# Racing Whippets



## Sighthounds4me

On the Greyhound thread, someone asked about Whippet racing. Because, IME, it is so vastly different from Greyhound racing, I chose to start a new thread, so the Greyhound one stays on topic.

I have *some* experience in racing Whippets. My Borzois' breeder has Whippets as well, and raced them for a time. I usually took them to the races, with another friend. We did Continental Whippet Alliance races. These are straight races of about 300 yards.

The dogs are loaded into starting boxes and chase a lure pulled on a string, usually a stuffed toy. So far, this sounds similar, yes.

But the biggest difference is that Whippet racing is amateur. These dogs are pets, primarily, and thus are not as well conditioned (typically) as racing Greyhounds. Also, their owners are the ones that do the majority of the work at these races. Owners/handlers are recruited to be judges, lure operators, etc. I was usually a "catcher" for "our" dog, meaning I was at the end, and got him off the lure, and walked him out to cool him. I was often a line judge, too, meaning I would help determine the finish order of the dogs (other than "mine"). The races were followed by a conformation event. Then, at the end of the day, we went home.

There are certainly similarities, but most racing Whippets are also show dogs. The one that I took finished his championship in the show ring very easily, as many did. There are breeders who prefer to breed racers, but even the ones bred primarily for racing are still competitive in the show ring.

This is unlike racing Greyhounds, which are of a very different type to AKC bred Greyhounds.


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## LazyGRanch713

Sighthounds4me said:


> On the Greyhound thread, someone asked about Whippet racing. Because, IME, it is so vastly different from Greyhound racing, I chose to start a new thread, so the Greyhound one stays on topic.
> 
> I have *some* experience in racing Whippets. My Borzois' breeder has Whippets as well, and raced them for a time. I usually took them to the races, with another friend. We did Continental Whippet Alliance races. These are straight races of about 300 yards.
> 
> The dogs are loaded into starting boxes and chase a lure pulled on a string, usually a stuffed toy. So far, this sounds similar, yes.
> 
> But the biggest difference is that Whippet racing is amateur. These dogs are pets, primarily, and thus are not as well conditioned (typically) as racing Greyhounds. Also, their owners are the ones that do the majority of the work at these races. Owners/handlers are recruited to be judges, lure operators, etc. I was usually a "catcher" for "our" dog, meaning I was at the end, and got him off the lure, and walked him out to cool him. I was often a line judge, too, meaning I would help determine the finish order of the dogs (other than "mine"). The races were followed by a conformation event. Then, at the end of the day, we went home.
> 
> There are certainly similarities, but most racing Whippets are also show dogs. The one that I took finished his championship in the show ring very easily, as many did. There are breeders who prefer to breed racers, but even the ones bred primarily for racing are still competitive in the show ring.
> 
> This is unlike *racing Greyhounds, which are of a very different type to AKC bred Greyhounds.*


Very interesting topic aside, this last part was taken right out the outbox of my mind. I was actually going to comment on this before you even made this thread 
(That said, if the racers are good at what they do, and are built for their breed job (racing), why are the AKC dogs bred so differently? Do you think if an AKC pup was raced, trained, conditioned, and fed like a racing bred dog, they would be competitive on the track? What is is the comparison of HD stats between conformation bred and racing bred?)
I've only ever met a few whippets in my life; they're a breed I could see myself with. The ones I've known were slightly more high energy than a greyhound, but had the downtime brain as well. Freeze-babies, ours didn't really relish ohio winters  The boarding dogs want to go out to pee then back inside when it's below 50 degrees F. 
Another funny thing...everyone I've ever known to have whippets had them in pairs. Guess they're addicting  And from what I've seen, generally long-lived.


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## Sighthounds4me

LazyGRanch713 said:


> (That said, if the racers are good at what they do, and are built for their breed job (racing), why are the AKC dogs bred so differently?


Mainly because AKC breeders have done to Greyhounds what they have done to so many breeds - nearly ruined them by making them caricatures of the breed. Many AKC bred Greyhounds have very extreme rears, slab-sides and such ridiculously deep chests that it becomes difficult for them to be truly efficient runners.

Some Whippet lines seem to be goint the same way.

Why is this, you ask? IMO, it's because many breeders feel this is flashier in the show ring, thus attracts more attention. And the judges that put up dogs like this are only perpetuating it.

This is not to say, however, that NGA Greyhounds are any better. They are just the opposite extreme in a lot of ways. Rather than being the endurance runners they were originally bred to be, they have become sprinters. I have seen a racing greyhound after a 30 second, 3/8 mile race. They are completely spent, totally exhausted! That is not correct, either.

But, because they do not have the extreme rear, and have a proper chest, many NGA Greyhounds are closer to the breed standard than many AKC Greyhounds. IMO, the answer is somwhere in the middle. We need to see more interbreeding of the two types, and eventually we'd see the breed becoming closer to what it was originally. But, VERY few AKC breeders want that to happen. Most of them do not consder NGA dogs to be actual Greyhounds. In fact, if you look at a breed description on GCA's website, they are often referred to as "NGA dogs" rather than Greyhounds.



> Do you think if an AKC pup was raced, trained, conditioned, and fed like a racing bred dog, they would be competitive on the track?


No, I don't. Partially due to the conformational differences discussed above, and partially due to the fact that I don't believe they have the genetics to develop the fast-twitch muscle in the same way as racing-bred Greyhounds.They will never be as well-muscled (again, my own opinion, and truthfully, conjecture). Beyond that, I don't believe AKC Greyhounds have the same heart NGA Greyhounds do. Again, conjecture on my part, because I have not met many AKC Greyhounds, nor have I seen them run.

To get back to Whippets, I see a little similarity here. I do see some Whippet lines branching off in favor of racing vs. conformation. It's an interesting dichotomy!


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## bigmac

I don't know much about Whippets. Racing them like Greyhounds seems somewhat logical. The information you shared was informative and enlightening. Thanks!


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## NeedleNoseLuvR

Don't forget NOTRA (National Oval Track Racing Assocciation). This is another amateur racing group for whippets. They, also, have races for other sighthound breeds. NOTRA races are 220 yards to 440 yards long.


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## Sighthounds4me

NeedleNoseLuvR said:


> Don't forget NOTRA (National Oval Track Racing Assocciation). This is another amateur racing group for whippets. They, also, have races for other sighthound breeds. NOTRA races are 220 yards to 440 yards long.


Oh, I didn't leave out any organization on purpose. I was just speaking to my own experience. There are many racing organizations out there, especially for Whippets. And don't forget about lure-coursing, both ASFA and AKC.


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## winniec777

Would you mind posting a pic of a Whippet bred for conformation vs. a Whippet bred for racing? Or greyhounds for that matter. I'm curious about the what the differences look like. I used to drool over the retired racing greys from a rehoming org that used to visit our area a couple of years back. I remember them as such beautiful animals with such amazing form. I can kind of get what you mean by the exaggerated chests and back ends, but photos are always helpful if it's not too much trouble.


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## Sighthounds4me

winniec777 said:


> Would you mind posting a pic of a Whippet bred for conformation vs. a Whippet bred for racing? Or greyhounds for that matter. I'm curious about the what the differences look like. I used to drool over the retired racing greys from a rehoming org that used to visit our area a couple of years back. I remember them as such beautiful animals with such amazing form. I can kind of get what you mean by the exaggerated chests and back ends, but photos are always helpful if it's not too much trouble.


It might take me a while, but I will see what I can do.

I can pretty easily get you the Greyhound pics. But Whippets are a little tougher. First off, I am not as into that breed as Greyhounds and Borzoi, simply because I do not own any. And, at this point there is not a hugely apparent difference in the two, at least not like in Greyhounds. I think it will be going that direction, but the difference is not that pronounced yet. I will do what I can, though!


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## Xeph

My friend Niko's Greyhound, Zooka, who she adopted off the track:









AKC Champion Greyhound:


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## winniec777

Thanks, Xeph. If you or SH4me can answer ---- seems like a great difference in the distribution of muscle between these two dogs, no? I have zero knowledge of this, but to my untrained eye, the AKC dog while beautiful, looks way less defined and toned. Is that correct?


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## Sighthounds4me

I sent a message to a Greyhound breeder friend, and asked if I could use some of her photos. She bred a beautiful litter of AKC/NGA pups that have done a lot of winning, and if I can post pics of sire, dam, and a puppy or two, that's ideal.


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## winniec777

Thanks - I would love to see them! While these breeds are way out of my league, I still love to see and learn about them.


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## Sighthounds4me

winniec777 said:


> Thanks, Xeph. If you or SH4me can answer ---- seems like a great difference in the distribution of muscle between these two dogs, no? I have zero knowledge of this, but to my untrained eye, the AKC dog while beautiful, looks way less defined and toned. Is that correct?


Yes, definitely. I would expect that, though. If a Greyhound is showing, they may be doing light roadwork to stay in shape, but that is not going to result in the "bunches" of muscles you will see in a dog that is doing hard running on a regular basis. A show dog is apt to move in a straight line, at a brisk pace, perhaps as fast or slightly faster than in the ring. But he will be trotting, not flat-out running. This will maintain tone, but not be conducive to the hefty muscles of a running dog.

Beyond that, I would suspect that show dog is being fed a different food, that is not high in protein like a racing dog, too.

BUT, there are a lot of changes in a racer's body after retirement. Spaying/neutering is going to change the distrubution of muscle, as is a more sedentary lifestyle. If I can get a pic of my friend's bitch, who was a grade A racer, and went on to a show career, then whelped a litter of puppies, you will see what I mean. I can also look on adoption sites, to get one fresher off the track.










This is Mojo. He is up for adoption through the group I volunteer for (GPA-WI). He is fresh off the track, and you can really see the muscling along his sides. He is not stacked in this photo, but you get an idea how much straighter in the rear he is than the CH above.

He is also recently neutered, so the redistribution of things have not happened yet.


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## winniec777

Thanks - that makes sense. Sounds like your friend has a beautifully balanced dog. The ones I used to visit were fresh off the track so that is the look I'm used to.


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## Sighthounds4me

Here's Electra, also for adoption through my group. Again, not stacked terribly well, but you get the idea. She is a lovely little girlie!












winniec777 said:


> Thanks - that makes sense. Sounds like your friend has a beautifully balanced dog. The ones I used to visit were fresh off the track so that is the look I'm used to.


She does! I am in love with one of the pups from that litter, and every time I see him I drool! Her racing bred bitch is VERY nice, too, and I had a chance at a litter-sister, but could not afford it at the time.

I forgot to mention, the bitch this friend has is also an open-field courser, and quite good at it. So she does NOT lead a sedentary life, and is still very active (well, maybe not anymore - she's getting up there in years!).


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## Nargle

I appreciate the info! Amateur racing is actually very appealing to me, as I've been doing quite a bit of research on the Silken Windhound breed. I'm very interested in hopefully owning one some day. 

I'm not sure what your views/experience with Silken Windhounds are, but would you say that the way they race is similar to Whippets?


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## Sighthounds4me

Nargle said:


> I appreciate the info! Amateur racing is actually very appealing to me, as I've been doing quite a bit of research on the Silken Windhound breed. I'm very interested in hopefully owning one some day.
> 
> I'm not sure what your views/experience with Silken Windhounds are, but would you say that the way they race is similar to Whippets?


I have absolutley NO experence with Silkens! I like the breed a lot, though, and want to do more research myself. If/when we want smaller, coated dogs, that breed will be high on my list!


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## winniec777

They are both beautiful dogs! Such a huge difference between them and the AKC dog photo Xeph posted. Thanks again for helping me understand this. I'm looking forward to watching this thread and learning more.


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## Xeph

> If you or SH4me can answe


So, the internet has totally gotten to me. I just read SH4me as "Shame". Oh my God x.x


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## Nargle

Sighthounds4me said:


> I have absolutley NO experence with Silkens! I like the breed a lot, though, and want to do more research myself. If/when we want smaller, coated dogs, that breed will be high on my list!


I fell in love with a couple of Silkens that frequent our dog park, and it all went downhill from there, lol! Now every time my mom and I go there we wonder "Are the windhounds here?" :biggrin1:

From what I've researched it sounds like racing Whippets and racing Silkens are similar. For Whippets, is it a requirement that racing dogs also participate in conformation events, or are there people that just race for fun?

Here's a blog about Silken Windhound racing I've found if you're interested:
http://silkenwindhounds.org/performance-blog/


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## Sighthounds4me

winniec777 said:


> They are both beautiful dogs! Such a huge difference between them and the AKC dog photo Xeph posted. Thanks again for helping me understand this. I'm looking forward to watching this thread and learning more.


And I LOVE Electra's name! She's just a LITTLE girl - about 57#!



Nargle said:


> For Whippets, is it a requirement that racing dogs also participate in conformation events, or are there people that just race for fun?


Oh, no, conformation is not required. And the organization that I went to was very fun about it. They brought in AKC approved judges, but it was not an AKC event, and no one put a ton of stock in it. The racing was the biggest part, and provided the majority of the bragging rights!  The conformation, however, did contribute to national rankings, so even those who did merely "ok" on the race track could do well overall, if the cleaned up in conformation.

I believe most of the spayed/neutered Whippets did not participate in conformation.

I am unfamiliar with other organizations, though, as to whether or not they even do conformation. I know that in ASFA (American Sighthound Field Assoc.) and AKC lure coursing, conformation has nothing to do with it.

But yes, IMO, *any* dog sport should be fun, first and foremost. If the dog and the humans are not having fun, why bother?  So yes, there were plenty of people who were there for the fun of it. And it was always very casual.


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## Sighthounds4me

NM...I can't get the pictures to load properly. And since they are not mine, I won't upload them to Photobucket to post here. I will encourage her to post!

Okay, let's try this again...

Here is Glory, DC DM Jolie Noir (posted with permission from the breeder/owner Elaine Summerhill):










Glory is NGA/AKC, and is very balanced. I LOVE this bitch!


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## dyno-mutt

winniec777 said:


> Thanks, Xeph. If you or SH4me can answer ---- seems like a great difference in the distribution of muscle between these two dogs, no? I have zero knowledge of this, but to my untrained eye, the AKC dog while beautiful, looks way less defined and toned. Is that correct?


Knowing who owns the AKC dog, I'm pretty sure that he is in pretty good condition. The differences you are seeing in the muscle is the difference between fast twitch and slow twitch fibers. As a rule, fast twitch muscle fibers make a "bulkier" looking muscle, sorta like what the human track sprinters have, whereas the slow twitch fibers are longer, less pronounced, like those seen in human marathoners. Slow twitch muscles carry more oxygen and can sustain aerobic activity; fast twitch muscles can only sustain short, anaerobic bursts of speed. Most of your AKC breeders (not all) are breeding for that smooth look. They believe that they are breeding for a dog capable of sustaining long, long courses with that "smooth muscle" but, unfortunately, they are doing away with the fast twitch muscling that the dogs need for the ever important run up on the hare. But, they do believe that they are breeding the correct form of greyhound that would be successful in the coursing fields. Hard to say since the greatest portion of them do not test their dogs in the field. That is truly the only place where you find what works for coursing - the traditional work of sighthounds.

Elaine


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## Sighthounds4me

dyno-mutt said:


> Knowing who owns the AKC dog, I'm pretty sure that he is in pretty good condition. The differences you are seeing in the muscle is the difference between fast twitch and slow twitch fibers. As a rule, fast twitch muscle fibers make a "bulkier" looking muscle, sorta like what the human track sprinters have, whereas the slow twitch fibers are longer, less pronounced, like those seen in human marathoners. Slow twitch muscles carry more oxygen and can sustain aerobic activity; fast twitch muscles can only sustain short, anaerobic bursts of speed. Most of your AKC breeders (not all) are breeding for that smooth look. They believe that they are breeding for a dog capable of sustaining long, long courses with that "smooth muscle" but, unfortunately, they are doing away with the fast twitch muscling that the dogs need for the ever important run up on the hare. But, they do believe that they are breeding the correct form of greyhound that would be successful in the coursing fields. Hard to say since the greatest portion of them do not test their dogs in the field. That is truly the only place where you find what works for coursing - the traditional work of sighthounds.
> 
> Elaine


Oh good! So I did have the right idea, but not all the detail! Thanks for the better description, Elaine!

Welcome aboard, by the way!


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## dyno-mutt

Sighthounds4me said:


> Yes, definitely. I would expect that, though. If a Greyhound is showing, they may be doing light roadwork to stay in shape, but that is not going to result in the "bunches" of muscles you will see in a dog that is doing hard running on a regular basis. A show dog is apt to move in a straight line, at a brisk pace, perhaps as fast or slightly faster than in the ring. But he will be trotting, not flat-out running. This will maintain tone, but not be conducive to the hefty muscles of a running dog.


Not necessarily... as I explained in my first post, much of what people are seeing as less conditioning is actually the difference between fast twitch & slow twitch muscling, especially with the AKC champion which was presented as an example. I know that dog's owner & he will be properly conditioned. Knowing his breeder too, I seriously doubt if he'd ever develop any "bunchy" looking muscle because of what she's been breeding for many years. She breeds for the "smooth" muscle look, which, in the end, eliminates much of the "fast twitch" muscle.

Check out this URL to see the difference in appearance in humans.


> Beyond that, I would suspect that show dog is being fed a different food, that is not high in protein like a racing dog, too.


This depends upon the owner. SOme feed raw; some feed kibble; some feed both... It all depends.



> BUT, there are a lot of changes in a racer's body after retirement. Spaying/neutering is going to change the distrubution of muscle, as is a more sedentary lifestyle. If I can get a pic of my friend's bitch, who was a grade A racer, and went on to a show career, then whelped a litter of puppies, you will see what I mean. I can also look on adoption sites, to get one fresher off the track.


Here is a picture of the bitch that Sarah mentions.










This was taken post retirement (for a broken hock) and prior to her litter. She was retired from lure coursing the day this photo was taken because of the prior injury. 



> This is Mojo. He is up for adoption through the group I volunteer for (GPA-WI). He is fresh off the track, and you can really see the muscling along his sides. He is not stacked in this photo, but you get an idea how much straighter in the rear he is than the CH above.
> 
> He is also recently neutered, so the redistribution of things have not happened yet.


Except for the fact that he's been neutered, I could finish that dog in the breed ring. 

Elaine


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## Sighthounds4me

dyno-mutt said:


> Except for the fact that he's been neutered, I could finish that dog in the breed ring.
> 
> Elaine


That's so funny! As soon as I saw that photo, I was thinking about how well he might do in conformation! I had a suspicion you'd say the same thing!



dyno-mutt said:


> Not necessarily... as I explained in my first post, much of what people are seeing as less conditioning is actually the difference between fast twitch & slow twitch muscling, especially with the AKC champion which was presented as an example. I know that dog's owner & he will be properly conditioned. Knowing his breeder too, I seriously doubt if he'd ever develop any "bunchy" looking muscle because of what she's been breeding for many years. She breeds for the "smooth" muscle look, which, in the end, eliminates much of the "fast twitch" muscle.
> 
> Elaine


I guess that's what I was thinking, just not putting into words in the right way. Now I know a little better how to verbalize my thoughts on this matter! LOL


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## winniec777

Thanks for the explanation, Elaine. I've heard of the fast/slow twitch muscle thing before, so that makes sense. It's very interesting to learn what breeders are trying for. I imagine there is much ongoing debate about it. Regardless, whether show dog or racer or both, these are such beautiful dogs and I'm glad to know that much more about them.

Glory is stunning and seems beautifully built! Thanks for posting, SH4me. I can see why you like her so much.


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## dyno-mutt

Here are some more pictures of various "working" AKC greyhounds.

Banner (Dual Ch DM Star Spangled Banner FCh ORC) - Banner is an AKC dual champion (breed ring & lure coursing), he is also an ASFA field champion (FCh) and a NOTRA oval racing champion (ORC). In addition, this boy is working on two "open field" coursing titles (coursing live hares similar to the Waterloo Cup), an LGRA sprint title, and he has recently begun training in agility. 










DCh DM Flag of Our Fathers FCh JOR - Nampa is another of the littermates. He was the first to finish his breed ring title at the tender age of 16 months old. We put him away to let him finish growing as he's a big dog. Nampa participates in the same sports as Banner, excepting for agility. For all his size (95 lbs), he is very agile and he can run a very long distance. I really haven't any good pictures of him stacked in the ring. The one I have, he was not quite 11 months old. Anyway...



















More Glory photos...



















Chispa - Yep... another littermate - DM Bonny Blue Flag. Chispa has lived in Mexico City since she was 13 wks old. Her "dad", Carlos, flew up here to take her home. He's done a wonderful job with her.










Here is the last of the litter - Jack aka DM Union Jack










Jib - DCh DM Flying Jib FCh - Tragically, Jib died in our backyard while running with Banner & Nampa. Somehow, she'd broken her neck in the yard. I was devastated by her loss. She was my girly girl.




























I have more, but this is enough already.

Elaine


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## Xeph

I once had a Whippet breeder tell me that breeders that were breeding incorrectly for that "bunchy" muscle look, and that her dog was correct for having smooth, flat muscles. Now, I don't know who is right and who's not, but the explanation for a Grey makes sense to me.

So would that 'smooth muscle' look mean breeding for "Flat muscle"?

ETA: Elaine, you and I posted at the same time. Beautiful Greys <3


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## Sighthounds4me

Xeph said:


> I once had a Whippet breeder tell me that breeders that were breeding incorrectly for that "bunchy" muscle look, and that her dog was correct for having smooth, flat muscles. Now, I don't know who is right and who's not, but the explanation for a Grey makes sense to me.
> 
> So would that 'smooth muscle' look mean breeding for "Flat muscle"?


As I understand it, yes.

And really, to me, breeding the smoother muscle vs. the "bunchier" muscle is a matter of interpretation. IMO, a good balance of the two is ideal. Too much fast-twitch would give you a sprinter who would wear out quickly. Too much slow-twitch would give you a good distance runner, without the ability to "close the deal." If you have a good balance, you should have a dog that can run miles, but turn on the jets when it counts. And that's what I would like!

ETA: Elaine, is Banner a blue fawn? It's hard to tell in pictures, but he sure looks like one!


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## MusherChic

Sighthounds4me said:


> On the Greyhound thread, someone asked about Whippet racing. Because, IME, it is so vastly different from Greyhound racing, I chose to start a new thread, so the Greyhound one stays on topic.
> 
> I have *some* experience in racing Whippets. My Borzois' breeder has Whippets as well, and raced them for a time. I usually took them to the races, with another friend. We did Continental Whippet Alliance races. These are straight races of about 300 yards.
> 
> The dogs are loaded into starting boxes and chase a lure pulled on a string, usually a stuffed toy. So far, this sounds similar, yes.
> 
> But the biggest difference is that Whippet racing is amateur. These dogs are pets, primarily, and thus are not as well conditioned (typically) as racing Greyhounds. Also, their owners are the ones that do the majority of the work at these races. Owners/handlers are recruited to be judges, lure operators, etc. I was usually a "catcher" for "our" dog, meaning I was at the end, and got him off the lure, and walked him out to cool him. I was often a line judge, too, meaning I would help determine the finish order of the dogs (other than "mine"). The races were followed by a conformation event. Then, at the end of the day, we went home.
> 
> There are certainly similarities, but most racing Whippets are also show dogs. The one that I took finished his championship in the show ring very easily, as many did. There are breeders who prefer to breed racers, but even the ones bred primarily for racing are still competitive in the show ring.
> 
> This is unlike racing Greyhounds, which are of a very different type to AKC bred Greyhounds.


 Oh ok I get the idea now. Thanks for the info!!


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## dyno-mutt

Sighthounds4me said:


> ETA: Elaine, is Banner a blue fawn? It's hard to tell in pictures, but he sure looks like one!


Yes, Banner is a blue fawn. When he was younger, he had a full blue mask to go with his blue ears and blue overlay on his coat.

Elaine

PS - Thanks all for your kind comments!


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## Sighthounds4me

dyno-mutt said:


> Yes, Banner is a blue fawn. When he was younger, he had a full blue mask to go with his blue ears and blue overlay on his coat.
> 
> Elaine
> 
> PS - Thanks all for your kind comments!


ooo...email me pics of that! Of the boys, I have always been in love with Nampa, so I have to say, I kind of "ignored" Banner. But I loves me a blue fawn! If I were to choose based on color, blue fawn would be it!

You're welcome on the comments! I wouldn't say it if it weren't true!


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## dyno-mutt

My photography doesn't do him justice. He's about 16 wks old here and you can sorta see the blue mask.










Banner









Jack & Banner









Chispa (blue), Banner & Glory


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## Sighthounds4me

OMG - total cute puppy overload!

Thanks! I am going to go brush my teeth now - too sweet!


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## dyno-mutt

It's hard to believe that they will be four in June. Where'd the time go?

Elaine


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