# Weird things and fairness at dog trials



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

My boyfriend, who is a dog person basically through his relationship with me, posed some interesting questions to me last night regarding "fair" environments at dog shows.

For example, if dogs during an outdoor Obedience trial were doing their stays and suddenly something extremely weird happened (like a helicopter landing near the trial site) and some dogs broke, or stood up, etc., what would happen? Assume the class is split in half for stays and the first half did not have that weird event happen. I told him that "stay" means that the dog has to stay regardless of circumstance, but he pointed out that there might be some scenarios where most dogs would break their stay and in a way could be "justified."

At agility trials, the wind plays a significant role in how the trial goes. Say, for example, a strong gust of wind on a windy day causes a dog to be blown off of an obstacle (I've seen it happen). Every one else in the class had completed their run without this problem. Should the dog still have the chance to qualify? I told my boyfriend that I think it just comes down to the judge's discretion - some judges will let the dog repeat the obstacle and some won't. Still, he said, we as exhibitors pay a lot of $$ to go to trials, shouldn't we be reasonably guaranteed that completion of the course is possible once we're on the field?

Just some interesting thoughts. I kind of chalk it all up to "that's just how dog trials are" but he really thinks that there is a level of unfairness that in some cases needs to be dealt with differently.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

My initial thought (as a professional competitor that has won never lost a trail in his life [or won one, but that's besides the point!]) would be that those stuff are up to random chance, and random chance dictates that it's likely going to happen to everyone at some point.

So yeah, right at that moment it might feel unfair, but overall it's going to balance itself out.

I think?


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

RBark said:


> My initial thought (as a professional competitor that has won never lost a trail in his life [or won one, but that's besides the point!]) would be that those stuff are up to random chance, and random chance dictates that it's likely going to happen to everyone at some point.
> 
> So yeah, right at that moment it might feel unfair, but overall it's going to balance itself out.
> 
> I think?


I find this interesting, because my boyfriend cited his experienced playing team sports as a possible explanation for HIS attitude towards the issue.

It's true, though, it is up to random chance.. that's a good way of putting it.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

In obedience...proof, proof, proof and train, train, train for the weird stuff that may happen. If you practice and train only in your back yard or your favorite training facility, get out and train in all sorts of training facilities and outdoor areas with all sorts of distractions. 

I did a UKC rally trial in a place in MA called Dave's Soda (yup, you read that right) and Pet City. They had the ring set up right next to the can and glass redemption area. Talk about noisy...breaking glass, huge bags of cans being lifted in the air where the dogs could see them over the movable walls. The dogs who train there were used to it. I went and made Lars heel all around that area in the middle of the bags and the machines so he would get used to them. Is it not fair if someone has a run with no bags being hoisted into the air over someone who's run has 5 bags thrown up in the air and the dog freaks out. Maybe....but that's the way the dog cookie crumbles. That's the most extreme case I have ever seen but stuff like that is out there. 

Proof for your dog to stay if the dog next to you gets up and zoomies around the ring (I've seen that.) Proof your dog to still come to you in a recall if a dumbbell from the ring next door invades your ring. Proof your dog to be able to do an around turn with moving people right on the other side of the ring gate. 

Weird stuff happens and you have to train for it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

No no.. I'm not talking about proofing.. and my boyfriend wasn't either.. Zoomies, stray dumbbells, birds landing in the ring, etc. SHOULD be expected. And evaluating the trial site before the trial (like with the glass and bottle center) should help with site-specific stuff, too. I'm talking about things that are pretty much impossible to proof. Like, legit weird kinda stuff. Stuff that makes performance extremely difficult or impossible.

You can train your dog to run agility amidst thousands of distractions, but you can't really proof staying on the dog walk when a 40 MPH gust of wind comes their way. Yet I've seen dogs NQ because they got blown off the contact obstacles. 

I can see why it becomes an NQ under some judges, though.. because it turns in to a very slippery slope if you give one dog a second chance and not another.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I'm sorry...my bad, I misunderstood what you were asking. I think when stays were brought up...that's what I thought you were asking about as weird stuff and I went where I went. 

Freak things like 40 mph wind gusts are things you can't proof for. I too can see why I judge would NQ for that. I would guess an 80 pound dog like Lars may be harder to blow off a dogwalk than a 35 pound dog. Then there's the question of what happens when wind blows down bars right after your dog goes over a jump, Is that an NQ? I think you really take that risk of trialing outside...stuff happens. I have seen people trial in agility in weather (like downpours, lake like puddles) I wouldn't dream of because of the potential injury to me or my dog. If there are winds strong enough to blow my rottie off of an a-frame or a dog walk...I probably would scratch.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

At one of the shows I frequented in Wisconsin, the obedience trial was held in a barn like area, and there's is ALWAYS a horse show going on at the same time.

A horse got spooked one year and flipped it's crap right outside the door.

Several dogs broke. The ones that stayed were extremely unsure.

I couldn't blame a one of 'em. You can't proof for a spooked horse 



> Then there's the question of what happens when wind blows down bars right after your dog goes over a jump, Is that an NQ?


I had one judge NQ my run for such, and another that didn't (Strauss NQ'd himself right after, so it didn't matter xD).


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

You think wind is a factor at agility trials? Try disc! 

The barn where a lot of agility trials are held in my area has a resident squirrel. He usually makes his presence known during a run at some point during every trial. 
Once during a disc trial, a toddler wandered onto the field during Kit's round. 
Fair? No. But distraction training is part of this, so I'm of the opinion that the dog should be trained to ignore squirrels, toddlers, helicopters, etc. (I'm not saying mine is - just that it would be ideal.)

In the end, we have to remember that this isn't life or death - it's a game. Sometimes life isn't fair.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> A horse got spooked one year and flipped it's crap right outside the door.
> 
> Several dogs broke. The ones that stayed were extremely unsure.
> 
> I couldn't blame a one of 'em. You can't proof for a spooked horse


That's pretty much the kind of stuff I'm talking about. If there's a 1200 lb horse dashing through the obedience ring in a spooked frenzy, I'd be willing to bet that a LOT of dogs would at least stand up and get ready to move, if not break altogether.

I know that one time, the wind blew down a jump BEFORE Marge got to it.. but as long as she ran through the uprights, she still qualified.

I'd say afterwards is extremely subjective because you'll have some judges that say that the dog did it and some that say the wind did it.

MrsBoats, definitely agree about the perils of outdoor agility.. I have been at trials where they honestly should have been rescheduled or at least postponed a couple of hours (my last agility trial was in such excessive humidity that a dog collapsed.. I was happy with my decision to take my dog off the course at the 4th obstacle when I saw the heat was getting to her).



> In the end, we have to remember that this isn't life or death - it's a game.


I said that to my boyfriend, too.. nothing is really riding on the Q other than maybe a few bucks in entry fees.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> In the end, we have to remember that this isn't life or death - it's a game. Sometimes life isn't fair.


Which is why I don't see the big deal in letting the dog that has the 50 MPH wind gust run again.

It's just a game - so why not give the dog a chance to compete in the game under normal conditions, not ones that will blow him clean off the obstacle because he can't defy physics?



MissMutt said:


> I'd say afterwards is extremely subjective because you'll have some judges that say that the dog did it and some that say the wind did it.


I must not be understanding how the jumps in a trial are made. I can't wrap my head around how a dog can knock down the jump when he's already passed it. How is it possible that he jumped over it and is on the next obstacle and then the bar falls and it's blamed on the dog? How is that physically possible?


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Because it's not a team sport, and because the entire idea behind obedience is to keep the dog safe and under control in situations where great danger may exist (why bother with obedience training if you never need to protect dog or person just let them run free). If my dog is running full tilt at me because something scared the '@@@@' out of her, but doing so will put her in the path of an oncoming car... should I not care if she doesn't DOWN immediately when I tell her to mid-stride? I mean, it's an unusual situation you can't 'proof' for...


...but you can die for it.

The dog SHOULD be dq'd for failing the exercise. There are more trials. It doesn't matter how well the dog is trained, if he breaks during a trial, you just pick up the dog, smile, give him a hug because you love him regardless, and head to the next trial.

As for the agility, it isn't life or death... or is it? Consider where the idea of agility training came from? Every SINGLE agility obstacle was conceived on a military base, then in police camp, training dogs to "do or die" for their service....

of course my little papillon isn't going to 'do or die' for anything, and will probably mess up... but in the spirit of the game, (and as pointed out above, because it IS just a game) messing up is messing up, and means a fault.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

In my mind it boils down to sometimes you get a gift and sometimes you get ripped off, but in the end it is even. I have seen Judges, give a dog another run because of an act of nature or somethng beyond everyones control and I have seen judges refuse and NQ the dog, although that is rare. I think most judges do try to be fair.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Lars' uncle was mounted by a Newf during a Novice Long Sit at a trial where we were watching. Jerome stayed at first and then stood but didn't lash out at the Newf (good boy Jerome.) The judge was PISSED at the newf owner at had to tell her to retrieve her dog and then leave the ring. Jerome (and everyone else) did get a second chance on the stays and he qualified. 

Can't really proof for that either.... ~



KBLover said:


> I must not be understanding how the jumps in a trial are made. I can't wrap my head around how a dog can knock down the jump when he's already passed it. How is it possible that he jumped over it and is on the next obstacle and then the bar falls and it's blamed on the dog? How is that physically possible?


I would think if the dog was at the next obstacle...the judge would say "okay, wind." But, if the dog just planted it's back feet on the ground and the wind blew it down...then I could see a ?? being raised. I've seen Lars jump something think he cleared it fine and notice the bar down 3 jumps later. LOL And, that's inside.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

A friend of mine ran her Papillon thru a water logged Excellent Standard AKC course and the poor dog couldn't get thru the chute because of a large puddle that was holding it down. After the dog obviously refused the handler continued the course and after finishing the judge asked her to come back in the ring, the judge held open the chute and said "If your dog goes thru right now I'll count your run as a Q". The dog did it and got her Q


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Keechak said:


> A friend of mine ran her Papillon thru a water logged Excellent Standard AKC course and the poor dog couldn't get thru the chute because of a large puddle that was holding it down. After the dog obviously refused the handler continued the course and after finishing the judge asked her to come back in the ring, the judge held open the chute and said "If your dog goes thru right now I'll count your run as a Q". The dog did it and got her Q



That is very sweet, but an excellent example of mechanical error that the show should have taken care of. the dog could not possibly conquer that task. It's the same reason they don't ask teeny dogs to jump maximum heights. some could but it's not good for them, and most can't. It was something the ring steward or other show helpers should have noticed and taken care of long before a dog ran the course. It was probably up to the judge and he made a very honorable decision, but it's not the same as the a 'questionable' knock (if the bar falls as the dog lands, as opposed to the wind knocks down a bar when the dog is on the other side of the ring), the wind knocks a dog off the walk (an owner that would run in conditions detrimental to the dog has bigger problems than a DQ), or a dog not staying when told to stay because a truck backfired, etc.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yes, but here's the thing....when it perpetually rains (as it tends to do at certain trials in WI *cough*) even after you shake off the chute, the water repools. The large dogs plow through the chute and don't really notice any extra resistance. The toy dogs? Phbbbt. They just can't do it. I can see where the issue would be.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

That was the problem it was raining pretty hard at the trial, and the stewards would shake the cute off before each run but it was the third from the last obstical so it had about a minute to collect water while the dog ran.


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

Ah sorry, then it was basically a no-fault, but on the part of a small dog that can't physically do something, it isn't quite the same as 'won't' do something, or disregards a command. I can't move the barbell my husband has set up for himself either... if my life depended on it, I couldn't. Not my fault.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

I've never seen a retry allowed, but we've only been trialing about a year and a half.

Crazy stuff happens though...all you can do is hope hope hope that your proofing is solid enough to be generalized to surprises...

At one agility trial, a bird flew across the nose of an Excellent B retriever right as he exited the tunnel...range of maybe a foot...he jerked his head to the side then corrected his course but it was enough to get a runout and ruin a QQ toward his MACH...

Another trial, an EZ Up wasn't staked properly and a gust of wind picked it up and had it tumbling end over end along the flimsy snow fencing that made up the ring perimeter. That dog Q'd anyway, but if he hadn't I really don't think that judge would have allowed a retry.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The times you will often see a rerun allowed, Shaina, is if a dog is running and ends up qualifying, but for some reason the timer doesn't "scan" the dog. Usually the judge just has the dog run for time.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Yeah, that I have seen actually...was really just replying to the OP's question


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Ah. Didn't know if you knew that or not ^_^


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I have seen some agility re-tries allowed.. the most vivid one that I remember was a BC who snapped the weave poles in FAST. The judge told the handler that if she demonstrated that her dog could perform the obstacle, she'd get the points..


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Papilove said:


> Because it's not a team sport, and because the entire idea behind obedience is to keep the dog safe and under control in situations where great danger may exist (why bother with obedience training if you never need to protect dog or person just let them run free). If my dog is running full tilt at me because something scared the '@@@@' out of her, but doing so will put her in the path of an oncoming car... should I not care if she doesn't DOWN immediately when I tell her to mid-stride? I mean, it's an unusual situation you can't 'proof' for...
> 
> 
> ...but you can die for it.
> ...


This, but in the example of the horse, I would not fault my dog for getting himself outta there. DQ or not, at some point you have to trust the dog to make a judgement call in his safety.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Most "interesting" distractors that I have heard of...happened to a fellow training mate...not me, were a hot air balloon coming too low and firing up to get more altitude and a fire fighting helicopter dropping it's basket in a lake right by the ring. Both times, her dog NQd. Makes for a good story if nothing else.

Me....I don't have any excuses for my NQs....other than stupid handler mistakes LOL.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

lol I got a re-run once because my dog ran past the Frame because he was looking at the car that pulled up and stopped only a few feet away from the ring and right beside the frame. Ok, no big deal except for the 3 dogs that were left in the car alone, that were going ape sh*t bc their owner was walking away and they managed to start the windshield wipers lol. This all happened just as we were approaching the frame, Petie racing along watching the ringside show and missed doing the frame lol. Judge was kind enough to offer a re-run after the dogs had been removed the car. I honestly don't think Petie would been so distracted had they been there from the start of our run, as he typically doesn't react or lose focus by something like that.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

You encounter the same "weirdo" things at lure coursing events. There may be mechanical issues with the lure equipment that means you have to restart mid course. Someone's dog may get loose and run on to a course in progress. It sucks, but it happens. You can't really make all circumstances the *exact* same for every dog. It's kinda the chance you take as an exhibitor.


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