# First pick of the litter--how to choose?



## LunarFlame (Jul 6, 2008)

My boyfriend and I are getting our first dog (english setter) sometime this fall (or whenever our breeder's dog gets pregnant). We have sent our deposit and have first pick of the litter when the puppies are born...

We know we want a male, and we know we want a lemon/tan and white pup...but what kinds of behaviours should we look for when we choose our pup? I've heard things like "never choose the runt" or "don't choose a timid puppy" but are these true, or just wives tales?

thanks in advance!

ETA: Since people have asked, this is what we're looking for in a dog:
-My boyfriend wants a hunter (these pups are bred from hunting stock). I want a dog that is affectionate but confident (english setters generally love attention and affection but are also prone to separation anxiety). I like loyal, friendly dogs, willing to learn.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

IMO, your breeder should know you well enough, including your preferences, to pick the pup that's best for you and your dog's environment. The breeder will have to uphold the contract guarantee after all, so it makes no sense for you to choose the pup when your breeder has spent the most time intimately getting to know each individual pup.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

What kinds of behaviors do you want? Some people hate dogs with high pack drives (velcro dogs that follow you...want to be petted/cuddled). Some want to hunt with their dogs, some want to do Agility or Obedience work. Some want high energy dogs to go on daily runs with them of 10-15 miles every day. Some like the sight and sound sensitive dogs (more 'alive' to the world around them) while others prefer the really mellow, laid back types.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

okay. Well it also depends on how you raise the dog, I'll explain that later.

When you go to see the puppies, and if the mom dog and dad dog are there, get the breeders to make them leave. Look at the puppies, the ones sitting in the corner, or puppies playing with eachother ignoring you are not the right puppies if you want a social active puppy. The puppies that are interested in you are the good ones. Pick them up, put them on their backs in your arm, play with their ears, feet, throw keys on the floor and see which puppies go up to them. 

Shy puppies will take more socialization.
But if you do not socialize the active puppy properly, it can become a shy puppy.
When I went to pick my puppy, there were three left. I wanted to get a boy, I was dead set on getting a boy. I go in there, and it was cool cauze we allready knew the breeder, and had baby sat previous litters for them. okay, so 3 puppies, one runs up to me, hello hello hello. One sits in the corner, staring at me, another one comes up says hi and goes over and lays with the other one. Well the first puppy who came to see me is acting like im its hero and so excited to see me! So I next test, I threw some keys, the two other puppies freak out and hide unfer the bed, the puppy I was playing with goes to the keys,picks them up, and brings them to me. So I want this puppy, I tell the people I want this one. And their like, okay you can have her. I'm like...what...her???? It's a boy...and their like no, she's a little girl. So I ended up getting a girl. =] And I love her! And the other two puppies are still pretty shy, not around me because they remember me, but around other people they are still very shy.

But, if you do not socialize the puppy, it can still end up being fearfull. And they do have fear phases, so if you think your friendly puppy has suddenly gone shy, (like mine right now) its just a fear phase, and you have to work through it and act like everything is not a threat. Have fun with your puppy!


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

my advice is not to go for a particular sex, when they are fixed boys and girls are generally similar, to me sex has nothing to do with it. i would go there not knowing which are boys and which are girls and pick the puppy that you like the most. but if you really are set on getting a boy thats ok too. just remember to get the breeders opinion, they know the puppies best. 

good luck!!!!


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

I would pick the most social dog, the one that is very excited to see me, and doesn't act hostile when i hold it.
Can't say i believe in the ''Let the breeder pick one for you'' It's almost like saying (please note the almost, i'm not saying it's the same) that someone is going to pick you a baby instead of leaving with the one you, or your wife gave birth to.

It's all about the affection you feel for the puppy you see, if you really feel something for the dog, there are no boudaries for the future!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I absolutely agree with curbside prophet.... I dont let any of my puppy people pick simply because they just don't know how..... 

Picking the most social puppy ????? for a hunting dog....????? not a chance.... for a hunting dog you want a nice balanced puppy.... you also want a structurally sound puppy.... you want a birdy puppy.... 

I have yet to meet a reputable breeder who allows their puppy people to pick for themselves.... for several reasons 
first reputable breeders get to know their puppy families and they make the matches based on the temperament of the puppy and the temperament of the family..... shoot I know my puppies after ten weeks way better than anyone who comes in and picks after 2 hours. I know who is shy who is outgoing who is steady (very important in a hunting dog) 
I know who is sound sensitive.... etc.... I also can tell you who is just having a bad day on the day you come to pick 

I also being a reputable breeder do a structural evaluation and pull out my performance and show puppies first and foremost.... because I have evaluated that those puppies are the ones I want in the breed ring or ones that will be working.... and a working puppy MUST BE structurally sound or they can't work effectively.... (I have sporting dogs ) 

I then take the remaining puppies and match them to families.... none of this first pick stuff..... everyone gets pick puppy.... because pick puppy means the right puppy for them..... 

I can't put a sound sensitive puppy into a family wiht lots of young kids... what a disaster.... I dont want a wild sociable nutty puppy in a hunting home because they would never be steady at the line.... 

I match puppies to families and I talk to people for months and weeks and meet EVERYONE in teh family and then match puppies..... 

if it were me.... 

I would really take a good look at your breeder.... because doing this pick thing... screams backyard breeder to me.... 

there are plenty of reputable english setter breeders out there..... 

good luck 
S



Erick Aguilar said:


> I would pick the most social dog, the one that is very excited to see me, and doesn't act hostile when i hold it.
> 
> It's all about the affection you feel for the puppy you see, if you really feel something for the dog, there are no boudaries for the future!


No it is not, it is about the puppy that fits with your family.... the reality is that people love any dog that they have.... thats the thing about dogs they weasle their way into your hearts..... however, this person's boyfriend wants to hunt and that is a specific task and a specific set of traits that the puppy needs to have.... both temperament wise and skill wise.... who wants a hunting dog that can't point or flush..... or in my case retrieve.... or pick up a bird.... 

I absolutely WOULD NOT pick the most social dog ..... you will end up with a puppy that is not steady at teh line..... who can't wait for instruction... .who is not independant enough to work without constant instruction.... 
s



foxthegoldfish said:


> my advice is not to go for a particular sex, when they are fixed boys and girls are generally similar, to me sex has nothing to do with it. i would go there not knowing which are boys and which are girls and pick the puppy that you like the most. but if you really are set on getting a boy thats ok too. just remember to get the breeders opinion, they know the puppies best.
> 
> good luck!!!!


Actually I find my girls and boys very different even after neutering..... 

s


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I agree with Shalva about 90% of the way here- but I *do* know of soem working-dog breeders who allow their puppy people to pick- but nearly ALWAYS from a pup or two who have been pre-selected (and the breeder always picks their pick first.).

I would worry much less about color (especially on field-bred ES, since they have so much less in the way of markings anyway) and more about personality- I'd look for birdiness and biddabiity in equal aprts, but it'd depend a lot on the individual breed and their tendencies- I don't know much about ES temperament as a hunting dog, the sporting breed I have the most experience with is pointers.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> I agree with Shalva about 90% of the way here- but I *do* know of soem working-dog breeders who allow their puppy people to pick- but nearly ALWAYS from a pup or two who have been pre-selected (and the breeder always picks their pick first.).
> 
> I would worry much less about color (especially on field-bred ES, since they have so much less in the way of markings anyway) and more about personality- I'd look for birdiness and biddabiity in equal aprts, but it'd depend a lot on the individual breed and their tendencies- I don't know much about ES temperament as a hunting dog, the sporting breed I have the most experience with is pointers.


if it is from a pup then that pup is chosen for the person because there is only one pup 

if it is a choice of two then those pups have basically been picked by the breeder again.... and generally those offerings are based on color and gender not on temperament... it has already been determined that either pups would be a match for the person.... so the breeder is giving them an option of predetermined prematched puppies.... I have done that.... 

what no responsible breeder does is let the person walk in and have 7 puppies to choose from and say pick..... 


s


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## LunarFlame (Jul 6, 2008)

Shavla: this whole not being allowed to pick which pup I want is news to me. I've never heard of this practice. I sure would appreciate the breeder suggesting which pups might be best for me...but in the end isn't that decision up to me? I appreciate the tips on getting a good hunter though, the boyfriend will appreciate that.

And this IS NOT a backyard breeder. They are incredibly professional, dedicated, responsible people.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

LunarFlame said:


> Shavla: this whole not being allowed to pick which pup I want is news to me. I've never heard of this practice. I sure would appreciate the breeder suggesting which pups might be best for me...but in the end isn't that decision up to me? I appreciate the tips on getting a good hunter though, the boyfriend will appreciate that.
> 
> And this IS NOT a backyard breeder. They are incredibly professional, dedicated, responsible people.


The idea is that the pups have spent 8-10 weeks with the breeder, and will only be with you a few short hours, tops, most likely. If the breeders are as experienced and conscientious as you describe, they want their puppies to go to the ideal home for each puppy, because their number one concern is giving each of those puppies the best life possible. As, in theory, they have much more experience placing puppies then you do picking them, it would make sense that they have the final say in what puppies you have to choose from, be that 1, 2, or more. 

Basically, they should already know exactly what you are looking for, based on conversations with you, and thus should be better prepared to tell you which puppy fits that criteria--after all, the happier you are with your puppy, the happier that puppy will be with you.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

LunarFlame said:


> Shavla: this whole not being allowed to pick which pup I want is news to me. I've never heard of this practice. I sure would appreciate the breeder suggesting which pups might be best for me...*but in the end isn't that decision up to me?* I appreciate the tips on getting a good hunter though, the boyfriend will appreciate that.
> 
> And this IS NOT a backyard breeder. They are incredibly professional, dedicated, responsible people.




not really. The dogs aren't yours. The breeder can tell you to go pound sand if they want to. 

Perhaps you should call the breeder and ask what they do about picking puppies.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Really too much importance is given to the selection of the pup from the buyer's point of view. The most important selection the owner should make is in the breeder. I've always recommended before buying a puppy to choose a few different breeds you prefer, selecting two or three reputable breeders from each breed, and choosing the breeder you feel most comfortable with, regardless of breed. If you're comfortable with your breeder the extension onto them selecting a pup for you, you should also be comfortable with. 

Not saying this is your case but more often than not, puppy buyers get lost in a puppy's cuteness and forget how important their decision is in choosing the right breeder.


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## LunarFlame (Jul 6, 2008)

Thanks everyone, I had never heard of this practice before (this is my first time getting my own dog). I did a little more research and found that some breeders do this, and some don't. The way some people decribe it was that either the breeder does this, or they are a horrible breeder... it got me a little upset.
I *know* she is not a backyard breeder. She only breeds her females 4 times in their life and then they are retired. The facilities are amazing. I'm sure she is very concerned with making sure her pups get great homes, we just haven't even gotten close to that stage yet.

I haven't spoken to the breeder regarding the picking process yet (the mumma dog isn't even pregnant yet), but we plan to go visit somtime in the next two weeks again, so I will talk more to her about it then.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

LunarFlame said:


> Thanks everyone, I had never heard of this practice before (this is my first time getting my own dog). I did a little more research and found that some breeders do this, and some don't. The way some people decribe it was that either the breeder does this, or they are a horrible breeder... it got me a little upset.
> I *know* she is not a backyard breeder. She only breeds her females 4 times in their life and then they are retired. The facilities are amazing. I'm sure she is very concerned with making sure her pups get great homes, we just haven't even gotten close to that stage yet.
> 
> I haven't spoken to the breeder regarding the picking process yet (the mumma dog isn't even pregnant yet), but we plan to go visit somtime in the next two weeks again, so I will talk more to her about it then.


the fact that she only breeds her dogs four times in their life does not make her a backyard breeder or not..... 

More .... what health testing does she do??? 
Are the dogs her pets??? 
Does she breed for money or is she planning to keep a puppy from the litter? 
Why is she breeding??? (very important question) 
Does she show her dogs or compete with them in other ways to make them prove they are worth breeding??? 
What does the contract look like??? 
Does she have a right of first refusal clause??? 
do they temperament test??? 
do they do a structural analysis??? 
are the puppies on a spay neuter contract??? 

Why does someone breed when they are not planning to keep a puppy???? to sell puppies.... and make money..... 

what her kennel looks like.... how many times she breeds her dogs in their lifetime is irrelevant.... 

its what she does with her dogs and how she makes them prove that they are worth adding their genes to the pool.... 

And for the life of me I will never understand why people get upset when we question the integrity of their breeder..... 

We aren't questioning your integrity.... perhaps questioning a little about how you chose the breeder.... but shoot I will never understand getting upset about questioning the breeder... 

Ya know what I am a breeder.... I am the breeder!!! and people question me all the time.... and they should!!! I think people here on this board know that I am happy to answer any question that they have.... it keeps us honest... it keeps us thinking.... 

personally I dont care where you get your puppy.... but just from your last post.... about the breeding four times in their life... as an indication of a good breeder.... tells me that you don't really know how to find a good breeder and what you should be asking.... 

again Reputable breeder don't generally allow picking..... 

Canada.... US doesn't matter.... backyard breeders allow picking.... 

s


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## LunarFlame (Jul 6, 2008)

I don't care if you question the integrety of my breeder, I know it is important to find a reputable breeder and definatly do not want to support a backyard breeder.

However, I do feel as if my own personal intelligence is being questioned and that is why I feel the need to get defensive.

Here is the website to the family I will be getting my pup from. I have spoken to the lady, and she has been very helpful. The dogs are CKC registered (as are pups) and we must sign a non-breeding contract as well as a return contract if we feel we cannot keep our dog at any time.

http://www.ruffcountrykennel.com

Also, I read the sticky on one of the forums here regarding how to find a good breeder, and she fits all but one of the criteria (she allows pups to leave at 8-10 weeks and not 12).

And to add, I don't even know if we get to pick from the whole litter, or if she will choose one for us. I was unaware of the breeder-pick process until now, so I was just under the impression that the picking process worked differently.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

LunarFlame said:


> I don't care if you question the integrety of my breeder, I know it is important to find a reputable breeder and definatly do not want to support a backyard breeder.
> 
> However, I do feel as if my own personal intelligence is being questioned and that is why I feel the need to get defensive.
> 
> ...


Do you know anything about her English Setters??? she doesn't have them on her website and I would be interested in knowing more about those dogs.... There is little on the website to indicate much about them.... 

Have you had a "field" bred Setter before???? 

have you trained a field dog before??? 

are they local to you??? 

field bred English Setters are whacky (I love them) but they are high high energy..... 

This is not about questioning anyones intelligence.... its about trying to get people to really look at their breeder.... and make good decisions.... all puppies are cute... its their job... the reason you don't kill them after they peed on the floor for the 25th time.... 

if this is a good breeder great....but alot of people don't know how to find a great breeder.... and that is not because they are less than intelligent... its just hard.... 

I would want to know more about her dogs..... 

English Setters are great dogs.... my Aunt and Uncle have bred them for years (show lines) I adore them.... but the field setters I have met are a breed unto themselves.... they are wild ..... just be prepared.... you are going to have a high energy dog on your hands. 
s


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## LunarFlame (Jul 6, 2008)

I have done my research. I know what to expect.

I grew up with Brittney's and Springers. My father taught me a great deal about how to train them. I know the energy these dogs have, and I know how frustrating it can be if they aren't trained properly.

She does not have much about her ES on her site, but I have been corresponding with her via email for months, and we're meeting the dogs within the next couple of weeks. I have never had an ES before, but do have my lifetime worth of experience with bird hunting dogs that are traditionally high-strung.

She is pretty local to us, about a one hour drive from where I am living.

I am not one to go into owning ANY pet without doing a great deal of research. Heck, I waiting two years before I got my hamster... lol


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

LunarFlame said:


> I have done my research. I know what to expect.
> 
> I grew up with Brittney's and Springers. My father taught me a great deal about how to train them. I know the energy these dogs have, and I know how frustrating it can be if they aren't trained properly.
> 
> ...


meeting the dogs is a good idea and having them be local to you so they can assist with the gundog training is also a good thing.... I personally have retrievers so am not quite sure of training a pointing breed.... I think WVasko knows a bit more about the pointing flushing end than I do. 

I am glad that you know what you are getting into.... field breed setters are nice dogs... a friend of mine runs a puppy socialization class nearby here and they had a field setter who was just a lunatic... sweet but wild and she was running the other pups ragged and frightening several with her rough play so she asked me to bring one of my flat coats to the class... he was much older than allowed.... in that he was 16 weeks and only puppies up to 12 weeks were allowed in this class.... but he was able to match this setter puppy.... it was a riot.... body slamming each other and going crazy.... and flat coats are high energy as well.... so they were a good match... 

I am glad to hear you have done your homework..... just remember that four breedings, a pretty facility and ckc registration are not the things that differentiate a good breed from a poor one.... 

oh and the 8-9 weeks wouldn't bother me... just for the record... many sporting dog people let their puppies go earlier than other breeds... that would not be of concern to me.... toy breeds shouldn't leave before 12 weeks but I let my pups go at 10 and know other reputable breeders that let them go between 7-9 weeks.... sporting dogs are a bit different.... 

when you meet your breeder if you haven't done so already 
ask her for a copy of her contract..... that is really important.... 
s


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## LunarFlame (Jul 6, 2008)

thank- you incredibly for your help and suggestions! I really appreciate this


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