup around my family over a rescue any day of the week and trust it 100% more. Like I said. There are thousands of rescues out there who LOVE kids and would make great pets. With all the scenarios in play in this situation it's just not the place.
> 
> Heck, just last week a dog right down the road was put down. Adult dog. Purebred St. Bernard. Loved playing with kids and other dogs. It went to a farm and within seconds had killed two goats without any warning. So in your thinking this adult dog would have been better than a puppy raised around those animals it's entire life?!?!? Don't tell me that you can temperament test that either. This dog was great with kids and dogs and it was completely unprovoked.


The dog killed... goats. I'm not sure what that has to do with it being good with kids or not.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> The dog killed... goats. I'm not sure what that has to do with it being good with kids or not.


Yep, zero reason to put the dog down over killing goats. Don't take them back to a farm with livestock for sure but killing a goat won't suddenly make them bad with children and other dogs. Your example is flawed.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> The dog killed... goats. I'm not sure what that has to do with it being good with kids or not.


My guess is the St. Bernard example was meant to say that the farm and chicken part of the OP's requirements may not be as easily observed in a rescue or foster setting as how the dog does with children and other pets. 

The way I see it, there's always a chance you're taking in bringing a dog home, no matter the age or source. Even a carefully bred puppy with health tested parents can have unanticipated behavior or health problems. The OP sounds like she's doing her breed research and is considering a responsible breeder or rescue route vs. a mill or BYB puppy. This is the best we can do as dog owners; research, make educated/responsible decisions, and then bring the puppy/dog home and do everything we can to set them up for success.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

pinksand said:


> My guess is the St. Bernard example was meant to say that the farm and chicken part of the OP's requirements may not be as easily observed in a rescue or foster setting as how the dog does with children and other pets.
> 
> The way I see it, there's always a chance you're taking in bringing a dog home, no matter the age or source. Even a carefully bred puppy with health tested parents can have unanticipated behavior or health problems. The OP sounds like she's doing her breed research and is considering a responsible breeder or rescue route vs. a mill or BYB puppy. This is the best we can do as dog owners; research, make educated/responsible decisions, and then bring the puppy/dog home and do everything we can to set them up for success.


Well the part that confuses me is that they say "you can't temperament test for that". I'm not sure how you would be prevented from making sure the dog was good with livestock before you brought it home if that was a major consideration. If that dog had never been around livestock before you'd have no reason to just presume it would be okay, so I'm not sure where the comparison is.


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

pinksand hit the nail on the head. The OP said 25% of the time this dog will be at a farm. My point was, that you cannot temperament test for that no matter what you do at the rescue. That is a big uncertainty to take when dealing with that many animals for that amount of time. Why risk it when you can increase your odds by raising a breed known to be good with animals and kids with the animals their entire lives. Obviously neither one is a certainty but one definitely has better odds. It just seems like some people try to cram the square rescue peg into every round hole that pops up.


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

dagwall said:


> Yep, zero reason to put the dog down over killing goats. Don't take them back to a farm with livestock for sure but killing a goat won't suddenly make them bad with children and other dogs. Your example is flawed.


My example is perfect as it was meant to illustrate how perfectly friendly dogs their entire lives cannot be a certainty when taken around farm animals. Seeing as how that was one of the criteria outlined by the OP I think it was rather fitting to explain my point. If you would like to start yet another debate as to whether or not putting the dog down was justified then I suggest starting another thread. Otherwise you're jumping to conclusions without knowing all the info. Until then keep trying to hammer in your rescue peg.


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> The dog killed... goats. I'm not sure what that has to do with it being good with kids or not.


EXACTLY!!! Think of it the other way around which is how I explained it in the first place.

"The dog is great with kids and other dogs...how does that prove a thing about what it will do with livestock"?!?!

Go to a rescue and take the family and pick out the friendliest dog you can. What the heck does that show when you take it to the farm? NOTHING! What are you gonna do, load up half of Noah's ark to make sure the dog is ok?

Oh yeah, "you get a trial period". Sure, take fluffy to the farm. If he ends up killing a few chickens and a goat we'll take him back LMAO.

My point is still, why take that risk when you don't have to?!?


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Haha, do a forum search and you'll find a number of threads about people's dogs they raised from puppies killing their chickens. It's not a promise of livestock safe. Some rescues actually can livestock test, depends on the area. Not available in a lot of areas so likely isn't a help to the OP but might be. 

Honestly I don't care what the OP ends up doing and if you go back you'll see I was only talking about being good with kids, didn't say anything about livestock safe. In your example with the Saint Bernard that is really poor management by the owners. Any dog you've never had around livestock before should be on leash and watched carefully the first time you expose them. Being good with people, kids, dogs, and cats has nothing to do with how a dog will act around livestock, irresponsible owner.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

You can temperament test a rescue dog for livestock by exposing it to livestock. This is not exactly rocket science. It might involved a little field trip with the prospective dog but if someone's too lazy to do that, or the rescue is too inflexible to allow it, then probably neither should be dealing with dogs.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

dagwall said:


> Haha, do a forum search and you'll find a number of threads about people's dogs they raised from puppies killing their chickens. It's not a promise of livestock safe. Some rescues actually can livestock test, depends on the area. Not available in a lot of areas so likely isn't a help to the OP but might be.
> 
> Honestly I don't care what the OP ends up doing and if you go back you'll see I was only talking about being good with kids, didn't say anything about livestock safe. In your example with the Saint Bernard that is really poor management by the owners. Any dog you've never had around livestock before should be on leash and watched carefully the first time you expose them. Being good with people, kids, dogs, and cats has nothing to do with how a dog will act around livestock, irresponsible owner.


This is everything I was going to say.

Also, depending on the area it's entirely possible for dogs to be available that are already used to being around livestock.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Jeez I hate it when people kill dogs for killing livestock. Makes me see red. Idiots. 

Anyway, it does take a lot of training or natural low prey drive for a dog to be safe around chickens, particularly. They're so enticingly fluttery and squawky. It's not a thing that comes naturally unless it's a very low-prey-drive dog.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah mine has killed her fair share of chicks- for some reason its really hard to resist little squeaky fuzzy balls , but once they grow up to be "real chickens" she understands they are off limits.... 
And dogs guarding the land are priceless, ours wont let strange birds land (and we visited someone yesterday who explained that 1 dozen geese grazing can eat as much as a cow in one day).. or let roaming dogs, and predators in either.....

It would be hard if she killed goats, but aside from a bit of nipping at feeding time (everyone likes sweet feed) she is entirely redirectable...
Dogs need to be worked with - and they can be reformed...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Knittingmami said:


> We are a family with young children and have a tall order in finding a right dog for our family. We are looking for a puppy and not looking at rescue dogs at this time in order to find a breeds that will be a good match for our family. I'd love some recommendations on breeds for our family situation
> -we have 3 children aged 2-9 y/o.
> -we live 75% of the year in a small home in NYC with a tiny backyard (we have access to a nice large park with a nice doggie run)
> - we spend our summers and long breaks at our hobby farm- that has a few cattle, pigs, occasionally goats and sheep, and always free range chickens
> ...


No herding dogs, or working dogs. I don't know if you are a first time dog owner or not but a herding dog in the city that is not exercised AND has a lot things to chase (your kids included) is going to be a recipe for disaster. 

I have herding dogs, have had them for more then ten years, I also have donkeys, horses and goats and it IS possible to get them to think twice about chasing them, but the drive, the NEED to chase and herd is always there, right under the surface.

In the warm season I am out there for at times half the day stimulating and "working" my dogs. the younger female jogs with me (a mile and a 1/2) and she STILL has the energy to give the squirrels heck all day.

I would also say no to puppies under 6 mos, because young puppies are basically land sharks and they take a LOT of time. I would also say no to the terriers, because they are very "proud" dogs and typically can be intolerant of kids messing with them (not that that should happen anyway, mind you).




TheOtherCorgi said:


> I live in the country and my family and I are building a hobby farm.
> 
> I have corgis, the Cardigan variety, and also have a 22 month old.
> 
> ...


I don't think that anyone is saying that you HAVE to rescue to be responsible, but getting a dog from a good breeder takes TIME and patience, its about getting the waiting list and waiting for a breeding, then hoping that what you want will be available in that breeding or you have to wait ... etc. with rescue, there is no waiting, you go in, see a dog / puppy you like and adopt it, simple as that. Its a good alternative to think about if someone doesn't want to wait months/years for a dog. There is nothing wrong with rescue dogs, I have two and they. are. AWESOME.

Also corgis are (IMO) not as much on the end of the high drive spectrum as some of the other herding breeds. Sure its there, but its not to the extent as say, a kelpie or a BC, or an ACD. If I run around, yell and get excited, mine, even my 8 y/o male, Buddy will "go after" me. They won't bite at my lags or anything, but they certainly will cut me off and try to change my direction. In many cases this is not something that can be trained out, its just part of the dog.



Willowy said:


> Jeez I hate it when people kill dogs for killing livestock. Makes me see red. Idiots.
> 
> Anyway, it does take a lot of training or natural low prey drive for a dog to be safe around chickens, particularly. They're so enticingly fluttery and squawky. It's not a thing that comes naturally unless it's a very low-prey-drive dog.


I hate to say this, but if I saw a dog on my property chasing my livestock I would have no choice but to shoot it. Those are my animals and its my duty to protect them.



BernerMax said:


> Yeah mine has killed her fair share of chicks- for some reason its really hard to resist little squeaky fuzzy balls , but once they grow up to be "real chickens" she understands they are off limits....
> And dogs guarding the land are priceless, ours wont let strange birds land (and we visited someone yesterday who explained that 1 dozen geese grazing can eat as much as a cow in one day).. or let roaming dogs, and predators in either.....
> 
> It would be hard if she killed goats, but aside from a bit of nipping at feeding time (everyone likes sweet feed) she is entirely redirectable...
> Dogs need to be worked with - and they can be reformed...


I don't know if Josefina would kill chickens, but if they were in a separate area, like if they had their own yard inside the yard, then she wouldn't try to get to them, esp if they didn't run or anything, she doesn't see the point in chasing if the prey wont run LOL. she will even back off a rabbit if it stops running.


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## Bully13 (Apr 22, 2014)

Why is it that dogs get preferential treatment to someone else's livestock? I love reading the posts "my boo boo bear just got her first bunny..yeah!!! I'm so happy". Or, "she just couldn't resist those fluffy squeeky little things". Every post I see makes it look like it was an accomplishment or the dog just couldn't help themselves when they kill another animal. Seriously!?! If a dog kills something it is ALWAYS the dogs fault and it is ALWAYS a BAD THING!!!! Unless that fluffy bunny was mauling the dog and he killed it to save his life there is no justification for it. Those animals your dogs are killing may mean as much to their owner as your dog does to you so what gives anyone the right to think it's justified. I love dogs just as much as I love animals in general. I may like some better than others but I'm also not blinded as if I'm OK with one killing the other just because I think that species ranks higher in my book. They must be having a two for one sale on blinders around here lately.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Bully13 said:


> Why is it that dogs get preferential treatment to someone else's livestock? I love reading the posts "my boo boo bear just got her first bunny..yeah!!! I'm so happy". Or, "she just couldn't resist those fluffy squeeky little things". Every post I see makes it look like it was an accomplishment or* the dog just couldn't help themselves when they kill another animal. *Seriously!?! If a dog kills something it is ALWAYS the dogs fault and *it is ALWAYS a BAD THING!!!! *Unless that fluffy bunny was mauling the dog and he killed it to save his life there is no justification for it. Those animals your dogs are killing may mean as much to their owner as your dog does to you so what gives anyone the right to think it's justified. I love dogs just as much as I love animals in general. I may like some better than others but I'm also not blinded as if I'm OK with one killing the other just because I think that species ranks higher in my book. They must be having a two for one sale on blinders around here lately.


Dogs are predators, and some have been bred to hunt for hundreds or thousands of years. So... yea, in some cases they just can't fight those natural instincts and it's up to the owner to manage them.

In terms of it being always bad... I guess that might be a matter of opinion. I dislike hunting for sport but there are lots of species that are invasive and have excessive populations to the point that they're having a negative impact on the ecosystem. 

I would be sad if my dog killed a squirrel but I wouldn't be mad at the dog or think badly of them for it. They're just doing what they do. Circle of life and such.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

As far as the herding breed thing goes, I have to say that our Beardie had super low prey drive. I trusted her 100% with my free flight parakeet. They would interact and hang out together and she was also fine with the birds outside. They'd fly around and land right next to her and she wouldn't care. She would however, chase squirrels and chipmunks but was taught to do so to keep them away from the bird feeders. She also never ever nipped at us when we were kids. She would try to redirect us if we were running in opposite directions, but never once nipped me or my sister. Border Collie's and ACD's are higher drive and energy, but not all herding breeds have high prey drive. I think our beardie would have been perfectly fine with chickens.

My schnauzer/poodle on the other hand does seem to have a higher prey drive and I was nervous about him with our pet bird who loved dogs and had absolutely no fear (before he passed away this spring he'd always try to visit Charlie and preened his fur when he slept). However, regarding the proud terrier comment, I have to say he is incredibly tolerant with kids. He's very drawn to kids of all sizes.

These are just my personal experiences and I do believe that breed instinct only goes so far and then it comes down to the individual dog's personality as well as training.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Dogs are predators, and some have been bred to hunt for hundreds or thousands of years. So... yea, in some cases they just can't fight those natural instincts and it's up to the owner to manage them.
> 
> In terms of it being always bad... I guess that might be a matter of opinion. I dislike hunting for sport but there are lots of species that are invasive and have excessive populations to the point that they're having a negative impact on the ecosystem.
> 
> I would be sad if my dog killed a squirrel but I wouldn't be mad at the dog or think badly of them for it. They're just doing what they do. Circle of life and such.


^
This! 

Plus anyone posting about their dogs catching/killing another animal in any sort of positive manner are NOT talking about someone else's pet, they are talking about random wildlife. My dog has caught and killed a handful of mice and I'm certainly not shedding any tears over those mice. They weren't anyone's pet, they were pests in my house and at our training facility. 

The rabbit post you are likely referring to was about a wild rabbit in someones yard, again not someone's pet. Dogs are carnivorous predators, they can, do, and will kill and eat other animals given the chance. Certainly not all dogs but a decent proportion will. Hell there are plenty of dogs who are fine with the cats in their own house but would kill a random cat they encountered outside. Jubel goes crazy over the cats outside but I'm pretty sure I COULD introduce a cat into my home slowly and will proper training/conditioning and he'd peacefully co-exist with the cat. Not something I could try right now because I live with my brother who is allergic to cats though. 

It's not a black or white issue when it comes to a dog killing other animals, there is a huge grey area there. A large part of this is know your dog and don't set them up to fail. Assume your dog has a decent prey drive until proven otherwise.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

This thread is silly. This forum is not very pro-rescue dog, imo it is very well balanced with both rescue and breeder dogs. I see the same few posters really getting up in arms about people suggesting rescues... I think the issue may be more that certain people are anti-rescue... 

There is a third option too which is a breeder dog that is an adult. I got Summer this way at 4 years old. It is a great and often overlooked way to get a dog. Or older puppies that were kept back for showing and didn't pan out. 

I've had shelties, which are a herder though not as work oriented as some others. My last was a sports bred dog (like many relatives, littermates, mother, etc with masters + titles) and yes, he especially would nip and heel things. You can train it but it's kind of a management thing moreso. It's not aggressive, they are just hardwired to react to motion and typically will either jump up and nip at the face/clothes or nip at the heels. I know a lot of other herders of various breeds that behave the same way when people run or things move quickly in front of them. I've seen a grown woman nearly pulled over because an overexcited BC grabbed her clothes. Trey (my sports bred sheltie) got overly excited and essentially 'headed' my 3 yr old sister and bit her face. Not hard but it happened because she was moving and he overstimulated. Motion sensitivity is a real thing you have to manage and train around. You have to do a lot of impulse control games with dogs with high drive to control motion. With Trey we had to be aware of it for life. Even at 13 years old he'd still 'feel his oats' some and sneak a heel nip if you let him.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> This thread is silly. This forum is not very pro-rescue dog, imo it is very well balanced with both rescue and breeder dogs. I see the same few posters really getting up in arms about people suggesting rescues... I think the issue may be more that certain people are anti-rescue...
> 
> There is a third option too which is a breeder dog that is an adult. I got Summer this way at 4 years old. It is a great and often overlooked way to get a dog. Or older puppies that were kept back for showing and didn't pan out.
> 
> I've had shelties, which are a herder though not as work oriented as some others. My last was a sports bred dog (like many relatives, littermates, mother, etc with masters + titles) and yes, he especially would nip and heel things. You can train it but it's kind of a management thing moreso. It's not aggressive, they are just hardwired to react to motion and typically will either jump up and nip at the face/clothes or nip at the heels. I know a lot of other herders of various breeds that behave the same way when people run or things move quickly in front of them. I've seen a grown woman nearly pulled over because an overexcited BC grabbed her clothes. Trey (my sports bred sheltie) got overly excited and essentially 'headed' my 3 yr old sister and bit her face. Not hard but it happened because she was moving and he overstimulated. Motion sensitivity is a real thing you have to manage and train around. You have to do a lot of impulse control games with dogs with high drive to control motion. With Trey we had to be aware of it for life. Even at 13 years old he'd still 'feel his oats' some and sneak a heel nip if you let him.


I agree the thread has derailed and I'm sorry to the OP if they are still around. 


but this is my excuse...


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Bully13 said:


> Why is it that dogs get preferential treatment to someone else's livestock? I love reading the posts "my boo boo bear just got her first bunny..yeah!!! I'm so happy". Or, "she just couldn't resist those fluffy squeeky little things". Every post I see makes it look like it was an accomplishment or the dog just couldn't help themselves when they kill another animal. Seriously!?! If a dog kills something it is ALWAYS the dogs fault and it is ALWAYS a BAD THING!!!! Unless that fluffy bunny was mauling the dog and he killed it to save his life there is no justification for it. Those animals your dogs are killing may mean as much to their owner as your dog does to you so what gives anyone the right to think it's justified. I love dogs just as much as I love animals in general. I may like some better than others but I'm also not blinded as if I'm OK with one killing the other just because I think that species ranks higher in my book. They must be having a two for one sale on blinders around here lately.


Those are some really idealistic statements. I'm not going to be all QQ about my dog, who is most likely a mix of several dogs bred to kill vermin, killing a wild rabbit in our fenced-in back yard any more than I get upset when my cats kill a mouse. Instinct is a strong. He's a predator, a rabbit is prey and we are overrun with rabbits. It's not like he killed a baby panda. If I had some sort of pet rabbit, then I'd work my butt off to train my dog not to kill it, and I'd never leave the two together - but I don't, and I'm not going to go out and GET a rabbit to teach my dog not to go after rabbits. We have cats and he doesn't bother them except being a pest, and even still they are never left alone together in a situation where the cats couldn't get away from him if they wanted. Am I *happy* that my dog killed a rabbit? No, I wouldn't say that, and I don't encourage it... but I also know how ridiculously pleased he was with himself, and it will probably never happen again, so good on him for fulfilling his life dream at only two. If only I could be so lucky.

Is it ALWAYS a BAD THING when humans kill animals? We do it and we can rationalize and aren't walking balls of id.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Hambonez said:


> Those are some really idealistic statements. I'm not going to be all QQ about my dog, who is most likely a mix of several dogs bred to kill vermin, killing a wild rabbit in our fenced-in back yard any more than I get upset when my cats kill a mouse. Instinct is a strong. He's a predator, a rabbit is prey and we are overrun with rabbits. It's not like he killed a baby panda. If I had some sort of pet rabbit, then I'd work my butt off to train my dog not to kill it, and I'd never leave the two together - but I don't, and I'm not going to go out and GET a rabbit to teach my dog not to go after rabbits. We have cats and he doesn't bother them except being a pest, and even still they are never left alone together in a situation where the cats couldn't get away from him if they wanted. Am I *happy* that my dog killed a rabbit? No, I wouldn't say that, and I don't encourage it... but I also know how ridiculously pleased he was with himself, and it will probably never happen again, so good on him for fulfilling his life dream at only two. If only I could be so lucky.
> 
> Is it ALWAYS a BAD THING when humans kill animals? We do it and we can rationalize and aren't walking balls of id.


I have to agree. Dog killing some one else's farm animal=very bad thing. Where I live that will get your dog killed, most likely with a shot gun without you even knowing it happened. Dog killing your own farm animals, well that depends on how you feel about your dog and the farm animals. Some people are more lenient than others, ie. do you rely on those animals for your living or are they sort of pets/hobby. Did the dog just kill a couple of chicks but ignores the full grown hens, was it your fault ect? Some people will rehome or sell a dog that kills chickens assuming the dog is a good dog otherwise. Other people with shoot a dog for killing livestock. However a dog that kills vermin? Yeah I don't know anyone who gets upset about that. I can't imagine getting worked up about Remus catching a wild bird or squirrel other than worrying about him catching something from it. I don't think my neighbors are broken up about it, squirrels are a menace, they chew into your attic and have their babies in your rafters. Not the same thing at all.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Bully13 said:


> Why is it that dogs get preferential treatment to someone else's livestock? I love reading the posts "my boo boo bear just got her first bunny..yeah!!! I'm so happy". Or, "she just couldn't resist those fluffy squeeky little things". Every post I see makes it look like it was an accomplishment or the dog just couldn't help themselves when they kill another animal. Seriously!?! If a dog kills something it is ALWAYS the dogs fault and it is ALWAYS a BAD THING!!!! Unless that fluffy bunny was mauling the dog and he killed it to save his life there is no justification for it. Those animals your dogs are killing may mean as much to their owner as your dog does to you so what gives anyone the right to think it's justified. I love dogs just as much as I love animals in general. I may like some better than others but I'm also not blinded as if I'm OK with one killing the other just because I think that species ranks higher in my book. They must be having a two for one sale on blinders around here lately.


There is such a thing as the food chain. It just so happens that dogs are higher on the food chain than rabbits and other prey animals. Is it the lion's fault that he killed a gazelle? Is it a bad thing? 

Livestock, most of the time, are going to be killed anyway. They are walking hamburgers/drumsticks. They do not mean anything to their owners other than money/meat. Some people do get attached, but they're still going to kill that animal for meat someday anyway. So the dog's owner should pony up the cash. But it's not a good reason to kill the dog. Many people seems to anthropomorphize and take it personally, will say that a dog that kills livestock is a bad dog and needs to be killed, but that's thoroughly ridiculous---pure revenge. The vast majority of dogs in this country will never lay eyes on a live farm animal. Most of them would probably kill livestock if given the chance, because, yep, dogs are carnivorous predators. If the dog can't be safe around livestock and can't be contained, a home without livestock should be found.

People should contain their dogs so they do not destroy other people's property. But killing a dog because he ate his chicken before it was made into dog food? No. If the owners can't make arrangements to keep him they should find him a home without livestock. I'm sure revenge is all very satisfying but really.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Bully13 said:


> Why is it that dogs get preferential treatment to someone else's livestock? I love reading the posts "my boo boo bear just got her first bunny..yeah!!! I'm so happy". Or, "she just couldn't resist those fluffy squeeky little things". Every post I see makes it look like it was an accomplishment or the dog just couldn't help themselves when they kill another animal. Seriously!?! If a dog kills something it is ALWAYS the dogs fault and it is ALWAYS a BAD THING!!!! Unless that fluffy bunny was mauling the dog and he killed it to save his life there is no justification for it. Those animals your dogs are killing may mean as much to their owner as your dog does to you so what gives anyone the right to think it's justified. I love dogs just as much as I love animals in general. I may like some better than others but I'm also not blinded as if I'm OK with one killing the other just because I think that species ranks higher in my book. They must be having a two for one sale on blinders around here lately.


 Omg we have 2 full time LIVE STOCK GUARDIAN dogs for a reason. What do you think their job is? KILL THINGS thats what they are bred to do! 
Its one dog (the condo raised dog) that errs in killing poultry (which since they brood and hatch out chicks on their own, we are fairly overrun with chickens, so while its sad and a nuisance that she is drawn to hunting the chicks, as well as rodents and other small varmits, its not a deal breaker for us!)..
I contemplated raising BUNNIES TO KILL FOR DOG FOOD... 

we have alot of pasture... still might actually....

Sorry didnt mean to be off topic...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Bully13 said:


> Why is it that dogs get preferential treatment to someone else's livestock? I love reading the posts "my boo boo bear just got her first bunny..yeah!!! I'm so happy". Or, "she just couldn't resist those fluffy squeeky little things". Every post I see makes it look like it was an accomplishment or the dog just couldn't help themselves when they kill another animal. Seriously!?! If a dog kills something it is ALWAYS the dogs fault and it is ALWAYS a BAD THING!!!! Unless that fluffy bunny was mauling the dog and he killed it to save his life there is no justification for it. Those animals your dogs are killing may mean as much to their owner as your dog does to you so what gives anyone the right to think it's justified. I love dogs just as much as I love animals in general. I may like some better than others but I'm also not blinded as if I'm OK with one killing the other just because I think that species ranks higher in my book. They must be having a two for one sale on blinders around here lately.


I take it you don't live in the countryside : / rabbits and other small woodland animals (in the wild sense) are not someone else's lively hood, someone's financial investment. Comparing the two is like apples and oranges.


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> I live in the country and my family and I are building a hobby farm.
> 
> I have corgis, the Cardigan variety, and also have a 22 month old.
> 
> ...


Thank-you for your reply. My brother heavily recommended a corgi to us. They seem lovely but the herder instinct worries me. I anticipate in the future that we have sheep and goats at the farm but we don't now and in nyc they certainly wouldn't be given an opportunity to herd. I don't want my toddler to be at risk of that.


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## Darby (May 9, 2014)

Why does it matter where she gets a dog from all dogs need homes whether from a breeder or in a rescue. The way I look at it is if your looking to get a dog to have a dog go the rescue route but if you need a dog to do a job then the breeder route may be a better idea because of the breeds characteristics.

Now I haven't read this whole thread but if your looking for small animal friendly dogs I'd go the livestock guardian route(seen plenty of pyrenees in the area who are perfect with all kinds of animals large or small). However, if this is your first dog, most livestock guardians are difficult to train and if not handled properly can be aggressive to strangers and prone to wander.

Livestock guardians live with the animals and protect but they may not be the playful friendly pet kind because guarding is their job and they take it seriously.

I've seen plenty of her dogs(mostly aussie's) do quite well in a hobby farm environment but can be excitable and some are nippy.

My last suggestion would be a boxer. Though they technically were used for hunting I've seen a lot in both a farm environments(horse farm with some poultry) and also its a popular choice for families. My old babysitter has lots of little children all the time and her rescue Buster is great with them, always gentle, playful but careful. Boxers are very people oriented but can be defensive of their property.

For any of these dogs you could rescue or buy from a breeder, it doesn't matter.

But if you buy from a breeder I would try to find a good local one and ask that they assist you in the training process because they know their breed and also know their particular lineage. This will give you the best possible outcome and especially if its your first you need help.

If you decide to rescue, remember rescues have puppies too, and with an adult dog why not ask for a trial period to see if that dog is what you want?

Ask advice of people in your area with similar establishments for advice because they may have some good advice to give on the subject but take it with a grain of salt because some will be biased.

You shouldn't feel bad for wanting a puppy from a breeder as opposed to a rescue, if that's what you want then Go For IT. It's nobody's business but yours and shaming you into one option or the other isn't going to help anything.

Good luck on you first dog!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Knittingmami said:


> Thank-you for your reply. My brother heavily recommended a corgi to us. They seem lovely but the herder instinct worries me. I anticipate in the future that we have sheep and goats at the farm but we don't now and in nyc they certainly wouldn't be given an opportunity to herd. I don't want my toddler to be at risk of that.


Corgis (most of them anyway) aren't as hard core as say, aussies or BCs or ACDs but a breeder should be able to help you choose the right puppy for you.

though I would be reluctant, given your situation to recommend a puppy to you. But you could always look into corgi rescue


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

Chichan said:


> OP what are your top 4 dogs you are considering as of right now?


 
Top dogs considering now are: standard poodle, Portugese Water dog, American water spaniel, Spanish water dog, Soft coated wheaten terrier. We will be going with a puppy, with all due respect to the rescue camp. We recognize it's going to be a lot of work which is why we are trying to be diligent with our research


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I will recommend, as I did in the other thread, that you consider talking with a reputable breeder of your chosen breed to see if they have any older puppies or possibly young adults that were returned on contract or washed out as show prospects. Even a puppy as old as 3months will be much easier to house break and if a breeder was keeping the puppy as a show prospect the pup will be partially trained and socialized. Most breeders require contracts if you cannot keep your dog you will return him/her and I have a friend who adopted a lovely young adult Newfie from his breeder not long ago because his family could no longer afford his care after a financial hardship. The breeder was able to assess the dog and match them and she could not be happier with him. He was already house broken, used to children and small animals and half trained. It is something many people don't realize you can do but you can wind up with a really great dog past some of the harder parts of the puppy phase and still with the knowledge and support of the breeder.


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

Remaru said:


> I will recommend, as I did in the other thread, that you consider talking with a reputable breeder of your chosen breed to see if they have any older puppies or possibly young adults that were returned on contract or washed out as show prospects. Even a puppy as old as 3months will be much easier to house break and if a breeder was keeping the puppy as a show prospect the pup will be partially trained and socialized. Most breeders require contracts if you cannot keep your dog you will return him/her and I have a friend who adopted a lovely young adult Newfie from his breeder not long ago because his family could no longer afford his care after a financial hardship. The breeder was able to assess the dog and match them and she could not be happier with him. He was already house broken, used to children and small animals and half trained. It is something many people don't realize you can do but you can wind up with a really great dog past some of the harder parts of the puppy phase and still with the knowledge and support of the breeder.


Good suggestion, thks...will keep in mind


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

x2 what Remaru said on getting an older pup from breeder, also, out of those 4 the wheaten. You really dont want that soft poodley coat- the wheatens coat is soft but not as long as the poodley coats... (not with 2 small kids) and a farm- unless you are super wealthy and dont mind a personal relationship with a Groomer....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Eh, I think if you kept them clipped close enough (and you could learn to do it yourself), even a Poodley coat would be OK. But, yeah, that's one thing to consider.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

I really like everything about the standard poodle, really, except that darn coat.... but yeah you could keep em shaved down... I can do everything on my schnauzer except the feet ..... the feet can be tough and thats were they can some really tough to remove foxtails, burrs etc...


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> I really like everything about the standard poodle, really, except that darn coat.... but yeah you could keep em shaved down... I can do everything on my schnauzer except the feet ..... the feet can be tough and thats were they can some really tough to remove foxtails, burrs etc...


I had that same issue with my sheltie as a kid. Remus gets burrs but they are easier to get out and just generally less common. His fur is plush not long and silky like hers was. I used to spend close to an hour every few weeks trimming out her feet by hand with little scissors so she wouldn't get burrs or packed ice in the winter (not that we get a ton of snow here). It also kept the messy caked mud down. After I moved out my mom would take her to a groomer once every 2 or 3 months for a sanicut. There are youtube videos of full poodle grooming, I'm just not that brave yet. We have a little mini poodle mix who needs clipped.


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## WRayet (May 6, 2014)

> -we have 3 children aged 2-9 y/o.
> -we live 75% of the year in a small home in NYC with a tiny backyard (we have access to a nice large park with a nice doggie run)
> - we spend our summers and long breaks at our hobby farm- that has a few cattle, pigs, occasionally goats and sheep, and always free range chickens
> -we also have a few free range chickens in our small backyard in NYC, so a dog who can be trained to be nice to chickens is essential
> ...


One thing I fail to see mentioned is how much you're planning on walking the dog every day. Most dogs can manage having just a small yard if they're given enough exercise, though it's certainly not ideal for some breeds. But the exercise bit is really going to narrow it down. Do you see yourself going for a slow, leisurely walk for 30 minutes a day, or are you talking more of 1.5 hour jogs with hikes on the weekend and lots of playtime from the kids? The low shedding requirement really narrows down your choices, though, and I am definitely leaning toward recommending the Poodle. They are extremely intelligent and trainable, they're generally good with children, they're adaptable, they shed very little, and they come in different sizes. The only drawback is their coat. With low shedding dogs, you generally have to work more at grooming. I recommend keeping it trimmed short, as others have stated, for ease of maintenance. One thing you DO have to keep in mind: Poodles are very, very intelligent. You need to give them a way to exercise not only their bodies, but their minds. Otherwise they WILL get bored and they WILL become destructive. All breeds are like this to varying degrees, but when you get into extremely intelligent breeds like Border Collies, Poodles, Shelties, Papillons, etc, it's going to be more challenging to keep them occupied compared to, say, a Basset Hound. 
I am going to suggest you rethink this idea of getting a puppy. Puppies are very hard work, and combined with children is not the best idea. That puppy is going to nip your kids, mouth them, etc, and your kids could very easily hurt a small puppy without meaning to. The idea that an old dog can't learn new tricks is rubbish, and an older puppy/young adult dog doesn't necessarily have to come from some horrible home and might hate kids or some such. Plenty of responsible breeders rehome older pups/young adults for various reasons. Unless you can handle your current life plus going outside every hour or two (even at night) for potty breaks until the puppy can control his/her bladder, LOTS of training and LOTS of socialization (think 40 minutes-1 hour a day, broken up into lots of tiny different sections), supervising all, and I do mean all, puppy/child interactions, a lot of exercise, supervision of the dog at all times when in the yard, expenses of obedience classes (even if you're the best trainer ever, it's still a good idea to go to obedience classes because you will be in a controlled environment with other dogs around the same age of various breeds and sizes and different people and different smells), going to the vet much more frequently than you will when the dog is an adult, etc, I would recommend getting an older pup or an adult. I know puppies are adorable and the idea of having babies with other babies is cute, but it really not ideal. Also, raising a dog from puppyhood is not a guarantee of good behavior, and I want to stress that. As an example, bad interactions with your children can result in a dog that will fear bite or is aggressive toward children. You need to know that a breed being generally good with kids does not mean that a dog with bad experiences is going to be great with kids because of its breed. You will also need to puppy proof your home because puppies will chew on pretty much anything they can get their mouths on, which means you will need to either have a designated spot for the dog with an ex-pen, or you'll need to crack down on your kids about leaving bowls of food on an end table in the living room or crayons on the floor, etc.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If you want poodle information, just let me know. I'll be happy to share what I learned in my research as well as breeder and rescue resources.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I would also go poodle as well, I just don't feel right recommending a herding breed to this family with a farm, no dog experience handling and managing instinct (because you manage it, you don't train it out). I think a happy, active, fun loving poodle (from a reputable breeder) would be a good fit.

Also, when looking at a breeder, if you see the words "teacup, micro" or any variation of those RUN SCREAMING from the breeder as fast as you can. If anything, I would look for one who only breeds standards and mini's, there is so much corruption in the ones who breed the toys that I just don't know if I could recommend a reputable one, and they are super hard to find. Besides, a toy dog + 3 kids = not a good outcome.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

This: *(because you manage it, you don't train it out)*

that is for any breed when it comes to the animals that will fluster and run.. My friend got her SP as a pup so the pup grew into adolescence around the horses and was fine, and then needed constant supervision and instruction for a period of time during a growing stage around the horses and her SP is fine growing out of it and maturing into a great farm dog . so no matter what breed or individual dog, they will all need time spent to learn working around the animals, that the animals fluster, they run, and have clear boundaries set for each dog how to properly handle those situations.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> This: *(because you manage it, you don't train it out)*
> 
> that is for any breed when it comes to the animals that will fluster and run.. My friend got her SP as a pup so the pup grew into adolescence around the horses and was fine, and then needed constant supervision and instruction for a period of time during a growing stage around the horses and her SP is fine growing out of it and maturing into a great farm dog . so no matter what breed or individual dog, they will all need time spent to learn working around the animals, that the animals fluster, they run, and have clear boundaries set for each dog how to properly handle those situations.


We really need a LIKE button..

all good info around the poodles (I didnt catch that about needing a very lo shedding dog)....

One thing though, my giant schnauzer def out thought us on many things-- but I dont think a poodle will have the same drive and aggressiveness-- that makes a real difference in terms of ease of handling...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yep most of the working dogs and dogs with a high prey drive wouldn't be suitable because you have to micromanage them like crazy when they are puppies and teenagers (teenage stage is the worst part!!!) and you have to keep reminding them throughout their lives sometimes LOL. ESP with hard core working dogs like BCs, kelpies, ACDs, Mals (there is a reason they call them maliraptors LOL) and working line GSDs. You have to curb that OMG MUST WORK MUST DO SOMETHING MUST CONTROL EVERYTHING!!!!! instinct.

I didn't even think of a giant/standard schnauzer, again run for any breeders who make "hybrids" or breed anything "teacup or toy"


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## Knittingmami (Apr 23, 2014)

Thank-you to all who replied to my questions. We choose a standard poodle puppy. We went with a breeder listed on the AKC website, saw her facility, and spoke with prior buyers. We were really comfortable with what we saw. The vet examined her and thought she looked great. 
We chose the puppy that took her time coming over to greet us. She is a very calm and patient puppy. So far she is adjusting nicely with the kids, even my toddler who has found a new BFF with the puppy. She is also adjusting to the chickens. She looks at them with curiosity but doesn't approach them. We named her Machu Picchu after our favorite place one earth.
I'm sure I'll be visiting frequently as I have lots of questions as I move forward on training her and assuring a loving home for her.


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## WRayet (May 6, 2014)

That was fast! Were the parents health tested? I hope we get to see puppy pictures.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Knittingmami said:


> Thank-you to all who replied to my questions. We choose a standard poodle puppy. We went with a breeder listed on the AKC website, saw her facility, and spoke with prior buyers. We were really comfortable with what we saw. The vet examined her and thought she looked great.
> We chose the puppy that took her time coming over to greet us. She is a very calm and patient puppy. So far she is adjusting nicely with the kids, even my toddler who has found a new BFF with the puppy. She is also adjusting to the chickens. She looks at them with curiosity but doesn't approach them. We named her Machu Picchu after our favorite place one earth.
> I'm sure I'll be visiting frequently as I have lots of questions as I move forward on training her and assuring a loving home for her.


Awww yes we want pics... I think you made a fine decision..just be prepared for a 3rd toddler.... but thats why they make puppies so cute- so you are willing to put up with them...
(We met a pair of cats named Machu Picchu.... we adopted Machu- flew her home from Kenya actually... long story)...


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Pictures please!!! I would have loved a standard poodle but I was afraid it would be too big for my son to handle on his own. Dove has turned out to be just the right size (and I was a little worried she would be too small, funny how that works out LOL).


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## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

Poodle puppies are too cute!
Need pictures right now  !


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## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

I'd advise getting a Doberman or an American bully. Tough looking breeds, but will be loyal and protect your family as long as it is trained right. (EDIT) As you can see, I don't read every page of posts.


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