# Training Burnout



## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I did a ridiculous amount of obedience proofing last week, every day I went to a new location and trained there. This is supposed to be a 4 week program, but in combination with the 24/7 rat desensitization training, I'm so completely done that 90% of my walks have been on a flexi, nevermind doing anything more engaging. 

How do you deal with it? How often does it happen to you? Do you have any tricks that get you excited/able to train again?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I pace myself and I break up the "boring" stuff with fun training like tricks, etc. I also take time to just have fun with the dog (no training, just fun hikes up mountains, etc.).

Porsche is a champ! Meeko would have burned out much faster than Porsche. From what you've described I'm pretty sure he would have gotten bored/would have found training not fun anymore.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think you can train too much and burn either you or the dog out. 

I definitely don't train every day or every walk. Hank still doesn't loose leash walk lol. 

I basically focus on things that are either fun or important and train when in the mood. Sometimes we have whole weeks off. Sometimes it's daily. Just depends on how motivated I am.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Lol Porsche is totally a champ. I don't think she burns out in general lol. The stamina on that girl... The more I train her, the more I find her stamina for training increasing. Before I'd notice her start to get tired after a few minutes, but now it's mostly me who runs out of treats/ideas/stamina and she's still staring at me like "what's next?". Unless she's distracted lol, but that doesn't count. 

Porsche is too strong for me to ignore LLW lol. We took a nice heeling walk in a new park today at lunch with lots of people and dogs and she did super well with LLW. But it's the first training (outside of rats) that I've done since like friday... The rat training is taking all of my stamina lol.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Alla said:


> Lol Porsche is totally a champ. I don't think she burns out in general lol. The stamina on that girl... The more I train her, the more I find her stamina for training increasing. Before I'd notice her start to get tired after a few minutes, but now it's mostly me who runs out of treats/ideas/stamina and she's still staring at me like "what's next?". Unless she's distracted lol, but that doesn't count.
> 
> Porsche is too strong for me to ignore LLW lol. We took a nice heeling walk in a new park today at lunch with lots of people and dogs and she did super well with LLW. But it's the first training (outside of rats) that I've done since like friday... The rat training is taking all of my stamina lol.


Yeah that stuff is SO stressful/tiring!!

Whenever I used to bring home a new foster it was a pain in the butt for the first few weeks because we would work intensively on desensitization training.

It's soooo worth it once the training "takes" though!

I guess that's the difference between a working breed and a companion breed


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

taquitos said:


> I also take time to just have fun with the dog (no training, just fun hikes up mountains, etc.).


IMO this can't be overstated. Some time into getting Luna I was stressed out because I needed to do everything RIGHT and every time she made a mistake I felt like I had to address it and do it better and blahhh. I was not enjoying having this dog. I felt like I should always be working on things.

To me... the most important thing is having fun with your dog. If it's not fun for you/the dog, you need to change something about the way you're approaching the training. Maybe you need shorter sessions, less frequent, or maybe you need to just go out and have a good ol' romp together and forget about the rules and just enjoy each other.

Just because you CAN doesn't mean you have to. I have drilled Luna on commands for an hour in class before. I know she can do that if I ask it. However, doing that on a regular basis isn't fun for me and subsequently not for her.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

IMO most dogs burn out to some extent be they working or companion. Or maybe the better way to word it is you hit a point of minimal return where they start zoning out, get overstimulated/over tired, sloppy, etc. IMO less training time but better training is the way to go. Have a game plan. Stick to a pre-chosen amount of time. Stop. Then let it stew a while. 

I even find sometimes that taking a substantial break between sessions can help and the next session things click really quickly. 

And there is no shame in not training every day. I sure don't.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> IMO this can't be overstated. Some time into getting Luna I was stressed out because I needed to do everything RIGHT and every time she made a mistake I felt like I had to address it and do it better and blahhh. I was not enjoying having this dog. I felt like I should always be working on things.
> 
> To me... the most important thing is having fun with your dog. If it's not fun for you/the dog, you need to change something about the way you're approaching the training. Maybe you need shorter sessions, less frequent, or maybe you need to just go out and have a good ol' romp together and forget about the rules and just enjoy each other.
> 
> Just because you CAN doesn't mean you have to. I have drilled Luna on commands for an hour in class before. I know she can do that if I ask it. However, doing that on a regular basis isn't fun for me and subsequently not for her.


Agree so much with this~



Laurelin said:


> IMO most dogs burn out to some extent be they working or companion. Or maybe the better way to word it is you hit a point of minimal return where they start zoning out, get overstimulated/over tired, sloppy, etc. IMO less training time but better training is the way to go. Have a game plan. Stick to a pre-chosen amount of time. Stop. Then let it stew a while.
> 
> I even find sometimes that taking a substantial break between sessions can help and the next session things click really quickly.
> 
> And there is no shame in not training every day. I sure don't.


Agree 100%. Honestly Meeko and I don't train every single day anymore. We used to train at least once a day for 20-30 mins. Now we alternate -- walk or training. Now that he is more or less reliable for LLW, I don't do any training when we go on walks. Sometimes I will bring treats me and work on stuff when we go on walks, but it's usually just a few times a month I would say.

I've just accepted that sometimes things take longer. I've had him 2.5 years now and it honestly took like 2 years to get him to reliably LLW. LLW training every single time we went for a walk just wasn't really fun for me or him lol.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I find that when I really really enjoy training when I manage to put aside my training anxiety, and i get super into it and do it all the time.. And then I get overwhelmed and burned out and don't want to touch it. And Porsche is good with both, she enjoys training and she's okay not training. Although the first thing she checks when we go for a walk, every single time, is if we're going to the car and going somewhere lol. And every time I say no and lead her away from the car, she walks a few feet, then turns around and tries to walk back to the car lol. No burnout on that end...

The rat training is getting better. So maybe soon I'll be able to relax on it just a little bit as she learns more and more self-control around them. I don't like crating but I'll do it for safety of course. (Also can I just say time outs are an amazingly effective tool?). Right now I have to take her to the washroom with me, don't want to chance it by leaving her alone with the rats even for a few minutes.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't get too caught up on having to do XYZ by a certain time and having to work on EVERYTHING at once. We all have training lists that are a mile long but it is too much to work on it all at all times. 

Sometimes dogs need time off. You may not see burnout but I find without fail if we take some breaks from training, we come back better than ever. More enthusiasm, better accuracy, etc. 

In agility for example, Hank needs to learn to wrap tighter, do his contact behavior, proof his weaves, add in more poles, learn the teeter (which involves lots of desensitizing since he's scared), work on auto-downing on the table, keep focus around other dogs, not get sniffy, etc etc etc. You can make your head spin if you think about all that needs to be done. 

We just came off an almost month long break. We had done things 1-2 times a week maybe then. Finally got back at it and pieces are falling into place. But you can't work on all the pieces all the time. If I'm training I'm not going to focus on all the things we need to get done eventually. I'm just focusing on one, maybe two things and will work only on those. I'm deliberate with what I ask and upping criteria over time. But drilling something over and over is no good. I also don't work the same stuff day after day. If we play weaves a day or two then we'll let that sit a while. I want to keep things 'fresh'.

Remember good training takes TIME. Lots of time. Imo train smart and well vs train a lot and long.

Basically, if I don't feel like training, I don't train.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And by time I don't mean sessions that last hours or training 5x a day or anything.

I just mean things can take weeks to months to even years to click.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Specifically with regard to the rat training, it's ok to periodically manage the situation so you can relax. Put the rat cage in another room and just spend some time with your dog. And realize that it's possible that rat proofing may be unsuccessful; not all dogs can be trained out of prey drive. Think about what your plan for that will be IF it comes to it and that may help ease some of the anxiety/urgency about this specific issue.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I 'always' drink a frosty beer at the end of any overly-taxing training sessions. Kinda like the old carrot and stick, ya know?

It's simple R+ in action, for a job well done ... helps to stave off potential burnout, and keeps ambition levels high for future outings. :rockon: lol


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

When I rat, turtle, parrot, and parakeet proofed my 3 dogs, I just put a playpen around the critter's cages. My dogs quickly grew bored and left the animals alone. When the playpen came down, my dogs had already exhausted their interest. I have a terrier and 2 hounds and just managing the introduction was enough.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Oh, and I drink too. I can toss a dumb bell without spilling my wine. 

One rule: I don't train if I have more than one cup of coffee. Drunk is fine, but jittery isn't. Jittery makes me reactive!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> I can toss a dumb bell without spilling my wine.


That's talent I guess . 

But. If you REALLY want to impress me, then do it standing on one leg like a flamingo, blindfolded, while humming the Star Spangled Banner all at the same time too. In the midst of a trial. With the whole house watching intently. *challenge alert* lol


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> That's talent I guess .
> 
> But. If you REALLY want to impress me, then do it standing on one leg like a flamingo, blindfolded, while humming the Star Spangled Banner all at the same time too. In the midst of a trial. With the whole house watching intently. *challenge alert* lol



Video evidence required as proof, I suppose!  You first!


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I want in on this throwing dumbbells with wine competition! We need to post the evidence in the "every day training videos" thread. I'll up the ante and see if you guys can do a whole Retrieve over the High Jump exercise without spilling wine! The gauntlet has been thrown down! LOL


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Can I substitute beer? I don't like wine.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Can I substitute beer? I don't like wine.


Certainly! But it must be poured into a wine glass!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

How about rum? Or sangria... Y'all need to think big.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> Certainly! But it must be poured into a wine glass!


it's the long thin stem that throws me for a loop, holding it with two or three fingers so daintily with the pinky pointing out. If that's the stipulation I'm afraid I'll have to bow out, thanks, if I can't use a beer stein and a manly five-finger grip.

On an ever-so-slightly more serious note (yet still o/t, sorry), the one club I belong to holds an annual Memorial Trial. It's unofficial, open only to club members, and pretty laid back. I assume the Bailey's Irish Cream flows covertly but liberally amongst some of the lady members throughout the course of the competition. Highlight event is usually the dumbbell toss contest near the end of the day, where aim and accuracy are everything. Perhaps you can just imagine some usual hardcore competitors who, for some reason ???, couldn't hit the broad side of a barn to save their own life. Ah well, it's all meant to be in good fun and in good ... spirits, lol


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

My kind of peeps! As easy as it is to take issue with some other dog people, overall, we're pretty cool.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I tried to play with Hazel last night while drinking a beer. Somehow her face ended up in it and she decided it was the best thing ever. Then all she wanted to do was climb up me like a monkey and steal my beer. Now I need to proof her around beer so that this doesn't mess up my drinking+training routine.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

^^ hahaha master dog trainer problems.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I tried to play with Hazel last night while drinking a beer. Somehow her face ended up in it and she decided it was the best thing ever. Then all she wanted to do was climb up me like a monkey and steal my beer. Now I need to proof her around beer so that this doesn't mess up my drinking+training routine.


I'll have to come up with some proofing exercises for your booze spaniel....but you only use them after she understands the beer isn't hers. Proofing done right is meant to build confidence and problem solving skills in your dog! Mistakes are part of proofing and be ready to handle those mistakes and help your puppy make the right decision. It's all a learning experience for both you and your little booze spaniel. Proofing done wrong may cause your dog to stress....and therefore drink beer behind your back. Then it would be a vicious cycle of your booze spaniel making you drink more to deal with her. Then you could make your own thread about alcoholism and training dogs. ROFL


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Seriously though, I just train when I feel like it and I don't feel bad about it if I don't feel like it. I'm willing to manage situations, like with my rabbits (gates and doors), and on walks by using a prong or other no pull device. Feeling like you have to train every single day for X amount of time, or that your dog has to be perfect about some particular behavior is just exhausting.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> I'll have to come up with some proofing exercises for your booze spaniel....but you only use them after she understands the beer isn't hers. Proofing done right is meant to build confidence and problem solving skills in your dog! Mistakes are part of proofing and be ready to handle those mistakes and help your puppy make the right decision. It's all a learning experience for both you and your little booze spaniel. Proofing done wrong may cause your dog to stress....and therefore drink beer behind your back. Then it would be a vicious cycle of your booze spaniel making you drink more to deal with her. Then you could make your own thread about alcoholism and training dogs. ROFL


See, now I was thinking of letting her learn the consequences of her actions by getting drunk and then feeling what it's like to be hungover. But that probably doesn't fall under the banner of pure positive training. Darn it!

ETA: Watson has already driven me to drink, but at least he doesn't try to steal it from me!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

(Just want to say Hazel is adorable!!!)

Wow this thread has escalated lmao. Yeah, I realize I may never get Porsche to be as accepting of the rats as I would like, but I am seeing indications that it will be possible to go at least most of the way there, if not all the way. She's just doing SO well.  She settled yesterday when we had the rats out of the cage for the first time. 

Yeah I'm trying not to feel guilty about not training OB as much, especially since necessary training is happening, it's just not the sit/stay kind.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

One thing that helped me was to identify my training goals and create a reasonable training plan _that included breaks_ for me and the dog. I've had the completely overwhelmed feeling (still do very often), but having a plan, seeing the structure, and more importantly seeing that we're making progress - even the smallest things - help calm my nerves. Building in breaks helped me not feel guilty about having a quiet night with some kongs, some play, but no real training.

Management is a wonderful thing. For example, my two can get rambunctious; if they get out of hand, they get separated. Baby gates are wonderful things.



elrohwen said:


> See, now I was thinking of letting her learn the consequences of her actions by getting drunk and then feeling what it's like to be hungover. But that probably doesn't fall under the banner of pure positive training. Darn it!


That never worked for me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Yeah I'm trying not to feel guilty about not training OB as much, especially since necessary training is happening, it's just not the sit/stay kind.


I think you may naturally lighten up about this with time. When I got Watson I really wanted to get sit and down on cue right away and practice the important basics. With Hazel, I really don't care. I'm much more interested in playing with her, keeping her engaged, following me, following a lure, bringing toys back, etc. I'm confident I can teach a "sit", so doing lots of behaviors right away and getting them on cue is less important to me now. Those things come with time. It's not a race and nobody is judging you for having dogs who can't sit/down/stand/whatever on cue. Most dogs I see out and about barely know how to sit. Heck, one of the trainers I work with shows her dogs and one of her males didn't learn sit until he was about a year old, because she had focused on training him for conformation. Within a week he had a rally novice title, so obviously learning sit so late wasn't a big deal at all.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Seriously though, I just train when I feel like it and I don't feel bad about it if I don't feel like it. I'm willing to manage situations, like with my rabbits (gates and doors), and on walks by using a prong or other no pull device. Feeling like you have to train every single day for X amount of time, or that your dog has to be perfect about some particular behavior is just exhausting.


Exactly...I train almost daily because I LOVE the process and I find it very relaxing. When I'm training my dogs....the world falls away because they make me be present with them. Training dogs is actually very therapeutic for me. Even though I have end goals for my training....I see it as a process, a journey where we become just a little bit better than the day before. Training makes me think....and I love to think about how to teach something. It makes me feel. That using that ability to feel my dogs makes me use my intuition with my training with them....the knowing of what is working and what isn't working. Dog training is more an art than anything else....everyone loves to make it this "scientific process" and I think that's where dog training is suffering. Everyone wants to train by flow charts, recipes, and data driven methods. Dog training isn't a computer program where you input data and a desired result is reliably delivered. I think that's one of my biggest pet peeves about training dogs today. Few people are willing to let go and train the dog in front of them....to feel and really listen to what their dog is trying to tell them. I liken it to painters...you have the paint by number painters and then you have the painters with the ability to feel enough and reach inside and create something fully on their own. You can see which is the paint by number painting a mile away and which is the authentically felt painting a mile away. I've spent a lot of time in the obedience world especially this past year with Lars. I can spot a paint by number trainer a mile away and can see which ones are the authentic, feeling trainers. 

People need to let go with dog training....things will happen when they happen. Dogs have their own time frames and they rarely match up with ours. Putting dates and deadlines on when we think dogs need to have X skill perfect will do nothing but set you up for frustration and disappointment. I'll take Ocean for example....he's 3.5 years old. Rottweilers are slow to mentally mature breed....and there's not a damn thing I can do about that or speed it up. There are plenty of dogs who are not Rottweilers who are his age working on MACH points and QQ's in agility. Ocean just got out of Novice. The only thing I can do is just keep running agility and wait for his brain to catch up with his body. If I started to put a ton of pressure for him and me to get to Masters and those QQ's, trained harder and harder...longer and longer, agility would be miserable for both of us. I probably would bail out of it completely frustrated. I'm working within Ocean's time frame and not mine. I accept there isn't a damn thing I can do about it....so I'm just going to enjoy the process of running agility with him. He and I will be happier in the long run. 

Once it's understood that dog training is a process and an art where there is always something to be tweaked or worked on...enjoy the tweaking to become a little bit better than you were yesterday. And sometimes, being better than you were yesterday may not happen for a week. That's part of the process too. Training dogs can do one of two things....it can build and strengthen a bond between the dog and trainer when it's done well and authentically. It can also destroy relationships between the dog and the trainer when the end goal is more important and the dog becomes more of an object or a problem that needs to be fixed. The take home message is if training is so intense for the trainer they are getting burned out after 4 weeks of class...take a break for a while and gain some perspective on the process and why it got to that point.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I need a like button! 

But I agree. Enjoy the process. Have fun. Don't get hung up on timelines. Don't compare to other dogs. Learn to read your dog and just... let it all go. You will make amazing progress.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I love everything MrsBoats just said and will add one more thought.

In October, I became a coach to a first-time obedience/rally person. She came to me with no obedience or rally work--no heeling, nothing. I have my 2 whippets that I have been working for three years and one year. I told this student that if she was coachable, she and her dog would surpass my whippets in 6 months. This happened. In 6 months. I don't feel bad about where I am with my dogs and she doesn't feel the need to find a different coach. Dogs, handlers, and teams all have their own levels of skill.

Off Topic: The first time my student's dog saw scent articles, we put out 6. That dog never made an error the first day and in 3 months, has yet to miss one. We went to 10 articles the second day and never looked back. Some dogs are just ON FIRE. It's okay. One dog's brilliance does not diminish the accomplishments of the dogs that have a longer process.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

If anything, for me it feels more satisfying to finally be getting a handle on something that's taken a lot of work vs something that just came naturally.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> If anything, for me it feels more satisfying to finally be getting a handle on something that's taken a lot of work vs something that just came naturally.


I agree. Thank goodness! Or my heart and self-esteem would be breaking right now!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've seen people quit agility when their dog isn't the star pupil and it makes me kind of sad. I've been on both sides of that fence. It's not fair to compare how fast a dog learns to some other dog. And even with the dogs that excel there will be 'things' that pop up. Hank is blazing through agility crazy well... except he's the worst in his class with the teeter. Summer sucked at weaves. Remember they're dogs, not performing robots.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I've seen people quit agility when their dog isn't the star pupil and it makes me kind of sad. I've been on both sides of that fence. It's not fair to compare how fast a dog learns to some other dog. And even with the dogs that excel there will be 'things' that pop up. Hank is blazing through agility crazy well... except he's the worst in his class with the teeter. Summer sucked at weaves. Remember they're dogs, not performing robots.


Yea. There is a puppy in our nosework class that is a crazy puppy, can't sit still, barking at the other dogs, etc. I wouldn't expect much more from a not otherwise occupied puppy. I think at this point he`s 6-7months maybe.

A month or so ago we were sitting and waiting for class to start, and the handler came and sat by us. Luna was chilling out on her mat, the puppy was flailing and barking per usual. The owner half jokingly half exasperated was saying to the puppy "Why can't you be like -her-? Look how calm she is!"

I just kind of laughed at the time, but I wanted to be like, "Dude, it helps that she's almost 4 and not a puppy for one thing. Also, she is pretty med-low energy in general. ALSO, we have done a lot of settling on mat work in various classes in different environments over MONTHS. She didn't just do this from nothing."


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Yea. There is a puppy in our nosework class that is a crazy puppy, can't sit still, barking at the other dogs, etc. I wouldn't expect much more from a not otherwise occupied puppy. I think at this point he`s 6-7months maybe.
> 
> A month or so ago we were sitting and waiting for class to start, and the handler came and sat by us. Luna was chilling out on her mat, the puppy was flailing and barking per usual. The owner half jokingly half exasperated was saying to the puppy "Why can't you be like -her-? Look how calm she is!"
> 
> I just kind of laughed at the time, but I wanted to be like, "Dude, it helps that she's almost 4 and not a puppy for one thing. Also, she is pretty med-low energy in general. ALSO, we have done a lot of settling on mat work in various classes in different environments over MONTHS. She didn't just do this from nothing."


I find it hilarious when people make comments like that when they see Watson. What they don't realize is that he was the most wild dog in class for at least a year. It took so so much work and a lot of maturity to make him like he is now, and he's still not always easy, but usually I can hide that out in public. So yeah, comparing your dog to another is just silly. Your dog won't always be crazy, and that well behaved dog you see might not have always been well behaved.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also remember a lot of the people excelling... Well... This ain't their first rodeo kwim?

It took me a bit to realize honestly. I'd go to trials and see people breeze through novice with blazing fast BCs. When I got to researching most of them have competed 10 years or more. And that's their 3rd, 4th, 5th agility dog. It's not fair to compare my elderly toy dog with a novice handler to them. 

I mean there are a few people that go out and kill it with their first dog but it takes just the right combo of outstanding dog and good trainer. IMO. And fantastic mentorship for most. Most people fumble for a while... The people excelling have paid their dues and have many more years of experience than I do.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Just like people, some dogs strengths may be another dog's weakness....and that needs to be accepted and embraced too. 



> “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”


Lars' explosive and bottomless drive is a gift from God in obedience....in agility, it's his worst enemy. Ocean's a thinker and that is his gift in agility....and it's his worst enemy in obedience environments. I allow/accept my dogs to be who they are and work with their strengths and their weaknesses. I am 100% okay that Ocean probably won't ever be my obedience rock star like Lars because he absorbs the stress from the dogs around him in those settings. But, he is becoming a powerhouse that people will stop to watch in agility. It took me a while to accept that Lars wasn't going to be both my obedience and agility dog....but I fully accept it now. And I'm more peaceful with that. Embrace what your dog can do, accept what they can't, and go from there.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yep... Love that quote btw.

In copy class Luna was better at object related copying, another dog in class was better at physical copying (spin, high five, wave, etc). 

One isn't better or worse, just different. You get worse when you try to fit a dog into a box it isn't meant to fit into.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> You get worse when you try to fit a dog into a box it isn't meant to fit into.


Yes....and I have seen plenty of this too in the performance world. People's egos get far too in the way and they try to stuff their dog into the box/sport they need to do. The results are disastrous and sad. That dog who becomes only an object or the problem that needs to be fixed is the one who suffers or discarded for the next dog who will make that person and their ego look good to others.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The sports thing gets to me. Once I started attending run throughs and practices and private lessons and trials, I mostly saw people who just really love their dogs and want to play with them - but in classes, man. I have seen some everything from people screaming at their dogs and storming out because their dog lost some little competition that means nothing to really harsh corrections and just... bubbling over frustration and unhappiness.

I've cried in class. I've been frustrated. I've been despairing. I've chosen to take some deep breaths, a stiff drink and keep going. But... I don't know, for me, the point you say 'no more, this is something to management' is when the frustration outweighs the fun and when your relationship with your dog suffers instead of grows. Or, well, that's my line in the sand. I do a lot of training with Kylie and Molly. I do a little bit with Bug. I do basically none with Thud and Jack (I mean they're trained, but I'm not 'in training' with them above and beyond basics). I'd say my decision in all three cases has made for a better relationship with the dogs, and both dogs and I being happier with each other.

And I have no regrets about any of those decisions.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I can so relate to what everyone is saying here right now. We just started our first agility classes, and Meeko is one of the "slower" dogs in the class. He is fearful/unsure of new things so he takes longer to figure things out. On top of that he is fearful of larger dogs and twice larger dogs have approached him in class slowing his progress down even more. Everyone else in the class also has higher drive dogs (BCs, a Weim and a Chocolate Lab). I was kind of disappointed my first class. I honestly thought he would be a star student, but I realize now even if it seems like he isn't "getting" things as quickly as those dogs, he's overcoming SO much more compared to them. I'm really proud of how well he's managed things so far. Honestly I have no doubt he'll do great the more we practice.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I am very glad all dogs are different. Dog training would be very boring if there was an exact formula to follow every time. Each dog will force you to be a better trainer because they are going to bring something new to the table on their end.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I can not tell you how many times I have been encouraged to keep going the *right way* by other dog people. Not just in the forum, or even honestly mostly the forum, but in real life. People who took the time in early classes to tell me not to compare myself to that other dog, because he was that person's third agility dog and he'd been doing the work forever. People who went out of their way to voice how impressed they were with how far they'd come on some little issue or another. To stand around outside the ring and introduce me to another friend and say 'wait until you see her run!' or compliment my dog. People who cheered WILDLY at clearly non-qualifying runs because it was our first one, or we got some hard bit of the course I was worried about. Getting email from my instructor saying she saw our runs and they were really nice.

I think... that kind of thing takes a lot of the pressure off, sometimes, be it online or off. Just reinforcement that they've done well and are doing well and their dog is awesome and things are going to be okay. That wherever they are, is not where they started, they're making progress and they have things to be proud of, both in themselves and in their dogs. 

I've started trying to do more of that. I think it's probably something I'll make a concerted effort to continue doing. It really DOES make a difference.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea... we had an interesting situation like this in nosework class last night. 

Luna is not a dainty dog. She is not (generally) a careful dog. She runs into things and just keeps on going. She stumbles over stuff and just keeps walking like there was never anything there in the first place. She has knocked chairs over and fallen trying to jump onto them and is trying to jump back up again while I'm still trying to get the chair upright again. She is also a confident dog with obstacles. She climbs up onto things (chairs, tables, outdoor half-walls, etc) without cuing like it's the most normal thing ever for her to do. I like that. I like having a confident dog that is willing to tackle any obstacle like she does it everyday. 

However, nosework people have been telling me I shouldn't let her do that, and etc. For example; if a hide is on the underside of a chair, it isn't uncommon for her to try and get up on the chair, because it's a chair and getting on chairs is normal to her. If multiple chairs are lined up, she'll walk across them like a bridge. 

I don't know if this is a GSD thing, or a thing with the GSD's in our class, or what (most of the dogs in our class are GSD's), but none of them ever attempt to do anything like that. They seem much more careful about where their feet go, never try to paw something or jump up on something, etc. 

Luna knocks things around just by existing in the same space as things. I have never been witness to such a perfect example of a bull in a china shop, lol. I mean, yea, I could work on some body awareness, but for the most part that's just part of who she is. Not clumsy (she doesn't attempt to be careful and then fail), she just doesn't -care-.

It was causing me a lot of stress trying to think of how I was going to -make- her stop doing that, and make her more careful and etc and so on. But really? It's not like she's not doing her job. She's not goofing off and knocking things around for the hell of it. It's a by-product of there being things in the direction she wanted to walk in.

I am working on switching her from a paw to a nose touch as her indication, but honestly the rest of it is just her. If we ever compete and lose points because she knocked things around, oh well. I would rather have a confident dog that was knocking things around than one that was too afraid of doing it wrong to touch anything. (personal example of a dog I know, not related to anyone here)

I'm sure if she had ever been in training for a bomb dog she would have washed out long ago.

/minirant


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Am I alone in the fact that I'm not big on training. Unless there's an issue I am working on ie. Jazz's reactivity, I do little to no training.

I mean the dogs know all the basics and we work on recall daily, but other than that, I don't do much training unless it's an issue that needs fixing.

They have to do all their tricks to get treats and wait for their bowl to eat and sit for their leashes, etc but I don't designate formal training time. I just couldn't be bothered and prefer to spend my time with them playing and hiking.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

For me I like working together. I treat it as play. "You wanna play a game with me Loon?" as I get the clicker & treats out.

I do classes because I like that feeling of working together as a team and doing things together, not because I want her to get to a certain 'level' or get a certain trick or behaviour or whatever. I just look at it as an activity for us to do together.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Nah, like I said up thread that's me with 3 of my 5. The dogs are happy with that, I'm happy with that, our relationship is better like that. I got into training as a 'thing' because Kylie decided by the time she was 6 weeks old that training was the most rewarding and most fun and best game to play, ever. I reluctantly signed up for agility classes to have something to do with her because I was out of ideas and fell in love.

But my primary concern is still always pretty much 'enjoyable pet' and my primary training focus is still always with an eye toward off leash hiking ability because that's my first love with dogs and a big part of my life. Now that I also enjoy agility I train those who enjoy it for that so *I* can keep playing the game, you know? It's basically the same thing. Something I like, the dogs like, and we can do together.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Oh, I don't designate formal training time on a regular basis. It's not like 5pm to 5:30 is training time or something like that. 

When I feel like it I'll grab the clicker and work on something for a few mins. Sometimes that's once a day, sometimes more than once, sometimes not at all for several days at a time. Just depends.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Oh, I don't designate formal training time on a regular basis. It's not like 5pm to 5:30 is training time or something like that.
> 
> When I feel like it I'll grab the clicker and work on something for a few mins. Sometimes that's once a day, sometimes more than once, sometimes not at all for several days at a time. Just depends.


Me either. 

I mean I do classes at a regular time but mostly it's wherever, whatever, and when the mood strikes. I'm about as 'consistent' with frequency as you, too. I mean I just... don't care that much?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Me either.
> 
> I mean I do classes at a regular time but mostly it's wherever, whatever, and when the mood strikes. I'm about as 'consistent' with frequency as you, too. I mean I just... don't care that much?


Yea we have classes at regular times but that's about it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dog training is just my hobby. Kind of like needle felting or fishing. I realize its not going to be that for everyone. To me it (agility in particular but all dog performance sport) has always been something I knew I wanted to do. And it's addicting.

I train because it has made me understand my dogs a lot better. It's fun. I get to meet an hang with cool dog people and their dogs. I get to accomplish things. To me the best part of the week is getting to do agility. So I will keep on keeping on.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I also do a lot of passive training?

Last night while waiting to start nosework we were standing along a wall to let the other dogs leave and I was chatting while just dropping hot dog pieces down to Luna for keeping her down stay.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And a lot of training isn't a training session even when it's active? I mean I recall the dogs on a hike and give them a ball toss or a treat, we've trained. I ask Molly to wait and the door and then release her to go play, we've trained. I make Molly down or sit or spin before I throw the ball - trained. Same thing if I catch a commercial and ask a dog to 'get out' around the coffee table. Even if there are no reps, even if it's just once, it's training. That's how I do MOST of my training.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

CptJack said:


> And a lot of training isn't a training session even when it's active? I mean I recall the dogs on a hike and give them a ball toss or a treat, we've trained. I ask Molly to wait and the door and then release her to go play, we've trained. I make Molly down or sit or spin before I throw the ball - trained. Same thing if I catch a commercial and ask a dog to 'get out' around the coffee table. Even if there are no reps, even if it's just once, it's training. That's how I do MOST of my training.


Yah I guess I just do a lot of passive training. My dogs are off leash every day for at least hours and we are always doing recall and waiting exercises. I just don't do clicker training in the house much. 

I love working with the girls and they love it so much. I would love to do some sort of dog sport because my dogs are so athletic and so into balls, sticks, and working. It's just hard because I don't drive and we don't have a car. 

It's one of the main reasons that I want a car.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Dog training is just my hobby. Kind of like needle felting or fishing. I realize its not going to be that for everyone. To me it (agility in particular but all dog performance sport) has always been something I knew I wanted to do. And it's addicting.
> 
> I train because it has made me understand my dogs a lot better. It's fun. I get to meet an hang with cool dog people and their dogs. I get to accomplish things. To me the best part of the week is getting to do agility. So I will keep on keeping on.


I can totally see myself getting hooked. One of these days I need to get my driver's license.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Lol to me all that passive training stuff is still training, and the kind of training that wears me out. All training wears me out. Porsche doesn't play, so 90% of our interaction is training in some way, shape, or form. Be it sit before getting food, wait when we come back from a walk, keep 4 feet on the ground around the rats, heel or LLW on a walk, etc. It all counts in my head, I notice and work with myself to give every single sit. 

It adds up and it's tiring.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Sometimes it's best to just relax. Walk the dog without worrying about training. Cuddle up on the couch together. Rub her belly. Whatever she likes! Sometimes it's best just to 'be', you know what I mean? There's no harm in deciding certain things aren't important to you either. You don't have to do everything 'by the book'. 

90% of your interactions shouldn't be training. In my honest opinion.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Alla said:


> Lol to me all that passive training stuff is still training, and the kind of training that wears me out. All training wears me out. Porsche doesn't play, so 90% of our interaction is training in some way, shape, or form. Be it sit before getting food, wait when we come back from a walk, keep 4 feet on the ground around the rats, heel or LLW on a walk, etc. It all counts in my head, I notice and work with myself to give every single sit.
> 
> It adds up and it's tiring.


I'm going to ask you a question point blank....do you enjoy Porche? Is the arduous task of working with her getting in the way of you enjoying her and building a relationship with her? I somewhat foresee owning a dog is not going to be easy for you if basic everyday training is that draining for you.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Sometimes it's best to just relax. Walk the dog without worrying about training. Cuddle up on the couch together. Rub her belly. Whatever she likes! Sometimes it's best just to 'be', you know what I mean? There's no harm in deciding certain things aren't important to you either. You don't have to do everything 'by the book'.
> 
> 90% of your interactions shouldn't be training. In my honest opinion.


This!! I threw the book out a long time ago. If you aren't enjoying yourself, then take a break and don't sweat all the small stuff. In the grand scheme of things, LLW isn't a huge deal. Take some time out for you. Have some wine, read a book, try to relax and start over when you aren't so stressed.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> Sometimes it's best to just relax. Walk the dog without worrying about training. Cuddle up on the couch together. Rub her belly. Whatever she likes! Sometimes it's best just to 'be', you know what I mean? There's no harm in deciding certain things aren't important to you either. You don't have to do everything 'by the book'.
> 
> 90% of your interactions shouldn't be training. In my honest opinion.


I mean, I agree, but what else do I do?
She doesn't like cuddling. I'll invite her on the couch, but she does it like a command. I usually can't convince her to stay on it (unless I give another command... see how this turns into training really quick?), she'll just leave and go lie on the floor. 

The 10% figure is rubbing her belly, petting her and giving her scratches - but it's all a "I am doing this and nothing else right now" kind of interaction, it's not something I can do together with watching TV for example (she doesn't want to settle close to enough for me to pet her long term).

We go for lots of walks. But walks are either LLW training, or heel training, depending on the occasion and how much I want to do it. And when I say "training" in this situation, I don't mean treats and a clicker, I mean passive training - i.e. you pull, we do a 180. Still training. I mean, she's good about 90% of the time, but its for the other 10% that I need to be vigilant for... hence that makes it training. 

I can't do off-leash with her right now because she's in heat and dog parks are out of the question. And if I do pseudo off leash, dragging a line in a park for example, that's automatically recall training.

I mean, what else do you do with a dog? Walking (i.e. training), training (i.e. training), feeding (i.e. training), petting (except she's not a cuddly dog), playing (i.e. training)... what else?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> I'm going to ask you a question point blank....do you enjoy Porche? Is the arduous task of working with her getting in the way of you enjoying her and building a relationship with her? I somewhat foresee owning a dog is not going to be easy for you if basic everyday training is that draining for you.


Yes I do enjoy her.  I also enjoy training, but it does get too much sometimes (especially with these rats, gosh). 

I think i'll learn to pay less and less attention to the everyday commands with time, but for now, it all counts. I don't give a single sit unless I have to lol.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> I mean, what else do you do with a dog? Walking (i.e. training), training (i.e. training), feeding (i.e. training), petting (except she's not a cuddly dog), playing (i.e. training)... what else?


Why can't walking, feeding, and playing be just walking, feeding, and playing? I incorporate training into those activities _when I want to_, but sometimes a walk is just a walk.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Remember she is still very new to you. You got her beginning of April/end of March? She's still adjusting. It took me 6-8 months for Hank to adjust fully. And he's a confident straightforward kind of guy.

You're going to have to go at her pace. I had a sheltie like that- didn't play at all with toys or personal play. Was what I'd call 'stiff and robotic'. Didn't like pets or being held. It took a long long time to figure him out. But we did and eventually he got more into pets. I figured out he liked to run. We could play some if we both were running and chasing each other. I was not a good trainer back then, I'd love to have him now and just see what we could do. 

I know you do a lot of obedience type training. Do you ever do really loose shaping type sessions? Shaping isn't everyone's favorite but I find it's good to use to teach dogs to offer behaviors. I've even got it to where my Summer will play with a toy. Took a long time but it's doable. This is just coming from your posts but it sounds like you do a lot of 'sit' and 'stay' and stuff but not so much fun stuff? You need to figure out how to let her be loose and have fun. 

With walks think about them as less 'training' more 'exploring'. Sometimes I train on walks but most the time we just walk. It's especially neat going new places and seeing what we find. 

Some things are worth training. Some worth managing. Others just may not matter to you after all. (My dogs don't sit for their food for example. Because I don't care if they do or don't) There's having rules because they make sense and make life easier and then having rules just to have rules.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Why can't walking, feeding, and playing be just walking, feeding, and playing? I incorporate training into those activities when I want to, but sometimes a walk is just a walk.


Because when the dog pulls, and you don't react, the dog continues pulling, and on the next walk, pulls some more. If I don't address it over a few walks, walking gets uncomfortable because of the constant slight pull. I don't really consider walking on a flexi to be arduous training, but it still is training, i.e. i still have to address some pulling issues. I cannot allow her to escalate pulling because i'm a weakling and she's strong, and i'm her main walker. 

All I require for feeding is a sit, and sometimes I allow myself to skip that.  I try to stick to NILIF, but I've been sloppy with that recently.

She doesn't play, so for me to play with her, it needs to be a clicker+treats active training affair. She'll only chase after a toy if she gets a treat out of it.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> I know you do a lot of obedience type training. Do you ever do really loose shaping type sessions? Shaping isn't everyone's favorite but I find it's good to use to teach dogs to offer behaviors. I've even got it to where my Summer will play with a toy. Took a long time but it's doable. This is just coming from your posts but it sounds like you do a lot of 'sit' and 'stay' and stuff but not so much fun stuff? You need to figure out how to let her be loose and have fun.


Lol I do some stuff like that with her occasionally. It just adds to the training requirements honestly, so I dont do a lot because for example I consider stay to be more important than shake paw. So since I have a limited resource of mental stamina, I'll train the more important stuff first. 

I really, really want her to be solid on sit/down/stand stays. I want to be able to tell her to stay from a run and have her stay right now, damn it. Or come. Right now she only does "come" well out of a stay, I need it to be out of distractions/doing her own thing where she isn't focused on me directly. So that type of safety training takes priority.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Have some wine, read a book, try to relax and start over when you aren't so stressed.


I think I'm feeling it more right now because I'm always "on" at home given the rat situation. I always have to be vigilant that her feet are on the floor and if they aren't, I need to stop whatever I'm doing and run to give her a time out. It might happen once an hour, but I need to watch for it to happen, otherwise we'll never get to ignoring them in their cage, and if we don't get there, we won't get to ignoring them on hands... Once this vigilance stage passes, it'll be easier for me.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You need to do both the 'fun' and the 'important'. Because the fun IS important to you and your dog. If Porsche learns that working with you is fun vs it being a chore you'll get a lot farther. Also YOU need variety. YOU need to bond with the dog as a partner vs be a drill sergeant. You are burning out because you are only focused on the chore side of dog ownership and there's much more.

Also you have had her 2-3 months? That kind of reliability takes a long time if ever to come. You can't just... cease all fun stuff in the mean time.

With the rat stuff can't you remove the dog a while from the situation? Use a gate or door or something to give everyone a break?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> You need to do both the 'fun' and the 'important'. Because the fun IS important to you and your dog. If Porsche learns that working with you is fun vs it being a chore you'll get a lot farther. Also YOU need variety. YOU need to bond with the dog as a partner vs be a drill sergeant. You are burning out because you are only focused on the chore side of dog ownership and there's much more.
> 
> Also you have had her 2-3 months? That kind of reliability takes a long time if ever to come. You can't just... cease all fun stuff in the mean time.
> 
> With the rat stuff can't you remove the dog a while from the situation? Use a gate or door or something to give everyone a break?


I can remove her, but she's already crated the whole time I'm at work, so I feel bad crating her even more when I'm at home... It don't think it's fair. 

Yeah, maybe I need to try teaching her some new tricks and stuff instead of just doing the OB things. Maybe once this rat thing settles down I'll be more up for it, cause right now, 101 things with a box sounds like far more of a chore than just making sure her feet are on the ground lol.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Why don't you just put the rats in another room? Or go with her to another room to hang out. 

And I agree that you need to work on fun for both you and the dog. Why does she need to sit down and stand stay out of sight for long periods of time? I can't think of any time outside of obedience class where that was a requirement in my dog's life. It especially doesn't matter if they can do all of the positions. If your dog can just stop when you tell them, whatever position, and come when you call them, the rest of it is obedience training. Nothing to do with safety. Heck, they don't even need that stuff. That's what leashes and long lines are for. My dog didn't have a reliable recall from 8 months until now (and it's still not tested in all situations). So what? These things take time and you can't spend every waking moment working on it. You have to have fun too. Long lines are a form of management. Nothing wrong with that. 

Just work on having fun with your dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Interacting with the dog shouldn't be a 'chore'. If it feels that way then I really think you need to take a break a while. Just relax a couple weeks and don't focus on too much at all training wise. She will read you if you're not into a training session. It's better to be able to approach it with a good attitude. Some days training feels like a chore for me too. So I skip that day or even week. No big deal.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Why don't you just put the rats in another room? Or go with her to another room to hang out.
> 
> And I agree that you need to work on fun for both you and the dog. Why does she need to sit down and stand stay out of sight for long periods of time? I can't think of any time outside of obedience class where that was a requirement in my dog's life. It especially doesn't matter if they can do all of the positions. If your dog can just stop when you tell them, whatever position, and come when you call them, the rest of it is obedience training. Nothing to do with safety. Heck, they don't even need that stuff. That's what leashes and long lines are for. My dog didn't have a reliable recall from 8 months until now (and it's still not tested in all situations). So what? These things take time and you can't spend every waking moment working on it. You have to have fun too. Long lines are a form of management. Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Just work on having fun with your dog.


^^^ This. 

In the 15 years I've had dogs, I have never once used an out of sight sit/down stay outside of an AKC Open Obedience ring.



> Interactin with the dog shouldn't be a 'chore'. If it feels that way then I really think you need to take a break a while. Just relax a couple weeks and don't focus on too much at all training wise. She will read you if you're not into a training session. It's better to be able to approach it with a good attitude. Some days training feels like a chore for me too. So I skip that day or even week. No big deal.


^^^ this too. One of my favorite phrases in dog training is "you can never lie to a dog." They know exactly what and how you feel. If you can't get into a good place with either your dog or training....leave it alone and do not train. Here's another favorite phrase of mine too...."dogs are our amplifiers." Whatever is going on in you will come through your dog's behavior. Once this winter, I had a big fight with my husband right before I left for a show. I tried to stuff down the tempest of emotions I had churning inside as I stepped into that utility ring. I fooled everyone there...but Lars. He was a electrical storm and tornado of energy...and he broadcast to everyone what I was really feeling inside. He couldn't stay on the ground in between exercises...roaring and leaping in the air. I even got a fat lip from him that day. It was bad and I vowed that I would scratch a show if I ever was in that position emotionally again. You can lie to everyone else around you about how you feel about something, but you can never lie to a dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Your focus needs to be on teaching her things that are IMPORTANT TO YOU and that make her MORE ENJOYABLE FOR YOU. If you want her to be more physically affectionate, 'work' on *that*, to the degree that you are able. If you don't want to work on LLW because it's boring, get a no pull harness and be done with it. If working on the rat thing is a chore, put them in another room and be done with it.

Just... LIVE with your dog sometimes. If she doesn't want to cuddle or play, feed her, take her out to potty, talk to her, or you know go about your daily life.

Every interaction with any living being centering around some 'task' or 'goal' or objective just does not work. That IS a recipe for burnout and it's not a recipe for a good relationship.

There are days, sometimes weeks, when I do nothing concrete with my dogs. Right now 4 of my 5 are sleeping around the room I'm in - Jack and Kylie at my feet, Molly and Bug in bed. Thud's asleep outside, I think. Later I'll watch TV and knit and they'll move around the house and be with me. No specific game, no directed training, no casual training. I may or may not give them a bit of whatever snack I end up having. Then I'll go to bed and some of them will come to bed with me and... Tomorrow we'll probably do just about the same thing.

And you know, maybe it's not rocket science or deep but that's about how I interact with the rest of my family too. We talk, we chill, we do our own thing sometimes. Sometimes in different parts of the house, sometimes in the same room but not everything is an Event, or an Outing or something designed to teach or accomplish or bond or a big deal. Sometimes we just live together and love each other, you know?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm exhausted just reading about this. Find some ways to be easy on yourself, like get a management tool for walks (no pull harness or whatever) and let at least SOME walks just be walks. Put the rats in another room or go in another room with Porsche and just relax together for an hour.

If I thought of every moment of the day as training I don't think I'd even like my dogs. If my expectation was that their behavior was always perfect I'm sure I'd be in the nuthouse by now. You need a break from time to time, if not? Here there be madness.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Honestly, I was just like you. I didn't want to do tricks because tricks were silly and extra and not important and not practical. 

But you know what? I ended up doing some as a byproduct of another class, and it made a HUGE difference in the bond we have together. So much so that I actually signed up for a tricks class after that. The actual trick might have no practical application, but the spending time and having fun and bonding IS important. It helps you understand each other.

Also, may I suggest finding an out of the way place you can hike and put her on a long line? No distractions, no other dogs or people. Just go exploring with your dog and forget the rules. Trust me. You need to stop trying to make her perfect all at once. It isn't going to happen, and you will damage your relationship trying to -make- it happen.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also yea, out of sight/distance down/sit/stand stays for extended periods are high level stuff that takes a long time to accomplish. Don't make that your goal above all else.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> If I thought of every moment of the day as training I don't think I'd even like my dogs.


I absolutely would not have dogs at all if I felt the need to be actively ENGAGING with them every minute of every day, never mind actively training them! I do not have that kind of mental stamina.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Why don't you just put the rats in another room? Or go with her to another room to hang out.


Can't do #1 because they are in a 5ft tall cage that's bolted to the wall (as a form of dog proofing). Can't really do #2 because the whole first floor is one open space, and on the second floor we have our main bedroom, a pool room with nothing but a pool table, and a storage room. None are really hangoutable places - I'm not at the point of "screw everything" yet that I'd rather spend time in those rooms lol. 



> And I agree that you need to work on fun for both you and the dog.





> Just work on having fun with your dog.


Work on fun... I like your phrasing. 



> Why does she need to sit down and stand stay out of sight for long periods of time? I can't think of any time outside of obedience class where that was a requirement in my dog's life.


Because when the door to the house opens accidentally, and my boyfriend is parked across the street, and she happens to run outside to go greet him, I need either a stay or a come to be rock solid, even if she can't currently see me behind her in the doorway inside the house. I've run into far too many dangerous situations already that could've ended badly had a car been passing just then, all because my stays, waits, and comes are still pretty bad. 

I want to be able to walk into my house with hands full of groceries, tell my dog sit-stay, and carry them to the kitchen. I don't want to have my dog trying to sneak out of the open/opening door as we're entering or exiting the house. I don't want to have to leave all my groceries in the car, go inside, find a leash, find a collar, put both on her, tether her somewhere, then go back out to the car and get my groceries out. 



> Nothing to do with safety. Heck, they don't even need that stuff. That's what leashes and long lines are for.


Just personal preference. I don't want to have to deal with all that stuff when I can simply say a word and have that action happen. Sure it'll take work to get there, but that's work you put in up front, vs. management of their whole life. And I'm willing to put that work in.



> Right now 4 of my 5 are sleeping around the room I'm in - Jack and Kylie at my feet, Molly and Bug in bed. Thud's asleep outside, I think. Later I'll watch TV and knit and they'll move around the house and be with me. No specific game, no directed training, no casual training. I may or may not give them a bit of whatever snack I end up having. Then I'll go to bed and some of them will come to bed with me and... Tomorrow we'll probably do just about the same thing.


I don't count that as interaction though. Sleeping in the room with me isn't interaction, it's just settling. I do all that stuff as well, of course.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If it's not possible to either move the rats or move into a different room, I'd just put her on a leash and tether her to me. The constant need for hypervigilance is just really not good for your mental health.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It's absolutely not interaction and that's my point. Not only does it not all have to be training, it doesn't all have to be interaction. Training IS my hobby, and I actively compete in a dog sport based on training, but that doesn't mean I want every moment with my dogs to be active interaction with me - though frankly I think you'd find the dog's consider it worthwhile or else they'd be somewhere else (thud who is somewhere else does not) and something they enjoy and benefit from. 

It's also different for them, mentally, than being crated or sent to a mat/place away from me to 'settle'. They're not on standby waiting for me or actively doing a thing for me, they're just BEING with me, you know? There IS benefit in that, and that IS bonding for both them and me and that can't be replaced with all the training, tug, or structured games in the world. I mean I do training and structured games and activity and there are certainly lots of benefits there, but there is also a lot - for dog, me, and the relationship between us- for the dog just hanging out in my vicinity. It's learning of its own sort, and not just to calm down to settle but a chance to learn about me, the flow of the household, what's normal and what's not, how to trust the environment and people in it and how to do more than actively stay still, but how to relax and decompress fully.

For am all settling means is the dog isn't moving around and in my way, but that's still asking something of the dog, and at the direction of the owner. It's not just letting dog and owner exist in the same place together.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

With the groceries I've always just taught a dog not to cross the threshold of the doorway unless invited. Never used a stay there...

You will have to manage things sometimes. Off leash reliability depends on the dog, the area, etc a lot. Some dogs are easier to train for it while others may never be reliable. Some may be ok in remote areas. You have to be aware and prepared that it takes a long time and doesn't always work well for all dogs in all situations.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I will say, too, that no matter how much you plan and how much you train... you can't control everything. No dog has 100% perfection of any behavior. I think you're setting yourself up for a lot of mental stress by having such high expectations for a dog who is so new to you. Sometimes you DO just have to come inside and tether the dog, then go get the groceries... even if you don't want to.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> If it's not possible to either move the rats or move into a different room, I'd just put her on a leash and tether her to me. The constant need for hypervigilance is just really not good for your mental health.


That is what I did with Hank and the paps the first few weeks. It's also ok to crate sometimes if you need a break. It is not going to be forever.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yep. When I was still monitoring Luna for cat interaction 24/7 sometimes I just put her in her crate so I could relax and/or take a nap.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm also here entirely just to agree that there are things you're going to have to manage, anyway. You can try and try and try and frustrate yourself and stress both you and your dog, but sometimes you're going to have to use something besides a verbal command to keep the dog from doing something, or away from something, or safe. There is no dog, in the existence of ever, who was 200% reliable in all circumstances and never needed to be 'managed' because it was so well trained. 

That dog does not exist. That dog will never exist. Some dogs might achieve some part of it or for some portion of its life, but that's as good as it's going to get - and it is the product of a LIFETIME of both training *and* management *and* play and simple bonding and the dog learning through environment and routine and consistency BY both training and routine and management. Making yourself crazy is not going to get you there faster, it's just going to make you crazy.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> I'd just put her on a leash and tether her to me. The constant need for hypervigilance is just really not good for your mental health.


That's a good idea.  If/when I get to the point of way too much, I'll do that. Right now I'm still okay with being vigilant about the rats. Cause the more time I keep her away from them, the longer desensitization will take and it'll just draw out the process. Today she was crated about 2 meters from the cage and did very well. Tomorrow I think I'll put her crate right up to the cage (the rats aren't moving in it yet), and move things along. 



> It's absolutely not interaction and that's my point. Not only does it not all have to be training, it doesn't all have to be interaction.


Not sure how this part came up? Cause I mentioned that 90% of my interaction is training... not 90% of my time in the same room with the dog lol. I do a ton of the just be in the same room together type of stuff. She's definitely a people dog, she wants to be where I am. 



> For am all settling means is the dog isn't moving around and in my way, but that's still asking something of the dog, and at the direction of the owner. It's not just letting dog and owner exist in the same place together.


I don't have a settle command. Settling is just what she does naturally, so for me all settling is indeed just letting the dog and owner exist in the same place together.

I probably am having my expectations way too high, but I also see that she is naturally obedient and takes to training very well, so it feels like something that would be achievable.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Achievable... maybe. In time. Not a week or a month or a couple of months. 

And even then, only with the growth of your relationship. If you're trying to force her to be able to do behaviours she isn't ready for yet you are setting yourself up for failure and an unhappy dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Tethering is also keeping her away from the rats while also allowing her to see them and you to not quite be so vigilant. 

It took about 2 months for hank and papillons to be fully ok. And still he is sometimes too much for them. Depending on how Porsche is it may be a longer process to get her to be ok around the rats. And it may be something that forever needs management to some degree.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Another thought about trick training. I like how Ireth explained it earlier as helping the bond. I find that is true. I think with trick training people are better initially about lightening up and having fun with training vs it being something 'important that you must do perfectly' like obedience. And in turn the dog has fun and the trainer learns to motivate their dog. Etc etc 

And don't forget what we said about variety. Dogs get bored if you drill things. If you work stays one day a week that's great bit doesn't have to be every day.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yeah. Right now I have one of the rats (Kili, quieter one) sitting on my shoulder, and Porsche loose but dragging a leash. She's noticed him up here, did one time out, but mostly she keeps forgetting he's there and is more interested in the cage. But no timeouts for the cage today, so yay, even with Fili moving around a bit! 

Now she's eating a kong on her bed quietly and I'm chilling with a rat.  But even this kind of passive training is still training for me.



> If you're trying to force her to be able to do behaviours she isn't ready for yet you are setting yourself up for failure and an unhappy dog.


I don't think I'm trying to force her into anything really? That's kind of the long term vision, obviously that kind of stuff doesn't happen overnight.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

my head is a little foggy from reading this whole thing, so I'm going to do my best to reply. granted I am mobile and using my text to speech app, so if there are any typos I'm sorry.

this is just my own personal experience with my own personal dog, and each dog is different so I'm not saying that your experience will be like mine but here we go anyway. it took Lincoln almost until he was 8 months old to be reliable enough off lead to where I felt comfortable walking him without a long line, even now I always carry a leash with me just in case I need one. You've only had your dog for a few months, in my opinion it will be many more months before she will be reliable off leash, you guys have to create a bond before she's going to do anything for you no matter how simple. Right now I would work on barrier proofing like door bolting and things like that, that's right I would start.

as far as the rats are concerned your dog is a German Shepherd: German Shepherds are high prey drive dogs, you might never be able to trust her with your small animals unattended and you are going to have to prepare yourself for that fact. If you force the issue you could come home to dead rats and in my opinion that's just not worth it. on the other hand, you can't / manage the situation either, have her on a leash all the time lover drag it around, and if she start focusing on the rap too much or something like that you can use the leaves to remove her and give her a leave it command.

as far as training in general I agree with everybody else sometimes a walk is just a walk, if a training opportunity presents itself then great! If it doesn't then that's fine too, if you don't feel like training that day then don't! Make it fun, not a chore.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Alla, you honestly need to chill.

Sometimes, IT IS OK TO LET THE DOG PULL ON A WALK. That piece of advice came courtesy of one of the trainers at the place you go to. Bond with your dog. Let them sniff, pull, whatever the first half of the walk. When they are tired/taken the edge off the energy? Then work with them. It's a hell of a lot easier. From what you've said, Porsche is a relatively "calm" dog in the first place.

You have friends, don't you? Aren't there any times you go for coffee? Do homework in the same room (I know you aren't in college) or do something in the same room without really interacting? Watch tv together? Same principal, apply it to your pet. I feel like you are making your life more difficult than it needs to be. If your anxiety around training is that great, get help for it. Not said in jest, or to be mocking. 100% serious.

EDIT:

And...yeah. Lock your door so it doesn't open. Stick her in the crate for the 2 minutes taking in grocery takes. Not the end of the world. Simple solutions to your problems.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I've never had a problem with bringing in groceries and Queenie wouldn't know a stay if it bit her in the butt. She knows not to rush the door so she doesn't rush the door, and I don't leave the door hanging open long enough to be a temptation.

This is probably an unpopular opinion around here, I'm honestly not a fan of forcing incompatible animals into a household together unnecessarily. It's so stressful, restricting, and dangerous for the animals. IMO when I decided to get big dogs with prey drives it carried with it the choice not to get small fuzzies or cats. I guess if people can make it work, great, but it really seems like hammering a square peg into a round hole to me. 



Alla said:


> Because when the dog pulls, and you don't react, the dog continues pulling, and on the next walk, pulls some more.


I don't think this is true, or at least not true of all dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Incompatiable animals in a household together is fine by me - if you can keep them all safe, and that means, IMO, separation sometimes Like lifelong, don't even interact or see each other, separation similar to crate and rotate with dogs who want to kill each 

Teaching a dog with preydrive to leave small fuzzy animals is okay. But trying to train preydrive out to the degree that the small fuzzy animal and the dog with preydrive are out and exposed to each other all the time is like trying to teach a dog with DA not to to be DA. It's not going to work, and it's going to stress everyone out, and honestly just sort of strikes me as arrogant? Like possessing the belief that you can TRAIN a dog to be ANYTHING you want them to be.

And really dangerous for the small fuzzy thing.

They aren't robots. You don't program them. Some things are hardwired. They have personalities and drives and strengths and abilities and weaknesses and all sorts of other things :/


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

You guys are completely right, I do need to chill. Maybe I'll focus on that for the next few days.  I definitely have an obsessive streak and it often gets the better of me.

Re:incompatible animals. It probably doesn't come across in my messages, but it's actually going really well. obviously I'm not going to be like "okay rats, you go run around on the floor, and Porsche, you please don't touch them" and then pretend it'll be fine. I'm moving forward based on the changes in her attitude toward them that I see, which may not come across perfectly in how I write about the situation (especially when overwhelmed and not wanting to deal with it). The need for hyper vigilance is quickly decreasing.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

I've read this whole thread with interest.
I do think there's a "cultural aspect" for lack of a better term. All those books out there "How to have the perfect puppy in seven days", "How to raise the perfect dog", "Perfect Dog", "X person's perfect dog training kit", etc. I have found a lot of training material/dog material teaches us newbies that every interaction does have to involve training. Heck, according to some prominent positive trainers you are all but failing if you feed your dog in a dog bowl. I realize there are sensitive periods in a dog's development, but the "ticking clock" thing I've heard in more then one book puts a lot of pressure on things. Search on Amazon for "perfect dog" and "perfect puppy". 
I saw a book I'm interested in called "plenty in life is free". I think, from the description of the book, it addresses a lot of what everyone hear has said. Has anyone read it?
My dog is like Porsche...if I let him get away with pulling even one walk, it's going to set us back. I taught him a "go sniff" so he can walk all over the place if he doesn't pull, and that has helped. Butt honestly, even allowing that makes it hard when the next walk I try to get LLW. So I sympathize, although I use a long line on trails or fields.
But I personally find it easier to throw in a command or three during a walk then have a "session". Ex. (We were taught this in class). Have dog sit, give wait command, throw treat, release, then step to the end of the leash while he eats treat and call and have him sit when he gets to you. About a minute, and I've hit
several commands. If the street is uncrowded we'll do it once or twice a walk. TONS of "look at me" work. But he's a puppy, and even too much of that work can have him disengage really quickly.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You can read too much about dog training and overwhelm yourself. I mean.... reading and learning is good but you also need to wade through and figure out what applies to you and what doesn't. The more you read the more you will find contradictions about how to do things. Just remember the end goal of training a pet dog is to have the dog be an enjoyable companion to you, not to have rules just to have rules. 

What I am doing with Hank and LLW (it hasn't been a huge priority) is to differentiate gear. Harness = not working on leash walking. Most his walks are on a harness. When I work LLW I am putting him on a collar. LLW takes time to build up though. When we pass things I don't want him to pull towards we work a heel.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also there is no perfect dog. As much as I joke about Summer being 'perfect', she has her things and misbehaves sometimes too.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

One of my dogs is a rescued x raccoon hunting dog. She was trained from a baby to chase small furry animals. I have a cat. At first the dog was very aggressive and went nuts whenever she saw or even heard the cat. I've had the dog for about 8 months now and we've actually made a lot of progress. Most of this progress has been made by passive training, ex. dog chases cat, I tell her to leave it, she leaves it and I give her treats.Then when we got to a point where the dog saw the cat and didn't chase or bark she would get treats. Now she can see the cat and not freak out like she used to, she will still chase if given the chance though.

A lot of what you're looking for is going to take time. My dog is probably never going to be 100% okay with my cat, but that's fine. The fact that your dog can see and hear the rat everyday is training in itself. Your dog is being desensitized by the presence of the rats. You shouldn't feel like you need to always be actively desensitizing. You will make progress, but it could take months.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Alla, you honestly need to chill.
> 
> You have friends, don't you? Aren't there any times you go for coffee? Do homework in the same room (I know you aren't in college) or do something in the same room without really interacting? Watch tv together? Same principal, apply it to your pet. I feel like you are making your life more difficult than it needs to be. If your anxiety around training is that great, get help for it. Not said in jest, or to be mocking. 100% serious.


I've already suggested this once to her...and I'm going to suggest it again. I have been working with a MH professional myself since last October...it's the best thing I have ever done for myself. I have made great strides forward with my issues of low self worth, anxiety, and my compulsion to be perfect (because that's how I defined myself worth....comes from growing up with a mother with delusional narcissistic personality disorder.) But, I still have a lot of work to do and this might be something I'll struggle with for the rest of my life.



> Maybe I'll focus on that for the next few days


That's why I mentioned my story of getting help...you can't just focus on chilling out for a couple of days and the obsessive behavior is going to change. For both your sake and especially for Porche's sake, changing your total way of thinking is what is going to help. I'm 43 years old....for years people asked me why was I so driven to be perfect and an overachiever. I couldn't answer them...but I couldn't stop it either. I know now I had to prove to the world I was worthy of being here (I was a birth control failure) and I was a good person. Anything I've done in my life was never good enough in my mind...making dean's list at an ivy league, starting my own small business, being on the board of directors for a professional association, my achievements with the dogs...so forth and so on. The more perfect I was, I mistakenly thought that meant people would like/love me. Therapy helped me understand that...therapy is helping me love myself instead of loathing myself. That's where my perfection issues come from....that corrupted operating system that was installed when I was a kid with the narcissistic mother. A couple of days of chilling out more doesn't do much if you're driven to be perfect. Please get some help from a good therapist. A good therapist will help free you from those chains of perfection and obsession. Once those chains start to slack, life is much, much better and easier to live. I speak from experience...


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

CptJack said:


> If you don't want to work on LLW because it's boring, get a no pull harness and be done with it.


Absolutely. Nova has a terrible LLW. It's totally my fault because we only walk on leash for maybe 5 minutes total per week just to enter a building or get to the car. It's just not that important to me to train, and to be honest, I find it so tedious and boring and frustrating that I just never stick with it. She has her no-pull harness for those 5 minutes that we do need to get from point A to point B on a leash and that's good enough for me right now.


I was absolutely exhausted from work yesterday, so we did no training last night (even though we have homework from our agility class). When I am exhausted, I am impatient, and it's not fair to the girls to train in that mindset. We don't get anywhere productive. You have to take care of yourself in order to take care of others because you can't give what you don't have. If you need a break, take a break and come back all the better for it.

If you don't feel like training but she needs something to do, give her a bully stick or an interactive toy and let her go to town.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have done absolutely nothing with Molly since her last agility class. I'm going to regret it later, but frankly right now I just don't care. Her last agility class happened as we were getting ready for a trial with Kylie *and* at the same time school was wrapping up for my kids. There was a lot of craziness and I just didn't have the energy.

And now I'm looking at an agility lesson on Sunday morning and part of me is going "I should work on X, Y, and Z before then so I don't embarrass myself!" but the reality is, this is the first week I've had in MONTHS where I don't have to do two billion things on top of my regular work every single day and you know what? I'd rather embarrass myself than drag Kylie out and work on freaking weaves right now. Also, right now, if I try and work on weaves (like you said) I'll be frustrated. Which will turn Kylie off weaves as much as I'm already turned off them. 

So yeah. No. 

Kylie goes Sunday, Molly goes back Tuesday, and I'll pick up my regular training then. This week is a vacation and I am doing NOTHING I don't have to do. Period and the end.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

pawsaddict said:


> Absolutely. Nova has a terrible LLW. It's totally my fault because we only walk on leash for maybe 5 minutes total per week just to enter a building or get to the car. It's just not that important to me to train, and to be honest, I find it so tedious and boring and frustrating that I just never stick with it. She has her no-pull harness for those 5 minutes that we do need to get from point A to point B on a leash and that's good enough for me right now.
> 
> 
> I was absolutely exhausted from work yesterday, so we did no training last night (even though we have homework from our agility class). When I am exhausted, I am impatient, and it's not fair to the girls to train in that mindset. We don't get anywhere productive. You have to take care of yourself in order to take care of others because you can't give what you don't have. If you need a break, take a break and come back all the better for it.
> ...


What kind of no pull harness do you use? I borrowed an easy walk last night from a friend and it was amazing. I don't know why it took me 8 months to try this with Jazz.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

d_ray said:


> What kind of no pull harness do you use? I borrowed an easy walk last night from a friend and it was amazing. I don't know why it took me 8 months to try this with Jazz.


I used one for a while but don't love them. I noticed Watson's gait changed from wearing it because he was still pulling into it, and tracking sideways when he trotted (even if he wasn't pulling). I honestly just prefer the prong to curb pulling, though I don't know that I would use it on a reactive dog. The couple times he has hit the prong while lunging at another dog it just made him more upset and reactive. It works well for regular pulling though.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I used one for a while but don't love them. I noticed Watson's gait changed from wearing it because he was still pulling into it, and tracking sideways when he trotted (even if he wasn't pulling). I honestly just prefer the prong to curb pulling, though I don't know that I would use it on a reactive dog. The couple times he has hit the prong while lunging at another dog it just made him more upset and reactive. It works well for regular pulling though.


We only really walk on leash for 5 minutes a day to get to off leash areas and then I take it off. We were using a regular harness before and it seemed to make her walk sideways and she would pull even harder.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

d_ray said:


> What kind of no pull harness do you use? I borrowed an easy walk last night from a friend and it was amazing. I don't know why it took me 8 months to try this with Jazz.


I use the Sporn non-pull harness. I like the fuzzy padding it has because Nova basically has no fur in her armpits. It doesn't eliminate the pulling, but it makes it much easier to control her (she is super strong, and I am also a weakling). We tried the easy walk harness, but it rubbed her armpits raw.

We rarely use it (because we rarely use a leash), so I'm not too worried about her gait being altered or anything.

Edit: Nova is far too soft (and reactive) for a prong collar, IMO...though I don't have any issue with them if they are used correctly.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

pawsaddict said:


> I use the Sporn non-pull harness. I like the fuzzy padding it has because Nova basically has no fur in her armpits. It doesn't eliminate the pulling, but it makes it much easier to control her (she is super strong, and I am also a weakling). We tried the easy walk harness, but it rubbed her armpits raw.
> 
> We rarely use it (because we rarely use a leash), so I'm not too worried about her gait being altered or anything.


That's actually one that I'd like to try some day. I like the way it's designed, though I have heard from some people that it didn't work for their dog so I was hesitant to get it and have him pull through. Obviously others love it though so I might give it a shot some day if I need it.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Magic pulls just as hard in an easy-walk, she just goes sideways. I've used a regular harness with a ring on the front so I can clip the leash there too, same thing. I like that better, it is sturdier and I don't have to worry about her slipping out of it. I kind of just gave up though. I'm going to try a prong. She walks a touch better on a martingale collar.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> That's actually one that I'd like to try some day. I like the way it's designed, though I have heard from some people that it didn't work for their dog so I was hesitant to get it and have him pull through. Obviously others love it though so I might give it a shot some day if I need it.


I'm really happy with it and would definitely recommend it, but yeah, I'm sure different styles work better for different dogs and different body types.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I use a prong on Thud, who is my only 'puller' and in all honesty he hasn't pulled in probably a year, maybe even more than that. Even at his worst he lunged suddenly and intensely rather than pulling steadily, so it was actually the safest option. I still use it, but I use it for a backup collar that will engage if his regular collar snaps or slips, and just generally 'in case'. He's just too big for me to feel entirely safe, so meh.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I have done absolutely nothing with Molly since her last agility class. I'm going to regret it later, but frankly right now I just don't care. Her last agility class happened as we were getting ready for a trial with Kylie *and* at the same time school was wrapping up for my kids. There was a lot of craziness and I just didn't have the energy.
> 
> And now I'm looking at an agility lesson on Sunday morning and part of me is going "I should work on X, Y, and Z before then so I don't embarrass myself!" but the reality is, this is the first week I've had in MONTHS where I don't have to do two billion things on top of my regular work every single day and you know what? I'd rather embarrass myself than drag Kylie out and work on freaking weaves right now. Also, right now, if I try and work on weaves (like you said) I'll be frustrated. Which will turn Kylie off weaves as much as I'm already turned off them.
> 
> ...



I'm with you. I would rather be embarrassed for an hour or so than turn my dog off whatever we were working on.

Enjoy your week off! Very well-deserved!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And honestly? While the thought occurred to me, the trainer's not going to care? I said "Sure, I'll take that lesson but don't expect too much because I have done NOTHING" and. Well. I haven't. So she can live with it  (I say that and honestly? Do you REALLY think she cares? I mean. Its *my* time. I paid for it. She knows we usually work. It's okay.)

And thanks. I'm kinda loving it. Molly's over it but I'm loving it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> And honestly? While the thought occurred to me, the trainer's not going to care? I said "Sure, I'll take that lesson but don't expect too much because I have done NOTHING" and. Well. I haven't. So she can live with it  (I say that and honestly? Do you REALLY think she cares? I mean. Its *my* time. I paid for it. She knows we usually work. It's okay.)
> 
> And thanks. I'm kinda loving it. Molly's over it but I'm loving it.


Oh, I've done that so many times. Either I didn't feel like training that week, or I was working on something else for a Fenzi class or for myself and just didn't work on homework for the actual in person class. I figure it's my money to waste. My instructors know me enough by now to know that I'm trying and I'm not a slacker, but they realize that nobody is going to devote every minute to training or progress at the same rate, so they don't really care. If we suck, I just have to take the class again or schedule more lessons and they can't really have a problem with that. haha


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

What sucks is if you go on some training pages and even MENTION the word "prong", you will get crucified. :/


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Porsche wears a prong for most walks/training sessions outside the house. She's a steady puller, not a lunger, so it works for us. 

However I consider the prong to be a training device, so when it goes on for the walk, I'm in LLW/heel training mode. When I don't want to train LLW, I use a flat collar + flexi (she doesn't pull on that unless we're heeling past dogs).

Actually took her today to a new park with lots of dogs and people (and narrow trails) on the flat + flexi. She refused treats and tried to blow me off for every command ("come on, new location, ALL THE SMELLS!"), but overall did very well after I convinced her that yes, smells, but you get smells only after you sit/come/wait/heel/etc. 

I also tried to do some impulse control work at the door, but failed miserably lol, so put that away. 

I'm not as burnt out as I thought.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I guess maybe I should try to work on a more fun trick just for the sake of it... I've been trying to teach touch on and off for a while now with not much luck, maybe I should come back to it? Proofing things we already know is comfortable territory. New tricks is uncomfortable, but maybe it would be a bit more fun? I've also been meaning to try pivots, they look really fun. Every time I try them something always comes up and I have to stop 5 seconds into the exercise. -.-


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I guess maybe I should try to work on a more fun trick just for the sake of it... I've been trying to teach touch on and off for a while now with not much luck, maybe I should come back to it? Proofing things we already know is comfortable territory. New tricks is uncomfortable, but maybe it would be a bit more fun? I've also been meaning to try pivots, they look really fun. Every time I try them something always comes up and I have to stop 5 seconds into the exercise. -.-


Touch is nice and easy and shouldn't be too hard to teach. Most dogs will do it naturally and you just have to reinforce. How have you been trying to teach it?

If you're interested in pivots, I shot and posted a quick video on the other thread about how I trained it.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Touch is nice and easy and shouldn't be too hard to teach. Most dogs will do it naturally and you just have to reinforce. How have you been trying to teach it?
> 
> If you're interested in pivots, I shot and posted a quick video on the other thread about how I trained it.


Mostly I'll put my hand in front of her, she'll touch, I reward. She gets that part well enough. It isn't clicking though, when I put my hand slightly off-center. Only directly in front of her nose. She just stares at me, wondering what to do.

Yep, I'll be trying to follow your video lol.  I think I'll work on both of those things tonight.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Mostly I'll put my hand in front of her, she'll touch, I reward. She gets that part well enough. It isn't clicking though, when I put my hand slightly off-center. Only directly in front of her nose. She just stares at me, wondering what to do.


Are you marking with a clicker? 

I would start with my hand behind my back, then whip it out so she's likely to notice and look towards it. At that point I would click and reward just for looking at it, and she will probably pick up the touching part soon.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yes, marking with a clicker. 

I do start with hand behind my back. But that's a good idea for rewarding the look.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

With Summer and Mia I never trained outside of class. Like... at all. If we did it was dumb tricks. With Hank... I train some but not usually the homework.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I realized at some point that Watson doesn't learn anything in class. Haha. He is too overstimulated by everything going on. So he learned pretty much everything outside of class.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It really depends on what the homework is for me, to be honest. If I see the value in the skill, if the dog grasps it or not, whatever. It just varies. I don't do a lot of homework from classes, I admit freely, because usually by the time I'm in the class it's teaching a concept I'm very familiar with and have already worked on the dog with.

Private lessons are different for me. For me, those are targeted directly to me and my dog based on where we are now - not tied to a 'lesson plan', or based on how the class as a whole is doing. It is absolutely and always useful for ME. 

I'm STILL, clearly, not above going 'yeah, we didn't do that/work on that this week'. Stuff happens.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Yeah... At this point I hardly train with Jubel. We go to a nosework travel class most weekends, I'm trying to find a barn hunt class... But yeah other training is pretty rare theses days.

Foster dogs get some training, depends on the dog and what they need and how much it will help their adoptability and my sanity living with them. Daphne doesn't get a large amount of focused training. The majority of her training is done at meal times and when she gets crated. In 5 months I've probably done 3-5 true training sessions, everything else is brief 1-5 attempts at something new or asking for known skills. Plus some impulse control exercises at meals for her, meals for us, leashing up for walks, getting out of the crate.

Edit: oh and I rarely did any homework for classes with Jubel.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Barring things I try to do at home at least semi-regularly like some body awareness and conditioning exercises that I don't really consider "training" exactly...

There would be no living with Toast if we didn't do some kind of training every day. He's still at the age where I'm constantly reinforcing/proofing house manners (waiting at thresholds, etc) so that helps. But he really, REALLY needs some kind of active learning every day or he gets twitchy. I could not physically exercise him enough to tire him purely through activity. 

Squash... it depends. We are mostly doing agility right now, and I will practice some handling at home and some of his skills. But I will go long periods of time without any practice at home, either. Most of our other class time (drop-in rally and obedience) time is more maintenance than learning new things at this point. 

Maisy and Pip ahahaaaaa. No. Maisy knows all her mushing commands and Pip is perfect. So at home they mostly just get to sleep unless I go on a trick training bender.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I was thinking about this thread tonight (and the one with all the talk about learning styles and approaches) and realized basically dog training for me is like any other somewhat creative hobby I have.

Knitting, writing, roleplaying, music, and dog training all fall into the same spot for me. When I'm inspired and feeling it, I get a little bit obsessive and do tons of it and am on fire. When I'm not inspired, don't have an idea/vision, just am not feeling it, I still do it but in fits and starts and with little intensity and lots of time off.

Ie: When I have new yarn I love and a plan for it, I will knit until my fingers fall off. When there is a piece of music I want to be able to play/am in love with, I am on it until I get it. When I have a training goal because *I* want it, I will train as much as the dog will put up with. 

The times between I do stuff to do it because dogs are alive and benefit from it and it's one of the big ways I interact with my dogs and/or it's necessary to make them pleasant to live with. But it's the times I go 'I CAN TEACH KYLIE TO PLAY PATTY-CAKE and it will be adorable!' that I pretty much want to train daily (or multiple times a day). Then I get it and until I have another bright idea - Eh. 

(Molly does get more randomly, at least more new learning. She enjoys it, it's easy for me and it stretches out how long she can go without getting a lot of heavy exercise. She's also, admittedly, capable of more 'fun' (for me) stuff like vaults and stalls rebounds and disc and whatever, based on physical ability.)


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Incompatiable animals in a household together is fine by me - if you can keep them all safe, and that means, IMO, separation sometimes Like lifelong, don't even interact or see each other, separation similar to crate and rotate with dogs who want to kill each


Yeah, should have included this caveat. My house just isn't set up for it, though. It requires a vigilance on the part of everyone in the household that I just don't care to adhere to, either. I remember when I was a kid my brother had a hamster cage in his room. It was a tightly secured cage and the door to the bedroom was always supposed to be closed, too. One day someone left the door open, though, as will inevitably eventually happen, and the dog got in and somehow bit the hamster's little hamster leg off through the cage, since she couldn't get the whole hamster out of the cage. Not sure how she managed it. Thing bled out before anyone knew what had happened, of course. Pretty unpleasant.



> Teaching a dog with preydrive to leave small fuzzy animals is okay. But trying to train preydrive out to the degree that the small fuzzy animal and the dog with preydrive are out and exposed to each other all the time is like trying to teach a dog with DA not to to be DA. It's not going to work, and it's going to stress everyone out, and honestly just sort of strikes me as arrogant? Like possessing the belief that you can TRAIN a dog to be ANYTHING you want them to be.
> 
> And really dangerous for the small fuzzy thing.
> 
> They aren't robots. You don't program them. Some things are hardwired. They have personalities and drives and strengths and abilities and weaknesses and all sorts of other things :/


This is a pretty good description of my feelings, yeah.

Plus I tend to think that even if they can survivably coexist it's pretty stressful for them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=165Ed0xvRY0

Found this on my playlist this morning (again), and reminded me of this thread. Real good explanation of why 'fun with your dog' rather than trying to make them perfect is important, I think.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

CptJack said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=165Ed0xvRY0
> 
> Found this on my playlist this morning (again), and reminded me of this thread. Real good explanation of why 'fun with your dog' rather than trying to make them perfect is important, I think.


Gosh, that is so sweet I teared up a little!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

You guys are all saying to focus on having fun, put aside training for now, and just figure out how to enjoy the time with the dog... Which got me thinking, what do I enjoy doing with dogs? I enjoy wrestling, I enjoy playing fetch and tug, I enjoy cuddling on the couch with the dog in my lap (or with me on the floor in the dog's lap). Conveniently, all things that Porsche won't do without a ton more training invested. What do I enjoy out of all the things Porsche will do? Walks, moderately. Training, when I'm up for it. But not really anything that's like... as much enjoyment as the 3 above. When I was getting a dog, those are the 3 activities I primarily dreamed and fantasized about. The walking and training were necessary evils, that I've had to learn to enjoy because top 3 aren't currently options. 

Maybe if I'm going to train regardless, I should focus on training those top 3 activities at least in some fashion?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If you are going to train anyway, you can work on making those things fun for her. Reinforce her, make them awesome for her and they'll come. Goodness knows I've built up toy drive and play drive, both to use and because it's just fun and enjoyable to me. 

I just... also think at its heart what people here are trying to tell you is that you have the dog you have, and in the scheme of things you aren't going to have her for very long. Work on things, build toward things, but also try and find ways to appreciate who she is and where she is *now*. Ten years seems like a really long time, but when you realize it's a lifetime, it's not. You get a year or two with a puppy, a few or handful of years with a dog in its prime, and if you're lucky another handful with them when they're old. Then they're gone. Forever. Cherish what you've got while you've got it, as much as you can find it in yourself to do, at every stage of the journey. It's over in a blink, you know? It's not like you get a second shot at that. Don't waste it all looking toward the finish line and miss the journey. (To quote that video).


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

One thing I have learned and relearned from dogs: The more you push, they more they pull away. If a person tries to get close too fast, many dogs create distance. It's like many relationships: If one partner gets too needy, the other needs space.

I seem to be able to get dogs to warm up to me real fast because I don't ask for anything. Seems to draw dogs in. I'm always happy to receive attention from dogs, but I don't seek it.

When I want to go for a walk without training, I put my dogs in harnesses and snap on a flexi and off we go. I don't talk. We just go. As long as my dogs aren't pulling my arm out of its socket, I just let them be. If we are going on a low-training walk, I use a collar and a 6 foot leash and we mostly just work loose leash walking.

When I learn to play with a new dog, it's all about compromise. I look at play as a team event. I play very differently with each of my 3 dogs. In fact, I don't think that they could be much more different. I enjoy all of them very much, but I only get about half a say in how play goes. I have an over-aroused tugging monster who I must be very careful with. I have a personal-play junkie that likes slapping me around. I have a dog that loves Frisbee and hand-touching and weaving through my legs. They're all awesome, but they are nothing alike. 

All of my dogs will sometimes lay for hours draped over me on the couch, but all of them will also decide to leave me to lay on the deck or bury into the blankets on my bed. They come and go and they are free to do that.

When I first started in dogs, I tried to "build" my dog. I spent so much time training. My first wonderful dog became everything I wanted her to be, but looking back, I regret not spending more time just watching her and seeing who she was BORN to be. As I've gained experience, I've grown wiser. I love just letting my dogs reveal themselves, their interests, their needs. It's so much more rewarding. Most of the time I spend with my dogs is passive. That said, I have 3 dogs who actively compete in 3 or 4 sports each. We train, but most of the time, we're just together. I have terriers and hounds and they live quietly with rats, parrots, and turtles. The peace just unfolded.

Pressure is a killer in training and trust. If possible, just erase your expectations and let things unfold. It's so much more fun.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> One thing I have learned and relearned from dogs: The more you push, they more they pull away. If a person tries to get close too fast, many dogs create distance. It's like many relationships: If one partner gets too needy, the other needs space.
> 
> I seem to be able to get dogs to warm up to me real fast because I don't ask for anything. Seems to draw dogs in. I'm always happy to receive attention from dogs, but I don't seek it.
> 
> ...


^^^ This post wins this thread! Brilliant!!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

As always, MrsBoats, you are too kind!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Agreed, your post wins the thread. 

I… yeah. I’m a little lost. She’s making such progress with the rats that I’m no longer on 100% vigilance. She mostly sits and watches the cage if they’re making noise, and if they’re not, she doesn’t really pay attention. 

But that’s beside the point. I decided to skip any kind of training today (other than impulse control at doors, can’t let up on that). So we went for a walk on her flat + flexi, and she was very good as expected. Met dogs a few times, walked past them in heel without much issues. 

What do you guys do with your dogs for fun? 

I’ve tried all the ways of playing with her that training junkie listed, and many more, without much luck. She’ll chase me in the house, but we have slippery floors, and she won’t chase me outside. I guess I can train that, but we’re back to training again lol.

I realize I said she wasn’t cuddly in a laying-with-you-on-the-couch way, but it’s more like she will refuse any petting that she didn’t ask for… I have the most luck with her enjoying petting right when I come home from somewhere. That’s pretty much it, actually. Any other time, she’ll allow petting and touching but she’ll try to leave after a few seconds. If you hold her she’ll stay, but in a “okay, guess i have to” way. We can pick her up no problem, brush her no problem. She just doesn’t enjoy any of that and will try to leave if she can.

Am I expecting too much after having her for under 3 months?

It seems the only kind of interaction we can have is training, very occasional petting (i.e. when I come home from work), and ignoring each other.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I go for walks with my dog, or hiking. That's probably our main source of fun. I'll admit that there were walks where I wanted to kill him, but now that he's older and settle down and more in tune with me, we just go on nice happy walks where he sniffs and does his thing, I look out at the scenery, and occasionally we check in with each other for a little cuddle or something. Sure he pulls sometimes, and I do bring treats to keep his attention when other dogs pass - it's not like we are 100% perfect. But we have an understanding of what we do on walks and we can just be together. At home we just hang out. We snuggle, or he does silly things and I laugh at him. He follows me into the bathroom and watches me when I'm cooking in case I'm willing to give him cheese. We also interact with a lot of little tricks and things that have built up organically through the years. He loves to high five, so we do that randomly, like if I think he did something funny I'll say "Hi five, dude!" Or he loves to catch things so I'll throw him little bits of cheese while I'm cooking for him to catch. Some of those things were trained interactions, but they were done through shaping and were just super fun. No rules, no expectations, just "what fun thing do you want to do?" and they became every day ways that we interact in sort of a shared language. I think this is why tricks are so important. You teach the dog your language, they know how to respond to what you're saying, and you both feed off of that fun feeling. Long stays and waiting at the door are not fun interactions for either of you. 

Some dogs are just very aloof. And you've had her such a short time and I don't think you guys have had a chance to develop a relationship yet, but she could also just be a dog who is very reserved. If you get up and walk around the house, does she follow you? Does she seek you out? Every time she looks at you or comes near you I would praise (but don't pet, if she doesn't like that). Talk in a happy voice, tell her stupid things, make her tail wag. Show her that paying attention to you in the house is nice. And if she doesn't follow you around or come near you, then just let her be. 

I do think that if you continue in the mindset that everything is training and you must make sure the rules are followed all the time, it will just push her away more and she will be less likely to seek you out.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I have a suggestion for tonight:

Get 3 empty Cool Whip containers (or something along those lines.) Put a piece of cheese (hot dog, liver, dog treat) under one of the containers. Encourage Porsche to get it. Help her by lifting the corner of the container if you need to. Repeat a few times. Then put out 2 containers with a treat under only one. She might knock both over to find the treat. That's fine! Go to 3 containers. Wait and see if she problem solves by searching for the treat with her nose or if she just bulldozes all three. Whatever she does, be happy for her. Just celebrate the game. Clap. Tell her she's brilliant! No matter what she does.

Sometimes dogs just have to get to be right for a while. 3 months isn't very long for a shepherd to adjust. They are thinking dogs. Give her a few more months. It took almost a year for my latest adult rehome to really show himself. We did a lot of things and had a lot of fun during that year, but it took about that for me to see all of him. And who knows, maybe there's more to come?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I have a suggestion for tonight:
> 
> Get 3 empty Cool Whip containers (or something along those lines.) Put a piece of cheese (hot dog, liver, dog treat) under one of the containers. Encourage Porsche to get it. Help her by lifting the corner of the container if you need to. Repeat a few times. Then put out 2 containers with a treat under only one. She might knock both over to find the treat. That's fine! Go to 3 containers. Wait and see if she problem solves by searching for the treat with her nose or if she just bulldozes all three. Whatever she does, be happy for her. Just celebrate the game. Clap. Tell her she's brilliant! No matter what she does.
> 
> Sometimes dogs just have to get to be right for a while. 3 months isn't very long for a shepherd to adjust. They are thinking dogs. Give her a few more months. It took almost a year for my latest adult rehome to really show himself. We did a lot of things and had a lot of fun during that year, but it took about that for me to see all of him. And who knows, maybe there's more to come?


Love this idea. Scentwork games are so motivating and confidence building for dogs. It's finally something they can do, without your input, and they love it.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yes, she will follow me around the house. If I get really far away from the rats (and they’re up and active), she’ll run back and forth between me and them. Mostly she sticks with me, in the same room/general area. I’d believe that she’s just an aloof dog in general though. At least with strangers, for sure, they don’t exist for her, they’re obstacles in her view. 

Yeah, re: tricks, that’ll have to wait a bit while I recover a bit. 

Porsche really enjoys car rides, whether they go anywhere or not. I actually had to hide the car in the garage today so we could actually go for a walk at lunch instead of driving somewhere and going for a walk. She enjoys going to new places a lot. 

I guess I just need to stop. overthinking. everything. lol. 

Was walking her at lunch today and the wheels were in overdrive. “Hey, this is a great time to ask for a come. You should heel right here. Why did you just miss the perfect opportunity to ask for a wait? She pulled briefly, why didn’t you 180?? You’re missing all these opportunities for proofing! Inefficiency!!!” and I was just like “shut up brain, everyone is safe, can we just walk? please? why do i need to be guilt tripped over every missed opportunity?”

Part of it is also just fear that if I don’t address it now, i’ll never address it (or it will get worse/never get better). If I don’t make myself interesting and fun and give her lots of treats, she’ll just hang out with the rat cage forever, cause THEY sure are interesting and fun and have the promise of treats. 

Re: nosework. We’ve played that before, and I kind of put it away because it’s incredibly mentally and physically taxing for me. But I still have all my boxes and stuff from it, so maybe I’l try tonight if I’m up for it. We’ll see if she’s still interested. Lol, I should get some rat droppings and use that. I bet you it's going to be MUCH more effective than a measly treat. lol.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I love scentwork games. Some nights, I hide treats around the main floor and just sit back and let each dog (one at a time, though) just find and enjoy them. I watch and encourage them. It's fun for everyone.

Edit: nosework doesn't have to be all formal....Sometimes I set up boxes for them and we make more of an event out of it, but most of the time it's "find the treats in the livingroom at your own pace." No commands from me...just encouragement and maybe a little help to point them in the right direction every once in a while.

If Porsche likes car rides, maybe just take her to a drive-thru and give her a lick of an ice cream cone or share a french fry with her.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I guess I just need to stop. overthinking. everything. lol.
> 
> Was walking her at lunch today and the wheels were in overdrive. “Hey, this is a great time to ask for a come. You should heel right here. Why did you just miss the perfect opportunity to ask for a wait? She pulled briefly, why didn’t you 180?? You’re missing all these opportunities for proofing! Inefficiency!!!” and I was just like “shut up brain, everyone is safe, can we just walk? please? why do i need to be guilt tripped over every missed opportunity?”
> 
> Part of it is also just fear that if I don’t address it now, i’ll never address it (or it will get worse/never get better). If I don’t make myself interesting and fun and give her lots of treats, she’ll just hang out with the rat cage forever, cause THEY sure are interesting and fun and have the promise of treats.


Yes, you are over thinking. Eventually those kind of little training moments will just come naturally, where you ask for a recall on a walk just because, the dog comes back, you reward, and move on. But if you have to think so hard about it, and spend your whole walk thinking about what you could be training at that moment, you are doing too much. She probably isn't enjoying it that much either. Just try to let go completely and don't worry. It's not like dogs rapidly escalate everything unless you keep a firm hand on them. Pulling a tiny bit one moment does not mean she's going to be a freight train by the end of the week. And you have her on leash, if she needs to wait just apply a little leash pressure until she stops. But don't think. Don't look for training opportunities. Don't do anything. Just look around at the scenery and let her do the same. If she checks in with you, praise her and tell her she's such a sweet girl, and then continue with the walk.

You just have to let dogs be dogs. If she wants to sit and stare at the rats for a while, who cares? You said she mostly follows you around, so talk to her in a silly voice. You don't have to be fun and exciting, you just have to chat with her like you would anyone else in your home. Just let her be herself and be yourself and don't think so much about what is happening and what you are doing.



> Re: nosework. We’ve played that before, and I kind of put it away because it’s incredibly mentally and physically taxing for me. But I still have all my boxes and stuff from it, so maybe I’l try tonight if I’m up for it. We’ll see if she’s still interested. Lol, I should get some rat droppings and use that. I bet you it's going to be MUCH more effective than a measly treat. lol.


Why is it mentally and physically taxing for you? Just get some plastic cups and put some food under them and sit on the ground while she paws them around and tries to get the food out. Easy! You're still way over thinking this.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Why is it mentally and physically taxing for you? Just get some plastic cups and put some food under them and sit on the ground while she paws them around and tries to get the food out. Easy! You're still way over thinking this.


Lol because it takes her under 10 seconds to find a treat under one of 12 boxes placed along the entire first floor. Then I have to catch her, tether, and move all the boxes around so she doesn't see where I'm putting the treat now. It's a lot of bending up and down, and the breaks between them are very little. If I make the hides harder, or put more of them, she loses interest and goes to do something else and then I have to jump around and keep bending up and down some more to keep her searching. I also have to do the re-hides really quick while she's still excited to search, because if I take my time with that she loses interest and she's like "what? why would I do that? how about I just sit in front of you and you show me which one has the treat?". It adds up lol. 

I've also done the treat under 3 cups kind of thing where I sit on the floor. She flips the cups over in literally a second and grabs them and carries them around, and then I have to go chase her down before she breaks the plastic. No interest at all in the stainless steel bowls flipped upside down, she just waits for me to raise them so she can get the treat, and if i don't, she leaves.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Well if you ever intend to actually do barn hunts I would suggest NOT using rat droppings for nosework. That would only reinforce alerting on litter while wouldn't be good in barn hunt. As everyone else is saying you just need to chill out and leave her alone to some extent. 

Too much focus on her ALL the time and she is likely to pull away more from you. You want her to be more interested in you and wanting to snuggle with you then ONLY cuddle/pet her when she comes to you. When she DOES come to you figure out what kind of attention she likes the best and do that. It's all about her and what SHE likes right now, not what you wish she enjoyed doing with you. 

If you want to bring out her happy playful side then whenever she shows that side you need to reward it with whatever SHE thinks is the best reward ever. You'll see more of those behaviors overtime but like everyone is saying she is still very new and it's going to take time.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Lol because it takes her under 10 seconds to find a treat under one of 12 boxes placed along the entire first floor. Then I have to catch her, tether, and move all the boxes around so she doesn't see where I'm putting the treat now. It's a lot of bending up and down, and the breaks between them are very little. If I make the hides harder, or put more of them, she loses interest and goes to do something else and then I have to jump around and keep bending up and down some more to keep her searching. I also have to do the re-hides really quick while she's still excited to search, because if I take my time with that she loses interest and she's like "what? why would I do that? how about I just sit in front of you and you show me which one has the treat?". It adds up lol.
> 
> I've also done the treat under 3 cups kind of thing where I sit on the floor. She flips the cups over in literally a second and grabs them and carries them around, and then I have to go chase her down before she breaks the plastic. No interest at all in the stainless steel bowls flipped upside down, she just waits for me to raise them so she can get the treat, and if i don't, she leaves.


If she's leaving the search, you're moving on too fast. Just make them easy. Who cares if she can get them in 10 seconds? It's fun for her to be right and to lead the game. Just get a pile of boxes and throw a treat in. And by pile I mean like 3. Not 12. And when she finds it just have a little party with her. Don't be so concerned about setting it up again right away. Encourage her to slam through the boxes to find the treat and tell her what a smart girl she is when she finds it. Then use a treat to lure her back to the tether and hide another one. Don't worry so much about whether she can see you, just throw it into the pile and jumble the boxes back up.

If she picks up the cup, why not just show her that you have treats and see if she will trade. Or just tell her she's awesome and so smart for picking up the cups and laugh at her. This is how you have fun with dogs, but taking what they give you and just enjoying them acting like themselves. If you put rules on everything she can do, and get exasperated when she doesn't follow the rules you've imagined (like how to search under cups without picking them up) then she's not going to want to play these games with you.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I’m reading this thread and my own posts and I remind myself of that phrase “help, we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”. I’m so into the overthinking that i don’t see the forest for the trees. I’m focused on “she won’t do X or Y, and i feel like Z”, instead of stepping out of the box and figuring out a different way to approach or look at the situation. 

Sorry guys. I know you’re trying to get through to me and i’m being particularly thickheaded. I really appreciate all the effort from everyone.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Love this idea. Scentwork games are so motivating and confidence building for dogs. It's finally something they can do, without your input, and they love it.


I do this game with Lincoln and he loves it, we are up to two containers now!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I’m reading this thread and my own posts and I remind myself of that phrase “help, we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!”. I’m so into the overthinking that i don’t see the forest for the trees. I’m focused on “she won’t do X or Y, and i feel like Z”, instead of stepping out of the box and figuring out a different way to approach or look at the situation.
> 
> Sorry guys. I know you’re trying to get through to me and i’m being particularly thickheaded. I really appreciate all the effort from everyone.


Try to make it your goal for her to enjoy herself. Drop all of the rules and all of your expectations of how she should interact with the toy or the game, and just let her go wild. Then when you see something that seems to be fun for her, encourage her. Just talk with her and laugh with her and tell her she's awesome.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Try to make it your goal for her to enjoy herself. Drop all of the rules and all of your expectations of how she should interact with the toy or the game, and just let her go wild. Then when you see something that seems to be fun for her, encourage her. Just talk with her and laugh with her and tell her she's awesome.


^^^This!
She decides what is and isn't fun. Later you can try and build up some activities you would like to do with her and maybe she'll decide it's fun because it makes you happy...maybe she will always find it boring but you never know. For now just encourage what she finds fun as long as it's safe for all involved. Jubel isn't big on playing fetch, never has been. Every now and then he gets really into it and has a blast doing it but in general his just not into it. 

I can get him to fetch inside the house for treats, I use this as an energy outlet when the weather is nasty outside. If I don't have treats he's not interested. Though recently he's becoming more interested in it, mostly due to my last two foster dogs who are fetch fiends. They are SO excited about it he gets sucked in, if they are having so much fun there MUST be something to it. He will fetch the ball and come back to me with this look of "you tricked me...this isn't fun" sometimes but he really is starting to enjoy it occasionally. I've had Jubel for just over 5 years now, only in the last 8 or 9 months has he grown more interest in fetch. You never know what might happen years down the road.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

You’re so right. I’m so caught up in the whole “must not pull, must sit for food, must sit for car, must X, must Y” that it’s kind of taking over my life. 

I’ve figured out a way to remove the rats from my stress level completely - I’ve got her crate set up such that it is blocking the rat cage, so that if she wants to be closest to the rats, the crate (it’s wire) prevents her from jumping. And if she’s further away, outside the crate, she doesn’t feel the need to jump. So I’m no longer crating her while I’m gone, and no longer watching her every minute to make sure the paws are on the ground. 

Yeah it’s ugly and takes up too much space in my living room, but I can live with it as a temporary measure. 

So I started paying attention when she actually comes up and asks for affection, and it’s more often than I thought. She won’t settle next to me, but she’ll occasionally come up to wherever I am and ask for petting. Then she’ll stay for about 30 seconds and once she’s had enough she’ll leave. It happens throughout the day though. I guess I just never noticed it because it was short and always interrupts whatever I’m doing, making it mildly annoying. 

Thankfully she walks like a charm on the flexi, so i’ve begun stopping pressuring myself to do training walks on a short leash. I still feel the guilt of lost opportunity and inefficiency, but it’s easier to put it aside and just be like “flexi it is”. I can still ask her to heel past dogs and it’s fine.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

dagwall said:


> ^^^This!
> She decides what is and isn't fun. Later you can try and build up some activities you would like to do with her and maybe she'll decide it's fun because it makes you happy...maybe she will always find it boring but you never know. For now just encourage what she finds fun as long as it's safe for all involved. Jubel isn't big on playing fetch, never has been. Every now and then he gets really into it and has a blast doing it but in general his just not into it.
> 
> I can get him to fetch inside the house for treats, I use this as an energy outlet when the weather is nasty outside. If I don't have treats he's not interested. Though recently he's becoming more interested in it, mostly due to my last two foster dogs who are fetch fiends. They are SO excited about it he gets sucked in, if they are having so much fun there MUST be something to it. He will fetch the ball and come back to me with this look of "you tricked me...this isn't fun" sometimes but he really is starting to enjoy it occasionally. I've had Jubel for just over 5 years now, only in the last 8 or 9 months has he grown more interest in fetch. You never know what might happen years down the road.


lol, yes. Cas never gave a flip about fetch in the 1.5 years I've had him until last week, at which point he suddenly decided that chasing this stupid squeaky sun toy was THE BEST THING and if he could fling it at me, all the better. I don't understand. But I'm happy he's happy.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Scent work shouldn't be hard. Even the more 'formal' stuff we do with actual odor and working on alerts and different trial challenges is pretty easy to set up. The most informal ones I do is I'll take some treats and hide them in the room or yard. Sometimes I will even just toss treats in the grass without any thought at all. They love it and it makes them use their brains at least some. Some days I am too lazy to do too much more and they like it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Other things to just 'do' other than walk:

- hang out outside. Yard, park, whatever. Sometimes I go sit and they do their doggy sniffy things and eating grass. They enjoy just spending time together places
- car rides. Summer loves going with me on short errands weather permitting or we go grab coffee in the drive thru together.
- talk to her. I babble all the time to my dogs. If she's interested in you and what you're doing, let her know you like that and she's a good girl! One stupid thing that Mia adores doing is just helping me take out the trash. Probably more like 'helping' me.... but in her mind it's Important Mia Job.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Lol I think I fail miserably lmao!

I got a big pizzle stick and I thought hey, this is like a real wood stick except it smells good so Porsche will want it! So I went outside with her and ran around, having her chase me and grab the stick. at first she complied but then she got confused and she was like "why are you doing this? Either give it to me or don't, stop teasing!" And then she up and left. She was off leash in our unfenced backyard, so she ran up around the front and to the door. I followed of course, gave up and gave her the pizzle and now she's chewing it inside lol.

At first when she was running around after me it was so much fun, almost like real playing! But then she was like "this is not fair, I'm out of here" and I felt sad. 

I should've like, brought some other cookies or something to reward her for catching the stick, but I didn't think of that..


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You needed to just give her the stick sooner. Dogs won't go from not playing to playing for minutes at a time in a session or two. You want to keep the requirements LOW. Stop while she's interested and before she has a chance to check out.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

The whole thing was over in less than 30 seconds. She only had time to do maybe 3 catches before she was done - I was going to give her the stick quickly but I guess overestimated how much she wanted the stick, and didn't realize I should've maybe done only one catch and then let her have it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes at this point 30 seconds is just too much for her. It's ok if at first it's just you getting her to be silly for a couple seconds.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I feel you. Luna is the same way in that her interest in play/toys is very minimal, so it's hard for me to play with her in the traditional sense.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm not sure if her being in heat has anything to do with it (she flags at the slightest touch!), but she's been a LOT more cuddly the past few days. Joining us on the couch, asking for pets, licking hands and arms, giving hugs, etc. It's adorable.  I hope it doesn't pass when her heat passes! lol.

I've managed to back off significantly from my training obsession. I still do train, but I no longer make myself do it, or create rules around it. The only rule is - I can train if and only if I'm already training by the time I realize I want to train. 

Yesterday, for example, I fed her her entire dinner over like 5 training sessions selecting for a pretty down as opposed to her usual splat-on-the-floor. By the time I realized I was training I was already on session 3. 

I've just been taking her for car rides and nice enjoyable walks, on whichever collar I feel like using, without creating any "must heel on this collar" rules. 
Been giving her treats for coming up onto the couch (in her designated corner of it). 
Stopped giving her affection she didn't ask for. 

Created a way where I don't need to watch her around the rat cage - her crate, always open and pushed right up to the cage, prevents her from jumping and simultaneously acts as a safe zone for further desensitization (without me having to do anything active to facilitate). 

So yeah.  Feeling much better.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Glad things are going better for you!

Interesting article on play: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...g-won-t-play-with-you-it-could-be-your-fault/


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

There was a moment in our advanced obedience class this week that made me think of this thread. 

Out of nowhere (this was not part of the class topics covered) the instructor asked us all to show a trick that our dog knew. Didn't have to be anything fancy, just something. Then, she assigned us for next week to teach our dogs a new trick, and talked about how sometimes we get so caught up in the formal-ness of obedience that we need to break and do something fun instead.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> There was a moment in our advanced obedience class this week that made me think of this thread.
> 
> Out of nowhere (this was not part of the class topics covered) the instructor asked us all to show a trick that our dog knew. Didn't have to be anything fancy, just something. Then, she assigned us for next week to teach our dogs a new trick, and talked about how sometimes we get so caught up in the formal-ness of obedience that we need to break and do something fun instead.


LOL Porsche's only trick is a pretty down. Which is still only pretty 50% of the time. 
Which shows my priorities, lmao. 
Well actually she knows give paw, but her previous owners taught her that. 

I've had some luck with teaching touch using elrohwen's idea, but haven't spent much time on it. Doing lots of impulse control in and out of the car and in and out of the front door.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Impulse control is really hard for dogs, unless the dog is really mellow and already has great impulse control. I bet she would enjoy working on things that allow her to move a bit and be active, vs stationary positions and impulse control. I think you need to keep a balance. For dogs who are crazy and all over the place, work impulse control. For dogs who are calm already, work active stuff. Porsche doesn't seem crazy and all over the place, so personally I would be working on fun tricks and things that encouraged her to let loose. It will be much more fun for both of you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The nice thing about tricks is there is no pressure on you or the dog to 'do it right'. It gives you a lot more freedom to play with things and learn how your dog learns. Plus a lot of dogs find tricks very motivating so in the future if they're having some trouble being into a training session you can ask for a nose touch or whatever else your dog likes to do. It becomes a fallback/motivating game on its own. And in addition you can impress people with weird parlor tricks.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I seriously never intended to teach Luna tricks as a general rule. I thought it was boring and not important.

Then we took a class on teaching your dog how to copy what you do, which essentially turned out to also be a tricks class because you have to first teach the dog the behaviours you want them to copy. I had so much fun and it made such an impact on our relationship that I subsequently signed up for an actual tricks class. We now know so many tricks, hahaha.

So... our struggle with this assignment is not teaching the trick... it's finding a trick she doesn't know that is simple enough to get in a week, lol. I've decided we're going to do her spinning on cue while I walk. We did a bit of working on that in our tricks class but she doesn't know it by any means, and she seemed more enthusiastic about spinning while walking vs just spinning in front of me while I was standing still.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> The nice thing about tricks is there is no pressure on you or the dog to 'do it right'. It gives you a lot more freedom to play with things and learn how your dog learns. Plus a lot of dogs find tricks very motivating so in the future if they're having some trouble being into a training session you can ask for a nose touch or whatever else your dog likes to do. and in addition you can impress people with weird parlor tricks.


Totally agree. 

Watson has a handful of tricks that he *loves* to do, and there is nothing else that gets him up and excited to work and train as doing those tricks. A trick can really become reinforcing for the dog all on its own, which is helpful when you don't have treats.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I feel kind of like we're always throwing information at you/making suggestions and that might overwhelm me. So first? You're doing great and I'm REALLY glad you've relaxed and are having more fun.

I do think you want to be careful how much impulse control/commands that require precision and control you do with Porsche, if you want her to be more active/playful, though. Teaching her that good things come only from being reserved/calm/deliberate isn't really going to encourage her to PLAY with you (and does kind of the opposite by making being deliberate/calm/reserved/controlled the rewarding/valuable thing) and I know wrestling and play and toys are things you want from her.

Maybe teach her to spin when you decide to add a new one?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> So... our struggle with this assignment is not teaching the trick... it's finding a trick she doesn't know that is simple enough to get in a week, lol. I've decided we're going to do her spinning on cue while I walk. We did a bit of working on that in our tricks class but she doesn't know it by any means, and she seemed more enthusiastic about spinning while walking vs just spinning in front of me while I was standing still.


That's a really useful thing to have when you're working on heeling. You can inject a lot of energy by asking for spins or hand touches during heeling.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> I feel kind of like we're always throwing information at you/making suggestions and that might overwhelm me. So first? You're doing great and I'm REALLY glad you've relaxed and are having more fun.
> 
> *I do think you want to be careful how much impulse control/commands that require precision and control you do with Porsche, if you want her to be more active/playful, though. Teaching her that good things come only from being reserved/calm/deliberate isn't really going to encourage her to PLAY with you (and does kind of the opposite by making being deliberate/calm/reserved/controlled the rewarding/valuable thing) and I know wrestling and play and toys are things you want from her.
> *
> Maybe teach her to spin when you decide to add a new one?


Yes yes this! This is what I am trying to say.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I do think you want to be careful how much impulse control/commands that require precision and control you do with Porsche, if you want her to be more active/playful, though. Teaching her that good things come only from being reserved/calm/deliberate isn't really going to encourage her to PLAY with you (and does kind of the opposite by making being deliberate/calm/reserved/controlled the rewarding/valuable thing) and I know wrestling and play and toys are things you want from her.


Yes, 100%.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also. I pretty much trained paw (shake, whatever you want to call it) because like EVERYONE would ask my dog to shake and she didn't know it and just looked at them like they were crazy. I was getting tired of people presuming my dog was stupid and/or untrained because she didn't know the one trick that everyone tried to get her to do. (not that anybody said anything, but you know, you feel the judgment, lol)

So now she knows shake and they can all shut up and otherwise be amazed.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Also. I pretty much trained paw (shake, whatever you want to call it) because like EVERYONE would ask my dog to shake and she didn't know it and just looked at them like they were crazy. I was getting tired of people presuming my dog was stupid and/or untrained because she didn't know the one trick that everyone tried to get her to do. (not that anybody said anything, but you know, you feel the judgment, lol)
> 
> So now she knows shake and they can all shut up and otherwise be amazed.


Watson sandbags people all the time. If they ask him to "shake" he looks like he has no idea what they want. So I tell them to flip their hand palm out and ask for a high five, and suddenly he does it.

I know for a fact that I can ask for a shake and he will do it for me. I'm not sure if he's really confused about what they want, of if he's just playing dumb and wants them to ask for it the right way


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Watson sandbags people all the time. If they ask him to "shake" he looks like he has no idea what they want. So I tell them to flip their hand palm out and ask for a high five, and suddenly he does it.
> 
> I know for a fact that I can ask for a shake and he will do it for me. I'm not sure if he's really confused about what they want, of if he's just playing dumb and wants them to ask for it the right way


When we were at the auto repair place on Friday was the first time that a stranger asked for it (one of the mechanics) and I breathed a sign of relief when she did it for him, lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kylie does nothing for ANYONE that isn't me. My *husband* asked her to sit, while he was standing there with a treat, she looked at him for a half second, turned around and WALKED TO ME and sat. IT's... really ridiculous.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> Also. I pretty much trained paw (shake, whatever you want to call it) because like EVERYONE would ask my dog to shake and she didn't know it and just looked at them like they were crazy. I was getting tired of people presuming my dog was stupid and/or untrained because she didn't know the one trick that everyone tried to get her to do. (not that anybody said anything, but you know, you feel the judgment, lol)
> 
> So now she knows shake and they can all shut up and otherwise be amazed.


Ha, Toast and I were over at the neighbor's the other day and he asked Toast to shake. I realized that I haven't even taught it to him yet. Such a basic thing, lol. We settled on a nose touch until I get my act together.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Kylie does nothing for ANYONE that isn't me. My *husband* asked her to sit, while he was standing there with a treat, she looked at him for a half second, turned around and WALKED TO ME and sat. IT's... really ridiculous.


If my husband asks him to do something when I'm nearby, he looks to me first. LOL

He also sandbagged the trainer one time. She wanted to demo how to shape a dog to put his feet on a step stool. So she went through this whole shaping thing until he did it, and it was a great demo. I never told her that he already knew how to do that and does it very well. He just went along with her and pretended like he had no idea what she wanted, but the speed at which she shaped it tells me he did know. I swear, he's either not very bright, or much smarter than I give him credit for.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Luna will generally do most 'simple' behaviours for other people (sit, paw, down, etc) but I find she doesn't do it as much for 'advanced' or more difficult ones. (back up, hand target, some copy cues, etc)

I don't know if it's because those behaviours are still 'new', or if there's something about the way the person asks for it that is different than what I do that throws her off. 

She has no qualms about working for other people though, lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly, Bug, and Jack will work for anyone. Thud won't but will work with my husband. 

Kylie's just a flat out 'no way' to everyone but me, regardless. I mean sometimes she'll sort of do it, if coming to me to execute commands he gave counts (this is particularly bad when he says 'leash' and she comes to me to hand me her leash instead of him) but it doesn't actually and mostly she's just like "Uh, no." She also won't PLAY with him. She'll sleep with him and hang out on his lap but she doesn't *do* anything with or for him. He's basically furniture.

I think she MIGHT do some stuff for our trainer, but it's never come up.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Luna will generally do most 'simple' behaviours for other people (sit, paw, down, etc) but I find she doesn't do it as much for 'advanced' or more difficult ones. (back up, hand target, some copy cues, etc)
> 
> I don't know if it's because those behaviours are still 'new', or if there's something about the way the person asks for it that is different than what I do that throws her off.
> 
> She has no qualms about working for other people though, lol.


Yeah, I think it's probably just that new or more complicated behaviors aren't as fluent or generalized yet, so they don't know what people are asking for. I probably give Watson too much credit by thinking he does it on purpose occasionally, but I swear he does once in a while


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Watson will work for anyone with food, unless they make him nervous for some reason, which is uncommon. He will only do things without an obvious reward for me. I think he trusts that I can go and get rewards, but he doesn't have that history with other people.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Squash will do anything for anyone, anywhere.

Toast is sometimes a little MOMMMYYYYY SAVE MEEEEE when he demos, it comes and goes in waves. Generally he will work as a demo dog, though, when he's not in stranger danger mode.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Okay, I should clarify that Molly will work with anyone when she hasn't, for whatever reason, decided at any given moment that other people are suspicious and to be treated accordingly. Saying it comes in waves with her is an understatement. She's either climbing them like trees in an attempt to stick her tongue down their throat or barking and backing away from them. What is stable? Not my dog.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I taught my dogs to High Five me, both sides. Stupid, stupid move. I was working signal exercise where you leave your dog standing while heeling and then go 30 feet and turn and signal the down...

I turned to signal the down, any my little whippet now waves, mirroring my signal... OOPS! But man, so cute!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I taught my dogs to High Five me, both sides. Stupid, stupid move. I was working signal exercise where you leave your dog standing while heeling and then go 30 feet and turn and signal the down...
> 
> I turned to signal the down, any my little whippet now waves, mirroring my signal... OOPS! But man, so cute!


Hahahahaha. Adorable!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Okay, I should clarify that Molly will work with anyone when she hasn't, for whatever reason, decided at any given moment that other people are suspicious and to be treated accordingly. Saying it comes in waves with her is an understatement. She's either climbing them like trees in an attempt to stick her tongue down their throat or barking and backing away from them. What is stable? Not my dog.


Yea, poor Toasties. There's so much angsty teenage mali conflict going on over here right now. He's slowly figuring it all out.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Yea, poor Toasties. There's so much angsty teenage mali conflict going on over here right now. He's slowly figuring it all out.


Yeah. Molly's sorting herself out and has gotten a lot better over the past couple of months but she's still really not sure what to do with herself sometimes. And she's not even a Mali! But man, her teen angst is on par with my human kids'! Fortunately I think hers will settle faster than theirs.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. Molly's sorting herself out and has gotten a lot better over the past couple of months but she's still really not sure what to do with herself sometimes. And she's not even a Mali! But man, her teen angst is on par with my human kids'! Fortunately I think hers will settle faster than theirs.


Yea there's something to be said for a teenage period that lasts months instead of years.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Watson's teenage period lasted years.

Though he didn't have any angst. He just had his own soundtrack playing in his head for his whole adolescence. I think I was the one with all of the angst over whether or not I was going to strangle him.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Lol I'm happy I dont have a teenage period to deal with. 

Yeah, I'm listening to everything you guys are saying but I'm just trying to take it easy and really only do whatever kind of training comes effortlessly. If it's endless downs, well, Porsche will be okay. I do down so much that it's like her default answer to anything and everything now, lmao. Especially if you just look at her and don't do/say anything - guaranteed she will down within a few seconds lol. 

For example just now I was trying to explain to her the concept of distance, i.e. sit-stay, then i take a few steps back, and give the down. For the first two reps she started walking towards me with the intention to lie down at my feet as usual, but on the third rep understood, went down in the same spot, and earned a bully stick. So like, it's not anything complicated or "drilling" that I'm doing. Currently, a "session" consists of 3-5 reps of one or two commands. Or, even more commonly, I have a large treat I want to give her anyways, so i'll ask her to do a command, or two-three commands in a row, and give her the treat. So it's like, yes I'm doing stuff, but in a low-pressure way. 

Her downs have gotten much nicer since I did those few sessions the other day selecting for pretty downs. 

I read that article on playing that someone (trainingjunkie?) posted earlier, and I completely agree with it. Porsche was feeling kind of goofy and affectionate when I came home at lunch, so I tried to do one of the actions that they said had 100% effectiveness rate - play bowing. Of course, luck being on my side, with the first play bow I hit my head pretty hard on the wooden handle of a couch, and that was the end of the "play" session lol. 

Porsche will hesitantly work for someone else if they have a treat lol. And even then, she'll only do a sit (her best command). She'll do everything for me and for my boyfriend though. Treats or otherwise.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dog training isn't really 'effortless' but it should be FUN! Endless anything is no good. 

Action oriented work will help the playing issue a lot.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And thinking more on this I don't mean to imply that training should be a _chore_ per say. It shouldn't. But it will take effort and thought and creativity and_ time_ to do well. 

I dunno I just know I'd burnt out too if I only did sit/down/stay/walk on a leash. lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think some of it's just that brain thing again. Obedience bores me to TEARS, but I absolutely love trick training. I don't know why. There is no reason for it. There's not much difference between the actual work or time on the part of the human, I just feel like I'm engaging my dog differently, and using a different part of my brain, for trick/agility training than I do the sit/down/stay/come stuff.

Or maybe the dog gets excited and that makes it more fun. I really don't know, but there's just something so inherently FUN in teaching my dog ridiculous tricks.

Either way, yeah. What Laurelin said.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I found with tricks it involved a lot more problem solving and learning about my dog vs basic obedience commands. Trying to figure out what kinds of tricks she could do, what she enjoyed, what she was good at, and thinking about different ways to work around problems that came up. 

There's also more flexibility in that if a particular trick isn't working for whatever reason, you can just drop it and try something different. Not as much pressure that your dog -needs- to know the command like a down or stay or what have you.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

When I transitioned from a more traditional training background to a more +R/shaping-based approach, I added 2 dogs to my home and chose to start them differently than I had started my other dogs. I taught the following tricks using only shaping before I tackled anything else:

Put hind feet in box.
Put front feet in box.
Get in box.
Bring me food bowl (shaped only)
Go to Mat, then Lay on Mat, then Stay on Mat.
Recalls off of mat with sends back TO mat.

Then we started training. None of this took very long, but all of it taught my dog and I how to learn together. The 3 box tricks were really hard to shape back to back because of the changing criteria between the 3 behaviors. My dogs would offer the behavior that paid last time (back feet in box) and would be frustrated that now they had to move on and try something different (front feet in box). However, it was worth sticking it out. By the time we were done, they would stay in the training game and keep trying. This made teaching all of the other skills very, very easy. It also improved my shaping skills. Plus, I didn't really care about any of the behaviors, so there wasn't much pressure.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That is basically how I start training too these days. I will pick an object and play some games with it. I also do spin both directions and nose touches to the hand at the beginning because I find them to be generally very motivating. And nose touches are great for re-positioning a dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Love positioning with nose touches. Also so thankful I taught 'back' and 'forward'. It's nice to be able to move her around when my hands are full. 

I don't think Luna really likes spin, haha. She'll only do it with a food lure (hand with no food is no-go 95% of the time). I know we just need to keep working on it, but seriously sometimes I feel like she's looking at me like "Seriously. That's stupid. Do I really need to do that stupid thing again?"


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

You guys are going to facepalm right now. Ready, set...

A trainer friend of mine is taking this online class right now, and I really, really want to join her. It comes highly recommended and looks like a lot of fun. The class... Heeling 101.

*facepalm*

Should I do it? I'm still kind of burned out but really itching to do it. It's very reasonably priced, and it's a working spot, i.e. videos and personalized feedback (most likely from my friend as well as from the class instructor). 

In other news, I finally took Mrs. Boats' advice and signed up for psychotherapy. Had my first session today and it looks like it'll be able to help me with a bunch of anxiety-related things. So yeah.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> You guys are going to facepalm right now. Ready, set...
> 
> A trainer friend of mine is taking this online class right now, and I really, really want to join her. It comes highly recommended and looks like a lot of fun. The class... Heeling 101.
> 
> ...


Do not take any class that requires you to send in video submissions. Seriously. Take my advice here. For one, it's stressful that there is a time crunch, and you feel like you have to progress and you have to submit a certain number of videos a week or you are a slacker and have wasted your money. 

And two, it is really stressful to video yourself. Your training will suck at first. It just will. You'll feel awful during the video, and then watch it back and say "what the heck was I doing there?" And then you won't want to submit it because you know it sucks, but you feel like you have to because otherwise you have wasted your money.

You are already anxious about training, and struggle to figure out what you should work on when. Don't do it. Try signing up for an online class in an auditing spot first and see if you can keep up with the work before you try a working spot. I've done a couple online classes in a working spot and it's stressful every time and I don't even have anxiety around training.



> In other news, I finally took Mrs. Boats' advice and signed up for psychotherapy. Had my first session today and it looks like it'll be able to help me with a bunch of anxiety-related things. So yeah.


That's awesome!! I hope it goes well! Remember that not every therapist is right for every patient, and there are different methods and schools of thought, so if it's not working out just find someone else.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Do not take any class that requires you to send in video submissions. Seriously. Take my advice here. For one, it's stressful that there is a time crunch, and you feel like you have to progress and you have to submit a certain number of videos a week or you are a slacker and have wasted your money.


As far as I understand this class is very "go at your own pace". You have access to the training "weeks" for 6 months, so you can do week 1, then a month break, then come back and do week 2 onwards. It's not a class with a set start and end date, just an overall time frame (6 months) and number of working weeks (12). So it would be fairly low pressure from that perspective? Also, given that it takes 3 months to teach heeling, I'm going to bet that it's pretty slow going on it's own and holds your hand. But I haven't actually seen the content so can't be sure. I might try to email her first and ask what the curriculum is. (God the web design is awful.)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Video classes are good in that you get feedback but also take a lot of time. I am doing one now and I swear outside of work I am spending 2-3 nights a week doing the exercises, reading lectures, or videoing or editing. I'd say maybe even 5-6 hours a week right now. Which is a LOT. I fully plan on taking a break after this round. It's a lot for me and I love training. It's useful. But a lot.

A lot of people drop out... get lost in the videos. And a lot depends on the instructor and how good they are about advice. Some are thorough and some aren't.

I've audited a few and those are a lot easier. Most places will give you the lectures for beyond the class time so it's easier to go at your own pace.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I've done the online class. That's where we got our NTD title. 
Only thing I had to pay for was the submission of my application for our certificate and then it came in the mail... $20 bucks. 
I rather enjoyed it, and it's SUPER 'at your own pace'. I've been enrolled in the next level since April and have done absolutely nothing in regards to actually earning the certificate as of yet... Heck at this rate I might not even actually DO anything until next year.. LOL but I don't have to pay anything until I'm ready to submit my application for the title.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> As far as I understand this class is very "go at your own pace". You have access to the training "weeks" for 6 months, so you can do week 1, then a month break, then come back and do week 2 onwards. It's not a class with a set start and end date, just an overall time frame (6 months) and number of working weeks (12). So it would be fairly low pressure from that perspective? Also, given that it takes 3 months to teach heeling, I'm going to bet that it's pretty slow going on it's own and holds your hand. But I haven't actually seen the content so can't be sure. I might try to email her first and ask what the curriculum is. (God the web design is awful.)


But it's still only a 12 week class? 

Every class I've ever done a working spot for was 6 weeks, but I have access to the material forever. It's still stressful. I only have access to that trainer and her feedback for a short period of time.

It also takes far longer than 3 months to teach heeling (for most people and most dogs). From some of your past posts, I get the feeling you will go into it feeling like you should have it all figured out by 12 weeks, and that will not be the case.

I still say don't do it. Really. Audit an online class and see how much you can work on stuff. The fact that you've made multiple posts about deal with training anxiety, and right now the only training you can do is when you don't realize you're training, this is not something you are ready for. Just my honest opinion.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> But it's still only a 12 week class?
> 
> Every class I've ever done a working spot for was 6 weeks, but I have access to the material forever. It's still stressful. I only have access to that trainer and her feedback for a short period of time.


Not quite. You have access to the trainer for the entire 6 months, but the course is divided into 12 chunks, released to you once per week. When you actually do the stuff during those 6 months is up to you.



> It also takes far longer than 3 months to teach heeling (for most people and most dogs). From some of your past posts, I get the feeling you will go into it feeling like you should have it all figured out by 12 weeks, and that will not be the case.


Lol very fair assessment. It's been 3 months and we still don't have down figured out, so I guess the expectation adjustment would be something I'd continuously be working on. 



> I still say don't do it. Really. Audit an online class and see how much you can work on stuff. The fact that you've made multiple posts about deal with training anxiety, and right now the only training you can do is when you don't realize you're training, this is not something you are ready for. Just my honest opinion.


Darn, why do you have to make so much sense?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Video classes are good in that you get feedback but also take a lot of time. I am doing one now and I swear outside of work I am spending m2-3 nights a week doing the exercises, reading lectures, or videoing or editing. I'd say maybe even 5-6 hours a week right now. Which is a LOT. I fully plan on taking a break after this round. It's a lot for me and I love training. It's useful. But a lot.
> 
> A lot of people drop out... get lost in the videos. And a lot depends on the instructor and how good they are about advice. Some are thorough and some aren't.
> 
> I've audited a few and those are a lot easier. Most places will give you the lectures for beyond the class time so it's easier to go at your own pace.


I'm doing a performance foundations class with Hazel right now in a working spot, and it's a lot. We can submit 3 videos a week, and I usually struggle to get 2. The other day I spent an hour before working taking a video and editing it down to 2 minutes. And that was a great session. I've recorded sessions and when I watch it back I don't think it's representative of our work or something I will get useful feedback on (since I may have already fixed that issue, or wanted to show something else). So even outside of training the stuff every day, I spend a couple hours taking and editing the videos and submitting them, and I still struggle to get my maximum 3 videos. 

Plus there is reading the material and understanding it. I'm in a foundations class and I've done this stuff with another dog, so I can kind of skim some stuff. In classes with completely new or novel material is was so much to read everything and watch the videos.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Are you sure? I would ask to clarify. To me it kind of sounds like the class is 12 weeks and the material goes away after 6 months.

The ones I've seen at various places have weekly assignments. Right now I do 2-3 videos a week and post. I get feedback and then I know what to work on next time. The lectures/material won't go away for a long time (over a year?). But you post videos every week the class is in session.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Are you sure? I would ask to clarify. To me it kind of sounds like the class is 12 weeks and the material goes away after 6 months.
> 
> The ones I've seen at various places have weekly assignments. Right now I do 2-3 videos a week and post. I get feedback and then I know what to work on next time. The lectures/material won't go away for a long time (over a year?). But you post videos every week the class is in session.


Yeah, this is how I read the website too. You get access to it for 6 months but the trainer is only watching your videos for 12 weeks.

In Fenzi classes you get access to lectures forever if you remain a student and enroll in at least one class per year. If you don't continue to enroll in classes you can pay $30 or something to keep access to your library. Otherwise you lose access after 1 year.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> Are you sure? I would ask to clarify. To me it kind of sounds like the class is 12 weeks and the material goes away after 6 months.
> 
> The ones I've seen at various places have weekly assignments. Right now I do 2-3 videos a week and post. I get feedback and then I know what to work on next time. The lectures/material won't go away for a long time (over a year?). But you post videos every week the class is in session.


Good point. I included that question in an email I just sent to the instructor. I could've easily misinterpreted that. 

Good points both of you. That does sound like a lot of time. I'm more used to just videoing however long the session runs and not editing anything. I hate video editing lol, it takes about forever.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah definitely figure out what the rules are. I've seen people in working spots drop out of every single online class I've taken. It's a pretty big commitment to video and edit multiple times a week (our videos have to be less than 2 minutes or around there). It also is eating up almost all my training time right now.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Yeah definitely figure out what the rules are. I've seen people in working spots drop out of every single online class I've taken. It's a pretty big commitment to video and edit multiple times a week (our videos have to be less than 2 minutes or around there). It also is eating up almost all my training time right now.


Oh yeah, there are always at least a couple people who drop out early.

I usually stick with it pretty well until the last two weeks and then I'm just tired and slow way down on videos. I keep training but I can't bring myself to video and edit everything.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yeah, if its 12 weeks back to back and the time investment is anything similar to what you guys are saying, there's just no chance I'm going to stick with it. If it's "any 12 weeks out of the next 6 months" kind of deal, I have a better chance. 

But yeah, as soon as I have to force myself, it's game over.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I've been reading along here, but want to say

This


> In other news, I finally took Mrs. Boats' advice and signed up for psychotherapy. Had my first session today and it looks like it'll be able to help me with a bunch of anxiety-related things. So yeah.


 is awesome! I do hope the therapist is a good fit and you see progress!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

cookieface said:


> I've been reading along here, but want to say
> 
> This is awesome! I do hope the therapist is a good fit and you see progress!


I hope so too. I'm pretty excited after today's session.  
(Also I just love the process of someone picking my brain. Is that weird? lol!)


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So I checked with the trainer and it is indeed any 12 weeks out of a 6 month period. You have access to the trainer for the whole 6 months. 

Still tempted.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So i made up a game of sorts... well its fun for me at least lol. Shes in heat, and as such, ridiculously cuddly and wants pets like 24/7. So when she asks for pets I'll hide my hands behind my back then whip one out and she'll usually touch it - then i make a big fuss and rub her for a few seconds. Then i'll stop and run away, before turning around and offering another hand for a touch - she'll chase me and then do the touch and i'll pet her some more. Usually the "game" ends when she's had enough of rubbing for the moment and walks away in the middle of the rub.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Elrohwen, your tip about whipping hand out from behind your back was a godsend.  We have movement with touch! I'm at the part now where she understands what the movement means and she'll touch both hands in any fairly easy position around her. If she loses engagement I just run away and then ask her to touch again and then she's up for it again. Right now she'll work for rubs (because heat!) and for kibble cause I've cut out any treats for the moment. I'm not sure she's a big fan of the game, I see lots of hesitation and thinking instead of the happy go lucky demeanour all the other dogs show with this trick, but she's understood the basic premise. I even had her do a few spins following that hand.  I'm trying to add a verbal to it now. as well as just generally continue practicing it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

This is just sort of on the topic of self-applied pressure and training anxiety/burnout but.

I've realized in the past few days I feel like I *have* to do (as in compete) in a sport with Molly, or I'm failing majorly somewhere. I do not for the life of me know why my brain has decided to do this to me, but it's kind of irritating. I've never felt like I was a failure of a dog owner because I wasn't competing in something in my life. I'm not competitive. I've only two two trials in anything EVER. 

WTH?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Welcome to our brains are weird and complicated things and sometimes they're really hard to control. :\


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yep. It's weird too that I cared very little about her performance of anything while reactivity was bad but now that that's controlled my expectations are ABRUPTLY through the roof. Then again, now that I've noticed I can probably get myself over it. Probably. Therapy did me good


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

You can do it! 

I have through the roof expectations all the time. So much that it's just not even something I bother with trying to work with anymore. My feeling of accomplishment has atrophied from a good decade of nonuse. lol.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

A quick update and a question...

I'm doing a bit better although not doing any structured training at all anymore. She is sorely missing interaction with other dogs because this heat of hers just will. not. end. We met a female labradoodle on a walk yesterday and while usually I don't let her meet other dogs on leash, this time I did (obviously with mutual agreement from the other owner) and she was so incredibly playful! 

I definitely managed to teach her "touch", so far it's her favourite command lol. To the point where walking from A to B has become problematic because she's always in front, trying to touch a palm with her nose. I pretty much have to walk with my hands behind my back, or deliberately have a hand out for her to touch (away from my body). She's not... super excited, just mildly excited and in the way a whole lot more lol. Any tips for dealing with this, so I can maybe walk normally around my house again? 

On the other hand, I don't need a lure anymore lol. Tried doing some little spin training just by following the hand around. Also did some "around me" playing around.

Also, i'm finding confusion between "stay" which is open palm in front of her face briefly, and "touch", which is... also open palm somewhere in her vicinity. Tried to give her a "stay" the other day and she jumped up and touched my hand. It was cute but still... lol. 

She's also so so so plushy due to her heat, like omg. She doesn't want to lie down touching you, but she just wants to be in your face all the time with your hands petting her pretty much 24/7. It's adorable but also exhausting. We even had to crate her yesterday during dinner because it got pretty difficult to eat dinner with a dog head between your plate and your face, trying to lick your hand as it brings the spoonful of soup to your mouth... She didn't want the food, just wanted the pets.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

She will figure it out with time when you only reward touching during times you've asked for it. It might also help to teach her to touch other objects and in generalizing she may realize that it's a specific action and requires a specific cue.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> She will figure it out with time when you only reward touching during times you've asked for it. It might also help to teach her to touch other objects and in generalizing she may realize that it's a specific action and requires a specific cue.


Yea this. If you're really concerned you could work on fading out the hand signal for stay, but IMO I wouldn't really worry about it.

On the up side, yay! She is now offering behaviours!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> She will figure it out with time when you only reward touching during times you've asked for it. It might also help to teach her to touch other objects and in generalizing she may realize that it's a specific action and requires a specific cue.


Does that not then cause confusion/issues if you try to use "touch" to position the dog like I see everyone doing? Cause then every command (like say spin for example) begins with giving the command touch, which just results in a chained command but always involving touch?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Does that not then cause confusion/issues if you try to use "touch" to position the dog like I see everyone doing? Cause then every command (like say spin for example) begins with giving the command touch, which just results in a chained command but always involving touch?


I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't know anyone who uses the touch command before every other command. I ask my dog to touch, but I also ask for spins and other behaviors not at all related to touch. I can also ask him to touch an object, like pushing a cabinet door shut, and he can do that. Verbal cue is the same, but my hand cue is different because I don't have my hand out when I'm asking him to touch another object.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. I don't know anyone who uses the touch command before every other command. I ask my dog to touch, but I also ask for spins and other behaviors not at all related to touch. I can also ask him to touch an object, like pushing a cabinet door shut, and he can do that. Verbal cue is the same, but my hand cue is different because I don't have my hand out when I'm asking him to touch another object.


I mean in terms of teaching a command. Or positioning a dog (for heel position for example). I often see it in videos of dogs in OB competitions or just trainers training. 
With teaching, like for example if I'm teaching spin, I have her follow my hand around as the "lure" instead of a treat, and then I don't let her touch it and reward for completing the spin. Or should I be using the treat lure to avoid confusion?

Edit: like in this video at 6:40-6:45
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hzs2Ebf-W4


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

No. You don't need to always have a treat in your hand. My dogs will follow a foodless lure. You DO need to make sure you have a verbal for touch and if she does it without being asked for it, you don't reward it now that she's got it and likes it. Sort of like teaching speak, or a rebound, or leg weaves, or even sit. Just because you taught the dog to sit doesn't mean every time he sits down you feed him.

*ETA:* Or that, way back when, Molly was learning leg weaves, I would reward her for randomly diving between my legs. Nope, sometimes I'm just walking with you, and you only get a reward when I ask for that behavior. They figure it out, even if it looks similar.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

If you use a food lure you want to fade it quickly. So while teaching sit I will lure the dog with the treat for a bit, then move the treat to my other hand and just have him follow my hand. So my hand is luring the position, yes, but the "lure" (the treat) is now gone. But this sequence isn't related to the touch cue at all. Teaching touch will teach a dog to want to follow your hand, but they aren't the same thing.

People use "touch" in OB competition because most dogs love it and it's a fun way to play and interact between exercises, and build some energy. I use it in heel position, but it's not how I set my dog up. He is targeting my hand and using it as a cue to set up, but I'm not telling him "touch" and having him touch my palm when I'm setting him up in heel. I might then put my hand out and ask him to touch as a separate thing though.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I have used touch to position for heeling, but I get her in position with touch and -then- we do heeling, the touch isn't part of the heeling cue, if that makes sense.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So basically targeting the hand and touching the hand should be treated as two different behaviours? I.e. teach impulse control via just watching and then touch to the hand?
I'm just thinking about how to make this less confusing lol, cause right now it's confusing even me lmao.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You don't need to ask for her to use impulse control for it. In fact, no, keep her excited about it, because that's something you struggle with. You just literally need to put touch on a verbal cue and then treat her touching her nose to your hand without asking for the touch with a verbal as irrelevant - because it is. If she sits down when you're training and you didn't ask for a sit, what do you do? 

Trust me, it's not that confusing for the dog. You're just overthinking it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I should clarify, I don't use touch as a method of luring a behaviour, which I think is what you mean?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I.e. teach impulse control via just watching and then touch to the hand?


I don't know what you mean by this. There should be no teaching impulse control as part of this behavior  You want to get her excited and offering stuff, not feeling like she has to have impulse control every minute.

But yeah, teaching the "touch" cue is one behavior. Having a dog follow your hand where there is no food in it is another, where you initially have food while you do the luring behavior, and then you remove the food and make the same hand motion. This is how basic lure training works and you do do it whether or not you ever teach "touch". But "touch" is a separate cue and the food will never be in the hand that she is expected to touch.

Touch is a behavior. Everything else you're talking about is just how training with a lure works. You're over thinking.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

And even if you ARE luring with a hand without food (I do most of the time), you're... not asking for touch. If she's confused and trying to touch instead of follow your hand in an exercise, you need to go back and put food in your hand so she follows it instead of pokes it. She will eventually figure out when to follow and when to poke (and the poke comes after you say 'touch')


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> You don't need to ask for her to use impulse control for it. In fact, no, keep her excited about it, because that's something you struggle with. You just literally need to put touch on a verbal cue and then treat her touching her nose to your hand without asking for the touch with a verbal as irrelevant - because it is. If she sits down when you're training and you didn't ask for a sit, what do you do?


Yes! If you start asking for impulse control as a separate thing, you are going to confuse her. She's not going to understand why sometimes she's rewarded specifically for not touching, and other times she is. Just don't reward touches you didn't ask for and they will fade away. But keep her excitement!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea, teaching spin is just 'follow this yummy treat I have here', not trying to execute the touch command while you move your hand away. 

When I say I use it for positioning I mean "I need you to be in this location facing this direction" so I ask for touches to get the desired position, then do the thing I was going to do from there.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Lol overthinking, aren't I always? 

I think I overthink because it allows me to mentally/emotionally partake in an activity I find enjoyable, without the perfectionism pressure that comes with actually doing it. Hmm. 

So basically stop rewarding for executions of the command that I haven't asked for, but it's okay to use the hand as the lure during teaching new exercises/positioning the dog? It just shouldn't be the command "touch". 

I'm pretty sure she knows the verbal for it by now. When I position my hand out of view and say "touch", she starts looking around until she spots it and goes to touch it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> So basically stop rewarding for executions of the command that I haven't asked for, but it's okay to use the hand as the lure during teaching new exercises/positioning the dog? It just shouldn't be the command "touch".


Yes, this exactly.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes. It's fine to use your hand to move her around/have her follow your hand. You should probably use food until she gets 'lure saavy' for the early stages of new behaviors, but that's just opinion. Otherwise, you've got it. Reward when you ask for it, and when you don't, don't.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Yes. It's fine to use your hand to move her around/have her follow your hand. You should probably use food until she gets 'lure saavy' for the early stages of new behaviors, but that's just opinion. Otherwise, you've got it. Reward when you ask for it, and when you don't, don't.


Yeah, don't be so quick to drop the food if she doesn't get it. I start luring any new behavior with food, even for my dog who understands following my hand. It's just much easier and lower stress on him because following the food is easy. Then I just ditch the food as quickly as I can. I think it's a lot of pressure for most dogs to expect the dog to follow just your hand lure for a new behavior, and you'll both end up frustrated.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, don't be so quick to drop the food if she doesn't get it. I start luring any new behavior with food, even for my dog who understands following my hand. It's just much easier and lower stress on him because following the food is easy. Then I just ditch the food as quickly as I can. I think it's a lot of pressure for most dogs to expect the dog to follow just your hand lure for a new behavior, and you'll both end up frustrated.


Yea, we had to do a lot of work with food on spin because Luna just straight up would -not- lure it if my hand was empty, even if she could never see the food. I've had more success with a moving spin (spinning beside me while we walk)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I've trained a few very, very simple behaviors to Molly and Kylie by just following my hand, but mostly I just don't see the benefit in bothering. It makes things harder for no good reason. In my case I did it to see if I could, after we had quite a bit of training history behind us. I get bored, sometimes and my training gets odd. Molly thinks touching the back of my hand makes me go "BEEP" right now, you know? "Hm, I wonder...." is sometimes my primary driving thought in dog training.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

CptJack said:


> I've trained a few very, very simple behaviors to Molly and Kylie by just following my hand, but mostly I just don't see the benefit in bothering. It makes things harder for no good reason. In my case I did it to see if I could, after we had quite a bit of training history behind us. I get bored, sometimes and my training gets odd. Molly thinks touching the back of my hand makes me go "BEEP" right now, you know? "Hm, I wonder...." is sometimes my primary driving thought in dog training.


Mostly I've been using the foodless hand lure because it saves me from the mental leap of having to go get treats i.e. "this is officially training right now, you better bring it, pressure up to 100%", which mostly results in me just not training in the first place lol. The foodless hand lure lets me bypass that mental anxiety of starting and allows training to start in the middle of walking to the washroom, for example. Especially since she is more than happy right now to receive her rewards in the form of rubbing and pets, so I don't need to get treats at all, allowing training to be more freeform. 

I mean, for most people the act of getting treats is nothing, but for me its enough of an obstacle that I've been more than happy to avoid doing it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

You may find that you lose a lot of enthusiasm and she starts blowing you off if you don't reinforce with treats any more. There aren't many dogs in the world who will do all work for petting and praise. She may be one of them, or she may be humoring you for now, but if you're only going to offer the low value secondary reinforcer of praise I think you'll find that her enthusiasm will start to wane. The dog gets to decide what it finds reinforcing.

It's one thing to ask a dog to perform known cues without treats, and I do it all the time, but I don't really expect any enthusiasm and it's not training. It's just telling my dog to sit and knowing that he will, because he's been working on sit for 2 years. But I would never ask him to learn new behaviors and do real training without some sort of primary reinforcer available for his efforts at some point.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> You may find that you lose a lot of enthusiasm and she starts blowing you off. There aren't many dogs in the world who will do all work for petting and praise. She may be one of them, or she may be humoring you for now, but if you're only going to offer the low value secondary reinforcer of praise I think you'll find that her enthusiasm will start to wane.
> 
> The dog gets to decide what it finds reinforcing.


I'd agree with that, but she's in heat right now and being extra kind of strange and I've seen dogs who want touched so badly in heat they'd walk through fire. 

Still might want to consider stuffing your pockets with something or stashing some dog treats around where you spend time for easy access, though, because she WILL get out of heat relatively soon and, yeah, dog decides what they like.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I'd agree with that, but she's in heat right now and being extra kind of strange and I've seen dogs who want touched so badly in heat they'd walk through fire.


Yeah, that's true. For her right not that might be very high value reinforcement.

I just meant not to get into the mode of never using treats at all, because at some point the dog is going to say "What the heck?" and decide to do something else. At least once distraction or difficulty is increased. And it won't create a dog who is super excited to work


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Trying hard to follow the bouncing ball here .

But, if you use foot /body cues (rather than hand cues) for setting the dog up in heel position wouldn't that alleviate some confusion ? That way you can reserve hand touches for ... just hand touches.

ie: stand with left hand resting at waist area > place left foot AHEAD of right foot by 10 - 12" or so > dog comes into position at left foot and sits > then right foot comes up and is placed even with left foot + dog, ... and > "READY".

I guess what I'm generally suggesting is, teach your dog to find heel position without using your hands ???


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, that's true. For her right not that might be very high value reinforcement.
> 
> I just meant not to get into the mode of never using treats at all, because at some point the dog is going to say "What the heck?" and decide to do something else. At least once distraction or difficulty is increased. And it won't create a dog who is super excited to work


Yep, pretty much only enjoying it right now because she's in heat and being like OMG PLEASE TOUCH MEEEEEE. Literally she flags if she anticipates a touch. She'd probably be more excited for a piece of meat than touch, but since she's on a kibble-only diet at the moment, touch definitely > kibble lol. But both things will end, her heat will end (hopefully soon, omg), and i'll be giving her things other than kibble hopefully soon too.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> Trying hard to follow the bouncing ball here .
> 
> But, if you use foot /body cues (rather than hand cues) for setting the dog up in heel position wouldn't that alleviate some confusion ? That way you can reserve hand touches for ... just hand touches.
> 
> ...


Whee, bouncing ball! 

I wasn't really talking about heeling only, more like using it as an example of when you might want to use a hand lure to generally move/position your dog somehow. I.e. get away from the door so I can open it, move out of my way, look this way so your mad stare at rats is broken, move that way so you're lying on your part of the couch and not all up in cat's space, etc etc etc.

And also specifically teaching new behaviours. It just seems like a very convenient tool to use.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Alla said:


> I mean, for most people the act of getting treats is nothing, but for me its enough of an obstacle that I've been more than happy to avoid doing it.


Can you just keep a handful of treats in your pocket all the time?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

sassafras said:


> Can you just keep a handful of treats in your pocket all the time?


I guess I could dedicate a specific sweatshirt or something for having treats in the pockets of. I dont usually wear anything with pockets.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Or stash treats around the house. When Watson was small I kept little cups with kibble or another shelf stable treat in various rooms around the house.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

What makes talking about this so much harder is that my internal reactions are very different when I’m considering doing something vs when I’m actually doing it. Sitting at home on the couch (or at work at my computer as right now) and considering going to get treats and doing a training session is yucky levels of pressure and anxiety and i’m not gonna do it. 

Getting treats out of a cupboard as I’m walking by it on my way to the kitchen is nothing. If I preplan it (i.e. next time i go to the kitchen I get treats), no dice. If the thought occurs to me in the moment - no problem.

Having been inspired by the point about having treats on me constantly, when I went home at lunch to walk the dog, I decided to just get my training pouch, fill it with kibble, at take it with me on the walk as a desensitization exercise (hey look Alla, you can carry treats and not train! no pressure!). Naturally, as soon as the treats were on me, I spent a good chunk of the walk training anyways lol. No anxiety either. We did a bunch of come’s, a few waits, and a heel or two. Spent some time 180ing when she started pulling towards a dog that was walking slowly off leash in front of us. It’s a cardigan corgi friend of hers, so I didn’t let her approach him until she would do so without pulling, which she eventually figured out. 

Then did a few touches and spin practices and rat work when I got back in the house, since I already had treats on me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Maybe think of it less as "training" and more as "reinforcing good behavior". Lots of the stuff you're mentioning isn't really training, so much as rewarding her for checking in, or rewarding her for waiting at the door, or not pulling on the leash. You're just telling her that she's made a good choice and she gets a treat for that. Maybe that is a way to think about it with less pressure? She's a good dog who is generally well behaved, so you don't have to "train" anything. Just watch for her making good choices and then let her know she's made a good choice.

I always have treats available, whether it's on walks, potty breaks, or hanging out around the house. I haven't actually "trained" Watson for more than 10min in the past week, or the puppy for more than 5min a day. I just reinforce stuff that is good every once and a while.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Maybe think of it less as "training" and more as "reinforcing good behavior". Lots of the stuff you're mentioning isn't really training, so much as rewarding her for checking in, or rewarding her for waiting at the door, or not pulling on the leash. You're just telling her that she's made a good choice and she gets a treat for that. Maybe that is a way to think about it with less pressure? She's a good dog who is generally well behaved, so you don't have to "train" anything. Just watch for her making good choices and then let her know she's made a good choice.
> 
> I always have treats available, whether it's on walks, potty breaks, or hanging out around the house. I haven't actually "trained" Watson for more than 10min in the past week, or the puppy for more than 5min a day. I just reinforce stuff that is good every once and a while.


Yes, I do this a lot with Luna as well. I always have treats on me and just reinforce good behaviour when the opportunity arises (or use it to distract if need be). Dog is reacting in class? Oh what a good girl for not barking back! Kids yelling and playing basket ball in the street? Oh yes! So smart of you for thinking that's so boring! Mother pushing a stroller that we need to pass without bothering? Oh here, smell this yummy treat right at your nose and totally forget about that mildly interesting stroller!

I very rarely do specific set up 'training time' where I specifically work on a thing for more than 5-10mins at a time. (and usually less than 5)

I just shove a Ziploc bag of treats in my purse or in a sweater/jacket pocket whenever we go out.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Or stash treats around the house. When Watson was small I kept little cups with kibble or another shelf stable treat in various rooms around the house.


this is what I do right now! I have stashes the streets all over our house lol.

you don't have to train you know, you can just manage and redirect until this heat passes, if that's what you believe is messing with her mind. he can also cause digestive upset, can it not?


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I'm not sure if you've explained it.... or if this is overstepping.... but can I ask *why* it causes you such terrible anxiety to do training or simple reinforcement exercises? I really, really feel that training should be fun and reinforcement should be mindless... but you seem to really get miffed about it and it's difficult to understand (for me). 

Like, part of me feels bad for you because it just seems to cause you so much stress


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

She's in therapy ;-) Anxiety in general does strange things to your head, and turns everything into 'perfect or bust'. I had similar issues, meds and therapy helped but it takes time.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> She's in therapy ;-) Anxiety in general does strange things to your head, and turns everything into 'perfect or bust'. I had similar issues, meds and therapy helped but it takes time.


I have anxiety myself as well as depression and general mood cycles... so I know it does strange things to your head. I just wondered if there's some specific reason why it's being triggered during training sessions.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> this is what I do right now! I have stashes the streets all over our house lol.
> 
> you don't have to train you know, you can just manage and redirect until this heat passes, if that's what you believe is messing with her mind. he can also cause digestive upset, can it not?


It's pretty hard given our layout of the house, actually. We don't have much in the way of shelving (like, we dont have a single shelf in the house lol, although we've been talking about giving the cat more vertical explore space for ages), and leaving treats on surfaces like tables is just asking for her to countersurf lol. She's really good with not stealing food, so I don't really want to ruin that by upping the temptation.

I have found it to be good practice for me to take a training pouch on walks just as part of the "get up", like grabbing poop bags. I don't have to use it, but if I happen to want/need to give her a command, I have the reinforcement already, which makes it easier. 



BostonBullMama said:


> I'm not sure if you've explained it.... or if this is overstepping.... but can I ask *why* it causes you such terrible anxiety to do training or simple reinforcement exercises? I really, really feel that training should be fun and reinforcement should be mindless... but you seem to really get miffed about it and it's difficult to understand (for me).
> 
> Like, part of me feels bad for you because it just seems to cause you so much stress


I'm still not quite clear on why exactly it happens (part of what I'm exploring with my therapist), but I know it has roots in my putting too much unconscious pressure on myself to be perfect - with timing, with reactions, with commands, with following through, with being clear, with doing right by the animal I'm working with. 

It's much, much worse with horses. It never used to be like this until I had the opportunity to do clicker training with a horse for about 4 months. The lead up to that was 6 years of researching, watching, and planning - so by the time I started working with a live horse my expectations were so high that the pressure just mounted. I made many mistakes, as expected, but overall I was working with a very forgiving and "great for a beginner" horse, and we made very good progress on our own time - but after years of planning and living vicariously through montaged videos of other peoples' best moments, nothing was good enough, and I had no one who could give me any kind of direction in the moment. So the pressure to perform, to be engaging and interesting for the horse, got higher and higher the more he realized that training was fun and wanted to train more and more. I always worked with him out in the field, in the herd where he lived, with all the distractions of bales of hay, friends, and grassy fields. I started getting really good engagement from him, where he refused to go back to the hay bale or the grass (instead wanting to get the exact same hay, in tiny portions, from me, but only for doing tricks. free food was rejected.). It built the pressure of not losing that engagement that I worked so hard to get, of keeping the sessions interesting. The sessions got longer and longer (we were up to 45 minutes by the time I left), and still he wanted more, and I expected even more of myself.

The anxiety reached levels where I would stare into a wall for a whole day, unable to function. So I had no choice but to quit, thinking maybe time away from horses would help fix this. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case. Since then (this was... 2 years ago), I've stopped and started working with various horses at various barns, everything from traditional riding lessons to part-boarding to pure on-the-ground clicker training, but I'm so flaky that I would leave the newest barn after 2-3 sessions, feeling unfulfilled and unable to deal with the anxiety. 

As time went on, each round of "new barn, new horse, let's try again, can't do it, quit" would get shorter and shorter. So, this training pressure build up has carried over to dogs, because the activity (clicker training with an animal) is the same. As you can see, it's much tamer with dogs - I'm still able to train, the anxiety isn't reaching non-functioning levels. I freak out and "leave" (burn out) if I force myself too much, but on the whole, I'm capable of doing it.

This begs the question of why do I do this to myself in the first place? It sounds so simple, just don't train if it causes you this much pain. It's not like Porsche needs it, I didn't get a puppy. 
But I enjoy it. I love the process. I'm drawn back to it, time and time again, as soon as the anxiety lets up just a tiny bit. 

I'm pretty sure if the anxiety wasn't part of the equation, I'd be one of those people who either works as a trainer, or just finds excuses to train all day, every day. Or rare times when I find myself training in the moment, without preplanning, skipping the anticipation anxiety, I end up training in short bursts for half of every available hour. Until I catch up with myself and the anxiety rears it's head again. A good example is when I've had a glass of wine and I'm feeling rather tipsy and am able to bypass the usual triggers.

So yeah... Does that kind of explain it?


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Yea, I can totally see how things would have built up to this point. Thank you for taking the time to answer my question  I feel like I really have a better understanding of where you're coming from with this now.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I mean, if all my training experiences could be like today's lunch, that would be amazing. 

I took my treat pouch with me on the walk, and was king of feeling pressured so I told myself I'm not allowed to give any commands unless absolutely necessary, which removed the pressure, and resulted in me doing a bunch of wait's and come's lol. Then when I got home, I was going to take the pouch off but then I'm like "no, get used to wearing it around the house. don't do anything, just wear it. you can take it off when you leave to go back to work". After briefly checking on the rats and the cat and giving Porsche a bit of kibble in her bowl (trying to add a formal lunch feeding to see what is messing with her poops), i found myself training, because of course I would. 

First I tried to get her to touch a target, which she was completely uninterested in. Kept leaving to go back to her food bowl (why work for kibble when you can eat it out of your bowl?), so I had to keep running away to get her attention. Tried to do some touches, again without much enthusiasm. Then I tried working on spin again, but she must have still been hot after the walk, because after two half-hearted lured spins, she laid down and then flopped on her side (we have cool tiles all over the first floor). I'm like "oooh, let's try to work on roll over!". So we started roll over. I'd ask her to get up, then down, then do a weird combination of lure and gentle pressure to get her to go on her side, and then lots of rubs and some kibble in the on-the-side position. We did this about 3-4 times I think, each time getting easier as she understood more and more what I wanted (and she wanted to do it anyways). After the 4th time or so I noticed her brain overheating, she gets this look of intense thinking and a super serious "i'm not sure about this.." face, so I praised her a lot, ended it there and went to work. 

I mean, how awesome is that? No anxiety, just pure enjoyment in communicating with another animal, trying to make yourself understood, seeing progress and understanding. It's the best. Wish it was always like this. Just like, being able to say "ooh, let's try this!" and try it, instead of immediately feeling a rush of anxiety and running away. All in all, between the walk and the post-walk, I spent easily half of the hour lunch "training" - giving commands and rewarding for them.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm going to try to say this as kindly as possible, but from what you described it didn't sound like a very fun training session from Porsche's point of view. First, it's very stressful for a dog to be called away from a meal. If you give her food in her bowl, just let her eat it in peace and then do what you want to do after. Or hand feed during training first and then give her the rest of the bowl as a reward after. Constantly calling a dog away from their food dish can great RG behaviors, or just a lot of stress around meal times and eating.

Second, it sounds like she wasn't engaged with you during the session. In a case like that, I would walk away from a training session. There's no use in begging your dog to interact with you, because you set the precedent and the dog doesn't learn to ask for work and keep up their end of the deal. I often use easy well known tricks to assess my dog's engagement level. If he won't do tricks, we quit. If he will do tricks enthusiastically, but won't heel or something, then I have something to work with and need to figure out why heeling is stressing him out in that moment, but at least I know he's engaged and willing to interact with me. It's a powerful communication method for both you and the dog.

Third, I know it's really tempting to do, because I do it too all the time, but don't train until she is looking uncomfortable and done with the exercise. Stop while she's still having fun and is engaged. If you push her until she's done, she will remember that training=tired and uncomfortable, and she won't be excited to work next time. I know that it's not always easy to predict when they will suddenly go from having fun to being done, just something to keep in mind for future sessions.

I know you had a good time training, and I don't want to burst your bubble, it's great that you're able to work with her without as much anxiety and I think it's a great idea to just carry treats around the house wherever you go. I just wanted to point a few things out that will make it even more enjoyable for Porsche.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I'm going to try to say this as kindly as possible, but from what you described it didn't sound like a very fun training session from Porsche's point of view. First, it's very stressful for a dog to be called away from a meal. If you give her food in her bowl, just let her eat it in peace and then do what you want to do after. Or hand feed during training first and then give her the rest of the bowl as a reward after. Constantly calling a dog away from their food dish can great RG behaviors, or just a lot of stress around meal times and eating.
> 
> Second, it sounds like she wasn't engaged with you during the session. In a case like that, I would walk away from a training session. There's no use in begging your dog to interact with you, because you set the precedent and the dog doesn't learn to ask for work and keep up their end of the deal. I often use easy well known tricks to assess my dog's engagement level. If he won't do tricks, we quit. If he will do tricks enthusiastically, but won't heel or something, then I have something to work with and need to figure out why heeling is stressing him out in that moment, but at least I know he's engaged and willing to interact with me. It's a powerful communication method for both you and the dog.
> 
> ...


...good point. 

well, with the food thing, when i gave her the food in her bowl, she didn't touch it (this is normal), but instead followed me around the house as I did other stuff. So i started training, figuring she's not particularly interested in food. then when she would leave to go to her bowl, i didn't actually "call" her away? like i never said her name or a command or anything. just went to another part of the house slightly faster than normal, albeit with the intention to get her attention. Still bad?

Most of her feedings aren't actually "sit down and eat". I mean, unless I literally stand next to her while she eats. If I'm moving around or doing anything at all, she'll come look, go back to eating, come look, go back to eating. Always been that way. If i really need her to finish her meal like right now, I'll stand next to her while she eats without moving. 

Yeah, you're right, i need to pay more attention to how she's feeling during the training session. I guess I was just so excited that I, for once, wasn't experiencing mental issues that I lost sight of how she felt about it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> ...good point.
> 
> well, with the food thing, when i gave her the food in her bowl, she didn't touch it (this is normal), but instead followed me around the house as I did other stuff. So i started training, figuring she's not particularly interested in food. then when she would leave to go to her bowl, i didn't actually "call" her away? like i never said her name or a command or anything. just went to another part of the house slightly faster than normal, albeit with the intention to get her attention. Still bad?
> 
> ...


Personally, and this is just me, you can feed however you want, I would put food down for 10-20 minutes (time it) and then pick it up if she doesn't eat. I don't like dogs who need to be encouraged to eat, and I don't want to stand near the bowl so they can finish. It's up to you if you care though. If she wasn't interested in it and I wanted to train, I would have picked up the bowl and used what was in it for training instead of leaving it down.

Dogs can get really stressed about meals. For example, Watson has never been stressed about food and loves to eat. But since the puppy, there has been more confusion around meal times. He's not sure if she will rush him while he eats and try to take his food (she won't because I won't let her, but he doesn't know that yet). If I put her food down and have to bring her over (because she's not super into food yet) I have to tell him to leave her food and he gets really stressed by it. A few times he wouldn't eat his own meal and kept following me around, which is so not like him. Dogs can be weird about this sort of thing. I would make meal times for Porsche very structured and do them the same every day. Make food, put bowl down, release her to eat, leave the room, then pick it back up in 10-20 min and try it for her next meal. Let her figure out that it will be the same every day, and that if she wants to eat that's her time to eat.

I'm also guilty of trying to push my dog into a training session he didn't want to do, or going past the point where he's engaged or comfortable. It's just something to watch for and make sure you don't repeat over and over. I start out training sessions with play basically, either with toys or personal play (which can be easy tricks the dog loves) to see where they are at. If the dog can't do those things, I need to reduce distractions (maybe change locations), or just decide it's not going to happen that day.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Personally, and this is just me, you can feed however you want, I would put food down for 10-20 minutes (time it) and then pick it up if she doesn't eat. I don't like dogs who need to be encouraged to eat, and I don't want to stand near the bowl so they can finish. It's up to you if you care though. If she wasn't interested in it and I wanted to train, I would have picked up the bowl and used what was in it for training instead of leaving it down.
> 
> Dogs can get really stressed about meals. For example, Watson has never been stressed about food and loves to eat. But since the puppy, there has been more confusion around meal times. He's not sure if she will rush him while he eats and try to take his food (she won't because I won't let her, but he doesn't know that yet). If I put her food down and have to bring her over (because she's not super into food yet) I have to tell him to leave her food and he gets really stressed by it. A few times he wouldn't eat his own meal and kept following me around, which is so not like him. Dogs can be weird about this sort of thing. I would make meal times for Porsche very structured and do them the same every day. Make food, put bowl down, release her to eat, leave the room, then pick it back up in 10-20 min and try it for her next meal. Let her figure out that it will be the same every day, and that if she wants to eat that's her time to eat.
> 
> I'm also guilty of trying to push my dog into a training session he didn't want to do, or going past the point where he's engaged or comfortable. It's just something to watch for and make sure you don't repeat over and over. I start out training sessions with play basically, either with toys or personal play (which can be easy tricks the dog loves) to see where they are at. If the dog can't do those things, I need to reduce distractions (maybe change locations), or just decide it's not going to happen that day.


She does finish all her food within that timeframe. She finishes it within about 5 minutes usually. She's just never (okay, raaaarely) at her bowl from start to finish. Our routine is fairly consistent I think, basically exactly as you described, with me being (mostly) in the kitchen preparing my lunch in the morning and preparing dinner in the evening while she eats next to it. If I leave the kitchen area she'll come see what i'm doing.

I guess I just didn't pick up her food (or wait to give it to her until just before I was leaving) is because I wasn't planning on training. I just ended up training. And also, with horses, when you're training via free choice, it is good to have other food-based distractions in the area. And the protocol for when they leave to go eat their free food (meaning they're bored with you) is to do something to make yourself interesting again, and get their attention away from their free food and back on you. It's a constant feedback-test of engagement. They always have something tasty to go back to, so if you're not on the ball, well, you'll know immediately. 

So my immediate thought was in that direction. I didn't think far enough to realize the difference between X meals per day of a predator vs near-constant state of eating for a herbivore.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, there's a big difference between predator and prey. I have hay out for my bunnies 24/7, and I can do some clicker training with them and work around the hay just fine. It's always there and they don't really care.

If I put any food down on the floor and asked Watson to work with me, it would be difficult and potentially stressful for him. I have had to work up to that and the food on the floor is the distraction and the proofing I've added because he's at the point where he can do that. And I would still never call him away from a bowl of food I've told him he can have, unless there was some emergency.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So we just got attacked.

Both dogs were on leash, in heel position, except unfortunately Porsche was on the side of me closest to the other dog with his person. We were in a narrow chute with high fences along both sides and not too much room to pass each other, but it would've been fine, except the other girl didn't have enough strength to hold her dog (looked like a lab/shepherd mix around same size as Porsche). He didn't get away thankfully and she regained enough control to keep his jaws from snapping into Porsche's side, which is what he went for. Pulled back within an inch of connecting. 

We both high-tailed it out of there, us going one way and them going the other way. Porsche yelled at him. I've only ever seen her bark at another dog once before, when that dog had no idea of what dog manners were and Porsche got annoyed and literally yelled at her.

I really hope this doesn't trigger any long-term issues. She's already not the best with other dogs on leash. I mean, there was no dog fight or anything and no damage was done, and she wasn't scared or anything after and calmed down pretty quick. Her attitude to the incident seemed... indignant. Like, "WTF are you doing, how dare you? Do you not have any manners?". I was the one who got scared.

Continued the rest of the walk as normal. We ended up at the park and there were lots of dogs in the distance so I thought it would be a perfect scenario to do some LAT, which went very well. She was far enough away to notice them, but under threshold enough to look at me and take food (the kibble I so handily had on me already). I may have overkilled it again as I did see some mental tiredness. We then left the park and we were walking through the neighbourhood, on the sidewalk, and saw a dog on the porch of a house we were walking by. Close enough that she normally would pull towards it. Porsche just glanced at the dog and kept walking. I was like... wow. No idea what that was but I like it lol.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That really sucks, but it sounds like she recovered quickly and did a great job!


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Awe I'm sorry you had to experience that.  Glad it didn't seem to leave a lasting effect.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Both my dogs have been jumped multiple times by other dogs, and neither one of them has big issues from it. I think it is possible, particularly in a dog already inherently prone to reactivity, to trigger issues via an encounter with an aggressive dog, but I also think a lot of owners kind of foster the issues themselves by overreacting about what is, for a dog, not a terribly strange encounter. Easier said than done, but if the dog isn't actually injured, IMO it's best to just be like WOW THAT DOG WAS MAD, HUH? LET'S KEEP GOING ABOUT OUR BUSINESS AS USUAL. Which it sounds like you did. Dogs really pick up on our attitudes.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yeah, I just kind of hightailed it out and tried to move on lol. They didn’t connect, nothing actually happened except the dog rushed us, snarling, and the lady was shrieking trying to control him. I mean, I certainly could’ve done a better job as well, put my dog on my left instead of my right for example. 

But whatever, what’s done is done and thankfully left no lasting impression. She’s been entirely normal on walks and at home. 

In other news, 3 super short (3 reps each) sessions later, Porsche did a roll over on just a gesture (no touching) this morning for the first time.  Tricks are fun!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's awesome! 

See, we told you tricks are fun


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You know, I just realized I was so focused on the weird contact behavior that I forgot to post about Molly and her other behavior in class this week. 

Bottom line? Nothing. She reacted I think ONCE, when a little terrier was yelling at her but that was it. Otherwise, we even got through the door and out into the parking lot without so much as a wobble. She also did not react to said little terrier doing a 180 away from the exercise it was meant to be doing and rushing her. 

Bottom line? She still barks her head off if other dogs are highly aroused and vocalizing themselves, and that's true at home as well as in class. Otherwise, I haven't seen anything else from her I'd call real reactivity in at least a month, probably more.

The internet has informed me that if it appears before a year old/maturity that it isn't reactivity and also reactivity doesn't go away. I'm going to let that stand and just assume she grew out of it, but I'm ALSO going to have a little party for myself because apparently we really ARE past that issue - at least for now. Or, I guess, at least in a point where it is no longer something I feel the need to actively manage or give brain space to.

If that changes later, we'll deal later, but right now I'm just glad to have that piece of my brain back.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Just when I thought the rat desensitization was finally working and she was slowly returning to her normal self, the rats finally found the bottom of their large cage, and now very much enjoy running and jumping around there and coming up to the bars to sniff the dog and the cat. 

Naturally all thoughts of anything other than rats have ceased to exist for Porsche lol. They're all safe, but she lives in her crate next to the rat cage now. She will occasionally come out to say hi to us, or if we really want her to go outside to pee, but other than that I'm slowly forgetting I own a dog lol. She'll sit/lie down and watch and wait until the rats wake up again to go play. 

On the other hand, we did get our first back foot steps on the pivot bowl today.  And she's now figured out that she can roll over on command without having to be told "down" first. 
I think this is my favourite part of training - teaching something brand new and watching her progress to understanding.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I think I'm finally done with the burnout phase, and I hope learned something from it. 

I've been training more and more every day, and been able to redirect myself away from anxiety-causing thoughts and patterns easier. 

In other news, looks like that near-attack did leave some sort of imprint, because now instead of just pulling/growling on leash, she starts barking at other dogs if we have to pass closely enough. 

So I've started doing LAT with her. She's already caught onto the game as long as I keep her under threshold. She looks at the dog then back to me for the treat before I tell her the look at me command. As the dog gets further and further away, the less interest she shows in looking at it again each time - so I have to readjust and move close enough for the dog to capture her attention again. 

It has so far had the benefit of me actively looking forward to seeing other dogs, instead of dreading the experience. 

Now I just have to stick to not having a plan for training it.


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