# THAT went well (NOT!) - Vet & Raw diet clash



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Well let me start out saying that I love my vet. I have used him since he first started out and he's always been there for me. When we had 2 dogs and I was single again and raising my son alone, he would give me "first customer" discounts and things to help out. I have recommended him to hundreds of people and I believe they all use him.

Now the problem...

I started Flash on a raw diet the day after her last appointment with him. I didn't discuss it with him so he couldn't sway me one way or the other. Flash had her next appointment today and I finally told him. He didn't seem to happy. He started telling me that dog's are omnivores like us  and the people doing raw diets don't feed enough veggies and that meat should only be 20-30% of a dog's diet.  He said he has more health issues with the dogs that are fed raw diets locally (skin problems, behavior problems, digestive problems, etc.) He thinks kibble is bad (he does recommend Iams to "traditional" dog feeders). He carries and sells Orijen and Taste of the Wild dog foods and even gave me a bag of Orijen puppy food FREE to try. (Note: Flash was excited when I opened it but when she saw it was kibble, she ate like 3 pieces and lost interest. )

So my question is this...how many of you long time raw feeders feed veggies and what veggies do you feed and what percentage of the diet do you think it makes up? I'm still very leery on this veggie thing. Dogs are carnivores.

For the first time I find myself questioning this vet I have used for a couple decades. Dogs are omnivores?? Also he didn't seem to have a clue what green tripe was and that the tripe in grocery stores is bleached.  I hate it when one of my heroes falls off their pedestal. Bottom line is I will do what I think is right for Flash and only Flash!


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

The vast majority of vets have little to no knowledge on nutrition.

No comments on the kibble stuff, I'm sure a lot of people are going to try to convince you want to eat. That said...

It's as you know. Dogs are carnivores. Looking at their teeth and digestive system makes this clear as day that they are not equipped to eat vegetables. The teeth are meant for ripping and tearing not crushing (hence why we have the molars in the back of our mouth... to crush veggies)

Raw feeders do not feed veggies as anything other than the occasional treat. The only way a dog can digest raw veggies is if you put it in a blender and make puree out of it. It makes no sense to do that.

So yeah, ignore your vet when it comes to diet. Vets are for medicine, Behaviorists are for behavior, Nutritionists are for nutrition. It's best to keep it all separate


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Isn't Orijen more than 20-30% meat?

Maybe you could put together some reading material for him. If he doesn't know about green tripe that is pretty bad.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I have been a raw feeder since 1993. The condition and performance of my dogs speaks for itself.

I use vegetables only occasionally. I rarely buy just for the dogs. They get table leftovers.

I do use grains on growing puppies and bitches who are in whelp or nursing. Once dogs are mature, unless they are being bred, they get very little grains.

The diet my dogs get is probably 97% RMBs, meat, and organ meat.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

oh, by the way.....

I don't discuss diet with my vet.


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Yes, the Orijen bag says 75% animal products and it also says "dogs are carnivores".  Mixed messages there. Probably raw diet is getting blamed for health problems due to morons owning dogs! In this city, 90% of dog owners shouldn't be! (Nor should they have the kids they are raising on welfare!)

That's why I stay close to this forum and the raw feeding groups...to get nutritional expertise from people (and dogs) who are living it!

By the way, the only veggies in the house was frozen broccoli with cheese sauce. You guessed it...Flash ate the cheese sauce and spread the broccoli all over the floor and quit! Omnivore, my a$$!


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Red...without naming names (not that he would know you) I told him there were several people especially breeders of show dogs that feed raw without veggies and have been doing so for a long time. Particularly I told him there was a Rottweiler breeder who seemed very knowledgeable and has prize show dogs (that would be you ) who does excellent on this diet.

You know it's odd. I feel like I should be hung for the cheap crap kibble I fed my first two dogs. (with age comes wisdom?). This vet NEVER asked what I fed my dogs. Now I hear him asking everyone who brings in a pet. Is it a new thing to blame diet or are they just starting to realize diets count toward health. Now if they could get some unbiased proper education on nutrition, pet owners would be in real good hands!

Flash and I will persevere and I will try not to bring diet up again at his office. I will come here and to the raw feeding groups with all my questions and concerns. Thanks for being there!


----------



## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

When I feed my dog carrots (or other veggies for that matter) as a treat she poops out chewed bits...if she was meant to eat them she would be able to digest them. I do feed pureed veggies sometimes but not every meal.

My last vet asked what Maggie ate and I guess I had the look on my face that said "this isnt open for disscussion" because he just said "oh" and went on his business with the dog...but you could tell he wasnt impressed. Now we have moved and I have been to three vets (one was for the cat though) and the third one I took Bella to asked what she was eating...and I said I feed her raw. She said so you just feed her raw meat? I said " No she gets a chicken and bone ground mix with beef, heart, liver, kidneys, gizzards, salmon oil and I top it all off with missing link (which I was surprised to see she sold the vets verson of this, I am going to have to compare them) any ways she turned to Bella and said " wow sounds like you are eating pretty good to me" and then went on to comment how great she looks and how nice her coat is. 

I was very happy when I left because I really liked this vet and it will be easy to discuss food things with her now.


----------



## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Most vets will be against a raw diet, as it goes against what they were taught.
My vet is all about science diet, IAMs, purina ect.

When I took the cat in and she asked what she ate I said taste of the wolf, but she hates it so Im making the switch to somthing else (now she is on before grain, and she eats like a pig, must love it the picky thing, She better love it for 20 bucks for a 3lbs bag. But it lasts her a month) And my vet said "Oh taste of the wild is made by eukanuba right?" I said no, and she argued with me that it was. And then I said I wouldnt feed that to my cat or dog.

So we totaly clash when it comes to foods, but thats ok lol
If you are happy with your vet otherwise. I wouldnt question him.

Id keep feeding what you feel comfortable feeding.

I took Blaze tot he vet yesterday for his yearly checkup/needles. And like every year she asks me what he is eating, As I just made the switch in August, So I knew she would ask and id have tot ell her the switch. I knew she would be against it, as she has pampheltes in the waiting room saying how bad it is. I told her, her responce was "I hope its just carrots." I said "No" Then she said "wow his teeth are amazing, coat is great ect" and I just said "Yea it must be all that RAW diet I feed him" She shut up lol.

My vets great either way. Not every one will agree with RAW. and Im fine with it. Otherwise she is a great vet. always there for me when I need her, staff are awsome. as I work downstairs at the grooming shop. So Blaze and I pop in every 2 weeks or so. Just to keep the place a positive experience to him, he gets treats from them ect. So Im always in there. and enjoy them otherwise. Plus the discount I get for working in the building is great too lol


----------



## phoebespeople (May 27, 2009)

I have had similar conversations (confrontations) with Vets. In this case, YOU are right and he is wrong. Good for you for feeding RAW. 
I finally found a Vet that is RAW friendly. 
As for your question, I feed Phoebe a veggie puree every once in a while, not very often, just when I get bored. There is no real harm in it as far as I can see. It might not be all that beneficial though, and is probably not necessary at all. Even though dogs are carnivores, they can eat, digest, and extract some nutrients form almost anything. We see dogs that live in garbage dumps/landfills in 3rd world countries, and even though they are very unhealthy, they do survive. That's how I view kibble fed dogs. A dog can survive on rendered animal protein meal by-product, grain filler, salt, and preservatives. They may not be healthy all their life, but they will survive for a while.
As long as you do your research with RAW food, keep asking questions, keep learning more about it, and pay attention to your dog, RAW is the best thing anyone can do for their dog.


----------



## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

Oh a kibble comment I would like to make is....when we got Maggie she was eating Iams puppy chow...that went right in the garbage and she was switched to raw right away...no gradual switch. When we picked her up my husband was allergic to her. He had to have his puffer and his eyes were red, itchy and watery. This went on for about a week then he was no longer allergic to her. We have had her for almost a year now with no problems between him and her...we just got Bella and because she is a puppy I have been feeding some kibble. Its a good brand (the go! brand) Bella gets at least one kibble meal a day and so I have been feeding Maggie the kibble at the same time. Lately Maggie has been giving my husband asthma again. We figured the raw was the reason she didnt bother him but never had any proof...now that she is back to kibble (we fed some kibble before but it was only about 1 meal a month when raw wasnt convient) his issues are back when he holds her (We figure Bella is a "hypoallergenic" mix because he doesnt have any problems when he holds her...so its not because we have a new dog)...interesting what comes out of the dog in their dander!


----------



## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Do what you think is right. 

Again it comes down to your beliefs on whether or not dogs NEED vegetables. Dogs were not meant to eat vegetables, sure they can eat them and they may provide SOME nutritional benefit, but the way they are designed.....look at their teeth and that tells you everything. How are they NOT carnivores? 

I have not yet told our vet about our switch, I know I need to but I am concerned it will go over the same way. THeir shelves are stocked with mostly Science Diet & Eukanueba. 

Do what you know is best for you and your dog. When you bring Flash in and when his health is shining through, remind your vet of his diet. I'm sure it will speak for itself.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Nallah06 said:


> look at their teeth and that tells you everything.


+1. Dead on.


----------



## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm going to have to ask my vets what they think about RAW. I can't wrap my arms around it so mine are stuck with kibble. But it will be interesting to see what he has to say...


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> I'm going to have to ask my vets what they think about RAW. I can't wrap my arms around it so mine are stuck with kibble. But it will be interesting to see what he has to say...


Probably a waste of time, IMO.


----------



## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

Let me start out by saying that I do believe dogs are carnivores. However, I do think that they can digest properly processed vegetables, fruits and grains. There are dogs that live long lives on vegetarian diets and that would not be possible if the only food that a dog can actually utilize is from an animal source.

Of course, some dogs, like one of mine, just LOVE vegetables! Hershey will freak out when I am making a salad. She munches a lettuce leaf like a rabbit and thoroughly enjoys cucumbers, red bell peppers, carrots, radishes or any other veggie that I give her. I know she doesn't digest carrots very well, because I see them the next day in the yard! But, she sure loves her veggies.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i made a deal/proposition with my vet

they started giving me the "raw is bad" line.

i cut her off at the pass and said "ok well then lets test that hypothesis and you can use my dog as a case study/guinea pitp)."

so she runs barrages of tests everytime we go in and collects the data. she's started doing it with a few of her other raw feeding clients as well.

we will continue with the tests for the remainder of Bolo's life. 

my two cents.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

The most complete scientific biological consensus I have seen is that dogs and wolves are not TRUE carnivores. However they are also not as omnivorous as bears and humans.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

FlashTheRottwuggle said:


> Yes, the Orijen bag says 75% animal products and it also says "dogs are carnivores".  Mixed messages there. Probably raw diet is getting blamed for health problems due to morons owning dogs! In this city, 90% of dog owners shouldn't be! (Nor should they have the kids they are raising on welfare!)
> 
> That's why I stay close to this forum and the raw feeding groups...to get nutritional expertise from people (and dogs) who are living it!
> 
> By the way, the only veggies in the house was frozen broccoli with cheese sauce. You guessed it...Flash ate the cheese sauce and spread the broccoli all over the floor and quit! Omnivore, my a$$!


I've seen some people royally butcher (no pun intended ) the raw diet. They don't research, they don't learn, and they make it harder than it really is. One woman who boarded her dog eons ago told us her dog was on a specific diet, a "whole foods" diet. We figured it was homecooked or raw. HER idea of a "whole foods diet" was a bowl of cereal (cornflakes and fruit loops, if I recall correctly), topped with a whole can of corn or a whole can of green beans. The meat was hotdogs, bologna, and/or processed lunchmeat that even *I* wouldn't eat. YUCK. Her dog reeked, even after a bath. 
I've talked to a few friends of mine who are vets and/or techs, and they see the "horror" stories. People who feed inexperienced dogs chicken drumsticks and the dog swallows them whole, or the lady who fed her aussie nothing but steaks and he would up with some messed up CBC levels. People who do the raw diet right don't have to rush to the vet because their dog is messed up; people who research the diet and do what they're supposed to do have gorgeous, healthy dogs with energy to burn. 
I've fed raw, I wish I could still feed it but it's time consuming. I have a gulper (Dude) who has choked twice (once on raw, once on kibble). Mom fed the dogs and went outside, when she came back inside Dude was choking (on kibble). She grabbed him up and did a finger sweep in his throat (he was in the process of passing out) and got the wad of food out, and THANK GOD he was alright. 
No matter what I feed I don't plunk down food dishes and leave. Another reason why I keep my dogs separate to eat, they eat slower and don't "punch" at the bowl to get all their food because of the risk of it being stolen by a close, hungry neighbor. 
OK so now that my little rant is over about the how's and why's of my feeding schedule, I'll continue to read the thread


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Probably a waste of time, IMO.


Not always, thankfully  My holistic vet is a serious believer in a raw diet, and people who are interested can talk to her to learn how to feed it right. If they're not sure about feeding raw, she doesn't push it, but carries some nice brands of dry and canned food (TOTW, etc). If the owners are feeding crap, she tries to at least get them to switch foods to a decent brand.
I had some questions about meat/bone ratio when I was feeding raw, and talked to her on the phone for a good 20 minutes and she happily answered all my questions. 
FTR, Dudes teeth were NASTY about 2 years ago; that's when I switched him to raw. After about a month, all the tarter crap simply flaked off with my fingernail. At almost 9 years old, his teeth are still sparkly, and he's never had a dental


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

HersheyPup said:


> Let me start out by saying that I do believe dogs are carnivores. However, I do think that they can digest properly processed vegetables, fruits and grains. There are dogs that live long lives on vegetarian diets and that would not be possible if the only food that a dog can actually utilize is from an animal source.
> 
> Of course, some dogs, like one of mine, just LOVE vegetables! Hershey will freak out when I am making a salad. She munches a lettuce leaf like a rabbit and thoroughly enjoys cucumbers, red bell peppers, carrots, radishes or any other veggie that I give her. I know she doesn't digest carrots very well, because I see them the next day in the yard! But, she sure loves her veggies.


Oh mine do, too  We have a thing called the "veggie slop dance", where 2 papillons and a GSD are prancing around the kitchen, lol. It's probably not a necessary thing to feed them, but they seem to love it so much I figure WTH, why not 
I give my dogs whole green beans and lettuce leaves, too. No real value to it, but they seem to love shredding them and leaving millions of pieces on the rug for me to clean up


----------



## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> .... people who research the diet and do what they're supposed to do have gorgeous, healthy dogs with energy to burn...



I joke with my husband all the time about this...saying maybe if we switch Maggie back to kibble she wont have as much energy as she does...cause who in their right mind would give a JRT something to give them more energy LOL...of course we wont switch but it gets joked about all the time.


----------



## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Probably a waste of time, IMO.


Oh, I know...I'm just curious to get his opinion. Maybe I'll put something on their FB page. That ought to get a whole bunch of responses...I sometimes LOVE to cause a stir...


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Keechak said:


> The most complete scientific biological consensus I have seen is that dogs and wolves are not TRUE carnivores. However they are also not as omnivorous as bears and humans.


That's a bit of a murky ground.

For instance, cats are more specifically Obligate Carnivores because they are incapable of producing their own taurine.

Dogs are capable of it. They are still carnivores, but not obligate carnivores. That is why they are capable of surviving in a wide variety of diets. Cats, however, could not.



> Let me start out by saying that I do believe dogs are carnivores. However, I do think that they can digest properly processed vegetables, fruits and grains. There are dogs that live long lives on vegetarian diets and that would not be possible if the only food that a dog can actually utilize is from an animal source.


Well yes, they can digest properly processed veggies. The point though, what makes it unnatural, is that you HAVE to process it for them to be able to digest it. They cannot digest it naturally. The dog that lived a long life on a vegetarian diet could be from a million things, and it's not confirmed either.

So it's kinda silly to feed a dog something that clearly is not a natural part of it's diet unless you do something unnatural like process it for them first.

That said, I'm mostly referring to a raw fed diet and raw vs veggies, not raw vs kibble. So I make no argument in that regard.


----------



## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

RBark, I'm still waitin on one of the docs from oncology to email me the papers about neutering, but, I do have a small collection of abstracts I think I can post up about grains and such and dogs' diets if you or anyone else is interested.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Any new information is good information.

Most "studies" linked are either clearly biased (such as studies by pet food companies) or inconclusive. That goes for raw fed diet people too, there really aren't any studies at all that I'm aware of that conclusively proves which diet is better, or if all diets are the same.

Either way, I have no objection to finding out anything contrary to what I believe in so long as it's for my dog's benefit. At the moment, most of my belief in dog food diet is grounded on the basis that they are carnivores. If it were to turn out I'm wrong, and it's better to add something else into the diet... all the better for our dogs.

But until any really compelling evidence arises, I'm hard-pressed to change what I believe. Aside from that, all I know is anecdotal data. All of my friend's dogs are dogs that most people say "look good" and they are all on Iams/Science Diet/and so on. Most people don't really know how a dog should look. Those dogs don't look good to me. Oily hair, excessive shedding, little muscle mass, a limited amount of energy, and so on. The dog's I've seen on 6 star foods look good to me. I saw this change in my own dogs, going from a 6 star food to a raw fed diet. Ollie went through a unbelievable transformation energy and health-wise.

But as with anything, that's anecdotal data, and because of the lack of scientific data, that is all I can go on. If someone came out with a solid study that there is, in fact, no difference between Science Diet, Solid Gold, and Raw fed... then I'd be interested in knowing that.


----------



## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

Keechak said:


> The most complete scientific biological consensus I have seen is that dogs and wolves are not TRUE carnivores. However they are also not as omnivorous as bears and humans.


Completely agreed. Even the holistic vet that I go to who is a strong proponent of the raw diet implied that dog are omnivores. 

The best description for domestic dogs I think are that they are *non-obligate carnivores with opportunistic omnivorous tendencies*. 

They are designed to first and foremost eat meat and when in case emergencies, they can then process grains and vegetables. Dogs have no need for carbohydrates and cannot fully utilize them because they have insufficient digestive enzymes to do so. Carbs are empty calories to a dog. 

If you are not feeding your dog tripe or intestines then a small amount of vegetable matter may be useful. I have also read books that say that if you are feeding a lot of food where there may be questionable chemicals involved (factory-farmed animals have a higher percentage of lead and arsenic in their systems) then vegetables can act as an antioxidant to cleanse the system. But again, in small amounts is sufficient. 

I occasionally feed grains to my dog because he cannot put on weight on a meat-based diet alone. But I do not believe grains have any benefits to a dog other than to provide calories. 

A 20-30% meat diet is suitable for humans, not dogs.

BTW, if you ever need to convince your vet that dogs are carnivores with opportunistic omnivorous tendencies, print this out and fax it over: http://aspenbloompetcare.com/2009/07/dogs-the-omnivore-carnivore-controversy.htm


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Mr. V said:


> RBark, I'm still waitin on one of the docs from oncology to email me the papers about neutering, but, I do have a small collection of abstracts I think I can post up about grains and such and dogs' diets if you or anyone else is interested.


I would like to see the studies on grains! Please post them up  Thanks.


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Okay so I read on a thread here that some people supplement a raw diet with something like Nature's Variety to get, well, variety. I went to the Nature's Variety website and entered my zip code to see if anyone sold it close to me. I was shocked to find there was a little pet store not far away that I didn't know even existed. (Apparently after her store was okayed and she bought the property and was ready to open her store, the town told her she couldn't have a sign out front. Now everyone finds out about her by word of mouth.) She believes in raw and sells the raw-type foods (no grains at least) and works with a lot of people who have pets with allergies. Nice little store. So for some variety I bought some Nature's Variety Raw Frozen Rabbit Medallions and also Venison patties. She also sold something called Stella and Chewy's and had a variety called Duck Duck Goose. The ingredients look good (price didn't though ). I bought the 3 lb bag of rabbit medallions and the 6 lb bags of the venison patties and duck duck goose patties (it came to $75 ). Flash is going nuts over the rabbit, even frozen solid. Haven't tried the others but I figured I would use these every once in a while for variety. They have veggies in them too but the makeup looks wholesome and healthy with actual meat and bone ground up. I wouldn't bother with the chicken or beef as I can get that whole at the grocery store. This is just for some variety.

BTW, I wanted to mention that my vet said that the proof that dogs are omnivores is because his dog will pick berries off the bushes out back of his house and he believes wolves forage for grass, berries, etc too. If that's the case, my dog needs electric cords, stuffed animals, and wood chips in her diet because I have seen her try to eat them.


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

dieterherzog said:


> BTW, if you ever need to convince your vet that dogs are carnivores with opportunistic omnivorous tendencies, print this out and fax it over: http://aspenbloompetcare.com/2009/07/dogs-the-omnivore-carnivore-controversy.htm


Thanks dieterherzog! I think I will send this to him to read before we meet again!

Also I would like to mention that I asked the lady at that little pet store if any vets in the area are more accepting of raw diets and she said mine is the most open-minded, so switching vets isn't going to get me anywhere I guess. She said part of the problem is people who feed raw without researching as was mentioned above. One woman fed her dog a plate of whatever they were having for dinner (no bones ever) and ended up taking her dog to the vet because it whined all the time. Turned out it had a severe calcium deficiency and had dozens of bone fractures because of this.  Stupid people mess everything up.


----------



## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I've seen some people royally butcher (no pun intended ) the raw diet. They don't research, they don't learn, and they make it harder than it really is. One woman who boarded her dog eons ago told us her dog was on a specific diet, a "whole foods" diet. We figured it was homecooked or raw. HER idea of a "whole foods diet" was a bowl of cereal (cornflakes and fruit loops, if I recall correctly), topped with a whole can of corn or a whole can of green beans. The meat was hotdogs, bologna, and/or processed lunchmeat that even *I* wouldn't eat. YUCK. Her dog reeked, even after a bath.


*That is disgusting!* I've never heard of anyone feeding their dog this way...how horrible.


----------



## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

Mr. V said:


> RBark, I'm still waitin on one of the docs from oncology to email me the papers about neutering, but, I do have a small collection of abstracts I think I can post up about grains and such and dogs' diets if you or anyone else is interested.



I am interested, too!


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

FlashTheRottwuggle said:


> Okay so I read on a thread here that some people supplement a raw diet with something like Nature's Variety to get, well, variety. I went to the Nature's Variety website and entered my zip code to see if anyone sold it close to me. I was shocked to find there was a little pet store not far away that I didn't know even existed. (Apparently after her store was okayed and she bought the property and was ready to open her store, the town told her she couldn't have a sign out front. Now everyone finds out about her by word of mouth.) She believes in raw and sells the raw-type foods (no grains at least) and works with a lot of people who have pets with allergies. Nice little store. So for some variety I bought some Nature's Variety Raw Frozen Rabbit Medallions and also Venison patties. She also sold something called Stella and Chewy's and had a variety called Duck Duck Goose. The ingredients look good (price didn't though ). I bought the 3 lb bag of rabbit medallions and the 6 lb bags of the venison patties and duck duck goose patties (it came to $75 ). Flash is going nuts over the rabbit, even frozen solid. Haven't tried the others but I figured I would use these every once in a while for variety. They have veggies in them too but the makeup looks wholesome and healthy with actual meat and bone ground up. I wouldn't bother with the chicken or beef as I can get that whole at the grocery store. This is just for some variety.
> 
> BTW, I wanted to mention that my vet said that the proof that dogs are omnivores is because his dog will pick berries off the bushes out back of his house and he believes wolves forage for grass, berries, etc too. If that's the case, my dog needs electric cords, stuffed animals, and wood chips in her diet because I have seen her try to eat them.


I don't know if you know this already.. but I thought I'd just tell you in case... NV's rabbit meats are imported from China. It's their only meat that's imported, the rest are American. It's the main reason why I don't buy their rabbit based foods (including their kibble).. Just a heads up.


----------



## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

JUST A FYI.......Natures Variety currently has recalls on their chicken products right now too. I believe somebody posted something about it in the foods section.

I have yet to try NV products (their raw anyway) and I don't think I will now knowing what I do. Products like that would be just as easy to make at home if you wanted something convenient. You could make your own patties, which is something we are considering for traveling purposes.


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Nallah06 said:


> JUST A FYI.......Natures Variety currently has recalls on their chicken products right now too. I believe somebody posted something about it in the foods section.
> 
> I have yet to try NV products (their raw anyway) and I don't think I will now knowing what I do. Products like that would be just as easy to make at home if you wanted something convenient. You could make your own patties, which is something we are considering for traveling purposes.


I wasn't even considering buying the chicken or beef anyway. The reason I am even trying them is for variety (venison, rabbit, duck, goose, bison) which I can't get (so I couldn't make them myself). At their cost, I probably won't buy them alot, just once in a while. Otherwise Flash is doing fine on the chicken and beef I already have and can get.


----------



## JLWillow (Jul 21, 2009)

This doesn't really have to do with raw diet, but just diet and vet clashing in general. Willow has been having frequent UTI's, and with not much of an explanation, she's put on a special diet. I ask if her diet is causing her UTI's, and I don't get an answer. I feel left in the dark with what's going on with her. 

I'm going to the vet on Tuesday, so hopefully everything will be sorted out.


----------



## Jordan S (Nov 21, 2009)

It seems odd that he would endorse terrific feeds like EVO and Orijen yet be totally opposed to raw.... very weird


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Jordan S said:


> It seems odd that he would endorse terrific feeds like EVO and Orijen yet be totally opposed to raw.... very weird


I know. When I saw that rack of food in the office I thought it would go over better than it did. He's a great vet, I just wish he'd put a little time and thought into nutrition. I was quite surprised at some of his statements and objections.

Just a note...I find it funny that I get a FREE bag of Orijen and my pup won't even touch it. I tried to give it to her tonight at dinner when she acted like she was famished. She looked at me like I was insane, walked to the frig, and sat there staring at it.


----------



## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

if I am not mistaken a long time ago when shelties were "toonie dogs" and lived on the shetland islands they pretty well ate nothing but potatoes! 

I am not sure what I think about dogs being strictly carnivore or not. I chose to feed mine mostly meat 70% and then veggies, fruits, and VERY limited whole grains.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I think back in the day dogs were also mostly outside and did a lot of hunting on their own. People food was probably done for bonding as well as nutrition.


----------



## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Here is what my vet clinic had to say on FB:

"_There are some people that swear by RAW diets, but it is something you need to be very careful with. The risk of bacterial infections is much greater in animals fed raw, including infections with E. coli and Salmonella. Some animals may do well on a RAW diet, but many will end up with bloody diarrhea and other issues. Preparation must be meticulous to lessen the impact of infection. Some clients can handle the more labor-intensive requirements of a RAW diet, and others would prefer to feed an equally healthy and more convenient diet. We are more than happy to speak with any client about their concerns with their pet's nutritional needs._" 

Redyre, what do you think of this response. Non-committal but I may ask in person when I next have to see them. IMO, what they had to say makes sense. Just because you are feeding a dog, doesn't mean you shouldn't take precautions. 

Personally, I don't think I am up for it. I don't feed mine the premium food but they are doing great on the kibble they are getting.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

The E.Coli and Salmonella thing is a common misconception.

Dogs digest raw food in a matter of hours. Raw food doesn't sit in a dog's stomach nearly long enough for them to get sick from those things.

I'm not sure what they mean by preparation must be meticulous. Raw food for me is basically, grab it out of the fridge, toss it in the backyard, let them eat it. It doesn't get much more simple than that.

Bloody stools is more often from the people who boil or cook the dog's food. You're not supposed to do that.

Diarrahea means too much meat not enough bone.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

alphadoginthehouse, I say Feh.....

Malarky.

Etc.



My dogs love nothing more than meat that is so far off I have to hold the bag at arms length to drop it on the ground for them. The higher it is the better they like it.

I stopped giving pork feet because they would all bury them for several days, then dig them up, eat them, and come burp in my face. (yeah BABY, that was awesome....LOL)

Now, care DOES need to be taken with ground meats. Bacteria can be put inside the ground meat that is normally on the outside and can only reproduce so much. Put this same bacteria inside ground meat and let it get warm enough for long enough, and it can get to a point that it can cause any dog an issue, sometimes very serious issues.

However, ground meat does not happen in the wild. We must keep mother nature in mind when constructing a healthy diet for our canine friends.

This is my (strictly anecdotal) evidence after about 17 years feeding raw.


----------



## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Thanks Red. I value your opinion. But I can honestly say I will not be feeding RAW any time soon. Not only and I lazy (yep, I admit it) I don't think I could stand the sight (or sound) of them my dogs eating raw meat.


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

awww, you wimp. 

You grow to love that slurping and bone crunching after a while.


----------



## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Yep, and not going to happen...


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> The E.Coli and Salmonella thing is a common misconception.
> 
> Dogs digest raw food in a matter of hours. Raw food doesn't sit in a dog's stomach nearly long enough for them to get sick from those things.
> 
> ...


That's how I fed raw, too. I took ahold of it with tongs, walked to the back door, and flung it into the yard for Auz, lol!


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> awww, you wimp.
> 
> You grow to love that slurping and bone crunching after a while.


I never got into the sound, but I used to love watching Auz go through a chicken quarter. WOW. The bone crunching I could do without, and the bloody snow was something I could do without too (even though it wasn't THAT bloody...)


----------



## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I never got into the sound, but I used to love watching Auz go through a chicken quarter. WOW. The bone crunching I could do without, and the bloody snow was something I could do without too (even though it wasn't THAT bloody...)


I love to listen to the bone crunching. It just sounds so...natural!  It used to drive me nuts with my previous 2 dogs listening to them crunch all that dry kibble. Made my jaws and teeth ache! Besides, the bone crunching means she is taking her time eating and not just gulping.


----------



## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

FlashTheRottwuggle said:


> I love to listen to the bone crunching. It just sounds so...natural!  It used to drive me nuts with my previous 2 dogs listening to them crunch all that dry kibble. Made my jaws and teeth ache! Besides, the bone crunching means she is taking her time eating and not just gulping.


It's a common misconception.

"chewing" food is a human thing, or at least, a primarily omnivore/herbivore thing.

Dogs teeth are not designed for chewing. They simply tear chunks off and swallow them. That's why they just inhale kibble. Nothing to tear off, and they don't need to chew.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> My dogs love nothing more than meat that is so far off I have to hold the bag at arms length to drop it on the ground for them. The higher it is the better they like it.


Ick, eww, high beef. Ya know some PEOPLE eat that? Ugh. Yeah, my dogs like chicken quarters that have started to turn a bit. I once had some ground beef that wasn't smelling too good but I didn't give it to them because of what I've read about ground meats. If it was a whole cut they would have gotten it. 


FlashTheRottwuggle said:


> Besides, the bone crunching means she is taking her time eating and not just gulping.


Hehe, mine just crunch the chicken quarter enough so they can swallow it. Scary to watch but I guess it works for them.


----------



## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

misty073 said:


> When I feed my dog carrots (or other veggies for that matter) as a treat she poops out chewed bits...if she was meant to eat them she would be able to digest them. I do feed pureed veggies sometimes but not every meal.


My two-and-a-half-year-old daughter is like this - she can't digest carrots or corn. Maybe she's a carnivore too hehe 

That's great, that you can be relieved and discuss nutrition with your vet too now. I remember it was hard to talk to a pediatrician who wouldn't support breastfeeding. 

All the best to the OP and Flash! It's not easy going against the norm, I know.


----------



## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

sagira said:


> It's not easy going against the norm, I know.


Tell me about it, the norm around here for dog food is crap kibble and a lot of it.

my aunt told me that feeding raw would give my dog scabies  yet her coat and skin is better than ever.


----------

