# Why I won't feed RAW



## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

With all of this talk about how beneficial RAW can be if done correctly, I'd like to tell everyone why I PERSONALLY don't like feeding RAW: 

When my dog was a bit younger then she is, I wanted to try feeding RAW. I'd heard how much better it is for dogs to be on a RAW diet, but that the transition from kibble to RAW was tough on their digestive systems. 

I did some reading and had a food schedule laid out. Bought lots of frozen turkey necks, raw bones, and turkey meat because I'd heard that its best to start out with a mild meat, like turkey. 

Well, first week was AWFUL. Poor Orchid. Her stools ran like muddy water, and there was blood coming out, too. Took her to the vet, spent $100, and found out that nothing was wrong. 

Week 2- her stools are still runny, but no blood. She's starting to lose weight, which is NOT something a 7 month old needs to do. Still, I stuck it out because I'd heard such positive things about the diet. 

Fast forward to week 4- Her coat had lost all luster and appeared brittle. Her muscletone was dstill there, but it was obvious that she had lost some muscle during this adventure. Her stools were still runny, and she'd lost interest in eating. It was clear that her energy level was lower then normal, as she only played occasionally. 

My mentor was not pleased with the results, and we were both worried about Orchid. 

Once Orchid had been back on kibble for three months, her muscle tone returned, her coat was on a road to recovery, and her stools went back to being solid. She started eating better and her old fiesty personality returned in full force.

After that fiasco, I decided that RAW did not work well for Orchid. So, I decided to try to cook for her. Again, I thought if I could not do RAW, that I should at least try to cook for my dog. I thought, "Ok, what could go wrong?" I chose a balanced diet that included fruits and veggies, cooked meats, oats, flax seed, wheat germ, cooked pumpking and yogurt. This recipe was recommended by a friend of my mentor's. 

Seemed pretty complete to me! 

Again with the bloody/runny stools, poor coat quality, muscle loss and refusal to eat. Not as BAD as it had been with RAW, but similar results. 

Definitely not what I had expected, considering that both types of diets had been well recommended. 

I think that maybe some dogs just do not do well on RAW and cooked diets. I know that I followed both recipes to the T in regards to the weight of my dog and how much they should be fed and of what quantites and rations and how many times a day. I gave Orchid a month to get used to both diets- surely a month is long enough for a dog's body to acclimate to a RAW or cooked diet. 

Nothing else in the environment changed. It had to be the food. 

So, again, I don't think all dogs do well on RAW, even if the person does all the research and implements the recipes very carefully. 

There are other dangers, such as bacterial problems that can arise from feeding RAW, sometimes even death if a dog gets sick or chokes on a bone. 

While researching Akita breeders recently, I spoke to a lady who was very adament about feeding kibble. She said that a competitor feed her Akitas raw from the time that they are born and that the bitches are on RAW, too, while they are in whelp. 

She said that this person's puppies are obviously very far behind other puppies in an obvious way developmentally. The blood lines are somewhat similar, so the difference is the food. 

I think that if a dog is sick or is cancer prone, then maybe the benefits of a RAW diet would outweigh the cons. I know that's the only way I'd feed RAW again.

I realize this probably won't be popular opinion, but I also think that people need to see the other side of RAW feeding.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

See I am the opposite. I wont feed a kibble. Runny stools is normal at first if fed a product before with preservatives as the liver detoxies.. Nope- no thank you! I would rather feed the dog for what it is- a meat eater with only the intestine of animals. Commercial diets shortened the life span of any breed since their exisitance.. nope- no thank you- nada.. No way.. uh no.. I my dogs since 1984 have had a healthier life- lived longer and did better on raw.. Maybe you are satisified with having a dog scratch its whole life with allergies, but I am not.. Uh no.. They said when Hottie was 2 he would not make 5.. Uh..- he is now 9 years old! Femka had a full crash due to an accident and we almost lost her.. The use of chicken cartiledge is why she is still alive.. Kibble??? No way in you know what.. Nope- nada.. Case closed..


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

I will not feed RAW, either. High protein is NOT good for all dogs...which is a big part of this diet. I know that dogs are naturally carnivores, but they are very adaptable and one of the oldest living dogs in the world was fed a VEGAN diet!! I think it really just depends on the dog and his/her system...what's best for one dog will not be best for another. I think it's silly that some folks who feed RAW get so pushy with me because I feed kibble...it works for me and I'm not pushing my kibble on anyone unless they are feeding total crap...so yeah...like I said, I'm sure it works for some people, but I wouldn't try it.


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

Who said Orchid had allergies? She doesn't.  

Shortens the life span? Are you positive of that, especially when compared with a high quality commercial brand like Fromm's, Merrick, or Innova EVO? Can you back that up for me by providing research and a link? 

Maybe RAW worked for you and yours. That's awesome and I'm glad. If people want to feed it- go for it. 

I'm just telling the other side of the coin, where RAW doesn't and hasn't worked for people- myself included. 

I didn't say that people shouldn't try it. I think maybe it does work for some. I can tell you that I PERSONALLY won't be trying it again. 

I don't see why you would react to my post in that manner and make assumptions that are ridiculous and rude.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

NorthernLights said:


> I did some reading and had a food schedule laid out. Bought lots of frozen turkey necks, raw bones, and turkey meat because I'd heard that its best to start out with a mild meat, like turkey.
> 
> 
> After that fiasco, I decided that RAW did not work well for Orchid. So, I decided to try to cook for her. Again, I thought if I could not do RAW, that I should at least try to cook for my dog. I thought, "Ok, what could go wrong?" I chose a balanced diet that included fruits and veggies, cooked meats, oats, flax seed, wheat germ, cooked pumpking and yogurt. This recipe was recommended by a friend of my mentor's.
> ...



I think its the rare dog that doesn't do well on raw, but most should acclimate just fine with a cooked diet - keep in mind, kibble is not dog food, its processed food. I think there are several good reasons your dog never did well on cooked or raw. The main one being you mentioned you fed oats, flax seed, wheat germ, pumpkin on a home cooked diet to supplement the meat. Thats all well and good, if you were preparing a balanced meal for yourself - you've got fiber, carbs, plant based Omega 3's. Great, right? OMG, no! You just listed close to every allergen or stool looseining food that is not appropriate for a basically carniverous animal  lol - You're not alone, its a mistake many, many people make with home prepared diets for dogs! We base their needs on what ours are and the results were naturally disasterous. 
Lets start with the flax seed oil. I have many who cannot tolerate it, and while its very high in Omega 3's it will inevitably cause hot spots or rashes on my succeptable dogs. The problem with flax is that its probably the healthiest supplementation to a human diet, because we thrive on plant based nutrients - but dogs don't need plant based foods! Give 'em fish oil for the Omega 3's, because its an animal based oil. Next - the pumpkin is pure fiber. It will sometimes help with loose stools when given in very small amounts, becuase excess fiber has a hardening effect on the bowel movements. *EXCESS FIBER IS WHY DOG FOOD WILL FIRM UP STOOLS IN SOME DOGS* But you were also giving oats, which is a major cause for loose poo, and I've noticed some brands (usually generic ones) do a number on the stomach. Oatmeal is the only grain I feed, and this is given sparingly, once or twice a week, usually if they've had too much bone  It should not be a staple in a canine diet, however. 
Wheat germ, or any wheat product, is probably the #1 food allergen for dogs next to beef & soy. No wheat products are appropriate for dogs and in most will cause major allergic reactions - BTW, allergies are not just itching and skin problems. Loose and excessive stool is a sign of allergy problems.
I don't care for most homecooked diets because they are beyond excessive with grains and supplementation. Leave out all the extras such as veggies, fruits, grains - DOGS DON'T NEED THEM! A grain based diet is NOT balanced for dogs! Stick to mainly meat and maybe add one carbohydrate source, such as rice or oatmeal, but just ONE, and it needs to make up no more than 10-15% of the diet. 
As for raw, yes, maybe your dog just does not do well on raw. But maybe your dog would have done better with chicken or beef or pork or lamb instead of turkey. One of mine can't handle pork, and we were having some problems with the diet until I realized what the culprit was. 
Have you also considered this dog may have colitis or underlying parasite or immune system issues? That would come to the surface on the new diet because there were, I'm presuming, less or no carbs on the raw diet you were feeding, nothing to cover up the problem. I have one with colitis who cannot stomach 99% of kibble and can't eat homecooked either. She needs grain free raw, and nothing else. Otherwise, we'll get the pooping 10x a day and its the consistancy of water  If you were feeding any sort of plant based oils, grains or vegetables on raw, I seriously think that and nothign else could have been your problem. Again, dogs just don't need these extraneous things, and the plant based foods in their kibble may not effect them the same way as the natural product due to the binding effects of the pulp/fiber matter used to harden the stool. 
Sometimes home prepared diets call for troubleshooting. It can be an allergen or just that the dog has a residual problem coming to the surface on a healthier diet. I've seen it before & walked such dogs through it with appropriate medicating or holistic supplementation. Sometimes worms were passed, and it wasn't the diet givign them the worms - everything was being flushed out of the intestines because the normal bowel function had been slowed down with the cumbersome task of processing grains. Dogs just don't have the digestive system for grains!
I'll say it again, no, probably not all dogs will do well on raw, but I think most of the problems attributed to raw are due to inappropriate feeding practices. Don't make the diet so complicated & throw out the window the concept of a balanced diet for dogs that has any sort of plant matter. Its muscle meat, offal, bones. Thats all a dog needs & when we stray from this, yeah, problems arise.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Feeding raw or kibble is a personal decision that I don't think anyone should be judged for. It's not a measure of how much somone loves their dog 

That said, as we switch a dog to raw we always give a course of flagyl prophylactically to avoid Big D. Their gut has to make a transition and adjust the bacteria levels. We like to avoid an inflamed gut if at all possible. Never had any problems doing it that way.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

TheChinClique said:


> I will not feed RAW, either. High protein is NOT good for all dogs...which is a big part of this diet. I know that dogs are naturally carnivores, but they are very adaptable and one of the oldest living dogs in the world was fed a VEGAN diet!!



RAW IS NOT HIGH PROTEIN!!!!! Not in any way, shape or form. Chicken, for example, is approximately 18% protein. Also, the oldest living dog is an ACD mix who hunted for his food & ate scraps from the owner's table ...


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I lost a dear love to bloat when feeding kibble and love greys is right- its a personal decission and commitment.. To me- I would rather add to my grocery list than go though a bloat again from swollen kibble.. I agree to disagree with the OP..



UrbanBeagles said:


> RAW IS NOT HIGH PROTEIN!!!!! Not in any way, shape or form. Chicken, for example, is approximately 18% protein. Also, the oldest living dog is an ACD mix who hunted for his food & ate scraps from the owner's table ...


 High protein also causes poor bone growth and inbalence.. Please do research. High protein is not always good for bone.. It makes calcium deposits etc.. Sorry- uh huh- not convincing me as with me the proof is in the pudding of over 20 years feeding raw.. And seeing the results.. You do what you want- but I know what I know.. We agree to disagree..

Take a look at this- notice it states if you do not know how to do raw- dont- but shows how bad the kibble industry is.. You need the sound on.. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpoOUaP256g


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

UrbanBeagles said:


> RAW IS NOT HIGH PROTEIN!!!!! Not in any way, shape or form. Chicken, for example, is approximately 18% protein. Also, the oldest living dog is an ACD mix who hunted for his food & ate scraps from the owner's table ...


I said one of the oldest living dogs in the world, not THE oldest living dog, and from what I have read RAW is supposed to be high protein...all of the RAW sites I have seen have advocated a CARNIVORE diet...how is that not high in protein? Chicken may only be 18%, but I doubt most who are feeding RAW simply feed chicken...I have seen more commonly that red meat is used.


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> That said, as we switch a dog to raw we always give a course of flagyl prophylactically to avoid Big D. Their gut has to make a transition and adjust the bacteria levels. We like to avoid an inflamed gut if at all possible. Never had any problems doing it that way.


Oh...maybe that would have made a big difference in her bowels...poor Orch. 

Again, I just posted this so that people can see that RAW isn't for every dog. 

I also don't believe that my dog has colitis. I think that's going a very long way to prove a point, especially considering that my dog has outstanding health (knock on wood).  

In my opinion and from my experiences, not all dogs do well on RAW. My mentor does not like RAW feeding and several of the other quality breeders that I know choose not to feed RAW for similar reasons as I've stated. 

As for the dog food industry- all industry has problems. The Human food industry has problems, LOL! I'm not saying its right, but using that as an argument doesn't make sense to me. 

If you want to say that RAW feeding is better then feeding Innova, then show me a study, so that I can get the information for myself. 

Otherwise, it's just my opinion against yours. You're free to have your opinion. I've admitted that RAW can be good for some dogs under the right circumstances. All I'm saying is that kibble did more for Orchid then feeding her RAW. 

Yep- that's right. This post is based off of my personal circumstances. I don't have anything to back up my post but what I've had to deal with and witness for myself. 

You'll NEVER convince me that RAW or BARF diets are easy to do for all of the reasons I've mentioned above and more. 

I'm a kibble feeder and I truly feel that I'm doing what's best for my dog. Does it make me less of an owner? Heck no! My dog is gorgeous, happy, healthy, has good muscle tone, and is FULL of energy. 

The proof is in the pudding for me too, Bmom.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

There are studies that prove and disprove myths about high protein content, the most common being that it's hard on the kidneys.

I don't know if I buy into either side honestly.

I agree with lovemygreys. There are some fantastic kibbles out there and I'm sure Snowshoe errr NorthernLights, lol, feeds one of them. I know a whack of dogs that are healthy as can be on kibble diets. Dogs that live as long or longer than breed averages. Dogs that are active, have gleaming coats etc etc.

It's a personal choice and my personal opinion is if you feed a good kibble, it's likely you'll have a healthy dog. And if problems arise that can be directly linked to specifically a kibble diet, looking into alternative ideas, like raw or barf should be considered though. As I've done with Roxy, even though there is no conclusive evidence that shows grains can be directly linked to allergies, it's "out there"... *dun dun dun* LMAO!

We're getting ready to go back on raw, I have to get a reliable supplier of our supplement that we'll be using, the meat's all sorted out, but for the mean time I just got a bag of go!'s grain free kibble. Expensive as all out, but fabulous ingredients. Before that, they were on Fromm's Adult star, and they did awesome. Granted Roxy was suffering from allergies, so it's not fair to say that going back on the kibble is what made her healthier, because she's on steroids.

Before I had even started raw, Roxy used to throw up any kind of cooked meat other than ham. It was a joke, because I'm the same way! She'd beg and drool to eat it, but within five minutes she'd be puking.

I figured raw would go the same way, but I was wrong. Roxy LOVES raw meat, not puked once from it. I've never seen runny stools from raw either. Not even when we switched cold turkey to NV.

*shrugs* Personal decision.

IMO, if someone didn't even have a reason for not feeding raw (like Orchid got sick) I wouldn't judge them. With everything else going on in life, some people don't have the time to research, prepare etc etc. As lovemygreys said, it doesn't make them love their dogs any less.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Is agree that it is a personal choice and we as dog lovers need to do what is best for our individual dogs. The part about dogs on raw living longer is hard to prove. I have seen dogs living on Purina (crap food) that lived well past the normal life expectancy for the breed. I myself feed what I believe to be a much better quality food and most of my dogs have lived over the average life expectancy for the breed. When I was a kid growing up my parents bought Purina. My Rottie lived to be well over 14 years old. Now, I am not saying that Raw is bad either. In fact I am looking into the idea. Haven't made the choice to go all the way with that yet. So far I am just adding meat (Seared) to the kibble. My dogs on Kibble alone have always had super shiny coats and are the picture of health. At least after I have had them for awhile. Most of them do not start out that way. When I did offer raw to my dogs they stuck their noses up in the air and walked out of the room. So far, they expect me to cook it for them. LOL I think we all want what is best for our dogs. What is best might very well be different for different individuals.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I feed a raw diet, have for eight years...... 

however,..... as with any kibble 

it is not a once size fits all thing....... 

every dog will not do well on raw..... and every dog will not do well on kibble.... my boy puppies actually were getting a kibble for lunch when the petsitter comes to let them out.... its easier for her and there are times that I can't feed raw.... (I go across to Canada alot and its hard to get raw food across the border)..... so .... but Emmett has loose stool every time..... 

I see alot of posts about what is the best food ..... what is the best kibble.....???? 

there is no best ......... there is no best food..... and when you are comparing better brands of kibble there is no best...... (not comparing kibbles and bits to Artemis, or Wellness) the reality is the best food, is the one your dog does well on..... regardless of whether it is a kibble or a raw diet.... 

you tried it ...... it didn't work..... 

if it ain't broke don't fix it. 
s


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Excellent post Shalva! 

I agree wholeheartedly about "higher end" brands as well. I admit, I went on my Wellness rant and rave months ago because Roxy had chronic diarrhea on their Superfive mix and Whitefish and Sweet Potatoe, but since have heard many people's dogs do just fine on it. That was before they made the changes to how they processed their food, I hear since it's dropped a bit, but then it was still known as a great brand, and Roxy just didn't take to it.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

I think that what ever works on a person's dogs best, that is what should be fed; NOT, what is most trendy, or what everyone 'says' they should feed. 

There are great foods, and diets out there; RAW and Kibble included...nuf said...


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I agree that it depends on the person and their dog(s) what works best. I had done a lot of research on RAW and also bought a lot of meat to start it. We didn't have the same problems as Snowshoe, but Bridgette absolutely refused to eat it. I read that this was normal and the best way to allow the dog to acclimate to the diet is to not give up. I put the meat down and if she didn't eat it I picked it up and tried again next mealtime. 

However, after about 3-4 mealtimes with a little sniff and that's it, I had second thoughts. She then picked up some of the meat and literally tried to gag it down as if it was the worst thing she'd ever touched. I felt awful, but really wanted to make the switch. We tried again next meal time and she just did the same thing as if she really was forcing the food down. I even tried a small variety of thing, but she was either going to gag down a tiny bit of it or just not eat at all.

Needless to say we gave up on RAW and have been giving her Natural Balance...now Salmon and Sweet Potato because of allergies.

I have recently done more research on RAW and am glad we decided not to go ahead with it. While I don't have a problem with anyone feeding RAW I think there are some risks with it. Dogs CAN get salmonella and other bacterial problems contrary to what many think. It is much more rare for dogs to get salmonella, but some dogs will be fine on RAW for a while and then suddenly become violently ill. Working for a vet now I have been able to ask my vet/boss about RAW. 

A lot of vets have terrible views on "good" dog eating habits, but I trust Dr. Ms opinion whole heartedly. He feeds great kibble to his dogs and despite the other vet wanting to sell all the Science Diet she can he always suggests people go to the feed store and buy a much better brand. Anyway, he knew has seen 3 dogs over the last year that had all been on RAW years and suddenly become violently, violently ill and came to find out they had indeed gotten salmonella. He said it's quite rare, but it could happen and one of the dogs died from it. I just don't like that risk at all.

That being said he also says that if someone is willing to hunt their own meat or buy from a VERY good, RELIABLE source he totally condones RAW feeding and thinks it's just as healthy as a GOOD kibble.


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

> While I don't have a problem with anyone feeding RAW I think there are some risks with it.


Exactly. Which is really the whole point of my post. When the benefits outweigh the risks for a dog, then I'm all for it. 

But, when you have an otherwise very healthy dog, as Shalva said,


> if it ain't broke don't fix it.


While it's great to encourage new dog owners, and people new to this board to feed a better food, it's important that they have all the information. 

IMHO- if you're going to encourage RAW feeding, then look at the risks and benefits before you make such a big change. I think RAW is hard to do well.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

NorthernLights said:


> Exactly. Which is really the whole point of my post. When the benefits outweigh the risks for a dog, then I'm all for it.
> 
> But, when you have an otherwise very healthy dog, as Shalva said,
> 
> ...


see and here is where I will disagree...... 

Tell me the risks please????? 

simply because your dog did not do well on a raw diet does not mean that there are risks..... it means that your dog did not do well on it..... 

I had been given my new puppy emmett kibble for lunch ..... and ya know what every time I did he had horrendous "dire rear" so I tried him on a couple other better kibbles and ya know what.... same thing..... 

My connor is the one that started us on raw diet to begin with because he couldn't tolerate kibble at all..... bad bloody stool when he ate kibble.... 

that does not mean there are risks associated with kibble.... what it means is that my dogs do not do well on kibble .... period..... 

this is no different than someone saying my dog didn't do well on Canidae or Innova.... it doesn't mean there are risks.... it means your dog didn't do well in the same manner as some people can eat hot sausages and some people get heartburn...... 

Your dog didn't do well on kibble and you were not invested in the process enough to figure out why..... thats ok..... its not a slam it is what it is ..... in the same way that Emmett didn't do well on kibble for lunch and ya know what I was not invested enough in finding a good kibble he could eat.... so I took him off...... 

that is very different from a safety and risk issue..... 

Now I do believe that real foods must be better than anything you can buy in a bag with a shelf life of six months for 40 bucks...... absolutely I do...... but I also recognize that a raw diet is not for everyone..... is it more work.... possibly at the beginning but its just more mental energy than anything.... trying to figure it out..... and once you got it in your brain its takes me no longer to feed my seven dogs..... than it did to scoop kibble..... and while some folks make their raw diets really complicated.... my attitude is "variety is the spice of life" it all works out in the wash..... I just fed my dogs..... 7 of them..... took me not ten minutes..... I pulled a tube of meat out of the freezer last night.... it thawed..... I dumped it in a bowl.... added some cottage cheese and gave cuinn his medicine..... 

Yesterday I baked some sweet potato's and they had those for breakfast.... baked em while I was doing some work.... and dumped them in a bowl for dinner..... 

I think there is a huge difference between some dogs don't do well on raw/ some dogs don't do well on kibble 

AND 

there are risks to feeding raw/there are risks to feeding kibble. 

S


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

You don't think that salmonella is a risk? What would you call that? I think that's a pretty big deal! 


Yes, there are risks to kibble. I never said that there weren't risks to kibble.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Please re-read the myths on raw. Dogs have more acids in their gut and higher body temp than we do for number one. Salmonilla, unless the meat wasn't fresh to start with, is so far a remote possiblity its not even funny. Even then a dog would eat carrion as well.. Additionally its long since proven that dogs have more antibiotics on their tongues and mouth than we do.. The mouth and tongue is not just to eat, but also to heal themselves in the event of a wound on their body.. 
My guess is raw didnt work for your dog- for whatever reason. I however have never had a problem, nor has anyone I have known that also feeds raw as well. And my personal experience is I had a dog that bloated on kibble.. Heartbreaking to say the least.. ( with no evidence at all to support a genetic disposition to bloat either..) When I have to put my dogs on kibble, I sweat it the whole time. I fast them when I have to switch, and fast to switch them back on their regular raw diet. If you do not know how to feed raw- thats fine- I would then rather you not.. To me its no more work than mixing kibble. With a deep chested breed, I would have to soak the kibble anyway if I did feed it- so that time is the same to me as making their organ mash mix, and chopping chicken.. I spend time making my own meals- why wouldnt I take the time to make theirs???
/edit- additonally - it was long since proven with Jasmine her immune system was shutting down on kibble- and a good one at that. She has recovered SOLELY because of eating a raw diet. And this fact is actually why we adopted her knowing we already fed a raw diet- and the only reason we were considered to be able to adopt her./

Additionally- I have to chuckle at some people. On another forum when we use to discuss raw diet- I got bashed! I must have been the only raw diet feeder on the forum. Then the recalls started- and people were panicking- and switching. I was typing my fingers off trying to help people. The joke came a month later when the newly transition to raw people started to really notice the difference in their dogs! It was pages and pages of " OMG my dog has built such wonderful muscle! the skin allergies are gone- my dog has more focus and energy- .. or I just got back from the vet and my dogs arthritus is gone.. etc etc etc.. " I just sat back and giggled- so wanting to say " I TOLD YOU so..".... lol


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

I agree- when RAW works well for a dog, the results are amazing. Plus, you had a really good reason for feeding RAW. 

Sorry about your baby and the bloat. Keeshonden are suseptible (sp?) to bloat, too, but it's not nearly as common. 

I wish that RAW had worked for my bitch. I wish that cooking had worked for her. Strange that kibble is what she can tolerate, but nothing else. 

As for the salmonella- it may be that its a rare thing. All I'm trying to do is to just open the discussion about RAW. 

Lots of people say that it's the ultimate diet. Maybe it is. But, I rarely see anyone giving the down falls of it- on this forum, anyway. Sorry you got bashed on the other. It sucks to get bashed for an opinion or personal experience. 

Any diet is going to have good points and bad points. I think that the good and bad should be open for discussion about any type of diet.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

NorthernLights said:


> You don't think that salmonella is a risk? What would you call that? I think that's a pretty big deal!
> 
> 
> Yes, there are risks to kibble. I never said that there weren't risks to kibble.



borzoimom 
hit the nail on the head 
I generally don't even bother on this food forum..... but this drives me nuts.... 

You don't wanna feed raw DON'T FEED IT 
who cares.....????? 

but spouting off scare tactics is not appropriate either..... 

because ya know what 
every time I put connor on kibble he shoots blood out of his butt 
Emmett has diarrhea 

Borzoimoms dog bloated

cuinns seizures increase on kibble.... and ya know that is a common finding amongst people with epileptic dogs..... that seizures improve on raw and increase on kibble 

lets not even discuss concerns about cancers and such and how many dogs have allergy issues on kibble due to the grains.... or irritable bowel and collitis I can name several dogs that had to be euthanized due to collitis on kibble and that was where connor was headed before we switched him to raw. 

so lets talk about risks..... not to mention the recent pet food scare where peoples dogs were dying because they were trusting a corporation to make nutritional decisions for their dogs...and put their dogs over the bottom line... or the dogs that get sick because the manufacturer changes the formulation of the food and doesn't tell anyone..... 

so you wanna talk about risks..... there talk about risks..... 

personally I dont care what you feed.

feed what your dog does best on..... but passing along myths and scare stories.... come on ...... 

there is gonna be a dog out there that gets hurt on everything..... you go and talk about salmonella but you didn't quit feeding raw because your dog got salmonella! you stopped because your dog didn't do well on it..... 

everyone I know feeds raw.... I have a pile of puppies all eating raw.... many of my friends have fed large numbers of dogs raw food for years longer than me..... and in all of these people I have not heard of one dog getting salmonella..... 

do dogs get it absolutely but I dont know any and i know lots of dogs on raw.... If they are already immune compromised perhaps or if the food is bad perhaps.... 

so tell me the other risks of feeding a raw diet...... 

S


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Northern- what exactly did you try to feed when you tried raw.. Maybe I see where the imbalence was. Please list every thing you use, how you prepared- including how long you let the meat warm up on the counter after taking it out of the refrigerator etc. Try to be as specific as possible. 
Hottie got injured as a pup. Eating raw ( chicken cartiledge) has long been proven to help prevent arthritus- something that would have made his life miserable. Femka had a ton of problems when we got her. And except for a crash with her back, has lived quite well.. Zubin and Galina I can't really comment on because they have eaten raw since they were puppies. But if you look at the new addition of the video of jasmine- you will see the difference a raw diet did her- almost down right frightening the changes in her.. http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h79/borzoimom4/?action=view&current=arthursthemejazzy.flv


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## nlkeple (Sep 24, 2007)

No matter how flat you make a pancake there will always be two sides.

I do not understand why everyone can't agree that there are indeed risks and benefits of both sides.

Salmonella does happen not all the time but it does (remember this is coming from someone who feeds Raw eggs to her kids).

Bloat and allergies do happen not all the time and not in all dogs but it does happen.

Just because one method is natural does not necessarily mean it is better. I get migraine headaches and have tried all sort of natural methods and none of them have really worked for me but you better believe that the unnatural migraine meds given to my by the doctor sure do. There is a patient at my Chiro's office that swears by the adjustment she gets but that didn't work for me, and really the thing that is most important is that neither of us are suffering from migraines. Isn't that really the same with dogs. 

It seems to me that Nothern was just trying to point out that any one size fits all approach will not work, that in planning a diet the individual dog must be taken into considerations and there are benefits and risks to ALL the different choices.

It seems to me that rather than looking at this method or that method and deciding which is better shouldn't we instead look at our beloved pups and make the decision based on what they do the best on. Lady can't read studies or ingerdient lists but she does know how she feels


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Emerial on his cooking show- and he says this almost every single show he uses eggs- that when people go to the store- they open the box to see if any are cracked, check that and put it in their shopping basket- NOT ONCE checking the experiation date.. Additionally- eggs are dated when put into the boxes- not waiting for storage. I have always used local eggs but mostly because IMO they taste better. The yellow part of the egg stands up higher etc- a true sign of fresh eggs.. Additionally- in raw feeding- you need to use the whole egg- ground up shells and all for calcium etc. 
As far as the pancake idea- The pancake is flat on both sides- granted- but its also made the same way on both sides.. ( at least mine are..)

And keep this in mind about kibble- while stated on labels by AFCO that is not the same as FDA in human food. FDA doesnt regulate pet food.. And only gets involved after numerious reports are made FORCING them to act.


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

Shalva- 

I'm sorry Cuinn seizes at all. I think its very sad for you. I didn't mean to touch a nerve- you must realize that I' m not a mind reader, so it's 100% impossible for me to know when I make a point that may upset someone, a d that they react badly to. 

Please bear in mind, I'm not just posting this for myself. I think it's important for EVERY MEMBER to do research and keep their options open in regards to feeding their dog(s). 

Just because some really respected members of this forum are vocal proponants of the RAW diet doesn't mean its the best thing for everyone. 

Plus, feeding RAW and doing it well requires research and dedication. I think its important that members understand what they're getting into, both good and bad. 

*Again, and I repeat- there are risks to any diet. It's really about acessing what YOUR INDIVIDUAL DOGS DO BEST ON*

I just think it's silly when people say that one method of feeding is the be all end all. 

Borzoi mom- I started out with Turkey Necks and RAW bones. I didn't actually sit them on the counter, I defrosted them in the microwave. I was told to stay away from pork in general, and I was told to start feeding beef when the dog got used to the turkey necks. 

Since she was technically a puppy, she got as much as she wanted of the turkey necks. That ususally turned out to be less then a whole one.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

NorthernLights said:


> Shalva-
> 
> Borzoi mom- I started out with Turkey Necks and RAW bones. I didn't actually sit them on the counter, I defrosted them in the microwave. I was told to stay away from pork in general, and I was told to start feeding beef when the dog got used to the turkey necks.
> 
> Since she was technically a puppy, she got as much as she wanted of the turkey necks. That ususally turned out to be less then a whole one.


 Step one- *THERE was the source *of your problem. When defrosting in the microwave, you cooked the blood enzymes needed for proper digestion. No meat should be cooked in anyway- shape or form. I defrost mine on the counter and if absolutely necessary warm water while the meat is in the bag. 
Number two- I do hope you did not heat the bones in anyway either. Cooked bones because a knife in the gut. Also- alot of dogs can not digest turkey. It tends to be lower in blood enzymes number one, and number the chemical ( man what is that name that makes people sleepy) can off set the digestion process lowering the adrenal glands.. Additionally turkey necks are the thickest of the neck bones. Chicken necks would have been much better and easier to digest. I do not even feed turkey necks and all of mine ( except for jazzy) are over 100 pounds or just a bit under it. 
You can do what you want to do- but quite frankly if you wish- try again using TOTALLY RAW chicken like thighs chopped or drumsticks. I am surprised with the process you just typed you didnt have a huge problem! Man- how scary!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

NorthernLights said:


> Shalva-
> 
> I'm sorry Cuinn seizes at all. I think its very sad for you. I didn't mean to touch a nerve- you must realize that I' m not a mind reader, so it's 100% impossible for me to know when I make a point that may upset someone, a d that they react badly to.
> 
> ...


Did you read anything I said above BEFORE 
I have said this a bazillion times.......if I have said it once...... 

so I will say it again


NOTHING WORKS BEST FOR EVERY DOG 

feed what works well for your dog...... do your homework and feed what works for your dog..... 

how else can that be made any clearer...... 

my issue came with the word risk...... there are no more risks to raw food than there are to kibble..... risk implies significant safety issues and there are no more safety issues to raw than to kibble

find what works for your dog and stick to it...... if it ain't broke don't fix it...... 

but I am sick to death of reading scare stories about raw food..... 

some dogs do well on it some dogs don't period 
there are risks to walking across the street..... there are risks to everything in life..... 

but when people start throwing around the "salmonella" word without doing their homework or understanding dog anatomy and how dogs differ from people it drives me nuts...... because it does nothing but scare...... and while it does happen, it is exceedingly rare and often there is an underlying illness that has allowed the bacteria to take hold.... a healthy dog will not have a problem..... 

not everything works for every dog and people in my opinion should be encouraged to find out what works best for there dog and go with it..... but scare tactics annoy me..... 

Most raw feeders here don't feel the need to start an entire thread ..... 

Why I Don't feed Kibble....... 

We answer questions when they come up and make suggestions.... I don't understand the need of kibble feeders to bash raw food.... I just don't get it.... 

feed what you want.... do what works well for you and your dogs..... 
S


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## nlkeple (Sep 24, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> Emerial on his cooking show- and he says this almost every single show he uses eggs- that when people go to the store- they open the box to see if any are cracked, check that and put it in their shopping basket- NOT ONCE checking the experiation date.. Additionally- eggs are dated when put into the boxes- not waiting for storage. I have always used local eggs but mostly because IMO they taste better. The yellow part of the egg stands up higher etc- a true sign of fresh eggs.. Additionally- in raw feeding- you need to use the whole egg- ground up shells and all for calcium etc.
> As far as the pancake idea- The pancake is flat on both sides- granted- but its also made the same way on both sides.. ( at least mine are..)
> 
> And keep this in mind about kibble- while stated on labels by AFCO that is not the same as FDA in human food. FDA doesnt regulate pet food.. And only gets involved after numerious reports are made FORCING them to act.


I try to get my nutritional advice from doctors and nutritionist rather than from celerity chefs 

We eat fresh eggs at home (some are our eggs some come from the neighbors or the farm stand) but if we are camping or visiting relatives we buy organic free range eggs from the supermarket. 

As for the AFCO and the FDA, I try not to rely on either of them. The FDA is a poor excuse for a regulating organization and frequently plays politics with our food and our drugs.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I would still rather feed human grade foods anyday over rements of God knows what..


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> I would still rather feed human grade foods anyday over rements of God knows what..


\

absolutely, me too...... 

the other part of his is that you have someone who didn't learn how to do a raw diet properly, was given very poor advice about how to do a raw diet.... and then there dog looks awful..... so now they rail against a raw diet.... and throw up words like salmonella instead of recognizing that they just didn't do it properly 

it is no different from someone feeding ole Roy and then complaining there dog didn't look good. 


s


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

SAme could be said for feeding kibble.. If you don't know how to properly feed don't do it .. Over feeding or allowing exercise etc you are asking for it.. 
I am sorry OP but I would love to know what idiot told you to use a microwave to defrost raw meat. If you are upset with this- please express your concerns at them.. You have no idea how lucky you are you didnt end up with some serious problems with how you were feeding raw.. I am totally serious!- The microwave changes the molicles of the meat, removes the blood enzymes, removes the cartiledge calcium for absorbing the bone properly, not to mention anything I have forgotten. I am sorry this other person gave you such erronious information about how to prepare it.. Its like someone that gets a shepherd and believes " uh give it gun powder to make it protective"- same outragious information..

Lke if you do not know how to cut toenails- dont do it or you could hit the quick.. Same goes with most of animal care.. If you dont know or dont want to find out how to do it- dont do it..


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

You know Shalva- maybe it's your attitude that I have a problem with, rather then what you're actually saying. 

I don't mind being told that I didn't do something right in regards to 
RAW. But, you're so argumentative and condescending about it that it makes me want to ignore your posts, even if they are rich with helpful information. 

If you are trying to teach someone the error of their ways, why not be gracious about it? 

Just a thought. 

To Borzoi mom- thanks for actually trying to teach me what I did wrong. I appreciate that. I listened to someone who said they'd been doing it for years. I assumed they knew what they were talking about.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

As a medical bochemist I feel compelled to weigh in here on the pros and cons of kibble vs raw...

Raw food can have parasites and bacteria. If you practice good hygiene when preparing the food and serve immediately or freeze for later use then the risk is very low... i.e., do not prepare raw dog food while cooking the family's dinner, wash down all surfaces with 1:20 bleach:water solution, wash your hands properly. Remember that when cleaning that chicken to roast or marinating the raw steak you are coming into contact with the same bacteria as with feeding your dogs raw. I prepare all of my dogs' food for an entire month in 2 hours each month, portion it into daily servings, and don't even touch it when serving. I just dump it into the bowl. So I only contaminate my kitchen once each month with the bulk of raw food for my dogs. On the other hand, I serve my family some source of meat protein almost every night. It compels me to buy about 3 gallons of bleach every month for a household of three people. And if you have any doubts about the effectiveness of bleach, we are required to use a 1:20 solution to clean the lab tables where we work, including the ones with known positive HIV specimens, each shift.

We have received reports of increasing incidences of trichinosis from people who have only eaten US raised pork. It is still rare, but increasing. So, for both my family and my animals, I freeze all pork products for 30 days before serving it. I also do not feed my animals any wild game, wild rabbits, etc because they tend to be loaded with parasites.

Kibble..not out of the woods when considering contaminants. Besides the contaminated products contained within the food (as evidenced by the recent recalls) kibble can forma type of mold created when the grains become rancid due to exposure to conditions outside that suggested by the producers. In other words, if the kibble is shipped to the store in trucks, it sits in extremely hot conditions during certain times of the year. You wouldn't want to travel in the box of that truck when it's 90 degrees outside and neither should food containing grains. But it is allowed because it is not food for human consumption. And we haven't even talked about humidity. We all know how fast mildew (a form of mold) forms in our showers. So think about storing kibble for months in high humidity conditions. 

I feed raw because it allows me to control what my dogs eat and has helped one of my dogs with severe allergies. Probably, if I didn't have a dog with problems I might be tempted to feed a high quality kibble instead. There are several good ones out there. But I watched the recalls this year and even with all the daily info that I receive from the FDA due to my career, I found it very difficult to find a brand that wasn't involved. 

I choose to feed my family a high quality diet. And I wouldn't do any less for my dog. Grocery store kibble is like feeding your family fast food. Buying food at Whole Foods Market (and others like it) provides a cleaner source of food and a higher nutritional value. So if I were to buy kibble I would choose an independent store that has a quick turnover of inventory and carries high quality brands, just as I choose to feed my family something better than fast food.


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## nlkeple (Sep 24, 2007)

Most human food is made from remnants of god knows what and even meats and things in their original, natural forms are injected and treated with god knows what and it is stored and usually shipped in god know what kid of conditions. 
Now let say for argument sake that natural organic free range meats are 100% safe (I don't personally believe in absolutes but lets pretend for the sake of discussion). For non organic non free range situations can you truly make that claim of safety about the things done to, fed to, and injected into the animal before it became meat? 
Really even if organic there is no guarantee contamination can still happen. 
So unless you mean to tell me that you tend your own organic flock of animals and that you allow them free range on land that is pristine, AND that you alone and in charge of slaughtering, butchering, storing and of course sanitizing the area (with dog friendly products) AND that you never ever make mistakes...unless you can tell me all of those things then really there are no guarantees. 

Now of course there are plenty (arguably more) possibilities of risk in packaged food and I am sure (based on you having done I assume a lot of research on this issue) that you are well versed in what they are, but really what I am trying to say is that there are risks to any diet choice just like with everything else in life, but what one person feels is a risk, is no big deal to another person, and what works wonderfully for some dogs creates bad outcomes for other dogs. I think that Northern is right when she/he says that RAW was not a good choice for Orchid and I think you are right when you say that it is wonderful choice for your pup/pups. Why can't everyone be right?


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

NorthernLights said:


> You know Shalva- maybe it's your attitude that I have a problem with, rather then what you're actually saying.
> ....
> To Borzoi mom- thanks for actually trying to teach me what I did wrong. I appreciate that. I listened to someone who said they'd been doing it for years. I assumed they knew what they were talking about.


 Man you are so lucky the dog didnt get pancretitus, or ruptured the intestines or any number of horrid thoughts.. 
I do understand Shalva though Northern lights.. Please try to understand her point. People makes statements all the time about raw diet without being properly informed. Those of us that do it- we know. But I can tell you for a fact- alot of what worried you as long since posted on myths of raw diet that was posted like on the first few pages.. 
If you want to try raw again- just let one of us that know how, and we are more than happy to help. I would give you the same receipe I feed my own dogs.. Now- question- would I endanger my own beloved pets? lol.. ( I think you get my point.. ) I started feeding raw in 1984 with the whole house on raw in 1991. 
Shalva knows raw as well as I do I would care to bet.. !!! 
__________________________________________________________


nlkeple said:


> Most human food is made from remnants of god knows what and even meats and things in their original, natural forms are injected and treated with god knows what and it is stored and usually shipped in god know what kid of conditions.
> ....QUOTE]
> 
> Incorrect. The basis on raw feeding is using un-processed foods. Additionally accept for human consumption. They can not use the harshness of chemicals in our foods.. We agree to disagree- obviously regardless of all these pages on the basis behind raw diet, you just do not understand or have taken another course.. At least with FDA foods there is some kind of regulation in place. It has long been the joke with AFFco that you can get 25 percent protein and 15 percent fat by soaking cow leather in oil.. lol.. 25 percent protein and 15 percent fat- but is it digestable??? uh no!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

NorthernLights said:


> You know Shalva- maybe it's your attitude that I have a problem with, rather then what you're actually saying.
> 
> I don't mind being told that I didn't do something right in regards to
> RAW. But, you're so argumentative and condescending about it that it makes me want to ignore your posts, even if they are rich with helpful information.


ignore away...... 

but don't think that if you are going to make statements that are clearly incorrect and scare people who may be trying to do something better for their dog because it didn't work for you (because you didn't do it correctly) then I am going to balance that information..... 

it is your perogative to choose to read what I write or not..... but if incorrect information is given out then I am going to respond to that. Not to mention that I don't like having what I write twisted around..... it kinda gets on my nerves. 

S


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

We probably should have asked her on page one what she did to feed the raw.. lol.. That would have saved uh what- 4 pages??? lol.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

Wow, I didn't know people could get as fired up about food as they do about the alpha rolling that's the usual hot topic. I felt guilty trying to tell my sister-in-law that Beneful might not be the best food. She loves the different colors of food in the bag. Her dog wouldn't eat it but she kept trying. I gave her my bag of Science Diet when I switched to Solid Gold. At least that was a step up for my nephew dog and mine too. Funny thing is, she feeds her human son better than I feed my kids.


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## nlkeple (Sep 24, 2007)

nlkeple said:


> and even meats and things in their original, natural forms are injected and treated with god knows what and it is stored and usually shipped in god know what kid of conditions.



Your quote choice seemed a little bit selective to me the very first line did mention human food in general but the entire rest of the post was related to food in in its natural form (ie unprocessed meat). I do recognize that RAW does not mean stouffers frozen lasagna (or any other sillyness) and that is why the whole rest of the post specifically addressed meat


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> We probably should have asked her on page one what she did to feed the raw.. lol.. That would have saved uh what- 4 pages??? lol.



no kidding.... but ya know my response was not to even what she fed or didn't feed.... it was more in response to the generalizations 

it was good to see that the problem was NOT the raw diet at all but rather that this had nothing to do with raw and rather the lack of knowledge on the part of the OP about how to put together a raw diet and the poor advice she had been given. 

the whole screaming salmonella thing drives me nuts though.... I will be honest about that.... vets use that word as a scare tactic all the time....


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

( trying not to giggle).. of course they do.. how could they sell their science diet? lol.. My vets joke " We never get to see your pretty dogs but yearly exam and heart worm tests..".. lol. The real joke is that of the 7 vets in that office, 4 have switched to raw after seeing- MY DOGS! lollll


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> ( trying not to giggle).. of course they do.. how could they sell their science diet? lol.. My vets joke " We never get to see your pretty dogs but yearly exam and heart worm tests..".. lol. The real joke is that of the 7 vets in that office, 4 have switched to raw after seeing- MY DOGS! lollll


same here 
my vet originally hated it..... 
but he and several of his techs are now exploring a switch.... 
can't argue with success.

s


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

They do not carry science diet anymore ( expect the perscription type) and have a brochure in their office on all the tables.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I think everyone is mis-interpreting Snowshoe (Northern Lights) post. She is NOT trying to scare people off of RAW. To me it's very obvious that was not and is not her point here. She has said, in bold type and in red, bold type that there CAN be risks in ANY diet, kibble, RAW and homecooked. 

Any food prepared wrong, or cheaply made can have risks. That is common sense. 

Shalva, I see your point and I have seen your dogs so I think you are proof that RAW feeding does wonders, but I also think it's important for everyone to realize that there CAN be risks to their pets diets.

NO I don't think that salmonella is a BIG risk of RAW feeding, but it is NOT impossible. Like I said before my vet/boss met a dog that was on RAW for 6 years and suddenly became violently ill with salmonella. The dog had had no problems previously. NO I don't think salmonella should be thrown around or even used to tell people not to feed RAW, but I don't think anyone should be trying to tell people there is a zero risk of it and other bacterial problems...then you are throwing out false information too.

I am not against RAW, but I agree that people should do what they feel is best for their dog. It IS a personal choice and I really don't think that Snowshoe is trying to scare people off of RAW feeding as she said several times that it's what works for your dog.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)




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## dusty&lulusmom (Jul 30, 2007)

I must say Orchid is a beautiful looking dog. I have to agree that not all diets work for all people. I try to stay open minded so that I can learn and this will benefit my dogs. Right now I feed a diet of 1/2 kibble and 1/2 homecooked. I will admit that I am leaning towards introducing "semi-raw". I will begin by replacing two meals with the meat closer to raw than cooked and see how the dogs handle this. It is important to reasearch, stay open minded and listen to others experiences and of course pay close attention to your dogs reaction to changes. Just sharing my opinion. I like reading everyone else's opinions it has really helped me and in the long run I know my dogs are on the road to better health.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


>


 May I have more butter on mine please? lol..


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

absolutely!
I would love to reply, but you and Shalva type whats on my mind! I'll just sit here and add to rep points as I see fit and enjoy the show.
I personally give up. 
Bash raw if thats what "you" so desire to do. 
I only have one question on the fact that the raw went so horrible ( and holy crap,lets face it... for *some* dogs, it can! We dont deny that right?? However just not very many) 
My question is... where were the broad spectrum digestive enzymes and pre/probiotics during the transition? Not all dogs need it, however some may... I am yet to see any mention of that?!?!

However, I will sit back and watch the thread run....

**passes the butter**


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Inga said:


> The part about dogs on raw living longer is hard to prove. I have seen dogs living on Purina (crap food) that lived well past the normal life expectancy for the breed. I myself feed what I believe to be a much better quality food and most of my dogs have lived over the average life expectancy for the breed. When I was a kid growing up my parents bought Purina. My Rottie lived to be well over 14 years old. our dogs.



I'm not saying its THE diet for all dogs either, but just wanted say that for me, its not about which food makes the dog live the longest. Of course, we all want our dogs to live every extra minute that is genetically possible. Whou wouldn't want their dog to live longer? I know there are dogs eating Purina, Pedigree, Ol' Roy who are living long lives. I don't dispute that. Actually, one of my neighbors just lost an 15 year old Brittany spaniel who was fed whatever crap was on sale, sometimes Mainstay, which IMHO is the worst dog food in existance. Wow, she lived to be 15 years old on grocery store cheap dry kibble - thats awesome, right? Take a closer look at the picture I'm painting, because this dog was absolutely RIGID with arthritis for the past several years. She's had an open sore on her back (I think its a hot spot, not sure) since I moved here in 2002. It covered a good 6 inches wide and maybe 8 inches across. This wasn't a neglectful owner, and he did have her taken to the Vet for it, but the sore kept returning. Her teeth rotted out of her mouth a long time ago. She's had a lump removed between her toes two years ago and finally passed away from oral cancer this September. She was a lazy, nasty SMELLY old dog. 

Now, I have a few dogs with special needs - one has epilepsy & intervertebral disc disease, the other has a grade 3 heart murmur & colitis, another has immune system problems which include inhalant/food allergies ... he ahd pneumonia as a pup  My first Beagle had intervertebral disc disease as well. From the time she was about 4 years old until she passed away @ the age of 6-7 from osteosarcoma (but also had kidney issues going on at the time she died), she slipped a disc in her back every 6 months. She ate Mighty Dog, and we could always find where she was by following the doggy odor. She REEKED. 

For my dogs, I chose to go with raw because of the quality of life it gives them. The dog with epilepsy/back problems is 7. He was diagnosed with the beginnings of disc disease when he was 3yrs old and got hurt when my Shepherd played too rough with him. He has never slipped a disc. He has his lazier days and occasionally he gets sore, but he's active and energetic and up for a good walk any day! There IS a difference in his ability to climb stairs, etc. when on raw vs. even the best of kibbles. He was a pet store puppy, and had weakness of the rear legs from spending so much time in a cage - this persisted until he was put on raw - and it directly affected his mobility for the better! My pup w/ colitis & a heart murmur is actually one of the only ones I have for which eating kibble simply is not an option. Her stools on raw are firm, her heavy water consumption decreases, therefore she does not constantly need to urinate. She does well with exercize now and has built up muscle mass - I can't imagine that her heart muscle isn't benefiting as well. My dog with immune problem is about to turn 7. His teeth are sparkling. He has tartar in the middle of the back carnassal teeth, nowhere else. I don't think ti will ever get to the point he needs a dental. He is as lean and muscular as a 2 year old dog in the prime of life. The only grey he has is a bit of a thin mustache on the very tip of his muzzle - the rest of his coat is soft & bright black. He is as active as he was years ago with no hint of arthritis or any other joint problems - which is good for a 65lb. Shepherd mix. He does not appear to be a normal 7 year old large breed dog. 

These dogs, plus my healthy dogs, have benefited from raw and all have an above average quality of life! I don't care if these dogs are living 15+ years or if they might live longer on dog food. I have doubted raw was best at times and was convinced by results after going back to kibble for a while that this is the best way to go for my dogs, and for most. They are all healthy, no "normal" problems of old age or problems associated with the illnesses they were diagnosed with. I think thats all the proof I need  Take it for what its worth ...


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Wimble Woof said:


> I personally give up.
> Bash raw if thats what "you" so desire to do.


Wimble Woof and others...I don't understand why this is what you think this thread is about??...

No one is 'bashing' RAW feeding at all, lLEAST of all the OP. That isn't what the thread was meant to be! 

I think RAW is a great way to go, just not the way that worked for Orchid or Bridgette and it didn't work for some other dogs, but that doesn't mean we are trying to tell everyone that RAW is terrible. Maybe if we had tried other things it would have worked, but that isn't what happened and instead we are feeding great brands of kibble.

I think that if someone is willing to find out all they can about RAW and kibble and the pros and cons of both they can make a much better decision about what is good for their dog. So I don't see why we can't point out our opinion on RAW when everyone else can tell us we don't feed our dogs well because we feed kibble? None of us are saying "oh my god RAW is SO dangerous and your dog WILL get salmonella and die" ROFL...if that was the case then you'd have every reason to get upset.

I think everyone is mis-interpreting the point of this post...which was merely to explain why for Orchid RAW didn't work and not to say that RAW is dangerous or even a bad way to go.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> Wimble Woof and others...I don't understand why this is what you think this thread is about??...
> 
> No one is 'bashing' RAW feeding at all, lLEAST of all the OP. That isn't what the thread was meant to be!
> 
> I think everyone is mis-interpreting the point of this post...which was merely to explain why for Orchid RAW didn't work and not to say that RAW is dangerous or even a bad way to go.


Agreed. It's somewhat interesting to me that several people are screaming about their posts not being read - yet they appear to have neglected doing the same. My god.

Oh, and that whole "most RAW feeders don't feel the need to make a whole thread..." bit, Uh since when? I've seen COUNTLESS threads preaching about RAW and the major downsides to kibble. I've had people try to force their methods down my throat and I've had people try to invoke guilt for supposedly 'slowly killing your dog'. The 'bashing' occurs on both sides, people.


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## SpudFan (Oct 8, 2007)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> Wimble Woof and others...I don't understand why this is what you think this thread is about??...[snip]


To the raw feeders who are so concerned about people being scared off (you know who you are) I strongly recommend you look at your posts. Reading them from the beginning of the thread you come across as raving lunatics. I'm sorry but this is pathetic. This is not a food discussion this is more like a religious debate.

Have you ever seen those wacky vegans who are more political activist then nutritional adviser? Look in the mirror because that is exactly how you come across. You are doing nothing to positively influence people about the positive aspects of the nutritional choice that you have made for your dog but are instead doing a fantastic job of demonstrating all of the characteristics of a first class nut job and are doing a huge disservice to the very item that you are attempting to protect. You have successfully eroded your own credibility and probably damaged people perception of the very item you think you are promoting.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

Spud, I have to agree with you...people get too worked up over little things like that. Somethings work for some people, and for others they don't...plain and simple. Maybe NorthernLights didn't get sufficient information on what to feed with a RAW diet...then again, who's to say that Orchid's body chemistry just didn't work with it? Exactly, nobody knows, she just stated that it didn't work for Orchid...that's not a generalization that it will horribly fail for every dog it is tried on. 
I also agree that it's like fighting a religious war...whats going to come of it? Nothing but a lot of complaining and in the end, nobody wins. I'm not trying to get into this argument at all, just stating what I see from an innocent bystander view, with no opinion either way on feeding either or not. It's a case by case kind of thing, and no matter what either side can argue, if it doesn't work for theirs, it's never going to...So my final thought is? Why can't we all just get along? LOL


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

I have to agree with the last several posters. NL shared a story that happened and is good for people to know...of course it's great to try switching to raw, but I would think of it as the same as switching brands of kibble--you're hoping it's going to work and be "the one" but sometimes it just doesn't work out. We could formulate the ideal diet for humans, but not every human would thrive on it--why should we expect all dogs to do well on a particular diet?

I just think it's a little bit baffling that someone would share their story and then is told that the only reason raw didn't work was because they were doing it all wrong and then be told that they're lucky they didn't kill their dog by feeding raw wrong and if they did it again right all would be fine in the world...and all this coming from the same camp that insists that feeding raw is no more difficult or time-consuming than feeding kibble?? Wow..

NL: just don't bother. I understand what you're saying and I also have my own reasons for not feeding raw. It's important to hear that not ALL dogs do fabulously on a raw diet, because on this board at least, non-raw feeders may be the majority, but are highly overshadowed by a vocal minority. I don't see the raw-bashing that people complain about on this forum. If anything, I see non-raw bashing.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I believe this has been resolved. As it turned out, the OP was given almost dangerious information how to feed raw. With expected results. On page uh 4 ( I think) this information came out. 
In defense of the raw feeders, it would be nice if the other posters would notice that these debates come up over and over. Always resolves the same way- always the same " myths" have to be corrected. Its like having to read the same novel over and over. With all the threads in this forum, doing a prior search might have stopped all this. The title alone was eyebrow raising. It would be similar to me posting something like " Why I would never own a so-in-so breed"... then listing every myth known to man kind adding personal bias and fear..


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## Occy (Oct 3, 2007)

I have one dog who simply cannot have raw food - even the smallest amount sets her off and either gives her poos that are too hard or ones that squirt out.

Ive never really been happy with raw as a stand alone and I probably never will be - I prefered kimithy schultz's stuff to billinghurst but neither fitted our lives - that is me and my dogs.

those who say you kill your dogs if it eats anything but are as bad as religious zealots who tell you if you arent christian youre going to hell.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> I believe this has been resolved. As it turned out, the OP was given almost dangerious information how to feed raw. With expected results. On page uh 4 ( I think) this information came out.
> In defense of the raw feeders, it would be nice if the other posters would notice that these debates come up over and over. Always resolves the same way- always the same " myths" have to be corrected. Its like having to read the same novel over and over. With all the threads in this forum, doing a prior search might have stopped all this. The title alone was eyebrow raising. It would be similar to me posting something like " Why I would never own a so-in-so breed"... then listing every myth known to man kind adding personal bias and fear..


That's true borzoi, but all the same - frustration is not reason to act as some people did in this thread. That will never get a clear point across, but more then likely cause people to back off - as Spud mentioned.

I'm glad the issue was resolved, but really...I am surprised at the manor in which many veteran posters conducted themselves. It doesn't show much for the forum, sometimes.


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

On a slightly different not, I have a question for the experienced Raw feeders,

Most of what's been mentioned here is muscle and bones. Do you feed organs as well? I thought I remembered reading at some point that to do raw correctly, you had to basically provide all types of meats, including organs, otherwise the diet would be incomplete.

Actually, what would you call a "complete" raw diet...and by raw I'm assuming we mean "raw, meaty bone" diet, not BARF diet. Is that correct?


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

poohlp said:


> On a slightly different not, I have a question for the experienced Raw feeders,
> 
> Most of what's been mentioned here is muscle and bones. Do you feed organs as well? I thought I remembered reading at some point that to do raw correctly, you had to basically provide all types of meats, including organs, otherwise the diet would be incomplete.
> 
> Actually, what would you call a "complete" raw diet...and by raw I'm assuming we mean "raw, meaty bone" diet, not BARF diet. Is that correct?


 Yes we feed 10 percent organ meat. ( if not more). My dogs favorites are beef livers, or chicken livers or hearts, tripe.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

poohlp said:


> On a slightly different not, I have a question for the experienced Raw feeders,
> 
> Most of what's been mentioned here is muscle and bones. Do you feed organs as well? I thought I remembered reading at some point that to do raw correctly, you had to basically provide all types of meats, including organs, otherwise the diet would be incomplete.
> 
> Actually, what would you call a "complete" raw diet...and by raw I'm assuming we mean "raw, meaty bone" diet, not BARF diet. Is that correct?


I believe that we all have our own ways of feeding raw after reading all of the different "plans" out there. I believe that mine is more of a "prey model" diet. Althugh some would argue that organs should be fed with every meal in that particular genre of raw menus. 

For my dogs the menu looks somethng like this:

AM meal : always whole poultry with bones and guts
added 1x/week whole egg, 2x/week fish oil

PM meal : 1x/week whole fish
1x/week liver
1x/week organs
1x/week heart
3x/week mostly meat (variety of species), some bone

Also, some people mix all the organs and such into the daily meals because some dogs have a difficult time with a full meal of rich organ meats. Mine must have cast iron guts because they didn't even get the runs the FIRST time I gave it to them. So fo my convenience I feed it as separate meals.

The basic goal of my feeding plan is balance over time. I try to have a variety of meat species (beef, pork, fish, chicken, turkey,..) and the respective organs too. The only thing I avoid is lamb because one of my dogs seems to have an allergy problem with it. And I try to balance the phospohorus : calcium ratios. The easiest way to begin is to watch the stool content. Too much calcium (bones) will cause stools to appear white and chalky. Too much phosporus (meat) will cause runny, dark stools. Most raw feeders I know have become poop experts in the early stages of their transition to raw! 

If I have one that is a tad overweight and I need some filler material I have given a little bit of green beans, carrots, or apples. I do not use grains because again, my allergy dog does not tolerate them and I don't believe it is in the best interest of most dogs.

Since I believe the "proof is in the pudding" and my dogs are looking and feeling fantastic I am pleased with my plan for my dogs. My vet says they look much better than before we started raw. We haven't needed to see a vet for anything other than annual check ups. 

But as with most things, we all interpret the data differently. This is just my plan.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> Wimble Woof and others...I don't understand why this is what you think this thread is about??...
> 
> No one is 'bashing' RAW feeding at all, lLEAST of all the OP. That isn't what the thread was meant to be!


I get the point of the OP, and I m sorry to have not typed that clearly... but what I meant was, feel free to spead myths, and negativity towards raw if you please (not directed to anyone hence the " 's ) 

Now, I too have one dog who just doesnt do well on raw or the higer quality kibbles... does that mean all dogs wont? No, it means mine doesnt.
I have no problems saying that one of my guys is the "odd man out" on raw, now just because it didnt work for him does that mean I stop feeding to the others? No. On that note, this is the dog who did wonderful on Pedigree, but looked like a wild dog when eating Orijen. Its the way he is.

My others are the complete opposite.

I hope that the "manner in which" I came across isnt lumped in with the lunatic generalization especially since this is my second post in this thread ( maybe third if you want to count my pop corn eating dude in there too)

And why cant we all get along??? thats simple, its human nature for not everyone to like everyone or agree with what they have to say.
I just would really enjoy it if atleast people could open their minds and accept that perhaps they arent right... ( I can do it... no problems, but again it may be my lunatic tendancies )


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

FriendsOfZoe said:


> I just think it's a little bit baffling that someone would share their story and then is told that the only reason raw didn't work was because they were doing it all wrong and then be told that they're lucky they didn't kill their dog by feeding raw wrong and if they did it again right all would be fine in the world...and all this coming from the same camp that insists that feeding raw is no more difficult or time-consuming than feeding kibble?? Wow..


That's exactly what I took away from the thread, too. That even following the advice of someone you know and trust can still be wrong, that feeding raw wrong is very dangerous... Uh... I'll stick with what's already working for my dog, thanks.

A couple cases of canned food and a bag of kibble doesn't take up much room in my kitchen, and will last my dog months. I don't have room in my freezer and/or fridge for prepared-in-advance RAW meals for my dog. It's too full of my own frozen pizzas and microwave dinners. Or in other words, my dog may eat kibble, but he eats like a king compared to what I feed myself.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Oh man! That is one heated debate! It's funny how obsessed I've become about dog food. With my family dog at home they just gave her whatever and I never thought to question it. But now I keep wondering if I'm doing the best I can for my dog. I don't think I would want all the cleaning up that goes with a RAW diet. And I also don't know if I'd trust myself to do it right. With all this self doubt about a scoop of kibble and a can of dogfood, well I think trying to pick raw animal parts would be pure panic.

I also think that people need to be a little bit more civil on this forum. People are very quick to jump down other people's throats for not agreeing with them. Part of this is the nature of an internet forum where we miss the subtleties of inflection that normal speech can give us. The other part is...well people get on the defensive because they take everything as a personal attack. I think this was meant to be an open and honest discussion and when people get mean I tend to disagree with them just because I don't like meanness. 

Finally, (off topic) Lorina, my dog eats like a king compared to me too. He is eating Canidae and Innova EVO and I am eating Chef Boyardee. I always really enjoy your posts on this forum. Beavis seems like a really cool dog and you seem like a great dog Mom. I used to think Pekigneses were so weird, but Beavis kind of makes me want one. He could really have a TV show or something.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

LOL I wouldn't call anyone a lunatic...I am the same way about some topics.

I think it's great that people want to defend RAW feeding, I just agree that doing so in the way some people did in this thread would make me a bit skeptical if I was a new person to the forum.

There is a difference between a good debate and people getting pissed off and overreacting to something like the OPs post. (in some cases it's completely reasonable to get pissed off...as in the people who out right say 'raw feeding is deadly') but in this case it was no cause for this much of an argument.

I really do think RAW is a good way to go, but I also think decent kibble is good...it just depends on the dog.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

poohlp said:


> Most of what's been mentioned here is muscle and bones. Do you feed organs as well? I thought I remembered reading at some point that to do raw correctly, you had to basically provide all types of meats, including organs, otherwise the diet would be incomplete.
> 
> Actually, what would you call a "complete" raw diet...and by raw I'm assuming we mean "raw, meaty bone" diet, not BARF diet. Is that correct?



You're absolutely correct - I think most of the raw feeders here, including myself, have moved away from the BARF style diets. Billinghurst'd diet (BARF) was a huge step in the right direction, but when I was following that particular method, thats when we encountered the problems. WAY too much bone. Veggies aren't needed, and that "veggie slop" went through my dogs  It was either constipation or loose stools from the veggies, coat problems from the lack of muscle meat, etc. I know a breeder who fed close to 80-90% bone, only meat they got were organs. She'd take all that nice juicy meat off a chicken breast, and throw the bones to the dogs - and scratched her head in confusion when, after feeding a bitch in whelp this way, the poor dog came down with eclampsia. 

To answer your question, the diet I feed is based around muscle meat. Think of a nice piece of edible bone encased in globs of meat  Raw meaty bones are about 30% of their diet. I feed about 10% organ meat, and the rest is muscle meat. If I feed a bony cut, such as a lamb rib or chicken wing, I add a bit of meat, organs or egg to it. And maybe oatmeal once or twice a week. This particular "recipe" has eliminated constipation & dandruffy coats they had with BARF.


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I think Zoe brought up a great point, and I'm pretty sure on another thread it was brought up.

There are a large number of risks with raw feeding, of course kibble as well.

Getting a complete diet for your dog, while ensuring you have all of the correct information to do so is a big deal.

I personally never really thought of bacteria and such as a risk. I handled all of the meat like I would my own, but I've heard horror stories of dogs that have eaten raw bones and ended up on the surgery table to have them removed. I don't know these dog's personally, so perhaps it's just another myth floating around...

I'm not bashing raw, in fact we're getting ourselves together to get back on the program, but I hate it when people make raw out to be this "easy, 1,2,3 step" diet.

Maybe it's just me, but in the beginning, I was spending more than $500 a month on pre-packaged NV for my dogs because I was so nervous about making a complete diet for my dog's myself.

On one side you have the people preaching it's so easy! No big deal! On the other, people warning you to carefully think out a diet plan, research etc etc. 

IMO, while after some time it may seem easy, but for me, it was and IS pretty nerveracking. BM, you've been feeding RAW longer than I've been alive, so yep, it's going to seem easy as making a bologne sandwich to you!  ROFL!

But I'm a worry wart. And I just want the best for my dogs, and if I feel like my best isn't cutting it, right back onto a high quality, grain-free kibble my dog's will go again! LOL


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Alpha said:


> But I'm a worry wart. And I just want the best for my dogs, and if I feel like my best isn't cutting it, right back onto a high quality, grain-free kibble my dog's will go again! LOL


I completely agree! 

I think that a lot of research is necessary for a good, healthy canine diet period. I do think that if someone is trying to feed RAW without knowing everything they need to know about the diet it can be dangerous...as you guys pointed out with Orchid.

I read a TON of pros and cons of RAW as well as getting all kinds of advice from all kinds of people...for and against RAW. I did begin to try the diet, but upon her not being remotely interested and going 3 1/2 days without eating I just couldn't carry on. I feel like I would have continued too if I hadn't doubted myself.

I worried that I would mess up the combination of ingredients needed to make sure Bridgette was getting ALL the nutrients she needed and at the beginning it is really worrying. Although I know salmonella is very rare in dogs it still worried me that something I'd pick out for her would have a bacteria that would cause her to become severely sick and the worry wasn't worth it to me. I might well try RAW again one day after doing even more extensive research.

As for now I agree with Alpha. Bridgette is doing very well on her grain free and healthy diet of NB kibble so I will stick to it.

If she has problems in the future or if my next dog does I may well try out RAW again. It's not doubt that I will ask you guys for advice too!


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Alpha said:


> I'm not bashing raw, in fact we're getting ourselves together to get back on the program, but I hate it when people make raw out to be this "easy, 1,2,3 step" diet.
> 
> On one side you have the people preaching it's so easy! No big deal! On the other, people warning you to carefully think out a diet plan, research etc etc.


Thats just the thing though, in the begining believe me, I was scared! I had a great mentor who I literally harassed with question upon question, but once you get the hang of it and have done all your research and then see the difference it can make, it does become second nature.
We're not born knowing everything ( although some people may think they are lol) in the beginning when learning something new it seems hard, but once you get the hang of it, it is easy as 1,2,3.


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## houndhugger (Nov 10, 2007)

I had an epileptic boy, and a heart failure boy. Both large breed and both healthy until they reached 13/14 yrs of age. My vet suggested raw as they were failing, (pretty progressive vet)) and i did not do, as concerned about contamination and the way feed animals are raised today as compared to the ol days when raw was fed to dogs. I was doing home cooked once the seizures began. 

Well that was 5 years back.......and now, those beautiful boys are gone.
And I am a raw feeder. With two new souls to care for.
Both my boys are rescues. One- who when at about 1.5 yrs started to have noises in his back leg - on dry. He came to us sick also. And the other who came to us weighing 60 lbs (now 103) severely malnutritioned/sick/ and 1/2 body surface hair missing, and collapsing when walking. Within a week on raw the older boy was walking and the shelter when we visited, could not believe the diff. In fact all the staff was called out to look at him. They were amazed. He is 9/10 years and walks daily for about 1 to 1.5 hrs. He has stifle damage and arthritis.

Raw scared me. The contamination- ecoli/salmonella. The bones and possibility of intestine perforation.

And what kind of quality control is there is in dog food?

So I do my own, I grind whole human grade chicken with bone in. The cartilige in chicken is almost complete and is supposed to support bone/ cartilige/ ligament health. Better than beef. By these guys i believe it!. I'm scared of most bones still..so only give turkey necks. Plus the youngest doesnt know what to do with a hard bone.

I used to buy the most expensive/organic dry (i admit i still do occasionally..I call it their junk food). But I resent the manufactures and their 'healthy ingredients'. They are on the band wagon of humans getting more concerned and health oriented, and they are making it for the dogs for the profit. But the way it comes...is useless and we pay more for something that wont work.
Flax..the wonder. Well flax seed once it is cracked, exposed to heat and light goes rancid and there is no food value. Yes, a good omega...in a sealed/airless/cold pressed container. with no heat. As it comes in dogfood.-.it is useless. Plus dogs absorb omegas better that are animal based, so salmon oil would be better. There are a lot of supposedly healthy things in dog food that are not -once processed. But we pay thru the nose. I do 60$ for a lrg bag,,,,and cringe cause i know what im buying.

Switching a dog to raw ..if their diet has been kibble, it would be like us eating some human grade cheap cereal for years (oops with some vitamin pills thrown in for good measure)) and then eating something raw and uncooked. Like just a carrot. Need digestive enzymes to get the process started.

Anyhow...I look at my boys..who came to me...with beginnings i know nothing about. And I remember my seniors who i had from pups. I'm just trying to do the best by my newest with raw.
I think we all arrive there in our own time, usually from the tragedies of nursing our companions thru some pretty terrible times......i know i dont want to see that with my newest pack. I'm hoping I'm right in the path I've chosen?
Everything they get is human grade be it food or supplements. And man I did my homework! It is expensive..but so are heart meds and seizure meds. but not near as expensive as the cost to ones heart..watching.
Maybe it is just luck/ good genetics- in the end?..all I know is I'm trying to cover the basics and hope for the best.
Like I say, we all arrive there in our own time. But never hurts to look at all the options. Our devoted 4 legged guys- cannot choose their own food.


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