# Chih - Crate / Isolation Training



## Tribalone (Aug 13, 2006)

We live in a 2 bedroom condo and have been putting him in the kitchen during the night...... We have been tryin to do this during the day too - cause we wont always be home, all the time - His food / puppy pad / and bed are in with him on a linoleum floor


He cries ALOT - we have read to ignore him


My question is how long of him being quite do we then show him attention


like if he falls asleep do we give him the freedom to come out when he wakes up?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

A good indicator of when to show him affection would be to walk by the kitchen without looking at him, and if he stays quiet, give him a pat, take him outside to eliminate, and then give him some freedom to romp around with your observation. If he awakens from a nap, and he's quiet, take him outside first. Try not to rely on the puppy pad if you want him to eventually eliminate outside. And of course, give him plenty of praise when he does his business outside.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Tribalone said:


> We live in a 2 bedroom condo and have been putting him in the kitchen during the night...... We have been tryin to do this during the day too - cause we wont always be home, all the time - His food / puppy pad / and bed are in with him on a linoleum floor
> 
> 
> He cries ALOT - we have read to ignore him
> ...


Hello, I would love to give you some feedback, if I may. 

There are several reasons why "crate training" is useful with dogs. First, it allows you to have some control over their activity - where they go, where they sleep etc... Second, it is a wonderful housetraining tool (this requires further explanation) Third, it helps teach the dog to calm himself down and that he/she is okay when alone. 

Putting the dog in a crate works to calm a dog for two reasons. One, dogs do have a "denning" instinct, which is triggered when they are in a small cozy space. Secondly - and this is the key to effective crate use - it can function as a sensory deprivation environment. When they are secluded - removed from stimulation- they become less reactive. Essentially, they calm down! It's sort of like falling asleep in the car - we get bored with nothing to do, or when we've listened to all our cds - so we take a nap! 

Here's why many people have a problem with crate training: They fail to effectively remove the dog from the stimulating environment. 

Believe it or not, the sense of sight plays a big role. Put a dog in a crate where he can still SEE his people or activity and forget it. He'll go crazy trying to get to you. You need to remove the stimulation! Here's what I do - cover the crate with a sheet, or put it in a space where he absolutely cannot see anything. Be careful about air-flow and temperature. A light sheet is perfect or a small cool room. 

If the dog is still reactive once you've done this, try to remove more sensory stimulation. Work on noise next. Put on a noisy fan that will drown out background noise. If he cant see or hear anything, there's not much left to do but settle down. 

As for your question about "when to show him attention" - Forget that. Timing that correctly is VERY difficult, and it is really not that helpful in this situation. Lack of stimulation is the key to crate training. What is good about the concept of paying attention to him when he is good is that it helps YOU understand the idea of action and consequences. But it's not an easy or necessary method for crate training. 

The crate should be used very specifically. At night for sleeping and during the day ONLY for puppies or toy breeds. The guide for puppies (all breeds) is as follows - at first, expect to take the dog out to the bathroom once every ____ hours. Fill in the blank with however many months old the dog is (up to 9 months)

Toy breed adults can make it about 10 hours max. Don't use a crate with large breeds during the day, unless you are literally running the dog hard four hours each day. Large breed dogs were not built to stay all day and all night in a crate. 

Good luck and let me know if you have questions about potty training!


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## Tribalone (Aug 13, 2006)

thank you for your reply's


he is a little 6 week old chihuahua who still cries excessively during the night

loudly....



is it ok to ignore him to get him to realize when "sleepy Time" is?


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## Theuderic (Aug 1, 2006)

I have the same problem with my pup. He is 10 weeks old, we just got him last week. He is a German shepherd mix, about 13 lbs, small enough for a crate.

Every time we put him in, he stays awake and cries. We tried the sheet, we tried making his crate a happy place by feeding him in there, leaving his toys in there, giving him his treats/Kong toy in there...he cries everytime I shut the door. Once he finally sleeps, we have to be careful not to wake him up, because he will start whining again. We ignore the whines, but it seems like it has been getting worse. He has been whining longer, louder...

I need help!!!


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

The age of the puppy (even more so than the breed) is a CRITICAL factor. It worries me that you say "still crying" because it's sort of like saying a three-month old baby is "still crying". Any six-week old puppy is going to be distressed when left alone because it is actually a bit too early to be away from Mom (even though he's weaned). 

His reasons for crying are more biological and less behavioral. "Training" at this stage should not really be a focus. When he get's to be ten weeks, then you can start working on the program I described above.

For now, what he needs - primarily - is to be handled as much as possible and, when you put him in the crate, put something warm in with him. His own body heat may not be enough to keep him warm, even though you have blankets etc.. in the crate. In the past, when I've had to take a pup away that early I've used a heating pad UNDER the crate and lots of fuzzy (fleece-type) blankets. Make sure the heat is getting through the floor of the crate. It should be warm, but not hot and you need a blanket on the bottom of the crate as well. DO NOT put the heating pad inside the crate if the pup is likely to chew it. He's probably too young to do this, but don't take any chances. 

1 - Keep him warm all the time. 
2- Don't worry about "training" him for another few weeks
3- He might be hungry as well - you need to be feeding him often. What are you feeding? Try some wet CORN FREE food mixed with some puppy formula for another two-three weeks. 
4- Contrary to what the standard is for training, for the next few weeks DO NOT ignore him when he crys. At this age, he's crying because he needs something. 

Remember, he needs mom and his other pups, so you need to substitute for them. Hold him as much as possible until he gets a bit older. While I am not a huge fan of clothing on dogs, a sweater (if you can find/make one that small) would probably help. 

Let me know if you need any other info.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> . When they are secluded - removed from stimulation- they become less reactive. Essentially, they calm down! It's sort of like falling asleep in the car - we get bored with nothing to do, or when we've listened to all our cds - so we take a nap!
> 
> Here's why many people have a problem with crate training: They fail to effectively remove the dog from the stimulating environment.
> 
> Believe it or not, the sense of sight plays a big role. Put a dog in a crate where he can still SEE his people or activity and forget it. He'll go crazy trying to get to you. You need to remove the stimulation! Here's what I do - cover the crate with a sheet, or put it in a space where he absolutely cannot see anything. Be careful about air-flow and temperature. A light sheet is perfect or a small cool room.


I absolutely DISAGREE! Dogs are social creatures and NEED the reassurance of their people. I ALWAYS suggest placing the crate in the most active part of the house, and most professional training books agree with this approach. You are setting yourself up for some serious crate/separation anxiety by placing your dog into solitary confinement!


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Theuderic said:


> I have the same problem with my pup. He is 10 weeks old, we just got him last week. He is a German shepherd mix, about 13 lbs, small enough for a crate.
> 
> Every time we put him in, he stays awake and cries. We tried the sheet, we tried making his crate a happy place by feeding him in there, leaving his toys in there, giving him his treats/Kong toy in there...he cries everytime I shut the door. Once he finally sleeps, we have to be careful not to wake him up, because he will start whining again. We ignore the whines, but it seems like it has been getting worse. He has been whining longer, louder...
> 
> I need help!!!


Ok, you've got an easier situation (believe it or not!) It sounds like you are doing the right thing for the most part. Feeding him in the crate is great. The sheet is also a good idea. 

A couple of things to check on - what is your routine for using the crate? When does he go in? Is he in there all night without being taken out to use the bathroom? 

You said you have to be careful not to wake him up - how does this happen, can he see you or hear you? If so, try the fan for noise and make sure he can't see through that sheet! I've found a little tiny slit in the side is just like having no sheet at all. 

You said it's getting worse - the only reason that would be happening is because - somehow - he is learning that IF he cries he has success getting out or (more importantly) getting attention. 

You've got to get a program down, make sure it is reasonable (i.e. if he needs to go potty in the middle of the night still, you need to take him. See my post above for guidelines on how long they can stay in the crate) and then stick to it. If you're a little unsure about what you're doing, your pup will know it. Smarter dogs know how to capitalize on Mom and Dad's lack of knowledge! 

Of course, this is natural, healthy and probably means you have an intellegent dog. You just have to be smarter! 

Tell me your schedule/program for when he goes in the crate. 

You need to have him on a very regular schedule.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> 4- Contrary to what the standard is for training, for the next few weeks DO NOT ignore him when he crys. At this age, he's crying because he needs something.


Again, I disagree. Dogs learn very very quickly whether or not they've got you wrapped around their little paw. Give in to the cries now and you are setting yourself up for a spoiled, stubborn dog that is going to be harder to train. If you know the dog is fed, watered, has eliminated, is comfortable and has something to play with/chew on, the dog is crying for one thing - ATTENTION. 

Sure, it's sweet and cute now. But it isn't at 6 months old when you can't crate your dog in a situation that he/she needs to be, without the dog howling for attention.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

OwnedBySix said:


> I absolutely DISAGREE! Dogs are social creatures and NEED the reassurance of their people. I ALWAYS suggest placing the crate in the most active part of the house, and most professional training books agree with this approach. You are setting yourself up for some serious crate/separation anxiety by placing your dog into solitary confinement!


Actually, sepparation anxiety is more likely when the dog has no sense of independence. If you don't teach him that he is okay when he is alone, he'll never BE okay alone. That is exactly what sepparation anxiety is: "anxiety" over being alone!

Dogs are social but that doesn't mean they need to be with other living things 24-7. People are social but can you imagine never having any alone time? Balance is the key. Usually "solitary confinement" means being alone all day, every day. Sleeping alone and being alone a few hours hardly qualifies as "solitary confinement". 

Once the dog has learned two things: 
1- nothing bad is going to happen to him just because he is alone 
2- at certain times, he goes in the crate and at other times he is out of the crate 

THEN and only then, should you put the crate in the main area. When he's comfortable with being alone AND doesn't complain about the schedule then keeping him in the common area is fine.

If you do this carefully, you can usually teach him these two things in a couple of weeks, though sometimes it takes a little longer. 

Social contact is a good point to mention - it is amazing how many extremes I've seen of this. People who leave their adult dogs tied up alone out back all day every day - and then wonder why the dog is aggressive or "hyper". Then there is this other extreme of keeping the dog "attached" to you all the time. 

Bottom line, dogs can and should sleep through the night alone (until they are adults and then they can sleep wherever you/they want). They can spend several hours in the day alone, but need SOME contact with people or other animals the rest of the time. The reason why there are so many problems with poor socialization (including sepparation anxiety) is that this combination is logistically the hardest. Hey, who ever said having a dog was easy!

I'm also interested in which dog training books you are referring to and what the qualification of the authors are. I'm not suggesting that putting the dog in a "public" place is wrong - I don't know what context these books were suggesting. I am simply encouraging you to not take "dog training advice" at face value - including mine. This is why I explain all my answers and am also willing to provide background on my information. 

Just because the book says "Professional Dog Training", doesn't mean a thing. Do you know what it takes to become a "dog trainer"? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! All you have to do to write a dog training book is to convince a publisher that you know what you're doing. If a publisher thinks it will sell, they'll publish it. Do you think publishers know if it is good sound science? 

Please question the advice of all trainers (me included) Ask for explanation - WHY they are giving this advice? "In my experience" is not an answer - it is an opinion. If a trainer is unwilling to explain him/herself then they probably don't know what they are doing. 

Please note *** My answer here applies only to puppies over 10weeks of age. They should be kept with the mother and the litter before that age. Many irresponsible breeders like to sell them earlier because it's that much less time that they have to deal with them. Some may even think it's okay. It is not. Weaning is not the signal that the pup can leave mom. Your dog will be healthiest if he stays with mom until 9-10 weeks***


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## Theuderic (Aug 1, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> Ok, you've got an easier situation (believe it or not!) It sounds like you are doing the right thing for the most part. Feeding him in the crate is great. The sheet is also a good idea.
> 
> A couple of things to check on - what is your routine for using the crate? When does he go in? Is he in there all night without being taken out to use the bathroom?


One of the problems is that he does try and get out at night, and I know he might need to go to the bathroom, but sometimes he doesnt need to go and I have let him out for no reason. Usually we put him in there in the middle of the day, like after lunch, and at night to go to bed.



Kuvaszier said:


> You said you have to be careful not to wake him up - how does this happen, can he see you or hear you? If so, try the fan for noise and make sure he can't see through that sheet! I've found a little tiny slit in the side is just like having no sheet at all.


We covered his crate in towels and there is a floor fan next to his crate thats usually on full blast along with an AC unit in the window. We put him to bed, leave the room, and shut the door. He cries for like 20 minutes and finally stops. When we go to bed, we open the door and I think thats what wakes him up. If its not that its something else. This morning when I got up, I walked over and before I even opened the door I heard him get up and a few seconds later start whining.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Books by Brian Kilcommons and Patricia McConnell...among others. As well as my OWN experience with the 30+ foster dogs/puppies I have had through my home, as well as my own dogs.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

OwnedBySix said:


> Again, I disagree. Dogs learn very very quickly whether or not they've got you wrapped around their little paw. Give in to the cries now and you are setting yourself up for a spoiled, stubborn dog that is going to be harder to train. If you know the dog is fed, watered, has eliminated, is comfortable and has something to play with/chew on, the dog is crying for one thing - ATTENTION.
> 
> Sure, it's sweet and cute now. But it isn't at 6 months old when you can't crate your dog in a situation that he/she needs to be, without the dog howling for attention.


You as the dog owner can judge this for yourself. I can provide you with this information:

Developmentally, dogs do not begin to establish real social skills until they reach what is called the "critical socialization period". This period begins at about 9 weeks. Manipulating the behavior of other animals (including people) is a sophisticated social skill. If you think your little six-week old INFANT puppy is sophisticated enough to "wrap you around his finger", then by all means follow the other poster's advice. 

I can tell you definitevely that for another two weeks, your puppy probably just wants to eat and stay warm. When he gets to be 10 weeks, everything changes and you can START thinking about getting wrapped around his little paw. If you need any other back up for this view, please feel free to e-mail me. 

My suggestions relate to what you should do until the dog is 10 weeks old, no more. Dogs develop very quickly. There is a huge difference between a six week-old and a ten week-old. 

Good luck!


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Theuderic said:


> One of the problems is that he does try and get out at night, and I know he might need to go to the bathroom, but sometimes he doesnt need to go and I have let him out for no reason. Usually we put him in there in the middle of the day, like after lunch, and at night to go to bed.
> 
> 
> 
> We covered his crate in towels and there is a floor fan next to his crate thats usually on full blast along with an AC unit in the window. We put him to bed, leave the room, and shut the door. He cries for like 20 minutes and finally stops. When we go to bed, we open the door and I think thats what wakes him up. If its not that its something else. This morning when I got up, I walked over and before I even opened the door I heard him get up and a few seconds later start whining.


Ok, now we're getting somewhere! Your program sounds a little unstructured and this may be why things are getting a bit worse. Believe me, I'm not criticizing you - you are VERY close to having this work! You are doing more things right than wrong  

Make sure before he goes to bed that he has eaten, had water and eliminated. Then, keep that door closed! Remember, sensory deprivation! 

After he falls asleep and cries the first time, get up and take him right outside. But no messing around - if he doesn't go potty within the first 2 minutes (yes, look at your watch) put him back in the crate. DO NOT respond if he cries after that. Give him a few more hours and take him out whether he cries or not. If he doesn't go at that point then you've "busted" him! You know he is crying just for attention. At this point he can probably sleep through the night. 

Do this same routine for a few days, just to be sure. Don't deviate from that schedule even if you end up with an accident, which you probably wont. (One accident will not affect the training here.) 

Putting him in the crate in the afternoon is a good idea as well. Just make sure it is after YOUR lunch, not his! Feed him, exercise him (tire him out!) let him pee and poop and them give him his afternoon nap in the crate! Follow the same procedure for the evening - just leave him in there for a few hours. Wake him up if you have to, but keep the timing the same every day. 

Your primary job is to offer the puppy consistancy. YOU set the schedule, not the puppy. Give this a try and if it doesn't work, email me and we can dig into it a little more.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

OwnedBySix said:


> Books by Brian Kilcommons and Patricia McConnell...among others. As well as my OWN experience with the 30+ foster dogs/puppies I have had through my home, as well as my own dogs.


Okay, thank you for providing two of the authors' names. 

Do you know what is Brian Kilcommons background? What is the rationale for what he is saying? Is the author saying don't use "solitary confinement"? Are any of these authors suggesting that isolating a 10+ week old puppy can cause sepparation anxiety? Or is this your assertion based on your 30+ foster dogs? 

I understand that when you've raised and fostered a number of dogs and you get a system down for yourself, it seems like you have the answer for all dogs. I have also had my own dog ownership/training experience (probably like everyone else here.) 

But if owning dogs was enough to understand the answers, why are there so many problems? I could mention to you how many dogs I've owned/raised and trained, but it would take away my credibility because that doesn't mean anything. Animal behavior is a science, just like medicine or physics. Just because you have a heart attack doesn't make you qualified to treat heart patients. 

I'm glad you've had success with your own dogs. They are lucky to have someone who cares enough to foster them.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Hmmm... I crate my corgi pup in the living room - during the day AND at night when we're sleeping (crate is covered with a thin blanket). During the day, if he's crated, we are nearby and it makes him feel better (but we can leave and go places without any problems), although we would IGNORE any whining etc. he made (sometimes by getting up and LEAVING the room if he persisted) because we knew he had everything he needed, and he was let out after he'd been quiet for a little bit. At night, he is out of earshot, and so in the beginning, any noise he made got no reactions from us (not even changes in breathing) because we weren't there.

He is 7 months old now and very well-behaved in his crate, alone or not. >^_^<


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Cheetah said:


> Hmmm... I crate my corgi pup in the living room - during the day AND at night when we're sleeping (crate is covered with a thin blanket). During the day, if he's crated, we are nearby and it makes him feel better (but we can leve and go places without any problems), although we would IGNORE any whining etc. he made (sometimes by getting up and LEAVING the room if he persisted) because we knew he had everything he needed, and he was let out after he'd been quiet for a little bit. At night, he is out of earshot, and so in the beginning, any noise he made got no reactions from us (not even changes in breathing) because we weren't there.
> 
> He is 7 months old now and very well-behaved in his crate, alone or not. >^_^<


Thank you Cheetah - his illustrates my point exactly.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> Thank you Cheetah - his illustrates my point exactly.


Did we just read the same thing? Cheetah posted the crate is in the living room (normally a high traffic area), which you said not to do, and also posted that even in the beginning his pup got NO reactions when whining, which you also said was incorrect.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> I understand that when you've raised and fostered a number of dogs and you get a system down for yourself, it seems like you have the answer for all dogs.


No, this is not the case at all. However, my premise (and most books/websites on dog training) that the crate should be placed in a high-traffic area of the home and that puppy should not be catered to when whining in the crate, is common sense applied to known animal behavior and instinct. EVERY trainer and EVERY dog owner must bend at times to accomodate a dog's quirks. This, however, is pretty straightforward stuff.

You are trying to combine two very different and sometimes difficult things (crate training and alone training) into one very confusing and stressful time for a puppy that has just been taken away from everything and everyone he/she knows. I really feel you are setting people up to fail by suggesting this route, as it only complicates and places further stress on human and dog alike.

I call it 'solitary confinement' because to a puppy that's never been in your home or in a crate before, that is basically what it is. That pup is going to have a much harder time settling down in a room that it doesn't know well and that will be compounded when it's new humans don't even come into the room! Alone training should ONLY be done after crate training has been successful. If not, you are much more likely to end up with a dog that freaks out at both being in a crate AND being alone. I've witnessed the failures and seen the injuries. I've seen a 3 year old dog with NO FRONT TEETH thanks to constant gnawing on the crate bars as he tried in vain to get out day after day. A dog that had been properly (and positively) acclimated to a crate, and then to being left alone, would NOT exhibit these behaviors.

And you are just kidding yourself if you don't think that coddling a puppy from 6-10 weeks of age every time he/she whines is going to make training much more difficult in the following months. Again, this is common sense at work here. Puppy isn't whining because he NEEDS something, he is whining because he WANTS his people and to be out of this crate! Unless that pup has some underlying medical condition that warrants it, puppy should be left to settle him/herself as long his other needs have been met.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Cheetah said the crate is in the living room. Cheetah also said her pup is 7 months old.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Once again, I ask you - which books, which websites? Who are your references? I can find a website that says almost anything about any topic. I would like to read a specific example to see what exactly is being said and if it is a credible source. 

If you, or anyone else would like to read about the points I've been making about canine development, a great book is Dr. Karen Overall's "Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animals". It's a pretty hard to read textbook, so if you'd like I can provide the chapter and pages that relate to this topic. Karen Overall is a pretty reliable source, she's a veterinarian with a specialization in behavioral pharmacology (behavior drugs), a Certified Animal Behaviorist and a member of the Animal Behavior Society. If you would like to learn about these organizations, I'm sure you can track them down on the web. 

Please let me break this down again. At SIX weeks, the dog should not be away from the mother/litter to begin with. The dog has biological needs that can only be satisfied by the mother and litter mates. If the dog has ALREADY been removed from the proper environment, then the dog needs to be given an environment and stimulation that is as close as possible to mom/litter. 

Remember, six week old puppies are just getting used to their own bodies, much less trying to manipulate their human owners. Once they get to be 3-4 months old, however, all bets are off. The AGE of the dog makes an enormous differnece. 

When the puppy is old enough to be physically independent - 9-10 weeks, then the puppy should be taught that being alone is nothing to be afraid of. How do you suggest acclimating the puppy to being alone if not by actually leaving him alone at some point? Do you recommend keeping the puppy with you 24 hours a day until he/she is... what, six months old? Not even mother dogs can handle that. 

Of course putting a crate in a "high traffic" area is eventually a great idea because it accomodates potty training, it manages the dog's activity etc... But if you don't allow the dog to learn that sleeping alone is okay and being alone sometimes is okay, he will "freak out" when the day comes that he needs to be left alone. 

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "crate training" vs. "alone training". What are you "training" with the crate? I think you'll find if you visit those websites and read those books again that there are two purposes to "crate training". First is, teaching the dog to be comfortable closed in the crate, alone. Second is for purposes of housetraining. 

The crate is a tool to manage behavior - to allow the dog to soothe him/herself when alone and also to control activity to accomodate potty training. 

I hear you saying two different things here. Don't coddle the six week-old puppy, but don't leave a 10 week old puppy alone for an instant! 

I'm sorry if my posts seem confrontational, I do get very concerned about the generalities that are in dog training books for this very reason. 

Once again, your enthusiastic replies indicate to me that you are a true dog lover. I am happy to discuss this all day with anyone who has their heart in the right place.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I should also mention that I got him at 12 weeks, he wasn't completely quiet when I first got him, and I never coddle my dogs no matter what age they are (although I don't get dogs younger than 10-12 weeks old anyway). Bad behaviors are ignored from the beginning. >^^;<

But basically, I said that I do both. During the day Shippo is in the high traffic area with people, other pets, tv, radio, whatever although sometimes there's nobody around. At night, the livingroom is empty and quiet and out of earshot.

Are some of those good books also by Jean Donaldson and Dr. Ian Dunbar? I've finally got "Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson and it's awesome so far. I want Patricia McConnell's "The Other End of the Leash" next.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

*Great Books*

Ian Dunbar is a great dog trainer. He's very popular and I like him because he writes easy-to-digest training books that lots of people read. He's a great source. 

I'll come back and post my favorite books on training and behavior. Dunbar is an excellent place to start, as is Culture Clash.


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## Theuderic (Aug 1, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> After he falls asleep and cries the first time, get up and take him right outside. But no messing around - if he doesn't go potty within the first 2 minutes (yes, look at your watch) put him back in the crate. DO NOT respond if he cries after that. Give him a few more hours and take him out whether he cries or not. If he doesn't go at that point then you've "busted" him! You know he is crying just for attention. At this point he can probably sleep through the night.


Last night was interesting. I did what you said, first time he cried I let him out. He didnt go within 2 minutes so I put him back. This is the part that hurts. He woke up every so often and whined, like almost every 45/60 minutes. I barely got any sleep. Time to start using headphones. Anyway, We ignored him every time, which is difficult to do since you just want to say "SHUT UP!" I just let him out this morning to let him pee and to give him breakfast. He peed an ocean on the wee wee pad! It was so much, I didnt think a 2 1/2 month old pup could hold all that. I think my dog definitely thinks he is smarter than his owners.

I fed him breakfast in his crate, shut the door, and surprisingly very little whining. He went right back to sleep. Interesting...

EDIT: Spoke too soon, I heard him whining as I walked out to leave for work. >=[


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Theuderic said:


> Last night was interesting. I did what you said, first time he cried I let him out. He didnt go within 2 minutes so I put him back. This is the part that hurts. He woke up every so often and whined, like almost every 45/60 minutes. I barely got any sleep. Time to start using headphones. Anyway, We ignored him every time, which is difficult to do since you just want to say "SHUT UP!" I just let him out this morning to let him pee and to give him breakfast. He peed an ocean on the wee wee pad! It was so much, I didnt think a 2 1/2 month old pup could hold all that. I think my dog definitely thinks he is smarter than his owners.
> 
> I fed him breakfast in his crate, shut the door, and surprisingly very little whining. He went right back to sleep. Interesting...
> 
> EDIT: Spoke too soon, I heard him whining as I walked out to leave for work. >=[


You did great! You may not realize, but this is an enormous amount of progress - believe it or not one night of learning is SO valuable to your pup. 

Don't worry about the whining when you were leaving. I'd like to describe something that I call the "Coke Machine Syndrome" (in clinical-speak it's called an "Extinction Burst") Basically what it means is that before a behavior goes away, there is a burst of increased behavior (gets worse before it gets better) 

Imagine that every day you go to a coke machine. For arguement's sake, let's say it's free. Every day, you push the button and your coke pops out. One day you show up and push the button and nothing happens. What would you do? You'd probably furrow your brow, think to yourself "What's going on?" and then... hit that button five times in a row, fast. Then you might hit it once more for good measure. Then you'd give up and find another source of caffine.

To your dog, whining is like pushing the button. Getting your attention or getting let out of the crate is the reward (the can of coke). If you stop giving him attention he's going to go through the same process you did with the coke machine. 

What is absolutely critical is that you stick to your guns. You are right on target with the headphones. 

A couple of things I need to mention, however. First - be absolutely sure he's been fed, watered, PEED AND POOPED before you put him in the crate. I'm assuming you did this before you left for work? Second - how long is he being left in the crate during the day? Crating both at night and during the day can cause some difficulties in and of itself. Do you have any other options to crating during the day? Or, if you need to, can you let him out and exercise him for a few hours mid-day?

Do this again tonight and remember the Coke Machine. It may get worse before it gets better (hey, who needs sleep?!) but if you do your job- make sure he has eliminated before bedtime- and stick to your schedule, you will succeed! 

Let me know how it goes! Congrats on your success so far.

Note - just a reminder, the default for time in the crate before being let out to go is once every ____ hours. Fill in the blank with however many months old the pup is. In your case, every two 1/2 hours. If he CAN make it longer, great, do it. With you, it sounds like he's proven his bladder control skills. (With others, start with the formula above and lengthen the time as the dog improves his ability to hold it. ) It sounds like you let him out twice last night - keep doing that for another week, then go to once, then let him sleep all night.


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## ThxForNothing (Jun 3, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> But if owning dogs was enough to understand the answers, why are there so many problems? I could mention to you how many dogs I've owned/raised and trained, but it would *take away my credibility* because that *doesn't mean anything*. Animal behavior is a science, just like medicine or physics. *Just because you have a heart attack doesn't make you qualified to treat heart patients.*


I've been scanning through/reading this thread, and i've really got something I need to get out:


Look, while I appericiate the fact that you are here trying to help fellow members, I do NOT appericiate this comment what so ever. Are you trying to say that we are not qualified to give dog training advice, simply because we didn't go to some goddamn school for their behavior??

Give me a f*cking break. How arrogant is THAT.


Some people simply have what it takes to train dogs. To some of us, it comes naturally. Maybe you don't want to believe that, but i'm sorry it's the truth. I never went to some fancy college for canine behavior, (although I would love to don't get me wrong), but you know what? The dogs and the people I've helped/help speak for themselves! We CAN give advice, and we CAN help people-- with or without a degree.




...gr.


And if this is simply a misunderstanding, then I apologize-- but I don't think it is...


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

The value of my advice is not in my degree. I have not once said - "I'm right because I went to a fancy school", have I? Regardless of how I got my information, it has value. Or maybe it doesn't - let people decide that for themselves. 

Give the things I suggest a try and decide then if it's arrogent or helpful. 

Would you like me to keep my opinion to myself JUST BECAUSE I have a formal education? (Just fyi, they didn't just hand me my degree, I had to work VERY HARD for it for a LONG TIME). 

Also, I have spent many, many years in the trenches - cleaning dog poop; stiching up dog wounds; in the emergency room myself having fingers sewn back on; euthanizing half-dead animals hit by cars or left to die by neglectful owners; feeding dozens and dozens of foster dogs. I have trained over 1,000 dogs - not all of them have been successful, but the majority have and I am very glad of that. 

Everything I've learned in school has been practiced. I've made every single mistake you can imagine, including those mentioned here. I hope that I will find good information here myself, because I still make mistakes all the time! 

And, if I read good advice, that makes sense and that has a solid base in the principles of animal behavior (whether on purpose or not) I will be grateful for that advice. 

I've NEVER implied that other's advice has no value without a degree! I've known people who understood the fundamental science of animal behavior who never made it past grade school. 

I have no judgement of people, only the merits of the information. And, if you want to criticize me, I suggest you criticize my methods and/or information, not what you think is my personality. 

Debate is very healthy because it helps uncover the truth. But personal attacks are just childish. Please let's not waste people's time talking about me. I don't think anyone cares. 

Let's just talk about dogs, okay?


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## ThxForNothing (Jun 3, 2006)

No, you have not said that once. Nor did I claim that you did. I am aware that your information has value, but our information has value as well. The statement that you made which I quoted offended me. It made me feel like because some of us don't have a degree, our advice isn't as good, or doesn't mean as much. Something which I completely disagree with.

_*"I could mention to you how many dogs I've owned/raised and trained, but it would take away my credibility because that doesn't mean anything."*_

I mean honestly, can you not see where I am coming from here? First you say that, then you go on in this new post to say that regardless of HOW you got the infromation, it has value. Some of us get out information out of personal experience. _Like I said in the post I made originally, "IF THIS IS A MISUNDERSTANDING, I APOLOGIZE" -- look past THAT part of my post, though, that's fine._


I never said keep your opinion to yourself. Not once. I don't have a problem with anyone in this forum voicing their opinions. I'm glad we all have different opinions, it makes things interesting.

Also, I know that they don't just hand you a degree, i'm not stupid.

I don't know why you are going on about how many years you have spent in "the tenches" - that has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation at all. I'm not even going to say anything regarding it other than that.


*"I've NEVER implied that other's advice has no value without a degree!"*

The only reason we are having this discussing right now is because that I felt you were putting down our advice because we lacked higher education. The comment that it "didnt mean anything" to own/train/raise a dog pissed me off. You said it would take away your credibility.


*"Give the things I suggest a try and decide then if it's arrogent or helpful."*

I didn't call your advice arrogent. This has absolutely nothing to do with the specific advice you gave. This has to do with the comment you made that annoyed me-- As i've said many times now. I -ALSO- said if it was a simple misunderstanding that I apologize, but again, I guess you just looked right passed that one, eh?



_*"f you want to criticize me, I suggest you criticize my methods and/or information, not what you think is my personality."*_

I didn't even criticize you, all I did was say that what you said was arrogant. And I still stand by that, I honestly believe it was. I don't feel that I am wrong for having this opinion, either. I mean come ON-- you said: *"Animal behavior is a science, just like medicine or physics. Just because you have a heart attack doesn't make you qualified to treat heart patients."*

compairing dog training to that? ...riight.

I think I am qualified to give advice to people regarding their dogs and their behavior. As are alot of folks here, who do not have degrees.




But sure, let's just talk dogs.


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## Theuderic (Aug 1, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> A couple of things I need to mention, however. First - be absolutely sure he's been fed, watered, PEED AND POOPED before you put him in the crate. I'm assuming you did this before you left for work?


Seeing the ocean he peed, I should hope so .



Kuvaszier said:


> Second - how long is he being left in the crate during the day? Crating both at night and during the day can cause some difficulties in and of itself. Do you have any other options to crating during the day? Or, if you need to, can you let him out and exercise him for a few hours mid-day?


During the day, he gets a little tired. We do exercize him alot, walk him about 3-4 times a day. When he is tired during the day, he likes to sleep on the carpet in the living room. We think that he should learn to sleep in his crate, so thats when we take him over. Its usually once in the afternoon.





Kuvaszier said:


> Let me know how it goes! Congrats on your success so far.


Thanks


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

That sounds perfect. 

I mention the crating because, unfortunately, many times people will crate all night then crate all day without a break. Not much of a life! 

Keep me posted, I'm rooting for you guys


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Apparently you are misunderstanding me.

Crate training is acclimating a puppy/dog to a crate and enforcing that it is a 'happy and good place to be'. This includes placing the crate in an area that the pup has access to even when he has free time. Best toys in there, best treats in there, super comfy, FEED in there if necessary. Pup should be able to go in there at will during his supervised 'free runs'.

Note - The crate is USED as a housebreaking aid as a place to confine pup when human cannot supervise, since most puppies/dogs will not soil their 'den'. Only to be used AFTER puppy's needs have been met, ie toileting (pee AND poop), feeding, watering, stimulation.

Now, bedtime and 'being alone during the day' are 2 VERY different things to a dog. First night or 2 of puppy being crated for the night, I always expect (and am rarely disappointed lol) some whining. However, it tapers off. Usually by the 3rd or 4th night, we are sleeping through, peacefully. The youngest pup I have ever had was 7 weeks old. It worked for her as well, and she turned out to be a wonderful, well-behaved and well-rounded dog.

Dogs, as I'm sure you know, do well by a routine. They realize quickly that every night around the same time, their people go into that room and turn off the lights and put them in their comfy crate. Even though puppy had his mom/littermates at his OLD house, most likely the routine was somewhat similar. Most people DO sleep at night. I always suggest that new dog owners take at least a week or 2 off of work to help ease their dog into the transition of being alone during the day. This *usually* doesnt take more than 2-4 days. 

When puppy is sleeping through the night and shows no signs of distress in the crate, then it is time for puppy to understand that it is also ok to be in the crate all alone during the day. We have already taught puppy that it is ok to #1 be in his crate with his people nearby, #2 ok to be in his crate at nighttime when everyone goes to sleep. 'Alone training' consists of leaving your dog home alone during the day, first for 5-10 minutes, then 1/2 hour, an hour etc. Each time toning down comings and goings as much as possible, and always leaving pup with fun things to do - Kong, toys, etc. Sometimes leaving a radio with soft music helps, or as you suggested a fan for white noise. This process, if done every day and consistently, should not take longer than a week and often takes less than that. 

Note also that I do not agree with leaving a young puppy alone for an 8 hour shift. I suggest owners come home on their lunch breaks or hire someone to take puppy outside and stimulate him for a while. Once housebreaking is complete (Generally not before 6-10 months at the very earliest), pup can be confined to a puppy safe room as opposed to the crate.

This is the process I was taught and use, and the one that I suggest to other dog owners. As you see I never suggest not leaving a '10 week old alone for an instant', as you thought. 

The process is generally much faster for a puppy than an adult dog, but usually will be successful for both.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

That sounds a bit different than what you said before about "solitary confinement". 

I'm glad you don't agree with leaving a dog alone for an eight hour shift while someone is at work. I would never suggest this - and I don't think I have suggested it. 

The issue was about a dog crated at night and whining. First a six week-old and then an older puppy. I suggested that the six week old be attended to based on need and that the owner be more responsive to whining by this puppy because of his age. 

Then I suggested that the older puppy be put in the crate at night and taken out during the night to go. I suggested that they put the crate in an isolated spot at night to reduce the external stimulation - and, by the way, allow the owners to get some rest. 

That's it. What part of this do you disagree with? Your first comment after my post was "I DISAGREE". Then you went on to talk about dogs being social creatures. 

You are right - I don't understand what you are saying.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

*sigh* the difference is in the placement of the crate. You are adding to his anxiety by putting the crate in a room that is seldom used. To help pup become acclimated to the crate, it should be placed, during the day, in a high traffic area of the home. Simple!

And...taking a young puppy out to eliminate ONCE during the night, is very different from your suggestion of 'he is whining because he needs something'. In this case, most people would get little or NO sleep!


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

You need to go back and re-read my post and what I was suggesting. Fortunately, the person with the puppy in question seemed to understand.


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## ThxForNothing (Jun 3, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> Then I suggested that the older puppy be put in the crate at night and taken out during the night to go. I suggested that they put the crate in an isolated spot at night to reduce the external stimulation - and, by the way, allow the owners to get some rest.


Eh, I personally wouldn't do this. My reasoning being that my state of mind is, my dog has to get use to not getting what she wants. She can whine and cry and claw at the crate (which my dog never did, btw, shes always been good about it) and I will not acknowledge it. She then learns that there is no point to carry on with such rude, exhausting behavior. Even if she can see people, and their activities.


I am in complete agreement with OwnedbySix.


*
EDIT: I like to add something....*

_"I suggested that the six week old be attended to based on need and that the owner be more responsive to whining by this puppy because of his age."_

I disagree.. I honestly don't believe that the owners should be more responsive to the whinning puppy. If they are doing crate training the proper way as they should, then the only reason the puppy would have to whine about would be wanting to get attention. And we all know that if you cave with ANY animal who is being pushy, they are going to learn that they can get their way.

If the puppy is whinning, and they feel the need to let 'em out for whatever reason, I always advise people to wait until the dog has clamed down a little, (ie; taken a short break from whinning) and then release the dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Is it me, or are you guys just not following Kuvaszier's explanations? I would like someone else to comment on this other than those who have posted in this thread. I have a real feeling that the problem is no disagreeing to disagree, but comprehension. Do other's see this too? I have a feeling that you all are arguing the same point.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Well, this has been interesting. 

It is probably not a good idea to leave a 10 week old puppy in the crate all night without being taken out unless you want to be cleaning up pee every morning. 

A 10 week old puppy might be able to hold it all night, but probably not. That's not a training thing, that's a bladder size thing. 

But you do what you like. Best of luck to you.


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## juls (Aug 7, 2006)

Kuvaszier said:


> Well, this has been interesting.
> 
> It is probably not a good idea to leave a 10 week old puppy in the crate all night without being taken out unless you want to be cleaning up pee every morning.
> 
> ...


My 10 week old puppy sleeps in a crate by my bed at night and rarely wakes me up... she's been holding it for about 7 hrs and has never had an accident. She could be an exception though


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Is it me, or are you guys just not following Kuvaszier's explanations? I would like someone else to comment on this other than those who have posted in this thread. I have a real feeling that the problem is no disagreeing to disagree, but comprehension. Do other's see this too? I have a feeling that you all are arguing the same point.


I was thinking the same thing.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

juls said:


> My 10 week old puppy sleeps in a crate by my bed at night and rarely wakes me up... she's been holding it for about 7 hrs and has never had an accident. She could be an exception though


I think the exception might be a puppy that sleeps peacefully through the night vs. a puppy who becomes restless/active in the crate. Activity seems to initiate elimination.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

I've had a number of 10 week-olds who made it through the night as well. It's so nice when that happens! It just depends on the dog. 

I usually just start out the first few nights with the "formula" (out once every ___ hours - for each month old the pup is.) If they aren't going to the bathroom when I take them out in the middle of the night (on my schedule, not when they whine) I leave them longer the next night. 

It seems to me better to take them out more often at first, then work up to an all-nighter. It has typically taken me about a week or so to get the routine down. 

I prefer this in the beginning because, if you do end up leaving them too long, and they soil the crate, housetraining problems can start - and those are harder to fix once the dog has established a pattern. 

Thanks for your feedback juls!


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## Theuderic (Aug 1, 2006)

Just to let everyone know, I was able to get a full nights sleep last night!!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Yeah! This is good news. Keep up the good work, and I hope many more full nights will follow.


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## Kuvaszier (Aug 14, 2006)

Great job! Congrats!

It doesn't usually work that fast  (Knock on Wood!)


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