# So I think my dog got a petsmart trainer fired.



## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

I work at Petsmart in the fish, small animal area and I enjoy working there for the free training classes but also 15% discount on food is nice. We also get to take home anything damage (a ripped bed a crate with a small dent, etc...) so it has its perks.

Anyhow, there are two dog trainers and rather than working together the one trainer is always personally attacking the other. Attacking her dogs, her training ability, her personality and even so petty as how she looks. When I first starting working there this other trainer told me she was unqualified, etc... to train my dog. I kept with her class anyway and found out it was all lies. She was just being petty and more or less was afraid this new trainer might perhaps be more experienced than she is.

Anyhow, everyone knows that I have a fear-agressive dog and she is doing quite well now with her issues. I bring her in the store now and then on my days off just to expose her to other dogs and get used to them. I have her on a head collar and a martingale just in case she slips the head collar. It's gotten to the point where she may bark but wont tug on the leash, wont bare teeth, etc... if I tell her "down" she will go down. In other words, I have her under my complete control at all times.

Well I was on an isle by myself trying to avoid too many dogs and someone turned the corner with theirs. My dog barked once or twice and immediately this trainer (that has never worked with my dog) came over rolled my dog on her back and held her down. I told her to get off my dog that I didn't think it was approperiate and she assured me that it was a standard practice in calming dogs down. It was the opposite. My dog bit her arm.

Another customer came over to me and told me that she should never alpha-roll a fear agressive dog. I had never heard the term before but I looked it up and it does not seem like something I'd ever do, or would want done to my dog. I wrote in a complaint and talked to my manager about it. 

The trainer i do go to talked to me last night during class and said she might be getting fired for it.

I just hope I wasn't wrong in what I did. I've worked so hard with my own techniques at getting my dog to where she is. The last thing I need is someone else freaking her out, or worse making her dislike and distrust humans.

Anyhow. I just wanted to rant more or less. She is still doing okay and the rest of the time in petsmart went just fine.


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## nlkeple (Sep 24, 2007)

I think you did the right thing by going to your manager. Personally I think that it is way out of line to discipline someone else's dog (under almost ALL circumstances), regardless of what technique she was using. It is also way out of line to tell someone who's dog she just disciplined that essentially she didn't care what you thought was appropriate regarding *your* dog.

I hate to sound mean but personally I hope she is fired!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The trainer hat alpha rolled you fear aggressive dog DESERVES to be fired and it's her fault she got bitten. Pet Smart emphasizes tht they use positive techniques for training, Alpha Rolling is JUST the opposite.  It will now take time to rehab your dog from a bad experiance.


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## Guest (Dec 14, 2007)

i'm sorry but if anyone came up and did that to my dog, who even isnt fear aggresive, i would tell them to get off my dog or I would threaten them with a lawsuit. No other human should be disciplining MY dog unless I GIVE THEM LEAVE TO DO SO.

Frankly, good ridence. If the other customer knew better, then for sure a trainer should have been. 

I just hope your dog will be able to recover from that horrid person.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I think it was awfully forward of her to think she could correct your dog in any way much less in a prehistoric method that will cause your dog more stress then it is worth.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Sounds like she might've gotten _herself_ fired...it amazes me that someone who's supposed to be a professional trainer pulled that kind of stunt on a (more or less) strange dog. Hopefully your dog doesn't suffer a setback over this


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## Kari's Mom (Dec 5, 2007)

I wouldn't feel to bad about it. I work at a retail store right now and if one of the trainers did that to my little boston I think I'd flip out on them. In some instances I could see taking control (I've helped customers properly use a gentle leader ) but only when asked. And a fear aggressive dog shouldn't ever be put in a situation to become more fearful and have to assert itself.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I can't believe they'd do something like that. I really don't promote dog violence but I think that trainer deserved to get bitten. If anyone did that to my dog I'd ram them to the ground and punch them a couple of times. Then I'd make sure my dog was ok.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Alpha rolling-never ever do it. Your always running the risk of exactly what your dog did-getting bit. I hope that trainer gets fired.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I used to work at Petsmart, and she most likely will get fired for completely going against the training Policies and Procedures. Petsmart trainers are ONLY allowed to use positive reinforcement training, and alpha-rolling is definitely NOT positive reinforcement, but punishment. They go through training themselves for this. I've heard of trainers losing their jobs for not going along with Petsmart's way of training. It's not your fault, but the trainer's, for not thinking before acting.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

I agree with the above posters. You have no reason to feel guilty for what you did - that trainer deserves to have her job stripped.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

She *should* be fired! Don't give it another thought; you did PetSmart a favor by alerting them to a potential lawsuit. Here in FL, a trainer employed by Petco alpha rolled a dog (who was her on-the-side private client), which killed the dog. Petco wisely let her go.


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## prolibertate (Nov 7, 2007)

OP, you did exactly the right thing. First, one should never show aggression toward a fear aggressive dog; that's asking to get bit and I don't blame the dog for biting. Second, all your dog did was bark, something all dogs do when they see other dogs, get startled, etc. A correction of any kind (other than to say 'hush' or 'thank you' to the dog for doing what she's supposed to) isn't appropriate. Third, if this 'trainer' knew your dog was fear aggressive and alpha rolled her anyway, then she's an idiot and shouldn't be training dogs.

That 'trainer' had no right to roll your dog (or any dog, for that matter, IMO). From what I've read, PetSmart teaches people to train dogs; if they're teaching alpha rolls, then they're not teaching good training, IMO. If this trainer took it upon herself to do something outside of how PetSmart trains them to be trainers, then she should be fired. Frankly, anyone I saw who alpha rolled or scruffed a dog wouldn't be someone I'd take a dog to or that I'd recommend to anyone; in fact, I'd be steering people clear of that person.

It sounds like you're working well with your dog to desensitize her to being afraid. Keep doing that, with lots of treats along the way, and you'll both do just fine. If you're not familiar with these, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, and Nicole Wilde have some excellent books out that discuss fear aggression and how to help a dog who has it.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

poodleholic said:


> She *should* be fired! Don't give it another thought; you did PetSmart a favor by alerting them to a potential lawsuit. Here in FL, a trainer employed by Petco alpha rolled a dog (who was her on-the-side private client), which killed the dog. Petco wisely let her go.


Not saying that I condone it, but how does rolling a dog on it's side, kill a dog?


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I guess it stressed it out so much it had a heart attack or a brain anurism (sp?).


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

the-tenth said:


> Not saying that I condone it, but how does rolling a dog on it's side, kill a dog?


I think they are referring to this incident: http://dogblog.dogster.com/2006/07/20/owner-says-dog-exorcised-to-death/

Sounds more like the trainer had issues, and was clearly not using the alpha roll correctly. However, I would say very few people know how to use that move correctly (me not being one), and even fewer dogs out there would benefit from such a thing.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Hmmm...If anyone laid a hand on my dogs I would be speaking my mind, that's for sure. I have my own fear aggressive canine, and I know how to handle him, and he is pretty good in public and handling strangers, compared to what he used to be, but if someone like that came up to him and tried to roll him, I would have a fit; if they got bit...well...their fault, I told them to stay away from my dog, and that discipline (if necessary) is up to me, not a stranger.


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## palm9999 (Dec 15, 2007)

I think that it is just fine, what you did! There is no reason for people to be so stupid, and act as if they know everything! They deserver to be fired, or reprimanded in some way.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> Not saying that I condone it, but how does rolling a dog on it's side, kill a dog


?

When someone uses aversive force like that on a dog, it's called flooding. It's not only psychologically traumatic and damaging (the dog shuts down), it can result in respiratory or cardiac arrest when prolonged, even when the person doing it isn't physically hurting the dog. The trainer in FL held the young GSD who died down in that position, not allowing the dog to get up "until the dog calmed down." He didn't calm down, he died. This (adolescent) dog had been kept on a chain in the back yard for over a year (if I remember correctly), was unsocialized, and had no prior training when the owners enlisted the "help" of this so-called trainer. I cannot imagine anyone who knows and understands dogs using an alpha roll on a dog, period, but especially under these circumstances. 

There's a lot of people out there who claim to be dog trainers who know jack SH** about dogs! (Pardon my French!) Those who use force and aversives to "train" a dog are, IMO, abusive. I'm not against a correction with a dog who has already been trained a behavior (and has been proofed in diverse locations) but refuses. I'm talking about using force and corrections as a training method. It's so unnecessary, and they never end up with a dog who enthusiastically works with that handler. I want dogs who work with me because they enjoy the team work, and have fun!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

the-tenth said:


> Not saying that I condone it, but how does rolling a dog on it's side, kill a dog?


In the case of the PetCo trainer, she held the dog down in a roll with her elbow in the dogs throat, the dogs wind pipe was crushed. She had injured several other dogs doing the same thing. It wasn't done on PetCo time so PetCo took no action until she killed a dog. PetCo has since changed their policies todisallow their trainers from doing private training because of the liability issues.


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## Two'sCompany (Mar 30, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> Those who use force and aversives to "train" a dog are, IMO, abusive. I'm not against a correction with a dog who has already been trained a behavior (and has been proofed in diverse locations) but refuses. I'm talking about using force and corrections as a training method. It's so unnecessary, and they never end up with a dog who enthusiastically works with that handler. I want dogs who work with me because they enjoy the team work, and have fun!


 I totally agree here.

The "trainer" shouldn't have even used unsafe practice on a dog knowing consequences.


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## erijane (Mar 30, 2008)

Shaina said:


> I think they are referring to this incident: http://dogblog.dogster.com/2006/07/20/owner-says-dog-exorcised-to-death/
> 
> Sounds more like the trainer had issues, and was clearly not using the alpha roll correctly. However, I would say very few people know how to use that move correctly (me not being one), and even fewer dogs out there would benefit from such a thing.


yes she should be shown toward the door! I have seen little dog play/ fights at pet co. get blown way out of proportion a simple separation is all thats called for...


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## Aggie (Mar 13, 2008)

Trainer or not, why on EARTH would you lay a hand on someone else's dog without their prior permission?!


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## Chris_Texas (Feb 21, 2008)

I don't know....

Just today I was in Petsmart shopping for a nice studded collar for my GSD. Anyway, there I am, minding my own business, when this old lady wheels her shopping cart behind me and I hear a small (but scary) '_Yip, yip yip!!_'

I spin and look, and the lady has a freaking Pomeranian riding in the little fold out seat section of the cart, and the little monster is totally out of control aggressive barking _'Yip Yip!_,' its teeth flashing, and a wicked little gleam in its eye that said (and clear as a bell) "I am the Alpha Male in THIS store buddy!" As a responsible pet owner (and forum poster) I knew I had to act, if not for my own safety, then for the old lady and potentially anyone else this furry menace came in contact with.

Without pausing to consider my own safety (sometimes you just have to go for it) I shoved the old lady clear before the Pomeranian even had a chance to attack her. Then, still not pausing to think, I snatched that furry menace out of the cart and did a WWF triple-suplex body slam to the urine stained Petsmart flood, finishing with a sort of combination Alpha Roll / Elbow drop. 

Anyway, there I am, helping this old lady train her dog, when all of a sudden the old geezer jumps back to her feet and starts wholoping me with her HUGE purse, screaming at me to get off her baby. I am looking at her with my jaw hangin', amazed that she isn't thanking me for possibly saving her life (and maybe a little stunned from her blows), when her little mongrel BITES ME! 

Right on my thumb; and it hurts too!!

Anyway, it just goes to show you that there are bad pet owners everywhere. So if you see this little old lady and her hell puppy, stay clear! 


Chris

(And in case anyone is wondering, no, none of that happened. I was just being silly)


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

She had every right to hit you, you shouldn't have alpha rolled or touched her dog unless it was running towards her and growling.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Chris_Texas said:


> I don't know....
> 
> Just today I was in Petsmart shopping for a nice studded collar for my GSD. Anyway, there I am, minding my own business, when this old lady wheels her shopping cart behind me and I hear a small (but scary) '_Yip, yip yip!!_'
> 
> ...


 

Apparently some people believed you.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Chris_Texas said:


> Without pausing to consider my own safety (sometimes you just have to go for it) I shoved the old lady clear before the Pomeranian even had a chance to attack her. Then, still not pausing to think, I snatched that furry menace out of the cart and did a WWF triple-suplex body slam to the urine stained Petsmart flood, finishing with a sort of combination Alpha Roll / Elbow drop.
> 
> Anyway, there I am, helping this old lady train her dog, when all of a sudden the old geezer jumps back to her feet and starts wholoping me with her HUGE purse, screaming at me to get off her baby. I am looking at her with my jaw hangin', amazed that she isn't thanking me for possibly saving her life (and maybe a little stunned from her blows), when her little mongrel BITES ME!
> 
> ...


You terrible,horrible disgusting person,your lucky you dont live near me

LMFAO,ive not laughed so much at any post only because Durbkat believed it,im pissing myself laughing here,oh s***.



Durbkat said:


> She had every right to hit you, you shouldn't have alpha rolled or touched her dog unless it was running towards her and growling.


Durb,you are hilarious.


Back to OP,definetly in the right complaing,and quite frankly your dog had every right to bite the idiot.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

What, he wasn't serious? Umm..ok I don't see why you'd joke about alpha rolling someone's dog without saying that your joking but ok.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Lighten up durb,its called sarcasim.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I now know he was joking, but I thought he was serious.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

To the OP: I think you showed incredible restraint not alpha rolling the trainer, I can't even fathom my reaction should someone try to do that to one of my dogs 

The rest...well, I'll be back to comment after I go take a shower and wipe up the puddle ROTFL!!!


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I know in my area, Petsmart trainers could be anyone who has taken two sets of classes... Not to knock anyone, (Cheetah, I believed I saw you post that you worked there, and I know your pretty dog savvy) but I've heard more than my fair share of complaints about Petsmart.

This person should be fired and hopefully your store takes a little more care when laying out the rules for their new employees.

I know at my school, at the beginning of each set, your asked if your okay with your dog being used as a demo dog, and if your okay with leash corrections, physical corrections etc. We don't forcibly roll dogs, ever.

Good for you for actually doing something though, and not letting it slide.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

She got herself fired, that is just insane. You did the right thing.

Before signing up for the Petsmart classes at ours, I had talked to the trainer, watched him with his dog, and observed a class, so I am confident in him. He's also been there for years.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

Gheez- I'm gone for a bit and look what happens 
I work with fear dogs and I would never roll a dog like that- doesnt teach them scrap other then more fear maybe. I have that Rottie here now going on 6 weeks and she has a issue with it, but we're working on that and a few other things- she really is a Gem and learning fast, but got abused somewhere. Back to the issue- I dont think you are "at fault" - this other person is. She asked for trouble, got it. Your dog might take a step back, but it shouldnt be too bad- I think you have already established a trust that she will pretty easily come back to that. But it may be something to consider for the future- "how would I react if this would happen again?"
I'm not all for pet smart "trainers" either- had too many people come after going to pet smart and it was not the dogs issue, but they are not all bad- I think you will find good and bad anywhere, so to take it as a learning lesson


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## MyDog M*A*S*H (Mar 30, 2008)

People need to be held accountable for their actions. You are not getting her fired, she sounds like she is doing a good job of that herself. A good boss will keep detailed records on all of his/her employees & staff. Good and bad notes should be kept and a system for accountability. In many places she would be warned first either verbally or better a written warning. You don't know what is in her file unless you are the boss/supervisor so its not your fault. I understand you feel bad if someone loses their job, but its not your fault. They say one rotten egg spolis the bunch. Do the best job you can and avoid people like this as much as possible. If someone touches any of my dogs without my approval then I would have an issue with that.


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## Bextastic (Apr 8, 2008)

Good call going to the manager - I know alot of people have said they'd "roll" the trainer, but your way is alot more professional and effective.  We're starting petsmart group lessons soon, but like someone else said, we talked to the trainer that will be running our class and watched her do some training. We saw her working one-on-one with a dog that was barking a loooot at other dogs in the store, but she never did anything like roll the dog. She explained that all the training in her classes is reward oriented, so I'm optimistic that we've got one of the good ones.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> The trainer hat alpha rolled you fear aggressive dog DESERVES to be fired. .


 I agree with you totally. The trainer should never do alpha roll on fear-aggressive dogs. I don't support doing alpha rolls at all on any dogs either. 

When someone does this to their dogs, it only creates distrust and intimidation in their dogs. This kind of relationship does not do any good and it can make dogs feel very insecure around people and strangers. This is not how people should work with fear aggressive dogs. They need more positive reinforcement.  

If someone does an alpha roll on fear aggressive dogs, they are very AFRAID that they are going to be killed. It only escalates the aggression because they think they are fighting for their lives. 

I'm glad that you got this trainer failed. It is very common that many trainers don't agree over many things, but they shouldn't bash each other.


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