# Supplementing Calcium In Raw Diet? (No Bones!)



## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

I have been researching and I read, in more than one place, that you can supplement the calcium in a dog's raw (or cooked) diet by using ground egg shell as opposed to the feeding of bones. Has anyone done this? I love a raw diet for my guys, however I am disliking the feeding of the raw bones. Now, I know many, many people do it, and stand by it, but I personally am not comfortable doing it any longer as of lately.

I want to take out the raw bones I had been using, and from my research, the main purpose of the bones is calcium. Meat provides phosphorus, bone provides calcium (and you end up with a nice calcium;phosphorus ratio). In my research, I found a few raw and homemade diet websites that said you can replace bones by grinding one large eggshell every day, which makes about 1/2 tsp of ground eggshell, and equals around 1,000mg of calcium.

I would like to do this, as oppose to actually using a supplement. Opinions? 

Though I use some 'exotic' meats, I stick a lot to chicken, beef, turkey, and lamb. Lately, since I discontinued bones, I buy fryer chickens and cut all the meat off, or I also buy cheap packs of chicken quarters and thighs with bones, and cut the meat off the bone. Works good, I just need to supplement that calcium.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Raw bones not only supplement, but keep teeth shiny and clean  
Pep's teeth since having raw bones occasionaly are pearly whites


----------



## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Well, I probably should've added that they DO get big, non edible bones for their teeth. I use the Beef Marrow bones for that. I'm talking about just bones in general in their meals. I've been doing raw a while now, bones and all, and I just don't feel comfortable with the small bones anymore. A few of my rescues have little to no teeth, and I watch them have increasing difficulty with the bones. Once I began grinding the meat and bone together, I did not like some of the small bone shards I was seeing.

And I know, I'm going to get a lot of pro-bone talk and all, but with my guys, I just personally am not comfortable with it any longer. I will, of course, continue the raw diet but I want to exclude the bones and replace the calcium from them with something else. That's why I was curious about the crushed egg shells.

As far as their teeth go, as I mentioned, they get the beef marrow bones for that and they work great.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Why are you not comfortable with the bones?
ETA Oh the teeth thing, ok. Well that makes sense.

I use ground eggshell with the cat who doesn't eat bone yet. It's acceptable from what I've been told. I think you could just get a calcium suppliment though, eggs are kinda costly honestly.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think eggshells have to be really finely ground in order to be a decent calcium supplement. Maybe bone meal? Here's a link: http://www.solidgoldhealth.com/products/showproduct.php?id=26&code=514

Or a human calcium supplement. I don't know how much you'd have to give them, though.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I was told bonemeal is stewed and it loses value, so it's not that great.


----------



## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

Pffft-- eggs are cheap. What other food will let you feed a nutritious meal to your whole family (of four) AND give you nearly 2 weeks of calcium supplement or a tasty treat for your dog at the same time for less than 2 bucks?

I lurves me a nice fluffy 3-egg omelette. 

Be careful with bones-- dogs CAN fracture teeth on bones, and of course small poultry bones can get lodged in a gut, windpipe or throat.

Ever seen a surgery to fix an intestinal blockage from bones? I have... assisted in MANY in my day-- thankfully, not on one of my own. It ain't pretty. Ever seen a dog with a mouthful of slab fractures on their teeth and incisors worn to nubs from chewing on hard objects? I have, along with the repair fillings or, more often, extractions that happen as a result. And yeah, teeth are REAL white (at first) when the enamel wears off...

I'm not a fan of bones for dogs except as a rare supervised treat to be taken away when the chewy stuff is gone.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Eggs aren't $2, and if you don't eat them yourself it is expensive. 

Dogs can also choke on kibble. Raw bones that are not weight bearing large animal bones are actually soft, not something I see my dog fracturing a tooth on. My vet encourages us to feed raw bones for my dog and cats, he doesn't see impactions or fractures from it when done right. He helped me adjust the cat's diet very well.


----------



## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Willow, you are correct, they have to be finely grounded with a coffee grinder. However, I did see bone meal as another option as well. Some of the sites mentioned that bone meal has added phosphorus though, so it has to be calculated correctly. I've talk to a few people lately that also do raw but exclude edible bones and they use the bone meal with no problems, so I will look into it. Someone also told me that you can buy straight egg-shell powder at the local health food store, so I am going to look into that as well. If it's 100% pure egg shell and nothing else added, that would be really convenient too.

Jesi, you are right, eggs are expensive. They all get an egg usually everyday, but sometimes every-other-day, but I throw the shell away. With the ecomony, eggs are getting ridicuously pricey (I remember when they were $1.99 at our farmers market for two dozen. Now, they're $3.49!). 

Our local specialty pet store sells Solid Gold's whole line (I used to use their Seameal), and I know for a fact that they sell the bone meal there as well. I'm going to look into it. Thanks guys!


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

jesirose said:


> I was told bonemeal is stewed and it loses value, so it's not that great.


Probably it loses nutritional value from being steamed, but surely it still contains calcium? I don't see how that property of bone could be changed by steaming. Bone = calcium

Yeah, eggs are reasonably cheap. I buy them at $2.12 for 18 eggs. So....about 11¢ each? That's for normal factory-farm eggs (which I have some ethical issues with, but....one of my co-workers used to raise free-range chickens and brought us eggs, but he stopped because the chickens were annoying him  NOw I don't know where to find farm eggs). $3.49 for 2 dozen farm eggs is a great price, lets see, that's about 14¢ each. Not bad.

I feed my dogs raw eggs regularly. I give them the shells, too, but I don't grind them up, so I'm sure they don't get a lot of calcium from the shells. They just like the crunch  .


----------



## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

I don't think bone meal loses its calcium, even after steaming. A lot of the reading I've done on raw tonight suggest bone meal as well, and even more actually recommend Solid Gold's brand. If you look on the Solid Gold link, it shows that a 1tsp actually has over 1,000mg of calcium, which is really good. So I'm glad I asked you guys, cause I feel better about probably going with the bone meal. It's definitely more economical (the store here carries it for $9.98 for the 2lb container).


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Sadie LOVES the crunch lol. She loves crunchy things!

I got some bonemeal but the recommended amount was INSANE. After that I just tried the cats on real bones again and they did fine. If you have to use something tho it's better than no calcium hah!


----------



## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Eggs aren't $2, and if you don't eat them yourself it is expensive.


I don't know where you shop and I admit, I didn't see it on your profile. But here, I get a dozen eggs for $1.89.

My Mitzi LOVES eggs. ALL of the egg.

As for the tooth fractures, they tend to occur most often on the molars and the large carnassial teeth (not the fang teeth/canines), also called the fourth maxillary premolar and first mandibular molar. These are the teeth that dogs and other carnivores use for shearing meat and bone. These teeth are also fairly far back in the mouth and hard to see sometimes.

Many vets don't do dentistry, so they may miss these fractures during an exam, especially if the dog is reluctant to allow an oral exam.

Just because a vet says something doesn't mean that it's the norm or that it's always right. I know vets that swear that feline heartworm doesn't exist. However, I have (in a cedar box on my dresser) the cremains/ashes of my cat who died of heartworms. You know something? Her vet was one that swore black and blue that feline HW didn't exist-- until Nirvana tested positive, and later-- during her necropsy-- showed the worms in her heart and pulmonary arteries. So why would my vet think that FHW disease didn't exist? Because in vet school they are taught that the Canids are the preferred host. True, but "preferred" and "sole" are not synonymous.

Lastly, I personally know a little dog that got into a trash can that had bones in it. She ate the bones. She got "impacted". She had surgery, but died the next day. It does happen. Just because it hasn't happened to you or one of your pets doesn't mean that it CAN'T happen. So dogs have choked on kibble. People have choked on ice cubes, too. Freak things do happen. But why tempt fate by feeding something that has a higher risk of causing injury or damage to the teeth?

My $.02


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

My vet taught me how to brush Sadie's teeth, I trust his dentistry skills. 

The dog that ate bones out of the trash most likely ate COOKED bones. Not raw bones. I'd highly doubt someone threw away random raw bones - more likely they threw away their uneated cooked chicken wings. I think raw bones benefit the teeth, not hurt them. To me kibble has a higher risk of damage to my dog, so I feed raw. 

Some vets are nuts. I found one that isn't, and I trust him. If my vet tried to tell me something like heartworm didn't exist, I would find a new vet, not argue with them. I'm sorry your friend's vet wasn't open to learning. 

I live in Texas and last time I bought eggs it was $4 for a dozen.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It's usually the cooked bones that cause problems (it's not very likely that bones from a garbage can are raw). Size-appropriate raw bones are as safe as anything can be. Except weight-bearing bones....they're extra-dense and definitely can cause tooth fractures. I feel safe in offering my pets raw bones. I feel safer with that than with kibble, anyway. Life is all about calculated risks.


----------



## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

jesirose said:


> I live in Texas and last time I bought eggs it was $4 for a dozen.


Hmmm... I see where you are now, and I'm NOT surprised. I'm not far from you. You must be shopping at Whole Foods or Central Market, or going organic.

Ever checked out Carnival or Sack n' Save? Minyard's chain stores seem to have more reasonable prices for a lot of things. Even the Albertson's by me isn't THAT high on eggs.

As for the bones, the owner stated that the bones were RAW. I was the tech that checked the dog in, and I assisted in the surgery. The dog ate roughly the equivalent by weight of an entire chicken carcass.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

On the subject of actual supplements: here's a thread I made awhile ago on the ca ratio. Not exactly your question but briteday made an excellent reply that will serve as a helpful guideline.

http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/25240-calcium-phosphorus-ratio.html


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

MitzisMom said:


> Hmmm... I see where you are now, and I'm NOT surprised. I'm not far from you. You must be shopping at Whole Foods or Central Market, or going organic.
> 
> Ever checked out Carnival or Sack n' Save? Minyard's chain stores seem to have more reasonable prices for a lot of things. Even the Albertson's by me isn't THAT high on eggs.
> 
> As for the bones, the owner stated that the bones were RAW. I was the tech that checked the dog in, and I assisted in the surgery. The dog ate roughly the equivalent by weight of an entire chicken carcass.


That was at Albertson's. It doesn't really matter...


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

MitzisMom said:


> As for the bones, the owner stated that the bones were RAW. I was the tech that checked the dog in, and I assisted in the surgery. The dog ate roughly the equivalent by weight of an entire chicken carcass.


Well, that is excessive. I've known dogs who died from eating too much kibble all at once, too. In moderation, raw bones are fine. Although I don't know anyone who throws away raw chicken bones...it's so hard to get the meat off the bones until it's cooked.

Wow! $4 a dozen for eggs? Is that for organic free-range, or for the regular factory-farm eggs? Cuz that's just nuts. ETA; I saw that the price is for reglar eggs. Huh. Good thing I don't like eggs...I only buy them for the dogs for fun. I wonder if the price is going up all over or if it's a local thing for you.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

It was around Thanksgiving. I don't know about you guys but prices went up for EVERYTHING this past few months. I can't buy cereal anymore! Spaghetti-os went from 88 cents to 2.30 at albertons. I promise you the eggs were $4. I only ever buy eggs to make deviled eggs for parties, and Sadie loves them. But I can't buy stuff like that often we just don't use eggs for anything. We hardly use milk! 









What size was the dog? an entire chicken may have been way too much.


----------



## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

Willowy said:


> It's usually the cooked bones that cause problems (it's not very likely that bones from a garbage can are raw). Size-appropriate raw bones are as safe as anything can be. Except weight-bearing bones....they're extra-dense and definitely can cause tooth fractures. I feel safe in offering my pets raw bones. I feel safer with that than with kibble, anyway. Life is all about calculated risks.


Not to quibble, but I disagree with the safety of bones for the reasons I already stated. You've had positive experiences, and that's wonderful-- but unfortunately, I've seen too many not-positive experiences. Not with my own as I don't give bones to my dog, but with other dogs.

Sure, many dogs have bones all their lives with nary a problem, but many others have trouble, from broken teeth to cuts from shards of bone (even big bones) to lethal impactions.

Sure, life is all about calculated risks-- but that's one risk I choose to avoid. There are safer ways to clean a dog's teeth and safer ways to supplement calcium.

Just my $.02.

(handshake?)


----------



## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Your thinking of cooked bones, there are no reports on raw bones being dangerous.
Dogs stomach's are able to digest basically anything it was made for. Which is why they can digest raw meat and raw bones.

The bones we eat meat off of are obviously cooked for us, not for dogs. Any bones found in trash cans or table scrap bones are not good, usually they are soft and the dogs just bite off huge chunks and swallow them whole.

If you are feeding the right type of raw bones to your dog then everything will be fine.

There are more risks with things you buy from the store, like rawhide.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Haha, I'm just a "recreational" raw feeder. I'm not hard-core at all. You're lucky RawFedDogs didn't get in on this. I don't care if people give their dogs bones or not, or whether I give my dogs bones or not. Though I don't really know a safer way of cleaning their teeth...I've had bad experiences with both rawhides and professional cleanings (reactions to the anesthetic), so it's just the safest way I know of. I just like a good discussion. 'Tis fun  .


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I'm not so much doing it for the teeth but just overall health and it's more natural IMO. But this was a thread about teeth.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

jesirose said:


> I'm not so much doing it for the teeth but just overall health and it's more natural IMO. But this was a thread about teeth.


No...this was a thread about calcium supplements. Hence my confusion when it turned into a bone-or-no-bone debate.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> No...this was a thread about calcium supplements. Hence my confusion when it turned into a bone-or-no-bone debate.


LOL you're right, I got confused about which thread I was on. 

Sorry  Anyway I don't see why you couldn't use a plain calcium suppliment like you would for omega-3 or something.


----------



## MitzisMom (Dec 26, 2008)

jesirose said:


> LOL you're right, I got confused about which thread I was on.
> 
> Sorry  Anyway I don't see why you couldn't use a plain calcium suppliment like you would for omega-3 or something.


Well, a human strength calcium supplement may be far too much calcium for a dog (depending on the dog's size). Calcium doesn't just affect bones and teeth-- it is essential for the nervous system. Calcium overdoses can cause neurological problems; calcium excesses over time can cause kidney and bladder stones.

There are pet calcium supplements. Pet-Cal is one that comes to mind. Those are made for dogs and cats. The dosing instructions are included (they used to be), but talk with your vet first to see how much your dog needs. She may be getting a significant amount of calcium in her diet, and really need very little supplementation. Also, yogurt is another calcium source, and GENERALLY causes few lactose-associated problems. Many dogs LOVE the stuff (PLAIN flavor). NOTE: before starting ANY calcium supplement, BE SURE to talk to your vet. Oh-- I said that already!

As for rawhides-- I don't give those either. I brush Mitzi's teeth daily, and she has Kong toys for chewing. Professional cleaning and anesthesia can be very safe IF you do the pre-op bloodwork and EKG ahead of time to make sure that your baby doesn't have a systemic problem like bad kidneys or a heart defect. Even vaccines can cause reactions, or bee stings, or bones if your dog has an allergy that you weren't aware of.

*sigh*

There will always be the "bones" crowd and the "bone-free" crowd, and never the twain shall meet.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

I would consider buying human supplements. You really needn't give the full dosage -- talk to your vet to see how much your dogs need. Generally, pet supplements tend to be VERY overpriced, much more expensive than the human supplements for the same stuff. Glucosamine is a good example. With the number of dogs MRC has, I think it's probably best to be as economical as possible.



jesirose said:


> LOL you're right, I got confused about which thread I was on.


No worries.


----------



## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Whoa, I missed alot being gone today. 

I think I'm going to use the Bone Meal made by Solid Gold. All my online reading has yielded nothing but good results in using it for a raw (and cooked) diet when excluding bones. It's also very economical, at only $9.98 for a 2 pound container.


----------

