# corn/filler question- kibbles n bits



## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

Tonight I went to the store to get Faith some kibble. (walmart) and i for the first time looked at the ingredients. Most if not All had corn in them as the first few ingredients. Im not just talking XYZcornABC, im saying Corn, Corn meal, XYZ, corn.. kind of gross really. So I picked up Kibbles N Bits Wholesome Medley. It only has 1 corn ingredient. Is that good or still bad for Faith?

I know its not 5 or 6 star food, but is it at least some what healthy?

ETA: thanks everyone. Im going to finish out this bag and then switch to either a better kibble or home cooked


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Definitely not something I would choose to feed my dogs. Walmart generally doesn't carry ...um.... much of anything good in the pet department. You should check out a local feed store to see what they have. Usually they will have some of the higher end kibbles, and, will also be able to order you different brands.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

Well i actually went next door to a better pet store. They had chicken soup, etc brands that are top rated... however i suffered serious sticker shock and went next door to walmart in search of a at least semi healthy food. This is the healthiest food they had as in my 1st post i stated. I agree with you that they hardly have much of anything.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Generally, though, you have to feed less of the high quality stuff and more of the low, so the cost tends to balance out in the end.

What is "animal digest"? It sounds hideous, lol.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> Tonight I went to the store to get Faith some kibble. (walmart) and i for the first time looked at the ingredients. Most if not All had corn in them as the first few ingredients. Im not just talking XYZcornABC, im saying Corn, Corn meal, XYZ, corn.. kind of gross really. So I picked up Kibbles N Bits Wholesome Medley. It only has 1 corn ingredient. Is that good or still bad for Faith?
> 
> List of ingredients:
> whole grain corn, poultry meal, soybean meal, beef fat, brown rice
> ...


I had emailed the company a while ago and asked them why they had propylene glycol and hydrochloric acid in Kibbles n Bits. The rep replied that propylene glycol is okay in certain amounts for humans and dogs. Nothing about the hydrochloric acid. PG supposedly increases the sweetness of a food. My friend told me they put hydrochloric acid in pills - I guess it depends on the concentration. Still, I don't see the necessity in dog food. I would stay far away. Yes the foods at an independent store may be more expensive but you'll saveon vet bills and you may not have to feed as much to give your dog the nutrition he needs.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> Generally, though, you have to feed less of the high quality stuff and more of the low, so the cost tends to balance out in the end.
> 
> What is "animal digest"? It sounds hideous, lol.


Next to Animal Digest it says (Source of Chicken Flavor) so im not sure. 
~~~
It was over $20 for any of the high end foods at the better pet store for smaller bags than i got. Even for wet food it was small cans for over $1 a can.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Dogs shouldn't get a diet consisting mostly of corn. DOgs main diet should be meat. at the VERY least yoyu should get a food with a named meat (pork beef chiken lamb) in the first ingredient, even Iams has that.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

propylene glycol-


> A colorless viscous hygroscopic liquid, CH3CHOHCH2OH, used in antifreeze solutions, in hydraulic fluids, and as a solvent.
> 
> Used as humectant in semi-moist kibble to keep it from drying out. May be toxic if consumed in large amounts, and should definitely not be an ingredient in a food an animal will eat daily for weeks, months or even years of its life. In countries of the European Union, propylene glycol is not cleared as a general-purpose food grade product or direct food additive.


Animal digest -


> AAFCO: A material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and undecomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed. If it bears a name descriptive of its kind or flavor(s), it must correspond thereto.
> 
> A cooked-down broth made from unspecified parts of unspecified animals. The animals used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination. Any kind of animal can be included: "4-D animals" (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on.


http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients

I'd feed Iams before this kibble honestly.


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## sassykzt (Oct 25, 2009)

Please know that dogs are carnivores not omnivores like us. Dogs thrive on protein. Look for foods that are high in protein ( actual meat /fish or meals but not buy products), rather than the typical high-carbohydrate diets that are more commonly available. Dogs have little nutritional need for carbohydrates; they are used in dog food mostly as an inexpensive source of calories (grains are also used to supply low-quality protein in some foods), and to help bind dry food together into kibble.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

This is also listed in the ingreedence "_caramel color, yellow 5, yellow 6, red 40, blue 1, blue 2, "_

This is what causes what I like to refer to as "technicolor Poo"....my foster pug came to me eating a similar kibble and the fist time I saw him poop I was a little shocked 

If you have to go with a grocery store brand due to buget....you may want to look into Purina Pro Plan...I have see some people on this board that use that with good results.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

In the real world, many dogs do very well on high corn content foods. What have you been feeding her and for how long? How healthy is she? How does your results square with what you are reading here and elsewhere? Yes most of the common brands of dog food contain at least some corn. Iams, a well proven food, has corn as the third and 5 ingredients. Do you really think people would continue to buy it if their dogs were doing poorly? I have had dogs eating it and the no better though of Pro Plan, out in public all the time. The only negative comments I ever get on their appearance is how skinny they are. Not everybody understands lean is healthy. I see lots of other people, not in service dog programs, with good looking dogs. When I talk to other people about dogs, they seldom bring up the subject of food. 

I don't need a link to to some web page to tell me dogs do well on the common brands. You would think that if they do so much better on premium, home made, raw, whatever, that I would run into people with dogs that looked in better shape than the ones I have fed Purina, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Iams, and Purina 1. I do get out away other people in the service dog programs. Likely the people I see in obedience class, 4-H, and even the ones that care enough to bring their dogs to pet friendly festivals are better dog owners that would have better looking dogs if more expensive foods made a real difference. I even spent a weekend in a booth at a large conformation show. 

It is like Aristotle and Galileo. Aristotle though about it, and declared heavier objects fall faster then light ones. For most of the next 2000 years, educated people knew that. Then at the dawn of modern science, Galileo lugged the large and small balls up the the tower of Pisa, and dropped them off. They hadn't read Aristotle, and both hit the ground at the same time. I am afraid the dog world is full of thinkers. 

If your dog is doing well on Kibbles and Bits, relax and continue it. I think the relax part may be both difficult and important. If you let what you read here lead you to doubt what you are feeding, your dog will sense your stress. You can worry your dog sick. Your dog can read your every emotion. If you let clever marketing get to you, you will pass it on to your dog.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

*Sigh*.....


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Oh good another rant.. Do poorer quality foods pay you to push them endlessly?


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Labsnothers said:


> In the real world, many dogs do very well on high corn content foods. What have you been feeding her and for how long? How healthy is she? How does your results square with what you are reading here and elsewhere? Yes most of the common brands of dog food contain at least some corn. Iams, a well proven food, has corn as the third and 5 ingredients. Do you really think people would continue to buy it if their dogs were doing poorly? I have had dogs eating it and the no better though of Pro Plan, out in public all the time. The only negative comments I ever get on their appearance is how skinny they are. Not everybody understands lean is healthy. I see lots of other people, not in service dog programs, with good looking dogs. When I talk to other people about dogs, they seldom bring up the subject of food.
> 
> I don't need a link to to some web page to tell me dogs do well on the common brands. You would think that if they do so much better on premium, home made, raw, whatever, that I would run into people with dogs that looked in better shape than the ones I have fed Purina, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Iams, and Purina 1. I do get out away other people in the service dog programs. Likely the people I see in obedience class, 4-H, and even the ones that care enough to bring their dogs to pet friendly festivals are better dog owners that would have better looking dogs if more expensive foods made a real difference. I even spent a weekend in a booth at a large conformation show.
> 
> ...


Blah, blah, blah! If anyone believes in clever marketing, it is you! either that or you work for one of poorer quality dog food companies. Personally, I don't care what you or anyone else chooses to feed but when someone asks about quality and is told the TRUTH, that dogs are carnivores created and designed to live primarily on meat, there is no reason to spiel out your propaganda once again.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Labsnothers said:


> It is like Aristotle and Galileo. Aristotle though about it, and declared heavier objects fall faster then light ones. For most of the next 2000 years, educated people knew that. Then at the dawn of modern science, Galileo lugged the large and small balls up the the tower of Pisa, and dropped them off. They hadn't read Aristotle, and both hit the ground at the same time. I am afraid the dog world is full of thinkers.


Your analogy does not support your argument. A few decades ago, Kibbles'n'Bits was what educated people fed their dogs. Now, like Galileo, we know better. Why do you keep preaching Aristotle?

A vast majority of dog owners haven't got a clue about canine nutrition. They believe that, if it is being sold to them, it must be okay to feed it. And why shouldn't they? Who would suspect that the dog food shown in such a positive light on tv commercials and sold on the shelves in the grocery store would be full of "'4-D animals' (dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter), goats, pigs, horses, rats, misc. roadkill, animals euthanized at shelters, restaurant and supermarket refuse and so on."

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

There are grocery store dog foods that don't have corn as the FIRST ingredient. At the very least try one of those. Keep in mind, though, that (as I said before) you will feed less of a high quality food, thereby making a bag last longer, thereby averaging the higher initial cost over the course of the bag.

If you're confused, do as Labsnothers suggests...look at your dog. Splurge on enough of a premium dog food to feed for a month. At the end of the month, evaluate the dog. No change in stools, coat, energy level, or shedding? Go back to the grocery store brand with a clear conscience!


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

I guess it just bothers me a bit when I see someone tooting the horn of a food that contains things that are proven to be bad for humans and animals..propylene glycol, hydrochloric acid, artificial colors and preservatives.. I mean, feed it to your dogs if you want to, but don't try to convince anyone that it's something they should be feeding their dogs. It's common sense. I'm not arguing about corn vs meat or what kind of meat or where it comes from, just that this food contains things that are -not- in any way GOOD to have in one's diet, canine or human. Your dog might do well on a corn based food, and that's fine. But why anyone would knowingly feed these toxins to their dogs by choice is beyond me.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> In the real world, many dogs do very well on high corn content foods. What have you been feeding her and for how long? How healthy is she? How does your results square with what you are reading here and elsewhere? Yes most of the common brands of dog food contain at least some corn. Iams, a well proven food, has corn as the third and 5 ingredients. Do you really think people would continue to buy it if their dogs were doing poorly? I have had dogs eating it and the no better though of Pro Plan, out in public all the time. The only negative comments I ever get on their appearance is how skinny they are. Not everybody understands lean is healthy. I see lots of other people, not in service dog programs, with good looking dogs. When I talk to other people about dogs, they seldom bring up the subject of food.
> 
> I don't need a link to to some web page to tell me dogs do well on the common brands. You would think that if they do so much better on premium, home made, raw, whatever, that I would run into people with dogs that looked in better shape than the ones I have fed Purina, Pro Plan, Eukanuba, Iams, and Purina 1. I do get out away other people in the service dog programs. Likely the people I see in obedience class, 4-H, and even the ones that care enough to bring their dogs to pet friendly festivals are better dog owners that would have better looking dogs if more expensive foods made a real difference. I even spent a weekend in a booth at a large conformation show.
> 
> ...


That made absolutely no sense. "_I am afraid the dog world is full of thinkers_". Are you telling us to buy blindly and not think about what is going into our dog's diet because modern day Science has got it figured out? 

I may get banned for this but you deserve to be told that your useless blathering is getting more incoherent with every post. You're drawing from angles that don't even make any sense just to push some crazy idea that low-quality pet food is perfectly acceptable. Regardless of whether grains or corn are acceptable in a dog's diet, your persistent disregard and slandering of any authority other than yourself is disrespectful. You rubbish everyone else's opinion but your own. 

You are exactly the reason why consumers still feed their dogs utter garbage. It's fine if you want to hurt your own dogs, but please don't dispense advice to people who are actually seeking to find something better for _their_ dogs. 

FaithFurMom09: Sorry to hijack your thread. Back to the topic - I thought you were going to start a homecook diet for your puppy? You're better off doing that than feeding Kibble n' Bits.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

I am still looking up info on homecooking, but she ran out of food today so i had to get something until i figure it all out. I dont want to ruffle feathers, but its REALLY confusing on here when it comes to dog food. I thought i was feeding her the right foods, i have never seen any problems due to it, my family all fed their dogs low grade foods and they did ok. I never would of thought until coming here that those low quality foods werent good. I am still learning all of this info and its really confusing with calories, corn, meats, etc. I want to feed Faith the best I can whatever that may be. She has had quite a few brands of food, none high quality and i need to find something that works for her and stick with it. I thought I did really well today getting her this food, but I guess next time I need to try a little harder. I just am super confused about it all. 
For reference:
Faith has had Bil Jac (not frozen), Kroger brand, PuppyChow, Ol'Roy, I want to say the brand from Sams club or another brand but i cant honestly remember. Thats all in 6mo shes been born. July 9th she weighed 12lb and as of about a week ago she weighed 25/26lbs- thats about 4.5lbs a month on low quality food. I have no idea if thats good or not for weight gain, but i know its not good to keep switching her food. I know you all want to help and Im not downing anyone, but it can get super confusing when it comes to food on here. I hope i didnt upset anyone or offend anyone by posting this, I just wanted to explain things. I cant return the food now and now i know for next time.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main
http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf
http://www.dogaware.com/

I would read through these websites. They will give you the knowledge to make your own decisions the next time you go shopping. I know it can be confusing to try to piece together the little tidbits you learn on the forum. These three sites are all written either by vets or nutritionists.


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## ZerotheHero3 (Oct 5, 2009)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> my family all fed their dogs low grade foods and they did ok.


My parents fed one of my dogs Iams for 13 years. He has Addison's Disease, Diabetes, Cancer... oh the list goes on. After teaching them the ways of the dog food world, I am happy to say he is now eating Blue Wilderness. He hasn't been this alert and energetic in years.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=main
> http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf
> http://www.dogaware.com/
> 
> I would read through these websites. They will give you the knowledge to make your own decisions the next time you go shopping. I know it can be confusing to try to piece together the little tidbits you learn on the forum. These three sites are all written either by vets or nutritionists.


thank you 



ZerotheHero3 said:


> My parents fed one of my dogs Iams for 13 years. He has Addison's Disease, Diabetes, Cancer... oh the list goes on. After teaching them the ways of the dog food world, I am happy to say he is now eating Blue Wilderness. He hasn't been this alert and energetic in years.


Yeah thats why i said they did ok. My mutt dog Scruffy passed away around 12 of a Tumor on her stomach- quite suddenly and then our chihuahua Pedro passed away around 14 due to renal failure-again quite suddenly. Other that that they had no health issues, but i do know my parents didnt take either to the vet like they should of.


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

Binkalette said:


> I guess it just bothers me a bit when I see someone tooting the horn of a food that contains things that are proven to be bad for humans and animals..propylene glycol, hydrochloric acid, artificial colors and preservatives.. I mean, feed it to your dogs if you want to, but don't try to convince anyone that it's something they should be feeding their dogs. It's common sense. I'm not arguing about corn vs meat or what kind of meat or where it comes from, just that this food contains things that are -not- in any way GOOD to have in one's diet, canine or human. Your dog might do well on a corn based food, and that's fine. But why anyone would knowingly feed these toxins to their dogs by choice is beyond me.


It is getting bothersome, isn't it?


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> It is like Aristotle and Galileo. Aristotle though about it, and declared heavier objects fall faster then light ones. For most of the next 2000 years, educated people knew that. Then at the dawn of modern science, Galileo lugged the large and small balls up the the tower of Pisa, and dropped them off. They hadn't read Aristotle, and both hit the ground at the same time. I am afraid the dog world is full of thinkers.



His cunning analogy just proved our point...


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Can we please ban Labsnothers from the "Dog Food" section??

Oh sorry.. Please try to spend a few more bucks on some better food for your dog. I'm just trying to help. The idea of finding a real meat (not meal or by-product) as the first ingredient would be best.



Labsnothers said:


> I am afraid the dog world is full of thinkers.


Apparently not. You don't even know what "do well" means other than "it's still alive"


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## KarliMom (Jan 7, 2009)

Diamond naturals is around 18 dollars for a large bag that's less than you would pay for some of the store ones .

Each formula is corn–free, soy–free and wheat–free.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Diamond Naturals is pretty good and inexpensive. If you can't find it (check feed stores and their website), Member's Mark Exceed (from Sam's Club) and/or Purina ONE would be my picks if I absolutely had to go with something cheaper. 

What was the feed store you went to charging for Chicken Soup?


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Diamond Naturals is pretty good and inexpensive. If you can't find it (check feed stores and their website), Member's Mark Exceed (from Sam's Club) and/or Purina ONE would be my picks if I absolutely had to go with something cheaper.
> 
> What was the feed store you went to charging for Chicken Soup?


Thanks. I went to Jacks Aquarium and Pets. According to Chicken Soups site, they sell it there or Jungle Jims.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I was just wondering what they charge for it. I pay, after taxes, about $35 for a 35-pound bag, so around a dollar a pound. Diamond Naturals is, depending on the flavor (beef is cheaper for some reason), about $25 for a 40-pound bag. Just wondering what they charge in other areas.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I was just wondering what they charge for it. I pay, after taxes, about $35 for a 35-pound bag, so around a dollar a pound. Diamond Naturals is, depending on the flavor (beef is cheaper for some reason), about $25 for a 40-pound bag. Just wondering what they charge in other areas.


It was around $30, most of the foods at Jacks were over $20 for any size bag. I didnt go to Jungle Jims so It may be cheaper there.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I even spent a weekend in a booth at a large conformation show.


Was it a booth promoting Nestlé Purina Petcare Company products, The Iams Company products (Iams, Eukanuba), or Colgate-Palmolive's Hill’s Science Diet products?

I'm not asking merely to insult. The first time I started to wonder about this and asked on here, I assumed that the answer was probably no.

Over time, in view of the tireless efforts labsnothers has made to post the same information on virtually every single dog food thread, and especially in light of the posts labsnothers has made on the threads below, I have come to suspect that s/he may actually work for one of those companies, or possibly for Menu Foods, who manufacturers the pet foods that are sold under more than 50 brands.

These threads have bolstered my suspicions:
- The fish oil thread (Where s/he made statements about boiling fish oil all day long, working in a factory and as a chemist, and statements of expertise in the extrusion process.)
- The Beneful thread
- The help choosing a food thread
- The food questions thread
- The Kirkland puppy food thread.

There is, of course, room for doubt. S/he may not work in the pet food industry. But I think that it is a possibility. I'm not just posting this to be inflammatory; I'm posting it because I'm concerned, and I think it's worth considering.



FaithFurMom09 said:


> It was around $30, most of the foods at Jacks were over $20 for any size bag. I didnt go to Jungle Jims so It may be cheaper there.


Have you looked online at all? There are some brands that I can get for less online than at any store nearby, even with shipping included. I've bought stuff at petnetdirect.com and petfooddirect.com.

If you look on petfooddirect.com, also _definitely _check out coupon codes online. Just run a google search for "petfooddirect coupons" and you'll find a bunch of different coupon options. Last time I ordered from there I used a coupon that got 20% off my entire order!


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

No, I was promoting dog guides. I have learned what I know about dog food from people that give away dogs, not people selling dog food. 

While promoting what you sell is common on the internet, it doesn't include me.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Can you do better than Kibbles-n-Bits. Yes. Will it kill your dog? Probably not.

Disclaimer - I believe that a raw diet is most ideal for a dog. I also believe that domesticated dogs can survive and thrive on a variety of foods - even those that seem less than ideal for their species. Not everyone out there can afford or manage a raw/natural diet for their pets. I think dogs are omnivores - they CAN thrive on diets that aren't meat based. Lots of performance and long lived animals out there prove that every day. An ideal diet may be a primarily meat based, raw diet...but it's not the ONLY diet.

Feed the best food you can afford, that agrees with your dog. I prefer to not see corn or anything other than meat in the first ingredient position. If you can get to a feed store or a tractor supply, look at Diamond Naturals (make sure it says Naturals on the bag). You will be hard pressed to find as good a food for the money. Not a 6 star food, but a good one that many dogs do well on.

Also, don't just look at price tags and poundage. Many higher end foods require you to feed much less than "cheaper" foods, so the cost difference balances out. Higher end foods don't have as many fillers and are often much more nutrient dense than the kibbles-n-bits of the world. And keep in mind that price tag is not necessarily an indicator of kibble quality.

I can't stand dog food nazis  Read a variety of sources and opinions, then make your OWN decision based on your what works best for your dog and your family.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

FilleBelle said:


> What is "animal digest"? It sounds hideous, lol.


AAFCO definition: Material which results from chemical and/or enzymatic hydrolysis of clean and un-decomposed animal tissue. The animal tissues used shall be exclusive of hair, horns, teeth, hooves and feathers, except in such trace amounts as might occur unavoidably in good factory practice and shall be suitable for animal feed.

So basically it can be any animal from any source (road kill, euthenasia, etc etc) and can include every body part except what is listed. That includes all of their gut material, as well.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

lovemygreys said:


> I can't stand dog food nazis  Read a variety of sources and opinions, then make your OWN decision based on your what works best for your dog and your family.


I don't think "food nazis" are really an issue on this thread. I do think the general consensus has been to encourage her to get what she can afford, and to read about it and learn to make her own decisions.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

lovemygreys said:


> Can you do better than Kibbles-n-Bits. Yes. Will it kill your dog? Probably not.
> 
> Disclaimer - I believe that a raw diet is most ideal for a dog. I also believe that domesticated dogs can survive and thrive on a variety of foods - even those that seem less than ideal for their species. Not everyone out there can afford or manage a raw/natural diet for their pets. I think dogs are omnivores - they CAN thrive on diets that aren't meat based. Lots of performance and long lived animals out there prove that every day. An ideal diet may be a primarily meat based, raw diet...but it's not the ONLY diet.


That's a very "safe" response. Your answer sways one way than another, it's somewhat contradicting. I'm not bashing, it just seems you agree with everything yet don't believe everything. I could get into a protein vs. carb debate but I'll tell ya one thing - we haven't domesticated the carnivore out of the dog!! Just pick-up a scientific study on their digestive system. Even cats can survive on "cheap dog food" but we all agree they are 100% carnivores to the bone... 

I'd even disagree with you and say Kibbles and bits is just keeping dogs alive - barely.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

bully said:


> I could get into a protein vs. carb debate but I'll tell ya one thing - we haven't domesticated the carnivore out of the dog!! Just pick-up a scientific study on their digestive system.


Personally, I view canines as opportunistic carnivorous, or scavengers. Your correct that their bodies are designed for a primarily meat based diet. But I feel dogs can benefit from small amounts of plant material added for trace minerals and fiber. And in some circumstances grains and starchy vegetables can also be an asset. 

Carbohydrates provide energy that is metabolized quicker than fat. So it can benefit a dog that needs to up their supply of energy for a short period, such as for agility, herding or racing competition. I've even heard of people giving their dogs fruit snacks before a competition for the simple sugars. Lactating bitches can also benefit from grains to assist with milk production. It's not all dry cut.

And even the vegetables and fruits that are added to your bag of EVO, Instinct, or TOTW provide carbohydrates. Otherwise my dogs wouldn't of shown symptoms of carb withdrawal when I was transitioning them to RAW. 

As for the difference between dogs and cats, I judge that by their behavior. Cats are very finicky, they pretty much won't touch anything that isn’t meat. So they are consider obligate carnivores. On the other hand your wild or stray dogs are known for surviving off of a mix of trash, scraps, and rotting food. And believe me, they don't find half a hamburger laying around and leave the bread and lettuce behind.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> It was around $30, most of the foods at Jacks were over $20 for any size bag. I didnt go to Jungle Jims so It may be cheaper there.


...

If you're close enough to drive to Jungle Jim's, then you live close to me! I live in Hamilton, Ohio. We've got several Complete PetMart around here, and they sell many of the higher end kibbles as well as some frozen raw diets. It's where I get Evo. Superpetz also still has a small presence here and has some decent foods and treats including Natural Balance.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> Personally, I view canines as opportunistic carnivorous, or scavengers. Your correct that their bodies are designed for a primarily meat based diet. But I feel dogs can benefit from small amounts of plant material added for trace minerals and fiber. And in some circumstances grains and starchy vegetables can also be an asset.


Makes sense to me as well. I see good things from meat, fruit, and vegetables (in that order). But no place for grains at all. My argument in this thread is that this (K&B) food is not healthy at all. In fact, it's bad for dogs and a disgusting money making melting pot of waste and harmful chemicals flowing through a somewhat starved animals digestive system wishing it could actually find nutrients from.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

bully said:


> ven cats can survive on "cheap dog food" but we all agree they are 100% carnivores to the bone...


That's actually not true. Cats are indeed obligate carnivores, as dobmaniac said, but not because of finicky behavior -- it's because of their biology. They can't digest plant matter, even in the limited way that dogs cat, and they must eat meat. Also, dog food isn't required to have taurine, which cats get very sick if they don't have.

Being a carnivore isn't just one thing, it's a continuum. Wolves and other wild canids are obligate carnivores, like cats, but domesticated dogs are not. I would assume that natural selection among dogs favored the animals that were able to consume a variety of foods, and to scavenge off human waste. So domesticated dogs evolved to be able to digest plant matter. That said, they are still carnivores, with carnivore dentition and digestive tracts, and they thrive on a diet of mainly animal matter.

There's an encyclopedic overview here, that sums it up and even discusses dogs and cats.

ETA: I think maybe I should take back the "no food nazis" comment.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Humans can "live" on McDonalds for every meal of every day. If you work out a lot, live a low stress life and get plenty of water and sleep, you might even "do very well" on the McD's diet. Therefore, we should all eat McD's for every meal every day.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

No food Nazis here?


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> That's actually not true. Cats are indeed obligate carnivores, as dobmaniac said, but not because of finicky behavior -- it's because of their biology. They can't digest plant matter, even in the limited way that dogs cat, and they must eat meat.


Uuuuuuggghh!!

So why does cat chow list these ingredients - I'm proving my point - that they CAN SURVIVE!

poultry by-product meal
corn meal
corn gluten meal
ground whole wheat
rice
soy

Poor cats is all I can say. Not much difference between dog and cats according to them - must have poored millions into research and development. (same food different bag if you ask me)


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> No food Nazis here?


Me!!! LOL! (sort of kidding... but canine nutrition is a bit of a passion of mine).

I've done a lot of research on dog food and nutrition and what I've discovered horrifies me. Remember that things like "meat by products" and "animal digest" can and DO contain the body parts of EUTHANIZED PETS, which also includes Phenobarbital because it *does not break down when exposed to heat.* So, basically, you are feeding your dog the very drug used to kill other pets.

This isn't to say that there aren't good dog food companies out there or that EVERY dog food that lists "meat by product" as an ingredient contains the remains of Fido and Fifi... because the wonderful FDA refuses to allow those companies who use LEGITIMATE meat by products (chicken necks, etc.) to specify which ones. The only thing dog owners can do to be on the safe side is to call pet food companies and ask, or just don't feed food with questionable agreements.

And of course if you call, you will have to trust that the pet companies are telling the truth. TOTW (aka Diamond Pet Foods) has told many people that that particular line of foods that contain fish meal do not contain ethoxyquin, and recently it has surfaced that they DO actually contain it. Many people have no issues feeding foods that contain ethoxyquin, but I DO have issue feeding something that is a known carcinogen and is banned from use in human food products.

Personally, I feed my dogs a raw prey model diet and have seen a huge improvement in their energy levels, coats, poop, behavior, etc. I do not have an issue, however, with high quality foods like Acana, Evo, Wellness, Fromm, Merrick, Orijen, Halo, etc. I DO, however, believe that dogs are carnivores and all the fillers (grains, fruits, veggies, etc.) is simply going to basically come out the other end. (Note, my dogs get to munch on raw carrots because they like them... not because I think they're getting anything, nutrition wise, out of them).

I have an issue with foods like Ol' Roy, Beneful, Kibbles n' Bits, Iams (fyi they do tests on LIVE puppies where they cut them open to see how the food moves through their intestines), etc. Maybe your dog seems to be "doing just fine" on those foods now... but what about later?



Labsnothers said:


> If your dog is doing well on Kibbles and Bits, relax and continue it. I think the relax part may be both difficult and important. If you let what you read here lead you to doubt what you are feeding, your dog will sense your stress. You can worry your dog sick. Your dog can read your every emotion. If you let clever marketing get to you, you will pass it on to your dog.


Clever marketing? Clever marketing is the Beneful commercial that talks about how the food is so wonderful and nutritionally complete, when in actuality it's pure CRAP. You don't see the good food companies out there with all sorts of expensive commercials and ads. Why? Because they're spending all their money making sure their food is the best possible option for your dog... which includse making it safe for consumption, even if it means spending more money on actual ingredients (not cheap fillers) and non cancer causing preservatives.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

I dont care about marketing, commercials, or anything else really. What I care about and why i keep asking questions is because the food I had and apparently are feeding her is CRAP. I *thought* it was OK to feed her. I never would of known had I not started on this forum. Am I stressing? no. Am I worried? yes. Im not worried shes going to get sick and die from it (although i assume with continued use she could), Im worried about finding a good food for her that she can live a long life. Shes been on crap food 6 months, she doesnt need to live on it for over 10 more years. Labsnothers, you are becoming really sort of annoying to me.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

If you have a Costco near you, Kirkland is a really good food and its quite inexpensive. Since switching my dog and cats to that brand of food, their fur has become so silky. My neighbor switched her dog to it (she was previously feeding california natural which is believe is one of the premium brands) and her dog's coat has also become very soft and silky since she switched. 
People say that Kirkland brand is the same formula as Diamond Natural.
Its $25 for a 40 pound bag, and $12 for a 20 pound bag.

ETA I thought bil jac is a good food?


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> I dont care about marketing, commercials, or anything else really. What I care about and why i keep asking questions is because the food I had and apparently are feeding her is CRAP. I *thought* it was OK to feed her. I never would of known had I not started on this forum. Am I stressing? no. Am I worried? yes. Im not worried shes going to get sick and die from it (although i assume with continued use she could), Im worried about finding a good food for her that she can live a long life. Shes been on crap food 6 months, she doesnt need to live on it for over 10 more years. Labsnothers, you are becoming really sort of annoying to me.


The only point of this whole debate, for me anyways, is reading a post like this. People who "get it" do something. For those who don't, I hope they continually challenge themselves until it makes sense.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Do books still have the story of the Emperor' New Clothes? Bet he was annoyed with the little boys.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

I do believe you'd be the emperor in that scenario, stubbornly clinging to the "clothes" sold to you by slick talking advertisers and big budget monoliths like Nestle, P&G, and Hills.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Labsnothers said:


> Do books still have the story of the Emperor' New Clothes? Bet he was annoyed with the little boys.


Your analogies always seem to prove our point... :-/


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## brecken (Oct 25, 2009)

its not healthy at all!!!!!! corn is very very bad for dogs they cant digest it


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

No, but I know the premium foods have many small reps on commission.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> No, but I know the premium foods have many small reps on commission.


Why do you keep commenting when the OP already said that you are annoying her? Therefore you aren't contributing to the thread. All you are doing is annoying people.

Anywho... you have to do the best that you can for your dog. That means living within your budget. I have been there done that. Although I have also seen that the higher quality a food is the less they are going to consume so you really might spend less. I was feeding my dogs Beneful (slaps head) and was buying FOUR of the biggest bags a month for about $70 per month. I switched them to Blue Wilderness and that was only $50 for a bag that will probably last me a month. (don't know yet, just switched) 

Do what is best for YOUR specific situation, and don't feel bad for feeding your dog what you can afford. I can tell you shelters aren't passing out Innova Evo to their wards.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Cider on iams ate just over 2 cups a day at 23ish pounds. On orijen it was 1 cup a day. Paid more for the orijen.. but the bag lasted longer. We tried varying lower quality food while I learned about ingredients till she was about 1. Had more random vet trips in that time than we've had in the following 4 years.

Think I save on vet bills and on the food amount consumed per day. Granted both dogs have been on raw for 8 or so months now.. but it was wellness, eagle pack holistic and solid gold for a year and a half or so then orijen after that.


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## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> Next to Animal Digest it says (Source of Chicken Flavor) so im not sure.
> ~~~
> It was over $20 for any of the high end foods at the better pet store for smaller bags than i got. Even for wet food it was small cans for over $1 a can.


Take a look at the cost per feeding. 
Multiply the weight of the bag by 4. This will give you the approximate number of cups per bag
Divide the # of cups by the feeding guide # of cups. This will give you the number of days
Take the price of the bag and divide it by the number of days. This gives you cost per feeding. 
You'd be surprized. good nutrition really doesnt cost that much!


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

bully said:


> Makes sense to me as well. I see good things from meat, fruit, and vegetables (in that order). But no place for grains at all. My argument in this thread is that this (K&B) food is not healthy at all. In fact, it's bad for dogs and a disgusting money making melting pot of waste and harmful chemicals flowing through a somewhat starved animals digestive system wishing it could actually find nutrients from.


If you look at modern 'feral dogs' (like the Pariah Dogs in India) they subsist primarily on garbage. The Maned Wolf and most Foxes eat fruits and veggies as well as meat (the Maned Wolf actually eats 50% plant matter and cannot digest pure protein diets well). The canine digestive system is _optimized_ for meat, but _can handle_ vegetables/grain. Some some species of canine handle plant matter quite well.

Now, of course, there is a difference between 'being able to handle' and 'thriving'. And even though many dogs can eat grains and not suffer from it, many dogs CAN NOT, and most dog foods that use primarily grains in their ingredients use a lot of other garbage as well, so to argue over whether or not dogs can eat cheap food is kind of moot -- they CAN. No, it won't make your dog drop dead. But know it's only a small step up from the human waste and trash that those stray dogs in India eat. _They _survive too, but at what quality of life?

Low grain or no grain is best. The reason dog food companies like corn and wheat is because they are CHEAP, not because they are the best for dogs. Of course they did studies showing dogs can live on it -- but what does that prove other than modern dogs evolved as opportunistic scavengers as well as hunters and can tolerate sub-optimal food without dropping dead? Not the most impressive of results, really. There are plenty of studies that show that out of all the grains, _rice_ is the most digestible for dogs anyway. If those supermarket-brand dog food companies REALLY cared about providing the 'best' food while still wanting to use grain, they'd be using RICE, not corn. Just because their _ads_ go on about how much they care about your dog's optimal health, doesn't mean they're_ true._

And after the thousands of pet deaths caused in 2007 by shoddy food quality control by 'bottom line' obsessed food companies, I'd really hesitate to trust any company that aims for the lowest possible bar in it's food ingredients. What other standards are they trying to cut corners on to save a buck, I wonder?


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Pet food companies use corn instead of rice for the same reason Coca Cola uses high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar, corn is about as cheap as you can get.

Here are a few interesting pieces to read about corn, how it got so incredibly (and artificially) cheap, and the side effects of that artificial cheapness.

http://www.michaelpollan.com/article.php?id=41

http://st4tic.wordpress.com/2008/04...-and-sweetening-things-for-the-food-industry/

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1031/p17s01-lihc.html (this article also quotes Michael Pollan heavily...author of the first link)

http://fatknowledge.blogspot.com/2008/06/us-corn-consumption.html

Go to your cupboard, your freezer, your refrigerator, and count how many items do not have some form of corn. Whether it's in the form of high fructose corn syrup or modified corn starch which is readily recognized as coming from corn, or something less recognizable like maltodextrin, which is generally derived from corn starch in the US, the vast majority of anything you find pre-packaged has corn or corn derivatives in it. Yet we still, as a country, produce more corn than we consume every year, despite hundreds upon hundreds of ways it's being used.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Ayanla said:


> Go to your cupboard, your freezer, your refrigerator, and count how many items do not have some form of corn. Whether it's in the form of high fructose corn syrup or modified corn starch which is readily recognized as coming from corn, or something less recognizable like maltodextrin, which is generally derived from corn starch in the US, the vast majority of anything you find pre-packaged has corn or corn derivatives in it. Yet we still, as a country, produce more corn than we consume every year, despite hundreds upon hundreds of ways it's being used.


Hehe, I knew a guy who refused to eat anything corn-based (except fresh corn on the cob), and, honestly, he ate almost NO pre-packaged foods. I cut out HFCS a couple years ago, and that takes out a huge percentage of pre-packaged foods, too. Like bread....I mean, really? Why do they put it in whole-wheat bread?

It is true that there's plenty of corn being produced. I live among thousands and thousands of acres of corn fields. Soybeans, too. Nearly the entire state is planted in either corn or soybeans.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Of course they did studies showing dogs can live on it -- but what does that prove other than modern dogs evolved as opportunistic scavengers as well as hunters and can tolerate sub-optimal food without dropping dead?"

Furthermore, these studies are over a short period of time so they only are significant in terms of keeping a dog alive for a short time. I don't know, I fed my dog some Hill's i/d and t/d because I was in a crunch. A couple of days after, she had scratched her back, her belly and her tail raw. After a day back on her raw diet, she's fine. Hmmmm....could have been the corn ya think? 

These pariah dogs lived on the scraps that humans left in the garbage. It was still food. It wasn't already dead, diseased, overprocessed kibble.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

well right now she is still on chicken and rice as we had a vomiting fit, she only had 1/2 c kibble today as im slowly giving her the kibble back. Hubby gets paid tomorrow and then im going to find her some better food at the good store. Ill try not to pass out from sticker shock, lol. 

And also, as far as home cooking, Im still looking into it, but since ive had to make her chicken n rice for the last few days- it actually hasnt been "extra" work like i thought id feel like. She actually gets excited to eat! When i give her kibble she doesnt get excited at all.


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## justinser481 (Sep 30, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I was just wondering what they charge for it. I pay, after taxes, about $35 for a 35-pound bag, so around a dollar a pound. Diamond Naturals is, depending on the flavor (beef is cheaper for some reason), about $25 for a 40-pound bag. Just wondering what they charge in other areas.


Diamond Naturals Beef & Rice has a lower protein, therefore I believe its cheaper in their cost.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

FaithFurMom09 said:


> And also, as far as home cooking, Im still looking into it, but since ive had to make her chicken n rice for the last few days- it actually hasnt been "extra" work like i thought id feel like. She actually gets excited to eat! When i give her kibble she doesnt get excited at all.


But this isn't a a balanced diet for long term use. There would be a lot of research involved on your end to make a properly balanced cooked diet.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

If you like see this site for loads of information on using fresh foods to feed your dog as well as some tips on chosing a better kibble.
http://www.dogaware.com/
I bet a better kibble would be tastier than the junk kibbles. If not it is easy enough to add a little something to improve the nutrition and appeal of the kibble without worrying about dotting the i's and crossing the t's.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kathyy said:


> I bet a better kibble would be tastier than the junk kibbles.


Not necessarily. They spray the cheap kibbles with meat juices and stuff (I think this is where "animal digest" comes in?) to make them tastier. My cats go bonkers for Purina Cat Chow, they like it WAY more than their "good" kibble.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Don't some of the cheap ones use salt and sugar too? Just like most kids like a McDonald's burger more than a healthy dinner, dogs like the cheap stuff.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> I bet a better kibble would be tastier than the junk kibbles. If not it is easy enough to add a little something to improve the nutrition and appeal of the kibble without worrying about dotting the i's and crossing the t's.


My cats and last dog (I'm currently dogless, still) did/do prefer high quality food. They like the stuff that has a high meat content, specifically. So they don't really like food like plain Innova, which is a better quality food (in terms of additives and ingredient sources) but has grains and only 24% protein for dogs and 36% for cats. But they adore foods that have no grains, and over 40% protein. I think the meatiness makes up for the absence of spray-on fats and MSG-like additives meant to artificially increase palatability.

There are grain-free foods that rely too heavily on potatoes, in my opinion, so I always check the protein guaranteed analysis. (Examples are Acana, Now!, and possibly wellness core.) And I avoid things that have too many potato ingredients too high on the ingredient list.



Willowy said:


> Not necessarily. They spray the cheap kibbles with meat juices and stuff (I think this is where "animal digest" comes in?) to make them tastier. My cats go bonkers for Purina Cat Chow, they like it WAY more than their "good" kibble.


It wouldn't be such a bad thing if they just sprayed the foods with "meat juices" -- but I think it's much worse than that. I think they usually use fats and fat compounds, which is why the cheap foods are usually really greasy looking and slimy to the touch. They do use digests, too.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Not necessarily. They spray the cheap kibbles with meat juices and stuff (I think this is where "animal digest" comes in?) to make them tastier. My cats go bonkers for Purina Cat Chow, they like it WAY more than their "good" kibble.


I'd bet my shirt a dog would pick Orijen over dog chow in a test.


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