# Concerned about calcium and protien levels in puppy food



## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

I need someone to geek out with me on dog food for a minute!  I'm trying to figure out a good kibble for a show potential samoyed puppy. As the title states, I'm concerned about calcium and protien levels in the food. 

Innova is not on the menu, so to speak. I think it's too rich for a puppy that will grow to potentially 70 lbs. I know that if they grow too quickly it can warp bones and damage growth plates. 

I've looked into Origen, but more then a few sammy breeders that I've spoken to state their dogs have developed allergies to it, so I will probably steer clear of that. 

I've looked in to Fromm's Large Breed Puppy Gold, as well as Fromm's Four Star Nuritionals. The reason is that I'm comfortable with the protein levels, the majority of the ingredients, and plus it contains probiotics and glucosimine and chondroiten. 

For a wet supplement/kong stuffer, I like Solid Gold Green Cow Tripe. 

Do you have any other kibble suggestions?

I'm not a huge fan of the Honest Kitchen...for one thing it's really expensive, and it's not really "raw" food, anyway. 

Many good sam breeders seem to LOVE Eukenuba...they say they have great results with it. Some love purina one... I mean, I COULD feed that. I'm just not 100% sure that I would want to. Ya know?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Have you ruled out regular Innova, or just Innova EVO? I think regular Innova is fine. Or are you trying to stay with grain-free foods? If so, check out Taste of the Wild, Solid Gold Barkin' at the Moon, Merrick BG, and Canidae Grain-free. I have no idea about their calcium levels, but they're worth checking out.

I feed my dogs Chicken Soup for the Dog Lover's Soul. It's a good food. Others I've used are Canidae, Blue Buffalo, Solid Gold Hund-n-Flocken or Mmillennia, Natural Balance, and Prairie.


----------



## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

IMHO, the best food for a show pup is one that will not necessarily grow them slow, but rather evenly. This reduces the problem of lankiness & an out of proportion, unbalanced look that some feeds can produce should the pup have a growth spurt. A while back I tried Natural Balance for my pups after we had 2-3 pups come down with pano. Mind you, this was an "all life stage", low protein feed, yet the pups grew so poorly on this you could see that within days their back had elongated, the legs were lanky ... they looked a mess of ugly puppy. 

The best foods I've used for growth were Wellness pup & Purina. I will say this about the Wellness - the pups were on it for approx 3 months, and it grew them as slowly and evenly as I have ever seen pups grow. *However*, towards the end of the time they were on this feed, while they looked very well balanced for pups their age (5-6 months), when I compared them to their two littermates, it was evident they did have stunted growth to an extent  The problem was the last bag of food I used - it was either a bad batch or maybe a formula change (?) but it went straight through them. Lots of foul smelling, soft poo, bouts of colitis to the point I had to switch because I couldn't tolerate the waste anymore. I had three pups on it, and none of them seemed to have grown at all. Perhaps why they appeared so balanced. They simply weren't growing. I don't know. I might use it again for a pup I was going to show, to keep them small & well balanced, but probably wouldn't go with it as the sole diet. 

Ideal calcium : phosphorous ratio should be around 1.1 : 1.0, with the latter number being the phosphorous. This will always vary somewhat, but sticking as close as possible to this ratio usually promotes the best growth and maintenance levels. This is why I can't see feeding rich foods like Evo with a calcium : phos ratio of 3.0 : 2.0 ish. That will have consequences ... Anyway, I've never had an issue with Pano or uneven growth on Purina tho. It't a bland feed but the dogs do well on it. It's one of very few feeds that use animal fat in lieu of chicken fat, which can be too high in Omega 6. The animal fat feeds usually are better for skin/coat, and produce more abundant coat. I use Puppy Chow and my pups are growing faster than when on Wellness, yet still very evenly. Most show people I know are swearing by Pro Plan. I have to admit I've never seen a PP fed pup who was a mess of gangly legs for too long. Very good feed. Anyway, that's just my experience ...


----------



## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

Innova is not something I would consider for a large breed puppy. It's just too rich to promote the even bone growth that Urban Beagle is talking about. 

The trouble with grain free foods and large breed puppies is that if a food has too much protien, or calcium, the ultra fast growth it creates could make a puppy's skeleton warp and possibly damage growth plates. 

I understand that there is a push to feed grain free, but truly it's not appropriate in every instance. 

I'm not entirely sold on Purina products. Lots of great sam breeders DO feed that stuff, and say they've never had a problem. 

I just am not entirley comfortable with that list of ingredients, although I know it does produce results. 

I've heard that Eagle Pack Holistic makes a large breed puppy formula. Has anyone tried that?


----------



## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

the protein level is not as important as having a proper calciumhosphorus ratio. there are many dogs fed raw diets as pups that are fine as long as youre making sure your ratio is correct.

i had a pup have HOD. it was the worst thing i have ever had to experience. anyway, when we put her on Eagle Pack Holisic large and giant breed puppy she improved dramatically. we now have her on Taste Of The Wild and shes great. although shes deformed in her front legs, and her growth was stunted.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Two of my friends raised their Goldens on Eagle Pack Holistic and have had no problems. Having said that, I don't know enough about structure to determine if they're a little uneven or balanced, so when I say "have had no problems" I pretty much just mean they have successfully grown into adult dogs  I believe Wabanafcr, a flat-coat breeder here, feeds Eagle, but I'm not sure exactly which one... but as you can see her dogs look fabulous.

I would ignore the hype abut glucosamine/chondroitin and probiotics in kibble. Usually the amount is negligible, and it's merely there as a marketing gimmick. If you would like to include these things in your dog's diet, find a good supplement.


----------



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Sammgirl said:


> I think it's too rich for a puppy that will grow to potentially 70 lbs.


i am just curious, i have not heard of a sammy getting up to 70lbs. the akc standard for a sammy is 23 1/2 inches at the whithers and iorek is 24 inches and 50 lbs. i could not imagine another 20 lbs on him! to me he is still a little too thin but he still is young and i am sure he will fill out more, but i really can't see 20 lbs of filling out! 

this is a picture of him from november - when he was eating eagle pack holistic select duck and oatmeal









oh, i have fed evo, orijen, canidae, and eagle pack holistic select duck and oatmeal formula, and now we feed raw and it is working out fantastic. the rest of the foods just did not work and resulted in a lot of bummy baths. i don't know anything about balanced growing or anything like that but he is really beautiful to me! i personally wouldn't feed any purina or eukanuba foods, but that is my personal choice. my friend feeds iorek's brother orijen and is having great results on it. good luck finding the food that works out best for your doggie.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

What do you mean about Innova being too rich? Just curious. 

Orijen actually has really high protein levels, although that shouldn't be the main concern. Calcium/phosphorus levels are the concern. Orijen does have a large breed puppy formula 

I like Fromm 4Star and also the Gold products, including puppy. Another mentioned here Eagle Pack Holistic I know people who've used it with success, same with the regular Eagle Pack foods.


----------



## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

50 lbs for a male Sam? I was always told that the upper weight limit is 70 lbs, and I've been doing lots of research and talking to people who know far more then I do about Sams, and it seems that the majority of male dog are less then 70 lbs, but greater then 50 lbs. 

I will ask around on that. Ps- are you on the SamFans list??? Do you show? If so, what kennel is yours? I found a really good Sammy board to get on as well, called World Wild Sammy Smiles. 

The females I know can be significantly smaller then the males in this breed. However, I do know from many breeders that very good things come in small packages!  

Anyway, I do like the Fromm's puppy gold, and I am in the process of looking for a good probiotic supplement. As for the glucosimine and chondroiten, I will likely just buy that from the grocery store and have a veternarian help me figure out proper dosage.


----------



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

i would like iorek to put on another 5-10 lbs but he has always been on the lighter side like this. i just really can't see another 20 lbs on him. my vet is not concerned about it, i have spoken to her about it and the general consensus is that he is still a young male and that he will fill out eventually. i have seen a female from the same line and she was about 45 lbs but much smaller than iorek, so maybe he will fill out a lot more, who knows. 

we don't show, but iorek's mom and dad are titled. iorek is from the vanderbilt line. he has faults that would disqualify him from showing, his curly fur and the hooked tail, but i love him just the way he is!


----------



## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

Oooo!! Nice!!! One of the kennels I visited sort of cobreeds with Vanderbilt- Echo Samoyeds? I don't know if you know of them. Judi put me in contact with Jan @ Echo. Jan lives about 300 miles closer, LOL! 

Vanderbilt has some VERY nice dogs, and your boy is beautiful. I just want to cuddle him! Looks like you live in a perfect place for samoyeds, that's for sure!!!  He looks like he is winking in that picture! 

I've looked at Eagle very closely as well and I do like the formula.


----------



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

iorek's dad is vanderbilt and his mom is dushanbe, that is the kennel we got him from. they are in eastern passage, nova scotia. i was trying to find the information on iorek's parents but the lady changed her site. 

in the picture his breath is steaming over one eye. it was COLD! he doesn't mind the cold at all, unfortunately for me!

i can't wait to see pictures of your sammy when you get him!


----------



## TwoSweetBabies (Apr 28, 2008)

Urban Beagles, I totally respect your choice of feeding Pro Plan and have no problems with that, but I was just curious on your opinion on Innova? I have been feeding it for a long time and they do well on it. I noticed you have a concern with calcium and phosphorous, so I checked on Innovas (what I feed) nutrient analysis, and calcium is listed at 1.23 and phos is listed at .91
I was just wondering if you though this was an acceptable amount?
Thanks for you input!


----------

