# So Much Diarrhea. This Is Not Good.



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Nova has Eosinophilic IBD. It flares up when she ingests something she is allergic to or cannot digest properly.

I am going to bring a stool sample in to the vet tomorrow morning just in case this is a parasite or something (she has never had any, though, and Marley's poops are perfect).

This started two weeks ago. Nova has been having TERRIBLE diarrhea. Sorry for the info, but it's watery and mucousy. No form at all. Lots of straining. When I saw this, I decided to put her on a bland diet (brown rice, pumpkin, and dry curd cottage cheese). This firmed stuff up pretty well. Still some mucous and a little softer than I'd like, but everything else stopped. I kept her on it for a while, and I've been trying to slowly switch back to raw for the past four days (a mbo-only turkey grind). It is apparently not happening. I can't seem to fully transition her back to her raw without full-blown diarrhea. 

I spoke to our vet last Monday, and he was not concerned at that point (but she was doing well on the bland diet).

I'm starting to really panic. I have yet to find a kibble that she can digest or that doesn't cause allergic reactions. If raw doesn't work for her anymore, I have no idea what to feed her! Nothing in her diet has changed recently either (other than the bland diet). 

Sorry, this is more of a panic-filled rant than anything else. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, though.

Edit: I can't spell.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Poor Nova. Hope she's not too miserable and gets well soon. Have you consulted with a veterinary nutritionist? Someone with specialized knowledge may be able to formulate an appropriate diet for her.

Sending good thoughts to both of you.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you! She's in good spirits. Still wants to play and has a good appetite.

I haven't yet, but that's definitely going to be the next step if I can't get this sorted out. Do you know if you need a referral to see a veterinary nutritionist?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't know. It may depend on who you see??? I know the vet nutrition group at the vet school near us requires a referral from your vet and (it sounds to me like) they provide their recommendations to your vet rather than directly to you.


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## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

pawsaddict said:


> Nova had Esoniphilloc IBD. It flares up when she ingests something she is allergic to or cannot digest properly.
> 
> I am going to bring a stool sample in to the vet tomorrow morning just in case this is a parasite or something (she has never had any, though, and Marley's poops are perfect).
> 
> ...


So she was doing well on the raw before? Have you fasted her to do a digestive reset? I think white rice might be better than brown, since the fiber in brown rice might make the diarrhea worse. Regular rice, not the fast cooking minute rice.


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## Tyler_X (Aug 30, 2014)

Not sure what is causing it but i hope your dog feels better  its okay to be worried, you love your dog!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Sending in a stool sample would be my first move. If that comes back clean, is it possible she's developed an allergy or intolerance to turkey? Especially if she was already unable to have chicken, it's possible. Sounds like something to discuss with your vet, but you might need to change to a different protein source. Unfortunately canine nutrition services are pretty limited here.

I'm assuming since you have a specific diagnosis that you've seen an internist, but if you haven't it might be worth doing, not because they necessarily are nutrition experts but just because they're more specialized and they've probably seen more cases of IBD and therefore may have seen something similar.

Hope you get it sorted out and that your pup feels better soon!


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you very much, everyone.

I will discuss the possibility of seeing a nutritionist with our vet as a next possible step if the fecal comes back clean and I am still unable to get her off he bland diet. Hopefully I will be able to find one if it is needed!

She was doing well on the raw before. She has been on it for a year or so now...longer, I think (sometimes we test a new kibble, but we always have come back to the raw). I rotate lots of meats (in an attempt to prevent a new allergy from forming). We do turkey, llama, elk, bison, beef, and occasionally rabbit. But she may very well have developed an allergy or an intolerance to the turkey (chicken and eggs don't work at all for her and duck is iffy at this point). So, in the meantime, I think I'll stick her back on the bland diet fully and then try to slowly transition her onto a new protein.

We had an intestinal biopsy done, which confirmed the IBD, but the surgery was done by our regular vet and then the sample was sent away to a lab. We didn't see a specialized internist, unless our regular vet has that credential and I am just unaware of it. I hope that's okay...

Edit: and yes, I did initally fast her for 12 hours. It's hard to fast her for very long because she bile vomits if she doesn't get to eat frequently enough


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## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

pawsaddict said:


> Thank you very much, everyone.
> 
> I will discuss the possibility of seeing a nutritionist with our vet as a next possible step if the fecal comes back clean and I am still unable to get her off he bland diet. Hopefully I will be able to find one if it is needed!
> 
> ...


Well that's interesting that she was doing well on raw before, and isn't now. Have you ever tried green tripe? I don't see it mentioned on this post but thought I'd mention it. I have a sensitive dog and try to feed it as meals every few weeks, and as treats several times per week.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I have given Shep a probiotic and a 'Kaopectate' for dogs from PetsMart, when he had diarrhea...


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Nova gets probiotics with her food every day (she's been getting this same brand since she was less than a year old). She does well (or did well) on it too. I just don't get it 

I have some raw green tripe (beef) in our freezer, but I haven't dug into it for a while...not sure why, to tell you the truth. Maybe we will get back into it later, but for now, I think I'm going to stick with something more novel and hope things improve (just in case beef is a problem too).

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is Kaopectate?

The clinics were closed yesterday, so I brought a stool sample in today. They should be getting back to me later in the day. I also made an appointment for her for Saturday, just in case they want to physically examine her or something. I can tell that she is starting to drop weight. I hate that she's going through this.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Just an update...stool sample came back totally normal.

Diarrhea is still occurring. Nova was prescribed some Metronidazole to help. The vet wants us to try the Acana Duck and Pear formula again (we tried it for a little bit last summer-ish when the new formula was just released. Her stools were good, but she lost some fur on her chest. I went back to raw at that point...but maybe the something in the environment was the culprit?) and see how that goes. Fingers crossed.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@pawaddict - Kaopectate is an over the counter Anti-Diarrhea Liquid composed of Kaolin and Pectin, which many of us over the age of ummm 30yo  were given when we had an upset stomach with diarrhea. You can buy the same for dogs at PetsMart. 

From your question, I guess like leeches and cod liver oil (and mercury thermometers), it's not used for kids anymore


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Have you tried Precise Naturals Foundation? It's just chicken/rice. They also have a very simple lamb/rice and they also have the chicken and lamb in grain free versions. 

Good company, good customer service, quality food. I would also feed a digestive enzyme, probiotic and something like Perfect Form from the honest kitchen or a capsule of slippery elm emptied onto her food. Small meals several times per day. 

Good luck 

ETA: Sometimes dogs with tummies like this just need a break, something super simple, digestive enzymes and probiotics, to kindof reset their system.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks for the info, hanksimon. I really appreciate it 

@fourdogs - unfortunately, Nova has some pretty bad allergies to chicken and lamb (those, plus eggs and sweet potatoes are the foods I feel very confident about her being allergic to). I also give her probiotics daily. They seem to agree with her (but who knows what's bugging her at this point). I tried digestive enzymes with her before (Marley gets them with every meal), but I think I stopped because they didn't seem to help (or possibly made things worse for her...can't really remember). All the food and supplement failures are getting hard to keep track of. I should start making a list, haha.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Oh wow! Those are tough allergies to deal with  Good luck with her poor belly


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## DGerry (Sep 12, 2014)

hanksimon said:


> @pawaddict - Kaopectate is an over the counter Anti-Diarrhea Liquid composed of Kaolin and Pectin, which many of us over the age of ummm 30yo  were given when we had an upset stomach with diarrhea. You can buy the same for dogs at PetsMart.


Just to clarify, Kaolin clay was at one point used in Kaopectate and other products like it. Anymore, generally speaking it's bismuth subsalicylate in the US...In Canada they may still use the clay, I believe. Always check the label so you know what you're getting, and discuss with your vet before trying any medications whether they're over the counter or not.

As for the diarrhea issues, we've gone through some similar stuff with Chester although it doesn't sound like his was quite this bad. We never got to the point of doing any intestinal biopsies because we were able to get it under control with Acana's LID line of foods(maybe, that still remains to be tested at some point).

If the Metronidazole helps, ask your vet about Tylosin. Tylosin is, from what I understand, safer to use over the long-term(I haven't found any instances of it causing problems of any kind, Metronidazole can cause neurological problems if the dose is too high or if it's used for an extended period of time but again I'm not a vet so don't take my word for it). They have similar effects(different methods of action); they're both antibiotic medications which also both have an anti-inflammatory effect. Tylosin completely solved Chester's issues and we had him on it for a 9 or 10 week period based on a couple of studies I found online regarding ARD(antibiotic responsive diarrhea). Since coming off of it and being switched to the Acana he's had the odd issue but no more emergency poops, and it seems to be progressively getting better. I'll qualify this all by saying that because we're basically just trying treatments and seeing what the outcome is, I don't know if any of this would apply to you and I can't say for sure if it was the Tylosin or the Acana or both or neither(he's 9.5 months, maybe he grew out of it?). I have read that many dogs with ARD end up needing to be on something like Tylosin more long-term but that they also often respond to a very low dose vs what you would typically use when using it as an antibiotic. Our next step with Chester was going to be just that(if he hadn't improved the way he has); trying the Tylosin again but at 1/3rd the normal dosage, trying to find the lowest effective dose.

I understand your frustration of trying to find a food that will work, we tried many things including different protein sources, grain free/grain inclusive, even RC's Gastro food didn't work. Whatever's working now, I just hope it continues to and I hope you can find a solution as well. I would suggest asking your vet about Tylosin, if they know about it or have used it, what they think about it etc. Obviously being on an antibiotic long-term is never the ideal solution but it may be the sort of thing where it helps you keep things stable for a month or two and gives your dogs insides some time to..."calm down" and start working properly again.

Good luck with your problems, and I hope both you and your dog feel better and find a solution soon.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Was your dog ever tested for TLI, cobalamin, and folate disease. http://www.battlab.com/tli.htm

I have seen dogs do an amazing recovery with these. http://www.enzymediane.com/

A pit bull who was nothing but skin and bones. Owners tried diet after diet. Dog had chronic diarrhea and the owners was at the end of the road. A co-worker brought this product and told the owner to give this a try and the results are so amazing. 

It is so hard to deal with a chronically sick dog. You find something and then for some reason the dog has diarrhea again. I feel for you and your dog.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

@fourdogs - Yeah, it's been a tough one. I almost cried at the vet yesterday after the receptionist told me that Nova has lost 2 pounds in three weeks. I could tell that she was losing weight, but hearing it nearly sent me over the edge. She is already a thin girl and can't afford to lose any weight.

@DGerry - Thank you for the clarification. I'm sorry that you and Chester are having a tough time as well, but I am glad the Tylosin has helped him. It's good to know that there is something safer out there for the long-term, should it ever come to that. I will definitely keep it in mind. Nova is only on the Metronidazole for 10 days. Our vet said that if there isn't pretty significant improvement in 3 days, we will try something else to get the diarrhea under control.

@luv mi pets - No, she has hasn't been specifically tested for any of those things. I don't know if it's because of the large presence of eosinophils in her intestines or the fact that she also has skin reactions when consuming certain foods, but no one has ever mentioned EPI to us before. It must be possible for dogs with EPI to also have allergies? I will keep this in mind as well. I have to call our vet in 3 days, so I'll ask him about it then. That's exactly what happens: we can find a food and everything seems to be going well (no skin reactions and good poops)...and then it all goes to, well, you know. 

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone. Your support and suggestions mean a lot to me. You all are helping to keep me sane, haha.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I think it would be wise to ask about getting an EPI test. Not all dogs that we have tested were skinny GSDs. One dog did test positive and we were all shocked because the dog only had soft pudding like stools. Once diagnosed the dog did so much better. 

I hope you get some answers for relief for your pet. It is sad to see when you know your pet does not feel well


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## DGerry (Sep 12, 2014)

pawsaddict said:


> @DGerry - Thank you for the clarification. I'm sorry that you and Chester are having a tough time as well, but I am glad the Tylosin has helped him. It's good to know that there is something safer out there for the long-term, should it ever come to that. I will definitely keep it in mind. Nova is only on the Metronidazole for 10 days. Our vet said that if there isn't pretty significant improvement in 3 days, we will try something else to get the diarrhea under control.


Yeah, when Chester was first put on Metronidazole it was near-instantaneous improvement. Basically before the second dose he would be having totally normal stools. If the Metronidazole doesn't help after a few days then it's likely that the Tylosin wouldn't either because as far as I know they help for the same reasons.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

@luv mi pets- Thank you. I hope we can get some answers too. I'm going to ask the vet about those tests when I call this week. It can't hurt to test a little blood. And if we got some answers, I would be ecstatic!

@DGerry- She has had two doses so far, and there has been some improvement. Not 100% yet, but I hope we will get there soon. Any improvement is better than nothing at this point.


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## DGerry (Sep 12, 2014)

I know exactly what you mean there, hah! Anymore there are times when I start to get a nervous look on my face because Chester has a *somewhat* soft poop, it's the kind of thing where if he had never had any issues I wouldn't think anything of it but now it's always in the back of my mind "Is this the start of another uncontrollable diarrhea episode?"

Fingers crossed that you can get everything figured out. I know it's difficult, especially when nothing you try seems to work.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I would if my dog was having issues with diarrhea do these steps.
stool check ( I know you said you did this so cross this off) I would do 3 stool checks from different days just to be sure. sometimes diagnosing whipworms can be hard because of where they live in the intestinal track https://www.idexx.com/corporate/news/press-releases/20140708.html https://www.idexx.com/files/small-a...oratories/whipworm-antigen-test-dx-update.pdf

repeat stool check but have it sent into a lab unless the clinic feels comfortable to check for these 
https://www.idexx.com/corporate/news/press-releases/20090116pr.html

Has any blood work been done on the dog? Does it show any abnormalities?

If diarrhea still is persistent, and everything else is showing negative, I would do an TLI test including the folate and the cobalamin. 

It is good that you did a biopsy of the intestines. You do not need to see a specialist for that. 

I would add apples (minus the seeds) like applesauce. I would not use the applesauce in the store unless I knew it was not loaded with sugar. Apples have pectin in them which helps with diarrhea in dogs and humans. A mashed banana too helps. When humans get diarrhea they are told to eat a BRAT diet. Bananas Rice Applesauce Toast This website explains why in case you or someone reading the posts does not know and what the food does http://www.livestrong.com/article/258348-foods-to-eat-to-stop-diarrhea/ I would not do toast but the rest you bet I would for my pet. I have done it. I used oatmeal instead of the toast.

I think the biggest thing is to keep a food diary. Also what you have tried and the results of the medicine. I know some dogs did/do good on the tylosin powder. I hope that you get some answers and your dog start feeling better.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Yeah, I am going to start doing a food diary. I just can't keep track of everything anymore. I should have started one much, much sooner, in retrospect.

Well, she loves apples and bananas so it won't be hard to get her to eat those. She HATES pills and the only thing that will get her to eat them is a little bit of manuka honey slathered on it.

Stools are the same since yesterday. Slight improvement, but still not good enough. 

She seems to be a little lethargic as well. She was so off at agility class on Saturday and then just slept the whole day away afterwards. Same thing yesterday. We met up with some of her doggie friends and she played for an hour...and then slept the rest of the day and night. Normally she is very pestery and go, go, go. Her appetite is really good, though.

I don't really know what all they test for in the fecal smear and float. So I will ask and compare to the link you posted, luv mi pets. 

She has had bloodwork before. I think we last got it done in the last 3-4 months. Everything was perfect, we were told.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

DGerry said:


> I know exactly what you mean there, hah! Anymore there are times when I start to get a nervous look on my face because Chester has a *somewhat* soft poop, it's the kind of thing where if he had never had any issues I wouldn't think anything of it but now it's always in the back of my mind "Is this the start of another uncontrollable diarrhea episode?"
> 
> Fingers crossed that you can get everything figured out. I know it's difficult, especially when nothing you try seems to work.


I know what you mean. My hubby and I even rate her poops and then joke that this is what our life has come too, haha. 

Thank you. I just want to get things figured out so that she can be back to her happy, vibrant self. It's a frustrating process.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok good. I am glad that the bloodwork was normal because of another disease called the "great imitator". It is called Addison's disease. Often missed because dogs do not come down with the same symptoms. Usually on bloodwork the electrolytes are off not all the time but sometimes. http://www.addisondogs.com/addisons/ I am giving you this site just so you can see about the disease. Sometimes owners just think the dog must of picked something up or ate something that did not agree with the dog. Often owners just can not put a finger on what is really wrong with their dog just coming in and saying the dog is not acting right. Test the dog and put dog on proper meds, whole different dog.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I've had Addison's in the back of my mind for a long time now. We haven't had he definitive test done, though (ACTH?). Our vet has always seemed pretty confident that we aren't dealing with Addison's, but I just don't know.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

That s odd because I was going to post something about the disease earlier. That is one disease I think I have seen where different breeds and sexes have tested positive for.

I have to tell you a story about a dog that tested positive for Addisons. A border collie came in with vague symptoms. The vet told the owner that she would like the dog to be tested for Addisons disease. The vet told the owner the price of the test. The owner screamed and ranted at the vet about all she cared about was draining the pocketbook of this ladies. This went on for some minutes, finally the vet said listen, I will pay for the test if your dog is negative and you pay for the test if it is positive. The owner agreed to that. Well, the dog did turn out to be positive and was put on the correct meds. This dog was only a year and half old! The owner could believe the difference in her dog after starting on the medicine. The owner sent the vet flowers and a card and has become one of this vets best client. It is so hard because so many disease act or could be another disease. Testing and ruling out seems to be the only way to find an answer.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you for sharing that story. Just goes to show that it can happen to any dog.

In your opinion, luv mi pets, do you think it's rude for a client to demand (nicely, or course) a test to be done...even if the vet thinks it's a waste of time? I don't want to seem pushy or upset my vet, so I tend to be a bit of a "whatever you think is best" kind of client. I don't know if that is holding everything up, though.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

pawsaddict said:


> Thank you for sharing that story. Just goes to show that it can happen to any dog.
> 
> In your opinion, luv mi pets, do you think it's rude for a client to demand (nicely, or course) a test to be done...even if the vet thinks it's a waste of time? I don't want to seem pushy or upset my vet, so I tend to be a bit of a "whatever you think is best" kind of client. I don't know if that is holding everything up, though.


I know you didn't direct it at me, but... having been in this position several times, IME, vets are more than willing to do a test requested by the owner if it is logical (even if it is testing for something improbable), and non-invasive like a blood draw, skin scraping, or needle aspirate. The vets I have dealt with have been far more hesitant about invasive diagnostics, such as internal biopsy or scoping, without a strong clinical indication and/or emergency.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> I know you didn't direct it at me, but... having been in this position several times, IME, vets are more than willing to do a test requested by the owner if it is logical (even if it is testing for something improbable), and non-invasive like a blood draw, skin scraping, or needle aspirate. The vets I have dealt with have been far more hesitant about invasive diagnostics, such as internal biopsy or scoping, without a strong clinical indication and/or emergency.


That makes sense. And I am glad that most vets are hesitant with more invasive procedures. I would totally want my vet to try and talk some sense into me if I were asking for an invasive and improbable test.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> I know you didn't direct it at me, but... having been in this position several times, IME, vets are more than willing to do a test requested by the owner if it is logical (even if it is testing for something improbable), and non-invasive like a blood draw, skin scraping, or needle aspirate. The vets I have dealt with have been far more hesitant about invasive diagnostics, such as internal biopsy or scoping, without a strong clinical indication and/or emergency.





> In your opinion, luv mi pets, do you think it's rude for a client to demand (nicely, or course) a test to be done...even if the vet thinks it's a waste of time? I don't want to seem pushy or upset my vet, so I tend to be a bit of a "whatever you think is best" kind of client. I don't know if that is holding everything up, though.


No most vets will not be hurt if a client suggested a test. Especially if you put it that it would ease your mind if the test was run. Sometimes we have to be our own advocate for our pets and even sometimes for ourselves or a loved one. I just went to my own Dr. and asked to have tests run. Glad I did. 

Lets just say that the test came back negative. What are you out of? Some money and relief that is not what it is. If the test comes back positive? At least some questions will be answered and treatment can be started.

A few years ago, I asked to have a lyme test done on me. It came back negative. Relieved but then had to focus on other areas. 

An Acth test is a blood draw and usually it requires drawing some blood, injecting the dog with an ACTH gel then 1 or 2 hours post injection another blood draw. Other test can be performed but most will do this one. Not invasive just time consuming for the owner. 

If this is on your mind, I would ask my vet to perform the test. Getting to the bottom and getting answers often involves doing a step by step procedure until answers are answered. Good luck


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> No most vets will not be hurt if a client suggested a test. Especially if you put it that it would ease your mind if the test was run. Sometimes we have to be our own advocate for our pets and even sometimes for ourselves or a loved one. I just went to my own Dr. and asked to have tests run. Glad I did.
> 
> Lets just say that the test came back negative. What are you out of? Some money and relief that is not what it is. If the test comes back positive? At least some questions will be answered and treatment can be started.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your reassurance. Her diarrhea hasn't improved all that much at this point, so our vet prescribed prednisone to take along with the metronidazole. If poops aren't back to 100% by Monday, he has a plan C to try. 

Either way, I think I will be asking for some extra testing to be done (Addison's and EPI). I would really like to get to the bottom of everything. 

Thank you again to everyone for all of your support and advice. I'll keep updating as we go through the process.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Just to let you know Addison's dogs are put on pred to help them with the disease. It can alter the ACTH test. It will be interesting to see if the pred does help. I know in colitis, pred is also given for the immune response and inflammation associated with the disease.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Just to let you know Addison's dogs are put on pred to help them with the disease. It can alter the ACTH test. It will be interesting to see if the pred does help. I know in colitis, pred is also given for the immune response and inflammation associated with the disease.


That's really good to know. I'll have to wait a bit then to do the test then. So far, we have had slight improvement on the pred. It's still not where it should be, that's for sure. But any improvement is good, in my books.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Just an update. The prednisone seemed to be slightly helping...and then things when back to square one in the course of a few hours. Vet said to start with the pancreatic enzymes (said if they work, then we have our answer about EPI without doing the test). He said he doesn't think we are dealing with a food allergy atm. I'm going to pick up the enzymes from the vet tomorrow morning (I work late tonight), and fingers crossed that they help.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Thanks so much for the update. Fingers and toes crossed for you and your dog


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Thanks so much for the update. Fingers and toes crossed for you and your dog


Thank you. I hope the enzyme therapy works. Would you do the actual EPI test instead? The vet made the test seem kind of unnecessary and like the enzyme supplementation would give the same result in the end, so I don't really know what to do about that.


Edit: and if I do decide to test, will the current enzyme supplementation mess up the results (like the pred with Addison's testing)?


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

The reason for the test is not only to check for EPI but most dogs with EPI have low vitamin B too. We usually give these dogs Vitamin B12 shots (known as Cobalamin) or a Vitamin B complex shot This why when we test for EPI we also run the Cobalamin and Folate because both of these are Vitamin B According to the Texas A&M the enzyme will not effect the test

http://vetmed.tamu.edu/gilab/service/assays/tli


Special Considerations
Administration of oral pancreatic extracts does not affect serum TLI concentrations in either normal dogs or cats with EPI, so withdrawal of enzyme supplementation prior to testing of dogs and cats that are already receiving supplementation is unnecessary.
Additionally, assays of serum cobalamin (vitamin B12) and folate are strongly recommended whenever serum TLI is assayed. Serum vitamin abnormalities are common in dogs and especially cats with EPI. Therapeutic supplementation may be essential before an optimal response to enzyme supplementation is obtained.

Please note about the enzymes not working to full effect till the Vitamin B is up for the enzymes to work.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you so much for all the information. It sounds to me like the TLI test (and Cobalamin and Folate tests) are pretty important. It just doesn't seem so cut and dry as to say "yep, enzymes aren't helping....it can't be EPI" or vice versa. The treatment is just so varied and dependent on so many variables. I would hate to rule something out when the treatment just needed to be adjusted.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Nothing to offer, but I've been following your saga. Sending good thoughts that you find an answer and easy solution.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you so much, cookieface. I really appreciate your kind words. 

This morning Nova had the best poop I've seen since this particularly nasty bout of diarrhea began. A #4 on the Purina Fecal Scoring system! I know that doesn't mean she necessarily has EPI, and I don't want to get too excited about it, but it's nice to see her getting some relief. I hope the improvement continues.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

pawsaddict said:


> This morning Nova had the best poop I've seen since this particularly nasty bout of diarrhea began. A #4 on the Purina Fecal Scoring system! I know that doesn't mean she necessarily has EPI, and I don't want to get too excited about it, but it's nice to see her getting some relief. I hope the improvement continues.


Yay! I am glad that so far so good. I don't know what to tell you about what you should do. You can ask your vet about giving your dog vitamin B . It is not metabolized by the liver like the Vitamins ADEK. With those vitamins you have to be careful about overloading Not so with vitamin B. Body will just eliminate it. 

You are a true dog owner. Only true dog owners get excited and have a good day when their dog have a good poo. I think about my dogs and when I am outside and see one go poo, I will walk over there and see if it looks okay. Exciting life I lead!

I hope you do get answers. It is always so nice to get answers instead of keep playing the guessing games.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Yay! I am glad that so far so good. I don't know what to tell you about what you should do. You can ask your vet about giving your dog vitamin B . It is not metabolized by the liver like the Vitamins ADEK. With those vitamins you have to be careful about overloading Not so with vitamin B. Body will just eliminate it.
> 
> You are a true dog owner. Only true dog owners get excited and have a good day when their dog have a good poo. I think about my dogs and when I am outside and see one go poo, I will walk over there and see if it looks okay. Exciting life I lead!
> 
> I hope you do get answers. It is always so nice to get answers instead of keep playing the guessing games.


Awe, thank you. Yep, we are big poop patrollers around here. My hubby has even texted me poop photos. Clearly, we lead very exciting lives too, haha.

We decided to do the tests. We go in on Monday morning. I feel so conflicted, though. Part of me actually wants it to be EPI, so that we will finally have an answer and can begin treating fully. The other part of me, after reading what a big commitment it is, hopes it's not. I guess we will see...


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Glad to hear about the good poop!



luv mi pets said:


> You are a true dog owner. Only true dog owners get excited and have a good day when their dog have a good poo. I think about my dogs and when I am outside and see one go poo, I will walk over there and see if it looks okay. Exciting life I lead!


I have a spreadsheet for each dog and record food, treats, poop consistency, comments (e.g., vomiting, class, grooming), and HW / flea & tick meds. :redface:


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

cookieface said:


> I have a spreadsheet for each dog and record food, treats, poop consistency, comments (e.g., vomiting, class, grooming), and HW / flea & tick meds. :redface:


That's a good idea! I just recently started to keep a journal for Nova, but I like the idea of a spreadsheet too...everything would be so neat (compared to my scribbles) and easy to find! Totally starting one tonight


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

pawsaddict said:


> That's a good idea! I just recently started to keep a journal for Nova, but I like the idea of a spreadsheet too...everything would be so neat (compared to my scribbles) and easy to find! Totally starting one tonight


I feel like less of a freak now.  Thanks.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

pawsaddict said:


> Awe, thank you. Yep, we are big poop patrollers around here. My hubby has even texted me poop photos. Clearly, we lead very exciting lives too, haha.
> 
> We decided to do the tests. We go in on Monday morning. I feel so conflicted, though. Part of me actually wants it to be EPI, so that we will finally have an answer and can begin treating fully. The other part of me, after reading what a big commitment it is, hopes it's not. I guess we will see...



I am kind of glad that you are doing the test. You need answers and your dog needs relief. It is so hard because so many disease have symptoms of other diseases. The only way to find out anything is to run a test. It is not like we can plug a dog into a computer and get a read out of whats wrong like we can do with our cars. But then even mechanics sometimes do not know whats wrong with the car. 

Cookieface- that is awesome job on the spreadsheet. I know with my own medical problems keeping a spreadsheet help get the answers to what was wrong and what foods triggered the symptoms. Good job and it helps when and if your pet gets sick. Do not listen to others and keep doing it


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Annnddd...we're back to diarrhea and straining all over the yard. Why?! Nothing has changed. I am so discouraged right now 

Edit: If she doesn't respond really well to the enzymes anymore, does that mean that EPI testing is useless? Is that a dead giveaway that she doesn't have EPI? Ahhhh, so many things running through my mind.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

that is bad I do not know what to tell you. Have you been keeping a food diary? I would do a very basic food diet for right now.. rice and only one protein source ( same source) and nothing else If not rice, oatmeal. I would not give any treats, bones or toys and do this for 1 week and see if your dog has any diarrhea. 

Have you done any food allergy testing?


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I have been keeping a diary. She hasn't been getting anything besides the kibble the vet wanted us to try. And it always has the enzymes on it now. Maybe she got into something in the yard? I have no idea. 

Poop was really good the next morning....and then Nova decided to eat a metal icing tip (the kind for cake decorating). Vommiting was induced. Tip didn't come out. Vet said to wait and see if it passes on it's own. Bah!!!! (I cried in the vet's office...so stressed out over all of this). So she had terrible diarrhea last night (and that was no surprise).

We haven't done food allergy testing. Every vet I have asked about it said they aren't very accurate/effective for food allergies (environmental - yes, food - no), so we haven't done it.

Still going to go into the vet's on Monday and do the test (and anything else he suggests).


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I feel for you and your dog. I agree with the food testing part. Some vets will do it and so I wanted to know if you had done it. Jean Dodd has one that seems like it might be worth a try. http://www.hemopet.org/hemolife-diagnostics/nutriscan-food-sensitivity-intolerance.html I will be honest do not know of anyone who has tried it. 


I would still be running the test. You need to start doing tests to start ruling out diseases to get answers. it sounds like you and your vet are working together to get answers and that is good. 

Nova why did you have to go and eat that tip? Now your mom and dad have to do more poo watching. Hope it passes!


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## amdeblaey (Jun 27, 2009)

I haven't read every single comment, but my dog has IBS-his flare ups are caused by anxiety/stress. Which is hard because even if I do a deep clean in the house, and I'm moving things around-he will probably have a flare up with diarrhea. He was on RAW-and even though he loved it, he was still having accidents. I finally let the vet give him a prescription diet. So he's on Royal Canin hypoallergenic something or other. It's the only thing that's worked so far. He still has flare ups, but not as bad. If he has flare ups, I'll add pumpkin to his food, coconut oil, and slippery elm (slippery elm is an anti inflammatory). It's hard because IBD/IBS isn't curable-you just manage it. Since Patton's flare ups are do to anxiety, I'm always planning ahead and making sure I don't do anything to extreme with him around. In the fall, the Army is moving us-and I have know idea how we will handle that.

Anyway-I hope you get some answers because I know how stressful it is.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I feel for you and your dog. I agree with the food testing part. Some vets will do it and so I wanted to know if you had done it. Jean Dodd has one that seems like it might be worth a try. http://www.hemopet.org/hemolife-diagnostics/nutriscan-food-sensitivity-intolerance.html I will be honest do not know of anyone who has tried it.
> 
> 
> I would still be running the test. You need to start doing tests to start ruling out diseases to get answers. it sounds like you and your vet are working together to get answers and that is good.
> ...


I do trust Jean Dodds (that's where her thyroid panel was sent...I was so happy about that!). $280 is a lot better than what we have been quoted for allergy testing at the vet as well. I guess my thoughts, at this point, though, are that I would rather put that money into tests for EPI or Addison's (or whatever else we need to test for). If all of the definitive tests come back and reveal nothing, then I will probably allergy test. The vet doesn't believe we are dealing with an allergy right now, because she hasn't really responded to any meds that are very good at helping with allergies (and that have worked with her in the past), but I suppose that he could be wrong.

Our regular vet is back now, so that is who we will be seeing tomorrow. He is wonderful. Really works with me on everything. 

My plan is to prep her tonight for the EPI tests (fasting), and hopefully we can still go through with it tomorrow morning.

Oh my gosh, I really hope it passes on it's own too. She doesn't do well with surgeries and usually gets a follow-up infection (despite proactive measures being taken). I don't want her to have to go through all of that on top of everything else :Cry:


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

amdeblaey said:


> I haven't read every single comment, but my dog has IBS-his flare ups are caused by anxiety/stress. Which is hard because even if I do a deep clean in the house, and I'm moving things around-he will probably have a flare up with diarrhea. He was on RAW-and even though he loved it, he was still having accidents. I finally let the vet give him a prescription diet. So he's on Royal Canin hypoallergenic something or other. It's the only thing that's worked so far. He still has flare ups, but not as bad. If he has flare ups, I'll add pumpkin to his food, coconut oil, and slippery elm (slippery elm is an anti inflammatory). It's hard because IBD/IBS isn't curable-you just manage it. Since Patton's flare ups are do to anxiety, I'm always planning ahead and making sure I don't do anything to extreme with him around. In the fall, the Army is moving us-and I have know idea how we will handle that.
> 
> Anyway-I hope you get some answers because I know how stressful it is.


Thank you for your reply. Yes, IBD and IBS are different, but they are equally as stressful and hard on everyone, I am sure. 

My hubby is in the Canadian Forces. We are lucky...haven't been posted yet. It's coming up within the next few years, though. It will be quite the adjustment (for me mostly, as I have never lived very far from home). I hope that Patton adjusts to the move okay :hug:


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Well, I took Nova in for the tests yesterday. We saw our regular vet, and I was pretty disappointed in our visit, actually.

He wasn't convinced that EPI should be considered. He said that if she had EPI it would have shown up on her intestinal biopsy. I don't know if that is true or not, but none of my research supports that statement. I could very well be wrong, though. He said that, with the biopsy, we pretty much ruled everything (other than IBD, which was confirmed) out. Then he went off to see another patient. 

A tech came in and took the sample. No one asked me if I had fasted Nova prior, so when our vet came back in, I told him that I did. He said that was good (he knew a fast was required), but he was going to run the test away. That made me upset. Had I not knew to fast her, that test would have been a waste of my time and money, and it very well could have given a false diagnosis and lead us in the totally wrong direction! 

After that, he basically told me that he didn't know what to say about what Nova is going through. That doesn't make me feel very hopeful. At least the test is done. One step at a time, I suppose.

Oh, and the icing tip had yet to emerge. The vet said to keep observing, as she is eating just fine and not vomitting at the moment. We aldo had another fecal run. It came back clean.

Edit: Nova has lost a total of 6 pounds now since this all began  I now have strangers commenting on how skinny she is.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Has your dog been giving Imodium ad? Sometimes that helps with the diarrhea. 

Sorry to hear about your experience. Are they going to be running the folate and cobalamin test also?


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

No, no Immodium. Just the metronidazole (which we have finished), the presnisone (which we are tapering off of), and the pancrease-v.

They said they would run the cobalamin and folate as well.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Results are back. She does not have EPI. Cobalamin and Folate are normal as well.

Vet has some Tylan waiting for us.

Is it bad that I am kind of dissappointed? I was so hoping for an answer so that effective treatment could be put in place.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Well I am glad that is negative. Yes disappointing because now you are like what could be wrong with my dog. In a way that is good she does not have that. Hoping the Tylan powder works for you. You can ask him about Immodium


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Yeah, I feel both relief and disappointment right now. I just want to get to the bottom of everything, but at least we have ruled those things out and we can move forward. I don't regret doing the test.

We are still going to use the enzymes for the time being, as they do seem to help the most thus far. I hope the tylan works too. I'll ask about Immodium as well. Thanks, @luv mi pets. You have been so helpful and supportive. I really, really appreciate it.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thank you for your post, @Cmill32. I'm sorry that you and your girl are going through something similar to Nova and I.

No, Nova has never been on Tylosin before. She had her first dose with dinner last night. This morning she had a pretty good poop (#3 on PFSS). Then she had a not so good poop about an hour later (#4-5).

From my readings, most of the time the diarrhea comes back after stopping treatment with Tylosin. It seems to work the best with dietary modification used in conjunction with it.

Bloodwork is a good idea for your girl if you haven't done it recently. Nova's has always been normal, but it is a good tool to rule things out (or in). The biopsy was good for us (we did it in conjuntion with another surgery that Nova required). Two birds one stone. It revealed a lot of eosinophils in her intestines, and confirmed what we expected (food allergies). Unfortunately, Eosinophilic IBD seems to be a tough one for us to manage lately (if this is indeed an IBD flare up).

We are lucky. The Tylosin we have is in tablet form. Nova only takes pills if they have some honey (manuka in particular) on them. I always feel like Mary Poppins when I give her her pills (a spoon full of sugar...lol).

Here is an article I have found informative:

http://www.vetmed.helsinki.fi/klel/tylosiini/tylosin.htm

Good luck! I hope the diarrhea does not return for Maple. Keep us posted


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## amdeblaey (Jun 27, 2009)

I've been following your posts since I responded. It is really frustrating when something comes back negative-it's like you can't find relief for your dog. We are off to the vet again this afternoon after a few bowl movements involving blood and mucus. I dropped of a stool sample this morning, but everything was fine. Every time he gets blood work-it's perfect.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

It is really frustating. I hope you can find a way to relieve Patton's anxiety. I don't know which is the lesser of two evils, IBD or IBS. They both just SUCK!


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## MelTruffles (Jan 27, 2015)

Hey, Pawsaddict! I honestly don't have any good advice for you at this point, but I really hope Nova gets better. ;_; I am so heartbroken listening to this struggle your having with your baby. I couldn't imagine what I would do if it were Truffles filling Nova's shoes. 

Please keep us updated! I am following this thread!

I was just wondering, are you thinking about getting a second opinion from another vet?


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Mel&Truffles said:


> Hey, Pawsaddict! I honestly don't have any good advice for you at this point, but I really hope Nova gets better. ;_; I am so heartbroken listening to this struggle your having with your baby. I couldn't imagine what I would do if it were Truffles filling Nova's shoes.
> 
> Please keep us updated! I am following this thread!
> 
> I was just wondering, are you thinking about getting a second opinion from another vet?


Thank you for your well wishes, Mel. They reallymean a lot.

Despite being let down sometimes by our current vet, I still feel he is a wonderful vet. He really cares about the girls. And I really appreciate that. He knows them very well at this point too, which I feel is a plus as well. We have seen a lot of vets, and he is one of the few who goes the extra mile most times for the girls. 

I have been thinking about the possibility of asking for a referral to a specialist, though, should things continue as they are. We have brought Nova to our local holistic clinic a couple times before. My hubby mentioned maybe bringing her back there to see what they have to say.

So far the Tylan hasn't yeilded any significant results. The best poop was the first one after we began. Now we are hovering around a #4 and #5, which was where the enzymes seemed to bring us. Hopefully it will improve more within the next few days.

EDIT: the vet wanted us to try the Acana Duck and Pear, so that's all that Nova has been having. I noticed that it seems to be high in fiber (6.5%). Does anyone think that may be causing some of the problem?


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I can't tell from the pics what kind of dog Nova is but if she is herding, don't do the immodium unless you know the MDR1 status.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

We think she is a mix of Labrador Retriever and German Shorthaired Pointer. Can't be 100% sure, though.

Edit: Thank you for the warning, @beardiedawg


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## timber- (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm sorry you are going through all this. I have a dog that also gets bouts of terrible diarrhea and to this day, still can't figure out what is causing it. He was also loosing an alarming amount of weight. I have been adding Canaddase digestive enzymes and it has helped a lot in getting his weight back up. I wonder is Nova has developed Crohns disease.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh poor Nova. The higher fiber is supposed to help with diarrhea The food looks like it was made for dogs that have digestive troubles


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

I really wish I had some help or suggestions, pawsaddict!! I sympathize with your struggles, though. When Bella had a bacterial infection a few years back, I was beside myself and felt horrible for her. Made worse by lack of sleep  (I kept a spreadsheet of her poop for a year after that...LOL)

I'm sending healing vibes to Nova and truly hope your vet gets this figured out. So frustrating! I'd ask the vet about Immodium...at least maybe to settle it down a little. Definitely not a long-term solution, though. 

It isn't possible that the probiotics have anything to do with it? You said she does better with it though, right? Just wondering what that one factor may be.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

@timber - thank you very much for your post. I'm so sorry that you and your dog have also been through something similar. I'm not too sure about Crohn's in dogs...I think I read that IBD is the doggie equivalent of Crohn's in people. I could totally be wrong about that. Something to definitely ask the vet. He will be calling later today to see how Nova is doing. I'm going to ask about the immodium then as well.

@luv mi pets - yeah, you're right....maybe I'm just grasping at straws now.

@BellaPup - Poor Bella! I'm so glad that she is feeling better now!!! Thank you for the healing vibes. We really appreciate them  She has been taking these probiotics for a long time now(we have been dealing with the diarrhea thing for SO long). They have never seemed to bother her. I did think they helped...but now I'm not so sure (I mean, we do still have the diarrhea right now). We use the Mercola HealthyPets brand because it doesn't really have anything in it (just probiotic strains and cellulose). Maybe I should try a different brand, though...

On a happier note, the icing tip came out on it's own!!! I have never been so happy to see poop in all my life! I hope that, now that that is out of her system, she might start to improve (I'm sure that floating around inside didn't help her tummy).


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Yeah for the silver tipped poop. Have you tried other probiotics. As a human with ulcerative colitis I will tell you that not all probiotics are are the same. Is that the digestive enzymes you are using too?


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

No, we are using Pancreas-V for digestive enzymes. Although she does not have EPI, the vet told us to keep up with the it for the time being. It does seem to have helped a bit. (We do have other digestive enzymes in the house, though...Marley gets a sprinkle of this with every meal: http://www.amazon.com/Mercola-Digestive-Enzymes-Pets-Powder/dp/B005MFL4OE)

This is the Probiotic I have been giving the girls for a long time now:
http://probiotics.mercola.com/probiotics-for-pets.html

But today, I went out and picked this one up for them:
http://novanimal.com/senior-pets-probiotics-advanced-age/#prettyPhoto

The Senior formula has more probiotics per scoop, which is why I went with that one versus their other formulations. Maybe it will work better for Nova.


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## MelTruffles (Jan 27, 2015)

Pawsaddict, how is Nova?


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

She is doing well. Her diarrhea seems to wax and wane, but it is better than it was when all this began. She has been hovering around a 3-5 on the poop scale lately....the #5's being less commom than they once were. She is almost off the prednisone, and almost done the Tylan as well. Hopefully things will continue to improve. I worry that everything will fall apart when the meds are all finished, but I will cross that bridge should I get to it.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm not sure where you are in the world, but this just popped up on my FB feed: Penn Vet Recruiting Dogs with Chronic Gastrointestinal Problems for New Clinical Trial


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Awe, man. I wish we could participate! We are in Alberta, Canada. I can't swing the 4 minimum trips to Pennsylvania


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> It is really frustating. I hope you can find a way to relieve Patton's anxiety. I don't know which is the lesser of two evils, IBD or IBS. They both just SUCK!


Poor Nova, I was hoping it actually WOULD be like, giardia or something because then its treatable and you can move on. Now, back to square one  I have nothing else to offer only that I am sorry you are going through this


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks, Owned. 

Today we had not so great poops (#5's). She strained this evening while going to the washroom. And then she regurgitated (I don't think it was vomiting) her dinner. She doesn't do that very often (I think she has only regurgitated once or twice before). She bile vomits a lot (with no regularity), though. *Sigh*

Talked to the vet this morning. He said to give her a couple days off of medications (she finished her Tylan this morning and will take her last Prednisone tomorrow evening). He is going to call me on Friday. If she regurgitates again before that, though, I will definitely be calling him sooner.

If I am not present on the forum for a few days, it's because I am most likely having a nervous breakdown. :boom:


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Just an update on my sweet Nova. I wanted to wait a little bit to make sure, but we FINALLY seem to have things under control. She is still eating nothing but Acana Duck and Pear and she is off all medications (except the Pancreas-V). I had to decrease the amount of enzymes I was giving her by half, and she is now having perfect poops! Consistently! She is pretty itchy right now, but I think that's more seasonal than food-related. Anyways, I just wanted to let everyone know that Nova is doing great. Thank you for all of your support!! It kept me sane.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

And a current picture, just because


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

pawsaddict said:


> Just an update on my sweet Nova. I wanted to wait a little bit to make sure, but we FINALLY seem to have things under control. She is still eating nothing but Acana Duck and Pear and she is off all medications (except the Pancreas-V). I had to decrease the amount of enzymes I was giving her by half, and she is now having perfect poops! Consistently! She is pretty itchy right now, but I think that's more seasonal than food-related. Anyways, I just wanted to let everyone know that Nova is doing great. Thank you for all of your support!! It kept me sane.


That's great news! Hope your pretty girl continues to do well.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

cookieface said:


> That's great news! Hope your pretty girl continues to do well.


Thank you! Me too!!!


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

YAY!!!! Glad to hear it!! Way to go, Nova - keep up the good work!! :clap2:


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

oh woww that is such great news.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks, guys! So far so good!!!


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

It's back 

And I think stress is the primary factor lately.

Last time the diarrhea started a little before SO left. Daycare started a little before SO left. Daycare and diarrhea continued until SO came home. Daycare decreased a lot and diarrhea decreased a lot (nearly perfect stools but still had the occasional bout of diarrhea).

Now SO is gone again. He left last Saturday and she also went to daycare that same day. Diarrhea started up Sunday and is still here  So I stopped the daycare and SO is gone for 30 more days. 

Calling the vet today, but what are some options for dogs that have stress diarrhea and have to undergo stressful events often (SO leaves for work a lot and for very long periods)? If it was daycare that possibly stressed her out, how long would those stress hormones stay elevated and bother her gut? Days? Weeks? Bah!!!

Edit: I have not changed anything diet-wise aside from adding slippery elm to her food to try and help the diarrhea...It's not helping.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> It's back
> 
> And I think stress is the primary factor lately.
> 
> ...


That's tough. I can relate to some extent. Jewel gets stress bowels during thunderstorms. They terrify her. If we have a few in a row then she is the same. Since it doesn't happen very often, it's not so much of a big deal. I'm sorry you guys are dealing with this. Hopefully you can find a solution.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks, d_ray. The vet suggested anti-anxiety medication, so we are going to look into that for her.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh I am so sad to hear about that. Maybe the meds will help. Stress is so hard to deal with. The littlest things can cause havoc on the nervous system. I will say these dogs do not do well in a big dog setting. I hope that you get to have a few more days of no diarrhea days.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Oh I am so sad to hear about that. Maybe the meds will help. Stress is so hard to deal with. The littlest things can cause havoc on the nervous system. I will say these dogs do not do well in a big dog setting. I hope that you get to have a few more days of no diarrhea days.


Thank you, LMP. I guess I'm just confused about the meds being used for this type of stress. I read that they work best when training is also done, but I don't even know how to train her to not be stressed when SO is away (if that's what it is). So it seems like the meds, if they worked, would be a life-long thing for her. Have you seen lots of success with these sorts of medications?

By "big dog setting", do you mean a busy daycare setting? I'm really leaning towards just not sending her back to daycare, since lately she won't willingly step foot into the building. I don't want to force her into something she is not comfortable with.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I meant as a doggie daycare. So many dogs running around really causes some dogs to be stressed out. Those dogs are just better being left at home and maybe having a dog walker come in and let them out for a potty break. With SO gone sometimes having a t-shirt that SO had worn prior to going away is helpful. Letting the dog sleep on it or lay near it is comforting to the pup. Dogs like your dog rely on routine. When the routine changes it can cause stress levels to go up and then you have the diarrhea again.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I meant as a doggie daycare. So many dogs running around really causes some dogs to be stressed out. Those dogs are just better being left at home and maybe having a dog walker come in and let them out for a potty break. With SO gone sometimes having a t-shirt that SO had worn prior to going away is helpful. Letting the dog sleep on it or lay near it is comforting to the pup. Dogs like your dog rely on routine.  When the routine changes it can cause stress levels to go up and then you have the diarrhea again.


That's really good advice. Next time SO, goes away I'm going to have him keep a few of his shirts "dirty" for her to snuggle up with.

That's what I think is really hard for her...the routine change. Everything is so predictable and happens like clockwork when SO is home and then he goes away and everything changes because it's just me.

Thanks for explaining further. We are going to hold off on daycare for a long while.

Have you ever heard of Zylkene for anxiety? I was thinking about asking our vet about it, rather than just starting off with the "harsher" anxiety medication.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

pawsaddict said:


> Have you ever heard of Zylkene for anxiety? I was thinking about asking our vet about it, rather than just starting off with the "harsher" anxiety medication.


Yes we use that on some dogs that are boarding. One dog gets anxious and gets diarrhea. It does seem to help without 'knocking' the dog out. I think it would be wise to talk to your vet about this medication. Also, getting a script for diazepam (valium) for those days that your dog is really stressed out. Like the first full day SO is gone. Your vet could prescribe a low dose just for those days that your dog is going to be really stressed. It is not good for the body and its organs to be on stress alert all the time. Healing can not start till the body has learned to be calm and that can be obtained from medicine or training. Get a DAP plug in and use that when SO is going.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Yes we use that on some dogs that are boarding. One dog gets anxious and gets diarrhea. It does seem to help without 'knocking' the dog out. I think it would be wise to talk to your vet about this medication. Also, getting a script for diazepam (valium) for those days that your dog is really stressed out. Like the first full day SO is gone. Your vet could prescribe a low dose just for those days that your dog is going to be really stressed. It is not good for the body and its organs to be on stress alert all the time. Healing can not start till the body has learned to be calm and that can be obtained from medicine or training. Get a DAP plug in and use that when SO is going.


Thank you so much for the advice. I really appreciate it. I'll definitely ask our vet about those medications. And we will be making some adjustments around the house for when SO goes away the next time.

I bought a DAP collar for her, but because of her hotspot, I haven't used it yet (said don't use if there are open sores). Hopefully that will help as well.

I'm just not sure how to even go about training her not to miss someone, you know? That's what worries me about traditional anxiety medication. It's recommended to be used in conjunction with behaviour mods so that the dog doesn't necessarily have to be on it for life. That being said, if that is what she needs, that's what we'll do. You're right. It's not healthy for the body to be on high alert all the time.


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## St. Quiteria (Mar 23, 2015)

Wishing the best for you and your doggie. Wishing you perseverance, and trusting you'll get an answer to this apparent mystery. 

I can sort of empathize, because my new dog has been having what appears to be digestion problems. In my dog's case the vet feels it may be an allergy to certain proteins.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

St. Quiteria said:


> Wishing the best for you and your doggie. Wishing you perseverance, and trusting you'll get an answer to this apparent mystery.
> 
> I can sort of empathize, because my new dog has been having what appears to be digestion problems. In my dog's case the vet feels it may be an allergy to certain proteins.


Thank you for your response. I really appreciate it  I hope that you can get things easily sorted out with your dog. Allergies can sure be a PITA.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Pawsaddict, I dont know if this will help you or not since every dog is different, but I ordered this for both of my dogs: www.chewy.com/Nupro‎ and I have seen a vast improvement in Lincoln's poop as well as his overall health.

Just another option that might help you.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Pawsaddict, I dont know if this will help you or not since every dog is different, but I ordered this for both of my dogs: www.chewy.com/Nupro‎ and I have seen a vast improvement in Lincoln's poop as well as his overall health.
> 
> Just another option that might help you.


Thanks for the info! I'll definitely look into it. Glad Lincoln's doing much better!!!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> Thanks for the info! I'll definitely look into it. Glad Lincoln's doing much better!!!


Yes, so far (knocks on wood) keeping him away from that water, and the addition of the supplement have made a world of difference! His poops are normal "logs" (LOL) now, with the occasional toothpaste squeezed out of a tube looking one every once and a while. I think it was a combo of the water, and and something he was missing iin his diet.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

So it's been a little while since I've posted, so I thought I would give an update...we decided, with our vet's approval, to try St. John's Wort with Nova (for anxiety). After a couple days of taking it, the diarrhea was gone and hasn't returned since  When SO comes back home, we are going to try and ween her off of it. Hopefully that will go well. So now I am fairly certain that we are dealing with food allergies/intolerances and anxiety with our Nova.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

So glad that you've finally found an answer!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

pawsaddict said:


> So it's been a little while since I've posted, so I thought I would give an update...we decided, with our vet's approval, to try St. John's Wort with Nova (for anxiety). After a couple days of taking it, the diarrhea was gone and hasn't returned since  When SO comes back home, we are going to try and ween her off of it. Hopefully that will go well. So now I am fairly certain that we are dealing with food allergies/intolerances and anxiety with our Nova.


Glad you figured it out!


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Thanks, guys! Me too!!! I really hope that the mystery of the runs is solved for good.

I have even been able to get Nova back on some raw!!


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