# Pinning or Dominating your dog as a means of discipline?...



## Stitch

I've seen this on "The Dog Whisperer" and my neighbor swears by it. It's when you grab the skin on the back of a dogs neck and pin him or her on their side with the other hand placed firmly near their neck and wait for them to "Submit". I've been using this method for a way to discipling my dog Chewie (4 months old), who's a Bullador (Lab/Eng bulldog hybrid). 

For example: when Chewie doesn't respond to my callback command, I calmly walk over to him and then I pin him down and say firmly (without yelling) "Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come". In fact, I do this anytime he doesn't respond to any of my commands, as well as when he jumps or play bites my kids and when he chews on things he is not supposed to. 

Does anyone else do this? It seems to work, but I want to know if I'm on the right track. For the most part I use positive reinforcement, like luring him with a treat, and then rewarding him ONLY when he does what I ask him to do. However, when that doesn't work, I resort to the "Pinning" method.

Thoughts?...

Thanks in advance!!!


----------



## MegaMuttMom

Cesar doesn't pin every time a dog doesn't listen to a command!!!!!!! Why, oh why do you not work harder on positive methods?????? This is a case where a little misguided information can go drastically wrong


----------



## Stitch

MegaMuttMom said:


> Cesar doesn't pin every time a dog doesn't listen to a command!!!!!!! Why, oh why do you not work harder on positive methods?????? This is a case where a little misguided information can go drastically wrong





Stitch said:


> For the most part I use positive reinforcement


I guess I should have specified that I ONLY use the "Pinning" method as a last resort. But what do you do when Luring doesn't work?...


----------



## Curbside Prophet

Cesar's show comes with a caveat with good reason. http://www.4pawsu.com/alpharoll.pdf


----------



## Shaina

Personally, positive reinforcement has worked best, via the NILIF method. Using dominating/pinning as a training technique can really backfire, and you may end up with an underconfident or aggressive dog.

I would recommend seeking a professional trainer using positive training methods and attending their puppy classes: that way you gain some professional advice and your puppy gets a chance to socialize with other puppies around his age. It would probably teach both of you a great deal, help you bond, and get you started on the right track.

CP - Thanks for the alpha roll link -- that was an interesting read


----------



## Curbside Prophet

Stitch said:


> But what do you do when Luring doesn't work?...


Either reduce the number of distractions in the environment, or use a higher motivator.


----------



## nlkeple

I am in no way an authority on training dogs. But they way I taught my last dog to come and the way I am working with Lady right now is that I put some sort of smelly treats in my pocket (Lady likes Bil-Jac treats) she ONLY gets those treats when we are working on training for all the time treats she gets carrots, and Jester well, he liked EVERYTHING. Anyways we would be in the yard and I would call, when they look at me, I run away. I'm sure they exist but I have never meet a dog that won't chase a person with smelly treats when they get to me I give them a treat. Jester learned pretty quickly that if he came right away he would get something tasty. 

I also think that I have read somewhere that some dogs feel more inclined to come if you squat down to their level but I can't say that for sure.

As for the Alpha thing, I personally believe there is a place for being the dominant figure, but in my opinion (just my opinion so weigh it however you want to) a better way to establish this is with NILIF. Remember there is a fine line between being dominant and being domineering (not saying this is how you behave just saying be careful because it is a fine line)


----------



## Lonewolfblue

Pinning a dog should very seldomly be used, and should only be used at the instant a bad behaviour occurs. What you did when he didn't come, you pinned him, and in his head, you pinned him for you just walking up to him. Not good. Pinning is only used, in my opinion, for aggressive dogs on a leash, where the dog lunges at another dog or person and you immediately pin him, as what Cesar does. But other disciplines should be tried first before resorting to pinning.

Also, a dog does not understand ""Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come"." Dogs are not human beings. They don't use the kind of thinking we do. A dogs thinking is very simple, and at the moment. So if you are telling the dog to come, and he doesn't come, then you shouldn't use the command any more until you can further train him with the command. If you keep repeating a command, and they don't listen, they then know they can get away with it. Start with the dog on a 15ft lead, and practice Come. Start at a short distance, then further. And don't repeat the command more than once. Make him do it. It will sink in, and you should then have a dog that will almost always Come when called, unless there's a distraction that overcomes the Come. You can then start enforcing the Come with distractions at that point.


----------



## lovemygreys

I do believe a dog should be submissive to a human - a recognition of the humans status as higher in the pack. I live with a pack of dogs - there IS a heirarchy there whether people want to acknowledge it or not. HOWEVER - I would *NEVER* physically roll a dog. If I have to use force, then I have no influence...and that's really what being a leader is. Soliciting a submissive posture from a dog should ONLY be done in specific circumstances as an 'ultimate' sort of correction....and the dog should really never be physically placed in the submissive position. It should be offered as an appeasement and acknowledgement of the status of a higher ranking dog/human. In the lifespan of *most* pet dogs, it would never be warranted.


----------



## Anela

I used this on my Lab/Shepard that I rescued 16 years ago. She was a mess, abused and escaped from her human and was forced to become the Alpha. This technique did work for her and another dog, a Lab/Weimaraner. My third a Lab/Terrier didn't need it, because she is very submissive.

Last April, I rescued a Shepard/Hound at 4 months. She is very submissive but I had horrible behavior issues with her that really took me about 6 months to unravel. This pinning technique was a huge mistake to use on her. She started to do submissive peeing, and I also had to deal with new issues the technique developed.

I would say to tread very carefully when using this technique. You may find yourself dealing with new problems it creates. I have also heard that some people have been severely bitten in the face when doing this in the beginning because the dog is simply frightened and get's defensive.

Anela


----------



## lovemygreys

I should add...I don't think you are using it appropriately. It's not an every-day training technique....Most dogs respond much more favorably to positive reinforcement and it will go a long way to building a relationship of trust and respect between you and your dog. Trust me - your dog has no idea you are saying ""Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come" - He hears: "Chewie.....blahblahblahblahblah". If he knows what "come" means then he may hear "Chewie, blahblahblah come blah come" and then experiences a physcial manipulation from you which puts him in a submissive position. There is no point or value in what you are doing other than to bully your dog.

Look up some positive training techniques for teaching recall. Ask yourself, if he truly understands what the command maens and -if he does - why is he choosing not to come to you? Perhaps because not coming is a whole lot funner than coming...Perhaps because being near you results in (from his POV) unpredicatable aggressive behavior (you pinning him for 'no good reason.). Also, consider that he's only four months old. He's still a baby. He's shouldn't be expected to have perfect obedience.


----------



## ZensMom

My german shepherd has been learning recall for a couple of months now  Sometimes we turn in into a hide and seek game and we yell "find me" and he gets a HUGE jackpot reward for that. Othertimes, when we're working straight recall, we'll go to the dog park and zig zag down the strip of land calling him. If he responds right away he gets rewarded. If he doesn't respond the first time, I step closer to him and give him the command. Usually he'll respond the second time. If he's very distracted and does not respond the second time, I will walk up to him, I take his collar on both sides and I say "Zen, come" while walking backward and pulling him towards me. I then ask him to sit while I have his attention, because when we recall we have him to the point where he goes into a sit upon arrival. After he has calmed down from his distraction I release him from his sit and reward and allow him to go back to playtime. Its worked out well for us.


----------



## poodleholic

> For example: when Chewie doesn't respond to my callback command, I calmly walk over to him and then I pin him down and say firmly (without yelling) "Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come". In fact, I do this anytime he doesn't respond to any of my commands, as well as when he jumps or play bites my kids and when he chews on things he is not supposed to.


You're punishing your dog when you have failed in your training method to teach your dog to come when you call him! Your dog doesn't speak or understand English, so it's your job to teach him what you want him to do. What you're doing is so unfair to your dog, and sets him up to fail. All you're teaching your dog is that you are unpredictable and possibly dangerous. Your behavior is confusing to your dog, and one day, he just may take your face off. 

If your dog isn't responding to what you've asked him to do, then you have failed to teach him so that he understands what you're asking him to do. Do you really believe that your dog understands one word of "Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come?" I think not. 

Most pet owners do not understand dog behavior, nor have a clue about learning theory, so there's no shame in having failed to train their dog, however, it's the pet owner's duty to learn how to effectively train their dog in a humane manner. Just because you don't actually physically harm your dog when pinning him, you *are* still inflicting damage - psychological damage that will undermine all your training efforts, and, certainly, your relationship with your dog. 

Since you watch Cesar Milan's show and use his (barbaric and old school, 30 years behind the times) techniques, try watching "It's Me or The Dog." The trainer, Victoria, is a no-nonsense, tell-it-like-it-is trainer, using positive training methods with excellent results. You may prefer CM's personality, but keep an open mind, and then decide for yourself which method is effective, and good for both the dog and handler.


----------



## ghosthunterbecki

I was convinced, through testimonials and through the show and website, to work with CM's techniques with our dog. And they may have worked, if the issue that we were dealing with was dominance from our dog -- it wasn't. The issue was one of lack of training and lack of confidence in our dog -- the alpha roll was never going to work for him, because it *damaged* his self-confidence and therefore caused a terrible backslide in his behavior that we are still working to correct.

Thankfully, I came here.

The article that CP linked said something that interested me, about teaching your dog "down." We "down" Dozer when he needs to calm down in a situation, or we require him to "submit" in the moment. Typically the set of commands I use are "here" and "down." Here means that I want him in a very specific place (this isn't recall, he's already near me when I give the command). He goes to where I've pointed, and he lays down. And yes, we're consistent with this. I don't want to fix something that isn't broken 

The command (down) also works at a distance and is effective to let him know when he's done something that displeases us. From there we can pick up the pieces and begin work with whatever problem currently needs fixing. 

I'd rather my dog not fear me, or see me as "dominant." Being a leader doesn't necessarily mean being "dominant."


----------



## lovemygreys

ghosthunterbecki said:


> I'd rather my dog not fear me, or see me as "dominant." Being a leader doesn't necessarily mean being "dominant."


dominant = ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence

I certainly hope my dogs see me as dominant, or our pack would be in big trouble! Dominant has become a "dirty little word" in dog training, but dominant is exactly how your dog needs to see you....you don't have to get there by brute force which is how some people view dominance...something acquired only by force. In fact, the opposite is true...the best of all possible worlds is when the dog willingly submits to your dominant position (read:the best of all possible worlds is when the dog willingly submits to your influence).

I'd argue that you can't be a leader without dominance.


----------



## RonE

I'm not at all sure what Esther would do if I tried to pin her to the ground as a show of "leadership." I'm not even sure I could. I would, at the very least, be putting our good relationship at risk. At worst, I could be risking great bodily harm to myself.

She does what I want her to because it pleases her to please me. It seems so simple. I don't understand why that concept is so elusive.


----------



## Anela

I agree that it is important for dogs to see their humans as the dominant figure (I call it Alpha, some don't). This doesn’t mean that they should fear you. None of my dogs fear me for any reason. They do know when I am upset because of their mischief which is completely different.

My three large females all know that I am the one in charge, under me there is a pack order. I want and deserve their respect and protection, and they in turn have the same from me and all of the things that go along with their life of rags to riches existence.  

When I got my first dog 16 years ago, a trainer told me to had feed the dog, then practice putting my hand in the bowl when she ate her food. This progressed to my being able to take food out of her bowl when she ate, and a few seconds later give it back. All of my dogs allow me to do this. I don't do it often, just when I want to assert my dominance status.

Anela


----------



## Curbside Prophet

I think where people get confused about "dominance" is that they want to attribute "dominance" to their dog like it's a character trait. It's not. "Dominance", from it's origins in animal behavior, is a descriptor used in the ritualistic behavior between common animals, dog to dog, wolf to wolf, etc. Furthermore, being "dominant" is extremely inefficient for an animal, and most animals WANT to avoid being dominant at all costs. It's their nature to be efficiently selfish, as that's how it's written in their genes. 

It's not only wrong to assume an animal is "dominant", it's wrong to try and force this supposed character trait in a relationship with uncommon animals. Our dogs only have "x" amount of behaviors, and just because they exhibit a behavior that appears in the dog to dog relationship, does not mean it's a display of dominance in the dog to human relationship. It only means "x" behavior was exhibited in the given context. I contend that you can't understand the behavior if you've already assumed your dog to be "dominant." Look at the context, and look at your influence on the context (the environment). More times than not, it's us who NEEDS to change our behavior, not the dog. From this vantage point I'd say our dogs have the most influence.


----------



## lovemygreys

Sorry, Curb...but that's a bunch of bunk. Dominance isn't a trait. It is a state of being...a status of sorts. While, of course, dogs know there is a difference between humans and dogs, they absolutely can and will accept "uncommon animals" into their pack. They are wildly intelligent creatures that know how to take advantage of an advantageous situation - i.e. inviting a human into their "canine pack" and all the benefits that flow from that.

I do agree that usually it is the human who needs to change, simply b/c we tend to anthropomorphize our dogs while inflicting our own human judgements and standards onto their canine brain. I don't think that "coming down" to a dog's level in order to interact with them means the dog has more influence...it just means the human is smart enough to know the most effective way to communicate with the dog. We, in fact, use our knowledge of canine psychology to manipulate them into doing what we want them or don't want them to do. Too many people only see their dog through human eyes and do not consider things from the canine perspective.

I believe dogs are social animals...they are innately selfish in the same sense that humans are: self preservation. But, I believe most dogs prefer to live in a cooperative pack environment. Usually that would be "just dogs" but in the case of the domestic dog, they've entered into a partnership with man and that cooperative pack can include humans and dogs. Just like any co-operative group, there has to be order and a heirarchy. It may not be as evident, or even as necessary, in a one dog-one human situation...or even with a couple dogs and one or two humans. But, living with 14 dogs 24/7 I see a *clear* pack structure...there is no question there is an order to things. Too many new "animal behaviorists" are throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak, in an effort to bury any and all theories related to "Alphaness" or pack structure or dominance. In the end, I believe this fad will fade b/c at the end of the day I know what *I* see on a daily basis living with a pack of dogs. And a lot of this "new dog philosophy" is just bunk....or a way to sell books.


----------



## prolibertate

Stitch, CP and RonE said some excellent things and I hope you listen to them. What you're actually doing is teaching your dog to fear you when you come over to him. I personally wouldn't pin any dog for any reason, as it's an aggressive action, and aggression breeds aggression. I'd much rather work with a dog so that they *want* to do what's being asked of them, and we have a good relationship together. 

I don't understand when people say they want a 'submissive' dog; who wants a dog that does things because it fears you? I suspect that most people when they say this mean they want a dog who listens to them and does what's asked of them. Positive training methods accomplish that, and they do it quickly and in a manner that the dog enjoys, and which make him want to learn...and who doesn't want a dog who looks forward to their training sessions, rather than one who dreads them?

You have a 4 month old dog who should be taken to a clicker puppy class; that will teach you how to train him well and quickly using a positive traning method. At 4 months, he's just coming out of his critical period and so far a lot of what he's learned sounds like fear. At 6 months he'll have another critical period, and it's one where they can learn to fear new things; please don't introduce more of the current training methods you're using, as that will continue to set this dog up to possibly become fear aggressive.

As far as Cesar The Dog Whisperer, I personally don't like his methods, he's allegedly treating very aggressive dogs - not 4 month old puppies - and he doesn't have the training or experience that many people do in the dog training world. He even states to not use his methods at home - who knows whether that's because he doesn't want to lose out on making someone pay one of his people to work with one's dog, or because he knows his methods don't work (except for when he has them staged for his show)...He's not someone I'd want touching any dog I know, and I loathe that he has a show that people watch and then they innocently try his methods on their puppies and dogs. It's more than a disservice to the people and their animals, IMO; and it's a sad thing to see. Below are a couple links about his methods and other people's concerns.

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm
http://www.dogboston.com/askjo/cesarmillan.htm
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

Here's a link that talks about dog training on TV:
http://iaabc.org/articles/tv_training_CSmith.htm

Here's some books that will help you with your puppy:

The Dog Whisperer: A Compassionate, Nonviolent Approach to Dog Training by Paul Owens_ (this man was around long before Cesar, and has the degrees, training, and experience that Cesar doesn't)_

The Truth about Dogs: An Inquiry into Ancestry Social Conventions Mental Habits by Stephen Budiansky

Dogs: A New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution by Raymond Coppinger, Lorna Coppinger _(this book, and Budiansky's above, are excellent books on the history of dogs, and both delve into the many differences between dogs and wolves)_

The Intelligence of Dogs: A Guide to the Thoughts, Emotions, and Inner Lives of Our Canine Companions by Stanley Coren

How Dogs Think: What the World Looks Like to Them and Why They Act the Way They Do by Stanley Coren

How To Speak Dog: Mastering the Art of Dog-Human Communication by Stanley Coren 

Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog (Karen Pryor Clicker Book) by Emma Parsons 

Don't Shoot the Dog! by Karen Pryor

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Positive Dog Training, 2nd Edition (Complete Idiot's Guide to) by Pamela S. Dennison

Excel-Erated Learning: Explaining in Plain English How Dogs Learn and How Best to Teach Them by Pamela J. Reid 

IT'S ME OR THE DOG: HOW TO HAVE THE PERFECT PET by Victoria Stilwell 

Friends for Life by Fennell, Jan by Jan Fennell 

The Dog Listener: Learn How to Communicate with Your Dog for Willing Cooperation by Jan Fennell 

The Seven Ages of Man's Best Friend: A Comprehensive Guide for Caring for Your Dog Through All the Stages of Life by Jan Fennell 

For the Love of a Dog: Understanding Emotion in You and Your Best Friend by Patricia Phd Mcconnell 

The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell

How Dogs Learn (Howell Reference Books) by Mary R. Burch, Jon S., PhD. Bailey 

Bones Would Rain from the Sky: Deepening Our Relationships with Dogs by Suzanne Clothier 

Your Outta Control Puppy: How to Turn Your Precocious Pup Into a Perfect Pet by Teoti Anderson


----------



## MagicToller

In all fairness, I just wish people would follow _The Dog Whisperer _ show's request.

"Please consult a professional before attempting these techniques"


----------



## digits mama

If I was to ever pin my Dozer and try to teach him something in that manner..I would expect him to bite my face off.. Not that he ever would.

I mean, I know dogs are not human.. But if some one was to pin me down to show dominance they would get the same outcome that I expect from him.


----------



## Christen

Stitch said:


> I've seen this on "The Dog Whisperer" and my neighbor swears by it. It's when you grab the skin on the back of a dogs neck and pin him or her on their side with the other hand placed firmly near their neck and wait for them to "Submit". I've been using this method for a way to discipling my dog Chewie (4 months old), who's a Bullador (Lab/Eng bulldog hybrid).
> 
> For example: when Chewie doesn't respond to my callback command, I calmly walk over to him and then I pin him down and say firmly (without yelling) "Chewie, when I say "Come", you "Come". In fact, I do this anytime he doesn't respond to any of my commands, as well as when he jumps or play bites my kids and when he chews on things he is not supposed to.
> 
> Does anyone else do this? It seems to work, but I want to know if I'm on the right track. For the most part I use positive reinforcement, like luring him with a treat, and then rewarding him ONLY when he does what I ask him to do. However, when that doesn't work, I resort to the "Pinning" method.
> 
> Thoughts?...
> 
> Thanks in advance!!!


My two cents:

Has Chewie taken any dog training classes yet? I agree with what a lot of ppl here have said. It sounds like you're like me atm, need to go back to basics with your pup. With what you're describing with the come command, it sounds like your dog either a) doesn't understand that 'Come' means come; or b) he doesn't have the proper motivation to come to you in the first place. Try starting over from scratch, use some positive reinforcement (ie click and treat!), and remember that he's a puppy! He's not going to get everything right 100% of the time. I think you need to work more on training your dog properly rather than forcing him to submit and try not to get aggrevated when he gets it wrong! It's going to take time and positive reinforcement for him to become the dog you want.


----------



## Curbside Prophet

lovemygreys said:


> Sorry, Curb...but that's a bunch of bunk.


I must have missed what what you're calling "bunk", so let me break apart your statements. 



> Dominance isn't a trait.


Agreed.



> It is a state of being...a status of sorts. While, of course, dogs know there is a difference between humans and dogs, they absolutely can and will accept "uncommon animals" into their pack. They are wildly intelligent creatures that know how to take advantage of an advantageous situation - i.e. inviting a human into their "canine pack" and all the benefits that flow from that.


Agreed, to a point. Dogs by nature are social creatures, and they will do what is beneficial for them. That was one of my points. However, as a strategy, acting "dominant" is not an advantage...especially if injury or death can be the end result, nor is it the glue that holds packs together. I would not confuse the ritualistic behavior of animals, beneficial behaviors, with what IS dominance. I understand that you want to attribute the harmony in the relationship with how you define dominance, but, that would not be the correct use of dominance in academia. Dominance behavior is contextual, it occurs between any two animals in the pack. Dominance is the behavior between the two animals, not a definition of their "status", but rather a description of who the winner is in a given contest. 

Has it transcended into meaning something more than that? Absolutely. However, what it has transcended to is what I would call "bunk." If you're speaking of being a leader, why not call it "leadership?" 



> Just like any co-operative group, there has to be order and a hierarchy.


Not true IMO. Order, yes, hierarchy, no so much. I agree that it's important within a dyad for there to be order, harmony, in order for the relationship to be successful. All this means is the members within the dyad agree to win and or lose a given contest. Key word being they AGREE to win or lose. Do they agree because of dominance or because they are innately selfish? Maybe being submissive really is the key to success. Again, it depends on the context, and you would only state that an animal is dominate, when describing the winner of a single contest. It is not how they are as a being.

It does not, however, depend on a hierarchy. In fact, studies have shown that unless you're an unaltered male dog, around limited resources, you care very little about your "rank" within a hierarchy...as the hierarchy is anything but linear in a stable dog pack, and roles are always changing based on the context. 



> It may not be as evident, or even as necessary, in a one dog-one human situation...or even with a couple dogs and one or two humans. But, living with 14 dogs 24/7 I see a *clear* pack structure...there is no question there is an order to things.


This isn't a new argument either. And to those with this argument, I point to Dr. Frank Beach's work at U.C. Berkeley. Unless you're actively testing your hierarchy theory, what you may be witnessing is nothing more than the beauty of dog behavior, and occurrences unrelated to "dominance hierarchy". 



> Too many new "animal behaviorists" are throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak, in an effort to bury any and all theories related to "Alphaness" or pack structure or dominance. In the end, I believe this fad will fade b/c at the end of the day I know what *I* see on a daily basis living with a pack of dogs. And a lot of this "new dog philosophy" is just bunk....or a way to sell books.


An animal behaviorist job is to correlate behavior with the processes of thought. That's what they are suppose to do, apply the laws of learning theory. To evoke theories...theories derived from studies in ethology (with specific contexts, different than our own), or even outdated studies in ethology, would put a behaviorist out of their skill set, IMO. There's nothing new about the difference between ethologists and behaviorists view's on behavior, it's always been this way, and it will always be this way. Again, the "bunk" is found when someone exclaims, _dogs do this, so it must mean this, always! _To that I'm sure you would agree...perhaps not to how learning theory can exclude the validity of dominance theories in most, if not all contexts involving the dog to human relationship. Now if you were to argue that a submissive hierarchy would better describe our relationship to dogs, I would tend to agree. 

But what's wrong with innovation anyway? Why stop at the wheel?


----------



## Stitch

First I want to thank everyone for replying!!! That said, I will go with the majority and start from scratch (i.e. stick with the positive reinforcement). Moreover, I think I'll spread some of my new found knowledge about dominating to my neighbor!!!

Next, an update. So Chewie and I went for a walk last night in the park. Now whenever we go to the park, I let him off his leash (btw, should I be doing this?). Now the park is surrounded by houses, and the park and the backyards boarder each other. All is going well, and then we come to the trouble spot, which is a backyard that has 2 huskies. Well, Chewie runs over as usual, and I let him say "Hi" for a minute or 2. Then I called him in a very playful "Chewie, Come" manner. No response. So I took 2 steps toward him and said it again with a little more authority. Still no response. So I calmly walked over to him, and gently grabbed his collar and calmly pulled him toward me saying calmly "Chewie, Come". I then gave him the command to "Sit" and he did. I held his collar and pet him, all the while he kept trying to look back at the huskies. I waited patiantly until I thought he was calm. I then praised him and treated him. I then let him go, and he went right back over to the huskies. So I repeated this method 2 more times, showing patience all the way through. And guess what, the 3rd times was in fact a charm, and Chewie stayed with me the rest of the way!!! Needless to say, I praised the hell out of him for doing SO WELL! 

Someone suggested this method in the 1st or second page of the thread, and I think it yielded positive results! So thanks! And thanks to ALL of you!!!

Now as far as classes go, well I'm a full-time student, and my wife works during the day. Though She makes a good living, my financial contribution is the aid I get from school (along with the freelance copy writing I do on the side). So needless to say, I don't think we can afford this ATM. Well, with 3 kids to feed and all. BTW, are puppy classes expensive? The good news in all this is that someone is ALWAYS here with Chewie!!!


----------



## ghosthunterbecki

lovemygreys said:


> dominant = ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence


Allow me to rephrase. I'm having seriously strong contractions and was tired when I posted 

"I'd rather my dog not fear me, or see me as "dominant." Being a leader doesn't necessarily mean being 'domineering.'"

Does that work a bit better for you?

Personally I have found in my work with *my* dog, that exerting physical force with a certain degree of frequency gives the appearance of "domineering" him. He becomes depressed and begins to act out even more in an attempt to balance the scales. And he *isn't* a "dominant" dog.

Now I realized last night at some point that I've been working with dogs for nearly 20 years (training). I was responsible for the initial training of my parents' dog (I can't help it if my father re-trained him to be a bratty terror! -- I corrected his mistakes, he just didn't respect me enough to follow my example or advice). I've seen *many* different personalities in dogs during this period of time, and I've seen different needs from said dogs.

Do some dogs require physical "force" in obedience training? I think so. It's a very long process to "catch" the good behavior and reinforce it every time with a command. At some point, in good training, one is going to *have* to put the dog into the position they want and then reinforce the behavior that way. Yes, this *is* physical "force."

I will argue though that sometimes leadership is exhibited through example. Again, depending on the dog, I can teach *my* dog calm behavior by being calm around him, as he feeds off my energy (same goes for my child, when s/he comes, too). I use different techniques on the cats, but the calm energy, that leadership energy, does work with them as well. It's an almost universal principle in training.

If you choose to use the Alpha Roll, that's your choice to do so. If you've had good results with it, who am I to argue? I can only speak from my own experience that it has *not* worked with Dozer.


----------



## nlkeple

Stitch said:


> BTW, are puppy classes expensive? The good news in all this is that someone is ALWAYS here with Chewie!!!


I'm a full time student and my husband and I trade of out kids so that he can work and I can go to school so I am in the same boat as you. 

I do not know how much things cost in your area but our Vet office offers obedience classes $100 for 8 weeks. Lady starts at the beginning of the year. Of course I can't speculate about your situation but in my experience if you can at all afford it, it is worth it.

If you can't afford them, i have noticed that there seems to be a wealth of information on here.


----------



## ghosthunterbecki

IMO, there are advantages to doing puppy classes just as there are advantages to training your dog yourself. Socialization is *very* important, especially for very young dogs. Thankfully we managed that for Dozer (with other dogs and with cats) without ever taking him to a single puppy class. We manage to work with him at home using the natural distractions of the family (my "pregnant smell," the cats, the TV, etc) whereas at a pet store, he'd have less exposure to things like our cats, pet rats, and our Savannah Monitor.

On the other hand, I trained my first dog when I was barely nine years old. Yes, I took him to a puppy class. The class was a huge help, though in retrospect I don't much like the methods that they used (dragging dogs around by choke chains, much of the time). The key is to find a class that fits in with your personal philosophies on puppy-rearing and training. If you don't agree with the trainer, you're not going to have as much success, IMO. But of course keep your mind open and be willing to learn.

If you've not trained a dog before, I think that the cost is definitely worth it. And if you have a "problem dog" the cost of a behaviorist could just wind up saving your dog's life.


----------



## Dogstar

I think a puppy class is worth the money even if you HAVE trained dogs before. 

They're socialization- even without interaction, they're a good way to habituate your pup to a busy, chaotic environment with minimal danger from aggressive dogs. They're a way to encourage YOU to keep up on the training and not slack off, because there's a schedule and someone to poke you and remind you "Hey, did you practice last week?" and social/peer pressure to DO it.


----------



## Lonewolfblue

lovemygreys said:


> dominant = ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence


Not always true. When they talk about dominance in terms of dogs, here's a quote what I wrote in another thread. Some take the term dominance literally, and try to quote the dictionary. But there is another view of dominance you won't find there. Hope this makes it clear.



Lonewolfblue said:


> But you do have to dominate, even with your kids. To dominate doesn't mean being cruel, abusive, or always have to be in control. In the dog's sense, and with kids as well, to dominate means to stand tall. Be a good roll model. And most of all, have confidence in yourself and have a positive attitude. Now would you be a good roll model if you let your kids run all over you? And how would they end up in society? Probably not very good. Same with dogs. You have to have that Positive energy, and not weak energy. They pick up on that right away.
> 
> Now here's a good exercise for you. Look at what you do with your kids (if you have any), and your dogs today. Take a look at what you are doing right. That's the type of dominance you need to have. Not the type that you have to dominate over another person or dog, and rule over them. The type of dominance you want to have is one where you can have that companionship, and the one where the dog will be a great part of not only your life, but out in society as well.


So, there you have it. 



Stitch said:


> First I want to thank everyone for replying!!! That said, I will go with the majority and start from scratch (i.e. stick with the positive reinforcement). Moreover, I think I'll spread some of my new found knowledge about dominating to my neighbor!!!
> 
> Next, an update. So Chewie and I went for a walk last night in the park. Now whenever we go to the park, I let him off his leash (btw, should I be doing this?). Now the park is surrounded by houses, and the park and the backyards boarder each other. All is going well, and then we come to the trouble spot, which is a backyard that has 2 huskies. Well, Chewie runs over as usual, and I let him say "Hi" for a minute or 2. Then I called him in a very playful "Chewie, Come" manner. No response. So I took 2 steps toward him and said it again with a little more authority. Still no response. So I calmly walked over to him, and gently grabbed his collar and calmly pulled him toward me saying calmly "Chewie, Come". I then gave him the command to "Sit" and he did. I held his collar and pet him, all the while he kept trying to look back at the huskies. I waited patiantly until I thought he was calm. I then praised him and treated him. I then let him go, and he went right back over to the huskies. So I repeated this method 2 more times, showing patience all the way through. And guess what, the 3rd times was in fact a charm, and Chewie stayed with me the rest of the way!!! Needless to say, I praised the hell out of him for doing SO WELL!
> 
> Someone suggested this method in the 1st or second page of the thread, and I think it yielded positive results! So thanks! And thanks to ALL of you!!!
> 
> Now as far as classes go, well I'm a full-time student, and my wife works during the day. Though She makes a good living, my financial contribution is the aid I get from school (along with the freelance copy writing I do on the side). So needless to say, I don't think we can afford this ATM. Well, with 3 kids to feed and all. BTW, are puppy classes expensive? The good news in all this is that someone is ALWAYS here with Chewie!!!




You sound like you are doing much better now, since you've started Positive Reinforcement. That's what works. You need to have that dominance that makes you shine in front of your dog, where he will want to make you happy, and be happy himself. And good job on that last walk.

As for taking off the leash, I personally don't recommend it. Depending where you are, there's a thing called liability. If your dog did something bad, as in biting a dog or a person you are fully liable for it. It's like me when I took my Betty for a walk, and got charged by 3 rotweilers where the owners were just letting them out off-leash, was really a scary moment for me, and Betty had to defend herself. Luckily I do have some experience, and knew what to do myself and what to look for, I found myself not to be threatened, and that allowed me to get my dog under control on the leash until the other dogs left. And no, the owners just stood on their porch and watched. I can guarantee that if that happens one more time, they will LOSE all their dogs, as well as have lawsuites to deal with. So, that being said, in my honest opinion, it's not good to let them off leash unless you are in a controlled area where you will know that there won't be any problems.


----------



## War

Cesar only uses the pin method to control aggressive dogs he does NOT use it to teach a dog to come in fact Cesar has stated over and over again that he is NOT a dog trainer but that he trains humans and rehabilitates dogs.
His methods are for dealing with behavior issues not to teach the dog any obedience commands.That being said my opinion is that there are other better ways to teach your dog to come without having to pin him down.
What I used on my own dog was lots of positive reneforcements I put a long lead on her and then gave her the command to come.If she didnt come right away I gave the leash a short tug,then repeated my command.I never called her for anything but praise and treats this way she understood that coming to me when I called her was a good thing.Now I have gotten her to the point where I can say to her Raven come and she will, come no matter what she is doing,not with a tail down and being submissive but with her tail held high and running towards me.You have to tailor the training based on the individual dog.What works for one dog may not work for another dog.I wish you luck with your dog


----------



## madkad

I havent pinned my dog as she seems to look at me as a pack leader in ways any way, as for pinning for commands this shouldnt be done as pack leaders dont give commands.

pinning is only used really for things that should be done like, alowing you to touch there food etc.

I have pinned a dog before and it does work but not for training commands, only for showing leader ship in the pack and it also shouldnt be used for being cruel.

it is good that you asked this question as I have a friend that doesnt understand why this is done


----------



## Lonewolfblue

War said:


> Cesar only uses the pin method to control aggressive dogs he does NOT use it to teach a dog to come in fact Cesar has stated over and over again that he is NOT a dog trainer but that he trains humans and rehabilitates dogs.
> His methods are for dealing with behavior issues not to teach the dog any obedience commands.That being said my opinion is that there are other better ways to teach your dog to come without having to pin him down.
> What I used on my own dog was lots of positive reneforcements I put a long lead on her and then gave her the command to come.If she didnt come right away I gave the leash a short tug,then repeated my command.I never called her for anything but praise and treats this way she understood that coming to me when I called her was a good thing.Now I have gotten her to the point where I can say to her Raven come and she will, come no matter what she is doing,not with a tail down and being submissive but with her tail held high and running towards me.You have to tailor the training based on the individual dog.What works for one dog may not work for another dog.I wish you luck with your dog


Exactly. And I do believe that he also stated that it should only be done by someone who not only knows what they are doing, but also as a last resort. Yes, Cesar has pinned dogs in his videos, but it was more of a last resort when he did. Several other times he would use his roller blades to tire out the dogs, and that would work. But for those Red Zone cases where all else fails, they get pinned, and pinned properly, not improperly. Doing it improperly will not only create more problems, but could even be detrimental to your life as well, especially with a much more powerful dog.


----------



## Lonewolfblue

Here's a video on what another person thinks of the Alpha Rollover. He's against it himself, and only feels the only time you should put your hands on your dog is to pet him, hug him, hold him, and to tell them what a great pup they are.

http://amazingdogtrainingman.com/videos/alpharollover.htm


----------



## prolibertate

madkad said:


> I havent pinned my dog as she seems to look at me as a pack leader in ways any way, as for pinning for commands this shouldnt be done as pack leaders dont give commands.
> pinning is only used really for things that should be done like, alowing you to touch there food etc.
> I have pinned a dog before and it does work but not for training commands, only for showing leader ship in the pack and it also shouldnt be used for being cruel.
> it is good that you asked this question as I have a friend that doesnt understand why this is done


Just curious, but where did you hear that pack leaders pin their 'subordinates' to show their leadership? If you're comparing it to wolves, they don't pin each other; a submissive wolf will lay on his back to the alpha - if the confrontation even gets that far...generally all it takes is a look or a lip snarl from the alpha to another wolf to get the other wolf to acknowledge the alpha as pack leader.

Also, why would one pin a dog so they can touch their food? If a dog is taught that all good things - such as food - come from their human, you can go touch their food anytime you want - even put your hand in the bowl in the middle of their eating and they won't care. Even food possessive dogs can be taught in a positive manner - with no pinning or anything like it involved - to let you near their food...it simply takes some time, patience and effort.

IMO, there are *very rare* instances where a dog may need to be pinned or restrained, and then it's more for his safety than anyone else's. unfortunately, pinning is a very old method of training and because too many people don't understand how dogs communicate, or don't bother to take the time to learn that, dogs get mislabeled as 'aggressive' and get pinned when it's not necessary, and I believe this only makes the dog fearful, which may cause them to bit due to fear-aggression.


----------



## Nicole The Reiki Master

MegaMuttMom said:


> Cesar doesn't pin every time a dog doesn't listen to a command!!!!!!! Why, oh why do you not work harder on positive methods?????? This is a case where a little misguided information can go drastically wrong


100% ! I’m both a certified animal behaviorist and animal communicator and this method could create some horrible problems . Could you imagine someone holding you down just be seen toy didn’t come to them quick enough when called? Sorry this isn’t a dog issue and sounds like an owner issue.


----------



## Lillith

This thread is over a decade old and few of the posters are active on the forum anymore. Please feel free to participate in current discussions or start your own thread.


----------

