# Question about a particular food



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Hi all, we've been feeding Caeda "Science Diet Healthy Advantage™ Puppy Large Breed" food pretty much since a short while after we got her. We aren't looking to switch food, she seems very healthy and happy on it, and we very much want to stick with large breed puppy since the adult weight for a Swissy is generally at least 80lbs. Where we live its kind of difficult to get a variety of foods, it seems to be generic Wal-Mart brands or this, so a lot of the options out there are closed to us. Either way, just wondering what people know about this food, good and bad. I know some will say its horrible and others will say great stuff, but we're just curious about input in general so bring it on if anybody has any comments  Of course if we hear anything extreme that is negative we will consider it. 
Thanks!


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

Science diet is awful sorry.
First list of ingredents:
Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Liver Flavor, Dried Beet Pulp, Flaxseed, Dried Egg

You really want to feed your dog corn as the main part of her diet?

Have you looked into ordering online?


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

We are on so so food too Nutro Natural Chicken and Oatmeal sensitive stomach-- but at least it has no wheat/corn -- we try to supplement with cottage cheese, raw meat and bones, the occasional raw egg YOLK (raw egg white blocks the absorption of Vit E).. also fish if we are eating it....
I say if your pup is doing ok dont beat yourself up, but try adding fresh whole foods...
(BTW our breeder never used pup formula on her pups just this adult dry and raw meat..)


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

I may end up eating my words, but I'd bet not a single person on this forum will tell you that Science Diet is good food. It's highly advertised and promoted by vets because Science Diet gives funds to veterinary schools for different events. Vets are taught very little about dog nutrition and some are paid to sell Science Diet to their clients. But basically, feeding your dog Science Diet is like feeding your kids McDonald's every day - it has very low nutritional value.

Like katielou said, you don't want ANY of the first three ingredients as main ingredients in your dog's food. You want to be feeding a food that has a meat source as a main ingredient, preferably a human grade meat source such as 'chicken', 'deboned chicken', 'deboned salmon', etc. Corn is a filler and it's basically poop-fuel - your dog doesn't need it, nutritionally. Chicken by-products are slaughterhouse waste, like feet, heads and other unusable parts.

Here's a review about SD on a very good dog food review website: Science Diet Dry Puppy Food

It's simply awful. 

I'd suggest perusing that website for a 4 or 5 star food that is within your price range. Sticker shock will hit you with some of the foods, but there are some reasonably priced ones carried by your local Petco or Petsmart. Blue Buffalo is good food, as is Taste of the Wild. If you have a Costco near you, their Nature's Domain brand is good and probably cheaper than the Science Diet you're feeding now. 

One more thing - your large breed puppy doesn't necessarily need large breed puppy food. "Large breed" foods are often a marketing ploy, and people with VERY large breeds, like Great Danes, don't feed it at all, because the high amounts of some ingredients can cause joint problems in rapidly growling puppies. I think you're ok feeding it, because 80 lbs isn't actually that big, but it's something to keep in mind 

Please let us know if you have any more questions!


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

Bad.

Awful, actually.


Please look into higher quality dog foods - most that you're familiar with suck!

http://www.petfoodratings.net/dogtable.html


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Candydb said:


> I say if your pup is doing ok dont beat yourself up, but try adding fresh whole foods...


Exactly the plan, she is healthy, has lots of energy, teeth and coat look good, her digestion is great so I'm not overly worried. When I said 80lbs, that is the low end for a female. Many Swissies can easily get up to 140, not a Great Dane, but still a size where we need to worry about joint growth. We are absolutely going to look into adding some whole foods though. A lot of the foods, other than the one we are feeding have monstrous amounts of protein which we have been told is not great for her. 

I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh when people say "local Petco or Petsmart", sometimes I hate living in the boonies! The closest one is 3 hours away. We have considered ordering online, but the shipping costs seem to be a little prohibitive due to weight. If we found something we knew would be perfect we might be able to convince the pet store to start carrying it.....hmmm....thats a thought. 

Like I said, we're happy with how she is doing, not in a hurry to change foods. Appreciate the input and advice!
Thanks all!


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

Do you have any feed/tractor supply stores nearby? They can carry some high quality foods, and often for a very good price compared to pet stores.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> Do you have any feed/tractor supply stores nearby? They can carry some high quality foods, and often for a very good price compared to pet stores.


 Hmmm.....I'll have to check that out, I know there is at least one, but I've never heard that they carry dog food. Phone calls tomorrow it is! Although we are very happy with how healthy Caeda is at the moment, if we can find something as good or better that is less expensive that would be awesome. The vet isn't exactly cheap!


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> Exactly the plan, she is healthy, has lots of energy, teeth and coat look good, her digestion is great so I'm not overly worried. When I said 80lbs, that is the low end for a female. Many Swissies can easily get up to 140, not a Great Dane, but still a size where we need to worry about joint growth. We are absolutely going to look into adding some whole foods though. A lot of the foods, other than the one we are feeding have monstrous amounts of protein which we have been told is not great for her.
> 
> I'm sorry, I can't help but laugh when people say "local Petco or Petsmart", sometimes I hate living in the boonies! The closest one is 3 hours away. We have considered ordering online, but the shipping costs seem to be a little prohibitive due to weight. If we found something we knew would be perfect we might be able to convince the pet store to start carrying it.....hmmm....thats a thought.
> 
> ...


 http://petflow.com/ Check this site out - They're pretty reasonable on their prices, a tad higher then I can sometimes get food elsewhere. I recommend them to my adopters all the time that want to feed a high quality diet but can't afford what very limited choices there are locally. I order Aiyana's Ziwi Peak through them (wouldn't recommend that brand really for a big dog, it's great for my little girl when we're traveling and I can't feed raw like I normally do, but it'd be EXTREMELY price to feed a dog your size! Great food, but not a great price - I pay $24 for a 2.2 lb bag!) They often have free shipping, and even when they don't I think it's $4.99. Really, they're a great option to get good dog food when you're out in the middle of nowhere!


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

I know what you mean about having nothing close (however I would drive those three hours before I ever fed science diet )

Most feed stores I have ever seen carry dog food and most of them taste of the wild.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Vets are not paid to sell science diets but they get lots of promotional material and free food for staff. I myself got a 2 kg & 10 kg bags of the healthy advantage cat food(gave it to my bf at the time as he feeds sd). 

I know that companies like SD (hills) do a lot of research but with all their research, they still use corn and its derivatives often in the first 5 ingredients in their foods. Plus, this new line doesn't include canned foods , which are recommended for cats. The t/d food for felines is supposed to be fed as the sole diet. So if the company did actually use their research with.the animals' health in mind rather than their profit margin, then they would know something as basic as cats being obligate carnivores and requiring animal protein and they would know that dry food lacks moisture which cats need to derive from their food. And they would know, rather than rationalize, that corn is a common allergen. Yet no canned food for cats and foods with corn. 

Vets do not get much training in nutrition but from my reading their message boards, many vets are beginning to think outside the box. Many vets emphasize evidence-based foods so they are super loyal to science diet, medi-cal, purina and royal canin. Yet their research dollars are being spent on proving that animals will stay alive on ingredients that are not meant for their species. It is already known that cats and dogs are carnivores (although some may argue that dogs are omnivores but that is another thread) yet they focus their research on using corn gluten meal. Doesn't make sense to me. 

Sorry to veer a bit away from the topic but just letting you know what kind of company sd is. The other posters have given you good advice. Try to look for foods with meat in the first five ingredients and with no corn, wheat or soy. Keep in mind that any ingredients after salt in the ingredient list is minimal in their amounts. So if the food lists blueberries after salt, chances are that one or maybe two blueberries made it into the bag.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

When we were going through the several month long trial and error of trying to find a brand of dog food that our very sensitive pup could stomach, our vet suggested that we put her on Hill's Science Diet prescription formula. I (and my vet, who is a proponent of pre-packaged raw feeding) think it's crap food, but she did very well on it. I didn't want her on it long-term, however and we finally found Pinnacle and our pup has been doing great on it, knock on wood! 

In terms of not having any options close by--so long as your dog doesn't have any food allergies or sensitivities, there is no reason why you couldn't buy a better brand (Taste of the Wild, Instinct Raw, Canidae, etc.) off a website like 1800petmeds.com or even Amazon.com.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

www.nationalpetpharmacy.com also has $4.99 shipping (or free, depending). For any order. . .I ordered about 200 pounds of canned cat food and still only $4.99 shipping! I'm sure they lost money on that deal. Their prices seem to be about what it would cost locally.


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

Living out in the boonies, there are probably feed stores there, which carry dog food. You'd save a lot of money and have a much healthier dog with TOTW or Canidae, both of which are usually carried at most feed stores. I agree with Katielou, I'd drive 3 hours before I fed Science Diet. I cant say enough bad things about that food.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

She is a puppy, right?

Give her a few years on Science Diet, she won't be healthy anymore.

I would spend the extra money and order online before I'd ever ever ever let my dogs eat Science Diet. Or just home cook. Pretty much anything would be better than feeding them that.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I've looked over the reviews of Science Diet, especially the one that dmickle1 posted. My biggest disgust is that the price is higher than many other brands that do have real meats included as the first ingredient. I also don't like the preservatives, but I suppose that'll be in pretty much any kibble (and we don't want to feed raw). 
Honestly, the corn as a first ingredient doesn't bother me too much, the link with allergies is worrisome, but she has had no reactions to it whatsoever. Yes, it is just poop fuel and filler, but to fill that bottomless puppy-gut, filler is absolutely necessary. If it was all high-protein meat ingredients she would have a couple kibbles, get too much protein and still be hungry. 
She does seem like she is going to be on the small side for a swissy (like her mother), but we are still playing it cautious on giving her so much protein that she grows too rapidly. We don't want her joints getting stressed by that. One of the other dogs on the property obviously grew too fast (and too big, he's a little overweight), and he has a really hard time walking. That is a HUGE concern for us, we don't want her to have that problem!
Now that we've had the concept of the feed store presented to us (thanks all!), we're absolutely going to look at that. Some of the places that offer free shipping online we might consider, although everywhere else that says "free shipping" never seems to ship free to here. It is a consideration but absolutely not a preference. 
We are going to consider a different food, especially if it is higher quality for less money, since we've been pretty low on funds lately. Perhaps this weekend start checking out the feed stores, but we've got an almost full big bag of Science Diet, so aren't in a huge hurry. And, as I mentioned before, she seems absolutely completely healthy, and how she is doing on the diet is really (to me anyway) the most important part of any food decision. Even if a different food was $10/bag we wouldn't switch if she wouldn't do well on it. 
Thanks everybody....lots of "food for thought"


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

OP- I would suggest doing some research on dog nutrition. You don't want "poop fuel". Puppies can do so much better on a higher quality food. Not to mention, later in life, you want your new puppy to stay around as long as possible, don't you? So why feed her the equivalent of McDonalds every day?


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

Science diet is great food! Almost as good as Old Roy! (That's me joking btw)  I think it's pretty aweful. My old vet pushed it so much and it really bothered me that he pushed it and everyone said it was horrible so I tried to do some digging. Come to find out, hills sometimes pays for vet school for vets in exchange for them selling the food. Now, it makes sense to me why he pushed it so. The do all kinds of wheeling and dealing with vets-and like others have said, funding of different programs. I'm glad to see they are atempting to go to a cornfree line that recently came out but they are still a long way off the mark of what I would consider quality food. 

You have a costco nearby? Kirkland food is great. From what I have read you are kind of out of the way though? I think the suggestion of mail order is great! There are several sites that review foods:

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/
http://dogfoodchat.com/
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/

Just a few of them that can give you and idea of what you would like to look for.  Hope you find something that works!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Oh, one thing I meant to mention was that my vet didn't insist on it in any way, and didn't even mention the name. She said (and this is a rough quote) "The best advice I can give you is to make sure you feed her a large breed puppy formula. The pet store should have some, we have some and you might be able to find other places that have it". When we asked the vet tech at the front counter she mentioned they carried two kinds and recommended the "Advantage" one over the basic kind. 
I wouldn't call that pushing at all, so we certainly weren't coerced, pressured, guilted or otherwise into feeding Science Diet. We did try a small pack of Orijen once (when she was really little), and she didn't seem to like it much, plus it has a protein amount WAY higher than what we've been recommended by other swissy owners. 
Oh, and no Costco...well....3 hours away  If we found a food we really liked for sure that Costco carried we might consider doing the trip every now and then, but to hunt down foods for "trials" it isn't cost effective. Like I said, going to consider online and especially feed stores to see what we find. Not a huge hurry, she started a new big bag of food pretty recently and although some of you may find it offensive that we're going to at least finish that bag, we are going to.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> Oh, one thing I meant to mention was that my vet didn't insist on it in any way, and didn't even mention the name. She said (and this is a rough quote) "The best advice I can give you is to make sure you feed her a large breed puppy formula. The pet store should have some, we have some and you might be able to find other places that have it". When we asked the vet tech at the front counter she mentioned they carried two kinds and recommended the "Advantage" one over the basic kind.
> I wouldn't call that pushing at all, so we certainly weren't coerced, pressured, guilted or otherwise into feeding Science Diet. We did try a small pack of Orijen once (when she was really little), and she didn't seem to like it much, plus it has a protein amount WAY higher than what we've been recommended by other swissy owners.
> Oh, and no Costco...well....3 hours away  If we found a food we really liked for sure that Costco carried we might consider doing the trip every now and then, but to hunt down foods for "trials" it isn't cost effective. Like I said, going to consider online and especially feed stores to see what we find. Not a huge hurry, she started a new big bag of food pretty recently and although some of you may find it offensive that we're going to at least finish that bag, we are going to.


I don't think it's offensive that you're going to finish the bag. I'm glad you did some research and formed your own opinions about your dog's diet  

One thing to keep in mind is that it is really important for large breed puppies to have proper nutrition. One of my dad's 100 lb dogs has a joint deformity in her hip which causes her severe pain and arthritis. The vet predicts that it is a result of poor nutrition and development, as her some of her other bones are rather weak and poorly formed, too. She's 2 years old and we're facing euthanasia before she turns 3 because she isn't a surgical candidate and she can barely get up the stairs. All puppies need proper nutrition, but large breeds especially, because of all that weight they need to carry well into their lives!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

WOW! I am SO glad that so many of you mentioned feed stores! I went today. They didn't have TOTW though. They had Natural Choice, Acana, Horizon Complete and Orijen all in Large Breed puppy! They also had Go Natural, but no large breed puppy. Even the Orijen, which was the most expensive was about $15-20 cheaper than the Hills!!!!! 

They also had beautiful collars, and harnesses! We got her a new collar, and a fairly cheap harness. They also (no we're not considering this, but were surprised to see) had harnesses for dogs pulling! Some were regular webbing, others were heavy duty leather ones, some weren't just for competition pulling, they had regular walking harnesses that were REALLY impressive! These were pretty expensive, but not ludicrous.

Anyway, we're going to switch her to Orijen VERY slowly. We know she likes it, and it doesn't give her gut problems so that is a bonus, otherwise we would have done more research into the others.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> WOW! I am SO glad that so many of you mentioned feed stores! I went today. They didn't have TOTW though. They had Natural Choice, Acana, Horizon Complete and Orijen all in Large Breed puppy! They also had Go Natural, but no large breed puppy. Even the Orijen, which was the most expensive was about $15-20 cheaper than the Hills!!!!!
> 
> They also had beautiful collars, and harnesses! We got her a new collar, and a fairly cheap harness. They also (no we're not considering this, but were surprised to see) had harnesses for dogs pulling! Some were regular webbing, others were heavy duty leather ones, some weren't just for competition pulling, they had regular walking harnesses that were REALLY impressive! These were pretty expensive, but not ludicrous.
> 
> Anyway, we're going to switch her to Orijen VERY slowly. We know she likes it, and it doesn't give her gut problems so that is a bonus, otherwise we would have done more research into the others.


Yay! Orijen is great food and I'm glad the feed store worked out for you guys!


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## BeyondBlessed (Jan 25, 2011)

Orijen is cheaper than Hills? Wow, what planet? That may be worth the trip for me. 

j/k, a 2.5 Kg bag last me about three weeks because I also feed canned food (about 2 cans a week), and sometimes if I go to a different store I will get Before Grain which is cheaper. Where I get it though that 2.5 Kg bag is $18-22 depending on the variety, making it the most costly food I've ever seen. If I had a bigger dog there would be no way.


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

Greater Swiss said:


> WOW! I am SO glad that so many of you mentioned feed stores! I went today. They didn't have TOTW though. They had Natural Choice, Acana, Horizon Complete and Orijen all in Large Breed puppy! They also had Go Natural, but no large breed puppy. Even the Orijen, which was the most expensive was about $15-20 cheaper than the Hills!!!!!
> 
> They also had beautiful collars, and harnesses! We got her a new collar, and a fairly cheap harness. They also (no we're not considering this, but were surprised to see) had harnesses for dogs pulling! Some were regular webbing, others were heavy duty leather ones, some weren't just for competition pulling, they had regular walking harnesses that were REALLY impressive! These were pretty expensive, but not ludicrous.
> 
> Anyway, we're going to switch her to Orijen VERY slowly. We know she likes it, and it doesn't give her gut problems so that is a bonus, otherwise we would have done more research into the others.


Feedstores are those hidden jewels  I'm glad you found one!


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Greater Swiss said:


> Anyway, we're going to switch her to Orijen VERY slowly. We know she likes it, and it doesn't give her gut problems so that is a bonus, otherwise we would have done more research into the others.


That's great! And if it doesn't happen to agree with her you have plenty of other good options it seems! I didn't think I could do any better in my area than Purina One when I first got Sydney, but TSC opened up all new possibilities for us.  We do have a Petco but I couldn't afford things like Wellness or Blue Buffalo from there.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Feed stores are awesome . Mine gives me a "good customer" discount, too.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Greater Swiss said:


> WOW! I am SO glad that so many of you mentioned feed stores! I went today. They didn't have TOTW though. They had Natural Choice, Acana, Horizon Complete and Orijen all in Large Breed puppy! They also had Go Natural, but no large breed puppy. Even the Orijen, which was the most expensive was about $15-20 cheaper than the Hills!!!!!
> 
> They also had beautiful collars, and harnesses! We got her a new collar, and a fairly cheap harness. They also (no we're not considering this, but were surprised to see) had harnesses for dogs pulling! Some were regular webbing, others were heavy duty leather ones, some weren't just for competition pulling, they had regular walking harnesses that were REALLY impressive! These were pretty expensive, but not ludicrous.
> 
> Anyway, we're going to switch her to Orijen VERY slowly. We know she likes it, and it doesn't give her gut problems so that is a bonus, otherwise we would have done more research into the others.


wow I wish our feed stores carried those brands! Do you realize that you are going from one extreme with Science Diet to one of the highest rated foods out there, one with I believe the most meat in a kibble? This is great! Also, she will eat less of this than the SD so don't be worried


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

I'm glad the feed store worked out so well for you!


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## mom24doggies (Mar 25, 2011)

So glad you found a different food, as others are saying Science Diet is awful. Your pup may have been doing fine on it now, but give her a few yrs and her health would start going down. Dogs are carnivorous, they need their diet to be made of mostly meat. Science diet is mostly corn. One time I fed my dogs some whole corn...it came out the other end unchanged. I'm pretty sure the same thing happens to ground corn, too. It's nearly indigestible for dogs.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Be sure to check the phosphorus & calcium levels in the food--I believe that contributes most to bone growth (not the protein as people always say). I'm not sure what the % and ratio is supposed to be (some of the other threads on here might have them), but most people recommend going straight to adult food because puppy food always has calcium/phosphorus levels that are too high; even the large breed puppy ones.

If you're worried about protein levels, try Acana grainfree (it's made by Champion Petfoods, which also makes Orijen). It has lower protein % than Orijen. I believe it's in the 30s instead of something like 40% for Orijen. They have 4 flavours I think. Acana Grasslands (which is lamb), Acana Pacifica (fish), Acana Ranchlands (beef & bison), and Acana Prairie (chicken). I've fed Cadence both Orijen and Acana and he's done really well on both! 

Also, just FYI, do feed less of Orijen if that's what you decide to go with, because I find that if I follow what the bag says to feed, Cadence gets soft and runny poo because the food is so rich. The bag says to feed him 3/4 cup a day but he only gets 1/2 cup. Anything more than that and he gets soft poo, lol.

On another note, WOW! Can you imagine how much Science Diet must be making?!! I mean, putting so much crap into their food and then charging such exorbitant prices for it. Disgusting.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

lucidity said:


> Also, just FYI, do feed less of Orijen if that's what you decide to go with, because I find that if I follow what the bag says to feed, Cadence gets soft and runny poo because the food is so rich. The bag says to feed him 3/4 cup a day but he only gets 1/2 cup. Anything more than that and he gets soft poo, lol.
> 
> On another note, WOW! Can you imagine how much Science Diet must be making?!! I mean, putting so much crap into their food and then charging such exorbitant prices for it. Disgusting.


Yeah, she's already getting softer poo and she isn't even on half and half. The Orijen says to feed a little more than the SD does, but I think I'll keep the amounts the same for now. 

About the prices, I'm not too surprised up here....shipping costs a lot and the vet doesn't carry a large quantity, so no bulk discount. Probably a large part of the price difference, but yes, they do charge way too much considering the "quality" of the ingredients!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

The calcium levels in Orijen are very well suited for growing large breed puppies. Like Lucidity said, it is not the protein you need to be worried about for growth, it is the calcium levels. Too much protein can cause looser stool, but not accelerated growth. You should definitely be feeding less Orijen than SD, she will be getting more nutrients from the Orijen and won't need so much to break down. Too much and you'll find her having loose, runny stool.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Glad you found a great food for your pup! 

Also keep in mind that Orijen is rich and higher in calories than sd. So keep an eye on her body condition, if she starts to fill out, feed her less. You definitely don't want an overweight large breed puppy as it will increase the chances of joint problems. You probably already know that though. 

The ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio is 1:2.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Check your calories! According to http://www.petobesityprevention.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Dog_Dry_Foods.pdf Orijen Large Breed Puppy has 483 calories per cup and SD Large Breed Puppy has only 363 calories per cup! If this is so you need to feed 2.25 cups of Orijen if you are feeding 3 cups of SD.


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## McBee (Jul 1, 2011)

Glad to hear you switched to some good feed! Been feeding Orijen since day one and all three dogs at the house are on it.

It's worth it in the long run.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

So much for the Orijen.....maybe. She has stopped eating for the last day or so (yes, she has seen the vet, but that is a different post), the only kibble that I can get her to eat at all is the SD that has NOT touched Orijen. I think it is the smell of the Orijen transfers to the SD.....
Going to go back to 100% SD for a while (SD haters complain all you want... its better than her not eating at all!). Hopefully we can start mixing with Orijen again, but if she turns her nose up at it the next time it is in her food we'll know for sure its a no-go and the remainder of the big bag will be getting donated or something. Yes....we will probably try something else later, but we need her back to normal first!


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Bella's stomach is really sensitive. I couldn't feed her Blue Buffalo (Five star rated) - that started a whole slew of health problems for her. She was on Holistic Select for awhile as that fixed her up nicely but the price was crazy (6LB bag was 20$)! I'm now feeding her 4Health Puppy (It's rated four stars [the same rating as Holistic Select] by http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com. They don't have a large breed puppy, though- just puppy) at 18$ for an 18LB bag. And Bella tolerates it very well. We get it from Tractor Supply Co.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> So much for the Orijen.....maybe. She has stopped eating for the last day or so (yes, she has seen the vet, but that is a different post), the only kibble that I can get her to eat at all is the SD that has NOT touched Orijen. I think it is the smell of the Orijen transfers to the SD.....
> Going to go back to 100% SD for a while (SD haters complain all you want... its better than her not eating at all!). Hopefully we can start mixing with Orijen again, but if she turns her nose up at it the next time it is in her food we'll know for sure its a no-go and the remainder of the big bag will be getting donated or something. Yes....we will probably try something else later, but we need her back to normal first!


I am such the Devils Advocate-- that is precisely why we kept our pup on the so so dry -- Nutro Natural Choice Chicken/Oatmeal for sensitive stomachs-- she just got really sick even with us doing a 1:8 ratio and the diahrea did was too much for us in a condo (it was Wellness we were trying to switch her to, which our cat is on and my friend has been feeding for years)
-- and yes we supplement with raw bones, meat and innards and at 2 weeks shy of her 2nd birthday she is in excellent health-- just finished a 10 day camp trip carrying a 14 lb backpack -- so this has worked for us...
Also my boxers had a 3month experiment with TOTW that did not end well-- it might have been just bad luck/coincidence or a weird virus but 1 month apart they both came down with the exact same liver condition (not eating, massive diarrhea, off the charts high liver enzymes) that cost us thousands of dollars at the vet-- then they went back to Solid Gold Buffalo for the next 5 years and were fine-- my male died at age 12 and the female is going strong at 12 which is great for a Boxer I am told... well I will get off my pulpit....Just sharing my experience....


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## EPStone (Aug 28, 2011)

Healthy Advantage is a great food! And I'm not joking. I fed my kittens that food, and now that they are grown up they are on T/D and doing fantastic. My puppy is on that food as well and no complaints once so ever. 

I'm not sure where you all get your information about this food or any veterinary food for that matter. To clear some things up; corn IS an excellent source of carbohydrates for your dog, they are omnivores and the by-products are not bad for your dog! Besides, there are no regulations for pet store foods to ensure that they are infact telling you the truth about what is actually in the food. They can say whatever they want!! Try calling a company and getting the proof. Good luck. Any bag that doesn't have an AAFCO statement you should stay away from. And even if it does have one, if it doesn't say they have conducted feeding trials but it does say its been formulated for adult maintenance or something similar, your pet is the guinea pig. If "Taste of the wild" used human grade meat in it, you'd be paying a FORTUNE! Think about how much 1 steak is at the grocery store...its not economically possible for any of these companies to use what we would eat in these dog foods. The marketing ploy is not coming from SD it's coming from the "natural" food companies, there are preservatives in ALL dog food, no way around it unless you feed fresh meat daily/raw..but thats a whole other issue (ie. lack of proper vitamins, bacteria etc). Show me the proof that wheat/grain is bad for your dog?? There are no studies done to show its harmful, and again, a good source of carbohydrates. Feed what you want, but at least get the facts straight about all foods.


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

Where in the world did you get your information? Dogs are NOT omnivores, dogs are carnivores. Look it up on Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog Many dogs do very well on a prey model raw diet with NO carbs, that said other dogs do need some carbs in their diet. Most dogs can convert protein into energy, unlike humans who do need some carbs in our diets. Corn is one of the least digestible grains, especially if it's whole ground corn, and is one of the most common grain ingredients to cause allergies and digestive issues. If it's in the top of the ingredient list, more then likely they're trying to use it as a cheap protein! You get what you pay for - Look at the calorie content as well, many of the higher quality, higher end foods you feed MUCH less then grain ridden foods. I've been a vet tech and studied animal nutrition for the last 10 years. Science Diet is an OK food at best, it is NOT a food I'd ever recommend UNLESS you have an animal with a special medical condition Hills has a diet to address, even then it should be taken on a case by case basis. It's also well known in the training world diets high with grain contribute to behavioral problems. A high nutrient food with minimal or no "filler" ingredients is always best. Find any canine behaviorist that's actually STUDIED the dietary needs of dogs and most will not recommend Science Diet or similar foods. It's also a well proven fact that many cancers feed of carbs, and often what many vets that specialize in cancer treatment will do when a dog is diagnosed with cancer is take it off food that has grain or alot of carbs in it! I'm not saying ALL dogs should be on a grain free/carb free diet, but I am saying grains can be harmful, and can lead to problems, especially with skin and digestion. I know dogs that have done well for many years on Science Diet or even generic dog food, but does that mean it's the best? NO! And if you compare ingredients, Science Diet isn't much better then Dog Chow or several other much cheaper brands!



EPStone said:


> Healthy Advantage is a great food! And I'm not joking. I fed my kittens that food, and now that they are grown up they are on T/D and doing fantastic. My puppy is on that food as well and no complaints once so ever.
> 
> I'm not sure where you all get your information about this food or any veterinary food for that matter. To clear some things up; corn IS an excellent source of carbohydrates for your dog, they are omnivores and the by-products are not bad for your dog! Besides, there are no regulations for pet store foods to ensure that they are infact telling you the truth about what is actually in the food. They can say whatever they want!! Try calling a company and getting the proof. Good luck. Any bag that doesn't have an AAFCO statement you should stay away from. And even if it does have one, if it doesn't say they have conducted feeding trials but it does say its been formulated for adult maintenance or something similar, your pet is the guinea pig. If "Taste of the wild" used human grade meat in it, you'd be paying a FORTUNE! Think about how much 1 steak is at the grocery store...its not economically possible for any of these companies to use what we would eat in these dog foods. The marketing ploy is not coming from SD it's coming from the "natural" food companies, there are preservatives in ALL dog food, no way around it unless you feed fresh meat daily/raw..but thats a whole other issue (ie. lack of proper vitamins, bacteria etc). Show me the proof that wheat/grain is bad for your dog?? There are no studies done to show its harmful, and again, a good source of carbohydrates. Feed what you want, but at least get the facts straight about all foods.


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## EPStone (Aug 28, 2011)

Wikipedia is an extremely unreliable source. Most scientific papers found in Universitys will tell you that dogs are omnivores. 

You need 55% starch to hold the kibbles together. 

I am very happy with my choices of food. I never said SD foods are the best. 

Everything causes cancer these days. 

Alot of carbs ( in grains ) don't lead to behavioural issues, it leads to more energy.

What food do you recommend?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Ok, I'm no expert (in case it wasn't already painfully obvious lol), but regarding the two posts above. 

Carbs for dogs....hmmm, not my priority, I personally don't think they are the worst thing for a dog, but should not be priority for a dog's diet (Not about to rave about high carb content in dog or people food!). What I think is a higher priority is the protein (and is it the calcium phosphorus ratio...maybe). I didn't find SD that bad, Caeda was doing well on it but I started looking at the ingredients and reading a bunch of information. I started thinking about the protein in particular because of Caeda being a large breed. I understand that too much protein is bad for a growing large breed due to the possibility of growing too fast and creating joint problems (I believe I am witnessing the outcome of this in a neighbor's dog and want to prevent it!!). I'm not well versed in the details of epiphesial formation in puppies, but it makes sense that too much protein could accelerate things to a detrimental degree. 

The protein level in SD was reasonable for a large breed puppy BUT I looked at the source of the protein, not the highest quality and not high on the list! THIS is the reason I truly started questioning feeding SD, not because of the people who gave me the impression they thought I was mistreating my puppy by feeding it to her, or because it is bad....but because there is BETTER. I wanted quality protein sources like meat, not veggies. Orijen proved too rich for Caeda's apparently delicate guts, plus I did find that whether the vet was right or not, her points are worth consideration. Carnivore or omnivore....I personally lean towards carnivore perhaps but not purely. There is obviously the ability (if not a minor necessity) to digest vegetables and grains.

Just think of all of the diet theories for people! There have been the paleo-diets for people, the Atkins, etc. None have been "proven" to be perfect, and I'm sure more research goes into human diets than into dogs. We can just try to avoid jumping on whatever current bandwagon there is while taking all information into account to make an educated decision, whether it is for people or puppies. 

We've been weaning her onto ACANA, and are now on 50/50 mix with no problems. I'm reasonably satisfied with the nutritional content and with her response to it and the nutritional value.....so ACANA it is unless something else odd happens (or we trace the vaginosis to an allergen that is common to Orijen and ACANA).


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

GREAT post IGMomma!!




EPStone said:


> Wikipedia is an extremely unreliable source. Most scientific papers found in Universitys will tell you that dogs are omnivores.
> 
> You need 55% starch to hold the kibbles together.
> 
> ...


Im sorry(well no Im not) but are you FREAKING serious!?!
Wikipedia can AND IS edited by ANYONE and EVERYONE!!
Corn, grains, and starches are NOT good for dogs or cats....BOTH of which are CARNIVORES!!


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## igmomma (Jul 24, 2011)

EPStone said:


> Wikipedia is an extremely unreliable source. Most scientific papers found in Universitys will tell you that dogs are omnivores.
> 
> You need 55% starch to hold the kibbles together.
> 
> ...


I don't recommend kibble honestly. I recommend a species appropriate raw diet if possible, that said if kibble is your preferred method, I recommend taking your dog into account. I don't think any diet period is suitable for every dog, each dog is individual. That's what I like about raw or home prepared diets, they are alot more work, but so much easier to tailor to the individual dog. Generally I say stay away from kibbles with high grain content - look for food with meat an meat meals (which is generally meat with water content removed) high on the ingredient list. 

As for dogs - look at their teeth, humans are omnivores, we have flat teeth for grinding plant material. Dogs don't, because they are carnivores! That doesn't mean they can't handle some grain and plant material in their diet, it means they can and do thrive in a mostly meat diet. I also find most dogs do better with more moisture the kibble can provide. It's no coincidence that many cats and dogs with health problems do alot better when on a canned, home prepared, or raw diet - water is one of the most important things! I stopped feeding kibble years ago, my dogs have had fewer dental problems, less trips to the vet, maintained good weights easier, and I'd never turn back! That said kibble is convient and I'm not saying everyone should throw away their kibble, but consider all sides! I find vets are NOT the best source for diet information - much of their education is paid for by Hills, Iams, and other companies that make the diets vets sell! As a trained vet tech I know very well what goes into training for both vets and techs as purina and science diet get crammed into you!


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

I don't think dogs are omnivores, but I do believe they are more opportunistic feeders than _ strict _ carnivores. Dogs are capable of digesting and deriving nutrients from (some!) plant sources. That said I do believe the primary ingredients in any dog diet should be meat. I don't have a problem with some grains in dog food, provided that they are not the main ingredient, and that they are quality grains. Corn is not easily digested and provides little nutritional value. I actually prefer digestible, nutritious whole grains like brown rice and oatmeal to the white potatoes used to bind grain-free kibble.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

igmomma said:


> As for dogs - look at their teeth, humans are omnivores, we have flat teeth for grinding plant material. Dogs don't, because they are carnivores! That doesn't mean they can't handle some grain and plant material in their diet, it means they can and do thrive in a mostly meat diet. I also find most dogs do better with more moisture the kibble can provide. It's no coincidence that many cats and dogs with health problems do alot better when on a canned, home prepared, or raw diet - water is one of the most important things! I stopped feeding kibble years ago, my dogs have had fewer dental problems, less trips to the vet, maintained good weights easier, and I'd never turn back! That said kibble is convient and I'm not saying everyone should throw away their kibble, but consider all sides! I find vets are NOT the best source for diet information - much of their education is paid for by Hills, Iams, and other companies that make the diets vets sell! As a trained vet tech I know very well what goes into training for both vets and techs as purina and science diet get crammed into you!


About the teeth....yes, dogs are obviously from carnivorous roots, no question, and I do agree that they are primarily carnivores although Porphyria has a great point about being opportunistic! If it was a case of dogs teeth evolving to something less carnivorous looking (if one were to assume they were omnivores), they would only do so with the particular circumstances where the carnivorous teeth were not advantageous or necessary. Not trying to criticize your assertion of dogs being carnivorous, just pointing out that there are other reasons for the teeth.....

Raw feeding....I considered it seriously, and thought about our lifestyle and time/money restrictions. Without going into detail, I'll just say we're better off with a good kibble. Once feeding is completely onto ACANA we'll probably look at supplementing with some raw occasionally but not as her primary food. 

Regarding the vets pushing SD/Hills products I have to point out again no vet that I have seen at our clinic has even suggested it! The closest was, "any large breed puppy food is a good start, we have some, the pet store and a few other places too". The tech, when I asked about their puppy food said "Oh, we have the Advantage brand as well....its better than the other one". The second vet, the one that is against Orijen said she agreed it was a good idea to switch from SD, but not to Orijen....so at least as far as anybody commenting on vets pushing SD.....please exclude ours, they have been completely unbiased and helpful. No, they are not expert nutritionists, but if a vet says she has had more dogs come in with reactions to Orijen (and she isn't pushing an SD agenda) than any other food, I think it is worth considering. This clinic actually spends just as much time on horses and cows as they do on dogs....pushing dog food I don't think is that important to them....


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

I think you have made a good decision Greater Swiss. You have to feed what you are comfortable with, can afford, and have time for. Nutrition is always going to create a debate so that's why you are getting a lot of opinions. Which is a good thing as it helps you make a decision. 

There are strong opinions about SD and other rx foods. I have them too but I realize there.is a place for prescription foods. And yes, vets are for the most part trained on the basics the nutrition and they learn about the rx foods based on their research. But that is the point right. I would hope they would know something about the rx foods! However, I wish that vets would learn more about the foods on the market so they could truthfully make a balanced recommendation. I am talking about maintenance foods here. But vets are often asked to make a recommendation or try to upsell by pushing SD, Royal Canin, or Iams. One vet where I work told a client that SD has the same stuff as Beneful (the client was feeding beneful)...not really a glowing advertisement for SD is it? I don't know maybe they are the same (except for the artificial colouring)! At least SD doesn't have that. In reading some of the message boards between vets, I can see some vets are coming around. Every vet is different, just as every dog owner is different.


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