# Countersurfing - I really lost my temper



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

So, I have to admit something I'm not proud of. Today I really lost my temper with Pete, I yelled at him and smacked him on the muzzle (not too hard but it definitely wasn't a pet). He had just finished eating half a bag of NEW, sealed groceries. Yesterday he ate my rommates lunch from a favorite restaurant. He counter surfs like crazy, whenever I leave the room. He is smart enough to know he's not supposed to and I can never catch him in the act. It has to be dealt with for both our sanity, I don't want another incident like today.

Before you guys suggest never leaving anything on our table... its not an option. We try to be as neat as possible but I live with several people and I can't tell them to _never for a moment_ leave dishes or food on their own kitchen table because my dog likes to walk around up there.

I have tried kikopups method but Pete is smart enough to know that when I'm not in the room there will be no reward for ignoring the food. Furthermore he must be left loose whenever I leave and he always gets up there, usually making a mess.

I think I have to use aversives. I would rather not though so if there's another method I'd rather try that.... Ideas?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

If you can't prevent the behaviour from happening when you're not supervising, no amount of training will fix it, aversives or not.

The first step is to manage the behaviour, which means to never leave food out, OR restrict access. Only when that is done can you do any sort of training. Over time, the new behaviour will become habit and he will eventually be able to be unsupervised, but it will take time to break the habit.

I'm personally a fan of "it's yer choice", which you can find on youtube. It teaches general impulse control around food. But unless you can prevent him from practising bad habits when you're not around, it's not going to work.


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## MimiAzura (Jan 5, 2013)

why must he be left loose when you leave?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Poor Pete. He's being set up, then blamed for behaviours which are totally natural for a dog.

If you insist on using aversives, I'd be inclined to use them on the roommates instead. Simply TURN A BLIND EYE whenever groceries get eaten. Just give'm the ole *ho hum, la dee dah who cares, yawn*. With the price of food these days, I'd bet my last bag o' donuts they'll learn very quickly to not leave any temptations lying around.

Seriously though, I still think you'll find it much easier to train your roommates, rather than hanging Pete out to dry.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Can you keep him out of the kitchen? I know it's a pain, but we lived with baby gates (and a screen door insert) for years to keep our cat off the carpet. That would prevent Pete from having access to the counters, but not confine him too much.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, aversive or not, the food being left out is a reward. If he gets that, no aversive in the world will put him off it. Kylie hates, hates, hates, small enclosed spaces. A few times of being lured through a fabric tunnel and finding food there? No longer aversive. You're going to have to, somehow, take away his access to the food. If he succeeds at getting it, he's rewarded for whatever he did, or had to 'get through' to get it. Same conditioning as training.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

I feel for you. I've got kids and I've really been trying to drill it into them about how important it is to NOT leave food where the dog can get it. I've been telling them that every time Lenny manages to get food off of the table or off the counter it is giving him positive reinforcement that getting on the table gets you fabulous tasty rewards. It's basically training him to get on the table; jump on the table, get a reward. Luckily Lenny is small enough that he can't jump onto the counter, but he can jump on the table and he can drag stuff off the counter if its close enough to the edge.

I imagine your roommates feel like he's a 'bad dog' and feel that you should be able to train him not to do it. Unfortunately I just don't see how you will be able to get him to quit if he keeps getting rewards for the behavior (which is what he's getting) Could you get some sort of dog proof container for groceries? Sme sort of barrier to keep Pete out of the kitchen?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I agree with the others - if there is food there, and he knows that he can get it, there's no amount of aversives that will stop him. 

I will put things around the edge of the counter (like a cookie sheet or pizza peel) so that Watson will either avoid jumping up there, or it will fall when he does. I know though that if he was left alone long enough, he would knock the thing off, then go back a couple minutes later and take the food anyway. Those kinds of things only work when the dog is alone, but you're close enough to run in and stop them. If the dog is completely unsupervised, there's not much you can do beyond not leaving food out.

If you can't get your roommates to quit leaving food out, then I would gate him off from the kitchen or gate him into another room. There's really nothing you can do but manage his access to the kitchen in general. Like others said, you can train at that point, but I've known dogs who were perfectly trained to never touch food when a human was around, but would go strait for it as soon as they were alone.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

How does such a tiny dog get on the counter? 

And maybe try sticky tape? I know Selah Cowgirl suggested one of those plastic office mats with the nubs on them, but Pete's paws might be small for that.

I agree and disagree with the others. I think if the dog already got something off the counter, no use in punishing because what's done is done so punishing just teaches it to hide those behaviors from you and to fear you. But I also think that counter surfing is a problem that needs to be fixed, in my household. I do COMPLETELY agree with management first; no dogs in the kitchen and/or be hyper vigilant about food being left out. 

But I get where you're coming from. I've lived with messy roommates who spontaneously leave food out (even at nose level coffee tables) and ideas like 'keep the dog somewhere else' would not have been an option because this could happen at any time of the day, and my dog would have been confined virtually all day if I wanted to guarantee NO overlap between him being out and food being out. I did come up with a compromise with my roommates (their house, before it is my dog's house), where they clean up any spilled food immediately. STILL, did not prevent my dog from licking up pure cocoa powder from the floor once. That's the closest I've ever come to blowing up at someone. And this is coming from someone who does not have a counter surfing problem at all (avoided it by never giving him the opportunity in his 6.5 years of life so he doesn't even know he can; we keep food out all the time).

My point is, to me half of this is selfish preference on my part; I simply don't want to have to be hyper aware if I'm leaving muffins to cool on the table. But the other half of it is, because I *absolutely cannot* control every variable and because I've been living with roommates for so long, preventing counter surfing is a safety concern as well. In a last ditch scenario I would absolutely not hesitate to use aversives to fix this problem; though it depends on the dog and depends on the aversive.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> If you can't get your roommates to quit leaving food out, then I would gate him off from the kitchen or gate him into another room. There's really nothing you can do but manage his access to the kitchen in general. Like others said, you can train at that point, but I've known dogs who were perfectly trained to never touch food when a human was around, but would go strait for it as soon as they were alone.


And for the record, I do recommend trying everything else before using aversives, but just using this as an example... Depending on the setup of your house, it might be impossible to block the dog off. When Soro was growing up, the first floor of our house (he wasn't allowed upstairs) was one big, seamless room including the living room and kitchen.



elrohwen said:


> I will put things around the edge of the counter (like a cookie sheet or pizza peel) so that Watson will either avoid jumping up there, or it will fall when he does. I know though that if he was left alone long enough, he would knock the thing off, then go back a couple minutes later and take the food anyway. Those kinds of things only work when the dog is alone, but you're close enough to run in and stop them. If the dog is completely unsupervised, there's not much you can do beyond not leaving food out.


But I like this idea!


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

Canyx said:


> And for the record, I do recommend trying everything else before using aversives, but just using this as an example... Depending on the setup of your house, it might be impossible to block the dog off. When Soro was growing up, the first floor of our house (he wasn't allowed upstairs) was one big, seamless room including the living room and kitchen.


Our house is similar. I'd get frustrated reading how to house train because all the websites said to gate off a small area and slowly expand. There is no way to gate off a small area in our downstairs. Well, I guess we could, but it would be very expensive and probably require custom made gates.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

You could use an ex-pen maybe?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

aiw said:


> He counter surfs like crazy, whenever I leave the room.


Though this makes me think you could potentially block off the room? If possible that WOULD be the easiest solution.

And for people who asked why he is left free roaming, I believe Pete has serious SA issues, takes medication for it, and is fine if not confined in a small space. But aiw can correct me on that.


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## RoughCollie (Mar 7, 2011)

Aidan is a Master Counter Surfer. He now stretches so he can reach anything on it. I have not been able to train him out of it. We have an open floor plan downstairs: living room - dining room - kitchen. I know I can buy extremely long baby gates, but they are expensive, and I don't want to, so we manage Aidan's behavior instead, by managing our own.

He can't jump on the table unless someone leaves their chair pulled out. Everyone pushes in their chair, and if someone forgets, he gets on the table. It doesn't matter, though, because everyone makes sure to clear their places. We don't have a disposal, so everyone puts their leftovers in the trash can, which by dinnertime has been placed out of reach on a bar stool. They put their dishes, including silverware, in the sink. Aidan will also take silverware to lick.

When I bake, I have food cooling on the counter. I either guard that food while I clean up, or I put it back in the corner and surround it with large objects (like flour and sugar cannisters) so Aidan can't get to it. He likes to grab baked goods, especially. After baked goods have cooled, I keep the bread in a drawer and the cookies and muffins in a large, airtight, cannister. Pies and cakes go in the fridge. Sometimes I put a plate of cookies or brownies in the cabinet, atop a stack of plates, just to keep them out of his way for awhile.

When I cook, I serve the meal, and then I put away the leftovers. Usually they are safe because I can put a lid on the pots and pans. Sometimes I put food in the oven or microwave to store it while we eat.

After a meal, people either put their dishes into a previously empty sink or directly into the dishwasher. I put away the leftovers immediately, and clean the kitchen.

Every time I walk into the kitchen, I scan the counters and dining table (we have an open floor plan) to make sure no one has left food out. This has become a habit.

I have a much smaller kitchen than I used to, and I had to declutter it, and make sure everything had a place for this to work. That's how I got a drawer freed for bread. Then I had to drum it into everyone's heads about cleaning up after themselves, and not leaving food out unattended. This has resulted in a much cleaner kitchen and in food being stored properly and promptly. 

Once, my sons brought in groceries, and while they were at the car getting another load to bring in, Aidan ate 2 1-lb. steaks. I have never figured out how he did that so fast -- it seems impossible, but I was there when he was caught. Now, grocery bags go on the counter and the food is put away as it comes in. If only one person is here, food from the first load of groceries is put away before the next load is brought up. 

If I had roommates (aside from my family, I mean), I would tell them to crate Aidan while they ate and cleaned up after themselves, and while they brought groceries in and put them away. I would make sure everything, including all food, has a storage place. I have had to get creative with ideas of where to store things. I have a couple of Ikea Billy bookcases with doors, for instance, in which I store pantry items. The doors are the key, because Aidan doesn't try to open them. Many kitchen utensils hang on hooks from a rod on the wall (from Ikea) and my cooking knives are on a magnetic strip on the wall (from Amazon). This freed up a drawer.

Every part of my house that Aidan has access to has been decluttered. Everything has a place, and I every time I go into a room, I scan it for items left out. The doors to my kids' rooms and the bathroom stay closed at all times. I like it better this way ... we've formed good habits, and guests can drop in and there is nothing to be embarrassed about. 

Now, this is not to say that we are perfect. The other day, I put a plate with a pbj sandwich on it on a table next to the front door, and leaned down to put on Aidan's leash. He grabbed 1/2 the sandwich and it went down his gullet in record time. So mistakes are made and carelessness happens. I am always vigilant about making sure Aidan doesn't have access to food (raisins) or items (like knives) that could hurt him.

PS Aidan also unzips and empties backpacks. Everyone is now trained to put those in their bedrooms so he can't get to them. My kids often have leftover food in their backpacks, which I do not want Aidan to eat, and I also don't want him to chew up pencils and pens and ingest them.


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## Kobismom (Dec 17, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Poor Pete. He's being set up, then blamed for behaviours which are totally natural for a dog.
> 
> If you insist on using aversives, I'd be inclined to use them on the roommates instead. Simply TURN A BLIND EYE whenever groceries get eaten. Just give'm the ole *ho hum, la dee dah who cares, yawn*. With the price of food these days, I'd bet my last bag o' donuts they'll learn very quickly to not leave any temptations lying around.
> 
> Seriously though, I still think you'll find it much easier to train your roommates, rather than hanging Pete out to dry.


I totally agree... you can only train Pete if all the people in the house are willing to train Pete. Gotta train the people first and then the animal. If your roommates are too lazy/complacent to put their dishes/groceries away, then they have a natural consequence. Maybe it'll teach them to not be such slobs.


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## Spazmelda (Jan 27, 2013)

Kobismom said:


> I totally agree... you can only train Pete if all the people in the house are willing to train Pete. Gotta train the people first and then the animal. If your roommates are too lazy/complacent to put their dishes/groceries away, then they have a natural consequence. Maybe it'll teach them to not be such slobs.


This is what I'm working on my kids with. Of course, they are my kids so I can talk sternly to them and lay down the law. I've already told them I'm not going to rescue stuffed animals and Legos if they are being chewed (I do take them away if they are a choking or bowel obstructing hazard, but I usually let them get chewed some first). We work on leave it, but we are not there yet, so the kids have to know that if there is something they value they need to PUT IT AWAY. This is their responsibility, not the dog's. if they leave their pop-tart on the table with the chair pulled out they will be minus one pop-tart and won't get another to replace it. I still try to be eagle eyes and catch problems before it gets to that point, but I tell them, "someone's about to get your x, you'd better take care of it", so they have a chance to be responsible.

I understand with room mates its a different kind of interaction, and there may not be a lot you can do to get them to reform their ways. How do they feel about the dog in general?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Canyx said:


> I believe Pete has serious SA issues, takes medication for it,


That's even more reason to take the potential use of aversives off the table. No pun intended.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Well, you could block off the kitchen, or you could put the dog up when you're not around.
Better yet, have the people you live with put him up before they start packing groceries in. Teach them to put the dog away, unload groceries, then go let him out, and you do the same.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Well I live part time in an apartment(condo) with roommates (luckily I am the landlord) and my dog is a counter surfer-- always will be-- its pretty hard to break as is self rewarding. I have everyone leave their stuff on top of the Fridge, or in the oven or microwave, as thats pretty much the only places she cant reach (shes a giant schnauzer, once she took a frying pan full of meat off the stove) and now that she is 3 it has abated somewhat (we sprinkle black pepper in the trash and she pretty much leaves that alone)....But good luck, it wasnt worth it for me to keep her confined while I work and we seemed to have worked out a solution that everyone can live by....


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Though this makes me think you could potentially block off the room? If possible that WOULD be the easiest solution.
> 
> And for people who asked why he is left free roaming, *I believe Pete has serious SA issues, takes medication for it, and is fine if not confined in a small space. But aiw can correct me on that*.


Yep. For anyone wondering about the 'must be left loose' bit its because of this. When he has free roam of the house his anxiety level is low enough for me to leave the house, when I confine him (even to just a room instead of a crate) I generally come home to not only a mess but a dangerously panicked dog.

The kitchen is a really tough area to block off. I'll look into gates for training but the house isn't really built to cordon off the kitchen. Like i said for people who think I should be "training the roommates". I actually agree with them. They should be able to eat at their own kitchen table. I'm not their mother or their landlord, me nagging 24/7 would make both our lives awful and not accomplish much. He used to not be able to get up there when the chairs were pushed in (so I always made sure to do that) but now he has clearly figured out some houdini-like method to get up there even when they're pushed in. Still not sure how....

EDIT:
The rommates in general have been really patient and great with Pete. Which I am impressed by because he has NOT been an easy dog on them. He took about 6 months to housetrain with many, many accidents including two on a roomies bed. He has destroyed a couple items while in a panic when I was gone and they've had to listen to him scream when I wasn't around. They really can't be painted as the villain here and they definitely can't be treated like wayward children in their own home. There are limits to how much of my life and others I'm prepared to let the dog dictate.

Dose anyone have any suggestions other than management?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

aiw said:


> Yep. For anyone wondering about the 'must be left loose' bit its because of this. When he has free roam of the house his anxiety level is low enough for me to leave the house, when I confine him (even to just a room instead of a crate) I generally come home to not only a mess but a dangerously panicked dog.
> 
> The kitchen is a really tough area to block off. I'll look into gates for training but the house isn't really built to cordon off the kitchen. Like i said for people who think I should be "training the roommates". I actually agree with them. They should be able to eat at their own kitchen table. I'm not their mother or their landlord, me nagging 24/7 would make both our lives awful and not accomplish much. He used to not be able to get up there when the chairs were pushed in (so I always made sure to do that) but now he has clearly figured out some houdini-like method to get up there even when they're pushed in. Still not sure how....
> 
> ...


I was also wondering how your roommates have taken to your dog adventure! Honestly, I wouldn't have been able to live with you and Pete (mostly because of the whining and misophonia and such). 
And Spazmelda is totally right; living with your family and living with roommates are completely different. The key differences are levels of accountability and responsibility. No, the roommates don't "have to be trained" to do ANYTHING other than not directly interacting with the dog if asked, since the dog is your property (ex. feeding your dog without permission). I always think, within reason, my roommates' comforts comes before my dog's. Doesn't mean I make the dog suffer, but it does mean _I_ need to put in the extra effort, NOT my roommates. If the roommates like leaving the door open in the summer, I need to teach my dogs to not bolt or I need to buy a gate or install a screen door. If the roommates want to throw a party, I need to make it easy for them to put my dog out of the way. If the roommates leave crumbs on the floor, I need to vacuum it up even if it's their crumbs (if it's for my dog's sake and not a general cleanliness issue).
Obviously it is ALL about compromise. A reasonable roommate should be willing to, say, agree on a strategy to leaving the door open if my dog isn't trained not to bolt yet. But when push comes to shove, when you have 2 or 5 different lifestyles and schedules happening at the same time and everyone is responsible only for his/herself, you cannot expect your roommates to do anything for you. And this is coming from someone who has had extremely positive renting experiences. 

Aiw, I would highly recommend setting up a camera, maybe even 'setting Pete up to fail' by blocking the counter with the chairs, baiting the counter, and pretending to leave. It would be worth figuring out exactly how he is doing it so that you can just block whatever the point of entry is instead of playing guessing games. Even if there was an easy fix (aversive or not), you can't use it unless you know what you're up against.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Aiw, I would highly recommend setting up a camera, maybe even 'setting Pete up to fail' by blocking the counter with the chairs, baiting the counter, and pretending to leave. It would be worth figuring out exactly how he is doing it so that you can just block whatever the point of entry is instead of playing guessing games. Even if there was an easy fix (aversive or not), you can't use it unless you know what you're up against.


Good point, maybe if I see exactly how he's doing it there would be an easy way to block it. I think he's somehow leveraging the tiny bit of the chairs that stick out at the end of the table but I haven't seen him do it. I'll set up my laptop and take a look, thanks.

So this is the tentative plan, I'll rig up some kind of barrier for when no one is in the house or if that proves impossible we'll try confining him to a room instead (haven't tried is since I took him off the medication) while we do desensitization. I'm going to try the Its Yer Choice exercises and the kikopup stuff again. He is able to control himself just fine when I'm in the room, its just when he has an opportunity to sneak something he won't hesitate. I'm also considering getting a trainer in and using maybe a loud noise, paw pads or an ecollar (depending on the mildest option that will work). I really don't like the idea but I'm not prepared to police my roommates and make their lives hell over my dogs bad behaviour. They were very patient with the SA but that was essentially a medical condition and no reasonable person could hold him responsible for the panic he felt. I don't feel the same way about walking around on the table and I don't expect them to.

I'll keep everyone updated as we go. Thanks for all the advice!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think you need to actively "train" your roommates, and you definitely shouldn't nag. However, when my niece was _three years old_, she learned very quickly that leaving her toys lying around where Casper could get them resulted in chewed-up toys. She's picked them all up since. If a three-year-old can do it...


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

See, I still think the fact that the niece is a part of your family drastically changes how rules are set and followed.

But Aiw, let us know what the footage shows! Maybe it's as simple as blocking off one small section. I take back any aversive related suggestion I made thus far (sticky tape, mat thing) because if you don't know it can be dangerous for the dog. I thought Pete was simply standing with his paws up, before I remembered he is tiny! Imagine you have no idea how he does it, you booby trap the counter, Pete freaks out and falls off the counter and hurts himself. Same can be said for loud noises and the shock collar. For one thing, you still need to rig a camera to correct at the right moment. But I would not do it to a small dog that is fully on the counter. Even if it's not a freak-out fall, a very calculated maneuver to get off the counter FAST can still result in injury.

I may be completely wrong, but I think with such a *small* dog this problem can easily be fixed by blocking surfaces in the right way, once you figure out his strategy! Good luck!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Random suggestions:
1. Some dogs hate aluminum foil. Maybe if you papered the surfaces with aluminum foil, it might provide a temporary aversive - cool futuristic look 
2. A while back someone suggested using "kitty boobytraps" which are designed for the same purpose, but for cats. I don't have cats, so I don't know anything about them, nor even the correct name.
3. If you get an ecollar, you might seek one that makes a tone, before the shock, which may be sufficient. And, you can set it up to exclude Pete from the kitchen, either by radiowave or by taping wires to the floor (and you can put rugs over the taped wires, if more convenient.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh for crying out loud, if grown adults can't put their food away then honestly I'm not crying when a dog who is well-known to counter surf eats it.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Oh for crying out loud, if grown adults can't put their food away then honestly I'm not crying when a dog who is well-known to counter surf eats it.


Or as grown adults they could decide they want to live how they choose in their own home.... Without the aggravation of a difficult dog. I really can't be allowing my dog to dictate their lives (I don't really want my dog dictating my life either). I'm not proud of losing my temper, it wasn't helpful or fair... but this is an issue that needs to be solved, sometimes its a matter of the dog needing to adapt to the humans and learn some boundaries, not the other way around.

Update: we have done some impulse control exercises... he did really really well. But he still jumped up earlier this afternoon. Looking into trainers now...


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Have you figured out how he gets up there?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

aiw said:


> Or as grown adults they could decide they want to live how they choose in their own home....


They're perfectly free to live how they choose: They can leave food out or not, and live with the outcome. It's YOUR own home, too... you're not responsible for their stuff, they are.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It's a self-rewarding behavior. He's going to keep doing it when you're not present to stop him. It reminds me of that thread a while back where the woman's dog kept getting into her garbage can when she wasn't home and she refused to get a garbage can with a locking lid, put the can in a cupboard or up on a table when she wasn't home, or anything else like that. She said the dog should just "know" that it wasn't supposed to dig in there and reward itself with tasty treats. Sorry, lady, but no.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Have you figured out how he gets up there?


Oh! I forgot to include that.... yes I did figure it out. He is using the chairs at the end of the table (which stick out a bit due to the legs) and leveraging himself up. I've rigged up a system to keep him out of the kitchen while I'm not home and for now I'm treating it like housetraining. Not giving him a chance to fail while we work on the behaviour.

I don't expect him to just 'know' not to jump up on the table. But I hope to be able to teach him. We'll see how it goes, I'm not prepared to just surrender the kitchen table to the dog.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Fantastic! Easiest solution would be to just put that chair to the far side of the kitchen when not in use!
For the record aiw, I think it's pretty evident by my posts that I don't accept counter surfing. But if I were in your shoes I would move the chair and call it a day. I don't think you need to teach him not to get up there. It won't be a hassle to leave food on the table anymore if he can't get it anyways.

EDIT:


aiw said:


> I'll see how it goes, I'm not prepared to just surrender the kitchen table to the dog.


Don't start thinking that way; it's poison. I know you know better but lesser trainers get the idea that the dog is constantly challenging them and if that thought is planted then everything goes downhill from there. I KNOW you don't mean it in that sense. But still. Besides, even so you've already won; just move the chair


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, I wasn't suggesting that you just give up and let the dog walk all over the table like a cat. I was pointing out that the easy solution for the woman whose dog got into the garbage when she wasn't home was to either buy a locking garbage can lid or put the can in a cupboard. Easiest solution here is to either stop leaving food out (i.e., removing his reason to WANT on the table) or prevent the dog from having access to the table. It sounds like you've figured out a way to do the latter, so problem solved, in my opinion. No need to resort to harsh methods that could actually harm your dog mentally or physically (and probably wouldn't work, anyway, because of the whole self-rewarding thing).


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Don't start thinking that way; it's poison. I know you know better but lesser trainers get the idea that the dog is constantly challenging them and if that thought is planted then everything goes downhill from there. I KNOW you don't mean it in that sense. But still. Besides, even so you've already won; just move the chair


 You're right. I was angry before but he's just doing what comes naturally. Still though, like excessive barking just because its natural doesnt mean he shouldnt learn other habits. We'll see how it goes, I've told roomies I'm working on it but im the meantime keep a close eye on food.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I get where you're coming from and honestly if I had a large dog that counter surfed only when I wasn't looking, I would do something like set up one of those ultrasonic devices that emit a sound at the push of a button, set up a camera, and fix the problem permanently. I would do this because it would be easier and less stressful for me, compared to managing my roommates' habits and even my own habits; I don't want to have to keep track of where my dog is as food is cooling. It is 100% a convenience for ME. (Though I say this having no experience with counter surfing since it's never been a problem, so maybe I'm just talking)
But if I had a small dog like Pete, the easiest, least stressful, most convenient thing for me to do would be to move the chair.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Canyx said:


> I get where you're coming from and honestly if I had a large dog that counter surfed only when I wasn't looking, I would do something like set up one of those ultrasonic devices that emit a sound at the push of a button, set up a camera, and fix the problem permanently.


Hehe, assuming the ultrasonic device (or even a shock collar/Scat Mat, etc.) WOULD fix the problem permanently. Really, a self-rewarding behavior is extremely difficult to extinguish. A very food-motivated dog simply won't care about any aversives, he just wants the food.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I just typed this as an edit before I thought to refresh the page: 

"Actually, I sort of take some of that back. My problem with creating theoretical situations in my head ("what if I had a counter surfing dog?") is they're theoretical. My other problem is whereas I absolutely have no problem with people using aversive tools/techniques properly, I don't use the tools myself and I hope I never will. Like... If Soro already had a shock collar on him, at least once a week I'd like to stop him from eating whatever he finds on the ground. In theory (again) I would love to stop him from eating stuff off the ground, even though he is already fantastic if I see the food before he does, and his Drop is pretty good too. But I don't have a shock collar, never intend on buying one, and if he's already eaten the food then we just continue with our walk, no big deal. I guess what I'm trying to say is I can see myself abusing that kind of power if I had the chance to. But because I know that about myself, I don't give myself the chance to. Hope that makes sense."

Sorry, I make a lot of edits. I type, think, and reread stuff. I should just think things through completely before posting  Though part of the problem is I'm still learning and trying to figure out if I have one solid stance on anything...


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Hehe, assuming the ultrasonic device (or even a shock collar/Scat Mat, etc.) WOULD fix the problem permanently. Really, a self-rewarding behavior is extremely difficult to extinguish. A very food-motivated dog simply won't care about any aversives, he just wants the food.



I guess I just haven't experienced a dog like that yet. Maybe one day in the future


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Hehe, assuming the ultrasonic device (or even a shock collar/Scat Mat, etc.) WOULD fix the problem permanently. Really, a self-rewarding behavior is extremely difficult to extinguish. A very food-motivated dog simply won't care about any aversives, he just wants the food.


Pretty sure Jubel falls into that category of food obsessed. We simply use management, gates to the kitchen and don't leave anything within his reach. Never tried any aversives for his food stealing before we got the gates to stop access to the kitchen but I don't think anything short of death would have actually stopped him. Thankfully he respects the gates that in reality he could jump over or forces his way through if he had the thought to do so.

I agree with most of the other posters, having your roommates simply not leave food out on the table isn't that huge of a request. Of course if you can block Pete's access to the table that's easier but not leaving food out isn't a hardship IMO. I lived with roommates in a townhouse during college for 4 years. They had cats and the cats would get into food left out. I adjusted pretty quickly to put things away and never got mad at my roommate over her cat.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I find this comical.
Sorry but if grown adults don't know better than to just put their food up, or put the dog in another room while they're trying to eat or put food away then they deserve this.
To put the dog in another room for 10 minutes, or put your things away is not at all a difficult task. And if they're too lazy to do that, then I feel for them. 

I have to put EVERYTHING away at night before I go to bed. Jewelry, flowers, mail, keys, cords, anything that can be destroyed or considered harmful because when the human's away, the cat will play. Draevyn will get into anything and everything, he steals my stuff and hides it under the couch. So I can either take 5 minutes to put the stuff away and move it all back out the next morning, or I can lose my stuff. That is not at all a hard concept to consider and perform. 

Honestly, no the dog shouldn't be on the counter or the table. No, nobody should have to deal with it. But it is what it is and it won't kill you or your room-mates to just put the dog away for about 5 minutes, put the food away, then let him back out. It won't kill you or your room-mates to not leave food laying out (why are you doing this anyway?). 
Is it a bigger hassle to just put the dog up for a minute/watch him and put food away, or is it a bigger hassle to have food stolen from the table and counter?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

aiw said:


> I have tried kikopups method but Pete is smart enough to know that when I'm not in the room there will be no reward for ignoring the food.


I'm still stuck on ^this^.

If he's "smart enough", that's a great quality to build upon. If it were me I'd find a way to see it through to fruition, absolutely, come hell or highwater! 

Nobody has ever said raising a dog was _easy_. But sometimes, taking the high road is simply the _right_ thing to do. You owe it to yourself, your roommates, and most importantly of course, to Pete.


Sorry if this all sounds so cliche.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL I'll be down here on the low road, getting what I want (not having food stolen off the table).


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

When training has been given a true 100% effort and has failed ... then it's time for management.

When management doesn't suit the roommates "convenience", then it's time for new roommates.


I'm merely wondering if a true 100% effort has actually been given to training, is all.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

If the dog hasn't earned the right to have run of the house, he shouldn't have run of the house.

Personally, I'd be more worried about these supposed insane anxiety issues before I'd start worrying about a missing sandwich.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

TorachiKatashi said:


> If the dog hasn't earned the right to have run of the house, he shouldn't have run of the house.
> 
> Personally, I'd be more worried about these supposed insane anxiety issues before I'd start worrying about a missing sandwich.


If you're curious about Pete's SA you can look in my post history or started threads for details. I'm not sure why you wouldn't believe they exist, don't you yourself have a dog on anxiety medication?

I've found a trainer to get some practical advice. I'm using kikopups methods now myself to build on his self-control. I know a lot of people here won't agree with me, but I don't actually have a problem with careful and compassionate use of aversives. I'm going to trust the trainer but I won't throw out the idea if its put forward.

EDIT: Oops, Hollowheaven, I missed your post. Its impressive that you're able to live that way. I have to admit, if I had to put _everything_ away every night before bed. I wouldn't accept that behaviour either. Just a difference in what we're prepared to live with I guess.

Thanks for the advice everyone.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I wouldn't object as much to the use of mild aversives on a "normal" dog, but this is a dog with anxiety issues. Plus, there's the danger that you could shock/scare him and cause him to fall off/quickly leap off the table -- which is okay for the average cat, but not for a dog. It's unlikely that the aversives will even work when you're not home, especially if he's very food-motivated. Just... choose your trainer really, REALLY carefully. There are way too many bad ones out there.

I just... you figured out that moving the chair removes his access. That solves the issue. I don't understand what you think you have to prove here.

(And if you don't like putting stuff away, don't ever get a cat.  )


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> (And if you don't like putting stuff away, don't ever get a cat.  )


or get a cat like mine who just plain too unmotivated when it come to food.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I just... you figured out that moving the chair removes his access. That solves the issue. I don't understand what you think you have to prove here.
> 
> (And if you don't like putting stuff away, don't ever get a cat.  )


Yes, no cat plans in the immediate future 

Unfortunately we need the chairs daily because of the number of people and the only place to store them is the basement.... So people aren't going to traipse up and down several flights with a chair multiple times a day. What we do now is block off the kitchen when no one is home so he isn't practicing bad behaviour while we're away.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> (And if you don't like putting stuff away, don't ever get a cat.  )


I have nothing new to add -- this just made me laugh. I came home from work at like 7:00 the other night, cooked dinner, we sat down and ate it, and I asked my husband if he could feed the animals since I just fed us. He said no, because he was mad at Atticus (the cat). Atticus is a jerk so I figured he was just being a pest again and so I grumbled and fed them, even though my husband was being dumb. Then I asked "What did Atticus do?" Well it seems Atticus knocked a box of my husband's "toys" (mini war game figurines) off the windowsil and broke some. I said "So you're mad at Atticus because YOU left YOUR toys on the heater where the cat likes to lay, in a box, which you know the cat likes to rub his face on?? That was YOUR fault! Not his." 

We do have an aversive compressed air canister with a horn and a motion sensor for Atticus, who counter surfs for STUPID STUFF that you wouldn't even think a cat would want (avocados anyone?). He also will knock stuff off the counter that he doesn't want, like the time he attempted to poison the dog with a bar of dark chocolate. We don't use the alarm much anymore, since Hamilton alerts us to the cat on the counter now.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

If rigging barriers around the counter didn't work, I'd personally bait the counter with human food intentionally seasoned to taste wretched (but not harmful) to the countersurfer. I dunno if it would work or if it would make me a horrible person, but eh.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

aiw said:


> Yes, no cat plans in the immediate future
> 
> Unfortunately we need the chairs daily because of the number of people and the only place to store them is the basement.... So people aren't going to traipse up and down several flights with a chair multiple times a day. What we do now is block off the kitchen when no one is home so he isn't practicing bad behaviour while we're away.


I meant, why not just move the chair(s) like 4 feet away from the table, or stack them just far away enough from the table when not in use?

To me it sounds like you have two permanent solutions already: 
-block off kitchen
-move chair



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> If rigging barriers around the counter didn't work, I'd personally bait the counter with human food intentionally seasoned to taste wretched (but not harmful) to the countersurfer. I dunno if it would work or if it would make me a horrible person, but eh.


HA! Creative, but I think the dog might just avoid the nasty food but still surf for tasty morsel?


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

aiw said:


> EDIT: Oops, Hollowheaven, I missed your post. Its impressive that you're able to live that way. I have to admit, if I had to put _everything_ away every night before bed. I wouldn't accept that behaviour either. Just a difference in what we're prepared to live with I guess.


And yet, this isn't a situation where you'd have to put everything away. It's just the simple task of not leaving food laying around. 

I'm not sure how to picture your problem here. Maybe I'm imagining it wrong, but in my mind it seems like people are leaving groceries out on the counters and tables and not watching the dog, people are leaving left overs out on the counters and tables and not watching the dog. 
I don't mean this to sound rude, but I've always been taught not to just leave food laying out. When the groceries come in, they get put away. When a meal is finished, the left overs are disposed of or put in the fridge until next time. I thought this was common in all households. Maybe not.
It's not that big of a hindrance to just put food up. Don't leave groceries and food laying around. If you and your room-mates would do this, you wouldn't have to deal with losing your food anymore. And as long as everybody has the attitude of 'well it's not my dog, it's not my problem, I shouldn't have to accommodate the dog' NOTHING productive is going to get done. 
This is such a simple thing to fix: Don't leave food laying around.




> (And if you don't like putting stuff away, don't ever get a cat.)


The thing is... this is the only cat I've ever had that does this. He gets on the table when we're asleep/not looking/out and eats cords, steals mail, chews on the plants, etc. It's irritating, and I feel like I shouldn't have to constantly put the stuff up, but how am I going to stop him? I can't. So I move the stuff.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> And yet, this isn't a situation where you'd have to put everything away. It's just the simple task of not leaving food laying around.
> 
> I'm not sure how to picture your problem here. Maybe I'm imagining it wrong, but in my mind it seems like people are leaving groceries out on the counters and tables and not watching the dog, people are leaving left overs out on the counters and tables and not watching the dog.
> I don't mean this to sound rude, but I've always been taught not to just leave food laying out. When the groceries come in, they get put away. When a meal is finished, the left overs are disposed of or put in the fridge until next time. I thought this was common in all households. Maybe not.
> ...


Well... some things have to be left out on counters, like bananas and tomatoes... but I imagine Pete isn't just going bonkers for bananas and tomatoes! There are certain foods that we don't store in the refrigerator though. 

My cat will scale the pantry to get food down (the pantry is doorless and we can't find a door that is the right size). Last night he found dog treats in my coat pocket and ate them. The Sscat cans work on the counters, but I can't booby trap my entire house! We just do our best to put things in jars and other containers the cat can't open and the dog can't gnaw through when the cat knocks it down!


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

My little one will do the same thing- use the chairs to get on the table. It doesn't really bother me because I don't leave anything up there. But if it did, all I'd need to do would be to push the chairs all the way in.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

LoMD13 said:


> My little one will do the same thing- use the chairs to get on the table. It doesn't really bother me because I don't leave anything up there. But if it did, all I'd need to do would be to push the chairs all the way in.


I used to pull the chairs out and turn them around backwards even.  It did not bother me ... as I only allowed it when I invited it .... I miss it now. 

Leeo ...


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Well, this morning it was my roommates makeup bag that she left on the table and Pete destroyed. No food anywhere... Trainer is coming next week.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I honestly would use positive punishment... I think thats the right one of the four.

Prickly office mat strips on the edges of counters, as far back on the counter as his paws can reach.
Tape Sticky side up on chairs (maybe make a sticky tape mat that attaches on and can come off when someone is sitting in the chair?
Tablecloth so that he cant get leverage to jump up on the table because the cloth will slide off
Cookie pans with spoons on them on the edge of counters, makes a racket when he jumps and knocks them off.

None of this stuff is actually physically painful. All of it is meant to make jumping up on the table/ counters less fun, and hopefully break the habit.

DISCLAIMER: I am not a certified dog trainer, and I have roomates so I completely understand this balance of "they live here too" that can be so hard to achieve with a dog...


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