# Is this Science diet good or bad?



## heather1sell (May 5, 2007)

We recently just rescued a 3 month old choc lab/golden retriever mix. The rescue place had him on the science diet and after asking around, people seemed to think that this was a great dog food. Well he poops at least 5 times a day EVERY single day, sometimes 6. His stool was tested and it was fine. Even my vet said this was a good food for my dog. I am so confused after reading these threads. I want a dog food that I can buy at the local pet store. Is nutro good? There are so many conflicted posts out there that I am more confused now than ever. Any advice would be appreciated! Also when I make a food switch should I just give him half/half for awhile? How long?

Thanks,
heather


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

It is extremely extremely confusing.
If you ask ten different dog owners you will get twelve different answers.  
So first off, keep in mind that vets get a commission for selling S/D so maybe they are being objective, maybe not. Also the big companies sometimes sponsor the shelters. So I do not like being TOO critical, since by donating the food they are keeping dogs alive and freeing up funds for supplies and other projects.
But my opinion is that there is better food out there for the same money.
In general if you can find it in a supermarket it is not very good. The reason is that most of those brands have corn /grain as fillers, and dogs were not meant to eat that.
There are some brands that are referred to as "holistic" (which is a term not defined, so anybody can call themseves that) which are very high priced and which may or may not be worth the money. 
Confused? Sorry  .
OK I feed Nutro Max and mix in some Lamb Meal and Rice. I am not thrilled with Nurto but it seems safe, not overpriced, and the dogs do ok on it. I know there is better stuff out there but i am not sure what so I don't dare switch.
Oh and when you do switch, go 75/25 for a few days, then 50/50, the 25/75, and then you should be good to go.
Good luck!


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## ScareCrow (Mar 9, 2007)

I never put too much thought into dog food until I joined this forum and learned a little. Now I feed Chicken Soup for the Dog Lovers soul. This food isn't very expensive, fits all the criteria that I learned was important from this forum, and best of all I can buy it at the local Orshelyn(spelling) which is a local farm and feed store where I live. Someone had posted a simple test that graded dog food that you were feeding based on the ingredients and such which is what made me switch, the dog food I was feeding scored something like a 17 I think. Does anyone still have that dog food test to rank your dog food?


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## heather1sell (May 5, 2007)

Thanks so much for your help! I think I have decided to go with Canidae and I will buy that ASAP. I found a store that carries it about 10 miles away which isn't too bad. I don't even think our dog likes the taste of the Science Diet. I had no idea it was bad for him, all along I was thinking it was better quality!! Little did I know....

heather


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

It's hard to go wrong with Canidae, though at least one forum member said her dog didn't do well on it.

Chicken Soup is probably as good.

At this point, I'd stay away from almost ANYBODY'S canned food, since most companies farm it out and seem to have little control over what sorts of thickeners go in it.

I certainly wouldn't say that Science Diet is BAD for your dog. It's just that there are better choices out there for about the same cost or even less.

I'm sure CaptBob will be along to post his test list, which is what I used to upgrade to Canidae. Otherwise, I'll chase down a link to it.

If you switch foods, do it gradually by mixing increasing proportions of the new with the old over a couple weeks to avoid possible gastric distress. If you end up with some Science you can't use, don't pitch it. Give it to your local shelter.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Of all the foods I've fed my cats, they do best on Science Diet.

Vets do make a profit on foods they sell, just like they do everything else they sell, like all other doctors or business owners, but it's not as though they make money on someone going to Petco and buying a bag. From what I can gather, the vets can buy the food at cost, so they feed it to their own pets, who do well on it, so they recommend it. 

My own dog did very well on Science Diet, and it's only been in the past month that I've been switching him to Chicken Soup. The main reasons I'm switching is to get a somewhat better food for a better price, and I like the bag sizing better for Chicken Soup. I can only find Science Diet Small Bites in 5 or 40 pound bags. The 5 pounder lasts about a month, and I really don't have room to store 40 pound bag that'd last me around 8 months, nevermind that it wouldn't exactly be fresh after 8 months.

On Chicken Soup, his stool is typically firmer and he goes slightly less frequently (once, _sometimes_ twice, a day vs. twice a day like clockwork) and his coat does seem to be coming in thicker and shinier.


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## Misskiwi67 (Mar 30, 2007)

skunkstripe said:


> So first off, keep in mind that vets get a commission for selling S/D so maybe they are being objective, maybe not.


We do NOT get a commission for selling or recommending Science Diet foods. I'll make the same profit off a bag of SD as I will a bag of california natural.


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

Personally, I think one of the worst offenders at misleading labelling and downright lying is Science Diet. In my opinion, I wouldn't give that to my dogs if it was free.

The fact that vets sell it and people actually believe it is somehow prescription food because of that is horrendously sad.


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## Misskiwi67 (Mar 30, 2007)

AndyVetra said:


> Personally, I think one of the worst offenders at misleading labelling and downright lying is Science Diet. In my opinion, I wouldn't give that to my dogs if it was free.
> 
> The fact that vets sell it and people actually believe it is somehow prescription food because of that is horrendously sad.


There ARE lots of prescription foods that really are prescriptions. They have specific purposes and are scientifically proven to be effective (just like a drug) and because many of them are not formulated for long-term use and therefore they SHOULD be prescription diets.

If you want to talk about mislabeling, I can bring out tons of "holistic" type foods with outrageous and ridiculous claims. There isn't a company out there that isn't guilty...

If you don't like Science Diet, don't feed it, and don't recommend it... but don't spread lies and misinformation due to your own personal bias. I don't spread lies about foods I don't like...


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

Misskiwi67 said:


> There ARE lots of prescription foods that really are prescriptions. They have specific purposes and are scientifically proven to be effective (just like a drug) and because many of them are not formulated for long-term use and therefore they SHOULD be prescription diets.
> 
> If you want to talk about mislabeling, I can bring out tons of "holistic" type foods with outrageous and ridiculous claims. There isn't a company out there that isn't guilty...
> 
> If you don't like Science Diet, don't feed it, and don't recommend it... but don't spread lies and misinformation due to your own personal bias. I don't spread lies about foods I don't like...



I assure you that as an exhibitor at a recent pet show with many thousands of attendees that there were a very large number of people who claimed to be feeding their dogs a prescription food. When pressed on what it was, it was invariably the Science Diet.

I wholeheartedly agree that labelling is scandalous across the entire pet food industry. However, this brand is particularly odious as it cloaks itself in "scientific nutrition" when in fact it is no better than the cheapest foods out there.

I neither lie or spread misinformation. I suggest your accusations would be better aimed at the subject matter of the thread. The thread was started to garner opinions on Science Diet, I volunteered mine. If you think it's great then please convince me.

An example. They claim 27% protein for their large breed puppy formula. In my opinion that should be digestible protein. Here are the actual ingredients:

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Liver Flavor, Animal Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Fish Oil, Flaxseed, Soybean Oil, Iodized Salt, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, vitamins (L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Choline Chloride, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Tryptophan, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), preserved with Mixed Tocopherols and Citric Acid, L-Carnitine, Calcium Carbonate, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

Good for the Vet's pocket book.
Bad for your pet.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

RonE said:


> It's hard to go wrong with Canidae, though at least one forum member said her dog didn't do well on it.
> 
> Chicken Soup is probably as good.
> 
> ...


Actually, Canidae canned is made by them or so I am told......

__________________________
This is a dog food rating system created to help people find a quality food. This is not concrete but to be used as a guide. This was created by Fredalina of the GDR.


Giving Dry Dog Food a Grade: 
Start with a grade of 100: 

For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points 


For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points 

If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points 

If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer’s rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points


If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points 

If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points 

If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points 

If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn’t allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points 

If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn’t allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

If it contains salt, subtract 1 point 

Extra Credit: 

If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points 


If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points 

If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points 

If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points 

If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

If the food contains barley, add 2 points 

If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points 

If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point 

If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point 

For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "turkey" as 2 different sources), add 1 point


If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point



94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D
<70 = F

Authority Harvest Baked / Score 116 A+

Bil-Jac Select / Score 68 F

Canidae / Score 112 A+

Chicken Soup Senior / Score 115 A+

Diamond Maintenance / Score 64 F

Diamond Lamb Meal & Rice / Score 92 B

Diamond Large Breed 60+ Formula / Score 99 A

Natural Balance Ultra Premium / Score 122 A+

Natural Balance Duck and Potato / Score 106 A+

Hund-n-Flocken Adult Pet (lamb) by Solid Gold / Score 93 B

Iams Lamb Meal & Rice Formula Premium / Score 73 D

Innova Pet / Score 114 A+

Innova Evo / Score 114 A+

Kirkland Signature Chicken, Rice, and Vegetables / Score 110 A+

Merrick Grammy Pot Pie/ Score 118 A+

Nutro Natural Choice Large Breed Puppy / Score 87 B

Pet Gold Adult with Lamb & Rice / Score 23 F

ProPlan Natural Turkey & Barley / Score 103 A+

Purina Beneful / Score 17 F

Purina Pet / Score 62 F

Purina Come-n-Get It / Score 16 F

Royal Canin BullPet / Score 100 A+

Royal Canin Natural Blend Adult / Score 106 A+

Sensible Choice Chicken and Rice / Score 97 A

Science Diet Advanced Protein Senior 7+ / Score 63 F

Science Diet for Large Breed Puppies / Score 69 F

Wellness Super5 Mix Chicken / Score 110 A+

Wolf King Adult Pet (bison) by Solid Gold / Score 97 A

Some foods that have all ready been rated:
__________________
"Dogs have given us their absolute all. We are the center of their universe, we are the focus of their love, faith, and trust. They serve us in return for scraps. It is without a doubt the best deal man has ever made" -Roger Caras


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## RufusRockz (Apr 8, 2007)

I've been feeding my beagle pup (5 months) on Science Plan....eek I'm confused now! I didn't think it was so bad!


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Wow, unless I miscalculated, Fromm's got a 123 A. Innova didn't do too bad, either. 

Science Diet is not a good food. Here's what I've told people who've asked me for advice (I'm the "dog nut" of my group of friends): 

If you don't recognize the ingredients, then it's probably not good for your pet. 

For example, could you tell me what "corn gluten" was, off the top of your head? 

Could you tell me why Science Diet has beet pulp in it? 

Does it strike you as odd that it doesn't have any real meat in it, but has meat flavoring? 

If you're REALLY curious, head to the dogfoodproject.com. It's a great website w/ lots of info.


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## Michele68 (May 7, 2007)

Hi
It may be to rich for his system, I feed my rottie Pedigree, I've talked to alot of vets and they always told me, don't feed the most expensive or the cheapest find something in the middle. Can't hurt to try a different kind. You don't want him to dehydrate.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Dehydrate? 

I think that's when a dog doesn't have enough water. I'm pretty sure that doesn't have anything to do with food. 

Also, Pedigree is another one I'd stay away from, especially with the recall. 

Pedigree is mostly corn and corn byproducts. 

In regards to price, often brands like Solid Gold, Timberwolf Organics, etc. tend to equal out to brands like Pedigree in the long run. 

Because those brands are more nutritious, your dog won't have to eat as much, and will also make less waste.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Snowshoe said:


> and will also make less waste.


Since I swtiched Esther from Purina One to Canidae, I've been able to trade in our 12 yard dumpster for a compact little six yard number.

Now we don't have to park the cars on the street.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Michele68 said:


> Hi
> It may be to rich for his system, I feed my rottie Pedigree, I've talked to alot of vets and they always told me, don't feed the most expensive or the cheapest find something in the middle. Can't hurt to try a different kind. You don't want him to dehydrate.


I think what suprises alot of people is that when they compare the price for poor foods like Purina, and Beneful and and Science Diet, to the very good foods liek Canidae, Natural Balance, Innova, etc. Sometimes the better foods are the same or even less money than the junkfoods.



RonE said:


> Since I swtiched Esther from Purina One to Canidae, I've been able to trade in our 12 yard dumpster for a compact little six yard number.
> 
> Now we don't have to park the cars on the street.


I was suprised to notice that when I switched Smokey from Natural Balance, to Canidae, that her poops are smaller too.


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

Just think Bob and Ron that you could probably get rid of the six yarder and settle for a bucket if you added a high grade supplement to the diet!


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Quick little break down of my kibble cost knowlege ( first hand) remember this is all in Canadian funds ( aka funny money as some so hilariously pointed out once)

(3 dogs at the time)
Pedigree- ( yes I was a horrible mommy) 4 bags/ month @$35/bag =$140.00 (before all the lovely canadian taxes are added)

Orijen-, 4 dogs now @ 1/2 bag in a week. Would equal to 2 bags per month, @ $57/bag = $114.00 a month.

So, while the savings arent out of this world, its amazing how a much higher quality food, costing more upfront worked out for me being cheaper to feed more dogs... 
Boggle your mind??

ETA: Its quite simple, they do require much less to get better nutrition, and WAY less comes out the other end.

While I know this thread wasnt really about Pedigree vs Orijen, but it does flow along with some posts so I added it.

Science Diet is a crock. Plain and simple, as much of a crock as "breed specific formulas" I mean really, what does one arthitic dog need from Science Diet that a well informed owner couldnt add into a high quality grain free kibble??? 
I really despise the marketing for "prescription" foods, my friends dog had recurring yeast infections the vet put her dog on Kangaroo meat kibble, sure the infections stopped, but when I sent her some facts and links she switched to a duck formula food and low and behold... no yeast infections still... and at a fraction of the price.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Although Riley eats primarily raw, he does get some Timberwolf Organics kibble--a minimal amount. When you feed a quality food your dog doesn't have to eat as much and yes, RonE, the poops are much more efficient, its a beautiful thing. I didn't know any better with my first dog: she was originally on Science Diet and then they switched her to one of the Hill's Prescription Diets--she did live to be 13 but had I known then what I know now, I would have not fed her that garbage and she probably would have lived longer.....


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

Why is less poo good? I mean I can see that if there is a lot of filler that undigested filler goes in one end and out the other. But it seems to me that there comes a point where it IS not good, after all, the stool is supposed to express the anal glands, right?

And FYI if you haven't seen this, I think it is a hoot. Nutro is ADVERTISING that their kibble has the lowest stool volume! 
http://www.ultraholistic.com/stool.shtml
(How'd you like to that THAT job?  )


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

skunkstripe said:


> Why is less poo good? I mean I can see that if there is a lot of filler that undigested filler goes in one end and out the other. But it seems to me that there comes a point where it IS not good, after all, the stool is supposed to express the anal glands, right?
> 
> And FYI if you haven't seen this, I think it is a hoot. Nutro is ADVERTISING that their kibble has the lowest stool volume!
> http://www.ultraholistic.com/stool.shtml
> (How'd you like to that THAT job?  )



 

The point being that like us, if we obtain sufficient nutrients from the food we're eating, we are digesting more efficiently, eating less and producing less waste product. There is a reason that we can eat McDonalds or bad Chinese all day and still be hungry - it isn't satisfying nutritionally.

For dogs, no matter how good the commercial food is, it cannot have live enzymes within it or it would digest itself on the shelf unless it was refrigerated.

Dogs rely biologically on what they eat to supplement their enzymes as they don't produce a lot. This is why a Coyote will eat the innards of a rabbit and the crows will eat the majority of the flesh - the Coyote takes in the rabbit's own enzymes.

Therefore, even if feeding Canidae or other better food, dogs still benefit from the addition of a good live enzyme supplement as it will maximize the nutrition they garnish from it. The same holds true for Raw diets unless it truly is the perfect mix of animal innards and other foods to ensure full nutrition. This is astonishingly difficult to do on a daily basis.

A dog that is full through good nutrition will poop less and the poop will be more socially friendly as the food is passing through their systems more quickly. A great deal of the long-term problems of bad nutrition for dogs is that they eat food that stays in their systems way too long to try to give their bodies a chance to digest it. This leads the food putrifying and toxins leaking into bowels which leads to many ailments.

The long and the short would be to ensure your dog is not eating foods that are on the well-documented "crap" list from this wonderful forum of knowledge and experience and at least entertain the idea that a daily supplement that aids digestion and ensures the supplementation of essential nutrients could be a good idea.


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

AndyVetra I reqally appreciate your heartfelt and detailed answer, really!
But I fear I was not clear with my question. I'll do my best to state it more clearly.

It is not about the "crap list"- I have been around the block several times as far as dog food goes. I hve an opinion but am not a "dog food fetishist".

And I am not concerned about toxins that enter the dog's organism through the bowel walls. Dogs have short digestive tracts and can consume carrion. They are also practically immuine to salmonella-unlike humans.

My concern is that we are glorifying conditions that more or less aproximate constipation, and that can't be right.


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

skunkstripe said:


> My concern is that we are glorifying conditions that more or less aproximate constipation, and that can't be right.



How's that? I'm perhaps missing a point here. Apologies if so. Less poop doesn't mean constipation. I would say, quite the opposite.

Edit to say that indeed they do have relatively short digestive tracts, but that does not prevent food remaining longer in their systems than it should whilst they "play catch up" with enzyme production.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

AndyVetra said:


> The point being that like us, if we obtain sufficient nutrients from the food we're eating, we are digesting more efficiently, eating less and producing less waste product. There is a reason that we can eat McDonalds or bad Chinese all day and still be hungry - it isn't satisfying nutritionally.
> 
> For dogs, no matter how good the commercial food is, it cannot have live enzymes within it or it would digest itself on the shelf unless it was refrigerated.


Canidae says that it has* Digestive Enzyme*s in it http://www.canidae.com/dogs/all_life_stages/dry.html


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

Captbob said:


> Canidae says that it has* Digestive Enzyme*s in it http://www.canidae.com/dogs/all_life_stages/dry.html



Not knocking Canidae at all as a food and will contact them tomorrow for specific info (they're closed at the moment). I do not see how it is possible to have live enzymes on the food and have any shelf life at all. I'll post up what I find out from them and an analysis from a Veterinarian.

Thanks for putting that up.

Having re-read their ingredients, the only enzyme I see is cellulase which breaks down cellulose into sugars.

In reality, a dog has/needs dozens of live enzymes to break down the various components of food- enzymes for protein digestion for example. Cellulase is a fairly low economic impact addition.

I won't jump to conclusions that cellulase is the only one in this food, but it seems likely as otherwise it would require refrigeration.

Cheers,

Andy


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## RufusRockz (Apr 8, 2007)

Right, I'm dumping Hill's Science rubbish. 

Where can I get Canidae in the UK?

What's the best way to change the diet, introduce the new food slowly?


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

RufusRockz if you can't get Canidae in the UK you might want to look for Burns. I have no experience with it but my impression is that it might be what you are looking for.
Interesting discussion about the enzymes, thank you.
Another concern I have about the "too little poop" issue is that the anal glands will not be properly expressed. I have heard of people dumping these "holistic" (sic) brands after finding out that they were not only paying for overpriced hype, their dogs needed to have their anal glands expressed because of insufficient stool / stool pressure to express them naturally.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

My own experience (admitedly limited to only one dog with scent gland problems) is that it's not so much the volume of poop as the firmness that helps express those glands.

We should not be having this conversation before breakfast.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

AndyVetra said:


> Not knocking Canidae at all as a food and will contact them tomorrow for specific info (they're closed at the moment). I do not see how it is possible to have live enzymes on the food and have any shelf life at all. I'll post up what I find out from them and an analysis from a Veterinarian.
> 
> Thanks for putting that up.
> 
> ...


Let us know what you find out, I would be interested in that...



AndyVetra said:


> How's that? I'm perhaps missing a point here. Apologies if so. Less poop doesn't mean constipation. I would say, quite the opposite.
> 
> Edit to say that indeed they do have relatively short digestive tracts, but that does not prevent food remaining longer in their systems than it should whilst they "play catch up" with enzyme production.


I have given this some thought, and imagine that the food that has more poop, is probably fiber heavy, or has more undigestable ingredients. There is one dry food, that has almost all protein and therefore must have very little fiber. I would think that this probably wouldn't be that good for the dog and would lead to constipation, and possible anal gland problems. I think that there has to be a good balance , and most of the good foods probably are close to that balance.


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

Captbob said:


> Let us know what you find out, I would be interested in that...
> 
> 
> 
> I have given this some thought, and imagine that the food that has more poop, is probably fiber heavy, or has more undigestable ingredients. There is one dry food, that has almost all protein and therefore must have very little fiber. I would think that this probably wouldn't be that good for the dog and would lead to constipation, and possible anal gland problems. I think that there has to be a good balance , and most of the good foods probably are close to that balance.



I also gave it thought. The ingredient "beet pulp" is added to many foods. This absorbs many times its own weight in water and seems specifically added as a bulking agent and to "improve poop" in terms of its density. Again a zero function addition for a marketing "benefit" rather than an actual benefit.

As far as constipation goes, the short tract of canines does mean that fiber is not anywhere near as important for dogs as humans. What does have an impact is the fact that the dog's system will slow the movement of food through the system to allow the dog to try to catch up with enzyme production. This produces all kinds of negative consequences, one of which would likely be constipation.

Bottom line - the more efficient the digestion, the better every aspect of the dog's system will work.



Captbob said:


> Let us know what you find out, I would be interested in that...



OK CaptBob, the lady at Canidae was very helpful. Canidae contains cellulase in that formula. There are no other "...ase" enzymes. As suspected, there cannot be those enzymes in the product, otherwise it would self-digest. She said that it is in fact an excellent idea to supplement Canidae in order to maximize the nutrition from it.

I have a couple of other questions that she could not answer and is passing on to the owner, who will get back to me, she thought, within 24 hours.

I'll keep you posted.

Cheers,

Andy


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

AndyVetra, I am sooo glad to see you write that about dried beet pulp, I have never liked that ingredient and have told people to steer clear of dog food with that in it because it really is a filler and has no real benefit. Additionally, it can contribute to allergies in dogs that are prone to such: ear infections, hot spots, etc.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> AndyVetra, I am sooo glad to see you write that about dried beet pulp, I have never liked that ingredient and have told people to steer clear of dog food with that in it because it really is a filler and has no real benefit. Additionally, it can contribute to allergies in dogs that are prone to such: ear infections, hot spots, etc.


This is a quote from the Dog Food Project. She is pretty hard on indentifying bad ingredients and here is what she has to say about Beet Pulp

Fiber

Fiber is the part of carbohydrates that can not be digested by the dog. Depending on nutritional goals, varying levels of dietary fiber with different properties are necessary to make a highly processed food source like commercial kibble "work", since a dog's digestive tract is not designed to process a diet with such high levels of carbohydrates - most commercial dry foods contain 40-50%, low quality ones even more.

* Depending on the inclusion of ingredients that are naturally high in fiber (e.g. brown rice, oats, certain fruits or vegetables), a food may or may not include specific, isolated types of fiber.
_ * Beet Pulp, the isolated fibrous material from sugar beets, is another ingredient that has an undeservedly bad reputation. It is a very gentle, beneficial source of fiber that is not only generally very well tolerated, but also has specific properties that make it suitable as a source of nutrition for the beneficial bacteria that reside in the intestinal tract. The sugar is almost completely removed, what is left in the pulp is only about 1/5 the amount of sugar that you would find in a serving of carrots of equal size. It is also colorless and does not turn a dog's coat turn red, like urban legends claim. The argument that beet pulp is an "unnatural" ingredient is often brought up, but people who present this complaint seem to forget that it is also not natural for dogs to eat highly processed commercial products with a carb content of generally 40% and more, and a moisture content of only around 10% as opposed to a more natural 60-70%. Added fiber is required to make such formulations work for the pets who eat a dry diet._


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=betterproducts


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

The 6th ingredient is beet pulp. Beet pulp is filler and a controversial ingredient – it is a by-product, being dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. It is a controversial ingredient in dog food, claimed by some manufacturers to be a good source of fibre, and derided by others as an ingredient added to slow down the transition of rancid animal fats and causing stress to kidney and liver in the process. We note that beet pulp is an ingredient that commonly causes problems for dogs, including allergies and ear infections, and prefer not to see it used in dog food. There are less controversial products around if additional fibre is required.

This is from www.dogfoodanalysis.com

*Beet Pulp (Sugar) - CONTROVERSIAL

AAFCO - Beet Pulp is the dried residue from sugar beets which has been cleaned and extracted in the process of manufacturing sugar. 
Natura uses it because - "it as a good source of fiber and a stool hardener". However, it is not found in their Innova or California Natural products. 
Solid Gold doesn't use it because they believe it is: "Added to pet food to slow down the transition of rancid animal fats (think toxic waste). This holds the waste in. Kidneys and liver work overtime. Dogs may chew their lower backs. Feet may swell, so the dogs lick their feet. Sugar is a contributing factor to ear infections and cataracts". 
http://www.iei.net/~ebreeden/kibble.html

As the "mother" of a dog who had really bad ear infections as a pup, I chose to stay away from it and so far, so good. (He had come to me on Iams which had dried beet pulp in it and I switched him and things have been good for the past 7 months)


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

I am of the thought that it is at best a needless addition done to market the "healthy poop". It would not surprise me if there were ill effects from it.

Something that is always forgotten too is that proper hydration is essential for nutrient absorption. A well hydrated dog will certainly be way less likely to be constipated.

We have been asked to evaluate a new product that provides constant clean water that never has to be cleaned in any way through the process it uses. I'll keep you posted on how that turns out as if it does what is claimed, it will be revolutionary in that it gets rid of all contaminants and you never have to clean or re-fill it so that the dog will have a constant supply of fresh, clean water.


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## DBZ (Apr 21, 2007)

Please straighten something out for me.

Does Canidae contain beet pulp? I don't see it listed on the bag. I don't see it listed on their web-site.

I'm confused? You're talking about Canidae and then beet pulp is brought into the conversation. Where did that come from? Please clarify. 

I recently switched to Canidae mostly inpart to info gathered here and other sources. I thought I was being pretty thorough. Hope I didn't jump the gun getting a 40# bag for a 40# dog. 

I'm feeding about 1 1/2 cups per day divided into two feedings. The dog also gets a few training treats daily consisting of Bil Jac liver and peanut butter treats. I also use nickel sized pieces of hot dog on ocassion. Also beef and chicken as available. I just bought a beef stick roll at Petsmart to dice up into small pieces. It requires refrigeration after opening. I haven't opened this yet.

The dog is 10 y/o appears healthy and is never sick. Is there a particular enzyme or supplement I'm supposed to be adding? My Vet. has never mentioned that I should be adding anything to supplement the kibble and treats I'm feeding.

My dog has the energy and enthusiasm of a puppy! 

Thanks for the help,

DBZ


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## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

DBZ said:


> Please straighten something out for me.
> 
> Does Canidae contain beet pulp? I don't see it listed on the bag. I don't see it listed on their web-site.
> 
> ...


It was the Science Diet food referred to that has the beet pulp. Many others do too. Canidae is good pet food.

As far as supplements go, it feels awkward for me to talk about the merits of the supplement I represent - Vetraceuticals, as doing so implies "selling". Suffice it to say, I have explored various supplements and hand on heart there is nothing that compares to Vetraceuticals which is why I now not only have my dogs on the product, but also represent it. I would be happy to talk via PM or email more on this topic if you'd like.

In reality and truth, vets receive little to zero instruction on nutrition, which is incredible when you realise it is in fact more difficult and involved to become a vet than a doctor. Veterinary practices do make a large portion of their income from the treatment of ailments that are the result of poor nutrition.

This is no surprise though as human medicine is almost entirely based on cures rather than prevention. If the same focus was given to nutrition education, quitting smoking, etc., there would be vastly reduced wait times at urgent care facilities and hospitals.

Humans need to look to find good supplementation to ensure good nutrition to keep themselves out of Doctors surgeries. It's even more important for our pets to receive good supplementation as their food choices are way inferior to ours as humans. Nutrition is the foundation of health and prevention of disease.

Whether or not you chose to explore using Vetraceuticals, I would urge you to explore the principles and reasoning behind providing supplementation in addition to good food for your dog(s) and the merits of one supplement over another. It really is the most inexpensive health insurance you can buy.


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## MikeV (May 11, 2007)

My opinion after researching this question is that Science Diet and many others are garbage! I feed my dog Canidae as it is superior in every way to anything Science Diet, Iams, Eukanuba, and others can make.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Andy- You may be interested in checking out Nature's Logic. It has 5 different digestive enzymes.

This is from their chicken formula:

Enzymes
Protease (Ananas Comosus ) 168.4 Tyrosine units /min /cup 
Amylase (Aspergillus Oryzae) 0.43 dextrinized starch units / min / cup
Lipase (Aspergillus Niger) 2.07 µmol fatty acid / min / cup 
Cellulase (Trichoderma Longibrachtium) 8.91 µg glucose / min / cup 
Bromelain (Ananas Comosus) 891 µg tyrosine / min / cup

Ingredients:
Chicken Meal, Millet, Chicken Fat, Montmorillonite, Brewer’s Yeast, Flaxseed, Dried Egg Product, Spray Dried Chicken Liver, Pumpkin Seed, Animal Plasma, Kelp, Natural Flavor, Cottage Cheese, Suncured Alfalfa Meal, Egg Shell, Avocado, Chicory Root, Tomato Powder, Almonds, Spray Dried Cod Liver Oil, Apple Powder, Blueberry, Apricots, Carrots, Pumpkin, Cranberry, Broccoli, Spinach, Parsley, Artichoke, Rosemary, Fermentation Products (Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Lactobacillus Casei Fermentation Product, Bifidobacterium Bifidium Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Streptococcus Faecium Fermentation Product Dehydrated, Lactobacillus Sporogenes Fermentation Product Dehydrated), Enzymes (Amylase, Protease, Lipase, Cellulase, Bromelain), Mixed Tocopherols.

http://natureslogic.com/products/dp_dry_chi.html


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