# Do purebred rescues encourage the BYB market??



## PattyU (Jan 16, 2009)

There is a link in another thread that really bothered me. I didn't want to try and take over that thread, so I thought I'd ask the question here. Do you think that how some (not all) of the rescues are run causes people who would otherwise adopt go to BYB or even worse puppymill dealers? 

The site mentioned that my county's (Franklin County in Ohio) shelter gives 400 purebreds to private rescue groups each year. They give them a significantly reduce license fee of like $15 to $20. The link states that rescues charge anywhere from $150 to 250. Now I've been looking on Petfinder and at various sites for a couple months now. While many of the rescues do charge between 140 and 200, it seems that some of the purebred rescue groups charge more than the ones that have mostly mixed breeds. How much do rescues charge for adoptions in your area? Our local shelter charges 115. The shelters in more rural surrounding areas are much cheaper, some as little as $40 or so. One rescue I was looking at was 375 plus a 100 that you get back once you spay or neuter. So that's 475 up front. I would like to consider a purebred because I would like have some idea what type of dog we are getting. My husband thinks the price is ridiculous, and isn't very keen on the idea of a home visit or post adoption visits by the agency. We don't have anything to hide, but he a private person. We understand why they want to see the house first, but it does make me a little nervous, too. I'm more nervous with the idea of visits after the adoption. 

So why are they charging upwards of $200-400? I understand that vetting may cost more for a private rescue group, but I've definitely noticed that the purebred rescue groups charge more. I can't imagine that the vetting a purebred is necessarily much more than a mixed breed. So are they charging more because they can? The rescue market allows them to charge more because they are a purebred rescue? To be fair, I've been mainly looking at a few breeds, so it may just be that I'm looking at the breeds where the rescues charge more money. I've been looking at Collies and Goldens mostly. 

Now I know BYB are not good. I agree they should be avoided. But it seems to me that the high price of rescuing doesn't do much to curtail the demand for BYB dogs. I've seen plenty of Golden Retrievers for 250 to 500 in my geographical area, not so many Collies. If you go to a BYB, the price is often less or at least not any more than a rescue (at least a purebred rescue in my area and preferred breed). A BYB will probably answer your phone call or email, and you get more history and control. Please don't jump all over me. I'm not planning to buy a BYB dog. I understand why theses breeders should not be encouraged. But still. I've contacted a few rescues and I am entirely unimpressed. It's tempting. Let me tell you. 

One Golden retriever rescue finally called me back. They were pretty vague on whether they have any young dogs. She encouraged me to fill out an application, and then they can tell you what dogs are available. There is an application fee of 10. They do not list any of their dogs online. The person I talked to said they had dogs, but she really didn't know what dogs were available. 

I called another rescue that has about 20 puppies listed on Petfinder. Based on the very strange conversation I had with the lady, I believe all the puppies plus many senior dogs are all on one foster home. She wanted me to email a different rescue to get their application to bring to her house. The email bounced back. She wasn't sure which puppies she still had. She hadn't recently updated the Petfinder list and apparently, there were too many running around to keep track of. She just told me to "drive on down. They are cute." She was "sure I would like at least one of her puppies." Ah....Yeah. I'll be right over. She was 1.5 hours away by the way. 

A couple other rescues just didn't respond to my email. There was absolutely nothing in my emails that would have made them think I wasn't an appropriate adopter. 

A couple of days ago, I emailed an application to a Collie rescue group. They haven't responded, but state that the process deliberately takes 2 weeks. The prices vary between $75 ans 350. They don't tell which dogs cost what. 

I've been looking on Petfinder and on the websites of our local shelters for a couple months now. I thought we found the perfect new family member, but I called before driving the 2 hours to get her and she was already adopted. Others must have thought she was perfect, too, because she was adopted within a day or two of being listed. That was over a week ago. She's still on Petfinder. Anyways, my search has made me question some things as you can see. 

I think it's great to rescue a dog. That's what I want to do. It seems very difficult and expensive to get a dog with an unknown background. 

What are your views? Maybe it's different where you are. My husband now thinks it would be better to just get a puppy from an accidental litter if rescuing is too difficult. I don't know. I've read that the optimal age to get a puppy is about 8 weeks, but the process takes so long that I doubt we could adopt a pet any younger than 13 weeks. 

Oh, and I want to repeat. I am NOT promoting BYB. Please don't start talking about how bad they are. We can just establish it up front that it is best to purchase form a reputable breeder or rescue. The fact is some people aren't going to spend the money on a puppy from a good breeder and may get discouraged when trying t rescue. 

I also appreciate people who work so hard for rescues. There was a rescue at Petsmart this weekend that I would love to adopt from. They only charge $140, so they aren't making a profit, and the volunteers seemed wonderful. They looked liked they really cared about their dogs. But they only seem to have Border Collies and Cattle dogs right now. These are great dogs, but not right for us. At this point, we will probably get a Golden or Collie mix from a public shelter. I didn't want to do this because of other negative things I've heard. 

I feel someone less committed to rescuing than I am would take the easier way out and buy a dog especially since the price can be about the same. Some people really want a certain breed, or don't want a certain breed. I think this is a problem. What do you think? Maybe it's different where you live.


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## KelliCZ (Aug 1, 2008)

The doberman rescue in Illinois charges 225.00 for adults, 300.00 for puppies and 100.00 for seniors - To me that is very fair the dogs are spayed/neutered, Heartworm tested and up to date on shots.
They treat many dogs for HW and other issues if the dog comes in with any prior to adoption. To me it's a bargin and much less than a dog from a BYB


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

I looked at rescuing, but the home visit and fenced yard requirement put me off. Granted, I think it's *nice* to have a fenced yard, but it's definitely not a necessity for *all* dogs. Sure, some dogs *need* to have a home with a fenced in yard. Many do not. Also, we're presently living in rather tight quarters. Yes, adding another dog makes it even tighter, but it's really not bad. 

In this economy, we decided to quit renting and save our money. Our rent used to be $700/month. (Which is still way cheaper than many areas of the country.) We bought a small used trailer for <$3k. Total after setting it up was still <$5k. It's on property owned by my mother. Our goal is to save enough this year to purchase a piece of land, or put a *significant* down payment on one. Then to be able to build in the next 2 years. Yeah, we're *temporarily* in a small, old trailer. A home visit would turn us down in a heartbeat. 

So, I started browsing craigslist. I found a dog there who needed a new home. We gave him a new home. I didn't pay a dime to his former owners, although I would have given a rehoming fee if they'd requested one. He's a purebred Cocker, healthy, housetrained and neutered. His only issues are some flaky skin and waxy ears and tartar on his teeth. Otherwise a clean bill of health. He adores fetch and the kids love to stand in the yard and throw his ball for him. It's a perfect match. 

Yeah, I looked at rescues. Once we build a house, I'll look at them again. But for this dog we got now, rescue wouldn't have been an option for us. It was the county pound, the newspaper, the flea market or craigslist for our options. Since the flea market is all BYB, that was out.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

The problem with some purebred rescue I've seen is more their adoption criteria. I understand that you want the dogs to have the best homes, but there was a rescue in Ohio that would only adopt within 45 minutes of the rescue and required an attached-to-the-house fenced yard with 6' or taller fencing, among other things, to even be considered. Then they had a long spiel about how they needed donations because they had so many dogs and such a low turnover. Wonder why?

That said, a $300 purebred rescue puppy and a $300 BYB puppy are not equal. Of course there's the whole issue of who you are supporting with your money, but also, rescue puppies usually have their first shots already, and may be s/n'd, which is worth a lot of money.



KelliCZ said:


> The doberman rescue in Illinois charges 225.00 for adults, 300.00 for puppies and 100.00 for seniors - To me that is very fair the dogs are spayed/neutered, Heartworm tested and up to date on shots.
> They treat many dogs for HW and other issues if the dog comes in with any prior to adoption. To me it's a bargin and much less than a dog from a BYB


The other IL Dobe rescue is $300 for adults and $350 for pups. Not saying that's unfair, but I see the OP's point...for a lot of people, if their choice is a $300 adult dog with unknown history vs. a $300 puppy bred by seemingly caring people, they are going to go for the cute little pup.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

I find the prices to be pretty bad around PA. The cheapest shelter I could find is $60, PAWS Adoption, which is where I adopted Hunter.

To me, it seems to be an unfair tradeoff. Get a "pure bred" dog from a shelter that's past is unreadable, might have phychological problems, and health problems for $300, or go to a BYB for a puppy that is 'brand new', most are health garunteed and registered, that equally cost $300.

Me personally, I love saving rescue dogs, but I think the above statement is what is really going through most peoples heads.

It's aggrevating to me as well because so many more animals could be saved if they just lowered the price! PAWS is barely full of animals, because they are all adopted! 

And I just don't believe that they need all that money 'to keep cost'. PAWS and other organizations that I have seen in Jersey charge low prices and still give you all the shots, spay/nueter, and free of charge check ups after adoption. 

I can understand wanting to deter those who aren't serious about a dog, but $300 is a little much, specially if it is a mutt....which I have seen mutts going for $250 before....

Just my two cents...


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

K9companions said:


> To me, it seems to be an unfair tradeoff. Get a "pure bred" dog from a shelter that's past is unreadable, might have phychological problems, and health problems for $300, or go to a BYB for a puppy that is 'brand new', most are health garunteed and registered, that equally cost $300.


Well this is what I think about this.....1. a byb might give you health guarantee but that doesn't mean they have done any health testing...usually it just for the fist 1yr for major problems like heart defects etc..not things like HP or ED...and they only offer to take the dog back and give you a new pup 

2. the 300$ can go into the byb pocket or the 300$ can go to a shelter so they can help other homeless dogs and cats

I have gone both ways...and I think in the future all my dogs will come from rescue....but I have no issue w/anyone who wants to go to a good breeder.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

K9companions said:


> Get a "pure bred" dog from a shelter that's past is unreadable, might have phychological problems, and health problems for $300, or go to a BYB for a puppy that is 'brand new', most are health garunteed and registered, that equally cost $300.


Not many BYBs guarantee health...


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

I'm getting into french bulldog rescue out here. I feel, also, what would you like on your conscience? To support rescue or support BYB's? 

Sure it can be pricey, but you know what you're getting with rescue. The "fosters" will tell you the dogs likes/ dislikes, any medical history, etc. A BYB will tell you what you want to hear.

But, nobody in rescue "makes money". It all goes to the dogs somehow or another.


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## PattyU (Jan 16, 2009)

LeRoymydog said:


> I'm getting into french bulldog rescue out here. I feel, also, what would you like on your conscience? To support rescue or support BYB's?
> 
> Sure it can be pricey, but you know what you're getting with rescue. The "fosters" will tell you the dogs likes/ dislikes, any medical history, etc. A BYB will tell you what you want to hear.
> 
> But, nobody in rescue "makes money". It all goes to the dogs somehow or another.


I agree with you. I would rather support a rescue. I'm determined to adopt, not buy our puppy even if it takes a while. My point isn't that people should go to BYB because I don't think they should. I just believe the ways some rescues work may lead people, who would otherwise adopt buy from BYB. The average pet owner doesn't seem to have very strong feelings regarding BYBs. "Back Yard Breeder" may not even be in their vocabulary. 

And it's not just the cost factor. It's the extra hurdles that could discourage someone from adopting. Adopting from a purebred rescue seems to be the most challenging way to adopt a dog. It's not more expensive than a BYB, but the financial costs seem comparable in many cases. With so many hurdles to jump through (fenced in yard, long waits for returned emails, home visits etc), I think many people, who otherwise would adopt, may end up with BYB puppies. One of the rescue web pages I looked at today was almost combative. So while I'm committed to adopting, I understand why people turn to BYB.


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## Sunshyne (Feb 5, 2008)

I've been looking at a Pug rescue fairly new to my state recently. Their "adoption" fee is $600 for a dog under 2 (!), and most have a health issue or two, some requiring monthly medication. Over 2 years old is around $400, and they also charge a non-refundable $50 application fee. Most, if not all, have come from puppymills so tons of training is involved with these dogs as well.

There is an awesome Pug rescue in New England, but they restricted their adoptions to certain states. They recently added MASS because they are inundated with Pugs, so I'll be going with them for my next dog when I'm ready.

By comparision, my local shelters charge maybe $75 for adopting a dog, but none have small dogs or Pugs, most around here are in rescues. I have found quite a few Pugs on craigslist in recent months, with no one charging over $100.

I understand the cost involved for rescues. I don't know _enough_ about them to comment truthfully, but my opinion of $600 for a not healthy, not potty trained 2 year old was a bit much to me.

After reading this over again, I have to add some things.

Before I got ("bought") Chloe, I was in touch with two rescues. Both required a fenced in yard and no kids under 8. My daughter was 8, and I don't have a fence! I have a nice house in suburbia where I am not allowed to build a fence, and also have almost an acre of yard (front & back). I wouldn't consider an invisible fence because I know the dangers.

Now, Pugs are special little creatures, I get that... but they absolutely do not need a fenced in yard. My Chloe gets tons of exercise walking around my huge neighborhood. The no young kids I could understand, but some of the requirements were totally out of control. 

I put in an application for a special needs slightly older pug and was denied because I don't have a fence. This dog didn't get around too well, so that put me off to that rescue. Another place came and did a home visit but because I am single (thus the sole provider of this dog) they denied me. That's absurd! I have excellent vet refrences, work FT as a Social Worker, and am allowed to telecommute two days a week, plus own my own home. 

The breeder I got Chloe from did vet checks on me, a home visit, you name it. But she knows Pugs - she didn't require a fence and is ok with kids in the home. It cost me just as much as if I went with the original rescue I contacted, and she came to me at 16 weeks from her mom. I waited quite some time for her, but it was worth it 

I do not in any way shape or form support BYB's or puppymills. However, I see your point in that some people would find it a lot easier to just walk into a pet store and buy a dog no questions asked. Is that the ideal circumstance? No, but I see how it happens, even to educated people.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Sunshyne said:


> I do not in any way shape or form support BYB's or puppymills. However, I see your point in that some people would find it a lot easier to just walk into a pet store and buy a dog no questions asked. Is that the ideal circumstance? No, but I see how it happens, even to educated people.


I feel your pain sunshyne....though I have never heard of a rescue dog being 600$ that is outrageous...but I have had trouble w/pug rescue before because of having other dogs and a child under 10.....

I think breed specific rescue especially for breeds like pugs are a little different ...you do have to spend a little more time....but there in lies the problem w/ society as a whole...we expect things to happen ASAP...we want it and we want NOW!

again I have no problem if someone chooses to go to a breeder as long as they have taken the time to make sure they know they are getting a quality dog

but if your not looking for any breed in paticualr then I think there should be no reason not to look around a few different rescues, check out the adoption fees...most of the time the money you spend at a shelter apposed to a breeder is going to be much much less


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

Shaina said:


> Not many BYBs guarantee health...


All the ones around Philadelphia are, I wouldn't accept less...



pugmom said:


> Well this is what I think about this.....1. a byb might give you health guarantee but that doesn't mean they have done any health testing...usually it just for the fist 1yr for major problems like heart defects etc..not things like HP or ED...and they only offer to take the dog back and give you a new pup
> 
> 2. the 300$ can go into the byb pocket or the 300$ can go to a shelter so they can help other homeless dogs and cats
> 
> I have gone both ways...and I think in the future all my dogs will come from rescue....but I have no issue w/anyone who wants to go to a good breeder.


I suppose I should have clarified that by being health garunteed, they ARE health tested. 

That's why it seems unfair for me to pay the same price for a dog that might have phychological problems and health issues, where a breeder will give you a puppy thats up to date on shots, health tested, and garunteed. 

Of course I would love donating money to a shelter. I donate randomly, but MAKING someone pay that money isn't going to get your animals adopted, which is kind of pointless in the end. 

Also, what really makes me mad is when an organization will say "There is no adoption fee, but we do require a donation of $200 dollars...." Are you serious? Lol. That's not a donation, I'm buying the dog! Hehe, sorry, just a little rant.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

K9companions said:


> All the ones around Philadelphia are, I wouldn't accept less...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All BYBs in Philadelphia do health testing?....How do you know this?


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

K9companions said:


> All the ones around Philadelphia are, I
> That's why it seems unfair for me to pay the same price for a dog that might have phychological problems and health issues, where a breeder will give you a puppy thats up to date on shots, health tested, and garunteed.


The way I see it, if the dog does have problems, it's foster family or the rescue organization can point it out to you. These people pay for vaccinations and medical care for the dogs, just as a BYB may or may not pay for vaccinations/heath testing/guarantees, etc. The papillon rescue I've been looking into has foster families that work with dogs and get them socialized, potty trained, any medical care, etc. I have no problem paying that much for a dog who has been taken care of to that extent. I feel like the rescue deserves it.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

pugmom said:


> All BYBs in Philadelphia do health testing?....How do you know this?


The ones that I have looked at, I asked them if the puppies are health tested and garunteed....I make sure to check the vet records and health papers.



ladyshadowhollyjc said:


> The way I see it, if the dog does have problems, it's foster family or the rescue organization can point it out to you. These people pay for vaccinations and medical care for the dogs, just as a BYB may or may not pay for vaccinations/heath testing/guarantees, etc. The papillon rescue I've been looking into has foster families that work with dogs and get them socialized, potty trained, any medical care, etc. I have no problem paying that much for a dog who has been taken care of to that extent. I feel like the rescue deserves it.


Yeah rescues deserve money, but I think they overdue it sometimes. And as I said, atleast around here, I can get equal care from a breeder for less.

I love rescues and think they are a wonderful blessing to this world...I just get a little annoyed at the prices, is all. I got Hunter from a rescue and he turned out to be the light of my life.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

K9companions said:


> The ones that I have looked at, I asked them if the puppies are health tested and garunteed....I make sure to check the vet records and health papers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What health testing did they do?......If they are doing what you say they do then they are probably not byb ...they are probably a reputable breeder...there is a big difference......But at least around here..You would be very hard pressed to find a puppy from a reputable breeder that was only 300$


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

K9companions said:


> The ones that I have looked at, I asked them if the puppies are health tested and garunteed....I make sure to check the vet records and health papers.


I find that very surprising...not sure where you are looking/what you consider a BYB.




K9companions said:


> Yeah rescues deserve money, but I think they overdue it sometimes. And as I said, atleast around here, I can get equal care from a breeder for less.
> 
> I love rescues and think they are a wonderful blessing to this world...I just get a little annoyed at the prices, is all. I got Hunter from a rescue and he turned out to be the light of my life.


Out of curiosity, what would you consider a "fair" price for a rescue to charge and still be able to feasibly run? Not all rescues are in the same situation as PAWS.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Shaina said:


> I find that very surprising...not sure where you are looking/what you consider a BYB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you shaina, ...I was trying to ask the same but you got to the point much better


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

Shaina said:


> I find that very surprising...not sure where you are looking/what you consider a BYB.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmm, maybe the definition for BYB isn't the same for us. BYB around here is usually a breeder who doesn't show their dog, may have dogs that 'aren't show worthy' but are still the breed. The parents are usually health checked and guranteed with no serious health issues and the pups are usually checked over by a vet. 

The parents aren't of any special lines but are healthy and may not be registered.

For me, a good price to run a rescue would be a range of $100 to $150 max. It should provide enough to cover cost but also gives EVERYONE a chance to adopt. (Not to mention they are probably also getting donations as well.)

I also think this strikes a nerve with me becuase I live near Philadelphia where crime and poverty is aparent. My family may not be rich, but I can and have been, giving a dog a pretty great home. I'm middle class but just because someone can't afford $250 for a rescue doesn't mean they can't buy dog food. A lot of people argue this point, saying if you can't pay the initial price, how will you keep the dog living? Dog food isn't that much, and in some areas you can get special deals. Leash and collar can be home-made and so can toys. Then they also use the price to deter 'bad people' from getting the dogs. Here in Philly, this is unrealistic. If a fighter wanted a dog, hes not about to go to a shelter to pick out a dog, or even to spend $40 to get a fighting dog. Hes going to go to a cheap $10 place, or steal a dog, to get an inbred fighter pup. It seems all they are doing is detering those who really want a dog.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

K9companions said:


> Hmmm, maybe the definition for BYB isn't the same for us. BYB around here is usually a breeder who doesn't show their dog, *may have dogs that 'aren't show worthy' but are still the breed*. The parents are usually health checked and guranteed with no serious health issues and the pups are usually checked over by a vet.
> 
> The parents aren't of any special lines but are healthy and may not be registered.
> 
> ...


IMO no one should be breeding dogs that are not ether working dogs or dogs that fit the "show" standard.....the purpose of breeding is to better the breed......what do you consider health testing?...taking a dog to the vet and getting a clean bill of health is not "health testing"

BYB to me are people that have 2 relatively health dogs that they decided to breed to make money or to have pups and sell the rest....Why would you want to give them 300$ per puppy .....It didn't cost them 300 to breed, they are not showing or working.......So most of that is profit right?...

100-150 is a decent price but it depends on the cost to the shelter...did they have to fully vax and s/n the dog?...did they have to treat it for worms or fleas...did they have to do any other grooming/maintenance to the dog?...they have to be able to cover there cost and make some money to pay bills and pay the staff

ok I'm at work right now so cant stay on....I will beck back on when I get home to continue


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## PattyU (Jan 16, 2009)

pugmom said:


> 100-150 is a decent price but it depends on the cost to the shelter...did they have to fully vax and s/n the dog?...did they have to treat it for worms or fleas...did they have to do any other grooming/maintenance to the dog?...they have to be able to cover there cost and make some money to pay bills and pay the staff


Most of the rescues I've looked at don't seem to s/n dogs under 6 months, and those are the dogs I've been looking at. So the cost isn't for s/n for young puppies. A few had s/n deposits added to the cost of adoption. 

I agree there has to be some administrative costs. They have to pay the bills. I don't think anyone would go into dog rescuing for the money. I have an issue with purebred puppies costing seemingly so much more than mixed breed puppies. I've seen many mixed breed puppies with adoption costs of less than $200, within the 15 to 180 range. The purebreeds are above $300. Why would vetting and other administrative costs be more for a purebred? I think it's because of market demand and that they CAN get more for the purebreeds. I was looking at a local rescue today that charges about 40% more for a purebred puppy over a mixed breed within the same rescue. I do not believe that the purebreeds all cost the rescue more to care for than the mixed breeds. Maybe it's for a good reason as with discounted older dogs, to subsidize the adoptions of mixed breeds. I can support that. However this doesn't explain why the cost is higher in those rescues that only have purebreds. 

I think they could hold the cost down if they wanted to, and it would help reduce the demand for BYB puppies. 

Cost is not the main issue for me. I was quite willing to pay the higher adoption fee because I wanted a certain breed. The process of adopting with some of the rescues is also intimidating. And it seems really hard to get in touch with a living person from the rescues because they are staffed by volunteers. I understand why it may take weeks to respond to a potential adoptive family, but that doesn't help the demand for purebred dogs. 

I just think a lot of great potential adopters would give up and buy a BYB.


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## Pit_Bull_Lady (Feb 4, 2009)

PattyU said:


> I was looking at a local rescue today that charges about 40% more for a purebred puppy over a mixed breed within the same rescue.
> 
> I do not believe that the purebreeds all cost the rescue more to care for than the mixed breeds.


I can't speak for other rescues, but one of the rescues I foster for has purebred and
mixed breed dogs, and we charge the same adoption fee for all of our dogs, pure or mixed, 
young or old--$150.00, which I think is reasonable.

I'm not familiar with any rescues where you are located, but I have never heard of any rescues in my area (Central Virginia) that do this (charging different adoption fees for purebred dogs within the same rescue), and I'm familiar with most of them.

I agree that it's not a fair or equitable practice, and I'm very disappointed to hear
about it....
.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

When you talk about "health testing" in dogs, that doesn't mean that a vet has seen them and they don't have distemper. GOOD breeders test their dogs for genetic diseases, such as hip/elbow dysplasia, genetic heart problems, eye problems, etc. (depending on breed). I'm sure that the BYBs you speak of do not do this genetic testing, or they wouldn't be able to only charge $300 for their pups.

I agree that some rescues have too high of requirements. I think it should be taken more on a case-by-case basis. Some dogs NEED fenced yards, some don't. Some dogs LOVE kids, some don't, some HATE kids. So there shouldn't be hard-and-fast rules for adopters. Unfortunately a lot of rescues don't work that way. I adopted one of my dogs from a city shelter with no adoption requirements, found one as a stray, and got the other from a friend that was moving....but of course if you're looking for a specific breed, that's not so easy.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I know with rescueing Mastiffs we put anywhere from 500-1000 in vet bills into each dog and charge a $350.00 adoption fee. Also Mastiffs (other than 5-8 month old pups) stay in foster for MONTHS, which drives up the fosters costs (which aren't reembursed other than vet care). 

Breed rescue is VERY picky about where the dogs go, how they're fostered and our rescue won't even allo someone to transport unless they're approved FORM volunteers. It makes it difficult, but te rules are there for a good reason.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

PattyU said:


> Most of the rescues I've looked at don't seem to s/n dogs under 6 months, and those are the dogs I've been looking at. So the cost isn't for s/n for young puppies. A few had s/n deposits added to the cost of adoption.
> 
> I agree there has to be some administrative costs. They have to pay the bills. I don't think anyone would go into dog rescuing for the money. I have an issue with purebred puppies costing seemingly so much more than mixed breed puppies. I've seen many mixed breed puppies with adoption costs of less than $200, within the 15 to 180 range. The purebreeds are above $300. Why would vetting and other administrative costs be more for a purebred? I think it's because of market demand and that they CAN get more for the purebreeds. I was looking at a local rescue today that charges about 40% more for a purebred puppy over a mixed breed within the same rescue. I do not believe that the purebreeds all cost the rescue more to care for than the mixed breeds. Maybe it's for a good reason as with discounted older dogs, to subsidize the adoptions of mixed breeds. I can support that. However this doesn't explain why the cost is higher in those rescues that only have purebreds.
> 
> ...


IMO no shelter should be adopting out dogs or cats w/out doing a s/n ....and if they are they should have to sign a contract w/the owners to come back and get it done by 6mo (but even that is iffy)...so the shelter is still paying for the s/n of a dog under 6mo

as to "charging" more for pure breeds...I don't agree w/that at all....but there are tons of shelters in the USA you are going to find some that may not be reputable...I would advise going somewhere else

Regarding price ...you are always going to find a flux in price depending on what area you are in ......Something that also might make prices higher or lower might be the size of the rescue...most breed specific rescues are much smaller the the local...spca/humane society...etc...a smaller rescue might charge more because they have less funds and less donations from the public....


I still don't understand why someone who knows why for buying from a byb is wrong would use this issue as an excuse ....if you want a pup and you have tried rescue and it didn't work out...then take some time and find a good breeder?...what is so hard about that?...is it a time issue?

Why are rescue or byb the only 2 options?


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## PattyU (Jan 16, 2009)

pugmom said:


> IMO no shelter should be adopting out dogs or cats w/out doing a s/n ....and if they are they should have to sign a contract w/the owners to come back and get it done by 6mo (but even that is iffy)...so the shelter is still paying for the s/n of a dog under 6mo


 I wasn't talking about shelters. I was talking about private rescues. It looks like most of the shelters are s/n before adopting out even if the dog is under 6 months. I don't know if young puppies are too young to s/n or not, but it looks like shelters are more likely to have the opinion that early s/n is okay. I was talking about the rescues. Here the county shelter gives the purebreds to rescues. The rescues are staffed by volunteers, and have foster homes etc. They may not have a vet on staff. It looks like many of the rescue's S/N contracts tend to involve a deposit. The adopter pays an extra deposit that he or she can get back once they've s/n at their own expense. The rescues cost more than the shelter dogs whether they are purebred or not. 



pugmom said:


> as to "charging" more for pure breeds...I don't agree w/that at all....but there are tons of shelters in the USA you are going to find some that may not be reputable...I would advise going somewhere else
> 
> Regarding price ...you are always going to find a flux in price depending on what area you are in ......Something that also might make prices higher or lower might be the size of the rescue...most breed specific rescues are much smaller the the local...spca/humane society...etc...a smaller rescue might charge more because they have less funds and less donations from the public....


 You must have misunderstood me. I don't always communicate well. LOL Like i said before, I'm talking about the private rescues, not the shelters. The shelter dogs aren't as expensive, may s/n, and shelters don't have quite so many hoops to jump through as some of the rescues. Our local county shelter gives all the purebreds to rescues. We have large shelter with over 250 dogs at any one time and also have smaller humane societies. I live in a populated area. Columbus, Ohio is the 14th most populated geographical area in the US when you consider all the suburbs. We have a lot of people and a lot of dogs. 




pugmom said:


> I still don't understand why someone who knows why for buying from a byb is wrong would use this issue as an excuse ....if you want a pup and you have tried rescue and it didn't work out...then take some time and find a good breeder?...what is so hard about that?...is it a time issue?
> 
> Why are rescue or byb the only 2 options?


Who said they were the only two options? I didn't. Since my quote is located above this comment, I assume you are directing this towards me. It's probably my fault for not communicating clearly. Earlier in this conversation, I already said that at this point, we are probably going to adopt a shelter dog instead of a rescue. I understand now that you thought I was lumping all adoptable dogs (shelter and private rescues) under one umbrella. I said I wouldn't buy a BYB, but I think many people, who don't know better could adopt and be good pet owners. 

If we purchase a puppy (instead of adopting from a shelter), I have a reputable breeder in mind. The breeder only breeds to develop their own show dogs, and do all the health testing etc. They only breed once a year if that and tell me they are considering breeding one of their bitches in April. They take the best puppy for themselves and adopt out the rest. They told me that for several years they charged $950, but may have a slightly higher price this year. 

Shelter dogs and reputable breeders are both valid options. I don't know if I would have even had as much of a problem with the purebred rescues if I didn't know our shelter was giving all their purebred puppies to them for $15 dog license fees. 

Obviously, many people buy puppies from BYB. Most of these people probably don't think buying from a BYB breeder is wrong. I'm not talking about myself. After looking at rescues, I think some of them could do more to reduce the demand for BYB.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

> Shelter dogs and reputable breeders are both valid options. I don't know if I would have even had as much of a problem with the purebred rescues if I didn't know our shelter was giving all their purebred puppies to them for $15 dog license fees.


Really? Wow, I wish shelters here did that! We pay the same amount to pull a dog from a shelter as an adopter. Still it wouldn't make that much difference in the costs of rehabbing a dog and getting it ready for adoption. Even if we get the S/N done at hte shelter it still cost us tons in medical bills, transport costs, and often behavioral rehab (nearly all the dogs need to go through some type of training). We also take the time to actually GO to people's homes and inspect them, call their referances, and we don't feed them junk food. We evaluate EACH dog we bring in too, to be sure they aren't potential biters and dogs with ANY bite history are NOT accepted. 

Why don't you actually contact these rescues and find out how much MORE they do for the dogs before they get adopted out that a shelter would.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Really? Wow, I wish shelters here did that! We pay the same amount to pull a dog from a shelter as an adopter. Still it wouldn't make that much difference in the costs of rehabbing a dog and getting it ready for adoption. Even if we get the S/N done at hte shelter it still cost us tons in medical bills, transport costs, and often behavioral rehab (nearly all the dogs need to go through some type of training). We also take the time to actually GO to people's homes and inspect them, call their referances, and we don't feed them junk food. We evaluate EACH dog we bring in too, to be sure they aren't potential biters and dogs with ANY bite history are NOT accepted.
> 
> Why don't you actually contact these rescues and find out how much MORE they do for the dogs before they get adopted out that a shelter would.


Thank you Carla...this is the point I was trying to get across LOL
I think there are differences between shelters and rescue....I cant speak for every one but there could be reasons that they have price differences.

as for the location issue...what I meant was that the cost of living is different depending on where you are so that may effect what is charged....ei I live in No VA which has a very high cost of living...so the adoption fee might be higher here as apposed to if I drove down to Richmond Va or Norfolk Va.....not the actuall population...LOL...Maybe I'm not communicating well ether 


and the only reason I asked about there only being 2 options...is because you said if people were turned off of adoption they would be more likely to go to a byb.....I just think that there are better options....but it is true that someone whom is not informed may try to go to a byb for a lower price

but byb vs good breeder is a whole nother thread LOL


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

I think it's also worth considering that while a rescue may not have put $300 into _your_ dog, they put $1000 into another dog that came in with health, behavioral, etc. problems. 

Bailey came from a rescue that pulls dogs (sadly, primarily young puppies) from animal control in a different part of the state. They house/vet/feed them and, every two weeks, transport them (a trip that takes a couple of hours each way) to the city and have an adoption event. I don't honestly remember what I paid (I think $200-250), but I think they spent a decent amount of money on Bales, not to mention the dogs they get back because an untrained four or five month old puppy is "difficult to handle" (there were two when I was volunteering that day).

At the end of the day, I just feel a hell of a lot better giving them my money than a puppymill/BYB. I hope that most people who buy from a pet store or BYB don't know better. I mean, I know people who have bought from either or both (a number of people, unfortunately), and, for them at least, it has just been from ignorance.

PattyU, I want to be very clear that I am not trying to talk you out of your specific (both great!) breeds, but wanted to point out that you can also get a dog through a rescue that fosters their dog, so you would have a good idea of what you were getting with a mixed breed dog, perhaps better than, for example, a rescued golden that hadn't been fostered. Again, I have no stake in this and totally understand why you and your husband may want to go the purebred route, but wanted to point that out.


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## Belili (Mar 1, 2009)

Yes, I do think that the policies of some rescues encourage the BYB market. From the potential adopters' POV, this doesn't bother me so much... it bothers me because of the dogs. The fewer dogs that a rescue adopts out, the fewer dogs that they can take in - and this means more shelter deaths.

IMO, the biggest problems are (1) ineffective communication, (2) requirements that are too stringent, and (3) requirements that are arbitrary.

(1) Why is it that so many rescues don't get back to people? This is a major problem. You're running a non-profit, and a non-profit follows almost all the same principles as a business. If a business doesn't follow up, then they aren't going to be successful. The purpose of a nonprofit isn't to make money, but they do have a measurement of success, which is the effectiveness of their operations.

(2) Why can't people that live in apartments or condos, people without fences, people with kids, etc. be good pet owners? I can understand why these situations need to be scrutinized more closely than the ideal, but do all dogs really need to have a fence? Is their quality of life really going to suffer that drastically from not having one? And shouldn't this be a case-by-case basis? A malamute may need a big fenced-in yard, but will a lazy newfie really care?

IMO rescues need to check for these 5 things: Will this person neglect or abuse this dog? Will he keep the dog inside or outside? Will he abandon the dog if times are rough? Will he get the dog adequate medical care? Will he let the dog run loose?

And, finally: Is this particular home a good match for this particular dog? And that's where fence versus no fence, kids, etc. come in. There are lots of dogs that would looooove having small kids around, and wouldn't give a flying patoot about a big yard. And vice versa of course.

(3) I'm really sick of the stupid arbitrary "personal feelings" of rescuers affecting dog adoption. I'm talking about the personal philosophies that really do NOT affect a dog's quality of life. Like I've heard of rescuers not adopting labs/spaniels/etc. out to people who plan to take them hunting - because they disagree with hunting. Well, so do I - but so what? Your job is to consider the dog's welfare, not the duck's. 

I've also heard of rescuers who won't adopt out dogs to people who won't let them sleep in the bed. My dogs do sleep in the bed when they feel like it (one of them almost always does, one of them almost never does) - because *I* like them to. Is a dog's life not worth living if they have to sleep in a dog bed or the couch or whatever? Where they can sprawl out as much as they want instead of being sandwiched between two people? And really, Mr. Great Pyr or Newfie rescuer, how the heck is a 130 pound dog supposed to share the bed with my 5'11'' self, my 6'4'' husband, and my lab? I'm sorry, I missed the sale last week on beds that are the size of Ecuador.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'll address this when I get home from work, unfortunately, I'm on my iPhone at work right now and can't.


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## CocoaCream (Jan 13, 2009)

I've been following this thread since it came up, but I was kinda lurking around not really posting any replies for a while. I finally decided to come out of hiding today, and this topic is of interest to me because my hubby and I are in the process of adopting a dog from a breed-specific rescue in our state. In answer to the original poster's question about whether the practices of some breed-specific rescues encourage people to buy from BYB's, I would say 'no.' At least in my situation, the obvious commitment to the happiness and well-being of the dogs in their care was enough to 'sell' me on the benefits of adopting from a rescue. But if that had not been enough, I also see alot of other benefits of adopting rather than buying from a BYB, even if the adoption fee is sometimes higher than the cost of BYB dogs. 

The following are some things that I consider well worth paying a reasonable adoption fee:
1. Having the dog's shots, s/n, dental and other vet work complete and up to date (very costly if you have to start from scratch with a new puppy!)
2. Learning about the individual dog's temperament and socialization from the foster home/rescuer (rather than a BYB who just wants to make a sale.)
3. Having the option of adopting an adult dog who is already at full size and has (possibly) already had some training in house manners.
4. Having the security of knowing the rescue's volunteers are there to support and encourage me as I embark on this journey with my new companion.
5. Knowing that I have been part of making life better for an animal that otherwise might not have had the chance to know the love of a forever home--which of course, is priceless!

IMO, if you really want to rescue a dog, you are going to find a rescue organization or shelter that is within your budget and that has adoption policies you can adhere to. But if a person wants to find a dog of a certain breed but isn't willing to sacrifice a little in the process, well, I suppose that's how BYB's make all their money!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

> (1) Why is it that so many rescues don't get back to people? This is a major problem. You're running a non-profit, and a non-profit follows almost all the same principles as a business. If a business doesn't follow up, then they aren't going to be successful. The purpose of a nonprofit isn't to make money, but they do have a measurement of success, which is the effectiveness of their operations.


Rescue people are STRICTLY volunteers, they don't get paid and have jobs they work to help support their rescue efforts. No they do NOT follow the same rules as a business, they are NOT here for your comnviniece nor to make a profit. They also have PERSONAL lives they need time for. So things are done at the rescueers CONVINIENCE. If you are looking to adopt from rescue, calling them or emailing will do NO good, fill out the adoption form TRUTHFULLY and AFTER they have done the background (checked your referrals and veterinarian) check they will contact you IF they feel you're a good candidate for the breed.

Rescues WILL be choosier because they don't ever want the dog to end up BACK in the pound or in rescue. If a family isn't the right fit for a dog, they will be refused PERIOD. In our rescue, we have a strict SOP we go by, volunteers are not allowed to put 'their' rules on an adopter, the ONLY reason to refuse is because a person doesn't meet the outlined requirements OR they are on a DNA list (Do NOT Adopt) because of something that happened before, they are known horders, or known for animal neglect or abuse.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

I don't think rescues are the problem. I think the problems are:

1) People want things NOW. Society is so focused on instant gratification.... I'm as guilty as the rest! I just sent in a puppy app to a breeder this morning and am sitting her checking my email over and over, and it hasn't even been 24 hours! Having a dog is a lifetime commitment, yet we can't seem to wait a few days/weeks.

2) Ignorance. People who truly know what a BYB is won't buy a dog from them, period.

3) Indifference, often driven by the almighty buck. People want a dog, but they don't want to spend money on one. If they REALLY thought about it, they'd realize getting a dog from a BYB is no bargain. 

Option 1: Adopt from a shelter. Get a dog that's vaccinated and spayed/neutered
Option 2: Pay a similar amount from a BYB. Dog may or may not be vaccinated, not spayed/neutered.

(I've not discussed other options, including adopting privately or buying from a reputable breeder).


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## BestFriends (Mar 4, 2009)

Well, it really depends on the rescue. A lot of rescues will purchase dogs from puppy mill auctions, which I don't agree with. It may save that particular dog, but it is only putting money back into the puppy mill market. These rescues, yes, they do encourage bad breeding. Another reason I don't like purebred rescues are that they only accept purebred animals! There are 4 times as many homeless mixed breeds as there are purebreds. They often provide a place for retired breeding dogs, which just encourages the breeders more. I don't care for purebred rescues that much. I prefer shelters and humane societies. No-kill shelters are only acceptable if the dogs aren't caged their entire lives. A peaceful death is better than the dog living its entire life in a cage.


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## drmom777 (Mar 1, 2009)

I speak from personal experience. Many people here may not know me, but some who are on other forums do. Pretty much every rescue around here has decreed my home unsuitable. I have a yard that is so heavily sloped it is unfencable,and I live about fifty yards from a busy road. In addition, I have a whole bunch of kids, one of whom was three the last time I was looking for a dog.

Perhaps you might feel that the rescues are correct, and that I should not have a dog--but then two dogs that really needed homes would not have them.

I have a Treeing Walker Coonhound, now approximately three years old, that we picked up when he was about nine months. He was an abuse seizure, and was a neurotic, battered, starved, parasite infested mess.He also had IBD. We got him originally as a foster. A local shelter picked him up at a southern shelter and did not know what to do with him. He pretty much wouldn't come out of his cage and cowered in the corner, shaking. It took three adults to load him into my van, and then about an hour to convince him he could go in the house. Now he is a happy, healthy, well adjusted family dog, loved not only by my family, but by the entire neighborhood, largely because no one here in New Jersey had ever encountered a bawl mouth southern coonhound before. Incidentally, he is also in exceptional physical shape, and no, we don't let him ruin in the street.

Our other dog is a Beagle, she is an illegal shelter transfer. She was adopted out of Newark by someone else, who couldn't handle her unhousebroken, destructive, heathenish self. She did not want to put her back in the kill shelter, so she offered her to me--with full disclosure of her issues. Being stupid and a softie, I took her. We love her, and she is much better now, but still a real pain.

Even now, with these two successful dogs, there are no purebred rescues around here that would see me as suitable. Sometimes I wonder if they really want to adopt dogs out at all.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

BestFriends said:


> Well, it really depends on the rescue. A lot of rescues will purchase dogs from puppy mill auctions, which I don't agree with. It may save that particular dog, but it is only putting money back into the puppy mill market. These rescues, yes, they do encourage bad breeding. Another reason I don't like purebred rescues are that they only accept purebred animals! There are 4 times as many homeless mixed breeds as there are purebreds. They often provide a place for retired breeding dogs, which just encourages the breeders more. I don't care for purebred rescues that much. I prefer shelters and humane societies. No-kill shelters are only acceptable if the dogs aren't caged their entire lives. A peaceful death is better than the dog living its entire life in a cage.


 
Hmm, there are NO retired breeding dogs in our rescue, never have been UNLESS the breeder dumped them off. 

Yes, we only accept purebreeds, HOWEVER my rescue works with a number of all breed rescues to get dog taken care of. 

True that rescues that buy at auction are not helping to stop milling, and in fact drive the prices up at auction (the PM people LOVE them), that's why you won't see our rescue at a PM auction, though we do help with PM SEIZURES.

Breed rescues if done right are not helping BYB, they are a necessity especially for high Euth breeds such as Pits, Rottweiler, Doberman and the various Giant breeds.

Yes,they are choosy about where dogs go, they are trying to be sure the dogs go to a safe, secure, loving, permanent environment. They have a much higher placement success rate than shelters because they can afford to have stricter adoption guidelines. 

To Dr Mom, 
looking at your record and depending on the bred you wanted to adopt, I probably would have approved you, rescues should take in the the WHOLE picture and not focus on just a couple of things. The rules can be bent for exceptional adopters.


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## Lounrox (Dec 23, 2008)

A rescue near my house says they charge 490-990 per dog and you have to agree to home visits before and after and when they see fit ( I dont mind that ) fenced in yard but the fences have to be a certin height, and you must agree to feed the apdoted dog the food they say for the rest of their life unless the vet rec another for a health reason and then you need to have that in writting... Not to mention other things some very understandable and others not so much. We looked into them when we were looking for a St bernard my husband has always wanted one. I really llike the idea of resc but thats just nuts to me. So we are thinking of a breeder for his dog. I still continue to look at the shelters for one but in the end we might get one from a rep breeder than a resc because of all the hoops. I think its kinda sad and keeps some dogs from having wonderful homes, but saves some from really bad homes. Its a doubble edge sword I guess you could say. The biggest prob I have of all is the height of the fence they req for a front yard, the city I live in wont allow it to be that high with out a ton of special permits and ok from them and those are hard if not impossible to get. So I have no choice I can not adpot from them.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I know who you're talking about, NOT the most reputable rescue, they've had judgemnts against them on the dog food thing (they can't require a person feed only certain foods). In fact, there's a whole website of horror stories about them, I know someone who adopted a Dane from them that had horrible problems that weren't disclosed.

The fence hieght requrements make sense to a point with Giant breeds (ours is 5 ft any type as long as it's sturdy).

Also, that fee is WAY too high, ours is 300.00, though we have been known to adopt certain elderly or Special needs dogs (the ones we ususally have the most $$ into) for free, it's just not advertised. I've laso arrainged a few private adoptions to approved adopters, though it's frowned upon, but if I don't a space, I'd rather do that with a dog I've already eval'd and an adopter I've alredy approved.

BTW, look at http://www.saintrescue.org/ if you're interested in a Saint. They have a FAR beter track record


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